# Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story



## s90

Foreign nationals kill alleged criminals in Lahore, any details.

UPDATE: AS OF 4th Feb, 2011


Timeline: The Raymond Davis Case | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia




> Here is a brief outline on the recent major events that have taken place during the mysterious case of Raymond Davis:
> 
> Jan 26: Raymond Davis, an American official, shot two Pakistani men in what he said was self-defence in a market area in Lahore. Davis called for help and the second vehicle got into a fatal accident with a pedestrian and fled the scene. Onlookers gathered around Davis and took his footage and that of his bullet-ridden vehicle. Police came to the scene and took Davis into custody for a statement.
> 
> Jan 27: Raymond Davis is held by police authorities for the shootings. Different sources claim that Davis is not a diplomat and cannot carry any type of weapons. The US embassy confirms his employment as a technical adviser. However, police authorities said that Davis was held-up at gunpoint and reacted in self-defence.
> 
> Jan 29: US officials claim that Raymond Davis has diplomatic status in Pakistan and refer to the Vienna Convention. But sources said that Davis did not have diplomatic status per se. Davis is remanded in custody with Pakistani police authorities.
> 
> Jan 30: Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani does not comment on the Davis arrest until officials confirm his identity and status in Pakistan as a foreigner. Many media personnel allege that the vague circumstances surrounding Davis could possibly mean that he might be a CIA agent.
> 
> Jan 31: ABC News in the US and the Huffington Post report that Davis was associated with a security firm in Florida, which had a vague background leading to more reports of a possible CIA connection. The government has not decided to hand in Raymond Davis to US officials. Local lawyers call for a trial.
> 
> Feb 1: President Zardari announces that Pakistan will decide the fate of Raymond Davis while the US demands Davis is returned. Lahore High Court blocks any moves made by international parties to remove Raymond Davis from Pakistans custody. Interior Minister Rehman Malik reiterates that Pakistan will make the decision on Davis. Prime Minister Gilani says that US pressure will not influence the decision making process in the Davis case.
> 
> Feb 2: Interior Minister Rehman Malik states that Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport. A court extends Daviss remand in Pakistani custody.
> 
> Feb 3: US embassy states that Davis has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Feb 4: Pakistani government sources claim that Raymond Daviss diplomatic immunity appears to be dubious.


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## Fasih Khan

What Is It ???


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## s90

Fasih Khan said:


> What Is It ???



Its over news channels.

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## logic

US embassy staff goes on rampage in down town Lahore.

Eye witness say the person shot two guys then took their pictures and crushed various people on the busy roads.

Police being the most corrupt in the world has rescued the US Embassy Staff and is trying to spin the case.

Shame on Punjab Police. Shame on the Government of Pakistan.

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## Spring Onion

A US consulate Lahore official David today has killed 3 Pakistanis at Muzang Chungi Qurtaba Chowk today.

His claim is that a motorbiker was following him and he has opened fire in self defence.


However the locals are very agitated and asking for action against him.

He has been nabbed by people and handed over to police BUT he is shifted to some other place (probably he must have been shifted safe and sound to US base aka consulate) 

(US consulate has not yet confirmed it)


There are many things which need to be questioned

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## Developereo

Diplomatic immunity.

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## logic

US Embassy Staff goes on a rampage in Lahore.
Shooting dead two and then took there pictures and went on crushing various people on the road.
The corrupt police is trying there best to spin the story.
Shame on Punjab Police. Shame on Punjab Government. Shame on Government of Pakistan


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## rockstarIN

Sohni Dharti said:


> Diplomatic immunity.



Yes, maximum he will be called back..


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## HAK

wow, just when i think things cant get any worst!!!


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## logic

The person has killed in cold blood two people and crushed various others on the road.

Sine he is a US national he has diplomatic immunity to kill and slaughter the innocent Pakistani people.

Shame on Government of Pakistan.
Shame on Punjab Police.

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## Spring Onion

A US consulate Lahore official David today has killed 3 Pakistanis at Muzang Chungi Qurtaba Chowk today.

His claim is that a motorbiker was following him and he has opened fire in self defence.


However the locals are very agitated and asking for action against him.

He has been nabbed by people and handed over to police BUT he is shifted to some other place (probably he must have been shifted safe and sound to US base aka consulate) 

(US consulate has not yet confirmed it)


There are many things which need to be questioned

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## HAK

logic said:


> The person has killed in cold blood two people and crushed various others on the road.
> 
> Sine he is a US national he has diplomatic immunity to kill and slaughter the innocent Pakistani people.
> 
> Shame on Government of Pakistan.
> Shame on Punjab Police.



i'd say Shame on all of us!!

Ppl lynch two innicent brothers in sialkot, why not this SOB??

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## Leviza

This time people handed him to police 

if he went without any justice next time people will do justice on road like in other cases ........

ball in in gov court now

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## nescafe

wowwwwwww....this will happen more in pakistan...  trust me...it will happen more

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## logic

Government of Pakistan
Has sold the Pakistani People
US can kill how ever where ever when ever they want.

Zaradri and Nawaz must be calculating the amount of $$$'s they will charge for the entertainment of this Embassy staff.

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## Durrak

WTH!!!I hope government will punish him(as i know they will not)


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## nescafe

we have drones, almost weekly chopper intrusions, black waters and now this.... it will never end....


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## Fasih Khan

*Bloody Hell .... They're trying to save this SOB.

Enough Is Enough ... Throw these Bloody Sell Outs Out of Power.*

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## Ahmad

we have to wait to see the result of investigation.

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## Xestan

Why the HELL, people didn't kill that *ba$tar@d*!


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## DV RULES

we have not to jump over results, after some time scene will be clear, what happened in actual.

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## nescafe

those bike guys could have been ground intel tailing him. he recognized and shot them. giving a message to the pakistani intelligence / goverment , that beggars cannot be choosers.


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## Ahmad

nescafe said:


> those bike guys could have been ground intel tailing him. he recognized and shot them. giving a message to the pakistani intelligence / goverment , that beggars cannot be choosers.



internet is a lovely place.

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## Fasih Khan

Ahmad said:


> we have to wait to see the result of investigation.



*Any hope from today's Pakistani Rulers ?*

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## logic

The Evil Government of Pakistan get $$$ from US to line there own pockets. This money is not spent on people where as the people have to pay this debt of our corrupt rulers in BLOOD.

The only difference between the beggar on the street and Government of Pakistan is that the beggar begs in the name of the Lord where as GOP begs in the name of Pakistan.


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## ajtr

Sohni Dharti said:


> Diplomatic immunity.


Diplomatic immunity doesnt mean that one can shoot down host country people and everytime raise the flag of diplomatic immunity.

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## Pak123

LAHORE: Three people were killed when a foreigner, David, reportedly a US Consulate employee, opened firing and hit a motorcycle while escaping from the scene at Mazang Chock, Geo News reported.

According to details, accused David opened fire at people ridding on motorcycle. Resulting, both were critically injured and succumbed to injuries in Services Hospital.

Another motorcyclist was also injured when David while escaping hit him with his car. The injured has succumbed to his wounds in the said hospital.

Meanwhile, police have apprehended the accused and shifted him to Old Anarkali police station. Police have also recovered arms from his possession.

The accused has confessed of the crime, saying he opened fire in self-defense.

Foreigner kills three in Lahore - GEO.tv

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## Awesome

Sohni Dharti said:


> Diplomatic immunity.


In Pakistan... but can be tried in the US?

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## Spring Onion

Ahmad its not the first time Americans in Pakistan have killed Pakistanis and used weapons and fake number plates for vehicles. and we know what will be result of investigations by police atleast they are already covering up the Americans by saying the those killed were daku . its sad one should ask them if dakus or bandits have been seen roaming in Lahore main city areas ever?

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## Durrak

DV RULES said:


> we have not to jump over results, after some time scene will be clear, what happened in actual.



Okay but if we assume that they were not innocent so killing them in front of many people is ryt???


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## Spring Onion

BTW mod/s change the title the media was apologetic by using word foreigners.

Its American/s now proven in daylight why covering them by not mentioning their nationality ?

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## logic

First there are Human Beings and then there are Americans.

If a human being defends himself he is a terrorist but when an American kills someone its self defence.

Human being has no right where as a American has immunity.

This country has become a joke.

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## Ahmad

Jana said:


> Ahmad its not the first time Americans in Pakistan have killed Pakistanis and used weapons and fake number plates for vehicles. and we know what will be result of investigations by police atleast they are already covering up the Americans by saying the those killed were daku . its sad one should ask them if dakus or bandits have been seen roaming in Lahore main city areas ever?



ic, i wasnt aware of similar incidents before.


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## MyPakistan1947

nescafe said:


> those bike guys could have been ground intel tailing him. he recognized and shot them. giving a message to the pakistani intelligence / goverment , that beggars cannot be choosers.



Shut up already. Don't you have any shame to say this crap at a time like this.


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## Devil Soul

and we are the terrorist ....


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## Spring Onion

DV RULES said:


> we have not to jump over results, after some time scene will be clear, what happened in actual.



1. Many cases can be filed against these Americans 

A. Using fake number plates 

B. violating traffic rules

C. Above all Killing an Innocent man (if at all we just exclude other two persons killed by this american as thieves even)

D. Threatening Pakistanis, Media and police at gun point.


Are these American Blackwater staff????

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## JonAsad

One question:

what was he doing outside, alone? Specialy in these time.
where was is his security?

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## logic

Jana said:


> 1. Many cases can be filed against these Americans
> 
> A. Using fake number plates
> 
> B. violating traffic rules
> 
> C. Above all Killing an Innocent man (if at all we just exclude other two persons killed by this american as thieves even)
> 
> D. Threatening Pakistanis, Media and police at gun point.
> 
> 
> Are these American Blackwater staff????



Dear Jana do you really think that these charges apply to US national.
US nationals are super human beings unable to err hence the poor guys who got shot dead and various others crushed on the roads were all terrorist.

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## Spring Onion

MyPakistan1947 said:


> Shut up already. Don't you have any shame to say this crap at a time like this.



Hold your horses. he can be right.

we are proving to be losers here


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## Spring Onion

logic said:


> Dear Jana do you really think that these charges apply to US national.
> US nationals are super human beings unable to err hence the poor guys who got shot dead and various others crushed on the roads were all terrorist.



surely applies if we show some guts. havent we seen CIA chief running from Pakistan after we shown some guts and filed a case.

The citizens of Pakistan should file a case in the court against these American employees for carrying and exhibiting weapons against the law

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## Fasih Khan

Jana said:


> Hold your horses. he can be right.
> 
> we are proving to be losers here



*Jana But I'm On that Junction every other day, there are TRAFFIC Wardens standing Always. If he had any concerns he could have talked to them. Who has given him the Right to Shoot on his Will.*


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## Spring Onion

Glorious Resolve said:


> One question:
> 
> what was he doing outside, alone? Specialy in these time.
> where was is his security?



 yes one should ask what he was doing alone there but since his fellows immediately arrived in a fake number plated car for his support. which means they were up to something in the area


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## JonAsad

Fasih Khan said:


> *Jana But I'm On that Junction every other day, there are TRAFFIC Wardens standing Always. If he had any concerns he could have talked to them. Who has given him the Right to Shoot on his Will.*



Black Water instinct

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## Spring Onion

Fasih Khan said:


> *Jana But I'm On that Junction every other day, there are TRAFFIC Wardens standing Always. If he had any concerns he could have talked to them. Who has given him the Right to Shoot on his Will.*



That is what the media is saying that he did not even stopped when police tried to stop him but he exhibited weapons and run away

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## warrior_pk

Fasih Khan said:


> *Jana But I'm On that Junction every other day, there are TRAFFIC Wardens standing Always. If he had any concerns he could have talked to them. Who has given him the Right to Shoot on his Will.*



American passport he holds given him the right brother.this is not an isolated incident just so happens it happened in a busy place in a main urban city.things like these happen on hourly basis in tribal areas.where are all of us then all of our so called very robust media,truth is we are just a joke really as a nation and even as a country now.our blood is cheaper than water so the highest bidder claims the prize and people talking about diplomatic immunity well that is under certain rules and for certain people not for everyone.

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## W.11

do him some chitrol and he will tell all about black water and CIA black ops in pakistan.. nanga kerke maro in ko

---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------




Jana said:


> BTW mod/s change the title the media was apologetic by using word foreigners.
> 
> Its American/s now proven in daylight why covering them by not mentioning their nationality ?



any video madam, i wanna see this CIA terrorist

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## Fasih Khan

Damn Heck

Before aswell Americans are found on The Jail Rd doing Suspicious Stuff.


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## JonAsad

Well honestly this shameful and i am feeling hopeless now, He has killed three Pakistanis and he is going to get away with it 

Diplomatic immunity my A55, the mob should have lynched him right there


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## Leviza

Jana said:


> That is what the media is saying that he did not even stopped when police tried to stop him but he exhibited weapons and run away



They go on Pakistani roads like they go out in afghanistan all of them are always with guns.....and always in contact with thier bases or consulate if you wanna say....

soon time will come when people will take things in thier hand and limit these gora crimnals to ISB only..........or even further to dubai only coz thats they place they issues/process visas to Pakistanies so whats the point in having these consulates in every city of Pakistan


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## Fasih Khan

Aston-Martin said:


> do him some chitrol and he will tell all about black water and CIA black ops in pakistan.. nanga kerke maro in ko
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> any video madam, i wanna see this CIA terrorist



You bringing comic into it


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

some reports also say that he did this in self defense. . dont know what is the fact. . .


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## Leviza

Glorious Resolve said:


> Well honestly this shameful and i am feeling hopeless now, He has killed three Pakistanis and he is going to get away with it
> 
> Diplomatic immunity my A55, the mob should have lynched him right there



i agree it is hopeless now but people need to rise as zardari/nawaz/other political leaders are without any water in......................................................


Goray ko marna chiya tha logo ko ...wahan police thee us ko koi right nahi tha apni gun use karnay ka......


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## Developereo

ajtr said:


> Diplomatic immunity doesnt mean that one can shoot down host country people and everytime raise the flag of diplomatic immunity.



Unfortunately, it does.
I'm not saying it's good or bad; it simply is.

I don't know if diplomatic immunity applies to all US staff, or only to those above a certain level.



Asim Aquil said:


> In Pakistan... but can be tried in the US?



US can choose to extradite him back to Pakistan and let Pakistan try him.



Jana said:


> That is what the media is saying that he did not even stopped when police tried to stop him but he exhibited weapons and run away



If he pulled a gun on law enforcement, that raises a whole new set of charges, regardless of the 'self-defence' argument for the earlier killings.


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## Leviza

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> some reports also say that he did this in self defense. . dont know what is the fact. . .



its very easy to say i did this in self defense but wahan police thee he should have asked for help first......

*there is this law in USA and UK that even in self defense you cannot use more force ..... like if someone attack me then i cannot kill him i can just stop his actions against me....*

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## W.11

a gitmo should be opened in pakistan for all these american terrorists esp afghan veterans


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## s90

LAHORE: 
An American man shot dead two Pakistanis in a street in Lahore city on Thursday. The US citizen told police officials that he fired his pistol in self defence.

The American national told us he was driving his vehicle and stopped at a traffic signal. He saw motorcycle riders and one pulled out a pistol. The man told us he then pulled out his pistol and fired in self-defence, Lahore police chief Aslam Tarin told AFP.

Hes an American national. Hes in our custody and we are investigating.

A third Pakistani man was killed a short time later when a car from the US consulate in Lahore hit two pedestrians at the scene of the shooting, Tarin added.

One person died in the accident, Tarin said.

Television footage showed that a crowd had gathered at the scene of the incidents, setting tyres on fire in protest.

The US embassy in Islamabad could not immediately be reached for comment.

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## W.11

this american man will be nevertheless freed on zerdari's orders, he fears his master americans more than pakistanis, his diaper n condom is also american made..

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## warrior_pk

We should all understand now how the people of afghanistan must be feeling bcuz incidents like this are a common practice there.these fear ridden americans even kill the allied troops and later call it friendly fire..why just bcuz they so damm scared all the time that even when a fly moves their first reaction is to get scared shitless and shoot everything back to stone age.courtesy to this mentality the real terrorists have no problem reeling and alluring innocent people.a read sad day but for us now its just another one business as usual.

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## Fasih Khan

Any Video Link ???


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## GUNNER

*LAHORE, Pakistan, Jan 27, 2011 (AFP)* - A US consular worker shot dead two Pakistani motorcycle riders in a Lahore city street Thursday, senior officials told AFP, with the man claiming he fired in self defence.

"*The American national told us he was driving his vehicle and stopped at a traffic signal. He saw motorcycle riders and one pulled out a pistol. The man told us he then pulled out his pistol and fired in self-defence," Lahore police chief Aslam Tarin told AFP*.

Tarin said the American was in police custody amid ongoing investigations.

*He later added in a television interview that two pistols had been recovered from the motorcycle riders*, and said the gunman was a security official from the local consulate.

Another Pakistani man was killed shortly after the shooting when a car from the US consulate in Lahore hit two pedestrians at the scene of the shooting, Tarin added.

Head of the public Services Hospital in Lahore, Mohammad Ijaz, confirmed that three people had been killed.

"We received one dead body and two injured persons. Both of the wounded later died in the hospital," he told AFP.

*A second police official, Faisal Rana, said the American man in custody had reported that the two motorcycle riders had attempted to stop his car*.

"He fired on them in self-defence.... We have arrested the American. He is an employee of the American consulate," he said.

More than 100 people blocked the road after the incident by setting tyres on fire to protest against the killing, an AFP reporter at the scene said.

The protest later moved to picket the police station where the car involved in the incident was impounded

The US embassy in Islamabad confirmed the man involved was a consular official.

"*We can confirm he's a consular employee, but we don't know exactly what happened. There's a lot of speculation and we're speaking with the police to find out exactly what happened," US embassy spokesman Alberto Rodriguez told AFP*.

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## VCheng

Why we don't turn down rhetoric and conjecture and wait for the facts to come out as part of the investigation which has already begun? 

In the meantime, inflammatory statements help no one including the most affected: the families of the deceased. What is most important is to stand by them and help them if we can in their loss.

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## W.11

GUNNER said:


> *LAHORE, Pakistan, Jan 27, 2011 (AFP)* - A US consular worker shot dead two Pakistani motorcycle riders in a Lahore city street Thursday, senior officials told AFP, with the man claiming he fired in self defence.
> 
> "*The American national told us he was driving his vehicle and stopped at a traffic signal. He saw motorcycle riders and one pulled out a pistol. The man told us he then pulled out his pistol and fired in self-defence," Lahore police chief Aslam Tarin told AFP*.
> 
> Tarin said the American was in police custody amid ongoing investigations.
> 
> *He later added in a television interview that two pistols had been recovered from the motorcycle riders*, and said the gunman was a security official from the local consulate.
> 
> Another Pakistani man was killed shortly after the shooting when a car from the US consulate in Lahore hit two pedestrians at the scene of the shooting, Tarin added.
> 
> Head of the public Services Hospital in Lahore, Mohammad Ijaz, confirmed that three people had been killed.
> 
> "We received one dead body and two injured persons. Both of the wounded later died in the hospital," he told AFP.
> 
> *A second police official, Faisal Rana, said the American man in custody had reported that the two motorcycle riders had attempted to stop his car*.
> 
> "He fired on them in self-defence.... We have arrested the American. He is an employee of the American consulate," he said.
> 
> More than 100 people blocked the road after the incident by setting tyres on fire to protest against the killing, an AFP reporter at the scene said.
> 
> The protest later moved to picket the police station where the car involved in the incident was impounded
> 
> The US embassy in Islamabad confirmed the man involved was a consular official.
> 
> "*We can confirm he's a consular employee, but we don't know exactly what happened. There's a lot of speculation and we're speaking with the police to find out exactly what happened," US embassy spokesman Alberto Rodriguez told AFP*.



the question is, did this stupid american see them pointing guns to him or not???

how does he know that the guns were not licensed guns???

and how to prove he is not lieing???, if he has got witnesses


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## Devil Soul

since the two alleged/so called robbers are dead, so no one knows exactly what happened... what about the other innocent guy who was knocked down by the american while escaping? how is this guy going to justify the killing of the 3rd guy.... ( in american term collateral damage)

i seriously think he is a CIA

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## logic

Since he is a US national the Government of Pakistan will do the job of protecting the innocent US embassy staff.

Government of Pakistan will Thanks the US for the incident and will ask for $$$'s.

Even if this person would have killed Bilawal or Hamza Shehbaz or Hussain Nawaz he would never had been punished.

We live in a beggar state that is slave to the US.

Media and GOP will sell there moms if they have to in order to save this all important innocent American National.

I hang my head in shame for being a Pakistani.

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## farhan_9909

hang him and broadcast its video.

or demand afia for this man excuse

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## GUNNER




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## Frankenstein

you can kill in self defense when the intruder attacks you with a knife, else you wont get a chance


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## RescueRanger

Ahmad said:


> we have to wait to see the result of investigation.



What investigation?

1. Why was he carrying a weapon, why was he armed? 

2. Why was he solo when...


> U.S. officials in Lahore and Islamabad are instructed to restrict the frequency and to minimize the duration of trips to public markets, restaurants, and other locations.
> 
> Only a limited number of official visitors are placed in hotels, and for limited stays. *Depending on ongoing security assessments, the U.S. Embassy places areas such as hotels, markets, and/or restaurants off limits to official personnel.* U.S. citizens in Pakistan are strongly urged to avoid hotels that do not apply stringent security measures and to maintain good situational awareness, particularly when visiting locations frequented by Westerners.



^ The above is a excerpt from the latest warden notice issued by the Islamabad Embassy.

Now consider the following:


> Road Safety
> 
> The roadways in Lahore continue to improve, although the traffic in the city and the lack of highway traffic patrols have littered the streets with vehicular debris. Driving is also made dangerous by:
> · Typical lack of experience driving on the left side of the road
> · Poorly trained and unskilled local drivers
> · Pedestrians, horse carts, and cattle walking in the road without concern of oncoming traffic
> 
> *The majority of Consulate staff utilize the Motorpool drivers for daily driving. *The roads have limited markings and are poorly lit for night time driving. Because of this, driving at night outside the city is prohibited without approval of the Regional Security Office (RSO).




US Embassy S.O.P:



> General Safety:
> · Maintain a low profile and avoid wearing clothing that labels you as an American
> · Situational awareness and common sense are imperative for your personal safety
> · Avoid the appearance of carrying large sums of money
> · Avoid high-risk areas, crowds, and civil disturbances
> · Don&#8217;t be time and place predictable and always vary your routes
> · _*If you feel that you are being followed or threatened in any way, immediately procede to a safe place such as a government building or police station*_


https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=9210
Why did this guy open fire and breach protocol in such a manner?

3. Where was his PSD?

4. Why wasn't DPD: Diplomatic Police told about this person's movement as per protocol?


--

He will claim diplomatic immunity, they will recall him, no investigation will take place, i feel sorry for the innocent man crushed under the Lahore Registration Honda Civic.

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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Why we don't turn down rhetoric and conjecture and wait for the facts to come out as part of the investigation which has already begun?
> 
> In the meantime, inflammatory statements help no one including the most affected: the families of the deceased. What is most important is to stand by them and help them if we can in their loss.



The relatives of the dead refused to carry the bodies unless action is taken against the murderer.

What investigation : 3 Pakistanis are dead.

Americans violated the law, why they were carrying weapons against the law ?


Above all what if one of these Americans was shot dead by the crowd in self-defence as well against his indiscriminate firing ?? Would all the hue and cry over that by Americans would have been taken as inflammatory ??


or it would have been blamed on Islam etc etc ? ultimately on dead zia and at the end on army and ISI

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## Ahmad

RescueRanger said:


> What investigation?
> 
> 1. Why was he carrying a weapon, why was he armed?
> 
> 2. Why was he solo when...
> 
> 
> ^ The above is a excerpt from the latest warden notice issued by the Islamabad Embassy.
> 
> Now consider the following:
> 
> 
> 
> US Embassy S.O.P:
> 
> 
> https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=9210
> Why did this guy open fire and breach protocol in such a manner?
> 
> 3. Where was his PSD?
> 
> 4. Why wasn't DPD: Diplomatic Police told about this person's movement as per protocol?
> 
> 
> --
> 
> He will claim diplomatic immunity, they will recall him, no investigation will take place, i feel sorry for the innocent man crushed under the Lahore Registration Honda Civic.



i didnt know about the material you posted above, but you at least would agree with me that an investigation should take place to give us a complete picture of the incident.


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## logic

RescueRanger said:


> What investigation?
> 
> 1. Why was he carrying a weapon, why was he armed?
> 
> 2. Why was he solo when...
> 
> 
> ^ The above is a excerpt from the latest warden notice issued by the Islamabad Embassy.
> 
> Now consider the following:



He is US embassy staff probably CIA so he is off limits.




> US Embassy S.O.P:
> 
> 
> https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=9210
> Why did this guy open fire and breach protocol in such a manner?
> 
> 3. Where was his PSD?
> 
> 4. Why wasn't DPD: Diplomatic Police told about this person's movement as per protocol?



Same as above. 



> He will claim diplomatic immunity, they will recall him, no investigation will take place, i feel sorry for the innocent man crushed under the Lahore Registration Honda Civic.



Slaves do not have the same rights as masters poor guy.


----------



## VCheng

Jana said:


> The relatives of the dead refused to carry the bodies unless action is taken against the murderer.
> 
> What investigation : 3 Pakistanis are dead.
> 
> Americans violated the law, why they were carrying weapons against the law ?
> 
> 
> Above all what if one of these Americans was shot dead by the crowd in self-defence as well against his indiscriminate firing ?? Would all the hue and cry over that by Americans would have been taken as inflammatory ??
> 
> 
> or it would have been blamed on Islam etc etc ? ultimately on dead zia and at the end on army and ISI



Jana Ji: You make some fair comments that I do appreciate and understand. However, I am sure that all will be sorted out in due course and the matter will be resolved fairly and relatively quickly.


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## PlanetWarrior

He killed them for following him ?? Nowhere does it state that he believed that his life was being threatened by the bikers. Jeez he sure has a lot to answer for. If not in Pakistan then definately in his country


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## logic

PlanetWarrior said:


> He killed them for following him ?? Nowhere does it state that he believed that his life was being threatened by the bikers. Jeez he sure has a lot to answer for. If not in Pakistan then definately in his country



Sir if we consider this matter under US law then it might be painted as

An Pakistani ISI operative/ Terrorist/ any word to degrade a group of people ....... Opened fire and killed two innocent civilians. Then evaded police and crushed another person to death with a dozen or more injured by reckless driving. This rampage lasted for an hour or more with hundreds of people protesting against his actions.

But since he is a US National / Proper Human its perfectly fine for him to do so case closed.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Jana Ji: You make some fair comments that I do appreciate and understand. However, I am sure that all will be sorted out in due course and the matter will be resolved fairly and relatively quickly.



Sir this will be played down no doubt and victims will be paid meager amount of money.

But its time US should mend its way atleast do not commit such mistakes/crimes against Pakistani public. otherwise US will never understand why Pakistani public doesnt like it much despite many welfare projects.

Money can not buy sentiments and respect. thats what US should realise by now after so many mistakes.

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## RescueRanger

PlanetWarrior said:


> He killed them for following him ?? Nowhere does it state that he believed that his life was being threatened by the bikers. Jeez he sure has a lot to answer for. If not in Pakistan then definately in his country



The bikers were armed no doubt about it, they have recovered a Marakov 32. Cal from the scene belonging to the pillion rider. So it's very sketchy. 

If self defence is proven fair enough, i respect that but this should goto trial, *at least* for the vehicular manslaughter of the innocent biker during his escape. 

As for his designation "Technical Adviser" AKA "Spook" so we all know what's going to happen now.

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## W.11

PlanetWarrior said:


> He killed them for following him ?? Nowhere does it state that he believed that his life was being threatened by the bikers. Jeez he sure has a lot to answer for. If not in Pakistan then definately in his country



no, the USA democracy and justice is just for americans...


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> Sir this will be played down no doubt and victims will be paid meager amount of money.
> 
> But its time US should mend its way atleast do not commit such mistakes/crimes against Pakistani public. otherwise US will never understand why Pakistani public doesnt like it much despite many welfare projects.
> 
> Money can not buy sentiments and respect. thats what US should realise by now after so many mistakes.



I absolutely agree with you here Jana Ji. 

There are several important lessons for the US role in Pakistan in this unfortunate incident.

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## SpArK

*Three killed after shootout with foreigner in Pakistan​*

Three people were killed after a shootout between an armed US consulate employee and two Pakistani gunmen in the eastern city of Lahore on Thursday, police and witnesses said.

The foreigner, identified by the US embassy as a *consular employee in Lahore, was sitting in his car at a traffic signal when two men chasing him aboard a motorcycle opened fire.*

*The man returned the fire in self-defence, wounding the two attackers, who both died later in the hospital. Police said a consulate car that came to the scene later struck and killed a pedestrian.
*
Aslam Tarim, Lahore police chief, said in broadcast comments that the US national had been taken into custody at a police station.

Police official Omar Saeed had earlier said the man had opened fire in self-defence.

*"We are investigating whether it was a robbery attempt or something else,*" he said.

Pakistan is a vital US ally, but anti-American sentiment runs high in the mainly Muslim nation.

Three US Special Operations soldiers were killed in a bomb attack last year in northwestern Pakistan, where militants are very active.th foreigner in Pakistan



Three killed after shootout with foreigner in Pakistan - World - DNA


A robbery gone wrong...


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## RescueRanger

*He has been returned to the US Consulate in Lahore along with the murder weapon. *
- Police Sources.


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## logic

RescueRanger said:


> *He has been returned to the US Consulate in Lahore along with the murder weapon. *
> - Police Sources.



I hang my head in shame for being a Pakistani.


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## American Eagle

Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.

It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.

US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.

Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.

So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.

Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.
> 
> It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.
> 
> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.
> 
> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.
> 
> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> 
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.



Since he is a US national probably CIA he is perfectly legal to kill and crush innocent civilians on the road.

He evaded police and pulled his gun on the various police officers. He is perfectly fine to do so because is is PROOPER HUMAN with full human rights.

While the local shop keeper crushed to death by the rampage of the US CIA operative was a terrorist.

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## VCheng

American Eagle said:


> Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.
> 
> It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.
> 
> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.
> 
> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.
> 
> *So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> *
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.



No Sir, we are better than that. One cannot fight ignorance and absurdity with the same.


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## Aslan

American Eagle said:


> Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.
> 
> It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.
> 
> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.
> 
> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.
> 
> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> 
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.











I am sure that you are smart enough to understand what I mean.

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## LeGenD

When will Americans and Pakistani stop fighting each other? Too much blood has been shed already in these non-sensical activities. 

Are we allies or enemies?

I feel sorry for the innocent man who got crushed to death during this unfortunate incident.

As far as the American officials are concerned; They should be banned from moving freely on Pakistani roads on their will. And this official should be sent back to America.


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## Aslan

Also Mr. AE u have painted a picture of Pakistan that is of what you have been fed by your media, yes there are issues there is no denying that. But let me ask you this how safe are your own cities, not by the threat of terrorists. But people who are trying to rob and kill, so what do you imply every one living in US should do. Start carrying a gun I say, shoot who ever approaches him and then also run over people. No would be the answer. And that would be the right one, but you are so pathetic to defend one that even ran over an innocent man in the heist of getting away, just because he is one of you.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.
> 
> It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.
> 
> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.
> 
> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.
> 
> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> 
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.








Excuse me? Jana is a leading journalist, most of the people here are not keyboard ninja's we all do service or are ex-service, we know well what goes on what and where. 



> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.


Exactly and he breached the SOP that was designed for his protection and to avoid such incidents:


> The majority of Consulate staff utilize the Motorpool drivers for daily driving.


-Taken from the OSAC Lahore Security Report 2010




> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.


Diplomat's are provided police escort from the DPD, they are allowed to use bullet proof vehicles, purchase and use CB radios, Purchase and use ballistic vests and hire private security. 

*Why was this guy solo?*



> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.


Pakistani's Killed =3, American's Killed = 0. Please don't underestimate the power of sentiment. And DON'T undermine it. 



> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.


Where did you hear that Fox News? Please spare us the hyperbole, if you want to focus on facts then lets discuss the facts:


He breached the SOP

He did not heed the warden notice

He did not follow the Travel Advice laid out by the Dept. of State and BDS: https://www.osac.gov/

He fired in self defence ( to be determined)

He killed an innocent road user whilst trying to evade the angry mob ( Vehicular Manslaughter)

Either way he is Scott free, you can rest in peace. However the innocent motorcyclist who may be the only bread winner for his family, that son/brother/father will not be returning home to his loved ones today... What about them, will they see justice...

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## logic

LeGenD said:


> When will Americans and Pakistani stop fighting each other? Too much blood has been shed already in these non-sensical activities.
> .



Sir its not Pakistani fighting Americans its Americans killing innocent locals on the roads while injuring others in there drunken rampage.
We should keep the facts straight.

i am really impressed by the way media and police is now covering up NO MENTION of the BULLET PROOF LAND CRUISER and other Gangbangers that were with this drunk driver.


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## Spring Onion

American Eagle said:


> Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.
> 
> It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.
> 
> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.
> 
> *Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.*
> 
> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> 
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.




surely if Pakistan is combat zone then we should treat any American caught in any activity as combatant and treat him so.

As far as these murderer American officials are concerned one should question your US state department why your officials are not following the set procedure if they are so concerned about any possible attack on them.

Lastly stop your whining and false accusation by calling victims as terrorists without any proof.

Next time any yankee creating any such scene should be treated in the same.

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## LeGenD

logic said:


> Sir its not Pakistani fighting Americans its Americans killing innocent locals on the roads while injuring others in there drunken rampage.
> We should keep the facts straight.


Brother, you need to recheck this:

_The foreigner, identified by the US embassy as a consular employee in Lahore, was sitting in his car at a traffic signal when two men chasing him aboard a motorcycle opened fire.

The man returned the fire in self-defence, wounding the two attackers, who both died later in the hospital. Police said a consulate car that came to the scene later struck and killed a pedestrian._

We do not know the truth but things did go wrong between both the sides.

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## American Eagle

None of you who disagree with my remarks know anything more or less factually than I do.

Who among you was there? Who believes what they read in any newspaper?

Here is a more truthful headline:

*Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*

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## Aslan

American Eagle said:


> None of you who disagree with my remarks know anything more or less factually than I do.
> 
> Who among you was there? Who believes what they read in any newspaper?
> 
> Here is a more truthful headline:
> 
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*



Fair enough a brave US diplomat kills 2 terrorists. But what happen with the innocent biker he ran over, I guess he was guilty by default of having a brown skin, looking like a Pakistani and being in the way of the poor diplomat. I completely agree with you the man on the bike deserved to die, how dare he not move away from the car that charged towards him. Didnt he see the white man in it.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> None of you who disagree with my remarks know anything more or less factually than I do.
> 
> Who among you was there? Who believes what they read in any newspaper?
> 
> Here is a more truthful headline:
> 
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*



I am a shop keeper and just a few paces from the incident.
If this were to be on some lonely place then the media would have said that US forces killed three Al-qaeeda terrorist.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The motorcycle riders had enemity thts why he was carrying weapons nd was returning home frm court or something.....While other was crushed........Also r us citizens allowed to carry illegal weapons?fake plates,tinted vehicles,threaten police wardens n media?
If it keeps on going nd no justice is served we will soon see another tunisia!And justice on the streets.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> None of you who disagree with my remarks know anything more or less factually than I do.
> 
> Who among you was there? Who believes what they read in any newspaper?
> 
> Here is a more truthful headline:
> 
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*



Bloody bullshyt!

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*





This reminds me of a joke i heard a few years back. It's originally in urdu so some of it will be lost in translation... But here we go. 

A Pakistani man visiting New York walking down Central Park saw a rabid dog attacking a elderly woman. He picked up the nearest thing he could find ( a branch) and gave the dog two strong whacks and chased it away. 

Upon hearing of this brave and courage act, the local tv media interviewed this guy, and ran the headline... 

"Local Hero, defeat's rabid dog attacking helpless woman"...

During the interview they asked him, so where are you from? And he proudly replied, i am from Pakistan...

They quickly changed the title of the news clip to:
*Pakistani Terrorist, attacks local dog in Central Park...*

So you see Mr. Eagle, it's one rule for you and another for us.

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## VCheng

VCheng said:


> No Sir, we are better than that. *One cannot fight ignorance and absurdity with the same.*



Passionate arguers from both sides should read this message again please.

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## American Eagle

Point remains no facts are known as yet. Only made up allegations by writers on this site.

As for the alleged shop keeper you should go to the nearest Lahore Police Station and report what you did or didn't see or hear. Being near something alleged does not in and of itself make you a witness. You just work and live in the neighborhood.

There was a wreck on my street the other day. I did not see it nor did I hear it. Later when I drove home from work I saw the police photographing and cleaning up where two cars had wrecked into each other.

I have no earthly idea who was at fault, not does anyone on this site.

If a person on foot is chewing bettle nut, or hash, or smoking pot or shooting up on opium does that then make them an innocent traffic victum if they stagger into heavy traffic at a non-pedestrian crossing point?

Really this is absurd.

As for being "brown." Most good Pakistani friends I had when I lived and worked in Paksitan were brown. So what? Brown or white has nothing to do with anything...unless you are a terrorist or terrorist sympathesizer trying to stir up falsely racial anomosity and hatred?






logic said:


> I am a shop keeper and just a few paces from the incident.
> If this were to be on some lonely place then the media would have said that US forces killed three Al-qaeeda terrorist.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Pont remains no facts are known as yet. Only made up allegations by writers on this site.
> 
> As for the alleged shop keeper you should go to the nearest Lahore Police Station and report what you did or didn't see or hear. Being near something alleged does not in and of itself make you a witness. You just work and live in the neighborhood.
> 
> There was a wreck on my street the other day. I did not see it nor did I hear it. Later when I drove home from work I saw the police photographing and cleaning up where two cars had wrecked into each other.
> 
> I have no earthly idea who was at fault, not does anyone on this site.
> 
> If a person on foot is chewing bettle nut, or hash, or smoking pot or shooting up on opium does that then make them an innocent traffic victum if they staffer into heavy traffic at a non-pedestrian crossing point?
> 
> Really this is absurd.
> 
> As for being "brown." Most good Pakistani friends I had when I lived and worked in Paksitan were brown. So what? Brown or white has nothing to do with anything...unless you are a terrorist or terrorist sympathesizer trying to stir up falsely racial anomosity and hatred?



It happened in front of me and hundreds of other people.
We went to police station and protested but no one would listen.

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> As for being "brown." Most good Pakistani friends I had when I lived and worked in Paksitan were brown. So what? Brown or white has nothing to do with anything...unless you are a terrorist or terrorist sympathesizer trying to stir up falsely racial anomosity and hatred?










And what is the litmus test for being a so called "terrorist" could you enlighten me?

All i can say is praise the lord i live in Pakistan.

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## Aslan

@ American Eagle

Well sir you still fail to get the idea, no one here is denying the right of the diplomat to act in self defense, tell me one person who would like to go out and get killed. No one. 

But you cant deny the fact and turn the other way when confronted with the details. One of the TT here posted all the things an American member of consulate has to adhere to when going out in public but this guy was in defiance of almost all of them. Then you have him not only running away from the scene but killing another person in the process. I saw the interview of the people who were at the scene, and according to all of them this particular person had harassed them with his weapon. Now please dont tell me that they are all terrorists.

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## mjnaushad

American Eagle said:


> None of you who disagree with my remarks know anything more or less factually than I do.
> 
> Who among you was there? Who believes what they read in any newspaper?
> 
> Here is a more truthful headline:
> 
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*

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## Peregrine

American Eagle said:


> Here is a more truthful headline:
> 
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*


 *Grow Up*!!!!!!! Anyways two can play that game(But for that i will have to stoop low to your level)

*A Drunken American Diplomat Killed Two Innocent Civilians in Cold Blood and Crushed a Bystander Under His Vehicle While Trying to Escape the Crime Scene, Killing Innocent Civilians in Muslim States Has Become Americans Favorite Past Time in Recent Years*

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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Passionate arguers from both sides should read this message again please.



Sir if conduct of an American Army retired official = to juvenile souls on forum then you can guess the intellect level of most of the Americans and it summarises their childish actions in other countries .

Being victims' side atleast the juvenile souls have the right to be little sentimental but the killers dont have any excuse that too when reality is so clear

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## s90

[/COLOR]


mjnaushad said:


>



I see no relevance.


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## RescueRanger

s90 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I see no relevance.



You don't need to, he tried to make a point and it was well made. 

Many thanks,

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## Aslan

s90 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I see no relevance.



Its the way the media wants you to see what they want you to see.


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> Sir if conduct of an American Army retired official = to juvenile souls on forum then you can guess the intellect level of most of the Americans and it summarises their childish actions in other countries .
> 
> Being victims' side atleast the juvenile souls have the right to be little sentimental but the killers dont have any excuse that too when reality is so clear



Jana Ji: Please do not generalize. You do make an important point that shows why military minds need to be controlled and directed by higher civilian authorities at all times no matter which flag they are under!


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## American Eagle

Point remains no facts are known as yet. Only made up allegations by writers on this site.

As for the alleged shop keeper you should go to the nearest Lahore Police Station and report what you did or didn't see or hear. Being near something alleged does not in and of itself make you a witness. You just work and live in the neighborhood.

There was a wreck on my street the other day. I did not see it nor did I hear it. Later when I drove home from work I saw the police photographing and cleaning up where two cars had wrecked into each other.

I have no earthly idea who was at fault, not does anyone on this site.

If a person on foot is chewing bettle nut, or hash, or smoking pot or shooting up on opium does that then make them an innocent traffic victum if they staffer into heavy traffic at a non-pedestrian crossing point?

Really this is absurd.

As for being "brown." Most good Pakistani friends I had when I lived and worked in Paksitan were brown. So what? Brown or white has nothing to do with anything...unless you are a terrorist or terrorist sympathesizer trying to stir up falsely racial anomosity and hatred?






logic said:


> I am a shop keeper and just a few paces from the incident.
> If this were to be on some lonely place then the media would have said that US forces killed three Al-qaeeda terrorist.


----------



## logic

American Eagle said:


> Point remains no facts are known as yet. Only made up allegations by writers on this site.
> 
> As for the alleged shop keeper you should go to the nearest Lahore Police Station and report what you did or didn't see or hear. Being near something alleged does not in and of itself make you a witness. You just work and live in the neighborhood.
> 
> There was a wreck on my street the other day. I did not see it nor did I hear it. Later when I drove home from work I saw the police photographing and cleaning up where two cars had wrecked into each other.
> 
> I have no earthly idea who was at fault, not does anyone on this site.
> 
> If a person on foot is chewing bettle nut, or hash, or smoking pot or shooting up on opium does that then make them an innocent traffic victum if they staffer into heavy traffic at a non-pedestrian crossing point?
> 
> Really this is absurd.
> 
> As for being "brown." Most good Pakistani friends I had when I lived and worked in Paksitan were brown. So what? Brown or white has nothing to do with anything...unless you are a terrorist or terrorist sympathesizer trying to stir up falsely racial anomosity and hatred?



The point remains the Americans cannot see truth. There allegations are turned into reality where as eye witness are painted as speculators.


----------



## Ahmad

What has the interior ministery said?


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## VelocuR

I have seen white people roaming around freely in Pakistan and went to Mosque alone, what the hell?


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## IndianTiger

Pakistan must change its image there are always news about terrorism and firing.
its time to grow and solve the problem of people, pakistan have potential and talent both but at same time extremist inhibit growth of Pakistan.
so need to take rid of them.


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## SpArK

*U.S. Consulate Staffer Involved In Pakistan Shooting​*
January 27, 2011


A U.S. consular employee in Pakistan shot and killed two armed men Thursday as they approached his vehicle on a congested street in the city of Lahore, police said.* A pedestrian was also killed by a vehicle that reportedly was racing to the staffer's aid.*

A spokesman at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad confirmed that the staffer is an American who works at the consulate in Lahore, but could not identify his position.

Police said the American, who was not named, had been taken into custody following the incident.

The senior *superintendant of police in Lahore identified the two men shot to death as Faisan Haider and Obaid Ur Rehman, both of whom were reportedly riding motorcycles when the consulate staffer opened fire. Local media quoted witnesses as saying that the men had been "chasing" the American's car when the shooting began, and police said they had recovered weapons carried by the dead men.*

*Police officer Umar Saeed the two men were suspected robbers and that the American shot at them in self-defense and managed to alert colleagues who were in a vehicle traveling behind him. The vehicle, reportedly a Land Cruiser, hit a passer-by as it rushed to the scene. The pedestrian later died at a Lahore hospital.*

*Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.*

Given the tense anti-American atmosphere in Pakistan, a shooting on the streets of a major city involving a U.S. citizen could have serious repercussions.

Western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of militant attack. Lahore has seen frequent terrorist bombings and shootings over the last two years, though the city's small expatriate population has not been directly targeted.

*In the northwestern city of Peshawar in 2008, gunmen shot and killed an American aid worker as he drove to work. Suspected militants also opened fire on the vehicle of the United States' top diplomat in the city the same year, but she survived the attack.*

*Street robberies are not uncommon, and foreigners would be perceived as lucrative targets *in the poor country.

Lahore is a city of 12 million people in eastern Pakistan not far from the Indian border. The United States has a small diplomatic mission there.

While the facts of the incident are still being established, it may add to anti-American rhetoric in the country.

*Sections of the media are prone to fanning right-wing conspiracy theories that frequently feature armed foreigners roaming the country at will, violating its sovereignty. The United States is pumping millions of dollars in aid to the country, but many people still regard it with suspicion or outright enmity.*

U.S. Consulate Staffer Involved In Pakistan Shooting : NPR


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Diplomatic Immunity as always...i wish i could be a diplomat...


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## SpArK

> Alberto Rodriguez, a spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad identified the diplomat as Raymond Davis.
> 
> Davis has been taken into custody though no case has been filed against him.
> 
> AFP reported that the police said that the diplomat fired in self defense.
> 
> BBC reported that weapons were recovered from the bodies of the killed men although Reuters reported that the police was still conducting an investigation to ascertain whether the two men were robbers.
> 
> NDTV reported that witnesses claimed that Davis was held up by two men armed men. *Witnesses also said that after shooting the men the US diplomat took photographs of the shot men. The diplomat explained to bystanders in Urdu that he had acted in self defense*.




U.S. diplomat kills two men in Pakistan to avert robbery - International Business Times


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## Areesh

Even the previous governments of Pakistan were not much free from American influence but with this guy zardari as president and PPP along with it's allies in the central govt, it is really sad to say that Pakistan is indeed looking like a banana republic of Chacha Sam.






Anyways we have to give credit to Zardari, this guy alone knows how to kick as$ of 180 millions people.


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## Aslan

IndianTiger said:


> Pakistan must change its image there are always news about terrorism and firing.
> its time to grow and solve the problem of people, pakistan have potential and talent both but at same time extremist inhibit growth of Pakistan.
> so need to take rid of them.








Did u try to read the news before honoring us with your thoughts.

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## Areesh

SpArK said:


> *U.S. Consulate Staffer Involved In Pakistan Shooting​*
> January 27, 2011
> 
> 
> A U.S. consular employee in Pakistan shot and killed two armed men Thursday as they approached his vehicle on a congested street in the city of Lahore, police said.* A pedestrian was also killed by a vehicle that reportedly was racing to the staffer's aid.*
> 
> A spokesman at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad confirmed that the staffer is an American who works at the consulate in Lahore, but could not identify his position.
> 
> Police said the American, who was not named, had been taken into custody following the incident.
> 
> The senior *superintendant of police in Lahore identified the two men shot to death as Faisan Haider and Obaid Ur Rehman, both of whom were reportedly riding motorcycles when the consulate staffer opened fire. Local media quoted witnesses as saying that the men had been "chasing" the American's car when the shooting began, and police said they had recovered weapons carried by the dead men.*
> 
> *Police officer Umar Saeed the two men were suspected robbers and that the American shot at them in self-defense and managed to alert colleagues who were in a vehicle traveling behind him. The vehicle, reportedly a Land Cruiser, hit a passer-by as it rushed to the scene. The pedestrian later died at a Lahore hospital.*
> 
> *Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.*
> 
> Given the tense anti-American atmosphere in Pakistan, a shooting on the streets of a major city involving a U.S. citizen could have serious repercussions.
> 
> Western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of militant attack. Lahore has seen frequent terrorist bombings and shootings over the last two years, though the city's small expatriate population has not been directly targeted.
> 
> *In the northwestern city of Peshawar in 2008, gunmen shot and killed an American aid worker as he drove to work. Suspected militants also opened fire on the vehicle of the United States' top diplomat in the city the same year, but she survived the attack.*
> 
> *Street robberies are not uncommon, and foreigners would be perceived as lucrative targets *in the poor country.
> 
> Lahore is a city of 12 million people in eastern Pakistan not far from the Indian border. The United States has a small diplomatic mission there.
> 
> While the facts of the incident are still being established, it may add to anti-American rhetoric in the country.
> 
> *Sections of the media are prone to fanning right-wing conspiracy theories that frequently feature armed foreigners roaming the country at will, violating its sovereignty. The United States is pumping millions of dollars in aid to the country, but many people still regard it with suspicion or outright enmity.*
> 
> U.S. Consulate Staffer Involved In Pakistan Shooting : NPR





SpArK said:


> U.S. diplomat kills two men in Pakistan to avert robbery - International Business Times



And here comes more Amercan than American, More Russian than russians, More Bangladehsi than Bangladeshi, more Afghani than Afghani, more do......... aka Bharati....

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## W.11

American Eagle said:


> Lahore has become a site of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you name it.
> 
> It is absurd what some of you are saying without knowing anything factually.
> 
> US Dept. of State officials are "targets" of the terrorists.
> 
> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.
> 
> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> 
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.



so u mean the pakistani men who died were terrorists???


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## Aslan

SpArK said:


> U.S. diplomat kills two men in Pakistan to avert robbery - International Business Times



And the times forgot in their heading the manslaughter that he committed by running over the man on the bike.


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## SpArK

Areesh said:


> And here comes more Amercan than American, More Russian than russians, More Bangladehsi than Bangladeshi, more Afghani than Afghani, more do......... aka Bharati....



I only posted the news related and its not my comments.. Its what i usually do.. If you have a problem with that.. do the crying further.... I dont give a hoot about it...


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Self Defence WTF...
Need to invoke Legal SOPs for this person which could not affect the overall harmonious relation btw the US and Pakistan of course.


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## W.11

s90 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I see no relevance.



the black guy was termed a looter and the white guys were termed the finders

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## fawwaxs



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## Areesh

SpArK said:


> I only posted the news related and its not my comments.. Its what i usually do.. If you have a problem with that.. do the crying further.... I dont give a hoot about it...



Yeah yeah I know. You are sharing news and that's what you always do and blah blah blah.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Aston-Martin said:


> so u mean the pakistani men who died were terrorists???



Relax man, we all know that only retards pass up divine judgments and they come in every suite...!


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## SpArK

Areesh said:


> Yeah yeah I know. You are sharing news and that's what you always do and blah blah blah.



Thank you Areesh, i am glad that u didnt further venture ur frustrations on to me..


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## Areesh

SpArK said:


> Thank you Areesh, i am glad that u didnt further venture ur frustrations on to me..


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## mehru

American Eagle said:


> Point remains no facts are known as yet. Only made up allegations by writers on this site.
> 
> 
> Here is a more truthful headline:
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years
> *



If no facts are known right now then how you are claiming that your terrorist version is more truthful?


I think that we should wait for more details before we declare anything.

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## RazPaK

I'm surprised "Centcom" has not posted anything on this thread yet. Pakistani lives are cheap in the eyes of Americans. I'm sure we'll never know the truth behind the incident, since what actually happened has already been spun around. The government is probably working on some bs story to officially release a statement. In all fairness this American did break some laws, and should be taken to court.


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## Patriot

Regardless of the circumstances it is wrong even if it done in self defense.If diplomat was facing some security threat he should have called Police Hotline at 15 and i am sure they would have reached the spot very quickly considering that the area where this happened is near Police Buildings.Besides he could also run away.This is not a war zone we're talking about where everyone can do whatever they want to do.I hope justice is served and even if he goes back then death is avenged anyhow.There is a proper procedure if you're in danger.I mean if i as a Pakistani is facing some threat the first thing i would do is call Police instead of shooting the attacker myself and if i do that i will go to jail for murder.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> Jana Ji: Please do not generalize. You do make an important point that shows why military minds need to be controlled and directed by higher civilian authorities at all times no matter which flag they are under!



Seriously dudes , you kickazz , BTW saner the person bigger the mistake .. a simple law ..


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## Thomas

So far I have seen multiple accounts here as to what happened. Is it customary in Pakistan to jump to conclusions and condem before you know that facts? After all isn't that what you accuse other countries of doing to pakistani's?


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## W.11

why was the criminal handed over to the american consulate??, and why is he not being arrested

secondly, why he is being charged on american laws, this is completely rediculous?? he happened to do crime in 'pakistan' which is not governed by american laws, and he committed the crime to pakistanis and he killed three of them, so why is he not being tried by pakistani laws

does the govt prove that there is no jurisdiction of pakistani laws among american visitors and what ever happens even if they crime, they will be supported by american laws just as the repeated violation of pakistani soverignty by the drones and still our govt is deadly and criminally silient??


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Thomas said:


> So far I have seen multiple accounts here as to what happened. Is it customary in Pakistan to jump to conclusions and condem before you know that facts? After all isn't that what you accuse other countries of doing to pakistani's?



The guy jumped to conclusion and killed ordinary people, took the law in his hand, and his crime gets hidden behind self defense ...

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## Patriot

American Eagle the mere fact that you justify this murder pretty much shows your bias against Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular.I have seen your other threads where you spread bullshit and then claim that you unbiased.

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## LeGenD

This could be possibly a kidnapping attempt (as the riders were armed and got close to the American's car). Or the American was a trigger-happy douche. We just do not know.

Here;



> LAHORE: A US national shot two persons dead, while a third killed by car hit at Mazang Road in Lahore.
> 
> According to police arms were found from the deceased who were dacoits, ARY News reported on Thursday.
> 
> "Armed motorbike riders tried to stop the car of a staffer of US mission at Qurtaba Chowk on Mazang Road," police said. The American national with the first name as David opened fire at armed motorcyclists and killed two men on the spot. One of the deceased has been identified as Faizan Haider, while the identity of other man yet to be established. Another man, Abdul Rehman, was hit by the vehicle and killed in the incident.
> 
> According to Police the motorbike riders were robbers having criminal record at several police stations.
> 
> Police have taken the US man into custody.
> 
> A spokesman of the US embassy talking with ARY News expressed ignorance from the incident.
> 
> Meanwhile, Chief Minister of Punjab Shahbaz Sharif has summoned report of the incident from provincial police chief.



Source: American's fire, car hit, kill three in Lahore,1/27/2011 9:08:28 PM

I am more concerned about the tragedy of that innocent man (Abdul Rehman) who got crushed to death during the rampage activities.

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## The HBS Guy

The first and foremost responsibility or presenting facts to the world lies with the Pakistani govt. 

As long as the Pakistani govt. doesn't come up with an account of what actually happened, there's no point speculating.


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## Thomas

Patriot said:


> Regardless of the circumstances it is wrong even if it done in self defense.If diplomat was facing some security threat he should have called Police Hotline at 15 and i am sure they would have reached the spot very quickly considering that the area where this happened is near Police Buildings.Besides he could also run away.This is not a war zone we're talking about where everyone can do whatever they want to do.I hope justice is served and even if he goes back then death is avenged anyhow.There is a proper procedure if you're in danger.I mean if i as a Pakistani is facing some threat the first thing i would do is call Police instead of shooting the attacker myself and if i do that i will go to jail for murder.



I don't think it is very feasable to expect someone who is under fire to drive around and look for the nearest policeman.

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## The HBS Guy

Thomas said:


> I don't think it is very feasable to expect someone who is under fire to drive around and look for the nearest policeman.



Exactly, If I'm under fire and I have a firearm at my disposal, I'll just shoot without thinking for even a second.

Every human being in the world is allowed that liberty. It's called self-defence.

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## SpArK

Are the police, witnesses and the media lying?


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## GUNNER

American Eagle said:


> Anyone is a combat zone, which all of Paksitan has become, is entitled to defend themselves.
> 
> So, since everyone else has judged without full facts, I will do the same.
> 
> Innocent by reason of self defense from attack by terrorists who were shouting heretical epthets at the American Diplomat as they charged him with drawn guns.



Dear sir, 
while i can understand you defence of your countryman, i hope you don't get into generalization of this sort. Combat zone you say? Pakistan is anything but. While terrorist attacks do happen, it's not an everyday affair. And it's certainly no Lebanon of 80's. 

The facts known so far are this... The US official, Mr Davis, claims he was followed by two persons on a motor bike who tried to stop him at a traffic signal, one of them carrying a gun. He says he shot back in defence, killing both. One of these men received four shots on his back. The other three in his back and one his side. Eye-witnesses confirm that there were two persons on bike and one of them had a pistol on him. They also say that they were shot while they were trying to escape. That explains the shots received on their backs. The front panel of the car shows five bullet holes. 

The question is Why would he fire on them if the threat had been neutralized? 

Why was he alone and in a civil car?


But that has to be cleared by the inquiry. 


What is clearly not self-defence was the third person killed by the consulate vehicle when it violated the one-way traffic rule and hit several vehicles before hitting the man on his bike. He was a trader. 

The person behind the wheels should be put behind bars for this. This was clear murder.


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## The HBS Guy

Patriot said:


> American Eagle the mere fact that you justifies this murder pretty much shows your bias against Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular.



What you're saying is this:

If someone shoots at you, put your hand in your pocket, take out your cell phone, dial the number of the police, wait for someone to pick up the call, then tell them about your location and the exact nature of the problem. 

This whole sequence of events can take anywhere between 15-30 seconds and add another 3-5 seconds if the phone is on autolock. 

And in those 15-30 seconds, the attacker would just shoot you and run away.

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## W.11

Patriot said:


> American Eagle the mere fact that you justifies this murder pretty much shows your bias against Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular.



and these people are in american military


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## RescueRanger

Thomas said:


> So far I have seen multiple accounts here as to what happened. Is it customary in Pakistan to jump to conclusions and condem before you know that facts? After all isn't that what you accuse other countries of doing to pakistani's?



Get of your high horse. 

8 Bullet wounds to the rear of the 1st Rider

4 Bullet wounds to t
he rear of the pillion + 1 to the head. 

( How is shooting someone in the back "self defence"...They were escaping).




> Is it customary in Pakistan to jump to conclusions


And this is unique to Pakistan how? 



> condem before you know that facts?


Neither do you, so we can cut the crap.

Facts we do know...

1. He breached SOP
2. *He was not allowed nor authorized to carry weapons*, neither did the American Consulate request a special permit from the Min. Interior for any such permission - CCPO Lahore
3. He is a Security Investigator at the Lahore Consulate.
4. CCPO has said that if he is not covered under diplomatic immunity then they will be lodging a "Murder" case 
5. The civic Davis was driving *was not US consulate property* but owned by Sohial Raza from Gulberg.
6 . T*he Land Cruiser that killed the innocent motorcyclist Registration: LZ 697 - Was using a fake registration plate.* -CCPO Lahore

7. *Onus of Evidence is on the accused if he claims Self Defence. *
8. Under the international convention if a diplomat kills someone due to his or her negligence ( he or she is not just sent off scott free). 
Example:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...er-murder-in-five-star-London-hotel-room.html

9. Breach of Protocol - No information was sent to DPD of his movement.

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## flameboard

The Hindu : News / International : Police: U.S. official in Pakistan shootout





The U.S. Embassy said an American employee was involved in the incident in Lahore, but could not confirm details.

A U.S. consular employee shot and killed two gunmen as they approached his vehicle in a congested street in Pakistan on Thursday, police said. A pedestrian was also killed by a speeding American car trying to help, an officer said.

The U.S. Embassy said an American employee was involved in the incident in Lahore, but could not confirm details.

Police officer Umar Saeed said the men were suspected robbers, but provided no evidence to back up the statement. He said the American, who was not identified, shot at the men in self-defence.

Western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of militant attack. Lahore has seen frequent terrorist bombings and shootings over the last two years, though the city&#8217;s small expatriate population has not been directly targeted.

Mr. Saeed said the American was being held by police following the incident.

He said the American shot both men as they approached the vehicle on a motorbike. Mr. Saeed said the man managed to alert colleagues who were in a car behind him. He said that the car hit a passer-by as it rushed to the scene. The hit passer-by later died at the hospital.

Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American&#8217;s car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.

In the north-western city of Peshawar in 2008, gunmen shot and killed an American aid worker as he drove to work. Suspected militants also opened fire on the vehicle of the United States&#8217; top diplomat in the city the same year, but she survived the attack.

Street robberies are not uncommon, and foreigners would be perceived as lucrative targets in the poor country.

Lahore is a city of 12 million people in eastern Pakistan not far from the Indian border. The United States has a small diplomatic mission there.

While the facts of the incident are still being established, it may add to anti-American rhetoric in the country.

Sections of the media are prone to fanning right-wing conspiracy theories that frequently feature armed foreigners roaming the country at will, violating its sovereignty. The United States is pumping millions of dollars in aid to the country, but many people still regard it with suspicion or outright enmity.

Keywords: Pakistan shootout, US consular employee involvement, self defence, terrorist bombings



*If they don't take action against this guy, extra judicial killings are going to be exercised on American employees in Pakistan by the public.* Remember what happened when criminals were getting away? Pakisani people started catching them and putting them on fire.


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## American Eagle

logic said:


> The point remains the Americans cannot see truth. There allegations are turned into reality where as eye witness are painted as speculators.





> Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.




The above immediate quote starting "Local TV showed..." is taken directly from the news release in Lahore. Did anyone notice the American was fired on???? He defended himself. Tough, he had every right to defend himself.

In my years in Pakistan, and ever since, armed Pakistanis on the streets are nothing new. What is new is terrorists attacking Americans on the streets of Lahore in this instance.


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## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> Get of your high horse.
> 
> 8 Bullet wounds to the rear of the 1st Rider
> 
> 4 Bullet wounds to t
> he rear of the pillion + 1 to the head.
> 
> ( How is shooting someone in the back "self defence"...They were escaping).
> 
> 
> 
> And this is unique to Pakistan how?
> 
> 
> Neither do you, so we can cut the crap.
> 
> Facts we do know...
> 
> 1. He breached SOP
> 2. *He was not allowed nor authorized to carry weapons*, neither did the American Consulate request a special permit from the Min. Interior for any such permission - CCPO Lahore
> 3. He is a Security Investigator at the Lahore Consulate.
> 4. CCPO has said that if he is not covered under diplomatic immunity then they will be lodging a "Murder" case
> 5. The civic Davis was driving *was not US consulate property* but owned by Sohial Raza from Gulberg.
> 6 . T*he Land Cruiser that killed the innocent motorcyclist Registration: LZ 697 - Was using a fake registration plate.* -CCPO Lahore
> 
> 7. *Onus of Evidence is on the accused if he claims Self Defence. *
> 
> 8.



Has your govt. come out with an official statement yet?

If no, then what's the point speculating?


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## flameboard

The punishment for murder in Pakistan is Death.


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## Thomas

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> The guy jumped to conclusion and killed ordinary people, took the law in his hand, and his crime gets hidden behind self defense ...



If instead of American he was a Pakistani killing robbers. I suspect the same people here condeming would be cheering. That aside though my prayer does go out to the street vendors family who was hit.

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## Spring Onion

Thomas said:


> So far I have seen multiple accounts here as to what happened. Is it customary in Pakistan to jump to conclusions and condem before you know that facts? After all isn't that what you accuse other countries of doing to pakistani's?



Sir why dont you prove yourself a little bit different and accept your mistake and crime ? atleast you should ask your own conscience whether your officials are at fault or not.

if you still wana come up with facepalms its your wish we cant help it but atleast you being from a country who's media start churning venom about Muslims in case of any incident in EU or US , your complaining about our condemning this crime is unjustified 

atleast do accept that you have killed 3 human unlawfully


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Has your govt. come out with an official statement yet?
> 
> If no, then what's the point speculating?



This is not speculation. Read the post, read my sources that i have quotes. This is information released form the CCPO (City Police Office), the person's role has been confirmed by Mr. Rodriguez ( Spokesperson of the US Consulate).


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## flameboard

The HBS Guy said:


> *What I can't fathom is the motive.
> 
> Why the hell would a diplomat shoot 3 people without provocation?
> 
> Why o Why?*



Some sources say he thought he was being followed got paranoid and shot the people he thought were. Others say he encountered robbers, it's not know whether they were armed but then he pulled out a gun shot them both and ran over a third person when fleeing the scene.


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## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> This is not speculation. Read the post, read my sources that i have quotes. This is information released form the CCPO (City Police Office), the person's role has been confirmed by Mr. Rodriguez ( Spokesperson of the US Consulate).



I'm talking about your foreign office or the interior ministry.


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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> Has your govt. come out with an official statement yet?
> 
> If no, then what's the point speculating?



Dude do u even know the facts, and the mere fact that you have started to defend the other who are defending the actions of this man shows the level of hate that you all carry about every thing that is Pakistani. Let me ask you this I have asked this 2ice or 3rice before. Why didnt the man in question follow the protocol put forth to him for his own safety. Why was he not in the BP car that they are provided. And why and why did he run away, and while doing so ran over an innocent man. And all of this are the eyewitness accounts put forth by people present on the scene. Not something that was made up to change the facts. 

OR shall I assume you are just as pathetic as any other who just want to ridicule us for the sake of it.

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## The HBS Guy

flameboard said:


> Some sources say he thought he was being followed got paranoid and shot the people he thought were. Others say he encountered robbers, it's not know whether they were armed but then he pulled out a gun shot them both and ran over a third person when fleeing the scene.



So that means it's not clear as to what exactly happened. 

What are be debating here then?


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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> *What I can't fathom is the motive.
> 
> Why the hell would a diplomat shoot 3 people without provocation?
> 
> Why o Why?*



The guy shot 2 people and ran over the 3rd when he was running away from the site. And the 3rd person was just an innocent man on his bike who had nothing to do with the whole scenario.


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## American Eagle

Patriot said:


> American Eagle the mere fact that you justify this murder pretty much shows your bias against Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular.I have seen your other threads where you ... claim that you unbiased.



There is nothing unbiased by your jumping to self invented conclusions while ignoring the facts, including the bullet ridden windshield of the attacked US Consulate employee who fired back in self defense.

You have also lied and made up a story line about drinking. The fact is many Pakistani cities have liquor and wine shops. Thus you should look into, from your safe location in Europe, probably never even been inside Pakistan where I lived and worked for two years, the alleged third Pakistani casualty, who could as easily have been a jay walker, a terrorist, or on drugs which are readily available all over Paksitan.

The missing equation is folks who like to blame and bash anyone when the crisis of terrorism is in Pakistan and Afghanistan, done by thugs in the name of religion, which shames and angers honest, solid peaceful Muslim believers, among whom we have several friends.

In short, being a smart aleck in tough times from a safe seat in Europe harms the good people of Pakistan and gains you no esteem nor respect whatsoever.


----------



## mehru

Thomas said:


> If instead of American he was a Pakistani killing robbers. I suspect the same people here condeming would be cheering. That aside though my prayer does go out to the street vendors family who was hit.



We were not sheering when Sialkot brothers were lynched by a mob who suspected them of robbers too.

So far noone knows who were they? So don't call them robbers right now. 

I think it's natural that people become emotional specially if they are from the victim's side. Hope you do understand that.


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> I'm talking about your foreign office or the interior ministry.



1. CCPO is the lead for the Home Department in Punjab
2. Home Dept is the Central Ministry for Punjab Affairs
3. The incident happened in the Capital of "Punjab"
4. The Ministry of Interior releases information following a report by the JIT or FIA, since you don't know how our process works it is best you consider reading what Pakistan's here are saying and consider that *3 of our national's died.*.


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## The HBS Guy

Aslan said:


> Dude do u even know the facts, and the mere fact that you have started to defend the other who are defending the actions of this man shows the level of hate that you all carry about every thing that is Pakistani. Let me ask you this I have asked this 2ice or 3rice before. Why didnt the man in question follow the protocol put forth to him for his own safety. Why was he not in the BP car that they are provided. And why and why did he run away, and while doing so ran over an innocent man. And all of this are the eyewitness accounts put forth by people present on the scene. Not something that was made up to change the facts.



*I DO NOT KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. *

That's why I'm saying, let's just wait for the official version of the Pakistani govt. 

We can wait, can't we?


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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> So that means it's not clear as to what exactly happened.
> 
> What are be debating here then?




What we are debating here is that Pakistan is no ones baap ki jageer, and one has to follow the rules put in place. And the diplomat had no business roaming the streets when they think it is not safe, and not alone. And another thing that we are debating is his running over an innocent man who had nothing to do with the other 2.

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## W.11

Thomas said:


> If instead of American he was a Pakistani killing robbers. I suspect the same people here condeming would be cheering. That aside though my prayer does go out to the street vendors family who was hit.



sir ji its not established and confirmed that those 2 men were robbers!!!


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## American Eagle

The HBS Guy said:


> *What I can't fathom is the motive.
> 
> Why the hell would a diplomat shoot 3 people without provocation?
> 
> Why o Why?*



*Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.*



> *Look at the preceding postings in this same Thread for actual photos of terrorist bullet holes in the windshield of the US Contulate officials car. Now what say you?*

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## Karachiite

Self defence my . These American haramis also opened fired on innocent Iraqi children and women in self defence. Those American killers still haven't been prosecuted. I doubt this amreeki suvar will. Next time if a consulate gets attacked or bombed no Pakistani should condemn it.

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## flameboard

Thomas said:


> If instead of American he was a Pakistani killing robbers. I suspect the same people here condeming would be cheering. That aside though my prayer does go out to the street vendors family who was hit.



First of all nothing has been proven. He could also be lying, and secondly a robber is a robber no one saw him getting robbed despite it taking place in a public setting. Pakistanis that have acted against robbers by killing them have received condemnation. You bet your a$$ people are going to be angry if foreigners come around killing people especially with the whole drone situation, if this guy isn't given held accountable, I can predict the public is going to take it's anger out on the rest of the employees.


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## W.11

its will also become very clear in near future that why pakistan desparately needs to evacuate afghanistan out of allied forces.. its more in the interest of pakistan than afghanistan itself..


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> *I DO NOT KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. *
> 
> That's why I'm saying, let's just wait for the official version of the Pakistani govt.
> 
> We can wait, can't we?



1. 3. Pakistani's are dead
2. This guy was NOT authorized to carry concealed weapons
3. The vehicles were using fake registration plates
4. He breached protocol as per the Embassy Warden Service and OSAC advice protocols for US officials in Pakistan
5. He was in an area of Lahore which is OFF Limits to US Officials ( read my previous posts with sources from the OSAC).
6. Again 3 Pakistani's are DEAD.

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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> *I DO NOT KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. *
> 
> That's why I'm saying, let's just wait for the official version of the Pakistani govt.
> 
> We can wait, can't we?



And how can u assume that we dont know. Just because it says that some american shoot and killed Pakistanis. 

I wonder what you would have said if it was the other way around, that a Pakistani shoot and killed some foreigners. Would you still have waited for the investigation, before making a judgement and coming to the conclusion. And please you dont need to lie to make a point be honest.

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## The HBS Guy

Aslan said:


> The guy shot 2 people and ran over the 3rd when he was running away from the site. And the 3rd person was just an innocent man on his bike who had nothing to do with the whole scenario.



From what you are telling me, all I can figure out is this:

I do not know about what transpired before the death of the first two men.

The death of the third man, though, seems to be the result of a nervous man who panicked. 

Why he panicked remains to be seen.


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## Patriot

American Eagle said:


> There is nothing unbiased by your jumping to self invented conclusions while ignoring the facts, including the bullet ridden windshield of the attacked US Consulate employee who fired back in self defense.
> 
> You have also lied and made up a story line about drinking. The fact is many Pakistani cities have liquor and wine shops. Thus you should look into, from your safe location in Europe, probably never even been inside Pakistan where I lived and worked for two years, the alleged third Pakistani casualty, who could as easily have been a jay walker, a terrorist, or on drugs which are readily available all over Paksitan.
> 
> The missing equation is folks who like to blame and bash anyone when the crisis of terrorism is in Pakistan and Afghanistan, done by thugs in the name of religion, which shames and angers honest, solid peaceful Muslim believers, among whom we have several friends.
> 
> In short, being a smart aleck in tough times from a safe seat in Europe harms the good people of Pakistan and gains you no esteem nor respect whatsoever.


I knew you would take a personal attack on my flag as you have done before.Yeah at least i am not in America and proud of my European host country and i will go back in few years after completing my education.I am paying all the expenses.Someone is not doing a favor for me so..I have lived 19 years in my country and i was in my country just few months ago and will go back again after 3 years permanently so instead of pussyfooting the issue at hand and derailing the issue.Let's discuss the topic PS: The windshield shoots are from his own pistol when he fired outside AFAIK.No shoots were fired on him according to Police.He just spotted a pistol and started shooting and what does liquor has to do with this topic and please point out the post where i lied?If you had little bit of common sense which i think is not common when you substitute your head with your you would have done some proper research on my profile.I am probably the most pro Western/Liberal person here otherwise you would have brought other ridioclous claims like i am a jihadi/exteremist/whatever

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## flameboard

*What kind of a robber tries to steal a car by standing behind it? The guy is lying.*


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## Spring Onion

Thomas said:


> If instead of American he was a Pakistani *killing robbers.* I suspect the same people here condeming would be cheering. That aside though my prayer does go out to the street vendors family who was hit.



How do you know they were robbers ? specially when a while back you were asking us for waiting for facts to come out?

And day the grieved family of vendor when target US consulate in revenge revenge  we will hear a holly kill from Americans

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## Aslan

American Eagle said:


> *Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.*



Mr saintly I am still waiting on your verdict on the running over of an innocent man. Or you have branded him a terrorist too.


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## logic

Thomas said:


> So far I have seen multiple accounts here as to what happened. Is it customary in Pakistan to jump to conclusions and condem before you know that facts? After all isn't that what you accuse other countries of doing to pakistani's?



It is the US that jumps to conclusion on false evidence and invaded IRAQ.


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## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> 1. 3. Pakistani's are dead
> 2. This guy was NOT authorized to carry concealed weapons
> 3. The vehicles were using fake registration plates
> 4. He breached protocol as per the Embassy Warden Service and OSAC advice protocols for US officials in Pakistan
> 5. He was in an area of Lahore which is OFF Limits to US Officials ( read my previous posts with sources from the OSAC).
> 6. Again 3 Pakistani's are DEAD.



Sir please try to answer a simple question of mine:

Why will a diplomat panic?


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## SEAL

US will save this Davis bastard so kill 3 pussies in A'stan because in A'stan its legal to kill invaders.


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## American Eagle

> Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield.





> _Kindly look at actual photos of US Consulate officals windshied full of terrorist bullet holes. Think if you were in that vehicle, being shot to pieces, would not you shoot back? Most folks would!_





Aston-Martin said:


> sir ji its not established and confirmed that those 2 men were robbers!!!



Young folks in Europe, many of whom have net set foot inside Pakistan, are full of it to make up such huge lies and stories when the facts have yet to be investigated and established.

The only prima facia evidence this site contains are photos of the US officials shot up windshield, which seem rather violent, as in an act of terrorists against a Westerner.


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## redgriffin

To all the bloody yanks over here, I was there ok I'm an eye witness. I was buying lunch in a bakery (Niralla Jail road) in front of which your trigger happy assole gunned down 2 innocent boys after another bunch of your baastard countrymen ran over a guy on a bike and these two boys tried to stop that Prado along with other people and traffic wardens when that guy in the white civic opened fire on them. 
What is worse that despite us witnesses and wardens telling the channels and police the truth, they are twisting facts and have turned these two poor traders from Shah Alam wholesale market into robbers.
Only Express news has had the guts to run the story as it actually happened alongside the government dribble.
I wish we had lynched those yankie maaderchods there and then.
P.S mods please don't edit or delete my post as I want the members to know what really happened. God I felt so helpless then.

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## Karachiite

This is a wakeup call. Every Amreeki suvaar needs to be exterminated from Pakistan. We are going to turn into another Iraq and Afghanistan where Amreeki terrorist army kills innocents on a daily basis in the name of self defence. We need to protest to bring this na mard government down. 
We need to act tough like Tunisians and Egyptians or else we will be another collapsed state. 

Imran Khan is the only man who will flush every American out of Pakistan.


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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> From what you are telling me, all I can figure out is this:
> 
> I do not know about what transpired before the death of the first two men.
> 
> The death of the third man, though, seems to be the result of a nervous man who panicked.
> 
> Why he panicked remains to be seen.



Ah the irony you indians are beyond me, what part of the guy was not following the protocol you dont get. So if he had followed the rules he would have not be in trouble. And about the nervousness of the guy, did you know that after shooting the 2 men he actually took their pictures. So I wonder what prompted him to be nervous latter, when he had the state of mind to take pics of the people he had just shot. 

And my advice to you is that try to know the facts first and they are all posted in this thread only, rather then being a pure suckup.


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## mjnaushad

Who are you arguing guys.... For americans only american are human... If anybody else die who cares.... If those 2 were robbers what about the guy who was crushed by American .... Ohh wait that was a Pakistani so his life worth nothing....


BTW that third human like creature which is known as Pakistani to americans had an engagement ceremony next month...


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## The HBS Guy

redgriffin said:


> To all the bloody yanks over here, I was there ok I'm an eye witness. I was buying lunch in a bakery (Niralla Jail road) in front of which your trigger happy assole gunned down 2 innocent boys after another bunch of your baastard countrymen ran over a guy on a bike and these two boys tried to stop that Prado along with other people and traffic wardens when that guy in the white civic opened fire on them.
> What is worse that despite us witnesses and wardens telling the channels and police the truth, they are twisting facts and have turned these two poor traders from Shah Alam wholesale market into robbers.
> Only Express news has had the guts to run the story as it actually happened alongside the government dribble.
> I wish we had lynched those yankie maaderchods there and then.
> P.S mods please don't edit or delete my post as I want the members to know what really happened. God I felt so helpless then.



If what you're saying is true then I believe it would be best for the Pakistani govt. to lodge an official protest with the state department.

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## mehru

Ok everyone Plz give it a rest. Let's wait for the official statement.

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## The HBS Guy

Aslan said:


> Ah the irony you indians are beyond me, what part of the guy was not following the protocol you dont get. So if he had followed the rules he would have not be in trouble. And about the nervousness of the guy, did you know that after shooting the 2 men he actually took their pictures. So I wonder what prompted him to be nervous latter, when he had the state of mind to take pics of the people he had just shot.
> 
> And my advice to you is that try to know the facts first and they are all posted in this thread only, rather then being a pure suckup.



Please read post 185. I'm only trying to be objective here and not judgemental. 

If indeed what you guys are saying is true, then I'd want the Pakistani govt. to lodge an official protest with the state deartment.

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## sur

News says there was an *SUV* he was riding then what about this *white Honda*,, with 5 bullet holes in it... *????*


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> *Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front win
> 1. Did you fail to hear or read the admission by davis that he shoot out from the front and rear of his vehicle..?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consider the location of those grouping.. Do you think if the suspects had fired those shots he would have survived... They are all at the center of the Dash and Driver Side... Yet there are no impact marks on the interior or the upholstery.
> 
> ??*

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## American Eagle

The HBS Guy said:


> If what you're saying is true then I believe it would be best for the Pakistani govt. to lodge an official protest with the state department.



The tea shop story is 100% a lie.

All you have to see for now is the photo in this same Thread of the bullet riddled windshild of the US officials car. He fired back in self defense, which was the sane thing to do vs. letting himself be murdered by these twit terrorists.

The Pakistani Police have photos and related evidence in hand now, so all these "tea shop" and"vendor" made up after the event lies are pointless to say the least. These merely aid and abet terrorism and terrorists and these folks might be looked into by the security officials?

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## RescueRanger

sur said:


> There was an *SUV* he was riding then what about this *white Honda*,, with 5 bullet holes in it... *????*



No, he was riding the civic and his support team were in the Cruiser. 

Those bullet holes were made by davis as he shot at the persons.

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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> Please read post 185. I'm only trying to be objective here and not judgemental.
> 
> If indeed what you guys are saying is true, then I'd want the Pakistani govt. to lodge an official protest with the state deartment.



U need to edit the Pakistan gov part my friend, rather they should be called America's Concubine's. And I am being very generous with my words.


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## Thomas

mehru said:


> We were not sheering when Sialkot brothers were lynched by a mob who suspected them of robbers too.
> 
> So far noone knows who were they? So don't call them robbers right now.
> 
> I think it's natural that people become emotional specially if they are from the victim's side. Hope you do understand that.



It was your police who called them probable robbers. 

"The senior superintendant of police in Lahore identified the two men shot to death as Faisan Haider and Obaid Ur Rehman, both of whom were reportedly riding motorcycles when the consulate staffer opened fire. Local media quoted witnesses as saying that the men had been "chasing" the American's car when the shooting began, and police said they had recovered weapons carried by the dead men.

*Police officer Umar Saeed the two men were suspected robbers and that the American shot at them in self-defense* and managed to alert colleagues who were in a vehicle traveling behind him. The vehicle, reportedly a Land Cruiser, hit a passer-by as it rushed to the scene. The pedestrian later died at a Lahore hospital."


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> The tea shop story is 100% a lie.



So now you are Judge, Jury and Executioner...


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## The HBS Guy

American Eagle said:


> The tea shop story is 100% a lie.
> 
> All you have to see for now is the photo in this same Thread of the bullet riddled windshild of the US officials car. He fired back in self defense, which was the sane thing to do vs. letting himself be murdered by these twit terrorists.
> 
> The Pakistani Police have photos and related evidence in hand now, so all these "tea shop" and"vendor" made up after the event lies are pointless to say the least. These merely aid and abet terrorism and terrorists and these folks might be looked into by the security officials?



I think it would be best to just wait. 

I would personally also like to listen to what the state department has to say. 

The full picture will only become clear when we have the version of both the sides in our hands.


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## The HBS Guy

Aslan said:


> U need to edit the Pakistan gov part my friend, rather they should be called America's Concubine's. And I am being very generous with my words.



Well sir, that is something only Pakistanis can do something about. 

For an outsider like me, it is and shall be treated as the govt. of Pakistan.


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## Aslan

American Eagle said:


> The tea shop story is 100% a lie.
> 
> All you have to see for now is the photo in this same Thread of the bullet riddled windshild of the US officials car. He fired back in self defense, which was the sane thing to do vs. letting himself be murdered by these twit terrorists.
> 
> The Pakistani Police have photos and related evidence in hand now, so all these "tea shop" and"vendor" made up after the event lies are pointless to say the least. These merely aid and abet terrorism and terrorists and these folks might be looked into by the security officials?



And you know every (thing as I am going to be disrespectful to you now) as you have a crystal ball stuck up your back that tells you what had happened, and every one else is a liar.

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## Aslan

The HBS Guy said:


> Well sir, that is something only Pakistanis can do something about.
> 
> For an outsider like me, it is and shall be treated as the govt. of Pakistan.



I understand and I appreciate it, but if these b@sterds dont start to take things seriously it is getting to a point where it will be a bit too late.

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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Sir please try to answer a simple question of mine:
> 
> Why will a diplomat panic?



May i take the liberty of reminding you of the Hoo Haa created when Indians were savagely beaten in Australia or the treatment of one of your top diplomats at a backwater airport...

Those protests were for what? to will a diplomatic panic? to score points or to drive home a message... Don't trifle with our emotions and national pride. 

So answer me this, does Pakistan not have any such right... Do Pakistani's not have the right to express their frustrations?

Why did the turk's attack the Israeli Embassy in Istanbul following the flotilla raid?

Yet don't you think us Pakistani's are a far more tolerant lot, despite this there has been restraint...

This is just public frustration and it is ringing loud and clear for Constitution Avenue, Awan-E-Sadar and Capitol Hill... "Don't Trifle with us".

It's a powder keg at the moment, this retard has only made a delicate situation far worse. There is a reason they have well designed protocol's..

Breach them and this is what you get.

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## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> May i take the liberty of reminding you of the Hoo Haa created when Indians were savagely beaten in Australia or the treatment of one of your top diplomats at a backwater airport...
> 
> Those protests were for what? to will a diplomatic panic? to score points or to drive home a message... Don't trifle with our emotions and national pride.
> 
> So answer me this, does Pakistan not have any such right... Do Pakistani's not have the right to express their frustrations?
> 
> Why did the turk's attack the Israeli Embassy in Istanbul following the flotilla raid?
> 
> Yet don't you think us Pakistani's are a far more tolerant lot, despite this there has been restraint...
> 
> This is just public frustration and it is ringing loud and clear for Constitution Avenue, Awan-E-Sadar and Capitol Hill... "Don't Trifle with us".
> 
> It's a powder keg at the moment, this retard has only made a delicate situation far worse. There is a reason they have well designed protocol's..
> 
> Breach them and this is what you get.



I can understand your frustration with your govt. but ultimately these matters are only to be discussed between governments of sovereign states.

I cannot pass a judgement here. 

What I would like though, is to read a version of the events from both sides.

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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> I can understand your frustration with your govt. but ultimately these matters are only to be discussed between governments of sovereign states.



Incorrect. 

Democracy = For the people, by the people. Where is the "people" in this Pakistani Demo Crazy!

The power of questioning is the most valuable weapon we have. As long as there are unanswered questions, it is worth asking... It it worth seeking. 

The power's that be need to be reminded once in a while that the foundations of their thrones rest on the shoulders of the populace.

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## FNFAL

So any official statement from GOP or all is hush hush?


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## Spring Onion

The HBS Guy said:


> From what you are telling me, all I can figure out is this:
> 
> I do not know about what transpired before the death of the first two men.
> 
> The death of the third man, though, seems to be the result of a nervous man who panicked.
> 
> Why he panicked remains to be seen.



You surely being an Indian is just posting blindly without knowing that the third innocent Pakistani was hit by the second car driven by rest of Americans who came to cover up the killer American and in meanwhile the second car full of americans crushed the third person to death.

oh yeh panicked

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## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> Democracy = For the people, by the people. Where is the "people" in this Pakistani Demo Crazy!
> 
> The power of questioning is the most valuable weapon we have. As long as there are unanswered questions, it is worth asking... It it worth seeking.
> 
> The power's that be need to be reminded once in a while that the foundations of their thrones rest on the shoulders of the populace.



Sir democracy does not come overnight. Look at us, even after 63 years of nearly uninterrupted democracy, we still are far from being a true democracy.

Democracy has to be nurtured. You have to be patient with democracy. 

Democracy is a slow and messy thing but it works.

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## redgriffin

These yanks are not worth arguing with.
I know what I saw with my two eyes and reported the same in my witness statement to the police. God knows why they are covering up all this?
That haraamzada David opened fire at the back of those two guys. I was there munching on a spring roll, leaning aginst my car when all this broke lose barely 20 yards away from where I was parked. I saw it all and nothing will change the truth no matter how much the govt and the yankie baastards try to cover it up.
I was there at the hospital as well and talked to a couple of relatives of one of the deceased. A guy named Faisal. The gun with which they are using to conveniently paint the guys as dacoits is a licensed piece which Faisal carried for self protection as his brother had already been killed due to a family enemity about 4 months back.

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## Stealth

lanat @ PAKISTANI KOOM PAKISTANI GOVT AND PAKISTANI RULE OF LAW MAKERS!

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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> No Sir, we are better than that. One cannot fight ignorance and absurdity with the same.



With due respect...
I hate this chaplosi and Sir Sir routine, and this is one of the main reasons america get away with it, we as new generation are sick of these low life attitudes and that much involvement of america in our internal, external and strategic issues.

Banda merwa k bhi uthae jao bus


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## Thomas

redgriffin said:


> These yanks are not worth arguing with.
> I know what I saw with my two eyes and reported the same in my witness statement to the police. God knows why they are covering up all this?
> That haraamzada David opened fire at the back of those two guys. I was there munching on a spring roll, leaning aginst my car when all this broke lose barely 20 yards away from where I was parked. I saw it all and nothing will change the truth no matter how much the govt and the yankie baastards try to cover it up.
> I was there at the hospital as well and talked to a couple of relatives of one of the deceased. A guy named Faisal. The gun with which they are using to conveniently paint the guys as dacoits is a licensed piece which Faisal carried for self protection as his brother had already been killed due to a family enemity about 4 months back.



So the other witnesses at the scene are lying as well? That and you happen to be 20 yards away and also at the hospital. Plus the police are in some elaborate cover-up lying about the two assailants criminal records? Is it common practice to issue gun licenses to people with criminal records?


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## Stealth

zindage may itne mainay galyaan nahe den jitne aaj mainay is mulk kay hukmaran aur Army ko deen hain FRANKLY SPEAKING!!

and YES ARMY IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE!!

200 Soldiers standing on the footpath just to defend Army general ????? same police! IDIOT THIS ARMY and POLICE ARE HERE JUST TO DEFEND """ONLY""" THIS COUNTRY NOT THESE SINGLE ****

secondly HOW THIS CIA, MOSSAD BLAA BLAA agencies patrolling here ???? where is the ARMY ? where is security DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE REAL TERRORIST OF THIS WORLD IS *USA!*

killing 1000ss of Iraq'iz Afghanistani'z PAkistani'z!


WTH!!

*AMERICAN A****

1. PRIVATE CAR NO.
2. ON LOCAL STREETS (Where not a single EMBASSY etc)
3. WITH GUN/PISTOL
4. WITH WIRELESS SET!
5. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING MOST CROWDED PLACE
6. COMING FROM WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD*

Not killing even 3 also crashed his car in may things (Rickshaw, also hit another motorcycle and car) many people injured!!

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## American Eagle

Aslan said:


> And you know every (thing as I am going to be disrespectful to you now) as you have a crystal ball stuck up your back that tells you what had happened, and every one else is a liar.



Insuling is not allowed on PDF, so you might want to self report and self remove your posting.



> All anyone here has to do is look at the pictures of the American's gun shot riddled windshield to put down the lies and falsehoods herein.
> 
> It is pretty simple.
> 
> Otherwise let the facts speaks for themselves, as all these self made up opinions are not facts and most come from outside of Pakistan (mine included). But you or I or anyone can see the bullet riddled windshield photo the police released. It speaks for itself...the American was flatly attacked, nothing less. To say or suggest otherwise is hate mongering or worse terrorist supporting dialogue which undermines the soverignty and safety of Pakistan as a nation.


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## VCheng

Glorious Resolve said:


> With due respect...
> I hate this chaplosi and Sir Sir routine, and this is one of the main reasons america get away with it, we as new generation are sick of these low life attitudes and that much involvement of america in our internal, external and strategic issues.
> 
> Banda merwa k bhi uthae jao bus



With equally due respect Sir Glorious Resolve.......

... my use of the word Sir is an indication of talking respectfully, no matter what the nationality being addressed. (Being educated in a military institution will do that to anyone!  )

*I bow to no man.*

The reasons the America "gets away" with anything has more to do with other causes, not polite language.

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## Thomas

redgriffin said:


> To all the bloody yanks over here, I was there ok I'm an eye witness. I was buying lunch in a bakery (Niralla Jail road) in front of which your trigger happy assole gunned down 2 innocent boys after another bunch of your baastard countrymen ran over a guy on a bike and these two boys tried to stop that Prado along with other people and traffic wardens when that guy in the white civic opened fire on them.
> What is worse that despite us witnesses and wardens telling the channels and police the truth, they are twisting facts and have turned these two poor traders from Shah Alam wholesale market into robbers.
> Only Express news has had the guts to run the story as it actually happened alongside the government dribble.
> I wish we had lynched those yankie maaderchods there and then.
> P.S mods please don't edit or delete my post as I want the members to know what really happened. God I felt so helpless then.




If you&#8217;re going to claim to be wittiness then at least gets the timing of the event right. The second vehicle was alerted after the fact of the shooting. That is when the bystander was hit. Also your story doesn't jive with other wittiness accounts. 

Seems like what we have now are people on this forum deliberately trying to make up stories saying they were there and watched it all go down. However their stories don't match with each other. Or the other none PDF witnesses.


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## redgriffin

It's not me or the other witnesses who are lying, it is our government. And yes I was at the hospital LATER as well, try using your mental faculties. Members who know me personally know that my mother is a medical proffessor and she is nowadays posted as an external examiner for Mphil exams at SIMS where the victims were taken. I went to her office instead of going back to mine got it!

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## humanfirst

redgriffin said:


> I was buying lunch in a bakery (Niralla Jail road) in front of which your trigger happy assole gunned down 2 innocent boys after another bunch of your baastard countrymen ran over a guy on a bike and these two boys tried to stop that Prado along with other people and traffic wardens when that guy in the white civic opened fire on them.
> What is worse that despite us witnesses and wardens telling the channels and police the truth, they are twisting facts and have turned these two poor traders from Shah Alam wholesale market into robbers.



So according to you it was the prado which came first and ran over a guy in motorcycle.Then the people there including the two (who died later) and traffic wardens tried to stop the prado.Then the american guy in civic shot and killed those two guys who were trying to stop prado.Is this what you witnessed?


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> With equally due respect Sir Glorious Resolve.......
> 
> ... my use of the word Sir is an indication of talking respectfully, no matter what the nationality being addressed. (Being educated in a military institution will do that to anyone!  )
> 
> *I bow to no man.*
> 
> The reasons the America "gets away" with anything has more to do with other causes, not polite language.



Sorry about that, i am over run by emotions

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## redgriffin

And only one tv channel has run with that story whereas we gave the statements to the police and to two more channels. You can believe what you want mr, frankly I don't give a flying fcuk about what you or the other americans are bleating here.


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## JonAsad

I am 100% sure, they will soon find a bazooka and an AK as evidence that the motor cyclist were robbers, and that innocent guy who was ran over had a detonation device that didn't work.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

under NO circumstances may foreigners (diplomats at that) in Pakistan carry weapons....the standard protocol is to have reasonably well-armed and alert guards travel in tandem, in the vehicle as well as behind it. 

I can understand that the diplomat acted on instinct; however it is still not acceptable. I don't regret the fact that 2 criminals carrying guns are no longer breathing; however foreigners cannot engage in vigilante behaviour in a foreign country --especially one like Pakistan where they are trying to fan down anti-American sentiment amongst the common man; an innocent bystander was killed by their rashly driven escort, that is also completely unacceptable --and mirrors the driving tactics of Marines in Baghdad and Afghanistan --which is not welcome in our country.

they should be stripped of their diplomatic immunity and be tried for murder in the first degree and involuntary manslaughter as well; the family of the victim should be compensated

diplomats should avoid travelling around except without a security protocol authorized by Interior Ministry/FO. And under no circumstances should they be allowed to carry weapons.

my views...

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## Spring Onion

Glorious Resolve said:


> I am 100% sure, they will soon find a bazooka and an AK as evidence that the motor cyclist were robbers, and that innocent guy who was ran over had a detonation device that didn't work.



yeh the police already made up a story that dollars were recovered from pockets of killed men 

now one wonders if they knew some magic and the yankee's dollars flown to their pockets from the closed door car

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## VCheng

Glorious Resolve said:


> Sorry about that, i am over run by emotions




Thank you for accepting that, but please remember that a disciplined mind never lets raw emotions get the better of him/her under ANY circumstances.

*We MUST learn to get our points of view across politely and intelligently.*

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## Spring Onion

BTW from judicial point of view some correction needed with regard to this Self-Defence mantra 


*This is not at all a case of self defence for many reasons-according to Pakistan Penal Code, 1860 Section 100 covered self defence and prima facie they fired from inside the bullet proof vehicle and downing one person the other one was fired directly. We may give benefit of doubt but when the other motorcycle was chased and crushed this exception goes out and this action comes under the purview if Qatl-e-Amd as defined in Section 300 of the PPC and is punishable under Section 302 PPC*

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## redgriffin

Jana behn we really are a ''suti payi qaum''.
And that point which I posted about the licensed piece on Faisal and his family eemity won't make it to the news either. It will always be a couple of dacoits vs a yank out there and a lying(sic) chartered accountant vs american military pros in here.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

that Civic didn't even have tinted/privacy glass?

you can't be serious.....


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## Spitfighter

Two things.

1. I think the Pakistani police has already verified that he acted in self defense. 
2. Diplomatic immunity. 

They'll probably just recall the guy, there's no way he's going to be tried in Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

can someone more familiar with international law inform whether Pakistan can legally detain and try these men in local courts; or is it standard that he would be repatriated to the U.S.?

I am not confident that US courts would be sympathetic to the Pakistani viewpoint. And for that reason, he and his buddies involved could possibly be viewed as a flight risks.


this is a tricky one; and this will put a lot of inexorable pressure on the Fed government since they (as usual) have to play their little balancing act


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## SekrutYakhni

*"200 Soldiers standing on the footpath just to defend Army general ????? same police! IDIOT THIS ARMY and POLICE ARE HERE JUST TO DEFEND """ONLY""" THIS COUNTRY NOT THESE SINGLE *"*

I agree STEALTH.

*Welcome to Pakistan. *


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## Abu Zolfiqar

can someone post a picture of the shattered windshield?

where the bullet hole(s) are is the glass shattered outwards or inwards?


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## RescueRanger

Spitfighter said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. I think the Pakistani police has already verified that he acted in self defense.
> 2. Diplomatic immunity.
> 
> They'll probably just recall the guy, there's no way he's going to be tried in Pakistan.





> I think the Pakistani police has already verified that he acted in self defense.



It that why they are investigating the missing cruiser with the fake number-plate? 



> Diplomatic immunity.



Not entirely correct:
As per Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963; Article 41 para 1:
Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, *except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.*

3:
If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, *he must appear before the competent authorities.* Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this Article, in a manner which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. *When, in the circumstances mentioned in paragraph 1 of this Article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay.*

So basically the international convention does GIVE Pakistan the Right as the host nation to pursue legal proceedings against this individual, also if the US State Department want they can make Davis waive his diplomatic immunity.

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## JonAsad

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> can someone post a picture of the shattered windshield?
> 
> where the bullet hole(s) are is the glass shattered outwards or inwards?



good point sir, i was thinking the same. its really hard for me to believe a single man being shot at inside a car can kill two armed people. 

there is quite a possibility that american lost his nerves after seeing some thing shinning and started firing from inside.


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## GUNNER

A double-murder case has been registered against the American, according to the CCPO Lahore.

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## pakistanamerican

Police: US official kills 2 gunmen in Pakistan
LAHORE, Pakistan &#8211; A U.S. consular employee shot and killed two gunmen as they approached his vehicle in a congested street in Pakistan on Thursday, police said. A pedestrian was also killed by a speeding American car trying to help, an officer said.

The U.S. Embassy said an American employee was involved in the incident in Lahore, but could not confirm details.

Police officer Umar Saeed said the men were suspected robbers, but provided no evidence to back up the statement. He said the American, who was not identified, shot at the men in self-defense.

Western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of militant attack. Lahore has seen frequent terrorist bombings and shootings over the last two years, though the city's small expatriate population has not been directly targeted.

Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen said the American was being questioned by the police and may be charged with both murder and illegally carrying a weapon: a Beretta pistol. The American shot both men after they pointed guns at him at an intersection, Tareen said.

"Diplomatic staff usually enjoy a certain type of immunity, but I am not sure about murder," he said. "We will consult the Foreign Office and legal advisers in this regard."

The gunmen approached the American's vehicle on a motorbike, said Saeed, the police officer. The American managed to alert colleagues in a car behind him who hit and killed a passer-by as they rushed to the scene, he said.

Local TV showed footage of what it said was the American's car, which had several bullet holes in the front windshield. It also showed one of the gunmen laying dead next to a motorbike with a pistol on the ground nearby. The other gunman was shown being placed in the back of an ambulance and appeared to be wearing a holster.

In the northwestern city of Peshawar in 2008, gunmen shot and killed an American aid worker as he drove to work. Suspected militants also opened fire on the vehicle of the United States' top diplomat in the city the same year, but she survived the attack.

Street robberies are not uncommon in Pakistan, and foreigners would be perceived as lucrative targets in the poor country.

Lahore is a city of 12 million people in eastern Pakistan not far from the Indian border. The United States has a small diplomatic mission there.

While the facts of the incident are still being established, it may add to anti-American rhetoric in the country.

A few dozen people protested outside the police station where the American was being held. They burnt tires and one of them held up a sign saying "American dog."

Sections of the Pakistani media are prone to fanning right-wing conspiracy theories that frequently feature armed foreigners roaming the country at will, violating its sovereignty. The United States is pumping millions of dollars in aid to the country, but many people still regard it with suspicion or outright enmity.


Sorry Folks but I dont think the American just shot these people for the fun of it and if I was in Pakistan I would carry a gun.


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## JonAsad

Latest:
He is going back to Washington.. Case Closed.


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## Thomas

Spitfighter said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1.* I think the Pakistani police has already verified that he acted in self defense. *2. Diplomatic immunity.
> 
> They'll probably just recall the guy, there's no way he's going to be tried in Pakistan.




you might as well save it. Anti American hysteria fanned by politicians, media, and extremists will always prevail. It doesn't matter what the facts are. the embassy official was guilty the minute he stepped on Pakistan soil. After all the U.S. is the source of all of Pakistan's problems. I'm sure he was there to oversee all blackwater operations. As well as act as Osama bin ladens handler. Oh, and moonlight as an agent of mossad......Am I missing any other possible labels thrown around this website by senior and elite members in times past towards Americans?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

appears to me that shots were fired from the inside of the Civic.....no gunfire seems to have taken place from the alleged bandits on the bike, i dont see any bullet holes in the body of the car

it does appear that the Civic may have rammed into a rickshaw or some blunt object as there is body damage in the front

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Glorious Resolve said:


> Latest:
> He is going back to Washington.. Case Closed.

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## Karachiite

He's going be sent back to his hometown and set free for murdering three innocent civillians just like what happened to the American coward soldiers when they killed a whole village filled of children and women. 

btw what happened to the Bin laden hunter?


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## RescueRanger

Thomas said:


> you might as well save it. Anti American hysteria fanned by politicians, media, and extremists will always prevail. It doesn't matter what the facts are. the embassy official was guilty the minute he stepped on Pakistan soil. After all the U.S. is the source of all of Pakistan's problems. I'm sure he was there to oversee all blackwater operations. As well as act as Osama bin ladens handler. Oh, and moonlight as an agent of mossad......Am I missing any other possible labels thrown around this website by senior and elite members in times past towards Americans?



I am as staunch a supporter of the US as they come, but that does not mean i simply shut my eyes when clearly a crime has been committed by one of YOUR citizens and Officials on OUR soil and against OUR people. 

Don't like the overtures on PDF.. No one is forcing you to stay.

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## pakistanamerican

Well lets look at it this way, if he was a Pakistan offical in New York and two men tried to rob him and he shot them in self defense and there were bullet holes in the car showing where the robbers had tried to shoot him and some other Pakistan offical had hit and killed some one rushing to the rescue what would you think the fair and right thing to do would be.

I assume in all fairness it would be the same thing you want done to this US offiical

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## JonAsad

Abu Zolfiqar said:


>



I heard that in the news.


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## Beacon

Feel sorry for the dead....  

Whatever self defence... nonsense....


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## pakistanamerican

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> appears to me that shots were fired from the inside of the Civic.....no gunfire seems to have taken place from the alleged bandits on the bike, i dont see any bullet holes in the body of the car
> 
> it does appear that the Civic may have rammed into a rickshaw or some blunt object as there is body damage in the front



I think if you fire a car from inside a car the window would shatter, not sure.


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## JonAsad

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> appears to me that shots were fired from the inside of the Civic.....no gunfire seems to have taken place from the alleged bandits on the bike, i dont see any bullet holes in the body of the car
> 
> it does appear that the Civic may have rammed into a rickshaw or some blunt object as there is body damage in the front



These five bullets killed two men?
Is he a sharp shooter or what?


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## pakistanamerican

Glorious Resolve said:


> These five bullets killed two men?
> Is he a sharp shooter or what?



I expect he was military or CIA


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## Spring Onion

GUNNER said:


> A double-murder case has been registered against the American, according to the CCPO Lahore.



No use the killers are running away to US like their CIA chief.

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## monitor12345

Leviza said:


> This time people handed him to police
> 
> if he went without any justice next time people will do justice on road like in other cases ........
> 
> ball in in gov court now



If US consulate worker had escaped , It would have been reported as Target killing case. Target killings are CIA's high-tech spies actions, which are creating the base for the break up of Pakistan, by dividing Pakistanis into ethnic lines.


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## AstanoshKhan

Whatever may be the case or outcome but one thing is for sure - the American grave in Pakistan has been dug more and more deep. Just wait and see for their burial...!


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## redgriffin

Like I said the shots were fired from the inside. And you know what is cute? When he was racing away, his rear wind shield was intact. Now in the 9 and 11 pm news I saw footage of the car under police impound with guess what the whole rear wind shield smashed in with glass on the back seats, but no glass on the front seats or dash which there ought to have been if the victims had shot at that illegitimate piece of trash.
You can easily guess which way these Machiavilis will twist the story now wrt the shattered glass and how the gullible idiots out there will lap it up.
Makes me sick and my blood is still boilling with rage even after all these hours.

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## Jackdaws

There is no diplomatic immunity for murder.


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## pakistanamerican

AstanoshKhan said:


> Whatever may be the case or outcome but one thing is for sure - the American grave in Pakistan has been dug more and more deep. Just wait and see for their burial...!



I expect two graves will need digging one for the few Americans in Pakistan and large one for all the people of Pakistan. For those left alive life wont be worth living.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

yep there should not be any immunity for him and he should be prosecuted as a murderer and if found guilty he must be punished under act 302....


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## Spring Onion

redgriffin said:


> Like I said the shots were fired from the inside. And you know what is cute? When he was racing away, his rear wind shield was intact. Now in the 9 and 11 pm news I saw footage of the car under police impound with guess what the whole rear wind shield smashed in with glass on the back seats, but no glass on the front seats or dash which there ought to have been if the victims had shot at that illegitimate piece of trash.
> You can easily guess which way these Machiavilis will twist the story now wrt the shattered glass and how the gullible idiots out there will lap it up.
> Makes me sick and my blood is still boilling with rage even after all these hours.



Yes i was avoiding to mention that because the so-called liberals and US members will get on my throat calling it conspiracy.


Why you wont be surprised to find the all fine intact rear windshield completely broken down . ahh what is police for other than covering him up making it appear like grave robbery

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## Aslan

American Eagle said:


> Insuling is not allowed on PDF, so you might want to self report and self remove your posting.



And I am not going to do either, u report and let the mods take action.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Jackdaws said:


> There is no diplomatic immunity for murder.



If there is nt, I am sure there would be one.!
In any case, sometimes it takes a while for actual facts to come out.
regardless, no one should be totting a gun, esp. illegally be it the accusers or the diplomats.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pakistanamerican said:


> Well lets look at it this way, if he was a Pakistan offical in New York and two men tried to rob him and he shot them in self defense and there were bullet holes in the car showing where the robbers had tried to shoot him and some other Pakistan offical had hit and killed some one rushing to the rescue what would you think the fair and right thing to do would be.
> 
> I assume in all fairness it would be the same thing you want done to this US offiical



they'd be sitting in Rikers Island penitentiary awaiting ''terrorism'' charges

that's what they would be doing

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## SekrutYakhni

Jana said:


> *No use* the killers are running away to US like their CIA chief.



The word you used, _no use_, undermines the spirit of our constitution. Even though, technically you are right, considering history of our government (military and politicians), no one has the right to say _'no use' _


Refrain from such comments.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pakistanamerican said:


> I think if you fire a car from inside a car the window would shatter, not sure.



windshields shatter, but not into shards...it's safety glass

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## pakistanamerican

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> yep there should not be any immunity for him and he should be prosecuted as a murderer and if found guilty he must be punished under act 302....



Same should apply to any one from Pakistan in the USA even its in self defense includeing people that work for the Pakistan embassy or the united nations. Thats only fair.

UNITED NATIONS, Jan. 7  The State Department has asked Pakistan to withdraw the diplomatic immunity of its envoy here, Munir Akram, after New York City prosecutors sought to bring misdemeanor assault charges against him as a result of a quarrel with a woman, United States and New York City officials said today.

Marjorie Tiven, the city commissioner in charge of United Nations issues, wrote to the United States Mission here on Dec. 26 requesting that the envoy's immunity be removed, according to Edward Skyler, the mayor's spokesman. Mr. Skyler said the Manhattan district attorney's office had advised city officials that it was prepared to prosecute if Mr. Akram's immunity was lifted. Pakistan has not yet informed the United States of any decision.

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## pakistanamerican

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> windshields shatter, but not into shards...it's safety glass



Perhaps but I know they say to have something sharp to shatter the glass to get out if you drive into water and cant get the windowns down, think a bullet would do the same thing.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Glorious Resolve said:


> I heard that in the news.



that's the only smiley i could find that emulates ''dismay''

i wasn't disagreeing with you

i havent gotten a chance to watch the news today, im basing my knowledge on online news and what i read here


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## pakistanamerican

Jackdaws said:


> There is no diplomatic immunity for murder.



So you think he just shot them for the fun of it.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pakistanamerican said:


> Perhaps but I know they say to have something sharp to shatter the glass to get out if you drive into water and cant get the windowns down, think a bullet would do the same thing.



han ur right but that's for the side and rear windows


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## Spring Onion

saad445566 said:


> The word you used, _no use_, undermines the spirit of our constitution. Even though, technically you are right, considering history of our government (military and politicians), no one has the right to say _'no use' _
> 
> 
> *Refrain from such comments*.



 ShU


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## SekrutYakhni

Jana said:


> SU



Thank you.

Coming back to the topic, there should be a proper investigation. 
No mud slinging at the U.S. diplomat nor any concession if the diplomat is found guilty under our constitution. 

Were not we surviving on the U.S. aid, the last time I heard or read?
Our military and country?

Do you really think that we can prosecute the diplomat if found guilty?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

pakistanamerican said:


> Same should apply to any one from Pakistan in the USA even its in self defense includeing people that work for the Pakistan embassy or the united nations. Thats only fair.
> 
> UNITED NATIONS, Jan. 7 &#8212; The State Department has asked Pakistan to withdraw the diplomatic immunity of its envoy here, Munir Akram, after New York City prosecutors sought to bring misdemeanor assault charges against him as a result of a quarrel with a woman, United States and New York City officials said today.
> 
> Marjorie Tiven, the city commissioner in charge of United Nations issues, wrote to the United States Mission here on Dec. 26 requesting that the envoy's immunity be removed, according to Edward Skyler, the mayor's spokesman. Mr. Skyler said the Manhattan district attorney's office had advised city officials that it was prepared to prosecute if Mr. Akram's immunity was lifted. Pakistan has not yet informed the United States of any decision.


 
at least i am totally against such immunities but for your kind information there is hell of difference between a quarrel and killing someone. just imagine what would have happened if some PAKISTANI ambassador has killed an american citizen even in doubtless self defence ........


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## Spring Onion

saad445566 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Coming back to the topic, there should be a proper investigation.
> No mud slinging at the U.S. diplomat nor any concession if the diplomat is found guilty under our constitution.
> 
> Were not we surviving on the U.S. aid, the last time I heard or read?
> Our military and country?
> 
> Do you really think that we can prosecute the diplomat if found guilty?



You are contradicting your earlier post and proving my point that no use of the case .


besides NO we are not surviving on US aid.

anyway that is another issue will discuss in separate thread. we can live without it


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Per Jang, a case under Section 302 PPC has been registered.


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## pakistanamerican

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> at least i am totally against such immunities but for your kind information there is hell of difference between a quarrel and killing someone. just imagine what would have happened if some PAKISTANI ambassador has killed an american citizen even in doubtless self defence ........



If the Paikistani ambassador or any one else killed some one in self defense nothing would happen to him the USA. I expect he would be considered a hero. The USA is ruled by law that applies to every one. Does not matter what county you are from or what your religion happens to be.

The senior superintendent of police in Lahore said that two people are confirmed dead, both of whom were reported to be riding motorcycles when the American consulate employee opened fire on them. Eyewitnesses quoted in the local media say the men had been chasing the American's car when the shooting began. Police say they have recovered weapons from the dead men."

Must have just been out for a joy ride with guns for the fun of it chaseing an american, sorry for the mistake.

I guess cutting peoples heads off are makeing americans nervous in Pakistan.
If the police are correct I consider this man a hero.


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## mikkix

Failure of intelligence and beareucracy, offcourse govt.


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## tallboy123

So Wat will happen to him...
Will he be prosecuted......?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

pakistanamerican said:


> If the Paikistani ambassador or any one else killed some in self defense nothing would happen to him the USA. The USA is ruled by law that applies to every one. Does not matter what county you are from or what your religion happens to be.
> 
> The senior superintendent of police in Lahore said that two people are confirmed dead, both of whom were reported to be riding motorcycles when the American consulate employee opened fire on them. Eyewitnesses quoted in the local media say the men had been chasing the American's car when the shooting began. Police say they have recovered weapons from the dead men."
> 
> Must have just been out for a joy ride with guns for the fun of it chaseing an american, sorry for the mistake.
> 
> I guess cutting peoples heads off are makeing americans nervous.



you are in some kind of euphoria about U.S.................. justice ..... i can only laugh


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

tallboy123 said:


> So Wat will happen to him...
> Will he be prosecuted......?



must be............ but


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## SekrutYakhni

Jana said:


> *You are contradicting your earlier post and proving my point that no use of the case .
> *
> 
> besides NO we are not surviving on US aid.
> 
> anyway that is another issue will discuss in separate thread. we can live without it



*"You are contradicting your earlier post and proving my point that no use of the case."*

There is a key difference between your post and mine. You bluntly said, no use--which undermines the spirit of our constitution. 
I merely asked the question.


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## mikkix

The two were not dacoits, media, Express News and ARY.


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## Karachiite

tallboy123 said:


> So Wat will happen to him...
> Will he be prosecuted......?



He will be back to eating burgers at some mcdonald's restaurant in Alabama in a few days.


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## mehru

Thomas said:


> It was your police who called them probable robbers.
> 
> "The senior superintendant of police in Lahore identified the two men shot to death as Faisan Haider and Obaid Ur Rehman, both of whom were reportedly riding motorcycles when the consulate staffer opened fire. Local media quoted witnesses as saying that the men had been "chasing" the American's car when the shooting began, and police said they had recovered weapons carried by the dead men.
> 
> *Police officer Umar Saeed the two men were suspected robbers and that the American shot at them in self-defense* and managed to alert colleagues who were in a vehicle traveling behind him. The vehicle, reportedly a Land Cruiser, hit a passer-by as it rushed to the scene. The pedestrian later died at a Lahore hospital."



Punjab Govt has lashed out at the police for their remarks, calling them irresponsible.


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## mikkix

mehru said:


> Punjab Govt has lashed out at the police for their remarks, calling them irresponsible.



he will allowed to leave pakistan by govt, intelligence.
NO case.


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## mehru

Thomas said:


> So the other witnesses at the scene are lying as well? That and you happen to be 20 yards away and also at the hospital. Plus the police are in some elaborate cover-up lying about the two assailants criminal records? Is it common practice to issue gun licenses to people with criminal records?



One guy who was murdered is identified as Faizan. Police is searching for his criminal record. So far none found. The guy owned a shop. His brother was killed one month ago and because of that he kept a gun with him for his safety. He even went to the hearing of his brother's murder case yesterday. His family was just shown on TV. His mother has lost her senses because of the murder of her second son.I wish you could see that too.

Not trying to be judgmental but obviously truth is something else. 

If you could watch Dunya news(Urdu channel) live streaming then you can witness it yourself.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

mikkix said:


> Failure of intelligence and beareucracy, offcourse govt.



how is it intel failure?

it's a failure of BASIC protocol --possibly with the prodding of the consulate itself

diplomats in Pakistan are not allowed to carry weapons; and given the fact that Pakistan is apparently the most dangerous place in the world, why are they having their diplomats driving around by themselves in cars (with no privacy glass, with FAKE registration & tags)

is this normal to you? 


wipe the a$$ with diplomatic ID card, b/c in my book it means nothing in the face of such an incident.....



and by the way Pakistanis should also be unhappy because goons shouldnt be travelling on motorbikes with concealed weapons


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## mehru

Spitfighter said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. I think the Pakistani police has already verified that he acted in self defense.
> 2. Diplomatic immunity.
> 
> They'll probably just recall the guy, there's no way he's going to be tried in Pakistan.



No. The police is facing the heat right now from Punjab Govt for giving such a irresponsible statement. The guy has no diplomatic immunity. He came on visit visa and if i believe the news right now, he is not even a diplomat.

The guy is booked under section 302. He will be presented before the court tomorrow.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

good....because nothing is more irritating than double standards.


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## mehru

Thomas said:


> you might as well save it. Anti American hysteria fanned by politicians, media, and extremists will always prevail. It doesn't matter what the facts are. the embassy official was guilty the minute he stepped on Pakistan soil. After all the U.S. is the source of all of Pakistan's problems. I'm sure he was there to oversee all blackwater operations. As well as act as Osama bin ladens handler. Oh, and moonlight as an agent of mossad......Am I missing any other possible labels thrown around this website by senior and elite members in times past towards Americans?



Hold your horses man! Court will decide his fate. If he is indeed innocent then he will be set free.

Pakistani Police Charge U.S. Consular Employee With Murder - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty 2011

Initial reports are very strange though.
1. The guy was driving a private car and without any security.
2. He was carrying gun with him.
3. He didn't receive any bullets. I mean he killed single handedly two "dacoits" without getting a scratch.
4. "Robbers" received bullets in the back. (not confirmed) 
5. He came on visit visa.
6. He could speak Urdu fluently. Don't know if it's normal for diplomats.
7. It is rumoured that the guy is not a diplomat.

Does it look like self defence to you?

Obviously you have no idea that what we Pakistanis are going through since this war started. We have become mental patients because of this never ending war. Losing civilians every week will make any nation suspicious and emotional. So bear us for now. Not asking for sympathy just a little understanding.

You talk about Anti American sentiment. You tell me that what is American media or politicians doing? Don't they spew hatred against us day in and day out? Don't they consider every Pakistani a potential terrorist? They portray our country always in a negative way. What do you think that we should get the impression?

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## mikkix

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how is it intel failure?
> 
> it's a failure of BASIC protocol --possibly with the prodding of the consulate itself
> 
> diplomats in Pakistan are not allowed to carry weapons; and given the fact that Pakistan is apparently the most dangerous place in the world, why are they having their diplomats driving around by themselves in cars (with no privacy glass, with FAKE registration & tags)
> 
> is this normal to you?
> 
> 
> wipe the a$$ with diplomatic ID card, b/c in my book it means nothing in the face of such an incident.....
> 
> 
> 
> and by the way Pakistanis should also be unhappy because goons shouldnt be travelling on motorbikes with concealed weapons



The guy that killed named faizan was not a goon, he had a weapon which he carried due to the reason that his brother was killed a month ago and he faced death threats, he had a licensed weapon, wgich allowed under the constitution.

Now, intelligence should watched these beareacrats, where they goes, they met with whom and what they said to whom.
as per your statement of car not having diplomatic number plate is because these guys have been told by the agencies not to travel in a diplomatic car b/c it will react as a catalyst for terrorist to blow them up.
Now they dont have an immunity only when there is a serious case of murder under diplomatic constitution of pakistan and world wide. now the diplomat killed 3 people by firing bullets.
Those pakistanis were not dacoits.
These diplomats were under the investigation of intelligence personnel. i Hope they(intelligence) will not allowed him to go to america without any judicial inquiry. 
AND should be persecuted by the law of the LAnd.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

mikkix said:


> The guy that killed named faizan was not a goon, he had a weapon which he carried due to the reason that his brother was killed a month ago and he faced death threats, he had a licensed weapon, wgich allowed under the constitution.



that is correct, i was not aware of this fact and i thank you for the clarification

was the driver of the motorbike also having a weapon? 

and why were the weapons being revealed in traffic?

--again, i dont have the info and it's hard to sift through fact vs. fiction





> Now, intelligence should watched these beareacrats, where they goes, they met with whom and what they said to whom.
> as per your statement of car not having diplomatic number plate is because these guys have been told by the agencies not to travel in a diplomatic car b/c it will react as a catalyst for terrorist to blow them up.



i have no problem with civilian cars with civilian tags being used for diplomats --especially from western countries

however, fake registration tags and plates to me is not acceptable at all




> Now they dont have an immunity only when there is a serious case of murder under diplomatic constitution of pakistan and world wide. now the diplomat killed 3 people by firing bullets.



2....one was mowed down by that rashly driven Land Cruiser

and they should be held accountable for it.....they should be remanded to court





> Those pakistanis were not dacoits.
> These diplomats were under the investigation of intelligence personnel. i Hope they(intelligence) will not allowed him to go to america without any judicial inquiry.



im now hearing that he wasnt even diplomatic official?

media tends to confuse more than elaborate





> AND should be persecuted by the law of the LAnd.



if he is found of wrong-doing, which I personally feel he has done, then he must be punished as per the dictates of the law of the land



in other words, i agree with most of what u have said

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## mikkix

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *that is correct, i was not aware of this fact and i thank you for the clarification*
> 
> *was the driver of the motorbike also having a weapon? *
> *NOO.*
> *and why were the weapons being revealed in traffic?*
> *police revealed it to show that he is a terrorist.*--again, i dont have the info and it's hard to sift through fact vs. fiction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have no problem with civilian cars with civilian tags being used for diplomats --especially from western countries
> 
> *however, fake registration tags and plates to me is not acceptable at all*
> 
> *RIGHT,.*
> 2....one was mowed down by that rashly driven Land Cruiser
> 
> and they should be held accountable for it.....they should be remanded to court
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> im now hearing that he wasnt even diplomatic official?
> 
> media tends to confuse more than elaborate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if he is found of wrong-doing, which I personally feel he has done, then he must be punished as per the dictates of the law of the land
> 
> 
> 
> in other words, i agree with most of what u have said




Agreed.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Looks like our blood is pretty cheap anybdy can spill it and get away easily.

Thank u GoP and USA.


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## Canadian

dipomats have immunity from proscution. nothuing is going to happen to the americans


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## mikkix

Canadian said:


> dipomats have immunity from proscution. nothuing is going to happen to the americans



Agreed with second one.
But first one was not right.
Diplomats have the immunity for other charges, but by killing someone is not allowed them to be immune under the diplomatic law.


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## TOPGUN

And he was trying to flee.. charge the bastard throw him out of the country hang the bastard do something don't let him get away with this he must pay for killing those poor people and trying to take off jerk.......


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## Developereo

We already know that the police will be under pressure to exonerate the American in order to defuse diplomatic tensions.

Let's compare the American's statements with physical evidence:

- He claims he shot the men as they approached his car, but the men were shot in the back. What kind of robber approaches his victim backwards?

- Are there any slugs in the car seat? If not, the shots were fired from inside.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sohni Dharti said:


> We already know that the police will be under pressure to exonerate the American in order to defuse diplomatic tensions.



i think foreigners in general who drive with fake tags, open fire and kill civilians in the host country is the real ''diplomatic tension'' to begin with

something tells me he didnt even have permission to be operating a motor vehicle in the country





> Let's compare the American's statements with physical evidence:
> 
> - He claims he shot the men as they approached his car, but the men were shot in the back. What kind of robber approaches his victim backwards?



where did you read they were shot in the back?

(not at all arguing, Im just curious where it was stated)




> Are there any slugs in the car seat? If not, the shots were fired from inside.



good point about the slugs....if they were fired from inside the car, they would be on the seat or on the floorboard somewhere


one thing that comes to mind -- why did ''Davis'' have to radio for backup? Was his escort so far back that it had to accelerate the vehicle beyond its capability to catch up (and run down innocent pedestrian in the process)

this must be addressed....if that escort were a lot closer, maybe he would have been in position to ram the bike or at least block it from getting near the man's Civic



and I ask again -- why would some gora be driving around in this car with no privacy glass? 

these embassies spend tens of millions of dollars in security, given the security concerns encompassing Pakistan; and even then they are sending or allowing Americans to drive in places that are totally unfamiliar to them? 

where were they coming from and what was their destination; and why wasn't state-provided security measures provided to them

seems that Qadri-Taseer incident has gotten them even more paranoid than ever....in which case, by all means they can opt to not have state-provided protection;

however -- foreigners in Pakistan are NOT ALLOWED to carry weapons


even Americans or Europeans of Pakistani origin are not allowed to register or carry arms; neither should people like ''Davis'' and his friends.


where is ''Davis'' being held at this time? Is he still in custody?


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## logic

This maniac shot dead two innocent guys on the bike.
The gun in question carried by the guy on the bike was licensed.

This guy was not shot upon a single time. He fired multiple shots at least one of them being head shot. He was so afraid for his life he started parading at the crime scene taking pictures and calling for help.

His goons arrived in a Land Cruiser probably bullet proof crushing a guy to death on a bike while jumping the red light.

The guys on the land cruiser escaped while the Shooter was stooped by people on a food street that was not a through fare. Shop keepers and local people stood there ground against this manic.

This maniac should be tried under the constitution of Pakistan.

Afia is thrown into prison for all her life while she was charged with pulling gun at the goons and failing to do any real damage.

According to Government officials this maniac is in police custody facing multiple murder charges while request has been made for the hand over of the driver of the land cruiser in question.


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## mikkix




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## mikkix

The Skeptical Bureaucrat


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## Missing.Pieces

I hope truth becomes separate from lies, like day is separate from night.

and

True Justice will prevail.

Ameen


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## Abu Zolfiqar

logic said:


> The guys on the land cruiser escaped while the Shooter was stooped by people on a food street that was not a through fare. Shop keepers and local people stood there ground against this manic.



did they leave from the scene and leave him behind???

are you sure? I dont think they would do that.

in fact, it's a miracle that some angry overly-emotional locals didn't thrash the hell out of him. 

a lot of people are a bit 'on edge' nowdays --especially after recent Lahore bombing(s)


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## logic

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> did they leave from the scene and leave him behind???
> 
> are you sure? I dont think they would do that.
> 
> in fact, it's a miracle that some angry overly-emotional locals didn't thrash the hell out of him.
> 
> a lot of people are a bit 'on edge' nowdays --especially after recent Lahore bombing(s)



Sir there are two exits toward the right if you observer the crime scene from Shezan bakery's side. the Land Cruiser went towrds the road that leads to Chuburji while the guy in the civic drove toward old anarkali and ended up on the food street just past the FALUDA shops.

No one dare attack him because he had multiple Automatic weapons recovered by the police. he posed guns at police officers pushing them off his cars and threatening all civilians that approached him to pursuade him to surrender and end his rampage.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

are you certain he pointed weapons at law enforcement personnel or is that media rumour?


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## pak-marine

Lock him up , the case for shooting can be investigated however this guy still drove dangerously and took lives of a bystander and injured another .


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## logic

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are you certain he pointed weapons at law enforcement personnel or is that media rumour?



Sir switch on the telly they are showing multiple footage of the crime. He did pose guns at all people civilian or police or trafic wardens.

He was like a bloody Rambo on the streets of down town Lahore.

The GOOD NEWS IS THAT THIS GUY IS IN POLICE CUSTODY While facing MULTIPLE MURDER CHARGES UNDER constitutional provision 302. Government of Punjab has request US local embassy to handover the Land Cruiser driver that crushed a local on a bike while seriously injuring four others.

A trial awaits while US has said they will cooperate with any investigations.


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## sergente rehan

We all know the end result:

This as****e murderer will get away without any charge. Maybe the U.S will come up with some credible story but the facts already shows what's the real truth.

The best solution was an encounter, Police could shot him down at the spot as he was pointing the arms at law enforcing agencies.


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## pakistanamerican

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> you are in some kind of euphoria about U.S.................. justice ..... i can only laugh



You might laugh but USA is not consider to have one of the worse justice and human rights record on the planet.

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## TarikhiMusalman

The two boys on the motor bike were not robbbers, the gun they had was for their safety as they were returning from judicial courts. The American who shot them was a commando, which is confirmed by the media reports most probably of Blackwater. 

A heart-rending incident, may Allah bless the victims and curse the Americans and our good for nothing politicians!


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

seriously...disappointed to the core....


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## American Eagle

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Bloody bullshyt!



You must be looking in a mirror.

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## Pak_Sher

Irregardless of the situation. No diplomats should be allowed to carry illegl weapons. Americans are sneaking in weapons in their luggage under diplomatic immunity and this abuse can only be stopped by starting to check their luggage. Though it may be not the norm but diplomats smuggling undocumented weapons under the cover of US Government is not the norm either.

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## Pak_Sher

On thing to add during the prosecution we do have to look at that fact if the US Employee was in a bullet proof car or a normal car. That could have an impact on the verdict. If he was in a normal car and the guys pulled a gun on him, that is a totally different scenario.


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## Roybot

Good God 21 pages of seething comments, my eyes are burning after reading all the comments. You guys really hate the Americans don't you. The threads about the blast in Lahore and Karachi few days ago got 4 pages each. Somehow an American consulate worker killing 3 people (unprovoked or not) makes your blood boil but suicide bombers killing innocent Pakistanis is not as bad as this?

One of you said how the two men riding the bike were carrying pistols for self defense. So a common Pakistani citizen can carry a gun for self defense but an American Consulate staff can't? Would you guys react in the same way if a Pakistani consulate worker had done the same in America? Would the Americans react in the same way? I doubt it, wait for the investigations to conclude at least, but you don't even trust your own government or police.

I understand the situation in Pakistan is a bit edgy these days, but don't let paranoia take over logic and reasoning. Sorry if this comment offends you guys, cut me some slack and let me know , I will delete it.

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## Developereo

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> where did you read they were shot in the back?



From this post:



RescueRanger said:


> 8 Bullet wounds to the rear of the 1st Rider
> 
> 4 Bullet wounds to t
> he rear of the pillion + 1 to the head.
> 
> ( How is shooting someone in the back "self defence"...They were escaping).





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> good point about the slugs....if they were fired from inside the car, they would be on the seat or on the floorboard somewhere



Exactly. Let's let the physical evidence decide who is telling the truth.



logic said:


> His goons arrived in a Land Cruiser probably bullet proof crushing a guy to death on a bike while jumping the red light.
> 
> The guys on the land cruiser escaped while the Shooter was stooped by people on a food street that was not a through fare.



This doesn't make sense. If he called the SUV and they rushed to help him (killing a boy along the way), why did they escape leaving him behind to the mob?

This is more consistent with the alleged eye-witness account by this poster:



redgriffin said:


> To all the bloody yanks over here, I was there ok I'm an eye witness. I was buying lunch in a bakery (Niralla Jail road) in front of which your trigger happy assole gunned down 2 innocent boys after another bunch of *your baastard countrymen ran over a guy on a bike and these two boys tried to stop that Prado along with other people and traffic wardens when that guy in the white civic opened fire on them. *



Again, I am not saying who is telling the truth. Only corroborating statements with physical evidence.


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## American Eagle

Of course from the outset an official investigation has not been completed and all results publicized...but people who seem to relish being in the negative limelight of terrorism need to face a few "hard facts"

1. *



One day earlier there was an al Qaida terrorist suicide bombing in Lahore

Click to expand...

* where Pakistani innocents were killed by a suicide bomber. *



Where are the regrets, lamentations and damn the murderers remarks from these quick shot out of country know it alls for the day earlier terrorist Muslims suicide bombing other innocent Pakistani peaceful Muslims?

Click to expand...

*
2. *



Posting # 62 in this now very long Thread says that 2 pistols were recovered from the two motor cyclists...quoting Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tarin.

Click to expand...

* That is not some crackpot statement from overseas outside Pakistan folks but from the same Police Chief who had to deal with al Qaida bombing there in Lahore just the day before this shooting episode.

3. *



Posting # 76 tells the person who takes time to read it that the motor cyclists pistol was a Marakov 32, which is a typical weapon used by al Qaida.

Click to expand...

*
*



4. Postings 241 and 242 in this long Thread have the photo, same photo in two separate postings, of bullet holes fired into the American's vehicle.

Click to expand...

* The bullet holes prove shots were fire *into* the American vehicle, as the windshield is indented. Windshield is pushed in, not pushed out, by shots fired by the cyclist terrorists, al Qaida thugs.

The alleged second car alleged to have been in caravan with the first American's vehicle ramed a third motor cyclist...*



details of third cyclists violence against the first or second US car/vehicles is now being investigated.

Click to expand...

*
Yesterday Pakistanis were murdered in both Lahore and Karachi, next day, today by my clock, Lahore al Qaida terrorists...using terrorist known Marakov 32 pistols of preference to al Qaida terrorists...try to kill American(s).

*



It is ludicrous to say the first two cyclists were "carrying pistols as officers of the courts for security." That is preposterous.

Click to expand...

*
The American was carrying a gun for self defense, personal security, this is a correct statement. The other statement is just mad info made up to stir up falsehoods and create momentary animosity among Pakistanis.

Educated out of country folks not only need to cool it. They need to be quiet and let those inside Pakistan do a proper investigation and then the proper in country Pakistani officials and police will report to the entire world all of the facts...which facts are not created by all the blather on this site thus far by quick shot "hang 'em high" trouble makers.


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## American Eagle

Of course from the outset an official investigation has not been completed and all results publicized...but people who seem to relish being in the negative limelight of terrorism need to face a few hard facts"

1. One day earlier there was an al Qaida terrorist suicide bombing in Lahore where innocents were killed by a suicide bomber.

2. Posting # 62 in this now very long Thread says that 2 pistols were recovered from the two motor cyclists...quoting Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tarin. That is no some crackpot statement from overseas outside Pakistan but from the same Police Chief who had to deal with al Qaida bombing there in Lahore just the day before this shooting episode.

3. Posting # 76 tells the person who takes time to read it that the motor cyclists pistol was a Marakov 32, which is a typical weapon used by al Qaida.

4. Postings 241 and 242 in this long Thread have the photo, same photo in two separate postings, of bullet holes fired into the American's vehicle.

The bullet holes prove shots were fire *into* the American vehicle, as the windshield is indented.

The alleged second car alleged to have been in caravan with the first American's vehicle ramed a third motor cyclist whose details of his violence against the first or second US car/vehicles is now being investigated.

Yesterday Pakistanis were murdered in both Lahore and Karachi, next day, today by my clock, Lahore al Qaida terrorists...using terrorist known pistols of preference...try to kill American(s).

It is ludicrous to say the first two cyclists were "carrying pistols as officers of the courts for security." That is preposterous.

The American was carrying a gun for self defense, personal security, this is a correct statement. The other statement is just mad info made up to stir up falsehoods and create momentary animosity among Pakistanis.

Educated out of country folks not only need to cool it. They need to be quiet and let those inside Pakistan do a proper investigation and then they will report to the entire world all of the facts...which facts are not created by all the blather on this site thus far from quick shot "hang 'em high" trouble makers.

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## Pak_Sher

Do read #305.


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## American Eagle

Pak_Sher said:


> Do read #305.



#305 is an opinion, not a fact.

When I lived and worked in then West Pakistan, 1963-65 folks all over the nation were armed, more visibly in the North than down South in Karachi, but anyone preferring personal security and safety had all the weapons they wanted or needed...as remains the case today.

Ms. Bhutto was shot at..and missed, killed instead by a bomb causing her to hit her head, breaking open her skull, a mortal, instant death wounding.

See transcript from Rawalpindi I received at that time giving Ms. Bhutto's autopsy report.

And where are the cries over the many Pakistanis murdered by al Qaida suicide bombers a day earlier in Lahore and Karachi?


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## Pak_Sher

roy_gourav said:


> Good God 21 pages of seething comments, my eyes are burning after reading all the comments. You guys really hate the Americans don't you.



Eyes are burning use Visine. We do not hate the Americans, but illegal weapons need to be traced especially if diplomats have them. 

There may be millions of criminals in the US, but it does not give the right to any diplomat in the US to go on a shooting spree. We can piss and mone all night long, but we do not know all the facts, if the US vehicle was cornered or had no chance of escaping.

On the other hand in Islam people of foreign lands should be our guests and if the robberers were trying to rob a foreign diplomat that is a sin and crime. Crime against any innocent tourist needs to be dealt with severly.

If after the investigation it is proven that it was self defence then we can forgive the American. But guys just chill and do not let trollers derail the thread.

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## somebozo

This American should hanged on terrorism charges if their claims are false. Zardari has sold the soul of the country! So much for democracy!


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## Pak_Sher

somebozo said:


> This American should hanged on terrorism charges. Zardari has sold the soul of the country! So much for democracy!



I understand the emotion my dear member, but as a nation we need to think. Zardari screw him. 

If someone was to say to forgive the diplomat in return for all the lives saved by the US Servicemen during the floods and earthquake, what would you say?

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## Roybot

Pak_Sher said:


> Eyes are burning use Visine. We do not hate the Americans, but illegal weapons need to be traced especially if diplomats have them.
> 
> If after the investigation it is proven that it was self defence then we can forgive the American. But guys just chill and do not let trollers derail the thread.



Thats exactly what i was trying to say, don't let people with deep rooted hate for America hijack this incident and play with people's emotion. I mean someone posted asking for Sialkot style mob justice 

Let the investigations conclude, have some faith in your government and police system. BTW it should also be found out, if the guns carried by the guys on the bike(if any) were licensed or illegal.


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## Majnun

Crowds showed control this time and didn't do anything to the man and he stayed in police custody and this is what happens? He gets away with it?


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## Majnun

roy_gourav said:


> Thats exactly what i was trying to say, don't let people with deep rooted hate for America hijack this incident and play with people's emotion. I mean someone posted asking for Sialkot style mob justice
> 
> Let the investigations conclude, have some faith in your government and police system. BTW it should also be found out, if the guns carried by the guys on the bike(if any) were licensed or illegal.





This time there was no Sialkot style killing and the man gets away with murder.


----------



## Developereo

roy_gourav said:


> You guys really hate the Americans don't you.



And you guys hate Pakistanis. Viscerally.

Whenever there is bad news about Pakistanis getting killed, you guys show up to gloat like vultures.



roy_gourav said:


> So a common Pakistani citizen can carry a gun for self defense but an American Consulate staff can't?



Apparently, that's the law of the land. The law is not up for debate.



American Eagle said:


> 1. One day earlier there was an al Qaida terrorist suicide bombing in Lahore where innocents were killed by a suicide bomber.



And what's the relevance of that? That's right. Absolutely none.

By your logic, it's hunting season for every trigger-happy GI Joe-wannabe.



American Eagle said:


> 2. Posting # 62 in this now very long Thread says that 2 pistols were recovered from the two motor cyclists...quoting Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tarin.



Carrying licensed firearms is not a crime. Otherwise we should start shooting at every pickup truck in Texas.



American Eagle said:


> 3. Posting # 76 tells the person who takes time to read it that the motor cyclists pistol was a Marakov 32, which is a typical weapon used by al Qaida.



So? It could just mean it is a good weapon.



American Eagle said:


> 4. Postings 241 and 242 in this long Thread have the photo, same photo in two separate postings, of bullet holes fired into the American's vehicle.
> 
> The bullet holes prove shots were fire *into* the American vehicle, as the windshield is indented.



Let's let the forensics investigators decide where the shots came from.



American Eagle said:


> The alleged second car alleged to have been in caravan with the first American's vehicle ramed a third motor cyclist whose details of his violence against the first or second US car/vehicles is now being investigated.



It was a pedestrian. Where are you dreaming up all this stuff?



American Eagle said:


> Yesterday Pakistanis were murdered in both Lahore and Karachi, next day, today by my clock, Lahore al Qaida terrorists...using terrorist known pistols of preference...try to kill American(s).



Oh please!

In a thread full of long shot claims, this qualifies as the silliest and most ridiculous.



American Eagle said:


> It is ludicrous to say the first two cyclists were "carrying pistols as officers of the courts for security." That is preposterous.



Nobody's claiming that they were 'officers of the courts'. You just made that up.



American Eagle said:


> The American was carrying a gun for self defense, personal security, this is a correct statement.



Apparently that is against both Pakistani law and US embassy policy.



American Eagle said:


> And where are the cries over the many Pakistanis murdered by al Qaida suicide bombers a day earlier in Lahore and Karachi?



_Non sequitur._

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## Dance

Sohni Dharti said:


> And you guys hate Pakistanis. Viscerally.
> 
> Whenever there is bad news about Pakistanis getting killed, you guys show up to gloat like vultures.



Seriously! I'm sure if the same thing happened in india, these people would not being saying what they are now. Instead of saying constructive things, they are taking stupid jabs.


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## Xestan

Check this out...

I strongly doubt that the weapon recovered from the dead guy was REALLY his..


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## Roybot

Sohni Dharti said:


> And you guys hate Pakistanis. Viscerally.
> 
> Whenever there is bad news about Pakistanis getting killed, you guys show up to gloat like vultures.



Am not that sort of person maybe you are. And i did say if any of you found my post offensive and uncalled for, let me know and i'll delete it. The ease with which you generalize 1.3 Billion people is astonishing to say the least.



> Apparently, that's the law of the land. The law is not up for debate.



Think about the repercussions, if the guys on the motorbike were assassins and had killed the American consulate worker. 

Anyways i 'll leave you guys to it and go be a vulture somewhere else

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## American Eagle

Well we now have a guy who ignores all the solid facts on record thus far and says it ain't so because he wants to self promote a totally false scenario...despite the hard facts developed by the police thus ar.

This is the sort of nut case "facts" that cause many good Pakistanis who are mere bystanders to be treated as uncreditable as this guy is flatly off the map and will not face up to the few hard established facts thus far...as facts, explaing terrorist connections.

Shame as you harm the patient wait and see what the facts are credibility of so many good and honest, well educated Pakitanis who are tagged with you falsehoods and blather.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

seems that some apologists in here want to bring up incidents of terrorism in order to deflect attention from this crime (yes crime)

deflection and distraction tactics wont work anymore....FYI

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## RescueRanger

At times like this you really know who your friends are. Whilst the apologists here are trying to pull bunny rabbits from magical hats to deflect attention from the gravity of the crime. 

Just this morning i got an email from an American Course Mate from our USAR course at Miami Dade Fire are Rescue, and as per him the greatest justice would have been to allow this guy to stand trial and prove his innocence or guilt, by hiding him like a thief they have only further tarnished their reputation. 

At least some out there have commonsense. 

As for the illustrious guests on our forum. Mods please take notice there is derailment by some very senior members here.

--Update--

Davis will be produced in court today. - Source Dawn.TV

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## RescueRanger

> LAHORE: A US consulate worker and killer of two Pakistani men, Raymond Davis will be produced in court on charges of shooting dead two persons in a busy bazaar in Lahore, Geo News reported.
> 
> It is pertinent to mention that yesterday after noon, a US consulate official was arrested for slaying two innocent citizens Faheem and Faizan Haider by shooting the duo.
> 
> The FIR had been lodged under section 48/11, police sources told media.
> 
> The accused American, Raymond Davis, will be presented before a civil judge in a Town court.


US killer to be produced in court today



> In Lahore, a US consular worker was charged with the murder of two Pakistani men following American&#8217;s shooting in a busy street, a provincial minister said.
> 
> The American man told police he shot the two motorcycle riders in self-defense after they pulled a pistol on him in an attempted robbery, police officials told media.
> 
> Crowley gave few details of the event, but confirmed that an American civilian working for the US consulate in Lahore was "involved in an incident," while declining to identify the individual.
> 
> "There's a Pakistan investigation. We will cooperate fully," he said.



Key Word "Civilian"... Note, not "official".
US seeks to avoid backlash from Pak shooting


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## Developereo

roy_gourav said:


> The ease with which you generalize 1.3 Billion people is astonishing to say the least.



Relax, I was talking about Indians on PDF.


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## SpArK

It now seems from the witness videos that it was not indeed a robbery attempt but a murder on the streets by a paranoid american. 

Americans are known for their cunningness to defend their citizens where ever they are and on whatever they do . They are likely to pressurize the government and fly this "criminal' back home..

sad but true.

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## RescueRanger

SpArK said:


> It now seems from the witness videos that it was not indeed a robbery attempt but a murder on the streets by a paranoid american.
> 
> Americans are known for their cunningness to defend their citizens where ever they are and on whatever they do . They are likely to pressurize the government and fly this "criminal' back home..
> 
> sad but true.



Indeed, sad but true. Washington has a lot of damage control to do now considering they want Islamabad to step up the operations in Feb... 

I can see a lot of cheap politicians on both sides using this to their advantage. Shame those three became mere statistics once again. Life here is truly meaningless.

Added to my spreadsheet.. 29,109 Pakistanis dead and counting...


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## Developereo

SpArK said:


> Americans are known for their cunningness to defend their citizens where ever they are and on whatever they do



One of my American friends claimed a cop once told him, "If you ever shoot a burglar in your house, make sure to put a knife in his hand. That way you can plead self-defence."

PS. I am not saying this guy here put a pistol in the victims' hands. Simply the part about pleading self-defence.


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## SpArK

RescueRanger said:


> Indeed, sad but true. Washington has a lot of damage control to do now considering they want Islamabad to step up the operations in Feb...
> 
> I can see a lot of cheap politicians on both sides using this to their advantage. Shame those three became mere statistics once again. Life here is truly meaningless.
> 
> Added to my spreadsheet.. 29,109 Pakistanis dead and counting...



We know it more than you do.. We tried to extradite the main accused int the Bhopal tragedy case to India for trials and US hit back with the line ' pursuing the Bhopal case might have a chilling effect on US investment.". Also the United States State Department said the Bhopal gas tragedy case is legally closed.

Even though this is not a similar case, but it proves how the US go to any extend to defend its citizens.

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## RescueRanger

Sohni Dharti said:


> One of my American friends claimed a cop once told him, "If you ever shoot a burglar in your house, make sure to put a knife in his hand. That way you can claim self-defence."



Lol yar that's nothing. Shoot someone in Pakistan, pay the responding cops a few hundred k and they will plant an entire arsenal on the poor sod and when his relatives come to seek justice they will lock up those innocent, unsuspecting lot and implicate them in some grand robbery scheme. 

By the time they are done with the Thana/Kachari they will be in their 50's and probably dead. 

So much for "protect and serve".

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## Majnun

US official guns down two motorcyclists in Lahore | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



> LAHORE: A US Consulate employee allegedly shot at and killed two young motorcyclists here on Thursday, while another motorcyclist was run over by his colleagues riding another car, police and witnesses said.
> 
> Raymond David told police that he had opened fire in self-defence. Quoting the accused, police said the car that crushed the motorcyclist had come to Qurtaba Chowk, the place of incident, in order to rescue him (David). The rashly driven Prado crossed the median on Jail Road, ran over the young motorcyclist and disappeared in a flash, a witness said.
> 
> Raymond David also fled the scene, but two traffic wardens chased and overpowered him in Old Anarkali Food Street and handed him over to police, Chief Traffic Officer Ahmad Mobeen told Dawn.
> 
> More than 100 people blocked the road after the incident by setting tyres on fire to protest the killing. The protest later moved to picket the police station where the car involved in the incident was impounded.
> 
> Police recovered from his possession a 9mm Glock pistol he had used to shoot the youngsters and shifted him to the South Cantonment police station.
> 
> A senior police officer told Dawn that Raymond David was among four people who were detained by security personnel near Lahores Sherpao Bridge on Dec 9, 2009, when they were trying to enter the Cantonment area in a vehicle with tinted glasses. They were armed with sophisticated weapons. The intervention of the US consulate led to their release, the officer recalled.
> 
> No member of a diplomatic mission in a country is allowed to carry arms.
> 
> Only security personnel are permitted to do so and that too after informing the local security authorities in advance regarding their movement, he said.
> 
> Civil Lines Division SP Umer Saeed said the arrested US Consulate employee was not carrying any licence for the weapon recovered from his possession.
> 
> Quoting the suspect, the SP said he was being chased by the armed motorcyclists. As soon as he reached Qurtaba Chowk, one of them tried to kill him, he told the police.
> 
> Preliminarily investigation suggested that as the motorcyclists wanted to mug the foreigner, he killed them in self-defence, the SP said, adding that one of the two was identified as Faizan Haider of Ravi Road.
> 
> Mohammad Ramzan, a salesman at a shop on Jail Road, told Dawn that he saw a foreigner leaving his Honda car in a hurry and with a pistol in his hand. Within seconds he trained his gun at two motorcyclists standing at the Qurtaba Chowk traffic signal and opened fire, he said.
> 
> Both the youngsters suffered multiple injuries and fell on the road. The foreigner immediately drove away his car towards Mozang Chowk.
> 
> One of the motorcyclists died on the spot while the other in Services Hospital. SP Umar Saeed said the motorcyclists were also carrying pistols at that time. He denied reports about the cross-fire and said police also recovered two pistols from the place. The other motorcyclist, who was run over by the colleagues of David, was identified as Ibadur Rehman, of Gulshan-i-Ravi. He ran a cosmetics shop at Auriga Complex in Gulberg.
> 
> The police sent the bodies of three men to the city morgue for autopsy.
> 
> No case was registered till the filing of this report.
> 
> Amjad Mahmood adds: Raymond David was shifted to the US Consulate on the directives of provincial authorities.
> 
> Punjab government sources said that immediately after the arrest of David, police authorities informed Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif and sought instructions for further action. The sources said the chief minister discussed the issue with Consul General Carmila Conroy and directed police to shift Mr David to the consulate.
> 
> Anarkali DSP Safdar Raza Kazmi took David in his vehicle to the consulate, although police were claiming that he was lodged in the North Cantonment police station.
> 
> Efforts to obtain the version of Punjab government spokesman Senator Pervaiz Rashid were in vain.
> 
> A senior police officer said Mr David, a technical officer of the US consulate in Lahore, had spent two years in Afghanistan and was well-trained to combat any critical situation.
> 
> As soon as one of the motorcyclists drew pistol, he acted within seconds, targeting him with four shots. He then fired three shots at his companion.
> 
> Of the seven shots, the police officer added, he missed only one as police found six shells he fired form his pistol.
> 
> He said the Prado used by Davids other colleagues bore a fake registration number (LZN-6970) which was originally issued to a Suzuki Cultus car. He said the police record had confirmed that Faizan Haider was involved in dacoities.
> 
> Meanwhile, on the complaint of Imran Haider, a brother of Faizan Haider, Lytton Road police registered a murder case against David. On another complaint, police registered a case against unknown occupants of the Prado which caused the death of Ibadur Rehman.

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## American Eagle

I had already read this story in DAWN but thanks for posting it.

You might also want to read the story in today's Peshawar FRONTIER POST which while typically somewhat convoluted ends up admitting that the shooters attacked the American first, not the other way around.

I made a memory mistake when referring to a third cyclist, and I apologize for misremembering that point.

However I did not misremember the day before terrorist suicide bombing deaths and wounded right there in Lahore, which no one today or in the succeeding two days seems to be bothered about vs. trying to blame an American for defending himself. Logical of picking and choosing and as I used to experience in Pakistan of old (West Pakistan) flatly making it up to suit preconceived hate object lessons actually is pretty much to pattern and is a sad commentary as I had thought some younger Pakistanis were getting better, broader, and more objective educations in Paksitan and overseas as well.


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## mughaljee

any Pakistani forigen Officials man can carry guns in any country of the World like they (USA) doing. ?


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## sh72011

an unnamed police officer said the gora seemed triger-happy person who shot indiscriminately 8 bullets in chest of one and 5 in other then got out of the car nad made vedio on his mobile till the rescue from his ome came and drove in one way traffic killing the only bread earner of old lady. Yeh what will we do? news from media lahore were he was flown back to islamabads safe haven while one of local tv says he is appearing before the court. How much more shameless can we become is to see I thought we had hit the rock bottom!


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## Majnun

American Eagle said:


> I had already read this story in DAWN but thanks for posting it.
> 
> You might also want to read the story in today's Peshawar FRONTIER POST which while typically somewhat convoluted ends up admitting that the shooters attacked the American first, not the other way around.
> 
> I made a memory mistake when referring to a third cyclist, and I apologize for misremembering that point.
> 
> However I did not misremember the day before terrorist suicide bombing deaths and wounded right there in Lahore, which no one today or in the succeeding two days seems to be bothered about vs. trying to blame an American for defending himself. Logical of picking and choosing and as I used to experience in Pakistan of old (West Pakistan) flatly making it up to suit preconceived hate object lessons actually is pretty much to pattern and is a sad commentary as I had thought some younger Pakistanis were getting better, broader, and more objective educations in Paksitan and overseas as well.





The difference between this and that is that in this case the killer is being let off after having been caught, because he is an American. In the other case, of the bombings in Karachi and Lahore, the killer wasn't caught and released. Other than that, you will find people unhappy about the freedom with which those preaching violence roam.


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## humanfirst

Let the american guy face trials and prove his innocence-that he was only acting in self defence.

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## mehru

roy_gourav said:


> Good God 21 pages of seething comments, my eyes are burning after reading all the comments. You guys really hate the Americans don't you. The threads about the blast in Lahore and Karachi few days ago got 4 pages each. Somehow an American consulate worker killing 3 people (unprovoked or not) makes your blood boil but suicide bombers killing innocent Pakistanis is not as bad as this?
> 
> One of you said how the two men riding the bike were carrying pistols for self defense. So a common Pakistani citizen can carry a gun for self defense but an American Consulate staff can't? Would you guys react in the same way if a Pakistani consulate worker had done the same in America? Would the Americans react in the same way? I doubt it, wait for the investigations to conclude at least, but you don't even trust your own government or police.
> 
> I understand the situation in Pakistan is a bit edgy these days, but don't let paranoia take over logic and reasoning. Sorry if this comment offends you guys, cut me some slack and let me know , I will delete it.



It's a murder case, not a terrorism case. In case of bomb blasts, if you are counting the pages then let me remind you that Data darbar bombings got 45 pages. I didn't know that the number of pages show someone's concern. A very strange logic.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...st-crowded-daata-darbar-shrine-lahore-45.html

Coming back to the topic, it is true that some Pakistanis are acting emotionally because they are from the victim's side. I think it's natural and expected. It's wrong to judge someone's intentions in anger.


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## mehru

*


Abu Zolfiqar said:



where did you read they were shot in the back?

(not at all arguing, Im just curious where it was stated)

Click to expand...

*


Abu Zolfiqar said:


> It came on the local news channel quoting hospital authorities. Still it doesn't prove anything. Thorough investigation is needed. Wait for the medical report.
> 
> *Meanwhile a Private TV channel quoting hospital sources informed that one killed person sustained 6 bullets in back, while the other one was hit with one frontal and three rear bullet hits. *
> 
> ONLINE - International News Network


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## Hawk Eyes

this is a r.a.w conspiracy.

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## Hawk Eyes

28 January 2011 Last updated at 03:16 ET 

US official Raymond David on Lahore murder charge

*A US consular employee has been charged with murder after two motorcyclists were shot dead on a busy street in the Pakistani city of Lahore, police say.*

Raymond David reportedly said he fired his gun in self-defence because the men were pursuing him in his car.

Another person was run over and killed by a vehicle carrying Mr David's colleagues as they came to his aid, police and witnesses said.

Mr David is expected in court later in the Punjab province capital.

Lahore's police chief, Aslam Tareen, told the BBC Mr David was employed on "security duties" in the consulate. 

Protests

*He did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms, according to the Pakistani authorities.*

Mr Tareen said a Glock pistol had been recovered from Mr David and that pistols had also been found on the two men shot dead. 

Mr David said in a statement that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint, according to police.

The US embassy in Islamabad has confirmed the man involved was a consular official but has not specified his role.

The funerals of the three people killed in the incident are expected to take place later on Friday. 

More than 100 protesters blocked the road in the aftermath of Thursday's incident, setting tyres ablaze.

Demonstrators later gathered outside the police station where the foreigner's car - a white Honda Civic with a Lahore registration plate - was impounded.

Details of the shooting are still unclear, but a salesman, Mohammad Ramzan, told Dawn newspaper that he had seen a foreigner rushing from a car holding a gun. 

"Within seconds he trained his gun at two motorcyclists standing at the Qurtaba Chowk traffic signal and opened fire," Mr Ramzan said.

Police said that the foreigner had used a radio to call colleagues for help immediately after the shooting - and that a second consular car turned up to rescue him. 

It is believed the third person killed was run over by the vehicle as it sped to his aid.

The foreigner had tried to flee the scene, but two traffic wardens chased and detained him nearby before handing him over to police, chief traffic officer Ahmad Mobeen told Dawn.

The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Pakistan says that the incident could worsen anti-American sentiment in Pakistan.

"We want to make sure that a tragedy like this does not affect the strategic partnership that we're building with Pakistan," state department spokesman Philip Crowley told journalists in Washington.

"And we'll work as hard as we can to explain that to the Pakistani people."

BBC News - US official Raymond David on Lahore murder charge


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## Hawk Eyes

^^^The shooter Raymond David is Jewish.


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## mehru

American Eagle said:


> I had already read this story in DAWN but thanks for posting it.
> 
> You might also want to read the story in today's Peshawar FRONTIER POST which while typically somewhat convoluted ends up admitting that the shooters attacked the American first, not the other way around.
> 
> I made a memory mistake when referring to a third cyclist, and I apologize for misremembering that point.
> 
> However I did not misremember the day before terrorist suicide bombing deaths and wounded right there in Lahore, which no one today or in the succeeding two days seems to be bothered about vs. trying to blame an American for defending himself. Logical of picking and choosing and as I used to experience in Pakistan of old (West Pakistan) flatly making it up to suit preconceived hate object lessons actually is pretty much to pattern and is a sad commentary as I had thought some younger Pakistanis were getting better, broader, and more objective educations in Paksitan and overseas as well.



Please read this version too
American Rambo goes berserk in City | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

According to Police, Faizan didn't fire a single shot.

I think that you are referring to this newspaper.

The Frontier Post

Superintendent of Police Umer Saeed is actually repeating what Davis told him. Look in other news resources. You will get the idea. There are no investigations done in this case. Umar Saeed even faced heat from Punjab Govt for giving such a statement before investigation.

It is important to mention here that Dawn, Nation and The News are considered credible news resources in Pakistan.

In the end, beleive what you want to beleive but i think it's better if Davis proves his innocence in the court. In this way, no harm will done and people will be satisfied. I hope you will agree too.


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## mehru

Hawk Eyes said:


> this is a r.a.w conspiracy.



Seriously man! Stop embarrassing your fellow Pakistanis. Statements such as these will give others an excuse that Pakistanis believe in conspiracy theories more than facts.

Edit your posts kindly.

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## pakdefender

Well done to the traffic wardens who chased down this murderous thug and aprehended him , now justice must be done.


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## Hawk Eyes

mehru said:


> Seriously man! Stop embarrassing your fellow Pakistanis. Statements such as these will give others an excuse that Pakistanis believe in conspiracy theories more than facts.
> 
> Edit your posts kindly.



oh shut up, i was kidding.  any dim-witted moron would realize this. 


and its not like r.a.w. doesn't do any damage to Pakistan...who was the driving force behind the Bengali Liberation in 71? Or have you been fooled into thinking r.a.w. personnel just sit in their office and drink tea all day and never once think about doing harm to Pakistan. don't fall prey to reverse psychology.






back to topic.


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## Spring Onion

SpArK said:


> It now seems from the witness videos that it was not indeed a robbery attempt but a murder on the streets by a paranoid american.
> 
> Americans are known for their cunningness to defend their citizens where ever they are and on whatever they do . They are likely to pressurize the government and fly this "criminal' back home..
> 
> sad but true.



Alas still some so-called high level retired army officers from US army still trying to come up with lame excuses and some of his apologists from our neighbourhood are also backing the facepalms


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## pakdefender

This american is clearly a lier , the place where this happened ( in Mozzang ) the traffic almost travels bumper to bumper and saying that these motor cyclists were 'tailing' him is just hog wash as almost all vehicles will apear to tail each other.

Let this be a test for the Justice system of Pakistan.


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## Spring Onion

mughaljee said:


> any Pakistani forigen Officials man can carry guns in any country of the World like they (USA) doing. ?



*Rehman Malik today is quoted by News Channels saying NO Foreigner is allowed to carry weapons in Pakistan.
*


The American killer/s could not be produced in Court as time was finished.


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## pakdefender

The vehicle these thugs were driving had FAKE number plates! 

*US consulate car had fake number plate: probe *

US consulate car had fake number plate: probe


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## pakdefender

If this guy is let off without proper sentencing then next time the mob shoud catch these thugs and finish them off right there at the spot


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## Spring Onion

pakdefender said:


> The vehicle these thugs were driving had FAKE number plates!
> 
> *US consulate car had fake number plate: probe *
> 
> US consulate car had fake number plate: probe




its nothing new. blackwater terrorists are using fake number plates in Pakistan in the garb of diplomats

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## mehru

Hawk Eyes said:


> oh shut up, i was kidding.  any dim-witted moron would realize this.
> 
> 
> and its not like r.a.w. doesn't do any damage to Pakistan...who was the driving force behind the Bengali Liberation in 71? Or have you been fooled into thinking r.a.w. personnel just sit in their office and drink tea all day and never once think about doing harm to Pakistan. don't fall prey to reverse psychology.
> 
> YouTube - Musharraf exposing RAW activities infront of Indian
> 
> back to topic.



I know that. Not saying Raw is innocent but i really thought that you were serious.
Let's get back to the topic.

If reports are to be believed then Davis doesn't look like a diplomat. He was caught before in spy activities.


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## Hawk Eyes

look how stupid these indians writing this article are.

Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody - The Times of India

pay attention to the first paragraph. i must say i believe the most ignorant people come from our eastern neighbor.


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## MST

Posting it here itself 

*Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody*

Read more: Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody - The Times of India Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody - The Times of India

WASHINGTON: The United States said Thursday it will try hard to ensure there is no anti-American backlash from a shooting incident on a busy Lahore street on Thursday in which a US consular official, who Pakistanis suspect is a spy, shot and killed two locals, who Americans suspect may have been jihadis. 

"We want to make sure that a tragedy like this does not affect the strategic partnership that we're building with Pakistan. And we'll work as hard as we can to explain that to the Pakistani people," was the tempered reaction from State Department spokesman Philip Crowley even as the two 'allies' faced yet another explosive diplomatic situation following the incident. 

The episode has all the ingredients of a scene from a spy thriller, with spooks from each side offering their version of the shooting. Broadly, the official version from both sides is that the consular official, identified in some reports as Raymond Davis, was driving through a busy Lahore marketplace when he was accosted by two motorcycle borne men who tried to rob him, upon which he shot them. One died on the spot and another died in a hospital. 

Davis called the consulate for help and a complement of embassy personnel who rushed there in a SUV ended up running over another person who later died in the hospital. This is where the narrative enters unofficial terrain. It appears the Americans tried to flee the scene holding back an angry mob at gunpoint, but they got stuck in a traffic snarl, and were apprehended by the police. Davis was then taken into custody, going by the grainy video image of a white male flashed on Pakistani television. 

Then the story enters grey area, with various sides giving their own spin through the media. Under pressure to release Davis and stick to the ''shot two robbers in self-defense' version, Pakistanis have been throwing up awkward questions through the media, such as why was Davis driving alone through a marketplace, especially after a suicide bomb blast earlier this week, at a time when anti-American sentiment is high in Pakistan and Americans are asked to avoid exposure? Where was he going, why was he armed, and what is his real assignment in the Consulate ? It also turns out the vehicle he was driving had fake number plates. 

The Pakistani implication is that he is a spy, belonging either to the CIA or the security firm Blackwater aka Xe services. Washington has not helped clarify the matter by being evasive in defining his duties, only saying he is an official attached to the consulate. Some reports said he arrived in Pakistan only ten days ago and he is attached to a security detail, although diplomatic status would have given him immunity. Pakistani police has said he will be charged with the killings if he does not have diplomatic status. 

Amid all this kerfuffle, which comes weeks after the two sides fell out over outing of the CIA station chief in Islamabad by Pakistani elements (suspected to be ISI-linked), a U.S expert has suggested the shoot-out was more likely a spy meeting gone awry, and not a robbery or car-jacking attempt as is being portrayed. 

"It looks like an informant meet gone bad more than a car-jacking attempt," Fred Burton, a former deputy chief of the U.S. Diplomatic Security Service's counter-terrorism division said on a Washington Post blog. "Either the consulate employee's route was compromised by terrorist or criminal surveillance, or it's feasible he was set up in some sort of double-agent operation, if this wasn't a criminal motive." 

Burton also praised Davis' "outstanding situational awareness" to recognize the attack unfolding and shoot the other men. "It shows a high degree of firearms discipline and training," he added. Indeed, considering the attackers were armed, and possibly had the element of surprise to their advantage, the American official , or operative, appears to have displayed both presence of mind and skill. U.S spymasters had ordered a review of procedures in engaging with potential contacts in the aftermath of the Afghan border incident in which seven CIA personnel were killed by a rogue Jordanian agent they believed was a trusted informant. 

But the Pakistani media, particularly those close to the establishment, portrayed the two dead men as "thorough gentlemen" who had little to do with the spycraft. One newspaper, under the headline "American Rambo goes berserk in the city" had an entirely different version of the incident, claiming that the U.S official had first run over a youth and only after he was chased and stopped by a mob did he shoot the two men. 

In any event, the incident adds to the growing tension between the two sides. Americans worry that the weak civilian government and public opinion is being manipulated by hard-line elements in the military and the ISI to provoke anger against the United States. There was grim foreboding in Washington on Thursday about the possible backlash against the U.S, with old-timers recalling the burning down of the American Embassy in Islamabad in 1979.


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## Ahmad

i havent checked the internet since yesterday. any development or clarification in this case?


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## Hawk Eyes

MST said:


> Posting it here itself
> 
> *Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody*



Here is what the author Chidanand Rajghatta looks like.







Mr. Chidanand Rajghatta

this guy must have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

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## MST

Here is what the BBC says:

*US official Raymond David on Lahore murder charges*

A US consular employee has been charged with murder after two motorcyclists were shot dead on a busy street in the Pakistani city of Lahore, police say. Raymond David reportedly said he fired his gun in self-defence because the men were pursuing him in his car.

Another person was run over and killed by a vehicle carrying Mr David's colleagues as they came to his aid, police and witnesses said. Mr David is expected in court later in the Punjab province capital. Lahore's police chief, Aslam Tareen, told the BBC Mr David was employed on "security duties" in the consulate.

*'Rambo goes berserk'*
He did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms, according to the Pakistani authorities. Mr Tareen said a Glock pistol had been recovered from Mr David and that pistols had also been found on the two men shot dead.

Mr David said in a statement that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint, according to police. Police officer Umar Saeed told the Associated Press new agency the American said to officers that he had withdrawn money from a cash machine shortly before the incident. 

*Some Pakistani police have said the two men were probably robbers.
*
The US embassy in Islamabad has confirmed the man involved was a consular official but has not specified his role. The funerals of the three people killed in the incident are expected to take place later on Friday.

More than 100 protesters blocked the road in the aftermath of Thursday's incident, setting tyres ablaze. Demonstrators later gathered outside the police station where the foreigner's car - a white Honda Civic with a Lahore registration plate - was impounded.
Details of the shooting are still unclear, but a salesman, Mohammad Ramzan, told Dawn newspaper that he had seen a foreigner rushing from a car holding a gun. "Within seconds he trained his gun at two motorcyclists standing at the Qurtaba Chowk traffic signal and opened fire," Mr Ramzan said.

Police said that the foreigner had used a radio to call colleagues for help immediately after the shooting - and that a second consular car turned up to rescue him.

It is believed the third person killed was run over by the vehicle as it sped to his aid.
The foreigner had tried to flee the scene, but two traffic wardens chased and detained him nearby before handing him over to police, chief traffic officer Ahmad Mobeen told Dawn.

A headline in The Nation, a right-wing newspaper that often publishes anti-American commentary, said, "'American Rambo' goes berserk in Lahore".

The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Pakistan says that the incident could worsen anti-American sentiment in Pakistan. "We want to make sure that a tragedy like this does not affect the strategic partnership that we're building with Pakistan," state department spokesman Philip Crowley told journalists in Washington. "And we'll work as hard as we can to explain that to the Pakistani people."

Many Pakistanis resent the US because of regular air strikes carried out by American drone aircraft against militant targets in north-west Pakistan, and because of America's role in neighbouring Afghanistan.


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## MST

Hawk Eyes said:


> Here is what the author Chidanand Rajghatta looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Chidanand Rajghatta
> 
> this guy must have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.



Common man Times of India is a tabloid. What more do you expect from them. Read the BBC one.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*US official in Pakistan shooting may face charges*


LAHORE, Pakistan (AP) &#8212; A U.S. consular employee in Pakistan alleged to have shot dead two gunmen who may have been intent on robbing him has been formally placed under arrest and could face murder charges, authorities said Friday, in a case that may inflame anti-American anger in the country.

A third Pakistani was killed in the incident Thursday in the bustling city of Lahore, allegedly after being hit by a U.S. vehicle rushing to aid the American.

Police officer Umar Saeed said Friday the American had told officers he had withdrawn money from an ATM shortly before the incident, raising the possibility the two men were following him. Others Pakistani officers have said the men were likely robbers and both were carrying pistols.

The issue of American diplomats or their security detail carrying weapons inside Pakistan was a hot-button subject last year among certain politicians and sections of the media purportedly worried about the country's sovereignty. Many Pakistanis regard the United States with suspicion or outright enmity because of its occupation of neighboring Afghanistan and regular missile attacks against militant targets in Pakistan's northwest.

*"'American Rambo' goes berserk in Lahore,'" read the headline in The Nation, a right-wing newspaper that often publishes anti-U.S. conspiracy theories.*

Western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of militant attack. Lahore has seen frequent terrorist bombings and shootings over the last two years, though the city's small expatriate population has not been directly targeted.

*Punjab province Law Minister Rana Sanaullah said the American was formally placed under arrest after a complaint from a brother of one of the victims. The case is being investigated as a potential murder, and the American may face that charge, Sanaullah said.*

*Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen said the American may also face a charge involving illegally carrying a weapon, a Beretta pistol.*

*"Diplomatic staff usually enjoy a certain type of immunity, but I am not sure about murder," Tareen said. "We will consult the Foreign Office and legal advisers in this regard."*

In a two-sentence statement Friday, the U.S. embassy confirmed that a consulate staffer "was involved in an incident yesterday that regrettably resulted in the loss of life." The U.S. was working with Pakistanis to "determine the facts and work toward a resolution," it said.

Robbers on motorbikes pulling up alongside cars and holding them up is a common crime in Pakistani cities.

*A newspaper editorial in The Express Tribune said it was reasonable for Western diplomats to travel armed, but noted that in America shooting in self-defense can result in a conviction, especially if it can be proved that the accused used excessive force.*

Americans and other foreigners have also been frequently targeted by Islamist militants in Pakistan.

In the northwestern city of Peshawar in 2008, gunmen shot and killed a U.S. aid worker as he drove to work. Suspected militants also opened fire on the vehicle of the top American diplomat in the city the same year, but she survived the attack.

The Associated Press: US official in Pakistan shooting may face charges


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## pakdefender

Just look at the mischief in the AP report that its 'common' crime in Pakistan that motor bikes will pull up along side for robbery attempts.

There are so many check posts in Lahore these days that that idea that you can rob someone on gunpoint and drive away on a motorbike and that too in a crowded place like mozzang is way too far fetched.

This SOB killed these poor people in cold blood and he must be punished for his crimes

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## pakdefender

Firing a full magazine of rounds into two victims is no self defence , this is murder , his intent was not to disable but to KILL! 

Basically after he emptied the magazine he tried to flee the scene , if it was self defence he should have gone to the police and identifed himself as one seeking protection from attempted robbery but this rat tried to flee and was chased down and caught by the traffic wardens.


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## s90

pakdefender said:


> *Just look at the mischief in the AP report that its 'common' crime in Pakistan that motor bikes will pull up along side for robbery attempts.
> 
> There are so many check posts in Lahore these days that that idea that you can rob someone on gunpoint and drive away on a motorbike and that too in a crowded place like mozzang is way too far fetched.*
> 
> This SOB killed these poor people in cold blood and he must be punished for his crimes



Stop making false propositions. I don't know what kind of image you have about Pakistan but AP report is correct - these things also happen infront of Police with no action taken by them.

Pakistanis are always in denial mode.


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## DV RULES

Ok, we assume that they were robbers but why they had 4 WIRELESS SETS? Is there any explanation?


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## pakdefender

s90 said:


> Stop making false propositions. I don't know what kind of image you have about Pakistan but AP report is correct - these things also happen infront of Police with no action taken by them.



It might be a common thing in Karachi but its not so widespread in Lahore and these days , given the number of check posts that are there , it very unlikely that motor cyclists ( who are checked the most ) would carry weapons and attempt a robbery.


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## pakdefender

DV RULES said:


> Ok, we assume that they were robbers but why they had 4 WIRELESS SETS? Is there any explanation?



If they were that sophistcated that they had weapons and wireless sets they would not be on motor cycles , trust me 

these are all lies and misinformation being speread since the killer is a white american.


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## s90

pakdefender said:


> It might be a common thing in Karachi but its not so widespread in Lahore and these days , given the number of check posts that are there , it very unlikely that motor cyclists ( who are checked the most ) would carry weapons and attempt a robbery.



No i live here and these things happen and im witness to them - Law and order is very bad in Pakistan.



DV RULES said:


> Ok, we assume that they were robbers but why they had 4 WIRELESS SETS? Is there any explanation?



That's what police is for, to investigate and charge those responsible.


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## pakdefender

The Facts are very clear

- This guys does not have diplomatic imunity and he was not authorized to carry a weapon 
- He killed two people with mutiple bullets and tried to flee the scene
- His colleague ran over and killed a bystander
- The police chased him and caught him
- He has been formally charged with murder.


Now we Pakistanis would like to see justice being done. 
The prosecution should seek the death penalty for him.


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## Spring Onion

The US foreign office quoted by Media saying the name of the diplomat being mentioned in the media is wrong . Now one wonders who is using fake name ?

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## Ahmad

I think diplomacy will go under way and he will be tried in the US and spent his time in jail there if he is convicted.


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## Leviza

Ahmad said:


> I think diplomacy will go under way and he will be tried in the US and spent his time in jail there if he is convicted.



thats not possible like that innocent lady of Pakistan in US jail.... i forgot her name here..............

*hang this david on same street ASAP otherwise next time people will do justice on streets.....even in the name of self defense he cannot use more force and there is no proof that these 2 guys attacked him so self defense cannot be proved....*


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## Spring Onion

Ahmad said:


> I think diplomacy will go under way and he will be tried in the US and spent his time in jail there if he is convicted.



Nothing will happen. he sill be Scott free


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## pakdefender

*Court grants 6-day remand of American*

LAHORE: US Consulate employee was produced in court Friday on double murder charges, Geo News reported, a day after he shot dead two men on a motorcycle in what he said was self-defence.

The US citizen was appeared before the Senior Judge Zafar Iqbal who handed over the accused to the police on six-day remand.

The man, Raymond Davis was described by the State Department in Washington as an American civilian working for the US Consulate in Lahore.

A third Pakistani was crushed to death by a consulate car that went to the scene to aid the man following the shooting in a busy street in the eastern city.

Provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah said officials had asked the US Consulate to release the second vehicle and its driver to police.

The US embassy in Islamabad has confirmed the man involved was a consular worker but said it was still trying to work out with the police what had happened.

Punjab minister Sanaullah said no American pressure would be allowed to influence the criminal case. 


Court grants 6-day remand of American

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## Spring Onion

There are new updates that the bullets he fired from his weapon for killing Pakistanis, were banned by Hague Convention . So under the law its against the rules to use these bullets

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## logic

This evil Murderer should face justice.

This punk should be hanged.

The US member of the forums are in denial mode that there home boys has went on a rampage and killed and maimed various civilians.

This punk was not shot upon a single time.

The traffic warden has given statement that this guy pulled his gun at him and all people who tried to convince him to end his rampage.

No one laid a finger on him. He shot the guys from behind. The postmortem report confirms this.

Hang the punk that has devastated so many lives.

This evil punk also hit a rickshaw injuring 4 little children too.

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## Fasih Khan

*The Joker ''Law Minister'' of Punjab had this to say about the Murderer.*

Lahore shooting: 'Davis will not be given VIP protocol'

Lahore shooting: &#8216;Davis will not be given VIP protocol&#8217; &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Fasih Khan

> Lets trade Davis with Aafia, our Government has a good chance



A Thought On ET. Howz that ?


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## John Doe

Hawk Eyes said:


> Here is what the author Chidanand Rajghatta looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Chidanand Rajghatta
> 
> this guy must have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.



What does how he looked got to do with the quality of the article? I don't know how YOU look, but I question your IQ now.........

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## Fasih Khan

But what about his punishment to Kill atleast one Innocent out of three Pakistanis. Two are yet to be proven guilty.


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## Ahmad

Jana said:


> Nothing will happen. he sill be Scott free



if he is found guilty, i doubt if the american gov will sacrifice its relations with pakistan over this individual.


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## fida jan

Ahmad said:


> I think diplomacy will go under way and he will be tried in the US and spent his time in jail there if he is convicted.



he will be tried in pak court and will be hanged if found guilty


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## Ahmad

fida jan said:


> he will be tried in pak court and will be hanged if found guilty



That remains to be seen, but as i said earlier, the US gives more value to its relationship with another country over an individual especially if he is found guilty of a crime.


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## Durrak

Ahmad said:


> if he is found guilty, i doubt if the american gov will sacrifice its relations with pakistan over this individual.



Do you believe that Pakistan government will sacrifice its relation with america??


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## Ahmad

Ak-47A said:


> Do you believe that Pakistan government will sacrifice its relation with america??



No they wont, but that david or davis(whatever he is) is only an individual, as i said before, if he is found guilty, then nobody will give a damn about him.

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## humanfirst

pakdefender said:


> The Facts are very clear
> 
> - This guys does not have diplomatic imunity and he was not authorized to carry a weapon
> - He killed two people with mutiple bullets and tried to flee the scene
> - His colleague ran over and killed a bystander
> - The police chased him and caught him
> - He has been formally charged with murder.
> 
> 
> Now we Pakistanis would like to see justice being done.
> The prosecution should seek the death penalty for him.



*there are witnesses who saw the bike chasing the car.
*There are evidences for the fact that the guys in bike were armed and they shot at the diplomat's car
*punjab police have confirmed that one of the bike riders had history of armed robbery.
Instead of selectively picking up points and trying to create conspiracy theories let the investigation by police finish.If he is found guilty and not punished because of deplomatic immunity,then protest.


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## Bill Longley

Ahmad said:


> No they wont, but that david or davis(whatever he is) is only an individual, as i said before, if he is found guilty, then nobody will give a damn about him.



I think Ahmed is right. Govt is under pressure from Public openion. If davis is proven culprit he will be punished. I think he will get prison which will be in end pardoned and silently he will be removed .

US will never want to increase Anti Americanism in Pakistan, similerly Govt wont want that it be called American puppet. So If proven guilty he will get imprisonment which will be silently pardoned.


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## humanfirst

pakdefender said:


> The Facts are very clear
> 
> - This guys does not have diplomatic imunity and he was not authorized to carry a weapon
> - He killed two people with mutiple bullets and tried to flee the scene
> - His colleague ran over and killed a bystander
> - The police chased him and caught him
> - He has been formally charged with murder.
> 
> 
> Now we Pakistanis would like to see justice being done.
> The prosecution should seek the death penalty for him.



*there are witnesses who saw the bike chasing the car.
*There are evidences for the fact that the guys in bike were armed and they shot at the diplomat's car
*punjab police have confirmed that one of the bike riders had history of armed robbery.
Instead of selectively picking facts and trying to create conspiracy theories let the govt investigation finish.If he is found guilty and not punished because of deplomatic immunity,then protest.


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## Durrak

Ahmad said:


> No they wont, but that david or davis(whatever he is) is only an individual, as i said before, if he is found guilty, then nobody will give a damn about him.



Exactly but media is highlighting this issue very much.Same news on every news channel.Hope that government will take some strong action against him


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## Durrak

*LAHORE: A local court granted six days physical remand of the US national Davis to the police in firing incident in Lahore on Thursday. 

Police have registered two cases of the Lahore incident; in one case under Article 302, Davis has been named as accused, while another case has been registered under Article 322 against unknown culprits. 

Police today dodged the media by producing the accused American in Cantt court instead of Model Town.

The accused will be produced before the court after six days' remand period.*


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## JonAsad

Hawk Eyes said:


> ^^^The shooter Raymond David is Jewish.



I even doubt thats his real name, i am amzaed he is not some Lynch or some thing.


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## fida jan

Hawk Eyes said:


> The shooter Raymond David is Jewish.



now it clears the whole picture!!!!!
thanks for info


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## logic

*Established Facts about the case*

1.An American Citizen has been arrested by the Lahore Police and is facing two counts of murder i.e the constitutional provision 302 maximum sentence is to be hanged till death.
The person has been remanded by the police and a judicial investigation will be carried out for no less than 6 days after that he will be presented in court of law.

2. A FIR has been filed by the Lahore Police about a Land Cruiser that crushed a innocent person on bike while the land cruiser was jumping traffic lights at the incident.


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## JonAsad

* Court grants 6-day remand of American*


LAHORE: US Consulate employee was produced in court Friday on double murder charges, Geo News reported, a day after he shot dead two men on a motorcycle in what he said was self-defence.

The US citizen was appeared before the Senior Judge Zafar Iqbal who handed over the accused to the police on six-day remand.

The man, Raymond Davis was described by the State Department in Washington as an American civilian working for the US Consulate in Lahore.

A third Pakistani was crushed to death by a consulate car that went to the scene to aid the man following the shooting in a busy street in the eastern city.

Provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah said officials had asked the US Consulate to release the second vehicle and its driver to police.

The US embassy in Islamabad has confirmed the man involved was a consular worker but said it was still trying to work out with the police what had happened.

Punjab minister Sanaullah said no American pressure would be allowed to influence the criminal case.
http://geo.tv/1-28-2011/77721.htm


*Dr Afia was accused of firing at an american, This guy has killed 2 Pakistanis. Lets see what happens.*


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## logic

This punk is now saying in the media that he will ask for*Mercy from families of the innocent people killed by this drunk sob*

*HE SHOULD BE TRIED IN THE COURT AND PROSECUTION IS PUSHING FOR DEATH SENTENCE*

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## pakistanamerican

humanfirst said:


> *there are witnesses who saw the bike chasing the car.
> *There are evidences for the fact that the guys in bike were armed and they shot at the diplomat's car
> *punjab police have confirmed that one of the bike riders had history of armed robbery.
> Instead of selectively picking facts and trying to create conspiracy theories let the govt investigation finish.If he is found guilty and not punished because of deplomatic immunity,then protest.



That does not seem to matter, as long as there is a chance to get back at America.


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## American Eagle

You are making up your facts as you go here.

One little example...go back to postings # 62; 76;241; and 242, if you are able to be so open minded of actual "facts."

Summarized, per Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tarin two (terrorists) pistols recovered on the scene. Marakov 32 pistols, as commonly used and captured from fights with al Qaida and the terrorist Taliban. Windshield of American's vehicle shot up from and by the two terrorists, shots visibly fired into, again into, the American's vehicle.

Finally, where is your RAGE over the innocent Pakistani Muslims murdered by terrorist Pakistani radical Islamist suicide bomber the day before RIGHT THERE IN LAHORE? More were killed and many were wounded. Same day, same ilk of terrorists killing larger number of fellow Muslins and wounding even more fellow Muslims in Karachi?

Your so called rage is phoney, you are trying to blame an attack on an American for all the problems in Pakistan today, where there are many problems, some caused by radical religious terrorists, some caused by the worldwide financial depression which has economic "reasons why" which causes of economic collapses, even in the West, are not being fully and directly addressed and fixed yet.

Too many people in the West and also in Pakistan still want something for nothing to be overnight millionaires. That ain't gonna happen there or here. And undocumented wild statements by you are not helping support law and order inside Pakistan when you do not face up to day before terrorist suicide bombings as the greatest threat to civil society in Pakistan, from and by your fellow, although radical, Muslim terrorist Paksitanis.

Armed terrorists attacked and shot up the windshield of an American's vehicle and he defended himself. You overlook I have lived and worked inside Pakistan and know how freely guns and related weapons exist among very many people there. Armed civilians in Pakistan make the occasional US pick up truck with a rifle in a rear window rack puny by comparison.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> You are making up your facts as you go here.
> 
> One little example...go back to postings # 62; 76;241; and 242, if you are able to be so open minded of actual "facts."
> 
> *Summarized, per Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tarin *two (terrorists) pistols recovered on the scene. Marakov 32 pistols, as commonly used and captured from rights with al Qaida and the terrorist Taliban. Windshield of American's vehicle shot up from and by the two terrorists, shots visibly fired into, again into, the American's vehicle.
> 
> Finally, where is your RAGE over the innocent Pakistani Muslims murdered by terrorist suicide bomber the day before RIGHT THERE IN LAHORE? More were killed and many were wounded. Same day, same ilk of terrorists killing larger number of fellow Muslins and wounding even more fellow Muslims in Karachi?
> 
> Your so called rage is phoney, you are trying to blame an attack on an American for all the problems in Pakistan today, where there are many problems, some caused by radical religious terrorists, some caused by the worldwide economic depression which has economic reasons why which even in the West are not fully and directly being addressed and fixed yet.
> 
> Armed terrorists attacked and shot up the windshield of an American's vehicle and he defended himself. You overlook I have lived and worked inside Pakistan and know how freely guns and related weapons exist among very many people there. Armed civilians in Pakistan make the occasional US pick up truck with a rifle in a rear window rack puny by comparison.



Your hate blinds you.
Its not about US and Pakistan it is about this *SOB KILLING 3 INNOCENT PEOPLE USING DEADLY FORCE*

IF he would have killed your mother father or brother even then you will say the same?

THIS *SOB has appeared on Pakistani media saying he was sorry for killing 3 innocent people and ask there families for pardon*


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## JonAsad

The weapons are planted. As i have said before i am amazed they didn't find one of he victims wearing a suicide vest.


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## metro

prima facie, the accused seems to be guilty of murder. 
i believe he was drunk.


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## notsuperstitious

Hawk Eyes said:


> Here is what the author Chidanand Rajghatta looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Chidanand Rajghatta
> 
> this guy must have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.



You make some very pertinent intellectual points revealing your thinking prowess. You also mentioned how 1971 happened in one of your posts here. I can make a logical connection between your thinking and 1971, can you?

@ topic, i hope a transparent investigation happens, for the sake of justice and not for pleasing the lynch mobs. The lynch mobs can never be pleased.

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## Durrak

Glorious Resolve said:


> The weapons are planted. As i have said before i am amazed they didn't find one of he victims wearing a suicide vest.



Wait until facts come out

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## VelocuR

Fred Burton (a former deputy chief of the U.S. Diplomatic Security Service's counter-terrorism division) *also praised Davis' "outstanding situational awareness" to recognize the attack unfolding and shoot the other men. "It shows a high degree of firearms discipline and training,"* he added.


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## Hulk

It is quit possible the 3 men killed are not innocent. I read the article below.
Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody - The Times of India 

I don't think anyone will just started shooting without a reason.


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## American Eagle

1. Where is your rage of Muslim suicide bomber terrorists the day before, right there in Lahore, killing several and maiming many more by an act of religious violance of a Muslim against fellow Muslims?

2. Your story telling has gotten worse. You mention a non-existant TV interview, which no court system in the world would allow, with someone asking pardon for all three deaths.

*



Did you not notice yet the third death was not done by the American victum of terrorists (two) attacks on him, with his windshield shot away, guns found by Chief of Lahore Police, used by and belonging to the terrorists?

Click to expand...

*Your phoney anger is immature and your credibility is totally lost here.

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## RescueRanger

indianrabbit said:


> It is quit possible the 3 men killed are not innocent. I read the article below.
> Spy Game: US, Pak tangle gets messy, bloody - The Times of India
> 
> I don't think anyone will just started shooting without a reason.



Watch what you say, the third guy was a innocent person heading home from the bakery, he was no where near the initial incident. Please don't defame the dead when you don't know the whole picture.

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## American Eagle

THE LONDON GUARDIAN is not one of my favorite international newspapers. But it will suffice to clarify for the unaware here that there were two separate events:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/27/us-embassy-official-kills-pakistan


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

3 killed , what about many men and women who were injured................


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> 1. Where is your rage of Muslim suicide bomber terrorists the day before, right there in Lahore, killing several and maiming many more by an act of religious violance of a Muslim against fellow Muslims?




Not related to topic stop ranting.



> 2. Your story telling has gotten worse. You mention a non-existant TV interview, which no court system in the world would allow, with someone asking pardon for all three deaths.
> 
> 
> Your phoney anger is immature and your credibility is totally lost here.


What BS

Express news has shown this punk making these remarks.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

American Eagle said:


> And I believe the two terrorist shooters were mad from having eaten too much pork!
> 
> Come on, what absurdities when many more innocent Pakistani Muslims were murdered in the same city of Lahore the day before by an Muslim terrorist suicide bomber, with many more maimed and wounded, men, women and children?



actually it,s big game who is sponsoring it is yet a hidden truth.
what about many innocents killed by drones and what about many innocent iraques and afghans killed by brutal american forces. Taliban are terrorists and brutal so are americans............


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> And I believe the two terrorist shooters



MODS please take note, it has not been proven if these men were terrorists or anything else, till then i please ask you to intervene and amend this post and any such post towing this line.

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## American Eagle

Since when does a legal matter get tried in a yellow journalist newspaper based on already shown wrong information? You are more than gullible, just reaching to falsify your opinions as if these were facts, which they are not.

Two separated events, two shootists shot into American's windshield; by all alleged reports he got out and fired back at them.

Separately a second vehicle hit a cyclist who subsequently passed away in the hospital. No one knows what the cyclist was up to...for all we factually know...he may have also had a gun and pulled it on the second vehicle.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

logic said:


> Not related to topic stop ranting.
> 
> 
> What BS
> 
> Express news has shown this punk making these remarks.



actually americans are innocent what ever they do , who ever they kill ......... bla bla
let them be prosecuted and trialed in court. if they are innocent court wouldn,t eat them............

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## Durrak

American Eagle said:


> And I believe the two terrorist shooters were mad from having eaten too much pork!
> 
> Come on, what absurdities when many more innocent Pakistani Muslims were murdered in the same city of Lahore the day before by an Muslim terrorist suicide bomber, with many more maimed and wounded, men, women and children?



That is another case don't merge them with each other
The guilty should be punished whoever he is that is we want


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

American Eagle said:


> Since when does a legal matter get tried in a yellow journalist newspaper based on already shown wrong information? You are more than gullible, just reaching to falsify your opinions as if these were facts, which they are not.
> 
> Two separated events, two shootists shot into American's windshield; by all alleged reports he got out and fired back at them.
> 
> Separately a second vehicle hit a cyclist who subsequently passed away in the hospital. No one knows what the cyclist was up to...for all we factually know...he may have also had a gun and pulled it on the second vehicle.



come on they didn,t shot even a single bullet , all were shot by american ..........
if you think bullet wholes in car,s front screen were by their bullets then you need to correct your information.
they may be robbers but truth has to reveled yet..........


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Since when does a legal matter get tried in a yellow journalist newspaper based on already shown wrong information? You are more than gullible, just reaching to falsify your opinions as if these were facts, which they are not.



Usual hate filled rant.



> Two separated events, two shootists shot into American's windshield; by all alleged reports he got out and fired back at them.



The bullets were shot from inside the vehicle by the punk who has been arrested. As confirmed by police.

No shots were fired at this person.



> Separately a second vehicle hit a cyclist who subsequently passed away in the hospital. No one knows what the cyclist was up to...for all we factually know...he may have also had a gun and pulled it on the second vehicle.



The vehicle in Question is a White Land Cruiser a FIR has been launched into this matter and punjab police has requested the US embassy to release details about the vehicle.


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## American Eagle

RescueRanger said:


> Watch what you say, the third guy was a innocent person heading home from the bakery, he was no where near the initial incident. Please don't defame the dead when you don't know the whole picture.



No one defames the dead. All deaths should be and are tragic but in war are unhappily inevitable. 

What I still want to know from know it all posters who are making up stuff as they go here... who were the men, women, and children murdered the day before in Lahore by a terrorist suicide bomber? Please be specific by showing respect for their violently taken Pakistan Muslim lives by at least naming and identifying who they were. Thank you.


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## American Eagle

*



Usual hate filled rant.


The bullets were shot from inside the vehicle by the punk who has been arrested. As confirmed by police.

No shots were fired at this person.

Click to expand...

*
1. No police dept. in the world will release evidence pending a trail or charges that can lead to a trial, so alleging "as confirmed by police" is flatly untrue.

2. The few facts which the Lahore Police Chief has released are summarized in postings # 62; 76; 241; and 242.

3. The reason the rear window of the American's car is "out" is the bullets fired into the windshield exited the car via the rear window, knocking it out folks.

The shootists in fact did shoot into the windshield of the American driver, as the photo, repeated in two postings, 241 and 242, clearly show. How folks continue to defy facts brings discredit on you and harms the image of innocents in all of Pakistan whose credibility is harmed by a few folks telling falsehoods to stir up trouble on this site.


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## Aslan

American Eagle said:


> No one defames the dead. All deaths should be and are tragic but in war are unhappily inevitable.
> 
> What I still want to know from know it all posters who are making up stuff as they go here... who were the men, women, and children murdered the day before in Lahore by a terrorist suicide bomber? Please be specific by showing respect for their violently taken Pakistan Muslim lives by at least naming and identifying who they were. Thank you.



Yes all the posters are making up stuff but you Einstein know it all. \

You also remind me of the pic and his words below. Carry on the good work. 







No matter what we say who cares eh we are just a bunch of Pakistanis whose life dont matter any ways. Listen to the American y'all.

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## pakdefender

American Eagle said:


> 1. No police dept. in the world will release evidence pending a trail or charges that can lead to a trial, so alleging "as confirmed by police" is flatly untrue.
> 
> 2. The few facts which the Lahore Police Chief has released are summarized in postings # 62; 76; 241; and 242.
> 
> 3. *The reason the rear window of the American's car is "out" is the bullets fired into the windshield exited the car via the rear window, knocking it out folks.*
> 
> The shootists in fact did shoot into the windshield of the American driver, as the photo, repeated in two postings, 241 and 242, clearly show. How folks continue to defy facts brings discredit on you and harms the image of innocents in all of Pakistan whose credibility is harmed by a few folks telling falsehoods to stir up trouble on this site.



lay of the crack and stop living inside a hollywood movie. The probability of a bullet entering from the front windscreen and exiting from the rear without hitting anything inside the vehicle is almost nill.


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## Aslan

pakdefender said:


> lay of the crak and stop living inside a hollywood movies. The probability of a bullet entering from the front winscreen and exiting from the rear without hitting anything inside the vehicle is almost nill.



The problem is simple.

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## mehru

American Eagle said:


> No one defames the dead. All deaths should be and are tragic but in war are unhappily inevitable.
> 
> What I still want to know from know it all posters who are making up stuff as they go here... who were the men, women, and children murdered the day before in Lahore by a terrorist suicide bomber? Please be specific by showing respect for their violently taken Pakistan Muslim lives by at least naming and identifying who they were. Thank you.



Thanks for paying tributes to the innocent victims of last terrorist blast. Most victims were policemen and were buried with state honour. They were killed during their guard duty of processions. People have paid respect to them in the respective threads. Kindly don't bring that issue here. Kindly don't rub salt into our wounds by mentiontioning terrorist blasts again and again. Stick on the topic.

As far as Davis is concerned, his fate will be decide by the court. I hope that you and other members here will respect the court decision. Thank you.

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## Durrak

mehru said:


> As far as Davis is concerned, his fate will be decide by the court. I hope that you and other members here will respect the court decision. Thank you.




Agree with you sis


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## architect_cobb

The only thing I can say after going through this thread is that its not about the people who lost their lives in the tragic incident. Its simply about the US hatred thats so prevailent in Pakistan and growing. So everybody hold your horses, an incident happened their would be a police enquiry, their could have been an assault and the american could have acted in self defence we would find out in time.

Knee jerk reactions are nothing more than emotional palpitations that lead you nowhere. He was after all not roaming around with an AK 47 shooting randomly, why those two motorbike riders we would find out in time.

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## Spring Onion

too many facepalms by Americans here and their supporters. bomb blasts, terrorism have nothing to do with this terrorists acts of Americans in Lahore.

why Americans here are trying to hide behind emotional tactics

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## Spring Onion

architect_cobb said:


> The only thing I can say after going through this thread is that its not about the people who lost their lives in the tragic incident. Its simply about the US hatred thats so prevailent in Pakistan and growing. So everybody hold your horses, an incident happened their would be a police enquiry, their could have been an assault and the american could have acted in self defence we would find out in time.
> 
> Knee jerk reactions are nothing more than emotional palpitations that lead you nowhere.* He was after all not roaming around with an AK 47 shooting randomly, why those two motorbike riders we would find out in time*.


 he was carrying against the law. No foreigner can carry arms.

Secondly the bullets from his weapon killed three Pakistanis are a banned ITEM by International rules. He also failed to produce the license of the weapon neither any document


Thirdly the two bikers which he killed were carrying licensed weapon as per Punjab Law minister speaking on TV. SO now tell me who the heck will use licensed arms for robbery or any other crime?


Fourthly what if the angry mob had killed this idiot American in rage???? Would some American and pro US nuts not coming up giving it a religious colour ???

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## architect_cobb

Jana said:


> he was carrying against the law. No foreigner can carry arms.


it was probably cause of that firearm that he is still alive today else it might have been a different story much more embarrassing for everybody. 


> Secondly the bullets from his weapon killed three Pakistanis are a banned ITEM by International rules. He also failed to produce the license of the weapon neither any document


correct yourself, his bullet killed only one. I have heard conflicitng news on different channels as to if the second one was injured, killed or escaped. 

Those who were over run were not by this guy but by another car. 


> Thirdly the two bikers which he killed were carrying licensed weapon as per Punjab Law minister speaking on TV. SO now tell me who the heck will use licensed arms for robbery or any other crime?



when was the last time you were in Pak. and what stops you from using a licensed weapon for robbery?

However having said that its not me saying they were robbers, its the Punjab Police and the media, including Dawn and ARY. Here is a neutral description

US diplomat charged with Pakistan double murder: BBC

and I am saying is that till the time the facts come out one cannot jump to conclusions. And in case if he was attacked and used it in self defence then it might be a totally different story.



> Fourthly what if the angry mob had killed this idiot American in rage???? Would some American and pro US nuts not coming up giving it a religious colour ???



Whats happening in Pakistan in the name of religion is a whole different story and should be discussed in a separate thread. But what can be said for sure is that if he didn't act and was shot dead by those bikers it would have been bad as well. Again this guy was not on a shooting rampage. And didn't shoot at random but two specific guys. Was he targetting them for some reason? Were they targetting him? Whats the real story we don't know so till then hold your horses.

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## khurasaan1

rockstar said:


> Yes, maximum he will be called back..



a black water spy...


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## Durrak

WASHINGTON: The United States said Thursday it will try hard to ensure there is no anti-American backlash from a shooting incident in which a US consular worker was charged with the murder of two Pakistani men.	

"We want to make sure that a tragedy like this does not affect the strategic partnership that we're building with Pakistan," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley told reporters. 

"And we'll work as hard as we can to explain that to the Pakistani people," Crowley said.

In Lahore, a US consular worker was charged with the murder of two Pakistani men following American&#8217;s shooting in a busy street, a provincial minister said.	

The American man told police he shot the two motorcycle riders in self-defense after they pulled a pistol on him in an attempted robbery, police officials told media.	

Crowley gave few details of the event, but confirmed that an American civilian working for the US consulate in Lahore was "involved in an incident," while declining to identify the individual.	

"There's a Pakistan investigation. We will cooperate fully," he said.


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## zs4

architect_cobb said:


> it was probably cause of that firearm that he is still alive today else it might have been a different story much more embarrassing for everybody.



Robbers in crowded markets use weapons for intimidation. They don't necessarily want to fire them which will cause unnecessary attention to their activities. So had he not had a gun and not fired it, the worst is he would have lost his possessions. Why did he fear for his life? Was it a knee jerk reaction that prompted him to draw his weapon? Or did he not want to part with his possessions? Sorry if I'm repeating anything already discussed in this long thread.


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## VelocuR

Raymond Davis, terrorist illegally in Pakistan

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=10215

Proper investigation must be done and a true justice should prevail !

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## SQ8

*


architect_cobb said:



it was probably cause of that firearm that he is still alive today else it might have been a different story much more embarrassing for everybody. 

correct yourself, his bullet killed only one. I have heard conflicitng news on different channels as to if the second one was injured, killed or escaped. 

Those who were over run were not by this guy but by another car. 


when was the last time you were in Pak. and what stops you from using a licensed weapon for robbery?

Click to expand...

*


architect_cobb said:


> However having said that its not me saying they were robbers, its the Punjab Police and the media, including Dawn and ARY. Here is a neutral description
> 
> US diplomat charged with Pakistan double murder: BBC
> 
> and I am saying is that till the time the facts come out one cannot jump to conclusions. And in case if he was attacked and used it in self defence then it might be a totally different story.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats happening in Pakistan in the name of religion is a whole different story and should be discussed in a separate thread. But what can be said for sure is that if he didn't act and was shot dead by those bikers it would have been bad as well. Again this guy was not on a shooting rampage. And didn't shoot at random but two specific guys. Was he targetting them for some reason? Were they targetting him? Whats the real story we don't know so till then hold your horses.



The fact that it can be traced back to you, if I want to kill some to steal their mobile, Id rather not have anything traced back to me.
While in Karachi I an unlicensed cheap weapons with me.. so if I get robbed on the road, I let the guy go and then do my best to hit him and kill him.. If I am successful, I can avoid any unnecessary investigation.


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## metro

RaptorRX707 said:


> Raymond Davis, terrorist illegally in Pakistan
> 
> Court grants 6-day remand of American
> 
> Proper investigation must be done and a true justice should prevail !



the person looks a real drunkard from his face, im 100% sure he was drunk when he rode over that poor guy on the road. 
i guess he got carried away in his arrogance of being an American while he was drunk.


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## American Eagle

pakdefender said:


> lay of the crack and stop living inside a hollywood movie. The probability of a bullet entering from the front windscreen and exiting from the rear without hitting anything inside the vehicle is almost nill.



Where is the logic of this science ficiton statement?

Of course vehicles take bullets in the front windshield which then exist the rear window of the same vehicle.

A guy is shot at, windshield is hit three times, bullets pass through and knock out the rear window. Who wouldn't then shoot back?

The simple photos in worldwide press speak for themselves, the two shootists did a drive by shooting for motor cycle and then were shot by the target of their shootings...who stopped and got out of his vehicle before he fired BACK at them.



> *So many bogus stories, wild allegations, but the photos are facts. Car was shot into, bullets exited through rear window, blowing it out.*



Sad commentary on folks trying to stir up more trouble which intended or not helps the terrorists who use such false propaganda against NATO/US who are allies in this war on terrorism of Pakistan.


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## flameboard

The Canadian Press: American accused of shooting 2 armed men in Pakistan could face murder charge Too long to post on here but he will most likely face murder charges at the moment he's facing six days in jail.


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## pak-marine

zs4 said:


> Robbers in crowded markets use weapons for intimidation. They don't necessarily want to fire them which will cause unnecessary attention to their activities. So had he not had a gun and not fired it, the worst is he would have lost his possessions. Why did he fear for his life? Was it a knee jerk reaction that prompted him to draw his weapon? Or did he not want to part with his possessions? Sorry if I'm repeating anything already discussed in this long thread.



if those were killed were robbers than to fire back and kill those was infact a favour for us

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## SEAL

RaptorRX707 said:


> Raymond Davis, terrorist illegally in Pakistan



I think his a$$ is perfect for chitrool.
Raymond Davis admit your crime and tell the authorities about your mission and CIA terrorist activities in Pakistan.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

hey Eagle

be nice to your kids, old man, they'll be the ones paying for your retirement home


look at the bulletholes in the windshield a little closer


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## VCheng

Ak-47A said:


> *"There's a Pakistan investigation. We will cooperate fully," he said.*



That is the most important thing.

Regardless of the rhetoric flying around from both sides, I will *WAIT *for the investigation to be *completed *before saying anything.

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## Shameel

Here's what I know from a police source:

The two people Raymond Davis shot dead were returning from a court hearing where one of them was a witness in a murder case. One of the murder victims brother had been murdered a month ago and he was carrying a licensed pistol for his own protection, fearing for his own life. Raymond Davis, the US Consulate Technical Advisor, off-duty, comes out of a bank after withdrawing some money from an ATM machine. In a case of pure bad luck, the two guys on the motorcycle pass by his car as he drives away from the bank. At a traffic stop, Raymond sees the sidearm of one of the guys and pulls out his gun as a precuation thinking they either want to rob him or could be terrorists. In Lahore, people have a tendency to stare at foreigners because they are a novelty, especially in public. The guy on the motorcycle, who himself is paranoid about his own life, sees Raymond pull out his gun and grabs his own weapon for protection. He doesn't pull it out or fire at Raymond, just grabs it. At that moment Raymond, mistakenly thinking he's about to be fired upon and trained to pre-empt, fires shots through the windshield of his car at both the motorcycle guys killing both. They were shot from behind. He then takes pictures of the two dead people (to prove later that one of the dead guys was armed) and starts to leave the scene of the crime. At this moment eye-witnesses start to chase him. Raymond had already called for back up soon after the shots are fired. A back-up vehicle arrives in minutes and sees the traffic jam and takes the incoming lane on the wrong side to get to Raymond. In the process it hits two pedestrians, one of whom is killed. It then abandons the rescue plan and speeds away (i.e. hit and run). In the meantime a traffic warden and eyewitnesses stop Raymonds car, which is blocked by a traffic jam. He hit a rickshaw while trying to get away and overturns it with four children inside it. This further infuriates an already agitated crowd. Raymond refuses to come out of his car telling the traffic warden the crowd would kill him. A couple of angry people shatter his rear window and one of his back lights. The traffic warden, sensing the mood of the crowd and in a move that probably saved Raymond from being lynched by the crowd, asks Raymond to move into the passenger seat and himself gets into Raymonds driver seat and drives him to the nearest police station.


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## architect_cobb

santro said:


> *
> 
> The fact that it can be traced back to you, if I want to kill some to steal their mobile, Id rather not have anything traced back to me.
> *


*

so if one robs you would he leave his licensed weapon with you as an exchange so that it could be traced back?

licenses are only helpful in hands of gentlemen, With robbers whether you have a license or not doesnt make a difference.*

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## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> Of course vehicles take bullets in the front windshield which then exist the rear window of the same vehicle.
> 
> A guy is shot at, windshield is hit three times, bullets pass through and knock out the rear window. Who wouldn't then shoot back?



I'm afraid you're wrong. Here's why:

(i) Raymond Davis fired at the motorcylists through the windshield of his car. 4 bullets hit one guy, 3 bullets hit the other guy. If you look at the picture of the windscreen, at first sight, it appears there are 5 holes, but if you look closely, some are double holes (where the bullets passed twice or thrice through the same spot). If the windshield holes were caused by the motorcyclists, Raymond would have been dead as they were bang in the centre of the driver's seat section of the windshield. If you shoot at a Honda Civic from a motorcyle from the front, the bullets cannot exit from the rear window because the guy on the motorcycle is sitting higher and you're pointing your gun downwards towards the front passengers. If the bullets miss the passengers in front, they will, at best, hit the rear seats, not the rear window. Go to a Honda showroom and see for yourself. There are no bullet holes in the front or rear seats of the vehicle. 

(ii) The motorcyclists, only one of whom had a gun, didn't fire a single shot. The car has no bullet holes except the windshield ones, which were caused by Raymond's own shots from the inside. 

(iii) No shots were fired towards the rear of the vehicle. The motorcylists were in front of the vehicle and were shot at towards the front. 

(iv) The rear window was shattered by angry protestors, no bullets were fired through the rear window. ARY NEWS, which is a local TV news channel, has just shown new footage of the incident from atop a nearby building after the shooting in which Raymond's car is surrounded by an angry mob and the rear window is intact. Somone please find out if the ARY NEWS footage has been uploaded on YOUTUBE. The mob shattered the rear window.

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## architect_cobb

Shameel said:


> Here's what I know from a police source:
> 
> The two people Raymond Davis shot dead were returning from a court hearing where one of them was a witness in a murder case. One of the murder victims brother had been murdered a month ago and he was carrying a licensed pistol for his own protection, fearing for his own life.


so do you carry a gun each time you go to the court?


> Raymond Davis, the US Consulate Technical Advisor, off-duty, comes out of a bank after withdrawing some money from an ATM machine. In a case of pure bad luck, the two guys on the motorcycle pass by his car as he drives away from the bank. At a traffic stop, Raymond sees the sidearm of one of the guys and pulls out his gun as a precuation thinking they either want to rob him or could be terrorists.


and what if one claims that certain group had been tracking him and him being an american would have been a trophy kill, chased him and on a signal wanted to kill/rob him.

Or what if these two were Ray's agents and had some kind of a tussle/disagreement with him on money and decided to settle it on the roads with guns?

Well yes I know this is all out of thin air but so is your story so till the time more facts are known neither of us is in a position to corroborate what actually happened. Since as I have mentioned earlier the suspect was not on a shooting rampage and not killing at random.



> In Lahore, people have a tendency to stare at foreigners because they are a novelty, especially in public. The guy on the motorcycle, who himself is paranoid about his own life, sees Raymond pull out his gun and grabs his own weapon for protection. He doesn't pull it out or fire at Raymond, just grabs it. At that moment Raymond, mistakenly thinking he's about to be fired upon and trained to pre-empt, fires shots through the windshield of his car at both the motorcycle guys killing both. They were shot from behind. He then takes pictures of the two dead people (to prove later that one of the dead guys was armed) and starts to leave the scene of the crime. At this moment eye-witnesses start to chase him. Raymond had already called for back up soon after the shots are fired. A back-up vehicle arrives in minutes and sees the traffic jam and takes the incoming lane on the wrong side to get to Raymond. In the process it hits two pedestrians, one of whom is killed. It then abandons the rescue plan and speeds away (i.e. hit and run). In the meantime a traffic warden and eyewitnesses stop Raymonds car, which is blocked by a traffic jam. He hit a rickshaw while trying to get away and overturns it with four children inside it. This further infuriates an already agitated crowd. Raymond refuses to come out of his car telling the traffic warden the crowd would kill him. A couple of angry people shatter his rear window and one of his back lights. The traffic warden, sensing the mood of the crowd and in a move that probably saved Raymond from being lynched by the crowd, asks Raymond to move into the passenger seat and himself gets into Raymonds driver seat and drives him to the nearest police station.



and now that he is in custody, I don't know if he jumped to conclusions and had a knee jerk reaction but I can tell for sure that many people on this forum are for sure are jumping to one while nobody knows what happened for sure?


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## Shameel

architect_cobb said:


> so do you carry a gun each time you go to the court



Are you sure you live in Pakistan? In Pakistan, witnesses are murdered in court and near courts so it is very common to carry weapons to and from court. They don't enter the court rooms with the weapons, but to the court gates, yes.

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## Shameel

architect_cobb said:


> and now that he is in custody, I don't know if he jumped to conclusions and had a knee jerk reaction but I can tell for sure that many people on this forum are for sure are jumping to one while nobody knows what happened for sure?



This is a "discussion forum" where people have the right to formulate and express their opinions about events. If you don't like opinions, don't hang around discussion fora.


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## architect_cobb

Shameel said:


> Are you sure you live in Pakistan? In Pakistan, witnesses are murdered in court and near courts so it is very common to carry weapons to and from court. They don't enter the court rooms with the weapons, but to the court gates, yes.



so if an american pulls out a gun or carries one cause of what you just said he is wrong???? 

Dude you just contrdicted your previous posts.


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## architect_cobb

Shameel said:


> This is a "discussion forum" where people have the right to *formulate and express their opinions about events*. If you don't like opinions, don't hang around discussion fora.



No need to get overly emotional. Seems I touched a nerve there. Apparently you are the one who doesn't like my opinions here, I was just pointing out what was wrong with yours and thats what happens in a DISCUSSION FORUM.


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## architect_cobb

Shameel said:


> I'm afraid you're wrong. Here's why:
> 
> (i) 4 bullets hit one guy, 3 bullets hit the other guy. .



source of this information???


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## pakdefender

architect_cobb said:


> so if an american pulls out a gun or carries one cause of what you just said he is wrong????
> 
> Dude you just contrdicted your previous posts.



wow! I mean just WOW! the american was not just carrying the gun he USED it to KILL and not just the one who was carrying the gun but the one drivng the bike also AND his rat accomplice who ran over a bystander killing him as well!

There is no way this guy should be let off .. this is a clear cut case of murder and this guy must be prosecuted , convicted and sentenced.


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## Shameel

architect_cobb said:


> so if an american pulls out a gun or carries one cause of what you just said he is wrong????
> 
> Dude you just contrdicted your previous posts.




Dude, how exactly did I contradict my previous posts?

Did I say anything about the American not having the right to carry a weapon? 

And now that you've raised the issue, for the record, in Pakistan, a gun license does not mean you can use it to kill a human being. If you kill somebody, you will be arrested (notwithstanding the license) and charged with First Degree Murder under Section 302 of the Pakistan Penal Code, 1860, and the onus will be on you to prove that you used it in self defence.


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## iioal malik

*Court grants 6-day remand of American
*
Updated at: 1452 PST, Friday, January 28, 2011
LAHORE: US Consulate employee was produced in court Friday on double murder charges, Geo News reported, a day after he shot dead two men on a motorcycle in what he said was self-defence.

The US citizen was appeared before the Senior Judge Zafar Iqbal who handed over the accused to the police on six-day remand.

The man, Raymond Davis was described by the State Department in Washington as an American civilian working for the US Consulate in Lahore.

A third Pakistani was crushed to death by a consulate car that went to the scene to aid the man following the shooting in a busy street in the eastern city.

Provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah said officials had asked the US Consulate to release the second vehicle and its driver to police.

The US embassy in Islamabad has confirmed the man involved was a consular worker but said it was still trying to work out with the police what had happened.

Punjab minister Sanaullah said no American pressure would be allowed to influence the criminal case.

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## pakdefender

The murderer is in custody and is being interogated , there are hundreds of witnesses , the public is aware of the case and the media is on to it. There will be very littel wiggle room for the weasels to try and slithers and slip away from this act of murder.

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## architect_cobb

Shameel said:


> Dude, how exactly did I contradict my previous posts?
> 
> For the record, in Pakistan, a gun license does not mean you can use it to kill a human being. If you kill somebody, you will be arrested, despite the license, and the onus will be on you to prove that you used it in self defence.



isnt that whats happening? he has been arrested and the onus is on him to prove it was in self defence.


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## iioal malik

*Accused American to be tried under Pakistani law: Rana
*
Updated at: 1602 PST, Friday, January 28, 2011
LAHORE: Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah said US citizen Raymond Davis, allegedly involved in killing two people, will be tried under Pakistani law.

He said that the American seemed to have been on personal business at the time of the shooting.

"He said that he was returning from withdrawing cash from a bank and we are verifying this," Provincial Law Minister said.

"Every citizen has the right of self-defence but there are several requirements for the claim of self-defence. If those requirements have been met, he can use it in court, Rana added.

Imran Haider, the elder brother of one of the motorcyclists, 22-year-old Faizan Haider, said his brother only carried a pistol for protection, following the death of a third brother last month, and insisted the gun was licensed.

He said his brother was travelling home with his friend from a court hearing when the incident took place.

"My brother was innocent, he was not a criminal. We need justice," said the 34-year-old, adding that his mother had been hospitalised with a pre-existing heart condition following her son's death.

Provincial Law Minister said the US consulate had agreed to release the second vehicle to police.

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## architect_cobb

pakdefender said:


> wow! I mean just WOW! the american was not just carrying the gun he USED it to KILL and not just the one who was carrying the gun but the one drivng the bike also AND his rat accomplice who ran over a bystander killing him as well!



so what do you carry a gun for. To use it if attacked. And when you use it shoots bullets not water which you might be thinking.

Yes the question sure is whether it was an act of self defence or not. Its to early to tell however the events do show it *could* be.



> There is no way this guy should be let off .. this is a clear cut case of murder and this guy must be prosecuted , convicted and sentenced.



thats not for you to decide fortunately!!


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## Shameel

architect_cobb said:


> source of this information???



Twenty-Five 24-hour news channels in Pakistan.


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## ashok321

How many of you think he will be convicted?

You will see him in US after several days....


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## pakdefender

The people who have been killed were no robbers , they were ordinary people who were already in search of justice and whose life was cut short by a bunch of paranoid bastards who have no business to be there in the fist place.

Let this be rallying call , a call to get justice for at least this one time against a lying , tyranical , two faced , blood thirsty opressor.


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## ashok321

pakdefender said:


> The people who have been killed were no robbers , they were ordinary people who were already in search of justice and whose life was cut short by a bunch of paranoid bastards who have no business to be there in the fist place.
> 
> Let this be rallying call , a call to get justice for at least this one time against a lying , tyranical , two faced , blood thirsty opressor.



Suspects were armed with fire arms, so its self defense fire!


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## Shameel

architect_cobb said:


> isnt that whats happening? he has been arrested and the onus is on him to prove it was in self defence.



Exactly. No argument there. See, I'm reasonable. I don't disagree unnecessarily. 

I didn't contradict myself as you claimed earlier.


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## architect_cobb

does anybody know whether the guns carried by the dead were drawn or not?


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## Shameel

ashok321 said:


> Suspects were armed with fire arms, so its self defense fire!



O shucks! Here we go again! 

Let's see here now:

3 people dead. Only 1 carrying licensed firearm, which was not used according to Lahore Police. 

Shots fired:

Raymond: 7 (at least) 
Deceased: 0


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## pakdefender

architect_cobb said:


> so what do you carry a gun for. To use it if attacked. And when you use it shoots bullets not water which you might be thinking.
> 
> Yes the question sure is whether it was an act of self defence or not. Its to early to tell however the events do show it *could* be.
> 
> 
> 
> thats not for you to decide fortunately!!



This rat was never attaked , he fired first and yes it will be for the courts to decide , luckily the courts in Lahore are bit more independant and the lawyers are more active so will be a good test for our justice system.

You in the mean time work on preparing the next dinner or luch or just a massage to the US embassy staffers and feel happy over it


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## iioal malik

I don't get the reason why people from pakistan trying to be over smart by defending some1 who killed 2 ppl on the street in front of crowd wat could be more insane then this..


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

iioal malik said:


> I don't get the reason why people from pakistan trying to be over smart by defending some1 who killed 2 ppl on the street in front of crowd wat could be more insane then this..



and then we wonder! It is always the self hating Paks...........


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## ashok321

Shameel said:


> O shucks! Here we go again!
> 
> Let's see here now:
> 
> 3 people dead. Only 1 carrying licensed firearm, which was not used according to Lahore Police.
> 
> Shots fired:
> 
> Raymond: 7 (at least)
> Deceased: 0




You and me wont judge this murder - ultimately superpower will, one who got Kazi from Pakistan with some dollars...


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## architect_cobb

pakdefender said:


> This rat was never attaked , he fired first and yes it will be for the courts to decide ,


I am sure the suspect disagrees and as per the reports the murdered motorbikers had the guns drawn since they were lying besides their bodies not tucked in.



> luckily the courts in Lahore are bit more independant and the lawyers are more active so will be a good test for our justice system.


so you are testing the courts which you claim to be independent? thats funny that you want them to give a verdict which you have already reached. You might be gravely disappointed then my friend cause courts dont work that way.



> You in the mean time work on preparing the next dinner or luch or just a massage to the US embassy staffers and feel happy over it



and where does this come from? So much hatred for a simple disagreement.  Probably you are not used to difference of opinion but who in Pakistan is


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## zs4

Shameel said:


> Here's what I know from a police source:
> 
> One of the murder victims brother had been murdered a month ago and he was carrying a licensed pistol for his own protection, fearing for his own life.



If you believe in Allah, you don't need guns for protection.


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## Shameel

ashok321 said:


> How many of you think he will be convicted?
> 
> You will see him in US after several days....




Hmm...depends on how you define "several days" because Ray was presented by the Police before a Magistrate in Lahore (as required to be done within 48 hours of the arrest under Pakistani law) who gave Lahore Police 6-days physical remand of Ray. So my bet is at least 6 days...for now.


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## American Eagle

I think your low key rebuttals are pretty good vs. a hyped false atmosphere where folks, many not even inside Pakistan, think they know all the answers.

Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car.

Have a good weekend and let the facts be better known vs. all this goofy ranting and raving while many more killed and wounded Pakistanis got a fraction of this Threads attention for the Lahore terrorist suicide bombing of fellow innocent Paksitanis just the day before.

Yes, I am rubbing that in because it is the bigger issue and this Thread is falsely blown out of all proportion to the truth once the crazies are silenced by a proper silence in the audience court hearing.


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## architect_cobb

ashok321 said:


> You and me wont judge this murder - ultimately superpower will, one who got Kazi from Pakistan with some dollars...



yaar tu kon mein khamkhawah? 

probably stick to the topic if you want to post


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## Abu Zolfiqar

architect_cobb said:


> isnt that whats happening? he has been arrested and the onus is on him to prove it was in self defence.



was he authorized to carry and operate the weapon in his posession in the first place?

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## Shameel

zs4 said:


> If you believe in Allah, you don't need guns for protection.



True. But Allah, with all due respect, doesn't want you to come out of the toilet with your "dick in your hands" (instead of a gun) to quote from 'The Godfather'.


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## ashok321

architect_cobb said:


> yaar tu kon mein khamkhawah?
> 
> probably stick to the topic if you want to post



You know how US works, and more than that pakistan who surrendered Kazi to FBI......

Remember he is white american and not a negro...

He will fly to his motherland in front of u n me....


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## architect_cobb

American Eagle said:


> I thin your low key rebuttals are pretty good in a hyped falsely atmosphere where folks, many not even inside Pakistan, think they know all the answers.
> 
> Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car.



right now we dont know the sequence of events so it would be jumping to conclusions. three Pakistanis are dead two shot one hit by a car. Hopefully we would soon find out what actually happened.



> Have a good weekend and let the facts be better known vs. all this goofy ranting and raving while many more killed and wounded Pakistanis got a fraction of this Threads attention for the Lahore terrorist suicide bombing of fellow innocent Paksitanis just the day before.
> 
> Yes, I am rubbing that in because it is the bigger issue and this Thread is falsely blown out of all proportion to the truth once the crazies are silenced by a proper silence in the audience court hearing.



this thread is definitely blown out of proportion more so cause of hatred for USA then anything else.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

American Eagle said:


> I thin your low key rebuttals are pretty good in a hyped falsely atmosphere where folks, many not even inside Pakistan, think they know all the answers.
> 
> Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car..



how did the alleged bullets miss him, why arent there bullet holes in the headrest or rear seats? Why are the bulletholes in the windscreen protruding outwards (adjust your lenses and look closely at the pic i attached)

your theory simply dont add up, old man. 

try again


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## architect_cobb

ashok321 said:


> Remember he is white american and not a *negro...*
> 
> .



woah woah such words are nto welcome. And those to be an Indian as if they are any less kala


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## ashok321

architect_cobb said:


> woah woah such words are nto welcome. And those to be an Indian as if they are any less kala




How can Pakistan who gets Kerry Luger dollars keep white american???

Be practical, or I will send you the world politcs affairs copy to you with my expenses....


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## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> I think your low key rebuttals are pretty good vs. a hyped false atmosphere where folks, many not even inside Pakistan, think they know all the answers.
> 
> Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car.
> 
> Have a good weekend and let the facts be better known vs. all this goofy ranting and raving while many more killed and wounded Pakistanis got a fraction of this Threads attention for the Lahore terrorist suicide bombing of fellow innocent Paksitanis just the day before.
> 
> Yes, I am rubbing that in because it is the bigger issue and this Thread is falsely blown out of all proportion to the truth once the crazies are silenced by a proper silence in the audience court hearing.



Et tu Brute!?

My point is this:

1. The two deceased motorcycle guys were innocent. They didn't fire a single shot. 

2. Raymond killed them by mistake by misinterpreting their actions. He didn't plan to kill them. He wasn't drunk. In court today, he said he thought they were going to kill him and he wants to apologize to their families. 

3. Rear Window was shattered by the mob when they surrounded his Honda Civic (will find that ARY NEWS video and post you the link). 

Have a great weekend.


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## Hawk Eyes

Pakistani police escort arrested US national Raymond Davis to a court in Lahore, Jan. 28, 2011. An American man was being held at a Pakistan police station on double murder charges, police said, a day after he shot dead two men on a motorcycle in what he said was self-defense. 
(Arif Ali/AFP/Getty Images)

Lahore Shooting: Raymond Davis, American Official Involved in Shooting in Pakistan Identified - ABC News


^^^thats the shooter


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> how did the alleged bullets miss him, why arent there bullet holes in the headrest or rear seats? Why are the bulletholes in the windscreen protruding outwards (adjust your lenses and look closely at the pic i attached)
> 
> your theory simply dont add up, old man.
> 
> try again



AZ, I saw at least 5 bullet holes clearly on Express new just now. all in the same area of the windshield.
Assuming the windows were closed, could the sheer blast from the muzzle have shaterred the rear windshield considering the number of bullets fired.
regardless, shooting someone in the back does not sit well with the courts. I know that from some accounts here in the US.


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## pakistanamerican

I dont think the guy did any thing wrong, if some with guns is chaseing you, and you think they mean you harm you have a right to shoot them. I would do the same thing in the USA.


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## Shameel

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> was he authorized to carry and operate the weapon in his posession in the first place?



Good point. Only the Foreign Ministry and Interior Ministry can answer this one. All foreigners need written permission to own or carry weapons and this is given by the Interior Ministry through the Foreign Ministry.


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## Shameel

pakistanamerican said:


> I dont think the guy did any thing wrong, if some with guns is chaseing you, and you think they mean you harm you have a right to shoot them. I would do the same thing in the USA.



...and get arrested and shipped to Guantanamo without a trial.

You're assuming that they were chasing him. It's the Accused's version of events.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

appears he had prior experience in the U.S. Special Forces

so he was quite 'deft' with the firearm he was operating...i guess also trained to be more instinctive. 

again, he wasnt authorized to carry firearm so that in itself is a problem which the courts will likely address

so far there don't seem to be any signs that he was fired upon; no witnesses (several of which there were) claim that the pillion rider on the bike had drawn his weapon and was aiming (hypothetically, he would have to be turned around and aim behind him since Davis's Civic was behind at the time


of course things like this happen so fast; but it is inexcusable to be in dereliction of the host country's laws (diplomatic or non-diplomatic)

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## Shameel

ashok321 said:


> You and me wont judge this murder - ultimately superpower will, one who got Kazi from Pakistan with some dollars...




Perhaps. But for the time being, a judge in Lahore called Mehr Zafar Iqbal Syal is judging this murder and he just remanded Raymond Davis to police custody for the next 6 days.


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## pakdefender

So he's a private security contractor , in other words scum of the earth , blood thirsty mercinary.

Here is a link to his 'company'
Page Title


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## Abu Zolfiqar

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> AZ, I saw at least 5 bullet holes clearly on Express new just now. all in the same area of the windshield.
> Assuming the windows were closed, could the sheer blast from the muzzle have shaterred the rear windshield considering the number of bullets fired.
> regardless, shooting someone in the back does not sit well with the courts. I know that from some accounts here in the US.



no, muzzle wouldnt have caused it to shatter (my own assesment)

my guess is that amidst the confusion and anger, the emotional angry crowd began bashing the car.....it's inevitable in times like this that people would be angry

the pedestrian killed was a 5 year old child, crossing the street with his father

i am glad Mr. Davis wasn't lynched or beaten......I would say that the public did show responsibility by not engaging in mob-like behaviours

the courts will determine his innocence or guilt; and we should welcome US cooperation on this matter provided it does not hinder or sway the sovereign decision of the local concerned courts


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## Shameel

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Assuming the windows were closed, could the sheer blast from the muzzle have shaterred the rear windshield considering the number of bullets fired.



Now where's that damned ARY NEWS video showing the intact rear windshield just before it was shattered by mob!...


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## fida jan

ary channel is reporting that the david guy is suspected of spying, he was an ex military and ws working for black water and some thing wrong happened with his spying activity...


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## mehru

American Eagle said:


> I think your low key rebuttals are pretty good vs. a hyped false atmosphere where folks, many not even inside Pakistan, think they know all the answers.
> 
> Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car.
> 
> Have a good weekend and let the facts be better known vs. all this goofy ranting and raving while many more killed and wounded Pakistanis got a fraction of this Threads attention for the Lahore terrorist suicide bombing of fellow innocent Paksitanis just the day before.
> 
> Yes, I am rubbing that in because it is the bigger issue and this Thread is falsely blown out of all proportion to the truth once the crazies are silenced by a proper silence in the audience court hearing.



The real reason that the thread is still running is that it's a pending case. People will move on after the case verdict. As for the people giving their opinions rather than facts, i think it's natural. People are emotional right now because this murder was not carried out by the usual terrorist rather it involves a foreigner so i think it will be wise of you to ignore such posts. You being a military professional should be wise enough to understand that people always overreact in emotions.

You seem to be really concerned about the previous bombings. I have no idea that why you are bringing them again and again to mock us somehow or perhaps you don't want to discuss it.

However how come you miss to register your condemnation in these threads? Here i post the links. Write RIP in each of these threads.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/90428-blast-karachi-malir-4.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/90407-blast-lahore-4.html

There are more previous bombing where i didn't see your condemnation. Does this mean that you don't feel sorry and have only felt to come online to defend an American?

It's strange that you seem to be suggesting that we are somehow insensitive to bomb attacks and we don't give them enough attention. It depends on the attack. Most of the attacks are suicide bombings. The culprit always kills himself so no question of apprehending. TTP always proudly claim responsibility. As there is insurgency going on, people have accepted such attacks as part of life.

This "overblown thread" has still less pages then let's say suicide bombings of data darbar or ahmedis attack. I didn't know that number of pages are a measure of someone's concern.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...st-crowded-daata-darbar-shrine-lahore-45.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/59553-terrorist-attack-ahmadi-mosques-lahore-50.html

I hope you will realize that we are concerned.


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## ashok321

Ther fallen will be compensated by USG and the white guy would board a flight back home........end of the story.

I dont have crystal ball guys, but this is what is gonna happen, whether you like it or not....money talks, BS walks.....even sharia laws allow compensation with money.....so!


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## Shameel

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the pedestrian killed was a 5 year old child, crossing the street with his father



No, the poor pedestrian was a 20-something trader called Obaid ur Rehman, who was getting married in 3 months time.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

ashok321 said:


> Ther fallen will be compensated by USG and the white guy would board a flight back home........end of the story.
> 
> I dont have crystal ball guys, but this is what is gonna happen, whether you like it or not....money talks, BS walks.....even sharia laws allow compensation with money.....so!



You might wanna rethink! The GOP would have to think twice. Teh reaction could lead to something undesirable. Just look around and see people on the streets against unpopupal regimes etc.
As for Sharia...................... well that is up to the bereaved families and there are 3 of them.
Sine you do not have a crstyal ball, do not speculate.


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## logic

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> and then we wonder! It is always the self hating Paks...........



I had only heard about self hating jews now we have self hating pakistani's too


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## zs4

ABC News : "Davis runs Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC, a company that provides "loss and risk management professionals."

Time of India and Yahoo India:
"The number plate of the US consulate vehicle that knocked down and killed a motorcyclist as it sped to help an American employee who had shot dead two youths in Lahore has been found to be fake, a probe has revealed. "

Black Ops?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Shameel said:


> No, the poor pedestrian was a 20-something trader called Obaid ur Rehman, who was getting married in 3 months time.



thank you for the correction......

Inna Lillahi wa Inna Ilayhi Rajiun

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## Ahmad

ashok321 said:


> Ther fallen will be compensated by USG and the white guy would board a flight back home........end of the story.
> 
> I dont have crystal ball guys, but this is what is gonna happen, whether you like it or not....money talks, BS walks.....even sharia laws allow compensation with money.....so!



the way things have developed since this accident, it makes it imposible for the guy to go free. if convicted, he will be transfered to the US to spend his time in jail, and that is the best he could get.


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## Shameel

mehru said:


> The real reason that the thread is still running is that it's a pending case. People will move on after the case verdict. As for the people giving their opinions rather than facts, i think it's natural. People are emotional right now...



Bang on. 

Why do Americans forget their own obsession with murders and the media hype that surrounds them. O.J. Simpson trial being a case in point.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

logic said:


> I had only heard about self hating jews now we have self hating pakistani's too



Is that a surprise?


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## architect_cobb

One way to find out whether Ray Davis was fired upon or not would be to confirm whether the guns of murdered were drawn or not. As per my information they were.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

architect_cobb said:


> One way to find out whether Ray Davis was fired upon or not would be to confirm whether the guns of murdered were drawn or not. As per my information they were.



Forensics can determine that by looking for gunpowder residues on the deceased hands to determine if they were fired. Can also be determined by analyzing the crime scene,If they had the guns drawn. The gun/guns should be on the ground as it is kinda hard to keep your composure and hold on to objects if hit by several bullets.


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## mikkix

I m waiting when he will be released,
The question is how much money we asked....


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## Shameel

pakdefender said:


> So he's a private security contractor , in other words scum of the earth , blood thirsty mercinary.
> 
> Here is a link to his 'company'
> Page Title



Source please?


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

architect_cobb said:


> As per my information they were.



Cant go thru each posted here. Can you pls provide a link? Thanks.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no all they need to do is question witnesses, cross-examine accounts, and of course look for the bullet casing(s) on the ground (if any)

quite straight forward


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## pakdefender

Shameel said:


> Source please?



see in this link

Lahore Shooting: Raymond Davis, American Official Involved in Shooting in Pakistan Identified - ABC News



> Davis runs *Hyperion Protective Consultants*, LLC, a company that provides "loss and risk management professionals."
> 
> Since it is not known in what capacity Davis was working for the government, it is not clear whether he is entitled to diplomatic immunity.



http://hyperion-protective.com/index.html


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no all they need to do is question witnesses, cross-examine accounts, and of course look for the bullet casing(s) on the ground (if any)
> 
> quite straight forward



some would have an issue with that too... some how

---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------




mikkix said:


> I m waiting when he will be released,
> The question is how much money we asked....



How much would you take for 3 dead brothers? Shame on you.


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## Shameel

ashok321 said:


> Ther fallen will be compensated by USG and the white guy would board a flight back home........end of the story.
> 
> I dont have crystal ball guys, but this is what is gonna happen, whether you like it or not....money talks, BS walks.....even sharia laws allow compensation with money.....so!




So what? What's your point? If the U.S. pays the victims "blood money" as it is called, which you correctly point out is in accordance with Islamic law and Pakistani law and the families of the deceased forgive him and he goes free, I don't think anyone will have a problem with that (except the deceased maybe). At least the Pakistani law and judicial process would prevail. That's what's important. 

Here's my solution: USG pays $1 million to each victim's family ($3 million total) (tax free), $50,000 to the overturned Rickshaw driver so that he can buy 5 Toyota Corollas and we exchange Ray for Aafia. End of story.


----------



## Mahdi

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> some would have an issue with that too... some how
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> How much would you take for 3 dead brothers? Shame on you.



hhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


----------



## mikkix

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> some would have an issue with that too... some how
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> How much would you take for 3 dead brothers? Shame on you.



Brother,
thats what we are doing since when=dont know.
when i say I means we (pakistan).


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## Shameel

pakdefender said:


> see in this link
> 
> Lahore Shooting: Raymond Davis, American Official Involved in Shooting in Pakistan Identified - ABC News
> 
> 
> 
> Page Title



Thanks. 

It seems Ray won't have diplomatic immunity then.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

mikkix said:


> Brother,
> thats what we are doing since when=dont know.
> when i say I means we (pakistan).



I guess I misunderstood you.
Doesnt seem Punjab Govt is going to play the game though.
Regardless, justice must be served based on the truth, whatever that may be and we must be willing to accept it.


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## VelocuR

See various positive/negative comments from some americans: 

American due in Pakistan court over double killing



> HA HA STUPID AMERICANS WITH GUNS ITS A WORLD WIDE VIRUS!!! all our problems..





> I lived in Pakistan for a year and I knew the American consulate workers in Karachi. The rules were very clear that consulate staff were not to go anywhere without escorts, usually that meant three cars... two armed escort and the one carrying the foreign worker in the middle of the pack. If he was out there on his own the consulate would have some questions for him, ... robbery or not this is a breach of consulate regulations and the Americans will have some questions for this man too





> This is another 007 story of American, the guy was driving car with fake no plate, fake identity, tried to flee from the scene after shooting, US consulate did not reveal his identity and position
> was havily armed and trained, in a restricted zone for consulate officials, shot the men from windscreen while they were infront of the vehicale at a very busy street.
> Another vehicle came from consulate arrived to help him flee and injured many other people and killed another bike rider on the spot with also fake no plate and went back into consulate w/o helping injured people and calling police and all of this was a SELF DEFENCE ........ that will be an interesting case in the court !





> Civilian? oh, boy , this is a 60 years story over and over again. Call it a CIA or mosad agent





> Cut off the aid to Pakistan. They need us more than we need them. You cannot expect the police there to protect people as they are quite incompetent.





> well me being canadian and born and grew up here in canada i say pI@@ ON THE WHOLE WORKS OF THEM ..... IM SICK AND TIRED OF US TRYING TO HELP A BACKWORDS COUNTRY LIKE THEY ARE , WE ARE LOSEING MEN OVER THERE AND FOR WHAT ?...THEY WILL GO RIGHT BACK TO THERE OLD WAYS AS SOON AS WE LEAVE !!!!! . IF ANYTHING BOMB THE CRAP OUT OF THEM , SEND THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGES AND BE DONE WITH IT .THEY HATE US AND ONLY WANT OUR MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE .,,,,,, MORE OVER IF THEY AND ALL PPL FROM THE MIDDLE EAST DONT LIKE TO LEARN ENGLISH AND KEEP THERE CRAP YELLING PRAYERS TO THERESELFS SEND THEM PACKING TO ,,,AND NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,





> Good job!





> Isn't Raymond Davis the same guy that flies on airplanes with strings sticking out of his boots? I doubt that name is a real one and they will find out that the guy is one of their own.... I bet this guy wasn't born in North America


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## architect_cobb

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> *Forensics can determine that by looking for gunpowder residues on the deceased hands to determine if they were fired. *Can also be determined by analyzing the crime scene,If they had the guns drawn. The gun/guns should be on the ground as it is kinda hard to keep your composure and hold on to objects if hit by several bullets.



Exactly, but what if they were drawn and not fired. 

I read in one of the many news sites that the suspect was also taking pictures and movie of the victims after he had shot them* with their weapons lying besides them.*

Secondly why was he recording their videos and taking snapshots when he could have fled rather than wasting those precious minutes in such activities. Either it was for court proceedings or as in Holywood movies "proof of a kill". Which would lead to "did he already know who his victims were going to be and why these two?"

It seems to be little more complicated then it seems to the eye.


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## mikkix

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> I guess I misunderstood you.
> Doesnt seem Punjab Govt is going to play the game though.
> Regardless, justice must be served based on the truth, whatever that may be and we must be willing to accept it.



I believed that Pakistan should demand Aafia before handing him.
we have to give him and we knows all that, so why we should demand Aafia for him.


----------



## zs4

Washington Post reads:

"We will not allow the government to sell the blood of our son," said the victim's father, Shamsad Hussain, 55. "The killer should be hanged.

Lets see what transpires.


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## mikkix

architect_cobb said:


> Exactly, but what if they were drawn and not fired.
> 
> I read in one of the many news sites that the suspect was also taking pictures and movie of the victims after he had shot them* with their weapons lying besides them.*
> 
> *Secondly why was he recording their videos and taking snapshots when he could have fled rather than wasting those precious minutes in such activities. Either it was for court proceedings or as in Holywood movies "proof of a kill". Which would lead to "did he already know who his victims were going to be and why these two?"*
> It seems to be little more complicated then it seems to the eye.



That is really worrying, the guy may involved in terrorist activities in pakistan.


----------



## architect_cobb

mikkix said:


> That is really worrying, the guy may involved in terrorist activities in pakistan.



thats something you are implying. To me it could be anything. I dont know who these two victims were? What were there motives? were they following the suspect or were being followed. Weapons drawn and then photographs leads to something different


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## mikkix

*The guy called Raymond was visited pakistan before too.
he was the same guy that involved in fight with the police officers in his previous visit.*


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## zs4

Business Recorder:
"Interior Minister informed he had ordered inquiry at Federal level to ascertain about the facts regarding the US national named Raymond Davis."

Is the police investigation not good enough?

"Malik, quoting statement of the accused said, the US national fired in self-defence as two boys drew close to his car first from left and then from right side and later took out pistol."

Is he already foreshadowing that this is a self defense case against pistol wielding boys?


----------



## mikkix

*Pakistan interior minister Rehman malik met with Gen. KIyani.*


----------



## zs4

www.Veteranstoday.com had his correct name yesterday and said he was Black Ops. They also reported what was in his car.

"Davis, driving a rented car with phony license plates, loaded with automatic weapons and advanced Israeli built surveillance gear, was heading toward Mozang Chongi, a market district in Lahore that has been the scene of terror bombings in the past, bombings local residents suspect American contractors such as Davis have had a role in."

Where is the online Pakistani press coverage on this?


----------



## logic

Originally Posted by tareymareyikmarzi View Post
some would have an issue with that too... some how
*How much would you take for 3 dead brothers? Shame on you*.



Mahdi said:


> hhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



Baat to sachi hai 
Magar baat hai ruswai ki


----------



## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

mikkix said:


> *
> he was the same guy that involved in fight with the police officers in his previous visit.*



No idea about the incident. is there some old news item available?
Why did he argue with popo?
Regardless, the consular staff here in Pak is very very arrogant & disrespectful from what I ve been told.


----------



## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

zs4 said:


> Veterans Today had his correct name yesterday and said he was Black Ops. They also reported what was in his car.
> 
> "Davis, driving a rented car with phony license plates, loaded with automatic weapons and advanced Israeli built surveillance gear, was heading toward Mozang Chongi, a market district in Lahore that has been the scene of terror bombings in the past, bombings local residents suspect American contractors such as Davis have had a role in."
> 
> Where is the online Pakistani press coverage on this?



Interesting....................


----------



## zs4

don't know how to upload pictures, but here is a link of a map showing the location of this incident and its proximity to Mozang Chongi, Scene of frequent terror attacks: 

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Mozang-Chongi-Lahore-Pakistan.jpg


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## mikkix

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> No idea about the incident. is there some old news item available?
> Why did he argue with popo?
> Regardless, the consular staff here in Pak is very very arrogant & disrespectful from what I ve been told.



the guy slap the police officer in lahore in his previous visit, thats what i have known.
argument was started on signal where he was stopped by the police.


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## zs4

Why is the Lahore consulate there? You have to go to Islamabad for everything anyway.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

zs4 said:


> don't know how to upload pictures, but here is a link of a map showing the location of this incident and its proximity to Mozang Chongi, Scene of frequent terror attacks:
> 
> http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Mozang-Chongi-Lahore-Pakistan.jpg



I remember this place..I remember there used to be a big sing that said "Airport" in english & udru. We used to stand in front of it and ask people which way the airport was.............


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## pakistanamerican

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Interesting....................



Yep it those terrorist american blowing up mosques, cutting peoples heads off.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

pakistanamerican said:


> Yep it those terrorist american blowing up mosques, cutting peoples heads off.



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Interesting.


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## zs4

Why does the interior minister need to have his own inquiry when the police are doing their job?


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## logic

These could be the scene from down town *LAHORE Where Three Innocent Lives Were Taken*

YouTube - Thousands in Cairo, Egypt Protests and Demonstrations on Tuesday January 25, 2011

Hameed Gul Says he will lead the protest against the government the religious right will cause a lot of problem if the guilty is not brought to justice. 

The question is could this incident be a trigger to something bigger remains to be seen.


----------



## Siddiqui A

Hawk Eyes said:


> Here is what the author Chidanand Rajghatta looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Chidanand Rajghatta
> 
> this guy must have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.



hahah i bet hez uglier then the tree he hit ahahaha


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## Cynic Waheed

mehru said:


> The real reason that the thread is still running is that it's a pending case. People will move on after the case verdict. As for the people giving their opinions rather than facts, i think it's natural. People are emotional right now because this murder was not carried out by the usual terrorist rather it involves a foreigner so i think it will be wise of you to ignore such posts. You being a military professional should be wise enough to understand that people always overreact in emotions.
> 
> You seem to be really concerned about the previous bombings. I have no idea that why you are bringing them again and again to mock us somehow or perhaps you don't want to discuss it.
> 
> However how come you miss to register your condemnation in these threads? Here i post the links. Write RIP in each of these threads.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/90428-blast-karachi-malir-4.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/90407-blast-lahore-4.html
> 
> There are more previous bombing where i didn't see your condemnation. Does this mean that you don't feel sorry and have only felt to come online to defend an American?
> 
> It's strange that you seem to be suggesting that we are somehow insensitive to bomb attacks and we don't give them enough attention. It depends on the attack. Most of the attacks are suicide bombings.
> The culprit always kills himself so no question of apprehending. TTP always proudly claim responsibility. As there is insurgency going on, people have accepted such attacks as part of life.
> 
> This "overblown thread" has still less pages then let's say suicide
> bombings of data darbar or ahmedis attack. I didn't know that number of pages are a measure of someone's concern.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...st-crowded-daata-darbar-shrine-lahore-45.html
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/59553-terrorist-attack-ahmadi-mosques-lahore-50.html
> 
> I hope you will realize that we are concerned.



I completely agree with u. The insensivity displayed by a 'miltary professional' is appaling! I mean how wd one know if we speak against terror related incidents if they dont bother to read! That is American arrogance speaking, no amount of clarification wd be enough to persuade otherwise. And the professional knows what has happened as if he was physically present, when the rest of the ACTUAL witnesses say a totally different thing

But isnt it also true that pakistani blood is cheap. i mean thousands die of drone attaks, bombs etc . Who cares? Do we? how many protests did we have today in say islamabad or karschi or even lahore about it? Seriously dont we wanna be treated that way. I mean y should one care about us lot when we have sold our soul to KL and allowing drones etc I dint see no tunasian style protest wen that happened. U no what wd be really sad, when we see him go back to his home town scott free. Afterall doesnt our country need their Aid to survive? Its a sad day for pakistan.

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## zs4

logic said:


> These could be the scene from down town *LAHORE Where Three Innocent Lives Were Taken*
> 
> YouTube - Thousands in Cairo, Egypt Protests and Demonstrations on Tuesday January 25, 2011
> 
> Hameed Gul Says he will lead the protest against the government the religious right will cause a lot of problem if the guilty is not brought to justice.
> 
> The question is could this incident be a trigger to something bigger remains to be seen.



If things don't get better in Pakistan, Pakistan may catch the revolution fever from the Middle East. But that should be a separate thread.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Update : a case against the 2 deceased has been registered at Litton rd PS by a doctor claiming he was robbed of a 60K cell phone by these 2 before the incident happened...........................................
This is per Dunya & Samma live.

Also: The accused was represented in the court by the Assistant AG of Punjab.


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## zs4

Siddiqui A said:


> hahah i bet hez uglier then the tree he hit ahahaha



How is this relevant? Why is he getting blamed for his looks, something he has no control over?


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## sarthak

Even if the 2 men were armed , still why the hell did this guy run the third person over even though the men that wanted to rob him were already dead. Sounds really weird. Personally, i think this guy is guilty


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## JonAsad

American Eagle said:


> Let me again point out that three shots were fired INTO the Amerian's windshield, photos of record in # 241, 242, and in the Friday, Jan. 28, 2011 LONDON GUARDIAN photo of car with back window blown out...from the bullets that passed through the windshield and out through the rear window of the same car.



*Mr American Eagle.*
There is a armature camera footage showing David trying to escape in his white civic after the shoot out hitting other cars, while a traffic warden is trying to stop him. 

The * main point* to notice is that, the rear windscreen of the car is intact, not a single scratch on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJQ5BxgL37I
Look yourself @0.08 to 0.20

This is footage is of while he was escaping, the other videos show the car parked with the rear windscreen broken. What mysteriously shattered the rear windscreen?

P.S there is another video from a cctv camera of a nearby building aired on a news channel today, which shows him speeding away after the incident and the crowd trying to stop him. In the end he escaped.. Point to be noticed again is the rear windscreen was intact.
I will try to post the video later, when it is uploaded on youtube.

Give your expert and unbiased comments on this video evidence.

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## architect_cobb

this was the interview I was talking about where the witness said that the victim had a gun in his hand drawn:-

YouTube - American kills 2 Pakistanis in 'self-defence': Eyewtiness accounts


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## American Eagle

I am interested that anyone and everyone has self opinions or self created versions which may or may not pan out under official investigation.

My views are unchaged. Shots thru front windshield took out the rear window of the American's car.

*



Also, as an aside, his name is Davis and I suspect he is a Protestant, since even that topic has been attempted by arm chair kids writing here from inside Europe and Canada

Click to expand...

*.

Let the facts clearly speak for themselves and folks here stop trying to know it all when they don't.

There are enough conflicting opinions, none are facts, to gag a mule here.


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## ThunderCat

pak-marine said:


> if those were killed were robbers than to fire back and kill those was infact a favour for us



Totally agreed thats what I've been saying to people all along. If that's proven to be true, he should be acquitted of murder and still be charged and fined for carrying an illegal weapon and also given a criminal record for it.

I mean imagine if one of our own had done this; he'd probably been given a gold medal for killing robbers. Even an article i read claimed the police had been looking for these 2 named people for a while which gives me more reason to believe the poor guy did indeed act in self-defense.

But let's wait and see. I read today that according to police, he has had some military training on his background and is able to communicate in Urdu, so that's something more to be suspicious of his intentions.


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## ThunderCat

American Eagle said:


> Who believes what they read in any newspaper?



How about people in North America for starters? Hollywood, CNN, foxnews and other biased, prejudiced forms of media are the source of info for the typical northern American. Its true dude.

But don't get me wrong I want this guy to have a fair and just trial without pressure from the families of those killed


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## American Eagle

The major difference between worldwide free world media and this specific site's baloney writers is that when worldwide media has photos and videos of what has or has not happened, it is not talked to death contrary to the visual facts all the public can see.

EXAMPLE: A writer here today claims the American car rear window was in, then was out. I looked at the video and pix currently avaiable on line here, on this Thread, and this is simply not true.

The bullet holes in the windshield match up 100% with the bullets having passed through the car, blowing out the rear window.

False allegations of "you can see on the video the car still had it's rear window" are absolutely untrue, as in false. Rear window is gone, shot out, a few shards of rear window, very few, are visible around the edges of the rear window. With various angles on the rear window one shot has you looked through the blown out rear window into the the NOT blow out but several bullet holes in the windshield.

No one can fake this one. Clear cut situation of terrorists, others refer to them as robbers, *



point is they were not innocents and the Pakistani Police had arrest warrants out for both for questioning before this shooting event.

Click to expand...

*
Leaping to conclusions here has been disgraceful when contrasted with the paucity of condoling the day before when suicide bomber killed and maimed many right there in same city, Lahore. 

It just boggles a honest persons mind how some people can just defy obvious visual facts, make up lies, or create after the fact witnesses who are suddenly of record but weren't there when events first unfolded on the scene. False witnesses are criminals in and of themselves you know.


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## ThunderCat

sorry but i have to respond to this. some people are making up 'facts'



Jana said:


> he was carrying against the law. *No foreigner can carry arms.*



Wrong. As long as they are authorized by local government (which some are) they can carry, but again they need that special permit.



> Secondly the bullets from his weapon killed *three* Pakistanis are a banned ITEM by International rules. He also failed to produce the license of the weapon neither any document



He killed two. The third was killed by reckless driving of other americans coming to his aid. 



> Thirdly the two bikers which he killed were carrying licensed weapon as per Punjab Law minister speaking on TV. SO now tell me who the heck will use licensed arms for robbery or any other crime?


How about to posses the weapon in the first place? You seriously dont think there has never been a case of criminals using registered weapons in a crime. Do you think carrying a registered weapon is justified to approach someone with it? Not that it justifies the American carrying an illegal weapon.

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## Lankan Ranger

*US consulate official handed over for six-day physical remand
*
US Consulate official, who shot dead two motorcyclists in Lahore, was produced in a court on Friday which handed over the accused to the police on six-day physical remand. 

Raymond Davis, the man involved in the shooting, has been described by the US embassy in Islamabad as a consular official working for the US Consulate in Lahore. "The US embassy is working with Pakistani authorities to determine the facts," the US embassy statement said. 

A third person was also run over and killed by a vehicle of the US consulate carrying Davis's colleagues as they rushed to his aid, police and witnesses said. Police said that the foreigner contacted his colleagues for help immediately after the shooting. "The third person killed was run over by the vehicle as it sped to his aid" said a traffic police official who saw the incident. 

Police registered a case against Davis on after a protest in front of the Lytton Road police station for murder under Section 302. Following the incident, a large number of motorists and locals gathered outside Lahore's Old Anarkali police station and blocked the road by burning tyres. They chanted slogans against the police and demanded immediate arrest of the accused US official. 

Raymond Davis told the court that he had fired his gun in self-defence. Mr Davis is said to have told police that the two men riding on motorcycle had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint. Pakistani investigators have said the two men were probably robbers, although their relatives dispute this. 

A senior police official Faisal Rana said it had been confirmed that the US Consulate official had withdrawn money from an ATM before the incident. He said it also implied that the motorcyclists having pistols were chasing the US Consulate official. 

Lahore's police chief, Aslam Tareen said that Davis was employed on security duties in the consulate. According to Pakistani authorities, he did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms. 

One of the shot motorcyclists has been identified in the Pakistani media as Faizan Haider, who was thought to be in his early 20s. Observers say that the incident could inflame anti-American sentiment in the country. 

The issue of American diplomats or their security detail carrying weapons inside Pakistan was a hot subject in local media last year. The issue was even raised by opposition parties in the parliament, after some armed US officials were stopped by the police. 

However, most of western diplomats travel with armed guards in many parts of Pakistan because of the risk of terrorist attacks.

US consulate official handed over for six-day physical remand - The Times of India


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## RescueRanger

ThunderCat said:


> sorry but i have to respond to this. some people are making up 'facts'
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. As long as they are authorized by local government (which some are) they can carry, but again they need that special permit.
> 
> 
> 
> He killed two. The third was killed by reckless driving of other americans coming to his aid.
> 
> 
> How about to posses the weapon in the first place? You seriously dont think there has never been a case of criminals using registered weapons in a crime. Do you think carrying a registered weapon is justified to approach someone with it? Not that it justifies the American carrying an illegal weapon.





> sorry but i have to respond to this. some people are making up 'facts'


Care to name those "people"?



> Wrong. As long as they are authorized by local government (which some are) they can carry, but again they need that special permit.



And he did not have nor seek special permit, BTW this special permit request is usually "ignored" by Min. Interior and only provided to US State Dept BDS(Bureau of Diplomatic Security/Secret Service/or DOD Assets escorting VIPs on are-determined route.

Furthermore the list of officials travelling "Hot" are to be submitted to SSP Special Branch, SSP Security Police and CCPO Office. Another list is shared with the military and civil intelligence agencies on a need to know basis. 

PLEASE NOTE:

There is a reason we have Diplomatic Security Police / DPD, there is a reason the U.S. Counsulate has clear SOPs that are designed to be followed. 

There is a reason why all movement of "official" staff should be communicated to the RSO: Regional Security Officer and cascaded to the local law enforcement system.

This area of Lahore is "Off Limits" to Officials. Let me just share something to enlighten you:



> Tips on How to Avoid Becoming a Victim
> 
> General Safety:
> · Maintain a low profile and avoid wearing clothing that labels you as an American
> · Situational awareness and common sense are imperative for your personal safety
> · Avoid the appearance of carrying large sums of money
> · Avoid high-risk areas, crowds, and civil disturbances
> · Don&#8217;t be time and place predictable and always vary your routes
> · If you feel that you are being followed or threatened in any way, immediately procede to a safe place such as a government building or police station
> 
> Driving safety tips:
> · Whether you are driving or riding as a passenger, use extreme caution, expect the unexpected, and drive defensively.
> · Expect others to ignore road signs and traffic lights.
> · Proceed through these intersections with caution.
> 
> Hotels and Lodging:
> · As of March 2010, the Avari Hotel is the only RSO-approved hotel for USG personnel to stay in Lahore
> · Other hotels are approved for use of restaurants and services
> · Personal security is paramount
> · Valuables should not be left in rooms
> · U.S. government personnel are advised to stay on lower floors in a hotel as fire fighting resources are severely lacking





> Police Response
> 
> The police services in Pakistan are below the professional standards in the United States due to low levels of training, resources, and salaries. However, the Punjab Police are among the most professional in Pakistan. *The U.S Consulate Lahore maintains an excellent relationship with local police who provide unrivaled support.*





> Road Safety
> 
> The roadways in Lahore continue to improve, although the traffic in the city and the lack of highway traffic patrols have littered the streets with vehicular debris. Driving is also made dangerous by:
> · Typical lack of experience driving on the left side of the road
> · Poorly trained and unskilled local drivers
> · Pedestrians, horse carts, and cattle walking in the road without concern of oncoming traffic
> 
> *The majority of Consulate staff utilize the Motorpool drivers for daily driving. *The roads have limited markings and are poorly lit for night time driving. Because of this, driving at night outside the city is prohibited without approval of the Regional Security Office (RSO).





> The government of Pakistan is proactively countering the indigenous and transnational terrorist threat in Pakistan, with continued military operations in NWFP. Terrorist cells have been aggressively targeting official facilities in Punjab Province in retaliation. *Because of this, the government has implemented tough security countermeasures and precautions to protect* officials, *diplomats*, *and areas frequented by westerners.*



Source: OSAC Crime and Security Report Lahore 2010
https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=9210



> *American officials in Lahore and Islamabad are instructed to restrict the frequency and to minimize the duration of trips to public markets, restaurants, and other locations. * Depending on ongoing security assessments, the U.S. Embassy places areas such as hotels, markets, and/or restaurants *off limits to official personnel. *


Source: Warden Message: Issued by the Islamabad Embassy.
Available at: OSAC.gov


Now tell me, there is line upon line of protocol designed to avoid this sort of thing, tell me was it not a BREACH of protocol designed to PROTECT people like him?


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## Karachiite

This American suvaar should be hanged to death for carrying a weapon and cruising in a car with a fake license number. 

I heard one victim's was about to get married in a few month.


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## ThunderCat

@ ranger. Read my entire posts and also see who they are quoting. I never suggested this guy had authorized weapons, but you didnt read it. 
Try not to react emotionally. Anyways I found an article of interest. I think it explains our governments reaction to the American diplomats which they describe as "harassment" 

Also it's doubtful that this post is reliable in claiming the US government is pressuring Pakistan to hand over this chap. I doubt Americans would sacrifice their interests over one individual. Already their sending theyre soldiers to die in Iraq and Afghanistan and many suspect they killed their own people on 911 to invade Afghanistan so why should this guy matter? 

Anyways here's the article

Will the American be handed over to US?



> ISLAMABAD: Islamabad is under pressure to hand over Raymond Davis, an American who killed two Pakistanis in Lahore, to US Embassy for his early return to the US, it was learnt.
> 
> Informed Foreign Office sources confided to The News here late Friday night that the foreign ministry was under tremendous pressure from Washington to free the killer of two Pakistanis. The US State Department is seeking diplomatic immunity for Raymond Davis though the Pakistani Foreign Office does not recognise the killer as a diplomat.
> 
> These sources said that in a top level contact between the US State Department and Pakistani foreign ministry, the former sought for consular access as well as diplomatic immunity for the killer.
> 
> The government authorities have stated that the law of the land would be followed in the case. The Foreign Office has informed the federal government that the American was not a diplomat who did not enjoy diplomatic immunity. The FO also stated that Raymond Davis has violated the law of the land by carrying a weapon within the territorial limits of Pakistan, it was learnt.
> 
> Sources in the Prime Minister&#8217;s Secretariat said the interior minister had been briefed by the Foreign Office on the subject and had been told that even diplomats were not allowed to carry licensed weapons outside the premises of their respective embassies and consulates.
> 
> Raymond Davis, who killed two Pakistani youth in broad daylight on Thursday in Lahore alleging that they were robbers while the third young man was crushed to death by a US Consulate jeep, initially told the Lahore police that he was a technical adviser but later it turned out that he was in Pakistan on a &#8220;business official&#8221; visa.
> 
> He holds a diplomatic passport but not a diplomatic visa, which guarantees diplomatic immunity under the UN conventions. The last page of his passport has the State Department&#8217;s endorsement that the officer is on a diplomatic assignment but Pakistani Embassy in Washington did not issue him a diplomatic visa.
> 
> The Foreign Office is said to have clearly told the interior minister that the American does not enjoy the status of a diplomat. Police suspect that Davis is an undercover agent. While Davis surrendered himself to the police after he was caught red-handed by the mob at the site of the killing and was stopped from escaping, the Punjab government approached the US authorities here to hand over the vehicle and the driver, which crushed the youth to death while trying to reach Davis, violating the traffic laws and driving on the wrong side of the road.
> 
> The vehicle could not reach Davis but succeeded in driving away and took refuge in the American Consulate. Last year, when two Dutch diplomats were caught red handed while carrying weapons, including hand-grenades, in Islamabad they were allowed to go scot-free despite Foreign Office spokesman&#8217;s clear statement that no foreign diplomat, whether American or Dutch or belonging to any other country, was permitted to carry weapons within the territorial limits of Pakistan.
> 
> On that occasion, the Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit was quoted to have said that those diplomats who were still carrying weapons were behaving inconsistently with the law of the land.
> 
> Interestingly, in the last year&#8217;s Dutch diplomats&#8217; case, the Secretariat police formally lodged the complaint against them besides nominating in the report a US embassy&#8217;s local employee, Sunny Christopher, for unnecessarily intervening into the Dutch diplomats&#8217; episode.
> 
> Some newspaper reports suspect a Dutch-US connection. Some allege that the Dutch were transporting the weapons to the US Embassy. However, US Embassy spokesman had denied these reports.
> 
> Although, the latest Lahore &#8220;adventure&#8221; of the US officials/diplomats is very serious, there have been repeated incidents of American officials/diplomats carrying weapons in public. According to an intelligence report, published by The News, on June 23, 2009 a double cabin vehicle coming from the NWFP side passed through a police checkpost at Golra where the police tried to stop it for checking but it did not stop. The police passed on a wireless message to the next checkpost considering it a suspicious vehicle. It was intercepted at a check post at Khyber Chowk, G-9/4.
> 
> The report said that three American diplomats namely Jeffery, Jeffdic and James Bill Koeen and a driver named Charlie Benzic belonging to Regional Security Section of the US Embassy were found in the vehicle. They were wearing Shalwar Kameez, had beards, were in Pathan get-up and carrying four M-4 machine guns and four 9 mm pistols. The report, however, said that on the intervention of the then SP Sadar, the vehicle was allowed to go.
> 
> In yet another incident, according to the report, on August 5, 2009, Inspector Hakim Khan of Islamabad Police was passing through a checkpost near the US Embassy along with his wife in a private car, he was stopped by a US security official John Arso and was abused. Once the police inspector told the US official that the latter could not check vehicles on a public road, the US diplomat took out his pistol and said that he could do anything anywhere in Pakistan.
> 
> Hakim Khan later formally reported the matter and lodged a complaint with his superiors. No criminal proceedings were initiated against the American but he was sent back to Washington.
> 
> According to a media report, it was considered to get John Arso declared persona non grata and the matter was also referred to the Foreign Office but before the FO could proceed on the matter, the Islamabad Police high ups and the US Embassy resolved the matter by reaching a compromise.
> 
> In yet another incident, on August 12, 2009 a young Pakistani boy, living in the Diplomatic Enclave, along with his two friends was passing through a private security checkpost near the US Embassy on a Suzuki car when a US Marine, who was jogging along with his wife, on the same road, stopped the car and broke it side mirror by kicking at it.
> 
> The Marine, the report said, also abused the boy and the host country too. The young boy and his friends protested following which the US Marine got them detained by the local security guards present there. They were allowed to go after 40 minutes of detention but only with caution that they would never drive again on that particular road.
> 
> In another incident, on August 26, 2009, one Mohsin Bukhari, owner of Shell petrol pump, Sector F-6 (Super Market) was stopped by two US nationals at the traffic signal on the Agha Khan Road, near Marriot Hotel after some routine road driving tension. He was asked to show his identity and then taken to his petrol pump and questioned for 30 minutes after a team of security staff from the US Embassy also joined the two Americans.
> 
> According to the intelligence report, Bukhari is the nephew of Syed Nayyer Bukhari, the Leader of the House in the Senate.
> 
> In yet another incident, the report said, on August 28, 2009 at about 14:00 hours, two vehicles of US Embassy (one five door Prado and one double cabin) were intercepted by the local police on the Kashmir Highway near Peshawar Mor. The vehicles had fake number plates. Initially, the passengers of the vehicles resisted checking but later following the arrival of some security officials, they were requested to allow the police to check them as per the law of the land.
> 
> Upon checking, four Americans, who were identified as Pickel Robin Kenneth, Lister Douglas Michael, Clen Denen Jason Robert and Steele Jr Richard Earl, introduced themselves as US Army officials. They were carrying four M-4 rifles and ammunition with them. They did not have any license or authority letter for carrying these weapons.
> 
> Upon inquiry, they told that they were working with the Frontier Corps, NWFP, but failed to produce any evidence in support of their statement. They were accompanied by one Ahmedullah, an Afghan national, who is said to be living in the US Embassy without any valid travel document or passport. He just carried a letter from the US Embassy.


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## Developereo

It is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the victim's hands after you shoot someone. That way you can claim self-defence.

This Rambo here is a professional. After he shot the two guys, he calmly went over there, took out the guy's gun and put it in his hands to make it seem as if he had drawn it, and then photographed it as evidence.

I suspect he is too smart to leave his prints on the victim's gun, but it would be worth checking anyway.

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## The HBS Guy

Sohni Dharti said:


> It is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the victim's hands after you shoot someone. That way you can claim self-defence.
> 
> This Rambo here is a professional. After he shot the two guys, he calmly went over there, took out the guy's gun and put it in his hands to make it seem as if he had drawn it, and then photographed it as evidence.
> 
> I suspect he is too smart to leave his prints on the victim's gun, but it would be worth checking anyway.



How much did you pay for viewing it live on your crystal ball?


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## somebozo

Its time for some good Pakistani leather chitrool for US official..what a taste he will take back home to remember for life! I wish i could gift a bottle of fresh olive oil to concerned police station to add some flavor to chitrools!

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## Developereo

The HBS Guy said:


> How much did you pay for viewing it live on your crystal ball?



No need for crystal balls. This is a well-known tactic by professionals.

I am not saying he did it, but the fact that he calmly walked over there after shooting those two people, and methodically took photographs shows he is a professional in this matter.


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## The HBS Guy

Sohni Dharti said:


> No need for crystal balls. This is a well-known tactic by professionals.
> 
> I am not saying he did it, but the fact that he calmly walked over there after shooting those two people, and methodically took photographs shows he is a professional in this matter.



and why did he shoot these two people in the first place?


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## Donatello

somebozo said:


> Its time for some good Pakistani leather chitrool for US official..what a taste he will take back home to remember for life! I wish i could gift a bottle of fresh olive oil to concerned police station to add some flavor to chitrools!





They have him in Jail, that's the best thing. Don't let him out. Do not let US consulate interfere. Otherwise this guy is gone.

He doesn't need to go back home, he should spend his life in jail.


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## Developereo

The HBS Guy said:


> and why did he shoot these two people in the first place?



The following version of events seems plausible.



Shameel said:


> Here's what I know from a police source:
> 
> The two people Raymond Davis shot dead were returning from a court hearing where one of them was a witness in a murder case. One of the murder victims brother had been murdered a month ago and he was carrying a licensed pistol for his own protection, fearing for his own life. Raymond Davis, the US Consulate Technical Advisor, off-duty, comes out of a bank after withdrawing some money from an ATM machine. In a case of pure bad luck, the two guys on the motorcycle pass by his car as he drives away from the bank. At a traffic stop, Raymond sees the sidearm of one of the guys and pulls out his gun as a precuation thinking they either want to rob him or could be terrorists. In Lahore, people have a tendency to stare at foreigners because they are a novelty, especially in public. *The guy on the motorcycle, who himself is paranoid about his own life, sees Raymond pull out his gun and grabs his own weapon for protection. He doesn't pull it out or fire at Raymond, just grabs it. At that moment Raymond, mistakenly thinking he's about to be fired upon and trained to pre-empt, fires shots *through the windshield of his car at both the motorcycle guys killing both. They were shot from behind. He then takes pictures of the two dead people (to prove later that one of the dead guys was armed) and starts to leave the scene of the crime. At this moment eye-witnesses start to chase him. Raymond had already called for back up soon after the shots are fired. A back-up vehicle arrives in minutes and sees the traffic jam and takes the incoming lane on the wrong side to get to Raymond. In the process it hits two pedestrians, one of whom is killed. It then abandons the rescue plan and speeds away (i.e. hit and run). In the meantime a traffic warden and eyewitnesses stop Raymonds car, which is blocked by a traffic jam. He hit a rickshaw while trying to get away and overturns it with four children inside it. This further infuriates an already agitated crowd. Raymond refuses to come out of his car telling the traffic warden the crowd would kill him. A couple of angry people shatter his rear window and one of his back lights. The traffic warden, sensing the mood of the crowd and in a move that probably saved Raymond from being lynched by the crowd, asks Raymond to move into the passenger seat and himself gets into Raymonds driver seat and drives him to the nearest police station.



Again, nothing is proven, but it is just a possibility. The physical evidence will decide the final verdict.

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## The HBS Guy

penumbra said:


> They have him in Jail, that's the best thing. Don't let him out. Do not let US consulate interfere. Otherwise this guy is gone.
> 
> He doesn't need to go back home, he should spend his life in jail.



Do you seriously think you'll be able to keep an American in jail for the rest of his life?


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## Developereo

For those who remember the old Pakistani drama *Andhera Ujala*,

"drawing room ki sair keraein inko".

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## RescueRanger

Hello, Hello... What's This?

Steve "Ray" Davis is apparently former Special Forces and runs Hyperion Protective Consulting LLC ( a Private Security Company) based in Orlando, Florida. 
Lahore Shooting: Raymond Davis, American Official Involved in Shooting in Pakistan Identified - ABC News



> A senior former U.S. diplomatic security agent suggested Thursday that the American involved in a fatal shootout in Lahore, Pakistan, was the victim of a spy meeting gone awry, not the target of a robbery or car-jacking attempt.
> 
> "It looks like an informant meet gone bad more than a car-jacking attempt, said Fred Burton, a former deputy chief of the U.S. Diplomatic Security Services counter-terrorism division.


SpyTalk - Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?

Fred Burton

Hijacking you say?

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## ZhengHe

Good job Pakistan  Rid yourself of the devil

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## RescueRanger

Just some food for thought:


> According to one official, for example,
> prior to the Transformational Diplomacy Initiative, State *would have
> evacuated the post in Peshawar, Pakistan, 2 years ago. *However, the U.S.
> government considers its operations in Pakistan to be critically important.


http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10156.pdf
Makes for good reading.


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## RescueRanger

Please merge threads.


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## fatman17

without going into the merits and demerits of what actually happened (and it is quite murky), the authorities are going to let things 'cool-off' and the guy will be quitely wisked-off in the middle of the night to the US - this is SOP in Pakistan.

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## fida jan

this is just a little drama to appease the public esp when PPP is so feeling dead now, we all know the conclusion..., all lines lead to one destiny..


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## American Eagle

Shots were fired into Mr. Davis's windshield, which shots exited through his car rear window, shattering the rear window glass.

No one shoots through their own windshield, and the impressions from the bullet holes prove the shots were fired into the windshield.

This is just another story which contradicts several other stores, which have Davis exiting his car to shoot the two attackers.

Just get over it and let the law and court take their course. Making up long winded opinions or using such speculations from Pakitani press are not facts and are just a waste of time.

Davis was attacked pure and simple, and acted to save his own life.

I note that everyone has gone silent over the second US Consulate car as it may just have been driven by a Pakistani staffer instead of by another America. Now we can't beat up on the Pakistani nationals working with NATO/US in the war on terrorism can we?


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> I note that everyone has gone silent over the second US Consulate car as it may just have been driven by a Pakistani staffer instead of by another America. Now we can't beat up on the Pakistani nationals working with NATO/US in the war on terrorism can we?



You assume much. The Law Minister has requested the driver be handed over and Pakistani or not he will stand trial for his acts.



> Just get over it and let the law and court take their course. Making up long winded opinions or using such speculations from Pakitani press are not facts and are just a waste of time.



ABC and Washington Post are Pakistani?

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## ice_man

incidents like these fuel militancy & radicalism in pakistan! and in the muslim world!! the guy walks away clean and is not even handcuffed when taken to court! 


*no value for pakistani blood! *


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## Patriot

American Eagle said:


> Shots were fired into Mr. Davis's windshield, which shots exited through his car rear window, shattering the rear window glass.


Oh wow what a story you made out of your bloody A$$.Look at the video above.His windshield is perfect when he is running away like a after the shooting.Look at the video above.You seem to be in denial mode that American can't be wrong.This has nothing to do with him being American.What he did was wrong and yous should admit that instead of trying to defend the indefensible act.

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## fida jan

Sohni Dharti said:


> It is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the victim's hands after you shoot someone. That way you can claim self-defence.
> 
> This Rambo here is a professional. After he shot the two guys, he calmly went over there, took out the guy's gun and put it in his hands to make it seem as if he had drawn it, and then photographed it as evidence.
> 
> I suspect he is too smart to leave his prints on the victim's gun, but it would be worth checking anyway.



nice views man, makes some good sense


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## Patriot

American Eagle said:


> I note that everyone has gone silent over the second US Consulate car as it may just have been driven by a Pakistani staffer instead of by another America. Now we can't beat up on the Pakistani nationals working with NATO/US in the war on terrorism can we?


You assume too much old man.Conspiracy theories?

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## Awesome

It's very unlikely that a special forces agent came across some sort of random violence as they'd have us believed.

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## SQ8

architect_cobb said:


> so if one robs you would he leave his licensed weapon with you as an exchange so that it could be traced back?
> 
> licenses are only helpful in hands of gentlemen, With robbers whether you have a license or not doesnt make a difference.



When you carry a licensed weapon, you declare the ammunition you purchase for it. If you used unmarked ammunition and witnesses saw you using a weapon ,the first suspect is your licensed weapon.
Now, if the shell casing from the bullet is not yours(i.e of the ammunition you declared). either you used your weapon or an unlicensed weapon. Your weapon is then checked since every round leaves a residue, and if you used unlicensed ammunition.. you are going to jail. If you did not use your licensed weapon, you are going to jail.

I have seen "gentlemen" in Karachi using their licensed weapons to intimidate people in road rage.

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## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> I am interested that anyone and everyone has self opinions or self created versions which may or may not pan out under official investigation.
> 
> My views are unchaged. Shots thru front windshield took out the rear window of the American's car.
> 
> .
> 
> Let the facts clearly speak for themselves and folks here stop trying to know it all when they don't.
> 
> There are enough conflicting opinions, none are facts, to gag a mule here.



Now you're being totally unreasonable, stubborn and disregarding video evidence. The rear windscreen is clearly intact in footage 0:08 seconds to 0:40 seconds as are both the rear brake lights. This part of the video was made AFTER the shooting when the traffic warden and other witnesses were chasing him trying to make him stop. At one point you even see the reflection in the rear windshield. The rear windshield was shattered and one of the rear brake lights was broken by the mob in anger.

The pictures that you are referring to of the car with its rear windshield shattered and one of its rear lights broken were taken in the police station after the mob had done its work. 

If the rear windshield was completely shattered by firing as you claim, how come the front windshield didn't shatter with the impact of the bullets, it shows more than five bullet holes in it, yet it only cracked and didn't shatter. Are you going to claim that Honda Motors uses different quality glass material for the front and rear windshields?

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## Shameel

A police source is telling me that Raymond's American colleages are offering bribes to the police and false witnesses to give false statements and evidence with a view to undermining the case.


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## Shameel

ice_man said:


> incidents like these fuel militancy & radicalism in pakistan! and in the muslim world!! the guy walks away clean and is not even handcuffed when taken to court!
> [/B]



No he was in handcuffs and chains when he appeared in court. That's the law. In Pakistan, the handcuffs are tied with each other via a long and thick chain so your hands are not together and the chains are tied to the belt of an escorting policeman. 

Look closely at the picture in this link, there's a cuff on his left hand from which a chain is going to his right hand and the chain is tied to a ring in the policeman's belt:
BBC News - US official Raymond Davis on Lahore murder charges


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> It's very unlikely that a special forces agent came across some sort of random violence as they'd have us believed.



I agree. The true story will never be known. There will, of course, be a staged drama, to assuage public feelings, and then the whole circus will move to the next show.


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## pakdefender

As a result of this arrest , one can expect CIA black ops to go into overdrive in the country in order to divert attention from this case , as one can see from the posts of 'american eagle' that he keeps brining up other cases of terrorism to divert attention from the terrorist act commited by this american.


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## JonAsad

Shameel said:


> A police source is telling me that *Raymond's American colleages are offering bribes to the police and false witnesses to give false statements and evidence with a view to undermining the case*.



Yup the two doctors falls under this category.


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## JonAsad

Time is the key.. In this new age, attention span of people is very short. Tomorrow they'll forget every thing. Last month Salman Taseer was killed, now no one ask what happened to the criminal, no one interested any more. Same will happen in this case.

I pray some terrorists do not attack some where in Pakistan, specialy in Lahore, People attention will be easily diverted.


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## Stealth

Kill him like Sialkot brother style... (they are innocent) unfortuntly they killed (BUT THIS AMERICAN A****) must be killed like that because he deserved that style!!

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## Jungibaaz

we are powerless on our own soil.... how sad

those b@st@rds in Islamabad are going to send him back to the US. Where he will be met with a red carpet by uncle sam!


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## Patriot

And most likely will be given Presidential Medal of Freedom


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## Shameel

U.S. Embassy in Islamabad has demanded the "immediate release" of murderer, Raymond Davis. 

First prove that he's a diplomat. Employees are not covered by the Vienna Convention. A-holes.

...and this is going to whip up and further inflame anti-Americanism in Pakistan. Good luck with the blowback!

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## Devil Soul

*US demands release of diplomat in Pakistan*
By CHRIS BRUMMITT, Associated Press &#8211; 5 mins ago
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan &#8211; The United States demanded the immediate release of an American diplomat arrested in the shooting deaths of two Pakistan men, saying Saturday that the man had immunity from prosecution and was illegally detained.
The statement from the embassy raised the stakes in what could emerge as a major dispute between Pakistan and the United States, which is pushing for closer ties with Islamabad to help fight Islamist militancy.
The embassy said the man was acting in self-defense on Thursday in Lahore when he shot and killed two armed men as they approached his car. It said the men were intending to rob him, something police officers have also said.
The man, who has not been named, was taken into custody soon after the shooting and police have said they are investigating him and could file murder charges. U.S. officials were only granted access to him late Friday.
"The United States Embassy in Pakistan calls for the immediate release" of the diplomat, the statement said.
Pakistani officials were not immediately available for comment. They have largely ignored questions over any immunity the American may have.


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## pakdefender

when and how did this guy become a diplomat ?!? This rat is a low life mercinary , a hired gun , a murderer , the US Embassy should go F*** themselves , people of Pakistan should raid the US Embassy if this bastard is released, he should be hanged!

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## MM_Haider

Glorious Resolve said:


> Time is the key.. In this new age, attention span of people is very short. Tomorrow they'll forget every thing. *Last month Salman Taseer was killed*, now no one ask what happened to the criminal, no one interested any more. Same will happen in this case.
> 
> I pray some terrorists do not attack some where in Pakistan, specialy in Lahore, People attention will be easily diverted.



Salman Taseer was killed this month.. you are going too fast buddy.. brake brake...


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## pakdefender

This guy is NO diplomat , he runs a dubious company and is a blackwater-type hired gun , first of all he had no business to be in Pakistan and secondly he has case of murder against him , he should not be released , its good that he has been chained like the dog that he is


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## DV RULES

pakdefender said:


> when and how did this guy become a diplomat ?!? This rat is a low life mercinary , a hired gun , a murderer , the US Embassy should go F*** themselves , people of Pakistan should raid the US Embassy if this bastard is released, he should be hanged!



Emotions have their own place but this is not the way out which you mentioned above, there need only strict action by government according to constitution of Pakistan without any pressure. *No need to violate situation because violence in Pakistan is what exactly anti-Pakistan elements want. *

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## JonAsad

MM_Haider said:


> Salman Taseer was killed this month.. you are going too fast buddy.. brake brake...



Try to understand the irony mate


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## Shameel

pakdefender said:


>



He's even wearing a red-neck shirt.


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## LeGenD

Karachiite said:


> This American suvaar should be hanged to death for carrying a weapon and cruising in a car with a fake license number.


If these two charges (1. possession of illegal weaponry, and 2. using fake number plates) are enough to hang a person, then lot of people in Pakistan can be also hanged for committing these two crimes.



Karachiite said:


> I heard one victim's was about to get married in a few month.


I am not a sympathizer of Mr. Davis but he did not killed this innocent man. This unfortunate man was run over by an American SUV.

Let us be fair in our judgement of things.



Stealth said:


> Kill him like Sialkot brother style... (they are innocent) unfortuntly they killed (BUT THIS AMERICAN A****) must be killed like that because he deserved that style!!


Lynching is not a solution for any crime. Have crime rate drastically fallen in Pakistan after the lynching of two innocent people in Sialkot? 

Law and Order situation should not be disturbed at any cost by civilians. Think about fate of _Pakistani Americans_. They will suffer in response. And diplomatic crises would be another big issue.

We should act civilized, and show the so called 'civilized world' that we are not a *jungli quom* - suitable to be bombed back to stone age.

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## Sulfur

Now we get the opportunity to HAVE SOME BARGAIN....

Man for man (or woman)

Davis is accused for murder in Pakistan &#8594; sent him to jail &#8594; run trial and sentence him death penalty &#8594; immediate American response &#8594; refer to court &#8594; anticipate anti-american demonstrations &#8594; more amerian pressure &#8594; take issue into the parliament &#8594; raise dr. aafia issue &#8594; make deal &#8594; woman against man


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## Shameel

http://tribune.com.pk/story/110999/us-embassy-demands-immediate-release-of-davis/

If he was a diplomat, it was his LEGAL obligation to carry his DIPLOMATIC ID CARD (which is issued by the Foreign Office) with him at all times. The Police is not obligated to release him until his diplomatic status is verified by the Foreign Office. PERIOD.

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## Ahmad

if he is diplomat why is it so difficult for everybody to confirm.

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## logic

Dunya news reporting

1. Raymond Davis had no reason for carrying weapons.
2. Raymond Davis has no diplomatic immunity.
3. If he had any immunity US would not have asked for one.
4. They are investigating his visa.

Sources: Foreign Office (Pakistan)

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## Shameel

Tribune Alerts:

Raymond to Police Investigating Officer:

I&#8217;M A TECHNICAL OFFICER AT U.S. CONSULATE: RAYMOND DAVIS 

THERE&#8217;S A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH YOU CAN PRESS ME FOR INFORMATION: DAVIS 

I&#8217;M NOT GOING TO DISCLOSE WHY I WAS IN MOZANG: RAYMOND DAVIS

The Express Tribune - Latest Breaking Pakistan News, Business, Life, Style, Cricket, Videos, Comments

Interesting:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/110900/lahore-shootings-as-the-case-unfolds-the-mystery-deepens/

"A new angle to the incident, submitted in a statement by Davis himself, has it that the vehicle he was driving had had a minor collision with a Rickshaw a little before the incident. Therefore, if not a robbery, the two men could have chased the vehicle to argue with the driver."

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## logic

LeGenD said:


> We should act civilized, and show the so called 'civilized world' that we are not *jungli quom - suitable to be bombed back to stone age.*



To set the record straight 
NOT a single person has laid a finger on this guy.
He has shot dead two innocent civilians.
He then went on a rampage and is guilt of every traffic violation that we have a law for in Pakistan.
He was so scared that he shot the two guys from behind and then shot them one more time after they were on the ground. He did not even stop there and started taking there photos and harassed public and police with his weapon. Injuring and ramming various people and vehicle's on the road many of them being children.


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## mohsinkid

The culprit used hollow point bullets ...is it legal ???


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## Durrak

ISLAMABAD: The United States on Saturday called for the immediate release of a US citizen Raymond Davis, allegedly involved in killing of two local citizens in Lahore, it said was unlawfully detained by authorities, US embassy in Islamabad said.

"When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations," it said in a statement.


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## afriend

Sala.. what diplomatic immunity are they talking about? Killing citizens of another country under the saftey of diplomatic immunity is the complete crap. He should be tried and punished under the laws of the land on which he committed the crime. Diplomatic immunity laws should be removed.

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## afriend

logic said:


> To set the record straight
> NOT a single person has laid a finger on this guy.
> He has shot dead two innocent civilians.
> He then went on a rampage and is guilt of every traffic violation that we have a law for in Pakistan.
> He was so scared that he shot the two guys from behind and then shot them one more time after they were on the ground. He did not even stop there and started taking there photos and harassed public and police with his weapon. Injuring and ramming various people and vehicle's on the road many of them being children.



Can you shed light on the source of this information?


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## logic

afriend said:


> Can you shed light on the source of this information?



Multiple public statements of the people involved in the incident and actual live footage shot by multiple civilians can be found at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6vdHhqvJu0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW9oWSNuCB8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjGq1rAhHa0


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## fida jan

Shameel said:


> Tribune Alerts:
> 
> Raymond to Police Investigating Officer:
> 
> IM A TECHNICAL OFFICER AT U.S. CONSULATE: RAYMOND DAVIS
> 
> THERES A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH YOU CAN PRESS ME FOR INFORMATION: DAVIS
> 
> IM NOT GOING TO DISCLOSE WHY I WAS IN MOZANG: RAYMOND DAVIS
> 
> The Express Tribune - Latest Breaking Pakistan News, Business, Life, Style, Cricket, Videos, Comments
> 
> Interesting:
> 
> Lahore shootings: As the case unfolds, the mystery deepens &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> "A new angle to the incident, submitted in a statement by Davis himself, has it that the vehicle he was driving had had a minor collision with a Rickshaw a little before the incident. Therefore, if not a robbery, the two men could have chased the vehicle to argue with the driver."



the more he conceals the more his case is in trouble..


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## LeGenD

logic said:


> To set the record straight
> NOT a single person has laid a finger on this guy.
> He has shot dead two innocent civilians.
> He then went on a rampage and is guilt of every traffic violation that we have a law for in Pakistan.
> He was so scared that he shot the two guys from behind and then shot them one more time after they were on the ground. He did not even stop there and started taking there photos and harassed public and police with his weapon. Injuring and ramming various people and vehicle's on the road many of them being children.


You do not need to explain to me about what happened in this case. I can read and analyze too.

People did not get the chance to lay their fingers on him. And timely action of police also helped. Otherwise, situation could have been worse.

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## JonAsad

Ahmad said:


> if he is diplomat why is it so difficult for everybody to confirm.



If he was a diplomat, it can be easily verified. No question asked. Diplomatic Immunity.
Prob is he is not a US diplomat, refer to rescue rangers post no 561.

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## logic

LeGenD said:


> You do not need to explain to me about what happened in this case. I can read and analyze too.



GOOD 4 U



> People did not get the chance to lay their fingers on him. And timely action of police also helped. Otherwise, situation could have been worse.



THE BLOODY POLICE WERE WATCHING TAMASHA


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## Durrak

logic said:


> Multiple public statements of the people involved in the incident and actual live footage shot by multiple civilians can be found at



Sir so many people were there so its obvious statements are different
Jitne log utni baatain


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## Shameel

Dunya News proves Raymond Allen Davis is not a diplomat. Shows letter from US Embassy informing Pakistan's Foreign Office he is a member of the Embassy's "administrative and technical staff" and requesting issuance of non-diplomatic ID Card. 

Watch Dunya News.

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## fatman17

American Eagle said:


> None of you who disagree with my remarks know anything more or less factually than I do.
> 
> Who among you was there? Who believes what they read in any newspaper?
> 
> Here is a more truthful headline:
> 
> *Brave US Diplomat Fights Back Killing Terrorist Attackers in Lahore, Seat of Much Terrorist Violence in Recent Years*



didnt comment on your first post but your comments are typical of the 'ugly american' - i thought u were smarter than this!

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## LeGenD

logic said:


> GOOD 4 U


My response was aimed towards some illogical claims.



logic said:


> THE BLOODY POLICE WERE WATCHING TAMASHA


Police apprehendid him. Not our awaam.


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## American Eagle

fatman17 said:


> didnt comment on your first post but your comments are typical of the 'ugly american' - i thought u were smarter than this!



The only "facts" of record are photos of Mr. Davis's auto shot up windshield with the bullets having passed through the car and blowing out his rear window of the car as well.

Both attackers were armed, per police statements to date, and Mr. Davis got out of the car to defenend himself/return fire, per the police statements.

No one worldwide gives credence to johnny come lately curbstone, conflicting statements so called "witnesses"...all you have to do is read through this long Thread to find numerous contradictory statements on the same points...no facts whatsoever other than an American was attacked and defended himself.

"Smart" is knowing to wait until the hard facts are documented, not being caught up in a negative pop culture bunch of jibberish.

Some really absurd conspiracy theories here.

Fact is Pakistan and NATO which includes the US...Paksitan is a NATO Affiliate, formally, fyi, are at war with terrorism and the terrorists. The terrorists are themselves Pakistanis, too, radical Muslims killing fellow peaceful Muslims.

Fact is the day before this event a terrorist suicide bomber killed several and wounded many more right there in Lahore. Lahore is a hot bed of terrorist violence for some time now with folks in Canada and Europe "making it up as they go" which only further damages the reputation and image of the nation of Pakistan.

It is shameful to have so few condoling the terrorist suicide bombing the day before and then have all this childish hue and cry blaming one American for defending himself in a time and place of runaway lawlessness and radicalism which has to be put down by the local people or it will conclude with absolute anarchy which this site is reflecting as it goes on by the "pop culture" wild eyed untrue and wildly made up inputs of non-fact and wild allegations and conspiracy theories.

Of course the fact that many are overseas says many writing on here are not loyal to Pakistan or they would be at home, in uniform, helping fight terrorism, or teaching free public schools for the poorer children, or practicing medicine in the less developed and inner city areas of greatest needs.


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## ashok321

> The terrorists are themselves Pakistanis, too, radical Muslims killing fellow peaceful Muslims.



Agreed bro, above is the stark fact.


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## DV RULES

This American person has to be sentenced & hanged immediately,

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## VelocuR

^^Can't we ignore him ? It is NONE of his business..... 

American terrorist is in our hand.  If another American sneaking in Pakistan, we will surely catch them and bring to Justice. 



*
Pakistani court convicts 5 American terrorists to 10 years in jail*


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## MM_Haider

guys dont waste your precious time here.. America will take his person back, whatever the circumstances be. Actually the memory of Pakistani people is very short.. does somebody remember the day when US marines/ CIA agents raided hotel Shalamar on choppers and took the alleged murderer of their journalist!!!! 

So today they have announced that he was diplomat with immunity as per Vienna Convention .. remember beggars can't be choosers


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## DV RULES

Self deleted


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## pakdefender

watch from 3:07 onwards
YouTube - Exclusive Footage of American shooter in Lahore Incident

watch from 0:08 onwards
YouTube - American kills 2 Pakistanis in Lahore

































There are hundredes of witnesses to his crimes , he should not be allowed to get away with murder in broad daylight.

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## American Eagle

US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan | World news | The Guardian

See above website for this same exact article with photo of American&#8217;s shot up car as evidence of attack on him.

US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan

Third man killed by embassy vehicle (driven by a Pakistani national) rushing to the aid of American official, who was named by local media as Raymond Davis

&#8226;	Declan Walsh in Islamabad 
&#8226;	guardian.co.uk, Thursday 27 January 2011 16.25 GMT 
&#8226;	Article history

SEE ABOVE INTERNET SITE FOR ACTUAL PHOTO. PHOTOS BEING CIRCULATED ALLEDING TO BE THE CAR OF MR. DAVIS ARE OF A WHITE CAR WITH A DAMAGED REAR BUMPER. NOTE THAT MR. DAVIS WHITE CAR DOES NOT HAVE A DAMAGED REAR BUMPER. THESE ARE THE SORTS OF TRICKS AND GAMES BEING USED TO ENGINEER FALSE IMPRESSIONS ON THIS SITE CURRENTLY.

The car a US consulate employee was travelling in when he was engaged in a shoot-out in Lahore. Illustration: Mohsin Raza/Reuters

A US government official shot dead two Pakistanis during an apparent attempted robbery on a Lahore street this afternoon. A third man died after being run over by an embassy vehicle rushing to the scene.

Local police took the American, named by local media as Raymond Davis, into custody.

The US embassy confirmed he was an employee but did not specify his job or say why he was carrying a weapon. Pakistani television stations speculated he was a CIA agent.

Crowds of protesters burned tyres on the site of the shooting as the Punjab chief minister, Shahbaz Sharif, ordered an immediate inquiry into the incident.
"The American told us that he opened fire in self-defence after one of the men pulled out a pistol," the Lahore police chief, Aslam Tarin, told Reuters.

The shooting incident could inflame tensions in a country where anti-Americanism is rife and speculation abounds about the malign intentions of US covert officials.

Witnesses said that two men riding a motorbike, one carrying a gun, approached the American's car on a busy street. The American drew his firearm and shot both of them.

The American called for help from a sports utility vehicle that either rushed from the nearby consulate or was following close behind, according to different versions. On the way the jeep knocked over a pedestrian who later died in hospital.

The brother of the dead pedestrian told reporters that the driver of the car should be tried for murder. "We will not take the body of my brother until the foreigner is punished. We will file a case against him so he is hanged," he said.

Television stations showed footage of Davis &#8211; a white American in his 40s with grey hair and a plaid shirt &#8211; emerging from his white car, which had several bullet holes in the windscreen.

The identities or motives of the dead gunmen were not clear. Police officials said the American was the victim of an attempted robbery but presented no evidence to back up the statement.

Street robberies are not uncommon in Lahore, although the city is less risky than Karachi and attacks on foreigners are rare.

Pakistan is considered one of the riskiest posts for American officials, who are posted at the Islamabad embassy and consulates in Karachi, Lahore and Peshawar.

A suicide bomber killed an official working for the National Security Agency outside the Karachi consulate in 2006. Gunmen in Peshawar killed an American aid official in 2008, and later that year opened fire on a vehicle carrying the consul general, who escaped unscathed. Three US special forces officers were killed in a Taliban bomb attack in Khyber Paktunkhwa province last year.

Diplomats do not generally have permission to carry weapons although some are escorted by armed bodyguards. Security rules vary from city to city, with Lahore considered perhaps the least risky despite the threat from Punjabi militant groups. The day before Mr. Davis was attacked a suicide terrorist bomber killed several Pakitanis and wounded many more in Lahore, so that the level of violence of late is rising there. (This note inserted by American Eagle for factual emphais).

US spies posted to Pakistan also contend with a hostile public that holds them responsible for many of the country's ills. Last month, the CIA station chief in Islamabad, named as Jonathan Banks, had to flee Pakistan after a tribesman named him in a criminal prosecution related to CIA drone strikes in Waziristan.


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## fida jan

American Eagle is officially black listed now in PDF.......


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## American Eagle

US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan | World news | The Guardian

See above website for this same exact article with photo of American&#8217;s shot up car as evidence of attack on him.

US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan

Third man killed by embassy vehicle (driven by a Pakistani national) rushing to the aid of American official, who was named by local media as Raymond Davis

&#8226;	Declan Walsh in Islamabad 
&#8226;	guardian.co.uk, Thursday 27 January 2011 16.25 GMT 
&#8226;	Article history

SEE ABOVE INTERNET SITE FOR ACTUAL PHOTO. PHOTOS BEING CIRCULATED ALLEDING TO BE THE CAR OF MR. DAVIS ARE OF A WHITE CAR WITH A DAMAGED REAR BUMPER. NOTE THAT MR. DAVIS WHITE CAR DOES NOT HAVE A DAMAGED REAR BUMPER. THESE ARE THE SORTS OF TRICKS AND GAMES BEING USED TO ENGINEER FALSE IMPRESSIONS ON THIS SITE CURRENTLY.

The car a US consulate employee was travelling in when he was engaged in a shoot-out in Lahore. Illustration: Mohsin Raza/Reuters

A US government official shot dead two Pakistanis during an apparent attempted robbery on a Lahore street this afternoon. A third man died after being run over by an embassy vehicle rushing to the scene.
Local police took the American, named by local media as Raymond Davis, into custody.

The US embassy confirmed he was an employee but did not specify his job or say why he was carrying a weapon. Pakistani television stations speculated he was a CIA agent.

Crowds of protesters burned tyres on the site of the shooting as the Punjab chief minister, Shahbaz Sharif, ordered an immediate inquiry into the incident.
"The American told us that he opened fire in self-defence after one of the men pulled out a pistol," the Lahore police chief, Aslam Tarin, told Reuters.

The shooting incident could inflame tensions in a country where anti-Americanism is rife and speculation abounds about the malign intentions of US covert officials.

Witnesses said that two men riding a motorbike, one carrying a gun, approached the American's car on a busy street. The American drew his firearm and shot both of them.

The American called for help from a sports utility vehicle that either rushed from the nearby consulate or was following close behind, according to different versions. On the way the jeep knocked over a pedestrian who later died in hospital.

The brother of the dead pedestrian told reporters that the driver of the car should be tried for murder. "We will not take the body of my brother until the foreigner is punished. We will file a case against him so he is hanged," he said.

Television stations showed footage of Davis &#8211; a white American in his 40s with grey hair and a plaid shirt &#8211; emerging from his white car, which had several bullet holes in the windscreen.

The identities or motives of the dead gunmen were not clear. Police officials said the American was the victim of an attempted robbery but presented no evidence to back up the statement.

Street robberies are not uncommon in Lahore, although the city is less risky than Karachi and attacks on foreigners are rare.

Pakistan is considered one of the riskiest posts for American officials, who are posted at the Islamabad embassy and consulates in Karachi, Lahore and Peshawar.

A suicide bomber killed an official working for the National Security Agency outside the Karachi consulate in 2006. Gunmen in Peshawar killed an American aid official in 2008, and later that year opened fire on a vehicle carrying the consul general, who escaped unscathed. Three US special forces officers were killed in a Taliban bomb attack in Khyber Paktunkhwa province last year.

Diplomats do not generally have permission to carry weapons although some are escorted by armed bodyguards. Security rules vary from city to city, with Lahore considered perhaps the least risky despite the threat from Punjabi militant groups.

US spies posted to Pakistan also contend with a hostile public that holds them responsible for many of the country's ills. Last month, the CIA station chief in Islamabad, named as Jonathan Banks, had to flee Pakistan after a tribesman named him in a criminal prosecution related to CIA drone strikes in Waziristan.

FOOTNOTE BY AMERICAN EAGLE: The day before the American was attacked in Lahore a terrorist suicide bomber murdered several fellow innocent Muslims and wounded many more Pakistani men, women, and children. During 2010 a terrorist suicide bomber attacked a police station in Lahore where a class of new policement were about to graduate, killing several and wounding many more. Lahore's record of current tense violence is growing, an unhappy fact. ***I visited Lahore several times during my tour of duty in then West Paksitan and at that time it was a very historic and welcoming city. In my living room here in the USA are a series of matted and frame etchings from the Raj era, including one of the famous "Gate" in Lahore which now demarks the boundary line between Pakistan and India. Fierce fighting took place in the vicinity of Lahore in the 1965 India-Paksitan War while I was still living and working in Pakistan, in Karachi and Peshawar primarily, but with side trips to places like Lahore, Rawalpindi. Islamabad was not yet built as the future now actual capitol. American Eagle.


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## pakdefender

What a joke this guy is. The picture of the car in his link is the same as the one in the videos and the screen grabs from the videos 

this 'american eagle' has now been proven to be making up false claims, the rear windscreen was fully intact AFTER this scum had committed the murders, it was intact even when the traffic warden tried to stop him, it was intact till he ploughed through the crowd, it was probably broken by people on the next traffic jam who were by that time enraged by his antics.


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## pakdefender

American Eagle said:


> US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan | World news | The Guardian
> 
> See above website for this same exact article with photo of Americans shot up car as evidence of attack on him.
> 
> US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan
> 
> Third man killed by embassy vehicle (driven by a Pakistani national) rushing to the aid of American official, who was named by local media as Raymond Davis
> 
> 	Declan Walsh in Islamabad
> 	guardian.co.uk, Thursday 27 January 2011 16.25 GMT
> 	Article history
> 
> SEE ABOVE INTERNET SITE FOR ACTUAL PHOTO. PHOTOS BEING CIRCULATED ALLEDING TO BE THE CAR OF MR. DAVIS ARE OF A WHITE CAR WITH A DAMAGED REAR BUMPER. NOTE THAT MR. DAVIS WHITE CAR DOES NOT HAVE A DAMAGED REAR BUMPER. THESE ARE THE SORTS OF TRICKS AND GAMES BEING USED TO ENGINEER FALSE IMPRESSIONS ON THIS SITE CURRENTLY.
> 
> The car a US consulate employee was travelling in when he was engaged in a shoot-out in Lahore. Illustration: Mohsin Raza/Reuters
> 
> A US government official shot dead two Pakistanis during an apparent attempted robbery on a Lahore street this afternoon. A third man died after being run over by an embassy vehicle rushing to the scene.
> Local police took the American, named by local media as Raymond Davis, into custody.
> 
> The US embassy confirmed he was an employee but did not specify his job or say why he was carrying a weapon. Pakistani television stations speculated he was a CIA agent.
> 
> Crowds of protesters burned tyres on the site of the shooting as the Punjab chief minister, Shahbaz Sharif, ordered an immediate inquiry into the incident.
> "The American told
> us that he opened fire in self-defence after one of the men pulled out a pistol," the Lahore police chief, Aslam Tarin, told Reuters.
> 
> The shooting incident could inflame tensions in a country where anti-Americanism is rife and speculation abounds about the malign intentions of US covert officials.
> 
> Witnesses said that two men riding a motorbike, one carrying a gun, approached the American's car on a busy street. The American drew his firearm and shot both of them.
> 
> The American called for help from a sports utility vehicle that either rushed from the nearby consulate or was following close behind, according to different versions. On the way the jeep knocked over a pedestrian who later died in hospital.
> 
> The brother of the dead pedestrian told reporters that the driver of the car should be tried for murder. "We will not take the body of my brother until the foreigner is punished. We will file a case against him so he is hanged," he said.
> 
> Television stations showed footage of Davis  a white American in his 40s with grey hair and a plaid shirt  emerging from his white car, which had several bullet holes in the windscreen.
> 
> The identities or motives of the dead gunmen were not clear. Police officials said the American was the victim of an attempted robbery but presented no evidence to back up the statement.
> 
> Street robberies are not uncommon in Lahore, although the city is less risky than Karachi and attacks on foreigners are rare.
> 
> Pakistan is considered one of the riskiest posts for American officials, who are posted at the Islamabad embassy and consulates in Karachi, Lahore and Peshawar.
> 
> A suicide bomber killed an official working for the National Security Agency outside the Karachi consulate in 2006. Gunmen in Peshawar killed an American aid official in 2008, and later that year opened fire on a vehicle carrying the consul general, who escaped unscathed. Three US special forces officers were killed in a Taliban bomb attack in Khyber Paktunkhwa province last year.
> 
> Diplomats do not generally have permission to carry weapons although some are escorted by armed bodyguards. Security rules vary from city to city, with Lahore considered perhaps the least risky despite the threat from Punjabi militant groups.
> 
> US spies posted to Pakistan also contend with a hostile public that holds them responsible for many of the country's ills. Last month, the CIA station chief in Islamabad, named as Jonathan Banks, had to flee Pakistan after a tribesman named him in a criminal prosecution related to CIA drone strikes in Waziristan.



just shut your trap , you are not making any sense

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## MZUBAIR

Mr 10% is the only hope for USA


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## American Eagle

pakdefender said:


> just shut your trap , you are not making any sense



So you don't like the front page story with photo from the London liberal GUARDIAN newspaper, headline reading:

US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan

Too bad. Freedom of expression and all that!


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## aks18

hang this american mofo

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## JonAsad

pakdefender said:


> watch from 3:07 onwards
> YouTube - Exclusive Footage of American shooter in Lahore Incident
> 
> watch from 0:08 onwards
> YouTube - American kills 2 Pakistanis in Lahore
> 
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> 
> There are hundredes of witnesses to his crimes , he should not be allowed to get away with murder in broad daylight.




thanks mate, thats the video i was referring to earlier in my previous post,
thanks for finding it.

*And i can bet 10000 dollars, that Mr Military Professional American Eagle with his eagle eyes can still see the rear windscreen broken, because the bullet went through the front windscreen and came out from the rear shattering it. That deserves a facepalm.
*

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## pakdefender

One thing is very clear , that there will be no 'victory' in this war as Bush & Co laid the foundation of war being out sourced to 'geniuses' like Eric Prince ( Blackwater ) , Ray davis ( Hyperion Protective Consultants ) and other web browsing ex-military personal ( perhaps Mr. American eagle here also is in on this enterprise ).

There will be a lot of dead people to go by but there will be no victory no mission accomplished, perhaps that was the intent all along?

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> So you don't like the front page story with photo from the London liberal GUARDIAN newspaper, headline reading:
> 
> US embassy official kills two men during 'robbery' in Pakistan
> 
> Too bad. Freedom of expression and all that!


You can't really tell they are different cars from THAT picture.

Earlier in the video, they showed a much better angle of the car.

Although all of that is irrelevant to anything meaningful, but if you were trying to discredit the Pakistani media - which by any intelligent observer's standards over the past 10 years is quite free from government meddling, in fact a lot of self-censorship guidelines of the west are not followed in Pakistan - then your justification of your allegation falls short.

The Pakistani media is doing exactly what the US media would do. Follow leads, speculate and in the end present evidence as and when it digs it up. Officials are trying to release as little as possible, so they hold responsibility as well for making the press jump through hoops.

Anyway, I fail to understand how you become the champion of the free press by constantly asking us all to shut up and not talk about it... Be brave man, if your guy is innocent then there won't be any evidence against him, he'll walk. He has diplomatic immunity anyway, he will walk, eventually. But normally diplomatic immunity is against sentencing, but not prosecution and so his crime can be investigated and he CAN be found guilty, his punishment would then be left up to the good people in America.

So chill, even if he's guilty, you'll have the option to be his executioner or not.

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## American Eagle

Glorious Resolve said:


> thanks mate, thats the video i was referring to earlier in my previous post,
> thanks for finding it.
> 
> *And i can bet 10000 dollars, that Mr Military Professional American Eagle with his eagle eyes can still see the rear windscreen broken, because the bullet went through the front windscreen and came out from the rear shattering it. That deserves a facepalm.
> *



What I see are 6 white cars in one picture which proves nothing. Another white car in another picture is in a low traffic, opposite flow of traffic setting, again proving nothing. White cars abound everywhere. The official picture is the one of the American's car with windshield shot up and back window of the same car shot out as bullets shot into windshield existed rear window of car.

Photos of bullet holes in windshiled, as noted a day ago by me here, are indentended, ie, shot into, not from inside, the car. Some times I do wonder where people learned their physics and visual accumen?

How is the weather in Moscow, snowing false statements and fake photos there is it?

Sad commentary still showing modern day younger Pakistanis on this site who would rather not wait for the facts to be delt with formally but a rush to judgement, a non-democratic "hang the alleged, who is in fact the victum" and such. What a shame, as this is a real set back for the credibility and objectivity the rest of the world has hoped to find in Pakistan.

Of course much of this discourse comes from Russia and Canada, pretty far removed from the scene of Lahore.


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## VCheng

What I will find ironic is that all this hoopla will die down all of sudden just as it began, with the real outcome unchanged at all. *We all know what will happen.*


Thus, I am saving my keystrokes..........


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## Spring Onion

Asim saner elements can judge the level of our stamina and tolerance to hear American bakwas about our country, faith, army, and nukes for long and specially for the last 9 years and then compare it with this one incident and the facepalms, and anger of this American retired army official here.

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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> What I will find ironic is that all this hoopla will die down all of sudden just as it began, with the real outcome unchanged at all. *We all know what will happen.*
> 
> 
> Thus, I am saving my keystrokes..........



Sir we all know what will happen. the killer will be freed.

But can that change the fact that 3 people were killed by Americans unlawfully ??

even if they were "robbers" havent we seen in west they apologised for injuring the robber ?

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## Aslan

Jana said:


> Sir we all know what will happen. the killer will be freed.
> 
> But can that change the fact that 3 people were killed by Americans unlawfully ??
> 
> even if they were "robbers" havent we seen in west they apologised for injuring the robber ?



Jana sister I remember I was once talking about this very issue with a professor of mine who happened to be a Lawyer herself, and she told me about a case that had happened in California where a house owner had shot a thief who was running from his house with stuff he had just stolen after breaking in unlawfully. Guess what the owner shots the thief and the thief falls by the stroke of luck outside his property. Now how far is that, the thief not only survived but went on to sue to owner as a legal lope hole allowed him to, due to the fact that he was technically not shot on the property which he was able to proof as he had fallen outside. The judge even though knew the thief was on the wrong alloted him a hefty amount, and the house owner ended up losing for defending his turf. 

Such are the laws in US its self, and then some enlightened ignorant wants to lecture us about our country.


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## American Eagle

Jana said:


> Sir we all know what will happen. the killer will be freed.
> 
> But can that change the fact that 3 people were killed by Americans unlawfully ??
> 
> even if they were "robbers" havent we seen in west they apologised for injuring the robber ?



There you go again.

1. Third Pakistani who died as a result of a traffic accident, not murdered, was hit by a US Consular vehicle driven by a Pakistani national, an employee of the US Consulate. This is all over the news but by your continued use of false info you continue to have zero credibility.

2. Perhaps more mature Pakistanis understand that the terrorists inside Paksitan are getting their cash flow, the money to pay for their beans and bullets, by "robberies." Mr. Davis had just drawn out a large sum of money from a local bank and was the object of a terrorist fund raising robbery.

3. The two robbers/terrorist supporters were already being sought out by the police for involvement with other recent robberies. The fact that another member of their family was killed recently in an unrelated apparent shoot out raises questions about all these same family youth being involved in tough, rough, criminal activites.


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## Shameel

Ok, American Eagle is officially blind and in denial mode regarding the rear windshield. He's rejecting visual evidence in the form of videos and pictures. Not wasting my time with him anymore.

And just because the Guardian newspaper says they were robbers doesn't make them robbers. Don't quote Western media here as gospel truth. Nobody tells lies the way the Western media does.

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## Imran Khan

ayeee kash koi ahmdi nijad yahaan bhi hota. per hamary pass sirf khusry hai. itna sasta ho gya mera pakistan .


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## Aslan

Shameel said:


> Ok, American Eagle is officially blind and in denial mode regarding the rear windshield. He's rejecting visual evidence in the form of videos and pictures. Not wasting my time with him anymore.
> 
> And just because the Guardian newspaper says they were robbers doesn't make them robbers. Don't quote Western media here as gospel truth. Nobody tells lies the way the Western media does.



Actually he knows that Angelina Joline had trained the shooters and they were able to curve the bullets like the movie wanted.


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## Imran Khan

American Eagle sir why you working hard to proove it . we have popet gov. and they will free him even he kill 303 innocents dont you worry we are not sovrent state .

















for pakistani

yehi injaam hai bhikariyoon ka .or mango

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## American Eagle

*US calls for immediate release of diplomat in Pakistan*

US calls for immediate release of diplomat in PakistanAFP (5 hours ago) 

Today&#8220;When detained, the US diplomat repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.&#8221; &#8212; AP Photo (see photo by going on the Internet to the Jan. 29 Karachi DAWN story found at:

http://www.dawn.com/



ISLAMABAD: The United States on Saturday called for the immediate release of a US diplomat it said was unlawfully detained by Pakistani authorities in Lahore, its embassy in Islamabad said.

The man, previously described just as a consulate employee, is being held in police custody over Thursday&#8217;s shooting that resulted in the deaths of two men he said he killed in self-defence.

&#8220;When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,&#8221; the embassy said in a statement.

It added, &#8220;Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status with either the US consulate general in Lahore or the US embassy in Islamabad&#8221;.

&#8220;Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory.&#8221;

The man, named as Raymond Davis and described by the US State Department as an American civilian working for the US consulate in Lahore, was held at a police station on double murder charges over the deaths of two motorcyclists.

A third Pakistani was crushed to death by a consulate car that went to help Davis following the shooting in a busy street in the eastern city on Thursday.

*



&#8220;The diplomat, assigned to the US embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012,&#8221; the statement said.

Click to expand...

*
Recalling the events that led to Davis&#8217;s arrest, it said the diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles.

*&#8220;The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area.&#8221;*

The embassy expressed regret that &#8220;this incident resulted in loss of life&#8221; and said it was &#8220;committed to working closely with the Pakistani government to secure the immediate release of the diplomat, as required under Pakistani and international law&#8221;.

Meanwhile, the US consulate on Saturday denied immediate access to the car and its driver who overran and killed Pakistani citizen Abdul Rehman on Qartaba chowk during the shooting incident.

According to sources, Lahore Police tried to access the driver and other people who were sitting in the car at the time of the incident by writing a letter to the US Consulate. However, the consulate denied the authorities immediate access.

A day earlier, provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah told the media that access would be given to the car and the people who were seated in it by Friday evening.

Moreover, Barrister Javed Iqbal requested Chief Justice Lahore High Court Ejaz Chaudhry in a letter to stop the US official from leaving the country.

A court on Friday handed over Davis to the police on a six day physical remand.

*



The incident sparked several small protests across the country on Friday, a sign of the anti-American sentiment that is already running high partly because of a covert US drone campaign in the northwest tribal areas that has provoked deadly revenge attacks by militants.

Click to expand...

*


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## Imran Khan

i am wondering how many US diplomats we have . its 100th time when any American make such things he become diplomat next day.


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## MST

Looks like the guy is going to walk away free (if his diplomatic status is upheld).
Below article from BBC.

*Lahore deaths accused 'is diplomat, must be freed' - US*

*The US embassy in Pakistan has called for "the immediate release" of an American charged with murdering two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore.*

The embassy said the man had US diplomatic status and therefore was immune from prosecution."The diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles" on 27 January, it added.

The man - identified in Pakistan as Raymond Davis - was charged with the murder of the two man on Friday. He told the court in Lahore that he had fired his gun in self-defence. Another person was run over and killed by a vehicle carrying Mr Davis' colleagues as they came to his aid, police and witnesses have said.

Magistrates have remanded Mr Davis in custody until next week, while police investigate the shooting.

*Police 'failure'*
"The United States Embassy in Pakistan calls for the immediate release of a US diplomat unlawfully detained by authorities in Lahore," the embassy said in a statement on Saturday. "The diplomat, assigned to the US Embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012. 

"When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status.

*The embassy added that it regretted "that this incident resulted in loss of life".*

It did not name the man, who had been previously described as a consular employee in Lahore.

Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen told the BBC Mr Davis was employed on "security duties" in the consulate. He did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms, according to the Pakistani authorities. Mr Tareen said a Glock pistol had been recovered from Mr Davis and that pistols had also been found on the two men shot dead.
Mr Davis is said to have told police that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint.
Police said he told officers that he had withdrawn money from a cash machine shortly before the incident.

*Pakistani investigators have said the two men were probably robbers, although relatives dispute this.
*

More than 100 people held a protest rally in Lahore in the aftermath of Thursday's incident, setting tyres ablaze. The incident could inflame anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Karachi says.
Many Pakistanis resent the US because of regular air strikes carried out by its drone aircraft in north-west Pakistan, and because of America's role in neighbouring Afghanistan, our correspondent adds.


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## Awesome

Imran Khan said:


> i am wondering how many US diplomats we have . its 100th time when any American make such things he become diplomat next day.


I remember the government gave them permission to build the largest American Embassy on foreign soil.

So they have a lot of people and probably on rotation.


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## American Eagle

THE KARACHI DAWN is hardly a Western newspaper. 

Folks primarily outside of Pakistan rushing to judgement seem to be up against known robbers whose crimes included earlier the same day robbing a native Pakistani.

Shells and peas over various, different,not the same, white cars.

Violation of diplomatic immunity and international treaties.

Pakistan has many needs but does not need as my outsiders view from across the pond, I never hide that I an American over here not now over there, any more rash, false coverups for terrorist robbery fund raisers who got shot in the process.

Speaking for myself only I am fully aware that the murder of the Governor of the Punjab was another act of terrorism wherein the innocent and good Pakistani Governor was slandered, after his murder, by terrorists as having been a "blasphemer." Spare me such garbage and join me in praying for the soul of the murdered Pakistani Governor.



> *Salman Taseer Governor Punjab, shot dead in Kohsar Market in F-6 Islamabad, when an Elite Force personnel opened fire at his car according to the media reports. Governor received bullets in his chest and police van shifted him to Islamabad Poly Clinic hospital where he gives way to his injuries.*


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## Awesome

> "When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status.



Haha I wonder how that must've gone down with the Pakistani police? 

We probably can't sentence him however I think we can bend the rules a bit to hold him for a while till investigators do their work. It's no big deal.


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## Imran Khan

Asim Aquil said:


> I remember the government gave them permission to build the largest American Embassy on foreign soil.
> 
> So they have a lot of people and probably on rotation.



but they should send diplomats not James Bounds which misbehave kill and insult local daily


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## Haseebullah

nescafe said:


> those bike guys could have been ground intel tailing him. he recognized and shot them. giving a message to the pakistani intelligence / goverment , that beggars cannot be choosers.



Oh you are mistaken!Pakistani I tails can never be spotted,believe me..!


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## Spring Onion

Asim Aquil said:


> Haha I wonder how that must've gone down with the Pakistani police?
> 
> We probably can't sentence him however I think we can bend the rules a bit to hold him for a while till investigators do their work. It's no big deal.



The govt told US of A that they should wait for the outcome of the investigation.

Center said it will accept the investigation by Punjab govt.


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## Shameel

Can someone here please post the video and screen capture of the US Embassy letter dated 20 January 2010, which was shown by Dunya News today?

This letter proves that the US Embassy in Islamabad is conjuring up a "c ock and bull" story about Raymond Allen Davis being a diplomat as an "afterthought" when they themselves informed the Foreign Office a year ago that he was "Administrative and Technical staff" and requested the Foreign Office for the issuance to him of a "NON-DIPLOMATIC ID" card.


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## Awesome

Behold Mozang Chungi. I wonder when was the last time I saw a foreigner casually roaming about here...

It would've been different if this happened on MM Alam road. Nobody in Pakistan withdraws money from ATMs without looking over their shoulder and making sure they can get away easily.

People use ATMs to withdraw small sums of money (in Pakistan). I'm sure the Americans would be a lot more careful since people would figure they have a lot more money to withdraw.

Many things that don't add up. The case should definitely be investigated.


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## American Eagle

Asim Aquil said:


> I remember the government gave them permission to build the largest American Embassy on foreign soil.
> 
> So they have a lot of people and probably on rotation.



International law teaches us all that all embassies of all nations built in other nations...the land thereon where the various embassies are built becomes the absolutely native soil of the nation whose embassy is built thereon.

In Washington, where a former US Department of Veterans Affairs beautiful hospital used to stand, overlooking Georgetown and the Potomoc River, the US Dept. of State got the Veterans Administration to declare the hospital as "surplus property" in order for the US to give, as in donate, the beautiful hill top land site to the USSR to build a new Russian Embassy on it. It was thereafter Russian, not US, soil, under the Russian Embassy.

Just to edify.


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## Shameel

Before Raymond Allen Davis is released, the Punjab Police should send him for "drying room ki sair".


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> International law teaches us all that all embassies of all nations built in other nations...the land thereon where the various embassies are built becomes the absolutely native soil of the nation whose embassy is built thereon.
> 
> In Washington, where a former US Department of Veterans Affairs beautiful hospital used to stand, overlooking Georgetown and the Potomoc River, the US Dept. of State got the Veterans Administration to declare the hospital as "surplus property" in order for the US to give, as in donate, the beautiful hill top land site to the USSR to build a new Russian Embassy on it. It was thereafter Russian, not US, soil, under the Russian Embassy.
> 
> Just to edify.


International laws, oh we'll be really sorry about it if we break em... If any link can be found that he was funding the terrorists and not being robbed by them, then it should be investigated.

It's just 8 days of judicial remand, I don't see the UN General Assembly being moved on these 8 days of us bending the rules.


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## Imran Khan

Shameel said:


> Before Raymond Allen Davis is released, the Punjab Police should send him for "drying room ki sair".



wo American hai pakistan ka sufeed posh nhi


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> Sir we all know what will happen. the killer will be freed.
> 
> But can that change the fact that 3 people were killed by Americans unlawfully ??
> 
> even if they were "robbers" havent we seen in west they apologised for injuring the robber ?



JanaJi: I join you in expressing regret for the loss of life, but will say that the final determination of the legality of the situation is yet to be made, given that the investigation is not yet complete.

What is clear is the anger and frustration of the general population that has been brought out by this incident against USA.

I understand and appreciate those causes too, but will point out that quite a lot of the blame lies fairly and squarely on the Pakistani government and military, and the so-called elite, for selling out their own country and countrymen, not the foreign puppet masters.

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## Shameel

Asim Aquil said:


> Behold Mozang Chungi. I wonder when was the last time I saw a foreigner casually roaming about here...
> 
> It would've been different if this happened on MM Alam road. Nobody in Pakistan withdraws money from ATMs without looking over their shoulder and making sure they can get away easily.
> 
> People use ATMs to withdraw small sums of money (in Pakistan). I'm sure the Americans would be a lot more careful since people would figure they have a lot more money to withdraw.
> 
> Many things that don't add up. The case should definitely be investigated.



LOL! WTH was he doing withdrawing money from an ATM in Mozang? Go to The Mall, Gulberg, Model Town, Defence. Mozang of all places. This is like a white guy withdrawing cash from an ATM at midnight in The Bronx.

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## Awesome

Shameel said:


> LOL! WTH was he doing withdrawing money from an ATM in Mozang? Go to The Mall, Gulberg, Model Town, Defence. Mozang of all places. This is like a white guy withdrawing cash from an ATM at midnight in The Bronx.


Even I don't go to ATMs any more, I prefer going to the bank and withdrawing, my car parked outside, and me taking off as soon as I get the cash.


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## Shameel

Imran Khan said:


> wo American hai pakistan ka sufeed posh nhi



Khuwab dekhne mai kya harj hai.

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan says law must take its course in U.S. diplomat case*
 1 hr 22 mins ago
ISLAMABAD (Reuters)  Pakistan on Saturday said its legal process should be respected after the U.S. embassy called for the immediate release of an American diplomat who was arrested after he killed two Pakistanis this week.
The American, identified by Pakistani police as Raymond Davis, told a court on Friday he had acted in self-defense after fleeing what he said was a robbery attempt in the eastern city of Lahore on Thursday.
Davis has been remanded in police custody for six days for questioning.
"This matter is sub judice in a court of law and the legal process should be respected," a Pakistani foreign office spokesman said in a statement.
The U.S. embassy said in a statement on Friday only that a staff member of the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore was involved in an incident involving "loss of life."
In a statement on Saturday, the embassy identified him as a U.S. diplomat who it said had been unlawfully detained by authorities in Lahore, where the shooting took place.
It said the diplomat acted in self-defense when confronted by two armed men and had every reason to believe they meant to harm him, and said arresting the diplomat was a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention.
In his initial statement, Davis told police that he was chased by the two men soon after he withdrew money from a cash machine. The men approached him when he pulled over at a traffic signal and they pointed a gun at him.
Davis then fired at the men, a police official said. Armed robberies and carjackings are becoming more common in Pakistan, but Westerners are rarely targeted.
The killings are likely to fuel anger against the United States in the mainly Muslim nation where anti-American sentiment runs high and anger at the U.S.-allied government is also growing due to its perceived ineptitude.
(Reporting by Augustine Anthony, Editing by Michael Georgy and Sonya Hepinstall)

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> JanaJi: I join you in expressing regret for the loss of life, but will say that the final determination of the legality of the situation is yet to be made, given that the investigation is not yet complete.
> 
> What is clear is the anger and frustration of the general population that has been brought out by this incident against USA.
> 
> I understand and appreciate those causes too, but will point out that quite a lot of the blame lies fairly and squarely on the Pakistani government and military, and the so-called elite, for selling out their own country and countrymen, not the foreign puppet masters.


Keep the pressure up... Even if they are lying our officials should go on the record on saying "Not guilty". Many times they just let the case fade away, which is not right.

Once they say not guilty and tomorrow something comes up, they might be held responsible especially if they knowingly ignored any piece of evidence. These things are not so much about hanging the American, but more about setting our own house in order.

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## American Eagle

Asim Aquil said:


> International laws, oh we'll be really sorry about it if we break em... If any link can be found that he was funding the terrorists and not being robbed by them, then it should be investigated.
> 
> It's just 8 days of judicial remand, I don't see the UN General Assembly being moved on these 8 days of us bending the rules.



The two robbers fit the pattern of using robbery, attempted robbery of Mr. Davis, as a means of the two terrorist/robbers raising money for the Taliban and al Qaida.

You may want to read over many inside Pakistan on the Internet newspapers to see where all sorts of robberies, kidnappings for ransome, and such are being used by the Taliban and al Qaida to self fund their terror campaigns against the people, the military, and the Government of Pakistan.

Trying to get mad over two robbers, who just carried out the robbery of an innocent Pakistani shortly, same day, before attempting to rob and shoot Mr. Davis, the American Diplomat, is a sick joke. You are now faced with talking to yourself in a mirrow as the world at large knows better, reading the January 29, 2011 KARACHI DAWN; THE LONDON GUARDIAN; THE NEW YORK TIMES; THE WASHINGTON POST; and other media outlets.

Meanwhile where is the huge volume of sorry and condolences for the innocent native Paksitanis killed by a suicide bomber right there in Lahore the day before the attack on Mr. Davis, with scores more of innocent Paksitanis maimed and wounded for life? The inconsistency of genuine condolences and funeral prayers for the murdered scores of Pakistanis killed by a fellow Pakistani Muslim terrorist suicide bomber murderer is a sad, sad commentary...while jumping to false conclusions for the law and order shooting of two crooks, two robbers, whose robberies as likely as not were being used to help fund terrorism, the Taliban and al Qaida.


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## Imran Khan

Pakistan says law must take its course in U.S. *diplomat *case


lol they accept him as diplomat now forget LAW

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> The two robbers fit the pattern of using robbery, attempted robbery of Mr. Davis, as a means of the two terrorist/robbers raising money for the Taliban and al Qaida.



Actually they fit the pattern of common thieves, my school friend too was a victim of such a crime. They are muggers, dude, not everything can be linked to the AQ / terrorism bogey. This is not 2001 any more 



> You may want to read over many inside Pakistani on the Internet newspapers to see where all sorts of robberies, kidnappings for ransome, and such are being used by the Taliban and al Qaida to self fund their terror campaigns against the people, the military, and the Government of Pakistan.



Yeah like the colonel Imam case, where they kidnapped him took him to FATA and then demanded money. AQ and Taliban are getting sufficient money from charities around the world. They really don't need to do these things on the streets of Lahore - they don't need to do petty theft.



> Trying to get mad over two robbers, who just carried out the robbery of an innocent Pakistani shortly, same day, before attempting to rob and shoot Mr. Davis, the American Diplomat, is a sick joke. You are now faced with talking to yourself in a mirrow as the world at large knows better, reading the January 29, 2011 KARACHI DAWN; THE LONDON GUARDIAN; THE NEW YORK TIMES; THE WASHINGTON POST; and other media outlets.


Btw, its The Dawn. If you're reading the Karachi Dawn, then I don't know which knock off version you're reading and perhaps thats causing you some issues.



> Meanwhile where is the huge volume of sorry and condolences for the innocent native Paksitanis killed by a suicide bomber right there in Lahore the day before the attack on Mr. Davis, with scores more of innocent Paksitanis maimed and wounded for life? The inconsistently of genuine condolences and funeral prayers is a sad, sad commentary...while jumping to false conclusions for the law and order shooting of two crooks, two robbers, whose robberies as likely as not were being used to help fund terrorism, the Taliban and al Qaida.



If you're just repeating the Terrorism mantra thinking that would work, it might just go against Davis... People in Pakistan would be thinking, Ah so he had links with terrorists?

If you believe Davis's story, they were more likely petty criminals, who tried their luck with a white man exiting an ATM booth.


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## Awesome

I'll be blunt, it has been theorized, Americans are using their ex-CIA/Special Forces people / Blackwater / XE types to support terrorism in Pakistan.

Its not proven, its not even believed, but its suspected.

Thus it must be investigated, whether he was really a victim or was making a pay-off and it went bad.

He claims he was followed from the ATM, the ATM cam should have picked it up then. Some CCTV should have picked something up. I'm from Lahore, and Mozang Chungi is not a place I'd expect to see Foreigners casually roaming about.

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## whydowelove

This was in yesterday dawn newspaper;

"_A senior police officer told Dawn that Raymond David was among four people who were detained by security personnel near Lahores Sherpao Bridge on Dec 9, 2009, when they were trying to enter the Cantonment area in a vehicle with tinted glasses. They were armed with sophisticated weapons. The intervention of the US consu late led to their release, the officer recalled.

&#8220;No member of a diplomatic mission in a country is allowed to carry arms.

Only security personnel are permitted to do so and that too after informing the local security authorities in ad vance regarding their movement,&#8221; he said." _

http://epaper.dawn.com/Default.aspx?selpg=2260


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## Awesome

whydowelove said:


> This was in yesterday dawn newspaper;
> 
> "_A senior police officer told Dawn that Raymond David was among four people who were detained by security personnel near Lahores Sherpao Bridge on Dec 9, 2009, when they were trying to enter the Cantonment area in a vehicle with tinted glasses. They were armed with sophisticated weapons. The intervention of the US consu late led to their release, the officer recalled.
> 
> &#8220;No member of a diplomatic mission in a country is allowed to carry arms.
> 
> Only security personnel are permitted to do so and that too after informing the local security authorities in ad vance regarding their movement,&#8221; he said." _
> 
> Dawn ePaper


Yeah I seem to recall that incident... S-2 made a huge issue about how this would prevent his people from doing their job.

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## Imran Khan

whydowelove said:


> This was in yesterday dawn newspaper;
> 
> "_A senior police officer told Dawn that Raymond David was among four people who were detained by security personnel near Lahores Sherpao Bridge on Dec 9, 2009, when they were trying to enter the Cantonment area in a vehicle with tinted glasses. They were armed with sophisticated weapons. The intervention of the US consu late led to their release, the officer recalled.
> 
> No member of a diplomatic mission in a country is allowed to carry arms.
> 
> Only security personnel are permitted to do so and that too after informing the local security authorities in ad vance regarding their movement, he said." _
> 
> Dawn ePaper




now you got it why he fire?????/ yes he is.......? now rehman malik should resign


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## Majnun

US calls for immediate release of diplomat in Pakistan | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



> ISLAMABAD: The United States on Saturday called for the immediate release of a US diplomat it said was unlawfully detained by Pakistani authorities in Lahore, its embassy in Islamabad said.
> 
> The man, previously described just as a consulate employee, is being held in police custody over Thursdays shooting that resulted in the deaths of two men he said he killed in self-defence.
> 
> When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, the embassy said in a statement.
> 
> It added, Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status with either the US consulate general in Lahore or the US embassy in Islamabad.
> 
> Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory.
> 
> The man, named as Raymond Davis and described by the US State Department as an American civilian working for the US consulate in Lahore, was held at a police station on double murder charges over the deaths of two motorcyclists.
> 
> A third Pakistani was crushed to death by a consulate car that went to help Davis following the shooting in a busy street in the eastern city on Thursday.
> 
> The diplomat, assigned to the US embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012, the statement said.
> 
> Recalling the events that led to Daviss arrest, it said the diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles.
> 
> The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area.
> 
> The embassy expressed regret that this incident resulted in loss of life and said it was committed to working closely with the Pakistani government to secure the immediate release of the diplomat, as required under Pakistani and international law.
> 
> Meanwhile, the US consulate on Saturday denied immediate access to the car and its driver who overran and killed Pakistani citizen Abdul Rehman on Qartaba chowk during the shooting incident.
> 
> According to sources, Lahore Police tried to access the driver and other people who were sitting in the car at the time of the incident by writing a letter to the US Consulate. However, the consulate denied the authorities immediate access.
> 
> A day earlier, provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah told the media that access would be given to the car and the people who were seated in it by Friday evening.
> 
> Moreover, Barrister Javed Iqbal requested Chief Justice Lahore High Court Ejaz Chaudhry in a letter to stop the US official from leaving the country.
> 
> A court on Friday handed over Davis to the police on a six day physical remand.
> 
> The incident sparked several small protests across the country on Friday, a sign of the anti-American sentiment that is already running high partly because of a covert US drone campaign in the northwest tribal areas that has provoked deadly revenge attacks by militants.


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## American Eagle

*





whydowelove said:



This was in yesterday dawn newspaper;

"A senior police officer told Dawn that Raymond David 

Click to expand...



Click to expand...

*


> _
> 
> You lost your credibility when you failed to use his correct published name, which is Raymond DAVIS.
> 
> This has been a recent theme seeking to stir up Anti-Semitism on this topic. Mr. Davis is a native of Florida in the USA *
> 
> 
> 
> and is most likely
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *a Protestant, a Christian, to be clear on that point._


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## VelocuR

"for the immediate release of a US diplomat it said was *unlawfully *detained by Pakistani authorities"

what is unlawfully? How twisiting! 

This remind me, extradiction of Viktor Bout_, Russian arm dealer,_ bought to US soil. 

Russia responded immediately on the arrest of Bout: unlawful and illegal !

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## VCheng

Imran Khan said:


> Pakistan says law must take its course in U.S. *diplomat *case
> 
> 
> lol they accept him as diplomat now forget LAW



Please remember that misquotes and mis-statements are rife in Pakistani journalism. 

You do make an important point, but only if the statement is verified to have been correctly reported and is officially sanctioned.


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## deathfromabove

*Lahore Shootings: As The Case Unfolds, The Mystery Deepens​*
ISLAMABAD/LAHORE: As the US diplomatic machinery moved to calm a brewing storm over Thursdays shooting incident in Lahore involving an official attached to its consulate, peculiar details are trickling in regarding the exact identity of the man.

US Ambassador Cameron Munter is learnt to have met Foreign Secretary Salman Basheer, requesting the federal governments intervention in the case of US official Raymond Allen Davis, who gunned down two young motorcyclists near Lahores Qurtaba Chowk in apparent self-defence. The case is currently being handled by the Punjab government, and Davis has been remanded into police custody for six days, according to police officials, by a magistrate.

Munter, according to well-placed sources, is said to have brought up the Geneva Convention, under which diplomats are allowed diplomatic immunity. The provincial government has so far refused to bring the international protocol into play. Other diplomats are also learnt to have tried to contact the Punjab government.

The Foreign Office is learnt to have contacted the Punjab government requesting case details. There has also been a meeting between Chief of Army Staff Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Interior Minister Rehman Malik regarding the matter. Gen. Kayani is said to have advised Malik to handle the matter with extreme care given its sensitive nature. He also advised that, aside from the apparent diplomatic links, Davis military links should also be kept in mind as the case moves forward.

Also discussed was the law and order situation that could arise if Davis is granted immunity.

*Who is Davis?*

Meanwhile, intelligence data shows that Davis has visited Pakistan nine times since 2009.

According to records available with The Express Tribune, Allen Davis, aged 37, visited Pakistan for the first time on October 18, 2009, landing in Islamabad. His last entry into Pakistan was on January 20, 2011, when he landed in Lahores Allama Iqbal International Airport.

Davis travelled using a regular passport, on which he had regular visit visas. There was no diplomatic passport.
Insiders say that Davis was performing duties as a technical advisor serving in the Intelligence and Security Wings of the US Embassy in Islamabad and the consulate in Lahore. He also made frequent visits to Karachi and Peshawar. The police are said to have recovered an identity card from Davis for the US Peshawar consulate.

Pakistani intelligence agencies have so far not reached any conclusion and had not submitted a report regarding the incident till the filing of this report. However, initial data suggests that police or other security/intelligence agencies had no record or intimation of Davis movement or participation in official events since he first arrived in Pakistan in 2009.
According to policy guidelines and security advisory issued by the Foreign and Interior Ministries, US officials are, for their own security, not meant to move around without informing security officials due to the terror threat in the country. The vehicle Davis was driving was locally-registered, and did not have diplomatic number plates.

Initial reports revolved around a possible looting attempt by the men on the motorcycles, to which Davis is said to have retaliated. Conversely, some reports rejected the robbery bid. However, it is unclear what would have provoked Davis to open fire.

A new angle to the incident, submitted in a statement by Davis himself, has it that the vehicle he was driving had had a minor collision with a Rickshaw a little before the incident. Therefore, if not a robbery, the two men could have chased the vehicle to argue with the driver.

Tristram Perry, the information officer of the US Consulate in Lahore, did not answer queries regarding Davis immunity, saying that he has been requested by Islamabad to not comment on the incident. We are working with Pakistani authorities to determine the facts and work toward a resolution, he said

*FIRs against the deceased*

Meanwhile, though it was initially reported that the two deceased motorcyclists had no criminal record, the police registered FIRs against them posthumously on Friday, police sources told The Express Tribune.

The complainants, Doctor Farzand and Sheharyar Malik, in a written application, state that the two had robbed them of their mobiles and cash just before the incident and were fleeing.

As evidence, the two have referred to phone logs of calls made to Rescue 1-5 about the incident right after it happened. The police say that two mobile phones were recovered from the deceased which matched the description of those the applicants had complained to 1-5 had been stolen.

However, the police had also shown the recovery of foreign currency from the deceased, which they say had also been looted. On the other hand, there is yet to be a complaint regarding the theft of foreign currency on the day of the incident.

In the FIR registered against Davis, the police have also included charges of carrying an illegal weapon  a Glock pistol and two magazines. The police also recovered a digital camera, a phone tracker with a charger.
Conversely, the police so far have no information about the other vehicle that came to rescue Davis and crushed a motorcyclist  Ibadullah  in the process. After killing the man, the vehicle fled from the scene. Davis did not disclose who was heading to his rescue, but did tell the police that, after the incident, he telephoned his Regional Security Officer who might have sent some officials for his rescue.

A police officer, on condition of anonymity, said that they had, through the Lahore Capital City Police Officer, sent a formal request to Pakistans foreign office to contact the US Consulate to identify those in the vehicle for their arrest.
The security of the US consulate has meanwhile been increased in light of increasing protests against the incident, The Express Tribune has learnt.

Lahore shootings: As the case unfolds, the mystery deepens  The Express Tribune

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## logic

*May the Dead Rest in Peace*

*May the injured recover quickly*

The justice should take its course. This issue is not about Nationality or Religion. The matter should be investigated without any prejudice towards any of the people involved.

I do not think any rational and self respecting American will support a criminal if proven guilty in the court of law.

US has asked for the custody of the US national but Nawaz Sharif according to GEO NEWS has said the matter is in court and law must take its course.


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## DV RULES

Punjab police also must check the link between recent blast in Lahore and Davis & his cooperators in or outside US consulate.


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## VelocuR

Davis runs his own company-Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC, a company that provides "loss and risk management professionals." 

Page Title


He is a "Technical Adviser"-
Sources Identify 'Technical Adviser' With Special Forces Experience Involved in Apparent Self-Defense Killing


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## American Eagle

RaptorRX707 said:


> Davis runs his own company-Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC, a company that provides "loss and risk management professionals."
> 
> Page Title
> 
> 
> He is a "Technical Adviser"-
> Sources Identify 'Technical Adviser' With Special Forces Experience Involved in Apparent Self-Defense Killing



By providing the website folks can read it for themselves to see the range of services Mr. Davis's company Hyperion Protective Consultans, offers, which are wide and varied, none of which uses the terminology "killing" which again is another attempt here to stir folks up when robbers conceivably raising money to help fund Taliban and al Qaida efforts are found to have robbed a native Paksitani same day and before they tried, but failed, to rob Mr. Davis.

Here is the rage of Hyperions services for those who want a simple read without looking anything up:



> *What we offer to any business large or small alike,
> are the absolute essentials.
> 
> All established businesses in the U.S are regulated by government
> agencies to ensure that companies are compliant with the laws of the
> nation. However, most companies are preoccupied with the tasks of
> their businesses, which is expected. We here at Hyperion understand
> this and seek to provide the expertises that are needed to ensure
> compliance. This allows companies to do what it is they do best.
> 
> Our concepts are precise, accurate, and affordable to
> any business. We are proud to announce additional
> services to our customers, they are as follows:
> 
> Evaluation and modification of your entire Data Network.
> We will gladly augment your existing networks to increase
> protection from outside entities. Our staff will also suggest
> faster and more efficient system designs, tailored to needs of
> the client.
> 
> 
> In the area of Human Resources we are proud to announce
> that we now offer back ground checks for your potential
> employees. These checks are Federal, local, or both, suiting
> your specific needs.
> 
> 
> We have developed new protocols to evaluate business and
> real estate before acquisition. The "Due Diligence" Phase
> of a sale should be professionally conducted by a team of
> qualified individuals to ensure as little risk to the buyer, as
> possible. The purchase of a company and/or its assets,
> requires a speedy yet thorough evaluation that the sale
> encompasses, allow us to provide you with this service. Our
> research team will sift through all relative data to ensure
> that the buyer is receiving what they purchase. Contact us
> for all the information on this service, this process is crucial
> to asset or business purchases.
> 
> 
> We here at Hyperion pride ourselves on the knowledge
> that we provide new and affordable ways to satisfy the
> needs of our customers. Our concepts and
> methodology has been perfected over the years, leaving
> the best service this market has to offer. How, you may
> ask do we accomplish such an extravagant boast, allow
> me to explain!!!!!!
> 
> We have developed ways that allow companies to take over their own security and
> compliance. The only outsourcing required is that of our company which will
> evaluate your company's assets, procedures, and protocols. Through painstaking
> research all relevant data and all governing regulations are studied; with this
> information we will build an operation plan to secure every aspect of your
> business. The cost of the evaluation is the most competitive in this market, to date.
> The key to our success has been offer the "extras" after the initial evaluation. Our
> efforts have greatly expanded the areas of services and products, we now offer. Most
> of these efforts were motivated by customer requests. We have gladly produced a
> new product line centered in the areas of Surveillance, Surveillance, Alarms,
> Workplace Safety and Compliance. See our product pages for more information.
> We do not specialize in product sales. However our efforts are to offer better pricing
> to assist our clients, "convenience" being our focus.
> 
> How can the overall protection of my company assets
> increase my bottom line?
> 
> Proprietor or In House Security
> 
> This is the question that all businesses should ask, and we are the answer!
> Security in general is being out-sources to outside entities which have their on
> bottom line and agenda. This can be dangerous or in many cases ineffective
> because these companies in general do not have the clients interest in mind. For
> this reason proprietary or in-house security is a better option due to cost and legal
> liabilities which will still reside with the business contracting the service. This is
> of no real benefit to the company itself. If professionally drafted post orders and
> security personnel can be easily integrated in to the existing workplace of any
> company large enough to require security personnel. This will allow that
> company the flexible to assign duties that are specifically tailored to their
> particular needs.
> 
> It is more important that a company has the peace of mind, knowing these are
> their employees. We provide the post-orders or procedures and training if required.
> The personnel are hired as a an employee by the costumer, therefore under the
> direct guidance of the company and no other entities. These are the advantages
> control, trust, and savings. Could there be a easier way to increase your bottom
> line? Let us show your company the way through the use of our total business
> and property assessment. This one time fee for the evaluation and assessment
> report(based on standard hourly rate). All other services and products are
> optional. The flexibility is yours be as specific or broad as you prefer.
> 
> "Contract Loss Prevention"
> 
> Hyperion has developed additional ways to staff Clients. Loss Prevention
> Specialist can be contracted to a Client. Clients may obtain security for facility,
> properties and all other assets by contracted said services from Hyperion.
> Professional Loss Prevention Specialist are recruited and trained by Hyperion and
> placed with Clients requiring security through Loss Prevention Services. Clients
> are billed per Hour for said services. Confidentiality agreements are implemented
> for the protection of the Client. All personnel are scrutinized closely to obtain the
> best and most qualified professionals this market has to offer!*


----------



## SQ8

Which can go both ways..
Was this guy really trained to tell the situation on the ground apart?
when to take action.. or was he trigger happy from the start?
The only way to acertain that if for a proper investigation to follow.
being proper gentlemen.. never being robbers doesnt mean that you cant decide one day to shoot an American because of your beliefs.
at the same time, it doesnt mean that if the American felt he was being targeted because of seeing a gun.. he has the right to go chuck norris on anybody.. 
However, the driver of the Toyota 4by is definitely guilty of 1st degree murder and rash driving. And should be locked up.. and the embassy should be ahead on that. It is not excusable.

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## Awesome

santro said:


> Which can go both ways..
> Was this guy really trained to tell the situation on the ground apart?
> when to take action.. or was he trigger happy from the start?
> The only way to acertain that if for a proper investigation to follow.
> being proper gentlemen.. never being robbers doesnt mean that you cant decide one day to shoot an American because of your beliefs.
> at the same time, it doesnt mean that if the American felt he was being targeted because of seeing a gun.. he has the right to go chuck norris on anybody..
> However, the driver of the Toyota 4by is definitely guilty of 1st degree murder and rash driving. And should be locked up.. and the embassy should be ahead on that. It is not excusable.


Yeah the embassy's reluctance to hand him over further deepens the situation. That Pakistani does not have immunity and he may hold some secrets that may be unveiled by him during the investigation.

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## American Eagle

Under US laws, for analogy only, a person driving in heavy traffic when someone on a motor bike darts in front of and into their vehicle in traffic, resulting in a death, "may" have committed unintended vehicular homicide. This would be defined in a calm, objective, peaceful US court based on the facts discernable, not determined by a bunch of overseas Pakistanis writing from Russia, Canada, and elsewhere saying "hang the murderer, calling a Paksitani driver a murderer is absurd here."

People are killed the world over in automobile and motor cycle wrecks every day, 24/7. Not a good thing but not a basis to call a Pakistani driver a "murderer" when trying to make something out of a crowded traffic congested scene of an attempted robbery shooting, where the crowd as is typical in a third world setting is boiling around without knowing any hard facts merely rubber necking and getting in the way.

You would do better to look for folks "to hang" who were behind the terrorist bombing in Lahore the day before this robbery event and it's same day predecessor robbery event.

By the way, I suggest the Moderators, you, be paid 100% more. You make as much as I do on this site, a big 0. But, your volunteerism is appreciated at least by me, as I have done much volunteer work in my long lifetime of 71 years of living.

Volunteerism pays you via "psychic income" the satisfaction that you feel you have done more good than harm in your role as a Moderator.

My hat is off to the two new Moderators on this site. I for one appreciate your good efforts and volunteer, unpaid work on everyone's behalf here.


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## American Eagle

PS - I was referred to on one of many negative posts here today as "retired US Army." If folks bothered to read my postings, easily found under AMERICAN EAGLE, you would find that I am retired USAF Reserve. Thirty one years (6 active duty USAF, including 2 years in Pakistan) and 25 in the USAF Reserve at the Joint Chiefs of staff (field grade, 06 and 07 level), including around 8 years on the Chief of Staff-staff, as a reservist Assistant Chief of Staff in a part time, drilling reservist sense, at HQ US Special Operations Command in Florida.

My time in Pakistan included daily seeing dead and dying poor folks on the sidewalks in parts of Karachi, where people walked around or stepped over them without stopping to render help or assistance. Many had no clothes on their back and died exposed to the elements. Very tragic memories burned into my memory for the rest of my life.

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## DV RULES

American Eagle said:


> PS - I was referred to on one of many negative posts here today as "retired US Army." If folks bothered to read my postings, easily found under AMERICAN EAGLE, you would find that I am retired USAF Reserve. Thirty one years (6 active duty USAF, including 2 years in Pakistan) and 25 in the USAF Reserve at the Joint Chiefs of staff (field grade, 06 and 07 level), including around 8 years on the Chief of Staff-staff, as a reservist Assistant Chief of Staff in a part time, drilling reservist sense, at HQ US Special Operations Command in Florida.
> 
> My time in Pakistan included daily seeing dead and dying poor folks on the sidewalks in parts of Karachi, where people walked around or stepped over them without stopping to render help or assistance. Many had no clothes on their back and died exposed to the elements. Very tragic memories burned into my memory for the rest of my life.



I think your experience & memories are enough to realize yourself that US citizen took wrong action.


----------



## ThunderCat

Here are points that can go as evidence against Davis from all I've read so far:
-He had some military experience according to police.

-He was carrying a weapon illegally.

-He was able to communicate in Urdu

-He has been in Pakistan only ten days prior to the incident.

-He tried to escape the scene and those perusing him. 

Some evidence going in Davis's favor:
-The people he killed were suspected robbers

-He was passing through an area where crime is frequent.

Let the police and court take all these points into consideration and give him a fair trial.


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Under US laws, for analogy only, a person driving in heavy traffic when someone on a motor bike darts in front of and into their vehicle in traffic, resulting in a death, "may" have committed unintended vehicular homicide. This would be defined in a calm, objective, peaceful US court based on the facts discernable, not determined by a bunch of overseas Pakistanis writing from Russia, Canada, and elsewhere saying "hang the murderer, calling a Paksitani driver a murderer is absurd here."
> 
> People are killed the world over in automobile and motor cycle wrecks every day, 24/7. Not a good thing but not a basis to call a Pakistani driver a "murderer" when trying to make something out of a crowded traffic congested scene of an attempted robbery shooting, where the crowd as is typical in a third world setting is boiling around with knowing any hard facts merely rubber necking and getting in the way.
> 
> You would do better to look for folks "to hang" who were behind the terrorist bombing in Lahore the day before this robbery event and it's same day predecessor robbery event.
> 
> By the way, I suggest the Moderators, you, be paid 100% more. You make as much as I do on this site, a big 0. But, your volunteerism is appreciated at least by me, as I have done much volunteer work in my long lifetime of 71 years of living.
> 
> Volunteerism pays you via "psychic income" the satisfaction that you feel you have done more good than harm in your role as a Moderator.
> 
> My hat is off to the two new Moderators on this site. I for one appreciate your good efforts and volunteer, unpaid work on everyone's behalf here.


Btw, I read somewhere Davis was on a visit visa...

What is the Modus Operandi of declaring one a diplomat into the country? Is there a diplomatic visa? The determination of whether or not he has immunity can easily be done by checking if he entered Pakistan as a diplomat or as a technician.

Going through scores of news blurbs on this, I feel there is no investigation going on, the only thing they are doing is determining whether to keep him or release him and making sure their behinds are covered in the process.

I may be wrong but the FO passed the buck onto the IM and then the IM back to the FO. Go figure... Finally it seems like Rehman Malik found the best way out, pass it to the Parliament

Given the circumstances its the best thing to do, for both Pakistan and Davis. More eyeballs on the case, less chance of mishandling. Not to mention, there are reports, General Kayani himself has butted in and asked Malik to investigate upon his diplomatic and military links. Not confirmed obviously, this is just rumorville.

In any case, doesn't seem like he will be released any time soon.

Anyway, here's something found about what I was saying earlier:



> Gratis Visa of diplomats/non-diplomats assigned to the foreign missions and expatriate staff of UN agencies working in Pakistan and their families are granted by the Ministry of Interior on the recommendations of Ministry of Foreign Affairs
> 
> Visa to domestic servants of diplomats is issued free of charge, on the principle of reciprocity.
> 
> All foreign missions are required to furnish their applications for visa extension, well before the expiry of their visas, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
> 
> Visa extension authorization will be sent to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for onward transmission to the foreign mission concerned



So definitely there's a diplomatic stamping upon arrival.

Anyway, Pakistanis seem to be willing bend the rules as much as they can, if Davis is a spy or an agent gone rogue and helping the terrorists, then Pakistanis would hold this over the heads of Americans for at least the next 10 years.


----------



## LeGenD

DV RULES said:


> I think your experience & memories are enough to realize yourself that US citizen took wrong action.


Key words are 'circumstances' and 'personal psychology'.

This is not the first time that somebody tried to resist attempts of robbery. In many cases, robbers kill their targets upon resistance.

*If* those two guys were indeed robbers (FIR filed against them already), then we cannot say that reaction of Davis was out of proportion.



ThunderCat said:


> -He had some military experience according to police.


Not a valid point. Having military experience is not a bad thing.



ThunderCat said:


> -He was carrying a weapon illegally.


Valid point - Check 1



ThunderCat said:


> -He was able to communicate in Urdu


So? Foreigners cannot learn our language? 



ThunderCat said:


> -He has been in Pakistan only ten days prior to the incident.


Again! This is not a valid point at all. Things can go wrong at any moment.



ThunderCat said:


> -He tried to escape the scene and those perusing him.


Natural reaction of any panicked person. 



ThunderCat said:


> Some evidence going in Davis's favor:
> -The people he killed were suspected robbers
> 
> -He was passing through an area where crime is frequent.
> 
> Let the police and court take all these points into consideration and give him a fair trial.


Agree here. However, crimes can happen in any place.


----------



## DV RULES

ThunderCat said:


> Here are points that can go as evidence against Davis from all I've read so far:
> -He had some military experience according to police.
> 
> -He was carrying a weapon illegally.
> 
> -He was able to communicate in Urdu
> 
> -He has been in Pakistan only ten days prior to the incident.
> 
> -He tried to escape the scene and those perusing him.
> 
> Some evidence going in Davis's favor:
> -The people he killed were suspected robbers
> 
> -He was passing through an area where crime is frequent.
> 
> Let the police and court take all these points into consideration and give him a fair trial.



There is no clear evidence that suspects were robbers and if they were robber what use of 4 wireless sets, found from them? 

What do you mean by *area*? crime may be happened everywhere, there is no specification of possible crime's place & time.

Not agree with your evidences


----------



## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Under US laws, for analogy only, a person driving in heavy traffic when someone on a motor bike darts in front of and into their vehicle in traffic, resulting in a death, "may" have committed unintended vehicular homicide. This would be defined in a calm, objective, peaceful US court based on the facts discernable, not determined by a bunch of overseas Pakistanis writing from Russia, Canada, and elsewhere saying "hang the murderer, calling a Paksitani driver a murderer is absurd here."
> 
> People are killed the world over in automobile and motor cycle wrecks every day, 24/7. Not a good thing but not a basis to call a Pakistani driver a "murderer" when trying to make something out of a crowded traffic congested scene of an attempted robbery shooting, where the crowd as is typical in a third world setting is boiling around with knowing any hard facts merely rubber necking and getting in the way.
> 
> You would do better to look for folks "to hang" who were behind the terrorist bombing in Lahore the day before this robbery event and it's same day predecessor robbery event.
> 
> By the way, I suggest the Moderators, you, be paid 100% more. You make as much as I do on this site, a big 0. But, your volunteerism is appreciated at least by me, as I have done much volunteer work in my long lifetime of 71 years of living.
> 
> Volunteerism pays you via "psychic income" the satisfaction that you feel you have done more good than harm in your role as a Moderator.
> 
> My hat is off to the two new Moderators on this site. I for one appreciate your good efforts and volunteer, unpaid work on everyone's behalf here.



With due respect the incident happened in Pakistan and the accused(s) will be tired under Pakistani law and the Pakistan Penal code. 

Pakistani Penal Code. 320:
320.	Punishment for qatl-i-khata by rash or negligent driving:
Whoever commits qatl-ikhata by rash or negligent driving shall, having regard to the facts and circumstances the case, in addition to diyat, be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years.
Pakistan Penal Code (Act XLV of 1860)



> Under US laws, for analogy only, a person driving in heavy traffic when someone on a motor bike darts in front of and into their vehicle in traffic, resulting in a death, "may" have committed unintended vehicular homicide.



Correction:


> Vehicular homicide (also known as vehicular manslaughter) in most states in the United States,* is a crime.* *In general, it involves death that results from the negligent operation of a vehicle*, *or more so a result from driving while committing an unlawful act that does not amount to a felony.* In the Model Penal Code there is no separate category of vehicular homicide, and vehicular homicides that involve negligence. Both are included in the overall category of negligent homicide.[1][2] It can be compared to the offense of dangerous driving causing death in other countries.



Consider the following
1. Heavy Traffic ( Hazard Perception)
2. Exceeding the mandated speed limit at a very busy "unmarked" Junction (Stipulated Pakistani Speed Limit 60KM =37 MPH.)

Here is an excrept from the National Highway and Motorway Police Safe Driving Handbook:



> Adapt your driving to the type of road. Take particular care on roads with junctions.
> 
> 1.slow down
> 2. be prepared for vehicles pulling out
> 
> Inside streets and country lanes where there may be unmarked junctions, proceed cautiously- nobody has priority at an unmarked junction.



2. Defensive Driving ( reduce speed and be self aware)

3. Who is responsible for the car *" the driver".
*



> This would be defined in a calm, objective, peaceful US court based on the facts discernable, not determined by a bunch of overseas Pakistanis writing from Russia, Canada, and elsewhere saying "hang the murderer, calling a Paksitani driver a murderer is absurd here."





> peaceful US court


And what, our legal system consists or Kangaroos?



> not determined by a bunch of overseas Pakistanis writing from Russia, Canada, and elsewhere


This comment here is unwarranted, you have no right to dictate how any member of the forum should or should not post in exhibiting their emotions. Secondly be they overseas or not, they are "Pakistani" and as such are stakeholders in what happens in Pakistan.

Anyway remember the OJ Simpson trial, how people were screaming for his blood... Did that influence the trial?.... Use Commonsense Please!!!



> People are killed the world over in automobile and motor cycle wrecks every day, 24/7. Not a good thing but not a basis to call a Pakistani driver a "murderer" when trying to make something out of a crowded traffic congested scene of an attempted robbery shooting, where the crowd as is typical in a third world setting is boiling around with knowing any hard facts merely rubber necking and getting in the way.



Please refer back to what the Pakistani LAW says on this... Thank you.

Here is a list of common traffic viloations covered under the jurisdiction of the Traffic Police:


> 1
> 
> Exceeding prescribed speed limit
> 
> 2
> 
> Carrying passengers in a public service vehicle exceeding permissible limit
> 
> 3
> 
> Violation of traffic signals (electrical or manual)
> 
> 4
> 
> Over loading a goods vehicle
> 
> 5
> 
> Driving a motor vehicle at night without proper lights
> 
> 6
> 
> Driving a motor vehicle on the wrong side of the road
> 
> 7
> 
> Driving a motor vehicle with tinted/covered glasses
> 
> 
> 8
> 
> Violation of line/lane/zebra crossing etc.
> 
> 9
> 
> Playing a motor vehicle where and when prohibited.
> 
> 10
> 
> Obstructing traffic
> 
> 11
> 
> Reckless and negligent driving.
> 
> 12
> 
> Driving a motor vehicle without driving license
> 
> 13
> 
> Using a pressure horn, musical horn or using any other horn in a silence zone
> 
> 14
> 
> Emitting excessive smoke.
> 
> 15
> 
> Driving an unregistered motor vehicle
> 
> 16
> 
> Driving in violation of age limit
> 
> 17
> 
> Driving a motor vehicle without fitness certificate
> 
> 18
> 
> Driving without or in violation of condition of route permit
> 
> 19
> 
> Riding a two wheel motorcycle without safety helmet
> 
> 20
> 
> Pillion riding by more than two persons
> 
> 21
> 
> Use of hand-held mobile phone while driving.
> 
> 22
> 
> Non-fastening of seat belt while driving on a notified road
> 
> 23
> 
> Violation of parking rules
> 
> 24
> 
> Violation of any other provision of the Ordinance or the rules made there under punishable under section 112

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## American Eagle

Quite the contrary, Mr. Davis fired in self defense and saved his own life thereby.

That is why I posted a partial diary here of past murders of other Americans by thugs and terrorists inside Paksitan starting from 2006 to present time, within one of today's posting from me.

Pakistan has become much worse in terms of failed law and order since 911, an unhappy but hard statistical fact.

It has shown less concern for the murders of it's own people and in this instance, based on rabin inputs from overseas Pakitanis or who parents were originally from Pakistan and instead followed a very bad characteristic of poorer nations of always looking to blame others, outsiders, Americans, for their hard times.

India has done better than Pakistan in that it chose to be secular and focus on free enterprise.

Paksitan's business and banking efforts are daily challenged by the radical views of terrorists version of Islam which finds it wrong to make a profit, charge interest, to participate in world's free enterprise system.

Yet Pakistan, for that matter India, and other emerged or emerging nations are 100% reliant on and have to have free enterprise venture capital to achieve.

Communist China has become a hybrid free enterprise zone paradox and now holds the "paper" of most of the free world's major economies, including of the US and Japan.

Of course the terrorists have murdered in recent years Chinese in Pakistan there to help fund and build for creating of jobs for Paksitanis particularly in Balochistan the Port of Gwadar. This port is a major huge potential generator of jobs for Balochis, with to be completed refineries, docks, ship yards, a major railroad which it will be the hub of, and it will also be if not already a major trucking hub.

Floods and national disasters bring quick primarily US provided and funded rescue and survival personnel and equipment. We never fail to help, even when those we help are short signed, bigoted and want to find fault when the real fault lies in their own hearts for not having respect for differing points of view in busienss, economics, and the broad array of religious beliefs of a whole world of "others."

Yet the Indus River Vallely was a major cradle that got our whole world now free enterprise systme into existance through thousands of years of economic and religious evolution.

CARAVANS by James Mitchner is still a good book to read to know how it used to be when what we today know as Afghanistan was the trade route from the West to the Orient, to China and Japan, over the past two thousand years or more.


----------



## Patriot

American Eagle said:


> PS - I was referred to on one of many negative posts here today as "retired US Army." If folks bothered to read my postings, easily found under AMERICAN EAGLE, you would find that I am retired USAF Reserve. Thirty one years (6 active duty USAF, including 2 years in Pakistan) and 25 in the USAF Reserve at the Joint Chiefs of staff (field grade, 06 and 07 level), including around 8 years on the Chief of Staff-staff, as a reservist Assistant Chief of Staff in a part time, drilling reservist sense, at HQ US Special Operations Command in Florida.
> 
> My time in Pakistan included daily seeing dead and dying poor folks on the sidewalks in parts of Karachi, where people walked around or stepped over them without stopping to render help or assistance. Many had no clothes on their back and died exposed to the elements. Very tragic memories burned into my memory for the rest of my life.


Sir no offense intended but Respect Is Earned. Not Commanded, Not Demanded.I had a lot of respect for you but lost it all after seeing your posts here and how you labeled 3 Pakistanis terrorists without any proof and showing utter ignorance.You would know by reading my posts that i am quite pro America and the point i am defending here has nothing whatsoever to do with the shooter being American.I would have said the same thing if shooter was Pakistani.Refer to my posts in Salman Taseer's assassination thread and you can see how angry i was and posted there a lot more then here!

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Quite the contrary, Mr. Davis fired in self defense and saved his own life thereby.
> 
> That is why I posted a partial diary here of past murders of other Americans by thugs and terrorists inside Paksitan starting from 2006 to present time, within one of today's posting from me.
> 
> Pakistan has become much worse in terms of failed law and order since 911, an unhappy but hard statistical fact.
> 
> It has shown less concern for the murders of it's own people and in this instance, based on rabin inputs from overseas Pakitanis or who parents were originally from Pakistan and instead followed a very bad characteristic of poorer nations of always looking to blame others, outsiders, Americans, for their hard times.
> 
> India has done better than Pakistan in that it chose to be secular and focus on free enterprise.
> 
> Paksitan's business and banking efforts are daily challenged by the radical views of terrorists version of Islam which finds it wrong to make a profit, charge interest, to participate in world's free enterprise system.
> 
> Yet Pakistan, for that matter India, and other emerged or emerging nations are 100% reliant on and have to have free enterprise venture capital to achieve.
> 
> Communist China has become a hybrid free enterprise zone paradox and now holds the "paper" of most of the free world's major economies, including of the US and Japan.
> 
> Of course the terrorists have murdered in recent years Chinese in Pakistan there to help fund and build for creating of jobs for Paksitanis particularly in Balochistan the Port of Gwadar. This port is a major huge potential generator of jobs for Balochis, with to be completed refineries, docks, ship yards, a major railroad which it will be the hub of, and it will also be if not already a major trucking hub.
> 
> Floods and national disasters bring quick primarily US provided and funded rescue and survival personnel and equipment. We never fail to help, even when those we help are short signed, bigoted and want to find fault when the real fault lies in their own hearts for not having respect for differing points of view in busienss, economics, and the broad array of religious beliefs of a whole world of "others."
> 
> Yet the Indus River Vallely was a major cradle that got our whole world now free enterprise systme into existance through thousands of years of economic and religious evolution.
> 
> CARAVANS by James Mitchner is still a good book to read to know how it used to be when what we today know as Afghanistan was the trade route from the West to the Orient, to China and Japan, over the past two thousand years or more.





Relevance, enlightening as your analysis is, please may we keep this thread about the facts behind the "incident" in Lahore and not a pre-incident analysis on the socio and economic drivers behind what may or may not be the motivating factor behind the shortcomings of Pakistan. 

Many thanks.

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## zs4

"Pakistani authorities charged 647 people with offences under the blasphemy laws between 1986 and 2007[15]. Fifty percent of the people charged were non-Muslim (3% of the national population).[15] 20 of those charged were murdered.[15]"

If talking negatively about the Prophet(pbuh) warrants death, what about killing one of the Prophet's followers?


----------



## ares

Lahore deaths accused 'is diplomat, must be freed' - US


BBC News - Lahore deaths accused &#039;is diplomat, must be freed&#039; - US

The US embassy in Pakistan has called for "the immediate release" of an American charged with murdering two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore.

The embassy said the man had US diplomatic status and therefore was immune from prosecution.

"The diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles" on 27 January, it added.

The man - identified in Pakistan as Raymond Davis - was charged with the murder of the two men on Friday.

He told the court in Lahore that he had fired his gun in self-defence.

Another person was run over and killed by a vehicle carrying Mr Davis' colleagues as they came to his aid, police and witnesses have said.

Magistrates have remanded Mr Davis in custody until next week, while police investigate the shooting.

Police 'failure'
"The United States Embassy in Pakistan calls for the immediate release of a US diplomat unlawfully detained by authorities in Lahore," the embassy said in a statement on Saturday.

"The diplomat, assigned to the US Embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012.


"When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status.

The embassy added that it regretted "that this incident resulted in loss of life".

It did not name the man, who had been previously described as a consular employee in Lahore.

Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen told the BBC Mr Davis was employed on "security duties" in the consulate.

He did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms, according to the Pakistani authorities.

Mr Tareen said a Glock pistol had been recovered from Mr Davis and that pistols had also been found on the two men shot dead.

Mr Davis is said to have told police that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint.

Police said he told officers that he had withdrawn money from a cash machine shortly before the incident.

Pakistani investigators have said the two men were probably robbers, although relatives dispute this.

More than 100 people held a protest rally in Lahore in the aftermath of Thursday's incident, setting tyres ablaze.

The incident could inflame anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Karachi says.

Many Pakistanis resent the US because of regular air strikes carried out by its drone aircraft in north-west Pakistan, and because of America's role in neighbouring Afghanistan, our correspondent adds.


----------



## American Eagle

> Asim Aquil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, I read somewhere Davis was on a visit visa...
> 
> 
> 
> From what facts, not wild opinions and guesstimates, I can understand Mr. Davis was a contract hire of the US Deparmtent of State which did and does allow him to be under a Diplomatic Passport and associated Paksitani Visa as a recognized Diplomat per se. This he is and remains, a legally defined Diplomat.
> 
> Consular Service US Department of State folks include all who do security work for the State Dept. offices overseas, worldwide.
> 
> Contracting out in this time of hot war on terrorism services that in times gone forever were less threatening is the name of the game.
> 
> Contracted out Diplomatic Passport Security Personnel are the norm now for the US Department of State since 911.
> 
> In Islamabad the increase in the US Marine armed embassy guards was necessitated by the rise in terrorism and threats to all US diplomatic personnel in the Pakistani Capital. Does anyone remember President Musharraf using the Pakitani Army to clean out the Red Madrassa in Islamabad, where boys and girls were being trained by Al Qaida thugs to become terrorist fighters and suicide bombers?
> 
> These are wild times in Pakistan and all sorts of security and self protection needs exist if you are to survive and come home alive from tour of duty in the Us State Dept. inside Pakistan.
> 
> Note that Pakistan has no national, unified guns laws. Never has had such. Owning and using weapons of self protection varies from city to city, town to town. No absolutely No standardized law exists on this topic whatsoever.
> 
> I saw daily folks all over Karachi, Peshawar, Lahore, Rawalpindi and lesser town and villages in what was then West Pakistan "armed to the teeth" to protect themselves and their families and loved ones. Looking at overseas newsclips this practive of having and using weapons for self preservation has gottenworse, not better. But today it is somewhat justifiable as the wildness of rampant terrorism, attacks on police barracks, bombings of innocent Muslins going about their routine daily lives all over Pakistan leave everyone open to being murdered by terrorists, both shooters and suicide bombers.
Click to expand...


----------



## RescueRanger

ares said:


> Lahore deaths accused 'is diplomat, must be freed' - US
> 
> 
> BBC News - Lahore deaths accused 'is diplomat, must be freed' - US
> 
> The US embassy in Pakistan has called for "the immediate release" of an American charged with murdering two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore.
> 
> The embassy said the man had US diplomatic status and therefore was immune from prosecution.
> 
> "The diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles" on 27 January, it added.
> 
> The man - identified in Pakistan as Raymond Davis - was charged with the murder of the two men on Friday.
> 
> He told the court in Lahore that he had fired his gun in self-defence.
> 
> Another person was run over and killed by a vehicle carrying Mr Davis' colleagues as they came to his aid, police and witnesses have said.
> 
> Magistrates have remanded Mr Davis in custody until next week, while police investigate the shooting.
> 
> Police 'failure'
> "The United States Embassy in Pakistan calls for the immediate release of a US diplomat unlawfully detained by authorities in Lahore," the embassy said in a statement on Saturday.
> 
> "The diplomat, assigned to the US Embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012.
> 
> 
> "When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status.
> 
> The embassy added that it regretted "that this incident resulted in loss of life".
> 
> It did not name the man, who had been previously described as a consular employee in Lahore.
> 
> Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen told the BBC Mr Davis was employed on "security duties" in the consulate.
> 
> He did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms, according to the Pakistani authorities.
> 
> Mr Tareen said a Glock pistol had been recovered from Mr Davis and that pistols had also been found on the two men shot dead.
> 
> Mr Davis is said to have told police that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint.
> 
> Police said he told officers that he had withdrawn money from a cash machine shortly before the incident.
> 
> Pakistani investigators have said the two men were probably robbers, although relatives dispute this.
> 
> More than 100 people held a protest rally in Lahore in the aftermath of Thursday's incident, setting tyres ablaze.
> 
> The incident could inflame anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Karachi says.
> 
> Many Pakistanis resent the US because of regular air strikes carried out by its drone aircraft in north-west Pakistan, and because of America's role in neighbouring Afghanistan, our correspondent adds.



Lol, first he is a "civilian", then he is a "Civilian Technical Advisor", then he is a "Contractor", then a "Non Diplomatic Official" and now a "Diplomat".

Answer me this US Embassy, if he is a Diplomat the why was his name not registered with the Foreign Office in Islamabad as such upon his arrival, furthermore why was a letter sent to the Foreign Office requesting a Non-DIPLOMATIC ID for this man?

Also:



> Raymond Davis can't get diplomatic immunity: FO



Pakistan foreign office has said that US citizen Raymond Davis has no diplomatic immunity because he is not an official of US foreign office but he is a part of technical and administrative staff in the US embassy in Islamabad , Dunya News reported on Saturday .


As US has demanded immediate release of its citizen and Raymond Davis, who allegedly killed two people in Lahore three days ago. 

The US embassy in Pakistan issued a statement, which stated that Raymond shot at two people in self-defence and thus is being in illegal captivity inside Pakistan. 

When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, it said in a statement.

It further said that Pakistan cannot, in anyway, detain its citizen; Raymonds diplomatic visa would be expired in 2012. However, it grieved the death of two people at the hands of its citizen. 

It is pertinent to mention that US national named Raymond David shot at 2 persons at Qartaba Chowk and hit another bike rider while driving rashly, in an attempt to to escape the scene. The motorcyclist Ubaidur Rehman was killed on the spot while other two injured -- Faizan Haider and an unidentified person -- succumbed to their injuries in the Services Hospital. 

Police apprehended Davis from Purani Anarkali and confiscated a pistol with bullets and three mobile phones from his possession. Police have taken Raymond's car into custody and started investigation of the incident. The accused told the police that he opened fire on the deceased at Qartaba Chowk, Lahore in his defence as they tried to rob him. 

SSP (security) Rana Faisal,while talking to Dunya News, confirmed that the foreigner is a US citizen and the two deceased wanted to stop Raymond on gun point. 

US Embassy spokesman in Islamabad said that they are in contact with Pakistani government over the issue. The other day Raymond was remanded in police custody for 6 days.

Dunya News: Pakistan:-Raymond Davis can't get diplomatic immunity: FO

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## Majnun

Pakistan rebuffs call for US gunman&#8217;s quick release | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday rebuffed a call from the United States for the immediate release of an American man who shot dead two men in a Lahore street, saying its legal process must be respected.
> 
> The US embassy had claimed diplomatic immunity on behalf of Raymond Davis, previously described as a consulate employee, who is under investigation on double murder charges after shooting dead the two motorcyclists this week.
> 
> This matter is sub judice in a court of law and the legal process should be respected, Pakistani foreign ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said in a statement, adding that a report was awaited from Punjab police.
> 
> Davis, who has been held at a Lahore police station since the incident, appeared before a magistrates court Friday and said he had fired in self-defence. He was remanded into police custody for six days.
> 
> On Saturday, two days after the deadly shooting, the US embassy in Islamabad released a statement saying he had diplomatic status and was therefore being detained unlawfully.
> 
> When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, it said.
> 
> Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status with either the US consulate general in Lahore or the US embassy in Islamabad.
> 
> Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory.The statement said the man had a diplomatic passport and a visa for Pakistan valid until June 2012, and added that he had acted in self-defence when two armed men on motorcycles tried to rob him.
> 
> The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area, it said.
> 
> Provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah said that the US should respect Pakistans courts and should raise the issue of diplomatic immunity there.
> 
> The Punjab government respects the sentiments of the Pakistani public and wants to fulfil legal requirements, he told AFP in Lahore.
> 
> US ambassador Cameron Munter telephoned Pakistan Muslim League (N) chief Nawaz Sharif on Saturday and sought his help to secure Daviss release, Sharifs spokesman Pervaiz Rashid said.
> 
> Sharif, whose PML-N rules the politically important Punjab province, also told the ambassador that the matter was to be handled by the court, he said.
> 
> Police said Friday that two handguns had been found close to the victims bodies, but that they so far appeared to have no previous criminal record.
> 
> Imran Haider, the elder brother of one of the motorcyclists, 22-year-old Faizan Haider, claimed his brother only carried a pistol for protection and insisted the gun was licensed.
> 
> A third Pakistani was crushed to death by a consulate car that went to help Davis following the shooting in a busy street in the eastern city.
> 
> Punjab provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah has said that American influence would not be allowed to affect the criminal proceedings.
> 
> Pakistan is a vital US ally in the American-led war on terror.
> 
> The US embassy said it regretted that this incident resulted in loss of life and said: We greatly value the cooperation and partnership between Pakistan and the United States, which is vital to the interests of both countries.The incident sparked small protests across Pakistan on Friday, a sign of the anti-American sentiment that is already running high partly because of a covert US drone campaign in the northwest tribal areas that has provoked deadly revenge attacks by militants.  AFP


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## jamal18

A colombian embassy security guard, a senior NCO in the colombian army, killed a teenager in London in some sort of robbery/ self-defence situation.

The colombian embassy immediately waived his diplomatic immunity and worked with the British police to solve the problem.


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## zs4

American Eagle said:


> Quite the contrary, Mr. Davis fired in self defense and saved his own life thereby.



He actually has put his life and the life of other Americans in Pakistan in danger by firing. The objective of robbers is to take your possessions, not kill you. If they fire, they attract attention to themselves. Had he not reacted with a gun, the worst would have been him losing his possessions. 3 cellphones and a glock? big deal.

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## zs4

I think Pakistan will have to try this guy if they want to prevent revolution fever from spreading into Pakistan. 

I also read Davis was repeatedly demanding better security for himself when he got caught by the police. Is he fearing the Lahore mob, or that they may send in "The Cleaner" since he may know too much.


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## zs4

Since he isn't part of the State dept, and not part of an army, and he is definitely involved in something suspicious, can we say he is an enemy combatant? Can Pakistan take him to a secret location and waterboard him? Does the Pakistani government even have the balls to do that?


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## RescueRanger

zs4 said:


> I think Pakistan will have to try this guy if they want to prevent revolution fever from spreading into Pakistan.
> 
> I also read Davis was repeatedly demanding better security for himself when he got caught by the police. Is he fearing the Lahore mob, or that they may send in "The Cleaner" since he may know too much.



To be fair i actually feel his request for heightened security should be respected. If he is indeed in fear of his life because of public sentiment or anything else they should try him in the Jail, it has been done before and it is a fair request.

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## American Eagle

Arm chair coaching after the fact qualifies for the Scottish Poet Robert (Bobby) Burns award which reads: "Anyone can find fault and criticize...after the fact."

In fact Mr. Davis life was threatened, his windshield was shot through by the thugs who fired at him...photos all over the Internet with impressions in the glass of bullets going into the car.

No one has ever been trained to shoot out through their own windshield, that is flatly crazy and never happened.

Two dead crooks are not martyrs. They had robbed a native Pakitani earlier the same day.

Americans have been killed inside Pakistan on several occasions and this would have been the same outcome, a shot dead American if he had not returned fire and saved his own life.

This is where I tell my by blood British Cousins that their government is crazy not to have police routinely carry fire arms and to still use the death penalty.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> No one has ever been trained to shoot out through their own windshield, that is flatly crazy and never happened.



Excuse me?

Did you claim you are Ex-Spec Ops and you don't even know Immediate Action Drills for Countering Vehicle Ambush?

YouTube - Vehicle Counterambush Drill - Windshield Shooting

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Hes not even a Diplomat... ??


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## American Eagle

zs4 said:


> "Pakistani authorities charged 647 people with offences under the blasphemy laws between 1986 and 2007[15]. Fifty percent of the people charged were non-Muslim (3% of the national population).[15] 20 of those charged were murdered.[15]"
> 
> If talking negatively about the Prophet(pbuh) warrants death, what about killing one of the Prophet's followers?



Killing armed thieves has nothing to do with nothing. Crooks whose stolen wealth as often as not goes into funding local terrorists and terorism.


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## pakdefender

your british couins regularly get killed by your guys in 'friendly firing' by trigger happy americans .. lol

British soldier died in friendly fire incident, MoD says | UK news | The Guardian 

(Not so) Friendly Fire Video

POPOV no friendlies this far north.... 
BOOM **dead brit cousin on the ground ***

Watch from 7:00 onwards , they blow away their own 'cousins' and then just say 'Ahhh Sh!t , Fu<k , God Bless it' [ this must sound familier to Mr ex USAF American eagle ]

********.com - Shock: U.S. Friendly Fire Bombing Video Leaked


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## RescueRanger

pakdefender said:


> your british couins regularly get killed by your guys in 'friendly firing' by trigger happy americans .. lol
> 
> British soldier died in friendly fire incident, MoD says | UK news | The Guardian
> 
> (Not so) Friendly Fire Video
> 
> POPOV no friendlies this far north....
> BOOM **dead brit cousin on the ground ***
> 
> Watch from 7:00 onwards , they blow away their own 'cousins' and then just say 'Ahhh '
> 
> ********.com - Shock: U.S. Friendly Fire Bombing Video Leaked



Irrelevant and pointless.

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## Luftwaffe

So an american non diplomat drives crazy to save himself and crushes another innocent man and "they" demand to release him. 
According to International Traffic Rules everyone driving vehicles must drive safe protecting pedestrians and other vehicles. So he can even be dragged into case of driving rash blindly putting others at danger.

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## zs4

Maybe those shot are not martyrs, but the third one killed is a victim. One of the fathers wants a hanging. The worst move for the USA would be to see this guy released. The drones have killed anywhere from 1,374 to 2,189 Pakistanis. Hanging Davis (for real, or simulated) will be like opening a release valve to alleviate pressure. Pakistanis will calm down, USA Black Ops(?) and drone can continue.


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## RescueRanger

zs4 said:


> Maybe those shot are not martyrs, but the third one killed is a victim. One of the fathers wants a hanging. The worst move for the USA would be to see this guy released. The drones have killed anywhere from 1,374 to 2,189 Pakistanis. Hanging Davis (for real, or simulated) will be like opening a release valve to alleviate pressure. Pakistanis will calm down, USA Black Ops(?) and drone can continue.



No one is getting hanged... Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

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## American Eagle

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Hes not even a Diplomat... ??



Diplomatic status, having a Diplomatic Passport and accompanying Pakistani Visa with a future expiration date are what any and all Amricans, career employees or contract employees, have in the service of the US Department of State.

There are two main career tracks in the US State Dept. one of which is now done sometimes, in part, based on overseas locations, by contract instead of career service employees.

1. So called "Diplomats" are in the US Foreign Service and are Foreign Service Officers, which includes the most senior rank of being a US Ambassador.

2. Diplomatic Service includes US Department of State Consular Services employees and contract hired related personnel as in this case Security Consultant or Service Performance Personnel.

Both these two categories have DIPLOMATIC PASSPORTS...don't confused the term Diplomat with the broader term Diplomatic...both categories have diplomatic immunity.

3. A third category, which I was at the old Karachi US Embassy, are US military personnel who have Official US Military Passports. These folks, also, as I used to be one, ALSO have Diplomatic Immunity although we were not "diplomats" per se.

All three categories have "Diplomatic Immunity."

For other nations where the US has military bases run and operated by US Armed Forces you have In Country Status of Forces Agreements which lay out the legalisms and terms and conditions, and protections, for US military personnel serving in a particular, uniquely so, foreign nation with one or more US military bases.


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## pakdefender

we cannot allow mercinaries to be smuggled into the coutry through diplomatic channels , this guys is blackwater-type mercinary and has been booked for murder , he cannot be released and public pressure will ensure that he is not released.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Diplomatic status, having a Diplomatic Passport and accompanying Pakistani Visa with a future expiration date are what any and all Amricans, career employees or contract employees, have in the service of the US Department of State.
> 
> There are two main career tracks in the US State Dept. one of which is now done sometimes, in part, based on overseas locations, by contract instead of career service employees.
> 
> 1. So called "Diplomats" are in the US Foreign Service and are Foreign Service Officers, which includes the most senior rank of being a US Ambassador.
> 
> 2. Diplomatic Service includes US Department of State Consular Services employees and contract hired related personnel as in this case Security Consultant or Service Performance Personnel.
> 
> Both these two categories have DIPLOMATIC PASSPORTS...don't confused the term Diplomat with the broader term Diplomatic...both categories have diplomatic immunity.
> 
> 3. A third category, which I was at the old Karachi US Embassy, are US military personnel who have Official US Military Passports. These folks, also, as I used to be one, ALSO have Diplomatic Immunity although we were not "diplomats" per se.
> 
> All three categories have "Diplomatic Immunity."



Incorrect. He is not a State Dept Employee but a consultant attached to Islamabad Embassy so he comes under one of No.2 of the following:



> DEFINITIONS:
> 1. Ordinarily Resident (OR): A citizen of the host country or a citizen of another country who has the required work
> and/or residency permit for employment in country.
> 
> 2. Not-Ordinarily Resident (NOR): Typically NORs are U.S. citizen EFMs (Eligible Family Members) and family members of United States Government personnel who are on the travel orders and under Chief of Mission authority, or other personnel having diplomatic privileges and immunities.



http://islamabad.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/11_12_guard_receptionist_lahore.pdf

NOTE: Key word here being...


> *Typically NORs are U.S. citizen *EFMs (Eligible Family Members) and family members of United States Government personnel



*Secondly...*


> personnel who are on the travel orders and under Chief of Mission authority, or other personnel having diplomatic privileges and immunities.



This is clear that they are not accorded the same right's and privileges as Diplomats or State Department Employees or Members of say MSG Battalion would be accustom to having.

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## pakdefender

the brits smuggled in and built an entire army under the guise of a trading company .. the east india company only to use that to overthrow the local rulers when the opertunity presented itself and put the sub-continent under the brtish boot for one hundered years , it would be supremely foolish on our part to let history repeat itself.


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## pakdefender

RescueRanger said:


> Irrelevant and pointless.



its relevant , it shows americans are trigger happy


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## American Eagle

Luftwaffe said:


> So an american non diplomat drives crazy to save himself and crushes another innocent man and "they" demand to release him.
> According to International Traffic Rules everyone driving vehicles must drive safe protecting pedestrians and other vehicles. So he can even be dragged into case of driving rash blindly putting others at danger.



Your facts and premise are 100% wrong as in incorrect.

The driver of the vehicle that hit a third person, a motor cyclist per the police reports, not a pedestrian, was not an American driver. It was a Pakistani national employed to drive by the US Consular Service in Lahore. Please get your facts correct and straight.

Then you are dealing with a mere traffic accident, no one was either shot nor murdered to use tough language. Someone was killed in a vehicle collision. Happens every day, not a good thing, but happens every day, in Paksitan and all over the driving world.

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## RescueRanger

pakdefender said:


> its relevant , it shows americans are trigger happy



My instructors were American's they were some of the best people i have come across.. Generalizations are never fair. 

That statement would be akin to say "all Muslims are terrorists"...

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## American Eagle

pakdefender said:


> the brits smuggled in and built an entire army under the guise of a trading company .. the east india company only to use that to overthrow the local rulers when the opertunity presented itself and put the sub-continent under the brtish boot for one hundered years , it would be supremely foolish on our part to let history repeat itself.



The old RAJ didn't sneak in anywhere. They made trading contracts, treaties with overlords among the natives, and were very upfront in who and what they were in India.

Old RAJ trained teachers, doctors, all skills from raw laborers up to top administrators which stood old India, and eventually after partition, Paksitan, in very good stead. The RAJ incubated and created what became the Civil Service and military of both nations today.

Ever noticed the Pak and Indian military bands, in British style garb, playing bag pipes even today? Memories in the historic Civil Service and Military service, all ranks, are very good and may still living now in the Subcontinenet draw Brisish late in the 1940s era UK pensions.


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## pakdefender

He will not be released , there is a poltical angle to this as well , this happened in Punjab where the PML-N is in government , if it comes to light that they came under pressure from the yanks and released this murderer then they know that their rivals will use this against them , the Federal government will try to keep its hands off this case as its already quite weakened so in all this guy will be in Pakistani hawalat for some time to come.


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## ThunderCat

YouTube - Punjab law minister holds press conference on Lahore shooting


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## JonAsad

RescueRanger said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Did you claim you are Ex-Spec Ops and you don't even know Immediate Action Drills for Countering Vehicle Ambush?
> 
> YouTube - Vehicle Counterambush Drill - Windshield Shooting



Haha AE pwned


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## American Eagle

> RescueRanger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. He is not a State Dept Employee but a consultant attached to Islamabad Embassy so he comes under one of No.2 of the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your opinion, but you are mistaken.
> 
> The US Government has for years moved toward contracting out various career job tasks, as in this case, security for the US Department of State. This is a process and decision internal to the US State Dept. not subject to reinterpretation by anyone else anywhere.
> 
> When the US State Dept. sends a contracted out employee, and employee Mr. Davis is, into a foreign assignment on a US Diplomatic Passport with a recognized Paksitani Visa added there on, there is no debate. Mr. Davis has a Dipomatic Passport and has Diplomatic Immunity. Period. End of story.
Click to expand...


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Killing armed thieves has nothing to do with nothing. Crooks whose stolen wealth as often as not goes into funding local terrorists and terorism.



*stop maligning the DEAD*

*Matter is in court of Law you do not have the right to call them terrorist.*

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## Thomas

RescueRanger said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Did you claim you are Ex-Spec Ops and you don't even know Immediate Action Drills for Countering Vehicle Ambush?
> 
> YouTube - Vehicle Counterambush Drill - Windshield Shooting



don't believe he claimed that he was, if so please link it.........


here is link that charts diplomatic immunity. and it is still up in the air what his position was. it changes depending on the source. 

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/150531.pdf


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## pakistanamerican

pakdefender said:


> the brits smuggled in and built an entire army under the guise of a trading company .. the east india company only to use that to overthrow the local rulers when the opertunity presented itself and put the sub-continent under the brtish boot for one hundered years , it would be supremely foolish on our part to let history repeat itself.




Pakistan made more progress when it was ruled by the Brits then it is now.


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## pakistanamerican

santro said:


> Which can go both ways..
> Was this guy really trained to tell the situation on the ground apart?
> when to take action.. or was he trigger happy from the start?
> The only way to acertain that if for a proper investigation to follow.
> being proper gentlemen.. never being robbers doesnt mean that you cant decide one day to shoot an American because of your beliefs.
> at the same time, it doesnt mean that if the American felt he was being targeted because of seeing a gun.. he has the right to go chuck norris on anybody..
> However, the driver of the Toyota 4by is definitely guilty of 1st degree murder and rash driving. And should be locked up.. and the embassy should be ahead on that. It is not excusable.



The death of the pedestrian was an accident, simply an accident, do you expect every time some Pakistani in the USA kills some one in an accident in the USA that it be considered a crime.


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## American Eagle

logic said:


> *stop maligning the DEAD*
> 
> *Matter is in court of Law you do not have the right to call them terrorist.*



I agree no one should malign the honored dead. Thus I remain baffled at the under response the day before in Lahore to the terrorist suicide bomber who killed 35 innocent Paksitani Muslim men, women, and children, serious wounding scores more, around 180 wounded.

Just look at the under response of condolings of the many Pakistan innocent Muslim dead killed as in murdered by a Paksitani terrorist suicide bomber vs. the drivel on this Thread dealing with two criminals who shot up Mr. Davis windshield and would have killed him had he not defended himself. I am sure the family of dead robbers regret their deaths but that does not change the fact they were illiegally carrying guns and were thieves trying to do a second robbery in the same single day in Lahore, first robbery had already been carried out by these same two robbers against a Pakistani gentleman there in Lahore, exact same day.


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## pakdefender

The guy is in police remand and is being interogated , the Judge gave the remand on Friday for 6 days so coming week he'll be back in court and the proceedings will be done against him , till now there is no proof that he can claim diplomatic imunity and diplomatic imunity is for minor things like a traffic voilation or a car scraping another car etc not for homicide.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> I agree no one should malign the honored dead.



I agree. 


> Thus I remain baffled at the under response the day before in Lahore to the terrorist suicide bomber who killed 35 innocent Paksitani Muslim men, women, and children, serious wounding scores more, around 180 wounded.



You are mixing two different events.



> Just look at the under response of condolings of the many Pakistan innocent Muslim dead killed as in murdered by a Paksitani terrorist suicide bomber vs. the drivel on this Thread dealing with two criminals who shot up Mr. Davis windshield and would have killed him had he not defended himself. I am sure the family of dead robbers regret their deaths but that does not change the fact they were illiegally carrying guns and were thieves trying to do a second robbery in the same single day in Lahore, first robbery had already been carried out by these same two robbers against a Pakistani gentleman there in Lahore, exact same day.



*This is not about American or Pakistani or Muslim or Christian its about a guy involved in an incident and is under custody of law.*


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## Thomas

pakdefender said:


> The guy is in police remand and is being interogated , the Judge gave the remand on Friday for 6 days so coming week he'll be back in court and the proceedings will be done against him , till now there is no proof that he can claim diplomatic imunity and diplomatic imunity is for minor things like a traffic voilation or a car scraping another car etc not for homicide.




only if his country waives it. generally in times past when people have been killed by diplomats such as in accidents it has been waived, But not always.

Injury and death

The Romanian chargé d'affaires in Singapore, Silviu Ionescu, was allegedly behind a drunk-driving hit-and-run accident in December 2009 that resulted in the death of a 30 year old man and seriously injured two others. He left Singapore for Romania three days after the accident. The Romanian foreign ministry suspended Ionescu from his post. A coroner's inquiry in Singapore, which included testimony by the Romanian embassy driver, concluded with the coroner holding Ionescu solely responsible for the accident. An Interpol Red Notice was subsequently issued for his arrest and possible extradition notwithstanding the fact that Romania had not waived his diplomatic immunity and had commenced criminal proceedings against him in Romania. The Singapore government argued that by reason of Article 39(2) of the Vienna Convention, Ionescu was no longer protected by diplomatic immunity.

The deputy ambassador of the Republic of Georgia to the United States, Gueorgui Makharadze, caused an accident in January 1997 that injured four people and killed a sixteen-year-old girl. He was found to have a blood-alcohol level of 0.15%, but was released from custody because he was a diplomat. The U.S. government asked the Georgian government to waive his immunity, which they did and Makharadze was tried and convicted of manslaughter by the U.S. and sentenced to seven to twenty-one years in prison. However after serving three years of his sentence, he was returned to his home country where he spent two more years in jail before being paroled.

An American Marine serving his embassy in Bucharest, Romania, collided with a taxi and killed the popular Romanian musician Teo Peter on December 3, 2004. Christopher Van Goethem, allegedly drunk, did not obey a traffic signal to stop, which resulted in the collision of his Ford Expedition with the taxi the rock star was travelling in. Van Goethem's blood alcohol content was estimated at 0.09% from a breathalyser test, but he refused to give a blood sample for further testing and left for Germany before charges could be filed in Romania. The Romanian government requested the American government lift his immunity, which it has refused to do. In a court-martial, he was acquitted of manslaughter and adultery but was convicted of obstruction of justice and making false statements.

A Russian diplomat accredited to Ottawa, Canada, drove his car into two pedestrians on a quiet residential street in January 2001, killing one and seriously injuring the other. Andrei Knyazev had previously been stopped by Ottawa police on two separate occasions on suspicion of impaired driving. The Canadian government requested that Russia waive the diplomat's immunity, although this request was refused. Knyazev was subsequently prosecuted in Russia for involuntary manslaughter, and sentenced to four years in prison. His appeal of the sentence was denied and he served time in a penal colony.

An American diplomat, Consul General Douglas Kent, stationed in Vladivostok, Russia, was involved in a car accident on October 27, 1998, that left a young man, Alexander Kashin, crippled. Kent was not prosecuted in a U.S. court. Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, diplomatic immunity does not apply to civil actions relating to vehicular accidents. However, on 10 August 2006, a U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that since he was using his own vehicle for consular purposes, Kent may not be sued civilly.

The Burmese ambassador in Sri Lanka in 1979 shot his wife as she got out of the car after seeing a player in a night-club band of whom she was enamoured. As recalled by Gerald Hensley, then Vice-Dean of the Diplomatic Corps in Sri Lanka; Hensley was based in Singapore and accredited from New Zealand as High Commissioner to Sri Lanka as well: The next morning the neighbours in Cinnamon Gardens (Colombo) were surprised to see the ambassador stacking wood on the back lawn and, connoisseurs of cremation, quickly grasped that he was building a pyre. When the police were called the ambassador opened the metal front gates just enough to say that there was no trouble and to remind them that his house was Burmese territory. Then he went back to work. The houses around his long back garden were now alive with fascinated spectators as he emerged with the body of his wife, placed it on the pyre and set it alight. He was well connected at home but after an awkward interval he was recalled.


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## American Eagle

The US Ambassador to Pakistan knows up from down as head of all official Americans inside Paksitan currently.

The US Ambassador knows full well that Mr. Davis has diplomatic protection status; cannot be jailed under local, national laws, but has rights and privileges that do not avoid investigation but which control the circumstances of where and how Mr. Davis is handled while the attack against and on Mr. Davis by two thieves is fully and completely investigated.

Please remember no two cities inside Pakistan have the same gun laws on their books. These are parochial things, and we all know from our first hand years inside Pakistan what an armed camp it is for so many Pakistanis who choose to and of necessity these days need to arm and protect themselves.

Self defense from already known armed crooks/thieves who show hostile, death causing actions against you...shots through your windshield fired into Mr. Davis venhcile...are prima facia evidence he was violently attacked.


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## American Eagle

> If the rear windshield was completely shattered by firing as you claim, how come the front windshield didn't shatter with the impact of the bullets, it shows more than five bullet holes in it, yet it only cracked and didn't shatter. Are you going to claim that Honda Motors uses different quality glass material for the front and rear windshields?



Yes, in fact the windshield is shatter proof safety glass whereas the rear window glass is a different, lower quality of glass. Yep, that is a fact, not just in the case of Honda but also for most all cars.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Self defense from already known armed crooks/thieves who show hostile, death causing actions against you...shots through your windshield fired into Mr. Davis venhcile...are prima facia evidence he was violently attacked.



You have any proof? 

Mr Davis is more likely be a terrorist or a rogue agent than the innocent dead guys. Maligning the dead with out due court proceeding is immoral.


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## Mansanpk2009

Any wrong move in the matter of Davis by our Government would trigger the revolution that is knocking our doors

This is the Anthem "Tarana" of a new revolution in Pakistan

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## logic

Some heads should roll after this incident.

Hussain Haqqani Rehman Malik you are directly responsible for this guy carrying weapon.

Both of them should be investigated at the *GHQ* by the top brass.


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## VCheng

^^^ Some heads WILL roll, but only later, and not in the order or manner that you describe.

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## American Eagle

The statements and petitions by the US Ambassador to Pakistan today on behalf of Raymond Davis noting he has a valid US Diplomatic Passport with valid Paksitan VISA that expires in mid-2012 are the law and facts as to who Mr. Davis is.

The US Ambassador, a life long career senior diplomat, knows the laws and knows his job and knows who Mr. Davis is.

You may again want to re-look at and review in this Thread postings # 62; 76; 241; and 242.

The several bullet holes shot into Mr. Davis windshield came from the shootist robbers, who are part and parcel of the terrorism atmopshere inside Pakistan today.

The good people of Pakistan are not well served by avoiding the facts and the truth here.

Meanwhile, I again note the small number of responses to the Pakistani suicide bombers attack killing 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children there in Lahore the day before the failed robbery shooting attack on Mr. Davis, where upwards of 180 more innocent Pakistani men, women, and children were wounded.

Pakistan and the US are allies in the war on terrorism. Try joining the Paksitani military service or get a job teaching, building, helping those less fortunate inside Pakistan and prove your loyalty to the nation of Pakistan.


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## logic

VCheng said:


> ^^^ Some heads WILL roll, but only later, and not in the order or manner that you describe.



Any suggestion as to how such investigation be carried?


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## tanveerpower

Shame on Punjab Police. Shame on the Government of Pakistan.

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## fida jan

RescueRanger said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Did you claim you are Ex-Spec Ops and you don't even know Immediate Action Drills for Countering Vehicle Ambush?
> 
> YouTube - Vehicle Counterambush Drill - Windshield Shooting



my god!!, american eagle must be feeling so ashamed right now for trying so hard to make sense, still failing miserably...not cool


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## American Eagle

I am rather satisfied with telling the truth here of late. Have gotten quite a few private e-mails agreeing with and complimenting using the obvious facts. Have also gotten two overseas approving phone calls, which surprised me, from folks I have known for years, native Pakistanis, still living there in Pakistan today.


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## VCheng

logic said:


> Any suggestion as to how such investigation be carried?



Yes, but that, as they say, is a whole another discussion!


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Quite the contrary, Mr. Davis fired in self defense and saved his own life thereby.



A determination that should be left up to the courts, hence investigation is necessary and a subsequent trial.

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## Awesome

fida jan said:


> my god!!, american eagle must be feeling so ashamed right now for trying so hard to make sense, still failing miserably...not cool


Please do not make this personal, he has his point of view, you have yours, talk on topic, not about each other.

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## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> Please remember no two cities inside Pakistan have the same gun laws on their books



Your above statement is as true as your statement about shots being fired into the windshield from the outside. Here, let me enlighten you: There is only one gun law in Pakistan and it's called the "Pakistan Arms Ordinance, 1965", which extends to the whole of Pakistan, except the Tribal Areas (where gun laws don't apply). Here's the link [see Section 1(2)]: 

http://www.pap.gov.pk/uploads/acts/190.html



> ...shots through your windshield fired into Mr. Davis venhcile...are prima facia evidence he was violently attacked.



You're being more loyal than the king. Raymond Davis is not even claiming that shots were fired at him. He has admitted before the police and the court that he fired shots from inside his vehicle in self-defence because he felt that he was "about to be shot". He's claiming that one of the motorcyclists "pulled his gun on me" and he took pre-emptive action. He's not claiming that he was shot at. Ask Ray when he gets out. His contact details are on his website.

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## fida jan

American Eagle said:


> I am rather satisfied with telling the truth here of late. Have gotten quite a few private e-mails agreeing with and complimenting using the obvious facts. Have also gotten two overseas approving phone calls, which surprised me, from folks I have known for years, native Pakistanis, still living there in Pakistan today.



well, atleast you have found popularity one way or another, with your zillion posts here...

hope u r busted when court finds the guy guilty, then you will shout, ohh pakistan justice is fake... and start cry again

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## American Eagle

*LAHORE DAILY TIMES NEWSPAPER*

Sunday, January 30, 2011
*

US demands release of diplomat held in Pakistan*

* Embassy says detained American is diplomat who qualifies for immunity from prosecution and was illegally detained

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD/LAHORE: The United States has called for the immediate release of an American diplomat charged with murdering two civilians and possessing an illegal weapon, claiming that Pakistani authorities have detained the diplomat unlawfully and in violation of international law and he, therefore, be freed from the illegal detention.

Contrary to the claims of investigators that the under-investigation American involved in the murder of two civilians in Lahore was in Pakistan on a visit visa and not on a diplomatic assignment, the US Embassy maintained that &#8220;the diplomat, assigned to the US Embassy in Islamabad, had a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012&#8221;. 

&#8220;He is a diplomat who qualifies for immunity from prosecution and was illegally detained,&#8221; the embassy asserted. It, however, refrained from disclosing the real name of the accused &#8220;and the only name released by the Lahore Police, which is Raymond Davis, remains his sole identity&#8221;. 

Nevertheless, the White House spokesperson had, while addressing the media in Washington on the day of the incident, confirmed that it was not his real name and his real identity was being withheld for security reasons. 

When asked, local police said that they had not been given any documentary evidence to prove anything in this regard.

&#8220;On January 27, the diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles. The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area,&#8221; the US embassy claimed. 

Police officials in Lahore, however, remained silent on the background of the killed youths, claiming that so far no such facts had come to their notice.

The embassy&#8217;s handout further said &#8220;When detained, the US diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status with either the US Consulate General in Lahore or the US Embassy in Islamabad. Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory.&#8221;

The police refused to accept this as factual and told this scribe, &#8220;When they tried to confirm the credentials of the arrested American, another vehicle came on the scene claiming to be from the American Consulate. After a heated debate with the police officials, the driver of that vehicle tried to rush out of the crowd and ran over another innocent biker.&#8221; 

The US embassy&#8217;s handout stated, &#8220;We regret that this incident resulted in loss of life.&#8221;

&#8220;We greatly value the cooperation and partnership between Pakistan and the United States, which is vital to the interests of both the countries. The US Embassy is committed to working closely with the Pakistani government to secure the immediate release of the diplomat, as required under Pakistani and the international law,&#8221; it concluded.


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## pakdefender

*Pakistan rebuffs call for US gunmans quick release*
*ISLAMABAD: In a clear about-turn on the status of the American charged with murder of two motorcyclists in Lahore, the United States on Saturday claimed that the accused was a diplomat and demanded his immediate release.*

The diplomat, assigned to the US Embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012, a terse statement by the embassy said.

It went on to accuse Islamabad of being in violation of the Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations. The Foreign Office reacted sharply to the embassy statement, counselling respect for the legal course.

The exchange was a pointer to an evolving diplomatic crisis between Islamabad and Washington.

*The latest American statement was indubitably different from the one released by the embassy on Friday describing the accused Raymond Davis as a staff member of the US Consulate General in Lahore, which though ambiguous, but was clearly short of declaring him as a diplomat.*

More importantly, the Friday statement had come at a time when media was discussing the status of the accused and was taken by many as a corroboration of the claims that Davis wasnt a diplomat and hence had no diplomatic immunity.

The latest (Saturday) media release came a day after hectic diplomatic activity apparently failed to yield any result.

*The Foreign Office looks to have also hardened its stance on the matter. Spokesman Abdul Basit called for respecting the legal process.

This matter is sub judice and the legal process should be respected, he emphasised in a message evidently directed at the Americans.*

Mr Davis is being described by the American media as a security contractor from a Florida-based firm, Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC. 

That Foreign Office and the US embassy were not on the same page on the issue of status of the accused was obvious from an *FO press release that mentioned Davis as a US functionary, and not a diplomat.*

The latest U-turn in American position clearly fits in with the business principles of Hyperion Protective Consultants.Their website says that the personnel provided to the customer (US State Department in this case) are hired as the customers employees. As such the legal liabilities reside with the business contracting the service.

The US embassy statement set aside all diplomatese and not only accused the host government of unlawfully detaining its diplomat, but criticised the remand of the accused given by a judicial magistrate.

Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory, the embassy statement noted.

Pakistan rebuffs call for US gunmans quick release | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

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## fida jan

every thing he is finding is just clamied by americans and not established facts 

find his diplomatic passport and rest the case..

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## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> The good people of Pakistan are not well served by avoiding the facts and the truth here.



And the good people of the United States are not served by you coming here and stubbornly denying photographic and video evidence that flies in the face of your interpretation of events.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> The statements and petitions by the US Ambassador to Pakistan today on behalf of Raymond Davis noting he *has a valid US Diplomatic Passport with valid Paksitan VISA* that expires in mid-2012 are the law and facts as to who Mr. Davis is.



A case that the Pakistan government has not verified. There is a diplomatic visa and non-diplomatic visa assigned to embassy staff... What type of visa was he given? Does that visa grants him immunity? There is also a distinction between immunity from prosecution and immunity from sentencing... According to type of diplomatic grant.

Furthermore there is the issue of where immunity is valid. For a crime committed on Pakistani soil, it may fall under the purview of the Pakistani law.

Futhermore a quote from wiki:
Passport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Issued to diplomats for work-related travel, and to accompanying dependents. A*lthough most diplomats with diplomatic immunity carry diplomatic passports, having a diplomatic passport is not the equivalent of having diplomatic immunity*. *A grant of diplomatic status, a privilege of which is diplomatic immunity, has to come from the government of the country in relation to which diplomatic status is claimed*. Also, having a diplomatic passport does not mean visa-free travel. *A holder of a diplomatic passport usually has to obtain a diplomatic visa*, even if a holder of an ordinary passport may enter a country visa-free or may obtain a visa on arrival.



Futhermore let me quote Article 38 (2) of the Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic Relations:
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf


> 2.*Other members of the staff of the mission and private servants who are nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State shall enjoy privileges and immunities only to the extent
> admitted by the receiving State*. However, the receiving State must exercise its jurisdiction over those persons in such a manner as not to interfere unduly with the performance of the functions of the mission.



So definitely immunity does not apply upon the other Pakistani driver and must be handed over to Pakistanis.

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## VCheng

*I think that ALL should respect a sub judice case and moderate their comments.*

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## Shameel

To American Eagle:

This is what happens when you fire through a windshield with a pistol from inside the vehicle:

YouTube - Windshield Shoot 4: Glock 27

The windshield does not shatter. The holes and the "spider cracks" in the above test are similar to those of Raymond's windshield.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Ok so what is going on with the driver that ran over the man on the motor cycle??? Who and where is he? Why has he not been handed over?
What jurisdiction does the consulate have to deny his apprehension considering he is pakistani and non-diplomat?
How does the Chacha jee intend to protect him?


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## fida jan

where is s90 btw and his genius analysis


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## Shameel

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Ok so what is going on with the driver that ran over the man on the motor cycle??? Who and where is he? Why has he not been handed over?
> What jurisdiction does the consulate have to deny his apprehension considering he is pakistani and non-diplomat?
> How does the Chacha jee intend to protect him?




They are probably not handing him over because he, too, is an American. These SUVs with blacked out windows and non-diplomatic number plates are usually driven by American Blackwater types. I've seen them because their front windows are not blacked out. They will never put a Pakistani in them because only they are trained in vehicle ambush countermeasures. My bet is that the second vehicle, which killed Obaid-ur-Rehman, was also driven by an American, not a Pakistani.

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## Developereo

Is there any proof that these two guys were robbers? Were they involved in crime previously?

I am not talking about a statement from the US embassy, but actual police confirmation.

It still does not prove Mr. Davis' claims that his life was under threat, but would clearly lend him a favorable slant.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

I think this is not going to end well.
The driver of the other vehicles must be interviewed if he a diplomat and if not, must be investigated.
The refusal to allow such a think will only hurt US interest.
That being said, justice must be done based on facts 
regardless of who they favor.


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## Shameel

fida jan said:


> find his diplomatic passport and rest the case..



Even THAT won't rest the case. Here's why:

Your diplomatic status must be recognized by the host country. This is done in two ways:

(i) Host country issues diplomatic visa; and
(ii) Host country issues a diplomatic ID card. 

A Pakistani diplomat in Mexico will not be a diplomat in the U.S.A. just beceause he's carrying a diplomatic passport and applies for a visitor visa so his children can visit Disneyland in LA. Likewise, an American diplomat in India will not be a diplomat in Pakistan if he visits Pakistan on a visitor visa. 

In Raymond Allen Davis's case, he may have a diplomatic passport but, according to Pakistan's foreign office, he was not issued with a diplomatic visa or diplomatic ID. In fact, the US Embassy in Pakistan expressly asked the Pakistani Foreign Office for a non-diplomatic ID card for him.

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## American Eagle

Nope, second driver is a Pakistani national as reported in the media inside Pakistan.

Regarding a windshield bullet hole photo *not from the attack on Mr. Davis*, that is not the pattern of the photo of shots fired INTO his windshield. You are correct that shots fired into a safety glass windshield do not shatter it. Because front windshield are have duty safety glass.

But when the bullets pass out through the rear window that glass does explode and shatter into small shards. Not safety class of the type the front windshield is made of.

See this Thread Postings # 241 and 242 for windshield damages from several bullets fired INTO Mr. Davis windshield.

A single driver in traffic cannot fire from vehicle. He is too busy just driving the vehicle. 

Training films put up on this Thread are of vehicles with miltiple occupants so that driver drives and shooter shoots leaning out of the window. That is all.

There are also pictures of two and three men in a single car getting out of the car and firing from behind the trunk forward around the car. That is all.


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## niaz

Before all of us get carried away in blind hate of the Americans. Let me recount what happened in UK in front of my eyes 27 years back.

There was a peaceful demonstration in front of the Libyan Embassy by Libyan Nation Front opposed to Col Qaddafi. UK Police were on duty to keep the peace. Shots were fired from inside the Libyan Embassy and a police woman called Yvonne Fletcher died as a result. This happened in the St James Square, London. My office was at 3, St James Square; we came out when we heard the shots and I saw PC Yvonne Fletcher lying dead. Despite the furore in the British media, the said diplomat was allowed to go free as diplomatic immunity was claimed. This was the time when Libya was considered an international pariah. Only thing that happened was that Libyan Embassy was closed and reopened 3 years later at a different location.

On a personal note; knowing the Law& Order condition in Pakistan, if I was in his place and found a motorbike rider following me, I would do the same. For Heaven&#8217;s Sake! Even the Pak Army generals are being gunned down and leaders such as BB assassinated. Americans are the choicest targets of the TTP and Al-Qaida. If I think I am being followed, you expect me sit quietly and be shot! You might but I wouldn&#8217;t.

Rather this than have a US diplomat shot. Best thing to do is to ask for compensation. As long as we are part of the International community, we have to follow diplomatic protocol. Suppose if a Pakistani diplomat is being followed by a Shiv Sena thug in Delhi, would you condemn him as much as you are doing in this case. Remember diplomats are immune from prosecution in host country and this also applies to Pakistani diplomats in the US as well as in India.

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## American Eagle

> In Raymond Allen Davis's case, he may have a diplomatic passport but, according to Pakistan's foreign office, he was not issued with a diplomatic visa or diplomatic ID. In fact, the US Embassy in Pakistan expressly asked the Pakistani Foreign Office for a non-diplomatic ID card for him.



Untrue.

The US Ambassador says Mr. Davis has a Paksitani issued Visa which expires in late 2012 together with his US Diplomatic Passport. 

Why do people keep ignoring the facts and keep making up all this malarky? It is meaningless and does not create any credibility for folks who brag on being Pakistani but then speak in an untruthful and biased manner despite the facts of record thus far.

Shame. Mr. Davis bravely defended himself and rightly so from crooks, robbers, with a public history of crime even earlier that same day.

Here is the latest story from the Karachi DAWN which anyone can verify by going to:

www.dawn.com



> ISLAMABAD: In a clear about-turn on the status of the American charged with murder of two motorcyclists in Lahore, the United States on Saturday claimed that the accused was a diplomat and demanded his immediate release.
> 
> &#8220;The diplomat, assigned to the US Embassy in Islamabad, has a US diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012,&#8221; a terse statement by the embassy said.
> 
> It went on to accuse Islamabad of being in violation of the Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations. The Foreign Office reacted sharply to the embassy statement, counselling respect for the legal course.
> 
> The exchange was a pointer to an evolving diplomatic crisis between Islamabad and Washington.
> 
> The latest American statement was indubitably different from the one released by the embassy on Friday describing the accused Raymond Davis as &#8220;a staff member of the US Consulate General in Lahore&#8221;, which though ambiguous, but was clearly short of declaring him as a diplomat.
> 
> More importantly, the Friday statement had come at a time when media was discussing the status of the accused and was taken by many as a corroboration of the claims that Davis wasn&#8217;t a diplomat and hence had no diplomatic immunity.
> 
> The latest (Saturday) media release came a day after hectic diplomatic activity apparently failed to yield any result.
> 
> The Foreign Office looks to have also hardened its stance on the matter. Spokesman Abdul Basit called for respecting the legal process.
> 
> &#8220;This matter is sub judice and the legal process should be respected,&#8221; he emphasised in a message evidently directed at the Americans.
> 
> Mr Davis is being described by the American media as a security contractor from a Florida-based firm, Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC.
> 
> That Foreign Office and the US embassy were not on the same page on the issue of status of the accused was obvious from an FO press release that mentioned Davis as a US &#8216;functionary&#8217;, and not a diplomat.
> 
> The latest U-turn in American position clearly fits in with the business principles of Hyperion Protective Consultants.
> 
> Their website says that the personnel provided to the customer (US State Department in this case) are hired as the customer&#8217;s employees. As such the &#8220;legal liabilities reside with the business contracting the service&#8221;.
> 
> The US embassy statement set aside all diplomatese and not only accused the host government of &#8216;unlawfully detaining&#8217; its &#8216;diplomat&#8217;, but criticised the remand of the accused given by a judicial magistrate.
> 
> &#8220;Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory,&#8221; the embassy statement noted.


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## Developereo

American Eagle said:


> The US Ambassador says Mr. Davis has a Paksitani issued Visa which expires in late 2012 together with his US Diplomatic Passport.



Was it a diplomatic visa, or just a normal tourist/business visa?



American Eagle said:


> Why do people keep ignoring the facts and keep making up all this malarky?



You tell us.

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## VelocuR

*How about closed this thread til court decision??*


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## fida jan

niaz said:


> On a personal note; knowing the Law& Order condition in Pakistan, if I was in his place and found a motorbike rider following me, I would do the same. For Heaven&#8217;s Sake! Even the Pak Army generals are being gunned down and leaders such as BB assassinated. Americans are the choicest targets of the TTP and Al-Qaida. If I think I am being followed, you expect me sit quietly and be shot! You might but I wouldn&#8217;t.



please dont try to compare a common american to a fully trained american soldier, who owns a security company and has been working for CIA, the guy is professional.., no common tourist keeps illegal weapons and too shooting the men multiple times and head shot cause death in a self defence... before this guy has murder case on him and been travelling pakistan multiple time, he planted false evidence and took photos just what the professionals do to change the crime scene

pakistan is not his country, so why he travelled nine times in 2 years when he knew that its not safe and esp hanging around in 'dangerous plac'??


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## American Eagle

Sohni Dharti said:


> Was it a diplomatic visa, or just a normal tourist/business visa?
> 
> 
> 
> You tell us.



A Pakistani Diplomatic Visa is onMr. Davis's US Diplomatic Passport which expires in 2012. That was already covered by the statement from the US Ambassador.

Davis's diplomatic passport *accredits him *at the US Embassy in Islamabad to the Government of Pakistan, which GOP issued VISA to Mr. Davis on his Diplomatic Passport expires during 2012.

Tourist and business visas only go on routine Passports, not on Diplomatic Passports. We are again beyond reason and sense in trying to find or create a non-existant conspiracy against a US diplomat who merely defended himself from gun wielding Paksitani crooks whose thievery earlier the same day was perpetrated on a Paksitani man who they robbed of money and other items.

For those in Lahore you can go look up the Lahore Police Report on the deceased crooks vs. the report of theft by them on him filed by the offended Pakistani man who was robbed.


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## American Eagle

Here we go again with false statements and speculations.

Mr. Davis was a US Dept. of State employee as a contract hired with full defense of his rights as a State employee built into his contract, which is how our US government is cutting costs by passing overhead and pension fund costs to the companies contracted with. But the company staff become legally literally US State Dept. employees via their contract hire and are as much diplomats as any other careers US Consular Service in house employees. Is that so hard to understand?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

thomas do u believe david did nothing wrong? .


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## Developereo

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> thomas do u believe david the fag did nothing wrong? ur sick.



Why are you needlessly flame-baiting?
Will this advance the discussion in any way?



American Eagle said:


> Here we go again with false statements and speculations.
> 
> Mr. Davis was a US Dept. of State employee as a contract hired with full defense of his rights as a State employee built into his contract, which is how our US government is cutting costs by passing overhead and pension fund costs to the companies contracted with. But the company staff become *legally literally US State Dept. employees *via their contract hire and are as much diplomats as any other careers US Consular Service in house employees. Is that so hard to understand?



Speaking of false statements, your statements are self-contradictory.

You say the US govt. wants to cut costs by using contractors instead of direct employees. Then you say that they become State Dept. employees. That is 100% false. Under US employment law, a contractor is not an employee.

So Davis is not an employee of the US State Dept. He may have been issued a diplomatic passport, but he is not a government employee. He is a private individual providing services under contract for the US govt.

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## ashok321

Sohni Dharti said:


> Why are you needlessly flame-baiting?
> Will this advance the discussion in any way?
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of false statements, your statements are self-contradictory.
> 
> You say the US govt. wants to cut costs by using contractors instead of direct employees. Then you say that they become State Dept. employees. That is 100% false. Under US employment law, a contractor is not an employee.
> 
> So Davis is not an employee of the US State Dept. He may have been issued a diplomatic passport, but he is not a government employee. He is a private individual providing services under contract for the US govt.




Contractors are not issued diplomatic passports.....either he is one (diplomat) or a covert agent, working in the guise of contractual agreement.

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## Roybot

Is it true that the two guys killed had a mobile phone tracker and wireless phones on them?

This seems more like a shoot out between two intelligence agencies now. If it was two common Pakistanis killed, this incident would have died down by now.

However the FIR lodged about the mugging , and them mobile phones found on the deceased bodies makes it seem like they really were robbers. One can only speculate.


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## ashok321

Here is how the things will end up in Pakistan:

Davis would be US bound (Pakistan cant keep white American down for long), and Pakistan would save its face by extracting some money for deceased robbers.


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## Roybot

ashok321 said:


> Here is how the things will end up in Pakistan:
> 
> Davis would be US bound (Pakistan cant keep *white American* down for long), and Pakistan would save its face by extracting some money for deceased robbers.



Do you really have to say "White" American. You would surely chuck a hissy fit if someone called you brown/black/caramel Indian. Grow up


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## fida jan

roy_gourav said:


> Do you really have to say "White" American. You would surely chuck a hissy fit if someone called you brown/black/caramel Indian. Grow up



dont they(aussie) say...


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## ashok321

roy_gourav said:


> Do you really have to say "White" American. You would surely chuck a hissy fit if someone called you brown/black/caramel Indian. Grow up



They care for thier own (white people) five US citizens of Pakistani origin are still lying in Pakistani jail - And US gives damn....

Same thing happened in lebanon during terry whites abduction along with 3 more americans (one of which was Indian) They did not release Indian but other white people got through - during eighties....

It is good thing that they care for thier own race - our country would not come so close....


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## American Eagle

You misunderstand me.

Mr. Davis by virtue of being a contracted company provided employee is by US law then treated for liability purposes as an employee of the US Department of State, hence he has a Diplomatic Passport, a Pakitani Diplomat's VISA until mid-2012.

I helped develop for the US Dept. of Veterans Affairs the same concept and practice for our VA Hospital system for contract hires back in the 1980s, which labor unions opposed.

*You pay the company* who provides the contract hiree roughly 128% to 135% of base salary as negotiated so that the benefits and pension package are costs of the providng company and not of the US Dept. of State. 

At law Mr. Davis per conract with and through his employing company which in turn has "the personnel" contact with the US Dept. of State... is treated as an employee in terms of legal liabilty of and by the US State Dept....the same as if Mr. Davis was actually a US careerist Foreign Service Officer or a US Consular Staffer. This is the legal basis on which Mr. Davis as an employee of his company, which company, not Mr. Davis directly, has the professional services contract with State. 

I hope this better explains the simple fact that the State Dept. has all legal liability for the employee(s) provided by the company which furnishes the workers to State to do the job. This gives all private company furnished personnel legally Diplomatic Status with State as State is liable for them the same as any other careerist State employee when it comes to legal or tort liability.


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## Roybot

fida jan said:


> dont they(aussie) say...



No they don't, the sane educated ones dont.



ashok321 said:


> They care for thier own (white people) five US citizens of Pakistani origin are still lying in Pakistani jail - And US gives damn....
> 
> Same thing happened in lebanon during terry whites abduction along with 3 more americans (one of which was Indian) They did not release Indian but other white people got through - during eighties....
> 
> *It is good thing that they care for thier own race - our country would not come so close*....



They will care about you, if you care about them as simple as that. If you live in America and be hostile towards America and its interest why should they give a hoot about you. Same goes for the 5 so called "American" terrorists locked in Pakistani prison.

And if they only cared about the "white" Americans, they would have given up the Pakistani driver(of the 4x4 which killed the cyclist) by now. Pretty pathetic how you brought the race card into this issue.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> They care for thier own (white people) five US citizens of Pakistani origin are still lying in Pakistani jail - And US gives damn....
> 
> Same thing happened in lebanon during terry whites abduction along with 3 more americans (one of which was Indian) They did not release Indian but other white people got through - during eighties....
> 
> It is good thing that they care for thier own race - our country would not come so close....



Bullshyt....only 1 of them is a Pakistani american rest r egyptian,black n some other guy!

And yeah if GOP takes a stand usa cant do jack abt it..


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## ashok321

roy_gourav said:


> No they don't, the sane educated ones dont.
> 
> 
> 
> They will care about you, if you care about them as simple as that. If you live in America and be hostile towards America and its interest why should they give a hoot about you. Same goes for the 5 so called "American" terrorists locked in Pakistani prison.
> 
> And if they only cared about the "white" Americans, they would have given up the Pakistani driver(of the 4x4 which killed the cyclist) by now. Pretty pathetic how you brought the race card into this issue.




Why they did not care about Indian doc (brown) who was also a hostage in Lebanon?


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## ashok321

_And yeah if GOP takes a stand usa cant do jack abt it.._

Why GOP can not take a stand on drones? You wanna fight superpower? you cant...


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## Roybot

ashok321 said:


> Why they did not care about Indian doc (brown) who was also a hostage in Lebanon?



I don't know anything about this Lebanon crisis so i can't comment on that. I would give a logical reason if I knew anything about it or found anything on the internet. Anyways lets not derail this thread anymore.
======================================================
If you were talking about Terry Waite, then as you can see in this wiki link there were a lot of "white" Americans killed in those crisis as well. Its not like they saved all the "white" Americans and left the others there on purpose. Besides I couldn't find the name of an Indian doctor in the list anyways.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_hostage_crisis


Lets stop this unnecessary discussion now.


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## ashok321

roy_gourav said:


> I don't know anything about this Lebanon crisis so i can't comment on that. I would give a logical reason if I knew anything about it or found anything on the internet. Anyways lets not derail this thread anymore.



Ignorance is no defense!

Silence means guilt.


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## Roybot

ashok321 said:


> Ignorance is no defense!
> 
> Silence means guilt.



Yeah Einstein only if you wrote "Terry Waite" instead of "Terry White"


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## ashok321

roy_gourav said:


> Yeah Einstein only if you wrote "Terry Waite" instead of "Terry White"



Its typo, beside I dont do wiki stuff like you, it came right from my mind, something that happened almost 3 decades away....

Next time dont mess with people unnecessary!


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## Roybot

ashok321 said:


> Its typo, beside I dont do wiki stuff like you, it came right from my mind, something that happened almost 3 decades away....
> 
> Next time dont mess with people unnecessary!



Oh pardon me for being born in late 80's. Guess you were trying too hard to prove the whiteness of "Terry White" which explains the typo.

Next time don't be an ungrateful sod, living in America and spewing against America by pulling out the race card oh so conveniently, when you are out of sensible arguments, given that you had any.

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## ashok321

roy_gourav said:


> Oh pardon me for being born in late 80's. Guess you were trying too hard to prove the whiteness of "Terry White" which explains the typo.
> 
> Next time don't be an ungrateful sod, living in America and spewing against America by pulling out the race card oh so conveniently, when you are out of sensible arguments, given that had any.




Calling a spade a spade is a proverb - keep it handy - just in case, when diplomacy gives up on you.

Besides, whats YR problem if one is outspoken and not sugar coated servile earthling ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> Why GOP can not take a stand on drones? You wanna fight superpower? you cant...



Did u ever wonder who provides the ground intel for drone strikes?ISI......The strikes r done with the permission of GoP.............No but we sure can block the supplies n starve them in afghanistan...........remember the recent past when just after 10 days of blockade they started begging n apologizing?

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## ashok321

> The strikes r done with the permission of GoP...........



No, they dont need Pakistan´s permission to hurl missiles on terrorists.
Musharaf requested Pakistani emblem on drones, but even that was refused. Then there is-was petition against drones in Pakistan´s high court.
You should know more than that!


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## American Eagle

A return to the Stone Ages waits for Pakistan the day the US stops supplying and suporting the war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Clearly you don't realize that some of the supplies being bought into Pakistan are FOR and remain IN Pakistan for the Pakistan miliary to use.


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## ashok321

gotta go, check you guys tommorow.......


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ashok321 said:


> No, they dont need Pakistan´s permission to hurl missiles on terrorists.
> Musharaf requested Pakistani emblem on drones, but even that was refused. Then there is-was petition against drones in Pakistan´s high court.
> You should know more than that!



And the drones flying frm shamsi air base? the ground intel>?do u think drones fly and suddenly pick up targets in houses or pick up trucks?

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Poor Solomon must be feeling left out of this thread! R.I.P

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## Awesome

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Poor Solomon must be feeling left out of this thread! R.I.P


That is unnecessarily a provocation. Discuss the issue at hand, nothing else.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> A Pakistani Diplomatic Visa is onMr. Davis's US Diplomatic Passport which expires in 2012. That was already covered by the statement from the US Ambassador.
> 
> Davis's diplomatic passport *accredits him *at the US Embassy in Islamabad to the Government of Pakistan, which GOP issued VISA to Mr. Davis on his Diplomatic Passport expires during 2012.
> 
> Tourist and business visas only go on routine Passports, not on Diplomatic Passports. We are again beyond reason and sense in trying to find or create a non-existant conspiracy against a US diplomat who merely defended himself from gun wielding Paksitani crooks whose thievery earlier the same day was perpetrated on a Paksitani man who they robbed of money and other items.
> 
> For those in Lahore you can go look up the Lahore Police Report on the deceased crooks vs. the report of theft by them on him filed by the offended Pakistani man who was robbed.


As I pointed out in post #750, with the use of links, the immunity is not activated till Pakistan grants him immunity under Gratis Visa of diplomats. Diplomats MAY enter Pakistan through regular visa's. Diplomatic Passport only recognizes him as USG personnel, but does not entitle him diplomatic rights without the Gratis Visa of diplomats.

Visa Policy in Pakistan

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## TruthSeeker

Obviously the dirty American should be taken from jail and hanged from the nearest telephone pole! He was stupid for thinking that he could drive his car, alone, in Lahore, without the protection of an Abrams tank. He was stupid!! How could he think that an American could be safe anywhere on the streets of Pakistan??? Obviously the hatred of Pakistanis is waaaaaay too much for any American to venture out of his walled compound. For his sheer stupidity he should be shot in his jail cell, by his police guards. Just like Taseer ......

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> A return to the Stone Ages waits for Pakistan the day the US stops supplying and suporting the war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> Clearly you don't realize that some of the supplies being bought into Pakistan are FOR and remain IN Pakistan for the Pakistan miliary to use.


Been there done that, eh? Other than stopping aid, we lived through 10 years of US imposed international sanctions.

The issue here is primarily of the distrust with the Americans that has built up. Proper investigations exonerating Americans may eventually change the Pakistani mindset against them.

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## Awesome

TruthSeeker said:


> Obviously the dirty American should be taken from jail and hanged from the nearest telephone pole! He was stupid for thinking that he could drive his car, alone, in Lahore, without the protection of an Abrams tank. He was stupid!! How could he think that an American could be safe anywhere on the streets of Pakistan??? Obviously the hatred of Pakistanis is waaaaaay too much for any American to venture out of his walled compound. For his sheer stupidity he should be shot in his jail cell, by his police guards. Just like Taseer ......


Wow, full on theatrics? C'mon what're you so afraid of a little investigation to reveal?

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## mjnaushad

What was he doing in Lahore ??? Eating Phelwan Choley??

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## rohailmalhi

U americans are the ones to create hatred in our heart aginst americans coz of ur bloody acts what do u expect more .........when u kill civilians on daily basis and then label then terrorists .

The American should be prosecuted here in Pakistan according to Pakistani laws and if found guilty he should be given the punishment .

What max u americans can do isolate us from the world , u have already done that or u can stop the so called aid so let it be , i think u will do more good than bad by stopping the aid .

May Allah protect my Pakistan and it people from war mongers.

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## Abii

TruthSeeker said:


> Obviously the dirty American should be taken from jail and hanged from the nearest telephone pole! He was stupid for thinking that he could drive his car, alone, in Lahore, without the protection of an Abrams tank. He was stupid!! How could he think that an American could be safe anywhere on the streets of Pakistan??? Obviously the hatred of Pakistanis is waaaaaay too much for any American to venture out of his walled compound. For his sheer stupidity he should be shot in his jail cell, by his police guards. Just like Taseer ......



oh stfu

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## pkd

Ansar Abbasi in today's Jang has reported that a face mask and a GPS system has been found in the killers car. So the suspicions are rising that he may be an under cover agent.


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## RescueRanger

pkd said:


> Ansar Abbasi in today's Jang has reported that a face mask and a GPS system has been found in the killers car. So the suspicions are rising that he may be an under cover agent.



I have a Garmin Navigator with Pakistan Maps installed in my wife's car for convenience.. Does that make her a covert agent too?

As for face mask, that is not really relevant, the embassy could just say that they provide all staff with minimum PPE: Personal Protective Equipment. 

The weapons, that is the contentious issue here..

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## fatman17

American Eagle said:


> A return to the Stone Ages waits for Pakistan the day the US stops supplying and suporting the war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> Clearly you don't realize that some of the supplies being bought into Pakistan are FOR and remain IN Pakistan for the Pakistan miliary to use.



oh please!!!

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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> A return to the Stone Ages waits for Pakistan the day the US stops supplying and suporting the war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> Clearly you don't realize that some of the supplies being bought into Pakistan are FOR and remain IN Pakistan for the Pakistan miliary to use.



It's easy for you to write all these things while sitting on a nice comfortable chair and a nice comfortable Large LCD in front of you and a soft touch keyboard, on which your fingers are running like hell, living a nice and comfortable retirement life, everyday you wake there is tranquillity around you



But there is a reality out there, Mr American Eagle, An Ugly reality, since Pakistanis are facing these ugly realities every day and these realities have become part of our life, how can you understand what we went through every day? I invite you to Pakistan, Forget that Pakistan of 1960's which is in your mind, come and judge, why there is so much paranoia about americans around here? what makes people go mad about them?

Dont act like arm chair General, who never goes to battle field and only make assessments on the basis of reports received, and make decisions just like you, while sitting on a nice comfortable chair!

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## somebozo

Arab news
Islamabad rebuffs call for US gunman&#8217;s immediate release

By AZHAR MASOOD | ARAB NEWS

Published: Jan 30, 2011 04:14 Updated: Jan 30, 2011 04:14

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday rebuffed a call from the United States for the immediate release of an American man who shot dead two men in a Lahore street, saying its legal process must be respected.

US Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter called on Pakistan's Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir on Friday to discuss the matter. &#8220;The US envoy asked for consular access to the American national and it was accepted,&#8221; said a senior official here on condition of anonymity.

&#8220;However, the US envoy was told the government would discuss the issue with the Punjab government which is directly involved in the incident,&#8221; he said, adding that the US ambassador was assured that the law would be followed. An embassy statement said Davis has a US diplomatic passport and valid Pakistani visa until June 2012.

The government, already severely criticized for being submissive to the US, is most likely to come under intense domestic pressure to be tough on the American. &#8220;We are already seeing small protests around the country and it is expected that these demonstrations will grow larger in coming days,&#8221; he said.

A Pakistani diplomat said one problem for the Pakistani authorities was the question about Davis&#8217; &#8220;real&#8221; identity. &#8220;The way he behaved has led to the conclusion that he couldn&#8217;t be an ordinary diplomat,&#8221; said the diplomat who preferred anonymity.

He said the present government is already blamed for being too lenient when it comes to issuing visas to Americans intending to travel to Islamabad, and Pakistani security agencies are worried that there might be some dubious people taking advantage of that leniency.

&#8220;Now, we again witness a widespread debate of possible links between the infamous US private security firm Blackwater and the arrested American in Lahore, and all these things are creating a lot of trouble for the government,&#8221; he said.

However, a Western diplomat said Davis, if proved that he acted in self-defense, stands a good chance of avoiding prosecution under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. He said that according to the Vienna Convention, Pakistan has the right to ask the US to lift a diplomat&#8217;s immunity, but history has shown that the convention has helped rescue several envoys found guilty of killing or injuring people across the world.

US Embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale told The Associated Press that the official was &#8220;a member of the administrative and technical staff.&#8221;

Separately, a senior US official told AP that the man was authorized by the United States to carry a weapon, but that it was a &#8220;grey area&#8221; whether he could do so in Pakistan. &#8220;This is a test case for our rulers,&#8221; Maulana Fazlur Rehman, head of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, was quoted as saying by AP.

&#8220;A foreigner, an American cannot be allowed to shed blood this way. The matter is in the court. The facts will be revealed there.&#8221;

The senior US official told the news agency that the embassy was concerned about the man&#8217;s safety inside jail. He said the killing of the governor of Punjab province earlier this month by a police officer assigned to guard him had alarmed many in Washington.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he understood that some Pakistanis were angry about the incident. But that he was concerned officials in the Punjab were &#8220;pandering&#8221; to those emotions, citing a visit Friday by the province&#8217;s chief minister to the home of one of the Pakistanis killed.

© 2010 Arab News


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## RescueRanger

In response to the following thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...s-fired-into-auto-windshield.html#post1448776

I thought it pertinent to post my response in this thread:

Consider the following two pictures:






1. Steering Whell
2. Driver Seat

Consider the grouping of those shots... 

Now look at this image:




Just look at the grouping, yet there is no damage to the interior or the upholstery in the car.. Moreover the shots are directly over the driver seat, it is impossible that the driver would have survived..


Now consider the following videos:




(If the assialant's had indeed fired those shots, i find it hard to belive how davis is till alive).

Secondly:




Note how the shards of glass fly inwards when the windscreen is shot from the outside, the are travelling with so much force that they move the camera as they hit it. 

If by some miraculous divine intervention he did survive the bullets, why then does he not even have so much as a scratch from the flying glass?

I will once again remind those reading this, look at the grouping in the picture, look at the video's i have posted... Why is there no interior damage, and consider the grouping, how is it possible that someone could have survived that?

The answer is simple, he shot Outward from the windscreen....

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Are those ppl who got killed were civilians or robbers??

Anyone pls clerify..


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## Skull and Bones

somebozo said:


> Arab news
> Islamabad rebuffs call for US gunmans immediate release
> 
> By AZHAR MASOOD | ARAB NEWS
> 
> Published: Jan 30, 2011 04:14 Updated: Jan 30, 2011 04:14
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday rebuffed a call from the United States for the immediate release of an American man who shot dead two men in a Lahore street, saying its legal process must be respected.
> 
> US Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter called on Pakistan's Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir on Friday to discuss the matter. *The US envoy asked for consular access to the American national and it was accepted,* said a senior official here on condition of anonymity.
> 
> However, the US envoy was told the government would discuss the issue with the Punjab government which is directly involved in the incident, he said, adding that the US ambassador was assured that the law would be followed. An embassy statement said Davis has a US diplomatic passport and valid Pakistani visa until June 2012.
> 
> The government, already severely criticized for being submissive to the US, is most likely to come under intense domestic pressure to be tough on the American. We are already seeing small protests around the country and it is expected that these demonstrations will grow larger in coming days, he said.
> 
> A Pakistani diplomat said one problem for the Pakistani authorities was the question about Davis real identity. The way he behaved has led to the conclusion that he couldnt be an ordinary diplomat, said the diplomat who preferred anonymity.
> 
> He said the present government is already blamed for being too lenient when it comes to issuing visas to Americans intending to travel to Islamabad, and Pakistani security agencies are worried that there might be some dubious people taking advantage of that leniency.
> 
> Now, we again witness a widespread debate of possible links between the infamous US private security firm Blackwater and the arrested American in Lahore, and all these things are creating a lot of trouble for the government, he said.
> 
> *However, a Western diplomat said Davis, if proved that he acted in self-defense, stands a good chance of avoiding prosecution under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.* He said that according to the Vienna Convention, Pakistan has the right to ask the US to lift a diplomats immunity, but history has shown that the convention has helped rescue several envoys found guilty of killing or injuring people across the world.
> 
> US Embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale told The Associated Press that the official was a member of the administrative and technical staff.
> 
> Separately, a senior US official told AP that the man was authorized by the United States to carry a weapon, but that it was a grey area whether he could do so in Pakistan. This is a test case for our rulers, Maulana Fazlur Rehman, head of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, was quoted as saying by AP.
> 
> A foreigner, an American cannot be allowed to shed blood this way. The matter is in the court. The facts will be revealed there.
> 
> The senior US official told the news agency that the embassy was concerned about the mans safety inside jail. He said the killing of the governor of Punjab province earlier this month by a police officer assigned to guard him had alarmed many in Washington.
> 
> The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he understood that some Pakistanis were angry about the incident. But that he was concerned officials in the Punjab were pandering to those emotions, citing a visit Friday by the provinces chief minister to the home of one of the Pakistanis killed.
> 
> © 2010 Arab News



First he shot innocents citizens and then crushed many more in the busy road, and then he's describing the whole scene as an act of self defense?
Someone gotto teach these Americans that they are in foreign soil and they have to follow the law of Pakistan. Time to get though guys because Americans will be desperate to rescue him by exploiting some bureaucratic loop holes.


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## JonAsad

RescueRanger said:


> Consider the following two pictures:



One thing i must conclude here is, looking at the angle of front windscreen and that of the entering bullets holes, there is no possible way that the bullets can come put of the rear windscreen thus shattering it. It must have hit the drivers seat.

another scenario is, suppose the driver ducked, and escaped the flying sharp peices of glass, he must have then opened the door, must have gotten out of the car, must have drawn his glock and must have fired back. The only problem in this story is what were the robbers doing at that time? Reloading after firing 4 shots?

Plus we can clearly see from the videos? Hello AE?? CCTV footage of the incident that the rear windscreen was intact when he escaped? Hello?? Cant you see that?

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## Patriot

*Gueorgui Makharadze*
*In January 1997, Gueorgui Makharadze, the deputy ambassador of the Republic of Georgia in Washington caused an accident that injured four people and killed a sixteen-year-old girl. He was found to have a blood alcohol content of 0.15, but released from custody because he was a diplomat. The U.S. government asked the Georgian government to waive his immunity, which they did and Makharadze was tried and convicted of manslaughter by the U.S. and sentenced to seven to twenty-one years in prison. The first three years of his sentence were served in a North Carolina prison, after which he was repatriated to his home nation of Georgia to serve the remainder of his sentence.*

Gueorgui Makharadze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## pkd

LAHORE: The US diplomat who claims to have shot two people dead in Lahore on Thursday only to defend himself in a robbery incident stands a good chance of avoiding prosecution under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (April 18, 1961), if one studies the past precedents in this context.

The American diplomat, Raymond Davis, is also being accused of trampling over another man while fleeing from the scene. According to the Vienna Convention of 1961, Pakistan has the right to ask the US to lift the accused diplomats immunity, but history reveals that the principles laid down in this conference nearly half a century ago have come to the rescue of at least half a dozen world envoys, who were found guilty of killing or injuring ordinary people in various incidents. These incidents have mostly been traffic-related though.

Although, the history of diplomatic immunity dates back to 1709 when the British Parliament had first granted this privilege to foreign ambassadors, the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations has saved various culpable envoys from prosecution or lawsuits in countries where they were stationed.

To cite a few examples, a Russian diplomat posted in Ottawa (Canada) had rammed his car into two pedestrians in January 2001, killing one and seriously injuring the other. The Canadian government had requested that Russia to waive the diplomat named Andrei Knyazevs immunity, but the request was refused. However, Knyazev was subsequently prosecuted in Russia for involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to four years in prison.

An American Consul General, Douglas Kent, was involved in a car accident in a Russian city on October 27, 1998, crippling a man called Alexander Kashin. Diplomat Kent was not prosecuted in the US, as an American Court of Appeals had ruled in August 2006 that since the Consul General was using his own vehicle for consular purposes, he could not be sued civilly.

In yet another episode, a Romanian Charge dAffaires in Singapore, Silviu Ionescu, was allegedly involved a drunk-driving hit-and-run accident in December 2009, that had resulted in the death of a 30-year-old man.

The Romanian diplomat had left Singapore for Romania three days after the accident. Though Romania did not waive his diplomatic immunity, criminal proceedings against him were conducted back home. He was formally charged with homicide by Romanian courts and remanded for 29 days.

Having sought an international arrest warrant against Ionescu, the Singapore government had argued that by reason of Article 39(2) of the Vienna Convention, envoy Ionescu was no longer protected by diplomatic immunity.

The guilty diplomat Ionescu was subsequently suspended from his post in February 2010. Meanwhile, a pedestrian who was hit in a fatal hit-and-run accident involving Romanian diplomat, had also gone on to sue the official for Singapore dollars 630,000.

On November 26, 2010, Ionescu was released from detention in Romania after being held in preventive custody at a prison in Bucharest for seven months, though he was not allowed to leave the country.

More recently, in January this year, Britain had asked India to waive off the diplomatic immunity for Anil Verma, a senior Indian diplomat accused of assaulting his wife, saying it does not tolerate envoys working in the UK breaking the law.

Verma, a third-ranked diplomat in the Indian High Commission, found himself in trouble when his injured wife Paromita was found screaming by neighbours on December 11 last year. When the police arrived, the 45-year-old Verma had claimed diplomatic immunity and eventually escaped action.

Verma, an Economic Minister in the Indian mission, was transferred to back to India with immediate effect. According to Daily Mail, throughout their time over here, diplomat Anil would boast about his diplomatic immunity and he would tell his wife Paromita that no one could touch him because of it. He was shameless with it. He has been given so much power and he is abusing it. Paromita has gone into hiding and seriously fears that her safety and health are in jeopardy.

Interestingly, the American double standards on the issue of diplomatic immunity can be gauged from the fact that while the Republic of Georgia had waived off the diplomatic immunity of one of its envoys to the US after he was found guilty of driving a car in a drunk state and killing a 16-year-old girl in January 1997, Washington DC had disallowed a similar request forwarded by Romania in December 2004 when a US soldier had killed a popular Romanian musician in Bucharest.

Republic of Georgia thus happens to be one of the few countries on the planet which are known to have waived off the diplomatic immunity of one of its diplomats posted in the US, after he was found guilty of driving a car in a drunken state and killing a 16-year-old girl in January 1997.

The deputy ambassador of the Republic of Georgia to the United States, Gueorgui Makharadze, had hit five people in January 1997, injuring four and killing one. Although the Georgian diplomat was released from custody initially, the US government had asked the Georgian government to waive his immunity.

The Georgian government acceded to the US request and diplomat Makharadze was tried and convicted of manslaughter. He was given a sentence from seven to 21 years in prison. However, after serving three years of his sentence, he was returned to his home country where he spent two more years in jail before being paroled.

On the contrary, an allegedly drunk US Marine stationed in the Romanian capital of Bucharest had collided with a taxi, killing the famous local musician Teo Peter on December 3, 2004. The marine, Christopher Van Goethem, had allegedly violated a traffic signal, which resulted in the collision of his car with the taxi carrying the Romanian rock star Teo Peter. Christopher had fled to Germany before charges could be laid against him.

The Romanian government had then requested the US government to lift the marines immunity, but to no avail. In a court-martial back home, the marine was acquitted of manslaughter and adultery, but was convicted of obstruction of justice.

It is worth mentioning that in the United States, if a person with immunity is alleged to have committed a crime or faces a civil lawsuit, the Department of State normally asks the home country to waive immunity of the alleged offender so that the complaint can be moved to the courts. If immunity is not waived, prosecution cannot be undertaken.

However, the Department of State still has the discretion to ask the diplomat to withdraw from her or his duties in the United States. In addition, the diplomats visas are often cancelled and his/her family members are barred from returning to the United States. Crimes committed by members of a diplomats family can also result in dismissal.

Abuse of diplomatic immunity was made more visible by media coverage in the early 1990s. The abuse spans a variety of activities, ranging from parking violations to more serious criminal behavior such as domestic abuse and rape.

In February 1995, the then New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani forgave $800,000 in parking tickets accumulated by foreign diplomat-probably as a gesture of goodwill towards the visiting diplomats. 

Pakistan News Service - PakTribune


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## pkd

*Double murder-accused US diplomat was on a 'task' in Pakistan*

The US diplomat charged with double murder in Lahore has told the Pakistani investigators that he was on a 'task' assigned to him.

On Thursday, three people were killed when US consulate worker Raymond Davis opened fire on motorcycle riders and hit another with his car in an attempt to escape from the scene at Mazang Chowk in Lahore.

Well-placed sources close to the police investigators revealed that 40-year-old Davis was virtually upset over the incident as the investigators questioned him in a pleasant atmosphere while serving him black coffee and delicious bakery products, The Nation reports.

"I told you that I was going to fulfil the task, assigned to me in my capacity. That's all," a highly placed source quoted the accused as having told the investigators.

Reportedly, the accused snubbed the investigators when they repeated the question where he was going and as to why he was carrying a loaded and sophisticated gun with him.

Crimes Investigation Agency (CIA) police chief Omar Virk said the accused was cooperating with the police.

"We are interrogating him. He has to respond to our queries and we will produce him before the court when his remand expired," he said.

However, Virk declined to comment on what Davis had confessed before them or what he had explained in his recorded statement.

"This is a high profile and sensitive issue and we cannot disclose anything at this stage. We are investigating," he maintained. (ANI)

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## LeGenD

zs4 said:


> He actually has put his life and the life of other Americans in Pakistan in danger by firing. The objective of robbers is to take your possessions, not kill you. If they fire, they attract attention to themselves. Had he not reacted with a gun, the worst would have been him losing his possessions. 3 cellphones and a glock? big deal.


In Pakistan; robbers are known to kill people upon resistance.


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## pkd

Raymond Davis: Who dare point a finger at an American?
Raymond Davis: Who dare point a finger at an American? &#8211; The Express Tribune Blog

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## DESERT FIGHTER

The same swine and 3 others were arested in 2009 trying to enter cantonment area with sophisticated weapons in a vehiclw with fake number plate.

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## The HBS Guy

I have a question. What is Pakistan going to do with him?

As far as I believe, it's nearly impossible to keep an American in jail for life in countries like Pakistan and India which largely toe the US line.


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## fida jan

The HBS Guy said:


> I have a question. What is Pakistan going to do with him?
> 
> As far as I believe, it's nearly impossible to keep an American in jail for life in countries like Pakistan and India which largely toe the US line.



buddy if proven guilty, he will be hanged

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## Shameel

pkd said:


> LAHORE: The US diplomat who claims to have shot two people dead in Lahore on Thursday only to defend himself in a robbery incident stands a good chance of avoiding prosecution under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (April 18, 1961), if one studies the past precedents in this context.




This article is assuming he is a diplomat. At this moment, the Government of Pakistan and the Government of the Punjab are both disputing his diplomatic status.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*An American in Lahore *
By Salman Masood
Published: January 30, 2011 


The writer has covered Pakistan for The New York Times since 2002 and was part of the reporting team that won the 2009 Pulitzer Prize for coverage of Pakistan and Afghanistan salman.masood@tribune.com.pk 

The shooting in Lahore has all the potential to erupt into another public relations disaster for America in Pakistan, where anti-Americanism is already high, whipped up by rightwingers and nationalists as a convenient bogey all the time. The US is held responsible for everything that goes awry in this &#8216;land of the pure&#8217;.

America-bashing has taken the shape of a master craft, which is well-rehearsed and constantly repeated. In such an atmosphere of mistrust and acrimony, a shooting spree that leaves more questions asked than answered is a troubling development and couldn&#8217;t have come at a worse time.

One cannot deny that American citizens have to be cautious and wary about their security in the country. They often encounter hostile behaviors and political and religious sentiments override many social interactions. American motives are under constant scrutiny. The alliance with the US is perpetually judged in black and white. Religious and nationalistic rhetoric presents a distorted and skewed relationship between the two countries.

American officials are often labeled as &#8216;Blackwater operatives&#8217; by some sections of the local media, and this has endangered their lives.

The fact that many Americans and other diplomats carry arms while travelling inside the country, keeping in mind the precarious security situation, is not a secret, and known to both the public and the local law enforcing authorities.

It is still not exactly clear what really happened in Lahore on January 27. Raymond Davis claims that he acted in self-defence. But is he guilty of using excessive force? Could he have acted with more restraint? What is his actual background? Pakistani officials also need to thoroughly investigate the two motorbike riders. Initial accounts by police say that two weapons were found with the two dead. Street crime is nothing new. Is there any credence in the claim by the family of one of the deceased that one weapon was licensed and carried due to a family feud?

The facts need to be ascertained but, more importantly, made open to the public. The law should run its due course.

This unfortunate episode provides a window of opportunity to the US as well. Instead of maintaining a silence, which would result in furthering poisonous rumour mongering and conspiratorial speculations, US officials need to be transparent and open. Their silence would be heard loudly and presented as a testimony of guilt by those who oppose the US in an almost knee-jerk reaction. One incident, if badly handled, can wash away all the good that the United States has done recently for the flood victims in the country.

The shooting has already put the Pakistani government under pressure and officials have tried to dismiss the impression that the US citizen would be meted out any preferential treatment. Mr Davis has been charged with murder. The trial and its proceedings should make for riveting headlines.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 30th, 2011.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Who dares point a finger at an American .. Its so stupid of Pakistanis to even hate americans for cleaning up population through drone strikes,torturing many innocent in gitmo, Instead they should be thankfull to the american who are bombing there country through hellfires , Blackwater mercanaries of a christian cult moving around like kings, 
How dare Pakistanis hate america for torturing Afia Siddiqui in Jail through sick interogations carried out by a sick scum. 
How dare the Pakistanis hate America for exploiting Religious fanatics for its imperialistic ambitions ...How dare they...!!!!

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## American Eagle

I recall this bit of history in downtown London from 27 years ago in about 1984. 



> *Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by niaz
> 
> Before all of us get carried away in blind hate of the Americans. Let me recount what happened in UK in front of my eyes 27 years back.
> 
> There was a peaceful demonstration in front of the Libyan Embassy by Libyan Nation Front opposed to Col Qaddafi. UK Police were on duty to keep the peace. Shots were fired from inside the Libyan Embassy and a police woman called Yvonne Fletcher died as a result. This happened in the St James Square, London. My office was at 3, St James Square; we came out when we heard the shots and I saw PC Yvonne Fletcher lying dead. Despite the furore in the British media, the said diplomat was allowed to go free as diplomatic immunity was claimed. This was the time when Libya was considered an international pariah. Only thing that happened was that Libyan Embassy was closed and reopened 3 years later at a different location.
> 
> On a personal note; knowing the Law& Order condition in Pakistan, if I was in his place and found a motorbike rider following me, I would do the same. For Heaven&#8217;s Sake! Even the Pak Army generals are being gunned down and leaders such as BB assassinated. Americans are the choicest targets of the TTP and Al-Qaida. If I think I am being followed, you expect me sit quietly and be shot! You might but I wouldn&#8217;t.
> 
> Rather this than have a US diplomat shot. Best thing to do is to ask for compensation. As long as we are part of the International community, we have to follow diplomatic protocol. Suppose if a Pakistani diplomat is being followed by a Shiv Sena thug in Delhi, would you condemn him as much as you are doing in this case. Remember diplomats are immune from prosecution in host country and this also applies to Pakistani diplomats in the US as well as in India. *


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

niaz said:


> Before all of us get carried away in blind hate of the Americans. Let me recount what happened in UK in front of my eyes 27 years back.
> 
> There was a peaceful demonstration in front of the Libyan Embassy by Libyan Nation Front opposed to Col Qaddafi. UK Police were on duty to keep the peace. Shots were fired from inside the Libyan Embassy and a police woman called Yvonne Fletcher died as a result. This happened in the St James Square, London. My office was at 3, St James Square; we came out when we heard the shots and I saw PC Yvonne Fletcher lying dead. Despite the furore in the British media, the said diplomat was allowed to go free as diplomatic immunity was claimed. This was the time when Libya was considered an international pariah. Only thing that happened was that Libyan Embassy was closed and reopened 3 years later at a different location.
> 
> On a personal note; knowing the Law& Order condition in Pakistan, if I was in his place and found a motorbike rider following me, I would do the same. For Heavens Sake! Even the Pak Army generals are being gunned down and leaders such as BB assassinated. Americans are the choicest targets of the TTP and Al-Qaida. If I think I am being followed, you expect me sit quietly and be shot! You might but I wouldnt.
> 
> Rather this than have a US diplomat shot. Best thing to do is to ask for compensation. As long as we are part of the International community, we have to follow diplomatic protocol. Suppose if a Pakistani diplomat is being followed by a Shiv Sena thug in Delhi, would you condemn him as much as you are doing in this case. Remember diplomats are immune from prosecution in host country and this also applies to Pakistani diplomats in the US as well as in India.



The Only sane reply here i came across....


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## American Eagle

Which Pakistan is that?

The one that does not try to regulate ownership and carrying and use of personal fire arms in FATA, NWFP, Balochistan, Swat, all over most of the Provinces of all of Pakistan?

Attempted armed robbery in the US is a self defense tort action where the innocent victum who defends himself is guiltless of anything.

Pakistan today sadly internally is a wild frontier atmosphere including repeatedly of recent dates in Lahore, in Karachi, and elsewhere nationwide.

Armed robberies the same day by the same two thieves.

Armed robbery now used as a fund raising tactic for the Taliban and al Qaida.

Honest Pakistani Muslims blow to bits by heretical terrorists who proclaim theirs is the only true faith and use violence to push their viewpoint, starting with 911.

Where is the outrage by Pakistanis against the terrorists, the robbers?

Where is genuine condolence sympathy due the familes of the day before the failed Lahore robbery of Raymond Davis...for the 35 innocent Lahore natives blown to bits by a terrorist suicide bomber, with 180 other innocent Pakistanis in Lahore wounded?

Pakistan as a NATO ally (Pakistan is formally an Affiliate of NATO for those who don't know this fact) and is in the midst of a hot war. Banks and individuals are being robbed to help fund the Taliban and al Qaida internally there.


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## humanfirst

Guys is it true that the died ones had committed a robbery earlier that day and one of them was previously prosecuted for armed robbery?
This may be the only point that is gonna save that american in court,unless it is established that the bullet holes in windshield was made by the bikers firing at him.


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## logic

On January 27, this year an American employee of the US Consulate in Lahore, identified as David Raymond, shot dead two Pakistani youths, while a third was crushed by the driver of a Parado jeep, who was called by him for help, at Chowk Qartaba. Persons, sitting in the jeep were also carrying weapons. Police arrested David near Old Anarkali Food Street after a chase and registered a case against him on two counts, while a case was also registered against unidentified people.

On the one side, the United States has called for the immediate release of the American diplomat, claiming that Pakistani authorities have detained the diplomat unlawfully and in violation of international law. On the other side, investigators and experts are the opinion that the under-investigation American involved in the murder of civilians in Lahore was in Pakistan on a visit visa and not on a diplomatic assignment&#65533;does not qualify for immunity from prosecution.

Sources suggest that David Raymond including his companions were agents of the American CIA and were on an anti-Pakistan mission. In fact, he is part of the illegal activities of the Blackwater whose employees of entered Pakistan in the guise of diplomats. 

However, with the help of Indian secret agency RAW and Israeli Mossad, Blackwater has rapidly established its network in Pakistan. It has recruited those Pakistani nationals who are vulnerable and can work on payroll. In this connection, the company has been giving high financial incentives to our people. In this context, some reports suggest that this notorious firm has been recruiting smugglers, employees of the security companies, experts of the psychological warfare, scholars and journalists in order to fulfill anti-Pakistan designs of America including India and Israel.

It is of particular attention that a few days ago, Pakistani security officials have foiled an attempt by the Indian intelligence to enact a fake encounter for implicating Pakistan in incidents of cross border terrorism. The plan was unearthed when a suspect, working for the Indian RAW was apprehended in Sialkot border area, while attempting to cross over to India through the border security fence; an impregnable barbed wire obstacle. Entrance points on the fence are locked and controlled by the Indian Border Security Force (BSF). The suspect has confessed to work as an Indian spy who was tasked to recruit agents from Pakistan to work for Indian intelligence.

Well-informed sources indicate that the suspect whose name has been withheld for security reasons disclosed that his Indian handlers, Mr. Sharma and Mr. Amjad, had asked him to recruit a Pakistani national by offering a large monetary reward, preferably carrying a weapon and send him across the border through the border barbed wire fence after liaison with the BSF troops. Mr. Sharma had assured him that all the details of border crossing would be finalized by him and duly taken care off at his end. The suspect also disclosed that the Indian Intelligence had planned a fake encounter to kill the border crosser and exploit the episode as proof of subversive elements launched by Pakistans spy agency, ISI crossing over from Pakistan to commit acts of terrorism in India. He also pointed out that he had held a few meetings with his Indian handlers in Islamabad as well.

Nevertheless, both the above mentioned events prove the involvement of Americans and Indians&#65533;under cover intelligence officers stationed in their Islamabad embassies and consulates, and are continuously engaged in espionage activities in grave violation of their diplomatic status.

It is mentionable that in the last three years, Pakistans security forces and intelligence agencies have caught a number of foreign spies along with sophisticated weapons, working against the integration of the country. In this respect, a number of times, arms and guns were also captured from Americans, traveling in the vehicles in various cities of Pakistan, camouflaged with dark mirrors.

Although Pakistans security forces have successfully coped with the Taliban militants in the Malakand Division and South Waziristan, yet situation has deteriorated in the country where subversive events like suicide attacks, targeted killings, attacks on buildings, oil pipelines, sectarian violence etc. have intensified due to the presence of external spies.

Notably, Pakistans civil and military high officials have openly been revealing that RAW, Mossad and other foreign agencies are involved in supporting separatism in Balochistan and acts of terrorism in other cities of Pakistan.

In this respect, on April 23, 2009 in the in-camera sitting of the Senate, Federal Minister to the Interior, Rehman Malik had displayed documentary evidence of Indian use of Afghanistan to create unrest in Balochistan. It is believed that the main aim of in-camera session was also to show the engagement of American CIA and other external agencies as part of a conspiracy against Pakistan because at that stage, Islamabad did not want to publicly point out America.

In this regard, Pakistans Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit without naming CIA had revealed, The evidence of foreign powers involvement in the destabilisation of Pakistan will be shared with relevant countries.

While in the recent past, Governor of Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa, Awais Ghani had disclosed that some world powers were trying to divide Pakistan, adding that if he were not a governor, he would have exposed them.

During the Malakand and Waziristan military operations, ISPR spokesman, Maj-Gen. Athar Abbas has repeatedly indicated foreign hands in helping the insurgents in order to destabilize Pakistan.

It is notable that Pakistan is the only nuclear country in the Islamic World; hence the US, India, Israel and some western powers are determined to weaken it. Notably, despite American cooperation with Islamabad, its main aim along with India and Israel remains to de-nuclearise our country whose geo-strategic location with the Gwader port entailing close ties with China irks the eyes of these powers. Hence, they are in collusion to destabilise Pakistan. For this purpose, a well-established network of Indian army, RAW, Mossad and CIA which was set up in Afghanistan against Pakistan in order to support insurgency in the Khyber Pakhtookhwa and separatism in Balochistan have been extended. However, now, it has been expanded in whole of Pakistan as recent suicide attacks, bomb blasts and targeted killings in Karachi and Lahore have proved.

The fact of the matter is that CIA, RAW and Mossad are collectively working inside Pakistan. In this context, these secret agencies have been spending huge money to train and equip the militants who have been entering Pakistan on daily basis and have been conducting suicide attacks in our country, and assaults on our security forces including targetted killings&#65533;inciting sectarian violence.

Besides, these foreign agencies have purchased the services of some Indian Muslims and Pakistanis. Those who did not come up to their terms have been neutralized or murdered. In this regard, in the past few years, some politicians, intellectuals, journalists and religious leaders have been killed by the agents of these external agencies, while some are on their hit-list. Their purpose is to create perennial unrest in Pakistan, while main aim remains to disintegrate the country.

Nonetheless, the incident in Lahore, arrest of an American, David Raymond, and the suspect from Sialkot border&#65533;working for Indian spy agency, without any doubt confirms the presence of a well-organized foreign espionage network, based in Pakistan and the same is run by CIA, RAW and Mossad including their undercover agents. While conducting acts of terrorism to weaken Pakistan remains their top priority


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## fida jan

American Eagle said:


> Which Pakistan is that?
> 
> The one that does not try to regulate ownership and carrying and use of personal fire arms in FATA, NWFP, Balochistan, Swat, all over most of the Provinces of all of Pakistan?
> 
> Attempted armed robbery in the US is a self defense tort action where the innocent victum who defends himself is guiltless of anything.
> 
> Pakistan today sadly internally is a wild frontier atmosphere including repeatedly of recent dates in Lahore, in Karachi, and elsewhere nationwide.



then why dont you run from islamabad and take your fortress embassy else where

remember its your american dogs that are making worst conditions in pakistan, your covert ops, your drone attacks.. you bloody coward army

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## logic

SLAMABAD: The National Assembly&#8217;s Standing Committee on Interior has directed the Ministry of Foreign Affairs secretary to ask the US Consulate in Lahore to send their representative to attend a meeting, which will take up the issue of the killing of two youths by
its employee.

The meeting will be held on January 31 in the Parliament House with NA Standing Committee on Interior Chairman MNA Abdul Qadir in the chair. Interior Minister Rehman Malik, the ministry&#8217;s secretary and other officials concerned have also been asked to attend the meeting.

The committee has asked the *inspector general of Punjab police (IGP), the Lahore district coordination officer (DCO) and capital city police officer (CCPO) to attend the meeting and also ensure the presence of the heirs of the youths killed by Raymond Davis*, employee for the US Consulate in Lahore.

Reportedly, the NA body on Interior has also sought a report on the incident. It directed the authorities concerned to provide a comprehensive report on the killings by the American.

It may be recalled that an employee of the US Consulate in Lahore shot dead two youths, while a third was crushed by the driver of a vehicle, who was called by him for help, at Chowk Qartaba on Thursday. app


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## logic

*LAHORE: Deputy Prosecutor General of Punjab, Rana Bakhtiar said on Sunday that Raymond Davis had fired the bullets from the back thus it was not a case of self defense as he had stated earlier.*

Rana also said that Davis, charged with murder of two motorcyclists in Lahore, did not hold any special privileges as a diplomat.

Referring to Article 49-2 of the Vienna Convention, he said that diplomatic officials only hold privilege when they are on duty, but Davis was in Pakistan on a business visa.

Davis is being described by the American media as a security contractor from a Florida-based firm, Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC.

That Foreign Office and the US embassy were not on the same page on the issue of status of the accused was obvious from an FO press release that mentioned Davis as a US functionary, and not a diplomat.
http://www.dawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Raymond-Davis-543.jpg

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## VelocuR

*Please pay attention
*

*Important Note:*

*Rana also said that Davis, charged with murder of two motorcyclists in Lahore, did not hold any special privileges as a diplomat.*

Referring to Article 49-2 of the Vienna Convention, he said that diplomatic officials only hold privilege when they are on duty, but *Davis was in Pakistan on a business visa.*

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## American Eagle

The fact is Raymond Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport and has a valid diplomatic VISA from the Government of Pakistan until mid-2012.

It would be more appropriate if the GOP and of the Government of Punjab Province apologized to Mr. Davis for his being hassled when he is the victum of an attempted threat to his life in a case of armed robbery, which robbers had just a short time earlier, same day, robbed an innocent Pakitani man.

Are they now to go arrest the innocent Pakistani victum of robbery for having reported their crime carried out against him before they tried to rob Raymond Davis?

Mr. Davis defended himself, saved his own life, and has diplomatic immunity. The person who determines which US officials have diplomatic status and immunity is the US Ambassador and the US Dept. of State when the Diplomatic Passport is originally issued and when the host government grants a VISA on the Diplomatic Passport...all of which was properly done and is of official record...not all this mumbo jumbo ranting on this site by children on computers who were born and raised outside of Pakistan who are suddently feeling a cultural pride due to attention to the nation of Pakistan.

They are not living in nor serving as a member of the Pakistani military or a range of public service, health, and welfare jobs they could be doing inside Pakistan if they want to be real Pakistanis and earn the respect of their own native people by livng and working in Pakistan...contributing proactively and positively to a better future of Pakistan.

Real pride in the nation of Pakistan is to support the war on terrorism, stop the Taliban, end the al Qaida forever, and restore law and order and a peaceful religious process which respects and tolerates other religious views and opinions without using a hanged Mr. Bhutto trumped up "blasphemy law" to kill people who you do not like, want to get even with, or who you demand to stop practicing a different religion "because radical Islamics say so."


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## logic

RANT ON


American Eagle said:


> The fact is Raymond Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport and has a valid diplomatic VISA from the Government of Pakistan until mid-2012.
> 
> It would be more appropriate if the GOP and of the Government of Punjab Province apologized to Mr. Davis for his being hassled when he is the victum of an attempted threat to his life in a case of armed robbery, which robbers had just a short time earlier, same day, robbed an innocent Pakitani man.
> 
> Are they now to go arrest the innocent Pakistani victum of robbery for having reported their crime carried out against him before they tried to rob Raymond Davis?
> 
> Mr. Davis defended himself, saved his own life, and has diplomatic immunity. The person who determines which US officials have diplomatic status and immunity is the US Ambassador and the US Dept. of State when the Diplomatic Passport is originally issued and when the host government grants a VISA on the Diplomatic Passport...all of which was properly done and is of official record...not all this mumbo jumbo ranting on this site by children on computers who were born and raised outside of Pakistan who are suddently feeling a cultural pride is attention to a nation they are not living in nor serving as a member of the Pakistani military or a range of public service, health, and welfare jobs they could be doing inside Pakistan if they want to be real Pakistanis and earn the respect of their own native people by livng and working in Pakistan...contributing proactively and positively to a better future of Pakistan.


RANT OFF

Pakistan's Foreign Office, however, has rejected the plea.

*'Ramond is not a diplomat and does not enjoy diplomatic immunity*. Otherwise, the US officials would not have to even ask for it,' a Foreign Office spokesman was quoted as saying in the media Sunday.

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## mikkix

American Eagle said:


> The fact is Raymond Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport and has a valid diplomatic VISA from the Government of Pakistan until mid-2012.
> 
> It would be more appropriate if the GOP and of the Government of Punjab Province apologized to Mr. Davis for his being hassled when he is the victum of an attempted threat to his life in a case of armed robbery, which robbers had just a short time earlier, same day, robbed an innocent Pakitani man.
> 
> Are they now to go arrest the innocent Pakistani victum of robbery for having reported their crime carried out against him before they tried to rob Raymond Davis?
> 
> Mr. Davis defended himself, saved his own life, and has diplomatic immunity. The person who determines which US officials have diplomatic status and immunity is the US Ambassador and the US Dept. of State when the Diplomatic Passport is originally issued and when the host government grants a VISA on the Diplomatic Passport...all of which was properly done and is of official record...not all this mumbo jumbo ranting on this site by children on computers who were born and raised outside of Pakistan who are suddently feeling a cultural pride is attention to a nation they are not living in nor serving as a member of the Pakistani military or a range of public service, health, and welfare jobs they could be doing inside Pakistan if they want to be real Pakistanis and earn the respect of their own native people by livng and working in Pakistan...contributing proactively and positively to a better future of Pakistan.



davis has a visit visa, tschnical advisor, he is ready to apologise with the victim's family, so forget govt of Pakistan.
The guy may have a link with terrorists, involved in suicode bombings and target killings.
He should be punished, go hell to hue and cry.

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## American Eagle

You are using a Pakistani newspaper concocted story to try to make legal judgements?

That is not how international diplomatic law operates.



> And Mr. Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport with a valid granted by the Government of Pakistan VISA on the diplomatic passport authorizing him to be present for duty with the US Embassy in Pakistan as a diplomatic employee of the US Dept. of State and the US Embassy in Islamabad.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> You are using a Pakistani newspaper concocted story to try to make legal judgements?
> 
> That is not how international diplomatic law operates.



Lies Lies and more Lies.

*The punk is in custody and law will take its course*


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## Irfan Baloch

ashok321 said:


> Here is how the things will end up in Pakistan:
> 
> Davis would be US bound (Pakistan cant keep white American down for long), and Pakistan would save its face by extracting some money for deceased robbers.




so you already decided that they were robbers... well done 
indeed he will walk free and fly back to US in the next flight
not because the victims were Pakistanis..
same will happen to Indians or anyone for that matter. So please dont rub it in..

with a position, power and status of worlds only super power, its really hard to have same set of rules and standards for itself that America will "demand" off the other countries.

just to add salt to the wounds wait till that guy will be given prime time on "Larry King live" and sign book deals and welcomed like a hero on the airport..

this is the way how America shows the middle finger to the rest of the world. and I cant blame it.. whats the point of being a super power when you cant make other feel miserable & helpless. Just like in our Asian movies when the villain has heros family in chain and mocks at his mother and sisters.

And yes I am upset.. But I am resigned to the fact that any country like Pakistan will be made to feel the same way the Jungle rule reigns supreme till today.

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## American Eagle

In fact today, Sunday, Jan. 30, 2011 the Parliament of Pakistan, has a view moving toward the US Ambassador's and US Department of State International Law facts...not as you assert.

The American position clearly fits in with the business principles of Hyperion Protective Consultants.

Their website says that the personnel provided to the customer (US State Department in this case) are hired as the customer&#8217;s employees. As such the &#8220;legal liabilities reside with the business contracting the service&#8221;.



> The US embassy statement set aside all diplomatese and not only accused the host government of &#8216;unlawfully detaining&#8217; its &#8216;diplomat&#8217;, but criticised the remand of the accused given by a judicial magistrate.
> 
> &#8220;Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory,&#8221; the embassy statement noted.


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## pkd

&#8216;Accused US diplomat holds no special privileges&#8217;
?Accused US diplomat holds no special privileges? | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

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## American Eagle

The Pakistani National Assembly seems to be facing up to the facts of diplomatic immunity for Raymond Davis, who holds a valid US Department of State Diplomatic Passport with a valid Government of Paksitan Foreign Office VISA thereon.



> ISLAMABAD: The National Assembly&#8217;s Standing Committee on Interior has directed the Ministry of Foreign Affairs secretary to ask the US Consulate in Lahore to send their representative to attend a meeting, which will take up the issue of the killing of two youths by its diplomatic employee.
> 
> The meeting will be held on January 31 in the Parliament House with NA Standing Committee on Interior Chairman MNA Abdul Qadir in the chair. Interior Minister Rehman Malik, the ministry&#8217;s secretary and other officials concerned have also been asked to attend the meeting.
> 
> The committee has asked the inspector general of Punjab police (IGP), the Lahore district coordination officer (DCO) and capital city police officer (CCPO) to attend the meeting and also ensure the presence of the heirs of the youths killed by Raymond Davis, diplomatic employee for the US Consulate in Lahore.
> 
> Reportedly, the NA body on Interior has also sought a report on the incident. It directed the authorities concerned to provide a comprehensive report on the killings by the American.
> 
> It may be recalled that a dipomatic employee of the US Consulate in Lahore shot dead two youths, while a third was crushed by the driver of a vehicle, who was called by him for help, at Chowk Qartaba on Thursday. app Sunday January 30, 2011.


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## AstanoshKhan

A Georgian diplomat in the US killed a man when his car hit him accidentally and that diplomat was charged 21 years in Prison even though he pleaded for diplomatic immunity and the Georgian Govt was involved too but nothing happened. It happened back in 1996/97 when Bill Clinton was in charge. Since it's an old news but I'll try to find a link or some news evidence to support it.

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## American Eagle

We are not talking about a drunk driving case here.

We are talking about armed robbery attempted on the life and limb of a US diplomatic employee of the American Embassy in Pakistan.

Two entirely different scenarios.


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## Ahmad

This is something neither the US nor paksitan wanted, we will see where this incident takes the relations between them in the near future.


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## Rafael

@ American Eagle:

Sir pray that this American Rambo does get tried in the courts and doesn't bypass the legal proceedings due to the American Pressure. If that happens, You guys will be facing a situation like Iran of 1979. Trust me this hatred towards YOUR country has gone beyond control and this case will turn out to be the last nail in the coffin. 

Yes you'll be up against 180 million "terrorists".

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## Rafael

American Eagle said:


> We are not talking about a drunk driving case here.
> 
> *We are talking about armed robbery attempted on the life and limb of a US diplomatic employee of the American Embassy in Pakistan.*
> 
> Two entirely different scenarios.




It is still to be seen that whether it was an attempt of robbery or something else. Don't make your own facts, wait for the courts to give their verdict.


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## AstanoshKhan

*Legal experts say courts will decide immunity issue
*
Updated at 1145 PST Sunday, January 30, 2011







By Usman Manzoor
ISLAMABAD: There might be immense pressure on Pakistan Government to release the American who killed three Pakistanis in Lahore on Thursday but Raymond Davis could only be saved from the long arm of the law if the president pardons him after the due process is completed, experts of international law say.

Former Advocate General of Sindh Barrister Farogh Naseem while talking to The News said there is no diplomatic immunity for the American killer but if immunity is claimed by either the US embassy or even by Pakistan government, a court will have to decide to grant it or not.

*He mentioned that Raymond Davis was not a diplomat covered under the Vienna Conventions therefore he can not claim any immunity.
*
*"The only thing that can save Davis is a presidential pardon available to the President of Pakistan under article 45 of the constitution," the barrister said.*

*He mentioned that immunity could only be claimed when a diplomat does something while performing his diplomatic duties whereas neither Davis was a diplomat nor he had killed in Lahore as part of his duty.*

He said that if the American claims that he shot three persons dead in self-defence then it is for the court to decide whether the act was done in self-defence and was proportionate to the threat.

Naseem mentioned that law does not accept that if a person punches someone and receives a bullet in return as self-defence because self-defence has to be proportionate to the attack. He asked if a Pakistani ambassador, who is fully covered under the Vienna Conventions, can claim immunity after killing someone publicly in London or in Washington.

Ahmer Bilal Sufi, another expert in international law, said that when the staffer of a consulate has been arrested then the domestic law, Diplomatic and Counsellor Privileges Act 1972 applies which means the court will decide about his immunity.

He said that the status of a diplomat is clearly defined when any person is sent in any embassy either as a diplomatic agent or a counsellor staff. For counsellor staff, diplomatic immunity is not absolute. Sufi said if Pakistan government wants to set the American free, even then the courts will have to decide.

The London based Association of Pakistani Lawyers (APL), a team of Pakistani origin lawyers, solicitors, barristers, and judges in UK expressed its concerns on the extra-judicial killing of at least three people by a foreigner, Raymond Davis, in Lahore.

In a statement issued on Saturday APL sought justice for the Pakistani citizens killed by the US mission employee and urged the Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Govt of Pakistan to ensure that there is no miscarriage of justice.

*"This is the biggest test of the current civil administration since its election on February 2008.

If they are negligent, it will pave way for a huge public outcry akin to Tunisia and Egypt which will have the potential to smash all those who stand between justice, fair play, equality and the free implementation of the law of the land," the statement said.*

APL reminded that no leniency was shown in the case of Dr Aafia Siddiqui and the US law of the land prevailed so in this case stern action must be ensured against the perpetrators to avoid public outrage.

*APL observed that criminals must be treated as criminals not as "Pakistani" criminals and or "US" criminals.*

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## Irfan Baloch

American Eagle said:


> We are not talking about a drunk driving case here.
> 
> We are talking about armed robbery attempted on the life and limb of a US diplomatic employee of the American Embassy in Pakistan.
> 
> Two entirely different scenarios.



I sincerely hope that the "robbery" allegation on the two killed are actually found to be true beyond doubt. but there is no such indication of that so far

and by the way what about the third person crushed to death by the second American car with a fake registration plate who ran away after the crime?

guilty or not doesnt matter.. we dont have the guts to hold a national of the most powerful country in the world. I think no country can... he is surely flying home next week and then there are book deals to sign, show to appear on, interviews and all that..
it hurts me more than it might heart you whatever I am saying but sadly its the reality.

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## Thomas

raheel1 said:


> @ American Eagle:
> 
> Sir pray that this American Rambo does get tried in the courts and doesn't bypass the legal proceedings due to the American Pressure. If that happens, You guys will be facing a situation like Iran of 1979. Trust me this hatred towards YOUR country has gone beyond control and this case will turn out to be the last nail in the coffin.
> 
> Yes you'll be up against 180 million "terrorists".




If he is tried in a Pakistan court there is only one possible outcome. Guilty! Not because he did it, but becuase even if he is innocent he has already been tried and convicted by the media and public. The frenzied almost lynch mob atmosphere will make the Judges to scared to go agianst the will of the people. 

I see similarities to what happened with the Blasphemy law. The public was whipped into a frenzy which resulted in the assasination of Salman Taseer. And guess what.....the Government bowed down. It didn't matter how unjust the law was. Or how it was being used to wrongfully persecute and kill people. All that mattered was public opinion...........


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## Rafael

Thomas said:


> If he is tried in a Pakistan court there is only one possible outcome. Guilty! Not because he did it, but becuase even if he is innocent he has already been tried and convicted by the media and public. The frenzied almost lynch mob atmosphere will make the Judges to scared to go agianst the will of the people.
> 
> I see similarities to what happened with the Blasphemy law. The public was whipped into a frenzy which resulted in the assasination of Salman Taseer. And guess what.....the Government bowed down. It didn't matter how unjust the law was. Or how it was being used to wrongfully persecute and kill people. All that mattered was public opinion...........



Let the courts give their verdict based on free and fair trial and if necessary they will make their findings public. Also, the same could be said about Americans. If he is tried in US, there is only one possible outcome and that is - Not Guilty!

Why don't you guys respect our court's decision when you told us to do the same when Dr. Afia was convicted?

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## Irfan Baloch

Thomas said:


> If he is tried in a Pakistan court there is only one possible outcome. Guilty! Not because he did it, but becuase even if he is innocent he has already been tried and convicted by the media and public. The frenzied almost lynch mob atmosphere will make the Judges to scared to go agianst the will of the people.
> 
> I see similarities to what happened with the Blasphemy law. The public was whipped into a frenzy which resulted in the assasination of Salman Taseer. And guess what.....the Government bowed down. It didn't matter how unjust the law was. Or how it was being used to wrongfully persecute and kill people. All that mattered was public opinion...........



I know what you are saying.
but like I said to American Eagle.. not to worry
even if he is guilty he is flying back next week
I am just amazed how we built up the guts to keep him that long

you are right about the media trial in Pakistan.. but that works both way sir.. look at how any story about Pakistan is reported in the western media. T he way the esteemed newspapers and news networks have loaded titles starting with &#8220; a country rife with intolerance & terrorism&#8230;&#8221;
&#8220;a nuclear country at the brink of collapse, with widespread anti Western sentiment&#8230;&#8221;

So my well informed, well placed members of civilised world have already made an opinion about the story.. Its pretty much a foregone conclusion that whatever we say is wrong because .. Well because we are at the brink of collapse and our nukes will fall in the hands of Taliban and our society is intolerant&#8230;

What I see here is that &#8220;diplomat&#8221; didn&#8217;t just stop at &#8220;double tapping&#8221; the &#8220;robbers&#8221; but shot them 3 to 4 times each as if he was celebrating his shooting power.

please shed some light on why did he decide to make a run for it from police? and what about the driver of the prado who crushed a 3rd person to death and then ran away?

its not all that innocent and simple is it?

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## Irfan Baloch

raheel1 said:


> @ American Eagle:
> . Trust me this hatred towards YOUR country has gone beyond control and this case will turn out to be the last nail in the coffin.
> 
> Yes you'll be up against 180 million "terrorists".



you clarified so no need to Ammend.

like you, I am also upset just my way of expression is different. my only concern was that such posts give chance to the trolls to derail and spread flame.

US Embassy is shown complete insensitivity and disregard for Pakistan by saying that even if Davis commited a crime he is immune to any prosecution.

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## Spring Onion

Irfan Baloch said:


> I sincerely hope that the "robbery" allegation on the two killed are actually found to be true beyond doubt. but there is no such indication of that so far
> 
> and by the way what about the third person crushed to death by the second American car with a fake registration plate who ran away after the crime?
> 
> guilty or not doesnt matter.. we dont have the guts to hold a national of the most powerful country in the world. I think no country can... he is surely flying home next week and then there are book deals to sign, show to appear on, interviews and all that..
> it hurts me more than it might heart you whatever I am saying but sadly its the reality.




Even the yankee self defence story is coming out as concocted as he has fired on the killed persons from behind.



anyway the killer will be set free but its unfortunate that old Americans are coming up with lame excuses in support of the killing

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## Spring Onion

Thomas said:


> I*f he is tried in a Pakistan court there is only one possible outcome. Guilty! Not because he did it, but becuase even if he is innocent he has already been tried and convicted by the media and public*. The frenzied almost lynch mob atmosphere will make the Judges to scared to go agianst the will of the people.
> 
> I see similarities to what happened with the Blasphemy law. The public was whipped into a frenzy which resulted in the assasination of Salman Taseer. And guess what.....the Government bowed down. It didn't matter how unjust the law was. Or how it was being used to wrongfully persecute and kill people. All that mattered was public opinion...........




How you guys can even speak like that.* Does Afia Siddiqi case ring a bell or conscience of Americans is as dead as anything?*


But we can assume the reality and thinking keeping in mind US of A was made inhabitable by bringing criminals for settling


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## Rafael

Irfan Baloch said:


> please ammed your post.. this is no time for such hallow slogans..
> you know it.. our leaders know it and Americans know it.
> 
> do you think we will all embark on terrorist attacks against USA just because a trigger happy arrogant American decided to rehearse his shooting skills in public?



Sir, You got it all wrong. The word "terrorist" was used in sarcasm as the Americans have developed a habit of labelling anybody and everybody a terrorist in Pakistan that does not agree with their point of view. All i said that the hatred towards Americans is reaching its climax and this could result in another iran like situation. Therefore I see nothing wrong in my post and I won't edit it.

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## JonAsad

AstanoshKhan said:


> A Georgian diplomat in the US killed a man when his car hit him accidentally and that diplomat was charged 21 years in Prison even though he pleaded for diplomatic immunity and the Georgian Govt was involved too but nothing happened. It happened back in 1996/97 when Bill Clinton was in charge. Since it's an old news but I'll try to find a link or some news evidence to support it.



it has been posted.. post 811


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## Aslan

mjnaushad said:


> Go and kill some robbers in US in selfdefence.... Then i'll see how the Free American Media and Fair Courts deals with you (*specially after knowing you are Pakistani*)...



To the bold part I really have my doubts.


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## Shameel

Thomas said:


> If he is tried in a Pakistan court there is only one possible outcome. Guilty! Not because he did it, but becuase even if he is innocent he has already been tried and convicted by the media and public. The frenzied almost lynch mob atmosphere will make the Judges to scared to go agianst the will of the people.
> 
> I see similarities to what happened with the Blasphemy law. The public was whipped into a frenzy which resulted in the assasination of Salman Taseer. And guess what.....the Government bowed down. It didn't matter how unjust the law was. Or how it was being used to wrongfully persecute and kill people. All that mattered was public opinion...........




The Raymond Davis issue cannot be compared to the blasphemy issue. There is no frenzy in this issue, although a lot of anger and frustration. 

Also, under Pakistani law, he can pay 'blood money' to the victims' familes, get pardons and walk. 

If this goes to trial, there is very little chance of him getting the death penalty as it was not premeditated murder. He will get the benefit of the doubt and get a few years sentence. He can appeal and even if his sentence is upheld by the Supreme Court, the President has the power to grant pardon. 

Then National Geographic can do a documentary on him in its "Jailed Abroad" series.

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## American Eagle

When a US diplomatic employee is faced with attempted armed robbery upon his person by two armed robbers fresh from having robbed a Paksitani national...where has the sanity gone for the police and law officials to not understand the legalisms and defer to the Paksitani Foreign Office and in turn it to the Pakistani General Assembly Standing Committee on Internal Affairs?

Diplomatic affairs and International Law regarding diplomatic immunity are at issue, including the literal preservation of safety of a set upon US diplomatic official whose consular function deals with security.

Of course this is very similar to the frenzy over the blasphemy law(s) in that folks on this site and by news accounts "around" Pakistan are being stirrred up with false stories, wild allegations, and "hang him high" pronouncements on this website. Absolutely wrong and in appropriate in terms of Diplomatic Immunity and International Treaties, Conventions, and established procedure.

This put upon American has been accused of everything from being a Jew (he is a Gentile Protestant) to being a terrorist himself. He is in fact a victum of violent crime and merely defended himself, as well he should have, else he himself would now be dead.


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## American Eagle

I do not agree with the basis for this whole fiasco but appreciate the writers views of finding a fast vs. slow way out to end all this hate mongering against an innocent American diplomatic officials who defended himself against armed robbers. Pretty simple facts.


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> The Pakistani National Assembly seems to be facing up to the facts of diplomatic immunity for Raymond Davis, who holds a valid US Department of State Diplomatic Passport with a valid Government of Paksitan Foreign Office VISA thereon.


You guys are quick to mention:

Diplomatic Passport
A Pakistani visa

However you never comment upon whether or not he had a diplomatic visa stamped on his diplomatic Passport.

I've given you the link time and time again about Pakistani visas and thus it still remains to be seen if he has a diplomatic visa given to him or not.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> When a US diplomatic employee is faced with attempted armed robbery upon his person by two armed robbers fresh from having robbed a Paksitani national...where has the sanity gone for the police and law officials to not understand the legalisms and defer to the Paksitani Foreign Office and in turn it to the Pakistani General Assembly Standing Committee on Internal Affairs?
> 
> Diplomatic affairs and International Law regarding diplomatic immunity are at issue, including the literal preservation of safety of a set upon US diplomatic official whose consular function deals with security.



Go and Protest outside the court at this criminals next hearing in couple of days time.
NO PERSON is world can be MANDATED to kill as he pleases.
Every Crook says he's innocent.

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## Leviza

American Eagle said:


> When a US diplomatic employee is faced with attempted armed robbery upon his person by two armed robbers fresh from having robbed a Paksitani national...where has the sanity gone for the police and law officials to not understand the legalisms and defer to the Paksitani Foreign Office and in turn it to the Pakistani General Assembly Standing Committee on Internal Affairs?
> 
> Diplomatic affairs and International Law regarding diplomatic immunity are at issue, including the literal preservation of safety of a set upon US diplomatic official whose consular function deals with security.



well all this is BS...
that guy who killed 3 Pakistanies is on visit visa to Pakistan as per sources now so tell me how can you people take his side...

tell me if im in USA can i kill someone in self defense if they try to rob me coz you also know its a very common site in NY and other areas..... make it a example and we will use it too.....

even in self defense no one can use more force to kill the robbers ..... whereas this person fired on these innocents people from the back... its not acceptable in Pakistan and we need take measures as per our law ....... stop say wrong things on this forum......

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## ashok321

_make it a example and we will use it too....._

One japanese boy was shot at loitering near a white guy´s apartment, and he came clean in USA, there was lot of uproar in Japan back 30 years.......


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> I do not agree with the basis for this whole fiasco but appreciate the writers views of finding a fast vs. slow way out to end all this hate mongering against an innocent American diplomatic officials who defended himself against armed robbers. Pretty simple facts.


Unfortunately there's no way around it.

If we give in to American pressure of releasing him, then there is no way of actually ending this distrust of Americans. Till Pakistanis keep investigating suspicious Americans and hopefully keep finding them innocent the perception won't change in Pakistan. If you force his release, then everyone will always remember the American killer that the American people defended for killing Pakistanis. Let him be acquitted by a Pakistani court of law.

At the heart of it all there lies the belief that America might be funding terrorist groups that fit its agenda - like BLA (which the US doesn't recognize as a terrorist organization) or the Jundullah group. So when a Rambo gets caught in Pakistan immediately everyone's minds goes there and they want to determine the truth.

Nobody would fabricate evidence - I think no foreign commentator has even speculated that much. In fact most of the government is working round the clock to figure out the easiest way to release him and yet state that due process took place, due diligence was done.

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## Leviza

Thomas said:


> If he is tried in a Pakistan court there is only one possible outcome. Guilty! Not because he did it, but becuase even if he is innocent he has already been tried and convicted by the media and public.




i like it coz now you all yanks know *what Pakistanies felt about Dr Afia case in NY*... but did your media and Gov listened to what we were saying.... *i just love it now you are in the same boat...*

she didnt even fired anything on US personals and got injured herself but you justice system is so damn weak that they went for same ONE possible outcome GUILTY....... i hate this fact you people always think you are innocent ... now face the reality like true fighter......

hang this guy and get others 2 who crashed one innocent person on the road....


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## American Eagle

You can't even separate the fact that a separate traffic accident killed a third person on a motor cycle who darted into the path of a Pakistani national driven second vehicle from the Lahore US Consulate.

You are a prime example of the lynch mob facts "by damned" mentality on this site. Foks like you who have no idea what diplomatic immunity is, who deny and defy Pakitanis, two, armed, trying to commit a robbery and threatening the life and limb of a put upon by them US Consular diplomatic passport with proper Pakistani VISA American diplomatic official.

Factually for your and all other readers information when I served with and in the US Embassy then in Karchi:

1. I had a US Official Passport (military passport) which when
2. Stamped by Pakistani Immigration Officials admitted me for my 18 month tour of duty with full Diplomatic Immunity.

You don't know squat about the law, making it up to suit yourselves.

Are you out to find the organizers of the suicide bombing from day before the American's robbery attack on his person? That is where you need to stay focused, on catching and ending terrorism and terrorists.

Robbery has become a major basis to get quick funding for the Taliban and al Qaida who have more and more been cut off from former outside funding from the various Arab accounts and Wahabbists deep pockets.

Ignoring these linkages is why terrorism continues to fester and kill many innocent Paksitanis every week in Pakistan. Shame on your short sighted, wrong focus.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Unfortunately there's no way around it.



Oh yes there is, and it will soon be "found" after the intial hoopla dies down. There will be instructions from "higher ups" that will resolve the matter. Sums of money will be transferred, and certain undertakings and statements will be implemented. End of story.


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## notsuperstitious

Leviza said:


> i like it coz now you all yanks know *what Pakistanies felt about Dr Afia case in NY*... but did your media and Gov listened to what we were saying.... *i just love it now you are in the same boat...*
> 
> she didnt even fired anything on US personals and got injured herself but you justice system is so damn weak that they went for same ONE possible outcome GUILTY....... i hate this fact you people always think you are innocent ... now face the reality like true fighter......
> 
> hang this guy and get others 2 who crashed one innocent person on the road....



Aafia was caught by Pakistan and handed over to US. The same will happen here too, thats where the same boat analogy ends.


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## logic

VCheng said:


> Oh yes there is, and it will soon be "found" after the intial hoopla dies down. There will be instructions from "higher ups" that will resolve the matter. Sums of money will be transferred, and certain undertakings and statements will be implemented. End of story.



Zardari and Nawaz must be calculating how much $$$ they will charge for the entertainment of this terrorist.


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## Awesome

?Accused US diplomat holds no special privileges? | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



> LAHORE: Deputy Prosecutor General of Punjab, Rana Bakhtiar said on Sunday that Raymond Davis had fired the bullets from the back thus it was not a case of &#8216;self defense&#8217; as he had stated earlier.
> 
> Rana also said that Davis, charged with murder of two motorcyclists in Lahore, did not hold any special privileges as a diplomat.
> 
> *Referring to Article 49-2 of the Vienna Convention, he said that diplomatic officials only hold privilege when they are on duty, but Davis was in Pakistan on a business visa.*
> 
> Davis is being described by the American media as a security contractor from a Florida-based firm, Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC.
> 
> That Foreign Office and the US embassy were not on the same page on the issue of status of the accused was obvious from an FO press release that mentioned Davis as a US &#8216;functionary&#8217;, and not a diplomat.

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## DV RULES

I read in newspapers that Davis offers investigators US citizenship & green card etc. If he was clear by himself then nothing had to be worry and use of inadequate tricks to control situation. 

Court is not the power but public is power & democratic government will not go against public.

You Americans think about that we are against you? No, we are against your 3rd rated relations toward Pakistan, toward people. If you are talking about equality of human rights in your country then it is all BS & nothing else, you dipped into superiority complex. So this is the answer as sum of reaction from Pakistani people towards your inhuman behavior. 

You can respect of your inhuman court trail methods in your country but you are not ready to respect country&#8217;s law outside America. So result is clear for you. 

As you sow, so shall you reap


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## deathfromabove

*Accused US diplomat holds no special privileges​*
LAHORE: Deputy Prosecutor General of Punjab, Rana Bakhtiar said on Sunday that Raymond Davis had fired the bullets from the back thus it was not a case of self defense as he had stated earlier.

Referring to Article 49-2 of the Vienna Convention, he said that diplomatic officials only hold privilege when they are on duty, but Davis was in Pakistan on a business visa.

Davis is being described by the American media as a security contractor from a Florida-based firm, Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC.

That Foreign Office and the US embassy were not on the same page on the issue of status of the accused was obvious from an FO press release that mentioned Davis as a US functionary, and not a diplomat.

Source: DAWN News

Editors note:

Through its own sources, PKKH has found out that the two gentlemen on the bike were not robbers, but were carrying licensed weapons as the brother of one of the riders had been recently assassinated and they were carrying the weapons only for their own protection.

Raymond Allen Davis on the other hand, was driving towards an unnamed location to meet a certain personnel, however, when he spotted two armed persons on a bike, he believed he had been setup and was going to get ambushed here. He made a pre-emptive strike by killing the two persons on the bike, and later made up a story that he had shot them in self defense  which was obviously a blatant lie.

Raymond Allen Davis should first declare who it was that he was going to meet, and why he feared for his life that he had to carry an unlicensed weapon if he was merely out in Lahore on business. Since it has now also surfaced that Raymond works for a security consulting company based in the US, he is definitely involved in shady business in Pakistan because he has previously been denied diplomatic visa as our Intelligence agencies had objected to that being granted to him, due to his record of suspicious activities in Pakistan that were a threat to National Security.

The US Embassy in Pakistan should be ashamed of itself, for assailing support to a criminal and a terrorist, who moves around the streets of Lahore, Islamabad and Peshawar, carrying an unlicensed weapon and kills as he pleases. Instead, they are requesting diplomatic immunity, which means that the US Embassy in Pakistan is an accomplice in all the crimes that are being carried out inside Pakistani territory by undercover agents and/or private security firms operatives  and therefore, the US Embassy in Pakistan should either hand over the CIA Station Chief who ran away from Islamabad when his name was leaked, or should condemn the actions of Raymond Davis and deny any support to a terrorist and criminal who was caught red handed and by the laws of the Sovereign Islamic Republic of Pakistan, and deserves to be punished in accordance with the laws of Pakistan.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

This swine and his bastard countrymenwho crushed another innocent biker should be hanged from Minar e Pakistan so these swines never even think of trying something like this in the future!!!

@mr eagle!
Buddy u should be ashamed of urself for supporting a bloody murderer!

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## MM_Haider

US Ambassy is referring to Article 37, which provides immunity to the accused. Below are all the paras of Artcle 37 of the Vienna covention 1961. Please read it and tell me, if Mr Davis enjoys the inviolability:

The members of the family of a diplomatic agent forming part of his household shall, if they are not nationals of the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 36.

Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified in paragraph 1 of article 31 _*shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties.[/*I] They shall also enjoy the privileges specified in article 36, paragraph 1, in respect of articles imported at the
time of first installation.

Members of the service staff of the mission who are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State shall enjoy *immunity in respect of acts performed in the course of their duties,[/*I] exemption from dues and taxes on the emoluments they receive by reason of their employment and the
exemption contained in article 33.

Private servants of members of the mission shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, be exempt from dues and taxes on the emoluments they receive by reason of their employment. In other respects, they may *enjoy privileges and immunities only to the extent admitted by the receiving State. *However, the receiving State must exercise its jurisdiction over those persons in such a manner as not to interfere unduly with the performance of the functions of the mission.

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf_

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## American Eagle

Tell me what you are doing every single day to help families of those killed in automobile* accidents* all over Pakistan?

Your views are anarchist and ignore the root problem inside Pakistan today, growing lawlessness associated with violent acts of terrorism and acts of robbery designed to steal money and valuables to fund terrorism.

There is not and never will be a logic where the robber is guiltless and the American diplomat victum is to blame for the robber.

This starts to sound like a bunch of US trial lawyers trying to blame a person for defending themselves from death threats by armed robbers pointing guns at them.

See bullet holes again in pictures all over this Thread for days now dealing with shots fire into, from the outside, at a distance, into the American's windshield. The American diplomat defended himself against two armed robbers, open and shut. 

American is entitled to diplomatic immunity and must be returned to the US Embassy for their processes to protect and remove him from a more and more lawless society there daily.

Taking up for robbers is just plain goofy and upside down logic. Sounds like blind effort to blame life's problems on a completely innocent American diplomatic victum of attempted with armed force robbery.


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## alibaz

Some of our diplomat should kill some US citizen and then ask for diplomatic immunity. 

Absolute BS


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## American Eagle

An American diplomat defending himself from two armed robbers while he is on duty in broad daylight is covered by diplomatic immunity. End of discussion.

The US Ambassador and the US Dept. of State have made their clear cut case to the Government of Pakistan and are absolutely right in saying that Pakistan has to honor diplomatic immunity and release the American diplomat to the US Embassy for it's protection and processes.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> An American diplomate defending himself from two armed robbers while he is on duty in broad daylight is covered by diplomatic immunity.
> 
> The US Ambassador and the US Dept. of State have made their clear cut case to the Government of Pakistan and are absolutely right.in saying that Pakistan has to honor diplomatic immunity and release the American diplomat to the US Embassy for it's protection and processes.



You will be of more help to *Raymond Allen Davis the cold blooded killer aka terrorist* who executed two innocent civilians in broad daylight when you go protest outside the court at his judicial hearing.

*As for now the court will decide according to the law of the land*


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## WAQAS119

American Eagle said:


> An American diplomat defending himself from two armed robbers while he is on duty in broad daylight is covered by diplomatic immunity. End of discussion.



Wao! How simple? Are you that simple or just pretending to be so!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> Tell me what you are doing every single day to help families of those killed in automobile* accidents* all over Pakistan?



So we should release this guy coz of ur excellent logic?




> your views are anarchist and ignore the root problem inside Pakistan today, growing lawlessness associated with violent acts of terrorims and acts designed to steal money and valuables to fund terrorism.
> 
> There is not and never will be a logic where the robber is guiltless and the robber is to blame for the robber.



How do u know they were robbers?
Wat about the guy US citizens crushed to death under their SUV with fake plates?
Why was this innocent american carrying arms?
Why was he roaming in a area he was not allowed to?
After murdering those men why did he try to run if he was innocent?
Who was he going to meet?
He is not a diplomat but a contractor of a company denied visa to Pakistan!?
Why was he not following security protocol?
Why was he driving a vehicle registered in the name of some local guy?
He was arrested in the past with sopisticated weapons along 4 other us citizens while trying to enter Cantonment area with sensitive military installation?
He was also on a buisness visa not official work?so no diplomatic immunity!
In any country u cant just kill people and get immunity!?





> This starts to sound like a bunch of US trial lawyers trying to blame a person for defending themselves from death threats by armed robbers pointing guns at them.



The men shot by the david(FAG) were behind his car! So how did u know any threats were made?




> See bullet holes again in pictures all over this Thread for days now dealing with shots fire into, from the outside, at a distance, into the American's windshield. The American diplomat defended himself against two armed robbers, open and shut.



Funny he stepped out of the vehicle after murdering them....Took the pictures of the dead victims and tried to run.......while another SUV carrying US citizens tried too rescue him and in the mean time killed anther innocent bike rider and ran without even caring abt the guy they had just crushed?
PATHETIC.



> American is entitled to diplomatic immunity and must be returned to the US Embassy for their processes to protect and remove him from a more and more lawless society there daily.



Wat diplomatic immunity? we all know ur goofy crap........ United states of Hypocrites!

Ur recent example of hypocrisy is Joe biden supporting a tyrant(husni mubarak) in eygpt!



> Taking up for robbers is just plain goofy and upside down logic. Sounds like blind effort to blame life's problems on a completely innocent American diplomatic victum of attempted with armed force robbery.



Instead of ranting tell us the reason for which ur american murderer was not following any law of the land?

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## Truth Teller

American Eagle,

Why are you defending this guy? We don't hate him because he's American. We hate him because he is a murderder of two young Pakistanis!

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## alibaz

Court of law will decide his fate. Was he supposed to carry weapon. I don't think there any need to show emotions and arrogance by US officials. According to Pakistani foreign office Mr Davis was on visit visa and did not have diplomatic immunity. However US officials say, Davis was a diplomat. The way guy opened fired clearly show that he was a trained shooter who took a preemptive action


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## logic

Truth Teller said:


> American Eagle,
> 
> Why are you defending this guy? We don't hate him because he's American. We hate him because he is a murderder of two young Pakistanis!



Just a little correction.
We do not hate Americans.
We do not hate Raymond Allen Davis as a person.
*
WE HATE THE CRIME HE COMMITED*

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## American Eagle

Mr. Davis commited no crime...he faced armed robbers who threatened him. That was the crime. He merely defended himself to protect and save his own life. He has diplomatic immunity.

Your failure to deal with robbers, Pakistani robbers, trying to rob and harm Mr. Davis is a bafflement to the entire world.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis commited no crime...he faced armed robbers who threatened him. That was the crime. He merely defended himself to protect and save his own life. He has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Your failure to deal with robbers, Pakistani robbers, trying to rob and harm Mr. Davis is a bafflement to the entire world.



Forget everything just tell me why was he carrying an illegal weapon,somebdy elses vehicle and roaming in place he was not allowed to and not following proper protocol?

Also explain the fake number plated suv tht killed another innocent guy?

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## alibaz

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis commited no crime...he faced armed robbers who threatened him. That was the crime. He merely defended himself to protect and save his own life. He has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Your failure to deal with robbers, Pakistani robbers, trying to rob and harm Mr. Davis is a bafflement to the entire world.



Courts will establish fact but your last two lines are unnecessary.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis commited no crime...he faced armed robbers who threatened him. That was the crime. He merely defended himself to protect and save his own life. He has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Your failure to deal with robbers, Pakistani robbers, trying to rob and harm Mr. Davis is a bafflement to the entire world.



This idea is a bafflement to the entire world 
that any tom dick harry
can go on a rampage and kill innocent people

And then show his *BLUE PETER BADGE* as a get out of jail card.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hey eagle answer my questions.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis commited no crime...he faced armed robbers who threatened him. That was the crime. He merely defended himself to protect and save his own life. He has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Your failure to deal with robbers, Pakistani robbers, trying to rob and harm Mr. Davis is a bafflement to the entire world.



I can understand your love for your countrymen Be that for retard criminals even but Dear American Eagle this is not a Delta Force Military Action in Iraq or Afghanistan and Davis is not your friendly soldier whom's back you are protecting.

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## Pak_Sher

RescueRanger said:


> I have a Garmin Navigator with Pakistan Maps installed in my wife's car for convenience.. Does that make her a covert agent too?
> 
> As for face mask, that is not really relevant, the embassy could just say that they provide all staff with minimum PPE: Personal Protective Equipment.
> 
> The weapons, that is the contentious issue here..



Yes, if your wife is not a Pakistani citizen and is on a foreign visa without permission in a location with illegal weapons with no explanation then she may fall in the same scenario. And if she kills 3 people on top of that aand admits that she was on a task that we investigate it thorough instead of acting like bozoo the clown.


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## Irfan Baloch

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis commited no crime...he faced armed robbers who threatened him. That was the crime. He merely defended himself to protect and save his own life. He has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Your failure to deal with robbers, Pakistani robbers, trying to rob and harm Mr. Davis is a bafflement to the entire world.



sir he shot them in the back according to the post mortem report.. its hard to prove in the court of law as a self defence.
what about the 3rd victim crushed to death..? American Embassy is hiding the culprit driver who ran away from the scene going by your logic any foreign diplomat can pull out the gun and start shooting and running over people in America not sure if rest of America will care about the diplomatic immunity or the Geneva accord.

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## nk7115

This is what happens when you sellout. Americans are pouring money and buying your leaders, while the people of Pakistan are sitting in their homes. O' my sleeping beauties wake up your country is being sold, and your children are about to become slaves, break these shackles and chains and learn from Egyptians before it is too late.


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## khanz

pakistan grow some balls and hang him maybe it'll teach them a lesson.

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## Cynic Waheed

For those justifying his diplomatic status, a copy of his visa:


Arrested US national does not have diplomatic visa: Documents | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

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## Irfan Baloch

nk7115 said:


> This is what happens when you sellout. Americans are pouring money and buying your leaders, while the people of Pakistan are sitting in their homes. O' my sleeping beauties wake up your country is being sold, and your children are about to become slaves, break these shackles and chains and learn from Egyptians before it is too late.




thanks

you just woke us all up. I will just buy back my children from Americans.. Not sure who they paid the money to&#8230;

all

please refrain from name calling.. lets condemn the crime not the American nation. Lets hope our justice system holds its bottle and decides on fair bases. In any case the American will get the presidential pardon. But the least we can do is submit our protest in a civilised manner and have faith in our judiciary.

Lets not play at the hands of anarchists and trouble makers and don&#8217;t derail this thread into flame war

@ Cynic Waheed
sir you pretty much settled it.. thanks

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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> For those justifying his diplomatic status, .....



Look, we all know that his status will be whatever the US Department of State via the US Embassy in Pakistan says it is, and we have heard from them. The government of Pakistan has not the backbone or any abiding national interest to say or do anything different, we all know that too.

This means that only if the US Embassy chooses to abandon its stance in support for whatever covert reason, Mr. Davis will go down, otherwise he will be returned safe and sound relatively soon.

All this hyperbole and screaming and shouting from both sides is quite unnecessary.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Can we ever have free n fair judicial system?


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## Patriot

What i have observed is someone inside Foreign Office is not happy and sources already leaking enough to expose this Davis guy.


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## DV RULES

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Can we ever have free n fair judicial system?



Hard to believe, because all depends upon decisions of federal bodies.


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## DV RULES

Patriot said:


> What i have observed is someone inside Foreign Office is not happy and sources already leaking enough to expose this Davis guy.



He must be exposed & reality has to be opened.


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## Leviza

DV RULES said:


> Hard to believe, because all depends upon decisions of federal bodies.



federal bodies dont want to take the bad name here.... they are saying 2 things case is with punjab gov and is in court so nothing can be done.... you know sometimes internal political conditions becomes important and no one wanna take bad name from this case as gov is weak and they might need to go for election anytime soon
Also any party leave gov then there is no gov so they will put all responsibility on punjab gov and punjab gov have already taken the steps.... so chill and see.....................

nation wants justice and thats all..........


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## pakdefender

This guy is just a low life thug and has blood on his hands, he is no diplomat , the courts must punish him.

Just observe his behaviour in the vidoes after he had killed two and run over the thrid , no remorse , no concern , walking about with hands in his pocket , stepping out of his car and threatening by standers.. its as if this bastard was thinking that he can do whatever he wants!

He's a dirty low life blackwater-type contractor and the courts must make an example out of this scum bag


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Look, we all know that his status will be whatever the US Department of State via the US Embassy in Pakistan says it is, and we have heard from them. The government of Pakistan has not the backbone or any abiding national interest to say or do anything different, we all know that too.
> 
> This means that only if the US Embassy chooses to abandon its stance in support for whatever covert reason, Mr. Davis will go down, otherwise he will be returned safe and sound relatively soon.
> 
> All this hyperbole and screaming and shouting from both sides is quite unnecessary.



I know our spineless government very well. The point am trying to get across is not wheter hell be punished or not but to remove any ambiguity on his status. Plus it doesnt mattar what US or Pak gov says, the court will see this stamp and decide On his status. We fought for this justice system over years, its time they deliver justice on merit. Thanks.

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## American Eagle

Diplomatic immunity for and of a US diplomatic employee in Pakistan coupled with two robbers with history as robbers trying to hold him up at gun point (both crooks had guns) leaves everyone yelling on here with a foolish position of favoring crooks and law breakers over a self defense victum of attempted crime with shooting violence on his person.

Get some rest and by 1 Feb. the complete and clear facts will be known and all this fake posturing will end.

Meanwhile how about a little respect for the continued loss of innocent Pakistani life to terrorist suicide bombers?

These al Qaida inspired radical Taliban elements aren't going away and will take you down if you don't get in line with their heretical to Islam ideology. Talk about blasphemy laws, if such will ever be used then getting rid of the terrorists who are blasphemers of the first order comes first.


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## Imran Khan

now someone tell me what will happen if a pakistani diplomat shootout in USA for protect himself?


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## American Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> now someone tell me what will happen if a pakistani diplomat shootout in USA for protect himself?



I would hope no diplomat from Pakistan serving here in the USA would have to face armed criminals in a hold up and threat on his life event.

However, I can assure you that in the US self defense is allowed. And if a diplomat shot and killed an armed robber the Pakistani diplomat would not be arrested nor jailed if they claimed Diplomatic Immunity. Nor would there be a firestorm of false allegations against the poor innocent victum of attempted armed robbery.


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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> Diplomatic immunity for and of a US diplomatic employee in Pakistan coupled with two robbers with history as robbers trying to hold him up at gun point (both crooks had guns) leaves everyone yelling on here with a foolish position of favoring crooks and law breakers over a self defense victum of attempted crime with shooting violence on his person.
> 
> Get some rest and by 1 Feb. the complete and clear facts will be known and all this fake posturing will end.
> 
> Meanwhile how about a little respect for the continued loss of innocent Pakistani life to terrorist suicide bombers?
> 
> These al Qaida inspired radical Taliban elements aren't going away and will take you down if you don't get in line with their heretical to Islam ideology. Talk about blasphemy laws, if such will ever be used then getting rid of the terrorists who are blasphemers of the first order comes first.



Tell me how, two men, shot in the backs were a threat.........both man had legal rights to Firearms, and were licence holders, they don;t need a reason for carrying firearms as they had a license unlike the US contractor who was carrying an UNLICENSED firearm with UNLICENSED ammunition..........he has then ran over an innocent man in order to made goo dhis escape following his scene of terror attack...........the point here and thread here is the Official killing three Pakistanis, if you wish to raise other points, then please start a new thread or go away..........


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## Cynic Waheed

American Eagle said:


> Diplomatic immunity for and of a US diplomatic employee in Pakistan coupled with two robbers with history as robbers trying to hold him up at gun point (both crooks had guns) leaves everyone yelling on here with a foolish position of favoring crooks and law breakers over a self defense victum of attempted crime with shooting violence on his person.
> 
> Get some rest and by 1 Feb. the complete and clear facts will be known and all this fake posturing will end.
> 
> Meanwhile how about a little respect for the continued loss of innocent Pakistani life to terrorist suicide bombers?
> 
> These al Qaida inspired radical Taliban elements aren't going away and will take you down if you don't get in line with their heretical to Islam ideology. Talk about blasphemy laws, if such will ever be used then getting rid of the terrorists who are blasphemers of the first order comes first.



Please stop repeating ur self like a broken record. We all here know exactly what ur POV is because u have repeated it a million times stop wasting precious space of defence.pk
by repeating urself again and again. We respect ur opinion and understand u completely. Please have the patience to understand us too. This is an active investigation abd case is in the courts and lets wait and see what happens rather than argue on our assumptions. And rest assured either way ur man will go safely back to ur hometown even if it takes presidential pardon. 

Finally stop attacking us on hiw we feel abt suicide bombings and what our thoughts are. We are not insensitive to these attacks. Its in ur head that we are like that, sort it out. Stop insulting and bring quality to ur posts rather than quantity and insults. Dont mix other topics and provide logical arguements only rather then personal attacks. I expect more from a man ur age. Thanks.

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## American Eagle

Third death is caused by accident of vehicles and guy on a motor cycle...even though the title of this whole thread refers to 3 killed by American, that is a false statement and almost everyone writing on this topic, pro or con, separates the third traffic death out...only the extemists keep including it to stir up hate and friciton, as it is untrue and absolutely false.

What are you doing do reduce vehicular deaths every day in Pakistan?

Pakistan, the US, all nations have people killed in vehicular accidents every day, all year around, unpleasant as that fact is...it is the price of driving in our crazy traffic world.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> Third death is caused by accident of vehicles and guy on a motor cycle...even though the title of this whole thread refers to 3 killed by American, that is a false statement and almost everyone writing on this topic, pro or con, separates the third traffic death out...only the extemists keep including it to stir up hate and friciton, as it is untrue and absolutely false.
> 
> What are you doing do reduce vehicular deaths every day in Pakistan?
> 
> Pakistan, the US, all nations have people killed in vehicular accidents every day, all year around, unpleasant as that fact is...it is the price of driving in our crazy traffic world.



Cough... cough...... horse shyt...... cough .... cough.


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## Cynic Waheed

American Eagle said:


> What are you doing do reduce vehicular deaths every day in Pakistan?.



We are tryin to send such people to jail, esp those who drive on a one way road on the opposite side recklessly. Stop protecting them under immunity shield be men enough to allow the judicial system to take its natural course and hand him over. Dont be a hinderence, be helpful to us. If u r abetting such careless drivers urself, then u have no right to mock us. Stop contradicting urself when u do one thing and say the opposite. U cant have it both ways.


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## fida jan

American Eagle said:


> I would hope no diplomat from Pakistan serving here in the USA would have to face armed criminals in a hold up and threat on his life event.
> 
> However, I can assure you that in the US self defense is allowed. And if a diplomat shot and killed an armed robber the Pakistani diplomat would not be arrested nor jailed if they claimed Diplomatic Immunity. Nor would there be a firestorm of false allegations against the poor innocent victum of attempted armed robbery.



brother, pakistan is very bad evil country, we are just bunch of criminals and terrorists, and the angel americans are spreading peace and democracy in afghanistan, afghanistan and pakistan never saw such wonderful peace before... are you happy now..

and we more than happy if US kicks us out of its alliance, we dont deserve one, US deserves better, like china, russia, those non criminal non terrorist countries, turkey is bad too, they r terrorists, infact all muslims are turban head, burka wearers, midiveal terrorists and US deserves better

now it would be better if u get the out of afghanistan and pakistan as a whole both for us and you, no one invites you here, ok?? comprender???

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the Americans assured Pakistan to offer full cooperation, but I am still waiting for the operator of the Land Cruiser to surrender himself or at least have his location/whereabouts disclosed so he can answer to the courts.

hit & run is a felony in the US and in most countries.........it is quite annoying when foreigners think they can do as they please in the host country; especially when it involves peoples lives

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## Abu Zolfiqar

American Eagle said:


> What are you doing do reduce vehicular deaths every day in Pakistan?
> 
> Pakistan, the US, all nations have people killed in vehicular accidents every day, all year around, unpleasant as that fact is...it is the price of driving in our crazy traffic world.



this shouldnt even be dignified with a response

nice try though, sir, to deflect the attention and bring up traffic enforcement here

but since you did ask, have you heard of Islamabad (and especially Motorway) trafficpolice? A success story, even by western standards.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

hey American Eagle --- how would you have reacted if that Russian diplomat who drunkenly crashed his car @ Dupont Circle (here in US capital) and got away scott-free?

you'd shrug your shoulder and ignore it?

that incident also included a fatality and several major injuries


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## ThunderCat

TIME OUT GUYS.

I found something else that should be of interest. Don't know how true it is but i've bolded the important part of the article: (if already posted then mods/admins are requested to delete my post)

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



> By Ikram Junaidi
> 
> ISLAMABAD: It has been a routine that diplomats and embassy officials in the federal capital violate laws while police pressurises the harmed citizens for a patch up.
> 
> The episode of US Consulates Raymond Davis can be termed as an extraordinary incident as he was involved in gun totting and shooting, otherwise it would have been hushed up in the name of diplomatic immunity. According to sources, on Saturday night a diplomat not only violated a traffic signal but also hit and injured a man. Swiss diplomat, Snyveanne Moundllet, jumped a traffic signal at Radio Pakistan Chowk in her car and hit a watchman, Mahfooz, who was riding a cycle. He was taken to a nearby hospital. Soon after the treatment, police informed him that the diplomat wanted a patch-up and he has to give in writing that he didnt want to file a case against her.
> 
> Sources said police did not arrest the women nor bothered to seize her car despite the fact that the vehicle bore an ordinary registration number. Sources said, on July 25, 2010, a diplomat had killed Jawadur Rehman on Seventh Avenue. On October 28, 2010, an under secretary of the US embassy had knocked down Rahmatullah, an employee of CDA. In both the cases police forced the affected citizens to make a deal, they added.
> 
> The Lahore incident will be another example, if it is proved that Davis victims were not robbers, Punjab Police will force their families and relatives of the motorbike rider, who as crushed by a car driven by the consulates driver to patch up with the killers.
> 
> *Davis had a very bad repute among the officials of federal police. Whenever officials wanted to check his vehicle he abused them. Police officials suspected that Davis carried weapons and a wireless set in his car but he never allowed anyone to check it. Davis joined the US marine force, but later switched over to FBI and served in Iraq and Afghanistan from where he came to Pakistan. He has been living in the country for the last 22 months.
> *
> The embassy has declared him a diplomat and said that the Lahore police violated the Vienna Convention by arresting a diplomat.
> 
> When contacted, Advocate Razzaq said according to Pakistans law a case could be filed against a diplomatic agent if he indulged in any activity outside his official functions.He said Vienna Convention required diplomats that it was duty of all persons enjoying privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving state.


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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> hey American Eagle --- how would you have reacted if that Russian diplomat who drunkenly crashed his car @ Dupont Circle (here in US capital) and got away scott-free?
> 
> you'd shrug your shoulder and ignore it?
> 
> that incident also included a fatality and several major injuries



Abu Zolfiqar: I am sure that while drawing analogies and parallels is morally justified, being "first amongst equals" virtually guarantees, in this case at least, a grossly asymmetric outcome. Painful, but the truth nonetheless, no?

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## ThunderCat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the Americans assured Pakistan to offer full cooperation, but I am still waiting for the operator of the Land Cruiser to surrender himself or at least have his location/whereabouts disclosed so he can answer to the courts.
> 
> hit & run is a felony in the US and in most countries.........it is quite annoying when foreigners think they can do as they please in the host country; especially when it involves peoples lives



I read that his hand over has been requested to the US embassy if not then the police has claimed they will seek arrest warrants from the courts to arrest him.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Lahore shooting: Some questions
By Ejaz Haider
Published: January 31, 2011

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution's Foreign Policy Studies Programme


Two boys shot dead by Raymond Davis, an American national, in the Mozang area of Lahore; one biker crushed to death by a speeding US consulate vehicle that arrives on the scene presumably to rescue Davis, who tries to escape but is captured. The consulate vehicle escapes after overrunning the unfortunate biker.
The incident has left a trail of three bodies and several questions.
Who is Davis &#8212; accredited diplomat or a civilian contracted by the US consulate for &#8216;technical advice&#8217;, a term that can cover a broad range of activities? Why was he carrying a pistol, a Glock 17 I am told, which is a 9mm semi-automatic weapon that packs the punch with 17 rounds in a standard magazine. It is used by pros and Davis does seem like one.
Why did Davis try to run away from the scene after displaying the calm ability to shoot a pistol with a steady hand, get out of the car, make a video of the bodies, and talk to someone on the wireless?
From what&#8217;s known so far, it does not appear that the killed boys intended to shoot Davis. They were carrying local-made pistols (terrible choice); one didn&#8217;t have bullets in it, while the other had five rounds of local ammo, another bad amateur choice. There is no indication that they tried to fire at Davis. It is interesting to note where Davis fired from, in what direction and where the boys took the bullets.
Davis fired from inside his car, slightly above the steering wheel and towards the right. That would mean the boys were parked ahead of his car, probably close to the right edge of the bonnet. Not exactly the right place if you want to shoot down a driver. Most of the bullets, it appears from the autopsy, entered their bodies from the back &#8212; that would mean they were facing away from the shooter, or were trying to escape at the time they were shot down. If this is correct then, at least at the moment Davis shot them, they were not a threat to his life. Itchy fingers perhaps?
One source told me the ammo he used was hollow-point; another says it was ballpoint. With hollow-point the boys stood no chance at all. The round enters the body and flattens, causing terrible tissue damage.
Glock pistols have a two-stage trigger safety mechanism because there is no external safety catch. The weapon will fire when the trigger is depressed normally beyond the first stage afforded by the internal trigger safety mechanism. Why did he fire 7 shots if the idea was to incapacitate? Since Davis has claimed self-defence he will have to prove that his life was in grave danger when he shot the boys.
People are angry. There is a sense, not entirely wrong, that Americans act haughty, even though the blame for this must go to Pakistani governments. If the governments fail to observe the protocols, too eager to roll out the red carpet even for lower ranking American officials, one can&#8217;t blame the Americans for taking Pakistan for granted.
Consider the attitude of the public affairs officers at the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore. They have refused to ID Davis. Instead of helping in investigating the killing of three Pakistanis, the US embassy has now demanded that this guy be immediately released. And pray, how and why, unless all these questions are answered? The government should clarify when, how, why, and if at all, a foreign national can carry a weapon? What exactly is the status of this man, his ID and the nature of his work here? What is the protocol for the movement of American nationals, whether in official or personal capacity? Are the Americans using SOPs for their protection that may violate local laws? If so, why?
The government should set up a website, giving information on all legal and other questions thrown up by this violent incident. It must also tell the people why the US embassy has made such a demand. The US government cannot spring the guy until all legal issues are settled. Neither can the federal and Punjab governments afford to let him walk away just like that.
Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2011.

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## American Eagle

No anti-American writers opinions here have the weight of Internation Law and Treaties which define and provide immunity to a diplomat. A hard fact, so please don't waste your time trying to "try" a factually unknown robbery upon an innocent American in the Pakistani media here. 

Some writers on this site over this weekend have made comments about whether the American was fired on from outside his car by the two robbers vs. whether the American fired at the gun pointing robbers from inside his car windshield. 

In either case you other writers on PDF who wishfully want to blame the American diplomat who faced two armed robbers who threatened his life are flatly wrong and don&#8217;t know the gun and bullet facts whatsoever. 

In terms of physical facts of what happens to a bullet whether fired from outside the windshield at a distance into the car or from inside the windshield fired at a target some distance from the car take note. The bullet is deflected by the angle of the windshield and the bullet is partially disintegrated trying to pass through the laminated glass.

*Made up comments about hollow point bullets have no basis in fact here whatsoever. * Such allegations are wild eyed statements made up by writers on this site this weekend. 

However, for the public&#8217;s awareness a hollow point bullet fired either from outside the car windshield into the car or from inside the car out through the laminated windshield has the same outcome. *It disintegrates when hitting and trying to penetrate the laminated windshield glass*. 

*To restate, use of a hollow point bullet is futile fired either from inside and out through a laminated windshield or if fired at a distance from outside and in through a laminated windshield.*

The angle of deflection no matter whether the bullet is fired outside into or inside out of a car laminated windshield &#8220;ruins&#8221; aim. *Bullets disintegrate and the aim is unpredictable due to the angle of a windshield.*

EXAMPLE SCENARIO: A robber is trapped in traffic and is forced to fire from outside a vehicle into the passenger compartment through the laminated windshield glass.

A single round is fired, but there are three holes in the target laminated windshield.

Why?

Because laminated glass is particularly hard on bullets. It can sometimes strip parts of the bullet jacket off of the lead core, reducing the bullet's effectiveness on the anatomy of a human being. In some instances when the bullet is fired at a distance into or out of the windshield the laminated glass can effectively dissipate the bullet so that it effectively disintegrates in going through the laminated windshield glass.

In summary when shooting out or in through the laminated windshield into the passenger compartment of a vehicle, you need to keep three things in mind:

1. Laminated glass and the angle of the windshield will cause your round to deflect away from your point of aim. How much depends on the angle of the windshield and the weight of the bullet you are using. 

2. When fired through laminated glass, bullets tend to partially fragment, reducing the effectiveness of the bullet and causing there to be secondary projectiles (bullet jackets, glass, etc) that can impact * other parts of the vehicle such as shooting through and knocking out the rear window of the vehicle. *

3. When firing a bullet into a passenger compartment, there is no guarantee that it will hit the target you intend to hit. The residual bullet fragment may well pass wide of the intended target and go out through the rear window of the car.

A particular fact comes from this discourse. *No hollow point bullets were used*. Period. Pure b.s. folks have made up to smear the put upon American diplomat victum of a two armed robber Pakisani team who clearly threatened his life and limb with their weapons.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Eagle i feel sorry for u making pathetic excuses and diverting the topic.
These bastards............ the shooter and those who ran over the bike rider should be hanged and the bodies should be handed over to u.


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## Pak_Sher

American Eagle said:


> No anti-American writers opinions here have the weight of Internation Law and Treaties which define and provide immunity to a diplomat. A hard fact, so please don't waste your time trying to "try" a factually unknown robbery upon an innocent American in the Pakistani media here.
> 
> Some writers on this site over this weekend have made comments about whether the American was fired on from outside his car by the two robbers vs. whether the American fired at the gun pointing robbers from inside his car windshield.
> 
> In either case you other writers on PDF who wishfully want to blame the American diplomat who faced two armed robbers who threatened his life are flatly wrong and dont know the gun and bullet facts whatsoever.
> 
> In terms of physical facts of what happens to a bullet whether fired from outside the windshield at a distance into the car or from inside the windshield fired at a target some distance from the car take note. The bullet is deflected by the angle of the windshield and the bullet is partially disintegrated trying to pass through the laminated glass.
> 
> *Made up comments about hollow point bullets have no basis in fact here whatsoever. * Such allegations are wild eyed statements made up by writers on this site this weekend.
> 
> However, for the publics awareness a hollow point bullet fired either from outside the car windshield into the car or from inside the car out through the laminated windshield has the same outcome. *It disintegrates when hitting and trying to penetrate the laminated windshield glass*.
> 
> *To restate, use of a hollow point bullet is futile fired either from inside and out through a laminated windshield or if fired at a distance from outside and in through a laminated windshield.*
> 
> The angle of deflection no matter whether the bullet is fired outside into or inside out of a car laminated windshield ruins aim. *Bullets disintegrate and the aim is unpredictable due to the angle of a windshield.*
> 
> EXAMPLE SCENARIO: A robber is trapped in traffic and is forced to fire from outside a vehicle into the passenger compartment through the laminated windshield glass.
> 
> A single round is fired, but there are three holes in the target laminated windshield.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because laminated glass is particularly hard on bullets. It can sometimes strip parts of the bullet jacket off of the lead core, reducing the bullet's effectiveness on the anatomy of a human being. In some instances when the bullet is fired at a distance into or out of the windshield the laminated glass can effectively dissipate the bullet so that it effectively disintegrates in going through the laminated windshield glass.
> 
> In summary when shooting out or in through the laminated windshield into the passenger compartment of a vehicle, you need to keep three things in mind:
> 
> 1. Laminated glass and the angle of the windshield will cause your round to deflect away from your point of aim. How much depends on the angle of the windshield and the weight of the bullet you are using.
> 
> 2. When fired through laminated glass, bullets tend to partially fragment, reducing the effectiveness of the bullet and causing there to be secondary projectiles (bullet jackets, glass, etc) that can impact * other parts of the vehicle such as shooting through and knocking out the rear window of the vehicle. *
> 
> 3. When firing a bullet into a passenger compartment, there is no guarantee that it will hit the target you intend to hit. The residual bullet fragment may well pass wide of the intended target and go out through the rear window of the car.
> 
> A particular fact comes from this discourse. *No hollow point bullets were used*. Period. Pure b.s. folks have made up to smear the put upon American diplomat victum of a two armed robber Pakisani team who clearly threatened his life and limb with their weapons.



OK, lets agree for a second that what ever you stated here is true. The robbers pointed guns and he shot them dead.

(01) According to the diplomatic protocol why the accused Davis did not obtain permission before visiting the area where he got in this trouble?

(02) And why he had fake license plates?

(03) And why he withdrew money Pakistani currency in 6 figures before he reached the spot?

(04) Why he was carrying cameras and an illegal firearm?

Since you are acting like his attorney you better have solid answers.

One thing is clear is that Americans when it come to them start pointing out all the rule regulations that they never follow themselves.

Like the American message of democracy only in the US and support of kings, dictators and non-democratic practices all over the globe.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pak_Sher said:


> OK, lets agree for a second that what ever you stated here is true. The robbers pointed guns and he shot them dead.
> 
> (01) According to the diplomatic protocol why the accused Davis did not obtain permission before visiting the area where he got in this trouble?
> 
> (02) And why he had fake license plates?
> 
> (03) And why he withdrew money Pakistani currency in 6 figures before he reached the spot?
> 
> (04) Why he was carrying cameras and an illegal firearm?
> 
> Since you are acting like his attorney you better have solid answers.
> 
> One thing is clear is that Americans when it come to them start pointing out all the rule regulations that they never follow themselves.
> 
> Like the American message of democracy only in the US and support of kings, dictators and non-democratic practices all over the globe.



Forgot abt his escape attempt after killing them and taking their pics nd talkin to someone on his wireless.........nd the us embassy vehicle tht came to his rescue nd killed another innocent guy and escaped?


Also his visa was shown on tv....... he got no f..king immunity.

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## Thomas

perfect example of lynch mob mentality.

Thousands in Pakistan rally against American - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com 

"The protest leaders paraded two men who they said were brothers of the shooting victims. The men joined protesters in shouting "any friend of America is a traitor." *Others held signs that said "Punish the American Killer" and "Hang this American in Public."*


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## American Eagle

Pak Sher's attempt at a degree of civility is appreciated.

The presumptions or assumptions you have listed do not factually exist whatsoever, at all. They are further evidence of made up statements meant to inflame ignorant public opinion against an American diplomat who faced two armed robbers in Lahore, the day after a terrorist suicide bomber killed 35 and wounded over 180 Paksitani innocent men, women, and children.

The points I raised were in response to previous false allegations in the preceeding article before I wrote these analogies, not something I pulled out of the air to blather on about.

It may be difficult in a time of war to love your allies, but to love your enemies makes no sense whatsoever. Robber are your enemy, as well as ours as in this case.

We are perhaps hours away from a comprehensive Paksitani Assembly Interior Affairs Committee meeting involving the focused issue of diplomatic immunity. All this speculation, and especially made up stuff, will end thereafter.

Those who continue to want to harbor ill will or hatred toward this American diplomat or the war on terrorism in general need to get focused on the fact that a determined heretical religious effort will not simply go away because folks wish it would do so. 

I believe, my opinion, that it has been a huge mistake for many years to have allowed the Northern areas, FATA, SWAT, NWFP, as well as North and South Balochistan go unattended to in a share and share alike sense of benefit of jobs, industrial and business development, more and better free....not religious....education...and a one size fits all non-ethnic bias policy to start all peoples in Pakistan working toward a common national identity with a recreational, cultural hurrah for everyone's then differing tribal and other backgrounds...as only a fun cultural factor...since equality in fact is sorely need among all Pakistanis now and in the indefinite future.

Again, thank you for your degree of civility intended here.


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## Pak_Sher

I personally wish at this very moment that they let the American Go. Though it will free the American but definately help bring down the government quickly in days. There are enough people pissed off in Pakistan already and this could be a start of downfall of Zardari. Though the tide from Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen may have arrived a little later, but definately freeing Davis will help crash the government in the coming days.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Im sorry sir u can kill more pakistanis....... our blood is cheap.............. u happy now?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Thomas said:


> perfect example of lynch mob mentality.
> 
> Thousands in Pakistan rally against American - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com
> 
> "The protest leaders paraded two men who they said were brothers of the shooting victims. The men joined protesters in shouting "any friend of America is a traitor." *Others held signs that said "Punish the American Killer" and "Hang this American in Public."*



Yeah they should have thanked those bastards who killed 3 guy? right.


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## American Eagle

I generally know educated Pakistanis in first hand experience to be pretty good at advanced math.

This said lets address the huge number of murdered and maimed/wounded Pakistanis have been at the hands of fellow Pakistanis who are heretical religious thugs, the radical form of the Taliban and Al Qaida. This is where the real numbers are of innocent Muslims Paksitanis put upon, murdered and maimed, by religious heretics to peaceful Islam who claim to be "good Paksitanis." 

Just to keep the big picture facts straight.

Question is why do Pakistanis as measured on this site, PDF, show so little condoences interest in the Lahore day before the American incident suicide bomber and his allies who put togther the murder of 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, with 180 more Pakitanis wounded severely.

Heretics to Islam are in abundance but public outcry against them is just not visible nor audible to the free world at large. Wonder why? As a Christian in our modern day world I have long accepted the wish and desire of my Muslim Pakistani friends both still in Pakistan and here where I live in the USA to maintain the image and desire of Islam as defined as meaning Peace.

Peace be with those of you who want peaces and do not try to defame innocent American Mr. Davis who was attcked by armed robbers in a failed hold up attempt...which robbers had shortly before attacking Davis robbed a native Paksitani man nearby thre in Lahore the same day.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Tell me what you are doing every single day to help families of those killed in automobile* accidents* all over Pakistan?



If we get the call, we attend, triage, stabilize on scene, if the condition is critical they are transported to the nearest hospital. And we do that on a DAILY basis.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> I generally know educated Pakistanis in first hand experience to be pretty good at advanced math.
> 
> This said lets address the huge number of murdered and maimed/wounded Pakistanis have been at the hands of fellow Pakistanis who are heretical religious thugs, the radical form of the Taliban and Al Qaida. This is where the real numbers are of innocent Muslims Paksitanis put upon, murdered and maimed, by religious heretics to peaceful Islam who claim to be "good Paksitanis."
> 
> Just to keep the big picture facts straight.
> 
> Question is why do Pakistanis as measured on this site, PDF, show so little condoences interest in the Lahore day before the American incident suicide bomber and his allies who put togther the murder of 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, with 180 more Pakitanis wounded severely.
> 
> Heretics of Islam are in abundance but public outcry against them is just not visible nor audible to the free world at large. Wonder why?



Does this justify the killings of pakistanis by us officials in our own country?

Who created taliban to fight USSR?We all know tht!!

So dont rant if u dont have anything constructive to say instead of posting crap.


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## GEMINI

Shall be interesting to see if any pakistani comits a similar crime in US. Will these advocates carry out such lame point raising then? or they will cloe their eyes and start pointing muslim terrorist. Actually it was a classical example of the world's most civilised terror state in action, with a change that this time, caught by the people red handed.

Anyways, i believe that some how the criminal shall have a way out. Its not a matter of only one crime but th matter of "Iqtidar e Ala" in Pakistan.
An eye opener.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> I generally know educated Pakistanis in first hand experience to be pretty good at advanced math.
> 
> This said lets address the huge number of murdered and maimed/wounded Pakistanis have been at the hands of fellow Pakistanis who are heretical religious thugs, the radical form of the Taliban and Al Qaida. This is where the real numbers are of innocent Muslims Paksitanis put upon, murdered and maimed, by religious heretics to peaceful Islam who claim to be "good Paksitanis."
> 
> Just to keep the big picture facts straight.
> 
> Question is why do Pakistanis as measured on this site, PDF, show so little condoences interest in the Lahore day before the American incident suicide bomber and his allies who put togther the murder of 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, with 180 more Pakitanis wounded severely.
> 
> Heretics of Islam are in abundance but public outcry against them is just not visible nor audible to the free world at large. Wonder why?



/end rant...

/run script "constructive" discussion

[ERROR]

All you have been doing since page 6 is ranting... Give it a rest will you.

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## flameboard

Not all diplomats receive all types of diplomatic immunities. Some might not even any diplomatic immunity. It depends on what his status was and what immunity if any he received but now the US is demanding him back immediately.

Time for mass rallies.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Cynic Waheed said:


> For those justifying his diplomatic status, a copy of his visa:
> 
> 
> Arrested US national does not have diplomatic visa: Documents | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



Link got removed.............................


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## DESERT FIGHTER

If gop releases this bastard nd doesnt arrest the suv driver......... its days will be numbered............ another tunisia.


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## RescueRanger

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Link got removed.............................



Lol.. Pakistan at its best.

They even removed the clip of the letter from the Embassy to the F.O requesting a Non Diplomatic ID for him..

sigh...


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

RescueRanger said:


> Lol.. Pakistan at its best.
> 
> *They even removed the clip of the letter from the Embassy to the F.O requesting a Non Diplomatic ID for him.*.
> 
> sigh...



So ,does that settle the fact that he was no diplomat?Why is the SUV driver not in custody? Is he a diplomat too? I dont see any americans here having a problem with that............... Why is that???????


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## RescueRanger

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> So ,does that settle the fact that he was no diplomat?Why is the SUV driver not in custody? Is he a diplomat too? I dont see any americans here having a problem with that............... Why is that???????



According to Lahore Consulate Spokesperson Mr. Rodriguez, the matter is very "sensitive".

Uh, hello.. You said the driver was a Pakistani then Pakistan has jurisdiction over him, hand him the hell over... I agree with you, it's all murky and too tangled.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal



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## RescueRanger

There we have it, that is no DIPLOMATIC visa. Case closed.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

RescueRanger said:


> There we have it, that is no DIPLOMATIC visa. Case closed.



Lol the crusader wont accept it bro....


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## Roybot

tareymareyikmarzi said:


>



Is that the visa of Raymond Davis?

Cause if it is it says *Date of Issue: 15 Sep 2009
Good for Journey Upto: 15 Dec 2009
Number of Visits Allowed: Single
Duration of Each stay: 3 Months*

So this American "Diplomat" was in Pakistan illegally? 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just found this link with the "photo of Davis' Visa"

http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/31/arrested-us-national-does-not-have-diplomatic-visa-documents.html

So am guessing Dawn is reporting fake news ?


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## Luftwaffe

Thankyou for the updates, Whether American or Pakistani driver, traffic rules have been violated. It was no unintentional accident. They knew the danger and yet the proceeded with such step to drive putting others at danger and THEY did kill one innocent man. Clearly that american was in fear and forced the driver to drive to save himself. 

So the story goes first murder 2 men take their pictures, runaway in a car with fake number plate and kill yet another man who happened to be unaware and innocent. That is no unintentional vehicle collision. That is murders running away while doing so yet they commit another murder. 
A RUNAWAY car killing someone is mere traffic accident or mishap? No sir you are 100% wrong, traffic violation has taken place, violating International Traffic rules putting other in danger. 

So he killed those robbers what was the need to Runaway he could have stopped and waited for Police? Enlighten us. That is usually what happens in Pakistan and all over the world you wait for Police on the crime scene Don't you? OR in Pakistan you americans runaway to embassy? Get you facts straight.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

roy_gourav said:


> Is that the visa of that American man?
> 
> Cause if it is it says *Date of Issue: 15 Sep 2009
> Good for Journey Upto: 15 Dec 2009
> Number of Visits Allowed: Single
> Duration of Each stay: 3 Months*
> 
> So this American "Diplomat" was in Pakistan illegally?


You have a sharp eye! and I should ve mention as under earlier.
I ll see if I can find the links that did say he had over stayed and also he had his visa renewed within Pakistan in which case they would ve simply stamped it somewhere in the passport. For now , this is all that Dawn was able to obtain. Further queries can be directed to them I guess!


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

roy_gourav said:


> So am guessing Dawn is reporting fake news ?



Depends on your agenda....................... From what I know they dont publish BS.myyself. Just must be done based on truth, whatever ever that may be.
That being said, I ll repeat 
Edit: You stand controverted. See my next post.Lets see what you come up with next!


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

*Doubts on stay
*
Diplomatic sources in Islamabad said that Raymond Davis had first received a three-month diplomatic visa on a diplomatic passport on request of the US State Department in September 2009. That is the only visa issued to him by the Pakistan embassy in Washington.

On that occasion, the State Department had said Davis would be visiting Pakistan for a short term as a technical adviser. Subsequently, Davis received extensions to his visa in Islamabad or elsewhere.

His presence in Pakistan after the expiry of his first visa in December 2009 was neither known to nor authorised by the Pakistan embassy in Washington or the Foreign Office.
No decision yet to hand over Davis to US: Babar | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## RescueRanger

Yeah that is the one i am referring to tareymareyikmarzi. This guys was staying in Pakistan illegally and they "US Embassy" had requested a Non Diplomatic ID for his during his stay but the F.O had refused following the incident in Lahore last year. 

Can someone please find and post a copy of that request letter. 

Many thanks in advance.


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## Roybot

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Depends on your agenda....................... From what I know they dont publish BS.myyself. Just must be done based on truth, whatever ever that may be.
> That being said, I ll repeat
> Edit: You stand controverted. See my next post.Lets see what you come up with next!



I don't have any agendas mate,its just that the "fake wiki leaks" news that came out from some Pakistani media outlet has made me skeptical when it comes to Pakistan media. Specially when the Dawn could have easily published a much clearer image of the "Visa". It just seemed like blurred image was put up to mislead people. I don't have sharp eyes as such, I just used an image editing software to make the image clearer.

I for one would like to see Mr Davis punished if he has over stayed his visa and was in Pakistan illegally. No diplomat overstays their visa. At least not the ones from countries like US, unless they have some other nefarious "business" to attend to.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

RescueRanger said:


> Yeah that is the one i am referring to tareymareyikmarzi. This guys was staying in Pakistan illegally and they "US Embassy" had requested a *Non Diplomatic ID* for his during his stay but the F.O had refused following the incident in Lahore last year.
> 
> Can someone please find and post a copy of that request letter.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.



RR, what news entry was it under at Dawn?
I can ask them if you dont remember...................


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

roy_gourav said:


> I don't have any agendas mate,its just that the "fake wiki leaks" news the came out from Pakistan media has made me skeptical when it comes to Pakistan media. Specially when the Dawn could have easily published a much clearer image of the "Visa". It just seemed like blurred image was put up to mislead people. I don't have sharp eyes as such, I just used a image editing software to make the image clearer.
> 
> I for one would like to see Mr Davis punished if he has over stayed his visa and was in Pakistan illegally. No diplomat overstays their visa. At least not the ones from countries like US, unless they have some other nefarious "business" to attend to.



I ll ask Dawn if they can ask the insider to bump up the dpi while rescanning. It is pretty clear to read though . So no worries, no one here is concerned about you not believing. That fact is in line with GOP etc have maintained all along.


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## pkd

He might not have overstayed his visa. He got his visa extended multiple time, That picture can be that of previous extension.

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## RescueRanger

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> RR, what news entry was it under at Dawn?
> I can ask them if you dont remember...................



Dunya News. Ran all day day before yesterday and yesterday aswell. Please do try to get the copy or a video clip of it. Please

Also lest we forget the Human Tragedy in this event:


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

pkd said:


> He might not have overstayed his visa. He got his visa extended multiple time, That picture can be that of previous extension.



Dude, that is the only visa that was issued in DC. That is the original vida. At this time his overstay is not an issue. Regardless, it does not say he is a Diplomat.

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## nwmalik

Jana said:


> Even the yankee self defence story is coming out as concocted as he has fired on the killed persons from behind.
> 
> 
> 
> anyway the killer will be set free but its unfortunate that old Americans are coming up with lame excuses in support of the killing


i dont know if the story is correct or not.
But if there are two men on a motorbike then to stop a car they have to be on one side on better in front with a pistol in the hand of the back seater.


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## Xestan

*Pakistan rejects US demand for Daviss release*



Pakistan rejects US demand for Davis?s release &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## Leviza

American Eagle said:


> I would hope no diplomat from Pakistan serving here in the USA would have to face armed criminals in a hold up and threat on his life event.
> 
> However, I can assure you that in the US self defense is allowed. And if a diplomat shot and killed an armed robber the Pakistani diplomat would not be arrested nor jailed if they claimed Diplomatic Immunity. Nor would there be a firestorm of false allegations against the poor innocent victum of attempted armed robbery.



look at this guy what he is saying... even Americans are not safe in their own country ... armed robbers are very common in USA....


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

He is probably an undercover Xe operative...

He should be hanged in public on a chowk in Lahore...


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## fatman17

*Lahore shooting: Some questions* 

By Ejaz Haider

Published: January 31, 2011

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution's Foreign Policy Studies Programme 

Two boys shot dead by Raymond Davis, an American national, in the Mozang area of Lahore; one biker crushed to death by a speeding US consulate vehicle that arrives on the scene presumably to rescue Davis, who tries to escape but is captured. The consulate vehicle escapes after overrunning the unfortunate biker.

The incident has left a trail of three bodies and several questions.

Who is Davis  accredited diplomat or a civilian contracted by the US consulate for technical advice, a term that can cover a broad range of activities? Why was he carrying a pistol, a Glock 17 I am told, which is a 9mm semi-automatic weapon that packs the punch with 17 rounds in a standard magazine. It is used by pros and Davis does seem like one.

Why did Davis try to run away from the scene after displaying the calm ability to shoot a pistol with a steady hand, get out of the car, make a video of the bodies, and talk to someone on the wireless?

From whats known so far, it does not appear that the killed boys intended to shoot Davis. They were carrying local-made pistols (terrible choice); one didnt have bullets in it, while the other had five rounds of local ammo, another bad amateur choice. There is no indication that they tried to fire at Davis. It is interesting to note where Davis fired from, in what direction and where the boys took the bullets.

Davis fired from inside his car, slightly above the steering wheel and towards the right. That would mean the boys were parked ahead of his car, probably close to the right edge of the bonnet. Not exactly the right place if you want to shoot down a driver. Most of the bullets, it appears from the autopsy, entered their bodies from the back  that would mean they were facing away from the shooter, or were trying to escape at the time they were shot down. If this is correct then, at least at the moment Davis shot them, they were not a threat to his life. Itchy fingers perhaps?

One source told me the ammo he used was hollow-point; another says it was ballpoint. With hollow-point the boys stood no chance at all. The round enters the body and flattens, causing terrible tissue damage.

Glock pistols have a two-stage trigger safety mechanism because there is no external safety catch. The weapon will fire when the trigger is depressed normally beyond the first stage afforded by the internal trigger safety mechanism. Why did he fire 7 shots if the idea was to incapacitate? Since Davis has claimed self-defence he will have to prove that his life was in grave danger when he shot the boys.

People are angry. There is a sense, not entirely wrong, that Americans act haughty, even though the blame for this must go to Pakistani governments. If the governments fail to observe the protocols, too eager to roll out the red carpet even for lower ranking American officials, one cant blame the Americans for taking Pakistan for granted.

Consider the attitude of the public affairs officers at the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore. They have refused to ID Davis. Instead of helping in investigating the killing of three Pakistanis, the US embassy has now demanded that this guy be immediately released. And pray, how and why, unless all these questions are answered? The government should clarify when, how, why, and if at all, a foreign national can carry a weapon? What exactly is the status of this man, his ID and the nature of his work here? What is the protocol for the movement of American nationals, whether in official or personal capacity? Are the Americans using SOPs for their protection that may violate local laws? If so, why?

The government should set up a website, giving information on all legal and other questions thrown up by this violent incident. It must also tell the people why the US embassy has made such a demand. The US government cannot spring the guy until all legal issues are settled. Neither can the federal and Punjab governments afford to let him walk away just like that.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2011.

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## Leviza

*Question for Americans*

Apart from their US person involve in this incident what they have to say for the families of victims? 
say something for 2 person killed by firing
say something for 1 person killed by car. 

lets hope these Americans have some good words for the victims who lost their life...
Also is it allowed in USA to kill a robber when ever you feel like?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

One thing our sell out government should do is not allow Americans to roam the streets of Pakistan anymore... 

That would cause a lot of problems for their underground activities however...


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## mughaljee

Country Fellows, 
what do you think till now, 
will the devil get the punishment or not.


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## American Eagle

Leviza said:


> look at this guy what he is saying... even Americans are not safe in their own country ... armed robbers are very common in USA....



The above comment is idiotic and absurd by a youth who claims to be a Pakistani but was born in the UK where he is now a student radical trouble maker.

While this young fool safely in the UK pretends to know it all another suicide bombing in Peshawar area, this time, has happend murdering the area Chief of Police and 5 other innocent Pakistani Police officers , while many more innocent Pakistanis were wounded at the site of this terrorist suicide bomber blast.

Meanwhile the terrorists have likewise used suicide bombers to blow up the Kohat Tunnel on the highway from the North into Peshawar...this collapsed the auto tunnel from the inside, blocking a major traffice artery to ordinary Pakitani citizen's use.

There have been other bombings in Karachi as well.


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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> Meanwhile the terrorists have likewise used suicide bombers to blow up the Kohat Tunnel on the highway from the North into Peshawar...this collapsed the auto tunnel from the inside, blocking a major traffice artery to ordinary Pakitani citizen's use.
> 
> There have been other bombings in Karachi as well.



Why do you astray from the topic at hand,? It's like what zillion times that you mention Suicide attacks, what's that got to with David arrest? Discuss the issue at hand, There are other appropriate threads where you can discuss these things, where you can mention your emotional rants about those suicide attacks,in here keep your discussions, limited to David here, Don't try to Equate Suicide Attacks and Terrorist attacks with David Case, 

Both are different in Nature, if you wanna discuss them then open another thread and express your rehotric there,


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## American Eagle

The victum of attempted armed robbery is Davis...not David.

This use of wrong name epitomizes your extreme prejudice and lack of factual information.

The fact that armed robberies are being used to fund within Pakistan current terrorist operations, to include suicide bombers, somehow evades your understanding, too.


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## Khan_patriot

Lets screw that bastard and make an example of him and prove that Pakistan is a sovereign state which will not be intimidated by the US pressure.........


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## Khan_patriot

American Eagle said:


> The victum of attempted armed robbery is Davis...not David.
> 
> This use of wrong name epitomizes your extreme prejudice and lack of factual information.
> 
> The fact that armed robberies are being used to fund within Pakistan current terrorist operations, to include suicide bombers, somehow evades your understanding, too.



lets suppose he was the victim of an armed robbery then why the hell was he making a get away after the shootout and in the process killed other INNOCENT PEOPLE......


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## RescueRanger

Calm down guys, this whole thing is getting more and more confusing by the day. Just let the process take it's turn. ( we all know the results, don't we...).

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## American Eagle

Khan_patriot said:


> Lets screw that bastard and make an example of him and prove that Pakistan is a sovereign state which will not be intimidated by the US pressure.........



Let's see...how are you managing your soverignty in Quetta where several attempts were made on the life of then President Musharraf..in Peshawar where al Qaida and violent Taliban have just murdered the Police Chief and 5 other police officers this weekend...in Lahore where the same two criminals you wish to make martyrs of robbed a Paksitani gentlemen moments before trying to stick up Mr. Raymond Davis, the put upon American diplomat....or managing the deaths of 35 innocent Pakitanis murdered by Lahore terrorist suicide bombers the day before the robbery attempt on Mr. Davis....or the same day as Lahore suicide bombings and murders the suicide bombing killing scores and wounding many more in Karachi?

I and many other Americans do wish Pakistan well as a soverign nation but it is historically unable or perhaps unwilling to have law and order as terrorists and terrorism, and robberies to raise money for terrorist operations, are painting a true and pretty horrible picture.

I fear for the safety of my Pakistani friends in several areas of Pakistan, north and south, and wish only a better day and defeat of all radical terrorism therein and coming therefrom.

And we also fear for the safety of all foreign nationals working in Pakistan in fact to help build a better Paksitan...who have been attacked and killed in recent times...Americans, French, Chinese to name several nationalties murdered inside Pakistan in recent years thanks to rampant terrorism which the ordinary Paksitanis don't seem able or perhaps willing, that is unclear, to deal with once and for all.


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## DV RULES

By the way US called back CIA resident from Lahore consulate, many questions raised about it. 

You have to admit that Davis involved negative activities but you with baseless comments stiil stay there. With your lot of post here nothing will change and Davis has to be face court trails.


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## VCheng

*PLEASE: Discuss the topic and the thoughts, NOT the personalities of the posters.*

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## DV RULES

American Eagle said:


> Let's see...how are you managing your soverignty in Quetta where several attempts were made on the life of then President Musharraf..in Peshawar where al Qaida and violent Taliban have just murdered the Police Chief and 5 other police officers this weekend...



Who told you that they were AQ? They informed you? Don't write anything without any proof.

AQ presents in Afghanistan under the protection of foreign military bases. 

We have US consulates enough to fill this gap. 




> in Lahore where the same two criminals you wish to make martyrs of robbed a Paksitani gentlemen moments before trying to stick up Mr. Raymond Davis, the put upon American diplomat....or managing the deaths of 35 innocent Pakitanis murdered by Lahore terrorist suicide bombers the day before the robbery attempt on Mr. Davis....or the same day as Lahore suicide bombings and murders the suicide bombing killing scores and wounding many more in Karachi?



Need to find the link between them.




> I and many other Americans do wish Pakistan well as a soverign nation but it is historically unable or peraps unwilling to have law and order as terrorists and terrorms, and robberies to raise money for terrorist operations, are painting a true and pretty horrible picture.
> 
> I fear for the safety of my Pakistani friends in several areas of Pakistan, north and south, and wish only a better day and defeat of all radical terrorism therein and coming therefrom.



I am appreciating for your worry about Pakistanis but first convey your message to White house and ask to do something positive from outside the border of Pakistan.




> And we also fear for the safety of all foreign nations working in Pakistan in fact to help build a better Paksitan...who have been attacked and killed in recent times...Americans, French, Chinese to name several nationalties murdered inside Pakistan in recent years thanks to rampant terrorism which the ordinary Paksitanis don't seem able or perhaps willing, that is unclear, to deal with once and for all.




We ever tried to save & help peaceful foreign lives present in the country while they respect law & orders. Law has to be respect.

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## Cynic Waheed

mughaljee said:


> Country Fellows,
> what do you think till now,
> will the devil get the punishment or not.



He wont get any punishment. Punjab Police is determined on proving the two men as robbers. While at the same time Fedral government is hiding Mr Davis's real nature of visa, his real mission in Pakistan FO is also quiet about the status of his Visa. Based on the above conditions, my best guess is that it will be proved somehow that the guy shot in self defence. If plan A doesn't work, well then the silence on his status will be broken and he will be proved as diplomat, hence immunity granted. Should this also not work, well we still have presidential pardon to offer to the US. You dont want our Aid stopped do you?!


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Relatives grieve as funeral held - Families demand justice*







LAHORE - The funeral of the three young men, two of whom were shot and one run over by American officials on Thursday noon was held in their respective localities on Friday. The families of Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad, who were gunned down by American official Raymond Davis in Qartaba Chowk, lodged protests on Friday claiming police officials were pressing them to withdraw the cases.
On Friday, Lahore Police handed Faizan and Faheems bodies to their heirs after conducting autopsies. The relatives of the deceased took the bodies home on Qasoorpura on Ravi Road and Baigum Kot main road (near the American Consulate). Faizans heirs lodged a protest and blocked main Ravi Road, setting tyres on fire. Similarly Faheems heirs kept the Baigum Kot main road blocked over an hour and burnt tyres.
Over 150 protestors joined Faizans family in protesting. Faheems family was joined by over 300 protestors with heirs chanting slogans against brutal Americans. The protestors chanted down with America with the families demanding capital punishment for the accused official. Not robbers: Faizan brother speaking to media said his brother was not a robber.
*My brother was going to meet his uncle in General Hospital when he became the Americans victim. He was not carrying an illegal weapon. The weapon was licensed and he was carrying it for his protection. We have an old feud. He said his brother Kamran Haider had been murdered by their rivals on 9th of Muharram and a case had been registered with Sheikhupura Police.
Faizan used to to attend court proceedings in his elder brothers murder case, he had to protect himself, he said. Faizans wife appeared exhausted. She was barely able to speak to media. She said, I married Faizan only two month ago. I never found Faizan involved in illegal activities. The Chief Justice of Pakistan and Chief Minister of Punjab should bring the American official to justice and condemn him to the gallows. *
*Faheems heirs talking to media claimed senior police officials were pressurising them to withdraw the case against the American official.* They further claimed that police were trying to declare Faheem as a robber. Faheems wife participated in the protest and said she had contracted marriage with him four months ago.
*She recalled her memorable time with Faheem and repeated the demand of condemning the American official to the gallows. Locals of the Ravi Road and Shahdara areas talking to media said they have never heard any compliant of Faizan and Faheem. They said both ran legit businesses which dismissed the likelihood of them being robbers. *
Protestors disbursed and took the bodies back home after senior police officials reached the scene and assured them justice. The police officials including SP City Division Dr Shahzad and concerned DSPs told protestors that two cases had already been registered against the American on their request and investigations were underway. After getting assurance, the families of Faizan, Faheem and Abad Ur Rehman laid them to rest after funerals in their local graveyards.
CM visits: Late on Friday night Chief Minister Punjab Mian Shahbaz Sharif visited the house of deceased Abad ur Rehman and condoled his death. The Chief Minister Mian Shahbaz Sharif ensured family that justice will be done and those responsible will be punished according to law.
Constable: Capital City Police Officer, Lahore Aslam Tarin and PML (N) leader Khawja Saad Rafiq visited the house of martyred constable Allah Ditta who died in the Chehlum blast and presented a cheque of Rs 3 million to his family on Friday. The CCPO announced Allah Dittas son would be recruited in the Lahore Police and the government would take care his childrens education.

Relatives grieve as funeral held - Families demand justice | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 PM ----------


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen




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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> *PLEASE: Discuss the topic and the thoughts, NOT the personalities of the posters.*



Seriously man STFU
i presume you have the same germs as hussain haqqani got ...

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## VCheng

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Seriously man STFU
> i presume you have the same germs as hussain haqqani got ...




I respect your opinion of me, wrong as it is, but my respect for differences of ideas and opinions means that I cannot say that to you in return.

*My original statement is CORRECT.*

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## DV RULES

VCheng said:


> *PLEASE: Discuss the topic and the thoughts, NOT the personalities of the posters.*



Point is taken, we never liked to attack other's personality, we are here discussing situations but not posters while this PDF rule applied to all.

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## logic

The matter is still in the court.
Anyone who supports this cold blooded killer aka terrorist should go and protest outside the court at his next judicial hearing.
As for now the person is in judicial custody and is going no where for now.

*Rehman Malik Hussain Haqqani stop selling the nation out.*

If the public see's this Government letting this guy off the hook without due legal process then it will prove to be another nail in the PAK US relations coffin.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> I respect your opinion of me, wrong as it is, but my respect for differences of ideas and opinions means that I cannot say that to you in return.
> 
> *My original statement is CORRECT.*



Good enough ...!
The fact is you have shown your hypocrisy and despite all that you have mocked people here for bearing wild and military bully like thoughts and time and again advised them to control there emotions, yet you fail to give any such advise to any American members on board despite there utmost display of hypocrisy in defending a retard murderer who killed three innocent Pakistanis in broad day light speaks out to a great deal about your motives and feelings towards Pakistanis in general and Pakistan on the whole. 
Even if your are fond of advising people to control there emotions in the light of all what happened , at least it should be free of double standards which is well evident through your posts.

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## logic

@ American Eagle

Buddy *you can have your opinion but you cannot have your own Facts* applies to your mindless defence of a killer aka terrorist more than anything else.

Court should deal with him in according to the law of the Land.


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## VelocuR

By watching Spy Wars History regarding Gerard Bulls _(building supergun for Iraq)_, both CIA and Mossad says it is very risk to spy in foregin country without status of diplomat immunity. Being caught is very dangerous! 

Their number One rule is "Don't get caught" 
Their number Two rule is "Don't give away little details after murders"


In case of Davis and Jonathan Banks, it is a big blow and failed mission!


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## pakdefender

Check this out ...

first..

*Centre to decide on diplomatic status of US gunman: Shahbaz *
Centre to decide on diplomatic status of US gunman: Shahbaz :: SAMAA TV - Top Story, Breaking, Latest, Pakistan, World, Sports, Entertainment

then..

*Zardari says court to rule on US gunman*
Zardari says court to rule on US gunman | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


In today's circumstances, no politician will want to be seen as the one responsible for the illegal release of the murderer of innocent Pakistanis and will of the people shall reign supreme.

This blood thirsty animal will be facing the courts and be sentenced , in fact the relatives of the deceased should ask for the law of 'Qisas' to be applied in which the relatives of the deceased can shoot this animal at point blank range with hollow point bullets , just like he did to their near and dear ones.

These scum bags must know that they are not free to murder in our land and are not above the law , with this incident we must drive home this point


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## logic

pakdefender said:


> In today's circumstances , no politican will want to be seen as the one responsible for the release of the murderer of innocent Pakistanis and will of the people shall reign supreme!



Just a little correction 

In today's circumstances no politician will want to be seen as the one responsible for the *illegal letting off of this murderer aka terrorist* *The Constitution of Pakistan shall be upheld in this judicial matter.*

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## pakdefender

logic said:


> Just a little correction
> 
> In today's circumstances no politician will want to be seen as the one responsible for the *illegal letting off of this murderer aka terrorist* *The Constitution of Pakistan shall be upheld in this judicial matter.*



roger that

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

FIR registered against Davis for using illegal weapon
LAHORE: A First Information Report (FIR) was registered on Monday against US citizen Raymond Davis for using an illegal weapon when he gunned down two men in Lahore.
The case against Davis has been registered on the investigation officers statement.
Davis is in the custody of the Lahore Police and is being questioned. Earlier, Davis was awarded a six-day physical remand by a court in Lahore.
Police have sent their investigation report to the Punjab government. The report states that Davis, the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore are not cooperating with the police. It states the officials concerned have not replied to a questionnaire sent to them. The report also claims that the Americans have not given the police information on the driver of a vehicle that ran over a third person during the incident.
Meanwhile, the Punjab government is set to inform the federal government of its investigations till now. It is also in contact with the US embassy and the consulate.
Senior Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) leaders including the chief minister, IG Punjab and the Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) Lahore are meeting to discuss the police report.
Earlier, Pakistan had rejected the US demand to release Davis, saying that sub judice in a court of law and the legal process should be respected.


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## VCheng

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Good enough ...!
> The fact is you have shown your hypocrisy and despite all that you have mocked people here for bearing wild and military bully like thoughts and time and again advised them to control there emotions, *yet you fail to give any such advise to any American members on board *despite there utmost display of hypocrisy in defending a retard murderer who killed three innocent Pakistanis in broad day light speaks out to a great deal about your motives and feelings towards Pakistanis in general and Pakistan on the whole.
> Even if your are fond of advising people to control there emotions in the light of all what happened , at least it should be free of double standards which is well evident through your posts.



Please read my comments again before you accuse me of partiality or of doubting my patriotism.



VCheng said:


> That is the most important thing.
> 
> Regardless of the rhetoric flying around from both sides, I will *WAIT *for the investigation to be *completed *before saying anything.





VCheng said:


> *I think that ALL should respect a sub judice case and moderate their comments.*





VCheng said:


> *PLEASE: Discuss the topic and the thoughts, NOT the personalities of the posters.*



I assume you know the meaning of BOTH SIDES and ALL as used above, and can see the impartial advice, but then again, my assumption may not be justified given the level of comprehension displayed until now.

*I defend only the truth, no matter what it might be.*

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

^^^^ folks just move on.


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## pakdefender

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> FIR registered against Davis for using illegal weapon
> LAHORE: A First Information Report (FIR) was registered on Monday against US citizen Raymond Davis for using an illegal weapon when he gunned down two men in Lahore.
> The case against Davis has been registered on the investigation officers statement.
> Davis is in the custody of the Lahore Police and is being questioned. Earlier, Davis was awarded a six-day physical remand by a court in Lahore.
> Police have sent their investigation report to the Punjab government. The report states that Davis, the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore are not cooperating with the police. It states the officials concerned have not replied to a questionnaire sent to them. The report also claims that the Americans have not given the police information on the driver of a vehicle that ran over a third person during the incident.
> Meanwhile, the Punjab government is set to inform the federal government of its investigations till now. It is also in contact with the US embassy and the consulate.
> Senior Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) leaders including the chief minister, IG Punjab and the Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) Lahore are meeting to discuss the police report.
> Earlier, Pakistan had rejected the US demand to release Davis, saying that sub judice in a court of law and the legal process should be respected.



This is not acceptable that he is not co-operating; the investigators might have to water board this criminal to get him to co-operate


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

pakdefender said:


> This is not acceptable that he is not co-operating



Because he is claiming immunity.


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## fida jan

we have no shortage of hussain haqqanis, nadeem parachas, asma jhangirs, salman taseers, najam seethis etc


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## BATMAN

It is an act of terrorism and fanaticism.
It is no different than attack on Srilankan cricket team.
Any ordinary man cannot kill people in streets.
He must have been having a history of training with arms and killings.
A probe into the credentials of the criminal.... will help the courts taking right decision.

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## Bas_tum_Pak

He should be punished like a common man.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> *I defend only the truth, no matter what it might be.*



And the truth is , The retard is not a diplomat , and the crime of ruthlessly murdering the innocent cannot be wavered off through worldly compensations , and the law of the land should be invoked to seek the righteous judgment.

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## VCheng

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> And the truth is , The retard is not a diplomat , and the crime of ruthlessly murdering the innocent cannot be wavered off through worldly compensations , and the law of the land should be invoked to seek the righteous judgment.




No Sir. Please do not jump to conclusions just yet.

Like I said before, the matter is sub judice and the investigation is not yet complete.

Let us wait for that before forming any conclusions.


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## Stumper

pakdefender said:


> This is not acceptable that he is not co-operating; the investigators might have to water board this criminal to get him to co-operate



As an outsider, maybe i dont get it. But pray tell me... why label Mr.Davis , being prosecuted for homicide, as a criminal, and why Mr.Qadri, being prosecuted for manslaughter, is garlanded and knighted as "Deen" ?

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## ashok321

> And the truth is , The retard is not a diplomat , and the crime of innocent cannot be wavered off through worldly compensations , and the law of the land should be invoked to seek the righteous judgment.



Where was the law of land when, FBI got kansi through hefty bribes, and got him under Pakistani government nose? without any extradion treaty?



> At 4 a.m. on the morning of June 15, 1997, an armed team of FBI agents, working with the Pakistani ISI, raided Kasi's hotel room. His fingerprints were taken on the scene, confirming his identity.



He became Shaheed-martyr after killing americans why? they named a mosque on his name why? 



> Kasi is memorialized through a mosque build with his name as Shaheed Aimal Kansi masjid (Martyr Aimal Kansi mosque) in the port city of Ormara in Kansi's home province of Balochistan in Pakistan.



Why people dont be equitable?


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> No Sir. Please do not jump to conclusions just yet.
> 
> Like I said before, the matter is sub judice and the investigation is not yet complete.
> 
> Let us wait for that before forming any conclusions.



Yes,But his visa proves that hes not a diplomat, The consequences are inevitable with such strong evidence. BTW i really long that the sub judice process goes in favour of those who lost there lives in such a tragic way and then Zardari uses his special powers to let him go and the then the opportunists make good use of this issue and Pakistan could be freed from thugs like Zardari...!
Now this could be a possible solution which could be acceptable to ALL...
I realy hope Zardari goes down like Chosney Mubarek now


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## VCheng

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Yes,But his visa proves that hes not a diplomat, The consequences are inevitable with such strong evidence. BTW i really long that the sub judice process goes in favour of those who lost there lives in such a tragic way and then Zardari uses his special powers to let him go and the then the opportunists make good use of this issue and Pakistan could be freed from thugs like Zardari...!
> Now this could be a possible solution which could be acceptable to ALL...
> I realy hope Zardari goes down like Chosney Mubarek now



Evidence is not proof, until it is impartially evaluated, along with ALL the other pieces of evidence, as part of a comprehensive investigation.

Court proceedings, if and when they proceed, will allow for critical examination of all evidence as well as cross-examination of witnesses, both for and against the accused.

*I will advise waiting for that process to be completed.*


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## American Eagle

DV Rules wrote today in part:


> "Don't write anything without any proof."



This entire past weekend has consisted of made up wild statements and false allegations together with self created death sentences of the American diplomatic official Raymond Davis.

US diplomatic passports are issued only in Washington, D.C. by the Special Issuance Agency (SIA) to employees of the U.S. government traveling or on assignment abroad on official business.


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## VCheng

AmericanEagle: Please allow me to suggest that your efforts, steady and justfied from your point of view, may actually be counter-productive to your ultimate goals. Please feel free to ignore or incorporate this suggestion in your future posts.


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## American Eagle

Going at bits and pieces of allegations which are not facts, mere allegations does not prove anything. Nothing.

Why in the world did DAWN and do writers on PDF rant and rave of an out of date, not the current Pakitani VISA which Mr. Davis does have per the US Ambassador to Pakistan on his US Diplomtic Passport? Mr. Davis is under a Pakistani VISA on his US Diplomatic Passport *which runs through mid summer 2012.*

Mr. Davis's Pakistani VISA is one endorsing his US Diplomatic Passport. He has Diplomatic Immunity.


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## Shameel

*Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?*

SpyTalk - Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> Evidence is not proof, until it is impartially evaluated, along with ALL the other pieces of evidence, as part of a comprehensive investigation.
> 
> Court proceedings, if and when they proceed, will allow for critical examination of all evidence as well as cross-examination of witnesses, both for and against the accused.
> 
> *I will advise waiting for that process to be completed.*



Amen to that and lets hope the process is carried out in a totally impartial environment , BTW i do believe that his Visa is a strong evidence which will later on become a strong proof, as its copy along with necessary comments has been handed over to the media by some pretty responsible sources ... !


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Munni badnaam hui darling taray liya.................

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


>



Bhai Ji , Bhudday ko to dhikao ....................lets see kya kehta hai.


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## American Eagle

The above alleged Pakistani VISA image was for 90 days in a prior year and is expired.

Mr. Davis is under a currently valid Pakistani VISA on his US Diplomatic Passport which runs until mid summer 2012, some 18 or so months in the future.

Here again misleading and false information purporting to be Mr. Davis's current VISA is wrongly and untruthfully used to try to smear this innocent man who robbers threatened with guns and attempted to rob.

Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity.


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## fida jan

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Munni badnaam hui darling taray liya.................



abhi aur badnaam hogi eagle munni


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## mikkix

The guy will ultimately released, reasons
1) Foreign office and beareacracy have many people living and working in the world so they will grant him immunity to help themselves b/c we know what they are doing outside.
2) FOREIGN AIDDDDDDDDDD.
3) IMF
4) American weapons for army.
Pakistan law is made by goras, run by goras and deal by goras.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

American Eagle said:


> The above alleged Pakistani VISA image was for 90 days in a prior year and is expired.
> 
> Mr. Davis is under a currently valid Pakistani VISA on his US Diplomatic Passport which runs until mid summer 2012, some 18 or so months in the future.
> 
> Here again misleading and false information purporting to be Mr. Davis's current VISA is wrongly and untruthfully used to try to smear this innocent man who robbers threatened with guns and attempted to rob.
> 
> Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity.



Where was the new diplomatic visa issued?
I am sure whichever consulate issued it 
has record of it and the US Consulate in
Lahore can provide the original for review
to the magistrate.
What immigration related papers were on his person when he was arrested?

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## American Eagle

This is a fuzzy picture of a 2009 now expired 90 day VISA with no name on the VISA or the alleged passport pages to show who by name it was issued to? It proves absolutely nothing whatsoever.


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## American Eagle

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Where was the new diplomatic visa issued?
> I am sure whichever consulate issued it
> has record of it and the US Consulate in
> Lahore can provide the original for review
> to the magistrate.
> What immigration related papers were on his person when he was arrested?



Having lived and worked in Pakistan for 18 months at and with the old US Embassy then in Karachi we/I did not/were not required to carry around our Passports on us or in our vehicles as it would be to easy, back then and now, for anyone to steal a US Diplomatic Passport. A stolen US Diplomatic Passport has great value in the terrorism black market these days I'm sure you now recognize upon reflection.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

American Eagle said:


> Having lived and worked in Pakistan for 18 months at and with the old US Embassy then in Karachi we/I did not/were not required to carry around our Passports on us or in our vehicles as it would be to easy, back then and now, for anyone to steal a US Diplomatic Passport. A stolen US Diplomatic Passport has great value in the terrorism black market these days I'm sure you now recognize upon reflection.



Thanks for that info. Like I said if he is indeed a diplomat, proof to that effect can be furnished when the remand ends in a few days and GOP would have no choice but to honor the convention.


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## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> Having lived and worked in Pakistan for 18 months at and with the old US Embassy then in Karachi we/I did not/were not required to carry around our Passports on us or in our vehicles as it would be to easy, back then and now, for anyone to steal a US Diplomatic Passport. A stolen US Diplomatic Passport has great value in the terrorism black market these days I'm sure you now recognize upon reflection.



He could have carried his diplomatic ID card, which is issued to all diplomats by Pakistan's MOFA.

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## Gazzi

Well, if the US can show the passport of one of the 9/11 hijackers from the World Trader Centre "demolition" then I am sure this Visa photo too may be true, anything is possible.........

Anyways, 

1.) why did it take the US two days to say that he has diplomatic immunity

2.) Why was he carrying an unlicensed Firearm in my country

3.) Why did he shoot at two Pakistani citizens in Pakistan in their backs

4.) Why did he fail to stop having driven over a pedestrian

Many questions which need answering but an investigation will show the results......

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## American Eagle

Shameel said:


> He could have carried his diplomatic ID card, which is issued to all diplomats by Pakistan's MOFA.



We did not have such i.d. card as you mention here in my era. So I am not qualified to comment on your idea.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The american embassy still hasnt handed over the SUV driver who crushed the bike rider........ Infact they are not even cooperating with the police..Govt of Punjab says tht it might hand out arrest warrants for tht bastard.

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## American Eagle

> Why did he fail to stop having driven over a pedestrian



If you will first get your ideas correct...the third person in a traffic accident did not involve Mr. Davis...that driver apparently was a Pakitani national. The confusing title of this very long threat was bogus from the start but creates the false impression that one man caused the deaths of three others. That is clearly untrue.

Two robbers caused their own deaths by wielding pistols aimed at Mr. Davis trying to hold him up. He fired back in self defense. Photos on this site over the weekend suggest the robbers fired into Mr. Davis windshield in my opinion. Others think otherwise.

Bottom line is Mr. Davis was the victum and has diplomatic immunity having defended himself from a life threatened robbery attempt on his person.

After you sort out the actual information available all weekend long in a generally confusing way, I admit, then you will finally see that the third person killed in a traffic accident was unrelated to Mr. Davis being robbed and was not killed by Mr. Davis.

Thanks for taking time to sort out and through your facts. When better organized and accurate in terms of facts instead of opinions, I will then do my best as a lay observer from across the pond then to give you my singular feedback.


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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> If you will first get your ideas correct...the third person in a traffic accident did not involve Mr. Davis...that driver apparently was a Pakitani national. The confusing title of this very long threat was bogus from the start but creates the false impression that one man caused the deaths of three others. That is clearly untrue.
> 
> Two robbers caused their own deaths by wielding pistons aimed at Mr. Davis trying to hold him up. He fired back in self defense.
> 
> After you sort out the actual information available all weekend long in a generally confusing way, I admit, then you will finally see that the third person killed in a traffic accident was unrelated to Mr. Davis being robbed and was not killed by Mr. Davis.
> 
> Thanks for taking time to sort out and through your facts. When better organized and accurate in terms of facts instead of opinions, I will then do my best as a lay observer from across the pond then to give you my singular feedback.



So by your own account, you are not in possession of all the facts, as we all are...........in no position, 

So, for you then to claim he shot them in self defence is basically talking rubbish as the two were shot in their backs.......reminds me of a case where a British soldier in Northern island shot at a car which failed to stop at a check point. In a court of law, it was found that the first shots fired when the car was facing him was a threat, however every shot fired when the car had gone past and every bullet which hit the driver was unlawful and incriminating.

Self defence crap will also be sorted through investigatons and witness accounts hey...........lets all wait and see

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## American Eagle

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The american embassy still hasnt handed over the SUV driver who crushed the bike rider........ Infact they are not even cooperating with the police..Govt of Punjab says tht it might hand out arrest warrants for tht bastard.



Why are you calling your fellow countryman a bastard?

People are killed in traffic accidents in Lahore and all over Pakistan every day, all year around. While that is not desirable it is a hard statistical fact. Same thing happens every day across the US...around 45,000 folks die in auto accidents in America every year. Bad thing but it does happen.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Given that the actual job description of the individual in question is unclear, this does perhaps justify Pakistan's reluctance to issue visas to a horde of US officials that was being demanded and being called a 'roadblock to aid disbursement'.

We do know that the individual in question killed two people, and given the high degree of anti-Americanism and the feeling that the US does whatever it wants in Pakistan, the US could in fact allow the legal process to carry out and waive the diplomatic immunity for this individual, if in fact it is shown that he has diplomatic immunity.

Instead of merely demanding the release of the individual, the US could assist the investigation from a technical perspective, and help exonerate the individual in the Pakistani courts.

At the very least, as the President was alleged to have told a visiting congressional delegation today, the US needs to let the legal system work and the courts will decide whether or not the suspect has diplomatic immunity or not. The US should assist the courts (and the suspect) in providing the required documentation and legal assistance to establish immunity or innocence in the Pakistani courts, not making arrogant demands for his release.

A much better way of handling this would have been for the US to have stated that the suspect had diplomatic immunity, and that the US would assist the Pakistani courts in confirming that.

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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> Why are you calling your fellow countryman a bastard?
> 
> People are killed in traffic accidents in Lahore and all over Pakistan every day, all year around. While that is not desirable it is a hard statistical fact. Same thing happens every day across the US...around 45,000 folks die in auto accidents in America every year. Bad thing but it does happen.



Wonder if you would have said that if it was your child killed under my wheel...............hmm


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## American Eagle

I am unaware of where the two robbers were shot while fleeing the scene. Mr. Davis windshield was shot up as you saw in several postings on this Thread over this past weekend.

You and some others are again jumping to conclusions without facts. We all know the two robbers were shot and killed while trying to rob Mr. Davis. That is all we know for sure right this minute. All else is suppostion and conjecture.


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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> I am unaware of where the two robbers were shot while fleeing the scene. Mr. Davis windshield was shot up as you saw in several postings on this Thread over this past weekend.
> 
> You and some others are again jumping to conclusions without facts. We all know the two robbers were shot and killed while trying to rob Mr. Davis. That is all we know for sure right this minute. All else is suppostion and conjecture.



You Sir are also jumping to the conclusion they were robbers.........the door swings both ways......those shots could have been caused by terrorist Davis shooting at the innocent motorcyclists from inside his car......

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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> If you will first get your ideas correct...the third person in a traffic accident did not involve Mr. Davis...that driver apparently was a Pakitani national. The confusing title of this very long threat was bogus from the start but creates the false impression that one man caused the deaths of three others. That is clearly untrue.



Whoever the driver was he must be handed over to the police !!!

Sadly and shamelessly US embassy is not doing it.!??? why?

NOTE=The nationality of the driver is not confirmed,




> Two robbers caused their own deaths by wielding pistons aimed at Mr. Davis trying to hold him up. He fired back in self defense.



Its still not clear!They didnt aim at davis.....they couldnt even if they had wanted to!!! they were behind the vehicle no robber loots from behind!With only 5 bara made bullets in a local crappy liscensed pistol!!!!

Note=He was carryingthe pistol for self defence as his brother was also murdered a month back.


What about Davis??????????

He claimed he had withdrawn money from a bank?

A lie........proved by police investigation.

Why was he carrying a illegal weapon???

Where was he going??

Why he took the pics of the victim and tried to escape from the police?

What was he doing in public place he was not allowed to visit?

Why was he using a fake number plated vehicle?

Why US embassy vehicle was using fake plates and tried to help him escape and driving rashly which caused the death of a bike rider?

Davis was on a buisness visa which had expire while US embassy was asking for a extension.

According to US media he is a private security contractor not an embassador!



ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS!

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## American Eagle

Gazzi said:


> Wonder if you would have said that if it was your child killed under my wheel...............hmm



Your comment to me is why I keep repeating on this site over the weekend and today...why aren't you, personally, more upset and concerned at the murder of your fellow innocent, law abiding citizens, who were:

a) blown up by a suicide bomber in Lahore the day before Mr. Davis was subjected to armed robbery attempt?

b) or angy and upset over the Peshawar Police Chief and 5 other policemen, all Pakitanis, being blown up by the terrorist suicide bomber in Peshawar...where the terrorists likewise blew up the public highway tunnel at Kohat where it enters and leaves the City of Peshawar?

These and many other recent and on going murders of your fellow innocent Pakistans, as distinguised from two crooks with a criminal record, who had robbed a native Pakistani man shortly before trying to rob Mr. Davis, is what makes no sense on your part here.

Let's all respect life, innocent life of your fellows, but learn to differentiate between honest deaths by murder and terrorist violence vs. crooks being shot in the line dishonest work of being a crook?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> What about Davis??????????
> 
> He claimed he had withdrawn money from a bank?
> 
> A lie........proved by police investigation.
> 
> Why was he carrying a illegal weapon???
> 
> Where was he going??
> 
> Why he took the pics of the victim and tried to escape from the police?
> 
> What was he doing in public place he was not allowed to visit?
> 
> Why was he using a fake number plated vehicle?
> 
> Why US embassy vehicle was using fake plates and tried to help him escape and driving rashly which caused the death of a bike rider?
> 
> Davis was on a buisness visa which had expire while US embassy was asking for a extension.
> 
> According to US media he is a private security contractor not an embassador!
> 
> 
> 
> ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS!


Why don't we let the courts answer these questions?

If the investigation does show that the suspect acted in haste, then perhaps the US and Pakistan can come to an agreement on waiving diplomatic immunity for a prison sentence of a few years.

I doubt the suspect was merely out to shoot and kill Pakistanis on the road - at worst he might have misunderstood the situation, panicked and been too trigger happy.

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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> Your comment to me is why I keep repeating on this site over the weekend and today...why aren't you, personally, more upset and concerned at the murder of your fellow innocent, law abiding citizens, who were:
> 
> a) blown up by a suicide bomber in Lahore the day before Mr. Davis was subjected to armed robbery attempt?
> 
> b) or angy and upset over the Peshawar Police Chief and 5 other policemen, all Pakitanis, being blown up by the terrorist suicide bomber in Peshawar...where the terrorists likewise blew up the public highway tunnel at Kohat where it enters and leaves the City of Peshawar?
> 
> These and many other recent and on going murders of your fellow innocent Pakistans, as distinguised from two crooks with a criminal record, who had robbed a native Pakistani man shortly before trying to rob Mr. Davis, is what makes no sense on your part here.
> 
> Let's all respect life, innocent life of your fellows, but learn to differentiate between honest deaths by murder and terrorist violence vs. crooks being shot in the line dishonest work of being a crook?



To answer your questions simply.....unlike yourself who raised to point which warranted my response in the first place is because this thread......THIS ONE YOU and I are discussing on is called "American Consulate official kills 3 Pakistanis in Lahore"...........now, whats happens is, when a thread is started with a designated topic, it is that topic which should be discussed, not the affairs of the entire god damm galaxy.......


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## Gazzi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why don't we let the courts answer these questions?
> 
> If the investigation does show that the suspect acted in haste, then perhaps the US and Pakistan can come to an agreement on waiving diplomatic immunity for a prison sentence of a few years.
> 
> I doubt the suspect was merely out to shoot and kill Pakistanis on the road - at worst he might have misunderstood the situation, panicked and been too trigger happy.



Agnostic Sir.......trigger happy or not, a two lives were taken, course of justice needs to prevail.......I am sure the victims family will want life for life which unfortunately, in reality will not happen due to the current situation in Pakistan........however when American Eagle decides to call the victims robbers, then its merits a response by calling Davis an American terrorist, as the investigation is ongoing and court trial looming........

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## American Eagle

Gazzi said:


> Wonder if you would have said that if it was your child killed under my wheel...............hmm





Gazzi said:


> You Sir are also jumping to the conclusion they were robbers.........the door swings both ways......those shots could have been caused by terrorist Davis shooting at the innocent motorcyclists from inside his car......




US Diplomatic personnel are not terrorists. The two robbers are documented as known criminals previously that same day and previously by a complaint by an honorable Paksitani gentlemen who was robbed by these two armed thieves just before they then tried to rob Mr. Davis.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Why are you calling your fellow countryman a bastard?
> 
> People are killed in traffic accidents in Lahore and all over Pakistan every day, all year around. While that is not desirable it is a hard statistical fact. Same thing happens every day across the US...around 45,000 folks die in auto accidents in America every year. Bad thing but it does happen.



Excessive Jingoism can lead to paranoia and personal stress followed by extreme confusion.

This is not about a American or Pakistani.
This is not about a bastard or a saint.
*
THIS IS ABOUT A INDIVIDUAL HELD IN JUDICIAL CUSTODY PENDING FURTHER INVESTIGATION AND CHARGES INVOLVING AT LEAST TWO COUNTS OF MURDER.​*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Why don't we let the courts answer these questions?
> 
> If the investigation does show that the suspect acted in haste, then perhaps the US and Pakistan can come to an agreement on waiving diplomatic immunity for a prison sentence of a few years.
> 
> I doubt the suspect was merely out to shoot and kill Pakistanis on the road - at worst he might have misunderstood the situation, panicked and been too trigger happy.


Sir im asking mr eagle who since the starting of this thread has been defending davis and calling his actions legal n turning the victims into robbers n a accident victim....... while diverting to topic to road accidents or terrorism in our country........


Atleast he should answer my questions if he thinks hes right n all the others here are youths from a intolerant,barbaric n uneducated society whose lives n opinions r not important...........while davis(fag) is as innocent as a saint.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

American Eagle said:


> US Diplomatic personnel are not terrorists. The two robbers are documented as known criminals previously that same day and previously by a complaint by an honorable Paksitani gentlemen who was robbed by these two armed thieves just before they then tried to rob Mr. Davis.



What about Davis??????????

He claimed he had withdrawn money from a bank?

A lie........proved by police investigation.

Why was he carrying a illegal weapon???

Where was he going??

Why he took the pics of the victim and tried to escape from the police?

What was he doing in public place he was not allowed to visit?

Why was he using a fake number plated vehicle?

Why US embassy vehicle was using fake plates and tried to help him escape and driving rashly which caused the death of a bike rider?

Davis was on a buisness visa which had expire while US embassy was asking for a extension.

According to US media he is a private security contractor not an embassador!



ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Gazzi said:


> Agnostic Sir.......trigger happy or not, a two lives were taken, course of justice needs to prevail.......I am sure the victims family will want life for life which unfortunately, in reality will not happen due to the current situation in Pakistan........however when American Eagle decides to call the victims robbers, then its merits a response by calling Davis an American terrorist, as the investigation is ongoing and court trial looming........


Well both sides should refrain from inflammatory comments - and refer to those affected as 'victims and suspect'.

I do believe the US handled this completely wrong, in making demands for the release of the individual. The US should have pushed its position in court, not through press releases and the media - the latter merely confirmed for many Pakistanis the perception that the US acts without regard or concern for Pakistan, in Pakistan.

But I would like to again point out that even if the worst case scenario comes true, for the suspect, I doubt his prosecution will result in a death or life sentence, since there is no reason to believe the crime was premeditated.

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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> US Diplomatic personnel are not terrorists. The two robbers are documented as known criminals previously that same day and previously by a complaint by an honorable Paksitani gentlemen who was robbed by these two armed thieves just before they then tried to rob Mr. Davis.



Like you said, the investigation is on going......if you intend to use the tone of calling two Pakistani citizens "robbers" then your US personnel will too be labelled a Christian terrorist or American terrorist, which would you prefer, bit like the Islamic terrorist scenario now isn't it........anyways, the investigation is on going and as such you should refrain and tone down your rhetoric as emotions can run high on both sides and words used to cause harm to all parties........PEACE


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## logic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Well both sides should refrain from inflammatory comments - and refer to those affected as 'victims and suspect'.
> 
> I do believe the US handled this completely wrong, in making demands for the release of the individual. The US should have pushed its position in court, not through press releases and the media - the latter merely confirmed for many Pakistanis the perception that the US acts without regard or concern for Pakistan, in Pakistan.
> 
> But I would like to again point out that even if the worst case scenario comes true, for the suspect, I doubt his prosecution will result in a death or life sentence, since there is no reason to believe the crime was premeditated.



The Law of the land must take its course whatever that may be without prejudice or persecution.
But this incident does serve as a strong message that people at the helm of affairs in Pakistan are not doing a proper job.
If they have any such dubious arrangements with the US then they should be brought to light.


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## Gazzi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Well both sides should refrain from inflammatory comments - and refer to those affected as 'victims and suspect'.
> 
> I do believe the US handled this completely wrong, in making demands for the release of the individual. The US should have pushed its position in court, not through press releases and the media - the latter merely confirmed for many Pakistanis the perception that the US acts without regard or concern for Pakistan, in Pakistan.
> 
> But I would like to again point out that even if the worst case scenario comes true, for the suspect, I doubt his prosecution will result in a death or life sentence, since there is no reason to believe the crime was premeditated.



Agreed...........I felt that by making a strong comment about robbers and terrorist then it would cause American Eagle and others in this forum to refrain from using such labels........or I could have just asked thinking about it now......doh.

Anyways, I agree, looking at the ground reality, it will be unlikely for him to be sentenced to death unleass the Chief Justice decides to make a scene


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## American Eagle

Gazzi said:


> Agnostic Sir.......trigger happy or not, a two lives were taken, course of justice needs to prevail.......I am sure the victims family will want life for life which unfortunately, in reality will not happen due to the current situation in Pakistan........however when American Eagle decides to call the victims robbers, then its merits a response by calling Davis an American terrorist, as the investigation is ongoing and court trial looming........



A robber is a crook, with a public record, same day, same spot in Lahore, of holding up an innocent Paksitani man who filed his own police report against them a short time before they tried but failed to successfully rob Mr. Davis. Those are hard facts.

Please start saying your prayers for the deserving innocent 35 Lahore Pakitanis murdered there in Lahore with 180 more innocent Lahore Pakistanis wounded in the same terrorist suicide blast... the day before the two robbers robbed an innocent Paksitani man then failed to rob an American, starting most recently with the Lahore suicide bombing in Lahore which took 35 Pakistani civilian lives and wounded 180 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children. Surely we can agree on this?

I have been prayinig for these Pakistani murdered and wounded innocent men, women, and childlren myself for several days now.

Our US churches have also been praying for the Pakistani flood victums and continuing to donate to relief work of displaced Pakitanis over there through our various denomination churches over here.

And look at your internal news media in Pakistan to see the increasing number of robberies nationwide, which the Pakistani police and officials tell your medial relate to funding raising at the point of a gun by terrorists [who some see as merely crooks] who in many instances are raising money for terrorism, the violent form of the Taliban and al Qaida.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

logic said:


> The Law of the land must take its course whatever that may be without prejudice or persecution.



Certainly, but if the US is able to establish diplomatic immunity for the suspect in court, do you not agree that Pakistan is bound to then honor it and release the suspect (and likely ban him from Pakistan in the future)?

Unless of course Pakistan is able to convince the US to waive diplomatic immunity in return for prosecutors pursuing a lesser charge that results in a few years imprisonment.

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## VCheng

Agnostic Muslim: Thank you for the much needed voice of sanity in this thread.

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## pak-marine

people no point having a kachehri here , bloody debate is going to take another 10000 posts ... let the courts decide .. if police has a solid case let the law decide their fate.


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## Gazzi

American Eagle said:


> A robber is a crook, with a public record, same day, same spot in Lahore, of holding up an innocent Paksitani man who filed his own police report against them a short time before they tried but failed to successfully rob Mr. Davis. Those are hard facts.
> 
> Please start saying your prayers for the deserving innocent 35 Lahore Pakitanis murdered there in Lahore with 180 more innocent Lahore Pakistanis wounded in the same terrorist suicide blast... the day before the two robbers robbed an innocent Paksitani man then failed to rob an American., starting most recently with the Lahore suicide bombing in Lahore which took 35 civilian lives and wounded 180 innocenet Pakistani men, women, and children. Surely we can agree on this...and I have been prayinig for these souls and they wounded from over here as I am a caring Christian and respect and grieve for wrongly taken innocent Pakistani lives there in Lahore.
> 
> And look at your internal news media in Pakistan to see the increasing number of robberies nationwide, which the Pakistani police and officials tell your medial relate to funding raising at the point of a gun by terrorists who some see as crooks, who in instances are raising money for terrorims, the violent form of the Taliban and al Qaida.



For crying out loud...........will you stop derailing the thread and stick to the topic...........

Dozens of witnesses came forward and said the victims were not trying to rob Davis however the Christian terrorist opened fire on them as they were riding off, shooiting them in their backs......HARD FACTS like wise........

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## Zaynaa

pak-marine said:


> people no point having a kachehri here , bloody debate is going to take another 10000 posts ... let the courts decide .. if police has a solid case let the law decide their fate.



To the guillotine!!!


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## American Eagle

Gazzi said:


> For crying out loud...........will you stop derailing the thread and stick to the topic...........
> 
> Dozens of witnesses came forward and said the victims were not trying to rob Davis however the Christian terrorist opened fire on them as they were riding off, shooiting them in their backs......HARD FACTS like wise........



Not facts at all.

Facts are the crooks had just held up a Pakistani man who had justed called in the police to report being robbed by them. That is your starting point.

Then the two crooks tried to rob the unexpecting American in his car. 

Also, US Ambassador has established through and with Pakistani police officials that these two had an otherwise previous criminal history and they were illegally armed themselves, using their guns to try to hold up the Amerian.

Many actual facts here and there vs. sheer rumor mongering and false statements of some who simply wish ill on the US these days.


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## logic

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Certainly, but if the US is able to establish diplomatic immunity for the suspect in court, do you not agree that Pakistan is bound to then honor it and release the suspect (and likely ban him from Pakistan in the future)?
> 
> Unless of course Pakistan is able to convince the US to waive diplomatic immunity in return for prosecutors pursuing a lesser charge that results in a few years imprisonment.



Two issues that you have raised are
1. Diplomatic Immunity
The verdict is still out both sides with competing statements but as for now the person is in JUDICIAL CUSTODY.

President the Prime Minister the Chief Minister indeed the whole gang of thugs and goons have said that the court will decide the matter regarding the matter. The subject has immunity or no immunity is not going to be decide in a chat forum but instead in front of Magistrate in due course of time.

2. Sentence
This will depend on the first if he indeed is determined by the court that the suspect has immunity then he may be tried for homicide in a US court or if he has no immunity then the JURY IS STILL OUT.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

American Eagle said:


> Not facts at all.
> 
> Facts are the crooks had just held up a Pakistani man who had justed called in the police to report being robbed by them. That is your starting point.
> 
> Then the two crooks tried to rob the unexpecting American in his car.
> 
> Also, US Ambassador has established through and with Pakistani police officials that these two had an otherwise previous criminal history and they were illegally armed themselves, using their guns to try to hold up the Amerian.
> 
> Many actual facts here and there vs. sheer rumor mongering and false statements of some who simply wish ill on the US these days.



With all due respect sir, you are going to continue banging your head against a wall and further continue this argument by 'making the case' for the suspect.

It would be better to merely defer to the legal process and the courts, and the efforts of the US to establish diplomatic immunity for the suspect in the courts.

Would like to hear your take on whether you think the US should waive diplomatic immunity for the individual concerned if the initial investigation does not support the attempted robbery claim(though I do think that the suspect acted the way he did because he believed he was being robbed), and Pakistani prosecutors agree to charge the suspect with a lesser crime than criminal homicide.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

logic said:


> The subject has immunity or no immunity is not going to be decide in a chat forum but instead in front of Magistrate in due course of time.


Absolutely, let the courts figure this out instead of raising hysteria in the public sphere, on both sides.


> 2. Sentence
> This will depend on the first if he indeed is determined by the court that the suspect has immunity then he may be tried for homicide in a US court or if he has no immunity then the JURY IS STILL OUT.


If the suspect does have diplomatic immunity, can he be tried for the alleged crime in the US?


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## Gazzi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If the suspect does have diplomatic immunity, can he be tried for the alleged crime in the US?



Agnostic............simple answer is no.....

The US ambassador must refer to Washington with regards to the waiver of his immunity if he has any......however, if the course of action is to enforce the Vienna convention then Pakistan must release the suspect and and such be deported to the US, whereby he will undoutedly face health and safety misconduct hearing along with other company in house regulation violations unless he has a good barrister, and claim self defence......but the process will be totally different and not a criminal hearing at all.......

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## ThunderCat

Another piece of interesting material. Again don't know how accurate, but still interesting. 

US Men killing Civillians with illegal firearms, over-speeding & Traffic Violations &#8211; &#8220;Diplomats&#8221; gone Nuts or Well-trained Spies&#8217; mission gone bad? Part 1 Omer Zaheer Meer's Blog



> Recently 3 Innocent lives were lost in the heart of Islamic Republic of Pakistan while more than a dozen people including women and children were severely injured, unfortunately at the hands of Americans roaming around suspiciously in busy areas of the city of Lahore with illegal arms and driving at high-speed breaking the one-way traffic route and crushing innocent bystanders and bicyclists under their 4×4.
> 
> The incident raised many questions while flaming the emotions of a strategically placed nuclear-nation of 180 Million people with a freed Judiciary, powerful military, unpopular government and powerful media, all crying out loud for just one thing &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.
> 
> JUSTICE WITHOUT COMPROMISE
> 
> Before proceeding further on the matter, let us examine the matter with the stances from different sides, eyewitness accounts, the relatives of the murder victims and injured, public at large, stance of one of the culprits (remember his accomplice and the murderer who was driving the 4×4 fled the scene) Pakistan&#8217;s Government and the USA&#8217;s official stance.
> 
> Eyewitness Accounts:
> 
> The picture of the incident as reported through the words of eyewitnesses emerge as below:
> 
> a) The area was highly congested and traffic move very closely (it is very normal for people in the city and in many western cities including in Central London)
> 
> b) The American (called as Raymond Davis) shot at the back of two bike riders
> 
> c) One of them died on the spot
> 
> d) The other was in his dying moments when Raymond started taking pictures and making video of his dying moments and his dead companion
> 
> e) There was NO apparent provocation
> 
> *f)When asked why he killed them he said he &#8220;acted in self-defense&#8221; in &#8220;URDU&#8221; the local national language which American Diplomats usually CANNOT speak.*
> 
> *g) He also shot at the Traffic Warden while trying to flee
> *
> *h) When surrounded by cops and public and stuck in traffic Raymond pointed his weapons at the cops initially*
> 
> i) The 4×4 which came to his rescue got stuck in traffic near jail road, Lahore and decided to break the law by entering the wrong side of a busy road at very HIGH speeds and killed atleast one innocent motorcyclist on the spot while injuring some pedestrians
> 
> *j) While trying to flee Raymond hit a Rickshaw (local public transport vehicle for small number of passengers) which resulted in it turning upside down and injuring the women and kids in it while hitting some pedestrians who were later treated in the hospital
> *
> As per the relatives of the murder victims and injured:
> 
> k) Answering why ONE of the victims had a gun they clarified that it was a properly licensed weapon for personal safety as his Elder brother was murdered due to some rivalries and he was threatened
> 
> l) Confirmed that one of the motorcyclist got married 3 months ago and one was to marry within next couple of months
> 
> m) Pointed out to police confirmation that NONE has any criminal records before
> 
> n) Drew attention to the eyewitness confirmation that there was NO PROVOCATION and they did not aim at or approach the American
> 
> o) Referred to the autopsy report confirming that both were SHOT FROM THE BACK, MULTIPLE TIMES (Self defense?)
> 
> Public at large:
> 
> There is huge public outcry over the unprovoked murders in broad daylight in a busy center of the city by foreign nationals carrying ILLEGAL FIREARMS & BREAKING TRAFFIC LAWS.
> 
> The matter is seen as a test case for the hugely unpopular government.
> 
> Stance of one of the culprits (referred to as Mr. Raymond Davis):
> 
> One of the accomplice of Mr. Davis was reported to have fled in the &#8220;Rescue 4×4 Vehicle&#8221;, the driver of which is also at large after he KILLED another civilian motorcyclist when it entered a one-way road from the wrong way at high-speed. The culprits are with the American Consulate despite it&#8217;s promises to surrender the driver and the 4×4 involved in the traffic violations, injuring and killing of civilians, as confirmed by the Punjab Law Minister Mr. RanaSanaullah .
> 
> Since the other 2 accomplices are at large, only Raymond Davis&#8217; stance is known as of yet.
> 
> Raymond has claimed that:
> 
> * he works as &#8220;technical advisor&#8221; with the American consulate in Lahore
> * that the guys &#8220;wanted&#8221; to rob him
> * previously he claimed that they aimed the weapon at him which was denied by eye witnesses and later retracted by him
> 
> * he acted in &#8220;self-defense&#8221;
> * he will apologise to the relatives of the deceased
> * (as per police sources) he &#8220;suspected&#8221; he was about to be kidnapped or attacked
> 
> Stance of Pakistan&#8217;s Government:
> 
> Mr. RanaSanaullah, the provincial law minister is reported to have told that:
> 
> * the man&#8217;s identity documents including passport names him as &#8220;Raymond Davis&#8221;
> * his address is of USA
> * he is with the USA consulate
> * he had the firearm ILLEGALLY
> * atleast 3 cell phones and illegal firearms were recovered from Raymond Davis
> * the murder victims have a clean record with regards to robberies
> * one of the murdered civilian&#8217;s brother was killed a few days ago and had kept a licensed firearm for self-protection with proper authorisation
> * the murders were unprovoked
> * USA consulate promised to surrender the 4×4 and the driver who violated traffic laws and killed another civilian
> * they will &#8220;follow&#8221; the law and would &#8220;not&#8221; surrender to the pressures
> * why was Raymond travelling in the center of the city WITHOUT informing any government official?
> * why was Raymond carrying ILLEGAL FIREARMS?
> * what was Raymond doing in the MOST BUSY area of Lahore city?
> 
> In another development, there was protest in the Assembly when a member of the ruling PPP asked the Federal Interior Minister, Mr. Abdul Rehman Malik to apologise for pressuring the Police officer incharge to let Raymond go free.
> 
> Mr. Malik denied the accusation.
> 
> Independent media reports and police officials confirmed the incident.
> 
> USA&#8217;s official stance:
> 
> After a long silence and careful silence USA has demanded release of Raymond Davis and backtracked on its promise to surrender the Murderer who was driving the 4×4 along with the vehicle.
> 
> Washington Post reported &#8220;U.S. Embassy demands release of &#8216;unlawfully detained&#8217; diplomat who shot 2 Pakistanis&#8221;
> 
> Strange was the behaviour of the American officials who:
> 
> * claimed his name taken from his passport was NOT his real name (Fraud?)
> * claimed he was a civilian official with the USA Consulate in Lahore
> * REFUSED to disclose the position at the Consulate
> * REFUSED to disclose the Real Name
> * REFUSED to answer what was he doing in the Busy Center of Lahore
> * No diplomatic immunity covers murder
> * Diplomatic immunity is different for different officials, lesser for consular and even lesser for the consulate employees

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## architect_cobb

Here is a clip from Najam Sethi. The salient points that he is making:-

1) Both the bike riders had pistols.
2) They stopped him and got of the bike.
3) One was shot in the front and side with gun in his hand

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat 31st January 2011 Part 1

Now please don't start bashing him and calling him a traitor.

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## pakdefender

I see Najam Sethi got his lifafa , Kamran Shafi has got one too and soon Asma Jhangir , and Nadeem "Fruitcake" Paracha will get one too.

There is a mountain of evidence against the killer , who is no diplomat but a Xe/Blackwater type contractor and whose status in the country is dubious.

I hope the courts dont come under pressure and convict this criminal , if the courts will not do their job then next time justice will be done by the public at the spot.


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## architect_cobb

pakdefender said:


> I see Najam Sethi got his lifafa , Kamran Shafi has got one too and soon Asma Jhangir , and Nadeem "Fruitcake" Paracha will get one too.
> 
> There is a mountain of evidence against the killer , who is no diplomat but a Xe/Blackwater type contractor and whose status in the country is dubious.
> 
> I hope the courts dont come under pressure and convict this criminal , if the courts will not do their job then next time justice will be done by the public at the spot.



You are an american in a country where:-
1) You know you are a prime target for kidnapping and murder.
2) where recently chinese french and polish diplomats/engineers have been killed.
3) Where foreigners once kidnapped are more prone to be beheaded than anything else.
4) Where car jacking is a norm of the day.


In such a scenario when you suddenly come across a scenario where a few armed men try to stop you with their guns drawn, what would you do? 

Having said that the question that should be asked is not about Davis but about the govt that why are such personnel allowed in our country on diplomatic passports. Why have they been given a green signal to roam about freely and what sort of agreement is there between the two govts facilitiating this.

Unfortunately our emotional nation would always be happy with superficial acts and as they call in Punjabi Bharrak. But these bharraks neither look good in the international community nor do they solve any problems. IMHO.


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## sur

http://ejang.jang.com.pk/2-1-2011/Karachi/pic.asp?picname=1028.gif


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## khurasaan1

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Good enough ...!
> The fact is you have shown your hypocrisy and despite all that you have mocked people here for bearing wild and military bully like thoughts and time and again advised them to control there emotions, yet you fail to give any such advise to any American members on board despite there utmost display of hypocrisy in defending a retard murderer who killed three innocent Pakistanis in broad day light speaks out to a great deal about your motives and feelings towards Pakistanis in general and Pakistan on the whole.
> Even if your are fond of advising people to control there emotions in the light of all what happened , at least it should be free of double standards which is well evident through your posts.



that suckr should be hung in the public this will send clear message t to evil Cia murderer agencies of US to fukoff and stay away from Pak otherwise u will get fukdup like him...excuze me for my language but this is typical American dialogue...cuz we need to talk to evilz in their language...


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## khurasaan1

sur said:


> Jang Multimedia



Alhamdolillah they got the right guy in right time...insha-Allah with the grace of almighty Allah (sbwt) the justice will be done...


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

pakdefender said:


> I see Najam Sethi got his lifafa , Kamran Shafi has got one too and soon Asma Jhangir , and Nadeem "Fruitcake" Paracha will get one too.
> 
> There is a mountain of evidence against the killer , who is no diplomat but a Xe/Blackwater type contractor and whose status in the country is dubious.
> 
> I hope the courts dont come under pressure and convict this criminal , if the courts will not do their job then next time justice will be done by the public at the spot.



am not taking any sides or anything but media is just creating a smoke screen, end of the day its media, i agree with some of his points but the actual scenario is still in the wild, not confirmed info what actually happened,
- first it was said that bullets entered the two bodies from behind, now this guy says both had bullets at the front?

- they actually stopped the car? why would davis stop in first place, simply ran over them? thats what i would do rather than shooting

- getting out of the car and taking photos, i wont do that if those guys tried to rob me, however taking it for the sake of evidence i would do

- how authenticate are these so called facts by Najam Sethi

but again these are just assumptions, and not the clear facts, i wonder how much Najam Sethi got just to make that up, this guy don't even knows what was the suspect's name and saying these are the real facts not stories. lol

Long live


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## Hulk

Mr Davis will be released once the matter settles down, maybe 15 days maximum. Whatever his visa status is or whoever is guilty.

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

indianrabbit said:


> Mr Davis will be released once the matter settles down, maybe 15 days maximum. Whatever his visa status is or whoever is guilty.



hard to digest but thats what the truth is, end of the day, hes gonna walk out of this country

a bit irrelevant but if US State Department is hiring these mercenaries, what happened to the good old SAD/SOG to do their dirty work?


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## RescueRanger

[Pakistani]-evilX;1453676 said:


> a bit irrelevant but if US State Department is hiring these mercenaries, what happened to the good old SAD/SOG to do their dirty work?



Nothing new here. This has been going on since the cold war.


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## ajtr

may be pakistan can swap Raymond Davis for Aafia Siddiqui as india swapped warren anderson for Adil Shahryar.


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## RescueRanger

ajtr said:


> may be pakistan can swap Raymond Davis for Aafia Siddiqui as india swapped warren anderson for Adil Shahryar.



Lets put it this way... Our present government doesn't have the balls to be that forward with their paymasters back in Captiol Hill. Besides the story of poor Dr. Aafia is complicated.

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## RescueRanger

Chief Justice Lahore High Court: 
"Raymond Davis not to be handed over to the consulate"
"Raymond Davis not to be allowed to return to the US"
"Instructs FIA to place Mr. Davis on the Exit Control List as for today".
Source: Dawn Tv

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## RescueRanger

sur said:


> Jang Multimedia



Apparently spell checker is hard, he/she spelt *velocity* as Velosity.

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## ajtr

*Equality in the eyes of the law in Pakistan​*

BY HUMA IMTIAZ, JANUARY 31, 2011





It seemed to be simple case of shooting in self-defense in a busy street in Lahore, after being threatened at gunpoint by robbers. The twists in the narrative, however, have made it into a front-page story here in Pakistan. The person who killed the two men, Faizan and Faheem, was Raymond Davis, a U.S. citizen and reportedly a member of the U.S. Embassy staff. And when Davis called the U.S consulate in Lahore for help, a staff member allegedly killed another person, Ubaid ur Rehman, in a hit-and-run accident after speeding down on the wrong side of the road in an attempt to reach Davis.

Davis has been arrested, and is in police custody in Lahore. Pakistani authorities, eager to stake their claims about the sovereignty of the Pakistani nation and the rule of law, have vowed to not hand over Davis until an investigation into the matter is completed. Members of political and religious parties have urged the government not to release Davis, while anonymous text messages have circulated asking the government to swap Davis for Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, the Pakistani neuroscientist who was convicted and sentenced to life in prison in an American court last fall for attempting to murder her U.S. interrogators in Afghanistan.

The Davis incident brings up many questions. Firstly, who IS Raymond Davis? Reports are still mixed. According to ABC News, Davis is a private security officer. The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad calls Davis a "diplomat". The truth is anyone's guess.

The U.S Embassy says Davis was "assigned to the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, has a U.S. diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012." They have called for his release, saying that as a diplomat, Davis has immunity under the Vienna Convention. But on Sunday night, Dawn News, a local Urdu channel, broadcast what it says are images of Davis' passport -- which did not have a diplomatic visa.

The Davis incident has already added fuel to the fire that is known as U.S.-Pakistan relations. In a country where the U.S. enjoys very little popularity, an incident of a "diplomat" shooting two Pakistanis, whether they were robbers or not, has helped fuel anti-U.S. sentiment. At a protest, organized in Karachi by Jamaat-e-Islami, a religious party, hundreds of protestors condemned the incident.

Local newspapers with right-wing, anti-American leanings, such as The Nation, ran headlines such as "'American Rambo' goes berserk in City", whereas Urdu newspaper columnists have urged that the law be allowed to take its course.

Others have asked questions about what Davis was doing in Pakistan, and why he tried fleeing the scene after the incident. Columnist Ejaz Haider asked, "Why did Davis try to run away from the scene after displaying the calm ability to shoot a pistol with a steady hand, get out of the car, make a video of the bodies, and talk to someone on the wireless?" The News' Ansar Abbasi, a right-wing columnist with a strong anti-American streak, cited previous incidents of embassy officials in Pakistan involved in carrying weapons. The News also ran a story titled "How U.S. behaves when diplomats commit crimes."

As the tug-of-war continues between the U.S. and Pakistani governments over Davis' immunity and whether he should be tried for murder or not, there is an urgent need for diplomacy and tact in this case. If Davis is not actually a diplomat, the U.S. Embassy should allow Pakistani law to take its course if it would like to improve its reputation in the country.

However, the issue, which has already been politicized, will take a nasty turn for the worse if Davis is indeed a diplomat, and enjoys diplomatic immunity in the case. Religious and political parties, aided by columnists and sections of the media with anti-U.S. slant, will blame the Pakistani government for ceding to the U.S. government's demands, regardless of the facts of the case.

Secondly, it is ironic that religious and political parties are demanding justice in this case, and yet turn a blind eye to the injustices within Pakistan, and those blatantly and proudly flouting the rule of law. Mumtaz Qadri -- who killed the governor of Punjab, Salmaan Taseer, in cold blood because of his support for changing Pakistan's controversial blasphemy laws -- has been lauded as a hero and defender of Islam, while Davis, who may have been acting in mere self-defense from potential robbers, is called a demon. If everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, political leaders in Pakistan need to remember to demand justice for anyone who takes the law into their own hands.

Huma Imtiaz works as a journalist in Pakistan and can be reached at huma.imtiaz@gmail.com.


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## ajtr

RescueRanger said:


> Lets put it this way... Our present government doesn't have the balls to be that forward with their paymasters back in Captiol Hill. Besides the story of poor Dr. Aafia is complicated.


 case is sub judice now.Govt. as of today cant implement usa demands even if it want to be.

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## RabzonKhan

I am a strong supporter of Pak-US relations, but sorry to say, even I cant defend this trigger happy cowboy. 

With diplomat like these, who needs enemies!




*Pak-US intersection*

Dawn
Jan 02 2011

IF this is the age of information we are living in, we could certainly do without the variety in `factual` versions that are often bandied about to describe one event and one situation. *Take Raymond David. We know he is an American accused of killing two young men in a shootout in Lahore, with the ensuing panic resulting in the death of another Pakistani youngster. The argument is yet ongoing whether he is a diplomat or not, and about the motive behind the shooting. For an incident as serious as that, the US authorities took awfully long to claim diplomatic immunity for the gentleman * leaving aside the debate whether the Americans should have sought the option while reports suggested the accused was to claim it as an act in self-defence. The delayed `request` for immunity lent greater uncertainty to an already explosive situation which highlighted the uneasy nature of the Pak-US relationship. *Groups in the country saw in the incident potential to whip up anti-US emotion and even the more objective Pakistanis termed it a test case for their government and other state institutions. Rule of law and the dispensing of justice on a non-discriminatory basis has been a subject close to Pakistanis` hearts in recent times.* They want a fair trial. A large number of them are not all too pleased with what they see as US pressure on Islamabad. *This complicates the situation, which can only be saved through a fair, transparent and uninterrupted hearing of the case.* 

A few things can be sorted out right now, though, in the interests of clarity, justice and equality in relationship. *For instance, while so many voices here blame the Americans for trying to manufacture a diplomatic identity for the accused, what stops Islamabad from coming up with an answer to this crucial question? Surely, the records of the Pakistan government would show what category of visa its mission stamped on Mr David`s passport.* Islamabad`s silence over the subject gives credence to all the talk as to how a weak government customarily seeks refuge in ambiguity at a time when it is faced with popular sentiment on one side and pressure from the world superpower on the other.

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## RescueRanger

Thomas said:


> Gazzi are you a british policeman or Pakistani? I seem to remember you with a british flag. Seems strange to hear someone claiming to be a policemen to believe the 9/11 demolition story. Even Osama has admitted to being behind it.



Relevance to this discussion Thomas sir?


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## RescueRanger

ajtr said:


> case is sub judice now.Govt. as of today cant implement usa demands even if it want to be.



Hahaha...You don't know Pakistan, trust me. Let's just put it that way. 
The only reason this guy is not on a BD-700 is because the government is (if you pardon the crude language "Shitting Bricks" because of Egypt).


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## JonAsad

Well i think its going to be a tug of war between Zardari's government and Courts. 
The former wants to make his payers happy, and later wants justice.
and i still believe in our Judiciary system a little bit.

Mr Davis will be set free, but its going to be interesting.


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## flameboard

Thy're saying he's probably going to court. He should be sentenced with life in prison or be exchanged for all innocent civilians living US prisons like the ones Musharraf sold for $2000


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Pakistan judge blocks move to hand over US gunman*

By Waqar Hussain (AFP) 

LAHORE, Pakistan  A Pakistani judge on Tuesday blocked any move to hand over to US authorities an American government employee under investigation for double murder, and put his name on the exit control list.

The United States on Monday again called for the release of Raymond Davis, who was arrested after killing two Pakistani motorcyclists in broad daylight in Lahore, saying that he acted in legitimate self-defence.

But a Pakistani lawyer petitioned the Lahore high court under public interest laws to block any move to hand Davis over to the United States.

"I am restraining him (from being handed over to US authorities). Whether he has or does not have (diplomatic) immunity will be decided by the court," ruled Lahore high court chief justice Ijaz Ahmed Chaudhry.

"An order is issued to put his name on the ECL (exit control list). The case is adjourned for 15 days."

Representing the Pakistani government in court in Lahore, deputy attorney general Naveed Inayat Malik, asked the judge to give "time" to the Pakistani foreign ministry to determine whether Davis has diplomatic immunity or not.

Washington says Davis is a member of the US embassy's "technical administrative staff" and therefore entitled to "full criminal immunity".

"He cannot be lawfully arrested or detained in accordance with the Vienna Convention," US State Department spokesman Philip Crowley told reporters in Washington.

But the Pakistani lawyer who brought the private petition, Saeed Zafar, has argued that under international law, diplomatic immunity can be waived for the most serious crimes.

Khawaja Haris, the advocate general of Punjab -- the chief law officer in the province where Davis shot the motorcyclists -- told the court that the Vienna Convention provides immunity to diplomats "within certain limits."

"The federal government has to give a certificate on whether the man has diplomatic immunity or not and whether his diplomatic status is confirmed or not," Haris said.

"What we hear about him and his immunity is through the press only. Since he is involved in a grave crime, this issue has to be decided by the court."

But Washington is adamant that Davis is being held unlawfully and supports his version of events that he was confronted by two armed men on motorcycles.

Davis "had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. And minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal records, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen," said Crowley.

When asked by visiting US congressmen on Monday to free Davis, Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari said: "It would be prudent to wait for the legal course to be completed".

AFP: Pakistan judge blocks move to hand over US gunman

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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan court blocks move to release US man*
A Pakistani court has ordered the authorities not to release a US man who killed two men in Lahore last week.

The Lahore high court also ordered the government to place the name of Raymond Davis on the "exit control list" to prevent him from leaving Pakistan.

The US embassy has called for his release, saying he has diplomatic status and is immune from prosecution.

Pakistan says he does not have immunity and is not one of the foreign security personnel authorised to carry firearms.

Mr Davis is in custody while police investigate the shooting. He has been charged with the murder of the two men.

*Tougher stance*
The US embassy in Islamabad has argued that he is a consulate employee who acted in "self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles" on 27 January.

Mr Davis is said to have told police that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger tried to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint.

As Mr Davis' colleagues came to his aid, their vehicle ran over and killed a third person.

Lawyers in Lahore have filed a petition to the High Court arguing that Mr Davis must stand trial in Pakistan and not be handed over to the US government.

The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Pakistan says that speculation is rife over the true position of Mr Davis.

*Our correspondent says that the US authorities pursued a soft tone immediately following the incident, but they have now hardened their stance and argued that he should be released according to the Vienna Convention.*

*Pakistani authorities say it increasingly appears that Mr Davis was a private security contractor working for the US government in Pakistan.
*
They said that a Glock pistol was recovered from Mr Davis and that pistols were also found on the two men who were shot dead.

Mr Davis's permanent employer, according to the Huffington Post website, is a company called Hyperion Protective Consultants LLC based in Orlando, Florida.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12331587


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Reluctant regretin ten words*

From the moment Raymond Davis, or whatever his real name, shot two young Pakistanis dead near the busy Mozang Churangi on Lahores Jail Road and contributed to the death of a third one in an avoidable traffic accident, the US government started making efforts to claim diplomatic immunity for the killer who confessed to the crime, taking the plea of self-defence. 

*In fact, every effort is being made to influence the police investigations and stall the judicial process. One evidence of this is the refusal of US diplomats to hand over the second vehicle and the driver and persons riding it when it crushed to death 25-year-old Obaidur Rahman, the trader from Shah Alam Market who had no role in the incident involving Davis and the two presumed robbers. *

*The US government is trying to bully Pakistani authorities to release Davis by accusing the police of unlawfully detaining him in violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Thereby, it also wants to avoid handing over the Americans and possibly their Pakistani employees to the police for investigation into the death of Obaidur Rahman due to rash driving. And all this is being done in the name of diplomatic immunity, which has been described by sections of the Pakistani media as license to kill. *

*The long, seven-paragraph statement issued by the US embassy on the Jan 27 incident carried only 10 words regretting the loss of life. We regret that this incident resulted in loss of life, is all that the embassy would say about the death of Obaidur Rahman, an innocent man riding his motorcycle when the fleeing US consulate vehicle, which was in violation of the one-way traffic rule, hit and killed him. It is this kind of insensitivity that further inflames the anti-US sentiment in Pakistan.*

The vague statement apparently wasnt meant to refer to the deaths of the other two men, 23-year old Faizan Haider, and Mohammad Faheem, 21, because it clearly mentioned that they had criminal backgrounds and had minutes earlier robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area.

Having presumed that these two armed men on motorcycles were criminals, and that diplomat Davis acted in self-defence because he had every reason to believe that they meant him bodily harm, the US embassy is convinced that the killer can neither be arrested by Pakistani police nor tried in a local court due to diplomatic immunity. The police, on the other hand, has yet to conclude that Faizan Haider and Faheem had a criminal record, though initially a few senior cops had hinted that the deceased were robbers. According to his family, Faizan Haider was carrying a pistol for self-defence  just like Davis  due to a blood feud in which his brother had been killed a few weeks ago. 

*It is now for the police to investigate and decide if Faizan Haider and Faheem were robbers trying to rob Davis in a busy place in broad daylight.* And it is for the courts to conclude that Davis indeed was a diplomat deserving immunity, in a case in which he fired with his Beretta pistol to kill two Pakistanis and then tried to escape with the help of other American diplomats seated in another vehicle that overran and killed an innocent man.

In fact, it is a straightforward case that professional police investigators would be able to sort out fairly quickly, if they were allowed to work independently. The judicial process too could proceed smoothly if there was no political pressure. If the past is any guide, this is unlikely to happen. Politics and diplomacy have already come into play in the case and the mighty United States would likely exert enough pressure on the spineless Pakistani rulers to do the needful. 

*If the Americans have their way and Davis is declared a diplomat enjoying immunity, then he would have to be returned to the US to face the judicial process at home.* The way the US embassy is trying to protect him from Pakistans law, it would be hard to convince the families of the deceased men and the Pakistani people that justice would be done in case he goes on trial in the US. 

There have been cases in which Americans committing crimes abroad against non-Americans, including the ones in which US soldiers murdered innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan, have got away with light sentences. Already, many emotional Pakistanis are comparing Davis case with that of Dr Aafia Siddiqui  the frail woman of Pakistani origin sentenced to 86 years imprisonment for firing at and causing injuries to an American soldier in Afghanistan while she was in custody  and demanding that Davis should be publicly hanged. Others want Dr Aafia swapped with Davis, even though it is a bizarre idea because the two persons and their cases are so dissimilar. The US would probably be able to save Davis, but the cost in terms of losing whatever goodwill it has in Pakistan would be unusually high.

Many aspects of the incident are unclear. Even Davis real name is unknown because, during a briefing in Washington, State Department spokesman P J Crowley said the mans name has been misreported. He refused to disclose his real identity, or the kind of work he was assigned to do in Pakistan. He also didnt explain as to why the accused was carrying a firearm, which was obviously an unlawful act. The movements of the 40-year-old Davis were also mysterious as the Lahore police wasnt informed about them. All this gave rise to suspicion that the Americans were trying to hide something to conceal Davis identity and his activities.

The US embassy insisted that Davis had a diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012. The Pakistani authorities have contested the US claim that Davis was a diplomat, though they agree that he was a technical adviser working at the US consulate in Lahore. ABC News, a leading US media network, had earlier unearthed Davis identity, reporting that he was an employee of Hyperion Protective Consultants, a Florida-based private security company. 

The way Davis fired 13 bullets with his pistol, shooting through the rear screen of his car, giving no chance to Faizan Haider and Faheem to fire back, showed that he was no ordinary diplomat. He was, more probably, a sharpshooter, who calmly made video clips of the two dead or dying men before trying to speed away. Was he, then, an undercover agent on special assignment, as many Pakistanis and sections of the media have been alleging? 

All three Pakistanis killed by the Americans in Lahore that day were on motorcycles. Robbers riding motorbikes cannot have much of a chance chasing and overpowering a trained, fully armed undercover foreign agent seated securely inside a car.

On Feb 3 last year, the veil on the presence of US military personnel in Pakistan was partially lifted when three American soldiers were killed and two others were injured in a suicide bombing carried out by the Pakistani Taliban in Lower Dir district in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The blast also killed five Pakistanis, including Frontier Corps militiamen escorting the Americans, and injured 131, mostly schoolgirls from a nearby school. Every effort was made to disguise the Americans, who were dressed in shalwar-kameez and wearing local caps, as they were being driven to inspect a school destroyed by the militants and rebuilt with US money. 

That was the first time that Pakistanis came to know that members of the US Special Forces, at least 200 of them, were secretly operating in their country, ostensibly providing counterinsurgency training to the paramilitary Frontier Corps. The Pakistani government and military had hidden this information from their people. Who knows how many others like Davis are in Pakistan on secret missions, with or without the agreement of the Pakistani authorities.



The writer is resident editor of The News in Peshawar. Email: rahim yusufzai@yahoo.com

Reluctant regret?in ten words

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## AstanoshKhan

*FIR Registered Against Davis for Using Illegal Weapon*

Submitted by HQ on February 1, 2011  5:25 am
8Share

LAHORE: *A First Information Report (FIR) was registered on Monday against US citizen Raymond Davis for using an illegal weapon when he gunned down two men in Lahore.*






_American under cover agent Raymond Allen Davis arrested for cold blooded murder in broad daylight_

*The case against Davis has been registered on the investigation officers statement.*

Davis is in the custody of the Lahore Police and is being questioned. Earlier, Davis was awarded a six-day physical remand by a court in Lahore.

*Police have sent their investigation report to the Punjab government. The report states that Davis, the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore are not cooperating with the police.* It states the officials concerned have not replied to a questionnaire sent to them. The report also claims that the Americans have not given the police information on the driver of a vehicle that ran over a third person during the incident.

Meanwhile, the Punjab government is set to inform the federal government of its investigations till now. It is also in contact with the US embassy and the consulate.

Senior Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) leaders including the chief minister, IG Punjab and the Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) Lahore are meeting to discuss the police report.

Earlier, *Pakistan had rejected the US demand to release Davis, saying that sub judice in a court of law and the legal process should be respected.*

Source: FIR registered against Davis for using illegal weapon &#8211; The Express Tribune

Below you can see the Exclusive scanned copies of Raymond Allen Daviss passport released by DAWN:

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## JonAsad

ThunderCat said:


> Another piece of interesting material. Again don't know how accurate, but still interesting.
> 
> US Men killing Civillians with illegal firearms, over-speeding & Traffic Violations  Diplomats gone Nuts or Well-trained Spies mission gone bad? Part 1 Omer Zaheer Meer's Blog





> ** No diplomatic immunity covers murder*



Can some one shed more light on that? Does it? or It does not?


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## JonAsad

AstanoshKhan said:


>



*Is that a diplomat visa? *


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## Devil Soul

Glorious Resolve said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a diplomat visa? *



i think so bcoz it says OFFICIAL MULTIPLE


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## JonAsad

Devil Soul said:


> i think so bcoz it says OFFICIAL MULTIPLE



Nope, i think it doesn't mean that 

http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/visa/tvisa-niv-dipfaq.html#five

not sure about that, any qualified person?


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## Roybot

So at least now we know for sure that Mr Davis had a valid visa and a Diplomatic passport to go with it.

Eventually Pakistan will have to release him on the ground of Diplomatic immunity and self defense. If they don't then well Pakistan diplomats and embassy over in America better be on their best behavior. Cause next thing you know they ll be getting framed in all sorts of crimes and won't be able to claim immunity under Vienna Convention.

And if Mr Davis is let go, Zardari will loose whatever credibility he has left and good luck to him in the next elections.


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## JonAsad

> *Ordinary passport*, also called tourist passport Issued to average citizens. *Official passport,* also called service passport Issued to government employees for work-related travel, and to accompanying dependents. *Diplomatic passport* Issued to diplomats and consuls for work-related travel, and to accompanying dependents. *Having a diplomatic passport is not the equivalent of having diplomatic immunity.* *A grant of diplomatic status, a privilege of which is diplomatic immunity, has to come from the government of the country in relation to which diplomatic status is claimed.* Also, having a diplomatic passport does not mean visa-free travel.* A holder of a diplomatic passport usually has to obtain a diplomatic visa,* even if a holder of an ordinary passport may enter a country visa-free or may obtain a visa on arrival. In exceptional circumstances, a diplomatic passport is given to a foreign citizen with no passport of his own, such as an exiled VIP who lives, by invitation, in a foreign country.



So i think if its a Diplomatic visa, it should say 

*Type: Diplomatic- Multiple *

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## jha

> ** No diplomatic immunity covers murder*





Glorious Resolve said:


> Can some one shed more light on that? Does it? or It does not?



Diplomatic immunity covers murder..

Article 31 of Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations

*Article 31 *

A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State. He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:

1. a real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State, unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
2. an action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor, administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;
3. an action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in the receiving State outside his official functions.

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## AstanoshKhan

Now this is just an entry visa. Not diplomatic.





It's diplomatic. Started from 13-02-2010 to 30-06-2010



AstanoshKhan said:


>




This states OFFICIAL - MULTIPLE - could be a diplomatic one with the word Official in it.


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## JonAsad

Image of old diplomatic visa, which clearly mentions the word *DIPLOMATIC VISA*
Even if he has a diplomatic visa, he still had to request for the immunity for Pakistan Government.

Do he have it or not?

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## All-Green

Devil Soul said:


> i think so bcoz it says OFFICIAL MULTIPLE



Let us not speculate.
I am sure the details shall be revealed to us as the investigation matures.
Let us hope that this matter is investigated thoroughly instead of covering up things due to the pressure being exerted.
There are a lot of questions which need answering.

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## JonAsad

roy_gourav said:


> So at least now we know for sure that Mr Davis had a valid visa and a Diplomatic passport to go with it.
> 
> Eventually Pakistan will have to release him on the ground of Diplomatic immunity and self defense. If they don't then well Pakistan diplomats and embassy over in America better be on their best behavior. Cause next thing you know they ll be getting framed in all sorts of crimes and won't be able to claim immunity under Vienna Convention.
> 
> And if Mr Davis is let go, Zardari will loose whatever credibility he has left and good luck to him in the next elections.



These are the two things thats complicating the case,

Did he acted on self defense?
Did he have a Diplomatic Immunity?


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## Stealth

I am pretty sure with in 10 - 15 days or maximum 1 month this terrorist will be release because govt of all ISLAMIC NATIONS right now very under pressure because of Egypt revolution. All are American puppet Govt in all ISLAMIC STATES and all Islamic states people extremely hatred towards USA. These Islamic states govt's are not capable to hold even 10 million people who will show some aggression in front of Parliament. We have (Pakistan) are totally different situation. We have people who have different kinds of agenda's. We will never become 1 single objective nation. More over half of population have different kinds of objectives/needs and own style of law-mind. But still govt of Pakistan just holding petrol prices, David Case and rest of all those issues which are directly connected with the people of Pakistan. At least 15 - 20 days govt will do whatever is but in favor of Pakistani. When this Egypt issue will settle down and all kinds of so called perception/estimates/etc like revolution or any civilian aggression on govt (Pakistan) chances will reduce this person 101% released and back to US without any justification or clearance to the people of Pakistan. So govt actually bit scared in fact PPP and Govt of Punjab (Muslim-L-N) also actually playing own games especially PPP right now.


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## mughaljee

^
InshahAllah, Not,


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## Roybot

Glorious Resolve said:


> These are the two things thats complicating the case,
> 
> Did he acted on self defense?
> Did he have a Diplomatic Immunity?



If you have a look at the video of Najam Sethi posted earlier, he addresses both the issues. By looking at some of the earlier posts it seems like Mr Sethi is seen as a paid agent by Pakistanis or whatever, but no harm in keeping an open mind. Here have a look, 

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat 31st January 2011 Part 1

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat 31st January 2011 Part 2

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat 31st January 2011 Part 3

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat 31st January 2011 Part 4

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

@ AstanoshKhan

1 ) that is not the visit visa because the visa type clearly states : Visit Visa , but the scanned copy says Official Business with Single entry even if you call it Business Visit Visa then that is wrong too, Type- Business Visa

2) this one is the same one as above but with multiple entries 

3) this one is the current and valid visa which clearly says Official, so it is a diplomatic visa,

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## Durrak

A Pakistani judge has banned any move to hand over to US authorities an American government employee who is under investigation for double murder.
Lahore High Court Chief Justice, Ijaz Ahmed Chaudhry, ordered on Tuesday that Raymond Davis remain in prison until next week while Pakistani police investigate the shooting,An order is issued to put his name on the ECL (exit control list)..Pakistani media said earlier the US embassy official is an agent for the notorious security firm, Blackwater.


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## Peregrine

According to the judicial proceedings the Court has yet to decide whether he is a diplomat or not, So to say that he is entitled for diplomatic immunity, will only be decided by the court.


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## logic

Court to decide Davis fate: Rehman Malik PDF Print E-mail
ISLAMABAD, Feb 1 (APP): Federal Interior Minister *Rehman Malik on Tuesday categorically stated that central and provincial governments would not hinder the court proceedings regarding Raymond Davis, the US national accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore last week*. Talking to newsmen outside the Parliament House, the minister said that *Raymond&#8217;s fate would be decided by the court.*

SLAMABAD: Ruling out any move to hand over to US authorities its national involved with a double-murder case in Lahore, Pakistan's court directed the government on Tuesday to put his name on the Exit Control List (ECL), to prevent him from leaving Pakistan.

*Raymond Davis, a US citizen, was arrested in Lahore on Thursday after gunning down two persons, Faizan, 22 and Fahim, 17, in broad daylight. A third person was killed when he was hit by a vehicle from the American Consulate in Lahore that was rushing to the rescue of Davis.*

*"I am restraining him (Raymond Davis) from being handed over to US authorities. Whether he has or does not have diplomatic immunity will be decided by the court," Lahore High Court's (LHC) chief justice Ijaz Ahmed Chaudhry said in short court order*.

*"An order is issued to put his name on the exit control list. The case is adjourned for 15 days," it said.*

With anti-American sentiments high, the government in Pakistan has been caught in a difficult situation of how to handle a case involving a citizen of a major donor country. According to sources, President Zardari came under immense pressure on Monday when a six-member US congressional delegation called on him and sought diplomatic immunity for the arrested US national.

A statement released by the US embassy in Islamabad read: "He enjoys diplomatic status and is immune from prosecution in Pakistan." Pakistan's foreign office and home ministry have so far not ascertained the status of the detained man. The government has asked the court on Tuesday for time to determine whether Mr Davis had diplomatic immunity or not. "Once the status of Raymond Davis is confirmed the government will take action accordingly," interior minister Rehman Malik told a private TV station.

However, diplomatic sources in Islamabad said that Raymond Davis had first received a three-month diplomatic visa on a diplomatic passport on request of the US State Department in September 2009. That is the only visa issued to him by the Pakistan embassy in Washington. His presence in Pakistan after the expiry of his first visa in December 2009 was neither known to nor authorised by the Pakistan embassy in Washington or the Foreign Office, sources added


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## logic

*

Raymond Davis incident: What sort of diplomat carries a loaded gun?​*
Raymond Davis incident: What sort of diplomat carries a loaded gun? - Telegraph

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## JonAsad

*Geo News gets post mortem report of Lahore victims
*


LAHORE: Geo News has received the detailed post mortem report of two deceased men, allegedly killed by US citizen David Raymond as later opened fire on them near Abid market at Mazang Chowk.

According to the report, deceased received nine bullets altogether out of which one bullet struck the each deceased from the front.

Doctors from King Edward University conducted post-mortem of Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad.

Report said that Fahim Shamshad, whose post mortem was conducted after 22 hours and 30 minutes of his death, got killed immediately after receiving bullets at 2:45 pm at Lytton road.

It said that there were four wound marks of each bullet on Fahim's body. First bullet hit his head at right side from the back, second at his back, third on left side of his waist while fourth bullet hit its left wrist which passed after touching his left leg.

According to the post mortem of Faizan Haider, he succumbed to injuries in hospital after surviving 1 hour and 35 minutes after the incident. His post mortem was conducted after passing 19 hours and 55 minutes of his death.

Faizan got five wound marks on his body out of which five were of bullets and one was of operation. He received first bullet from the front at left side of his chest, second passed through his left hip, third at left side waist from the back while two bullets passed after touching his left leg.

Geo News gets post mortem report of Lahore victims - GEO.tv


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## JonAsad

*Nice bullets Reymond Davis fired.. and the two alleged robbers did not even fire one?*

out of my mind.


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## Peregrine

The Court has issued orders to restrict Davis from going out of Pakistan, This decision is taken as consequence of several petitions received by the court and one of those petitions states that, instead of prosecuting him in a normal court this matter should be referred to Anti-Terrorism court of Pakistan........... Very Intriguing establishments indeed.


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## ashok321

Peregrine said:


> The Court has issued orders to restrict Davis from going out of Pakistan, This decision is taken as consequence of several petitions received by the court and one of those petitions states that, instead of prosecuting him in a normal court this matter should be referred to Anti-Terrorism court of Pakistan........... Very Intriguing establishments indeed.




The guy is not a terrorist, so why this frivlous request?


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## JonAsad

> Davis was arrested last Thursday. He was driving a Honda Civic alone through Lahore when two men pulled alongside him on a motorbike at traffic lights. According to the US embassy in Islamabad, he saw that one of them had a gun. Apparently fearing that he was about to be robbed, he opened fire, killing both. When US officials arrived to rescue him from a growing mob, they ran over a bystander, resulting in a third death. (I think we can assume that the driver of the second vehicle is no longer in Pakistan.)



The above in an extract from Telegraph UK posted by a non- Pakistani and non-Muslim reporter *Rob Crilly* on a unbaised website. 
Credit to the poster Logic 

where is the report of robbers shooting at him at the front windscreen?
The bullets coming out of rear windscreen and shattering it?

Which stupid news channel/agency is AE following?


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## logic

Geo News gets post mortem report of Lahore victims

Geo News gets post mortem report of Lahore victims - GEO.tv






Rana Bakhtiar resigns over dismissal from Davis case - GEO.tv

*Pak govt to put US consulate official in Exit Control List​*
Pak govt to put US consulate official in Exit Control List - The Times of India

*Murder-accused US diplomat may have been an 'undercover spy': Report*​
Murder-accused US diplomat may have been an 'undercover spy': Report

*Pak Punjab Govt. won't bow to pressure in murder-accused US diplomat's trial: Shahbaz​*
Pak Punjab Govt. won't bow to pressure in murder-accused US diplomat's trial: Shahbaz

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## Patriot

Glorious Resolve said:


> The above in an extract from Telegraph UK posted by a non- Pakistani and non-Muslim reporter *Rob Crilly* on a unbaised website.
> Credit to the poster Logic
> 
> where is the report of robbers shooting at him at the front windscreen?
> The bullets coming out of rear windscreen and shattering it?
> 
> Which stupid news channel/agency is AE following?


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## The HBS Guy

Keeping in mind that many foreigners including Chinese, Americans, French etc. have been killed or kidnapped in the past in Pakistan, Mr. Davis seems to be having a very solid case of self-defense and it's very likely that he will be acquitted even if tried in a Pakistani court.

All he has to prove is that he believed he was going to be robbed and he fired in self-defense.


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## JonAsad

Patriot said:


>



This is Rob Crilly


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## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Mr. Davis seems to be having a very solid case of self-defense and it's very likely that he will be acquitted even if tried in a Pakistani court.
> 
> All he has to prove is that he believed he was going to be robbed and he fired in self-defense.



I don't think so. That is why the US Embassy is pushing to get him off-the-hook before hand. The case is weak. You don't put nine bullets in someone in self-defence. Both of the youth killed had one shot in front and three and four in the back. What does that tell you? They were trying to run away after the first shots.


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## logic

Pakistan Court Refuses To Free American

*Pakistan Court Refuses To Free American​*

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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> I don't think so. That is why the US Embassy is pushing to get him off-the-hook before hand. The case is weak. You don't put nine bullets in someone in self-defence. Both of the youth killed had one shot in front and three and four in the back. What does that tell you? They were trying to run away after the first shots.



I'm not saying how many shots they have and how many they don't.

All I'm saying is that Mr. Davis has to prove that he was convinced that he was going to be kidnapped/robbed/attacked which, considering recent few years' happenings in Pakistan, is not an unlikely scenario, and he is done. 

That's all he has to do.


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## GUNNER

*LAHORE, Pakistan, Feb 1, 2011 (AFP)* - A Pakistani court on Tuesday blocked any move to free a US government employee under investigation for double murder as Washington stepped up calls for his release, citing diplomatic immunity.

The US consular employee, whom Pakistani police identified as Raymond Davis, was arrested last Thursday after shooting dead two motorcyclists, claiming that he acted in self-defence, fearing that they were about to rob him.

A third Pakistani was knocked down and killed by a vehicle from the US consulate in Lahore that tried to rescue Davis. The American was instead arrested by police and a case of double murder registered against him.

The incident has aroused huge controversy in Pakistan, where anti-Americanism is rampant, stirred by Washington's alliance with an unpopular government, the war in Afghanistan and US missile attacks targeting Islamists in the northwest.

A senior Pakistani judge in Lahore on Tuesday blocked any move to hand the American over to US authorities and put his name on the exit control list.

*"I am restraining him (from being handed over to US authorities). Whether he has or does not have (diplomatic) immunity will be decided by the court," ruled Lahore high court chief justice Ijaz Ahmed Chaudhry*.

"An order is issued to put his name on the ECL (exit control list). The case is adjourned for 15 days."

A Pakistani lawyer had petitioned the Lahore high court under public interest laws to block any move to hand Davis over to the United States.

Washington says its employee belongs to its US embassy's "technical administrative staff" and is therefore entitled to "full criminal immunity".

*US television network ABC reported that Davis is a private security officer with experience in the US Special Forces*.

Representing the Pakistani government in court, deputy attorney general Naveed Inayat Malik asked the judge to give "time" to the Pakistani foreign ministry to determine whether Davis has diplomatic immunity or not.

The United States on Monday again called for the American's release, saying that he acted in legitimate self-defence.

"He cannot be lawfully arrested or detained in accordance with the Vienna Convention," US State Department spokesman Philip Crowley told reporters.

Visiting US congressmen asked President Asif Ali Zardari to free Davis. 

The head of state told them: "It would be prudent to wait for the legal course to be completed," according to his office.

Washington is adamant that Davis is being held unlawfully and supports his version of events that he was confronted by two armed men on motorcycles.

Davis "had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. And minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal records, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen," said Crowley.

Police told AFP they recovered a Glock pistol, four loaded magazines, a GPRS navigation system and small telescope from the American's car.

From the two Pakistanis, an officer said on condition of anonymity that police found two pistols, magazine belts and four mobile phones, at least two of which they believe could have been stolen.

The officer described one of them as a street robber "wanted" in connection with three or four incidents and the other as his accomplice.

But questions remain about why the American was driving around with a gun, the precise sequence of events and how he came to see the motorcyclists as a threat. Neither have US officials confirmed his name.

*Doctor Fakhar Zaman of Lahore's Mayo Hospital, who conducted a post-mortem on the two motorcyclists, told AFP that they were hit mostly from the back*.

*He said Mohammad Faheem received bullets to the brain, left of his back, left arm, chest and abdomen, apparently fired through the windscreen of a car, and that Faizan Haider was shot in the chest, back and kidney*.

Relatives of the third man who died told AFP they would support Davis' release as part of a swap with Pakistani scientist Aafia Siddiqui, jailed for 86 years by a US court for the attempted murder of US military officers in Afghanistan.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Keeping in mind that many foreigners including Chinese, Americans, French etc. have been killed or kidnapped in the past in Pakistan, Mr. Davis seems to be having a very solid case of self-defense and it's very likely that he will be acquitted even if tried in a Pakistani court.
> 
> All he has to prove is that he believed he was going to be robbed and he fired in self-defense.



Many foeigners including Americans, french, canadians, britishers have been killed or raped in india, that doesn't mean they go on killing frenzy citing self defence.

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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> *"I am restraining him (from being handed over to US authorities). Whether he has or does not have (diplomatic) immunity will be decided by the court," ruled Lahore high court chief justice Ijaz Ahmed Chaudhry*.



Now the first question that arises is how can Pakistan arrest someone who claims diplomatic immunity?

According to Vienna Convention, any person who claims diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested. Plain and Simple.


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Many foeigners including Americans, french, canadians, britishers have been killed or raped in india, that doesn't mean they go on killing frenzy citing self defence.



Yes it does. If a foreign diplomat or even an ordinary citizen feels that his life is under threat, he/she can shoot or kill in self-defense.

India is no exception.


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## logic

The HBS Guy said:


> Yes it does. If a foreign diplomat or even an ordinary citizen feels that his life is under threat, he/she can shoot or kill in self-defense.
> 
> India is no exception.



Who would you feel if AJMAL KAZAB claimed diplomatic immunity?

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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Now the first question that arises is how can Pakistan arrest someone who claims diplomatic immunity?
> 
> According to Vienna Convention, any person who claims diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested. Plain and Simple.



And the answer is he has no diplomatic immunity, he does not even have a diplomatic visa, *all you have to do is go back few pages and see the scans of his passport.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

HBS guy, i would suggest you read further before making utterly uninformed remarks or jumping to fact-devoid conclusions

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## The HBS Guy

logic said:


> Who would you feel if AJMAL KAZAB claimed diplomatic immunity?



It doesn't matter how I'd feel. Procedural requirements are not subject to emotions.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

logic said:


> Who would you feel if AJMAL KAZAB claimed diplomatic immunity?



that would no-longer grant him the ''NSA'' status

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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Yes it does. If a foreign diplomat or even an ordinary citizen feels that his life is under threat, he/she can shoot or kill in self-defense.
> 
> India is no exception.



i said killing frenzy. Shooting some one in the back is not self defence, *all you have to do is read the postmortem report few posts above you.*

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## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Now the first question that arises is how can Pakistan arrest someone who claims diplomatic immunity?
> 
> According to Vienna Convention, any person who claims diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested. Plain and Simple.



This is why;


1. A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.

*He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of*:

*(c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in the receiving State outside his official functions.*

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## Patriot

Glorious Resolve said:


> This is Rob Crilly


You probably didint understand my post.I meant American Eagle probably gets his news from Fox News (A rightwing US Channel which airs so much necon bullshit!)

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> And the answer is he has no diplomatic immunity, he does not even have a diplomatic visa, all you have to do is go back few pages and see the scans of his passport.



The State Department has already said that he has diplomatic immunity. 

Moreover, I repeat, even if he is tried in a Pakistani court, he has a very solid case of self-defense keeping in mind what's been happening to foreigners be them Chinese, Americans or French in Pakistan in the recent past.


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## logic

The HBS Guy said:


> The State Department has already said that he has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Moreover, I repeat, even if he is tried in a Pakistani court, he has a very solid case of self-defense keeping in mind what's been happening to foreigners be them Chinese, Americans or French in Pakistan in the recent past.



Spare us your mindless rant.


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## JonAsad

Patriot said:


> You probably didint understand my post.I meant American Eagle probably gets his news from Fox News (A rightwing US Channel which airs so much necon bullshit!)



Sorry about that..
You bolded the wrong lines mate 

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------




The HBS Guy said:


> The State Department has already said that he has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Moreover, I repeat, even if he is tried in a Pakistani court, he has a very solid case of self-defense keeping in mind what's been happening to foreigners be them Chinese, Americans or French in Pakistan in the recent past.



Whose state department's statements should matter in this case? Wise Guy

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> i said killing frenzy. Shooting some one in the back is not self defence, *all you have to do is read the postmortem report few posts above you.*



Look, even that can be proved. 

All he has has to say is this:

I was stopped by these two guys. I saw a pistol in the hand of one of them. They came by the side of my car and told me to pull over. Then they came in front of my car and forced me to stop. I was terrified and keeping in mind that many foreigners have been killed or kidnapped in Pakistan in the very recent past, I thought, to the best of my judgement, that my life was under threat and I shot them dead.

Judge: Why did you shoot so many bullets?

Davis: Like I said, I was terrified and I panicked under fear for my life. I regret the incident but my life was under threat and I couldn't have waited for them to shoot me so I shot them first.

Rock solid case of self-defence.


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## The HBS Guy

logic said:


> Spare us your mindless rant.



You can laugh only in emoticons. 

In real life, we all know who's having the last laugh.


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Whose state department's statements should matter in this case? Wise Guy



Now that the State Department has openly come in Davis' support, the matter of diplomatic immunity cannot be brushed under the rug.


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## VCheng

It is only a matter of days before all is clarified. A little patience would be very good for all posting here.

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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Look, even that can be proved.
> 
> All he has has to say is this:
> 
> I was stopped by these two guys. I saw a pistol in the hand of one of them. They came by the side of my car and told me to pull over. Then they came in front of my car and forced me to stop. I was terrified and keeping in mind that many foreigners have been killed or kidnapped in Pakistan in the very recent past, I thought, to the best of my judgement, that my life was under threat and I shot them dead.
> 
> Judge: Why did you shoot so many bullets?
> 
> Davis: Like I said, I was terrified and I panicked under fear for my life. I regret the incident but my life was under threat and I couldn't have waited for them to shoot me so I shot them first.
> 
> Rock solid case of self-defence.



Lol... how old are you? ok lets play
Judge: Explain why you are carrying an illegal fire arm with hollow point bullets in a foreign country?

Judge: How come your bullets ended up in their back?

Judge: what were you doing alone in such a crowded place? Where was your security protocol?

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## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Now that the State Department has openly come in Davis' support, the matter of diplomatic immunity cannot be brushed under the rug.



Yes, it cannot be brushed under the rug. But, it needs to be asecrtained whether he has the immunity or not. I refer you again to my previous post. Diplomatic immunity under The geneva convention of 1961 is not a clean slate. There are exceptions. The final decision will not be of the state dept, but of the court.


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Lol... how old are you? ok lets play
> Judge: Explain why you are carrying an illegal fire arm?



Davis: It's not illegal. I have it as a business requirement. My job here as a technical advisor to the State Department requires me to carry a firearm. 

<The State Department can give a certificate anyday.>

Do you seriously think it is such a big deal?


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Now that the State Department has openly come in Davis' support, the matter of diplomatic immunity cannot be brushed under the rug.



Video

This is the official US Dept of State Daily Press Brief..

Watch on from 46:00... He was darting questions like a salmon avoiding the grizzlies as it swims up stream.

He dodged why he had a weapon... He dodged why he needed a gun or if he had permission, Hell he even avoided confirming his NAME...


BTW it's upto the Foreign Office of PAKISTAN to decide his status, not the Dept of State...


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Now that the State Department has openly come in Davis' support, the matter of diplomatic immunity cannot be brushed under the rug.



Yes, but thats every one wants to know? Do he have diplomatic immunity?


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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> Yes, it cannot be brushed under the rug. But, it needs to be asecrtained whether he has the immunity or not. I refer you again to my previous post. Diplomatic immunity under The geneva convention of 1961 is not a clean slate. There are exceptions. The final decision will not be of the state dept, but of the court.



Sir, according to Vienna Convention, even by the time the veracity of the claim of diplomatic immunity is not confirmed, the claimant cannot be arrested. 

I repeat. The claimant cannot be arrested.

Now please tell me, how can Pakistan arrest him and send him to police remand?

You can keep him under custody but you cannot officially arrest him.

You simply can't.


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Davis: It's not illegal. I have it as a business requirement. My job here as a technical advisor to the State Department requires me to carry a firearm.
> 
> <The State Department can give a certificate anyday.>
> 
> Do you seriously think it is such a big deal?



Mr Wannabe Defendant, Judge has asked you some other questions aswell.
Answer them too.
I repeat

Judge: How come your bullets ended up in their back?

Judge: what were you doing alone in such a crowded place? Where was your security protocol?

and one more

Judge: how can you claim diplomatic immuity, when you dont even have a diplomatic visa?


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## American Eagle

American Eagle reads international press on line. He also when watching TV news watches CNN, if you ever read all of his posts on this very long thread you would have known this.

It is amazing how many overnight "barristers" show up on this site and Thread who are safely in UK, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, the US, Russia, and other nations outside of Pakistan.

Mr. Davis correctly stated immediately that he has Diplomatic Immunity and he does. US Ambassador in Pakistan, and US Dept. of State in Washington endorse this legal fact.

Meanwhile more innocent Pakistanis have been murdered by terrorist suicide bombers inside Pakistan, some muredered, 35, with 180 wounded, there in Lahore, the day before the failed Lahore robbery attempt against Mr. Davis. Some, particularly in Peshawar, shortly after the failed hold up attempt on Mr. Davis.

There are some folks writing on this site who do come across as very anti-democratic, anti PPP, and anti Zardari. Zardari is the type leader who was duly elected in an open democratic process which is the type voter free democratic election process being sought now in Tunisia, and which has existed for about 10 years now in Egypt.

I assume most of you here know the results of the most recent the last Pakistani democratic election of President Zardari. Right? Zardari and his PPP faced several opponentes and won. How about that for a start up of real democracy?

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## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Sir, according to Vienna Convention, even by the time the veracity of the claim of diplomatic immunity is not confirmed, the claimant cannot be arrested.
> 
> I repeat. The claimant cannot be arrested.



Can you quote the article?





The HBS Guy said:


> Now please tell me, how can Pakistan arrest him and send him to police remand?
> 
> You can keep him under custody but you cannot officially arrest him.
> 
> You simply can't.



First quote the article, then i'll tell you .


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yes, but thats every one wants to know? Do he have diplomatic immunity?



That your foreign department has to tell and untill your foreign department doesn't tell, you cannot arrest him.

Now please tell me, how did you arrest a person who had a diplomatic passport and who claims diplomatic immunity?

How can you?


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## sur

3 foreigners took out rifles to scare the crowd away... when crowd tried to stop the SUV in order to remove the body of hit-&-draging 3rd victom...

YouTube - Dunya TV-Khari Baat Lucman Kay Saath-31-01-2011-Pt2/4

SUV was carrying number-plate of a Suzuki-Mehran registered in Sahiwal...
Davis was photographing x-army installations on Waris Road...
SUV guys took Davis's camera away...

YouTube - Dunya TV-Khari Baat Lucman Kay Saath-31-01-2011-Pt3/4
YouTube - Dunya TV-Khari Baat Lucman Kay Saath-31-01-2011-Pt4/4

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## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Now please tell me, how did you arrest a person who had a diplomatic passport and who claims diplomatic immunity?
> 
> How can you?



Because he didn't have a diplomatic passport.

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> American Eagle reads international press on line. He also when watching TV news watches CNN, if you ever read all of his posts on this very long thread you would have known this.



Kind sir, why refer to yourself in the 3rd person?


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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> Can you quote the article?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First quote the article, then i'll tell you .



*http://books.google.co.in/books?id=oQhlua4VHrcC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=can+a+person+claiming+diplomatic+immunity+be+arrested?&source=bl&ots=Ffiv1ut991&sig=0XE7wfzWSt03vWHgBvCRI4nxlkw&hl=en&ei=tz1ITYyeEYLtrAePyozXBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=can%20a%20person%20claiming%20diplomatic%20immunity%20be%20arrested%3F&f=false*







Please read the last two paragraphs.

*Now tell me, how did you arrest him even when your foreign office has not confirmed his status yet?*


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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> Because he didn't have a diplomatic passport.



*He has a diplomatic passport but not a diplomatic visa.*


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## American Eagle

GUNNER said:


> Because he didn't have a diplomatic passport.



Ah, but Mr. Davis does and did have a Diplomatic Passport as attested to both by the US Ambassador to Pakistand and the US Dept. of State in Washington.

Your desire to try and condemn man who has Diplomatic Immunity stops with the legal fact, in International Law and by International Treaties, which take precedence over all local and national laws, that he is Immune and has Diplomatic Immunity.

That is all.

Meanwhile someone tell my why Pakistan has been banned from the International Air Show in India? Baffled at this development?


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## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> *Now tell me, how did you arrest him even when your foreign office has not confirmed his status yet?*


*

Extraordinary circumstances.*


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

American Eagle said:


> Meanwhile someone tell my why Pakistan has been banned from the International Air Show in India?



banned? LOL......................... seriuosly now u ve lost it. LOL
We were simply not invited. WTF is banned?


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal




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## GUNNER

American Eagle said:


> Your desire to try and condemn man who has Diplomatic Immunity stops with the legal fact, in International Law and by International Treaties, which take precedence over all local and national laws, that he is Immune and has Diplomatic Immunity.



There is no such desire sir. However, whether he does enjoy immunity or not is still to be ascertained though the embassy confirms he comes under the category of diplomats. I reiterate that diplomatic immunity clause of geneva convention provides exceptions.

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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> Extraordinary circumstances.



Now sir, you are stepping into the realm of the emotional.

There were no 'extraordinary circumstances'. 

The most you could have done was to detain him.

*YOU CANNOT ARREST HIM! PERIOD.*

*Now tell me, under which clauses of the Vienna Convention did you arrest a person claiming diplomatic immunity?*

It means Pakistan doesn't respect the obligations Vienna Convention.


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Now sir, you are stepping into the realm of the emotional.
> 
> There were no 'extraordinary circumstances'.
> 
> The most you could have done was to detain him.
> 
> *YOU CANNOT ARREST HIM! PERIOD.*
> 
> *Now tell me, under which clauses of the Vienna Convention did you arrest a person claiming diplomatic immunity?*



*Guess what!!!*

WE HAVE ARRESTED HIM

He will be tried... That is the *FACT*


----------



## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

The HBS Guy said:


> Now sir, you are stepping into the realm of the emotional.
> 
> There were no 'extraordinary circumstances'.
> 
> The most you could have done was to detain him.
> 
> *YOU CANNOT ARREST HIM! PERIOD.*
> 
> *Now tell me, under which clauses of the Vienna Convention did you arrest a person claiming diplomatic immunity?*



Whats up with font size?
BTW he is already in custody.


----------



## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> *Guess what!!!*
> 
> WE HAVE ARRESTED HIM
> 
> He will be tried... That is the *FACT*



*YOU HAVE VIOLATED THE VIENNA CONVENTION. *


----------



## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

The HBS Guy said:


> *YOU HAVE VIOLATED THE VIENNA CONVENTION. *



Whats up with all Caps?


----------



## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> *YOU HAVE VIOLATED THE VIENNA CONVENTION. *



Lol, okay Secretary General.. Thank you for your valued input, i will be sure to pass it on to the Foreign Office, since they have the FINAL say in the matter.

Good day now.

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## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> Lol, okay Secretary General.. Thank you for your valued input, i will be sure to pass it on to the Foreign Office, since they have the FINAL say in the matter.
> 
> Good day now.



Translates to:

I don't know man.


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## Shameel

The HBS Guy said:


> The State Department has already said that he has diplomatic immunity.



Who cares what the U.S. State Department says. The courts of law in Pakistan will determine this. The Lahore High Court made this clear today: the court will decide on the matter of diplomatic immunity. 

Also, a diplomatic passport alone does not grant one diplomatic immunity. You could be diplomat in Pakistan and visit Thailand for your honeymoon, you will not not be a diplomat in Thailand. The Receiving State must expressly accept you as a diplomat, the Sending State cannot unilaterally make one a diplomat.

In Pakistan, all diplomats are issued with diplomatic ID cards by the Foreign Ministry. The U.S. Embassy can end this controversy simply by showing Raymond Davis's diplomatic ID card.

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## VCheng

tareymareyikmarzi said:


>



The chess pieces have begun to move into place for checkmate, just as predicted. Patience, guys (and gals), PATIENCE!


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## 53fd

The HBS Guy said:


> *YOU HAVE VIOLATED THE VIENNA CONVENTION. *




I think you better take care of your sham "Tri-Valley University" and the Indian students about to be deported from the US: 

Tri-Valley University called 'sham,' accused of immigration fraud - San Jose Mercury News

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## The HBS Guy

Shameel said:


> Who cares what the U.S. State Department says. The courts of law in Pakistan will determine this. The Lahore High Court made this clear today: the court will decide on the matter of diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Also, a diplomatic passport alone does not grant one diplomatic immunity. You could be diplomat in Pakistan and visit Thailand for your honeymoon, you will not not be a diplomat in Thailand. The Receiving State must expressly accept you as a diplomat, the Sending State cannot unilaterally make one a diplomat.
> 
> In Pakistan, all diplomats are issued with diplomatic ID cards by the Foreign Ministry. The U.S. Embassy can end this controversy simply by showing Raymond Davis's diplomatic ID card.



And as long as the receiving state doesn't convey its disapproval, the claimant cannot be arrested.

Of course, if you don't want to honor an international obligation then that's a different matter.


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## Shameel

The HBS Guy said:


> *YOU CANNOT ARREST HIM! PERIOD.*



Pakistan on Planet Xenon cannot arrest him.

Pakistan on Planet Earth arrested him on January 27, 2011.

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## sur

sur said:


> 3 foreigners took out rifles to scare the crowd away... when crowd tried to stop the SUV in order to remove the body of hit-&-draging 3rd victom...
> 
> YouTube - Dunya TV-Khari Baat Lucman Kay Saath-31-01-2011-Pt2/4
> 
> SUV was carrying number-plate of a Suzuki-Mehran registered in Sahiwal...
> Davis was photographing x-army installations on Waris Road...
> SUV guys took Davis's camera away...
> 
> YouTube - Dunya TV-Khari Baat Lucman Kay Saath-31-01-2011-Pt3/4
> YouTube - Dunya TV-Khari Baat Lucman Kay Saath-31-01-2011-Pt4/4


Hamid Gul thinks he was under-cover on a recruitment mission,,, & may be was trying to recruit those victoms on bike... but they probably didn't get along well...

*2 Americans were killed in Karachi a while back,,, who had fight with their hired agents over payments & were killed by those patsies themselves.... this might be a similar case of discord b/w recruiter & patsies...*

YouTube - YaNabi.com - Islamabad Tonight 2011.01.31 - 2
SpyTalk - Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?

*Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?*
-
By Jeff Stein 
*A senior former U.S. diplomatic security agent suggested* Thursday that the American involved in a fatal shootout in Lahore, Pakistan, was the victim of *a spy meeting gone awry, not the target of a robbery or car-jacking attempt*.

"*It looks like an informant meet gone bad more than a car-jacking attempt,* said Fred Burton, a former deputy chief of the U.S. Diplomatic Security Services counter-terrorism division. 

Early reports were sketchy. Many said the American, identified in the Pakistani press variously as Raymond David, or just Davis, had shot two armed men on a motorcycle in self defense as they approached his car in a robbery attempt. As the American sped away, another Pakistani on a motorcycle was killed, according to the reports.

[SATURDAY UDATE: *Embassy officials have identified the man as *Raymond A. Davis. A senior U.S. official quoted by The Post said Davis was a "permanent diplomat" *who was assigned *to the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad as a security officer, *a role the official described as "a guy who is in the protection of people*."]

A Lahore police official earlier told The Post that another U.S. vehicle was traveling with the sedan and that the American then fled the scene in that car. As it sped away, it hit a motorcyclist, killing him.

Pakistan's GEO TV broadcast a photo of a broad-faced, 40-something man in a plaid shirt sitting in the back of a police car, who it identified as the American involved in the shootout.

According to Burton, who worked on several major terrorism cases in the 1980s and 1990s, the incident showed that David had outstanding situational awareness to recognize the attack unfolding and shoot the other men.

It shows a high degree of firearms discipline and training, Burton added. *Either the consulate employee's route was compromised by terrorist or criminal surveillance, or it's feasible he was set up in some sort of double-agent operation*, if this wasn't a criminal motive.

David was quickly apprehended and surrendered a Beretta pistol and three cell phones, according to local reports quoting police. He remains in custody.

*No immediate explanation was given for Davids presence in Lahores Qartaba Chowk area*, a mixed commercial and residential where two major roads meet. 

Even if U.S. officials are cleared of wrongdoing, The Post correspondents reported, the incident could be explosive in a nation where anti-American sentiment is strong. Some Pakistani news channels covering the episode raised the possibility that the Americans involved were employees of Blackwater, an American security contractor, now known as Xe Services, that is widely viewed in Pakistan as a sort of mercenary agency.

By Jeff Stein | January 27, 2011; 3:10 PM ET


----------



## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Now sir, you are stepping into the realm of the emotional.
> 
> There were no 'extraordinary circumstances'.
> 
> The most you could have done was to detain him.
> 
> *Now tell me, under which clauses of the Vienna Convention did you arrest a person claiming diplomatic immunity?*
> 
> It means Pakistan doesn't respect the obligations Vienna Convention.



Dear Sir,

I am far from being emotional in this case. Now, let's just say for your satisfaction that he has been detained. Now, will you please take a look at article 31 c of the convention.


http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf


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## Aslan

Why dont the indians mind their own bloody business. Now as they want to play devils advocate in every thing against Pakistan lets see can some one tell me what would you have done as an indian when a foreigner would have shoot 3 indians on the street. Or your bs rules are applicable to only Pakistan. 

And Mr. AE seriously you need to stick to the topic and cut back on the trolling. And stop crying.

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## JonAsad

American Eagle said:


> American Eagle reads international press on line. He also when watching TV news watches CNN, if you ever read all of his posts on this very long thread you would have known this.
> 
> It is amazing how many overnight "barristers" show up on this site and Thread who are safely in UK, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, the US, Russia, and other nations outside of Pakistan.
> 
> Mr. Davis correctly stated immediately that he has Diplomatic Immunity and he does. US Ambassador in Pakistan, and US Dept. of State in Washington endorse this legal fact.
> 
> Meanwhile more innocent Pakistanis have been murdered by terrorist suicide bombers inside Pakistan, some muredered, 35, with 180 wounded, there in Lahore, the day before the failed Lahore robbery attempt against Mr. Davis. Some, particularly in Peshawar, shortly after the failed hold up attempt on Mr. Davis.
> 
> There are some folks writing on this site who do come across as very anti-democratic, anti PPP, and anti Zardari. Zardari is the type leader who was duly elected in an open democratic process which is the type voter free democratic election process being sought now in Tunisia, and which has existed for about 10 years now in Egypt.
> 
> I assume most of you here know the results of the most recent the last Pakistani democratic election of President Zardari. Right? Zardari and his PPP faced several opponentes and won. How about that for a start up of real democracy?



Focus more on posting *ON TOPIC* SIR 
The management expects much from you.
How about talk on rear windscreen that never broke


----------



## Shameel

The HBS Guy said:


> And as long as the receiving state doesn't convey its disapproval, the claimant cannot be arrested.
> 
> Of course, if you don't want to honor an international obligation then that's a different matter.



You're assuming he's a diplomat. Pakistan's position is that he's not since:

(i) He did not arrive on a diplomatic visa, but an official business visa, which is different.

(ii) He was never declared a diplomat by the U.S. Embassy. 

(iii) He's not an officer of the U.S. Embassy, but a staff member of the U.S. Consulate.

(iv) He was never issued with a diplomatic identity card.

Also, you or me are not going to decide this issue. A court in Lahore, Pakistan will.

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## Patriot

Indians determinately deserve more Bophal Disasters.Indians you might be laughing today but remember what goes around comes around.

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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Translates to:
> 
> I don't know man.



Don't get ahead of yourself...



> Article 41
> Personal inviolability of consular officers
> 1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, *except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority*





> 3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the competent authorities. Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible.
> 
> When, in the circumstances mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay.





> Article 42
> Notification of arrest, detention or prosecution
> In the event of the arrest or detention, pending trial, of a member of the consular staff, or of criminal proceedings being instituted against him, the receiving State shall promptly notify the head of the consular post. Should the latter be himself the object of any such measure, the receiving State shall notify the sending State through the diplomatic channel


Source: http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

There you go, we have EVERY RIGHT under the convention to hold and try this guy...

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## The HBS Guy

GUNNER said:


> Dear Sir,
> 
> I am far from being emotional in this case. Now, let's just say for your satisfaction that he has been detained. Now, will you please take a look at article 31 c of the convention.
> 
> 
> http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf



Sire, 

Article 31c comes into play in case of financial graft or theft or fraud etc.

It clearly says 'Professional or Commercial'.

Let me explain this in simpler terms:

*A person enjoying or claiming diplomatic immunity if found indulged in financial offence, cannot be subjected to diplomatic immunity but a person killing someone can be subjected to diplomatic immunity.

In short, 

If a diplomat cheat someone of money, he can be arrested but if that same diplomat kills someone, he cannot be arrested.*

This might sound weird, but that's how it is.


----------



## GUNNER

The HBS Guy said:


> Sire,
> 
> Article 31c comes into play in case of financial graft or theft or fraud etc.



Sir, you ve read 31 a. Anyways, *Rescue Ranger * has given a better explanation.


----------



## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> Meanwhile someone tell my why Pakistan has been banned from the International Air Show in India? Baffled at this development?



Pakistan and India never invite each other to their defence shows.


----------



## The HBS Guy

--------------------------


----------



## American Eagle

Glorious Resolve said:


> Focus more on posting *ON TOPIC* SIR
> The management expects much from you.
> How about talk on rear windscreen that never broke



Thanks for showing your flag as in Saudi Arabaia, which nation I failed to name among the several from which outsiders are posting their personal opinions.

All thus hubub is over defiance of the fact of Diplomatic Immunity which Mr. Davis claimed, all he was required to do. Davis has been endorsed by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Dept. of State in Washington as having Diplomatic Immunity.

This satisfies that issue. Everyone's opinions to the contrary do not dictate set in stone International Law and Treaties that underwrite Diplomatic Immunity.

Try another topic, perhaps let's ask questions of the police record of the two robbers who stuck up a Pakistani gentleman shortly before they failed to rob Mr. Davis, in the same vicinity there in Lahore, same day?


----------



## The HBS Guy

RescueRanger said:


> Don't get ahead of yourself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf
> 
> There you go, we have EVERY RIGHT under the convention to hold and try this guy...



Sir, 

*You are talking about a CONSULAR OFFICER, I'm talking about a DIPLOMAT, something that Mr. Davis claims to be.

Please try to understand the difference.*


----------



## Shameel

The HBS Guy said:


> Sir, according to Vienna Convention, even by the time the veracity of the claim of diplomatic immunity is not confirmed, the claimant cannot be arrested.



So, going by your logic, if I visit India and shoot dead two Indians and the polices come to arrest me, all I have to do is to simply "claim" that I'm a diplomat and the police can't arrest me. I tell them, according to HBS, until such time that the veracity of my claim of diplomatic immunity is not confirmed, I, the claimant cannot be arrested. 

Think about what you're saying.

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## JonAsad

American Eagle said:


> Thanks for showing your flag as in Saudi Arabaia, which nation I failed to name among the several from which outsiders are posting their personal opinions.
> 
> All thus hubub is over defiance of the fact of Diplomatic Immunity which Mr. Davis claimed, all he was required to do. Davis has been endorsed by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Dept. of State in Washington as having Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> This satisfies that issue. Everyone's opinions to the contrary do not dictate set in stone International Law and Treaties that underwrite Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Try another topic, perhaps let's ask questions of the police record of the two robbers who stuck up a Pakistani gentleman shortly before they failed to rob Mr. Davis, in the same vicinity there in Lahore, same day?



Oh yeah-- I was wondering-- why you didn't mention me- Big Deal-
I am here to talk about Mr Davis-- since this thread talks about him.

One question:
Did you see the scans of his passport? What are you expert on topic opinions on that?
He is American that i can see- Next


----------



## American Eagle

Shameel said:


> Pakistan and India never invite each other to their defence shows.



Thanks as in modern times I was ignorant of this fact. So when Pakistan hosts a future international air show they, too, can exclude India. Tit for tat.

Yet in the field of business, commerce, Pakistan under both Mussharraf and now Zardari is working a plan with India under which gas and oil pipelines will come through Aghanistan in one instance, through Iran in another instance, but in both instances the pipelines will operate across Pakistan into India. That is the kind of cooperation that is healthy for both nations, Pakistan and India, in my opinion.


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## The HBS Guy

Shameel said:


> So if I visit India and shoot to death two Indians and the polices come to arrest me, all I have to do is to simply "claim" that I'm a diplomat and the police can't arrest me. I tell them, according to HBS, until such time that the veracity of my claim of diplomatic immunity is not confirmed, I, the claimant cannot be arrested.
> 
> Think about what you're saying.



*This is how it is meant to be:

1. You come to India.

2. You kill two Indians.

3. Police nabs you.

4. You claim diplomatic immunity.

5. Police checks your passport and visa.

6. Police contacts the Indian foreign office (which your Punjab police did not).

7. Police asks the Foreign Office to confirm your diplomatic immunity. (which your Punjab Police did not)

8. If Indian foreign Office says that you have diplomatic immunity, police let's you go. If Indian foreign Office says that you do not have diplomatic immunity, only then you are arrested. 

Your police did not perform steps 6 through 8.

This is standard practice. I'm not making anything up here.*


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## JonAsad

some body stop this guy (AE) from posting off topic.. Please


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## Perceptron

bilalhaider said:


> I think you better take care of your sham "Tri-Valley University" and the Indian students about to be deported from the US:
> 
> Tri-Valley University called 'sham,' accused of immigration fraud - San Jose Mercury News


With a country whose population growth is higher than its economic growth, you should be more concerned about your daily diwalis, ethnic cleansing and massacres of your minorities going on in the land of the pure.


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> *This is how it is meant to be:
> 
> 1. You come to India.
> 
> 2. You kill two Indians.
> 
> 3. Police nabs you.
> 
> 4. You claim diplomatic immunity.
> 
> 5. Police checks your passport and visa.
> 
> 6. Police contacts the Indian foreign office (which your Punjab police did not).
> 
> 7. Police asks the Foreign Office to confirm your diplomatic immunity. (which your Punjab Police did not)
> 
> 8. If Indian foreign Office says that you have diplomatic immunity, police let's you go. If Indian foreign Office says that you do not have diplomatic immunity, only then you are arrested.
> 
> Your police did not perform steps 6 through 8.
> 
> This is standard practice. I'm not making anything up here.*



Maybe they have done steps 6 through 8.
and concluded he does not have any diplomatic immunity.
thats why he was arrested.

Amrikion ki shaan mein aisi ghustakhi, hum ker saktay hein bhala


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## The HBS Guy

Patriot said:


> what goes around comes around.



That perfectly explains what all has been happening in Pakistan of late.


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## sur

sur said:


> Hamid Gul thinks he was under-cover on a recruitment mission,,, & may be was trying to recruit those victoms on bike... but they probably didn't get along well...
> 
> *2 Americans were killed in Karachi a while back,,, who had fight with their hired agents over payments & were killed by those patsies themselves.... this might be a similar case of discord b/w recruiter & patsies...*
> 
> YouTube - YaNabi.com - Islamabad Tonight 2011.01.31 - 2



SpyTalk - Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?

*
Washington Post
-
Lahore shootout: Spy rendezvous gone bad?*
-
By Jeff Stein 
*A senior former U.S. diplomatic security agent suggested* Thursday that the American involved in a fatal shootout in Lahore, Pakistan, was the victim of *a spy meeting gone awry, not the target of a robbery or car-jacking attempt*.

"*It looks like an informant meet gone bad more than a car-jacking attempt,*&#8221; said Fred Burton, a former deputy chief of the U.S. Diplomatic Security Service&#8217;s counter-terrorism division. 

Early reports were sketchy. Many said the American, identified in the Pakistani press variously as Raymond David, or just &#8220;Davis,&#8221; had shot two armed men on a motorcycle &#8220;in self defense&#8221; as they approached his car in a robbery attempt. As the American sped away, another Pakistani on a motorcycle was killed, according to the reports.

[SATURDAY UDATE: *Embassy officials have identified the man as *Raymond A. Davis. A senior U.S. official quoted by The Post said Davis was a "permanent diplomat" *who was assigned *to the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad as a security officer, *a role the official described as "a guy who is in the protection of people*."]

A Lahore police official earlier told The Post that &#8220;another U.S. vehicle was traveling with the sedan and that the American then fled the scene in that car. As it sped away, it hit a motorcyclist, killing him.&#8221;

Pakistan's GEO TV broadcast a photo of a broad-faced, 40-something man in a plaid shirt sitting in the back of a police car, who it identified as the American involved in the shootout.

According to Burton, who worked on several major terrorism cases in the 1980s and 1990s, the incident showed that David &#8220;had outstanding situational awareness to recognize the attack unfolding and shoot the other men.&#8221;

&#8220;It shows a high degree of firearms discipline and training,&#8221; Burton added. &#8220;*Either the consulate employee's route was compromised by terrorist or criminal surveillance, or it's feasible he was set up in some sort of double-agent operation*, if this wasn't a criminal motive.&#8221;

David was quickly apprehended and surrendered a Beretta pistol and three cell phones, according to local reports quoting police. He remains in custody.

*No immediate explanation was given for David&#8217;s presence in Lahore&#8217;s Qartaba Chowk area*, a mixed commercial and residential where two major roads meet. 

&#8220;Even if U.S. officials are cleared of wrongdoing,&#8221; The Post correspondents reported, &#8220;the incident could be explosive in a nation where anti-American sentiment is strong. Some Pakistani news channels covering the episode raised the possibility that the Americans involved were employees of Blackwater, an American security contractor, now known as Xe Services, that is widely viewed in Pakistan as a sort of mercenary agency.&#8221;

By Jeff Stein | January 27, 2011; 3:10 PM ET

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Maybe they have done steps 6 through 8.
> and concluded he does not have any diplomatic immunity.
> thats why he was arrested.
> 
> Amrikion ki shaan mein aisi ghustakhi, hum ker saktay hein bhala



Bhai mere, tu mazak ke mood mein hai. Ab main kya bolun?


----------



## JonAsad

Perceptron said:


> With a country whose population growth is higher than its economic growth, you should be more concerned about your daily diwalis, ethnic cleansing and massacres of your minorities going on in the land of the pure.



i think you should take your off topic BS and shove it up your you know what and get the hell out of this thread before you are banned


----------



## metro

im with Pakistanis on this issue.
this guy was drunk and ran his car over a man out of his American arrogance.

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## Aslan

Perceptron said:


> With a country whose population growth is higher than its economic growth, you should be more concerned about your daily diwalis, ethnic cleansing and massacres of your minorities going on in the land of the pure.



Who invited you here, are you an american citizen dont look like it, are you a Pakistani dont think so. My bad forgot you are simply a bloody troll, if you dont have any thing better to add then why dont you STFU. And by the way report button is to your left.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Bhai mere, tu mazak ke mood mein hai. Ab main kya bolun?



Ap yeh kero k Judge k sawalon k jawab hi dey do


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## American Eagle

Glorious Resolve said:


> Oh yeah-- I was wondering-- why you didn't mention me- Big Deal-
> I am here to talk about Mr Davis-- since this thread talks about him.
> 
> One question:
> Did you see the scans of his passport? What are you expert on topic opinions on that?
> He is American that i can see- Next



I defer to the statements of the US Ambassador to Pakistan and to the US Department of State in Washington. They know the facts and state that Raymond Davis has a Diplomatic Passport with valid Pakistani Visa through I think June 2012...and the Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity.

I rest on my nation's official position.

God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad!


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Sir,
> 
> *You are talking about a CONSULAR OFFICER, I'm talking about a DIPLOMAT, something that Mr. Davis claims to be.
> 
> Please try to understand the difference.*



Try to research the subject you are talking about:

DIPLOMATIC Ranks:

Ambassador (High Commissioner in Commonwealth missions); Ambassador at large
Minister
Minister-Counselor
Counselor
First Secretary
Second Secretary
Third Secretary
Attaché
Assistant Attaché

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Ap yeh kero k Judge k sawalon k jawab hi dey do



Wo toh Davis Saab denge. Maine thode hee kuch kiya hai? 

Anyways, Let me come back to the first point I made. 

Guilty or not, Mr. Davis is walking out of Pakistan. 

I can give you that on a stamp paper.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Wo toh Davis Saab denge. Maine thode hee kuch kiya hai?
> 
> Anyways, Let me come back to the first point I made.
> 
> Guilty or not, Mr. Davis is walking out of Pakistan.
> 
> I can give you that on a stamp paper.



Guilty or not Guilty-- thats every one wants to know- and that will matter alot in the future of Pak US diplomatic relations.

Regardless he will walk away from it, we already know that.


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## RescueRanger

The HBS Guy said:


> Wo toh Davis Saab denge. Maine thode hee kuch kiya hai?
> 
> Anyways, Let me come back to the first point I made.
> 
> Guilty or not, Mr. Davis is walking out of Pakistan.
> 
> I can give you that on a stamp paper.



Refer back to my post where i have clarified the ranks of diplomats.. Counselor is a Diplomatic rank, (google is your best friend). Also Yes counselors can be arrested for grave crimes, they can be tried under the local law under a competent local authority:

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

Articles 42 and 41 of the Convention assure Pakistan this right...

I will list those ranks for your benefit again:






So you see even if he was a DIPLOMAT, under the convention the host nation can ARREST HIM and present him before a local judge.

This is not a simple matter of Persona Non Grata... This is far more complicated.

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## Shameel

*Response to The HBS Guy:*



> 1. You come to India.



Which Raymond did.



> 2. You kill two Indians.



Which Raymond did.



> 3. Police nabs you.



Which the Punjab Police did.



> 4. You claim diplomatic immunity.



Which Raymond did.



> 5. Police checks your passport and visa.



Which the police did, but which Raymond could not produce. Raymond did not produce diplomatic ID. He only made an oral claim. 



> 6. Police contacts the Indian foreign office (which your Punjab police did not).



Does a local police station in Andheri Mumbai have a direct hotline to the Indian Foreign Office in South Block, New Delhi? And does the Indian Foreign Office have a system to respond within a few hours and confirm the identity of an individual? Do you know how these things work? Let me tell you. Police and "law and order" is a provincial subject in Pakistan. It falls under the control of the Provincial Home Department. Foreign Affairs is a federal subject falling under the Federation. A Station House Officer (SHO) of a local police station cannot contact the Foreign Office directly. He must must go up the chain of command. The matter ends up on the desk of the Provincial Inspector General of Police (IGP). The IGP cannot contact the Federation directly. He must go through the Provincial Home Department. Only the Provincial Home Department authorizes contact with the Foreign Office. Do you know how long this takes? More than a couple of days. I'm not even factoring in the time it will take for the police to get a legal opinion from its legal department. 

All this time, what is the police supposed to do? Release a man who has shot dead two people on a street in front of dozens of witnesses? 

Get real. 



> 7. Police asks the Foreign Office to confirm your diplomatic immunity. (which your Punjab Police did not)



Wrong. Refer to answer to Question 6. 



> 8. If Indian foreign Office says that you have diplomatic immunity, police let's you go. If Indian foreign Office says that you do not have diplomatic immunity, only then you are arrested.
> Your police did not perform steps 6 through 8.



Wrong. Refer to answer to Question 6. Furthermore, even if your Foreign Office confirms that he is a diplomat, the police cannot release him if the matter is sub judice before an Indian court of law. You're overlooking the fact that Raymond was produced before a magistrate within 24 hours of his arrest and was remanded into police custody by the magistrate (in other words, he's in judicial custody, not in police detention). And if the Mumbai High Court has expressly ordered the police not to release him (which the Lahore High Court did today), then the police does not have power to release him. 



> This is standard practice. I'm not making anything up here.



You clearly have no idea about standard practices in Pakistan and I doubt if Indian practices would be much different in similar circumstances, especially in view of the fact that red tape in India is more extensive than in Pakistan.


----------



## Thomas

RescueRanger said:


> Refer back to my post where i have clarified the ranks of diplomats.. Counselor is a Diplomatic rank, (google is your best friend). Also Yes counselors can be arrested for grave crimes, they can be tried under the local law under a competent local authority:
> 
> http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf
> 
> Articles 42 and 41 of the Convention assure Pakistan this right...
> 
> I will list those ranks for your benefit again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you see even if he was a DIPLOMAT, under the convention the host nation can ARREST HIM and present him before a local judge.
> 
> This is not a simple matter of Persona Non Grata... This is far more complicated.




Davis is a member of the technical staff. The technical staff have total immunity from criminal prosecution. Unless it is waived by the technical staff members country. There are several precedents to this from past incidents invloving diplomats and supporting staff from around the world.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/22243.pdf


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## American Eagle

> RescueRanger;1455367]Refer back to my post where i have clarified the ranks of diplomats.. Counselor is a Diplomatic rank, (google is your best friend). Also Yes counselors can be arrested for grave crimes, they can be tried under the local law under a competent local authority:



No, you are mistaken.

If an American says they have Diplomatic Immunity and the US Ambassador to said country and the US Dept. of State of said country endorse the fact that, in this case Mr. Davis, has Diplomatic Immunity then the host country cannot arrest nor prosecure him. 

The Host County can ask that the person with Diplomtic Immunity be expelled or removed from their country and the US is bound to do that with haste.

EXAMPLE: My good late friend, UK Air Vice Marshal P. G. K. (Pete) Williamson when he was an RAF Group Captain was British Air Advisor to Pakistan while I was a junior USAF officer (First Lieutenant) with the US Embassy. But Pete and I were good friends socially.

Pete at a Government of Pakistan reception in the Peshawar area (then the location of the Pakistani Air Force HQ) told then Foreign Minister Bhutto that his, Bhutto's, constant badgering about Kashmir as between Pakistan and India was hindering basic needs of all the people of both nations...schools, education, housing, health, sanitation, you name a basic need category.

FM Bhutto "went into orbit" cursed at Pete and ordered him declared Personna Non Grata and expelled from Pakistan. This was done in due course and I was among friends to see Pete, his wife, and children sail shortly thereafter from Karachi.


----------



## Shameel

American Eagle said:


> No, you are mistaken.
> 
> If an American says they have Diplomatic Immunity and the US Ambassador to said country and the US Dept. of State of said country endorse the fact that, in this case Mr. Davis, has Diplomatic Immunity then the host country cannot arrest nor prosecure him.
> 
> The Host County can ask that the person with Diplomtic Immunity be expelled or removed from their country and the US is bound to do that with haste.
> 
> EXAMPLE: My good late friend, UK Air Vice Marshal P. G. K. (Pete) Williamson when he was an RAF Group Captain was British Air Advisor to Pakistan while I was a junior USAF officer (First Lieutenant) with the US Embassy. But Pete and I were good friends socially.
> 
> Pete at a Government of Pakistan reception in the Peshawar area (then the location of the Pakistani Air Force HQ) told then Foreign Minister Bhutto that his, Bhutto's, constant badgering about Kashmir as between Pakistan and India was hindering basic needs of all the people of both nations...schools, education, housing, health, sanitation, you name a basic need category.
> 
> FM Bhutto "went into orbit" cursed at Pete and ordered him declared Personna Non Grata and expelled from Pakistan. This was done in due course and I was among friends to see Pete, his wife, and children sail shortly thereafter from Karachi.



Wow. You must be senior. In Pakistan, they teach us to respect elders. I'll disagree with you more respectfully next time, Sir.


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## RescueRanger

Thomas said:


> Davis is a member of the technical staff. The technical staff have total immunity from criminal prosecution. Unless it is waived by the technical staff members country. There are several precedents to this from past incidents invloving diplomats and supporting staff from around the world.
> 
> http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/22243.pdf



Your reference does not even mention Article 41 and 42, articles to which a USA is a signatory :
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

Secondly



> However, the immunity concept would never have endured if its application left the receiving state helpless to react to the commission of serious crimes in its territory or without recourse when foreign diplomats abuse the civil law rights of its citizens.
> 
> In order to understand that some control must be retained, one need only recall the sense of outrage expressed by U.S. citizens whenever diplomatic immunity thwarts prosecution of a serious crime by a diplomat assigned to the United States.
> 
> For this reason, the principle developed that all persons enjoying privileges and immunities also have the obligation and duty to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving state. This principle is expressly stated in both the VCDR and the VCCR.
> 
> In addition, the receiving state has the right to declare any person entitled to diplomatic privileges and immunities to be persona non grata (PNG) at any time and without stating a reason. When declared PNG, a person has a certain period of time to depart the country before being divested of all privileges and immunities. Failing such departure, the person faces any pending legal actions (civil or criminal) with only the defences available to an ordinary citizen.



And i refer you back to:



> Article 41
> Personal inviolability of consular of icers
> 1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.
> 
> 3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the competent authorities.
> 
> Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. When, in the circumstances mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay.



The above is a law that all nations has signed to and abide by, im sorry but USA's "tech staff" are not above and beyond that of any other nation that signed this document. 

To even suggest that is preposterous.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen



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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

( i found this comment in Express news)
By:
Insider
11 hours ago
Reply
Inside Story &#8211; Breaking News
USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.


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## logic

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> ( i found this comment in Express news)
> By:
> Insider
> 11 hours ago
> Reply
> Inside Story  Breaking News
> USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.



This will prove to be the last nail in US PAK relations.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

logic said:


> This will prove to be the last nail in US PAK relations.



Maybe some unknown person just wanted to add more massala to the situation or maybe it was meant to be a veiled fore warning?


----------



## JonAsad




----------



## logic

*US-Pakistan relations strained as 'CIA agent' held by court over shootings​*
US-Pakistan relations strained as 'CIA agent' held by court over shootings | World news | The Guardian

*Lahore Shooting: Pakistan Refuses to Release U.S. Official Accused in Shooting​*
Lahore Shooting: Pakistan Refuses to Release Raymond Davis - ABC News

*Davis to Face the Music as he violated Pakistani Laws, Kaira tells NA​*
ONLINE - International News Network

*Senate Demands Free and Fair Trial of Raymond Davis *​
ONLINE - International News Network


----------



## JonAsad

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> ( i found this comment in Express news)
> By:
> Insider
> 11 hours ago
> Reply
> Inside Story  Breaking News
> USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.



Impossible.....

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## RescueRanger

You know, i was just wondering... It would have been easier for the US to just say this guy was with the MSG detail at the consulate, they are permitted to carry weapons as part of their duty and they could have just said that he had stored the gun in the vehicle as a precautionary measure. 

They could even have made up a BS story about the car's dodgy number plate being part of their protocol of blending in. However by going round the houses and being silent on some issues the US has only made a delicate situation far worse.

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## logic

While Pakistan is yet to clear the air on the status of Raymond Davis, *the U.S. continues to maintain silence over his identity*. At the daily briefing in Washington, Assistant Secretary of State Philip Crowley *refused to disclose the name of the American national* and dodged questions on *whether embassy staff can carry weapons*. Neither did he explain why the man was travelling on an *official visa and not a diplomatic visa* as was evident from the photocopies of his passport and visa that have been shown in the Pakistani media. 

The Hindu : News / International : Lahore court order on U.S. staffer


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## Nothing

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> ( i found this comment in Express news)
> By:
> Insider
> 11 hours ago
> Reply
> Inside Story  Breaking News
> USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.



not possible ... USA can't do any thing...
So much media focus on issue .. on one man.... court case .. he can't go out of Pakistan...

and if USA is able to get him out of Pakistan .. via diplomatic pressure GOP should resign and leave the country immediately to save their life

if USA do some kind of commando mission (which is not possible even in dreams) .. Military bosses should go home for ever ...

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## Donatello

I hope Chief Justice takes this into his own hands.

This guy is clearly a murderer.

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## logic

*Pakistans Lego-diplomatic row​*
While it goes without saying that *Davis should face the music for his crime, irrespective of immunity or not he enjoys under diplomatic protocol,* what has surprised many is the fact that what was *he doing at a public place and that too without the knowledge of the government and security authorities*. Secondly, the Pakistan Foreign Offices stance that it is trying to figure out what &#8232;is the actual status of Davis, and whether he enjoyed immunity or not is laughable. It points at a deep flaw in inter-state relations and/or the confusion at work

Pakistans Lego-diplomatic row


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## logic

*Double Standard or Might is Right!!! Handing over of US killer Davis likely Amir Nafees​*
The alleged former military men and US national who is stated as the part of US diplomat team Raymond Davis likely to be handed over to the American authorities and in this regard a 'silent assurance' has been given, learnt reliably.

The Frontier Post


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## fida jan

The HBS Guy said:


> Yes it does. If a foreign diplomat or even an ordinary citizen feels that his life is under threat, he/she can shoot or kill in self-defense.
> 
> India is no exception.



if he feels, what do u mean, even if the guy is a maniac, if he feels???

pakistan if feels in danger can nuke india, and world would justify this act???


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## JonAsad

&#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1578;&#1581;&#1585;&#1610;&#1705; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1740; &#1585;&#1740;&#1604;&#1740; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1588;&#1585;&#1705;&#1578; &#1705;&#1585;&#1705;&#1746; &#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605;&#1740;&#1575;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740;&#1722;

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> ( i found this comment in Express news)
> By:
> Insider
> 11 hours ago
> Reply
> Inside Story &#8211; Breaking News
> USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.



not gonna happen unless US is really desperate to get him back.......its not a movie, doing that kind of mission in a foriegn land is not easy

Edit : its easy when Govt, Military and Intelligence Agencies are on ur side


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## AstanoshKhan

Glorious Resolve said:


> &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1575;&#1606; &#1578;&#1581;&#1585;&#1610;&#1705; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1740; &#1585;&#1740;&#1604;&#1740; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1588;&#1585;&#1705;&#1578; &#1705;&#1585;&#1705;&#1746; &#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605;&#1740;&#1575;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740;&#1722;



*Go Lahorians Go... I'm off to Lahore by Daewoo tomorrow INSHALLAH

Spread this message to all over Pakistan*

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

AstanoshKhan said:


> *Go Lahorians Go... I'm off to Lahore by Daewoo tomorrow INSHALLAH*


*

Danday parain gai... but do take pictures.*


----------



## Thomas

RescueRanger said:


> Your reference does not even mention Article 41 and 42, articles to which a USA is a signatory :
> http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf
> 
> Secondly
> 
> 
> 
> And i refer you back to:
> 
> 
> 
> The above is a law that all nations has signed to and abide by, im sorry but USA's "tech staff" are not above and beyond that of any other nation that signed this document.
> 
> To even suggest that is preposterous.



since when is defending yourself from robbers commiting a grave crime? That is the crux of the main issue. If he was defending himself then there is no grave crime is there. And even if he was guilty of carrying an illegal gun that in itself does not constitiute a grave crime. And I think it would surprise many what the Government of Pakistan allows behind the scenes in regards to trainers, security, and intelligence personel from other countries. But publicly be vague or silent becuase of public sensetivity (such as foriegners carrying guns). 

It wasn't so long ago many here railed agianst security contractors secretly invading thier country. Only to find out that many contractors are in Pakistan with tacit Government approval. Then there were the drone strikes. We found out that the strikes are happening with the help of the ISI. Then people were shocked to hear of U.S. Special Forces trainers actively working with the Pakistan Army and Frontier Corps in the tribal areas. Like it or not there are U.S. soldiers, intelligence officers, and contractors working closely with the Pakistan Government who are armed at times.


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## r3alist

> since when is defending yourself from robbers commiting a grave crime?



depends on the law of the land.

in most places killing people is something quite bad, just fyi.


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## ephone

logic said:


> Government of Pakistan
> Has sold the Pakistani People
> US can kill how ever where ever when ever they want.
> 
> Zaradri and Nawaz must be calculating the amount of $$$'s they will charge for the entertainment of this Embassy staff.



What will be the case if those two are militants who intended to abduct that consulate official? 

If that is the case, the consulate official has done such a good job by killing them.


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## Vassnti

So far we have one person killed in a car accident which though sad is hardly a rare event in Lahore.



> Pakistan ranked very high in the world for life threatening traffic fatalities where over 5,000 deaths per year were noted in 2004.
> 
> According to WHO data, China, USA and Brazil respectively ranked top in mortality caused by road crashes. Additionally, the number of injuries in Pakistan is 10 times greater than the above figures



The other is two armed men following a US official were killed by that official in claimed self defence, till the police investigate no one should be jumping to conclusions. I do wonder why the men involved were armed if they were just inocent Pakistani's.

Silly american shouldnt have said it was self defence he should have said he heard the men on the motorcycle comit blasphemy then the same people calling for his lynching would be carring him arround Lahore on their shoulders calling him a hero.


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## zs4

[Pakistani]-evilX;1455673 said:


> not gonna happen unless US is really desperate to get him back.......its not a movie, doing that kind of mission in a foriegn land is not easy
> 
> Edit : its easy when Govt, Military and Intelligence Agencies are on ur side



Govt, Military, and Intelligence Agencies might be on their side, you never know. But one thing is for sure. The people are not on their side. If Davis is released unconditionally, this will be the beginning of the end of the elites in Pakistan.


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## zs4

American Eagle said:


> God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad!



I love both countries and I think both are ready for a change. Maybe the governments of both are watching the revolution fever and decide to make it better for the common man. One can always hope.


----------



## ephone

zs4 said:


> I love both countries and I think both are ready for a change. Maybe the governments of both are watching the revolution fever and decide to make it better for the common man. One can always hope.



There will not be one for US for sure. Strikes, maybe. US is very much stable and much more religious tolerant compared to most countries in the world.

Some priest in Florida burnt Quran and nobody will do anything about it. If anyone dare to threat his life or abduct him like what happen in Pakistan, he will be punished seriously. 

I think the priest action is idiotic. However, none can still do nothing to him since he is protected by the US constitution.


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## ephone

BTW, if what said is true:
(1) the two dead men were armed 
(2) they kept following the consulate official

plus the case the consulate official is american

he may already think many times whether he would like to be abducted and then beheaded, or he would fight for his life.


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## logic

ephone said:


> BTW, if what said is true:



A false self supposition.



> (1) the two dead men are armed



Refer to tons of earlier posts as to avoid confusion



> (2) they kept following the consulate official



*DEAD PEOPLE DO NOT FOLLOW ANYONE apart from MOVIES*



> plus the case the consulate official is american
> 
> he may already think many times whether he would like to be abducted and then beheaded, or he would fight for his life.




what a joke


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## ephone

A false self supposition???

Really? Maybe you should ask any Americans in Pakistan for this situation, what will be his supposition? I bet US consulate definitely has a class for this type of situation they may be in.

"DEAD PEOPLE DO NOT FOLLOW ANYONE"
It is true but if they indeed followed him and also were armed, that will be totally different case. What is your supposition that two armed Pakistani followed a US consulate official???

BTW, why is it a joke? I bet a lot of US consulate officials think they put their lives on the line when they worked either in Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan since a lot of people there hate them and want them dead. There are a lot of hostility there. 

In addition, there are quite a few cases that abducted Americans/Europeans got beheaded or killed. Why should not he be worried? If I were him, I would have already worried how many minutes I have left to live.


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## piyarapakistani

1)that ramond davis american agent has even fake name confirmed by usa that its not its real name.
2)so his any type of identity whiether diplomatic or other is fake.
3)fake passport on which he came to pakistan.
4)carrying illegal weapon.
5)doing no diplomatic job in mazang chungi.
6)fake no. plate and rent a car he was using.
7)he shot one person from behind and eye witnesses tells that the other person was running away so what king of self defence is this that u kill a running away robber or what ever he was?
8)he ran away frm sence.
9)he dont even stop even when officials try to stop him.
10)he wireless in his embassy and other car came took wrong one way side and crushed another innocent pakistan and gone.
11) so the other car was also doing it in self defence.
12)so people are blaming pakistani government but i think pakistan army corrupt general kiyani the traitor and isi are involved in it and its all there fault.because in musharaf time this all started and americans were allowed to enter pakistan and to do covert operations under diplomatic cover.and this govermnet makes it more easy for them now pakistani embassy in america give them visas without security check.which was demanded by hillary clinton.

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## logic

*THE SUBJECT IS IN JUDICIAL CUSTODY.​**
HE HAS BEEN PUT ON A NO FLY LIST AKA ECL as per Lahore High Court orders.​*
*The PRESIDENT* *the FOREIGN OFFICE the PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT* in fact the *whole gang of goons and thugs* have said that the courts will decide the matter.

*A TOM DICK AND HARRY CAN HAVE HIS OPINION BUT NOT HIS OWN FACTS.*

FACTS will be pondered upon by the judicial investigation.

Until then if you support the subject you can go and protest out side the court at his next hearing.


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## logic

piyarapakistani said:


> 12)so people are blaming pakistani government but i think pakistan army corrupt general kiyani the traitor and isi are involved in it and its all there fault.because in musharaf time this all started and americans were allowed to enter pakistan and to do covert operations under diplomatic cover.and this govermnet makes it more easy for them now pakistani embassy in america give them visas without security check.which was demanded by hillary clinton.



12) is highly speculative and provocative. i do not agree with it


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## piyarapakistani

u people dont even know how these f..king black water cia agents dangerously drive there suvs in lahore especially jail road.


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## piyarapakistani

logic said:


> 12) is highly speculative and provocative. i do not agree with it


hillary clinton in its press statment said that we got visa issues with pakistan.these were the visa issues american wants there opeartives to be given visa directly frm pakistani embassy usa without security check.and the result is on the streets of lahore.
this is not the first time many times these american agents were stopped by police for carrying arms the dont even came out frm there cars and one phone call they were gone its all on media.
pakistani army and intelligence agencys sold there coutry to america.shame shame


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## piyarapakistani

logic said:


> 12) is highly speculative and provocative. i do not agree with it





logic said:


> *THE SUBJECT IS IN JUDICIAL CUSTODY.​**
> HE HAS BEEN PUT ON A NO FLY LIST AKA ECL as per Lahore High Court orders.​*
> *The PRESIDENT* *the FOREIGN OFFICE the PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT* in fact the *whole gang of goons and thugs* have said that the courts will decide the matter.
> 
> *A TOM DICK AND HARRY CAN HAVE HIS OPINION BUT NOT HIS OWN FACTS.*
> 
> FACTS will be pondered upon by the judicial investigation.
> 
> Until then if you support the subject you can go and protest out side the court at his next hearing.


when tom dick and harry can broke constitution of pakistan talking abt the so called pakistani army everyone has right to bring facts in front of evryone.


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## American Eagle

The focus and single subject is that Raymond Davis claimed Diplomatic Immunity, which the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Department of State in Washington have verifyed he has.

Beyond that what many on this site seem to have trouble dealing with is that the same two robbers held up a Pakistani man in same immediate area shortly before they failed to successfully stick up Mr. Davis. The just robbed Pakistani man had filed a police report for their arrest already that afternoon.

And before that is the research required topic of previous other criminal charges and possible convictions against the same two prior to two criminal acts that same single day in Lahore by them.

But first and foremost is Diplomatic Immunity for Mr. Davis, at which point he should be moved out of Pakistan.

Understanding International Law and various associated Treaties regarding Diplomatic Immunity overlooks the simple basics: US claims diplomatic immunity for Mr. Davis, as does Mr.Davis likewise claim it for himself.

The Government of Pakistan has to honor Diplomatic Immunity, no subordination of it to other bodies inside Pakistan. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity as the US verifies he has such. That is the definition in this case.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

in cases such as the one davis was involved in, immunity can be waived if the crime is severe enough

in this case, driving in fake plates/registration car; having no permit to own or operate firearm --alone are enough to get him in trouble


in fact, it is you Americans who should be asking more questions than we are....


lastly, thus far nobody is able to prove if he was a diplomat; it appears he was just a civilian contractor......


and just because he has US Passport doesnt make him NOT answerable to our courts.....


so either deal with this reality and respect our laws, otherwise bury your face in the pillow and remain in that position for some time

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## American Eagle

With due respect to you as a fellow human being on the other side of our tired old globe, Diplomatic Immunity is first, paramount, and foremost when raised as the position of the United States Government who have the facts on their diplomat to know up from down.

As to separately then investigating the same and a prior criminal history of the two robbers that is an issue separately for the Pakistani officals to then investigate. Why were they living a life of crime and robberies, plural word, robberies, one of which was same day against a Pakistani, just before they failed to execute another robbery against Mr. Davis.

I am sure you are a good man but you are repeating wild allegations without facing the core facts of first Diplomatic Immunity, then secondarily the history of the two crooks.

Maybe you want to help better the future of Pakistan, then maybe not. I would hope you care about your good nation and if you do then you can start to understand international law and treaties, separated from local crimes against both Pakistanis and this one American who defend himself.

Back and forth between you, me, and others on PDF will never fix anything. Diplomatic Immunity is the starting point. All else comes after that.

But, to be polite, I understand you disagree but then much of the world disagrees with you right now. But, we are not out to insult you nor Pakistan, you should have the same view, not be out to insulty me, the US or Mr. Davis who is lucky to have survived an armed robbery attempt on his person.

God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

American Eagle said:


> With due respect to you as a fellow human being on the other side of our tired old globe, Diplomatic Immunity is first, paramount, and foremost when raised as the position of the United States Government who have the facts on their diplomat to know up from down.



I'm with you on that. But 3 people are dead. In fact, where are the occupants of the Land Cruiser which fled from the crime scene?

When laws are broken, the justice system must take its due course. The Americans assured us full cooperation in this matter.





> As to separately then investigating the same and a prior criminal history of the two robbers that is an issue separately for the Pakistani officals to then investigate.



it seems to be one word against anothers'

some say he was criminal; some say he was licensed to carry the arm for protection and was coming back from court

we should continue to follow up and get the bottom line truth



> Why were they living a life of crime and robberies, plural word, robberies, one of which was same day against a Pakistani, just before they failed to execute another robbery against Mr. Davis.



where u got this information, sir




> I am sure you are a good man but you are repeating wild allegations without facing the core facts of first Diplomatic Immunity, then secondarily the history of the two crooks.



i was not at the scene (some people on this forum were, or claim they were)....i am basing my analysis on what i've read.

diplomatic immunity can always be waived, depending on the crime. If it were a hit & run case, he'd already be out of the country. But it involved more than just hit & run. This case is more severe.




> Maybe you want to help better the future of Pakistan, then maybe not. I would hope you care about your good nation and if you do then you can start to understand international law and treaties, separated from local crimes against both Pakistanis and this one American who defend himself.



every man who has a modicum of self-respect would care and want better future for their motherland.....

i will leave it to the courts to come out with a decision. I can guarantee you if Pakistanis in New York or DC did what Davis did in Lahore --they'd already be labelled ''Islamist terrorists'' or something to that effect

am I mistaken?



> Back and forth between you, me, and others on PDF will never fix anything. Diplomtic Immunity is the starting point. All else comes after that.



so......lets speculate. Would the Americans pursue the charges on its own soil? Or would they allow him to be a free man, like his colleagues who killed a 20 year old bystander and drove away after it?




> But, to be polite, I understand you disagree but then much of the world disagrees with you right now.



No problem at all, so what.

Let them.




> But, we are not out to insult you nor Pakistan, and you should have the same view, not be out to insulty me, the US or Mr. Davis who is lucky to have survived an armed robbery attempt on his person.



I hate to break it to you, but robberies is a phenomenon in different parts of the country.......look at areas of Karachi.


hell --its a worldwide phenomenon. Look at parts of Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, US or Columbia. Exact same problems, even similar tactics are used.

If news reports are to be believed, the man was not a robber. So we clearly differ on even this detail. 


Again, i'll let the courts decide what to do with him. I am nobody, I have no locus standi on this matter. Those are merely my views.




> God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.




Zindabad....Ameen to that.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> With due respect to you as a fellow human being on the other side of our tired old globe, Diplomatic Immunity is first, paramount, and foremost when raised as the position of the United States Government who have the facts on their diplomat to know up from down.



The US has not even mentioned the subject by his name . What is his real name? What does he do? They have a deal with Pak then bring it to table or leak it atleast?



> As to separately then investigating the same and a prior criminal history of the two robbers that is an issue separately for the Pakistani officals to then investigate. Why were they living a life of crime and robberies, plural word, robberies, one of which was same day against a Pakistani, just before they failed to execute another robbery against Mr. Davis.



The matter is subjudice the Lahore High Court will determine *facts* in court.
And what about this so called Raymond Davis previous record. who is he? what does he do? etc etc



> I am sure you are a good man but you are repeating wild allegations without facing the core facts of first Diplomatic Immunity, then secondarily the history of the two crooks.



A personal opinion every human on planet is entitled to have one.



> Maybe you want to help better the future of Pakistan, then maybe not. I would hope you care about your good nation and if you do then you can start to understand international law and treaties, separated from local crimes against both Pakistanis and this one American who defend himself.


The Court shall review the matter without prejudice or persecution.


> Back and forth between you, me, and others on PDF will never fix anything. Diplomtic Immunity is the starting point. All else comes after that.


I do not consider it not a zero sum game end of the day you can get different point of views.


> But, to be polite, I understand you disagree but then much of the world disagrees with you right now. But, we are not out to insult you nor Pakistan, and you should have the same view, not be out to insulty me.
> 
> God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.



At last we agree on something.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Now his name is raymond allen?? WTF.... Who the hell is this guy? CIA,Xe who? some covert agent???

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## ephone

I do not understand what his real name has anything to do with this case.

We all know a lot of people in embassy are using fake names, actually spies working for their countries. It is true for US embassies, Russia embassies and I bet it is the same for Pakistan or China Embassies as well.

The best I hope is that there will be a joint investigation for this case and get the real detail about what really happened. 

Nobody here has seen the event with their own eyes or know anything about the real identity or intention of the two dead men. That should be left to the joint investigation.

People here should not use hearsay to justify one way or the other. In the past, people have been wrong many times by their hearsay.


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## Roybot

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Now his name is raymond allen?? WTF.... Who the hell is this guy? CIA,Xe who? some covert agent???



Where did this information come from?


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## American Eagle

Here again folks are making up misinformation maliciously.

Raymond Allen Davis has been identifed by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Department of State.

Someone apparently with limited reading skills has misread the name as it appeared in a newspaper article arranged as follows:



> Davis
> Raymond Allen
> 
> This full name is Raymond Allen Davis.
> 
> End of that mystery.


Now the topic was and remains that Raymond Allen Davis has Diplomatic Immunity as explained in detail by the US Ambassador to Pakistan, and further vouched for by the US Department of State in Washington.

Anthing anyone wants done further comes after, not before, granting Diplomatic Immunity. Diplomatic Immunity is a fact as claimed by the US officially in this matter wherein a US diplomat was put upon by robbers who threatened his life with their weapons unsuccessfully, after having just earlier same day in same Lahore neighborhood having successfully robber a Pakistani gentleman.

The first issue at law is Diplomatic Immunity. That is it.

God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.

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## jha

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Now his name is raymond allen?? WTF.... Who the hell is this guy? CIA,Xe who? some covert agent???



Maybe US is trying to issue him a Diplomatic Passport with a different name ..


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## Pak_Sher

American Eagle said:


> Here again folks are making up misinformation maliciously.
> 
> Raymond Allen Davis has been identifed by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Department of State.
> 
> Someone apparently with limited reading skills has misread the name as it appeared in a newspaper article arrnaged as follows:
> 
> Davis
> Raymond Allen
> 
> This full name is Raymond Allen Davis.
> 
> End of that mystery.



Name does not matter at this point. Though CIA agents and coops have been busted in the past in Pakistan and many spies have been quietly asked to leave or deported. But I think John Doe Davis just went too far and justice must prevail.

If John Doe is innocent then he should be set free. We can keep our fingers crossed and wait for the trail. Regarding your comment "End of Mystery", you may not find too many people @ the moment to agree with that.


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## American Eagle

Fortunately the Government of Pakistan can read the name correctly which remains:

Davis, Raymond Allen if you want to read it as on an official document which requires the last name first.

Be that as it may, there is nothing served here by such silliness.

Raymond Allen Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and that remains the singular issue.

After that is why did the two stick up artists practice a life of crime, having robbed an innocent Paksitani man there in same location in Lahore before their failed attempt at gun point to stick up Raymond Allen Davis.


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## Pak_Sher

American Eagle said:


> Fortunately the Government of Pakistan can read the name correctly which remains:
> 
> Davis, Raymond Allen if you want to read it as on an official document which requires the last name first.
> 
> Be that as it may, there is nothing served here by such silliness.
> 
> Raymond Allen Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and that remains the singular issue.
> 
> After that is why did the two stick up artists practice a life of crime, having robbed an innocent Paksitani man there in same location in Lahore before their failed attempt at gun point to stick up Raymond Allen Davis.



That sounds good, but based on the phone call records of 9 different sim cards found from his 3 different of his rented villas just potray a different story. We still have to find out why he was using a fake license plate and carrying an illegal fire arm. You will have to show the section in the Vienna convention where diplomats can carry illegal firearms and break any law they want under diplomatic immunity.

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## American Eagle

Here is the Police Report naming the two Pakistani doctors whose money and cell phone were stolen by the two robbers. It is time to wait for the implementation of Diplomatic Immunity and get past false attempts to misdescribe a failed armed robbery.

Both the guns, two, recovered one each from the robbers, unlicensed firearms, and the cell phones stolen from the two Pakistani gentlemen are evidence against the two robbers. The cell phones are in fact found to be those of the two doctors the two robbers had just "stuck up" before their failed stick up attempt on American Diplomat Raymond Allen Davis.

*



Lytton Road military pronounced they had perceived dual complaints opposite Faizan & Faheem for attempted robberies upon Friday. They pronounced the complainants were Doctor Mudassar & Sheharyar, who pronounced Faizan & Faheem had snatched their mobile phones & money at gun indicate from Mozang & LOS areas, respectively, in between 1:15pm & 1:30pm upon Friday. Both complainants claimed which they did not surprise the military at the time of the incidents since they were panicked.

They pronounced which they identified the &#8220;robbers&#8221; after saying them upon TV. However, Faizan & Faheem&#8217;s brothers deserted the allegations leveled by the complainants. Faizan&#8217;s hermit pronounced military was conspiring to assist the American, alleging which his hermit was carrying the pistol&#8217;s looseness in his pocket, which military had taken in to control usually to infer which the arms was unlicenced.

Faheem&#8217;s hermit pronounced the usually probability to save the American was to acknowledgement his hermit a pirate & military was doing all to assist the American. On the alternative palm the family groups of Faizan Haider & Faheem Shamshad, the dual boys killed by Davis, claimed which the military was dire them to repel the cases. The military have beefed up confidence in & around the US Consulate in sequence to forestall any unfavourable incident.

Click to expand...

*
Time to implement Diplomatic Immunity and separately complete the crimes committed by the two robbers there in Lahore on the same day, same area.

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## Pak_Sher

We still need to arrest the 2 other diplomats that are still hiding in the US Consulate. They also killed one person, injured a dozen and evaded law enforcement. Eventually they will have to come out. The investigation is still pending and a conclusion cannot be reached at this point.

I think John Doe may havee been impressed by Holloywood Movies too much. One movie I watched many years ago where US Agents broke into the vatican and acting in Italy like it was some ghetto in Detroit.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Both the guns, two, recovered one each from the robbers, unlicensed firearms, and the cell phones stolen from the two Pakistani gentlemen are evidence against the two robbers. The cell phones are in fact found to be those of the two doctors the two robbers had just "stuck up" before their failed stick up attempt on American Diplomat Raymond Allen Davis.



Google translator fails again...


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## American Eagle

You raise a whole other subject.

I think if you will look at the Police Report that is an unknown driver some think may be a Pakistani national who works as a driver for the US Embassy.

A traffic accident with loss of life is not a "murder case."

You are in America where we observe Diplomatic Immunity and law and order pretty well.

It is presuming a science fiction scenario for you to accuse from what little you know here in the US a driver of a vehicle in heavy Paksitan traffic of "murder." That is very unlikely to be the case.

Allegations regarding the separate event of a vehicular death do not bear on Raymond Allen Davis, and the whole title of this Thread from last week is false and untrue phrased to imply he has killed 3 Pakistanis, which is not the case ever.

How about you get back to work, back to graduate school, and let the Pakistanis and the US Dept. of State work out one known failed attempted robbery and another alleged vehicle traffic accident death. Those matters are not for you to "rule on nor decide."

I say often here that those with strong nationalist feelings for Pakistan need to go to Pakistan, join either the military or police, or a social service agency, and become servants of the Pakistani public instead of popping off uselessly outside of Pakistan, where many of the younger writers here were not even born.

God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> I say often here that those with strong nationalist feelings for Pakistan need to go to Pakistan, join either the military or police, or a social service agency, and become servants of the Pakistani public instead of popping off uselessly outside of Pakistan, where many of the younger writers here were not even born.
> 
> God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.


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## American Eagle

Now who do I "blame" for the camel pulling a wagon whic walked up on my Embassy motor pool car I used to drive in Karach, with CD Plates (Corp of Diplomats plates) which camel caved in my trunk and broke out my car's rear window?

Was that a premeditated attack on me as an American?

I think not. Camels in use in my era in Pakistan were badly abused beasts of burder and sometimes the camels just went bezerk or wild and things like what happened to my staff car I was driving just happened.

The Motor Pool Manager at the old Karachi based US Embassy, an American, had a hard time believing my written accident report, I might add. But that was the way it was, wild or run away camel, made at it's driver, crashed into the back of my car as just described.


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## Pak_Sher

I live in the US and respect the law of the land. I have met several diplomats in the past and none of them carry weapons. There were Pakistani soldiers training at a US Base and after training hours they did not even carry firearms and these are military personnel.

What we have seen in thee past 4 years is that the US, NATO, ISAF and Afghan Army do not want to build any posts on the Afghan Border with less then 130 check posts as compareed to 900+ Pakistani Army Checkposts and they want to push the war, terrorists, weapons, suicide bombers and Blackwater Agents into Pakistan so Pakistan can do their fighting for them. We have suffered enough and in general the war next door cannto be an opeen ended conflict and neeeds to come to a logical end.

Please read the thread in the same section under Current Affairs "US Spy Network Exposed", so it is a lot more than traffic violations and self defence. We can go on and on but lets wait for additional details to come.

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> Now who do I "blame" for the camel pulling a wagon whic walked up on my Embassy motor pool car I used to drive in Karach, with CD Plates (Corp of Diplomats plates) which camel caved in my trunk and broke out my car's rear window?
> 
> Was that a premedicated attack on me as an American?
> 
> I think not. Camels in use in my era in Pakistan were badly abused beasts of burder and sometimes the camels just went bezerk or wild and things like what happened to my staff car I was driving just happened.
> 
> The Motor Pool Manager at the old Karachi based US Embassy, an American, had a hard time believing my written accident report, I might add. But that was the way it was, wild or run away camel, made at it's driver, crashed into the back of my car as just described.



Sorry sir but this post is pointless... With all due respect to your age and polite nature. 

Kindly sir, shall we please stick to discussing the facts of the case relating to Mr. Steve/Ray Allen Davis.

Greatly Appreciated.


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## mshoaib61

LAHORE &#8211; Even after the Raymond Davis episode exposed the presence of the US spy network actively operating in the terror-hit country, the United States on Tuesday categorically said they would not pull out any security contractor from Pakistan. &#8220;We have no plans to withdraw anybody. We are not withdrawing anybody,&#8221; said Courtney Beale, spokesperson at the US Embassy in Islamabad while talking to The Nation on Tuesday.
When asked whether the Pakistani government had contacted them to pull out private security contractors, she said they had not heard from the government on the issue.
To another question, she said the US Embassy officials were seriously considering defending Raymond Davis, facing multiple criminal charges, in a local court in Lahore. &#8220;Yes, we are looking into how best to represent him in the court,&#8221; Courtney added.
Sources said after losing all hopes and asserting pressure on the Pakistani political leaders for the release of Davis, the US had been left with no other option but to face the court to defend its national.
On the other hand, the federal government is preparing to push the United States to wrap up its spy network and withdraw hundreds of undercover agents, operating across the country as private security contractors to guard the US installations and interests.
The Interior and Foreign ministries are working together to find out ways to kick out the undercover agents from the country after properly scrutinising their visas and passports by defining their legal status.
The United Sates had hired hundreds of professionals like Davis from the US-based private security companies and they later were deployed in the major cities including Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad.
The government sources say these undercover US nationals are on visit visas in Pakistan.
According to the US media, the double murder accused Raymond Davis runs Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC, a company that provides &#8216;loss and risk management professionals&#8217;.

US spy network exposed | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## RescueRanger

> No favour to American gunman, govt tells National Assembly



ISLAMABAD: Responding to a lingering concern among opposition circles over the circumstances of a deadly shootout in Lahore last week involving a US mission employee, the government told the National Assembly on Tuesday it would do no favour to the arrested American and proceed according to Pakistani law.

The reassurance from Information and Broadcasting Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira came after an opposition member sought clarifications over issues such as the status and nature of work of the American, Raymond Davis, who allegedly shot dead two Pakistani motorcyclists who he says were pursuing him for an attack on a road in Lahore on Thursday while a third Pakistani man was run over and killed by another vehicle that appeared on the scene at the time.

Earlier the house passed an opposition member&#8217;s private bill to provide for a parliamentary oversight of the privatisation of public sector enterprises with the inclusion of four parliament members in the Privatisation Commission Board after some sparks of anger over the absence of law and parliamentary affairs minister from the house that kept a private bill of a member of the ruling PPP seeking higher punishment for acid-throwing on women from being taken up for the second consecutive private member&#8217;s day of the present session.

&#8220;Your concern is the whole nation&#8217;s concern,&#8221; Mr Kaira said after a PML-N member of the house from Lahore, Khawaja Saad Raifque, raised the issue of the Lahore shooting, accusing the government of showing &#8220;one face to the nation and another to foreigners&#8221; and failing to clarify the status of the American who he said &#8212; quoting &#8220;our information&#8221; &#8212; was &#8220;doing some secret job&#8221; in the US Consulate-General in Lahore.

Mr Kaira said statements already made by President Asif Ali Zardari to an American Congress delegation on Sunday and by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani elsewhere about the government&#8217;s position to let the law take its course should have been enough to satisfy sceptics, and urged lawmakers to wait for the result of investigation by the police of the Punjab province, which is ruled by the PML-N.Yet he said: &#8220;We are with you on this issue, rather one step ahead. There will be no favour shown to him and (relevant) law will be acted upon.&#8221;But two more opposition members, Dr Atiya Inayatullah of the opposition PML-Q and Sahibzada Mohammad Fazal-i-Karim of PML-N did not seem satisfied while Mr Rafique came back on the issue, prompting Mr Kaira to make a second appeal to them to wait for the investigation&#8217;s result before the house was adjourned until 10am on Wednesday.

The PPP&#8217;s Fakhar-un-Nisa Khokher, a former judge of the Lahore High Court, seemed taking a revenge on Law and Parliamentary Affairs Minister Babar Awan as she forced a suspension of the house for lack of quorum after finding out that her bill seeking higher punishment for acid-throwing on women, which was on the top of the day&#8217;s legislative agenda, would not be taken up due to the minister&#8217;s absence.

Ms Khokher pointed out the lack of the required quorum of 86 members, or one-fourth of the 342-seat house, and insisted on a head count, ignoring pleas from Petroleum and Natural Resouces Minister Naveed Qamar and Speaker Fehmida Mirza to follow the general practice of not raising the quorum question on a private members&#8217; day.

No favour to American gunman, govt tells NA | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## Thomas

Pak_Sher said:


> I live in the US and respect the law of the land. I have met several diplomats in the past and none of them carry weapons. There were Pakistani soldiers training at a US Base and after training hours they did not even carry firearms and these are military personnel.



In the U.S. we do not have suicide bombers, and insurgents actively targeting Pakistani soldiers or it's diplomats.

In Pakistan when U.S. Special Forces soldiers go out on missions with the Army or Frontier Corp they are armed. Though they are not allowed to actively participate in combat they are allowed to defend themselves if attacked.


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## RescueRanger

Thomas said:


> In the U.S. we do not have suicide bombers, and insurgents actively targeting Pakistani soldiers or it's diplomats.
> 
> In Pakistan when U.S. Special Forces soldiers go out on missions with the Army or Frontier Corp they are armed. Though they are not allowed to actively participate in combat they are allowed to defend themselves if attacked.





> n the U.S. we do not have suicide bombers, and insurgents actively targeting Pakistani soldiers or it's diplomats.



No.. But you do have your fair share of retards:








> In Pakistan when U.S. Special Forces soldiers go out on missions with the Army or Frontier Corp they are armed. Though they are not allowed to actively participate in combat they are allowed to defend themselves if attacked.



As are the MSG within the embassies and as are the BDS Diplomatic Agents who accompany DOD and US Diplomats, but their case is different from that of Mr. Davis, because they have permission.

Believe it or not, every time US agents traveled to Marriott in Islamabad they provided a detailed list of guys who would be "carrying" and what weapons they would be carrying... I saw these lists on numerous occasions when doing EVAs there for our government. 

The difference between them and Ray... They are "allowed" to carry weapons by the Ministry of Interior and carry special permits for a specific route:i.e. from Diplomatic Enclave via Constitution Ave to Aga Khan Road and Marriott Hotel.

Ray had no such permit. He had not communicated with our DPD that he was carrying. The RSO has labelled that part of lahore OFF Limits to US Officials. 




> In Pakistan when U.S. Special Forces soldiers go out on missions with the Army or Frontier Corp they are armed.



Incorrect they are present in an advisory capacity and do not actively participate in missions, they are only in Pakistan for "capacity development" and not to provide support i.e.: Columbia. 

Furthermore i need to just throw it out there, that the's world's foremost expert on EOD is a Pakistani working in Islamabad Police and is a very respected member of IABTI .

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## Thomas

RescueRanger said:


> Incorrect they are present in an advisory capacity and do not actively participate in missions, they are only in Pakistan for "capacity development" and not to provide support i.e.: Columbia.



I have an aversion to posting actual documents marked secret. so I am not posting the wikileaks document on the matter. Here is a website that reported on it. 

US Special Forces teams deployed with Pakistani Army - The Long War Journal



Over the past year, US special operations forces teams have deployed with the Pakistani Army to serve in a combat support role.

Small teams from the US Special Operations Command have deployed with Pakistani Army headquarters units in the Taliban-controlled tribal agencies of Bajaur and North and South Waziristan "to provide intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) support and general operational advice" for ongoing combat operations. The presence of three such teams have been detected over the past year.

The deployment of US special operations forces was disclosed in the US State Department cables leaked by WikiLeaks. The cable, which is dated Oct. 9, 2009, was written by Anne Patterson, then the US Ambassador to Pakistan. 

The deployment of the first team was to the tribal agency of Bajaur, where the Pakistani military has twice declared victory against Taliban forces under the command of Faqir Mohammed. The Pakistani Army first claimed a total Taliban defeat in March 2008, and did so again in March 2009. 

"The Pakistani Army has for just the second time approved deployment of U.S. special operation elements to support Pakistani military operations," Patterson wrote. "The first deployment, with SOC(FWD)-PAK [Special Operations Command Forward, Pakistan] elements embedded with the Frontier Corps in Bajaur Agency, occurred in September."

The deployment of a special operations team "provided ISR [intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance] for an FC [Frontier Corps] operation. This support was highly successful, enabling the FC to execute a precise and effective artillery strike on an enemy location."

In early October, the Pakistan Army General Headquarters again requested the deployment of teams to North and South Waziristan "in order to provide intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) support and general operational advice" to 11 Corps. "SOC(FWD)-PAK support to 11 Corps would be at the [location redacted] and would include a live downlink of unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) full motion video."

The Pakistani request for US special operations teams occurred just two weeks before the Pakistani Army launched its military offensive against the Taliban under the command of al Qaeda allies Hakeemullah and Waliur Rahman Mehsud in the Mehsud tribal areas in the eastern region of South Waziristan. The Pakistani Army did not advance on al Qaeda and Taliban havens in the Wazir areas in South Waziristan and has continued to rebuff US pressure to move into North Waziristan, which is considered the headquarters of al Qaeda's global operations.

Ambassador Patterson's cable highlights the limited role the US military has played in Pakistan. 

"U.S. special operation elements have been in Pakistan for more than a year, but were largely limited to a training role," she wrote. "The Pakistani Army leadership previously adamantly opposed letting us embed U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF) with their military forces to support their operations."

The presence of US special operations forces in northwestern Pakistan was confirmed in February 2010 when three US soldiers were killed in a suicide attack in the settled district of Dir, just north of Bajaur. The US embassy in Islamabad insisted the three US soldiers were providing training and assistance to the Pakistan Frontier Corps.

The deployment of US military teams in support of military operations was cause for optimism, and "appears to represent a sea change in Pakistani thinking," Patterson stated. "Patient relationship-building with the military is the key factor that has brought us to this point."

But Patterson warned that disclosure of the deployment of US ground teams would jeopardize future cooperation. 

"These deployments are highly politically sensitive because of widely-held concerns among the public about Pakistani sovereignty and opposition to allowing foreign military forces to operate in any fashion on Pakistani soil," Patterson said. "Should these developments and/or related matters receive any coverage in the Pakistani or US media, the Pakistani military will likely stop making requests for such assistance."


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## Thomas

RescueRanger said:


> No.. But you do have your fair share of retards:




Those guys are retards, but I will defend those retards right to say what they believe without fear of being murdered or imprisoned unlike other countries we know.

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## American Eagle

I agree with your tone, which is that blame is a cheap commodity and a little goes a long way.

Pakistanis I know, past and current, are brave allies. US miliary I know today are likewise brave and solid.

Terrorism has struck both here at home, staring in 1993 with the failed first attack on the Twin Trade Towers and over there, too, with an awful number of suicide bombings and other terrorist events against so very many innocent Pakistani men, women, and children in major metro areas all over, not limited to the northern areas alone of Pakistan.

Lawlessness is especially bad today in Pakistan per my very good friends here in my USA home town who still keep a home in Karachi as well as being US citizens here, with solid businesses they own and operate here now, too.

We are all victums. 

Glad to know you are a good citizen in the USA.

Question: What languages, obviously other than English, are you proficient in?

Cheers.


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## RescueRanger

Thomas said:


> I have an aversion to posting actual documents marked secret. so I am not posting the wikileaks document on the matter. Here is a website that reported on it.
> 
> US Special Forces teams deployed with Pakistani Army - The Long War Journal
> 
> 
> 
> Over the past year, US special operations forces teams have deployed with the Pakistani Army to serve in a combat support role.
> 
> Small teams from the US Special Operations Command have deployed with Pakistani Army headquarters units in the Taliban-controlled tribal agencies of Bajaur and North and South Waziristan "to provide intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) support and general operational advice" for ongoing combat operations. The presence of three such teams have been detected over the past year.
> 
> The deployment of US special operations forces was disclosed in the US State Department cables leaked by WikiLeaks. The cable, which is dated Oct. 9, 2009, was written by Anne Patterson, then the US Ambassador to Pakistan.
> 
> The deployment of the first team was to the tribal agency of Bajaur, where the Pakistani military has twice declared victory against Taliban forces under the command of Faqir Mohammed. The Pakistani Army first claimed a total Taliban defeat in March 2008, and did so again in March 2009.
> 
> "The Pakistani Army has for just the second time approved deployment of U.S. special operation elements to support Pakistani military operations," Patterson wrote. "The first deployment, with SOC(FWD)-PAK [Special Operations Command Forward, Pakistan] elements embedded with the Frontier Corps in Bajaur Agency, occurred in September."
> 
> The deployment of a special operations team "provided ISR [intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance] for an FC [Frontier Corps] operation. This support was highly successful, enabling the FC to execute a precise and effective artillery strike on an enemy location."
> 
> In early October, the Pakistan Army General Headquarters again requested the deployment of teams to North and South Waziristan "in order to provide intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) support and general operational advice" to 11 Corps. "SOC(FWD)-PAK support to 11 Corps would be at the [location redacted] and would include a live downlink of unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) full motion video."
> 
> The Pakistani request for US special operations teams occurred just two weeks before the Pakistani Army launched its military offensive against the Taliban under the command of al Qaeda allies Hakeemullah and Waliur Rahman Mehsud in the Mehsud tribal areas in the eastern region of South Waziristan. The Pakistani Army did not advance on al Qaeda and Taliban havens in the Wazir areas in South Waziristan and has continued to rebuff US pressure to move into North Waziristan, which is considered the headquarters of al Qaeda's global operations.
> 
> Ambassador Patterson's cable highlights the limited role the US military has played in Pakistan.
> 
> "U.S. special operation elements have been in Pakistan for more than a year, but were largely limited to a training role," she wrote. "The Pakistani Army leadership previously adamantly opposed letting us embed U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF) with their military forces to support their operations."
> 
> The presence of US special operations forces in northwestern Pakistan was confirmed in February 2010 when three US soldiers were killed in a suicide attack in the settled district of Dir, just north of Bajaur. The US embassy in Islamabad insisted the three US soldiers were providing training and assistance to the Pakistan Frontier Corps.
> 
> The deployment of US military teams in support of military operations was cause for optimism, and "appears to represent a sea change in Pakistani thinking," Patterson stated. "Patient relationship-building with the military is the key factor that has brought us to this point."
> 
> But Patterson warned that disclosure of the deployment of US ground teams would jeopardize future cooperation.
> 
> "These deployments are highly politically sensitive because of widely-held concerns among the public about Pakistani sovereignty and opposition to allowing foreign military forces to operate in any fashion on Pakistani soil," Patterson said. "Should these developments and/or related matters receive any coverage in the Pakistani or US media, the Pakistani military will likely stop making requests for such assistance."



Exactly:


> intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance


That is capacity development, a capacity Pakistani assets lack and the US partners provide. 

Sorry Thomas i know what your saying but trust me, i can say this with surety that the US will not be allowed to enter a combat role in Pakistan because of the backlash within the GHQ. 

That being said, i actually welcome closer cooperation with the US on capacity development.


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## American Eagle

RescueRanger said:


> Sorry sir but this post is pointless... With all due respect to your age and polite nature.
> 
> Kindly sir, shall we please stick to discussing the facts of the case relating to Mr. Steve/Ray Allen Davis.
> 
> Greatly Appreciated.



We disagree again here.

The style and character of roundabout traffic in Lahore and elsewhere is germaine, as is the uniqueness of having animals involved in traffic over there, both camels and water buffaloes.

We are discussing two very different styles of society, both prefectly good in their own right, with different value systems in several instances.

If folks had stuck to the facts literally we would not have had this long drawn out thread full of absurdities. But, freedom of speech and all that.

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## Thomas

RescueRanger said:


> Exactly:
> 
> That is capacity development, a capacity Pakistani assets lack and the US partners provide.
> 
> Sorry Thomas i know what your saying but trust me, i can say this with surety that the US will not be allowed to enter a combat role in Pakistan because of the backlash within the GHQ.
> 
> That being said, i actually welcome closer cooperation with the US on capacity development.



did I not say originally they are not allowed to actually engage in combat? They do carry weapons for personal protection if attacked.

U.S. Forces Step Up Presence in Pakistan - WSJ.com

*"The U.S. troops are allowed to defend themselves and return fire if attacked."*

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> We disagree again here.
> 
> The style and character of roundabout traffic in Lahore and elsewhere
> is germaine, as is the uniqueness of having animals involved in traffic over there, both camels and water buffaloes.
> 
> We are discussing two very different styles of society, both prefectly good in their own right, with different value systems in several instances.
> 
> If folks had stuck to the facts literally we would not have had this long drawn out thread full of absurdities. But, freedom of speech and all that.



Point taken.


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## AstanoshKhan

*LHC orders placing Davis on ECL*

Feb 02, 2011

F.P. Lahore Office LAHORE: The Lahore High Court (LHC) on Tuesday ordered to place the name of Raymond Davis, who allegedly killed two Pakistanis last week, on the Exit Control List (ECL). 

The court also sought report from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs till February 17 in this regard. LHC Chief Justice Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry passed the orders on four identical petitions against possible handing over of Raymond Davis to the United States (US). Deputy Attorney General Naveed Inayet Malik submitted a report on behalf of the Secretary Interior saying that an advice had been sought from the Foreign Ministry to clarify whether accused Raymond Davis was an employee of the US Embassy and enjoyed diplomatic status or not. 
The DAG requested the court to grant further time for the report from the Foreign Ministry. 

Advocate General Punjab Khawaja Harris submitted that the matter of enjoying diplomatic status by the accused had neither arisen so far nor had been claimed on behalf of the accused. Both the law officers denied the allegation that the accused would be extradited. They also said that the government was not under pressure from any quarter whatsoever on the matter. After hearing arguments and going through the report by the Secretary Interior, the Chief Justice observed that apparently the petitioners had brought genuine grievances before the court. The court asked the DAG to get report from the Foreign Ministry and present it before the court till Feb 17, next date of hearing. 

The court also directed the DAG to ensure that the name of Raymond Davis was placed on ECL. The court was hearing petitions filed by Asif Hussain, Muhammad Asghar, Ahmad Masood Gujjar and Iqbal Jafferi. The petitioners' counsels submitted before the court that Raymond Davis killed two Pakistanis with criminal intentions at Mozang Chungi, Lahore, whereas another innocent citizen was crushed to death by American Consulate security personnel van that came to rescue the accused. They contended that according to the Diplomatic Convention of 1961 and Vienna Convention the attache level officials and technical staff in any foreign mission were not supposed to enjoy any immunity from the law. They further contended that a bare persual of provisions of Section 24 to 29 of Vienna Convention reveal that if any ambassador, consular or other working staff on any diplomatic assignment is found involved in any serious criminal activity, the country, he belongs, could withdraw his immunity. The counsels further contended that American constitution also allows the courts of country where the assignee commit any crime to proceed against him under the prevalent provisions of law. They further submitted that they had strong apprehension that the accused might be handed over to the US. They contended that the federation had no discretion in the matter to hand over the accused to other country without trial. They prayed the court to restrain handing over and shifting of the accused outside the Jurisdiction of the court till the final disposal of criminal cases registered against him. They also requested the court to direct the federal government to place the name of the accused person in Exit Control List (ECL) and order an independent judicial inquiry of the incident. "I am restraining him (from being handed over to US authorities). Whether he has or does not have (diplomatic) immunity will be decided by the court," ruled Lahore high court chief justice Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry. "An order is issued to put his name on the ECL (exit control list). The case is adjourned for 15 days." Khaja Haris, the advocate general of Punjab - the chief law officer in the province where Davis shot the motorcyclists - told the court that the Vienna Convention provides immunity to diplomats "within certain limits." "The federal government has to give a certificate on whether the man has diplomatic immunity or not and whether his diplomatic status is confirmed or not," Haris said. "What we hear about him and his immunity is through the press only. Since he is involved in a grave crime, this issue has to be decided by the court." 

The Frontier Post

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## AstanoshKhan

Guys something really is cooking up there among the diaspora of Govt. goons.

*Dy Prosecutor General resigns*

LAHORE (INP): *Deputy Prosecutor General Punjab Rana Bakhtiar resigned on Tuesday after he was separated from the Raymond Davis case apparently for his blunt assertions on the issue.* Deputy Prosecutor General Punjab Rana Bakhtiar while talking to media on the occasion of Raymond&#8217;s trial had stated that *Raymond Davis was not a US diplomat and therefore does not enjoy immunity and his act was not in self-defense.* According to the sources, Additional Prosecutor General Abdul Samad has been appointed as official counsel in Raymond Davis case. According to sources, Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah took serious notice of his statements and ordered the Prosecution Department to stop issuing such statements* Bakhtiar told media that he gave the statement in accordance with the law and available record, adding that he tendered his resignation over his dismissal from the Raymond Davis case.*

http://www.thefrontierpost.com/News.aspx?ncat=ts&nid=1717

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## DV RULES

American Eagle said:


> Here again folks are making up misinformation maliciously.
> 
> Raymond Allen Davis has been identifed by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Department of State.
> 
> Someone apparently with limited reading skills has misread the name as it appeared in a newspaper article arranged as follows:
> 
> 
> Now the topic was and remains that Raymond Allen Davis has Diplomatic Immunity as explained in detail by the US Ambassador to Pakistan, and further vouched for by the US Department of State in Washington.
> 
> Anthing anyone wants done further comes after, not before, granting Diplomatic Immunity. Diplomatic Immunity is a fact as claimed by the US officially in this matter wherein a US diplomat was put upon by robbers who threatened his life with their weapons unsuccessfully, after having just earlier same day in same Lahore neighborhood having successfully robber a Pakistani gentleman.
> 
> The first issue at law is Diplomatic Immunity. That is it.
> 
> God Bless America and Pakistan Zindabad.




Davis hasn't diplomatic immunity as declared by Ministry of foreign affairs Pakistan on 29th January 2011. 


Vouched by US DOS doesn't mean assured & accepted by GOP. 
He didn't went ATM & nobody want to kill him. There is no need to add here. He did crime and will face law. That is it


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## American Eagle

Here is the Police Report naming the two Pakistani doctors whose money and cell phone were stolen by the two robbers. It is time to wait for the implementation of Diplomatic Immunity and get past false attempts to misdescribe a failed armed robbery.

Both the guns, two, recovered one each from the robbers, unlicensed firearms, and the cell phones stolen from the two Pakistani gentlemen are evidence against the two robbers. The cell phones are in fact found to be those of the two doctors the two robbers had just "stuck up" before their failed stick up attempt on American Diplomat Raymond Allen Davis.




> Lytton Road military pronounced they had perceived dual complaints opposite Faizan & Faheem for attempted robberies upon Friday. They pronounced the complainants were Doctor Mudassar & Sheharyar, who pronounced Faizan & Faheem had snatched their mobile phones & money at gun indicate from Mozang & LOS areas, respectively, in between 1:15pm & 1:30pm upon Friday. Both complainants claimed which they did not surprise the military at the time of the incidents since they were panicked.
> 
> They pronounced which they identified the &#8220;robbers&#8221; after saying them upon TV. However, Faizan & Faheem&#8217;s brothers deserted the allegations leveled by the complainants. Faizan&#8217;s hermit pronounced military was conspiring to assist the American, alleging which his hermit was carrying the pistol&#8217;s looseness in his pocket, which military had taken in to control usually to infer which the arms was unlicenced.
> 
> Faheem&#8217;s hermit pronounced the usually probability to save the American was to acknowledgement his hermit a pirate & military was doing all to assist the American. On the alternative palm the family groups of Faizan Haider & Faheem Shamshad, the dual boys killed by Davis, claimed which the military was dire them to repel the cases. The military have beefed up confidence in & around the US Consulate in sequence to forestall any unfavourable incident.




Time to implement Diplomatic Immunity and separately complete the crimes committed by the two robbers there in Lahore on the same day, same area.

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## American Eagle

Karachi DAWN, Wednesday, 2 Feb. 2011



> LAHORE: Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Wednesday said that Raymond Davis held a diplomatic visa in Pakistan.

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## JonAsad

American Eagle said:


> Karachi DAWN, Wednesday, 2 Feb. 2011





> LAHORE: Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Wednesday said that Raymond Davis held a diplomatic visa in Pakistan.



Diplomatic visa does not automatically means he has diplomatic immunity, after getting diplomatic visa one has to submit his documents in the foreign office requesting for the immunity, in this particular case to Ministry of Foreign Affairs- Pakistan.

The billion dollar question stills the same, does he have Diplomatic Immunity? and of which level.


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## JonAsad

This is a very interesting read.



> The [Vienna] conventions provide immunity to persons according to their *rank in a diplomatic mission or consular post* and according to the need for immunity in performing their duties.
> 
> For example,
> 
> *Diplomatic agents and members of their immediate families* are immune from all criminal prosecution and most civil law suits.
> 
> *Administrative and technical staff member*s of embassies have a lower level of immunity.
> 
> *Consular officers* serving in consulates throughout the country have an even lower level of immunity.
> 
> *Members of an embassy's service staff and consular employees* are immune only for acts performed as part of their official duties.

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## VCheng

> LAHORE: Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Wednesday said that Raymond Davis held a diplomatic visa in Pakistan.



The second chess piece moves. The prosecutor who had made a public statement to the contrary has already been removed from the case and has since resigned. The provincial government will have to go by the diplomatic status conveyed to it by the Federal government.

It will soon be all sorted out.


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## Elmo

Cafe Pyala

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2011

*A Brief History of Diplomatic Immunity*


Since we Pakistanis often suffer simultaneously from the twin demons of megalomania and paranoia - verily we are better than everyone else and that is why everyone is out to get us - we often also look at history through a rather selective and distorted lens. Unfortunately, none typify this mindset more than the doyens and doyennes of the Pakistani electronic media, in whom a curious mix of hyper-patriotism, half-baked information, sincere ignorance and arrogant bluster seems generally to hold sway.

Take the issue of the day on Pakistani media: whether the American known by his apparent pseudonym "Raymond Davis" - who shot dead two men in Lahore - can be tried by Pakistani courts or whether the US government has any right to claim diplomatic immunity for him. I am not going to offer my own opinion on this because, for better or worse, this is an issue for the US and Pakistani states to sort out. (I should, however, point out that, personally speaking, I do not think armed Americans or armed anyone should be roaming around the streets of Pakistan.)

But having seen numerous commentaries on television where emotive claims have been made about how Americans have not respected diplomatic immunity in their own cases, how immunity does not extend to serious crimes or how Pakistani diplomats have never been extended this kind of privilege, I just want to direct readers to a few examples.

Here's The Independent reporting in 1997 about a case in which a drunk Georgian diplomat killed a 16-year-old girl in New York with his reckless driving and the US requested a waiver from immunity for him. (The paper reports that Georgia was unlikely to approve the request though it actually was at the discretion of the Georgian government and the diplomat was sentenced for 7-21 years. He was transferred back to Georgia after serving three years [link courtesy @qabacha].) The piece also cites other incidences of less egregious crimes by diplomats that go unpunished. Appropriately for us, the story is titled "Can A Diplomat Get Away With Murder?"

You may also recall the shooting dead of British constable Yvonne Fletcher apparently by Libyan embassy staff in London in 1984 as well as the wounding of 11 others. Diplomatic immunity allowed the staff not to be prosecuted at all, though Britain subsequently broke off diplomatic relations with Libya. Fifteen years later, Libya accepted "general responsibility" and paid compensation, though some experts continued to question whether the police officer's death was actually caused by someone shooting from within the embassy.

Coming to Pakistani diplomats invoking diplomatic immunity, let us recall the case of our Ambassador to Spain, Mr. Haroon-ur-Rashid Abbasi, who Pakistan withdrew from his post in 1975 without allowing prosecution when heroin was discovered in his suitcase.

Let us also recall the case of our longtime permanent rep at the UN, Ambassador Munir Akram in 2003 who was accused of assault by his then girlfriend. The US also asked Pakistan to waive immunity in that case, which Pakistan did not oblige. (The case was eventually settled when Mr Akram persuaded his girlfriend to withdraw the charges against him).

So, as they say, au contraire, my friends.

Some final points, and please remember that we are only taking issue with the 'facts' of the case as presented in the media. Television analysts have almost unanimously claimed that "Davis" did not have a 'diplomatic visa'. It might behoove someone to ask our media pundits if they have ever actually seen a Pakistani diplomatic visa. From our own investigations, it seems Pakistani visas have no such specified category of 'Diplomatic Visa' (unlike some other countries). In fact, according our sources, all foreign diplomats receive Pakistani visas with the marking "Purpose of Visit:" "Official" or "Official Business" (not Official / Business, another category that does not exist) on their diplomatic passports. If they carry such a visa on their diplomatic passport and the Foreign Office has been so notified, they receive diplomatic immunity during their stay in Pakistan.

Here are some scans of Davis' passport as presented on DawnNews' Reporter programme...

This is the marking on his passport, which clearly states that he is on "diplomatic assignment" (click picture to enlarge):








This is his current visa, issued incidentally not in Washington (as claimed by Shireen Mazari on Geo and Syed Talat Hussain on DawnNews) but in Islamabad:








In fact, "Davis" only once received a three-month visa in 2009 from Washington. His subsequent 4-month visa in 2010 and his current 2-year visa were both issued within Pakistan.

Kamran Khan on Geo also went to great lengths to 'break the news' that "Davis" is a spy who works for the CIA. He almost certainly is. But not only is that not amazing insight, we have to ask, so? Is his actual work the issue of contention here? As former ambassador Zafar Hilaly pointed out on Dunya, spooks get posted on "cover postings" abroad all the time, including by the Pakistan Foreign Office, and they all receive diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention. Let's at least be clear what we are arguing about.

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## khurasaan1

American Eagle said:


> Here is the Police Report naming the two Pakistani doctors whose money and cell phone were stolen by the two robbers. It is time to wait for the implementation of Diplomatic Immunity and get past false attempts to misdescribe a failed armed robbery.
> 
> Both the guns, two, recovered one each from the robbers, unlicensed firearms, and the cell phones stolen from the two Pakistani gentlemen are evidence against the two robbers. The cell phones are in fact found to be those of the two doctors the two robbers had just "stuck up" before their failed stick up attempt on American Diplomat Raymond Allen Davis.
> 
> 
> 
> Time to implement Diplomatic Immunity and separately complete the crimes committed by the two robbers there in Lahore on the same day, same area.



Come on man I heard pplz saying that these two guyz were trained as terrorists in mujahideen( secretly run by CIA agents) camp in Afghanistan to do terrorism in Pakistan but these guyz ran away from the scene so the guy Raimond Davis was given the target to finish/kill these guyz cuz they decieved the CIA before the secrecy gets leaked out.
That is why these guyz were shot from the back...
I heard many guyz ran away from the mujahideen(in fact CIA) camps in Afghanistan cuz they come to know that they are the CIA and not the Mujahideen cuz Mujahideen never kills innocent pplz anywhere in the world...
Some pplz ran away after they completed their terrorist training and when they were given the task to do terrorism act in Pakistan.
So the situation here is that these under cover CIA agents are trying to hunt down these guyz before the secrecy gets leaked out....
the secrecy is already leaked out bro...
rest the whole story crafted by Mr. Raimond Davis is a cover up...
nice try guyz ...nice try....
pplz already know here that who is training and sending terrorists in Pakistan for bomb blasting...etc ...etc... everybody is smart nowadayz bro......


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> The second chess piece moves. The prosecutor who had made a public statement to the contrary has already been removed from the case and has since resigned. The provincial government will have to go by the diplomatic status conveyed to it by the Federal government.
> 
> It will soon be all sorted out.


Exactly then Mr. Malik should answer why he didn't confirm this a week ago when the debate on his immunity had started off...

Release him and put Mr. Malik on trial.


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## JonAsad

I think i am missing some thing..

Mr Davis had diplomatic passport-- Yes
Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity-- ??


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## Awesome

Glorious Resolve said:


> I think i am missing some thing..
> 
> Mr Davis had diplomatic passport-- Yes
> Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity-- ??


If he has diplomatic passport and diplomatic visa, then that automatically compels Pakistan to give him immunity.

Obviously security agencies effed up by granting him immunity
Malik's competency should come into question by not manning up to this info from the get go.

Although the immunity may not be from prosecution... It will be that he'd be tried, evidence brought forward (as we've already seen that most of the bullet holes were fired on the backs of the victims), he may be declared guilty, his connection with security agencies be exposed but in the end he'd be let go due to immunity.

Technically it may be illegal to detain a diplomat for so long, but who cares, he just killed our people, he should suffer.

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## kugga

Is Mr. Davis really Mr. Davis ??

I mean the Diplomatic visa is of Mr. Davis not the one who's held by Pakistani authorities ....


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## Spring Onion

Asim Aquil said:


> Exactly then Mr. Malik should answer why he didn't confirm this a week ago when the debate on his immunity had started off...
> 
> Release him and put Mr. Malik on trial.



Because he was thinking he will GET away with issuance of visas to US operatives including CIA, BW and what not directly . the troika of Rehman Malik, Zardari and Hussain Haqqani are in this.


----------



## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Exactly then Mr. Malik should answer why he didn't confirm this a week ago when the debate on his immunity had started off...
> 
> Release him and put Mr. Malik on trial.



The official line will be "due diligence for a sensitive matter". The behind the scenes story is not for public consumption, least of all in this thread.

The next few moves will end the game soon enough.


----------



## VCheng

Jana said:


> Because he was thinking he will do away with issuance of visas to US operatives including CIA, BW and what not directly . the troika of Rehman Malik, Zardari and Hussain Haqqani are in this.



Those three are just figureheads. The real power in this issue lies elsewhere JanaJi.


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## JonAsad

Asim Aquil said:


> If he has diplomatic passport and diplomatic visa, then that automatically compels Pakistan to give him immunity.
> 
> Obviously security agencies effed up by granting him immunity
> Malik's competency should come into question by not manning up to this info from the get go.
> 
> Although the immunity may not be from prosecution... It will be that he'd be tried, evidence brought forward (as we've already seen that most of the bullet holes were fired on the backs of the victims), he may be declared guilty, his connection with security agencies be exposed but in the end he'd be let go due to immunity.
> 
> Technically it may be illegal to detain a diplomat for so long, but who cares, he just killed our people, he should suffer.



If found guilty, we can ask the Americans to waiver his diplomatic immunity, what are the chances of that happening?


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## VCheng

Glorious Resolve said:


> If found guilty, we can ask the Americans to waiver his diplomatic immunity, *what are the chances of that happening?*



Zip, Zero, and Zilch!

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## fida jan

this is USA

home country grants these americans hospitality by considering them diplomats and protecting them and treating them as special guests

they reciprocate their feelings by coming here and killing a couple of citizens

its time we need to move foreward and retaiate by killing 6-7 americans in afghanistan and lets help the talibans, enuf is enuf

and its lesson for pakistanis to not let these under cover criminals to roam free next time and thoroughly strip search them if they come to pakistan next them.. they dont deserve to have freedom here..

pakistani govt must ensure the americans who come here, are properly processed, have good character and no illegal things, and dont have CIA or other false back grounds

americans in pakistan are like animals with criminal background, sent here to spy on us and use our soil for their dirty work against us, and make terrorist activities, they deserve to be treated like fit.hy swine..


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## ajtr




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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> The official line will be "due diligence for a sensitive matter". The behind the scenes story is not for public consumption, least of all in this thread.
> 
> The next few moves will end the game soon enough.



 we know that already even a layman believes the same here

But this incident is surely going to add to few things


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## logic

State Department confused to establish identity of Raymond Davis PDF Print E-mail
ISLAMABAD, Feb 2 (APP): The killing of two Lahore boys by a US national has gelled the nation together in demanding legal course of action and in standing up to the US pressure to release its citizen. The US which has so far been unable to build up a case for its diplomat has demanded immunity under the Vienna Convention and called for his immediate release. *The government on Wednesday placed his name on the Exit Control List, on the instructions of the court*, while another case has been filed against him for carrying illegal weapon.

The United States has been trying to establish that Raymond Davis has been serving as a technical and administrative staff with the US embassy Islamabad. *However it failed to justify as what was he doing in Lahore and why was he carrying a gun*.

The White House Spokesman P J Crowley when questioned about the nature of Raymonds job, his real name and why was he carrying a gun, briefly answered I*m not at liberty to talk about his identity yet.* So it is very strange that his identity could not be even established by the State Department.
Asked why he was not issued a diplomatic visa, the spokesman said Look, this is a matter that we are still discussing with the Government of Pakistan.
The United States Embassy in Pakistan on Jan 29 demanded immediate release of its unlawfully detained diplomat, who has a diplomatic passport and Pakistani visa valid until June 2012.

Legal experts believe that wrong interpretations of the Vienna Convention are being floated to serve vested interests; as two different conventions, of *1961 and 1963, are being mixed-up* to protect Raymond Davis.
International law expert Ahmar Bilal Sufi said that both conventions are entirely different, *one dealing with immunity to diplomatic staff while the other deals with consular staff*.

*The Vienna Convention on Consulate relations 1963, in its article 41 clearly states that in case of grave crimes like murder there is no immunity*, he said.

Meanwhile the political leadership, across the divide, has been unanimous in their demand for a court trial of the accused.
President Asif Ali Zardari clearly told the delegation of US Congressmen, that It would be prudent to wait for the legal course to be completed.
While Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani denied that the federal government was pressurizing release of the detained American. He said, Neither we are under pressure nor we will pressurize any body to release him.

*He said no one is above the law ... we will respect the law of the land.*

Similar views were stated by the Interior Minister Rehman Malik who said he would be dealt with in accordance with law of the land.
Law will take its course and no favor will be done with the accused, he told the National Assembly.

*A senior Advocate of the Supreme Court said there was no diplomatic immunity, as he was not a diplomat, covered under the Vienna Convention, and committed a crime not done during his official duties.
*According to a report by the American Broadcasting Corporation, Raymond Davis works for Hyperion Protective Consultants, a Florida based company, *specialising in security and his diplomatic status seems dubious.*

The US embassy maintained that the diplomat acted in self-defense when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles ... had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm.
The embassy also claimed that the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area.
For the families of those killed the US embassy said We regret that this incident resulted in loss of life.
According to analyst Zahid Hussain, the matter was now in public domain and *no more between the two countries*.
He said the issue of immunity, and whether Davis shot the boys in self-defence, *was yet to be ascertained*.


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## logic

*US Consulate denies knowledge of SUV in Lahore shooting​*
US Consulate denies knowledge of SUV in Lahore shooting &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## American Eagle

Here is the Police Report naming the two Pakistani doctors whose money and cell phone were stolen by the two robbers. It is time to wait for the implementation of Diplomatic Immunity and get past false attempts to misdescribe a failed armed robbery.

Both the guns, two, recovered one each from the robbers, unlicensed firearms, and the cell phones stolen from the two Pakistani gentlemen are evidence against the two robbers. The cell phones are in fact found to be those of the two doctors the two robbers had just "stuck up" before their failed stick up attempt on American Diplomat Raymond Allen Davis.




> Lytton Road military pronounced they had perceived dual complaints opposite Faizan & Faheem for attempted robberies upon Friday. They pronounced the complainants were Doctor Mudassar & Sheharyar, who pronounced Faizan & Faheem had snatched their mobile phones & money at gun indicate from Mozang & LOS areas, respectively, in between 1:15pm & 1:30pm upon Friday. Both complainants claimed which they did not surprise the military at the time of the incidents since they were panicked.
> 
> They pronounced which they identified the &#8220;robbers&#8221; after saying them upon TV. However, Faizan & Faheem&#8217;s brothers deserted the allegations leveled by the complainants. Faizan&#8217;s hermit pronounced military was conspiring to assist the American, alleging which his hermit was carrying the pistol&#8217;s looseness in his pocket, which military had taken in to control usually to infer which the arms was unlicenced.
> 
> Faheem&#8217;s hermit pronounced the usually probability to save the American was to acknowledgement his hermit a pirate & military was doing all to assist the American. On the alternative palm the family groups of Faizan Haider & Faheem Shamshad, the dual boys killed by Davis, claimed which the military was dire them to repel the cases. The military have beefed up confidence in & around the US Consulate in sequence to forestall any unfavourable incident.



Time to implement Diplomatic Immunity and to now honestly and openly once and for all admit the two robbers were bandits the same day in Lahore, once against two Pakistani gentlemen who are of record in this posting and once when they tried but failed to stick up Mr. Raymond Allen Davis, who is a US Diplomat with Diplomatic Immunity now admitted by the Government of Pakistan.


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## logic

*Pakistan seeks terror charges for US Embassy Diplomat​*















Pakistan seeks terror charges for US Embassy Diplomat | Demotix.com

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## logic

*Pakistan relatives seek terror charges for U.S. man​*
Pakistan relatives seek terror charges for U.S. man


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## fida jan

US stink is being smeeled all over world and esp egypt and pakistan


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## American Eagle

> Lytton Road police said they had received two complaints against Faizan & Faheem for attempted robberies on Friday. They said the complainants were Doctor Mudassar & Sheharyar, who said Faizan & Faheem had snatched their mobile phones & cash at gun point from Mozang & LOS areas, respectively, between 1:15pm & 1:30pm on Friday. Both complainants claimed that they did not inform the police at the time of the incidents because they were panicked.
> 
> They said that they identified the &#8220;robbers&#8221; after seeing them on TV.



So now we resort to cartoons, facemasks in the street in defiance of the hard fact that the two robbers, Faizan and Faheem, were same day before trying to stick up Mr. Davis robbers of Doctor Mudassar and Sheharyar in same area of Lahore.The robbers were found to be carrying and seen waving about two illegal pistols, as well as found to have on their persons the stolen two cell phones and money of Mudassar and Sheharyar.


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## JonAsad

This picture says it all--

Raymond Davis: In your face Pakistanis, what can you do about it.

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## SpArK

Glorious Resolve said:


> This picture says it all--
> 
> Remond Davis: In your face Pakistanis, what can you do about it.



Mask of the "*american* movie"--- _Scary movie_"

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> So now we resort to cartoons, facemasks in the street in defiance of the hard fact that the two robbers, Faizan and Faheem, were same day before trying to stick up Mr. Davis robbers of Doctor Mudassar and Sheharyar in same area of Lahore.The robbers were found to be carrying and seen waving about two illegal pistols, as well as found to have on their persons the stolen two cell phones and money of Mudassar and Sheharyar.


Lytton Road Police should present some the recorded police complaint against Faheem, no criminal record exists against him, no complaint.

Against Faizan, only a gun was found on him.

Conveniently no police case was filed against them before the Davis incident...

---------- Post added at 07:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------




SpArK said:


> Mask of the "*american* movie"--- _Scary movie_"


Actually, Scream.

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## Awesome

Glorious Resolve said:


> If found guilty, we can ask the Americans to waiver his diplomatic immunity, what are the chances of that happening?


If he was sent to execute Faheem and Faizan, especially given the fact that eye witnesses say he chased after them and the autopsy says most of the bullets were fired on the victims' backs, then it was probably sanctioned by the US government and they won't waiver the immunity.

Although Pakistan should reduce the immune staff down to only the upper echelons of the Ambassadorial staff, preferably fat old men, who won't probably be rambo incarnates.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> The official line will be "due diligence for a sensitive matter". The behind the scenes story is not for public consumption, least of all in this thread.
> 
> The next few moves will end the game soon enough.


The thing is, how did the information about his business visa leak out before and nobody was denying it till today? Now Malik suddenly says its not a business visa but a diplomatic one?

Why is Pak government granting such visas to IT technicians? If nothing else we should use this opportunity to flush and expose out the US loyalists

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## Awesome

The best thing is, he's under Punjab Government control and not the federal government's. Lets see who has more balls to face up to the US.

I've heard the families of the victims have been offered US visas... Wonder if that's true.

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## Awesome

Pakistan shooting: Pakistan court bars release of U.S. Consulate official in shooting - latimes.com



> The decision to keep Raymond Davis in custody comes despite U.S. claims that the consulate official has diplomatic immunity. The case puts the Pakistani government between anti-American sentiment at home and pressure from Washington, a major supplier of aid.
> 
> Reporting from Islamabad, Pakistan &#8212;
> A Pakistani judge Tuesday barred authorities from releasing an American Consulate official accused of double murder despite the U.S. government's insistence that diplomatic immunity shields him from prosecution.
> 
> Five days after Raymond Davis shot to death two Pakistani men in the eastern city of Lahore in what he said was self-defense, authorities here showed no signs of bowing to demands from the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad that the 36-year-old be freed because he is a diplomat and therefore cannot be tried on criminal charges.
> 
> Lahore *High Court Chief Justice Ijaz Chaudhry*'s ruling preventing Davis from being handed over to U.S. authorities comes as domestic pressure builds on the government to put Davis on trial. The case has stoked the already intense anti-American sentiment that pervades Pakistani society, and has been portrayed by many in the Pakistani news media as an illustration of U.S. arrogance.
> The emotional uproar the shooting created has forced President Asif Ali Zardari's government into a corner. Zardari risks a massive popular backlash if he frees Davis under pressure from the United States, a major supplier of aid to Pakistan.
> 
> So far, Zardari and the ruling Pakistan People's Party have played it safe. The president told a U.S. congressional delegation Monday that the best tack would be to let the courts decide Davis' fate.
> 
> In his ruling, *Chaudhry said the government would have 15 days to take a position on whether Davis was protected by diplomatic immunity, though he added that he would ultimately decide whether immunity applied.*
> 
> "It's an extremely delicate situation for the government," said Hasan Askari Rizvi, a Lahore-based security analyst. "If Zardari lets [Davis] go, then he faces a lot of criticism &#8230; and the government would be completely isolated from the political domain. But prosecuting him creates problems with Pakistan's relations with the U.S. So in both situations, the government is in trouble."
> 
> The events leading up to the shooting Thursday remain hotly disputed. Davis told police he had just withdrawn money from a bank in Lahore and was stopped at a traffic-choked intersection when two men on a motorcycle and armed with handguns approached. He said he thought the men planned to rob him and that when one of them pointed a gun, he fired several times. One of the men died at the scene and the other died at a hospital.
> 
> A Toyota Land Cruiser carrying U.S. Consulate officials summoned to the scene by Davis went the wrong way on a one-way street and struck a man on a motorcycle, killing him, authorities said. Police say the consulate has yet to hand over the driver of that vehicle.
> 
> The U.S. government has not released the name of the arrested American, but Pakistani authorities have publicized his passport, which identifies him as Davis.
> 
> The embassy maintains that the official is protected by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which accords immunity to all diplomats. Embassy officials say he is a member of the U.S. mission's technical and administrative staff.
> 
> Davis' exact duties remain unclear, and the *embassy has not clarified what his position is.*
> 
> It also has not said why he was carrying a firearm. Under Pakistani law, officials with embassies and foreign missions can possess such weapons only if they obtain permission from the Pakistani Foreign Office.
> 
> The issue of American diplomats and security officials traveling through the country while carrying firearms has been controversial



It's on...

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## American Eagle

> Asim Aquil;1457469]Lytton Road Police should present some the recorded police complaint against Faheem,



Please read the entire posting I put up from the Paksitani media and you will find the Police complaint against the two robbers same day, short time before their failed stick up of Mr. Davis, by two Pakistani gentlement, whose cell phones and money were stolen and then found on the person of the two robbers who had failed to then successfully rob Mr. Davis. All this false information is an attempt to find fault when the fault lies with armed robbers, both found armed, both found with stolen property, both named in a police complaint by the two Pakistani gentlemen they did successfully rob a short time before they went after Mr. Davis.

Where is the pity for young Pakistani suicide terrorist bombers used the day before there in Lahore to murder 35 innocent Pakistanis, men, women and children, wounding 180 more Paksitanis? These two were robbers, criminals. One successful robbery on record now, one failed and the last attempted robbery on record now. Perhaps more which Police investigation can yet turn up.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> The thing is, how did the information about his business visa leak out before and nobody was denying it till today? Now Malik suddenly says its not a business visa but a diplomatic one?
> 
> Why is Pak government granting such visas to IT technicians? If nothing else we should use this opportunity to flush and expose out the US loyalists



I agree with you that there is much that is rotten here, but now is not the time and place to open up that can of worms.

That improvement will come later I am sure.

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## Awesome

If they were seasoned criminals as it has been alleged so many times by you and various others supporting Davis, then there should have been some more cases and reports against them...

They didn't just become criminals and went on a robbing spree and then ended dying in the most controversial case of the decade in Pakistan. These are the sort of inconsistencies that when raised Americans either answer with a no-comment or start quoting the Vienna conventions.

It sucks but the situation for him is that his innocence has to be established rather than guilt since he is being viewed as an enemy of the state, people don't care about the Vienna Conventions. The US embassy is giving all the statements and comments that make him look more and more like a spy.

After Egypt, Jordan and Yemen's governments surrendering to pressure, the Pak government just cannot risk the same won't happen in Pakistan when push comes to shove.

Whoever he is, the US must allow for the full judicial process to take place.

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## Awesome

ajtr said:


>


If the other guy's Zardari, who is the bee-hive headed man?

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## RescueRanger

Asim Aquil said:


> If the other guy's Zardari, who is the bee-hive headed man?



Joe Public perhaps.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

logic said:


> *Pakistan seeks terror charges for US Embassy Diplomat​*



So these are all Islamists I guess esp. considering they mention Aafia's name.


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## Awesome

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> So these are all Islamists I guess esp. considering they mention Aafia's name.


Aafia's family has already refused to ask for an exchange, since they say there is no comparison and can't do that to the families of the victims

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## Awesome

Fahim-shamshad | Geo News Blog




> LAHORE: Geo News has received the detailed post mortem report of two deceased men, allegedly killed by US citizen David Raymond as later opened fire on them near Abid market at Mazang Chowk. According to the report, deceased received nine bullets altogether out of which one bullet struck the each deceased from the front. Doctors from King Edward University conducted post-mortem of Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad. Report...



I wonder why Davis found the need to empty out 9 bullets? After he shot them once in the front, he went on to shoot them again in the back. Execution style?

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## Awesome

I'm wondering how come the US media hasn't been more aggressive in getting Davis freed?


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Fahim-shamshad | Geo News Blog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why Davis found the need to empty out 9 bullets? After he shot them once in the front, he went on to shoot them again in the back. *Execution style?*




With all due respect, Asim: The bolded part is mere speculation at this point, so I would request you, at least, to refrain from it. I know you are better than this.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm wondering how come the US media hasn't been more aggressive in getting Davis freed?



If you mean Faux News then consider the fact that they probably know the real identity and his line of work. Their coverage could lead to info out there they may not want out there. I am sure State Dept dispatched the instructions to them.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm wondering how come the US media hasn't been more aggressive in getting Davis freed?



Ehhhhh, because it is trying to wait for the result of the investigations before whipping up a rabid fury?


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> With all due respect, Asim: The bolded part is mere speculation at this point, so I would request you, at least, to refrain from it. I know you are better than this.


Hence the question mark, Vcheng, I'm acknowledging that its speculation.

For the most part, technically he should be innocent until proven guilty. The problem is such concepts are only applied in a court of law, and right now the fight is on whether or not to take this to trial.

I personally think he deserve a free and fair trial in the Pakistani court, but the issues of immunity might prevent that from happening, hence I'm doing my bit to raise enough questions and point out the uncertainty of his innocence given that he may be an enemy of the state - that a trial is deemed necessary.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Ehhhhh, because it is trying to wait for the result of the investigations before whipping up a rabid fury?


They have been more vigilant about about saas-bahu violence in Pakistan and suddenly they've adopted such great self-restraint?

The media should inform the people with all the information it digs up.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

VCheng said:


> before whipping up a rabid fury?



Oh puhleez..................... 
These are the news outlet that reported news provided by Mossad to build a case against Iraq trying to build a connection between Saddam and AQ. Dont take my word, rewind your Tivo to 2001-2002.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> They have been more vigilant about about saas-bahu violence in Pakistan and suddenly they've adopted such great self-restraint?
> 
> The media should inform the people with all the information it digs up.



This whole issue has many layers of complexity, and many orchestras, my dear Sir. 

Calming troubled waters is only one of the steps needed to resolve this amicably. The last thing either side needs is a Pyrrhic victory.


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## ashok321

American pressure is on, they are ratcheting things up in thier favour:



> WASHINGTON  Lt. Gen. David Rodriguez, the No. 2 commander in Afghanistan, said Tuesday that the United States and NATO could succeed in the war even if Pakistan refused to shut down a lawless frontier sanctuary that militants use for staging attacks on forces across the border in Afghanistan.



They got a plan.....


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

ashok321 said:


> They got a plan.....



Dont believe everything you read.
Regardless, some wars simply cannot be won.


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## ashok321

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Dont believe everything you read.
> Regardless, some wars simply cannot be won.




US has invested lot of arms n ammo (if not cojones) in this protracted war. Win or loose, every war has its price.

And now they want to finish this unfinished bsns even without Pakistan.

But this is Off Topic here...


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## American Eagle

Playing word games does not change the fact that two robbers completed one and failed to complete a second robbery all in the same day in Lahore.

Two pistols and two stolen cell phones, plus a large amount of cash recovered by police.

You can't try a case on PDF or in the media there, try though you might.

Since you want the facts look at the courts evidence when it is made public and stop making up garbage to defend two identifable crooks whose untimely death they brought on themselves.

Pakistan is facing hard times in many respects. But so are all nations in terms of the economic depression, to which there are no quick fixes. Free enterprise remains the best economic process but greed has harmed it's image at present. Let's join together to fix many problems and stop looking for scape goats for robbers, terrorists, and such.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

ashok321 said:


> US has invested lot of arms n ammo (if not cojones) in this protracted war. Win or loose, every war has its price.
> 
> And now they want to finish this unfinished bsns even without Pakistan.
> 
> But this is Off Topic here...



They know better........................


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Playing word games does not change the fact that two robbers completed one and failed to complete a second robbery all in the same day in Lahore.


That, like Raymond Davis's crime still has to be proved in court.



> Two pistols and two stolen cell phones, plus a large amount of cash recovered by police.


Guns, binoculars and face masks have been recovered off Davis as well. So?



> You can't try a case on PDF or in the media there, try though you might.


Exactly but LHC or SC are a good place as any.



> Since you want the facts look at the courts evidence when it is made public and stop making up garbage to defend to identifably crooks whose untimely death they brought on themselves.


Fine courts it is then.

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## American Eagle

There is no police statement of any evidence other than Diplomat Raymond Davis had a gun with him. 

Perhaps he wears glasses, so maybe glasses are a hidden threat to public health, safety or welfare?

Or maybe he has a pocket comb which might somehow be a secret weapon.

Worse still he might have a cell phone, as many people do worldwide, so he is a "communications" affecinado, which makes him a terrible user of a cell phone. When did you stop using your cell phone?

The list of absurdities here is endless.

Diplomatic Immunity is now admitted by the GOP. Next is for GOP to obey Internation Law and Treaties and release Davis to the US Ambassador for removal from Pakistan as a Diplomatically Immune person who should be allowed to leave the country without hinderance or delay.


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## Thomas

Asim Aquil said:


> They have been more vigilant about about saas-bahu violence in Pakistan and suddenly they've adopted such great self-restraint?
> 
> *The media should inform the people with all the information it digs up*.



I assume you mean as long as that information is verified from credible sources. One problem with media is there is strong competition between each other. They are always trying to out scoop the other with so called exclusive information. Many times that information is incorrect but that doesn't mean the public knows that. They believe it to be true and react to it accordingly. There has been numerous instances of this in regards to this case. 

Even the U.S. and other countries fall prey to this at times when reporting developing stories.


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## VelocuR

VCheng said:


> ........................



VCheng, *He is Mr.Davis' lawyer here* in murder case. Please elaborate more on what you defend. Sure we will wait after court decision. 

Thank you, lawyer here!


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## VCheng

RaptorRX707 said:


> VCheng, *He is Mr.Davis' lawyer here* in murder case. Please elaborate more on what you defend. Sure we will wait after court decision.
> 
> Thank you, lawyer here!



Thank you, but no thank you, I am defending *no-one*, merely alien concepts like sanity, fairness, due process and the truth.

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## Awesome

Thomas said:


> I assume you mean as long as that information is verified from credible sources. One problem with media is there is strong competition between each other. They are always trying to out scoop the other with so called exclusive information. Many times that information is incorrect but that doesn't mean the public knows that. They believe it to be true and react to it accordingly. There has been numerous instances of this in regards to this case.
> 
> Even the U.S. and other countries fall prey to this at times when reporting developing stories.


While that is true that the "Breaking News" phenomenon has really killed the spirit of journalism, but even so, the people should be wise enough to distinguish fact from fiction.

As long as the media is giving out news, and opinions of news makers (and citing them as their opinions only) then they have done their job properly. However if they do something like "So many people believe xyz, so abc must be true". Thats where it gets yellow.

Barring Op-Eds the leading media outlets are still using words like "allegedly" and "suspect". The media-cry that is being associated to them is mostly a reflection of how the situation on the ground is in Pakistan.

Think about it, there are so many things being speculated and if only one of them is true, it will change Pakistan completely.

1) America may be involved in terrorism in Pakistan
2) America may be involved in assassinations in Pakistan
3) Our government may be working in cahoots with America against Pakistan

These are things that people in Pakistan want answers to. By taking him off, through immunity, you'd be cementing the suspicions further. If he's an IT technician then there should be plenty of evidence. If he's on a business visa, he must've conducted some business (hopefully IT related), if he was at the ATM, he must've been captured by the ATM spy cam (no comment has been made on the ATM cam picture), if he was carrying weapons he must've been authorized to do so by someone in the Embassy

The case can be fought to defend him easily. Nothing has been concocted up against him. Media is following one lead after the other as it should.

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## logic

*Name of Raymond Davis put on ECL, says Rehman Malik​*
Name of Raymond Davis put on ECL, says Rehman Malik


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## alibaz

*Court decision in Raymond case to be accepted: PM*

To another point of leader of the opposition regarding the US citizen Raymond Davis, the Prime Minister said the whole world has focused upon Pakistani nations reaction and wants to know whether it would be a mature move or not.

He said Pakistan is a sovereign and responsible state, there is independent judiciary, media and a vibrant civil society, and the government has no intention to take steps which could bring a bad name to the country.

He said that Raymond Davis matter is in the court and it will ask for his relevant record. The government respects the judiciary and whatever decision it gives would be accepted in letter and spirit.

Court decision in Raymond case to be accepted: PM - GEO.tv


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## DV RULES

*Geo News gets post mortem report of Lahore victims*



LAHORE: Geo News has received the detailed post mortem report of two deceased men, allegedly killed by US citizen David Raymond as later opened fire on them near Abid market at Mazang Chowk.

According to the report, deceased received nine bullets altogether out of which one bullet struck the each deceased from the front.

Doctors from King Edward University conducted post-mortem of Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad.

Report said that Fahim Shamshad, whose post mortem was conducted after 22 hours and 30 minutes of his death, got killed immediately after receiving bullets at 2:45 pm at Lytton road.

It said that there were four wound marks of each bullet on Fahim's body. First bullet hit his head at right side from the back, second at his back, third on left side of his waist while fourth bullet hit its left wrist which passed after touching his left leg.

According to the post mortem of Faizan Haider, he succumbed to injuries in hospital after surviving 1 hour and 35 minutes after the incident. His post mortem was conducted after passing 19 hours and 55 minutes of his death.

Faizan got five wound marks on his body out of which five were of bullets and one was of operation. He received first bullet from the front at left side of his chest, second passed through his left hip, third at left side waist from the back while two bullets passed after touching his left leg.

Geo News gets post mortem report of Lahore victims


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## logic

*Diplomats can be tried for &#8216;grave&#8217; criminal acts despite immunity, say Pak experts​*
Diplomats can be tried for &#8216;grave&#8217; criminal acts despite immunity, say Pak experts | TruthDive


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## DV RULES

What would be internal security when Head of state permit CIA officials travel freely in Pakistan? *Result is Davis Case*.


Jang Multimedia



*"Raymond (Steven in actual) runs security company in Florida" *ABC News

http://ejang.jang.com.pk/2-2-2011/Karachi/pic.asp?picname=1047.gif

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## American Eagle

This guy is clearly a murderer. Untrue statement .



> *Nope. The two robbers failed to complete robbing him. He defended himself from their armed stick up failed attempt.
> 
> Further, same two robbers held up two Paksiani men who filed police report and identified their robbers as the same two men. All over the Pakistani news, not a secret.
> 
> Their stolen cell phones were recovered from the two slain robbers person, together with two pistols, one each, from the robbers which weapons were illegally not registered and are crime evidence as well.*


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## American Eagle

> Asim Aquil;1457943]While that is true that the "Breaking News" phenomenon has really killed the spirit of journalism, but even so, the people should be wise enough to distinguish fact from fiction.



NOTE FROM AMERICAN EAGLE: Apart from the annual rise of raw crimes in Lahore from June 2009 to June 2010, there are of course the growing number of terrorist suicide bombings durng recent days and over the past year.

One suicide bombing was of a police graduating class near the Lahore offices of THE FRONTIER POST which now operates a branch there. I guess the terrorists think killing off the police before they can even get on the beat increases the degree of anarchy which terrorism thrives on.

As I have mentioned several times in recent days armed robbery has become a major funding source for al Qaida and the violent Taliban groupings.

Then you have two men robbed by the same two crooks who then failed in their robbery attempt on Raymond Davis who of course the GOP belatedly admits does have Diplomatic Immunity.

In that setting surely the victum is now being blamed by the Lahore public for the type of criminal actions the two unsuccessful robbers best epitomized. This is disgraceful and people should stop and think who is the enermy of law and order and national and local security, for the enemy is not the USA. Quite the opposite. 



> www.nation.com.pk/.../Regional/Lahore/03-Jul-2010/Crime-rate-goes-up-by-15pc
> 
> 
> Thursday, February 03, 2011
> 
> Crime rate goes up by 15pc
> 
> By: Jam Sajjad Hussain | Published: July 03, 2010
> 
> LAHORE - The performance of Lahore police can be imagined from the fact that crime ratio is increasing unabated which has reached to the extent of 15 per cent in June as compared to May. The comparative study revealed the crime rate is steadily rising which reflects the negligence of the police as well as the civil administration and political government led by PML-N.
> 
> The crimes of heinous nature sharply increased causing colossal loss to the life and the property of the citizens. It has also created a sense of insecurity and fear among the people to consider themselves unsafe even in their residences.
> 
> Despite the repeated assurances of safety to the life and property of the citizens by CCPO Aslam Tareen, former SSP (Operations) Ch Shafiq and SSP (Investigation) Zulfiqar Hameed, at least 15 per cent crime ratio has shoot up during the month of June compared to May. Notwithstanding the presence of almost 30,000 policemen in the City, according to police records, citizens were deprived of Rs 208 million in cash, 124 cars and 173 bikes were also lifted from various parts of the City in June. Two people were gunned down over offering resistance while seven injured during house robberies, The Nation has learnt. According to the data collected by this scribe, Rs 180 million were looted from the citizens in May and Rs 208 million in June. The FIRs registered in different police stations revealed the dacoits were set free for committing crimes in the City.


----------



## ajtr

*An American in Pakistan​*

*If there is one truth that the Raymond Davis affair has driven home it is that in Pakistan, sovereignty is a sham. **The entire episode stinks of the impunity with which the US does as it pleases on our soil.* That Raymond Davis shot two Pakistani youths, Faizan and Faheem  whether they were dacoits or not has yet to be proved  in an act that he terms as self-defence was shocking enough, but for the US to insist that the man be set free because of claimed diplomatic immunity flies in the face of the facts, justice and fair play. *Reports are proliferating that Mr Davis was not just any routine embassy or consul official. Raymond Davis has been called many things. Washington calls him a diplomat but there are reports suggesting that he was a private security officer. News reports have also shown evidence to suggest that he was not travelling with a diplomatic visa, that he had been booted out of Pakistan a year ago because of dubious activities and there were even some claims from Washington that his name was not Raymond Davis at all! That means, at the very least, that he had entered and left Pakistan repeatedly during the past year on a false passport. Now, under this cloak of ambiguity, lies a challenge to Pakistans much touted sovereignty.*

The reports mentioned above suggest that *Raymond Davis was an undercover operative and the circumstances surrounding the shooting show that he was also a trained one.* After shooting the two boys with sniper-like precision, Davis asked for a back-up car, which then proceeded to kill a third man in a hit-and-run accident. The whereabouts of the driver and passengers of that car remain unknown and US embassy officials refuse to hand over any information or the vehicle. Washington is issuing statements almost daily about how Raymond Daviss actions are covered by diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention, and that they expect him to be released and handed over to them. Meanwhile the Lahore High Court (LHC) has restrained the government from handing him over to the US and has directed that Daviss name be put on the Exit Control List. This move by the LHC ought to silence the opposition, who were creating quite a ruckus about the likelihood of a secret deal between the government and the US to hand Davis over. Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira has said that the case will proceed according to the law of the land. The resignation of Punjab Deputy Prosecutor General Rana Bakhtiar became inevitable after he was removed from the sensitive case for statements to the media. 

Diplomats, particularly those from the US, have been riding roughshod over our laws and citizens for a long time now. From traffic accidents, parking misdemeanours and blatant disregard for the lives and safety of the average Pakistani, embassy officials have been implicated in some rather messy matters but have been let off the hook simply because the immunity provided to them, literally, saved their skins. Such antics have served to make a mockery of the dignity, honour and respect that the host country deserves. Now that Raymond Davis, whether acting in self-defence or not, has got the blood of two Pakistani citizens on his hands, it has become clear how foreign diplomats and embassy staff view us. This murder has given the many anti-democratic forces and anti-US elements out there a reason to come out onto the streets and berate the government for not protecting Pakistans sovereignty. It is not too late for the government to turn over a new leaf and act in defence of the independence and sovereignty of Pakistan. As seems increasingly likely, if investigations indicate that Mr Davis does not have diplomatic cover, he must be tried and convicted according to the laws of Pakistan. This state-endorsed impunity that has emboldened US officials to commit daylight murder must end. *


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## RescueRanger

LAHORE: The court has extended the physical remand of Raymond Davis till 11th February. He was produced before court today after the expiry of 6-day remand, Geo News reported.

While, on charges of keeping illegal weapon, the court granted 14-day judicial remand.

TheNews.com.pk

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

*RECENT ANALYSIS*​
- - The worst scenario among all is the cooperation between the Punjab Government and the Foreign Office, as uptil now our foreign office cannot confirm if he is a diplomat or not.

- - The point to consider is that Raymond had things (wireless, GPS etc) that makes him look like an agent of an intelligence agency or a security agency sent to Pakistan on a mission.

- - The most suspicious behavior from Raymond is that he took pictures of the men after he killed them.

- - According to many analysts his name is not *RAYMOND DAVIS*


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## DV RULES

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> *RECENT ANALYSIS*​
> - - The worst scenario among all is the cooperation between the Punjab Government and the Foreign Office, as uptil now our foreign office cannot confirm if he is a diplomat or not.
> 
> - - The point to consider is that Raymond had things (wireless, GPS etc) that makes him look like an agent of an intelligence agency or a security agency sent to Pakistan on a mission.
> 
> - - The most suspicious behavior from Raymond is that he took pictures of the men after he killed them.
> 
> - - According to many analysts his name is not *RAYMOND DAVIS*




Foreign office get into reluctance because of irresponsible statements issued by Interior Minister Mr. Rehman Malik, once he declared visa as official and then Diplomatic. His strange appearance many time devalued government's position on international level.
May be time to rest on chair?!

Davis's real name *Steven*. _As stated in some sources._


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## RescueRanger

Rehman "Blackwater" Malik is a total retard, every time i see him on TV i cover my face with my palm. Seriously this guy was a fool when he was in the FIA, what makes people think he is going to be any better as top brass in Min. Interior?

What makes me laugh is that he acts like a political ping pong ball. Saying things like: 

1) He has a diplomatic Passport
2) He has a Diplomatic Passport but no Diplomatic Visa
3) His Diplomatic status is undecided as yet? Lolwhat
4) He has a non diplomatic Business Visa...

So what is it going to be Mr. Malik, is he a diplomat or not. Stop making our government look bad you fool.


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## SpArK

Judge: U.S. diplomat to be held for eight more days in Pakistan - CNN.com

His vacation extended to a week.. after that




... home sweet home..


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## Bratva

An excellent analysis by Javaid Choudhary, Must Read, He painted the real picture of what will happen to Davis Case, How he will be freed, due to loop holes in our Justice system,

Daily Express News Story


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## logic

*Pak court extends American''s remand over Lahore shooting​*
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/pak-court-extends-americans-remand-over-lahore-shooting/563839.html


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## American Eagle

Mr. Davis should be freed as the facts prove he both has Diplomati Immunity and that the two who tried to rob him are know by the Police as street robbers with several prior charges, to wit from the Thursday, Feb. 3 KARACHI DAWN:



> On the two Pakistanis, police found two pistols, magazine belts and four mobile phones, at least two of which they believe could have been stolen, an officer said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> The officer described one of them as a street robber &#8220;wanted&#8221; in connection with three or four incidents and the other as his accomplice.



This case has been a fiasco and if not quickly ended with Mr. Davis being freed under his entitled Diplomatic Immunity sorely hurts the image and integrity of facts and honesty of the Government of Pakistan.

Ordinary Pakistani emotions driven by threats of terrorist attack against the general public in Lahore are no basis to overlook the facts which say the two men who tried to stick up Davis are known to officials street robbers, pure and simple.

Condolences are of course due to their parents, regardless of their history of crime, but they were crooks doing one successful and one failed, and final, armed robbery the same day last week.

Let's condole the lose of life but remeber that many youths are dying as terrorist suicide bombers and all such young deaths, whether as criminals or as terrorists are a sad loss in a very poor nation which should offer more hope, education, and opportunities to all youths of all levels of society throughout all of Pakistan.


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## American Eagle

Here is the complete article from the Thursday, Feb. 3, 2011 Karachi DAWN:



> LAHORE: A court on Thursday extended the detention of a US government employee for eight more days pending investigation of a double murder in Lahore.
> 
> The US consular employee, whom Pakistani police have identified as Raymond Davis, was arrested a week ago for shooting dead two motorcyclists in self-defence, fearing that they were about to rob him.
> A third Pakistani was run over and killed by a vehicle from the local US consulate that tried to come to Davis&#8217; assistance.
> 
> Washington is demanding the man&#8217;s release, saying he has diplomatic immunity, as tempers run high in Pakistan over the incident.
> 
> &#8220;We produced the American in the court of magistrate Zafar Iqbal, who extended his remand in police custody to another eight days,&#8221; public prosecutor Abdul Samad told AFP.
> 
> Police have registered a case of double murder against the American and Samad said he would be produced next in court on February 11.
> 
> The deaths sparked huge controversy in Pakistan, where anti-Americanism runs high, fuelled by the government&#8217;s unpopular alliance with Washington, the war in Afghanistan and US missile attacks in the northwest.
> 
> Washington insists the American is entitled to diplomatic immunity and is therefore being held unlawfully by the Pakistani authorities.
> 
> It also supports his version of events that he was confronted by two armed men on motorcycles whom he had reason to believe meant him bodily harm, meaning that he acted in legitimate self-defence.Another court blocked any move to extradite him. Relatives of the three Pakistanis who died in the incident on January 27 are to demonstrate outside the US consulate in Lahore later Thursday.
> 
> But Interior Minister Rehman Malik has now confirmed the American has a diplomatic passport and cautioned the media against &#8220;hyped&#8221; coverage that does not represent the facts, opening the doors to his possible release.
> 
> &#8220;The file is with me and whenever the high court needs this file, the file will be presented to the court.
> 
> &#8220;Don&#8217;t do misreporting based on presumptions; let&#8217;s not hype (the issue). We will provide whatever information the court requires,&#8221; he told reporters.
> Davis was brought to court 30 minutes ahead of the scheduled hearing under tight security with the media kept at a distance.
> 
> Armed police cordoned off the court and the American arrived in an armoured personnel carrier, an AFP reporter said.
> 
> Relatives of the victims have demanded that the government try Davis under terror charges. Activists and family members on Wednesday shouted &#8220;hang Davis&#8221; at the scene of the shooting.
> 
> Questions remain unanswered about why the American was driving around Lahore with a gun and US officials have refused to confirm his name.
> 
> Police told AFP they recovered a Glock pistol, four loaded magazines, a GPS navigation system and small telescope from his car.
> 
> On the two Pakistanis, police found two pistols, magazine belts and four mobile phones, at least two of which they believe could have been stolen, an officer said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> The officer described one of them as a street robber &#8220;wanted&#8221; in connection with three or four incidents and the other as his accomplice.[/quote]

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## American Eagle

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> *RECENT ANALYSIS*​
> Your opinions are way off base, you must be looking to write a James Bond novel.
> 
> - Many of us, me included, use a GPS to know how to get from point A to Point B in places such as Lahore where we do not know our way around the tangle of roads, round abouts and such.
> 
> - Everyone the world over uses a cell phone, this is really an absurd point you don't make here.
> 
> Time to read the facts from the GOP and the court, when it is ready, and stop this non-sensical hyping trying to create mob hysteria when at issue are two known robbers whose last robbery attempt failed them.
> 
> You yourself by your writings claim to represent Paksitani public opinion and if so you are hurting the image of all Pakistan in the eyes of the world. Pakistanis expect fair and equal treatment when traveling the whole world, why should Mr. Davis, who additionally has diplomatic immunity, expect or be given less, considering he just survived an armed stick up attempt on his person in Lahore.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

American Eagle said:


> SANABIL MIRZA said:
> 
> 
> 
> *RECENT ANALYSIS*​
> Your opinions are way off base, you must be looking to write a James Bond novel.
> 
> - Many of us, me included, use a GPS to know how to get from point A to Point B in places such as Lahore where we do not know our way around the tangle of roads, round abouts and such.
> 
> - Everyone the world over uses a cell phone, this is really an absurd point you don't make here.
> 
> Time to read the facts from the GOP and the court, when it is ready, and stop this non-sensical hyping trying to create mob hysteria when at issue are two known robbers whose last robbery attempt failed them.
> 
> You yourself by your writings claim to represent Paksitani public opinion and if so you are hurting the image of all Pakistan in the eyes of the world. Pakistanis expect fair and equal treatment when traveling the whole world, why should Mr. Davis, who additionally has diplomatic immunity, expect or be given less, considering he just survived an armed stick up attempt on his person in Lahore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THis is not my own view, all this is on our news channels. . .
> 
> 
> As far as the GPS issue is concerned, in US people do carry GPS with them but it is not common in Pakistan. Above all GPS is not useful in Lahore, believe me; it cannot show the small streets of Lahore. .
Click to expand...


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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> SANABIL MIRZA said:
> 
> 
> 
> *RECENT ANALYSIS*​
> Your opinions are way off base, you must be looking to write a James Bond novel.
> 
> - Many of us, me included, use a GPS to know how to get from point A to Point B in places such as Lahore where we do not know our way around the tangle of roads, round abouts and such.
> 
> - Everyone the world over uses a cell phone, this is really an absurd point you don't make here.
> 
> Time to read the facts from the GOP and the court, when it is ready, and stop this non-sensical hyping trying to create mob hysteria when at issue are two known robbers whose last robbery attempt failed them.
> 
> You yourself by your writings claim to represent Paksitani public opinion and if so you are hurting the image of all Pakistan in the eyes of the world. Pakistanis expect fair and equal treatment when traveling the whole world, why should Mr. Davis, who additionally has diplomatic immunity, expect or be given less, considering he just survived an armed stick up attempt on his person in Lahore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Davis was riding a car with fake number plates if he is a diplomate? Why davis try to run away from scene if he was a innocent?
> 
> If they were robbers, and were trying to rob them, Davis Bullets should have penetrated them from front? that's a strange robbery that robbers got shot from back, before they try to Rob Davis?
> 
> There too many why's, when we get the answers of these Why's, then we will release Davis!
Click to expand...


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## VCheng

mafiya said:


> Why Davis was riding a car with fake number plates if he is a diplomate? Why davis try to run away from scene if he was a innocent?



The fake plates are the responsibility of the registered owner of the car, not Mr. Davis. One would have to prove that he KNOWINGLY had fake plates before making anything out of it. Even then, it is a civil infraction, and immunity applies.

The risk of instant "mob justice" must be very high in this instance. After all, have we forgotten the Sialkot incident?


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## GOD OF WAR

Seems like the corrupt US selected regime is serving their masters well. probably also received a big bamboo where the sun don't shine

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## The HBS Guy

*This thread ought to be made a sticky. *


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## Thomas

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> THis is not my own view, all this is on our news channels. . .
> 
> 
> As far as the GPS issue is concerned, in US people do carry GPS with them but it is not common in Pakistan. Above all GPS is not useful in Lahore, believe me; it cannot show the small streets of Lahore. .




you might not have been using the right GPS map service. 

Pakistan's First in-car GPS Navigation and Maps Introduced - ProPakistani


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## Spring Onion

9WANTS TO KNOW
DENVER - The American accused of killing two Pakistani civilians has a home in Highlands Ranch, 9Wants to Know has confirmed. The U.S. State Department is trying to get the man released, saying he has diplomatic immunity.


*Wednesday afternoon, multiple sources confirmed to 9NEWS that Raymond Allen Davis has a home in Highlands Ranch. Davis' security firm has filed paperwork to do business in Colorado.*

Pakistani authorities are currently holding Davis on suspicion of murdering two Pakistani civilians last Thursday in Lahore, Pakistan. The U.S. State Department has spent the last few days trying to secure Davis' release on a belief he has diplomatic immunity and that he was acting in self-defense.

*9Wants to Know has learned that Davis is currently renting a home with his wife in Highlands Ranch. Davis' wife gave 9NEWS a name and number she says she was instructed to give to reporters. The name is that of a CIA spokesperson and the number is in Washington, D.C. Calls to that number were not returned Wednesday.*

Pakistani media is covering the case extensively and multiple, sizeable rallies have been held inside Pakistan calling on the Pakistani government not to release Davis to the American government. One Pakistani newspaper has repeatedly called Davis "an American Rambo."

*A spokesperson for the U.S. State Department refused to confirm the man's identity but said the U.S. government is currently trying to bring the man home.

"We continue to work to secure the release of the individual who we believe is entitled to full diplomatic immunity," Nicole Thompson, spokesperson for the State Department, said. "We are working daily with the Pakistanis on this case."*

Thompson called the shooting "an act of self-defense."

Pakistani and American news articles on Jan. 27 indicated Davis was in a car when a pair of men approached him on motorcycles.

"The American told us that he opened fire in self-defense after one of the men pulled out a pistol," Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tarin told Rueters at the time.

Two men were killed in the incident.

The Pakistani government, despite the requests of the U.S. State Department, has so far decided to hold Davis and appears ready to send the case to trial.

On Wednesday, Pakistani media reported Interior Minister Rehman Malik had informed the country's Upper House of Parliament that the accused would be treated in accordance with the "law of the land."

"Law will take its course and no favor will be done with the accused," Malik reportedly said.

He also added that, as of now, Davis will not be allowed to leave the country.

If you have any more information on this story, you are urged to e-mail 9Wants to Know.

(KUSA-TV © 2011 Multimedia Holdings Corporation)

9NEWS.com | Denver | Colorado's Online News Leader | State Dept.: Highlands Ranch man accused of killing 2 in Pakistan has diplomatic immunity




Read more: Suspect in Pakistan killings has Colorado home - The Denver Post Suspect in Pakistan killings has Colorado home - The Denver Post
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post


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## VCheng

JanaJi: It is only wise to plan a process that is "seen" to be appropriate and to soothe ruffled feathers before the inevitable outcome.


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## Evil Flare

Matter is on Judiciary hands ????


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> JanaJi: It is only wise to plan a process that is "seen" to be appropriate and to soothe ruffled feathers before the inevitable outcome.



thats what our government is doing


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> thats what our government is doing



That should not be any surprise.

Pakistan has a long way to go before its proud people are allowed to raise their heads in the international community because of the rotten deeds of a self-perpetuating few.

_"Tareekh key aiwanoon mein aisa bhi hota he
Lamhoon ney ghalati ki, sadiyon ney saza paye"_

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## RescueRanger

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> American Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> THis is not my own view, all this is on our news channels. . .
> 
> 
> As far as the GPS issue is concerned, in US people do carry GPS with them but it is not common in Pakistan. Above all GPS is not useful in Lahore, believe me; it cannot show the small streets of Lahore. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect My BlackBerry is running an advanced maps module with Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi maps that show great detail. I have a GPS system in my wife's car because she is constantly getting lost (women)
> 
> Maps are available for Garmin Navigator and the Navman for 140$ from:
> Real Time Vehicle Tracking and Navigation in Pakistan|Personal Tracking|Remote Monitoring
Click to expand...

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## ares




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## Areesh

ares said:


> YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat Najam Sethi Ke Sath 2nd Febuary 2011 Part1



And here comes the only sane, intellectual individual out of 180million Pakistanis. Well I am also his fan specially this analysis of Najam Sethi.






Very intellectual and full of sanity.


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## Aslan

@ Areesh

I was watching his show today and I happen to watch the movie snatch last night, and he just reminded me of the dialog when the villain Governor tells one of his chamchas who was constantly kissing his no sun shine zone;

Governor: To his chamcha, " are you a dog"
Chamcha: no boss
Governor: Then why do you have your tongue up my @$$, you need to take that out because thats what dogs do. 

Well Shaty might have been told by his owners the same thing, Chaplusi kam kar yaar, national TV pay ho.


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## pakdefender

The court has extended his remand for another 8 days, and there is no verifiable evidence that he can claim diplomatic immunity.

There are 'threats' being made that he is a diplomat but there is no verifiable evidence , I mean every tom dick and harry who carries a gun cannot be suddenly made into a diplomat.

Among other things in his car , there was also a small telescope , what the hell was that for ? There a serious questions that need to be answered, first and fore most being his presence in the country and what was he doing in Mozzang in the first place ? 

Also I&#8217;m compelled to say that ever since his arrest the bombings and explosions in Pakistan seem to have spiked


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## Thomas

pakdefender said:


> The court has extended his remand for another 8 days, and there is no verifiable evidence that he can claim diplomatic immunity.
> 
> There are 'threats' being made that he is a diplomat but there is no verifiable evidence , I mean every tom dick and harry who carries a gun cannot be suddenly made into a diplomat.
> 
> Among other things in his car , there was also a small telescope , what the hell was that for ? There a serious questions that need to be answered, first and fore most being his presence in the country and what was he doing in Mozzang in the first place ?
> 
> Also I&#8217;m compelled to say that ever since his arrest the bombings and explosions in Pakistan seem to have spiked




Not true, and yet another example of the mis-information being thrown around.

http://arabnews.com/world/article250480.ece

"By AZHAR MASOOD | ARAB NEWS 

Published: Feb 3, 2011 20:17 Updated: Feb 3, 2011 20:17 

ISLAMABAD: *Pakistan&#8217;s Interior Minister Rehman Malik told the National Assembly on Thursday that Raymond Davis, the American national accused of killing two Pakistani boys in Lahore, traveled to Pakistan on a valid diplomatic visa."*


----------



## logic

*Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to Davis: US​*
ISLAMABAD: The United States forcefully presented on Thursday its case for immunity under Geneva Convention for Raymond Davis, the American official accused of double murder in Lahore,* but at the same time admitted that Pakistan`s Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to `administrative and technical staff` of foreign missions based here.*

A diplomatic note was handed over to Foreign Office by the US embassy asking the government to release Davis in accordance with the country`s obligations under international law.

The note said Davis was mentioned, in the request for registration with FO, as non-diplomatic staff only to comply with its regulations *which do not accept `technical and administrative` staff of foreign missions as diplomatic staff at the time of issuance of accreditation cards.*

The latest edition of Foreign Office`s protocol manual (page 18) requires of all foreign missions to designate `administrative and *technical staff` as `non-diplomatic staff`*, even though it appears to be a clear deviation from the Vienna Convention`s Article 37, which clearly states members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission shall enjoy the privileges and immunities.

The embassy complied with MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) instructions, the diplomatic note said, *underscoring that this acknowledgement did not compromise his privileges and immunities under Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations of 1961*.

This declaration did not alter Pakistan`s obligations to honour Mr Davis`s privilege and immunities as an administrative and technical staff member.

The embassy in its first statement on the Lahore incident had also referred to Davis as a consulate staffer and not a diplomat.

Davis had been notified to Pakistani authorities in January last year as having been assigned to the Islamabad mission as a `member of the administrative and technical staff`.Although over a year has passed since he was first notified by the US embassy, he hasn`t been registered as yet because of what Pakistani officials claim as `unresolved queries`. The American embassy, nevertheless, insists it hadn`t received any reply to its notification in respect of Davis`s posting in Pakistan.

Consequently, his status remained undefined. A US embassy official, at a background briefing for Dawn, said the notification by the embassy made Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity and not registration by FO, which he hadn`t been given as yet.

The diplomatic note further asked the Pakistan government to shed its ambiguous position on the status of the American official. The government, apparently because of feared consequences both domestic and bilateral, has so far been *shying away from determining the status of the accused*. Although, government officials in private discussions claim that Davis did not have a diplomatic status, publicly their stance has been that the issue would be decided by courts.

The embassy in its note threw the book at the government and accused it of violating both its international obligations and local laws by keeping Davis detained and not deciding on his status.

It reminded the Pakistan government that its own laws provided the procedure for resolving such contentious issues. Although not said explicitly, it implied that the government needed to first decide for itself whether or not it recognised Davis as a diplomat before courts adjudicated on it.

A reference was made to Pakistan`s Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act of 1972, which states: *If any question arises whether or not any person is entitled to the privilege or immunity under this Act, a certificate issued by or under the authority of the federal government stating any fact relating to the question shall be conclusive evidence of that fact.* And hence the demand that the Foreign Office issue a certificate on his diplomatic status forthwith.

A US diplomat in the background briefing said the US wanted the Pakistan government to decide on the issue one way or the other. Settling it through the media is ludicrous, the official added, referring to the intense media debate.

A certification accepting Davis as a diplomat would naturally end the debate and pave way for his release and return to the US, but if the government decided otherwise, the diplomat suggested the matter would be resolved through bilateral negotiations, but wouldn`t say if that meant using the leverages that Washington had with Islamabad.

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## Thomas

logic said:


> *Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to Davis: US​*
> ISLAMABAD: The United States forcefully presented on Thursday its case for immunity under Geneva Convention for Raymond Davis, the American official accused of double murder in Lahore,* but at the same time admitted that Pakistan`s Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to `administrative and technical staff` of foreign missions based here.*
> 
> A diplomatic note was handed over to Foreign Office by the US embassy asking the government to release Davis in accordance with the country`s obligations under international law.
> 
> The note said Davis was mentioned, in the request for registration with FO, as non-diplomatic staff only to comply with its regulations *which do not accept `technical and administrative` staff of foreign missions as diplomatic staff at the time of issuance of accreditation cards.*
> 
> The latest edition of Foreign Office`s protocol manual (page 18) requires of all foreign missions to designate `administrative and *technical staff` as `non-diplomatic staff`*, even though it appears to be a clear deviation from the Vienna Convention`s Article 37, which clearly states members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission shall enjoy the privileges and immunities.
> 
> The embassy complied with MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) instructions, the diplomatic note said, *underscoring that this acknowledgement did not compromise his privileges and immunities under Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations of 1961*.
> 
> This declaration did not alter Pakistan`s obligations to honour Mr Davis`s privilege and immunities as an administrative and technical staff member.
> 
> The embassy in its first statement on the Lahore incident had also referred to Davis as a consulate staffer and not a diplomat.
> 
> Davis had been notified to Pakistani authorities in January last year as having been assigned to the Islamabad mission as a `member of the administrative and technical staff`.Although over a year has passed since he was first notified by the US embassy, he hasn`t been registered as yet because of what Pakistani officials claim as `unresolved queries`. The American embassy, nevertheless, insists it hadn`t received any reply to its notification in respect of Davis`s posting in Pakistan.
> 
> Consequently, his status remained undefined. A US embassy official, at a background briefing for Dawn, said the notification by the embassy made Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity and not registration by FO, which he hadn`t been given as yet.
> 
> The diplomatic note further asked the Pakistan government to shed its ambiguous position on the status of the American official. The government, apparently because of feared consequences both domestic and bilateral, has so far been *shying away from determining the status of the accused*. Although, government officials in private discussions claim that Davis did not have a diplomatic status, publicly their stance has been that the issue would be decided by courts.
> 
> The embassy in its note threw the book at the government and accused it of violating both its international obligations and local laws by keeping Davis detained and not deciding on his status.
> 
> It reminded the Pakistan government that its own laws provided the procedure for resolving such contentious issues. Although not said explicitly, it implied that the government needed to first decide for itself whether or not it recognised Davis as a diplomat before courts adjudicated on it.
> 
> A reference was made to Pakistan`s Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act of 1972, which states: *If any question arises whether or not any person is entitled to the privilege or immunity under this Act, a certificate issued by or under the authority of the federal government stating any fact relating to the question shall be conclusive evidence of that fact.* And hence the demand that the Foreign Office issue a certificate on his diplomatic status forthwith.
> 
> A US diplomat in the background briefing said the US wanted the Pakistan government to decide on the issue one way or the other. Settling it through the media is ludicrous, the official added, referring to the intense media debate.
> 
> A certification accepting Davis as a diplomat would naturally end the debate and pave way for his release and return to the US, but if the government decided otherwise, the diplomat suggested the matter would be resolved through bilateral negotiations, but wouldn`t say if that meant using the leverages that Washington had with Islamabad.



*"This declaration did not alter Pakistan`s obligations to honour Mr Davis`s privilege and immunities as an administrative and technical staff member.*


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## American Eagle

A poster here identified as LOGIC is ignoring the facts of record today that Mr. Davis is admitted to have Diplomatic Status.

The fact is all diplomatic staff of the US Dept. of State whatever nation they serve in have Diplomatic Status.

Constant defying of the facts and posting of false drivel does not change the fact that the GOP "admits" that Mr. Davis has diplomatic status, is under a Diplomatic US Passport with a valid Paksitani Diplomatic Visa. All of this is of record with the GOP Minister of Interior and with the US Embassy in Islamabad.

Enough immature stuff.

Time to face up to the history of two robbers who failed in their fourth robbery of record attempt and were taken down when using guns to try to stick up Mr. Davis.

The courts focus now is on who were the robbers, not who is Mr. Davis. The court has already been told by the GOP who Mr. Davis is, a diplomat with diplomatic immunity.


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## American Eagle

FROM INTERNET SITE OF PAKISTANI AFFAIRS dated Feb. 3, 2011

*Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity: US Embassy*
February 3, 2011  5:40 pm

Islamabad: The United States Government once again calls upon the Government of Pakistan to abide by its obligations under international and Pakistani law and immediately release the American diplomat illegally detained in Lahore. The 

Pak Affairs 

Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity: US Embassy
Submitted by Khawaja Zahid yaqoob on February 3, 2011  5:40 PM 

Islamabad: The United States Government once again calls upon the Government of Pakistan to abide by its obligations under international and Pakistani law and immediately release the American diplomat illegally detained in Lahore. The U.S. Embassy reiterated to the Government of Pakistan today that his continued detention is a gross violation of international law.[/COLOR

]The U.S. Government has repeatedly communicated to the Government of Pakistan that the illegally detained diplomat enjoys diplomatic immunities under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations (1961). 

The U.S. Government notified the Government of Pakistan on January 20, 2010 that the American diplomat was assigned to the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad as a member of the administrative and technical staff. *Under the Vienna Convention and Pakistani domestic law, he is entitled to full criminal immunity and cannot be lawfully arrested or detained.* 

This morning, the American diplomat was remanded in court_ without notice to the U.S. government, without his lawyer present, and without translation assistance. He was denied due process and a fair hearing._

We deeply regret that the January 27 events in Lahore resulted in the loss of life following an attack on the diplomat *by armed assailants. *However, the Government of Pakistan must comply with its obligations under international and Pakistani law and ensure that he has immunity from criminal jurisdiction. 

We look forward to working with the Government of Pakistan toward the expeditious resolution of this incident. Responsibility for the safety and well-being of the illegally detained diplomat rests with the Government of Pakistan and Punjab provincial authorities.-U.S. Embassy Islamabad


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## Pak_Sher

American Eagle said:


> Enough immature stuff.
> 
> Time to face up to the history of two robbers who failed in their fourth robbery of record attempt and were taken down when using guns to try to stick up Mr. Davis.
> 
> The courts focus now is on who were the robbers, not who is Mr. Davis. The court has already been told by the GOP who Mr. Davis is, a diplomat with diplomatic immunity.



Had John Doe followed the diplomatic protocol and obtained permission, he may have been protected by plain clothes security personnel. But since John Doe was on a covert oop and was driving a fake licence plate vehicle, with illegal sim card cell phones and illegal firearms, that is why he got in trouble. No one forced him to be there in the first place that was his choice.

Vienna convention was formed by Western Countries when the OIC, ASEAN, Saarc or the African Union did not exist and it is time that new conventions are implemented and older ones nullified or modified.


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## Thomas

Pak_Sher said:


> Vienna convention was formed by Western Countries when the OIC, ASEAN, Saarc or the African Union did not exist and it is time that new conventions are implemented and older ones nullified or modified.



That may be but until that happens it is the obligation of all countries to abide by it. Or I guess they could decide not to and then put their own diplomats in jeopardy.


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## Pak_Sher

Thomas said:


> That may be but until that happens it is the obligation of all countries to abide by it. Or I guess they could decide not to and then put their own diplomats in jeopardy.



May be this is the start and maybe UN may not exist 20 years for now just like the Leage of nations, Warsaw Pact or USSR.

If Pakistani diplomats are caught in US violating diplomatic norms, having fake registrations and license plates, have 3 different leases in 3 villas under 3 different ids, illegal firearms possession, violation of traffic laws, withdrawing 6 figure amount from the bank before the incident with no explanation and murdering US citizens then they should be prosecuted under US law, I totally agree.

There are now 184 million people in Pakistan and 308 million people in US, that makes it 492 million people. We should not sever our ties for one person and let the law decide the dcision.


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## Thomas

Pak_Sher said:


> May be this is the start and maybe UN may not exist 20 years for now just like the Leage of nations, Warsaw Pact or USSR.
> 
> If Pakistani diplomats are caught in US violating diplomatic norms, having fake registrations and license plates, have 3 different leases in 3 villas under 3 different ids, illegal firearms possession, violation of traffic laws, withdrawing 6 figure amount from the bank before the incident with no explnation and murdering US citizens then they should be prosecuted under US law, I totally agree.
> 
> There are now 184 million people in Pakistan and 308 million people in US, that makes it 492 million people. We should not sever our ties for one person and let the law decide the dcision.



I'm afraid the issue of immunity goes far beyond infractions you listed. For instance what about intelligence operations. All major countries run such operations from their embassies. And Pakistan I'm sure is no different.

Then there is always the possibility of a country actually staging a crime to frame a diplomat. As ludicrous as some of that might sound. I am simply driving home the point that diplomatic immunity is what it is for a reason. And people a whole lot smarter then you and me framed it the way it is for a reason.


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## logic

*Special treatment to Davis challenged​*
*A WRIT petition has been filed in the Lahore High Court, challenging the alleged special treatment being given to US citizen Raymond Davis, a double murder accused, and pleading that he be treated him as an ordinary accused.​*Ishtiaq Chaudhry advocate filed the petition on Thursday, contending that the authorities concerned were treating Davis as a guest being a US national. He said on Thursday, the prosecution/police produced the accused before a magistrate at cantonment courts one hour earlier before the scheduled time.

*He alleged that the said act of police was based on malafide intention and to cheat the family and lawyers of Qurtaba Chowk incident victims. He said that due to prosecutionís deceitful act, the defence lawyers had failed to contest the case, violating the spirit of complete justice.*

The petitioner further submitted that Davis was to be produced before the magistrate concerned at the Model Town Courts but the prosecution had produced him at Cantonment Courts even on second hearing on Thursday. He pointed out that the police station where the case was registered against Davis fell within the jurisdiction of Model Town Courts but the prosecution with mala fide intention was not following the law.

The petitioner pleaded that the prosecution be directed to act strictly according to law and treat Davis like an ordinary accused.

*Plea to try Davis for forgery: A writ petition has been moved in the Lahore High Court, seeking directions for government to prosecute US national Raymond Davis for committing forgery by applying visa under a fake name.*

In his petition, Barrister Iqbal Jafree submitted that Davis had got a visa under a fake name which had made the whole process of visa doubtful and the his visa stood cancelled ab intio (from the beginning). He said Raymond Davis used excessive force while gunning down two Pakistani at the Qurtaba Chowk on January 27 that shifted all burden on him.

He pleaded that Davis deserved no special treatment and should be punished for killing and committing fraud. He said issuance of faked-name passport to Davis by the US government was telltale for us.

plea for foreigners data: The Lahore High Court chief justice on Thursday sought replies from federal and Punjab governments on a constitutional petition, seeking directions for ministries of interior and foreign affairs to provide the Punjab government complete information/functions about foreigners living in the province. CJ Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry directed a deputy attorney general and an assistant advocate general to ensure submission of replies within three weeks.

Noshab A Khan advocate had filed the petition under Article 199 of the constitution in the backdrop of murder of two Pakistani youths at Qurtaba Chowk by US citizen Raymond Davis.

The petitioner submitted that the scarcity of correct information about the accused was causing hardships for the public at large and him. He prayed to the court that the ministries of interior and foreign affairs be directed to supply all the necessary information, including their duties and functions, their whereabouts, movements and designs, to the Punjab interior secretary about foreigners in the province.

The lawyer further prayed that the Punjab government be directed to take all the necessary steps to safeguard the precious life and property of citizens, especially from foreigners.


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## logic

*Rally warns govt against Davis release​*
Rally warns govt against Davis release

*Wasim, brother of Fahim, said that they were receiving several offers for acquittal of Raymond from murder charges.* They claimed that had been offered money and multiple visas of the US, directly and indirectly. PTI Lahore president Mian Mehmood-ur-Rasheed said that Raymond was a professional killer, adding that he was a Black Water member. He warned the government of consequences of if it used any unlawful means to release Raymond. ISF president Hassan Khan Niazi said if the government provided safe passage to Raymond, they would take law into their hands and kill every American present in the US Consulate by gaining entry into the Consulate.


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## GUNNER

*Raymond Davis must face the music *

*By Shaukat Qadir*

Some days ago, a security consultant by the name of Raymod Davis employed by the US consulate in Lahore, shot and killed two young men in Lahore in broad daylight. He was overtaken by the two men, who were riding a motorcycle, when he stopped at a red traffic light. A backup vehicle summoned by Davis from the consulate, jumped the curb on the wrong side of the road, running over and killing an innocent bystander on a motorcycle. The backup vehicle escaped, but Davis was apprehended.

That Davis was no ordinary technician, as was initially claimed, was immediately obvious to the discerning from his ability to use a handgun. Anybody who has used one can tell you that it requires considerable expertise to put a bullet in a target, even at short-range. Raymond fired eight rounds and each one found its mark; four to each dead body. What is more, after killing them, Raymond walked up to the bodies to calmly photograph them on his mobile phone; all the hallmarks of a true professional.

Both dead men also had handguns on them; one in a holster, the other lying on the road; but neither weapon had been discharged! Raymond claimed self-defence with the plea that he had only just withdrawn a large sum of money and these boys were seeking to rob him; this is well within the realms of possibility. Such incidents are not uncommon on our roads. However, foul play was suspected when it was discovered that each body had two bullets in the back; probably the ones resulting in their deaths. Now, if one is experienced with the use of weapons, one is aware that if the first round hits an individual, let us say, on the shoulder, its force will turn him around, though usually not 180 degrees. Even if the latter were possible, two bullets in the back of each? That would make anyone suspect!

What is more, if they were seeking to rob him, he could only be certain if at least one had drawn a weapon. The fact that one weapon was lying on the ground makes it a possibility that the weapon was in the hands of one of the boys or, alternately, it could have fallen from his belt, if it was not in a strap down holster. However, even if the young men were amateurs, which also is distinctly possible, and the first bullet to hit one only injured him, he should still have been able to release at least one round.

Davis has been charged under section 302 of the Pakistan Penal Code, (PPC) i.e. murder with intent. If convicted, he could be sentenced to life imprisonment, or death.

Ironically, despite the fact that the incident took place in broad daylight, witnessed, presumably, by hundreds of people, the public has not been made aware of any details of the incident: Was it a robbery? Did the young men draw their weapons first? Were they even facing Davis threateningly? Admittedly, people may not have been paying attention initially, but even a true professional would take a few seconds to let loose eight rounds at two different targets, even if they were close together. Time enough for neighbouring pedestrians and commuters to see some details of the incident. If they did, the media has not relayed much. Consequently, we have to make assumptions from the known facts and give Davis the benefit of the doubt, if and where it is due. From the known facts, the evidence appears fairly damning.

Finally, the US consulate has admitted that Raymond Davis is not his real name, but has not disclosed the real one. We shall, therefore, continue to address him by his pseudonym. We also now know that he is an employee of Hyperion Protective Consultants  a security firm less well-known than its famous and far larger competitor, Xe.

As expected, the US administration is exerting considerable pressure on Pakistan, demanding that he be granted diplomatic immunity, even though he is not a diplomat and was in possession of an ordinary passport when arrested; later, a diplomatic passport was offered to the police!

Domestically, there is a peculiar tussle going on. Had the incident occurred in Islamabad, the central government might well have granted Raymond diplomatic immunity. However, the incident occurred in the jurisdiction of the Punjab police. Despite US pressure, the central government is helpless, having no jurisdiction. The Sharif brethren stand firmly in defiance, and insist that the courts will decide. So far, it seems likely that Davis will have to face the music and the likelihood of conviction. The PPP is quite happy, so long as the US ire is directed at the Sharif brothers. Like many other politicians, they labour under the fond belief that Pakistani elections take place in Washington DC; and this incident might seal the next election in their favour! To add flavour to the whole affair, our honest interior minister has finally admitted to the Senate that Raymond did, in fact, have a diplomatic visa; ironically, his last visa on this diplomatic passport was issued in Islamabad!

This is not the only instance where employees and diplomats of the US embassy have been found in possession of weapons, sometimes more lethal ones than a Glock. Some have even brandished them to threaten locals; though this is the first instance of a weapon having been fired.

Some people are quick to accuse our intelligence agencies; unfairly, I think. The real culprit is the central government, under whose instructions our embassy in Washington issues visas to all and sundry, no questions asked. With so many well-armed American citizens roaming our streets, this was a disaster waiting to happen. Davis must face the music in order to send a message to Washington: We have, to our shame, given you carte blanche to kill our citizens with drone attacks, but we will not permit murder in our streets.

If we dont send this message, he will only be the first of others!

Published in The Express Tribune, February 4th, 2011.


Raymond Davis must face the music &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## GUNNER

*Davis and our blundering Foriegn Office*

*By Zafar Hilaly*


The Foreign Offices (FO) pathetic attempts to find a policy are, once again, on display in the case of Raymond Davis. Watching it perform is like watching a third-rate review in some backstreet theatre where performers appear in various guises and dance, with despairing vigour, the same old jig (of evading facts and keeping quiet when they need to speak up).

It beggars the imagination that the FO does not know whether a member of a foreign mission is a diplomat or not. Actually it knows, but the man who heads the show will sing you any song that you want him to sing. His short-sighted policy  not to confront reality for the sake of cheap popularity  is the very nature of this government. Time and again we have seen how it bends to lick its own spit because reality is unavoidable, which is what will eventually happen in this case.

The fact of the matter is that Raymond Davis is, by the reckoning of most neutral observers, a diplomat for the purposes of Article 38 of the Vienna Convention and hence entitled to diplomatic immunity. No court needs to decide that, only the Foreign Office does, because his status is a question, not of law, but of fact, and by refusing to do so the FO has landed the government in a far greater mess than it would have been in had it alluded to international law and said that, given the circumstances, it was helpless. Our politicos, too, would have had to lump it. Because what is likely to happen is that either the US shuts shop and stops dealing with Pakistan or, alternatively, informs Pakistan that the immunity of its diplomats in the US will be withdrawn. Of course, for good measure, it can stop issuing visas for the 1,800 or so diplomatic and official Pakistani passport holders who travel to the US annually.

There are many other courses of action open to the US, and for that matter to Pakistan, to demonstrate their respective displeasure, but what is clear is that the former would have to react in some manner or lose face to an extent that would be insufferable and, frankly, counterproductive. Besides, Congress would step in somewhere down the line to further muddy the waters if Washington does not react strongly.

Of course, it is lamentable that nations lie and dissemble, and want gunmen and sleuths to be treated on par with diplomats in order to enable them to claim immunity from prosecution. But then, welcome to the real world. Lest we think we are any better, we have several Raymond Davis types in our missions abroad, trying to collect the same kind of information that he was. And, now and then, they too get caught and end up being repatriated, albeit without anyone being any the wiser.

The court would do us all a favour by insisting that the Foreign Office determine whether Raymond Davis has immunity, rather than to let the government off the hook by coming to the same decision itself after proceedings, during which our relations with the US will be greatly strained. Of course, there is no reason why we should not take on the US, but surely when international law is on our side, not merely to court cheap popularity. Meanwhile, all should focus on getting maximum compensation for the families of those killed by Davis.

*Published in The Express Tribune, February 4th, 2011.*


Davis and our blundering Foriegn Office &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## American Eagle

Gunner in Post # 1369 says it all!

Pakistanis logic on the street in some quarters is without logic, as they ignore the murder of the Paksitani Governor of Punjab Province...as well as the failed robbery attempt by two armed thugs whose crime history per Lahore Police was existant in several, 3 or 4, previous robberies they were sought for.

Pakistan's seeming official ambivalence is seen by the world for what it is, trying to cover up a botched robbery attempt on an American diplomt who has diplomatic immunity to try to create fake, flatly false "martyrs" to whip up poorest levels of understanding among the most abused Paksitanis to mislead them into another blind alley of hate mongering...all to distract them from the awful conditions they are historically forced to live in.

Condole the family of the shot in self defense robbers but move on with the truth and exercise Diplomat Immunity for Mr. Davis so this innocent, put upon diplomat can go home to the US and never see Pakistan again.

Pakistan has no current national unity, and way back in the 1960s when I served with the old US Embassy in Karachi lacked same then, too. National unity is not built around false, untrue gamesmanship, but around a sincere government reform effort that empowers the least among you to have at least the "hope" of a better life, if not for themselves as greying adults, at least for their children and future grandchildren.


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## Bratva

*A Special Treat For Mr.American Eagle *

*Police find self-defence plea not convincing*

ISLAMABAD: Police investigators into the double murder case of American killer Raymond Davis have not found the murderers claim of self-defence convincing.

*Instead, the investigators see his act as an excessive and disproportionate use of force, which is not covered in the definition of self-defence as per the law of the land.*

Without having been fired at or threatened to death, the police sources said, Davis killed the two young men by excessive and disproportionate use of force.

Sources told The News that police investigations are still continuing and a lot of evidence is to be recorded, including from the accused. *Davis has yet to justify as to why he fired nine bullets on the two young men, that too mostly on their back.*

The murderer, who spoke on the very first day but later sealed his lips following his meeting with US officials, had initially claimed that he had acted in self-defence after the two young men were allegedly trying to rob him.

*The police, who have been facing non-cooperation on the part of the killer, now expect to get something really meaningful out of Davis as the court on Thursday extended his police remand for another eight days. After receiving consular access, Davis became stubborn but has now started losing his confidence.*

Besides his motive to kill the two Pakistanis, a lot is to be asked from the killer, seen as a US spy. Police are anxious to get answers to questions like who did he call for help? Why did he shoot at two men without having being fired at? Why did he shoot to death the young men in their back? Who was in the back-up vehicle that killed another young man? What was he doing there? *Why was he carrying illicit arms, GPS (global positioning system), four magazines, more than 70 bullets, pictures of sensitive installations? What is his assignment in Pakistan? What is his real identity? etc.*

Regarding the self-defence plea of the murderer, a prominent Barrister Farogh Naseem has said that if the American had killed two persons in self-defence, then it is for the court to decide that whether the act was proportionate to the threat or not. Naseem mentioned that the law does not accept that if a person punches someone and receives a bullet in return. Self-defence has to be proportionate.

*The detailed post mortem reports of the two deceased men reveal that they received nine bullets altogether out of which one bullet struck one of the two from the front. The reports said that Fahim Shamshad, whose post mortem was conducted after 22 hours and 30 minutes of his death, received the first bullet hitting his head on the right side in the back, second at his back, third on left side of his waist while the fourth bullet hit his left wrist and passed after touching his left leg.
*

*According to the post mortem of Faizan Haider, he succumbed to injuries in hospital after receiving five wound marks on his body. He received the first bullet from the front at left side of his chest, the second passed through his left hip, the third at left side waist from the back while two bullets passed after touching his left leg.*

According to police investigators, in self-defence a person merely disables the attacker but in case of Davis, he appeared ruthless and apparently killed the deceased without any sign of having been assaulted by the victims.

Under the PPC, the right of self-defence can be used to the extent of killing the assailant if an assault may reasonably cause the apprehension that death will otherwise be the consequence of such assault or that such an assault as may reasonably cause the apprehension that grievous hurt will otherwise be the consequence of such assault, etc.

According to the PPC, if the offence (of killing someone in self-defence) be not of any of the descriptions enumerated in the PPC, the right of private defence of the body does not extend to the voluntary causing of death to the assailant.

The right of private defence of the body commences as soon as a reasonable apprehension of danger to the body arises from an attempt or threat to commit the offence though the offence may not have been committed; and it continues as long as such apprehension of danger to the body continues, the PPC explains.

Police find self-defence plea not convincing

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## Patriot

Whether he is guilty or not - If he has diplomatic immunity then we will have to release him - It's sad but we have to follow International Rules otherwise our diplomats will receive similar treatment.

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## Rafael

American Eagle said:


> Gunner in Post # 1369 says it all!
> 
> Pakistanis logic on the street in some quarters is without logic, as they ignore the murder of the Paksitani Governor of Punjab Province...as well as the failed robbery attempt by two armed thugs whose crime history per Lahore Police was existant in several, 3 or 4, previous robberies they were sought for.
> 
> Pakistan's seeming official ambivalence is seen by the world for what it is, trying to cover up a botched robbery attempt on an American diplomt who has diplomatic immunity to try to create fake, flatly false "martyrs" to whip up poorest levels of understanding among the most abused Paksitanis to mislead them into another blind alley of hate mongering...all to distract them from the awful conditions they are historically forced to live in.
> 
> Condole the family of the shot in self defense robbers but move on with the truth and exercise Diplomat Immunity for Mr. Davis so this innocent, put upon diplomat can go home to the US and never see Pakistan again.
> 
> Pakistan has no current national unity, and way back in the 1960s when I served with the old US Embassy in Karachi lacked same then, too. National unity is not built around false, untrue gamesmanship, but around a sincere government reform effort that empowers the least among you to have at least the "hope" of a better life, if not for themselves as greying adults, at least for their children and future grandchildren.



You don't trust the legal proceedings, You don't believe in investigation by the local police officers, You don't like Pakistan's Foriegn office for their lack of support to the criminal American, You hat Pakistani public for asking their govt. for fair trial of Mr. Davis, But you come here and rant like anything. 

Get over it, your fellow American will not be released. He will rott for all his life in the dark jail room *here*!


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## American Eagle

I am on record ever since 911 as a long term friend of Pakistan. Period.

I don't like trumped up charges when the issue is proven crooks using deadly weapons in an attempted stick up of a US diplomat.

Blasphemy advocates excuse the murder of the Governor of Punjab Province. I do not so agree and he was truely murdered in cold blood.

The two bandits were shot in self defense by a diplomat with diplomatic immunity.

Trying to make heroes out of common, with a record of 4 or more robberies, crooks is on it's face self explaining as to why the world at large does not share your viewpoint, which ignores that a diplomatically immune US diplomat faced attempted armed robbery and defended himself.

Your "allegations" of police opinions are sheer fabrication and propaganda which self satisfies your views one would suppose.

I will continue to pray for the future peace of Pakistan, where a stronger degree of religious freedom, an end to terrorism and a better day for ALL not just some Pakistanis must and one day will exist.

Two robbers, armed with unlicensed guns, each had a pistol, holding four cell phones, two each, one of the two each cell phones having just been stolen off of two Pakstiani gentlemen who filed a police report against these same two robbers, is a point blank fact of crooks trying to execute armed robbery.

The Pakistani Foreign Office, not a subcourt, is the legal point of order to obey Diplomatic Immunity and release Mr. Davis into US custody so that he can be removed permanently from Pakistan.

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## Bratva

raheel1 said:


> You don't trust the legal proceedings, You don't believe in investigation by the local police officers, You don't like Pakistan's Foriegn office for their lack of support to the criminal American, You hat Pakistani public for asking their govt. for fair trial of Mr. Davis, But you come here and rant like anything.
> 
> Get over it, your fellow American will not be released. He will rott for all his life in the dark jail room *here*!



His rants become so over the board that He claims Davis to be innocent, constantly declaring two persons robbers, even Police had not declared them Robbers officially, even after two persons claimed them the robbers and launched a FIR against them but Police is still investigating if they were robbers or not and, American Eagle constantly nagging like a old lady that he is innocent or more precisely acting like a Judge!


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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> I am on record ever since 911 as a long term friend of Pakistan. Period.
> 
> I don't like trumped up charges when the issue is proven crooks using deadly weapons in an attempted stick up of a US diplomat.
> 
> Blasphemy advocates excuse the murder of the Governor of Punjab Province. I do not so agree and he was truely murdered in cold blood.
> 
> The two bandits were shot in self defense by a diplomat with diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Trying to make heroes out of common, with a record of 4 or more robberies, crooks is on it's face self explaining as to why the world at large does not share your viewpoint, which ignores that a diplomatically immune US diplomat faced attempted armed robbery and defended himself.
> 
> Your "allegations" of police opinions are sheer fabrication and propaganda which self satisfies your views one would suppose.
> 
> I will continue to pray for the future peace of Pakistan, where a stronger degree of religious freedom, an end to terrorism and a better day for ALL not just some Pakistanis must and one day will exist.
> 
> Two robbers, armed with unlicensed guns, each had a pistol, holding four cell phones, two each, one of the two each cell phones having just been stolen off of two Pakstiani gentlemen who filed a police report against these same two robbers, is a point blank fact of crooks trying to execute armed robbery.
> 
> The Pakistani Foreign Office, not a subcourt, is the legal point of order to obey Diplomatic Immunity and release Mr. Davis into US custody so that he can be removed permanently from Pakistan.




Were you with Davis at that time? that you are constantly saying he acted in self defense? *Your "allegations" of Self-Defense are sheer fabrication and propaganda which self satisfies your views one would suppose.*

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## American Eagle

> Ascertaining Raymond Davis?s identity &#8211; The Express Tribune



Click on the above subject line for the full article for your own reading satisfaction.

In this a well written legal article by a Lahore attorney whose law degree was earned in the US you will find the folkowing:



> By way of background, the foundation for this principle was laid down in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 1961, which is considered the most important international agreement on diplomatic immunity. The relevant part of Article 31 of this Convention sets out the immunity of a diplomatic agent from the criminal jurisdiction of the country in which the diplomatic agent is working. A diplomatic agent has been defined in Article 1 of the convention as the head of the mission or a member of the diplomatic staff of the mission which includes administrative, technical and service staff of the mission. Therefore, strictly in accordance with the Vienna Convention, if Raymond Davis&#8217;s identity as a diplomatic agent is established, he should be let off the hook.



Armed crooks with a robbery police record are not innocents by any means. Ranting I read here is from angry people who will excuse armed robbery to claim they were murdered when in fact the crooks were "shot in the line of duty of being a stick up crook."

The Foreign Office of Pakistan, not the sub courts, is responsible for honoring Diplomatic Immunity which derives from International Law and Treaties and is above all laws of Pakistan.

If you want to check my long term friendship toward Pakistan check the archieves of the Karachi DAWN on line starting from shortly after 911 in 2001 down to the curren time. I think some of my more than 50 publications in DAWN have to be searched for using variants of Colonel George L. Singleton; George L. Singleton; and George Singleton as the writer.


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## Awesome

*FO did not grant diplomatic status to Davis: US* | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

ISLAMABAD: The United States forcefully presented on Thursday its case for immunity under Geneva Convention for Raymond Davis, the American official accused of double murder in Lahore, but at the same time *admitted that Pakistan`s Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to `administrative and technical staff` of foreign missions based here.*

A diplomatic note was handed over to Foreign Office by the US embassy asking the government to release Davis in accordance with the country`s obligations under international law.

The note said Davis was mentioned, in the request for registration with FO, *as non-diplomatic staff only to comply with its regulations which do not accept `technical and administrative` staff of foreign missions as diplomatic staff at the time of issuance of accreditation cards.*

The latest edition of Foreign Office`s *protocol manual (page 18) requires of all foreign missions to designate `administrative and technical staff` as `non-diplomatic staff`*, even though it appears to be a clear deviation from the Vienna Convention`s Article 37, which clearly states members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission shall enjoy the privileges and immunities.

*[My Note: After "Privileges and Immunities Article 37 reads: "except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction"]*

The embassy complied with MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) instructions, the diplomatic note said, underscoring that this acknowledgement did not compromise his privileges and immunities under Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations of 1961.

This declaration did not alter Pakistan`s obligations to honour Mr Davis`s privilege and immunities as an administrative and technical staff member.

*The embassy in its first statement on the Lahore incident had also referred to Davis as a consulate staffer and not a diplomat.*

*Davis had been notified to Pakistani authorities in January last year as having been assigned to the Islamabad mission as a `member of the administrative and technical staff*`.Although over a year has passed since he was first notified by the US embassy, he hasn`t been registered as yet because of what Pakistani officials claim as `unresolved queries`. The American embassy, nevertheless, insists it hadn`t received any reply to its notification in respect of Davis`s posting in Pakistan.

*Consequently, his status remained undefined. A US embassy official, at a background briefing for Dawn, said the notification by the embassy made Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity and not registration by FO, which he hadn`t been given as yet.*

The diplomatic note further asked the Pakistan government to shed its ambiguous position on the status of the American official. The government, apparently because of feared consequences both domestic and bilateral, has so far been shying away from determining the status of the accused. Although, government officials in private discussions claim that Davis did not have a diplomatic status, publicly their stance has been that the issue would be decided by courts.

The embassy in its note threw the book at the government and accused it of violating both its international obligations and local laws by keeping Davis detained and not deciding on his status.

It reminded the Pakistan government that its own laws provided the procedure for resolving such contentious issues. Although not said explicitly, it implied that the government needed to first decide for itself whether or not it recognised Davis as a diplomat before courts adjudicated on it.

A reference was made to Pakistan`s Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act of 1972, which states: If any question arises whether or not any person is entitled to the privilege or immunity under this Act, a certificate issued by or under the authority of the federal government stating any fact relating to the question shall be conclusive evidence of that fact. And hence the demand that the Foreign Office issue a certificate on his diplomatic status forthwith.

A US diplomat in the background briefing said the US wanted the Pakistan government to decide on the issue one way or the other. Settling it through the media is ludicrous, the official added, referring to the intense media debate.

A certification accepting Davis as a diplomat would naturally end the debate and pave way for his release and return to the US, but if the government decided otherwise, the diplomat suggested the matter would be resolved through bilateral negotiations, but wouldn`t say if that meant using the leverages that Washington had with Islamabad.

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## 53fd

_I am on record ever since 911 as a long term friend of Pakistan. Period._

I don't think disrespecting Pakistan's judicial system, its people, its policies comes under being a long term friend sir. Period.

I don't think you consider any Pakistani (or any other country's) source(s) as trustworthy if it doesn't suit your agenda. And btw sir, I've lived more than half my life in America, and I love Pakistan as well as America. But please, let *all* the evidences make you come to a conclusion, not the vice versa. You are older than me, and I didn't mean to disrespect you in anyway, but please be mindful of the sentiments of the Pakistani people as well. From all your posts above, I'm sorry to say that you have disparaged the Pakistani members here, and not even demonstrated an inkling of respect for Pakistan. It's a shame because I know firsthand that most Americans are not like this once they get full information, and I am disappointed that someone who has served in Pakistan would show such disrespect to it, a country that shows hospitality even to the point of its exploitation. Most people who have visited Pakistan have good things to say about the country, as compared to the media warriors.
*
Anyways, the US has admitted that the Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to Davis, because Pakistan's Foreign Office does not grant diplomatic status to `administrative and technical staff` of foreign missions based in the country. Case closed.*

FO did not grant diplomatic status to Davis: US | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

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## American Eagle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FO did not grant diplomatic status to Davis: US | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

ISLAMABAD: The United States forcefully presented on Thursday its case for immunity under Geneva Convention for Raymond Davis, the American official accused of double murder in Lahore, but at the same time admitted that Pakistan`s Foreign Office did not grant diplomatic status to `administrative and technical staff` of foreign missions based here.

A diplomatic note was handed over to Foreign Office by the US embassy asking the government to release Davis in accordance with the country`s obligations under international law.

The note said Davis was mentioned, in the request for registration with FO, as non-diplomatic staff only to comply with its regulations which do not accept `technical and administrative` staff of foreign missions as diplomatic staff at the time of issuance of accreditation cards.

The latest edition of Foreign Office`s protocol manual (page 18) requires of all foreign missions to designate `administrative and technical staff` as `non-diplomatic staff`, even though it appears to be _a clear deviation_ from the Vienna Convention`s Article 37, which clearly states &#8220;members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission&#8230; shall enjoy the privileges and immunities&#8221;.

&#8220;The embassy complied with MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) instructions,&#8221; the diplomatic note said, underscoring that this acknowledgement did not compromise his privileges and immunities under Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations of 1961.

This declaration &#8220;did not alter Pakistan`s obligations to honour Mr Davis`s privilege and immunities as an administrative and technical staff member&#8221;.

The embassy in its first statement on the Lahore incident had also referred to Davis as a consulate staffer and not a diplomat.

Davis had been notified to Pakistani authorities in January last year as having been assigned to the Islamabad mission as a `member of the administrative and technical staff`.Although over a year has passed since he was first notified by the US embassy, he hasn`t been registered as yet because of what Pakistani officials claim as `unresolved queries`. The American embassy, nevertheless, insists it hadn`t received any reply to its notification in respect of Davis`s posting in Pakistan.

Consequently, his status remained undefined. A US embassy official, at a background briefing for Dawn, said the notification by the embassy made Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity and not registration by FO, which he hadn`t been given as yet.

The diplomatic note further asked the Pakistan government to shed its ambiguous position on the status of the American official. The government, apparently because of feared consequences both domestic and bilateral, has so far been shying away from determining the status of the accused. Although, government officials in private discussions claim that Davis did not have a diplomatic status, publicly their stance has been that the issue would be decided by courts.

The embassy in its note threw the book at the government and accused it of violating both its international obligations and local laws by keeping Davis detained and not deciding on his status.

It reminded the Pakistan government that its own laws provided the procedure for resolving such contentious issues. Although not said explicitly, it implied that the government needed to first decide for itself whether or not it recognised Davis as a diplomat before courts adjudicated on it.

A reference was made to Pakistan`s Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act of 1972, which states: &#8220;If any question arises whether or not any person is entitled to the privilege or immunity under this Act, a certificate issued by or under the authority of the federal government stating any fact relating to the question shall be conclusive evidence of that fact.&#8221; And hence the demand that the Foreign Office issue a certificate on his diplomatic status forthwith.

A US diplomat in the background briefing said the US wanted the Pakistan government to decide on the issue one way or the other. &#8220;Settling it through the media is ludicrous,&#8221; the official added, referring to the intense media debate.

A certification accepting Davis as a diplomat would naturally end the debate and pave way for his release and return to the US, but if the government decided otherwise, the diplomat suggested the matter would be resolved through bilateral negotiations, but wouldn`t say if that meant using the leverages that Washington had with Islamabad.


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## Awesome

Under Article 37, Davis would have immunity from a speeding ticket, jay walking, not for capital crimes.

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## Awesome

Patriot said:


> Whether he is guilty or not - If he has diplomatic immunity then we will have to release him - It's sad but we have to follow International Rules otherwise our diplomats will receive similar treatment.


Even the American media is chill about it, they smell a rat too... I don't think we need to take the pressure, Americans are only going to push as much as we allow them to.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations
1961*

*Vienna Convention's Article 37*

*Article 37*
1.The members of the family of a diplomatic agent forming part of his household shall, if they are
not nationals of the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 36.
2.Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of
their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of orpermanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29
to 35, *except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State* specified
in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties. They
shall also enjoy the privileges specified in article 36, paragraph 1, in respect of articles imported at the
time of first installation.
3.Members of the service staff of the mission who are not nationals of or permanently resident in
the receiving State shall enjoy immunity in respect of acts performed in the course of their duties,
exemption from dues and taxes on the emoluments they receive by reason of their employment and the
exemption contained in article 33.
4.Private servants of members of the mission shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently
resident in the receiving State, be exempt from dues and taxes on the emoluments they receive by reason
of their employment. In other respects, they may enjoy privileges and immunities only to the extent
admitted by the receiving State. However, the receiving State must exercise its jurisdiction over those
persons in such a manner as not to interfere unduly with the performance of the functions of the mission.

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf

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## American Eagle

American media is astounded at the murder of the Governor of Punjab Province under the excuse of the blasphemy law, and is most unhappy with media hype in Pakistan to try to deify two track records as known robbers who failed in an armed stick up attemt of a US diplomat who defended himself against threat to his life and limb.

No one agrees with this nonsense as espoused by misinformed Pakistanis compounded by Pakistani terrorists in disguise on this PDF and other websites, and the failure of the GOP Foreign Office up until now to do it's duty and release and send back to the US our diplomat Mr. Ramond Davis.


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## Developereo

American Eagle said:


> Gunner in Post # 1369 says it all!
> 
> Pakistanis logic on the street in some quarters is without logic, as they ignore the murder of the Paksitani Governor of Punjab Province...as well as the failed robbery attempt by two armed thugs whose crime history per Lahore Police was existant in several, 3 or 4, previous robberies they were sought for.
> 
> Pakistan's seeming official ambivalence is seen by the world for what it is, trying to cover up a botched robbery attempt on an American diplomt who has diplomatic immunity to try to create fake, flatly false "martyrs" to whip up poorest levels of understanding among the most abused Paksitanis to mislead them into another blind alley of hate mongering...all to distract them from the awful conditions they are historically forced to live in.
> 
> Condole the family of the shot in self defense robbers but move on with the truth and exercise Diplomat Immunity for Mr. Davis so this innocent, put upon diplomat can go home to the US and never see Pakistan again.
> 
> Pakistan has no current national unity, and way back in the 1960s when I served with the old US Embassy in Karachi lacked same then, too. National unity is not built around false, untrue gamesmanship, but around a sincere government reform effort that empowers the least among you to have at least the "hope" of a better life, if not for themselves as greying adults, at least for their children and future grandchildren.



Going off topic is a tacit admission that you have lost the point.

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## 53fd

_American media is astounded at the murder of the Governor of Punjab Province under the excuse of the blasphemy law,_

Please stick to the topic, this is not about the Blasphemy Law or Salman Taseer, this is about Raymond Davis. I think you need to stop repeating yourself with the same strawman argument you've been using for the past 80+ pages here, we understand what you are saying. No need to keep repeating it pointlessly, this is not the courtroom. But clearly, you don't have any respect for Pakistan's legal system, or anything Pakistani if it doesn't fit your agenda. What we don't understand is you turning a blind eye towards breaches committed by Davis, which are numerous. Two blacks do not make a white sir.

_
No one agrees with this nonsense as espoused by *misinformed Pakistanis compounded by Pakistani terrorists in disguise on this PDF* and other websites, _

Isn't this sentence grounds for getting banned on PDF? Insulting members on PDF is not on, and I would ask the moderators here to look at statements like these. Unless an apology is forthcoming. I'm usually a very mellow and tolerant guy, but this is going out of hand.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> American media is astounded at the murder of the Governor of Punjab Province under the excuse of the blasphemy law, and is most unhappy with media hype in Pakistan to try to deify two track records as known robbers who failed in an armed stick up attemt of a US diplomat who defended himself against threat to his life and limb.
> 
> No one agrees with this nonsense as espoused by misinformed Pakistanis compounded by Pakistani terrorists in disguise on this PDF and other websites, and the failure of the GOP Foreign Office up until now to do it's duty and release and send back to the US our diplomat Mr. Ramond Davis.


If he has no diplomatic status as fessed up by the US Government now, the GOP has done everything right.

You are just using character assassination and slander techniques by raising the Taseer case in a totally unrelated incident and it would be seen that way and further weaken your case.

For the most part I think the US media is sitting and watching since they have read all the same conventions and will have to report it objectively and WILL have to weaken the American case as well.

USG as a defendant in this case can present its case and demand immunity, US media would have to report "There is no immunity". US media often self-censors when its self when doing so would save American lives and I think thats what they have either decided or have received instructions from by the USG.

In any other case, there would have been a huge media roar against Pakistan.

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## 53fd

_The governor of punjab was a traitor and sellout...
the loyal people of Pakistan knowz who is traitor and sellout so they are taking very good care of them ...pplz of Pakistan are waiting anxiously that if the crisis of Egypt comes here ...they will hangup the traitors on the wall/poles..._

Please, do not feed the trolls here, this is disgusting and not the topic on hand. Please avoid giving your personal feelings about someone who has already been killed, and not being discussed as the topic here.


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## Awesome

So far as the situation stands the USG has admitted that he's a consular staff not diplomatic staff.

They have solidified the argument about his diplomatic status. Now they are arguing that whether or not he deserves immunity regardless of that.

As you can read from the Vienna conventions posted above, those immunities do not extend to civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state. Not for consular staff. Which I repeat, the USG has called him a consular staff, which I repeat is a non-diplomatic status.

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## khurasaan1

logic said:


> *Rally warns govt against Davis release​*
> Rally warns govt against Davis release
> 
> *Wasim, brother of Fahim, said that they were receiving several offers for acquittal of Raymond from murder charges.* They claimed that had been offered money and multiple visas of the US, directly and indirectly. PTI Lahore president Mian Mehmood-ur-Rasheed said that Raymond was a professional killer, adding that he was a Black Water member. He warned the government of consequences of if it used any unlawful means to release Raymond. ISF president Hassan Khan Niazi said if the government provided safe passage to Raymond, they would take law into their hands and kill every American present in the US Consulate by gaining entry into the Consulate.



Very well said ...If the Americans are here for killingz then the Loyal peoplz of Pakistan are going to take law within their hands and will send these evilz to the hell Insha-Allah...but if they are here for good then they are welcomed ...but these many peoplez here with suspicious activities are not for good but for spreading terrorism only ...
Peoplez now come to know that they are here to follow and kill those Pakistani kids/guyz who ran away from secret Cia terrorists training campz(especially in Afghanistan) and didnt follow the commands of their trainers.... These blackwater are given the task to kill them before they disclose the secrets to the public....


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## Roby

*Qartaba Chowk shooting: Families say they have been offered Green Cards*

*LAHORE: The brother of one of the three men, two of whom were killed by US citizen Raymond Davis and the third crushed by a car driven by his colleagues, on Thursday said that the family had been offered Green Cards and money for withdrawing the case.
*
Waseem, brother of Muhammad Faheem who was gunned down by Davis told the participants of a protest rally that the family did not want cash or any rewards. We will not accept anything like that. I am ready to give money to the Americans if they hand over Davis, he said.

Dr Fozia Siddiqi, sister of Dr Aafia Siddiqi, also addressed the protesters via telephone. She expressed her solidarity with the bereaved families and asked that the entire nation to support them.

A group of about 500 people including students, lawyers, doctors, and civil society members walked from Qartaba Chowk (where the incident had occurred) to the US Consulate. Once the protesters reached the Consulate they staged a sit-in and shouted slogans demanding a trial of the accused in the country. They demanded the Pakistani government not to hand over Davis to the US government, while asking that he be hanged for causing the death of three innocent citizens.

Bothers of the other two victims, Rasheed Haider, brother of Faizan Haider and Muhammad Sajjadul Rehman, brother of Ibadul Rehman also addressed the participants of the rally. Sajjadul Rehman said that it was time to speak up against atrocities committed by the US.

He alleged that Davis had told investigators about his accomplices, but the police have not made any arrests. In a charged speech, he asked the US to let the Pakistani courts hold Davis trial. Prove that you are the champion of human rights that you claim to be, Rehman said while addressing the US.

Rasheed Haider requested the people to continue supporting them in their cause.

They said that they did not have any hopes from the government but were confident that the Chief Justice of Pakistan (CJP) would ensure that justice is served.

All speakers, including family members of the deceased, also demanded CJP Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to take suo motu notice to ensure that the government does not favour the accused American. The protesters condemned the judicial magistrates court for granting bail to Davis for carrying illegal weapons.

The rally was led by Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf Lahore president, Mian Mahmoodul Rasheed.

Starting from Qartaba Chowk, the protesters reached the US Consulate after passing through Queens Road, The Mall, Race Course Road and Egerton Road. The participants shouted anti-US slogans through loud speakers installed on a mini truck. Announcements were also made to inviting passers-by to joint the rally, which were somewhat successful.

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## Awesome

Why is the USG resorting to bribing the families? It further makes them look more and more guilty.


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## American Eagle

The murder of the Governor of Punjab is indeed relevant, despite the hatred and venom with which the writer says these things. He justified killing the Governor for alleged religious reasons, epitomizing the drift toward religious anarchy which terrorism epitomizes.

As for Mr. Davis, is on a US Diplomatic Passport with a Pakistani VISA granted in Islamabad documenting him as a diplomat there on official business. The Interior Minister had admited such as porous leaks from whatever FO or Interior Ministry source leaked those docs to DAWN some days ago.

This back and forth will not resolve the Diplomatic Immunity due Mr. Davis. That remains at issue between the US Department of State and the Foreign Office of Paksitan which as I noted factually a few postings back has to obey International Law in the form of the Diplomatic Immunity Agreement and supporting treaties.



> Do you think the outside world trusts and respect such as this: They demanded the Pakistani government not to hand over Davis to the US government, while asking that he be hanged &#8220;for causing the death of three innocent citizens&#8221;.



*Mr. Davis had nothing to do with an accidential traffic death whatsoever. This is typical of the uninformed ranting in this diplimatic immunity matter.*


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## khurasaan1

bilalhaider said:


> _The governor of punjab was a traitor and sellout...
> the loyal people of Pakistan knowz who is traitor and sellout so they are taking very good care of them ...pplz of Pakistan are waiting anxiously that if the crisis of Egypt comes here ...they will hangup the traitors on the wall/poles..._
> 
> Please, do not feed the trolls here, this is disgusting and not the topic on hand. Please avoid giving your personal feelings about someone who has already been killed, and not being discussed as the topic here.



Im sorry bro I didn't want to hurt ure feelings but pplz are feeling like this.....cuz nobody is supposed to hurt anybodyz feelings...


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## afriend

Well.. the killings of tazeer and those two men in lahore are both equally important. Pakistan should let the justice take its own course in both cases. However in both cases GUILTY HAVE TO BE PUNISHED. be it an american citizen davis or any pakistani citizen.

And how can america ask them to release their citizen just because he is an american and that too on the basis of a STORY. the case have to be investigated and truth will come out, and infact the guys wehre robbers and was attacking him, he will have his justice.


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## 53fd

khurasaan1 said:


> Im sorry bro I didn't want to hurt ure feelings but pplz are feeling like this.....cuz nobody is supposed to hurt anybodyz feelings...



No, you didn't hurt my feelings. I didn't feel the guy was an angel, but he wasn't really a bad guy and didn't deserve what happened to him at all. But this is not the topic here, so let's not go there. Trolls here want the attention of Pakistanis' diverted to other issues, and not to focus on the issue being discussed here.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> The murder of the Governor of Punjab is indeed relevant, despite the hatred and venom with which the writer says these things. He justified killing the Governor for alleged religious reasons, epitomizing the drift toward religious anarchy which terrorism epitomizes.


The case is ongoing even against Qadri, he might have been showered with rose petals, but he is still being tried under the Pakistani law. He is not off, nor has been suggested that he would be off.



> As for Mr. Davis, is on a US Diplomatic Passport with a Pakistani VISA granted in Islamabad documenting him as a diplomat there on official business. The Interior Minister had admited such as porous leaks from whatever FO or Interior Ministry source leaked those docs to DAWN some days ago.


There is still some confusion on that, since now the USG admits that he is non-diplomatic. They have done the right thing by asking the FO to clarify on the matter. I think the FO will within the week.



> This back and forth will not resolve the Diplomatic Immunity due Mr. Davis. That remains at issue between the US Department of State and the Foreign Office of Paksitan which as I noted factually a few postings back has to obey International Law in the form of the Diplomatic Immunity Agreement and supporting treaties.



I personally would be okay with us violating the international conventions on this. Suppose he's guilty, all the evidence should be brought forward, perhaps we can get him to admit that he did this under orders from the USG. His guilt should be established. But due to the international conventions we will let him go, not until we've totally exposed him or his bosses in Washington.

Likewise if he's innocent, we can exonerate him of murder and officially declare he acted in self-defence.

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## khurasaan1

Asim Aquil said:


> So far as the situation stands the USG has admitted that he's a consular staff not diplomatic staff.
> 
> They have solidified the argument about his diplomatic status. Now they are arguing that whether or not he deserves immunity regardless of that.
> 
> As you can read from the Vienna conventions posted above, those immunities do not extend to civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state. Not for consular staff. Which I repeat, the USG has called him a consular staff, which I repeat is a non-diplomatic status.



so this is clear that he dont deserves no diplomatic immunity status...
anywayz based on human rights violations even the king dont deserves immunity status cuz this goes against the justice...if US will keep on insisting the release of Raymond Davis...this means that they have no human values and they are just butchers and can kill anybody they want to...
They are trying to impose the rule of Might is right...umm


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## American Eagle

*As you can read from the Vienna conventions posted above, those immunities do not extend to civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state. Not for consular staff. Which I repeat, the USG has called him a consular staff, which I repeat is a non-diplomatic status*

Wrong again. Consular, administrative and related staff are defined in as covered Diplomatic Immunity covered...someone there in Pakistan is arguing with established internation law and treaties to claim otherwise...but it simply ain't so.

Again, these are the type hocus pokus non logical and dishonest sayings that leave the world marveling at the lack of respect for Diplomatic Immunity which all nations otherwise observe worldwide.



> Under the Vienna Convention, the only way a diplomat could be prosecuted for a crime is if his own state expressly waives the immunity. Yet, it could be charactericed as an irrelevant provision that would hardly be enforced regardless of how heinous the offence is. In the case of Raymond Davis, the US government has already raised the issue of diplomatic immunity. Assuming Raymond Davis is a diplomat, the demand is legal. Moreover, I cannot think of many states that would waive this immunity to enable *prosecution of its diplomats in a foreign country.[/*COLOR]




The Pakistani Foreign Office, ie, the Government of Pakistan, not its sub court system, is the liable decision marker to recognize diplomatic immunity, and that responsibility cannot be passed down to it's court system. You cannot try a case which the US government officially denies in aserting Diplomatic Immunity, not allowed under the Geneva Convention and assocaited Treaties.

Meanwhile the investigation of the now identified by Pakistani police two robbers who had a history as robberes is ongoing and will be used to clear the air, so to speak, ere long. 

Two men point a guns at one man, threaten his life and ask for his money and see how friendly a reception you will get. Self defense is an automatic response by any of us. All the Pakistanis I knew when serving with the old US Embassy in Karachi were bravel souls and would never have let anyone rob them without a fight.


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## khurasaan1

Iam very sad to hear that the US have no justice for humans ..they alwayz wanna follow the rule of "Might is right"
very very sad...indeed


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

The Best way to save Davis now is to buy some time so tht the issue loses some heat and the families might overcome the grief and perhaps also accept the compensations...!

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> *As you can read from the Vienna conventions posted above, those immunities do not extend to civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state. Not for consular staff. Which I repeat, the USG has called him a consular staff, which I repeat is a non-diplomatic status*
> 
> Wrong again. Consular, administrative and related staff are defined in as covered Diplomatic Immunity covered...someone there in Pakistan is arguing with established internation law and treaties to claim otherwise...but it simply ain't so.
> 
> Again, these are the type hocus pokus non logical and dishonest sayings that leave the world marveling at the lack of respect for Diplomatic Immunity which all nations otherwise observe worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani Foreign Office, ie, the Government of Pakistan, not its sub court system, is the liable decision marker to recognize diplomatic immunity, and that responsibility cannot be passed down to it's court system.


How can you not read the words "*except from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state*"

That means he gets no immunity.

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## khurasaan1

American Eagle said:


> *As you can read from the Vienna conventions posted above, those immunities do not extend to civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state. Not for consular staff. Which I repeat, the USG has called him a consular staff, which I repeat is a non-diplomatic status*
> 
> Wrong again. Consular, administrative and related staff are defined in as covered Diplomatic Immunity covered...someone there in Pakistan is arguing with established internation law and treaties to claim otherwise...but it simply ain't so.
> 
> Again, these are the type hocus pokus non logical and dishonest sayings that leave the world marveling at the lack of respect for Diplomatic Immunity which all nations otherwise observe worldwide.



It is sad to hear that ure guy is involved in killing of humans..If u dont mind and elaborate something pplz might want to know
Was he a diplomat or counsular or both ?
what kind of Passport he was holing?
and what visa he was having?
Does a diplomat have immunity for anything he do ..like killing anybody other than defence?
what ure human rights rules(justice) say if a diplomat kills anybody other than defence he still should be granted immunity from punishment? 
I hope if he not guilty he be released...
but really pplz r shocked here that Americans(especially diplomats) can do this...


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## Awesome

Not to mention that the FO Manual clearly states that the technical and administrative staff will not get immunity. Something that the USG was fully aware of at the time of sending its staff to Pakistan.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> *As you can read from the Vienna conventions posted above, those immunities do not extend to civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state. Not for consular staff. Which I repeat, the USG has called him a consular staff, which I repeat is a non-diplomatic status*
> 
> Wrong again. Consular, administrative and related staff are defined in as covered Diplomatic Immunity covered...someone there in Pakistan is arguing with established internation law and treaties to claim otherwise...but it simply ain't so.
> 
> Again, these are the type hocus pokus non logical and dishonest sayings that leave the world marveling at the lack of respect for Diplomatic Immunity which all nations otherwise observe worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani Foreign Office, ie, the Government of Pakistan, not its sub court system, is the liable decision marker to recognize diplomatic immunity, and that responsibility cannot be passed down to it's court system. You cannot try a case which the US government officially denies in aserting Diplomatic Immunity, not allowed under the Geneva Convention and assocaited Treaties.
> 
> Meanwhile the investigation of the now identified by Pakistani police two robbers who had a history as robberes is ongoing and will be used to clear the air, so to speak, ere long.
> 
> Two men point a guns at one man, threaten his life and ask for his money and see how friendly a reception you will get. Self defense is an automatic response by any of us. All the Pakistanis I knew when serving with the old US Embassy in Karachi were bravel souls and would never have let anyone rob them without a fight.


Again you said "diplomat" where as your government admitted he is non-diplomatic staff.


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## Rafael

American Eagle sire, You have lost it completely. I suggest you to take some time off, have some beer, then come back and start making some sense!


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## American Eagle

I suggest you read this article by a Lahore lawyer who earned his law degree here in the USA.

Ascertaining Raymond Davis?s identity &#8211; The Express Tribune

You may have to copy and paste the above subject line to find this article on the Internet.

At issue is Mr. Davis having Diplomatic Immunity, which the US Ambassador and the US Department of State say he does under Article 31 of the Geneva Convention and associated International Treaties. 

All else is then moot.


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> I suggest you read this article by a Lahore lawyer who earned his law degree here in the USA.
> 
> Ascertaining Raymond Davis?s identity &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> You may have to copy and paste the above subject line to find this article on the Internet.
> 
> At issue is Mr. Davis having Diplomatic Immunity, which the US Ambassador and the US Department of State say he does under Article 31 of the Geneva Convention and associated International Treaties.
> 
> All else is then moot.


Yes but we were all assuming he has diplomatic status till now... The USG TODAY admitted his non-diplomatic status. Even I was the first one to say that if he has immunity then there's no way you can jail him no matter what he did till his immunity is not waived.

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## Rafael

American Eagle said:


> I suggest you read this article by a Lahore lawyer who earned his law degree here in the USA.
> 
> Ascertaining Raymond Davis?s identity  The Express Tribune
> 
> At issue is Mr. Davis having Diplomatic Immunity, which the US Ambassador and the US Department of State say he does under Article 31 of the Geneva Convention and associated International Treaties.
> 
> All else is then moot.



Yeah right, without going through the article I know that you are cherry picking stuff which suits your point of view. Rest all is bullshit. What about other reports?

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## Awesome

Essentially the USG is saying he has no diplomatic status but has diplomatic immunity anyway 

This will not fly.

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## American Eagle

ISLAMABAD: The US embassy on Thursday (Feb. 3, 2011) expressed displeasure at the remand extension of Raymond Davis by a Lahore magistrate for another eight days. 

*This morning, the American diplomat was remanded in court without notice to the US government, without his lawyer present, and without translation assistance. He was denied due process and a fair hearing, a statement by the US embassy said.*

The Government of Pakistan must comply with its obligations under international and Pakistani law and ensure that he has immunity from criminal jurisdiction, it added.


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## 53fd

_Essentially the USG is saying he has no diplomatic status but has diplomatic immunity anyway 

This will not fly._

No Asim Aquil, you are wrong. The word of American Eagle clearly has clear precedence over the statements of the US government, and is legal proof that Davis has immunity... *cough cough sarcasm


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> ISLAMABAD: The US embassy on Thursday (Feb. 3, 2011) expressed displeasure at the remand extension of Raymond Davis by a Lahore magistrate for another eight days.
> 
> *This morning, the American diplomat was remanded in court without notice to the US government, without his lawyer present, and without translation assistance. He was denied due process and a fair hearing, a statement by the US embassy said.*
> 
> The Government of Pakistan must comply with its obligations under international and Pakistani law and ensure that he has immunity from criminal jurisdiction, it added.


The letter to the FO said "Consular Staff"

So essentially you need to get the US embassy in line as well as to whether he is a diplomat of a consular staff?

I would appreciate you presenting links with all the quotes you are making here.

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## Awesome

> The dispatch (from the US embassy) further stated that *although not all embassy and consulate staffers in Pakistan have the diplomatic status, it cannot be concluded that this annuls the diplomatic immunities under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations.* (My Note: See, the same argument, no diplomatic status but immunity applies anyway according to them)
> 
> The US government further demanded Pakistan to clarify the situation and to not leave the resolution of the issue on the courts.
> 
> The US government emphasised that if Raymond Davis&#8217; diplomatic status cannot be established then the *issue should be resolved bilaterally*. &#8212; DawnNews



Raymond Davis? diplomatic status &#8216;dubious&#8217;: govt sources | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

They are desperate to not let it go to court

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## 53fd

_The dispatch (from the US embassy) further stated that *although not all embassy and consulate staffers in Pakistan have the diplomatic status, it cannot be concluded that this annuls the diplomatic immunities under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations.* 

The US government further demanded Pakistan to clarify the situation and to not leave the resolution of the issue on the courts.

The US government emphasised that if Raymond Davis&#8217; diplomatic status cannot be established then the issue should be resolved bilaterally. &#8212; DawnNews_

I think the most important point is that diplomat status and immunity in this case is established by the receiving state, in this case GOP, not the USG. As a diplomatic card was not issued to Davis by the FO, and that the Pakistani FO does not grant diplomatic status to consulate staffers, as well as Technical and Administrative Staff to the embassy; there is no way Davis can be treated as a diplomat or has immunity in Pakistan. The US clearly knew this before sending him on his assignment to Pakistan. If he had not been in Mozang Chungi (a shady part of Lahore) involved in suspicious activities, he wouldn't have had to seen this day today.


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## VelocuR

How interesting. 

Not only Raymond Davis (Steven), other agents need to be caught. 'Robbers' should do similar to spoil it.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Raymond Davis? diplomatic status dubious: govt sources | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia
> 
> They are desperate to not let it go to court



Asim: What is the likelihood is that Davis will be determined to be covered by diplomatic immunity and thus not be put on trial? I would say pretty high he will be let go.

Why do I think that? Becasue Pakistan (government, military, economy) cannot bear the inevitable consequences if they don't let him go. Who needs a Pyrrhic victory?


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Asim: What is the likelihood is that Davis will be determined to be covered by diplomatic immunity and thus not be put on trial? I would say pretty high he will be let go.
> 
> Why do I think that? Becasue Pakistan (government, military, economy) cannot bear the inevitable consequences if they don't let him go. Who needs a Pyrrhic victory?



He would be freed that is one thing. The reality cant be changed that is another thing.


We would not like to stir the situation mmm that is also one thing. what will be consequences if we put him to trial ???

Opinion about that slightly differs from nationality to nationality of the posters.


*So what in your opinion Consequences could be???*

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## ashok321

Jana said:


> He would be freed that is one thing. The reality cant be changed that is another thing.
> 
> 
> We would not like to stir the situation mmm that is also one thing. what will be consequences if we put him to trial ???
> 
> Opinion about that slightly differs from nationality to nationality of the posters.
> 
> 
> *So what in your opinion Consequences could be???*



Americans would start wondering how are we giving billions of dollars to Pakistan, the nation who does not respect the international law.

THose K-L funds would stop!

Davis imprisoned or 7.5 billions?
What is good for GOP?


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## ashok321

*Raymond&#8217;s original passport in Punjab govt&#8217;s custody: Malik*


Dunya TV Latest Video - pakistan


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Asim: What is the likelihood is that Davis will be determined to be covered by diplomatic immunity and thus not be put on trial? I would say pretty high he will be let go.
> 
> Why do I think that? Becasue Pakistan (government, military, economy) cannot bear the inevitable consequences if they don't let him go. Who needs a Pyrrhic victory?


Even if immunity is proven, I wish the case goes to court, his guilt or innocence is determined and then he should be let go (whether guilty or not).

Fundamentally that will put the ball in the USG court whether or not they want to waiver his immunity now that he has gone on trial and his guilt has been proven.


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## ashok321

Asim Aquil said:


> Even if immunity is proven




If that (above) happens, there can not be any trial - unless n otherwise GOP has doggedly determined to trample the Vienna convention and in the process loose its reputation (if any) in the comity of nations.......not to mention the USD piles it gets yearly from Uncle Sam.


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## Awesome

ashok321 said:


> If that (above) happens, there can not be any trial - unless n otherwise GOP has doggedly determined to trample the Vienna convention and in the process loose its reputation (if any) in the comity of nations.......not to mention the USD piles it gets yearly from Uncle Sam.


US won't stop the aid, it gives aid for its own benefit... How will he control Zardari n all?

If it does, the party's on me.

Anyway... I think it can still be argued that the immunity is not from prosecution, only sentencing.


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## Peregrine

ashok321 said:


> Americans would start wondering how are we giving billions of dollars to Pakistan, *the nation who does not respect the international law.*
> 
> THose K-L funds would stop!
> 
> Davis imprisoned or 7.5 billions?
> What is good for GOP?


This is what the court is trying to determine whether the International law is applicable here or not until then it would be futile to point fingers at Pakistan for breaching Internal norms of Diplomacy. So far nothing substantial has been established by the Americans which could ferret out the truth about Raymond's entitlement for diplomatic immunity.


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## Spring Onion

ashok321 said:


> Americans would start wondering how are we giving billions of dollars to Pakistan, the nation who does not respect the international law.
> 
> THose K-L funds would stop!
> 
> Davis imprisoned or 7.5 billions?
> What is good for GOP?



1. we had been hearing this aid shaid drama for long so they should stop it that is not a big consequence for us (the general Pakistani+Army too because just yesterday the army had not received a PENNY Yet under CSF)


2. International Law? Which international law? he is non-diplomat running a private spy Co. 

3. He has been using banned bullet. banned according to same International Law.


4. America a country that has been violating all International Human rights laws . does Gitmo ring a bell?


So these points are lame.


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## Bratva

*Investigators see Davis act as excessive, disproportionate

Updated at 1535 PST Friday, February 04, 2011



LAHORE: Police investigators into the double murder case of American killer Raymond Davis have submitted their initial report to the Punjab government, Geo News reported on Friday.

The government sources informed Geo News that investigators did not find the US killer&#8217;s claim of self-defence convincing.

Instead, the investigators see his act as an excessive and disproportionate use of force, which is not covered in the definition of self-defence as per the law of the land.

It also added that the US Consulate is mum over the driver and the vehicle that crushed Amadur Rehman.

Investigators see Davis act as excessive, disproportionate
*

P.S. Pakistani Police is incompetent, Americans can't trust their investigations,as they were not able to stop the Murder of Salman Taseer, and as they are not able to stop terrorists attack most of the times, so Mr Davis made their work easy and killed some scum bags, Mr.Davis Is still innocent, He killed two robbers, who tried to Rob him, He has a diplomatic immunity, He can do what ever he wants under diplomatic umbrella . 

Just trying to make American Eagle life easy, so that he dont have to repeat things again after reading this thing


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## ashok321

_Anyway... I think it can still be argued that the immunity is not from prosecution, only sentencing._


Pakistani diplomat in Spain was caught with heroin in 1975, but he was let off without being prosecuted.

It is not if its the same goose or gender sauce, but clearly laid out terms in the convention.


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## Thomas

Asim Aquil said:


> How can you not read the words "*except from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving state*"
> 
> That means he gets no immunity.




did your Interior Minister Rehman Malik not stand up in front of your national assembly as this article says and say what is quoted? 

Malik clears the air on Davis? immunity &#8211; The Express Tribune

*Malik clears the air on Davis&#8217; immunity 
By Irfan Ghauri / Rana Tanveer
Published: February 3, 2011*








ISLAMABAD/LAHORE:The government has corroborated the stance of US authorities on the status of Lahore double shooting accused Raymond Davis as a diplomat. Supplementing a statement the US embassy released three days after the incident, Interior Minister Rehman Malik told members of the Senate on Wednesday that Davis does hold a diplomatic passport and visa.

&#8220;Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport &#8230; he travelled to Pakistan on a diplomatic visa given [to him] after clearance by security agencies of the country. Pakistan is a signatory of certain international protocols (on diplomatic immunity), which we cannot violate,&#8221; Malik said. He also claimed that he personally holds Davis&#8217; file, which contains all his records.

However, he said, following the court&#8217;s instruction, Davis&#8217; name had been added to the Exit Control List (ECL) and he cannot leave Pakistan. Reiterating the Pakistan Peoples Party&#8217;s (PPP) stance, he said that Davis will be treated in accordance with the law of the land and courts will decide his fate.

He said that central and provincial governments will not hinder court proceedings. &#8220;We will follow whatever the court has said and will provide all information regarding the case,&#8221; Malik said.

However, he said open debate on such a sensitive issue will be inappropriate as it might influence the Punjab police&#8217;s investigations. He said findings will be shared with the house as an investigation report comes from Punjab.

Witness statements recorded

Meanwhile, following orders of the Lahore High Court (LHC), the city police recorded the statements of all four witnesses in the double murder case.

LHC Chief Justice Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry had passed the order while disposing of a writ petition challenging investigations against Davis and accusing police of favouring the accused and not recording statements of witnesses, a mandatory requirement under section 161 of the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC).

Imran Haider, brother of Faizan Haider who was gunned down by Davis, has filed the petition. He said that after registering a FIR on his complaint, the police did not record his statement or those of other witnesses &#8220;to favour the accused&#8221;.

Haider had also submitted that the case requires a high-profile investigation team, comprising upright and reputable police officers.

The deceased&#8217; family members held a press conference and announced that they will hold a protest rally that will begin from the scene of the incident and culminate at the US consulate in Lahore.

In a related case, Justice Chaudhry directed a petitioner to approach the relevant district and sessions court that will hold Davis&#8217; trial for a request to insert provisions from the Anti-Terrorism Act (ATA) in the FIR registered against Davis. The petition was then disposed of.

Petitioner Advocate Rana Ilamudin Ghazi had sought an order that police insert provisions from the ATA and that Davis must be tried by a special anti-terrorism court.

Meanwhile, a petition filed before the LHC sought directives to the federal interior and foreign secretaries to disclose the nature of Davis&#8217; visa and information about all foreigners operating in Punjab.

Petitioner Advocate Noshab A Khan prayed to the court to direct both the federal secretaries to supply all necessary information to the Punjab interior secretary about foreigners in the province, their whereabouts, movements and the nature of their duties.

Arrest put on record

Lytton Road police has put Davis&#8217; arrest on record in the second FIR registered against him under charges of carrying an illegal pistol, police sources said.

The police registered a second FIR against him on January 29 but did not put his arrest on record. An investigation officer also said that his arrest was delayed for different reasons. &#8220;Firstly, his remand in the murder case lapses today, when he is due to appear before the court. We wanted him to appear before both the courts in one visit, owing to security reasons. Secondly, we were waiting for proof of legality of the weapon, which the US consulate hasn&#8217;t provided,&#8221; he said.

According to investigators, there is proof that Davis did not reside in the American consulate but in a rented building in Lahore Cantonment, with some other foreigners.

Meanwhile, Carmela Conroy, principal officer of the US consulate in Lahore, and her delegation met Davis in police custody.

The investigation team met Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tareen and discussed possibilities to identify the vehicle that reached to rescue Davis but fled after crushing a man.


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## logic

*Only embassy staff enjoy absolute immunity: Experts​*
*&#8220;What if a diplomat enters the White House and kills the American President and later claims immunity. Do you think immunity is available in such a case&#8230;absolutely not,&#8221; he contended.

&#8220;The immunity is only applicable when a diplomat performing official functions and it is not meant for benefiting individuals,&#8221; Zafarullah maintained.​*http://tribune.com.pk/story/113961/only-embassy-staff-enjoy-absolute-immunity-experts/


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## RescueRanger

This is getting boring now.

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## Thomas

logic said:


> *Only embassy staff enjoy absolute immunity: Experts​*
> *What if a diplomat enters the White House and kills the American President and later claims immunity. Do you think immunity is available in such a caseabsolutely not, he contended.
> 
> The immunity is only applicable when a diplomat performing official functions and it is not meant for benefiting individuals, Zafarullah maintained.​*Only embassy staff enjoy absolute immunity: Experts &#8211; The Express Tribune



Maybe you can answer the question posted above. did your interior minister not stand up in the national assembly and say what is quoted?

Malik clears the air on Davis? immunity &#8211; The Express Tribune

*"The government has corroborated the stance of US authorities on the status of Lahore double shooting accused Raymond Davis as a diplomat.

Supplementing a statement the US embassy released three days after the incident, Interior Minister Rehman Malik told members of the Senate on Wednesday that Davis does hold a diplomatic passport and visa.

Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport  he travelled to Pakistan on a diplomatic visa given [to him] after clearance by security agencies of the country. Pakistan is a signatory of certain international protocols (on diplomatic immunity), which we cannot violate, Malik said. He also claimed that he personally holds Davis file, which contains all his records."*


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## ashok321

Thomas said:


> Maybe you can answer the question posted above. did your interior minister not stand up in the national assembly and say what is quoted?
> 
> Malik clears the air on Davis? immunity  The Express Tribune
> 
> *"The government has corroborated the stance of US authorities on the status of Lahore double shooting accused Raymond Davis as a diplomat.
> 
> Supplementing a statement the US embassy released three days after the incident, Interior Minister Rehman Malik told members of the Senate on Wednesday that Davis does hold a diplomatic passport and visa.
> 
> Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport  he travelled to Pakistan on a diplomatic visa given [to him] after clearance by security agencies of the country. Pakistan is a signatory of certain international protocols (on diplomatic immunity), which we cannot violate, Malik said. He also claimed that he personally holds Davis file, which contains all his records."*



And he can not go back on his words - he will be liable till washington with these kind of words.


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## logic

*A legal view of immunity to Raymond Davis*​
ISLAMABAD: *Does Raymond Davis have diplomatic immunity? A simple answer is no, because he is not a diplomat*. Diplomatic immunity in laymans terms is a form of legal immunity held between governments through treaties, which guarantee that diplomats are given safe passage and considered immune from civil suits or criminal prosecution.

The governing instrument of International Law for diplomatic immunity is called Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961, and a lot has been said about this already in press and on TV. However no one has paid attention to a similar treaty of just two years later, called Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 which was adopted by Pakistan through Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act 1972.

This Convention governs immunities and privileges accorded to Consulate members and its staff. The word consular post is defined in Article 1 of 1963 Convention as any consulate general, consulate, vice consulate or consular agency, and consular officer is defined as any person, including the head of a consular post, entrusted in that capacity with the exercise of consular functions.

After understanding these two definitions given in Vienna Convention of 1963, one needs to read Article 41 (1) which says: Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.

A legal view of immunity to Raymond Davis

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## Manas

*The Friday Times:Raymond Davis: fact & fiction by Najam Sethis*

*Raymond Davis: fact & fiction*


The case of Raymond Davis has outraged the imagination and sentiment of Pakistanis mainly because of a distortion of key facts by powerful sections of the Pakistani media. It has also become a vicious ping pong game between the PPP and PMLN governments, with both trying to score nationalist points regardless of the consequences for political stability and national security. Ominously, though, it has soured a troubled relationship between Pakistan and the US who claim to be strategic partners in the region. Lets sift fact from fiction. 

Fiction: Mr Davis murdered two Pakistanis. He shot them in the back, suggesting he was not threatened by them. They were not robbers. Their handguns were licensed. Fact: Two men on a motorbike, armed with unlicensed pistols, held up Mr Davis car. He expertly shot them through the windscreen, stepped out and took pictures of the gunmen with weapons as evidence of self-defense. Later, an autopsy report showed that four out of seven bullets had hit the gunmen in the front, confirming the threat to him. The criminals had earlier robbed two passersby of their cell phones and money. 

*Fiction*: Mr Davis is not a diplomat because he doesnt have a diplomatic visa or status registered with the Foreign Office. Hence he cannot claim diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Conventions. *Fact*: Mr Davis has a Diplomatic Passport. His visa application by the US State Department to the Pakistan Embassy in Washington DC of 11 September 2009 lists him as a Diplomat who is on Official Business. The US government has claimed diplomatic immunity for him. This is the norm. For example, Pakistans Ambassador to Spain in 1975, Haroon ur Rashid Abbasi, was granted immunity following discovery of heroin from his suitcase.* Col Mohammad Hamid Pakistans military attaché in London in 2000, was caught having sex with a prostitute in his car in a public place. He invoked diplomatic immunity and avoided arrest. Mohammad Arshad Cheema, Pakistans First Secretary in Nepal, also invoked diplomatic immunity after 16kg of high inte4nsity RDX explosives were recovered from his house and he was suspected of being involved in the hijacking of Indian Airlines Flight IC-814. And so on.*

*Fiction*: Mr Davis was not in any imminent danger of grievous injury, let alone kidnapping or death, from the two young men. So he committed a murder and cannot plead self-defense. *Fact*: A murder necessitates a motive. What motive could Mr Davis have in killing two unknown people in broad daylight if they didnt threaten him in any way? More to the point, Westerners, especially Americans, risk all manner of threats while in Pakistan because of extreme anti-Americanism in the country for various reasons. At least 10 Americans have been killed by terrorists in Pakistan in the last thirty years, and US consulates in Karachi and Peshawar and the embassy in Islamabad have been attacked twice each. The US Principal Officer in Peshawar was attacked in 2008 and the Marriot Hotel was bombed. In addition, Iranian diplomats, Chinese engineers and UN workers have been killed or kidnapped by terrorists since 1990; the Sri Lankan cricket team was attacked in 2009, and 17 French Naval technicians were killed in Karachi in 2003. And so on. Under the circumstances, Mr Davis had every right to fear he might be kidnapped or killed by the two gunmen. The law relating to self defense is also clear, notwithstanding calibrations and qualifications in case law. If there is even a perceived threat of grievous bodily harm, let alone death, a person may be justified in countering it in any manner in self-defense. 

So where do we go from here?

The Punjab government has played a particularly dubious, nay devious, role from the outset. It pressurized the local police to arrest Mr Davis instead of verifying his diplomatic immunity and letting him go. It exploited anti-Americanism to embarrass the PPP government in Islamabad by putting the onus of responsibility for claiming diplomatic immunity on it. It nominated a public prosecutor who deliberately falsified information to enrage popular passions. The federal government, meanwhile, has been craven, inefficient and defensive to the point of opportunism. The end result is that US-Pak relations have soured significantly at a time when neither side can afford to be distracted from the main issues at hand.

In the end, however, the matter will have to be settled according to the facts of the situation in light of international and domestic law rather than passion and outrage. If the Federal Government should officially tell the court that Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity or the public prosecutor argue self-defense in his behalf, he should be a free man. 

The sooner this is done, the better. A states national interest is not served by passion or prejudice in the face of strategic interests. This must not be sacrificed at the altar of party politics. Equally, the US must stop pressurizing Pakistan to accept trigger happy cowboys on intelligence operations as unaccountable diplomats. If this Ugly American syndrome persists, and if CIA or Blackwater killers and Special Ops men run amuck in Pakistan, as they did in Iraq, there will be more rage and violence on the street, and both Pakistan and the US will be net losers.

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## Thomas

logic said:


> *A legal view of immunity to Raymond Davis*​
> ISLAMABAD: *Does Raymond Davis have diplomatic immunity? A simple answer is no, because he is not a diplomat*. Diplomatic immunity in layman&#8217;s terms is a form of legal immunity held between governments through treaties, which guarantee that diplomats are given safe passage and considered immune from civil suits or criminal prosecution
> 
> A legal view of immunity to Raymond Davis




I notice you keep going back to what so called legal experts say. And completly ignore what your own interior minister (who's department is responsible for such determinations) says.


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## logic

Here is a brief outline on the recent major events that have taken place during the mysterious case of Raymond Davis:

Jan 26: Raymond Davis, an American official, allegedly shot two robbers in self-defence in a market area in Lahore. Davis called for help and the second vehicle got into a fatal accident with a pedestrian and fled the scene. Onlookers gathered around Davis and took his footage and the bullet-ridden vehicle. Police came to the scene and took Davis into custody for a statement.

Jan 27: Raymond Davis is held by police authorities for the shootings. Different sources claim that Davis is not a diplomat and cannot carry any type of weapons. The US embassy confirms his employment as a technical adviser. However, police authorities did say that Davis was held-up at gunpoint and reacted in self-defence.

Jan 29: US officials claim that Raymond Davis has diplomatic status in Pakistan, referring to Vienna Convention. But sources said that Davis did not have diplomatic status per se. Davis is remanded still under custody with Pakistani police authorities.

Jan 30: Prime Minister Yousef Gilani does not comment on the Davis arrest until officials confirm his identity and status in Pakistan as a foreigner. Many media personnel allege that the vague circumstances surrounding Davis could possibly mean that Davis might be a CIA agent.

Jan 31: ABC News in the US and the Huffington Post report that Davis was part of a security firm in Florida, which had a vague background leading to more reports of a possible CIA connection. The government has not decided to hand in Raymond David to US officials. Local lawyers call for a trial.

Feb 1: President Zardari announces that Pakistan will decide the fate of Raymond Davis while the US demands the diplomat Raymond Davis returned. Lahore High Court blocks any moves made by international parties to remove Raymond Davis from Pakistans custody. Interior Minister Rehman Malik reiterates that Pakistan will make the decision on Davis. Prime Minister Gilani says that US pressure is not part of the decision making process for the Davis case.

Feb 2: Interior Minister Rehman Malik states that Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport. The LHC extends Daviss remand in Pakistani custody.

Feb 3: US embassy states that Davis has diplomatic immunity.

Feb 4: Pakistani government sources claim that Raymond Daviss diplomatic immunity seems dubious.

Timeline: The Raymond Davis Case | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## logic

*Lahore HC moved for acquiring complete details of foreign nationals in Pakistan​*http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/203985


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## ashok321

> Feb 4: Pakistani government sources claim that Raymond Davis&#8217;s diplomatic immunity seems &#8220;dubious.&#8221;






> The government has corroborated the stance of US authorities on the status of Lahore double shooting accused Raymond Davis as a diplomat. Supplementing a statement the US embassy released three days after the incident, Interior Minister Rehman Malik told members of the Senate on Wednesday that Davis does hold a diplomatic passport and visa.
> 
> &#8220;Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport &#8230; he travelled to Pakistan on a diplomatic visa given [to him] after clearance by security agencies of the country. Pakistan is a signatory of certain international protocols (on diplomatic immunity), which we cannot violate,&#8221; Malik said. He also claimed that he personally holds Davis&#8217; file, which contains all his records.



Why above contradiction?


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## ashok321

> Interior minister Rehman Malik today confirmed that the American is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport. That will make it difficult for the courts in Lahore to hold him in remand much longer.



The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | US dilemma for Pakistan


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Why do I think that? Becasue Pakistan (government, military, economy) cannot bear the inevitable consequences if they don't let him go. Who needs a Pyrrhic victory?



How far will the US to go to jeopardize the relationship with Pakistan on the war in Afghanistan, nuclear security and cooperation over terrorism, for one man, if he is indeed not found to have diplomatic immunity.

And what of the reports that Raymond Davis isn't his real name? If those are true, how can an individual who presented a false identity, and whose duties at the American Embassy are unclear, be granted diplomatic immunity when he wasn't issued a diplomatic visa to begin with?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thomas said:


> did your Interior Minister Rehman Malik not stand up in front of your national assembly as this article says and say what is quoted?
> 
> Malik clears the air on Davis? immunity &#8211; The Express Tribune


Yes, that statement is interesting, because the images of RD's passport do not show a diplomatic visa, and the article posted today by Asim quoting the US embassy indicates that they admitted Pakistan did not issue Davis a diplomatic visa. However, Davis did possess a diplomatic passport, but a diplomatic passport alone is not a guarantee of diplomatic immunity - the host nation has to accept diplomatic status of the individual by issuing a diplomatic visa.

So now, per the US embassy statement, the argument is over the interpretation of the conventions governing diplomatic immunity, and whether RD's job description (whatever it is found out to be) automatically provides him diplomatic immunity in this particular crime.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Raymond Davis isn't his real name - but he presented a visa indicating that was his identity - that is fraud and deceit, on part of Davis and on the part of the US government if they knowingly abetted this. 

Why should he enjoy any diplomatic rights regardless of what his passport or visa are? States posting diplomats to other nations should act honestly and above board - posting officials with fraudulent documents and identities is a violation of trust and laws with the host nation.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How far will the US to go to jeopardize the relationship with Pakistan on the war in Afghanistan, nuclear security and cooperation over terrorism, for one man, if he is indeed not found to have diplomatic immunity.



Good point, but then, how far can Pakistan push the US over one man because of all these other important links?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Good point, but then, how far can Pakistan push the US over one man because of all these other important links?



That will depend upon the GoP. I think most Pakistanis would argue 'screw the aid and screw cooperation with the US', and have been for a while.

From an economic POV, the only reason Pakistan needs US/IMF aid is because the government refuses to enact fiscal reforms, especially tax base reforms, that would alleviate the resource crunch significantly, though they would cause some short term inflationary impact. 

Will the US come to a similar conclusion with respect to its reliance on Pakistani support in the War in Afghanistan, and its desire to not see Pakistan destabilized to the point where its nuclear arsenal/materials are at risk?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thomas said:


> I notice you keep going back to what so called legal experts say. And completly ignore what your own interior minister (who's department is responsible for such determinations) says.



Very few people put stock in what Rehman Malik has to say now, given his utter incompetence, flip flopping and repeated down right incorrect statements.

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## A1Kaid

Patriot said:


> Whether he is guilty or not - If he has diplomatic immunity then we will have to release him - It's sad but we have to follow International Rules otherwise our diplomats will receive similar treatment.





"Our" diplomats aren't going around killing people.

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## Thomas

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Raymond Davis isn't his real name - but he presented a visa indicating that was his identity - that is fraud and deceit, on part of Davis and on the part of the US government if they knowingly abetted this.
> 
> Why should he enjoy any diplomatic rights regardless of what his passport or visa are? States posting diplomats to other nations should act honestly and above board - posting officials with fraudulent documents and identities is a violation of trust and laws with the host nation.



It is common practice with Governments around the world to post people to their embassies and not use their real names. Generally these people work with intelligence agencies. In Pakistan because of the security situation I can see the U.S. Government allowing its security contractors to use an alias. Do you not think that the ISI agents in India and other places do not do the same?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thomas said:


> It is common practice with Governments around the world to post people to their embassies and not use their real names. Generally these people work with intelligence agencies. In Pakistan because of the security situation I can see the U.S. Government allowing its security contractors to use an alias. Do you not think that the ISI agents in India and other places do not do the same?



Then they are spies, not diplomats ...

And outside of spies, I see no point in falsifying the identity of embassy/consular staff - what advantage can you point out?

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## logic

Thomas said:


> It is common practice with Governments around the world to post people to their embassies and not use their real names. Generally these people work with intelligence agencies. In Pakistan because of the security situation I can see the U.S. Government allowing its security contractors to use an alias. Do you not think that the ISI agents in India and other places do not do the same?



But then they do not claim immunity either.

This idea is total absurd that you can go round killing people and then when you are arrested you present your *BLUE PETER BADGE* (Get out of jail card).


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thomas said:


> It is common practice with Governments around the world to post people to their embassies and not use their real names. Generally these people work with intelligence agencies. In Pakistan because of the security situation I can see the U.S. Government allowing its security contractors to use an alias. Do you not think that the ISI agents in India and other places do not do the same?



BTW, I believe you are incorrect when you argue that it is 'common practice' because false identities would make background checks (by host governments) on individuals applying for visas irrelevant. Pakistani visas for embassy/consular staff are issued after background checks and clearance from the relevant agencies, so there is indeed an expectation that the identities will not be fraudulent.

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## Thomas

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Then they are spies, not diplomats ...
> 
> And outside of spies, I see no point in falsifying the identity of embassy/consular staff - what advantage can you point out?



Being targeted for terrorism by extremists outside of Pakistan. The U.S. is a pretty open society when it comes to information. It is not hard to track someone down if you know their real name. Give me someones name here in the U.S. and within 5 min's I can most likely tell you their addresses for the last 10+ years all their Phone numbers (even if unlisted). And possibly a Google street view picture of their current house.

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## Thomas

logic said:


> But then they do not claim immunity either.



actually they do, plenty of precedent for that. Doing a quick Google search will confirm it.


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## A1Kaid

ashok321 said:


> Americans would start wondering how are we giving billions of dollars to Pakistan, the nation who does not respect the international law.
> 
> THose K-L funds would stop!
> 
> Davis imprisoned or 7.5 billions?
> What is good for GOP?





Give it a rest, Americans are wondering about their personal matters not international affairs nor laws. 

As far as countries following international law US has been a big violator of international law in recent history; along with Israel (one of the highest violators of international law and one of the largest recipient of US aid).

K-L funds stopping? No one really gives a damn and its effectiveness and contribution to Pakistan's economic livelihood is overestimated.


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## American Eagle

The core issue remains the fact that Mr. Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport with valid Pakistani Foreign Office VISA thereon, otherwise he could not//would not have been able to be in country there in Pakistan.

That two robbers failed in an armed stick up of Raymond Davis, who for fear of his life and limb, fought back is completely ignored by the writing public here in the main it seems.

There is a tired old joke which best describes some on this site and their "blather." An American victum is buried in a hole up to his neck, cannot move arms or legs, these are buried under ground. A group of six or so Pakistanis are circling the buried up to his neck American, hitting him all over parts of his only exposed part, his head. Whack, thump, whack. Then one "brave" Pakistani bends down close to the buried up to his neck American and says in his face: You are a vile person and we will 'get even' with you...at which point the buried American reaches his head forward and bites the Pakistani's ear off. The wounded Pakistani pulls back in a stream of blood and pain and he and his five bully Pakistani thugs shout: "Fight fair American!"

Nothing has changed on behalf of the US facts per our US Ambassador and the US Department of State regarding the fact that Ramond Davis has Diplomatic Immunity.

Some folks on this thread, largely from outside Pakistan, safe in overseas Western style democracy locations, are visibly bent on trying to "hang" Mr. Davis to satisfy what in fact is a tiny crowd of tire burners in Lahore. They constitute the fictional ring of Pakistanis circling and beating up a buried up to his neck Raymond Davis, who both has Diplomatic Immunity and who only defended himself from two armed robbers who threatened his life and limb in their failed stick up attempt.


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## ashok321

A1Kaid said:


> Give it a rest, Americans are wondering about their personal matters not international affairs nor laws.
> 
> As far as countries following international law US has been a big violator of international law in recent history; along with Israel (one of the highest violators of international law and one of the largest recipient of US aid).
> 
> K-L funds stopping? No one really gives a damn and their effectiveness and contribution to Pakistan's economic livelihood are overestimated.




Why does not Pakistan openly stop recieving K-L funds ? This was the tag line after all of Kerry initially and then Hillary clinton.....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thomas said:


> Being targeted for terrorism by extremists outside of Pakistan. The U.S. is a pretty open society when it comes to information. It is not hard to track someone down if you know their real name. Give me someones name here in the U.S. and within 5 min's I can most likely tell you their addresses for the last 10+ years all their Phone numbers (even if unlisted). And possibly a Google street view picture of their current house.



Yet almost all senior level diplomats and consular staff (Ambassadors, consul-generals etc.) in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq have not used 'false' identities - and these are individuals who are high profile and in the press frequently.

If anything, these people (or their families) would be the ones at highest risk, and would, under your argument, have seen repeated attacks against them and/or their families. But that is not the case, and these people continue to use their real names, rather than fraudulent identities.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

American Eagle said:


> The core issue remains the fact that Mr. Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport with valid Pakistani Foreign Office VISA thereon, otherwise he could not//would not have been able to be in country there in Pakistan.


Yet to be established by the courts.


> That two robbers failed in an armed stick up of Raymond Davis, who for fear of his life and limb, fought back is completely ignored by the writing public here in the main it seems.


Yet to be established by the courts.



> There is a tired old joke which best describes some on this site and their "blather." An American victum is buried in a hole up to his neck, cannot move arms or legs, these are buried under ground. A group of six or so Pakistanis are circling the buried up to his neck American, hitting him all over parts of his only exposed part, his head. Whack, thump, whack. Then one "brave" Pakistani bends down close to the buried up to his neck American and says in his face: You are a vile person and we will 'get even' with you...at which point the buried American reaches his head forward and bites the Pakistani's ear off. The wounded Pakistani pulls back in a stream of blood and pain and he and his five bully Pakistani thugs shout: "Fight fair American!"


Nonsensical and irrelevant blather.



> Nothing has changed on behalf of the US facts per our US Ambassador and the US Department of State regarding the fact that Ramond Davis has Diplomatic Immunity.


They have admitted that RD was not issued a diplomatic visa. The case now rests on the interpretation of the relevant conventions governing diplomatic immunity with respect to RD's actual job position and his actions in the concerned event.


> Some folks on this thread, largely from outside Pakistan, safe in overseas Western style democracy locations, are visibly bent on trying to "hang" Mr. Davis to satisfy what in fact is a tiny crowd of tire burners in Lahore. They constitute the fictional ring of Pakistanis circling and beating up a buried up to his neck Raymond Davis, who both has Diplomatic Immunity and who only defended himself from two armed robbers who threatened his life and limb in their failed stick up attempt.


I can't read minds, on my part I would like the courts to determine RD's immunity based on his actual job at the embassy/consulate, and take into account the fact that he potentially used a fraudulent identity and passport to obtain a visa and entry to Pakistan. I would like the courts to perform their jobs without the US government forcing the GoP to give RD a 'get out of jail free card' when he many not in fact deserve it.

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## A1Kaid

American Eagle said:


> The core issue remains the fact that Mr. Davis is under a US Diplomatic Passport with valid Pakistani Foreign Office VISA thereon, otherwise he could not//would not have been able to be in country there in Pakistan.
> 
> That two robbers failed in an armed stick up of Raymond Davis, who for fear of his life and limb, fought back is completely ignored by the writing public here in the main it seems.
> 
> There is a *tired old joke* which best describes some on this site and their "blather." An American victum is buried in a hole up to his neck, cannot move arms or legs, these are buried under ground. A group of six or so Pakistanis are circling the buried up to his neck American, hitting him all over parts of his only exposed part, his head. Whack, thump, whack. Then one "brave" Pakistani bends down close to the buried up to his neck American and says in his face: You are a vile person and we will 'get even' with you...at which point the buried American reaches his head forward and bites the Pakistani's ear off. The wounded Pakistani pulls back in a stream of blood and pain and he and his five bully Pakistani thugs shout: "Fight fair American!"
> 
> Nothing has changed on behalf of the US facts per our US Ambassador and the US Department of State regarding the fact that Ramond Davis has Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Some folks on this thread, largely from outside Pakistan, safe in overseas Western style democracy locations, are visibly bent on trying to "hang" Mr. Davis to satisfy what in fact is a tiny crowd of tire burners in Lahore. They constitute the fictional ring of Pakistanis circling and beating up a buried up to his neck Raymond Davis, who both has Diplomatic Immunity and who only defended himself from two armed robbers who threatened his life and limb in their failed stick up attempt.




"tired old joke"


How tired is this joke?

Personally I think your just BSing, but if true then perhaps this very tired and long bs joke with little wit and intelligence runs rampant with your ilk and type, perhaps rampant among geopolitical institutions in US. Perhaps if you use this "joke" as a point to reflect on this situation then maybe it's not really a "joke" but an actual belief.


As far as Pakistan's relationship with America goes, who needs enemies when you have friends like this.


To put it simply Pakistani judiciary must investigate this incident and execute the law.

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## American Eagle

Under International Law the judiciary of Pakistan cannot stand in place of the Pakistani Foreign Office whose job it is to face up the the fact of Diplomatic Immunity.

Trying to loose this threshold fact in all this rhetoric is "your game" but it is the Pakistani Foreign Office which until this moment has failed to do it's duty.

No single nation can self change the International Diplomatic Immunity facts that recognize administrataive and consular staff as having Diplomatic Immunity.

Secondly, Pakistani's using media hype to try to avoid the hard fact that at issue were two identified as such now armed illegally common crooks who failed in this their four robbery attempt is astounding to the free world.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> Under International Law the judiciary of Pakistan cannot stand in place of the Pakistani Foreign Office whose job it is to face up the the fact of Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Trying to loose this threshold fact in all this rhetoric is "your game" but it is the Pakistani Foreign Office which until this moment has failed to do it's duty.
> 
> No single nation can self change the International Diplomatic Immunity facts that recognize administrataive and consular staff as having Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Secondly, Pakistani's using media hype to try to avoid the hard fact that at issue were two identified as such now armed illegally common crooks who failed in this their four robbery attempt is astounding to the free world.
> 
> *There is a tired old joke which best describes some on this site and their "blather." An American victum is buried in a hole up to his neck, cannot move arms or legs, these are buried under ground. A group of six or so Pakistanis are circling the buried up to his neck American, hitting him all over parts of his only exposed part, his head. Whack, thump, whack. Then one "brave" Pakistani bends down close to the buried up to his neck American and says in his face: You are a vile person and we will 'get even' with you...at which point the buried American reaches his head forward and bites the Pakistani's ear off. The wounded Pakistani pulls back in a stream of blood and pain and he and his five bully Pakistani thugs shout: "Fight fair American!"*



The subject is in judicial custody.
Any member of the forum that want to defend this cold blooded maniac can protest outside the court at his next hearing.

Only the courts will decide the matter now. FO the PM the President in fact the whole gang of thugs and goons have said the matter will be decided by court.
*
This not about US or Pakistan* this is about a cold blooded killer and his accomplice that collectively killed two people while crushing another biker to death.


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## A1Kaid

ashok321 said:


> Why does not Pakistan openly stop recieving K-L funds ? This was the tag line after all of Kerry initially and then Hillary clinton.....



"Why does not Pakistan"?


Because GoP led by Pres. Zardari, accepts the KL aid which apparently supports the a specific segment of the civilian sector. I hope that answers your very difficult question.


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## ashok321

A1Kaid said:


> "Why does not Pakistan"?
> 
> 
> Because GoP led by Pres. Zardari, accepts the KL aid which apparently supports the a specific segment of the civilian sector. I hope that answers your very difficult question.




One or the other reason - K-L ends up in Pakistan in Billions - which will be difficult to maintain once you refuse to set free an American........

You can not have it both ways.


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## A1Kaid

American Eagle said:


> Under International Law the judiciary of Pakistan cannot stand in place of the Pakistani Foreign Office whose job it is to face up the the fact of Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Trying to loose this threshold fact in all this rhetoric is "your game" but it is the Pakistani Foreign Office which until this moment has failed to do it's duty.
> 
> *No single nation can self change the International Diplomatic Immunity facts that recognize administrataive and consular staff as having Diplomatic Immunity.*
> 
> Secondly, Pakistani's using media hype to try to avoid the hard fact that at issue were two identified as such now armed illegally common crooks who failed in this their four robbery attempt is astounding to the free world.




I think most people understand this. Though the "robbery" claim has not been verified it is merely an allegation on the part of "Mr. Davis". 

The Police and Judicial investigation is taking place and we hopefully will know the truth.

If if turns out Mr. "Davis" possibly registered with a false name is assigned Diplomatic Immunity, then so be it.


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## American Eagle

The subject is the duty and international law responsibilities of the Pakistani Foreign Office, which is apart and separate from the Pakistani courts.

Last time the world looked the courts of Pakistan are not the Government of Pakistan and by no means are they outside of nor above International Law regarding Diplomatic Immunity.

Someone must be looking in a mirror to be shouting that someone is a "maniac."


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## A1Kaid

ashok321 said:


> One or the other reason - K-L ends up in Pakistan in Billions - which will be difficult to maintain once you refuse to set free an American........
> 
> You can not have it both ways.




You type as if your in charge of US Government policy or as if you sit or are the Chairman of the Foreign affairs committee in Congress.

What did I just tell you, nobody really gives a damn about K-L Bill it was the Americans who offered it, Pakistan didn't request it, K-L Bill is the bill founded by senators Kerry and Luger.

If you want K-L bill for Hindustan go and tell them, since you keep talking about K-L bill with such a passion in a thread about an American embassy worker killing two people in Pakistan.


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## logic

American Eagle said:


> The subject is the duty and international law responsibilities of the Pakistani Foreign Office, which is apart and separate from the Pakistani courts.
> 
> Last time the world looked the courts of Pakistan are not the Government of Pakistan and by no means are they outside of nor above International Law regarding Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Someone must be looking in a mirror to be shouting that someone is a "maniac."


cry as you may but the reality is the killer is in judicial custody facing two counts of murder and another count of carrying illegal firearm and only the courts will decide his fate.

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## 53fd

The people looking for immunity, we need to know two very basic things to ascertain his position:

1. What is the guy's real name (which isn't 'Raymond Davis' btw)?
2. What is the guy's *exact job description*?

Simply saying he has immunity without answering the above 2 questions does not cut it. I also realize that is exactly what the US government, and the US embassy in Pakistan is doing. This is not grounds for immunity. The End.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

American Eagle said:


> Under International Law the judiciary of Pakistan cannot stand in place of the Pakistani Foreign Office whose job it is to face up the the fact of Diplomatic Immunity.


I don't believe the judiciary is standing in place of the foreign office. The Foreign Office is not being prevented from clarifying Raymond Davis's status in front of the courts, establishing his diplomatic immunity, explaining the circumstances around his alleged identity and passport, and having the courts order his release.

What is likely happening is that the foreign office is attempting to determine whether the relevant conventions do indeed grant Davis diplomatic immunity given his job title, and is likely dealing with pressures from the US government, GoP and possible the military on the issue.



> Trying to loose this threshold fact in all this rhetoric is "your game" but it is the Pakistani Foreign Office which until this moment has failed to do it's duty.


Given the circumstances surrounding Davis, I don't believe it is a simple decision for the FO.



> No single nation can self change the International Diplomatic Immunity facts that recognize administrataive and consular staff as having Diplomatic Immunity.


I do not believe Pakistan is self-changing anything, but whether diplomatic immunity applies in RD's case is yet to be determined, and the FO and the courts are the relevant authorities to do that.


> Secondly, Pakistani's using media hype to try to avoid the hard fact that at issue were two identified as such now armed illegally common crooks who failed in this their four robbery attempt is astounding to the free world.


At least Pakistan is not using 'media hype' and concocted WMD evidence to launch an illegitimate war against another nation.

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## logic

*Pakistan refuses to reveal US official&#8217;s status, says matter is sub-judice: The Times of India*​
ISLAMABAD: As the US toughened its stance for the release of its citizen who killed two persons in Lahore, Pakistan's government has been reluctant to publicly reveal the true status of the killer, saying the matter is sub-judice.

Washington has once again called upon Pakistan's government to abide by its obligations under international and Pakistani law and immediately release Raymond Davis who gunned down two persons in Lahore's crowded marketplace on 26 January.

The US authorities have repeatedly claimed that the murderer enjoys diplomatic immunities under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations. Reeling under pressure, the external affairs ministry has refused to be publicly drawn into the controversy of American murderer Raymond Davis.



> fThe subject is the duty and international law responsibilities of the Pakistani Foreign Office, which is apart and separate from the Pakistani courts.
> 
> Last time the world looked the courts of Pakistan are not the Government of Pakistan and by no means are they outside of nor above International Law regarding Diplomatic Immunity.



*Pakistan's foreign office spokesperson Abdul Basit said, "I am not in a position to comment in the Lahore incident. I do not have any information to share at this stage when the matter is sub judice before the court*."



> Someone must be looking in a mirror to be shouting that someone is a "maniac.



However sources within the government are saying that Raymond Davis' *diplomatic status was dubious and Pakistan's foreign office had not issued the 'diplomatic card' to Raymond Davis*, a US consular employee in Lahore.

Some of the questions frequently asked by media persons from government officials are: How many more Americans like Raymond Davis are present in Pakistan? Does the foreign office keep a record of such people?

Why the foreign office is not clarifying its position on the status of Raymond Davis?

Has the driver who killed the third person while rushing to rescue Davis left Pakistan? Officials of the internal and external affairs ministries have so far failed to address these queries.

Meanwhile, every day a new petition is filed against US citizen in Lahore's district, sessions and High Court. A writ petition was filed in the Lahore High Court (LHC) on Friday, seeking directions that the government prosecute Davis for allegedly committing forgery.

One of the petitioners, Barrister Iqbal Jafree, submitted that Davis had obtained a visa under a false name, which made the whole process doubtful and his visa stood cancelled ab initio (from the beginning).

Yet another petition was filed in the LHC, challenging the alleged special treatment being given to Davis. A local court in Lahore has already extended Davis's physical remand to another eight days as police investigators into the double murder case have not found the murderer's claim of self-defence convincing.

*According to the investigators, Davis's act was an excessive and disproportionate use of force, which was against the definition of self-defence as per the law of the land*.

*Without having been fired at or threatened to death, the police sources said, Davis killed the two young men by excessive and disproportionate use of force*.

While requesting to extend his remand, the investigation officer Munir Ahmed told the court that they are anxious to get answers from the killer to questions like *who did he call for help after committing a crime? Why did he gun down the two men without having being fired at? Who was in the back-up vehicle that killed another young man? What was he doing there? Why was he carrying illegal weapon, global positioning system, four magazines, more than 70 bullets, pictures of sensitive installations? What was his assignment in Pakistan? What was his real identity? And so on.*


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## logic

YouTube - Lahore Raymond Davis Case

*See USG official explicitly say "We have not released the identity of our employee reports of a particular identity are incorrect"*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5kndDpeDxg&feature=related*

using false names to conceal material fact when applying for a visa in validates it in every country of the world.*

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## ashok321

Pakistan is trying hard to avenge the death of 3 murders by US man. BUT, What about 938 Pakistanis died of drone attacks in 2010 by US ?

Why GOP IS silent to the core?

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## logic

ashok321 said:


> Pakistan is trying hard to avenge the death of 3 murders by US man. BUT, What about 938 Pakistanis died of drone attacks in 2010 by US ?
> 
> Why GOP IS silent to the core?



Pakistan does not have any personal vendetta against this person. It is a simple matter of criminal act that is in the court.

As for your question regarding drones

Pakistan and US have various shady deals that are not in the public domain. These deals need to be declared so that people could at least know what the real situation is.

Raymond Davis case would not have been at a stage that it is now because it was out of the hands of the GOP. This incident happened in broad daylight with crowded streets and media and people had too many witness so because of the hue and cry of the media and people the police kept him in custody.

If it would have been at a unnamed location in mysterious circumstances i think Raymond would be cruising down the jail road Lahore instead the Jail itself.

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## ashok321

> Pakistan and US have various shady deals that are not in the public domain.



These deals far outweigh raymond davis case which is just a peanut against the complex heavy hand that US maintains vis a vis Pakistan.

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## logic

ashok321 said:


> These deals far outweigh raymond davis case which is just a peanut against the complex heavy hand that US maintains vis a vis Pakistan.



Agreed. But this peanut got stuck in public lime light. GOP have ignored various incidents because they knew they could get away with it.

It is very hard for the gang of goons and thugs to admit that they have sold the country out and hence they have put all the burden on the judiciary and try raymond.


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## ashok321

> Agreed. But this peanut got stuck in public lime light. GOP have ignored various incidents because they knew they could get away with it.



Drones are more transparent than this so called Davis.....and they have wracked more havoc than Davis Mian...


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## W.11

where are those vcheng, s90.....


where is there neutrality now, now why are they silient????


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## Awesome

Even the Wester press is now leaving Raymond Davis's side. 

Raymond Davis incident: What sort of diplomat carries a loaded gun? - *Telegraph*



> It's difficult to know which country is in more of a tizz, Pakistan or the US, following the arrest of an American "diplomat" for shooting dead two Pakistanis in Lahore last week. It is desperately embarrassing for both and could not come at a worse time  just as the US needs all the help in get from Islamabad if it wants to start bringing home its troops from Afghanistan later this year. But now the diplomatic spat caused by Raymond Davis threatens to further undermine an already awkward alliance.
> 
> As usual in Pakistan, much of the detail is murky, shrouded in layers of intrigue and conspiracy theory. But here's what we know...
> Davis was arrested last Thursday. He was driving a Honda Civic alone through Lahore when two men pulled alongside him on a motorbike at traffic lights. According to the US embassy in Islamabad, he saw that one of them had a gun. Apparently fearing that he was about to be robbed, he opened fire, killing both. When US officials arrived to rescue him from a growing mob, they ran over a bystander, resulting in a third death. (I think we can assume that the driver of the second vehicle is no longer in Pakistan.)
> 
> Davis remains in custody, while Pakistan is refusing requests to release him on the ground of diplomatic immunity.
> 
> This is desperately bad news for the leadership of both countries. This week President Asif Ali Zardari said it was a matter for the courts. However, he knows his regime is propped up by American financial aid and his military risks being overrun by the militant threat with US backing. Snubbing Washington in this way is a disaster. But Zardari is a weak man and an even weaker leader. He dare not alienate the religious right and the rabid talkshow hosts who would seize on the release of Davis as an example of how Pakistan is run by Western puppet masters.
> 
> And for America, the case risks revealing many awkward truths. Who exactly is Raymond Davis, described by the US as a member of "technical and administrative staff"? What sort of "diplomat" carries a weapon? What was he doing driving alone through Lahore? Was he actually working for a private military contractor, Hyperion? Was he meeting an informer? Such is the panic, that last week the State Department spokesman denied his name was even "Raymond Davis". Then this week, a spokeswoman for the embassy in Islamabad said Crowley had not denied the name was "Raymond Davis".
> 
> The result is a diplomatic mess that goes beyond mere embarrassment. It could even threaten this year's Afghan strategy. If it is to consolidate early gains from the military surge, the Pentagon needs Pakistan to move against militant havens on its side of the border. It needs Pakistan to provide an anvil to American troops' hammer in Afghanistan. But being seen to do the bidding of Washington is always awkward for Pakistan's political leaders, which have to operate against a backdrop of widespread hostility towards the West and the constant threat of Taliban terrorist attacks.
> 
> Releasing Davis on the grounds of diplomatic immunity risks unleashing Pakistan's darkest forces, further undermining one of the world's most important alliances. But in Pakistan the truth will remain hidden, leaving the conspiracy theorists to fill in the blanks.

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## logic

ashok321 said:


> Drones are more transparent than this so called Davis.....and they have wracked more havoc than Davis Mian...



just a little correction 

Drones are more transparent than this so called davis.... and they have wracked more havoc *and have led to Davis Mian.....*


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## ashok321

logic said:


> just a little correction
> 
> Drones are more transparent than this so called davis.... and they have wracked more havoc *and have led to Davis Mian.....*




What is the bottom of the barrel?

International power matrix at work - work with them or else.......

You know what it is...


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Is Raymod Davis worth Pakistan US strategic Ties , This is a question which is debatable for both sides , However Dr Afia Siddiqui can be swaped for a Prisoner Exchange. But First the personhas to be condemned and proven guilty in the court.
The offering of green cards to families of victims speaks out loud about the crime of the guilty and the limitation in exercising other alternatives ... !


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## VCheng

Aston-Martin said:


> where are those vcheng, s90.....
> 
> 
> where is there neutrality now, now why are they silient????



Right here, Sir. 



Asim Aquil said:


> Even the Wester press is now leaving Raymond Davis's side.



This case will get resolved once it goes out of the press limelight. To me that only seems prudent.


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## Siddiqui A

hang him. that is the most pragmatic step..


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## American Eagle

IN a time of hot war with a very high frequency of terrorist attacks in Lahore specificially, the day before the two robbers double crimes, one successful stick up against two Pakitani men whose money and cell phone they stole...stolen cell phones recovered in the failed hold up of Davis from the two robbers...as a person on the Embassy and consular staff (as a technical/expert diplomat in the security field)...being ready to react literal threats on his own life, referring to Mr. Davis, it is not irrational, especially when you consider the 15% rise in crime in Lahore from 2009 to 2010, coupled with the war and associated in Lahore terrorism just noted.

Diplomatic immunity is in order.

Action is required by the Pakistani Foreign Office to do it's duty, which may well include admitting that Mr. Davis might have been requested to be recognized as a security person in the paperwork which of late the Pakistani Foreign Office was dragging it's feet with.

Some on this site may not be aware that the Pakistan Foreign Office for the past several month has gone out of it's way to not process diplomatic paperwork for the US as a way or means of being antagonistic over things like drones and associated matters...which have come up repeatedly in writings under this topic as if Mr. Davis is the "drone master" for the US in Paksitan...which he is of course is not.

Mr. Davis clearly as all facts to date show was attacked by two robbers, now known to Pakistani police as repeat offender robbers with a trail of at least 4 robbery events, including the one attemted against Mr. Dave and the one shortly before Davis they carried out, an armed stick up of the two Paksitani men, who for the record said they were terrorized and greatly feared for their lives at the run point robbery by the same two robbers, criminals.

It is hard to do more than condole the loss of life when those killed were "crooks working as crooks" shot in self defense by Mr. Davis who rightly feared for his life in Lahore, a place of late of many robberies, stick up, and terrorist attacks and suicide bombings.

For those who say I am repetitious everyone on this Thread is repetitious...so what?


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## ares

A1Kaid said:


> "Our" diplomats aren't going around killing people.



A few year back.. RDX(after IC-814 hijack) was found from Pakistani diplomat's(to Nepal) House..but Nepali authorities could not prosecute him ..because he had diplomatic immunity..so don't be under any false impression.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Pakistani-RDX-smugglers-in-Nepal-police-custody/Article1-120932.aspx
rediff.com: Pak diplomat held with RDX in Nepal


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## JonAsad

ares said:


> A few year back.. RDX(after IC-814 hijack) was found from Pakistani diplomat's(to Nepal) House..but Nepali authorities could not prosecute him ..because he *had diplomatic immunity*..so don't be under any false impression.
> 
> Pakistani RDX smugglers in Nepal police custody - Hindustan Times
> rediff.com: Pak diplomat held with RDX in Nepal



Good, his diplomatic status was established and nepal did not prosecute him, Nepal acted according to international law 

On topic:
Mr ?? aka Davis has no diplomatic immunity.
(here you go i have repeated that 39th time in this thread.)

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## ares

Glorious Resolve said:


> Good, his diplomatic status was established and nepal did not prosecute him, Nepal acted according to international law
> 
> On topic:
> Mr ?? aka Davis has no diplomatic immunity.



Above was about making a point..that "Pakistani Diplomats aren't angels either". 

On topic : By all means.


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## JonAsad

ares said:


> Above was about making a point..that "Pakistani Diplomats aren't angels either".
> 
> On topic : By all means.



Off Topic: I am sure indian diplomats are no saints either 
Madhuri Gupta anyone?
another one
Indian diplomat in Britain claims immunity on wife-beating charge
 

On Topic: Do you have anything else to say?

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## W.11

Glorious Resolve said:


> Off Topic: I am sure indian diplomats are no saints either
> Madhuri Gupta anyone?
> another one
> Indian diplomat in Britain claims immunity on wife-beating charge
> 
> 
> On Topic: Do you have anything else to say?



he beats his wife after having sex with a white


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## American Eagle

Some on this Thread during recent days wonder what the US media coverage of Raymond Davis seeking Diplomatic Immunity as a person subjected to an attempted armed stick up is currently.

This clip is from the Friday, Feb. 4, 2011 issue of THE WASHINGTON POST. The first paragraph accompanied a photo which I could not copy to repeat it here. The second paragraph is the story, aside from the write up surrounding the picture I failed to get copied here.



> An armored car carries a U.S. consular employee, suspected in a shooting, leaves a court in Lahore, Pakistan on Thursday, Feb. 3, 2011. A judge ruled Thursday that police can keep holding a U. S. Embassy employee accused of killing two Pakistanis for at least eight more days, officials said. The U.S. says the American, identified by Pakistanis as Raymond Allen Davis, has diplomatic immunity and that Pakistan must free him. U.S. officials say he shot the two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore because they were trying to rob him.(AP Photo/Hamza Ahmed) (Hamza Ahmed - AP)
> 
> Police vehicles escort an armored car of a U.S. consular employee, suspected of a shooting, to a court in Lahore, Pakistan on Thursday, Feb. 3, 2011. A judge ruled Thursday that police can keep holding a U. S. Embassy employee accused of killing two Pakistanis for at least eight more days, officials said. *The U.S. says the American, identified by Pakistanis as Raymond Allen Davis, has diplomatic immunity and that Pakistan must free him. U.S. officials say he shot the two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore because they were trying to rob him.*(AP Photo/Hamza Ahmed) (Hamza Ahmed - AP)


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## Roybot

Glorious Resolve said:


> Off Topic: I am sure indian diplomats are no saints either
> Madhuri Gupta anyone?
> another one
> Indian diplomat in Britain claims immunity on wife-beating charge
> 
> 
> On Topic: Do you have anything else to say?





Aston-Martin said:


> he beats his wife after having sex with a white



Munir Akram incident anyone? 

Diplomats are humans too you know, they make mistakes. So no point mud slinging?


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## ThunderCat

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> How far will the US to go to jeopardize the relationship with Pakistan on the war in Afghanistan, nuclear security and cooperation over terrorism, for one man, if he is indeed not found to have diplomatic immunity.



Because he may know far too much. Studying the mysteries and questions surrounding him and his and the embassy's refusal to speak, it's evident he's some kind of agent with knowledge on controversial classified information. Maybe not about his work in Pakistan, but in Iraq and Afghanistan where he's been to. 

You have to understand the evidence from the case shows he's no ordinary American in Pakistan.


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## Patriotic_Pakistani

A foreign newspaper agency has claimed that Raymond Davis who was involved in murder of three persons in Lahore, will be released in a few days.
Two Pakistani officials in the United States told a foreign news agency on Friday they expect Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents US officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status. The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter. US officials say Raymond Davis, who works at the consulate in Lahore, acted in self-defense in shooting and killing two armed men who approached him on the street after robbing someone else. Publicly, Pakistani officials have avoided definitive statements on whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity, saying his fate is up to the court. But the officials who spoke to the news agency and said that their government had to let the case proceed until the US produced the necessary documents on Davis' status. They said Pakistani police believed the evidence supported Davis' story.

Dunya News: Pakistan:-Davis to be released very soon: Foreign news agency


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## Patriotic_Pakistani

ISLAMABAD: A visiting delegation of the powerful US House Armed Services Committee conveyed a veiled threat on Friday that Pakistan-US defence cooperation could be under cloud if the standoff persisted on the issue of immunity for Raymond Davis, an American national accused of killing two men in Lahore.

This was perhaps the strongest yet US message conveyed to Pakistani leaders.

In a meeting today with Prime Minister Gilani, a bipartisan US congressional delegation protested the continued illegal detention of the American diplomat in Lahore, a late-night press statement issued by the US embassy said.

Under diplomatic norms, protestations or differences during high-level interactions are not officially revealed to the press by foreign missions.

The statement said the delegation called on the government of Pakistan to abide by its obligation under international and Pakistani law to recognise his diplomatic immunity, and immediately release him.

The three-member delegation is led by Buck McKeon, Chairman of the House Committee.

A source present at the meeting said the delegations protest was quite strongly worded and was being seen as a warning that bilateral defence cooperation could face problems if Davis was not granted immunity and released without delay.

A statement issued by the prime ministers office said that while responding to US congressmens concern about the welfare of Davis, Mr Gilani assured them that he had been extended due facilities and security by the Punjab government.

The matter, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said, was sub judice and would be decided by court.

A US embassy spokesperson did not respond to a question regarding the nature of the protest.

The government has so far been shying away from taking a clear position on the issue of immunity because of political and diplomatic considerations in addition to the legal complexities in the case.

The US House Armed Services Committee, which is responsible for funding and oversight of defence spending and legislations relating to defence, would soon begin deliberations on the promised $2 billion military and security aid for Pakistan.

Additionally, millions of dollars in Coalition Support Fund, which is primarily reimbursement of expenditures incurred in support of US operations, are still outstanding.

Continued detention of Davis may hurt defence ties, warns US | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan should block ISAF supplies again, if the US tries to block Pakistan arms supplies. Iran is already blocking fuel supplies to Afghanistan.


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## The HBS Guy

Pakistani Foreign office's procrastination is a clear indication that Mr. Davis enjoys diplomatic immunity. 

And is is illegal for Pakistan to arrest him. 

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat Najam Sethi Ke Sath 2nd Febuary 2011 Part1

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat Najam Sethi Ke Sath 2nd Febuary 2011 Part 2

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat Najam Sethi Ke Sath 2nd Febuary 2011 Part 3

YouTube - Aapas Ki Baat Najam Sethi Ke Sath 2nd Febuary 2011 Part 4


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## W.11

yeah!!!, hoo haa hee, as we care, america, but surely u gonna miss afghanistan from now on


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## Pak_Sher

Ignore the trollers and guys leets stick to the topic.


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## ajtr

*AP sources: Pakistan likely to release US diplomat​*
(AP)  4 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP)  Pakistani officials are indicating that a U.S. diplomat charged with murder in Pakistan may soon be released.
Two Pakistani officials in the United States told The Associated Press on Friday they expect Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents U.S. officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status. The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter. U.S. officials say Raymond Davis, who works at the consulate in Lahore, acted in self-defense in shooting and killing two armed men who approached him on the street after robbing someone else.
Publicly, Pakistani officials have avoided definitive statements on whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity, saying his fate is up to the court. But the officials who spoke to AP said their government had to let the case proceed until the U.S. produced the necessary documents on Davis' status. They said Pakistani police believed the evidence supported Davis' story.
Davis was arrested soon after the Jan. 27 shootings. He made a brief appearance in court Thursday, and his next appearance is set for Feb. 11.
Besides the two men who were shot dead, a bystander was killed when he was struck by an American car rushing to the scene to help Davis.


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## JonAsad

I dont know why? but every now and then some indian post najam sethi, hey is he your holy man?

Can i post Zaid Hamid?


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

LAHORE: US diplomat to Pakistan Cameron Minter late Saturday ringed Quaid Pakistan Muslim League-N (PML-N) Mian Mohammed Nawaz Sharif and shared with him his feelings imbibed with utter grief and sorrow over Lahore incident wherein two Pakistani men were shot dead by a US consulate official and another man was trampled to death by a US consulate car, Geo News reported.

During the telephonic conversation, Cameron urged Nawaz Sharif that Pakistani government should give US consulate worker, Raymond Davis, under US custody because Davis possesses immunity under diplomatic relations being an employee of US consulate.

Upon this, Mian Nawaz, declining US envoy&#8217;s demand, replied that loss of three precious lives of Pakistani citizens had deeply hurt entire nation, adding that only court could come up with ultimate judgment on the issue.

&#8220;I can do nothing as the matter is currently being heard in court,&#8221; Nawaz concluded.


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> I dont know why? but every now and then some indian post najam sethi, hey is he your holy man?



Nope. He is just a guy who speaks sense amid the din of buf*oons out there.



Glorious Resolve said:


> Can i post Zaid Hamid?



Sure. Why not? Go ahead and do it if you feel like it. 

Zaid Hamid for president!


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Nope. He is just a guy who speaks sense amid the din of buf*oons out there.



Yeah i can understand, yours is God and rest all BS 
and his BS make sense to you.. thats the only difference.
Najam Sethi for Indian Pridhan Mantri


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## Veeru

*Raymond Davis likely to be released soon*







*WASHINGTON: Pakistani officials are indicating that Raymond Davis, a US official charged with murder in Pakistan, may soon be released,* the Associated Press reported.

Davis works at the US consulate in Lahore.

US officials said Pakistan should recognise his diplomatic immunity. They said he acted in self-defence in the shooting and killing two armed men.

Two Pakistani officials in the United States told AP they expected Davis to be released in days, once a court in Pakistan goes over documents US officials have submitted to prove Davis diplomatic status.

The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive diplomatic matter.

?Raymond Davis likely to be released soon? | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia


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## AstanoshKhan

*Continued detention of Davis may hurt defence ties, warns US
*

From the Newspaper
By Baqir Sajjad Syed
(8 hours ago) Today






_Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani talking to US Senator Buck Mukeon, Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, who called on him at PM House. - File Photo_

*ISLAMABAD: A visiting delegation of the powerful US House Armed Services Committee conveyed a veiled threat on Friday that Pakistan-US defence cooperation could be under cloud if the standoff persisted on the issue of immunity for Raymond Davis, an American national accused of killing two men in Lahore.
*
This was perhaps the strongest yet US message conveyed to Pakistani leaders.

&#8220;In a meeting today with Prime Minister Gilani, a bipartisan US congressional delegation protested the continued illegal detention of the American diplomat in Lahore,&#8221; a late-night press statement issued by the US embassy said.

Under diplomatic norms, protestations or differences during high-level interactions are not officially revealed to the press by foreign missions.

The statement said the delegation &#8220;called on the government of Pakistan to abide by its obligation under international and Pakistani law to recognise his diplomatic immunity, and immediately release him.&#8221;

The three-member delegation is led by Buck McKeon, Chairman of the House Committee.

*A source present at the meeting said the delegation&#8217;s protest was quite strongly worded and was being seen as a warning that bilateral defence cooperation could face problems if Davis was not granted immunity and released without delay.*
*
A statement issued by the prime minister&#8217;s office said that while responding to US congressmen&#8217;s concern about the welfare of Davis, Mr Gilani assured them that he had been extended due facilities and security by the Punjab government.*

*The matter, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said, was sub judice and would be decided by court.*

A US embassy spokesperson did not respond to a question regarding the nature of the protest.

The government has so far been shying away from taking a clear position on the issue of immunity because of political and diplomatic considerations in addition to the legal complexities in the case.

*The US House Armed Services Committee, which is responsible for funding and oversight of defence spending and legislations relating to defence, would soon begin deliberations on the promised $2 billion military and security aid for Pakistan.*

Additionally, millions of dollars in Coalition Support Fund, which is primarily reimbursement of expenditures incurred in support of US operations, are still outstanding.
-----------------

Look at their stance on this issue "to hell with the rights of those who were killed, just give us the damn murderer back", so weak, pathetic and inhuman. It shows how empty their slogans of human rights are.

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## JonAsad

^^ Some body should give them the middle finger..
But sadly their middle fingers are reserved for each others.


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## Mabs

Guys, please do not quote Najam Sethi to make your point. He seems to be suffering with cognitive paralysis which hinders his ability to ever do an unbiased facts-based analysis.

The US consulate itself admitted in its press release that Raymond Davis is a pseudo name, and not the real name of the man in custody. Even if we are to accept that the man in custody has diplomatic immunity, it can only be extended to him if his real identity is made known by the US consulate. As the facts are for now, he is Raymond Davis who came to Pakistan on an "*unofficial official*" business with no diplomatic immunity. And since when did diplomats start using pseudo names? On a second thought is the ambassador to Pak also using a fake name, how about Hillary Clinton or maybe even Obama?

A diplomat does not use a pseudo name, roams around in a private vehicle with a fake License plate, snapping around pictures of sensitive installations. The 2 dead guys were shot in the back according to the postmortem report. I kinda don't understand how they were trying to rob Raymond while running away from him. Also, Raymond shot from behind the car's wind shield and did not misfire a single shot. Again an extraordinary feat for a diplomat to accomplish. If he is let off the hook, I say we nominate him for a Guinness record-- *Most shots hit on the target by a Diplomat.*

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

i think one thread was enough for it to discuss, why new one?


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## ashok321

You people have been seeing these veiled threats reports - that my crystal ball already saw - some moons ago, and I told you so. For Pakistani people its immotional issue, but for GOP its strategic issue to deal with.

On one side is one soul - on the other important relations, coupled with USD-arms.

So of course GOP wont get veered or waffle - they will let go RD.

Told ya so!


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## r3alist

sorry, but this thread is pretty huge, can anyone post some links to the facts of the case?

what we know about the guy? what he was carrying? what the americans say?


or could the OP please be updated?


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## Awesome

This is from yesterday:

Timeline: The Raymond Davis Case | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia




> Here is a brief outline on the recent major events that have taken place during the mysterious case of Raymond Davis:
> 
> Jan 26: Raymond Davis, an American official, shot two Pakistani men in what he said was self-defence in a market area in Lahore. Davis called for help and the second vehicle got into a fatal accident with a pedestrian and fled the scene. Onlookers gathered around Davis and took his footage and that of his bullet-ridden vehicle. Police came to the scene and took Davis into custody for a statement.
> 
> Jan 27: Raymond Davis is held by police authorities for the shootings. Different sources claim that Davis is not a diplomat and cannot carry any type of weapons. The US embassy confirms his employment as a technical adviser. However, police authorities said that Davis was held-up at gunpoint and reacted in self-defence.
> 
> Jan 29: US officials claim that Raymond Davis has diplomatic status in Pakistan and refer to the Vienna Convention. But sources said that Davis did not have diplomatic status per se. Davis is remanded in custody with Pakistani police authorities.
> 
> Jan 30: Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani does not comment on the Davis arrest until officials confirm his identity and status in Pakistan as a foreigner. Many media personnel allege that the vague circumstances surrounding Davis could possibly mean that he might be a CIA agent.
> 
> Jan 31: ABC News in the US and the Huffington Post report that Davis was associated with a security firm in Florida, which had a vague background leading to more reports of a possible CIA connection. The government has not decided to hand in Raymond Davis to US officials. Local lawyers call for a trial.
> 
> Feb 1: President Zardari announces that Pakistan will decide the fate of Raymond Davis while the US demands Davis is returned. Lahore High Court blocks any moves made by international parties to remove Raymond Davis from Pakistan&#8217;s custody. Interior Minister Rehman Malik reiterates that Pakistan will make the decision on Davis. Prime Minister Gilani says that US pressure will not influence the decision making process in the Davis case.
> 
> Feb 2: Interior Minister Rehman Malik states that Raymond Davis holds a diplomatic passport. A court extends Davis&#8217;s remand in Pakistani custody.
> 
> Feb 3: US embassy states that Davis has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Feb 4: Pakistani government sources claim that Raymond Davis&#8217;s diplomatic immunity appears to be &#8220;dubious.&#8221;

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## r3alist

thanks asim, its a good idea to keep the OP updated.


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## Awesome

Just dunnit...

Essentially the below quoted article reads like "Please don't be angry with Dobby, Master"

Pakistan News Service - PakTribune



> ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Friday told a visiting US congressional delegation that Raymond Davis, a US citizen involved in killing of two Pakistanis, had been provided all facilities and security by the provincial government.
> 
> &#8220;The matter is sub judice and would be decided by the court,&#8221; the prime minister told the US congressional delegation led by Senator Buck Mukeon, Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, that called on him at the Prime Minister&#8217;s House.
> 
> The prime minister said Pakistan was fully committed to a long term, broad based and stable strategic relationship with the US. &#8220;These relations are vitally important not bilaterally but also for the regional stability and overall peace in the world. Hence, it is imperative for both the sides to make every possible endeavour for further strengthening of the existing cordial ties,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Prime Minister Gilani said Pakistan continues to confront courageously the menace of terrorism and had made unmatched sacrifices in human as well as economic terms. Expressing his government&#8217;s gratitude for the US assistance, the prime minister called for development of a mechanism through which the required provision of equipment and assistance for building the capacity of Pakistan&#8217;s armed forces could flow unhindered.
> 
> He said the whole Pakistani nation was united in rooting out terrorism and the war against terror cannot be won without the support of the masses but the gains in it must be consolidated through socio-economic and infrastructure development projects and investment in the affected areas.
> 
> The prime minister called for a common strategy by Pakistan, Afghanistan and the US for realisation of durable peace, stability development and progress in Afghanistan. He apprised the US Congressmen of the recent interaction between Pakistan and Afghanistan, including his own visit to Kabul in December, which was followed by Chairman of High Peace Council Prof Burhanuddin Rabbani and Afghan foreign minister&#8217;s visits to Pakistan.
> 
> The US Congressional delegation commended Pakistan&#8217;s pivotal role in the war against terror and expressed gratitude of the US government and Congress for the sacrifices made by Pakistan&#8217;s armed forces and security personnel.
> 
> They also recognised the economic difficulties of Pakistan aggravated by the unprecedented devastating floods of last year. They agreed with the prime minister that both sides through their concerted efforts should build up the relations, which are significant for international peace.
> 
> Minister for Foreign Affairs Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Minister for Interior Rehman Malik, Minister for Finance Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh, Senator Syeda Sughra Imam, Secretary Defence and other senior officers were present in the meeting.

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## r3alist

our politicians always seem to be ready to support the american line when required.

i guess thats why the americans always complain about the army, they maintain at least a modicum of sovereignty.


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## pakdefender

The United States of America is making a joke out of itself by continuing to make threats and arguing at the highest level that this murderer is a diplomat and demanding his release. 

So now it looks like that all it takes to join the corp. of diplomats from the United States is to be a white gun totting remorseless murder

The increase in bombings and terrorist activity in Pakistan in recent days is DIRECTLY related to the detention on this American murderer.

He is guilty of murder, of carrying firearms illegally, of driving with fake number plate, of rash driving resulting in injury and death, his status in the country is dubious.
He must NOT be released and justice must take its course.

armed americans infiltration of our country through these made up legal covers of diplomatic immunity is simply not acceptable.


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## pakdefender

Pakistan is not going to release American murderer Davis so the Americans and go ahead and arrest Hussain Haqqani , Pakistan&#8217;s Ambassador to the United States.

That works out doesn&#8217;t it?


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## American Eagle

Here is a Pakistani large local daily newspaper update on the status of US diplomat Raymond Davis.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/05/‘raymond-davis-likely-to-be-released-soon’.html



> *DAWN Saturday, February 5, 2011 *
> (4 hours ago) Today
> 
> Raymond Davis, an American national who killed two Pakistanis in Lahore. &#8212; Photo by Reuters
> 
> WASHINGTON: Pakistani officials are indicating that Raymond Davis, a US official charged with murder in Pakistan, may soon be released.
> 
> Two Pakistani officials in the United States told The Associated Press on Friday they expected Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents US officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status.
> 
> The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter.
> 
> US officials said Raymond Davis, who works at the consulate in Lahore, acted in self-defence in shooting and killing two armed men who approached him on the street after robbing someone else.
> 
> Publicly, Pakistani officials have avoided definitive statements on whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity, saying his fate is up to the court.
> 
> But the officials who spoke to AP said their government had to let the case proceed until the US produced the necessary documents on Davis&#8217; status.
> 
> They said Pakistani police believed the evidence supported Davis&#8217; story.
> 
> Davis was arrested soon after the January 27 shootings. He made a brief appearance in court Thursday, and his next appearance is set for February 11.
> 
> Besides the two men who were shot dead, a bystander was killed when he was struck by an American car rushing to the scene to help Davis.



Here is the Raymond Davis American diplomat news coverage in the ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION a large US daily on Friday, Feb. 4, 2011:

www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ap-sources-pakistan-likely-828336.html



> Atlanta Weather
> Light rain
> 39° F
> 
> National / World News 8:25 p.m. Friday, February 4, 2011
> 
> AP sources: Pakistan likely to release US diplomat
> By KIMBERLY DOZIER
> 
> The Associated Press
> 
> WASHINGTON &#8212; *Pakistani officials are indicating that a U.S. diplomat charged with murder in Pakistan may soon be released.*
> 
> Two Pakistani officials in the United States told The Associated Press on Friday they expect Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents U.S. officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status. The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter.
> 
> U.S. officials say Raymond Davis, who works at the consulate in Lahore, acted in self-defense in shooting and killing two armed men who approached him on the street after robbing someone else.
> 
> Publicly, Pakistani officials have avoided definitive statements on whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity, saying his fate is up to the court. But the officials who spoke to AP said their government had to let the case proceed until the U.S. produced the necessary documents on Davis' status.
> 
> They said Pakistani police believed the evidence supported Davis' story.
> 
> Davis was arrested soon after the Jan. 27 shootings. He made a brief appearance in court Thursday, and his next appearance is set for Feb. 11.
> 
> Besides the two men who were shot dead, a bystander was killed when he was struck by an American car rushing to the scene to help Davis.
> 
> ___
> 
> February 04, 2011 08:25 PM EST


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Here is a Pakistani large local daily newspaper update on the status of US diplomat Raymond Davis.


Your word is credible enough, but its forum practice to always put up the link of the posted article.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Here is a Pakistani large local daily newspaper update on the status of US diplomat Raymond Davis.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the Raymond Davis American diplomat news coverage in the ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION a large US daily on Friday, Feb. 4, 2011:
> 
> 
> Atlanta Weather
> Light rain
> 39° F
> 
> National / World News 8:25 p.m. Friday, February 4, 2011
> 
> AP sources: Pakistan likely to release US diplomat
> By KIMBERLY DOZIER
> 
> The Associated Press
> 
> WASHINGTON &#8212; *Pakistani officials are indicating that a U.S. diplomat charged with murder in Pakistan may soon be released.*
> 
> Two Pakistani officials in the United States told The Associated Press on Friday they expect Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents U.S. officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status. The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter.
> 
> COLOR="Blue"]U.S. officials say Raymond Davis, who works at the consulate in Lahore, acted in self-defense in shooting and killing two armed men who approached him on the street after robbing someone else.[/COLOR]
> 
> Publicly, Pakistani officials have avoided definitive statements on whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity, saying his fate is up to the court. But the officials who spoke to AP said their government had to let the case proceed until the U.S. produced the necessary documents on Davis' status.
> 
> They said Pakistani police believed the evidence supported Davis' story.
> 
> Davis was arrested soon after the Jan. 27 shootings. He made a brief appearance in court Thursday, and his next appearance is set for Feb. 11.
> 
> Besides the two men who were shot dead, a bystander was killed when he was struck by an American car rushing to the scene to help Davis.
> 
> ___
> 
> February 04, 2011 08:25 PM EST


The federal government already has low credibility in the matter, it is supportive of Americans, but you've picked up temporary and weak allies in Pakistan

They have the worst choices, they can hand him over to you and face the ire of the nation or not hand him over and face the ire of America. So far it looks like they are going to edge towards America... So interesting times up ahead.

They should do what they have already stated, calling the case sub-judice. Let the courts acquit him of the murder charges and that will be acceptable to the people and will be the best way out.

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## T-Faz

I have by and large tried to stay away from this topic owing to the fact that my opinion would be based on hearsay and not facts.

But after having gone through a lot of articles on this particular case, it is fair to say that even if there was a robbery attempt, excess force was used by Mr Davis. Though it would be justified by some because the prevalent condition in Pakistan, the accused in this case should have been aware of what the local conditions are like and he should have followed security protocol as a foreign worker.

Similarly, this case and the eventual news on Green Cards being offered just gives more fuel to the religious elements who can play with public sentiment. In this crucial time, such an incident was not required at all but you cannot avoid what has happened.

This is why a clear and just process of law must be allowed to take place, if Davis took action justifiably, then he should be acquitted, if he overreacted, then he should be punished. 

But this case must be properly investigated and the courts should decide the eventual course of action.

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## American Eagle

Your Moderator's personal comments are calmly expressed.

I personally and in terms of International Law disagree, however.

Diplomatic Immunity as laid out by the US Ambassador to Pakistan, as backed up by the US Department of State, are what I choose to support and give credibility to.

Per DAWN and the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION JOURNAL, along with all other media in the USA, diplomatic immunity is the likely outcome.

To me Mr. Davis was subjected to a failed stick up or robbery, with pistols aimed at him by the robbers. He feared for his life and fired in self defense.



> I can offer from our Holy Bible Old Testament a few verses from the Book of Psalms as a prayer for Mr. Davis, for the bereaved family of the two deceased robbers, and for all who feel anger and upset from all points of view...understanding that righteousness does not derive from an angry moment on the part of any of us, pro or con:
> 
> Psalms, Chapter 7, verses 8 through 17:
> 
> - "The Lord shall judge the peoples; judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
> 
> - Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, but establish the just; for the righteous God testeth the minds and hearts.
> 
> - My defense is with God, who saveth the upright in heart. God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
> 
> - If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against his persecutors.
> 
> - Behond, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
> 
> - He made a pit and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
> 
> - His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
> 
> - I will praise the Lord according to his righteousness, and will sing praise to the name of the Lord most high."



God will judge the wickedness and the guilt in this scenario, not me, not you, not any of us as mere mortals. Peace and hope are in our in common God in Heaven, where issues of petty trust, distrust, rumor mongering, and lies do not exist.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

O Lord, My name is Khadim-e-Ala(CM Punjab) Thats why you spend your nights in the consulate.






Oh my lord chk out my silence on the issue of Black Water






It says the American prisoner has a fone in his Jail , he eats cakes and pastries and also takes Black Coffe courtsey Jail Sevice provided by the CM punjab

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## VCheng

CNN is running a ticker on its broadcast saying _"Pakistani police are saying the two men killed were likely robbers." _Are there any other media reports to corroborate this?


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## TOPGUN

Hang the bastard , jail the bastard punish this bastard somehow some way don't let him get away with this he needs to be punished forsure.

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yeah i can understand, yours is God and rest all BS
> and his BS make sense to you.. thats the only difference.
> Najam Sethi for Indian Pridhan Mantri



It's Pradhan Mantri and no he can't become that. It's not possible constitutionally.


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## American Eagle

VCheng said:


> CNN is running a ticker on its broadcast saying _"Pakistani police are saying the two men killed were likely robbers." _Are there any other media reports to corroborate this?



Yes.

See the posting I did recently, today, Saturday, Feb. 5 here in PDF, of news story from the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION JOURNAL. You can find similar news stories in every major daily in the US today, as well as on radio and TV news outlets in the US.

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## RescueRanger

We have proved our point. Time to send him on his merry way and stop this foolishness.


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## VCheng

RescueRanger said:


> We have proved our point. *Time to send him on his merry way and stop this foolishness*.



And what point precisely would that be? 

I do agree with the bolded part though.


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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> And what point precisely would that be?
> 
> I do agree with the bolded part though.



That we are gutless..

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> I personally and in terms of International Law disagree, however.
> 
> Diplomatic Immunity as laid out by the US Ambassador to Pakistan, as backed up by the US Department of State, are what I choose to support and give credibility to.
> 
> Per DAWN and the ATLANTA CONSTITUTION JOURNAL, along with all other media in the USA, diplomatic immunity is the likely outcome.
> To me Mr. Davis was subjected to a failed stick up or robbery, with pistols aimed at him by the robbers. He feared for his life and fired in self defense.



Every human being is allowed to have his opinion but the courts shall decide the facts.


> God will judge the wickedness and the guilt in this scenario, not me, not you, not any of us as mere mortals. Peace and hope are in our in common God in Heaven, where issues of petty trust, distrust, rumor mongering, and lies do not exist.



Are u Talking about Iraq?


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## RazPaK

The great Hamid Gul's take on the Lahore incident.


YouTube - General Hameed Gul on the Lahore incident 27-01-2011 (Part 1).ASF





If you watch the entire show, Gul saab thinks Davis is a special forces operative involved in target killings.


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## Awesome

I think releasing him now without a trial would pretty much mean America would have to evacuate all its consular staff. The family has already threatened to besiege the Embassy in such a case. This will Egyptify, the sympathies are with the Shamshad family whose Faheem, I believe out of the two wasn't a criminal. 

I think there is no way to release Davis now. The choice is simple, release Davis and lose the government or take it to trial and then either release or punish him.

Wife of man killed by Davis commits suicide | DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia



> FAISALABAD: The wife of one of two youths gunned down by a US government employee Raymond Davis in Lahore on Jan 27 committed suicide on Sunday.
> 
> Shumaila Kanwal, wife of Faheem Ahmed, took insecticides in the morning and was brought to Allied Hospital where she died a little before midnight. Hospital official Prof Zahid Yasmeen Hashmi confirmed her death.
> 
> When she was brought to the hospital, Ms Kanwal told newsmen that she had decided to end her life in protest against &#8220;favourable treatment being accorded to the killer of her husband by police and reports that he will be set free&#8221;.
> 
> *Ms Kanwal had married Faheem Ahmed about six months ago*.
> 
> Her cousin said the 26-year old widow had taken insecticides to kill herself after learning Davis would be handed over to the US government without trial. She had returned to her parents&#8217; home from Gadri village near Chak Jhumra a couple of days ago.
> 
> She had told newsmen gathered at the hospital: *&#8220;The killer is being treated as a guest at the police station. I need justice and blood for the blood of my husband*.&#8221;
> 
> She said that even after 11 days after the murder of her husband, there had been no progress in the case.
> 
> Activists of Jamat-i-Islami gathered outside the hospital and held a demonstration.
> 
> JI district chief Azeem Randhawa said Ms Kanwal was an orphan and her mother was disabled.
> 
> *Agencies add: Faheem&#8217;s brother Mohammad Waseem told AFP that Ms Kanwal was plunged into a &#8220;severe depression&#8221; by her husband&#8217;s death.*
> 
> She took the poison before dawn and was rushed to the hospital early on Sunday, he said.
> 
> *&#8220;I want blood for blood. The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion*,&#8221; she had told reporters at the hospital.
> 
> *&#8220;I do not expect any justice from this government,*&#8221; said Ms Kanwal in a statement recorded by doctor Ali Naqi. &#8220;*That is why I want to kill myself*.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;*Mohammad Faheem&#8217;s wife Shumaila this morning took poisonous pills and she was taken to Allied Hospital*&#8221; in Faisalabad, local police chief Usman Anwar told AFP.
> 
> Earlier, Dr Naqi confirmed the suicide attempt, describing her condition as critical.
> 
> The shootings have stoked anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, feelings that could be further inflamed by Ms Kanwal&#8217;s death.


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## Pak_Sher

I feel sad with another loss for the wife of the victim. The situation is more complicated with another death indirectly related to this incident.


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## Developereo

I still don't understand why there are conflicting statements about whether these two robbed someone earlier. How hard is that to establish one way or the other?

Note that it still does not excuse Davis' behavior unless he can prove that they threatened him with a gun first. Just because someone is a robber doesn't mean you can shoot him in the back in cold blood.

There is also the allegation that Davis brandished a weapon at police.


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## Awesome

Sohni Dharti said:


> I still don't understand why there are conflicting statements about whether these two robbed someone earlier. How hard is that to establish one way or the other?
> 
> Note that it still does not excuse Davis' behavior unless he can prove that they threatened him with a gun first. Just because someone is a robber doesn't mean you can shoot him in the back in cold blood.
> 
> There is also the allegation that Davis brandished a weapon at police.



I don't think they robbed anyone, the so called Dr Mudassar is nowhere to be found and have not once appeared in front of TV

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## JonAsad

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think they robbed anyone, the so called Dr Mudassar is nowhere to be found and have not once appeared in front of TV


 
Probably Dr Mudassar was offered the green card, filed the case, took it and left.

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## Mabs

Diplomatic Immunity and the Raymond Davis Case


The shooting to death of two Pakistani youths, namely Faizan Haider and Muhammad Faheem, by a U.S. Consulate official, Raymond Allen Davis, and the death of a third Pakistani, namely Obaid-ur-Rahman, by a vehicle operated by the U.S. Consulate, in Lahore on 27 January 2011 has, once again, raised concerns relating to the conduct of American officials working for the U.S. Embassy and Consulates in Pakistan.

Raymond Davis was arrested by the Punjab Police on the same day and, on 28 January 2011, was presented before a magistrate in Lahore, who remanded him into police custody for six days. On 29 January 2011, three days after the incident, the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, without even naming Raymond Davis, called for his release whilst claiming that he was a diplomat and was being detained illegally in violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 1961 (the &#8220;Vienna Diplomatic Convention&#8221. On 1 February 2011, the Lahore High Court, in response to a public interest petition, restrained Pakistani authorities from handing Raymond Davis over to the U.S. authorities and has ordered his name to be placed on the Exit Control List to prevent him from leaving Pakistan.

It may be pertinent to note that the U.S. Embassy&#8217;s press release of 29 January 2011 makes the following, rather surprising, claim:

&#8220;On January 27, the diplomat acted in self-defense when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles. The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm. Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area.&#8221;

One wonders the basis on which the U.S. Embassy is claiming that two of the deceased had criminal backgrounds or had committed any crime. The deceased have not been found guilty of the offence alleged by the U.S. Embassy, either by the investigating police authorities or by any court of law. In making such an unwarranted claim, which is against diplomatic norms and also amounts to unlawful interference in a legal process of a host state in violation of Article 41(1) of the Vienna Diplomatic Convention, the U.S. Embassy has clearly overstepped its bounds.

The press release goes on to say:

&#8220;When detained, the U.S. diplomat identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status with either the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore or the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad. Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna [Diplomatic] Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory.&#8221;

*It seems that the U.S. Embassy is unaware that when a foreigner is arrested and claims diplomatic immunity, it is not the legal responsibility of the arresting authority, in this case the Punjab Police, to ascertain his diplomatic status; it is the responsibility of the arrested person and his embassy or consulate to establish his diplomatic credentials and the same cannot achieved by orally boasting of diplomatic immunity without any documentary proof. The Vienna Diplomatic Convention does not require states to assume that every foreigner is a diplomat. It is the responsibility of all diplomats to carry on their persons, at all times, their diplomatic identity cards, which are issued by the Foreign Ministry of the host state and to produce the same on demand when required by any government authority, including law enforcement agencies such as the police. The U.S. Embassy has overlooked the fact that Mr. Raymond Davis was arrested from a non-diplomatic vehicle (with non-diplomatic registration plates) and he failed to produce any diplomatic identity card to establish his diplomatic credentials*.

*Also, the mere holding of a diplomatic passport does not confer diplomatic status on someone. Diplomatic status must be expressly recognized by the host state. For example, a foreign diplomat in India will not be a diplomat in Pakistan. He may visit Pakistan using a diplomatic passport, however, he will have no diplomatic immunity in Pakistan by virtue of his diplomatic passport because he is not a member of any diplomatic mission in Pakistan and has not been recognized as such by Pakistan. Recognition of diplomatic status is expressed through the issuance of a diplomatic identity card to a person by the host state, which, in the case of Raymond Davis, seems to be absent*.

Earlier, the U.S. Embassy issued the following press release on 28 January 2011, a day after the arrest and detention of Raymond Davis:

&#8220;A staff member of the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore was involved in an incident yesterday that regrettably resulted in the loss of life. The U.S. Embassy is working with Pakistani authorities to determine the facts and work toward a resolution.&#8221;

*Clearly, there is an inconsistency in the U.S. Embassy&#8217;s presses releases of 28 January and 29 January. The U.S. Embassy did not raise the issue of diplomatic immunity a day after the arrest and, in fact, referred to Raymond Davis as being a &#8220;staff member of the U.S. Consulate, General in Lahore&#8221;. In other words: a consular officer. The U.S. Embassy&#8217;s press release of 28 January only reinforced the belief of the Punjab Police and the Punjab Government, and justifiably so, that Mr. Raymond Davis was not a diplomat but a &#8220;consular officer&#8221; and, as such, not immune from detention and prosecution.*

Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, 1963 (the &#8220;Vienna Consular Convention&#8221, consular officers do not enjoy unfettered diplomatic immunity. Article 41 of the Vienna Consular Convention states:

&#8220;Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.&#8221;

It is evident that shooting to death of two human beings constitutes &#8220;a grave crime&#8221; pursuant to the Vienna Consular Convention and Raymond David&#8217;s detention is pursuant to a judicial process, having been authorized by a competent judicial authority as per the Vienna Consular Convention.

*What needs to be appreciated by the U.S. Embassy is that if a Pakistani national, shoots dead two Americans on the streets of New York using an unlicensed weapon whilst driving a non-diplomatic vehicle and is, subsequently, arrested by the New York police and claims diplomatic immunity without producing any diplomatic ID, will the New York police be bound to release him or keep him detention till such time that he or the Pakistani Consulate in New York establishes his diplomatic credentials? Clearly, the New York police will have the right to detain him till such time*.

Therefore, in light of the aforesaid, the arrest of Raymond Davis by the Punjab Police was legal and not in violation of the Vienna Consular Convention or, for that matter, the Vienna Diplomatic Convention (both ratified by Pakistan in its Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act, 1972). Furthermore, the continued detention of Raymond Davis is not a violation of the Vienna Diplomatic Convention till such time that it is proved that he is a diplomat.

*The U.S. Embassy, until now, has failed to establish the diplomatic status of Raymond Davis. Indeed, the evidence so far is to the contrary. A local news channel has shown a letter written by the U.S. Embassy dated 20 January 2010 wherein it is informing Pakistan&#8217;s Foreign Ministry that Raymond Davis is a member of the Embassy&#8217;s &#8220;administrative and technical staff&#8221; and requesting for him the issuance of a &#8220;non-diplomatic ID&#8221; card. This letter clearly shows that the U.S. Embassy itself did not recognize Raymond Davis as a diplomat. It, therefore, seems that the U.S. Embassy&#8217;s 29 January 2011 press statement claiming that Raymond Davis is a diplomat is an afterthought intended to shield him from criminal prosecution*.

No one should dispute the fact that diplomats are immune from criminal prosecution under the Vienna Diplomatic Convention (Article 31(1)). Even if we were to hypothetically assume, without admitting, that Raymond Davis is a diplomat, there are still options that can be exercised. The Vienna Diplomatic Convention clearly reveals its spirit when it states, in its preamble, that &#8220;*the purpose of such privileges and immunities is not to benefit individuals but to ensure the efficient performance of the functions of diplomatic missions as representing States.*&#8221; The Vienna Diplomatic Convention allows foreign states to (i) punish their own diplomats for committing crimes in host countries (Article 31(4)) or (ii) waive the diplomatic immunity of its diplomats so that they can be prosecuted by the host state (Article 32). Therefore, the host state may itself request the foreign state to waive the immunity of a diplomat so that it can prosecute such diplomat.

The Vienna Diplomatic Convention also contains a mechanism under which a diplomat can be stripped of his diplomatic status and immunity by the host state. The host state has the authority under Article 9 of the Vienna Diplomatic Convention to declare a diplomat as a persona non grata and, thereafter, under Article 43(b), to issue a notice to the foreign state&#8217;s embassy informing it that it refuses to recognize such person as a member of the foreign country&#8217;s diplomatic mission. Upon receipt of the notice under Article 43(b) by the foreign state&#8217;s embassy, the diplomat in question forthwith ceases to remain a diplomat and is automatically stripped of his diplomatic immunity. Therefore, even if it is established that Raymond Davis is a diplomat, the Government of Pakistan can strip him of his diplomatic status and immunity by, firstly, declaring him a persona non grata under Article 9 of the Vienna Diplomatic Convention and, thereafter, by issuing a notice under Article 43(b) of the Vienna Diplomatic Convention to the U.S. Embassy, Islamabad informing it therein that Pakistan refuses to recognize Raymond Davis as a member of the U.S. diplomatic mission.

Even if Pakistan does not take the above action, the U.S. can take the moral high ground and itself waive diplomatic immunity for Raymond Davis. There are precedents in this regard and one need not look beyond the manner in which the United States itself views diplomatic immunity. Though, in the case of Raymond Davis, who is a junior functionary, the U.S. Embassy is claiming diplomatic immunity for a person who shot dead two Pakistani youth using an unlicensed weapon, the U.S. itself demanded the lifting of immunity of a senior diplomat who accidently killed a U.S. citizen in a car accident on its soil.

*In 1997, Gueorgui Makharadze, the Georgian Deputy Ambassador to the United States, accidently killed an American teenager in a road accident in Washington, D.C. The U.S. exerted extreme pressure on the Georgian government to lift his diplomatic immunity even though it was not a deliberate shoot-to-death killing, as in the case of Raymond Davis, but a car accident. The Georgian government finally relented &#8220;in the interests of U.S.-Georgian relations and on moral and ethical grounds.&#8221; Makharadze was tried in a U.S. court, found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 21 years in prison. While lifting Makharadze&#8217;s diplomatic immunity, then Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze observed, &#8220;I cannot imagine diplomacy and politics devoid of moral principle.&#8221;

Even if Raymond Davis is a diplomat, wouldn&#8217;t it be prudent for the U.S. to follow little Georgia&#8217;s example and lift his diplomatic immunity in the interests of U.S.-Pakistan relations and on moral and ethical grounds. Or, perhaps, unlike Georgia, the United States of America sees diplomacy as being devoid of moral principles*.

http://teeth.com.pk/blog/2011/02/07/diplomatic-immunity-and-the-raymond-davis-case#more-33908

The writer, Rai Muhammad Saleh Azam is a High Court Advocate based in Lahore and a partner in the law firm Azam & Rai

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## JonAsad

*ajtr posted that on another thread, very interesting.*




ajtr said:


> *Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official​*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: *The government&#8217;s reluctance to free Raymond Davis is attributed to the fact that the two killed in the Lahore shooting were believed to be the intelligence operatives.*
> *&#8220;Yes, they belonged to the security establishment&#8230;.they found the activities of the American official detrimental to our national security,&#8221;* disclosed a security official.
> He requested not to be identified since he was not authorised to speak to the media on record.
> *The official confirmed that the president, the prime minister and the chief of army staff (COAS) had discussed the issue in a meeting last week. The three thought it was advisable to resist the US pressure on the Raymond Davis issue and believed the detained American national should not be released at this stage, he said*.
> *He said the government&#8217;s tough stance on the controversy was also its reaction to the attempts by certain elements in Washington to implicate the country&#8217;s top spy agency, the ISI, in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks.
> &#8220;The government is very angry with the decision of an American court to summon top ISI officials in connections with the Mumbai attacks,&#8221;* the official maintained.
> The military spokesman was not available for comments.
> The officials in the Foreign Office also confirmed the government&#8217;s position on the Raymond Davis issue but said he would eventually be released once the firm assurance from the US that such incidents would not recur.
> The government was also contemplating to ask the American government to waive off Raymond&#8217;s immunity and try him in the US courts, the officials added. A US Embassy official said his government had &#8220;no plans yet to agree on such a step&#8221;.
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 7th, 2011.

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## Awesome

This case just keeps on unraveling... To let go a national security threat, would now be treacherous without determining his guilt or innocence.



Glorious Resolve said:


> *ajtr posted that on another thread, very interesting.*


 
Lahore shooting: 3 more Americans barred from leaving Pakistan - Hindustan Times

Three more Americans, besides US official Raymond Davis who fatally shot two Pakistanis in Lahore, have been prohibited from going abroad, said an official. The government barred the three more US nationals from going out of the country on allegations that they were in the vehicle that crushed a man to death in Lahore after Davis was involved in the shooting, the Express Tribune reported on Monday.

Davis was arrested after he shot dead two people riding on a motorbike at a busy intersection in Lahore on January 27. He called up the US consulate after the shooting and a team rushed to help him. The team's vehicle collided with a motorcyclist, killing him.

The Punjab government has asked the federal government's assistance in securing the custody of the three Americans who are accused of running over the motorcyclist.

"The interior ministry has placed the name of the three Americans, including the driver of the US consulate in Lahore, on the exit control list," an interior ministry official was quoted as saying. The list contains names of people who are prohibited from leaving Pakistan.

The official said that the federal interior ministry, through the Foreign Office, has written to the US consulate demanding that the three Americans to be handed over to the Punjab police.

Senator Pervez Rashid, special assistant to tne Punjab chief minister, said: "We have sought access to get custody of these accused because they are wanted by the Punjab police in connection to the Raymond Davis case."

A US embassy official said: "We have not received any such information on the issue as yet."


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## JonAsad

One thing is bothering me, if it is understood that eventually davis will be freed, then why the GoP is making the case more complicated than it already is 

Some thing is fishy.. or maybe Zardari and Co are very much afraid of the public backlash at this time-- courtesy Egypt 

The suicide has delayed the release of Davis for atleast 2 weeks.


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## fawwaxs

Widow of Pakistani killed by US man commits suicide

The widow of a Pakistani man who was killed by a US citizen has committed suicide after taking poison.

In her dying statement, Shumaila said she feared the American would be released without trial, police and doctors said.

Her husband, Mohammad Faheem, and another man were shot dead by Raymond Davis in Lahore last month.

The US embassy has called for Mr Davis to be freed, saying he has diplomatic status and is immune from prosecution.

Mr Davis has admitted that he shot the men but says he acted in self-defence because they were trying to rob him.

A court in Lahore has barred officials from freeing Mr Davis and ordered them to place his name on the "exit control list" to stop him leaving Pakistan.

He has been sent into custody while police investigate the case.
'Blood for blood'

"Faheem's wife Shumaila has died," news agency AFP quoted doctor Yasin Hashmi, head of Faisalabad city's Allied Hospital, as saying.

"Doctors tried hard to save her life but could not succeed and she died a short while ago," he said.

"I do not expect any justice from this government," the Associated Press quoted her as saying in a statement recorded by the doctor before she died.

"That is why I want to kill myself."

AP reported that Shumaila also spoke to reporters after arriving at the hospital, saying: "I want blood for blood."

"The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion," she said.

Mr Davis is charged on two counts - murder and possession of illegal weapons. He is due back in court on 11 February.

Pakistan's government has asked the court for time to determine whether Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity or not.

The authorities previously said he was not among foreign security personnel authorised to carry firearms in the country.

The US embassy in Islamabad has argued that he is a consulate employee who acted in "self-defence when confronted by two armed men on motorcycles" on 27 January.

Mr Davis is said to have told police that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger tried to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint.

As Mr Davis' colleagues came to his aid, their vehicle ran over and killed a third person.


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## Awesome

The rhetoric in the world media is clearly demanding action

Pakistan rally condemns US diplomat



> Hundreds of Pakistanis have held a demonstration against the man they believe was responsible for the deaths of Pakistanis in a shooting incident last month.
> 
> Pakistani lawyers, rights groups and political activists rallied in front of the US consulate in Lahore.
> 
> Hundreds of protesters from varied political organisations took part in the protest, insisting the Pakistan government resist any effort to have Davis repatriated to the US.
> 
> They said the government should bring Davis to justice according to Pakistan's law.
> 
> *The angry protesters threatened to overthrow the Pakistani government unless it hangs Davis*.



Wife kills self after man slain by U.S.. official - The Denver Post



> LAHORE, Pakistan  The wife of a Pakistani man shot and killed by a U.S. official committed suicide by eating rat poison Sunday, explaining before she died that she was driven to act by fears that the American would be freed without trial, a doctor said.
> 
> The U.S. has demanded that authorities release the American, Raymond Davis, saying the two armed men he shot attempted to rob him. He was arrested on Jan. 27, and the U.S. has said he has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Davis and his wife are renting a home in Highlands Ranch.
> 
> The shootings have stoked anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, feelings that could be further inflamed by Shumaila Kanwal's suicide.



Imran plans Egypt-style movement in Pakistan - Arab News



> SLAMABAD: Inspired by the turmoil in Egypt, some Pakistani leaders are planning protests against the government. Tehrik-e-Insaf chief Imran Khan on Sunday announced his plan to launch an Egyptian-style movement against what he termed corrupt regime of President Asif Ali Zardari.
> 
> Speaking at a press conference at the residence of Ibadur Rehman, one of the young men killed by US diplomat Raymond Davis, Imran said, The socio-economic and political conditions prevailing in Pakistan are no different from those in Egypt. He said the Egyptian people were struggling to replace a corrupt government by an accountable representative government.


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## Patriot

We need another Long March headed by Imran Khan.This time it should be not be derailed by people like Nawaz Sharif.

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## Bang Galore

Much to the dismay of many here, the final conclusion to this case is pretty much a no-brainer. The Pakistani establishment cannot simply afford to question an immunity claim by the Americans. The case against the ISI chief in the U.S. can & will be used as leverage if needed. There is simply no way that Pakistan can claim immunity for its officials in that case while refusing to grant the same to an American official. The longer this drags on, the worse it is going to be when the decision to free this guy is finally made.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

I m getting some information coming in about this case. It seems like Raymond Davis is going to be released tomorrow. 

Has anyone else received the same info...

This is the height of treason against Pakistan...


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## ashok321

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I m getting some information coming in about this case. It seems like Raymond Davis is going to be released tomorrow.
> 
> Has anyone else received the same info...
> 
> This is the height of treason against Pakistan...


 

You may want RDï¿½s head, but GOP has more plans!

They run the government, hence there is more at stake (strategic ties-Arms-USD etcetra) from thier point of view, which general public fails to realise. Its not good for Pakistanis to be jazbati on this issue.


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## kugga

Not very good things gonna happen after his release... Believe me the government is trying invoke a mass protest....


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## W.11

not good, but it was expected...... PPP is just a puppet govrnment saadly..


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## VCheng

There is much more to this case than meets the eye, but I think that we ALL need to keep calm and let the powers working behind the scenes from BOTH sides do their jobs.

All will be settled soon enough.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

ashok321 said:


> You may want RDï¿½s head, but GOP has more plans!
> 
> They run the government, hence there is more at stake (strategic ties-Arms-USD etcetra) from thier point of view, which general public fails to realise. Its not good for Pakistanis to be jazbati on this issue.


 
This has nothing to do with being jazbati... If the government goes ahead with doing this, they are creating more problems than sorting them... simple as that...

Rambo should be hanged in public... Americans cannot do anything about it... The case is clear and yes... the scum of India will be on to us after a while saying we did not even do anything for a clear murderer of Pakistani people just because he was American...

strategic interests my foot...

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## The HBS Guy

Pakistani govt. is buying time to make sure that the public anger withers a bit before Mr. Davis is released.


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## DV RULES

ashok321 said:


> You may want RDï¿½s head, but GOP has more plans!
> 
> They run the government, hence there is more at stake (strategic ties-Arms-USD etcetra) from thier point of view, which general public fails to realise. Its not good for Pakistanis to be jazbati on this issue.


 

We demand only justice in the case & he has to punish over his crime. He is murderer of two intelligence worker. Where about GOP, GOP's most heads are sold, they are not thinking or worry about people but their bank balances in USA, black money accounts in Swiss and USA AND UK Banks, running business in foreign countries because of they are showing hesitation on this case.


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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> There is much more to this case than meets the eye, but I think that we ALL need to keep calm and let the powers working behind the scenes from BOTH sides do their jobs.
> 
> All will be settled soon enough.


 
That's exactly what people are protesting: back room deals with no accountability.


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## Lankan Ranger

*US threatens to cut off all aid to Pakistan*

United States is exerting extensive pressure on Pakistan and has threatened to cut off all military and economic aid to Islamabad if the American national Raymond Allen Davis who has killed two Pakistanis is not released soon.

According to reports it has now been confirmed that Raymond Davis was engaged in sensitive activities not only in Lahore but also in Islamabad and Peshawar was working as a contractor for U.S. Department of Defence and CIA.

The American threat to Pakistan came simultaneously from American State Department, Defence Department, an American powerful delegation and American Embassy in Islamabad. Unconfirmed reports say that the U.S. had restricted diplomatic contacts as a first stage and threatened to widen its reaction.

Early last week an American congressional delegation called on President Asif Ali Zardari at Aiwan-e-Sadr and Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani at PM House. 

The powerful American delegation had suggested that Raymond Davis be released before the damage is done.

The American team also made its message loud and clear to all the top policy-makers including Dr. Abdul Hafeez Sheikh, Finance Minister, Salman Faruqui, Secretary General to the President, Ch. Abdul Ghafoor, Chairman National Commission for Government Reforms, Ms. Hina Rabbani Khar, MOS for EAD/Finance, Senator Syeda Sughra Imam, Ms. Farahnaz Ispahani and Spokesperson to the President Mr. Farhatullah Babar and Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir.

The issues discussed ranged from Pak-US bilateral relations to mutual cooperation, fight against militancy, ROZs and security situation as well as other related issues.

Contrary to investigating officials deliberations and conclusion the American officials insist that Raymond Davis had acted in self-defense. Although officials agree that he may have taken a pre-emptive move fearing his detection and chase by the two men he killed.

Officials here say that since the case is in the court it would be highly unpopular for the Federal or Provincial government to intervene and release the American and risk public backlash. But officials also claim that if he is not released Pakistans economy already under severe pressure may not be able to withstand American pressures.

Many Pakistanis believe that the incident is the result of a free-hand given to selected foreigners by certain Pakistan officials and diplomats but it is too late to reverse the damage done to the country. Officials say that Pakistan has limited choice now.

US threatens to cut off all aid


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## VCheng

Sohni Dharti said:


> That's exactly what people are protesting: back room deals with no accountability.



Now is not the time to demand accountability. That can come later.

Accountability is not an on-off thing. The whole process of governance needs to be molded with accountability built into every step. Otherwise it just does not work.

This case cannot be discussed openly since it will expose far more of Pakistan's secrets and its arrangements than the US involvement in the internal affairs of Pakistan.

Be careful what you wish for!


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## The HBS Guy

US' patience with Pakistan seems to be running out. Next few days will be very interesting.


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## ashok321

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> This has nothing to do with being jazbati... If the government goes ahead with doing this, they are creating more problems than sorting them... simple as that...
> 
> Rambo should be hanged in public... Americans cannot do anything about it... The case is clear and yes... the scum of India will be on to us after a while saying we did not even do anything for a clear murderer of Pakistani people just because he was American...
> 
> strategic interests my foot...


 
Try to find a macro picture and not the micro....
One shoe does not fit every foot!


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## ashok321

DV RULES said:


> We demand only justice in the case & he has to punish over his crime. He is murderer of two intelligence worker. Where about GOP, GOP's most heads are sold, they are not thinking or worry about people but their bank balances in USA, black money accounts in Swiss and USA AND UK Banks, running business in foreign countries because of they are showing hesitation on this case.



But there are cases where pakistani diplomats were NOT prosecuted and returned home (spain-1975).

Munner Akram too!

So why you are trying to be selfish on one hand, and irrational on the other?


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## American Eagle

The issue remains Diplomatic Immunity.

Rather than repeat same info I and others have published here in recent days of rising Lahore crime rate, year to year up 15%; armed robbery of two Pakitani gentlemen shortly before the failed stick up attempt on US diplomat Mr. Davis, let's focus on the robbers.

Both were armed, used their loaded weapons for robbery,and were found to have the stolen two cell phones of the robbed two Pakitani men on them after their failed hold up of Mr. Davis. Thus they were clearly bandits.

Suicide of the wife on one robber ignores the fact her huband was "supporing his wife" with a life of crime. That is a tough hard fact.

The Pakistani police may well have to look at remarks and threats against public law and order by the two crooks family such that they may have to be taken into custody, disarmed, and held for making threats against public safey themselves.

Lawlessness and using crime as a means of making a living are a dark picture of a sub strata of Pakistani society.

While a small reaction of essentially family members have been overly covered by the Paksitani media internally, meanwhile the general law abiding public in Lahore have been subjected to two more terrorist suicide bombings including of a gathering at a minority sect Muslim mosque there in Lahore.

Diplomatic immunity gets this off dead center and is a hard fact and necessity. The courts are not the Foreign Office whose job this all is, the Foreign Office, not the courts.

Threats and posturing by politicians is a misguided reaction as the lesson learned for the two robbers is that crime does not pay.


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## greatsequence

I dont think this American is going anywhere the widow of one of the men killed has committed suicide which will increase pressure on the government.


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## JonAsad

Cut off aid, and we stop WoT, will save us lot of bucks.

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## Mani2020

Yanks do it fast, so we can block your supplies

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## The HBS Guy

greatsequence said:


> I dont think this American is going anywhere the widow of one of the men killed has committed suicide which will increase pressure on the government.


 
It's in larger interest of Pakistan to release him. You're already down, why do you want to further mess with a superpower?

Don't be emotional because you can't afford to.

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## Last Hope

Okay do it 
You cut aid, we cut WoT.
You cut aid, we cut his neck.
You cut aid, we cut further purchase of Olive class frigates.
You cut aid, we cut friendship.
You wanna fight, we wanna use nukes.


Now its upto you.
Interesting drama coming ahead.

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## VCheng

Aid or no aid, the Pakistani economy is in for a rough time in the next two years for sure, no matter what the resolution of this incident.


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## somebozo

If the government release him then there will be vigilante justice awaiting him outdoors.
The justice and democracy advocates are biggest criminals of the world themselves.


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> But there are cases where pakistani diplomats were NOT prosecuted and returned home (spain-1975).
> 
> Munner Akram too!
> 
> So why you are trying to be selfish on one hand, and irrational on the other?


 
Did the Pakistani diplomats killed two people in cold blood?
Comparing Munir Akram case of domestic violence and raymond davis multiple murders is silly, dont you think?


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## VCheng

Last Hope said:


> Okay do it
> You cut aid, we cut WoT.
> You cut aid, we cut his neck.
> You cut aid, we cut further purchase of Olive class frigates.
> You cut aid, we cut friendship.
> You wanna fight, we wanna use nukes.
> 
> 
> Now its upto you.
> Interesting drama coming ahead.



"we wanna use nukes" is fine as words, but translating any such threat into action is a grave matter indeed.

I would suggest being more mature in expressing such threats so flippantly.

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## DV RULES

Sohni Dharti said:


> And there are people in PAF who want to keep buying more F-16s.
> 
> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, ...


 
We must understand one thing for us, no partnership at cost of compromise of national interests and respect. 
WE have to change this our monopolize policy, Look at India, playing with both of Russia & US. Hell with F-16, why not Mig or SU? Open your new direction, keep balance with relations.

More over its not in favor of US to cut support because US has more regional interests with Pakistan than Pakistan has interests with USA. US will suffer more than Pakistan if he cuts support.

These are all tricks of pressure and Pakistan has to make clear words and that is all. 

But where MEN like Rehman Malik & Asif Ali Zardari who know who will say first YES BOSS.!


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## The HBS Guy

Last Hope said:


> Okay do it
> You cut aid, we cut WoT.
> You cut aid, we cut his neck.
> You cut aid, we cut further purchase of Olive class frigates.
> You cut aid, we cut friendship.



And what happens then? 

Even in worst case scenario, US will airlift all its forces from A'stan and head back home.

What will happen to Pakistan then?

What happens to your economy when US puts sanctions on you?



Last Hope said:


> You wanna fight, we wanna use nukes.



lol Threatening USA with nukes, are we?

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## Mani2020

The HBS Guy said:


> It's in larger interest of Pakistan to release him. You're already down, why do you want to further mess with a superpower?
> 
> Don't be emotional because you can't afford to.


 
If the government hands him over to US it will not do any good to them as they have already spoiled their image in public and by doing so they will just be inviting problems for themselves ,

Secondly since the Parliament has the control ,nothing the government can do without involving Parliament .

Thirdly US is of no more interest now for the people of Pakistan as we are loosing much then gaining (its only the government who is the slave of yanks ,not the people of Pakistan) ,everyone talks about aid but we have lost more than 40 billion dollars on WOT as of 2010 as compared to the few bucks yanks give us in aid and that too with restrictions .

I would be 1000 times happy if yanks cutt off their aid as it will further portray the negative image of US in front of local public and our dependency on yanks will soon be over also we will learn a lesson (which is important for us ,as we haven't learn from past) and also will work more towards dependance

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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Did the Pakistani diplomats killed two people in cold blood?
> Comparing Munir Akram case of domestic violence and raymond davis multiple murders is silly, dont you think?


 

Its the issue, that of crime, is, what we are talking about, and not about the MAGNITUDE of pinishment.

A Pakistani diplomat caught with heroin would have been sentenced for life in Spain - but he was released.

Its diplomatic immunity per se....


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## American Eagle

Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity under international law as cited by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Department of State in Washington in his case. Thus this young attorney's analysis is entirely mistaken and is another attempt to pander to and cause public confusion and commotion.

The issue is for the Pakistani Foreign Office to admit to diplomatic immunity and then for the US to remove Mr. Davis from Pakistan for good.

Pakistan has an internal law and order problem since partition which has been exacerbated by the a large number of acts of terrorism associated largely with the war on terrorism. The atmosphere inside Pakistan, especailly in Lahore is fear of lawlessness and armed interpersonal attacks, let alone the horror of suicide bombings using young boys and girls as expendible bombers on the part of the violent Taliban and al Qaida.

Personna non grata in Websters Dictionary has a very simple definition:

"An unwelcome person." In no way does that term obviate diplomatic immunity. That is flatly goofy.

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## duhastmish

US is making joke out of whole pakistan. crushing the confidence of the nation making them feel like the country is living on american coins. 

on other hand mullah team dont want to loose on this oppertunity to gain some strength either. 

tough times for nation - youth need to fight back . they need aegypt type revolution.


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## The HBS Guy

duhastmish said:


> US is making joke out of whole pakistan. crushing the confidence of the nation making them feel like the country is living on american coins.
> 
> on other hand mullah team dont want to loose on this oppertunity to gain some strength either.
> 
> tough times for nation - youth need to fight back . they need aegypt type revolution.


 
Revolutions are stuff of fantasy. Sounds good but seldom works.


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## Last Hope

The HBS Guy said:


> lol Threatening USA with nukes, are we?


 
Not on USA, but India. They will force them to stop.
You want Raymond?
Give us afia. 

Deal.

Pakistani government is in a dilema, if they gie Raymond, the people will be out of control and to the extend that will result in Martial Law to be imposed. If they dont, US Government is gonna cry.


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## Developereo

WAIVER OF DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY SOUGHT IN D.C. TRAFFIC DEATH. - Free Online Library



> A government attorney asked Wednesday for a waiver of diplomatic immunity so the United States can prosecute a Republic of Georgia envoy for the death of a 16-year-old girl in a car crash.
> 
> Based on the prosecutor's request, the State Department will formally ask the Georgian government to waive the diplomatic immunity of the second highest official in its embassy here, department spokesman Glyn Davies said Wednesday night.
> 
> In requesting the waiver in a letter to the State Department, U.S. Attorney Eric Holder Jr. said evidence points to a high rate of speed and possible alcohol use in the downtown Washington accident Friday night.



Diplomatic immunity can be waived in the interest of justice and bilateral relations.

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## The HBS Guy

American Eagle said:


> Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity under international law as cited by the US Ambassador to Pakistan and the US Department of State in Washington in his case. Thus this young attorney's analysis is entirely mistaken and is another attempt to pander to and cause public confusion and commotion.
> 
> The issue is for the Pakistani Foreign Office to admit to diplomatic immunity and then for the US to remove Mr. Davis from Pakistan for good.
> 
> Pakistan has an internal law and order problem since partition which has been exacerbated by the a large number of acts of terrorism associated largely with the war on terrorism. The atmosphere inside Pakistan, especailly in Lahore is fear of lawlessness and armed interpersonal attacks, let alone the horror of suicide bombings using young boys and girls as expendible bombers on the part of the violent Taliban and al Qaida.
> 
> Personna non grata in Websters Dictionary has a very simple definition:
> 
> "An unwelcome person." In no way does that term obviate diplomatic immunity. That is flatly goofy.


 
He is going to be released. Pakistani govt. is just buying time.


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Its the issue, that of crime, is, what we are talking about, and not about the MAGNITUDE of pinishment.
> 
> A Pakistani diplomat caught with heroin would have been sentenced for life in Spain - but he was released.
> 
> Its diplomatic immunity per se....


 
You have assumed he has diplomatic immunity? 
The way i see it, Pakistani courts will decide his immunity.

Till then, no point in giving lectures on what diplomatic immunity mean, we all know what it means.

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## duhastmish

Last Hope said:


> Not on USA, but India. They will force them to stop.
> You want Raymond?
> Give us afia.
> 
> Deal.
> 
> Pakistani government is in a dilema, if they gie Raymond, the people will be out of control and to the extend that will result in Martial Law to be imposed. If they dont, US Government is gonna cry.


 
Dont we all know what is going to happen ?????

these big talk and nuke hit will end up bending the knees and letting Mr. Raymond walk free.

and if US is true and he shot a few terrorist - then he must be given award for hi bravery. 

*i see a good national geographic episode in making : Jailed in Pakistan.*

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## The HBS Guy

Sohni Dharti said:


> WAIVER OF DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY SOUGHT IN D.C. TRAFFIC DEATH. - Free Online Library
> 
> 
> 
> Diplomatic immunity can be waived in the interest of justice and bilateral relations.


 
No. Not when the person is employed in the embassy. 

Mr. Davis, as the State deptt. has claimed, was involved in operations of US embassy in Pakistan under diplomatic cover.


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## ashok321

Sohni Dharti said:


> WAIVER OF DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY SOUGHT IN D.C. TRAFFIC DEATH. - Free Online Library
> 
> 
> 
> Diplomatic immunity can be waived in the interest of justice and bilateral relations.


 

So what is stopping Pakistan to do the same with USA - ask for RDs DI waiver - simple no?


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## DV RULES

More over its not in favor of US to cut support because US has more regional interests with Pakistan than Pakistan has interests with USA. US will suffer more than Pakistan if he cuts support.

These are all tricks of pressure and Pakistan has to make clear words and that is all. 

But where MEN like Rehman Malik & Asif Ali Zardari who know who will say first YES BOSS.!

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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> And what happens then?
> 
> Even in worst case scenario, US will airlift all its forces from A'stan and head back home.
> 
> What will happen to Pakistan then?
> 
> What happens to your economy when US puts sanctions on you?
> 
> 
> 
> lol Threatening USA with nukes, are we?


 
It will not be the first time US will put sanctions on us? nor it will be the first time US packs up from Afghanistan,
Remember what happened in the 80's.. 
Left us in the middle of the mess and now billions of dollars later they are still dealing with the mess, 
What will happen if the US repeats the same mistake again?
Will It? 
You bet it will,
You can dream but its not going to happen..
If it did-- the consequences
You figure.


----------



## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> You have assumed he has diplomatic immunity?
> The way i see it, Pakistani courts will decide his immunity.


 
It doesn't work that way. Diplomatic immunity is proposed by the sender state to the host state and once the host state accepts the proposal, diplomatic immunity is granted. 

All this happens before the person lands in the host country. 

Courts have no jurisdiction on this and it is true for all countries around the world, not just Pakistan.

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> It will not be the first time US will put sanctions on us? nor it will be the first time US packs up from Afghanistan,
> Remember what happened in the 80's..
> Left us in the middle of the mess and now they are dealing with the mess,
> What will happen if the us repeats the same mistake again?
> You figure.


 
You're failing to see the larger picture my friend. 

It's not the US which will suffer, it will be Pakistan and most importantly, Pakistan's economy.

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## Developereo

duhastmish said:


> on other hand mullah team dont want to loose on this oppertunity to gain some strength either.


 
What in God's name do mullahs have to do with this?

Standing up for Pakistan against American bullying does not make one a terrorist or mullah supporter.

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## Last Hope

duhastmish said:


> *i see a good national geographic episode in making : Jailed in Pakistan.*


 
He killed terrorists?
You always can argue over it.
Who are terrorists by the way?

Some one who has got a unlicensed gun, and kills other fellow.
Some one who kills and over runs the eye witness and some one who tries to escape the scene.


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## Lankan Ranger

*Sorry to say this but friends

Pakistan Economy under serious trouble 

IMF already pressurizing Pakistan for budget cuts 

I think Pakistan will to cut spending on all sectors 
*


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## Lankan Ranger

*The total debt and liabilities of Pakistan have reached a record 10 trillion rupees (US$117 billion), as the government violated almost all the limits on borrowing imposed in the Fiscal Responsibility and Debt Limitation Act. 

Every Pakistani owes more than 57,000 rupees per head to foreign and domestic lenders, compared with 22,000 rupees per head when the present government took over in 2008. 

The country this year has to spend almost 900 billion rupees on debt servicing alone, which is five times more than the revised federal development budget. The financing of a large fiscal deficit is forcing the government to rely on borrowing from the central bank and commercial banks, triggering inflation and squeezing the private sector. 
*

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan


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## Developereo

The HBS Guy said:


> No. Not when the person is employed in the embassy.
> 
> Mr. Davis, as the State deptt. has claimed, was involved in operations of US embassy in Pakistan under diplomatic cover.



English much?

A waiver of diplomatic immunity is applicable precisely for people who are covered by such immunity. Otherwise, there is no need for a waiver.



ashok321 said:


> So what is stopping Pakistan to do the same with USA - ask for RDs DI waiver - simple no?


 
Precisely the right question for the Pakistani government.

Request a waiver and put the Americans on the spot.
Do they support the rule of law, or special treatment for their killers?


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## The HBS Guy

Last Hope said:


> Not on USA, but India. They will force them to stop.



You are overestimating India's worth to the US.


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## American Eagle

*The Washington Post *

AP sources: Pakistan likely to release US diplomat

By KIMBERLY DOZIER
The Associated Press 
Friday, February 4, 2011; 8:22 PM 

WASHINGTON -- Pakistani officials are indicating that a U.S. diplomat charged with murder in Pakistan may soon be released. 

Two Pakistani officials in the United States told The Associated Press on Friday they expect Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents U.S. officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status. The Pakistani officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter. U.S. officials say Raymond Davis, who works at the consulate in Lahore, acted in self-defense in shooting and killing two armed men who approached him on the street after robbing someone else. 

Publicly, Pakistani officials have avoided definitive statements on whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity, saying his fate is up to the court. But the officials who spoke to AP said their government had to let the case proceed until the U.S. produced the necessary documents on Davis' status. *They said Pakistani police believed the evidence supported Davis' story. *

Davis was arrested soon after the Jan. 27 shootings. He made a brief appearance in court Thursday, and his next appearance is set for Feb. 11.


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## The HBS Guy

Sohni Dharti said:


> English much?
> 
> A waiver of diplomatic immunity is applicable precisely for people who are covered by such immunity. Otherwise, there is no need for a waiver.


 
Yes but only when the sender govt. approves to lift the diplomatic immunity. 

The US is unwilling in this case.


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## Imran Khan

please for god sake cut our aid and i beg from USA never ever give us aid anymore . all aid go to looters and cheaters of GOV and all loses face the nation


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## Lankan Ranger

*I am shocked!!!!

Pakistans debt reached US$117 billion & its still growing 

Its a huge amount 

Can anyone tell me who is the finance minister in Pakistan, What he is doing regarding this huge debt burden? 
*


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## pkd

Why Geo news and other channels are not giving space to that suicide incident. Surprisingly dawn news did much better than the other channels.


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## Developereo

The HBS Guy said:


> Yes but only when the sender govt. approves to lift the diplomatic immunity.
> 
> The US is unwilling in this case.


 
Pakistan should make the formal request for waiver and have the US on record as denying the waiver for an accused double murderer before the courts determined his guilt or innocence.


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## American Eagle

Sohni Dharti said:


> Do they support the rule of law, or special treatment for their killers?



Diplomatic immunity is the issue. Two criminals, robbers, stick up artists are the ones who put upon Mr. Davis, not vice versa.

Crime as a way of life is a sad way to make a living for your family in Pakistan. The vast majority of Pakistanis are honest, hardworking, and don't go around with illegal loaded guns sticking up honest Pakistani gentlemen, then moments later an American with diplomatic immunity.

Lahore's crime rate increased over 15% from 2009 to 2010. The atmosphere in Lahore is saddened by a combination of rising lawlessness and increasing acts of suicide bombers. I have great pity for the people of Lahore who are faced with such an atmosphere daily.


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## VCheng

pkd said:


> Why Geo news and other channels are not giving space to that suicide incident. Surprisingly dawn news did much better than the other channels.



The rhetoric that some sections of the press are intentionally spreading will die down: certain parties will see to it that such restraint is implemented.


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## The HBS Guy

Sohni Dharti said:


> Pakistan should make the formal request for waiver and have the US on record as denying the waiver for an accused double murderer before the courts determined his guilt or innocence.


 
Look your point has two fallacies. 

1. It will not achieve much apart from some face saving for the troubled GoP.

2. Mr. Davis' case, solely on self-defence grounds, is pretty solid.

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## pkd

American Eagle said:


> Diplomatic immunity is the issue. *Two criminals, robbers*, stick up artists are the ones who put upon Mr. Davis, not vice versa.


I am sorry but this has yet to be proven in the court.



American Eagle said:


> Crime as a way of life is a sad way to make a living for your family in Pakistan.
> 
> Lahore's crime rate increased over 15% from 2009 to 2010. The atmosphere in Lahore is saddened by a combination of rising lawlessness and increasing acts of suicide bombers. I have great pity for the people of Lahore who are faced with such an atmosphere daily.


 
16,204 Murders in US in a year.

Murders (most recent) by country


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## Developereo

American Eagle said:


> Diplomatic immunity is the issue. Two criminals, robbers, stick up artists are the ones who put upon Mr. Davis, not vice versa.



No, the issue is to let the courts decide his guilt or innocence, like any other accused double murderer would face. If the US feels strongly, they can offer to send an American forensics team to work alongside Pakistani police.



American Eagle said:


> Crime as a way of life is a sad way to make a living for your family in Pakistan.



Crime occurs all over the world. It doesn't excuse trigger-happy whackjobs going around shooting people because they are paranoid.



American Eagle said:


> The vast majority of Pakistanis are honest, hardworking


 
Spare us this condescending footnote in all your posts. We know exactly how you feel about Pakistan and Pakistanis.


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## Developereo

The HBS Guy said:


> Look your point has two fallacies.
> 
> 1. It will not achieve much apart from some face saving for the troubled GoP.
> 
> 2. Mr. Davis' case, solely on self-defence grounds, is pretty solid.



How exactly is that a 'fallacy'?

1. It will put the US on record as bypassing the rule of law for a double accused murderer.

2. No case is solid until the court delivers its verdict. If the US is so confident in their case, why not let justice take its course?


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> You're failing to see the larger picture my friend.
> 
> It's not the US which will suffer, it will be Pakistan and most importantly, Pakistan's economy.


 
Sanctions always lead to the down fall of the economy, but it will reduce the losses we are suffering from WoT, we survived the sanctions before, no big deal in it, but the question is why the hell will USA put sanctions on Pakistan because of one man Davis? The talk is of cutting aid isn't it?

If it was meant to be a free piece of advice to US from your part, then Ok, but too much assumption can lead to wrong implications.

Pakistan will not be the only one which will suffer, the whole Afghanistan will suffer, we did a very good job in containing the talibs threat before, we can do it again 
Back to the old equation it will be.. 
Only difference is this time Pakistan is a Nuclear Armed State and no body takes risks with a nuclear State, nor any one will want it to fail.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> US' patience with Pakistan seems to be running out.


 
Interesting manner of framing the issue, since it is not Pakistan that has intelligence agents, who obtained visa's on fraudulent identities, running around the US shooting down American citizens in broad daylight in the streets, and then refusing to allow the legal system to function and determine the status of the accused.

It is an indication of the distorted world we live in, that the 'guilty/offending party' can take umbrage at the victim's attempts to seek justice for a crime.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Kanna said:


> *I am shocked!!!!
> 
> Pakistans debt reached US$117 billion & its still growing
> 
> Its a huge amount
> 
> Can anyone tell me who is the finance minister in Pakistan, What he is doing regarding this huge debt burden?
> *


The finance minister has made recommendations on increasing revenue and cutting expenses - the problem is that there is no political will to implement the recommendations.


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## The HBS Guy

Sohni Dharti said:


> How exactly is that a 'fallacy'?
> 
> 1. It will put the US on record as bypassing the rule of law for a double accused murderer.
> 
> 2. No case is solid until the court delivers its verdict. If the US is so confident in their case, why not let justice take its course?


 
If justice were to take its own course, Davis would never have been arrested in the first place. 

You want to play justice-justice? How about starting with upholding your international commitments first?

Vienna convention comes to mind. 

You have illegally arrested a person claiming diplomatic immunity when you couldn't as per your international obligations and now you are talking about justice. Ironical, isn't it?


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## ashok321

Lahore shooting: 'Two dead were ISI operatives'




> The government is contemplating to ask the US to waive Davis's immunity and try him in an American court, the officials said.
> 
> A US embassy official told the daily the American government had "no plans yet to agree on such a step".




Two dead Pakistani were intelligence operatives: Report


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## Guli Danda

Last Hope said:


> Okay do it
> You cut aid, we cut WoT.
> You cut aid, we cut his neck.
> You cut aid, we cut further purchase of Olive class frigates.
> You cut aid, we cut friendship.
> You wanna fight, we wanna use nukes.
> 
> 
> Now its upto you.
> Interesting drama coming ahead.


 
Your posts implicates that you want aid from USA or else you ll start crying.
Why are you so willing to get more aids?


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Interesting manner of framing the issue, since it is not Pakistan that has intelligence agents, who obtained visa's on fraudulent identities, running around the US shooting down American citizens in broad daylight in the streets, and then refusing to allow the legal system to function and determine the status of the accused.
> 
> It is an indication of the distorted world we live in, that the 'guilty/offending party' can take umbrage at the victim's attempts to seek justice for a crime.


 
This whole matter began on a wrong footing. Pakistan arrested a person claiming diplomatic immunity when according to Vienna Convention, it could not have.


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## DV RULES

American Eagle said:


> Diplomatic immunity is the issue. Two criminals, robbers, stick up artists are the ones who put upon Mr. Davis, not vice versa.
> 
> Crime as a way of life is a sad way to make a living for your family in Pakistan. The vast majority of Pakistanis are honest, hardworking, and don't go around with illegal loaded guns sticking up honest Pakistani gentlemen, then moments later an American with diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Lahore's crime rate increased over 15% from 2009 to 2010. The atmosphere in Lahore is saddened by a combination of rising lawlessness and increasing acts of suicide bombers. I have great pity for the people of Lahore who are faced with such an atmosphere daily.


 

*Just stop saying two robbers without any evidence, terrorist who killed innocents has to face court & punishment.

It was a terror act.
Why US government so interesting to support a terrorist?*


What about crime rate then i am referring you site to check; 

United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people 

India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
(I didn't find Pakistan there)

Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster


United states: 5.62 per 100,000
Pakistan : 3.60 per 100,000

Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rates


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> This whole matter began on a wrong footing. Pakistan arrested a person claiming diplomatic immunity when according to Vienna Convention, it could not have.


Actually the problem is that RD's diplomatic immunity is in question, given that he was not issued a diplomatic visa (which has now been admitted by the US embassy) and his actual job title at the consulate/embassy was unclear.

Not to mention that the US initially indicated that Raymond Davis was not even his name, which would indicate that he obtained a visa on a fraudulent identity and was possibly abetted in that endeavor by the US Government.

Pakistan's arrest of the individual was therefore correct - it is the US response that has been arrogant and demeaning.


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## Developereo

The HBS Guy said:


> If justice were to take its own course, Davis would never have been arrested in the first place.
> 
> You want to play justice-justice? How about starting with upholding your international commitments first?
> 
> Vienna convention comes to mind.
> 
> You have illegally arrested a person claiming diplomatic immunity when you couldn't as per your international obligations and now you are talking about justice. Ironical, isn't it?


 
He was not carrying diplomatic papers, was driving a car with illegal (let alone non-diplomatic) plates and brandished a weapon at law enforcement. It was perfectly legal to arrest him at the time.

Even if it is later established that he has immmunity, said immunity can be waived by the US so a proper investigation can determine his guilt or innocence.

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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> It doesn't work that way. Diplomatic immunity is proposed by the sender state to the host state and once the host state accepts the proposal, diplomatic immunity is granted.



I agree here, right procedure.



The HBS Guy said:


> All this happens before the person lands in the host country.



No- this is where you are wrong, this happens when the diplomat with diplomatic passport arrives in the host state-- he is a diplomat alright-- but by default he does not have diplomatic immunity-- On the request of sender country the foreign office grants immunity to the diplomat. The host country is liable to grant diplomatic immunity if requested.

Here is where the difference lies-- Mr Davis has no diplomatic immunity-- otherwise it was a clear cut case of a diplomat with immunity set free under agreement with Geneva convention. 
The whole fuss, drama of bribing, cutting of aid threat, defense deals clout, sanctions is the way of US to free him illegally. Other wise whats the point of all that? 

Even a individual with little common sense can understand if some one tries to bribe or give threats to get some thing which is supposed to be right-- there is some thing wrong in it.



The HBS Guy said:


> Courts have no jurisdiction on this and it is true for all countries around the world, not just Pakistan.


 
If the case of immunity is complicated, or is not established, courts have all the say in it.

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## Thomas

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think they robbed anyone, the so called Dr Mudassar is nowhere to be found and have not once appeared in front of TV




Why should he with the lynch mob atmosphere? It would only make him a target himself.

Something I have been wondering is why doesn't the families of those killed produce the permits showing the 2 had legal weapons? Or for that matter why have no journalists produced them? and if they had no valid gun permits doesn't it add more weight to them being robbers?


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## AstanoshKhan

*Fahims wife commits suicide, saying I Prefer Death over Injustice*

Submitted by HQ on February 7, 2011

FAISALABAD  The widow of Mohammad Fahim shot dead by US national Raymond Davis in Lahore committed suicide after consuming poisonous pills on Sunday.







However, doctors refused to confirm her death, saying she was alive but in critical condition at ICU. But the relatives of Fahims widow, Shumaila Kanwal, told the media that she had expired. They said after the murder of Fahim, Shumaila came to her parents house at 189 RB Rasoolpur where she took poisonous pills. She was rushed to Allied Hospital. Doctors tried to save her life but she died. The family members alleged that Shumaila was kept at general ward for five hours and later when media flashed the news of her suicide attempt, the hospital authorities shifted her to the emergency ward where she died. Moments before her death when Shumaila regained her senses at hospital, she talked to media and burst into tears. She said her husband was innocent and she wanted justice. She said she attempted suicide because she believed that her husbands killer would be freed without trial.

*Agencies add: Shumaila said in a statement recorded by the doctor: I do not expect any justice from this government. That is why I want to kill myself.*

Shumaila also spoke to reporters after arriving at the hospital, saying *I want blood for blood. The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion,* she said. The shootings by Raymond Davis have stoked anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, feelings that could be further inflamed by Shumailas death.

Monitoring Desk adds: Shumaila breathed her last on late Sunday night, reported private TV channels.


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

since the very first day i believed that its not that simple as it looks, my personal idea was they were ISI operatives following davis, he found out and shot them down, took the pictures for identification.......

After watching hameed gul sahab's interview, i just have this thing inside, that they might be ISI operatives and tried to work with davis, or davis was going to recruit them but failed....this is what washington post was trying to say i guess?


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

Terminal X on facebook posted a picture of an unidentified relative , last to see the widow


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## AstanoshKhan

*PPP Govt. set to release the CIA Terrorist*

Submitted by HQ on February 7, 2011  3:23 am


*Certain unconfirmed reports are suggesting that the Interior Minister Rehman Malik has dispatched a private team of unidentified personnel to arrange a secret release of the American terrorist Raymond Allen Davis who was caught last week after killing two Pakistani young men in Lahore. The team will secure the release of the terrorist and hand him over to the American Consulate in Lahore. Another source requesting complete anonymity was quoted as saying that he will be boarded on a chartered aircraft at Lahore Airport and transported over to the US.*






*The PPP traitors are once again planning on selling the dignity of Pakistan against Dollars and Political favors*. *Moreover, they are going to announce a fake reason for releasing him by blaming it all on the Pakistan Army to defame it. They are going to claim that the US had threatened to block the military aid, and therefore the Pakistan Army pressurized the Federal Govt. to release the American, this news however will be concocted and fabricated, in order to direct public anger at the Pakistan Army instead of the traitor Government of PPP.*

If this news in fact turns out to be true, Rehman Malik and all American agents serving in different ministries in the Pakistan Government should remember that the nations wrath shall befall them and soon they will be avenged for such treachery by the people of Pakistan. The examples of Tunisia and Egypt are fresh and the Pakistani people are watching as the powerful pro-American Governments are shattering, owing to public anger and fury. The repercussions of such actions shall prove to be terminal for this Government, which is already handicapped and deemed to be a major failure in and outside Pakistan.

*We are sincerely hoping that this news is not true and that Raymond Allen Davis, the American terrorist who was caught red-handed, will face a just trial in the Pakistani courts of law, and will not be granted any sort of immunity or pardon by the court or by the President.*


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## Thomas

DV RULES said:


> *Just stop saying two robbers without any evidence, terrorist who killed innocents has to face court & punishment.
> 
> It was a terror act.
> Why US government so interesting to support a terrorist?*
> 
> 
> What about crime rate then i am referring you site to check;
> 
> United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
> 
> India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
> (I didn't find Pakistan there)
> 
> Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
> 
> 
> United states: 5.62 per 100,000
> Pakistan : 3.60 per 100,000
> 
> Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rates



he has as much right to say 2 robbers as others to say the 2 were murdered. He bases his statements on what the police have said unlike many here who refuse to believe the police. Many Pakistani's refuse to believe they are robbers despite the evidence. And even if the court declared it was an act of self defense people would scream Government cover-up.

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## Imran Khan

i am 100000000000000% sure these PPP dalals will relese him out of law


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thomas said:


> and if they had no valid gun permits doesn't it add more weight to them being robbers?


 
No, because possession of weapons without legal permits is a huge problem in Pakistan, and therefore the lack of a permit is not evidence of being criminals, though it would be a crime itself.

In any case, did Raymond Davis have permits for the weapons he was carrying?

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## The HBS Guy

Thomas said:


> he has as much right to say 2 robbers as others to say the 2 were murdered. He bases his statements on what the police have said unlike many here who refuse to believe the police. Many Pakistani's refuse to believe they are robbers despite the evidence. And even if the court declared it was an act of self defense people would scream Government cover-up.


 
To quote a senior Pakistani journalist, it's basically a game of political ping-pong being played by the Federal govt. of Pakistan and the local Punjab govt. 

Both are run by politically opposite parties and none wants to risk public anger by stating that Mr. Davis is indeed diplomatically immune.


----------



## Imran Khan

Thomas said:


> he has as much right to say 2 robbers as others to say the 2 were murdered. He bases his statements on what the police have said unlike many here who refuse to believe the police. Many Pakistani's refuse to believe they are robbers despite the evidence. And even if the court declared it was an act of self defense people would scream Government cover-up.


 
heeeeey dude dont bla bla bla i am sick from you robbers robbers drama are they proved robbers??/ and who are you to claim them robbers when case is in court? what a shame robbers families never comet suicide you maroon 

you can see you attitude and judge how much world hate your country and Americans . USA is sick nation even i cant call them humen after i see this suicide of women for justice. and much much shame for Pakistani GOV  our blood is cheap

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Both are run by politically opposite parties and none wants to risk public anger by stating that Mr. Davis is indeed diplomatically immune.


 
Public anger at such a declaration would be justified, given the facts around the case we know - false identity and no diplomatic visa (accepted by US officials), and no clear job description, not to mention that even the conventions on immunity have certain clauses under which immunity might not apply.

The process should go through the courts, with the US (and the GoP, if it supports the US position of diplomatic immunity for Davis) making their case in front of the court.

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## VelocuR

How clever America send secret agents to sneak around Pakistan? Now America says to threaten cut off aid to Pakistan. What a devil game!

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## Last Hope

Guli Danda said:


> Your posts implicates that you want aid from USA or else you ll start crying.
> Why are you so willing to get more aids?


 
Be mature and see it all from our PoVs. 



Anyways, this is what I found:


> According to the US embassy in Islamabad, he saw that one of them had a gun. Apparently fearing that he was about to be robbed, he opened fire, killing both.



This was said by US Embassy, which means, it is confirmed he said that. 
He also says that he feared his life, whereas they didnt even point at him!
You guys are labelling them as terrorists where they didnt even attempt to rob him?

Just open Dawn news and see it live. He was having a 9mm, 5 magzines, a pair of binoculars, 5 ATM cards, hightec wireless and pictures of stratigic places in Pakistan.

He was a spy, so stop saving him


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## RescueRanger

Yawn... This news?


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> no diplomatic visa (accepted by US officials),


 
Please see the first few minutes of this video. 






As far as other details are concerned, they can all be proved. 

You don't seriously think it's difficult for the US to make/create documents, do you?

The first and foremost thing is diplomatic immunity of Mr. Davis which I find difficult to doubt the existence of.


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## ashok321

Guys leave aside everything, and tell us, how these alleged robbers became ISI operatives?

Is the present gov pulling the wool over Pakistani folks and manufacturing face saving formula to release RD!!!


----------



## Thomas

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> No, because possession of weapons without legal permits is a huge problem in Pakistan, and therefore the lack of a permit is not evidence of being criminals, though it would be a crime itself.
> 
> In any case, did Raymond Davis have permits for the weapons he was carrying?



Yet did not the familes of the dead say that they carried legal weapons? if they lied about that then what else are they covering up? 

as far as Davis having a gun none of us can really say what current Government policy for foriegn agents working with the Pakistan Goverment is. Does a Special Forces soldier or CIA field agent who work closely with Government forces have gun permits? yet they do carry weapons for self defense in the field with tacit Government approval.


----------



## Thomas

ashok321 said:


> Guys leave aside everything, and tell us, how these alleged robbers became ISI operatives?
> 
> Is the present gov pulling the wool over Pakistani folks and manufacturing face saving formula to release RD!!!



thats just one persons view, I don't think 99.9% of the people here think they were ISI.


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## Frankenstein

Justice will be served, we are with our sister

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## Ahmad

a huge dilema for GoP.


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## DV RULES

Thomas said:


> he has as much right to say 2 robbers as others to say the 2 were murdered. He bases his statements on what the police have said unlike many here who refuse to believe the police. Many Pakistani's refuse to believe they are robbers despite the evidence. And even if the court declared it was an act of self defense people would scream Government cover-up.


 

If in your sight crow is still white then i have nothing to say.

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## Veeru

*Two dead Pakistani were intelligence operatives: report*

The Punjab government has sought assistance from the federal government in securing the custody of the three American men accused of killing the third Pakistan while they were rushing to help Davis.

"We have sought access to get custody of these accused because they are wanted by the Punjab police in connection to the Raymond Davis case," said Pervez Rashid, spokesman for the Punjab Chief Minister."

The interior ministry has placed the names of the three Americans, including the driver of the US consulate in Lahore, on the Exit Control List,&#65533; an Interior Ministry official was quoted as saying by The Express Tribune.The Exit Control List empowers the government to prevent any person from leaving Pakistan.The Interior Ministry, through the Foreign Office, has written to the US consulate, asking for the three Americans to be handed over to Punjab Police, the Interior Ministry official said.

He declined to name the three Americans, saying it might compromise the investigation. The US Embassy said it was not aware of these developments."We have not received any such information on the issue as yet," said Courtney Beale, acting spokesperson for the Embassy.

Davis is currently in police custody in Lahore and Pakistani leaders have rejected US demands for him to be released on the ground that he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Two dead Pakistani were intelligence operatives: report, IBN Live News


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Please see the first few minutes of this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as other details are concerned, they can all be proved.
> 
> You don't seriously think it's difficult for the US to make/create documents, do you?
> 
> The first and foremost thing is diplomatic immunity of Mr. Davis which I find difficult to doubt the existence of.


We really frown on arguments conducted through videos. You can post a link to the video as a source supporting your argument, but please summarize whatever argument is being made in the video and tell us at what point in the video the argument is made.

If I watched every video posted on this forum to support some argument or the other, that is pretty much all I would be able to do all day.

So please redo your post keeping the above in mind.
*
This applies to everyone - do not use videos as support for your argument unless you follow the above instructions to go with it.*

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## s90

They had criminal record and are intel operative as well? - It doesn't add up.


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## Bang Galore

Glorious Resolve said:


> If the case of immunity is complicated, or is not established, courts have all the say in it.


 
Actually they don't. This is a matter to be decided by the foreign office, not courts. This is a dangerous game that is being played, a resulting corollary using your argument would be for the American court trying a case wherein the present & former ISI chiefs have been named to, by your rule determine that they are liable regardless of the fact that Pakistan claims immunity for them. There will be no joy for Pakistan, going down that street.


----------



## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> We really frown on arguments conducted through videos. You can post a link to the video as a source supporting your argument, but please summarize whatever argument is being made in the video and tell us at what point in the video the argument is made.
> 
> If I watched every video posted on this forum to support some argument or the other, that is pretty much all I would be able to do all day.
> 
> So please redo your post keeping the above in mind.
> *
> This applies to everyone - do not use videos as support for your argument unless you follow the above instructions to go with it.*


 
Fair enough. 

Basically in the video, Mr. Najam Sethi, a senior Pakistani journalist, produces before camera, a letter written by US State deptt. dated sometime earlier before RD had arrived in Pakistan. 

The purpose of RD's visit is stated to be 'Official Business' with the US embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan.

Pakistan accepted that letter and granted RD the permit to visit. 

Later on, Pakistan extends the permit while RD is still in Pakistan and the earlier permit has expired. 

This clearly, points out that Mr. Davis indeed enjoys diplomatic immunity. 

That's what the video is about, in a nutshell.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> As far as other details are concerned, they can all be proved.
> 
> You don't seriously think it's difficult for the US to make/create documents, do you?
> 
> The first and foremost thing is diplomatic immunity of Mr. Davis which I find difficult to doubt the existence of.



_ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.

A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a &#8220;non-diplomatic staff&#8221; of the US embassy.

The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.

Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a &#8220;business official&#8221; visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.

The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis.

Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country.

To a question if a non-diplomatic staff given limited-diplomatic immunity can be treated like those diplomats who under the Geneva Convention enjoy absolute immunity, the Foreign Office source gave an unambiguous &#8220;No&#8221;.​_Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat​
_
&#8220;I repeat, I never said that Raymond Davis went to Pakistan with a diplomatic visa, rather than holding a diplomatic passport, he said. Some media quoted the interior minister as saying on Wednesday that Raymond Davis had a diplomatic passport & a diplomatic visa.​_Raymond Davis Has Diplomatic Passport, Not Visa: Rehman Malik | Breaking News​
Given the fact that images of Davis's passport showing a non-diplomatic visa have been released to the media, and the Interior Minister has issued a public statement declaring that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, and the US embassy has accepted the fact that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, it will be rather hard to 'forge documents' showing Davis to have a diplomatic visa at this point.

It will still be hard to explain why the US government initially indicated that Raymond Davis was not even his real name, but no doubt the US can forge a fake identity for him to support the fake name.

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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> _ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.
> 
> A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a non-diplomatic staff of the US embassy.
> 
> The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.
> 
> Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a business official visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.
> 
> The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis.
> 
> Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country.
> 
> To a question if a non-diplomatic staff given limited-diplomatic immunity can be treated like those diplomats who under the Geneva Convention enjoy absolute immunity, the Foreign Office source gave an unambiguous No.​_
> Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat​



This is an unsubstantiated media report, AM. Aren't we used to such 'according to sources' reports?



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> _
> I repeat, I never said that Raymond Davis went to Pakistan with a diplomatic visa, rather than holding a diplomatic passport, he said. Some media quoted the interior minister as saying on Wednesday that Raymond Davis had a diplomatic passport & a diplomatic visa.​_Raymond Davis Has Diplomatic Passport, Not Visa: Rehman Malik | Breaking News​
> Given the fact that images of Davis's passport showing a non-diplomatic visa have been released to the media, and the Interior Minister has issued a public statement declaring that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, and the US embassy has accepted the fact that Davis did not have a diplomatic visa, it will be rather hard to 'forge documents' showing Davis to have a diplomatic visa at this point.
> 
> 
> It will still be hard to explain why the US government initially indicated that Raymond Davis was not even his real name, no doubt the US can forge a fake identity for him to support the fake name.


 
Look, this is what he has said:

" He holds a diplomatic passport but not visa."

Fair enough. But then no such thing as diplomatic viss is required for diplomatic immunity in the first place.

The fact that the Pakistani foreign office accepted US state deptt.'s letter requesting permit for Mr. Davis' visit to Pakistan, and then later extended it, proves that Davis is indeed diplomatically immune.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

BTW, where are Raymond Davis's family or friends in the US? His image and story have been flashed around on the media quite a bit now, but I haven't seen anything on his family and/or friends speaking to the media about his return and 'how is such a great guy who would never kill innocent people etc.'

High School and college he attended? Friends/relatives who knew him from then?

Anyone have links to any such reports, or is the 'fake identity' necessitating that no one speaks out about him.

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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> BTW, where are Raymond Davis's family or friends in the US? His image and story have been flashed around on the media quite a bit now, but I haven't seen anything on his family and/or friends speaking to the media about his return and 'how is such a great guy who would never kill innocent people etc.'
> 
> High School and college he attended? Friends/relatives who knew him from then?
> 
> Anyone have links to any such reports, or is the 'fake identity' necessitating that no one speaks out about him.


 
Personal details of an intelligence operative are most likely to be kept away from the limelight.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> This is an unsubstantiated media report, AM. Aren't we used to such 'according to sources' reports?


The report makes certain legal arguments with respect to the status of Davis, and in that context it actually relates to your following comments:


> Fair enough. But then no such thing as diplomatic viss is required for diplomatic immunity in the first place.


That is precisely the quandary at the moment - whether Davis has absolute immunity, limited immunity or no immunity.


> The fact that the Pakistani foreign office accepted US state deptt.'s letter requesting permit for Mr. Davis' visit to Pakistan, and then later extended it, proves that Davis is indeed diplomatically immune.


The FO has made no official comment on that yet has it?

And the FO issued a regular visa to Davis, as has been proved without doubt at this point, so how does that translate into the foreign office accepting that Davis was a diplomat and had absolute diplomatic immunity?


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## Safriz

117 Billion is not massive,compared to the debt of many other countries in the world which have debts running in many trillions..UK pays 120 million pound interest each day on her 4.8 trillion pound debt.USA's debt runs into double figure trillions.
If the will and political leadership is there to pay off the debt,we can pay it soon enough..May not be in currency but can be in Minerals and commodities...
Say for example Pakistan makes a deal with lenders that we don't have cash,but we can pay in commodities,then mine gold,iron,titanium and whatever and pay off in that form..I think such a deal is possible and according to international financial laws..
Lenders cannot be too choosy when it comes to receiving back their money..


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Personal details of an intelligence operative are most likely to be kept away from the limelight.


 
His picture and 'name' are all over the media. I am pretty sure his days as an 'intelligence operative' posted in foreign nations are over - a desk job in the US most likely.

And given that his picture and 'name' are all over the media, his family, friends and relatives should have come forth at this point, and we could have at least confirmed whether or not Raymond Davis was his real name. 

At this point Raymond Davis appears to be a fraudulent identity, and 'spies' are not diplomats - I doubt any 'entry' given by the host nation to an intelligence operative using a fraudulent identity will qualify for diplomatic immunity - it is a violation of the trust and responsibility given by the host government when according diplomatic status to individuals from another nation.


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## Safriz

on the other hand when 10s of thousands of USA's soldiers are next doors to Pakistan,totally relying on Supply line running through Pakistan,they will be stupid enough to annoy Pakistan due to one criminal.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> 'spies' are not diplomats


 
They can be. The ambassadorial tussle that our (Indian and Pakistani) embassies regularly indulge in is a case in point.

It happens all the time.


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## Imran Khan

Frankenstein said:


> Justice will be served, we are with our sister


 
justice huh my foot its pakistan the most puppet state on earth . they will set free him and every one will forget after few days . can some body remember sialkot brothers murder now? whats the status any news no .lol at law.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> Actually they don't. This is a matter to be decided by the foreign office, not courts.



Once the individual was arrested and produced before the court, the matter did become one that had to be handled through the courts. While you are correct that the FO needs to clarify the status of RD, that status now has to be clarified in front of the court, and the court has to order RD's release.


> This is a dangerous game that is being played, a resulting corollary using your argument would be for the American court trying a case wherein the present & former ISI chiefs have been named to, by your rule determine that they are liable regardless of the fact that Pakistan claims immunity for them. There will be no joy for Pakistan, going down that street.



There is no corollary with the Mumbai attacks related lawsuit in the US. In that case the defendants are named as alleged conspirators, and neither the crime occurred in the US nor are the accused in the US.

In this case we have an individual who committed an alleged crime in Pakistan, admitted to the act itself at least (even if not admitting it was a crime) and whose diplomatic status is unclear given the various issues already mentioned.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> They can be. The ambassadorial tussle that our (Indian and Pakistani) embassies regularly indulge in is a case in point.
> 
> It happens all the time.


 
And ambassadors have absolute immunity, are usually using a 'real identity' and are usually kicked out by the host country in such situations. 

That still answers none of the other arguments raised against Davis's diplomatic immunity.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Once the individual was arrested and produced before the court, the matter did become one that had to be handled through the courts. While you are correct that the FO needs to clarify the status of RD, that status now has to be clarified in front of the court, and the court has to order RD's release.



And that is precisely what Pakistan is doing illegally. Pakistan is taking unilateral action ignoring all internationally accepted practices. 

This is a dangerous precedent Pakistan is setting.


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## Hyde

instead of economic aid being cut off

I see bad days for PPP coming soon

and the worst time for USA on the way.

If Raymond Davis is released without any charges, you are going to taste new revolution in Pakistan as the majority in Pakistan take things very seriously... and all will be going against USA


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> And that is precisely what Pakistan is doing illegally. Pakistan is taking unilateral action ignoring all internationally accepted practices.
> 
> This is a dangerous precedent Pakistan is setting.


 
And what would happen if a diplomat committed a double homicide in the US, had no passport showing a diplomatic visa on him at the time of arrest, and was taken into custody?

Would the police simply release him on his say so or that of the Pakistan Embassy's? Or would they, given the lack of documentation establishing diplomatic immunity, keep him in custody until diplomatic immunity was established.

Keep in mind that Pakistan, neither the GoP nor the Courts, are refusing to honor the Vienna Conventions if Davis's diplomatic immunity is established.

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## ksgokul

Mani2020 said:


> Thirdly US is of no more interest now for the people of Pakistan as we are loosing much then gaining (its only the government who is the slave of yanks ,not the people of Pakistan) ,everyone talks about aid but we have lost more than *40 billion dollars* on WOT as of 2010 as compared to the few bucks yanks give us in aid and that too with restrictions .


 
Do you have any source for that? I have heard Pakistan's defence budget is between 5-6Billion dollars? How can they spend more than that? Or 5-6Billion dollars is only meant for capital expenditure??

Thanks.


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## Thomas

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And given that his picture and 'name' are all over the media,* his family, friends and relatives should have come forth at this point*, and we could have at least confirmed whether or not Raymond Davis was his real name.



they are probably advised not to since it would most likely inflame pakistan public opinion.

and if he is contracted to the the CIA. you can be sure he was there with full knowledge of the Pakistan Governemnt. Remember the CIA and ISI work hand in hand going after militants. Also most CIA are covered by diplomatic immunity since they base out of the embassy as technical staff. It is the same for intelligence angencies all over the world. During the cold war when the U.S. would bust KGB spy rings. The agent Handler always got off becuase he had diplomatic immunity.


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## architect_cobb

Kanna said:


> *The total debt and liabilities of Pakistan have reached a record 10 trillion rupees (US$117 billion), as the government violated almost all the limits on borrowing imposed in the Fiscal Responsibility and Debt Limitation Act.
> 
> Every Pakistani owes more than 57,000 rupees per head to foreign and domestic lenders, compared with 22,000 rupees per head when the present government took over in 2008.
> 
> The country this year has to spend almost 900 billion rupees on debt servicing alone, which is five times more than the revised federal development budget. The financing of a large fiscal deficit is forcing the government to rely on borrowing from the central bank and commercial banks, triggering inflation and squeezing the private sector.
> *
> 
> Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan


 

In a business what would you do if a company piles up so much of debt and liability? Do you add on to it or cut of the debt supplies till the company:-
1) Changes mgmt
2) cuts costs
3) becomes fiscally more responsible

The only way these three things are gonna take place in Pak is if aid stops. So if the aid is not stopped it would hurt common Pakistanis more in the long run, since this mgmt would continue to live on leverages and multiply the debts and liabilities of the country.

So best for Pakistan is that the aid stops, so that wheels of corruption stop churning, since this money being pumped in is not reaching the common person anyway but filling the purses of a few at the top.


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## ashok321

> You wanna fight, we wanna use nukes.




You forgot about Armitage´s bombing Pakistan into stone age remarks then!

And as we know, even Musharaf did not use above threat, when he was point blank asked - Are you with us are against us?


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And what would happen if a diplomat committed a double homicide in the US, had no passport showing a diplomatic visa on him at the time of arrest, and was taken into custody?
> 
> Would the police simply release him on his say so or that of the Pakistan Embassy's? Or would they, given the lack of documentation establishing diplomatic immunity, keep him in custody until diplomatic immunity was established.
> 
> Keep in mind that Pakistan, neither the GoP nor the Courts, are refusing to honor the Vienna Conventions if Davis's diplomatic immunity is established.


 
Ok let me ask you a reverse question. 

Suppose RD's diplomaic immunity is proved in a Pakistani court. 

How will then Pakistan justify arresting a person who enjoys diplomatic immunity and keeping him under arrest for weeks?


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## Safriz

^^ and i thought this thread is about finances and foreign debts...

welcome to trollfest


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## ares

VCheng said:


> Aid or no aid, the Pakistani economy is in for a rough time in the next two years for sure, no matter what the resolution of this incident.


 
I am quite certain if US cuts aid to Pakistan..Pakistan will go bankrupt with in a year...Coz its not just $3 Billion($1.5 Billion CSF +$1.5 Billion KLB) direct US aid..in addition to flood aid we are talking about.

WB , IMF will also finish their budgetary support as US own largest number votes and thereby a virtual veto in these financial institutions.

Plus most of Pakistani think if US- Pakistan strategic partnership ends..suddenly WOT for Pakistan will be over.

What will Pakistani army do, make peace treaties with TTP..like one they did in 2008 and hand over part of the country..where Taliban can practice their own laws?


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## Safriz

^^ Pakistan wont suffer..well the public wont..not sure about the politicians as they gobble up all the so called aid with and nothing trickles down to public..In effect the stoppage will be good for Pakistan,the politicians wont be as rich as they are now and wont be able to buy votes

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

I second what safriz is saying... Good riddance of this ihsaan on us by America... they have caused us so much problem that their aid is peanuts in comparison...

The only people who suffer here are the scumbag politicians in power... perhaps a few Generals... no one else...

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## architect_cobb

ares said:


> I am quite certain if US cuts aid to Pakistan..Pakistan will go bankrupt with in a year...Coz its not just $3 Billion($1.5 Billion CSF +$1.5 Billion KLB) direct US aid..in addition to flood aid we are talking about.
> 
> WB , IMF will also finish their budgetary support as US own largest number votes and thereby a virtual veto in these financial institutions.
> 
> Plus most of Pakistani think if US- Pakistan strategic partnership ends..suddenly WOT for Pakistan will be over.
> 
> What will Pakistani army do, make peace treaties with TTP..like one they did in 2008 and hand over part of the country..where Taliban can practice their own laws?


 


In certain situations a lot of companies prefer to go bankrupt rather than continuing down the spiral. And then there are other reasons as mentioned in my previous post that such a ratio of leverages cannot be sustained for long. Specially when this aid is not reaching the masses anyway but filling the coffers of a few.


As far as taliban are concerned, probably you realize that fighting them pak army is not only fighting a battle for Pakistan but the entire world, so if everybody is so ready for the cosequences I am sure Pak Army would do the same. After all they are not the only ones with some beef in this war.


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## JonAsad

Bang Galore said:


> Actually they don't. This is a matter to be decided by the foreign office, not courts. This is a dangerous game that is being played, a resulting corollary using your argument would be for the American court trying a case wherein the present & former ISI chiefs have been named to, by your rule determine that they are liable regardless of the fact that Pakistan claims immunity for them. There will be no joy for Pakistan, going down that street.


 
No- if its just the matter of verifying a diplomats diplomatic immunity, then yeah i agree foreign office can verify it, as per the norms.

The matter is different here, thus i used the word complicated-- Raymond Davis has killed 2 people by shooting them in their backs citing self defense claiming immunity from Murder.

Thus courts will establish weather he got immunity or not.

The case against ISI chiefs is irrelevant here, just like the case against CIA station chief that fled from Pakistan will be irrelevant here.


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## TOPGUN

The americans are going crazy and giving such threats to Pakistan cuz .. this bastard is so guilty its not even funny... threats given in such a manner to such a degree is to get the job done meaning bring this bastard back home. Let them cut of the aid then they will see who will fight there war next door all to save there own killer shame on the US for doing so this is very low i hope this bastard hangs or goes to jail for life


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## ashok321

safriz said:


> ^^ and i thought this thread is about finances and foreign debts...
> 
> welcome to trollfest



Its about threats between US and Pakistan.


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## Imran Khan

bhikariyoon ki koi life nhi hoti yaar shamefully

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## Safriz

TOPGUN said:


> The americans are going crazy and giving such threats to Pakistan cuz .. this bastard is so guilty its not even funny... threats given in such a manner to such a degree is to get the job done meaning bring this bastard back home. Let them cut of the aid then they will see who will fight there war next door all to save there own killer shame on the US for doing so this is very low i hope this bastard hangs or goes to jail for life


 
ministry of foreign affairs should protest and issue statement


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## deckingraj

Last Hope said:


> This was said by US Embassy, which means, it is confirmed he said that.
> He also says that he feared his life, whereas they didnt even point at him!
> You guys are labelling them as terrorists where they didnt even attempt to rob him?



Sorry but you don't wait for someone to first point their pistol at you or rob you before your self-defence mechanism kick in...




> Just open Dawn news and see it live. He was having a 9mm, 5 magzines, a pair of binoculars, 5 ATM cards, hightec wireless and pictures of stratigic places in Pakistan.
> 
> He was a spy, so stop saving him


 
My feeling about this incident is that he should be tried as per Pakistan law(which he is being)...The only question is that in case he has diplomatic immunity than you will have to let him go....Since his diplomatic status is under question i am with Pak on the way they are handling this.


*@ My personal opinion on this matter...*
I believe Pakistan need to work on this issue with lot of care....You don't want a situation where any Tom, Dick or Harry can make fun of Law and System in your country but you also don't want to be in bad books of the sole superpwer of this world....atleast not in a situation where Pakistan is right now....No matter how satisfying it sounds but nukes are not answer to anything(the way few members are talking about it)....

All people who are advicing that let US cut aids, we don't need it - we survived and we can survive etc etc...need an economy 1-0-1 session...

This is a fact that pakistan economy is in bad shape and it's not the debt that i am talking about...Even US has debt...Debt is not an indicator of an economy in bad shape..The indicator is revenue....If you are in a situation where you have to take more debt just to pay installments of previous debt that you are in serious trouble....Now when you are in such a situation you need more loans....why?? - These loans are required to fix the real issue i.e. Revenue.... You want fundings to start projects which will help you in generating revenue and will eventually fix the economy. You also try to cut down the expenditures to save more money which again helps the cause....Now let's look at Pakistan

- Budget deficit is way off the targets. This is a clear indicator that things are not working...In short it will take even more time for economy to bounce back
- Recent moves to reduce deficit were taken back to weak political stability in pakistan(coalition partners threatened to bring govt down)
- All this will make more loans(which Pak needs) even more dear. In short Pak will have to pay more in interest due to high risk adjustments....

Now with all that even you take US out of equation there is going to be a big question mark over Pakistan's ability to return the payments back...which simply means loans with even more insane risk adjustments....also let's not forget that major chunk of WB is owned by US...so they can simply block these much needed loans....


The only thing that can work for Pakistan is the expatriates, Arab World and all-weather friend China...Its a gamble because if it did not work then consequences are grave....So saying that pakistan don't need US aid is more of an ego satisfaction...Having said that saying there is no way pak can survive without US is taking the argument too far....but always remember there is a military angle to bad economy....Last time you were under sanctions Parity b/w IAF and PAF grew big time....Now PAF has bounced back a little...Another sanctions Pak might end up at point of no return which cannot be allowed....So all this needs to be considered with grave seriousness before making up the mind.....and yes as said above Nukes are not answers to everything!!!!


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## ares

safriz said:


> ^^ Pakistan wont suffer..well the public wont..not sure about the politicians as they gobble up all the so called aid with and nothing trickles down to public..In effect the stoppage will be good for Pakistan,the politicians wont be as rich as they are now and wont be able to buy votes


 
On contrary ..it will be the people will suffer..Pakistani govt has habit of spending more(budget) more than it has.

Now this extra money spent use to be covered by various aid prog, loans etc..But when eternal budgetary aid stops..Pakistani govt will have to retrieve this money from people in form higher taxes and inflated prices.
So Common man will definitely suffer..or otherwise Pakistan will have to take extreme measure and cut out all non productive expenditures like Defence, Health , Education etc..similar to what happed in Post Soviet, Russia.


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## ajtr

Law must take its own course and justice must be served.No one is above law be it Pakistani or be it american.US govt must help pakistani govt in solving this case instead of resorting pressure tactics.if Raymond Davis is innocent(as usa govt claims) then he will be free.

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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Ok let me ask you a reverse question.
> 
> Suppose RD's diplomaic immunity is proved in a Pakistani court.
> 
> How will then Pakistan justify arresting a person who enjoys diplomatic immunity and keeping him under arrest for weeks?


 
Dont you think the justification will be obvious?
He was arrested because his diplomatic immunity was not proved--
He was arrested because he was carrying an illegal firearm with hollow point bullets--
He was arrested because he was using a false identity--


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## ashok321

ajtr said:


> Law must take its own course and justice must be served.No one is above law be it Pakistani or be it american.US govt must help pakistani govt in solving this case instead of resorting pressure tactics.if Raymond Davis is innocent(as usa govt claims) then he will be free.


 

On one side you have option to hang one non Pakistani - and on the other loose american goodwill and dollars.

What will you prefere without being naive?


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## Awesome

Weird theories about how American aid money has been invested is so off the mark.

It goes into the pockets of Zardari and gang.

If the US promise to stop the aid, I wish we arrest a few more Americans, just to make that happen.

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## architect_cobb

ares said:


> On contrary ..it will be the people will suffer..Pakistani govt has habit of spending more(budget) more than it has.
> 
> Now this extra money spent use to be covered by various aid prog, loans etc..But when eternal budgetary aid stops..Pakistani govt will have to retrieve this money from people in form higher taxes and inflated prices.
> So Common man will definitely suffer..or otherwise Pakistan will have to take extreme measure and cut out all non productive expenditures like Defence, Health , Education etc..similar to what happed in Post Soviet, Russia.



nopes this doesn't reflect the current situation in Pak, since the govt now cannot risk hiking the prices much. there is mot much margin left, unless the want to risk a massive civilian unrest which is a real possibility in Pakistan even right now. So the govt would have to either cut down its expenses or leave. there arent any third options at this stage of the game anymore.

And not much is being spent on health and education anyways, less than 1% is not even spending on a certain sector where cost cuts would reap anything.


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## Imran Khan

safriz said:


> ministry of foreign affairs should protest and issue statement


 

lo a gai statement 

&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1670;&#1726;&#1608;&#1681;&#1608;&#1548; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606;&#1711;&#1608; :&#1587;&#1601;&#1575;&#1585; &#1578;&#1582;&#1575; &#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578;​
&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1570;&#1576;&#1575;&#1583;(&#1605;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740;&#1657;&#1585;&#1606;&#1711; &#1672;&#1740;&#1587;&#1705&#1608;&#1586;&#1740;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1588;&#1575;&#1729; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1608;&#1583; &#1602;&#1585;&#1740;&#1588;&#1740; &#1606;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1587;&#1601;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1582;&#1575;&#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1583;&#1601;&#1578;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1705;&#1746; &#1581;&#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578; &#1705;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1587;&#1740;&#1604;&#1575;&#1576; &#1705;&#1740; &#1578;&#1576;&#1575;&#1729; &#1705;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1605;&#1657;&#1606;&#1746; &#1705;&#1740;&#1604;&#1574;&#1746; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1587;&#1746; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583; &#1705;&#1740; &#1601;&#1585;&#1575;&#1729;&#1605;&#1740; &#1740;&#1602;&#1740;&#1606;&#1740; &#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1574;&#1740; &#1580;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746;&#1748;&#1575;&#1606;&#1729;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1740;&#1729; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578; &#1583;&#1601;&#1578;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1608;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1575;&#1593;&#1604;&#1740;&#1648; &#1587;&#1591;&#1581; &#1575;&#1580;&#1604;&#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1740; &#1589;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1746; &#1729;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1580;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740;&#1722;&#1748; &#1583;&#1601;&#1578;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1605; &#1601;&#1604;&#1672; &#1585;&#1740;&#1604;&#1740;&#1601; &#1587;&#1740;&#1604; &#1606;&#1746; &#1575;&#1580;&#1604;&#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1576;&#1578;&#1575;&#1740;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729; &#1576;&#1740;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605;&#1740; &#1575;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578; &#1605;&#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1705; &#1705;&#1740; &#1580;&#1575;&#1606;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1726;&#1580;&#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1574;&#1746; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583;&#1740; &#1587;&#1575;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1608;&#1729; &#1575;&#1576; &#1578;&#1705; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1608; &#1662;&#1670;&#1575;&#1587; &#1605;&#1604;&#1740;&#1606; &#1672;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583; &#1705;&#1746; &#1583;&#1593;&#1608;&#1746; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1705;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1574;&#1746; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1748; &#1608;&#1586;&#1740;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1606;&#1746; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578; &#1705;&#1740; &#1705;&#1729; &#1576;&#1740;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606; &#1605;&#1604;&#1705; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1575;&#1662;&#1606;&#1746; &#1605;&#1578;&#1575;&#1579;&#1585;&#1729; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1705;&#1740;&#1604;&#1574;&#1746; &#1605;&#1578;&#1581;&#1585;&#1705; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1580;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746;&#1748;

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## JonAsad

What happened here? how did i missed couple of pages while replying?


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## ajtr

ashok321 said:


> On one side you have option to hang one non Pakistani - and on the other loose american goodwill and dollars.
> 
> What will you prefere without being naive?


not even trillion dollars and american goodwill is worth defying the justice.Pakistan can do without usa goodwill which always bought it ruins nothing else.

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## Safriz

ares said:


> On contrary ..it will be the people will suffer..Pakistani govt has habit of spending more(budget) more than it has.
> 
> Now this extra money spent use to be covered by various aid prog, loans etc..But when eternal budgetary aid stops..Pakistani govt will have to retrieve this money from people in form higher taxes and inflated prices.
> So Common man will definitely suffer..or otherwise Pakistan will have to take extreme measure and cut out all non productive expenditures like Defence, Health , Education etc..similar to what happed in Post Soviet, Russia.


 
prices are already higher than most Pakistanis can pay..Any further increase will only mean people will stop buying and start looting.which may be good as a revolution will begin 
The thing is that you cant threaten death to a person suffering from aggressive cancer.He will only laugh at you.
same is the situation with Pakistani public,we have been facing so many problems for so long that any threat is no more a threat for us.We are now immune to any further threats and resultant problems if any.
USA and international community can do what they want,they cant add to general public's problems..Instead any such embargo may rid the country from the selfish rulers we have,and that will be the best change.

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Dont you think the justification will be obvious?
> He was arrested because his diplomatic immunity was not proved



Exactly! You can't make an arrest in that case until and unless you confirm it with your FO.

It cannot be done.


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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> lo a gai statement
> 
> &#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1670;&#1726;&#1608;&#1681;&#1608;&#1548; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606;&#1711;&#1608; :&#1587;&#1601;&#1575;&#1585; &#1578;&#1582;&#1575; &#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578;​
> &#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1570;&#1576;&#1575;&#1583;(&#1605;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740;&#1657;&#1585;&#1606;&#1711; &#1672;&#1740;&#1587;&#1705&#1608;&#1586;&#1740;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1588;&#1575;&#1729; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1608;&#1583; &#1602;&#1585;&#1740;&#1588;&#1740; &#1606;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1587;&#1601;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1582;&#1575;&#1606;&#1608;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1583;&#1601;&#1578;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1705;&#1746; &#1581;&#1705;&#1575;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578; &#1705;&#1740; &#1729;&#1746; &#1705;&#1729; &#1587;&#1740;&#1604;&#1575;&#1576; &#1705;&#1740; &#1578;&#1576;&#1575;&#1729; &#1705;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1605;&#1657;&#1606;&#1746; &#1705;&#1740;&#1604;&#1574;&#1746; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1587;&#1746; &#1586;&#1740;&#1575;&#1583;&#1729; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583; &#1705;&#1740; &#1601;&#1585;&#1575;&#1729;&#1605;&#1740; &#1740;&#1602;&#1740;&#1606;&#1740; &#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1574;&#1740; &#1580;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746;&#1748;&#1575;&#1606;&#1729;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1740;&#1729; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578; &#1583;&#1601;&#1578;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1608;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1746; &#1575;&#1593;&#1604;&#1740;&#1648; &#1587;&#1591;&#1581; &#1575;&#1580;&#1604;&#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1740; &#1589;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1746; &#1729;&#1608;&#1574;&#1746; &#1580;&#1575;&#1585;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740;&#1722;&#1748; &#1583;&#1601;&#1578;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1605; &#1601;&#1604;&#1672; &#1585;&#1740;&#1604;&#1740;&#1601; &#1587;&#1740;&#1604; &#1606;&#1746; &#1575;&#1580;&#1604;&#1575;&#1587; &#1705;&#1608; &#1576;&#1578;&#1575;&#1740;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729; &#1576;&#1740;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1602;&#1608;&#1575;&#1605;&#1740; &#1575;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578; &#1605;&#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1705; &#1705;&#1740; &#1580;&#1575;&#1606;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1726;&#1580;&#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1574;&#1746; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583;&#1740; &#1587;&#1575;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1608;&#1729; &#1575;&#1576; &#1578;&#1705; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1608; &#1662;&#1670;&#1575;&#1587; &#1605;&#1604;&#1740;&#1606; &#1672;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585; &#1575;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583; &#1705;&#1746; &#1583;&#1593;&#1608;&#1746; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1705;&#1574;&#1746; &#1711;&#1574;&#1746; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722;&#1748; &#1608;&#1586;&#1740;&#1585; &#1582;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;&#1729; &#1606;&#1746; &#1729;&#1583;&#1575;&#1740;&#1578; &#1705;&#1740; &#1705;&#1729; &#1576;&#1740;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606; &#1605;&#1604;&#1705; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608; &#1576;&#1726;&#1740; &#1575;&#1662;&#1606;&#1746; &#1605;&#1578;&#1575;&#1579;&#1585;&#1729; &#1662;&#1575;&#1705;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1576;&#1726;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1705;&#1740;&#1604;&#1574;&#1746; &#1605;&#1578;&#1581;&#1585;&#1705; &#1705;&#1740;&#1575; &#1580;&#1575;&#1574;&#1746;&#1748;


 
oh well,i forgot we are ruled by idiotic bums.


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## Areesh

Asim Aquil said:


> Weird theories about how American aid money has been invested is so off the mark.
> 
> It goes into the pockets of Zardari and gang.
> 
> If the US promise to stop the aid, I wish we arrest a few more Americans, just to make that happen.


 
Exactly. If arresting RD would be the reason to halt American aid or in fact HIV AIDS to Pakistan then be it. Arrest a few more Americans. Make any case over them like stealing a goat. What exactly is American aid. Few billion dollars+ hundreds of hell fire missioles+ dozens of suicide attacks+rants of do more+label of being the most dangerous nation in the world. Fcuk to such aid.

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## ashok321

ajtr said:


> not even trillion dollars and american goodwill is worth defying the justice.Pakistan can do without usa goodwill which always bought it ruins nothing else.


 

Its US VETO power that helps you borrow money from IMF-WB remember!

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## deckingraj

Last Hope said:


> This was said by US Embassy, which means, it is confirmed he said that.
> He also says that he feared his life, whereas they didnt even point at him!
> You guys are labelling them as terrorists where they didnt even attempt to rob him?



Sorry but you don't wait for someone to first point their pistol at you or rob you before your self-defence mechanism kick in...




> Just open Dawn news and see it live. He was having a 9mm, 5 magzines, a pair of binoculars, 5 ATM cards, hightec wireless and pictures of stratigic places in Pakistan.
> 
> He was a spy, so stop saving him


 
My feeling about this incident is that he should be tried as per Pakistan law(which he is being)...The only question is that in case he has diplomatic immunity than you will have to let him go....Since his diplomatic status is under question i am with Pak on the way they are handling this.


*@ My personal opinion on this matter...*
I believe Pakistan need to work on this issue with lot of care....You don't want a situation where any Tom, Dick or Harry can make fun of Law and System in your country but you also don't want to be in bad books of the sole superpwer of this world....atleast not in a situation where Pakistan is right now....No matter how satisfying it sounds but nukes are not answer to anything(the way few members are talking about it)....

All people who are advicing that let US cut aids, we don't need it - we survived and we can survive etc etc...need an economy 1-0-1 session...

This is a fact that pakistan economy is in bad shape and it's not the debt that i am talking about...Even US has debt...Debt is not an indicator of an economy in bad shape..The indicator is revenue....If you are in a situation where you have to take more debt just to pay installments of previous debt that you are in serious trouble....Now when you are in such a situation you need more loans....why?? - These loans are required to fix the real issue i.e. Revenue.... You want fundings to start projects which will help you in generating revenue and will eventually fix the economy. You also try to cut down the expenditures to save more money which again helps the cause....Now let's look at Pakistan

- Budget deficit is way off the targets. This is a clear indicator that things are not working...In short it will take even more time for economy to bounce back
- Recent moves to reduce deficit were taken back to weak political stability in pakistan(coalition partners threatened to bring govt down)
- All this will make more loans(which Pak needs) even more dear. In short Pak will have to pay more in interest due to high risk adjustments....

Now with all that even you take US out of equation there is going to be a big question mark over Pakistan's ability to return the payments back...which simply means loans with even more insane risk adjustments....also let's not forget that major chunk of WB is owned by US...so they can simply block these much needed loans....


The only thing that can work for Pakistan is the expatriates, Arab World and all-weather friend China...Its a gamble because if it did not work then consequences are grave....So saying that pakistan don't need US aid is more of an ego satisfaction...Having said that saying there is no way pak can survive without US is taking the argument too far....but always remember last time you were under sanctions Parity b/w IAF and PAF grew big time....Now PAF has bounced back a little...Another sanctions Pak might end up at point of no return.....and yes as said above Nukes are not answers to everything!!!!


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## Imran Khan

Glorious Resolve said:


> What happened here? how did i missed couple of pages while replying?


 
another thread merge with current dear simply


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Ok let me ask you a reverse question.
> 
> Suppose RD's diplomaic immunity is proved in a Pakistani court.
> 
> How will then Pakistan justify arresting a person who enjoys diplomatic immunity and keeping him under arrest for weeks?


 
Pakistan will justify it by pointing out the same issues I have done for the past few posts - his status was not clear.

There will obviously be an impact on future policy with respect to the status of diplomats and staff for the US embassy/consulate in Pakistan, and hopefully that will be cleared with respect to any such incident occurring again.


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## ares

architect_cobb said:


> In certain situations a lot of companies prefer to go bankrupt rather than continuing down the spiral. And then there are other reasons as mentioned in my previous post that such a ratio of leverages cannot be sustained for long. Specially when this aid is not reaching the masses anyway but filling the coffers of a few.



Sovereign Default is very different from your normal everyday bankruptcy ..Sovereign default - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a very few states have committed a sovereign default, but in many cases it has taken decades for their economies to recover from that kind of shock. 



architect_cobb said:


> As far as taliban are concerned, probably you realize that fighting them pak army is not only fighting a battle for Pakistan but the entire world, so if everybody is so ready for the cosequences I am sure Pak Army would do the same. After all they are not the only ones with some beef in this war.


 
Pakistan's fight with Taliban began as a means to appease the US but now it has become fight for Pakistan's own survival and identity.

If today US breaks off with Pakistan ...what can Pakistan do ..other than stopping its supplies??

Can Pakistan army stop its war and redeploy its troops and lets its tribal areas fall toatlly under Taliban control.

Other than that Pakistan is mostly fighting TTP ..but US's main concern Afghan Taliban still remain untouched.

Only problem for US will be ..it will have reroute its supplies through Western routes..which might be bit more expensive.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Exactly! You can't make an arrest in that case until and unless you confirm it with your FO.
> 
> It cannot be done.


 
Why cant you comprehend the difference?
This case is not of a diplomats speeding ticket, drug smuggling or beating a wife type usual cases.

This guy killed 2 men, had illegal fire arm on him, claimed immunity from 2 counts of MURDER and he was arrested because his diplomatic immunity was not established at that time, nor it has been established at this time either. How can you say his arrest is illegal, if he does not even have diplomatic immunity. How are you sure he has immunity? when the concern departments, courts haven't still established that.


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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Once the individual was arrested and produced before the court, the matter did become one that had to be handled through the courts. While you are correct that the FO needs to clarify the status of RD, that status now has to be clarified in front of the court, and the court has to order RD's release.*
> 
> 
> There is no corollary with the Mumbai attacks related lawsuit in the US. In that case the defendants are named as alleged conspirators, and neither the crime occurred in the US nor are the accused in the US.
> 
> In this case we have an individual who committed an alleged crime in Pakistan, admitted to the act itself at least (even if not admitting it was a crime) and whose diplomatic status is unclear given the various issues already mentioned.


 


Glorious Resolve said:


> No- if its just the matter of verifying a diplomats diplomatic immunity, then yeah i agree foreign office can verify it, as per the norms.
> 
> *Thus courts will establish weather he got immunity or not.*
> 
> *The case against ISI chiefs is irrelevant here, just like the case against CIA station chief that fled from Pakistan will be irrelevant here.*


 
The case on the Mumbai attacks is being brought in here solely on the question of whether claims of diplomatic immunity could be superseded by judicial decisions.

The point that ought to be made here is that the courts simply do not have jurisdiction on matters relating to diplomatic immunity. The foreign office is the sole decision maker on that. The courts come into play only if such immunity is denied by the FO. The Pakistani government is the sole arbitrator on that score. The case against RD is of no consequence if he enjoys immunity & no jurisdiction of Pakistani Courts will be recognised .

This is simply going to blow up in the present governments face when they do the inevitable. Better to have condemned the incident while regretting that RD enjoys immunity and expelling a few more Americans for the other accident instead of allowing this to build a momentum of its own.

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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> another thread merge with current dear simply


 
Oh ok, i was wondering why suddenly scores of people are posting offtopics on US aid instead of Raymond Davis. 

Thanks


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## ajtr

ashok321 said:


> Its US VETO power that helps you borrow money from IMF-WB remember!


usa is stuck in afghanistan also remember this.

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## ajtr

deckingraj said:


> Sorry but you don't wait for someone to first point their pistol at you or rob you before your self-defence mechanism kick in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My feeling about this incident is that he should be tried as per Pakistan law(which he is being)...The only question is that in case he has diplomatic immunity than you will have to let him go....Since his diplomatic status is under question i am with Pak on the way they are handling this.
> 
> 
> *@ My personal opinion on this matter...*
> I believe Pakistan need to work on this issue with lot of care....You don't want a situation where any Tom, Dick or Harry can make fun of Law and System in your country but you also don't want to be in bad books of the sole superpwer of this world....atleast not in a situation where Pakistan is right now....No matter how satisfying it sounds but nukes are not answer to anything(the way few members are talking about it)....
> 
> All people who are advicing that let US cut aids, we don't need it - we survived and we can survive etc etc...need an economy 1-0-1 session...
> 
> This is a fact that pakistan economy is in bad shape and it's not the debt that i am talking about...Even US has debt...Debt is not an indicator of an economy in bad shape..The indicator is revenue....If you are in a situation where you have to take more debt just to pay installments of previous debt that you are in serious trouble....Now when you are in such a situation you need more loans....why?? - These loans are required to fix the real issue i.e. Revenue.... You want fundings to start projects which will help you in generating revenue and will eventually fix the economy. You also try to cut down the expenditures to save more money which again helps the cause....Now let's look at Pakistan
> 
> - Budget deficit is way off the targets. This is a clear indicator that things are not working...In short it will take even more time for economy to bounce back
> - Recent moves to reduce deficit were taken back to weak political stability in pakistan(coalition partners threatened to bring govt down)
> - All this will make more loans(which Pak needs) even more dear. In short Pak will have to pay more in interest due to high risk adjustments....
> 
> Now with all that even you take US out of equation there is going to be a big question mark over Pakistan's ability to return the payments back...which simply means loans with even more insane risk adjustments....also let's not forget that major chunk of WB is owned by US...so they can simply block these much needed loans....
> 
> 
> The only thing that can work for Pakistan is the expatriates, Arab World and all-weather friend China...Its a gamble because if it did not work then consequences are grave....So saying that pakistan don't need US aid is more of an ego satisfaction...Having said that saying there is no way pak can survive without US is taking the argument too far....but always remember last time you were under sanctions Parity b/w IAF and PAF grew big time....Now PAF has bounced back a little...Another sanctions Pak might end up at point of no return.....and yes as said above Nukes are not answers to everything!!!!


There are always two sides of coins.u guys are concentrating only on one side of it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ares said:


> I am quite certain if US cuts aid to Pakistan..Pakistan will go bankrupt with in a year...Coz its not just $3 Billion($1.5 Billion CSF +$1.5 Billion KLB) direct US aid..in addition to flood aid we are talking about.


AFAIK, US flood aid is out of the KLL funds, not in addition to them.

Military funding will likely not cease unless the US wants yet another major confrontation on logistical support for ISAF forces in Afghanistan.



> WB , IMF will also finish their budgetary support as US own largest number votes and thereby a virtual veto in these financial institutions.


Even the ADB and IDB are withholding funds until the GoP manages to convince the IMF of its intention to implement the agreed upon economic reforms.

Given the slim chance of the GoP implementing tough economic reforms, budgetary support from international financial institutions is under threat in any case.


> Plus most of Pakistani think if US- Pakistan strategic partnership ends..suddenly WOT for Pakistan will be over.
> 
> What will Pakistani army do, make peace treaties with TTP..like one they did in 2008 and hand over part of the country..where Taliban can practice their own laws?


 
If the US leaves Afghanistan, then Pakistan will in fact find it easier to defeat the Taliban from an ideological standpoint, since they will have lost one of their major propaganda/brainwashing tools of 'fighting the foreign invasion of Afghanistan and the Pakistan Army that supports it'.

It may not be an ideal situation, but it can be worked with.

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## KS

ajtr said:


> usa is stuck in afghanistan also remember this.


 
They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.

It will be the Afghans and the Pakistanis who will be the worst hit by that - not US.

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## Safriz

Karthic Sri said:


> They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.



If it was that easy,they had done it long ago..their own economies are down in the dumps due to this war,but the reality is much deeper than most people can understand....Simply put..they cant pull out.

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## JonAsad

Karthic Sri said:


> They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.
> 
> It will be the Afghans and the Pakistanis who will be the worst hit by that - not US.


 
Back to the 80's then, world cannot forget what happened back then when US left Afghanistan and Pakistan in a mess.
This time nuclear armed Pakistan, no sane mind will want Pakistan to fail, and the consequences, you should know that.


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## ajtr

Karthic Sri said:


> They can anytime pack their bags in the C-5s and fly home 8000 km away --- remember that.
> 
> It will be the Afghans and the Pakistanis who will be the worst hit by that - not US.


dont forget the usa war machinery.


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## Awesome

Pakistani woman buried -  International News



> Shumaila Kanwal, 23, consumed pesticide yesterday at her parents'' home in Faisalabad district, 100 km from here.
> 
> She died in hospital late last night.
> 
> Kanwal''s husband Muhammad Faheem was one of two men shot and killed by US consulate employee Raymond Davis in Lahore on January 27.
> 
> The woman''s relatives organized a protest in Faisalabad, saying they wanted to take her body to the US consulate in Lahore.
> 
> Members of Kanwal''s family said she had been under "extreme stress" since the death of her husband.
> 
> Police in Faisalabad barred the family from taking the body to Lahore.
> 
> "The police, on the orders of Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Shabaz, did not allow us to take the body to Lahore,&#65533; Muhammad Saleem, Faheem&#65533;s brother, told reporters.
> 
> Saleem claimed the government was "treating the murderer of his brother as a VIP" and warned there would be a "law and order situation" if Davis is handed over to the US.
> 
> Kanwal had told reporters before she died that she decided to commit suicide as she believed her husband''s killer would be freed by Pakistani authorities without trial.
> 
> "I want justice, I want blood for blood. He (Davis) should not be released," she said hours before her death.
> 
> She also recorded a statement in which she said: "Even after 11 days of the killing of my husband, no breakthrough has been made. The killer is being treated as a guest at the police station. I need justice and blood in return for the blood of my husband."
> Davis, currently in police custody in Lahore, has told investigators that he acted in self defence as the two men wanted to rob him.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> The case on the Mumbai attacks is being brought in here solely on the question of whether claims of diplomatic immunity could be superseded by judicial decisions.


The US government cannot merely make a statement to the media about the status of the ISI chiefs and whether or not US courts have jurisdiction, and simply expect the court to dismiss the attempt to make the ISI chiefs respondents in the lawsuit - since the case has been brought before the courts, those facts have to be established in front of the courts.


> The point that ought to be made here is that the courts simply do not have jurisdiction on matters relating to diplomatic immunity. The foreign office is the sole decision maker on that. The courts come into play only if such immunity is denied by the FO. The Pakistani government is the sole arbitrator on that score. The case against RD is of no consequence if he enjoys immunity & no jurisdiction of Pakistani Courts will be recognised .


The courts are waiting for the Pakistani government to make its case that Davis has diplomatic immunity. As in the US lawsuit, merely making statements to the media is not going to be sufficient since Davis has been arrested and produced before the courts, and they must issue an order to release him under diplomatic immunity.


> This is simply going to blow up in the present governments face when they do the inevitable. Better to have condemned the incident while regretting that RD enjoys immunity and expelling a few more Americans for the other accident instead of allowing this to build a momentum of its own.


I agree that it will blow up in the GoP's face if/when they release Davis because of diplomatic immunity - which is why IMO they would do better by sticking to their guns and arguing that Davis does not have absolute diplomatic immunity, allowing the US government to defend its position (and Davis) in front of the courts, and allowing the courts to make a decision on his status and whether he should be tried for the homicide of the two individuals.

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## Awesome

JI blames rulers for Fahims widows suicide | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



> The Jamaat-e-Islami chief, Syed Munawar Hasan, has held the government responsible for the death of the widow of Fahim, one of the young men shot dead by an American in broad day light here last week.
> In a statement here Monday, he said that the widow had embraced death after being disappointed of justice from the rulers who were keen to defend the killer instead of their own citizen, which he said, was most condemnable.
> He demanded trial of American Raymond Davis for four murders, and announced that the JI would hold protest against the continuing injustice.
> Meanwhile, the JI deputy Secretary General, Dr Farid Ahmed Piracha, also blamed the government for the widows suicide as she feared that the authorities would hand over the murderer- leader of the terrorists- to the US.
> Addressing a Seerat conference at Kingra, near Raiwind, he said if the Muslim Ummah could forge unity on safeguarding the Holy Prophets sanctity, the propagation of Islamic teachings and for enforcement of the Nizam e Mustafa, not only Pakistan but the whole world could become land of peace, and tranquility, justice and equality .



[Ohhmmmm]Tomorrow's sun would bring about much change[/Ohhmmmm]


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> JI blames rulers for Fahims widows suicide | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online
> 
> 
> 
> [Ohhmmmm]Tomorrow's sun would bring about much change[/Ohhmmmm]



We can agree to disgree: Nothing SUBSTANTIVE will change over this situation.

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## ares

architect_cobb said:


> nopes this doesn't reflect the current situation in Pak, since the govt now cannot risk hiking the prices much. there is mot much margin left, unless the want to risk a massive civilian unrest which is a real possibility in Pakistan even right now. So the govt would have to either cut down its expenses or leave. there arent any third options at this stage of the game anymore.
> 
> And not much is being spent on health and education anyways, less than 1% is not even spending on a certain sector where cost cuts would reap anything.


 
Ok lets take option two ..and say govt makes massive budgetary cuts ..a major non productive..but a very emotional budget ie defence will have to cut (4.2% of GDP).

As we are talking about post default scenario ..there will no FDI,FII etc...leading to fall in growth rate.
Plus domestic investors will already under massive tax pressure to invest in any new projects...little private sector growth.
On the top of it developmental budgets will also have drastically reduced..bye-bye positive growth.


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## Safriz

ajtr said:


> dont forget the usa war machinery.



and an economy heavily relying on defense equipment sales.
No wars no sales,no income for USA's war machine.


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## Awesome

Just to repeat the biggest curve ball of the day that seems to have been buried in the news:

Two dead Pakistani were intelligence operatives: report, IBN Live News



> The Punjab government has sought assistance from the federal government in securing the custody of the three American men accused of killing the third Pakistan while they were rushing to help Davis."We have sought access to get custody of these accused because they are wanted by the Punjab police in connection to the Raymond Davis case," said Pervez Rashid, spokesman for the Punjab Chief Minister."The interior ministry has placed the names of the three Americans, including the driver of the US consulate in Lahore, on the Exit Control List,&#65533; an Interior Ministry official was quoted as saying by The Express Tribune.The Exit Control List empowers the government to prevent any person from leaving Pakistan.The Interior Ministry, through the Foreign Office, has written to the US consulate, asking for the three Americans to be handed over to Punjab Police, the Interior Ministry official said.He declined to name the three Americans, saying it might compromise the investigation. The US Embassy said it was not aware of these developments."We have not received any such information on the issue as yet," said Courtney Beale, acting spokesperson for the Embassy.Davis is currently in police custody in Lahore and Pakistani leaders have rejected US demands for him to be released on the ground that he enjoys diplomatic immunity. PTI RHL



The situation all depends upon the Pakistani avaam, not the government, not the Americans, not conventions nor any commandment! If you set a precedent today that we can be killed with impunity and not even take the matter to court, then we might as well forget about Pakistan we are merely cannon fodder in this war.

The issue is squat about punishing Davis, its about justice. When you throw away the court room trials, this is the mess you get. Insaaf chahiye bass.

I don't know why PTI and JI are footing on the issue... Enough rallies and press conferences have been held on Qurtaba Chowk (site of murders), this needs to be done on Shahra-e-Dastoor

Pakistan Zindabad, Paindabad. Bohot hogaya, ab agay barho.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Exactly! You can't make an arrest in that case until and unless you confirm it with your FO.
> 
> It cannot be done.


 
That makes no sense, because then any criminal could claim 'diplomatic immunity' when being arrested after a crime, and argue that he should not be arrested until the 'Foreign Office confirms/denies diplomatic immunity'.

A double homicide was committed, the suspect was in possession of an illegal firearm. The suspect did not have the proper papers establishing diplomatic immunity. I don't see how the police acted improperly in this case.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> We can agree to disgree: Nothing SUBSTANTIVE will change over this situation.


 
Which is why Shumaila killed her self, she too had this belief... She expects total bay hissy from the Pakistani people.

A person burned him self and governments have started toppling in the Middle East.

Shumaila drank pesticides, I imagine it was a painful end for her... The blame would be upon us all if we didn't do our part to at least make the matter go to court...


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## The HBS Guy

Asim Aquil said:


> The issue is squat about punishing Davis, its about justice. When you throw away the court room trials, this is the mess you get. Insaaf chahiye bass..


 
And what will happen to international conventions?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> And what will happen to international conventions?


 
Establishing whether international conventions apply in this case is part of 'getting justice' and 'the rule of law'.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That makes no sense, because then any criminal could claim 'diplomatic immunity' when being arrested after a crime, and argue that he should not be arrested until the 'Foreign Office confirms/denies diplomatic immunity'.


 
It sounds weird but that's how it works. You might not like it but its legality is not subject to your liking.

There's a whole history of diplomatic immunity being abused across nations. Even in the western world.


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## Awesome

The HBS Guy said:


> And what will happen to international conventions?


 
The court has already said they will also be the final authority in making the call on whether or not the immunity applies.

As the courts of various countries have decided on immunity before as well.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> It sounds weird but that's how it works. You might not like it but its legality is not subject to your liking.
> 
> There's a whole history of diplomatic immunity being abused across nations. Even in the western world.


You haven't established why the arrest of an individual unable to prove his diplomatic immunity, after a crime, is 'illegal' or 'in violation of the Vienna conventions'.

Law enforcement has every right to arrest an individual suspected of a crime. The individual/Embassy/Foreign Office has every right to establish his/her 'diplomatic immunity' to the police/courts after arrest and get the individual released. An arresting police officer, especially in South Asia (where education requirements and training can be minimal) is not really qualified to make a determination at the scene of a crime on whether the prime suspect should be arrested or allowed to walk free simply because he/she claims diplomatic immunity.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Which is why Shumaila killed her self, she too had this belief... She expects total bay hissy from the Pakistani people.
> 
> A person burned him self and governments have started toppling in the Middle East.
> 
> Shumaila drank pesticides, I imagine it was a painful end for her... The blame would be upon us all if we didn't do our part to at least make the matter go to court...




Tragic as her end is, it does nothing to change my views, which are rooted in pragmatism, and only reinforced by the long standing and strongly proven history of the Pakistani nation's bayhissy.

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## ares

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> AFAIK, US flood aid is out of the KLL funds, not in addition to them.



Only a portion of it was from KLB :$50 million from original 377 million committed plus extra $43 million will be diverted from KLB for reconstruction. 



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Military funding will likely not cease unless the US wants yet another major confrontation on logistical support for ISAF forces in Afghanistan.



As topic is US cutting off *all* aid to pakistan..we have to take into account strategic partnership has ended and US is no longer using Pakistani logistics.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Even the ADB and IDB are withholding funds until the GoP manages to convince the IMF of its intention to implement the agreed upon economic reforms.
> 
> Given the slim chance of the GoP implementing tough economic reforms, budgetary support from international financial institutions is under threat in any case.



ADB, IDB, WB ,IMF are all with holding funds awaiting IMF's letter of comfort and there is no way Pakistan can get this letter..if USA votes against it.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If the US leaves Afghanistan, then Pakistan will in fact find it easier to defeat the Taliban from an ideological standpoint, since they will have lost one of their major propaganda/brainwashing tools of 'fighting the foreign invasion of Afghanistan and the Pakistan Army that supports it'.
> 
> It may not be an ideal situation, but it can be worked with.


 
End of strategic partnership, may not be the end US operations in Afghanistan ..there are ways she can support her troops...they have fixed timetable and I think they will stick to it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> It sounds weird but that's how it works. You might not like it but its legality is not subject to your liking.
> 
> There's a whole history of diplomatic immunity being abused across nations. Even in the western world.


 
If you take a look at this excerpt about the Pakistani diplomat allegedly soliciting prostitutes in London, it is clear that the diplomat produced papers establishing his credentials to the police. The implication being that he would have been arrested had he not been able to establish diplomatic immunity:

_Police sources are quoted in the Sun newspaper as having said: "There was a lot of shouting and confusion. He then produced identification showing him to be the military attache for the Pakistan Embassy. He demanded immunity from prosecution and the officers were forced to let him go.''​_
Pak diplomat does a Hugh Grant in London, caught​


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> after arrest


 
That's where I disagree, AM. You're saying 'after arrest' and I'm saying 'before arrest'. 

Oh and international conventions are not framed according to the qualifications of South Asian policemen. They are the same around the world for all nations.

BTW even if the said policeman made a mistake by arresting him, some senior officer in the police should have followed the proper procedure which involves confirming diplomatic immunity with the FO before placing the individual under formal arrest. 

That's where Pakistani police and FO erred.

You are arresting first and confirming later. 

While according to international conventions, you should confirm first and arrest later.


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Tragic as her end is, it does nothing to change my views, which are rooted in pragmatism, and only reinforced by the long standing and strongly proven history of the Pakistani nation's bayhissy.


 
What is pragmatism? To let them keep killing our people and not face a judicial process?

That's not pragmatic, the Lahori term is being a _Phattu_. Obviously everyone knows what our track record is, but to not fight for a change is akin to forgo our nationhood.

There are times when you have to hold your tongue and then there are times when you fight till the very end. Darna nahi hai, agay barho. As long we keep getting united on the issue, strength will come on its own. And its not some miracle, bigger things have happened...


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## KS

safriz said:


> If it was that easy,they had done it long ago..their own economies are down in the dumps due to this war,but the reality is much deeper than most people can understand....Simply put..they cant pull out.



The US stays put in Afg primarily because of the commitment to the Afghan people and not because they are 'dependent' on the afghan war for their existence.



Glorious Resolve said:


> Back to the 80's then, world cannot forget what happened back then when US left Afghanistan and Pakistan in a mess.
> This time nuclear armed Pakistan, no sane mind will want Pakistan to fail, and the consequences, you should know that.



The US is not answerable to the world and has never been. There is no consequence to anyone except Pakistanis and to a extent Afghans and Indians as your neighbours.

You are just bluffing with your nuke arsenal and it will not be before US calls your bluff and remember they have the capability to do it.



ajtr said:


> dont forget the usa war machinery.


 
So wat ?? It is not as if the entire US survival is based on that - they are very well capable to absorb the minor prickings that the Afghan war exit could cause to their Arms industry.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> That's where I disagree, AM. You're saying 'after arrest' and I'm saying 'before arrest'.


I am in favor of 'before arrest' as well, provided proper documentation establishing diplomatic immunity is provided by the suspect, as was the case with the Pakistani diplomat in London. But Davis does not appear to have had documentation establishing diplomatic immunity on him (no diplomatic visa on his passport for example).



> Oh and international conventions are not framed according to the qualifications of South Asian policemen. They are the same around the world for all nations.
> 
> BTW even if the said policeman made a mistake by arresting him, some senior officer in the police should have followed the proper procedure which involves confirming diplomatic immunity with the FO before placing the individual under formal arrest.
> 
> That's where Pakistani police erred.



Fair enough point in the first two paragraphs above, but given that Davis did not (and IMO does not) possess documentation establishing diplomatic immunity, the Pakistani police acted correctly in arresting him.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> What is pragmatism? To let them keep killing our people and not face a judicial process?
> 
> That's not pragmatic, the Lahori term is being a _Phattu_. Obviously everyone knows what our track record is, but to not fight for a change is akin to forgo our nationhood.
> 
> There are times when you have to hold your tongue and then there are times when you fight till the very end. Darna nahi hai, agay barho. As long we keep getting united on the issue, strength will come on its own. And its not some miracle, bigger things have happened...


 
I wish your sentiments the best of luck!

For all my views, I really do care for the Pakistani nation since that will forever be my roots.

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## DV RULES

Asim Aquil said:


> What is pragmatism? To let them keep killing our people and not face a judicial process?
> 
> That's not pragmatic, the Lahori term is being a _Phattu_. Obviously everyone knows what our track record is, but to not fight for a change is akin to forgo our nationhood.
> 
> There are times when you have to hold your tongue and then there are times when you fight till the very end. Darna nahi hai, agay barho. As long we keep getting united on the issue, strength will come on its own. And its not some miracle, bigger things have happened...


 


you are right but question here about GOP, will they fight? Our people ever united but no confirmation from VVVIPs!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ares said:


> Only a portion of it was from KLB :$50 million from original 377 million committed plus extra $43 million will be diverted from KLB for reconstruction.


$500 million already disbursed non-KLL funds. Additional $500 million support from KLL funds:

U.S. Announces Accelerated Disbursement of Kerry-Lugar-Berman Funds at Pakistan Development Forum



> As topic is US cutting off *all* aid to pakistan..we have to take into account strategic partnership has ended and US is no longer using Pakistani logistics.


Great. We can all get on with our lives without the others meddling.



> ADB, IDB, WB ,IMF are all with holding funds awaiting IMF's letter of comfort and there is no way Pakistan can get this letter..if USA votes against it.


My point is that Pakistan is not likely to get a LoC in any case given the GoP's reluctance to implement tough economic reforms.


> End of strategic partnership, may not be the end US operations in Afghanistan ..there are ways she can support her troops...they have fixed timetable and I think they will stick to it.


Certainly there are ways the US can support her troops, just as there are ways Pakistan can deal with the TTP without US assistance.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> I wish your sentiments the best of luck!
> 
> For all my views, I really do care for the Pakistani nation since that will forever be my roots.


 
I understand that, and my comments were in general not directed at anyone on the forum.

The notion to not rock the boat too much is in all of us and is the general preferred mode. But clearly this situation calls for rolling up your sleeves and giving it your best shot...

Banda koshish karke haaray toh at least their conscience is clear. Things that are bigger than your or me, we can't possibly imagine to change on our own. But Freedom is or should be supreme, and this fight has become about all those things. Fighting corrupt leaders, fighting an imperial force, fighting for freedom, fighting for a judicial system.

No one will give this to us, till we don't ask for it. It is just not enough to survive, we must be worthy of it.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> I understand that, and my comments were in general not directed at anyone on the forum.
> 
> The notion to not rock the boat too much is in all of us and is the general preferred mode. But clearly this situation calls for rolling up your sleeves and giving it your best shot...
> 
> Banda koshish karke haaray toh at least their conscience is clear. Things that are bigger than your or me, we can't possibly imagine to change on our own. But Freedom is or should be supreme, and this fight has become about all those things. Fighting corrupt leaders, fighting an imperial force, fighting for freedom, fighting for a judicial system.
> 
> No one will give this to us, till we don't ask for it. It is just not enough to survive, we must be worthy of it.


 
BRAVO! I couldn't say it better myself!

You brought tears to my eyes by making me remember my time there when I used to say all these things to anyone who would listen, before I was forced to leave for a multitude of reasons.

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## JonAsad

Karthic Sri said:


> The US is not answerable to the world and has never been. There is no consequence to anyone except Pakistanis and to a extent Afghans and Indians as your neighbours.



How can you say that?
The consequences are to the US as well thats why it was in Afghanistan in the first place- Hello"-- bunch of Taliban/Al Qaida allegedly financed/supported by Osama 'Still Alive and not Caught' Bin laden flew some planes into WTC, that started all this, it would be really naive to think after Americans leave Afghanistan and Pakistan (again) in this mess, there will be peace is south asia or in US for that matter.



Karthic Sri said:


> You are just bluffing with your nuke arsenal and it will not be before US calls your bluff and remember they have the capability to do it.



No one has the capability to do it, nor we are going to let that happen, Its just your lame rhetoric you use for your convenience and inner satisfaction.
The US out of Afghanistan, the strategy which made Obama the President, if it was to happen, then it would have happened already.

The way i see it you are the ones thats going to loose both ways, either If US leave Afghanistan or stays there and continue its WoT along with Pakistan.


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## ashok321

> Only problem for US will be ..it will have reroute its supplies through Western routes..which might be bit more expensive.



It takes just 4 cents to print a 100 USD bill!

So a country like US would not care for these things.


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> It takes just 4 cents to print a 100 USD bill!
> 
> So a country like US would not care for these things.


 
Its not like you continue using 4 cents to print 100 USD bills at will ..
Economies doesn't run like that.


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Its not like you continue using 4 cents to print 100 USD bills at will ..
> Economies doesn't run like that.


 

Then you dont know nothing!

What is the top most export Item of US of A, if I may try to test yr knowledge, without ruffling your feathers?

US IS printing its USDs at will - any question?


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## KS

Glorious Resolve said:


> How can you say that?
> The consequences are to the US as well thats why it was in Afghanistan in the first place- Hello"-- bunch of Taliban/Al Qaida allegedly financed/supported by Osama 'Still Alive and not Caught' Bin laden flew some planes into WTC, that started all this, it would be really naive to think after Americans leave Afghanistan and Pakistan in this mess, there will be peace is south asia or in US for that matter.



I can say that by common sense.

The US initially came to Afghanistan primarily with a sense of revenge (the tax payers wanted their revenge) under the garb of "War on Terror". They have achieved it, kicked the Talibani arse and can now move away (the tax payers now want this) leaving Afghanistan and Pakistan to sort this mess out for themselves.

And you are just exaggerating the threat - nothing whatsoever will happen to the US mainland. They are not Pakistan or for that matter India to be lax and allow bomb blasts happen all over the place. They have awesome network of Electronic and Humint and more importantly the god-given isolation of the land.

The primary reason US is there in Afg is to rebuild Afghanistan and make them a stable country. 



Glorious Resolve said:


> No one has the capability to do it, nor we are going to let that happen, Its just your lame rhetoric you use for your convenience and inner satisfaction.
> The US out of Afghanistan, the strategy which made Obama the President, if it was to happen, then it would have happened already.
> 
> The way i see it you are the ones thats going to loose both ways, either If US leave Afghanistan or stays there and continue its WoT along with Pakistan.


 
Did you mistake what I said as US capturing your nukes ?? NO.

I did not mean it --- I meant the threat implied by you in the previous post -Pak failing and consequently nukes falling into wrong hands. 

That is just a bluff and not long before US calls it.


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## KS

Glorious Resolve said:


> Its not like you continue using 4 cents to print 100 USD bills at will ..
> Economies doesn't run like that.


 
Correction - Economies except US dont run like that.

As long as International trade and Oil trade is done in Dollars, US can afford to do that without causing inflation to its own economy.


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## W.11

The HBS Guy said:


> It's in larger interest of Pakistan to release him. You're already down, why do you want to further mess with a superpower?
> 
> Don't be emotional because you can't afford to.


 
woow woow woow, drone attacks, nato kills pak army men, illegal fires from afghanistan, suicide attacks, IDPs pakistan is already serving as a back bone of us troops in afghanistan, if us does any thing bad all thise americans are trapped in afghanistan which means certain death to them, so they need us more than we need them

also its the american terrorist who has killed pakistanis and not vice versa.. so stop ur bullshit before it gets deleted..

its not about being in pressure, its about justice and what ever the result is, the justice is to be done, and if the guy is innocent he will be freed.. anyways
post reported


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## The HBS Guy

Aston-Martin said:


> woow woow woow, drone attacks, nato kills pak army men, illegal fires from afghanistan, suicide attacks, IDPs pakistan is already serving as a back bone of us troops in afghanistan, if us does any thing bad all thise americans are trapped in afghanistan which means certain death to them, so they need us more than we need them



seriously? You think US will not be able to airlift its troops and head back home as a worst case scenario? 



Aston-Martin said:


> post reported


 
lol ok! Good for you!


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## Devil Soul

except from headline no where in report it says that the dead were intelligence operatives


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## ajtr

Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## ashok321

ajtr said:


> Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official  The Express Tribune


 

Looks like GOP has already found the face saving formula for RD`s legit exit. And these alleged robbers became ISI operatives!


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## JonAsad

Karthic Sri said:


> I can say that by common sense.


Common sense doesn't apply here-- its world politics- battles for resources-- power, here its not so common as you think.



Karthic Sri said:


> The US initially came to Afghanistan primarily with a sense of revenge (the tax payers wanted their revenge) under the garb of "War on Terror". They have achieved it, kicked the Talibani arse and can now move away (the tax payers now want this) leaving Afghanistan and Pakistan to sort this mess out for themselves.



Its easier said than done, if thats so much simple, whats stopping US from getting out of Afghanistan, isn't thats precisely what majority of Pakistanis and Americans want? 
If it was just for revenge the revenge was taken on very first year of the War, when they defeated the Taliban, but No they had to go for Iraq-- This region is strategically too important for US to leave just because the tax payers wants it.



Karthic Sri said:


> And you are just exaggerating the threat - nothing whatsoever will happen to the US mainland. They are not Pakistan or for that matter India to be lax and allow bomb blasts happen all over the place. They have awesome network of Electronic and Humint and more importantly the god-given isolation of the land.



Exactly opposite had happened on 9/11 on 7/7 or 26/11 for that matter,
The Super Power got taste of its own medicine, The city of cameras got the taste of too much confidence, and a country of excuses got another excuse to feed on. You are over simplifying the situation and the mess it will create or had created.

The primary reason US is there in Afg is to rebuild Afghanistan and make them a stable country. 

What was the reason again?-- Just Revenge--Rebuild-- or No interest at all, i do not understand this each post of your gives different reasons--
Say none or All.




Karthic Sri said:


> Did you mistake what I said as US capturing your nukes ?? NO.
> 
> I did not mean it --- I meant the threat implied by you in the previous post -Pak failing and consequently nukes falling into wrong hands.
> 
> That is just a bluff and not long before US calls it.



We have always maintained that the Nukes are never going to fall into wrong hands-- and when i said no one wants a nuclear armed country to destabilize-- i didn't meant what you get--
Pakistan is never going to Fail, we still have more friends than enemies.


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## JonAsad

Karthic Sri said:


> Correction - Economies except US dont run like that.
> 
> As long as International trade and Oil trade is done in Dollars, US can afford to do that without causing inflation to its own economy.


 
Simple question, what caused the Inflation? The recession? What lead to Obamas trillion dollar Economic Rescue Bill?
The War on Terror or Printed Bills at Will?

simple answer-- you cannot print dollars at your will--


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## The HBS Guy

ashok321 said:


> Looks like GOP has already found the face saving formula for RD`s legit exit. And these alleged robbers became ISI operatives!


 
just wait and watch. GoP will now dance to US' tune. 

RD will come out anytime now.


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Then you dont know nothing!
> 
> What is the top most export Item of US of A, if I may try to test yr knowledge, without ruffling your feathers?
> 
> US IS printing its USDs at will - any question?


 
Oh i forgot-- one question
Post the source.


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## VCheng

The HBS Guy said:


> just wait and watch. GoP will now dance to US' tune.
> 
> RD will come out anytime now.



Nobody is dancing to anybody's tune in this incident.

The matter is being resolved with realities on the ground being handled sensitively, that is all.


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## The HBS Guy

VCheng said:


> Nobody is dancing to anybody's tune in this incident.
> 
> The matter is being resolved with realities on the ground being handled sensitively, that is all.


 
Sensitively, yes!
Sensibly, no!

GoP and Punjab Govt. have turned this into a political ping-pong. 

Punjab govt. is trying to cash in on public sentiments and, as a result, has put GoP in a fix.

Does it take so long to confirm diplomatic immunity?


----------



## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Looks like GOP has already found the face saving formula for RD`s legit exit. And these alleged robbers became ISI operatives!


 


The HBS Guy said:


> just wait and watch. GoP will now dance to US' tune.
> 
> RD will come out anytime now.


 
Am i missing some thing in your little conversation-- 

How come declaring the Dead Pakistanis ISI operatives going to save GoP face?-- Elaborate
You know what ISI is dont you?


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Am i missing some thing in your little conversation--
> 
> How come declaring the Dead Pakistanis ISI operatives going to save GoP face?-- Elaborate
> You know what ISI is dont you?


 
"ISI operatives turned rogue and tried to kill a foreigner enjoying diplomatic immunity. Perfect face saver for GoP"

Just imagine...


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## VCheng

The HBS Guy said:


> Sensitively, yes!
> Sensibly, no!
> 
> GoP and Punjab Govt. have turned this into a political ping-pong.
> 
> Punjab govt. is trying to cash in on public sentiments and, as a result, has put GoP in a fix.
> 
> Does it take so long to confirm diplomatic immunity?



The federal and provincial governments are just figureheads, and being political creatures, are doing what is their nature - putting themselves and not the country first.

The real patriots, who put country before self, with the power and the resolve and the vision, are the ones who are working sensibly and sensitively to resolve the matter.

They will succeed soon enough.

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## khurasaan1

Insha-Allah ...nobody will be able to release this guy...this will be end for everything...Allah ka Azaab iss dunyaa mein kissi koh bhi nehi chooray gah....neither USA will survive nor somebodyelse(who supports this evil power)...


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Sensitively, yes!
> Sensibly, no!
> 
> GoP and Punjab Govt. have turned this into a political ping-pong.
> 
> Punjab govt. is trying to cash in on public sentiments and, as a result, has put GoP in a fix.




Except Imran Khan-- No political party have the balls to play ping-pong in a matter related to US of A -- so there is a silent consensus-- Your man will be freed--



The HBS Guy said:


> Does it take so long to confirm diplomatic immunity?



Usually it takes hours to confirm the diplomatic immunity-- but the condition is one must have it --


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## VCheng

khurasaan1 said:


> Insha-Allah ...nobody will be able to release this guy...this will be end for everything...Allah ka Azaab iss dunyaa mein kissi koh bhi nehi chooray gah....neither USA will survive nor somebodyelse...



You prayers are noble indeed, but you are heading for a disappointment I am afraid.


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## architect_cobb

The HBS Guy said:


> "ISI operatives turned rogue and tried to kill a foreigner enjoying diplomatic immunity. Perfect face saver for GoP"
> 
> Just imagine...



probably you are not well aware of the ground facts. If these were robbers there could be a way out for RD, but if they turn out to ISI operatives or working for military then they would br portrayed as the patriotic martyrs who risked their lives chasing a rogue CIA agent and neither the military nor the general public would ever allow such an incident go unpunished.


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Usually it takes hours to confirm the diplomatic immunity-- but the condition is one must have it --


 
Then just say that he does not have it and move further but bhai mere, say something...

Why this silence?


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> "ISI operatives turned rogue and tried to kill a foreigner enjoying diplomatic immunity. Perfect face saver for GoP"
> 
> Just imagine...


 
This is not a movie-- this is real life-- these kiddish excuses-- no one going to buy that--

and further more if you were serious about this face saving opportunity-- after a wild laugh-- i will say-- GoP is in no position to go on a crash course with the Pakistani Army-- specially when the Common Pakistani will be angry after the release of Raymond Davis at the GoP--

Snap* come to reality-- you imagine too much--


----------



## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> you imagine too much--


 
Just wait and watch...

Do you think your GoP can seriously try and jail an American citizen? Even powerful countries like China/Russia would find that a very difficult proposition. 

It's nearly impossible for countries like India and Pakistan.

GoP needs pretexts to release him; just wait till they start coming.


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Then just say that he does not have it and move further but bhai mere, say something...
> 
> Why this silence?


 
I am sure Zardari has told this to american Delegation-- the result you have seen-- Immunity or not Free Raymond Davis or face the Consequences--

Bhai meray kabi aisay honay dein gay Amriki?


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Just wait and watch...
> 
> Do you think your GoP can seriously try and jail an American citizen? Even powerful countries like China/Russia would find that a very difficult proposition.
> 
> GoP needs pretexts to release him; just wait till they start coming.


 
Asking the same questions again and again, in a circle-- with out trying to READ what the guy you having conversation with is Saying-- Read my Post 1752-- what next-- back to Face saving- ISI? Full Circle-- No

The pretexts they want, lies in the Diplomatic Immunity itself-- that will be a legit reason not a sell out--


----------



## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Asking the same questions again and again, in a circle-- with out trying to READ what actually he is saying-- Read my Post 1752-- what next-- back to Face saving?
> 
> The pretexts they want, lies in the Diplomatic Immunity itself--


 
Look, GoP will have to do a balancing act as far as pretext is concerned. 

I'm sure it will be a combination of various pretexts like 'diplomatic immunity', 'The victims being ISI operatives' and what not...

This is going to be a tough walk for GoP.


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Look, GoP will have to do a balancing act as far as pretext is concerned.
> 
> I'm sure it will be a combination of various pretexts like 'diplomatic immunity', 'The victims being ISI operatives' and what not...
> 
> This is going to be a tough walk for GoP.


 
The victims being ISI operatives will be a suicide for GoP not a escape route-- Common Pakistani loves ISI-- it will create more severe public backlash against the GoP and i am sure involving ISI will make a lot of people in Pakistan Military unhappy--GoP will never want this--

Like i said as long as the reasoning is legit-- like Diplomatic Immunity-- and Millitary in the corner-- GoP will be just fine--



architect_cobb said:


> probably you are not well aware of the ground facts. If these were robbers there could be a way out for RD, but if they turn out to ISI operatives or working for military then they would br portrayed as the patriotic martyrs who risked their lives chasing a rogue CIA agent and neither the military nor the general public would ever allow such an incident go unpunished.



Read--


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> The victims being ISI operatives will be a suicide for GoP not a escape route-- Common Pakistani loves ISI-- it will create more severe public backlash against the GoP and i am sure involving ISI will make a lot of people in Pakistan Military unhappy--GoP will never want this--


 
Look, it's going to be tough for GoP. It's like choosing lesser of two devils.

That's why I believe it would have been in larger interest of Pakistan to just have let him go. 

Had punjab police not arrested Davis and let him go, it would have been much better and easier for GoP.


----------



## Areesh

The HBS Guy said:


> That's why I believe it would have been in larger interest of Pakistan to just have let him go.


 
Because of such type of "larger interests" our real interests have been completely destroyed. So it is better for us to go for some smaller interest than "larger interest". We have already received a lot of hell fire missiles because of such "larger interests". May this "mistake" be the beginning to the end of vicious cycle of destruction that has started for Pakistan because of securing "larger interests". Thanks for your advice any ways.


----------



## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Look, it's going to be tough for GoP. It's like choosing lesser of two devils.
> 
> That's why I believe it would have been in larger interest of Pakistan to just have let him go.
> 
> Had punjab police not arrested Davis and let him go, it would have been much better and easier for GoP.


 
Letting him just go, was never an option-- maybe it would have been if he had not killed two men--
I say it was blessing in Disguise he is still in our custody-- remember Egypt-- The good thing would have been-- the people of Pakistan would already have hit the streets-- Like i said before-- Letting him just go would have been a suicide-- 

The GoP has to decide-- it wants to face the music-- from the Americans or from the People-- seems like it will be the later they have chosen --Lets see


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## The HBS Guy

Areesh said:


> Because of such type of "larger interests" our real interests have been completely destroyed. So it is better for us to go for some smaller interest than "larger interest". We have already received a lot of hell fire missiles because of such "larger interests". May this "mistake" be the beginning to the end of vicious cycle of destruction that has started for Pakistan because of securing "larger interests". Thanks for your advice any ways.


 
Do you think that by punishing Mr. Davis, you'll be able to prevent diplomats from committing offenses in future?


----------



## Areesh

The HBS Guy said:


> Do you think that by punishing Mr. Davis, you'll be able to prevent diplomats from committing offenses in future?


 
We just want diplomats to behave as diplomats not as mercenaries and to stop mercenaries operating in our country... Any problem with that???


----------



## The HBS Guy

Areesh said:


> We just want diplomats to behave as diplomats not as mercenaries and to stop mercenaries operating in our country... Any problem with that???


 
Diplomats will behave in Pakistan just like they behane all over the world.

Diplomats jump traffic signals.
Diplomats beat wife.
Diplomats indulge in drug peddling. 

The list is endless. 

But you can't do anything about it. Nobody can. The most that you can do is send him back to his country. 

Diplomats are protected by diplomatic immunity and you can't do anything about it. Like it or not.


----------



## Areesh

The HBS Guy said:


> Diplomats will behave in Pakistan just like they behane all over the world.
> 
> Diplomats jump traffic signals.
> Diplomats beat wife.
> Diplomats indulge in drug peddling.
> 
> The list is endless.


 
They may used to do all these things as you claimed. But the fact is still we don't want to let him go away. And we won't let him go away that easily. Sorry we aren't as "genius" as you are.



> But you can't do anything about it. Nobody can. The most that you can do is send him back to his country.



Sorry for now and till court gives its verdict this isn't the option. 



> Diplomats are protected by diplomatic immunity and you can't do anything about it. Like it or not



Like it or not his immunity is yet to be established. So sorry for the immunity thing for now.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Diplomats will behave in Pakistan just like they behane all over the world.
> 
> Diplomats jump traffic signals.
> Diplomats beat wife.
> Diplomats indulge in drug peddling.
> 
> The list is endless.
> 
> But you can't do anything about it. Nobody can. The most that you can do is send him back to his country.
> 
> Diplomats are protected by diplomatic immunity and you can't do anything about it. Like it or not.


 
And we come back to the same questions yet again:

Does RD have 'absolute diplomatic immunity'?
Does RD have 'limited diplomatic immunity'?
Does RD have no diplomatic immunity?


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And we come back to the same questions yet again:
> 
> Does RD have 'absolute diplomatic immunity'?
> Does RD have 'limited diplomatic immunity'?
> Does RD have no diplomatic immunity?



Yes, see 1, and No.

That will soon be known.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And we come back to the same questions yet again:
> 
> Does RD have 'absolute diplomatic immunity'?
> Does RD have 'limited diplomatic immunity'?
> Does RD have no diplomatic immunity?


 
ha ha ha. Leave it yaar. I'm going to sleep now. 

Ciao.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Yes, see 1, and No.
> 
> That will soon be known.


Are you saying that with legal justification or because the two governments will compromise regardless of the facts?


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Are you saying that with legal justification or because the two governments will compromise regardless of the facts?



The two governments will establish the facts as I have said to lay the legal foundation for RD's release is what I mean, Sir.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The two governments will establish the facts as I have said to lay the legal foundation for RD's release is what I mean, Sir.


 That would be the direction the US is taking given their demand for the Pakistani FO to issue a certificate recognizing RD's diplomatic status. 

But, that would IMO be a 'compromise'/capitulation since it would involve changing RD's status after the fact.


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## greatsequence

some legal aspects

YouTube - Capital Talk 7th Feb 2011 part2


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## greatsequence

Dr Afia sidique pakistani passport. She is pakistani

YouTube - Capital Talk 7th Feb 2011 part3


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## 53fd

Kanna said:


> *I am shocked!!!!
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s debt reached US$117 billion & it&#8217;s still growing
> 
> It&#8217;s a huge amount
> 
> Can anyone tell me who is the finance minister in Pakistan, What he is doing regarding this huge debt burden?
> *


 
You know how much the debt of the US is?

$12 trillion. Now sod off.

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## mikkix

The HBS Guy said:


> Diplomats will behave in Pakistan just like they behane all over the world.
> 
> Diplomats jump traffic signals.
> Diplomats beat wife.
> Diplomats indulge in drug peddling.
> 
> The list is endless.
> 
> But you can't do anything about it. Nobody can. The most that you can do is send him back to his country.
> 
> Diplomats are protected by diplomatic immunity and you can't do anything about it. Like it or not.


 
he is not a diplomat..


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## JonAsad

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And we come back to the same questions yet again:
> 
> Does RD have 'absolute diplomatic immunity'?
> Does RD have 'limited diplomatic immunity'?
> Does RD have no diplomatic immunity?


 
Its been posted before, i think

*Foreign Office concludes Davis is not a diplomat*

By Ansar Abbasi
Sunday, February 06, 2011

*ISLAMABAD:* The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.

A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a &#8220;non-diplomatic staff&#8221; of the US embassy.

The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.

Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a &#8220;business official&#8221; visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.

The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis. 

Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country. 

To a question if a non-diplomatic staff given limited-diplomatic immunity can be treated like those diplomats who under the Geneva Convention enjoy absolute immunity, the Foreign Office source gave an unambiguous &#8220;No&#8221;. 

The source said the Foreign Office, which is preparing a reply for the Lahore High Court on the matter, is presently pondering over the technical issue of whether the limited-diplomatic immunity covers the kind of killing done by Raymond Davis, who was carrying illicit weapon, used excessive and disproportionate use of force, boarding a vehicle with fake registration number and possessing objectionable material.

The Foreign Office&#8217;s thinking is truly reflected by two former Foreign Secretaries Riaz Khokhar and Akram Zaki. Riaz Khokhar recently told The News, &#8220;No diplomat or non-diplomatic staffer claiming immunity can carry in his car telescope, binocular, maps, masks and such like things and then kill two young men at will. What is the purpose of having all these instruments and tools?&#8221; 

Diplomatic immunity, according to Khokhar, carries certain rights as well as obligations. It is mandatory for such a recipient to strictly obey the law, rules and regulations of a country of his posting, he said and added that it would be a gross stupidity of the government, if it agrees to provide immunity to Davis by manipulating and bending the law.

Khokhar said merely carrying a diplomatic passport brings no immunity whatsoever to any crime. A diplomatic passport is just a facility, he said, adding that the list of diplomats given protection is prepared by the Foreign Office and the embassy concerned, and there could be no deviation from it.

He explained that the government had issued diplomatic passports to a large number of people including family members of the prime minister, but this did not mean they could commit crimes in a foreign land and then claim immunity which cannot be available to them in any case, he said.

Akram Zaki had explained to The News that immunity available to the non-diplomatic staffers, which was called functional, was restricted to non-interference in the performance of their duties. Like for example, an MP can&#8217;t be arrested when he is going to parliament, but can be apprehended if he has committed an offence otherwise but he has no exemption from the offence that he has committed. There are two types of immunities - absolute and functional.

Certainly, according to Zaki, if such a non-diplomatic staffer murders someone, he is not performing his duty because such an act cannot be included in his functions. That is why, he was quoted by The News as saying, such accused had to be arrested and tried for the heinous crime under the law of the land.


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## ashok321

bilalhaider said:


> You know how much the debt of the US is?
> 
> $12 trillion. Now sod off.


 

You are not worried about your own debt, and came (instead) for US which has hard currency to maintain itself.

If I were you I would be worried about my own.


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## VelocuR

The choice is simple:

*Release Davis and lose the government 

or 

take it to trial and then either release or punish him.*

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## American Eagle

The international law fact remains that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity, was put upon by two armed crooks who had moments before robbed two Pakitani men also at gun point. The Pakistani men's two cell phones were recovered by Lahore Police from the two Pakitani robbers.

You might try another line of work there in China instead of this made up stuff here.


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## ashok321

> Release Davis and lose the government



He would be released and GOP would be intact....

And you would hear the stories of how GOP walked the tight rope and saved the nation from potential US animosity.


----------



## Developereo

Glorious Resolve said:


> This time nuclear armed Pakistan, no sane mind will want Pakistan to fail, and the consequences, you should know that.



Let's argue our case from a position of moral strength, which we have in this case, instead of nuclear blackmail.



Asim Aquil said:


> Shumaila drank pesticides, I imagine it was a painful end for her...


 
Rat poison causes violent spasms in the major muscles until they rip themselves off the bones. It is an excruciatingly painful way to die.


----------



## VCheng

Sohni Dharti said:


> Let's argue our case from a position of moral strength, which we have in this case, instead of nuclear blackmail.



We have lost our moral strength over decades and decades of grovelling by our rulers, and we as a people will not regain it overnight. 




Sohni Dharti said:


> Rat poison causes violent spasms in the major muscles until they rip themselves off the bones. It is an excruciatingly painful way to die.



Medicines can be used to control and even reverse these effects if administered in time. Please remember that suicide is HARAAM is Islam, no matter how noble the intent may seem to us.

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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> We have lost our moral strength over decades and decades of grovelling by our rulers, and we as a people will not regain it overnight.



My biggest anger is not at the Americans but our own police. By now they should have conducted investigations and issued clear statements of fact regarding:

- did these two guys rob anyone previously?
- did they ever threaten Davis in any way?
- were the bullets fired into or out of the car?

These are all questions unrelated to diplomatic immunity and can be answered in parallel.

If these guys were indeed crooks then it makes a fool out of everybody protesting their death. It will make it that much harder for us to complani on legitimate matters.

If they are innocent, then the anger is justified.

The delay makes it seem like they are waiting for Davis to be released so they can cook up a consistent cover story.


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## sergente rehan

There weren't only two people dead...everybody here ignore the third person which got killed by U.S. consulate veichle. It's a third murder and must be punished. We must provide justice to these families!

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## VCheng

sergente rehan said:


> There weren't only two people dead...everybody here ignore the third person which got killed by U.S. consulate veichle. It's a third murder and must be punished. We must provide justice to these families!


 
Very true, but the third death is a road accident in which the consulate vehicle was being driven by a Pakistani national. That case should be considered on its own merits independently of RD's incident.


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## VCheng

Sohni Dharti said:


> My biggest anger is not at the Americans but our own police. By now they should have conducted investigations and issued clear statements of fact regarding:
> 
> - did these two guys rob anyone previously?
> - did they ever threaten Davis in any way?
> - were the bullets fired into or out of the car?
> 
> These are all questions unrelated to diplomatic immunity and can be answered in parallel.
> 
> If these guys were indeed crooks then it makes a fool out of everybody protesting their death. It will make it that much harder for us to complani on legitimate matters.
> 
> If they are innocent, then the anger is justified.
> 
> The delay makes it seem like they are waiting for Davis to be released so they can cook up a consistent cover story.



There is plenty of blame to go around, including the police, but please do not ignore the other major contributing factors within Pakistan.


----------



## Awesome

The HBS Guy said:


> Look your point has two fallacies.
> 
> 2. Mr. Davis' case, solely on self-defence grounds, is pretty solid.


 
There are multitudes of witnesses stating he went after them and then unloaded several bullets into them. The Autopsy report confirms that.

Even so, that will be a good win-win for all. We don't the blood of an American, we want to set a precedence where by the next Raymond Davis will know what all is in store for them by Killing Pakistanis...

Anyway, the federal government may betray the nation, but otherwise the mood in Pakistan is to not release him no matter what happens and take it to court. Then the court can declare it was self-defence, no problem. 

In fact if Davis is pulled out, so should the entire US mission, because after you take away the courts justice system, you're left with the mob justice system.


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## American Eagle

You re partially right in that what has "driven" things thus far has been lynch mob justice idiotic statments and the ususal wild eyed false allegations of everything to include that "Someone stole my peanut butter sandwich and it had to have been the Americans who did it."

The two crooks per the Lahore Police had a history of 3-4 crimes, per the media all over Pakistan from day one.

Do folks not understand that the police have told the media they recovered the two stolen cell phones and much cash taken from the two Paksitani gentlemen there in Lahore, same day, just before the crooks had their failed stick up attempt against Mr. Davis.

The failure thus far has been the Pakistan Foreign Office slow action acknowledging that Mr. Davis has a Diplomatic Passport and a properly issued VISA from Islamabad endorsing his diplomatic passport . His dipolmatic immunity under international law has never, ever been in doubt. What has caused much confusion has been someone in the Pakistani FO writing local administrative guidance which is in conflict with and subordinate to International Law regarding diplomatic immunity. 

Like him or not the Pakistani Interior Minister early only admitted to Mr. Davis has both a Diplomatic Passport and a Pakistani VISA good until June 2012. 

The rest has been phoney, too. There have been no large demonstrations. A small group of relatives and idyl rubber neckers in Lahore protested without recognizing or being able to understand that the two crooks died in the line of their work, trying to stick up Mr. Davis which is and was done by pointing their two, one each, both recovered by the police, pistols at him. Davis defended himself, and there was no other purpose involved than that, self defense with diplomatic immunity.Basta.

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## W.11

American Eagle said:


> You re partially right in that what has "driven" things thus far has been lynch mob justice idiotic statments and the ususal wild eyed false allegations of everything to include that "Someone stole my peanut butter sandwich and it had to have been the Americans who did it."
> 
> The two crooks per the Lahore Police had a history of 3-4 crimes, per the media all over Pakistan from day one.
> 
> Do folks not understand that the police have told the media they recovered the two stolen cell phones and much cash taken from the two Paksitani gentlemen there in Lahore, same day, just before the crooks had their failed stick up attempt against Mr. Davis.
> 
> The failure thus far has been the Pakistan Foreign Office slow action acknowledging that Mr. Davis has a Diplomatic Passport and a properly issued VISA from Islamabad endorsing his diplomatic passport . His dipolmatic immunity under international law has never, ever been in doubt. What has caused much confusion has been someone in the Pakistani FO writing local administrative guidance which is in conflict with and subordinate to International Law regarding diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Like him or not the Pakistani Interior Minister early only admitted to Mr. Davis has both a Diplomatic Passport and a Pakistani VISA good until June 2012.
> 
> The rest has been phoney, too. There have been no large demonstrations. A small group of relatives and idyl rubber neckers in Lahore protested without recognizing or being able to understand that the two crooks died in the line of their work, trying to stick up Mr. Davis which is and was done by pointing their two, one each, both recovered by the police, pistols at him. Davis defended himself, and there was no other purpose involved than that, self defense with diplomatic immunity.Basta.



hello AE,

please answer, what was an illegal weapon doing in the hands of a 'diplomat'??? and why did he go to the crime seen took pictures and possibly planted some kind of evidence, what kind of a diplomat is trained like that, like a cia r an intelligence guy??? and where is the second american who killed an 'innocent' yup an innocent pakistani, and why US allowed him to escape, now dont say the third guy was also robber or criminal, or say all pakistanis are criminals, shoot all these baste*ds!!! drone them, or nuke them for good, evil pakistanis??


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## VCheng

AE retracted his post before I could reply.

Please take a look here at the US debt and how it is increasing:

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Lahore shooting: Three more Americans barred from fleeing Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: The government has barred three more Americans from travelling outside Pakistan on allegations that they were in the vehicle that crushed a man to death in Lahore immediately after Raymond Davis, a detained US citizen, was involved in a shootout that killed two other men.
The Punjab government has asked the federal governments assistance in securing the custody of the three American men who are accused of trampling a motorcyclist to death while they drove to try and rescue Raymond Davis, who is accused of killing two men in Lahore.
The interior ministry has placed the name of the three Americans, including the driver of the US consulate in Lahore, on the exit control list, said one federal interior ministry official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. Putting a name on the exit control list (ECL) legally empowers the government to prevent that person from leaving the country. Raymond Davis is currently in the custody of the Punjab police in Lahore and awaiting trial for murder.
We have sought access to get custody of these accused because they are wanted by the Punjab police in connection to the Raymond Davis case, said Special Assistant to Chief Minister Punjab Senator Pervez Rashid. He added that the preliminary investigation report has been sent to the federal government.
The federal interior ministry, through the Foreign Office, has also written to the US consulate asking for the three accused Americans to be handed over to the Punjab police, said the interior ministry official. He declined to name the three individuals, however, saying that it might compromise the investigation.
Meanwhile, the US embassy in Pakistan said that they were not aware of these developments.
We have not received any such information on the issue as yet, said Courtney Beale, acting spokesperson of the US embassy in Islamabad.
Both the United States and Pakistan governments are handling the situation with some caution, given the popular reaction against Raymond Davis. While the US government claims that Davis has diplomatic immunity, the court in Lahore has yet to adjudicate on the matter.
Published in The Express Tribune, February 7th, 2011.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

VCheng said:


> U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time


 
#$%$^ ^&$ sideways.................


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## American Eagle

This is repetitious of postings on all these points over the past several days. There you will find my answers, as well as those of others, to these points.

But, to be a "nice guy" I will say that your focus is wrong. The single overriding issue is Diplomatic Immunity. The second issue is Mr. Davis was "stuck up" by two known crooks who deserved and deserve no idealizing.

GPS is used worldwide to get around any city in any country.

Having a cell phone is routine and normal, except in the case of the two crooks whose 3rd and 4th cell phones were those of the two Paksitani gentlemenwhich were stolen from them that same afternoon, just before the stick up attempt on Mr. Davis. Read your own Pakistani media for these and many other points to be answered by them.

A traffic accidential death has nothing to do with Mr. Davis having diplomatic immunity.

One of the gravest travesties of all this made up clap trap was the subject line for days on end on PDF wrongly describing him as the one who killed _three_ Pakistanis. He shot two in self defense, both armed and came at him first. Period. End of courteousy answer.

It is time for dinner here. Good day.

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## pakdefender

*Leadership under pressure on Davis*

ISLAMABAD: The political leadership, by some accounts, is inclined to end the diplomatic stalemate on the issue of Raymond Davis, accused of killing two people in Lahore last month, but it has come under intense pressure from other state institutions, which are not ready to offer immunity for the accused.

_The situation has been complicated by the suicide of Shumaila Kanwal, the widow of Faheem Ahmed, one of the men *murdered* by Davis._ [ where is the sympathy for this poor woman , these turds make a lot of hue and cry about the state of women in Pakistan and here they made a Pakistani woman a widow and then became hell bent on denying her justice to the point that she comitted sucide .. what a bunch of blood thirsty criminals these people truly are! ] This will not, according to analysts, make it easy for the Gilani administration to take a decision on the matter.

Its caught in a catch 20: *granting immunity would inflame public sentiments*, while denying it would hurt ties with the US that has already limited its contacts with the Pakistan government pending resolution of the issue.

*Washington is ratcheting up pressure by the day*. A number of scheduled visits to Pakistan by American officials and Congressmen have been put off. One recent cancellation was that of US Deputy Secretary for Treasury Neal Wolin. Unavoidable circumstances have led to the postponement of the visit, but diplomatic sources insist it is linked to the row over Davis immunity.

Oddly enough, *senior Foreign Office officials, in their private discussions, hint that they have largely decided to go by the book and not to succumb to any pressure  either from the US or the political leadership.* [ Zindabad Foreign Office! , this is how our National institutions will become strong , in the face of challenges they must make the institution more strong , our Judiciary must also stand up to this challenge ] 

Well merely state the facts before the courts and will not fudge or fabricate anything, a senior FO official, who is regularly briefed on the issue, told Dawn on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity involved.

Another official disclosed that FO mandarins were aware that political leadership was not particularly happy with the position taken by the diplomatic service, but emphasised that it was vital for institutional integrity. 

Although this appears unusual for an office that is headed by a cabinet member who is part of the government, observers are of the opinion that the FO is taking such an inflexible stand because the establishment holds the same view.

And this awareness is allowing the FO to take a stand that appears to be in defiance of the political leadership, isolating the latter.
It is against this backdrop of institutional disunity that a government team of experts taken from FOs legal division and federal law and justice division has been asked to submit the legal position on Davis status by February 17, which would define the direction of the case.

And hence, while political expediencies could ultimately compel the team to agree to immunity for Davis, at the moment the FO is putting on a brave face. *A senior official, who has been following the proceedings of the committee, disclosed that at best limited immunity would be given to the accused  which of course would not cover grave crimes.*FOs protocol manual 2010 edition accords non-diplomatic status to the administrative and technical staff of foreign missions. This designation as non-diplomatic staff, according to FO officials, qualifies personnel working in this cadre only for limited immunity in respect of acts performed during the course of duties.
Deciding whether or not Davis action of fatally shooting two men occurred during the course of his duties could be quite tricky.
Besides, the latest information revealed by the media, which showed Davis could have remained affiliated to the Peshawar Consulate could make the matter more complex as far as which Vienna Convention would be applicable in his case.
*In a related development, Islamabad Police have started searching the vehicles of diplomats for weapons. * [ Good ]Sources believe the search could have been targeted at the Americans, which could cause more embarrassment to the government.
Meanwhile, US Ambassador Cameron Munter called on President Zardari on Monday afternoon to reiterate his governments demand for grant of full immunity to Davis.

A source at presidency said that Mr Munter, who had returned in the morning from Washington, carried an important message asking Pakistan to abide by its international commitments under Vienna Convention.
Presidency was very careful in its press statement on the meeting. It did not give any reference to the discussion on the issue and sufficed by just saying that bilateral relations were discussed during the meeting.

Leadership under pressure on Davis DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

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## pakdefender

Like morons these Americans are harping that their murder is protected by this and that that law. Point is that laws can be misused and misuse of law raises questions about where and how it should be applied.

Just like in our country the blasphemy laws are misused, these Americans are misusing 9/11, Vienna convention and diplomatic immunity to infiltrate our country out of nothing but a blood lust for killing more and more Muslims.

This RAT, this Raymond the RAT Davis was carrying a Glock 17, knives , wire cutters, magazine clips loaded with hollow point bullets , a GPS , even a small telescope ... what for one may ask ?

What kind of diplomat is this? And a valid question would be what is his background ? I mean if he is a diplomat what's his career history? if we dont establish his identity , his background then this lays the ground for any blood thirsty bible thumping trailer trash to come to our country , kill people and claim diplomatic immunity.

NOT acceptable! this guy must be brought to justice , there is no other way


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## Pak_Sher

Polics is still looking for the vehicle that killed a third person and injured 17 other people. Running from the site of the accident after a hit and run can have a minimum of man slaughter charges. 

Now I like to see on PDF what is the excuse on that? Also fake licence plates, multiple sim cards, withdrawl of Rs. 500,000.00 from the bank and pictures of madrasaas and religious shrines is also a mystery. Now why is it that he did not obtain permission as mandated by his status? Too many hollywood movies and Steven Sighal killing the entire Russian Navy.

US wants Pakistan to abid by international committmnt why US pushes in Blackwater agents in Pakistan under diplomatic cover? Who is violating the international commitment? Enough of US double standards. 

If the families of the victims want to accept "khoon baha", the prices of shedding blood there may a way out for Davis, but if Zardari lets him go, he might get assainated by his own staff because lot of people are outraged at US diplomats and thier illegal activites in Pakistan for the last 3 years.


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## khurasaan1

VCheng said:


> You prayers are noble indeed, but you are heading for a disappointment I am afraid.


 
My disappointments reflects cuz the evil pplz(US govt. and everyone who stands with them) of the world are not coming to the right path they deserve to be thrown to hell...if the world denies justice to the weak then it should get ready for the creator of this world to force his justice upon this powerfulz.Alhamdolillah his justice is the best...
I am sure that his justice will not be good for the ones who think they own this world and everyting...


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

*ISLAMABAD: The United States has put on hold several bilateral engagements with Pakistan in the latest move to pressure Islamabad to release its citizen Raymond Davis, who is facing charges for killing two Pakistanis in Lahore last month.*
The incident has strained relations between the two countries, as the US postponed bilateral visits, including a scheduled trip by its Deputy Secretary of Treasury Neal Wolin to Pakistan. The visit of the US deputy secretary of treasury has been postponed due to unavoidable circumstances, said a Foreign Office official quoting diplomatic correspondence from Washington.
The official, requesting not to be identified, said the visit was delayed due to the standoff between the two countries on the Davis issue.
US officials are not ready to discuss anything other than the American nationals release at this stage, he added.
When approached, the US embassy spokesperson promised to get back on the development but she never did.
Sources in the Foreign Office say several other visits by US congressional delegations are also in jeopardy due to the standoff between the two countries over the Lahore shooting.
The sources say that the Obama administration has even indicated that it may delay the forthcoming trilateral meeting among Pakistan, the US and Afghanistan in Washington later this month to discuss the Afghan endgame and the way forward.
There are reports that Pakistans Ambassador in Washington Hussain Haqqani has been called to the US State Department twice last week to convey to him the possible consequences of non-obligation of international laws by Islamabad on the Davis controversy.
The sources say that the US has limited its contacts with the Pakistani mission in Washington.
On the other hand, the government is still tight-lipped on the issue. I am sorry, I dont have anything to share with you on the Lahore shooting incident, said presidential spokesperson Farhatullah Babar. He, nevertheless, tried to downplay the matter, saying the issue will be resolved.
Meanwhile, US Ambassador Cameron Munter called on President Asif Ali Zardari in Islamabad on Monday evening to convey a message from Secretary Clinton to immediately release Davis.
The message says Pakistan should respect the international laws and keep in mind that Davis has diplomatic immunity as he is a member of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, according to sources.
Though we regret the loss of lives in the tragic incident, we believe our citizen cannot be tried in Pakistan for any criminal offence, the message adds. The US has no intention of waiving off the immunity that gives cover to Davis.
Ambassador Munter is said to have refused to give an assurance to President Zardari on trying Davis in a US court.
The president told the ambassador about the public pressure on the issue, citing street protests and the suicide of Shumaila, widow of Faheem, one of the two men killed in the Lahore shooting.
The president denied any pressure from the military or involvement of the intelligence agencies in the case. But he said Davis movements and his activities and the material recovered from him provide enough room to investigate the case and question him.
A press release from the presidential spokesperson says that Pakistan-US bilateral relations were discussed in the meeting.
Ambassador Munter also had meetings at the Foreign Office where he expressed his countrys concern over the prosecution of Davis in Pakistani court. The Foreign Office spokesperson refused to comment on the case and especially on the possible action to be taken on the status to Davis.
Published in The Express Tribune, February 8th, 2011.


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## khurasaan1

It is very sad and full of disappointment that the poor widow comitted suicide .Alas her soul may rest in peace...She lost hope from the peoplez of this world...
Her suicide clearly prooves that the US justice is for themselves and not for third world poor peoplez. Showz that the US govt. is just bunch of thugz and criminalz. They hve no human values. That Raymond Davis is a poor man too cuz he was acting as a foot soldier to implement the cruelty of US thug govt on the poor pplz of the third world country. I believe that a case should be registered against that insane US govt. They hve no right to sit in UN security council. They are blood thirsty butcherz only.They should be treated as criminalz/killerz and thugz.
and Insha-Allah they will soon meet their worst fate ever they can dream of.


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## Pak_Sher

The US Treasury Secretary is not coming, OH what a loss, he must to coming to discuss the market access for Pakistani Textiles that were promised in 2002. Or may be coming to tell us that US blocked funds for the Diamer Bhasha Dam 2 months ago, even before the Davis incident.

Or it may be that US wants Pakistan to do more on WOT and spend more than it receives in aid. Or hee may be coming to decrease the reimbursement time of WOT Expenses incurred by Pakistan from 11 months to 10 months and 29 days. Geez what a loss.........


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## Lankan Ranger

*New twist in Davis saga, victims were ISI agents
*
While Washington and much of the world continues to be transfixed by the drama over democracy in Egypt, an ugly sideshow involving spooks and spying in Pakistan is consuming the Obama administration, redrawing the security contours with regards to what was once regarded as a stalwart ally. 

The Raymond Davis affair, as the episode has come to be known, has become not just curiouser, but also messier. The alleged private security contractor, who was on the rolls of the US diplomatic mission in Pakistan when he shot dead two Pakistanis in what he said was in self-defense after they attempted to rob him, is still incarcerated despite US demands that he be freed because he enjoys diplomatic immunity. 

But it turns out that even as Islamabad is publicly resisting American pressure, a section of the Pakistani establishment has revealed that the two men who were shot were in fact agents of the ISI. 

Meanwhile, Shumaila Kanwal, the wife of one of alleged robbers/spies died under mysterious circumstances in a Pakistani hospital after consuming poison, but not before she met journalists and issued a revenge call, demanding "blood for blood." 

Pakistani officials told the Express Tribune in Lahore that the Pakistani government's "tough stance" on the whole issue was also a "reaction to the attempts by certain elements in Washington to implicate...the ISI in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks," including the decision by a US court to summon top ISI officials in connections with the attacks. 

The incredible drama has greatly soured ties between US and Pakistan, with the growing feeling in Washington that its once-famed ally is now turning rogue. There is now a demand in some quarters in Washington to turn off the aid spigot vital for Pakistan's survival, even as there is pressure on the government in Islamabad to hold to account the US whose lifeline to its troops in Afghanistan runs through Pakistan.

New twist in Davis saga, victims were ISI agents - The Times of India


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## Pak_Sher

Bunch of Indian shiitty journalism. Does not make any sense.


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## ajtr

*Victims identity: Intelligence officials refute claim​*

Intelligence officials have contradicted a report published in The Express Tribune, which alleged that the two motorcyclists killed by Raymond Davis in Lahore were intelligence operatives.
The report had claimed that the death of the intelligence personnel was the reason behind the governments reluctance to free Davis and that it was in retaliation to the summoning of a top ISI official by a US court.
The official regretted that such speculative reporting, appearing on the front page of a major newspaper on such a sensitive matter, which was sub judice and detrimental to the security interests of Pakistan, was published without any confirmation from the concerned quarters.
The official vehemently denied that there was any linkage whatsoever between the US courts summon and the Lahore incident.
The intelligence agency reserves the right to initiate legal action against The Express Tribune, said the official.
Published in The Express Tribune, February 8th, 2011.


Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


This was reported before.. 
Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## ajtr

*Victims identity: Intelligence officials refute claim​*

Intelligence officials have contradicted a report published in The Express Tribune, which alleged that the two motorcyclists killed by Raymond Davis in Lahore were intelligence operatives.
The report had claimed that the death of the intelligence personnel was the reason behind the governments reluctance to free Davis and that it was in retaliation to the summoning of a top ISI official by a US court.
The official regretted that such speculative reporting, appearing on the front page of a major newspaper on such a sensitive matter, which was sub judice and detrimental to the security interests of Pakistan, was published without any confirmation from the concerned quarters.
The official vehemently denied that there was any linkage whatsoever between the US courts summon and the Lahore incident.
The intelligence agency reserves the right to initiate legal action against The Express Tribune, said the official.
Published in The Express Tribune, February 8th, 2011.


Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


This was reported before.. 
Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## Pak_Sher

ajtr said:


> *Victims identity: Intelligence officials refute claim​*
> 
> Intelligence officials have contradicted a report published in The Express Tribune, which alleged that the two motorcyclists killed by Raymond Davis in Lahore were intelligence operatives.
> The report had claimed that the death of the intelligence personnel was the reason behind the governments reluctance to free Davis and that it was in retaliation to the summoning of a top ISI official by a US court.
> The official regretted that such speculative reporting, appearing on the front page of a major newspaper on such a sensitive matter, which was sub judice and detrimental to the security interests of Pakistan, was published without any confirmation from the concerned quarters.
> The official vehemently denied that there was any linkage whatsoever between the US courts summon and the Lahore incident.
> The intelligence agency reserves the right to initiate legal action against The Express Tribune, said the official.
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 8th, 2011.
> 
> 
> Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official  The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> This was reported before..
> Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official  The Express Tribune


 
Stupid article. Believe me if these 2 men were ISI Agents, they would not have a total of one gun. Plus ISI guys are good marks men and they would not let Davis fire 11 shots with nothing in return. Does not make any sense.

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## khurasaan1

Pak_Sher said:


> The US Treasury Secretary is not coming, OH what a loss, he must to coming to discuss the market access for Pakistani Textiles that were promised in 2002. Or may be coming to tell us that US blocked funds for the Diamer Bhasha Dam 2 months ago, even before the Davis incident.
> 
> Or it may be that US wants Pakistan to do more on WOT and spend more than it receives in aid. Or hee may be coming to decrease the reimbursement time of WOT Expenses incurred by Pakistan from 11 months to 10 months and 29 days. Geez what a loss.........


 
I am very happi that no evil person is coming from US..
Let them stay away from us...Maybe they be thinking : How to kill more poor pplz here and get immunity..
ummm bloody rascalz..


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## Developereo

Express Tribune is Pakistan's equivalent of TOI.


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## Pukhtoon

Is he the Next Osama(an American agent) for Pakistan.For blackmailing Pakistan ?


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## Areesh

Sohni Dharti said:


> Express Tribune is Pakistan's equivalent of TOI.


 
Nah. Yeah this time they have some thing which looks like to be similar to the types of of TOI etc etc but they are definitely better than TOI. You were a bit harsh about Express Tribune their.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

what a stupid report; shouldnt even be dignified with a response


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## AstanoshKhan

*Diplomatic Immunity or License to Kill*

February 8, 2011
Dr. Haroon Iqbal

*Amidst the heated debate going on, on Raymond Davis case, one thing is easy to contemplate and has become part of the differential diagnosis as to who might be involved in the target killings of innocent Pakistanis in Karachi, Lahore and elsewhere. This is also easy to understand that how and why the interests of the TTP and the foreign security agencies, working undercover in Pakistan, converge. Which further infers that, who might be the inventor of the false flag outfits in Pakistan?*






_Hi tech weapons and gadgets found on the CIA sponsored American Terrorist Raymond Davis_


Let us take a close look at the contents of *Mr. Raymonds belongings which include a GPS, a satellite phone & other hi-tech communication devices, military grade knives, cutters, 100 M16 bullets, sophisticated pistols, and above all, smart cameras, and more than 10 pictures of madrassas inside Lahore (picture shows all his belongings). Should such items be found on a respectable person like a diplomat? Or are they supposed to be found on a mercenary who was involved in espionage and/or a hunting mission?*

On the other hand, the way Pakistani government and foreign office has shown an attitude of leniency in his case, highlights the convergence of the interests of the rented out Pakistani rulers and Black Water mercenaries; simply linked with the hawks sitting in Langley committed to land Pakistan in a state of complete doom.

Apart from the legal provisions and aspects, the fact that *a person like Raymond having diplomatic immunity, or granting diplomatic immunity to professional killers is a dangerous trend, simply because anybody from either the American Embassy or any other Embassy for that matter, beyond diplomatic immunity, would earn a license to kill, leaving at his/her discretion to kill anybody.* *Apart from that, there are serious discrepancies in the statement of the Foreign Office which has categorically stated that the person named Raymond Davis did not have a diplomatic Visa (29th Jan 2011) and his records are not available with the Foreign Office.* Normally, records of each and every diplomat can be easily traced with the Foreign Office. Interior Minister Rehman Malik actually failed to prove that Raymond Davis was carrying a diplomatic visa, when he stressed that he was holding a diplomatic passport. According to The news report, Mr. Raymond was issued ordinary business visit visa and he was working for the American Consulate in Lahore.

*According to the Vienna convention 1963 (article 41:1) a counselor officer has got NO immunity once he commits a serious crime like the one committed by Raymond. According to another report of The News, America itself has tried diplomats in a court of law, who had committed serious crimes.
*
In Raymonds case, question of self defense does not arise, due to the following reasons:

*The assassinated have been shot from the back as per autopsy reports.
Not a single bullet was fired from their side.
Mr. Obaid ur Rehman was crushed and killed by the accomplices of Raymond, was that done in self defense too?
In a nutshell, such an endorsement to mercenaries will provide so called diplomats with a license to kill. One wonders where those foreign funded, western beleaguered NGOs have disappeared when two human beings (supposedly Pakistanis) were killed in cold blood, in broad daylight? They were quite vocal on the killing of Governor Salman Taseer! Is the blood of an ordinary Pakistani is so cheap that American mercenaries strolling in Pakistani streets can gun down anybody under the protection of diplomatic immunity and the lame excuse of self defense?*

*Veterans Todays FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 2011 issue states, it may be mentioned that Raymond Davis is an employee of a private security company Hyperion Protective Consultants LLC based at 5100 North Lane, Orlando, Florida, 32808. This has been reported by NBC and confirmed by Huffington Post. A contractor employee has never been granted any diplomatic status but here the US is adamant to grant him one.(By Hamid Waheed).*

It is clearly stated here that US law does not permit Diplomatic status for a person who is working for a private security company. According to a senior Journalist of a renowned Pakistani TV Channel, Pakistani government has illegally issued legal visas to around 130 Americans and 86 Indians, via Dubai, to enter Pakistan without prior approval of the Pakistans premier Intelligence Agency the much dreaded ISI. If such a legal requirement cant be fulfilled under normal circumstances, it cant be something consistent with the normal diplomatic proceedings, and hence, *tens of hundreds of CIA/RAW agents have been given visas through Pakistani government to unleash terror within Pakistan; Pointing towards which, an American diplomat stated it looks awful when we see that a country like Pakistan has waged war against itself.*

The position of the Pakistani government is self-explanatory, when we see that the Interior Minister Rehman Malik has stressed that Raymond Davis was carrying a diplomatic passport, which is an appalling delude, whereby diplomatic status and visa issue has been confused with diplomatic passport. Punjab police also played a dirty role in this enigma, by registering the assassinated persons as dacoits, in their bid to weaken the case against the assailant. Punjab Government even excelled the Federal Government in pleasing Americans by forcefully detaching the Prosecutor General Mr. Rana Bakhtyiar from this case. His only fault was that he affronted the masters by condemning the barbaric act in the guise of diplomacy. *Now according to FOX NEWS, quoting Pakistani embassy in New York, Raymond will soon be released from the clutches of the Pakistani court of law.*

It is quite obvious that a weak case is being prepared against the assassin by crafting a vague investigation report coupled with a half hearted pursuance of the case on deliberations of the slavish rulers sitting in the Government. It goes without saying that how can flunkies, who came into power with American approval could possibly resist its pressure. The value of the precious Pakistani lives in the eyes of its rulers is quite understandable when hundreds of drone attacks have taken the lives of thousands of innocent Pakistani civilians. Moreover, an even pinching statement was made by *President Asif Ali Zardari who commented to the Americans that collateral damage could be a matter of concern for them but not for him. Such is the listless and apathetic mentality which is governing this country.*

*The single most convincing evidence that Raymond Davis is a serving undercover CIA operative, is that his original name is nowhere to be found in the diplomatic records. Additionally, his passport harbors a different name than the one he goes by.*

Part of Pakistans Electronic and Print media once again proved that it is sellable merchandise, when it played its role to weaken the case against Raymond. Soon after the incident a prominent Private channel highlighted that Raymond fired in self defense and that the assassinated were robbers with pistols in their hands (Here the dirty role of the police cannot be ruled out). Also, it emphasized that that those who killed were shot from front (against the reality) while the actual autopsy showed that they were shot from the back. Similarly, several analysts played their assigned role to prove that they were sold out, by arguing immunity for the assassin. This is how Pakistani media has been infiltrated by the hostile foreign agencies.

*The case of Raymond Davis is only a tip of the iceberg, and it exposes the dreadful reality that how agencies like CIA have permeated deep within every strata of the Pakistani society and unless they are fully rooted out, Pakistan will never be freed from the ghastly claws of terror campaign deployed against its integrity which is being unfolded under the code name War on Terror.*

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## AstanoshKhan

Since DIPLOMATIC STATUS DENIED BY PAKISTAN one can conclude the followings;

1. The man, held by Pakistan in the killing of two young men during a traffic altercation, is not &#8220;Raymond Allen Davis.&#8221; In fact, nobody seems to know who he is, including the US embassy in Islamabad.

2. Davis, and his four companions who have yet to be apprehended, according to police sources, entered Pakistan illegally, using assumed identities.

3. However, stories in the press in Pakistan and general belief by the &#8220;man in the street&#8221; say that the man being held is believed to be an American security contractor active in coordinating terror attacks inside Pakistan, working with Indian intelligence, the &#8220;RAW.&#8221;

4. The area of the city &#8220;Davis&#8221; and his four companions were driving to has been the repeated scene of terror attacks in this city of 7 million nestled on the Indian border, hundreds of miles from Taliban strongholds. Sources in Pakistan state that it simply isn&#8217;t credible that an American would be in the densely populated and poorest region of Lahore, especially an American with a false identity and rental car with license plates &#8220;cloned&#8221; from another vehicle 300 miles away.

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## JonAsad

AstanoshKhan said:


> Since DIPLOMATIC STATUS DENIED BY PAKISTAN one can conclude the followings;
> 
> 1. The man, held by Pakistan in the killing of two young men during a traffic altercation, is not Raymond Allen Davis. In fact, nobody seems to know who he is, including the US embassy in Islamabad.
> 
> 2. Davis, and his four companions who have yet to be apprehended, according to police sources, entered Pakistan illegally, using assumed identities.
> 
> 3. However, stories in the press in Pakistan and general belief by the man in the street say that the man being held is believed to be an American security contractor active in coordinating terror attacks inside Pakistan, working with Indian intelligence, the RAW.
> 
> 4. The area of the city Davis and his four companions were driving to has been the repeated scene of terror attacks in this city of 7 million nestled on the Indian border, hundreds of miles from Taliban strongholds. Sources in Pakistan state that it simply isnt credible that an American would be in the densely populated and poorest region of Lahore, especially an American with a false identity and rental car with license plates cloned from another vehicle 300 miles away.


 
CIA sponsored American Terrorist Raymond Davis

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## trident2010

*US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan*


WASHINGTON: The United States has suspended high-level contacts with Pakistan as ties between the two countries continue to deteriorate over the Raymond Davis affair.

The situation has worsened to such an extent that the Obama administration is reported to be putting a hold on Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari's proposed visit to Washington next month. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also declined to meet Pakistan's foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on the sidelines of a security conference in Munich. Agitated US lawmakers have indicated that defense and economic ties, including aid to Pakistan, may need to be revisited.

So what is the Raymond Davis affair? While Washington and much of the world continues to be transfixed by the drama over democracy in Egypt, an ugly sideshow involving spooks and spying in Pakistan is consuming the Obama administration, redrawing the security contours with regards to what was once regarded as a stalwart ally.

Davis, an alleged private security contractor, was on the rolls of the American diplomatic mission in Pakistan when he shot dead two Pakistanis last month in what he said was in self-defense after they attempted to rob him. He has been incarcerated pending legal proceedings despite US demands that he be freed because he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Washington has now convinced Pakistan that Davis has a diplomatic passport, and although it is stamped with a work visa, he is entitled to diplomatic immunity under international conventions. But the situation in Pakistan appears to have slipped out of government's control, with anti-U.S interests and pro-American sources each selectively leaking information to inflame public opinion, which is already anti-American.

For instance, it turns out that even as Islamabad is publicly resisting American pressure, a section of the Pakistani establishment has revealed that the two men who were shot were in fact agents of the ISI, its spy agency. Adding to the confusion, the wife of one of the alleged robbers/spies died under mysterious circumstances in a Pakistani hospital after consuming poison, but not before she met journalists and issued a revenge call, demanding "blood for blood."

Meanwhile, unnamed Pakistani officials also told the Express Tribune newspaper in Lahore that the Pakistani government's "tough stance" on the whole issue was also a "reaction to the attempts by certain elements in Washington to implicate...the ISI in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks," including the decision by an American court to summon top ISI officials in connections with the attacks.

The incredible and often acrimonious drama, being played out on the sidelines of the Egypt spectacle, has greatly soured ties between US and Pakistan, with the growing feeling in Washington that its once-famed ally is now turning rogue. There is now a demand in some quarters in Washington to turn off the aid spigot vital for Pakistan's survival, even as there is pressure on the civilian government in Islamabad to hold to account the United States, whose lifeline to its 140,000 troops in Afghanistan runs through Pakistan.

Some analysts are starting to compare the situation to the one that existed between US and Iran during the hostage crisis.

Matters have reached such a head that the US ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter called on President Asif Ali Zardari in Islamabad on Monday to follow up on Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's phone call to him last week to resolve the matter, which has now become more complicated by the latest disclosure and the suicide.

But instead of moving towards a resolution, Pakistan on Monday put three more Americans, accused of driving a vehicle that came to rescue Davis but instead killed a pedestrian in a hit-and-run incident, on an exit control list.

The atmosphere has been particularly exacerbated by the alleged suicide of Shumaila Kanwal, widow of the one of the men shot dead by Davis. Kanwal, 26, reportedly told medics and journalists that she was ending her life in protest at alleged leniency shown towards Davis. "I want blood for blood," she was quoted as saying after she arrived at the hospital. "The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion. I need justice."

Pictures in the Pakistani media showed Kanwal being tube fed and drinking water, but she was mysteriously pronounced dead a few hours later. Soon after, some Pakistani politicians have demanded that Davis and other Americans be tried for her death too. The US mission has declined to hand over the three other Americans accused in the hit-and-run case.

All this now makes it even more difficult for Pakistan's civilian government to release Davis even if it now transpires, as was reported by the Express Tribune, that the two motorcycle borne men who were killed were ISI agents. An unnamed security official told the newspaper, which is brought out in collaboration with the International Herald Tribune, that the duo belonged to the security establishment and "found the activities of the American official detrimental to our national security."



Tinkered, Tailored, Soldered, Spied: US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan - The Times of India


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## ajtr

*US postpones bilateral contacts until Davis freed​*

WASHINGTON: The United States has put all bilateral contacts with Pakistan on hold until Islamabad releases an employee of the its consulate in Lahore, arrested for shooting down two men, diplomatic sources told Dawn.

The sources said that the dispute could affect three major events planned this year: President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to Washington, the next round of US-Pakistan strategic dialogue and trilateral talks involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United States.

Last week, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi postponed a visit to Munich, Germany, to attend an international security conference after US officials informed Islamabad that their Secretary of State Hillary Clinton might not be able to meet him because of this dispute.

But the events planned for this year are of far greater importance than the conference in Munich.

Delay in Mr Zardaris visit, planned next month, would send wrong signals around the world and would also embarrass him at home, said one diplomatic source.

Similarly, delaying the strategic dialogue would have serious implications, he added.

The sources believe that while the Americans are unlikely to postpone the trilateral talks, the US decision to postpone all bilateral contacts can put Pakistan at a great disadvantage during the negotiations.

They also want that the US Congress is currently considering budget proposals for the next fiscal year and the diplomatic row could affect $1.5 billion of annual assistance for Pakistan as well.

Last week, it seemed that the Pakistani government had made up its mind to release the American, Raymond Davis, but on Sunday the wife of one of his victims committed suicide, which further complicated the matter.

Investigations by Dawn confirm that Mr Davis worked for a private security firm before he went to Pakistan but he does have a diplomatic passport.

He submitted the same passport to the Pakistan Embassy in Washington which gave him a work, but not a diplomatic visa.

The Pakistanis stress that the US Embassy was slow in demanding diplomatic immunity for Mr Davis and was quiet on this matter for 48 hours, creating doubts about his status.

Despite such doubts, Pakistan has agreed in principle to grant diplomatic immunity to Mr Davis and send him back to the US, said a senior diplomatic source in Washington.

But the government is scared of political repercussions, particularly after the suicide, the source added.

A Pakistan diplomatic source said all sort of interactions could be affected, including US assistance to Pakistan, one of the largest non-Nato recipients of American military aid.

They tell us theyll interact with us once this issue is resolved, the source said. The controversy could even effect a $7.5-billion, five-year civilian aid package or official visits or meetings between the sometimes friends, sometimes foes.


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## ajtr

Washington has to realize that all this arm twisting will not yield anything.It has to talk to Islamabad even if doesn't wish to talk.snapping all contacts will only harm Washington in longterm. And this is the precise argument Washington give to Delhi.So why not it itself follow itself follow on to advices it gives to other countries.


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## duhastmish

*this is getting ugly now. 

the question remains can Pakistan still fight for its pride and ego at such high cost of its very much existence.

at a personal level i think paksitan will bend its knees and give the raymond on a plate. and once united states gets him they will start blaming paksitan for its mindless atrocities.

public will have rage but then parties will come up with new - kashmir and anti india slogan - such as no talk or we go for war. 

they forget it all and there goes another chapter lost in the book of Abyss of nothingness. *


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## SpArK

U.S official's fate may threaten U.S., Pakistan ties: diplomat | Reuters


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## SpArK

U.S official's fate may threaten U.S., Pakistan ties: diplomat | Reuters


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## AstanoshKhan

To hell with your aid/assistance. Just leave us alone damn it.

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## Kompromat

US can't save its criminals from being prosecuted - Raymond has been caught in act and must receive justice for the sake of those he has killed.

US if wants to cut ties , can do it happily , we will see who has the most to lose in this game.

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## kugga

We 're not gonna free him no matter whatever they say... Our life is no so cheap.. if the government returns davis back to America then they should get ready for another Egypt Tunisia situation... we are not gonna forgive them this time

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## SMC

Really good news. We need US to cut all their assistance and GTFO out of Pakistan.

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## Rafael

duhastmish said:


> *this is getting ugly now.
> 
> the question remains can Pakistan still fight for its pride and ego at such high cost of its very much existence.
> 
> at a personal level i think paksitan will bend its knees and give the raymond on a plate. and once united states gets him they will start blaming paksitan for its mindless atrocities.
> 
> public will have rage but then parties will come up with new - kashmir and anti india slogan - such as no talk or we go for war.
> 
> they forget it all and there goes another chapter lost in the book of Abyss of nothingness. *


 
Its not about Pakistan's pride. Its about setting the precedence. Remember we kept quite during first few drone strikes in FATA and Waziristan and look where we stand today. If he is let go without any guarantees or charges, It will come back and haunt us a few years from now. Therefore no matter what happens, he shouldn't be allowed to leave the country untill he is proven innocent.

P.S I forgot to mention; USA can go **** and itsef and Hillary too for that matter.

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## monitor

US pressure likely to win immunity for Davis

*The cable is said to have also conveyed the strong sentiments in Washington on the issue and said that the US could go all out to get Davis released. *

Baqir Sajjad Syed 

ISLAMABAD: The government on Saturday appeared to be all set to grant `immunity` to Raymond Davis, accused of double murder in Lahore, after Washington limited its bilateral interaction with Islamabad till the resolution of the matter. 
Apart from the pressure from Washington, what may have led the government to this decision was a message from Pakistan`s Ambassador to the US, Hussain Haqqani. He urged the government to grant immunity to Davis at the earliest. His message was sent after the State Department virtually snapped all communication with the embassy in Washington.
According to a top diplomatic source, a cable from the Washington embassy clearly warned that the diplomatic stand-off with the US was likely to grow more intense with each passing day.
The cable is said to have also conveyed the strong sentiments in Washington on the issue and said that the US could go all out to get Davis released.
That Islamabad will move rapidly to defuse the situation is also substantiated by others. Associated Press in a story datelined Washington quoted two unnamed *Pakistani officials as having said: "They expect Davis to be free in days, once a Pakistani court goes over documents US officials have submitted to prove his diplomatic status."*
Over the past few days the US government steadily ramped up its pressure on Pakistan for Davis`s release. Initially diplomatic notes were given to the Foreign Office urging it to accept Davis as a diplomat and to grant him immunity under Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations.
The matter was later taken up with the government by visiting Congressional delegations. The House Armed Services Committee delegation took the toughest line in its meeting with Prime Minister Gilani on Friday, where it was reportedly communicated to Pakistani leadership that it might be difficult for the committee to approve military aid and arms supply as long as its official remained in detention.
This was interpreted by Pakistani officials as a veiled threat that defence cooperation could be in jeopardy if the row persisted.
Mr Gilani had, on that occasion, asked the delegation for uninterrupted provision of equipment and assistance for enhancing the capability of the armed forces.
As it became clearer that Davis may be close to getting immunity, more information about his identity has come to light. Dawn
Davis, who was first claimed by the US embassy as a Lahore consulate staffer and was later declared as assigned to Islamabad embassy, at the time of his arrest, according to his interrogators, carried an ID showing that he worked for the US consulate general in Peshawar, a copy of which has been obtained by .
It looks to be an interesting case of an embassy staffer concurrently working at three different stations. Dawn
Some of the other information shared with by the investigators confirmed the previously known information that he had a military background and was posted with US Regional Affairs Office, which is linked by many analysts to CIA.
A US Department of Veteran Affairs card and Department of Defence contractor card were also in possession of Davis, which only adds to the confusion over his identity. The contract documents in Davis` possession revealed that he was on an annual contract with a fee of $200,000.
The US embassy, in a list of cases of its employees pending for registration, given to the FO on Jan 25 (two days before the incident), intriguingly did not mention Davis. However, a revised list submitted a day after the incident on Jan 28 carried his name.
Officials believe that his name was missing from the Jan 25 list because at that time he was assigned to the consulate general. But, apparently afterwards he was put on the list given subsequently to ensure that he benefited from Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 instead of 1963 Convention on consular relations that has a narrower scope in terms of immunit


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## ice_man

duhastmish said:


> *this is getting ugly now.
> 
> the question remains can Pakistan still fight for its pride and ego at such high cost of its very much existence.
> 
> at a personal level i think paksitan will bend its knees and give the raymond on a plate. and once united states gets him they will start blaming paksitan for its mindless atrocities.
> 
> public will have rage but then parties will come up with new - kashmir and anti india slogan - such as no talk or we go for war.
> 
> they forget it all and there goes another chapter lost in the book of Abyss of nothingness. *


 

damn just when i thought you were talking correctly & intellectually! you had to go on and include india and nti india slogans!


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## somebozo

If US manages to free raymond, there will be vigilante justice waiting for him abroad..or some lunatic goon is gonna have a rampage in USA in revenge..Remember Aymel Kassi??
These democracy and justice trolls are biggest hypocrites of their own principles. 
Somebody should slap hillary here.


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## Agnostic_Indian

ye tho honahi dha..now pakistan will speed up it's shift towards chinese camp.america and india will come closer..but i hate american hypocrisy and biased agreements.


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## Water Car Engineer

India's going to the American side...


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## SpArK



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## ice_man

^^ i don't understand why are indians so desperate to court USA??


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## Water Car Engineer

SpArK said:


>


 











Muahahahahha

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## SpArK

ice_man said:


> ^^ i don't understand why are indians so desperate to court USA??


 
Time pass.. ...


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## ajtr

Raymond Davis case turning out to be like Warren Anderson and David Headley case.Thats another thing Warren Anderson was exchanged for Adil Shahriyar and David headley is fully protected by usa govt itself.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

SpArK said:


>


 
omg look at these talibans...................

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## Rafael

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> omg look at these talibans...................


 
They are terrorists of the worst kind, demanding sentence for the holy cow from the holy land.

BTW I noted that only PTI and JUI are protesting for the murder of those two Pakistanis, where are the other political parties?

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## Masoom_Darinda

Going by the previous record of our successive governments, I can safely conclude that come what may, Raymond Davis will be set free. US has so much to lose if Pakistan also starts to get tough but no so called leader of ours, belonging to any party, can withstand US pressure. They are all spineless and have ill gotten wealth stashed abroad and they will never jeoperdize it. In any case they were brought in power to safeguard US interests not ours. What I think is that the prosecution will submitt such a weak case that Judiciary will be bound to set him free.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

- - In the current scenario U.S needs Pakistan to help its forces in Afghanistan. . .
Without Pak's cooperation it is nearly impossible. .

Because of this U.S cannot cut contacts for long. . .


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## Rafael

American Eagle said:


> This is repetitious of postings on all these points over the past several days. There you will find my answers, as well as those of others, to these points.
> 
> But, to be a "nice guy" I will say that your focus is wrong. The single overriding issue is Diplomatic Immunity. The second issue is Mr. Davis was "stuck up" by two known crooks who deserved and deserve no idealizing.
> 
> GPS is used worldwide to get around any city in any country.
> 
> Having a cell phone is routine and normal, except in the case of the two *crooks* whose 3rd and 4th cell phones were those of the two Paksitani gentlemenwhich were stolen from them that same afternoon, just before the stick up attempt on Mr. Davis. Read your own Pakistani media for these and many other points to be answered by them.
> 
> A traffic accidential death has nothing to do with Mr. Davis having diplomatic immunity.
> 
> One of the gravest travesties of all this made up clap trap was the subject line for days on end on PDF wrongly describing him as the one who killed _three_ Pakistanis. He shot two in self defense, both armed and came at him first. Period. End of courteousy answer.
> 
> It is time for dinner here. Good day.



Time and Time again we have told you that it has still not been estabilished that whether they were crooks or innocent Pakistanis. Its the courts that have to decide, but you seem to have made up your mind that they were crooks. Anyways we could care less for what you think old man. I believe that mother f**ker American was a spy. Now does that change any thing? No! So stop posting bullshit sir.

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## JonAsad

raheel1 said:


> *Time and Time again we have told you that it has still not been estabilished that whether they were crooks or innocent Pakistanis.* Its the courts that have to decide, but you seem to have made up your mind that they were crooks. Anyways we could care less for what you think old man. I believe that mother f**ker American was a spy. Now does that change any thing? No! So stop posting bullshit sir.


 
In the mean time we can call Raymond Davis-- A terrorist who murdered two innocents.

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## tallboy123

Islamabad: The US has put bilateral engagements with Pakistan on hold till US official Raymond Davis, who has been arrested for fatally shooting two Pakistanis in Lahore, is released, Dawn reported Tuesday.

US suspends high-level dialogue with Pak: Report

Diplomatic sources told the Dawn that the dispute could impact three major events planned this year - President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to Washington, the next round of US-Pakistan strategic dialogue and trilateral talks involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the US.

Davis was arrested after he shot dead two people riding on a motorbike at a busy intersection in Lahore Jan 27. He called up the US consulate after the shooting and a team rushed to help him. The team's vehicle collided with a motorcyclist, killing him.

The US is stressing that Davis should be released as he holds a diplomatic passport.

Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi last week postponed a visit to Germany to take part in an international security conference after Washington told Islamabad that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton might not be able to meet him because of the dispute, the media report said.

A diplomatic source said that delay in Zardari's visit that has been planned to take place next month "would send wrong signals around the world and would also embarrass him at home".

Similarly "delaying the strategic dialogue would have serious implications", he added.

"The US decision to postpone all bilateral contacts can put Pakistan at a great disadvantage during the negotiations," the source was quoted as saying.

The diplomatic row could impact $1.5 billion of annual assistance for Pakistan.

"...Pakistan has agreed in principle to grant diplomatic immunity to Mr Davis and send him back to the US," a senior diplomatic source said in Washington.

"But the government (of Pakistan) is scared of political repercussions, particularly after the suicide (by one of the victim's widow Sunday)," the source added.

Islamabad has put Raymond Davis and three other Americans on a list that prohibits them from leaving the country.


US suspends high-level dialogue with Pak: Report -  International News


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## lionheart1

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> - - In the current scenario U.S needs Pakistan to help its forces in Afghanistan. . .
> Without Pak's cooperation it is nearly impossible. .
> 
> Because of this U.S cannot cut contacts for long. . .



same way pakistan cannot survive without american aid and IMF money, think about it,


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## JonAsad

SpArK said:


>



i see females with out Burqa Hijab-- Bloody Liberal terrorists--


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## JonAsad

lionheart1 said:


> same way pakistan cannot survive without american aid and IMF money, think about it,


 
Get out from your lame rhetorics-- how cant we?


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## rockstarIN

*Tinkered, Tailored, Soldered, Spied: US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan

*
WASHINGTON: The United States has suspended high-level contacts with Pakistan as ties between the two countries continue to deteriorate over the Raymond Davis affair.

The situation has worsened to such an extent that the Obama administration is reported to be putting a hold on Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari's proposed visit to Washington next month. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also declined to meet Pakistan's foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on the sidelines of a security conference in Munich. Agitated US lawmakers have indicated that defense and economic ties, including aid to Pakistan, may need to be revisited.

So what is the Raymond Davis affair? While Washington and much of the world continues to be transfixed by the drama over democracy in Egypt, an ugly sideshow involving spooks and spying in Pakistan is consuming the Obama administration, redrawing the security contours with regards to what was once regarded as a stalwart ally.

Davis, an alleged private security contractor, was on the rolls of the American diplomatic mission in Pakistan when he shot dead two Pakistanis last month in what he said was in self-defense after they attempted to rob him. He has been incarcerated pending legal proceedings despite US demands that he be freed because he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Washington has now convinced Pakistan that Davis has a diplomatic passport, and although it is stamped with a work visa, he is entitled to diplomatic immunity under international conventions. But the situation in Pakistan appears to have slipped out of government's control, with anti-U.S interests and pro-American sources each selectively leaking information to inflame public opinion, which is already anti-American.

For instance, it turns out that even as Islamabad is publicly resisting American pressure, a section of the Pakistani establishment has revealed that the two men who were shot were in fact agents of the ISI, its spy agency. Adding to the confusion, the wife of one of the alleged robbers/spies died under mysterious circumstances in a Pakistani hospital after consuming poison, but not before she met journalists and issued a revenge call, demanding "blood for blood."

Meanwhile, unnamed Pakistani officials also told the Express Tribune newspaper in Lahore that the Pakistani government's "tough stance" on the whole issue was also a "reaction to the attempts by certain elements in Washington to implicate...the ISI in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks," including the decision by an American court to summon top ISI officials in connections with the attacks.

The incredible and often acrimonious drama, being played out on the sidelines of the Egypt spectacle, has greatly soured ties between US and Pakistan, with the growing feeling in Washington that its once-famed ally is now turning rogue. There is now a demand in some quarters in Washington to turn off the aid spigot vital for Pakistan's survival, even as there is pressure on the civilian government in Islamabad to hold to account the United States, whose lifeline to its 140,000 troops in Afghanistan runs through Pakistan.

Some analysts are starting to compare the situation to the one that existed between US and Iran during the hostage crisis.

Matters have reached such a head that the US ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter called on President Asif Ali Zardari in Islamabad on Monday to follow up on Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's phone call to him last week to resolve the matter, which has now become more complicated by the latest disclosure and the suicide.

But instead of moving towards a resolution, Pakistan on Monday put three more Americans, accused of driving a vehicle that came to rescue Davis but instead killed a pedestrian in a hit-and-run incident, on an exit control list.

The atmosphere has been particularly exacerbated by the alleged suicide of Shumaila Kanwal, widow of the one of the men shot dead by Davis. Kanwal, 26, reportedly told medics and journalists that she was ending her life in protest at alleged leniency shown towards Davis. "I want blood for blood," she was quoted as saying after she arrived at the hospital. "The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion. I need justice."

Pictures in the Pakistani media showed Kanwal being tube fed and drinking water, but she was mysteriously pronounced dead a few hours later. Soon after, some Pakistani politicians have demanded that Davis and other Americans be tried for her death too. The US mission has declined to hand over the three other Americans accused in the hit-and-run case.

All this now makes it even more difficult for Pakistan's civilian government to release Davis even if it now transpires, as was reported by the Express Tribune, that the two motorcycle borne men who were killed were ISI agents. An unnamed security official told the newspaper, which is brought out in collaboration with the International Herald Tribune, that the duo belonged to the security establishment and "found the activities of the American official detrimental to our national security."

Read more: Tinkered, Tailored, Soldered, Spied: US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan - The Times of India Tinkered, Tailored, Soldered, Spied: US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan - The Times of India


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## rockstarIN

Islamabad is in a dilemma, US will get angry if they prosecute this guy. If they grant diplomatic immunity, public will go mad..

How will they handle the situation, lets wait and see..


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## nomi007

i think America need much more than us if he want a safe route for his army
America must to think about this


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## rockstarIN

ajtr said:


> Washington has to realize that all this arm twisting will not yield anything.It has to talk to Islamabad even if doesn't wish to talk.snapping all contacts will only harm Washington in longterm. And this is the precise argument Washington give to Delhi.So why not it itself follow itself follow on to advices it gives to other countries.


 
Location flag:- USA
Country flag:- India
Heart is with :- Pakistan


----------



## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Imran Khan said:


> lo a gai statement
> 
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Ya Allah. Jo Day Us Ka Bhi Bhala. Jo Na Day Us Ka Bhi... Bhala

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## JonAsad

nomi007 said:


> i think America need much more than us if he want a safe route for his army
> America must to think about this


 
This region is strategically important, America isn't going any where this time-- nor it can afford to lose us.

Agents like Raymond Davis are disposable agents -- Foreign policies of a country does not change because of One Man--


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## DV RULES

The same way Pakistan has enough to threaten US also, US understand what does it means. Just once face to face explain what they will lose. US already has beaten from Pakistani people by his image and more than 75% establishment already against him so what remain back? 

Just stand solidly over issue and they will lose.


Clinton, Hillary R
Speech at Munich Security conference 2011 (Part) 



> *So the transition to democracy will only work if it is deliberate, inclusive, and transparent*. Those who want to participate in the political system must commit to basic principles such as renouncing violence as a tool of political coercion, respecting the rights of minorities &#8211; ethnic and religious minorities, participating in a spirit of tolerance and compromise. *Those who refuse to make those commitments do not deserve a seat at the table.* We will continue to champion free and fair elections as an essential part of building and maintaining a democracy.
> 
> The transition to democracy is more likely to be peaceful and permanent when it involves both the government in power and a broad cross-section of the citizenry.
> 
> *So the United States urges the leaders of the region to work with civil society, to see it as a partner rather than a threat, and making the political, economic, and social reforms that are being called for. And just as America engages leaders in the region, we will continue to engage the people through civil society, through dialogue like the town halls that I have enjoyed doing on my travels.*
> 
> 
> *So when we make this case to our friends in the region, we do so in the fundamental belief that their countries will emerge stronger and more prosperous if their societies are more open and responsive. Democracies with vibrant and truly representative institutions resolve differences not in the streets, but in city halls and parliament buildings. That is what leads to real stability and security. That is what leads to prosperity. That is what makes countries even stronger allies.*




What beautiful word on democracy and support of a alleged terrorist killing 2 Pakistanis in Public place. This is United states of America (Leader in Human rights & democracy) Excellent BS

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## nescafe

AstanoshKhan said:


> To hell with your aid/assistance. Just leave us alone damn it.



oo come on...WE (us and you) dont have to be that cocky....  if the CSF / ESF (18 billion , 2001 - 2009) would not have been there then the country would have been imploded (defaulted monetarily). now this scenario does not exclude IMF which would have been blocked , because IMF 11 billion would not have reached us untill we already have a system intact and have some Foreigh reserves to do buissness.

now what,

PIA has almost imploded.
PSO is defaulter (todays news)
KESC has imploded
railways has imploded

we are moving towards a major catastroph and the only people responsible are PAKISTANIS. our corruption, our miss management and our lack of commitment towards national issues.

we have to be guilty rather then being cocky. the "maula jatt" attitude will drag us to deeper pitt.


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## nescafe

*i think the time is the most near now , when we have to wind up our nukes in order to trade for the financial influx.*

remember,

IMF , according to the policy cannot lend us more.
The development budgets are being used to give salaries.
Fisccal deficit is increaseing.
If one dollar become 90 ruppees, then we cant even buy fuel, and PSO is already a defaulter to international market.
So , the only way out will be a cocain sniff of a few more billion dollars, but this time, with a heavier price.


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## Luftwaffe

ISI does not operate as suggested expressed in this article. Believe me..Do you even know what is the average pay of an ISI driver? and did you see those 2 men's home? that were too poor. Leading me to believe how could they be robbers and how could they be ISI spies. Fools, the man will be released most likely, don't you remember previously 5 american born american muslims who came to Pakistan to blow DAM do you know what happened next?


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## tallboy123

pakistan should no leave him..
give him death sentence hang him...he has killed two innocent pakistanis....

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## Luftwaffe

express Paid by someone?


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## rockstarIN

This may be an idea to get this guy out from Pakistan..


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## Awesome

*Raheel, Glorious Pakistani and American Eagle... and all others

For the sake of maintaining civility on the forum please add "allegedly" before choosing criminalizing adjectives for either Davis or the victims.

Otherwise this will turn into a brawl which we have avoided thus far.*

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## Awesome

As its turning out, Raymond Davis may not even be Raymond Davis, the IT guy...


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## Rafael

Asim Aquil said:


> *Raheel, Glorious Pakistani and American Eagle... and all others
> 
> For the sake of maintaining civility on the forum please add "allegedly" before choosing criminalizing adjectives for either Davis or the victims.
> 
> Otherwise this will turn into a brawl which we have avoided thus far.*


 
Point taken asim but we were only protesting against American eagle as he is repeatedly using the term "crooks" for those two guys despite of the fact that it is yet to be estabilished by the courts.

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## farhan_9909

tallboy123 said:


> pakistan should no leave him..
> give him death sentence hang him...he has killed two innocent pakistanis....


 
including a wife of one of the victim

we dnt want anything from america bt hang this man

i will agree even on this we should return their whole +60 F-16/all other USA made weapons

bt dnt get it back to the USA.


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## RabzonKhan

*U.S.-Pakistan relations strained further with case of jailed diplomat*

By Karen DeYoung and Karin Brulliard
Washington Post Staff Writers 
Monday, February 7, 2011

*The Obama administration has suspended all high-level dialogue with Pakistan, a key U.S. partner in the Afghanistan war, over the case of an American diplomat the Pakistanis have detained on possible murder charges, U.S. and Pakistani officials said.* 

The case of Raymond Allen Davis, who has admitted he fatally shot two Pakistanis he said threatened him from a motorcycle while he was driving in Lahore on Jan. 27, has severely strained relations between the two governments and threatens to scuttle a planned summit among U.S., Afghan and Pakistani leaders scheduled for the end of this month in Washington. 

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton canceled a meeting last weekend with Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi at an international security conference in Munich to protest Allen's detention, according to officials from both countries who were not authorized to discuss the situation on the record. 

The administration has twice summoned Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani to the White House for formal complaints and demands that Pakistan recognize Davis's diplomatic immunity and release him immediately. The message was repeated in a meeting in Islamabad Monday between Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and U.S. Ambassador Cameron Munter. 

Davis, 36, holds a diplomatic passport and is a member of the "technical and administrative staff" at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad "entitled to full criminal immunity in accordance with the Vienna Convention," the State Department said Monday. 

The administration and Congress, the statement said, "have repeatedly made clear at the highest levels that this matter must be resolved by the Pakistan government or it could impact other bilateral initiatives." 

*In Pakistan, the issue has become embroiled in widespread anti-Americanism and suspicions, fanned by the Pakistani media and used for political advantage, that U.S. spies and intelligence contractors are secretly operating in the country. It has also posed a challenge to Pakistan's weak civilian government as it struggles to wrest control of national security policy from the powerful military and fends off opposition political parties.* 

The most powerful opposition group, the Pakistan Muslim League headed by former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, rules Punjab province and its capital, Lahore, where Davis is being held and several hearings have taken place in the case. 

*Although the administration has been unequivocal in its insistence that David has diplomatic status, it has been less than clear on the nature of his job in Pakistan over the last two years. An early embassy statement said it was "security" related, while officials in Washington have said that he vetted questionable visa applicants. The CIA has declined to comment on the case.* 

*On Thursday, the Lahore court extended Davis's detention for another eight days. The U.S. Embassy complained that it was given no notice of the hearing, that Davis had no attorney present, and that he was not provided with an interpreter.* 

*"He was denied due process and a fair hearing," the statement said. "His continued detention is a gross violation of international law." *

*Although Zardari's Pakistan People's Party government has close relations with the administration, and depends on the billions of dollars in U.S. military and economic assistance, it fears being painted as a U.S. lackey.* 

*A foreign ministry official said that the government itself is divided over the case. The ministry has determined that Davis is immune from prosecution based on his passport and diplomatic visa, and the fact that Pakistan "accepted" that when the Davis first arrived in the fall of 2009, the official said. 

Other parts of the government, he said, see some advantage in using the situation to prove the government's independence from Washington. But the Americans, he said, "have dropped hints they could go to any extent" to get Davis released.* 

*Further complicating the situation, a Pakistani intelligence official said that the two men Davis killed were not, as he has said, armed robbers intent on stealing money, his telephone and perhaps his car, but intelligence agents assigned to tail him. This official said the two intended to frighten Davis because he crossed a "red line" that the official did not further define.* 

*Both the military's Inter-Services Intelligence service (ISI) and the Interior Ministry's Intelligence Bureau regularly use motorcycle tails to track the movement of U.S. officials, another Pakistani official said.* 

The Pakistani media has also suggested that Davis is being held hostage to a wrongful death case brought in New York by family members of four Americans killed in the 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai, India. U.S. and Indian officials have blamed the attack on the Pakistani organization Lashkar-i-Taiba, which has long-standing ties to ISI. Four senior ISI officials, including the organization's director, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, have been called as witnesses in the case.

*According to his 2009 visa application, Davis was born in Wise, Va. He gave an address in Las Vegas, where he is listed in Nevada state registration records as the co-owner of a firm called Hyperion Protective Services.* 

On Sunday, the widow of one of the men killed by Davis committed suicide in the city of Faisalabad. According to a doctor at the hospital where she was admitted after ingesting rat poison, she said she did it because she feared Davis would be released without facing trial. 

Brulliard reported from Islamabad. Special correspondent Shaiq Hussain in Islamabad contributed to this report.


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## SEAL

US only hurting their interests in the region they need Pakistan and they have to sacrifice Raymond Davis.


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## prototype

ice_man said:


> ^^ i don't understand why are indians so desperate to court USA??


 
Due to the same reason u were desperate to court Chinese


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## Mani2020

Its like "tumne hamein Raymond nahi diya humne tumse nahi bolna" what ha cheap diplomacy .they really need to take some classes of diplomacy


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## Paan Singh

remove those pics imran ji,it doesnt look good to be here


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## Spring Onion

rockstar said:


> Islamabad is in a dilemma, US will get angry if they prosecute this guy. If they grant diplomatic immunity, public will go mad..
> 
> How will they handle the situation, lets wait and see..


 
The guy is not going to be prosecuted . already some unconfirmed reports claim that he was seen in disguised in a hotel (now only time will prove if its true).


as far as US getting angry and cutting off Zardari visit well that in no way can affect Pakistan and our public generally.

If US want to cut off cooperation in WoT well entire Pakistan will welcome it. and i see a fair chance of unity among all sections of Pakistani society over this.

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## Imran Khan

but i wanna see them and we should be ready for them i pray they release this killer and one day all will be like this.how many decades more they blackmail us? these dogs get aid eat and we suffer nation is now on fire .may god destroy our gov.


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## Rafael

nescafe said:


> *i think the time is the most near now , when we have to wind up our nukes in order to trade for the financial influx.*.



Bullshit. We shall never wind up our nuclear program. The only guarantee to exist in this unfriendly world we have after Allah's will, is our nuclear assets. We shall never abandon it. Come what may!!


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## Paan Singh

Imran Khan said:


> but i wanna see them and we should be ready for them i pray they release this killer and one day all will be like this.how many decades more they blackmail us? these dogs get aid eat and we suffer nation is now on fire .may god destroy our gov.



sir ji,
dont forget u ran first to them when pakistan is made.
u still use their weapons as u used to have in 80's.
u took their money from starting,and they are getting facility as they can do


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## LeGenD

Glorious Resolve said:


> Sanctions always lead to the down fall of the economy,


In addition to sanctions, downfall of economy can also occur due to corruption, lack of competent staff, and mismanagement.



Glorious Resolve said:


> but it will reduce the losses we are suffering from WoT, we survived the sanctions before, no big deal in it, but the question is why the hell will USA put sanctions on Pakistan because of one man Davis? The talk is of cutting aid isn't it?


Depends upon the type of sanctions imposed. Pakistan was still recieving US aid when nuclear tests were carried out. Back then, our energy requirements were low, population was low, urban sector was not very modernized, and Pakistan was not in a state of war. Therefore, Pakistan made it through those not-so-turbulent times.

In current times; Pakistan is facing pressures of WOT and natural disasters. In addition, population has increased a lot, urban society has become increasingly dependent upon material resources, our energy requirements have also immensely increased. And our economy is in very bad shape. 

While we have suffered losses from WOT; we also are being compensated through massive economic aids and revenue we get from transportation of NATO supplies. So it is not the only issue.



Glorious Resolve said:


> Pakistan will not be the only one which will suffer, the whole Afghanistan will suffer, we did a very good job in containing the talibs threat before, we can do it again


And the entire world (including China) would accept Taliban? It is not so easy. Another bad event occurs in the WEST and we might witness nuclear retaliation. Think about all this.



Glorious Resolve said:


> Back to the old equation it will be..
> Only difference is this time Pakistan is a Nuclear Armed State and no body takes risks with a nuclear State, nor any one will want it to fail.


These kinds of self-assurances will lead us to our demise. The way things are in Pakistan in current times; no one needs to attack us. Once all kinds of aid are cut off and heavy sanctions imposed; our state will collapse sooner than you think.

USSR also had nuclear weapons; Did these weapons prevented COLD WAR and its disintegration?



DV RULES said:


> What about crime rate then i am referring you site to check;
> 
> United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
> 
> India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
> (I didn't find Pakistan there)
> 
> Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
> 
> 
> United states: 5.62 per 100,000
> Pakistan : 3.60 per 100,000
> 
> Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rates


Are you really this naive?

Crime rates in Pakistan are *under reported.* Even our police openly accepts this. The amount of decay in our society is tremendous. And not to forget the menance of terrorism.

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## duhastmish

raheel1 said:


> Its not about Pakistan's pride. Its about setting the precedence. Remember we kept quite during first few drone strikes in FATA and Waziristan and look where we stand today. If he is let go without any guarantees or charges, It will come back and haunt us a few years from now. Therefore no matter what happens, he shouldn't be allowed to leave the country untill he is proven innocent.
> 
> P.S I forgot to mention; USA can go **** and itsef and Hillary too for that matter.


 
i agree with you raheel , totally - i dont deny that this mofo should be punished. 

what i was saying : does paksitani current goverment have the balls to do it ? 
answer is : *NO*

why cant they do it ? 

*because they like to lick some white butt ? - when whole country and its citizen is singing in same voice (i.e. lets grab this murderer by his balls and punish him) why cant they just have some balls and stop being too defensive ?????*

USA : is openly causing big harm to pride of a country . 

being a bully - they are shooting inside Pakistan - with army drone n weapons n what not 
now they are openly firing ?

---------------
*the problem is people will be blindfolded by non issues - kashmir India and etc they are big issues but not right now - people will be taken for a ride. 

and i really really wish and hope that wont happen.*
even if have to be at a cost of big revolution.

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## duhastmish

*@ ice-man 
*


ice_man said:


> damn just when i thought you were talking correctly & intellectually! you had to go on and include india and nti india slogans!


 
i am not including india here - i am saying politics will work like this make people go on a totally diffrent path -

because of vote bank and distraction policy , when they will help mr raymond sneak out of country and its law.


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## Imran Khan

Prism said:


> sir ji,
> dont forget u ran first to them when pakistan is made.
> u still use their weapons as u used to have in 80's.
> u took their money from starting,and they are getting facility as they can do


 
yaar weapons for what ???? proud only ? for what these weapons are just for showcase? when nation is killed by drones and bombs and by US dogs on streets . what we do with these junks which cant defend us? how many Pakistanis killed by India since 1971? and look how many Pakistanis killed by US. these weapons may be for armed forces to feel happy but for nations these are toilet papers .go to hell USA and and there god damn weapons.weapons huhfor what nations buy weapons?

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## Imran Khan

delegations go to hell just hang him or we will hang you zardari


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## Imran Khan

U.S.-Pakistan relations strained further with case of jailed diplomat

he is not a diplomat but a killer of 3 pakistanis

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## AstanoshKhan

Rabzon said:


> *U.S.-Pakistan relations strained further with case of jailed diplomat*
> 
> By Karen DeYoung and Karin Brulliard
> Washington Post Staff Writers
> Monday, February 7, 2011
> 
> *The Obama administration has suspended all high-level dialogue with Pakistan, a key U.S. partner in the Afghanistan war, over the case of an American diplomat the Pakistanis have detained on possible murder charges, U.S. and Pakistani officials said.*



The article lost authenticity in the headline of the news, by calling him a diplomat, which has been proved over and over again that he's not a diplomat. I would not comment on the rest of the article and the writers' biased views - the usual Army and ISI mongering.

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## Rafael

duhastmish said:


> i agree with you raheel , totally - i dont deny that this mofo should be punished.
> 
> what i was saying : does paksitani current goverment have the balls to do it ?
> answer is : *NO*
> 
> why cant they do it ?
> 
> *because they like to lick some white butt ? - when whole country and its citizen is singing in same voice (i.e. lets grab this murderer by his balls and punish him) why cant they just have some balls and stop being too defensive ?????*
> 
> USA : is openly causing big harm to pride of a country .
> 
> being a bully - they are shooting inside Pakistan - with army drone n weapons n what not
> now they are openly firing ?
> 
> ---------------
> *the problem is people will be blindfolded by non issues - kashmir India and etc they are big issues but not right now - people will be taken for a ride.
> 
> and i really really wish and hope that wont happen.*
> even if have to be at a cost of big revolution.


 
Duha this incident has become a test case for the Govt. of Pakistan. It can niether allow that basta*d to scot free nor can it afford to take on the Americans. I believe this will decide the fate of Pakistani nation; i.e whether we can restore our pride by allowing the courts to take their time and give their verdict based on merits of the case or we bow down to American pressure and release him which in return will result in more such cases. In latter case, the govt. will have to quit and a huge egypt like protests (more anarchy) will emerge from the streets of Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad. 

I am putting my bets on the Supreme court as they have asked GOP to put his name in ECL list and warned them not to hand him over to Americans. Lets see if the govt. can take on SC, people and army at the same time because according to some reports in the media, COAS too is not very happy with American.


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## Spring Onion

lionheart1 said:


> same way pakistan cannot survive without american aid and IMF money, think about it,


 
Stupid bharati claim.


we did survive better than now with US sanctions on us. we did survive better when US left us in lurch burdening us with millions of Afghan refugees with all aid for them completely stopped.


Be sure we will survive because the aid is not being spent on Pakistanis but wasted on US war and the remaining is going to pockets of US puppets.

Under CSF Pakistan army has NOT Been paid a single penny yet. go read the recent report.

So stop your emotional diatribe here

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## Spring Onion

Glorious Resolve said:


> i see females with out Burqa Hijab-- Bloody Liberal terrorists--


 
The lady with the fist in the air is well known Pakistani surgeon  she is known throughout Pakistan a Cancer Specialist doctor. She had been helping women for a long time here

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## AstanoshKhan

nescafe said:


> oo come on...WE (us and you) dont have to be that cocky....  if the CSF / ESF (18 billion , 2001 - 2009) would not have been there then the country would have been imploded (defaulted monetarily). now this scenario does not exclude IMF which would have been blocked , because IMF 11 billion would not have reached us untill we already have a system intact and have some Foreigh reserves to do buissness.
> 
> now what,
> 
> PIA has almost imploded.
> PSO is defaulter (todays news)
> KESC has imploded
> railways has imploded
> 
> we are moving towards a major catastroph and the only people responsible are PAKISTANIS. our corruption, our miss management and our lack of commitment towards national issues.
> 
> we have to be guilty rather then being cocky. the "maula jatt" attitude will drag us to deeper pitt.


 
Oh yaar, do you even have an iota of idea where that aid goes? You gave a list of imploded organizations means that aid is being utilized somewhere else or else these organization wouldn't have been in this state as they are in today. The common man has never and is not benefiting any of these aids since to hell with them and their aids. My dear what on earth do you expect from this present political scum? Their slogan is; to hell with common man and country, let's fill our pockets.

... and believe me, we can survive without their aids.

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## Imran Khan

ITS good chance for GOP to prove them self as a true patriotic Pakistani or else ready to bloody revolution

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## LeGenD

safriz said:


> If it was that easy,they had done it long ago..their own economies are down in the dumps due to this war,but the reality is much deeper than most people can understand....Simply put..they cant pull out.


Who is stopping them from pulling out? We need to stop assuming upon things.

This similar BS was also repeated in case of Iraq; Not only US won over there but it has pulled most of its combat forces out of Iraq - only 47000 left now.

I hope that OEF ends ASAP. We need a sigh of relief.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That makes no sense, because then any criminal could claim 'diplomatic immunity' when being arrested after a crime, and argue that he should not be arrested until the 'Foreign Office confirms/denies diplomatic immunity'.
> 
> A double homicide was committed, the suspect was in possession of an illegal firearm. The suspect did not have the proper papers establishing diplomatic immunity. I don't see how the police acted improperly in this case.


Unfortunately, diplomats of most countries do try to hide under the cover of 'diplomatic immunity' after committing a crime. Ours did too.

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## Aslan

lionheart1 said:


> same way pakistan cannot survive without american aid and IMF money, think about it,


 
Just like you cant live with out showing your indianess every other post. Whats with you guys and aid, seriously get beyond it dude. Pakistan has been there and survived, and so we can again. And FYI if you had paid more attention to it we as normal Pakistanis dont benefit from it any ways. Its just a showpiece that is keeping the few of the corrupt ones happy so that the Americans can have their way.

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## VCheng

So far there is only the threat of pressure from the US. When the pressure is *really *applied, it will lead to pretty effective results. I am just sad that it will come to this if need be, and it is only the people of Pakistan who will suffer the most due to the economic fallout.


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## JonAsad

LeGenD said:


> In addition to sanctions, downfall of economy can also occur due to corruption, lack of competent staff, and mismanagement.



Yup and Raymond Davis or No Raymond Davis--
Sanctions or no sanctions--
Defence deals or no Defence deals--
The corruption, incompetence and mismanagement will remain-



LeGenD said:


> Depends upon the type of sanctions imposed. Pakistan was still recieving US aid when nuclear tests were carried out. Back then, our energy requirements were low, population was low, urban sector was not very modernized, and Pakistan was not in a state of war. Therefore, Pakistan made it through those not-so-turbulent times.



There is no questions of sanctions - i do not know where the word sanctions coming from- America is not going to put sanctions-- Not going to change its Foreign policy- and 5 years Afghanistan plan- suddenly because of Raymond Davis-



LeGenD said:


> In current times; Pakistan is facing pressures of WOT and natural disasters. In addition, population has incread a lot, urban society has become increasingly dependent upon material resources, and our energy requirements have also immensely increased. And our economy is in very bad shape.



Again-- Our condition will remain the same- Releasing Raymond Davis or facing the supposed sanctions are not going to change any thing- The Change depends only on us- Do we want to be dependent always or Independent- at least try-



LeGenD said:


> While we have suffered losses from WOT; we also are being compensated through massive economic aids and revenue we get from transportation of NATO supplies. So it is not the only issue.



We are being compensated, but not enough- Looking at our current state- isn't it obvious?



LeGenD said:


> And the entire world (including China) would accept Taliban? It is not so easy. Another bad event occurs in the WEST and we might witness nuclear retaliation. Think about all this.



Another Talibans is the worst case scenario, my point was we are alone capable of handling the situation in Afghanistan than any one else- Leave us both alone- and see what we come up with next-




LeGenD said:


> These kinds of self-assurances will lead us to our demise. The way things are in Pakistan in current times; no one needs to attack us. Once all kinds of aid are cut off and heavy sanctions imposed; our state will collapse sooner than you think.
> 
> USSR also had nuclear weapons; Did these weapons prevented COLD WAR and its disintegration?



No- Do not under estimate your self, or at least do not drag rest of us along- We will not collapse- See around you- There are lot of sanctions laden countries still surviving- becoming independent-- its a blessing in disguise-- a wake up call- for us it will be too- 
USSR disintegrated for other reasons- not because of sanctions- Pakistan case is different- we are not going for super power status- world dominance- attacking countries- creating mess-

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## Imran Khan

you know dear we are same like young man beggar .if every one give 1$ to this young beggar he will be remain beggar until end but if public stop give him beg one day he realize he has to work he has to earn and he has to make his life by him self. and young beggar is Pakistan now a days . they should stop every single penny of aid take back loans and finish diplomatic relations so all CIA CLACK WATER agents go back we pull back from WOT so no more waste of lifes and money .and then we work not to beg.

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## kugga

Imran Khan said:


> yaar weapons for what ???? proud only ? for what these weapons are just for showcase? when nation is killed by drones and bombs and by US dogs on streets . what we do with these junks which cant defend us? how many Pakistanis killed by India since 1971? and look how many Pakistanis killed by US. these weapons may be for armed forces to feel happy but for nations these are toilet papers .go to hell USA and and there god damn weapons.weapons huhfor what nations buy weapons?



Use these weapons or dump them right now.. No need of these weapons if they are nor capable of protecting our lives.... Shut all negotiation wid america nd just kill the damn terrorist...

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## Imran Khan

not only this dog but we have to kisck out hundreds like him which haqani SOB send them here.


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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> you know dear we are same like young man beggar .if every one give 1$ to this young beggar he will be remain beggar until end but if public stop give him beg one day he realize he has to work he has to earn and he has to make his life by him self. and young beggar is Pakistan now a days . they should stop every single penny of aid take back loans and finish diplomatic relations so all CIA CLACK WATER agents go back we pull back from WOT so no more waste of lifes and money .and then we work not to beg.


 

Imran Bhai- There are people who wants to keep receiving Aid- IMF Loans- They want to be like this for ever- 

Then

There are people who wants change- are tired of being called beggars- wants to become self sufficient- independent-
and I am sure majority of Pakistani people are fed up- They want to restore their Pride and freedom.
Quaid e Azam gave us a vision-- and that vision definitely does not include Begging.

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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


> you know dear we are same like young man beggar .if every one give 1$ to this young beggar he will be remain beggar until end but if public stop give him beg one day he realize he has to work he has to earn and he has to make his life by him self. and young beggar is Pakistan now a days . they should stop every single penny of aid take back loans and finish diplomatic relations so all CIA CLACK WATER agents go back we pull back from WOT so no more waste of lifes and money .and then we work not to beg.




If only that is so easy as it is made out by your post!

Pakistan is borrowing to stay afloat to cover its IMPEX trade gap along with current deficit. Pakistan has to pay for oil imports along with other machinery equipment - there is no free lunch.

Without US support in IMF-WB (where US has biggest clout and veto like power) Pakistan wont be able to borrow more.

That means default, that means you can not borrow AGAIN!

Then who will lubricate the rusty wheels of Pakistan`s industry?

Before issuing immotional statements, think of this:

Chinese dig the well - BEFORE THEY ARE THIRSTY.......

Words only wont suffice, its time for action.


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## Imran Khan




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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


>



It would always be good to describe what this urdu text means for non Pakistanis who dont know this language. Albiet in brief.
Thanks


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## lionheart1

Jana said:


> Stupid bharati claim.
> 
> 
> we did survive better than now with US sanctions on us. we did survive better when US left us in lurch burdening us with millions of Afghan refugees with all aid for them completely stopped.
> 
> 
> Be sure we will survive because the aid is not being spent on Pakistanis but wasted on US war and the remaining is going to pockets of US puppets.
> 
> Under CSF Pakistan army has NOT Been paid a single penny yet. go read the recent report.
> 
> So stop your emotional diatribe here


 
answer to your question are Post no 25,26, which are written by a pakistani, 

if you dont believe in his words same way i can tell you are stupid pakistani . you cannot give uranium for a poor as a food ,


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## Imran Khan

ignore it dear its not for you simply

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## lionheart1

Aslan said:


> Just like you cant live with out showing your indianess every other post. Whats with you guys and aid, seriously get beyond it dude. Pakistan has been there and survived, and so we can again. And FYI if you had paid more attention to it we as normal Pakistanis dont benefit from it any ways. Its just a showpiece that is keeping the few of the corrupt ones happy so that the Americans can have their way.


 
yes pakistan was there , and history of pakistan is histroy of aid tell me when did pakistani did took aid from nato and USA.


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## Developereo

Let's be realistic here.

The US will not leave Afghanistan.
Instead they will increase support to TTP and unleash a wave of terror inside Pakistan.


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## LeGenD

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yup and Raymond Davis or No Raymond Davis--
> Sanctions or no sanctions--
> Defence deals or no Defence deals--
> The corruption, incompetence and mismanagement will remain-


We need to address the issues of corruption, incompetence, and mismanagement, if we wish to progress. These issues should not remain.



Glorious Resolve said:


> There is no questions of sanctions - i do not know where the word sanctions coming from- America is not going to put sanctions-- Not going to change its Foreign policy- and 5 years Afghanistan plan- suddenly because of Raymond Davis-


Brother, we are talking about *America* here. If they could invade Panama for just one man; I won't be surprised if they threaten to cut all economic aid to us for this man. Oh wait! They already have started threatening us on Davis.



Glorious Resolve said:


> Again-- Our condition will remain the same- Releasing Raymond Davis or facing the supposed sanctions are not going to change any thing- The Change depends only on us- Do we want to be dependent always or Independent- at least try-


Sanctions will hurt our chances to revive our economy. We cannot afford them in current state. I agree on the change part. We need to change ourselves and plan reforms. We need to optimize our resources and find solutions to our problems. This will not happen overnight though.

Right now, we are not in the position to tell US to get out from Pakistan and make it clear to them that we do not need their aid and support. 

We have failed to achieve _khud mukhtari_ since independence.



Glorious Resolve said:


> We are being compensated, but not enough- Looking at our current state- isn't it obvious?


USA has its own issues and agenda. It has given us lot of aid and continues to do so. We cannot force them to do more. And why should we? You are talking about change right? This change will not come until we stop expecting a lot from others. We need to stand on our own feat.



Glorious Resolve said:


> Another Talibans is the worst case scenario, my point was we are alone capable of handling the situation in Afghanistan than any one else- Leave us both alone- and see what we come up with next-


How? We are not comfortable with Karzai government? Whom we would support in Afghanistan?



Glorious Resolve said:


> No- Do not under estimate your self, or at least do not drag rest of us along- We will not collapse- See around you- There are lot of sanctions laden countries still surviving- becoming independent-- its a blessing in disguise-- a wake up call- for us it will be too-


Again! It depends upon:

1. Type of sanctions imposed on a nation.
2. Resources of nation to withstand economic pressures.

Heavily sanctions nations typically go in decline. The case of Iraq is biggest example and Iraq was not short on resources. 

DPRK is another victim of tough economic sanctions. 

And pressure on Iran is also being increased.



Glorious Resolve said:


> USSR disintegrated for other reasons- not because of sanctions- Pakistan case is different- we are not going for super power status- world dominance- attacking countries- creating mess-


I know that USSR got disintegrated due to economic pressures, civil unrest, chernobyle accident, and COLD WAR.

Pakistan's status is indeed different from USSR but it is not invulnerable. The biggest threat to Pakistan is from inside and not from external forces.

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## JonAsad

Jana said:


> The lady with the fist in the air is well known Pakistani surgeon  she is known throughout Pakistan a Cancer Specialist doctor. She had been helping women for a long time here


 
I was playing Sarcasm-


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## VCheng

LeGenD: I agree with your post. Thank you for expressing your thoughts so clearly.

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## JonAsad

lionheart1 said:


> yes pakistan was there , and history of pakistan is histroy of aid tell me when did pakistani did took aid from nato and USA.



Look a beggar calling us a beggar--

*Economic aid - recipient 2010 Country Ranks*







http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/economic_aid_recipient_2010_0.html

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## Imran Khan

Glorious Resolve said:


> Look a beggar calling us a beggar--
> 
> *Economic aid - recipient 2010 Country Ranks*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/economic_aid_recipient_2010_0.html


 

oyeee yara ye kya ??/

bhek mangny ki line main hum india ke peechy khary hoty hai wo mang leta hai phir hamari bari ati hai hahahhhhhhhhhhhhhahaha

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## AstanoshKhan

US suspends high level talks with Pakistan but if someone is in Peshawar right now, they may see the chaos created by the suspension of NATO/US supply since morning. Every single road in Peshawar has been occupied by these tankers/trucks/trailors creating difficulties for us common people to move around in the already congested roads. I can't describe the state Peshawar is in today but one thing is for sure, the supply has been stopped and there are some oil tankers has been put on fire, the whole sky full of dark clouds.


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## JonAsad

Imran Khan said:


> oyeee yara ye kya ??/
> 
> bhek mangny ki line main hum india ke peechy khary hoty hai wo mang leta hai phir hamari bari ati hai hahahhhhhhhhhhhhhahaha



Look at our engagements, WoT- TTP- Bomb Blasts- Still we receive less aid than India-
Wait and see some briliant indian mind will come up with the excuse of aid per capita- ignoring the fact a Beggar will be called a beggar whether he has a single child or a quadruplets

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## tallboy123

farhan_9909 said:


> including a wife of one of the victim
> 
> we dnt want anything from america bt hang this man
> 
> *i will agree even on this we should return their whole +60 F-16/all other USA made weapons
> *
> bt dnt get it back to the USA.



Thats not a good idea...
u have MKi's wid ur neighbor....in future it will increase to 272...

so that's very bad idea....


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## JonAsad

> *'Davis case won&#8217;t affect Pak-US relations'*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: *US embassy in Islamabad has denied suspension of high-level dialogue with Pakistan over the case of an American detained on murder charges*, Geo News reported on Tuesday.
> 
> Talking to Geo News, spokeswoman for the embassy said that US is engaged in high-level contacts with Pakistan over Raymond Davis case.
> 
> She further said that US is also engaged in high-level dialogues to resolve Davis issue besides other agenda items.
> 
> To a question, she said that Raymond Davis case would not affect Pak-US relations.
> 
> She refused to comment on the arms recovered from the Davis custody.


''Davis case wont affect Pak-US relations'' - GEO.tv

Seems to me the only high level talk between Pakistan and USA are on Raymond Davis only


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## Stumper

LeGenD said:


> Sanctions will hurt our chances to revive our economy. We cannot afford them in current state. I agree on the change part. We need to change ourselves and plan reforms. We need to optimize our resources and find solutions to our problems. This will not happen overnight though.



First, i dont suppose you are being threatened with Sanctions. Second, no one need use the Davis case as a excuse for stopping economic aid. By going back on your words to implement IMF recommendations , you are already on that radar irrespective of the Davis case.



> Right now, we are not in the position to tell US to get out from Pakistan and make it clear to them that we do not need their aid and support.


Instead, let the court of Law decide on Mr.Davis. Let the aid continue till the time you implement the reforms. Remember, you have a very big debt and a threat of hyper inflation due to currency devaluation.




> This change will not come until we stop expecting a lot from others. We need to stand on our own feat.


Your citizens and political parties dont support you government.. Why ... the other day PPP called back the fuel hike under the pressure. I always wonder why dont your people stand behind your government instead of criticizing it at every decision. 




> Heavily sanctions nations typically go in decline. The case of Iraq is biggest example and Iraq was not short on resources.
> 
> DPRK is another victim of tough economic sanctions.



Why do you compare Pakistan with this nations. This countries faced economic blockade. You are not in same league as this rouge countries. Just implement the IMF recommendations, which are in fact pragmatic. Cut off all sick PSU's. Reduce the salaries of your minister's. Reduce working hours for public servants. Cut off subsidies. Ask the rich to pay more tax's. There us a lot you can do to continue the IMF aid.

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## Cheetah786

lionheart1 said:


> same way pakistan cannot survive without american aid and IMF money, think about it,


 
Let me c after paying management fees to us agencies left over ends in politicians overseas bank accounts can Pakistan survives without the money it never sees let me think Hmmm YES.

IMF Money is a loan which we pay interest on it's not for free and to make it even worse most of that is also robbed by the same politicians.


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## Spring Onion

Prism said:


> sir ji,
> dont forget u ran first to them when pakistan is made.
> u still use their weapons as u used to have in 80's.
> u took their money from starting,and they are getting facility as they can do


 
And you ran to Russia right ?


are you naive enough not to understand how diplomacy works?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Bravo to all brothers and sisters on PDF... You all make me proud... Pakistan is indeed rising for its people are standing up for Justice with courage and honor... You make me fill with pure delight... By God I have waited for such a long time to see people speak like you do with fairness... This young generation shall indeed make us proud... Enough of the traitors ruling us... Its time that Pakistan have leaders who look after the affairs of the people and set an example of honesty, justice and be the best of Muslims for the greatest good of all mankind!!!

Brothers and sisters... believe me or not... Change is in the air and soon Pakistan shall rise... We have fallen so low by now that we cannot fall any further... The only way for us is to get better... for ourselves and for others too inshaAllah!!!

Allah Akbar
Long Live Pakistan
Long Live Pakistan's Armed Forces

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## Paan Singh

Jana said:


> And you ran to Russia right ?
> 
> 
> are you naive enough not to understand how diplomacy works?



correct urself jana ji,
it was ussr.
and dont u think ussr behaved good with india where as usa derail pakistan?
and irony is that in this present time,usa is behaving good with india inspite of ur objections.........


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## Spring Onion

Prism said:


> correct urself jana ji,
> it was ussr.
> and dont u think ussr behaved good with india where as usa derail pakistan?
> and irony is that in this present time,usa is behaving good with india inspite of ur objections.........


 

We know US more than you know  . US-Pak relations have been like that for all these decades its a mutual interest based relations and had been good and shaky at times.


On the other hand yeh USSR/Russia had been good to you but you are now taking U-Turn that shows that in international politics nobody is permanent friend of foe and that is the case US-Pak relations too.


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## Paan Singh

Jana said:


> We know US more than you know  . US-Pak relations have been like that for all these decades its a mutual interest based relations and had been good and shaky at times.
> 
> 
> On the other hand yeh USSR/Russia had been good to you but you are now taking U-Turn that shows that in international politics nobody is permanent friend of foe and that is the case US-Pak relations too.


 
jana ji,

india is not taking u turn...
india have tied hands with both usa and russia at same time.
india is travelling through narrow road,but till now india is successful.
india have seen how usa behaves with its friendsP)...
so u have set good example..
btw india is not pakistan


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## Cheetah786

lionheart1 said:


> yes pakistan was there , and history of pakistan is histroy of aid tell me when did pakistani did took aid from nato and USA.


 
This is how most indians stay in denial about aid to India





Yes virginia you still even today get Aid.

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## below_freezing

Give him some permanent head surgery. Nothing's going to happen.

We shot the British drug dealer last year, besides crying what are they going to do? We also shot Japanese and Korean drug dealers, they don't even cry.

Singapore hung Australians and whipped Americans, what happened? Nothing.

Tell Obama this: If you come to Pakistan and kill 2 people, we will arrest, try, convict and execute you too.

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## ares

With anti American sentiment all riled up , this can be a golden opportunity for Pakistani govts(central or state) to sway public opinion in their favour, if they could just stand upto US pressure and maybe humiliate US a little in the process.. off-course all this will be against Pakistan's national interests in the long run..but hey all is fair in politics.


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## Lankan Ranger

*US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan
*
United States has suspended high-level contacts with Pakistan as ties between the two countries continue to deteriorate over the Raymond Davis affair. 

The situation has worsened to such an extent that the Obama administration is reported to be putting a hold on Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari's proposed visit to Washington next month. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also declined to meet Pakistan's foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on the sidelines of a security conference in Munich. Agitated US lawmakers have indicated that defense and economic ties, including aid to Pakistan, may need to be revisited. 

So what is the Raymond Davis affair? While Washington and much of the world continues to be transfixed by the drama over democracy in Egypt, an ugly sideshow involving spooks and spying in Pakistan is consuming the Obama administration, redrawing the security contours with regards to what was once regarded as a stalwart ally. 

Davis, an alleged private security contractor, was on the rolls of the American diplomatic mission in Pakistan when he shot dead two Pakistanis last month in what he said was in self-defense after they attempted to rob him. He has been incarcerated pending legal proceedings despite US demands that he be freed because he enjoys diplomatic immunity. 

Washington has now convinced Pakistan that Davis has a diplomatic passport, and although it is stamped with a work visa, he is entitled to diplomatic immunity under international conventions. But the situation in Pakistan appears to have slipped out of government's control, with anti-U.S interests and pro-American sources each selectively leaking information to inflame public opinion, which is already anti-American. 

For instance, it turns out that even as Islamabad is publicly resisting American pressure, a section of the Pakistani establishment has revealed that the two men who were shot were in fact agents of the ISI, its spy agency. Adding to the confusion, the wife of one of the alleged robbers/spies died under mysterious circumstances in a Pakistani hospital after consuming poison, but not before she met journalists and issued a revenge call, demanding "blood for blood." 

Meanwhile, unnamed Pakistani officials also told the Express Tribune newspaper in Lahore that the Pakistani government's "tough stance" on the whole issue was also a "reaction to the attempts by certain elements in Washington to implicate...the ISI in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks," including the decision by an American court to summon top ISI officials in connections with the attacks. 

The incredible and often acrimonious drama, being played out on the sidelines of the Egypt spectacle, has greatly soured ties between US and Pakistan, with the growing feeling in Washington that its once-famed ally is now turning rogue. There is now a demand in some quarters in Washington to turn off the aid spigot vital for Pakistan's survival, even as there is pressure on the civilian government in Islamabad to hold to account the United States, whose lifeline to its 140,000 troops in Afghanistan runs through Pakistan. 

Some analysts are starting to compare the situation to the one that existed between US and Iran during the hostage crisis. 

Matters have reached such a head that the US ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter called on President Asif Ali Zardari in Islamabad on Monday to follow up on Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's phone call to him last week to resolve the matter, which has now become more complicated by the latest disclosure and the suicide. 

But instead of moving towards a resolution, Pakistan on Monday put three more Americans, accused of driving a vehicle that came to rescue Davis but instead killed a pedestrian in a hit-and-run incident, on an exit control list. 

The atmosphere has been particularly exacerbated by the alleged suicide of Shumaila Kanwal, widow of the one of the men shot dead by Davis. Kanwal, 26, reportedly told medics and journalists that she was ending her life in protest at alleged leniency shown towards Davis. "I want blood for blood," she was quoted as saying after she arrived at the hospital. "The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion. I need justice." 

Pictures in the Pakistani media showed Kanwal being tube fed and drinking water, but she was mysteriously pronounced dead a few hours later. Soon after, some Pakistani politicians have demanded that Davis and other Americans be tried for her death too. The US mission has declined to hand over the three other Americans accused in the hit-and-run case. 

All this now makes it even more difficult for Pakistan's civilian government to release Davis even if it now transpires, as was reported by the Express Tribune, that the two motorcycle borne men who were killed were ISI agents. An unnamed security official told the newspaper, which is brought out in collaboration with the International Herald Tribune, that the duo belonged to the security establishment and "found the activities of the American official detrimental to our national security."

Tinkered, Tailored, Soldered, Spied: US suspends high-level contact with Pakistan - The Times of India


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## Hulk

I did not expect US to go this far, by the way this news is not on any main papers.


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## somebozo

bhagathsingh said:


> ye tho honahi dha..now pakistan will speed up it's shift towards chinese camp.america and india will come closer..but i hate american hypocrisy and biased agreements.


 Only until congress is in power.


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## ashok321

*U.S.-Pakistan relations strained further with case of jailed diplomat*




> Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton canceled a meeting last weekend with Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi at an international security conference in Munich to protest Allen's detention, according to officials from both countries who were not authorized to discuss the situation on the record.






> The administration has twice summoned Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani to the White House for formal complaints and demands that Pakistan recognize Davis's diplomatic immunity and release him immediately. The message was repeated in a meeting in Islamabad Monday between Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and U.S. Ambassador Cameron Munter.



U.S.-Pakistan relations strained further with case of jailed diplomat


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## Obambam

below_freezing said:


> Give him some permanent head surgery. Nothing's going to happen.
> 
> We shot the British drug dealer last year, besides crying what are they going to do? We also shot Japanese and Korean drug dealers, they don't even cry.
> 
> Singapore hung Australians and whipped Americans, what happened? Nothing.
> 
> Tell Obama this: If you come to Pakistan and kill 2 people, we will arrest, try, convict and execute you too.




Yes you are correct brother. There were a lot of noise made about the asian drug dealer who was sentenced and executed in China.
There were articles about how his family and friends went to China and even protested outside the Chinese embassy etc. Heard excuses ranging from he was innocent to he had mental instability. In the end what happened? He got executed and not a word said since.

If he had mental issues then as a friend or family member, they wouldn't have let him go abroad alone? It's pathtic how the west can think out of their backside so much. 
In Raymond Davis' case, the Americans are clearly thinking that their lives mean more than the others. So I am guessing the so called "human right" can only favour themselves but used against others as a weapon?


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## Hulk

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=10818

ISLAMABAD: US embassy in Islamabad has denied suspension of high-level dialogue with Pakistan over the case of an American detained on murder charges, Geo News reported on Tuesday.

Talking to Geo News, spokeswoman for the embassy said that US is engaged in high-level contacts with Pakistan over Raymond Davis case.

She further said that US is also engaged in high-level dialogues to resolve Davis issue besides other agenda items.

To a question, she said that Raymond Davis case would not affect Pak-US relations.

She refused to comment on the arms recovered from the Davis custody

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## araz

GOOD ZARDARI BACHA WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MEET HIS WOMAN! The man is on trial and it is the courts that decide what happens to him. So far this Nikkammy Government cant even tell us whether this man has diplomatic immunity or not!!!
Araz

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## logic

THE FACT IS GOP HAS SOLD OUT PAKISTAN.
THIS GOVERNMENT IS CORRUPT TO THE CORE. 
THEY WILL PROTECT US INTEREST EVEN AT THE COST OF PAKISTAN.
SHAME ON GOP.

It will be best for the country if US cuts all aid. 
THE AID ends up in the hands of corrupt officials of GOP.
And we the people have to pay back the loan with extortionist mark up.


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## Solomon2

Hmm, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that this Davis guy was a diplomat, or that he killed two guys because he reasonably (according to witnesses) felt he could be under immediate threat. 

Since I spent some years of my life living and commuting through diplomatic neighborhoods in the D.C. area Pakistanis do have some of my sympathy. Yet this shooting incident is the sort of thing diplomatic immunity is for.



duhastmish said:


> *the question remains can Pakistan still fight for its pride and ego at such high cost of its very much existence.*


*Yes, I suppose that as you see it Pakistan shouldn't fight for what is morally and legally correct but for the "pride and ego" you see as necessary to your idea of Pakistani identity.*


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## Solomon2

logic said:


> THEY WILL PROTECT US INTEREST EVEN AT THE COST OF PAKISTAN.


There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Davis has immunity or that he killed because he reasonably (according to eyewitnesses and police) felt his life to be in immediate danger. This is the sort of thing diplomatic immunity is for. What "cost of Pakistan" are you talking about?


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## logic

Solomon2 said:


> There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Davis has immunity or that he killed because he reasonably (according to eyewitnesses and police) felt his life to be in immediate danger. This is the sort of thing diplomatic immunity is for. What "cost of Pakistan" are you talking about?


 
All your comments are based on assumptions and personal opinion. the case is in court. The whole gang of thugs and goons have said that courts will decide the case.

YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE COST IF US GOVERNMENT UNLEASHED its BLACK WATER punks on US citizens.


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## WAQAS119

Glorious Resolve said:


> Look a beggar calling us a beggar--
> 
> *Economic aid - recipient 2010 Country Ranks*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/economic_aid_recipient_2010_0.html


 
World power of toilet dreams AKA bharat is taking aid!

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## Stumper

logic said:


> THE FACT IS GOP HAS SOLD OUT PAKISTAN.
> THIS GOVERNMENT IS CORRUPT TO THE CORE.
> THEY WILL PROTECT US INTEREST EVEN AT THE COST OF PAKISTAN.
> SHAME ON GOP.
> 
> It will be best for the country if US cuts all aid.
> THE AID ends up in the hands of corrupt officials of GOP.
> And we the people have to pay back the loan with extortionist mark up.


 
Arey bhai 

Why this rhetoric ? Your law agencies and government has followed the procedure to the T. As of now they are holding their own against the might of US diplomacy, in the Davis case. And you still call your own government names? 

When the same government took steps to cut the fiscal deficit , you guys protest and forced them back. 

Is this not hypocrisy ? 

If you care, stand up with your government. Tell them you will support them in this moment of crisis. Strengthen them. 

Name calling is easy. What matters is how do you, as citizen of your country, stand up for what is the need of hour --- that of each citizen to pay up his/her taxes, pay that extra dollar for your gas, invest in your economy by being entrepreneur. After that, you will have the right to question your senators and federal ministers.

Regards.


----------



## bc040400065

Solomon2 said:


> Hmm, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that this Davis guy was a diplomat, or that he killed two guys because he reasonably (according to witnesses) felt he could be under immediate threat.
> 
> Since I spent some years of my life living and commuting through diplomatic neighborhoods in the D.C. area Pakistanis do have some of my sympathy. Yet this shooting incident is the sort of thing diplomatic immunity is for.
> 
> Yes, I suppose that as you see it Pakistan shouldn't fight for what is morally and legally correct but for the "pride and ego" you see as necessary to your idea of Pakistani identity.


 
If a pakistani diplomat had done the same in US, would he be handed over to pakistan?? i don't thinks so. Even if it was in self defence but a pakistanis would have faced US courts no immunity for any pakistani. pure double standards,
You better not teach us morality.

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## unicorn148

Pakistan should not bow to US demands and punish him according to Pakistan rules. Then only US will start behaving otherwise all the US nationals will think they can get away from anything

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## WAQAS119

Solomon2 said:


> Hmm, there *doesn't* seem to be any doubt that this Davis guy was a diplomat, or that he killed two guys because he reasonably (according to witnesses) felt he could be under immediate threat.



Waooooo at you intelligence! 
Can you explain how you deduced your result and issued innocence license to f**king Davis?


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## khurasaan1

Actually their task is to use diplomatic vehicles to supply explosives to TTP terrorists for terrorism within the country...


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> Hmm, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that this Davis guy was a diplomat, or that he killed two guys because he reasonably (according to witnesses) felt he could be under immediate threat.
> 
> Since I spent some years of my life living and commuting through diplomatic neighborhoods in the D.C. area Pakistanis do have some of my sympathy. Yet this shooting incident is the sort of thing diplomatic immunity is for.
> 
> Yes, I suppose that as you see it Pakistan shouldn't fight for what is morally and legally correct but for the "pride and ego" you see as necessary to your idea of Pakistani identity.


 
Actually there is plenty of doubt...

The LHC has already asked the federal government to present evidence that he holds a valid visa and it will be scrutinized in court - Federal government's Rehman Malik has said he has diplomatic visa and diplomatic passport the combo is an absolute must to grant him immunity. If they can prove that then he walks. No issue. But for some reason they are not producing it, since I think it just does not exist.

Reasonable threat has not been ascertained according to witnesses. It is based upon the fact that one of the victim carried a gun. Witnesses have said he chased them and shot them on the back. Autopsy report confirms this. Ballistics analysis confirms the armed victim's gun was not fired.

So nothing is proven except by the rule of "An american said so". Nobody wants American blood just for the fun of it, we don't want to set a precendence where Americans can walk off after killing Pakistanis. American consular staff according to FO manual is accorded only limited immunity (from crimes like jay walking, double parking, speeding, etc). Ambassadors and Chancelors are awarded immunity from these type of cases.

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## logic

Stumper said:


> Arey bhai
> 
> Why this rhetoric ? Your law agencies and government has followed the procedure to the T. As of now they are holding their own against the might of US diplomacy, in the Davis case. And you still call your own government names?
> 
> When the same government took steps to cut the fiscal deficit , you guys protest and forced them back.
> 
> Is this not hypocrisy ?



Arey Bahi The poor little wife of the victim committed suicide because *the GOP was actively sabotaging the case*. 
You will only understand this if you live inside Pakistan.


> If you care, stand up with your government. Tell them you will support them in this moment of crisis. Strengthen them.
> 
> Name calling is easy. What matters is how do you, as citizen of your country, stand up for what is the need of hour --- that of each citizen to pay up his/her taxes, pay that extra dollar for your gas, invest in your economy by being entrepreneur. After that, you will have the right to question your senators and federal ministers.
> 
> Regards.


Bhai the deficit incurred by the GOP by lining there own pockets. This money was not spent on welfare of the people.
US money comes to PAK is then sent to US backed banks in Switzerland or Singapore or Dubai and the people are left to pay the debt and the extortionist interest that was not incurred by the people in the first place.

THE OFFICIALS OF GOP GO ON A CORRUPTION RAMPAGE INCURRING MASSIVE DEBTS WHILE PEOPLE ARE LEFT TO FOOT THE BILL.

GOP HAS BEEN A US DOMINION STATE SINCE 1950'S

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## bc040400065

WAQAS119 said:


> Waooooo at you intelligence!
> Can you explain how you deduced your result and issued innocence license to f**king Davis?


 
Actually any other human being other than US and Isreali citizen has no value for them. So it was these guys who are to be blamed because they did not gave a protocol to the US "Special diplomat" named R davis. so he had all the rights to shoot them just because he felt they were terrorist.
Pure bull double standards.
i don't know when this US-pak alliance will come to an end. Pakistanis are fed up of this humiliation.


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## Solomon2

logic said:


> All your comments are based on assumptions and personal opinion. the case is in court.


Diplomatic immunity is an administrative issue, not a legal one. Once it's established the diplomat in question has immunity, he's released. That's a matter of treaty which Pakistan has agreed (like every other country subscribing to standard diplomatic conventions) supersedes its courts. If some legal issues still entail, they take place without the presence of the diplomat who was involved in the incident.



> YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE COST IF US GOVERNMENT UNLEASHED its BLACK WATER punks on US citizens.


For years my intermediate bus stop was on Washington's Embassy Row. Plenty of foreign goons there. The Uniformed Division of the U.S. Secret Service patrolled the area - primarily to protect the diplomats, but as a second function to protect us innocent citizens from _them_. Does Pakistan have an equivalent?


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## Awesome

Never was a fan of LHC CJ Khwaja Sharif, but he would've been an asset here. 

He would've stuck to his guns, no matter if the fate of the world depended on it... Ijaz Ahmed is doing fine as well...

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## Safriz

Glorious Resolve said:


> Look a beggar calling us a beggar--
> 
> *Economic aid - recipient 2010 Country Ranks*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/economic_aid_recipient_2010_0.html


 
i doubt this list....how can china take aid? and that too from USA? China is now an aid giver not receiver.....................................


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## logic

Asim Aquil said:


> Never was a fan of LHC CJ Khwaja Sharif, but he would've been an asset here.
> 
> He would've stuck to his guns, no matter if the fate of the world depended on it... Ijaz Ahmed is doing fine as well...


 
IJAZ AHMAD IS PYGMY compared to Khawaja Sharif. Both of his sons studied in college with me so i know the integrity of the man personally. He would have had the foreign and interior ministries by the balls by now on this issue.


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## Solomon2

bc040400065 said:


> If a pakistani diplomat had done the same in US, would he be handed over to pakistan?? i don't thinks so.


If the _context _was the same the diplomat would be released from custody immediately. He might be declared _persona non grata_ and have to leave the country, or he might stay. 

Or is it your position that a Pakistani diplomat should shoot a few Americans as some twisted form of revenge, like in a tit-for-tat tribal conflict? That isn't what diplomatic immunity is for. In that case I imagine a large portion of Pakistani delegation would be kicked out of the country.


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## Awesome

Davis



> Another writ petition filed by Barrister Iqbal Jafree prayed to the court to pass directions to the government to prosecute Raymond Davis for committing* forgery by applying for a visa under a fake name*.
> 
> *Barrister Iqbal Jafree said Davis got a visa under a fake name*, which made the *whole process of visa doubtful and the his visa stood cancelled ab intio (from the beginning). *He said no *immunity obtained fraudulently *enjoyed validity in anywhere in world.
> 
> He said Raymond Davis used excessive force while gunning down two Pakistanis at the Qartaba Chowk on January 27 that shifted all burden on him. He said Raymond deserved no special treatment and should be punished for killing and committing fraud.
> 
> The issuance of a passport with a fake name to Davis by the US government was telltale for us, he said. *Earlier, on Feb 1, the LHC chief justice on petitions filed by Asif Hussain, Muhammad Asghar, Ahmad Masood Gujjar and Iqbal Jafree had ordered the Interior Ministry to place the name of Raymond Davis on the Exit Control List (ECL) and had sought a report till Feb 17 from the Foreign Ministry about diplomatic status of the US official, Raymond Davis*.

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## Solomon2

WAQAS119 said:


> Can you explain how you deduced your result and issued innocence license to f**king Davis?


I didn't claim he was "innocent", did I?


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## logic

Solomon2 said:


> If the _context _was the same the diplomat would be released from custody immediately. He might be declared _persona non grata_ and have to leave the country, or he might stay.



R. Davis had been declared _persona non grata_ twice while working in Peshawar earlier.


> Or is it your position that a Pakistani diplomat should shoot a few Americans as some twisted form of revenge, like in a tit-for-tat tribal conflict? That isn't what diplomatic immunity is for. In that case I imagine a large portion of Pakistani delegation would be kicked out of the country.


So you means a twisted US suspect shoot two people in revenge killing. While another US staffer crushing another to death. Hence a large portion of US delegation should be kicked out of Pakistan. IS VERY TRUE


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> I didn't claim he was "innocent", did I?


 
Don't worry, Davis will get a better trial than what Aafia got... Who got jailed for 86 years for shooting from a gun that has never been fired and with a bullet that has vanished and gun powder that was non-existant, but somehow she herself got shot in the process.

That is the level of your justice system. So don't lecture us on procedures and norms. Immunity can be claimed, but it will be determined by the LHC.

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## SpArK

Glorious Resolve said:


> Look a beggar calling us a beggar--
> 
> *Economic aid - recipient 2010 Country Ranks*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/economic_aid_recipient_2010_0.html


 
Wow.. its a nice list... 
India takes aid and loans from World bank, ADB.Infact more than India as a country the state governments are the ones who gets most of these aid's , which then add upto the country's list.

ADB and world bank has set up offices in here just for this i guess. 
Just last year itself the Kerala government , here has completed a water supply project entirely based on aid from Japan. 


Anyway its good and i expect more aid/loan to be given to local state governments on development programs..

*They are more than willing to lend us, as much as we want because we repay them.... also on time.. 

We simply needs to ask... thats all*.


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> In that case I imagine a large portion of Pakistani delegation would be kicked out of the country.


 
In all probability the US mission in Pakistan would be chased out and we'll hear about how special flights had to rescue them out of Pakistan if Davis walks without a trial. Americans are underestimating the fury of the people.

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## WAQAS119

Solomon2 said:


> I didn't claim he was "innocent", did I?


 
Oh! how simple and innocent you are!

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually there is plenty of doubt...The LHC has already asked the federal government to present evidence that he holds a valid visa -


Excuse me, but from what I understand the U.S. embassy says he has immunity AND the Gov't of Pakistan confirmed it. It is an administrative matter, confirmed by responsible parties without paperwork. No further documentation or legal proceedings are required. So Davis has to be released, even without official U.S. demand. 



> Reasonable threat has not been ascertained according to witnesses. It is based upon the fact that one of the victim carried a gun.


"Reasonable threat" doesn't need to be ascertained in order to proceed with the usual processes of diplomatic immunity. It is enough that the police arriving at the scene did not think Davis was a madman who had to be shot immediately to protect the general public. Diplomatic immunity is confirmed and the diplomat is released. Remaining legal issues may transpire without the offending diplomat's presence.


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## tallboy123

below_freezing said:


> Give him some permanent head surgery. Nothing's going to happen.
> 
> We shot the British drug dealer last year, besides crying what are they going to do? We also shot Japanese and Korean drug dealers, they don't even cry.
> 
> Singapore hung Australians and whipped Americans, what happened? Nothing.
> 
> *Tell Obama this: If you come to Pakistan and kill 2 people, we will arrest, try, convict and execute you too*.



cool,i wish this Pakistan says it as soon as possible...........


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> Don't worry, Davis will get a better trial than what Aafia got...


How is what you are proposing different from suspending diplomatic immunity entirely?

I get really tired hearing stories about Pakistani diplomats, Pakistani officials, or ordinary Pakistanis and how they cannot follow the obligations they signed on to bilaterally or under international law because they are too scared of the Pakistani people's anger. Trumpeting one's own cowardice does not make an impression that you are good but weak, rather that you are weak and bad.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

This guy had no diplomatic immunity... Secondly diplomatic immunity does not mean you can kill as you please... Ludicrous argument...

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## lionheart1

It seams, America taking the role of a global bully a bit too far


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## Safriz

i think the thread needs to calm down....dont forget that this is a discussion only,nothing to win and nothing to lose...just a free and hopefully friendly exchange of opinions...

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## Solomon2

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> This guy had no diplomatic immunity...


Once diplomatic immunity is granted it sticks to the person no matter what name they are using; it sticks like glue until after the person is declared _persona non grata_ and expelled or until his government revokes his immunity. 



> Secondly diplomatic immunity does not mean you can kill as you please... Ludicrous argument...


"Kill as you please" is your claim, not mine. 

"Kill as you please" is in your mind...Perhaps this is "reversal" and it is really the violent Islamist orientation in your mind here? The desire to treat non-Muslims as dhimmis whose every mis-step may be remedied by capital punishment at the pleasure of a Muslim? Then I can see why diplomatic immunity in this case would disturb a large part of the Pakistani populace: life doesn't conform with the hair-trigger anger they've been taught.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

You have nothing to contribute here so turn this into your rant against Muslims and off topic BS about dhimmis with your usual typical non sense...

Get a life mate...

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## Safriz

Solomon2 said:


> Once diplomatic immunity is granted it sticks to the person no matter what name they are using; it sticks like glue until after the person is declared _persona non grata_ and expelled or until his government revokes his immunity.
> 
> "Kill as you please" is your claim, not mine.
> 
> "Kill as you please" is in your mind...Perhaps this is "reversal" and it is really the violent Islamist orientation in your mind here? The *desire to treat non-Muslims as dhimmis *whose every mis-step may be remedied by capital punishment at the pleasure of a Muslim? Then I can see why diplomatic immunity in this case would disturb a large part of the Pakistani populace: life doesn't conform with the hair-trigger anger they've been taught.


 
You got no idea mate...Dhimis are the most protected type of citizens in any Islamic Caliphate where shariah is the law of the land,and they have a truck load of rights....Although they have to give a certain amount of tax for protection...

We are not discussing Islamic laws here or are we? Why mention Dhimmi?
I can understand you may be a young patriotic American who is peeved about the Davis issue,but this is not the way..

Another thing is that if you compare your media and ours,you will know who is hate mongering against whom....

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> In all probability the US mission in Pakistan would be chased out and we'll hear about how special flights had to rescue them out of Pakistan if Davis walks without a trial. Americans are underestimating the fury of the people.



Asim: May I please ask for some detail of the tangible evidence that leads you to make such a determination of probabilities of these adverse outcomes, so that I may understand your reasoning a bit better?


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## Solomon2

I don't see much point in U.S. officials venturing outside their residences or workplaces at the moment. Without effective diplomatic immunity or protection they would immediately be an attractive target for robbers and kidnappers. I suspect a great many of America's diplomats could soon be recalled for their own safety. That would make administering U.S.-Pakistan relations very difficult.

The diplomats of other countries in Pakistan are probably quite concerned right now. Clearly their own persons may also soon be at great risk. 

The Dean of the Diplomatic Corps in a country's capital is the foreign diplomat who has served the longest at ambassador rank in the country, regardless of nationality. Usually he is just a polite fixture at diplomatic functions, but he is usually the collective spokesman on such matters. I don't know who that is in Islamabad or what country he or she would be from, but has this person said anything yet?


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Asim: May I please ask for some detail of the tangible evidence that leads you to make such a determination of probabilities of these adverse outcomes, so that I may understand your reasoning a bit better?


 
That is what the protestors said they would do. Especially the families... They are giving these sort of statement daily to a mob of angry protestors on Qurtaba Chowk.

US Consulate to be besieged | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



> The families said this at a joint press briefing at Qartaba Chowk on Wednesday and demanded to charge Raymond Davis as per Anti Terrorism Act. Demanding to hang Raymond Davis, they vowed to take a protest rally to the US Consulate and besiege it.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> That is what the protestors said they would do. Especially the families... They are giving these sort of statement daily to a mob of angry protestors on Qurtaba Chowk.
> 
> US Consulate to be besieged | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


 
I see. Do you really think that a US consulate will allowed to be run over by law enforcement agencies (including the armed forces agencies) in this manner and then be able to deal with all the inevitable fallout?


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> How is what you are proposing different from suspending diplomatic immunity entirely?
> 
> I get really tired hearing stories about Pakistani diplomats, Pakistani officials, or ordinary Pakistanis and how they cannot follow the obligations they signed on to bilaterally or under international law because they are too scared of the Pakistani people's anger. Trumpeting one's own cowardice does not make an impression that you are good but weak, rather that you are weak and bad.


 
You're saying there is immunity, I'm saying there's not. Who will decide? Courts. Note, deciding immunity is not the same as putting him up on a double murder trial. That will happen after no immunity is proven.

Right now the courts are not even sure this guy is Raymond Davis. That case is going on and probably we'll know for sure on Feb 17th. You guys are just continuously harping on the mantra "Let him go, let him go, let him go". Why? Immunity has to be proven.

Even in the US, the courts have decided upon immunity whenever there has been doubt.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> I see. Do you really think that a US consulate will allowed to be run over by law enforcement agencies (including the armed forces agencies) in this manner and then be able to deal with all the inevitable fallout?


 
I don't think the Armed forces would get involved. But yes when something like that happens, the important people will get safe passage out... I didn't say they'd be beheaded on Qurtaba chowk or something, they'll be chased out.

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## Solomon2

safriz said:


> We are not discussing Islamic laws here or are we? Why mention Dhimmi?


I was speculating as to what exactly was transpiring in the mind of Muhammed.



> I can understand you may be a young patriotic American who is peeved about the Davis issue,but this is not the way..


I have to live with the fact that there are diplomats with immunity in my home town. They get to commit criminal acts from misdemeanors to felonies, probably very often with criminal intent, but without being subject to prosecution. I'm not asking Pakistanis to live under any greater burden than I have myself.



> Another thing is that if you compare your media and ours,you will know who is hate mongering against whom....


Which American newspapers do you read and TV news shows do you watch that you can suggest this?


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't think the Armed forces would get involved. But yes when something like that happens, the important people will get safe passage out... I didn't say they'd be beheaded on Qurtaba chowk or something, they'll be chased out.



Do you really think with such important implications of what you fear might happen, the armed forces will be able to remain aloof from the aftermath?


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## illuzioN

This relationship we have with Pakistan is really something eles.....

I advise Pakistan to please continue to work with us in the region


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> The desire to treat non-Muslims as dhimmis whose every mis-step may be remedied by capital punishment at the pleasure of a Muslim?


 
As opposed to the desire to kill with impunity all over the world? Why doesn't the US waive immunity? Nobody has asked for capital punishment, only put him through a trial, let the courts release him. That way a precedent would be set, whereby Americans won't be able to sneak in spies, they'll know a huge mess awaits them in Pakistan, it would act as a deterrent. Even if he is tried and released.

The trial is so much more important than the verdict.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Mr Solomon2... 

You need to stop speculating and contribute in a more decent manner here...


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> You're saying there is immunity, I'm saying there's not. Who will decide? Courts.


Courts don't decide diplomatic immunity. If this goes to a court then it isn't diplomatic immunity.



> Even in the US, the courts have decided upon immunity whenever there has been doubt.


I have never heard of this. Give me details so I can take a diplomat to court the next time he dings my car!


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Do you really think with such important implications of what you fear might happen, the armed forces will be able to remain aloof from the aftermath?


 
They didn't step in when the Long March was heading to besiege the Shahra-e-Dastoor. What will they do? Fire upon its own people?


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## JonAsad



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## Safriz

Obviously diplomats will be protected in any case..it will be shameful for the country if an embassy or occupants are harmed...But Davis is a different issue...


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> Courts don't decide diplomatic immunity. If this goes to a court then it isn't diplomatic immunity.
> 
> I have never heard of this. Give me details so I can take a diplomat to court the next time he dings my car!


 
Case against Kamal Nath: India wants Diplomatic immunity; SFJ says Indian Democracy exposed | SikhSiyasat.net &#8211; Sikh News and Multimedia.



> Attorney Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, legal adviser to the SFJ, today claimed that *the issue of diplomatic immunity was decided by the court and the US Department of State could only give its recommendation*. He further said the plaintiffs would resist and challenge any efforts by the Indian Government to get diplomatic immunity for Kamal Nath.



Tadaa...

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> As opposed to the desire to kill with impunity all over the world?
> Why doesn't the US waive immunity?


Is there any Pakistani out there willing to contest such prejudice? That's really why you want to see Davis "punished", right? As a proxy to "punish" the U.S. for its perceived transgressions? 

That is EXACTLY what diplomatic immunity is supposed to protect diplomats against. Now you know why the U.S. won't waive immunity.



> The trial is so much more important than the verdict.


Under the conventions Pakistan has signed on to, which therefore also forms part of Pakistan's own laws, any legal proceedings are going to have to take place without the presence of the immune diplomat and without him being subject to any penalty other than being declared _persona non grata_ and expelled.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> They didn't step in when the Long March was heading to besiege the Shahra-e-Dastoor. What will they do? Fire upon its own people?


 
I hope it does not come to that, but it has happened in the past, no?


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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> Under the conventions Pakistan has signed on to, which therefore also forms part of Pakistan's own laws, any legal proceedings are going to have to take place* without the presence of the immune diplomat and without him being subject* to any penalty other than being declared _persona non grata_ and expelled.


 
Thats the issue here--
Raymond Davis does not have immunity-


*Foreign Office Concludes Raymond Davis Is Not A Diplomat*

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity, it is learnt.
A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided to The News that official documents have proved that the American killer is not an accredited US diplomat but is a non-diplomatic staff of the US embassy.
The source said despite being a non-diplomatic staff, Davis was notified in January 2010 to have been enjoying diplomatic immunity, explained that the immunity offered to Davis is not absolute. The absolute immunity, it is said, is offered to only a few key members of the mission.
Davis, who is presently being probed by Punjab police following a remand given by the Lahore district court, was in possession of a diplomatic passport with a business official visa. He told police that he is serving as technical advisor in the US embassy.
The Foreign Office sources clearly say that there is a lot of difference between absolute immunity and the limited-one that is given to non-diplomatic staff like Raymond Davis.
Absolute immunity under the Geneva Convention, these sources said, is offered to selected members of any foreign mission. The limited-diplomatic immunity is given to otherwise non-entitled members of the mission but on the request of the sending country.


Foreign Office Concludes Raymond Davis Is Not A Diplomat,

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## ashok321

> The trial is so much more important than the verdict.



The trial wont see the light of the day.
GOP cant keep the yank for more.
US has all the reasons to work for thier own country`s interests - which means they want RD back home where he belongs. On the other hand Pakistan is free to persue its ow interests by setting him free and keep the status quo (PAK-US relation), or put him on trial to please the awam - and in the process loose the goodies and invite the US ire, which means cut off the flow.

Mantra for Pakistan: Better safe than sorry!


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> Is there any Pakistani out there willing to contest such prejudice? That's really why you want to see Davis "punished", right? As a proxy to "punish" the U.S. for its perceived transgressions?


I want to see him tried as a proxy to LIMIT the US's transgressions. If there is a problem with my perception, then no harm done to you right? Just don't send your so called killer diplomats to Pakistan.

You are mixing up trial with sentencing, just to position yourself a victim. It's a double murder case, don't mix up immunity from "dinging a car" to immunity from killing.



> That is EXACTLY what diplomatic immunity is supposed to protect diplomats against. No you know why the U.S. won't waive immunity.


Diplomatic immunity maybe, but in that case its accorded to high level people not IT technicians. If Manter had killed two people he could claim immunity, your tech support guy? No. This is EXACTLY why Immunity is not given to just about anybody, the people are expected not to be killers.



> Under the conventions Pakistan has signed on to, which therefore also forms part of Pakistan's own laws, any legal proceedings are going to have to take place without the presence of the immune diplomat and without him being subject to any penalty other than being declared _persona non grata_ and expelled.


 
Go read Pakistan's FO Manual, it clearly states consular staff would be given non-diplomatic status. This is the law under which the US is keeping its people in Pakistan. By entering and staying in Pakistan it is accepting that there is no immunity to consular staff.

Then go read the Vienna Conventions, where it clearly states that non-diplomatic staff would be accorded immunity in all things related to their job function "except from civil and administrative judicial procedings of the receiving state". 

Next repeating mantra, please?

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> Case against Kamal Nath: India wants Diplomatic immunity; SFJ says Indian Democracy exposed|SikhSiyasat.net  Sikh News and Multimedia.
> 
> 
> 
> Attorney Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, legal adviser to the SFJ, today claimed that the issue of diplomatic immunity was decided by the court and the US Department of State could only give its recommendation.
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard of this. It appears that Mr. Pannun is only offering his opinion of the law without citing any support from the Vienna Convention or examples of previous cases.
Click to expand...


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> I hope it does not come to that, but it has happened in the past, no?


 
Hmmmm according the piece CNN did, in which they featured Defence.pk website as well, there were numerous commentaries stating that the army would stand up against Musharraf when asked to fire upon its own people. That is where they will draw the line.

That video might be available here: 

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> Never heard of this. It appears that Mr. Pannun is only offering his opinion of the law without citing any support from the Vienna Convention or examples of previous cases.


 
It doesn't mean its not happening, Kamal Nath has already been summoned to a US court for a hearing TOMORROW:

US reviewing immunity for Kamal Nath in 1984 Sikh riots case | ummid.com

By the US's own standards a precedent already exists.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Hmmmm according the piece CNN did, in which they featured Defence.pk website as well, there were numerous commentaries stating that the army would stand up against Musharraf when asked to fire upon its own people. That is where they will draw the line.
> 
> That video might be available here:
> 
> Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com


 
With all due respect, the army leadership will likely follow a line drawn with someone's else influential input in this particular case, I suspect.


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## JonAsad

Since Davis was Members of Administrative and Technical Staff as declared by USG-- this is relevant-

Members of the administrative and technical staff of a diplomatic mission perform tasks critical to the inner workings of the embassy. Accordingly, they enjoy privileges and* immunities identical to those of diplomatic agents in respect of personal inviolability, immunity from criminal jurisdiction, and immunity from the obligation to provide evidence as witnesses .*

*Their immunity from civil jurisdiction, However, is quite different .* *Members of the administrative and technical staff enjoy immunity from civil jurisdiction only in connection with the performance of their official duties.*

This is commonly known as official acts or functional immunity and is explained in more detail in the section below addressing consular privileges and immunities. Like those of diplomatic agents, the recognized family members of administrative and technical staff enjoy the same privileges and immunities from the host countrys criminal jurisdiction as their sponsors . Since these family members have no official duties to perform, they enjoy no immunity from civil jurisdiction.

Diplomatic anD consular immunity: GuiDance for law enforcement anD JuDical authorities
----------------------------------------------------------------


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## Solomon2

Glorious Resolve said:


> The Foreign Ministry has concluded that Raymond Davis, the American killer of two Pakistanis, is a non-diplomatic staff member of the US Consulate, who was given a certain level of immunity but not absolute immunity...A reliable source in the Foreign Office confided -


This is not an official statement.


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> With all due respect, the army leadership will likely follow a line drawn with someone's else influential input in this particular case, I suspect.



Given the fact that Kayani already pressed upon Rehman Malik to investigate the matter thoroughly, it doesn't seem like they are complicit with the United States in this case.

However, if the scenario of the much talked about Egyptification does take place and centers around the American mission's activities, they will be given safe passage out of Pakistan.

I am repeating again and again, the intent (of the Pakistani people) is not to see American blood (Shumaila's statement can be excused since she is the bereaving party with a husband killed and well she's dead too now), the intent is to free Pakistan from America's grips.

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## JonAsad

The following information, drawn from a State Department chart outlining immunities afforded to foreign diplomatic personnel residing in the United States, highlights the basic differences between consular and diplomatic immunities.








Source: US Diplomacy.org


From above, any unbaised man can easily conclude--

Davis Raymond arrest was legall--
He can be tried in courts--
He is not fully immune to-- murder, self defence--


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> This is not an official statement.


 
Officially the US case is even further behind, they have yet to prove is this guy Raymond Davis. Then he is not a diplomat being tried, he's an illegal immigrant, ab initio, being tried. The case would be blown wide open.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> ......., the intent is to free Pakistan from America's grips.



That is truly a noble intent, but I fear its implementation is beyond the capabilities of the present power set up. That is the unpleasant truth I fear.


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> The following information, drawn from a State Department chart outlining immunities afforded to foreign diplomatic personnel residing in the United States, highlights the basic differences between consular and diplomatic immunities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: US Diplomacy.org
> 
> 
> From above, any unbaised man can easily conclude--
> 
> Davis Raymond arrest was legall--
> He can be tried in courts--
> He is not fully immune to-- murder, self defence--


 
Dont contradict your own sources!

Member of technical and adminstrative staff cant be prosecuted, and RD belongs to this category!


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## VelocuR

*Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also declined to meet Pakistan's foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi *

LOL

What happened to romantic times between those?

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> I want to see him tried as a proxy to LIMIT the US's transgressions.


Nice, but diplomats with immunity are immune from prosecution. If you want to put "the US's transgressions" on trial, why not organize your own mock trial with both prosecution and defense first?



> If there is a problem with my perception, then no harm done to you right? Just don't send your so called killer diplomats to Pakistan.


I have to put up with "killer diplomats" here! Diplomats who are killers and even murderers in their home countries yet who can travel to New York and D.C. to host wine and tea parties! By what right does Pakistan claim any special privileges to exempt such people?



> Go read Pakistan's FO Manual, it clearly states consular staff would be given non-diplomatic status.


Ah, I begin to get a glimmering. Don't you think it is possible some functionary in the FO granted Davis full diplomatic immunity _by mistake?_ That would explain the "reliable source" story, the relevant official is trying to cover his butt. Since diplomatic immunity is an administrative rather than a legal issue once that mistake is made Pakistan has to stick to it.


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## AstanoshKhan

*US postpones bilateral contacts until Davis freed
*
*WASHINGTON: The United States has put all bilateral contacts with Pakistan on hold until Islamabad releases an employee of the its consulate in Lahore, arrested for shooting down two men, diplomatic sources told Dawn.
*
The sources said that the dispute could affect three major events planned this year: President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to Washington, the next round of US-Pakistan strategic dialogue and trilateral talks involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United States.

Last week, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi postponed a visit to Munich, Germany, to attend an international security conference after US officials informed Islamabad that their Secretary of State Hillary Clinton might not be able to meet him because of this dispute.

But the events planned for this year are of far greater importance than the conference in Munich.

Delay in Mr Zardaris visit, planned next month, would send wrong signals around the world and would also embarrass him at home, said one diplomatic source.

Similarly, delaying the strategic dialogue would have serious implications, he added.

The sources believe that while the Americans are unlikely to postpone the trilateral talks, the US decision to postpone all bilateral contacts can put Pakistan at a great disadvantage during the negotiations.

They also want that the US Congress is currently considering budget proposals for the next fiscal year and the diplomatic row could affect $1.5 billion of annual assistance for Pakistan as well.

Last week, it seemed that the Pakistani government had made up its mind to release the American, Raymond Davis, but on Sunday the wife of one of his victims committed suicide, which further complicated the matter.

Investigations by Dawn confirm that Mr Davis worked for a private security firm before he went to Pakistan but he does have a diplomatic passport.

He submitted the same passport to the Pakistan Embassy in Washington which gave him a work, but not a diplomatic visa.

The Pakistanis stress that the US Embassy was slow in demanding diplomatic immunity for Mr Davis and was quiet on this matter for 48 hours, creating doubts about his status.

Despite such doubts, Pakistan has agreed in principle to grant diplomatic immunity to Mr Davis and send him back to the US, said a senior diplomatic source in Washington.

But the government is scared of political repercussions, particularly after the suicide, the source added.

A Pakistan diplomatic source said all sort of interactions could be affected, including US assistance to Pakistan, one of the largest non-Nato recipients of American military aid.

They tell us theyll interact with us once this issue is resolved, the source said. The controversy could even effect a $7.5-billion, five-year civilian aid package or official visits or meetings between the sometimes friends, sometimes foes.

US postpones bilateral contacts until Davis freed | newspaper | DAWN.COM


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## logic

@ solomon II 
Save us your Zionist Fascist rant.

The case is in the court.

If you want to support the suspect go protest outside the court on his next judicial hearing.


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## eagle20054



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## Solomon2

logic said:


> @ solomon II
> Save us your Zionist Fascist rant.


Don't stop there! Tell us *exactly* what in my "rant" qualifies as "Zionist" and "Fascist"!


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## ares

This not the first time diplomats(if this guy is indeed a diplomat) have been involved in illegal activities on foreign soil..Mohammed Arshad Cheema a Pakistani diplomat arrested for being involved hijacking of IC-814 and found in possession of 16 Kg of RDX had to be let go, despite massive Indian protest.

Arrested Pak diplomat linked to IC 814 hijacking - The Times of India

So indeed, if he is a diplomat ..pakistani govt will have no choice but to let him go..unless US offers to wave his diplomatic immunity.


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## W.11

so much crocodile tears, whining, crying, complsining

US is made a baby


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Dont contradict your own sources!
> 
> Member of technical and adminstrative staff cant be prosecuted, and RD belongs to this category!


 
Why dont you read how a referenced document should be read--

Member of technical and administrative staff -- Maybe arrested or Detained-- No¹-- but there are conditions-- represented by the symbol ¹.
Follow the conditions how it will be Yes--

For your ease-- 1 Reasonable constraints, however, may be applied in emergency circumstances involving self-defense, public safety or the prevention of serious criminal acts.


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## redfox

First it was UAVs hitting any targets at will in Pakistan, now an american inside Pakistan gunning down two ISI agents. Then three more americans get into a hit and run to save the first one, killing yet another Pakistani.

Are there any regards to life in Pakistan? It hard to see Pakistan resist to a counter action against this.


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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> This is not an official statement.


 
This unofficial statement lead to America putting all sorts of unofficial pressure on GoP-- bribing the victims for green card-- forcefully and illegally trying to free Raymond Davis--threatening to suspend all bilateral talks-- and what not--

This sort of statements are always made unofficially--


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## My-Analogous

End of romance?


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## DV RULES

Glorious Resolve said:


> The following information, drawn from a State Department chart outlining immunities afforded to foreign diplomatic personnel residing in the United States, highlights the basic differences between consular and diplomatic immunities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: US Diplomacy.org
> 
> 
> From above, any unbaised man can easily conclude--
> 
> Davis Raymond arrest was legall--
> He can be tried in courts--
> He is not fully immune to-- murder, self defence--




The 1963 Vienna Convention on consulate relations does not give any immunity on grave crimes like murder.

Both conventions are entirely different, one dealing with immunity to diplomatic staff while the other deals with consular staff. *Vienna Convention on Consulate relations 1963, in its article 41 clearly states that in case of grave crimes like murder there is no immunity. *

*I think it must be clear to all.*

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum

accha hi hay k american say kisi tarah jaan choot jay lol
Is it confirmed those two were ISI agents?

TARIQ


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## Solomon2

DV RULES said:


> The 1963 Vienna Convention on consulate relations does not give any immunity on grave crimes like murder.


Since Davis has full immunity the 1963 Consular Convention doesn't apply but the 1961 Diplomatic Convention.


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## fallstuff

If Mr. Davis's diplomatic credentilals were acceped by the Foreign Ministry then he has immunity, however unfair that maybe. If his activiies at the time of the shootings relates to cousular work, well then there is no case against him.


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Why dont you read how a referenced document should be read--
> 
> Member of technical and administrative staff -- Maybe arrested or Detained-- No¹-- but there are conditions-- represented by the symbol ¹.
> Follow the conditions how it will be Yes--
> 
> For your ease-- 1 Reasonable constraints, however, may be applied in emergency circumstances involving self-defense, public safety or the prevention of serious criminal acts.


 
Read my post wherein I said he can not be prosecuted - and its unconditional without any attachment!

Its simple NO!


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## Frankenstein

If Pakistani government frees Raymond Davis then probably situation will be like whats going on in Egypt, at one side Pakistani Government might lose USA and on the other side it might lose everything else

*either put him in jail forever (Pakistani Jail) or terminate him, Period*


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## Rafael

The world super power is whining like a baby for its criminal citizen. 

Talk about hypocrisy. Bloody terrorists!


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## Rafael

If US is willing to put off a relationship with Pakistan just because we are refusing to hand over an American terrorist to them and want him to try in our courts, than so be it! We don't need your sh*t . Go fu*k yourselves.


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## W.11

solomon2 is crying for this guy because he is a jew


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Read my post wherein I said he can not be prosecuted - and its unconditional without any attachment!
> 
> Its simple NO!


 
Read my posts again, which i have backed with credible sources-- he can be prosecuted by law-- for your statements back it up or it will be just a RANT!!!


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## Mirza Jatt

I think..its not an issue for which the ties between US and Pakistan will get effected...but since the issue has got really hyped among the public, it will be interesting to see how the story ends up

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## American Pakistani

How will Zardari meet his new wife now????? & his GF SP


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## ashok321

raheel1 said:


> The world super power is whining like a baby for its criminal citizen.
> 
> Talk about hypocrisy. Bloody terrorists!


 

Replace the word world super power with Pakistan and what you find?

Aafia Siduiqi!!

Did not Pakistan cry for above lady?

Whose hypocricy now?


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Read my posts again, which i have backed with credible sources-- he can be prosecuted by law-- for your statements back it up or it will be just a RANT!!!


 

*Second position - that of technical n adminstrative staff says he can not be prosecuted - by your own source!*

*Its a clear cut NO - as per your source!*

The omlette is done - dont flip it one more time!


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## AstanoshKhan

The previous Long March was successful just because Army/ISI were backing it up as per say of the anchor.

Imran is looking for a tunisian kind of revolution lead by his party. Will he be able to bring people on roads? Imran himself is so sure about it. Let's see how it goes.


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> *Second position - that of technical n adminstrative staff says he can not be prosecuted - by your own source!*
> 
> *Its a clear cut NO - as per your source!*
> 
> The omlette is done - dont flip it one more time!


 
You got some comprehension problem or what? Cant you read? As i have said it before-- showed you before-- Read again what is written there-- Your RANT is not making any sense-- He can be arrested, he can be brought in front of court-- he is not immune to murder charges-- i have backed what i have said with references-- you stop Ranting-- like a stubborn child--


This is what i have said before--


> Why dont you read how a referenced document should be read--
> 
> *Member of technical and administrative staff -- Maybe arrested or Detained-- No¹-- but there are conditions-- represented by the symbol ¹.
> Follow the conditions how it will be Yes--
> 
> For your ease-- 1 Reasonable constraints, however, may be applied in emergency circumstances involving self-defense, public safety or the prevention of serious criminal acts*.



only a fool cannot comprehend that!!
Dont cherry Pick, Focus on the bolded part, Read it fully-

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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> You got some comprehension problem or what? Cant you read? As i have said it before-- showed you before-- Read again what is written there-- Your RANT is not making any sense-- He can be arrested, he can be brought in front of court-- he is not immune to murder charges-- i have backed what i have said with references-- you stop Ranting-- like a stubborn child--
> 
> 
> This is what i have said before--
> 
> 
> only a fool cannot comprehend that!!
> Dont cherry Pick, Focus on the bolded part, Read it fully-


 
No¹-

There is no such numeric citation when it says clean cut NO in the second category (technical n adminstrative) - *when it comes to prosecution* - it says clean cut *NO* - see for yourself!

You are becoming tamasha here.....

*Prosecution column is free from citation dude...*


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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> Since Davis has full immunity the 1963 Consular Convention doesn't apply but the 1961 Diplomatic Convention.


 
You saying it doesn't mean its true--
He does not have full immunity-- see the table highlighting the basic differences between consular and diplomatic immunities.


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## nescafe

Dear Jana,

here is the detail of all the CSF/ESF received as yet. is it verifyable.

pakaid

copied from link,

Grand total : 18,605 million (18.6 billion $ as per 2010)

now, i have alll the paper clipping to prove it.

ps: please do not delete the post as it is nothing but the truth.

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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> No¹-
> 
> There is no such numeric citation when it says clean cut NO in the second category (technical n adminstrative) - *when it comes to prosecution* - it says clean cut *NO* - see for yourself!
> 
> You are becoming tamasha here.....


 
Lol... technical and administrative staff is not immune to grave crimes like murder-- Vienna Convention on Consulate relations 1963--

Do not further embarrass yourself please.


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## Solomon2

Glorious Resolve said:


> see the table highlighting the basic differences between consular and diplomatic immunities.


The chart is a guideline. What matters is what immunity was granted the offending diplomat, not his function. The U.S. claims it was diplomatic, not consular, and I can't find any record that the government of Pakistan has _officially_ denied the U.S. claim.

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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Lol... technical and administrative staff is not immune to grave crimes like murder-- Vienna Convention on Consulate relations 1963--
> 
> Do not further embarrass yourself please.


 
Its yr link which says they can not be prosecuted............
Sink your eyeballs again!
Every PDF member is a Jury here!

Be careeful!
You are about to be convicted on false pretense!!!



> MEMBER OF ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF	NO 1	NO	YES	NO	NO	SAME AS SPONSOR (FULL IMMUNITY AND INVIOLABILITY


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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> The chart is a guideline. What matters is what immunity was granted the offending diplomat, not his function. The U.S. claims it was diplomatic, not consular, and I can't find any record that the government of Pakistan has _officially_ denied the U.S. claim.


 
GoP has not even accepted the US claim-- GoP said the matter will be decided by the courts-- how hard could it be for the foreighn office to verify his diplomatic immunity-- none existed -- so the dispute-

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## American Eagle

US Dept. of State and career US Ambassador to Pakistan know diplomatic immunity International laws and treaties at bit better than self-defining know-it-alls on this site. Things will be properly resolved as YES, Raymond Allen Davis does have diplomatic immunity and he will be permanently removed from Pakistan.

Next issue thereafter is winning the war on terrorism inside Pakistan.


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Its yr link which says they can not be prosecuted............
> Sink your eyeballs again!
> Every PDF member is a Jury here!
> 
> Be careeful!
> You are about to be convicted on false pretense!!!


 
Its not the matter of scoring cheap points Mr--
Once a diplomat is arrested-- Acc to Vienna convention-- he can be prosecuted-- 

My source is some thing on which my points of
views are based-- its my links that have said, Raymond Davis can be legally arrested-- did you accept that? -To start with-

Condition- No-- with a citation

If No Go to Step B
If Yes Go to step C

Apparently you have no idea, what that means--


----------



## LeGenD

Stumper said:


> First, i dont suppose you are being threatened with Sanctions. Second, no one need use the Davis case as a excuse for stopping economic aid. By going back on your words to implement IMF recommendations , you are already on that radar irrespective of the Davis case.


Did I claimed that we were threatened with sanctions due to case of Davis? 

However, following reports skipped your notice:

Continued detention of Davis may hurt defence ties, warns US | newspaper | DAWN.COM

US threatens to cut off all aid

US ups pressure on Pakistan over detained American - Yahoo! News

Believe it or not! The case of Davis is a like a litmus test for Pak-US diplomatic relationship. He is not some ordinary guy. 

And if the option of sanctions are also on the table; Then the case of Davis will give US additional excuse to use this option against us.



Stumper said:


> Instead, let the court of Law decide on Mr.Davis. Let the aid continue till the time you implement the reforms. Remember, you have a very big debt and a threat of hyper inflation due to currency devaluation.


Am I stopping court proceedings or did I raised my voice against this matter? Problem is that Americans are not willing to accept this course of action. 

And YES! I do have some grasp of economic situation in Pakistan. I do not need an Indian to lecture me on this. What factors are responsible for this dire economic condition? I already have mentioned a few. Though, I can repeat them for you:


Corruption
Incompetence (at GOP level specially)
Mismanagement
WOT
Natural disasters
While one can argue that last two factors were not in Pak control but what about the top three?



Stumper said:


> Your citizens and political parties dont support you government.. Why ... the other day PPP called back the fuel hike under the pressure. I always wonder why dont your people stand behind your government instead of criticizing it at every decision.


Some sectors in Pakistan are unable to cope with high inflation. This is why they are protesting. Keep in mind that every Pakistani is not a billionaire. The rival political parties have an excuse to criticize the existing GOP. I doubt that any single one of them would fare better than existing GOP under existing turbulent conditions, if given the responsibility. And most of them are as much corrupt as PPPP, if not more.

Why GOP finds it difficult to carry out IMF recommendations in present times? The answer is that it never did proper homework on devastating impact of CORRUPTION on economy and living standard of common man in Pakistan. This also applies to other major political parties of Pakistan, who have equal share in putting Pakistan on the brink. 

The former COAS, Musharraf also contributed to this menace. Some people became millionaires overnight during his tenure. And he hired highly corrupt politicians to do his bidding. Guys like Moonis Elahi are product of his works.

*FACT:* Pakistan is now counted among the most corrupt nations of the world.



Stumper said:


> Why do you compare Pakistan with this nations. This countries faced economic blockade. You are not in same league as this rouge countries. Just implement the IMF recommendations, which are in fact pragmatic. Cut off all sick PSU's. Reduce the salaries of your minister's. Reduce working hours for public servants. Cut off subsidies. Ask the rich to pay more tax's. There us a lot you can do to continue the IMF aid.


These countries were not rouge. Iraq, Iran, and DPRK have been 'intentionally' treated as rogue states by USA. While Iraq has been dealt with, the other two nations are on the hit list of USA. If US-Pakistan ties severly deteriorate, then Pakistan will find itself in the same path as these nations. 

And remaining acts are responsibility of ruling elite and its collaborators. I am not against any helpful reforms.

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## logic

American Eagle said:


> US Dept. of State and career US Ambassador to Pakistan know diplomatic immunity International laws and treaties at bit better than self-defining know-it-alls on this site. Things will be properly resolved as YES, Raymond Allen Davis does have diplomatic immunity and he will be permanently removed from Pakistan.


Ignorance is bliss. 
The subject is in judicial custody. The matter will be decided by the courts.


> Next issue thereafter is winning the war on terrorism inside Pakistan.


Not related to the thread so i will not feed ur troll


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## Areesh

American Eagle said:


> US Dept. of State and career US Ambassador to Pakistan know diplomatic immunity International laws and treaties at bit better than self-defining know-it-alls on this site. Things will be properly resolved as YES, Raymond Allen Davis does have diplomatic immunity and he will be permanently removed from Pakistan.
> 
> Next issue thereafter is winning the war on terrorism inside Pakistan.



Yeah definitely after removing this mercenary from Pakistan you would surely win the war on terror inside Pakistan. You have already made a significant progress by beating India as the most disliked and hated country inside Pakistan. Keep it up, I can see you "winning" this so called War on terror.

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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Its not the matter of scoring cheap points Mr--
> Once a diplomat is arrested-- Acc to Vienna convention-- he can be prosecuted--
> 
> My source is some thing on which my points of
> views are based-- its my links that have said, Raymond Davis can be legally arrested-- did you accept that? -To start with-
> 
> Condition- No-- with a citation
> 
> If No Go to Step B
> If Yes Go to step C
> 
> Apparently you have no idea, what that means--


 
I have all along said - as per yr source - ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF can not be prosecuted!!

Do you have problem with that?


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## Solomon2

Glorious Resolve said:


> GoP has not even accepted the US claim-- GoP said the matter will be decided by the courts--


Whether immunity is diplomatic or consular is not a matter decided by a country's courts. It is an administrative arrangement between two nations.

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## khanz

excellent it's about time pakistan grew some balls davis should be left to rot in a pakistani prison and america should be told to go shove their aid up their .


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## Imran Khan

i look from starting one by one Indian come defend Davis and go like there duty Schedule heheheeheheheheh chal main ne sawab kama liya ab tu kama jesy.ahhaahah

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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> I have all along said - as per yr source - ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF can not be prosecuted!!
> 
> Do you have problem with that?


 
Yes i have a problem with that-- ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF can be prosecuted as per my sources--

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## Areesh

By they way thanks to this incident I can see two extremes of Pakistani society making a consensus on this issue. Both the Mullahs and the Liberals seem to be on the same page on this issue. 

We can at least thanks USA for this integration in the Pakistani society.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

ashok321 said:


> I have all along said - as per yr source - ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF can not be prosecuted!!
> 
> Do you have problem with that?


 
u don,t know the complete truth, his identity is still under doubt. other thing it,s highest form of crime, killing 3 peoples. come on be a bit realistic. just imagin same incident with Hussain haqani, what would have been the reaction by american legisilatives.


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## Solomon2

khanz said:


> excellent it's about time pakistan grew some balls davis should be left to rot in a pakistani prison and america should be told to go shove their aid up their .


And how much are _you_ willing to pay in taxes to make up for lost U.S. aid and international loans?

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

indians indians indian .......... so jealous and filled with prejudice.......... sorry to say but very much reality.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

if it would be some other kind of crime he would have been acquitted but it is terrorism.

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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> Whether immunity is diplomatic or consular is not a matter decided by a country's courts. It is an administrative arrangement between two nations.


 
and if matter of immunity is complicated-- courts decide that--
and If the immunity is consular-- then again he can be prosecuted--

As Government officials have rightly said to the visiting US delegation-- The courts will have the final say in this--

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Areesh said:


> By they way thanks to this incident I can see two extremes of Pakistani society making a consensus on this issue. Both the Mullahs and the Liberals seem to be on the same page on this issue.
> 
> We can at least thanks USA for this integration in the Pakistani society.


 
well you are very much true. this incident has shaken our whole society and behavior shown by american government has infuriated many among us. it shows how much cheap our blood is in their eyes.

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## rubyjackass

Solomon2 said:


> Whether immunity is diplomatic or consular is not a matter decided by a country's courts. It is an administrative arrangement between two nations.


 But no politician wants his hand seen behind Davis' release and hence this mess. Only courts can release him now. Then pakistani politicians can show people that a genie took away Davis back to US.

AFAIK Davis seems to have immunity under international law. Ardeshir Cowasjee also agrees with such assessment. Immunity to diplomats is complete. If diplomats mess up, the host can by law only deport him and warn the sending country. And the situation would be like sending country is supposed to apologize and ensure nothing gets repeated. But here this situation can happen only in Pakistan. I mean now Pak is feeling the pressure from US 
http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/06/a-diplomatic-tangle.html


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

rubyjackass said:


> But no politician wants his hand seen behind Davis' release and hence this mess. Only courts can release him now. Then pakistani politicians can show people that a genie took away Davis back to US.
> 
> AFAIK Davis seems to have immunity under international law. Ardeshir Cowasjee also agrees with such assessment. Immunity to diplomats is complete. If diplomats mess up, the host can by law only deport him and warn the sending country. And the situation would be like sending country is supposed to apologize and ensure nothing gets repeated. But here this situation can happen only in Pakistan. I mean now Pak is feeling the pressure from US


 
i don,t think so our nation will let him run so easily.........


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## JonAsad

rubyjackass said:


> But no politician wants his hand seen behind Davis' release and hence this mess. Only courts can release him now. Then pakistani politicians can show people that a genie took away Davis back to US.
> 
> A*FAIK Davis seems to have immunity under international law. *Ardeshir Cowasjee also agrees with such assessment. Immunity to diplomats is complete. If diplomats mess up, the host can by law only deport him and warn the sending country. And the situation would be like sending country is supposed to apologize and ensure nothing gets repeated. But here this situation can happen only in Pakistan. I mean now Pak is feeling the pressure from US
> A diplomatic tangle | | DAWN.COM


 
Quick question before i can comment further--
Tell me how a technical and administrative staff member can have full diplomatic immunity? back it up--

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## Abu Zolfiqar

3 people are dead; an un-authorized foreigner was carrying and operating firearms in the host country

if Pakistan is in dereliction of international laws, so be it. Davis should NOT leave the country without the courts --the concerned (Pakistani) courts reaching a verdict on what to do with this twit.

and in the meantime, Pakistanis should look in the mirror and stop treating this murder as any different than other shootings; like when brothers kill other brothers in Karachi, Sialkot or elsewhere.


introspect!

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## ares

US govt is on the record claiming that Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity..now either Pakistani foreign office should either come out and contradict US govt in unequivocal terms or continued arrest of Raymond Davis is in illegal action on Pakistan's behalf.

But please do not take it upon yourself to interpret the international law...leave it to the experts.

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## Skywalker

Solomon2 said:


> And how much are _you_ willing to pay in taxes to make up for lost U.S. aid and international loans?


 
And same old yankee looser is back to support his terrorist countryman...shame on you.

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## JonAsad

ares said:


> US govt is on the record claiming that Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity..now either Pakistani foreign office should either come out and contradict US govt in unequivocal terms or continued arrest of Raymond Davis is in illegal action on Pakistan's behalf.
> 
> But please do not take it upon yourself to interpret the international law...leave it to the experts.


 
Ask US to show his immunity-- they definately got to have some official papers--

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## rubyjackass

Glorious Resolve said:


> Quick question before i can comment further--
> Tell me how a technical and administrative staff member can have full diplomatic immunity? back it up--


 
My point is that he has a diplomatic passport. If US wishes, in the worst case, they can create documents any time fulfilling the requirements for immunity. And they publicly insist that he has complete immunity. They went all in with their cards. So this means he will get immunity now if not already. Besides Davis seemed to be an important person for USA too.


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yes i have a problem with that-- ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF can be prosecuted as per my sources--


 
So why YOUR OWN LINK says - *NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!*


ATEGORY	MAY BE ARRESTED OR DETAINED	RESIDENCE MAY BE ENTERED SUBJECT TO ORDINARY PROCEDURES	MAY BE ISSUED TRAFFIC CITATION	MAY BE SUBPOENAED AS WITNESS	MAY BE PROSECUTED	RECOGNIZED FAMILY MEMBER
DIPLOMATIC
DIPLOMATIC AGENT	NO 1	NO	YES	NO	NO	SAME AS SPONSOR (FULL IMMUNITY AND INVIOLABILITY)
MEMBER OF ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF	NO 1	NO	YES	NO	*NO* SAME AS SPONSOR (FULL IMMUNITY AND INVIOLABILITY




> Q: Are foreign diplomats immune from prosecution for crimes they commit in the US?
> A: Diplomats are not subject to prosecution for crimes they commit in the country in which they are stationed. This is the general rule followed by most countries in the world, not just the US. The country in which the crime is committed is usually limited to ordering the offending diplomat to leave the country.


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## Solomon2

Glorious Resolve said:


> The courts will have the final say in this--


No, SIR! The issue was decided when Davis' credentials were accepted (Article 39) and all business regarding him is a matter for the Foreign Office. His immunity is never prejudiced and a Pakistani court has no jurisdiction over his person. He can't legally be held in prison.

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## ares

Glorious Resolve said:


> Ask US to show his immunity-- they definately got to have some official papers--


 
As immunity is provided by the host state ..it is their responsibility to prove that the said person does/does not have immunity.
All US embassy can do is claim diplomatic immunity from the Pakistani govt for the said person..which they already did on the second day of the incident.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> No, SIR! The issue was decided when Davis' credentials were accepted (Article 39) and all business regarding him is a matter for the Foreign Office. His immunity is never prejudiced and a Pakistani court has no jurisdiction over his person. He can't legally be held in prison.


 
he gave up his legal rights when he carried and operated (on his person) a firearm which he was unauthorized to be using.......the other 'suspects' (who are still at large, thanks to the non-cooperation of the Ally country) enaged in hit & run --which killed a civilian.


you have a lot of nerve


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## Imran Khan



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## JonAsad

rubyjackass said:


> My point is that he has a diplomatic passport. If US wishes, in the worst case, they can create documents any time fulfilling the requirements for immunity. And they publicly insist that he has complete immunity. They went all in with their cards. So this means he will get immunity now if not already. Besides Davis seemed to be an important person for USA too.



Of course David have immunity-- but as a member of technical and administrative staff-- he is not immune to murder-- thats a fact-- US cannot fake papers which will negate Vienna convention--giving him full immunity-- sorry cant happen--


Pakistan foreign office grants immunity-- if US does fake it-- the matter will go to court again-- in the end Pakistani court has the final say in this fiasco--

and the threatening behavior USA has resort to -- further proves his non immune status--


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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> he gave up his legal rights when he carried and operated (on his person) a firearm which he was unauthorized to be using.......the other 'suspects' (who are still at large, thanks to the non-cooperation of the Ally country) enaged in hit & run --which killed a civilian.
> 
> 
> you have a lot of nerve


 
Pakistani Diplomat to Nepal was caught with 16 KG of RDX.. but that did not prevent Pakistan from claiming diplomatic immunity for him, so why the hypocrisy?


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## illuzioN

why do pakistan people hate us so much?


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## Imran Khan

GOOD NEWS please now take your diplomatic mission from pakistan and kick haqani's @ss from there


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## aakash_2410

Solomon2 said:


> And how much are _you_ willing to pay in taxes to make up for lost U.S. aid and international loans?


 
And all those unconditional loans?


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## Solomon2

aakash_2410 said:


> And all those unconditional loans?


Without diplomats, how are these supposed to be administered?

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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> So why YOUR OWN LINK says - *NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!*
> 
> 
> ATEGORY	MAY BE ARRESTED OR DETAINED	RESIDENCE MAY BE ENTERED SUBJECT TO ORDINARY PROCEDURES	MAY BE ISSUED TRAFFIC CITATION	MAY BE SUBPOENAED AS WITNESS	MAY BE PROSECUTED	RECOGNIZED FAMILY MEMBER
> DIPLOMATIC
> DIPLOMATIC AGENT	NO 1	NO	YES	NO	NO	SAME AS SPONSOR (FULL IMMUNITY AND INVIOLABILITY)
> MEMBER OF ADMINISTRATIVE & TECHNICAL STAFF	NO 1	NO	YES	NO	*NO* SAME AS SPONSOR (FULL IMMUNITY AND INVIOLABILITY


 
Lol- you got some serious issue-- comprehension issues--

and dont copy paste yahoo answers-- not gona work here--


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## Imran Khan

illuzioN said:


> why do pakistan people hate us so much?


 
because USA is killer of Pakistanis and still going on . USA is first enemy of Pakistan and its public. still USA barking on release a killer of three innocents . i from my heart hope USA close his mission we dont want diplomatic relations with USA.even we sleep hungry .


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Lol- you got some serious issue-- comprehension issues--
> 
> and dont copy paste yahoo answers-- not gona work here--


 
This is part of yr OWN link senior!
Its no Yahoo stuff...
A Brief History of U.S. Diplomacy

And here as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#cite_ref-table1_37-1


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## Imran Khan

Solomon2 said:


> Without diplomats, how are these supposed to be administered?


 
if these are your diplomats which carry tons of waipons and kill people on the way.go to hell USA and diplomacy with usa. shame on pakistan look iran USA has no relations with them so no black water cia killings drones there.cut diplomatic relations with USA aka mad dog nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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## aakash_2410

Solomon2 said:


> Without diplomats, how are these supposed to be administered?


 
Hmm. True. But you guys have gave so much aids. :\ $1.5 billion [that's like 10 F-35s every year.] without any strings attached. And this is just aid not even soft loans with 0% interest


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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> he gave up his legal rights when he -


No. There is really no need to continue to the end of your sentence, just read this one:


> Article 41: Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State.


And Pakistan signed and ratified this convention. So Davis never gave up his legal rights. He can't do that even if he wants to. It isn't up to him. If he failed in his duty that is a matter between the U.S. and Pakistan and his person is inviolate.

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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> No, SIR! The issue was decided when Davis' credentials were accepted (Article 39) and all business regarding him is a matter for the Foreign Office. His immunity is never prejudiced and a Pakistani court has no jurisdiction over his person. He can't legally be held in prison.


 
Well according to level of his diplomatic status-- he can be arrested and according to Vienna convention he can be prosecuted by the courts.
Pakistani courts came into play as soon as USG said he is a member of technical and administrative staff-- His immunity level was established-- and he was booked for double murder-- not only murder-- for fake license plates-- for carrying an illegal fire arm-- and now entering the country one fake diplomatic visa with a fake name--

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## Imran Khan

aakash_2410 said:


> And all those unconditional loans?


 
now tell me how we living from 1989 to 2001? that was better life or after focking aid and WOT time now?god damn million time we repeate pakistani public may got 5% of this aid all go to corruption and military hardware


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## Imran Khan

aakash_2410 said:


> And all those unconditional loans?


 
now tell me how we living from 1989 to 2001? that was better life or after focking aid and WOT time now?god damn million time we repeate pakistani public may got 5% of this aid all go to corruption and military hardware


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## Imran Khan

aakash_2410 said:


> Hmm. True. But you guys have gave so much aids. :\ $1.5 billion [that's like 10 F-35s every year.] without any strings attached. And this is just aid not even soft loans with 0% interest


 
enemy remains enemy even we are there nighburs and a US mad dog kill our citizens with cold blood.TUM LOGO KO LAGGA NHI ATI?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

ares said:


> Pakistani Diplomat to Nepal was caught with 16 KG of RDX.. but that did not prevent Pakistan from claiming diplomatic immunity for him, so why the hypocrisy?


 
and i wasnt standing in line, calling for him to be released

in all honesty, i have little info about that case. Pakistanis claim that the explosives were planted by indian who wanted to disturb the relations. Wouldnt surprise me, but again, all speculation.

being in possesion of such things would be 'troubling' but no actual crime involving those materials took place by Pakistani officials; whereas in this case, a chain of events led to 3 dead Pakistanis at the hands of 'guests' who are forbidden to carry arms (fake registered cars, etc.)

hit and run is also a felony, incidentally...especially when it involves vehicular manslaughter


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## Solomon2

Glorious Resolve said:


> Pakistani courts came into play as soon as USG said he is a member of technical and administrative staff-- His immunity level was established--


No. Diplomatic immunity is attached to the person, not his function. Nobody will deny that Davis has diplomatic immunity, therefore under the 1961 Convention he can't be legally held by the police or imprisoned. 

I wonder what the penalty is in Pakistani law for unlawful imprisonment? That Lahore judge, Chaudhry, is an obvious candidate for impeachment, attainder, or however one removes obviously wrong-in-the-law judges in Pakistan. Can he and the irresponsible officers obeying him be prosecuted as well?


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> This is part of yr OWN link senior!
> Its no Yahoo stuff...
> A Brief History of U.S. Diplomacy
> 
> And here as well:
> 
> Diplomatic immunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
start posting links-- for starter-- no links-- i might take it as Ask Men question answers session with no credibility at all--

Let me repeat-- he can be prosecuted under Vienna convention article 41(why cant you just read it- say for the argument sake-- try googling)-- since he has committed murder-- he is not immune to that--

and for your information-- data on Wikipedia can be changed by any user--so it is not reliable-- try harder junior--


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> Pakistan signed and ratified this convention. So Davis never gave up his legal rights. He can't do that even if he wants to. It isn't up to him. If he failed in his duty that is a matter between the U.S. and Pakistan and his person is inviolate.


 
refer to post #2007

in fact, US promised cooperation on this matter, but we are yet to find out the wherabouts of the occupants of the Land Cruiser which killed a pedestrian (while driving rashly on the wrong side of the rode and endangering the public)


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> start posting links-- for starter-- no links-- i might take it as Ask Men question answers session with no credibility at all--
> 
> Let me repeat-- he can be prosecuted under Vienna convention article 41(why cant you just read it- say for the argument sake-- try googling)-- since he has committed murder-- he is not immune to that--
> 
> and for your information-- data on Wikipedia can be changed by any user--so it is not reliable-- try harder junior--


 
One more:

Legal Aspects of Diplomatic Immunity and Privileges

And thats your given table again without mincing words bablu...


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## JonAsad

ares said:


> Pakistani Diplomat to Nepal was caught with 16 KG of RDX.. but that did not prevent Pakistan from claiming diplomatic immunity for him, so why the hypocrisy?


 
He had full diplomatic immunity-- so he was rightly deported--
Raymond Davis does not have full immunity-- he will be prosecuted--


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## Siddiqui A

ashok321 said:


> No¹-
> 
> There is no such numeric citation when it says clean cut NO in the second category (technical n adminstrative) - *when it comes to prosecution* - it says clean cut *NO* - see for yourself!
> 
> You are becoming tamasha here.....
> 
> *Prosecution column is free from citation dude...*


 
freakin INDIAN go find sumthing better to do...poke ur nose in ur own A**....bullshitteer

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## rubyjackass

Glorious Resolve said:


> Of course David have immunity-- but as a member of technical and administrative staff-- he is not immune to murder-- thats a fact-- US cannot fake papers which will negate Vienna convention--giving him full immunity-- sorry cant happen--
> 
> 
> Pakistan foreign office grants immunity-- if US does fake it-- the matter will go to court again-- in the end Pakistani court has the final say in this fiasco--
> 
> and the threatening behavior USA has resort to -- further proves his non immune status--





> 2.Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of
> their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or
> 12
> permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29
> to 35,


It seems he will have immunity even as administrative and technical staff if he is diplomatic staff and not part of consular staff. But that I believe is upto the agreement between the states and not necessarily the on paper definition of consul and diplomatic agent.


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## JonAsad

Solomon2 said:


> No. Diplomatic immunity is attached to the person, not his function. Nobody will deny that Davis has diplomatic immunity, therefore under the 1961 Convention he can't be legally held by the police or imprisoned.



You should look it under the 1963 convention-- you will learn that his imprisonment is legal and justified.
The level of immunity apply to his function-- not person--



Solomon2 said:


> I wonder what the penalty is in Pakistani law for unlawful imprisonment? That Lahore judge, Chaudhry, is an obvious candidate for impeachment, attainder, or however one removes obviously wrong-in-the-law judges in Pakistan. Can he and the irresponsible officers obeying him be prosecuted as well?


 
every thing is done legally- so no penalty to Chaudhry et al.


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## VelocuR

My sincer advice to Glorious Resolve. *Please use Ignore list*. 

Wait for court order, that's it.

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## ares

...................


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## ares

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and i wasnt standing in line, calling for him to be released



It is easy to say that now since he was sent back to pakistan without being prosecuted...but at least use the same yardstick to measure similar actions. 



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> in all honesty, i have little info about that case. Pakistanis claim that the explosives were planted by indian who wanted to disturb the relations. Wouldnt surprise me, but again, all speculation.
> 
> being in possesion of such things would be 'troubling' but no actual crime involving those materials took place by Pakistani officials; whereas in this case, a chain of events led to 3 dead Pakistanis at the hands of 'guests' who are forbidden to carry arms (fake registered cars, etc.)
> 
> hit and run is also a felony, incidentally...especially when it involves vehicular manslaughter


 
The actually crime did take place, IC-814 ..because it is said Arshad Cheema is said to have met the hijackers at Tribhuvan airport and supplied the explosives..but nothing could proved against as the said defendant enjoyed diplomatic immunity and was not prosecuted.

Incidentally same will be the case if Pakistani govt grants Raymond Davis has claimed immunity , there will no way to prove if his actions were in self defence or were part conspiracy to murder.


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## JonAsad

rubyjackass said:


> It seems he will have immunity even as administrative and technical staff if he is diplomatic staff and not part of consular staff.


 
and what about 1963 Vienna convention article 41?


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> One more:
> 
> Legal Aspects of Diplomatic Immunity and Privileges
> 
> And thats your given table again without mincing words bablu...


 
Yes the table is there-- so what?


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## rubyjackass

I believe is upto the agreement between the states and not necessarily the on paper definition of consul and diplomatic agent.

Edit:

Besides if you see the table given. At the bottom, tagged to Consular Employees for May be arrested or detained is this clause.

2This table presents general rules. Particularly in the cases indicated, the employees of certain foreign countries may enjoy higher levels of privileges and immunities on the basis of special bilateral agreements.


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## EagleEyes

^ I think it largely has to do with the bossy attitude instead of friendly suggestions/requests.


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yes the table is there-- so what?


 
Thats where it says in the second last column:

May be prosecuted....

And beneath it says no....


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yes the table is there-- so what?


 
Thats where it says in the second last column:

May be prosecuted....

And beneath it says no....


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Thats where it says in the second last column:
> 
> May be prosecuted....
> 
> And beneath it says no....


 
and what does it say on page 17-- article 41 & 42-- 

Vienna Convention on Consular Relations- 1963

-

Read--


> Article 41
> Personal inviolability of consular of icers
> 1. Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
> grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.
> 2. Except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, consular officers shall not be
> committed to prison or be liable to any other form of restriction on their personal freedom save in
> execution of a judicial decision of final effect.
> 3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the
> competent authorities. Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by
> reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner
> which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. When, in the circumstances
> mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the
> proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay




and then read Article 42 for prosecution--



> Article 42
> Notification of arrest, detention or *prosecution*
> In the event of the arrest or detention,* pending trial*, of a member of the consular staff, or of
> criminal proceedings being instituted against him, the receiving State shall promptly notify the head of
> the consular post. Should the latter be himself the object of any such measure, the receiving State shall
> notify the sending State through the diplomatic channe



This is the last time i am spoon feeding you-- Chao

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## xenia

Solomon2 said:


> And how much are _you_ willing to pay in taxes to make up for lost U.S. aid and international loans?


 
thats the usual pathetic american attitude!!
"poor" americans living in US shouldnt have access to justice by ur logic..

besides that now US deserves some face-saving..after all dint we close the supply lines?


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> and what does it say on page 17-- article 41 & 42--
> 
> Vienna Convention on Consular Relations
> 
> -
> 
> Read--
> 
> 
> 
> and then read Article 42 for prosecution--
> 
> 
> 
> This is the last time i am spoon feeding you-- Chao


 
Its clear that no numerical or astersk sign attached to the reply which is simple *NO*

Number one is applicable for arrest which is clear cut - but for prosecution it says no, it can not be proscuted without any restrictions or attachments - there are no ryders.


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> and what does it say on page 17-- article 41 & 42--
> 
> Vienna Convention on Consular Relations
> 
> -
> 
> Read--
> 
> 
> 
> and then read Article 42 for prosecution--
> 
> 
> 
> This is the last time i am spoon feeding you-- Chao


 
Its clear that no numerical or astersk sign attached to the reply which is simple *NO*

Number one is applicable for arrest which is clear cut - but for prosecution it says no, it can not be proscuted without any restrictions or attachments - there are no ryders.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/20047.pdf


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> Its clear that no numerical or astersk sign attached to the reply which is simple *NO*
> 
> Number one is applicable for arrest which is clear cut - but for prosecution it says no, it can not be proscuted without any restrictions or attachments - there are no ryders.
> 
> http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/20047.pdf


 
You do know what Vienna convention 1963 is? and what article 41 & 42 says? 42 specifically talks about prosecution? You are so naive to negate that--

The forum members are audience to your foolishness and childish stubborn negating the fact attitude--

Good Luck


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## ashok321

Glorious Resolve said:


> You do know what Vienna convention 1963 is? and what article 41 & 42 says? 42 specifically talks about prosecution? You are so naive to negate that--
> 
> The forum members are audience to your foolishness and childish stubborn negating the fact attitude--
> 
> Good Luck


 
I am not talking about vienna convention, you are tweaking your original statement which denied my assertion - based on yr link - which says there can be no prosecution.

Period.

And GOP wont be able to prosecute RD!

I bet my horse my home.

Writing is on the wall!


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## P.kid

Funny that if this were to happen in America and the person who shot the innocent people was Pakistani/Asian origin then what would happen? Doesnt take a genius to figure that out.


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## VCheng

So how may of those posting in so definitive a manner are actually qualified experts in international law and diplomacy, both overt and covert?

I am asking this to see what weight, if any, should be given to these endlessly circular posts?


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## xenia

ashok321 said:


> Its clear that no numerical or astersk sign attached to the reply which is simple *NO*
> 
> Number one is applicable for arrest which is clear cut - but for prosecution it says no, it can not be proscuted without any restrictions or attachments - there are no ryders.
> 
> http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/20047.pdf


 


> Article 41
> Personal inviolability of consular officers
> *1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
> grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority*



i guess even this statemnt is enough to negate his diplomatic immunity...the crime is grave ofcourse n the judicial authoruty is competive as per country standards

one thing, i assumed hez from diplomatic staff n thats actually not the case..if in such a situation immunity is given, the host country eclares the person "persona non grata" n thats somehow the end of a good career coz dont expect any good post once u r declred so..no "respected" country accepts such staff

secondly hez a worker of embassy in simple words..the diplomats n sounsellors are only "career civil service official", not hired by private agencies!

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## xenia

double post!!


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## ashok321

> Under the 1961 Vienna Convention, foreign officials, their spouses, children and staff are protected from prosecution in their host country. As a result, embassy staff accused of serious offences can be charged only if their government agrees to waive their diplomatic immunity.




Here is more for the record....


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## ashok321

Diplomatic Immunity
The Guidance must be followed in all cases where

(a) a person has diplomatic immunity

(b) claims to have diplomatic immunity

(c) is believed to have diplomatic immunity

In all such cases as (a), (b) or (c) above the police officer will submit a report to the DPG, and a copy is forwarded to the Protocol Directorate at the FCO.

The FCO will advise if the offender has diplomatic immunity.

Minor offences, e.g. motoring offences, will not usually be referred to the CPS. It is usually sufficient for a copy of the police report to be sent to the FCO. The Deputy Director, Protocol, will write to the Deputy Head of Mission ("DHM") at the foreign Mission concerned, and ask the DHM to remind his staff of the need to respect UK laws.

In more serious cases, and if the FCO thinks that the case is one that merits seeking a waiver of immunity, the DPG will submit the full facts to the FCO and the Chief Crown Prosecutor (CCP) of the appropriate CPS Area. A serious case is defined under the FCO guidance as "an offence that might carry a custodial sentence of over 12 months".

The CCP will review the case in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors. He/she will advise both the DPG and FCO as to whether the criteria for prosecution are satisfied.

If the criteria are satisfied, the FCO, after consultation with the CCP will decide which of the following courses of action will be pursued:

warning the Head of Mission that the alleged offender must mend his ways;
requesting the withdrawal of the alleged offender from this country;
asking that the Head of Mission waive immunity so that a prosecution can proceed.
If the case does not satisfy criteria for prosecution the FCO may still decide that it is undesirable for the alleged offender to continue his duties in the UK.


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## ali786

P.kid said:


> Funny that if this were to happen in America and the person who shot the innocent people was Pakistani/Asian origin then what would happen? Doesnt take a genius to figure that out.


 
The blood of muslims is cheap nowerdays........


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## rubyjackass

xenia said:


> i guess even this statemnt is enough to negate his diplomatic immunity...the crime is grave ofcourse n the judicial authoruty is competive as per country standards
> 
> one thing, i assumed hez from diplomatic staff n thats actually not the case..if in such a situation immunity is given, the host country eclares the person "persona non grata" n thats somehow the end of a good career coz dont expect any good post once u r declred so..no "respected" country accepts such staff
> 
> secondly hez a worker of embassy in simple words..the diplomats n sounsellors are only "career civil service official", not hired by private agencies!



Vienna convention is a collection of *bare* minimum immunities and grants to be received by diplomats and consular staff as agreed by the signatories. Most countries had bilateral agreements regarding these provisions even before Vienna convention. These were guided by earlier conventions and generally agreed principles.


----------



## Vassnti

> it now transpires, as was reported by the Express Tribune, that the two motorcycle borne men who were killed were ISI agents



So "Davis" crossed the red line, the ISI descided to remove him and the American was faster?

Three Americans in the other car are on exit control despite the fact that the driver was a Pakistani, what people are being arested for the crime of being American?

The grieving wife that was recovering in hospital is dead two hours later?

Sorry some thing stinks about this whole incident.

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## ashok321

Here are some ramifications for Pakistan:



> The fact of the matter is that Raymond Davis is, by the reckoning of most neutral observers, a diplomat for the purposes of Article 38 of the Vienna Convention and hence entitled to diplomatic immunity. No court needs to decide that, only the Foreign Office does, because his status is a question, not of law, but of fact, and by refusing to do so the FO has landed the government in a far greater mess than it would have been in had it alluded to international law and said that, given the circumstances, it was helpless.
> 
> Our politicos, too, would have had to lump it. Because what is likely to happen is that either the US shuts shop and stops dealing with Pakistan or, alternatively, informs Pakistan that the immunity of its diplomats in the US will be withdrawn. Of course, for good measure, it can stop issuing visas for the 1,800 or so diplomatic and official Pakistani passport holders who travel to the US annually.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

B.S the men were not ISI agents!

Why would they follow him with local made third class pistols with only 4 or 5 bullets?N work as shopkeepers!
Stop with the conspiracies!.......


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## Beskar

If it wasn't for the people's anger, this government would have handed Raymond Davis a long time ago. Davis is being treated as a celebrity, his armed escorts resembles a mechanized military division and his food/water supply is nothing short of royal. To sum it up, the Government is in a bit of a pickle. Hand him over and watch people loot and burn or treat him like a terrorist and get whipped by the US. 

In any case, entertainment will be had by all.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

illuzioN said:


> why do pakistan people hate us so much?


 
Bossy atitude.... for eg release davis or else...not cooperating etc
Interfering in our internal affairs.
Sanctioning us.
Blaming us all the times.
Do more.
Betraying us in time of need.
Discrimination on international platforms.
Supporting dictators.
Threatning us with sanctions n crap.
Stupid statements by washington.
From the most sanctioned ally to the most bullied ally..... weve seen it all........Now ppl r fed up.

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## fallstuff

Interesting article from Counterpunch. I am quoting portion from the article authored by Dave Lindorff,


*The Deepening Mystery of Raymond Davis and Two Slain Pakistani Motorcyclists*





> The mystery of American Raymond A. Davis, currently imprisoned in the custody of local police in Lahore, Pakistan and charged with the Jan. 27 murder of two young men, whom he allegedly shot eight times with pinpoint accuracy through his car windshield, is growing increasingly murky. Also growing is the anger among Pakistanis that the US is trying to spring him from a Punjab jail by claiming diplomatic immunity. On Feb. 4, there were massive demonstrations, especially in Lahore, demanding that Davis be held for trial, an indication of the level of public anger at talk of granting him immunity.
> 
> Davis (whose identity was first denied and later confirmed by the US Embassy in Islamabad), and the *embassy have claimed that he was hired as an employee of a US security company called Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC, which was said to be located at 5100 North Lane in Orlando, Florida. Business cards for Hyperion were found on Davis by arresting officers.*
> 
> However CounterPunch has investigated and discovered the following information:
> 
> *First, there is not and never has been any such company located at the 5100 North Lane address. It is only an empty storefront, with empty shelves along one wall and an empty counter on the opposite wall, with just a lone used Coke cup sitting on it. A leasing agency sign is on the window. A receptionist at the IB Green & Associates rental agency located in Leesburg, Florida, said that her agency, which handles the property, part of a desolate-looking strip mall of mostly empty storefronts, has never leased to a Hyperion Protective Consultants. She added, In fact, until recently, we had for several years occupied that address ourselves.*
> *
> The Florida Secretary of States office, meanwhile, which requires all Florida companies, including LLSs (limited liability partnerships), to register, has no record, current or lapsed, of a Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC*, and there is only one company with the name Hyperion registered at all in the state. It is Hyperion Communications, a company based in W. Palm Beach, that has no connection with Davis or with security-related activities.
> 
> *The non-existent Hyperion Protective Consultants does have a website (Page Title), but one of the phone numbers listed doesnt work, an 800 number produces a recorded answer offering information about how to deal with or fend off bank foreclosures, and a third number with an Orlando exchange goes to a recording giving Hyperions corporate name and asking the caller to leave a message. Efforts to contact anyone on that line were unsuccessful. The local phone company says there is no public listing for Hyperion Protective Consultants--a rather unusual situation for a legitimate business operation*.
> 
> Pakistani journalists have been speculating that Davis is either a CIA agent or is working as a contractor for some private mercenary firm--possibly Xe, the reincarnation of Blackwater. They are not alone in their suspicions. Jeff Stein, writing in the Washington Post on January 27, suggested after interviewing Fred Burton, a veteran of the State Departments counter-terrorism Security Service, that Davis may have been involved in intelligence activity, either as a CIA employee under embassy cover or as a contract worker at the time of the shootings. Burton, who currently works with Stratfor, an Austin, TX-based global intelligence firm, even speculates that the shootings may have been a spy meeting gone awry, and not, as US Embassy and State Department officials are claiming, a case of an attempted robbery or car-jacking.





> The US claim that Davis has diplomatic immunity hinges first and foremost on whether he is actually a functionary of the consulate. *According to Lahore police investigators, he was arrested carrying a regular US passport, which had a business visa, not a diplomatic visa. The US reportedly only later supplied a diplomatic passport carrying a diplomatic visa that had been obtained not in the US before his departure, but in Islamabad, the countrys capital.
> *
> (Note: *It is not unusual, though it is not publicly advertised, for the US State Department to issue duplicate passports to certain Americans. When I was working for Business Week magazine in Hong Kong in the early 1990s, and was dispatched often into China on reporting assignments, my bureau chief advised me that I could take a letter signed by her to the US Consulate in Hong Kong and request a second passport. One would be used exclusively to enter China posing as a tourist. The other would be used for going in officially as a journalist. The reason for this subterfuge, which was supported by the State Department, was that once Chinese visa officials have spotted a Chinese journalist visa stamped in a passport, they would never again allow that person to enter the country without first obtaining such a visa*. The problem is that a journalist visa places strict limits on a reporters independent travel and access to sources. As a tourist, however, the same reporter could  illegally -- travel freely and report without being accompanied by meddling foreign affairs office handlers.




link:


Dave Lindorff: The Deepening Mystery of Raymond Davis and Two Slain Pakistani Motorcyclists

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## aakash_2410

Imran Khan said:


> enemy remains enemy even we are there nighburs and a US mad dog kill our citizens with cold blood.TUM LOGO KO LAGGA NHI ATI?


 
Well, We don't have any problems with pakistani people it's the pakistani establishment We have problems with.
And I wasn't even gonna comment that but I read someone's post saying 'Kasab is my hero and 26/11 should happen everyday in India'?  Now you tell me how can one bear such language against his/her country? 

I was still civil compared to him. Anyways it was just an impulse.


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## W.11

when this sob zerdari government runs a case on this american terrorist???


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## VelocuR

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Bossy atitude.... for eg release davis or else...not cooperating etc
> Interfering in our internal affairs.
> Sanctioning us.
> Blaming us all the times.
> Do more.
> Betraying us in time of need.
> Discrimination on international platforms.
> Supporting dictators.
> Threatning us with sanctions n crap.
> Stupid statements by washington.
> From the most sanctioned ally to the most bullied ally..... weve seen it all........Now ppl r fed up.


 

Add more:

Drones attack on thousand innocent Civilians
Killing Pakistan soldiers in "oopps" accidents
Unfriendly to Pakistan citizens in USA, jobless, muslims labels, etc
Major TV news regularly labels Pakistan's safe haven or terrorism
blames ISI, only just protecting Pakistan
Supplier to Afghan Talibans to attack Pakistan (i.e sucide bombing)

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## idune

US is making illegal demand and flexing muscle. Pakistan has all it needs to bring US in line of law. But question is if Pakistani administration and military willing to use their leverage? Otherwise simply cutting off supply route to Afghanistan and tell US to go pound sand will do the trick.


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## CardSharp

If both Egypt and Pakistan drops out of the WOT, Iraq and Afghanistan is forfeit.


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## Roybot

CardSharp said:


> If both Egypt and Pakistan drops out of the WOT, Iraq and Afghanistan is forfeit.


 
Egypt is a part of WOT?


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## Karachiite

illuzioN said:


> why do pakistan people hate us so much?


 
Hmm lets see where do we start. Maybe we hate America because it has always double crossed us. It's a known fact that America spares its enemies but does not spare it's friends. 

We are paying the price for supporting America in WOT. In return we get bombings from terrorists, our soldiers dying and threats from America.
Why wouldn't Pakistanis hate America after what America has done to us. Ask the family of the victims of the massacre by Raymond Davis or the families of the innocent victims of drone attacks done by America.

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## Pak_Sher

I think the time has come to that the exit process from this US WOT. It is not in Pakistan's medium and long term interest to be in thee WOT. The amount of US Aid is nothing as compared to the financial impact on Pakistan.


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## Pak_Sher

AstanoshKhan said:


> *Diplomatic Immunity or License to Kill*
> 
> February 8, 2011
> Dr. Haroon Iqbal
> 
> *Amidst the heated debate going on, on Raymond Davis case, one thing is easy to contemplate and has become part of the differential diagnosis as to who might be involved in the target killings of innocent Pakistanis in Karachi, Lahore and elsewhere. This is also easy to understand that how and why the interests of the TTP and the foreign security agencies, working undercover in Pakistan, converge. Which further infers that, who might be the inventor of the false flag outfits in Pakistan?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Hi tech weapons and gadgets found on the CIA sponsored American Terrorist Raymond Davis_
> 
> 
> Let us take a close look at the contents of *Mr. Raymonds belongings which include a GPS, a satellite phone & other hi-tech communication devices, military grade knives, cutters, 100 M16 bullets, sophisticated pistols, and above all, smart cameras, and more than 10 pictures of madrassas inside Lahore (picture shows all his belongings). Should such items be found on a respectable person like a diplomat? Or are they supposed to be found on a mercenary who was involved in espionage and/or a hunting mission?*
> 
> On the other hand, the way Pakistani government and foreign office has shown an attitude of leniency in his case, highlights the convergence of the interests of the rented out Pakistani rulers and Black Water mercenaries; simply linked with the hawks sitting in Langley committed to land Pakistan in a state of complete doom.
> 
> Apart from the legal provisions and aspects, the fact that *a person like Raymond having diplomatic immunity, or granting diplomatic immunity to professional killers is a dangerous trend, simply because anybody from either the American Embassy or any other Embassy for that matter, beyond diplomatic immunity, would earn a license to kill, leaving at his/her discretion to kill anybody.* *Apart from that, there are serious discrepancies in the statement of the Foreign Office which has categorically stated that the person named Raymond Davis did not have a diplomatic Visa (29th Jan 2011) and his records are not available with the Foreign Office.* Normally, records of each and every diplomat can be easily traced with the Foreign Office. Interior Minister Rehman Malik actually failed to prove that Raymond Davis was carrying a diplomatic visa, when he stressed that he was holding a diplomatic passport. According to The news report, Mr. Raymond was issued ordinary business visit visa and he was working for the American Consulate in Lahore.
> 
> *According to the Vienna convention 1963 (article 41:1) a counselor officer has got NO immunity once he commits a serious crime like the one committed by Raymond. According to another report of The News, America itself has tried diplomats in a court of law, who had committed serious crimes.
> *
> In Raymonds case, question of self defense does not arise, due to the following reasons:
> 
> *The assassinated have been shot from the back as per autopsy reports.
> Not a single bullet was fired from their side.
> Mr. Obaid ur Rehman was crushed and killed by the accomplices of Raymond, was that done in self defense too?
> In a nutshell, such an endorsement to mercenaries will provide so called diplomats with a license to kill. One wonders where those foreign funded, western beleaguered NGOs have disappeared when two human beings (supposedly Pakistanis) were killed in cold blood, in broad daylight? They were quite vocal on the killing of Governor Salman Taseer! Is the blood of an ordinary Pakistani is so cheap that American mercenaries strolling in Pakistani streets can gun down anybody under the protection of diplomatic immunity and the lame excuse of self defense?*
> 
> *Veterans Todays FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 2011 issue states, it may be mentioned that Raymond Davis is an employee of a private security company Hyperion Protective Consultants LLC based at 5100 North Lane, Orlando, Florida, 32808. This has been reported by NBC and confirmed by Huffington Post. A contractor employee has never been granted any diplomatic status but here the US is adamant to grant him one.(By Hamid Waheed).*
> 
> It is clearly stated here that US law does not permit Diplomatic status for a person who is working for a private security company. According to a senior Journalist of a renowned Pakistani TV Channel, Pakistani government has illegally issued legal visas to around 130 Americans and 86 Indians, via Dubai, to enter Pakistan without prior approval of the Pakistans premier Intelligence Agency the much dreaded ISI. If such a legal requirement cant be fulfilled under normal circumstances, it cant be something consistent with the normal diplomatic proceedings, and hence, *tens of hundreds of CIA/RAW agents have been given visas through Pakistani government to unleash terror within Pakistan; Pointing towards which, an American diplomat stated it looks awful when we see that a country like Pakistan has waged war against itself.*
> 
> The position of the Pakistani government is self-explanatory, when we see that the Interior Minister Rehman Malik has stressed that Raymond Davis was carrying a diplomatic passport, which is an appalling delude, whereby diplomatic status and visa issue has been confused with diplomatic passport. Punjab police also played a dirty role in this enigma, by registering the assassinated persons as dacoits, in their bid to weaken the case against the assailant. Punjab Government even excelled the Federal Government in pleasing Americans by forcefully detaching the Prosecutor General Mr. Rana Bakhtyiar from this case. His only fault was that he affronted the masters by condemning the barbaric act in the guise of diplomacy. *Now according to FOX NEWS, quoting Pakistani embassy in New York, Raymond will soon be released from the clutches of the Pakistani court of law.*
> 
> It is quite obvious that a weak case is being prepared against the assassin by crafting a vague investigation report coupled with a half hearted pursuance of the case on deliberations of the slavish rulers sitting in the Government. It goes without saying that how can flunkies, who came into power with American approval could possibly resist its pressure. The value of the precious Pakistani lives in the eyes of its rulers is quite understandable when hundreds of drone attacks have taken the lives of thousands of innocent Pakistani civilians. Moreover, an even pinching statement was made by *President Asif Ali Zardari who commented to the Americans that collateral damage could be a matter of concern for them but not for him. Such is the listless and apathetic mentality which is governing this country.*
> 
> *The single most convincing evidence that Raymond Davis is a serving undercover CIA operative, is that his original name is nowhere to be found in the diplomatic records. Additionally, his passport harbors a different name than the one he goes by.*
> 
> Part of Pakistans Electronic and Print media once again proved that it is sellable merchandise, when it played its role to weaken the case against Raymond. Soon after the incident a prominent Private channel highlighted that Raymond fired in self defense and that the assassinated were robbers with pistols in their hands (Here the dirty role of the police cannot be ruled out). Also, it emphasized that that those who killed were shot from front (against the reality) while the actual autopsy showed that they were shot from the back. Similarly, several analysts played their assigned role to prove that they were sold out, by arguing immunity for the assassin. This is how Pakistani media has been infiltrated by the hostile foreign agencies.
> 
> *The case of Raymond Davis is only a tip of the iceberg, and it exposes the dreadful reality that how agencies like CIA have permeated deep within every strata of the Pakistani society and unless they are fully rooted out, Pakistan will never be freed from the ghastly claws of terror campaign deployed against its integrity which is being unfolded under the code name War on Terror.*


 
This is not terrorist equipment this is standard equipment for the US Democracy Standards Diplomatic Norms.

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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## Obambam

America and Pakistan's relationship makes me think of Lady Gaga's, once, chart topping "Bad Romance". It was never meant to be..


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## Developereo

below_freezing said:


> Give him some permanent head surgery. Nothing's going to happen.
> 
> We shot the British drug dealer last year, besides crying what are they going to do? We also shot Japanese and Korean drug dealers, they don't even cry.
> 
> Singapore hung Australians and whipped Americans, what happened? Nothing.
> 
> Tell Obama this: If you come to Pakistan and kill 2 people, we will arrest, try, convict and execute you too.


 
That's exactly what will happen if Davis goes free. The next American who runs afoul of the law will be lynched by the mob before the police can save him.

American consular staff in Pakistan will need a massive security detail wherever they go, which will inevitably lead to an altercation sooner or later.

The best option of America is to stop acting like a bully and respect the rule of law.


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## desiman

Lets see if Pakistan can really stand up against the US after all the big talk we have seen, its highly doubtful that Islamabad will let go of the aid they get just to prosecute this one guy. They will bow down and just like what happens everytime, 10-20 "Defense analyst" will scream and shout on TV channels and call this yet another conspiracy. Its all too common.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

GoP should grow a pair n tell usa to stfu or else we il close their supply route n cooperation in WOT....Negotiate with the talis n leave em for good.

We have already lost thousands of civilians,soldiers n crippled our economy with 50-60 billion dollar worth infrastructure destroyed!


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## Developereo

desiman said:


> Lets see if Pakistan can really stand up against the US after all the big talk we have seen, its highly doubtful that Islamabad will let go of the aid they get just to prosecute this one guy. They will bow down and just like what happens everytime, 10-20 "Defense analyst" will scream and shout on TV channels and call this yet another conspiracy. Its all too common.


 
We all know that's what will happen eventually.

But the point is to put the US on record as using diplomatic immunity and bullying to bypass judicial process in a double murder case.

This precedent will affect US relations with all countries around the world, not just Pakistan.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> It doesn't mean its not happening, Kamal Nath has already been summoned to a US court for a hearing TOMORROW: US reviewing immunity for Kamal Nath in 1984 Sikh riots case | ummid.com By the US's own standards a precedent already exists.


The article does not back up what you claim, Asim. Yes, there will be a pre-trial hearing, however:

1) Nath is not in prison and it is a civil case so in my opinion the question of immunity of his _person_ doesn't exist now and is unlikely to arise. 

2) While Nath was served I don't think his presence at the hearing can be enforced, just as police can give a diplomat a parking ticket but can't compel him to pay. 

3) The State Department is reviewing his diplomatic immunity to this proceeding, not the courts.


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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> But the point is to put the US on record as using diplomatic immunity and bullying to bypass judicial process in a double murder case. This precedent will affect US relations with all countries around the world, not just Pakistan.


No, the point is to see if a Pakistan which celebrates killing one of its own governors because he sought to uphold minority rights remains civilized enough to follow international norms. This precedent will affect Pakistani relations with many countries around the world, not just the U.S.

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## Abii

illuzioN said:


> why do pakistan people hate us so much?


 
who doesn't hate you yankees?
you guys even hate yourselves. Liberal and Conservatives in your country are like two different ethnicities who can't wait to go to war with each other. 

And joking aside, I hear more Americans badmouthing Pakistanis than vice versa. Do a survey in the US, 9/10 will say "lets nuke them sand niggers"


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## Nav

Hang him infront of Parliment house , this is the only way to prove that we are not the 53rd state Of USA.


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## Solomon2

Nav said:


> Hang him infront of Parliment house , this is the only way to prove that we are not the 53rd state Of USA.


Don't you mean, "253rd"? After all, every other state on the planet honors diplomatic immunity. You desire Pakistan to be the only exception.


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## FreekiN

Solomon2 said:


> Don't you mean, "253rd"? After all, every other state on the planet honors diplomatic immunity. You desire Pakistan to be the only exception.


 
So if a Pakistani diplomat shot 3 Americans in Washington DC, he'd be subject to diplomatic immunity and walk free? 

Oh politics, you so crazy.

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## Crypto




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## iPhone

In alll honesty, stoping aid to Pakistan would be the best thing to have ever happened to Pakistan and also in the best interest of the U.S.

Pakistan would finally be able to stand on it's feet and start taxing every facet of it's society equally and raise it's revenues substantially.

The US can funnel that aid money for it's own debt elimination and economic revival. Too many people have lost their jobs here and too many are going too loose their jobs in the near future. Many major states, including NY, are loosing teachers, firefighters, cops and other civil employees, pension cuts and payscale downgrade is the talk of the town.

I serously think the aid should stop, it's in the best interest of both, Pakistani and American people.

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## ajtr

*Everybody hates Raymond Saroop Ijaz​*

*The disagreements on the construction of the Vienna Convention are completely valid. However, to make absurd demands like, for example, proposing an exchange between Mr Davis and Dr Aafia Siddiqui, are ridiculous*

The shooting in Lahore by an allegedly American diplomat Raymond Davis has been the subject of much controversy. The primary focus has rightly been on the legal position governing an incident like this. The diplomatic status of the shooter has not been clarified yet. The extension of the Vienna Conventions immunity is being debated, although for any concrete determination, the facts surrounding the incident including diplomatic status, self-defence and the criminal antecedents of the shooter and the victims are imperative. There, however, remains a broader question relating to the incident: what would prompt a foreign diplomat to resort to such means (excluding self-defence) in a country with an evidently hostile population?

A study conducted by The National Bureau of Economic Research in 2006 through a Berkeley and Columbia professor, focused on exploring the relationship between illegal car parking by foreign diplomats in the New York City and corruption in their home countries. Diplomatic immunity means there was essentially zero legal enforcement of diplomatic parking violations, which allowed for the examination of the role of cultural norms of the home country. In essence this means that consular personnel and their families benefit from diplomatic immunity, a privilege that allows them to avoid paying parking fines. The study generated a revealed preference measure of corruption based on real world behaviour of government officials, all acting in the same setting. According to the study, the act of parking illegally fits remarkably well with a standard definition of corruption by Transparency International, i.e. the abuse of entrusted power for private gain, suggesting that the comparison of parking violations by diplomats from different societies serves as a credible measure of the extent of cultural norms of corruption. The results found persistence in corruption norms: diplomats from high corruption countries (based on the existing survey-based indices) had significantly more parking violations. Incidentally, relevant to current events, Egypt has been the worst offender, racking up 17,633 tickets due to illegal parking by its diplomats in New York between 1997 and 2009 for a total of $ 1.9 million. 

The cultural norms of a country affect the behaviour of its foreign diplomats. Equally significantly, the study revealed that officials from countries that survey evidence indicates have less favourable popular views of the US committed significantly more parking violations than those having more favourable views. This illustrates the role that sentiment, affinity and perception play in economic decision-making and diplomatic behaviour. The seminal point relevant to the Raymond Davis incident is that the perception of the country and its laws where a diplomat is stationed influences his behaviour and inclination to respect and comply with the domestic regulations of that country. A particularly interesting finding of the study mentioned above is that countries with larger proportions of Muslim population experienced particularly pronounced declines in parking violations in the months following the September 11 attacks in New York City.

Mr Davis belonged to a country where the Second Amendment to the constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms. Assuming Mr Davis is a diplomat, his behaviour displays scant regard for Pakistan and its regulations, coupled with the violent gun culture of the US. Excluding self-defence or temporary insanity for the moment, if we consider the question whether Mr Davis would have adopted the same course of action if he were stationed in France, it is reasonable to guess that it is highly unlikely that he would. If robbed in Paris, he would probably not reach for his gun, but rather would have had a criminal complaint registered. However, in a country where vigilantism is encouraged tacitly, rather glorified overtly, Mr Davis decided to shoot two people who had apparently attempted to mug him. He was certainly also aware of the constant grossly generalised venom indiscriminately directed against the Americans as a people. This does not in any way justify the conduct of Mr Davis, and the law should take its course, holding him accountable. It, however, does provide a context in which we as a people and foreign diplomats stationed here must live.

The response to the incident manifests the typical knee-jerk reactions permeating our public discourse. The Foreign Office should clarify his diplomatic status and his permission to carry firearms. He should be prosecuted in Pakistan if he does not have diplomatic immunity. The disagreements on the construction of the Vienna Convention are completely valid. However, to make absurd demands like, for example, proposing an exchange between Mr Davis and Dr Aafia Siddiqui are ridiculous. It is precisely because of such hostage-seeking, human-trafficking reactions that the world in general  and foreign diplomats in particular  choose to view us as mediaeval and our laws as irrelevant. The focus should remain on the factual and legal position surrounding the incident and not degenerate into the usual exchange of conspiracy theories. Mr Davis, if he legally can be, should be investigated for the deaths of three Pakistani citizens. It should not, however, be posited as a crusade against the US. The unfortunate incident in Lahore should be viewed as an opportunity to emphasise our ability as a state and a nation to comprehend, enforce and comply with the laws, both domestic and international, rather than brandishing our imaginary, fragile national ego.

The writer is a lawyer based at Lahore and can be reached at saroop_ijaz@hotmail.com


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## ajtr

*Catch-22​*

The government is in a classic catch-22 situation. In Raymond Davis case it has very difficult options. The employee of the US consulate in Lahore had shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, ostensibly in self-defence, an incident whose motives and details remain murky. The status of Raymond Davis is also far from clear. The US is seeking diplomatic immunity for him, but things have been complicated for the government  which may have been inclined to grant immunity to save its relations with the US  by the reaction of the right wing forces and now the suicide of the widow of one of the murdered Pakistanis.

After weeks of rallies by religious outfits in support of the blasphemy laws, which are now gradually losing wind in the face of a firm denial by the government that any such move is afoot, releasing Raymond Davis may add fresh fuel to their reactionary agenda. They may view it as a golden opportunity to whip up anti-American sentiment among the public and pit them against the government. Currently, Davis is in the Punjab governments custody and a court is hearing this case. 

This has not gone down well with the US, which has heightened efforts to get him released. US Ambassador Cameron Munter has met President Asif Ali Zardari and sought his release. To send a firm signal to Pakistan that it means business, the US has postponed all bilateral diplomatic contact till this happens. Already the implications of this impasse have started making themselves felt. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi postponed his visit to Munich, Germany, where he was scheduled to attend a security conference, because Pakistan has been informed that Secretary of State Hilary Clinton might not be able to meet him there because of this dispute. President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to the US next month too has been jeopardised because of this issue. If Pakistan fails to comply with the USs wishes, its position will be compromised in the trilateral negotiations involving the US, Pakistan and Afghanistan. In addition, painstaking diplomatic efforts by the US to reach out to the people of Pakistan and the ensuing strategic dialogue initiated last year are at risk. Moreover, various aid packages from the US, on which Pakistan is heavily dependent, are also in jeopardy.

It is not that Washingtons own interests would not be hurt by this impasse in relations. Pakistan is critical to the USs involvement in Afghanistan. The likelihood is that Pakistan will take help from the court. The government will try to defuse the situation by creating a fait accompli. The Foreign Office may declare Raymond Davis a diplomat by presenting relevant documents in the court. If Raymond Davis is spirited away in this manner, this will ruffle quite a few feathers among the religious and other rightwing parties, which are keen to pounce upon any opportunity to create instability. However, so much is at stake for both Pakistan and the US that there is greater probability that they will retreat from the brink. In real life when David met Goliath, he won, but a client state like Pakistan does not have the option of standing up to the Goliath that the US is. *


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> No, the point is to see if a Pakistan which celebrates killing one of its own governors because he sought to uphold minority rights remains civilized enough to follow international norms. This precedent will affect Pakistani relations with many countries around the world, not just the U.S.


 
If you repeat this reasoning in front of a judge, you will be ejected from court.

The Salman Taseer murder has absolutely no relevance to this case. Just as terrorist attacks have no relevance to this case. Bringing up such irrelevancies may score cheap points with onlookers but, in reality, it only serves as an admission that you have no resposne to the main issue at hand.

The fact is that, even if diplomatic immunity is admitted, the right thing for the US to do is to waive such immunity so that the rule of law can take its course.

I already posted a case where the US sought waiver of diplomatic immunity for a foreign diplomat implicated in drunk driving manslaughter. Here's another case involving Britain and India.

UK asks India to waive diplomatic immunity to 'wife beater' envoy



> Britain on Monday asked India to waive the diplomatic immunity for Anil Verma, a senior Indian diplomat accused of assaulting his wife, saying it does not tolerate envoys working in the UK breaking the law.



If waivers can be requested for wife beating and manslaughter, they can certainly be requested for double murders.

The decision is up to the United States. Does it stand for rule of law, or does it hold its officials above the law?


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## Shak

This is fully double standard by US. 
Diplomats with gun shooting 2 people (no matter who they are) same time another team coming to rescue.
He can speak fluently in local language. Dont have any proof of diplomats and havent traveled on VISA for diplomats.
He doesnt want to cooperate with local administration and top of that US govt. acting like a bully.
This is not so fare. If US govt. can track Indian student with Radio tags and applies counties law then why cant Pakistan go with their law system?
Can US learn from Egypt example? Why you always want to bully small nation under name of diplomacy?
Pakistan should not back down now. Its your land and you have to respect it.


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## Areesh

Pak_Sher said:


> This is not terrorist equipment this is standard equipment for the US Democracy Standards Diplomatic Norms.
> 
> You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


 
Oh this is the standard "diplomatic" norm of USA. Looks like someone in the USA diplomacy loves to play Hitman inside Pakistan.


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## Areesh

ashok321 said:


> Here are some ramifications for Pakistan:


 
Thanks for informing us. But still NO. The matter is in the courts of Pakistan and we can't do anything for the mercenary until the court gives its verdict.


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## Developereo

iPhone said:


> In alll honesty, stoping aid to Pakistan would be the best thing to have ever happened to Pakistan and also in the best interest of the U.S.
> 
> Pakistan would finally be able to stand on it's feet and start taxing every facet of it's society equally and raise it's revenues substantially.


 
Nah.

Government of Pakistan will just switch from one teat (USA) to another (Saudi Arabia).

The only hope for Pakistan is if the aid donors demand accountability from the Pakistani government because the Pakistani public sure is powerless to do so. The system is completely controlled by the feudal/industrial/military elite who will never relinquish their special privileges voluntarily.


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## Chinese-Dragon

iPhone said:


> In alll honesty, stoping aid to Pakistan would be the best thing to have ever happened to Pakistan and also in the best interest of the U.S.
> 
> Pakistan would finally be able to stand on it's feet and start taxing every facet of it's society equally and raise it's revenues substantially.
> 
> The US can funnel that aid money for it's own debt elimination and economic revival. Too many people have lost their jobs here and too many are going too loose their jobs in the near future. Many major states, including NY, are loosing teachers, firefighters, cops and other civil employees, pension cuts and payscale downgrade is the talk of the town.
> 
> I serously think the aid should stop, it's in the best interest of both, Pakistani and American people.


 
I agree with this. 

Aid is a "crutch", that prevents a person from standing up on their own.

Also... the aid that America gives, is no where near enough to compensate Pakistan for the WoT.

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## Nothing

Sohni Dharti said:


> Nah.
> 
> Government of Pakistan will just switch from one teat (USA) to another (Saudi Arabia).
> 
> The only hope for Pakistan is if the aid donors demand accountability from the Pakistani government because the Pakistani public sure is powerless to do so. The system is completely controlled by the feudal/industrial/military elite who will never relinquish their special privileges voluntarily.


 
Agree with you.... in current situation aid is necessary for GOP. 
1. to get infrastructure in place ( mostly damaged by flood )
2. to keep deficit in check and control inflation 
3. good relation with USA means more FDI and more business for Pakistan
4. still majority of PAF is dependent on USA for spare parts and for weapons .. 
5. PA need funding to get rid of TTP from Pakistan...
6. IMF is forcing GOP in correct direction for economic reform..once that pressure will go away GOP will keep printing money for need and inflation will go sky high..
7. USA is supporting many power projects in Pakistan which is need for hour ... 


its just like I am paying you .. so you have to take my ******


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## Areesh

> ISLAMABAD: *In an interesting twist to the Lahore double murder involving a US diplomatic official, prosecutors have recommended that an espionage case be also registered against him, sources said on Tuesday.*
> 
> Raymond Davis is already facing charges for killing two Pakistani motorcyclists in a busy marketplace of Lahore on January 27.
> 
> *Keeping in view the nature of the case it is strongly recommended that a case of espionage be registered against Davis,* the prosecution branch of the Punjab police has written in an official letter to the investigation branch.
> *
> During the course of investigation, police retrieved photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations from Davis camera, a source told The Express Tribune requesting anonymity. Photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan Armys bunkers on the Eastern border with India were found in the camera, *the source added.
> 
> *The police had recovered a digital camera, a Glock pistol and a phone tracker along with a charger from Davis after his arrest.* The Punjab government considers Davis a security risk after the recovery of the photos of sensitive installations, said the source.
> 
> The Obama administration has been pressuring Pakistan to release Davis who, according to it, is a member of the administrative and technical staff of the mission and therefore enjoys diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention.
> 
> But Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif has told American diplomats that the matter is sub judice and only the Lahore High Court (LHC) would decide whether or not Davis was entitled to diplomatic immunity, an official source told The Express Tribune.
> 
> Sharif made the statement at a recent meeting with the US diplomats who sought Davis immediate release.
> 
> Citing a letter written by Interior Minister Rehman Malik to the Punjab government, the diplomats said that Davis had diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Sharif, however, denied his government had received any letter from the interior minister, according to the sources. Sharif advised the diplomats to wait for the LHC ruling on the diplomatic status of Davis.
> 
> A security official told The Express Tribune that Davis name did not figure on a list of US diplomats presented by the American embassy to the ministry of foreign affairs on Jan 25. But interestingly, his name figured prominently on another list submitted by the embassy to the ministry on Jan 28.
> 
> Diplomatic source told The Express Tribune that the foreign ministrys viewpoint would be presented before the LHC whenever asked by the court.
> 
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 9th, 2011.



Davis may also face espionage charge


----------



## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> If you repeat this reasoning in front of a judge, you will be ejected from court.


That's the desired outcome, because the court has no jurisdiction here. That's what diplomatic immunity means. It isn't something granted on a case-by-case basis.



> the right thing for the US to do is to waive such immunity so that the rule of law can take its course.


Hardly. The only people who would benefit by the U.S. waiving immunity would be the a$$holes in the FO who screwed everything up. Given the hyped-up mood in Pakistan it would be like throwing a bound man to wolves, yes? Pakistan isn't a country that can boast of the fairness of its legal due processes right now.



> The decision is up to the United States. Does it stand for rule of law, or does it hold its officials above the law?


Diplomatic immunity _is_ the rule-of-law. The Lahore judge who ordered Davis held could cite no applicable legal basis for doing so. There is no basis for a court deciding diplomatic immunity, it is an administrative decision and not a judicial one.


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## JonAsad

Pak_Sher said:


> This is not terrorist equipment this is standard equipment for the* US Democracy Standards Diplomatic Norms*.
> 
> You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


 
Huh--
Whats your source of this rubbish claim-- Standard diplomatic equipment?
A supposed member of "technical and administrative staff" cannot carry illegal firearms and that much fire power--


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> That's the desired outcome, because the court has no jurisdiction here. That's what diplomatic immunity means. It isn't something granted on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Hardly. The only people who would benefit by the U.S. waiving immunity would be the a$$holes in the FO who screwed everything up. Given the hyped-up mood in Pakistan it would be like throwing a bound man to wolves, yes? Pakistan isn't a country that can boast of the fairness of its legal due processes right now.
> 
> Diplomatic immunity _is_ the rule-of-law. The Lahore judge who ordered Davis held could cite no applicable legal basis for doing so. There is no basis for a court deciding diplomatic immunity, it is an administrative decision and not a judicial one.


 
Once again you are avoiding the issue and deflecting debate.

The central issue is the double murder, not diplomatic immunity. The whole debate about diplomatic immunity is a canard. Even if Davis is covered by such immunity, the right thing for the US to do is to waive it so that he can face the rule of law on the double murder charge, based purely on evidence, just like any other person would in similar circumstances.

The fact that the US is harping on diplomatic immunity and refusing to waive it pre-emptively shows its contempt for rule of law and is an arrogant assertion that its officials are above the law in host countries.

If the situation were reversed and a Pakistani diplomat shot two Americans in the back, do you really think the US would let the guy walk free?


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> The article does not back up what you claim, Asim. Yes, there will be a pre-trial hearing, however:
> 
> 1) Nath is not in prison and it is a civil case so in my opinion the question of immunity of his _person_ doesn't exist now and is unlikely to arise.
> 
> 2) While Nath was served I don't think his presence at the hearing can be enforced, just as police can give a diplomat a parking ticket but can't compel him to pay.
> 
> 3) The State Department is reviewing his diplomatic immunity to this proceeding, not the courts.


 
Obviously there won't be an exact script, but precedent has been set by the US courts DECIDING upon immunity. That too Diplomatic Immunity.

In Davis' case, the 1st case will establish whether or not he is Raymond Davis. This hearing is on the 17th of Feb. If he is lying about being Raymond Davis then the question of immunity doesn't even arise.


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## Awesome

US denies suspending all high-level dialogue with Pakistan

Islamabad, Feb 9(ANI): The United States has denied reports that it has put all bilateral contacts with Pakistan on hold until Islamabad releases double murder-accused US diplomat Raymond Davis. 

We continue contact with Pakistan to express the importance of resolving the case of a U.S. diplomat in accordance with international law, US Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs Philip J. Crowley wrote on micro-blogging site Twitter.

Crowleys tweet came hours after media reports that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had cancelled a meeting last weekend with Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi at an international security conference in Munich to protest the arrested US diplomat's detention.

It was also reported that the dispute could affect three major events planned this year- President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to Washington, the next round of US-Pakistan strategic dialogue and the trilateral talks involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United States later this month.

In a press briefing also, when asked whether there had been any slowdown on sort of contacts at a lower level, because this issue remains unresolved, Crowley said the United States continues to have contacts with the Pakistan Government. 

We continue to express to them the importance of resolving this. And we continue to express to them the fact that our U.S. diplomat has diplomatic immunity and should be released, he added.

Crowley pointed out that Secretary had a discussion with General Kayani on the margins of the Munich Security Conference. Ambassador Munter talked to President Zardari today. The Secretary talked to President Zardari last week. So we continue to have contacts with our Pakistani counterparts, and we continue to emphasize the importance of resolving this case.


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## Awesome

Raymond Davis case: Police findings to be made public &#8211; The Express Tribune

The complete challan along with the investigation report in the Qurtaba Chowk shooting case involving US citizen Raymond Davis will be submitted in the court on February 11.

This was stated by Law minister Rana Sanaullah at the Punjab Assembly cafeteria on Tuesday. He was talking to the media following a meeting with clerics of different sects to discuss the security arrangements for the Eid-e-Miladun Nabi.

He said the provincial government was handling the case in accordance with the Criminal Procedures Code. He said once the investigation was complete Davis would be sent to jail.

He said the federal government and the US consulate had yet to respond to provincial governments letters. He said the consulate had been asked to hand over the vehicle and the driver responsible for Ibadur Rehmans death minutes after Davis had shot dead two people on January 27. The letter addressed to the federal government a week ago sought to place Daviss name on the exit control list, he said.
Sanaullah said the government would be forced to submit the challan without US consulates account if the latter failed to surrender the vehicle and its driver. This, he said, was likely to create more problems rather than help the US consulates interests. He said the capital city police officer was supervising the investigation. The investigation report, he said, would be shared with the media on February 11 after it was submitted in the court. He said investigators were looking at all aspects of the case to ensure that the probe was comprehensive and impartial.

He said while the US government was demanding Daviss release the provincial government was committed to investigating the case fairly.
We have refused to succumb to the US pressure, he said.
He said it was unfortunate that some parties had sought political mileage out of the issue. He said they should realise that it was a very sensitive issue and any irresponsible action could harm national interest For countrys sake, they should avoid politicizing the issue, he said.


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## Rafael

Asim Aquil said:


> US denies suspending all high-level dialogue with Pakistan
> 
> Islamabad, Feb 9(ANI): The United States has denied reports that it has put all bilateral contacts with Pakistan on hold until Islamabad releases double murder-accused US diplomat Raymond Davis.
> 
> We continue contact with Pakistan to express the importance of resolving the case of a U.S. diplomat in accordance with international law, US Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs Philip J. Crowley wrote on micro-blogging site Twitter.
> 
> Crowleys tweet came hours after media reports that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had cancelled a meeting last weekend with Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi at an international security conference in Munich to protest the arrested US diplomat's detention.
> 
> It was also reported that the dispute could affect three major events planned this year- President Asif Ali Zardaris visit to Washington, the next round of US-Pakistan strategic dialogue and the trilateral talks involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United States later this month.
> 
> In a press briefing also, when asked whether there had been any slowdown on sort of contacts at a lower level, because this issue remains unresolved, Crowley said the United States continues to have contacts with the Pakistan Government.
> 
> We continue to express to them the importance of resolving this. And we continue to express to them the fact that our U.S. diplomat has diplomatic immunity and should be released, he added.
> 
> Crowley pointed out that Secretary had a discussion with General Kayani on the margins of the Munich Security Conference. Ambassador Munter talked to President Zardari today. The Secretary talked to President Zardari last week. So we continue to have contacts with our Pakistani counterparts, and we continue to emphasize the importance of resolving this case.



Yesterday Gen. Kiyani met Hillary and i believe he would have told her that If you don't want your American soldiers in Afghanistan to live than please act like a good boy, thus this development.


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## Awesome

raheel1 said:


> Yesterday Gen. Kiyani met Hillary and i believe he would have told her that If you don't want your American soldiers in Afghanistan to live than please act like a good boy, thus this development.


 
Did they meet? Last I heard the US escalated the tensions by refusing to meet. Well the original meeting was with Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Kayani was just in the neighborhood and she refused to meet Qureshi and Kayani also refused to meet her without Qureshi.

So can't say for sure if it happened... Probably Hi, hello


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## T-Rex

raheel1 said:


> Yesterday Gen. Kiyani met Hillary and i believe he would have told her that If you don't want your American soldiers in Afghanistan to live than please act like a good boy, thus this development.


 
What did Gen. Kiyani tell her? I'm afraid, in the end, the americans will get what they want. They are notorious in the art of blackmailing and getting away with crimes.


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## Rafael

Asim Aquil said:


> Did they meet? Last I heard the US escalated the tensions by refusing to meet. Well the original meeting was with Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Kayani was just in the neighborhood and she refused to meet Qureshi and Kayani also refused to meet her without Qureshi.
> 
> So can't say for sure if it happened... Probably Hi, hello


 
According to some news channels, Yes! 

Hillary Clinton Meets General Kayani - Urdu World News


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## Imran Khan

raheel1 said:


> Yesterday Gen. Kiyani met Hillary and i believe he would have told her that If you don't want your American soldiers in Afghanistan to live than please act like a good boy, thus this development.


 
you are wrong gen.kiyani never talk much hallry bash bash bash and when she tired gen take one cigarette smoke and look to her face.then she understand what kiyani is saying . gen kiyani think HAR BAT KA JAWAB DENA ZAROORI NHI HOTA


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## tallboy123

Washington, Feb 9 (PTI) Stepping up pressure on Pakistan, US lawmakers have threatened to cut massive aid to the country unless it frees an American diplomat detained over shadowy killing of two Pakistanis.
The tough message that the US aid may be in jeopardy was delivered to Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani by three top Congressmen during their just concluded trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan.
The warning by lawmakers came amid media reports that US Administration has warned Islamabad that high level dialogue would be at risk unless the US embassy staffer Raymond Davis was released.
The Congressmen Howard "Buck" McKeon who heads the House Armed Services Committee, John Kline, Chairman Education and Labour Committee and Silvestre Reyes, the senior Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence told Gilani that Islamabad should release the diplomat as certainly there was a possibility that "there would be repercussions if they don''t".
"During the meeting with the Prime Minister, the delegation pressed (Yusuf Raza) Gillani on the potential long-term implications to the US-Pakistani strategic relationship if the US diplomat detained in Lahore is not released," said Kline.
The influential Republican Congressman Kline told the Pakistan Prime Minister "it is possible that a member of Congress could come up with amendments to cut funding for Pakistan based on the detention of Davis".
The delegation also met the powerful Chief of the Army General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
"The delegation pressed Prime Minister Gillani on the potential long-term implications to the US-Pakistani strategic relationship if the Pakistani government does not release US diplomat Raymond Davis, who is currently detained by authorities in Lahore," Reyes said.
Talking to reporters here, McKeon said the delegation indicated it could very well be that the US might consider withholding funding.


US lawmakers warn to cut off aid to Pakistan -  International News


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## Spring Onion

already discussed.


its good they should cut it off because only Zardari govt and a blue eyed NGO is getting the aid not army neither the people of Pakistan


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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> Once again you are avoiding the issue and deflecting debate. The central issue is the double murder, not diplomatic immunity.


No. Pakistan doesn't even have the right to hold a person with diplomatic immunity for questioning or investigation. It could request a country waive immunity for a diplomat, but cannot continue to hold him while such a request is pending. 



> If the situation were reversed and a Pakistani diplomat shot two Americans in the back, do you really think the US would let the guy walk free?


If the _context_ of events was the same, very likely, yet in the U.S. armed motorcyclist-robbers aren't among the dangers in life one looks out for. The diplomat might not be expelled, though it's likely his own embassy would remove him from the country for its own reasons. 



Asim Aquil said:


> Obviously there won't be an exact script, but precedent has been set by the US courts DECIDING upon immunity. That too Diplomatic Immunity.


No. As the article points out, the State Dept. decides. In a civil suit you can _attempt_ to sue anybody for anything; I could claim you murdered my parents before they were born and try to take you to civil court to seek compensation. That doesn't mean I'd have the right to keep you in jail while a preliminary investigation is in progress to verify my groundless claims, nor that the court would decide such a meaningless case.



> If he is lying about being Raymond Davis then the question of immunity doesn't even arise.


No. Remember, under international law it isn't up to the individual to decide whether he can drop immunity or not so it sticks to him no matter what name he chooses to use. 



> We continue to express to them the importance of resolving this. And we continue to express to them the fact that our U.S. diplomat has diplomatic immunity and should be released, he added.


So the official U.S. approach is to be patronizing: Pakistanis are a bunch of ignorant bumblers and need to be taught the meaning Pakistan's duties regarding diplomatic immunity. That may be true of the Pakistanis on this forum, but can be no excuse for Pakistan's Foreign Office; it's not like Pakistan was born last month. 

But the new, kill-the-law-abiding-governor-and-celebrate Pakistan was. Every day, Pakistani officials are challenged to uphold rule-by-law rather than rule-by-will, and it seems every day they fail; as one writer put it, Pakistan is "no country for brave men". If Davis remains in prison because Pakistanis refuse to uphold the law, how can Pakistanis claim to be civilized?


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## Imran Khan

we dont need beg and aid we need head of killer


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## cross1993

Shameless American.
Threaten other countries with the assistance! Extraterritoriality is an aggression of other countries.

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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> No. Pakistan doesn't even have the right to hold a person with diplomatic immunity for questioning or investigation. It could request a country waive immunity for a diplomat, but cannot continue to hold him while such a request is pending.



I don't know what the law is when the suspect is considered a flight risk -- especially while the status of his diplomatic immunity is being determined.



Solomon2 said:


> If the _context_ of events was the same, very likely, yet in the U.S. armed motorcyclist-robbers aren't among the dangers in life one looks out for.



Let's say the foreign diplomat wandered into Watts (California) or a bad part of Washington, DC. People do walk around with AK-47s and Uzis in the open. I know this for a fact. A very relevant question would be what he was doing in such an area in a car with illegal plates and even more illegal weapons. There is no way the US would let the person go without trial if he had just killed two people.


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## Solomon2

Imran Khan said:


> we dont need beg and aid we need head of killer


Have you and your countrymen fallen so far from civilization into barbarism that the only courses of action you can think of are begging or killing?



Sohni Dharti said:


> I don't know what the law is when the suspect is considered a flight risk -- especially while the status of his diplomatic immunity is being determined.


Davis' diplomatic immunity isn't "being determined". The U.S. knows what it is and Pakistan's FO too - but the FO says they'll only tell this to the court! Definitely a violation of international law on the part of Pakistan.



> A very relevant question would be what he was doing in such an area in a car with illegal plates and even more illegal weapons.


I can't recall the last time the firearms thing happened in the U.S. That's probably because most firearms are legal here. In either case all that can be done is to expel the diplomat. (Well, the police can issue a traffic ticket for the plates but can't compel collection.)



> There is no way the US would let the person go without trial if he had just killed two people.


It's quite possible. In a real sense the country that sent the diplomat bears the blame, not the diplomat himself - and the diplomat can't be used as a punching bag, not unless the sending country waives immunity.


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## ajtr

Solomon2 said:


> Have you and your countrymen fallen so far from civilization into barbarism that the only courses of action you can think of are begging or killing?
> 
> Davis' diplomatic immunity isn't "being determined". The U.S. knows what it is and Pakistan's FO too - but the FO says they'll only tell this to the court! Definitely a violation of international law on the part of Pakistan.
> 
> I can't recall the last time the firearms thing happened in the U.S. That's probably because most firearms are legal here. In either case all that can be done is to expel the diplomat. (Well, the police can issue a traffic ticket for the plates but can't compel collection.)
> 
> It's quite possible. In a real sense the country that sent the diplomat bears the blame, not the diplomat himself - and the diplomat can't be used as a punching bag, not unless the sending country waives immunity.


 Raymond Davis's case is in court.court will decide his fate wether diplomat or not.BTW how morally correct usa is in protecting its own agent david headley being involved in 26/11.In case of david headley usa gave the reasoning about the usa laws etc. now ur own man is pakistani court facing double murder charge why usa govt is arm twisting pak govt. to by pass its courts.

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## W.11

davelindorff said:


> I am an American journalist and have done some investigating into the case. You can read my article in Counterpunch at counterpunch.org exposing the fact that Raymond Davis's company, Hyperion-Protective Consultants, is a front--it's address is a vacant storefront in a deserted shopping mall, and the rental agent says it has never been rented to such a company. You can see a Google Earth photo of the empty mall on my newspaper's website at This Can't Be Happening | A news collective, founded as a blog in 2004, covering war, politics, environment, economy, culture and all the madness
> 
> I would be very much interested in hearing more about your contact with a police source who gave such detail about the arrest.
> 
> Thank you.
> Dave Lindorff
> dlindorff@mindspring.com
> ThisCantBeHappening


 
hello, this reminds me of fahrenheit 9/11 conspiracy, dude get a life..


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## Solomon2

ajtr said:


> Raymond Davis's case is in court.court will decide his fate wether diplomat or not.


Under international law Pakistan's Foreign Office has jurisdiction and cannot refer to the courts!


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## Imran Khan

Solomon2 said:


> Under international law Pakistan's Foreign Office has jurisdiction and cannot refer to the courts!


 
go to hell international law which is for poors onlysame go to hell US and WOT . we need our sovereignty and freedom back

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## kugga

Solomon2 said:


> Under international law Pakistan's Foreign Office has jurisdiction and cannot refer to the courts!


 
this is what international law says buddy 



Article 41
_Personal inviolability of consular of icers_

1. Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, *except in the case of agrave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.*

2. *Except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article*, consular officers shall not be
committed to prison or be liable to any other form of restriction on their personal freedom save in
execution of a judicial decision of final effect.

3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the
competent authorities. Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by
reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner
which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. When, in the circumstances
mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the
proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay.


And the person in discussion does not seem to be even a counselor officer he's said to be a counselor employee.

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## Solomon2

kugga said:


> this is what international law says buddy Article 41 Personal inviolability of consular -


You are quoting from the wrong treaty. Davis' immunity is diplomatic, not consular, a status that isn't in doubt but that the F.O. is fudging by refusing to admit, save to a Pakistani court upon demand. A totally illegal procedure under international law.


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## kugga

Solomon2 said:


> You are quoting from the wrong treaty. Davis' immunity is diplomatic, not consular, a status that isn't in doubt but that the F.O. is fudging by refusing to admit, save to a Pakistani court upon demand. A totally illegal procedure under international law.


 
Ok now tell which is the category for Raymond davis among the given two definitions written in Vienna Convention 


(d) consular officer means any person, including the head of a consular post, entrusted in that capacity with the exercise of consular functions;
(e) consular employee means any person employed in the administrative or technical service of a consular post;

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## Rafael

Solomon2 said:


> Have you and your countrymen fallen so far from civilization into barbarism that the only courses of action you can think of are begging or killing?



No! But you and your countrymen have surely fallen so far from civilization into barbarism that calling you people human beings has become an insult to the word itself!

Bloody terrorists!

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## JonAsad

> Originally Posted by davelindorff
> I am an American journalist and have done some investigating into the case. You can read my article in Counterpunch at counterpunch.org exposing the fact that Raymond Davis's company, Hyperion-Protective Consultants, is a front--it's address is a vacant storefront in a deserted shopping mall, and the rental agent says it has never been rented to such a company. You can see a Google Earth photo of the empty mall on my newspaper's website at This Can't Be Happening | A news collective, founded as a blog in 2004, covering war, politics, environment, economy, culture and all the madness
> 
> I would be very much interested in hearing more about your contact with a police source who gave such detail about the arrest.
> 
> Thank you.
> Dave Lindorff
> dlindorff@mindspring.com
> ThisCantBeHappening






> davelindorff
> REGISTERED
> This message has been deleted by santro.
> Reason
> Post it here.



I dont get it, why delete it?
He got some valid points 
and what does Post it here-- means?


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## ashok321

> Mr. Davis spent 10 years in the American military, starting with basic training at Fort Benning, Ga., in 1993. He moved to special warfare training with the Third Special Forces Group at Fort Bragg, N.C., in 1998, and left the Army in 2003. His only overseas posting, according to his Army service record, was a six-month stint as a member of a United Nations peacekeeping force in Macedonia in 1994.




http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/world/asia/09pakistan.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2


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## ajtr

> US denies cutting contacts
> ........
> ........



usa has got itself caught into the monkey-trap of afghanistan.Cutting ties will only harm its interests and it WOT.usa likes it or not it has to listen to pakistan on Davis case and let the pakistani courts decide his sentence.All noise making from usa will only harm it.


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## ajtr

Solomon2 said:


> Under international law Pakistan's Foreign Office has jurisdiction and cannot refer to the courts!


you ve totally ignored my question regarding david headley.


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## Cynic Waheed

Solomon2 said:


> Under international law Pakistan's Foreign Office has jurisdiction and cannot refer to the courts!


 
That is crap! My dad has been a diplomat for 25 years in the Embassy of Pakistan. once He had an accident in syria, on his private car and did not have proper documentation on him. He was taken to police station and was not allowed to go home until their FO confirmed his status. And that was through their local magistrate court that let him go. And this happened in a country that has brotherly relations with us and my dad wasnt a hitman on an espionage mission. 

So please let us do our work and spare us from ur utter bullshit. Immunity needs to be determined by the host country. Just because usa says he is an angel so we shd all believe it?! Let our FO determine what his status is and our authorities establish why was he carring spy equipment and well let him go. have the patience to respect our laws cuz thats what u expect from us when we are in ur country.

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## Cynic Waheed

ajtr said:


> you ve totally ignored my question regarding david headley.


 
Expect no resonable answer mate! One set of rules for americans, and other for the rest of the world.


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## Spring Onion

Solomon2 said:


> Under international law Pakistan's Foreign Office has jurisdiction and cannot refer to the courts!


 
The foreign office did NOT refer the case to court so your lame excuse is failed . on the other hand the court has the jurisdiction to summon FO and argue under judicial rules.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Apologies if this has been posted already:
*
The smoking gun​* 
Asif Ezdi
Wednesday, February 09, 2011

The US authorities continue to issue contradictory statements concerning the Raymond Davis case. They seem to have taken Albert Einstein quite literally when he said, If the facts dont fit the theory, change the facts. Subsequently, the Americans have tried to change the facts of the case in three important respects.

First, Davis was initially described as a staff member of the US Consulate General in Lahore. Then, without explanation, this was changed and he was said to be a member of the administrative and technical staff of the Embassy.

Second, on January 27, Crowley, the State Department Spokesman, denied that the killers name was Raymond Davis. Then last week, a spokeswoman for the US embassy said Crowley had not denied that the name was Raymond Davis.

Third, the US Embassy has revised its account of the circumstances in which Davis killed the two Pakistanis. The US Embassys press release of January 29 said he was confronted by two armed men on motorcycles who he had every reason to believe meant him bodily harm. Then, on February 3, the US Embassy said that the two Pakistanis had been killed following an attack on the diplomat by armed assailants. Being confronted by armed men, as everyone knows, is not the same as being attacked by them. According to another account of the US Embassy, Davis was not even confronted by the two young men. The British newspaper, Daily Telegraph, reported on the basis of information provided by the US Embassy that the two men had pulled alongside Davis on a motorbike at traffic lights. He saw that one of them had a gun. Apparently fearing that he was about to be robbed, he opened fire, killing both. The claim that they had criminal backgrounds has not been proved. Even if it is true, Davis could not have known about it. Even if he had, he did not have the license to shoot them down.

To confuse matters further, the US Embassy has been using the term diplomat and member of the administrative and technical staff (of the Embassy) interchangeably to describe the killer. As anyone who has read the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Convention knows, the two are entirely different categories. The term diplomat can only be used for a member of the diplomatic staff, which by definition, a member of the administrative and technical staff, is not.

Yet, it is correct, as the Embassy maintains, that under Article 37 of the Convention, a member of the administrative and technical staff of the Embassy enjoys the same immunity from criminal jurisdiction that a diplomat does. The central issue therefore is whether Davis was a member of the US Embassys administrative and technical staff. Whether he holds a diplomatic passport from his government or was issued a diplomatic or official visa by Pakistani authorities is immaterial.

The main argument used by the US in support of its claim to immunity for Davis is that the Embassy notified the Foreign Ministry on January 20, 2010 that he had been assigned to the mission as a member of its administrative and technical staff. The fact that his name had been notified would ordinarily qualify him for being treated as a member of the Embassys administrative and technical staff. But in this case, there are four reasons why this claim cannot be accepted.

First, the Foreign Ministry asked the Embassy to provide some further information about Davis before issuing an identity card to him as a member of the Embassy staff. The Embassy did not provide the necessary clarifications.

Second, Davis name was not included in the list of Embassy staff given to the Foreign Ministry on January 25, 2011, two days before the shooting, apparently, because at that time he was assigned to the Lahore Consulate General. This list superseded the earlier notification that he was a member of the Embassy staff. He was put on a revised list of Embassy staff submitted a day after the incident only to enable him to claim diplomatic immunity.

Third, the Embassys press release issued a day after the shooting described him as a consular employee. This is the most authoritative statement on his status.

Fourth, and most importantly, the man has a fake identity. Whatever his true name is, it is not Raymond Davis. The notification of this name by the US Embassy does not therefore confer any immunity on the person who carried out the shooting.

The US Embassy is right about one thing though. It is for the Foreign Ministry to make a determination on the status of the person who goes by the name of Raymond Davis. This determination, as the Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act of 1972 lays down, is to be treated as final and conclusive.

The Foreign Ministry and the Punjab government must also forcefully take up the case of the third Pakistani who was killed when he was run over by an SUV of the US Consulate General sent to help Davis. US refusal to cooperate in the investigation is a flagrant breach of the Vienna Conventions and our failure to press them harder is simply unforgivable. The federal government and the Punjab government both share the responsibility for this.

The US is obviously deeply perturbed at the fact that Davis is in Pakistani custody. The equipment and weapons he was carrying leave no doubt that he was engaged in unauthorised undercover activity. The people of Pakistan have long suspected that the hundreds of armed men who roam their streets under the US diplomatic umbrella and others who work behind the walls of US missions are here as part of some sinister plan against the countrys security. Now there is a smoking gun to strengthen these suspicions and it has a name  or alias: Raymond Davis.

These suspicions could have been dispelled if the Americans had not raised hell over his arrest. Instead, Washington has resorted to crude threats. Hillary Clinton telephoned Zardari reportedly to convey to him that the US is losing patience. This is familiar language. Powerful states employ it to threaten those who do not comply with their demands. Last month, a senior US official publicly warned that US patience at Pakistans effort to block negotiation of a treaty to ban the production of fissile material was running out. (Historically, the most famous use of the term was by Hitler. In a speech in September 1938, he demanded the cession of Sudetenland to Germany. My patience, he warned, has run out. Four days later, the Munich Agreement was signed permitting him to annex Sudetenland.)

It has been suggested by some of our analysts that if we do not release Davis, Hillary Clinton might not smile as broadly as she did at her last meeting with Shah Mahmood. That is possible. But we can live with that. I am sure Shah Mahmood can live with it too. Zardaris visit to Washington could be postponed, though it is unlikely. Even if it is, it will be no tragedy. Whether Zardari will be prepared for the shock is another matter.

But the so-called strategic dialogue or strategic partnership between the two countries is not under threat. The US needs this relationship as much as we do. It is not for love of the Pakistani people that the US is providing military and economic assistance to us. The Americans are doing so to serve their own national interests.

The government will do a great service not only to the nation but also to itself if it does not bow to US demands on Davis. It will give some credibility to our claim of being a sovereign country and do a lot of good to national self-esteem. God knows we need it badly. Countries that succumb to the first signs of international pressure never attain their national goals. Our problem is that our ruling class and the liberal elite allied with them are very comfortable in their cocoons and will risk nothing that could even remotely jeopardize their cushy life style.



The writer is a former member of the Pakistan Foreign Service.

Email: asifezdi@yahoo.com

The smoking gun

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## Stealth

LOL I SAID THIS YESTURDAY AND NO ONE PASS COMMENT ON MY THREAD (Conference Agenda) in same section and today THIS NEWS ! LOL


THIS IS WHAT I SAID YESTURDAY

*
Gool Meez Conference..

Agenda:

Raymond Davis

Raymond Davis

Raymond Davis



Tum b khaoo ham b khatay hain! tum apnay baywakoofoon ko sanmbhaloo... ham apnay baywakofoon ko sanmbhaaltay hain... na tum pump karoo apnay logooon ko na ham karengay!

warna AMERICA hamare **** kay rakhdayga! sedhay ALFAAZ may!

Army - Govt ALL DEPENDS ON USA! Directly straight forward!

1, American budget coming on way in April... if this Raymond Davis issue not resolve .. AID will be SHUTDOWN!

2, Army Collation fund already STOP 400 M$$ already HOLD!

3, Army Military funds already STOP!

4, 1.5 B Kerry AID HOLD ON!

DEAR PAKISTAN AND PAKISTAN GOVT - ARMY ALL DEPEND ON US!

TODAY I BET ON THIS!
this so called damn **** Conference just to CALM DOWN SITUATION AND HAND OVER THIS DAVIS UNCLE BACK TO UNCLE SAM! otherwise Uncle sam will **** u with in SECONDS!

and he already DOES!

GOVT of this nation continously FOOLING WHOLE NATION AND STILL GOING ON!*

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## A1Kaid

Pakistan should hurry up and punish this criminal. Stop wasting time, get this guy while Pakistan has him. Justice for the widow and victims.




US will eventually get over it and move on, Afghanistan card is in Pakistan's hand.


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## ashok321

Just do a poll:

Do you think RD would be let off without a trial?

And 90% would vote YES....


And those of others who vote negative would be known as immotional, ignorant, who do not know how international power matrix works in today´s strategic relations.


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## ashok321

A1Kaid said:


> Pakistan should hurry up and punish this criminal. Stop wasting time, get this guy while Pakistan has him. Justice for the widow and victims.
> 
> 
> 
> Revenge for Dr. Aafia Sidiqui
Click to expand...

 

What about drones which are more deadly, killing many, day in day out, UNLIKE Aafia, drones are responsible for Pakistan´s sovergnity, hounor and diginty?

Stop drones and do some more justice then.....


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## ashok321

> Immunity needs to be determined by the host country.



No doubt! But within the framework of Vienna convention, where Pakistan has signed the dotted lines willfully!


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## Solomon2

Cynic Waheed said:


> That is crap! My dad has been a diplomat for 25 years in the Embassy of Pakistan. once He had an accident in syria, on his private car and did not have proper documentation on him. He was taken to police station and was not allowed to go home until their FO confirmed his status.


Yep, in the police station. He was there only a matter of hours, right?



> Let our FO determine what his status is -


They know.



> ...and our authorities establish why was he carring spy equipment -


Under diplomatic immunity he can't be held during an investigation.



Cynic Waheed said:


> Expect no resonable answer mate! One set of rules for americans, and other for the rest of the world.


Yeah, it seems everyone other than Americans gets treated properly.



Jana said:


> The foreign office did NOT refer the case to court so your lame excuse is failed . on the other hand the court has the jurisdiction to summon FO and argue under judicial rules.


The FO says it is deferring stating Davis' diplomatic immunity to the court.


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## DV RULES

*Stealth*

you are right, yesterday morning when Asif Zardari called for Goolmaiz Conference, it was clear what is gonna be happen. 

It seems like GOP already has loosed his T''''''''! in this case. So lets see what will happen next?


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## TOPGUN

The sad part is prob nothing will happen and this bastard will go back home free .. cuz of our courpt gov & there greed i say just fry the sucker & get it over with he needs to be punished for taking human life this will let Pakistan stand on its own feet and bring in a new gov that can lead the way for the nation as for this bastard i hope he dies in hell i know harsh words & GOD forgive me for that as i don't wish bad upon anyone but a person like this needs to be fried big time

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## SAUD-404

I think we should let the govt. to free him so we as a nation we could then stand against our corrupt govt. and bring those traitors down. ( aik teer se do sikaar)

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## American Pakistani

*Did Ray Davis Shoot Two Pakistani Agents?*
Pakistani Officials Claim American Killed Men Working for ISI

By NICK SCHIFRIN
Feb. 9, 2011 

The public narrative from the United States is simple: one of its diplomats in one of the most dangerous countries in the world was threatened by two men with guns, and the diplomat shot and killed them in self-defense. He sits in jail, "illegally detained," because he enjoys diplomatic immunity. 

But the version of events told by multiple Pakistani officials -- and adamantly denied by the U.S. State Department -- is utterly different. 

The four Pakistani officials who spoke to ABC News on the condition of anonymity say that the two men who Raymond Davis killed in Lahore last month were working for Pakistan's premiere intelligence service, and they were following Davis because he was spying. 

If true, their story dramatically changes the nature of an incident that is already severely straining the two countries' already tumultuous relationship. Davis's detention is fraying the U.S. alliance with Pakistan, one of the most delicate and important in the world. U.S. and Pakistani officials both admit the fate of Raymond Davis could threaten an alliance that is critical to the war in Afghanistan and the fight against al Qaeda. 

According to the Pakistani officials, the two men had been sent to track Raymond Davis by the Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, which believed that Davis had crossed "a red line" and needed to be followed. 

In late January, those officials say, Davis was asked to leave an area of Lahore restricted by the military. His cell phone was tracked, said one government official, and some of his calls were made to the Waziristan tribal areas, where the Pakistani Taliban and a dozen other militant groups have a safe haven. Pakistani intelligence officials saw him as a threat who was "encroaching on their turf," the official said. 

U.S. officials dispute the story. Davis came to Pakistan on a diplomatic passport and is a "member of the technical and administrative staff" of the embassy in Islamabad. He therefore enjoys diplomatic immunity, which means he may not be tried for a crime in Pakistan. In public and in private, U.S. officials say they do not believe reports that the two men Davis shot and killed were working for the ISI. They say the men had robbed another person before they approached Davis' car. 

"We don't find [the reports] credible," P.J. Crowley, the State Department's spokesman, said at his daily press briefing on Monday. 

The U.S. says his detention is "illegal" and has put extreme pressure on Pakistan to release him. 

According to two officials close to Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari, the White House has threatened to shut the U.S.'s three consulates in Pakistan and postpone the official bilateral, strategic dialogue, as well as Zardari's upcoming trip to Washington, D.C. 

A senior U.S. official declined comment on the consulates, but acknowledged that any meeting between the Pakistani and U.S. governments would be dominated by the Davis case right now -- making most bilateral meetings useless. 

Last weekend Secretary of State Hillary Clinton canceled a meeting with Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, according to two U.S. officials.

Davis was traveling through a lower middle class part of Lahore on Thursday, Jan. 27, when the incident took place. The men he shot had been following him for at least two hours, one of the Pakistani officials claimed, and recorded some of his movements on their cell phone cameras. Davis has a U.S. Special Forces background and runs Hyperion Protective Consultants, LLC, a company that provides "loss and risk management professionals." 

The U.S. embassy in Islamabad refused to respond to questions about why Davis was armed, who he had been calling, or whether he was found in a sensitive part of the Lahore cantonment. 

That the ISI sent the equivalent of two hired guns to trail Davis is a sign that the relationship between the U.S. and Pakistani intelligence agencies is at a low point, according to all four officials quoted in this article. In October, the ISI helped reveal the name of the CIA station chief -- inadvertently, according to a separate, senior Pakistani official -- forcing the station chief to leave the country. 

The two men's alleged connection to the intelligence services was first reported by a Pakistani newspaper, the Express Tribune. 

The U.S. has also threatened Pakistan's military with cutting off some of its aid if Davis is not released. Last week, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Rep. Buck McKeon, R.-California, traveled to Pakistan and met with Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, the Pakistan Army chief of staff, as well as Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani. 

McKeon and the congressional delegation pointed out that U.S. anger could extend to the floor of the House if Davis is not released &#8211; and that could threaten the Pakistani military's more than $2 billion in aid per year. 

McKeon said that he "could foresee a member of Congress coming to the floor and offering an amendment to strike military funding for Pakistan," an aide to the House Armed Services Committee told ABC News.

The U.S. officials who deny that the men Davis shot were intelligence officials believe Davis is being held despite his diplomatic immunity because of fears that releasing him might cause domestic unrest. He is being held in Lahore, the capital of Punjab province, where Zardari's chief political opposition controls the provincial assembly. Some of the government's political opponents -- as well as some parts of the Pakistani media -- benefit from stories that suggest U.S. contractors or spies operate throughout the country. 

The Pakistani officials agreed with that, acknowledging that Davis' release could at least temporarily weaken the federal government and spark protests in Lahore and perhaps across the country. 

Adding to the pressure on Pakistan not to release Davis, the wife of one of the men he killed committed suicide Sunday by taking a tablet usually used to keep grain in a silo from going bad in the winter. When she first arrived at the hospital she was still able to speak, and her doctors allowed television reporters to interview her. She released a diatribe of hate to describe why she swallowed the tablet. 

"I do not expect any justice from this government," Shumaila Kanwal said. "That is why I want to kill myself. 

"I want blood for blood," she said. "The way my husband was shot, his killer should be shot in the same fashion." 

Last Thursday, Davis appeared in court without a translator and without prior notification to the U.S., the Islamabad embassy said in a statement. U.S. officials say those events convinced them Davis could not receive a fair trial in Pakistan. The judge extended his detention for another eight days. He is next scheduled to appear in court on Friday, Feb. 9.


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## American Pakistani

http://http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ray-davis-shooting-pakistan/story?id=12869411&page=1

Link.


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## ashok321

SAUD-404 said:


> I think we should let the govt. to free him so we as a nation we could then stand against our corrupt govt. and bring those traitors down. ( aik teer se do sikaar)


 

Timely info:



> Islamabad: A parliamentary panel has decided to begin construction of luxury suites for Pakistani MPs at a whopping cost of Rs 3 billion, despite an opposition leader objecting to the project as the country was facing a financial crunch.



India has more such problems.
Good thing about Pakistan is that it is ruled by its own ethnic people, such is not the case of pathetic India, which is ruled by foreigner Sonia, who is looting India.


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## W.11

*



The public narrative from the United States is simple: one of its diplomats in one of the most dangerous countries in the world was threatened by two men with guns, and the diplomat shot and killed them in self-defense. He sits in jail, "illegally detained," because he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Click to expand...

*
ask these americans to define iraq invasion in those simple words???..

things are not that simple in this world...


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## eagle20054

Raymond Davis Interrogation By Punjab Police







he is a spy?

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## Solomon2

TOPGUN said:


> The sad part is prob nothing will happen and this bastard will go back home free -


Not quite. He is still subject to U.S. law. It's possible Davis can be prosecuted in the U.S. [/QUOTE]

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## CardSharp

Solomon2 said:


> Not quite. He is still subject to U.S. law. It's possible Davis can be prosecuted in the U.S.


 
And Romans are only subject to Roman law.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Seems like Najam and his crew are not on the same page..............


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## WAQAS119

eagle20054 said:


> Raymond Davis Interrogation By Punjab Police
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he is a spy?


 
*At 4:33 he clearly says that he is an contractor! Any doubts now?*


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## ashok321

Solomon2 said:


> Not quite. He is still subject to U.S. law. It's possible Davis can be prosecuted in the U.S.


 

No way Jose, he is a probable CIA operative!


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## Cynic Waheed

Solomon2 said:


> Yep,
> 
> in the police station. He was there only a matter of hours, right? .



Wrong. They kept him for 3 days as he had hit one of their ministers and like I said he dint have proper documentation on him and they had initially registered a case on him which had to be resolved by their courts. After clearing from their FO they granted him immunity. 



Solomon2 said:


> Yep,
> 
> They know.





They know he is not a diplomat and there silence only means they are being arm twisted into accepting what is not true. 



Solomon2 said:


> Under diplomatic immunity he can't be held during an investigation.



it can be unless the person in questionnis an ambassador of an Embassay Or a counsellor. Other staff of a mission is subject to limited immunity. And full immunity never applies to council staff at all. Only embassy staff have some sort of previlege. 


Solomon2 said:


> Yeah, it seems everyone other than Americans gets treated properly.



Ha! Dint think itl come down to this an American complaining they dont get treated fairly, when they dont think twice before killing our civilians. Am I dreaming here or what?.[/QUOTE]

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

If these two people who died---why did their families not come out that they were ISI personale---even the wife on her death bed didnot say anything relating to that.

Bottomline---even if they are ISI---pak should act as if they were not and deal with the issue as such---to admit to it, creates other issues.

Also---writing up a police Chalan in this case right away shows immaturity on the part of the pakistanis---leaking of material and pictures that he was carrying also showed immaturity by the administration---. 

That happened due to the taliban lover minister Sanaullah and Sharif brothers---the Sharif bros did it to get concessions from peoples party---Rana sanaullah did it because of his hatred of america.

Neither one of them thought about the consequences that the nation will face---. 

It were the personal grudges and personal glory that came out in the forefront---pakistan's welfare was put on the back burner.

Now was the time to swallow it---take credit and cash the benefits---. You had U S in the corner---made them look bad---made them apologize and then take what is offered.

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## Veeru

*Pakistan defence photos found in US official's camera*

*Islamabad, Feb 9 (IANS) Prosecutors have recommended registering an espionage case against US official Raymond Davis, who shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, after police retrieved from his camera photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations, including those of army bunkers on the eastern border with India.*

Raymond Davis was arrested for fatally shooting two Pakistani motorcyclists in a busy marketplace of Lahore Jan 27.

'Keeping in view the nature of the case it is strongly recommended that a case of espionage be registered against Davis,' the prosecution branch of the Punjab police has written in an official letter to the investigation branch.

'During the course of investigation, police retrieved photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations from Davis's camera,' a source told The Express Tribune.

'Photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan Army's bunkers on the eastern border with India were found in the camera,' the source was quoted as saying.

A digital camera, a pistol and a phone tracker were recovered from Davis after his arrest.

The source said that the Punjab government considers Davis a security risk after the recovery of the photos of sensitive installations.

The US has scaled up pressure on Pakistan for the release of Raymond Davis by suspending bilateral engagements. The US insists that Davis enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Diplomatic sources has said the dispute could impact three major events planned this year -- President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to Washington, the next round of US-Pakistan strategic dialogue and trilateral talks involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the US.

An official told the daily that Davis's name did not figure on a list of US diplomats presented by the US embassy to the ministry of foreign affairs Jan 25.

*However, his name figures in another list submitted by the embassy to the ministry just a day after the Lahore shooting. *

Pakistan defence photos found in US official's camera

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## ashok321

Although its off topic, but see how US is a linchpin, as for as Pakistan is concerned:




> ISLAMABAD: Slain Pakistan People's Party leader Benazir Bhutto was given an assurance by the "highest authorities" in Pakistan and the US that she would be the next prime minister after the 2008 general elections, according to a media report on Wednesday.
> 
> Data retrieved from Bhutto's two BlackBerry phones, which were recently found by the staff at her home in Karachi, revealed the "firm assurance" given to her by authorities in Pakistan *and the US* that she would be the next premier, The Express Tribune newspaper quoted its sources as saying.




So how do you think Pakistan wont let go RD????
¿¿¿¿¿

It means US is a pupeteer right?


----------



## ashok321

Aston-Martin said:


> you bhartis stink and smell here........ mods please ban bhartis from this thread, for annoying us again and again....
> 
> this is why pakistanis are so annoyed of bhartis here and internet, please its my plea to not contribute if ur posts are not thoughtful, please again


 

Did not you see I criticised India and its policies - which are not right, corruption included?


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## American Pakistani

It is clear he was a spy, police found photos of sensitive areas and defence installations, including army bunkers on the eastern border with India, strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar.


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## W.11

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If these two people who died---why did their families not come out that they were ISI personale---even the wife on her death bed didnot say anything relating to that.
> 
> Bottomline---even if they are ISI---pak should act as if they were not and deal with the issue as such---to admit to it, creates other issues.
> 
> Also---writing up a police Chalan in this case right away shows immaturity on the part of the pakistanis---leaking of material and pictures that he was carrying also showed immaturity by the administration---.
> 
> That happened due to the taliban lover minister Sanaullah and Sharif brothers---the Sharif bros did it to get concessions from peoples party---Rana sanaullah did it because of his hatred of america.
> 
> Neither one of them thought about the consequences that the nation will face---.
> 
> It were the personal grudges and personal glory that came out in the forefront---pakistan's welfare was put on the back burner.
> 
> *Now was the time to swallow it---take credit and cash the benefits---. You had U S in the corner---made them look bad---made them apologize and then take what is offered.*


 
and humiliate pakistan and pakistanis???

americans kill pakistanis is ok, is pakistani life so low valued??
what if your son was killed by that terrorist??

would you take credit and cash and all benefits that were offered and remain silent??? u hypocrite?? and what hypocrite traitor pakistani writes those above lines, didnt you smell some stink in those lines... i hate these types of american pakistanis


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## RescueRanger

More hyperbole. ISI is not some halwa, that you can shoot two of it's agents and just waltz on your merry way.

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## FreekiN

American Pakistani said:


> It is clear he was a spy, police found photos of sensitive areas and defence installations, including army bunkers on the eastern border with India, strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar.


 
Source please.


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## Awesome

Anybody wondered, where is Raymond Davis's wife, brother, sister, mother, father, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, schoolmates, teacher - heck nothing from his colleagues either.

There has been no personal information on Raymond Davis that has been made available to the public yet. The only relative of Davis has been the US Embassy. Journalists are unable to go to say his wife and ask him "Hey is this man in the pictures, your husband?

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## MastanKhan

Aston-Martin said:


> and humiliate pakistan and pakistanis???
> 
> americans kill pakistanis is ok, is pakistani life so low valued??
> what if your son was killed by that terrorist??
> 
> would you take credit and cash and all benefits that were offered and remain silent??? u hypocrite?? and what hypocrite traitor pakistani writes those above lines, didnt you smell some stink in those lines... i hate these types of american pakistanis


 
Hi,

My post upset you---seems like it did---. Should I respond in the same coin as you did and decalre you a traitor---because you want to cause unrest and unstability amongst the citizen in these desperate time---when there are two major enemy armies right across from our borders---ready to avail any oppurtunity---.

If you are asking for agitation and not calmness then you are also instigating an enemy attack---that enemy attack may effect the position and integrity of our sensitive assets as well---now why would a good pakistani want to do something like that.

Why would a good pakistani citizen participate in creating a scenario that might jeopardize our asets in these tumulous times---I understand pride, honour and dignity---but at what price---.

If you lose your sovereignity---you got nothing left---if you lose your major assets---you have nothing left except for pride---and you know what----pride is for fools---you can only swallow it but can't eat it.

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## W.11

Asim Aquil said:


> Anybody wondered, where is Raymond Davis's wife, brother, sister, mother, father, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, schoolmates, teacher - heck nothing from his colleagues either.
> 
> There has been no personal information on Raymond Davis that has been made available to the public yet. The only relative of Davis has been the US Embassy. Journalists are unable to go to say his wife and ask him "Hey is this man in the pictures, your husband?


 
every damn body left this pig stinky terrorist in disgust!!! his girl friend, his mother, his friends...


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Asim Aquil said:


> Anybody wondered, where is Raymond Davis's wife, brother, sister, mother, father, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, schoolmates, teacher - heck nothing from his colleagues either.
> 
> There has been no personal information on Raymond Davis that has been made available to the public yet. The only relative of Davis has been the US Embassy. Journalists are unable to go to say his wife and ask him "Hey is this man in the pictures, your husband?


 
That is because he is not a diflomat...................


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## ashok321

Asim Aquil said:


> Anybody wondered, where is Raymond Davis's wife, brother, sister, mother, father, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, schoolmates, teacher - heck nothing from his colleagues either.
> 
> There has been no personal information on Raymond Davis that has been made available to the public yet. The only relative of Davis has been the US Embassy. Journalists are unable to go to say his wife and ask him "Hey is this man in the pictures, your husband?


 
More reason to reiterate that he is an operative!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> Anybody wondered, where is Raymond Davis's wife, brother, sister, mother, father, friends, girlfriends/boyfriends, schoolmates, teacher - heck nothing from his colleagues either.
> 
> There has been no personal information on Raymond Davis that has been made available to the public yet. The only relative of Davis has been the US Embassy. Journalists are unable to go to say his wife and ask him "Hey is this man in the pictures, your husband?


 
the whole case seems to have made more media sensation in Pakistan than in US. In fact, hardly and news here are talking much about it; New York Slimes had a brief little back-page article about the incident.


his family or his fellow ''consultants'' are more than welcome to speak out on the record. Seems they prefer (or have been briefed) to remain dumb and mute!


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## ashok321

Aston-Martin said:


> every damn body left this pig stinky terrorist in disgust!!! his girl friend, his mother, his friends...


 

Nobody left him!

Its CIA culture, when you are charged in an alien land as an operative - your home contacts are silent!

You wanna know his kith n kins?

Wait till he is west bound, and lands in the United States!


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## W.11

please somebody shut these bhartis up, so annying man 

not cool


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## ashok321

Aston-Martin said:


> please somebody shut these bhartis up, so annying man
> 
> not cool


 

You have option to ignore me, instead of dancing naked in the public for publicity n simpathy


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## Shameel

The video of Raymond Davis, after his arrest, telling the police that he's a *consultant * with the *U.S. Consulate in Lahore* (does not even claim to be a diplomat) will significantly weaken the U.S. case that he has diplomatic immunity as consultants and consular officers do not have diplomatic immunity for murder.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*I spy*






_The writer is a standup comedian sami.shah@tribune.com.pk_

Raymond Davis, it turns out, was no Jason Bourne. My entire life, a heady mix of popular culture and conspiracy theory, described all American secret agents as Silent Warriors Who Kill Efficiently. If Raymond Davis actually is a spy, placed by the US to commit acts of espionage, then I am sorely disappointed. Sure he killed with efficiency, nary a bullet wasted, but you never see Matt Damon pumping someone full of bullets, taking a picture with his cell phone and then getting caught by an enraged mob. The spies of my imagination would have snapped a neck or two, vaulted onto the nearest rooftop and then disappeared into the night. Maybe pinching a vital nerve cluster of any witnesses along the way that would have caused memory loss and an overwhelming sense of awe.

Instead, all we have is a pudgy white guy who looks terribly frightened, as angry Lahoris press in on him from every side. Of course, its a given that this case is always going to reveal less than it really is. Were the two boys killed actually spies? Is Raymond Davis a spy? Am I a spy? Are you? Also, are we in violation of the Vienna Convention? What is the Vienna Convention? Where is Vienna anyway? Should we just hand him back? Should we swap him for Dr Aafia? Should we tie him to a drone and airdrop him onto the violent streets of Sialkot?

These are the things we do know: Raymond Davis is American. Which means that Pakistanis are going to overreact in every possible way to this. Protests against him have so far been small, but should he be given a one-way ticket back to America on the next PIA (or is it Turkish Airways) flight, then watch people lose their collective minds. We also know that since Raymond Davis is American, the US will handle this in the worst possible way. All the cultural sensitivity seminars their government attends and efforts at improving their image will be completely forgotten as they resort to overbearing bullying. You can expect country music songs about him and a feature film starring George Clooney by summer. In 3D no less. They have already threatened to cut off our foreign aid supply, which as everyone knows, we are addicted to worse than Afghan heroin.

There is a silver lining to this whole debacle though: For the first time in ages, Liberals and Conservatives agree on something. Both groups have been at odds with each other for a while now, disagreeing on everything from the blasphemy law to the role of Islam in the state to whether or not Hamid Mir understands what a Fascist is. Yet, on this one issue, both agree that the final decision should be made by rule of law. Let the courts decide Raymond Daviss final fate. If they decide to punish him here, American pressure and Vienna Convention be damned, then watch Liberals and Conservatives hugging on the streets. If the LHC decides to hand him back then watch Conservatives burn creatively designed effigies while Liberals write acerbic blog entries against America. Its irrelevant that, constitutionally speaking, the final decision on this issue should actually come from the Pakistan Foreign Office. Opportunities like this dont come very often. Lets not let details get in the way of this Liberal-Conservative union.

In the end though, only one person is to blame for all of this: Raymond Davis himself. If, like a proper spy, he had killed those two men using Karate and then transformed his car into a high-powered jet that flies him back to America, flight path managed by his spy-watch, then none of this would have happened.

Published in The Express TribuneThe Express Tribune, February 10th, 2011.


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## Shameel

ashok321 said:


> Nobody left him!
> 
> Its CIA culture, when you are charged in an alien land as an operative - your home contacts are silent!
> 
> You wanna know his kith n kins?
> 
> Wait till he is west bound, and lands in the United States!



Raymond Davis has a wife called Rebecca Davis. 

Raymond spent 10 years in the U.S. military, starting with basic training at Fort Benning, Ga., in 1993. He moved to special warfare training with the Third Special Forces Group at Fort Bragg, N.C., in 1998, and left the Army in 2003. As part of the U.S. military, he did a six-month stint as a member of a United Nations peacekeeping force in Macedonia in 1994. 

Raymond, along with his wife, Rebecca, set up Hyperion Protective Services in 2006 in Nevada to provide security consultancy services to the U.S. government.

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## W.11

ashok321 said:


> You have option to ignore me, instead of dancing naked in the public for publicity n simpathy


 
no please i have no time for reading bullshit or thumping on ignore button, its better if u all bhartis stay away with your rubbish


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## ashok321

Shameel said:


> will significantly weaken the U.S. case that he has diplomatic immunity as consultants and consular officers do not have diplomatic immunity for murder.


 
There is no legal fight, neither would it come to it. There wont be any trial.

Its world politics, and Pakistan as a weaker nation vis a vis the super power, will have no option but to surrender RD to US pressure.

Above is the reality...

Love me or leave me that is...


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## ashok321

Aston-Martin said:


> no please i have no time for reading bullshit or thumping on ignore button, its better if u all bhartis stay away with your rubbish


 

What is rubish to you might be a Mcchicken nugget to others!

Why dont you understand and tone down your tenor and temper?



> "what is death of a deer may be a life of a lion"



Educate yourself more!


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## W.11

ashok321 said:


> There is no legal fight, neither would it come to it. There wont be any trial.
> 
> Its world politics, and Pakistan as a weaker nation vis a vis the super power, will have no option but to surrender RD to US pressure.
> 
> Above is the reality...
> 
> Love me or leave me that is...


 
bhai kia aqal peh parda hai??? nikal yaha se sharaft se 

walk away please


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## Shameel

ashok321 said:


> There is no legal fight, neither would it come to it. There wont be any trial.
> 
> Its world politics, and Pakistan as a weaker nation vis a vis the super power, will have no option but to surrender RD to US pressure.


 
Well, U.S. "super power" must be on the decline since its "diplomat" has been under arrest in "weaker" Pakistan for 15 days and counting.

Also, since Raymond Davis was remanded into the custody of the Pakistani police by a Pakistani magistrate on 28 January 2011, the "legal fight" is already underway. How it ends, is a different matter.

I think what Pakistan is trying to do is to keep Raymond in jail for as long as possible.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Solomon2 said:


> Not quite. He is still subject to U.S. law. It's possible Davis can be prosecuted in the U.S.


[/QUOTE]

What are the legalities which could be invoked for a formal Judicial inquiry regarding this insane act by a murderous person in which the GOP has no fault but yet still is facing pressure. 
It will be the political death of anybody's Political carrier if he showed his sympathies in letting this criminal go.
IMHO hes not a diplomat, This has been confirmed from very very ,,VERY valid sources. If hed be a diplomat then it wouldnt have taken State Dept 12 days to confirm his diplomatic status.
Further in a good Democracy theres nothing stronger and beyond the reach of Law, Hope Uncle Sam abides by the very own Democracy lecture , which its so fond of giving to anybody whose at odds with it....!


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## ashok321

Shameel said:


> the "legal fight" is already underway. How it ends, is a different matter.


 

You should not be clueless as you are then.....

If you know foreign affairs, it was simple!


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## ashok321

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> What are the legalities which could be invoked for a formal Judicial inquiry regarding this insane act by a murderous person in which the GOP has no fault but yet still is facing pressure.
> It will be the political death of anybody's Political carrier if he showed his sympathies in letting this criminal go.


 

Legalities would be trashed by none other than GOP, the way India did, when Anderson of Union Carbide responsible for lakhs of people murder was set free!

Almost every country wants to be in the good books of USA - the USD printing nation.

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## Shameel

Mark my words...

Raymond Davis will remain in a Pakistani jail for at least 30 days. Don't expect him to get out before February 27.


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## ashok321

Shameel said:


> Mark my words...
> 
> Raymond Davis will remain in a Pakistani jail for at least 30 days. Don't expect him to get out before February 27.


 
Is 30 days in jail (joking with policemen, drinking nestle water, eating haleem) worth Pakistani awam´s anger and final settlement?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Shameel said:


> The video of Raymond Davis, after his arrest, telling the police that he's a *consultant * with the *U.S. Consulate in Lahore* (does not even claim to be a diplomat) will significantly weaken the U.S. case that he has diplomatic immunity as consultants and consular officers do not have diplomatic immunity for murder.


 
no that video makes our police look like chai-mittai entertainers;

they should have been numb, totally un-animated, and just gone about asking that which needed to be asked, filed and submitted in a professional manner expected of them.


damn, even in American detention centers and precincts im reasonably confident that they arent as ''accomodating'' --hell, i sure doubt they offer suspects bottled mineral water....


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Bhai, mashter ko pani nahi pucho gye to phir kys to ??


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## SMC

I am hearing that this guy was taking photos of the route leading to a major security or military building in Lahore, including entrances to the restricted areas. Apparently these photos were found in his camera and were shown on the news. Any info on this?


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## TOPGUN

I had a feeling this bastard was a spy and the two men killed by him were with ISI or some agency he is a spy and i say fry the bastard ASAP give him what he should get death row in hell

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## Cynic Waheed

What is it with Americans where on one hand they preach all over the world that free media and judiciary is what they stand for; and on the other hand when these free institues dont suit them they rant and whine like bit*hes. Bloody hypocrites! 

Im glad we have these institues in place. Even if US takes RD away, atleast the so called 'diplomats' of US will think twice before goin on a killing spree in Pak again. I hope we can get US as much frustrated as we possibly can before we eventually release the 'innocent' hitman. This is make sure next time special care is taken by people of this sort. RD, what an idiot, doesnt even know how to spy properly. Stupidity at its best!

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## W.11

TOPGUN said:


> I had a feeling this bastard was a spy and the two men killed by him were with ISI or some agency he is a spy and i say fry the bastard ASAP give him what he should get death row in hell


 
fry ashok as well


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## VelocuR

Is there Court appointment on Feb 11th to decide Davis' future, right? status pls.


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## Imran Khan

indian trolling is increased after update forum or i am wrong? mods in ko lagam kiyoon nhi dal rahy?

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## Cynic Waheed

RaptorRX707 said:


> Is there Court appointment on Feb 11th to decide Davis' future, right? status pls.


 
Yes, I believe on 11th the police will submit their final investigation. Not too sure if input from FO will be a part of that hearing though. Hope this helps.

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## Cynic Waheed

The vid posted here abt RD's confession doesnt play for some reason. Is it only me? Is there another link to that vid? Thanks.


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## Imran Khan

look at punjab police shamfully they dont know how to talk
diamond hi ker lo

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Imran Khan said:


> look at punjab police shamfully they dont know how to talk
> diamond hi ker lo


 
Khan Sahib what do you expect; they are hardly educated.


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## Imran Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Khan Sahib what do you expect; they are hardly educated.


 
sir jee they are blind corrupt idiots which and mafia more then police i hate pakistani police as much i can hate


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Imran Khan said:


> sir jee they are blind corrupt idiots which and mafia more then police i hate pakistani police as much i can hate


 
not always....Some are honest and good at what they do; as is always the case --you gotta weed out the honest people from the scum 

no matter how daunting a task it may seem


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## ashok321

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> -you gotta weed out the honest people from the scum
> 
> no matter how daunting a task it may seem






Lolum lol ji


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## iPhone

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If these two people who died---why did their families not come out that they were ISI personale---even the wife on her death bed didnot say anything relating to that.
> 
> Bottomline---even if they are ISI---pak should act as if they were not and deal with the issue as such---to admit to it, creates other issues.
> 
> Also---writing up a police Chalan in this case right away shows immaturity on the part of the pakistanis---leaking of material and pictures that he was carrying also showed immaturity by the administration---.
> 
> That happened due to the taliban lover minister Sanaullah and Sharif brothers---the Sharif bros did it to get concessions from peoples party---Rana sanaullah did it because of his hatred of america.
> 
> Neither one of them thought about the consequences that the nation will face---.
> 
> It were the personal grudges and personal glory that came out in the forefront---pakistan's welfare was put on the back burner.
> 
> *Now was the time to swallow it---take credit and cash the benefits---. You had U S in the corner---made them look bad---made them apologize and then take what is offered.*



bohut achay, I suppose, if your family member, god forbid, god forbid, was gunned down on the street, the first thought that would go through your mind would be, "now is the time to take credit and cash benefit."


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> In a real sense the country that sent the diplomat bears the blame, not the diplomat himself - and the diplomat can't be used as a punching bag, not unless the sending country waives immunity.


 
I disagree. You can't blame a country for an individual's actions. If a diplomat killed two people, that person needs to stand trial, not the country. The only thing the country can do is to waive immunity in good faith, so that justice can be served.

If the US lacks faith in the Pakistani judicial process, they can attach a stipulation to the immunity waiver requiring FBI (or whomever) working alongside Pakistani authorities in the case.


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## VCheng

Once Zardari meets with Nawaz Sharif, a few more pieces will move into position for the endgame for RD.

The inevitability of that solution should be accepted.


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## mshoaib61




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## Bilal Akhtar

I think the US needs to remember that when we cut off their nato supplies for a week their soldiers had run out of toilet paper.

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## mshoaib61

http://img844.imageshack.us/i/story1.gif/

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## Pak_Sher

US pretending to be Pakistan's has just been busted. This could be very futile or trust between Pakistan and US.


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## fallstuff

Notwithstanding the judicial proceedings the issue has entered the power play phase. Lets see who folds first.


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## monitor

All depends on how long Pakistan withstand on American pressure before they release the killer .Its the fate of small country that they can not take pressure of big countries over any misdeed they do.


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## Areesh

Imran Khan said:


> indian trolling is increased after update forum or i am wrong? mods in ko lagam kiyoon nhi dal rahy?


 
Nowadays number of mods have been increased but they only delete their posts and don't ban or suspend them even though how outrageous the troll is. As a result too much kachra and gund has now been collected on this forum.


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## Areesh

RescueRanger said:


> More hyperbole. ISI is not some halwa, that you can shoot two of it's agents and just waltz on your merry way.


 
Well may be. But I personally feel ISI is too glorified for no reason. Their performance has deteriorated a lot and I don't think any hostile agencies faces much difficulty in any of their anti-Pakistan activities. The psychotic paranoia of Bharatis is one thing but the fact is ISI is very much a halwa.


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## LeGenD

Shameel said:


> Well, U.S. "super power" must be on the decline since its "diplomat" has been under arrest in "weaker" Pakistan for 15 days and counting.
> 
> Also, since Raymond Davis was remanded into the custody of the Pakistani police by a Pakistani magistrate on 28 January 2011, the "legal fight" is already underway. How it ends, is a different matter.
> 
> I think what Pakistan is trying to do is to keep Raymond in jail for as long as possible.


Let us not resort to unproven assumptions here. Both Pakistan and USA had been through difficult times since 9/11 and both can learn a lesson or two from bad policies.

Point is that Davis has killed two people in Pakistan in open (road) where lot of people watched him. The matter is highly sensitive and serious. American pressure is building and Pakistan can resist up to a limit. Being a weaker nation among the two does have drawbacks.



Areesh said:


> Well may be. But I personally feel ISI is too glorified for no reason. Their performance has deteriorated a lot and I don't think any hostile agencies faces much difficulty in any of their anti-Pakistan activities. The psychotic paranoia of Bharatis is one thing but the fact is ISI is very much a halwa.


You have a point.

ISI is indeed a powerful group within Pakistan but it is hyped up a lot by enemies.


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

lionheart1 said:


> same way pakistan cannot survive without american aid and IMF money, think about it,


 
that is a misunderstanding with many people in Pakistan, especially the ruling elite of Pakistan.
- - Pakistan has everything needed for survival. Our agricultural production is more than our need. . We have Gold mines, Coal mines, Natural gas, Copper reserves etc. . 

We just don't have the determination to live without aid. .

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## LeGenD

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> that is a misunderstanding with many people in Pakistan, especially the ruling elite of Pakistan.
> - - Pakistan has everything needed for survival. Our agricultural production is more than our need. . We have Gold mines, Coal mines, Natural gas, Copper reserves etc. .
> 
> We just don't have the determination to live without aid. .


We have not developed adequate capabilities to fully tap our resources. Lack of will is also an issue.

Hence, our dependence upon foreign aid.


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## Awesome

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the whole case seems to have made more media sensation in Pakistan than in US. In fact, hardly and news here are talking much about it; New York Slimes had a brief little back-page article about the incident.
> 
> 
> his family or his fellow ''consultants'' are more than welcome to speak out on the record. Seems they prefer (or have been briefed) to remain dumb and mute!


 
Which is also suspicious... From their perspective, we've jailed an honest American hardworking IT guy, who went to Pakistan to serve US National interests and was attacked upon and in the course of defending himself killed his attackers...

This is the recipe of an American Hero and he is jailed for his heroism...

Why is this incident being shielded from the American masses? Who do they not want coming forward and saying "That guy? I played ball with him in high school! His name is..."

Egypt has come and gone... Its not an excuse any more.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is shielded for simple reasons----once the american public finds out what pak wants to do with that guy and the momentum catches up just like the new york mosque---they would want pakistani blood----.

Pakistanis can only brag about what they will do to him---the americans will do it real time to pakistan---pakistan and pakistanis are just digging a deeper grave for themselves---.

Out of habbit, pakistanis are playing with fire that they will have no control over once it starts to spread deep and wide.

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## MastanKhan

iPhone,

Thanks for the response----so far the only victim was the one run over by the car---the other two---not victims yet---. And you are right---my first thought would be revenge---I don't deny it---. But then what after that---.

What I want to say is that the moment Davis was taken into custody---there should have been a blanket put on any news leakage---and every thing should have been hushed up---.

Do you for a moment think that such a thing has not happened in the U S---where operatives from another country have not taken out american police officers and people from the agency----but you never hear about them----because there is no reason to rile up the public---do you think that it has never happened in russia or britain or germany or france. Yes it has---the police and the agencies take over----the news media gets a blackout---.

It is a normal practise in the rich cities and townships not to report news of robberies---minimize the news of horrendous murders---where the body parts have been cut apart.

My boy---I apologize---I keep forgetting that I am talking to my countrymen who have harldy been out of the country---and even if they do---they have no exposure of the outside.

This is not a matter of taking cash credit or benefits but in a way it is---remember the explosion of the chemical plant in india---where there were tens of thousand poor souls died of gas leakage and at that time chairman of the company was visiting india---there was a public outrage to arrest him and hang him---but he was let go---.

My goodman---first the nation needs to develop some character---then they can move ahead.


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## kugga

MastanKhan said:


> iPhone,
> 
> Thanks for the response----so far the only victim was the one run over by the car---the other two---not victims yet---. And you are right---my first thought would be revenge---I don't deny it---. But then what after that---.
> 
> What I want to say is that the moment Davis was taken into custody---there should have been a blanket put on any news leakage---and every thing should have been hushed up---.
> 
> Do you for a moment think that such a thing has not happened in the U S---where operatives from another country have not taken out american police officers and people from the agency----but you never hear about them----because there is no reason to rile up the public---do you think that it has never happened in russia or britain or germany or france. Yes it has---the police and the agencies take over----the news media gets a blackout---.
> 
> It is a normal practise in the rich cities and townships not to report news of robberies---minimize the news of horrendous murders---where the body parts have been cut apart.
> 
> My boy---I apologize---I keep forgetting that I am talking to my countrymen who have harldy been out of the country---and even if they do---they have no exposure of the outside.
> 
> This is not a matter of taking cash credit or benefits but in a way it is---remember the explosion of the chemical plant in india---where there were tens of thousand poor souls died of gas leakage and at that time chairman of the company was visiting india---there was a public outrage to arrest him and hang him---but he was let go---.
> 
> My goodman---first the nation needs to develop some character---then they can move ahead.


 
All those things what you have written about putting a blanket on to the crime are right to some extent, but tell me how can you to hide it from public when the murder took place in front of public. when the public knew, before even the state get to it, that the murderer is an American national.. 

It's the case when the police themselves don't know the reality about the murderer , whether he's a diplomat, a spy or just a foreign national... How can you hide in such a situation.

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## Nothing

kugga said:


> All those things what you have written about putting a blanket on to the crime are right to some extent, but tell me how can you to hide it from public when the murder took place in front of public. when the public knew, before even the state get to it, that the murderer is an American national..
> 
> It's the case when the police themselves don't know the reality about the murderer , whether he's a diplomat, a spy or just a foreign national... How can you hide in such a situation.


 
I am partially agree with Mr.MastanKhan. All countries do that .... blanket on all things which they don't want to share with public.

But in todays world with mobile phone in every hand .. it is difficult to hide something in big city like Lahore. But still GOP can dilute the news up to very much extent..like they are hiding about civilian death in drone attacks.... Gov. agencies have enough power to show big things really small ...


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## kugga

Nothing said:


> I am partially agree with Mr.MastanKhan. All countries do that .... blanket on all things which they don't want to share with public.
> 
> But in todays world with mobile phone in every hand .. it is difficult to hide something in big city like Lahore. But still GOP can dilute the news up to very much extent.*.like they are hiding about civilian death in drone attacks*.... Gov. agencies have enough power to show big things really small ...


 
O come on we all know about civilian deaths in drone attacks but we couldn't see that on tv coz they are highly remote areas.. it's very difficult to even reach there.. You cannot hide it when the crime is being done in front of almost a thousand witnesses, It's really difficult and and with a media like that in Pakistan it makes it further difficult to put a blanket on the bloody crime.

He was a spy and we want him hanged right there in the middle of qartaba chowk where he killed 3 civilians.


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## Nothing

kugga said:


> He was a spy and we want him hanged right there in the middle of qartaba chowk where he killed 3 civilians.


 
*He was a spy* Let court decide that...

*hanged right there in the middle of qartaba chowk where he killed 3 civilians* don't get sentimental ... try your best as citizen to get justice for murder of your fellow citizen from outsider....
But some times we don't have choice and power to do something right ....(even I dream to get those all billions $$$ from swiss bank and hand it over to poor people of India , but I can't) . Even I felt same when 26/11 happened in my beloved city Mumbai...

May be your heart is with those victim .. but from mind we all knows that David is going out of Pakistan sooner or later... 

I support is with you People in this case


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

*BREAKING NEWS:*

Look how Davis was treated after he was arrested. . 








Members who don't understand urdu or don't want to watch the video;

When Raymond was arrested he had a camera in his shoes and he thought of video taping the attitude of Punjab Police towards him.
But it turned out that instead of a harsh investigation which Raymond was expecting, the Punjab Police took very easy on him and was'nt the usual criminal investigation. .


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## Spring Onion

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is shielded for simple reasons----once the american public finds out what pak wants to do with that guy and the momentum catches up just like the new york mosque---they would want pakistani blood----.
> 
> Pakistanis can only brag about what they will do to him---the americans will do it real time to pakistan---pakistan and pakistanis are just digging a deeper grave for themselves---.
> 
> Out of habbit, pakistanis are playing with fire that they will have no control over once it starts to spread deep and wide.


 

And a free human born free wont take all his life to be a slave.

its time we should start playing with fire once and for all.



*You can't speak yesterday's language to the concerns of today.
Control the controllable*.

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## Spring Onion

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> *BREAKING NEWS:*
> 
> Look how Davis was treated after he was arrested. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Members who don't understand urdu or don't want to watch the video;
> 
> When Raymond was arrested he had a camera in his shoes and he thought of video taping the attitude of Punjab Police towards him.
> But it turned out that instead of a harsh investigation which Raymond was expecting, the Punjab Police took very easy on him and was'nt the usual criminal investigation. .


 
Professionally why they did not check his shoes ? they should stripped him for a thorough checking for any espionage equipment

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## Spring Onion

*Davis may also face espionage charge *

*
The Express Tribune

Davis may also face espionage charge
By Qaiser Butt
Published: February 9, 2011

Pakistani police escort arrested US national Raymond Davis (C) to a court in Lahore. PHOTO: AFP/FILE

ISLAMABAD: In an interesting twist to the Lahore double murder involving a US diplomatic official, prosecutors have recommended that an espionage case be also registered against him, sources said on Tuesday.

Raymond Davis is already facing charges for killing two Pakistani motorcyclists in a busy marketplace of Lahore on January 27.

Keeping in view the nature of the case it is strongly recommended that a case of espionage be registered against Davis, the prosecution branch of the Punjab police has written in an official letter to the investigation branch.
*
During the course of investigation, police retrieved photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations from Davis camera, a source told The Express Tribune requesting anonymity. Photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan Armys bunkers on the Eastern border with India were found in the camera, the source added.*

The police had recovered a digital camera, a Glock pistol and a phone tracker along with a charger from Davis after his arrest. The Punjab government considers Davis a security risk after the recovery of the photos of sensitive installations, said the source.

The Obama administration has been pressuring Pakistan to release Davis who, according to it, is a member of the administrative and technical staff of the mission and therefore enjoys diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention.

But Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif has told American diplomats that the matter is sub judice and only the Lahore High Court (LHC) would decide whether or not Davis was entitled to diplomatic immunity, an official source told The Express Tribune.

Sharif made the statement at a recent meeting with the US diplomats who sought Davis immediate release.

Citing a letter written by Interior Minister Rehman Malik to the Punjab government, the diplomats said that Davis had diplomatic immunity.

Sharif, however, denied his government had received any letter from the interior minister, according to the sources. Sharif advised the diplomats to wait for the LHC ruling on the diplomatic status of Davis.

A security official told The Express Tribune that Davis name did not figure on a list of US diplomats presented by the American embassy to the ministry of foreign affairs on Jan 25. But interestingly, his name figured prominently on another list submitted by the embassy to the ministry on Jan 28.

Diplomatic source told The Express Tribune that the foreign ministrys viewpoint would be presented before the LHC whenever asked by the court.

Published in The Express Tribune, February 9th, 2011.

Davis may also face espionage charge &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## Awesome

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is shielded for simple reasons----once the american public finds out what pak wants to do with that guy and the momentum catches up just like the new york mosque---they would want pakistani blood----.
> 
> Pakistanis can only brag about what they will do to him---the americans will do it real time to pakistan---pakistan and pakistanis are just digging a deeper grave for themselves---.
> 
> Out of habbit, pakistanis are playing with fire that they will have no control over once it starts to spread deep and wide.


 
No pain no gain... I wouldn't say this is our habit. Our habit is more like cowering to America's demands. It is a wrong assumption that Pakistanis want to do this n that to Raymond. No official person, has said that. Heck we are even okay with him being released. But it should be an order of the court, not a demand of the USG.

We have a habit of thinking like "Oye America kya kardega? Hum yeh kareinge toh America woh kahay ga, phir hum yeh kaheinge, toh woh, falana kahega, phir hum yun karne ki koshish kareinge toh America toh yeh yeh kardega".

This is against the natural order of human beings, they have to be free to voice their protests.

*Munh aayi baat na rehndi ae
*What&#8217;s on the tongue must be said
*Jhoott aakhaan kuch bachda ae
*I speak falsely and I get something
*Sach aakhaan paambar machda ae
*I speak the truth and there are explosions
*Donhaan galaan toun ji jachda ae
*I am afraid of both outcomes
*Jach jach ke jibhaan kehndi ae
*Apprehensively my tongue quivers and says
*Munh aayi baat na rehndi ae
*What&#8217;s on the tongue must be said

Fine America is strong, but its not God We won't be casted into hell for having a problem with what it always does.

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## JonAsad

Jana said:


> And a free human born free wont take all his life to be a slave.
> 
> its time we should start playing with fire once and for all.
> 
> *You can't speak yesterday's language to the concerns of today.
> Control the controllable*.



People outside of Pakistan, still wants us to be a slave--
Its the people inside Pakistan-- that wants change-- they are the ones who are dealing and suffering with it every day-- they should be listened too- they are the real stake holders-- they want out! of this slavery and begging business-- they dont want to feel that their blood is cheap-- Die like unknowns and no body cares-- American Drones can kill them-- Even Afghan forces can kill them-- TTP terrorists can kill them-- and now even some sick diplomat can kill them-- and *get away with it-*- At least if we have to Die one way or another-- we want to die with Honor and Dignity-- not like Beggars--

The time is now or never-- Prosecute him and punish him according to the laws--

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## LeGenD

Glorious Resolve said:


> People outside of Pakistan, still wants us to be a slave--
> Its the people inside Pakistan-- that wants change-- they are the ones who are dealing and suffering with it every day-- they should be listened too- they are the real stake holders-- they want out! of this slavery and begging business-- they dont want to feel that their blood is cheap-- Die like unknowns and no body cares-- American Drones can kill them-- Even Afghan forces can kill them-- TTP terrorists can kill them-- and now even some sick diplomat can kill them-- and *get away with it-*- At least if we have to Die one way or another-- we want to die with Honor and Dignity-- not like Beggars--
> 
> The time is now or never-- Prosecute him and punish him according to the laws--


OK! Our people want change. One should ask them that what have they planned for 'setting a stage' for the change they demand?

A large portion of population is illiterate. This portion has no proper sense of right and wrong and can be easily manipulated. This portion continues to vote corrupt people. And then we have _parhe likhe jahil_ too. Problem is that our nation is filled with *emotional fools* and does little planning to address issues plaguing it.

We have developed a 'false sense of security and hope' in our minds. What we could not become; we like to boast about such capabilities with words. *We are in a state of denial.*

The most important thing for us is to educate the masses and destroy vadera-ism. Who will want this to happen? A visionary leader. So how will such a person come to power? Any strategy? 

We want change and justice, right? How?

*WE* are responsible for what is happening to us today: Drone Attacks, guys like Davis roaming in Pakistan, leaders like Zardari & Co, wide spread corruption, TTP, bullying of America etc...

Despite of our extreme level of pathetic-ness, you expect outsiders to respect our customs and not meddle in our affairs?

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## DV RULES

MastanKhan said:


> iPhone,
> 
> Thanks for the response----so far the only victim was the one run over by the car---the other two---not victims yet---. And you are right---my first thought would be revenge---I don't deny it---. But then what after that---.
> 
> What I want to say is that the moment Davis was taken into custody---there should have been a blanket put on any news leakage---and every thing should have been hushed up---.
> 
> Do you for a moment think that such a thing has not happened in the U S---where operatives from another country have not taken out american police officers and people from the agency----but you never hear about them----because there is no reason to rile up the public---do you think that it has never happened in russia or britain or germany or france. Yes it has---the police and the agencies take over----the news media gets a blackout---.
> 
> It is a normal practise in the rich cities and townships not to report news of robberies---minimize the news of horrendous murders---where the body parts have been cut apart.
> 
> My boy---I apologize---I keep forgetting that I am talking to my countrymen who have harldy been out of the country---and even if they do---they have no exposure of the outside.
> 
> This is not a matter of taking cash credit or benefits but in a way it is---remember the explosion of the chemical plant in india---where there were tens of thousand poor souls died of gas leakage and at that time chairman of the company was visiting india---there was a public outrage to arrest him and hang him---but he was let go---.
> 
> My goodman---first the nation needs to develop some character---then they can move ahead.


 

We cant make comparison between India & Pakistan more over not wise to leave a person who killed Pakistan men unless looking at India which released the killer of thousands of their people. May be they can but we cant & we will not allow them step in freely & fire over people. We have not to arrange tea party for him and see off on airport.

US ought to learn who to live in Pakistan and respect people.

It is best chance to stand and step toward independent economic growth. We have to push their problems in their own land but not let them play in our ground.

Media roll is appropriate and people respectively acted as they must be. We are developing and we will develop but till we did best in progress, it is not the license to do everything as they like.

Best way to overcome problem is put a stopper or act when problem on its initial stage.

As someone said Its better to Cry once than cry for ever

Davis did a crime so he has go through court trails and face verdict, give lesson to our ally what are our priorities.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My post upset you---seems like it did---. Should I respond in the same coin as you did and decalre you a traitor---because you want to cause unrest and unstability amongst the citizen in these desperate time---when there are two major enemy armies right across from our borders---ready to avail any oppurtunity---.
> 
> If you are asking for agitation and not calmness then you are also instigating an enemy attack---that enemy attack may effect the position and integrity of our sensitive assets as well---now why would a good pakistani want to do something like that.
> 
> Why would a good pakistani citizen participate in creating a scenario that might jeopardize our asets in these tumulous times---I understand pride, honour and dignity---but at what price---.
> 
> If you lose your sovereignity---you got nothing left---if you lose your major assets---you have nothing left except for pride---and you know what----pride is for fools---you can only swallow it but can't eat it.


 
Yaar Mastaan... I generally admire your fair comments and insight... but you are now becoming a bit silly... you do come across pro Americana here...

Pakistan should simply hang this man till he dies and send his body back to US in an American flag... If anyone here proposes that America will start some sort of a war over that, they need to get their heads examined...


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## ashok321

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Yaar Mastaan... I generally admire your fair comments and insight... but you are now becoming a bit silly... you do come across pro Americana here...
> 
> Pakistan should simply hang this man till he dies and send his body back to US in an American flag... If anyone here proposes that America will start some sort of a war over that, they need to get their heads examined...


 
RD is not worth billions of dollars that might be stuck in a chocked pipeline owing to his death penality!

That apart, because it wont come to Pakistan´s triple A economy - ALLAH-ARMY-AMERICA - 3 pillars of Pakistan.

Take one pillar (America) away and Pakistan starts crumbling.

Pakistan has been receiving free arms since 60 years from the US. Starting from saber jet, patton tanks and what not, now you got frigates for free.

RD is not worth above, you know this.

As for honour and diginity - stop drones first, then we shall talk.

Time is not right/ripe for Pakistan to act like that.


Only when a tree has grown can you tie your cow to it.


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## Whiplash

ashok321 said:


> RD is not worth billions of dollars that might be stuck in a chocked pipeline owing to his death penality!
> 
> That apart, because it wont come to Pakistan´s triple A economy - ALLAH-ARMY-AMERICA - 3 pillars of Pakistan.
> 
> Take one pillar (America) away and Pakistan starts crumbling.
> 
> Pakistan has been receiving free arms since 60 years from the US. Starting from saber jet, patton tanks and what not, now you got frigates for free.
> 
> RD is not worth above, you know this.
> 
> As for honour and diginity - stop drones first, then we shall talk.
> 
> Time is not right/ripe for Pakistan to act like that.
> 
> 
> Only when a tree has grown can you tie your cow to it.


 
They aren't getting any Aid for free. Its called Payment. 
They are fighting a war that isn't theirs. Dealing with thousands of soldiers and civilians dead. Bomb blasts every week.
All this for the americans. In fact they are paying a much higher price than the value of the missile or ship or plane.
So before you accuse them of getting FREE aid, realise that they are on the worse side of the bargain.

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## Imran Khan

latest for me is Indians will oppose us even we are right or wrong .even we have killed even victims family comet suicide even some one damage us with out reason . why you are so hateful for us india? you have no mercy amung your next door? you go deep deep down in hate.

belive me if someone kill indians like this personally i stay with indians .

this for you guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L3h0I7dE5s

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## ashok321

Whiplash said:


> They aren't getting any Aid for free. Its called Payment.
> They are fighting a war that isn't theirs. Dealing with thousands of soldiers and civilians dead. Bomb blasts every week.
> All this for the americans. In fact they are paying a much higher price than the value of the missile or ship or plane.
> So before you accuse them of getting FREE aid, realise that they are on the worse side of the bargain.


 
Afghan war started 10 years ago!

What was happening before that?

When you got patton tanks, F4 star fighter saber jets and used them in a war with India - who gifted you that?

Show me that you paid for it!


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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


> latest for me is Indians will oppose us even we are right or wrong .even we have killed even victims family comet suicide even some one damage us with out reason . why you are so hateful for us india? you have no mercy amung your next door? you go deep deep down in hate.
> 
> belive me if someone kill indians like this personally i stay with indians .
> 
> this for you guys
> YouTube - Ek brahman ne kaha hai


 
Its not hate from my side. You do as you want. I was only giving you a bigger picture to look into.
On one end you have RD, and on the other hand there is so much at the stake.
Choice is NOT yours though as you know.
Its zardari and company.
What can you do?
Its not me!


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## jamal18

Pictures of army bunkers in the _east?_

The US is totally in collusion with an Indian invasion?


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## Devil Soul

how the hell did he managed to get the pics of army bunkers on the eastern border with India, may b someone from inside helped him or during an official visit he managed to get those pic's, but again am not sure that visits of these natures are arranged....


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

jamal18 said:


> Pictures of army bunkers in the _east?_
> 
> The US is totally in collusion with an Indian invasion?


 
wats the need to bring india into this? if us really want to invade pakistan (in collusion with india) why wd they give u billion of dollars in aid. non sense logic.

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## s90

Had it not been for that firing incident this and many others like him might have gotten away with sensitive information. I don't know what our intel agencies are upto, sleeping probably.


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## jamal18

GUNS-N- ROSES said:


> wats the need to bring india into this? if us really want to invade pakistan (in collusion with india) why wd they give u billion of dollars in aid. non sense logic.


 
Pictures of eastern bunkers can only be for India; they are of no relevance to the US.

US military aid was only given reluctantly, initially the US didn't even want to give f-16's, they only gave them as a last resort when the Pakistani's gave them an ultimatum.

We also don't know how much of this equipment is 'spiked'

The US's alliance with India is strategic and permanent.

With Pakistan it is temporary, bought about by the needs of the Afghan war.

No Afghan war = No alliance with Pakistan.

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## SQ8

Balahisar makes sense.. its a historical monument.. 
But bunkers on the eastern border??
Maybe he just was curious.. tourist maybe..


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## Irfan Baloch

santro said:


> Balahisar makes sense.. its a historical monument..
> But bunkers on the eastern border??
> Maybe he just was curious.. tourist maybe..


 
anyone else daring to making a tourist outing to area 51 or camp david will have his/ her remains spread over a square mile.
I recall beating up of the European" diplomat when he repeatedly made "trourist" visits near Kahota.

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## TaimiKhan

santro said:


> Balahisar makes sense.. its a historical monument..
> But bunkers on the eastern border??
> Maybe he just was curious.. tourist maybe..


 
If the picture of the fort is of its entrance and its not much old, then it can give a pretty good idea of the security arrangements and planning to tackle such security setup can be done. 

Well if the last line is sarcasm, then a good one, if not, then i will take it as sarcasm.


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## W.11

taking pictures reminds me of the second rambo movie....

what the F, americans are sending rambos here??? to spy on us??


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## GUNS-N- ROSES

jamal18 said:


> Pictures of eastern bunkers can only be for India; they are of no relevance to the US.
> 
> US military aid was only given reluctantly, initially the US didn't even want to give f-16's, they only gave them as a last resort when the Pakistani's gave them an ultimatum.
> 
> We also don't know how much of this equipment is 'spiked'
> 
> The US's alliance with India is strategic and permanent.
> 
> With Pakistan it is temporary, bought about by the needs of the Afghan war.
> 
> No Afghan war = No alliance with Pakistan.


 
US alliance with india has developed post 90s. today we share good relationship wid them. but pakistan has more startegic value attached to it from american point of view. america has made the right noises regarding pakistan (with respect to india) but if u look at it they have still not put pressure on pakistan. because they know if they put too much pressure u wont help them in afghanistan. 

as far as invasion is concerned, leave any thoughts of that. u have nuclear weapons u can defend u r self from both india and us.

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## jahangeer yousaf

the bottom line is we are not gonna free him up for the spying again ... army should stand towards this time ... otherwise they will have to pay aswell .... they should forget their dollars and their housing scheme for some time for the sake of pakistan and peoples of pakistan ......we have potentional to keep usa on its knee ..... and we will INSHALLAH


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## RabzonKhan

*U.S., Pakistani officials at diplomatic odds in fatal shooting*

By Greg Miller and Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, February 10, 2011; A08 

*U.S. and Pakistani officials Wednesday offered dueling accounts of the events leading up to the arrest of an American who fatally shot two men in Lahore last month and whose continued detention is at the center of an increasingly tense diplomatic standoff between the two countries.* 

*A Pakistani official, referring to what he said were the preliminary findings of his government's investigation of the incident, said Raymond Allen Davis fired five shots at the Pakistani men from his vehicle and then got out to shoot two more at each of them as they lay on the ground in a busy intersection during midday traffic. 

A U.S. official disputed the account, saying that Davis fired five shots from the Glock handgun he was carrying, all of them from within his car at what both sides agree were probably would-be robbers.* 

As often-conflicting details continued to emerge about what happened on the afternoon of Jan. 27, neither side budged on the core dispute between them - whether Davis, a former U.S. Special Operations sergeant who carried a U.S. diplomatic passport - is immune from prosecution by a Pakistani court. 

The United States has demanded Davis's immediate release under international treaties guaranteeing immunity for diplomats. In retaliation for his continued detention, it has suspended high-level diplomatic contacts with Pakistan and warned that a planned exchange of visits this year by President Obama and Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari are at risk, according to officials from both countries who spoke on the condition of anonymity about the sensitive matter. 

Pakistan has refused to release Davis, indicating that he faces possible murder charges at a time when the government in Islamabad is encountering mounting public pressure to show that it is not being manipulated by Washington. The government has said that his status and the disposition of the case are matters for the courts there. 

The Pakistani official warned against aggressive U.S. pressure against the weak civilian government there, saying that the issue could "spin out of control," and the administration should provide time for tempers to cool. 

"No one individual in Pakistan, no one organization, can afford to take an unpopular decision at this time," he said. 

But another Pakistani official said that the longer the government allows the situation to continue, the weaker it appears in the face of public pressure. 

In court proceedings, Davis has admitted to the shooting but said it was done in self-defense. Davis told the court that he fired on the Pakistani men after they approached him on motorcycles brandishing weapons in what he thought was an attempted robbery. 

*The incident has inflamed anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, where many think that their government has been too deferential to the United States in taking part in counterterrorism operations and allowing CIA drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt.* 

*The Pakistani official said his government was also angry that no U.S. official has apologized for a third, apparently inadvertent, death in the incident, that of a Pakistani cyclist run down by a car from the U.S. consulate in Lahore that unsuccessfully tried to reach Davis at the scene of the shooting before his arrest.* 

*U.S. officials have offered incomplete and often confusing accounts of the events surrounding the shooting, Davis's identity and his assignment in Pakistan.* 

The State Department said Monday that Davis was a member of the "technical and administrative staff" at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad and that he had been temporarily assigned to the consulate in Lahore. 

*Senior State Department officials have said that Davis was not supposed to carry a weapon in Pakistan, while other U.S. officials said that he was a security contractor and did have permission to carry the weapon.* 

According to a Pakistani police report that has been provided to U.S. officials, items recovered in Davis's car included a portable telescope, a wallet, U.S. dollars and Pakistani rupees, a digital camera, computer memory cards, a passport, a cellphone and numerous items that appeared to come from a first-aid kit, including bandages, a "cutter" and a flashlight. 

*Pakistani media have also reported, and U.S. officials do not dispute, that Davis also carried multiple ATM and military ID cards and what was described as a facial disguise or makeup. The Pakistani official said Davis also carried identification cards from the U.S. consulates in Lahore and Peshawar but not from the embassy in Islamabad.* 

Pakistani television aired a *video* Wednesday that appears to show Davis being questioned by authorities after he was taken into custody. Davis identifies himself as an American and repeatedly pleads with his interrogators to help him locate a passport that he says went missing shortly after he showed it to police at the crime scene. 

He identifies himself as an employee at the consulate in Lahore, saying, "I just work as a consultant there." 

U.S. officials did not dispute the authenticity of the video. 

The shooting, as well as ambiguous answers from U.S. officials about whether Davis was part of the CIA, have fanned speculation that the incident was not a botched robbery but a deadly confrontation between spies. A Pakistani intelligence official told The Washington Post that the motorcyclists were intelligence agents; a spokesman for Pakistan's main intelligence agency denied that Tuesday. 

U.S. and Pakistani officials agreed that the police report, written in Urdu, indicates that the two Pakistanis who were killed had robbed two individuals earlier in the day and taken their cellphones, which were found in their possession at the crime scene. These robbery victims came forward independently after seeing television coverage of the crime, saying they recognized the two Pakistanis who were shot by the U.S. official. 

The report indicates that at least one of the motorcycle men cocked a weapon and aimed it at Davis while he was stopped at a traffic signal, but that neither of the Pakistani men fired. "One cocked a pistol and pointed it at him," a U.S. official said. 

The two slain Pakistanis were found in possession of five cellular phones, a Rolex-style watch and four different types of currency, the report indicates. 

U.S. Army records indicate that Davis, a native of Virginia, spent a decade in the military before being discharged in 2003. He is identified as a special operations weapons sergeant whose last assignment was with the 3rd Special Forces Group based at Fort Bragg, N.C. 

Davis also served in infantry units, as well as part of a United Nations peacekeeping force in Macedonia in 1994. Public records indicate that after his military career, Davis served as an officer of a private security firm known as Hyperion Protective Services, based in Nevada. 

millergreg@washpost.com deyoungk@washpost.com 

Correspondent Karin Brulliard in Islamabad and staff researcher Julie Tate in Washington contributed to this report.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Nothing is at stake... It would be a good thing that the country gets rid of the crutches and shackles that America has kept it in using its puppets in the Government and the Army... The sooner we become assertive the better... We have seen what has become of Pakistan under fake leadership of people like Busharaf/Benazir/Nawaz/Zia and currently Zardari... The hell with American aid... We can stand on our own feet... The only people who oppose this are those on the payroll of America for this very purpose or those who know nothing of the world and are sumon bukomon umyon type people blinded and dumbed by the fake glitter that the west projects towards the Muslim world... 

BTW the drone point was a good one... We hang RD and America tries to get smart and we stop NATO supplies and send PAF after any drone entering Pakistan after that... America would be run by total fools if they openly aggressed against Pakistan... even today they are doing their dirty stuff in the guise of WOT and not openly challenging Pakistan... so far they are acting with cunning... but let them turn into fools if they want to... We are resilient people... if we can survive a disaster called Zardari as President... we can basically survive pretty much anything!!!

You Indians dont need to teach us how to run our affairs... Lay off

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## PAKFA

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> You Indians dont need to teach us how to run our affairs... Lay off



What Indians had taught you and what advice Pakistan has followed yet? Obviously you are doing your own acts by your own mind and getting results of your own act.


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## Major Sahab

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Nothing is at stake... It would be a good thing that the country gets rid of the crutches and shackles that America has kept it in using its puppets in the Government and the Army... The sooner we become assertive the better... We have seen what has become of Pakistan under fake leadership of people like Busharaf/Benazir/Nawaz/Zia and currently Zardari... The hell with American aid... We can stand on our own feet... The only people who oppose this are those on the payroll of America for this very purpose or those who know nothing of the world and are sumon bukomon umyon type people blinded and dumbed by the fake glitter that the west projects towards the Muslim world...
> 
> BTW the drone point was a good one... We hang RD and America tries to get smart and we stop NATO supplies and send PAF after any drone entering Pakistan after that... America would be run by total fools if they openly aggressed against Pakistan... even today they are doing their dirty stuff in the guise of WOT and not openly challenging Pakistan... so far they are acting with cunning... but let them turn into fools if they want to... We are resilient people... if we can survive a disaster called Zardari as President... we can basically survive pretty much anything!!!
> 
> You Indians dont need to teach us how to run our affairs... Lay off


 
Well said!


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## ashok321

> You Indians dont need to teach us how to run our affairs... Lay off



Change the above slightly to make it more meaningful for you:

_You Zardari Bhutto dont need to teach us how to run our affairs... Lay off_

Ultimately it would be his word - not yours nor mine!

Comprende amigo??


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

ashok321 said:


> Change the above slightly to make it more meaningful for you:
> 
> _You Zardari Bhutto dont need to teach us how to run our affairs... Lay off_
> 
> Ultimately it would be his word - not yours nor mine!
> 
> Comprende amigo??


 
Not really... If you understand that its up to Zardari then spare yourself the trouble to tell us whats best for us...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

LeGenD said:


> OK! Our people want change. One should ask them that what have they planned for 'setting a stage' for the change they demand?
> 
> A large portion of population is illiterate. This portion has no proper sense of right and wrong and can be easily manipulated. This portion continues to vote corrupt people. And then we have _parhe likhe jahil_ too. Problem is that our nation is filled with *emotional fools* and does little planning to address issues plaguing it.
> 
> We have developed a 'false sense of security and hope' in our minds. What we could not become; we like to boast about such capabilities with words. *We are in a state of denial.*
> 
> The most important thing for us is to educate the masses and destroy vadera-ism. Who will want this to happen? A visionary leader. So how will such a person come to power? Any strategy?
> 
> We want change and justice, right? How?
> 
> *WE* are responsible for what is happening to us today: Drone Attacks, guys like Davis roaming in Pakistan, leaders like Zardari & Co, wide spread corruption, TTP, bullying of America etc...
> 
> Despite of our extreme level of pathetic-ness, you expect outsiders to respect our customs and not meddle in our affairs?


 
LeGend my dear... the first step to bring a change is to convey thought thru speech... this is what our brothers and sisters doing now... 

Remember even God chose the means of speech to generate thought and change mankind... just look at the Quran

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## iPhone

MastanKhan said:


> iPhone,
> 
> Thanks for the response----so far the only victim was the one run over by the car---the other two---not victims yet---. And you are right---my first thought would be revenge---I don't deny it---. But then what after that---.


Revenge? who said anything about revenge? what about justice? 



> What I want to say is that the moment Davis was taken into custody---there should have been a blanket put on any news leakage---and every thing should have been hushed up---.


you do know it was the public on the scene that stopped RD, that turned him over to the police. With hundred of phone cameras out, filming and taking pictures, any attempt at blanketing the news by the govt would've lead to more protests and riots. Would that suit you?




> My boy---I apologize---I keep forgetting that I am talking to my countrymen who have harldy been out of the country---and even if they do---they have no exposure of the outside.


Please, enough, enough of your condescending tone. You have no idea about me, my age and what I do. I'm not some boy full of idealism and national bravado. I'm quiet a realist. However, you have been very out of touch of reality in you posts and clearly don't realize what you are saying. Just like above when you asked for a cover up on the news. 

Or when you mentioned the Indian chemical plant. Two entirely different incidents. How can they hang the chairman of that company where workers died of an explosion. The chairperson didn't cause the explosion. Accidents of sort happen in such places, perhaps through a company's negligence, but the cover-up in that case would be of such purportions, it'd be almost impossible to convict anyone. Like the BP oil leak in the gulf. Billions of dollars of damage plus loss to human life but not convictions. But here we have an accused who has admitted to a double homicide but seeks a diplomatic immunity.

Your comment about swallowing pride and having the U.S. in the corner to get cash benefits speaks volume about you. 

You also mentioned that pride is for fools and can't be eaten. I disagree once again. I'm of a belief that a man is nothing without his dignity, self respect and pride but an empty hollow shell of a being. 

Kind of like how our country has been for quiet sometime because decisions were made by wise men like yourself to put behind integrity and pride and think of survival and what can be gained cash and credit wise, and what results of that? a nation which is an object of ridicule around the world.

And last but not least Mr. Mastaan Khan, you judged my character, so I will judge yours in return. I think at one point in your life you compromised your beliefs and your integrity for a comfortable life, but something is amiss now, right? therefore you want other people to follow in your footsteps. How does it feel when you look in the mirror?

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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> If the picture of the fort is of its entrance and its not much old, then it can give a pretty good idea of the security arrangements and planning to tackle such security setup can be done.
> 
> Well if the last line is sarcasm, then a good one, if not, then i will take it as sarcasm.


 
What do you think 

The fact remains.. this is becoming even more twisted as we speak..


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## VelocuR

What would US gain from Davis' hidden spy camera on *Pakistan Army&#8217;s bunkers on the Eastern border with India??* what's going? Seriously, this Davis should be trial in ISI interrogation !


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

@mastaan khan, sorry to say but some of your views are very unrealistic......talking about west and people not going abroad......who said west mediacovers up the story...do you want me to start posting newspaper cuttings here .....however I agree with rest. Of the comments


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## RescueRanger

Comedy of Error's:





What a wonderful way to treat a suspect in such a serious case... 

They ask his name for the FIR and he says Raymond Davis, one guy remarks... Raymond Diamond... He rebuke's, no Raymond Davis ( the guy repeats in urdu... Diamond he kar do... " lets just go with Diamond". 

Then he ask's for a bottle of water, and the officer mocks him... "Nestle, bottled Water? Pure Water?Nestle Walla?.... He then goes on to say "no money, no water"... Whilst someone in the background scoffs and remarks sarcastically, give him a drink he just killed two people.

*Then they continue to laugh at his predicament. *

Conclusion: Now the case is finished. As for the photo's, the bag, the gear, weapon and ammo. Sorry but i don't buy any of this BS anymore. 

*Just let him go, you have embarrassed yourselves enough. *

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## ashok321

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Not really... If you understand that its up to Zardari then spare yourself the trouble to tell us whats best for us...


 
This is a open democratic forum for any citizen who abides by PDF´s forum guidelines..


The best advice is this: Don't take advice and don't give advice.

End of the story!


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## Solomon2

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Nothing is at stake... It would be a good thing that the country gets rid of the crutches and shackles...The hell with American aid...


You have previously admitted that you have little use for and are not fond of the idea of the State of Pakistan. Why, then, should we believe that you are trying to strengthen the country rather than weaken it?

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## SMC

So this guy has been taking photos of military installations as well as military bunkers in the east. Obviously US is up to something in Pakistan. Makes me believe what I've heard before even more - US is pressuring Pakistan to not talk about foreign hand in terrorism in Pakistan for its own interests.

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## Awesome

Dunya TV did a really irresponsible thing by releasing the video...

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## Awesome

Tomorrow they go seeking for a murder trial, I hope it gets the green light, forever closing the debate about this silly immunity.

AFP: Pakistan prosecutors to seek US murder trial



> Pakistan prosecutors to seek US murder trial
> (AFP) &#8211; 1 hour ago
> 
> LAHORE, Pakistan &#8212; The law minister in Pakistan's Punjab province said prosecutors would go to court Friday to demand a murder trial for a US official in a case that has inflamed relations with Washington.
> 
> On January 27, Raymond Davis confessed to shooting dead two Pakistani men in self-defence in broad daylight on the streets of Lahore.
> 
> A third Pakistani was run over and killed by a US consular vehicle coming to collect Davis, who was instead taken into Pakistani police custody.
> 
> Washington has demanded Davis' immediate release, saying he acted in self-defence and has diplomatic immunity.
> 
> But in what has become a political time-bomb, the government is under enormous domestic pressure to see Davis go on trial and local lawyers argue that diplomatic immunity can be waived for grave crimes.
> 
> The deaths sparked protests in Pakistan, where anti-American sentiment runs high, fuelled by the government's unpopular alliance with Washington, the war in Afghanistan and US missile attacks on Islamists in the northwest.
> 
> An eight-day police remand expires on Friday, when the judge is expected to decide whether Davis should be transferred from police custody to judicial remand in prison, a precursor to a trial.
> 
> Rana Sanaullah, law minister in Punjab, said the prosecution would seek murder charges against him on Friday.
> 
> "Investigators will complete their job tonight and tomorrow we will frame murder charges against him," Sanaullah told AFP.
> 
> "Another case of carrying unlicensed weapons would also be taken up against him."
> 
> US lawmakers on Tuesday threatened to cut aid to Pakistan and Washington has warned that high-level dialogue is at risk unless Davis is freed.
> 
> In Pakistan, few are convinced that Davis was a normal diplomat. The United States has yet to confirm his name and precise job.
> 
> Police told AFP they recovered a Glock pistol, four loaded magazines, a GPS navigation system and small telescope from his car.
> 
> A spokeswoman for the US embassy said the detained American would have legal counsel at the court appearance on Friday.



This only counts the murder charge and the illegal weapons charge, but from the petitions I had counted earlier, there was also a charge of identity theft, that this person may just not be a Raymond Davis.


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## JonAsad

Asim Aquil said:


> Dunya TV did a really irresponsible thing by releasing the video...


 
The fools we are-- the video made it look so true--


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## Awesome

It probably wasn't a real questioning either, they must've left some sipahi level folks around him to keep an eye on him till they figured out what had gone down...

I just saw the video on Telegraph's website, its so poorly translated - He says "No money, no paani" the translation says "No money, no funny", whereas it goes on to say "No money no water" later on.

There were other wrong translations like "Hey he's understanding punjabi"


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## Awesome

Hillary was strongly opposed to diplomatic immmunity for even Parking violations! Dawn.com



> As a junior senator from New York, Mrs. Clinton wanted to revoke the diplomatic immunity for scofflaw diplomats who were stationed at the United Nations in New York and had racked up $21.3 million in parking violations. As the Secretary of State, however, she is invoking diplomatic immunity for Mr. Raymond Davis, who is accused of murdering two young men in Lahore.
> 
> It is hard to understand Mrs. Clinton&#8217;s logic who on one hand was not willing to excuse foreign diplomats accused of parking violations in New York. &#8220;The flagrant disregard for parking regulations has had serious ramification for the safety and quality of life for New Yorkers,&#8221; she argued in a letter in 2002. On the other hand, she would like an American contract worker, who claims to be a diplomat, to be granted immunity from prosecution for murdering two youths.

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## forcetrip

Balancing parking tickets against murders

For the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, a parking ticket violation is more atrocious than a murder. As a junior senator from New York, Mrs. Clinton wanted to revoke the diplomatic immunity for scofflaw diplomats who were stationed at the United Nations in New York and had racked up $21.3 million in parking violations. As the Secretary of State, however, she is invoking diplomatic immunity for Mr. Raymond Davis, who is accused of murdering two young men in Lahore.

It is hard to understand Mrs. Clinton&#8217;s logic who on one hand was not willing to excuse foreign diplomats accused of parking violations in New York. &#8220;The flagrant disregard for parking regulations has had serious ramification for the safety and quality of life for New Yorkers,&#8221; she argued in a letter in 2002. On the other hand, she would like an American contract worker, who claims to be a diplomat, to be granted immunity from prosecution for murdering two youths.

In 2004, Mrs. Clinton and the senior senator from New York, Charles Schumer, presented a Bill that advocated cutting foreign aid to countries who owed unpaid parking fines to the City of New York. Senator Clinton was obviously incensed by the fact that diplomats were abusing their privilege. Diplomatic immunity was never intended to allow diplomats to violate traffic laws of the host country, or for that matter, commit murders.

She registered her discontent with diplomatic immunity and argued that it was not &#8220;acceptable for foreign diplomats and consular officials to hide behind diplomatic and consular immunity to park in illegal spaces in New York City and avoid paying parking tickets. It is my hope that this legislation will ensure that the City gets the money that it is owed.&#8221; Senators Clinton and Schumer were successful in amending the 2005 congressional Foreign Operations Bill in the Senate that froze foreign aid to countries by amounts they owed New York City in parking ticket violations and unpaid property taxes.

I am not suggesting that parking violations could or should be ignored. As a professor of transport management, I understand how illegally parked vehicles impede traffic, cause congestion, and cost billions in lost productivity. In fact, in 2006 when the US Embassy in London racked up over £1 million in unpaid congestion charges, the peeved Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, called the American ambassador Robert Tuttle, who owned a car dealership and raised $200,000 for President George W. Bush&#8217;s election campaign, a &#8216;chiselling little crook&#8217;.

What I do not understand is how can one justify waiving diplomatic immunity for a misdemeanour, i.e., a parking violation, and insist on invoking it for violating the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, for a person whose diplomatic credentials are dubious at best, and whose culpability is beyond doubt.

Granting Mr. Davis diplomatic immunity will deny the judicial system in Pakistan the opportunity to determine the circumstances that lead to the two murders. The courts need to establish if Mr. Davis is indeed a diplomat, and not a contract worker or a mercenary employed by the US consulate in Lahore. The courts need to determine that if Mr. Davis were a diplomat, where was he stationed in the past or what school he attended to prepare for a career in foreign diplomacy. The courts need to ascertain if he indeed was acting in self-defence when he shot the two men riding away on a motorbike through the windshield of his car. The courts need to determine if he indeed was on diplomatic business at the time he shot the two men.

I have spoken with senior Pakistani diplomats in North America who have confirmed that Mr. Davis was issued an official business visa, which is reserved for contractors and lower-level staff serving in foreign missions in Pakistan. This does not make Mr. Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity in the first place. I contacted Ambassador Hussain Haqqani in Washington, DC, to determine the status of Mr. Davis&#8217; now controversial visa. Mr. Haqqani has chosen not to respond. I have, however, enjoyed better correspondence with Ambassador Haqqani when he was a fellow academic.

While the US has always by default demanded immunity from prosecution for its diplomats serving in foreign countries, she has been stingy in reciprocating the favour. When the shoe is on the other foot, the US administration reacts completely in the opposite. Instead of honouring diplomatic immunity, it pressures countries to waive diplomatic immunity for the diplomats accused of wrongdoings in the United States.

*In 1987, a car driven by the ambassador of Papua New Guinea, Kiatro Abisinito, hit four other cars in Washington, DC. The ambassador invoked diplomatic immunity. However, the US Attorneys prepared a criminal case against the ambassador for operating a vehicle while being intoxicated.*

*Consider the case of Georgian diplomat, Gueorgui Makharadze, who in 1997 killed a 16-year old girl in a fatal traffic accident in the US. The diplomat invoked diplomatic immunity and was ready to leave when the Georgian President, Eduard Shevardnadze, ordered the diplomat to stay in the United States and face criminal charges. Mr. Makharadze was convicted by a court and served time in an American prison.*

Pakistan will not be the first country to question the doctrines of diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats have been accused of not just misdemeanours, such as parking violations, but are accused of heinous crimes, such as murder. Former US Secretary of State, Caspar Weinberger, pointed out circumstances that warranted &#8220;limits to the doctrines of diplomatic immunity.&#8221; While addressing a conference organized by the American Bar Association in June 1986, Mr Weinberger unequivocally declared that a &#8220;diplomatic title must not confer a license to murder.&#8221;

Several American legislators have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats were accused of serious crimes, such as murder and rape. In 1984, Senator Arlen Specter presented a Bill to renegotiate the Vienna Convention to eliminate diplomatic immunity for diplomats accused of murder. Later in 1987, US Congressman Stephen J. Solarz introduced a Bill to limit the diplomatic immunity, which he termed untenable and unacceptable to grant to those accused of murder.

While the American public representatives have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity for others, they have fought tooth and nail to seek immunity for their own diplomats when they stood accused of committing serious crimes. There are several examples of American diplomats leaving without trial even after being accused of committing murders. According to New York Times&#8217; archives, a US Embassy employee, Martha D. Patterson, was accused of complicity in poisoning to death a USSR citizen in July 1977. Ms. Peterson was freed however after she invoked diplomatic immunity. Later in 2002, Samuel Karmilowicz, an employee with the US Embassy in Quito, Ecuador, shot and killed an Ecuadorian national Pablo Jaramillo after crashing his car into the taxi carrying Mr. Jaramillo. The American diplomat left Ecuador soon afterwards invoking diplomatic immunity.

It is however, not without precedent that a country revoked diplomatic immunity for diplomats of other countries. In 1944, England cancelled diplomatic immunity for foreign diplomats and their staff. Only diplomats from the Commonwealth countries, the Soviet Union and the United States were permitted to retain diplomatic immunity.

*In 2002 in England, the Colombian Embassy waived diplomatic immunity for a sergeant-major and his son who were caught on CCTV stabbing to death a 23 year old man outside a supermarket in West London. Initially, the Colombian diplomat, who was an assistant to the Colombian military attaché, and his son were granted immunity from prosecution. The Colombians claimed that they acted in self-defence after being mugged by the deceased. The Colombians were however acquitted of murder by a British court after it was established that they indeed acted in self-defence.*

*It is also not without precedent that the US government has waived immunity for its diplomats or contractors employed by the US foreign missions. In 1995, the US government waived diplomatic immunity for David Duchow, a contract employee with the US embassy in Bolivia, who was accused of stealing a truck-load of fuel. Mr. Duchow in retaliation sued the US government for waiving his diplomatic immunity.*

Indulge me for a second and imagine if the situation was reversed and a Pakistani diplomat stood accused of shooting to death two young men in SoHo, New York. Given that Mrs. Clinton was unwilling to pardon diplomats accused of parking violations, it is highly likely that she would have opposed granting immunity to a Pakistani diplomat accused of committing multiple murders in broad daylight and in the presence of dozens of eye witnesses. She would have insisted that the true identity and the status of the accused be first determined. She would have wanted the US courts to determine if the Pakistani diplomat acted in self-defence or was he a trigger-happy fellow who got spooked and started shooting. She would not have allowed the Pakistani diplomat to touch the tarmac at the JFK Airport.

I also wonder how President Obama would react in this situation. Would he be as statesmanlike as the former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze and instruct Mr. Raymond Davis to stay in Pakistan and plead his case in a court of law. Or would Mr. Obama choose to be more like the Russian Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, who refused to waive diplomatic immunity for a Russian diplomat stationed in Canada who in 2001 killed one woman and injured another while driving a car while being intoxicated?

Given Mr. Obama&#8217;s recent foreign policy choices, I see more of Putin in him than a statesman.

Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is a professor of supply chain management at Ryerson University in Toronto. He can be reached by email at murtaza.haider@ryerson.ca.

Balancing parking tickets against murders | World | DAWN.COM

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## JonAsad

Asim Aquil said:


> Tomorrow they go seeking for a murder trial, I hope it gets the green light, forever closing the debate about this silly immunity.
> 
> AFP: Pakistan prosecutors to seek US murder trial
> 
> 
> 
> This only counts the murder charge and the illegal weapons charge, but from the petitions I had counted earlier, there was also a charge of *identity theft*, that this person may just not be a Raymond Davis.


 
I agree-- new developments shows he could be charged for Espionage aswell--
The reason they did not charge him for the above two-- it think is-- because he is immune to both of them under Geneva convention-- under any circumstances--


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## JonAsad

> Indulge me for a second and imagine if the situation was reversed and a Pakistani diplomat stood accused of shooting to death two young men in SoHo, New York. Given that Mrs. Clinton was unwilling to pardon diplomats accused of parking violations, it is highly likely that she would have opposed granting immunity to a Pakistani diplomat accused of committing multiple murders in broad daylight and in the presence of dozens of eye witnesses. She would have insisted that the true identity and the status of the accused be first determined. She would have wanted the US courts to determine if the Pakistani diplomat acted in self-defence or was he a trigger-happy fellow who got spooked and started shooting. She would not have allowed the Pakistani diplomat to touch the tarmac at the JFK Airport.




*The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
*


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

author brings up some good points here.....let it be known that traffic violations in the U.S. are not misdemeanors; they are just traffic violations. Misdemeanors are arrestable offences.


*Balancing Parking Tickets Against Murders*​


> For the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, a parking ticket violation is more atrocious than a murder. As a junior senator from New York, Mrs. Clinton wanted to revoke the diplomatic immunity for scofflaw diplomats who were stationed at the United Nations in New York and had racked up $21.3 million in parking violations. As the Secretary of State, however, she is invoking diplomatic immunity for Mr. Raymond Davis, who is accused of murdering two young men in Lahore.
> 
> It is hard to understand Mrs. Clintons logic who on one hand was not willing to excuse foreign diplomats accused of parking violations in New York. * The flagrant disregard for parking regulations has had serious ramification for the safety and quality of life for New Yorkers, * she argued in a letter in 2002. On the other hand, she would like an American contract worker, who claims to be a diplomat, to be granted immunity from prosecution for murdering two youths.
> 
> In 2004, Mrs. Clinton and the senior senator from New York, Charles Schumer, presented a Bill that advocated cutting foreign aid to countries who owed unpaid parking fines to the City of New York. Senator Clinton was obviously incensed by the fact that diplomats were abusing their privilege. Diplomatic immunity was never intended to allow diplomats to violate traffic laws of the host country, or for that matter, commit murders.
> 
> *She registered her discontent with diplomatic immunity and argued that it was not acceptable for foreign diplomats and consular officials to hide behind diplomatic and consular immunity to park in illegal spaces in New York City and avoid paying parking tickets.* It is my hope that this legislation will ensure that the City gets the money that it is owed. Senators Clinton and Schumer were successful in amending the 2005 congressional Foreign Operations Bill in the Senate that froze foreign aid to countries by amounts they owed New York City in parking ticket violations and unpaid property taxes.
> 
> I am not suggesting that parking violations could or should be ignored. As a professor of transport management, I understand how illegally parked vehicles impede traffic, cause congestion, and cost billions in lost productivity. In fact, in 2006 when the US Embassy in London racked up over £1 million in unpaid congestion charges, the peeved Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, called the American ambassador Robert Tuttle, who owned a car dealership and raised $200,000 for President George W. Bushs election campaign, a chiselling little crook.
> 
> *What I do not understand is how can one justify waiving diplomatic immunity for a misdemeanour, i.e., a parking violation, and insist on invoking it for violating the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, for a person whose diplomatic credentials are dubious at best, and whose culpability is beyond doubt.*
> 
> Granting Mr. Davis diplomatic immunity will deny the judicial system in Pakistan the opportunity to determine the circumstances that lead to the two murders. The courts need to establish if Mr. Davis is indeed a diplomat, and not a contract worker or a mercenary employed by the US consulate in Lahore. *The courts need to determine that if Mr. Davis were a diplomat, where was he stationed in the past or what school he attended to prepare for a career in foreign diplomacy. The courts need to ascertain if he indeed was acting in self-defence when he shot the two men riding away on a motorbike through the windshield of his car. The courts need to determine if he indeed was on diplomatic business at the time he shot the two men.*
> 
> I have spoken with senior Pakistani diplomats in North America who have confirmed that Mr. Davis was issued an official business visa, which is reserved for contractors and lower-level staff serving in foreign missions in Pakistan. *This does not make Mr. Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity in the first place.* I contacted Ambassador Hussain Haqqani in Washington, DC, to determine the status of Mr. Davis now controversial visa. Mr. Haqqani has chosen not to respond. I have, however, enjoyed better correspondence with Ambassador Haqqani when he was a fellow academic.
> 
> While the US has always by default demanded immunity from prosecution for its diplomats serving in foreign countries, she has been stingy in reciprocating the favour. When the shoe is on the other foot, the US administration reacts completely in the opposite. Instead of honouring diplomatic immunity, it pressures countries to waive diplomatic immunity for the diplomats accused of wrongdoings in the United States.
> 
> In 1987, a car driven by the ambassador of Papua New Guinea, Kiatro Abisinito, hit four other cars in Washington, DC. The ambassador invoked diplomatic immunity. However, the US Attorneys prepared a criminal case against the ambassador for operating a vehicle while being intoxicated.
> 
> *Consider the case of Georgian diplomat, Gueorgui Makharadze, who in 1997 killed a 16-year old girl in a fatal traffic accident in the US. The diplomat invoked diplomatic immunity and was ready to leave when the Georgian President, Eduard Shevardnadze, ordered the diplomat to stay in the United States and face criminal charges. Mr. Makharadze was convicted by a court and served time in an American prison.*
> 
> Pakistan will not be the first country to question the doctrines of diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats have been accused of not just misdemeanours, such as parking violations, but are accused of heinous crimes, such as murder. Former US Secretary of State, Caspar Weinberger, pointed out circumstances that warranted limits to the doctrines of diplomatic immunity. While addressing a conference organized by the American Bar Association in June 1986, Mr Weinberger unequivocally declared that a diplomatic title must not confer a license to murder.
> 
> *Several American legislators have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats were accused of serious crimes, such as murder and rape. In 1984, Senator Arlen Specter presented a Bill to renegotiate the Vienna Convention to eliminate diplomatic immunity for diplomats accused of murder. Later in 1987, US Congressman Stephen J. Solarz introduced a Bill to limit the diplomatic immunity, which he termed untenable and unacceptable to grant to those accused of murder.*
> 
> While the American public representatives have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity for others, they have fought tooth and nail to seek immunity for their own diplomats when they stood accused of committing serious crimes. There are several examples of American diplomats leaving without trial even after being accused of committing murders. According to New York Times archives, a US Embassy employee, Martha D. Patterson, was accused of complicity in poisoning to death a USSR citizen in July 1977. Ms. Peterson was freed however after she invoked diplomatic immunity. Later in 2002, Samuel Karmilowicz, an employee with the US Embassy in Quito, Ecuador, shot and killed an Ecuadorian national Pablo Jaramillo after crashing his car into the taxi carrying Mr. Jaramillo. The American diplomat left Ecuador soon afterwards invoking diplomatic immunity.
> 
> It is however, not without precedent that a country revoked diplomatic immunity for diplomats of other countries. In 1944, England cancelled diplomatic immunity for foreign diplomats and their staff. Only diplomats from the Commonwealth countries, the Soviet Union and the United States were permitted to retain diplomatic immunity.
> 
> In 2002 in England, the Colombian Embassy waived diplomatic immunity for a sergeant-major and his son who were caught on CCTV stabbing to death a 23 year old man outside a supermarket in West London. Initially, the Colombian diplomat, who was an assistant to the Colombian military attaché, and his son were granted immunity from prosecution. The Colombians claimed that they acted in self-defence after being mugged by the deceased. The Colombians were however acquitted of murder by a British court after it was established that they indeed acted in self-defence.
> 
> It is also not without precedent that the US government has waived immunity for its diplomats or contractors employed by the US foreign missions. In 1995, the US government waived diplomatic immunity for David Duchow, a contract employee with the US embassy in Bolivia, who was accused of stealing a truck-load of fuel. Mr. Duchow in retaliation sued the US government for waiving his diplomatic immunity.
> 
> *Indulge me for a second and imagine if the situation was reversed and a Pakistani diplomat stood accused of shooting to death two young men in SoHo, New York. Given that Mrs. Clinton was unwilling to pardon diplomats accused of parking violations, it is highly likely that she would have opposed granting immunity to a Pakistani diplomat accused of committing multiple murders in broad daylight and in the presence of dozens of eye witnesses. She would have insisted that the true identity and the status of the accused be first determined. She would have wanted the US courts to determine if the Pakistani diplomat acted in self-defence or was he a trigger-happy fellow who got spooked and started shooting. She would not have allowed the Pakistani diplomat to touch the tarmac at the JFK Airport.*
> 
> I also wonder how President Obama would react in this situation. Would he be as statesmanlike as the former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze and instruct Mr. Raymond Davis to stay in Pakistan and plead his case in a court of law. Or would Mr. Obama choose to be more like the Russian Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, who refused to waive diplomatic immunity for a Russian diplomat stationed in Canada who in 2001 killed one woman and injured another while driving a car while being intoxicated?
> 
> Given Mr. Obamas recent foreign policy choices, I see more of Putin in him than a statesman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is a professor of supply chain management at Ryerson University in Toronto. He can be reached by email at murtaza.haider@ryerson.ca




Balancing parking tickets against murders | World | DAWN.COM

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

ashok321 said:


> This is a open democratic forum for any citizen who abides by PDF´s forum guidelines..
> 
> 
> The best advice is this: Don't take advice and don't give advice.
> 
> End of the story!



Yet you dont take your own advice and expect others to take yours?? 

I smell a hypocrite!!!

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Solomon2 said:


> You have previously admitted that you have little use for and are not fond of the idea of the State of Pakistan. Why, then, should we believe that you are trying to strengthen the country rather than weaken it?


 
Yawn.

Listen Solomon2... When you post something of real value in this forum instead of your typical BS, do inform me...

As for what you should and should not believe... just hang on there... we live in interesting times indeed

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## ashok321

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Yet you dont take your own advice and expect others to take yours??


 
Advice is given to others - for me it wont be an advice - its called introspection!



> ad·vise (d-vz)
> v. ad·vised, ad·vis·ing, ad·vis·es
> v.tr.
> 1. To offer advice to; counsel.
> 2. To recommend; suggest: advised patience.
> 3. Usage Problem To inform; notify.



Lol baba Lol @ you!


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

ashok321 said:


> Advice is given to others - for me it wont be an advice - its called introspection!
> 
> 
> 
> Lol baba Lol @ you!


 
Introspection is for those who have brains... You dont fall in that category... So you should follow your own advice...

And stop lauging after quoting a dictionary... You are looking stupid...

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## ashok321

> we live in interesting times indeed



Sure we do!

Wait for huzer-e-wala to release RD after several days, then the above statement would have been very pertinent. 

Abhi tau machili samundar main hai, masala mat piso bhaiya....


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## Christian

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Yawn.
> 
> Listen Solomon2... When you post something of real value in this forum instead of your typical BS, do inform me...
> 
> As for what you should and should not believe... just hang on there... we live in interesting times indeed


 
shutting your eyes, ears and screaming "BLAH BLAH BLAH I CANT HEAR YOU" is clearly working well huh?.


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## VelocuR

ashok321 said:


> Advice is given to others - for me it wont be an advice - its called introspection!
> 
> 
> 
> Lol baba Lol @ you!


 
newbie, You seem annoying here, could you please kindly leave this thread. Hi, there is Aero India 2011 show, can you leave us alone? 

be a good boy!

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## ashok321

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Introspection is for those who have brains... You dont fall in that category... So you should follow your own advice...
> 
> And stop lauging after quoting a dictionary... You are looking stupid...


 
Empty vessel sounds more!


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## Imran Khan

ashok321 said:


> Empty vessel sounds more!


 
like you? check last pages you over trolling but defence.pk tolerate you

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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


> like you? check last pages you over trolling but defence.pk tolerate you



You dont trust your own moderators?
Strange!
I do...


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## Awesome

ashok321 said:


> Empty vessel sounds more!


 
Man cut out all the melodrama, the case is going to court tomorrow... As decided even immunity is being decided by the court and either he'd be declared immune or get indicted tomorrow... I don't even understand the motivation of Indians to indulge in scaremongering other than to reassure themselves, perhaps if Pakistan is that ballsy with the US, imagine how we'd treat you guys when you cross us.

So cut out your dialogue baazi, if you have anything to contribute to the developing story please do, if you just want a tamasha, then pick up a dugdugi and head to the streets.

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## Awesome

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> author brings up some good points here.....let it be known that traffic violations in the U.S. are not misdemeanors; they are just traffic violations. Misdemeanors are arrestable offences.
> 
> 
> *Balancing Parking Tickets Against Murders*​
> 
> 
> 
> Balancing parking tickets against murders | World | DAWN.COM


 
There are so many duplicities, even immunity is being decided by the US supreme court as we speak against an Indian government official, much senior than Davis... and his crimes happened in 1984 on another country...

US is behaving as if we are torturing him in some secret cell. Instead he's getting bottled mineral water (an expensive commodity in Pakistan).

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## ashok321

> Man cut out all the melodrama, the case is going to court tomorrow... As decided even immunity is being decided by the court and either he'd be declared immune or get indicted tomorrow...



I will wait for the rubber to meet the road, till then I will re-iterate what I have said all along - RD would be freed by no other than your government, immunity or no immunity......

I think you know thy gov more than I do.


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## Cynic Waheed

Why is it that we are just cussing the Americans and not the institutes that that gave him visa? We talk of hanging the American but dont want to hang the people responsible for providing him the visa. I mean Americans would do anything to to further their national interests, CIA would, FBI would and so will organisarions like xe or black water. They are not doing anything we did not know of before. 
Isnt it time we look inward and question OUR authorities who clear people like RD and grant them visa's, hence the problem lies within and we should use our anger against our people who are so irresponsible that they will grant visa to any tom dick and harry. American must be tried, true, but so must our authorities who let maniacs like these roam freely in our country.

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## Awesome

ashok321 said:


> I will wait for the rubber to meet the road, till then I will re-iterate what I have said all along - RD would be freed by no other than your government, immunity or no immunity......
> 
> I think you know thy gov more than I do.


 
What do you want me to do about it? Say no, we'll never free him no matter what? Go through the thread, don't parachute in between. People here have said that whether or not he's released, it should be through the judicial system, not through immunity declared by US embassy.

And I trust the court that if its through the judicial system, and he is released then either his immunity would be deemed valid or it his statement that he acted in self-defence would be valid.

Why then the all the hoola? Again if you would've come here to discuss and not just flame, then you'd read the many many many posts we useless people have made stating that what this does is, it sets a precedent, the next guy will be dragged to court too, and so will the third one... 

So stop trying to annoy people and shoving your own interpretations about us as facts.

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## ashok321

> So stop trying to annoy people and shoving your own interpretations about us as facts.



How can my opinion be considered as facts ?


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## Beskar

I don't know if any of you have seen this so far but last night one of the channels aired images recovered from Davis's personal camera. 

Most of the pictures are en route to Lahore-India border through 'Badiyan Road'. He even took photographs of war-time bunkers which have been there since the war of 65. Was that his job description at the US embassy? Anyway, point is, we've got ourselves a spy on hand. Popcorn, anyone?

YouTube - Khari Baat - Raymond Davis - 9th February 2011 - 1

Edit; There are also images from Peshawar, Hayatabaad and the route that leads to Torkham.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> There are so many duplicities, even immunity is being decided by the US supreme court as we speak against an Indian government official, much senior than Davis... and his crimes happened in 1984 on another country...



arrogance.....but for too long the dear leaders have been so complacent; they have allowed the ''aid'' to hijack the relations between the 2. Threatening to cut aid because a judicial enquiry is being under-taken is quite immature. It's their money, they are welcome to do what they want. Pakistan ought to do that which is right, and that is to get to the bottom of this case in a calm and collected manner. Laws were broken; foreigners in the country are obligated to abide by them.

lets see what happens in the court





> US is behaving as if we are torturing him in some secret cell. Instead he's getting bottled mineral water (an expensive commodity in Pakistan).



after gunning down two people in broad daylight, and begging for his blue passport

the police should also be reprimanded for their lack of professionalism.....is this interrogation or is it chai-mittai time? 




Looking at things in general, in Pakistan, I would go so far as to assert that our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Justice in this case, does matter.

and i would hope for God's sake that we begin to treat murder elsewhere in the country --whether political, or score-settling --that those cases are dealt with equally in magnitude.

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## was

these american guys need to understand that this is not iraq.
for me these ,allies, of pakistan.are even more dangerous than those talibunnys.
why so much interest for the eastern border?


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## Areesh

RaptorRX707 said:


> newbie, You seem annoying here, could you please kindly leave this thread. Hi, there is Aero India 2011 show, can you leave us alone?
> 
> be a good boy!


 
He won't leave this thread until kicked out of this forum. These guys are helpless. Suffering with some genetic issues they won't learn anything until some one grabs them by neck and throw them out of this forum.

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## Irfan Baloch

ashok321 said:


> How can my opinion be considered as facts ?


 
because you are constantly being an annoying pest for pages & pages?

you talk as in a matter of fact way dont you? when you taunt by saying immunity or not he is a free man?

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## Ababeel

If He is really responsible for the killings and has taken those sensitive picsthen he should to be let go without punishment or it will be a bad example and increase the courage of anti Pak element to carry out more such activities which is really jeopardising the safety n security of the nation. Let The US cry foul. Don't bow to any threats and it will be a very good example for US cospiracies to stop.


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## ashok321

Irfan Baloch said:


> because you are constantly being an annoying pest for pages & pages?
> 
> you talk as in a matter of fact way dont you? when you taunt by saying immunity or not he is a free man?


 
So few people have started to gang up against the free speech, that is me!

Well, if you have such an attitude, to try to throw out a person like me who has not violated any rules of PDF, and one who defends his point of view, something that differs that of yours, then you have audacity to be fair and ask for Rd`s fate to be sealed the way you want it - without waiting for trial as you have envisaged (that the trial would be there).

Well I refuse to be hoodwinked, but if you guys have made up your mind - bann me.

_Those who think it is permissible to tell white lies soon grow color-blind_


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Its pointless discussing with such people... You can have a bit of fun in a slagging match but even that has its limits...

The main problem with these people is that they cant bear the thought of Pakistan acting like a dignified state in any matter... Pity that they dont see this case involves the killing of two and another person dying by dangerous driving, the widow of one murdered poisoning herself... When I see an attitude like this from Indians I realize why Quaid e Azam Rahamat Ullah and Iqbal Rahmat Ullah and the others were so determined for Muslims to get a homeland... These Indians have not changed one bit since then and the only thing that would keep them happy is if Muslims were always humiliated or acted like slaves... 

Even if the courts were unfair, it would be a victory for Pakistan for this case to be decided by Pakistani courts... Now all brothers and sisters can understand our enemy's agitation!!!!

Have a good night O dear Pakistan.. Always hope for better days... Victory only comes from Allah and His promise to all of you is that it is Qareeb!!!!

Long Live Pakistan
Long Live those who love Pakistan

May the Shade of God cover Pakistan... despite all our sins and all our negligence... May God raise us as the best nation for the whole of mankind Ameen

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i wonder if diplomatic conventions applied also when one Mulla Zaeef was arrested and handed over to US.


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## MastanKhan

Buddy,

Apologies first---but who is Qaid a Azam Rahmat ullah and Iqbal Rahmat ullah---the religioinists deceit reeks out of the words.


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## VelocuR

*Court to decide Davis fate: Army*

By: Maqbool Malik | Published: February 10, 2011

*ISLAMABAD - Reaffirming total commitment to rule of law in the country, the top brass of Pakistan Army Wednesday supported decision of the government that case of US national Raymond Davis was a sub judice matter and let the court handle it.*

General Kayani is best. 

Link

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## MastanKhan

iPhone said:


> Revenge? who said anything about revenge? what about justice?
> 
> 
> And last but not least Mr. Mastaan Khan, you judged my character, so I will judge yours in return. I think at one point in your life you compromised your beliefs and your integrity for a comfortable life, but something is amiss now, right? therefore you want other people to follow in your footsteps. How does it feel when you look in the mirror?


 
Sir,

I apologize for that---but if you read your first post to my response---you might see that it might have been you took the first step in that direction---. But again---sorry for the offence. MK


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Yeah we seem to have some over anxious and over zealous non Paks here going crazy.
Not sure how it is any of their bees wax? I mean when do you stop and sit back?

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## Cynic Waheed

Easy with ur threats mr Obama. I cant believe US can get to this level to get this guy released. I have a dodgy feeling its more than just a spy. 

Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American - ABC News


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## Safriz

Cynic Waheed said:


> Easy with ur threats mr Obama. I cant believe US can get to this level to get this guy released. I have a dodgy feeling its more than just a spy.
> 
> Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American - ABC News



Yup same here....They are desperately trying to hide something.....

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## MastanKhan

Jana said:


> And a free human born free wont take all his life to be a slave.
> 
> its time we should start playing with fire once and for all.
> 
> 
> 
> *You can't speak yesterday's language to the concerns of today.
> Control the controllable*.


 
Hi,

Oh yeah---really----pakistanis have a habbit of talking big----and then they fizzle out just like that----once the emotions blow out ,the soda goes stale---.

If this incidence has the catalyst to change all that and make you act and think different---I am all for it---I guess we should have more these incidences so that we can come together as a nation---but then we fall into the " Masjid A Shabbh Bhar " syndrome---and that dos not help us at all.

You cannot let the emotions dictate the soverignity of a state/ a nation. The austrians did---and all the participants paid a heavy price in world war one----even the assasin of the austrian prince was shocked later on to see the number of deaths that the war had caused---.


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## fallstuff

*Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American, Say Officials*


Pakistani officials said President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences. 

*National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani, according to two Pakistani officials involved in negotiations about Davis, that the U.S. will kick Haqqani out of the U.S., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistan's president to Washington, if Davis, a U.S. embassy employee, is not released from custody by Friday. *
The outlines of the threat were confirmed to ABC News by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment. 

Davis, 36, is expected in court early Friday morning in Lahore to face charges of shooting two men on motorcycle on Jan. 25. Davis says he killed the men because they had been following his car and were trying to rob him. Video emerged Thursday of Davis showing his State Department credentials to Pakistani police officers and saying, "I'm a consultant." 

Davis is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport, and the U.S. has demanded his immediate release on the grounds of diplomatic immunity. The stand-off between Washington and Islamabad has brought the already tense relationship between two uneasy allies to a new low.

link:

Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American - ABC News


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## Cynic Waheed

Haha. I do hope he kicks haqqani out. Waisay bhi he looks more like ambassador of USA instead of Pak like they say. Lol.

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## Bilal Akhtar

i will rather say face the consequences,this is the first time after the post 9/11 age that pakistan has made a stand infront of the US,well the nato truck baracade was one too.We have our pride as well and the world will see what our nation is capable of.

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## VelocuR

"U.S. will kick Haqqani out of the U.S., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistan's president to Washington, if Davis, a U.S. embassy employee, is not released from custody by Friday. "

Empty threat. Nothing else. LOL. Haqqani should be expel. US is not stupid to cut off ties with Pakistan. Afghanistan, eh?


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## VCheng

Bilal Akhtar said:


> i will rather say face the consequences,this is the first time after the post 9/11 age that pakistan has made a stand infront of the US,well the nato truck baracade was one too.*We have our pride as well and the world will see what our nation is capable of*.



Indeed, the world shall soon see the capabilities of both sides.

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## Vassnti

Bilal Akhtar said:


> i will rather say face the consequences,this is the first time after the post 9/11 age that pakistan has made a stand infront of the US,well the nato truck baracade was one too.We have our pride as well and the world will see what our nation is capable of.


 
Yes sadly we will we will see what a Pakistan with out trade with out IMF with out US aid can do. 

No one seems to get it, the last country to hold US embassy staff Illegaly was Iran, if Davis doesnt go home i very much doubt Obama is going to win the next election he will be the President that caused iran gate 2.


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## W.11

Vassnti said:


> Yes sadly we will we will see what a Pakistan with out trade with out IMF with out US aid can do.
> 
> No one seems to get it, the last country to hold US embassy staff Illegaly was Iran, if Davis doesnt go home i very much doubt Obama is going to win the next election he will be the President that caused iran gate 2.


 
and i thought, the US aid, the imf loan is just going into zedari pocket???

watch the video where a us senator says that the aid is going into mr 10% pocket!!

so, no, we are fine and same with or without imf, or i must say we are worsening with imf loan, as the politicians are eating the loans but pakistan and its people have to bear the burden


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Vassnti said:


> Yes sadly we will we will see what a Pakistan with out trade with out IMF with out US aid can do.
> 
> No one seems to get it, the last country to hold US embassy staff Illegaly was Iran, if Davis doesnt go home i very much doubt Obama is going to win the next election he will be the President that caused iran gate 2.


 Bassnati, he is not going to VIN the 2nd turam. That is pretty much a done deal irrespective or this mess and egypt..


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## Bilal Akhtar

Why kerryluger why why not 
Eh tair e lahooti us rizk say maut achi jis rizk say aati ho parvaz main kotahi


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## fallstuff

Vassnti said:


> Yes sadly we will we will see what a Pakistan with out trade with out IMF with out US aid can do.
> 
> No one seems to get it, the last country to hold US embassy staff Illegaly was Iran, if Davis doesnt go home i very much doubt Obama is going to win the next election he will be the President that caused iran gate 2.


 
You made an interesting point. The GOP will tag him week as they did to Carter. If Obama backs off (which I think is very unlikely), GOP will smell blood in the water. Having said that media is surprisingly quiet here.


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## ares

Aston-Martin said:


> and i thought, the US aid, the imf loan is just going into zedari pocket???
> 
> watch the video where a us senator says that the aid is going into mr 10% pocket!!
> 
> so, no, we are fine and same with or without imf, or i must say we are worsening with imf loan, as the politicians are eating the loans but pakistan and its people have to bear the burden


 
You guys believe in too many conspiracy theories ..You went to IMF because you were desperate..your economy was on the verge of collapse and were refused economic aid by all your friends including China and Saudi Arabia..

Money from IMF has not gone any where..it is siting handsomely in your foreign reserves, or how do you think Dollar reserves quadrupled in less than two years?..It surely wasn't magic


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## Pak_Sher

Christian said:


> shutting your eyes, ears and screaming "BLAH BLAH BLAH I CANT HEAR YOU" is clearly working well huh?.



Same goes for you, post something useful and productive. Same old Indian red chillies coming out of your .........I would suggest to use hemoroid cream if good things on PDF have given you hamroids.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vassnti said:


> Yes sadly we will we will see what a Pakistan with out trade with out IMF with out US aid can do.
> 
> No one seems to get it, the last country to hold US embassy staff Illegaly was Iran, if Davis doesnt go home i very much doubt Obama is going to win the next election he will be the President that caused iran gate 2.


 
There is a world of difference between the Iran hostage crises and the arrest of Raymond Davis. While the formers was a criminal hostage taking and occupation of diplomats and diplomatic property, the latter is the legal arrest and detention of a US consulate worker (as he himself claims), after he shot and killed two Pakistanis, whose diplomatic immunity is not by any means certain.

America and its apologists can try and spin/distort the issue to try and draw parallels with the Iranian hostage crises, but the facts remain that Pakistan has done nothing illegal so far, given the confusion around the suspect's identity and his job description.

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## ajtr

posted already.............


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## MastanKhan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> America and its apologists can try and spin/distort the issue to try and draw parallels with the Iranian hostage crises, but the facts remain that Pakistan has done nothing illegal so far, given the confusion around the suspect's identity and his job description.


 
Hi,

That is so very true---indeed pak has not done anything illegal in arresting Mr Davis---and on top of that---he has been treated with kids gloves so far---. What has happened in this case----with the frequency of occurances of BW and other interferences----it had to happen---it is a numbers game---wrong place---wrong time---wrong people---somewhere someone would have pulled the plug---. What surprised me the most was that he was operating on his own---. So the question maybe asked---how many others are there----he is a white boy---we can recognize him----how about some latinos who can pass for pakistanis any time of the day---!

America is continuously falling in its own traps---first afghanistan---then iraq---now a stuation in pakistan---. If pakistan is in trouble----america is in as big a trouble as well---all diplomatic eyes are on this case as of now and they will stay with it---. It is a turn key moment.

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## Siddiqui A

they better not release him


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## RescueRanger

Vassnti said:


> Yes sadly we will we will see what a Pakistan with out trade with out IMF with out US aid can do.
> 
> No one seems to get it, the last country to hold US embassy staff Illegaly was Iran, if Davis doesnt go home i very much doubt Obama is going to win the next election he will be the President that caused iran gate 2.



Comparing Raymond Davis case to the Iran debacle is like comparing apples to oranges. One was illegal detention of tourists (suspected of spying) and this where a foreign official has killed two, and another was killed via reckless driving by a asset of the US Embassy. 

Under Art 41 and 41 of "Counselor Relations" : Since Davis worked at the Counselor General in Lahore this convention would apply, if you look at the law of the text, any official enjoying diplomatic immunity ( bar the ambassador) can be detained and tried in respect to a serious crime, where the sanctity of the law and norms of the host nation has been breached by the official. 

Now as far as i am concerned this is just all show and no action, so i don't expect much. Either way, the court will be deciding today to officially charge or release him from the courts.

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## Areesh

ashok321 said:


> So few people have started to gang up against the free speech, that is me!


 
We aren't against free speech. We are against lunatics from our neighbor on eastern border who are annoying and are too much pathetic. Hopefully in future you would try to behave sensibly and would only post when you have something useful to contribute. 


You have already created a lot of mess in this thread with your whining. Please don't do it again.

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## Awesome

Davis to be produced in court today  The Express Tribune



> ISLAMABAD: Raymond Davis will be produced before a judge of a lower court in Lahore on Friday (today) after the expiry of his 12-day investigation in police custody, an official, requesting anonymity, told The Express Tribune.
> 
> Davis, a US national, who is being held for killing two Pakistani motorcyclists in broad daylight in Lahore, was arrested on the spot after shooting Muhammad Faheem and Faizan Haider on Jan 27.
> Meanwhile, the provincial government is said to have assured Islamabad that it would not hamper any effort in resolving the issue diplomatically the source added.
> 
> Keeping in view the sensitivity of the issue and in the larger national interest, the Punjab government would never cause any embarrassment to the federal government, the source said.
> 
> In a related development, the police had strictly been ordered by the provincial government to avoid any press statement or a comment on the progress of the investigation, or any other aspect of the case.
> Faheems widow Shumaila who committed suicide, in her statement from her deathbed had said that she took her life because she felt that she would not get justice in view of the mounting pressure from the US to release her husbands killer.
> 
> After the completion of police investigation, the court has three options  to send Davis to jail in judicial custody or to further extend his police custody on the plea of the investigators, eminent lawyer Barrister Bacha told The Express Tribune.
> 
> The third option provided under law is to grant him bail on a petition either by the accused himself, or the US Consulate-General of Lahore on his behalf.
> 
> As a matter of understanding between the federal and provincial government, the Punjab government will not contest the case before the Lahore High Court when it will decide next week about the disputed claim of diplomatic immunity for the accused, the source revealed.
> The Express Tribune has also learnt that the US Consulate-General of Lahore has hired a prominent lawyer to defend its worker in both the courts, and to plead diplomatic immunity for Davis.
> 
> Washington says Davis is a member of the US embassys technical administrative staff and therefore entitled to full criminal immunity.
> He cannot be lawfully arrested or detained in accordance with the Vienna Convention, US State Department spokesperson Philip Crowley told reporters in Washington.
> 
> The federal government had never contested Washingtons claim and supported the argument, but maintained that the issue will be resolved by the court.
> 
> The LHC on a constitutional petition by a third party had issued a stay order barring the federal government from handing over Davis to Washington. Davis has also been placed on the Exit Control List by the ministry of interior on the court directive.
> 
> The provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah, who had been demanding the custody of a US Consulate vehicle and its driver who caused the death of another Pakistani citizen, is no more pressing his demand.
> The driver, who went to help Davis after the shooting and crushed to a motorcyclist Abdul Rahman to death is hiding in the consulate. The US consulate had flatly denied police access to the car and its driver despite repeated demands by the provincial minister of law.
> 
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 11th, 2011.


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## Pak123

* Raymond Davis sent on 14-day judicial remand*

LAHORE: US citizen Raymond Allen Davis a double murder accused, was sent on 14-day judicial remand. He was produced before a judge of a lower court in Lahore on Friday after the expiry of his physical remand, Geo News reported.

"He has been remanded in judicial custody for 14 days. The next hearing will be on February 25," Punjab government prosecutor Abdul Samad told reporters.

"He is being sent to central jail Kot Lakhpat," said police official Suhail Sukhera in reference to the high-security prison in the eastern city of Lahore, where the US official confessed to shooting two men in self-defence last month.

Raymond Davis sent on 14-day judicial remand - GEO.tv

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## twoplustwoisfour

I have a simple query: How much attention is this event gathering in the United States? (If the question has been answered previously, kindly point me to the post as this thread has grown too long!!)

If this event is gathering attention similar to, lets say, the Daniel Pearl case, then I don't think either country would want to jeopardize their bilateral relations all due to one man.


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## Rafael

Cynic Waheed said:


> Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American - ABC News


 


Pak123 said:


> * Raymond Davis sent on 14-day judicial remand*
> 
> LAHORE: US citizen Raymond Allen Davis a double murder accused, was sent on 14-day judicial remand. He was produced before a judge of a lower court in Lahore on Friday after the expiry of his physical remand, Geo News reported.
> 
> "He has been remanded in judicial custody for 14 days. The next hearing will be on February 25," Punjab government prosecutor Abdul Samad told reporters.
> 
> "He is being sent to central jail Kot Lakhpat," said police official Suhail Sukhera in reference to the high-security prison in the eastern city of Lahore, where the US official confessed to shooting two men in self-defence last month.
> 
> Raymond Davis sent on 14-day judicial remand - GEO.tv



Interesting times ahead !


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

He has been charged under PPC 302 for murder and remanded to jail.


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## Mujahid

Pakistani police escort an armoured vehicle carrying an alleged US employee, Raymond Davis, arrive at court for a hearing in Lahore on February 11, 2011


*LAHORE: Pakistani police on Friday rejected the self-defence claim made by a US official who shot dead two men last month, saying it was a clear case of murder.
*

The police investigation and forensic report show it was not self-defence, Lahore city police chief Aslam Tareen told a news conference.

His plea has been rejected by police investigators, he said. He gave no chance to them to survive. That is why we consider it was not self-defence. We have proof it was not self-defence. It was clear murder.

Police reject Davis self-defence plea, say clear murder | World | DAWN.COM

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## twoplustwoisfour

Why are we denying the fact that the two men murdered were also intelligence agents? There is much more to this story than what is being played in the open.


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## Bratva

*During his remand with the police, Raymond Davis did not cooperate with the police, except what he had uttered during the initials few says of his arrest. Though he claimed to have killed two young Pakistani in self-defence, the police investigations have proved his plea of self-defence wrong. According to the sources, one of the two young men was killed from a distance of 51 feet and in a situation when the deceased was running away from the killer.*

Multiple security layers erected for Raymond Davis

SLAMABAD: *The Punjab government, fearing something fishy, will deploy multiple security cordons, including that of Rangers, in the Kot Lakhpat Jail to pre-empt a possible Hollywood Rambo-style sting operation by the US forces to get Raymond Davis released.

Punjab Police sources said that even otherwise the security of Davis had been tightened in view of serious security concerns that include some subversive act from India to get the double-murderer to embarrass Pakistan.

&#8220;In sheer frustration, the Americans are capable of conducting a sting operation for which we are ensuring that all security measures are taken on our part,&#8221; a Punjab administration source said, adding that the security of Davis was being shaped up while keeping in mind all possibilities whether regarding an assault on him, a terrorist attack and even a strike by US commandos to get him forcibly released.*

A Punjab government spokesman and secretary information, Mohyuddin Wani, when approached, confirmed that Davis would be taken to the Kot Lakhpat Jail where he would be placed in a special cell which is detached from the normal barracks but set up for high-profile and high-value prisoners. 

&#8220;It is highly protected and fully secured,&#8221; Wani said, explaining that all possible security measures would be taken, including multiple security cordons for the protection of the double murderer. Wani said that Rangers would also be deployed in the outer cordon.

&#8220;We would ensure by using all means to protect and secure the prisoner,&#8221; he said. The secretary information, however, offered no comment when asked if the possibility of a sting operation by the US forces was also discussed. The Punjab government spokesman said that Davis would not be held in isolation in the jail but would be kept with some foreign prisoners. Davis, who would be produced before a Lahore magistrate on Friday, is expected to be sent on judicial remand.

According to sources, the Punjab government was under pressure to notify some rest house or hotel as jail for the comfort of Raymond Davis but the authorities decided that like any other criminal, Davis should be sent to jail. However, the source said, it is ensured that the American killer is not exposed to the kind of inmates who may try to harm him.

During his remand with the police, Raymond Davis did not cooperate with the police, except what he had uttered during the initials few says of his arrest. Though he claimed to have killed two young Pakistani in self-defence, the police investigations have proved his plea of self-defence wrong. According to the sources, one of the two young men was killed from a distance of 51 feet and in a situation when the deceased was running away from the killer.

Police investigators see his act as an excessive and disproportionate use of force, which is not covered in the definition of self-defence as per the law of the land. Without having been fired at or threatened to death, the police sources said, Davis killed the two young men by excessive and disproportionate use of force.

Because of his non-cooperation, the police though could not probe Davis about his covert and overt activities. The provincial government has constituted a joint investigation team comprising police and members of intelligence agencies to analyse the material and gadgets recovered from the American killer.

Multiple security layers erected for Raymond Davis

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## Aslan

Geo is just reporting that according to a US based paper there are some new developments that the US authorities have gave Friday as a deadline for the release of davis, and also have threatened that if that didnt take place they will shut down the Embassies and cut of ties that is of today. And also Zardaris visti will be canceled, where Geo is saying that there are reports that Zardari has canceled his visit already.


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## Aslan

The question that arises from this is that what if the americans do what they are threating to do, what will happen next. Now what kind of effect will it have on the WOT.


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## DV RULES

Punjab government is waiting for Goolmaiz conference's results so they extend remand.

Now GOP got nervous and stepped out from stunned situation, they are not in hurry as US so far.

What could happened next, there will be application of world common practice, divert the attention of people toward another national problems, may be series of Blasts, any kind of political stage drama or something like that. All active players in world strategy used to play like that and Pakistan in the list these country.

All depend upon federal decision makers & military concerns. 

There can make deal like, let Davis in our custody & we will carry operation in your desired areas! May be.

May be deal on strategic issues! I don't think so.

May be Pakistan will not demand for second consulate worker(driver). 
Who knows, but one thing is clear GOP get success to realize American for hold on and not to hurry.

Lets see!

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## Imran Khan

WE simply dont care he will be in jail even next friday .

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## Rafael

In case they conduct an hollywood style operation, I hope some more are apprehended and others get killed


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## fawwaxs

*White House threatens Hussain Haqqani: report*

WASHINGTON: President Barack Obamas national security advisor has threatened to boot Pakistans ambassador Hussain Haqqani from the country if a US official arrested in Lahore was not released by Friday, ABC News said.

Citing two Pakistani officials, ABC News said late Thursday that National Security Advisor Tom Donilon made the threat after summoning Haqqani to the White House on Monday.

He also warned US consulates in Pakistan may be closed and an upcoming visit to Washington by Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari could be cancelled if US official Raymond Davis was not freed.

While the White House has declined to comment, a senior US official confirmed the details of the report to ABC News.

Davis was arrested on January 27 after allegedly shooting two men in broad daylight in a busy street  an incident that has sparked angry protests in Pakistan.

Meanwhile Friday a Pakistani court extended Davis remand by another 14 days as police rejected the self-defence claim that the American has made.

Haqqani took to his Twitter feed to deny the threats were ever made, however, posting the message: No US official, incl the NSA, has conveyed any personal threats 2 me or spoken of extreme measures, referring to the National Security Agency.


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## fawwaxs

Raymond Davis Sent To Jail For 14 Days On Judicial Remand: Media Not Allowed To Coverage: Raymond Davis Jailed: ... Raymond Davis Sent To Jail For 14 Days On Judicial Remand: Media Not Allowed To Coverage


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## Devil Soul

*Pakistani police: US man committed 'murder'*
By BABAR DOGAR, Associated Press &#8211; 33 mins ago
LAHORE, Pakistan &#8211; Investigators have determined that an American who shot dead two Pakistanis was not acting in self-defense and police will recommend he face murder charges, a Pakistani police official said Friday in a case that has roiled relations between the counterterrorism allies.
The U.S. says the American, 36-year-old Raymond Allen Davis, shot the Pakistanis on Jan. 27 because they were trying to rob him in the eastern city of Lahore. Washington insists his detention is illegal under international agreements covering diplomats because he was a U.S. Embassy staffer, and American officials have begun curbing diplomatic contacts and threatening to cut off billions in aid to Pakistan if he is not freed.
Pakistani leaders &#8212; loathe to incur a backlash in a public already rife with anti-U.S. sentiment &#8212; have for days avoided making definitive statements on Davis' legal status, instead saying the issue is up to the courts. The fact that rival political parties control the federal government and the government of Punjab province, where any trial would be held, is further complicating the Pakistani response.
Hours after a judge ordered that Davis be held for 14 more days and told the government to determine whether he has diplomatic immunity, *Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen stoked more fury by declaring that a police probe determined Davis was not defending himself.
"It was an intentional and cold blooded murder," Tareen told a news conference.
The police chief said Davis told interrogators that one of the Pakistani men had pointed his pistol at him.
However, Tareen said the slain man's pistol had been examined and officers found that all the bullets were in the magazine and no bullet was found in the chamber. Police also determined that the American shot and killed the second Pakistani as he tried to flee, hitting him in the back, Tareen said.*
*Tareen's remarks left open the possibility that the man with the empty pistol had still pointed the gun at the* American. The police chief said the issue of diplomatic immunity was a government matter but that the police have sent a preliminary charge sheet recommending Davis face a murder trial.
American officials did not immediately respond to repeated requests for comment Friday. However, the judge's agreement with a defense motion that the government must clarify whether Davis has immunity could give the U.S. representatives some room to maneuver with their Pakistani counterparts.
Davis is to be held in a jail in the Kot Lakhpat area of Lahore, said Abdus Samad, a government prosecutor in the case who briefed reporters after the Friday court session, which was closed to media. His next court appearance is set for Feb. 25. Samad said that Judge Anik Anwar also agreed to get the government's response on a defense request that any trial in the case be held out of public view.
Pakistani leaders may not want to risk anger within the population if they let Davis go, but the cash-strapped country relies on billions in aid from the U.S., which needs its cooperation to help end the war in Afghanistan.
Exactly what sort of work Davis does for the U.S. is a major issue because it could affect Pakistani determinations about his diplomatic immunity.
U.S. officials in Islamabad will say only that he was an American Embassy employee who was considered part of the "administrative and technical staff." That designation gives him blanket immunity, the U.S. says.
There has also been controversy in Pakistan over the fact that Davis was armed. A senior U.S. official has told The Associated Press that Davis was authorized by the United States to carry a weapon, but that it was a "gray area" whether Pakistani law permitted him to do so.
Long before Davis emerged on the public consciousness, conspiracy theories about armed American mercenaries roaming the country were common among the population and sections of the media here.
According to records from the Pentagon, the 36-year-old Davis is a former Special Forces soldier who left the army in August 2003 after 10 years of service. A Virginia native, he served with infantry divisions prior to joining the 3rd Special Forces Group in Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
In 1994, he was part of the U.N. peacekeeping force in Macedonia. His record includes several awards and medals, including for good conduct.
Public records also show Davis runs a company with his wife registered in Las Vegas called Hyperion Protective Services, though it was not immediately clear whether the company has had many contracts with the U.S. government.
The U.S. Embassy says he has a diplomatic passport and a visa valid through June 2012. It also said in a recent statement that the U.S. had notified the Pakistani government of Davis' assignment more than a year ago.
After the shootings in Lahore on Jan. 27, Davis called for backup. The American car rushing to the scene hit a third Pakistani, a bystander, who later died. The U.S. has said nothing about the Americans involved in that third death, though Pakistani police have said they want to question them as well.
(This version CORRECTS that American may face murder charges, not one murder charge.)
Pakistani police: US man committed 'murder' - Yahoo! News


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> Good job done pakistan govt by not bowing to the pressures of usa.Hope indian govt can learn from pakistan on how to show spine instead of becoming lapdog of usa and licking uncle sam's boots.


 
Oh Shut up young women , You are Stepping out of Your Limits, If You cannot Control your Ability to Debate, Please do not Indulge in a Debate, This is not the place to showcase your Anti India Feelings.. Come to a thread Related to India and Spit it out which you have been doing, Atleast let Pakistanis have a Peaceful time in there thread...


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## trident2010

*US tells Pakistan to release Davis or its envoy would be kicked out *


ISLAMABAD: The US has threatened Pakistan that its envoy will be "kicked out" if it fails to release the American official arrested for gunning down two men in Lahore by Friday, according to a media report.

National security advisor Tom Donilon told Pakistani envoy Hussain Haqqani that the Obama administration will "kick him out of the US", close consulates in Pakistan and cancel President Asif Ali Zardari's upcoming visit to Washington if US official Raymond Davis is not released by Friday, ABC News channel quoted two unnamed Pakistani officials as saying.

Donilon reportedly conveyed the warning to Haqqani on Monday evening.

The "outlines of the threat" were also confirmed to ABC News by a senior US official who was not authorized to speak on the record.

White House spokesperson Tommy Vietor declined comment.

Haqqani denied the development via Twitter, saying in a message that no "US official, incl the NSA, has conveyed any personal threats 2 me or spoken of extreme measures".

Davis, 36, was on Friday sent to jail for 14 days by a court in Lahore even as city police chief Aslam Tareen said he had been charged with murder as there was no proof to back his claim that he had acted in self-defence when he shot and killed the two men on January 27.

Davis has claimed that he opened fire after the two armed men followed his car and tried to rob him.

Video emerged this week of Davis showing his state department credentials to Pakistani police officers during an interrogation and saying, "I'm a consultant".

Davis is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport and the US has demanded his immediate release on the grounds that he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

The stand-off between Washington and Islamabad has taken the tense relationship between the two countries to a new low.



US tells Pakistan to release Davis or its envoy would be kicked out - The Times of India


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## Imran Khan

for god sake please kick him out he the one who give vise to CIA and BLACKWATER and he is there as US envoy not like pakistani he is treater

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## Imran Khan

US tells Pakistan to release Davis or its envoy would be kicked out 

why TOI always use cheap words against pakistan -china?

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## Spring Onion

Aslan said:


> Geo is just reporting that according to a US based paper there are some new developments that the US authorities have gave Friday as a deadline for the release of davis, and also have threatened that if that didnt take place they will shut down the Embassies and cut of ties that is of today. And also Zardaris visti will be canceled, where Geo is saying that there are reports that Zardari has canceled his visit already.


 
There is also a report that they demand his release otherwise they will kick out their oppsss i mean out envoy Hussian Haqqani from US

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## Spring Onion

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Why are we denying the fact that the two men murdered were also intelligence agents? There is much more to this story than what is being played in the open.


 
because you are denying Davis is CIA/US spy and what should be done to enemy spies ????
*
Yeh seems there is more to it just imagine if he was spying on our Nuclear reactors in Khushab ? our missiles deployment at border with India ?*


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## twoplustwoisfour

Imran Khan said:


> for god sake please kick him out he the one who give vise to CIA and BLACKWATER and he is there as US envoy not like pakistani he is treater


 
Hahahahahaha


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## kugga

Guys at least have a respect for an elderly person who's also a military professional. I mean if you are against India it's your choice but don't insult anyone.

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## twoplustwoisfour

Jana said:


> because you are denying Davis is CIA/US spy and what should be done to enemy spies ????
> *
> Yeh seems there is more to it just imagine if he was spying on our Nuclear reactors in Khushab ? our missiles deployment at border with India ?*


 
Ma'am, I never denied that Davis is CIA/US spy. I challenge you to point out the post of mine where I have denied anything like that.


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## trident2010

Imran Khan said:


> why TOI always use cheap words against pakistan -china?



Enjoy 

*

Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American, Say Officials*

Pakistani officials said President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences.

National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani, according to two Pakistani officials involved in negotiations about Davis, that the *U.S. will kick Haqqani out of the U.S*., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistan's president to Washington, if Davis, a U.S. embassy employee, is not released from custody by Friday.

The outlines of the threat were confirmed to ABC News by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment.

Ambassador Haqqani denied, via Twitter, that any "US official, incl the NSA, has conveyed any personal threats 2 me or spoken of extreme measures."

Davis, 36, is expected in court early Friday morning in Lahore to face charges of shooting two men on motorcycle on Jan. 25. Davis says he killed the men because they had been following his car and were trying to rob him. Video emerged Thursday of Davis showing his State Department credentials to Pakistani police officers and saying, "I'm a consultant."

Davis is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport, and the U.S. has demanded his immediate release on the grounds of diplomatic immunity. The stand-off between Washington and Islamabad has brought the already tense relationship between two uneasy allies to a new low.



Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American - ABC News


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## Spring Onion

We will be happy if US kicks out its envoy Hussain Haqqani

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## IndianArmy

kugga said:


> Guys at least have a respect for an elderly person who's also a military professional. I mean if you are against India it's your choice but don't insult anyone.


 
Haha, Sir, Leave it... I dont take it personally, But you know I cannot do much if it comes from Jana as Of today I am Afraid of only 2 things, One is Myself and the other is Journalists

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## Spring Onion

IndianArmy said:


> Haha, Sir, Leave it... I dont take it personally, But you know I cannot do much if it comes from Jana as Of today I am Afraid of only 2 things, One is Myself and the other is Journalists


 
 but i dint insult you sir was just sharing a light joke ehhh come on i was still calling you a young man

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## All-Green

It is very important for the Government of Pakistan to let the investigation and trial run its course and not be bullied into committing a grave error of letting it all slide.
Such a move shall not only deal a severe blow to the political parties (in power in Pakistan) but it shall also cause a permanent dent in any meaningful relationship between Pakistan and USA.

The GOP should make USA realize that they are doing exactly what USA would have done since it is all about justice and rights of the people.
Diplomatic immunity or not, there is no immunity for murder and it is yet to be established whether it was self defense or murder which occurred that fateful day.
We shall all respect the verdict of the Pakistani higher courts whatever it is, as we have been doing in the past few years on many issues; however letting Raymond go without a trial shall certainly amount to playing with fire.

It is the right of the families of the Pakistani victims to know the truth after a fair trial and get a decision based on investigation and court proceedings.
That is the only way to proceed here, in the interest of all involved and for the sake of justice which we all desire.

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## Developereo

Imran Khan said:


> for god sake please kick him out he the one who give vise to CIA and BLACKWATER and he is there as US envoy not like pakistani he is treater


 
We solve Davis and Haqqani problem.
Two for the price of one.
(Now if only we can get the US to imprison Zardari as retaliation...)

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## IndianArmy

Jana said:


> but i dint insult you sir was just sharing a light joke ehhh come on i was still calling you a young man


 
Well' Since you have Addressed me Young man, I would try forgiving you  ... Btw are you a Free Lancer??


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## All-Green

Jana said:


> We will be happy if US kicks out its envoy Hussain Haqqani


 
I guess we should not tell the Government of USA that it is the desire of 99.999999 % Pakistanis to see Hussain being kicked out of USA.
Hell we wont even complain if he is kicked multiple times...

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## Rafael

Mr. Davis wouldn't have thought in his worst nightmare that he will be treated like this when he killed those two guys. He probably thought that he would scot free in 2-3 days max. but look where he has landed himself. Already been 15 days and LHC gave his judicial remand for another 14 days. Still he would be hoping that US govt. can do something and he gets free sooner.

I am wondering what song will he be humming right now? Probably John Mayer's "....Half of my heart's got grip on the situation; Half of my heart needs time..."

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## Developereo

The GOP should invite the FBI to join the investigation in observer status.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Americans will kick out Haqqani?? Damit could nt they just hang him instead??


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## Imran Khan

Sohni Dharti said:


> The GOP should invite the FBI to join the investigation in observer status.


 
what we do if they kill more 5 police men by the name of self defense ?

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## Developereo

Imran Khan said:


> what we do if they kill more 5 police men by the name of self defense ?



Come on, seriously. It would be a good conciliatory gesture.


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## Abu Basit

i would love to see the show "haqqani kicked out"


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## Imran Khan

Sohni Dharti said:


> Come on, seriously. It would be a good conciliatory gesture.


 
we need to kick out every amercan from pak land sir thats the only way to save pakistan. look iran

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## kugga

After a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time I have seen my nation united at one issue Thanks Raymond Davis or whatever your name is


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## twoplustwoisfour

Imran Khan said:


> we need to kick out every amercan from pak land sir thats the only way to save pakistan. look iran


 
If an American had said something like this about Pakistanis, we'd all have jumped over him calling him racist. Just saying


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## kugga

twoplustwoisfour said:


> If an American had said something like this about Pakistanis, we'd all have jumped over him calling him racist. Just saying


 
We are not there to dictate them or for spying hope you get that


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## twoplustwoisfour

kugga said:


> We are not there to dictate them or for spying hope you get that


 
Nope, but in their current perception, you are out there for terrorism and destroying the current way of American life.


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## Imran Khan

twoplustwoisfour said:


> If an American had said something like this about Pakistanis, we'd all have jumped over him calling him racist. Just saying


 
no sir believe me i will be happy we got back our talented Pakistani which serve to USA.

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## jahangeer yousaf

WASHINGTON: President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences, US media quoted Pakistani officials as saying. 

According to the reported published in ABC News, National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani that the U.S. will kick him out of the U.S., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistani President to Washington, if Davis is not released from custody by Friday. 

According to the ABC News, the outlines of the threat were confirmed by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment.

Meanwhile, Ambassador Haqqani, in a message on social networking website denied that any US official has conveyed any personal threats to him or spoken of extreme measures.

Geo.Exclusive


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## jahangeer yousaf

WASHINGTON: President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences, US media quoted Pakistani officials as saying. 

According to the reported published in ABC News, National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani that the U.S. will kick him out of the U.S., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistani President to Washington, if Davis is not released from custody by Friday. 

According to the ABC News, the outlines of the threat were confirmed by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment.

Meanwhile, Ambassador Haqqani, in a message on social networking website denied that any US official has conveyed any personal threats to him or spoken of extreme measures.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Imran Khan said:


> no sir believe me i will be happy we got back our talented Pakistani which serve to USA.


 
I'm sure some of our Pakistani friends on this forum who are sitting in the US would like to say something about that .

Anyways, this story has really taken away the focus from the actual fighting going on. How much will this incident affect the fighting in Afghanistan?


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## Imran Khan

ohhhhhhh i forget to tell you guys .you should thank god we got all 18 f-16 other wise first step of US will stop f-16 transfer hehehehe


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## jahangeer yousaf

not all 18 one still left


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## RabzonKhan

*No threats given to Haqqani: US embassy*

DAWN.COM(1 hour ago) 



*ISLAMABAD: The US embassy in Pakistan, in response to the US medias take on the Raymond Davis case, said that the media reports were fabricated and that the US and Pakistan maintain a relationship of trust which could not be threatened.*

On Friday, the embassy confirmed that Pakistani Ambassador to the US, Husain Haqqani did meet National Security Advisor Tom Donilon to discuss the release of Davis, however, no threats were given to the envoy.

*Speaking exclusively to DawnNews, Acting US spokesperson Courtney Beale confirmed that the Pakistani envoy was not being removed from Washington and neither were the strategic dialogue or trilateral talks going to be affected by this case.*

The ABC report is not true. The description of the conversations in the report are simply inaccurate, Beale said.

Beale also said that there was no change of plan in President Asif Ali Zardaris trip to the US, and nor was President Obama planning to cancel his trip to Pakistan. The spokesperson said that the US embassy and consulates will continue work as per usual in Pakistan.

Beale said that Davis had acted out in self-defense and because he has diplomatic immunity, Pakistans attitude towards the case was not valid. The spokesperson said that the Davis case can be resolved by mutual cooperation between Pakistan and the US.

*The US and Pakistan remain partners and we look forward to resolving the Raymond Davis case in accordance with international and Pakistani law and in the spirit of our countries friendship.*


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## madooxno9

> ISLAMABAD: The US has threatened Pakistan that its envoy will be "kicked out" if it fails to release the American official arrested for gunning down two men in Lahore by Friday, according to a media report.
> 
> National security advisor Tom Donilon told Pakistani envoy Hussain Haqqani that the Obama administration will "kick him out of the US", close consulates in Pakistan and cancel President Asif Ali Zardari's upcoming visit to Washington if US official Raymond Davis is not released by Friday, ABC News channel quoted two unnamed Pakistani officials as saying.
> 
> Donilon reportedly conveyed the warning to Haqqani on Monday evening.
> 
> The "outlines of the threat" were also confirmed to ABC News by a senior US official who was not authorized to speak on the record.
> 
> White House spokesperson Tommy Vietor declined comment.
> 
> Haqqani denied the development via Twitter, saying in a message that no "US official, incl the NSA, has conveyed any personal threats 2 me or spoken of extreme measures".
> 
> Davis, 36, was on Friday sent to jail for 14 days by a court in Lahore even as city police chief Aslam Tareen said he had been charged with murder as there was no proof to back his claim that he had acted in self-defence when he shot and killed the two men on January 27.
> 
> Davis has claimed that he opened fire after the two armed men followed his car and tried to rob him.
> 
> Video emerged this week of Davis showing his state department credentials to Pakistani police officers during an interrogation and saying, "I'm a consultant".
> 
> Davis is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport and the US has demanded his immediate release on the grounds that he enjoys diplomatic immunity.
> 
> The stand-off between Washington and Islamabad has taken the tense relationship between the two countries to a new low.


  ................................................................


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## RabzonKhan

*Davis rigmarole*

Dawn
Feb 11 2011

THE Raymond Davis affair has reached dimensions that could put further pressure on the already frayed US-Pakistan relations. The State Department may deny reports that Washington has threatened to cut off all contact with Islamabad, but the intense diplomatic pressure on Pakistan has become public. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has told Gen Kayani she wants Mr Davis freed, and a number of American lawmakers have flaunted their country`s superpower status by making clear all aid to Pakistan, especially the military part of it, would be cut off. There are reports that President Asif Ali Zardari`s March visit to the US may be called off, and that would invariably mean the cancellation of President Barack Obama`s scheduled visit to this country. 

*From the day Mr Davis shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, it is his status that has been controversial. Regrettably, neither of the two governments has been consistent in its stand on the mystery that seems to surround Mr Davis`s calling.* The Vienna Convention goes in favour of the man`s release if it is confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt that he is a diplomat. However, his multiple `business cards` with varying identifications and the fact that he was carrying a gun which he had no hesitation in using against two Pakistanis, who were themselves  according to the Lahore police  armed, confound matters. It makes it difficult for the host country to decide which side of the Vienna protocol Mr Davis is on. *From the point of view of Pakistan`s domestic scene, the issue is packed with dynamite, and a government as indecisive and infirm as the present one may find it difficult to ignore a possible backlash by the religious right.*

*Pakistan-American relations are far too important for the region and the war on terror to become hostage to an act of indiscretion on the part of an individual. While an aid-giver`s hauteur and a recipient`s predicament are obvious, Washington should realise it is quiet diplomacy that will resolve the issue rather than aid cut-off threats, which will be counter-productive and only add to anti-American sentiments in Pakistan.*


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## Imran Khan

now look guys whats importance of a citizen to other govs and look USA daily kill our 10 citizens with missile attacks. we are same like Palestine


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

trident2010 said:


> Enjoy
> 
> *
> 
> Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American, Say Officials*
> 
> Pakistani officials said President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences.
> 
> National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani, according to two Pakistani officials involved in negotiations about Davis, that the *U.S. will kick Haqqani out of the U.S*., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistan's president to Washington, if Davis, a U.S. embassy employee, is not released from custody by Friday.
> 
> The outlines of the threat were confirmed to ABC News by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment.
> 
> Ambassador Haqqani denied, via Twitter, that any "US official, incl the NSA, has conveyed any personal threats 2 me or spoken of extreme measures."
> 
> Davis, 36, is expected in court early Friday morning in Lahore to face charges of shooting two men on motorcycle on Jan. 25. Davis says he killed the men because they had been following his car and were trying to rob him. Video emerged Thursday of Davis showing his State Department credentials to Pakistani police officers and saying, "I'm a consultant."
> 
> Davis is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport, and the U.S. has demanded his immediate release on the grounds of diplomatic immunity. The stand-off between Washington and Islamabad has brought the already tense relationship between two uneasy allies to a new low.
> 
> 
> 
> Obama Advisor Delivered Presidential Threat To Pakistan Over Detained American - ABC News


Yes, yes - please kick Haqqani out.

This is the same man who essentially blackmailed the GoP into letting him continue as ambassador when there was talk of having him removed by allegedly threatening to 'reveal state secrets' of that happened.

If anything, the US has the most to lose by 'kicking Haqqani out', since he is 'America's man' in any case.

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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


> ohhhhhhh i forget to tell you guys .you should thank god we got all 18 f-16 other wise first step of US will stop f-16 transfer hehehehe


 
They still got you, if they want to - on spare parts!


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## Imran Khan

ashok321 said:


> They still got you, if they want to - on spare parts!


 
ja apna kam ker bachy


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## ares

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Yes, yes - please kick Haqqani out.
> 
> This is the same man who essentially blackmailed the GoP into letting him continue as ambassador when there was talk of having him removed by allegedly threatening to 'reveal state secrets' of that happened.
> 
> If anything, the US has the most to lose by 'kicking Haqqani out', since he is 'America's man' in any case.



If this news is true then..
I think you are just concentrating on the personality of person in context and not on what this gesture actually means 

ie. Kicking out of Pakistani ambassador and closing consulates means, US will be breaking diplomatic relations with Pakistan..leaving aside the effect this move will have on Pakistan's economy, defence, trade and balance of power in the region .
This will also mean henceforth Pakistanis immigrants settled in US will shipped back as their visas will not be renewed .
Naturalized US citizens of Pakistani origin will not be able to visit their home country from US, probably will have to go to a third country to get a Pakistani visa.
This move inevitably spell doom for one million (aprox) Pakistani dispora settled/working in US.


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## DV RULES

Imran Khan said:


> we need to kick out every amercan from pak land sir thats the only way to save pakistan. look iran


 
To act like as Iranian is not a GOOD idea, we have our own regional policy, not forget it.


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## DV RULES

Imran Khan said:


> ohhhhhhh i forget to tell you guys .you should thank god we got all 18 f-16 other wise first step of US will stop f-16 transfer hehehehe


 
As US state department we will receive last F-16 after 5 years.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

The problem is that Americans are creating such a big fuss over this because it will set a dangerous precedent agains them and their spies and agents wont be able to roam freely as before!!!


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## DV RULES

Sohni Dharti said:


> The GOP should invite the FBI to join the investigation in observer status.


 
*No need to invite FBI & no need to create more complications in case, our investigation agencies qualified enough. We can't trust outsiders considering the importance of case, what you will do if FBI over preplanned agenda announced that Davis fired in self defense? Then you will put yourself in no way out situation. *


*Apne paon per kulhari mat maro*


Investigation authorities have decided that he did crime so enough.


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## SEAL

Raymond Davis 'in telephone contact with Islamic terror group.

Detained US official 'in telephone contact with Islamic terror group' - Telegraph

*A US official, detained in Pakistan after shooting dead two men, had made contact with Taliban-linked extremists in the country's lawless, tribal region, according to details of phone records leaked by the police. 
*
*Sources close to the investigation said Raymond Davis, 36, had made a series of telephone calls to South Waziristan, a tribal area along the border with Afghanistan synonymous with militant activity.*

The mystery surrounding Davis has deepened since he was arrested in Lahore two weeks ago. He has told police officers he shot dead two men in self defence.

The US insists he is a diplomat based at the embassy in Islamabad and should be granted immunity.

However, security sources have leaked a series of details suggesting that he may have had a clandestine role.

*"His phone records clearly show he was in contact with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, for what reason we can only speculate," said a police officer, referring to a terrorist group with close links to the Pakistani Taliban. *

Hamid Gul, a former head of Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, said the phone calls suggested he was a secret agent.

"This is a classic intelligence technique  to get inside the head of the enemy," he said.

Davis, who is due to appear in court on Friday, is a former special forces soldier who left the US army in 2003 after 10 years of service, according to Pentagon records.

Mobile phone footage obtained by the Dunya TV channel shows him pleading for the return of his passport shortly after his arrest.

"I need to tell the embassy where I am at," he said, during a confused interrogation as police officers interrupt and laugh in the background.

He went on to tell them that he was working at the US consulate in Lahore "I just work as a consultant there, with the [Regional Affairs Office]," he said.

His arrest is deeply embarrassing to the governments of both Pakistan and the US, which has suspended some high-level talks in order to increase pressure on Islamabad.


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## afriend

Haqqani would be saying.. yeh amrika or pakistan mere kursie keep peeche kyon hein.. chod de raymond shaimond ko..!!! hehehe.

I think i saw pictuer with the guy who dieded with the gun. So there should be some truth in what the americans where saying. But yes all should be revealed through proper investigation. I would say pakistan never should let go of this guy without a trial. They shouldnt feel they can arm twist anybody. or come to any country do whatever they want and leave freely. 

India did that shameless act few times one with the accused of bhopal gas tragedy and other with purilia arms drop case...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ares said:


> If this news is true then..
> I think you are just concentrating on the personality of person in context and not on what this gesture actually means
> 
> ie. Kicking out of Pakistani ambassador and closing consulates means, US will be breaking diplomatic relations with Pakistan..leaving aside the effect this move will have on Pakistan's economy, defence, trade and balance of power in the region .
> This will also mean henceforth Pakistanis immigrants settled in US will shipped back as their visas will not be renewed .
> Naturalized US citizens of Pakistani origin will not be able to visit their home country from US, probably will have to go to a third country to get a Pakistani visa.
> This move inevitably spell doom for one million (aprox) Pakistani dispora settled/working in US.


 
The move, even if true, will only mean the expulsion of a diplomat or two by the US, and subsequently by Pakistan. Given the fact that both countries have significant interests with the other at the current moment, a complete breakup of diplomatic relations is simply not feasible and extremely unlikely.

These are just conveniently leaked threats to pressure Pakistan - more bombast than substance. So long as Pakistan seeks to follow a legal and fair course in the detention (and if necessary trial) of Raymond Davis, and allows the US to monitor proceedings and assist in his defence, nothing of the sort will happen. A few talks might get canceled here and there, and maybe the Presidential visits, but that is it.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> The problem is that Americans are creating such a big fuss over this because it will set a dangerous precedent agains them and their spies and agents wont be able to roam freely as before!!!


 
As I have said before, this case justifies Pakistan's reluctance to issue visas to the hordes of officials the US was demanding (under the guise of monitoring aid disbursement), but was eventually forced to accept.

One reason the US is focusing on a very large number of small projects across the country (instead of funding large projects such as major dams, power plants, steel plants, motorways etc.) is that it provides them the excuse to have their 'staff' travel all across the country to 'monitor' these projects - i.e much easier intelligence gathering.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

fox said:


> look at these pathetic indians


 
*Please refrain from such language. You can make your point without resorting to abuse and derogatory comments. It only lessens the worth of your argument and your credibility as a poster when you make comments such as the one quoted.*

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Imran Khan said:


> we need to kick out every amercan from pak land sir thats the only way to save pakistan. look iran


 
That is over the top. 

What we need to do is ensure that every US embassy/consulate employee and American visitor is properly vetted and his/her job description/reason for visiting is clear and unambiguous.

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## Markus

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is over the top.
> 
> What we need to do is ensure that every US embassy/consulate employee and American visitor is properly vetted and his/her job description/reason for visiting is clear and unambiguous.


 
Thats not possible. No one will ever reveal their true intentions.

Actually, ISI was doing the right job of following Davis.

Things went wrong bcoz of actions of Davis.


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## AstanoshKhan

Look at the way he's being treated, atleast show some respect damn it but what else could be expected from these Sarkaaari goons.


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## AstanoshKhan

Markus said:


> Thats not possible. No one will ever reveal their true intentions.
> 
> *Actually, ISI was doing the right job of following Davis*.
> 
> Things went wrong bcoz of actions of Davis.


 
The myth about ISI in this case has been debunked over and over again. Don't play cheap shots bud.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

US-Pakistan tussle is surely making india very happy............ Just hope this issue ends without any damage to US-PAK relations.


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## Markus

AstanoshKhan said:


> The myth about ISI in this case has been debunked over and over again. Don't play cheap shots bud.


 
Whats there to get angry in?

ISI is an intelligence agency and was just doing its job.

RAW and CIA do the same on foreign diplomats.


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## ares

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The move, even if true, will only mean the expulsion of a diplomat or two by the US, and subsequently by Pakistan. Given the fact that both countries have significant interests with the other at the current moment, a complete breakup of diplomatic relations is simply not feasible and extremely unlikely.
> 
> These are just conveniently leaked threats to pressure Pakistan - more bombast than substance. So long as Pakistan seeks to follow a legal and fair course in the detention (and if necessary trial) of Raymond Davis, and allows the US to monitor proceedings and assist in his defence, nothing of the sort will happen. A few talks might get canceled here and there, and maybe the Presidential visits, but that is it.


 
I too believe at this point US playing Poker and is betting as high it can ..but can Pakistan afford to call US bluff and be proven wrong?? ..after all expulsion of Diplomatic staff and closing consulates is a penultimate step to completely breaking off the diplomatic relations.

At this point, you are hoping that after closing of consulates and expulsion of ambassadors, matters will not escalate further.. but what if they do?..who will be the biggest looser?


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## RazorMC

he admits he's a consultant to the Consulate !!!

Then that means the US Embassy was lying that he works for them (in the embassy) and that also means no diplomatic immunity !!!

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## Super Falcon

Agreed with imran bhai kick out all americans out of pakistan forever stop buying anything from USA and close all relations and embasies of USA in pakistan dont ask USA for aid becoz this aid in short term time idea iss good but in longer term we will be americans dog every single pak if we close all relations with india in short time we might have lot of probleums but in longer term it will make pakistani nation and economy grows 100 times in year what it is today


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## Super Falcon

and also hang this davis till death becoz he is american israeli spy in pakistan and send his dead body to USA other wise this govt has no right to be in govt and also message to armed forces you are here becoz of pakistani people not becoz of savig americans and dont get in american pressure of aid im sure USA will use armed forces generals of pakistan in this case to


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Markus said:


> Thats not possible. No one will ever reveal their true intentions.
> 
> Actually, ISI was doing the right job of following Davis.
> 
> Things went wrong bcoz of actions of Davis.



Perhaps - but look at Davis's job description for example. What does it mean, which one is it, out of the several provided by the US embassy and Davis himself? There needs to be a clear declaration of his role and job - if he is a technical adviser, then for what? Is such a position necessary given the functions of the US embassy? How many 'advisers' does the embassy need? All this needs to be looked at again and the extra US embassy and consulate staff cut by Pakistan through a revoking (or refusal to renew) of the visas of staff whose function is not clear and necessary.

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## VelocuR

It is very important to *IGNORE*......stupid threats from USA. It send very strong messages in proper gestures. Amazing! 

I am certain our people will be watchful on next foreigners!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ares said:


> At this point, you are hoping that after closing of consulates and expulsion of ambassadors, matters will not escalate further.. but what if they do?..who will be the biggest looser?


They won't, not over one low ranking man whose diplomatic status and actions have come in for a speculative treatment even amongst some in the US media.

The thing is that the FO needs to come to a decision, communicate it to the US embassy to invite their response, and in case of a disagreement present it in front of the court and allow the Americans to argue their own position on both immunity, and if necessary, in defence of Davis in a trial.

It would be hard to whip up hysteria against Pakistan when Pakistan follows a transparent process and allows the US the right to challenge it in Pakistan's courts.

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## sohailbarki




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## VCheng

Agnostic Muslim: The real pressure on Pakistan will not be diplomatic, but economic, in a sustained and damaging manner, with other agencies being the face, not the USA. That will be the real test of Pakistani resolve.


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## VelocuR

VCheng said:


> Agnostic Muslim: The real pressure on Pakistan will not be diplomatic, but economic, in a sustained and damaging manner, with other agencies being the face, not the USA. That will be the real test of Pakistani resolve.


 
Do you expect Pakistan should keep quiet for the rest of life? Free murderers? 

FYI, USA just want to kick out Haqqani, closed consulate offices, nothing else.


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## CENTCOM

ares said:


> If this news is true then..
> I think you are just concentrating on the personality of person in context and not on what this gesture actually means
> 
> ie. Kicking out of Pakistani ambassador and closing consulates means, US will be breaking diplomatic relations with Pakistan..leaving aside the effect this move will have on Pakistan's economy, defence, trade and balance of power in the region .
> This will also mean henceforth Pakistanis immigrants settled in US will shipped back as their visas will not be renewed .
> Naturalized US citizens of Pakistani origin will not be able to visit their home country from US, probably will have to go to a third country to get a Pakistani visa.
> This move inevitably spell doom for one million (aprox) Pakistani dispora settled/working in US.


 
We would like to take the opportunity to inform all the readers that this story is not true: As the U.S. Embassy Islamabad confirmed in the statement below, the US government can state categorically that the description of the conversation in this report is simply inaccurate.

Correction for the Record: ABC News Story (02/11/2011) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan

CDR Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command

U.S. Central Command

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## ares

CENTCOM said:


> We would like to take the opportunity to inform all the readers that this story is not true: As the U.S. Embassy Islamabad confirmed in the statement below, the US government &#8220;can state categorically that the description of the conversation in this report is simply inaccurate.&#8221;
> 
> Correction for the Record: ABC News Story (02/11/2011) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan
> 
> CDR Speaks,
> 
> DET, United States Central Command
> 
> U.S. Central Command


 
U.S. Central Command | CENTCOM climbs aboard social media train

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## Imran Khan

CENTCOM said:


> We would like to take the opportunity to inform all the readers that this story is not true: As the U.S. Embassy Islamabad confirmed in the statement below, the US government can state categorically that the description of the conversation in this report is simply inaccurate.
> 
> Correction for the Record: ABC News Story (02/11/2011) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan
> 
> CDR Speaks,
> 
> DET, United States Central Command
> 
> U.S. Central Command


 
RESPECTED SIR 

i would like to inform you too that we know well how much usa can go down for its interests . you forces kill us daily by drones and missile strikes inside a sovereign country .show us the agreement between nation of pakistan and USA abut these attacks. your guys daily insult carry guns violate all the rules in Pakistan tell us which convention allow it?. your gov leave free the guys who kill innocents in front of camera in Iraq Afghanistan . you gov leave they guy which rape kill and innocent teen girl. your gov in 21 century have jails in Cuba which show us the stone age time mind of USA .are we forget the real face of USA in abu ghareeb and bagram jails? your gov force Pakistan to handover afghan ENVOY to usa in 2001 but same time ask for release this killer. you big mouth heliry bash on Pakistan for leave this killer of 2 pakistanis and indirectly her wife but same time she was bashing not to forgive traffic violations of diplomats in new York. 


USA believe in one law ------------- the law of power

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## afriend

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is over the top.
> 
> What we need to do is ensure that every US embassy/consulate employee and American visitor is properly vetted and his/her job description/reason for visiting is clear and unambiguous.


 
Add to that it should be made very clear that any actions by the visiotrs which endangers the safety secuirty of the citizens will seriously looked into and the people will be accountable for that.


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## DV RULES

fox said:


> Raymond Davis 'in telephone contact with Islamic terror group.
> 
> Detained US official 'in telephone contact with Islamic terror group' - Telegraph
> 
> *A US official, detained in Pakistan after shooting dead two men, had made contact with Taliban-linked extremists in the country's lawless, tribal region, according to details of phone records leaked by the police.
> *
> *Sources close to the investigation said Raymond Davis, 36, had made a series of telephone calls to South Waziristan, a tribal area along the border with Afghanistan synonymous with militant activity.*
> 
> The mystery surrounding Davis has deepened since he was arrested in Lahore two weeks ago. He has told police officers he shot dead two men in self defence.
> 
> The US insists he is a diplomat based at the embassy in Islamabad and should be granted immunity.
> 
> However, security sources have leaked a series of details suggesting that he may have had a clandestine role.
> 
> *"His phone records clearly show he was in contact with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, for what reason we can only speculate," said a police officer, referring to a terrorist group with close links to the Pakistani Taliban. *
> 
> Hamid Gul, a former head of Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, said the phone calls suggested he was a secret agent.
> 
> "This is a classic intelligence technique &#8211; to get inside the head of the enemy," he said.
> 
> Davis, who is due to appear in court on Friday, is a former special forces soldier who left the US army in 2003 after 10 years of service, according to Pentagon records.
> 
> Mobile phone footage obtained by the Dunya TV channel shows him pleading for the return of his passport shortly after his arrest.
> 
> "I need to tell the embassy where I am at," he said, during a confused interrogation as police officers interrupt and laugh in the background.
> 
> He went on to tell them that he was working at the US consulate in Lahore "I just work as a consultant there, with the [Regional Affairs Office]," he said.
> 
> His arrest is deeply embarrassing to the governments of both Pakistan and the US, which has suspended some high-level talks in order to increase pressure on Islamabad.


 
There need to find the link between terror acts in Lahore & Davis presence.. You all remember that after Peshawar serial Blasts last year many US official arrested by police & intelligence authorities for their negative activities but released on phone call from Ministry of interior and one of official from Peshawar consulate was deported as persona non grata. After that serial blasts started in Punjab and then in Karachi. Where i know we have consulates in Peshawar, Lahore & Karachi. Why they called back CIA resident from Islamabad in December and resident from Lahore? 

Or still he is innocent called by some good members!!!!!

*Again question over intelligence measures to ensure national security.*
or may be they have policy "First see what happened and then active" which would be "Be active before they do something bad"


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## ashok321

> "The pressure is huge from the U.S. end," says a Pakistani official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "But the pressure in Pakistan, from the army and the public, is huge also."





> Zardari's government, heavily dependent on U.S. aid, is keen to see Davis released. "*We need them more than they need us*," says the Pakistani official.





> "There's no choke on aid yet," says a senior Pakistani official. But if the standoff continues, and especially if Davis is convicted, it could be reduced to a trickle. And that could have a potentially catastrophic impact on an economy threatened by hyperinflation and the devaluation of its currency in the coming months.




Read more: Why the Fate of a U.S. Diplomat Could Bring Down Pakistan's Government - TIME

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## twoplustwoisfour

In case you guys missed it, this is not 'Bharti Saffron Media Propaganda'. The news has been reported by ABC news. Here's the link:

Ray Davis Lahore Shooting in Pakistan - ABC News


----------



## VCheng

ashok321 said:


> Read more: Why the Fate of a U.S. Diplomat Could Bring Down Pakistan's Government - TIME


 
The ending paragraph of the article is particularly interesting:



> As domestically rewarding as it may be, brinkmanship over Davis imperils the long-term fortunes of Pakistan's government. *"There's no choke on aid yet," says a senior Pakistani official. But if the standoff continues, and especially if Davis is convicted, it could be reduced to a trickle. And that could have a potentially catastrophic impact on an economy threatened by hyperinflation and the devaluation of its currency in the coming months*. But a brittle government under strong pressure from its electorate and military may struggle to survive if it frees Raymond Davis.



And that is exactly what I have been saying all along.


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## Gazzi

Why, do you think our investigation team is incompetent.........It will only give the FBI inside information to the prosecution case. Disastrous move...

Anyways, even if he does have doplomatic immunity, there is a clause that this immunity does not matter when the individual is involved in a grave incident.......two murders is grave enough...........

Champions of democracy need to loosen their belt and wait for a court decision.............


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## Durrak

LAHORE: Pakistani police on Friday rejected the self-defence claim made by a US official who shot dead two men last month, saying it was a clear case of murder.

&#8220;The police investigation and forensic report show it was not self-defence,&#8221; Lahore city police chief Aslam Tareen told a news conference.

&#8220;His plea has been rejected by police investigators,&#8221; he said. &#8220;He gave no chance to them to survive. That is why we consider it was not self-defence. We have proof it was not self-defence. It was clear murder.&#8221;

The police commander in Lahore, where US official Raymond Davis was arrested on January 27 after the shooting incident that has sparked angry protests in Pakistan, confirmed that he has an American diplomatic passport.

A Pakistani court on Friday extended the American&#8217;s remand by another 14 days and Tareen said one or two more reports were pending, before inquiries would be wrapped up and a report presented to court.

&#8220;It was cold-blooded murder. Eye witnesses have told police that he directly shot at them and he kept shooting even when one was running away. It was an intentional murder,&#8221; Tareen reiterated.

He said no finger prints had been found on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men and that tests showed the bullets remained in the magazine of their gun, and not the chamber.

&#8220;It has been proved that Raymond Davis committed murder,&#8221; he said.

A police official previously told AFP that two pistols, magazine belts and four mobile phones, at least two of which they believe could have been stolen, were found on the bodies of the two dead Pakistanis.

The officer described one of them as a street robber &#8220;wanted&#8221; in connection with three or four incidents and the other as his accomplice.

Tareen said Friday that police had written &#8220;five times&#8221; to the US consulate in Lahore, requesting access to a consulate vehicle that ran over and killed a third Pakistani man in an attempt to reach Davis.


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## ashok321

Between the relation of US and Pakistan I remember the appropriate adage:

_A fish and bird may fall in love but the two cannot build a home together_


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## RabzonKhan

Markus said:


> Thats not possible. No one will ever reveal their true intentions.
> 
> *Actually, ISI was doing the right job of following Davis.*
> 
> Things went wrong bcoz of actions of Davis.


Could you please explain how did you concluded that the deceased were working for ISI?


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## ashok321

Rabzon said:


> Could you please explain how did you concluded that the deceased were working for ISI?




*Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official*


Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## HongWu

jamal18 said:


> Pictures of army bunkers in the _east?_
> 
> The US is totally in collusion with an Indian invasion?


In my view, Raymond Davis incident can be a real turning point in US relations with Pakistan / India. There are voices in US strategic community for dumping Pakistan (treating it as a total terrorist state), dismantling Pakistan Army and occupying it with India's help. But there are also strong voices supporting US decades long alliance with Pakistan.

Just as ominously, the US is really angry with Pakistan for siding with China.

However, I don't think the day has come yet for US to overtly change sides. Obama was given this option many times during his term so far. The main reason is that turning against Pakistan suddenly would totally destabilize South Asia and lead to a messy war with India and China involved. The US doesn't want to deal with that at the same time as Afghanistan.

The next president after Obama, however, could have a different opinion. Pakistan should be prepared just in case.

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## sohailbarki

Items recovered by police and security agencies from Davis' vehicle. Quantity of items mentioned in brackets alongside item names:

1. 9 mm pistol (1)
2. 9 mm pistol magazine (5)
3. Ammunition, 9 mm pistol (75)
4. Tracker alongwith charger (1) [Remarks: GPS map 60 CSX]
5. Purse (1)
6. Wireless set (1)
7. Wireless set battery (1)
8. Cutter (2)
9. Mobile alongwith 1x battery (2) [Remarks: Nokia 6300, 1100]
10. Head torch (1)
11. Digital camera (1)
12. Small telescope (1)
13. Small torch (1)
14. Bandage (5)
15. Quik cloth (1)
16. Hyfin chest seal (1) [Remarks: Mask]
17. Integrity Medical (1)
18. Health care Stike (1)
19. Simple light torch (1)
20. Priority 1 Immediate (1)
21. Cyalum (3)
22. Rescue products (2)
23. Needle decompression (1)
24. Rusch Sterile (1)
25. Notice card (1)
26. Duracell (8)
27. Key Honda Civic (1) [Remarks: LED 10-680]
28. Diary (1)
29. Packet Tobacco (1)
30. Handbag (1)
31. Keychain with key (1) [Remarks: Alongwith 2x V-Card-Contact Card]
32. Contact cards (18)
33. Memory card (1)
34. Pakistani currency (Total: Rs. 5,605/-) [Remarks: Rs. 1000*5, 100*4, 50*3, 20*2, 10*1, 5*1]
35. American Dollars (Total: $ 126) [Remarks: $ 100*1, 20*1, 5*1, 1*1]
36. ATM Bank Cards (5)
37. Copy of PIA ticket (1)
38. Receipt money exchange (1)
39. Receipt Al-Falah bank (1)
40. Chit Embassy (1)
41. Black Cheque (2) [Remarks: USAA Federal Saving Bank]
42. Passport (1)


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## JonAsad

ashok321 said:


> *Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official*
> 
> 
> Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


 
This news is 6 days old- already refuted by the officials-


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## HongWu

In my view, Raymond Davis incident can be a real turning point in US relations with Pakistan / India. There are voices in US strategic community for dumping Pakistan (treating it as a total terrorist state), dismantling Pakistan Army and occupying it with India's help. But there are also strong voices supporting US decades long alliance with Pakistan.

Just as ominously, the US is really angry with Pakistan for siding with China.

However, I don't think the day has come yet for US to overtly change sides. Obama was given this option many times during his term so far. The main reason is that turning against Pakistan suddenly would totally destabilize South Asia and lead to a messy war with India and China involved. The US doesn't want to deal with that at the same time as Afghanistan.

The next president after Obama, however, could have a different opinion. Pakistan should be prepared just in case.

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

sohailbarki said:


> Items recovered by police and security agencies from Davis' vehicle. Quantity of items mentioned in brackets alongside item names:
> 
> *you missed the larger magazines in 4th pic, most likely M4 mags?*


----------



## [Pakistani]-evilX

HongWu said:


> In my view, Raymond Davis incident can be a real turning point in US relations with Pakistan / India. There are voices in US strategic community for dumping Pakistan (treating it as a total terrorist state), dismantling Pakistan Army and occupying it with India's help. But there are also strong voices supporting US decades long alliance with Pakistan.
> 
> Just as ominously, the US is really angry with Pakistan for siding with China.
> 
> However, I don't think the day has come yet for US to overtly change sides. Obama was given this option many times during his term so far. The main reason is that turning against Pakistan suddenly would totally destabilize South Asia and lead to a messy war with India and China involved. The US doesn't want to deal with that at the same time as Afghanistan.
> 
> The next president after Obama, however, could have a different opinion. Pakistan should be prepared just in case.




obama is not stupid to waste bullets and let its solider die in another war which they can't finish when they have a puppet government already running in the country who can hand over the country when they want


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## Guest01

HongWu said:


> In my view, Raymond Davis incident can be a real turning point in US relations with Pakistan / India. There are voices in US strategic community for dumping Pakistan (treating it as a total terrorist state), dismantling Pakistan Army and occupying it with India's help. But there are also strong voices supporting US decades long alliance with Pakistan.
> 
> Just as ominously, the US is really angry with Pakistan for siding with China.
> 
> 
> However, I don't think the day has come yet for US to overtly change sides. Obama was given this option many times during his term so far. The main reason is that turning against Pakistan suddenly would totally destabilize South Asia and lead to a messy war with India and China involved. The US doesn't want to deal with that at the same time as Afghanistan.
> 
> The next president after Obama, however, could have a different opinion. Pakistan should be prepared just in case.


 
And how in the world do you think that this will lead to and India China war? 

Further, what makes you think that even the Pakistan Army will will for the prosecution of Davis? Where will the General's children then go to have fun and frolic? All of us are surely in our own rights "arm chair strategists", but at least let the chair be a legged one my friend!!

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## Guest01

Ak-47A said:


> LAHORE: Pakistani police on Friday rejected the self-defence claim made by a US official who shot dead two men last month, saying it was a clear case of murder.
> 
> &#8220;The police investigation and forensic report show it was not self-defence,&#8221; Lahore city police chief Aslam Tareen told a news conference.
> 
> &#8220;His plea has been rejected by police investigators,&#8221; he said. &#8220;He gave no chance to them to survive. That is why we consider it was not self-defence. We have proof it was not self-defence. It was clear murder.&#8221;
> 
> The police commander in Lahore, where US official Raymond Davis was arrested on January 27 after the shooting incident that has sparked angry protests in Pakistan, confirmed that he has an American diplomatic passport.
> 
> A Pakistani court on Friday extended the American&#8217;s remand by another 14 days and Tareen said one or two more reports were pending, before inquiries would be wrapped up and a report presented to court.
> 
> &#8220;It was cold-blooded murder. Eye witnesses have told police that he directly shot at them and he kept shooting even when one was running away. It was an intentional murder,&#8221; Tareen reiterated.
> 
> He said no finger prints had been found on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men and that tests showed the bullets remained in the magazine of their gun, and not the chamber.
> 
> &#8220;It has been proved that Raymond Davis committed murder,&#8221; he said.
> 
> A police official previously told AFP that two pistols, magazine belts and four mobile phones, at least two of which they believe could have been stolen, were found on the bodies of the two dead Pakistanis.
> 
> The officer described one of them as a street robber &#8220;wanted&#8221; in connection with three or four incidents and the other as his accomplice.
> 
> Tareen said Friday that police had written &#8220;five times&#8221; to the US consulate in Lahore, requesting access to a consulate vehicle that ran over and killed a third Pakistani man in an attempt to reach Davis.


 
Most part of this story could be misinformation and propaganda just to suit the convenience of the objectives of the Pakistan Army. There is no reason to trust Pakistani sources on such a sensitive issue specially after the Pakistani version of the Wikileaks. Akin to the story of the Gadariya and the Bhediyaas.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Guest01 said:


> Most part of this story could be misinformation and propaganda just to suit the convenience of the objectives of the Pakistan Army. There is no reason to trust Pakistani sources on such a sensitive issue specially after the Pakistani version of the Wikileaks. Akin to the story of the Gadariya and the Bhediyaas.


 AFAIK, the police chief officially presented their findings today reflecting the above position

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## Guest01

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> AFAIK, the police chief officially presented their findings today reflecting the above position


 
I agree. But the operative term is "AFAIK". Antecedents otherwise wail a different tale.


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## Cynic Waheed

Right people am kinda lost here. So after these findings, what happens next now? As in we had him on remand already dint we? So why another 14 days now?


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## ashok321

Cynic Waheed said:


> Right people am kinda lost here. So after these findings, what happens next now? As in we had him on remand already dint we? So why another 14 days now?


 
To please Pakistani awam before he boards the flight back home.

That way Pakistanis would be able to say:

Sala itne din jail ki hawa tau khak aya na..


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## Guest01

Cynic Waheed said:


> Right people am kinda lost here. So after these findings, what happens next now? As in we had him on remand already dint we? So why another 14 days now?


 
My honest take, this is purely a time borrowing tactic because neither GoI, nor the Pakistani Army, and surely not the political opposition know how to get out of the jingoistic mess that they got in to. Davis woh haddi hai, joh nigelte nahin banegi or ugulenge to aant saath leke jaayegi.


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## Cynic Waheed

ashok321 said:


> To please Pakistani awam before he boards the flight back home.
> 
> That way Pakistanis would be able to say:
> 
> Sala itne din jail ki hawa tau khak aya na..


 
Wow, how do u know that Einstien? Did zardari text you about this or somthing?

Why are Indians being so sarcy for? They behavin as if we have caught one of their diplomats.


----------



## ashok321

Cynic Waheed said:


> Wow, how do u know that Einstien? Did zardari text you about this or somthing?
> 
> Why are Indians being so sarcy for? They behavin as if we have caught one of their diplomats.


 
Why do you think everybody is same?

Water is water, but when cow drinks it, it makes milk, when a snake drinks it, it becomes a poison.

Treat everybody differently looking at his-her value-credentials baba...


----------



## Guest01

Cynic Waheed said:


> Wow, how do u know that Einstien? Did zardari text you about this or somthing?
> 
> Why are Indians being so sarcy for? They behavin as if we have caught one of their diplomats.


 
I personally being an Indian to whatever extent I am, am not scared. I am just watching and waiting for the courage of the convictions in this situation. My interest is limited to only that. Please do not mind, it is a lot of interest because I really want to see how the Pakistani Generals will finally create the illusion of betterment of Pakistan in this situation.


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## ashok321

*GUEST01:*
Whatchya think? he will be hanged? 
No way!


----------



## RescueRanger

ashok321 said:


> *GUEST01:*
> Whatchya think? he will be hanged?
> No way!


 
Please lets discuss facts and avoid flamers... That goes for the Pakistani's too.

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## Guest01

ashok321 said:


> *GUEST01:*
> Whatchya think? he will be hanged?
> No way!


 
Hanged is far from it. Even if he dies in custody thru a la Salman Taseer (Shaheed) situation, the imprint will last for enough period to make an impact on Pakistan's polity (mainly consists of Army so include that).

I will be inclined to think that he will be expunged after "quick and thorough deliberations by the Pakistan Court". Nawaz will get a signal from the house of Saud. Zardari anyway does not need any prodding. My curiosity is only about the line that the Army will take in the expunging justification.


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## ashok321

RescueRanger said:


> Please lets discuss facts and avoid flamers... That goes for the Pakistani's too.


 

One is the fact, other is the perception, and finally there is something called "ground reality" - and this ground reality, coupled with International power matrix is applicapble in RD`s case. something that would roll the destiny of RD, and not the facts.

Anderson was given free passage from India after killing thousands, and this is also a fact.

Make it or break it!


----------



## MastanKhan

Devil Soul said:


> *Pakistani police: US man committed 'murder'*
> By BABAR DOGAR, Associated Press &#8211; 33 mins ago
> LAHORE, Pakistan &#8211;
> ," Tareen told a news conference.
> The police chief said Davis told interrogators that one of the Pakistani men had pointed his pistol at him.
> However, Tareen said the slain man's pistol had been examined and officers found that all the bullets were in the magazine and no bullet was found in the chamber. Police also determined that the American shot and killed the second Pakistani as he tried to flee, hitting him in the back, Tareen said.[/B][/U]
> *Tareen's remarks left open the possibility that the man with the empty pistol had still pointed the gun at the* American. The police chief said the issue of diplomatic immunity was a government matter but that the police have sent a preliminary charge sheet recommending Davis face a murder trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you Mr Tareen---your statement released some of the pressure---now we know that a gun wass pointed at Davis---who can comment on there being a bullet in the chamber or not---. Just the gun being pointed is a death sentence.
> 
> So----that solevs one problem---one down and one to go---the details will come out regarding the other one soon.
> 
> As I stated earlier----the police should have done due dilligence and made a raid on the two dead peoples houses immediately to see if there were any stolen merchandise laying at home or in use of any house member---if they would have found some stolen items----the case would have lost steam----if not----they would then fall back on circumstantial evidence.
> 
> 
> The interview by pak police was PATHETIC AND OF VERY POOR QUALITY---there was no cohesiveness in questions----there were too many people in the room talking at the same time---and interfering as well---which gave time to Davis to compose himself---. It really is a sorry state of condition---.
> 
> The man should have been interviewed without a mob---.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Guest01 said:


> I agree. But the operative term is "AFAIK". Antecedents otherwise wail a different tale.


 
Lahore shooting, clear case of murder: Police &#8211; The Express Tribune

The link above quotes the CCPO at a press conference, not an anonymous source.

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## ashok321

Guest01 said:


> Hanged is far from it. Even if he dies in custody thru a la Salman Taseer (Shaheed) situation, the imprint will last for enough period to make an impact on Pakistan's polity (mainly consists of Army so include that).
> 
> I will be inclined to think that he will be expunged after "quick and thorough deliberations by the Pakistan Court". Nawaz will get a signal from the house of Saud. Zardari anyway does not need any prodding. My curiosity is only about the line that the Army will take in the expunging justification.


 
Things a la Taseer are not going to happen because they have added a 3 layer security precisely for that.
And as for the PA, I think they have to be on board, if zardari and saudis are too, in order to make it more palatable to Pakistan awam.

Lets see what kind of quid pro quo is there if any!


----------



## RescueRanger

ashok321 said:


> One is the fact, other is the perception, and finally there is something called "ground reality" - and this ground reality, coupled with International power matrix is applicapble in RD`s case. something that would roll the destiny of RD, and not the facts.
> 
> Anderson was given free passage from India after killing thousands, and this is also a fact.
> 
> Make it or break it!


 
Yes we all know that. Don't go around pontificating ground realities to the seniors on this here forum because of the conduct of certain juniors. 

Many thanks for the input...


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## The HBS Guy

AM why don't you make this thread a sticky? It's already the most viewed thread ever in this section.


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## RescueRanger

ashok321 said:


> Things a la Taseer are not going to happen because they have added a 3 layer security precisely for that.
> And as for the PA, I think they have to be on board, if zardari and saudis are too, in order to make it more palatable to Pakistan awam.
> 
> Lets see what kind of quid pro quo is there if any!


 
Re: Pakistani Awam.... Do indulge me of your analysis of this "awam" you speak of so confidently. ?


----------



## ashok321

RescueRanger said:


> Re: Pakistani Awam.... Do indulge me of your analysis of this "awam" you speak of so confidently. ?



This issue has become a contagious one in Pakistan, folks from all walks of life, religious, liberals, rich poor are infected by RD´s killing of 2 people. The Pakistani society as a whole is baying for RD´s blood high on immotions.

Rallies have more or less endorsed this.


----------



## Spring Onion

*Was Raymond Davis Spying on Pakistans Babur Missile?*

*
By: Jim White* Thursday February 10, 2011 6:16 am 

*
As the diplomatic tussle between the United States and Pakistan over US demands for the release of Raymond Davis continues, it is interesting to note that their are varying reports of what Davis had in his possession (photos here) at the time he was arrested after shooting dead two Pakistanis on the streets of Lahore on January 27. Varying reports mention a GPS tracker, a GPS navigation system or a phone tracker, along with a telescope and digital cameras said to have photos of sensitive locations. In a very interesting development, we learn from multiple sources that on Thursday Pakistan successfully test-fired its Hatf VII cruise missile, which it also calls Babur. *


*When the Express Tribune first reported that Davis victims were from the intelligence community (which ISI has since denied and threatened the paper with legal action), the Washington Post followed up by mentioning that Davis was trailed and confronted because he had crossed a red line. Was gathering information on the impending test firing of the Babur missile that red line?*

Pakistan has a history of developing missiles intended to be used with their nuclear weapons. This report (caution, it is old and dates from 1999 and quotes material from the Rumsfeld Commision) is interesting for where it states that M-11 missiles from China were seen:

The Rumsfeld Commission confirmed that complete M-11 missiles were sent to Pakistan from China. Pakistan has reportedly received more than 30 M-11s, which have been observed in boxes at Pakistans Sargodha Air Force Base west of Lahore. Intelligence officials believe Chinese M11s have probably been in Pakistan since November 1992, when China was reconsidering its stance on missile exports after the sale of U.S. F-16 aircraft to Taiwan. Since then, Pakistan has been constructing maintenance facilities, launchers and storage sheds for the missiles, all with Chinese help. China and Pakistan deny these reports.

Pakistan calls the M-11 the Hatf-III. The missile has a range of more than 300 km and a payload of 500 kg. It is a two-stage, solid-propelled missile capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The missile was reportedly test-fired in July 1997.

*Of importance is the fact that the missiles were said to be at an air base west of Lahore. Now for the description of the sensitive photos Davis took:

During the course of investigation, police retrieved photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations from Davis camera, a source told The Express Tribune requesting anonymity. Photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan Armys bunkers on the Eastern border with India were found in the camera, the source added.
*
*So, just a few weeks after Davis may have provoked Pakistan intelligence into a confrontation with him, perhaps over sensitive photos he may have been observed taking in the Lahore area, Pakistan test-fires a missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead:*

Pakistan Thursday successfully tested a nuclear-capable cruise missile with a range of up to 600 km, a military official said.

The Hatf-VII missile, also called Babur after the 16th-century Muslim ruler who founded the Mughal Empire, was fired from an undisclosed location, said Major General Athar Abbas, a military spokesman.

This story goes on to mention that the nuclear-capable Hatf V, with a range of 1300 km was tested in December. And the story points out that most of Pakistans missiles are deployed toward India, which means that the Lahore area, on the Indian border, is a likely site.

It will be very interesting to see if the US comments on the test-firing.

Was Raymond Davis Spying on Pakistan's Babur Missile? &#124; MyFDL


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## Irfan Baloch

RescueRanger said:


> Please lets discuss facts and avoid flamers... That goes for the Pakistani's too.


 
well this is what these Indian guys are doing in the posts above.. they have tottaly dragged the discussion off topic and talking hypothatically now
what does an Army General have to do with a shooting by an American of 2 Pakistani civilian? I really wonder why they cant keep their venom under control they really have to express their hate towards our army on regular bases

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## Spring Onion

ashok321 said:


> This issue has become a contagious one in Pakistan, folks from all walks of life, religious, liberals, rich poor are infected by RD´s killing of 2 people. The Pakistani society as a whole is baying for RD´s blood high on immotions.
> 
> Rallies have more or less endorsed this.


 
Just like the nutjobs from entire world including India were calling for blood of Afia for no fault of her.???

we Pakistanis only want justice and due punishment for the barbaric crime he committed. 

the day likes of him killed few bharatis we will ask for your opinion till then you can play your enemy role here


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## ashok321

RescueRanger said:


> Yes we all know that.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't go around pontificating
> 
> 
> 
> ground realities to the seniors on this here forum because of the conduct of certain juniors.
> 
> Many thanks for the input...
Click to expand...

 
A hen's curses have never killed the eagle....

Welcome anyway partner...


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## Spring Onion

ashok321 said:


> A hen's curses have never killed the eagle....
> 
> Welcome anyway partner...


 
*and You still want to continue cursing us *. well not a good idea.


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## RescueRanger

Irfan Baloch said:


> well this is what these Indian guys are doing in the posts above.. they have tottaly dragged the discussion off topic and talking hypothatically now
> what does an Army General have to do with a shooting by an American of 2 Pakistani civilian? I really wonder why they cant keep their venom under control they really have to express their hate towards our army on regular bases


 
Exactly Irfan bahi. Never mind, it makes for good entertainment. I really like how well they feel they can analyse our "awam" and their "desires", just goes to show how shallow their analysis on the people really is. The people and this "awam" is an enigma, anyone who can come out and say the awam want's x or the awam expects "y", is just shooting in the dark.

I have been born here, brought up here, bred here... Gone abroad for some fresh perspective and even now our awam is a mystery to me, so i find it very amusing when people feel they have judged our "awam" and it's wants or needs.

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## RescueRanger

ashok321 said:


> A hen's curses have never killed the eagle....
> 
> Welcome anyway partner...


 
Hahaha... Please don't flatter yourself, that self inflated ego might burst and the fall will be indeed a painful one. Now swallow that pride and move on...


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## ashok321

> the day likes of him killed few bharatis we will ask for your opinion till then you can play your enemy role here




Bharatis left alone US killer (Bhopal tragdy-Union Carbid-Anderson) happily, measuring the current (then) situation.

Hence I am pragmatic here and elsewhere, nobody`s enemy.

BTW:

He who lives by fighting with an enemy has an interest in the preservation of the enemy's life.


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## RescueRanger

Okay time to bring this back to "you know" Raymond Davis. 

Jana, i would love your assessment on the developments so far. BTW i loved your ED Letter in January's Magazine...

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## ashok321

Jana said:


> *and You still want to continue cursing us *. well not a good idea.


 
You are better off doing the following:



> It's better to light a candle then to curse the darkness.


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## Spring Onion

RescueRanger said:


> Okay time to bring this back to "you know" Raymond Davis.
> 
> Jana, i would love your assessment on the developments so far. BTW i loved your ED Letter in January's Magazine...


 
 assessment indeed wont be liked by CIA but the problem is should i also post the inside gonna be situation as per the elders of two LLL eyes

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## Spring Onion

ashok321 said:


> You are better off doing the following:
> 
> You are better off doing the following:
> *
> &#8220;It's better to light a candle then to curse the darkness.&#8221;*



*
Your darkness is full of patrol if i light the candle you will explode *

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal



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## Areesh

Irfan Baloch said:


> well this is what these Indian guys are doing in the posts above.. they have tottaly dragged the discussion off topic and talking hypothatically now
> what does an Army General have to do with a shooting by an American of 2 Pakistani civilian? I really wonder why they cant keep their venom under control they really have to express their hate towards our army on regular bases



Well that's exactly I was talking about earlier. They won't shut up or behave sensibly until someone grabs them by neck and throw them out of this forum. Now hopefully mods will overcome their laziness and throw some guys out so the thread can gain it's sanity back. Genetics problems don't go that easy, so the best thing is to kick them out of this forum.


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## ashok321

RescueRanger said:


> Hahaha... Please don't flatter yourself, that self inflated ego might burst and the fall will be indeed a painful one. Now swallow that pride and move on...


 
I never was one, never am, never will be...
Keep on keeping though......
Truth fears no questions.


----------



## Guest01

Irfan Baloch said:


> well this is what these Indian guys are doing in the posts above.. they have tottaly dragged the discussion off topic and talking hypothatically now
> what does an Army General have to do with a shooting by an American of 2 Pakistani civilian? I really wonder why they cant keep their venom under control they really have to express their hate towards our army on regular bases


 
Irfan Bhai, let me put it differently. What has Zardari or even in the short term Nawaz to gain by this predicament where the situation has come to a head? Let us not selectively trust some information and disqualify other from the same source at the same time. It was a "lovely game of cat and mouse" as the generals call it that happened that day in the RD case. The precursor had been not just the revelation of the CIA station head's name but before that the acceptance of the suit by the US court against ISI Chief in the 26/11 case. Rajaon ki jung mein pyade mar gaye. And much more can go wrong if the stupid obstinacy continues. You also know who will suffer in a situation when the relations between US and Pakistan will sour. All these jingoistic statements are as far from the realization of the impending difficulties for the common man as men are from women.

Re your comment about the hatred towards the Pakistani Generals, in my individual case, yes, I totally believe that the Pakistani Army leadership has been repeatedly and consistently been the sole reason of the sad situation of the affairs not only in Pakistan but also a worrisome situation in this whole region. I will not just leave it at that. If you would like, then Irfan Bhai, I will surely present the facts and the logic behind my thinking so. However, in the interest of the focu of the discourse on this thread, I yield to you.


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## Imran Khan

tareymareyikmarzi said:


>


 
good jani he is better then many if he decide to do it for RD case


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## ashok321

Jana said:


> *
> Your darkness is full of patrol if i light the candle you will explode *


 
Same old curse from you - back to square one ¿¿¿

What a habitual offender you are!


----------



## RescueRanger

I find the Statement from our Ex FM very interesting. As we all know, not everything is hugs and kisses in Awan E Sadar at the moment. In the corridors of power in Islamabad, things are ever fluid, but this government it is a bit iffy... 

A little something i heard often when studying at Fazel-E-Haq: 
&#1705;&#1575;&#1606;&#1683;&#1744; &#1576;&#1607; &#1662;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578;&#1548; &#1575;&#1608; &#1583;&#1690;&#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1607; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578; &#1606;&#1607; &#1588;&#1610;

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MastanKhan said:


> *Tareen's remarks left open the possibility that the man with the empty pistol had still pointed the gun at the*_ American. The police chief said the issue of diplomatic immunity was a government matter but that the police have sent a preliminary charge sheet recommending Davis face a murder trial._
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you Mr Tareen---your statement released some of the pressure---now we know that a gun wass pointed at Davis---who can comment on there being a bullet in the chamber or not---. Just the gun being pointed is a death sentence.


That statement does not suggest that the gun was pointed at Davis, just that the possibility cannot be ruled out. The only way to establish it now would likely be through eyewitnesses.


> As I stated earlier----the police should have done due dilligence and made a raid on the two dead peoples houses immediately to see if there were any stolen merchandise laying at home or in use of any house member---if they would have found some stolen items----the case would have lost steam----if not----they would then fall back on circumstantial evidence.


Whether or not the two were criminals has little to do with this case from a legal perspective. Davis could not have possibly known they were criminals, so the case essentially boils down to the actions of the two men and Davis in that confrontation that led to the death of the two men.

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## RescueRanger

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That statement does not suggest that the gun was pointed at Davis, just that the possibility cannot be ruled out. The only way to establish it now would likely be through eyewitnesses.
> 
> Whether or not the two were criminals has little to do with this case from a legal perspective. Davis could not have possibly known they were criminals, so the case essentially boils down to the actions of the two men and Davis in that confrontation that led to the death of the two men.


 
Indeed i have to agree with your assessment here sir, the background of the two deceased in this case is immaterial. However there are cases in Criminal Law, Specifically the consideration of Mens Rea: R_v_Woollin and R_v_Nedrick.


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## Patriot

I totally agree with Agnostic Muslim but honestly some Pakistanis are going over the top like saying America can't do - We should teach America a lesson.Guys please get a grip.Not sure what you guys are smoking over there.International Diplomacy is not run by emotions - The rule is Might is Right - Jis ke lathi us ke bhens.

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

MastanKhan said:


> Devil Soul said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistani police: US man committed 'murder'*
> By BABAR DOGAR, Associated Press &#8211; 33 mins ago
> LAHORE, Pakistan &#8211;
> ," Tareen told a news conference.
> The police chief said Davis told interrogators that one of the Pakistani men had pointed his pistol at him.
> However, Tareen said the slain man's pistol had been examined and officers found that all the bullets were in the magazine and no bullet was found in the chamber. Police also determined that the American shot and killed the second Pakistani as he tried to flee, hitting him in the back, Tareen said.[/B][/U]
> *Tareen's remarks left open the possibility that the man with the empty pistol had still pointed the gun at the* American. The police chief said the issue of diplomatic immunity was a government matter but that the police have sent a preliminary charge sheet recommending Davis face a murder trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you Mr Tareen---your statement released some of the pressure---now we know that a gun wass pointed at Davis---who can comment on there being a bullet in the chamber or not---. Just the gun being pointed is a death sentence.
> 
> So----that solevs one problem---one down and one to go---the details will come out regarding the other one soon.
> 
> As I stated earlier----the police should have done due dilligence and made a raid on the two dead peoples houses immediately to see if there were any stolen merchandise laying at home or in use of any house member---if they would have found some stolen items----the case would have lost steam----if not----they would then fall back on circumstantial evidence.
> 
> 
> The interview by pak police was PATHETIC AND OF VERY POOR QUALITY---there was no cohesiveness in questions----there were too many people in the room talking at the same time---and interfering as well---which gave time to Davis to compose himself---. It really is a sorry state of condition---.
> 
> The man should have been interviewed without a mob---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are you nuts? what an idiot on earth would point a gun which doesn't even have a bullet in the chamber? especially when they have intentions of robbing someone in the broad daylight in the busy market....evem a normal citizen keeps his gun loaded and chambered with spare mags let alone the robbers,
> 
> one thing am still confused or might have missed but does RD has Diplomatic immunity or not? i mean whats the reply from FO?
Click to expand...


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## ashok321

> one thing am still confused or might have missed but does RD has Diplomatic immunity or not? i mean whats the reply from FO?



Thats the crux of the matter, cream of the coffee cup, but GOP deliberatly lingers on this issue as they have not made up their mind how to solve this issue with face saving exit.....(hint, Pak awam danda???)

If they declare RD`s status as diplomatic, then he has no buisness to be in Pakistan by default and he flies out of Pak with his collar up.

And this is what GOP does not want to happen in hurry, possibly they are trying to make a deal with Yanks through back channels.......

GOP is walking a tight rope - balancing act...

But a advice to them on thier slow motion:

_A grasshopper that sleeps about will be soon awake in a lizard's mouth_

Amen!


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

I suppose one possible positive outcome of this episode could be a more cautious approach on the part of US embassy/consulate employees in Pakistan.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patriot said:


> I totally agree with Agnostic Muslim but honestly some Pakistanis are going over the top like saying America can't do - We should teach America a lesson.Guys please get a grip.Not sure what you guys are smoking over there.International Diplomacy is not run by emotions - The rule is Might is Right - Jis ke lathi us ke bhens.


Continued US aid could also possibily be contributing to the lack of interest in economic and political reforms.

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## arun

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I suppose one possible positive outcome of this episode could be a more cautious approach on the part of US embassy/consulate employees in Pakistan.


 
True, this will be one good effect of this whole unsavoury drama.

One thing that strikes me is that while people are calling for the blood of Raymond Davis, why are the calls for action against the ones who killed the innocent bystander so muted? I mean, in the Davis case, there is a possibility that they were actually criminals and/or they threatened him. However, in the "accident" (more like manslaughter) case, the victim was clearly innocent. These "diplomats" just went all James Bond style, on the WRONG side of the road, and killed him (NOTE - AN AMERICAN LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHERS, ESPECIALLY IF THE OTHER IS NOT A FIRANGI). In my view, that is a far clearer case of criminal activity.

There have been cases in the past where proper diplomats involved in such happenings have been tried in the host country (after lifting of immunity) or in their home country, and then jailed. It would be a travesty of justice if ALL of these guys go scot free. Diplomats have been punished in the past for less serious cases, and they were proper diplomats.

Of course, as an Indian, it would also please me in a way if the relations between the US and Pakistan become frozen. But I am quite miffed with the arrogance of Americans in the David Headley and Anderson (Bhopal Gas) cases and it would probably please me more if Pakistan actually stood up to the Americans in this case. From past experience, however, this is not likely to happen.


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## Cynic Waheed

Jana, given u r a journalist, do u have any inside info on what potential stand FO is likely to take? I have read in many places that FO is not going to manipulate the real status RD. Is that a suggestion that FO is convinced that he isnt a diplomat. Thanks.


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## ashok321

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I suppose one possible positive outcome of this episode could be a more cautious approach on the part of US embassy/consulate employees in Pakistan.




With RD`s cavalier attitude, it does not seem that way though, _au contrario_ it seems like US is on a clandestine mission.

RD`s was a brazen act!

Something is cooking up!

We shall see....


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Dedicated to All who cant help being uncle sam's kok suckers...TGIF!!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcauCclfytI


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The replacement of Qureshi as foreign minister may in fact be part of an attempt to get more pliable officials to make a determination on Davis's immunity favorable to the US. 

Qureshis removal (if confirmed) has made me lean towards the possibility of the GOP capitulating to American pressure and eventually releasing Davis.

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## Cynic Waheed

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The replacement of Qureshi as foreign minister may in fact be part of an attempt to get more pliable officials to make a determination on Davis's immunity favorable to the US.
> 
> Qureshis removal (if confirmed) has made me lean towards the possibility of the GOP capitulating to American pressure and eventually releasing Davis.



If this is what the gov is planning to do then why not say it the first day. If they had to give in to the pressures then why all the drama? It will be a sad, really sad day if FO has to take up this position eventually. Wouldnt it make pakistan more of a laughing stock? All talk, no walk! Pathetic.

The million dollar question here would be if this is what gov is planing to do, would it survive the backlash from common Pakistani's who have had enough of Americans!


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## Cynic Waheed

Self del------


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## pakdefender

The Raymond Davis case is bringing to light many new things which must be analyzed.

First thing that one can see that the United State's evil designs against Pakistan can be effectively countered by strengthen the rule of law all across Pakistan.

Take the case of Raymond Davis. He is gun totting murder perhaps a spy too, certainly not an 'ally' of Pakistan.

In Lahore, the Police is functional (there are flaws but its still functional), the Judiciary is functional, and the State apparatus are all in one way or the other working.

Since this guy clearly broke the law, we have been able to impound him and have taken him to task (till now) for his crime. This has been possible because we have a semblance of law an order in Lahore.

In places like FATA where every thing is dysfunctional and people dont go by the rule of the law there it is not easy for Pakistan to counter the illegal activities of the Americans since they use the lawlessness of those areas against us. 

Thats why to some extent the people of FATA are in many way responsible for the compromised potion we are in viz a viz the United States.

The Raymond Davis story has made it abundantly clear that to make to beat the US in its own game we need to establish and uphold the rule of law across all Pakistan so that lawlessness cannot be used against us.

The United States has very little wiggle room in this case and Raymond Davis is pretty much check mated. The recovery of photographs of bunkers of Pakistan Army raises very serious concerns about the intention of the US diplomatic missions in the country.

And the speculation that these operatives are involved in financing and indirectly supporting terrorist activities in the country might be more than just speculations. Although the American involvement does not absolve the local sh!t bags, who are blowing up the country, of their wrong doings.

History gives us great lessons, the founder of Pakistan Qiad-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was great man; he was also a very 'correct' man.

By correct one means that he always went by the established rules in order to achieve the goal of independence. By his approach he was able to get a separate homeland and the Brits went home to lick their wounds.

To throw out the yanks from out lands we have to follow a similar path.

And all these threats about US cutting off aid or kicking out Hussain Haqqani ( who by the way in diplomatic circles of Pakistan is known at the 'US Ambassador to the US .. haha ) is not going to hurt Pakistan its going to hurt the US more.

Dear Pakistanis, we can do this, harr firaun kay liya aik musa bhi hota ha and we can stand up to the bully and tell him to back off ( rather Fu<k OFF! ) 

Regarding AID here is little chart o under stand how the AID(s) that the Americans give to developing countries ultimately benefits them and not us

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## VCheng

^^^ But is there not any benefit to the aid receiving country from those large projects that they themselves would not be able to fund otherwise?

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## pakdefender

In the long run, no these projects/sales don&#8217;t help Pakistan, since we don&#8217;t develop the critical know how and keep going back to foreign corporations who keep fleecing us more and more. We might be going a little of topic here but I've seen the proceeding of some world bank funded projects and other than some corrupt Pakistani officials benefiting from the kick backs no one really benefits , not in the least our down trodden nations


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## VCheng

pakdefender said:


> In the long run, no these projects/sales don&#8217;t help Pakistan, since we don&#8217;t develop the critical know how and keep going back to foreign corporations who keep fleecing us more and more. We might be going a little of topic here but I've seen the proceeding of some world bank funded projects and other than some corrupt Pakistani officials benefiting from the kick backs no one really benefits , not in the least our down trodden nations


 
You make a fair point, but I agree with you that such a discussion probably is better suited for another thread, not this one.


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## Pak_Sher

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Why are we denying the fact that the two men murdered were also intelligence agents? There is much more to this story than what is being played in the open.


 
Why are we denying the fact? We is who Indians? There is no evidence to support your statement.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

if they were intelligence agents, they wouldnt have been so close in proximity to the vehicle

they'd be several car lengths BEHIND the car -- not in front of it. They'd probably be a lot more inconspicuous too. 


only the arm chair conspiracy theorist wallas are making such empty claims without proof


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## pakdefender

*US demands &#8216;full immunity&#8217; Davis&#8217;s self-defence claim rejected*

LAHORE: Announcing the findings of their investigation into the Raymond Davis case, Lahore police categorically rejected on Friday the American&#8217;s claim that he had killed two motorcyclists at Mozang on Jan 27 in &#8216;self-defence&#8217;.

However, the US Consulate&#8217;s Principal Officer Carmela Conroy called for immediate release of the man, insisting that he was entitled to full immunity from criminal prosecution by Pakistan under the Vienna Convention.

The demand came after a judicial magistrate sent Davis to jail on 14-day judicial remand, as requested by police and prosecution officials.
&#8220;*He has committed a murder as he shot at the fleeing boys*,&#8221; Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen said at a press conference.

Mr Tareen did not answer questions about the purpose of Davis&#8217;s visit to Mozang. He also declined to say anything about the slain motorcyclists&#8217; activities.

&#8220;I cannot comment on the diplomatic status of Raymond and the job assigned to him in Pakistan by the American government.&#8221;

He also refused to say why did Davis shoot at the motorcyclists when the latter had not aimed guns at him.

Mr Tareen said Davis had told police during interrogation that he was a technical adviser at the American consulate and this was his 10th visit to Pakistan.

The police chief said: &#8220;Forensic reports say no fingerprints were found on the triggers of the (motorcyclists&#8217 pistols and the bullets remained in the magazine of their gun, and not in the chamber.&#8221; Davis gave no chance to the boys, he said.

*&#8220;We have proof in the form of eyewitness accounts and forensic reports that it was not a case of self-defence. Rather it was a clear murder,&#8221; he said.*

Mr Tareen said the investigation team had found a GPS tracker, mobile phones, wireless sets, a survival kit and photographs in Davis&#8217;s car.

&#8220;The investigation revealed that the motorcyclists did not point guns at Davis as the weapons recovered from them were not loaded.&#8221;

*Witnesses told police that Davis had directly shot at them and kept shooting 
even when one of them was running for his life.* 

*Mr Tareen termed it a cold-blooded act and accused Davis of intentionally killing the two men in a public place.* 

He said police had completed their investigation and submitted a provisional charge-sheet, requesting the court to take action against Davis under Article 302 of the Pakistan Penal Code.

He said the suspects whose car had crushed to death another motorcyclist,Ibadur Rehman, had not been handed over to police.

&#8220;The Punjab government has written to the federal government about the Ibadur Rehman case and has also sent reminders,&#8221; he said.

Addressing a press conference later, the US consulate&#8217;s principal officer claimed that as a member of the administrative and technical staff in her
country&#8217;s embassy in Islamabad, Davis was entitled to full immunity from criminal prosecution by Pakistan under the Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations of 1961.

All countries, including my country and your country, freely agreed to abide by these rules. Under the rules he should be freed immediately,&#8221; Ms Conroy said.She read out an official statement which said: &#8220;We understand that eyewitnesses said that Davis had acted in self-defence when confronted with two armed men on a motorcycle.


&#8220;We also understand that these men were found with stolen property. We regret that authorities did not consider these eyewitness accounts and physical evidence when they stated that this was not a case of self-defence.&#8221;

She said the *United States respected the law and Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty* [ really ? ], and expected all representatives of its government to respect the laws of the host nation.

&#8220;*We respect the people of Pakistan * [ nope you dont , you are liers I've seen how Pakistanis entering the United States are treated first hand ] and enjoy working and living in this country. Americans and Pakistan can accomplish so much together.&#8221;

She said the *US and Pakistan both needed to resolve the case immediately * [ yes the case needs to be resolved quickly , justice must be done, killer must be sent to jail or to the gallows and the US embassy and consulates must cease all anti-state activities and most of all stop these 'demands' of the killer's release ] and continue their work, including cooperation in education and health,
their common fight against extremist violence and building bridges between the people of the twp countries.

US demands

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## jamal18

HongWu said:


> In my view, Raymond Davis incident can be a real turning point in US relations with Pakistan / India. There are voices in US strategic community for dumping Pakistan (treating it as a total terrorist state), dismantling Pakistan Army and occupying it with India's help. But there are also strong voices supporting US decades long alliance with Pakistan.
> 
> Just as ominously, the US is really angry with Pakistan for siding with China.
> 
> However, I don't think the day has come yet for US to overtly change sides. Obama was given this option many times during his term so far. The main reason is that turning against Pakistan suddenly would totally destabilize South Asia and lead to a messy war with India and China involved. The US doesn't want to deal with that at the same time as Afghanistan.
> 
> The next president after Obama, however, could have a different opinion. Pakistan should be prepared just in case.



In the 50's India had a non-aligned foreign policy and a socialist economy, an alliance with the US was out of the question. Pakistan, the smaller party, was desperate for an alliance. The US became an ally of Pakistan because an alliance with India was not an option. 

There were many in the US who thought of that as a strategic mistake.

Now India is a member of the western club, It is the obvious choice as an ally.Due to its size, economy and the China factor this is a permanent alliance.

The alliance with Pakistan is temporary, solely due to the Afghan war, it will end when the Afghan war ends. The two alliances are mutually exclusive; you can't be allied to both countries.

Despite the US showing the best disposition to Pakistan currently, it still has not accepted Pakistan's nuclear status. When the war is over, this issue and the China factor, will break the alliance.

The US will become an active adversary.

This to me is obvious.

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## RabzonKhan

ashok321 said:


> *Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official*
> 
> 
> Raymond Davis case: Men killed in Lahore were intelligence operatives, says official &#8211; The Express Tribune


Im sorry, but that report doesnt look credible to me at all.


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## gubbi

santro said:


> Balahisar makes sense.. its a historical monument..
> But bunkers on the eastern border??
> Maybe he just was curious.. tourist maybe..


 
About the bunkers, why would India require info from an American, when India already gets detailed maps, positions of all the bunkers by "many" means. Has it been established that the two men killed were really ISI men?
Exactly, what kind of military installations" pics did he have in his camera.


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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> The real pressure on Pakistan will not be diplomatic, but economic, in a sustained and damaging manner, with other agencies being the face, not the USA. That will be the real test of Pakistani resolve.


 
I fear the real pressure will be increased covert support for TTP and BLA.
The whole rationale behind supporting TTP is to galvanize Pakistani public opinion against terrorism.

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## Roybot

You need to galvanize people opinion to oppose *terrorism*?


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## ares

Rabzon said:


> I&#8217;m sorry, but that report doesn&#8217;t look credible to me at all.


 
What do you think, what possible reason can be there for a foreigner to kill two complete strangers in a foreign land?


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## W.11

gubbi said:


> About the bunkers, why would India require info from an American, when India already gets detailed maps, positions of all the bunkers by "many" means. Has it been established that the two men killed were really ISI men?
> Exactly, what kind of military installations" pics did he have in his camera.


 
woow, so u admit, raw is operating and thriving in pakistan, and on other hand u mock pkistani beliefs hahahahahaha

your 'means' are also arming balochs in afghanistan and all those 'means' in bharti consulates in afghanistan border, stop terrorising pakistan, u saffron terrorist scums...

stop bharting around

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## brahmastra

As being a diplomate in pakistan Davis got protection of Geneva Convention.


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## fallstuff

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if they were intelligence agents, they wouldnt have been so close in proximity to the vehicle
> 
> they'd be several car lengths BEHIND the car -- not in front of it. They'd probably be a lot more inconspicuous too.
> 
> 
> only the arm chair conspiracy theorist wallas are making such empty claims without proof


 
They don't have to be ISI agents. They could be informers asked to keep an eye on Davis.

Excerpts from Time magazine for all it is worth, 



> Equally misleading, say Pakistani officials, is the claim in Pakistani media that Davis' victims had been "ordinary men", or even as "robbers," as the State Department has suggested. "They were from the ISI," says a government official, referring to Pakistan's military intelligence agency. It isn't clear, the official says, whether they were full paid-up agents or local informants. The two men had been tasked with tailing Davis, Pakistani officials say. "*He had been traveling to Waziristan and meeting with people that the army doesn't approve of," says a Pakistani official, implying that Davis had met with Pakistani militants. While U.S. contractors and intelligence agents operate in Pakistan with the military's approval and often in cooperation, it insists they operate within strictly circumscribed parameters. Davis, according to some Pakistani accounts, had crossed a red line, and was being shadowed in a crude effort at intimidation*
> 
> Read more: Why the Fate of a U.S. Diplomat Could Bring Down Pakistan's Government - TIME

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## Abu Zolfiqar

well if true, then I (a civilian) would even be extremely suspicious of him

what in God's name is a contractor for US embassy doing in those war-affected areas? 

sight-seeing? bird-watching...in this dubbed "most dangerous place to be on earth"


he's lucky to even be breathing

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## Abu Zolfiqar

despite my known contempt for ToI, i did manage to stumble across this excerpt:



> Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and *CIA chief Leon Panetta *are among those who are said to have spoken to the Pakistani leadership to convey Washington's displeasure, which is expected to manifest itself with the cancellation of a trilateral Am- meeting scheduled for later this month in Washington if the matter is not resolved by then.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: Pak defies US and jails Davis - The Times of India Pak defies US and jails Davis - The Times of India



i wonder why the US Intelligence Chief is speaking out over this matter?

to me, it's some telling signs. Again, speculation of course.

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## Developereo

roy_gourav said:


> You need to galvanize people opinion to oppose *terrorism*?


 
Public opinion is always stronger about a local problem affecting their own lives, as opposed to a news story in a foreign land.
People knew about Taliban barbarity in Afghanistan almost as an abstract fact, but it was the video of a girl begin flogged in Swat that changed the mood.


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## VelocuR

Sohni Dharti said:


> I fear the real pressure will be increased covert support for TTP and BLA.
> The whole rationale behind supporting TTP is to galvanize Pakistani public opinion against terrorism.


 
Yes, we have been hearing this long times, India supported TTP/BLA or other groups we know that. We wouldn't be surprised if US's changing position to use covert support.


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## fallstuff

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well if true, then I (a civilian) would even be extremely suspicious of him
> 
> what in God's name is a contractor for US embassy doing in those war-affected areas?
> 
> sight-seeing? bird-watching...in this dubbed "most dangerous place to be on earth"
> 
> 
> he's lucky to even be breathing


 
This article from Time magazine seems like the real one from all the other stories that are out there in circulation. This article makes sense that why he(Davis) acted the way he did. A diplomat doesn't go around shooting folks cause they looked menacing, no one does that.


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## 53fd

_ Originally Posted by twoplustwoisfour 
Why are we denying the fact that the two men murdered were also intelligence agents? There is much more to this story than what is being played in the open.

Why are we denying the fact? We is who Indians? There is no evidence to support your statement._

My personal opinion/speculation is that the people killed were not robbers, and the evidence (shot at the back) pretty much supports that. Yet, I do not believe Raymond Davis would have shot these men unless he felt some kind of 'danger' from them. So I believe there is a very good chance they were informants (if not ISI spies) of some kind. I know for a fact that the ISI keeps tabs on foreign officials (especially who they deem suspicious, and Davis was clearly doing suspicious stuff) in Pakistan, often by tapping their phones or having people follow them: the ISI is very sneaky that way. This is my personal opinion though, and it is pretty clear that Raymond Davis freaked out too and felt himself being followed, his activities under 'observation'.


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## Developereo

It doesn't matter if the two dead guys were displaying ISI badges on their chest, or were wearing stolen merchandise around their necks.

The only thing that matters is whether Raymond Davis's life was in danger when he shot those two men. Even if someone is a spy or a robber doesn't mean you can go around shooting them in the back.


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## pakdefender

Detained US official 'in telephone contact with terror group' - Telegraph



> Sources close to the investigation said Raymond Davis, 36, had *made a series of telephone calls to South Waziristan, a tribal area along the border with Afghanistan synonymous with militant activity*.
> 
> 
> However, security sources have leaked a series of details suggesting that he may have had a clandestine role.
> 
> *"His phone records clearly show he was in contact with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, for what reason we can only speculate," said a police officer, referring to a terrorist group with close links to the Pakistani Taliban.*



for what reason would this guy be in contact with the militants ?


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## wild_fire1979

End of the day, Raymond will walk free. Pakistani govt right now is a US lapdog, it can growl but it can't bite the hand which feeds them billions of dollars.


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## 53fd

_It doesn't matter if the two dead guys were displaying ISI badges on their chest, or were wearing stolen merchandise around their necks.

The only thing that matters is whether Raymond Davis's life was in danger when he shot those two men. Even if someone is a spy or a robber doesn't mean you can go around shooting them in the back._

I don't believe his life was in danger, but I think his activities being exposed were.


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## Cynic Waheed

Has anyone noticed there hasnt been a single drone strike since RD saga appeared?
I think we shoul keep him here forever if this is all it takes to stop drones 
Bt seriously, could it jst be a coincidence?


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## 53fd

_Has anyone noticed there hasnt been a single drone strike since RD saga appeared?
I think we shoul keep him here forever if this is all it takes to stop drones 
Bt seriously, could it jst be a coincidence?_

The reason for this is because the US fears the wrath of the Pakistani nation, and its rising anti-American sentiments. If the US starts droning the Tribal Areas again, the people of Pakistan might rise up against the puppet Zardari government, and this could result in a Tunisia/Egypt style revolution and the government being overthrown, especially by a more 'Islamic' one that does not cater for the interests of the US. I have a feeling the US might wait for the sentiments of the Pakistani people to cool off, maybe even compromise on the Raymond Davis issue to keep this government in power. However, even this might not be enough, as this incident seems to be a real tipping point, and with the Egypt/Tunisia successful uprisings so close to this event, it might result in something 'big'.


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## RescueRanger

ares said:


> What do you think, what possible reason can be there for a foreigner to kill two complete strangers in a foreign land?


 
They were not ISI, if you all think that ISI agents are so stupid to tail a guy on a motorbike and be stuck on his A$$ like flies on Sh**, not have any survailance detection, not any communication system and only armed with two Chinese manufactured norinco pistols. Than i fear you guys underestimate ISI by a very large margin. 

In other news:


> Both Mr Hussain and the former diplomat share the view that even if it is established that Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity, it may not save him.
> 
> "Pakistan's 1973 constitution does not grant diplomatic immunity in the case of criminal offences in certain circumstances," says Mr Hussain.


BBC News - Lahore shootings fuel US-Pakistan row

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## monitor

* The smoking gun*

To confuse matters further, the US Embassy has been using the term "diplomat" and "member of the administrative and technical staff" (of the Embassy) interchangeably to describe the killer.

Asif Ezdi

The US authorities continue to issue contradictory statements concerning the Raymond Davis case. They seem to have taken Albert Einstein quite literally when he said, "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." Subsequently, the Americans have tried to change the facts of the case in three important respects. 
First, Davis was initially described as a staff member of the US Consulate General in Lahore. Then, without explanation, this was changed and he was said to be a member of the administrative and technical staff of the Embassy. 
Second, on January 27, Crowley, the State Department Spokesman, denied that the killer's name was "Raymond Davis". Then last week, a spokeswoman for the US embassy said Crowley had not denied that the name was "Raymond Davis". 
Third, the US Embassy has revised its account of the circumstances in which Davis killed the two Pakistanis. The US Embassy's press release of January 29 said he was "confronted" by two armed men on motorcycles who he had every reason to believe meant him bodily harm. Then, on February 3, the US Embassy said that the two Pakistanis had been killed following an "attack on the diplomat by armed assailants." Being confronted by armed men, as everyone knows, is not the same as being attacked by them. According to another account of the US Embassy, Davis was not even "confronted" by the two young men. The British newspaper, Daily Telegraph, reported on the basis of information provided by the US Embassy that the two men had pulled alongside Davis on a motorbike at traffic lights. He saw that one of them had a gun. Apparently fearing that he was about to be robbed, he opened fire, killing both. The claim that they had criminal backgrounds has not been proved. Even if it is true, Davis could not have known about it. Even if he had, he did not have the license to shoot them down. 
To confuse matters further, the US Embassy has been using the term "diplomat" and "member of the administrative and technical staff" (of the Embassy) interchangeably to describe the killer. As anyone who has read the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Convention knows, the two are entirely different categories. The term "diplomat" can only be used for a member of the diplomatic staff, which by definition, a member of the administrative and technical staff, is not. 
Yet, it is correct, as the Embassy maintains, that under Article 37 of the Convention, a member of the administrative and technical staff of the Embassy enjoys the same immunity from criminal jurisdiction that a diplomat does. The central issue therefore is whether Davis was a member of the US Embassy's administrative and technical staff. Whether he holds a diplomatic passport from his government or was issued a diplomatic or official visa by Pakistani authorities is immaterial. 
The main argument used by the US in support of its claim to immunity for Davis is that the Embassy notified the Foreign Ministry on January 20, 2010 that he had been assigned to the mission as a member of its administrative and technical staff. The fact that his name had been notified would ordinarily qualify him for being treated as a member of the Embassy's administrative and technical staff. But in this case, there are four reasons why this claim cannot be accepted. 
First, the Foreign Ministry asked the Embassy to provide some further information about Davis before issuing an identity card to him as a member of the Embassy staff. The Embassy did not provide the necessary clarifications. 
Second, Davis' name was not included in the list of Embassy staff given to the Foreign Ministry on January 25, 2011, two days before the shooting, apparently, because at that time he was assigned to the Lahore Consulate General. This list superseded the earlier notification that he was a member of the Embassy staff. He was put on a revised list of Embassy staff submitted a day after the incident only to enable him to claim diplomatic immunity. 
Third, the Embassy's press release issued a day after the shooting described him as a consular employee. This is the most authoritative statement on his status. 
Fourth, and most importantly, the man has a fake identity. Whatever his true name is, it is not Raymond Davis. The notification of this name by the US Embassy does not therefore confer any immunity on the person who carried out the shooting. 
The US Embassy is right about one thing though. It is for the Foreign Ministry to make a determination on the status of the person who goes by the name of Raymond Davis. This determination, as the Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act of 1972 lays down, is to be treated as final and conclusive. 
The Foreign Ministry and the Punjab government must also forcefully take up the case of the third Pakistani who was killed when he was run over by an SUV of the US Consulate General sent to help Davis. US refusal to cooperate in the investigation is a flagrant breach of the Vienna Conventions and our failure to press them harder is simply unforgivable. The federal government and the Punjab government both share the responsibility for this. 
The US is obviously deeply perturbed at the fact that Davis is in Pakistani custody. The equipment and weapons he was carrying leave no doubt that he was engaged in unauthorised undercover activity. The people of Pakistan have long suspected that the hundreds of armed men who roam their streets under the US diplomatic umbrella and others who work behind the walls of US missions are here as part of some sinister plan against the country's security. Now there is a smoking gun to strengthen these suspicions and it has a name - or alias: Raymond Davis. 
These suspicions could have been dispelled if the Americans had not raised hell over his arrest. Instead, Washington has resorted to crude threats. Hillary Clinton telephoned Zardari reportedly to convey to him that the US is losing patience. This is familiar language. Powerful states employ it to threaten those who do not comply with their demands. Last month, a senior US official publicly warned that US patience at Pakistan's effort to block negotiation of a treaty to ban the production of fissile material was running out. (Historically, the most famous use of the term was by Hitler. In a speech in September 1938, he demanded the cession of Sudetenland to Germany. "My patience," he warned, "has run out." Four days later, the Munich Agreement was signed permitting him to annex Sudetenland.) 
It has been suggested by some of our analysts that if we do not release Davis, Hillary Clinton might not smile as broadly as she did at her last meeting with Shah Mahmood. That is possible. But we can live with that. I am sure Shah Mahmood can live with it too. Zardari's visit to Washington could be postponed, though it is unlikely. Even if it is, it will be no tragedy. Whether Zardari will be prepared for the shock is another matter. 
But the so-called "strategic dialogue" or "strategic partnership" between the two countries is not under threat. The US needs this relationship as much as we do. It is not for love of the Pakistani people that the US is providing military and economic assistance to us. The Americans are doing so to serve their own national interests. 
The government will do a great service not only to the nation but also to itself if it does not bow to US demands on Davis. It will give some credibility to our claim of being a sovereign country and do a lot of good to national self-esteem. God knows we need it badly. Countries that succumb to the first signs of international pressure never attain their national goals. Our problem is that our ruling class and the "liberal elite" allied with them are very comfortable in their cocoons and will risk nothing that could even remotely jeopardize their cushy life style.


The writer is a former member of the Pakistan Foreign Service.

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## ares

RescueRanger said:


> They were not ISI, if you all think that ISI agents are so stupid to tail a guy on a motorbike and be stuck on his like flies on , not have any survailance detection, not any communication system and only armed with two Chinese manufactured norinco pistols. Than i fear you guys underestimate ISI by a very large margin.
> 
> In other news:
> 
> BBC News - Lahore shootings fuel US-Pakistan row


 
Who ever they were,either tail or bunch of robbers(who thought a foreigner will present an easy target),
they presented some kind of threat to the US diplomat..they could just street robber who were trying to rob him and he shot them is self defence..but is very unlikely that they were just innocent passerbys minding their own business and RD is a maniac, who just shot them for fun of it.


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## monitor

May be its a coincidence that no drone attack are happening now .but america is not rady to compromise any thing for devis .
America&#8200;threatens to severe relations | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## RescueRanger

ares said:


> Who ever they were,either tail or bunch of robbers(who thought a foreigner will present an easy target),
> they presented some kind of threat to the US diplomat..they could just street robber who were trying to rob him and he shot them is self defence..but is very unlikely that they were just innocent passerbys minding their own business and RD is a maniac, who just shot them for fun of it.


 
Indeed. However what they were or were not is inconsequential at this late juncture in the proceedings, there is a reason there are very stringent security protocols for the movement of officials in Pakistan, this information starts from the Chain of the RSO at the Embassy and cascades down to the Diplomatic Protection Police in every major city. 

The area he was in was OFF LIMITS to US Officials, US Officials MUST have a security escort when travelling, he did not have a MOI special permit to carry or conceal carry, i have posted all this before and really can't be bothered repeating myself. 

The point being, all this is irrelevant now since at the moment the court has quashed the defense's plea of "Self Defense", which means it now relies on case based precedent "Actus Rea" and "Mens Rea" they are two very famous cases for determining the Mens Rea and can be broadly applied to the RD case here in Pakistan:

R v Woollin 
R v Nedrick

That being said, i don't think retribution is the right solution to such a delicate predicament Mr. Davis has gotten himself into. Hanging a man will not help any...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Irfan Baloch said:


> anyone else daring to making a tourist outing to area 51 or camp david will have his/ her remains spread over a square mile.
> I recall beating up of the European" diplomat when he repeatedly made "trourist" visits near Kahota.


 
let's just say --- he regrets his actions in retrospect!

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## Beskar

Let me clear some of the misconceptions about the army 'Installations' near the border which were photographed by Davis in Lahore. 

I've lived most of my life in Lahore and that is where I reside. The route towards the border that Davis chose was from Badian road. It leads to the outskirts of Lahore where our border with India is situated. The 'Bunkers' that were photographed have been there since 1965 and they're empty. They're not active and the only time they're active are during a war. There are different categories of bunkers. The bunkers he photographed were the third line of Defence. If the enemy overruns your border and you cannot defend your primary location, you fall back to these bunkers which are specifically designed to mount belf-fed MGs. 

Here's the kicker. Those bunkers are accessible to the common man as they are of no importance during peace times. You can stand inside them, take a picture standing next to them and even pretend that you're fighting off the invaders with your friends and have a jolly good time. I know, I've done these things. These bunkers can also be seen if you take the 'Jalo Park' route towards Wahga Border. 

I'm in no way saying that Raymond Davis's actions were justified or that his photographs were merely taken as a tourist but whining about it as if he had images of 'Babur Cruise Missile', is a bit too much.

My 0.02$.

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## jahangeer yousaf

whatever the case either they were robbers or isi agents ......... we are not gonna leave ramind lyke this for nothing .......... or atleast courts will not let him go ....................ik or sir peer saday galay pay gaye aay chawal


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## The HBS Guy

jahangeer yousaf said:


> whatever the case either they were robbers or isi agents ......... we are not gonna leave ramind lyke this for nothing .......... or atleast courts will not let him go ....................ik or sir peer saday galay pay gaye aay chawal


 
Twadde passe te 'blood money' vi honda ae. Te Davis o de ke bach jauga par bach zarur jauga.


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## SekrutYakhni

HongWu said:


> In my view, Raymond Davis incident can be a real turning point in US relations with Pakistan / India. There are voices in US strategic community for dumping Pakistan (treating it as a total terrorist state), dismantling Pakistan Army and occupying it with India's help. But there are also strong voices supporting US decades long alliance with Pakistan.
> 
> Just as ominously, the US is really angry with Pakistan for siding with China.
> 
> However, I don't think the day has come yet for US to overtly change sides. Obama was given this option many times during his term so far. The main reason is that turning against Pakistan suddenly would totally destabilize South Asia and lead to a messy war with India and China involved. The US doesn't want to deal with that at the same time as Afghanistan.
> 
> The next president after Obama, however, could have a different opinion. Pakistan should be prepared just in case.



Why do you think there will be a war with India? 
And why do you think that the U.S. will dump Pakistan?


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## TOPGUN

Fry the bastard a spy he is forsure now it is proven time for this sucker to be punished.


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## RabzonKhan

ares said:


> What do you think, what possible reason can be there for a foreigner to kill two complete strangers in a foreign land?



Sorry, I can't speak on this case since I don't have the facts (neither does anyone else) and I don't like to speculate, given the gravity of what has happened.


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## MastanKhan

Sir,

If there is a gun exposed---it doesnot matter---it does not need to be pointed---just the presence and intentional visibility is a death threat-----why---because of the reaction time of the other party---.

The man with the gun holds the fate of the other person in his hands---at his discretion and at his displeasure---.

In pakistan we don't have any resp[ect for police---but here in the U S----the safe distance in front of a cop is approximately 10 feet minimum---when a cop says stop you do that or you may get shot---why---any closer---the balance of power shifts from the cop to the other person---.

Similiarly---once the hand gun became exposed---in any form or way---it becomes a death threatening situation----seems like pakistabnis have not yet grown up to understand the significanc yet---.

It is amazing the police commander Mr Tareen is stating that there was no round in the chamber ( does that mean there was no threat )---I want to ask----do we have idiots throught and through our police dept even at officer level---no---let me call my fortune teller first and ask him---is there any round in the chamber---.

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## jahangeer yousaf

The HBS Guy said:


> Twadde passe te 'blood money' vi honda ae. Te Davis o de ke bach jauga par bach zarur jauga.


 
o tay honda aay par maqtolan day kar walay nhi mand'day paye .... o kaynday payien aain khon da badla khon yan dr afia.........


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

We are just looking at the first casualty of this skirmish---our foreign minister Mr Qureishi is a gone----just like that---he didnot want to compromise. You know that the U S is not in an easy position either----today EGYPT broke the shackles.

U S can push pakistanh so much----then it lands into an area of unpredictability---there are other issues that you have to look as well---I never thought I would be saying this after Bush----but Obam's presidency never took off---he judgement in recovering the economy failed miserably---he is a poorly rated a president as any other poorly rated leader in the U S of A----. The failures of his internal policies have a lots of pressure on him and that would make him do things in the outside world to get the support of the american public to regain his image.

Now this egypt issue has given us some breathing room----I believe that pak should ask for the release of Aafiya in exchange of Davis ansd other pakistanis at G bay---.


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## Developereo

MastanKhan said:


> If there is a gun exposed---it doesnot matter---it does not need to be pointed---just the presence and intentional visibility is a death threat-----why---because of the reaction time of the other party---.


 
I already covered this point in an earlier post.
Was the victim's gun drawn prior to shooting, or did Davis walk over after the shooting, take out the victim's gun, and then take photos?
He seems to have been quite calm and have remarkable presence of mind after he shot two people in broad daylight in front of a hostile crowd.

As I mentioned before, this is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the robber's hand after you shoot him in your house.


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## RescueRanger

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> If there is a gun exposed---it doesnot matter---it does not need to be pointed---just the presence and intentional visibility is a death threat-----why---because of the reaction time of the other party---.
> 
> The man with the gun holds the fate of the other person in his hands---at his discretion and at his displeasure---.
> 
> In pakistan we don't have any resp[ect for police---but here in the U S----the safe distance in front of a cop is approximately 10 feet minimum---when a cop says stop you do that or you may get shot---why---any closer---the balance of power shifts from the cop to the other person---.
> 
> Similiarly---once the hand gun became exposed---in any form or way---it becomes a death threatening situation----seems like pakistabnis have not yet grown up to understand the significanc yet---.
> 
> It is amazing the police commander Mr Tareen is stating that there was no round in the chamber ( does that mean there was no threat )---I want to ask----do we have idiots throught and through our police dept even at officer level---no---let me call my fortune teller first and ask him---is there any round in the chamber---.



Exactly... It is called the "Force Continuum", it is taught in various services, particularly the police and security field.






One of the instructors on a course here was Ex LAPD, he recalled how he once shot a kid in a dark alleyway because he had something that looked like a gun and failed to comply and started to charge the officer.

Turned out the kid had a swiss roll in his hand and was scared of the police because he was autistic... Needless to say, that whilst the officer followed his training, Internal Affairs and the media, as well as the local hespanic community ripped him a new one. 

*So you see MastanKhan Bahi, idiot's are not confined to Pakistan alone.*

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## RescueRanger

brahmastra said:


> As being a diplomate in pakistan Davis got protection of Geneva Convention.


 
"Pakistan's 1973 constitution does not grant diplomatic immunity in the case of criminal offences in certain circumstances," says Mr Hussain.
BBC News - Lahore shootings fuel US-Pakistan row


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## MastanKhan

bilalhaider said:


> [Yet, I do not believe Raymond Davis would have shot these men unless he felt some kind of 'danger' from them. So I believe there is a very good chance they were informants (if not ISI spies) of some kind. I know for a fact that the ISI keeps tabs on foreign officials (especially who they deem suspicious, and Davis was clearly doing suspicious stuff) in Pakistan, often by tapping their phones or having people follow them: the ISI is very sneaky that way. This is my personal opinion though, and it is pretty clear that Raymond Davis freaked out too and felt himself being followed, his activities under 'observation'.


 
Hi,

Davis was obviously under a great deal of stress---everyone he looked at would seem to be following him---he carried the guilt of a criminal---he had a gun on him---that made him jumpy---he had pictures in his camera----that made him nervous---ammo and knives and other stuff---all that which he was carrying showed that he had been away from the consulate for a few days---.

Seems like had been on the prowl for a while----and not been back to the base---that is why he still had the pictures on his camera---if he was just coming out of the consulate---the memory card would have been empty----.

Is it a possibility that he was coming to an end of his mission and nearing close---he was very nervous as any other operator would be and just got a hair trigger nerve in his finger---. They came close in the traffic---exchanged glances----he saw the gun---as he was riding high on guilt of spying---he pulled the trigger---thinking that he has been neutralized and was about to be taken out.

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## Imran Khan

friday finished is haqani kicked out. when i was sleeping last night i was thinking ohhhhhhhhhh thank god morning we have no US consulate here.

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## MastanKhan

Sohni Dharti said:


> I already covered this point in an earlier post.
> Was the victim's gun drawn prior to shooting, or did Davis walk over after the shooting, take out the victim's gun, and then take photos?
> He seems to have been quite calm and have remarkable presence of mind after he shot two people in broad daylight in front of a hostile crowd.
> 
> As I mentioned before, this is a well known trick in the US to put a knife in the robber's hand after you shoot him in your house.


 
Hi,

First of all you know that it is not the first time Davis killed someone---with his background---he has many a notches on his gun---secondly----he is operating all by himself---in a hostile land----this guy has ballz and nerves of steel---he is a super operator---so---for him to show and act normal is a part of his training and experties---.

To plant a gun under those circumstances is not easy---and close to impossible that he was carryinbg to spare guns to plant---. If som---the guns may have a part of his DNA or fabric from his clothing on it as well----so that might not be the case.


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## khurasaan1

Alhamdolillah everything is going great in this case....and insha-Allah these evil pplz/powerz and their rings will find no way to escape from their own built trap for otherz....


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## Developereo

MastanKhan said:


> To plant a gun under those circumstances is not easy---and close to impossible that he was carryinbg to spare guns to plant---. If som---the guns may have a part of his DNA or fabric from his clothing on it as well----so that might not be the case.


 
The gun surely belonged to the victims but do we have any witnesses to say the gun was drawn before Davis' shooting?
And, I agree, he is too much of a professional to leave his prints on any part of the victim.


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## khurasaan1

I wish and hope that Haqqani from Allah(sbwt) be kicked out and US consulates shut down here so that there are no chances of terrorism anymore..and insha-Allah it will be done very soon...and we be free of these evil/terrorist powerz internally for good....


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## khurasaan1

so demonstrations are already against Raymond Davis ..in US...ummm good...


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## fatman17

Kanna said:


> *New twist in Davis saga, victims were ISI agents
> *
> While Washington and much of the world continues to be transfixed by the drama over democracy in Egypt, an ugly sideshow involving spooks and spying in Pakistan is consuming the Obama administration, redrawing the security contours with regards to what was once regarded as a stalwart ally.
> 
> The Raymond Davis affair, as the episode has come to be known, has become not just curiouser, but also messier. The alleged private security contractor, who was on the rolls of the US diplomatic mission in Pakistan when he shot dead two Pakistanis in what he said was in self-defense after they attempted to rob him, is still incarcerated despite US demands that he be freed because he enjoys diplomatic immunity.
> 
> But it turns out that even as Islamabad is publicly resisting American pressure, a section of the Pakistani establishment has revealed that the two men who were shot were in fact agents of the ISI.
> 
> Meanwhile, Shumaila Kanwal, the wife of one of alleged robbers/spies died under mysterious circumstances in a Pakistani hospital after consuming poison, but not before she met journalists and issued a revenge call, demanding "blood for blood."
> 
> Pakistani officials told the Express Tribune in Lahore that the Pakistani government's "tough stance" on the whole issue was also a "reaction to the attempts by certain elements in Washington to implicate...the ISI in the November 2008 Mumbai attacks," including the decision by a US court to summon top ISI officials in connections with the attacks.
> 
> The incredible drama has greatly soured ties between US and Pakistan, with the growing feeling in Washington that its once-famed ally is now turning rogue. There is now a demand in some quarters in Washington to turn off the aid spigot vital for Pakistan's survival, even as there is pressure on the government in Islamabad to hold to account the US whose lifeline to its troops in Afghanistan runs through Pakistan.
> 
> New twist in Davis saga, victims were ISI agents - The Times of India



some sources within pakistan also confirm this!


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## SekrutYakhni

If they were ISI agents and the government tries to save the accuse, --

Will see what happens to the government. 

Protests and resignation will be a first step with many to follow.

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## AHMED85

Raymond Davis Case .....


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## 53fd

_Here's the kicker. Those bunkers are accessible to the common man as they are of no importance during peace times. You can stand inside them, take a picture standing next to them and even pretend that you're fighting off the invaders with your friends and have a jolly good time. I know, I've done these things. These bunkers can also be seen if you take the 'Jalo Park' route towards Wahga Border. 

I'm in no way saying that Raymond Davis's actions were justified or that his photographs were merely taken as a tourist but whining about it as if he had images of 'Babur Cruise Missile', is a bit too much.

My 0.02$._

The Babur Cruise Missile theory has been circulated by only one newspaper. The thing no one is talking about is his activities in the Peshawar consulate, and the areas closeby. The interesting thing is, we have heard conflicting reports from the US embassy in Islamabad: first they said he was a part of the technical & administrative staff of the US embassy in Islamabad, then they said he was not part of the US embassy in Islamabad but of the US consulate in Lahore. We also know he served in the Consulate in Peshawar. The way I see it, this guy clearly has been dealing with a "lot of stuff inside Pakistan", a lot of "secret" and highly confidential stuff. He was also fluent in Urdu and Pashto. Now with the reports claiming his links to LeJ and South Waziristan, and how Hillary Clinton & the CIA chief are threatening Pakistan, this is no ordinary guy.

(From here, this is my personal opinion and speculation, the cynic I am) I would not be surprised if he helped orchestrate some of the terrorist attacks in Pakistan in some capacity. And maybe thats what he was trying to do, meeting up with some people in the most crowded part in Lahore when he got caught. Something is highly suspicious, & there is a lot of information that has to be extracted from this guy.


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## RescueRanger

bilalhaider said:


> _Here's the kicker. Those bunkers are accessible to the common man as they are of no importance during peace times. You can stand inside them, take a picture standing next to them and even pretend that you're fighting off the invaders with your friends and have a jolly good time. I know, I've done these things. These bunkers can also be seen if you take the 'Jalo Park' route towards Wahga Border.
> 
> I'm in no way saying that Raymond Davis's actions were justified or that his photographs were merely taken as a tourist but whining about it as if he had images of 'Babur Cruise Missile', is a bit too much.
> 
> My 0.02$._
> 
> The Babur Cruise Missile theory has been circulated by only one newspaper. The thing no one is talking about is his activities in the Peshawar consulate, and the areas closeby. The interesting thing is, we have heard conflicting reports from the US embassy in Islamabad: first they said he was a part of the technical & administrative staff of the US embassy in Islamabad, then they said he was not part of the US embassy in Islamabad but of the US consulate in Lahore. We also know he served in the Consulate in Peshawar. The way I see it, this guy clearly has been dealing with a "lot of stuff inside Pakistan", a lot of "secret" and highly confidential stuff. He was also fluent in Urdu and Pashto. Now with the reports claiming his links to LeJ and South Waziristan, and how Hillary Clinton & the CIA chief are threatening Pakistan, this is no ordinary guy.
> 
> (From here, this is my personal opinion and speculation, the cynic I am) I would not be surprised if he helped orchestrate some of the terrorist attacks in Pakistan in some way or the other. And maybe that is what he was trying to do, meeting up with some people in the most crowded part in Lahore when he got caught. Something is highly suspicious, & I bet there is a lot of information that has to be extracted from this guy.



Speculation is bad... I mean, really bad. 

By the way, anyone who works at the a foreign mission, is no ordinary person. Visa officer's and Legal Attaché's are not here to sip tea and read newspapers...


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## DV RULES

RescueRanger said:


> Speculation is bad... I mean, really bad.
> 
> By the way, anyone who works at the a foreign mission, is no ordinary person. Visa officer's and Legal Attaché's are not here to sip tea and read newspapers...


 

Speculations are first step toward investigation or direct views toward different possibilities, nothing bad there. Even speculations must be replied as speculations. It is good idea if you will use your speculations to turn situation as you want. Being a good law obedient you are fail in international & domestic politics. Believe me.


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## ashok321

> The arrest of Davis has triggered a major row between the US and Pakistan. US officials have threatened to cut the $1.5 billion annual aid to Pakistan if Davis is not released, and Tuesday put bilateral contacts on hold



US seeks immediate release of Davis


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## rubyjackass

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are just looking at the first casualty of this skirmish---our foreign minister Mr Qureishi is a gone----just like that---he didnot want to compromise.


 He did not want to compromise on what exactly? Did he want to release Davis?


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## SpArK

*Can a Diplomat Really Get Away With Murder?​*
*Essentially, yes. Diplomatic immunity exists to theoretically prevent local legal disputes from interfering with the high-minded work of statecraft. Embassy and consular staff who violate laws may in rare cases face consequences back home, but while in their host countries, they can walk away from a range of crimes:*









Traffic fines: In New Yorkwhere the United Nations convenes this week for its 65th general assemblyforeign officials have racked up 200,000 unpaid parking tickets over the past 15 years. That's $20 million the city can't collect. It goes both ways, though: the U.K. isn't holding its breath for $5 million in traffic fines from U.S. diplomats working in London. 

Theft: The next most common offense of foreign agents in Washington? Sticky fingers, according to one State Department review. When the Secret Service arrested a Mexican diplomat in New Orleans in 2008 for allegedly stealing White House staffers' BlackBerrys and other technology, the man cited his immunity, got on a plane, and left the country scot-free. 

Tax and rent evasion: In 2005, diplomats from Zaire argued they didn't have to face a lawsuit over $400,000 in unpaid New York rentand the U.S. agreed. Not long after, Philippine diplomats in Manhattan turned their untaxable office space into a restaurant, a bank, and even a travel agency, ignoring a $1 million tax bill. 

Drunk driving: A Marine stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Romania was protected after a 2004 crash that left a famous musician dead. But in 1997, after a Georgian diplomat killed a 16-year-old girl in Washington, D.C., his government took the nearly unheard-of step of waiving immunity. He served time in a U.S. prison. 

*Murder*: It's rare, but it happens. In 1984, Libyan diplomats shot and killed a police officer from the window of their embassy in London. The country didn't admit responsibility until 1999. The shooter was never charged.

Can a Diplomat Really Get Away With Murder? - Newsweek

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## Bratva

*Capital City Police Officer (CCPO)Tarin told the media Davis shot at the fleeing boy and the motorcyclists did not point guns at him, adding that the gun recovered from the deceased was not loaded. He refused to comment on the diplomatic status of Raymond, saying his job was only to investigate the killing incident.

Tarin said eyewitness accounts and forensic reports showed that Davis did not shoot the men in self-defence. His plea has been rejected by the police investigators, he said, adding that Raymond gave no chance to them (deceased persons) to survive which implied that it was not in self-defence. The CCPO also quoted eyewitnesses as saying that Raymond had directly shot at the two boys and kept shooting even when one of them was running away. 

To a question, the CCPO said no fingerprints had been found on triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men and that tests showed the bullets remained in the magazine of their gun, and not the chamber. *

Davis act was clear case of murder: police



Height Of Ignorance, stubbornness , 

*Eyewitness accounts ignored, says US*

We understand that eyewitnesses at the scene said Ray acted in self-defence when confronted with two armed men on a motorcycle. We also understand that these men were found with stolen property and, as the police stated today, a loaded gun. We regret that authorities did not consider these eyewitness accounts and physical evidence when they stated that this was not a case of self-defence, said Camela Conroy, Consul General, Lahore

Washington regretted that the Lahore court did not consider eyewitness accounts and physical evidence when they stated that this was not a case of self-defence


Eyewitness accounts ignored, says US

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## Bratva

*It is Crystal clear at this point that those two were not robbers, Police Investigations have declared them innocent, Where are American Eagle, Solomon-2? Their whole theory was based on that those two people Were Robbers, I Know, Still they will deny the Investigations of our Police, But they should at least know, that Pakistani Police has declared them Innocent, And DAVIS a MURDERER*


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## pakdefender

the US should just stop bull shitting around with their nonsense that Raymond Davis is some innocent puppy who can just be let off since he was a consultant with the US consulate , he is a murderer , a spy , a blackwater-type agent

He CANOT be released!

There will be backlash and political fallout for the sitting gov ( or for that matter any institute ) seen to be responsible for the release of this scoundrel. There will be a flood of people on the streets of Pakistan that will totally bring down the menace of US emabassy and it associated consulates.

He needs to be hanged in the same place where he committed these murders.

And also the US and their new found chamchas should shut their traps about aid, giving aid helps them more than it helps us 

You can view giving of AID like that of a Car dealer arranging for quick finance, it benefits the car dealer more than the car buyer in the longer run. To this end car makers like Volkswagen even have their own banks

So the point is that this bullcrap about 'we give billions of dollars in aid' cannot held against Pakistan and frankly we don&#8217;t even need this aid, it hasn&#8217;t helped us


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## Developereo

Now comes the next danger phase: all sorts of bullshit speculation and conspiracy theories from both sides.

Everybody will try to muddy the waters as a pre-emptive move in case the final decision goes against their wishes.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Well, it appears to be true that Qureshi was removed because he refused to bend the rules to accommodate American demands over Davis.

Honestly, when you have this kind of so called 'liberal' political leadership, no wonder Pakistanis look favorably upon 'revolutions' and 'Islamic System'.

_The meeting, convened by the president was attended by Prime Minister Gilani Babar Awan, Rehman Malik, Shah Mehmood Qureshi and the DG ISI Gen Shuja Pasha. The president was given an exhaustive overview of the entire situation but quite early in the meeting it became evident that two of the men were standing on the wrong side of the prevalent dominant wisdom and desire of somehow finding a way to retrospectively cough up diplomatic immunity for Davis and to just wish away all the four deaths and the lingering crisis. But since one of the &#8216;erring&#8217; two dared not be arbitrarily fired, poor Qureshi&#8217;s fate stood sealed. 

Extreme pressure was exerted in the meeting on the former foreign minister to renege from his earlier stance and simply tell the court that the Foreign Office was in consonance with the American interpretation of Davis being a genuine diplomat and enjoying full immunity under Vienna Convention 1961. Facts be damned According to highly reliable sources, interior ministry&#8217;s immense resources were also offered to cause any necessary change of documentation or any exceptiona service warranted under these exceptional circumstances.

An adamant Qureshi, who had strongly argued the case that Raymond did not enjoy unlimited diplomatic immunity under law, flatly refused and even said that if need be, he&#8217;d rather resign than become an accessory to multiple murder. The meeting ended on a rather unsavoury and unexpected note. It was a surprising outcome for all the others because Qureshi had always been perceived, and even outcome for all the others because Qureshi had always been perceived, and even pilloried by the media, as being an American lackey and was not expected to dig in his heels over an issue so vital for the US administration. pilloried by the media, as being an American lackey and was not expected to dig in his heels over an issue so vital for the US administration._

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=3939&Cat=13&dt=2/12/2011

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Sorry, accidentally closed thread.


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> If there is a gun exposed---it doesnot matter---it does not need to be pointed---just the presence and intentional visibility is a death threat-----why---because of the reaction time of the other party---.
> 
> The man with the gun holds the fate of the other person in his hands---at his discretion and at his displeasure---.
> 
> In pakistan we don't have any resp[ect for police---but here in the U S----the safe distance in front of a cop is approximately 10 feet minimum---when a cop says stop you do that or you may get shot---why---any closer---the balance of power shifts from the cop to the other person---.
> 
> Similiarly---once the hand gun became exposed---in any form or way---it becomes a death threatening situation----seems like pakistabnis have not yet grown up to understand the significanc yet---.
> 
> It is amazing the police commander Mr Tareen is stating that there was no round in the chamber ( does that mean there was no threat )---I want to ask----do we have idiots throught and through our police dept even at officer level---no---let me call my fortune teller first and ask him---is there any round in the chamber---.


 
I agree that exposing a gun in place like that is a threat but if that was the case he should have contacted the police rather than firing 9 bullets, even pakistani law doesn't allow anyone to kill someone, unless it is a real threat to your life or property, so the question is did they point the gun at Mr. John Rambo? i guess not


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## DV RULES

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Well, it appears to be true that Qureshi was removed because he refused to bend the rules to accommodate American demands over Davis.
> 
> Honestly, when you have this kind of so called 'liberal' political leadership, no wonder Pakistanis look favorably upon 'revolutions' and 'Islamic System'.
> 
> _The meeting, convened by the president was attended by Prime Minister Gilani Babar Awan, Rehman Malik, Shah Mehmood Qureshi and the DG ISI Gen Shuja Pasha. The president was given an exhaustive overview of the entire situation but quite early in the meeting it became evident that two of the men were standing on the wrong side of the prevalent dominant wisdom and desire of somehow finding a way to retrospectively cough up diplomatic immunity for Davis and to just wish away all the four deaths and the lingering crisis. But since one of the &#8216;erring&#8217; two dared not be arbitrarily fired, poor Qureshi&#8217;s fate stood sealed.
> 
> Extreme pressure was exerted in the meeting on the former foreign minister to renege from his earlier stance and simply tell the court that the Foreign Office was in consonance with the American interpretation of Davis being a genuine diplomat and enjoying full immunity under Vienna Convention 1961. Facts be damned According to highly reliable sources, interior ministry&#8217;s immense resources were also offered to cause any necessary change of documentation or any exceptiona service warranted under these exceptional circumstances.
> 
> An adamant Qureshi, who had strongly argued the case that Raymond did not enjoy unlimited diplomatic immunity under law, flatly refused and even said that if need be, he&#8217;d rather resign than become an accessory to multiple murder. The meeting ended on a rather unsavoury and unexpected note. It was a surprising outcome for all the others because Qureshi had always been perceived, and even outcome for all the others because Qureshi had always been perceived, and even pilloried by the media, as being an American lackey and was not expected to dig in his heels over an issue so vital for the US administration. pilloried by the media, as being an American lackey and was not expected to dig in his heels over an issue so vital for the US administration._
> 
> It




Interesting, it means Army also desires to release RD? If Mr.Shuja Pasha attended meeting then why Qureshi replaced? I know one thing if Army didn't want to release RD then FM couldn't be changed. Second it seems like all mess of government & court trails loaded on Qureshi, if i am right!

Qureshi sacrificed his job for his Bosses?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DV RULES said:


> Interesting, it means Army also desires to release RD? If Mr.Shuja Pasha attended meeting then why Qureshi replaced? I know one thing if Army didn't want to release RD then FM couldn't be changed. Second it seems like all mess of government & court trails loaded on Qureshi, if i am right!
> 
> Qureshi sacrificed his job for his Bosses?


 
If you read the article, it suggests that DG ISI Pasha was on the side of Qureshi in opposing bending the rules to release Davis.

What exactly can the Army do, other than a military coup, if Zardari wants to replace anyone in his cabinet?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> If there is a gun exposed---it doesnot matter---it does not need to be pointed---just the presence and intentional visibility is a death threat-----why---because of the reaction time of the other party---.
> 
> The man with the gun holds the fate of the other person in his hands---at his discretion and at his displeasure---.
> 
> In pakistan we don't have any resp[ect for police---but here in the U S----the safe distance in front of a cop is approximately 10 feet minimum---when a cop says stop you do that or you may get shot---why---any closer---the balance of power shifts from the cop to the other person---.
> 
> Similiarly---once the hand gun became exposed---in any form or way---it becomes a death threatening situation----seems like pakistabnis have not yet grown up to understand the significanc yet---.
> 
> It is amazing the police commander Mr Tareen is stating that there was no round in the chamber ( does that mean there was no threat )---I want to ask----do we have idiots throught and through our police dept even at officer level---no---let me call my fortune teller first and ask him---is there any round in the chamber---.


I would argue that for the average civilian, merely seeing a gun 'exposed' is not justification enough to pump seven bullets into two people. The comparison with how law enforcement deals with the issue of a perceived threat does not apply in this case since law enforcement functions on established procedures and is authorized to use force given their 'job description'.

Raymond Davis, no matter what his past was, was not authorized to even be carrying weapons, let alone authorized to use them in the manner of law enforcement when perceiving a threat. So merely arguing 'exposure' should technically not cut it. 

Did one of the guys merely take out his gun to adjust it because it was not secure in a holster, and was coming loose or something? Did he, foolishly, take it out to look at and 'show off'?

There is an entire range of possibilities between 'accidental exposure' and 'attempted robbery', and not everyone of those possibilities justifies self-defence.

And where it can get even more complicated, as the police appear to be suggesting, is in Davis shooting down the suspect in the back as he was fleeing. That is rather hard to term as self-defence. Any normal individual would have been expected to contact law enforcement and seek safety once any alleged attackers were chased off, not hunt them down, kill them, make a video on a cell phone, and then attempt to escape from the scene.


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I would argue that for the average civilian, merely seeing a gun 'exposed' is not justification enough to pump seven bullets into two people. The comparison with how law enforcement deals with the issue of a perceived threat does not apply in this case since law enforcement functions on established procedures and is authorized to use force given their 'job description'.
> 
> Raymond Davis, no matter what his past was, was not authorized to even be carrying weapons, let alone authorized to use them in the manner of law enforcement when perceiving a threat. So merely arguing 'exposure' should technically not cut it.
> 
> Did one of the guys merely take out his gun to adjust it because it was not secure in a holster, and was coming loose or something? Did he, foolishly, take it out to look at and 'show off'?
> 
> There is an entire range of possibilities between 'accidental exposure' and 'attempted robbery', and not everyone of those possibilities justifies self-defence.
> 
> And where it can get even more complicated, as the police appear to be suggesting, is in Davis shooting down the suspect in the back as he was fleeing. That is rather hard to term as self-defence. Any normal individual would have been expected to contact law enforcement and seek safety once any alleged attackers were chased off, not hunt them down, kill them, make a video on a cell phone, and then attempt to escape from the scene.



exactly what i was trying to say.......but you explained it in a more approperiate manner, and if am not wrong then even in case of robbery one is not allowed to kill them?
@Mastan Khan, brother you tell me, on a traffic signal , you see two guys next to you, have a gun in their hand, would you straight away put 7 bullets into them ?


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## Rana4pak

While all eyes in the West are currently trained on the ongoing revolution taking place in Egypt, Russia&#8217;s Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is warning that the situation on the sub-continent&#8220;grave&#8221; as it appears open warfare is about to break out between Pakistan and the United States has turned .

Fueling this crisis, that the SVR warns in their report has the potential to ignite a total Global War, was the apprehension by Pakistan of a 36-year-old American named Raymond Allen Davis whom the US claims is one of their diplomats, but Pakistani Intelligence Services (ISI) claim is a spy for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Davis was captured by Pakistani police after he shot and killed two men in the eastern city of Lahore on January 27th that the US claims were trying to rob him. 

Pakistan, however, says that the two men Davis killed were ISI agents sent to follow him after it was discovered he had been making contact with al Qaeda after his cell phone was tracked to the Waziristan tribal area bordering Afghanistan where the Pakistani Taliban and a dozen other militant groups have forged a safe haven and former CIA agent Tim Osman (also known as Osama bin Laden) is believed to be in hiding. 

Of the actual gunfight itself we can read as reported by the Time News Service which, in part, says:

&#8220;The scene could have been scripted in a Hollywood action thriller: For two hours at the end of last month in Lahore, U.S. diplomat Raymond Davis was closely pursued by two visibly armed men on a motorbike. He noticed them tailing him from a restaurant to an ATM, and through the crowded streets of Pakistan's second [largest] city. They were close by when, in a crowded intersection, Davis produced his own handgun and fired seven shots.
The diplomat was apparently a crack shot, and all seven bullets found their mark, killing his two pursuers. Davis then called for back-up, and a four-wheel-drive vehicle raced onto the scene, striking a Pakistani bystander who was killed by the impact. But the people in the vehicle, whose identities remain unknown, escaped from the scene having failed to retrieve Davis, who was later arrested nearby.&#8221;

The combat skills exhibited by Davis, along with documentation taken from him after his arrest, prove, according to this report, his being a member of the feared American Task Force 373 (TF373) black operations unit currently operating in the Afghan War Theater and Pakistani tribal areas comprised of US Military Special Forces Soldiers, CIA spies and freelance mercenaries. 

Further information about Davis discovered by the Times of India includes:

&#8220;According to records from the Pentagon, Davis is a former Special Forces soldier who left the army in August 2003 after 10 years of service. A Virginia native, he served with infantry divisions prior to joining the 3rd Special Forces Group in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. In 1994, he was part of the U.N. peacekeeping force in Macedonia. His record includes several awards and medals, including for good conduct. 

Public records also show Davis runs a company with his wife registered in Las Vegas called Hyperion Protective Services, though it was not immediately clear whether the company has had many contracts with the U.S. government.&#8221;

Since Davis&#8217;s capture the US has exerted extraordinary pressure upon Pakistan to release him, including the American Ambassador warning President Asif Ali Zardari to release him &#8220;or else&#8221; and the cancellation of all talks between these two nuclear powered Nations. 

Today, according to this SVR report, this most critical of situations became even worse when a Pakistani judge refused to bow to American pressure and ordered a further 14-day detention of Davis, and which sparked an immediate threat from US National Security Advisor Tom Donilon, who told Pakistani envoy Hussain Haqqani that the Obama administration will &#8220;kick him out of the US&#8221;, close American consulates in Pakistan and cancel President Zardari's upcoming visit to Washington if their CIA spy wasn&#8217;t released immediately.

Fearing that the conflict over Davis may lead to open warfare, the Pakistanis were quick to let the Americans know they would not come out any conflict unscathed with their firing yesterday of their new Hatf-VII nuclear cruise missile (also called Babur after the 16th-century Muslim ruler who founded the Mughal Empire) that Major General Athar Abbas said &#8220;&#8230;can carry strategic and conventional warheads, has stealth capabilities, is a low-flying, terrain-hugging missile with high manoeuvrability, pinpoint accuracy and radar avoidance features.&#8221;

The United States Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) further reported yesterday that Pakistan appears to be building a fourth military nuclear reactor, signaling its determination to produce more plutonium for atomic weapons.

Most ominous in this SVR report, though, is Pakistan&#8217;s ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis&#8217;s possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists &#8220;nuclear fissile material&#8221; and &#8220;biological agents&#8221; they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to reestablish the West&#8217;s hegemony over a Global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse. 

Not known to the masses of the American people is that the $20 Trillion they have spent on their longest wars in history has bankrupted their Nation to such an extent that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) called yesterday for replacement of the US Dollar as the World&#8217;s reserve currency. 

More crucially that the American people are ignoring is the fact that their own government has unleashed against them a 21st Century update to the dreaded US Military &#8220;Operation Northwoods&#8221; campaign of terror designed to enrage them to accepting war as their main way of life. 

Operation Northwoods was a series of false-flag operation proposals that originated within the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the CIA, or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in US cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. One part of Operation Northwoods was to &#8220;develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.&#8221;

Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

&#8220;The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.&#8221;

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various US military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the US government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted and the proposals included in the plan were never executed.

James Bamford summarizes Northwoods as follows:

&#8220;Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.&#8221;

Though Operation Northwoods had the &#8220;approval&#8221; of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it did not have the approval of their boss, President John F. Kennedy (1917-1963), but who barely one year after his outright rejection of this monstrous plan to kill thousands of innocent Americans was gunned down as an example to any future US leader what would happen to them if they dared go against the wishes of the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC). 

Today, as the US Department of Homeland Security has just issued a grim warning that the threat of terror strike on America is at a higher level than it has been since September 11, 2001, and the WikiLeaks release of secret US government cables reveals that al Qaeda is on the brink of using a nuclear bomb, a new President stands between his people and the CIA warmongers with the only question being will he protect them like Kennedy did?

The answer to that question, sadly, appears to be &#8220;no&#8221; as new information recently obtained by US journalists show that not only has Obama failed to discipline those CIA officers who have led the United States to near total collapse, he has promoted them in numbers never before seen in history.
©February 11, 2011 EU and US all rights reserved. Permission to use this report in its entirety is granted under the condition it is linked back to its original source at WhatDoesItMean.Com. 



[Ed. Note: Western governments and their intelligence services actively campaign against the information found in these reports so as not to alarm their citizens about the many catastrophic Earth changes and events to come, a stance that the Sisters of Sorcha Faal strongly disagrees with in believing that it is every human beings right to know the truth. Due to our missions conflicts with that of those governments, the responses of their &#8216;agents&#8217; against us has been a longstanding misinformation/misdirection campaign designed to discredit and which is addressed in the report &#8220;Who Is Sorcha Faal?&#8221;.]

Read more: CIA spy Raymond Davis was giving nuclear fissile material to terrorists ~ Terminal X CIA spy Raymond Davis was giving nuclear fissile material to terrorists ~ Terminal X


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Sorry, accidentally closed thread.



Thank you for that clarification. I was drawing upon all sorts of conspiracy theories but now I think I dont need to any further!


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## American Eagle

Your making up your point of view does not create facts at all.

The fact is two now identified as established robbers tried to stick up Raymond Davis who by history of having to fire through his windshield found himself locked in heavy traffic with scooter mounted robbers pointing guns at him demanding his money.

The US Embassy has stated for the record that "they" required Mr. Davis to carry a weapon as part of his job description.

It was the two crooks who did not have permission to be carrying pistols.

Davis has a Diplomatic Passport and a valid Pakistani VISA issued in Islamabad good through June 2012.

Davis fired by all world norms in self defense. When your car is pinned in due to heavy traffic, which I used to experinece daily in all major cities of Pakistan where I went on US Embassy official business in the mid 1960s....the only way to defend against robbers pointing pistols at you is to fire through the windshield.

Aim is poor due to angle of deflection of a windshield with safety glass construction, so no so called "cluster" shots hitting anybody would be possible.

Diplomatic Immunity must prevail and Davis will have to leave Pakistan, for good.

Since when in the whole world do folks make heroes out of crooks who had just robbed two innocent Pakistani men before their failed stick up attempt upon Raymond Davis.

The "demonstrations" have been few and puny as thankfully most folks in Pakistan are not in favor of bandits and robbers.

The two Pakistani gentlemen's cell phones (2) were recovered by Police and are proof that the two were crooks attempted two robberies in the same day.

The Pakistan Foreign Office and Foreign Minister, together with the President of Pakistan, have to face the false baloney being ginned up by some who frankly hate Pakistan and want various sectors of same to seceed....and honor Diplomatic Immunity.

If the Pakistani courts want to compile a dossier and pass it through the US Embassy system back to the US Dept. of Justice for further review and investigation, this can be done, apart from in the meanwhile freeing Raymond Davis under Diplomatic Immunity for promp delivery back to the USA.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Sorry, accidentally closed thread.


 
Ha ha. Aap aise galtiyan bhi karte hain?


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> ................
> and to just wish away all the *four *deaths and the
> 
> .................



Four? Can this report be trusted if it contains such a grave error?

RD allegedly killed TWO, and a third person was killed by another driver in another vehicle. Who is this mystery FOURTH person if the report is correct?

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## RescueRanger

I still say let the guy go.


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## Imran Khan

VCheng said:


> Four? Can this report be trusted if it contains such a grave error?
> 
> RD allegedly killed TWO, and a third person was killed by another driver in another vehicle. Who is this mystery FOURTH person if the report is correct?


 
wife of a dead person she comet suicide sadly


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## Imran Khan

RescueRanger said:


> I still say let the guy go.


 
the make mullah omer our president it will be better for us.we cant face any more. its enough sir really en ugh


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## Abu Zolfiqar

AE --- list your sources

by the way was Davis (assuming thats his name) authorized to be driving in that area? Why was he not being escorted by agreed upon security arrangements?

and why did the rashly driven backup car flee from the scene of an accident in which a pedestrian was killed? Practice what you preach. In your country, that is manslaughter; incidetally, fleeing and evading from an accident is a felony. 

youve put the 'guest' and 'host' in a very awkward and testing predicament! I personally would strongly prefer the Davis remains in the country and let the courts decide his fate. The U.S. should set a good example and cooperate

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## RescueRanger

Imran Khan said:


> the make mullah omer our president it will be better for us.we cant face any more. its enough sir really en ugh


 
Imran Bahi i totally understand your sentiments. I can relate to it, i have been having the same discussion with my colleagues at work during tea. 

But then something in my mind says "Magar eik lalbaig ko marney key lia, apne jooti kyon gandi karo?" Flit Kharedo aur naak me damn ka do... Far better solution don't you think


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

RescueRanger said:


> I still say let the guy go.


 
are not we a nation, don,t we have our national pride or sovereignity ...................


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## Imran Khan

RescueRanger said:


> Imran Bahi i totally understand your sentiments. I can relate to it, i have been having the same discussion with my colleagues at work during tea.
> 
> But then something in my mind says "Magar eik lalbaig ko marney key lia, apne jooti kyon gandi karo?" Flit Kharedo aur naak me damn ka do... Far better solution don't you think


 

sachi main i was thinking i am liberal moderate no-1 of Pakistan but after this case i feel USA push me to think like a extremist. is there any limit for USA to kill pakistanis. i think we are in war with usa


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## Aslan

Some people are just beyond reality, it reminds me of a saying that you can teach a monkey all you want to, but you can never take the monkey out of them. Seriously for them it dont matter who says what, presents what proof they are just brainwashed beyond believe. What Mr. Quraishi had come out and said should have settled all debate, and shut every one up. Let the courts take their course as it has now been settled that davis was not a diplomat, and has no immunity. And then it is up to the GOP after the court had made their decision that whether they want this guy to be in jail in Pakistan or let free (which eventually will be the case)


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Imran Khan said:


> sachi main i was thinking i am liberal moderate no-1 of Pakistan but after this case i feel USA push me to think like a extremist. is there and limit for USA to kill pakistanis. i think we are in war with usa


 
you are not the only one , it was an incident that shocked both liberals and radicals. and liberals are more in aggression over this because if now we let him go radical elements can then easily justify talibans and other such forces.
justice for all................ our blood shouldn,t be cheap.


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## RescueRanger

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> are not we a nation, don,t we have our national pride or sovereignity ...................


 
Read my earlier posts before you ask me that question. There is more to this that just national pride. Anyway you are entitled to your opinion and i respect it. 

Imran Bahi, don't be too worried. This too will pass. All is not lost, we still have many great things to be proud of. Lahori Samosa's for one. Bas Chai peo, samosa kaho aur show ka maza lo...


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Ok now its public that the US excersied its influence behind the back doors , Every body knows that the US forced the FO to do something which was beyond the rules and legal jurisdiction , Ansar Abbasi interviewed Qureshi and Qureshi told that Hilliray asked him to grant RD the diplomatic immunity , Also the US Ambasador to Pakistan Cameron Munter clearly stated to Qureshi that he wont be able to meet Hiliry Clinton in Munich if RD isnt granted Diplomatic immunity. Its all public now, What ever the US will excersize now to save RD will not go blindfolded beyond the knowledge of ordinary Pakistan. The question with all these realities made public now , will US is willing to go ahead with its efforts to force the Pakistani FO to grant RD Diplomatic immunity... Which if granted will be the Political death of ruling PPP.

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## RescueRanger

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Which if granted will be the Political death of ruling PPP.


Amen brother, Amen.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

well as a patriot PAKISTANi i am really hurt because of it
us rizk se maut achi ,
jis rizk se aae perwaz mien kohtahi


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## RescueRanger

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> well as a patriot PAKISTANi i am really hurt because of it
> us rizk se maut achi ,
> jis rizk se aae perwaz mien kohtahi


 
Ye ap aur hum sooch sakthey hain... Awan-E-Sadar may sirif $ chalta hain.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Thank you for that clarification. I was drawing upon all sorts of conspiracy theories but now I think I dont need to any further!


 


The HBS Guy said:


> Ha ha. Aap aise galtiyan bhi karte hain?


Using my android touch screen phone and it was being 'touchy' (pun intended). Somehow closed the thread when I made my last post.

I know it was me since there is a history of all admin/mod actions in a thread.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

RescueRanger said:


> Ye ap aur hum sooch sakthey hain... Awan-E-Sadar may sirif $ chalta hain.


 
yep yehi to prob hae................. aap aur hum PAKISTANI hien but they....................................


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

any ways as a PAKISTANi i want justice for those who have suffered. 
but at same time i want things to be solved in best possible way so that no taboo on us both nationally and internationally..........

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Four? Can this report be trusted if it contains such a grave error?
> 
> RD allegedly killed TWO, and a third person was killed by another driver in another vehicle. Who is this mystery FOURTH person if the report is correct?


Mohammad Malick is a pretty decent journalist - I have read his work quite a bit over the years.

The error itself is not a major one.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Ok now its public that the US excersied its influence behind the back doors , Every body knows that the US forced the FO to do something which was beyond the rules and legal jurisdiction , Ansar Abbasi interviewed Qureshi and Qureshi told that Hilliray asked him to grant RD the diplomatic immunity , Also the US Ambasador to Pakistan Cameron Munter clearly stated to Qureshi that he wont be able to meet Hiliry Clinton in Munich if RD isnt granted Diplomatic immunity. Its all public now, What ever the US will excersize now to save RD will not go blindfolded beyond the knowledge of ordinary Pakistan. The question with all these realities made public now , will US is willing to go ahead with its efforts to force the Pakistani FO to grant RD Diplomatic immunity... Which if granted will be the Political death of ruling PPP.


 
The following article from January supports the argument that Qureshi was in fact doing things by the book, and had ordered a comprehensive 'clean up'.

FO scanning through all records of Protocol Division

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## Gin ka Pakistan

All Pakistani diplomates should park in no parking zones in Washington , no fear of ticket , they all have immunity but wait Clinton is against diplomates who brake the traffic laws in US, may be its more serious crime to her then killing few Pakistanis.

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## RescueRanger

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> All Pakistani diplomates should park in no parking zones in Washington , no fear of ticket , they all have immunity but wait Clinton is against diplomates who brake the traffic laws in US, may be its more serious crime to her then killing few Pakistanis.


 
They don't call her the "Nut Cracker" for nothing:

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

This is yet another source, supporting Mohammed Mallick's version of events with respect to Qureshi's dismissal by Zardari - refusing to bend the rules under American pressure:

Top Stories - Davis issue: Qureshi's stance costs him ministry

P.S: Am I pissed (given the number of posts on this issue and Zardari's shenanigans with the IB)?

Absolutely. Fuming.

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## W.11

all these neech log, these chawdrys, these taklas, these looteras,zameendars these waderas these jahil people, these dehatis who dont understand these criminals and still vote for them, all need to be banished from pakistan!!!!


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## W.11

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This is yet another source, supporting Mohammed Mallick's version of events with respect to Qureshi's dismissal by Zardari - refusing to bend the rules under American pressure:
> 
> Top Stories - Davis issue: Qureshi's stance costs him ministry
> 
> P.S: Am I pissed (given the number of posts on this issue and Zardari's shenanigans with the IB)?
> 
> Absolutely. Fuming.


 
btw your host country won, celebrate it not???


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## RescueRanger

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This is yet another source, supporting Mohammed Mallick's version of events with respect to Qureshi's dismissal by Zardari - refusing to bend the rules under American pressure:
> 
> Top Stories - Davis issue: Qureshi's stance costs him ministry
> 
> P.S: Am I pissed (given the number of posts on this issue and Zardari's shenanigans with the IB)?
> 
> Absolutely. Fuming.


 
Sir the problem is "spice" this story reads like the Saint Novels, obviously it has all the spice and our press know's just which knobs to turn, when to get our awam's attention. And the people are fixated with this, despite the recent goings on in Pakistan, the PIA protests, the recent crisis in Karachi etc... Raymond Davis is getting is 5 mins of Airtime on the hour, every hour on every god damn news channel in Pakistan. 

Now, just like you mentioned. How many are willing to broadcast news that Z & Co along with Mr. Blackwater Malik have been meddling with IB and Internal Security to suit their ends... ?

Exactly, the word fickle comes to mind here.


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## Imran Khan

Aston-Martin said:


> all these neech log, these chawdrys, these taklas, these looteras,zameendars these waderas these jahil people, these dehatis who dont understand these criminals and still vote for them, all need to be banished from pakistan!!!!


 
bhai hamary ooper kiyoon ghusa ker rahy ho sher ke log vote nhi dety kya hahahhahahahhaha


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aston-Martin said:


> btw your host country won, celebrate it not???


 
There is nothing to celebrate when injustice wins, whether it be Pakistan or the US.

There are plenty of Americans who opposed the Patriot Act provisions for example, and the Iraq war, though obviously not enough to make a difference at critical times.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RescueRanger said:


> Sir the problem is "spice" this story reads like the Saint Novels, obviously it has all the spice and our press know's just which knobs to turn, when to get our awam's attention. And the people are fixated with this, despite the recent goings on in Pakistan, the PIA protests, the recent crisis in Karachi etc... Raymond Davis is getting is 5 mins of Airtime on the hour, every hour on every god damn news channel in Pakistan.
> 
> Now, just like you mentioned. How many are willing to broadcast news that Z & Co along with Mr. Blackwater Malik have been meddling with IB and Internal Security to suit their ends... ?
> 
> Exactly, the word fickle comes to mind here.


It isn't the story itself RR, it is the mindset that this story (and the IB story, and the judiciary story, and the dismissal of the Punjab government story, and the various other 'stories' of government ineptitude and capitulation on matters of national interest and security) that are worrying.

The country is a mess, economically and from a security POV, the opposition just gave the GoP an ultimatum to fix things (regardless of whether they meant it or not) and the GoP's response is to fall to new depths of corruption and ineptitude!

That infamous quote by the PPP minister/leader, soon after forming the government, comes to mind;

"Corruption pay hamara haq hai" - "We have a right to commit corruption since we were elected by the people"

Zardari/PPP are living up to that quote pretty literally.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aston-Martin said:


> all these neech log, these chawdrys, these taklas, these looteras,zameendars these waderas these jahil people, these dehatis who dont understand these criminals and still vote for them, all need to be banished from pakistan!!!!


 
Yaar, many dehatis only vote for these SOB's because they hold all the power in their respective areas, and hold the keys to hopes of jobs, security and a better life.

What do you think the Wadera's, Jagirdar's and Sardars would do to any local dehati that might try to politically challenge them?

Remember what Bugti did to thousands of his own clan? All kicked out of their homes and into exile. He ran private jails in his territory - what do you think happened there?

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## DV RULES

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If you read the article, it suggests that DG ISI Pasha was on the side of Qureshi in opposing bending the rules to release Davis.
> 
> What exactly can the Army do, other than a military coup, if Zardari wants to replace anyone in his cabinet?



You can suggest but not clear statement about it. We don't know about 2nd person. 

Army ever played his rule in critical situations so we can not close eyes and passed aside saying that what army exactly can do!


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## pakdefender

*US push on detainee counterproductive: Pakistan*


ISLAMABAD: A Pakistani official is warning that US efforts to pressure Islamabad to release an American held for shooting dead two Pakistanis will be counterproductive.

Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir also said Saturday that a meeting about the Afghan war in Washington later this month will likely be rescheduled because of the dispute over the American.

*The US insists the American has diplomatic immunity and shot two Pakistani robbers in self-defense.
Pakistan has avoided verifying his diplomatic status and referred the case to the courts.*
Bashir acknowledged that the Washington meetings will likely have to be rescheduled because of the Davis case.

The sessions, to be held during the week of Feb. 20, would have included Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and senior Pakistani and Afghan diplomats.
He noted that the US and Pakistan have a long history, and said it is unthinkable that one incident should strain the relationship. Still, he said, Any US pressure on the issue of Raymond Davis will be counterproductive.

The foreign secretary went on to say that if he ever did something immoral and criminal, he wouldnt seek immunity.
But when asked to answer directly whether Davis has diplomatic immunity, Bashir refused to do so, saying it would be wrong to comment since the matter was in the courts.

US push on detainee


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## Siddiqui A

ISLAMABAD: When powerful men meet to discuss explosive issues, things can change in a big way. And that is precisely what happened after a highly secretive and immensely important meeting at the Presidency a few days back. The subject, not unexpectedly, being the fate of American killer Raymond Davis and that of Pakistan-US relations. Little did anyone know at the time that the huddle would instead end up deciding the fate of Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi.

The meeting, convened by the president was attended by Prime Minister Gilani, Babar Awan, Rehman Malik, Shah Mehmood Qureshi and the DG ISI Gen Shuja Pasha. The president was given an exhaustive overview of the entire situation but quite early in the meeting it became evident that two of the men were standing on the wrong side of the prevalent dominant wisdom and desire of somehow finding a way to retrospectively cough up diplomatic immunity for Davis and to just wish away all the four deaths and the lingering crisis. But since one of the erring two dared not be arbitrarily fired, poor Qureshis fate stood sealed.

Extreme pressure was exerted in the meeting on the former foreign minister to renege from his earlier stance and simply tell the court that the Foreign Office was in consonance with the American interpretation of Davis being a genuine diplomat and enjoying full immunity under Vienna Convention 1961. Facts be damned. According to highly reliable sources, interior ministrys immense resources were also offered to cause any necessary change of documentation or any exceptional service warranted under these exceptional circumstances.

An adamant Qureshi, who had strongly argued the case that Raymond did not enjoy unlimited diplomatic immunity under law, flatly refused and even said that if need be, hed rather resign than become an accessory to multiple murder. The meeting ended on a rather unsavoury and unexpected note. It was a surprising outcome for all the others because Qureshi had always been perceived, and even pilloried by the media, as being an American lackey and was not expected to dig in his heels over an issue so vital for the US administration.

But Qureshis latest run in with the Americans did not begin or end inside the Presidency. It had actually begun much earlier on January 28, a day after the deadly Raymond Davis incident in Lahore. He was in Karachi when he first received a call from US Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter and then had a conversation with US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Munter requested him for immediate councillor access to Davis and his immediate handover to US Consulate authorities. Qureshi asked Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir to talk to Munter and while authorising immediate councillor access to Davis made it clear to the foreign secretary that the matter of release would only be decided by the court as the legal process had already been kicked into motion in Punjab. Then came Hillarys call.

An understandably perturbed Hillary wanted the immediate handover of Davis and insisted that Pakistan was violating the Vienna Convention by the illegal incarceration of a US diplomat. Confirming the contents of that conversation to The News, Shah Mehmood said that he had patiently explained to Hillary that while he understood her anxiety she too had to understand the highly emotive and sensitive nature of the incident. And also that since the judicial process had been kick-started in Lahore, the Foreign Office and the US had little option but to submit to the due process of law. Anyway, the two decided to discuss the matter on the sidelines of the then forthcoming Munich Security Conference, and the line went silent.

Since then, Ambassador Munter and other senior embassy officials remained busy with engaging Pakistani authorities and the Foreign Office, blowing hot or cold, depending upon the level of their own frustration and the pressure coming their way from Washington. A few days prior to the Munich Conference, Qureshi received a call from Ambassador Munter who said that he had been directed to convey the message that unless Qureshi signed the diplomatic immunity paper prior to the conference, the scheduled meeting between him and Hillary would stand cancelled. The message was starkly clear a la George Bush: You are either with us or against us. So be it, Qureshi is reported to have told the ambassador and even cancelled his trip altogether. The chief of the army staff went instead to Munich and that is an appointment that even the US secretary of state cannot cancel, Davis or no Davis.

Once Qureshi ignored the latest Hillary communique, the Americans stopped talking to him altogether because it had now become evident that Qureshi was not going to budge on his stance of Davis not being eligible for full diplomatic immunity. Qureshi was no longer a welcome dinner guest and neither could he be allowed to remain in office. The last thing Washington can afford is his having a Pakistani foreign minister with a reawakened conscience.

According to highly reliable sources, the next claimed scalp may be that of the equally intransigent (from American perspective), Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir who is now the only remaining top level hurdle in the apprehended shameless handover of Davis by a compromised political leadership. The foreign secretary is also of the considered firm view that Davis does not qualify for full immunity. And there are legitimate causes for this argument, which were further exposed by glaring inconsistencies in the forever changing US stance on the issue.

Owing to the paucity of space, irrefutable arguments proving Davis ineligibility are not being reproduced here and also because a lot has already been written on the legal aspects of the subject, including the highlighted fact that in the initial reaction by US authorities, Raymond Davis was identified as merely an employee of the US Consulate in Lahore, but never as a diplomat. He was referred to as an employee and not a consulate general official. It was a simple clerical error was the incredulous justification offered by two senior members of the Islamabad embassy in an off-the-record conversation with the scribe. But it gets even better.

A lot is being made by the Americans and their interlocutors of the January 20, 2010 communication of the Islamabad embassy wherein the FO had been asked for the issuance of a non-diplomatic identity card for Davis. It is being argued that this communication clearly identifies Raymond Davis as being administrative and technical staff of Islamabad embassy and therefore automatically eligible for diplomatic immunity. But this is only half the story.

Certain discrepancies in 2010 had already caused the Foreign Office to seek clarifications. In Sept 2009, the US State Department had originally identified him as technical advisor (contractor) going on official business while applying for his visa. Later he was attached to US Consulate Lahore as an employee. So when his name popped up again in January 2010, identifying him as being attached with the US Embassy Islamabad, the FO wanted answers to some very pertinent questions. The relevant FO officials repeatedly asked the US embassy to provide the details of Davis new responsibilities along with those of his past postings. When weeks had passed with the embassy avoiding a categorical clarification on this count, the FO finally sent a formal Note Verbale to the US embassy on July 8, 2010. It bore ref no: P(1-A)/2009-ID(USA). This note pertained to a total of ten Americans about whom similar details were being sought from the embassy but no response had been forthcoming from the US end. Davis was listed as Note No:252/HR. When FO authorities were asked about the presence of 2009 in the reference number of the note verbale otherwise sent on July 8, 2010, they clarified that it was perfectly in accordance with their internal filing sequence and did not reflect any anomaly.

Unable to cover this critical gap in their argument to secure Davis release on the afterthought alibi of diplomatic immunity, the US embassy has adopted the rather incredulous argument of denying outright the existence of this critical correspondence. The FO has been told at the highest level that the US embassy never received this Note Verbale. The two senior functionaries stuck to the denial mantra when asked by The News about the embassys refusal to divulge the real assignments and other details of Davis and nine others. They insisted that all the embassy records had been thoroughly checked but there was no evidence of the cited note verbale ever being received. When they were told that the July 8 note was present in FO records and its existence and its having been sent to US embassy was recorded in more than one place and constituted a process that could not be tampered with within hours of an event taking place, the duo took the reference number of the missing note to ostensibly try locating it from their records. This raises an interesting question: if they still needed the reference number at this stage, then how did they even check their records earlier?

Can you name a single other incidence where prior to this particular note verbale or since, any note verbale sent by FO to the US embassy has ever gone missing? the two functionaries were asked. Not surprisingly, the duo could not cite a single such incidence.

Interesting coincidence one must say, where the entire US administration makes critical clerical errors which only expose Davis as being a non-diplomat. Another interesting coincidence again, when only one specific official communication out of hundreds of similar exchanges goes missing, and which once again stood to expose Raymond Davis for being anything but a legitimate diplomat on a legitimate diplomatic assignment.


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## mr42O




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Was Osama Bin Ladin not a diplomat in Taliban country , US did not consider any laws then nor when its drones bomb pakistani cites what immunity are they talking about ? 

The guy killed two people and was caught with guns , espionage videos and pictures this could get ugly and US should really appologize and send forward an apology and some aid rather then complicate the matter 

We need support not spies

Normally public if they get their hands on ppl like R Davis they beat them up with chappals real good

Or how about when a women was sentenced to life for mere pointing a gun at her kidnappers while this guy murdered civilians - 

This guy deserves a life sentence as well

Chakki pese ga na , weight halka ho jaiga


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

American Eagle said:


> Your making up your point of view does not create facts at all.
> 
> The fact is two now identified as established robbers tried to stick up Raymond Davis who by history of having to fire through his windshield found himself locked in heavy traffic with scooter mounted robbers pointing guns at him demanding his money.



any proof that the gun was pointed? because according to forensic report, they was no bullet in the chamber and no shots fired, only a stupid would go on a rampage without a loaded gun

*



The US Embassy has stated for the record that "they" required Mr. Davis to carry a weapon as part of his job description.

Click to expand...

*
It was the two crooks who did not have permission to be carrying pistols.[/QUOTE]

since when US Embassy started making laws in Pakistan, if US embassy says they required him doesn't permit him to carry a loaded weapon...get your facts straight this is Pakistan not yankies US.



> Davis has a Diplomatic Passport and a valid Pakistani VISA issued in Islamabad good through June 2012.]



Doesn't give him full immunity since it isn't a Diplomatic Visa, theres a diff b/w Official Business and Diplomat



> Davis fired by all world norms in self defense. When your car is pinned in due to heavy traffic, which I used to experinece daily in all major cities of Pakistan where I went on US Embassy official business in the mid 1960s....the only way to defend against robbers pointing pistols at you is to fire through the windshield.



exposure of a gun doesn't allow him to pump 7 bullets and FIY bullets were shot at the back, gun wasn't pointed at him
Aim is poor due to angle of deflection of a windshield with safety glass construction, so no so called "cluster" shots hitting anybody would be possible.



> Diplomatic Immunity must prevail and Davis will have to leave Pakistan, for good.



its upto court to decide, however i do hope that they let him go, guilty or not guilty



> The two Pakistani gentlemen's cell phones (2) were recovered by Police and are proof that the two were crooks attempted two robberies in the same day.



you see thats the issue here, they are not coming forward, no sign of these two so called victims, and i think physical evidence is getting heavy in this case



> If the Pakistani courts want to compile a dossier and pass it through the US Embassy system back to the US Dept. of Justice for further review and investigation, this can be done, apart from in the meanwhile freeing Raymond Davis under Diplomatic Immunity for promp delivery back to the USA.


 
You mean the most corrupt system in the world, the system which is trying so hard to get there guy free from Pakistan will punish him for his deeds in his land....a big lol mate


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

One would think Pakistan was Communist Cuba during the height of the Cold War, given the amount of stink the US is producing on the issue of Raymond Davis.


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## VCheng

Imran Khan said:


> wife of a dead person she comet suicide sadly



That is no reason to blame RD for 4 deaths. He is accused of shooting TWO, no more , no less. Playing fast and loose with facts only serves to undermine the process, as much of a farce as it is already.

Suicide is HARAAM in Islam by the way. According to some reports, Shumaila may have been pregnant. If four, then why not FIVE deaths? Or should she be blamed for the murder of her own unborn child? You see Sir, 'tis a slippery slope indeed that which you choose to tread.

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## pakdefender

> The meeting, convened by the president was* attended by Prime Minister Gilani, Babar Awan, Rehman Malik, Shah Mehmood Qureshi and the DG ISI Gen Shuja Pasha. *The president was given an exhaustive overview of the entire situation but quite *early in the meeting it became evident that two of the men were standing on the wrong side of the prevalent dominant wisdom *and desire of somehow finding a way to retrospectively cough up diplomatic immunity for Davis and to just wish away all the four deaths and the lingering crisis. *But since one of the &#8216;erring&#8217; two dared not be arbitrarily fired, poor Qureshi&#8217;s fate stood sealed*.



So it seems that the military does not want this murderer to be released unconditionally , this issue is far from over , the matter is in the court and all indications are that he will remain behind bars for the foreseeable future.


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## Zeeshan360

WTF ... Dirty Politics khelne ki bhi hadh hoti hai


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## American Eagle

You have your facts backwards. The two Pakistani thieves shot in action attempting robbery of Mr. Davis were found to have and been using illegal weapons, a pistol found with each man, together with stolen goods, two cell phones just stolen off of two Pakistani gentlemen by these two thieves, prior to the then attempted second robbery that same day against Mr. Davis.

You point a gun in a crowded setting at a stuck in traffic American in his car and tell him to hand over his money...and you get a proper response of defending one's self from threats then and there against his life. He fired in self defense and that is what happened. Mr. Davis was armed as per his US Department of State job requirements. He had what many Americans have to use in cities like Lahore a GPS, Pakistani-focused a commercial product to get around lahore in a car. He had his own cell phones, routinely a part of his US diplomatic job requirement. This is childish junk trying to make anything out of what happened...other than what it was, a damnable robbery attempt on Mr. Davis, who has and by international law must be admited to have diplomatic immunity.

Again, Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity. The Pakistani Foreign Office is derelict in it's duty to admit his diplomatic immunity status, and all stories about or from the FO don't change this fact. The Pakistani courts do not have legal standing ever to judge diplomatic immunity, that is controlled by international law and treaties which to date the GOP is defying in a most wrongful manner.

Two known now crooks who supported their families by robberies as no loss to society. All the blather about courts is wrong as the courts have to defer to diplomatic immunity and turn Mr. Davis over to the US Embassy officials so he can be deported from Pakistan permanently back to the US.


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## W.11

VCheng said:


> That is no reason to blame RD for 4 deaths. He is accused of shooting TWO, no more , no less. Playing fast and loose with facts only serves to undermine the process, as much of a farce as it is already.
> 
> Suicide is HARAAM in Islam by the way. According to some reports, Shumaila may have been pregnant. If four, then why not FIVE deaths? Or should she be blamed for the murder of her own unborn child? You see Sir, 'tis a slippery slope indeed that which you choose to tread.


 
but raymond killed her husband, do you realize the feeling of the widower, how she was with her husband death, a family supporter dead, a life sharer dead, children without future hope, no money no food, please consider this before opening your stupid mouth and before giving islamic fatwas becoming mullah, idiot.. and now tell your american master to spend more on you for becoming traitor to your own blood people.. and enjoy govt support if u r unemployed, such things dont happen in pakistan


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Ramon the murderer Davis should be beaten up and sleep deprived to ask who else was on his team , and what was his mission ? May be he was the guy who also bombed mosques and religious sites in Pakistan ? His equipment looks like he was operating rouge

I doubt his real name is even Ramond Davis ... 

He must have came along with 10-20 operatives 

I always questioned the logic to allow CIA operatives to come to Pakistan as embassy workers 

You don't hear Pakistani Diplomat killing US citizens with guns

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## 9/11donebythemeself

ramond deamon as lahore police called him what a name by our punhabi brothers they hit on target ,we all know vchen is not pak and this american eagle is blind me thinks he cant even see his own dirty claws.


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## American Eagle

Who do you think you are kidding? The suicide widow had been married to her robber husband less than six months and they of course had no children and she was not pregnant either.

Come off this insulting image you give to outsiders of how irrational Pakistanis must be...as that is the image you create for folks in Pakistan...who I knew quite well during my US Embassy/USAF tour of duty. From sweepers to top level business people the Pakistanis I knew loved both Pakistan and the US for all we then and now did and do to help your nation become better off and more stable.

Al this stuff over a failed robbery attempt does nothing to build a better image for Pakistan. No one over here in the US nor in the West believes the "stuff" folks like you put up on this otherwise useful to us military types historic and current military site. The people of Pakistan do not deserve your immature false remarks one bit. The people of Pakistan, as a whole, are as good and decent as any on earth, just have been repressed due to lack of democratic process...which process does not have a nations court system trying to "rule" the nation. That is nuts!


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Former Foreign Minister Qureshi has confirmed that the Pakistani Foreign Office had determined (while he was still Foreign Minister) that Raymond Davis does not have diplomatic immunity from prosecution over the killing of two Pakistanis.


> ISLAMABAD: Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has ruled out providing the kind of immunity to Raymond Davis which US called for, adding that the suspect is not a diplomat in Pakistan, Geo News reported.
> 
> Talking to Jang Group&#8217;s senior journalist, Ansar Abbasi, Qureshi said that Raymond Davis was not a US diplomat according to Pakistan&#8217;s official record as Foreign Ministry has searched out complete documents, dismissing likelihood of immunity for suspect which US demanded from Pakistan.


Qureshi dismisses US sought immunity for Davis

That also supports Mohammad Malick's piece with respect to the positions taken by FM Qureshi and the Foreign Office as he articulated them.

If the GoP, under a new Foreign Minister or Minister of State, now comes up with a different conclusion on Davis's diplomatic immunity, the selling out of Pakistan by Zardari and his PPP cronies will be clear and undeniable.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aston-Martin said:


> agno please ban this stupid american guy please....
> 
> he is running his mouth as stupid as his american gun


 
As long as he does not violate forum rules, personal attacks, abuse etc. he is doing nothing wrong and merely expressing his opinion on the issue under discussion. 

BTW, that POV is also the one taken by the US government, and it is a POV that the US is unofficially threatening to sever diplomatic ties, and cancel all aid, over. It is therefore not a POV that should be ignored or censored - rather it should be countered with facts and arguments supporting the Pakistani position, or at least the position of the Pakistani Military and the Pakistani Foreign Office under Qureshi - can't really speak for the 'aid whores' in the Presidency.

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## W.11

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As long as he does not violate forum rules, personal attacks, abuse etc. he is doing nothing wrong and merely expressing his opinion on the issue under discussion.
> 
> BTW, that POV is also the one taken by the US government, and it is a POV that the US is unofficially threatening to sever diplomatic ties, and cancel all aid, over. It is therefore not a POV that should be ignored or censored - rather it should be countered with facts and arguments supporting the Pakistani position, or at least the position of the Pakistani Military and the Pakistani Foreign Office under Qureshi - can't really speak for the 'aid whores' in the Presidency.


 
he is disrespecting the deceased pakistanis, as they are dead, and their dead widow too, is this not violation, how crazy is this forum, allowing american drunk to run his stinky mouth all the time, once twice, thrice but its too much now!!!

he is in a pakistani forum and he is supporting the terrorist american criminal black arse government and their propaganda, nothing has been proved that deceased guys were criminals, so why is this dude allowed to disrespect them??

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Raymond Davis itchy fingers on illegal weapon has put both Pakistan and US friendship on hold. He has exposed US interests in Pakistan and put Pakistani Government in tricky situation. every thing was going on under cover but his mistake costed US good will in Pakistani public and Pakistan lost a educated FM.

Oh man! when US embassy in Islamabad will be completed and there will be 600 Raymond Davis living in it and they all will have itchy fingers with hunting license under immunity , how many Pakistani will be killed by them. Time will Tell.

Raymond Davis itchy fingers have given extremist the chance to sell there side of stories against US in Pakistan and people might believe them now.

*What every happened is not good for Pakistan and US interests in the region. *


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## VCheng

Aston-Martin said:


> but raymond killed her husband, do you realize the feeling of the widower, how she was with her husband death, a family supporter dead, a life sharer dead, children without future hope, no money no food, please consider this before opening your stupid mouth and before giving islamic fatwas becoming mullah, idiot.. and now tell your american master to spend more on you for becoming traitor to your own blood people.. and enjoy govt support if u r unemployed, such things dont happen in pakistan



I perfectly understand the plight of the widow. However, I am also wise enough to differentiate between issues. 

I see no need to respond to your personal attacks. 

My voice speaks only the truth, without regard to color, creed, nationality or religion, and because of this bedrock of truth, I have nothing to fear.

Calling me names does nothing to change my convictions and my love for BOTH Pakistan and USA, which I have confessed openly and consistently from the day I joined this forum.

Further, as long as I abide by the rules, I have as much of a right to voice my opinions as anybody else on this forum, and I trust the Mods and Admin of this website to uphold this principle.

There is nothing wrong in what I said: Suicide is haraam is Islam, and RD cannot be held liable for Shumaila's death. Of course, if you can calm down and engage in intelligent discussion, I would like to hear your arguments refuting my points.

Over to you Sir.

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## pkd

*Clinton 'forced' Qureshi to grant immunity to Davis*

Islamabad, Feb 13 (IANS) Pakistan's former foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has said that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had pressurised him to verify the diplomatic immunity to Raymond Davis arrested for gunning down two men in Lahore.

'Hillary Clinton called me and wanted me to publicly confirm diplomatic immunity of Davis. However, I refused to do so because it was against the factual position in the case,' Qureshi was quoted as saying by Dunya News Saturday night.

'US envoy in Pakistan, Cameron Munter also called in the first week of Feb and demanded confirmation of diplomatic immunity to Davis,' Qureshi said, adding that 'the said request was also denied'.

'Munter threatened that Hillary Clinton would not meet me at the Munich security conference Feb 6, if the request was not granted,' Qureshi recalled.

According to the channel, Qureshi told the US ambassador that 'the issue in any case is now in court and the diplomatic immunity status will also be decided by the court'.

The diplomatic immunity to Davis and his possible handing-over to the US have been challenged in Lahore High Court and the hearing of case is underway.

Davis was arrested Jan 27 for gunning down two Pakistanis. He claimed that he acted in self-defence as the two armed men wanted to rob him. A court in Pakistan Friday sent him to jail on a 14-day judicial remand.

Qureshi, who was dropped from the federal cabinet, also visited the foreign office for a farewell Saturday afternoon. Earlier, he called on President Asif Ali Zardari to apprise him of the situation regarding the Pakistan-US ties and the Davis case.

Zardari requested him to return to the cabinet, but he declined. Qureshi made it clear that no portfolio other than foreign ministry was acceptable to him, the channel reported.

Qureshi's name was in the list of ministers supposed to take oath Friday after the cabinet was dissolved earlier this week to prune it. However, he refused to take oath at the last minute when he was offered water and power ministry instead of foreign affairs, the report said. 

Clinton 'forced' Qureshi to grant immunity to Davis


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## pkd

*Davis no diplomat*

LAHORE &#8211; Shah Mahmood Qureshi, the former foreign minister dropped in the truncated cabinet, has confirmed Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and cannot be extended diplomatic immunity, reports a private TV channel.
On his farewell visit to the Foreign Office, Qureshi said US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had asked him to endorse diplomatic immunity for Davis, but he had refused to entertain the demand. The ex-foreign minister said later US Ambassador Cameron Munter called him and threatened the cancellation of meeting with Hillary on the sidelines of the Munich conference if Davis wasn&#8217;t freed.
Qureshi said the Foreign Office had checked its record thoroughly. He said the prime minister wanted him to be silent on the Davis issue, as he (the PM) wanted the Interior Ministry to make all statements. Qureshi said he respects the party&#8217;s decision of dropping him in the slimline cabinet in the first phase.

Davis no diplomat | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*** duplicate message


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

American Eagle said:


> The thief's wife was living off his stolen money and stolen goods. He was killed "in his line of duty as a crook" and she then lost her stream of illegal income. Suicide is blasphemy under Islam on her part.


 
Firstly Egypt kicked out your beloved Hosni Mubarak ...

You keep it up and you will be left alone very quickly in world 

Its better then being married to an American terrorist on secret mission to commit terrorism inside Pakistan what was he doing with guns and bullets and stolen unregistered card , and pictures of sensitive location this guy should be trialed and all embassy workers in Pakistan should not be allowed to move untill he fully discloses all of his aliases 

If he was a real person right now , there would be stories about his children , and family and personal life flashing on cnn its not because they want to protect this son of a ... and his family so because he is a dirty snitch coming to Pakistan as a friend but he is up to his old dirty tricks

Here are the fact 

a) Americans get caught every where in world (right or wrong) yes ... like in Italy a American girl 
killed someone etc but do you hear Hiliary clinton coming to his aid?? No

b) So Whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhy all of sudden this UNKNOWN shaddy character .... is of SO MUCH INTEREST
that the secretary of state Hilary Clinton is coming to his Aid ?? 

Is he a Saint ? Is He Jesus ?? 

He was caught with illegal guns ... he was caught with illegal wireless devices , and untraceable phones, and did I mentioned he shot the victims 10 times ... some self defence ....

He was snooping around borders with India perhaps trying to figure out how he could smuggle in Terrorist from Afghan border into India or God knows what kind of thing he had in mind may be to bomb world cup games of course smuggle the ppl thru Pak-India border who knows

His phone had numbers traced to Afghan regions (so called terrorist bombing local cities) 

He came into Pakistan not as a Diplomat .. there are specific protocols for such 

He is a SPY and up to no good and unidentified mission and until him and his associates are caught he should be beaten up good and not allowed to meet anyone 

You can't just get unregistered cars and weapons ... unless you were provided these by US Embassy 

May be kicking out all American Embassy worker is good for Pakistan Stability but this American's full story has to be tracked - who he is .....


Normal Americans are treated well in Pakistan but I think these tactics are not gona work ...SURE CLOSE THE DIPLOMATIC ties ... you and us we all know ... YOUR SECRET IS OUT WHAT YOU WERE PLANNING TO DO SO PACK YOUR Bags ...as for Ramond Davis (alias of course) he has a date in court


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Aston-Martin said:


> he is disrespecting the deceased pakistanis, as they are dead, and their dead widow too, is this not violation, how crazy is this forum, allowing american drunk to run his stinky mouth all the time, once twice, thrice but its too much now!!!
> 
> he is in a pakistani forum and he is supporting the terrorist american criminal black arse government and their propaganda, nothing has been proved that deceased guys were criminals, so why is this dude allowed to disrespect them??


The admins and mods have asked both sides to refrain from calling the suspect and deceased 'murderers/terrorists and thieves/robbers'.

Neither side has chosen to back down, so it isn't just AE's fault.

From a factual POV, the use of the various terms the forum team would rather avoid (in the interest of preventing hostile and emotional discourse as we see currently) is legitimate given the respective positions being taken, so there is nothing wrong with the language AE has used for the most part, or the language used by Pakistanis to describe Davis, for the most part. 

If at any point discourse degenerates into derogatory generalizations of an entire nation or people, please point it out to us and we will address the issue as promptly as we can get to it.


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## twoplustwoisfour

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Ramon the murderer Davis should be beaten up and sleep deprived to ask who else was on his team , and what was his mission ? May be he was the guy who also bombed mosques and religious sites in Pakistan ? His equipment looks like he was operating rouge
> 
> I doubt his real name is even Ramond Davis ...
> 
> He must have came along with 10-20 operatives


 
Too.Much.Bollywood


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## SMC

I really hope ISI uses this guy to uncover the CIA mission in Pakistan and what exactly these guys are up to. I really wouldn't be surprised if CIA is involved in some of the terrorist attacks and is in bed with RAW.

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## MastanKhan

[Pakistani]-evilX;1479429 said:


> exactly what i was trying to say.......but you explained it in a more approperiate manner, and if am not wrong then even in case of robbery one is not allowed to kill them?
> @Mastan Khan, brother you tell me, on a traffic signal , you see two guys next to you, have a gun in their hand, would you straight away put 7 bullets into them ?


 
Hi,

Yes I would if circumstances allowed---I don't think that anyone of you have taken live shots---that is shot at a living thing---if you haven't then you have no clue what happens---how fast the time flies----and when the last bullet in the clip fired----. I can tell you of personal experience---and that was also on a bolt action rifle with a 5 round magazine---once I started---I didnot know when I fired the last shot---only the empty click made me realize what had happened---.

So---for Davis----7 shots were a very reasonable and a restrained number---a very calculated number of shots---an in-experienced opetrator would have let go of the full clip..

You people are uselessly arguing about not justifiable---once you put yourself in Davis's shoes---you will feel the justification of the reaction---now, him carrying a gun may not be jutifiable under the pakistani law and that is an issue in itself---.

But you have to understand as a person---you are in a hostile land---you have job to do---you have pictures loaded in your camera---you have guns and ammo on you---you are carrying knives on you---you are doing something illegal in the country that you are not supposed to do---.

Here is the problem with pakistan and the understanding of the pakistanis---wihtout any experience talk big---you people had no clue what kind of bird that you people have bagged---in your childish incompetence you are only looking at the superlative and not looking at the underlying issue---.

If you had any common sense you people would be asking this question----what is Raymond Davis's worth----why is Raymond's freedom so important that the u s is ready to break relations with pakistan in the middle of an on-going war---what does Raymond Davis have that the sec of state and president Obama and everybody else are standing up for him---who is this ,an Davis---.

The U S has never acted like that for anyone else before---no---have they! Open your eyes----open the vents of your brains---put your thinking caps on and ask---why such a strong reaction from the U S-----what kind fo knowledge this man has that the u s is trying so hard to get him back---. Think my children think.

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## pakdefender

pkd said:


> *Davis no diplomat*
> 
> LAHORE &#8211; *Shah Mahmood Qureshi, the former foreign minister dropped in the truncated cabinet, has confirmed Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and cannot be extended diplomatic immunity*, reports a private TV channel.
> On his farewell visit to the Foreign Office, Qureshi said US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had asked him to endorse diplomatic immunity for Davis, but he had refused to entertain the demand. The ex-foreign minister said later US Ambassador Cameron Munter called him and threatened the cancellation of meeting with Hillary on the sidelines of the Munich conference if Davis wasn&#8217;t freed.
> Qureshi said the Foreign Office had checked its record thoroughly. He said the prime minister wanted him to be silent on the Davis issue, as he (the PM) wanted the Interior Ministry to make all statements. Qureshi said he respects the party&#8217;s decision of dropping him in the slimline cabinet in the first phase.
> 
> Davis no diplomat | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



The Lahore High Court can ask for Shah Mahmood Qureshi as a witenss in this case , being ex-Foreign minister his words will carry a lot of weight and infact the US attempt to try and alter the course of justice through the removal of our Foreign Minister could back fire with a faster coviction for Raymond Davis.

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## F86 Saber

Here's my 2 cents. Such operatives from US have always been in Pakistan. If people remember they were running amok in Islamabad, threatening anyone who came near their residence with guns, not obeying traffic rules, not paying heed to security personnel. There were caught with guns numerous times but released without any charge. Had our govt. wanted to hush up this case under influence of USA they could have so easily proven that the deceased were in fact street criminals and RD would have gone scoot free. The fact that he has been held till now and charged of murder proves that this incident has given an opportunity to our security forces to issue a stern warning to the USA to stop meddling in our affairs. So it's either the ISI, or someone in our Govt. has recently grown some serious balls. I believe RD is going to be released eventually but i am happy for once we stood up to US.


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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> The thief's wife was living off his stolen money and stolen goods. He was killed "in his line of duty as a crook" and she then lost her stream of illegal income. Suicide is blasphemy under Islam on her part.


 
Mr American Eagle, What is your Problem Seriously? I think when ever you come to this thread, you click the last page, never bother to read couple of pages back, where i have posted Original Police Investigations which have concluded that, They were not robbers, 

Now Police Have presented their judgment on the basis of investigation???? Have u done any investigation that Concluded those two tried to Rob Raymond Davis?????? For Your Convenience I will Again Put the original Qoute of the The Investigation Officer of this case

*Capital City Police Officer (CCPO)Tarin told the media Davis shot at the fleeing boy and the motorcyclists did not point guns at him, adding that the gun recovered from the deceased was not loaded. He refused to comment on the diplomatic status of Raymond, saying his job was only to investigate the killing incident.

Tarin said eyewitness accounts and forensic reports showed that Davis did not shoot the men in self-defence. &#8220;His plea has been rejected by the police investigators,&#8221; he said, adding that Raymond gave no chance to them (deceased persons) to survive which implied that it was not in self-defence. The CCPO also quoted eyewitnesses as saying that Raymond had directly shot at the two boys and kept shooting even when one of them was running away. 

To a question, the CCPO said no fingerprints had been found on triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men and that tests showed the bullets remained in the magazine of their gun, and not the chamber. *

Davis act was clear case of murder: police

Now Mr American Eagle, If you don't have any substantial claim to prove that they were robbers ( yeah yeah, you will say that Two pakistani Citizens have lodged a complaint that these two accused try to rob them, but again Give me the clear cut claim of Police which have declared them Robbers after investigations, until then try to shut your mouth and try to develop some reading habits before posing your non-sense claims and rants)

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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> Your making up your point of view does not create facts at all.
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistan Foreign Office and Foreign Minister, together with the President of Pakistan, have to face the false baloney being ginned up by some who frankly hate Pakistan and want various sectors of same to seceed....and honor Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> If the Pakistani courts want to compile a dossier and pass it through the US Embassy system back to the US Dept. of Justice for further review and investigation, this can be done, apart from in the meanwhile freeing Raymond Davis under Diplomatic Immunity for promp delivery back to the USA.


 

F*ormer foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said in categorical terms on Saturday that as per the official record and advice given to him by experts in the Foreign Office, the American double murderer Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and cannot be given blanket diplomatic immunity.

&#8220;The kind of blanket immunity Washington is pressing for Davis, is not endorsed by the official record of the Foreign Ministry,&#8221; Qureshi said in a brief chat with The News.

Qureshi was reluctant to talk in detail on the issue, but when requested to offer his brief comment, he said: &#8220;On the basis of the official record and the advice given to me by the technocrats and experts of the Foreign Office, I could not certify him (Raymond Davis) as a diplomat&#8221;.

*

Davis does not have immunity: Qureshi


You know how to play with words, you make tall rants that, certain sections of Pakistan Governments are planting false claims about raymond davis, Now the Former Foreign minister who have thousand times more knowledge about Davis Diplomatic status have said himself that he is not a diplomat, then why are you repeatedly saying again and again he is a full fledge diplomat? Did you work in US State department? Have you given Raymond Davis, a Diplomatic passport that you are so sure he has a Diplomatic Status, It seems that, You are more knowledgeable than Former Pakistani Foreign Minister about this issue?


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## Jigs

This Raymond guy really does look to be in a shaddy line of work. You can tell with how aggressively the U.S. is maneuvering in trying to have him released. I very much doubt Pakistan is going to release this guy. The Pakistani media and public have put heavy pressure on the Pro-American government and i think they have no choice but to have the court system decide this guys case.


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> The thief's wife was living off his stolen money and stolen goods. He was killed "in his line of duty as a crook" and she then lost her stream of illegal income. Suicide is blasphemy under Islam on her part.


 
Such a pathetic post... Your a really sick man. I just want you to know that i have lost all respect for you, both human and professional. Go drown yourself in a well you sick, sick man!

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## RescueRanger

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> As long as he does not violate forum rules, personal attacks, abuse etc. he is doing nothing wrong and merely expressing his opinion on the issue under discussion.
> 
> BTW, that POV is also the one taken by the US government, and it is a POV that the US is unofficially threatening to sever diplomatic ties, and cancel all aid, over. It is therefore not a POV that should be ignored or censored - rather it should be countered with facts and arguments supporting the Pakistani position, or at least the position of the Pakistani Military and the Pakistani Foreign Office under Qureshi - can't really speak for the 'aid whores' in the Presidency.



Fair sir, how can slander against the deceased "woman", not be against the norms of civil discourse?? He is entitled to his opinion but that does not extend to defaming a women torn apart by grief. Even neutrality has certain limits.

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## VCheng

In all fairness, the poor lady who committed suicide is the most tragic victim indeed of this incident. I feel for her the most.

However, in such a bereavement, it is Pakistani cultural norm to provide support to the widow. This is usually done by the parents or brothers of her deceased husband, and is regarded as a matter of family honor. I wonder why that was not possible in her case.

Her action cannot be justified from an Islamic point of view, but the fact that she did, speaks volumes, more about the lack of an emotional and social support structure in her immediate family, than anything else.

I do not wish to take this thread off topic so I will make no more comments about this aspect of the case.

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## JonAsad

^^ the only thing that matters here is that-- she has committed suicide-- because she felt that the killer of her husband-- is going to walk freely-- without a even a trial-- its just like people burning them selves during protests-- The message they try to give is what should be taken-- No one risks his/her life for all the wrong reasons--

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## khurasaan1

F86 Saber said:


> Here's my 2 cents. Such operatives from US have always been in Pakistan. If people remember they were running amok in Islamabad, threatening anyone who came near their residence with guns, not obeying traffic rules, not paying heed to security personnel. There were caught with guns numerous times but released without any charge. Had our govt. wanted to hush up this case under influence of USA they could have so easily proven that the deceased were in fact street criminals and RD would have gone scoot free. The fact that he has been held till now and charged of murder proves that this incident has given an opportunity to our security forces to issue a stern warning to the USA to stop meddling in our affairs. So it's either the ISI, or someone in our Govt. has recently grown some serious balls. I believe RD is going to be released eventually but i am happy for once we stood up to US.


 
I dont think so... that he will be released ....Yes! If he will be released then he will be released only to the hell and nowhere else ..Insha-Allah...


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## VCheng

Glorious Resolve said:


> ^^ the only thing that matters here is that-- she has committed suicide-- because she felt that the killer of her husband-- is going to walk freely-- without a even a trial-- its just like people burning them selves during protests-- The message they try to give is what should be taken-- No one risks his/her life for all the wrong reasons--



I can accept your point of view Sir, without necessarily agreeing with it.


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## Patriot

Friday Gone - Haqqani still in USA...?I am sure most Pakistanis will be happy if Haqqani is thrown to Pakistan and Haqqani must be having nightmares.


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## DV RULES

pkd said:


> *Davis no diplomat*
> 
> LAHORE &#8211; Shah Mahmood Qureshi, the former foreign minister dropped in the truncated cabinet, has confirmed Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and cannot be extended diplomatic immunity, reports a private TV channel.
> On his farewell visit to the Foreign Office, Qureshi said US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had asked him to endorse diplomatic immunity for Davis, but he had refused to entertain the demand. The ex-foreign minister said later US Ambassador Cameron Munter called him and threatened the cancellation of meeting with Hillary on the sidelines of the Munich conference if Davis wasn&#8217;t freed.
> Qureshi said the Foreign Office had checked its record thoroughly. He said the prime minister wanted him to be silent on the Davis issue, as he (the PM) wanted the Interior Ministry to make all statements. Qureshi said he respects the party&#8217;s decision of dropping him in the slimline cabinet in the first phase.
> 
> Davis no diplomat | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


 
We didn't need useless & empty comments from Shah mehmood qureshi, his words have not importance as he officially out from foreign office. We had need his words clear & in press when he was on his seat.


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## majesticpankaj

i just heard the news that davis has been declared as a diplomat by pakistan home minister.. is it true?


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## DV RULES

VCheng said:


> I perfectly understand the plight of the widow. However, I am also wise enough to differentiate between issues.
> 
> I see no need to respond to your personal attacks.
> 
> My voice speaks only the truth, without regard to color, creed, nationality or religion, and because of this bedrock of truth, I have nothing to fear.
> 
> Calling me names does nothing to change my convictions and my love for BOTH Pakistan and USA, which I have confessed openly and consistently from the day I joined this forum.
> 
> Further, as long as I abide by the rules, I have as much of a right to voice my opinions as anybody else on this forum, and I trust the Mods and Admin of this website to uphold this principle.
> 
> There is nothing wrong in what I said: Suicide is haraam is Islam, and RD cannot be held liable for Shumaila's death. Of course, if you can calm down and engage in intelligent discussion, I would like to hear your arguments refuting my points.
> 
> Over to you Sir.


 
RD killed two men, yes, but in some case after situational changes put enough pressure & role to reshape whole scenario. Let it as it is.


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## DV RULES

majesticpankaj said:


> i just heard the news that davis has been declared as a diplomat by pakistan home minister.. is it true?


 
give link of news channel please.


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## majesticpankaj

DV RULES said:


> give link of news channel please.



this was quoted in IBNlive


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## JonAsad

majesticpankaj said:


> i just heard the news that davis has been declared as a diplomat by pakistan home minister.. is it true?


 
We dont have home ministers-- Interior Minister is Rehman Malik-


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> We dont have home ministers-- Interior Minister is Rehman Malik-


 
Relax, even if he's said anything, he'll just retract his statement. Rehman Malik is great at that isn't he?


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## Imran Khan

Patriot said:


> Friday Gone - Haqqani still in USA...?I am sure most Pakistanis will be happy if Haqqani is thrown to Pakistan and Haqqani must be having nightmares.


 
sab ko samjhna chayee USA khali dhamkiyaan deta hai yaar bus.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Relax, even if he's said anything, he'll just retract his statement. Rehman Malik is great at that isn't he?


 
I am not climbing a mountain in anguish-- I am Relax--
Yup- i agree-- he is great-- but- for all the wrong reasons--


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## JonAsad

Patriot said:


> Friday Gone - Haqqani still in USA...?I am sure most Pakistanis will be happy if Haqqani is thrown to Pakistan and Haqqani must be having nightmares.


 
yup, throw Haqqani-- and all the Haqqani's of this forum back in Pakistan-- so they may learn-- the reality--

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## AstanoshKhan

As what was expected.

*Zardari Wants Raymond Davis Freed*

by Ahmed Noorani

ISLAMABAD: *President Asif Ali Zardari has asked the Foreign Office in categorical terms that Raymond Davis should be given diplomatic immunity and for this purpose the Foreign Office should immediately issue a backdated letter notifying Raymond as &#8216;member of staff in US embassy, Islamabad&#8217;, top Foreign Office officials confirmed to The News.
*






After taking lengthy briefings and having some decisive meetings with US officials, the Presidency has told the Foreign Ministry in categorical words that for granting diplomatic immunity to Raymond Davis, all preparations should be finalized immediately.

But while the Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit maintained a very cool &#8220;No comment&#8221; on the subject, the Presidency stonewalled all requests for a version and the outspoken and unofficial spokesperson of President Zardari Senator Faisal Raza Abidi said he would not say anything but the Foreign Office should be asked to comment. So the ball was thrown back to the &#8220;No Comments&#8221; of the FO.

Sources close to Presidency, however, rejected the report. They said detractors of President Zardari are behind this baseless allegation. They said the Presidency can never ask Foreign Office to do anything illegal.

Privately senior FO officials are ready to share many details. &#8220;It was clarified to the president that as per record of the Foreign Office, Raymond Davis was a member of &#8216;consular staff in US Consulate in Lahore&#8217; so in accordance with Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963, he did not enjoy absolute immunity especially in the case of a grave crime and that now according to article 41(1) of the same convention of 1963 only superior court could decide the issue of immunity of Raymond Davis,&#8221; a top Foreign Office source told this scribe.

&#8220;The president, who has taken briefings from US side as well, has advised us to issue a backdated letter showing Raymond Davis as &#8216;member of the staff of US embassy in Islamabad&#8217; so that 1963 Vienna Convention could not apply on him and as member of the US embassy-Islamabad he may fall in the domain of Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 and thus could claim immunity from criminal jurisdiction,&#8221; the FO official said.

The official explained that under Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961, all the diplomatic and non-diplomatic (administrative and technical) staff appointed in an embassy enjoys immunity from criminal jurisdiction whereas under Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963, the consular staff appointed in consular posts or consulates in cities other than capitals of the host states didn&#8217;t have immunity from criminal jurisdiction especially in cases of grave crimes.

The FO official confirmed to The News that as per record of the Foreign Office on the day of incident of killing of three Pakistanis in Lahore, Raymond was a member of consular staff in US consulate. The sources said that Raymond also spent some time in Islamabad and Peshawar but was later appointed as member of technical staff in US Consulate in Lahore.

The official disclosed that US embassy in Pakistan has requested The Foreign Office to include the name of Raymond Davis in the list of diplomats, a request which was ignored. The top official further revealed that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made the same request to former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on phone which was also softly refused by giving the excuse that now the issue was in court.

The official said the status of Raymond Davis that he was a &#8220;member of the consular staff in US Consulate Lahore&#8221; was clear to all and he himself after being arrested told the Lahore police and all investigators who had encounters with him that he was appointed as technical consultant in US Consulate Lahore.

&#8220;On the day of incident, the US Consulate came on record and stated on media that Raymond was member of consular staff at US Consulate Lahore,&#8221; the top Foreign Office official said adding &#8220;Neither Raymond&#8217;s name was in the list of the diplomats maintained at Foreign Office and updated regularly nor he was ever issued a mandatory diplomatic card by the Foreign Office which is a must for claiming immunity not only in Pakistan but also in USA,&#8221; the senior official added.

In privately taped footage inside the police station, released to Geo TV on Friday, Raymond himself admits very clearly that he was a &#8216;consultant&#8217; at the Lahore Consulate.

A FO source said it was only on the third day of the incident that after becoming aware that there were no chances of saving Raymond in double murder case, US embassy in Islamabad issued press release claiming Raymond as member of the US embassy which was a baseless thing.

The Foreign Office official showed this scribe official documents of US Department of State instructing members of US law enforcement agencies and US judiciary to not to grant immunity to any person, claimed to be diplomat, until he didn&#8217;t possess a special card issued by the department of state.

He said as per article 10(1) of the even 1961 convention, the notification of Foreign Office accrediting a person as diplomat or enjoying any level of immunity is a must. The official maintained that in no way any such inclusion in the list of accredited diplomats could be made retrospectively nor could Raymond be issued a card now which could certify his immunity.

&#8220;On the other hand we have received strict orders to issue a back-dated letter showing Raymond as member of US embassy, Islamabad,&#8221; the official said adding, &#8220;As the issue was in court and courts are analysing each and every aspect of all documents, no one in Foreign Office is ready to accept this big challenge.&#8221;

He said even the outgoing foreign minister has hinted that this backdated letter containing admission of Foreign Office having record of Raymond&#8217;s appointment in USA embassy will have to be made and produced before the courts as it was an order.

Spokesman of the presidency Farhatullah Babar neither took the call nor replied to The News sent the questions through messages. He was asked simply to verify or deny the latest presidency&#8217;s pressure on Foreign Office to issue a backdated letter showing Raymond as member of the US embassy in Islamabad, but he never responded.

However, advisor to the President Zardari, Faisal Raza Abidi when asked this question by The News said that only Foreign Office will speak on this issue.

On the other hand spokesperson of US embassy Courtney Beale, when approached by The News replied as follows: &#8220;It is wrong information that US embassy approached Foreign Office of Pakistan to get registered name of the Raymond Davis in list of accredited diplomats. In fact US embassy Islamabad had notified to Foreign Office back in January 2010 that Raymond Davis has arrived in Pakistan and he will serve as member of technical staff in USA Embassy Islamabad. Raymond was later temporarily sent to Lahore.&#8221;

Foreign Office officials however deny having any such information and say according to record and information available with it, Raymond was working as member of consular staff in US Consulate Lahore.

A senior FO official gave the example of US Foreign Service officer Sabrina de Sousa, who was appointed in US embassy in Rome, Italy in 1999. &#8220;De Sousa was later deputed in US consulate in Milan, Italy in 2001 and was found allegedly involved in an incident of extraordinary rendition (kidnapping) in 2003. She left Italy in 2004 and her involvement in the kidnapping incident was investigated later. Though she was sent and appointed in US embassy in Rome but at the time of incident she was deputed at US consulate in Milan thus US didn&#8217;t plead for her immunity as a diplomat as she was representing the US consulate in Milan. It was a consular office and had no immunity in grave crimes like kidnapping,&#8221; the official said.

According to De Sousa&#8217;s media statements, she was unable to move outside USA as she will be arrested by EUROPOL as she will land on any European airport.

Courtney Beale, however, said that she was unaware of the incident of De Sousa and will respond to The News soon as to why USA did not demand immunity for her from Italy on charges of kidnapping despite the fact she also was appointed in US embassy in Rome.


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## JonAsad

> President Asif Ali Zardari has asked the Foreign Office in categorical terms that Raymond Davis should be given diplomatic immunity and for this purpose the Foreign Office should immediately* issue a backdated letter notifying Raymond as &#8216;member of staff in US embassy*, Islamabad&#8217;, top Foreign Office officials confirmed to The News.



The courts are not going to accept that-- Forgery


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## Imran Khan

AstanoshKhan said:


> As what was expected.
> 
> *Zardari Wants Raymond Davis Freed*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> e.



ab kon si gaali doon is ko mery nafrat ki had khatam ho gai hai .

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## W.11

The HBS Guy said:


> Relax, even if he's said anything, he'll just retract his statement. Rehman Malik is great at that isn't he?


 
so-err bharti swine err....


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## Spring Onion

News Channels are reporting Baber Awan as saying that he has demanded release of Afia Siddiqui in exchange for release of Davis.

now this is an interesting development if takes place

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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> News Channels are reporting Baber Awan as saying that he has demanded release of Afia Siddiqui in exchange for release of Davis.
> 
> now this is an interesting development if takes place


 
What rubbish? Since when did international relations start functioning that way?

Anyways, don't know about Pakistanis but Americans for sure don't work that way. This Awan guys is mighty misaken if he thinks anything as preposterous as that will ever materialize.

Pakistani govt. will be making a fool out of itself if it ever tried to conduct international relations like that.


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## W.11

no afia sidiqqui is less important than hanging that amreeki terrorist.. no compromise on providing justice to the grieved families..


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## Imran Khan

The HBS Guy said:


> What rubbish? Since when did international relations start functioning that way?


 
Kandahar hijack ke time apni gov ko kaha hota jani hahahahaaa

there is no rule in jungle dear

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## The HBS Guy

Imran Khan said:


> Kandahar hijack ke time apni gov ko kaha hota jani hahahahaaa
> 
> there is no rule in jungle dear


 
They were hijackers. Criminals. Terrorists. Are you?

We're talking of international relations here.


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## Imran Khan

The HBS Guy said:


> They were hijackers. Criminals. Terrorists. Are you?


 

...........................................................


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## DV RULES

Imran Khan said:


> ab kon si gaali doon is ko mery nafrat ki had khatam ho gai hai .


 
Ask webmaster to extend your limit of Nafrat. You will need in next days.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Imran Khan said:


> Kandahar hijack ke time apni gov ko kaha hota jani hahahahaaa
> 
> there is no rule in jungle dear


 
You're comparing your government to a bunch of hijackers? Are you admitting that Afia is a terrorist?


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## Imran Khan

twoplustwoisfour said:


> You're comparing your government to a bunch of hijackers? Are you admitting that Afia is a terrorist?


 
which GOV ? . i dont accept these bastards my gov.


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## Imran Khan

DV RULES said:


> Ask webmaster to extend your limit of Nafrat. You will need in next days.


 
seriusly my hate limits are over i cant hate more then this. wanna suicide or kill them one by one


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## The HBS Guy

Imran Khan said:


> yes since he kill our pakistanis i am thirsty of US blood. i am thinking to buy a sniper and start hunting US citizens in pakistan from far away .


 
Please be serious.

This is not the way to talk. If you are angry, just switch off your computer and go outside and have some kababs or something.


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## VCheng

Imran Khan said:


> yes since he kill our pakistanis i am thirsty of US blood. i am thinking to buy a sniper and start hunting US citizens in pakistan from far away .


 


Imran Khan said:


> seriusly my hate limits are over i cant hate more then this. wanna suicide or kill them one by one



Please tone your rhetoric down. Not only does it reflect badly on all of us, it may also expose you to legal ramifications. I am serious about this: PLEASE TONE YOUR RHETORIC *DOWN*.

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## DV RULES

Imran Khan said:


> yes since he kill our pakistanis i am thirsty of US blood. i am thinking to buy a sniper and start hunting US citizens in pakistan from far away .


 
it is too much, 
every problem must be solve on solid, logic & appropriate manners.
Believe: Pakistan has solid positions to overcome this situation by many other way outs.

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## Spring Onion

The HBS Guy said:


> They were hijackers. Criminals. Terrorists. Are you?
> 
> We're talking of international relations here.


 
You are talking nonsense. first learn to differentiate between an Official Govt Stance and a personal statement by a politician.

and btw next time dont brag about Kandahar hijacking etc etc when your Indian government official freed accused criminals


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## Imran Khan

The HBS Guy said:


> Please be serious.


 
yes i am there is no way to save pakistan from these butchers

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## twoplustwoisfour

Imran Khan said:


> yes since he kill our pakistanis i am thirsty of US blood. i am thinking to buy a sniper and start hunting US citizens in pakistan from far away .


 
I don't think it is appropriate for a 'Premium Member' to behave this way


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## Imran Khan

DV RULES said:


> it is too much,
> every problem must be solve on solid, logic & appropriate manners.


 
and thats what our maroon gov working to release him.?


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## Imran Khan

twoplustwoisfour said:


> I don't think it is appropriate for a 'Premium Member' to behave this way


 
there not much then this in mind now.i wanna do more but have no idea


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## Spring Onion

twoplustwoisfour said:


> You're comparing your government to a bunch of hijackers? Are you admitting that Afia is a terrorist?


 
NO we are assuming the one who killed two Pakistanis fits in this definition and Afia fits in definition of innocent captors by unlawfully so releasing her from the captivity of aggressors might lead to same practice which your Indian govt adopted by freeing many accused in exchange for Indians.


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## Spring Onion

twoplustwoisfour said:


> You're comparing your government to a bunch of hijackers? Are you admitting that Afia is a terrorist?


 
NO we are assuming the one who killed two Pakistanis fits in this definition and Afia fits in definition of innocent captors by unlawfully so releasing her from the captivity of aggressors might lead to same practice which your Indian govt adopted by freeing many accused in exchange for Indians.


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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> and btw next time dont brag about Kandahar hijacking etc etc when your Indian government official freed accused criminals


 
I don't know how to put this to make it easy on your comprehension skills but hey, lemme try:

At that time Indian govt. was dealing with terrorists. 

The way I see it, neither GoP nor the US govt. can be equated to kandahar terrorists. 

Be a little less emotional and you'll see things clearer.


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## JanjaWeed

Jana said:


> News Channels are reporting Baber Awan as saying that he has demanded release of Afia Siddiqui in exchange for release of Davis.
> 
> now this is an interesting development if takes place


 
if this is true, then it will set a bad precedence in intl diplomacy. it's like prisoner exchange by govt for a captured soldier by a terrorist group. sounds very undiplomatic!!


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## twoplustwoisfour

Jana said:


> NO we are assuming the one who killed two Pakistanis fits in this definition and Afia fits in definition of innocent captors by unlawfully so releasing her from the captivity of aggressors might lead to same practice which your Indian govt adopted by freeing many accused in exchange for Indians.


 
Actually, Afia was arrested on the charges of terrorism, ala Masood Azhar, and you've captured an American to free that person, ala the hostages. 

So yes, the analogy stays.


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## The HBS Guy

Imran Khan said:


> yes i am there is no way to save pakistan from these butchers


 


Imran Khan said:


> and thats what our maroon gov working to release him.?


 


Imran Khan said:


> there not much then this in mind now.i wanna do more but have no idea



Cool down, What you're saying can only be called either madness or terrorism. I know you are better.

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## VCheng

Jana said:


> News Channels are reporting Baber Awan as saying that he has demanded release of Afia Siddiqui in exchange for release of Davis.
> 
> now this is an interesting development if takes place


 
JanaJi: This development is interesting, but for different reasons: Psychologically, this is just one more of a series of steps from "We will never let him go" to "We will let the courts decide" to "Well, we may let him go for this, that or the other" to the next few steps.


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## Imran Khan

The HBS Guy said:


> Cool down, What you're saying can only be called either madness or terrorism. I know you are better.


 
terrorism should be reply with terrorism. what they do with us we have every right to do same with them. if an US dog can shoot publicly kill pakistanis pakistani have every right to hunt down every US mad dog inside pakistan.wanna see what happen with US solders in Somalia 1993

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## Aslan

Amriki chaploos out in full force derailing the thread. Good work guys, keep up the sh@tty attitude.

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## Aslan

Dr Afias case is another face saving exercise by the american agents sitting in Islo. They are just going to drag the situation around with these statements till they can come up with a solution to fix things with their masters and let the murderer go free.


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## Spring Onion

StreetHawk said:


> if this is true, then it will set a bad precedence in intl diplomacy. it's like prisoner exchange by govt for a captured soldier by a terrorist group. sounds very undiplomatic!!


 
Your govt already did that in hijacking case.

anyway its just a personal statement of a politician not Pakistani Govt stand.


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## DV RULES

StreetHawk said:


> if this is true, then it will set a bad precedence in intl diplomacy. it's like prisoner exchange by govt for a captured soldier by a terrorist group. sounds very undiplomatic!!


 
If this happened then it depends on our government she has to sit in the cage or not, as Davis obviously released if in exchange he will face court in US.
Undiplomatic or diplomatic not important, government already made sense to speak and what they need. A prison exchange with prison. So in next time think better while concentrate over diplomatic or undiplomatic. International relations is name of how to bypass rules.

These beautiful laws looks cute in books but not in reality and i think you know about it.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> JanaJi: This development is interesting, but for different reasons: Psychologically, this is just one more of a series of steps from "We will never let him go" to "We will let the courts decide" to "Well, we may let him go for this, that or the other" to the next few steps.


 

You are right but i see it would be an acceptable step for majority. besides such an arrangement will be beneficial for both and specially US supported govt in Pakistan for further tasks .

US has recently also threatened to cut off civilian exchange programs including in field of eduction and science which sounds more blackmailing

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## VCheng

Jana said:


> You are right but i see it would be an acceptable step for majority. besides such an arrangement will be beneficial for both and specially US supported govt in Pakistan for further tasks .
> 
> US has recently also threatened to cut off civilian exchange programs including in field of eduction and science which sounds more blackmailing



JanaJi: Thank you for a very level headed post. I respect your point of view immensely.


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## DV RULES

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Actually, Afia was arrested on the charges of terrorism, ala Masood Azhar, and you've captured an American to free that person, ala the hostages.
> 
> So yes, the analogy stays.


 
Then let me say that Davis case also not different, he shot to men in open crowded area, first act of killing, second act of terrorism (another story why this act is not included in case) third suspect spying.


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## JanjaWeed

Jana said:


> Your govt already did that in hijacking case.
> 
> anyway its just a personal statement of a politician not Pakistani Govt stand.


 
jana.. c'mon you are better than this!! let's not compare govt of a country to group of terrorist hijackers!!


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## Spring Onion

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Actually, Afia was arrested on the charges of terrorism, ala Masood Azhar, and you've captured an American to free that person, ala the hostages.
> 
> So yes, the analogy stays.


 


Afia is charged wrongly on charges of pointing gun at US soldiers in Afghanistan its NOT at all a case of terrorism, she did not kill anyone rather she was kept in illegal captivity by Americans at Bagram.

and i would just say bharatis are proving their self more than beasts by claiming if anyone has captured a killers.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Jana said:


> *Afia is charged wrongly *on charges of pointing gun at US soldiers in Afghanistan its NOT at all a case of terrorism, she did not kill anyone rather she was kept in illegal captivity by Americans at Bagram.
> 
> and i would just say bharatis are proving their self more than beasts by claiming if anyone has captured a killers.


 
Please don't confuse your personal opinions with facts proven in the court of law.


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> Afia is charged wrongly on charges of pointing gun at US soldiers in Afghanistan its NOT at all a case of terrorism, she did not kill anyone rather *she was kept in illegal captivity by Americans at Bagram*.
> 
> and i would just say bharatis are proving their self more than beasts by claiming if anyone has captured a killers.



JanaJi: She was arrested/kidnapped on Pakistani soil and then formally handed over to the Americans by Pakistani personnel of a certain agency. If there is any illegality in this process, it lies within Pakistan.


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## Spring Onion

StreetHawk said:


> jana.. c'mon you are better than this!! let's not compare govt of a country to group of terrorist hijackers!!


 
Your Indian Govt sat with that group of hijackers and freed them along with paying them bags full of dollars 

so no i am not comparing your Indian govt with groups of hijackers  because your govt is good at state terrorism than those hijackers


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> JanaJi: She was arrested/kidnapped on Pakistani soil and then formally handed over to the Americans by Pakistani personnel of a certain agency. If there is any illegality in this process, it lies within Pakistan.




 very right. And the point still remains the same that she is unlawfully wrongly punished for something she never did.


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## Spring Onion

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Please don't confuse your personal opinions with facts proven in the court of law.


 
Please all of you bharatis should also not confused your personal one sided opinion with course of law in Pakistan regarding Davis case.


What was proven in US court the entire world has seen that so dont twist the event for supporting crime by an American


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RescueRanger said:


> Fair sir, how can slander against the deceased "woman", not be against the norms of civil discourse?? He is entitled to his opinion but that does not extend to defaming a women torn apart by grief. Even neutrality has certain limits.


 
The offending post has been deleted.

I request American Eagle and everyone else to avoid such comments in the future and limit yourselves to discussing the topic without disparaging others, especially those not directly involved in the events that resulted in the deaths of three people.

If the Americans want to call the two men 'thieves' and claim Davis has diplomatic immunity, that should be respected since that is the position the US government is taking, though we don't have to agree with it. The same with Pakistanis calling Davis a 'cold blooded murderer or spy. But please limit your comments to the individuals involved in the events.

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## The HBS Guy

Jana said:


> Afia is charged wrongly on charges of pointing gun at US soldiers in Afghanistan its NOT at all a case of terrorism, she did not kill anyone rather she was kept in illegal captivity by Americans at Bagram.



1. She's not a diplomat neither is there any controversy regarding her diplomatic status.

2. Neither Govt. of Pakistan nor US Administration can be equated to terrorists even by the wildest stretch of imagination.

3. There's doubt regarding Aafia's Pakistani nationality. There's no doubt regarding Davis' nationality.

4. Aafia is accused of terrorism, Davis is not. 

5. Aafia has been sentenced for life by a court. 

6. There's no international precedent of such swapping in international relations. 

7. The US doesn't work that way. They'll send a commando team and get Davis out rather than swapping him for a convicted terrorist. 

8. It will set a very bad precedent in international relations. Think about it, tomorrow another country will arrest some country's nationals and ask for similar swapping or other demands to be met. Very bad precedent.


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## American Eagle

Statements from the inside Pakistan media regarding Raymond Allen Davis summarized are:

- Davis was faced with two armed robbers who tried to stick him up.

- Immediately prior to the same two robbers had successfully held up two Pakistani gentlemen taking their cell phones (2) and money/cash.

- Two robbers drove up to Davis in his car, which car was stuck in heavy traffic but robbers on motor cycles could move about whereas car was stuck in traffic...the two robbers pointed guns at Davis and attempted to hold him up.

- Davis responded by bringing out his gun, which is and was authorized for him to have as part of his job in diplomatic protection security work for the US Embassy.

- Davis apparently fired from inside his vehicle at the two armed robbers on motor cycles. 

- Davis to date is not charged with murder but is being held for further orders from the GOP Foreign Ministry to clarify Davis's diplomatic status. The Pakistani Foreign Ministry has been ordered by the Pakistani court to rule formally and openly on the GOP recognition of diplomatic immunity for Mr. Davis.

- The facts which I believe and am following in the US and rest of the world media is the US Ambassador's statement that Davis is under US Diplomatic immunity, has a proper Paksitani VISA good through June, 2012, and per the US Ambassador and the US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton...Davis is being illegally held in violation of his factual diplomatic immunity.

- Mr. Davis was only involved with the two crooks/robbers who failed in their hold up attempt of him. There is allegedly a second issue not involving Mr. Davis of a pedestrian killed in a motoring accident also in Lahore in same area, same day, the media suggesting that the driver was a Pakistani who may be in the employ of the US Consulate there in Lahore.

- Pakistan police in Lahore have told the media also that the two robbers were involved in several other armed robberies which the police there were already looking into when the two robbers failed in their last hold up attempt. Mr. Davis fired at the two attacking robbers in self defense.

- Those cursing at me, using vile language are not dealing in the core fact...which is that the Pakistani Foreign Office has been told by the court there to rule on Davis diplomatic immunity, as the court cannot proceed with allegations against Davis until the court first knows clearly what the GOP FO opinion is on his, Davis, diplomatic immunity. The need for the FO to formerly rule is the agenda, the item which the court has ordered the GOP FO to rule on as it is the job and duty of the FO in such diplomatic matters to address Davis valid Diplomatic Passport and his valid Pakistan VISA thereon. I think the court has given the Pakistani Foreign Office 15 days within which to rule on Mr. Davis diplomatic immunity. Diplomatic Immunity as claimed by Mr. Davis, the US Ambassador and the US Department of State, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

- The sharp reaction by Members of the US Congress who recently visited Pakistan is a serious additional consideration. The entire US Congress is indicating it's displeasure and annoyance that Paksitan to this moment fails to recognize Davis diplomatic immunity.

- Yes, the duly elected US Congress can on it's own intiative start to cause problems for the GOP for their failure to observe international law whereby Davis does have diplomatic immunity.

- BOTTOM LINE: Various postings here "blaming" Davis for in their view being the bad guy simply failed to recognize and admit that the Pakistani media and police in Lahore have admitted the two killed in act of attempted armed robbery are known to them crooks.

- It baffles me and many here in the US that folks cannot understand that an authorized to carry a weapon by the US Embassy there in Pakistan diplomat, Mr. Davis, has yet to be recognized as in fact having full diplomatic immunity. Holding a US Diplomatic Passport with approved expires in June 2012 Pakistan VISA validates Mr. Davis as covered by Diplomatic Immunity. It remains for the Pakistani Foreign Office to obey their own court's Order for them, the Pakistani FO to acknowledge that Mr. Davis does have absolute diplomatic immunity.

- To repeat, Mr. Davis fired on the two robbers in self defense, fearing for his life with guns by them aimed at him.


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> very right. And the point still remains the same that she is unlawfully wrongly punished for something she never did.



Thank you for conceding that the root of the illegality in her conviction lies within Pakistan. _"Iss hamaam mein sab nangay hein."_


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## JanjaWeed

Jana said:


> Your Indian Govt sat with that group of hijackers and freed them along with paying them bags full of dollars
> 
> so no i am not comparing your Indian govt with groups of hijackers  because your govt is good at state terrorism than those hijackers


 
never mind!!


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## LeGenD

Imran Khan said:


> terrorism should be reply with terrorism. what they do with us we have every right to do same with them. if an US dog can shoot publicly kill pakistanis pakistani have every right to hunt down every US mad dog inside pakistan.wanna see what happen with US solders in Somalia 1993


Tone down your emotions. Try killing one and then face the consequences. You will end up ruining your life only. Leave the computer for a while and do some outing to refresh your mind.

Also, Somalia is not a valid example. Somalia was under UN mandate in 1993 and not under US occupation. Those Somali butchers not just killed 18 US soldiers but also 23 Pak soldiers. Think rationally.

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## S.U.R.B.

*Drones in slumber after Davis incident*

By Usman Manzoor 


> ISLAMABAD: Whether it is a deliberate US policy or a mere pleasant coincidence but not a single drone attack has hit the country since January 27, when the American killer Raymond Davis was arrested in Lahore after he killed two young men.
> 
> The last attack was carried out on January 23 and so far over 2,000 people have been killed in such attacks since 2004.
> 
> The American Embassy spokesperson, Courtney Beale when contacted said that the embassy does not speak on security issues therefore she did not have any comment on the drone attacks stoppage after the Davis issue.
> 
> The Conflict Monitoring Centre, an independent research centre which monitors the drone attacks, confirmed that there have been no drone attacks since Raymond Davis was arrested. According to the CMC report there were 11 drone attacks reported during January 2011, killing 49 people.
> 
> At least 10 people were also wounded in these attacks. All the drone attacks were carried out in North Waziristan Agency of the Fata. No significant militant casualty was reported during the month.
> 
> January had otherwise been a busy month for the drones as five attacks were carried out.
> 
> The New Years day was the deadliest as the dawn of 2011 brought death for 19 people while ten people sustained injuries. The attack targeted a house while the second struck the rescue workers on the spot. Two other drone attacks separately hit two vehicles in the area.
> 
> January 23 was the second deadliest day of the month when 13 people were killed in three different drone attacks. In the first and second strike, a drone hit a vehicle and a motorcycle, respectively. In another strike, an alleged militant compound and a vehicle were targeted.



Drones in slumber after Davis incident

An observation,( on which i was keeping an eye) came today in a newspaper "The News".A nice coincidence.

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## VelocuR

Awesome Endless Discussions!........

We all have been standing up to the barking and unnecessary threats. ex-FM Shah Mehmood Qureshi is one of them, kudo!


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## VelocuR

*Clinton &#8216;forced&#8217; me to grant immunity to Davis: Qureshi* 


LAHORE: Former foreign minister, Shah Mahmood Qureshi, said that *US State Secretary Hilary Clinton had pressurised him to sign the summary giving diplomatic immunity to Raymond Davis, a US functionary who brutally killed two Pakistani nationals in Lahore, but he refused to oblige, a private TV channel reported on Saturday. Talking to high officials of Foreign Office (FO) after his farewell visit to the FO in Islamabad, Shah Mahmood Qureshi said that Clinton exerted pressure on him to verify the diplomatic immunity to Raymond Davis, but he refused to do so. He further said that US Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter, also telephoned him and said if immunity to Davis would not be verified then Hilary Clinton would not have a meeting with him in Munich, Germany*. daily times monitor

YouTube - Hillary Clinton Falls 
Hilarious, how come she fall down after Qureshi refused?

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## W.11

abhi tu hilary se muasqa chal raha tha, abhi hilary is pressurizing him hahahahahahaha nice...


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes I would if circumstances allowed---I don't think that anyone of you have taken live shots---that is shot at a living thing---if you haven't then you have no clue what happens---how fast the time flies----and when the last bullet in the clip fired----. I can tell you of personal experience---and that was also on a bolt action rifle with a 5 round magazine---once I started---I didnot know when I fired the last shot---only the empty click made me realize what had happened---.
> 
> So---for Davis----7 shots were a very reasonable and a restrained number---a very calculated number of shots---an in-experienced opetrator would have let go of the full clip.....
> You people are uselessly arguing about not justifiable---once you put yourself in Davis's shoes---you will feel the justification of the reaction---now, him carrying a gun may not be jutifiable under the pakistani law and that is an issue in itself---.



i completely agree with you r facts ,and let me clarify, am not arguing over the speculations and getting sentimental, but over the facts and figures given by the CCPO and forensic report, 
the problem is pakistani awaam is getting sentimental over this issue, ppl saying that close US embassies kick all diplomats do this do that, then i think thats not appropriate, i personally think we need to play dirty in this case, keep US on our side and get the awaam on our side too..... we can't agree over the exposure of the weapon,
i was refering to AE that US embassy required RD to carry a weapon but that doesn't allow him to carry him lock and loaded, without informing local authorities so yes that gun was illegal





> But you have to understand as a person---you are in a hostile land---you have job to do---you have pictures loaded in your camera---you have guns and ammo on you---you are carrying knives on you---you are doing something illegal in the country that you are not supposed to do---.
> 
> Here is the problem with pakistan and the understanding of the pakistanis---wihtout any experience talk big---you people had no clue what kind of bird that you people have bagged---in your childish incompetence you are only looking at the superlative and not looking at the underlying issue---.
> 
> If you had any common sense you people would be asking this question----what is Raymond Davis's worth----why is Raymond's freedom so important that the u s is ready to break relations with pakistan in the middle of an on-going war---what does Raymond Davis have that the sec of state and president Obama and everybody else are standing up for him---who is this ,an Davis---.
> 
> The U S has never acted like that for anyone else before---no---have they! Open your eyes----open the vents of your brains---put your thinking caps on and ask---why such a strong reaction from the U S-----what kind fo knowledge this man has that the u s is trying so hard to get him back---. Think my children think.



* tbh this is what i have been thinking for last few days, whats so important about this guy, as far as i know its CIA / USA policy that if a Delta/Dev Gru/ S.A.D operative is caught in the host country then US/CIA won't take his/her responsiblity and simply refuse to identify them, and i thought it was a myth that these boys dn't exist but i now think i was wrong, no one came forward who would say i know this man........
* If you listen to Hameed Gul's interview then he pointed towards the Delta / Dev Gru recruitment mission, so lets suppose these two were criminals then that means Washington Post was correct abt spy meet gone bad

* this is not the first time an amercian is caught with a illegal weapon, it happens almost everyday in ISB, so the twist in this case is that there is continous leakage of information from police, like his passport , photos from camera, and the video recorded from a hidden cam, you can't say its jst police acting on its own, someone is backing them up .......i personally believe its ISI which on top is with zardari but on other side playing dirty and exposing thez operatives because they had enough.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes I would if circumstances allowed---I don't think that anyone of you have taken live shots---that is shot at a living thing---if you haven't then you have no clue what happens---how fast the time flies----and when the last bullet in the clip fired----. I can tell you of personal experience---and that was also on a bolt action rifle with a 5 round magazine---once I started---I didnot know when I fired the last shot---only the empty click made me realize what had happened---.
> 
> So---for Davis----7 shots were a very reasonable and a restrained number---a very calculated number of shots---an in-experienced opetrator would have let go of the full clip..
> 
> You people are uselessly arguing about not justifiable---once you put yourself in Davis's shoes---you will feel the justification of the reaction---now, him carrying a gun may not be jutifiable under the pakistani law and that is an issue in itself---.


Sir, with all due respect, the inability to realize how quickly you may fire off shots when 'spooked', is not automatically justification for your actions. Carrying a weapon with the ability to take lives so easily means there is a heavy responsibility to use that weapon only in certain situations - these situations are more flexible for Law enforcement, but not so in the case of civilians and therefore Davis.

First and foremost - given that Davis did not follow diplomatic protocol and was in an area he wasn't suppose to be in with weapons he was not authorized to carry suggests that he himself is partly responsible for the events that have occurred since. Secondly, as I pointed out before, merely bein 'spooked' for any number of reasons (which I tried to illustrate in my past post) is not justification for a 'quick reaction that resulted in firing off a weapon seven times'. That argument simply wont cut it for a civilian in a court of law without being able substantiate a significant threat, and therefore justification, to the individual responsible for firing his weapon.

If an individual cannot analyze a situation properly before firing his weapon, he should not be carrying a weapon.



> But you have to understand as a person---you are in a hostile land---you have job to do---you have pictures loaded in your camera---you have guns and ammo on you---you are carrying knives on you---you are doing something illegal in the country that you are not supposed to do---.


That is entirely Davis's fault, for putting himself in the situation he was in - it is not justification for firing his gun. He still needs to establish a valid self-defence justification.


> Here is the problem with pakistan and the understanding of the pakistanis---wihtout any experience talk big---you people had no clue what kind of bird that you people have bagged---in your childish incompetence you are only looking at the superlative and not looking at the underlying issue---.
> 
> If you had any common sense you people would be asking this question----what is Raymond Davis's worth----why is Raymond's freedom so important that the u s is ready to break relations with pakistan in the middle of an on-going war---what does Raymond Davis have that the sec of state and president Obama and everybody else are standing up for him---who is this ,an Davis---.
> 
> The U S has never acted like that for anyone else before---no---have they! Open your eyes----open the vents of your brains---put your thinking caps on and ask---why such a strong reaction from the U S-----what kind fo knowledge this man has that the u s is trying so hard to get him back---. Think my children think.


I think you are overestimating Davis's worth - nothing about him indicates he was more than a common spy or security/intelligence contractor. US threats and bullying on the issue is a direct result of arrogance and a sense of entitlement arising out of our Government being 'aid whores' and willing to sell out the national interest for the sake of a few dollars, since the end of 'dollars' will mean that the only way they can keep the country afloat in the miserable condition it is now is by actually 'governing and reforming' which they are incapable and unwilling to do.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

The truth is "Iraq has Weapons of mass distraction and Raymond Davis is a diplomat". 
Well might is right and world believe even when US lie. if you have spine to say the truth you will lose your job and that's what happened to Ex-Pakistani FM.
Well US likes spine less people and they should be on top of Pakistan as elites.

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## ashok321

Common sense prevailing among most knowers of this case would agree that RD would be let off, just because Quereshi has been compromised, and that means GOP has eliminated a known staunch opponent. If that happened (any time soon), it means GOP has seen the light at the end of tunel - to preserve K-L dollars flow. And not to speak of US citizens ill will towards Pakistan.


*Gallup poll : 76% of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Pakistan.*








Hence I conclude that Pakistan is in a bind - damn if I do, damn if I dont type....

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

This board must not be a springboard for members to make terrorist threats to any country---this board is not here for the terrorist agenda---memebers must refrain from using this language and the MODS / ADMINS etc must take charge and delete any threats / blood letting and terrorist activityies against others.


There is a limit to stupidity---all this bragging my pak colleagues are doing is similiar to the "SPAGHETTI SYNDROME"----which mean----looks so strong when dry---but then pour some water on it an it becomes jello----or put pressure on it and it breaks into pieces.

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## unicorn

Hum aah bhi karte hain to........
ho jate hain badnam

wo qatal bhi kartain hain to charcha nahi hota


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MastanKhan said:


> Agno,
> 
> Please---please---please----cut your crap for the moment. First shoot at someone---see what happens then talk.Thank you.


 
Please, please, please, remain civil in your discourse as I have been.

Secondly, whether I have experience firing a gun or not is irrelevant. You ignored, or did not understand, the crux of my argument. If an individual is incapable of analyzing a situation properly with respect to whether or not it actually poses a threat to his/her life, before firing his/her weapon, he/she should not be carrying a weapon. 

Innocent people should not have to suffer because those carrying weapons can't handle the adrenaline rush from perceiving themselves (accurately or inaccurately) to be in danger and firing their weapons in response and killing/maiming someone. As the person carrying the gun and firing it, one has a responsibility to ensure that it is used in a proper manner - otherwise pay the price for not being able to control your adrenaline.

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## [Pakistani]-evilX

ashok321 said:


> Common sense prevailing among most knowers of this case would agree that RD would be let off, just because Quereshi has been compromised, and that means GOP has eliminated a known staunch opponent. If that happened (any time soon), it means GOP has seen the light at the end of tunel - to preserve K-L dollars flow. And not to speak of US citizens ill will towards Pakistan.
> 
> 
> *Gallup poll : 76% of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Pakistan.*
> 
> 
> Hence I conclude that Pakistan is in a bind - damn if I do, damn if I dont type....


 
in reposnse to your video and americans gallup poll, i you havn't seen this video then start watching it from 3:30min


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## [Pakistani]-evilX

double post : Sorry


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

ashok321 said:


> *Gallup poll : 76% of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Pakistan.*


And the Americans complain about 'anti-American sentiment' in Pakistan, when there is an equivalent amount of 'anti-Pakistan sentiment' in their own nation, largely based on the unsubstantiated nonsense and conspiracy theories bashing and vilifying Pakistan and its military/intelligence, spouted by their media and 'analysts'.


> Hence I conclude that Pakistan is in a bind - damn if I do, damn if I dont type....


He is an ordinary spy security/intelligence contractor - the US will do nothing more than some short term, limited measures were the GoP to not bend the rules to grant Davis immunity. The reason the US is acting the way it is is precisely because they know the GoP are aid whores and are hoping for the pressure and threats to work.

Pakistan is by no means 'damned' if it refuses to bend the rules for America's sake. As many economic analysts have pointed out, basic reforms in taxation and governance can yield billions of dollars in savings a year for Pakistan, equal to or more than the aid from the US and IFI's. Pakistan can survive, and prosper, without US aid - the ability and willingness of the corrupt scum in the GoP currently of doing that is under a cloud.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This board must not be a springboard for members to make terrorist threats to any country---this board is not here for the terrorist agenda---memebers must refrain from using this language and the MODS / ADMINS etc must take charge and delete any threats / blood letting and terrorist activityies against others.


There are over 2000 posts in this thread and I will admit up front that I have not read anywhere close to a majority of them.

Please let us know specifically which post is an issue and we will address it as we see fit.


> There is a limit to stupidity---all this bragging my pak colleagues are doing is similiar to the "SPAGHETTI SYNDROME"----which mean----looks so strong when dry---but then pour some water on it an it becomes jello----or put pressure on it and it breaks into pieces.


Arguing for the rule of law and not bowing to threats and blackmail is hardly something to be categorized as 'bragging'.

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## ashok321

> GoP are aid whores



GOP watch out for AIDS.....Lol




> Pakistan is by no means 'damned' if it refuses to bend the rules for America's sake. As many economic analysts have pointed out, basic reforms in taxation and governance can yield billions of dollars in savings a year for Pakistan, equal to or more than the aid from the US and IFI's. Pakistan can survive, and prosper, without US aid - the ability and willingness of the corrupt scum in the GoP currently of doing that is under a cloud.



Pakistan has the lowest tax to GDP collection, and we have been watching the trend since its (Pak) inception, how many years more?
Any time table?
Untill then I will be assuming that yes, fish can ride the Kawasaki bike.....


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## RescueRanger

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think that anyone of you have taken live shots---that is shot at a living thing---if you haven't then you have no clue what happens---how fast the time flies----



Someone as senior as yourself should not be making sweeping statements and assumptions. Having not only killed a fellow human to survive but done it to protect the lives of others in my charge i can tell you that it's a matter of do or die. But that does not mean i shoot the cycle walla passing my principal just because he was reaching into his pocket. 

There is a massive difference between responsible discharge of your firearm and spraying and praying, depending on what technique you are taught to deploy Point Shooting, Applegate Shooting method, Double Tap or whatever... *There is a difference between shoot to kill and shoot to survive. *

Secondly don't be so critical of your PAKISTANI brethren.

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## VCheng

I believe, as I have been saying all along, that ALL sides need to calm down their rhetoric, and wait for the process to play out in a rational manner. The stakes are high no doubt, but adding frenzy to the mix will not achieve anything useful for anybody.

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## r3alist

the OP should be continually updated with the latest developments, will save time for those of us who cant trawl through 200 pages


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## Gin ka Pakistan

ashok321 said:


> Common sense prevailing among most knowers of this case would agree that RD would be let off, just because Quereshi has been compromised, and that means GOP has eliminated a known staunch opponent. If that happened (any time soon), it means GOP has seen the light at the end of tunel - to preserve K-L dollars flow. And not to speak of US citizens ill will towards Pakistan.
> 
> 
> *Gallup poll : 76% of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Pakistan.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hence I conclude that Pakistan is in a bind - damn if I do, damn if I dont type....


 
and with Indian propaganda about Pakistan soon 100% Americans would have unfavorable opinion of Pakistan , Dam Indians are good in it

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## 53fd

I must say, this incident has consolidated my contempt for the US government's dirty imperialistic foreign policies. Yet, the government must not be equated with the American people, the latter for the most part being wonderful and warm hearted. We must not equate the actions of the government with the people, and I am sad that this incident is increasing the hatred towards the American people (when it should be solely targeting the actions of the government) in some people. I have heard people threatening the Americans living in Pakistan, and this is sad and disrespectful to the honest (and the absolute majority) Americans living in Pakistan. Not everyone is a Faisal Shahzad or a Raymond Davis, and Pakistanis should learn to control and 'regulate' their anger, and channel it wisely. And the media should not use this incident to increase their TV ratings.

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## 53fd

Although I must say, I hail the courage of Mehmood Shah Qureshi for standing up for the right thing even though he paid a price for it, after the pressure from vested interests (US government, Zardari, other stooges) on him, and because he was often portrayed in Pakistan of being a spineless stooge himself.


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## r3alist

we dont actually know all that much.

i would urge americans and pakistani's to think twice about what they KNOW before they speak, however 200 pages down the line that seems a bit pointless now, lol.

saying the motorcycled men were robbers is not a fact.

and also there is little clarity over the raymond's status, as far as i can tell.


however it is a fact what was recovered from this person looks highly suspicious.

and it also look as if he may have been in contact with terrorists within pakistan.
*
now americans, tell me, how does that look??*


aside from that issue this situation, at least on the surface, is beautifully poised.

americans need their man back it seems, and they are used to getting their way with a pliant govt.

on the other hand elements within pakistan are grinding their heels and resisting.

(BTW, thank you american "allies", nice to know you dont think twice about f'ing us about in order to get your way)


pakistan needs american aid to some extent, also pakistan needs america not to atleast refrain from being hostile

on the same token pakistani awam are incensed, americans needs supply routes and pakistan cannot cave in at this stage...........



whats the next move, whats the middle ground?


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## ajtr

> *Debate: Row over 'killer' diplomat*
> 
> In a tense stand-off, the US has demanded immediate release of American national Raymond Davis, held for gunning down two men in Lahore, amid reports that it had suspended all high-level dialogue with Pakistan over the issue. The US describes 36-year-old Davis as a diplomat who is a member of "technical and administrative staff" of its embassy in Islamabad, but some Pakistani media reports have suggested that the American might have been a CIA operative who shot down in a Lahore market two Pakistani men, who he said were trying to rob him. A new twist was added to the case when reports in the Pakistani media quoted a Pakistani intelligence official as saying that the two men killed by Davis on January 27 were were not armed robbers but intelligence agents assigned to trail him.TIMES NOW's Editor-in-Chief Arnab Goswami debates the issue with Lisa Curtis, Senior Fellow South Asia, Heritage Foundation; K C Singh, Former MEA Secretary and Tariq azeem, Former information Minister, Pakistan.



[video]http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4364810.cms[/video]


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## American Eagle

Being subjected to two armed men trying to hold Mr. Davis up is grounds for self defense. He was as part of his job required to have a gun, and obviously it was used in self defense, which would be the simple reason he had and use it when faced with two armed robbers.

Forgotten in over a week of dialogue here is the fact that Davis had just gotten a large amount of cash from a Lahore bank ATM, which obviously was observed by the robbers who then tailed him and tried to hold him up at gun point.


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## Hulk

From what I can see trying to be neutral.
This is what seems to have happened.
Davis shot dead two ISI agents because they got to know something.
He was not a Diplomat.
Zardari and government is working overtime to get him released and even kicked Qurashi out for that matter.
Punjab government is not cooperating with center and hence this issue is getting complicated.

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## secularbuster

American Eagle said:


> Being subjected to two armed men trying to hold Mr. Davis up is grounds for self defense. He was as part of his job required to have a gun, and obviously it was used in self defense, which would be the simple reason he had and use it when faced with two armed robbers.
> 
> Forgotten in over a week of dialogue here is the fact that Davis had just gotten a large amount of cash from a Lahore bank ATM, which obviously was observed by the robbers who then tailed him and tried to hold him up at gun point.



Thugs proclaim their innocence this way; innocent people depend on the court to proclaim their innocence. It shows that in Muslim states these americans are nothing short of thugs. Their attitude, talks, manners are that of mafia dons. I would like to ask this man how does he know that raymond did not act the way the beasts of Abu Gharib did? What would have happened if a Pakistani citizen acted this way in the US?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

indianrabbit said:


> From what I can see trying to be neutral.
> This is what seems to have happened.
> Davis shot dead two ISI agents because they got to know something.
> He was not a Diplomat.
> Zardari and government is working overtime to get him released and even kicked Qurashi out for that matter.
> Punjab government is not cooperating with center and hence this issue is getting complicated.


 
For Gods sakes those guys were not ISI!!!! ISI dnt carry 4 rounds in local made pistols without any protection or Surveillanc equipment.

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## American Eagle

What many of us here in the West ask, and I ask as one who served nearly two years with the old Karachi based US Embassy in the 1960s...and I was wounded in the Rann of Kutch by Indian tank fire blowing a truck coming towards our Land Rover into us...why do you not understand that Mr. Davis was faced with armed robbery and defended himself. Pure and simple.

Pakistan and the US are supposed to be allies...but I see a great many folks on this site who say openly they hope such events as the Davis failed stick up will cause the Government of Pakistan to fall.

All this tells me, as an "old" Pakitani hand (I am age 71 now) that rivalries between ethnic and economic strata inside Pakistan leaves it as a nation dividedn within itself.

Diplomatic Immunity is a matter of Internation, not national, law and treaties which the GOP until now has refused to admit to or honor. When any nation ignores and refuses to abide by international laws then how and why would anyone anymore want to do business or help Pakistan?

Personal and national dignity have nothing to do with a failed stick up by known robbers. This is all about causing trouble to try to break up the nation of Pakistan...my view, which as one who has lived and worked there...I am entitled to.

Please see separate Thread under Current Affairs regarding misuse of illegal arms all over Pakistan, to see that I for one find it "amazing" for anyone to fault Mr. Davis for bearing arms which are required by the US Dept. of State as part of his diplomatic duties and responsibilies, which the US Embassy and US State Dept. fairly and reasonably communicated over three months ago to the Pakistani Foreign Office...which has admitted that they took too long and failed to reply to acknolwedge Mr. Davis entire status as one with full Diplomatic Immunity.

Your post from Bangladesh does not indicate you have inside Pakistan first hand knowledge but you still have access to this site and more importantly to the whole world's media in this matter of failed attempted armed robbery by two armed Pakistanis in Lahore of Mr. Davis...shortly after same two robbers successfully robbed two Pakistani gentlement of their cell phones and a large amount of cash.

When you choose to make up your view point but ignore the facts of record with the police and as offered factually by the US Department of State you come across as oblivious of the hard facts and merely wish to find faulty or place blame. A failed stick up is a very serious matter of lack of law and order.

Have a good week and good luck in Bangladesh where IMF, Wordl Bank, and US fiscal support continue to help you in perhaps the poorest nation in the world at this time. I and we wish you better days and a healthier, happier, and more economically successful future.


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## American Eagle

It was a simple case of attempted armed robbery by two documented Pakitani crooks/robbers which went astray when Mr. Davis dared to try to denfend himself.

This ISI stuff is pure fiction. Whoever in the world started it simply wants to confuse the fact that a US diplomat with full Diplomatic Immunity defended himself from guns pointed at him attempted armed robbery.

Let's not waste time with the ISI stuff as there is no finding by any media worldwide or inside Pakistan to that effect. Just trouble mongering to bring up the ISI in this context.


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## Developereo

American Eagle said:


> why do you not understand that Mr. Davis was faced with armed robbery and defended himself.


 
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense that they tried to hold up Davis -- even after the police report has refuted the claim?

Even if we grant you that they were robbers -- a charge not proven -- it still does not prove Davis' claim that they threatened him with a gun.


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## American Eagle

...a judge ordered the man's detention extended for 14 days and asked the Pakistani government to clarify if he has diplomatic immunity. 

It would be helpful if folks pay attention to the fact that the court there has from day one required, as in ordered, the GOP Foreign Office to do it's job and state it's position on the US Department of State, US Ambassador and Mr. Davis claiming Diplomatic Immunity...which is based on Davis factually having a US Diplomatic Passport, a proper Paksitan VISA good until June 2012, and upon International Law and Treaties as outlined many times by the US State Department officially.





VCheng said:


> I believe, as I have been saying all along, that ALL sides need to calm down their rhetoric, and wait for the process to play out in a rational manner. The stakes are high no doubt, but adding frenzy to the mix will not achieve anything useful for anybody.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

@Eagle= U dont trust us, u act like a bully, u sactioned us nany times , u have a Discriminatory Policy with reguards to us ............ nd u call us an ally.

Thanks u very much..... We r better off without being ur ally.


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## American Eagle

But it is a fact that the two robbers failed in their guns drawn attempt to rob Mr. Davis. The paramount fact, then, is he properly claimed and claims Diplomatic Immunity, which the courts want to have their own GOP verify, as if DI is understood then Mr. Davis has to promptly be removed from Pakistan for good, which would be the legally appropriate under international law conventions and treaties in his case.

I repeat these facts as there are newer contributers hourly and daily who either don't know the basic facts or who want to whip up a lynch mob mentality which of course Pakistan does not deserve as an outcome.


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## American Eagle

Below quotes are from the NEW YORK TIMES, Sunday, Feb. 13, 2011 and reflect the facts vs. various contradictory statements from Pakistani and Lahore officials:


*A lawyer for Mr. Davis, Hassam Qadir, asked Judge Aneeq Anwar Chaudry of the Municipal Court to adhere to the principles of diplomatic immunity and release Mr. Davis. The State Department has repeatedly said that he is protected by diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention and must be released immediately. 

In a statement on Friday night, the senior American official posted to Lahore, Carmela Conroy, who heads the consulate there, described the shooting as &#8220;a tragedy.&#8221; At the same time, she criticized the Pakistani authorities for ignoring what she called eyewitness accounts and physical evidence, including the police statement that one of the assailants carried a loaded gun. Mr. Davis was entitled to &#8220;full immunity from criminal prosecution,&#8221; and under the rules of diplomacy should be freed immediately, she said. *

*Please be aware that this same court has an Order outstanding to the Foreign Office of the Government of Pakistan for them to tell him their view of the US State Dept. claiming fully Diplomatic Immunity for Mr. Davis.*

Here is a partial quote from the WASHINGTON POST Sunday, Feb. 13, 2011, which gives further information:

*The men's bodies were found with five cell phones, two pistols and currency from Pakistan, Japan, Oman and the Philippines, according to the report, which does not indicate where those items came from. *

The men's bodies refers to the two robbers who put upon Mr. Davis with their pistols drawn against him.


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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> Why do you keep repeating this nonsense that they tried to hold up Davis -- even after the police report has refuted the claim?


Which police report? The first one in which the police immediately asserted they killed men were known robbers, or the police report in court after the incident had become politicized so no official _dared_ stand up for the Americans out of fear of violence or a maimed career? Isn't this similar to what happened after Mumbai, when the local Pakistani police quickly determined the home village of the surviving attacker (link) but were then compelled to clam up for months?



American Eagle said:


> ...Diplomatic Immunity is a matter of Internation, not national, law and treaties which the GOP until now has refused to admit to or honor -


Perhaps now these Pakistanis feel that now they have nukes they can ignore such things, or make their own rules, or re-write the existing ones? I consider this evidence they don't think like free men but are stuck in a master/slave mentality. The powers-that-be in Pakistan must be very arbitrary and corrupt for people to think this way. Rule of law, as I see it, started decaying in the very first years after Jinnah passed away. 

To the Pakistanis here, I'll say this: principles are what you fight for. A forum discussion is a kind of verbal battle. The principles Pakistanis demonstrate they are upholding are not kind or pleasant or just ones. When Benjamin Franklin emerged from the Philadelphia Convention and was asked what kind of government the new United States of America would have he answered, "A Republic, _if you can keep it."_ Doing so demands a lot more from a citizen then merely marching with a mob to uphold the latest Five-Minute Hate; it requires the willingness to argue, justify, and strive for democratic leadership by contesting the will of your peers. Messy, but if you can't do that either out of fear or modesty or temper, then either you don't have what it takes to be a good citizen or your institutions are structured incorrectly and need revision. How many of you have held up the principles of international law which _demand_ Davis' release?

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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> Which police report? The first one in which the police immediately asserted they killed men were known robbers, or the police report in court after the incident had become politicized so no official _dared_ stand up for the Americans out of fear of violence or a maimed career? Isn't this similar to what happened after Mumbai, when the local Pakistani police quickly determined the home village of the surviving attacker (link) but were then compelled to clam up for months?


 
Your penchant to divert into unrelated cases is getting tiresome. By your logic, since OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, we should write off the entire American judicial system.

If you have no information relevant to this case, please say so and avoid derailing the discussion. Questioning the integrity and professionalism of the police officials may win you cheap accolades with some people, but it only serves to highlight your racism and disdain for the Pakistani nation.

As regards this case, the first police report only repeated Mr. Davis' statement as such. The latest police report, delivered after investigating Mr. Davis' allegations, pours cold water over his self-defence claims. Regadless of whether these guys were robber, ISI agents or office clerks, there is no evidence that anyone threatened Davis with a gun.

Just because some people keep repeating this mantra like some sort of religious chant, will not make random facts appear out of thin air.

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## Punjabbi Munda

Popular Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, 37, was detained at the Indira Gandhi International Airport here on Sunday for allegedly carrying a huge amount of undeclared foreign currency. The Bollywood playback singer is a nephew of Pakistani singing legend Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. We are questioning Rahat Ali Khans event manager to get to the bottom of the matter and after getting all the facts, we will decide on the future course of action, said RK Sharma, additional director general, Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI).

Khan was taking an Emirates flight to Lahore when DRI officials intercepted him. Khan allegedly didn't declare the foreign currency at any immigration counter, a senior official said. Both Khan and his manager were detained and questioned at the airport by DRI and customs officials.

Both Khan and Maruf were carrying $50,000 (R23 lakh) each in their check-in baggage and Marufs cabin baggage also had $24,000, said the official. Apart from this, they also had $18,000 worth of bank cheques, he said.

According to the Customs Act, passengers arriving in India can bring back $5,000 in cash and $5,000 in travellers cheques or drafts without having to make any declaration. Thus the total amount that can be brought in without requiring declaration is $10,000.

If a passenger carries more than this amount, he or she has to prove that it's been acquired through legal means.

Singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan held at Delhi airport with $50,000 - Hindustan Times

___________________________________________

The detention of Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan at the Delhi airport has caused concern back home in Islamabad. Pakistan Interior Minister Rehman Malik has stepped in personally to look into the singer's detention over undeclared foreign currency.

Malik called up the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi and spoke with the envoy, Shahid Malik.

The minister asked for details about Rahat's detention at the Indira Gandhi International Airport. He has also asked the Pakistani High Commissioner to monitor the matter closely. 

As per a statement issued last night, the Pakistan Interior Minister had said that he was looking into the matter.

Rahat was held at the Delhi airport on Sunday night for illegally carrying undeclared currency worth US $ 1.24 lakh. He had arrived at the national capital on a flight from Karachi when he was intercepted by personnel from the Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI).His manager Chitresh Srivastava was also held.

The foreign currency was not declared to Customs officials after the immigration checks, a DRI official said. The troupe was on in its way to Lahore via Dubai by an Emirates flight, the official added.

"The DRI officers found altogether US $1, 24,000 which is equivalent to about Rs. 60 lakhs. US $24,000 were found from the baggage carried by Rahat while the remaining US $50,000 each were found from the baggage of two troupe members," Central Board of Excise and Customs Chairman S Dutt Majumdar said.

The recovered foreign currency included US $10,000 and US $8,600 in demand drafts and some Travellers Cheques, a DRI official said.

The singer will be produced in court today.

He was earlier too involved in a controversy when organisers of a concert in Gurgaon filed a police complaint against him in July last year for his failure to turn up for a show.

Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, the 37-year-old nephew of legendary Pakistani singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan has crooned several Bollywood chartbusters including the song 'Dil To Bachcha Hai Ji' from the movie 'Ishqiya' for which he won the Filmfare Award for Best Male Playback Singer this year.

Pakistan steps into Rahat Fateh Ali Khan's detention case


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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> Your penchant to divert into unrelated cases -


You do not deny that both Mumbai and Davis are politically hot cases so why would you claim they are unrelated as to how the Pakistan's justice system functions in each?



> By your logic, since OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, we should write off -


_Non-sequitur_. OJ did not have any form of diplomatic immunity so there was no doubt that a murder case belonged in the courts.



> there is no evidence that anyone threatened Davis with a gun.


What do these contested facts have to do with diplomatic immunity? Nothing at all, yes?


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> You do not deny that both Mumbai and Davis are politically hot cases so why would you claim they are unrelated as to how the Pakistan's justice system functions in each?



Because they are unrelated. Just because you make up random connections to divert attention doesn't mean its valid.

Like I said, if you have facts to back up your claims, please provide them. If there is evidence that Davis' life was in danger, I wll change my mind. So far it doesn't appear to be the case.



Solomon2 said:


> _Non-sequitur_. OJ did not have any form of diplomatic immunity so there was no doubt that a murder case belonged in the courts.
> 
> What do these contested facts have to do with diplomatic immunity? Nothing at all, yes?


 
My statement, and your response, was about Davis' life being in danger, not diplomatic immunity. Nice to see that you are dancing to change the subject.


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## American Eagle

My statements are all 100% from latest major US press reports on the Raymond Davis Diplomatic Immunity cause.

Another writer makes comparisons to the Mumbai episode. He is as valid to discuss that parallel example as you or anyone else being free to bring up ISI or other topics which to me are a diversion.


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## MastanKhan

American Eagle said:


> Being subjected to two armed men trying to hold Mr. Davis up is grounds for self defense. He was as part of his job required to have a gun, and obviously it was used in self defense, which would be the simple reason he had and use it when faced with two armed robbers.
> 
> Forgotten in over a week of dialogue here is the fact that Davis had just gotten a large amount of cash from a Lahore bank ATM, which obviously was observed by the robbers who then tailed him and tried to hold him up at gun point.


 
Sir,

Mr Davis's job may have been what it maybe---he maybe authorized by the U S to carry a gun----but what it comes down to is----he had no authority to carry one in pakistan---.. U S laws are not superior to pakistani laws---only in show of power.

He was an illegal---and all this issue about diplomatic stuff is an after thought---. 

Setting that aside---the man was on a subversive mission in pakistan---or in search of al qaeda oper---a single operator---basically working on his own authority---without a team---casually dressed in a regular checkered shirt and faded jeans---must have been real confident to operate on his own---must have been doing what he was doing for awhile to have that kind of confidence to be all alone in a totally hostile environment---which proves that he was no ordinary operator.

Now---coming down to the shooting---two criminals---ultimately they met their match.

Should Raymond be let go---in due time---all this chest thumping by pakistanis is not good---Like Ch Shujaat says to Nawaz Sharif---"GIVE SO MUCH PAIN SO THAT WHEN IT IS YOUR TURN TO TAKE IT---YOU DON'T SQUIRM"---.

Pakistanis must remember---because out of habbit----in a few days---you won't give a sh---it about it---neither you have the resolve nor you have the tenacity to make something out of yourself---.

So----make your trade and let Davis go to his home and you get whom you want---.

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## jahangeer yousaf

now whatever the case punjab police is gonna sui him...they have proved that it was purely attempt murder case ....... and none of the lawyer is gonna fight for davis .......and now about immunity after the statement of x-foreign minister...that was all in favour of pakistan


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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> Because they are unrelated.


Please explain how can you be so confident that the same kind of pressure wasn't applied to the police in the Davis case as in the Kasab case.



> If there is evidence that Davis' life was in danger -


Pakistan signed a treaty about how to handle such cases when one party has diplomatic immunity. Now you are telling me that you do not find it your duty to uphold that. While there is great doubt that Davis murdered (as opposed to killing in self-defense) Pakistani citizens, there is no doubt at all that you and people who think like you intend to murder Pakistan's national honor.


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## Developereo

American Eagle said:


> My statements are all 100% from latest major US press reports on the Raymond Davis Diplomatic Immunity cause.



US media is mostly parroting US State Department statements. The latter is not involved in on-the-ground investigations and is only repeating Davis' own assetions without corroboration.

There are two aspects to this case: diplomatic immunity, and the facts of the incident itself.
The two are unrelated and can be ascertained in parallel.



American Eagle said:


> Another writer makes comparisons to the Mumbai episode. He is as valid to discuss that parallel example as you or anyone else being free to bring up ISI or other topics which to me are a diversion.


 
ISI, Mumbai, cruise missiles are all irrelevant distractions that do not belong in this debate.



Solomon2 said:


> Please explain how can you be so confident that the same kind of pressure wasn't applied to the police in the Davis case as in the Kasab case.



No, it is you who needs to prove your hypothetical assertion.



Solomon2 said:


> Pakistan signed a treaty about how to handle such cases when one party has diplomatic immunity. Now you are telling me that you do not find it your duty to uphold that. While there is great doubt that Davis murdered Pakistani citizens, there is no doubt at all that you and people who think like you intend to murder Pakistan's national honor.


 
Setting aside the melodrama, there are two parallel aspects to this case as I stated above: diplomatic immunity and the incident itself. Both can be investigated in parallel.

Pakistan has not accepted his diplomatic immunity and the US has issued so many conflicting statements about him, it's clear the matter is not so clear cut.

If this incident had happened in a rich country, the US would have waived his immunity, assuming he has one, in order to show that it values the rule of law.

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## Donatello

He has diplomatic immunity if he is a diplomat.

Which he is not, as he is "A consultant of US embassy"....while somewhere else they say, he is "Technical Staff"

No where they mention that he is a diplomat.

Secondly, with the level of security threat to all American, because of obvious reasons, in Pakistan, means diplomats would be given protocol by the host state. That wasn't the case. This guy was merely walking around as if nothing is going, then shoots two people with a gun, which was unlawful in the first place.


I hope he is punished in Pakistan.

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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> There are two aspects to this case: diplomatic immunity, and the facts of the incident itself.
> The two are unrelated and can be ascertained in parallel.


Wrong. Under international law it is not permitted to hold a person with diplomatic immunity in custody while facts are ascertained.



> Pakistan has not accepted his diplomatic immunity and the US has issued so many conflicting statements -


None of the U.S. statements I've seen are in conflict about his immune status. 



> If this incident had happened in a rich country, the US would have waived his immunity, assuming he has one, in order to show that it values the rule of law.


Upholding diplomatic immunity *is* a demonstration that one values the rule of law. I know Pakistan's own elite is corrupt and gets away with a lot of illegal stuff. I know that breeds resentment in people's hearts. 

But I also know that it's human (and wrong) to twist that frustration and attempt to redirect the violence it produces to a scapegoat, a "safe" target that doesn't fight back. If you are civilized and patriotic you want to protect Pakistan's national honor, and if you want moral principle to mean something other than selfishness you must practice self-denial, so isn't upholding the principle of diplomatic immunity the course _you_ must take?


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> Wrong. Under international law it is not permitted to hold a person with diplomatic immunity in custody while facts are ascertained.



Except that the status of the immunity itself is under question and, while it is being ascertained, the other investigation must proceed. Time is always of the essence.



Solomon2 said:


> None of the U.S. statements I've seen are in conflict about his immune status.



First he was claimed to be an ordinary "employee", then an "administrative and IT staff" member, then "consular employee".



Solomon2 said:


> Upholding diplomatic immunity *is* a demonstration that one values the rule of law.


 
It is up to Pakistan, not the US, to determine his immunity and, last I checked, the Pakistani FO had found otherwise.



Solomon2 said:


> I know Pakistan's own elite is corrupt and gets away with a lot of illegal stuff. I know that breeds resentment in people's hearts.



Your continued penchant to veer off-optic into generalizations does not help your argument.

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## tallboy123

Now nail him hard

if proved guilty,conficate his properties..


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## IndianArmy

If he is found guilty then he must be ashamed of himself, His Uncle was Such a Great man and a Musician.... I am an all time fan of Nusrat fateh ali Khan...

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## ajtr

IndianArmy said:


> If he is found guilty then he must be ashamed of himself, His father was Such a Great man and a Musician.... I am an all time fan of Nusrat fateh ali Khan...


Why he should be ashamed and wat for.

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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> Why he should be ashamed and wat for.


 
Go Figure it out why.....

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## brahmastra

any legal matter expert know what is the punishment for that crime?


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## ajtr

IndianArmy said:


> Go Figure it out why.....


I'm not a MI person to figure it out and blame a person unnecessarily like what was done with Captain R.S. Rathaur by MI folks in samba spy scandal also like what was done with B.K.Subbarao


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> I'm not a MI person to figure it out and blame a person unnecessarily like what was done with Captain R.S. Rathaur by MI folks in samba spy scandal.


 
Well You dont need to be an MI person to figure it out, a 3rd std Brain and a 4th grade Body is Enough to sit and think....


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## third eye

ajtr said:


> I'm not a MI person to figure it out and blame a person unnecessarily like what was done with Captain R.S. Rathaur by MI folks in samba spy scandal also like what was done with B.K.Subbarao


 
This has nothing to do with MI.

A futile attempt to drag in other unconnected issues.

Why on earth was he or his group carrying so much money into India ?


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## ajtr

third eye said:


> This has nothing to do with MI.
> 
> A futile attempt to drag in other unconnected issues.
> 
> Why on earth was he or his group carrying so much money into India ?


explained below..................



IndianArmy said:


> Well You dont need to be an MI person to figure it out, a 3rd std Brain and a 4th grade Body is Enough to sit and think....


Like a 2nd std brain is used to plant evidences to prove innoccent people guilty from police level to way up to MI.Its business as usual in india...Like wats generally famous about indian law enforcement agencies,"sirji,ji bas aap to gunah bata dijiye,kubool karana hamara kaam hai.Jo kiye honge woh bhi aur jo nahi kiye honge woh bhi.(sir,just tell the crime under which u want person to get implicated,its our job to get the confession.For all those crime which he had committed and also those which the person has not committed.)"...

......Jai Ho indian law enforcement.................


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## fallstuff

So was he in India to do concert tour ? I am curious how much he gets paid for an appearance ?


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> Like a 2nd std brain is used to plant evidences to prove innoccent people guilty from police level to way up to MI.Its business as usual in india...Like wats generally famous about indian law enforcement agencies,"sirji,ji bas aap to gunah bata dijiye,kubool karana hamara kaam hai.Jo kiye honge woh bhi aur jo nahi kiye honge woh bhi.(sir,just tell the crime under which u want person to get implicated,its our job to get the confession.For all those crime which he had committed and also those which the person has not committed.)"...
> 
> ......Jai Ho indian law enforcement.................


 

Koi baat nahi beta, Jab aap Padna Seekh Loge tab mere se baat karna, Tum to bewafa mujh pe dosh de rahe ho jab ki maine kuch kaha hi nahi... a Confession is made when Culprit is made to feel Guilty, And Indian Law is Just doing that, He has Been Found with stockpiles of Un declared Foreign Currency , If only You knew what Un declared means I could Explain you, But You are blind enough to go Anti India before even reading the article... Sorry I have no Interest in Entertaining people like you....


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## Punjabbi Munda

fallstuff said:


> So was he in India to do concert tour ? I am curious how much he gets paid for an appearance ?


 
He is mostly in India,he is a 'bollywood playback singer' as mentioned in the article and has loads of fans here,including me.


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## third eye

ajtr said:


> ......*Jai Ho indian law enforcement.*................


 
Yes ...Jai Ho for nabbing blokes like these slinking in with abnormal amounts of money and not being educated enough to read the rules & declare them.

Actually, how would he declare the large amount he carried - he would have to explain how he got them in the 1st place.

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## ajtr

IndianArmy said:


> Koi baat nahi beta, Jab aap Padna Seekh Loge tab mere se baat karna, Tum to bewafa mujh pe dosh de rahe ho jab ki maine kuch kaha hi nahi... a Confession is made when Culprit is made to feel Guilty, And Indian Law is Just doing that, He has Been Found with stockpiles of Un declared Foreign Currency , If only You knew what Un declared means I could Explain you, But You are blind enough to go Anti India before even reading the article... Sorry I have no Interest in Entertaining people like you....


money can also be planted like those of the evidences which were planted on RS rathod by MI.Regarding confessions ..give me a break...99% times cases based on confessions in police custody were simply thrown out of courts.And its not a big deal to get confession in india the inhumane way law enforcement people get those confessions whole world knows about it.


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## LaBong

Ok what's the public mood regarding this issue? 

And I disagree to whatever majority of you saying. 

I'm a rebel!


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> money can also be planted like those of the evidences which were planted on RS rathod by MI.Regarding confessions ..give me a break...99% times cases based on confessions in police custody were simply thrown out of courts.And its not a big deal to get confession in india the inhumane way law enforcement people get those confessions whole world knows about it.


 
So You are saying India Purposely Put Foreign Currency in his Bag without his Knowledge , And Took him to jail, Made him Confess to prove him guilty?? And World Knows about it that Nusrat is Innocent and Indians Purposely Booked him... Well Dear I guess you made me go High with your dose of Information and I would not be needing my daily quota of drinks today

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## ajtr

third eye said:


> Yes ...Jai Ho for nabbing blokes like these slinking in with abnormal amounts of money and not being educated enough to read the rules & declare them.
> 
> Actually, how would he declare the large amount he carried - he would have to explain how he got them in the 1st place.


ya truly jai ho for causing agony and suffering to an innocent person who is a revered guest in ur country.


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## Ammyy

ajtr said:


> ya truly jai ho for causing agony and suffering to an* innocent person* who is a revered guest in ur country.


 
Are you stupid or what ??? how can he become innocent ???

He breaks law and wht you want to prove ?????


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## ajtr

IndianArmy said:


> So You are saying India Purposely Put Foreign Currency in his Bag without his Knowledge , And Took him to jail, Made him Confess to prove him guilty?? And World Knows about it that Nusrat is Innocent and Indians Purposely Booked him... Well Dear I guess you made me go High with your dose of Information and I would not be needing my daily quota of drinks today


that is a 90% possibility with the track record of indian enforcement in planting evidences.And how can u pronounce him guilty without court issuing ruing on the case.


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## ajtr

DRDO said:


> Are you stupid or what ??? how can he become innocent ???
> 
> He breaks law and wht you want to prove ?????


 *A person is innocent until proved guilty in court of law.*


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## Ammyy

ajtr said:


> *A person is innocent until proved guilty in court of law.*


 
No person will be accused not innocent .... Remember that


And from when you start to believe in Indian Hindu Bharati courts ????


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> that is a 90% possibility with the track record of indian enforcement in planting evidences.And how can u pronounce him guilty without court issuing ruing on the case.


 
No no no, You dont need to make it 90% to make your conversation look neat, You can make it 100%, He is Innocent happy??


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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> ya truly jai ho for causing agony and suffering to an innocent person who is a revered guest in *ur *country.



Jai Ho... It is *my *country and I will support the authority. Please don't come here supporting people playing with kala dhan. BS revered guest... he is coming to make money... plain and simple.

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## jayron

ajtr said:


> that is a 90% possibility with the track record of indian enforcement in planting evidences.And how can u pronounce him guilty without court issuing ruing on the case.


 
Are you supporting him because he is a non Indian or because he is a muslim? 

Anyway, most of Bollywood has underworld connection. With the key underworld figures like Dawood Ibramin living in Karachi, I wouldn't be surprised if they are involved too. Only thing is, if they are involved, the amount will be much bigger.


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## ajtr

DRDO said:


> No person will be accused not innocent .... Remember that
> 
> 
> And from when you start to believe in Indian Hindu Bharati courts ????



................


> Article 11(1)- Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense


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## ajtr

IndianArmy said:


> No no no, You dont need to make it 90% to make your conversation look neat, You can make it 100%, He is Innocent happy??


ya i'll make it 100% so DRI can save its face later on when its proved wrong.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Almost everyone is being carried away by two deaths---the most important question is----what was Davis doing all alone---by himslef in the badlands---it is a well known fact that there are illegal weapons in pakistan---it is also well known that punjab govt is pro fundamentalist in a way---it is also known that foreigners are a target of the jihadi groups etc etc---. There have been instances of kidnapping of foreigners in pakistan afew times---so what is a loaded special forces guy doing on the streets of lahore all by himself---.

This argument of simple diplomatic immunity by our two esteemed members on this board doesnot hold much strength---. Even if those two who died were thieves and criminals---there are other issues that have cropped up---was Davis involved in subversive activities as well----what information was gleaned from his person and from his cell phone----whom had he called and who was on his contact list---.

Even the most independant judiciary---that of the united states is always looking for guidance from the state department under similiar circumstances. It is not upto the judge to make the decision----but upto the district attorney of the county / the attorney general of the state if a case needs to be pursuded. 

What we know on the public forums and through american media may not be the real thing----. The american media can hardly be trusted at times---They can turn the news around and put a spin on it at their discretion and make the dark of night look like day light.

The thing is that SH-IT happens and the best laid plans get scr-ewed up due to unseen and unexpected turn of events---. Who would have thought that a couple of street criminals would create a commotion between countries that the govt of one country fear losing its position.

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## ajtr

StingRoy said:


> Jai Ho... It is *my *country and I will support the authority. Please don't come here supporting people playing with kala dhan. BS revered guest... he is coming to make money... plain and simple.


If u support idia for its wrong policies then y cry foul at various scams.


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## IndianArmy

ajtr said:


> ya i'll make it 100% so DRI can save its face later on when its proved wrong.


 
Probably it would be easier to edit your posts when it goes the other way.... good luck...


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## StingRoy

ajtr said:


> If u support idia for its wrong policies then y cry foul at various scams.


 
I said I support the authority ... may have different opinion about policies since they are primarily party driven, but rule of the land is something that everyone should stand by. This is a clear case of someone breaking the law and as a citizen I demand an explanation from him and support in the authorities actions.


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## ajtr

jayron said:


> Are you supporting him because he is a non Indian or because he is a muslim?


I'm supporting him coz not even i i but whole wrold knows how indian police and other agencies work to get confession and plant evidences to prove an innocent person guilty.



> Anyway, most of Bollywood has underworld connection.


then shut down whole bollywood and arrests its indian stars why harras only a rahat .only coz he is a pakistani.Clean the dirt in india first then blame others.


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## third eye

ajtr said:


> ya truly jai ho for causing agony and suffering to an innocent person *who is a revered guest in ur country*.


 
He would have been a guest had he come sight seeing of visiting Ajmer etc.

He is here on a commercial venture & the law applies .

In fact there is good chance he makes more money from his commercial ventures than back home.


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## mehru

Ok so what's the penalty for carrying undeclared foreign currency in India? Some sort of fine?


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## jayron

ajtr said:


> I'm supporting him coz not even i i but whole wrold knows how indian police and other agencies work to get confession and plant evidences to prove an innocent person guilty.



You mean to say Pakistanis don't commit any crime? How are you convinced he did not bring the undeclared money ? If you are not going to believe when he got caught red handed, nothing is going to convince you. 


> then shut down whole bollywood and arrests its indian stars why harras only a rahat .only coz he is a pakistani.Clean the dirt in india first then blame others.


 
That is a different issue all together. It does not justify Rahat smuggling in cash.


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## jayron

self delete


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## Humanist

*Indian agency was following him from long time because he was going in an out of the country very often.. Indian police has doubt that he is carring money for someone else out of the country on regular basis.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

what can you expect from indian hospitality; but he chose to go there and should have known the implications of it

sound judgement always goes a long way, especially in a country that is totally alien

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Humanist said:


> *Indian agency was following him from long time because he was going in an out of the country very often.. Indian police has doubt that he is carring money for someone else out of the country on regular basis.*


 
he's an ISI agent; you didn't know?

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## mehru

Humanist said:


> *Indian agency was following him from long time because he was going in an out of the country very often.. Indian police has doubt that he is carring money for someone else out of the country on regular basis.*


 
What do you mean for someone else? He is an artist for Gods sake.


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## Gene

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what can you expect from indian hospitality; but he chose to go there and should have known the implications of it
> 
> sound judgement always goes a long way, especially in a country that is totally alien


 
better suggest this to your singers "stay away from india",it is a evil nation..


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## Paan Singh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> he's an ISI agent; you didn't know?


 
yes we know him thats y he is under investigation
btw u ppl know the reason and he did this once before....


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## Paan Singh

Rahat Fateh Ali Khan quizzed over undeclared foreign currency, Pak steps in

New Delhi: A day after Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan was arrested at Delhi's Indira Gandhi International Airport for possessing illegal foreign currency, the Department of Revenue Intelligence is questioning him to find out where the money came from and why it was not declared.

The 37-year-old singer is expected to be produced in court today. 

Meanwhile, concerned over his arrest, Pakistan's Interior Minister Rehman Malik has asked the High Commission in Delhi to keep a close eye on proceedings. Three embassy officials are at the Directorate of Revenue Intelligence in Delhi, where Rahat is being questioned.

Pakistani officials got in touch with Indian High Commission in Islamabad and have asked to be kept informed about the developments in the case.
Rahat Fateh Ali Khan was held at the Delhi airport on Sunday night for carrying undeclared currency worth $ 1, 24, 000. He was flying out to Dubai when he was intercepted by personnel from the Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI). His manager Chitresh Srivastava was also detained. 

The foreign currency was not declared to Customs officials after the immigration checks, a DRI official said. 

"The DRI officers found altogether $ 1, 24,000 which is equivalent to about Rs. 60 lakh. $ 24,000 were found from the baggage carried by Rahat while the remaining $ 50,000 each were found from the baggage of two troupe members," Central Board of Excise and Customs Chairman S Dutt Majumdar said.


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## Punjabbi Munda

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what can you expect from indian hospitality; but he chose to go there and should have known the implications of it
> 
> sound judgement always goes a long way, especially in a country that is totally alien


 
So if a person is carrying such a big amount of undeclared money,we should let him go?just because Abu Zolfiqar wouldn't be too happy?


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## Ammyy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what can you expect from indian hospitality; but he chose to go there and should have known the implications of it
> 
> sound judgement always goes a long way, especially in a country that is totally alien


 
So tell your artist not to come our evil country


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## Abu Zolfiqar

why should I? It's not my business. Actually, he should have been aware about hindustan's capital controls; which exist in many other countries. indian in particular have draconian capital controls. 

probably it was his money which he earned from concerts and other activities; i dont think he has any investments in that damned country

again, he should have been a bit wiser and known the implications of such a visit

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## SpArK

Selective justification of breaking of law for self satisfaction.

Wonder if he had broken the rules in Islamabad airport carrying undisclosed money which is against law in Pakistan, these voices which cries hospitality blah blah blahs would have thanked authorities for doing their duties. Hypocrisy , now moves to another level. WOWWWWW....

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## twoplustwoisfour

Humanist said:


> *Indian agency was following him from long time because he was going in an out of the country very often.. Indian police has doubt that he is carring money for someone else out of the country on regular basis.*


 


mehru said:


> What do you mean for someone else? He is an artist for Gods sake.


 
Ye to Sarfarosh movie ki script hai by god.


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## greatsequence

Most probably payments made to him by record companies but in order to evade tax paid him privately.


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## punit

> money can also be planted like those of the evidences which were planted on RS rathod by MI.Regarding confessions ..give me a break...99% times cases based on confessions in police custody were simply thrown out of courts.And its not a big deal to get confession in india the inhumane way law enforcement people get those confessions whole world knows about it.



why this **** is acting like a cat on hot tin .. so far the only news coming is of undeclared money and our true and only indian is ready with multiple gossip theories.


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## Devil Soul

IndianArmy said:


> If he is found guilty then he must be ashamed of himself, His father was Such a Great man and a Musician.... I am an all time fan of Nusrat fateh ali Khan...


 
do u even know what ur talking about? Nusrat Fetah Ali Khan (late) was his uncle not father.. this show how well informed u r ..
Peace


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## F86 Saber

So how will this end? I will analyze the scenarios,

1. GOP will cave in and release Raymond on diplomatic immunity.
This may turn out to be the possibility after all because as emotional as we can be, Pakistan did sign the Vienna agreement. This may result in a political situation equivalent to the Egyptian scenario and USA will loose whatever "Friendly" image it is trying to create in front of the Pakistani public.
May also piss of the army and the situation can turn very ugly for the PPP Govt.

2. He will be charged with the murder of two Pakistani citizen and carrying suspicious items, will be jailed or hanged.
In this case we may have to face a very tough opposition from USA and considering how deep the roots of their involvement in Pakistan are, i frankly don't see it happening. But if it does, it may trigger some kind of retaliatory response from USA which may not come at once and may not be open (because USA is relying heavily on Pakistan for their Afghanistan operation), but US will take revenge in one form or another.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

MastanKhan said:


> there are other issues that have cropped up---was Davis involved in subversive activities as well----what information was gleaned from his person and from his cell phone----whom had he called and who was on his contact list---.


There is precedent, specifically in Pakistan, where diplomatic immunity did not hold in the case of 'subversive activities' against the host State.

I am referring to the Pakistani raid of the Iraqi embassy in the seventies (IIRC), when the Iraqi Embassy (with the assistance of the Soviet Union) was suspected of storing large amounts of explosives, weapons and cash for distribution to Baluch separatists in Pakistan.

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## ashok321

> 1. GOP will cave in and release Raymond on diplomatic immunity.



Very likely because Pakistan does not want to loose US support.



> 2. He will be charged with the murder of two Pakistani citizen and carrying suspicious items, will be jailed or hanged.



Highly unlikly because Qureshie was sacrificed to open a way for RD`s departure.

Its a matter of few days before you see him released.....no wonder.

BTW, people have stopped posting Luchman-Najam Sethi videos (my fav) are their no videos no more???

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## AstanoshKhan

*Detained US official &#8216;in telephone contact with terrorist groups&#8217;*

By Rob Crilly, Islamabad 4:54PM GMT 10 Feb 2011

*A US official, detained in Pakistan after shooting dead two men, had made contact with Taliban-linked extremists in the country&#8217;s lawless, tribal region, according to details of phone records leaked by the police.*







Sources close to the investigation said Raymond Davis, 36, had made a series of telephone calls to South Waziristan, a tribal area along the border with Afghanistan synonymous with militant activity.

The mystery surrounding Davis has deepened since he was arrested in Lahore two weeks ago. He has told police officers he shot dead two men in self defence.

*The US insists he is a diplomat based at the embassy in Islamabad and should be granted immunity.

However, security sources have leaked a series of details suggesting that he may have had a clandestine role.

&#8220;His phone records clearly show he was in contact with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, for what reason we can only speculate,&#8221; said a police officer, referring to a terrorist group with close links to the Pakistani Taliban.*

*Hamid Gul, a former head of Pakistan&#8217;s spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, said the phone calls suggested he was a secret agent.

&#8220;This is a classic intelligence technique &#8211; to get inside the head of the enemy,&#8221; he said.

Davis, who is due to appear in court on Friday, is a former special forces soldier who left the US army in 2003 after 10 years of service, according to Pentagon records.*

Mobile phone footage obtained by the Dunya TV channel shows him pleading for the return of his passport shortly after his arrest.

&#8220;I need to tell the embassy where I am at,&#8221; he said, during a confused interrogation as police officers interrupt and laugh in the background.

He went on to tell them that he was working at the US consulate in Lahore &#8220;I just work as a consultant there, with the [Regional Affairs Office],&#8221; he said.

His arrest is deeply embarrassing to the governments of both Pakistan and the US, which has suspended some high-level talks in order to increase pressure on Islamabad.

Source: The Telegraph

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## bronx

Solomon2 said:


> Wrong. Under international law it is not permitted to hold a person with diplomatic immunity in custody while facts are ascertained.
> 
> None of the U.S. statements I've seen are in conflict about his immune status.


 
Pakistan FM Qureshie has already clarified that RD does not hold diplomatic immunity . Isn't that sufficient ?


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## ajay

what about pakistani mobs killing robbers with bare hands and bats does the same rule not apply? I think this has become a political issue as he is American 



Mob lynching:


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## F86 Saber

ashok321 said:


> Very likely because Pakistan does not want to loose US support.
> 
> 
> 
> Highly unlikly because Qureshie was sacrificed to open a way for RD`s departure.
> 
> Its a matter of few days before you see him released.....no wonder.
> 
> BTW, people have stopped posting Luchman-Najam Sethi videos (my fav) are their no videos no more???



My friend at this point in time, USA cannot afford to loose Pakistan as an ally. Not because of Pakistan's importance in WOT, because this will be detrimental to US's future plans. They need a safe supply route into Afghanistan for their forces who are going to remain their for a long period of time.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...is-case-developing-story-185.html#post1484521

Slightly off topic, but didn't the US make the case that since they allegedly found some ISI officials to be in 'contact' with the Haqqani network, that that then implied that the ISI was behind the Indian embassy bombings in Afghanistan?

Applying the same logic here, should Pakistan then blame the US for terrorist attacks by the Taliban and LeJ?

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## Devil Soul

*India denies access to Rahat Fateh*
Updated at 1010 PST Monday, February 14, 2011





NEW DELHI: Noted Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan was detained at the IGI Airport on Sunday evening by Indian revenue intelligence sleuths for allegedly carrying a huge amount of undeclared foreign currency Sunday.

*The officials of Pakistan High Commission reached the office of Directorate of Revenue Intelligence Monday to meet the singer but the Indian authorities denied the access to the star.*

Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir also called Indian High Commissioner in Islamabad Sharat Sabarwal and discussed the matter. The Indian envoy was asked by the Foreign Secretary to ensure that "no official should misbehave with Rahat during interrogation".

Bashir also called up Pakistani High Commissioner to India Shahid Malik and directed him to "take immediate steps for securing release of Rahat".

"The matter should be taken up formally with Indian foreign office," he said, adding that "contact with Indian authorities for updates in the case must be maintained throughout". Pakistan HC in New Dehli has constituted a team to pursue the matter.

Khan, who is a hit Bollywood playback singer, arrived on a flight from Karachi and was intercepted by personnel from the Directorate of Revenue Intelligence acting on some prior information, official sources said.

They said the singer was carrying a huge amount of foreign currency which he did not declare to the immigration authorities. Two other persons accompanying him have also been detained, the sources said.
India denies access to Rahat Fateh


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## Raza88

BREAKING NEWS

Fouzia Wahab at a press conference says Raymond Davis has a diplomatic visa and has diplomatic immunity


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## Nalwa

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what can you expect from indian hospitality; but he chose to go there and should have known the implications of it
> 
> sound judgement always goes a long way, especially in a country that is totally alien


 
Yeah right. He's been travelling to India for so many years without any incident. Where was your warped view of hospitality before?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Raza88 said:


> BREAKING NEWS
> 
> Fouzia Wahab at a press conference says Raymond Davis has a diplomatic visa and has diplomatic immunity


There was nothing else the aid whores of the current PPP led GoP could do.

A whore has to service her clients, the rule of law be damned.

The PPP under its current leadership is a lost cause for Pakistan - expect nothing other than yet more capitulation and disgrace from this party and government.

This pretty much validates Qureshi's position as well - that he refused to bend the rules to grant Davis immunity, and was kicked out of the FM position for sticking to a principled position upholding the rule of law.

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## third eye

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> why should I? It's not my business. Actually, he should have been aware about hindustan's capital controls; which exist in many other countries. indian in particular have draconian capital controls.
> 
> probably it was his money which he earned from concerts and other activities; i dont think he has any investments* in that damned country*
> 
> again, he should have been a bit wiser and known the implications of such a visit



Lets not lose the advantage education gives us.


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## kugga

aa gai Government apni auqaat pay... See what she's said..

RD has a Diplomatic Visa, there are 1 million pakistanis in America, America is the largest market of pakistani products... 

Simply she wants us to sell ourselves... Shame on such a big looser

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## kugga

Time to be on streets and may be soon we 'll be

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## ashok321

> They need a safe supply route into Afghanistan for their forces who are going to remain their for a long period of time.



How safe it is, when thier trucks are torched by Pakistanis?

And dont understimate a superpower, a USD printing nation, to stick to just Pakistani route.



> The growing danger has forced the Pentagon to seek far longer, but possibly safer, alternate routes through Europe, the Caucasus and Central Asia, according to Defense Department documents. A notice to potential contractors by the U.S. Transportation Command in September said that "strikes, border delays, accidents and pilferage" in Pakistan and the risk of "attacks and armed hijackings" in Afghanistan posed "a significant risk" to supplies for Western forces in Afghanistan.






> The United States has already begun negotiations with countries along what the Pentagon has called a new northern route. An agreement with Georgia has been reached and talks are ongoing with Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, according to an Oct. 31 Pentagon document.






> Russia agreed this year to allow NATO to send material by rail. The coalition in Afghanistan is working to create an intercontinental rail system that would carry nonlethal equipment and materials for both economic assistance and military programs that would go through Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan





> Separately, the Pentagon's Transportation Command is seeking contractors who could handle what it projects as about 50,000 rail containers a year traveling over a new Europe-Caucasus route or, separately, one through Central Asia.



On this, the odds are against Pakistan than vice versa.


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## VCheng

The process of ending this case is proceeding exactly as I predicted.

We ALL need to remain calm and collected and NOT give in to stoked mass hysteria that would be self damaging above all else.

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## kugga

VCheng said:


> The process of ending this case is proceeding exactly as I predicted.
> 
> We ALL need to remain calm and collected and NOT give in to stoked mass hysteria that would be self damaging above all else.



Stop it just stop We don't want a life of a slave.... As Tipu sultan said

"Shair ki aik din ki zindagi geedar ki so din ki zindagi sey behtar hai"

We'll protest and never let him go like this... If RD goes then Zardari party will also go and GO TO HELL America... I mean how can they do this he killed 2 persons and one person was killed by his fellows... I don't have words to explain my grief and anger

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## jahangeer yousaf

KARACHI: Secretary Information Pakistan People&#8217;s Party (PPP) Fauzia Wahab has said that Raymond Davis, accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, enjoyed diplomatic immunity, Geo News reported on Monday.

Addressing a press conference at Karachi Press Club, Fauzia Wahab said that Pakistan is the signatory of Vienna Convention, therefore, all the diplomats enjoy immunity, adding that diplomats cannot be arrested.

She said that Davis possess diplomatic passport, therefore, he enjoys immunity.

Fauzia Wahab further said that United States is the biggest market of Pakistani products. A large number of Pakistanis are living there, she said and added that 80 percent remittance of Pakistan came from the US.(GEO URDU)


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## VCheng

kugga said:


> Stop it just stop We don't want a life of a slave.... As Tipu sultan said
> 
> "Shair ki aik din ki zindagi geedar ki so din ki zindagi sey behtar hai"
> 
> We'll protest and never let him go like this... If RD goes then Zardari party will also go and GO TO HELL America... I mean how can they do this he killed 2 persons and one person was killed by his fellows... I don't have words to explain my grief and anger




I understand your grief and anger, and also their justifications, but the ROOTS of the "slavery" that you describe are deep and will not be dug up with this one incident. It will take decades of hard work in education and social and economic progress before any shackles can be broken.

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## Patriot

What's the big deal guys?He violated the rule and got detained.Law works for everyone including the popular.If it was an average joe such information would not even get into the news.

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## kugga

VCheng said:


> I understand your grief and anger, and also their justifications, but the ROOTS of the "slavery" that you describe are deep and will not be dug up with this one incident. It will take decades of hard work in education and social and economic progress before any shackles can be broken.


 
Whatever you say but this could be the first drop of water.... We need to stand united and counter US that's the best time to do this if this time is lost we'll remain darkness for another 100 years

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## jahangeer yousaf

VCheng said:


> I understand your grief and anger, and also their justifications, but the ROOTS of the "slavery" that you describe are deep and will not be dug up with this one incident. It will take decades of hard work in education and social and economic progress before any shackles can be broken.


a step should be taken and i believe this would be the first step ........INSHALLAH


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## ashok321

jahangeer yousaf said:


> KARACHI: Secretary Information Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) Fauzia Wahab has said that Raymond Davis, accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, enjoyed diplomatic immunity, Geo News reported on Monday.
> 
> Addressing a press conference at Karachi Press Club, Fauzia Wahab said that Pakistan is the signatory of Vienna Convention, therefore, all the diplomats enjoy immunity, adding that diplomats cannot be arrested.
> 
> She said that Davis possess diplomatic passport, therefore, he enjoys immunity.
> 
> Fauzia Wahab further said that United States is the biggest market of Pakistani products. A large number of Pakistanis are living there, she said and added that 80 percent remittance of Pakistan came from the US.(GEO URDU)


 
RD is not worth billions of dollars that would be otherwise stopped, hence the outcome is logical as was presumed by me looking at my crystal ball.

Now lets see how many people hit the streets a la Egypt!


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## Developereo

Despite the predictable capitulation by our pathetic politcians, the Pakistani public can hold its head high.
The US is now on record as an arrogant bully that holds its covert operatives above the law.
Every single government around the world has taken notice and this will affect US relations around the globe.

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## jahangeer yousaf

ashok321 said:


> RD is not worth billions of dollars that would be otherwise stopped, hence the outcome is logical as was presumed by me looking at my crystal ball.
> 
> Now lets see how many people hit the streets a la Egypt!


i am afraid to say that you won't find but i hope i am wrong ............ we have divided ourselves in sindhis punjabis,pushtoon,balochis,shia sunis and lots of things ........ we have left being muslims and pakistanis .........................nothing is gonna happen lyke eypt or tunis may ALLAH bless pakistanis towards the right path ................


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## Hulk

Why people lose common sense when it comes to India and Pakistan.
He was carrying Huge sum of money to India. This is not a small crime, we need to know why he was carrying that much money to India. If it was other way round that it was understandable that he got payment in black money, but what is the need to take so much money to India.

Give me one explaination. 
I also do not understand why *if there is a celebrity involved we want to put them above law.*


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## VCheng

kugga said:


> Whatever you say but this could be the first drop of water.... We need to stand united and counter US that's the best time to do this if this time is lost we'll remain darkness for another 100 years


 


jahangeer yousaf said:


> a step should be taken and i believe this would be the first step ........INSHALLAH


 


Sohni Dharti said:


> Despite the predictable capitulation by our pathetic politcians, the Pakistani public can hold its head high.
> The US is now on record as an arrogant bully that holds its covert operatives above the law.
> Every single government around the world has taken notice and this will affect US relations around the globe.


 


jahangeer yousaf said:


> i am afraid to say that you won't find but i hope i am wrong ............ we have divided ourselves in sindhis punjabis,pushtoon,balochis,shia sunis and lots of things ........ we have left being muslims and pakistanis .........................nothing is gonna happen lyke eypt or tunis may ALLAH bless pakistanis towards the right path ................



I can appreciate all these sentiments, trust me.

However, the status quo will likely remain for the foreseeable future.

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## Patriot

I just have one questions for those calling for utter destruction of US.Where are you people with your honor when Taliban blow dozens of Pakistanis to bits.In fact you even support them!This fake honor is just bullshit.We need to look at the case rationally.If we have to release him then we should for greater interests of Pakistan.Revenge can be taken later on.There is no need to be emotional.A war between US and Pakistan is exactly what Indians wants.So be careful what you wish for.I'd totally support you guys if you had the same feelings towards Taliban but yet you think we should forgive them and become buddies buddies but on US Side you are strictly anti US.This is hypocrisy i think and selective honor.Just because we have nukes does not mean we should start war with US.

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## ashok321

> we have divided ourselves in sindhis punjabis,pushtoon,balochis,shia sunis and lots of things .



The same shik applies to Indians who are ruled n fooled by Italian, who is looting India - same like Zardari does - both should be out, India Pakistan awam should stand up against swiss banks and get thier money back where it blonged.

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## kugga

Patriot said:


> I just have one questions for those calling for utter destruction of US.Where are you people with your honor when Taliban blow dozens of Pakistanis to bits.In fact you even support them!This fake honor is just bullshit.We need to look at the case rationally.If we have to release him then we should for greater interests of Pakistan.Revenge can be taken later on.There is no need to be emotional.A war between US and Pakistan is exactly what Indians wants.So be careful what you wish for.I'd totally support you guys if you had the same feelings towards Taliban but yet you think we should forgive them and become buddies buddies but on US Side you are strictly anti US.This is hypocrisy i think and selective honor.



Just ONE word for you STFU

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## Patriot

kugga said:


> Just ONE word for you STFU


 Yeah - I was not expecting something rational from TTP and Taliban supporters (or people who have soft spot for Taliban) .(No Offense Intended).

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## VCheng

kugga said:


> Just ONE word for you STFU


 
Actually, that is an acronym for FOUR words!


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## kugga

VCheng said:


> Actually, that is an acronym for FOUR words!


 
I thought it after writing but nyways I conveyed my message...


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## VCheng

kugga said:


> I thought it after writing but nyways I conveyed my message...



Understood Sir!


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## ashok321

Patriot said:


> I just have one questions for those calling for utter destruction of US.Where are you people with your honor when Taliban blow dozens of Pakistanis to bits.In fact you even support them!This fake honor is just bullshit.We need to look at the case rationally.If we have to release him then we should for greater interests of Pakistan.Revenge can be taken later on.There is no need to be emotional.A war between US and Pakistan is exactly what Indians wants.So be careful what you wish for.I'd totally support you guys if you had the same feelings towards Taliban but yet you think we should forgive them and become buddies buddies but on US Side you are strictly anti US.This is hypocrisy i think and selective honor.Just because we have nukes does not mean we should start war with US.


 
Helt riktig sa min venn....


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## Patriot

I totally agree with your stance on Raymond Davis Case, Kugga.It's just that it irritates me when you don't have the same stance on Taliban and TTP just because they happen to be Muslims..You people just find some reason to justify their actions.Justice and other bs.


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## kugga

Patriot said:


> Yeah - I was not expecting something rational from TTP and Taliban supporters (or people who have soft spot for Taliban) .(No Offense Intended).


 
I totally agree... Nything against your master or against your master's War is just TTP Sympathizing or Taliban's support.... If that is your criteria then I m a Taliban Supporter... Now please stop trolling this thread is not about your master's trained terrorists (TTP)


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## Safriz

Pakistan has become an international W h o r e due to all those conventions and agreements which almost never benefit Pakistan and the others always find a way out...International agreements only give powerful nations a license to abuse Pakistan the way they want.

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## ashok321

PPP Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab said that Qureshi had ditched the party leadership and it was not the first time he had done so


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## ashok321

safriz said:


> Pakistan can always Unsighn any international agreement as these agreements work one way for Pakistan..Not much benefit for Pakistan as the other signatories always find a way out when its them Vs Pakistan...



There are many such agreement that Pakistan, as a member of UNO (world democratic organisation) has signed. 

I dont think Pak going to revoke them in near future because Pakistan has been benefited several times on these signed documents too......


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## Developereo

We should start a petition to collect money and put up a memorial on location in Lahore.

It's a clear message to the US: you have won as a superpower but we will never forget what happened here.

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## Humanist

*He has traveled to India hundreds of times.. How long we will show hospitality....*


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## Leviza

this ppp gov will pay the price for this act.....
this killer said himself he is just a consultant in Lahore consulate 

now these Americans salves in gov acted on masters wish.....

*i hope someone now within the police will kill this person* without any delay as they did with Punjab governor..............

*when gov fails to provide protection to its citizens then people need to take things in their own hands.....*

he got the immunity what about the car driver who crushed one innocent person did he got the immunity too? 

i demand that there shouldn't be any consulate in Lahore as they font follow the rule of country ..... they should be restricted to Islamabad only


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## johnny boy

oops no idea...mostly people carry all these notes on international traffic....


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## kugga

ashok321 said:


> There are many such agreement that Pakistan, as a member of UNO (world democratic organisation) has signed.
> 
> I dont think Pak going to revoke them in near future because Pakistan has been benefited several times on these signed documents too......


 
For how many times it has to be said that he was not a diplomat and he's not a diplomat.... Is it that difficult to understand?? FO doesn't recognize him as a diplomat.. If he was a counselor employee he can be tried in Pakistan but he was not even of that rank... Shame on us...


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## Humanist

Every country has the rule of declaring the amount while travelling.. Moreover the minimum amount $5000 is approximately same for most of the countries..


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## ajtr

indianrabbit said:


> Why people lose common sense when it comes to India and Pakistan.
> *He was carrying Huge sum of money to India.* This is not a small crime, we need to know why he was carrying that much money to India. If it was other way round that it was understandable that he got payment in black money, but what is the need to take so much money to India.
> 
> Give me one explaination.
> I also do not understand why *if there is a celebrity involved we want to put them above law.*



..................................


> Khan was taking an Emirates flight to Lahore when DRI officials intercepted him.


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## ashok321

> Why on earth was he or his group carrying so much money* into India* ?



Wrong!

He was taking money away from India to Pakistan!


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## rohailmalhi

Are we so shameless .......................PPP leadership is full as***le , ba**ards. Sucking the d**k of america at every moment they can.

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## jahangeer yousaf

calm down rohail we all know that they are doing but we should watch our language with regards ...... hopefully you do understand what i meant to say

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## Safriz

Leviza said:


> this ppp gov will pay the price for this act.....
> this killer said himself he is just a consultant in Lahore consulate
> 
> now these Americans salves in gov acted on masters wish.....
> 
> *i hope someone now within the police will kill this person* without any delay as they did with Punjab governor..............
> 
> *when gov fails to provide protection to its citizens then people need to take things in their own hands.....*
> 
> he got the immunity what about the car driver who crushed one innocent person did he got the immunity too?
> 
> i demand that there shouldn't be any consulate in Lahore as they font follow the rule of country ..... they should be restricted to Islamabad only


 
As much as we are annoyed by the cowardice of PPP government..we certainly don't want extra judicial killing..The person should be tried in a court of law without any immunity and the court should decide his fate...

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## Kinetic

Going through first few pages it seems like critical situation indeed.

My question to those think that RD will be released, how the PPP govt will do that according to law when there are so many allegations against RD??? Impossible. Above all army is there.


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## JonAsad

Wonder when she gona retract her statement-- like our not so respected Interior Minister Rehman Malik did--

Any way the Courts will decide what to do with Davis- she can just bark to show her loyalty to her masters-- thats it--

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## kugga

Kinetic said:


> Going through first few pages it seems like critical situation indeed.
> 
> My question to those think that RD will be released, how the PPP govt will do that according to law when there are so many allegations against RD??? Impossible.


 
You shud also go through last few pages to get the answer.. Haven't you heard 
"Where there is a will, there is a way"


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## Raza88

How is it that the PPP leadership is so dumb?
Every step that they take seems to be a cry 'please come and kick us out'

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> The process of ending this case is proceeding exactly as I predicted.
> 
> We ALL need to remain calm and collected and NOT give in to stoked mass hysteria that would be self damaging above all else.


 
And what happens when the PPP and Zardari try and sell out our nuclear program?

This may be just one incident, but what this one incident makes clear is that the PPP/Zardari will sell out any Pakistani interest they can for the sake of continued aid from the US. The only reason the Pakistani nuclear program hasn't been sold out yet is because the military has strong control over it.

And some people still wonder why so many Pakistanis trust the military over politicians and find the military's control of certain key areas desirable.

This incident is rebuke enough to the rantings against the military of Kamran Shafi, NFP, Ayesha Siddiqa and Co.

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## Leviza

safriz said:


> As much as we are annoyed by the cowardice of PPP government..we certainly don't want extra judicial killing..The person should be tried in a court of law without any immunity and the court should decide his fate...



yes i agree with you but for how long we as a nation keep going like this.....
this is done on purpose to make our nation go down and down...... 

why did the drone attacks stopped in this time frame? 
the Game is on and US playing all its dirty cards ........ as our gov is failed in protecting its citizens someone need to come fwd.

they are doing all this BS to take the WOT on next level .......... if we dont stop this now it will become a routine in Pakistan like drone attacks....


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Raza88 said:


> How is it that the PPP leadership is so dumb?
> Every step that they take seems to be a cry 'please come and kick us out'


 
A few analysts analyzing Zardari and the PPP's bizarre behavior a couple of months ago suggested that perhaps the PPP wants to be 'kicked out unconstitutionally', because then they can claim to be 'political martyrs', and excuse away all their failings by ranting about how 'we were removed from power and not allowed to finish our term', and use that to salvage seats and make a comeback later.


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## JonAsad

Lets analyze her statement-



> Fauzia Wahab said that Pakistan is the signatory of Vienna Convention, therefore, all the diplomats enjoy immunity, adding that diplomats cannot be arrested under this convention.
> 
> She said that Davis possess diplomatic passport, therefore, he enjoys immunity.



*Point1- Pakistan is the signatory of Vienna Convention*
Yeah right-

*Point2- all the diplomats enjoy immunity*
*Point3- Davis possess diplomatic passport, therefore, he enjoys immunity.*

Diplomatic visa or Diplomatic Passport-- does not guarentee Diplomatic Immunity- They enjoy immunity- only if their immunity is approved by FO-- in this case we can easily say he do not have immunity-- otherwise how hard it could be for the FO to verify it--

*Point4- diplomats cannot be arrested under this convention.*

Yes they can be- Diplomats can be arrested and prosecuted- according to same Vienna convention we are signatory of-

According to Vienna convection Article 41 for Arrest--


> Article 41
> Personal inviolability of consular of icers
> 1. Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
> grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.
> 2. Except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, consular officers shall not be
> committed to prison or be liable to any other form of restriction on their personal freedom save in
> execution of a judicial decision of final effect.
> 3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the
> competent authorities. Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by
> reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner
> which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. When, in the circumstances
> mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the
> proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay



and

According to Vienna convention Article 42 for Prosecution--



> Article 42
> Notification of arrest, detention or prosecution
> In the event of the arrest or detention, pending trial, of a member of the consular staff, or of
> criminal proceedings being instituted against him, the receiving State shall promptly notify the head of
> the consular post. Should the latter be himself the object of any such measure, the receiving State shall
> notify the sending State through the diplomatic channe



Link- 1963 Vienna convention

*Point5- Who is she to say Davis has immunity and should be freed, when his Big Boss Mr Zardari has himself stated that on record-- that the courts will decide Davis fate--*

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## kugga

Mere mulk tey paaey ney sappan ney dairey..... Uth jawaaana.....

YouTube - Uth Jawana- Soch Band- Real Patriotic Song


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## RescueRanger

kugga said:


> Mere mulk tey paaey ney sappan ney dairey..... Uth jawaaana.....
> 
> YouTube - Uth Jawana- Soch Band- Real Patriotic Song


 
Pakistani bas Ganey Gatey hain or Nachtey hain. Abye in ko agar apne mohalley me sarak theek karney ko kaho to sara "Jazba" flat ho jaye ga. 

Nation of Slackers.

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## ashok321

> The Pakistani government is feeling the heat of former foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshis startling disclosure that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had forced him to confirm the diplomatic immunity for US consular staffer Raymond Davis, who is currently in custody on charges of killing two people in Lahore



Pakistan feels heat after Qureshi's disclosures | Hillary Clinton | Raymond Davis | Indian Express


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## kugga

RescueRanger said:


> Pakistani bas Ganey Gatey hain or Nachtey hain. Abye in ko agar apne mohalley me sarak theek karney ko kaho to sara "Jazba" flat ho jaye ga.
> 
> Nation of Slackers.


 
hmmm I agree wid you but buddy ab mein sb ko utha tou nai sakta na gharon sey aur na hi yeh larka nikaal sakta hai... nikalain gay sb tab hi jab Allah himmat day ga.. Woh suna haina 

Maali da kam paani laana, bhar bhar mushkaan paawey
Malik da kam phal phool laana, laawey ya na laawey

Every person shud fulfill his own duty first..

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## Raza88

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> A few analysts analyzing Zardari and the PPP's bizarre behavior a couple of months ago suggested that perhaps the PPP wants to be 'kicked out unconstitutionally', because then they can claim to be 'political martyrs', and excuse away all their failings by ranting about how 'we were removed from power and not allowed to finish our term', and use that to salvage seats and make a comeback later.


 
Exactly!!
The only problem is that the nation is in such a bad state that no political party wants to come into power right now and the military which has already taken a little beating on its public image due to musharraf is staying in the background (which by the way is the right thing on behalf of the military).
.


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## GUNNER

*Pakistan ruling party softens over US gunman*

(AFP) 

KARACHI &#8212; A spokeswoman for Pakistan's main ruling party on Monday moved to dilute anger over a US official accused of murdering two Pakistanis, saying diplomats have immunity and that he had an official visa.

Pakistan's ties with the United States have gone into crisis since police arrested Raymond Davis, who confessed to killing two men in self-defence on a busy street in the eastern city of Lahore on January 27.

Washington supports his claim and says he is a diplomat who should be released immediately in keeping with international law.

But the weak coalition Pakistani government is under enormous pressure to see Davis put on trial in a country awash with anti-American sentiment.

A court last Friday remanded him in custody for an extra two weeks and police accused him of cold-blooded murder.

"We have always abided by international laws and conventions," Pakistan People's Party (PPP) spokeswoman Fauzia Wahab told reporters in Karachi.

"Davis has an official business visa, so why argue and why we are risking our overall good reputation before the rest of the world?"

The US State Department on Saturday postponed a round of high-level talks with Afghanistan and Pakistan following failed attempts to get Pakistan to release Davis.

US lawmakers have threatened to cut payments to Pakistan, the beneficiary of $7.5 billion dollars of aid and $2 billion in military aid, and Washington has warned that high-level dialogue is at risk unless Davis is freed.

"America is the largest market for Pakistan, with whom we earn four billion dollars. Most Pakistanis who live in the United States send bulk of remittances to us to support our economy," said Wahab.


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## rohailmalhi

Yeah really PPP leadership are so cheap low life creatures , i didnt know .Yar koi self respect hoti hay .
Americans threatening to stop the aid , send our ambassador back , stopped dialogues on every level .See what they do for one man , who is spy in our contry and has killed 2 innocent civilians .

We really should stand up and show them that they are not everything .I would say it will best time ever from the creation of Pakistan , tht americans will cut off their ties with Pakistan .I would really pray for that time .


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## rohailmalhi

> ISLAMABAD: The imperial arrogance of a superpower is increasing day by day for a weak democracy in Pakistan but still remains counterproductive. Pakistan is challenging the US the second time in less than six months after the Nato supply line was cut in October last year, which was resumed only after profound official apologies by Washington. This time, the US is not ready to apologise or show respect to Pakistani law but is trying to prove that Pakistan is not its most trusted but its most bullied ally.
> A scheduled high-level trilateral meeting with Pakistan, which was aimed at discussing the situation in Afghanistan, has been put off. It wrongly assumed that postponing a diplomatic meeting would be enough for putting more pressure on Islamabad to release its shady secret agent Raymond Davis being tried for murder in Lahore.
> This imperial arrogance never worked and Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir responded on Saturday that, If I commit an immoral act, I wont seek immunity. As another pressure move, now the US officials have conveyed to Pakistan that if Raymond Davis will not be released in the coming days, then the visit of President Asif Ali Zardari to the US next month could also be postponed.
> Highly reliable sources in the Foreign Office claimed that the US State Department is not calling the shots at least for the last 10 days, the White House is directly dealing with the Raymond Davis case under the pressure of CIA. It is now clear that Raymond Davis was working for CIA because CIA has stopped drone attacks in Pakistani tribal areas after his arrest.
> It was also learnt that Pakistani officials in Washington are getting threatening messages directly from the White House. Pakistan Embassy in Washington has conveyed to the president and the prime minister in Islamabad last week that the US could postpone the visit of Zardari to Washington and some US congressmen are also planning to start a move for disrupting the US aid to Pakistan. Despite all these threatening messages, top government officials in Islamabad once again made it clear on Sunday that only the Pakistani courts will decide the fate of Raymond Davis.
> A powerful federal minister very close to President Asif Ali Zardari told this scribe We are not in a position to oblige the US because this matter is now sub judice and the Lahore High Court has included the name of Raymond Davis in the Exit Control List. If we will do anything in violation of the court orders, then the court will summon us for contempt and we are sure that the people of Pakistan will come out on the roads against us and our fate will be worse than Hosni Mubarak.
> When asked if there is unanimity in all the government institutions on the Raymond Davis case, then why Shah Mehmood Qureshi was not given the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the new cabinet, the minister had no satisfactory answer and accepted that the Qureshi affair had created many questions and only Prime Minister Gilani can answer these questions but he also said: Let me tell you clearly that president, PM, Army chief and Punjab government are now on one wavelength on the Raymond Davis issue. Only the courts will decide his fate, we will not accept any US pressure, we are ready to face US sanctions because we know that new elections are very close and a small mistake on this issue will destroy the political future of Pakistan Peoples Party.
> Despite all these off-the-record claims, no powerful minister is ready to say anything about the US on the record. Even Shah Mehmood Qureshi is making big claims only after he was not given Foreign Ministry. It is learnt that majority of the new cabinet members have advised the PM not to accept the US pressure. Initially, President Zardari asked the PM to find out some way to come out of the mounting US pressure but it was Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir who clearly wrote in one of his notes to the PM that Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and we cannot compromise our national security by accepting US pressure on this issue. Let the courts decide the case, we should not provide immunity to a killer.
> Foreign Office sources said the arrogant attitude of the US on Raymond Davis case also exposed the seriousness of US for its war against terror and strategic dialogue with Pakistan. The US is ready to forget everything Pakistan did in the past just for a person who killed two Pakistanis in the name of so-called self-defence. The family of a third person is also planning to take some legal action against top police officials who have still not arrested the associates of Raymond Davis who killed motorcyclist Ibadur Rehman in their attempt to rescue the killer.
> The Punjab Police officials claimed that they were in contact with US Consulate in Lahore for the arrest of the driver who killed a motorcyclist.
> It is also important that diplomatic community in Islamabad is not supporting the US position on the Raymond Davis case. Many European diplomats exchanged views on this issue with this scribe and said that diplomats do not move and act like Raymond Davis moved and acted in Lahore. Diplomats are not entitled to carry illegal weapons with them.
> One diplomat reminded me of my questions to US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton in a TV interview in 2009 in which I asked her that why US officials were moving in Pakistan with illegal weapons in their hands and when Pakistani police arrest them, why you put pressure on our government to release them. Hilary never had a satisfactory answer and promised in that television interview that she will get the details and will make sure that it does not happen again. But this promise was not fulfilled. US secret agents expanded their activities from Islamabad to Peshawar and from Lahore to Karachi under the nose of the PPP government.
> One European diplomat said the US has forgotten all its responsibilities as a major international player just for Raymond Davis. Another diplomat said that tomorrow Raymond Davis type secret agents may kill more people in other capitals of the world and then the US will claim diplomatic immunity. He said Pakistan should not accept the US pressure because it will create more problems for diplomats all over the world.
> An Arab diplomat said: We condemn Taliban and al-Qaeda because they break the law of the land, we hunt them, we punish them but why cant we arrest and punish a US citizen if he kills someone? What is the difference between Taliban and US secret agents. Both violate laws, both kill innocents.


Diplomats do not support US stand on Davis


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## ashok321

If RD is let off and made to leave, he wont be guilty on THAT account. However, those who let him go (PPP) should be responsible. So forumites turret should swivel towards PPP....

But wait here!

If PPP is gone, what do you want, a Sharif nawaz govrnment, who is equally corrupt like Zardari?

Now the only option is that of Military a la Musharaf....But wait here too...

Was it not a Musharaf who agreed with Americans to facilitate drones and kill its own people ?

So what options are on the table for Pakistan awam?


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## Leviza

ashok321 said:


> If RD is let off and made to leave, he wont be guilty on THAT account. However, those who let him go (PPP) should be responsible. So forumites turret should swivel towards PPP....
> 
> But wait here!
> 
> If PPP is gone, what do you want, a Sharif nawaz govrnment, who is equally corrupt like Zardari?
> 
> Now the only option is that of Military a la Musharaf....But wait here too...
> 
> Was it not a Musharaf who agreed with Americans to facilitate drones and kill its own people ?
> 
> So what options are on the table for Pakistan awam?


 
enjoying the issues here my friend from the east.....

well zardari is not just corrupt he is against Pakistan...
Nawaz is corrupt but still not as much as Zardari ...... but 100% not against Pakistan...
there are lots of other options as well (Imran khan, technocrats ) , they are not against Pakistan.....

so i hope got your answer


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## greatsequence

ashok321 said:


> If RD is let off and made to leave, he wont be guilty on THAT account. However, those who let him go (PPP) should be responsible. So forumites turret should swivel towards PPP....
> 
> But wait here!
> 
> If PPP is gone, what do you want, a Sharif nawaz govrnment, who is equally corrupt like Zardari?
> 
> Now the only option is that of Military a la Musharaf....But wait here too...
> 
> Was it not a Musharaf who agreed with Americans to facilitate drones and kill its own people ?
> 
> So what options are on the table for Pakistan awam?


 
Slow and steady wins the race. Take the issues one by one and the issues can be solved. Let them be late than never.

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## IndianArmy

Devil Soul said:


> do u even know what ur talking about? Nusrat Fetah Ali Khan (late) was his uncle not father.. this show how well informed u r ..
> Peace


 
Oh My bad, then.... I have seen him Sitting with Nusrat at a very young age and Performing, So assumed Nusrat was His Father... My Apologies....


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## ashok321

greatsequence said:


> Slow and steady wins the race. Take the issues one by one and the issues can be solved. Let them be late than never.


 
Like India, Pakistan too is messed up with scams/corruption at high level.
Its time for people of both the countries to duplicate Egypt.
But I see very little resolve for India-Pak people to overwhelm the streets....How long these top level people should be allowed to bleed our countries dry ?

A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction......

It is lights, camera, inaction in our part of this world....


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## SpArK

*Rahat Fateh Ali Khan released​*
Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI) released Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan and two others from pending investigations into recovery of foreign exchange case.

The singer has been asked to surrender his passport to DRI.

Rahat and two others persons from his crew- Maroof and Chitresh Shirivastava asked to appear before DRI on February 17 again.

Breaking news: Rahat Fateh Ali Khan released - India - DNA


*Now chill and listen to this and relaxxxxxxxxx*


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Raymond Davis enjoys diplomatic immunity: Wahab
KARACHI: A spokeswoman for Pakistan&#8217;s main ruling party on Monday moved to dilute anger over a US official accused of murdering two Pakistanis, saying diplomats have immunity and that he had an official visa.
Pakistan&#8217;s ties with the United States have gone into crisis since police arrested Raymond Davis, who confessed to killing two men in self-defence on a busy street in Lahore on January 27.
&#8220;We have always abided by international laws and conventions,&#8221; Pakistan People&#8217;s Party&#8217;s (PPP) information secretary Fauzia Wahab told reporters in Karachi.
She said that diplomats as well as technical staff of foreign missions enjoy immunity under the Vienna Convention, and Raymond Davis is no exception.
Wahab said that the government has to handle this case with care as the United States is the largest donor of foreign aid to Pakistan.
&#8220;Davis has an official business visa, so why argue and why we are risking our overall good reputation before the rest of the world?&#8221;
&#8220;America is the largest market for Pakistan, with whom we earn four billion dollars. Most Pakistanis who live in the United States send bulk of remittances to us to support our economy,&#8221; said Wahab.
Regarding claims made by the former foreign minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, that he had refused to grant a diplomatic visa to Raymond Davis, the information secretary said that Qureshi had violated the party&#8217;s discipline by making those claims.
Shah Mehmood Qureshi, who was dropped from the cabinet when a new, smaller cabinet was announced last week, is said to have annoyed the party leadership &#8220;over his divergent opinion on the Raymond Davis issue&#8221;.
The US State Department on Saturday postponed high-level talks with Afghanistan and Pakistan following failed attempts to get Pakistan to release Davis.
US lawmakers have also threatened to cut payments to Pakistan, the beneficiary of $7.5 billion dollars of aid and $2 billion in military aid, and Washington has warned that high-level dialogue is at risk unless Davis is freed.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Raza88 said:


> BREAKING NEWS
> 
> Fouzia Wahab at a press conference says Raymond Davis has a diplomatic visa and has diplomatic immunity


 
Lets all go home now.....case closed.


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## twoplustwoisfour

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Lets all go home now.....case closed.


 
Let the conspiracy theories begin. If he had a diplomatic passport, why wait so much time to reveal that?


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## ajtr

*Pakistan Starts to Pave the Way for Detained American's Release​*
*Ruling Party Spokesperson Invokes Geneva Convention in Case of U.S. Diplomat Raymond Davis Accused in Shooting*

The spokesperson for Pakistan's ruling party invoked the Geneva Convention and diplomatic immunity for the first time today as a possible avenue for the U.S. to secure the release of Raymond Davis, the American diplomat who allegedly gunned down two Pakistani men last month.

Fauzia Wahab, a spokesperson for the Pakistan People Party, said that no diplomat can be kept in captivity and that Davis has an official diplomatic visa. The U.S. State Department has been demanding Davis' release based on the same points since the Jan. 25 shooting incident, but today marks the first time a prominent Pakistani official publicly backed the international agreement in Davis' case.

Wahab's comments come just a day after the Taliban issued a threat on the lives of anyone involved in Davis' release.

"Whether he is a judge, police, lawyer, army, policy maker or a politician, we will target him. We will kill him," a Taliban spokesman told The Associated Press Sunday.
Davis, 36, was arrested after allegedly shooting and killing two men on the streets of Lahore, Pakistan, who the U.S. State Department said were trying to rob him. A third Pakistani man was struck and killed by a vehicle that was reportedly racing to Davis' aid. U.S. officials have repeatedly declined to answer questions about Davis' precise job in Pakistan, saying only he was a "member of the administrative and technical staff" of the Islamabad embassy and traveled on a diplomatic passport. Public records show Davis has experience with the U.S. Special Forces and runs a small security company.

Despite holding a diplomatic passport, Davis has been held in Lahore since the incident and Lahore's police chief Friday rejected the idea he had acted in self-defense. The shooting was "intentional and cold-blooded murder," police chief Aslam Tareen said.

After the court's decision to detain Davis for an extended period Friday, Carmela Conroy, the U.S. Consul General in Lahore, said that the incident was a tragedy, and extended her sympathy to the family of the men killed, but said that Davis is "entitled to full immunity from prosecution" as a member of the U.S. Embassy staff in Islamabad.

"Under the rules, he should be freed immediately," said Conroy, who visited Davis in prison last week. She also said she regretted that authorities "did not consider ... eyewitness accounts and physical evidence" that indicated Davis acted in self defense.

*Ray Davis and Diplomacy: Caught Between America and Pakistan*
Davis' continuing detention, his recent move to a prison from the police station, and the apparent impending murder charge could infuriate the United States. A senior U.S. official said that so long as Davis is detained, any major U.S.-Pakistan meeting would be dominated by a discussion about Davis -- making normal bilateral discussions right now difficult to impossible.

But the embassy in Islamabad rejected the claim made by Pakistani officials in an ABC news report that pressure to release Davis included a meeting between National Security Advisor Tom Donilon and Pakistan Ambassador to the United States Husain Haqqani in which Donilon threatened Haqqani with expulsion and the closure of U.S. consulates in Pakistan if Davis wasn't released last week.
"ABC News carried a story regarding a conversation in Washington between senior U.S. and Pakistani officials," said the statement, released by embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale. "Although we are unable to discuss the substance of a private diplomatic meeting, U.S. Embassy Islamabad can state categorically that the description of the conversation in this report is simply inaccurate."

U.S. officials declined to specify which details in the story were inaccurate.

Haqqani also denied that he had been threatened.

"The characterization of my conversation with White House officials by ABC News borders fabrication," he said in a statement to ABC News today. "It is not our policy to reveal details of diplomatic conversations. I can say, however, that National Security Adviser Tom Donilon did, indeed, convey the US government's views about the case of Mr. Raymond Davis during a meeting on Monday evening but no ultimatum or threat was given. I conveyed the government of Pakistan's commitment to resolve the matter in accordance with Pakistani and international law. Both sides are working together to resolve the case expeditiously and to continue our multi-faceted strategic partnership."

*Pakistani Officials: Shooting Victims Were Members of Pakistani Intelligence*
Davis has become a political and intelligence football: he is caught between a federal government ruled by the Pakistan People's party and a Punjab government led by the opposition, which is more skeptical of U.S. policies; and he is caught in an intelligence game because he killed two men working for Pakistan's premiere intelligence agency, according to four Pakistani officials.

A congressional delegation from the House Armed Services committee visited Pakistan last weekend and raised the possibility that Davis' continuing detention would threaten military aid, according to a committee aide. But a senior Pakistani military official denied that was true.

"There were no threats," he said casually, shrugging his shoulders.

But there have been threats delivered to government officials, and the larger problem, those officials say, is that the pressure is boxing them in -- because it is eroding overall support for the United States.
Speaking in private drawing room conversations or in high-end coffee shops, even some of those who support the United States say they feel like they can't support Davis' release, especially not publicly. In their minds, the ambiguous nature of Davis' job, his killing two Pakistanis in broad daylight, and the wide coverage given to U.S. anger in Pakistan has shrunk the public acceptance of all U.S. policies in Pakistan.

"I think the response to the U.S. anger is more aggressive anti-American sentiments," said Ahmed Malik, sitting at the upscale Gloria Jean's coffee in Lahore. He and his friends said the U.S. was "bullying" Pakistan. "I think people feel it's totally unjustified for the Americans to ask for a man who's done something like this" to be released, Malik said.

Their increasing skepticism of U.S. diplomacy was echoed by the senior military official, who discussed Davis' detention on the condition of anonymity.

"It should disturb the U.S. when the liberal class, on the account of U.S. attitude and bullying&#8230; is showing a lot of frustration, anger, reservations," the official told ABC News.

Click Here for the Blotter Homepage.


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## Aslan

The deals are made and amounts settled and agreed on, paid for and deposited in foreign accounts perhaps. Other deals made and set and if need arises exists secured. Now people I give you RD the diplomat.


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## GUNNER

*Gunslinger With Immunity*


By H.D.S. GREENWAY

Published: February 14, 2011 

There were lots of things to be afraid of in Baghdad in the bad old days &#8212; kidnapping, beheading, truck bombs &#8212; but nothing scared me more than trigger-happy Americans who careened out of the Green Zone, ready to shoot anybody and anything they saw as a real or imagined threat. Many were not soldiers, but private security guards under government contract who could, and did, kill with impunity &#8212; seemingly a law unto themselves. 

On a recent visit to Pakistan, I found a country rife with conspiracy theories in which Americans are most often the villains. Blackwater plays a major role in Pakistani fears, no matter how it endeavors to change its name. 

Some of these conspiracy theories are fantasies, but in the curious case of Raymond Davis, all of Pakistan&#8217;s nightmares about Americans have coalesced. And this flame is fanned by the American refusals to reveal what Davis was supposed to be doing. 

The facts are few and mysterious. Davis, 36, an employee at the American consulate in Lahore, was driving through town with a fully loaded Glock automatic pistol. Two men approached his car on a motor bike, Davis says, with intent to rob him. They were found later to have stolen cellphones. 

Davis opened up on them with his Glock through the windshield and killed them both. Then he apparently stepped out of his car and photographed their dead bodies before he sped away. He was later arrested. 

The case was further complicated when another car sped out of the consulate, apparently coming to Davis&#8217; rescue, killed a Pakistani on a bicycle and sped back to the consulate. Neither the car nor the driver have been produced for the Pakistani authorities to question or inspect. 

The Americans claim diplomatic immunity for Davis under Geneva Convention rules, and they are right by their lights. But Pakistani law says that Pakistan has a say in who has diplomatic immunity and who does not, and Pakistan deserves a full explanation. 

There the matter stands, with the Pakistani courts threatening to try Davis for murder. The prosecution is saying that the shootings were not in self-defense. The Americans are hinting darkly that Pakistan will suffer dire consequences, canceled visits to Washington and a cut in financial aid. 

In the meantime Pakistan is in a spasm of anti-American fury. The question of what an American &#8220;diplomat&#8221; was doing with a loaded gun, ready to use it, in the streets of a Pakistani city needs a lot more daylight than the Americans are providing. 

And, yes, it turns out that Davis was not a member of the U.S. Foreign Service, but a gun-for-hire private operative attached to the &#8220;technical and administrative&#8221; staff of the consulate, according to the U.S. Embassy. 

We all know that the business of private security has ballooned in recent years under very lucrative government contracts. The employees are often Americans, Britons and South Africans with military experience who can put their training to work for a great deal more money than usually awaits them in a fully civilian job. We also know that with U.S. forces stretched to the breaking point, these mercenaries, unhappily, play a major role in guarding American installations and embassies abroad that were once guarded only by U.S. Marines. 

But in case after case, these private operatives have used lethal &#8212; and not always justified &#8212; force, and it is not clear whose laws they are under. Hamid Karzai tried to have them all fired from Afghanistan, but couldn&#8217;t do it, so important were these private guns to the American war effort. 

The case of Raymond Davis plunged into even deeper mystery when the Pakistanis say they found maps on him of high security installations. The Pakistanis are suggesting he may have known the men whom he killed. The Americans, in the meantime, refuse any further explanation of his activities. The Lahore High Court won&#8217;t let the Pakistani government turn him over to the U.S. Embassy until they have ruled on his diplomatic status. 

The Davis killings have resonance with a population already infuriated by the frequent drone attacks that often kill as many bystanders as militants. What is &#8220;collateral damage&#8221; to Americans is extra-judicial murder to many Pakistanis. The image of the careless American gunslinger is ingrained around the world through our greatest cultural export, the movies. 

The best outcome would be for the Pakistanis to hand Davis over to the Americans under the terms of the Geneva Conventions, with the Americans giving a full explanation of what Davis was doing, and a worldwide crackdown on these private operatives who kill again and again with impunity or immunity. 

And America should stop threatening Pakistan with loss of aid. The aid serves U.S. interests, not just Pakistan&#8217;s. 




http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/opinion/15iht-edgreenway15.html

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## AstanoshKhan

*Davis enjoys diplomatic immunity: Fauzia Wahab*

Updated at 1725 PST Monday, February 14, 2011







KARACHI: Secretary Information Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) Fauzia Wahab has said that Raymond Davis, accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, enjoyed diplomatic immunity, Geo News reported on Monday.

Addressing a press conference at Karachi Press Club, Fauzia Wahab said that Pakistan is the signatory of Vienna Convention, therefore, all the diplomats enjoy immunity, adding that diplomats cannot be arrested under this convention.

She said that Davis possess diplomatic passport, therefore, he enjoys immunity.

Fauzia Wahab further said that United States is the biggest market of Pakistani products. A large number of Pakistanis are living there, she said and added that 80 percent remittance of Pakistan came from the US.(GEO URDU)

Davis enjoys diplomatic immunity: Fauzia Wahab


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## Aslan

Fauzia should have said that US is the biggest market for the watan faroosh's.

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## Paan Singh

this guy will be released sooner or later,but his release will have an impact on pakistan sure


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## AstanoshKhan

*Davis row: &#8216;God is giving us chance to get rid of US slavery&#8217;*

Jamaat-ud-Dawah chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed said the killing of two Pakistani men by US official Raymond Davis was a &#8220;God-given opportunity&#8221; for the country to get rid of the slavery imposed on it by the US.






*Addressing a Friday prayer congregation at a mosque at the JuD&#8217;s headquarters in Chauburji in Lahore, Saeed said: &#8220;God has given us an opportunity to get rid of America&#8217;s slavery. We should be united in the face of American imperialism.&#8221;*

*Saeed, warned the Pakistan government not to hand over Davis to the US. &#8221;If the government yields to American pressure, it will face the wrath of the people,&#8221; he said. The Pakistani people were &#8220;very emotional&#8221; over the issue and will not allow the government to &#8220;sell the blood of its citizens&#8221;, he said.
*
The JuD also organised a rally in Lahore to press the government not to release Davis. A large number of JuD activists and traders joined the rally held at Hall Road and vent their anger against the US and the Pakistani governments.

Davis was arrested after he shot and killed two alleged robbers in Lahore on January 27. He claimed he had acted in self-defence as the two men were trying to rob him. However, Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen today said Davis had been booked for murder. Davis was sent to jail after a court remanded him to judicial custody for a fortnight this morning.

The JuD has been at the forefront of protests organised in several parts of Pakistan to pressure the government not to release Davis.

Davis row: 'God is giving us chance to get rid of US slavery'


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

SO basically they just have to inform the courts of the determination and then the accused will be released or the court is going to look into the matter on its own now?


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## The HBS Guy

AstanoshKhan said:


> *Davis row: God is giving us chance to get rid of US slavery*
> 
> Jamaat-ud-Dawah chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed said the killing of two Pakistani men by US official Raymond Davis was a God-given opportunity for the country to get rid of the slavery imposed on it by the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Addressing a Friday prayer congregation at a mosque at the JuDs headquarters in Chauburji in Lahore, Saeed said: God has given us an opportunity to get rid of Americas slavery. We should be united in the face of American imperialism.*
> 
> *Saeed, warned the Pakistan government not to hand over Davis to the US. If the government yields to American pressure, it will face the wrath of the people, he said. The Pakistani people were very emotional over the issue and will not allow the government to sell the blood of its citizens, he said.
> *
> The JuD also organised a rally in Lahore to press the government not to release Davis. A large number of JuD activists and traders joined the rally held at Hall Road and vent their anger against the US and the Pakistani governments.
> 
> Davis was arrested after he shot and killed two alleged robbers in Lahore on January 27. He claimed he had acted in self-defence as the two men were trying to rob him. However, Lahore police chief Aslam Tareen today said Davis had been booked for murder. Davis was sent to jail after a court remanded him to judicial custody for a fortnight this morning.
> 
> The JuD has been at the forefront of protests organised in several parts of Pakistan to pressure the government not to release Davis.
> 
> Davis row: 'God is giving us chance to get rid of US slavery'


 
Hafiz Sayeed! Aahaa! What an ideal example to follow!


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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> Hafiz Sayeed! Aahaa! What an ideal example to follow!


If modi's example can be recommended to follow by the fellow indians then whats wrong in folowing hafiz saeed's example.

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## The HBS Guy

ajtr said:


> If modi's example can be recommended to follow by the fellow indians then whats wrong in folowing hafiz saeed's example.


 
Of course nothing. When did I say there was? He IS the perfect example for Pakistanis to follow.

What better could I wish upon Pakistan? I so solemnly wish that Pakistanis follow Hafiz Sayeed.


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## khurasaan1

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> The truth is "Iraq has Weapons of mass distraction and Raymond Davis is a diplomat".
> Well might is right and world believe even when US lie. if you have spine to say the truth you will lose your job and that's what happened to Ex-Pakistani FM.
> Well US likes spine less people and they should be on top of Pakistan as elites.


 
Dont worry we will surprise the evil US with spines this time he will never even dream of..Insha-Allah...


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## Durrak

KARACHI: A spokeswoman for Pakistans main ruling party on Monday moved to dilute anger over a US official accused of murdering two Pakistanis, saying diplomats have immunity and that he had an official visa.

Pakistans ties with the United States have gone into crisis since police arrested Raymond Davis, who confessed to killing two men in self-defence on a busy street in the eastern city of Lahore on January 27.

Washington supports his claim and says he is a diplomat who should be released immediately in keeping with international law.

We have always abided by international laws and conventions, Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) spokeswoman Fauzia Wahab told reporters in Karachi.

Davis has an official business visa, so why argue and why we are risking our overall good reputation before the rest of the world?

America is the largest market for Pakistan, with whom we earn four billion dollars. Most Pakistanis who live in the United States send bulk of remittances to us to support our economy, said Wahab.


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## fida jan

ajtr said:


> If modi's example can be recommended to follow by the fellow indians then whats wrong in folowing hafiz saeed's example.


 
hafi saaed is not a criminal like modi who is a killer and a terrorist. hafiz saaed has been tried in court and found innocent


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The more I think about this issue and look at the reaction of the united states---the more I am convinced that the U S has a concern---and that is of " SETTING OF A PRECEDENCE"----davis is basically an illegal---someone who does the dirty work for the state----happened in afg---happened in iraq and many other places, but got caught in the open by the police or public like this one.

If pak govt decides to do something about it---all the poor nations of the third world will grow a stronger spine----and the super powers don't like that to happen---even if the U S has to make an example out of pakistran---it will do so---.

Because if the U S lets pak get away with it---then they have cut their own legs and the legs of their operatives-----. Pakistan on the other hand needs to understand the consequences very well---which---I believe from the past experiences---they are not in a mental position to analyze what could be forthcoming---or what will happen after the fact.

This issue doesnot pertain to pakistan alone---it will change the way U S operatives work overseas---a country like pakistan need not fight the wars for the other third world countries---it has enough troubles of its own creation---pakistan needs to find reason witin all these screams of blood letting.

When would you learn----when the united states makes a precision strike on one of the sensitive locations.

Pakistanis sound like their counterparts the palestinians----every time the palestinians raised a hue and cry---they lost more to their opponent---pakistan does the same to itself in a different manner---after 8 years of war on terror they just begun to realize that suicide bombers are a bad thing for the people and nation---8 years people 8 years it took you to wake up---what does it say about your assessment capabilities---on a grade of 1----100----you may give yourself a failing grade of 10----THAT IS WHERE YOU STAND INTELLECTUALLY.

So---please my pakistani colleagues----trust me----it is beyond your PAY GRADE to understand the significance and the consequences of pursuing the Davis issue any further than it deserves.

You can dig a little deeper and see what his connection were with the taliban and what he was upto---but when it comes to prosecution----you may sentence him----but then expel him from the country declaring him a persona non grata. Governments come and governments go---it is not the first time that it may happen to PPP and it will not be the last time that it will happen to them or to others.

Raymond Davis is not worth taking the wrath of the americans at this time or at any other time.

You have a BLACK president in U S A----who has been extremely poor in managing the country----found out that he is just talk and blabber just like most other blacks and nary a substance----pretty much a failure till this time---why should pakistan give him a crutch to stand up on---he desperately needs a punching bag---he is looking to break some SPINES---- he wants to make some people spineless cowards after he is done with them---. He ratings have suffered badly and he is looking for an opening to do something to prop himself up.

Pakistan on the other hand has been prepared very well by the american media to be taken out now----the steak has been marinated and just needs to be put on the grill----just waiting for the grill to get to the right temperature---.

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## Sinnerman108

MK .. you seldom venture in political threads.

First you say 


> -on a grade of 1----100----you may give yourself a failing grade of 10----THAT IS WHERE YOU STAND INTELLECTUALLY.



Then you start 



> So---please my pakistani colleagues----trust me



Contradiction in thinking, 
So, after your degree of intellect I suppose you are working up for masters in in-senstive arrogance ?



> it is beyond your PAY GRADE to understand the significance and the consequences of pursuing the Davis issue any further than it deserves.


Now that is just down right abusive ! 
an apology is well warranted as far as I think.



> You have a BLACK president in U S A----who has been extremely poor in managing the country----found out that he is just talk and blabber just like most other blacks and nary a substance----pretty much a failure till this time---why should pakistan give him a crutch to stand up on---he desperately needs a punching bag---he is looking to break some SPINES---- he wants to make some people spineless cowards after he is done with them---. He ratings have suffered badly and he is looking for an opening to do something to prop himself up.



Looking at last quarter's ending, and expected figures from first quarter 2011, the economy is back up, and consumer confidence is growing.
Once americans start spending, I doubt they will notice color of their president as long as green color is in their pockets.

Kindly review your figures before you post.



> Pakistan on the other hand has been prepared very well by the american media to be taken out now----the steak has been marinated and just needs to be put on the grill----just waiting for the grill to get to the right temperature---



Thank you very much for letting us know of our certain doom. Enjoy the steaks !


All in all, I would say a rather ill informed, arrogant and baseless post specially so considering the age group you are in.

Looking at the american & Pakistani flag in your profile, I feel insulted ... always thought of my self as a hard working ex-pat who makes it his duty to keep the flag high, and my country proud.

I guess Pakistan needs to be cleansed of people like you.

Please remove the Pakistan flag from your profile.


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## AstanoshKhan



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## Areesh

The HBS Guy said:


> Of course nothing. When did I say there was? He IS the perfect example for Pakistanis to follow.
> 
> What better could I wish upon Pakistan? I so solemnly wish that Pakistanis follow Hafiz Sayeed.


 
You might seldom wish Pakistanis to follow Hafiz Saeed but I always wish Indians to follow modi.


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## Areesh

Aslan said:


> Fauzia should have said that US is the biggest market for the watan faroosh's.


 
And that I have also been sold out so no need to bid for me...

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Confused and useless government flip flopping and trying to have It both ways alert!

Wahab&#8217;s statement is not party policy: Babar &#8211; The Express Tribune

Will we see a similar tirade against Fauzia, as we saw against Qureshi, by the PPP for speaking out of turn and 'breaking party discipline'?

Or is it just reserved for those breaking party discipline by advocating for the rule of law?

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## Machoman

KARACHI: Indian authorities on Monday released Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan and two of his associates, said an Indian TV channel.

Khan was detained at the Indira Gandhi International Airport on Sunday evening for carrying a huge amount of foreign currency.

According to sources, Khans passport and other relevant documents have been impounded by the government and he was asked to appear before the Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI) on Feb 17.

Earlier, the officials of Pakistan High Commission reached the office of DRI to meet the singer but the authorities denied access to the star.


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## Machoman

What a shame by Indians....


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## fida jan

self delete


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## Machoman

NEW DELHI: Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan was arrested by Directorate of Revenue Intelligence (DRI) on Monday, a day after he was detained at the international airport in New Delhi for carrying undisclosed foreign currency worth more than $100,000, an official said. ( Read: Pakistan seeks release of Rahat Fateh Ali Khan ) 

"He has been arrested and will be produced in Patiala House court later today (Monday)," a DRI official said. Rahat had been taken to the DRI office at the CGO Complex on Sunday after he was detained at New Delhi's Indira Gandhi International Airport on Sunday. 

Earlier in the day, the singer was extensively questioned by revenue intelligence officials. ( Read: Pak seeks info about Rahat Fateh Ali Khan's detention in India ) 

He was on his way back to Pakistan after attending concerts and award functions in India. More than $100,000 were recovered from the 15-member troupe. Any amount in excess of $10,000 has to be declared by a traveller to the customs. ( Read: Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan detained at IGI with $1.24lakh ) 

According to officials, Rahat was questioned by senior DRI officials till late Sunday night. 

Rahat is the nephew of legendary singer late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and is popular both in India and Pakistan. His numerous hit songs from Indian films are a rage on both sides of the border, for which he has won several awards, including the recent Filmfare award for "Dil to Bacha Hai Jee". He was also a judge on the Indian music reality show "Chhote Ustad". 

Pakistan has begun frantic efforts to secure the release of the singer. Pakistan foreign secretary Salman Bashir called Indian High Commissioner in Islamabad Sharat Sabharwal and discussed the matter around midnight on Sunday. He requested the Indian envoy to ensure that "no official should misbehave with Rahat during interrogation".


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## Machoman

after this Amman ki asha gai teel lainay....


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## AstanoshKhan

Look what is she saying "even the technical and administrative staff has the immunity."


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## fida jan

she is a jahil aurat nothing more...


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## Bilal Akhtar

well he got what he deserved ..WHY did he NOT use credit card/travel cards/online banking etc he could have easily gotten away LOL


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## notsuperstitious

Machoman said:


> after this Amman ki asha gai teel lainay....


 
Aman Ki Asha offered him immunity from exchange control, income tax and other laws in India?

If not, then you are only venting whats inside you, not commenting on the news.


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## Hulk

Yes shame because as a Pakistani, he should be above law.


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## Paan Singh

indianrabbit said:


> Yes shame because as a Pakistani, he should be above law.


 
RAW finally did this


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## Bilal Akhtar

AMAN KI ASHA gave him everything except respect...


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## fida jan

pakistanis should stop visiting hindutwa land


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The more I think about this issue and look at the reaction of the united states---the more I am convinced that the U S has a concern---and that is of " SETTING OF A PRECEDENCE"----davis is basically an illegal---someone who does the dirty work for the state----happened in afg---happened in iraq and many other places, but got caught in the open by the police or public like this one.
> 
> If pak govt decides to do something about it---all the poor nations of the third world will grow a stronger spine----and the super powers don't like that to happen---even if the U S has to make an example out of pakistran---it will do so---.
> 
> Because if the U S lets pak get away with it---then they have cut their own legs and the legs of their operatives-----. Pakistan on the other hand needs to understand the consequences very well---which---I believe from the past experiences---they are not in a mental position to analyze what could be forthcoming---or what will happen after the fact.
> 
> This issue doesnot pertain to pakistan alone---it will change the way U S operatives work overseas---a country like pakistan need not fight the wars for the other third world countries---it has enough troubles of its own creation---pakistan needs to find reason witin all these screams of blood letting.
> 
> When would you learn----when the united states makes a precision strike on one of the sensitive locations.
> 
> Pakistanis sound like their counterparts the palestinians----every time the palestinians raised a hue and cry---they lost more to their opponent---pakistan does the same to itself in a different manner---after 8 years of war on terror they just begun to realize that suicide bombers are a bad thing for the people and nation---8 years people 8 years it took you to wake up---what does it say about your assessment capabilities---on a grade of 1----100----you may give yourself a failing grade of 10----THAT IS WHERE YOU STAND INTELLECTUALLY.
> 
> So---please my pakistani colleagues----trust me----it is beyond your PAY GRADE to understand the significance and the consequences of pursuing the Davis issue any further than it deserves.
> 
> You can dig a little deeper and see what his connection were with the taliban and what he was upto---but when it comes to prosecution----you may sentence him----but then expel him from the country declaring him a persona non grata. Governments come and governments go---it is not the first time that it may happen to PPP and it will not be the last time that it will happen to them or to others.
> 
> Raymond Davis is not worth taking the wrath of the americans at this time or at any other time.
> 
> You have a BLACK president in U S A----who has been extremely poor in managing the country----found out that he is just talk and blabber just like most other blacks and nary a substance----pretty much a failure till this time---why should pakistan give him a crutch to stand up on---he desperately needs a punching bag---he is looking to break some SPINES---- he wants to make some people spineless cowards after he is done with them---. He ratings have suffered badly and he is looking for an opening to do something to prop himself up.
> 
> Pakistan on the other hand has been prepared very well by the american media to be taken out now----the steak has been marinated and just needs to be put on the grill----just waiting for the grill to get to the right temperature---.


 
wao, what a seemingly biased argument ... Yeah we should be like those bloody Realistic people. So its not that America afterall which has true intentions of world peace , but only one desire and that is everything should go its way no matter what, there are no ifs and buts ... Thers no reason for Pakistanis to belive in American efforts to build trust and improve its image in Pakistan, Its all just bullcrap when they say, we are your strategik Partners,We want to help Pakistani People, Help!! By launching helfirs and sending in mercenaries of some Christian cult controlled by corporate saints to kill innocent people out of cold blood, We want to help you root out religious fundamentalism and Extremism in the light of which they are unleashing attacks upon the Religion , George Bush rightly said it that ITS A CRUSAD a war on Islam.. A super power waging war on ISLAM and attacking the only Muslim country being founded in the name of Islam theyl prove it , there are making an example out of it by launching a multi pronged war against it. 
No wonder its the same Dajjal which would have an all seeing eye , the Anti Christ who would literally rule the world and would even make the dead live through advances in biological sciences of course , And the jews will be doublecrossed bigtime.
Raymond Davis should be hanged, if not then atleast i wish another fanatic should rise up to the occasion as in case of Taseer. Taseer was good guy btw.And then we could say , We Regret this Sad incident..!!!!


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## Machoman

Same thing happend to SRK and you people all start jumping but now just because it's Pakistani guy situation is different. thanks

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## blackops

Dude rule are rule


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## Aslan

No we should after all be worried more about a black mans health his ratings and the fact that the poor soul is considered weak in his own country and thus we should make him a hero at the expense of some dead Pakistanis. Also not to forget that as some people are worried about the fact that this might set a wrong precedent, and many a nations will bully the americans to which they are at fault at the first place. And if they are so worried about their people then they shouldnt act as every ones father and start shooting and harrasing people even in their countries. What about the trend it is going to set for any tom, d!ck and harry I mean any gora to come to our country and shoot some Pakistanis in the name of self defense.


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## JanjaWeed

Machoman said:


> Same thing happend to SRK and you people all start jumping but now just because it's Pakistani guy situation is different. thanks


 
c'mon.. that's like comparing apples & oranges!! SRK didn't break any law of US land, whereas this guy broke the law point blank. i know it doesn't look good to see one of the hero's of your country gets apprehended by the law enforcement agency of another country.. specially by the one which is considered as a nemesis. this guy should have been clever enough to guard his reputation, knowing full well that any sort of misadventure could snowball into a diplomatic hot potato!!


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## JonAsad

Ms Fauzia Wahab's statement was her personal opinion-- not the party official stand--


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## Bilal Akhtar

Rules are rules man how DARE he break them


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## Bilal Akhtar

i think he should settle in mumbai now ,,,he can buy a flat with all that money


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

AstanoshKhan said:


> Look what is she saying "even the technical and administrative staff has the immunity."



For the love of God, who the Fcuk cares what this lowlife is saying. If that would have been true, Qureshi wouldnt been removed ... Bhuttos PPP is dead ... ! Long liv the PPP ...


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## JonAsad

RAW failed again-- RAW should have collaborated with CIA and should have used his arrest to put pressure on Pakistan- Demanding the release of Raymond Davis--


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## pak-marine

govt is rather confused , the tactic is give a statement measure response .... wtf !? why cant the geniuses in the govt figure out for once what to do and stand by it

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## desioptimist

According to NDTV, he told during interrogation that he is a school drop-out and not familiar with law.
Pakistani singer Rahat Fateh Ali Khan released


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## ares

Glorious Resolve said:


> RAW failed again-- RAW should have collaborated with CIA and should have used his arrest to put pressure on Pakistan- Demanding the release of Raymond Davis--


 
Don't count your Chickens as of yet ..I mean he is still here in India naa, maybe it can be still arranged!!..Infact I like your thinking..How quick you were to relate the two cases...so Every Pakistani abroad should be arrested by the respective governments, demanding the release of Raymond Davis.


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## Bilal Akhtar

keep him there we dont want him...


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## desioptimist

Bilal Akhtar said:


> keep him there we dont want him...


 
Yes, we are keeping him, thanks.
You can take Himesh Reshammiya in exchange.


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## JonAsad

ares said:


> Don't count your Chickens as of yet ..I mean he is still here in India naa, maybe it can be still arranged!!..Infact I like your thinking..How quick you were to relate the two cases...so Every Pakistani abroad should be arrested by the respective governments, demanding the release of Raymond Davis.



Naaa- incase you didn't noticed yet-- i was joking- but the covert message is delivered, work on it


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## JonAsad

pak-marine said:


> govt is rather confused , the tactic is give a statement measure response .... wtf !? why cant the geniuses in the govt figure out for once what to do and stand by it


 
The old tug of war is on between PPP and PML-N--

PPP is in very awkward position now-- and PML is taking full advantage of it-

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal




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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal




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## DV RULES

Civilized style to fix rate of nationalism.


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## Mutee

Why is this mr mastan is insulting us all I think he isn't very proud to be a Pakistani or maybe he's just arrogant but a very misinformed arrogant I must say


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## pak-marine

Glorious Resolve said:


> The old tug of war is on between PPP and PML-N--
> 
> PPP is in very awkward position now-- and PML is taking full advantage of it-


 

ridiculous this is ... what about pakistan ? they are making the country look like a joke ... is it the lack of skilled diplomats and policy makers ?

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## DV RULES

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> For the love of God, who the Fcuk cares what this lowlife is saying. If that would have been true, Qureshi wouldnt been removed ... Bhuttos PPP is dead ... ! Long liv the PPP ...


 
Looks like PPP is going for its end of session. She didn't only explain weak motives in securing national interests but convey message that PPP doesn't deserve leading Party of Pakistan. Worst PPP member ever observed.


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## RabzonKhan

From their belongings, one thing is quite clear now that they were not working for the ISI.



* Raymond Davis tried to trick investigators*

Daily Times
February 15, 2011

By Raja Riaz

LAHORE: The challan submitted by the city police against US national Raymond Allen Davis in a court reveals that the accused tried to cheat the police by concealing the facts. 

The challan reads that Davis continuously told lies to the investigation team and completely refused to help them reach the facts, saying that the American consulate had directed him not to reply to any query of the police.

The text of the incomplete challan submitted in the court is being produced here: 

The case was handed over to Lytton Road Police Station In-charge Investigation Inspector Muneer Ahmad. During the investigation, the inspector took the dead bodies of the two (victims of Davis)  Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad  from the emergency ward of the Services Hospital and in the guard of policemen sent them to the mortuary. Lytton Road Police Station *SHO, Atif Meraj Khan, took the belongings of the dead and other material in his custody and got them registered in fardats (the relevant papers) and handed over to the investigation officer. The detail of the things is as follows: one belt, one pistol pouch, one handbag, two wallets, five mobile phones (Nokia 18910, Samsung, A1303, Sony Ericsson T 700, Nokia 1616, 6300), Pakistani and foreign currency (Yen 58,915, Omani Baisa 1100, Piso 10), two national identity cards bearing Faizan Haider and Zohra Shahzads names and different pieces of papers. Later, the IO visited the crime spot and took in possession the following things: the deceased persons Honda motorcycle bearing number LOV 4030, the blood of the two deceased on cotton buds, two pistols of 30 bore belonging to the deceased, pieces of shattered windowpanes of the accuseds vehicle, two empties, a 9mm pistol.* 

They were sealed and registered in relevant documents. The IO drew a rough sketch of the crime scene and recorded the statements of eyewitnesses. The witnesses said that the accused first shot at the deceased from inside his car and then came out of the car and fired two shots at Faizan Haider from the back. He took pictures of the dead Faheem and then called someone through his wireless to rescue him. The witnesses, traffic wardens Muhammad Hussain and Waqas Khaliq, told the IO that when the accused (whose name, according to his passport, is Raymond Allen Davis) ran from the crime scene in his car (Honda VTI) bearing number LEC-10/5545, they chased him and managed to overpower him at Old Anarkali Chowk and with the help of local police handed him over to Old Anarkali circle DSP, Raza Safdar Kazmi. The police also took in possession the following things from the custody of the accused: 9 mm Glock pistol, five magazines, 78 live bullets of 9mm, a passport, a long-range wireless set, global positioning system (GPS) with charger. From the car of the accused, the police took in possession the vehicles registration book, four empties of 9mm, two mobile phones, a telescope, an infrared light, a digital camera, a cutter, head torch, small torch, survival kit, memory card, 19 cards of different nature, a packet of niswar, Rs 5,805 and $126 in cash, ATM card, a PIA ticket, receipts of money changer and Bank Al-Falah, chit of the embassy, blank cheque of Federal Saving Bank, USA, etc. 

All things were recorded while the two traffic wardens signed the papers as witnesses. The IO collected all these things from the custody of the Old Anarkali circle DSP and now this all material is being sent to the federal government through the Ministry of Interior for action and research. The DSP handed over a hand-written statement of the accused, written in the presence of the DSP, to the investigation officer. This statement reads that when the accused halted his car at the traffic signal of Qartaba Chowk, one of the two motorcyclists pulled his pistol at him. He took out his pistol and fired at them in self-defence. The driver of the motorcycle ran away and the second fell on the motorcycle. He came out of the car and took three pictures of the boy and informed his embassy for his rescue. He also said that when people gathered he managed to escape with his car. 

The investigation officer inquired from the accused and he verified his statement word to word. The accused was officially taken into custody in this case and was shifted to a safe place for his security. A Land Cruiser which came to rescue Davis violated the one-way and ran over a citizen Ibadur Rehman. The Land Cruiser, which had a fake number plate, LZN-6970, while moving recklessly went to the US consulate. Different things fell off the Land Cruiser, and were found near the Falettis Hotel and Shimla Hill. These included: four magazines, 100 bullets, four battery cells, a scissor, a pair of gloves, compass with knife, battery, black coloured mask, a piece of cloth having American flag, special battery, small stick with pouch, a piece of iron, cloth bandage, a cloth magazine bag. 

The FIR number 48/11 was registered on January 27 in the Lytton Road Police Station under Sections 302/34/427. On January 29, the dead bodies of the deceased - Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad - were handed over to their families after autopsy for burial. The accused, Raymond Davis, was produced in the court of Muhammad Zafar Iqbal Sial, judicial magistrate, with the written permission of district and sessions judge, Lahore. Davis was remanded for six days. The special investigation team formed to look into the case interrogated the accused and he could not produce licence of the pistol and another case, 49/11 of carrying illegal weapon was registered against him. The map of the crime scene was made. The postmortem reports of the deceased were received and according to that report the deceased Faizan Haider received five arm injuries. Two injuries were on the backside left buttock near the spinal cord and three in the front - right side of the chest, two on the left thigh. The deceased Faheem also got five arm injuries  two injuries on the back side in lumber area. One bullet entered the left elbow and crossed in front, second entered in the head from the upper side of the ear and third entered from the left side of the belly and came out from the right and another bullet hit the left thigh. The parcels of the material related to the case have been submitted to a chemical examiner and the Forensic Science Laboratory.

The car used by the accused is the property of one Sohail Nisar, a resident of Gulberg, who has given it to a company Capital Car Rental and the company has given it on rent to American consulate on annual basis. The car has also been sent for forensic examination. On 11 February, on the conclusion of physical remand, the accused is being sent to jail on judicial remand. 

During investigations it has come to light that the stance of the accused that he fired in self-defence is not correct on the following grounds: The postmortem report says that (1) Faizan and Faheem received three injuries each from the back side. (2) witnesses say that the accused fired at Faizan Haider at a time when he left the motorcycle and ran to save his life (3) the accused himself admitted that he fired at Faizan from the back when he was running (4) two empties recovered from the crime scene prove that the accused fired at the deceased after coming out of the car (5) the accused claims that one of the deceased cocked his pistol and pointed at him while the investigations reveal the chamber of the deceaseds pistol were empty and the bullets were in the magazine. And no one saw them aiming at the accused. (6) if the accused had to fire in self-defence he could fire at the lower part or legs of the deceased as he was an expert at using arms. 

The accused has said in his written statement that he was coming from the embassy while the GPS record says that he was coming from his private residence at Scotch Corner, Upper Mall. The accused has concealed the fact. He refused to reply to any question during investigations, saying the American consulate had forbidden him to answer any question. 

The blood samples are examined and proved that it is human blood. A forensic expert has confirmed that the empties had been fired from the same pistol recovered from the possession of the accused. The statements of the witnesses, recovery of weapon, and other evidences prove that the accused Raymond Allen Davis is guilty of committing a crime under section 302 of the Code of Criminal Procedure and an incomplete challan is being submitted against him. It is requested that the case be heard.

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## DV RULES

Mutee said:


> Why is this mr mastan is insulting us all I think he isn't very proud to be a Pakistani or maybe he's just arrogant but a very misinformed arrogant I must say


 
Fear & pressure is a great combination, and someone got into.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

pak-marine said:


> ridiculous this is ... what about pakistan ? they are making the country look like a joke ... is it the lack of skilled diplomats and policy makers ?


 
Why drag the PML-N into this? AFAIK they haven't issued any statements warning the PPP against granting Davis immunity - they have pretty much left the decision in the hands of the GOP, as they should, since this is a Federal matter in the hands of the Foreign Ministry experts.

It is the PPP that is taking its sweet time announcing Davis's status, ostensibly because the Foreign Ministry has refused to endorse immunity for Davis, and the US is threatening the GOP with 'consequences' if Davis isn't granted immunity.

Tough spot to be in, but that is what you get when you are running the government. Make a decision and face the consequences either way.

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## RabzonKhan

*The Ghairat Brigades and the truth*

Dawn
Kamran Shafi
Feb 15 2011

*THE Ghairat Brigades are in overdrive over the Davis issue. Raucous news items are appearing in Ghairatmand newspapers and TV channels over how even the police are convinced that the man is a cold-blooded murderer who shot two innocent young Pakistanis minding their own business on a bright afternoon at one of Lahores busiest traffic junctions.*

*Of course, as is the Ghairat Brigades (and their handmaidens) wont, truth has nothing to do with anything so long as their needs are served  in this case to fan the flames of anti-Americanism come hell or high water. As just one example, there is no longer any mention on any of the channels or newspapers about the first reports describing the two men as armed robbers who had, just prior to being shot, robbed mobile telephones from two people in the same area.*

Indeed, news items told us last week that when they were taken to hospital, the two phones which had been robbed were recovered from the persons of the dead men. More than anything else there is no attempt on the part of the police to investigate Daviss motive for killing these two heroes. From what we know, now buttressed by the CPO Lahores statement in a press conference that there was no self-defence involved, we can only surmise that Davis is a lunatic who just got it into his head to kill two young men in broad daylight, while he was stuck in a traffic jam.

Yes, the man should be stark raving mad to have done what he did (for no reason at all) for he could have been lynched there and then. After all, barring Somalia, Pakistan must number at the very top of the list of countries where mob justice leading to sure lynching has become the norm. Which reminds me: the traffic wardens who arrested Davis should be awarded medals for doing their duty diligently and keeping him safe from bodily harm from the mob that had gathered.

Let us take another example of the media trial of other players who have become involved in this affair, *our ambassador in the United States leading, who is being pilloried mercilessly for issuing visas to Americans without informing other state agencies, specially the Mother of All Agencies.*

*This is poppycock of the worst kind for several reasons, the first being that all visas issued  including those without prior approval  are reported to the Ministry of Interior which then shares the lists with the other agencies concerned. It is inconceivable that an agency that routinely causes the disappearance of people, that rides roughshod over other institutions of state, particularly civilian institutions, that roughs up and thrashes people at will, that is accused of the most vile actions in Balochistan, and that virtually dictates this poor countrys foreign policy such as it is, should not know about Davis and his fellow travellers.*

*It is a travesty of the worst kind to put all the blame for the various security contractors serving American needs on the present government alone. These operators first came to this country in the early days of the war on terror when the Commando was ruling the roost with the help, aid, political machinations and shenanigans of the Mother of All Agencies. If Aabpara did not know the extent of the protocols exchanged with the Americans, who did? And all this helped in American lucre in the billions of dollars being showered upon the dictator and on the armed forces. So lets get off this one, gentlemen, shall we?*

Before moving on, let me give one more example of the skulduggery at work. About two years ago a scandal to do with a security company called Inter-risk broke in our Ghairatmand press. *One of the charges laid against the then newly elected government was that it had allowed Americans, probably of the security firm then known as Blackwater, space at the Police Training College, Sihala, from where the Americans were spying on our bum factory etcetera. It turned out that the Americans had indeed been given accommodation in the police college by the Commandos government, kindly note, and that they were training the Islamabad police in anti-terrorism SOPs. So there.*

Every anchor on our screeching channels is fatuously demanding that ayeen (the constitution) and qanoon (the law) be strictly followed when it comes to Davis, with not a thought about our sordid history of almost never following the ayeen and qanoon where it did not suit the Deep State. Recall Zulfikar Ali Bhuttos judicial murder and his subsequent burial attended by ten people, Larkana being surrounded by a whole army brigade, and which even his wife and daughter were not allowed to attend? Now juxtapose this with the funeral of Maulana Rashid Ghazi (of the Red Mosque fame), attended by 50,000 people after his body was ferried to DG Khan via a government helicopter.

ZAB had been the elected president and prime minister of this country, who pulled it out of the bog into which it had been thrust. He gave our armed forces their pride back by banning anti-military talk on pain of imprisonment; he gave our people hope. Maulana Ghazi was a rebel against the state, occupying state property and killing the states servants  the police and the Rangers. Where was the ayeen, where the qanoon then? Where indeed is the ayeen and the qanoon when it comes to Salman Taseers murderer, to prosecute whom has become a major problem for this government because it cannot find a prosecutor?

*Let the law take its course but let us at least accept that we live off America. Let us accept the fact that it has come to our aid whenever we have been in trouble, whether helping in the aftermath of the Kargil adventure or sending its helicopters to fly hundreds of sorties helping in relief efforts after our devastating earthquake and floods.*

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## Developereo

Mutee said:


> Why is this mr mastan is insulting us all I think he isn't very proud to be a Pakistani or maybe he's just arrogant but a very misinformed arrogant I must say


 
As much as we are all angry about this killer walking free, MastanKhan is right in his analysis. In our calmer moments we know that we cannot play chicken with the US. The better approach is to work on our domestic situation (economy, politicians, etc.) to make ourselves stronger.

One thing we have achieved is to expose the US policy of using diplomatic cover for covert operations. The next time an American operative is apprehended anywhere in the world, he will likely fall victim to an 'accident' before the matter even reaches official channels. People will work on the basis of "it's easier to get forgiveness than to get permission".

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## Mutee

Sir ur right that we need to work on economy but tell me jub tam hum log America ki turf dekhtay rehayn gay or ghulam rehangay Kia economy better hogi? Ya ghulami abb khutum kurni hogi werna Pakistan Aisa he reh gay Davis or no Davis but I see it as a step towards freedom of Pakistan enuf is enuf or ya Konsay pay grade ke baat ker rha hai I am not a student jitney $$$ usay mil rhay hain na he should come here and work for me I will give him more and there are 10000 like me who is he to underestimate us a whole nation Sir bast yah hai idher Pakistan def pay log islsmmki insult Murray Bain Pakistan ki insult Murray hain racism kurtay hain or owner says nothing abhi few days say kuch change ahi hai but I feel senior member ko sub much Kenna allow hai woo kuch be kehay yesterday a member was warned cuz he was fighting aethists who was attacking our GOd ya sub Kia hai ? And Pakistan and it's pol can live and survive without us aid Best regards


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## T-Rex

The HBS Guy said:


> Hafiz Sayeed! Aahaa! What an ideal example to follow!



The masters of Abu Gharib are the ideal examples for people like you, I suppose!


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## T-Rex

Solomon2 said:


> Which police report? The first one in which the police immediately asserted they killed men were known robbers, or the police report in court after the incident had become politicized so no official _dared_ stand up for the Americans out of fear of violence or a maimed career? Isn't this similar to what happened after Mumbai, when the local Pakistani police quickly determined the home village of the surviving attacker (link) but were then compelled to clam up for months?
> 
> Perhaps now these Pakistanis feel that now they have nukes they can ignore such things, or make their own rules, or re-write the existing ones? I consider this evidence they don't think like free men but are stuck in a master/slave mentality. The powers-that-be in Pakistan must be very arbitrary and corrupt for people to think this way. Rule of law, as I see it, started decaying in the very first years after Jinnah passed away.
> 
> To the Pakistanis here, I'll say this: principles are what you fight for. A forum discussion is a kind of verbal battle. The principles Pakistanis demonstrate they are upholding are not kind or pleasant or just ones. When Benjamin Franklin emerged from the Philadelphia Convention and was asked what kind of government the new United States of America would have he answered, "A Republic, _if you can keep it."_ Doing so demands a lot more from a citizen then merely marching with a mob to uphold the latest Five-Minute Hate; it requires the willingness to argue, justify, and strive for democratic leadership by contesting the will of your peers. Messy, but if you can't do that either out of fear or modesty or temper, then either you don't have what it takes to be a good citizen or your institutions are structured incorrectly and need revision. How many of you have held up the principles of international law which _demand_ Davis' release?




So the court has different police report, perhaps it is possible when the CIA is behind the police reports. Just becuase you can talk like a sly fox does not make you honest, you lie, as usual with all your corage and determination which happens to be the inborn trait of most americans. You live under the shades of "deniability' but that does not wash away your crimes. With your master like tone you talk about "master-slave mentality", keep up your dirty work, soon you might be given a pay cheque from the CIA.


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## ajtr

Glorious Resolve said:


> The old tug of war is on between PPP and PML-N--
> 
> PPP is in very awkward position now-- and PML is taking full advantage of it-


That i was thinking too.raymond davis case has more to do with pakistani local politics than the relation between usa and pak.Anyway nawaz sharief is never liked by usa and now Nawaz group has got the davis case to pay usa back in same coin.

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## RescueRanger

AstanoshKhan said:


> Look what is she saying "even the technical and administrative staff has the immunity."


 
President Asif Ali Zardari&#8217;s spokesman Farhatullah Babar dismissed Ms Wahab&#8217;s statement, saying that it was her personal view.

&#8220;This is neither the policy of the party nor the government,&#8221; Mr Babar said.

He said the government and the PPP had &#8220;made it very clear that Raymond Davis&#8217; case is before court and the court will decide the issue&#8221;.

Dawn.com

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What a sold out w-----re 3 pakistani died and she is preaching us let the arse free


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## jahangeer yousaf

that's not the first time ..... it started way back in nawaz period when he sold out KANSI .........
and about rahat indian has right to detain him ...........that was case of Anti Money Loundering.


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## Pak_Sher

RescueRanger said:


> President Asif Ali Zardari&#8217;s spokesman Farhatullah Babar dismissed Ms Wahab&#8217;s statement, saying that it was her personal view.
> 
> &#8220;This is neither the policy of the party nor the government,&#8221; Mr Babar said.
> 
> He said the government and the PPP had &#8220;made it very clear that Raymond Davis&#8217; case is before court and the court will decide the issue&#8221;.
> 
> Dawn.com


 
May be Fauzia did not have breakfast or was drunk or hung over from the night before. Does anyone know when was the last time Fauzia visited a psychitrist? Please share.


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## jahangeer yousaf

Pak_Sher said:


> May be Fauzia did not have breakfast or was drunk or hung over from the night before. Does anyone know when was the last time Fauzia visited a psychitrist? Please share.


lolz no one remembers its been a long time ....... i think she will visit when she joins opposition.


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## Abu Basit

Rabzon said:


> Dawn
> Kamran Shafi
> Feb 15 2011


 
why am i not surprised at this article from Bay'ghairat Brigade.

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## MastanKhan

Mutee said:


> Why is this mr mastan is insulting us all I think he isn't very proud to be a Pakistani or maybe he's just arrogant but a very misinformed arrogant I must say


 
Sir,

I am a very humble pakistani---in your lack of understanding the use of the term---proud---it is not used just because of being---. You can be proud of the accomplishment and achievements of different people in different fields---but it is the dumbest creation of pakistanis to "proud to be a pakistani"---that shows some issues related to self esteem either good or bad---you get my drift----. I guess they are being proud that their parents created them----then you can be proud of your parents---.

Pakistan doesnot need you to be proud of its nationality----pakistan needs you to do things that it can be proud of your achievements---pakistan needs you to get to that level that it say---yes I am proud of my citizen---.

Nations are proud of its people who do extraordinary things---nations are proud of people who achieve the highest goals in life---people don't get proud of their nations just because they are born in it---that is the dumbest of all the things that the pakistani youth have created over the years---.

Why have they created it---because of their incompetence---. Why----for a nation to be proud of you----a pakistani has to work very hard---real honestly---and reach that certain pleateau with courage honour and dignity---well most these items are foreign to quite a few of my countryment----so they chose otherwise---they came up with the idea---what if I can be proud of my country---and I don't have to do all that.

So---that is the background of " proud to be a pakistani "---if you like to---we can discuss it further---.

And also---THIS TERM IS ALSO VERY UN-ISLAMIC-----a muslim is never a proud whomsoever---you can be proud of someone else----but not of yourself---.

Now as for Shah Mahmood Qureshi----I just talked to someone senior in the pak circle of influence---Mr Qureshi took a gamble---he wants to be the interimprime minister of pakistan---seemingly---there are issues with the current govt that it may not last for long----so he was trying to solidify his position for that post.

I guess he forgot that the position of interim prime minister goes through the office of the sec of state Mrs Clinton----


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## MastanKhan

ajtr said:


> That i was thinking too.raymond davis case has more to do with pakistani local politics than the relation between usa and pak.Anyway nawaz sharief is never liked by usa and now Nawaz group has got the davis case to pay usa back in same coin.


 
Sir,

This is more of a game being played between PML N and PPP---pmln wants to cash onto the oppurtunity and wants to try to make the ppp look bad---. The problem is the the issue is bigger than what the pmln can chew and swallow---they have taken a bigger bite than they can handle and they are going to choke on it----actually they are choking on it----and the bottomline is----it will strangulate pakistan---.

Ordinary pakistanis will suffer---it is the fight of two bull elephants---the ppp and the pmln---the catalyst is Davis---and it is the people who will suffer when their lives are trampled upon---and at stake is the well being of pakistan and pakistanis. It is a matter of shame that the pmln has chosen to put the nation as the shield to take the brunt of the attack.

The lies that punjab govt has put forward and the police oficer Mr Tareen has come with----has nothing to do with the welbeing of the country but for their own personal gains---.

I have recieved information that those two were criminals and this info comes from reliable sources---it was the duty of the police to be truthfull in this case. Tareen's staement reeks of deceit when he stated "yes there were bullets in the magazine, but no round in the chamber"---why would he say such a deceptive thing to mislead the nation---. His statement meant that as there was no bullet in the chamber---there was no threat.

I also saw the video that was on BBC news----the shots were fired from within the car----the front windshield had holes in it and the rear one was blown out---those two were not just stopped at the light with pistols showing from the hip---but rather pointed at the car---.

Nawaz and party is playing with fire---this fire will burn a lot of people. And some of you pleasure seeker will enjoy the death and misery of others---just so that you can be proud of your stubbornness.


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## iPhone

Abu Basit said:


> why am i not surprised at this article from Bay'ghairat Brigade.


 
ha! I like that. Bai'ghairat brigade.


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## Bang Galore

*Raymond Davis 'has diplomatic immunity' in Pakistan*

*The US government has announced that it will certify before a Pakistani court later this week that a US citizen in custody over the deaths of two men in Lahore has diplomatic immunity.*

Raymond Davis was remanded for 14 days on Friday over last month's killings.

Mr Davis, 36, has admitted he shot the men, but says he acted in self-defence as they were trying to rob him.

The case is threatening to derail US ties with Pakistan, a crucial ally in the fight against militants.

Mr Davis is charged on two counts - murder and possession of illegal weapons.

The court has ordered the Pakistani government to clarify US embassy claims that he has immunity.

*On Monday US state department spokesman PJ Crowley told reporters: "On Thursday, we will present a petition to the court to certify that he has diplomatic immunity and that he should be released."*

He said Pakistan had an "international obligation" to release Mr Davis because he "has diplomatic immunity".

"We respect our international obligations, and we expect other countries, including Pakistan, to do the same," he added.

Correspondents say the Pakistani government is under domestic pressure to try Mr Davis at home.

Mr Davis has reportedly been sent to the high-security Kot Lakhpat jail in Lahore. His next hearing is scheduled for 25 February.

He is said to have told police that he acted in self-defence during the incident on 27 January because the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger tried to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint.

As his colleagues came to his aid, their vehicle ran over and killed a third person.

It is not clear what Mr Davis's role in Lahore was - American officials in the capital Islamabad have said only that he was an US embassy employee who was part of the "administrative and technical staff".

The Associated Press news agency says Pentagon records show that Mr Davis is a former Special Forces soldier who left the army in 2003 after 10 years of service.

BBC News - Raymond Davis &#039;has diplomatic immunity&#039; in Pakistan


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## jahangeer yousaf

according to my resources pakistan gonna free him up within few days ......... what a sad end it will be .....

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## Veeru

*All foreign mission staff in Pakistan have diplomatic immunity: Fauzia Wahab*

*All diplomats, technical and administrative staff of foreign missions in Pakistan have immunity under the Vienna Convention and the US official arrested for shooting and killing two men in Lahore is no exception, a spokesperson for the ruling Pakistan People's Party said today.*

PPP leader Fauzia Wahab made the remarks while interacting with the media at the Karachi Press Club.

However, she said she was making the remarks in a personal capacity.

Pakistan is a signatory to the Vienna Convention and has its own law of 1972 on the privileges of diplomats and according to these regulations, all diplomats have "immunity from detention and from arrest," she said.

"The technical and administrative staff (of foreign missions) also have immunity," she added.

Wahab said Raymond Davis - the US official arrested in Lahore last month after he gunned down two men he claimed were trying to rob him - had an "official business visa".

Arguing over his status could put Pakistan's "overall good reputation with the rest of the world" at risk, she contended. Pakistan has to handle Davis' case with care as the US is the largest provider of aid to the country, she said.

The US is the biggest market for Pakistani products that generates revenues of $4 billion and a large number of Pakistanis live there, she said.

Asked about former foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi's reported claim that he refused to grant a diplomatic visa to Davis, Wahab said Qureshi had violated the PPP's discipline by making such claims.

Washington's relations with Islamabad have hit a new low after Pakistani leaders rejected several US demands for Davis to be freed on the ground that he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Reports have suggested that the PPP decided not to reallocate the foreign affairs portfolio to Qureshi during a recent shake-up of the cabinet as he was opposed to granting immunity to Davis.

Pakistani police have rejected Davis' claim of acting in self-defence and accused him of murder in an interim charge-sheet.

The government too is under pressure to put Davis on trial due to rising anti-American sentiments in the country.

The US has put off high-level talks with Afghanistan and Pakistan following the failure of attempts to free Davis.

*American lawmakers have threatened to cut civil and military aid to Pakistan. *

All foreign mission staff in Pakistan have diplomatic immunity: Fauzia Wahab - World - DNA


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## Veeru

*Pakistan Islamists warn of protests if U.S. prisoner freed*

By Zeeshan Haider

ISLAMABAD | Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:42am EST

*ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - An influential Pakistani Islamist party accused the United States on Tuesday of riding roughshod in the case of a U.S. consular employee held over the killing of two Pakistanis and said it would hold protests if he is freed.*

Raymond Davis was arrested after shooting two Pakistanis in what he called self defense during an armed robbery attempt and what Lahore's police chief called "clear-cut murder".

The United States is piling pressure on Pakistan to release Davis, saying his arrest was a violation of international conventions because he has diplomatic immunity.

Pakistan says the matter will be decided by its courts.

The issue has become a lightning rod for anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, which the United States counts as an important, if unreliable, ally in its war against militants that launch attacks against its soldiers in Afghanistan.

Jamaat-e-Islami, a religious and political party capable of organizing large protests, accused the United States of exerting "unprincipled and unlawful" pressure on Pakistan.

"Why is America hell bent on trampling on Pakistani law and its judicial system? We will forcefully protest if he is released without a court order," Jamaat-e-Islami deputy chief Liaquat Baluch told Reuters.

Jamaat-e-Islami and other religious parties don't win many votes in elections. But the government can't afford to ignore them.

Some members of the Pakistani media, which has in the past accused U.S. aid workers of being spies, have also called for Davis to be put on trial in Pakistan.

Supporters of the men Davis shot dead in the city of Lahore on January 27 have already held protests and burned U.S. flags.

Davis has been detained on remand since the incident.

On Thursday, the United States is expected to present a petition to a Lahore court to certify that Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released.

Cash-strapped Pakistan is one of the largest non-NATO recipients of American military aid. But it is constantly battling the public perception that it is a U.S. puppet so has to tread cautiously.

In addition to the two men shot and killed by Davis, a third man was killed when a vehicle from the U.S. consulate, apparently en route to rescue Davis, struck and killed a passer-by. (Writing by Michael Georgy; Editing by Nick Macfie)

Pakistan Islamists warn of protests if U.S. prisoner freed | Reuters


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## Developereo

Mutee said:


> Sir ur right that we need to work on economy but tell me jub tam hum log America ki turf dekhtay rehayn gay or ghulam rehangay Kia economy better hogi?


 
Somewhat off-topic but Pakistan will never become self-sufficient as long as the feudal/industrial/military elite keep the current corrupt system in place. And there is no sign this will change any time soon.

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## Safriz

This will be my last comment in this thread..A bit off topic but all those calls to just Kill Raymond Davis without an impartial and fair trial....reminds me of certain incident i read in a Religious Book...It goes like this...
When Changez khan sent his envoy to the ruling Muslim caliph of that time,for some reason he killed the envoy.According to that era's agreed laws between states,nobody was allowed to kill another kingdom's envoy..the news reached Changez khan and although he did not believe in Allah,he knew that the God of Muslims is called "Allah"..He went to a mound and prayed in a complaining way "O lord of Muslims,your people have been unjust with me and my people,do help me"..Then he went on to launch an offensive on Islamic caliphate..Tatarii armies assembled outside the Muslim capital's walls.Among other soldiers and volunteers a pious man went out for "Jihaad" but immediately came back..People asked him why he wasn't taking part in Jihaad and he said that These Kaafirs have "Allh kii Madadd" with them and we cant fight them..i have seen Angels stood with them shouting "Yaa ayyohal kafarah qutilatil fajarah"..O infidels, kill the evildoers..

.......see you in some other thread..


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## Imran Khan

i will never surprise if fozia wahab face some qadri .


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## EastWest

If Raymond Davis really has a diplomatic Visa, there is nothing Pakistan can do.They will have to release him eventually unless USA revokes his diplomat status which i dont think USA will do.

But the question still remains, Why were two Pakistani intelligence operatives tailng Davis?


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## Raza88

http://old.thenews.com.pk/15-02-2011/stocks/image/Cartoon.jpg


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## ajtr

Imran Khan said:


> i will never surprise if fozia wahab face some qadri .


u mean to say she is also wajib-e-qatal???


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## jahangeer yousaf

ajtr said:


> u mean to say she is also wajib-e-qatal???


 
she is not wajib ul qatl ....... but she does not know what are the interest of country............and she should understand it before she is in a trance of wajib ul qatl


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## ajtr

*Punjab&#8217;s request for trying Davis declined​*

ISLAMABAD: The federal government has declined a Punjab government request seeking trial of &#8216;US diplomatic official&#8217; Raymond Davis, who is also facing double murder charges, The Express Tribune has learnt.
The Punjab government had asked for instituting a case of espionage against Davis. Police prosecutors had recommended trying Davis for spying on the basis of &#8220;strong evidence&#8221; against him. However, the federal government&#8217;s consent was necessary because Davis claims to be a member of the US diplomatic mission, sources said.
In a letter to the federal government, the provincial authorities had recommended registration of an espionage case on the basis of a confessional statement of Davis that he had made during interrogation, the source added.
Police had recovered sensitive documents and photographs of Pakistan&#8217;s defence installations from Davis.
In another letter addressed to the ministry of foreign affairs, the Punjab government has sought the custody of four employees of the US consulate-general in Lahore.
They are accused of crushing to death a Pakistani citizen while they were driving in a marketplace of Lahore on Jan 27 when Davis shot dead two Pakistanis. The police had registered a criminal case against them.
According to Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah, the accused are hiding in the US consulate general in Lahore. The consulate officials have asked the Punjab government to approach the ministry of foreign affairs for the custody of the four men and their vehicle.
Another source told The Express Tribune that the police have recovered a file from Davis which contained highly sensitive information.


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## ajtr

jahangeer yousaf said:


> she is not wajib ul qatl ....... but she does not know what are the interest of country............and she should understand it before she is in a trance of wajib ul qatl


too bad if u people declare anyone wajib-ul-qatl just coz she is airing her own opinion.No freedom of thoughts?

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## A.Muqeet khan

EastWest said:


> If Raymond Davis really has a diplomatic Visa, there is nothing Pakistan can do.They will have to release him eventually unless USA revokes his diplomat status which i dont think USA will do.
> 
> But the question still remains, Why were two Pakistani intelligence operatives tailng Davis?


 
exuse me but are u a diplomat or do u know the genevas rules and regulations in depth ? cause if u do plz enlighten us if u dont plz dont disturb


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## Abu Basit

Dunya News: Home Page

A complete charge sheet of Raymond Davis was presented to the District and session Judge Lahore. The 25 page charge sheet states that Raymond Davis did not kill Faheem and Faizan in self defense.

The police presented a complete charge sheet of Raymond Davis, in the Court of Session Judge. The murder victim&#8217;s brother, Imran Haider is prosecuting the case. The complete charge sheet was published on 25 pages in which it is written that Raymond Davis did not kill Faizan and Faheem in self Defense. The accused did not even cooperate at all during interrogation.

It has been proven in the charge sheet that Raymond Davis murdered two people. The murder victim Faizan did not have bullets in his gun. On the other hand, the statements by former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi and PPP information minister Fauzia Wahab regarding Raymond Davis have been challenged in the Lahore High Court.

The petitioner, Advocate Azhar Siddique filed an application requesting the court to involve the former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi and PPP information minister Fauzia Wahab, in the investigation and record their statements.


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## ashok321

Imran Khan said:


> i will never surprise if fozia wahab face some qadri .


 
So you think she has a lone voice? Military is unaware and never gave thier nod n wink?


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## TalhaBinTariq

AAAAARRGGHHH!!!! I am absolutely disgusted by this "Democratic" (CORRUPT) Government!!!! 

Hey brothers & sisters,
if that Yankee Terrorist is flown out of the sacred motherland, lets all settle it on the streets, for once and for all! Egyptian Style! 


(When will Army step in? I've had enough of this "Democracy/Theftcracy" or whatever-the-hell-you-call-it I can't take it any more!!!


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## Skywalker

This shows the true face of zardari the american stooge, who is more concerned about himself and family than the pakistani people. All his money and property is outside Pakistan and he knows any decision taken aagainst davis will result in freezing his assets. He has already seen what the west has done to Hosni Mubarak the once favourit stooge of the west.

This Fauzia is a moron who is only doing what shes been told to do. What a shame this PPP govt. have brought to us, infact as a nation we are not lfar behind in being a *baighairath*, enjoy.


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## Imran Khan

jahangeer yousaf said:


> she is not wajib ul qatl ....... but she does not know what are the interest of country............and she should understand it before she is in a trance of wajib ul qatl


 
no but PPP begharats should think once before open there dirty mouth . they hurt public feelings and then some crazy like qadri will come out. beeter to save then sorry.

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## Spring Onion

Fauzia wahab is misquoting the Vienna Convention trying to fool the public or want to become a foreign minister


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## JonAsad

ajtr said:


> too bad if u people declare anyone wajib-ul-qatl just coz she is airing her own opinion.No freedom of thoughts?


 
i dont get it-- who declared her wajib ul qatal??

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## Paan Singh

so indian ambassador also enjoys immunity


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## JonAsad

> * Obama proposes $3.1b for Pakistan spending in 2012 budget*
> 
> Updated at: 1301 PST, Tuesday, February 15, 2011
> WASHINGTON: The Obama administration has proposed to Congress a total of $ 3.1 billion in the 2012 budget for U.S economic and security assistance and diplomatic operations in Pakistan, according to a senior American official.
> 
> The administration's spendings for Pakistan are broken up into two parts, the "enduring core part" - meaning long-term assistance programs and the Overseas Contingency Operations (OCO), an administration official said at a briefing on President Barack Obama's budget proposals for the fiscal year 2012, beginning October 1, 2011.
> 
> As part of the long-term economic and security assistance, President Obama is seeking $ 1.9 billion in the year 2012. The amount will also cover the cost of American aid operations and diplomatic presence.
> 
> Of the $ 1.9 billion, about $ 1.5 billion is annual money to be allocated under the Kerry-Lugar-Berman five-year aid measure.
> 
> It also includes $ 350 million in foreign military financing programs, which is part of the five-year agreement between the two countries.Some USAID operating expenses are also included in that number.
> 
> Under the Kerry-Lugar-Berman initiative, the US spends money on a variety of programs including development of democracy and wide-ranging infrastructure projects to assist Pakistan's economic progress.
> 
> On the extraordinary (OCO) side of the budget, the administration has proposed $1.2 billion, which includes some money for the American operational expenditures, about $146 million.
> 
> Under the OCO, $ 1.1 billion is to be devoted to the Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund, which is a program that the two countries have worked jointly with the departments of Defense and the State.
> 
> The PCCF seeks to train Pakistani forces for a more effective fight against insurgents along country's western border with Afghanistan.
> 
> "So the unique part of the budget, the extraordinary part of the budget is the PCCF.
> 
> The enduring part of the budget is more of our economic and military assistance thats going to be sustainable over the long term," the administration official said. (APP)



Soon this aid will become conditional- any guess on which condition? Any one?--

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## ajtr

Imran Khan said:


> no but PPP begharats should think once before open there dirty mouth . they hurt public feelings and then some crazy like qadri will come out. beeter to save then sorry.


So u mean to say no one should air their views coz society is infested with crazy Qadris.


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## Spring Onion

Prism said:


> so indian ambassador also enjoys immunity


 
why you have doubts that he is not an ambassador?


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## Aslan

EastWest said:


> If Raymond Davis really has a diplomatic Visa, there is nothing Pakistan can do.They will have to release him eventually unless USA revokes his diplomat status which i dont think USA will do.
> 
> But the question still remains, Why were two Pakistani intelligence operatives tailng Davis?


 
A question that is stuck in the mind of a few trolls. Thats all, first of this news of them being intel officers is nothing more then a news floating around with no proof. And secondly it has been also proven that RD had no diplomatic visa. Now what ever Fozia is saying is coming out with a theory after they fired MQ for him refusing to play along Zardari and his chamchas.

PS before deciding to bless us with some of the bs please you should and the likes of you should go through the RD thread where not only all the info has been posted and discussed in detail, but also have been trolled upon by the likes of you aka your countrymen.


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## Imran Khan

ajtr said:


> So u mean to say no one should air their views coz society is infested with crazy Qadris.


 
i dont say that mam. tell me what you do when you are in jungle and millions of bloody animals around you? same apply here one should think before pass comments in pakistan.


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## Aslan

Jana said:


> Fauzia wahab is misquoting the Vienna Convention trying to fool the public or want to become a foreign minister


 
Sister why are u even taking this retard infact all of these retards sitting in Islamabad seriously. Did you know that according to the law of universe all of them have immunity from commonsense, ghairat, patriotism, and many more such things.


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## ajtr

Imran Khan said:


> i dont say that mam. tell me what you do when you are in jungle and millions of bloody animals around you? same apply here one should think before pass comments in pakistan.


Jungle analogy doesn't fit well with a country.Sure danger are there but then for fear of it will stop ur work?it doesnt bode well. lot of accidents takes places on roads coz of fear of accident u dont stop driving on road.


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## The HBS Guy

Preparing ground for Mr. Davis' release.


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## JonAsad

ajtr said:


> Jungle analogy doesn't fit well with a country.Sure danger are there but then for fear of it will stop ur work?it doesnt bode well. lot of accidents takes places on roads coz of fear of accident u dont stop driving on road.


 
You have to be careful while driving or crossing the roads- thats all- She should be careful-


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## Spring Onion

Aslan said:


> Sister why are u even taking this retard infact all of these retards sitting in Islamabad seriously. Did you know that according to the law of universe all of them have immunity from commonsense, ghairat, patriotism, and many more such things.


 
because its always required to set the record straight and point out the lies they are feeding 

i am dead sure she doent know a about Vienna convention

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## Paan Singh

davis will be released no doubt,but it will ruin the govt.
he will make sure that it is zardari's last tenure


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## Pak_Sher

Fauzia can take her cheap shots, but she is no where qualified to be a foreign minister. Does she even have a geninue bachelor's degree? When was the last time a doctor checked her mental fitness? Please share?


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## Pak_Sher

Prism said:


> davis will be released no doubt,but it will ruin the govt.
> he will make sure that it is zardari's last tenure


 
"Ruin the govt", love it dude. Aap k mopo may ghee chakar and all the other chlosterol increasing stuff.


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## AstanoshKhan

They will bring a rise up one way or the other in Pakistan too as they are doing in other parts of the world for their final hit.

As Jinnah once said: ''Musalman museebat may gabraya nahee karta.'' Just stick tight to the rope of Allah swt and HE for sure is the best of planners. Never give up hope, Allah swt is always there for help, just give a sincere call, not 911 or Rescue 115.


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## pak-marine

Taliban warns Pakistan against releasing Raymond Davis
By Reuters
Published: February 15, 2011

A file picture dated 4 October 2009 shows chief of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan Hakimullah Mehsud (C) sitting with Taliban Spokesman Azam Tariq (R). PHOTO: EPA
ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani Taliban warned the government on Tuesday it would punish any move to release a US consulate employee accused of murdering two Pakistanis in a case that has inflamed already strained ties with Washington.
&#8220;If (Pakistani) rulers hand him over to America then we will target these rulers. If Pakistani courts cannot punish Davis then they should hand him over to us,&#8221; said Azam Tariq, spokesman for the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (Taliban movement of Pakistan).
&#8220;We will give exemplary punishment to the killer Davis.&#8221;
The warning from the al-Qaeda linked Taliban, which has kept up suicide bombings to destabilise Pakistan&#8217;s government despite several army offensives, underscores the charged atmosphere surrounding Davis&#8217; case.
US Senator John Kerry was due in Pakistan as part of the Obama administration&#8217;s efforts to resolve the crisis.
Raymond Davis, the US consular employee jailed in Lahore for shooting two Pakistanis last month, says he acted in self-defence during an armed robbery.
Washington insists Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released but the Pakistani government, fearful of a backlash from Pakistanis already wary of the United States and enraged by the shooting, says the matter should be decided in court.
On Thursday, the United States is expected to present a petition to a Lahore court to certify that Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released.
Religious parties don&#8217;t win many votes in elections. But the government can&#8217;t afford to ignore the groups who often seize on issues concerning the United States to promote their cause.
&#8220;Of course he (Davis) should not be released. He has committed a crime and he should be punished. He doesn&#8217;t have immunity,&#8221; said Yahya Mujhaid, a spokesman for Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which was blacklisted by the UN over its links to the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) militant group blamed for the 2008 attack on Mumbai. It denies it has links to the LeT.
&#8220;If he is released, we will register our protest but in a peaceful way. We will hold rallies &#8230; Not only us, the whole of Pakistan will protest against any such move.&#8221;
Supporters of the slain men have held protests and burned US flags. In addition to the two men Davis shot, a third man was killed when a U.S. consulate vehicle, apparently trying to rescue Davis, struck and killed a passer-by.


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## Aslan

PTI flays Fauzia Wahab



> PTI Information Secretary Omar Sarfraz Cheema has strongly condemned Fauzia Wahab&#8217;s statement that Raymond Davis enjoys diplomatic immunity.
> 
> He said the Pakistan Peoples party leader&#8217;s statement was aimed at preparing ground for the handing over of Raymond Davis to Washington just to save the looted money and assets of her leaders lying overseas.
> 
> She has blatantly tried to misguide the nation while it has already been reported that Raymond has been given an official visa not the diplomatic one and he does not enjoy the diplomatic immunity, the Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf leaders said.
> 
> He said Shah Mehmood Qureshi was punished because of his stand that diplomatic immunity could not be extended to Raymond Davis.
> 
> He said Qureshi had kept the national interest foremost and taken a principled stand which was need of the hour but the government&#8217;s hostile attitude towards Shah Mahmood Qureshi after his removal from foreign ministry give credence to the fact that it wanted to hand over Raymond Davis to the US at any cost.


PTI flays Fauzia Wahab

Lo paygaya syapa.


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## Aslan

Well ofcourse the talibs would want to cash in, behti ganga main haath kisko nahi dhoonay. Aur kuch nahi to free ki publicity, and 4-5 dinkies will also join the click.

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## Aslan

By the way mods as we have a new clown aka Fauzia niswar making statements every day to please her masters and people here are opening threads after threads to publish them, still they are all related to the same thread that we are in. Can you merge them here. Thanks.


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## Aslan

Petition asks LHC to summon Qureshi, Fauzia over Davis

LAHORE: Another petition was filed against arrested US national Raymond Davis in the Lahore High Court (LHC) on Tuesday, DawnNews reported.

The petitioner requested the court to summon former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi and Pakistan People&#8217;s Party&#8217;s Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab.

The petition, filed by a human rights organisation, says that statements by Qureshi and Wahab regarding Davis&#8217; immunity were contradictory and therefore the court should summon them and demand an explanation.

The petition also requested the court to obtain Davis&#8217; record from the foreign ministry.

Moreover, the petition requested the court to ensure that Davis is not handed over to US authorities.

Petition asks LHC to summon Qureshi, Fauzia over Davis | Latest-News | DAWN.COM

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## Patriot

It's the Job of FO to decide and i think FM Qureshi statement has far more credibility.I'd trust him over this chamchi any day in the week.It's clear that he does not have immunity as clarified by former FM.Now PPP will grant him immunity by hook and crook.


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## MZUBAIR

Would PPP deal for Raymond Davis ...... .

He is the murderer of 4 people.


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## Leviza

MZUBAIR said:


> Would PPP deal for Raymond Davis ...... .
> 
> He is the murderer of 4 people.


 
US should give other people who crushed one guy...
OR keep all of these gora people to US only.....

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## DV RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> This is more of a game being played between PML N and PPP---pmln wants to cash onto the oppurtunity and wants to try to make the ppp look bad---. The problem is the the issue is bigger than what the pmln can chew and swallow---they have taken a bigger bite than they can handle and they are going to choke on it----actually they are choking on it----and the bottomline is----it will strangulate pakistan---.
> 
> Ordinary pakistanis will suffer---it is the fight of two bull elephants---the ppp and the pmln---the catalyst is Davis---and it is the people who will suffer when their lives are trampled upon---and at stake is the well being of pakistan and pakistanis. It is a matter of shame that the pmln has chosen to put the nation as the shield to take the brunt of the attack.
> 
> The lies that punjab govt has put forward and the police oficer Mr Tareen has come with----has nothing to do with the welbeing of the country but for their own personal gains---.
> 
> I have recieved information that those two were criminals and this info comes from reliable sources---it was the duty of the police to be truthfull in this case. Tareen's staement reeks of deceit when he stated "yes there were bullets in the magazine, but no round in the chamber"---why would he say such a deceptive thing to mislead the nation---. His statement meant that as there was no bullet in the chamber---there was no threat.
> 
> I also saw the video that was on BBC news----the shots were fired from within the car----the front windshield had holes in it and the rear one was blown out---those two were not just stopped at the light with pistols showing from the hip---but rather pointed at the car---.
> 
> Nawaz and party is playing with fire---this fire will burn a lot of people. And some of you pleasure seeker will enjoy the death and misery of others---just so that you can be proud of your stubbornness.


 
Your views reflect minor situational part of scenario, you have to differentiate Political concerns & strategic/security concern of Davis case. self defense or not, already has cleared. Need to step ahead from this point.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Stick and carrot policy is working for US , so first they try to get their way from stick and if it doesn't work then the carrot.
US needs Pakistan as much Pakistan needs US. So first US will try to use stick trough their pet Pakistani President and if it won't work then carrot will be offered to Pakistan example: 3.2 billion aid for next year.
Soon US senators will bring carrots to Pakistan , the first ones used stick on Pakistani ambassador.

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## VCheng

Senator Kerry is visiting Pakistan to improve the situation soon, is he not?


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## ashok321

> US needs Pakistan as much Pakistan needs US



Najam sethi has said completely opposite of what you have just said, in Aapas ki baat on Duniya TV.

And that is: Pakistan needs US more than US does....


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## Cynic Waheed

RD is a diplomat and must be granted immunity, claims Obama in a press confrrence. Does that mean he is to go now?


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## MastanKhan

AstanoshKhan said:


> They will bring a rise up one way or the other in Pakistan too as they are doing in other parts of the world for their final hit.
> 
> As Jinnah once said: ''Musalman museebat may gabraya nahee karta.'' Just stick tight to the rope of Allah swt and HE for sure is the best of planners. Never give up hope, Allah swt is always there for help, just give a sincere call, not 911 or Rescue 115.


 
Sir,

If I dare say----dig in a little deeper and you will learn that Jinnah was talking about a different breed of people. He didnot make a blanket statement for the pakistanis---.


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## MM_Haider

Would somebody please elaborate 

*1. What worse could happen to Pakistan if Davis is not released?* For example;

- Sanctions
- Invasion by US troops
- No Aid, Loss of US Aid
etc


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## ahmadalikhan2010

This case will result in Revolution in Pakistan....................


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## MastanKhan

jahangeer yousaf said:


> according to my resources pakistan gonna free him up within few days ......... what a sad end it will be .....


 
Hi,

Mine says around a month and a half----.


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## American Eagle

Why do you seek to create false information and stir up hate mongering on this good PDF site, which is primarily here for worldwide military experiences, current and past tense, sharing for our military in common positive benefit?

Mr. Davis per statement 30 minutes ago broadcast worldwide on live TV stated as we already knew that Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity. And that the US expects Pakistan as a nation, not a series of individual fuedal politicos inside Pakistan, as a nation to do it's duty to honor the Geneva Convetnion and related International Treaties which give Davis Diplomatic Immunity, which says the Government of Pakistan has to free him so the US can return him in due course to the USA.

President Obama said the key and baseline principal is Diplomatic Immunity and it's absolute observance.

The Pakistani court focus is on the two robbers whose failed attempted stick up on Mr. Davis resulted in both being shot down in their act of attempted armed robbery. No other issues relate to Mr. Davis. The focus was, and is, and shall be until recognized is Diplomatic Immunity.

The loss of human life is always a tragedy, President Obama clearly stated, also...but the issue at hand is Diplomatic Immunity.


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## Leviza

ahmadalikhan2010 said:


> This case will result in Revolution in Pakistan....................


 
And that is what USA wants.....target is Pakistan Nukes.... you can get a idea what USA and west will start saying when there are lots of people on roads like Egypt and westerns will start saying Pak Nukes are not safe now and need to be removed ASAP....

Also they have enough ground force in Pakistan to tackle this, Pak army will get busy with people and gov and US will play dirty cards..........

once they have failed with the TTP to create problems in Pakistan....inshallah they will again fail in this front too....


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## deathfromabove

*Davis a Gun-For-Hire and Not Diplomat​*
_by H D S Greenway_

There were lots of things to be afraid of in Baghdad in the bad old days  kidnapping, beheading, truck bombs  but nothing scared me more than trigger-happy Americans who careened out of the Green Zone, ready to shoot anybody and anything they saw as a real or imagined threat. Many were not soldiers, but private security guards under government contract who could, and did, kill with impunity  seemingly a law unto themselves.
On a recent visit to Pakistan, I found a country rife with conspiracy theories in which Americans are most often the villains. Blackwater plays a major role in Pakistani fears, no matter how it endeavors to change its name.

Some of these conspiracy theories are fantasies, but in the curious case of Raymond Davis, all of Pakistans nightmares about Americans have coalesced. And this flame is fanned by the American refusals to reveal what Davis was supposed to be doing.

The facts are few and mysterious. Davis, 36, an employee at the American consulate in Lahore, was driving through town with a fully loaded Glock automatic pistol. Two men approached his car on a motor bike, Davis says, with intent to rob him. They were found later to have stolen cellphones.

Davis opened up on them with his Glock through the windshield and killed them both. Then he apparently stepped out of his car and photographed their dead bodies before he sped away. He was later arrested.

The case was further complicated when another car sped out of the consulate, apparently coming to Davis rescue, killed a Pakistani on a bicycle and sped back to the consulate. Neither the car nor the driver have been produced for the Pakistani authorities to question or inspect.

The Americans claim diplomatic immunity for Davis under Geneva Convention rules, and they are right by their lights. But Pakistani law says that Pakistan has a say in who has diplomatic immunity and who does not, and Pakistan deserves a full explanation.

There the matter stands, with the Pakistani courts threatening to try Davis for murder. The prosecution is saying that the shootings were not in self-defense. The Americans are hinting darkly that Pakistan will suffer dire consequences, canceled visits to Washington and a cut in financial aid.

In the meantime Pakistan is in a spasm of anti-American fury. The question of what an American diplomat was doing with a loaded gun, ready to use it, in the streets of a Pakistani city needs a lot more daylight than the Americans are providing.

And, yes, it turns out that Davis was not a member of the U.S. Foreign Service, but a gun-for-hire private operative attached to the technical and administrative staff of the consulate, according to the U.S. Embassy.

We all know that the business of private security has ballooned in recent years under very lucrative government contracts. The employees are often Americans, Britons and South Africans with military experience who can put their training to work for a great deal more money than usually awaits them in a fully civilian job. We also know that with U.S. forces stretched to the breaking point, these mercenaries, unhappily, play a major role in guarding American installations and embassies abroad that were once guarded only by U.S. Marines.

But in case after case, these private operatives have used lethal  and not always justified  force, and it is not clear whose laws they are under. Hamid Karzai tried to have them all fired from Afghanistan, but couldnt do it, so important were these private guns to the American war effort.

The case of Raymond Davis plunged into even deeper mystery when the Pakistanis say they found maps on him of high security installations. The Pakistanis are suggesting he may have known the men whom he killed. The Americans, in the meantime, refuse any further explanation of his activities. The Lahore High Court wont let the Pakistani government turn him over to the U.S. Embassy until they have ruled on his diplomatic status.

The Davis killings have resonance with a population already infuriated by the frequent drone attacks that often kill as many bystanders as militants. What is collateral damage to Americans is extra-judicial murder to many Pakistanis. The image of the careless American gunslinger is ingrained around the world through our greatest cultural export, the movies.

The best outcome would be for the Pakistanis to hand Davis over to the Americans under the terms of the Geneva Conventions, with the Americans giving a full explanation of what Davis was doing, and a worldwide crackdown on these private operatives who kill again and again with impunity or immunity.

And America should stop threatening Pakistan with loss of aid. The aid serves U.S. interests, not just Pakistans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/opinion/15iht-edgreenway15.html

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## American Eagle

Daily Times
February 15, 2011

By Raja Riaz

Following are excerptsMr. Riaz's news story.
LAHORE: The text of the incomplete challan submitted in the court is being produced here: 

&#8220;The case was handed over to Lytton Road Police Station In-charge Investigation Inspector Muneer Ahmad. During the investigation, the inspector took the dead bodies of the two (victims of Davis) &#8211; Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad &#8211; from the emergency ward of the Services Hospital and in the guard of policemen sent them to the mortuary. Lytton Road Police Station SHO, Atif Meraj Khan, took the belongings of the dead and other material in his custody and got them registered in fardats (the relevant papers) and handed over to the investigation officer. The detail of the things is as follows: one belt, one pistol pouch, one handbag, two wallets, five mobile phones (Nokia 18910, Samsung, A1303, Sony Ericsson T 700, Nokia 1616, 6300), Pakistani and foreign currency (Yen 58,915, Omani Baisa 1100, Piso 10), two national identity cards bearing Faizan Haider and Zohra Shahzad&#8217;s names and different pieces of papers. Later, the IO visited the crime spot and took in possession the following things: the deceased persons&#8217; Honda motorcycle bearing number LOV 4030, the blood of the two deceased on cotton buds, two pistols of 30 bore belonging to the deceased, pieces of shattered windowpanes of the accused&#8217;s vehicle, two empties, a 9mm pistol. They were sealed and registered in relevant documents. The IO drew a rough sketch of the crime scene and recorded the statements of eyewitnesses. All things were recorded while the two traffic wardens signed the papers as witnesses. The IO collected all these things from the custody of the Old Anarkali circle DSP and now this all material is being sent to the federal government through the Ministry of Interior for action and research. The DSP handed over a hand-written statement of the accused, written in the presence of the DSP, to the investigation officer. This statement reads that when the accused &#8220;halted his car at the traffic signal of Qartaba Chowk, one of the two motorcyclists pulled his pistol at him. He took out his pistol and fired at them in self-defence. The driver of the motorcycle ran away and the second fell on the motorcycle. 

Faizan Haider received five arm injuries. Two injuries were on the backside left buttock near the spinal cord and three in the front - right side of the chest, two on the left thigh.

The deceased Faheem also got five arm injuries &#8211; two injuries on the back side in lumber area. One bullet entered the left elbow and crossed in front, second entered in the head from the upper side of the ear and third entered from the left side of the belly and came out from the right and another bullet hit the left thigh. The parcels of the material related to the case have been submitted to a chemical examiner and the Forensic Science Laboratory.

The car used by the accused is the property of one Sohail Nisar, a resident of Gulberg, who has given it to a company &#8216;Capital Car Rental&#8217; and the company has given it on rent to American consulate on annual basis. The car has also been sent for forensic examination. On 11 February, on the conclusion of physical remand, the accused is being sent to jail on judicial remand. 
AMERICAN EAGLE COMMENT: As Mr. Davis was driving a car leased to the US Diplomatic Delegation by the above named Sohail Nisar you can understand that American's renting a year at a time a car on annual lease would have to have a GPS included in the rental car for neophyte American drivers to be able to get around in the large and busy City of Lahore.

You should ask "What does or do these selected remarks from a mere newspaper story tell us?"

ANSWER: The story verifies that Mr. Davis faced armed robbers who sought to harm his person and take his money and that he thus fired in self defense. Both robbers received wounds from the front sides of their persons, see highlighted in rec verification on both robbers being hit from the front above. 

What does this boil down to? ANSWER: Proven, known to the Lahore Police that the two robbers had a multi-crime criminal history. The police should have quickly gone to the residence or residences of the two failed robbers and sought out further stolen goods there.

The FACT remains that the Police did recovery various assorted stolen goods from the two robbers at the scene of their failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis.

THe loss of life is regrettable but is a clear cut result of living a life of crime.


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## ajtr




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## RescueRanger

For God's sake... Let him go!!! Why ruin all this trust, all this good...

I want stronger relations between Pakistan and the USA. I wan't this to grow and flourish and i want us to sit back a bit, tone down the passion and hear both sides. 

Things were handled badly on both sides... Lets move on beyond this.

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## ajtr

*US and Pakistan square off ​*
By M K Bhadrakumar 

The United States State Department has announced that the trilateral United States-Pakistan-Afghanistan meeting at foreign minister level, scheduled to take place in Washington on February 23-24, has been indefinitely postponed. Washington ascribes the postponement due to a cabinet reshuffle in Islamabad on Friday in which foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi was replaced. 

Islamabad has also signaled that the proposed visit by Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari is in doubt - "There is no clear date for the president's visit". 

Meanwhile, there have been threatening noises from Washington that US aid to Pakistan might be in jeopardy and, if ABC News is to be believed, a top White House official warned the Pakistani ambassador that diplomatic ties might be curtailed. 

All this is happening on account of the continued detention of a single American national commonly known as "Raymond Davis" in the Pakistani city of Lahore, despite the urgings by senior US officials at the political and diplomatic level that he should be forthwith released. 

Davis is employed by the US government and is accused of shooting dead two armed men in Lahore. The US Embassy in Islamabad said the man, who it claims fired in self-defense, is covered by diplomatic immunity and should be immediately released. 

*Davis' detention ought to have been a perfect case for some quiet, patient diplomacy. The incident has impacted on Pakistan's fragile political situation. The widespread "anti-Americanism" that lurks just below the surface in Pakistani society; popular indignation bordering on anger that the government is colluding with the US's war in Afghanistan; tensions between the federal government in Islamabad and the opposition-run provincial government in Lahore (which arrested Davis); the tenuous equations between the civilian government and the military; and the sheer ambiguity surrounding the incident (who is "Davis" actually, what was his mission on that fateful evening in Lahore, and so on) - all these complicate the Davis case. *

*Despite all this, Washington has deliberately opted for a course of muscular diplomacy, of openly pressuring the Pakistani authorities in full public view. The abrasive diplomacy appears unwarranted, and it is common sense that given the sensitivities involved it would incur the risk of being counter-productive. *

Even vis-a-vis Iran and North Korea, Washington prefers to painstakingly use back channels when diplomatic feathers get ruffled. *Pakistan is also a traditional ally of the US, and Washington has no lack of communication lines to get through to the powers that be in Islamabad and the garrison city of Rawalpindi. Discretion demanded that Washington allow a "cooling-off" period and in the meanwhile work through confidential channels of communication to arrive at a satisfactory solution. *

Astoundingly, what we are witnessing is exactly to the contrary. An "area specialist" in the US with links to the establishment wrote:
*Better relations will require Washington and Pakistan to confront the edifice of ossified fictions that surround and ultimately undermine this complex and strained relationship. Washington needs to aggressively combat the historical untruths that have become legendary fact as vigorously as it needs to understand the Pakistan that is, not the Pakistan it might want to be ... If the United States and Washington can ever re-optimize their bilateral relationship, both will have to make a concerted effort to resist rehearsing past fictions and creating new ones.*
Tirades like this and the steady stream of American official threats in the past fortnight directed at Pakistan over the Davis case aren't having the desired effect. 

Islamabad is not impressed by the US's posturing. Even after Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke to Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kiani on the sidelines of the 47th Munich security conference 10 days ago, Pakistan crossed the Rubicon with the decisive step to formally charge Davis in a court of law in Lahore with pre-meditated murder and on that basis got him remanded to prison for another 14 days for interrogation. 

Again, the ousted Qureshi has plunged into the controversy without any foreplay, alleging that Clinton pressured him to "publicly confirm diplomatic immunity of Davis. However, I refused to do so because it was against the factual position in the case." 

He said, "The kind of blanket immunity Washington is pressing for Davis is not endorsed by the official record of the Foreign Ministry," adding that Washington even "threatened that Hillary Clinton would not meet me at the Munich conference on February 6 if the request was not granted." Qureshi possibly has a motivation to link his removal as foreign minister with his firm stance on the Davis case, but the damage has been done. 

Why are the stakes so heavily loaded? What raises eyebrows among observers in Delhi is that *Davis, who as a highly trained operative killed two motorcyclists who were tailing his car in obtrusive intelligence work for over an hour, knowing full well who they were. As a former US special forces officer, Davis was knowledgeable enough to estimate that such obtrusive intelligence was not meant to be life-threatening but was intended to be intimidating and obstructive. In short, Davis lost his cool at some point when he found he couldn't shake off his "tail". *

The Pakistani authorities have been leaking to the media that they knew Davis was in touch with the "Pakistani Taliban". The Washington Post quoted Pakistani intelligence officials to the effect that the two motor cyclists were warning Davis that he was crossing some "red line" (meaning, he was about to do something unacceptable to Pakistan's national security interests) and it was at that point he shot them. 

Clearly, the *US has every reason to believe that the Pakistani side knows much more than it is prepared to admit, and if Davis breaks down after sustained interrogation in police custody, he might spill explosive stuff. This explains the highly contradictory versions that the US has given about Davis' identity and the nature of his assignment in Pakistan. *

*What emerges from the pattern of the US reaction is that Davis' detention has sent alarm bells ringing all the way to the White House. The US is apprehensive that the Davis case has the potential to shake up the very foundations of its alliance with Pakistan. *Therefore, it has done the most natural thing that most countries facing a grave predicament vis-a-vis a foreign country would do - take the high moral ground straightaway and place itself in denial mode, come what may. 

So, what did Davis do for a living? From the adamant fashion in which Islamabad (despite being highly vulnerable to US aid cutoff) is reacting, it seems it has no real choices in the matter. This seems to be a situation in which, as someone once said, you only live once. 

The heart of the matter is that Pakistan has been wondering for a long time who it is who could be instigating the so-called "Pakistani Taliban" to inflict such bloody wounds on the Pakistani military and weaken and incrementally destabilize the Pakistani state. 

It has been convenient to point the finger from time to time at the Indians, but when Pakistani state institutions were attacked, especially the military and the Inter-Services Intelligence, as precise targets, Islamabad would have had deeper suspicions, especially asa the close links between the former Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh and the US security establishment was a fact known to Pakistani agencies. 

Conventional wisdom, especially among Indian propagandists, has been that what is happening inside Pakistan is a kind of "blowback" of terrorism. Some Indian pundits even claimed that the "serpent" that the Pakistani state nurtured over the years (namely, extremist outfits) for poisoning India's environs has now turned against the Pakistani state itself. 

While this thesis has its seductive power, it is based on simplistic assumptions regarding the processes going on within Pakistan, especially the dialectics involving the vehicles of militancy and extremism and the state security apparatus. The Pakistani military and its highly efficient intelligence set-up could have concluded a long time ago that under the cover of the "Pakistani Taliban", all sorts of free-wheeling forces were at work. Washington is openly doing hero-worshipping of Amrullah Saleh even months after Afghan President Hamid Karzai sacked the spymaster almost as a prerequisite for improving Afghan-Pakistan relations. 

Davis can most certainly provide the proverbial "missing link" to Pakistan to connect several dots on an intriguing chessboard. Conceivably, he will be sent back home at some point, but by then he may be a "burnt-out case" and Pakistan would have gained a far better understanding of the US's regional policies. 

With over 100,000 American troops out on a limb in Afghanistan and the snow melting on the Hindu Kush mountains and a new "fighting season" just round the corner, the prospect surely unnerves Washington. The postponement of the trilateral meeting in Washington shows up the uncertainties. 

Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey.

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## Time Assassin

This Davis guy is defiently a CIA agent.

And if he is freed then i want their to be a revoulution in Pakistan and hang Zardari for his crime. Enough is ENOUGH, I DON'T WANT PEOPLE ALLL OVER THE WORLD TO THINK THAT PAKISTAN IS AMERICA'S BITCHES.


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## Cynic Waheed

RD will be persecuted in USA assures Sen Kerry in press conference. Really?!


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## F-16_Falcon

i am a supporter of PPP but if they free him without hanging than i want people to go street like egypt.


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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> RD will be persecuted in USA assures Sen Kerry in press conference. Really?!


 
Yes, REALLY. There are laws that are applicable here and they will be followed for sure.


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## Bratva

American Eagle said:


> Daily Times
> February 15, 2011
> 
> By Raja Riaz
> 
> Following are excerptsMr. Riaz's news story.
> LAHORE: The text of the incomplete challan submitted in the court is being produced here:
> 
> The case was handed over to Lytton Road Police Station In-charge Investigation Inspector Muneer Ahmad. During the investigation, the inspector took the dead bodies of the two (victims of Davis)  Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad  from the emergency ward of the Services Hospital and in the guard of policemen sent them to the mortuary. Lytton Road Police Station SHO, Atif Meraj Khan, took the belongings of the dead and other material in his custody and got them registered in fardats (the relevant papers) and handed over to the investigation officer. The detail of the things is as follows: one belt, one pistol pouch, one handbag, two wallets, five mobile phones (Nokia 18910, Samsung, A1303, Sony Ericsson T 700, Nokia 1616, 6300), Pakistani and foreign currency (Yen 58,915, Omani Baisa 1100, Piso 10), two national identity cards bearing Faizan Haider and Zohra Shahzads names and different pieces of papers. Later, the IO visited the crime spot and took in possession the following things: the deceased persons Honda motorcycle bearing number LOV 4030, the blood of the two deceased on cotton buds, two pistols of 30 bore belonging to the deceased, pieces of shattered windowpanes of the accuseds vehicle, two empties, a 9mm pistol. They were sealed and registered in relevant documents. The IO drew a rough sketch of the crime scene and recorded the statements of eyewitnesses. All things were recorded while the two traffic wardens signed the papers as witnesses. The IO collected all these things from the custody of the Old Anarkali circle DSP and now this all material is being sent to the federal government through the Ministry of Interior for action and research. The DSP handed over a hand-written statement of the accused, written in the presence of the DSP, to the investigation officer. This statement reads that when the accused halted his car at the traffic signal of Qartaba Chowk, one of the two motorcyclists pulled his pistol at him. He took out his pistol and fired at them in self-defence. The driver of the motorcycle ran away and the second fell on the motorcycle.
> 
> Faizan Haider received five arm injuries. Two injuries were on the backside left buttock near the spinal cord and three in the front - right side of the chest, two on the left thigh.
> 
> The deceased Faheem also got five arm injuries  two injuries on the back side in lumber area. One bullet entered the left elbow and crossed in front, second entered in the head from the upper side of the ear and third entered from the left side of the belly and came out from the right and another bullet hit the left thigh. The parcels of the material related to the case have been submitted to a chemical examiner and the Forensic Science Laboratory.
> 
> The car used by the accused is the property of one Sohail Nisar, a resident of Gulberg, who has given it to a company Capital Car Rental and the company has given it on rent to American consulate on annual basis. The car has also been sent for forensic examination. On 11 February, on the conclusion of physical remand, the accused is being sent to jail on judicial remand.
> AMERICAN EAGLE COMMENT: As Mr. Davis was driving a car leased to the US Diplomatic Delegation by the above named Sohail Nisar you can understand that American's renting a year at a time a car on annual lease would have to have a GPS included in the rental car for neophyte American drivers to be able to get around in the large and busy City of Lahore.
> 
> You should ask "What does or do these selected remarks from a mere newspaper story tell us?"
> 
> ANSWER: The story verifies that Mr. Davis faced armed robbers who sought to harm his person and take his money and that he thus fired in self defense. Both robbers received wounds from the front sides of their persons, see highlighted in rec verification on both robbers being hit from the front above.
> 
> What does this boil down to? ANSWER: Proven, known to the Lahore Police that the two robbers had a multi-crime criminal history. The police should have quickly gone to the residence or residences of the two failed robbers and sought out further stolen goods there.
> 
> The FACT remains that the Police did recovery various assorted stolen goods from the two robbers at the scene of their failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis.
> 
> THe loss of life is regrettable but is a clear cut result of living a life of crime.


 

Mr American Eagle, This the attitude of yours, that i hate so much, you are so biased, unipolar, extremely biased in your Thinking, with the advancement in age, you are becoming stubborn like all old people do,

*Why i'am saying all this? Because, You are Quoting the same Pakistani Police that says they are robbers, But When We Pakistani People Quotes Pakistani Police which says, Davis didn't act in Self Defense, and He Committed a Murder, You start acting as a person who is deaf and dumb. You start acting as Davis is saint, He Is some one who has done a righteous thing*

Why so much contradiction in your nature Old Man?


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Yes, REALLY. There are laws that are applicable here and they will be followed for sure.


 
What about the laws that we have here in Pak? Why not waive the immunity(assuming he has immunity which I dont subscribe to) and fight his case here? Or are our courts not free and unreliable?


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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> What about the laws that we have here in Pak? Why not waive the immunity and fight his case here? Or are our courts not free and unreliable?




Diplomatic Immunity makes only the laws of the USA applicable on RD. Pakistani laws and courts, as honorable as they truly are, have no jurisdiction. That is the crux of the matter.


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## Stealth

HANG THIS GUY!! Pakistani idiots love American PAK relation which is not actually relation thats >>> >>>> not >>> <<<


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Diplomatic Immunity makes only the laws of the USA applicable on RD. Pakistani laws and courts, as honorable as they truly are, have no jurisdiction. That is the crux of the matter.


 
So the US have to prove diplomatic immunity first. That my dear is the crux of the mattar. We are not aguing here the vienna convention. Our argument is that it does not apply to RD. If they can prove it, they are free to take their man. But our FO disagrees with his status and hence it should be dealt in pak courts and not the US.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Diplomatic Immunity makes only the laws of the USA applicable on RD. Pakistani laws and courts, as honorable as they truly are, have no jurisdiction. That is the crux of the matter.


 
*sigh* and we go back to the beginning - diplomatic immunity is not established, and it pretty much seems clear that the Pakistani FO does not believe blanket diplomatic immunity applies to Davis given the details of the correspondence between the Pakistani FO and the US Embassy that have been released in the media, and not yet denied by the US.

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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> So u have to prove diplomatic immunity first. That my dear is the crux of the mattar. We are aguing here the vienna convention. Our argument is that it does not apply to RD. If they can prove it, they are free to take their man. But our FO disagrees with his status and hence it should be dealt in pak courts and not the US.


 


AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *sigh* and we go back to the beginning - diplomatic immunity is not established, and it pretty much seems clear that the Pakistani FO does not believe blanket diplomatic immunity applies to Davis given the details of the correspondence between the Pakistani FO and the US Embassy that have been released in the media, and not yet denied by the US.



And as I have said before, let us wait for the official process to produce the FORMAL documents that will establish the immunity. It is only a matter of a few days more. In the meantime, maintaining a calm and rational approach would be good for all parties, but that is only my opinion.


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> And as I have said before, let us wait for the official process to produce the FORMAL documents that will establish the immunity. It is only a matter of a few days more. In the meantime, maintaining a calm and rational approach would be good for all parties, but that is only my opinion.


 
And how do i know that FORMAL paperwirk peoduced NOW is not forged, given that FO has been on record not to grant him blanket immunity? This makes it even more crucial to get him released through courts so that 180 mil people accept his status. Instead of jst banking on statments of the likes of wahab and malik. Courts must and should release him if he is indeed a diplomat and US needs to argue in courts. Tye whole reason US is not wanting to go through courts is because in my opinion they cant prove him a diplomat.


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## MZUBAIR

RescueRanger said:


> For God's sake... Let him go!!! Why ruin all this trust, all this good...
> 
> I want stronger relations between Pakistan and the USA. I wan't this to grow and flourish and i want us to sit back a bit, tone down the passion and hear both sides.
> 
> Things were handled badly on both sides... Lets move on beyond this.


 
Wt will happen to those who lost thier love ones...
Wt will happen to that lady who lost her life coz the GOV is so cruel.

Any of ur love one could be the victum .....still u would allow him to move out from Pakistan without trial.


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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> *And how do i know that FORMAL paperwirk peoduced NOW is not forged,* given that FO has been on record not to grant him blanket immunity? This makes it even more crucial to get him released through courts so that 180 mil people accept his status. Instead of jst banking on statments of the likes of wahab and malik. Courts must and should release him if he is indeed a diplomat and US needs to argue in courts. Tye whole reason US is not wanting to go through courts is because in my opinion they cant prove him a diplomat.



Well the, that is a question that speaks as to the lack of trust between the citizens and the government of Pakistan. Sir, that is not my problem, and neither is it RD's problem. I, for one, will believe the OFFICIAL paperwork produced by BOTH governments.


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## DV RULES

RescueRanger said:


> For God's sake... Let him go!!! Why ruin all this trust, all this good...
> 
> I want stronger relations between Pakistan and the USA. I wan't this to grow and flourish and i want us to sit back a bit, tone down the passion and hear both sides.
> 
> Things were handled badly on both sides... Lets move on beyond this.


 
Seems like dust of nationalism has VANISHED.

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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Well the, that is a question that speaks as to the lack of trust between the citizens and the government of Pakistan. Sir, that is not my problem, and neither is it RD's problem. I, for one, will believe the OFFICIAL paperwork produced by BOTH governments.


 
That is our problem cheng. That is our problem indeed and the only way to restore confidence between these institutes is to let law take its natural course. If he indeed is immune then US need not worry, but it has to be proven without a shadow of doubt. And I wd urge US not to interfere in a mannar that is counterproductive using pressure wont help. This issue is out in the open and their stance of immunity simply does not apply in this case. If it does they why so much panic in the US abt it?


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## ajtr

DV RULES said:


> Seems like dust of nationalism has VANISHED.


It has nothing to do with nationalism and patriotism.coz as the time is passing its becoming amply clear that this case is being used for domestic political rivalry between the parties.How state machinery like police and investigating agencies are used by local govt just to earn brawny points with the federal govt.And above all media is used selectively by leaking the investigating/interrogation tapes to reap from the anti-american sentiments prevailing in the common populace.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

DV RULES said:


> Seems like dust of nationalism has VANISHED.


 
oh come on .................. when your secretary information misses wahab is saying he cann,t be prosecuted so try to understand.
nothing is gona happen with our emotionalism or patriotism.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

ajtr said:


> It has nothing to do with nationalism and patriotism.coz as the time is passing its becoming amply clear that this case is being used for domestic political rivalry between the parties.How state machinery like police and investigating agencies are used by local govt just to earn brawny points with the federal govt.And above all media is used selectively by leaking the investigating/interrogation tapes to reap from the anti-american sentiments prevailing in the common populace.


 
well lets accept your point even then , he needs to be prosecuted in PAKISTAN and recent statements by ex-foreign minister clearly shows the picture that case is complex and america by force want him to be proved as diplomat , but in reality he isn,t.
even in those clips just note his attitude............
or he was made by media to act like that to infuriate PAKISTANI people .......
come on try to face some bitter realities......


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## Aslan

The courts in US are the biggest of jokes, I will tell you what will be the verdict, and now I here by confirm that Mr. Davis had acted under great duress and considering the fact that if he had not acted the way he did he would have been caused harm by the people who had attacked him. And thus the court is obliged to free him.

By the way Geo is reporting right now that our ministry of foreign affairs headed by Fozia niswar has declared now that RD is a diplomat and has immunity. What a shame. Well dear Fozia baigharat niswar, black water malik, Chordari and all other janwars may all of you burn in hell. Amin.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

now the point is ..... by acquitting davis from this case we are going to support extremists point of view that our government is being run by america and
america has no good feelings for people of PAKISTAN and blood of our people means nothing to her. 
they will provide some lip service but i am sure no action is going to be taken in america against him.......


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## Stealth

This govt and all spokesman of this govt is all time favor to India and America like before 26/11 Mumbai attacks and every time.. such a f****B*** Govt especially this **** Fozia wahab...


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Aslan said:


> The courts in US are the biggest of jokes, I will tell you what will be the verdict, and now I here by confirm that Mr. Davis had acted under great duress and considering the fact that if he had not acted the way he did he would have been caused harm by the people who had attacked him. And thus the court is obliged to free him.
> 
> By the way Geo is reporting right now that our ministry of foreign affairs headed by Fozia niswar has declared now that RD is a diplomat and has immunity. What a shame. Well dear Fozia baigharat niswar, black water malik, Chordari and all other janwars may all of you burn in hell. Amin.


 
well brother i lend countenance to what ever you said but don,t we know our leaders ...........
why we elect them .
actually 1st we need to correct our self then point fingers about them.........


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Stealth said:


> This govt and all spokesman of this govt is all time favor to India and America like before 26/11 Mumbai attacks and every time.. such a f****B*** Govt especially this **** Fozia wahab...


 
well looks to me she is on american or indian service rather than PAKISTANS................................
but don,t forget she is one of the best pet of mr zardari.........


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## ajtr

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> well lets accept your point even then , he needs to be prosecuted in PAKISTAN and recent statements by ex-foreign minister clearly shows the picture that case is complex and america by force want him to be proved as diplomat , but in reality he isn,t.
> even in those clips just note his attitude............
> or he was made by media to act like that to infuriate PAKISTANI people .......
> come on try to face some bitter realities......


That court has to decide and as it has already forwarded a note to the federal govt to prove his immunity(which is job of foreign affairs ministry).untill its proven he does has his right to remain silent as a diplomat.Now leaking all these info to media really bring into question the intentions of the local party ruling punjab.


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## ashok321

*Release Raymond Davis: Obama to Pakistan*




> "With respect to Mr Davis, our diplomat in Pakistan, we've got a very simple principle here that every country in the world that is party to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations has upheld in the past and should uphold in the future", Obama told reporters at a news conference.
> 
> "If our diplomats are in another country, then they are not subject to that country's local prosecution. We respect it with respect to diplomats who are here. We expect Pakistan, that's a signatory and recognize Mr Davis as a diplomat, to abide by the same convention", Obama said in response to a question.



Release Raymond Davis: Obama to Pakistan


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

i think someone should teach our leaders IQBAL,s poetry to make them understand what is nation and what is honour..........


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

ashok321 said:


> *Release Raymond Davis: Obama to Pakistan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Release Raymond Davis: Obama to Pakistan


 
dear issue is he wasn,t a diplomat even date of his visa was expired............ try to get reality


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## krash

easy sir....things are allot more complicated than that must use our minds for once.....and no I am not in favor of the PPP in anyway its what Pakistan needs that concerns me


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

ajtr said:


> That court has to decide and as it has already forwarded a note to the federal govt to prove his immunity(which is job of foreign affairs ministry).untill its proven he does has his right to remain silent as a diplomat.Now leaking all these info to media really bring into question the intentions of the local party ruling punjab.


 
actually problem is shah mahmood qureshi has been deprived from his ministry due to the fact that he was not ready to accept american pressure about anouncing him a diplomat.Fed Govt has made media and punjab government to behave like this.
recent statement my misses wahab clearly depict govt intentions.


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## Bilal Akhtar

i want to be a DIPLOMAT now!!


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

F-16_Falcon said:


> i am a supporter of PPP but if they free him without hanging than i want people to go street like egypt.


 
well i don,t think so , because we are used to now and very mush immune to such events. 
it would be discussed in media for about a month or two but soon after that new issue , new topics , new discussions ........................


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Bilal Akhtar said:


> i want to be a DIPLOMAT now!!


 
me toooooooooooooooo.............................


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## ashok321

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> dear issue is he wasn,t a diplomat even date of his visa was expired............ try to get reality


 
Tell it to Obama (the superpower POTUS) who has come out on this....One who has rolled out additional aid to Pakistan......

Do you want billions or you want RD?

BTW when was the last revolution in Pakistan since its inception?


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

American eagle---Davis will get out---but in due time---. The federal govt got blind sided by the provincial govt---the provincial govt has few taliban supporters in them---it is just the way it happened at such a fast pace that the feds could no do much and by the time they made a decision the provincial govt had the people riled up.

If the provincial govt in the begining had acted on info that the two were robbers and followed through---the people would not have been fired up so bad.

But you know---it is no different in the U S either---. Mr Davis has no diplomatic immunity---he never had---but there will be one manufactured for him---. I mean to say---we pakistanis have to live in this world as well----why to live miserably by taking the wrath of the united states----.

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## ashok321

Aslan said:


> Dude you seriously need to tone down on your bs now, lucky you that you are still here after the comment that you had made earlier. You keep running you shithole about the aid, have you ever seen what goes on in your own country. Another thing, the reason you get to show your auqat so much is that we have fags running the show in our country, and it gives opportunities to other fags to act likewise.


 
This is RD*Pak*US thread, why bring India here?
The fact is that aid is rolling out like a red carpet to Pakistan, why deny it?
GOP is wholesome in this decision of releasing RD to US right here.
Why do you write otherwise, if some one puts up some blunt questions?
I am sure, if you can chew, you can digest...


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## TOPGUN

Kill the bastard hang him by his  he is a spy and the bastard killed two of our Pakistani's hang the sucker

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## Aslan

ashok321 said:


> This is RD*Pak*US thread, why bring India here?
> The fact is that aid is rolling out like a red carpet to Pakistan, why deny it?
> GOP is wholesome in this decision of releasing RD to US right here.
> Why do you write otherwise, if some one puts up some blunt questions?
> I am sure, if you can chew, you can digest...


 
No one is asking you to stop asking questions. But then there is always a thin ling between respect and disrespect and you have crossed that line. So my comments are justified as I can clearly see that you have no respect for my country. So what you are doing is not asking questions but rather you are taking digs at us. And that is not acceptable. You want respect so act likewise, otherwise dont complain when you are at the receiving end of it.


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## singhvivek73

Jana said:


> Fauzia wahab is misquoting the Vienna Convention trying to fool the public or want to become a foreign minister


 
Jana - You always outline quick one-two liners in your response ! Pls. outline your specific concerns in as many words considering your journalistic background.


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## Aslan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> American eagle---Davis will get out---but in due time---. The federal govt got blind sided by the provincial govt---the provincial govt has few taliban supporters in them---it is just the way it happened at such a fast pace that the feds could no do much and by the time they made a decision the provincial govt had the people riled up.
> 
> If the provincial govt in the begining had acted on info that the two were robbers and followed through---the people would not have been fired up so bad.
> 
> But you know---it is no different in the U S either---. Mr Davis has no diplomatic immunity---he never had---but there will be one manufactured for him---. I mean to say---we pakistanis have to live in this world as well----why to live miserably by taking the wrath of the united states----.


 
What a nice way to sell your self short, have it not been made clear in this thread that they were not robbers. And the comment about taliban supporters, I have seen blacks in america going an extra mile to prove their loyalties. Looks like the desis are following that lead as well now. The federal gov is as corrupt as they come, and at the same time the provincial gov is no better. But they never came out with any such remarks to gain anything out of it as far as I remember they have been saying it from day one that they will respect the decision of the courts. But alas all I can say is that I always thought that you were better then that but looks like I thought wrong.

And do read what EX FM Quraishi had to say about the case.

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## RabzonKhan

*US, Pakistan need to move past Davis case: Kerry*


(55 minutes ago) Today


LAHORE: US Sen. John Kerry says Pakistan and the United States need to focus on their &#8221;many mutual interests&#8221; rather than letting the dispute over a jailed US embassy worker derail relations.

Raymond Davis has been detained since Jan 27, when he fatally shot two Pakistani men who he says were trying to rob him.

A chorus of American officials have called for his release on the grounds of diplomatic immunity, including President Barack Obama.

*Kerry reiterated the US stance Tuesday. He also said he regretted the deaths of the two Pakistani men and pledged Davis will be tried in an American court.*

Kerry spoke in Lahore while on a last-minute trip arranged amid tense relations between Washington and Islamabad over the Davis case.


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## RescueRanger

DV RULES said:


> Seems like dust of nationalism has VANISHED.



You cannot being to judge my nationalism. I don't prove my nationalism by frothing and foaming at the mouth on a online forum. My Nationalism in the duty i day everyday... I don't need to list my nationalism nor prove it. You seem to think that by trying to provoke an American response you will gain some pride or strength. 

Nay, you will lose what little leverage you have. Tone that passion down, unlike many on this forum who can safely express their tempestuous "nationalism" behind the safety of a computer, i live with the threat of getting blown up everyday.. And i do this for our people, for our Pakistan. Who know's the next call may be my last... 

So please don't make this personal and don't misjudge my honest concern for the fate of Pakistan with a lack of nationalism. Any fool can fly a flag on the 14th of August, come spend a day in my shoes, and you will not be so quick to judge my nationalism nor my allegiance to the crescent and the star. 

If you provoke the powers that be, you will be engulfed. You are the weaker party, you are between the hammer and an anvil(you know of what i speak). So please tone down that rhetoric and personal attacks and realize what is at stake, and you would risk this all for 1 Man? I am totally for discussing the moral and legal merits of this argument, but this stance... This is bloated by corrupt politicians and the embers have been fanned by the disgusting reporting of the media.

Do you honestly believe that uncle sam will be the looser in all of this?

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## fida jan

ashok321 said:


> Tell it to Obama (the superpower POTUS) who has come out on this....One who has rolled out additional aid to Pakistan......
> 
> Do you want billions or you want RD?
> 
> BTW when was the last revolution in Pakistan since its inception?


 
you have forced me to say this by your posts here that you are one ugly SOB.....

sorry i couldnt resist...

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## VCheng

I stress once again, please keep the rhetoric down and let the official process conclude. Then we can all move one to dissect the the pros and the cons of the aftermath at leisure.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Davis will get out---but in due time---. The federal govt got blind sided by the provincial govt---the provincial govt has few taliban supporters in them---it is just the way it happened at such a fast pace that the feds could no do much and by the time they made a decision the provincial govt had the people riled up.



MK &#8211; I am always happy to read your posts because there is seldom a time where you are irrational or incorrect. However I actually take issue with this statement. You are basically implying ''sorry we disrespected you; we have some problems at home (which we do) and it was those problems which caused us to placate our people at the expense of our relationship&#8217;&#8217;

On one hand, we talk about respecting the local courts decision, on the other hand some say that the courts and all the politicans and people are wrong. 

Conventions or no conventions; compliance or dereliction --- 3 people were killed; 2 under circumstances still being determined by law enforcement. 1 killed due to absolutely wanton disrespect for road safety and the lives of the locals &#8211;which was demonstrated by the fact that the vehicle drove away (rendering it a crime scene).

as for taleban supporters -- if and when they exist in govt. they should also be exposed



> If the provincial govt in the begining had acted on info that the two were robbers and followed through---the people would not have been fired up so bad.



Regardless of who they were, WAS DAVIS AUTHORIZED TO CARRY FIREARMS; WAS HE AUTHORIZED TO DRIVE IN A CAR WITH FAKE REGISTRATION AND PLATES&#8230;..



> But you know---it is no different in the U S either---. Mr Davis has no diplomatic immunity---he never had---but there will be one manufactured for him---. I mean to say---we pakistanis have to live in this world as well----why to live miserably by taking the wrath of the united states----.



Fear is no policy
Surrender is no option

When your moral cause is right,
Then you know that you are righteous

If ''wrath&#8217;&#8217; means blackmail, then so be it&#8230;..There&#8217;s a difference between defiance vs. standing up for the lives of your citizens and their honour. There&#8217;s a difference between prudence vs. having a defeatist attitude. (not implied towards you necessarily)


by the way, I too want a normalization of ties with US. This incident has been a huge thorn in the side. The Americans should at least find out who the other drivers were; they should also charge the 2 in U.S. courts --rather than bring him back to a ''heros'' welcome --which would be a huge slap in the face to Pakistanis --especially the families of those directly affected by this incident, which took place in a zone where said ''officials'' were not even supposed to be in in the first place

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## RescueRanger

Stealth said:


> HANG THIS GUY!! Pakistani idiots love American PAK relation which is not actually relation thats >>> >>>> not >>> <<<


 
Why do you feel you have the right to call those who do not share your opinion, idiots?

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## Aslan

RescueRanger said:


> You cannot being to judge my nationalism. I don't prove my nationalism by frothing and foaming at the mouth on a online forum. My Nationalism in the duty i day everyday... I don't need to list my nationalism nor prove it. You seem to think that by trying to provoke an American response you will gain some pride or strength.
> 
> Nay, you will lose what little leverage you have. Tone that passion down, unlike many on this forum who can safely express their tempestuous "nationalism" behind the safety of a computer, i live with the threat of getting blown up everyday.. And i do this for our people, for our Pakistan. Who know's the next call may be my last...
> 
> So please don't make this personal and don't misjudge my honest concern for the fate of Pakistan with a lack of nationalism. Any fool can fly a flag on the 14th of August, come spend a day in my shoes, and you will not be so quick to judge my nationalism nor my allegiance to the crescent and the star.
> 
> If you provoke the powers that be, you will be engulfed. You are the weaker party, you are between the hammer and an anvil(you know of what i speak). So please tone down that rhetoric and personal attacks and realize what is at stake, and you would risk this all for 1 Man? I am totally for discussing the moral and legal merits of this argument, but this stance... This is bloated by corrupt politicians and the embers have been fanned by the disgusting reporting of the media.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that uncle sam will be the looser in all of this?


 
Sir ji I completely agree with every thing that you had said, and we as Pakistanis shouldnt be pointing fingers at each other. After all that has been our shortcoming since day one that we had not trusted our own. Now when I also agree with you that we cant live with the US going against us at this point of time. We should could have made a better effort and could have atleast handled the issue in a way kay sanp bhi marjayee and lathi bhi na totay. But unfortunately the leaders that we have. Well sir ji keep up the good work. And thank you for your services to this great country of ours.

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## F-16_Falcon

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> well i don,t think so , because we are used to now and very mush immune to such events.
> it would be discussed in media for about a month or two but soon after that new issue , new topics , new discussions ........................


 
no not this time. army will not let this happen. people will go to street ,protests already started in the streets of lahore.


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## RescueRanger

Bilal Akhtar said:


> i want to be a DIPLOMAT now!!


 
If you have $200,000 then these guys can help you with that request:
Apply for a Diplomatic Passport - Legal & Confidential Service


----------



## ajtr

*Beyond redemption​*




Beyond redemption 

*The Raymond Davis affair could disengage the US from faster than it had planned for, says N.V.Subramanian*.

14 February 2011: The Raymond Davis affair will complicate US efforts to moderate and further democratize Pakistan and to win in Afghanistan. Here's why. 

*The first major political casualty of the Davis affair is Shah Mahmood Qureshi*, who was dropped as foreign minister in the recent cabinet reshuffle. Almost certainly, *the US had him removed *(just as it ensured an extension for General Ashfaq Kayani). 

According to the Pakistani press, Qureshi refused to grant Davis diplomatic immunity. *Qureshi is a Punjab politician and was playing politics*. 

*Punjab more than any other province has been on the boil since Davis killed his two armed assailants in a crowded Lahore street*. It is *no coincidence that the governor of Punjab was murdered *for his anti-blasphemy views and his police-guard killer is being venerated there. 

Among others, *the Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorist leader, Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed, based in Punjab*, has warned against releasing Davis. *After NWFP and FATA, Punjab is probably most anti-American*. 

Obviously, Qureshi wanted to feed on this hate for his own politics. *Anti-India feelings also run highest in Punjab. Qureshi was active here too, deriding Manmohan Singh as powerless and running down the Indo-Pak dialogue*. 

On the Indian foreign minister's last visit to Pakistan, Qureshi toed the Pakistan military line to misbehave with S.M.Krishna. He hoped to get away by being tough on Davis. But he overplayed his hand. 

*And yet, Qureshi has done the damage. Whatever happens to his personal political career after this is not relevant to this piece. But Qureshi has essentially sowed the seeds of discord between Punjab and Sind on the Davis issue*. 

The Pakistan Punjab police have called Davis a cold-blooded murderer. It is not accidental that *Punjab is ruled by Nawaz Sharief's brother Shahbaz.The US has opposed Nawaz Sharief and prefers Asif Zardari*. This is Nawaz Sharief's revenge. 

Knowing that he needed a Punjabi foil to rule, Zardari got a Punjab politician, Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani, as PM. Qureshi got into rivalry with Gilani for his job and went too far. But in the process, *Gilani too has been damaged on the Davis affair in Punjab, and more than him, Zardari*. 

*If* immediate moves are made to *let Davis go, the attacks will commence on Zardari as Sindhi. His attempts to balance Punjabi and Sindhi politics in the government will be upset*. This writer does not see how Davis can be released anytime soon, whatever pressure America brings on. 

Indeed, the US itself has raised the stakes on Davis by some of its actions. It is understandable that America has suspended all engagement with Pakistan till Davis is released. *The pressure of this on Pakistan, which survives on US dole, cannot be minimized*. :mrgreen: 

According to media reports, *the US has also held up all drone attacks on FATA since Davis' arrest*. Clearly, the US does not wish to aggravate matters until Davis is brought back. *But it shows up US vulnerabilities*. 

*In case Davis does get released, the drone attacks may resume*. They will have too. *Because short of a ground invasion, the US and NATO forces have no means other than drones to counter the Al-Qaeda and Taliban leadership directing the Afghan war from Pakistani hideouts*. 

But *after the Davis affair, how far bold will the US get in Pakistan? Will it continue with its policy to increment its presence in Pakistan to moderate it or, embracing caution, downsize? If Davis gets off, will Zardari be able to survive the backlash from Punjab, not to speak of the rabidity of fundamentalist and terrorist forces elsewhere in Pakistan*? 

Probably, all these questions are being tossed about in Islamabad and Washington as Pakistan and the US size up the messy Davis affair. *This comes on top of a very bad situation in Afghanistan, where the war is not going to plan, and the US will have to leave the country with unfulfilled objectives*. 

Presumably, *the only certainty is that Davis will have to be released. But his release will raise the tide of anti-Americanism. This could be countered with pressure on India on Kashmir*. But this won't come to pass. 

*This writer thinks that the Davis affair marks a watershed in Pak-US relations. Alongside of cutting its losses in Afghanistan, the US may pitch for reducing its presence in Pakistan, and letting it sink. 

The only factor that prevents the US -- and the rest of the world -- from consigning Pakistan to its wretched fate is its growing stockpile of nuclear weapons and fissile material. Sooner or later, a solution has to be found for this. 

As of now, Pakistan is beyond redemption.*


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## Capt.Popeye

RescueRanger said:


> If you have $200,000 then these guys can help you with that request:
> Apply for a Diplomatic Passport - Legal & Confidential Service


 
Yes, these "facilities" and "facilitators" exist. And in fact they can arrange some kind of "diplomatic" status. Years ago a (big-time) scamster in India hot-footed it out of the country after bilking millions of dollars from the Banks and Govt. financial institutions (in the 60s that was big money). Later he surfaced in Mexico and USA. When the GoI tried to apprehend and extradite him, he presented a "Diplomatic Passport" from Costa Rica. The ploy worked for some time but eventually he got a one-way ticket to an Indian prison

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## 53fd

Re: Rahat Fateh Ali freed, says Indian TV

I must say, the fan I am of Pakistan music, & especially of classic singers like NFAK & Rahet Fateh, I feel the Indian authorities did the right thing in detaining him. No one is above the law, & I am perplexed as to how Rahet Fateh even thought he could carry so much money from India. Of course I have no doubt he wasn't doing anything suspicious (he probably earned the money through concerts, working for music agencies etc), but how he thought he could just take that kind of money is astonishing behavior on his part. I don't know how money transfers through banks work between pakistan & india, if it's the same like in every other country, but he would have been much more intelligent if he was doing the legal thing by trying to deposit the money in a bank, wirelessly transferring the money into his bank account in Pakistan. The Indian airport authorities have every right to question & detain him, he isn't above the law & no one else is. We shouldn't be supporting any Pakistani blindly if they're in the wrong, just like Indians shouldn't support any guilty Indian blindly, as well as Americans in the case of Raymond Davis.


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## RescueRanger

ajtr said:


> *Beyond redemption​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N.V.Subramanian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *rolls eyes*
> 
> Yes, yes Mr. Subramanian... The Sky is falling, run to the hills.
Click to expand...

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## Capt.Popeye

bilalhaider said:


> Re: Rahat Fateh Ali freed, says Indian TV
> 
> I must say, the fan I am of Pakistan music, and especially of classic singers like NFAK and Rahet Fateh, I feel the Indian authorities did the right thing in detaining him. No one is above the law, and I am perplexed as to how Rahet Fateh even thought he could carry so much money from India. Of course I have no doubt he wasn't doing anything suspicious (he probably earned the money through concerts, working for music agencies etc), but how he thought he could just take that kind of money is astonishing behavior on his part. I don't know how money transfers through banks work between pakistan and india, if it's the same like in every other country, but he would have been much more intelligent if he was doing the legal thing by trying to deposit the money in a bank, wirelessly transferring the money into his bank account in Pakistan. The Indian airport authorities have every right to question and detain him, he isn't above the law and no one else is. We shouldn't be supporting any Pakistani blindly if they're in the wrong, just like Indians shouldn't support any guilty Indian blindly, as well as Americans in the case of Raymond Davis.


 
You have made very well reasoned and reasonable points in your post. Just that it seems to be in the wrong thread.
And to add a little information:
It is crystal clear that the money was a legal income, probably paid out and being transferred in illicit manner. Performers like him earn money through various recordings, celebrity appearances and concerts. He probably did all this to avoid paying income tax in India and possibly in Pakistan. So it is only an economic offense and the people who paid him and facilitated this whole thing will be investigated and the matter taken to a logical and legal conclusion. Rahat will not go to jail if found liable, there will be a penalty and fine imposed. That's all.


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan alos need to investigate the source of the illegal fire arms, illegal license plates/papers. American embassey staff also had fake licence plates before and were caught in Gawdar.


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## r3alist

> It was a simple case of attempted armed robbery by two documented Pakitani crooks/robbers which went astray when Mr. Davis dared to try to denfend himself.




*you have no facts, there are conflicting reports.

if pakistani's are guilty of jumping to conclusions, then so are you, stop with the trolling.




anyway, lets for a minute assume that he has diplomatic immunity - big deal - he has been caught red handed with possessions that imply nefarious activities, and very likely instigating terrorism in pakistan.

solomon and american, great warriors of the internet that they are, have hardly spoken about this.


its for this reason that PERHAPS elements in the pakistani govt are insistent on saying he was NOT a diplomat, because that would make them look complicit???*

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## AstanoshKhan

*Every Lahori/Lahorites is requested to be a part of this protest.

Time: Sunday, February 20 · 4:00pm - 6:30pm
Location: Liberty Roundabout Main Boulevard Gulberg Lahore, Pakistan

More Info	Its quite eminent that the jailed US Black Ops Agent "Raymond Davis" will be released soon. This corrupt government has taken such dishonored decisions and its about time that the people of Pakistan show what they want.*

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## Mutee

And also---THIS TERM IS ALSO VERY UN-ISLAMIC-----a muslim is never a proud whomsoever---you can be proud of someone else----but not of yourself---.
Yes you are right mr mastsn khan and I was wrong proudness is a sift only for ALLAH only and not for a human being I agree with that part rest I can debate but will get soo long but for now I will admit I lost this argument

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## Mutee

Trust me he will go free please please this army and goby doesn't have the courage to stand against Americans he will be alright in. A months time mark my words or this post


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## RabzonKhan

AstanoshKhan said:


> *Every Lahorian is requested to be a part of this protest.
> 
> Time: Sunday, February 20 · 4:00pm - 6:30pm
> Location: Liberty Roundabout Main Boulevard Gulberg Lahore, Pakistan
> 
> More Info	Its quite eminent that the jailed US Black Ops Agent "Raymond Davis" will be released soon. This corrupt government has taken such dishonored decisions and its about time that the people of Pakistan show what they want.*


 Khan Sahib, we are called Lahoris, not Lahorian.

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## VelocuR

This SUV looked similar. 

So how many more Raymond Davis around in Pakistan like this?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

RaptorRX707 said:


> This SUV looked similar.



that appears to be a GMC Suburban. I'd be surprised if they were driving around Pakistan in those things. As far as I know, the car that ran over the pedestrian and fled from the scene was a Land Cruiser (Prado?)



Rabzon said:


> Khan Sahib, we called Lahoris, not Lahorian.



Lahorites

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## RescueRanger

RaptorRX707 said:


> This SUV looked similar.
> 
> So how many more Raymond Davis around in Pakistan like this?


 
That picture is in Iraq, not Pakistan.

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## RabzonKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Lahorites


 Ok, that sounds cool.


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## AstanoshKhan

@Rabzon
My bad. Correction has been made and YES Abu that is cool.

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## VelocuR

Yes, pictures was taking in Iraq, it could be example in Pakistan. 


> RescueRanger
> For God's sake... Let him go!!! Why ruin all this trust, all this good... I want stronger relations between Pakistan and the USA. I wan't this to grow and flourish and i want us to sit back a bit, tone down the passion and hear both sides. Things were handled badly on both sides... Lets move on beyond this.



Sir, we both agree US/Pakistan relation should move forward, how can we trust US even though they killed our innocents people by CIA agents, Drones attack, Aids, Blackwaters, urdu-speaking undercover foreigners, heavy pressures. I am disappointed, we unable to stand up ourselves in mutual respect and laws. Simple throw away.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> I stress once again, please keep the rhetoric down and let the official process conclude. Then we can all move one to dissect the the pros and the cons of the aftermath at leisure.



Talk abt some fcuking adaptability ... I likes..! Its indeed mighty hard, howd you do that ... is it that you have become numb over time...!


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## VCheng

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Talk abt some fcuking adaptability ... I likes..! Its indeed mighty hard, howd you do that ... is it that you have become numb over time...!



No Sir. I feel, think and care for both the land of my birth and the land of my future just fine, without feeling numb at all. Thank you for the compliments hidden behind the abuse and sarcasm, but you do realise I am correct about my point, I hope.


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## DV RULES

Self deleted


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## American Eagle

Thank you for your forthright comments about me. I am focused on International Law, the Convention and associated Treaties, which at present the Government of Pakistan, not the Pakistani court sytem, must officially deal with by admitting Diplomatic Immunity does apply.

When things as of today, Tuesday, Feb. 15, rise to the level of President Obama making his remaraks in a live, open press conference from the White House stating that Raymond Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and must be released by the GOP acknowledging this fact, you might understand that what you perceive to be my old age senility and stubborness is our, plural, most Americans, frustration of the failure of the GOP to honor and obey International Law which gives Mr. Davis Diplomatic Immunity.

Beyond that point of order, which is of course a major one for the President of the US to comment on, then other issues which the GOP might want to bring up through quiet, non-publicized diplomatic channels with no more "leaks" to the Pakistani or other world media, can be calmly discussed and sorted out separately.

It is not my stubborness that you are reading, it is the fact that I as an old Pakistani hand of nearly two years service in Pakistan, where I had and still have several good friends, am very baffled that petty internal Pakistani politics would dare be used to refuse to obey International Law which is over and apart from the GOP and the court system them.

The degree of bias shown against me on this site comes across to me as from perhaps mainly younger folks, but perhaps some older Pakistanis, too, who don't understand where Western values come from in such a matter. I will offer you my personal interpretation: To me it is irrational and goofy to make martyrs out of two men who were robbers, criminals, by Western standards, to the point of some on this site calling for Mr. Davis to immediately by lynched by a mob.

At no time have I used curse words on this site, ever, but many such curse words are being thrown at me and I have asked privately and now ask openly for the Administrators and Moderators of this good site, PDF, to eliminate, erase, and give points to everyone who has been so immature and rude as to descend to cursing on line here. 

Here we in this instance of Mr. Davis are dealing with a Pakistani Court Order to the Pakistani Foreign Office to give a FO ruling that Mr. Davis is or is not per International Law, covered by Diplomatic Immunity.

Part of the problem I do recognize and understand is that in recent months "someone", a bureaucrat, inside the Pakistani Foreign Office, has put language into Pakistani interpretations of and denial of established Diplomatic Immunity laws, rules, procedures, and established practice. This of course is very dangerous not just in the Raymond Davis flap but in terms of proper Diplomatic Immunity for all worldwide nations Foreign Service personnel serving in each others reciprocal nations. Pakistani Foreign Service, at all levels to include Consular, administrative, security, etal in the US.

Closing this reply to your inquiry as to why do I "seem" to be so stubborn, I hope the above, which you can today see reflects US observance of International Diplomatic Immunity understanding I practice to be the same as that given publicly by President Obama today on worldwide media, live.

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## r3alist

ok nice story but you still do not have the facts to back up your points, and the same for many pakistani's.

i suggest you avoid the trap of being hypocritical.


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## American Eagle

I guess I did a lousy job of explaining. Whatever you and any others who are good citizens of the same world we all exist in together might misunderstand is....with Diplomatic Immunity whatever I, you, or anyone else thinks the facts are or are not is not the subject nor the issue when Mr. Davis first and foremost is protected from action in Pakistan because he has 100% Diplomatic Immunity.

Regarding facts, separate and apart from Diplomatic Immunity, is a different subject entirely.

Perhaps this partial script from the Monday, Feb. 14, 2011 VOICE OF AMERICA radio broadcast will help you see, agreeing or not, where we Westerners under International Law, have our focus:



> Earlier on Monday, Pakistan People's Party spokeswoman Fauzia Wahab told reporters in the city of Karachi that Pakistan has always abided by international law which grants diplomatic immunity and that Raymond Davis has an official diplomatic visa.
> 
> Pakistani officials later said Wahab's remarks were her personal opinion and did not reflect the stance of the government. They said the case is now in court and would be decided by the court.
> 
> Davis is accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore last month during what he says was an attempted armed robbery. But Pakistani police have called the American a "cold-blooded murderer."
> 
> The United States says Davis should be protected by diplomatic immunity and has called for his immediate release.
> 
> The case has heightened tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan, with Washington postponing annual ministerial talks scheduled for later this month


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## r3alist

with all due respect thats not substantive, did she not retract her statement?






anyhow, put to one side the issue of whether he was technically a diplomat or not.







speak about his professional killing, to what he was in possesion of, to his alleged spying - this is no ordinary diplomat, he looks like a trained killer, and he behaved like one.


the americans will very likely get their man back, but now the whole pakistani population knows about their trained killers, so it will be an empty victory for the americans, our dear allies.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Davis is &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, declares FO

Updated at 30 PST Wednesday, February 16, 2011
ISLAMABAD: A letter written to Law Ministry from Foreign Office, declared the US double murderer of two Pakistani citizens, Raymond Davis, &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, Geo News reported late Tuesday.

According to letter, US citizen Raymond Davis was designated in Pakistan at US consulate in Lahore as &#8216;a diplomat&#8217; and all the same, he enjoys &#8216;diplomatic immunity&#8217; according to Vienna Convention.

A few minutes ago, US President Obama and Senator Kerry demanded Pakistan to acknowledge Davis as a diplomat and urged for his early release.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Davis is &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, declares FO
> 
> Updated at 30 PST Wednesday, February 16, 2011
> ISLAMABAD: A letter written to Law Ministry from Foreign Office, declared the US double murderer of two Pakistani citizens, Raymond Davis, &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, Geo News reported late Tuesday.
> 
> According to letter, US citizen Raymond Davis was designated in Pakistan at US consulate in Lahore as &#8216;a diplomat&#8217; and all the same, he enjoys &#8216;diplomatic immunity&#8217; according to Vienna Convention.
> 
> A few minutes ago, US President Obama and Senator Kerry demanded Pakistan to acknowledge Davis as a diplomat and urged for his early release.


 
triple Pee motherfukin roaches.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Paisa hazam , kahani khatam............


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## American Eagle

This Lahore DAILY TIMES STORY shows the FO and GOP have obeyed their own court Order to decide Mr. Davis is or is not under diplomatic. The answer is Mr. Davis is under and protected by Diplomatic Immunity, per the letter of today from the Pakistani FO to the court.

*Raymond Davis is a diplomat: Foreign Ministry*


> Lahore DAILY TIMES Wednesday, Feb. 16, 2011
> 
> LAHORE: The Foreign Ministry has declared Raymond Allen Davis, an American national who murdered two civilians in Lahore, a US diplomat, a private TV channel reported on Tuesday. In a letter, which it wrote to the Interior Ministry, the Foreign Ministry maintained that Raymond Davis was a diplomat who enjoyed immunity under the Vienna Convention. &#8220;The letter also states that Raymond Davis was appointed as a diplomat in the US Embassy in Islamabad,&#8221; the channel said. daily times monitor



This story is copied and pasted directly from your Lahore DAILY TIMES Wednesday, Feb. 16, 2011 Internet edition/on line.


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## rubyjackass

Aslan said:


> What a nice way to sell your self short, have it not been made clear in this thread that they were not robbers. And the comment about taliban supporters, I have seen blacks in america going an extra mile to prove their loyalties. Looks like the desis are following that lead as well now. The federal gov is as corrupt as they come, and at the same time the provincial gov is no better. But they never came out with any such remarks to gain anything out of it as far as I remember they have been saying it from day one that they will respect the decision of the courts. But alas all I can say is that I always thought that you were better then that but looks like I thought wrong.
> 
> And do read what EX FM Quraishi had to say about the case.



I see the merit in what Mastan Khan ji says. It does not matter what happened there in fact and who the two dead guys are. Most probably they are innocent people who caused a false alarm for David and he is very likely a well trained operative. But he has diplomatic passport and US wants him out. The question of applicability of immunity does not matter here. As Mastan Khan ji earlier said, it will be manufactured if it was not already there. And for Pakistan, given the great deal in which US helps the economy, it may not be such a bad deal. But true, it is selling your soul. But agin the world is what it is.

But I feel that the situation will turn explosive for US once Davis is released. Extremists will gain more support. I also suspect that the government will fall soon after that.


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## third eye

BBC News - US Senator to plead Raymond Davis immunity in Pakistan


*US Senator to plead Raymond Davis immunity in Pakistan*

Pakistani police escort US national Raymond Davis (centre) to a court in Lahore on 28 January 2011 Raymond Davis says the men were trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint

Influential US Senator John Kerry has arrived in Pakistan in a bid to resolve a row sparked by the arrest of a US citizen for killing two men in Lahore.

Pakistan's fragile ties with the US have been thrown into crisis since Raymond Davis was taken into custody after confessing to the shootings.

Mr Kerry's arrival coincided with President Barack Obama saying that Mr Davis should have diplomatic immunity.

The president said it would be untenable if diplomats were prosecuted.

Earlier the US government announced that it would prove before a Pakistani court later this week that Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity.

The 36-year-old was remanded for 14 days on Friday over last month's killings.

He has said that he shot the two men in self-defence as they were trying to rob him.

The case is threatening to derail US ties with Pakistan, a crucial ally in the fight against militants.

Mr Kerry, who is also the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations committee, aims to find a resolution to the issue and lower the pressure on Pakistan's coalition government, an American official told the AFP news agency.

He will hold talks with senior officials in Islamabad and reaffirm US support for Pakistan, the US Embassy in Islamabad said.

President Obama for the first time entered the argument on Tuesday, saying that while he was not "callous" about the shooting, Mr Davis enjoyed diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Conventions.
Call for clarity

"We expect Pakistan... to abide by the same convention," the president told a news conference.

"If they [diplomats] start being vulnerable to prosecution, that's untenable."

Mr Davis is charged on two counts - murder and possession of illegal weapons.

The court has ordered the Pakistani government to clarify US embassy claims that he has immunity.

Mr Davis has reportedly been sent to the high-security Kot Lakhpat jail in Lahore. His next hearing is scheduled for 25 February.

It is not clear what his role in Lahore was - American officials in the capital Islamabad have said only that he was an US embassy employee who was part of the "administrative and technical staff".

The Associated Press news agency says Pentagon records show that Mr Davis is a former Special Forces soldier who left the army in 2003 after 10 years of service.


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## third eye

*All sorts of flip flops.. within GOP & PPP.*


Govt bows low to US frowns | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

By: Nisar Mehdi | Published: February 15, 2011 

KARACHI  Raymond Davis (the American who shot dead two Pakistanis) *enjoys diplomatic immunity and has an official visa, said PPP Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab in the first overt vindication of the popular belief that the PPP-led government would hardly hold its ground in face of American pressure on the issue.*

The statement is in stark contrast to former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshis earlier disclosure that Davis isnt a diplomat according to the Foreign Office record. Dropping Qureshi from the slimline cabinet as foreign minister itself was indicative of the posture government has now taken openly.

Addressing a press conference at the Karachi Press Club, PPP Fauzia Wahab said that Pakistan is the signatory of Vienna Convention, therefore, all the diplomats enjoy immunity, adding that diplomats cannot be arrested under this convention. *She said that Davis possess diplomatic passport, therefore, he enjoyed immunity and had an official visa.*

We have always abided by international laws and conventions, Fauzia said. Davis has an official business visa, so why argue and *why we are risking our overall good reputation before the rest of the world?*
The US State Department on Saturday postponed a round of high-level talks with Afghanistan and Pakistan following failed attempts to get Pakistan to release Davis. US lawmakers have threatened to cut payments to Pakistan, the beneficiary of $7.5 billion dollars of aid and $2 billion in military aid, and Washington has warned that high-level dialogue is at risk unless Davis is freed.

*America is the largest market for Pakistan, with whom we earn four billion dollars. Most Pakistanis who live in the United States send bulk of remittances to us to support our economy, said Fauzia.*

Hundreds of Pakistanis have taken to the streets demanding that Davis be hanged over the killings. A third Pakistani man was run over and killed by a US consulate vehicle that made a failed attempt to recover Davis.Davis was arrested Jan 27 in Lahore after he shot dead two men on a motorcycle.

Lahore police decided to charge him under Section 302 of the Pakistan Penal Code that deals with murder by design. The question of his diplomatic immunity had not been entertained by the provincial and federal governments openly until Fauzias statement.

To a question, *Fauzia said that then foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi had violated party discipline by issuing irresponsible statements on such a sensitive issue.*

Qureshi had said that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and US envoy to Pakistan Cameron Munter telephoned him and put pressure to confirm diplomatic immunity for Raymond although it was not confirmed by Foreign Office records.

Pakistans Foreign Office had initially declared that Raymond did not enjoy diplomatic immunity. A couple of petitions have also been filed against his diplomatic status and his possible handing-over to the US by the Lahore High Court.

America is the largest market for Pakistan, with whom we earn four billion dollars. Most Pakistanis who live in the United States send bulk of remittances to us to support our economy, said Fauzia while pleading immunity for Davis.

*It is against the party discipline that you reject the decision of the party leadership, his (Qureshis) refusal was not appropriate,* she said adding that Qureshis statement in the newspapers was also against the party rules.

She said the party would issue him a show cause notice to seek his views and then decide his fate in the light of party rules and regulations.* She also said new foreign minister would be appointed very soon.*

She also said serious disciplinary action will be taken against Qureshi for violating the party discipline and humiliating its leadership.
She also said Qureshis performance as foreign minister during the entire tenure had been below par, saying he failed to support President Zardari when his foreign trips came under question.

*However, a subsequent statement by Farhatullah Babar, the presidential spokesman, said that Fauzias statement was her personal view and not the partys stance on the issue.
*


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## Omar1984

Video info. posted by youtube user ViennaConvention6341

Raymond Davis case - Barack Obama, BADLY ill-informed on Vienna Conventions on Consular Relations

President Barack Obama makes a statement during a news conference on the White House complex in Washington, Tuesday, Feb. 15, 2011. -- AP Photo/Charles Dharapak

n his first public remarks on a case that has cast a chill over an already uneasy partnership, Obama said that detained official Raymond Davis enjoyed diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Conventions.

"We expect Pakistan... to abide by the same convention," Obama told a news conference.

"We're going to be continuing to work with the Pakistani government to get this person released," he said.

Prez Obama is misinformed about the Vienna convention: Here is the relevant law:

The US State Department is also carefully avoiding mentioning a later treaty, the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963. That treaty, which extends and further clarifies, and where there may be a conflict, would supersede the earlier treaty, states in Section II, Article 41 in its first paragraph regarding the "Personal inviolability of consular officers":

Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.

The law here would seem to be quite clear. If Davis was in Lahore on anything other than official consular business, and if he killed two people "in cold blood" as the Lahore prosecutor has stated, then legal authorities in Pakistan are absolutely within their rights under the Vienna Conventions to be holding him for trial.

"Obviously, we're concerned about the loss of life. We're not callous about that, but there is a broader principle at stake," Obama said.

The real BROADER PRINCIPLE is the rule of Law and operation of judiciary without PRESSURE.

The Vienna 63-41 is very clear that Raymond Davis is to be tried in the court of the land where he committed the crime and executed for murder - if the court finds him guilty.

Obama said that diplomatic immunity was critical because otherwise diplomats who "deliver to tough messages to countries where we disagree with them" will "start being vulnerable to prosecution locally." "That's untenable. It means they can't do their job," Obama said.

It is untenable if a immunity is claimed for a criminal and he or she is labelled as diplomat.

I can claim that the alleged murderer of Chandra Levy has diplomatic immunity. Also there is no proof if she assaulted him as Monica assaulted Bill Clinton.

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## VCheng

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> Davis is &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, declares FO
> 
> Updated at 30 PST Wednesday, February 16, 2011
> ISLAMABAD: A letter written to Law Ministry from Foreign Office, declared the US double murderer of two Pakistani citizens, Raymond Davis, &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, Geo News reported late Tuesday.
> 
> According to letter, US citizen Raymond Davis was designated in Pakistan at US consulate in Lahore as &#8216;a diplomat&#8217; and all the same, he enjoys &#8216;diplomatic immunity&#8217; according to Vienna Convention.
> 
> A few minutes ago, US President Obama and Senator Kerry demanded Pakistan to acknowledge Davis as a diplomat and urged for his early release.




....and another key piece of OFFICIAL evidence falls into place, just as predicted.

Again, I stress to all, keeping rhetroic down and thinking through the process as it proceeds *calmly *is essential.


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## Solomon2

r3alist said:


> ...lets for a minute assume that he has diplomatic immunity - big deal - he has been caught red handed with possessions that imply nefarious activities, and very likely instigating terrorism in pakistan...its for this reason that PERHAPS elements in the pakistani govt are insistent on saying he was NOT a diplomat, because that would make them look complicit?


Has any Pakistani official actually said this on the record? For it doesn't matter what kind of "nefarious activity" a diplomat with immunity is suspected of committing; he has immunity, period. A government can expel him and (if a U.S. diplomat) can initiate legal proceedings against him in the U.S., but the host government cannot hold him in prison, not even for an investigation. 

If that offends your sense of justice, well, that's quite normal. No two peoples have the same sense of what is just and what is not. So instead of _justice_ we have _fairness_ - standards unbiased independent of context. The standards of diplomatic immunity apply to everyone who has it no matter what they are doing and in every country.


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## American Eagle

Aye, Aye! Will do and have been doing.


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## Solomon2

Omar1984 said:


> ...a later treaty, the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963. That treaty, which extends and further clarifies, and where there may be a conflict, would supersede the earlier treaty...The law here would seem to be quite clear. If Davis was in Lahore on anything other than official consular business, and if he killed two people "in cold blood" as the Lahore prosecutor has stated, then legal authorities in Pakistan are absolutely within their rights under the Vienna Conventions to be holding him for trial.


Quiz time, folks! Let's see if any Pakistanis out there have learned enough the past few days to answer Omar's assertions. I'm not going to repeat myself this time!


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## Omar1984

I wonder what would be the reaction of the American public if a Pakistani "diplomat" shot two white Americans in New York on broad day light and then claimed he killed those white Americans in self defence.

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## SekrutYakhni

This was a precedent set by American and Pakistani government. If he was a diplomat, his status would have been acclaimed right away by American government. Instead, they had to take _'few'_ days to come to that conclusion. Let alone, bullets were shot from the behind etc etc

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## Developereo

Question for Americans:

Don't you think the US should waive immunity in the interest of justice and mutual trust? After all, this is no mere parking violation; there are three deaths involved. If they feel Davis cannot get a fair trial in Lahore, they can make the immunity conditional on FBI involvement in the investigation. It would be a good face saving compromise for both sides.

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## Omar1984

*Senate body to support Qureshi on Davis immunity row*

ISLALABAD: The Senate&#8217;s Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs is all set to take the PPP to task while backing Shah Mehmood Qureshi on the status of diplomatic immunity to US citizen Raymond Davis.

The panel is headed by opposition Senator Saleem Saifullah Khan who said on Tuesday:* &#8220;We have sought a detailed report from Foreign Office (FO) as the US official could not be given free hand to keep on killing innocent people.&#8221;*

The FO&#8217;s report, &#8216;irresponsible&#8217; statements, and safeguarding the country&#8217;s interests amid the situation emerged involving Raymond Davis are the key areas to be discussed in the Standing Committee session.

&#8220;Qureshi&#8217;s absence from the federal cabinet has left the government with no worthwhile minister of his caliber,&#8221; the panel chairman Saleem Saifullah Khan said.

Lauding the ex-foreign minister&#8217;s relentless contribution on external front, he said President Zardari and PM Gilani maintained the incapable and corrupt ministers instead of expelling them. *&#8220;Qureshi was alone in PM Gilani&#8217;s team, who not only proved to be free of charges but also emerged to be the man of honest and upright character in discharging his assignments.&#8221;*

The ex-foreign minister, he said, adopted a principled position on changing his portfolio as well as on Raymond Davis case. *&#8220;His preference to quit instead of accepting another portfolio has brought another credit for him.&#8221;*

No foreigner, he said, could be permitted to take the law in his hand and kill innocent people. &#8220;*Although we have relations with the United States yet the life of our citizen is as equal as of an American.&#8221;* 

Saleem Saifullah had all-out sympathies with Qureshi. &#8220;The PPP bosses have played a final stroke to purge the cabinet of those carrying reputation.&#8221; Zardari and Gilani, he said, should have removed the ministers who are carrying various charges rather letting the men like former foreign minister to go. &#8220;I think Hina Rabbani is given the portfolio of State Minister (foreign affairs) just to fulfill a formality on papers. &#8220;External affairs, he said, is a sensitive subject and a key area for any country to protect national interests globally.&#8221;

*To a query, he said a diplomatic immunity to Davis would lead nothing but a source to encourage him and other foreigners to kill more people. &#8220;We have also taken in consideration other aspects as not only two people were killed but widow of one of them also committed suicide.&#8221;*

The PML Like-Minded chief said he would convene the Standing Committee meeting within days after the FO hands over a report explaining official position as to whether immunity can be given, under what circumstances and as to whether the government is paving way for such a move.

Saifullah regretted the FO has an extremely slow process to move forward. &#8220;I asked its authorities to submit a report but they have yet to come up with a response despite passage of one week,&#8221; he elaborates.

He expressed his dismay over the recent conflicting and controversial statements on part of the PPP and its government functionaries on Davis case. &#8220;Fauzia Wahab thinks after she speaks, irrespective of whether her words prove to be destructive for the country.&#8221;

The National Assembly&#8217;s Committee (on foreign affairs) is headed by ANP President Asfandyar Wali as he postponed for more than twice its meetings. Asfandyar Wali is expected to follow the government line since his party is in amalgamation with the PPP in Centre and three provinces, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan and Sindh.

Senate body to support Qureshi on Davis immunity row

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## Omar1984

*Davis is killer, Lahore police tell judge*

LAHORE: The investigation wing of the Lytton Road police and prosecution officials submitted on Tuesday a double-murder challan (preliminary police report) against US national Raymond Davis to the court of Lahore District and Sessions Judge (DSJ) Abdul Waheed Khan.

After consulting some additional district and sessions judges, the DSJ marked the case to the court of ADSJ Mohammad Youssuf Aujla.

*An official said police had formally charged Davis under Section 302, declaring him as killer of Faizan and Faheem at Qartaba Chowk in Mozang on Jan 27.*

He said the home department had issued a notification to conduct the trial in jail because of security concerns.

According to the police report, Lytton Road SHO Atif Meraj recovered a belt, a pistol pouch, a handbag, two purses, five cellphones, Pakistani and foreign currency and two National Identity Cards from the murdered youths.

*Davis, according to witnesses, first opened fire on Faizan and Fahim from his car and then shot them from the back while they were fleeing.*

&#8220;The police, however, captured Davis while he was trying to flee in his car and recovered a 9mm pistol with five magazines, 75 bullets, a passport, a long-range wireless set, a global positioning system (GPS) with charger, two cellphones, a telescope, infrared headlight, camera, torch, survival kit, memory cards, packed &#8216;niswar&#8217;, local and US currency, ATM cards, a PIA ticket, blank cheques etc.&#8221;

Davis claimed during investigation that the men wanted to rob him and he had killed them in self-defence. After killing Faizan and Fahim, Davis also photographed them and called the US consulate to send someone to help him.

Responding to the phone call, a vehicle (Land Cruiser) carrying some persons reached the spot and crushed to death another man, Ibadur Rehman.

*According to the challan, Davis&#8217;s claim of having acted in self-defence couldn&#8217;t be proved because he had killed the men while they were running away and they had no bullet loaded in their pistol.*

*&#8220;Not a single eyewitness saw the murdered youths trying to loot the accused at gunpoint,&#8221; it said, adding that the accused didn&#8217;t cooperate with the investigators and refused to give any statement on the instructions of the US consulate in Lahore.*

&#8220;Davis has been proved to be guilty and be tried under the murder charges,&#8221; the investigators said.


Davis is killer, Lahore police tell judge | newspaper | DAWN.COM


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## Solomon2

Omar1984 said:


> I wonder what would be the reaction of the American public if a Pakistani "diplomat" shot two white Americans in broad day light and then claimed he killed those white Americans in self defence.


Premediated murder as some twisted form of revenge for the incident with Davis? We'd be pretty angry. Then I guess we'd kick out not just the offending diplomat but a sizable portion of Pakistan's U.S. and U.N. delegations - for given the Davis incident and the GoP's response it would be difficult to believe any protest by the GoP that the offender acted alone, rather than with authorization from above. 

(What these people would do the rest of their lives I don't know. If Pakistan attempted to send them to another country that country might feel insulted at best, threatened at worst. They either would not be accepted or if allowed in would be avoided by their counterparts and thus could never function effectively. So their careers would probably be ruined.) 

After expulsion the police and FBI would start investigating which Pakistanis initiated and authorized such a plot, pursuant to seeking international warrants for their arrest. That would mean they could never again travel outside of Pakistan with safety.


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## RabzonKhan

*Raymond Davis case: Bitter truths*


By Raza Rumi
Published in The Express Tribune, February 16th, 2011.


The case of Raymond Davis is getting intensely intriguing. Sad that a legal issue has assumed mammoth political significance. It is now a battle between Pakistans elected and unelected institutions. Facts have been lost in the rhetoric and fiction prevails, regurgitating the narratives that we have weaved about ourselves and the rest of the world. *Hate the US and blame it for all our weaknesses, even if it entails violating our international obligations.*

*It is time to ask how an operative can be in Pakistan for almost three years without clarity about his status. If there were doubts about Davis, why didnt our brave security agencies express these concerns before he killed someone? Why was he not declared persona non grata for the nefarious activities he is now being accused of? If he did not enjoy diplomatic status, why didnt the Foreign Office say so on day one? Why the deliberate ambiguity, fuelled by an orchestrated media frenzy?*

*This saga illustrates typical Pakistani emotionalism. If the sending state declares someone a diplomat and the receiving state accepts him, thats the end of the matter. Those who rant that Davis visa mentions Official Business and hes a mere contractor need to get their facts right. Pakistans diplomatic visa does not carry the words Diplomatic Visa imprinted on it. When Pakistani authorities endorse a visa saying Official Business on a diplomatic passport, they recognise that the person is travelling to our country under diplomatic immunity. If he stays here on assignment, he gets a diplomatic ID card with his immunity status printed on its back.*

*It is also well-known that our Foreign Office maintains a list of people who have been extended diplomatic immunity. Article 31 of the 1961 Vienna Convention clearly covers technical and administrative staff, as pointed out by lawyer Asad Jamal in his recent analysis (see The Friday Times, February 11-17). When someone covered by immunity invokes it after committing a crime, the proper procedure is for the police to check that list. It is a matter of a couple of hours at best. There shouldnt have been confusion about immunity, but motivated officials simply passed the buck. No one wanted to appear to be supporting an American murderer.*

In the recently leaked video of Davis conversation with the police (why was it videotaped, if not for political mileage), Davis is repeatedly asking for his passport, which could have answered a few questions. But who cares about facts? The popular reaction is that an evil American shot innocent Pakistanis. We are unclear about his diplomatic status because he was a contractor. Once again, I was amused to read stories about how that American stooge, our ambassador in Washington, gave Davis a visa to conduct secret operations in Pakistan. There seems to be no shortage of black humour in our dear homeland.

*We have missed the chance to demonstrate that we are a rule-based state, compliant with international law. Our government could have easily acknowledged the principle of immunity, and demanded that the US waive it (as happened in the famous case of a Georgian diplomat in US) or that Davis be tried in his own country (as happened in case of a Russian diplomat in Canada). *Our third legal option was to do what Britain did with Libya: Break off diplomatic relations when Libya refused to waive immunity for a diplomat who killed a British policewoman. Instead, we created an emotional argument and will end up doing many intellectual and legal calisthenics before setting the man free under pressure.

*Emotionalism reigns supreme. We hate America but not American aid or arms. We have a former foreign minister scoring brownie points for his honourable defiance of the US, a foreign secretary who is giving unclear signals and a media that wants Davis to be hanged tomorrow, preferably without a trial. The bitter truth is that the merits of Davis case are marginal to the current hype in Pakistan.*

The writer is consulting editor, The Friday Times

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## Omar1984

Solomon2 said:


> Premediated murder as some twisted form of revenge for the incident with Davis? We'd be pretty angry. Then I guess we'd kick out not just the offending diplomat but a sizable portion of Pakistan's U.S. and U.N. delegations - for given the Davis incident and the GoP's response it would be difficult to believe any protest by the GoP that the offender acted alone, rather than with authorization from above.
> 
> (What these people would do the rest of their lives I don't know. If Pakistan attempted to send them to another country that country might feel insulted at best, threatened at worst. They either would not be accepted or if allowed in would be avoided by their counterparts and thus could never function effectively. So their careers would probably be ruined.)
> 
> After expulsion the police and FBI would start investigating which Pakistanis initiated and authorized such a plot, pursuant to seeking international warrants for their arrest. That would mean they could never again travel outside of Pakistan with safety.


 
*Solomon you know as much as I do if the situation was reversed and a Pakistani "diplomat" did the same in the United States as Raymond Davis did in Pakistan, the Pakistani "diplomat" would be labelled a terrorist within 5 minutes in all U.S. news channel and news paper, and U.S. would never hand over the Pakistani "diplomat" to the Pakistan government neither any request from the Pakistani government would be taken seriously.*

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## Omar1984

*Raymond Davis and the Vienna Conventions*

Shah Mahmood Qureshi&#8217;s recent statement that Raymond Davis does not enjoy diplomatic immunity may have surprised some of those &#8216;experts&#8217; who have been quoting the Vienna Convention to tell us that there was simply option for Pakistan but to &#8216;hand over&#8217; Davis to the United States. 

His statement also suggests that these so-called experts might have got it wrong after all, particularly because there are in fact two separate Vienna Conventions that deal with the issue. While these conventions provide certain privileges and immunities, at the same time, they also place certain responsibilities on the way diplomatic and consular staff are expected to conduct themselves in their host countries. For some reason, the focus of the entire debate on this issue has been only on the immunities and privileges and we seem to have been overlooking the other side of the coin.

As a student of international law I am aware that the spirit in which the Vienna Conventions were framed and adopted was to promote friendly relations between member states in addition to providing a code of conduct for the members of consular and diplomatic staff to act in a responsible manner. 

*It would be ludicrous to suggest that the Vienna Convention was aimed only at granting some sort of a license to diplomats or consular staff to commit crimes in their host countries.*

This spirit has been quite explicitly articulated in the preamble of the Vienna Convention 1961, and I quote: &#8220;the purpose of such privileges and immunities is not to benefit individuals but to ensure the efficient performance of the functions of diplomatic missions as representing States.&#8221; 

*It also states that the Convention is aimed at contributing towards &#8220;development of friendly relations among nations.&#8221; This view is further substantiated through Article 41, which states that &#8220;it is the duty of all persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State.&#8221;*

*So, my question would be that if a diplomat or consular officer is found carrying weapons (in violation of the host country&#8217;s law) would it not bring him or her in breach of Article 41 of the Vienna Convention 1961? This article clearly requires diplomats to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving state, and it would be contrary to the spirit of the Vienna Conventions to seek immunity for a consular officer who not only carries lethal weapons but will also use them to kill citizens of the host state.* 

*Article 42 places certain additional conditions on the diplomats when it states that &#8220;a diplomatic agent shall not engage in any professional or commercial activity.&#8221; In other words a diplomat or consular officer is mandated only to carry out his &#8220;official duties as a diplomat.&#8221; These duties are defined in Article 3 of the same Convention as being aimed at &#8220;promoting friendly relations&#8221;. No reasonable diplomat or consular officer can argue that he needs to carry weapons or kill citizens of the host state to carry out his diplomatic or consular duties. Therefore, any such activity that requires him to do this, would certainly go beyond his agreed mandate and consequently bring him breach of Article 42 as well.*

We must also recognize the distinction between a &#8220;Diplomat&#8221; and a &#8220;Consular Officer&#8221; as there are two separate Vienna Conventions that deal with each category. (a) The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 and the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963. *In simple terms, the staff associated with an Embassy of a state situated in a capital of the host country would be referred to as a &#8220;Diplomat&#8221; under the 1961 Convention, whereas those associated with the Consulate Generals in different cities of the same state would be &#8220;Consular Officers&#8221;, covered under the 1963 Convention. *

*This brings us to the main and perhaps the most relevant question in this issue. Does a &#8220;consular officer&#8221; associated with a Consulate General of a state situated a city like Lahore (or Karachi) enjoy &#8220;Diplomatic&#8221; immunity? The answer would have to be &#8216;No&#8217;, because such officers would fall under the scope of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963. Article 41 of this Convention does not offer immunity on &#8220;grave offences&#8221;.* 

It states clearly that: *&#8220;Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.&#8221; I don&#8217;t think anyone can dispute that a double murder is perhaps the most gravest of all crimes.* 

However, despite all that, some observers argue that the matter may have already reached a point, which is beyond mere legal technicalities, as there is considerable public outrage surrounding the Lahore incident and any unpopular decision by the government may spell trouble for its own survival. 

*Ordinary Pakistanis see Davis as someone who has not only breached local laws but has committed the gravest of all crimes by shooting two Pakistanis in broad daylight.* It now remains to be seen whether Davis will end up facing trial in Pakistan, or would the government ultimately succumb to mounting US pressure. 

All of this has happened at a volatile time when the Middle East is already facing a wave of popular uprisings that have forced US-backed governments to collapse. At this juncture foreign minister&#8217;s decision to relinquish his ministerial position is quite interesting. Apparently he seems to have chosen to side with public sentiment on the issue but the question is why has he chosen to make such statements only after it became clear to him that he is not being offered the Foreign Ministry in the cabinet re-shuffle? The response by the new Minister for Information, Dr Firdous Ashiq, has already suggested that there might be more than what meets the eye, but I think it might not be a good idea to play politics on such a sensitive issue which seems to be putting a lot of strain on Pakistan-US relations already. 

The writer is noted media personality, Executive Director of the World Forum, and a former Ambassador. He can be contacted on JavedMalik78@yahoo.co

Raymond Davis and the Vienna Conventions

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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> Don't you think the US should waive immunity in the interest of justice and mutual trust?


No. 



> ...It would be a good face saving compromise for both sides.


What _exactly_ would be "good" about it?


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## Solomon2

Omar1984 said:


> Solomon you know as much as I do if the situation was reversed -


You mean, if the Davis incident had never occurred? I think we would have expelled such a diplomat within hours - before there could be a big media battle about it.

When a diplomat is accused of a crime the opprobrium for the deed properly rests with the nation that sent him, rather than the diplomat himself. That is why I'm thinking it may be best if Pakistan attempts to take its allegations against Davis to U.S. courts. If Davis is cleared in a fair trial U.S. honor will be restored. Unfortunately I doubt that Pakistan will care to do so, or if it does will not present enough evidence to convince a grand jury that a trial is warranted, so America's reputation will remain stained by Pakistan's vile press and irresponsible Foreign Office.


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## Awesome

The removal of Qureshi definitely removes all suspicion that this guy has no immunity and now they are going to falsify the documents. That's why suddenly the US embassy has been emboldened to say by Thursday it would definitely prove immunity in the Pakistani courts.

The public will not agree to it and you can bet this will erupt.

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## Awesome

Govt finalises strategy to give immunity to Davis



> ISLAMABAD: The federal government has finalised its strategy to grant diplomatic immunity to Raymond Davis, an American national currently under detention for alleged double murder in Lahore in broad daylight on January 27, it was learnt here on Tuesday.
> 
> &#8220;As word &#8216;official&#8217; is mentioned in the visa stamped on the passport held by Raymond Davis and when the court will question the federal government about the status of the American national, the Attorney General will appear before the court to certify on behalf of the federal government that Davis had reached Pakistan on official visa and he enjoys diplomatic immunity,&#8221; an official source told The News, requesting anonymity.
> 
> The source disclosed that various legal eagles are busy in consultations in the Ministry of Law to sort out this thorny issue so that if some important legal points are raised when the government submits a certificate of diplomatic immunity to Davis in the court, the legal experts can prove through arguments that diplomatic immunity was being granted to the American national without any pressure.
> 
> &#8220;The federal government is currently under immense pressure with regard to the Davis case. It is now being whispered in the Foreign Office that the case being in the court, now all responsibility is on the shoulders of the federal government, particularly the Ministry of Law,&#8221; said the source.
> 
> &#8220;It is widely believed now in the Foreign Office that only the Ministry of Law is competent now to comment on the case and to formally announce the government&#8217;s decision about grant of immunity to Davis or otherwise,&#8221; he added.
> 
> This correspondent made several attempts for comments of the Law Ministry but no response was received. One senior official, however, confirmed on condition of anonymity that consultations are currently going on in the ministry on the Davis case. But the official avoided further comments, saying the Law Ministry is making efforts to prepare a response to any court query keeping in view all the national and international laws. &#8220;Therefore, it is premature to say on which legal points the issue will be resolved,&#8221; he added.
> 
> Meanwhile, some Pakistan People&#8217;s Party (PPP) leaders close to the power corridors told The News requesting anonymity that the government is very nervous these days as it has never been in the past three years of its tenure. They said there is an immense pressure on the PPP from the US.


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## Awesome

Pakistan: Pakistan public anger rises over U.S. diplomat Raymond Davis - latimes.com

If the U.S. Embassy employee accused of murder in the deaths of two Pakistani men is granted diplomatic immunity, Pakistan may explode like Egypt and Tunisia, men on the street say.

Reporting from Lahore, Pakistan &#8212;
Inspired by the popular uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, Pakistani college student Gulraiz Iqbal is itching for a reason to take his disdain for President Asif Ali Zardari's government to the streets.

If Pakistani authorities grant diplomatic immunity and release Raymond Davis, the U.S. Embassy employee accused of murder in the deaths of two Pakistani men in Lahore, Iqbal will have the cause he craves.

"We would organize students in Lahore and across the country, and create a movement that would turn into a revolution," said Iqbal, 22, a small, wiry man who is a leader of the Lahore student wing of an opposition party, Movement for Justice. "We're inspired by the examples of Tunisia and Egypt because their leaders were agents for the U.S. We have the same situation here."

Iqbal's fist-shaking can't be brushed aside, if only because his outrage over the Davis case is shared by much of the rest of the country. In a nation fractured along ethnic, sectarian and political fault lines, the case has congealed Pakistani society into a single, cohesive front against what many perceive to be an ideal illustration of American recklessness.

On Jan. 27, Davis, 36, fatally shot two men who he said were trying to rob him at gunpoint. Davis was arrested and told officials he acted in self-defense. But few in Pakistan believe his version of events and many want him tried on murder charges, or worse.

Photos of protesters hoisting banners that read "Hang Raymond Davis!" appear every few days in Pakistani newspapers. Islamist parties capable of mobilizing thousands of demonstrators have vowed to rally against the government if Davis is freed.

The tumult sweeping through the Middle East could give demonstrators in Pakistan momentum that Zardari and his government would struggle to withstand, analysts say.

Zardari's government has reeled from one crisis to the next since the ouster of military ruler Pervez Musharraf in 2008. The Supreme Court has repeatedly sought Zardari's prosecution on corruption charges leveled in Switzerland. Many Pakistanis harshly criticized his administration for failing to provide relief quickly enough to millions left homeless by last summer's epic floods. The country's economy continues to teeter on the brink of collapse.

If Davis is released without a trial, experts say, it could be the last straw. The U.S. is expected to argue its case for Davis' immunity and release at a hearing Thursday at the Lahore High Court.

"The problem is that the government is so weak," says Talat Masood, a security analyst and retired Pakistani general. "The government thinks that because of what's happening in Egypt, the people need only an excuse, and this might be the one."

As a result, the government has been reluctant to make a decision regarding diplomatic immunity for Davis.

Washington wants Islamabad to declare that Davis is shielded from prosecution by immunity granted by the Vienna Convention to all diplomats and embassy "technical and administrative staff." U.S. officials have described Davis, a former U.S. Special Forces soldier, as an official with the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, but they have declined to state what his job is.

Washington remains mindful of Pakistan's important role in an eventual resolution of the war in Afghanistan and in maintaining pressure on Al Qaeda and Taliban strongholds in the country's volatile northwest. Pakistan desperately needs the steady stream of financial aid that the U.S. provides, but it cannot afford to allow the Davis affair to become a trigger for national unrest.

"The question is, when both countries have so much to lose, which one will stand down?" said Zafar Hilaly, a former Pakistani ambassador to the U.S.

During a news conference Tuesday in Washington, President Obama called for Pakistan to respect diplomatic immunity for Davis. Arriving in Lahore late Tuesday, Sen. John F. Kerry said the U.S. deeply regretted the deaths of the two Pakistani men and promised a Justice Department investigation of Davis' actions.

"We cannot allow one incident to break apart a much stronger bond that deals with millions of people in Pakistan, for whom we want to try to help build energy projects, new jobs, decent homes, education and healthcare," Kerry told reporters in Lahore.

Punjab provincial police officials have called the shooting a "clear-cut case of murder." According to the police, Davis says he had stopped his car at a red light when two men pulled up on a motorcycle. When one of the men pulled out a pistol and aimed it at the American, he fired at them through the windshield in self-defense, Davis told police.

Witnesses say Davis then got out of his car and snapped photos of the men before driving away. He was pulled over by police minutes later and arrested.

Police continue to seek the driver of an SUV from the U.S. Consulate in Lahore, who rushed to the scene of the shooting after Davis called him. Police say that driver drove the wrong way down a Lahore street and struck and killed another person on a motorcycle. Pakistani police say the Lahore consulate has refused to turn over the driver to authorities.

The men on the motorcycle, Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad, were carrying stolen cellphones and handguns, police said. But Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tareen says Davis' claim of self-defense doesn't hold up because Haider was shot in the back as he tried to flee. Tareen also said that though police found ammunition in the magazine of one man's gun, they found no cartridge in its chamber.

At least one of the witnesses, a traffic police officer, has told investigators he saw one of the Pakistani men pull out a pistol moments before Davis began firing, according to Punjab police sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case. Also, both men were known to police as members of a robbery gang, the sources said.

Fauzia Wahab, a lawmaker and spokeswoman for the country's ruling party, the Pakistan People's Party, said Monday that she agreed that Davis is entitled to diplomatic immunity, though she emphasized that she was not speaking for the government.

Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, ousted from his post last week as a result of a Cabinet reshuffle, told the Pakistani journalists that Davis was not protected by diplomatic immunity because he had not been certified as a diplomat by the Foreign Ministry.

Along the businesses lining the intersection where the shooting occurred, Pakistanis are bracing for Davis' release and for the eruption of anger expected to spill out into the streets afterward.

"I believe Davis will be released, because it's impossible for Pakistan to withstand pressure from the U.S.," said Irfan Hayat, whose rental car office is just yards from the site of the shooting. "But when that happens, the reaction will be huge. Every Pakistani will come into the streets."

In the working class Lahore neighborhood where Faizan Haider lived, banners draped over dangling power lines proclaim, "Hang the American murderer!" and "Is Pakistani blood so cheap?" In Haider's house, relatives say they are preparing to mount a protest that Islamabad cannot ignore.

"The nation is with us in this cause," said Mukhtar Ahmed, 50, Haider's cousin. "People are saying it will be like Egypt, but it will be beyond that. Even if the government isn't with us, the people are."


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> You mean, if the Davis incident had never occurred? I think we would have expelled such a diplomat within hours - before there could be a big media battle about it.
> 
> When a diplomat is accused of a crime the opprobrium for the deed properly rests with the nation that sent him, rather than the diplomat himself. That is why I'm thinking it may be best if Pakistan attempts to take its allegations against Davis to U.S. courts.



Davis is not a simple American individual that committed a double murder in Pakistan. He is being accused of being a trained operative carrying out a mission on the behest of America the state. How can we give him to America the state and expect justice.

This can be America's exit strategy from the WoT... If Raymond Davis leaves Pakistan so will every American official. The war will be over.

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## Hyde

*Davis is &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, declares FO*

Updated at: 0036 PST, Wednesday, February 16, 2011
ISLAMABAD: A letter written to Law Ministry from Foreign Office, declared the US double murderer of two Pakistani citizens, Raymond Davis, &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, Geo News reported late Tuesday.

According to letter, US citizen Raymond Davis was designated in Pakistan at US consulate in Lahore as &#8216;a diplomat&#8217; and all the same, he enjoys &#8216;diplomatic immunity&#8217; according to Vienna Convention.

A few minutes ago, US President Obama and Senator Kerry demanded Pakistan to acknowledge Davis as a diplomat and urged for his early release.

Davis is a diplomat, declares FO - GEO.tv


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## ajtr

Zaki said:


> *Davis is &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, declares FO*
> 
> Updated at: 0036 PST, Wednesday, February 16, 2011
> ISLAMABAD: A letter written to Law Ministry from Foreign Office, declared the US double murderer of two Pakistani citizens, Raymond Davis, &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, Geo News reported late Tuesday.
> 
> According to letter, US citizen Raymond Davis was designated in Pakistan at US consulate in Lahore as &#8216;a diplomat&#8217; and all the same, he enjoys &#8216;diplomatic immunity&#8217; according to Vienna Convention.
> 
> A few minutes ago, US President Obama and Senator Kerry demanded Pakistan to acknowledge Davis as a diplomat and urged for his early release.
> 
> Davis is &#8216;a diplomat&#8217;, declares FO - GEO.tv


 Gayee bhains paani main.FO ne letter de kar saare kiye karaye par paani fer diya.

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> The public will not agree to it and you can bet this will erupt.


 


> Meanwhile, some Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) leaders close to the power corridors told The News requesting anonymity that the government is very nervous these days as it has never been in the past three years of its tenure. They said there is an immense pressure on the PPP from the US.



What makes you think that this "nervousness" and pressure from the street isn't something the U.S. wants? I want to see the GoP and its officials take responsibility for their own deeds and explain to their own people Pakistan's obligations. and benefits I do not WANT to make their job any easier by an ill-considered compromise. As Raza Rumi wrote in the article Rabzon quoted, Pakistanis "missed the chance to demonstrate that we are a rule-based state, compliant with international law." If the current pressure from the U.S. and the street compels Pakistani officials to explain themselves fully - to set Pakistan back on the path of political maturity - then why would I have an objection to it?



Asim Aquil said:


> Davis is not a simple American individual that committed a double murder in Pakistan. He is being accused of being a trained operative carrying out a mission on the behest of America the state. How can we give him to America the state and expect justice.


1) The police don't believe he committed murder. Provincial officials are merely claiming this as a matter of political convenience. That alone indicates Davis can't expect justice in Pakistan.

2) He has diplomatic immunity so kick Davis out. Educate your populace (it doesn't matter if Davis was a "trained operative") about what diplomatic immunity means - including the benefits Pakistan accrues from it. Apologize and lose face if necessary with the Pakistani people. Go through U.S. courts and see what happens. 



> This can be America's exit strategy from the WoT... If Raymond Davis leaves Pakistan so will every American official. The war will be over.


So the terrorists who have been on the ropes will be saved because morally corrupt Pakistani officials value their personal power and control over the populace more than responsible conduct? So the Taliban can grow back and Al Qaeda strike America once more? Why would America be interested in such an "exit strategy"?


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## Hyde

ajtr said:


> Gayee bhains paani main.FO ne letter de kar saare kiye karaye par paani fer diya.


 
aap ko PPP bohat achi lagti hai naa - dekh lo us ke kartoot

usne khud accept kiya ke woh bas Councillors hai Lahore Embassy main aur ab dekho kya kya ho raha hai


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## ajtr

Zaki said:


> aap ko PPP bohat achi lagti hai naa - dekh lo us ke kartoot
> 
> usne khud accept kiya ke woh bas Councillors hai Lahore Embassy main aur ab dekho kya kya ho raha hai


PPP aur MQM par bahas un par dedicated threads main karenge..nahi to bekar main yeh thread barbaad ho jayega.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

^^^^^^^ I thought your flags were India's? What happenned?


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## RescueRanger

DV RULES said:


> I supposed you are wise but i was wrong.
> There is no direct insult or judgment of your alleged nationalism.
> 
> Go & learn how to make civilized conversation & how to react diplomatically.
> Try to make difference in judgment & suppositions.
> If you are so afraid what the hell you here, I damn care who you are, your honesty.* MY FOOT.*
> & who you areanswering me in this tone, are you crazy? Get a long breath and think again.
> 
> Next time be educated & be civilized while answering somebody& don&#8217;t lose respect in counter reply.
> Everybody participate here as honest & true Pakistani but not like you who has superiority complex. keep your complex with yourself.
> 
> If I have flag then I have my solid decision and views over issue & I am not afraid while standing on my words.
> 
> We can force Uncle Sam to be loose its position but
> Nothing could be change while we have minds like you, whose decisions & arguments like pendulum.


 
Please spare me the sanctimonious lecture. You are more then welcome to your opinion and enjoy your keyboard Jihad my fellow OVERSEAS Pakistani.



> Go & learn how to make civilized conversation & how to react diplomatically.



Right... Let me just quote somthing you said in your post to me


> MY FOOT.


 Very civil of you...



> If you are so afraid what the hell you here, I damn care who you are, your honesty


Tell me this, how many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been in or near an explosion? How many times have you entered a collapsed structure that could very well entomb you, but you carry on regardless to help your fellow PAKISTANI?

Do you know why i am scared? My kids are too young. I could very well die tomorrow and not see them again, since i was too an orphan at a very young age i know the pain of growing up without your father... It haunts me, that and the fact i have dealt with people on the worst day of their life. These things i have seen, they haunt me... And will continue to do so till my dying days. 



> Everybody participate here as honest & true Pakistani but not like you who has superiority complex


.
au contraire, ask anyone around here i am a very humble man... You don't know anything about me, so please keep these petty personal attacks to yourself. 



> If I have flag then I have my solid decision and views over issue & I am not afraid while standing on my words.


My flag under my avatar, it is where i was born, bred, live and die. Actions speak louder than words, if you love your country so then come join the Rescue 1122 volunteer program or the many volunteer first responder services opening up around the country...



> Next time be educated & be civilized while answering somebody& dont lose respect in counter reply


Please... Can you quote where i insulted you? Clearly you cannot because you are on a high horse, kindly dismount it and end your Keyboard Jihad. If you care so much about Pakistan, come take a month off and volunteer in Pakistan, turn those words you praise so much into ACTION.



> alleged nationalism


Says the guy sitting in Russia. Sure thing my friend. Sure thing.

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## Omar1984

*In Pakistan, rumbles of a revolution over Raymond Davis*

If the U.S. Embassy employee accused of murder in the deaths of two Pakistani men is granted diplomatic immunity, Pakistan may explode like Egypt and Tunisia, men on the street say.


By Alex Rodriguez, Los Angeles Times


Reporting from Lahore, Pakistan &#8212; 

Inspired by the popular uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, Pakistani college student Gulraiz Iqbal is itching for a reason to take his disdain for President Asif Ali Zardari's government to the streets.

If Pakistani authorities grant diplomatic immunity and release Raymond Davis, the U.S. Embassy employee accused of murder in the deaths of two Pakistani men in Lahore, Iqbal will have the cause he craves.

"We would organize students in Lahore and across the country, and create a movement that would turn into a revolution," said Iqbal, 22, a small, wiry man who is a leader of the Lahore student wing of an opposition party, Movement for Justice. "We're inspired by the examples of Tunisia and Egypt because their leaders were agents for the U.S. We have the same situation here."

Iqbal's fist-shaking can't be brushed aside, if only because his outrage over the Davis case is shared by much of the rest of the country. In a nation fractured along ethnic, sectarian and political fault lines, the case has congealed Pakistani society into a single, cohesive front against what many perceive to be an ideal illustration of American recklessness.

On Jan. 27, Davis, 36, fatally shot two men who he said were trying to rob him at gunpoint. Davis was arrested and told officials he acted in self-defense. But few in Pakistan believe his version of events and many want him tried on murder charges, or worse.

Photos of protesters hoisting banners that read "Hang Raymond Davis!" appear every few days in Pakistani newspapers. Islamist parties capable of mobilizing thousands of demonstrators have vowed to rally against the government if Davis is freed.

The tumult sweeping through the Middle East could give demonstrators in Pakistan momentum that Zardari and his government would struggle to withstand, analysts say.

Zardari's government has reeled from one crisis to the next since the ouster of military ruler Pervez Musharraf in 2008. The Supreme Court has repeatedly sought Zardari's prosecution on corruption charges leveled in Switzerland. Many Pakistanis harshly criticized his administration for failing to provide relief quickly enough to millions left homeless by last summer's epic floods. The country's economy continues to teeter on the brink of collapse.

If Davis is released without a trial, experts say, it could be the last straw. The U.S. is expected to argue its case for Davis' immunity and release at a hearing Thursday at the Lahore High Court.

*"The problem is that the government is so weak," says Talat Masood, a security analyst and retired Pakistani general. "The government thinks that because of what's happening in Egypt, the people need only an excuse, and this might be the one."*

As a result, the government has been reluctant to make a decision regarding diplomatic immunity for Davis.

Washington wants Islamabad to declare that Davis is shielded from prosecution by immunity granted by the Vienna Convention to all diplomats and embassy "technical and administrative staff." U.S. officials have described Davis, a former U.S. Special Forces soldier, as an official with the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, but they have declined to state what his job is.

Washington remains mindful of Pakistan's important role in an eventual resolution of the war in Afghanistan and in maintaining pressure on Al Qaeda and Taliban strongholds in the country's volatile northwest. Pakistan desperately needs the steady stream of financial aid that the U.S. provides, but it cannot afford to allow the Davis affair to become a trigger for national unrest.

"The question is, when both countries have so much to lose, which one will stand down?" said Zafar Hilaly, a former Pakistani ambassador to the U.S.

During a news conference Tuesday in Washington, President Obama called for Pakistan to respect diplomatic immunity for Davis. Arriving in Lahore late Tuesday, Sen. John F. Kerry said the U.S. deeply regretted the deaths of the two Pakistani men and promised a Justice Department investigation of Davis' actions.

"We cannot allow one incident to break apart a much stronger bond that deals with millions of people in Pakistan, for whom we want to try to help build energy projects, new jobs, decent homes, education and healthcare," Kerry told reporters in Lahore.

Punjab provincial police officials have called the shooting a "clear-cut case of murder." According to the police, Davis says he had stopped his car at a red light when two men pulled up on a motorcycle. When one of the men pulled out a pistol and aimed it at the American, he fired at them through the windshield in self-defense, Davis told police.

Witnesses say Davis then got out of his car and snapped photos of the men before driving away. He was pulled over by police minutes later and arrested.

Police continue to seek the driver of an SUV from the U.S. Consulate in Lahore, who rushed to the scene of the shooting after Davis called him. Police say that driver drove the wrong way down a Lahore street and struck and killed another person on a motorcycle. Pakistani police say the Lahore consulate has refused to turn over the driver to authorities.

The men on the motorcycle, Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad, were carrying stolen cellphones and handguns, police said. But Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tareen says Davis' claim of self-defense doesn't hold up because Haider was shot in the back as he tried to flee. Tareen also said that though police found ammunition in the magazine of one man's gun, they found no cartridge in its chamber.

At least one of the witnesses, a traffic police officer, has told investigators he saw one of the Pakistani men pull out a pistol moments before Davis began firing, according to Punjab police sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case. Also, both men were known to police as members of a robbery gang, the sources said.

Fauzia Wahab, a lawmaker and spokeswoman for the country's ruling party, the Pakistan People's Party, said Monday that she agreed that Davis is entitled to diplomatic immunity, though she emphasized that she was not speaking for the government.

Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, ousted from his post last week as a result of a Cabinet reshuffle, told the Pakistani journalists that Davis was not protected by diplomatic immunity because he had not been certified as a diplomat by the Foreign Ministry.

Along the businesses lining the intersection where the shooting occurred, Pakistanis are bracing for Davis' release and for the eruption of anger expected to spill out into the streets afterward.

"I believe Davis will be released, because it's impossible for Pakistan to withstand pressure from the U.S.," said Irfan Hayat, whose rental car office is just yards from the site of the shooting. *"But when that happens, the reaction will be huge. Every Pakistani will come into the streets."*

*In the working class Lahore neighborhood where Faizan Haider lived, banners draped over dangling power lines proclaim, "Hang the American murderer!" and "Is Pakistani blood so cheap?" In Haider's house, relatives say they are preparing to mount a protest that Islamabad cannot ignore.*

"The nation is with us in this cause," said Mukhtar Ahmed, 50, Haider's cousin. *"People are saying it will be like Egypt, but it will be beyond that. Even if the government isn't with us, the people are."*

alex.rodriguez@latimes.com

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times


Pakistan: Pakistan public anger rises over U.S. diplomat Raymond Davis - latimes.com

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## Omar1984

Here's an American news article on Raymond Davis. 

*Is American at Center of US-Pakistani Crisis a Diplomat or Spy?*

A telescope, photographs of sensitive defense installations and makeup for a facial disguise were found in the car of a former U.S. Special Forces officer after he fatally shot two young Pakistani men from his car, according to reports.

So was Raymond Davis, now at the center of an increasingly tense standoff between the U.S. and Pakistan, an ordinary diplomat assigned to the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad or, as some reports out of Pakistan suggest, a spy?

The shooting of the two Pakistanis, which occurred Jan. 27 when Davis was in Lahore, has inflamed anti-American sentiment in Pakistan. The widow of one of the two men, Shumaila Faheem, committed suicide on Sunday by taking poison, Al-Jazeera reported.

It's also led furious U.S. officials to threaten to withhold millions in aid if Davis is not released from detention based on his diplomatic immunity. A video was recently released that contains the audio recording of Davis' interrogation by police after the shooting.

"I just work as a consultant here," Davis says in the audio recording as several excitable male voices talk over him.

U.S. and Pakistani officials give conflicting versions of the confrontation involving Davis, who maintains he was acting in self-defense when he saw two men on motorcycles approach his car. At least one reportedly brandished a weapon.

Pakistani police said Davis fired five shots from his Glock from his car and then got out of the car to finish off the job by shooting both men two times.

U.S. officials said Davis fired only five shots and remained inside his vehicle, The Washington Post reported. 

A third Pakistani was run over and killed by a U.S. consulate vehicle that had come to assist Davis, police said.

Both official government accounts agree on at least one thing: The two dead Pakistani men were probably would-be robbers. That fact was based on a report from two Pakistani citizens who came forward after seeing TV coverage of the crime and recognizing the men as having robbed them previously.

But to further complicate the already murky story, The Washington Post quoted an anonymous Pakistani intelligence official who said the motorcyclists were intelligence agents. A spokesman for Pakistan's main intelligence agency denied that Tuesday.

Alternative websites and the blogosphere -- as well as Pakistani media -- are awash in speculation about whether Davis was a diplomat or a spy or mercenary. He was reportedly found to be in possession of pictures of Pakistani army installations.

*Counterpunch magazine investigated the company Davis said he works for in the U.S., Hyperion Protective Consultants. The company website gives an address in Orlando, Fla.

Counterpunch said it could find no evidence that Hyperion is a real company.*

*"First, there is not and never has been any such company located at the 5100 North Lane address," the site reported. "It is only an empty storefront, with empty shelves along one wall and an empty counter on the opposite wall, with just a lone used Coke cup sitting on it. A leasing agency sign is on the window."*

The U.S. has stepped up pressure on Pakistan by sending three members of the House of Representatives to meet with Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani. They told him that Congress was working on its budget and looking for areas to cut.

"It is imperative that they release him and there is certainly the possibility that there would be repercussions if they don't," Rep. John Kline, a Republican from Minnesota, told reporters on his return, Agence France-Presse reported.

In the meantime, anti-American protests have been on the rise since the killings, in a country that the U.S. hoped would become a bastion against radical Islam.


Is Raymond Davis, American at Center of US-Pakistani Crisis, a Diplomat or Spy?

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## monitor

Pakistan is contemplating to exchange Dr. afia with davis

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## zs4

Solomon2 said:


> If Davis is cleared in a fair trial U.S. honor will be restored.


 
Seriously, I don't think anything can restore the US's honor after its history in the last decade.


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## 53fd

_Pakistan is contemplating to exchange Dr. afia with davis_

Even if it is possible, I don't want Dr Afia back, she is of no value to Pakistan, and while she might not have killed anyone; I believe she is a hardline extremist who has the support of the extremist elements in Pakistan. She got married to KSM's cousin for heaven's sake. Besides sentimental value, Pakistan has no value in taking her back even if they get the chance. While I believe her case in the Manhattan court might not have been fair, she was definitely involved in some suspicious activities here, and both her and her sister are pretty shady characters. On the other hand, I honestly believe Raymond Davis is of some serious value to Pakistan, with the kind of secret information he possessed, along with his confidential job description and the blind insistence of the US authorities to release him unconditionally.

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## Dance

*Imran Khan warns rulers not to release Raymond Davis*

SIALKOT / ISLAMABAD: The chairman of the Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf (PTI), Imran Khan, on Tuesday said that his party will not allow rulers to hand over Raymond Davis, a US consular employee held over the killing of two Pakistanis, to the US.
Imran said this while talking to a delegation of PTI Sialkot which called on him at his Lahore office.

He said that his party will soon stage an anti-US long march in the country as a protest against the murders.
Imran also said that corrupt politicians will flee the country in a revolution that will shake the conscience of the masses soon, saying that the oppressed people of Pakistan are united over the real issues and desperate to avenge their frustration.

Those observed to be advocating foreign influence or pressure through the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other agencies have no contribution to make for the resolution of real issues like innocent killings through drone attacks, he said.
He termed the aid given to the government as a virus and said that it was not needed as it only helps the corrupt leaders who pocket it to stay in power while the masses are left to bear the burden of the war in the north.
Jamaat-e Islami issues warning over US prisoner

The Jamaat-e Islami (JI) accused the United States today of riding roughshod in the case of Raymond Davis and said it would hold protests if he is freed.
The party accused the United States of exerting &#8220;unprincipled and unlawful&#8221; pressure on Pakistan.

&#8220;Why is America hell bent on trampling on Pakistani law and its judicial system? We will forcefully protest if he is released without a court order,&#8221; Jamaat-e-Islami deputy chief Liaquat Baluch told Reuters.
Jamaat-e-Islami and other religious parties don&#8217;t win many votes in elections but are capable of organising large protests often seize on sensitive issues concerning the United States.
Earlier, the Pakistani Taliban and Jamaat-ud-Dawa also issued similar statements.

Imran Khan warns rulers not to release Raymond Davis &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## monitor

Kerry heads to Pakistan over US gunman
AFP, Islamabad 

US Senator John Kerry is to visit Pakistan late Tuesday on a mission to resolve a diplomatic row over an American official charged by police with murdering two Pakistanis.
The chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who helped spearhead a record $7.5 billion aid package for Pakistan, is well respected in the nuclear-armed country on the front line of the US-led war on Al-Qaeda.
He will meet government officials to reassure them of long-term US commitment to Pakistan, said a spokeswoman for the US embassy in Islamabad. "He's coming tonight to speak with government officials about the relationship and reaffirm support for the strategic relationship," said spokeswoman Courtney Beale. Pakistan's fragile ties with the United States have spun into crisis since Raymond Davis was taken into custody and confessed to shooting dead two men in self-defence on a busy street in the eastern city of Lahore on January 27.
Washington says he is a diplomat who should be released immediately in keeping with international law. Pakistan's weak and unpopular government is under enormous pressure to put Davis on trial in a country awash with anti-American sentiment.
The United States has postponed a round of high-level talks with Afghanistan and Pakistan following failed attempts to get Davis out and US lawmakers have threatened to cut payments to Pakistan unless he is freed. Kerry's visit aims to look for a resolution to the issue and to tone down the pressure on Pakistan's coalition government, one US official said on condition of anonymity. A court last Friday remanded Davis in custody until February 25 and police accused him of cold-blooded murder.
Lahore police said Tuesday they had submitted in court completed documents charging Davis with murder, a precursor to any formal indictment.


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## majesticpankaj

pakistan is walking on a very tight rope.... one side is people of pakistan and on the other side US backlash... On they choose one side they win morally on other side economically. Interesting to see.


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## MastanKhan

Mutee said:


> And also---THIS TERM IS ALSO VERY UN-ISLAMIC-----a muslim is never a proud whomsoever---you can be proud of someone else----but not of yourself---.
> Yes you are right mr mastsn khan and I was wrong proudness is a sift only for ALLAH only and not for a human being I agree with that part rest I can debate but will get soo long but for now I will admit I lost this argument


 
Hi,

My good man---when close to 30 years ago I came to the U S---I was also into winning arguments---in due time I learnt the race is not to the winner---. I didnot win over here nor do I seek to win otherwise---it a discussion and we share to make oursleves better---on the other hand my man---in my book----you are the winner---you have that much conscience in your heart and soul and the grace to admit and that takes you above the others.

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## Awesome

This government should resign after granting Davis the fake immunity papers.

Why did they have to kick off Qureshi from the Foreign Ministry position when he said that his ministry has determined that Davis does not have immunity.

The government ceases to be Pakistan's government when it does this.

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## Mujahid

Badmaashi


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## trident2010

*Obama asks Pakistan to release 'diplomat' Raymond Davis*


WASHINGTON: US President Barack Obama has asked Pakistan to treat Raymond Davis, who allegedly shot dead two men in Lahore, as a diplomat and release him.

While insisting that Pakistan must not prosecute Davis, Obama said he was concerned about the loss of Pakistani lives in the incident, the Dawn News reported on Wednesday.

"Obviously we're concerned about the loss of life," Obama said at a press conference.

However, he said Davis should be treated as a diplomat. "There's a broader principle at stake that I think we have to uphold."

In his first public remarks on a case that has strained US relations with Pakistan, Obama noted that the Vienna Convention for diplomatic immunity granted Davis some rights, the report said.

"We expect Pakistan to abide by the same convention," he said. "We're going to be continuing to work with the Pakistani government to get this person released."

Davis, an official with the US diplomatic mission in Lahore, has been in judicial custody pending investigation. He was arrested Jan 27 for killing two men at an intersection in Lahore, the capital of Punjab province. Davis claimed to have acted on self-defence, saying the two men were trying to rob him.

According to US media reports, Pakistani officials would present documents to the Lahore High Court to support Davis' claim for immunity.

The US state department said that it too would provide evidence in the Lahore High Court to show that Davis was entitled to diplomatic immunity.

State department spokesman Philip J Crowley said that the US government would file a petition for Davis' release Thursday and provide evidence of his diplomatic status.

Crowley, however, rejected a suggestion that the US had put its relationship with Pakistan at risk by insisting on Davis' release.

"We are building a strategic partnership with Pakistan. We are going to build this relationship for the long term," he said.

But the US also "respects its international obligations, and we expect other countries, including Pakistan, to do the same". Crowley rejected Pakistan's former foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi's claim that Davis was not a diplomat.

"He does have diplomatic immunity. Pakistan has an obligation to certify that under the Vienna Convention, and we continue to engage Pakistan to insist that he be released," said Crowley. 


Obama asks Pakistan to release 'diplomat' Raymond Davis - The Times of India


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## MastanKhan

ResCue Ranger,

Thank you for sharing your self with us.

This case has been handled very poorly by the provincial govt intentionally. It was a matter for the federal govt to decide and they should have been given the charge. In cases like these---even in the united states---the states want to keep aloof of the issues that are in the realm of the feds---. The states give in to the feds to let them handle their problems.

The provincial govt is only looking for its welfare----a very narrow and tunnel vision of the issue at hand----the federal govt has to keep in focus the broader picture, the current situation and the future consequences, foreign policy matters, foreign relations amongst other things.

Even if PPP loses its govt---what's the big deal---it is not the first time it has lost and it won't be the last time it would lose---the fools who brought them in, would be ready to bring them back at a later date.

I wish that all the character that so many of my pakistani colleagues are showing over here, transform them intop doing something really productive for the country---.

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## AstanoshKhan

*Call to All Pakistanis*

Dear sons/daughters of Pakistan,

As-Salam Alaikum. May you all find peace and heart in these tough times.

Please take note. Its not enough for us all to just sit aside and keep talking about the injustice. The puppet regime will fold and give in to the hypocritical stance of the US state, thats demanding that a criminal who killed 2 people on the street in public in broad daylight should be allowed to go scott free. We cannot allow this. If the govt cannot take a stand then army needs to take stand on this matter. Its pathetic how the media has started trying to justify and find excuses to allow US to get away with murder. This is do and die like just the Nuclear explosions of 1998. We cannot allow this. Its bigger than any government.

Also how pathetic that nobody can mobilize the people to come out on the street. The political idiots keep screaming revolution but cannot formulate a simple strategy to galvanize the people around this murder. Its so simple to mobilize people on this matter. This is bigger than a region, or language politics. Its about national stakes, and people will take heed to stand behind this issue. Its emotional and raw.

Our young people need to be molded to serve our country just like the Pakistan movement. We had a dynamic generation at time of creation of Pakistan, and then an inept generation followed that lost the mantle. The new young generation of today can do so much, They are of a nation of 180 million with a GDP larger than $464Billion and the potential for a whole lot more to trade and generate a healthy economy with a growing population wanting services/products. Lets not underestimate ourselves. We don&#8217;t need to beg a measly $7B to balance our books and forsake our dignity and honor in this trade. Its our right to manage our books ourselves. Nobody can dictate us, if we stand our ground. Why do we have un-educated people with fake degrees leading us a nation of 180 Million. We are too big and too important. Our nation ranks 27th in the world on GDP output. There are 200+ nations behind us who yield less power and might than us. In 2050, our nation will be waited upon by the nations of the world to sell products and services to us. We will have become the 5th largest consumer market by then, and can easily leave behind other nations behind. Population is not the problem, but an asset. We need to create services for our people that suits our needs and mobilizes our nation in the process. Is our nation&#8217;s wealth in creating and buying Apple IPods and IPhones or creating simple services that reach everyone. Simple services and reachability can generate wealth amongst our people. Take the cellphone culture that has sweeped our nation, that reaches every corner of our nation and all who can access it, get benefits from it whether educated/uneducated alike. In turn we created a revenue stream that made rich people out of the organizations that run it and gives our govt a medium to generate new taxes. With innovation and intellect we can turn a population of 180 million into a revenue powerhouse. I believe when God says that the Rizq of everyone is taken care of, I take that to mean that the possibilities are endless to feed and cloth everybody with the right policies and management. We will not go wanting by the Grace of God, if we are smart and work hard.

I also cry for my people. How shameful that a young daughter of my nation cries in pain that she cannot get justice when her husband is killed brutally by an american killer on our streets. She lives in my country but cries out and dies waiting. How can that not haunt you and pull you to action. Our history shows that a similar daughter called out from the shores of this nation, and Mohammed Bin Qasim was sent to provide justice. Are we not muslims that cannot provide justice to our own daughter in our homeland. Should a new Bin Qasim come from some other Muslim country to protect the chadar and izzat of our daughters in this country. We should be ashamed of ourselves as muslims. Our daughter did not trust us and the most she did to any of us was to commit suicide herself. She didn&#8217;t slap us, didn&#8217;t kick us, didn&#8217;t lash out us, and God forbid didn&#8217;t blow us up, she just chose to kill herself in protest. She was sane and of sound mind, and didn&#8217;t sell her soul. She has every right to demand justice from us. We are the descendents of Mohammed Bin Qasim that should have run to the rescue of our women where ever they are. We have disappointed our daughters and mothers and forsaken our heritage. Its not about one american killer anymore. Its about the death of our values.


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## Zeeshan360

The outcome will be very interesting 
Till then popcorn


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## AstanoshKhan

*New York Times: Davis a &#8216;Gun-For-Hire&#8217; and Not &#8216;Diplomat&#8217;*

There were lots of things to be afraid of in Baghdad in the bad old days &#8212; kidnapping, beheading, truck bombs &#8212; but nothing scared me more than trigger-happy Americans who careened out of the Green Zone, ready to shoot anybody and anything they saw as a real or imagined threat. Many were not soldiers, but private security guards under government contract who could, and did, kill with impunity &#8212; seemingly a law unto themselves.
On a recent visit to Pakistan, I found a country rife with conspiracy theories in which Americans are most often the villains. Blackwater plays a major role in Pakistani fears, no matter how it endeavors to change its name.

Some of these conspiracy theories are fantasies, but in the curious case of Raymond Davis, all of Pakistan&#8217;s nightmares about Americans have coalesced. And this flame is fanned by the American refusals to reveal what Davis was supposed to be doing.

The facts are few and mysterious. Davis, 36, an employee at the American consulate in Lahore, was driving through town with a fully loaded Glock automatic pistol. Two men approached his car on a motor bike, Davis says, with intent to rob him. They were found later to have stolen cellphones.

Davis opened up on them with his Glock through the windshield and killed them both. Then he apparently stepped out of his car and photographed their dead bodies before he sped away. He was later arrested.

The case was further complicated when another car sped out of the consulate, apparently coming to Davis&#8217; rescue, killed a Pakistani on a bicycle and sped back to the consulate. Neither the car nor the driver have been produced for the Pakistani authorities to question or inspect.

The Americans claim diplomatic immunity for Davis under Geneva Convention rules, and they are right by their lights. But Pakistani law says that Pakistan has a say in who has diplomatic immunity and who does not, and Pakistan deserves a full explanation.

There the matter stands, with the Pakistani courts threatening to try Davis for murder. The prosecution is saying that the shootings were not in self-defense. The Americans are hinting darkly that Pakistan will suffer dire consequences, canceled visits to Washington and a cut in financial aid.

In the meantime Pakistan is in a spasm of anti-American fury. The question of what an American &#8220;diplomat&#8221; was doing with a loaded gun, ready to use it, in the streets of a Pakistani city needs a lot more daylight than the Americans are providing.

*And, yes, it turns out that Davis was not a member of the U.S. Foreign Service, but a gun-for-hire private operative attached to the &#8220;technical and administrative&#8221; staff of the consulate, according to the U.S. Embassy.*

We all know that the business of private security has ballooned in recent years under very lucrative government contracts. The employees are often Americans, Britons and South Africans with military experience who can put their training to work for a great deal more money than usually awaits them in a fully civilian job. We also know that with U.S. forces stretched to the breaking point, these mercenaries, unhappily, play a major role in guarding American installations and embassies abroad that were once guarded only by U.S. Marines.

*But in case after case, these private operatives have used lethal &#8212; and not always justified &#8212; force, and it is not clear whose laws they are under. *Hamid Karzai tried to have them all fired from Afghanistan, but couldn&#8217;t do it, so important were these private guns to the American war effort.

The case of Raymond Davis plunged into even deeper mystery when the Pakistanis say they found maps on him of high security installations. The Pakistanis are suggesting he may have known the men whom he killed. The Americans, in the meantime, refuse any further explanation of his activities. The Lahore High Court won&#8217;t let the Pakistani government turn him over to the U.S. Embassy until they have ruled on his diplomatic status.

The Davis killings have resonance with a population already infuriated by the frequent drone attacks that often kill as many bystanders as militants. What is &#8220;collateral damage&#8221; to Americans is extra-judicial murder to many Pakistanis. The image of the careless American gunslinger is ingrained around the world through our greatest cultural export, the movies.

The best outcome would be for the Pakistanis to hand Davis over to the Americans under the terms of the Geneva Conventions, with the Americans giving a full explanation of what Davis was doing, and a worldwide crackdown on these private operatives who kill again and again with impunity or immunity.

And *America should stop threatening Pakistan with loss of aid. The aid serves U.S. interests, not just Pakistan&#8217;s*.

_A version of this op-ed appeared in print on February 15, 2011, in The International Herald Tribune._

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> The removal of Qureshi definitely removes all suspicion that this guy has no immunity and now they are going to falsify the documents. That's why suddenly the US embassy has been emboldened to say by Thursday it would definitely prove immunity in the Pakistani courts.
> 
> The public will not agree to it and you can bet this will erupt.



The OFFICIAL statement from the Federal government remains the VALID document, no matter what you speculate.

There will be no eruption. This hoopla by the self appointed guardians of national morality will die down sooner than froth.



Asim Aquil said:


> This government should resign after granting Davis the fake immunity papers.
> 
> Why did they have to kick off Qureshi from the Foreign Ministry position when he said that his ministry has determined that Davis does not have immunity.
> 
> The government ceases to be Pakistan's government when it does this.


 
If you fail to recognize your own democratically elected government as having legal authority, then please work to have a peaceful change of power. That would be called an "election" in most civilized countries.

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## Bang Galore

RescueRanger said:


> Says the guy sitting in Russia. Sure thing my friend. Sure thing.


 
Isn't it odd that people living outside a country (and i am referring to both Indians & Pakistanis) want their country of origin to take a hardline position which may end up inconveniencing millions but most of them have no qualms in continuing to live in the country/countries that they want a hardline position taken against. Would appreciate their positions more if they marked their protest by chucking everything they have in the "evil" country and turn up to join the protest in their country of origin. People who only want others to sacrifice/risk a lot while being unprepared to inconvenience themselves in the least should be willing to carry the charge of being duplicitous.

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## WAQAS119

*Raymond Davis does not have any diplomatic immunity , said Shah Mahmood Qasuri*

Now what? case was crystal clear from day one but now even foreign minister said that _clearly_! 
Press confrence is still going on! Lets see what more he has to say!

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## Devil Soul

Davis doesn&#8217;t enjoy blanket immunity US seeking: Qureshi
Updated at 1202 PST Wednesday, February 16, 2011
ISLAMABAD: Former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said the meeting with the US Senator John Kerry was arranged on the senator&#8217;s request. John Kerry was a friend of Pakistan, he added.

The former minister met today with the US Senator, who came here Tuesday and urged Pakistan to release Raymond Davis.

&#8216;Pakistan and America need each other&#8217;s help.&#8217; The issue of killing two Pakistani citizens in Lahore in broad daylight by a US embassy employee has become a matter of national respect.
Davis doesn


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## VCheng

Devil Soul said:


> Davis doesn&#8217;t enjoy blanket immunity US seeking: Qureshi
> Updated at 1202 PST Wednesday, February 16, 2011
> ISLAMABAD: *Former* foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said the meeting with the US Senator John Kerry was arranged on the senator&#8217;s request. John Kerry was a friend of Pakistan, he added.
> 
> The *former* minister met today with the US Senator, who came here Tuesday and urged Pakistan to release Raymond Davis.
> 
> &#8216;Pakistan and America need each other&#8217;s help.&#8217; The issue of killing two Pakistani citizens in Lahore in broad daylight by a US embassy employee has become a matter of national respect.
> Davis doesn



The key word is "former". He has no legal authority and his statement CANNOT be given OFFICIAL weight.


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## Devil Soul

AstanoshKhan said:


> *New York Times: Davis a &#8216;Gun-For-Hire&#8217; and Not &#8216;Diplomat&#8217;*
> 
> *The best outcome would be for the Pakistanis to hand Davis over to the Americans under the terms of the Geneva Conventions, with the Americans giving a full explanation of what Davis was doing, and a worldwide crackdown on these private operatives who kill again and again with impunity or immunity.*
> 
> _A version of this op-ed appeared in print on February 15, 2011, in The International Herald Tribune._


Well the same can be applied to americans with reference to Dr. Afia case .... if he & am sure he is not a diplomat


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## AstanoshKhan

VCheng said:


> The key word is "former". He has no legal authority and his statement CANNOT be given OFFICIAL weight.


 
... or may be Qureshi is on a hunt for revenge. Where was he all this time? Why he didn't come open in the media while he still had the official position?


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## Areesh

VCheng said:


> The key word is "former". He has no legal authority and his statement CANNOT be given OFFICIAL weight.


 
The keyword is that he was the Foreign minister of Pakistan and was the foreign minister even a few days ago. He was the foreign minister when this mercenary killed two people in "self defence". So what he says has weight in it. 

If this is the case then Fauzia Wahab is merely the leader of PPP and her statement can not be given any official weight too.

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## Areesh

AstanoshKhan said:


> ... or may be Qureshi is on a hunt for revenge. Where was he all this time? Why he didn't come open in the media while he still had the official position?


 
He is addressing the media in open. Check your TV for more details.

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## WAQAS119

VCheng said:


> The OFFICIAL statement from the Federal government remains the VALID document, no matter what you speculate.
> There will be no eruption. This hoopla by the self appointed *guardians of national morality* will die down sooner than froth.



What you call yourself? You call it hoopla by self appointed guardians of national interest having other people in mind I call it hoopla by self appointed guardians of national having you and your like in mind.
Ah! using such terms is a usual tactic employed when arguer is a short of arguments 'why not make other feel degraded'.


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## WAQAS119

VCheng said:


> The key word is "former". He has no legal authority and his statement CANNOT be given OFFICIAL weight.


 
*Hoopla!!!!!!!!!* Remember something?

BTW he was minister at the time the incident occurred and he was removed from his position due to his same stance. It is a simple murder case! why are you guys making such a noise out of it? *Guardians?*
Courts will decide what to do with that. Period


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## Devil Soul

*US guidelines support Pakistan case*
Updated at 1100 PST Wednesday, February 16, 2011
By Ansar Abbasi
ISLAMABAD: While Washington is putting tons of pressure on Islamabad to let Raymond Davis go under the cover of diplomatic immunity, the latest State Department guidelines on giving such immunity to diplomats of other countries within the US are eye-opening.

*&#8220;If the US guidelines were followed and had the Davis case happened in any place within the US, Davis would have been treated exactly the same way he is being treated in Pakistan,&#8221; an expert who knows immunity procedures in both the countries observed.*

*The State Department has only recently issued directions to law enforcement and judicial authorities &#8220;not to let any criminal go in the garb of diplomatic immunity without police investigation and court order&#8221;.*

*&#8220;It is the policy of the US Department of State with respect to alleged criminal violations by persons with immunity from criminal jurisdiction to encourage law enforcement authorities to pursue investigations vigorously, to prepare cases carefully and completely, and to document properly each incident so that charges may be pursued as far as possible in the US judicial system,&#8221; Diplomatic and Consular Immunity Guidance for Law Enforcement and Judicial Authorities of the State Department, released in September 2010, says.*

While Pakistan is being told that Davis had a licence to kill under the disputed immunity that he supposedly enjoys, the State Department guidelines say:* &#8220;It should be emphasized that even at its highest level, diplomatic immunity does not exempt diplomatic officers from the obligation of conforming with national and local laws and regulations. Diplomatic immunity is not intended to serve as a licence for persons to flout the law and purposely avoid liability for their actions.&#8221;*

These guidelines go on: *&#8220;The purpose of these privileges and immunities is not to benefit individuals but to ensure the efficient and effective performance of their official missions on behalf of their governments. This is a crucial point for law enforcement officers to understand in their dealings with foreign diplomatic and consular personnel. While police officers are obliged, under international customary and treaty law, to recognize the immunity of the envoy, they must not ignore or condone the commission of crimes.&#8221;*

While the US authorities and the murderer himself had admitted that he (Davis) was a member of Lahore Consulate, the US guidelines solve the riddle, for those who are still confused, by saying, *&#8220;There is a common misunderstanding that consular personnel have diplomatic status and are entitled to diplomatic immunity.&#8221;*

Regarding the identification of the diplomat, enjoying immunity, the State Department guidelines say,* &#8220;IT IS CRITICAL FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER to identify quickly and accurately the status of any person asserting immunity. The only authoritative identity document is the identity card issued by the US Department of State&#8217;s Office of Protocol...&#8221;* 

*The same is the provision in Pakistan where the Foreign Office issues identity card to such diplomats. In case of Davis, it was never issued.*

In such cases, the US State Department clearly states:* &#8220;In all cases, including those in which the individual provides a US Department of State-issued identification card, the law enforcement officer should verify the immunity status with the US Department of State....&#8221;*

Regarding the waiver of immunity, these guidelines say: *&#8220;Diplomatic and consular immunity are not intended to benefit the individual; they are intended to benefit the mission of the foreign government or international organization. Thus an individual does not &#8216;own&#8217; his or her immunity and it may be waived, in whole or in part, by the mission member&#8217;s government. The US Department of State will request a waiver of immunity in every case in which the prosecutor advises that he or she would prosecute but for immunity.&#8221;*
US guidelines support Pakistan case

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## Bratva

US guidelines support Pakistan case


ISLAMABAD: While Washington is putting tons of pressure on Islamabad to let Raymond Davis go under the cover of diplomatic immunity, the latest State Department guidelines on giving such immunity to diplomats of other countries within the US are eye-opening.

&#8220;If the US guidelines were followed and had the Davis case happened in any place within the US, Davis would have been treated exactly the same way he is being treated in Pakistan,&#8221; an expert who knows immunity procedures in both the countries observed.

*The State Department has only recently issued directions to law enforcement and judicial authorities &#8220;not to let any criminal go in the garb of diplomatic immunity without police investigation and court order&#8221;.

&#8220;It is the policy of the US Department of State with respect to alleged criminal violations by persons with immunity from criminal jurisdiction to encourage law enforcement authorities to pursue investigations vigorously, to prepare cases carefully and completely, and to document properly each incident so that charges may be pursued as far as possible in the US judicial system,&#8221; Diplomatic and Consular Immunity Guidance for Law Enforcement and Judicial Authorities of the State Department, released in September 2010, says.
*

While Pakistan is being told that Davis had a licence to kill under the disputed immunity that he supposedly enjoys, *the State Department guidelines say: &#8220;It should be emphasized that even at its highest level, diplomatic immunity does not exempt diplomatic officers from the obligation of conforming with national and local laws and regulations. Diplomatic immunity is not intended to serve as a licence for persons to flout the law and purposely avoid liability for their actions.&#8221;*

These guidelines go on: &#8220;*The purpose of these privileges and immunities is not to benefit individuals but to ensure the efficient and effective performance of their official missions on behalf of their governments. This is a crucial point for law enforcement officers to understand in their dealings with foreign diplomatic and consular personnel. While police officers are obliged, under international customary and treaty law, to recognize the immunity of the envoy, they must not ignore or condone the commission of crimes.&#8221;
*

While the US authorities and the murderer himself had admitted that he (Davis) was a member of Lahore Consulate, *the US guidelines solve the riddle, for those who are still confused, by saying, &#8220;There is a common misunderstanding that consular personnel have diplomatic status and are entitled to diplomatic immunity.&#8221;
*

Regarding the identification of the diplomat, enjoying immunity, *the State Department guidelines say, &#8220;IT IS CRITICAL FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER to identify quickly and accurately the status of any person asserting immunity. The only authoritative identity document is the identity card issued by the US Department of State&#8217;s Office of Protocol...&#8221; *

The same is the provision in Pakistan where the Foreign Office issues identity card to such diplomats. In case of Davis, it was never issued.

*In such cases, the US State Department clearly states: &#8220;In all cases, including those in which the individual provides a US Department of State-issued identification card, the law enforcement officer should verify the immunity status with the US Department of State....&#8221;

Regarding the waiver of immunity, these guidelines say: &#8220;Diplomatic and consular immunity are not intended to benefit the individual; they are intended to benefit the mission of the foreign government or international organization. Thus an individual does not &#8216;own&#8217; his or her immunity and it may be waived, in whole or in part, by the mission member&#8217;s government. The US Department of State will request a waiver of immunity in every case in which the prosecutor advises that he or she would prosecute but for immunity.&#8221;
*

US guidelines support Pakistan case

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## rohailmalhi

AstanoshKhan said:


> ... or may be Qureshi is on a hunt for revenge. Where was he all this time? Why he didn't come open in the media while he still had the official position?


 
Because he was following the policy of being tight lipped and tht really dont have anything to do with his opposition to releasing Davis with all the court preceding in place . Americans put their ful pressure on him and he didnt took that pressure and then next move by the gov from no where was to shuffle the cabinet . Aik dum say PPP Govt ko kiun yaad aa gaya kay they have to shuffle their minister cabinet.
He took a stand against America for what ever reason he did and they kicked him out in no moment.


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## 53fd

Bang Galore said:


> Isn't it odd that people living outside a country (and i am referring to both Indians & Pakistanis) want their country of origin to take a hardline position which may end up inconveniencing millions but most of them have no qualms in continuing to live in the country/countries that they want a hardline position taken against. Would appreciate their positions more if they marked their protest by chucking everything they have in the "evil" country and turn up to join the protest in their country of origin. People who only want others to sacrifice/risk a lot while being unprepared to inconvenience themselves in the least should be willing to carry the charge of being duplicitous.



I am a fan of the American people, but not the government. That doesn't mean I'm not a law abiding citizen here in the US, but I feel Pakistan has lost a lot more than it has gained from the WOT. I think the US has lost the war of the hearts and minds both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the war in Afghanistan is being pushed into Pakistan, which is threatening the national fabric of Pakistan. Quoting Musharraf, $2.5 billion per year is pittance; especially compared to the losses Pakistan has suffered hosting this war (much more than $2.5 billion), and compared to what the US spent in Afghanistan, and even considering the bailout Obama had ($787 billion) for the subprime mortgage financial crisis. $2.5 billion is peanuts, Pakistan can easily earn more revenue than that with sound economic policies, as well as a safer environment when it decides to leave the W.O.T. A decent sized/company can make $2.5 billion revenue per year, we're talking about a country here. Remember, no one in Pakistan was even familiar with even the concept of suicide bombing before the War on Terror was imposed on it.


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## DV RULES

SELF DELETED


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> The key word is "former". He has no legal authority and his statement CANNOT be given OFFICIAL weight.


 
The guy has just left the FO, IMHO hes well aware of the realities ... !


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*'Raymond Davis does not have blanket immunity'*







ISLAMABAD: 
Former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said on Wednesday that Raymond Davis, the US consular employee accused of shooting dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, does not enjoy blanket immunity.

*Qureshi was recently dropped out of the newly appointed cabinet &#8220;over his divergent opinion on the Raymond Davis issue&#8221;. His vocal stance has invited scathing criticism from colleagues in the party.
*
*Addressing a press conference in Islamabad after his meeting with US Senator John Kerry, Qureshi said his stand is principled and not personal. &#8220;I will support truth and justice,&#8221; he said emphasising that he understands the importance of US-Pak relations.*

*He said he stands by his words, adding that the dignity and self respect of the nation comes foremost.*

Qureshi refuted allegations made against him in the past few days. Responding to allegations of being sympathetic to former president Pervez Musharraf, he said&#8221;I was a part of a Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), I am part of PPP and my relation with the PPP will continue because I believe in the principles of Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and the sacrifice of Benazir Bhutto.&#8221;

Earlier, media reports had quoted a Pakistani official as saying that Davis has diplomatic immunity and the case for this would be presented in court. Requesting anonymity, the official said, &#8220;We will present all relevant laws and rules about immunity before the court and will plead that prima facie it is a case of diplomatic immunity. But it is for the court to decide.&#8221;

The row over the case of Raymond Davis shot dead two men in Lahore in what he said was a move in self-defence, has strained relations between the two allies. While the US insists Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released under the Vienna Conventions, Pakistan has so far refused to come under US pressure saying that the matter is sub judice and the law should be allowed to take its course. Police investigations and the subsequent charge-sheet submitted to the court by the police however says Davis was not acting in self-defence and that the shooting was intentional murder.

&#8216;Raymond Davis does not have blanket immunity&#8217; &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Heres an great blogpost

US Terror Campaign in Pakistan? What was Raymond Davis Shooting for in Lahore? | This Can't Be Happening

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> The key word is "former". He has no legal authority and his statement CANNOT be given OFFICIAL weight.


 
It can, if he goes to court and says he got kicked out just to fabricate the documents.

It can if he goes to court and says when he left, the Foreign Ministry did not have the immunity documents

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Quershi was droped just to make possible the cover up of RD...!


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## Devil Soul

*Pakistan says U.S. prisoner Davis has immunity*
By Chris Allbritton  1 hr 16 mins ago
LAHORE, Pakistan (Reuters)  An American jailed for shooting two Pakistanis is shielded by diplomatic immunity, a Pakistani official said Wednesday, a move that might help end a bruising row between the troubled allies.
*A local court, however, must decide the fate of Raymond Davis, the U.S. consulate employee who shot and killed two Pakistani men in the city of Lahore last month in what he said was a robbery attempt.*
"We will present all relevant laws and rules about immunity before the court and will plead that prima facie it is a case of diplomatic immunity. But it is for the court to decide," a senior Pakistani government official said on condition of anonymity.
The row over the U.S. national is the latest issue straining ties between two nations that are supposed to be working to stamp out a tenacious Islamist insurgency that has fueled attacks against U.S. soldiers in neighboring Afghanistan.
Washington has insisted Davis, whose role at the U.S. consulate in Lahore is unclear, should be released immediately.
Tuesday, President Barack Obama said the United States was working with the Pakistani government to secure the release of the former U.S. special forces soldier.
Up to now the Pakistani government, fearful of a backlash from Pakistanis already wary of the United States and enraged by the shooting on a crowded street, had said only that the matter should be decided in court.
The United States is expected to present a petition to a Lahore court Thursday to certify that Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released.
Yet freeing Davis could be risky for the unpopular Pakistani government which is already struggling with a stagnant economy, growing public discontent over rampant corruption, poverty and power cuts.
ANTI-U.S. SENTIMENT RUNS DEEP
The issue has become a lightning rod for anti-American sentiment in Pakistan, which the United States counts as an important, if unreliable, ally in its war against militancy.
Pakistan's al Qaeda-linked Taliban warned the government on Tuesday it would punish any move to release Davis and hundreds of Pakistanis have held rallies demanding he remain in jail.
Imdad Sabir, a school teacher in Lahore, said Pakistan's integrity was at stake.
"If our rulers give him to the United States, Pakistan will come out onto the streets and protest as people did in Egypt," he said, referring to the mass demonstrations that forced President Hosni Mubarak out of power earlier this month.
Mohammad Farid, a waiter at a tea stall just a few meters from where Davis shot the two men, said Davis should be held accountable under Pakistani law.
"The people will get angry and some will stage violent protests if he is released," Farid said. "People's sentiments are quite high at the moment."
Obama sent Senator John Kerry, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and member of the Democratic Party, to meet Pakistani officials Wednesday to try to resolve the crisis.
Pakistan's Dawn newspaper said the government will inform the Lahore High Court that Davis' status as a member of the consulate's administrative and technical staff made him eligible for diplomatic immunity.
But analysts say the immunity argument may not sit easily with many Pakistanis.
"The question is, whatever happens, will the government be able to sell it to the public and the family of the victims. Right now it's a very emotional issue," said Rifaat Hussain, a professor at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad.
Ties between the United States and Pakistan are already strained by U.S. unmanned drone strikes in the Pakistani northwest on the Afghan border that Pakistanis see as a violation of their sovereignty.
(Additional reporting by Augustine Anthony; Writing by Michael Georgy; Editing by Missy Ryan and Miral Fahmy)


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> It can, if he goes to court and says he got kicked out just to fabricate the documents.
> 
> It can if he goes to court and says when he left, the Foreign Ministry did not have the immunity documents



Of course. Let's see how he decides to proceed, if he does at all. Everybody, including those making statements such as these under grievance, needs due process.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Qureshi could spill the beans in LHC*

By Tariq Butt
ISLAMABAD: Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi will run into further trouble in the Pakistan People's Party (PPP) if he appeared before the Lahore High Court (LHC) on being summoned and told it that Raymond Davis couldn't be given diplomatic immunity as he was not a diplomat as per the foreign office record.

Senior PPP sources say Qureshi's position in the party has been severely dented and as the situation develops he is unlikely to fully rehabilitate himself, enjoying its absolute confidence.

His declaration, personally or through his lawyer, before the LHC after being called, if a petition filed on Tuesday is accepted, will prove to be the last straw that will break the camel's back, one PPP leader commented to The News.

However, those knowing Qureshi have no doubt that he would not deviate before the LHC froam his stance that he has taken publicly on Davis's immunity because he has based it on the record of the foreign ministry and the advice given to him by its top mandarins.

A PPP source said that the demonstrations being staged in Multan, condemning Qureshi's ouster, were not being received well by the co-chairman, President Asif Ali Zardari. He did not agree that these were spontaneous and reflected the anger of his followers that the former foreign minister has in his area.

He said that such protests were inconsequential because they would not change the ground situation. Rather these are spawning bitterness in the party against him, he said.

While Qureshi's woes are raging in the PPP, his old party, Pakistan Muslim League-N will be more than happy to welcome him as he, in the words of one of its senior leaders, left it without damaging, slandering or defaming it publicly. "He never created any controversy or made his exit from the PML-N an issue. He departed us quietly after lodging his protest."

The PML-N leader said that the party would take care of the reservations, if any, to be expressed by its senior stalwart Javed Hashmi should Qureshi decide to re-join it. It is no secret that the PML-N high command is unhappy with Hashmi's "conduct" especially his high flying statements with recent demanding across the board that all politicians including Nawaz Sharif should bring their foreign wealth back to Pakistan. That's why it has not been given him any top position like the leader of the opposition in the National Assembly or the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

Setting a new record, Hashmi won three out of four National Assembly seats he contested in the 2008 general elections. The only one that he lost was one of the two Multan seats at the hands of Qureshi. Hashmi won in Lahore and Rawalpindi and a Multan seat. Qureshi's acquaintances say he doesn't have the habit or temperament to cling to a political position if it is unpalatable for him for some time. "He would not become like some other PPP stalwarts, who have been persistently ignored and even belittled by the top leadership for speaking against party policies," one of them said.

In this connection, he mentioned the names of Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan, Naheed Khan, Senator Safdar Abbasi, Nawab Yusuf Talpur and Dr Israr Shah (who has finally been expelled from the party).

The source said that Qureshi knows well in view of the president's track record that once he was annoyed with some of his party leaders for even slight defiance, he would never adjust or accommodate them in any important party or government office.

He said that Qureshi was deeply hurt over the harsh reactions and allegations hurled over him by some mouthpieces of the presidency at the behest of Zardari. He said that the party's belated order to them not to issue statements against the former foreign minister was just eyewash after they had bitterly condemned him.

Qureshi could spill the beans in LHC

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## AstanoshKhan

Now the real test for Qureshi has begun. If he did took the stand then he should have the guts to appear in court and state the obvious.

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## AstanoshKhan

*&#8216;Davis NOT a Diplomat, Pakistan&#8217;s Dignity Foremost&#8217; &#8211; SM Qureshi Press Conference*






Former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said on Wednesday that Raymond Davis, the US consular employee accused of shooting dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, does not enjoy blanket immunity.

Qureshi was recently dropped out of the newly appointed cabinet &#8220;over his divergent opinion on the Raymond Davis issue&#8221;. His vocal stance has invited scathing criticism from colleagues in the party.

Addressing a press conference in Islamabad after his meeting with US Senator John Kerry, Qureshi said his stand is principled and not personal. &#8220;I will support truth and justice,&#8221; he said emphasising that he understands the importance of US-Pak relations.

He said he stands by his words, adding that the dignity and self respect of the nation comes foremost.

Qureshi refuted allegations made against him in the past few days. &#8220;I was a part of a PPP, I am part of PPP and my relation with the PPP will continue because I believe in the principles of Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and the sacrifice of Benazir Bhutto,&#8221; he said.

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## Developereo

Bang Galore said:


> Isn't it odd that people living outside a country (and i am referring to both Indians & Pakistanis) want their country of origin to take a hardline position which may end up inconveniencing millions but most of them have no qualms in continuing to live in the country/countries that they want a hardline position taken against. Would appreciate their positions more if they marked their protest by chucking everything they have in the "evil" country and turn up to join the protest in their country of origin. People who only want others to sacrifice/risk a lot while being unprepared to inconvenience themselves in the least should be willing to carry the charge of being duplicitous.


 
Do you honestly think that a handful of expats on internet forums are having any significant impact on the ground realities in Pakistan?


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## Roby

*Lahore shooting: Obama weighs in on spat*

WASHINGTON / LAHORE: 

*US President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that Pakistan must respect the diplomatic immunity of US consular employee Raymond Davis, who is currently in custody for shooting dead two Pakistanis, in a case straining ties between the allies.*

*In his first public remarks on the issue, Obama said Washington was working with Islamabad to secure the release of Davis, a former member of US Special Forces, who says he acted in self-defence during an armed robbery in Lahore last month.
*
Washington says Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released but the Pakistan government, fearful of a backlash at home, says the matter should be decided in court. If our diplomats are in another country, then they are not subject to that countrys local prosecution, Obama told a news conference in Washington, referring to the Vienna Conventions. We respect it with respect to diplomats who are here.

*President Obama said his administration wanted the release of Davis. Were going to be continuing to work with the Pakistani government to get this person released, he added. Obviously, were concerned about the loss of life. Were not callous about that, but there is a broader principle at stake, Obama said.*

US Senator John Kerry, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and member of President Barack Obamas Democratic Party, is expected to meet Pakistani officials on Wednesday to try to resolve the crisis.

He told a news conference in Lahore that Davis has diplomatic immunity but it does not mean that he is above the law. He assured that the US Justice Department would launch a criminal investigation into the matter. He also assured that proper action would be taken against Davis after the completion of investigation.

Senator Kerry said that both Pakistan and the United States are signatory to the Vienna Conventions. We respect your courts, but everyone should respect the international laws, he added.

He offered regrets and sympathies with the bereaved family. We are deeply, deeply sorry for that tragic incident.

Senator Kerry, who helped spearhead a record $7.5 billion aid package for Pakistan, said that his country wanted to help Pakistan. Im not here to be an arbitrator in this case, this is not my job, he said.

The US senator said the Davis issue would not affect his countrys relations with Pakistan spanning over 60-odd years.

He also sought to tone down rhetoric on the issue, calling for restraint. All politicians, ours and yours, should step back. We did not show any arrogance but we should respect the law applicable since 50 years.

Senator Kerry is scheduled to meet Nawaz Sharif, the chief of the ruling party in Punjab, and, if given security clearance, the families of the Lahore shooting victims  Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad.

Sharif had had detailed discussions with senior members of his party on the matter on Tuesday. And it was decided that Sharif would tell Senator Kerry that the matter was sub judice and the judicial process should be respected, a well-placed source in the PML-N told The Express Tribune.

An unnamed US official said that Senator Kerrys mission will be to help tone down the rhetoric (over the Davis case) and reaffirm the US partnership with Pakistan.

But an official source said that Washingtons sole concern was not Daviss fate rather it was concerned about over 500 American intelligence agents who are in Pakistan apparently involved in counter-terrorism operations.

These agents had been given long-term Pakistani visas during the rule of former President Pervez Musharraf and also during the last few months to chase Taliban and al Qaeda fighters in Pakistan, the source said.

The source said that US has already demanded diplomatic status for all of its men engaged in counter-terrorism operations in Pakistan.


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## Roby

*Taliban warns Pakistan against releasing Raymond Davis*

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani Taliban warned the government on Tuesday it would punish any move to release a US consulate employee accused of murdering two Pakistanis in a case that has inflamed already strained ties with Washington.

*If (Pakistani) rulers hand him over to America then we will target these rulers. If Pakistani courts cannot punish Davis then they should hand him over to us, said Azam Tariq, spokesman for the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (Taliban movement of Pakistan).

We will give exemplary punishment to the killer Davis.*

The warning from the al-Qaeda linked Taliban, which has kept up suicide bombings to destabilise Pakistans government despite several army offensives, underscores the charged atmosphere surrounding Davis case.

US Senator John Kerry was due in Pakistan as part of the Obama administrations efforts to resolve the crisis.

Raymond Davis, the US consular employee jailed in Lahore for shooting two Pakistanis last month, says he acted in self-defence during an armed robbery.

Washington insists Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released but the Pakistani government, fearful of a backlash from Pakistanis already wary of the United States and enraged by the shooting, says the matter should be decided in court.

On Thursday, the United States is expected to present a petition to a Lahore court to certify that Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released.

Religious parties dont win many votes in elections. But the government cant afford to ignore the groups who often seize on issues concerning the United States to promote their cause.

*Of course he (Davis) should not be released. He has committed a crime and he should be punished. He doesnt have immunity, said Yahya Mujhaid, a spokesman for Jamaat-ud-Dawa,* which was blacklisted by the UN over its links to the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) militant group blamed for the 2008 attack on Mumbai. It denies it has links to the LeT.

*If he is released, we will register our protest but in a peaceful way. We will hold rallies  Not only us, the whole of Pakistan will protest against any such move.*

Supporters of the slain men have held protests and burned US flags. In addition to the two men Davis shot, a third man was killed when a U.S. consulate vehicle, apparently trying to rescue Davis, struck and killed a passer-by.


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## Leviza

*


Roby said:



Lahore shooting: Obama weighs in on spat

WASHINGTON / LAHORE: 

US President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that Pakistan must respect the diplomatic immunity of US &#8216;consular employee&#8217; Raymond Davis, who is currently in custody for shooting dead two Pakistanis, in a case straining ties between the allies.

In his first public remarks on the issue, Obama said Washington was working with Islamabad to secure the release of Davis, a former member of US Special Forces, who says he acted in self-defence during an &#8216;armed robbery&#8217; in Lahore last month.

Washington says Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released but the Pakistan government, fearful of a backlash at home, says the matter should be decided in court. &#8220;If our diplomats are in another country, then they are not subject to that country&#8217;s local prosecution,&#8221; Obama told a news conference in Washington, referring to the Vienna Conventions. &#8220;We respect it with respect to diplomats who are here.&#8221;

President Obama said his administration wanted the release of Davis. &#8220;We&#8217;re going to be continuing to work with the Pakistani government to get this person released,&#8221; he added. &#8220;Obviously, we&#8217;re concerned about the loss of life. We&#8217;re not callous about that, but there is a broader principle at stake,&#8221; Obama said.

US Senator John Kerry, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and member of President Barack Obama&#8217;s Democratic Party, is expected to meet Pakistani officials on Wednesday to try to resolve the crisis.

He told a news conference in Lahore that Davis has diplomatic immunity but it does not mean that he is above the law. He assured that the US Justice Department would launch a criminal investigation into the matter. He also assured that proper action would be taken against Davis after the completion of investigation.

Senator Kerry said that both Pakistan and the United States are signatory to the Vienna Conventions. &#8220;We respect your courts, but everyone should respect the international laws,&#8221; he added.

He offered regrets and sympathies with the bereaved family. &#8220;We are deeply, deeply sorry for that tragic incident.&#8221;

Senator Kerry, who helped spearhead a record $7.5 billion aid package for Pakistan, said that his country wanted to help Pakistan. &#8220;I&#8217;m not here to be an arbitrator in this case, this is not my job,&#8221; he said.

The US senator said the Davis issue would not affect his country&#8217;s relations with Pakistan spanning over 60-odd years.

He also sought to tone down rhetoric on the issue, calling for restraint. &#8220;All politicians, ours and yours, should step back. We did not show any arrogance but we should respect the law applicable since 50 years.&#8221;

Senator Kerry is scheduled to meet Nawaz Sharif, the chief of the ruling party in Punjab, and, if given security clearance, the families of the Lahore shooting victims &#8211; Faizan Haider and Faheem Shamshad.

Sharif had had detailed discussions with senior members of his party on the matter on Tuesday. And it was decided that Sharif would tell Senator Kerry that the matter was sub judice and the judicial process should be respected, a well-placed source in the PML-N told The Express Tribune.

An unnamed US official said that Senator Kerry&#8217;s mission will be to &#8220;help tone down the rhetoric (over the Davis case) and reaffirm the US partnership with Pakistan&#8221;.

But an official source said that Washington&#8217;s sole concern was not Davis&#8217;s fate rather it was concerned about over 500 American intelligence agents who are in Pakistan apparently involved in counter-terrorism operations.

These agents had been given long-term Pakistani visas during the rule of former President Pervez Musharraf and also during the last few months to chase Taliban and al Qaeda fighters in Pakistan, the source said.

The source said that US has already demanded diplomatic status for all of its &#8220;men&#8221; engaged in counter-terrorism operations in Pakistan.

Click to expand...

 
Obama and this Senator Kerry needs to understand one thing very clearly that "He(Davis ) dont have enjoy diplomatic immunity under article 41"

ALSO WE PAKISTANIES DO NOT TRUST US Justice Department AND COURTS ANY MORE............*

Obama and this Kerry needs to tell me that can i kill someone in the name of self defense ????? 
why dont Obama and this Kerry give that car and person involved in crushing other person ??????

stop saying foolish things and wait for the courts to give its verdict ......


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## VCheng

AstanoshKhan said:


> Now the real test for Qureshi has begun. If he did took the stand then he should have the guts to appear in court and state the obvious.


 
Everybody should realize that there are many layers of complexities involved. For example, the US government would like to plan for a potential change of government, and will likely ensure that any replacements that come up are also "on board". Thus, ardent opposition now who get into power will suddenly find it useful to continue existing policies. Have we not seen that before many times?

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## Leviza

VCheng said:


> Everybody should realize that there are many layers of complexities involved. For example, the US government would like to plan for a potential change of government, and will likely ensure that any replacements that come up are also "on board". Thus, ardent opposition now who get into power will suddenly find it useful to continue existing policies. Have we not seen that before many times?


 
VCheng i respect you and your comments, but i think you are missing few points here.....
sometimes US gov plans are as rubbish as garbage  and they dont work...for example placing CIA operatives in Pakistan.... they only succeed when working under cover but they try to do things in Pakistan as they are in Afghanistan which always result in issues like these.

Even for 1 second if i trust what this guy is saying that he acted in self defense , then i *like to know can we kill someone in the name of self defense in USA as well ? coz i know there are lots of knife/gun crimes in NY which are very serious and the US policy is that "one cannot use more force in the name of self defense ".... *

I have seen lot of self defense cases and after acting in self defense 99% of people are more terrified then what this guy did.... and proofed that he didnt acted in self defense 

History tell us US it self have never gave diplomatic immunity to anyone.......... so basically US need to shut up and stay in their limits and let the court do justice...... WHY THEY ARE AFRAID OF JUSTICE NOW

actually prob is not diplomatic immunity , problem is if they let the courts of Pakistan taking this case then all of their CIA operative will come under observation and thats the big concern..... and now even they take him out still the CIA/Black water etc will expose.....

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## Spring Onion

AstanoshKhan said:


> Now the real test for Qureshi has begun. If he did took the stand then he should have the guts to appear in court and state the obvious.


 
i watched his press conference till end and he did (warn ) say that if needed and summoned by court he will say it there.


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## VCheng

Leviza said:


> VCheng i respect you and your comments, but i think you are missing few points here.....
> sometimes US gov plans are as rubbish as garbage  and they dont work...for example placing CIA operatives in Pakistan.... they only succeed when working under cover but they try to do things in Pakistan as they are in Afghanistan which always result in issues like these.
> 
> Even for 1 second if i trust what this guy is saying that he acted in self defense , then i *like to know can we kill someone in the name of self defense in USA as well ? coz i know there are lots of knife/gun crimes in NY which are very serious and the US policy is that "one cannot use more force in the name of self defense ".... *
> 
> I have seen lot of self defense cases and after acting in self defense 99% of people are more terrified then what this guy did.... and proofed that he didnt acted in self defense
> 
> History tell us US it self have never gave diplomatic immunity to anyone.......... so basically US need to shut up and stay in their limits and let the court do justice...... WHY THEY ARE AFRAID OF JUSTICE NOW
> 
> actually prob is not diplomatic immunity , problem is if they let the courts of Pakistan taking this case then all of their CIA operative will come under observation and thats the big concern..... and now even they take him out still the CIA/Black water etc will expose.....



Thank you, and I respect your point of view too.

The key difference between what I am saying, and what you are saying is this: *Moral indignation, ethics of Right and Wrong, and a populist view of national policies DO NOT translate into international politics, including the present incident*.

I hope you understand my contention a little better now.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Everybody should realize that there are many layers of complexities involved. For example, the US government would like to plan for a potential change of government, and will likely ensure that any replacements that come up are also "on board". Thus, ardent opposition now who get into power will suddenly find it useful to continue existing policies. Have we not seen that before many times?


 
lately US had been trying to do that getting frustrated with zardari but since any change at this moment in my personal view is not in favour of Pakistani public and above all we dont have anyone better than current govt. all others are the same so no big change for public will be there.

as far as Davis is concerned. I think let him free , have a good compensation for the families of 3 victims , normalise the situation and keep an eye on US operatives next time. dont let them kill your people without paying the same price next time.

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## Spring Onion

Leviza said:


> Even for 1 second if i trust what this guy is saying that he acted in self defense , then i *like to know can we kill someone in the name of self defense in USA as well ? coz i know there are lots of knife/gun crimes in NY which are very serious and the US policy is that "one cannot use more force in the name of self defense ".... *
> 
> 
> e.....


 
A native American can but you cant because you are NO USA so till you become one you cant talk on emotional grounds

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## AstanoshKhan

VCheng said:


> Everybody should realize that there are many layers of complexities involved. For example, the US government would like to plan for a potential change of government, and will likely ensure that any replacements that come up are also "on board". Thus, ardent opposition now who get into power will suddenly find it useful to continue existing policies. Have we not seen that before many times?


 
It is a fact that our present (and the past) administration is (were) under the US influence, this much said, what if Qureshi appears in the court and give his verdict against the wishes of PPP/USA Governments? This thing is getting more and more complex for both Pakistan and USA since this time, the sentiments of general populace has involved very deeply.

It reminds me of A very famous quote from Charlie Wilson's War

There's a little boy and on his 14th birthday he gets a horse... and everybody in the village says, "how wonderful. The boy got a horse" And the Zen master says, "we'll see." Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg, and everyone in the village says, "How terrible." And the Zen master says, "We'll see." Then, a war breaks out and all the young men have to go off and fight... except the boy can't cause his legs all messed up. and everybody in the village says, "How wonderful." the Zen master says, "We'll see."

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## AstanoshKhan

Jana said:


> i watched his press conference till end and he did (warn ) say that if needed and summoned by court he will say it there.


 
On the basis of "if summoned".


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## VCheng

AstanoshKhan said:


> It is a fact that our present (and the past) administration is (were) under the US influence, this much said, what if Qureshi appears in the court and give his verdict against the wishes of PPP/USA Governments? This thing is getting more and more complex for both Pakistan and USA since this time, the sentiments of general populace has involved very deeply.
> .
> .
> .
> .



There is "complexity" only for public consumption. The end result has already been decided and only step wise implementation remains. Even Qureshi's role in all of this has been carefully scripted and taken into account.

I do agree with your comments about the deep sentiments of the general population, but I am truly sad to say that, like many times before, they will not be heard by either their own government or internationally. That is the painful truth.


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## Spring Onion

AstanoshKhan said:


> On the basis of "if summoned".


 
what do you mean on the basis of ? if court proceedings continue(which i doubt will) and he was asked to appear before the court to comment on the status of davis (as he today also said that he had had studied the papers of davis and according to them he is not a diplomat) so indeed qureshi will appear for his statement as ex FM


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

I m surprised at Qureshi... I thought the man was a total puppet rubbing his heads with Hillery Clinton et al... 

What changed him... probably his remaining bit of conscience could not let him lie??


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## Leviza

Jana said:


> A native American can but you cant because you are NO USA so till you become one you cant talk on emotional grounds


 
Although this is against the basic human rights , that one guy based on his/her background have different laws applied but still......
USA now need to shut up in case of this guy as he is not a Pakistan


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## Leviza

VCheng said:


> Thank you, and I respect your point of view too.
> 
> The key difference between what I am saying, and what you are saying is this: *Moral indignation, ethics of Right and Wrong, and a populist view of national policies DO NOT translate into international politics, including the present incident*.
> 
> I hope you understand my contention a little better now.


 
i hope you have come across that USA law where the immunity needs to be justified in US courts if any embassy personal involved in any sort of incident in USA ? either this law is wrong and against the international policies or USA is demanding something different.

as a matter of fact we are on same lines with different approch....


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## VCheng

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I m surprised at Qureshi... I thought the man was a total puppet rubbing his heads with Hillery Clinton et al...
> 
> What changed him... probably his remaining bit of conscience could not let him lie??



Conscience? 

A higher price now, and a calculation for a better position for the possible aftermath are much more likely motivations my dear Sir.

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## VCheng

Leviza said:


> i hope you have come across that USA law where the immunity needs to be justified in US courts if any embassy personal involved in any sort of incident in USA ? either this law is wrong and against the international policies or USA is demanding something different.
> 
> as a matter of fact we are on same lines with different approch....



Rule of law in the homeland is quite different from pursuit of the supreme national interest internationally for the USA. Please do not confuse the two.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

VCheng said:


> Conscience?
> 
> A higher price now, and a calculation for a better position for the possible aftermath are much more likely motivations my dear Sir.


 
You think this government is going to fall over this issue?? I would ve agreed with you but the problem is there are no mainstream alternatives left... Americans are kind of desperate because of this...

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## Spring Onion

Leviza said:


> Although this is against the basic human rights , that one guy based on his/her background have different laws applied but still......
> USA now need to shut up in case of this guy as he is not a Pakistan


 

as if there had been no case of human rights violations before. i feel more than human rights this case has more to do with power wrangling at strategic arena so take it this way =, make your point, normalise the situation. the point you wanted to convey to CIA you had already did . so

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## greatsequence

*After Qureshi, Carmela prepares for sacrifice*

By Umar Cheema
Wednesday, February 16, 2011


ISLAMABAD: The second high-profile casualty of the Raymond David fiasco, after Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi, appears to be the US Consul General in Lahore Carmela Conroy who, sources say, has been told to start packing for home.

Sources close to Western diplomats say Washington is unhappy with the performance of Carmela, who is likely to be recalled in the next couple of weeks. The US Embassy, however, denies such reports, though not in very strong words. &#8220;That&#8217;s not true,&#8221; said the embassy spokesperson, Courtney Beale, when approached for her version in this respect. 

The News has heard the same reports from two different sources known for their close links with Western diplomatic missions in Islamabad. They say the US diplomats in Islamabad and Lahore are under intense pressure from Washington and have also been reprimanded for their failure in arm-twisting the ruling elite of Pakistan on the Raymond Davis issue. 

Carmela stands first in the firing line and &#8220;she has been asked to pack up,&#8221; said a diplomatic source. She won&#8217;t be recalled immediately though, the source went on to say, and this process may take 2-3 weeks. 

Carmela held a string of meetings with the top officials of the Punjab government, pressing for the release of Raymond but in vain. According to an official, the Raymond issue is largely being handled by the National Security Adviser to President Obama and the State Department had no emphatic say in this regard.

Carmela has served in Afghanistan and Japan before assuming office in Lahore. &#8220;She is sensible, sociable, and professional.&#8221; This is how a Lahore-based journalist spoke of her. &#8220;Unlike her predecessors who would mostly focus on political meetings, she also attends social gatherings, pays visits to fashion shows and other places.&#8221;

Comparing Carmela to her predecessor, Brian D. Hunt, one journalist said the latter was also very frank and social but with too much focus on politics. The US Consulate General under Brian&#8217;s watch was the main source of information for Lahore-based journalists on the likely no confidence move against Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani last year. 

&#8220;Brian would even advise the major opposition parties in this respect and used to say the motion could succeed provided they moved it jointly,&#8221; said a senior journalist, adding this showed Washington&#8217;s thinking that it was not bothered if the PPP government was toppled.

After Qureshi, Carmela prepares for sacrifice


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## Spring Onion

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I m surprised at Qureshi... I thought the man was a total puppet rubbing his heads with Hillery Clinton et al...
> 
> What changed him... probably his remaining bit of conscience could not let him lie??


 
he played his cards well . now he is in position to bargain for a bigger status . you never knew he might be addressing you the dear nation as PM soon

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## khurasaan1

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I m surprised at Qureshi... I thought the man was a total puppet rubbing his heads with Hillery Clinton et al...
> 
> What changed him... probably his remaining bit of conscience could not let him lie??


 
He has been changed from his experiences with the American thugz....Alhamdolillah..Now he learnt how to deal with these criminalz...


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## khurasaan1

Jana said:


> he played his cards well . now he is in position to bargain for a bigger status . you never knew he might be addressing you the dear nation as PM soon


 
We will luv him to be our prime minister due to his honest nature...Insha-Allah...

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## Spring Onion

khurasaan1 said:


> We will luv him to be our prime minister due to his honest nature...Insha-Allah...


 
politics and honesty in current system of politics of all colours , are two different odd things

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## VCheng

Jana said:


> politics and honesty in current system of politics of all colours , are two different odd things


 
EXACTLY a great and valid point.


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## Durrak




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## Leviza

VCheng said:


> Rule of law in the homeland is quite different from pursuit of the supreme national interest internationally for the USA. Please do not confuse the two.


 
cool, i hope all of USA need to understand the same thing from Pakistani point of view as well................ 
USA cannot in the name of supreme national interest violates international laws....
WE PAKISTANIES SAYING THE SAME THING..............LET THE COURT DECIDE IT ......AND ITS USA WHO WANTS TO BYPASS IT HENCE TENSION...


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## VCheng

Leviza said:


> cool, i hope all of USA need to understand the same thing from Pakistani point of view as well................
> USA cannot in the name of supreme national interest violates international laws....
> WE PAKISTANIES SAYING THE SAME THING..............LET THE COURT DECIDE IT ......AND ITS USA WHO WANTS TO BYPASS IT HENCE TENSION...


 
Saying the same thing is fine by me, but when a matter comes up against US national interests, which, in this case it does, then Pakistan better have the wherewithal to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Can that be done? I don't think so frankly.


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## Imran Khan

keep him in jail atleast few more months .after he arrested no drone attacks ehhehehhehehehe. damn why not these PPP beghrat understand USA IS NOT THERE GOD.


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## Leviza

VCheng said:


> Saying the same thing is fine by me, but when a matter comes up against US national interests, which, in this case it does, then Pakistan better have the wherewithal to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Can that be done? I don't think so frankly.


 
nice i like what you are saying here  , let see what sort of lollipop USA can offer and where Pakistani leaders will accept it 
as far as general public, they want court decisions .... 

even now purpose of all this Raymond Davis is getting clear, they wanted to create problems(domestic/financial/aid/etc) and differences in general public and gov and they are 50% got it ...... now its in gov interest to see the general public wants and acts accordingly

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## VCheng

Leviza said:


> nice i like what you are saying here  , let see what sort of lollipop USA can offer and where Pakistani leaders will accept it
> as far as general public, they want court decisions ....
> 
> even now purpose of all this Raymond Davis is getting clear, they wanted to create problems(domestic/financial/aid/etc) and differences in general public and gov and they are 50% got it ...... now its in gov interest to see the general public wants and acts accordingly




Thank you for understanding my point. 

Please do also note that the content of my posts is always with the best of intentions.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Thank you for understanding my point.
> 
> Please do also note that the content of my posts is always with the best of intentions.


 
 with an avatar like that ??


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> with an avatar like that ??


 
LOL! you made my day JanaJi! 

I will change it to whatever you suggest.

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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> LOL! you made my day JanaJi!
> 
> I will change it to whatever you suggest.


  you do it. in the meanwhile main zara kitchen ka chakar laga lon to hell with davis shavis


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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> LOL! you made my day JanaJi!
> 
> I will change it to whatever you suggest.


 
I like it.. Personally i always hated the road runner


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## Jigs

Who does this joker think he is? Trying to leave. You killed 2 people buddy stop acting like your rights are being violated you don't get to be annoyed when the families of the dead are probably crying right now.

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## Solomon2

khurasaan1 said:


> We will luv him to be our prime minister due to his honest nature...Insha-Allah...


The fact is that even if Davis' immunity had been of the weaker "consular" type he would _still_ be immune from jail and prosecution under international law. That's because Pakistani police on the scene acknowledged that the men he killed were known criminals and one of them had pulled a gun on Davis before he was shot by Davis. No further investigation is necessary; such killings do not meet the "grave crime" murder standard, but are at most manslaughter. 

Qureshi surely knows all this. So the implication is just what you wrote, that he is manipulating Pakistanis through the anti-American media to gather political support. Are you really going to let yourselves be twisted so easily?


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## VCheng

Jana said:


> you do it. in the meanwhile main zara kitchen ka chakar laga lon to hell with davis shavis


 


RescueRanger said:


> I like it.. Personally i always hated the road runner



RescueRanger: thanks, but I have a soft spot for my friend JanaJi. I hope she likes the new avatar and signature. 

To stay on topic, is RD required to be present in court tomorrow or is it only court proceedings?

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## Imran Khan

lanat hai aysi police per jo pakistaniyoon ko to chitrol or amercans ke agy ghulam jesy hai . kash main investigator hota is kuty ka










Ak-47A said:


>


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## Leviza

Solomon2 said:


> The fact is that even if Davis' immunity had been of the weaker "consular" type he would _still_ be immune from jail and prosecution under international law. That's because Pakistani police on the scene acknowledged that the men he killed were known criminals and one of them had pulled a gun on Davis before he was shot by Davis. No further investigation is necessary; such killings do not meet the "grave crime" murder standard, but are at most manslaughter.
> 
> Qureshi surely knows all this. So the implication is just what you wrote, that he is manipulating Pakistanis through the anti-American media to gather political support. Are you really going to let yourselves be twisted so easily?


 
Here come another one 
under article 41 he is not enjoying this immunity  as he is working in Lahore consulate as a consultant not in US embassy in ISB..... 
and to have this immunity he need to have status given to him by FO in ISB which is not there as per FO.... so lets the court give its verdict now and shutup


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## AstanoshKhan

Jana said:


> what do you mean on the basis of ? if court proceedings continue(which i doubt will) and he was asked to appear before the court to comment on the status of davis (as he today also said that he had had studied the papers of davis and according to them he is not a diplomat) so indeed qureshi will appear for his statement as ex FM


 
FO has already issued a letter to the court regarding his diplomatic status (after firing Qureshi), hence eliminating the chances of Qureshi being asked to appear in court.

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## r3alist

VCHENG, Are you a self-respecting man and human being? You are sounding like an-apologist for abject capitulation.

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## VCheng

AstanoshKhan said:


> FO has already issued a letter to the court regarding his diplomatic status (after firing Qureshi), hence eliminating the chances of Qureshi being asked to appear in court.


 
That will be the OFFICIAL position from a legal standpoint.


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## Leviza

Imran Khan said:


> lanat hai aysi police per jo pakistaniyoon ko to chitrol or amercans ke agy ghulam jesy hai . kash main investigator hota is kuty ka


 
yes is ka drawing room ka visit due hai 
9 number ka chitar bhee ready hai let see


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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> VCHENG, Are you a self-respecting man and human being? You are sounding like an-apologist for abject capitulation.



Please note that I am not the topic of this thread. We can take this discussion elsewhere if you so wish. 

BTW, YES, and YES.


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## Solomon2

Leviza said:


> ...to have this immunity he need to have status given to him by FO -


Qureshi claimed Davis didn't have "blanket" immunity. He didn't deny that Davis possessed at the least the weaker sort of consular immunity and that status would be quite enough to avoid imprisonment and even prosecution in this case.


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## tallboy123

So will davis be let out free...?


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## Leviza

VCheng said:


> That will be the OFFICIAL position from a legal standpoint.


 
LOL .... court knows how things are being handle in Pak Gov 
(Ex-FO already given statement) so they will call all concerned people and see when these sort of changes got done for his immunity .... 

EVEN himself told in initial investigations that he works in Lahore consulate and under article 41 he need to face LAW of host country 
chill


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## VCheng

tallboy123 said:


> So will davis be let out free...?


 
YES is the short answer, whether anyone likes it or not. He will of course face charges in US courts which do have jurisdiction over him.


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## Leviza

Solomon2 said:


> Qureshi claimed Davis didn't have "blanket" immunity. He didn't deny that Davis possessed at the least the weaker sort of consular immunity and that status would be quite enough to avoid imprisonment and even prosecution in this case.


 
Even in this case if he didnt have Blanket immunity then he need to face courts in host country please go and read article 41 about that not just article 31


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## Solomon2

Leviza said:


> Even in this case if he didnt have Blanket immunity then he need to face courts in host country please go and read article 41 about that not just article 31


I did. Even if he needs to appear in court for a hearing - and I don't believe this is the case, because Davis has diplomatic immunity, not "consular" - he can't be imprisoned during the investigation of an incident that doesn't meet the "grave crime" standard: "...consular officers shall not be committed to prison or be liable to any other form of restriction on their personal freedom save in execution of a judicial decision of final effect." (Article 41, paragraph 2)


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## Jigs

VCheng said:


> YES is the short answer, whether anyone likes it or not. He will of course face charges in US courts which do have jurisdiction over him.


 
We know that is pointless. Obama isn't working this hard so they can put the guy in a U.S. Prison. He obviously has substantial value to the U.S. government.

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## VCheng

Jigs said:


> We know that is pointless. Obama isn't working this hard so they can put the guy in a U.S. Prison. He obviously has substantial value to the U.S. government.




Pointless in your opinion it may be, but that is what will happen I am afraid.


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## zs4

Firing 17 rounds is a bit excessive for self defense.


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## Spring Onion

tallboy123 said:


> So will davis be let out free...?


 
i think you dint follow the thread/s on him. we have been saying he would be freed at last. what has been going on and the points came to fore and the world has also seen it no matter how much in denial they are but many things about activities of US operatives came to light and as well as that of our agencies. i feel its good in the long run.

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## Jigs

Anyone have info on the firearm ?


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## Solomon2

Jana said:


> i feel its good in the long run.


Tell us more.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> Pointless in your opinion it may be, but that is what will happen I am afraid.


 
as Jigs said RD is has substantial value to the U.S and we feel he knows many things vital for US to keep hiding as well as many things about our own govt and deals too so US is more interested to lift him to US then leaving him here.

he may be tried in US but only when Pentagon is afraid that something might wake up his conscience like Swami Ananad

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## VCheng

Jana said:


> as Jigs said RD is has substantial value to the U.S and we feel he knows many things vital for US to keep hiding as well as many things about our own govt and deals too so US is more interested to lift him to US then leaving him here.
> 
> he may be tried in US but only when Pentagon is afraid that something might wake up his conscience like Swami Ananad



That is only speculative at this point JanaJi. I am referring to only the process and its inevitability.


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## Jigs

VCheng said:


> That is only speculative at this point JanaJi. I am referring to only the process and its inevitability.


 
I was under the impression the Pakistani government had little influence on the Judicial branch. Do you believe the U.S. still has the necessary leverage in Pakistan to get this guy back ?


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## monitor

I my self didn't follow the whole thread due to huge size .in fact i didn't expect that killing of just two men would create such out come where every day we are hearing about the drone attack and killing of innocence people. but in this case where the American are dare to kill some body inside its capital and most probably this hit the pakistani psyche too much . what i think it might create hubbub but the authority will be force to release this killer after getting some concession from America in return . this incident have created a very awkward situation for both Pakistan and America.


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## RescueRanger

Jigs said:


> Anyone have info on the firearm ?


 
Which one, the Glock Davis had or the norinco pistols the other guys had?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

now it looks very hard for davis to save himself from prosecution because after press conference by Shah Mahmood Qureshi it is clear that he wasn,t a diplomat and have no such kind of immunity.
other thing present government can,t so big risk on that issue because his safe release mean by by to government as mob is going to throw them off the saddles.


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## Spring Onion

VCheng said:


> That is only speculative at this point JanaJi. I am referring to only the process and its inevitability.


 
If the inevitable happens then personally i feel that will boast alot of respect and public support for US in Pakistan.

so i will say lets hand him over to US. get good compensation for the families of three victims atleast one million dollars for each so that atleast three families can have good education, health and other such facilities. try him in the US and punish him for the crime.

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## RescueRanger

monitor said:


> I my self didn't follow the whole thread due to huge size .in fact i didn't expect that killing of just two men would create such out come where every day we are hearing about the drone attack and killing of innocence people. but in this case where the American are dare to kill some body inside its capital and most probably this hit the pakistani psyche too much . what i think it might create hubbub but the authority will be force to release this killer after getting some concession from America in return . this incident have created a very awkward situation for both Pakistan and America.


 


> .in fact i didn't expect that killing of just two men



How casual you are about the loss of life...


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## monitor

zs4 said:


> Firing 17 rounds is a bit excessive for self defense.


 
Firing 17 round was not to self defence but to showcase American arrogance .


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## VCheng

Jigs said:


> I was under the impression the Pakistani government had little influence on the Judicial branch. Do you believe the U.S. still has the necessary leverage in Pakistan to get this guy back ?



Your impression is quite naive Sir. And yes, the leverage of the US in Pakistan is as present, strong and multi-factorial as always.


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## Jigs

RescueRanger said:


> Which one, the Glock Davis had or the norinco pistols the other guys had?


 
The Glock. I take it considering he fired 17 rounds it had to have been a double stacked 9mm magazine which holds 17 rounds. So he emptied the whole magazine.


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## Leviza

Jana said:


> If the inevitable happens then personally i feel that will boast alot of respect and public support for US in Pakistan.
> 
> so i will say lets hand him over to US.* get good compensation for the families of three victims atleast one million dollars for each so that atleast three families can have good education, health and other such facilities*. try him in the US and punish him for the crime.


 
As Prime minister just said today only families, court or public can decide now...
if families of these 2 people dont want any such compensations then it cannot be impose on them
*USA is still in deny mode for the 3rd person and not giving any sort of help... now how can we trust USA for this guy ? they wont give the families any justice......*.

BTW what about one person wife who asked for justice b4 dieing ......????


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## monitor

RescueRanger said:


> How casual you are about the loss of life...


 its very unfortunate and I regret for the man who have lost his life .


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Jana said:


> If the inevitable happens then personally i feel that will boast alot of respect and public support for US in Pakistan.
> 
> so i will say lets hand him over to US. get good compensation for the families of three victims atleast one million dollars for each so that atleast three families can have good education, health and other such facilities. try him in the US and punish him for the crime.


 
castles in the sky.


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## RescueRanger

Jigs said:


> The Glock. I take it considering he fired 17 rounds it had to have been a double stacked 9mm magazine which holds 17 rounds. So he emptied the whole magazine.


 
When he was arrested he had 4 glock mags in his possession. It could very well be a double stacked mag.


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## iPhone

Jana said:


> lately US had been trying to do that getting frustrated with zardari but since any change at this moment in my personal view is not in favour of Pakistani public and above all we dont have anyone better than current govt. all others are the same so no big change for public will be there.
> 
> as far as Davis is concerned. I think let him free , have a good compensation for the families of 3 victims , normalise the situation and keep an eye on US operatives next time. dont let them kill your people without paying the same price next time.



This seems to be the solution govt is opting for, too. Mr. Gilani was mentioning a thing of sort with Islamic system of "Qasas". Though with this option Davis has to be convicted and found guilty of the murders and his fate left upon the families of the victims to decide, as per the Islamic law. 

And it seems quiet plausible the families would let Davis off the hook for a proper compensation. That would help cool down the public anger. Now if only that girl hadn't committed suicide.

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## Jigs

RescueRanger said:


> When he was arrested he had 4 glock mags in his possession. It could very well be a double stacked mag.


 
That is what the Glock 17 (9mm) comes with one 17 round magazine as standard. So a good chance he fired till he was out. I can see someone firing that away in a shootout quite fast but considering this was out of his car at two individuals who did not fire anything back it certainly brings up the question as to what exactly his motive was.

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## VCheng

Jigs said:


> That is what the Glock 17 (9mm) comes with one 17 round magazine as standard. So a good chance he fired till he was out. I can see someone firing that away in a shootout quite fast but considering this was out of his car at two individuals who did not fire anything back it certainly brings up the question as to what exactly his motive was.


 
Mere speculation is not useful at this point Sir.

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## Spring Onion

Leviza said:


> As Prime minister just said today only families, court or public can decide now...
> if families of these 2 people dont want any such compensations then it cannot be impose on them
> *USA is still in deny mode for the 3rd person and not giving any sort of help... now how can we trust USA for this guy ? they wont give the families any justice......*.
> 
> BTW what about one person wife who asked for justice b4 dieing ......????


 
Trust? or no trust do you think US really needs it or even cares?

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

well looks america wants to eat every thing in free.


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## Jigs

VCheng said:


> Mere speculation is not useful at this point Sir.


 
Well there isn't much else to do is there ? Except wait for the courts to decide on this guy.


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## VCheng

Jigs said:


> Well there isn't much else to do is there ? Except wait for the courts to decide on this guy.



Isn't there a hearing tomorrow?


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Oh so the two air bases , land route and air route to Afghanistan for US air force from Arabian sea. mean nothing to Najam sethi. Why US has given more then 15 Billion to Pakistan , just in love or charity . 
The biggest blackmailing Pakistan has is , if you will not support us the country will goes to extremist and that's opens the money bags for them'.

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## VCheng

So RD is being moved from Kot Lakhpat jail to Adiala Jail. This move is probably significant, since it means he will not be in court and will be out of Lahore too.


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## Spring Onion

ajay said:


> make me  did i hit a nerve


 
it was amusing you are acting like personal secretary of davis feeling getting hit on your nerve


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## Gin ka Pakistan

> Shame no one cares about Pakistani mobs taking justice into own hands to kill robbers but when the gora does it all hell breaks out.
> 
> 
> Mob lynching:



The incident in Sialkot - Pakistan was used all over the world to degrade Pakistani life. I still remember So many at my work made fun of it to look down on Pakistan.

Any how some people say that people killed were *Pakistani law agency under cover agents* tiring to stop Americans in sensitive area *not robbers*. That's the reason Pakistan is serious on the issue else who cares about robbers. Police had no record of crime what so ever against the people killed.

Do you think two Ministers will leave their jobs if the guys were common thief's.


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## ajay

This Davis did not wake up one day and decide to shoot 2 pakistanis dead something must have happened is the point im making and these so called persons who were shot must have done something why else would he unleash bullets? makes no sense


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## VCheng

ajay said:


> This Davis did not wake up one day and decide to shoot 2 pakistanis dead something must have happened is the point im making and these so called persons who were shot must have done something why else would he unleash bullets? makes no sense


 
*SPECULATION IS USELESS* in my opinion.


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## ajay

VCheng said:


> *SPECULATION IS USELESS* in my opinion.





Yep but why would someone just wake up and decide to gun down 2 persons in cold blood? there must have been a trigger for him to act like this


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## Ra'ad

Hi, this is my 1st post. I read in the DAWN newspaper today:


> The police, however, captured Davis while he was trying to flee in his car and recovered a 9mm pistol with five magazines, 75 bullets, a passport, a long-range wireless set, a global positioning system (GPS) with charger, two cellphones, a telescope, infrared headlight, camera, torch, survival kit, memory cards, packed niswar, local and US currency, ATM cards, a PIA ticket, blank cheques etc. Davis claimed during investigation that the men wanted to rob him and he had killed them in self-defence. After killing Faizan and Fahim, Davis also photographed them and called the US consulate to send someone to help him.



US embassy claims that R. Davis is a technical worker (thus having diplomatic immunity), i find it incompatible that a technical worker possessed GPS, long range wireless, and above all telescope and infrared headlight.


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## pkd

KARACHI: Documents obtained by DawnNews on Wednesday revealed that Raymond Davis, the US gunman accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, is a permanent employee of the US Overseas Protective Security Services.

The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.

Meanwhile, government authorities have decided to shift the US official to Adiala Jail where his visiting hours will be limited to three hours.
DawnNews

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## Leviza

ajay said:


> Yep but why would someone just wake up and decide to gun down 2 persons in cold blood? there must have been a trigger for him to act like this


 
Answer to this Yet to be known with the help of items taken into custody from him....... As he is not answering investigators questions....(i hope they will use some USA based rules to get the answers  you all know what sort of techniques USA people used in WOT)

as its now known that he is spying on something and maybe ISI personals were following him and he in error(maybe robbers , maybe thought they were the one who followed him etc) killed someone else.....


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Ok so every day Pakistanis are killed in Karachi or life has no value in Pakistani villages etc. but does it mean that Pakistan should become a jungle and if Pakistan becomes a jungle then why won't people look at Islamist for justice. 

A big time propaganda is going on about Pakistani life in west, any one who want to kill people should go to Pakistan as life has no value there , *shame on Pakistani elite who think the same*. 

So the double standard is (according to Indians here) that if Pakistani life has no value then why to punish a white man????? , hey its hunting season in Pakistan.


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## Leviza

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Ok so every day Pakistanis are killed in Karachi or life has no value in Pakistani villages etc. but does it mean that Pakistan should become a jungle and if Pakistan becomes a jungle then why won't people look at Islamist for justice.
> 
> A big time propaganda is going on about Pakistani life in west, any one who want to kill people should go to Pakistan as life has no value there , *shame on Pakistani elite who think the same*.
> 
> So the double standard is (according to Indians here) that if Pakistani life has no value then why to punish a white man????? , hey its hunting season in Pakistan.


 
yes and they are fools if the think this way as people get killed in USA/UK/ etc every day of same incidents ......... this person should be handled by someone who knows how to get answers in thana culture..... same techniques need to be used which USA people used in WOT.


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## ajay

Leviza said:


> Answer to this Yet to be known with the help of items taken into custody from him....... As he is not answering investigators questions....(i hope they will use some USA based rules to get the answers  you all know what sort of techniques USA people used in WOT)
> 
> as its now known that he is spying on something and maybe ISI personals were following him and he in error(maybe robbers , maybe thought they were the one who followed him etc) killed someone else.....





Theres only a number of reasons why this Davis is becoming a high profile case,

1 Yes he is indeed a spy and holds vital secrets the CIA/Blackwater etc will do anything not to let him spill the beans hence why they 'claim' he has diplomatic status *OR*:

2a) Is being used as a political tool by Pakistani goverment to win mass support especially after the blasphemy cockup to show Pakistan is no push over to the US and stem the growing anti-american rise from the public. 

2b) Get more $$ from the yanks bit of a coincidence Obama is seeking to provide extra $3.5 in aid??


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## RescueRanger

pkd said:


> KARACHI: Documents obtained by DawnNews on Wednesday revealed that Raymond Davis, the US gunman accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, is a permanent employee of the US Overseas Protective Security Services.
> 
> The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.
> 
> Meanwhile, government authorities have decided to shift the US official to Adiala Jail where his visiting hours will be limited to three hours.
> &#8212;DawnNews


 
Which retard is leaking these documents. For god's sake.

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## Leviza

ajay said:


> Theres only a number of reasons why this Davis is becoming a high profile case,
> 
> 1 Yes he is indeed a spy and holds vital secrets the CIA/Blackwater etc will do anything not to let him spill the beans hence why they 'claim' he has diplomatic status *OR*:
> 
> 2a) Is being used as a political tool by Pakistani goverment to win mass support especially after the blasphemy cockup to show Pakistan is no push over to the US and stem the growing anti-american rise from the public.
> 
> 2b) Get more $$ from the yanks bit of a coincidence Obama is seeking to provide extra $3.5 in aid??


 
1- most likely 

2a- these leaders already occupied with lots of other issues then creating one more for them ......... 
2b- $$ wont replace the people anger and $3.5 wont be given in 1 go , already USA is behind and need to give $$ for services they are getting in WOT from Pakistan....


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## GUNNER

* Article published in Dawn on February 10, 2011*

For the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, a parking ticket violation is more atrocious than a murder. As a junior senator from New York, Mrs. Clinton wanted to revoke the diplomatic immunity for scofflaw diplomats who were stationed at the United Nations in New York and had racked up $21.3 million in parking violations. As the Secretary of State, however, she is invoking diplomatic immunity for Mr. Raymond Davis, who is accused of murdering two young men in Lahore.

It is hard to understand Mrs. Clintons logic who on one hand was not willing to excuse foreign diplomats accused of parking violations in New York. The flagrant disregard for parking regulations has had serious ramification for the safety and quality of life for New Yorkers, she argued in a letter in 2002. On the other hand, she would like an American contract worker, who claims to be a diplomat, to be granted immunity from prosecution for murdering two youths.

In 2004, Mrs. Clinton and the senior senator from New York, Charles Schumer, presented a Bill that advocated cutting foreign aid to countries who owed unpaid parking fines to the City of New York. Senator Clinton was obviously incensed by the fact that diplomats were abusing their privilege. Diplomatic immunity was never intended to allow diplomats to violate traffic laws of the host country, or for that matter, commit murders.

She registered her discontent with diplomatic immunity and argued that it was not acceptable for foreign diplomats and consular officials to hide behind diplomatic and consular immunity to park in illegal spaces in New York City and avoid paying parking tickets. It is my hope that this legislation will ensure that the City gets the money that it is owed. Senators Clinton and Schumer were successful in amending the 2005 congressional Foreign Operations Bill in the Senate that froze foreign aid to countries by amounts they owed New York City in parking ticket violations and unpaid property taxes.

I am not suggesting that parking violations could or should be ignored. As a professor of transport management, I understand how illegally parked vehicles impede traffic, cause congestion, and cost billions in lost productivity. In fact, in 2006 when the US Embassy in London racked up over £1 million in unpaid congestion charges, the peeved Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, called the American ambassador Robert Tuttle, who owned a car dealership and raised $200,000 for President George W. Bushs election campaign, a chiselling little crook.

What I do not understand is how can one justify waiving diplomatic immunity for a misdemeanour, i.e., a parking violation, and insist on invoking it for violating the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, for a person whose diplomatic credentials are dubious at best, and whose culpability is beyond doubt.

Granting Mr. Davis diplomatic immunity will deny the judicial system in Pakistan the opportunity to determine the circumstances that lead to the two murders. The courts need to establish if Mr. Davis is indeed a diplomat, and not a contract worker or a mercenary employed by the US consulate in Lahore. The courts need to determine that if Mr. Davis were a diplomat, where was he stationed in the past or what school he attended to prepare for a career in foreign diplomacy. The courts need to ascertain if he indeed was acting in self-defence when he shot the two men riding away on a motorbike through the windshield of his car. The courts need to determine if he indeed was on diplomatic business at the time he shot the two men.

I have spoken with senior Pakistani diplomats in North America who have confirmed that Mr. Davis was issued an official business visa, which is reserved for contractors and lower-level staff serving in foreign missions in Pakistan. This does not make Mr. Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity in the first place. I contacted Ambassador Hussain Haqqani in Washington, DC, to determine the status of Mr. Davis now controversial visa. Mr. Haqqani has chosen not to respond. I have, however, enjoyed better correspondence with Ambassador Haqqani when he was a fellow academic.

While the US has always by default demanded immunity from prosecution for its diplomats serving in foreign countries, she has been stingy in reciprocating the favour. When the shoe is on the other foot, the US administration reacts completely in the opposite. Instead of honouring diplomatic immunity, it pressures countries to waive diplomatic immunity for the diplomats accused of wrongdoings in the United States.

In 1987, a car driven by the ambassador of Papua New Guinea, Kiatro Abisinito, hit four other cars in Washington, DC. The ambassador invoked diplomatic immunity. However, the US Attorneys prepared a criminal case against the ambassador for operating a vehicle while being intoxicated.

Consider the case of Georgian diplomat, Gueorgui Makharadze, who in 1997 killed a 16-year old girl in a fatal traffic accident in the US. The diplomat invoked diplomatic immunity and was ready to leave when the Georgian President, Eduard Shevardnadze, ordered the diplomat to stay in the United States and face criminal charges. Mr. Makharadze was convicted by a court and served time in an American prison.

Pakistan will not be the first country to question the doctrines of diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats have been accused of not just misdemeanours, such as parking violations, but are accused of heinous crimes, such as murder. Former US Secretary of Defense, Caspar Weinberger, pointed out circumstances that warranted limits to the doctrines of diplomatic immunity. While addressing a conference organized by the American Bar Association in June 1986, Mr Weinberger unequivocally declared that a diplomatic title must not confer a license to murder.

Several American legislators have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats were accused of serious crimes, such as murder and rape. In 1984, Senator Arlen Specter presented a Bill to renegotiate the Vienna Convention to eliminate diplomatic immunity for diplomats accused of murder. Later in 1987, US Congressman Stephen J. Solarz introduced a Bill to limit the diplomatic immunity, which he termed untenable and unacceptable to grant to those accused of murder.

While the American public representatives have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity for others, they have fought tooth and nail to seek immunity for their own diplomats when they stood accused of committing serious crimes. There are several examples of American diplomats leaving without trial even after being accused of committing murders. According to New York Times archives, a US Embassy employee, Martha D. Patterson, was accused of complicity in poisoning to death a USSR citizen in July 1977. Ms. Peterson was freed however after she invoked diplomatic immunity. Later in 2002, Samuel Karmilowicz, an employee with the US Embassy in Quito, Ecuador, shot and killed an Ecuadorian national Pablo Jaramillo after crashing his car into the taxi carrying Mr. Jaramillo. The American diplomat left Ecuador soon afterwards invoking diplomatic immunity.

It is however, not without precedent that a country revoked diplomatic immunity for diplomats of other countries. In 1944, England cancelled diplomatic immunity for foreign diplomats and their staff. Only diplomats from the Commonwealth countries, the Soviet Union and the United States were permitted to retain diplomatic immunity.

In 2002 in England, the Colombian Embassy waived diplomatic immunity for a sergeant-major and his son who were caught on CCTV stabbing to death a 23 year old man outside a supermarket in West London. Initially, the Colombian diplomat, who was an assistant to the Colombian military attaché, and his son were granted immunity from prosecution. The Colombians claimed that they acted in self-defence after being mugged by the deceased. The Colombians were however acquitted of murder by a British court after it was established that they indeed acted in self-defence.

It is also not without precedent that the US government has waived immunity for its diplomats or contractors employed by the US foreign missions. In 1995, the US government waived diplomatic immunity for David Duchow, a contract employee with the US embassy in Bolivia, who was accused of stealing a truck-load of fuel. Mr. Duchow in retaliation sued the US government for waiving his diplomatic immunity.

Indulge me for a second and imagine if the situation was reversed and a Pakistani diplomat stood accused of shooting to death two young men in SoHo, New York. Given that Mrs. Clinton was unwilling to pardon diplomats accused of parking violations, it is highly likely that she would have opposed granting immunity to a Pakistani diplomat accused of committing multiple murders in broad daylight and in the presence of dozens of eye witnesses. She would have insisted that the true identity and the status of the accused be first determined. She would have wanted the US courts to determine if the Pakistani diplomat acted in self-defence or was he a trigger-happy fellow who got spooked and started shooting. She would not have allowed the Pakistani diplomat to touch the tarmac at the JFK Airport.

I also wonder how President Obama would react in this situation. Would he be as statesmanlike as the former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze and instruct Mr. Raymond Davis to stay in Pakistan and plead his case in a court of law. Or would Mr. Obama choose to be more like the Russian Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, who refused to waive diplomatic immunity for a Russian diplomat stationed in Canada who in 2001 killed one woman and injured another while driving a car while being intoxicated?

Given Mr. Obamas recent foreign policy choices, I see more of Putin in him than a statesman.

*Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is a professor of supply chain management at Ryerson University in Toronto. *


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## ajay

Why not use a lie detector or good old fashioned electro shock treatment least we will know if Mr davis is telling the truth or not


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## RescueRanger

ajay said:


> Why not use a lie detector or good old fashioned electro shock treatment least we will know if Mr davis is telling the truth or not


 
And give uncle sam the green light to bomb a major city... No thanks!


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## ajay

RescueRanger said:


> And give uncle sam the green light to bomb a major city... No thanks!





You are a sovereign country, yanks cant even bomb N. korea or Iran how they gonna take on Pakistani which has over 100 nukes they would piss their pants.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

ajay said:


> You are a sovereign country, yanks cant even bomb N. korea or Iran how they gonna take on Pakistani which has over 100 nukes they would piss their pants.


 
bombing is a little over exegration but yes there may be a spec op to take this guy out and call him a hero and all that s@*t...


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## ajay

It's a catch 22 situation if he is released you can bet the masses will take to the streets burning US flags and shouting down with zardari on the other hand if he is not sent back it would have wider implications on the 'war on terror'


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## Bilal Akhtar

well i really think zardari will release him...and if he DOES well....


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## JanjaWeed

ajay said:


> It's a catch 22 situation if he is released you can bet the masses will take to the streets burning US flags and shouting down with zardari on the other hand if he is not sent back it would have wider implications on the 'war on terror'


 
they will try n find a middle ground. situation will rumble on for a little while. When the dust settles, RD will be whisked off once every one had their share of spoils!!


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## Bilal Akhtar

zardari should call obama that you ARE EItheR with us or against us...:

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## iPhone

ajay said:


> [video]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1305213/Lynch-mob-killing-Sialkot-video-sparks-mass-demonstrations-Pakistan.html[/video]
> 
> 
> 
> Video of lynch mob killing two teenage brothers sparks mass demonstrations across Pakistan
> 
> 
> Here the Pakistani police are watching while mobs kill the teens and now they crying bout this gora killing 2 robbers lol wtf



First of all, you're only here to troll, you don't deserve a good reply, you only deserve to be flamed back in response.

Second, the police world over, and that includes western countries, has been involved in some sick beatings and tortures of civlians, not to mention racial profilings and killings, however, that does not discredit the police force of a certain country or nation altogether.

Third, contribute something non-inflammatory.

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## SQ8

havent seen one post with this..maybe I missed it..

so posting it here.

Vienna accords

Article 31​*1*.A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.
He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:

(a) A real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State,
unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;

(b) An action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor,
administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;

(c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in
the receiving State outside his official functions.

*2.*A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.
*3.*No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases
coming under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this article, and provided that the
measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.
*4.*The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State_ does not exempt
him from the jurisdiction of the sending State._

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> *4.*The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State_ does not exempt
> him from the jurisdiction of the sending State._



Exactly, which is why Senator Kerry has said RD will face trial in the USA where he is under jurisdiction properly.

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## Leviza

Santro said:


> havent seen one post with this..maybe I missed it..
> 
> so posting it here.
> 
> Vienna accords
> 
> Article 31​*1*.A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.
> He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
> 
> (a) A real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State,
> unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
> 
> (b) An action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor,
> administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;
> 
> (c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in
> the receiving State outside his official functions.
> 
> *2.*A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.
> *3.*No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases
> coming under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this article, and provided that the
> measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.
> *4.*The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State_ does not exempt
> him from the jurisdiction of the sending State._


 
also state the article 41 as well .... you need to read all articles and see them in actual context ... otherwise no use to claim your points and are not justified as well

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## Durrak

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari said the strategic partnership between Pakistan and the United States should not be compromised by predicating it on any single issue.

Senator John Kerry, Chairman of US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called on Zardari here at the Presidency on Wednesday.

Zardari said &#8220;The Davis issue was not as simple as it was sometimes being portrayed&#8221;, according to a statement from presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar.

&#8220;The president termed it is a complex issue with several dimensions and said all of these had to be taken into account for an amicable resolution,&#8221; Babar said.

Zardari also said &#8220;The matter was before the court which has also fixed a date for hearing. Pakistan expects that its judicial processes will be respected.&#8221;

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## Durrak

*The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.*
KARACHI: Documents obtained by DawnNews on Wednesday revealed that Raymond Davis, the US gunman accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, is a permanent employee of the US Overseas Protective Security Services.

The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.

Meanwhile, government authorities have decided to shift the US official to Adiala Jail where his visiting hours will be limited to three hours.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> Isn't it odd that people living outside a country (and i am referring to both Indians & Pakistanis) want their country of origin to take a hardline position which may end up inconveniencing millions but most of them have no qualms in continuing to live in the country/countries that they want a hardline position taken against. Would appreciate their positions more if they marked their protest by chucking everything they have in the "evil" country and turn up to join the protest in their country of origin. People who only want others to sacrifice/risk a lot while being unprepared to inconvenience themselves in the least should be willing to carry the charge of being duplicitous.


This is a patently false argument - if those wanting the GoP to take a hard line position on the Davis issue were not present in significant numbers in Pakistan, the GoP would not be in the position it is now, and would have released Davis without being concerned about any potential political fallout.

The fact that the PPP is trying to find a way to satisfy both the US Government and the Pakistani electorate is indicative of the fact that the sentiments around the Davis case, that you see reflected on this forum by many overseas Pakistanis, are shared by most Pakistanis resident in Pakistan.

Secondly, unless these 'overseas Pakistanis' have no immediate family in Pakistan, any thing that happens in Pakistan stands to have a very strong impact on them through the impact on their immediate families. Our demographic is primarily a younger one - that usually means that the overseas Pakistanis on this forum have parents, siblings and other relatives in Pakistan, and it is rather callous to argue that they care nothing for what happens to their siblings or parents.

This canard of 'overseas Pakistanis' pops up frequently in discussions pushing nationalist Pakistani positions, usually pushed by Indians, and in the future I would appreciate it if this canard is left out of discussions, since all it does is attempt to hijack the discussion away from the actual topic. Focus on the arguments being made, not on who is making them or what their socio-economic background or resident status is.

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## SQ8

Leviza said:


> also state the article 41 as well .... you need to read all articles and see them in actual context ... otherwise no use to claim your points and are not justified as well


 
Article 41​1.Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all persons enjoying such
privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State. They also have a
duty not to interfere in the internal affairs of that State.
2.All official business with the receiving State entrusted to the mission by the sending State shall
be conducted with or through the Ministry for Foreign Affairs of the receiving State or such other
ministry as may be agreed.
3.The premises of the mission must not be used in any manner incompatible with the functions of
the mission as laid down in the present Convention or by other rules of general international law or by
any special agreements in force between the sending and the receiving State.

I am not sure what you meant by scoring points..??I posted the info for ease of members...


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## American Eagle

Hijacking this long drawn out discussion is everyone and anyone who does not understand and believe that Mr. Davis has absolute 100% diplomatic immunity. This said, it was a slow reaction but the Pakistani Foreign Office sent it's official letter to the Court, in response to the court's Order to determine the immunity of Mr. Davis. This new official, only, ever, official FO letter declares Mr. Davis has 100% Diplomatic Immunity. Yet many on this site keep trying to "decide" his fate with their self generated postings. In my time living and working in Pakitan most Pakistanis were too busy trying to eke out a living.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Hijacking this long drawn out discussion is everyone and anyone who does not understand and believe that Mr. Davis has absolute 100% diplomatic immunity. This said, it was a slow reaction but the Pakistani Foreign Office sent it's official letter to the Court, in response to the court's Order to determine the immunity of Mr. Davis. This new official, only, ever, official FO letter declares Mr. Davis has 100% Diplomatic Immunity. Yet many on this site keep trying to "decide" his fate with their self generated postings. In my time living and working in Pakitan most Pakistanis were too busy trying to eke out a living.


 
It hasn't come out publicly and may just be speculation, furthermore, it only confirms that your government is hand in gloves with all the corrupt elements in Pakistan. As first they had Qureshi fired, after he said there's no immunity, then suddenly the next day there's immunity coming from the FO.

You may win the battle through these corrupt means, but you might as well kiss the War oT goodbye... First this corrupt government then all American officials would be chased out of Pakistan.

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## Awesome

YouTube - Shah Mehmood Qureshi Press Conference

How can the FO inform Qureshi that there is no blanket immunity for Davis and now there is immunity (let me remind you the words "100% immunity" has not been used by even the rumored letter news).


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## Cynic Waheed

If FO does produce and court accepts the required documents (however forged they are), then as civilized society we should let the man go and respect the decision. 

Our anger must shift to our internal weaknesses. Davis didn't come here without a visa. Our FO has given him the visa, we should question them on what basis they are granting people like RD visa's? What are their vetting procedures? Where are all our 'competent' and much feared agencies and their input when they clear people like him?

Its good that this incident happened, its brought in the lime light how incompetent our ministeries really are. Police says they were robers and then say it was cold murder. FO has taken one stand and now it appears is begining to lean towards the other. Then we have the likes of Qureshi who only God knows if is telling the truth or playing politics . 

There is so much contradiction in everything that is and has been coming out of these sources. This has played crucial role in creating a mess out of this situation which has feulled the anger of the whole nation. And now am scared of the outcome either way. But hopfully it will give us a chance to ponder on our weaknesses.

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## The HBS Guy

Cynic Waheed said:


> If FO does produce and court accepts the required documents (however forged they are), then as civilized society we should let the man go and respect the decision.
> 
> Our anger must shift to our internal weaknesses. Davis didn't come here without a visa. Our FO has given him the visa, we should question them on what basis they are granting people like RD visa's? What are their vetting procedures? Where are all our 'competent' and much feared agencies and their input when they clear people like him?
> 
> Its good that this incident happened, its brought in the lime light how incompetent our ministeries really are. Police says they were robers and then say it was cold murder. FO has taken one stand and now it appears is begining to lean towards the other. Then we have the likes of Qureshi who god knows is telling the truth or playing politics . There is so much contradiction in everything that comes out of these institutes. This has played crucial role in creating a mess out of this situation which has feulled the anger of the whole nation. And now am scared of the outcome either way. But hopfully it will give us a chance to ponder on our weaknesses.


 
In that case you shall be directing your anger towards the ISI.


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## 9/11donebythemeself

reminds me of mush.mush is a coward he wont go to hishomeland like altaf a parrot of the west ,kerry trying to be good cop haha they will never be able to comprehend us ,i want musharaf to go pakistan and get his just desert's.


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## Cynic Waheed

The HBS Guy said:


> In that case you shall be directing your anger towards the ISI.


 
In case of forgery it would be FO. but yes if ISI indeed provided input in this case and have failed to vet him properly then why not?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> In that case you shall be directing your anger towards the ISI.


 
If RD is a false identity with a matching 'fake' background and history developed by the CIA, then what exactly was the ISI or any other Pakistani agency supposed to do?

Pakistan does not maintain a database of the citizens of other nations to cross-check against to see if identities are real or not - Pakistan would have had to depend upon information provided by the US Government, and at most done a background check in the US through its embassy, which would have come out clean since the identity was set up to be clean.

The Pakistani foreign office did, if multiple reports from multiple sources in the media are to be believed, question the US Embassy about Davis and 9 other men with respect to their functions at the embassy, before granting them diplomatic status as demanded by the US. The US embassy never responded, and did not include Davis in their list of embassy diplomats after that incident, but inserted his name in another list of Embassy diplomats two days after Davis killed the two Pakistani men.

Also keep in mind that Pakistan's military and intelligence had held off on issuing visa's to hordes of US officials for a long time because they did not see what the need was, and the US had started to hold back aid over the issue:



> *Pakistan to grant visas to US officials in 24 hours*​
> Published: Thursday, Nov 25, 2010, 2:05 IST
> By Amir Mir | Place: ISLAMABAD | Agency: DNA
> 
> Under mounting pressure from the US, Islamabad has decided to drastically prune procedures to grant visas to American defence officials. The process, which used to take close to four months earlier, will take just 24 hours now. The Pakistani embassy in Washington has lifted all scrutiny mechanisms for granting visas for US officials.
> 
> This comes in the wake of the US&#8217; intention to take direct control of counter-terror operations in Pakistan as a part of its broader Afghan war strategy.
> 
> *Previously, acting under pressure from the mighty Pakistani military, the government was passing on all applications for visas by US defence officials to the ministry of defence, which in turn used to send them to the directorate of military intelligence. The visas were granted after several months.
> 
> According to media reports here, the new procedures were laid down on the direct intervention of the office of president Asif Ali Zardari to facilitate the Americans in their quest to directly hunt down militant networks in Pakistani cities, where Washington believes major attacks in Europe are being planned and also from where the insurgency in Afghanistan is being directed.*
> 
> The development on visas occurred slightly before this weekend&#8217;s Lisbon summit of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato), where it emerged there was no clear end-game strategy for the mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> The Nato leaders pledged to begin the process of withdrawal and handing over of authority for security to Afghan security forces from 2011, and to transfer complete control by the end of 2014, though they clarified that the date given for shifting authority to the Afghan government was not a deadline.
> 
> Pakistan to grant visas to US officials in 24 hours - World - DNA



The US essentially arm-twisted the GoP into issuing visas to all these officials, which the military and intelligence were rightfully skeptical of, and now the US is using the same tactics to get one of those individuals, who likely would not have been issued a visa, off the hook for murder charges.

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## American Eagle

I support law and order, which means at the outset that one who has, and our US President vouches for him having Diplomatic Immunity has been and continues at this moment to be held illegally.

Digressing, you and some but by no means all others, have presumed Davis guility of a serious crime...when it was the criminals/robbers who tried to stick him up. I of course will never be for anyone trying to make martyrs out of common robbers.

I have the utmost respect, esteem, and goodwill for sweepers who are poorest of the poor but who do their drugery job day in and day out honestly, without blaming anyone or anything for their low status in life. Their children should be funded by the nation for an excellent public education, and these same children of sweepers should get scholarships to cover all the costs, soup to nuts, of then attending the Pakistani college or vocational school of their choice.

And I still have good friendships with Pakistanis from all walks of life both in Pakistan and here in the US, in my immediate neighborhood.

There is no such thing as Blackwater in Pakistan, none whatsoever. There is need inside Pakistan of protection of US Embassy and various US Consular offices where the lines exist every day of Pakistanis wishing to move to the US and have a good life among us. They are most welcome as far as I am concerned as an individual American.

Your support of crime and criminals in the face of all known facts to date merely tells me you are scape goating the reality of the situation wherein Mr. Davis, who said so from the start, has 100% Diplomatic Immunity.

Have a good evening.


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## The HBS Guy

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> If RD is a false identity with a matching 'fake' background and history developed by the CIA, then what exactly was the ISI or any other Pakistani agency supposed to do?
> 
> Pakistan does not maintain a database of the citizens of other nations to cross-check against to see if identities are real or not - Pakistan would have had to depend upon information provided by the US Government, and at most done a background check in the US through its embassy, which would have come out clean since the identity was set up to be clean.
> 
> The Pakistani foreign office did, if multiple reports from multiple sources in the media are to be believed, question the US Embassy about Davis and 9 other men with respect to their functions at the embassy, before granting them diplomatic status as demanded by the US. The US embassy never responded, and did not include Davis in their list of embassy diplomats after that incident, but inserted his name in another list of Embassy diplomats two days after Davis killed the two Pakistani men.
> 
> Also keep in mind that Pakistan's military and intelligence had held off on issuing visa's to hordes of US officials for a long time because they did not see what the need was, and the US had started to hold back aid over the issue:
> 
> 
> 
> The US essentially arm-twisted the GoP into issuing visas to all these officials, which the military and intelligence were rightfully skeptical of, and now the US is using the same tactics to get one of those individuals, who likely would not have been issued a visa, off the hook for murder charges.


 
Is it that big a deal for the US to provide a few documents in the court?

How difficult could it seriously be for the US to prove RD's identity?

I take it as given that it is actually RD's true identity even if it is not. It's not a big ask to prove this in a Pakistani court.

Let's talk beyond that.

It can be proven that it is indeed RD's true identity. 

It can be proven that RD enjoys diplomatic immunity, very easily now that even the Pakistani govt. seems willing to let him go. 

What else is left?

I see RD on his way home within next 15-20 days.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> It hasn't come out publicly and may just be speculation, furthermore, it only confirms that your government is hand in gloves with all the corrupt elements in Pakistan.


How could you possibly arrive at such a sweeping conclusion?


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## American Eagle

> Raymond Davis is a diplomat: Foreign Ministry
> 
> LAHORE: The Foreign Ministry has declared Raymond Allen Davis, an American national who murdered two civilians in Lahore, a US diplomat, a private TV channel reported on Tuesday. In a letter, which it wrote to the Interior Ministry, the Foreign Ministry maintained that Raymond Davis was a diplomat who enjoyed immunity under the Vienna Convention. &#8220;The letter also states that Raymond Davis was appointed as a diplomat in the US Embassy in Islamabad,&#8221; the channel said. daily times monitor



This is a direct copy and paste the Lahore TIMES MONOTOR of Feb. 16, 2011.

Now here is the Wednesday, 16 Feb. 2011 article from the WASHINGTON POST in the US:


Obama raises stakes in Pakistani standoff
By BRADLEY KLAPPER
The Associated Press 
Wednesday, February 16, 2011; 12:23 AM 

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama raised the stakes Tuesday in a tense standoff with Pakistan, insisting that a detained American embassy employee who killed two Pakistanis must be freed and dispatching a high-profile envoy to make the case that Pakistan has much to lose if the case drags on. 

Obama insisted the "simple principle" of diplomatic immunity meant that Pakistan must release the 36-year-old U.S. official, Raymond Allen Davis. Davis has been held since the shootings almost three weeks ago. 
"If it starts being fair game on our ambassadors around the world, including in dangerous places where we may have differences with those governments ... that's untenable," Obama said at a news conference, his first public remarks on the case. "It means they can't do their job. And that's why we respect these conventions and every country should as well." 

The Davis case has become a flashpoint for Pakistani nationalism and anti-American suspicion, making it harder for Pakistani authorities to back down despite intense U.S. pressure. 

Thousands have rallied to demand that Davis be hanged and the Taliban have threatened attacks against Pakistani officials involved in freeing the Virginia native. 

The disagreement has risked spinning out of control in recent days amid dangerous anti-American sentiment in Pakistan and U.S. threats of stronger Pakistan sanctions. Partly as a punishment, the U.S. over the weekend postponed a major security conference that was scheduled with Afghanistan and Pakistan later this month. 

Obama warned that Davis' detention risked further straining relations between the countries, and said local prosecution of a diplomat posed a threat to American diplomacy in general. 


Davis was not an ambassador, but the United States has not spelled out his duties. 

The United States insists that he carries diplomatic immunity from prosecution just as diplomats and embassy employees of other nations do in the United States. 

Obama spoke after sending Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., to smooth over relations with Pakistan, whose cooperation is needed to rout insurgents fighting U.S. troops across the border in Afghanistan and al-Qaida fighters hiding in remote frontier zones. 

Kerry reached out to Pakistan's government, promising a U.S. criminal investigation into the shooting if Davis is released. He took a softer public stance than many in the administration, expressing regret and acknowledging that such deaths need to be examined. 

"It is customary in an incident like this for our government to conduct a criminal investigation. That is our law. And I can give you the full assurance of our government today that that will take place," Kerry told reporters in the eastern city of Lahore, where the shootings occurred. [/QUOTE]


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## Omar1984

If Pakistan releases this so called US "diplomat" then that sends a clear message to the world that anyone who claims to be a diplomat can come to Pakistan kill Pakistani citizens and walk away free.


Sad to see that even in Pakistan, a white man's life is far more precious than a Pakistani man's life. Pakistan says that it has won independence from the engraiz but it still is under control of the engraiz to this day. If Pakistan was a sovereign independent country, it wouldn't have US drones killing Pakistani citizens in Pakistani territory and it wouldnt have Americans killing Pakistanis in broad day light and Americans expecting the American man to walk free after committing murder.

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## r3alist

Omar1984 said:


> If Pakistan releases this so called US "diplomat" then that sends a clear message to the world that anyone who claims to be a diplomat can come to Pakistan kill Pakistani citizens and get away with it.


 

no.

it sends a message to the world that the pak govt. is complicit in facilitating these blackwater goons and whatever destructive missions they carry out.

thats right, the pak govt., as well as elements in the army are complicit in the downfall of the country, wake up.


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> How could you possibly arrive at such a sweeping conclusion?


 
Foreign Minister says: No immunity
Foreign minister fired
New Ministerial set up says, hey there's immunity now

May be thats legal in the US, but not in Pakistan. It will be challenged.

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## Solomon2

Omar1984 said:


> If Pakistan releases this so called US "diplomat" then that sends a clear message to the world that anyone who claims to be a diplomat can come to Pakistan kill Pakistani citizens and get away with it.


If the Pakistanis were attempting armed robbery of the diplomat, isn't that the way it should be? If not, why not?

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## r3alist

Solomon2 said:


> If the Pakistanis were attempting armed robbery of the diplomat, isn't that the way it should be? If not, why not?



he was not a diplomat, he was quite clearly a trained killer, thug and agitator.


you americans just happen to call these guys diplomats.


is it any wonder the iraqi;s and afghans wanted these lunatics out, yet the us deems them critical.

tells me all i need to know.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> Foreign Minister says: No immunity


Uh-uh. He didn't say _no_ immunity. He said no "blanket" immunity - meaning Davis had the weaker, "consular" type. Yet even if the former FO isn't fibbing, since the circumstances make it clear that the "grave crime" of murder was NOT committed (only manslaughter at most) that would mean that even under consular immunity Davis can't be arrested while an investigation or prosecution is in progress. 



> ...hey there's immunity now. May be thats legal in the US, but not in Pakistan.


I think you're right that in the U.S. if a similar situation occurred full diplomatic immunity would be extended to the offending diplomat. He might not even be kicked out of the U.S. (But if a Pakistani consular officer tried that today or tomorrow I doubt such courtesy would be extended.)


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## The HBS Guy

Asim Aquil said:


> It will be challenged.


 
That's immaterial. In case of diplomatic immunity, courts have no say. None whatsoever. 

If the FO says he has diplomatic immunity, the court cannot do anything. ANYTHING.

That's how diplomatic immunity works. You might not like it, but that's how it works.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The HBS Guy said:


> Is it that big a deal for the US to provide a few documents in the court?
> 
> How difficult could it seriously be for the US to prove RD's identity?
> 
> I take it as given that it is actually RD's true identity even if it is not. It's not a big ask to prove this in a Pakistani court.
> 
> Let's talk beyond that.
> 
> It can be proven that it is indeed RD's true identity.
> 
> It can be proven that RD enjoys diplomatic immunity, very easily now that even the Pakistani govt. seems willing to let him go.
> 
> What else is left?
> 
> I see RD on his way home within next 15-20 days.


 
That is irrelevant to the point you were making, and I argued against, in the post I responded to - of blaming the ISI or some other Pakistani agency for issuing a visa to Davis.

Since you admit that the US can fabricate the necessary documentation to establish whatever it needs with respect to its officials, then you are in fact agreeing with me that no Pakistani agency could have determined what Davis's true identity was. What they could have done they were doing - asking for details ( in the context of what their functions were to be as part of the US embassy) and granting diplomatic status based on that, and earlier refusing visas outright, until the US arm-twisted Zardari into issuing them.

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## pakdefender

Here are latest facts 

- during the murder investigation Raymond Davis refused to co-operate with the police , instead he tried to get up from his chair and tried to leave the room , his this behaviour shows the total disregard him and his American colleagues have with regards to the due process

- the leaked documents show Raymond Davis has a 200,000 USD contract , which indicates that by all means this guy falls in the same category as backwater operatives

- the Americans , through their crony Zardari , have gotten then foreign minster of Pakistan Shah Mahmood Qureshi sacked , they have now gotten the Foreign Office spokesperson Abdul Basit sacked and replaced.

- The police investigation has confirmed the act committed by the American gunman was an act of cold blooded murder

- The ex-Foreign minister had made it very clear that this murder does not have unlimited diplomatic immunity.


This is clear cut case of murder in the first degree, obstruction of justice , possession of illegal fire arms , espionage , failure to co-operate with the local investigators and on top of al this miss use of the diplomatic immunity clause of the Vienna convention.

There is NO way that this guy should be let off, justice must take its course and if the family of the deceased demand that the law of 'Qisas' be applied and they seek the termination of Raymond Davis then that must happen.

There is another thing that can and should come out of this and that is the illegal removal of the Foreign Minster and now the FO spokesperson. 

The removal of the Chief justice of Pakistan sparked a wakening in the Lawyer community and they rallied to save their institution there is need of the same to be done by foreign office employees to save their institution from being destroyed by corrupt forces being supported by the united states of America.


In all this the most interesting thing is that NONE of the main US TV networks are giving any converge to this event that leads us to the follows

- the claim that western press is free and fair and blah blah is just bull 
- The American government has a lot to hide in this case
- Should this case come to light in the US media, there will be questions and the US Gov will be hard pressed by the taxpayer to justify the paying 200,000 USD to gun totting murderous mercenaries while at home many new college graduates are job less and under debt.
- Reading some of the comments from US citizen on the blogs and forums it seem clear that close to 40-45% percent share the same suspicion about the activities of this Raymond Davis as have been expressed by ordinary Pakistanis.
- The most vehement supporters (and liars) in this case are the ex-Mil personal who have huge stake in the mercenary industry that took shape in the Bush era and also the powerful and the corrupt US officials who take their cut from the payouts to these mercenaries. 


One can safely conclude that Pakistan is in a much stronger position in this case and we must not give in to US pressure , we know that people are like Zaradi and Fauzia wahab are sell outs , coming of this they will have more egg on their face them before.

This murderer should not see the light of day out side of prison ever again, or better would be that he closes his eyes forever and then he can be repatriated to the US , as the Americans desire.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Uh-uh. He didn't say _no_ immunity. He said no "blanket" immunity - meaning Davis had the weaker, "consular" type. Yet even if the former FO isn't fibbing, since the circumstances make it clear that the "grave crime" of murder was NOT committed (only manslaughter at most) that would mean that even under consular immunity Davis can't be arrested while an investigation or prosecution is in progress.


Now it is you who is making 'sweeping statements' - the charges filed against Davis so far indicate 'cold blooded murder'. If you are going to cherry pick statements from the press and build a case supporting your own POV, why accuse others of 'speculating and making sweeping statements'?


> I think you're right that in the U.S. if a similar situation occurred full diplomatic immunity would be extended to the offending diplomat. He might not even be kicked out of the U.S. (But if a Pakistani consular officer tried that today or tomorrow I doubt such courtesy would be extended.)


 The US rules concerning crimes by diplomats (posted earlier) make clear that the US expects US LEA's to use the prescribed diplomatic identification and confirmation from the State Department before accepting diplomatic immunity, and even if immunity is established, encourages a full investigation and if necessary charges against the diplomat whose immunity the US will attempt to have waived from the accused individuals home nation.

Of course in this case it is immunity itself which is in question.


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## The HBS Guy

The focus now shifts to Pakistani FO/FM. 

If they say that RD has diplomatic immunity. The game's over. RD heads back home. 

If they say the RD doesn't have diplomatic immunity, then US shall find other ways of getting him out.


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## Solomon2

r3alist said:


> he was not a diplomat, he was quite clearly a trained killer, thug and agitator. you americans just happen to call these guys diplomats.


Many, many diplomats world-wide fit your description: "a trained killer, thug and agitator." By what right do you claim Pakistan deserves a pass to exclude such people that every other nation has to put up with?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

American Eagle said:


> Your support of crime and criminals in the face of all known facts to date merely tells me you are scape goating the reality of the situation wherein Mr. Davis, who said so from the start, has 100% Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Have a good evening.


Completely unnecessary. Just because many Pakistanis have a different opinion of how events have unfolded does not make them 'supporters of crime and criminals'.

Please remain civil in your discourse and stop denigrating those who disagree with your POV. As I have pointed out before, limit your comments to the events and the individuals involved in the events. You believe Davis has complete immunity and acted in self-defence against two criminals trying to rob him, that is your right. But it is not acceptable for you to malign and smear Pakistanis disagreeing with you.

Make your case and arguments as best you can, and refute the other side's arguments as best you can, but refrain from comments such as those in the above quoted post.

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## pakdefender

Solomon2 said:


> *Many, many diplomats world-wide fit your description: "a trained killer, thug and agitator." *By what right do you claim Pakistan deserves a pass to exclude such people that every other nation has to put up with?


 
if you admit that the 'diplomitc immunity' clause gives cover to 'trained killer, thug and agitator' then all the more reson that this law needs to changed and raymond davis must be prosecuted for murder


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## Solomon2

pakdefender said:


> Here are latest facts
> 
> - during the murder investigation Raymond Davis refused to co-operate with the police , instead he tried to get up from his chair and tried to leave the room , his this behaviour shows the total disregard him and his American colleagues have with regards to the due process


Umm, no. That's exactly how I'd expect someone with diplomatic immunity to behave. He's only supposed to be in a police station of his own free will and can't be held even for questioning.



> - the leaked documents show Raymond Davis has a 200,000 USD contract , which indicates that by all means this guy falls in the same category as backwater operatives


Not all diplomats are on government payrolls, they need only be contractors or even unpaid temporary personnel.



> - the Americans , through their crony Zardari , have gotten then foreign minster of Pakistan Shah Mahmood Qureshi sacked , they have now gotten the Foreign Office spokesperson Abdul Basit sacked and replaced.


I think this is a problem with how Pakistanis' brains operate, always thinking that if some change happens the U.S. is behind it. Did the U.S. tell you what tie to put on this morning, too?



> - The police investigation has confirmed the act committed by the American gunman was an act of cold blooded murder


This conflicts with the initial report from police on the scene - and I did not read of any factual backup for the "cold blooded murder" claim. I conclude that high-ranking police officials are covering their , trying to justify their attitude of keeping Davis locked up. That Davis should never have been arrested in the first place, or should have been released as soon as his status was confirmed, is no longer in doubt.


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## American Eagle

An awful lot of words being thrown into the mix here when the facts and requirements of International Law are simple and the same in all, repeat all, nations, not just in the US or Pakistan:

1. Mr. Davis has Diplomtic Immunity from the US Embasy in Islamabad.

2. He has been illegally arrested and detached as no, repeat no, court of local jurisdiction nor any other court in Pakistan can supercede Internation Law...Diplomatic Immunity.

There are some real "tales" in this overlong Thread which if woven togethere create a montage of a spy thriller that might be published by a Pakistani or even an American paperback publishers. 

Meanwhile, Mr. Davis faced attempted robbery, defended himself, and is entitled and does and has had since this tour of duty in Pakistan and through June 2012...has Diplomatic Immunity.

Try focusing on the robbers, the stolen items, being many, on their persons when the Police checked them out.

No one is saying here that anyone's death is a welcome or wanted thing. The death outcome for the two robbers is unfortunte. But, it is hard to define the two robbers as honorable and innocent citizens when you go over the long list of stolen items in their possession at the time of this most unfortunate event.

Cart before the horse says you start and end with Diplomatic Immunity. 

To keep ruminating otherwise is wasting time. The people of Pakistan need all help possible from the USA from the level of a sweeper up to the fanciest stake holders in Pakistani society. As this was attempted robbery you have to settle for diplomatic immunity for the put upon Mr. Davis.


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## Solomon2

pakdefender said:


> if you admit that the 'diplomitc immunity' clause gives cover to 'trained killer, thug and agitator' then all the more reson that this law needs to changed.


Good luck with that: you can pester your government to change its terms of acceptance of diplomatic treaties to insist that an ambassador not have any protection from thugs but his own saintly aura.


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## American Eagle

The below quote is from another poster on this Thread today...
poster was Leviza and can be found at page identified in upper right hand corner as # 3287


> havent seen one post with this..maybe I missed it..
> 
> so posting it here.
> 
> Vienna accords
> 
> Article 31
> 1.A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.
> He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
> 
> (a) A real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State,
> unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
> 
> (b) An action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor,
> administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;
> 
> (c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in
> the receiving State outside his official functions.
> 
> 2.A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.
> 
> 3.No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases
> coming under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this article, and provided that the
> measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.
> 
> 4.The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State does not exempt
> him from the jurisdiction of the sending State.


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## Hammy007

American Eagle said:


> An awful lot of words being thrown into the mix here when the facts and requirements of International Law are simple and the same in all, repeat all, nations, not just in the US or Pakistan:
> 
> 1. Mr. Davis has Diplomtic Immunity from the US Embasy in Islamabad.
> 
> 2. He has been illegally arrested and detached as no, repeat no, court of local jurisdiction nor any other court in Pakistan can supercede Internation Law...Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> There are some real "tales" in this overlong Thread which if woven togethere create a montage of a spy thriller that might be published by a Pakistani or even an American paperback publishers.
> 
> Meanwhile, Mr. Davis faced attempted robbery, defended himself, and is entitled and does and has had since this tour of duty in Pakistan and through June 2012...has Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> Try focusing on the robbers, the stolen items, being many, on their persons when the Police checked them out.
> 
> No one is saying here that anyone's death is a welcome or wanted thing. The death outcome for the two robbers is unfortunte. But, it is hard to define the two robbers as honorable and innocent citizens when you go over the long list of stolen items in their possession at the time of this most unfortunate event.
> 
> Cart before the horse says you start and end with Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> To keep ruminating otherwise is wasting time. The people of Pakistan need all help possible from the USA from the level of a sweeper up to the fanciest stake holders in Pakistani society. As this was attempted robbery you have to settle for diplomatic immunity for the put upon Mr. Davis.


 
thats not facts thats what americans believe.... he has no diplomatic visa but this problem will be solved through bribes and threats which your country is good at


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## r3alist

Solomon2 said:


> Many, many diplomats world-wide fit your description: "a trained killer, thug and agitator." By what right do you claim Pakistan deserves a pass to exclude such people that every other nation has to put up with?


 
I have no idea what you are on about, and you probably do not as well, since you have no means to verify what you say.

The technicalities of his status are banal, from all the evidence he is an enemy of Pakistan, and so are his supporters.

I pray a movement starts where we boot out his ilk.

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## Omar1984

*Davis flies into fury on prayer call*

By: Jam Sajjad Hussain

LAHORE &#8211; The inmates facing murder charges invariably display quite caution. American killer Raymond Davis, however, is a different species. Undeterred by the implications of his case, he lives in the jail the way he wants to. 

Davis doesn&#8217;t like to be disturbed in any manner whatsoever. Even Azaan, the prayer call, comes as a source of disturbance for him. And distressing is the disclosure that the loudspeakers in the jail were muted when Davis complained about the prayer call Monday morning. 

Davis lodged a protest with the jail authorities on &#8220;being disturbed by the morning prayer call&#8221;. 

&#8220;He started shouting in a quite savage manner in the wee hours when the Azaan was in progress and the prisoners were waking up for the prayers,&#8221; said a prisoner requesting not to be named. 

The inmate said that Davis started shouting, &#8220;Shut the louder or I will raise the matter with the (US) Consulate.&#8221; 

&#8220;Surprisingly, jail officials shut the loudspeaker. It prompted the other prisoners to protest. In return, the officials switched the speaker back on,&#8221; said the inmate. 

*An official of the Kot Lakhpat Jail, pseudonym Bholi Shah, said Davis had started huffing and puffing on hearing the Friday prayer call on his first day in jail.* 

*&#8220;Seeing four prisoners offering Asr prayers in the corridor of their barrack, Davis started grumbling in a derogatory way,&#8221; said Shah.*

Pak1stanFirst-Davis flies into fury on prayer call | Latest News


The enemies of Islam can not stand the sound of Azaan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




*Will Lahore Jail Charge Raymond Davis with Blasphemy*

Mr. &#8220;Raymond Davis&#8221; really doesn&#8217;t know where he is. He doesn&#8217;t realize that he is in jail. He has not come to the terms with the facts that he is in Pakistan and that he is not above the law. He is obviously very agitated and frustrated at being locked up in Pakistan. In a very strange incident the double-murderer began cursing out at the morning &#8220;Azaan&#8220;. In a bizarre incident he lodged a protest with the jail authorities on &#8220;being disturbed by the morning prayer call.&#8221; To &#8220;Davis&#8221; chagrin loudspeakers were briefly muted and then turned back on. His frustrations is now getting the better of him. &#8220;He started shouting in a quite savage manner in the wee hours when the Azaan was in progress and the prisoners were waking up for the prayers,&#8221; said a prisoner, who requested not to be named. Another jail officer claimed that the US official also abused Jail Superintendent Mian Mushtaq Awan, who was trying to pacify him. &#8220;You all are bloody bastards. How dare you wake me without my permission? Now get lost,&#8221; Davis swore at them. This would get him into trouble with the jail authorities.

One of the inmates at the Kot Lakpat jail informed reporters that Davis started shouting: &#8220;Shut the louder or I will raise the matter with the (US) Consulate.&#8221; A Kot Lakhpat Jail official said that &#8220;Ramond Davis&#8221; had started huffing and puffing on hearing the Friday prayer call on his first day in that jail. He had to be calmed down.

&#8220;Seeing four prisoners offering Asr prayers in the corridor of their barrack, Davis started grumbling in a derogatory way,&#8221; he added. This behaviour of course is blasphemy which carries a death sentence in Pakistan&#8211;immunity or no immunity.

Initially, Davis, who is facing murder charges, misbehaved with Awan&#8217;s subordinates when they woke him up for breakfast around 8am. The officer said that he had just woken Davis up to tell him that some senior officers, transferred from other jails for the special duty, had brought him breakfast, but he flew into a rage. Senior officials tried to calm him down. But, instead of cooling down, Davis shouted in reply: &#8220;You uncivilised fools don&#8217;t even make good servants. Is this the method to serve?&#8221;

On being informed, Jail Superintendent Awan arrived within no time and tried his best to placate Davis, who abused him also, saying: &#8220;I am saying you should go now, bastard.&#8221; The officer said that though the senior officers could understand what Davis was saying, they asked Awan, who tried to downplay it, saying: &#8220;Davis was using meaningless slang.&#8221;

The other prisoners, who continue to face acute shortage of basic necessities in the Kot Lakhpat Jail, say that they see the imprisoned US official&#8217; behaviour as highly intolerable. He may have dug his grave because of his hubris.

http://www.islamabadglobe.com/?p=31620

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## CardSharp

Wow the guy is not helping his case by acting like a jackass.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Solomon2 said:


> Good luck with that: you can pester your government to change its terms of acceptance of diplomatic treaties to insist that an *ambassador* not have any protection from thugs but his own saintly aura.


 
Ok now the azzhole is being reffered to as an ambassador ... mindblowing .. !
The fact is , hes not even a Diplomat and his immunity is now being engineered, how come the US can change its image if it dosent supports the very laws which it dictates the politicians of pakistan to follow .
He was a spy being tracked and the azzhole killed those men when he was unable to shake off his tail... !
BTW what could be be the max punishement if hes proven a diplomat and then sent to US for his trial there , i m pretty sure he wont even be tried there. No matter what the guy wont enjoy such support when hel ultimately appear before GOD on the day of ressurection, If you do bad and get away with it,GOD does make sure ,it eaqualls out in the end.


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## VCheng

Not that those posting abusive rhetoric would take this word of advice, but please at least consider toning your language down. It brings nothing but disgrace for those so indulging.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

VCheng said:


> Not that those posting abusive rhetoric would take this word of advice, but please at least consider toning your language down. It brings nothing but disgrace for those so indulging.


 
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be&#8212;or to be indistinguishable from&#8212;self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." 
&#8212; Neal Stephenson (Cryptonomicon)


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## American Eagle

This statement was a civil reponse to prior posters who used curse words openly on and in this good forum.

Please consider objectivity in that I gave the answer which does represent many Westerners view on this topic. It is civil, especially in the face of personall denigrated and cussed at in this forum...and I have never and will never respond in kind. My response was civil, poplite, and factual. Why would good people who don't know or care about the facts regarding Diplomat Immunity be allowed to continully post curse word statements when the focus is Diplomatic Immunity but they seem to want to try the case here on the Internete and some even call for Mr. Davis to be lynched forthwith?

I do request you understand my tone is and will continue to be civil. I am dealing with International Law which are a fact based disucssion not random shots uncalled for as I am receiving here.

Thanks.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

American Eagle said:


> This statement was a civil reponse to prior posters who used curse words openly on and in this good forum.
> 
> Please consider objectivity in that I gave the answer which does represent many Westerners view on this topic. It is civil, especially in the face of personall denigrated and cussed at in this forum...and I have never and will never respond in kind. My response was civil, poplite, and factual. Why would good people who don't know or care about the facts regarding Diplomat Immunity be allowed to continully post curse word statements when the focus is Diplomatic Immunity but they seem to want to try the case here on the Internete and some even call for Mr. Davis to be lynched forthwith?
> 
> I do request you understand my tone is and will continue to be civil. I am dealing with International Law which are a fact based disucssion not random shots uncalled for as I am receiving here.
> 
> Thanks.


 
He dosnt have an immunity, Counslate staff can get away with minor crimes But Murdering two innocent people out of cold blood cannot simply be let go under the blanket of slightest of immunity whatsoever....!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Refrain from using swear words and abuse please.

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## pakdefender

Americans are not really known to respect international law , infact america is a 'convicted criminal' as far as the international court of justice is concrened.

Here is the full ruling of the case of US diplomats being involved in the support of paramilitary activities against the democratically elected government of Nicaragua 

International Court of Justice 

The court ruled the US to be guilty , so the precedent says that amercans have a criminal record when it comes to international norms and laws

You can read about it here also

Nicaragua v. United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> The Court found in its verdict that the United States was "in breach of its obligations under customary international law not to use force against another State", "not to intervene in its affairs", "not to violate its sovereignty", "not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce", and "in breach of its obligations under Article XIX of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956."

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## Thomas

Ak-47A said:


> *The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.*
> KARACHI: Documents obtained by DawnNews on Wednesday revealed that Raymond Davis, the US gunman accused of killing two Pakistanis in Lahore, is a permanent employee of the US Overseas Protective Security Services.
> 
> The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.
> 
> Meanwhile, government authorities have decided to shift the US official to Adiala Jail where his visiting hours will be limited to three hours.




Sorry but anyone familar with Government pay codes and invoicing will tell you that what is shown is fake.


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## American Eagle

Perhaps some writers/readers on this good PDF site might want to check out the latest issue of THE ECONOMIST, Magazine, for dates of February 5-11, 2011. EGYPT RISES UP is on the cover with a Cairo demostrators photo on cover.

If you will go to the ASIA Section of the magazine, paper copy of the magazine see page 55. There you will find the following objectively written article of the current issue of the robbers vs. Raymond Allen.

Article is: BANYAN - Loss and riss management

sub-heading over a photo is: A new setback in the accident -prone alliance between Pakistan and America

For those who don't care to look up the article here are the first, a middle, and the last two paragraphs of this article:


> FIRST PARAGRAPH: Conspiracies are popular in Pakistan, especially those involving America. When an American, Raymond Davis, was arrested for murder after the shooting two people on January 27th in traffic in the city of Lahore, many Pakistanis at once suspected the worse. The more that has leaded out about the case, the more their suspicions have seemed justified, and the more serious the damage to a "strategic partnership" vital to both countries. It will be mended - it always si, somehow - but not quicky, and not by Mr. Davis's early release.
> 
> MIDDLE OF ARTICLE RANDOM PARAGRAPH: The belief that America is callous about Pakistani lives and hostile towards Islam is the result of five decades of resentment. Pakistan has felt let down by America's failure to back it in its wars against INdia, and abandoned when, after helping Pakistan fule the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan in the 1980s, America turned its attention elsewhere. America's recent courtship of Kindai and the favours it has bestowed on it have renewed Pakistanis' sense of betrayal. Teligious parties depicted the fist Gulf war and the invasion of Iraq as attacks on Islam. Pakistani Pushtuns see the war in Afghanistan as being waged against ethnic, as well as religious, brothers.
> 
> LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS: With strategic partners like these...It also helps bankroll an army stretched by flood-relief work, continused vigilance on the eastern border with INdia and fighting with Islamist extremists in the tribal areas in the north-west. Some 1.2M people remain displaced by that conflict. An insurgency simmers in Balcohistan. Acrosss the country, religious and sectarian violence claims lives daily.
> 
> Yet America needs Pakistan as much. It continues to press he army to campaign in Northern Waziristan, one of the tribal areas, against militans using it as a base for operations in Afghanistan. And the worst fear haunting the West in Afghanistan is that the war will end not just in defeat in that benighted land of 30M people, but also in the radicalisation of Pakistan, with 190M and a nuclear arsenal said to be apporaching 100 warheads. Much as they dislike it, America and Pakistan are stuck with each other.



Let me be clear that I do not endorse some of the above articles opinions and views, but am opened minded enough not to fear posting public articles which I partially agree with, and which I likewise partially disagree with.

As an aside, if you will do a search on the Internet vesion of THE ECONOMIST MAGAZINE using my name, which I don't mind giving out, GEORGE SINGLETON, Colonel, USAF, Retired, you will find a positive article about US helping Pakistan at the time of the last great flood in the NW part of Pakistan wherein the US provided a great deal of help using our overseas in place in Aghanistan and Iraq armed forces, tents, and related equipment, particularly clean water processing equipment. The US has then, and again currently, now been doing the same and operates several free medical clinics manned by our military doctors and nurses to help any and all the people of the latest flooding there.

My mention of water processing equipment is especially critical to health and well being of flood ravaged parts of Pakistan, down country, where cholera is already a problem which the Government of Pakistan in and of itself seems unable to handle on a solo basis.

I wouldn't as a rational American citizen ever accuse our President, our Secretary of State, nor our US Ambassador to Pakistan of lying about anything under discussion in this PDF Thread. You can harbor for your own personal reasons bitterness and not trust anybody you choose not to trust, but I certainly disagree with you...but the above citation is part of the formal factual point of view of America as just laid out by me from anothers posting herein of Article 31. Article 31 is the specific Article that applies to the Davis scenario, via our US Department of State, to the Government of Pakistan and to the Pakistani Foreign Office within the GOP.

Your very bold assertions are your business, but have no basis in fact regarding the citation of what International Law says as regards the Davis scenario.


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## Thomas

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> He dosnt have an immunity, Counslate staff can get away with minor crimes But Murdering two innocent people out of cold blood cannot simply be let go under the blanket of slightest of immunity whatsoever....!



Which highlights the crux of the problem. the U.S. views the two as robbers and most Pakistani's do not. Despite the evidence collected from them.


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## Omar1984

Thomas said:


> Which highlights the crux of the problem. the U.S. views the two as robbers and most Pakistani's do not. Despite the evidence collected from them.


 
And how was the American acting in self defence when its proven that the two Pakistanis didnt even have bullets in their guns and were shot in their backs by the American while trying to flee.


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## Omar1984




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## American Eagle

I repeat what I wrote earlier today. I respect and believe what our US President, our US Secretary of State, and our US Ambassasdor have said that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity. This fact is borne out as in agreed to by the Pakistani Foreign Officer letter to the Pakistani Interior Minister who in turn one presumes will share this information with Mr. Davis and with the Pakistani court involved.

It may be fun for some to fantasize about evil scenarios but there are crimes attempted all over the world where the robbers sometimes end up being killed by the person put upon resisting their robbery attempt. This is a clear cut case of such an example, if anyone will focus on the findings on the first Paksitani Police Report.

The definition of a robber is to be found with stolen goods on your person or in your possession. This is and was the case of both failed robbers who took on Mr. Davis.

It serves no useful purpose to get into more details, some of which are very suspect to try to railroad Mr. Davis, so I will go no further.

The only thing that matters now, initially, is the fact that the FO now admits in writing that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity, 100% immunity, as do all overseas US State Dept. employees of all sorts and types.


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## Thomas

Omar1984 said:


> And how was the American acting in self defence when its proven that the two Pakistanis didnt even have bullets in their guns and were shot in their backs by the American while trying to flee.



if someone points a gun at a policeman does that policeman have a right to assume his life is in danger? or does he need to wait to see if the gun has a round chambered or for that matter wait till they fire at him? and if the guns are automatics how exactly are you going to determine that?

they wouldn't be the first robbers to use guns even if they had no intention of using them. Most people would simply give them what they wanted assuming the guns were loaded and chambered. Thier problem was they chose the wrong target to rob. They probably figured they had a nice target based on the vehicle he was driving. 

As far as the bullet wounds what took place wasn't some long drawn out situation. everything happened in a matter of seconds. Davis was threatened he started to fire striking both assialants with 4 rounds each. it doesn't matter if they started to retreat after the shooting started. In the same situation I would have continued to shoot till I felt that each one was no longer a threat. Which means they are on the ground and no longer moving. 

What I would like to know is why People continue to ignore all the money, cell phones, purses, and satchel they had on them? Originally it was claimed by the families that thr pistols were legally registered. Then we find out they were illegal weapons and the family was not telling the truth. Yet everyone chooses to ignore this since it would lend credence to them being robbers. The police in the beginning said that the two were most likely robbers. Then suddenly that changes once the politics (both national and provincial) and emotions start go into full gear.

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## Developereo

*What's in that cell phone?*

The two alleged robbers were found with five cell phones, presumably stolen. They approached Davis, again presumably demanding his cell phone and he refused, rather forcefully. Now the US wants Davis and his belongings, includnig the cellphone, returned to US custory.

We already know his cell phone had some 'unusual' photos, and he called some rather interesting numbers in Waziristan.

What else is on that cell phone?

Why does the US want that phone so badly?


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## Awesome

Raymond Davis case is starting off right now... The first thing they'll be hearing is the immunity petitions from the US embassy and then the petitions for the murder charges, fake identity charges. I hope the FO doesn't eff this up.


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## CardSharp

American Eagle said:


> This statement was a civil reponse to prior posters who used curse words openly on and in this good forum.
> 
> Please consider objectivity in that I gave the answer which does represent many Westerners view on this topic. It is civil, especially in the face of personall denigrated and cussed at in this forum...and I have never and will never respond in kind. My response was civil, poplite, and factual. Why would good people who don't know or care about the facts regarding Diplomat Immunity be allowed to continully post curse word statements when the focus is Diplomatic Immunity but they seem to want to try the case here on the Internete and some even call for Mr. Davis to be lynched forthwith?
> 
> I do request you understand my tone is and will continue to be civil. I am dealing with International Law which are a fact based disucssion not random shots uncalled for as I am receiving here.
> 
> Thanks.


 
I'm sorry but in my part of the world if you said &#8220;_You uncivilised fools don&#8217;t even make good servants_.&#8221;, you get called what I called him.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think if this guy gets away that truely means that the freedom that we call freedom is just an illusion but we are still slaves to outsiders

The guy should be punished , and he should spend time in life in prison or hanged till death

I think Pakistan will errupt in iran like revolution if this guy gets away clean handed as for US embassy , well ehem that will be moved back as well

Diplomats don't run , around as Spies killing citizens of Pakistan


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## Areesh

> WASHINGTON: *Some muscular coercion, a muffled apology, and an additional few hundred million dollars in aid appears to have paved way for a momentary resolution between United States and Pakistan of the Raymond Davis affair that is even now threatening to derail ties between the mutually mistrustful allies.*
> 
> The modalities of how Davis, the "Diplomat," will be freed are being worked out.
> 
> The big question haunting Washington and Islamabad is whether the outburst will assume the proportions of the upheaval in Tunisia and Egypt and consume the weak government in Islamabad, bringing to power Islamist forces and jeopardizing US operations in Afghanistan. The US is expected to argue its case for Davis' immunity and release at a hearing Thursday at Lahore HC after the Pakistani government formally indicated that it had determined he enjoyed immunity.
> 
> The Pakistani softening came after US President Barack Obama and senator John Kerry played the good cop-bad cop routine. In a White House press conference, Obama left no doubt that the US will use every instrument of power and pressure to force Islamabad to release Davis, who he described as "our diplomat in Pakistan."



Davis all set to walk free as US prez pulls strings


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## jahangeer yousaf

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think if this guy gets away that truely means that the freedom that we call freedom is just an illusion but we are still slaves to outsiders
> 
> The guy should be punished , and he should spend time in life in prison or hanged till death
> 
> I think Pakistan will errupt in iran like revolution if this guy gets away clean handed as for US embassy , well ehem that will be moved back as well
> 
> Diplomats don't run , around as Spies killing citizens of Pakistan


 
you still in a doubt that we are free nation ........ come on come outta illusion ....... we may have got freedom physically but mentally we are slave ......


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## jahangeer yousaf

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think if this guy gets away that truely means that the freedom that we call freedom is just an illusion but we are still slaves to outsiders
> 
> The guy should be punished , and he should spend time in life in prison or hanged till death
> 
> I think Pakistan will errupt in iran like revolution if this guy gets away clean handed as for US embassy , well ehem that will be moved back as well
> 
> Diplomats don't run , around as Spies killing citizens of Pakistan


 
for instance look at your avatar no offence ..........


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## CardSharp

Thomas said:


> if someone points a gun at a policeman does that policeman have a right to assume his life is in danger? or does he need to wait to see if the gun has a round chambered or for that matter wait till they fire at him? and if the guns are automatics how exactly are you going to determine that?
> 
> they wouldn't be the first robbers to use guns even if they had no intention of using them. Most people would simply give them what they wanted assuming the guns were loaded and chambered. Thier problem was they chose the wrong target to rob. They probably figured they had a nice target based on the vehicle he was driving.
> 
> As far as the bullet wounds what took place wasn't some long drawn out situation. everything happened in a matter of seconds. Davis was threatened he started to fire striking both assialants with 4 rounds each. it doesn't matter if they started to retreat after the shooting started. In the same situation I would have continued to shoot till I felt that each one was no longer a threat. Which means they are on the ground and no longer moving.
> 
> What I would like to know is why People continue to ignore all the money, cell phones, purses, and satchel they had on them? Originally it was claimed by the families that thr pistols were legally registered. Then we find out they were illegal weapons and the family was not telling the truth. Yet everyone chooses to ignore this since it would lend credence to them being robbers. The police in the beginning said that the two were most likely robbers. Then suddenly that changes once the politics (both national and provincial) and emotions start go into full gear.


 
Sorry but that's not what's important here. What is important is that the physical evidence doesn't match his testimony. That alone would make most investigators stateside suspicious of his story. 



> Mr Davis's claim that one of the motorbike riders had approached his car window, cocked his gun and pointed it at him.
> 
> And tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazine of the men's gun, not the chamber.



BBC News - US man Raymond Davis shot Pakistan pair &#039;in cold blood&#039;

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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This is a patently false argument - if those wanting the GoP to take a hard line position on the Davis issue were not present in significant numbers in Pakistan, the GoP would not be in the position it is now, and would have released Davis without being concerned about any potential political fallout.
> 
> The fact that the PPP is trying to find a way to satisfy both the US Government and the Pakistani electorate is indicative of the fact that the sentiments around the Davis case, that you see reflected on this forum by many overseas Pakistanis, are shared by most Pakistanis resident in Pakistan.
> 
> Secondly, unless these 'overseas Pakistanis' have no immediate family in Pakistan, any thing that happens in Pakistan stands to have a very strong impact on them through the impact on their immediate families. Our demographic is primarily a younger one - that usually means that the overseas Pakistanis on this forum have parents, siblings and other relatives in Pakistan, and it is rather callous to argue that they care nothing for what happens to their siblings or parents.
> 
> This canard of 'overseas Pakistanis' pops up frequently in discussions pushing nationalist Pakistani positions, usually pushed by Indians, and in the future I would appreciate it if this canard is left out of discussions, since all it does is attempt to hijack the discussion away from the actual topic. Focus on the arguments being made, not on who is making them or what their socio-economic background or resident status is.


 
I was referring to extreme positions taken by some Pakistanis who live in the west. It was not necessarily referring only to this particular subject but did include it. It was made in context of some posts made by other members.

The argument is as follows. Some have argued here that Pakistan must be willing to burn bridges with the U.S. and that the economic & other costs, if any of such action is somehow worth it. My point was that such comments opens a non resident Pakistani to the charge of being duplicitous since such sacrifices are not shared directly by them. Some(NRP'S) here who take extraordinarily extreme positions should be asked why they don't walk the talk & stand by their convictions. This is true on this subject as well as on those advocating more stringent religious laws.

I have made no comment on the merits of this particular case except to suggest very early on this thread that Pakistan must not rush headlong into a unwinnable battle which in the end would only serve to exacerbate internal fissures. Have stayed out of this argument since. I have no issues with the merit of the positions taken by many Pakistanis(you included) on this case except for the practicality of such a position.

Btw, your last comment on focusing on the argument & not on the person making them would have carried more weight if you hadn't said this.


> This canard of 'overseas Pakistanis' pops up frequently in discussions pushing nationalist Pakistani positions, *usually pushed by Indians*,


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## twoplustwoisfour

Anyways, I don't understand why you are calling this crap? Isn't this exactly what you guys have been accusing the Americans and Zardari govt. of planning?



Areesh said:


> Some muscular coercion, a muffled apology, and an additional few hundred million dollars in aid appears to have paved way for a momentary resolution between United States and Pakistan of the Raymond Davis affair that is even now threatening to derail ties between the mutually mistrustful allies.


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## Areesh

twoplustwoisfour said:


> Anyways, I don't understand why you are calling this crap? Isn't this exactly what you guys have been accusing the Americans and Zardari govt. of planning?


 
I am calling it as a crap because what TOI said so boldly is very much premature right now. May be same things would happen as TOI claimed but the fact is as the events happened yesterday it isn't that easy. In short TOI "prediction" is a bit premature right now.


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## twoplustwoisfour

Areesh said:


> I am calling it as a crap because what TOI said so boldly is very much immature right now. May be same things would happen as TOI claimed but the fact is as the events happened yesterday it isn't that easy. In short TOI "prediction" is a bit immature right now.


 
I can't argue with that. Lets see what happens today


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## American Eagle

The defintion of 100% diplomatic immunity is that which my President, Mr. Obama; my Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton; and the current US Ambassador to Pakistan have pronounced. The formal presentation of these factors we hold dear as defines Diplomatic Immunity will be publicized pretty soon, during Thursday, unless I am badly mistaken.

Until then we might get some sleep, have a cup of coffee, go to a movie or watch TV. My nor your opinions will govern the hard governmentally and legally established facts that will, in my judgement, clarify that Mr. Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity...those in higher "pay grades" than me, an old retired US Civil Servant and retired Colonel, those in higher "pay grades" will explain the international laws, which will I believe be in concert with the positive finding in letter from now of and from the Paksitan Foreign Officer which letter went to the Paksitan Interior Department.

If there is one single thing all who belong to PDF as a military website should understand is the concept of "by the numbers, by the book, and no barracks lawyers opinions from the observers." International law and associated treaties must prevail, these exist for situations exactly like this one.

I as one American believe in and trust the statements of my government. I for one am going to bed for the night!


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## jahangeer yousaf

Amercian Eagle but unfortunately Mr.Davis does not have immunity as secartry of foreign affairs showed documents to Mr.john and elaborated that the documents provided for visa were not enough to prove him ambassador and i think you should see press conference by mr mahmood qureshi our ex-foreign minister explicitly cleared that mr.davis does not have immunity till the time he was as foreign minister ........

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## HRK

To all those who believes Davis have blanket immunity I would not say any thing from my side to them but would like to quote

January 28, 2011
Islamabad - *A staff member of the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore was involved in an incident *yesterday that regrettably resulted in the loss of life. The U.S. Embassy is working with Pakistani authorities to determine the facts and work toward a resolution.

Below is the link of this press relase of US embassy in Islamab 

Embassy Statement Regarding Lahore Incident (01/28/2011) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan


And for consulate staff Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 states in its article 41, first paragraph 

1. *Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.*

Link for the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

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## JonAsad

Raymond Davis name was in the exit control list (ecl) before-- or its just been put there?
i see the slide on the tele today-


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## Omar1984

American Eagle said:


> *The defintion of 100% diplomatic immunity is that which my President, Mr. Obama*; my Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton; and the current US Ambassador to Pakistan have pronounced. The formal presentation of these factors we hold dear as defines Diplomatic Immunity will be publicized pretty soon, during Thursday, unless I am badly mistaken.
> 
> Until then we might get some sleep, have a cup of coffee, go to a movie or watch TV. My nor your opinions will govern the hard governmentally and legally established facts that will, in my judgement, clarify that Mr. Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity...those in higher "pay grades" than me, an old retired US Civil Servant and retired Colonel, those in higher "pay grades" will explain the international laws, which will I believe be in concert with the positive finding in letter from now of and from the Paksitan Foreign Officer which letter went to the Paksitan Interior Department.
> 
> If there is one single thing all who belong to PDF as a military website should understand is the concept of "by the numbers, by the book, and no barracks lawyers opinions from the observers." International law and associated treaties must prevail, these exist for situations exactly like this one.
> 
> I as one American believe in and trust the statements of my government. I for one am going to bed for the night!


 
And is the world supposed to take the word of an American president again. Have you forgotten the lies the former president of the United States George Bush told the world that the weapons of mass destruction was in Iraq, or what about the lies the former president of the United States Bill Clinton told the world that he did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski. So if another US President lies, that wont be a surprise to the world.



And is Raymond Davis a diplomat or a consular staff. Lahore just has a U.S. consulate office, the US embassy is located in Islamabad, the capital. Lahore is not the capital of Pakistan, Lahore is just one of the many cities of Pakistan. Raymond Davis claims he was working in the U.S. consulate office in Lahore, so according to him he is a consulate staff member not a diplomat. There is a huge difference. A consulate staff does not share the same immunity as a diplomat. And if he is a diplomat, what was he doing in Lahore carrying weapons, a GPS satellite tracking device, pictures of Pakistani army installations, and other sensitive material? Why was he making phone calls to Waziristan on the Pak-Afghan border when he was in the most eastern city of Pakistan near the Pakistan-India border (as Lahore police discovered from his cell phone). Its obvious Raymond Davis is not a diplomat.


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## JonAsad

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 states in its article 41 1st paragraph
> 1. Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.
> 
> Link for the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963 http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf


 
Thats whats i have been saying since day1--

for instance whats could be the Grave Crime?-
Brutally Killing two people-(putting total of 7-9 bullets in their backs)- does not come under Grave Crime?-

and article 42 talks about prosecution--

Actually what is illegal we have done here?-- Nothing-

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## MastanKhan

Gentlemen,


Mr Davis is going home---what we need to worry is how much of the extra aid money is going to the pocket of Mr Zardari and Mr Gilani---our prime minister---

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## twoplustwoisfour

Glorious Resolve said:


> Thats whats i have been saying since day1--
> 
> for instance whats could be the Grave Crime?-
> Brutally Killing two people-(putting total of 7-9 bullets in their backs)- does not come under Grave Crime?-
> 
> and article 42 talks about prosecution--
> 
> Actually what is illegal we have done here?-- Nothing-


 
I'd like to read more about what constitutes 'grave crime' in such circumstances. Has there ever been a precedence where a consular member has been detained? s far as I know, in India we tend to deport such people


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## ANG

Hi, I agree with Mr. MK. Pakistan is in no position financially to hold Mr. Davis, even in the situation where he does not have diplomatic immunity. The IMF has refused further loans to Pakistan, the US is stalling on reimbursing Pakistan via the Coalition Support Fund, no new taxes, no decrease in subsidies in the Pakistani budget, and other funding has dried up. 

I recently read the Pakistani finance minister was literally begging President's Obama's financial advisor for cash. Currently, the State Bank of Pakistan is printing billions of rupees to keep the government afloat. This will not last for long, as the rupee will simply keep losing its value, which will further increase foreign debt obligations. This current governments economic team is worse than Zimbabwe, printing notes. The bottom line is the current government does not care, other than enriching itself personally, and is completely dependent on the US for its financial charity. As such, it is inevitable that Mr. Davis will be released, immunity or no-immunity.

Liabilities, debt service rise to Rs1 trillion | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

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## CardSharp

American Eagle said:


> The defintion of 100% diplomatic immunity is that which my President, Mr. Obama; my Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton; and the current US Ambassador to Pakistan have pronounced. The formal presentation of these factors we hold dear as defines Diplomatic Immunity will be publicized pretty soon, during Thursday, unless I am badly mistaken.
> 
> Until then we might get some sleep, have a cup of coffee, go to a movie or watch TV. My nor your opinions will govern the hard governmentally and legally established facts that will, in my judgement, clarify that Mr. Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity...those in higher "pay grades" than me, an old retired US Civil Servant and retired Colonel, those in higher "pay grades" will explain the international laws, which will I believe be in concert with the positive finding in letter from now of and from the Paksitan Foreign Officer which letter went to the Paksitan Interior Department.
> 
> If there is one single thing all who belong to PDF as a military website should understand is the concept of "by the numbers, by the book, and no barracks lawyers opinions from the observers." International law and associated treaties must prevail, these exist for situations exactly like this one.
> 
> I as one American believe in and trust the statements of my government. I for one am going to bed for the night!


 
Col. 

You've been trying to give this pronouncement of diplomatic immunity an air finality, that Pres. Obama having thus said this, it is now too late to argue. But this is not so. Mr. Davis's dubious status as a diplomat aside (he introduced himself to the Pakistani police as a "consultant"), we should mention here, it is possible for the official's home country to waive diplomatic immunity, especially in the case when individual has committed a serious crime; unconnected with their diplomatic role. 

There have been such cases before involving in fact, the US. 



> The deputy ambassador of the Republic of Georgia to the United States, Gueorgui Makharadze, caused an accident in January 1997 that injured four people and killed a sixteen-year-old girl. He was found to have a blood-alcohol level of 0.15%, but was released from custody because he was a diplomat. The U.S. government asked the Georgian government to waive his immunity, which they did and Makharadze was tried and convicted of manslaughter by the U.S. and sentenced to seven to twenty-one years in prison. However after serving three years of his sentence, he was returned to his home country where he spent two more years in jail before being paroled.




The US asked Georgia to waive the deputy ambassador's DI and the Georgian government valuing America's friendship duly obliged. The man, when he was forgotten by the angry public, got his sentence reduced and the whole case smoothed over. I wonder, if America might value Pakistan's friendship enough to do as Georgia did?


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## JonAsad

twoplustwoisfour said:


> I'd like to read more about what constitutes 'grave crime' in such circumstances. *Has there ever been a precedence where a consular member has been detained? s far as I know, in India we tend to deport such people*


 
Usually Diplomats are deported for example- Driving under Alcohol Influence killing people (this guy was prosecuted and sentenced by the host country- After the sending country removed his imunity on request)-- Diplomats beating their wives- Diplomats captured with illegal prostitutes-- Diplomats carrying RDX- etc etc-

Of course you can say- these incidents does not come under term Grave Crimes- But- The case here is of a Diplomat- shooting and killing two Persons- with Fake Name- Passport- carrying Fake Number Plates- Illegal Murder Weapon- with Hollow point Bullets- with Illegal stashes of Weapons and Ammunitions- Spy Equipments- with Pictures of Sensitive locations- This guy was a Walking Hit Man- Spy- Weapons Dealer- Terrorist? but Definitely not a Diplomat doing his Administrative duty--
This is a unique case so he is detained and being prosecuted-


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## twoplustwoisfour

I found an interesting article on the website of the European Journal of International Law which deals with the subject of diplomatic immunity. The case in question is the conviction of US consular members by an Italian court in the Abu Omar case.

*The Conviction by an Italian Court of CIA Agents for Abduction  Some Issues Concerning Immunity​*
As Marko reported in an earlier post, an Italian Court has convicted 23 American agents (including the former head of the CIA in Milan) and 2 Italian intelligence agents for their part in the abduction and rendition of a muslim cleric Abu Omar. Abu Omar was taken from the streets of Milan to Egypt where he claimed to have been tortured. It was alleged that this act of extraordinary rendition was carried out by a team of CIA agents with the collaboration of Italian intelligence agency (for media report, see here, here, here and here). This case is of interest because it appears to be the first conviction of government agents alleged to be involved in the extraordinary rendition programme. It is also of interest because what we have is a conviction by the courts of one country of persons who are officials or agents of another government. The case therefore raises issues as to the immunity which State officials are entitled to, under international law, from the criminal jurisdiction of foreign States. Why is it that in this case Italy was able to exercise criminal jurisdiction over US agents? Or has the Italian court acted contrary to international law in proceeding with the case and not according immunity to the US officials agents. There are at least three types of immunity at issue here. First of all, the case raises issue as to the scope of diplomatic immunity. Secondly, the case raises issues as to the scope of consular immunity and highlights how this type of immunity differs from diplomatic immunity. The third type of immunity at issue is the immunity ratione materiae which all those who act on behalf of a foreign government are entitled to. This doctrine provides immunity from foreign criminal jurisdiction to a person where the act they have performed is essentially the act of a foreign government. Here the immunity attaches to the act itself and not so much to the official with the effect that this immunity is also available to former officials.

Issues relating to the first two types of immunity arise because some of the American defendants were US diplomatic and consular agents in Italy. It has been reported that three Americans were acquitted on grounds of diplomatic immunity. Presumably, those granted diplomatic immunity by the Italian court were members of the diplomatic staff of the US mission to Italy, which simply means they are members of staff with diplomatic rank (Art. 1 (d) of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961). It would not be unusual for intelligence agents to be granted such status and the head of the CIA in Italy was one of those granted immunity in the case. However, it is also reported that the Italian Court convicted at least one person (Sabrina de Sousa) who was a US consular officer at the time of the rendition. I do not know whether the US claimed diplomatic immunity in case of those for whom immunity was granted. However, the US government did not claim consular immunity in the case of Sabrina de Sousa who then sued the US State Department in an attempt to force the US government to make such a claim (see the report in the New York Times and here for her court claim). Although this might appear to be contradictory, there are differences in the relevant provisions of the two Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic and Consular Immunity which might justify the difference. Both conventions provide for immunity for diplomatic agents and consular officers. Art. 43(1) of the Consular Convention provides for immunity from the jurisdiction of the receiving State in respect of acts performed in the exercise of consular functions. Art. 39(2) of the Diplomatic Convention provides that former diplomatic agents will continue to be immune even after they leave office, with respect to acts performed by such a person in the exercise of his functions as a member of the mission. It is much easier to argue that acts (even acts which may be illegal) come within the exercise of a persons function as a member of a mission than it is to argue that acts come within the exercise of consular functions. Art. 3 of the Diplomatic Convention provides a broad definition of the functions of a diplomatic mission. These functions include: representing the interests of the sending state within the receiving state and negotiating with the government of the receiving State. Since the purpose of immunity is preclude a court from making a determination whether an act is lawful or not, it cannot be a limitation to the immunity with respect to these functions to say that they cannot extend to unlawful conduct. However, Art. 5 of the Consular Convention provides a much more specific and narrow definition of consular functions. It is difficult to argue that arranging for the abduction of a person would be an exercise of consular functions. The question here is not that such acts are unlawful but rather that they just dont fall within the ordinary understanding of the scope of consular functions as defined in Article 5.

Since it is alleged that the Americans charged were acting as officials or agents of the US government, there is at least a prima facie argument that these persons ought to have been accorded immunity ratione materiae respect to those acts. The written judgment is not yet available and it is not clear if the Italian Court explicitly considered this issue. It would not be surprising if they explicitly denied immunity. Not because this would be the right approach to take under international law but because Italian courts have taken a very narrow view of the scope of immunity of States in cases where the acts in question are alleged to be in violation of international law. The approach of the Italian courts and the case brought in the International Court of Justice against Italy on a related issue by Germany has been discussed here on this blog.

I do not know if the US government raised the immunity ratione materiae argument in relation to the convicted individuals. It is possible that they did not given that this might amount to an admission that these persons were actually engaged in these activities. There have been a number of cases where foreign officials have been convicted of spying in domestic courts. In these cases the home government usually does not claim immunity as it does not accept either that the person is an agent or that the person was engaged in acts of espionage. There was an incident in the 1980s when the Nigerian government attempted to abduct Umaru Dikko (a Nigerian politician) from London. Some persons connnected with that incident were convicted in the UK. Although they were acting as agents of the Nigerian government, that government did not admit this and did not claim immunity.

However, if immunity was claimed or if the Italian Court ought to have considered immunity, how should it have dealt with this issue. There are some arguments that may be made in support of the idea that there ought to be no immunity ratione materiae in the case of persons who have committed acts which amount to a violation of international law. However, some of these arguments, though persistently made, are not particularly strong.

*No immunity for jus cogens violation?

*The first argument that may be made is that the conduct in this case was a precursor to torture and involved a jus cogens norms. It may then be argued that there is no immunity under international law in relation to violations of just cogens. There are two problems with this argument. The first is that the actual crimes alleged in this case were abduction and kidnapping and not torture or complicity in torture. So there was no allegation of a violation of a jus cogens norm. In fact, it is hard to allege that, outside the context of war crimes and crimes against humanity, abduction is a crime under international law. It is a violation of human rights law which would engage state responsibility but there is no individual criminal responsibility for it under international law (unless it amounts to a war crime or crime against humanity). The second problem with this argument is that (as I explained in a previous post (here) and my comment to it), it is incorrect to say that there is no immunity under international law simply because the proceedings allege a violation of a jus cogens norm.

*Acts in question are not official acts?*

The second argument that may be made is that immunity ratione materiae is only available where a person performs an official act and that where, as here, the act is unlawful it ought not be considered an official act. Although this argument found favour in House of Lords in the Pinochet case, it is a ridiculous argument. This argument would mean that immunity from foreign jurisdiction is only available where the acts in question are lawful in which case one wonders why immunity is necessary. Also, the argument requires a court to decide on legality of the conduct in order to be able to make a decision on whether it is competent to decide on legality!

*No immunity for acts of foreign officials committed within the forum?*

-The third argument that may be made here is that there is no immunity raione materiae in this case because the acts in question occurred within the territory of the forum (i.e in Italy). According to this argument, States are not entitled to immunity from the jurisdiction of foreign States when they commit torts within the territory of that latter State. This principle is embodied in the national immunity legislation of a number of countries as well as in Art. 12 of the UN Convention on Jurisdictional Immunity.

However, there is question as to whether this limitation from immunity has entered into customary international law. In McElhinney v. Williams and Her Majestys Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, (1995) 104 ILR 691, the Irish Supreme Court held that customary international law did not establish an exception for immunity in cases where personal injury was done to a person by a foreign State on the territory of the forum State. The court held that even though a number of Statutes like the UK State Immunity Act provided for such an exception this did not evidence customary international law. In that case immunity was granted to the UK in respect of an attempt by a UK soldier to fire a gun at the claimant within the Republic of Ireland. The soldier had been on guard on the Northern Ireland/Republic border and had been involuntarily taken within the Republic. It was held that he solder was performing governmental activities and that the act was immune from Irish jurisdiction.

It can be argued that since a State does not have sovereign rights in foreign territory, where it acts within the territory of another State it cannot be said to be acting in the exercise of sovereign authority. But the European Court of Human Rights held in McElhinney v. Ireland (Nov. 2001) that

_ it cannot be said that Ireland is alone in holding that immunity attaches to suits in respect of such torts committed by acta jure imperii or that, in affording this immunity, Ireland falls outside any currently accepted international standards. para 38_

It could be that all that the ECHR is saying is that a State does not act in violation of international law by according immunity in such cases but that this does not necessarily mean that the State is bound to accord the immunity. However, the ECHR was also of the view that this exception to immunity, to the extent that it exists, does not relate to all acts within the forum and does not apply to matters relating to the core area of State sovereignty. (para. 38)

*Immunity of the State and the Immunity of State Officials*
 
The cases and the developments in national legislation discussed in the previous section deal with the immunity of the State itself and not that of officials of the State. As I have pointed out in an earlier post (see here) the immunity of State officials is wider than those of States and simply derivative from State immunity. Immunity ratione materiae of State officials serves two purposes. One of these purposes is procedural and aims to prevent the circumvention of the immunity of the State by the device of suing of prosecuting the individual. The second purpose of immunity ratione materiae of State officials is to accord a substantive defence to the official. Here the aim is to say that the official is not to be considered responsible for acts which are really that of the State (see the Mccleod case arising out of the famous Caroline incident). So this immunity is a means of giving effect to the act of State defence. It is this second purpose of immunity of State officials that leads to the conclusion that it is broader than that of the State. So, even if there is an exception to State immunity for acts committed within the forum this does not lead to the conclusion that such an exception applies to the immunity of State officials.

In cases where the act of the official in question is a crime under international law, and where international law, permits the exercise of jurisdiction by other States then both purposes of immunity do not exist and immunity ought not to be accorded. This leads back to the question whether abduction is a crime under international law. If the answer to that question is no, then the Italian courts have acted contrary to the immunity of the US state officials. But this again assumes that the US is prepared to stand behind the officials and to assert that the acts in question are acts of the US State.


The Conviction by an Italian Court of CIA Agents for Abduction &#8211; Some Issues Concerning Immunity « EJIL: Talk!

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## Abu Basit

RescueRanger said:


> For God's sake... Let him go!!! Why ruin all this trust, all this good...
> 
> I want stronger relations between Pakistan and the USA. I wan't this to grow and flourish and i want us to sit back a bit, tone down the passion and hear both sides.
> 
> Things were handled badly on both sides... Lets move on beyond this.



you wouldn't have said this had your brother/father/child (Allah forbid) been killed by an american terrorist.

listen to the voice of the majority, this terrorist should be hanged.

and there's nothing good in the so called 'good' relationships with america.

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## JonAsad

* LHC to hear Davis case via video-link
*

LAHORE: Lahore High Court (LHC) though video-link will open a hearing on Thursday to decide if a US official accused of killing two Pakistanis has diplomatic immunity, in a case that has frayed ties between the wary allies.

LHC had given the foreign ministry 15 days to answer on whether full diplomatic status was held by Raymond Davis, who has been remanded in custody since his arrest following the incident on January 27.

Foreign ministry and US legal counsel are expected to make representations to the chief justice at 9am (0400GMT) before legal challenges are made by lawyers who have filed private petitions questioning Davis' status and aimed at stopping him from leaving the country.

"The actions of Raymond Davis are not covered by blanket immunity because he has committed a heinous crime," one of the lawyers, Mohammad Azhar Siddique, told AFP.

"According to the process of investigation he has been charged with murder... Let the American face trial."

The judge can confirm or reject the US claim of diplomatic immunity, or can adjourn the case to give himself more time to decide.

Davis insists he acted in self-defence when he shot dead the two men in a busy street in the eastern city of Lahore. A third Pakistani died when struck by a US diplomatic vehicle that came to Davis' assistance.

The Pakistan government has largely remained quiet in public since the incident that triggered a major diplomatic row, but American officials have insisted Davis must be immediately released under international law.

Former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has said Davis does not have full diplomatic status, while the ministry in a statement on Wednesday dismissed media speculation that it had already confirmed the US man's right to immunity.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has said that the courts must decide Davis' fate.

But the prime minister has also suggested that relatives of the two Pakistani men shot dead might pardon the American, following a high-profile visit to the country by US Senator John Kerry aimed at resolving the row.

Kerry, who heads the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and arrived in Lahore on Tuesday, voiced deep regret over the killings.

Many Pakistanis remain suspicious about Davis, who was arrested with loaded weapons and a GPS satellite-tracking device, and who police have said is guilty of murder. US authorities have been vague as to his role in Pakistan.

Hundreds of Pakistanis have taken to the streets demanding that Davis be hanged over the killings, and domestic media has been rife with allegations of a spy conspiracy. The widow of one of the men shot dead has committed suicide.

The United States has postponed a round of high-level talks with Afghanistan and Pakistan following failed attempts to get Davis out, and US lawmakers have threatened to cut payments to Pakistan unless he is freed.

A court last Friday remanded Davis in custody until February 25. (Online).

Source: GeoTv


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## Awesome

Post-poned to 14th March... The FO didn't present any letter, the US embassy personnel weren't even there, they buckled under pressure when the reports leaked out that they will be presenting fake documents on thursday.

They asked for three more weeks to present their case, hopefully even three years won't be enough to falsify these documents.


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## Awesome

RescueRanger said:


> For God's sake... Let him go!!! Why ruin all this trust, all this good...
> 
> I want stronger relations between Pakistan and the USA. I wan't this to grow and flourish and i want us to sit back a bit, tone down the passion and hear both sides.
> 
> Things were handled badly on both sides... Lets move on beyond this.


 
If the US is now in the business of killing Pakistanis and evading trial for it, they are already an enemy state. From Pakistan's side things weren't handled badly... Especially when you consider there are two Pakistan's, America's Pakistan and Pakistanis' Pakistan. The Pakistani side has done things by the book, but the American side has now resorted to using our corrupt elements and falsifying documents, firing people from the position of power who supported the Pakistani side.

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## Awesome

Pak Foreign Ministry denies 'reported statement' on Davis' diplomatic immunity


Pakistan's Foreign Ministry has denied any reported statements regarding the diplomatic immunity issue of double murder-accused US official Raymond Davis, dismissing them as 'rumours'.

It had been reported by Pakistani media that the Foreign Office had declared Davis "a diplomat" in a letter written to the Law Ministry.

According to that letter, Davis was designated in Pakistan at the US Consulate in Lahore as "a diplomat" and enjoys 'diplomatic immunity' according to the Vienna Convention.

However, refuting these reports, the Foreign Office spokesman said in his statement that whether the US consulate employee had diplomatic immunity or not was up to the court to decide, and denied any reported statements regarding the issue.

The Foreign Office said that all the reports regarding the issue were based on 'assumptions' and did not have anything to do with the facts, the Dawn reported.

It is noteworthy that the Foreign Office issued this statement in the backdrop of the news circulating in the media regarding the handover of Davis to the US authorities. (ANI)


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## Awesome

Senator John Kerry leaves Pakistan 



> ISLAMABAD, Feb 16 (APP): Senator John Kerry who arrived in Pakistan on Tuesday night, left on Wednesday after having meetings with the senior leadership of the country.During his stay in Pakistan, he met with President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani and Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani.He also held special meetings with chief of Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz (PML-N) Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif and former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi.Senator Kerry was seen off at Chaklala Air Base by US Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron P. Munter and other officials of the US Embassy.
> 
> Talking to media before his departure, John Kerry termed his visit and meetings satisfactory adding that he had held detailed discussions over the issue of Davis.
> 
> &#8220;I am hopeful that the Lahore incident will be resolved in the coming days,&#8221; he added.
> 
> Senator Kerry remarked that he would brief President Obama on his meetings in Pakistan.
> 
> He expressed his profound grief and sorrow over the tragic incident.



Obama should come down himself too, once he gets to talk to the hand too... Things in Pakistan will change for the good. The momentum is perfect to break free of the shackles America has tied us in.

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## charlietophits

American Eagle said:


> I repeat what I wrote earlier today. I respect and believe what our US President, our US Secretary of State, and our US Ambassasdor have said that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity. This fact is borne out as in agreed to by the Pakistani Foreign Officer letter to the Pakistani Interior Minister who in turn one presumes will share this information with Mr. Davis and with the Pakistani court involved.
> 
> It may be fun for some to fantasize about evil scenarios but there are crimes attempted all over the world where the robbers sometimes end up being killed by the person put upon resisting their robbery attempt. This is a clear cut case of such an example, if anyone will focus on the findings on the first Paksitani Police Report.
> 
> The definition of a robber is to be found with stolen goods on your person or in your possession. This is and was the case of both failed robbers who took on Mr. Davis.
> 
> It serves no useful purpose to get into more details, some of which are very suspect to try to railroad Mr. Davis, so I will go no further.
> 
> The only thing that matters now, initially, is the fact that the FO now admits in writing that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity, 100% immunity, as do all overseas US State Dept. employees of all sorts and types.


 


I don't think that raymond is a diplomat . And so what if he is?
He was caught carrying weapons , a GPS satellite tracking device, pictures of Pakistani army sensitive installations, and other sensitive material? Why was he making phone calls to Waziristan on the Pak-Afghan border when he was in the most eastern city of Pakistan near the Pakistan-India border (as Lahore police discovered from his cell phone). 

The above mentioned fact prove without a shadow of doubt that R. davis was actually a spy. Hence he should be tried as such too. 
No spy of any country can be allowed diplomatic immunity in any way at all.

Spies are usually executed, which should not be a problem in Raymond's case because he has already killed 2 persons and also used excessive force. 
One report says that he got out of the car and shot one of the men again too.

On the minimum raymond should get exactly what he dishes out.

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## charlietophits

ANG said:


> Hi, I agree with Mr. MK. Pakistan is in no position financially to hold Mr. Davis, even in the situation where he does not have diplomatic immunity. The IMF has refused further loans to Pakistan, the US is stalling on reimbursing Pakistan via the Coalition Support Fund, no new taxes, no decrease in subsidies in the Pakistani budget, and other funding has dried up.
> 
> I recently read the Pakistani finance minister was literally begging President's Obama's financial advisor for cash. Currently, the State Bank of Pakistan is printing billions of rupees to keep the government afloat. This will not last for long, as the rupee will simply keep losing its value, which will further increase foreign debt obligations. This current governments economic team is worse than Zimbabwe, printing notes. The bottom line is the current government does not care, other than enriching itself personally, and is completely dependent on the US for its financial charity. As such, it is inevitable that Mr. Davis will be released, immunity or no-immunity.
> 
> Liabilities, debt service rise to Rs1 trillion | Newspaper | DAWN.COM


 

I have got news for you, So is America! America is continuously printing billions of dollars without so much as an ounce of gold to back it up. It was widely feared in the Financial sector of America that there would be chaos and anarchy in the streets when the people come to realize that the banks and all financial institutions are basically bankrupt. 
But this did not happen. Now Obama is printing more dollars and pumping this in its already "empty" economy. 
Why do you think that Ahmedinajad or chavez are bad guys? They have basically started selling oil or trading in Euro. If this trend catches on, suddenly the demand for the dollar will fall and america will find the dollar being equal to the japanese yen.

That is the whole story in short


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## Sulfur

RD is a typical Trigger Happy American Soldier with inbuilt arrogance, and who has the required security assurance provided by the both American and Pakistan foreign offices. Although, this background is not sufficient to describe reason for the act of killing but lack of ability to retaliate (any kind) is always anticipated by attack. A very faint motive (two guys following on bicke) how became the reason for so powerful reaction; could not be analyzed without going into the details of history/media/Paranoia/ /type-A personality/alcohol/STDs/ and abuses etc. 

This person could have different attitude in Somalia (where an American soldier was dragged through Moghadeshu) because history sets the deterrence. Analyzing Pakistan or America in a general way (within the context of this event) will be totally misleading and create much more smoke than fire. 

It is always fruitful to be specific and quantitative, and regarding this event, the only solution could be; estimate losses (and losses to come) for both the countries, compensation for the effected families, bilateral transfer of detainee, and proper use of media to inform people of both countries about this incident and future preventive action. This seems idealistic, but there must be a frame of reference to start with otherwise noises will override the advices.

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## Leviza

Sulfur said:


> RD is a typical &#8216;Trigger Happy American Soldier&#8217; with inbuilt arrogance, and who has the required security assurance provided by the both American and Pakistan foreign offices. Although, this background is not sufficient to describe reason for the act of killing but lack of ability to retaliate (any kind) is always anticipated by attack. A very faint motive (two guys following on bicke) how became the reason for so powerful reaction; could not be analyzed without going into the details of history/media/Paranoia/ /type-A personality/alcohol/STDs/ and abuses etc.
> 
> This person could have different attitude in Somalia (where an American soldier was dragged through Moghadeshu) because history sets the deterrence. Analyzing Pakistan or America in a general way (within the context of this event) will be totally misleading and create much more smoke than fire.
> 
> It is always fruitful to be specific and quantitative, and regarding this event, the only solution could be; estimate losses (and losses to come) for both the countries, compensation for the effected families, bilateral transfer of detainee, and proper use of media to inform people of both countries about this incident and future preventive action. This seems idealistic, but there must be a frame of reference to start with otherwise noises will override the advices.


 
you seems to be a very simple person my friend .... there are lots of double faces friends of Pakistan these days...
USA is playing a double games in Pakistan.... they are so simple like you said then they dont need such CIA elements on Pakistan ground.
Also they wont allow india in Afghanistan to back stab Pakistan 

so simple solution is 
Jahan per itnay false encounter hotay hian police main wahan aek ye bhee ho jana chiya (jitna jaldi hota utna easy rehta) ..... coz gov is failed in protecting its citizens 

USA is not only looking to protect this one guy actual issue is if this guy is properly investigated then lots of other CIA elements will be exposed to ISI and general public which USA dont want :0 i hope you got the picture now...


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## r3alist

Asim Aquil said:


> Senator John Kerry leaves Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> Obama should come down himself too, once he gets to talk to the hand too... Things in Pakistan will change for the good. The momentum is perfect to break free of the shackles America has tied us in.


 


charlietophits said:


> I don't think that raymond is a diplomat . And so what if he is?
> He was caught carrying weapons , a GPS satellite tracking device, pictures of Pakistani army sensitive installations, and other sensitive material? Why was he making phone calls to Waziristan on the Pak-Afghan border when he was in the most eastern city of Pakistan near the Pakistan-India border (as Lahore police discovered from his cell phone).
> 
> The above mentioned fact prove without a shadow of doubt that R. davis was actually a spy. Hence he should be tried as such too.
> No spy of any country can be allowed diplomatic immunity in any way at all.
> 
> Spies are usually executed, which should not be a problem in Raymond's case because he has already killed 2 persons and also used excessive force.
> One report says that he got out of the car and shot one of the men again too.
> 
> On the minimum raymond should get exactly what he dishes out.








Well said guys.

Atleast some are thinking straight.


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## rohailmalhi

Question for American Eagle : 
What will your gov do if they get a consular arrested for killing 2 americans in so called self defence. and the person is has illegal ammo and spying device . What will u do if u get from that consular ,the pictures of american sensitive installations and the call record linking him to terrorist groups which are trying to kill more Americans .

What will u would u let it go without anything .I dont think so .

Justice should be served .RD should be punished for what he has done to Pakistanis. May his soul rest in hell .

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## Awesome

MastanKhan said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> 
> *Mr Davis is going home*---what we need to worry is how much of the extra aid money is going to the pocket of Mr Zardari and Mr Gilani---our prime minister---


 
Mastaan sahab, it is really confusing, if such statements are being given by a selective type of Pakistanis to alert the Pakistani public to stand up to this injustice or is it being done to infuse some sort of conciliatory thought in the Pakistani mindset that "that things are so bad so there is no use fighting for the right things".

I can't help but realize that this selective group, be it Sami Shah's I Spy article, be it the loyalists of the PPP, be it the doomsday warnings on the forums - its certainly starting to look like a concientious effort to some how degalvanize the Pakistani populace that is right now fighting the most important battle for its sovereignty.

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## Awesome

To add to the point that this is not just about one case, but its about ridding us from the royal Fing job we're getting at the hands of numerous agents

CIA Army&#8217;s murder teams invade Pakistan: Bob Woodward|Today&#039;s Views



> The CIA calls it its elite Counterterrorism Pursuit Teams. Pakistanis face it as the TTP. The CIA calls it Counterterrorism Pursuit Teams. Pakistan see them as bombs blowing up in mosques and hospitals. The CIA sees its army killing &#8220;terrorists&#8221;. Pakistanis face an unending killing of its civilians.
> 
> *The CIA created, controls and pays for a clandestine 3,000-man paramilitary army of local Afghans, known as Counterterrorism Pursuit Teams*. Woodward describes these teams as elite, well-trained units that conduct highly sensitive covert operations into Pakistan as part of a stepped-up campaign against al-Qaeda and Afghan Taliban havens there. (Excerpt from Boob Woodward&#8217;s book published in the Washington Post).

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## Abu Basit

In streets of Lahore, anger at U.S. shooter runs deep

By Chris Allbritton
LAHORE | Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:13am EST

LAHORE (Reuters) - A day before a Pakistani court considers the question of diplomatic immunity for a U.S. national accused of two murders, the relatives of one of the slain men demanded "blood for blood" and threatened revenge.

U.S. consulate employee Raymond Davis shot dead two Pakistanis last month in what he said was self-defense during an armed robbery.

Washington has insisted Davis, whose role at the U.S. consulate in Lahore is unclear, should be released immediately. Pakistan says his status should be determined by the courts.
"We will only accept blood for blood," said Imran Haider, the eldest brother of Faizan Haider, one of the slain men. "He should be tried in Pakistan and sentenced to death here."
The Lahore High Court will hold another hearing in the case on Thursday, during which the United States is expected to present a petition to certify that Davis has diplomatic immunity and should be released.

Obama has sent Senator John Kerry to Pakistan to help secure Davis's release. Kerry has issued a statement of regret over the loss of life and pledged that the U.S. Department of Justice would open a criminal investigation against Davis.

As Pakistan celebrated the birthday of Islam's Prophet Mohammad, the Ravi Road area of Lahore, where the Haider family lives, was bedecked with tinsel streamers. Religious hymns blared from a boombox propped up on a couple of cinderblocks.

Inside the modest receiving room of the Haider household, where photos of prize goats previously sacrificed for Muslim holidays dot the walls, Imran was in no mood to compromise.

"He has killed our innocent brother and we will seek his death in return for this crime," Haider said while a relative sat nearby dabbing watery eyes.
"Immunity doesn't mean he should kill people on the street," he said. "And if he is sent to the United States, we will fight to the last drop of our blood."


He added: "We will come to the streets and muster support from the people of Pakistan and surround the homes and residences of the rulers.

"If they play any role in the release of Raymond Davis, I believe the people will oust the two governments" at the federal and provincial level.

Many in Lahore, Pakistan's lively cultural capital, agreed.
"Raymond Davis should be hanged in public. He should not be handed over to the Americans," said Tanvir Ahmed, a student at the University of Engineering and Technology in Lahore.

"If our rulers hand him over to the U.S., we will kick them out of the power corridor."


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## Abu Basit

*Pakistan Delays Ruling on Jailed American*

By JANE PERLEZ
Published: February 17, 2011

*ISLAMABAD, Pakistan* &#8212; A provincial court gave the Pakistani government three weeks on Thursday to decide whether the American official in custody for killing two Pakistanis has diplomatic immunity, a decision that amounts to a slap to the United States, the nation&#8217;s biggest donor and an ally in the fight against terror.

The decision came a day after a whirlwind visit by Senator John Kerry who tried to find a quick resolution to the case which has severely damaged relations between the two countries and exposed the weakness of the pro-American government headed by President Asif Ali Zardari.


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## Cynic Waheed

I thought the American's were gonna provide some paperwork to courts today to be able to get him out. Why didn't they do it when they are so confident that he is indeed a diplmat and according to sen Kerry they have paper work that supports their stance?


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## Hulk

While you guys might be happy about American pain, I have a question. Is it worth the fight if the two guys were criminals?
It is not that only US needs your help, you also need them.

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## Cynic Waheed

indianrabbit said:


> While you guys might be happy about American pain, I have a question. Is it worth the fight if the two guys were criminals?
> It is not that only US needs your help, you also need them.


 You assumption uses the word 'IF', taking the same assumption farward is it not worth a fight 'IF' the men were not robers? (atleast thats what the official investigation says)

Secondly, I frankly think it is important to draw a clear line for the US, it is not Iraq they are in, its Pakistan. Next time their trigger happy agents will think twice before opening fire. We are boiling over drones and this is taking our patience to the next level. As a Pakistani, I shouldn't feel intimidated by foriegners in my own country.

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## Hulk

Cynic Waheed said:


> You assumption uses the word 'IF', taking the same assumption farward is it not worth a fight 'IF' the men were not robers? (atleast thats what the official investigation says)
> 
> Secondly, *I frankly think it is important to draw a clear line for the US, it is not Iraq they are in, its Pakistan*. Next time their trigger happy agents will think twice before opening fire. We are boiling over drones and this is taking our patience to the next level. As a Pakistani, I shouldn't feel intimidated by foriegners in my own country.



About bolded part, you have by now already sent a message. Overdoing it might not be right. But I agree you should send a message that they cannot do whatever this wish too. Rest your decision, your country.

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## Patriot

This guy needs to be shot dead in a similar way period.


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## VCheng

Patriot said:


> This guy needs to be shot dead in a similar way period.


 
This post is an example why the two week delay in proceedings is actually GOOD. It will allow tempers to cool down and perhaps improve rational thought on both sides to resolve the issue satisfactorily.

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## Patriot

VCheng said:


> This post is an example why the two week delay in proceedings is actually GOOD. It will allow tempers to cool down and perhaps improve rational thought on both sides to resolve the issue satisfactorily.


Sorry i get carried away sometime but looking at the attitude of americans on some forums i do think it might be a good option.Giving options like we should bomb pakistan to get him back etc.

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## VCheng

Patriot said:


> Sorry i get carried away sometime but looking at the attitude of americans on some forums i do think it might be a good option.Giving options like we should bomb pakistan to get him back etc.


 
I do appreciate your realizing that you got carried away, and trust me, I also appreciate the anger that everybody is feeling right now.

However, ANGER was something that Mohammed (PBUH) disliked for a very good reason: It causes one to do things that one surely regrets later but are sometimes irreversible.

The best counter-attack is driven by intelligent planning, not blind rage.

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## American Eagle

First please understand that I write from my home here in the SE USA. I am basically retired (but still do some small work occasionally as a consultant, and such). I normally enjoy current and past military exchanges, so this unhappy topic has been a new avenue where I feel honesty of purpose and American perspective are required so that those you who have a different culture and in some instances a different value sysytem can better understand where I, alone by perhaps atypical of the average Westerner, am coming from. ***Those of you living, studying, and/or working in European nations, Canada, or the US should know that we have largely the same legal process in general, but US juris prudence is perhaps the best worldwide as all charged invididuals have built in Constitutional rights that cannot be abridged, the same as Mr. Davis overseas has Internation Law, ie, Diplomatic Immunity, as a protection for himself until his home nation, with him depoted back to the US, can use it's legal system to investigate, evaluate, charge if appropriate, and if needs be then try Mr. Davis, should the facts then warrant a trial.

No one in their right mind disregards deaths by violence. 

Aware US citizens genuinely grieve for the two deceased robbers and also for one of their widows who chose to take her own life. These are sensitive areas of human relationships we all should agree, but the emotions and sentiments are outside of the requirements to have Diplomatic Immunity involved not to merely "free up" Mr. Davis but to return him to his home country where our legal system can investigate and take whatever actions that can lead to a court charge and then a due process court case here.

The above comments by and from me require me to explain that I am a founder of the Chuck Colson Prison Fellowship here in Alabama and in the Greater Birmingham City Area. This says that laws in the US can incarcerate, even sentence to death found guilty persoons who are so found by our clear cut legal processes and system. But the people, even the found guilty people, are still the children of God and we work with them as long as it takes, and in the case of capial crimes committed with those on Death Row until the time of their legal execution here.

This simplified means we separate the sin from the sinner and seek eternal salvation for the sinner as my faith, Christianity (I am a Protestant) teaches if a man will genuinly and honestly repent of his sins God will forgive him. Thus even a found guilty person waiting for execution can have made a positive and binding peace with God to then know they have the Hope and Assurance of salvation and eternal life.

This said, if you can read the most recent three or four days of postings therein you will find that the US Department of State, US Embassy inside Pakitan, did authorize and required Mr. Davis to carry fire arms in conjunction with his diplomatic job. 

That closes your fire arms found in Mr. Davis car question out as far as I am concerned in that Mr. Davis was faced with armed bandits who in his view threatened his life, limb, and cash. Please remember that Mr. Davis had just goten in plain public view cash at a Paksitani bank ATM. 

I, me only, think the two robbers cased Mr. Davis getting cash from the ATM, and knowing that most Westerners carry cell phones, looked forward to stealing both his cash and his cell phones.

A pay slip which was posted onto this site and which first appeared in the Karachi DAWN this week is a fake, fraud, not genuine, and someone there is merely spreading false and faked information to try and cause unnecessary and falsified trouble for Mr. Davis.

How can I make these assertions from here in the USA? 

I am a retired US Civil Service management official, with broad management personnel management experience over a 25 year federal civil service career from which I am now retired. I am also retired from 31 years in the Air Force Reserve, six years active duty, to include 18 months overseas US Embassy duty there in Pakistan, and 25 years in the paid USAF Reserve with duty my last 10 reserve years at the Joint Chiefs of Staff level as a Colonel. 

I am used to and helped develop in our US Government (both in he the US Public Health Service and in the US Department of Veterans Affairs) contracting out employee paperwork.  All this was discussed by me several, many days ago on this thread. 

Boiled down The company Mr. Davis is with, which he and his wife may very well own as a simple partnership, the company, not the Person of Mr. Davis, contracts with the US State Dept. This causes the State Dept. to have a career diplomatic employee was long as State actively contracts with the company which in turn furnishes to the US Dept. of State. This fact tells me, and I now voluntarily share with you, that as State pays the company to supply Mr. Davis then State classifies Mr. Davis as it's diplomat as part of their administrative and technical staff. Mr. Davis is as much a diplomat with DI standing as any other US State Dept. He now is an employee, ie, as in a diplomat, as are other US Dept of State otherwise admistrative or technical staffers.

Here again US law understands the ins and outs. It may have taken the Pakistani Foreign Office a while to understand the above legal facts to then issue the FO letter to the Paksitani Interior Ministry acknowledging that Mr. Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. But clearly the Pakistani Foreign Office now understands these personnel ins and out unique to the US Government, all departmens, commissions, boards thereof.

Reading all the facts concering the two robbers per Pakistani police report had 5 cell phones between them, two of which matched up with the just robbed same day honorable Pakistani 2 gentlemen, whose phones (1 each) and cash, amount in Pakistani currency spelled out in Police report but I forget the amount...point is the two Pakistani gentlemen's phones and cash were recovered by Police in Lahore same day at the scene of the failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis. "Hot stolen goods" is what describes in US terms was found on the persons of the two robbers after the Davis event.

I have tried to oblidge, to analyze, part of your questions but I stop now and point out again the legal process many of you may not be familiar with.

Any diplomat as defined by Article 31 of the Geneva Convention on status of diplomats vs. local laws and customs abroad, as well as associatred Treaties, Mr. Davis has 100% diplomatic immunity so further details and processes should await his return to the USA, where US authorities will then investigate the entire scenario after Diplomatic Immunity has first been obeyed.

Senator Kerry promised US Justice Dept. complete and thorough investigation once Davis is retured per Diplomatic Immunity to US. This statement in the worldwide media worldwide was made with the full recognition that President Obama charged Senator Kerry to act as his special envoy for Kerry's current visit to Pakistan.

American justice always, not sometimes, but always presumes innocent until proven guilty. Thus Mr. Davis will most likely be kept on a short leash once back in the US and be before US justice and court system on an expedited basis would be my best guess.

Politely put but factually meant the courts inside Pakistan due to Mr. Davis having DI as now vouched for in writing by the Pakistani Foreign Office and as further certified as having 100% Diplomtic Immunity by the US State Dept. do not and did never in terms of Internaional Law have jurisdiction over Mr. Davis. The Pakistani FO letter has worldwide standing and is the valid and proper within Pakistan response. This FO letter from yesterday recognizes on behalf of the Pakistan Government Mr. Davis as having full, 100%, Diplomatic Immunity. That is not to say that Mr. Davis walks away when returned to the US. 

Once back in the USA Mr. Davis will face an full and through judical review, charging if deemed appropirate, and then a court case process for trail, if that is what our laws decide is the right course of action. All of the US legal proceedings you can be assured will be covered daily in the worldwide media for you to continue tracking Mr. Davis under US legal due process.

Summarized Pakistan has a very different legal system, which has recently contributed to things like President Musharraf resigning from office, and ways and means of practicing law that differs from the US legal system. This is why any nation's diplomat has DI so that anyone involved in such a scenario as Mr. Davis will face proper justice review and associated actions, future tense, under the proper laws of his home nation. 

Have a good day.

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## Cynic Waheed

indianrabbit said:


> About bolded part, you have by now already sent a message. Overdoing it might not be right. But I agree you should send a message that they cannot do whatever this wish too. Rest your decision, your country.


 
Agreed. But the situation on ground is at a tipping point now. Blame it on who you can but its a reality. So the gov however incompetent might be is right when it says that there is devil on one side and deep blue sea on the other. Those sitting in US must understand this and find a way forward in a 'legit' manner. Forgery at this stage will bring everything to ground zero, really it would mean our struggle to get justice in this case is at the behest of a few papers that US can generate at any time. So we need a solution that satisfies all sides In a 'legit' way and there is a way forward. 

Islam is a beautiful relegion, it always provides ways for people to reconcile even incase of murder. The families can pardon RD and the situation can be diffused without violence. The relegious parties can say nothing against it. We will have made our point that 'IF' anything of this sort is to happens again, expect no forgery and full justice. This in my view can be an ideal end to the RD saga. All sides win.


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## GUNNER

*Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions*

A court in Pakistan has delayed a hearing to decide whether an American who shot dead two men in Lahore last month has diplomatic immunity. The arrest of Raymond Davis has severely damaged relations between the countries. Much of the detail in the case remains unclear - the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan looks at some of the unanswered questions.

*Is Raymond Davis a diplomat?*

If you are thinking of a suavely dressed man in a three-piece suit who holds meetings with local officials to further or broaden his country's agenda, you would be wrong. Mr Davis was definitely not employed for his diplomatic skills - he is more a "hands-on" person, working in what the US embassy says is its "administrative and technical affairs section". Reports from the US say he is a former special forces soldier who left the military in 2003 and is working for the US embassy in Pakistan. As such, the US insists he is covered by the Vienna Convention which guarantees immunity from prosecution for all diplomatic staff. 

*Could he be a spy?*

Many Pakistanis believe he is - there seem few other credible explanations as to why he was going around Lahore with a Glock pistol in a car with local number plates without informing local authorities. It is a requirement for embassy staff - especially those from Western embassies - to inform local police of their movements, simply because they are prime targets for militants in Pakistan. Mr Davis's department in the US embassy is widely seen in Pakistan as a cover for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operations. Mr Davis himself said he was a consultant employed by the US government. Researchers in the US say that since leaving the military, Mr Davis worked for a security firm called Hyperion LLC. But subsequent investigations by the US media have now shown that Hyperion exists only as a website. The offices that the company says it has in Orlando have been vacant for several years and the numbers on its website are unlisted. 

*Can Mr Davis be convicted for the murders?*

Maybe. It all depends on how eager the Pakistani authorities are to punish him. The fact that he is possibly a spy does not mean he is not covered by diplomatic immunity. It is common practice for intelligence services across the world to send operatives under the cover of assignments to embassies. Both Pakistani and US "diplomats" have been caught in such situations - and every time have been asked to leave the host country immediately with no possibility of a return. That is the maximum punishment that has been levied in the overwhelming majority of cases in countries which have signed the Vienna Convention. However, in some countries there are exceptions for serious offences committed, such as murder. Pakistan is one of those countries. The matter is now in the hands of the judiciary. But it is important to remember that Mr Davis has been charged with murder - the maximum sentence here is the death penalty.

*Should Mr Davis have been carrying a gun?*

Legally speaking, only Pakistani citizens with licences issued by the interior ministry are allowed to carry arms. No foreigner is allowed to carry arms, except soldiers or guards within the premises of an embassy. Both Pakistani nationals and foreigners caught carrying arms can be charged under a Pakistani criminal law which stipulates a jail term of six months to two years in addition to a fine. Mr Davis has also been charged under this law. 

*Was he acting in self-defence?*

That was the initial plea made by Mr Davis and the US embassy. However, subsequent investigations by the police, forensic labs and the local and international media suggest that the two men were driving away from Mr Davis when they were shot. In February Lahore's police chief said that Mr Davis was guilty of "cold-blooded murder" - he said that no fingerprints had been uncovered on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men. Furthermore he said that tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazines of their guns, not the chambers, suggesting they weren't about to shoot him. On the face of it, this leaves Mr Davis's claim that they were robbers - with one even apparently cocking a gun at his head - looking very thin. In addition, police say ballistics evidence shows that the pair were shot in the back - which again suggests they were moving away from Mr Davis, rather than about to attack him.

*Who were the Pakistanis that Mr Davis shot?*

In his initial statement, Mr Davis said they were robbers who were trying to steal his valuables. He and the US embassy have maintained this story. However, the men have no criminal records as such. Both have been identified as residents of Lahore by the police. The pair were carrying licensed pistols - a fact which led many to believe they might indeed have been robbers. However, security sources in Lahore say that they were part-time or low-level operatives for the local intelligence services. Although reports are sketchy about what they were doing in relation to Mr Davis, security officials believe it could be the case of a surveillance operation gone horribly wrong. Pakistani intelligence services routinely tail and monitor all embassy staff, Western or otherwise.

*What about the second car and its victim?*

A side event to the main drama concerning Mr Davis was the fact a third man was also killed during the incident. He was an innocent bystander run over by a US embassy vehicle, which was initially said to have arrived to rescue Mr Davis. The fact that an embassy vehicle was able to get to the spot so quickly was a source of astonishment to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the geography of Lahore. Given the incident was over within minutes, it seems incredible that anyone could negotiate the 12km (7.4-mile) 40-minute drive in peak traffic in less than five minutes. But subsequent investigations have now shown that the second car - a Toyota Landcruiser - was with Mr Davis at the time of the incident. In fact, according to eyewitnesses, Mr Davis was leading and clearing the way for the Toyota when the incident took place. In the light of what happened afterwards, it seems Mr Davis was in "protective mode" and opened fire to "secure" whoever or whatever was in the Toyota - the interior of this vehicle was not visible as its windows were tinted. It is evident in local TV footage that the second vehicle is going away from Mr Davis at the time of the incident. As it disappears into the dust, Mr Davis calmly pulls over and gives himself up. Pakistani authorities have asked for the Landcruiser and its driver to be handed over - a request with which the US has yet to comply. 

*What about behind-the-scenes negotiations?*

As well as public pressure, US officials have also privately warned Pakistan's government of far-reaching and severe consequences if Mr Davis is convicted. Unnamed US officials have also used the media to issue veiled warnings to Pakistan that diplomatic ties could be cut and all aid stopped. Despite Islamabad's public stance on Mr Davis, Pakistani officials are said to have privately assured Washington that he will eventually be released. However, public pressure means that at the moment this could lead to a massive anti-government backlash. Pakistan's Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has hinted that blood money could be paid to the families of the two men Mr Davis admits shooting, which could enable his release. There is speculation that US officials may try to establish contacts with the families in this regard. However, it is not clear that Mr Davis has been charged under laws which would allow blood money to be paid.


BBC News - Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions

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## iPhone

Omar1984 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Initially, Davis, who is facing murder charges, misbehaved with Awans subordinates when they woke him up for breakfast around 8am. The officer said that he had just woken Davis up to tell him that some senior officers, transferred from other jails for the special duty, had brought him breakfast, but he flew into a rage. Senior officials tried to calm him down. But, instead of cooling down, Davis shouted in reply: You uncivilised fools dont even make good servants. Is this the method to serve?
> 
> On being informed, Jail Superintendent Awan arrived within no time and tried his best to placate Davis, who abused him also, saying: I am saying you should go now, bastard. The officer said that though the senior officers could understand what Davis was saying, they asked Awan, who tried to downplay it, saying: Davis was using meaningless slang.
> 
> 
> Will Lahore jail charge Raymond Davis with blasphemy|Islamabad Globe*


*

careful now, or he might turn into The Hulk. The guy looks like he's been abusing anabolic steroids. And he hasn't had a dose in almost a month, that could explain his fits of rage.*

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## American Eagle

iPhone said:


> careful now, or he might turn into The Hulk. The guy looks like he's been abusing anabolic steroids. And he hasn't had a dose in almost a month, that could explain his fits of rage.



This and other inflamatory remarks here today are false on their face and just more audience trying to "try" Mr. Davis on this otherwise good PDF site.

I ask the Administrators/Moderators of this site to remove such inflamatory and untrue postings here today. Thank you.

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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> This and other inflamatory remarks here today are false on their face and just more audience trying to "try" Mr. Davis on this otherwise good PDF site.
> 
> I ask the Administrators/Moderators of this site to remove such inflamatory and untrue postings here today. Thank you.


 
Oh please. Spare us this nonsense.

*If any mod decides to delete that post then i will quit this forum. *, Since they decided to leave your post where you defamed a dead innocent woman.

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## JonAsad

Mr Eagle-- Moderators here are not jail Superintendent like-- Awan-
You say it and they gona fulfill your wish- 
You should drop this rude and aggressive behavior- Its not gona work here and bad for your health too-

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## VCheng

For the umpteenth time,* I will request ALL to tone down their rhetoric*. It is surely counter-productive.


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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> For the umpteenth time,* I will request ALL to tone down their rhetoric*. It is surely counter-productive.


 
Fair sir, you thank the provocateur, yet you chastise us with a request to "tone down our rhetoric" as you so elequetly put it. I am all for looking at both sides of the coin, and i am all for level headedness, but that does not mean we let go of our *human dignity. *

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## Abu Zolfiqar

iPhone said:


> careful now, or he might turn into The Hulk. The guy looks like he's been abusing anabolic steroids. And he hasn't had a dose in almost a month, that could explain his fits of rage.


 
i believe they call this phenomenon ''Roid rage''

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## VCheng

RescueRanger said:


> Fair sir, you thank the provocateur, yet you chastise us with a request to "tone down our rhetoric" as you so elequetly put it. I am all for looking at both sides of the coin, and i am all for level headedness, but that does not mean we let go of our *human dignity. *


 
RR: I try to thank posts for their CONTENT, not who makes them. You can go back and check all my remarks and thanks in this thread, or anywhere else on PDF for that matter.

Also, please note that I asked for *ALL* to tone down the rhetoric, not one side or the other.

I do agree with your comment about Human Dignity, which is a *UNIVERSAL *right in my book.

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## Durrak

LAHORE: A court in Lahore extended US national Raymond Davis&#8217; remand to another 14 days in an illegal arms case, DawnNews reported.

The case was heard in the court of judicial magistrate Atique Anwar.

Davis, involved in killing two Pakistanis in Lahore last month, was not produced in the courtroom but was present for the hearing through video-conferencing.

Moreover, an American official was present in the courtroom to monitor the proceedings.

During the hearing, Prosecutor General Punjab requested the court to extend Davis&#8217; remand.

The court, accepting the request, adjourned the hearing to March 3.

Washington is demanding the man&#8217;s release, saying he has diplomatic immunity, as tempers run high in Pakistan over the incident.


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## raazh

American Eagle said:


> First please understand that I write from my home here in the SE USA. I am basically retired (but still do some small work occasionally as a consultant, and such). I normally enjoy current and past military exchanges, so this unhappy topic has been a new avenue where I feel honesty of purpose and American perspective are required so that those you who have a different culture and in some instances a different value sysytem can better understand where I, alone by perhaps atypical of the average Westerner, am coming from. ***Those of you living, studying, and/or working in European nations, Canada, or the US should know that we have largely the same legal process in general, but US juris prudence is perhaps the best worldwide as all charged invididuals have built in Constitutional rights that cannot be abridged, the same as Mr. Davis overseas has Internation Law, ie, Diplomatic Immunity, as a protection for himself until his home nation, with him depoted back to the US, can use it's legal system to investigate, evaluate, charge if appropriate, and if needs be then try Mr. Davis, should the facts then warrant a trial.
> 
> No one in their right mind disregards deaths by violence.
> 
> Aware US citizens genuinely grieve for the two deceased robbers and also for one of their widows who chose to take her own life. These are sensitive areas of human relationships we all should agree, but the emotions and sentiments are outside of the requirements to have Diplomatic Immunity involved not to merely "free up" Mr. Davis but to return him to his home country where our legal system can investigate and take whatever actions that can lead to a court charge and then a due process court case here.
> 
> The above comments by and from me require me to explain that I am a founder of the Chuck Colson Prison Fellowship here in Alabama and in the Greater Birmingham City Area. This says that laws in the US can incarcerate, even sentence to death found guilty persoons who are so found by our clear cut legal processes and system. But the people, even the found guilty people, are still the children of God and we work with them as long as it takes, and in the case of capial crimes committed with those on Death Row until the time of their legal execution here.
> 
> This simplified means we separate the sin from the sinner and seek eternal salvation for the sinner as my faith, Christianity (I am a Protestant) teaches if a man will genuinly and honestly repent of his sins God will forgive him. Thus even a found guilty person waiting for execution can have made a positive and binding peace with God to then know they have the Hope and Assurance of salvation and eternal life.
> 
> This said, if you can read the most recent three or four days of postings therein you will find that the US Department of State, US Embassy inside Pakitan, did authorize and required Mr. Davis to carry fire arms in conjunction with his diplomatic job.
> 
> That closes your fire arms found in Mr. Davis car question out as far as I am concerned in that Mr. Davis was faced with armed bandits who in his view threatened his life, limb, and cash. Please remember that Mr. Davis had just goten in plain public view cash at a Paksitani bank ATM.
> 
> I, me only, think the two robbers cased Mr. Davis getting cash from the ATM, and knowing that most Westerners carry cell phones, looked forward to stealing both his cash and his cell phones.
> 
> A pay slip which was posted onto this site and which first appeared in the Karachi DAWN this week is a fake, fraud, not genuine, and someone there is merely spreading false and faked information to try and cause unnecessary and falsified trouble for Mr. Davis.
> 
> How can I make these assertions from here in the USA?
> 
> I am a retired US Civil Service management official, with broad management personnel management experience over a 25 year federal civil service career from which I am now retired. I am also retired from 31 years in the Air Force Reserve, six years active duty, to include 18 months overseas US Embassy duty there in Pakistan, and 25 years in the paid USAF Reserve with duty my last 10 reserve years at the Joint Chiefs of Staff level as a Colonel.
> 
> I am used to and helped develop in our US Government (both in he the US Public Health Service and in the US Department of Veterans Affairs) contracting out employee paperwork.  All this was discussed by me several, many days ago on this thread.
> 
> Boiled down The company Mr. Davis is with, which he and his wife may very well own as a simple partnership, the company, not the Person of Mr. Davis, contracts with the US State Dept. This causes the State Dept. to have a career diplomatic employee was long as State actively contracts with the company which in turn furnishes to the US Dept. of State. This fact tells me, and I now voluntarily share with you, that as State pays the company to supply Mr. Davis then State classifies Mr. Davis as it's diplomat as part of their administrative and technical staff. Mr. Davis is as much a diplomat with DI standing as any other US State Dept. He now is an employee, ie, as in a diplomat, as are other US Dept of State otherwise admistrative or technical staffers.
> 
> Here again US law understands the ins and outs. It may have taken the Pakistani Foreign Office a while to understand the above legal facts to then issue the FO letter to the Paksitani Interior Ministry acknowledging that Mr. Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. But clearly the Pakistani Foreign Office now understands these personnel ins and out unique to the US Government, all departmens, commissions, boards thereof.
> 
> Reading all the facts concering the two robbers per Pakistani police report had 5 cell phones between them, two of which matched up with the just robbed same day honorable Pakistani 2 gentlemen, whose phones (1 each) and cash, amount in Pakistani currency spelled out in Police report but I forget the amount...point is the two Pakistani gentlemen's phones and cash were recovered by Police in Lahore same day at the scene of the failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis. "Hot stolen goods" is what describes in US terms was found on the persons of the two robbers after the Davis event.
> 
> I have tried to oblidge, to analyze, part of your questions but I stop now and point out again the legal process many of you may not be familiar with.
> 
> Any diplomat as defined by Article 31 of the Geneva Convention on status of diplomats vs. local laws and customs abroad, as well as associatred Treaties, Mr. Davis has 100% diplomatic immunity so further details and processes should await his return to the USA, where US authorities will then investigate the entire scenario after Diplomatic Immunity has first been obeyed.
> 
> Senator Kerry promised US Justice Dept. complete and thorough investigation once Davis is retured per Diplomatic Immunity to US. This statement in the worldwide media worldwide was made with the full recognition that President Obama charged Senator Kerry to act as his special envoy for Kerry's current visit to Pakistan.
> 
> American justice always, not sometimes, but always presumes innocent until proven guilty. Thus Mr. Davis will most likely be kept on a short leash once back in the US and be before US justice and court system on an expedited basis would be my best guess.
> 
> Politely put but factually meant the courts inside Pakistan due to Mr. Davis having DI as now vouched for in writing by the Pakistani Foreign Office and as further certified as having 100% Diplomtic Immunity by the US State Dept. do not and did never in terms of Internaional Law have jurisdiction over Mr. Davis. The Pakistani FO letter has worldwide standing and is the valid and proper within Pakistan response. This FO letter from yesterday recognizes on behalf of the Pakistan Government Mr. Davis as having full, 100%, Diplomatic Immunity. That is not to say that Mr. Davis walks away when returned to the US.
> 
> Once back in the USA Mr. Davis will face an full and through judical review, charging if deemed appropirate, and then a court case process for trail, if that is what our laws decide is the right course of action. All of the US legal proceedings you can be assured will be covered daily in the worldwide media for you to continue tracking Mr. Davis under US legal due process.
> 
> Summarized Pakistan has a very different legal system, which has recently contributed to things like President Musharraf resigning from office, and ways and means of practicing law that differs from the US legal system. This is why any nation's diplomat has DI so that anyone involved in such a scenario as Mr. Davis will face proper justice review and associated actions, future tense, under the proper laws of his home nation.
> 
> Have a good day.




This is a typical US citizen frame of mind. They believe that they are the most innocent and educated self rightoeus folks in the world. But then americans wonder why their country is the mosted hated in the whole world. Please understand that YOUR Agencies are playing havoc all over the world. Dont believe what you see in controlled media. If your nation stand against your agencies like the Egypt revolution .. "THE WHOLE WORLD CAN BECOME A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE" .

PEACE

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## iPhone

American Eagle said:


> This and other inflammatory remarks here today are false on their face and just more audience trying to "try" Mr. Davis on this otherwise good PDF site.
> 
> I ask the Administrators/Moderators of this site to remove such inflammatory and untrue postings here today. Thank you.



oh common man, what inflammatory remark I made? that he "might" be on roids? is it that uncommon for a man in his line of work to be taking a little extra "juice" to acute and hone his skills?


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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i believe they call this phenomenon ''Roid rage''



With all due respect Sir, please note that RD is, at this point, only accused of crimes and a legal and official process in under way.

In any robust system of justice, the accused is entitled to a presumption of innocence, unless and until proven otherwise.

RD, for all his alleged crimes, is NOT a drug crazed maniac who can be blithely assumed to have killed for no good reasons.

Just like all of us here, he had a job and a duty to fulfill, and dedicated service to one's country is patriotism, and thus must be respected at all times.

After all, soldiers must respect all fallen and incarcerated soldiers no matter which side they belonged too, right?

Please also note that I mean no disrespect to the deceased at all. Their loss is a tragedy too, for whole families, and this must not also be forgotten.


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## Durrak

*ISLAMABAD: The Prime Minister, Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, on Thursday restricted the federal ministers from issuing any statements without prior consent on Raymond Davis issue, as the matter was sub judice.*

Gilani said, while addressing the first official meeting of the newly reformed Cabinet that the Federal Cabinet was reshuffled with the coalition partners and opposition&#8217;s consent and that it had complete trust of the Co-Chairman, Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP,) Asif Ali Zardari.

He said that the whole nation is looking at the Cabinet to take right steps in order to get the country out of the troubles.

The government was under huge domestic pressure to implement a raft of reforms, in order to head off any possible threat of a call for early elections from opposition leader and former prime minister Nawaz Sharif.


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## American Eagle

Thank you VCheng for your forthright, calm, and factual comments to me. 

AE

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## Moorkh

The Threat of Civil Unrest in Pakistan and the Davis Case | STRATFOR



> By Scott Stewart
> 
> On Feb. 13, the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) issued a statement demanding that the government of Pakistan execute U.S. government contractor Raymond Davis or turn him over to the TTP for judgment. Davis, a contract security officer for the CIA, has been in Pakistani custody since a Jan. 27 incident in which he shot two men who reportedly pointed a pistol at him in an apparent robbery attempt.
> 
> Pakistani officials have corroborated Davis&#8217; version of events and, according to their preliminary report, Davis appears to have acted in self-defense. From a tactical perspective, the incident appears to have been (in tactical security parlance) a &#8220;good shoot,&#8221; but the matter has been taken out of the tactical realm and has become mired in transnational politics and Pakistani public sentiment. Whether the shooting was justified or not, Davis has now become a pawn in a larger game being played out between the United States and Pakistan.
> 
> When one considers the way similar periods of tension between the Pakistanis and Americans have unfolded in the past, it is not unreasonable to conclude that as this current period plays out, it could have larger consequences for Davis and for American diplomatic facilities and commercial interests in Pakistan. Unless the Pakistani government is willing and able to defuse the situation, the case could indeed provoke violent protests against the United States, and U.S. citizens and businesses in Pakistan should be prepared for this backlash.
> 
> Details of the Case
> 
> One of the reasons that the Pakistanis have been able to retain Davis in custody is that while he may have been traveling on a &#8220;black&#8221; diplomatic U.S. passport, not everyone who holds a diplomatic passport is afforded full diplomatic immunity. The only people afforded full diplomatic immunity are those who are on a list of diplomats officially accredited as diplomatic agents by the receiving country. The rest of the foreign employees at an embassy or a consulate in the receiving country who are not on the diplomatic list and who are not accredited as diplomatic agents under the Vienna Convention are only protected by functional immunity. This means they are only protected from prosecution related to their official duties.
> 
> As a contract employee assigned to the U.S. Consulate in Lahore, Davis was likely not on the diplomatic list and probably did not enjoy full diplomatic immunity. He was probably considered a member of the administrative or technical staff. Protecting himself during a robbery attempt would not be considered part of his official function in the country, and therefore his actions that day would not be covered under functional immunity. So determining exactly what level of immunity Davis was provided will be critical in this case, and the information provided by the Pakistani Foreign Ministry will have a big impact on the Pakistani judge hearing the arguments.
> 
> In all likelihood, Davis was briefed regarding his legal status by his company and by the CIA prior to being assigned to post. He also would have been told that, while he had limited immunity, the U.S. government would do its best to take care of him if some incident occurred. However, it would have been made clear to him that in working as a protective contractor he was running a risk and that if there was an incident on or off duty, he could wind up in trouble. All security contractors working overseas know this and accept the risk as part of the job.
> 
> At the time of the shooting, of course, Davis would not have had time to leisurely ponder this potential legal quagmire. He saw a threat and reacted to it. Undoubtedly, the U.S. government will do all it can to help Davis out &#8212; especially since the case appears to be a good-shoot scenario and not a case of negligence or bad judgment. Indeed, on Feb. 15, U.S. Sen. John Kerry flew to Islamabad in a bid to seek Davis&#8217; release. However, in spite of American efforts and international convention, Davis&#8217; case is complicated greatly by the fact that he was working in Pakistan and by the current state of U.S.-Pakistani relations.
> 
> Tensions
> 
> Over the past few years, relations between the United States and Pakistan have been very strained. This tension has been evidenced not only by public opinion but also by concrete examples. For example, in mid-December, the CIA station chief in Islamabad was forced to leave the country after his name was disclosed in a class-action lawsuit brought by relatives of civilians killed by unmanned aerial vehicle strikes in the Pakistani tribal badlands.
> 
> It was no coincidence that the Pakistani lawsuit against the CIA station chief occurred shortly after the head of Pakistan&#8217;s Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, was accused in a civil lawsuit of being involved in the 2008 attacks in Mumbai. The suit was brought in U.S. District Court in Brooklyn by family members of the American rabbi killed alongside his wife in Mumbai by Pakistan-based Islamist militants.
> 
> Like Iraq, Pakistan is a country that has seen considerable controversy over American security contractors over the past several years. The government of Pakistan has gone after security contractor companies like DynCorp and its Pakistani affiliate InterRisk and Xe (formerly known as Blackwater), which has become the Pakistani version of the bogeyman. In addition to the clandestine security and intelligence work the company was conducting in Pakistan, in 2009 the Taliban even began to blame Xe for suicide bombing attacks that killed civilians. The end result is that American security contractors have become extremely unpopular in Pakistan. They are viewed not only as an affront to Pakistani sovereignty but also as trigger-happy killers.
> The Threat of Civil Unrest in Pakistan and the Davis Case
> ASIF HASSAN/AFP/Getty Images
> Activists from the Pakistani Islamist party Jamaat-e-Islami during a protest rally in Karachi on Feb. 11
> 
> And this is the environment in which the Davis shooting occurred. Even though some Pakistani civilians apparently came forward and reported that they had been robbed at gunpoint by the men Davis shot, other Pakistani groups like the Jamaat-ud-Dawah (JuD) &#8212; the successor to the Lashkar-e-Taiba, which was presumably banned by the Pakistani government &#8212; have demanded that Davis be hanged. The Jamaat-e-Islami (JeI), an Islamist political party, has also demanded that Davis be hanged and has called for large protests if he is released without a court order. As noted above, TTP spokesman Azam Tarik made a statement demanding that the Pakistani government either hang Davis or hand him over to them. Interest in this issue is not just confined to Islamist groups. There are some right-wing conservative nationalists and even some secular liberals who are asking: &#8220;If the United States can give CIA shooter Mir Amal Kansi the death penalty, why can&#8217;t Pakistan do the same thing to Davis?&#8221;
> 
> The result is that the Davis case has aroused much controversy and passion in Pakistan. This not only complicates the position of the Pakistani government but also raises the distinct possibility that there will be civil unrest if Davis is released.
> 
> Civil Unrest in Pakistan
> 
> Like many parts of the developing world, civil unrest in Pakistan can quickly turn to extreme violence. One example that must certainly be on the minds of the security personnel at the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. consulates in Pakistan is the November 1979 incident in which an enraged mob seized and destroyed the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad. While there were only two Americans killed in that incident &#8212; a Marine security guard shot as he stood on the roof of the embassy and an Army warrant officer who died when an apartment building on the embassy compound was torched &#8212; the fire that the mob set inside the building very nearly killed all the employees who had sought shelter in the embassy&#8217;s inner safe-haven area. Two local Pakistani staff members were also killed in the fire.
> 
> The 1979 attack was said to have been sparked by reports that the U.S. government was behind an assault on the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Saudi militants the day before. In reality, the mob that stormed and torched the U.S. Embassy was at least tolerated, if not orchestrated, by the Pakistani government, which was angry that the United States cut off financial aid to the country in April 1979. Not only did the Pakistani government facilitate the busing of large numbers of protesters to the U.S. Embassy, its security forces also stood aside and refused to protect the embassy from the onslaught of the angry mob. The embassy assault was Pakistan&#8217;s not-so-subtle way of sending a message to the U.S. government.
> 
> But U.S. diplomatic facilities have not been the only targets of civil unrest in Pakistan. Following the assassination of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, angry mobs attacked not only security forces but also foreign businesses, banks, shops and gasoline stations in the cities of Karachi, Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Quetta and throughout the province of Sindh, Bhutto&#8217;s home province.
> 
> Similarly, in February 2006 during the unrest generated by the Mohammed cartoon fiasco, mobs in Islamabad, Peshawar, Karachi and Lahore attacked a wide range of Western business targets. The worst of this violence occurred in Lahore, where a rampaging mob burned down four buildings housing the four-star Ambassador Hotel, two banks, a KFC restaurant franchise and the regional office of Telenor, a Norwegian cell phone company. The protesters also damaged about 200 cars and several storefronts and threw stones through the windows of a McDonald&#8217;s restaurant, a Pizza Hut and a Holiday Inn. Lahore, incidentally, is where the Davis shooting occurred.
> 
> Forecast
> 
> Based on this history, the current tension between the United States and Pakistan, public sentiment in Pakistan regarding U.S. security contractors and the possibility of groups like JuD and JeI attempting to take advantage of the situation, there is a very real possibility that Davis&#8217; release could spark mob violence in Pakistan (and specifically Lahore). Even if the Pakistani government does try to defuse the situation, there are other parties who will attempt to stir up violence.
> 
> Due to the widespread discontent over the issue of U.S. security contractors in Pakistan, if protests do follow the release of Davis, they can be expected to be similar to the protests that followed the Mohammed cartoon case, i.e., they will cut across ethnic and sectarian lines and present a widespread threat.
> 
> Physical security measures such as concrete barriers, standoff distances and security cameras can add to a facility&#8217;s defenses against a terrorist attack, but they really do not pose much of an obstacle to an angry mob intent on overrunning a property &#8212; especially if local and indigenous security forces are unwilling or unable to intervene in a timely fashion and the mob has the time and latitude to assault the facility for a prolonged period. The protesters can scale barriers and their overwhelming numbers can render most security measures useless. Barriers such as hard-line doors can provide some delay, but they can be breached by assailants who possess tools and time.
> 
> Additionally, if protesters are able to set fire to the building, as happened at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad in 1979, a safe-haven can become a death trap, especially if the mob can take control of the secondary escape hatch as it did in that incident, trapping the Americans inside the safe-haven.
> 
> Commercial facilities are, by their very nature, far more accessible &#8212; and far more vulnerable &#8212; to mob violence than diplomatic facilities. A commercial facility can present a tempting soft target to those who wish to attack a symbol of America without tackling a hard target like a U.S. diplomatic facility, which is designed and built to comply with stringent security standards. If a mob storms a hotel, the local staff will be unable to protect the guests, and conceivably could leave the guests to fend for themselves in the confusion and chaos of a riot. Even worse, they could even facilitate attacks against Americans by pointing them out or providing their room numbers.
> 
> Any person identified as an American by such an angry mob could quickly find himself or herself in dire danger. While Americans working for the U.S. government can expect to have some security assistance in getting back to the embassy or to another secure location, non-officials may be left to fend for themselves, especially if they are not registered with the embassy. Non-officials are also not required to abide by the same security rules as officials. While many non-officials consider the U.S. State Department&#8217;s security rules to be onerous at times, during troubled periods these conservative security rules often serve to keep diplomats out of harm&#8217;s way.
> 
> Once a mob attacks, there often is little that can be done &#8212; especially if the host government either cannot or will not take action to protect the facility being attacked. At that point, the focus should be on preventing injuries and saving lives &#8212; without regard to the physical property. In most cases, when a mob attacks a multinational corporation, it is attacking a symbolic target. KFC restaurants, for example, have been frequent targets of attacks in Pakistan because of the company&#8217;s association with the United States. In many cases, multinational franchises such as KFC and even some hotels are owned by locals and not Americans, but that does not matter to the mobs, which see nothing but a U.S. symbol.
> 
> When an issue such as the Mohammed cartoons, the Bhutto assassination or the release of Raymond Davis spirals into violent protests, the only real precaution that many companies can take is to escape the area and avoid loss of life. The best defense is to use good intelligence in order to learn about the protests in advance, to track them when they occur and then to evacuate personnel before they can be affected by the violence.
> 
> U.S. diplomatic facilities and business interests in Pakistan are almost certainly reviewing their contingency plans right now and planning for the worst-case scenario. During such times, vigilance and preparation are vital, as is a constant flow of updated intelligence pertaining to potential demonstrations. Such intelligence can provide time for an evacuation or allow other proactive security measures to be taken. With the current tension between Pakistan and the United States, there might not be much help coming when the next wave of unrest erupts, so keeping ahead of potential protests is critically important.
> 
> Read more: The Threat of Civil Unrest in Pakistan and the Davis Case | STRATFOR


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## American Eagle

The below THE NATION newspaper there in Pakistan short article today is intersting. FYI.

Thursday, Feb. 17, 2011 THE NATION newspaper in Pakistan



> US urges Pak to follow its international obligations
> Submitted 3 hrs 53 mins ago
> 
> US has asserted that courts in Pakistan have no jurisdiction over Raymond Davis, who is accused of killing two persons in Lahore, and he needs to be released immediately as he has diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention.
> 
> "We believe that diplomatic immunity (to Davis) is a fact. From our standpoint, it is not a matter in dispute. It's certainly not a matter that should be resolved by courts in Pakistan," State Department spokesman P J Crowley told reporters at his daily news conference.
> 
> Noting that there will be a hearing at the Lahore High Court today, Crowley said the US will present a petition to the court that he in fact has diplomatic immunity.


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## Leviza

American Eagle said:


> The below THE NATION newspaper there in Pakistan short article today is intersting. FYI.


 
just wanted to say one thing here...

truth is not always what USA believe in.......also immunity to Davis need to be confirmed by FO and Court now.... say thing what ever you want to but the FACT IS HE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE IN LAHORE AND WILL SEE HIS FATE NOW.....i think message is very clear to USA now


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## VCheng

This is the real human cost of this tragedy, and I want ALL to respect their grief too:


from: Grieving families caught in Pakistan-US storm | | DAWN.COM

LAHORE:* Grieving families of the Pakistanis who died after a US official opened fire in Lahore have been swept up in a political storm inflamed by hardline Islamists and conspiracy theories.*

Raymond Davis, a reported security contractor who Washington says is a diplomat, sparked the latest crisis in Pakistani-US affairs when he shot dead two men carrying guns on motorbikes at a busy traffic junction on January 27.

*Washington says he acted in self-defence and President Barack Obama has called for his immediate release on grounds of diplomatic immunity.*

A court in Lahore on Thursday put off ruling on whether the American had immunity until March 14.

Police accuse Davis of cold-blooded murder and religious hardliners, already out defending controversial blasphemy laws, have taken to the streets afresh clamouring for Davis to be executed.

*The US response to the shootings has been heavily criticised with many Pakistanis saying expressions of regret were too little too late.*

*Relatives say that neither Pakistani nor US officials came to console them*, but Jamaat-ud-Dawa, a charity considered a front for those behind the 2008 Mumbai attacks and blacklisted by the United Nations, have offered support.

&#8220;They have extended support to us and they are saying we are with you against America because America has done all wrong,&#8221; said a brother of Faizan Haider, one of those killed by Davis, in reference to Jamaat-ud-Dawa and religious party Jamaat-e-Islami.

The brother, Imran Haider, 34, told AFP at his home in a working-class neighbourhood in Lahore that the family had joined political rallies organised by religious groups calling for Davis to stand trial.

The United States has confirmed neither Davis&#8217; name nor the precise nature of his assignment.

&#8220;We believe Davis is not a diplomat, he&#8217;s a spy. If he&#8217;s a diplomat why hasn&#8217;t the government said that yet? It&#8217;s fishy,&#8221; Imran said.

Media reports have claimed he had a background in the US Special Forces, worked for a security contractor, that he was in contact with the Taliban and even that the two men he shot dead were Pakistani intelligence agents.

In an indication of the level of suspicion in the country, Imran believes that some of the mourners who came to pay their respects and asked whether the family would accept compensation were in fact envoys sent by the Americans.

Lawyers linked to Islamic groups have agreed to represent the families of the two men shot dead, and that of a third man, Ibadur Rehman, who was killed when a US consulate car sent to rescue Davis knocked him down.

*Rehman&#8217;s brother, Aijazur Rehman, said no authorities have offered his family information on who drove the car that killed his brother.

He acknowledged the case was being manipulated by political groups.*

&#8220;We understand that, but we need some platform to take our voice up front,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;You can&#8217;t do anything on your own. They come out for agitation and arrange services. They invite us and we go &#8211; it&#8217;s all parties, not just religious.&#8221;

&#8220;We want to see the faces of those people who were in that vehicle. We have no enmity with America, we are seeking justice for our brother, nothing else.&#8221;

One senior US official characterised media speculation about the incident as &#8220;unbelievable&#8221; but expressed hope that Kerry&#8217;s visit could help to mend the diplomatic row.

*Although some have predicted massive protests and a serious backlash if Davis is released, others have played down any potential fallout.

&#8220;They&#8217;re simply prolonging the agony of the affected families,&#8221; said Pakistani analyst Imtiaz Gul of right-wing religious groups.

&#8220;They&#8217;re simply exploiting the emotions of the affected families to turn it into an anti-American campaign, but I don&#8217;t think the majority of Pakistanis support them.&#8221;*


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## JonAsad

VCheng said:


> *Relatives say that neither Pakistani nor US officials came to console them*,* but Jamaat-ud-Dawa, a charity considered a front for those behind the 2008 Mumbai attacks and blacklisted by the United Nations, have offered support.*
> 
> &#8220;They have extended support to us and they are saying we are with you against America because America has done all wrong,&#8221; said a brother of Faizan Haider, one of those killed by Davis, in reference to Jamaat-ud-Dawa and religious party Jamaat-e-Islami.


 
At least some one is there to console them--

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## American Eagle

Here we ago again with misinformation and untruths on this otherwise good website PDF.

The GOP promptly sent people to condole and talk with the families of the two deceased robbers. If folks would take the time to read back in this now very long thread this fact can be found.

Or anyone can go a Pakistani news website, such as DAWN or Lahore Times Express...and look up the GOP contacts with the families up for themselves.

Thanks for in future doing your research before you make statements to the contrary.


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## DV RULES

VCheng said:


> With all due respect Sir, please note that RD is, at this point, only accused of crimes and a legal and official process in under way.
> 
> In any robust system of justice, the accused is entitled to a presumption of innocence, unless and until proven otherwise.
> 
> RD, for all his alleged crimes, is NOT a drug crazed maniac who can be blithely assumed to have killed for no good reasons.
> 
> Just like all of us here, he had a job and a duty to fulfill, and dedicated service to one's country is patriotism, and thus must be respected at all times.
> 
> After all, soldiers must respect all fallen and incarcerated soldiers no matter which side they belonged too, right?
> 
> Please also note that I mean no disrespect to the deceased at all. Their loss is a tragedy too, for whole families, and this must not also be forgotten.


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## JonAsad

American Eagle said:


> Here we ago again with misinformation and untruths on this otherwise good website PDF.
> 
> The GOP promptly sent people to condole and talk with the families of the two deceased robbers. If folks would take the time to read back in this now very long thread this fact can be found.
> 
> Or anyone can go a Pakistani news website, such as *DAWN *or Lahore Times Express...and look up the GOP contacts with the families up for themselves.
> 
> Thanks for in future doing your research before you make statements to the contrary.


 
The article you are talking about is from your favorite site- DAWN NEWS 



> The brother, Imran Haider, 34, told AFP at his home in a working-class neighbourhood in Lahore that the family had joined political rallies organised by religious groups calling for Davis to stand trial.
> 
> The United States has confirmed neither Davis&#8217; name nor the precise nature of his assignment.
> 
> &#8220;We believe Davis is not a diplomat, he&#8217;s a spy. If he&#8217;s a diplomat why hasn&#8217;t the government said that yet? It&#8217;s fishy,&#8221; Imran said.



These are the quotes of non other than victim's Brothers- The family- 
How can you just try to impose that GoP did console them- even trying is just stupidity-

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## American Eagle

This article is copied and pasted from CNN World News on line, dated 4 Feb, 2011, for your background info. AE

Pakistani men shot by U.S. envoy likely robbers, Pakistani police say
KARACHI 

Share this on:Mixx Facebook Twitter Digg delicious reddit MySpace StumbleUpon LinkedIn February 04, 2011|By the CNN Wire Staff

U.S. diplomat Raymond Davis has been in jail since killing two Pakistani boys he claims were robbers on January 27 in Lahore.Evidence found on the bodies of two men killed by a now-jailed U.S. diplomat aligns with the State Department's claim that the men were robbers, according to a Pakistani police official.

Raymond Davis, who works at the U.S. consulate in Lahore, Pakistan, has been jailed since January 27, when authorities say he shot and killed two men on a motorcycle. Davis said the men attacked him while trying to rob him as he drove through a busy neighborhood, according to the U.S. Embassy in Pakistan.


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When police searched the bodies, they found stolen cell phones and cash that belonged to two men who had reported being robbed earlier that day by two gunmen on a motorcycle, a Pakistani police official told CNN.

The official identified the dead men as Faheem Shamshad, 26, and Faizan Haider, 22.

Their families filed police reports accusing Davis of murder, a police spokesman said.

A third person, Muhammad Abad ur Rehman, allegedly was struck and killed by a U.S. consulate car responding to the shooting. Police are investigating the death, but the U.S. Embassy has not revealed the identity of the person driving that car despite calls from Pakistani authorities to do so.

On Thursday, a judge in Lahore ordered the government to hold Davis for at least eight more days and place his name on an exit control list to ensure he does not leave the country.

In a statement on its website, the U.S. Embassy in Pakistan said its employee shot two armed men in self-defense and renewed its call for the Pakistani government to release him, saying he is entitled to diplomatic immunity.

Speculation in the Pakistani media has suggested that Davis was traveling on a business visa and that he was consequently not subject to diplomatic protections.

U.S. officials notified Pakistan's Foreign Ministry that the employee was in the country on diplomatic business, and details about his passport and visa were irrelevant, countered acting U.S. embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale.

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Wednesday that the U.S. government is in "constant contact" with the Pakistan government.

"We continue to encourage the government of Pakistan to respect his diplomatic immunity and to release him," Crowley said.

Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari urged people not to use the incident for "political point scoring," spokesman Farhatullah Babar said.

"The president said that the government had taken a principled position, that the matter was before the judiciary whose verdict should be awaited and respected," Babar said.

The case has sparked some protest and fueled anti-American sentiments in Pakistan.

During several protests this week, hard-line clerics condemned the shootings and demanded the government not release Davis to the U.S. government.

Local television showed a rally in Karachi where protesters re-enacted their version of shooting incident. Men wearing smiling masks and holding toy guns played the part of Davis and gleefully danced around several protesters who pretended to be the shooting victims.


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## American Eagle

US urges Pak to follow its international obligations

Submitted 5 hrs 19 mins ago Thursday, Feb. 17, 2011 dateline

US has asserted that courts in Pakistan have no jurisdiction over Raymond Davis, who is accused of killing two persons in Lahore, and he needs to be released immediately as he has diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention. "We believe that diplomatic immunity (to Davis) is a fact. From our standpoint, it is not a matter in dispute. It's certainly not a matter that should be resolved by courts in Pakistan," State Department spokesman P J Crowley told reporters at his daily news conference. Noting that there will be a hearing at the Lahore High Court today, Crowley said the US will present a petition to the court that he in fact has diplomatic immunity.


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## American Eagle

Same wire story also appears today in the Pakistani daily newspaper THE NATION. Thanks for letting me know the same story is being carried in several different Pakistani daily newspapers there. AE


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## JonAsad

> Pakistani men shot by U.S. envoy* likely* robbers, Pakistani police say



just like raymond is most unlikely a diplomat-

Between 3 feb and 17 feb- lots of developments have taken place-- for example some are saying they were Pak intelligence operatives-- and the post mortem report saying there were 7-9 shots in the victims back- dont know why you cant go beyond 3feb--


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## JonAsad

*Pak refusal of Davis immunity disappoints US: Munter*



> The US ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter, said Thursday that the US is disappointed the Pakistani government did not certify that Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity. In a statement, Munter said the U.S. has made its position on the case clear. Lahore High Court has delayed until next month a ruling on whether the Davis has diplomatic immunity.


Pak refusal of Davis immunity disappoints US: Munter | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## HRK

American Eagle said:


> Here we ago again with misinformation and untruths on this otherwise good website PDF.
> 
> The GOP promptly sent people to condole and talk with the families of the *two deceased robbers*. If folks would take the time to read back in this now very long thread this fact can be found.
> 
> Or anyone can go a Pakistani news website, such as DAWN or Lahore Times Express...and look up the GOP contacts with the families up for themselves.
> 
> Thanks for in future doing your research before you make statements to the contrary.




Two robbers one was shoot from behind and other from the distance of 50 feet&#8217;s when he was trying to save his life. A true Hollywood style action thriller story, and what about the third one for what he was been murdered by other US operatives.


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## JonAsad

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> Two robbers one was shoot from behind and other from the distance of 50 feet&#8217;s when he was trying to save his life. A true Hollywood style action thriller story, and what about the third one for what he was been murdered by other US operatives.


 
Yup the two accused robbers were shot by an american terrorist- and the third innocent by the terrorists vehicle-


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## VCheng

VCheng said:


> With all due respect Sir, please note that RD is, at this point, only accused of crimes and a legal and official process in under way.
> 
> *In any robust system of justice, the accused is entitled to a presumption of innocence, unless and until proven otherwise.*
> 
> RD, for all his alleged crimes, is NOT a drug crazed maniac who can be blithely assumed to have killed for no good reasons.
> 
> *Just like all of us here, he had a job and a duty to fulfill, and dedicated service to one's country is patriotism, and thus must be respected at all times*.
> 
> After all, soldiers must respect all fallen and incarcerated soldiers no matter which side they belonged too, right?
> 
> *Please also note that I mean no disrespect to the deceased at all. Their loss is a tragedy too, for whole families, and this must not also be forgotten*.





DV RULES said:


>



Why the emoticons? Please read *all *my words again, particulary the bolded ones, and try to accept that* fairness and truth MUST apply to both sides.*


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## was

if a pakistani consular worker did all this.he would be already on the electric chair or life imprisoned.this country is a us colony now, shah mehmood qureshi,s removal its an example.god save us from america

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## MastanKhan

Asim Aquil said:


> Mastaan sahab, it is really confusing, if such statements are being given by a selective type of Pakistanis to alert the Pakistani public to stand up to this injustice or is it being done to infuse some sort of conciliatory thought in the Pakistani mindset that "that things are so bad so there is no use fighting for the right things".
> 
> I can't help but realize that this selective group, be it Sami Shah's I Spy article, be it the loyalists of the PPP, be it the doomsday warnings on the forums - its certainly starting to look like a concientious effort to some how degalvanize the Pakistani populace that is right now fighting the most important battle for its sovereignty.


 
Hi Asim,

In this 3D version of events---there is a third side of the frame as well. Where even though as much nationalistic sentiments I have---I have to see what has happend without prejudice and keep the focus on the issue in itself.

We know that 2 people were shot----the initial reports by police declared that those two were robbers with guns and loaded magazines. I personally have no qualms against the shootings of those two individuals under those circumstances.

The police chief Tareen's statement that there was a loaded magazine in each of the two pistols of the culprtis but no bullet in the chambers---holds no value in any court of law anywhere in the world----as a matter----it becomes a shameful act of deception by a police officer to show prejudice against an individual.

So---to try this man for murder is preposterous and deceitful---basically pakiatnis want to punish Raymond Davis for the sins committed by the american millitary against pakistan---like killings in drone attacks etc etc etc.

Every individual has a right to defend himself---and after saying that---here is what pakistan needs to focus on----Davis was not authorized to carry a handgun in pakistan under any pakistani authority----secondly all other paraphernalia that he had needed to be assessed---he had photos of sensitive areas on his phone or he had connection to people in waziristan---then those areas need to be persued in an appropriate manner and if there are any charges to be placed---that is where we need to look at---.

Killing two highwaymen in self defence is not a criminal act----this issue has been politicized by the punjab govt for personal gains and the crowds riled up into a fury by the PML N---.

If Davis needs to be punished---he needs to be punished for other things and not for the two killings per say---now---as far as diplomatic immunity goes---he's got noe---otherwise the proof would have been in front of the court by now---.

The PPP govt is done for now----Shah Mahmood Q is going to be the future hero of PPP---Zardari and Gilani are on their way out---and so is davis----. The pak courts can charge him and sentence him and then he can be declared a persona no grata and kicked out of pakistan and handed over to the U S govt so that they can carry out the remaining sentence.

What the U S govt wants to do with him later on---it is upto them---. 

Pakistan had to prove a point---and we have done that so far---. But the pakistani mentality is that when you stab someone---you have to have a hand behind the dagger---. Pakistanis need to grow out of this man behind the machine thing---. There are many other ways to prove your point and we have utilized them as well.

Now---as far as the american news papers go---I read them at their face value----some of their articles may seem to be truthful on the surface but may have a different agenda in the core. 


Now tell me Asim=---if pakistanis are so holy---honest and consciencious of their rights----why have they not stood up for the Mukhtar Mai and her brother---who were gang raped and sodo-mized----why the paks have not shown any disgust to that act and asked for the hangings of the perforators----we have child molestations and child murders every other day----where is your honor and courage and right and fight for justice hiding at that time---we have highway robberies at random---in the city---on thew freeways----why don't the justice system come in and gie capitol punishment to those to give the society and safe passage to do their daily chores----.


You know----this act of nationalism on the pakistanis is very convenient and selective----we live with the MASJID A SHAB BHAR syndrome all our lives---. Whereas---we should have stood up and condemned the two culprits for trying their high handedness and thanking Davis for showing some light and courage to the nation to take charge----we are acting other wise----taking the side of the criminals----YOU KNOW WHY SIR----BECAUSE IN OUR HEARTS AND SOULS WE ARE CRIMINALS----just waiting for the oppurtune moment to make our strike.

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## SekrutYakhni

*"Now tell me Asim=---if pakistanis are so holy---honest and consciencious of their rights----why have they not stood up for the Mukhtar Mai and her brother---who were gang raped and sodo-mized----why the paks have not shown any disgust to that act and asked for the hangings of the perforators----we have child molestations and child murders every other day----where is your honor and courage and right and fight for justice hiding at that time---we have highway robberies at random---in the city---on thew freeways----why don't the justice system come in and gie capitol punishment to those to give the society and safe passage to do their daily chores----."*

Well, I sort of agree with you but you mixed a social issue with a national, more so an international. The U.S. is using predator drones on Mexico border but they are only there for surveillance, not armed. However, the U.S. is using the same armed drones in other countries, why?

Look, there are national/social issues involved if they were to use the armed version in the U.S. As a matter of fact, Americans jumped hard on that 'weapons of mass destruction' theory; however, it was a false intelligence. Where was the regret from the people who supported it? 

In conclusion, don't mix social issues of a country to a geopolitical situation.


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## r3alist

No, you only request that with Pakistanis. Sometimes with justification, but you're not a teacher, so stop behaving like, we have mods who do a good job here. Either that, or you are trying to score brownie points, please do that in another space, or change the flags by your name.


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## MastanKhan

saad445566 said:


> [
> Look, there are national/social issues involved if they were to use the armed version in the U.S. As a matter of fact, Americans jumped hard on that 'weapons of mass destruction' theory; however, it was a false intelligence. Where was the regret from the people who supported it?
> 
> In conclusion, don't mix social issues of a country to a geopolitical situation.


 
Hi,

why don't you tell it to the families of the innocent children and the families of the rape and sodomy victims----.

SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside.

The people and the world judges us and our character from what we do to our own and dear ones---that is what the world knows us by---and when an international issue comes up----all this dirt and that we have burried in our backyard---comes to the surface.

Nations look at us us and look at the legal precedence that we have setup in the past---the analysts will dig out all the dirt that they have about our legal system and throw it at our faces and let the world see it for itslef.

Social issues and geo-political issues sometimes are extremely close to each other than what one may want to admit.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> Exactly, which is why Senator Kerry has said RD will face trial in the USA where he is under jurisdiction properly.


 
I find that claim by Kerry to be disingenuous, as was Obama's that the US is not being 'callous about the loss of life'. The US is being callous about the loss of Pakistani life, because we haven't heard a peep about investigating and punishing the driver of the vehicle that killed an innocent bystander, and even Kerry's offer to investigate Davis came after weeks of tensions, threats and bullying from the US.

Were the US really not being 'callous' about the loss of life, the first statements from the US would have been statements offering regret/apologies for the three dead, promises of investigations into the incidents, and then stating that they believed that Davis had diplomatic immunity and should be handed over to US authorities for investigation into the incident.

Instead, US statements and the US attitude in the days and weeks after the incident made clear that the US is callous about the loss of Pakistani life at the hands of gun toting (illegally) American officials running around Pakistan, and also exactly how the US views Pakistan - a country that it can threaten, insult and bully into complying with its demands.

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## Solomon2

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Ok now the azzhole is being reffered to as an ambassador ... mindblowing .. !
> The fact is , hes not even a Diplomat and his immunity is now being engineered, how come the US can change its image if it dosent supports the very laws which it dictates the politicians of pakistan to follow .
> He was a spy being tracked and the azzhole killed those men when he was unable to shake off his tail... !
> BTW what could be be the max punishement if hes proven a diplomat and then sent to US for his trial there , i m pretty sure he wont even be tried there. No matter what the guy wont enjoy such support when hel ultimately appear before GOD on the day of ressurection, If you do bad and get away with it,GOD does make sure ,it eaqualls out in the end.


 


H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be&#8212;or to be indistinguishable from self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." Neal Stephenson (Cryptonomicon)


Cute. But even sixteen-year-old Pakistanis choose their path in life. Will they choose the craven and easy path of immoral deception in the cause of slavery, or the brave yet difficult path of fighting for truth and freedom? 

This thread strongly suggests to me the former, rather than the latter. Whether sixteen or sixty, what Pakistanis who refuse to realize the injustice of Davis' current imprisonment have to be proud of I don't know.


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## Hulk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I find that claim by Kerry to be disingenuous, as was Obama's that the US is not being 'callous about the loss of life'. The US is being callous about the loss of Pakistani life, because we haven't heard a peep about investigating and punishing the driver of the vehicle that killed an innocent bystander, and even Kerry's offer to investigate Davis came after weeks of tensions, threats and bullying from the US.
> 
> Were the US really not being 'callous' about the loss of life, the first statements from the US would have been statements offering regret/apologies for the three dead, promises of investigations into the incidents, and then stating that they believed that Davis had diplomatic immunity and should be handed over to US authorities for investigation into the incident.
> 
> Instead, US statements and the US attitude in the days and weeks after the incident made clear that the US is callous about the loss of Pakistani life at the hands of gun toting (illegally) American officials running around Pakistan, and also exactly how the US views Pakistan - a country that it can threaten, insult and bully into complying with its demands.


 
AM the key missing point in this whole argument is right or wrong, we all do wrong things. If you are looking for them to abide by norms, someone you have to do the same. They will also find something similar which will not be comfortable to you. No one is saint.


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## Solomon2

Ak-47A said:


> The document shows that Davis gets $ 0.2 million per annum as salary.


Not a U.S. government document. Not a pay slip, either. It could be Davis' invoice to the government for providing his services under contract. I imagine this would have been presented months ago to the Pakistani Foreign Office as part of the U.S. government's process of establishing his diplomatic credentials. 

Do Pakistanis really understand why a man like Davis has to have full diplomatic immunity to do his job? Because he has to protect ambassadors and their staffs and must have license to use deadly force to do so. The immunity has to be full so that the sending country's enemies can't be tempted to capture and compromise the security man when he is by himself. 

Davis' story appears less interesting the longer I consider it. Stations in Pakistan have long been considered among the U.S. State Department's most dangerous posts. It isn't surprising, then, that security is by a more-skilled-than-usual contractor rather than a State Dept. employee.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> I was referring to extreme positions taken by some Pakistanis who live in the west. It was not necessarily referring only to this particular subject but did include it. It was made in context of some posts made by other members.


And my point is that those 'extreme positions', depending on the issue (currently on the Raymond Davis issue) are shared by many Pakistanis resident in Pakistan. Many of the anti-Western commentators and journalists who allegedly contribute to 'anti-western sentiment', reside in Pakistan, and most polls that illustrate a deep dislike and distrust of the US are also conducted in Pakistan, not amongst overseas Pakistanis. So I fail to see any justification in your argument, especially in the current case of Raymond Davis. 

Now what is true is that often the contributors on online Pakistani fora are overseas Pakistanis, but that is likely the result of that particular demographic being more comfortable communicating in English online, and seeking out such platforms. The only way to substantiate your argument would be to perhaps provide polling data on certain issues that illustrates a disconnect between the views of Pakistanis resident in Pakistan and those resident overseas.



> The argument is as follows. Some have argued here that Pakistan must be willing to burn bridges with the U.S. and that the economic & other costs, if any of such action is somehow worth it. My point was that such comments opens a non resident Pakistani to the charge of being duplicitous since such sacrifices are not shared directly by them. Some(NRP'S) here who take extraordinarily extreme positions should be asked why they don't walk the talk & stand by their convictions. This is true on this subject as well as on those advocating more stringent religious laws.


You could argue that they are being disingenuous, but at the same time many of these positions are shared by many in Pakistan as well, as is indicated by the polling data showing a majority of Pakistanis in favor of 'Shariah Law' (however they define it) and ending the relationship with the US. So one could argue that the overseas Pakistanis advocating in favor of such positions are doing so because they share the same ideology, political and religious views as many resident Pakistanis, and therefore focusing on the resident status of overseas Pakistanis does not advance the discussion in a constructive manner.



> I have made no comment on the merits of this particular case except to suggest very early on this thread that Pakistan must not rush headlong into a unwinnable battle which in the end would only serve to exacerbate internal fissures. Have stayed out of this argument since. I have no issues with the merit of the positions taken by many Pakistanis(you included) on this case except for the practicality of such a position.


Comments on the practicality of any position being advocated are fine, but given that there appears to be no disconnect between the views of a majority of resident Pakistanis and overseas Pakistanis, accusing OSP's of being duplicitous is an irrelevant argument.


> Btw, your last comment on focusing on the argument & not on the person making them would have carried more weight if you hadn't said this.


I am afraid what I said is the truth - it is almost always Indians who raise this canard of 'OSP's being more nationalistic' on various issues, ostensibly to discredit the arguments being made by painting those making them as some sort of distant, out of touch elite, residing overseas where they are immune from the consequences of their proposals and positions. It is a distraction from the actual argument itself, and is only a valid point to make if you have evidence supporting your position that the 'overseas Pakistanis' are advocating a position that many resident Pakistanis would not support.

I have made these same arguments dozens of times since I started actively commenting on Pakistani affairs, almost always in response to Indians, which is why I pointed that out.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> AM the key missing point in this whole argument is right or wrong, we all do wrong things. If you are looking for them to abide by norms, someone you have to do the same. They will also find something similar which will not be comfortable to you. No one is saint.


 
Feel free to point out when Pakistan does wrong on the relevant thread - I believe many of us have done that on various issues, such as the GoP's positions on Blasphemy laws, Ahmadis etc.

This thread however is on the Raymond Davis issue, and Obama declared that the US was 'not being callous about the loss of life'. Pointing out exactly how he (the US) is being callous, and calling him and Kerry out for their disingenuous claims given the facts, is relevant and appropriate.


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## VCheng

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I find that claim by Kerry to be disingenuous, as was Obama's that the US is not being 'callous about the loss of life'. The US is being callous about the loss of Pakistani life, because we haven't heard a peep about investigating and punishing the driver of the vehicle that killed an innocent bystander, and even Kerry's offer to investigate Davis came after weeks of tensions, threats and bullying from the US.
> 
> Were the US really not being 'callous' about the loss of life, the first statements from the US would have been statements offering regret/apologies for the three dead, promises of investigations into the incidents, and then stating that they believed that Davis had diplomatic immunity and should be handed over to US authorities for investigation into the incident.
> 
> Instead, US statements and the US attitude in the days and weeks after the incident made clear that the US is callous about the loss of Pakistani life at the hands of gun toting (illegally) American officials running around Pakistan, and also exactly how the US views Pakistan - a country that it can threaten, insult and bully into complying with its demands.



You make some good points Sir.

I agree with you that the matter should, and could, have been dealt with with much greater sensitivity and compassion from both governments, specially with regards to the families, and in particular, the poor young lady who chose to commit suicide. That alone speaks volumes as to how badly the situation was handled. Your criticism in this matter is absilutely justified.

The outrage being shown is quite justified too, but that comes from the bruised dignity of a proud people. I know, I was once one of them, and I can perfectly identify with them still.

However, the sad but painful truth is that the dignity of the nation has been long sold down the river over decades. So when you write " a *country *that it can threaten, insult and bully ", what you really should say is " a *governance apparatus *that it can threaten, insult and bully ". I am truly sad to say that the reason for this perceived behavior of the US government is the Pakistani elite, who are beholden lock, stock, and barrel (including illegal foreign accounts, offshore properties, green cards for children and siblings etc. etc.) to their masters.

What you are complaining of is merely the master coming to collect his dues. Nothing more.

That is why I have said all along, the time to sort is all out is *after *this matter has been resolved according to the *present *rules of the game. We all need to go home, regroup, and then work hard over decades so that when the next match comes, as it inevitably will, the rules can be different. 

We do have that potential, but it is up to us to realise it.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Solomon2 said:


> Cute. But even sixteen-year-old Pakistanis choose their path in life. Will they choose the craven and easy path of immoral deception in the cause of slavery, or the brave yet difficult path of fighting for truth and freedom?
> 
> This thread strongly suggests to me the former, rather than the latter. Whether sixteen or sixty, what Pakistanis who refuse to realize the injustice of Davis' current imprisonment have to be proud of I don't know.


 
What immoral Deception, The guy killed two people and ramed the other one to death and one of the victims wife commited sucide just beacuse of one man, Forget Viena conventions I fail to understand upon which moral grounds is Mr Davis imprisionment is being declared unjust. Is this what they teach you guys back in US, that you hypocrytically stick to laws when they provide even a slightest corridor to dodge, Are there no moral ethics , no human values , This thread should strongly suggest that Americans are enslaved to follow the hypocrytic trends under the man made laws to even deny the slightest of moral values , or should they be bold enough to accept whats wrong and have the courage to say the wrong Wrong and resort to slightest of moral ethics,but i fear theyl stick to the former. 
America Despite being an un matched super power cannot afford to let go a murderous act by a person who bears no sanity speaks volumes of immoral Deception and distortion of truth under the blanket of blind hypocrycy ... This cant be a Super power. 
Davis will be realeased but what good does it brings to America instead of public hatered, You dont win hearts and minds by sending in retard mercanaries who just kill innocent people in broad daylight and yet get away with it,GOA has shown its true colours under the blind support of Mr Davis while ignoring the legitimate concerns of masses of Pakistan, that what measures its willing to take to even save a criminal act of an american while chanting about the talibans beating up women while zipping there mouths when it comes to afghan druglords encapsulated in a puupet gov in afghanistan. Certinly people can now easily point out the parallels btw the alikes of taliban and alikes of those who treated people at gitmo and abu gharib worst than dead pigs....!!!


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## Solomon2

Leviza said:


> just wanted to say one thing here...
> 
> truth is not always what USA believe in....


Sure. When shown wrong we change our minds. What do you do, sir?



> ...also immunity to Davis need to be confirmed by FO and Court now -


By treaty the court system is not involved when a diplomat has immunity. Since Davis IS in jail, don't you consider it more likely that Pakistani officials are trying to obscure his immunity rather than (1) admit to their lack of competence and (2) expose themselves to attacks, verbal or otherwise, by extremists?



> .... say thing what ever you want to but the FACT IS HE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE IN LAHORE


The police at the scene of the killing did not believe that. I'm not sure that even the higher-ranking police officials who call for a murder investigation (to hide their own cravenness or incompetence) make such a sweeping claim.

That was three things! What you really _meant_ to say was, "I want to make my claims without being contradicted" is that not so?


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Letter to Mr.Hussain Haqqani (Pak Ambassador in Washington)
Sir if I'm not wrong, you have the same or even more immunity in US as claimed by the American dude Davis who shot 2 people in Pakistan.
Forget Killing someone, just go and Slap the person next door.
and see how vienna convention works in Washington.


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## Solomon2

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> What immoral Deception, The guy killed two people and ramed the other one -


Whoa! Nitro, has your anger made you blind? Davis killed two people. The third was killed by somebody else. 



> Forget Viena conventions I fail to understand upon which moral grounds is Mr Davis imprisionment is being declared unjust.


It is Davis' imprisonment* in Pakistan* that is unjust because under the Vienna convention the U.S. has jurisdiction. If it really believes Davis committed a crime the GoP can kick him out of the country and insist he be prosecuted in the U.S. Pakistani police can present evidence there.

We really do have a good court system in this country. I understand, however, that the Pakistani press is really bad and has played a major role in shaping your perceptions. How are Pakistanis supposed to learn better if you don't keep an open mind and make an effort to discover and promote true facts yourself?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

As far as I can tell, Obama did not even offer 'regrets', let alone an apology, at the loss of life:

_"&#8220;Obviously, we&#8217;re concerned about the loss of life. We&#8217;re not callous about that, but there is a broader principle at stake,&#8221; Obama said."​_
And the one basic rule of communications, when it comes to sincere apologies, don't add a 'but'. So we have an expression of 'concern', and then a 'but', which amounts pretty much to 'callousness'.


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## Solomon2

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Letter to Mr.Hussain Haqqani (Pak Ambassador in Washington)
> Sir if I'm not wrong, you have the same or even more immunity in US as claimed by the American dude Davis who shot 2 people in Pakistan.
> Forget Killing someone, just go and Slap the person next door.
> and see how vienna convention works in Washington.


And what will that slap do for you, Nitro?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> I understand, however, that the Pakistani press is really bad and has played a major role in shaping your perceptions. How are Pakistanis supposed to learn better if you don't keep an open mind and make an effort to discover and promote true facts yourself?


The Pakistani press has in fact done an excellent job, by giving the public access to relevant documents, statements and interviews with concerned officials, from all sides.

Pakistanis, not just here, but on the comments sections of the major English Pakistani newspapers, have pulled out and studied the text of the conventions governing diplomatic immunity for consulate workers, and pointed out how the GoP is in fact doing nothing illegal. The same arguments have been made by several journalists and commentators in the Pakistani media.


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## SekrutYakhni

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *why don't you tell it to the families of the innocent children and the families of the rape and sodomy victims----.*
> 
> SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside.
> 
> The people and the world judges us and our character from what we do to our own and dear ones---that is what the world knows us by---and when an international issue comes up----all this dirt and that we have burried in our backyard---comes to the surface.
> 
> Nations look at us us and look at the legal precedence that we have setup in the past---the analysts will dig out all the dirt that they have about our legal system and throw it at our faces and let the world see it for itslef.
> 
> Social issues and geo-political issues sometimes are extremely close to each other than what one may want to admit.



Same could be said to you. You can also man up and tell your thoughts to the parents of the victims of Raymond's shooting.

"SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside."

Yes and the character of Americans can be well discussed, if you know what I mean.

I agree with you that 'a' bacteria is part of a larger family i.e. social behaviour of a nation reflects the character--. 

Can I point some guns at you and ask you some questions of charismatic society i.e. America? The point is, as it was, there is a line between up roaring because of a social problem and a problem which is national and international. 

The case of Ann Coulter, is an internal issue of the U.S, her social acceptance but a Pakistani American--maybe a diplomat, killing an accused on American streets is another issue. Moreover, the reaction was intense from the public because Pakistanis DO NOT like Amrikans.


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## Mutee

Excellent post sir mastan both of the points you make are very true and genuine Pakistan can't afford to piss off the Americans because we are totally dependent on them for our survival so we have to release RD your other point that the we are Morally A bank-crypt nation is also very valid but I would say few good ppl remain in this society we just need to follow the right path and leave this slavery only them we will become a true nation but for that we need self reliance Nd good economy as long as these factors are not present we would always remain a slave


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## r3alist

> Is it worth the fight if the two guys were criminals?



according to that logic you murder a criminal then its ok?

ofcourse it worth it, fighting for justice is priceless - and this is what the pakistani population want.


and who cares if america gives us aid?

anyone tell me what benefit this has given the common pakistani - ZERO, because it does not go to them.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Solomon2 said:


> Whoa! Nitro, has your anger made you blind? Davis killed two people. The third was killed by somebody else.
> 
> It is Davis' imprisonment* in Pakistan* that is unjust because under the Vienna convention the U.S. has jurisdiction. If it really believes Davis committed a crime the GoP can kick him out of the country and insist he be prosecuted in the U.S. Pakistani police can present evidence there.
> 
> We really do have a good court system in this country. I understand, however, that the Pakistani press is really bad and has played a major role in shaping your perceptions. How are Pakistanis supposed to learn better if you don't keep an open mind and make an effort to discover and promote true facts yourself?


 
Solmon2 .. The fact is , if Raymond Davis had compleet blanket immunity our FM Qureshi wouldnt have felt the need to not give in to US demands and dont respect the International Law , as Hes a God Dam FM not an ordinary Pakistani, I expect he knew the legalities being followed in the light of Viena conventions and therefore didnt give in to the Demands of US despite being pressurized.Further if RD really enjoyed that status quo , it wouldnt have taken State Dpt or the US embassy to provide his Documented status quo even after two weeks after this tragic incident...!!!


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## SekrutYakhni

You could talk about morality here i.e. Americans provided critical support to Pakistanis when they needed it but they are ditching us now, so on and so forth. The fact of the matter is, if the U.S. did not support dictators and corrupt politicians, America would be an ally for whom Pakistanis could give their lives. Was it a conspiracy when Benazir met some American officials? What was that? I could pin point the same for every politician and army general. 
You know why Pakistanis hate Americans? They supported our corrupt leaders.

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## pakdefender

*Lahore court extends Davis remand for 14 days*


LAHORE: A court on Thursday put off ruling whether a US official accused of double murder has diplomatic immunity, threatening to prolong a crisis with Washington for another month.

The court adjourned until March 14, extending tensions between the United States and Pakistan 

Raymond Davis, whom Washington insists has diplomatic immunity, says he acted in self-defence when he shot dead two men in a busy street in Lahore on January 27.

A third Pakistani died when struck by a US diplomatic vehicle that came to Daviss assistance.

As the deputy attorney general has requested three weeks to submit a reply on the status of Raymond Davis, the case is adjourned until March 14, Lahore high court chief justice Ijaz Mohammad Chaudhry said.

Reacting to the hearing, US ambassador Cameron Munter said the US was disappointed that the government of Pakistan did not certify that Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity.

The government in Islamabad is under enormous domestic pressure not to be seen as kowtowing to US demands for Davis release and has come under fire over how American officials are seemingly free to drive around with loaded weapons.

Senator Kerrys visit to Pakistan manifested our intention to work with the government of Pakistan to resolve this issue, said Munter.

As the senator said during his visit, we want to work together as two countries that have a common interest in the same goal and find a path forward.

This is not a simple case. It has legal, social, political and international implications, and the government therefore wants to find a solution with consensus, Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan said.

But political analyst Hasan Askari told AFP: The longer the delay, the more difficult it will become for the government. You create room for a lot of speculation.

Another court on Thursday remanded Davis in custody until March 3 in a separate case of illegal arms possession, the American making an appearance by video link from jail, said Punjab government prosecutor Abdul Samad.

Demonstrators in Multan, the home town of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, burnt the US flag and an effigy of US Senator John Kerry, who visited Pakistan this week, to protest against pressure for Davis release, witnesses said.

Many Pakistanis remain suspicious about why Davis, who reportedly worked for a security contractor, was carrying loaded weapons and a GPS satellite tracking device.

US authorities say he is a diplomat assigned to the US embassy.

A statement on January 28 that identified him as a staff member of the US consulate general in Lahore was a mistake owing to the effort to get information out, US embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale told AFP on Thursday.

When we checked the diplomatic note we realised that he was assigned to the embassy. We mistakenly said he was with the consulate, Beale said.

When it came to not releasing his identity, she said Davis gave them permission to use his name only after a week.

Lahore court extends Davis


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## Solomon2

pakdefender said:


> &#8220;This is not a simple case. It has legal, social, political and international implications, and the government therefore wants to find a solution with consensus,&#8221; Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan said.


Actually, it _is_ a simple case. If Davis didn't have immunity there would be no "international implications"; he would just be another American behind bars in a foreign country. What is really happening is that Pakistan is trashing the Vienna Convention (either 1961 or 1963, take your pick!) I suspect GoP officials don't want to deal with the social and political implications which would call them to task before their own populace and asked for the delay until they can come up with an idea of how to deal with it - or in the foolish hope public anger will cool. 



> But political analyst Hasan Askari told AFP: &#8220;The longer the delay, the more difficult it will become for the government.



I'm not eager to let them off the hook.


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## r3alist

> Actually, it is a simple case. If Davis didn't have immunity there would be no "international implications"



if he had immunity the relevant documents would have been produced, and this would have been over in a matter of hours, because why would the US mess about if he is legit?

the truth is he is a nefarious character, a trained murdered who belongs in a jason bourne film and not pakistan in any legal way.

and the us have had their agitator and spy caught red handed, he is significant because he will let the cat out of the bag.


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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> according to that logic you murder a criminal then its ok?
> 
> ofcourse it worth it, fighting for justice is priceless - and this is what the pakistani population want.
> 
> 
> and who cares if america gives us aid?
> 
> anyone tell me what benefit this has given the common pakistani - ZERO, because it does not go to them.



You are right to the extent that the average Pakistani does not derive as much DIRECT benefit as could be derived, but that is NOT the fault of USA. Please look to the Pakistani kleptocracy.

If you consider INDIRECT benefits, economic and military assistance are first and foremost, followed by many other less major, but nonetheless important things. A further discussion would be off topic for this thread.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Court will decide Davis immunity: govt.

Updated at 0130 PST Friday, February 18, 2011

ISLAMABAD: President and Prime Minister chaired a core committee meeting of their respective party PPP here late on Thursday, Geo News reported.

President Asif Ali Zardari said US Senator had been informed about the immunity issue of Raymond Davis that the matter was being heard by a court so the court will pronounce the final judgment.
-----------------------------------------------------
US disappointed over immunity refusal: Munter

Updated at 2100 PST Thursday, February 17, 2011

ISLAMBAD: US Ambassador in Pakistan Cameron Munter Thursday said Pakistan refusal to give immunity to Raymond Davis has caused disappointment to the US, Geo News reported.

The US has already made its position clear on the matter while Cameron Munter in reaction to the Raymond Davis case, said the recent visit of John Kerry to Pakistan was reflective of the US intention to work together with Pakistan. John Kerry himself during his visit also expressed the wish of the US to work in collaboration with Pakistan, he added. 

Pakistan and US share common interests and goals and that the US is grieved over the loss of life in Lahore and share the sorrow of the victims families.
----------------------------------------------

Per Jang Update, Fauzia Wahab, the PPP's Info secretary has been fired and replaced keeping in view popular resentment that ensued after her "personal opinion".

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> You are right to the extent that the average Pakistani does not derive as much DIRECT benefit as could be derived, but that is NOT the fault of USA. Please look to the Pakistani kleptocracy.
> 
> If you consider INDIRECT benefits, economic and military assistance are first and foremost, followed by many other less major, but nonetheless important things. A further discussion would be off topic for this thread.


 
firstly they derive next to next to NO benefit.

secondly the USA are fully aware of the system of corruption within pakistani politics, so they are very much complicit in the corruption, if not the instigators themselves.

thirdly, i am not aware of any indirect benefits, i know one thing about the USA and that is they look after themselves first and only. so if pakistan has received any favor its because it benefits the US first, anything else is a fortunate consequence.


please remove the pakistani flag from your name, any self respecting pakistani cannot be an apologist for abject capitulation and slavery.


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## Pak_Sher

Actually if the US Aid stops that will be a blessing in disguise to revamp our Tax revenue collection system. The money is there but not collected, there are medium and high income individuals and business people that never pay 1 paisa in taxes.

Pakistan can have good relations with the US, but should be independent finacillay.


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## r3alist

Pak_Sher said:


> Actually if the US Aid stops that will be a blessing in disguise to revamp our Tax revenue collection system. The money is there but not collected, there are medium and high income individuals and business peo
> ple that never pay 1 paisa in taxes.
> 
> Pakistan can have good relations with the US, but should be independent finacillay.


 


dont get me wrong, good relations are preferable, but not at the expense of the nation.


the us are only interested when pakistan are being useful servants, else we are nothing.

therefore the only option is to wean ourselves away from reliance, and chart an independent path, and PREFERABLY not upsetting the americans too much.

however, such are the demands that its unavoidable, in that case we should remember china is next door to us.


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## pakdefender

In the following video one can clearly see the american mercenary refusing to co-operate with the investigators and then in almost a fit of rage he tries to get up and go out of the room, see here






Also see the following

Pak1stanFirst-Davis flies into fury on prayer call | Latest News

The above report cites that Raymond Davis got enraged when he saw inmates praying in the jail and he became savagely aggressive upon hearing the call to prayers.


Here are some quotes



> &#8220;He started shouting in a quite savage manner in the wee hours when the Azaan was in progress and the prisoners were waking up for the prayers,&#8221; said a prisoner requesting not to be named.





> The inmate said that Davis started shouting, &#8220;Shut the loud speaker or I will raise the matter with the (US) Consulate.&#8221;





> &#8220;Seeing four prisoners offering Asr prayers in the corridor of their barrack, Davis started grumbling in a derogatory way,&#8221; said Shah.





> Davis shouted in reply: &#8220;You uncivilised fools don&#8217;t even make good servants. Is this the method to serve?&#8221;





> On being informed, Jail Superintendent Awan arrived within no time and tried his best to placate Davis, who abused him also, saying: &#8220;I am saying you should go now, bastard.&#8221;



Raymond Davis seems to have rage issues, he seems to harbour a lot of hate and he seems to have total contempt for the host country. 

Add to this the two direct murders that he committed and the third death for which he is directly responsible, he radioed the American vehicle which killed the bystander.

Had he co-operated with the traffic warden instead of trying to break the law the third life could have been saved

Also to add that this man was in possession of photographs of Army bunkers and his call records show that he had made calls to Waziristan this man making contacts with militants must be investigated.

He was also in possession of illegal arms.

It outrageous for the Americans to suggest that this man be granted diplomatic immunity when clearly this man is not only a murderer he is also an enemy of the state 

Enemy action is for sure not covered under diplomatic immunity.

Raymond Davis will never be freed, he will be convicted on multiple charges and most likely he will be facing the death penalty, which he deserves.

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## pakdefender

a comment made by an indian on youtube:



> he already had foreign minister removed from his post... a US killer is more powerful than a minister in pakistan



something to think about


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## r3alist

lets not get caught up in periphery details of what his personality is like.

i think the core issue is what the heck was this guy up to, and is he a terrorist helper/funder?


and if he was, will the pakistani govt kick all of these guys out.


there is a fundamental security issue here, stay on the ball people!


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## Usama86

Watch Off the Record with Kashif Abbasi, he interviews Qurashi ex-FM, the following things Qurashi confirmed

1. He will appear in court and express his views if summoned 
2. RD doesnot have the sort of immunity which can let him walk free
3. Senator Kerry promised him to get his job back if he changes his stance on this issue. (tells us how much US influences our politics)
4. FO was very capable of giving its view to the court today, the delay is a delibrate attempt.

I think RD is not going any where soon because the court has asked to put his name on ECL and told the govt. not to hand him over to any other country without seeking the court's permission. The govt will now have to prove to the court that RD is actually a diplomat and the court will decide on the evidence provided to them that wheather or not diplomatic immunity applies to RD.
It is sad for Davis that he is caught up in his act at the wrong time, the judiciary has sort of won a war of independance and now will do all in their power to make sure the right verdict is given. RD is best advised to get comfy in his new home as soon as possible cause he is staying here for some time now.

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## VelocuR

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> *Court will decide Davis&#8217; immunity: govt.*
> Updated at 0130 PST Friday, February 18, 2011
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> *US disappointed over immunity refusal: Munter*


 
It send a very strong message to US. A very bold step. No-one dare to tone down our voices or rhetoric. In a move forward, US and Pakistan will start very normal relations.


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## r3alist

Usama86 said:


> Watch Off the Record with Kashif Abbasi, he interviews Qurashi ex-FM, the following things Qurashi confirmed
> 
> 1. He will appear in court and express his views if summoned
> 2. RD doesnot have the sort of immunity which can let him walk free
> 3. Senator Kerry promised him to get his job back if he changes his stance on this issue. (tells us how much US influences our politics)
> 4. FO was very capable of giving its view to the court today, the delay is a delibrate attempt.
> 
> I think RD is not going any where soon because the court has asked to put his name on ECL and told the govt. not to hand him over to any other country without seeking the court's permission. The govt will now have to prove to the court that RD is actually a diplomat and the court will decide on the evidence provided to them that wheather or not diplomatic immunity applies to RD.


 


is it not more important to ensure pakistan's govt is no longer letting these cold blooded killers in, and to cease the operations of those already in the nation?

whats the point of convicting one when there are hundreds more out there.



another thought, draw a line showing the number of blackwater types with time in pakistan on a chart.

then draw a line of the number of bombings/explosions in pakistan with time, they will match very well.

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## JayAtl

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Solmon2 .. The fact is , if Raymond Davis had compleet blanket immunity our FM Qureshi wouldnt have felt the need to not give in to US demands and dont respect the International Law , as *Hes a God Dam FM not an ordinary Pakistani,* I expect he knew the legalities being followed in the light of Viena conventions and therefore didnt give in to the Demands of US despite being pressurized.Further if RD really enjoyed that status quo , it wouldnt have taken State Dpt or the US embassy to provide his Documented status quo even after two weeks after this tragic incident...!!!



he maybe no ordinary man - but your EX FM was known to obfuscate the truth many times. Btw, what does that make your current FM? who agrees that the guy has full diplomatic immunity? 

Or are you saying ONLY if they agree with you they become and I quote you " a God Dam FM not an ordinary Pakistani"


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## American Eagle

Mr. Davis was the victum of a failed robbery, of a crime. He did not go out to randomly get after anyone. Let's not post false statements to try to stir up hatred falsely.


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## r3alist

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis was the victum of a failed robbery, of a crime. He did not go out to randomly get after anyone. Let's not post false statements to try to stir up hatred falsely.


 
you are a broken record, please stop, the cat is out of the bag, *WE KNOW.*



please dont bother responding, his persistence is a clear sign of desperation.

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## American Eagle

It helps to understand that getting illegal access to confidential material pertinent to this case is not what we in the US call "good press coverage."

Some of the boasted about "evidence" is fraudulent on it's face as well, including the so called "pay slip." That is as phoney as a three dollar bill.

It is a dramatic violation of the rights of the victum, Mr. Davis, as any such information should have been exchanged between the GOP, FO, and the US Department of State, while Mr. Davis would and should and will have to behanded over to our State Dept. as he has 100% Diplomatic Immunity.


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## Usama86

r3alist said:


> is it not more important to ensure pakistan's govt is no longer letting these cold blooded killers in, and to cease the operations of those already in the nation?
> 
> *whats the point of convicting one when there are hundreds more out there.
> 
> 
> 
> another thought, draw a line showing the number of blackwater types with time in pakistan on a chart.
> 
> then draw a line of the number of bombings/explosions in pakistan with time, they will match very well*.


 
Earlier we did not have much proof of the existance of such people in Pakistan, now that we have got one in our jail who we believe to be under cover agents de-stabalizing Pakistan its up to us to extract all that we can from him and through the legal process present proof to the world... let it be a landmark case and from there give the guidelines for how such people should be kicked out or not allowed in at all. I dont expect this to happen !!!

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## JayAtl

RaptorRX707 said:


> It send a very strong message to US. *A very bold step. No-one dare to tone down our voices or rhetoric*. In a move forward, US and Pakistan will start very normal relations.


 
*Quite the contrary, the fact the courts did not entertain the case - shows the American influence.* They are waiting on the immunity question to be resolved. else if they tried him - it would be mean inherently he had no immunity. A bold step as you put it - would have been davis tried in your courts today.


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## r3alist

Usama86 said:


> Earlier we did not have much proof of the existance of such people in Pakistan, now that we have got one in our jail who we believe to be under cover agents de-stabalizing Pakistan its up to us to extract all that we can from him and through the legal process present proof to the world... let it be a landmark case and from there give the guidelines for how such people should be kicked out or not allowed in at all. I dont expect this to happen !!!




i agree, this will not happen, the US has too much leverage, and pakistani's dont have enough balls.


BUT.....BUT...BUT......we can at least properly inform the population of how to make democracy work for them.

and in this case the population must be aware of the security threat these blackwater types have, and then demand that they be booted out in the name of national security.


and if the GOP refuse.....they have some explaining to do.

*
lets not get caught up in the smaller picture of his diplomatic status, this belongs in the wider context of the GOP allowing nefarious and terroristic agents into our nation to do as they please!*


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## JayAtl

self delete.........................


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## American Eagle

There is a difference in smearing, slamming, and using untrue made up remarks and standing up for principal.

The man Raymond Davis is a victum of a failed attempted armed robbery. Much of the evidence has miraculously "changed" from the first week when the Pakistani press headlined TWO ROBBER S FAIL IN ATTACK ON AMERICAN DIPLOMAT to DAVIS MURDERED TWO INNOCENT PAKISTANIS.

Here is an example of false statements used to smear and stir up the unaware Paksitani people: "The poor two men [who just completed robbing two Pakistani Gentlemen of their cell phones and cash] two weeks after the event of the failed robbery...the world is then told untruthfully that the two pistols pull on Mr. Davis ...were unloaded pistols."

Do you really expect anyone in the free world to believe that? Of course not. But this statement is atypical of the type of false slanderous hate all Americans statement this site has been abused to have written here on the otherwise very good PDF miliary site.

Another absurd example I have read here in the last two days from today, Feb. 17: The robbers guns had no finger prints on the gun trigger(s)!

Now let's talk rationally here and ask ourselves does anybody have a gun they carry around that has no finger prints all over it, including on the trigger(s)?

Again, a preposterous statement insulting to thinking people who with simply common sense, street sense if you will, know that to be untrue.

The core truth is as from day one when the Court ordered the FO of the GOP to present evidence as to whether or not Mr. Davis is covered by Diplomatic Immunity.

It is a sad public fact that the GOP pretends that the courts will decide Mr. Davis immunity or not, when the courts know better and have Ordered the GOP FO to present their rationale to it, the court, as to whether or not the FO agrees or disagrees that Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity.

Meanwhile Mr. Davis is covered by total Diplomatic Immunity and that is known world wide while this unfortunate episode, a failed robbery, continues to keep the two shot in the act of attempted robbery and armed assault on Mr. Davis...keeps this sore subject daily thrown in the face of the grieving family members, which makes every day a hard day for those innocents of the families of Faheem Shamshad and Faizan Haider. Their families deserve to be left in peace by writers here and by the rabid journalists and media in Pakistan.

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## Usama86

American Eagle said:


> It helps to understand that getting illegal access to confidential material pertinent to this case is not what we in the US call "good press coverage."
> 
> Some of the boasted about "evidence" is fraudulent on it's face as well, including the so called "pay slip." That is as phoney as a three dollar bill.
> 
> It is a dramatic violation of the rights of the victum, Mr. Davis, as any such information should have been exchanged between the GOP, FO, and the US Department of State, while *Mr. Davis would and should and will have to behanded over to our State Dept. as he has 100% Diplomatic Immunity*.


 
Your President also made a statment to the same effect in reply to which our govt. has said that the *Pakistani courts will decide the issue of immunity for RD*. Is this right or wrong, legal or illegal is something we can debate about day and night but it will not change the facts of the case. Your position is well know to us and so is ours to you.


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## r3alist

please stop talking to the troll, he is a broken record and has repeated the same unsubstantiated points time and again.


its a time waste to try and talk to someone who wont change his mind.


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## American Eagle

Absolutely untrue. Before and after the Davis failed robbery people were blown up by terrorist suicide bombers, native Paksitanis, children in some cases, and those acts of killing their fellow Pakistanis are what I talked about in the beginning of this now very long Thread when I asked for comparisons then and there of if you are condoling the lost of the two robbers, whose families were and continue to be condoled despite false statements to the contrary, then were is the permanent, long term out cry against the Taliban and al Qaida who caused this whole long term war on terrorism ...where is the sympathy by names of all those blown away in numerous suicide bombings in just Lahore alone?

Where is the list of names of all the innocent Pakistanis their fellow countrymen turned terrorist killed off wrongly and unfairly?

This is simply a whipping boy attempt to blame all societies ills there on one American who was stuck up by two robbers who hade a bad choice of their second victum that day, as they had just successfully held up and robbed the two Pakistani gentlemen in the same neighborhood there in Lahore.

Where is the sustained, long term out cry agains the year to year 15% increase in crime in Lahore?

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## r3alist

kick out the blackwater types and crime/explosions will decrease.

but enough of you already, give it a rest, take a nap or something.


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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> please stop talking to the troll, he is a broken record and has repeated the same unsubstantiated points time and again.
> 
> 
> its a time waste to try and talk to someone who wont change his mind.



Exactly why I am not responding to your rants!

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## JayAtl

VCheng said:


> You are right to the extent that the average Pakistani does not derive as much DIRECT benefit as could be derived, but that is NOT the fault of USA. Please look to the Pakistani kleptocracy.
> 
> If you consider INDIRECT benefits, economic and military assistance are first and foremost, followed by many other less major, but nonetheless important things. A further discussion would be off topic for this thread.


 
Agreed and lets not forget the aid when floods happened . US 300 million, china 10 million.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Exactly why I am not responding to your rants!


 
no, it seems all you are good for on this thread is telling people "to calm down"

now i responded to your points about US "help" and you have remained quiet, i take it no response is forthcoming because there you have no retort


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> There is a difference in smearing, slamming, and using untrue made up remarks and standing up for principal.
> 
> The man Raymond Davis is a victum of a failed attempted armed robbery. Much of the evidence has miraculously "changed" from the first week when the Pakistani press headlined TWO ROBBER FAIL IN ATTACK ON AMERICAN DIPLOMAT to DAVIS MURDERED TWO INNOCENT PAKISTANIS.
> 
> Here is an example of false statements used to smear and stir up the unaware Paksitani people: "The poor two boys [who just completed robbing two Pakistani Gentlemen of this cell phones and cash] two weeks after the event of the failed robbery on Mr. Davis had unloaded pistols."
> 
> Do you really expect anyone in the free world to believe that? Of course not. But is atypical of the type of false slanderous hate all Americans statement this site has been abused to have written here on the otherwise very good PDF miliary site.
> 
> Another absurd example I have read here in the last two days from today, Feb. 17: The robbers guns had no finger prints on the gun trigger(s)!
> Now let's talk rationally here and ask ourselves does anybody have a gun they carry around that has no finger prints all over it, including on the trigger(s)?
> Again, a preposterous statement insulting to thinking people who with simply common sense, street sense if you will, know that to be untrue.



Davis's victims are innocent until proven guilty. Davis has murdered two people, the burden of proof is upon him to prove that he acted in self-defence. Let's cut the bull shall we, Davis was a spy, these guys were probably not innocent but some sort of informants or terrorists. Davis which carried multiple weapons, assassinated the two men.

The case is of murder, then its about who Davis is, and then finally whether or not it acted on the behest of the American state. The case is about terrorism and American state's hand in terrorist activities in Pakistan. If Davis is to walk, then the entire American mission in Pakistan has to leave since it has proven itself to be against Pakistani interests, where it would insist on carrying weapons, running Pakistanis over and not complying with local laws.

Why is a diplomat taking pictures of Pakistani defence installations? He is spying.

It's not just Raymond Davis on trial, the American state is on trial, because once his guilt is proven, not of murdering two people, but murdering them on the behest of the American state, then we'll know for certain about who is doing what all in Pakistan. Pakistanis are in no mood to put up with the flawed American plan that out country can be used as a magnet for terrorists. The American thinking has been to keep the terrorism bottled up in Pakistan so that it doesn't spill into the US. Whatever America is doing in Pakistan, it must stop.

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## VCheng

JayAtl said:


> Agreed and lets not forget the aid when floods happened . US 300 million, china 10 million.



Please also include shoring up the forex reserves and access to US markets for textiles to keep the economy working, and better if only there were more reliable energy supplies available for local factories.


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Please also include shoring up the forex reserves and access to US markets for textiles to keep the economy working, and better if only there were better energy supplies available.


 
err what you kidding me, this is more like the bare minimum payment for services rendered (i.e. support for a crazy "war")


you value the lives of pakistani's with something as meager as the above?

says a lot, please remove your flag.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Davis's victims are innocent until proven guilty. Davis has murdered two people, *the burden of proof is upon him to prove that he acted in self-defence*.



Asim: That is absolutely WRONG. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The accused is PRESUMED INNOCENT until and unless proven guilty after DUE PROCESS.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Asim: That is absolutely WRONG. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The accused is PRESUMED INNOCENT until and unless proven guilty after DUE PROCESS.


 

you are confused.

he is already guilty of murder, of that there is no doubt.

as part of his defence he must somehow prove that he acted in self defence, that is not an automatic assumption.

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## American Eagle

The below exact copied and pasted news story was in the Feb. 17, 2011 issue of the WALL STREET JOURNAL. You can directly look up the article and read it at: WSJ.com

This is what President Obama said, and he didn't ever say we let the Pakistani courts decide if he has Diplomatic Immunity or not.

.LAHORE, PakistanU.S. President Barack Obama called for Pakistan to release a government employee who killed two men last month, as Sen. John Kerry arrived here for talks aimed at ending the diplomatic standoff.

The man, Raymond Davis, has been in custody in Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city, since the incident on Jan. 27. The U.S. says he is covered by diplomatic immunity and should be released. 

Mr. Obama weighed in on the row Tuesday, saying Pakistan must release Mr. Davis under its commitments as a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a pact from the 1960s that guarantees diplomats immunity from prosecution. "If it starts being fair game on our ambassadors around the world, including in dangerous placesit means they can't do their job," Mr. Obama told a news conference. Senator John Kerry is pressing the case for the U.S. as he meets with Pakistani officials in an effort to secure immunity for American diplomat Raymond Davis. Video courtesy of Reuters.

.The comments escalated a diplomatic dispute over Mr. Davis's detention. Public anger over the shooting and demands for Mr. Davis's prosecution make it difficult for Pakistan's central governmentan ally of the U.S.to order his release.

A court in Lahore is expected to begin hearing a case Thursday on whether Mr. Davis has immunity from prosecution. 

Mr. Kerry, at a news conference in Lahore, promised the U.S. Justice Department would conduct its own "thorough criminal investigation" if Pakistan were to release Mr. Davis.

"It is a strong belief of our government that this case does not belong in the court," Mr. Kerry said Tuesday. "And it does not belong in the court because this man has diplomatic immunity."
Mr. Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has made four trips to Pakistan in the past two years and was instrumental in co-writing in 2009 a five-year, $7.5 billion civilian aid package, part of a strategy to help counter Islamic radicalism in the country. Despite closer ties, many here remain wary of the U.S., which is viewed as building strategic alliances with Pakistan's traditional rivals, notably India. 

Washington, too, has been disappointed with Pakistan for failing to clamp down on Taliban havens on its soil. 

The incident involving Mr. Davis has added a further level of mistrust to the relationship. 

The U.S. last week canceled a meeting scheduled for late February in Washington, involving Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the foreign ministers of Pakistan and Afghanistan, in protest against Mr. Davis's detention. Washington has also scaled back other routine bilateral contacts.

According to the U.S. version of events, Mr. Davis, 36 years old, opened fire on two armed men in self-defense after they attempted to stop his white Honda Civic car at a busy intersection in broad daylight. U.S. officials say the two men, who were on a motorbike, had earlier in the day robbed other people in the area.

The U.S. has said Mr. Davis is a "technical and administrative" staff of the U.S. Consulate in Lahore, but hasn't said what his role was or whether he was authorized to carry a weapon. The U.S. confirmed Mr. Davis's identity Friday, two weeks after Pakistani authorities released his name.

Lahore police officers say they recovered a number of effects from Mr. Davis's car after the incident, including two Glock pistols and more than 70 rounds of ammunition. Officials say they also found a metal detector, a latex face mask with a beard and headpiece, and a make-up kit.

A spokeswoman for the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad declined to comment on Mr. Davis's effects.

Pakistani officials appear to be angered by what they say was Mr. Davis's covert role in Pakistan. A senior official with Inter-Services Intelligence, the military's spy agency, said the organization was unaware of Mr. Davis. "Apparently he was working behind our backs," the official said. 

The U.S. Embassy denied this and said it notified Pakistan's Foreign Ministry of Mr. Davis's arrival in the country in January 2010, which, the U.S. says, means he is covered by diplomatic immunity. 

Senior Pakistani officials have made contradictory statements in recent weeks over whether, in their view, Mr. Davis is covered by immunity from prosecution. 

Pakistani police investigating the incident have yet to formally charge Mr. Davis, but say they are treating the case as murder. If the high court finds Mr. Davis isn't covered by immunity, state prosecutors must bring his case to court by Feb. 25.

In Lahore's British-era town center, placards put up by an Islamist group show a photo of Mr. Davis's head with a hangman's noose superimposed around it.

Two Lahore police officers involved in the case say the two men who confronted Mr. Davis were likely armed due to a dispute with another family. One of the men's elder brothers had been killed in December in a row over a girl. They denied the men, who resided in Lahore, had earlier robbed others in the area. 

Witnesses say the men were circling around Mr. Davis's car, which he was driving himself, according to the police officers. 

What happened next is unclear. Mr. Davis fired nine bullets from inside the car, seven of which hit the men in various parts of their bodies. He got out of the car to photograph the dead men on his cellphone and then fled an angry crowd that was forming, the officers said. Police arrested him in his car a few miles from the scene. 

Another vehicle from the consulate, which came to rescue Mr. Davis, ran over and killed a bystander. The driver of that car wasn't taken into custody and hasn't been identified.

Authorities had previously detained Mr. Davis for a few hours two years ago, the two police officers said. 

In that incident, police stopped the car in which Mr. Davis was traveling in Lahore during a routine check in a posh part of town and found a number of weapons in the car, the officers said. But they let Mr. Davis go after orders from the central government, they added. 

The U.S. Embassy spokeswoman said reports about this detention were "unsubstantiated."

Shahnawaz Khan contributed to this article.


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## pakdefender

> Mr. Obama weighed in on the row Tuesday, saying Pakistan must release Mr. Davis under its commitments as a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a pact from the 1960s that guarantees diplomats immunity from prosecution. "If it starts being fair game on our ambassadors around the world, including in dangerous places*it means they can't do their job*," Mr. Obama told a news conference.



Carrying illegal firearms, spying and killing people is part of their 'job' ?!? Well then they better pack up and leave if that is the case and as far as Raymond Davis is concerned, he is not going any where

The case against him is getting stronger, Sen. Kerry went home today empty handed and the same day the court handed the American killer Raymond Davis a 14 day remand and the PPP govt has backed off saying that the courts will decide the killers fate.

Give it a rest old man, take your medicine, you will see this man being prosecuted and convicted in Pakistan


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## pakdefender

and I might add the mozzang, where these killings took place , is no 'dangerous place' , mozzang is best know for kite flying , there are two places in Lahore that are famous for kite flying , one is mozzang the other is samnabad

Its very fishy that this guys was roaming around in mozzang area , armed and ready to kill.


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## Mutee

@American Eagle you make few very good points indeed but it was not proved they were robbers it's yet to be proven initial police statement was not right and the police admitted it you are very right when you say inncoents pakistanis are killed by fellow countrymen and our crime rate but you have to admit it because of your contrite involvement in my countries affairs not blaming you for the crime rate but yes for a civil war like situation here


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## Developereo

VCheng said:


> Asim: That is absolutely WRONG. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The accused is PRESUMED INNOCENT until and unless proven guilty after DUE PROCESS.


 
Actually, that's not true.

The prosecution only has to prove that the bullets lodged in the victims' bodies were fired by Davis.

Then it's up to Davis to prove that his life was in imminent danger and he acted in self-defence. Just because the victims were alleged robbers is not sufficient. Davis has to show that the victims intended to harm him. This is where it gets confusing because there are conflicting reports about whether the victims brandished a gun at Davis.

But confusion is good enough. As long as there is one person supporting Davis' story, it creates reasonable doubt, and Davis will probably walk free.


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Asim: That is absolutely WRONG. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The accused is PRESUMED INNOCENT until and unless proven guilty after DUE PROCESS.


 
The prosecution has proved (or will prove) that he did kill two people. He has confessed to that part too. The prosecution does not have to prove that it wasn't pre-meditated, he needs to prove that. The prosecution can just go to the point where it proves murder, whether or not its premeditated becomes a part of the defence.

For that matter, the investigation team has punctured enough holes into the self-defence argument as well. Namely the witnesses stating that he shot at them, not the other way round. He shot them from the back. That they pointed a gun at him has only Davis's word. That Davis shot at them first and shot at them from the back, has witnesses.

Which is why the American defence has been to not to let it go to court.


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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> Asim: That is absolutely WRONG. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The accused is PRESUMED INNOCENT until and unless proven guilty after DUE PROCESS.



Totally wrong VCheng.

The Prosecution builds the case, The onus of proving their innocence lies with the defendant. 

mens rea and the actus reus.


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## VCheng

RescueRanger said:


> Totally wrong VCheng.
> 
> The Prosecution builds the case, The onus of proving their innocence lies with the defendant.
> 
> mens rea and the actus reus.



Whatever happened to:

_ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat _

(the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).

The prosecution builds the case to prove guilt. It is NOT the defendant who has to prove his/her innocence.


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## DV RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> why don't you tell it to the families of the innocent children and the families of the rape and sodomy victims----.
> 
> SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside.
> 
> The people and the world judges us and our character from what we do to our own and dear ones---that is what the world knows us by---and when an international issue comes up----all this dirt and that we have burried in our backyard---comes to the surface.
> 
> Nations look at us us and look at the legal precedence that we have setup in the past---the analysts will dig out all the dirt that they have about our legal system and throw it at our faces and let the world see it for itslef.
> 
> Social issues and geo-political issues sometimes are extremely close to each other than what one may want to admit.




Character of people in particular region can't be change and it remains same even after hundreds of years but a little/minor change, we have our own history & style of living and others have their own. you have to put them in their own places. Nobody has right to judge second nation, its totally unfair and without logic. 

It is common practice that character of nation get change in different scenario over internal and external issues. Not only in Pakistan but almost in every country. 
Legal systems are designed according to constitution & base on ground facts, who will dig it but only as it requires. Other nations have also same problem but may be we could dig out better in their legal system then they will dig in our. Leave it just think a general phenomena that nobody can stop people to criticize. Let them criticize. We have to do what we want.
No any law or constitution present in the world without defects or black holes. So which world and which nations?

Just open world crime statistics, evaluate where you got rank and what rank got about whom we are talking about.
A domestic pistol is useless on border fight, so for border fight there is Machine gun.

Davis case can't link with internal legal situations.


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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> Whatever happened to:
> 
> _ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat _
> 
> (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).


 
And yet you have to consider the fact the was there Mens Rea and Actus Reus? The facts in the case can not be just overruled by mere dictum. What about the Chain of Causation?



> At the time of death, the defendant's acts or omissions must be the operating and most substantial cause of death with no novus actus interveniens (Latin for "new act breaking in") to break the chain of causation. Thus, the defendant cannot choose how the victim is to act, nor what personality to have. No matter whether brave or foolish, the defendant must expect the victim to:
> 
> try to escape and if he or she dies in that attempt, the chain of causation is not broken; or
> try to fight back and so escalate the extent of the violence between them; or
> seek medical treatment for the injuries sustained and, even if mistakes are made by the medical staff, this will not break the chain of causation unless the mistakes become the more substantial cause of death.



House of Lords - Regina v. Smith (On Appeal From The Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))


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## VCheng

RescueRanger said:


> And yet you have to consider the fact the was there Mens Rea and Actus Reus? The facts in the case can not be just overruled by mere dictum. What about the Chain of Causation?
> 
> 
> 
> House of Lords - Regina v. Smith (On Appeal From The Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))



But Sir, even *before *we get to that, please consider the following:

"The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred by the Latin _Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat_ (the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty) is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, recognised in many nations. *The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt*. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies)."


Further, from your reference:

"The respondent was charged with murdering James McCullagh on the 16 November 1996. He put forward three defences: *(a) lack of intention to cause death or really serious harm; (b) provocation; (c) diminished responsibility*. The jury by a majority of ten to two convicted him of murder."

None of these conditons apply to RD's situation.

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## JayAtl

Sohni Dharti said:


> Actually, that's not true.
> 
> The prosecution only has to prove that the bullets lodged in the victims' bodies were fired by Davis.
> 
> Then it's up to Davis to prove that his life was in imminent danger and he acted in self-defence. Just because the victims were alleged robbers is not sufficient. Davis has to show that the victims intended to harm him. This is where it gets confusing because there are conflicting reports about whether the victims brandished a gun at Davis.
> 
> But confusion is good enough. As long as there is one person supporting Davis' story, it creates reasonable doubt, and Davis will probably walk free.


 


Asim Aquil said:


> The prosecution has proved (or will prove) that he did kill two people. He has confessed to that part too. The prosecution does not have to prove that it wasn't pre-meditated, he needs to prove that. The prosecution can just go to the point where it proves murder, whether or not its premeditated becomes a part of the defence.
> 
> For that matter, the investigation team has punctured enough holes into the self-defence argument as well. Namely the witnesses stating that he shot at them, not the other way round. He shot them from the back. That they pointed a gun at him has only Davis's word. That Davis shot at them first and shot at them from the back, has witnesses.
> 
> Which is why the American defence has been to not to let it go to court.


 


RescueRanger said:


> Totally wrong VCheng.
> 
> The Prosecution builds the case, The onus of proving their innocence lies with the defendant.
> 
> mens rea and the actus reus.


 
Question to each of you 3 . Is that the rule of law in your respective countries of residence? i.e. your guilty before being proved innocent vs innocent till proved guilty. What Vcheng is citing is American law and what even I think is law in any civilized country. 

let me explain; yes there is no doubt davis is the shooter, but the prosecution still has to show that it was his intent to commit *premeditated* murder and not self defense as davis defense will present( if this ever goes to trail). The burden of proof to prove a man is guilty *OF A CRIME* lies with the prosecution. ( self defense is not a crime)

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## RescueRanger

JayAtl said:


> Question to each of you 3 . Is that the rule of law in your respective countries of residence? i.e. your guilty before being proved innocent vs innocent till proved guilty. What Vcheng is citing is American law and what even I think is law in any civilized country.
> 
> let me explain; yes there is no doubt davis is the shooter, but the prosecution still has to show that it was his intent to commit *premeditated* murder and not self defense as davis defense will present( if this ever goes to trail). The burden of proof to prove a man is guilty *OF A CRIME* lies with the prosecution. ( self defense is not a crime)



I am talking about Actus reus, and we follow English Common Law here in Pakistan. *Which predates US laws. *


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## VCheng

RescueRanger said:


> I am talking about Actus reus, and we follow English Common Law here in Pakistan. *Which predates US laws. *


 
Sir, please consider that: Firstly, _Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat_ is a dictum of English Common Law that also comes into US law, just as it does in PPC, and secondly, RD is a US citizen with diplomatic immunity and thus subject to US law as a matter of jursidiction.


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## JayAtl

RescueRanger said:


> I am talking about Actus reus, and we follow English Common Law here in Pakistan. *Which predates US laws. *


 
with due respect , if you follow English common law- then your interpretation of your own laws is faulty. Let me ask you - does your prosecutor like under English law have to prove a crime took place? or does he hope the judge read media reports and watched in on TV? 

that very act of proving crime took place= burden on the prosecution. 

next question; In English law : You have to prove crime took place beyond reasonable doubt 

I understand in PAK courts people are put to death over blasphemy laws, with just hear say. so maybe it's the way things are in the PAK judicial system- but you sir are no English based judicial system anymore


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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> But Sir, even *before *we get to that, please consider the following:
> 
> "The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred by the Latin _Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat_ (the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty) is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, recognised in many nations. *The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt*. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies)."
> 
> 
> Further, from your reference:
> 
> "The respondent was charged with murdering James McCullagh on the 16 November 1996. He put forward three defences: *(a) lack of intention to cause death or really serious harm; (b) provocation; (c) diminished responsibility*. The jury by a majority of ten to two convicted him of murder."
> 
> None of these conditons apply to RD's situation.


 
Agreed, yet:


> He who does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption, meaning he needs no evidence to support his claim. Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party. However the incidence of burden of proof is affected by common law, statute and procedure.



And don't confuse:


> Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat


With 
Evidential burden: 


> Evidential burden can rest on either party, although it usually relates to matters of defence raised by the accused. Some defences impose an evidential burden on the defendant which, if met, imposes a legal burden on the prosecution. For example, if a person charged with murder pleads self-defense, the defendant must satisfy the evidential burden that there are some evidence suggesting self-defence. The legal burden will then fall on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was not acting in self-defence.



As we know that in House of Lords - Regina v. Acott the same issue of evidence cropped up and this case sets an interesting precedent. It will be very interesting to see how the RD case develops in the coming days.

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## RescueRanger

JayAtl said:


> err then , you interpretation of your won laws is faulty. Let me ask you - does your prosecutor like under English law have to prove a crime took place? or does he hope the judge read media reports and watched in on TV?
> 
> that very act of proving crime took place= burden on the prosecution.
> 
> next question; In English law : You have to prove crime took place beyond reasonable doubt?
> 
> I understand in PAK courts people are put to death over blasphemy laws, with just hear say. so maybe it's the way things are in the PAK judicial system- but you sire are no English based judicial system anymore


 
Please read my posts. And don't confuse the Sharia court with the Civil/Criminal courts in Pakistan. Please leave your pathetic mindset out of this thread.


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## VCheng

RR: Agreed. Let's see the legal bases for the case if and when it proceeds before discussing this interesting aspect further.

I found this bolded part interesting in your own quote, which, I think, supports my contention rather than yours:



> Evidential burden can rest on either party, although it usually relates to matters of defence raised by the accused. Some defences impose an evidential burden on the defendant which, if met, imposes a legal burden on the prosecution. For example, if a person charged with murder pleads self-defense, the defendant must satisfy the evidential burden that there are some evidence suggesting self-defence.* The legal burden will then fall on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was not acting in self-defence*.

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## RescueRanger

VCheng said:


> Sir, please consider that: Firstly, _Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat_ is a dictum of English Common Law that also comes into US law, just as it does in PPC, and secondly, RD is a US citizen with diplomatic immunity and thus subject to US law as a matter of jursidiction.


 
VCheng there is no argument on this, the argument is stemming from the various precedents in previous cases i.e RvAlcott (regrding the onus of proof on the prosecution)

Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force):


> the defendant who picked up a sword in self-defense when attacked in his home by three masked intruders armed with loaded handguns, killed one of them by slashing him repeatedly with that sword. The prosecution case was that, although he had initially acted in self defense, he had then lost his self-control and demonstrated a clear intent to kill the armed intruder. In fact, the defendant was himself a low-level cannabis dealer who kept the sword available to defend himself against other drug dealers. The Court of Appeal confirmed an eight-year term of imprisonment. In a non-criminal context, it would not be expected that ordinary householders who "go too far" when defending themselves against armed intruders would receive such a long sentence.




---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 AM ----------




VCheng said:


> RR: Agreed. Let's see the legal bases for the case if and when it proceeds before discussing this interesting aspect further.
> 
> I found this bolded part interesting in your own quote:


 
Agree good sir, as always it is a pleasure to talk with you.

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## JayAtl

RescueRanger said:


> Please read my posts. And don't confuse the Sharia court with the Civil/Criminal courts in Pakistan. Please leave your pathetic mindset out of this thread.



How is my mind pathetic when you stated you had English common law judicial system. I figured that's the system that as recent as today , was it? is indicting Ms, Sherry over blasphemy. But- let's not debate that portion anymore. just the below:
you chose to side step 99% of the post. does your prosecutor have to prove a crime took place? does he have to prove it took place beyond a reasonable doubt? if the answer is Yes: then inherently it means - burden is on the prosecution. 

This case you cite above:*"Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force)":*


Again it was the burden of the prosecution to prove that the defendant went from self defense to "excessive force". BUT again the burden was on the prosecution to prove that " excessive force"


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## RescueRanger

JayAtl said:


> How is my mind pathetic when you sated you had English common law judicial system.
> 
> anyways you chose to side step 99% of the post. does your prosecutor have to prove a crime took place? does he have to prove it took place beyond a reasonable doubt?


 
1. You clearly put a bellow the belt remark of how people are hung for blasphemy in civil/criminal courts (which actually falls under the remit of the Federal Shariat Court). 
2.


> you had English common law judicial system.


: The legal system is derived from English common law and is based on the much-amended 1973 constitution and Islamic law (sharia). The Supreme Court, provincial high courts, and other courts have jurisdiction over criminal and civil issues. The president appoints the Supreme Court&#8217;s chief justice and formally approves other Supreme Court justices as well as provincial high court judges on the advice of the chief justice. The Supreme Court has original, appellate, and advisory jurisdiction, and high courts have original and appellate jurisdiction.



> does your prosecutor have to prove a crime took place? does he have to prove it took place beyond a reasonable doubt?



Please read my posts i am not in the business of repeating myself, and go ahead and read the cases i have cited. Seek and you shall find.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

JayAtl said:


> he maybe no ordinary man - but your EX FM was known to obfuscate the truth many times. Btw, what does that make your current FM? who agrees that the guy has full diplomatic immunity?
> 
> Or are you saying ONLY if they agree with you they become and I quote you " a God Dam FM not an ordinary Pakistani"


 
What truth did Qureshi 'obfuscate many times'?

And who is the current Foreign Minister that you are quoting as having confirmed Davis's blanket immunity?

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## RescueRanger

> another additional district and sessions judge sought comments from the Lytton Road Police SHO on a petition seeking addition of section 7 of the Ant-Terrorism Act to the double-murder FIR No 47/2011 registered against Davis under section 302.


Magistrate orders 14-day remand Court orders Davis`s name on ECL | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

This is very interesting...

According to Pakistan ATA:


> "7. Punishment for terrorist act -- Whoever commits a terrorist act,--
> 
> (i) referred to in paragraph (a) of section 6, shall--
> 
> (a) if such act has resulted in the death of any person be punished with death; and
> 
> (b) in any other case, be punishable with imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than seven years but may extend to life imprisonment, and shall also be liable to fine; and


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## JayAtl

RescueRanger said:


> 1. You clearly put a bellow the belt remark of how people are hung for blasphemy in civil/criminal courts (which actually falls under the remit of the Federal Shariat Court).
> 2.
> : The legal system is derived from English common law and is based on the much-amended 1973 constitution and Islamic law (sharia). The Supreme Court, provincial high courts, and other courts have jurisdiction over criminal and civil issues. The president appoints the Supreme Court&#8217;s chief justice and formally approves other Supreme Court justices as well as provincial high court judges on the advice of the chief justice. The Supreme Court has original, appellate, and advisory jurisdiction, and high courts have original and appellate jurisdiction.
> 
> 
> 
> Please read my posts i am not in the business of repeating myself, and go ahead and read the cases i have cited. Seek and you shall find.


 
First, I honestly was not aware that there was another subset court that could hand out death sentences and it hold the same girth or supersede your ' official judicial system'. I was merely going on what you said and was in no mood to take any shots at you. 

This case you cite above:"Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force)":


Again it was the burden of the prosecution to prove that the defendant went from self defense to "excessive force". BUT again the burden was on the prosecution to prove that " excessive force" . 

bottom line: If you have a different flavor of the judicial law, that's A-okay. I'm not debating your internal system. the argument started when you guys said, effectively- every one brought in front of the court is presumed guilty from the get go. And that's not true of English common laws nor American laws.


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## JayAtl

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What truth did Qureshi 'obfuscate many times'?
> 
> And who is the current Foreign Minister that you are quoting as having confirmed Davis's blanket immunity?


 
what diplomatic obfuscation? his entire foreign policy portfolio vis-a-vis his indian claims ignored by the world. personally, the gent was too inarticulate and almost amateurish from my perspective. He had this uncanny ability to insult in public, his counter parts after he invited them to Pakistan, and in midst of a diplomatic negotiation. 

I thought the new lady in charge of Foreign Policy effectively came out stating that quershi was looking out for his own interest and this was along with many top PPP leaders slamming qureshi? I may have misunderstood. 

BTW- name me your EX FM's success stories in foreign policy_ from the time he took over? what did he accomplish for pakistan? I have asked this question a couple of times and nobody has taken me up on it.


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## RescueRanger

JayAtl said:


> First, I honestly was not aware that there was another subset court that could hand out death sentences and it hold the same girth or supersede your ' official judicial system'. I was merely going on what you said and was in no mood to take any shots at you.
> 
> This case you cite above:"Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force)":
> 
> 
> Again it was the burden of the prosecution to prove that the defendant went from self defense to "excessive force". BUT again the burden was on the prosecution to prove that " excessive force" .
> 
> bottom line: If ou have a different flavor of the judicial law, that's A-okay. I'm not debating your internal system. the argument started when you guys said, effectively- every one brought in front of the court is presumed guilty from the get go. And thats not true of English common laws . nor American laws.



That's okay, for an outside observer the Pakistani legal system can be a very complex system to try and understand. I am not arguing about the burden of proof resting on the prosecution, i agree it dose. However i am talking about the chain of causation, balance of probabilities. For example:



> stipulates that where a defendant relies on some "exception, exemption, proviso, excuse or qualification" in his defence, the legal burden of proof as to that exception falls on the defendant, though only on the balance of probabilities. For example, a person charged with being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle can raise the defence that there was no likelihood of his driving while drunk.[7] The prosecution have the legal burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant exceeded the legal limit of alcohol and was in control of a motor vehicle. Possession of the keys is usually sufficient to prove control, even if the defendant is not in the vehicle and is perhaps in a nearby bar. That being proved, the defendant has the legal burden of proof on the balance of probabilities that he was not likely to drive.





Anyway it is very interesting that a petition has been submited to the session judge to apply section 7 of the ATA in addition to the double murder. 

If this petition is accepted, which i very much doubt, then what we will have is a Terrorism cases lodged against davis, which will complicate things further.

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## American Eagle

This court stuff is all a waste of words. Mr. Davis has full Diplomtic Immunity and the court has ordered two things:

1. Court has Ordered the FO to present and answer the single question...does Mr. Davis in the eyes of the FO have Diplomatic Immunity.

2. Instead of answering the court's Order the FO issued it's opinion letter in the affirmative, Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity, to the Pakistani Interior Ministry, not to the court???

3. Meanwhile the Court has extended Davis remand in custody for a new 14 day period of time.

International Law is at issue here, Diplomatic Immunity, and the President of the United States had told "the world" in his press conference that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and to release him into US custody immeidately without further delay.



3.

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## Pak_Sher

When a Jordanian diplomat ran over and killed a girl in D.C, US asked Jordan to lift the diplomatic immunity since a human was dead. Now as per US principal shouldn't Pakistan do the same thing?

Jordan did lift the diplomatic immunity and the diplomat got a 15 year sentence. So why Mr. Davis has to go free?


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## RescueRanger

American Eagle said:


> This court stuff is all a waste of words. Mr. Davis has full Diplomtic Immunity and the court has ordered two things:
> 
> 1. Court has Ordered the FO to present and answer the single question...does Mr. Davis in the eyes of the FO have Diplomatic Immunity.
> 
> 2. Instead of answering the court's Order the FO issued it's opinion letter in the affirmative, Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity, to the Pakistani Interior Ministry, not to the court???
> 
> 3. Meanwhile the Court has extended Davis remand in custody for a new 14 day period of time.
> 
> International Law is at issue here, Diplomatic Immunity, and the President of the United States had told "the world" in his press conference that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and to release him into US custody immeidately without further delay.
> 
> 
> 
> 3.


 
When we were trained by the instructors from the US, i remember reading a wonderful motto on one of the emblems on the slides, it simply read:
"Liberty and Justice for All". I ask you sir, why do you deny the Pakistani people that same right to "justice"... Let this run it's course, if indeed he has diplomatic immunity, then he will be set free in due time. 

He is not under duress, nor is he being treated the way a criminal would be treated in Pakistan ( this much i can assure you):




Uploaded with ImageShack.us



> International Law is at issue here, Diplomatic Immunity, and the President of the United States had told "the world" in his press conference that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and to release him into US custody immeidately without further delay.



Hmm... but then why undermine our courts, why pressurize the judiciary using the executive? If indeed he is innocent, he will be let free ( all in due time of course).

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## JayAtl

Pak_Sher said:


> When a Jordanian diplomat ran over and killed a girl in D.C, US asked Jordan to lift the diplomatic immunity since a human was dead. Now as per US principal shouldn't Pakistan do the same thing?
> 
> Jordan did lift the diplomatic immunity and the diplomat got a 15 year sentence. So why Mr. Davis has to go free?



The operative word was ' they asked' and he killed a girl driving drunk I believe? ... this guy davis =self defense case.


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## Pak_Sher

JayAtl said:


> The operative word was ' they asked' and he killed a girl driving drunk I believe? ... this guy davis =self defense case.



Self Defense:

(01) Diplomats are suppose to obtain permission before going anywhere, which he did not obtain?

(02) He had fake care registration papers and fake license plates?

(03) He was carrying illegal firearms, where is the Vienna Convention on that?

(04) Why he withdrew a 6 figure amount in rupees before he reahced the inner city?

(05) Why he had 3 different sim cards under 3 differnt names, GPS devices, spying gadget?

Please do not act as the High Court Judge before you write your non-prudent comments. And one more thing he was working for the US Consulate and consulate employess do not have the same diplomatic immunity as embassey staffers. 

Reagrding the Jordanian diplomat, drinking is legal, he killed a girl, man slaughter 15 years.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

JayAtl said:


> what diplomatic obfuscation? his entire foreign policy portfolio vis-a-vis his indian claims ignored by the world. personally, the gent was too inarticulate and almost amateurish from my perspective. He had this uncanny ability to insult in public, his counter parts after he invited them to Pakistan, and in midst of a diplomatic negotiation.


The above includes no substantiation of your 'obfuscation of the truth many times' claims, not even one. It is merely your opinion on how he conducted Pakistan's foreign policy.


> I thought the new lady in charge of Foreign Policy effectively came out stating that quershi was looking out for his own interest and this was along with many top PPP leaders slamming qureshi? I may have misunderstood.


The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (different from Foreign Minister) is Hina Rabbani Khar, who has not issued any statement on Davis's immunity AFAIK. Fauzia Wahab, a PPP legislator and PPP information secretary, made the immunity comments, which were rejected and denied by the Government.


> BTW- name me your EX FM's success stories in foreign policy_ from the time he took over? what did he accomplish for pakistan? I have asked this question a couple of times and nobody has taken me up on it.


That is irrelevant to this thread and your claim of 'many obfuscations of the truth'.

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## Pak_Sher

Check *JayAtl's *posts, he is thanking Americans and thanking Pakistani posts, just to create more issues. Please be constructive so you can contribute to the PDF and not push your hidden Indian agenda.


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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Pakistani press has in fact done an excellent job, by giving the public access to relevant documents, statements and interviews with concerned officials, from all sides.


Can you point out what Pakistani newspapers (not counting comments sections or anonymous letters) have advanced my arguments, specifically that (1) the diplomatic treaties are the highest law of the land, (2) that under full immunity Davis cannot be jailed or prosecuted for any reason, and that (3) even under "consular" immunity he can't be held in jail once the police on the scene had determined that no "grave crime" had been committed? 



> Pakistanis, not just here, but on the comments sections of the major English Pakistani newspapers, have pulled out and studied the text of the conventions governing diplomatic immunity for consulate workers, and pointed out how the GoP is in fact doing nothing illegal.


Remember, in any determination of truth one hears and evaluates arguments both pro and con.


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## Pak_Sher

Solomon2 said:


> Can you point out what Pakistani newspapers (not counting comments sections or anonymous letters) have advanced my arguments, specifically that (1) the diplomatic treaties are the highest law of the land, (2) that under full immunity Davis cannot be jailed or prosecuted for any reason, and that (3) even under "consular" immunity he can't be held in jail once the police on the scene had determined that no "grave crime" had been committed?
> 
> Remember, in any determination of truth one hears and evaluates arguments both pro and con.



This is your opinion, back that up with facts or answer my questions in post# 3507 on this page.


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## Solomon2

Pak_Sher said:


> (01) Diplomats are suppose to obtain permission before going anywhere, which he did not obtain?
> (02) He had fake care registration papers and fake license plates?
> (03) He was carrying illegal firearms, where is the Vienna Convention on that?
> (04) Why he withdrew a 6 figure amount in rupees before he reahced the inner city?
> (05) Why he had 3 different sim cards under 3 differnt names, GPS devices, spying gadget?


Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.

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## Solomon2

Pak_Sher said:


> This is your opinion, back that up with facts -


What, exactly, is "just my opinion"?


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## charlietophits

American Eagle said:


> No one in their right mind disregards deaths by violence.
> 
> 
> This said, if you can read the most recent three or four days of postings therein you will find that the US Department of State, US Embassy inside Pakitan, did authorize and required Mr. Davis to carry fire arms in conjunction with his diplomatic job.
> 
> That closes your fire arms found in Mr. Davis car question out as far as I am concerned in that Mr. Davis was faced with armed bandits who in his view threatened his life, limb, and cash. Please remember that Mr. Davis had just goten in plain public view cash at a Paksitani bank ATM.
> 
> I, me only, think the two robbers cased Mr. Davis getting cash from the ATM, and knowing that most Westerners carry cell phones, looked forward to stealing both his cash and his cell phones.
> 
> .


 

The embassy authorized davis to carry firearms?. Is this a joke? The embassy authorized him but was this approved by the Pakistani officials? Or is this normal procedure also authorized in the Vienna convention ? You can't carry firearms in another country just because your embassy "authorized you to do so", or are you Americans now trying to make a joke out of Pakistan's system?

It has already been proved that those two guys were not robbers at all. At a signal they had stopped their bike in front of davis's car. And that is how he shot them. 4 fragmentation bullets in the back of 1 guy and 3 in the other. And people standing there say that he came out and fired on the guys lying on the road too to make sure that they were dead. 

Please explain to me which sort of duty was davis doing that he had to come to Pakistan 9 times in the past year alone? 

I think that davis should be thoroughly be investigated by our ISI. I am sure we will find a lot of other facts, which will tie up the "sensitive area pictures" which were found in the digital camera of davis.
America supported TTP and this is an open secret. Some one used to inform Baitullah Masud about the Pakistan Army's troop movements and that was how he was able to evade them.
I was watching CNN when the news came that Baitullah Masud had been killed in a drone attack. There was a lot of consternation at that time in America about this fact.
The actual fact is that####### was giving information to Masud and that was how he was able to evade our army . Very high sophisticated encryption devices were found with him, so much so that even though our army was able to intercept the transmission that he received, they were unable to decode them at all. So a chip was thrown at his place and the drone then bombed it 
And even though Pakistan gave the location of Masud many times to America to bomb him, still America refused. If America supported TTP then its safe to say that they may also have been involved in the bombings in Lahore too, (which was claimed by TTP).

Davis is enjoying facility of an A class jail, eating Chinese food and abusing the jailers, and had the darence to even abuse the jailers for the azaan. 

Don't tell me that diplomats are not screened for their mentality before being given such a task?

More later


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## Pak_Sher

Solomon2 said:


> Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.


 
May be time has come to change that. No more Blackwater covert oops under diplomatic cover.


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## charlietophits

Solomon2 said:


> Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.


 
It is quite clear to me that davis may have killed the two persons according to an agenda.

By what soloman has said it is also quite clear that raymond will not be tried in America.

But right now, keeping all other things aside, the disguise found in the car along with the digital camera with "sensitive pictures" are quite enough to label him as SPY.
So we don't need any Vienna Shevianna convention on that 

End of story.


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## Solomon2

Pak_Sher said:


> May be time has come to change that. No more Blackwater covert oops under diplomatic cover.


No more protection of U.S. diplomatic personnel either. (As explained earlier, the employment of specialist security contractors in high-risk Pakistan makes sense.) In any event the "proper" venue to change that is through multinational negotiations. That can't change the situation here and now.

What is going on now appears to be an illegal form of judicial advocacy - illegal because under the Vienna Conventions Pakistani courts don't have jurisdiction and can't even determine who has immunity and who does not. I can't find any justification in international law why, even if Davis has the limited immunity some Pakistanis claim he has, he can still be held in a Pakistani jail. No wonder there are reports that Davis himself is making a lot of noise and being unpleasant in prison: from his point of view he has 100% diplomatic immunity, thus any Pakistani who holds him in confinement is a criminal under Pakistan's own laws. He can't think that any of the Pakistanis he comes into contact with merit anything in the way of personal honor, can he?

Perhaps the next step for the U.S. is to facilitate a suit by Davis against Pakistan for wrongful imprisonment. Since Pakistan has junked the Vienna Conventions when it comes to Davis, in response he'll be able to sue without Pakistan enjoying sovereign immunity.


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## Solomon2

charlietophits said:


> It is quite clear to me that davis may have killed the two persons according to an agenda.


Protecting one's self from robbery does not qualify as an agenda. If it is "quite clear to you" otherwise, share!



> By what soloman has said it is also quite clear that raymond will not be tried in America.


I think the Pakistani government would have to actively pursue the matter for that to happen, or any proceeding will die from lack of evidence. It can be done.



> But right now, keeping all other things aside, the disguise found in the car along with the digital camera with "sensitive pictures" are quite enough to label him as SPY. So we don't need any Vienna Shevianna convention on that


Nothing in the Vienna Conventions say that a diplomat surrenders his immunity if accused of spying or impersonating someone else. All that can be done is to expel him. There is nothing unusual about it.


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## Pak_Sher

There are thousands of Pakistani victims and handicapped people of drone attack waiting to sue the US as well, lets just not open the can of worms, because US may be liable for money equivalent of a US Yearly Budget.

If US belives in liberty and justic for all, then let Mr. Davis face the justice.


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## Solomon2

charlietophits said:


> The embassy authorized davis to carry firearms?. Is this a joke? The embassy authorized him but was this approved by the Pakistani officials? Or is this normal procedure also authorized in the Vienna convention ? You can't carry firearms in another country just because your embassy "authorized you to do so", or are you Americans now trying to make a joke out of Pakistan's system? Please explain to me which sort of duty was davis doing that he had to come to Pakistan 9 times in the past year alone? Don't tell me that diplomats are not screened for their mentality before being given such a task?


Under the terms of the treaties Pakistan signed, diplomats with immunity are not subject to the jurisdiction of courts in Pakistan. All you can do to a diplomat who violates procedure is expel him.

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## Solomon2

Pak_Sher said:


> There are thousands of Pakistani victims and handicapped people of drone attack waiting to sue the US as well, lets just not open the can of worms -


Sure, go ahead, in the U.S. you can _try_ to sue anybody for anything. 



> If US belives in liberty and justic for all, then let Mr. Davis face the justice.


Yes, but the proper venue for that is an American court, not a Pakistani one.


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## monitor

Solomon2 said:


> Sure, go ahead, in the U.S. you can _try_ to sue anybody for anything.
> 
> Yes, but the proper venue for that is an American court, not a Pakistani one.


 
he committed the crime in Pakistan so why not to trial him in Pakistani soil ? If the al kaida terrorist of afganistan can taken to guantamo bay for trial as they committed crime against american people, in the same way Pakistan should have the right to trial him in Pakistani soil .


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## monitor

Solomon2 said:


> Under the terms of the treaties Pakistan signed, diplomats with immunity are not subject to the jurisdiction of courts in Pakistan. All you can do to a diplomat who violates procedure is expel him.


 
No concrete prove is available that Davis was an diplomat .


----------



## charlietophits

Solomon2 said:


> No more protection of U.S. diplomatic personnel either. (As explained earlier, the employment of specialist security contractors in high-risk Pakistan makes sense.) In any event the "proper" venue to change that is through multinational negotiations. That can't change the situation here and now.
> 
> What is going on now appears to be an illegal form of judicial advocacy - illegal because under the Vienna Conventions Pakistani courts don't have jurisdiction and can't even determine who has immunity and who does not. I can't find any justification in international law why, even if Davis has the limited immunity some Pakistanis claim he has, he can still be held in a Pakistani jail. No wonder there are reports that Davis himself is making a lot of noise and being unpleasant in prison: from his point of view he has 100% diplomatic immunity, thus any Pakistani who holds him in confinement is a criminal under Pakistan's own laws. He can't think that any of the Pakistanis he comes into contact with merit anything in the way of personal honor, can he?
> 
> Perhaps the next step for the U.S. is to facilitate a suit by Davis against Pakistan for wrongful imprisonment. Since Pakistan has junked the Vienna Conventions when it comes to Davis, in response he'll be able to sue without Pakistan enjoying sovereign immunity.


 
I really cannot understand you solomon. You have turned a blind eye to the glaring fact that davis committed pre-meditated murder, and not an accidental killing like running over some pedestrian. If such a case had happened, then I am sure that the Govt of Pakistan would have pacified the family of the dead person, the American Embassy would have paid blood money, and the person would have been let go without much fanfare in the media about it.
The case here is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. HE SHOT TWO PERSONS!. 

Now what you are saying about davis instituting a suit against us is the biggest joke I have ever heard. 

If you think America can get away with murdering people in Pakistan, then you should all pack up and leave Pakistan. And good riddance too.

Do you really think that we are going to allow America to make a mockery out of our justice system? I think not. 
Also now the case to be run on davis should be one of a spy and not that of a consulate.


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## Solomon2

monitor said:


> he committed the crime in Pakistan so why not to trial him in Pakistani soil ?


He has immunity, so any trial must be in U.S. courts. If he didn't have immunity Davis would just be another unremarkable American who got in trouble and ended up in jail overseas.



> If the al kaida terrorist of afganistan can taken to guantamo bay for trial as they committed crime against american people, in the same way Pakistan should have the right to trial him in Pakistani soil .


1)The U.S. did not and does not recognize Al Qaeda as a sovereign entity, nor (2) has Al-Qaeda signed the Vienna Conventions that Pakistan has (nor can it!) , and (3) Davis didn't commit a crime against the Pakistani people as Al-Qaeda did to America.


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## Solomon2

charlietophits said:


> I really cannot understand you solomon. You have turned a blind eye to the glaring fact that davis committed pre-meditated murder -


I strongly doubt that's the case, since the initial police report said it was self-defense. The police cover-up claiming "murder" came later. 



> Now what you are saying about davis instituting a suit against us is the biggest joke I have ever heard.


No joke. Wrongful imprisonment is a serious matter, especially to Mr. Davis. Eventually he or his estate will be able to seize Pakistani government property in the U.S. to meet a court-ordered settlement - and the longer Davis is in prison, the more property that will cost Pakistan.



> If you think America can get away with murdering people in Pakistan, then you should all pack up and leave Pakistan. And good riddance too.


So when the next flood, earthquake, or Taliban army strikes Pakistan what will you do? Keep us Americans away, condemning millions of your countrymen to death or oppression?



> Do you really think that we are going to allow America to make a mockery out of our justice system?


Get with the program, dude: diplomatic immunity IS part of your justice system! 



> Also now the case to be run on davis should be one of a spy and not that of a consulate.


Because what you really want is the satisfaction of killing an American, right? I suppose any American would do. Should I stop by and knock on your door? Will that satisfy your blood lust?


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## charlietophits

Solomon2 said:


> Under the terms of the treaties Pakistan signed, diplomats with immunity are not subject to the jurisdiction of courts in Pakistan. All you can do to a diplomat who violates procedure is expel him.


 
Show me just where in the Vienna convention it is written "That even if a diplomat commits cold blooded murder, he will not charged for it"?

Oh and our contention now is that he is actually a spy. A lot of facts corroborate on that point. So he should be tried as such. 

And stop harping on "_Vienna Convention , Vienna Convention_" like a broken record. 
Hey did I say HAARP or did I say HAARP. 

And believe me that is another story, which I am willing to discuss.
the 9/11 fiasco did not fool anyone either. 
Oh and I actually saw the 747 crash on the Pentagon too. The plane must have lost its engines on the way.
And by the way have a look at the "PENTALAWN" after the crash. 

You can't fool all of the people all of the time. Jews knew about it before the crash. You can't turn the plane travelling at the speed of 550 km.


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## Solomon2

charlietophits said:


> Show me just where in the Vienna convention it is written "That even if a diplomat commits cold blooded murder, he will not charged for it"? Oh and our contention now is that he is actually a spy -


Do your own homework, Charlie. I've had enough of helping everyone for tonight.



> Oh and I actually saw the 747 crash on the Pentagon too. The plane must have lost its engines on the way -


And if you're doing this just for fun why should I respond to you at all.


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## monitor

Blood money may help release US diplomat in Lahore 

Jonaid Iqbal in Islamabad 

Raymond Davis, the American charged by the Punjab Police with premeditated murder of two Pakistani citizens at Lahore earlier this month appears to be an important person in the US to have drawn the sympathy of Secretary of State Hilary Clinton. She requested the Pakistan Government to set him free because he enjoyed diplomatic immunity. He even had President Barack Hussein Obama to speak for him. The US President asked Pakistan to release Davis because he cannot be tried on the strength of 1961 Vienna diplomatic rules.
Senator John Kerry came to Pakistan especially for him last Monday. Some commentators said that the Senator had come with the hope that he would get the man released and bring back Raymond Davis on the same plane with him. This did not happen. The Senator returned last Wednesday alone.
Senator Kerry is viewed here as a friend and the author of Kerry-Luger Bill which helped out Pakistan with $ 7.5 billion package - $1.5 each year for five years for Pakistani civil administration. Some of that money has been held over quite often and the United States explains it as audit problem.
From the premises of the U.S. Consulate General at Lahore Senator Kerry gave a news conference at Lahore, saying he has come on a day when this country as well as the Muslim world was celebrating the birth anniversary of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) the last Prophet of Allah Almighty on earth, and since the Prophet was so compassionate and merciful he asked for humane treatment for Raymond who was in jail in Pakistan awaiting trial by the courts. Since he had come on a mission he repeated the usual argument about the diplomatic status of the man concerned. He also assured Pakistanis that if Raymond is released he will be tried in the United States. He even regretted the incident and sympathized with the bereaved family
Meanwhile, in the Raymond Davis issue, some moves are being made to get Raymond Davis out of the jam. Last Wednesday night a cleric and a newspaper editor appeared on the state TV and they suggested a way out - in the form of blood money - which if accepted by the family of those killed, could be the solution.
In fact Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani had also mentioned the subject in his speech at the Eid-e- Miladun Nabi conference last Wednesday. He thought out aloud that if the families (of those killed) accepted the idea it might lead to a solution. Information Minister Firdaus Ashiq Awan talking to the media also brought this up saying the government would think of other things but only after the court gives its decision on the case. At the same time he also said that he had received some kind words which he hoped would be acted upon soon.
Meanwhile, the impression ones gets from informed quarters is that Senator Kerry was clearly informed that the diplomatic status of Davis could not be established from documents at the Pakistan foreign office. Hence the US Embassy must await the decision that local courts make in this country and that adherence to and respect of courts is also mentioned as term of reference in the diplomatic texts. The matter is in a court of law and sub-judice, and therefore all concerned should await the court's decision.


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## charlietophits

The people he killed were Pakistanis. That in itself is a crime.

You people have brought the war in Afghanistan at the doorstep of Pakistan, ruined our economy in a 100 different ways. 

You mean also that he can be made to stand on trial in an American court. How will the persons witness to the murders attend the court? No, he should be tried in Pakistan and made to pay with his own blood.


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## charlietophits

Solomon2 said:


> I strongly doubt that's the case, since the initial police report said it was self-defense. The police cover-up claiming "murder" came later.
> 
> No joke. Wrongful imprisonment is a serious matter, especially to Mr. Davis. Eventually he or his estate will be able to seize Pakistani government property in the U.S. to meet a court-ordered settlement - and the longer Davis is in prison, the more property that will cost Pakistan.
> 
> So when the next flood, earthquake, or Taliban army strikes Pakistan what will you do? Keep us Americans away, condemning millions of your countrymen to death or oppression?
> 
> Get with the program, dude: diplomatic immunity IS part of your justice system!
> 
> Because what you really want is the satisfaction of killing an American, right? I suppose any American would do. Should I stop by and knock on your door? Will that satisfy your blood lust?


 

Right now I think that Pakistan should be confiscating America's property for spying on our country, and conducting terrorist activities in our cities.

If you think that your ambassadors are not safe in Pakistan and that they should hire private contractors who can run roughshod over anything which comes in their way, you are definitely wrong.
If they feel that they are not protected properly, then they should leave. Period. No ifs and buts. 

Or ask the Pakistan Govt to give them special protection.


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## jahangeer yousaf

Solomon2 said:


> Do your own homework, Charlie. I've had enough of helping everyone for tonight.
> 
> And if you're doing this just for fun why should I respond to you at all.



the point is we will bring you to your knee like we did when we stopped your supply .........................beside ramind does not has any immunity while investigating he accepted that he is not ambassador ...... and where on the earth you read that initial report given by punjab police is self defense


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## Abu Basit

*LHC: Action to be taken against driver, who crushed Abadul Rahman*

The Lahore High Court has ordered to take strict action against the driver and the car which crushed Abadul Rahman to death. 

The chief justice Lahore high court received a letter by Asad Mazoor Butt, representing Ijaz Rahman. The lawyer stated that although the police have registered a case against the driver, the police with the help of the Punjab Government have not been able to seize the vehicle involved in the accident and nor have they been able to arrest the driver. 

According to the letter, the police have not even recording the statement of Ijaz Rahman, brother of the victim Abadul Rahman who was crushed to death by the American consulate car. 

The chief justice Lahore high court ordered the Punjab government to arrest the driver and seize the vehicle involved in the accident. The court has also ordered the police to record the statement of the victims brother, Ijaz Rahman.


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## charlietophits

GUNNER said:


> *Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions*
> 
> A court in Pakistan has delayed a hearing to decide whether an American who shot dead two men in Lahore last month has diplomatic immunity. The arrest of Raymond Davis has severely damaged relations between the countries. Much of the detail in the case remains unclear - the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan looks at some of the unanswered questions.
> 
> *Is Raymond Davis a diplomat?*
> 
> If you are thinking of a suavely dressed man in a three-piece suit who holds meetings with local officials to further or broaden his country's agenda, you would be wrong. Mr Davis was definitely not employed for his diplomatic skills - he is more a "hands-on" person, working in what the US embassy says is its "administrative and technical affairs section". Reports from the US say he is a former special forces soldier who left the military in 2003 and is working for the US embassy in Pakistan. As such, the US insists he is covered by the Vienna Convention which guarantees immunity from prosecution for all diplomatic staff.
> 
> *Could he be a spy?*
> 
> Many Pakistanis believe he is - there seem few other credible explanations as to why he was going around Lahore with a Glock pistol in a car with local number plates without informing local authorities. It is a requirement for embassy staff - especially those from Western embassies - to inform local police of their movements, simply because they are prime targets for militants in Pakistan. Mr Davis's department in the US embassy is widely seen in Pakistan as a cover for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operations. Mr Davis himself said he was a consultant employed by the US government. Researchers in the US say that since leaving the military, Mr Davis worked for a security firm called Hyperion LLC. But subsequent investigations by the US media have now shown that Hyperion exists only as a website. The offices that the company says it has in Orlando have been vacant for several years and the numbers on its website are unlisted.
> 
> *Can Mr Davis be convicted for the murders?*
> 
> Maybe. It all depends on how eager the Pakistani authorities are to punish him. The fact that he is possibly a spy does not mean he is not covered by diplomatic immunity. It is common practice for intelligence services across the world to send operatives under the cover of assignments to embassies. Both Pakistani and US "diplomats" have been caught in such situations - and every time have been asked to leave the host country immediately with no possibility of a return. That is the maximum punishment that has been levied in the overwhelming majority of cases in countries which have signed the Vienna Convention. However, in some countries there are exceptions for serious offences committed, such as murder. Pakistan is one of those countries. The matter is now in the hands of the judiciary. But it is important to remember that Mr Davis has been charged with murder - the maximum sentence here is the death penalty.
> 
> *Should Mr Davis have been carrying a gun?*
> 
> Legally speaking, only Pakistani citizens with licences issued by the interior ministry are allowed to carry arms. No foreigner is allowed to carry arms, except soldiers or guards within the premises of an embassy. Both Pakistani nationals and foreigners caught carrying arms can be charged under a Pakistani criminal law which stipulates a jail term of six months to two years in addition to a fine. Mr Davis has also been charged under this law.
> 
> *Was he acting in self-defence?*
> 
> That was the initial plea made by Mr Davis and the US embassy. However, subsequent investigations by the police, forensic labs and the local and international media suggest that the two men were driving away from Mr Davis when they were shot. In February Lahore's police chief said that Mr Davis was guilty of "cold-blooded murder" - he said that no fingerprints had been uncovered on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men. Furthermore he said that tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazines of their guns, not the chambers, suggesting they weren't about to shoot him. On the face of it, this leaves Mr Davis's claim that they were robbers - with one even apparently cocking a gun at his head - looking very thin. In addition, police say ballistics evidence shows that the pair were shot in the back - which again suggests they were moving away from Mr Davis, rather than about to attack him.
> 
> *Who were the Pakistanis that Mr Davis shot?*
> 
> In his initial statement, Mr Davis said they were robbers who were trying to steal his valuables. He and the US embassy have maintained this story. However, the men have no criminal records as such. Both have been identified as residents of Lahore by the police. The pair were carrying licensed pistols - a fact which led many to believe they might indeed have been robbers. However, security sources in Lahore say that they were part-time or low-level operatives for the local intelligence services. Although reports are sketchy about what they were doing in relation to Mr Davis, security officials believe it could be the case of a surveillance operation gone horribly wrong. Pakistani intelligence services routinely tail and monitor all embassy staff, Western or otherwise.
> 
> *What about the second car and its victim?*
> 
> A side event to the main drama concerning Mr Davis was the fact a third man was also killed during the incident. He was an innocent bystander run over by a US embassy vehicle, which was initially said to have arrived to rescue Mr Davis. The fact that an embassy vehicle was able to get to the spot so quickly was a source of astonishment to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the geography of Lahore. Given the incident was over within minutes, it seems incredible that anyone could negotiate the 12km (7.4-mile) 40-minute drive in peak traffic in less than five minutes. But subsequent investigations have now shown that the second car - a Toyota Landcruiser - was with Mr Davis at the time of the incident. In fact, according to eyewitnesses, Mr Davis was leading and clearing the way for the Toyota when the incident took place. In the light of what happened afterwards, it seems Mr Davis was in "protective mode" and opened fire to "secure" whoever or whatever was in the Toyota - the interior of this vehicle was not visible as its windows were tinted. It is evident in local TV footage that the second vehicle is going away from Mr Davis at the time of the incident. As it disappears into the dust, Mr Davis calmly pulls over and gives himself up. Pakistani authorities have asked for the Landcruiser and its driver to be handed over - a request with which the US has yet to comply.
> 
> *What about behind-the-scenes negotiations?*
> 
> As well as public pressure, US officials have also privately warned Pakistan's government of far-reaching and severe consequences if Mr Davis is convicted. Unnamed US officials have also used the media to issue veiled warnings to Pakistan that diplomatic ties could be cut and all aid stopped. Despite Islamabad's public stance on Mr Davis, Pakistani officials are said to have privately assured Washington that he will eventually be released. However, public pressure means that at the moment this could lead to a massive anti-government backlash. Pakistan's Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has hinted that blood money could be paid to the families of the two men Mr Davis admits shooting, which could enable his release. There is speculation that US officials may try to establish contacts with the families in this regard. However, it is not clear that Mr Davis has been charged under laws which would allow blood money to be paid.
> 
> 
> BBC News - Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions


 

This is a very good post. The best I have seen and I would advise all readers to read this up.

So davis was / is actually a mercenary. No place for mercenaries in Pakistan.

So now we should be looking for the people in the other car. They should be expelled from Pakistan after paying blood money .
Not davis, no he should be tried here.

end of story

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## MastanKhan

saad445566 said:


> Same could be said to you. You can also man up and tell your thoughts to the parents of the victims of Raymond's shooting.
> 
> "SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside."
> 
> Yes and the character of Americans can be well discussed, if you know what I mean.
> 
> I agree with you that 'a' bacteria is part of a larger family i.e. social behaviour of a nation reflects the character--.
> 
> Can I point some guns at you and ask you some questions of charismatic society i.e. America? The point is, as it was, there is a line between up roaring because of a social problem and a problem which is national and international.
> 
> The case of Ann Coulter, is an internal issue of the U.S, her social acceptance but a Pakistani American--maybe a diplomat, killing an accused on American streets is another issue. Moreover, the reaction was intense from the public because Pakistanis DO NOT like Amrikans.


 
Hi,

Before I offer my condolence to that family, after I had recieved the info that the two guys were of a suspectable character, I would have searched the house first and foremost of both the men. Secondly---I would have talked to the people in the neighbourhood about the them.

Now the talk is spun about a pak diplomat doing something like that in the u s----well truth be told---the u s won't give a rat's ar-se and throw the diplomat in the jail and specially one from pakistan---.

Righht now---the u s is stuck between a rock and a hard place---it circle of influence is shrinking at an extremely rapid pace---just a few days ago after losing tunisia---it lost egypt---a major major player in the middle east---yemen---and libya and now in bahrain there are issues---. They are ready to leave iraq---but then what is happening in pakistan is something totally diffetrent.

If they lose in pakistan and can't get the release of Davis---the game plan of the u s foreign services will change world wide. Every other place---they have gotten out wihtout even a slap on the wrist and now they are being brought down by a country like pakistan-----pakistan and pakistani courts are in the process of setting up a precedence and if it happens---things are going to change---for that reason Obama and his staff came out aswinging----I guess he misjudged the pakistani reaction----come hiondsight----he realizes now that quiet diplomacy would have done better in the first place----but damage is done---all these congressmen shouting about sanctions and stopping aid to pakistan---deja vu---. We have been there---now haven't we.

If pakistan has come this far---then I guess they can go the rest of the way----some drastic had to happen to give the character of the nation some strength---some backbone---.

I would say one thing for sure----Hamid Karzai is the biggest fan of pakistanis as of today----.

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## MastanKhan

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis was the victum of a failed robbery, of a crime. He did not go out to randomly get after anyone. Let's not post false statements to try to stir up hatred falsely.


 
Sir, 

I had hoped that you would get it by now---Davis is not in jail for what he committed---he is paying the price of all the innocent muslims killed by blackwater---air force pilots who bombed the wedding parties---air force pilots who just wanted to drop their bombs on a target---all the innocent killed by drone attacks---. All these atrocities that have been committed against the innocent---Davis is in jail for that.

This man is going to pay for someone's else's deeds. I mean to say---if it wasn't for that pent up anger----Davis would have been long gone----family would have settled for whatever and pakistanis would have praised him for doing what they could not do.


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## Dance

*Davis case: LHC orders arrest of accused in Ibad&#8217;s killing*

*LAHORE: The Lahore High Court (LHC) on Friday ordered provincial authorities to arrest the accused involved in the death of Ibadur Rehman, a citizen who was killed when a US consulate car sent to assist Raymond Davis knocked him down on January 27 in Lahore, DawnNews reported.*

Raymond Davis shot dead two Pakistani men at a busy traffic junction in the city. He said he shot the men in self-defence, fearing they were about to rob him. Soon after, Ibadur Rehman was run over by a vehicle from the US consulate in Lahore that was coming to Davis&#8217; assistance.

A petition in this regard was filed on Thursday by Ibadur Rehman&#8217;s brother Mohammad Aijazur Rehman.

Subsequently, on Friday, LHC Chief Justice Ejaz Ahmed Chaudhry directed the authorities to conclude the investigations on Ibad&#8217;s killing.

The court further directed the Punjab government to recover the car that knocked Ibad down and record the witnesses&#8217; statements.

Davis case: LHC orders arrest of accused in Ibad&#8217;s killing | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


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## MastanKhan

DV RULES said:


> Character of people in particular region can't be change and it remains same even after hundreds of years but a little/minor change, we have our own history & style of living and others have their own. you have to put them in their own places. Nobody has right to judge second nation, its totally unfair and without logic.
> 
> It is common practice that character of nation get change in different scenario over internal and external issues. Not only in Pakistan but almost in every country.
> Legal systems are designed according to constitution & base on ground facts, who will dig it but only as it requires. Other nations have also same problem but may be we could dig out better in their legal system then they will dig in our. Leave it just think a general phenomena that nobody can stop people to criticize. Let them criticize. We have to do what we want.
> No any law or constitution present in the world without defects or black holes. So which world and which nations?
> 
> Just open world crime statistics, evaluate where you got rank and what rank got about whom we are talking about.
> A domestic pistol is useless on border fight, so for border fight there is Machine gun.
> 
> Davis case can't link with internal legal situations.


 
Sir,

That is a blanket statement and is not true---I was a teenager when Ayub was in power----and I remember that pakistani were a men of different character----then I saw Bhutto come in power----I saw the integrity and the honor of the pakistani started to go side ways---previously the criminals were looked down upon and kept to themselevs----now with Bhutto the character of the nation was being torn apart----when Zia came to power---that disgusting man spread so much hatred amonsgt the pakistani masses that there is no going back---during that time Musharraf stopped the punishment for criminals---the whip lashing---Benazir---Nawaz---Benazir---Nawaz and co then tore up the rest of it----. The last bit of the character that we had remaining was ditched by Musharraf again by not pursuing the criminals and not providing justice to the weak and the poor.

Of them all---Musharraf was the weakest when it came to law and order situation---he was the general who had no ballz to provide justice---he was a good man otherwise---did lots of good stuff for the country---but he took the character part away---because he could not bear to see physical punishement endowed upn the criminals. This is the short version---we can go in detail.

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## AstanoshKhan



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## r3alist

Asim Aquil said:


> Senator John Kerry leaves Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> Obama should come down himself too, once he gets to talk to the hand too... Things in Pakistan will change for the good. The momentum is perfect to break free of the shackles America has tied us in.


 


charlietophits said:


> I don't think that raymond is a diplomat . And so what if he is?
> He was caught carrying weapons , a GPS satellite tracking device, pictures of Pakistani army sensitive installations, and other sensitive material? Why was he making phone calls to Waziristan on the Pak-Afghan border when he was in the most eastern city of Pakistan near the Pakistan-India border (as Lahore police discovered from his cell phone).
> 
> The above mentioned fact prove without a shadow of doubt that R. davis was actually a spy. Hence he should be tried as such too.
> No spy of any country can be allowed diplomatic immunity in any way at all.
> 
> Spies are usually executed, which should not be a problem in Raymond's case because he has already killed 2 persons and also used excessive force.
> One report says that he got out of the car and shot one of the men again too.
> 
> On the minimum raymond should get exactly what he dishes out.


 


VCheng said:


> Whatever happened to:
> 
> _ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat _
> 
> (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).
> 
> The prosecution builds the case to prove guilt. It is NOT the defendant who has to prove his/her innocence.


 
What is your problem, it is beyond a doubt that he pulled the trigger and killed two men. Already a critical fact of the case has been established.


The Americans are not even pursuing an angle of self defence, they are trying to get him off completely by saying he had diplomatic immunity. Nonetheless, your point makes no sense, if he was being tired then I believe the prosecution need to prove that it was cold blooded murder, and not self defence.

And when you look at how he went about a murder, and what was in his position then it looks clearly like cold blooded murder. 


Vcheng please remove your flag again thanks


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## Awesome

*Ok, this is probably the lowest the USG and Pakistan's federal government of America has stooped to in this whole case.*

You know those rumors of past robberies that American loyalists keep talking about as fact even though nothing has been seen or heard to prove that? They actually belong to one Umar (alias sunni), and private threats have been made against the families of the victims to accept blood money or else 5 dacoity cases would be filed against Faizan.

*Please help me dig up more information towards this development, this is yet another trick, that should be foiled like the failed attempts of granting Davis immunity.*

Punjab Police showing its teeth to victims of Raymond



> ISLAMABAD: A *powerful federal minister* with the help of some &#8216;famous&#8217; officers of the Punjab Police is pressuring the families of the victims of Raymond Davis to accept compensation money and forgive Raymond.
> 
> The powerful minister is now using his influence on two senior officers of the Punjab Police Service to use all means they can to persuade the families of Faizan and Faheem to enter into a settlement with Raymond Davis.
> 
> Credible sources in the federal government told The News that both the top police officials have* assured the minister that they will achieve the target very soon*. Brothers of deceased Faizan and Faheem have confirmed to the media that they are being offered *money and many other incentives* to enter into an agreement with the American killer.
> 
> According to Punjab Police officials *five different FIRs* of dacoity against one *Umar (Alias Sunni)* will be used to blackmail the family of Faizan *in a way that in fact this dacoit Umar was Faizan and was using the nick name of Umar*. It is already a known fact that *there were three cases of different quarrels and infighting against Faizan because of some old enmity in the family*.
> 
> However, according to sources the *Punjab Police, using its old tactics, has now extended the FIR record from infighting to dacoity* to put pressure on the family to accept the money or be ready to face the wrath of the Punjab Police.
> 
> A spokesman of the Punjab government while talking to The News said that if the Punjab government was provided with some solid evidence of involvement of these police officials immediate action will be initiated against them.
> 
> The spokesman said it is absolutely clear that even if these police officials were somehow found involved in this dirty game *they might be doing this in their individual capacity and Punjab Government and Punjab Police as an institution had nothing to do with this. *
> 
> *IG Punjab Javed Iqbal was not ready to speak on the issue and the spokesman of the Punjab Police Naeem Akram Bharoka was said to be ill and could no speak. DPR Punjab Police Ms Nabila also was not ready to talk on the issue. *
> 
> Credible sources told The News *the minister has the full backing of the prime minister and other important office holders*. Spokesman of the Prime Minister, Shabbir Anwar, when approached by The News, however, said he could confirm that the prime minister has not asked any one to pressure the families to accept US money.
> 
> &#8220;In his speeches Prime Minister Gilani has only mentioned it as an option, that accepting money (diyat) is an Islamic way so it could also be adopted. But the PM never asked any one to pressure the families into accepting it,&#8221; said Shabbir Anwar.

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## iPhone

I think some people here are wrongfully twisting facts and jumping to conclusion without any proof or facts.

First one being: the victims were robbers and it was a robbery attempt. As far as I know nothing has been made clear and official about the victims criminal background, if any. If it was indicated as so in the priminalry police report, though I don't know when, then it was just that, a priminalry report which can be amended with more facts. Quiet common in police work. And let's assume they were criminals and the police is covering it up, then that is a very clossal accusation in a case of this sort. The police simply can't expunge criminal records of people, that too of armed robbers, as the records, courts findings, indictments and convictions can be found in various govt offices, court and jail houses etc. 

If they were robbers, you'll know in court, no one can cover that up. Defense will flaunt that in the courtroom, touting it was a robbery case. But coming to that conclusion on your own is unfair.

If the victims were criminals, that would certainly help Davis' case. What doesn't help him is carrying illegal weapons and his presence in that area and what diplomatic duties he was performing there?


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## Awesome

A well respected figure in Pakistani journalism for his blunt words, leaves the entire murkiness of the matter naked and exposed, that is how the American loyalists stand and are now grasping at straws covering their privates:

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## Leviza

how can you assume that they were robbers ?????? 
even the investigations shows us that they were not robbers.....


even if they are robbers (everyone doubts that) Davis still had no right to kill them.,..... if you are in NY next time if someone try to rob you please kill that person ...... how much you people can go down....... he killed 2 people 

you didnt said anything about the 3rd person WHY? coz he was not robber??? killed by US car come on say something about this .... if you have any grounds???? maybe you will come up with as it was accident on the road...but Mr. they were coming to rescue this person who killed you people in day light and they were near by as well and part of that gang killers...

i want them all to be hanged ASAP...justice need to done now..,


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## rohailmalhi

CIA will do wwhatever it take to free there man they will turn no stone unturn and finally they will be sucessful .I know that coz most of the people in our government and bureaucracy are american pupets , they just love to lick there masters boots ,some low life creeps .
If we really need to show this world that we have some self respect its the time we show them .
May Allah help us all in knowing our very own self respect .May Allah protect my Pakistan and its people from these blood suckers.


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## Irfan Baloch

do read the whole Q & A... I liked it because it didnt have the American rhetoric of Diplomatic immunity & Pakistani emotions

BBC News - Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions




> *What about the second car and its victim?*
> 
> A side event to the main drama concerning Mr Davis was the fact a third man was also killed during the incident. He was an innocent bystander run over by a US embassy vehicle, which was initially said to have arrived to rescue Mr Davis. The fact that an embassy vehicle was able to get to the spot so quickly was a source of astonishment to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the geography of Lahore. Given the incident was over within minutes, it seems incredible that anyone could negotiate the 12km (7.4-mile) 40-minute drive in peak traffic in less than five minutes. But subsequent investigations have now shown that the second car - a Toyota Landcruiser - was with Mr Davis at the time of the incident. In fact, according to eyewitnesses, Mr Davis was leading and clearing the way for the Toyota when the incident took place. In the light of what happened afterwards, it seems Mr Davis was in "protective mode" and opened fire to "secure" whoever or whatever was in the Toyota - the interior of this vehicle was not visible as its windows were tinted. It is evident in local TV footage that the second vehicle is going away from Mr Davis at the time of the incident. As it disappears into the dust, Mr Davis calmly pulls over and gives himself up. Pakistani authorities have asked for the Landcruiser and its driver to be handed over - a request with which the US has yet to comply.




above is the most interesting bit.. Raymond Case seems to be a smoke screen.. he was protecting the contents and people in the land cruiser that was there all the time with him.. as BBC notes.. its impossible to reach him in 5 mins of his call in the Lahore trafic...


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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> do read the whole Q & A... I liked it because it didnt have the American rhetoric of Diplomatic immunity & Pakistani emotions
> 
> BBC News - Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> above is the most interesting bit.. Raymond Case seems to be a smoke screen.. he was protecting the contents and people in the land cruiser that was there all the time with him.. as BBC notes.. its impossible to reach him in 5 mins of his call in the Lahore trafic...



IB: Sir, RD's case may very well have many layers of complexity, but the boundaries of the issues have already been carefully and closely defined, and no further digging up would benefit anybody. You may of course disagree with me here, but I am sure you will understand why I say this.

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## Abu Basit

*Stratfor warns of widespread mob violence in Pakistan*

News Desk
Friday, February 18, 2011

WASHINGTON: US-based Global Intelligence Forecast Organisation, Stratfor, has revealed that American diplomatic facilities and business interests in Pakistan were almost certainly reviewing their contingency plans right now and planning for the worst-case scenario anticipating widespread disturbances because of the murders committed by Raymond Davis who, it said, did not enjoy diplomatic immunity.

Stratfor revealed that as a contract employee assigned to the US Consulate in Lahore, Davis was likely not on the diplomatic list and probably did not enjoy full diplomatic immunity.

In a detailed report by Scott Stewart, Stratfor said the case could have larger consequences for Davis and for American diplomatic facilities and commercial interests in Pakistan. There is a very real possibility that Davis release could spark mob violence in Pakistan (and specifically Lahore). Even if the Pakistani government does try to defuse the situation, there are other parties who will attempt to stir up violence. Due to the widespread discontent over the issue of US security contractors in Pakistan, if protests do follow the release of Davis, they can be expected to be similar to the protests that followed Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) [sacrilegious] cartoon case, i.e., they will cut across ethnic and sectarian lines and present a widespread threat.

He was probably considered a member of the administrative or technical staff. Protecting himself during a robbery attempt would not be considered part of his official function in the country, and therefore his actions that day would not be covered under functional immunity.

At the time of the shooting, of course, Davis would not have had time to leisurely ponder the potential legal quagmire. He saw a threat and reacted to it.

Indeed, on Feb 15, US Senator John Kerry flew to Islamabad in a bid to seek Davis release. However, in spite of American efforts and international convention, Davis case is complicated greatly by the fact that he was working in Pakistan and by the current state of US-Pakistani relations.

Like Iraq, Pakistan is a country that has seen considerable controversy over American security contractors over the past several years. The government of Pakistan has gone after security contractor companies like DynCorp and its Pakistani affiliate InterRisk and Xe (formerly known as Blackwater), which has become the Pakistani version of the bogeyman. In addition to the clandestine security and intelligence work the company was conducting in Pakistan, in 2009 the Taliban even began to blame Xe for suicide bombing attacks that killed civilians. The end result is that American security contractors have become extremely unpopular in Pakistan. They are viewed not only as an affront to Pakistani sovereignty but also as trigger-happy killers. And this is the environment in which the Davis shooting occurred.

The report warns that if the protesters are able to set fire to the building (where Davis has been lodged), as happened at the US Embassy in Islamabad in 1979, a safe-haven can become a death trap, especially if the mob can take control of the secondary escape hatch as it did in that incident, trapping the Americans inside the safe-haven.

Once a mob attacks, there often is little that can be done - especially if the host government either cannot or will not take action to protect the facility being attacked. At that point, the focus should be on preventing injuries and saving lives - without regard to the physical property. In most cases, when a mob attacks a multinational corporation, it is attacking a symbolic target.

US diplomatic facilities and business interests in Pakistan are almost certainly reviewing their contingency plans right now and planning for the worst-case scenario. During such times, vigilance and preparation are vital, as is a constant flow of updated intelligence pertaining to potential demonstrations. Such intelligence can provide time for an evacuation or allow other proactive security measures to be taken. With the current tension between Pakistan and the United States, there might not be much help coming when the next wave of unrest erupts, so keeping ahead of potential protests is critically important, Stratfor concluded.

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## DV RULES

In this week Australian FO went to close its consulates in Lahore & Karachi and advised Australian citizens to respect Pakistan's law & order, moreover advised not to photograph important sensitive buildings.

So there is no any kind of advice to its citizens by US government which shows their behavior to Pakistan.

What respect they are looking for in Pakistan if they didn't respect rules & regulations of Pakistan?


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## ashok321

*Spy Feud Hampers Antiterror Efforts*

Ties between U.S. and Pakistani intelligence agencies have deteriorated sharply in recent months, compromising cooperation on a range of critical counter-terrorism efforts, including U.S. drone strikes targeting top militant leaders, current and former officials say.

Some U.S. officials describe relations between the two spy agencies as the worst since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. One senior official said the tensions have cost the U.S. the chance to strike at some senior terrorists in the region.

The state of relations, while never perfect, is now alarming counter-terrorism and military officials, who say close cooperation between the Central Intelligence Agency and Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence is essential to the campaign against al Qaeda and the war against the Taliban and its allies in Afghanistan.

Behind the falling out is a series of controversial incidents starting late last year, which prompted tit-for-tat accusations that burst into the open with the December outing of the CIA's station chief in Islamabad.

More recently, tensions have risen to new highs over Pakistan's detention of former Special Forces soldier Raymond Davis, a U.S. government contractor in the city of Lahore, for killing two Pakistanis in disputed circumstances. A Pakistani court Thursday ruled to delay by three weeks a hearing on whether Mr. Davis is covered by diplomatic immunity.

Earlier this week, President Barack Obama urged Pakistan to honor a 1961 treaty on diplomatic immunity to which both Pakistan and the U.S are signatories. Pakistan's central government faces public pressure from Islamist and student groups not to release Mr. Davis, who shot dead the two men on Jan. 27 in the center of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. Mr. Davis has said the men were trying to rob him at gunpoint.

Faced with pointed questions from lawmakers about strained ties with Pakistan, CIA Director Leon Panetta this week acknowledged relations between intelligence agencies were "one of the most complicated" he's ever seen. While the ISI continues to help the U.S. target al Qaeda leaders in the tribal areas, Mr. Panetta said its policies in other areas are in direct conflict with the U.S., stoking frequent tensions.

One U.S. official briefed on the matter, defending the agency's handling of the ties, acknowledged that relations were in a "trough at the moment," but rejected suggestions they were at their worst since 9/11. He said the disagreements stem not from a lack of cooperation "but because the Pakistanis are pulling stunts that just don't make any sense."

The CIA has long used intelligence from the ISI to help identify targets for drone strikes in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. Officials on both sides say the CIA now operates largely autonomously, especially since the U.S. has been concentrating its fire on the Haqqani militant network in the North Waziristan region.

U.S. officials say the ISI no longer provides the CIA with targeting information in most cases. A senior Pakistani official said of the CIA: "They don't ask us before they fire their missiles."

The ISI has long nurtured ties with the Haqqanis, which it sees as a strategic asset that can help Islamabad fend off Indian influences in neighboring Afghanistan, especially as U.S. forces begin pulling out in July. Washington, in contrast, sees the Haqqanis, who have been responsible for spectacular attacks in Kabul, as the biggest single threat to Western and Afghan forces, particularly in eastern Afghanistan. The group has emerged as one of the main targets of the drone strikes over the past year.

"The [ISI has] no intention of helping the United States degrade the Haqqani network," a U.S. official said.

The CIA hasn't conducted any drone strikes in the tribal areas of Pakistan since Jan. 23, one of the longest known periods without a strike since the beginning of the Obama administration. Drone strikes peaked in September with a record 22 attacks. They've been falling since then to a low of nine in January.

U.S. intelligence officials attribute the recent drop off in the number of strikes to bad winter weather. Other officials and experts say weather may well be a factor, but that the sharp drop in strikes also suggests that the CIA may be having trouble pinpointing new Haqqani targets, either because militants have gone deeper into hiding or have moved to new areas, possibly with the help of ISI.

Two tribesmen in North Waziristan say the weather has been mixed, cloudy some days or sunny on others, since Jan. 24. They said aircraft they believe to be drones can be seen flying overhead on clearer days but there have been no strikes.

The Haqqani network has long used Miranshah in North Waziristan as its main base of operations in Pakistan. But U.S. officials and outside experts say there are signs the group may be moving to a neighboring tribal area known as Kurram, possibly with the help of ISI agents, making it harder for the CIA to find targets to strike in North Waziristan.

Jeff Dressler, an expert on the Haqqani network with the Institute for the Study of War who frequently briefs U.S. military leaders, said the movement into Kurram would more than double the size of the group's safe haven in Pakistan and provide its fighters, which are aligned with al Qaeda and the Taliban, with easier access to the greater Kabul area, approximately 60 miles away, to carry out attacks.

U.S. officials suspect the ISI has at a minimum tracked the militants' movements, but the Pakistani government hasn't shared that intelligence with the CIA. "No one can move out of Miranshah without someone in the Pakistani government knowing about it, especially the bigger fish," a U.S. official said.

The problems between the CIA and ISI stem from a number of factors, including Pakistani anger over public comments by U.S. officials that Pakistan isn't doing enough to combat militancy, and Pakistani concerns that the CIA is building up its own spy network as an end run around the ISI. U.S. officials, in turn, blamed ISI for leaking the identity of the CIA's station chief.

Meetings between ISI and CIA officials, formerly held every 10 days or so, have become less frequent, a senior ISI official said. A U.S. official said contacts continued but offered few details.

Pakistan last year also quietly shut down at least two so-called fusion centers that brought together U.S. and Pakistani military intelligence officials.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D., Calif.), chairman of the Intelligence Committee, said she now sees the CIA-ISI relationship as "something less than wholehearted partnership" because the ISI is "walking both sides of the street."


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## American Eagle

It never ceases to amaze me the fake sinister plots that some "invent" in Pakistan. There are of course trouble making Taliban supporters on this site and they are most likely the root cause of these wild west stories, which develop when the hard facts...that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity...are well known and vouched for by the person of the President of the United States himself on live TV earlier this week.

Avoidance of the criminal history of the two robbers is impossible, as was clear from the outset when the first robbed two Pakitani gentlemen whose cell phones and cash were recovered after their failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis.

Perhaps it is time to shut this Thread down since PDF is a military forum, not a place for comic book made up spy stories?

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## Leviza

American Eagle said:


> It never ceases to amaze me the fake sinister plots that some "invent" in Pakistan. There are of course trouble making Taliban supporters on this site and they are most likely the root cause of these wild west stories, which develop when the hard facts...that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity...are well known and vouched for by the person of the President of the United States himself on live TV earlier this week.
> 
> Avoidance of the criminal history of the two robbers is impossible, as was clear from the outset when the first robbed two Pakitani gentlemen whose cell phones and cash were recovered after their failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis.
> 
> Perhaps it is time to shut this Thread down since PDF is a military forum, not a place for comic book made up spy stories?


 
How many time do i tell you that anything which goes against USA doest mean that its by Taliban you people need to fix your brains out first  even blaming that Talibans are on this site too nice jokes...

*FACT is Mr davis is not a diplomat and there is no immunity​* ... even if Obama start saying its night in day then only you are going to trust him. 

*immunity is not given what USA think or in what context he was in Pakistan ...immunity is only given if Pakistan's Fo have given out such documents and treated him as US Diplomat ...... i hope you got the point now 
*

*BEST SOLUTION IS USA NEED TO TAKE OFF ALL EXTRA PEOPLE OUT OF PAKISTAN AND WORK WITH PAKISTAN TO SOLVE THE AFGHANISTAN ISSUES OTHERWISE USA WILL NOT GET OUT OF THIS .......
*

now don't come back to me crying like baby for 9/11 ....we have seen bigger 9/11s in this WOT...

no one have asked to open 'Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story ' and give your comments.....

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## CardSharp

American Eagle said:


> It never ceases to amaze me the fake sinister plots that some "invent" in Pakistan. There are of course trouble making Taliban supporters on this site and they are most likely the root cause of these wild west stories, which develop when the hard facts...that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity...are well known and vouched for by the person of the President of the United States himself on live TV earlier this week.
> 
> Avoidance of the criminal history of the two robbers is impossible, as was clear from the outset when the first robbed two Pakitani gentlemen whose cell phones and cash were recovered after their failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis.
> 
> Perhaps it is time to shut this Thread down since PDF is a military forum, not a place for comic book made up spy stories?


 
Conspiracy theory aside, there are still major unknowns about the case as raised many major newspapers. What makes me a little curious is how you can state your case with such certainty.


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## iPhone

American Eagle said:


> It never ceases to amaze me the fake
> 
> Avoidance of the criminal history of the two robbers is impossible, as was clear from the outset when the first robbed two Pakitani gentlemen whose cell phones and cash were recovered after their failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis



Where is this information coming from?


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## Irfan Baloch

American Eagle said:


> It never ceases to amaze me the fake sinister plots that some "invent" in Pakistan. There are of course trouble making Taliban supporters on this site and they are most likely the root cause of these wild west stories, which develop when the hard facts...that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity...are well known and vouched for by the person of the President of the United States himself on live TV earlier this week.
> 
> Avoidance of the criminal history of the two robbers is impossible, as was clear from the outset when the first robbed two Pakitani gentlemen whose cell phones and cash were recovered after their failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis.
> 
> Perhaps it is time to shut this Thread down since PDF is a military forum, not a place for comic book made up spy stories?


 
Well conduct of the US embassy was less than impressive specially regarding the &#8220;backup&#8221; land cruiser that &#8220;reached&#8221; the scene in minutes and after running over few people and crushing one to death it absconded..

Just like you have conveniently ignored my questions about that 3rd death of a bystander. The US embassy has so far failed to even show any regret or explain why it is not cooperating with the authorities. Mrs Clinton was all pumped up and emotional damning the traffic fine dodging diplomats. But here we have a hit and run incident that has resulted in one fatality and 3 people injured.

All the stories and fantasies (as you put it) that are being cooked up by the people and the media are a reflection of a public mood that wont be any different had it happened in Manhattan at the hands of a Pakistani diplomat. . Then the FOX News would have been leading the stories and heating up the public emotions with comments like. 
*&#8220;ruthless ISI operative shows no value to live in a civilized society&#8230; , look this is how they repay us&#8230; American taxpayer pays them to survive and they are all out disrespecting our laws & our &#8220;freedom&#8221;&#8230;.
*
This debate will go on as long as we don&#8217;t get the end of it. It is highly likely that Davis will fly back to US eventually but I don&#8217;t think it was a simple matter of innocent self defence. Pakistanis have held their ground even after the visits of your heavies from government and CIA etc. there is definitely something more than meets the eye (I hate speculating and hypothesising but cant help it here now).

Both American & British operatives were caught red handed by Iraqis who instigated the sectarian wars and almost broke Iraq on sectarian bases due to the resulting sectarian wars. it hurt me to say but sometimes I do wonder about the sophistication of some terrorist attacks and the endless funds of the Pakistani Taliban. and yes I see the similarities in the pattern in the workings of these &#8220;contractors&#8221; and &#8220;technical advisors&#8221; found to be a common factor in both Iraq and Pakistan.

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## Irfan Baloch

iPhone said:


> Where is this information coming from?


 
that information came from an unkown "citizen" who filed an FIR claiming against those 2 people that Mr Davis had target practice on.


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## American Eagle

Recovery of specifically two cell phones and cash just stolen from two Pakistani gentlemen same day as the then failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis ,with a formal police complaint from the two robbed Pakistanis pin points factually identifying the robbers as Shamshad and Haider the same two who then failed in their robbery attempt on Davis, honestly and accurately depics both Faheem Shamshad and Faizam Haider as public crooks, robbers. Further, the police stated that they we being sought on other prior robberies.

All this made up mumbo jumbo is immature comic books stuff to try to deflect hard public visibility of the history of these two robbers who failed in their armed stick up of Mr. Davis, who is the victum of their failed robbery.

Some in recent posts here admit that these two robbers had a longer crimeinal history in court, in jail, in short, they both had a "record" as criminals.

The way to play down their awful life and record of crime is to recognize that Mr. Davis has Diplomtic Immunity and once he is removed back to the US then the publicizing of the two crooks history of crime will subside and the familes of these two can find peace to no longer be in the public eye.


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## iPhone

American Eagle said:


> Recovery of specifically two cell phones and stone cash just stolen from two Pakistani gentlemen same day as failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis ,with a formal police complaint from the two robbed Pakistanis pin points factually, without made up mumbo jumbo excuses, that the term robbers and crooks honestly and accurately depics both Faheem Shamshad and Faizam Haider as public crooks, robbers. Further, the police stated that they we being sought on other prior robberies.
> 
> Some in these most recent posts admit that these two robbers had a longer crime history in court, in jail, in short, they both had a "record" as criminals.
> 
> The way to play down their awful life and record of crime is to recognize that Mr. Davis has Diplomtic Immunity and once he is removed back to the US then the publicizing of the two crooks history of crime will subside and the familes of these two can find peace to no longer be in the public eye.


 
look, once again there is a lot of hearsay information in this which isn't admissable in the courts. Either they were robbers or they weren't, if there were and tried to hold up Davis then he has a very strong case. Also I mentioned earlier that it's impossible for police to cover up their criminal backgrounds if the victims were robbers, there record would be in almost every court and jailhouse.


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## American Eagle

Read the facts on this long post...the two robbed Pakistani men are named by the press, even their photos are on this site. Why do the young posters on this site keep telling so many untruths? In today's computerized world no one can cover up published facts that these two were estasblished robbers with criminal court and jail records.

Such false statements are both shameful and suggest more attempts to aid and abet the terrorists who would be in league with robbers to raise money from robberies to fund their terrorists acts which continue in the Lahore area murdering many innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, especailly in recent days at minority sect Muslim shrines where people had peacefully gatherer for religious services.


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## iPhone

Irfan Baloch said:


> that information came from an unkown "citizen" who filed an FIR claiming against those 2 people that Mr Davis had target practice on.


 
if that's where this information is coming from then it's no good. It isn't admisable. A criminal background means arrest record with the police, indictment and conviction records with courts, and sentenced served in jails. No agency can expunge this amount of details to cover up something, they would leave too many trails.

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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> It never ceases to amaze me the fake sinister plots that some "invent" in Pakistan. There are of course trouble making Taliban supporters on this site and they are most likely the root cause of these wild west stories



You need to go give George W. Bush a hug for resorting to petty scaremongering of terrorists... Non-terrorists can disagree and oppose Americans as well... In Pakistan its high time to fight Taliban and Americans both, both are using Pakistan as a playground to settle their fight.

Now that investigation is opening up the lies around the cellphone robbery (where are the two gentlemen who got robbed?). It even turns out the cases belonging to another individual are being passed off as "Faizan's case".

Made up? I've posted a link with every single post of mine, its more than what the Americans and their loyalists can say about their debating skills.

It's the disappearing act of the vanishing WMDs again, say anything and then slap the word terrorist and scare the world into believing your weak theories.

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## iPhone

American Eagle said:


> Read the facts on this long post...the two robbed Pakistani men are named by the press, even their photos are on this site. Why do the young posters on this site keep telling so many untruths? In today's computerized world no one can cover up published facts that these two were estasblished robbers with criminal court and jail records.
> 
> Such false statements are both shameful and suggest more attempts to aid and abet the terrorists who would be in league with robbers to raise money from robberies to fund their terrorists acts which continue in the Lahore area murdering many innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, especailly in recent days at minority sect Muslim shrines where people had peacefully gatherer for religious services.


 
how would the press know who is criminal and who isn't? where are they getting their information from? the police? then that means the data is available to public and the police can't cover it up, and they should've come out by now and released the criminals pedigree information. 

All I'm saying is, police is the authentic source in this, no newspaper or member on this forum (unless from lahore police) can tell if the victims were criminals. And I find it really hard to believe the police is hiding facts, because it's impossible to hide someone's criminal background, and in this case they are digging their grave if they are.


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## Leviza

American Eagle said:


> Recovery of specifically two cell phones and cash just stolen from two Pakistani gentlemen same day as the then failed stick up attempt on Mr. Davis ,with a formal police complaint from the two robbed Pakistanis pin points factually identifying the robbers as Shamshad and Haider the same two who then failed in their robbery attempt on Davis, honestly and accurately depics both Faheem Shamshad and Faizam Haider as public crooks, robbers. Further, the police stated that they we being sought on other prior robberies.
> 
> All this made up mumbo jumbo is immature comic books stuff to try to deflect hard public visibility of the history of these two robbers who failed in their armed stick up of Mr. Davis, who is the victum of their failed robbery.
> 
> Some in recent posts here admit that these two robbers had a longer crimeinal history in court, in jail, in short, they both had a "record" as criminals.
> 
> The way to play down their awful life and record of crime is to recognize that Mr. Davis has Diplomtic Immunity and once he is removed back to the US then the publicizing of the two crooks history of crime will subside and the familes of these two can find peace to no longer be in the public eye.


 
what a rubbish comment ..... 

CIA personal is caught red handed with spying equipments..... Pakistani FO never issue any diplomatic status to him and still you and your media saying same thing again and again and totally forgetting to say anything about that 2nd US LC CAR which killed 1 person and injured 3 others....


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## Awesome

Pak Govt freeing Davis may be "last straw that breaks camel's back": Hilaly



> If the Pakistan Government hands over double murder-accused American official Raymond Davis to the United States without sufficiently preparing public opinion on this sensitive issue, it may face a major backlash, eventually leading to its downfall, retired Pakistan envoy Zafar Hilaly has said.
> 
> "It's become such a huge [issue]," The Christian Science Monitor quoted Hilaly, as saying.
> 
> "There's a feeling, not without reason, that it might be the last straw that breaks the camel's back," he added.
> 
> Davis was arrested last month for shooting two men on motorcycle from his car in a lower-middle class area of Lahore.
> 
> The incident sparked widespread protests and has played into the hands of conservative religious parties, with many Pakistanis believing Davis to be a US spy. The matter has dominated headlines, which have focused on the fact that Davis had surveillance equipment and an unlicensed semiautomatic weapon on him at the time of his arrest.
> 
> The Pakistan Government, wary of popular backlash in the country, has maintained that the court should be allowed to carry out its own process, while the US has insisted upon Davis's return on the grounds on diplomatic immunity.
> 
> However, Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani candidly admitted this week that his government was "just caught between the devil and the deep sea" on Davis' detention issue.
> 
> "We are facing difficult decisions. There is a political price. If we take it then the people do not support and if we don't do it the world does not support," Gilani told Ulema and Mashaikh, who had gathered at the National Seerat Conference from across the country.We are just caught between the devil and the deep sea. This needs wisdom. We will do whatever is in the interest of the country and the nation," he added. (ANI)


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## American Eagle

The due process of law entails the hard fact that Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. Period.

Beyond that a legal process exists in the US whereby the US Dept. of Justice that will determine what the facts of the incident were and are, objectively, honestly, and fairly, without cries of "hang the bum" from overseas Pakistanis who are not even living and working inside Pakistan to help build the currently weak democracy there into a strong, robust democracy.

Therefore, politely but strongly meant, some of you who continue to jump on the theme of bash Mr. Davis are out of sequence in your level of understanding and are very premature. 

Mr. Davis has to first be removed from Pakistan via Diplomatic Immunity, as vouched for by none other than President Obama on live TV interview this week now ending here in the US.

Diplomatic Immunity has nothing to do with your misconcepts or self version of how you would wish Mr. Davis to be handled and treated.


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## Leviza

American Eagle said:


> The due process of law entails the hard fact that Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. Period.
> 
> Beyond that a legal process exists in the US whereby the US Dept. of Justice that will determine what the facts of the incident were and are, objectively, honestly, and fairly, without cries of "hang the bum" from overseas Pakistanis who are not even living and working inside Pakistan to help build the currently weak democracy there into a strong, robust democracy.
> 
> Therefore, politely but strongly meant, some of you who continue to jump on the theme of bash Mr. Davis are out of sequence in your level of understanding and are very premature.
> 
> Mr. Davis has to first be removed from Pakistan via Diplomatic Immunity, as vouched for by none other than President Obama on live TV interview this week now ending here in the US.
> 
> Diplomatic Immunity has nothing to do with your misconcepts or self version of how you would wish Mr. Davis to be handled and treated.


 
*MR Davis is a killer and there is no immunity ..............
*

*Pakistani FO never issued any such documents to give this killer a diplomatic status *

*After Dr. Afia case no one in Pakistan trust US Dept. of Justice
*


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## Irfan Baloch

American Eagle said:


> The due process of law entails the hard fact that Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. Period.
> 
> .


 
so what about the killer driver who ran away? does dplomatic immunity extends to crushing people to death and then running away from the scene too?


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> Mr. Davis has to first be removed from Pakistan via Diplomatic Immunity, as vouched for by none other than President Obama on live TV interview this week now ending here in the US.


 
Obama's opinions means squat to us. American justice system means squat to us.

This has now taken the shape of a people's movement. Perhaps now you'll only see Taliban as the people of Pakistan, but that won't be anything new, in fact such stereotyping is quite American.

We have actual evidence of guilt, we have no presentation of immunity papers from the Pakistani FO, we have only demanded he go to trial, and expose all these hair brained theories of ours as false and uphold the truth, justice and American way!

If your man is immune, then present those papers. If your man is innocent then fight in court. There is no door #3 where you can say "We say he is immune and he's innocent and he won't go to court".

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## Pak_Sher

American Eagle said:


> The due process of law entails the hard fact that Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. Period.
> 
> Beyond that a legal process exists in the US whereby the US Dept. of Justice that will determine what the facts of the incident were and are, objectively, honestly, and fairly, without cries of "hang the bum" from overseas Pakistanis who are not even living and working inside Pakistan to help build the currently weak democracy there into a strong, robust democracy.
> 
> Therefore, politely but strongly meant, some of you who continue to jump on the theme of bash Mr. Davis are out of sequence in your level of understanding and are very premature.
> 
> Mr. Davis has to first be removed from Pakistan via Diplomatic Immunity, as vouched for by none other than President Obama on live TV interview this week now ending here in the US.
> 
> Diplomatic Immunity has nothing to do with your misconcepts or self version of how you would wish Mr. Davis to be handled and treated.


 
The covert operation by CIA and Blackwater under the Vienna Conevtion have just ended, period. Enough abuse by the US of the diplomatic immunity, which has been revoked.

Americans carried Gitmo prisoners and used UK Airports not telling them.

Argentina Seizes Contents of U.S. Air Force Plane
Argentina Seizes Contents of U.S. Air Force Plane | The Weekly Standard

Enough of this US lawlessness and abuse of diplomatic immuinity. Davis a trained special forces guy and he should pay for his actions.


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## The HBS Guy

Asim Aquil said:


> Obama's opinions means squat to us. American justice system means squat to us.
> 
> This has now taken the shape of a people's movement. Perhaps now you'll only see Taliban as the people of Pakistan, but that won't be anything new, in fact such stereotyping is quite American.
> 
> We have actual evidence of guilt, we have no presentation of immunity papers from the Pakistani FO, we have only demanded he go to trial, and expose all these hair brained theories of ours as false and uphold the truth, justice and American way!
> 
> If your man is immune, then present those papers. If your man is innocent then fight in court. There is no door #3 where you can say "We say he is immune and he's innocent and he won't go to court".


 
Pakistan has ratified the Vienna Convention in 1972. 

In other words, the Vienna Convention IS Pakistan's law too.

BTW, Obama's laws may not mean much to you but his $$$ do and you know that very well.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Obama's opinions means squat to us. American justice system means squat to us.
> 
> This has now taken the shape of a people's movement. Perhaps now you'll only see Taliban as the people of Pakistan, but that won't be anything new, in fact such stereotyping is quite American.
> 
> We have actual evidence of guilt, we have no presentation of immunity papers from the Pakistani FO, we have only demanded he go to trial, and expose all these hair brained theories of ours as false and uphold the truth, justice and American way!
> 
> If your man is immune, then present those papers. If your man is innocent then fight in court. There is no door #3 where you can say "We say he is immune and he's innocent and he won't go to court".



All I can say here, once again, is that the two week delay is a good thing to allow cooler minds to prevail!


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## Pak_Sher

The HBS Guy said:


> Pakistan has ratified the Vienna Convention in 1972.
> 
> In other words, the Vienna Convention IS Pakistan's law too.


 
See post # 3570. We are using Vienna Convention as toilet paper for people who think Pakistan as trash.

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## iPhone

American Eagle said:


> The due process of law entails the hard fact that Raymond Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. Period.
> 
> Beyond that a legal process exists in the US whereby the US Dept. of Justice that will determine what the facts of the incident were and are, objectively, honestly, and fairly, without cries of "hang the bum" from overseas Pakistanis who are not even living and working inside Pakistan to help build the currently weak democracy there into a strong, robust democracy.
> 
> Therefore, politely but strongly meant, some of you who continue to jump on the theme of bash Mr. Davis are out of sequence in your level of understanding and are very premature.
> 
> Mr. Davis has to first be removed from Pakistan via Diplomatic Immunity, as vouched for by none other than President Obama on live TV interview this week now ending here in the US.
> 
> Diplomatic Immunity has nothing to do with your misconcepts or self version of how you would wish Mr. Davis to be handled and treated.


 
that's all fine and dandy but what about the victims being robbers part?? honestly, if you went into a courtroom and you told the judge this guy is a robber or a burglar because it was in the newspaper the judge is gonna look at you like you have 9 heads. I'm not trying to be a smart*** here but let me tell you a little about the law, what's reported in press conferences, newspapers or online forum boards has no bearings whatsoever in the courtroom. Police does investigation and share findings with the prosecutors and defense lawyers, who in return do their due deligence to see if the investigation was done properly and the case goes to court. 
Trust me, if these guys were indeed robbers, there is no way the police or anyone can cover it up because the criminal records are public. Somebody would've made their criminal background public by now, if they had any, it doesn't take that long.

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## Awesome

The HBS Guy said:


> Pakistan has ratified the Vienna Convention in 1972.
> 
> In other words, the Vienna Convention IS Pakistan's law too.


 
And read the Pakistani law that states that the determination of immunity rests with the federal government. The Federal government has said it will present the case and have it decided upon by the Judicial system as per Pakistani law.

So... so what? The entire debate started off when the Americans and the American loyalists tried to circumvent the Pakistani law.

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## The HBS Guy

Asim Aquil said:


> And read the Pakistani law that states that the determination of immunity rests with the federal government. The Federal government has said it will present the case and have it decided upon by the Judicial system as per Pakistani law.
> 
> So... so what? The entire debate started off when the Americans and the American loyalists tried to circumvent the Pakistani law.


 
You're not getting it. The matter of diplomatic immunity doesn't rest with the courts. It rests with the FO. 

Why is taking your FO so long to confirm or deny such a simple matter as diplomatic status of a person? 

You're trying to hide the failures of YOUR foreign office.


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## Awesome

The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan judge orders arrest of U.S. car driver



> The arrest warrant could add to the tensions surrounding the case of the shooter, Raymond Allen Davis. The U.S. insists he was acting in self&#8212;defence against robbers and qualifies for diplomatic immunity because he worked for the embassy.
> 
> A judge on Friday ordered the arrest of the driver of a U.S. vehicle that struck and killed a Pakistani while rushing to help an American detained in a pair of fatal shootings, a lawyer for the victim&#8217;s family said.
> 
> The arrest warrant could add to the tensions surrounding the case of the shooter, Raymond Allen Davis. The U.S. insists he was acting in self&#8212;defence against robbers and qualifies for diplomatic immunity because he worked for the embassy.
> 
> The odds of Pakistani police detaining the people in the U.S. car are low. Authorities say they do not know who was in the vehicle, and the Americans have said little on the matter, other than admitting the car was driven by U.S. Embassy staff.
> 
> The judge&#8217;s order could be a means of pressuring the U.S. to produce the driver, who has not been identified. But it&#8217;s highly unlikely that any Americans involved in the traffic accident are still in Pakistan. Employees of the U.S. mission who get into trouble are typically on the first plane out of the country.
> 
> It&#8217;s also possible the driver was a Pakistani. U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale on Friday declined to comment on the order other than saying the vehicular incident &#8220;is under investigation.&#8221;
> 
> Lawyer Asad Manzoor Butt said the family of the struck bystander, Ibadur Rehman, filed a petition with the Lahore High Court seeking to bring attention to his death, which has received far less scrutiny than the deaths of the two men shot earlier January 27 in Lahore.
> 
> The court&#8217;s chief justice, Ijaz Chaudhry issued the arrest order, Mr. Butt said. On Thursday, the same court gave Pakistan&#8217;s government three more weeks to determine if Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity as America claims.
> 
> Government in a tough spot
> 
> The Pakistan government is in a tough spot. If it releases Mr. Davis, it risks angering violent elements in its population - including the Taliban, who have threatened to attack any official involved in letting Mr. Davis go. The ruling party also risks further alienating voters already unhappy with its performance.
> 
> But to keep Mr. Davis in prison is to anger the United States, which provides Pakistan with billions in aid but also needs its cooperation to take on militants who use its soil to plan attacks in Afghanistan and the West.
> 
> The U.S. has begun curbing diplomatic contacts and threatened to withhold aid if Mr. Davis is not freed, with President Barack Obama stressing the importance of upholding agreements covering diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Mr. Davis faces potential murder charges. He is in a Pakistani jail and is on a list barring him from leaving the country, officials said.
> 
> The U.S. says Mr. Davis is part of the embassy&#8217;s &#8220;administrative and technical staff.&#8221; That indicates he might have been a security official and helps explain his possession of a gun. Pakistanis have focused on him being an ex&#8212;Special Forces soldier who helps run an American &#8220;protective services&#8221; company.
> 
> The U.S. says he is an embassy employee but was on temporary duty at the consulate in Lahore. That has added to the confusion about his status since employees assigned to consulates do not always get the same level of diplomatic protection as those assigned to embassies.


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## Bang Galore

Irfan Baloch said:


> so what about the killer driver who ran away? does dplomatic immunity extends to crushing people to death and then running away from the scene too?


 
I wonder why more people aren't focused on that. Davis may or might not have a self defence explanation, the two guys killed may or may not be innocent but there is little doubt that the third person who was the victim of a car accident was innocent & the driver should at the very least be hauled up for that death. Absconding after a deadly hit & run is a serious offence which needs someone to be answerable for.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the Pakistani courts will determine whether this consultant/tech. advisor had immunity in the first place;


it would be prudent for the U.S. to extend the ''cooperation'' they initially assured to Pakistan. The fact of the matter is, 3 people are dead. Self-defence argument has already been ruled out --though the capable and applicable courts can confirm that, not members of PDF.

it's always good to practice what you preach; If there is a hit and run involving vehicular manslaughter in DC or Miami or anywhere else in the US --it is a felony. A serious crime. 

most likely, the operators of that vehicle have been priority rushed out of the country......flight from justice before he/they could even be remanded or questioned. 

the davis case has proven to be a mockery of justice; as every day passes, the U.S. is harming its relations with Pakistan --especially the common man Pakistani. 

and it's a shame, given our history since independence and given our partnership during the cold war. I'm not smiling gleefully, this incident is quite frustrating and quite saddening. 

I do trust our courts though. Quite amazing (amusing?) that Davis has access to a jail superintendant every time he throws a tantrum and uses curse words --as he gets his food and even mineral water (a commodity not afforded by many)









*Pearls before swine!! *

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## Awesome

The HBS Guy said:


> You're not getting it. The matter of diplomatic immunity doesn't rest with the courts. It rests with the FO.
> 
> Why is taking your FO so long to confirm or deny such a simple matter as diplomatic status of a person?
> 
> You're trying to hide the failures of YOUR foreign office.


 
The foreign office already determined and stated there is no immunity...

The only problem is US loyalists fired him from the position.

If you can understand urdu, he says it loud and clear






So really why are they taking so long? It takes time to fire one guy after he said so on TV and then they need time to create fake papers!

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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the Pakistani courts will determine whether this consultant/tech. advisor had immunity in the first place;


 
And that's where you break the law in the first place.

Diplomatic status is decided by the FO and not by the court. What's so difficult to understand here?


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## American Eagle

You are factually mistaken.

The claiming of Diplomatic Immunity is exactly why the process inside Pakistan is on hold. Pakistan knows what full diplomatic immunity means and President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton have made clear the US position which cannot be disallowed under the Vienna Convention and several Treaties involved with that topic, DI. Mr. Davis is covered by Diplomatic Immunity.

Overseas writers, and let's be clear, I am one, an American who both served in and was wounded in Pakistan in January 1965 at the time of an early Rann of Kutch dust up between Pakistan and India...all of us overseas writers are either following the International Rule of Law or defying it to ask for any other legal actions without first observing DI.

DI works well in that the US will investigate through the US Justice Dept. all matters involving the Davis issue and honest, not stacked justice will then be done, up or down.

Meanwhile,how is the Pakistani Army and Frontier Forcess battle in the Northern areas going to try to dislodge and defeat major headquarters of the Taliban?

What are the people of Lahore doing to help the hundreds of families of those blown to bits and others maimed for life by the terrorist bombings of late in the City of Lahore?

It may be more focused and helpful to address domestic terrorism than to try to blame the victum, Mr. Davis, over a failed stick up attempt by known robbers.

Have a good weekend.


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## The HBS Guy

Asim Aquil said:


> The foreign office already determined and stated there is no immunity...


 
Thid argument of yours has no locus standi. 

The individual in the video was not the foreign minister at the time he made the statement. If he so truly believed what he's saying now, he should have stated this during his tenure as the FM.

No use saying it now.

It's useless until the FO gives an official statement.

AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT

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## Abu Zolfiqar

The HBS Guy said:


> And that's where you break the law in the first place.
> 
> Diplomatic status is decided by the FO and not by the court. What's so difficult to understand here?


 
MoI in conjunction with FO would be answerable to said courts as well


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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> MoI in conjunction with FO would be answerable to said courts as well


 
Pakistani Courts are an internal matter of Pakistan. The matter of diplomatic immunity holds between two govt. and not between a court and a govt.


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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> MoI in conjunction with FO would be answerable to said courts as well




With all due respect, these are the same courts that started to look into missing persons cases, that led to CJ Iftikhar's dismissal and then his reinstatement, with nary a peep from him about it since then.

The real powers-that-be lie elsewhere Sir. All the courts in Pakistan will reliably toe the line when the time comes I am sure.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

American Eagle said:


> You are factually mistaken.
> 
> The claiming of Diplomatic Immunity is exactly whey the process inside Pakistan is on hold. Pakistan knows what full diplomatic immunity means and President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton have made clear the US position which is cannot be disallowed under the Vienna Convention and several Treaties involved with that topic, DI.
> 
> Overseas writers, and let's be clear, I am one, an American who both served in and was wounded in Pakistan in January 1965 at the time of an early Rann of Kutch dust up between Pakistan and India...all of us overseas writers are either following the International Rule of Law or defying it to ask for any other legal actions without first observing DI.
> 
> DI works well in that the US will investigate through the US Justice Dept. all matters involving the Davis issue and honest, not stacked justice will then be done, up or down.
> 
> Meanwhile,how is the Pakistani Army and Frontier Forcess battle in the Northern areas going to try to dislodge and defeat major headquarters of the Taliban?
> 
> What are the people of Lahore doing to help the hundreds of families of those blown to bits and others maimed for life by the terrorist bombings of late in the City of Lahore?
> 
> It may be more focused and helpful to address domestic terrorism than to try to blame the victum, Mr. Davis, over a failed stick up attempt by known robbers.
> 
> Have a good weekend.



there are threads for those other cancers and ills ongoing....please don't divert attention to other things not relevant here.

by the way, and i reiterate it again and again --- the courts will decide whether it was self-defence or not. It appears thus far that the ''self-defence'' argument is rubbished --but let's see.

if i am not mistaken, he was unauthorized to be carrying a weapon and he was driving a vehicle with fake registration --in fact he wasn't even authorized to be on the road where he was.

you as an American should be asking more questions about his activities than our courts or our people are, for your information.

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## Awesome

The HBS Guy said:


> Thid argument of yours has no locus standi.
> 
> The individual in the video was not the foreign minister at the time he made the statement. If he so truly believed what he's saying now, he should have stated this during his tenure as the FM.
> 
> No use saying it now.


 
Obviously he has witnesses in the FM that are corroborating his story even now. Namely Salman Bashir, the foreign secretary, who is also determined to stand his ground - who has said that the matter is sub-judice - in the courts.

Of course, it seems like Salman Bashir is the next target of American loyalists and will be fired from the ministry as well.

The job of a Foreign Minister is not to speak to the media on a sub-judice matter. But now that he has left the ministry he can expose the behind the scenes events.

This matter too should be decided in the courts, as this seems to be an unlawful termination.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Obviously he has witnesses in the FM that are corroborating his story even now. Namely Salman Bashir, the foreign secretary, who is also determined to stand his ground - who has said that the matter is sub-judice - in the courts.
> 
> Of course, it seems like Salman Bashir is the next target of American loyalists and will be fired from the ministry as well.
> 
> The job of a Foreign Minister is not to speak to the media on a sub-judice matter. But now that he has left the ministry he can expose the behind the scenes events.
> 
> This matter too should be decided in the courts, as this seems to be an unlawful termination.



The unlawful termination claim is a separate matter legally Sir.

All the witnesses and statements made after dismissal carry no legal weight. The OFFICIAL statement which will be introduced in court with the full authority of the Federal government is what will stand legally.

I don't know what that will be, even though I have an idea, but I am willing to wait until that OFFICIAL statement is submitted. It would be wise to consider doing the same.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

The HBS Guy said:


> Pakistani Courts are an internal matter of Pakistan. The matter of diplomatic immunity holds between two govt. and not between a court and a govt.


 
2 suspected crimes were committed within minutes of eachother; possible double-murder as well as hit and run involving manslaughter (among other charges)

yes, ''charges''

surely when Pakistan is given assurance that Davis will be tried in American court; when Pakistan is given assurance that the identity and whereabouts of the other driver will be ascertained so he can be brought to trial as well --then we can talk about it becoming an international matter

your logic applies to those with diplomatic immunity; thus far, it is to be determined whether the current suspect -a technical advisor/consultant (as he himself stated in the video)-- has immunity. 

That is, if it hasn't been determined already --i am not privvy to the details and therefore not in a position to make an authoritative conclusion. The courts are capable and will determine it as the proceedings are still underway.

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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> O
> The job of a Foreign Minister is not to speak to the media on a sub-judice matter. But now that he has left the ministry he can expose the behind the scenes events.
> *
> This matter too should be decided in the courts, as this seems to be an unlawful termination.*


 

Comes under Prime Ministerial prerogative, the courts have no locus standi in the matter.

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## Awesome

&#8216;Davis&#8217;: Will Salman Bashir be the next political victim of Hyperion affair | Rupee News



> Islamabad still hasn&#8217;t come to grips with the the first politcal casualty from the &#8220;Raymond Davis&#8221; Affair. Foreign Minister Mahmood Qureshi was fired for refusing to forge the Foreign Ministry records and retroactively placing the name of &#8220;Raymond Davis&#8221; on the list of US employees with diplomatic immunity.
> 
> The Minister of Communication Ms. Fauzia Wahab destroyed her credibility when she was repudiated by her own party.
> Many analysts think that the next political casualty from the drama in Mozung wil be Salman Bashir who has been supporting the position of FOrmer Foreign Minsiter Mahmood Qureshi.
> 
> Ambassador Munter called on Secretary Foreign Affairs Mr. Salman Bashir to push for Mr. &#8220;Davis&#8221;, but was politely refused by the seasoned diplomat.
> 
> According to media reports, the newly appointed American envoy had sought an early certification from the Foreign Office so that &#8220;Pakistan and United States could devote their time and energy to other vital issues&#8221;. Ambassador Munter reiterated that Raymond Davis enjoyed diplomatic immunity, requesting an immediate release under the Vienna Conventions. Per the government&#8217;s line, Bashir told the Ambassador that the matter is sub judice and could only be decided by the court of law. The Secretary Foreign Affairs reiterated that one man should not drive 60-year-old relations between the two key allies in war against terrorism.
> 
> Salman Bashir hoped that the US-Afghan-Pakistan would be rescheduled as soon as possible because this interaction was extremely important for peace and security in the region. Mr. Bashir also explained to the US envoy that the PPP Government was constrained and could not oblige the US even it it wanted to because of the severe reaction from the people. THe PPP fears that the government would fall if it acquiesced to the US pressure. Anti-American sentiments in the country are at fever pitch..
> 
> Washington has threatened Pakistan with a break in diplomatic ties to suspension of economic assistance to secure the release of Raymond Davis. Secretary of State Mrs Hillary Clinton had refused to meet Pakistan&#8217;s former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi in Munich, though she did meet with General Kayani. The Lahore Police on Friday rejected the claim of &#8220;Raymond Davis&#8221; that he killed two Pakistanis in self-defence. The court has sent the murderer on a two-week judicial remand.


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## The HBS Guy

Asim Aquil said:


> Obviously he has witnesses in the FM that are corroborating his story even now. Namely Salman Bashir, the foreign secretary, who is also determined to stand his ground - who has said that the matter is sub-judice - in the courts.
> 
> Of course, it seems like Salman Bashir is the next target of American loyalists and will be fired from the ministry as well.
> 
> The job of a Foreign Minister is not to speak to the media on a sub-judice matter. But now that he has left the ministry he can expose the behind the scenes events.



That's an internal matter of Pakistan not concerning outsiders like us. 

The words 'obviously' etc. mean nothing in legal parlance. What matter are the OFFICIAL WRITTEN RECORDS. 

You are trying to hide the failure of your FO to present an OFFICIAL WRITTEN RECORD/STATEMENT even after so many days since the incident occurred. 



Asim Aquil said:


> This matter too should be decided in the courts, as this seems to be an unlawful termination.


 
'Should be' doesn't matter because that's your opinion. 

What 'should be' according to you might be the 'should not be' according to me. International matter don't function that way. 

If there's anything that 'should be' or rather 'would be' it's the preservation of Internationally accepted conventions and practices.


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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> Comes under Prime Ministerial prerogative, the courts have no locus standi in the matter.


 
The courts CAN give a verdict against anyone falsifying documents.

Qureshi didn't come up with this decision, this was determined by the ministry and all its technical staff. How many people will they replace and silence? Qureshi has already been summoned by the court to speak on the matter. So I'd trust the Chief Justice of the LHC to better interpret the law, than you, thanks.

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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 2 suspected crimes were committed within minutes of eachother; possible double-murder as well as hit and run involving manslaughter (among other charges)
> 
> yes, ''charges''
> 
> surely when Pakistan is given assurance that Davis will be tried in American court; when Pakistan is given assurance that the identity and whereabouts of the other driver will be ascertained so he can be brought to trial as well --then we can talk about it becoming an international matter
> 
> your logic applies to those with diplomatic immunity; thus far, it is to be determined whether the current suspect -a technical advisor/consultant (as he himself stated in the video)-- has immunity.
> 
> That is, if it hasn't been determined already --i am not privvy to the details and therefore not in a position to make an authoritative conclusion. The courts are capable and will determine it as the proceedings are still underway.


 
Of course the courts are capable. Who said they aren't. But how can even a 'capable' court issue directives on something that is beyond its powers to adjudicate?

Vienna convention, which Pakistan has ratified in 1972, excludes the role of courts when it comes to settling the matter of diplomatic status.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

this is semi-off-topic

''Hyperion'' is a company only in name. They have a website.

a website that one could have made in roughly 25-30 minutes using dreamweaver/basic html.

apparently, no such company even exists.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

The HBS Guy said:


> Of course the courts are capable. Who said they aren't. But how can even a 'capable' court issue directives on something that is beyond its powers to adjudicate?
> 
> Vienna convention, which Pakistan has ratified in 1972, excludes the role of courts when it comes to settling the matter of diplomatic status.


 
if and when the suspects have immunity in the first place, which apparently Davis did not.

as a civilian, he would be liable to answer to the local courts


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## Awesome

The HBS Guy said:


> Vienna convention, which Pakistan has ratified in 1972, excludes the role of courts when it comes to settling the matter of diplomatic status.


 
Denying the obvious won't help.

The LAW has arrested someone.

The Law states a trial has to be held

The law says the trial can be circumvented if there is immunity.

The FM only presents the case of immunity, the court decides it.

here is the SERVING Foreign Secretary stating that FACT:

'Court to decide on Davis case'-Pakistan-World-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if and when the suspects have immunity in the first place, which apparently Davis did not.
> 
> as a civilian, he would be liable to answer to the local courts


 
Your statement is self-contradictory. 

By saying 'as a civilian' and 'apparently Davis did not', you are passing judgement on the diplomatic status of a person claiming diplomatic immunity. 

What's left then? Now you've become the judge and the prosecutor all by yourself.

It's for the FO to decide. I don't know why are you guys having so much difficulty understanding such simple words.


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## Awesome

Pakistani police stating to Davis that his passport does not certify him as a diplomat.


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## Bang Galore

Asim Aquil said:


> The courts CAN give a verdict against anyone falsifying documents.
> 
> Qureshi didn't come up with this decision, this was determined by the ministry and all its technical staff. How many people will they replace and silence? Qureshi has already been summoned by the court to speak on the matter. So I'd trust the Chief Justice of the LHC to better interpret the law, than you, thanks.



Cabinet appointees fall in the preserve of Prime Ministerial prerogative. No court including the LHC can interfere in that. Falsifying documents fall into a different arena completely. The foreign minister has no legal recourse, only political. Even the foreign secretary would ordinarily have no legal recourse to being sacked as foreign secretary, that position cannot be claimed as a right. He would however have legal recourse if he was sacked from the foreign service.


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## ajtr

*Pakistani seeks arrest of second U.S. employee​*

(Reuters) - A Pakistani man is demanding the arrest of a second U.S. embassy employee in Pakistan, his lawyer said on Friday, adding fuel to an incident that has severely strained ties between Washington and Islamabad.

The move comes as U.S. officials pressure Pakistan to release Raymond Davis, a U.S. consulate employee who is locked in a jail after shooting and killing two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore last month in what he said was an attempted robbery.

Ijaz-ur-Rehman, whose brother Ibad was killed when a U.S. vehicle came to Davis' rescue in the aftermath of the January 27 shooting, filed a petition in the Lahore High Court demanding the car's driver be arrested, lawyer Noman Atiq said.

Atiq said his client had asked for the vehicle, which the U.S. State Department said was driven by an embassy staff member, to be impounded.

"We want a proper investigation to be carried out in the murder of my brother," Rehman said. "What we want is for the culprits to be punished for their crime."

The fate of Davis, a former U.S. Special Forces soldier, is another test for the frayed U.S.-Pakistani alliance, already strained by U.S. allegations that Pakistan has not acted strongly enough against Islamist militants launching attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

Yet the government of President Asif Ali Zardari, battling its own insurgency and struggling to hold together a fragile political coalition, is reluctant to ignite popular fury in a case that has galvanized anti-American sentiment.

Hundreds of opposition and Islamist activists protested in front of the U.S. consulate in Lahore and across town, burning tires and the U.S. flag and demanding Davis stay in Pakistan. Similar protests were held in Karachi, Peshawar and Multan.

The United States insists Davis is covered by diplomatic immunity but, while it has signaled it agrees, the Zardari government has so far said the matter must be decided in court.

The identity of the U.S. embassy employee who drove the car that struck and killed Ibad-ur-Rehman has not been made public.

Rana Sanaullah, law minister in Punjab province, where Lahore is located, said officials were pressing the federal government to arrange for the car to be handed over from the United States, but had not yet received a reply.

(Additional reporting by Zeeshan Haider in ISLAMABAD;writing by Missy Ryan; Editing by Chris Allbritton and Sugita Katyal)


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## Awesome

*47 witness attest to the fact that no gun was pointed at Raymond and he wasn't acting in self-defence: Police Charge-Sheet*

The charge-sheet also contains the statements of 47 witnesses, who have said that Davis did not shoot the men in self-defence. They also said that Davis had shot directly at the two boys and kept shooting even when one of them tried to flee. Police have requested the court to act against Davis under Section 302 of the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC). Davis is due to appear in court on February 25.

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## Awesome

Bang Galore said:


> Cabinet appointees fall in the preserve of Prime Ministerial prerogative. No court including the LHC can interfere in that. Falsifying documents fall into a different arena completely. The foreign minister has no legal recourse, only political. Even the foreign secretary would ordinarily have no legal recourse to being sacked as foreign secretary, that position cannot be claimed as a right. He would however have legal recourse if he was sacked from the foreign service.


 
The court when it determines that the documents were falsified, can invalidate the new determination of the Foreign Ministry. Of course when the federal government is determined to bypass the law it probably can, but when the public sees them violating the judicial system, who will save them when the mob enters Shara-e-Dastoor (Constitution Avenue), and forces justice.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

The HBS Guy said:


> Your statement is self-contradictory.
> 
> By saying 'as a civilian' and 'apparently Davis did not', you are passing judgement on the diplomatic status of a person claiming diplomatic immunity.
> 
> What's left then? Now you've become the judge and the prosecutor all by yourself.
> 
> It's for the FO to decide. I don't know why are you guys having so much difficulty understanding such simple words.


 
you seem quite confused; do go back and review my earlier posts....

almost EVERYTHING here is speculation; I am basing my information on what I know and/or what I have read from the news reports

davis himself said he is a tech. advisor/consultant. By the way, his Honda didn't even have diplomatic plates. They were civilian plates (which, it appears, were bogus)

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## American Eagle

The facts are not created by false statements most likely purchased well after the fact of the failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis.

But the world will see all the valid facts when and after the Pakistani Court's Order is first answered by the GOP/FO acknowledging that Mr. Davis has and had full Diplomatic Immunity.

Then the judicial process will move to a federal court in the USA and Pakistan can contest the case as the complaining party in the USA, where Mr. Davis is by International law, covenant, and treaties with Pakistan entitled to first be sent because he has Diplomtic Immunity.

Be wary of those who press hard on this PDF site with obvious to any reader, Pakistani, US, UK, whatever nationality, with obvious fraud and fake points of order, when the sole, only point of Order is the declaration by the Pakistan FO through the Pakistani Government of Mr. Davis having, does have, is entitled to have and has Diplomatic Immunity.


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> The facts are not created by false statements most likely purchased well after the fact of the failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis.


 
47 eye witnesses disagree with you. What have you got?

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> 47 eye witnesses disagree with you. What have you got?


 
I have *PATIENCE *to wait for the hearing on the 25th without speculating!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistani police stating to Davis that his passport does not certify him as a diplomat.


 
a personal observation and opinion;

for somebody who is facing such serious charges, he seems not only quite relaxed but also from his physical non-verbal behaviour I am seeing some bad attitude in him. The guy's being accused of murder, and he's asking for his passport. 

by the way, i like his new haircut


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## Pak_Sher

ajtr said:


> *Pakistani seeks arrest of second U.S. employee​*
> 
> (Reuters) - A Pakistani man is demanding the arrest of a second U.S. embassy employee in Pakistan, his lawyer said on Friday, adding fuel to an incident that has severely strained ties between Washington and Islamabad.
> 
> The move comes as U.S. officials pressure Pakistan to release Raymond Davis, a U.S. consulate employee who is locked in a jail after shooting and killing two Pakistanis in the city of Lahore last month in what he said was an attempted robbery.
> 
> Ijaz-ur-Rehman, whose brother Ibad was killed when a U.S. vehicle came to Davis' rescue in the aftermath of the January 27 shooting, filed a petition in the Lahore High Court demanding the car's driver be arrested, lawyer Noman Atiq said.
> 
> Atiq said his client had asked for the vehicle, which the U.S. State Department said was driven by an embassy staff member, to be impounded.
> 
> "We want a proper investigation to be carried out in the murder of my brother," Rehman said. "What we want is for the culprits to be punished for their crime."
> 
> The fate of Davis, a former U.S. Special Forces soldier, is another test for the frayed U.S.-Pakistani alliance, already strained by U.S. allegations that Pakistan has not acted strongly enough against Islamist militants launching attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
> 
> Yet the government of President Asif Ali Zardari, battling its own insurgency and struggling to hold together a fragile political coalition, is reluctant to ignite popular fury in a case that has galvanized anti-American sentiment.
> 
> Hundreds of opposition and Islamist activists protested in front of the U.S. consulate in Lahore and across town, burning tires and the U.S. flag and demanding Davis stay in Pakistan. Similar protests were held in Karachi, Peshawar and Multan.
> 
> The United States insists Davis is covered by diplomatic immunity but, while it has signaled it agrees, the Zardari government has so far said the matter must be decided in court.
> 
> The identity of the U.S. embassy employee who drove the car that struck and killed Ibad-ur-Rehman has not been made public.
> 
> Rana Sanaullah, law minister in Punjab province, where Lahore is located, said officials were pressing the federal government to arrange for the car to be handed over from the United States, but had not yet received a reply.
> 
> (Additional reporting by Zeeshan Haider in ISLAMABAD;writing by Missy Ryan; Editing by Chris Allbritton and Sugita Katyal)


 
Definately the US Vehicle need to be imponded and the driver arrested because Mr. Ibad was totally an innocent person and his murderers cannot just walk freely. Usually US diplomats committing crimes try to leave ASAP, but Pakistan should have a record of Americans diplomats existing the country. That will be easy to narrow down.

Liberty and Justice for all, lets follow that principal.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Stratfor warns of widespread mob violence in Pakistan 

News Desk
Friday, February 18, 2011 

WASHINGTON: US-based Global Intelligence Forecast Organisation, Stratfor, has revealed that American diplomatic facilities and business interests in Pakistan were &#8216;almost certainly&#8217; reviewing their contingency plans right now and planning for the worst-case scenario anticipating widespread disturbances because of the murders committed by Raymond Davis who, it said, did not enjoy diplomatic immunity.

Stratfor revealed that as a contract employee assigned to the US Consulate in Lahore, Davis was likely not on the diplomatic list and probably did not enjoy full diplomatic immunity.

In a detailed report by Scott Stewart, Stratfor said the case could have larger consequences for Davis and for American diplomatic facilities and commercial interests in Pakistan. &#8220;There is a very real possibility that Davis&#8217; release could spark mob violence in Pakistan (and specifically Lahore). Even if the Pakistani government does try to defuse the situation, there are other parties who will attempt to stir up violence. &#8220;Due to the widespread discontent over the issue of US security contractors in Pakistan, if protests do follow the release of Davis, they can be expected to be similar to the protests that followed Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) [sacrilegious] cartoon case, i.e., they will cut across ethnic and sectarian lines and present a widespread threat.&#8221;

He was probably considered a member of the administrative or technical staff. Protecting himself during a robbery attempt would not be considered part of his official function in the country, and therefore his actions that day would not be covered under functional immunity.

At the time of the shooting, of course, Davis would not have had time to leisurely ponder the potential legal quagmire. He saw a threat and reacted to it. 

Indeed, on Feb 15, US Senator John Kerry flew to Islamabad in a bid to seek Davis&#8217; release. However, in spite of American efforts and international convention, Davis&#8217; case is complicated greatly by the fact that he was working in Pakistan and by the current state of US-Pakistani relations. 

Like Iraq, Pakistan is a country that has seen considerable controversy over American security contractors over the past several years. The government of Pakistan has gone after security contractor companies like DynCorp and its Pakistani affiliate InterRisk and Xe (formerly known as Blackwater), which has become the Pakistani version of the bogeyman. In addition to the clandestine security and intelligence work the company was conducting in Pakistan, in 2009 the Taliban even began to blame Xe for suicide bombing attacks that killed civilians. The end result is that American security contractors have become extremely unpopular in Pakistan. They are viewed not only as an affront to Pakistani sovereignty but also as trigger-happy killers. And this is the environment in which the Davis shooting occurred. 

The report warns that if the protesters are able to set fire to the building (where Davis has been lodged), as happened at the US Embassy in Islamabad in 1979, a safe-haven can become a death trap, especially if the mob can take control of the secondary escape hatch as it did in that incident, trapping the Americans inside the safe-haven. 

Once a mob attacks, there often is little that can be done - especially if the host government either cannot or will not take action to protect the facility being attacked. At that point, the focus should be on preventing injuries and saving lives - without regard to the physical property. In most cases, when a mob attacks a multinational corporation, it is attacking a symbolic target. 

US diplomatic facilities and business interests in Pakistan are almost certainly reviewing their contingency plans right now and planning for the worst-case scenario. During such times, vigilance and preparation are vital, as is a constant flow of updated intelligence pertaining to potential demonstrations. Such intelligence can provide time for an evacuation or allow other proactive security measures to be taken. With the current tension between Pakistan and the United States, there might not be much help coming when the next wave of unrest erupts, so keeping ahead of potential protests is critically important, Stratfor concluded.


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> I have *PATIENCE *to wait for the hearing on the 25th without speculating!


 
Too much patience, can also allow facts to be subverted through concentrated media manipulations that has started ever since the US machinery has become active.

On a different note, just check out what all bunkers Davis photographed:

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## Awesome

This awaits the fate of Shara-e-Dastoor if they try to circumvent the law


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I have read some reports that he (Davis) had established some contact with members of the taleban.

Can somebody confirm this, or is it a mere theory?


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## Pak_Sher

Why was Raymond Davis photographing Pakistani Military Installations. After this video, Davis seems more like a CIA Spy than a diplomat. Since Pakistan is a Non-Nato Ally, CIA has special program to screw its allies.


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## Awesome

Shumaila's uncle recounts how mysterious (probably western) figures pointed a gun to his head to withdraw the case in favor of Americans. Several villagers attest to this incident:

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## Awesome

Fauzia Wahab's stupidity criticized:


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## Awesome

Probe finds connection between Davis, drone attacks



> KARACHI: Investigation teams were astonished to learn about Raymond Davis&#8217;s alleged connections in North Waziristan, sources told DawnNews.
> 
> Sources revealed that a GPS chip recovered from the possession of Davis was being used in identifying targets for drone attacks in the tribal region.
> 
> The 36 year old US official was hesitant in giving out information about his visits to the tribal region during investigations, sources said.
> 
> The US Embassy Officials were also exerting pressure on the investigation teams, asking the not to expose the information received from Davis.
> 
> It was also learnt that Davis made up to 12 visits to the tribal areas without prior notification to Pakistani officials.
> 
> The Punjab government has shared the investigation and the possessions recovered from Davis with the federal government, said sources.



Now this is a national security threat. Not only Davis should be on trial but the current CIA department chief in Pakistan should be taken to court on this issue.

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Too much patience, can also allow facts to be subverted through concentrated media manipulations that has started ever since the US machinery has become active.



AA: If there is any manipulation going on, it is the Pakistani media who are manipulating the general population into a needless frenzy that will be detrimental to Pakistan itself in the long run.


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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> AA: If there is any manipulation going on, it is the Pakistani media who are manipulating the general population into a needless frenzy that will be detrimental to Pakistan itself in the long run.


 
What frenzy? I don't understand what is the acceptable response in your opinion to a foreign country coming and killing your nationals?

Demand for a judicial end to this incident is not frenzy.

How you fail to see that setting a precedent of American consulate/embassy staff (which now number above 1000) murdering Pakistanis and walking off scot free won't be detrimental to Pakistan is beyond me.

Your definition of "detrimental to Pakistan" is flawed.

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## Pak_Sher

Asim Aquil said:


> Probe finds connection between Davis, drone attacks
> 
> 
> 
> Now this is a national security threat. Not only Davis should be on trial but the current CIA department chief in Pakistan should be taken to court on this issue.


 
No just the CIA also the FBI Operations and their local agents need to be monitored. Mushraaf allowed CIA and FBI to hire locals. This is a big national secuirty threat.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> What frenzy? I don't understand what is the acceptable response in your opinion to a foreign country coming and killing your nationals?
> 
> Demand for a judicial end to this incident is not frenzy.
> 
> How you fail to see that setting a precedent of American consulate/embassy staff (which now number above 1000) murdering Pakistanis and walking off scot free won't be detrimental to Pakistan is beyond me.
> 
> Your definition of "detrimental to Pakistan" is flawed.


 
Please allow me to explain:

There is no doubt that proper process needs to be followed to adjudicate the death of two Pakistani nationals by an individual whose claim of diplomatic immunity has been verified by the sitting US president. Such a process is already underway. This "trial by media" tactic (fed by leaks from within the investigating and adjudicating authorities) for a matter that is clearly subjudice may amount to contempt of court since overt and covert threats by terrorist outfits and opportunistic political interests are well known, as well as pressure by media pundits.

Let us all wait for the hearing on the 25th without endlessly revisiting fixed points of view by both sides, that is all I can say at this point.

As for "detrimental" as I intended to use it, at present, Pakistan can ill-afford the economic price that is surely going to be extracted if this process is perceived in the US as having violated international treaties and the freedom of a diplomat. Patriotic chest-thumping about eating grass to survive is one thing, recovering from an on-going war and recent disastrous flooding, with a worsening civil strife situation, is quite another.

I hope my contention is clearer now.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Can you point out what Pakistani newspapers (not counting comments sections or anonymous letters) have advanced my arguments, specifically that (1) the diplomatic treaties are the highest law of the land, (2) that under full immunity Davis cannot be jailed or prosecuted for any reason, and that (3) even under "consular" immunity he can't be held in jail once the police on the scene had determined that no "grave crime" had been committed?


Almost every major Pakistani paper that I have read has carried articles both in support of and against the argument that Davis has blanket immunity from prosecution for the murder of two Pakistanis and his other crimes.

Here is a sampling of three articles just from today's Express Tribune:

Raymond Davis case: Bitter truths &#8211; The Express Tribune
Ghairat and other issues &#8211; The Express Tribune
Not for the court to decide &#8211; The Express Tribune

Other articles by Pakistani authors such as Kamran Shafi etc., in support of the US position, were posted earlier in the thread.

Properly analyzing the facts related to an argument you intend to make, especially when accusing an entity (in this case the Pakistani media) of one sided bias, would be in order next time.

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## HRK

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I have read some reports that he (Davis) had established some contact with members of the taleban.
> 
> Can somebody confirm this, or is it a mere theory?


 
I read the same in news papers


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## AstanoshKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I have read some reports that he (Davis) had established some contact with members of the taleban.
> 
> Can somebody confirm this, or is it a mere theory?


 
There you go...




AstanoshKhan said:


> *Detained US official &#8216;in telephone contact with terrorist groups&#8217;*
> 
> By Rob Crilly, Islamabad 4:54PM GMT 10 Feb 2011
> 
> *A US official, detained in Pakistan after shooting dead two men, had made contact with Taliban-linked extremists in the country&#8217;s lawless, tribal region, according to details of phone records leaked by the police.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sources close to the investigation said Raymond Davis, 36, had made a series of telephone calls to South Waziristan, a tribal area along the border with Afghanistan synonymous with militant activity.
> 
> The mystery surrounding Davis has deepened since he was arrested in Lahore two weeks ago. He has told police officers he shot dead two men in self defence.
> 
> *The US insists he is a diplomat based at the embassy in Islamabad and should be granted immunity.
> 
> However, security sources have leaked a series of details suggesting that he may have had a clandestine role.
> 
> &#8220;His phone records clearly show he was in contact with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, for what reason we can only speculate,&#8221; said a police officer, referring to a terrorist group with close links to the Pakistani Taliban.*
> 
> *Hamid Gul, a former head of Pakistan&#8217;s spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, said the phone calls suggested he was a secret agent.
> 
> &#8220;This is a classic intelligence technique &#8211; to get inside the head of the enemy,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Davis, who is due to appear in court on Friday, is a former special forces soldier who left the US army in 2003 after 10 years of service, according to Pentagon records.*
> 
> Mobile phone footage obtained by the Dunya TV channel shows him pleading for the return of his passport shortly after his arrest.
> 
> &#8220;I need to tell the embassy where I am at,&#8221; he said, during a confused interrogation as police officers interrupt and laugh in the background.
> 
> He went on to tell them that he was working at the US consulate in Lahore &#8220;I just work as a consultant there, with the [Regional Affairs Office],&#8221; he said.
> 
> His arrest is deeply embarrassing to the governments of both Pakistan and the US, which has suspended some high-level talks in order to increase pressure on Islamabad.
> 
> Source: The Telegraph

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## Abu Zolfiqar

I thought the U.S. declared taleban an enemy (and a terrorist group)? 

if accurate, that's just a *tad* bit bizarre.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> Obama's opinions means squat to us. American justice system means squat to us.


Sounds like a lot of Pakistanis badly need education on these issues.



> We have actual evidence of guilt -


No, you don't. The killings qualify as a "grave crime" only if the intent of murder can be proved. The police immediately on the scene did not believe this was the case. At this point Davis, whether he had full diplomatic immunity or the weaker "consular" type, should have been released while a police investigation continued without him. If Davis has full immunity he should be sent home. If he has the "consular" sort he is supposed to remain out of prison until a final determination of the case is made. 

However, it seems likely Davis has the full immunity usually granted to security men. Hasn't anybody interviewed his Pakistani counterparts in the U.S.? I imagine they have the same level of immunity. Nothing unusual there.

Based on what happened after the Mumbai attack, I put much more faith in the initial police reports than a politicized investigation. After Mumbai Pakistani police quickly found the home village and family of the surviving gunman, but were then ordered to suppress that information for many months. link On what grounds do high-ranking law enforcement officials possess greater credibility now than they did then?



> ...we have no presentation of immunity papers from the Pakistani FO -


Yes, they have dithered. It is against international law but the FO is doing so. I suppose that after Tasser's popular murder every official is afraid to do something unpopular among the armed and angry folk.



> - we have only demanded he go to trial, and expose all these hair brained theories of ours as false and uphold the truth, justice and American way!


Sounds to me like you've already convicted him and a sentence of nothing less than death will satisfy you. 



> If your man is immune, then present those papers. If your man is innocent then fight in court.


Under international law the U.S. isn't supposed to present papers to a Pakistani court but to the FO. The FO then intervenes. This, the FO is afraid to do. 

It doesn't surprise me so much. How many Pakistani officials are willing to take an unpopular stand merely out of moral and legal concerns?

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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> And read the Pakistani law that states that the determination of immunity rests with the federal government.


That seems to conflict with the 1961 Vienna Convention which makes the FO alone the judge of such matters. Reference, please.


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## AstanoshKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I thought the U.S. declared taleban an enemy (and a terrorist group)?
> 
> that's just a tad bit bizarre.


 
I'm quite young and not matured enough but one thing i've learned so far that in todays world "reality and appearance is always opposite to each other'' and the case of Taleban/Alqaeda is one such good example. Thanks to RAD and his arrogance, this just put a confirmation stamp on it. Bravo RAD


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.


That is correct, though the question of blanket diplomatic immunity in the case of Raymond Davis continues to be unanswered.

However, this brings up a related point. Pakistani law enforcement stopped US and other Western diplomats several times over the last year or two when they were traveling in areas they were not authorized to be in, and carrying weapons they were not authorized to carry. The GoP ordered the release of the individuals involved in these cases with absolutely no consequences for the diplomats and missions concerned - and by consequences I am referring to expulsion of the concerned individuals, and perhaps even the head of the missions (if the incidents did not cease) to send a message that such flagrant violations of Pakistani laws and procedures would not be tolerated. 

Had the above been done when these cases were coming to light in the past year or so, we might not have had 'Raymond Davis' roaming around in an unauthorized area, illegally carrying weapons. For this we only have our wonderful Zardari/PPP led government to blame. As the article I posted earlier indicates, not only did the Zardari government allow all these 'diplomats' caught committing illegal acts off the hook, it further facilitated the issuance of visas without the correct background checks or vetting of individuals concerned.

Zardari and his coterie of PPP sycophants deserve a lot of the blame here.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> I strongly doubt that's the case, since the initial police report said it was self-defense. The police cover-up claiming "murder" came later.


I am not sure which police report you are referring to, since the only official 'Initial Police Report' I can locate states the following:

_Police investigators into the double murder case of American killer Raymond Davis have submitted their initial report to the Punjab government, on Friday. According to government sources the investigators did not find the US killer's claim of self-defence convincing. Instead, the investigators see his act as an excessive and disproportionate use of force, which is not covered in the definition of self-defence as per the law of the land. It also added that the US Consulate is mum over the driver and the vehicle that crushed Amadur Rehman._​Police investogators submit initial report in Raymond case to Govt | Pakistan News | Onepakistan.com



> No joke. Wrongful imprisonment is a serious matter, especially to Mr. Davis. Eventually he or his estate will be able to seize Pakistani government property in the U.S. to meet a court-ordered settlement - and the longer Davis is in prison, the more property that will cost Pakistan.


Hogwash - if 'wrongful imprisonment' was really a serious matter, then we would not have seen the following decision from US courts, pushed and supported by the US government, on far, far worse treatment meted out to an individual at the hands of the United States:

_The U.S. Supreme Court declined Monday to review the dismissal of a lawsuit brought against the government by a Canadian citizen who, under suspicion of being connected to Al Qaeda, was sent by U.S. authorities to be tortured in Syria.

The rejection likely marks the end of Maher Arar&#8217;s chances of getting redress from the federal government for an egregious decision made by the Bush administration. The U.S. stonewalling of Arar&#8217;s search for justice has continued under the Obama administration, which argues that the doctrine of &#8220;State Secrets&#8221; precludes allowing any judge to review the materials that led John Ashcroft&#8217;s Justice Department to send Arar to Syria.

Arar was detained in the United States on a stopover at JFK on his way back to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. After being held for 12 days, he was sent to Syria, the country of his birth, where he was imprisoned for almost a year. The Bush administration ignored his protests that he would be tortured there.

Arar was held in Syria for 10 and a half months in a cell measuring 3 feet by 6 feet by 7 feet, and was tortured with steel cables.

Upon his release, Arar sued Bush&#8217;s Justice Department, but his lawsuit was rejected by a succession of U.S. courts, in part out of deference to the executive branch&#8217;s claim that national security would be harmed by allowing a federal judge to review the relevant evidence. That&#8217;s a common legal maneuver that was used frequently by the Bush administration, and which Obama pledged to use less often. So far, those promises have been proven to be empty._​Supreme Court Rejects Case of Tortured Canadian | Threat Level | Wired.com

One set of laws for Americans, and another set for the rest, especially Muslims.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I thought the U.S. declared taleban an enemy (and a terrorist group)?
> 
> that's just a tad bit bizarre.


 
Bro... I speak with experience that the way certain people do politics is more bizarre than the best science fiction... 

We Pakistanis are actually very simple people... trust me the most cunning Pakistani does not compare anything with some of our rivals... 

What works best for us is our straight forwardness... and use cunning in war only... the more upfront and assertive our diplomacy is, the better we will fare in the long run...


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> That seems to conflict with the 1961 Vienna Convention which makes the FO alone the judge of such matters. Reference, please.


 
The Foreign Ministry is a part of the federal government. I'm saying the same thing, however the FO itself has deferred this decision to the Judicial system, as you'd see the Foreign Secretary Say the matter is sub-judice in the courts. The FO would still be the one presenting all the evidence for or against immunity.


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## American Eagle

You misunderstand and misinterpert US laws.

Under the Patriot Act, a relatively new US law, due to the ongoing war on terrorism, the US can use it's allies to assist in language and cultural factor mediation and interpretation, which is what your posting is about.

As regards the other poster who you dismiss he is entirely correct and suit for wrongful imprisonment is a remedy available to him in the US legal system.

This all revolves around Diplomatic Immunity and your presumption that DI does not exist for Mr. Davis and the presumption based on US and International Law, Convention, and Treaties of the President of the United States that Mr. Davis is covered by complete Diplomatic Immunity.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> It doesn't surprise me so much. How many Pakistani officials are willing to take an unpopular stand merely out of moral and legal concerns?


 
something about ''moral'' ????

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

VCheng said:


> IB: Sir, RD's case may very well have many layers of complexity, but the boundaries of the issues have already been carefully and closely defined, and no further digging up would benefit anybody. You may of course disagree with me here, but I am sure you will understand why I say this.


I disagree with you - there is a important reason for highlighting the illegal and suspect conduct of Raymond Davis (and various other 'diplomats' over the last few years) for reasons I touched upon a couple of posts ago. The GoP has let these goons run around flouting the law, and that is directly responsible for Raymond Davis being where he was, illegally armed, and the subsequent deaths. Without highlighting these flagrant violations of Pakistani law, aided and abetted by the Pakistani Government, the larger issue remains unresolved.

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> something about ''moral'' ????


 
_Yeah, just like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.( feel free to fill in the belanks!


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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the Pakistani courts will determine whether this consultant/tech. advisor had immunity in the first place


This appears to be an illegal procedure. 



> Self-defence argument has already been ruled out --though the capable and applicable courts can confirm that, not members of PDF.


The point is that Davis should have been released immediately because he has full immunity. Even if his immunity was of the "consular" sort he should have been released once the police in the scene determined they had no cause to suspect him of the "grave crime" of murder.



> If there is a hit and run involving vehicular manslaughter in DC or Miami or anywhere else in the US --it is a felony. A serious crime.


In seventh grade one of my classmates was killed by a drunken driver. The driver was not charged with committing a felony.



> most likely, the operators of that vehicle have been priority rushed out of the country......flight from justice before he/they could even be remanded or questioned.


People with immunity aren't supposed to be held for questioning.



> the davis case has proven to be a mockery of justice; as every day passes, the U.S. is harming its relations with Pakistan --especially the common man Pakistani.


It doesn't have to be that way. A person with diplomatic immunity CAN be prosecuted but the correct venue is a court of the state that sent him. Since most countries don't bother with the effort of sending police officials and eyewitnesses overseas that usually means no case can be made so nothing happens. However, I would guess that if Davis was kicked out the GoP actually would make such an effort.



> - and it's a shame, given our history since independence and given our partnership during the cold war.


Yes, shame. But the common element between now and then is the Pakistani expectation that the Americans will always step in and save them without the necessity of any Pakistani sticking their neck out. It will take a long time to change this - and it won't happen at all unless Pakistanis really want to change and start thinking like free people, rather than peasants.


> I do trust our courts though.


After Taseer's death I doubt Pakistani judges see themselves as immune from the persuasive threat of assassination.



> Quite amazing (amusing?) that Davis has access to a jail superintendant every time he throws a tantrum -


Why not? From Davis' point of view he isn't supposed to be in prison at all - and the superintendant knows it. Even if the U.S. government does nothing, someday Davis or his estate will sue in U.S. civil court, alleging wrongful imprisonment and seeking damages from all concerned. And the jail superintendant should be very, very concerned.






*Pearls before swine!! *[/QUOTE]


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

American Eagle said:


> You misunderstand and misinterpert US laws.
> 
> Under the Patriot Act, a relatively new US law, due to the ongoing war on terrorism, the US can use it's allies to assist in language and cultural factor mediation and interpretation, which is what your posting is about.
> 
> As regards the other poster who you dismiss he is entirely correct and suit for wrongful imprisonment is a remedy available to him in the US legal system.


I am not misunderstanding or misinterpreting anything - a Canadian Muslim man was wrongfully detained and imprisoned by the US, and then sent by the US to be imprisoned and tortured overseas. It doesn't get any more 'wrongful imprisonment' than that, and both a Republican and Democratic administration have defended the atrocities this poor, innocent Canadian man was subjected to by the US Government.

Your defence of this atrocity only further substantiates the argument of American double standards and moral and ethical bankruptcy when it comes to any argument of 'equal application of the laws' for all human beings.


> This all revolves around Diplomatic Immunity and your presumption that DI does not exist for Mr. Davis and the presumption based on US and International Law, Convention, and Treaties of the President of the United States that Mr. Davis is covered by complete Diplomatic Immunity.


Given the various statements out of the US mission, as well as Raymond Davis's location, and his own statements to Pakistani officials, he is a consulate employee, and therefore the relevant conventions do allow for his prosecution by the host nation if his crimes are deemed 'grave' by a judicial authority.

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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> by the way, and i reiterate it again and again --- the courts will decide whether it was self-defence or not.


And during such an investigation a diplomat with even partial immunity isn't supposed to be jailed or questioned, and one with full immunity is supposed to be released, period.



> if i am not mistaken, he was unauthorized to be carrying a weapon and he was driving a vehicle with fake registration --in fact he wasn't even authorized to be on the road where he was.


Even if true, Davis surrenders none of his immunity by such a violation; all you can do is expel him.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

And speaking of 'American callousness over the loss of life', the US Consulate hasn't even bothered replying to the Punjab Government and police's various inquiries about the individuals involved in the death of the innocent bystander. 

At the very least, at least from any respectable and law abiding mission, one would have expected cooperation from US consulate officials, even if only to clarify who the employees were and that they (possibly) had immunity from prosecution. From the very beginning the US Embassy, Consulate and various US legislators and officials have behaved like arrogant thugs, blackmailing and threatening Pakistan in order to get it to accept its demands.


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> Sounds like a lot of Pakistanis badly need education on these issues.


Actually you badly need to stop talking like we're stupid. This is a case of the American state, involved in terrorist activities in Pakistan. We are blunt nation, and when wronged, we openly and unabashedly take the enemy on.



> No, you don't. The killings qualify as a "grave crime" only if the intent of murder can be proved.


I have 47 eyewitnesses witnesses, what have you got?



> However, it seems likely Davis has the full immunity usually granted to security men. Hasn't anybody interviewed his Pakistani counterparts in the U.S.? I imagine they have the same level of immunity. Nothing unusual there.


Security men? Wasn't he IT staff? Not according to the FO manual in Pakistan which recognizes him as non-diplomatic staff and I quote once again:

Leadership under pressure on Davis | Newspaper | DAWN.COM



> FO&#8217;s protocol manual 2010 edition accords &#8216;non-diplomatic status&#8217; to the &#8216;administrative and technical staff&#8217; of foreign missions. This designation as &#8216;non-diplomatic staff&#8217;, according to FO officials, qualifies personnel working in this cadre only for limited immunity in respect of acts performed during the course of duties.





> Based on what happened after the Mumbai attack, I put much more faith in the initial police reports than a politicized investigation. After Mumbai Pakistani police quickly found the home village and family of the surviving gunman, but were then ordered to suppress that information for many months. link On what grounds do high-ranking law enforcement officials possess greater credibility now than they did then?



The high ranking ones are still in your pocket and singing the American tune. I'm with the low level ones. The only high ranking official, Shah Mehmood Qureshi that spoke against the American position was fired from his job.



> Yes, they have dithered. It is against international law but the FO is doing so. I suppose that after Tasser's popular murder every official is afraid to do something unpopular among the armed and angry folk.


They are YOUR people, they just fired their main man for you. You don't even give them the kindness to give them some time to cook up a backdated immunity for your man when he has none?

This is a question I should be asking, why is it taking them so long to say if he has immunity or not? If they come up with immunity in three weeks, that just appears highly suspicious.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi pointed to the same fact that the court did not surprise this on them and gave them 2 weeks to figure out their paper work:

FO plea for more time shocks Qureshi



> &#8220;I am absolutely shocked that the Foreign Office has asked for more time to ascertain whether Raymond Davis enjoys immunity or not. This is very, very unusual and rather fishy. The Foreign Office should have presented their case. I really do not know and have no idea as to what has happened after I left the Foreign Ministry. Did not the Foreign Office know two weeks ago that they were required to submit their response today? It is not that the Lahore High Court has all of a sudden asked the Foreign Office for a response. Under my leadership we had given our decision. I examined the documents placed before me and in my considered opinion, I agreed with the Foreign Office&#8217;s stand.* I had taken this decision to the Prime Minister*&#8221;, Shah Mehmood told The News.



There you go, the Foreign Office's decision of immunity was given to the PM and then the PM fired him for that decision and now after his removal we know what that decision was. So really, don't pretend to be upset with the federal government, when your people and they are hands in glove.



> Sounds to me like you've already convicted him and a sentence of nothing less than death will satisfy you.


On the contrary, a court's decision indeed finding him acting in self-defence is fine with me. What won't satisfy Pakistan is the immunity plea, as that gives your people (which number over 1000) a licence to kill my people. It is a question of self-preservation.



> Under international law the U.S. isn't supposed to present papers to a Pakistani court but to the FO. The FO then intervenes. This, the FO is afraid to do.


The papers you have presented clearly indicate that he is technical and administrative staff - the word diplomat hasn't been used in written papers, till now.

I have already quoted earlier in this post, how the FO manual 2010 edition interprets the meaning of technical and administrative staff... Since you have a tendency to forget, that means "non-diplomatic staff". Repeat after me, "non-diplomatic staff".



> It doesn't surprise me so much. How many Pakistani officials are willing to take an unpopular stand merely out of moral and legal concerns?


 
Yeah like they are supporting the "popular" drone attacks, or took the "popular" kerry lugar aid? We don't call it Amreekistan for nothing.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> This appears to be an illegal procedure.



how so



> The point is that Davis should have been released immediately because he has full immunity.



proof?



> Even if his immunity was of the "consular" sort he should have been released once the police in the scene determined they had no cause to suspect him of the "grave crime" of murder.



you need to read up a little bit more 




> In seventh grade one of my classmates was killed by a drunken driver. The driver was not charged with committing a felony.



that's because the driver evidently didn't flee from the scene.

Drunken driving = misdemeanor

Vehicular manslaughter = can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony punishable by a term in state prison, depending on the circumstances (e.g. priors, BAC, and other factors not limited to just how strict the judge is)


surely you don't need me to educate you on your own laws



> People with immunity aren't supposed to be held for questioning.



under most circumstances, you are right...however, this consultant/tech advisor engaged in unauthorized use of a weapon while committing his act. 

I trust the courts in conjunction with the FO and MoI will determine the haves and have-nots.







> It doesn't have to be that way. A person with diplomatic immunity CAN be prosecuted but the correct venue is a court of the state that sent him.



given that the driver of the other vehicle has not been presented to court (not will he likely be) -- Davis could possibly be treated as a flight risk. US assured cooperation, so hopefully after all this hulabaloo and threats to cut aid and what have you, the US will assure Pakistan that Davis will face a fair and neutral trial in his native country.





> Yes, shame. But the common element between now and then is the Pakistani expectation that the Americans will always step in and save them without the necessity of any Pakistani sticking their neck out. It will take a long time to change this - and it won't happen at all unless Pakistanis really want to change and start thinking like free people, rather than peasants.



thanks for exposing your true colours and sentiments and confirming what some (even overly-emotional) Pakistanis perceive your attitude to be 




> After Taseer's death I doubt Pakistani judges see themselves as immune from the persuasive threat of assassination.



your diversionary tactics and sensationalism won't work here, Suleyman




> Why not? From Davis' point of view he isn't supposed to be in prison at all - and the superintendant knows it.



do share more info, you seem quite privy to the investigation.

That's right --investigation. His immunity has not been proven. Furthermore, hit and run suspects in a seperate yet associated case are on the loose --scott free. 




> Even if the U.S. government does nothing, someday Davis or his estate will sue in U.S. civil court, alleging wrongful imprisonment and seeking damages from all concerned. And the jail superintendant should be very, very concerned.



with all due respect, I think they could care less

as for the jail superintendant, are you referring to the one who (stupidly) put down the Jumaa Azan speaker because Davis squealed and flapped his arms and legs over it?

how many prisons do you know where suspects can cry like sissies and have their demands heeded to? What a banana republic we are if murder suspects get mineral water and preferential treatment. (we should be enraged also about those who showered Qadri with petals)

In U.S. prisons, inmates dont even get toilet paper

but we digress....

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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Almost every major Pakistani paper that I have read has carried articles both in support of and against the argument that Davis has blanket immunity from prosecution for the murder of two Pakistanis and his other crimes.
> 
> Here is a sampling of three articles just from today's Express Tribune:
> 
> Raymond Davis case: Bitter truths  The Express Tribune
> Ghairat and other issues  The Express Tribune
> Not for the court to decide  The Express Tribune


Thank you. I think I will spend more time reading these papers. Is there some reason you don't find these authors' arguments convincing?



> Properly analyzing the facts related to an argument you intend to make, especially when accusing an entity (in this case the Pakistani media) of one sided bias, would be in order next time.


Accepted.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Asim Aquil said:


> The foreign office already determined and stated there is no immunity...
> 
> The only problem is US loyalists fired him from the position.
> 
> If you can understand urdu, he says it loud and clear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So really why are they taking so long? It takes time to fire one guy after he said so on TV and then they need time to create fake papers!


 
The Foreign Office is being reshuffled, ostensibly to remove any officials refusing to distort the facts in the Raymond Davis case. 

Shake-up in the Foreign Office &#8211; The Express Tribune

This 'three week' timeline requested by Zardari and the PPP will be used for working on two tracks to free Davis illegally:

1. Forging the necessary documentation to provide Davis with immunity and/or putting in place pliable officials in the Foreign Office who will lie about Davis having immunity to the court.

2. Working over the families of the victims to make them accept compensation and 'pardon' Davis. We already have reports that threats and coercion are being used to accomplish this, whereas under Islamic law such a pardon is supposed to be voluntary.

No doubt Zardari/Gillani and the PPP would prefer the second option, since it absolves them of taking a position either in support of Davis's immunity or against it.


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## Solomon2

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Pakistani law enforcement stopped US and other Western diplomats several times over the last year or two when they were traveling in areas they were not authorized to be in, and carrying weapons they were not authorized to carry. The GoP ordered the release of the individuals involved in these cases with absolutely no consequences for the diplomats and missions concerned - and by consequences I am referring to expulsion of the concerned individuals, and perhaps even the head of the missions (if the incidents did not cease) to send a message that such flagrant violations of Pakistani laws and procedures would not be tolerated. Had the above been done when these cases were coming to light in the past year or so, we might not have had 'Raymond Davis' roaming around in an unauthorized area, illegally carrying weapons. For this we only have our wonderful Zardari/PPP led government to blame.


I did not know about these previous incidents and assuming your description of them is correct I agree with you. The repeated failure to expel personnel caught with illegal weapons could only be interpreted as a signal of Pakistani acquiescence if not quiet encouragement.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> The repeated failure to expel personnel caught with illegal weapons could only be interpreted as a signal of Pakistani acquiescence if not quiet encouragement.


 
Absolutely, and as MK alluded to earlier, the emotions seen over the Davis issue are more of a reflection of the larger sense of grievance Pakistanis feel (in terms of the US flouting Pakistani laws under Musharraf and Zardari to illegally have people extradited, drone strikes, covert operations etc.). And this sense of grievance is directed not just at the US government, but also at Pakistani rulers who aid and abet these actions. Note the unpopularity of Musharraf and Zardari, and the mass protests against the former when people had had enough. 

Davis (as a small example of GoP-US policies flouting Pakistani laws) is merely allowing Pakistanis, fed up with all of this, a tangible figure and issue to coalesce around and take out their grievances on.

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## Awesome

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Foreign Office is being reshuffled, ostensibly to remove any officials refusing to distort the facts in the Raymond Davis case.
> 
> Shake-up in the Foreign Office &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> This 'three week' timeline requested by Zardari and the PPP will be used for working on two tracks to free Davis illegally:
> 
> 1. Forging the necessary documentation to provide Davis with immunity and/or putting in place pliable officials in the Foreign Office who will lie about Davis having immunity to the court.
> 
> 2. Working over the families of the victims to make them accept compensation and 'pardon' Davis. We already have reports that threats and coercion are being used to accomplish this, whereas under Islamic law such a pardon is supposed to be voluntary.
> 
> No doubt Zardari/Gillani and the PPP would prefer the second option, since it absolves them of taking a position either in support of Davis's immunity or against it.



So far it seems like even Faizan's family is not ready to fold, since 5 cases of dacoity that were done by an Umar are being pinned on Faizan, but the other two, Faheem's family and Ibad's families are pressing on. Granted Faheem's family has lost 2 people and Ibad was just a bystander, crushed to his death.

Hopefully none of this would work. 

However the shakeup in the foreign office is what suits the US best. Since that gives the US a clear path to immunity. The American loyal federal government of Pakistan miscalculates that it would survive such a fraud.

I think as long as the pressure is kept upon the federal government they will not be able to present a fake case in the courts. Immunity cannot be that complicated a matter, either they granted it to him upon his arrival in Pakistan or they did not.


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## Pak_Sher

The US is very much interested in Mr. Davis's release as much as the Israelis are to date interested in Jonathan Pollard's release. When Chief Spy's get busted, then the country doing the espionage keep pooooping until the spy caught is released, but neither Davis nor Pollard are going anywhere.


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## Andross

John kerry said the bottom line is he holds diplomatic status.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> The Foreign Ministry is a part of the federal government. I'm saying the same thing, however the FO itself has deferred this decision to the Judicial system -


The FO can't legally do that since it isn't the usual part of their process. Take a look at Articles 13, 39, and 41: link


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Pak_Sher said:


> The US is very much interested in Mr. Davis's release as much as the Israelis are to date interested in Jonathan Pollard's release. When Chief Spy's get busted, then the country doing the espionage keep pooooping until the spy caught is released, but neither Davis nor Pollard are going anywhere.


 
it should be probed (im sure behind the scenes, it is) why Davis established contacts with banned terrorist organizations 

as per news reports, he's fluent in Pashto and Urdu. Commendable, and shady at the same time.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually you badly need to stop talking like we're stupid. This is a case of the American state, involved in -


A person with immunity engaged in disagreeable activities retains his immunity.



> I have 47 eyewitnesses witnesses, what have you got?


I'm inclined to agree with American Eagle here. 



> Security men? Wasn't he IT staff?


So you think the FO granted him immunity by mistake and is trying to cover that up?


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## Andross

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it should be probed (im sure behind the scenes, it is) why Davis established contacts with banned terrorist organizations
> 
> as per news reports, he's fluent in Pashto and Urdu. Commendable, and shady at the same time.




Most security services are asking for other languages even MI5 website wants Pashto/Urdu speakers


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> The FO can't legally do that since it isn't the usual part of their process. Take a look at Articles 13, 39, and 41: link


 
Well, with the case in front of the courts, the FO can't exactly launch an 'operation' to release Davis and not satisfy the court. The FO has to make a statement to the Court that Davis has blanket immunity from prosecution and should be released immediately given Pakistani law.

However, I am uncertain what the impact of petitions challenging such a determination by the FO will be, given that those petitions essentially argue that the FO is fabricating evidence and lying when making such a determination. Can the Courts release Davis if the FO testifies that Davis has blanket immunity, but (the court) also believes that the other petitioners have made a reasonable case of 'fraud and perjury' by the Foreign Office?


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## Usama86

I highly recommend viewing 18-2-2011 News Night with Talat Hussain. The whole episode is based on the investigation conducted by the Police and their finding in this case, is very informative and is comming direct from the source because this case will proceed in the courts based on the evidence provided by the police. So whatever is written in the police challan is described very comprehensively. Below is the link for the whole show
News Night with Talat Hussain 18th February 2011

*The link below is the last part of the programe which explains why the police thinks this is not a case of self-defence. The driver of the motor bike was shot by RD as he was trying to run from the scene, RD got out of his car and shot this guy in the back twice which is confirmed by the location of the shells found away from the RD's car belonging to his pistol as well as dozens of witnesses including 2 traffic counstables. RD hmself in his statment to the investigators said that the driver ran away as he opened fire in self-defence.*
Another IMPORTANT point to note is that RD was trying to run from the scene and the traffic counstable gave him a chase on his bike and was arrested after he was made to pull over. RD also claimed in his statment that the passanger on the motor bike cocked his pistol and pointed it towards him due to which he retaliated, police found out that no bullet was loaded in the chamber of the guns in possesion of the 2 dead men. Its a must watch show but all in Urdu... sad for those who do not understand  

Justin.tv - ZemTv.Com - News Night with Talat 2/18/11 - P4


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> So you think the FO granted him immunity by mistake and is trying to cover that up?


There is no evidence the FO granted Davis blanket immunity, at this point.


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> I did not know about these previous incidents and assuming your description of them is correct I agree with you. The repeated failure to expel personnel caught with illegal weapons could only be interpreted as a signal of Pakistani acquiescence if not quiet encouragement.


 
In fact Raymond Davis himself was one of the people stopped with weapons, he was kicked out of Peshawar for this purpose because his activities were suspicious:

A time to re-evaluate our ties with America &#8211; The Express Tribune


> Interestingly, in November 2009 and later in 2010, Davis was caught in restricted military locations in Peshawar and reportedly the Foreign Office verbally asked the US embassy to remove him from Peshawar. Proper interrogation of Davis is essential now for Pakistan to discover the linkages with a range of suspected US covert activities.



He was already suspected of being supportive of terrorists or at least of being a spy and this is a matter of record and now that we know he has made calls to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi - which is stated by the police after reviewing his phone records, it just assures the US - TTP link that has been speculated.

Of course there may be some big misunderstanding and you all will get your time in court

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## TruthSeeker

This case has reached the point that, IMHO, both sides should now let Pakistani justice take it's course. Mr. Davis should never have killed those two men. He was totally wrong in his behavior on many, many levels. And diplomatic immunity should not be used as a cloak to protect scoundrels. The USA should voluntarily waive any claim to diplomatic immunity for Mr. Davis. The US State Department should now content itself with providing Mr. Davis the best legal representation that can be had and let Pakistan's Courts sort out the matter. As far as trading him for Aafia, that could realistically only come after Davis is convicted and sentenced. So, the best way out of this now is for Pakistan to bend over backwards to give Mr. Davis a speedy and *transparently* fair trial and let the chips fall where they may. Mr. Davis deserves all the anguish he is in. He brought it on himself.

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## Pak_Sher

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it should be probed (im sure behind the scenes, it is) why Davis established contacts with banned terrorist organizations
> 
> as per news reports, he's fluent in Pashto and Urdu. Commendable, and shady at the same time.


 
Please go back few pages and you will see the videos ASIM AQUIL have posted and when they confiscated his camera he was photographing Military installtions and the Wagha Border. He looks like a CIA Agent causing trouble in Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

if it is proven that he engaged in espionage, that would have extremely serious ramifications

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## Solomon2

TruthSeeker said:


> The USA should voluntarily waive any claim to diplomatic immunity for Mr. Davis. The US State Department should now content itself with providing Mr. Davis the best legal representatio-


I disagree. I'm tired of the U.S. always being expected to take a bullet just to be nice and save Pakistani officials from the embarrassment of making difficult choices or revealing their own incompetence. I don't think we Americans have this relationship with any other country and it can't be good for Pakistan that its officials keep using Americans as a scape-goat and crutch. The sooner it stops the healthier Pakistanis will be.

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## Areesh

TruthSeeker said:


> This case has reached the point that, IMHO, both sides should now let Pakistani justice take it's course. Mr. Davis should never have killed those two men. He was totally wrong in his behavior on many, many levels. And diplomatic immunity should not be used as a cloak to protect scoundrels. The USA should voluntarily waive any claim to diplomatic immunity for Mr. Davis. The US State Department should now content itself with providing Mr. Davis the best legal representation that can be had and let Pakistan's Courts sort out the matter. As far as trading him for Aafia, that could realistically only come after Davis is convicted and sentenced. So, the best way out of this now is for Pakistan to bend over backwards to give Mr. Davis a speedy and *transparently* fair trial and let the chips fall where they may. Mr. Davis deserves all the anguish he is in. He brought it on himself.


 
At last a sane post. Thanks TruthSeeker.

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## Omar1984

Pak_Sher said:


> Please go back few pages and you will see the videos ASIM AQUIL have posted and when they confiscated his camera he was photographing Military installtions and the Wagha Border. He looks like a CIA Agent causing trouble in Pakistan.


 
He is a spy for sure. Lahore police also found in his cell phone of him making calls to terrorist organizations in Waziristan on Pak-Afghan border when he was in the most eastern city of Pakistan near the Pakistan-India border. Pakistan should not let him go, this man knows too much.

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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> The FO can't legally do that since it isn't the usual part of their process. Take a look at Articles 13, 39, and 41: link


 
Break relations and pull all your people from Pakistan, please.

Anyway its seemingly getting clearer that we'll have to do it for you.

But even from a legal stand point, why do you ignore Article 37??? Which specifies a different rule for members of the "Administrative and Technical Staff" - a term not given by me, but the US embassy.



> Members of the *administrative and technical staff* of the mission, together with members of
> their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or12
> permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29
> to 35, *except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction* of the receiving State specified
> in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties.



Now its not like this has not been posted before, and ignored before. I imagine 99% of you screaming "LA LA LA LA LA" whenever such things are pointed out. 

*According to the Vienna conventions administrative and Technical staff is not immune from judicial proceedings of the receiving state, Aritcle 37 (2)*

So what're you talking about man? What else you got?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Probe Finds Connection Between Davis, Drone Attacks*​


> KARACHI: Investigation teams were astonished to learn about Raymond Daviss alleged connections in North Waziristan, sources told DawnNews.
> 
> Sources have revealed that a GPS chip recovered from Davis was being used in identifying targets for drone attacks in the tribal region.
> 
> It was also learnt during the probe that Davis made upto 12 visits to the tribal areas without informing Pakistani officials.
> 
> The 36- year-old US official was reluctant in giving out information about his visits to the tribal region, sources added.
> 
> The US Embassy officials were exerting pressure on the authorities, asking them not to expose the information received from Davis.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Punjab government has shared the investigation and the possessions recovered from Davis with the federal government, said sources.




Probe finds connection between Davis, drone attacks | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> I disagree. I'm tired of the U.S. always being expected to take a bullet just to be nice and save Pakistani officials from the embarrassment of making difficult choices or revealing their own incompetence. I don't think we Americans have this relationship with any other country and it can't be good for Pakistan that its officials keep using Americans as a scape-goat and crutch. The sooner it stops the healthier Pakistanis will be.


 
The high judiciary in Pakistan has earned a name for its by the book practices.

Btw, the US has demanded other nations waive off immunity when crimes are committed on its soil. So its not like Americans haven't gone scape-goating with crutches on, for you to be so comfortable on that high horse.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Solomon2 said:


> I disagree. I'm tired of the U.S. always being expected to take a bullet just to be nice and save Pakistani officials from the embarrassment of making difficult choices or revealing their own incompetence. I don't think we Americans have this relationship with any other country and it can't be good for Pakistan that its officials keep using Americans as a scape-goat and crutch. The sooner it stops the healthier Pakistanis will be.


And I agree with you there, though I appreciate TS's sentiments on the issue.

Again, this goes back to the main underlying issue, of the duplicity of Pakistan's rulers towards the people they are supposed to be representing, and their deliberate flouting of the law, as well as their deliberate aid and acquiescence to other nations flouting the law in Pakistan.

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## Solomon2

> Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of
> their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or12
> permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29
> to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified


Read carefully, Asim: that's only civil and adminstrative jurisdiction. Admin & tech staff retain immunity from _criminal_ jurisdiction.


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## Awesome

Andross said:


> John kerry said the bottom line is he holds diplomatic status.


 
The idea is to repeat the mantra so many times that it starts to appear as the truth.

The Pakistani FO manual 2010 edition recognizes Administrative and Technical staff as non-diplomatic

The Vienna conventions state that Administrative and Technical Staff does not enjoy full immunity - that is it states in words

"except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State" in Article 37 (2).

The USG, not Pakistan, declared Raymond Davis as Administrative and Technical Staff.

So in conclusion, the lie that anyone who works for the US consulate is immune from judicial proceedings does not hold and it does not translate into having "diplomatic status". It is total rubbish.

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## TruthSeeker

Solomon2 said:


> I disagree. I'm tired of the U.S. always being expected to take a bullet just to be nice and save Pakistani officials from the embarrassment of making difficult choices or revealing their own incompetence. I don't think we Americans have this relationship with any other country and it can't be good for Pakistan that its officials keep using Americans as a scape-goat and crutch. The sooner it stops the healthier Pakistanis will be.


 
Well, Solomon, I disagree with you! So there! We do have this relationship with lot's of other countries, especially ones where we want the "rulers" to do things for us that their "people" do not approve. And, then, there is my favorite counter example for you, the USS Liberty, where we let the Israelis kill and maim hundreds of US sailors without asserting our "diplomatic" right of freedom on the high seas.

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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> Read carefully, Asim: that's only civil and adminstrative jurisdiction. Admin & tech staff retain immunity from _criminal_ jurisdiction.


 
The case of a USG staffer carrying weapons does fall under the purview of Administrative law.


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## Solomon2

TruthSeeker said:


> Well, Solomon, I disagree with you! So there! We do have this relationship with lot's of other countries -


List, please, with supporting examples.



> - then there is my favorite counter example for you, the USS Liberty, where we let the Israelis kill and maim hundreds of US sailors without asserting our "diplomatic" rights of our freedom on the high seas.


You are mistaken but that discussion would be way OT, so I'll just refer you to Michael Oren's book,_ Six Days of War_ for his discussion on the Liberty incident.


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## American Eagle

There are no 47 witnesses. There is only mob hysteria here.


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## Andross

SCENARIOS-Shooting case tests US-Pakistan relations | Reuters


*SCENARIOS-Shooting case tests US-Pakistan relations*


* "The stakes are huge" -- former CIA analyst

* Will government be seen as caving in to US pressure?

* Potential for US settlement with families of slain men


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> There are no 47 witnesses. There is only mob hysteria here.


 
American Eagle has great your word is, it does not negate the fact that these 47 testimonies have been written down, signed and submitted as a charge-sheet to the Lahore High Court.

What have you done?

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## TruthSeeker

Solomon2 said:


> List, please, with supporting examples.


 
My list:

Israel. US veto's of several dozen UN Security Council resolutions to save the Israeli government from it's own incompetence, at the expense of the USA.

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## Solomon2

TruthSeeker said:


> My list:
> 
> Israel. US veto's of several dozen UN Security Council resolutions to save the Israeli government from it's own incompetence, at the expense of the USA.


 
We don't share the same perceptions here. If anything the relationship is _reversed_, with Israel undertaking numerous activities to further U.S. influence: withdrawal from territory occupied in the 1973 war, bombing Saddam's nuclear reactor, and acquiescing to a useless peace process today. You'll have to come up with a more definitive example.


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## VelocuR

*Kaira to replace Fauzia as PPP spokesperson *, due to violated discipline. 

ISLAMABAD: *Both former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi and PPP information secretary Fauzia Wahab were not invited to a meeting of the party&#8217;s frontline leaders on Thursday.*

*Sources said after the meeting of the People&#8217;s Party core committee that it had been decided that Ms Wahab would be replaced by former information minister Qamar Zaman Kaira and Mr Qureshi was unlikely to be considered for a cabinet post. *The recent outbursts by the two over the issue of Raymond Davis, a US national accused of killing two men in Lahore, proved their undoing.

President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani apprised the committee about their meetings with US Senator John Kerry where he was told that the case would be decided on the basis of justice and the principle of sovereign equality.

*&#8220;The meeting also reiterated the position of the party and the government that the strategic partnership and mutually beneficial relations between the two countries should not be allowed to be sacrificed by making them hostage to a single incident,&#8221; *the president&#8217;s spokesman Farhatullah Babar said.

The president informed the committee that he had impressed upon the chairman of the US Senate&#8217;s Foreign Relations Committee that the Davis issue had several dimensions that needed to be taken into consideration by both sides.

He said he had told Senator Kerry that there was an urgent need to proceed with caution, showing respect to the sensibilities of all concerned.

*He said the matter was before a court which had already ruled that it would decide the issue of immunity for Davis.*

The prime minister said he had also suggested that the US needed to take into account the ground realities and acknowledge that the principal stakeholders in the case were the families of those killed and the people of Pakistan.

&#8220;The meeting discussed in depth the political situation with particular reference to coalition politics, recent political developments and the emerging scenario,&#8221; Mr Babar said.

Interior Minister Rehman Malik gave a briefing on the law and order situation and Law Minister Babar Awan briefed the committee on current legal issues.

Although President Zardari said that the former ministers &#8220;who are not in the new cabinet are still PPP&#8217;s assets and the party requires their guidance&#8221;, sources said a recent press conference by Mr Qureshi had closed the doors on him for any cabinet slot.
*
According to the sources, the government had planned to provide details about the status of Davis during the hearing of the case in the court on Thursday, but the former minister&#8217;s assertion that the accused did not have diplomatic immunity had foiled the move. The government sought three-week time to present its view in the court.*

They said the prime minister&#8217;s statement that any decision by the court &#8220;or the heirs of the deceased&#8221; would be acceptable to the government indicated that efforts were being made to placate the victims&#8217; families.
*
The source said Ms Wahab had not been invited to the meeting because she had violated discipline and issued a statement on the Davis issue on Tuesday against the party line.*

&#8220;She was not invited because the matter was to be discussed at the meeting,&#8221; they said.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Waht is the criteria upon which people in US are selected to be appointed as a Diplomat or a counseler in a forighn country. Certinly in the US even there must have been a law which establishes a merit upon which people are assighned to forighn counteries, the bigger question is does davis fit up on that merit of being a diplomat or a consulate worker of the level who can enjoy compleet and blanket immunity...!


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## was

the US is a hydro-carbon thirsty dracula hwo intimidate and invades smaller weaker and defensless countrys.in this case pakistan is being intimidated for immediate release of RD.even if he does not enjoy DI.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> Break relations and pull all your people from Pakistan, please.
> 
> Anyway its seemingly getting clearer that we'll have to do it for you.



Ok Asim, I will agree with your reasoning and the remedy above, if you agree to describing, in a fair and realistic manner, what you see happening if it does indeed come to pass, so that we can discuss it further. 

Let's start with law and order, political continuity, and economic situations for Pakistan, both short and long term, and then see where we go for other areas, specifically the regional situation in Afghanistan and India, again short and long term.

I look forward to a great discussion.


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## r3alist

> Again, this goes back to the main underlying issue, of the duplicity of Pakistan's rulers towards the people they are supposed to be representing, and their deliberate flouting of the law, as well as their deliberate aid and acquiescence to other nations flouting the law in Pakistan.




do you think that this is perhaps not a motivation for the pakistanin politicians to resist capitulation in the raymond davis case - that it would expose their duplicity?


after all, a leopard does not change its spots over night


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Let's start with law and order, political continuity, and economic situations for Pakistan, both short and long term, and then see where we go for other areas, specifically the regional situation in Afghanistan and India, again short and long term.
> 
> I look forward to a great discussion.



Sorry I know its not intended for me but I cant help but notice, why is it that u feel we cant handle India, Afghanistan without US? Afterall we have been dealing with them long before US invaded Afghanistan. Plus no Pak means no war for US in Afghanistan, my opinion suggests it will be easier to control situation viz-a-viz Ind/Afghn in the absense of US. we dont have to put up withsafe havens Indians enjoy under the US umbrella atm. 

Why is you feel that if we break relation with US, we'll just be lost in the world? What good has come out of this relationship with US? a few billion dollars which never trickle down to poor people? I do get ur point that we should be rational about our international relations, but at what cost? I dont want to break relations , that said, I dont want us to be used and abused anymore. Cuz the fact is we have done more than enough for this relationship, and its doing more harm then any good. Thanks.


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## r3alist

Cynic Waheed said:


> Sorry I know its not intended for me but I cant help but notice, why is it that u feel we cant handle India, Afghanistan without US? afterall we have been dealing with them long before US invaded Afghanistan. Why is you feel that if we break relation with US, we'll just be lost in the world? What good has come out of this relationship with US? a few billion dollars which never trickle down to poor people? I do get ur point that we should be rational about our international relations, but at what cost? I dont want to break relations , that said, I dont want us to be used and abused anymore. Cuz the fact is we have done more than enough for this relationship, and its doing more harm then any good. Thanks.


 
the answer to your questions are because he has the wrong flags by his name, they should be two americans flags, hopefully he will change it.


in one sense there is a point about having good relations with the US, and ofcourse one cannot dismiss the USA lightly.

but enough is enough, us interference and interest in our nation has sent pakistan into oblivion.

compare their trade, military and political exchanges with india to what we get and it is clear that the USA regard india as the pre eminent force in s.asia.


therefore we are losing nothing much, this is just scaremongering, he is essentially threatening you and forcing you to servitude, that without the USA pakistan are nothing, so be nice to your masters!

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## Cynic Waheed

^^ thanks realist. Apart from few lines regarding Vcheng, i agree with u completly. I mean yaar, enough is enough. Lets not have this friendship if we cant even utter a word when we are treated like terrorists. Everything US says is right, whatever we say is wrong, jingoism, hurt ego of proud people! Fine, we are not a great country at the mo. If we continue in this path of prepetual slavery, we shall never be one.

Wrt Vcheng, am sure he is as much patriotic abt Pak as we are. But what astonishes me is the constant nonsense such as, oh we will be doomed etc. I mean cmon man US doesnt make the world go round anymore, or does it? How can he keep his cool amid all the tension is truely amazing, I have to admit this. But not when the potential losses outweigh the benefits of this phoney friendship.


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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> Sorry I know its not intended for me but I cant help but notice, why is it that u feel we cant handle India, Afghanistan without US? Afterall we have been dealing with them long before US invaded Afghanistan. Plus no Pak means no war for US in Afghanistan, my opinion suggests it will be easier to control situation viz-a-viz Ind/Afghn in the absense of US. we dont have to put up withsafe havens Indians enjoy under the US umbrella atm.
> 
> Why is you feel that if we break relation with US, we'll just be lost in the world? What good has come out of this relationship with US? a few billion dollars which never trickle down to poor people? I do get ur point that we should be rational about our international relations, but at what cost? I dont want to break relations , that said, I dont want us to be used and abused anymore. Cuz the fact is we have done more than enough for this relationship, and its doing more harm then any good. Thanks.


 
Thank you for your participation in the discussion too, but I would like to wait for Asim to post before I say my thoughts on this.


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Thank you for your participation in the discussion too, but I would like to wait for Asim to post before I say my thoughts on this.


 
Fair enuff mate. Though my discussipn is aimed at u alone, but ill wait. Ta.


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## r3alist

Cynic Waheed said:


> ^^ thanks realist. Apart from few lines regarding Vcheng, i agree with u completly. I mean yaar, enough is enough. Lets not have this friendship if we cant even utter a word when we are treated like terrorists. Everything US says is right, whatever we say is wrong, jingoism, hurt ego of proud people! Fine, we are not a great country at the mo. If we continue in this path of prepetual slavery, we shall never be one.
> 
> Wrt Vcheng, am sure he is as much patriotic abt Pak as we are. But what astonishes me is the constant nonsense such as, oh we will be doomed etc. I mean cmon man US doesnt make the world go round anymore, or does it? How can he keep his cool amid all the tension is truely amazing, I have to admit this. But not when the potential losses outweigh the benefits of this phoney friendship.


 

look, vcheng says the thread is not about him, but throws his weight around as if it is.

secondly his posts are 90% favouring the US position, and he has stockholm syndrome with regards to the US, whilst we all respect the leverage the us has, and its obvious power his mindset of subservience to the us is unconscionable, or at least i would think it is to any self respecting individual, let alone someone claiming to be a pakistani patriot.

i hope you see the substance of my point, and not the airy fairy words which are some are inclined to err towards.

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## VCheng

I find it very easy to ignore personal attacks. 

I am secure in my love for both Pakistan and USA, plain and simple! 

Further, I do take positions with a fairly good though not perfect understanding of all aspects of an issue. I am not blinded by my own prejudices ever for I have worked hard to have none.

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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> I find it very easy to ignore personal attacks.
> 
> I am secure in my love for both Pakistan and USA, plain and simple!
> 
> Further, I do take positions with a fairly good though not perfect understanding of all aspects of an issue. I am not blinded by my own prejudices ever for I have worked hard to have none.



yoda, i have made no personal attacks.

plus i have no prejudices, saying i do is a personal attack in itself, almost all pakistani's implicitly understand that any anger is directed towards the govt and never the american people.

you have made points and when i comprehensively dismiss your points you ignore it and carry on with the same line of thinking, this automatically raises suspicions.

finally, if you do see the bigger picture then share it with people, i am 100% willing to listen to factual and thoughtful analysis that is contrary to mine, instead of talking in riddles and being a headmistress.

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## Usama86

One point that American loyalists and Americans themselves on this forum are not letting go off is that Davis killed in self-defence and the police did not find any evidence on the scene which would accuse Davis of a grave crime. The links below speak the opposite, the police in its investigation has found Davis guilty of cold blooded murder. Those journalist who have got a copy of the 25 page challan tell that it includes the fact that after RD had shot dead the passanger on the bike he then went after the driver who at that point was running away from the scene (on foot) Davis got out of his car and shot him on his back twice to kill him. 47 witnesses include 2 traffic counstables as well. watch NEWS NIGHT WITH TALAT HUSSAIN 18-2-2011. I have posted the link to the last part of the show where the reasons for why the police believe this to be cold blooded murder are given. 

Challan of Davis submitted in court

Police files

Challan of Raymond Davis has been given to the court

Justin.tv - ZemTv.Com - News Night with Talat 2/18/11 - P4


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## r3alist

Usama86 said:


> One point that American loyalists and Americans themselves on this forum are not letting go off is that Davis killed in self-defence and the police did not find any evidence on the scene which would accuse Davis of a grave crime. The links below speak the opposite, the police in its investigation has found Davis guilty of cold blooded murder. Those journalist who have got a copy of the 25 page challan tell that it includes the fact that after RD had shot dead the passanger on the bike he then went after the driver who at that point was running away from the scene (on foot) Davis got out of his car and shot him on his back twice to kill him. 47 witnesses include 2 traffic counstables as well. watch NEWS NIGHT WITH TALAT HUSSAIN 18-2-2011.
> 
> Challan of Davis submitted in court
> 
> Police files
> 
> Challan of Raymond Davis has been given to the court


 

the americans are playing two positions.

firstly he is a diplomat and should be taken back to the US.

second is even if he is not a diplomat he was acting in self defence so its ok if he murdered those two people.

there is no consistency, if the first one is true and you are certain of it then why mention the second aspect.


its disinformaton.

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## Cynic Waheed

r3alist said:


> there is no consistency, if the first one is true and you are certain of it then why mention the second aspect.
> 
> 
> its disinformaton.



Naa, its contingency plan. Plan B shall we call it!


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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> I find it very easy to ignore personal attacks.
> 
> I am secure in my love for both Pakistan and USA, plain and simple!
> 
> Further, I do take positions with a fairly good though not perfect understanding of all aspects of an issue. I am not blinded by my own prejudices ever for I have worked hard to have none.



I dont doubt ur love for my country as I have acknowledged earliar. But just painting the situation with dooms day scenerios alone, to me, dont sound like a 'fairly good' understanding


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## VelocuR

As I mentioned earlier, VCheng is R.Davis' lawyer and he had been paid by US to promote this disinformations. I assure you, US and Pakistan always normal relations in a tough times. 

any beer?


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## mshoaib61

Americans who are demanding immunity for davis,, they should answer first about pakistani diplomat who was kidnapped by fbi in 2005
Ummat Publications


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## r3alist

Cynic Waheed said:


> Naa, its contingency plan. Plan B shall we call it!


 
but exactly, if the first position is 100% correct then why the need for a second position?


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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> I dont doubt ur love for my country as I have acknowledged earliar. But just painting the situation with dooms day scenerios alone, to me, dont sound like a 'fairly good' understanding



Fair enough, I can accept your contention that my understanding does not appear robust to you, but please consider the possibility at least that I may be taking a much broader and longer view of things than others may be at this point in time. I am painting no doomsday scenarios, merely the most likely and plausible outcomes, based on the evidence before me. I also do not expect all to agree with my positions since a diversity of opinions is the mark of a good debate, as the one in this thread in particular and on PDF in general.

And thank you for not doubting my feelings for Pakistan, as well as USA. I am blessed enough that I could feel insulated from the direct effects of what happens in Pakistan, but my loyalty to the land of my birth compels me to speak. Mujhe hukum he kalma-e-bar-haq kehney ka.



RaptorRX707 said:


> As I mentioned earlier, VCheng is R.Davis' lawyer and he had been paid by US to promote this disinformations. I assure you, US and Pakistan always normal relations in a tough times.
> 
> any beer?



And as I mentioned earlier, my positions are as fair as I can make them based on my resources. If you do not agree with them, then that is your right and I will always respect that too.

Would you like me to send you some beer?


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## SekrutYakhni

Asim Aquil said:


> In fact Raymond Davis himself was one of the people stopped with weapons, he was kicked out of Peshawar for this purpose because his activities were suspicious:
> 
> A time to re-evaluate our ties with America &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> He was already suspected of being supportive of terrorists or at least of being a spy and this is a matter of record and now that we know he has made calls to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi -* which is stated by the police after reviewing his phone records, it just assures the US - TTP link that has been speculated.*
> 
> Of course there may be some big misunderstanding and you all will get your time in court


 
Without looking at Israel/Indian aspect, I think that (if) there is any support for TTP by the U.S, it could be justified in a way.
The U.S. wants Pakistan to take action against Haqqani group which is causing trouble for Americans in Afghanistan but Pakistan refused to do it, considering several reasons. In retaliation, the U.S. started to support TTP thugs--A) Maybe to pressurize Pakistan to take action against all groups of Talibans as TTP is famous to kill innocent people or B) To create a wave of terror to further disintegrate the social thread of the society. 

*I can be wrong in my analysis.*


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Usama86 said:


> One point that American loyalists and Americans themselves on this forum are not letting go off is that Davis killed in self-defence and the police did not find any evidence on the scene which would accuse Davis of a grave crime. The links below speak the opposite, the police in its investigation has found Davis guilty of cold blooded murder. Those journalist who have got a copy of the 25 page challan tell that it includes the fact that after RD had shot dead the passanger on the bike he then went after the driver who at that point was running away from the scene (on foot) Davis got out of his car and shot him on his back twice to kill him. 47 witnesses include 2 traffic counstables as well. watch NEWS NIGHT WITH TALAT HUSSAIN 18-2-2011. I have posted the link to the last part of the show where the reasons for why the police believe this to be cold blooded murder are given.
> 
> Challan of Davis submitted in court
> 
> Police files
> 
> Challan of Raymond Davis has been given to the court
> 
> Justin.tv - ZemTv.Com - News Night with Talat 2/18/11 - P4


 
If US would have come out even neutral in the start by saying: please hand over our man and we give you grantee that if we find him guilt he will be punished and discharge and we say sorry to the victims family with compensation. I can bet things would have been different by now. 

But they came out as bulls by saying hand out our men else we will do this to you. they played bad cop first in place of playing good cop.

few months ago I watch a western movie in which Sheriff catches a brother of powerful guy and puts him in the jail and he challenges him to hand over his brother or else his town will get it.


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## SekrutYakhni

On a side note, I just want to share this quote with intelligence operatives of all countries!

_"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."_


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## SekrutYakhni

Posted by me:
_"-A) Maybe to pressurize Pakistan to take action against all groups of Talibans as TTP is famous to kill innocent people"_

*NEW YORK: As a diplomatic standoff between Pakistan and the United States festers, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned on Friday that Pakistan risked major instability at home and a hampered war effort in next-door Afghanistan if it didn&#8217;t implement reforms and stop fomenting anti-American sentiment.*

In a speech at the Asia Society,* Ms Clinton said Pakistani cooperation was critical to the success of the fight against Taliban and Al Qaeda extremists in neighbouring Afghanistan. She also said it was &#8220;no secret that we have not always seen eye to eye with Pakistan&#8221;.*

*&#8220;Pressure from the Pakistani side will help push the Taliban towards the negotiating table and away from Al Qaeda,&#8221; she said.*

In an intense hour long speech, Ms Clinton urged India and Pakistan to continue their talks which began in Thimphu (Bhutan) which she said augured well for peace in the region.

&#8220;Distrust lingers on both sides,&#8221; she said. &#8220;We need to work together carefully to prevent misunderstandings and disagreements from derailing the progress we have made in the past two years.&#8221;

*Relations with Pakistan have plummeted to their lowest point in recent years since the arrest of an American citizen in Lahore.* The employee, Raymond Davis, shot and killed two Pakistani men he says were trying to rob him on Jan 27.

While reviewing President Barack Obama&#8217;s policy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Ms Clinton stressed that the transition from US to Afghan-led security in Afghanistan would &#8220;be formally launched next month, with troop reductions starting in July and continuing based on conditions on the ground. It will be completed by the end of 2014&#8221;.

Special representative

She also formally named Marc Grossman, a former US ambassador to Turkey who served in Pakistan early in his career, as the new Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, replacing Richard Holbrooke who died last December.

Ms Clinton warned Taliban fighters in Afghanistan that they faced a stark choice between war and peace, as US military pressure on them mounted. *&#8220;They cannot defeat us. And they cannot escape this choice.&#8221;*

She reiterated America&#8217;s three-track strategy in Afghanistan: *a military offensive against Al Qaeda and the Taliban; a civilian-led effort to strengthen the Afghan and Pakistani governments, economies and civil societies; and a diplomatic effort to end the Afghan war.
*
She said the US aimed to bolster an Afghan-led effort to split the Taliban from its Al Qaeda allies and reconcile those willing to renounce violence with the Kabul government.

&#8220;In 2001, after 9/11, the Taliban chose to defy the international community and protect Al Qaeda,&#8221; she said.

&#8220;That was the wrong choice, and they have paid a heavy price. Today, the escalating pressure of our military campaign is sharpening a similar decision for the Taliban: break ties with Al Qaeda, give up your arms and abide by the Afghan constitution and you can rejoin Afghan society; refuse and you will continue to face the consequences of being tied to Al Qaeda as an enemy of the international community.&#8221;

US forces are expecting heavy fighting to resume this spring after the annual winter lull.

But Ms Clinton said that the security situation had improved and begun to stabilise, with gains made &#8220;at the village level&#8221;.

&#8220;The momentum of the Taliban insurgents has been blunted and in some places even reversed,&#8221; she said.

She said Al Qaeda remained a &#8220;serious threat&#8221;, but added that the US had given the group&#8217;s allies and sympathisers reason to question the value of the alliance.

Stop fomenting anti-Americanism, Hillary urges Pakistan | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

*Edit:* I just read this news. 

I think that the U.S. government wanted to pressurize Pakistan by different means as they got a ' no action against Haqqani' at the beginning. Maybe they failed to convince Pakistan and that is why they used offensive tactics.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

saad445566 said:


> On a side note, I just want to share this quote with intelligence operatives of all countries!
> 
> _"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."_


 
what has this quote to do with this thread ????????? please explain


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## SekrutYakhni

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> what has this quote to do with this thread ????????? please explain


 
It means that no one should cause trouble in foreign land so everyone can live in peace.
Generally speaking, patriotism kills people.

The great Russians, the innovative British, the French, the German, the Ottoman, the American, the Japanese etc etc
When you expand, you feel proud about it and nations expand because there are patriotic people. Yes, patriotism is good for your country but not so good for your enemy. So, those _'great'_ nations should try to live inside their border.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In one of the clips from DUNYA NEWS that one of our colleagues posted here----the tv anchor states and points to the hand gun in the hand of the dead person lying on the road----.


The other issue in the police reoprt is how pakistani police looks and interprets 'SELF DEFENCE'----now I can understand the stupidity of my police force----police claims that there was lethal force used---indeed there was----police officer claims that the aggressor could have shot the culprit in the legs as the aggressor was a trained shooter.

This statement is the height of incompetence of understanding the significance of self defence---what do pakistanis think----when you point a gun at someone--nothing is going to happen to you----. This thing about shooting someone in the legs to disable him---only happens in the movies----a special forces type is not going to shoot that way---his training is to take the threat down and out----there are no cutesies as the pakistani police inspector mentioned and wanted.

I want to laugh at that joke----but rather I want to cry at the irony of it as well.

Now setting things aside-----any pakistanis have been in the U S for a long time-----truthseeker----solomon2 and american eagle would remember the case of the new york SUBWAY SHOOTER-----guess what happened to him----. Maybe solomon2 can throw some light on it or maybe our friend american eagle can.


If not here is the gist of it-----the subway shooter was a young american man who travelled the subway at the night time after work to get to his home---he had previously been robbed----so this time he packed a gun---when he got jumped by a couple of blacks with guns----he pulled out his gun and shot them both down---tragically both lived----now you might be thinking of a happy ending-----I will let solomon2 finish it off---.



The U S asking to try Davis in america----let us see how that happens----this american soldiers on recce mission sees this 14 years old girl in a street in iraq---he plans with his buddies----they come one days----create a fake encounter---then in front of her eyes---shoot her father---her brothers----her uncles----her little bros and sisters and mom and all the women in the house----then that girl is gang raped by the american soldiers----and then she is shot as well after being raped by the good cross carrying soldiers around their necks ---the soldiers of christ----one of the soldiers who has some consicence left reports the incidence----there is a case and trial----there were thousand of iraqi women girls raped and boys sodomized by the american soldiers----how many have been punished by the american law and given a punishment befitting the crime----none---not a single soldier.


That is not the end------

Was that in the late 80's or 90's----it is italy-------italian skiers are going to the top of the mountain in a gondola---when the wire that is carrying the gondola is cut---the gondola falls down killing around 200 italin skiers-----you know what happened----an american pilot decided to fly through that canyon at an extremely low altitude---that low altitude was restricted as a matter of fact the american pilots were not authorized to fly through that canyon at all-----well guess what happened----the plane flew under the cable-----the tail of the plane struck the cable and cut it cleanly and the pilot never knew that he had become the murderer of 200 people that day.

Against the protests of the italians the pilot was whisked to the U S----there was a court hearing where he was declared innocent.

So---the bottomlinbe is that there are one too many spins in the U S law----it is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary citizen---so pak must do what it wants to-----charge Mr Davis---prosecute him---sentence him and then declare him persona non grata and kick him out to spend the rest of his jail time in the U S and let them decide what to do with him.


Now----another funny thing----the drone strikes have stopped now-----was that Davis who was guiding the strikes from the ground in waziristan---I mean to say that his electronic foot print has been there as well------.


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## ajtr

*Second American Involved in Lahore Shooting Slips Back to U.S.​*
*Driver Who Allegedly Killed a Man Racing to Raymond Davis' Aid And His Passenger No Longer In Pakistan, U.S. Official Says​*
A Pakistani court has demanded the arrest of a second U.S. official in connection with a deadly shootout in Lahore, Pakistan, last month, but that official, as well another American official involved in the incident, have already slipped out of the country and are back on American soil, a senior U.S. official told ABC News.
The American sought for arrest, who the State Department only identified as a member of the U.S. embassy's staff in Islamabad, Pakistan, was behind the wheel when he struck and killed a bystander while racing to the aid of U.S. "technical advisor" Raymond Davis, who is currently detained in Lahore. Davis is accused of gunning down two Pakistani men in the street on Jan. 27 in what the State Department said was self-defense during a "botched robbery."

The driver of the vehicle held the same diplomatic visa as Davis, U.S. officials told ABC News. Since his arrest, the U.S. argued that Davis should be afforded diplomatic immunity as a member of the embassy's "technical and administrative staff" and released.
Authorities in Punjab said they sent five letters to the U.S. Embassy asking that the driver and vehicle be handed over, but have reportedly received no response. It is unclear when the driver and his passenger were spirited out of Pakistan, but a senior U.S. official said it happened soon after the shooting incident.

Davis is still in a high-security detention center in Lahore and is expected to stay there until a court hearing next month, despite repeated demands by the U.S. -- including from President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton -- that he be released immediately. In a court hearing Thursday, a representative of the Pakistani central government said Pakistani officials are still trying to determine whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity.
Victim's Brother Demands Execution for Raymond Davis
Moments after the court issued its ruling Thursday to hold Davis, the brother of one of the shooting victims addressed the media demanding Davis' execution.

"Our demand from the first day is that we want him hanged, nothing other than this," the man said.

The wife of the same man who was shot committed suicide earlier this month, but not before telling local media she wanted Davis' "blood."

After the hearing, Cameron Munter, the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, said he was "disappointed" the Pakistani central government did not certify Davis as a diplomat and release him under diplomatic immunity.

Ever since his arrest, mystery has surrounded the man President Barack Obama called "our diplomat."


In the days after the shooting, the U.S. State Department denied that the man in Pakistani custody was Raymond Davis, despite Pakistani officials, court documents and one source close to Davis saying otherwise. Eventually Davis was revealed to be a member of the embassy's "technical and administrative staff," but the State Department has refused to answer questions about his specific job in Pakistan. When Davis was arrested, he reportedly possessed a loaded gun, GPS equipment, pictures of what Pakistani police called "sensitive areas" of Pakistan, as well as a diplomatic passport.

Public records show Davis has experience with the U.S. Special Forces and runs a small security company that provides "loss prevention specialists," according to the company website which is no longer active.

Complicating matters, several Pakistani officials told ABC News that the men Davis allegedly shot were not small time criminals, but agents of the country's premier intelligence service, the ISI, who had been tracking Davis -- a claim the U.S. government vehemently denies.

Kerry: U.S. Will Open Criminal Investigation Into Shooting
Earlier Wednesday, Sen. John Kerry, chair of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, left Pakistan without Davis after a short trip meant to help smooth over relations between Pakistan and the U.S.

"President Obama and Secretary Clinton have personally asked me to convey to the people of Pakistan our deepest sorrow for the loss of life that occurred there in that tragic incident," Kerry said before leaving the country. "And there is nothing that the United States wants more than to see those kinds of incidents disappear forever in the lives of Pakistanis and in our relationship. I was encouraged today in the meetings that I had in all levels of your government."


Upon landing in the country, Kerry told local media the U.S. Department of Justice would open a criminal investigation into the shooting should Raymond Davis be released.

"I think during the course of Senator Kerry's stay there, we made clear that with such incidents it is practice of the United States government to conduct its own criminal investigation," Crowley told reporters Wednesday. "And we intend to follow that practice here."

ABC News' Luis Martinez contributed to this report.

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## ajtr

*US may increase Pak aid by 100pc if Davis released​*

By Khalid Mustafa
Saturday, February 19, 2011


ISLAMABAD: *Washington has not only linked civil and military aid to Pakistan with the &#8216;respectable&#8217; release of Raymond Davis, the US national and assassin of the two Pakistanis in Lahore, but also has hinted at substantial increase in the aid, may be by 100 percent, under Kerry-Lugar Law from $7.5 billion to $15 billion in five years.*

Pakistan has received $300 million this fiscal year so far. After deducting service charges, the $1.5 billion per annum under Kerry-Lugar Law stands at $1.3 billion out of which $650 million will be used through USAID and the remaining $650 million will be sued by the government. This means that our next budget will highly depend upon Kerry-Lugar Law aid, which is being linked to the release of Davis.

According to a senior official of the Finance Ministry, Washington came up with the carrot and stick policy during the visit of Senator John Kerry to Pakistan. Now according to the reports emanating from Washington, Senator John Kerry, who is now back to the US, is facing criticism from US lawmakers, who are exerting pressure to cut aid to Pakistan if Islamabad does not release Raymond Davis.

&#8220;The US, largest single voting power in the IMF, can also use its influence to give more tough time to Pakistan and in case it happens so, all international financial institutions including World Bank, ADB and other major donor countries may come up with defiance mode and refuse to bail out Pakistan. It is pertinent to mention that World Bank and ADB have already linked their budgetary supports to Pakistan with the letter of comfort,&#8221; unveil background interviews of some of top officials.

Pakistan, which is in dire need for massive budgetary support to make budget for the next fiscal of 2011-12, finds no space to make the budget without the external flows as the incumbent regime has failed to increase its tax net base and its proposed RGST has met with failure.

The main political parties have not permitted the government to increase the petroleum prices from December 2010 onwards owing to which the national exchequer has absorbed the hit of Rs13 billion. Likewise, the power tariff subsidy, which has reached Rs95 billion, is estimated to end at Rs139 billion by the end of the current fiscal against the budgeted target of Rs30 billion. 

The huge amount which the government is estimated to pump into the loss making public sector enterprises are hovering around Rs300 billion and if the government fails to take any tax measure from March 1, 2011 till June 2011, then the power deficit will certainly surge up to somewhere between 8-8.5 percent. The government has already slashed the development budget by Rs100 billion from Rs280 billion to Rs180 billion, but the financial gurus in the Finance Ministry have decided to contain the financial releases for development projects not more than Rs140 billion. This means that the development budget cut stands at Rs140 billion.

Meanwhile, a proposed meeting between IMF and Pakistan to review the economic outlook of the country scheduled from February 23-24 for seven to eight days in Dubai stands postponed because of the ongoing talks with the PML-N on 10-point reforms agenda and some logistics problems, a senior official told The News.

Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh held a meeting here on Friday evening with regard to a review meeting on economy with IMF in Dubai, but he decided that the meeting would now take place keeping in view the reaction of PML-N after whatsoever results of the February 22 meeting with the PML-N on 10 point agenda.

Both the government and the PML-N will hold the 10th round of talks on reforms agenda in terms of the implementation as the PML-N has decided not to further brainstorm on any of the items of the agenda in the next meeting as it is only interested in mechanism to implement the decisions taken so far on the issues included in the agenda.

The government will fix the next day for a review meeting with the IMF after gauging the PML-N reaction over the result after the February 22 meeting. However, the next meeting will take place some time by the end of the last week of the current month.


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## Awesome

The US has acted with criminal intent by aiding the driver who killed Ibad to escape.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> Ok Asim, I will agree with your reasoning and the remedy above, if you agree to describing, in a fair and realistic manner, what you see happening if it does indeed come to pass, so that we can discuss it further.
> 
> Let's start with law and order, political continuity, and economic situations for Pakistan, both short and long term, and then see where we go for other areas, specifically the regional situation in Afghanistan and India, again short and long term.
> 
> I look forward to a great discussion.


I'm not one to hang the government before it actually commits a crime. As representatives of Pakistan, I'm cautiously optimistic that the case will go to trial. From what I've read about the evidence against Davis, I'm expecting a conviction not an acquittal.

What will happen if the Government betrays its own country is hard to say. I'm expecting a massive uprising, removal of the government, a quick and haphazard end to the War on Terror collaboration with America and possibly limiting the American mission in Pakistan down to a sensible level.

I'm the least bit in the mood to entertain the usual panicky OMG OMG OMG attitude of our people about what the US would do if there is a conviction. The right thing is the right thing and will always remain so. A person commits murder, he must pay for it. A state engages in terrorist activities, it must pay for it. At that point the US can point nuclear weapons at Pakistan but we have to just stare them down.

Till we don't stop acting like a phattu nation, we will continue to see terrorist attacks like the one on Salman Taseer, because of all this footing we're giving off a message loud and clear, in Pakistan if you don't agree with something, no need for the judiciary, just use brute force and we Pakistanis would bow down.

After Taseer was killed the first response of the usual "Elite class" was to cower down and not openly denounce that monstrous act. We're a phattu nation, scared of America, scared of Mullahs, scared of freedom, scared of justice.

So focus upon what you need to do, and not worry about "hum yeh kareinge, America woh karega" attitude that has been a signature response to everything in Pakistan for several decades now.

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## Awesome

VCheng said:


> I am secure in my love for both Pakistan and USA, plain and simple!


I'm very secure about my admiration for America and its people as well, as its founded upon the good the nation does. I don't need to be appeasing to America's every wrong whim to show my admiration for them.

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## charlietophits

ajtr said:


> *Second American Involved in Lahore Shooting Slips Back to U.S.​*
> *Driver Who Allegedly Killed a Man Racing to Raymond Davis' Aid And His Passenger No Longer In Pakistan, U.S. Official Says​*
> 
> "President Obama and Secretary Clinton have personally asked me to convey to the people of Pakistan our deepest sorrow for the loss of life that occurred there in that tragic incident," Kerry said before leaving the country. "And there is nothing that the United States wants more than to see those kinds of incidents disappear forever in the lives of Pakistanis and in our relationship. I was encouraged today in the meetings that I had in all levels of your government."
> 
> 
> Upon landing in the country, Kerry told local media the U.S. Department of Justice would open a criminal investigation into the shooting should Raymond Davis be released.
> 
> "I think during the course of Senator Kerry's stay there, we made clear that with such incidents it is practice of the United States government to conduct its own criminal investigation," Crowley told reporters Wednesday. "And we intend to follow that practice here."
> 
> ABC News' Luis Martinez contributed to this report.


 

I think that now first of all America should bring manslaughter charges against the diplomat who had run over an innocent bystander. After America does that and gives a suitable sentence, then we can maybe think of handing over davis, but not before

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## Awesome

charlietophits said:


> I think that now first of all America should bring manslaughter charges against the diplomat who had run over an innocent bystander. After America does that and gives a suitable sentence, then we can maybe think of handing over davis, but not before


 
You raise an excellent point, John Kerry said Davis would be tried in the US, lets see the US extradite this Pakistani national or try him in the US, it can be a litmus test to know what can be expected from the US.

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## Omar1984

ajtr said:


> *US may increase Pak aid by 100pc if Davis released​*


 
Abhi thak koi Kerry-Lugar paisa ayah Pakistan mein?

Carrot and stick and U.S. is making Pakistan the donkey.


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## Rig Vedic

Solomon2 said:


> Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of
> their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or12
> permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29
> to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified
> in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties.
> 
> 
> 
> Read carefully, Asim: that's only civil and adminstrative jurisdiction. Admin & tech staff retain immunity from _criminal_ jurisdiction.
Click to expand...


Any reply to this?


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## Aslan

Rig Vedic said:


> Any reply to this?


 
Try reading the posts from other members with open mind u will find the answer that you are looking for.

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## Awesome

Rig Vedic said:


> Any reply to this?


 
Go back and check, it has already been done and in my opinion there are several elements that bring the matter into the purview of Pakistan's Administrative Law, however that determination too will be done by the courts.


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## DV RULES

*Punjab fears Davis may be killed  even by CIA*


Saturday, February 19, 2011

ISLAMABAD: Apprehensions about a possible attempt on the life of Raymond Davis, including even by Americans themselves, have compelled the authorities in Lahore to boost his security and keep him at some distance from the US officials as well.
Fearing that the high profile prisoner may be killed, extraordinary security measures have been undertaken. These measures include limiting physical contact of Davis with even US officials and diplomats.
According to official sources, a directive has been issued to strictly check the food provided to the American killer. A food committee has been constituted, which would ensure that he is not provided poisoned food in the jail, a source said.
The source disclosed that the jail authorities had also been directed not to allow Davis any food from outside, including one sent by the US Consulate. Even chocolates, brought by the US officials, would not be provided to Davis, the source said, adding that surveillance cameras had also been installed zeroing in on Davis in the Kot Lakhpat Jail.
We were asked to remove the surveillance cameras, installed to constantly monitor Davis, but we declined to do so because it is critical for his security, the source said, explaining, We cant take any risk, we cant rule out any possibility, we cant afford to be lenient in any manner.
Additionally, it has also been decided to avoid physical contact between Davis and US officials, who visit him as part of consular access facility allowed to him. His visitors would now be allowed to interact with him from across a glass wall, as it happens in the West and the US.
The authorities seriously apprehend that anyone, including US intelligence agencies, might try to kill the man, who despite being a technical assistant has the kind of importance that President Obama had to seek his early release and influential Senator John Kerry rushed to Pakistan and met all the important figures here to take him back to the United States as soon as possible.
Officials here wonder as to what was so special about Raymond Davis that Washington has simply panicked after his arrest. It is said that his activities, his actions, his extraordinary marksmanship, his possessions, including sophisticated weapon, ammunition, GPS, etc, and his physical build-up, show he is not what he claims to be. Why the United States is so desperate to get him released immediately, the source asked.
US Embassy Spokesperson Courtney Beale, when asked about the growing apprehensions of Pakistani authorities about the security of Davis and that even suspicions centred around US intelligence agencies, said, This is ridiculous, and a mere conspiracy theory.
The US would never ever want any of its diplomats to be killed, she said, adding that those apprehending such an act from the United States, do not need to fear this. Already, the Punjab government has deployed multiple security cordons, including that of Rangers, at the Kot Lakhpat Jail to pre-empt a possible Hollywood-style sting operation by the US forces to get Raymond Davis released.
The Punjab authorities were apprehending that in sheer frustration, the Americans could conduct a sting operation. Thus they had taken all security measures. The security of Davis has been increased while keeping in mind all possibilities, including an assault on him, a terrorist attack and even a strike by the US commandos to get him forcibly released or killed.


Punjab fears Davis may be killed  even by CIA

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## VCheng

AA: I can respect your point of view without agreeing with it, but this is a watershed event no doubt, whatever the outcome. Let's see what happens.

(Thank you for both of your posts above.)


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## r3alist

> AA: I can respect your point of view without agreeing with it,




jeez, do you get paid for typing that out, some things are implicit.


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## JonAsad

DV RULES said:


> *Punjab fears Davis may be killed &#8212; even by CIA*
> 
> 
> 
> Punjab fears Davis may be killed &#8212; even by CIA



I would like that to happen-- One way or another- he should be punished for his acts of terrorism-


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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> jeez, do you get paid for typing that out, some things are implicit.



Of course, I also respect YOUR point of view too, no matter how wrong, childish, deluded or confrontational it might be, without agreeing with it either. 

(Wow, that must get me some more money so I had to type it, right?  )


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## r3alist

Glorious Resolve said:


> I would like that to happen-- One way or another- he should be punished for his acts of terrorism-


 
petty fanaticism.

to quote obama "there is a larger principle at stake" - and for pakistan its about catching and CORRECTLY prosecuting a blackwater type.


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## r3alist

VCheng said:


> Of course, I also respect YOUR point of view too, no matter how wrong, childish, deluded or confrontational it might be, without agreeing with it either.
> 
> (Wow, that must get me some more money so I had to type it, right?  )


 


errr reread what you just wrote, there is no respect there. 

just a bizarre cyber persona.

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## VCheng

r3alist said:


> errr reread what you just wrote, there is no respect there.
> 
> just a bizarre cyber persona.



LOL! You see, that is the difference between *implicit *and *explicit*. 

BTW, my persona is the same in the real and cyberworlds: BIZARRE only to some.

Anyway, like I have said before, let's remain on topic.

The driver and other occupant of the car flew out with Senator Kerry on his return. Was this fact hidden from the administration in Islamabad, or was it done with their implicit or explicit co-operation?


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## Aslan

VCheng said:


> The driver and other occupant of the car flew out with Senator Kerry on his return. Was this fact hidden from the administration in Islamabad, or was it done with their implicit or explicit co-operation?


 
Well what do you think is the answer to that, I am sure that there are still checks and balances in place when a foreign dignitary leaves the country the people are checked. So definitely the central thugs were explicit in the crime. 

Now for Kerrys assurances about trying davis in the US, how can he be trusted when he himself helped some wanted murderers escape the country.


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## VCheng

Aslan said:


> Well what do you think is the answer to that, I am sure that there are still checks and balances in place when a foreign dignitary leaves the country the people are checked. So definitely the central thugs were explicit in the crime.
> 
> Now for Kerrys assurances about trying davis in the US, how can he be trusted when he himself helped some wanted murderers escape the country.



Fair point, but then again, are not the Pakistani authorities doing the same thing?

Given Mrs. Clinton's recent speech and the appointment of Grossman as Holbrooke's formal replacement, there are bound to be some pretty definitive steps taken soon that will move the process forward, willingly or reluctantly, but it will move forward.


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## greatsequence

*Sectary information Pakistan Peoples party (PPP) Fauzia Wahab has resigned from her party office on Saturday.

Talking to media here Wahab said that the statement regarding Raymond Davis was personal her view adding that she had a proud for being a part of PPP.

She said that she would continue to work as a worker for party.

Fauzia Wahab resigns from party office | AAJ News

*


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## VelocuR

I think, ISI agents MUST interrogate Davis sooon before release or assassinated by CIA!


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## VCheng

RaptorRX707 said:


> I think, ISI agents MUST interrogate Davis sooon before release or assassinated by CIA!



What do you think the odds are that ISI is already an integral part of the whole affair?


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## Rana4pak




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## Awesome

AFP: Pakistan spokeswoman resigns over US gunman

Fauzia Wahab apparently quit since she didn't want to testify in court as the Information Secretary and now says her comments were at a personal capacity. Why are the American loyalists so court-phobic? American stance has been "Lets do it all hush hush".

Anyway, they are in a retreat mode, time to strike!

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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> AFP: Pakistan spokeswoman resigns over US gunman
> 
> Fauzia Wahab apparently quit since she didn't want to testify in court as the Information Secretary and now says her comments were at a personal capacity. Why are the American loyalists so court-phobic? American stance has been "Lets do it all hush hush".
> 
> Anyway, *they are in a retreat mode, time to strike!*



As long as you are prepared for the inevitable counterstrike, please go for it!


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## r3alist

Why would we receive a counterstrike from an ally in the pursuit of justice and law???

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## WAQAS119

*ISLAMABAD: The US Consulate&#8217;s driver accused of crushing a Pakistani citizen to death while driving a vehicle to assist Raymond Davis, has reached the United States, television reports quoted American media as saying.*
Davis case: Driver who ran over Ibad reaches US | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

Now, was that _driver_ also enjoying blanket immunity because he is an American? A simple driver? A test case now to judge whole scenario! Will he face trial in US? _*No!*_ 
or if the above news item is just an propaganda as has always been the case with Pakistani media atleast according to Solomon2 then will US show respect for Pakistan's Law and hand him over to Pakistan to try him?

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## Cynic Waheed

VCheng said:


> Fair enough, I can accept your contention that my understanding does not appear robust to you, but please consider the possibility at least that I may be taking a much broader and longer view of things than others may be at this point in time. I am painting no doomsday scenarios, merely the most likely and plausible outcomes, based on the evidence before me. I also do not expect all to agree with my positions since a diversity of opinions is the mark of a good debate, as the one in this thread in particular and on PDF in general.
> 
> And thank you for not doubting my feelings for Pakistan, as well as USA. I am blessed enough that I could feel insulated from the direct effects of what happens in Pakistan, but my loyalty to the land of my birth compels me to speak. Mujhe hukum he kalma-e-bar-haq kehney ka.








Loyalty to the land of birth is understandable, but not when that country is at wrong. I, myself was born and bred in a middle eastern country, But that does not mean that I start defending That country in a conflict when its actually not on the right side of law. I would go as far as sayin that you hold a tremendous opprotunity as an american pakistani to further the interests of the poor bleeding people of ur descency. Remember when people like you (american pakistanis) try to bomb time square, its pakistan thats blamed.. An american of 'Pakistani' descendent! Why is it not an american? Why do we have to pay the price of something you americans do in that country?


I find it insulting that American Pakistani's wont take a stand for Pakistan just because of their love for the land they are born in. If even you wont speak for us then who will? If you wont try and persuade ur american people how we should be treated and respected then who would? Up till now I have always had a deep sense of respect for our overseas pakistanis as I always maintained it is good that we have a voice in that country. But hearing people like you, Im begining to think, if amerian/british pakistani people really bothered about us at all? Atleast it doesnt show. Should you not question ur authorities that 3 people have died, atleast one of them is truely innocent, as an American how do you u feel about this? Should you not say, hang on a minute, why are we protecting the driver of that car who killed someone for no reason (assuming you take it that the others were robers, atleast the third wasnt). 

Am not very articulate in my words bit i hope you understand the bottomline Im trying to justify here. Thanks.

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## TruthSeeker

My country, the USA, often makes a point that it greatly regrets that civilians are sometimes killed during its operations in places like Waziristan or Afghanistan or Iraq or Yemen or Lebanon. We call such regrettable deaths: "collateral damage". So, now Mr. Davis kills two and someone else, unknown, from our Embassy, kills another. Regrettable collateral damage our diplomats might say. So, I think Pakistan should turn to the USA and say: "Well, we are very, very sorry, but Mr. Davis is now collateral damage also. He must suffer the consequences of his incompetence. If he dies or must spend the rest of his life in a Pakistani prison, well, c'est-la guerre ....Collateral damage happens to Pakistanis, you surely know that! And now, here, you see, collateral damage happens to Americans as well. So sorry, but we can't help it. The rule of law has its consequences. "

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## RescueRanger

TruthSeeker said:


> My country, the USA, often makes a point that it greatly regrets that civilians are sometimes killed during its operations in places like Waziristan or Afghanistan or Iraq or Yemen or Lebanon. We call such regrettable deaths: "collateral damage". So, now Mr. Davis kills two and someone else, unknown, from our Embassy, kills another. Regrettable collateral damage our diplomats might say. So, I think Pakistan should turn to the USA and say: "Well, we are very, very sorry, but Mr. Davis is now collateral damage also. He must suffer the consequences of his incompetence. If he dies or must spend the rest of his life in a Pakistani prison, well, c'est-la guerre ....Collateral damage happens to Pakistanis, you surely know that! And now, here, you see, collateral damage happens to Americans as well. So sorry, but we can't help it. The rule of law has its consequences. "


 
I wish i could shake your hand for your blunt honesty... God Bless.

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## VCheng

Cynic Waheed said:


> Loyalty to the land of birth is understandable, but not when that country is at wrong. I, myself was born and bred in a middle eastern country, But that does not mean that I start defending That country in a conflict when its actually not on the right side of law. I would go as far as sayin that you hold a tremendous opprotunity as an american pakistani to further the interests of the poor bleeding people of ur descency. Remember when people like you (american pakistanis) try to bomb time square, its pakistan thats blamed.. An american of 'Pakistani' descendent! Why is it not an american? Why do we have to pay the price of something you americans do in that country?



As an American with Pakistani origins, I try every single day to be an ambassador for Pakistan. But doing that does not mean fiery speeches or blind support. It means a whole lot more Sir, to excel in deeds and character and so many more intagibles, before people around you trust you enough to start being influenced in a positive way.



Cynic Waheed said:


> I find it insulting that American Pakistani's wont take a stand for Pakistan just because of their love for the land they are born in. If even you wont speak for us then who will? If you wont try and persuade ur american people how we should be treated and respected then who would? Up till now I have always had a deep sense of respect for our overseas pakistanis as I always maintained it is good that we have a voice in that country. But hearing people like you, Im begining to think, if amerian/british pakistani people really bothered about us at all? Atleast it doesnt show. Should you not question ur authorities that 3 people have died, atleast one of them is truely innocent, as an American how do you u feel about this? Should you not say, hang on a minute, why are we protecting the driver of that car who killed someone for no reason (assuming you take it that the others were robers, atleast the third wasnt).



But Sir I AM taking a stand in support of Pakistan. It is just that it is more subtle and deeper than mere "Hang the Spy!" rhetoric that many are simply incapable of appreciating. I am trying to avoid the inevitably disastrous consequences for Paksitan that many simply refuse to believe due to their unjustified bravado. Is that not helping Pakistan? May be not according to some here, but still as best as I can make it.

The process of questioning and even changing US foreign policy is nothing like you might imagine. The effective route passes through the roots of political power, in district and local party meetings, in fund raisers and participating in the political process. While I am also doing that, it is a long way before our voice is heard, but I have no doubt that it will be heard in due course. However, this will be heard only if we participate in the political setup according to established rules, not by triyng to blow up Times Square.



Cynic Waheed said:


> Am not very articulate in my words bit i hope you understand the bottomline Im trying to justify here. Thanks.



I thank you for your attempt to communicate with me positively, and I hope that my reply makes sense to you as well. I look forward to more discussion. If that is off topic for this thread, we can take it to a new thread.

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## Cynic Waheed

Vcheng, thanks for replying back so promptly. Im gna get back on this as soon as I can get back home. Iphone is not the friendliest phone for def.pk. And I dont think there is a need for another thread as we are still discussing in relation to the same case. Plus we have to pass these three weeks dont we?


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## Mutee

GOP will release him in three weeks


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## Solomon2

MastanKhan said:


> long time-----truthseeker----solomon2 and american eagle would remember the case of the new york SUBWAY SHOOTER-----guess what happened to him----. Maybe solomon2 can throw some light on it or maybe our friend american eagle can. If not here is the gist of it-----the subway shooter was a young american man who travelled the subway at the night time after work to get to his home---he had previously been robbed----so this time he packed a gun---when he got jumped by a couple of blacks with guns----he pulled out his gun and shot them both down---tragically both lived----now you might be thinking of a happy ending-----I will let solomon2 finish it off---.


I believe you are thinking of the Bernard Goetz case a quarter-century back. Goetz, who had been previously robbed on the subway, shot four _unarmed_ men who surrounded him and asked him for money. Charged with numerous crimes including murder, all were dismissed by the jury save the illegal weapons charge. One of his victims did win a multi-million dollar judgment in a civil case, but after Goetz attack violence in New York City began to decline.

We had a similar incident in my home town back in the early 90s: A jeweler who had been previously robbed was robbed again, but this time he chased after the robber and shot him and his driver point-blank as they attempted to escape in his car. The jury refused to convict the jeweler. link The result - quite unforeseen - has been that instead of two jewelers in downtown there are now at least ten, including one prominent diamond retailer. link



> there were thousand of iraqi women girls raped and boys sodomized by the american soldiers


No. Oh, there were rumors that would happen before the invasion, but the reality was very different: the few miscreants were punished as criminals, and Iraqis lost any fear they might have had of such things. I don't think it wasn't even used by Iraqi insurgents as propaganda inside Iraq because everyone could see it was false. (Outside Iraq was another matter.)



> So---the bottomlinbe is that there are one too many spins in the U S law----it is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary citizen---so pak must do what it wants to-----charge Mr Davis---prosecute him---


It doesn't have to do that; Pakistan could, if it applies its resources, pursue Davis in U.S. criminal or civil courts.


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## Developereo

TruthSeeker said:


> So, I think Pakistan should turn to the USA and say: "Well, we are very, very sorry, but Mr. Davis is now collateral damage also. He must suffer the consequences of his incompetence. If he dies or must spend the rest of his life in a Pakistani prison, well, c'est-la guerre ....Collateral damage happens to Pakistanis, you surely know that! And now, here, you see, collateral damage happens to Americans as well. So sorry, but we can't help it. The rule of law has its consequences. "


 
More realistically, Davis will be released.
But the other 500 Davises roaming around Pakistan may become victims of 'accidents'.


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## Solomon2

r3alist said:


> the americans are playing two positions. firstly he is a diplomat and should be taken back to the US. second is even if he is not a diplomat he was acting in self defence so its ok if he murdered those two people...its disinformaton.


Don't say "the americans" and don't distort. Every U.S. official from Obama down says Davis has full immunity. It is only Pakistani officials who claim partial immunity, and I am pointing out that even if Pakistani officials believe that Davis had only the weaker "consular" immunity (highly unlikely for a security man) he _still_ should have been released from police custody the moment police on the scene determined that it was probably self-defense because that is what the consular treaty prescribes; Davis could only be called back to court after a "final" determination had been made.


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## Solomon2

Asim Aquil said:


> The US has acted with criminal intent by aiding the driver who killed Ibad to escape.


 


WAQAS119 said:


> Now, was that _driver_ also enjoying blanket immunity because he is an American? A simple driver? A test case now to judge whole scenario! Will he face trial in US? or if the above news item is just an propaganda as has always been the case with Pakistani media atleast according to Solomon2 then will US show respect for Pakistan's Law and hand him over to Pakistan to try him?


We've heard a lot less about this driver. In some ways it's more interesting. Everyone is keeping mum. We don't even know if the driver is an American. 

In both cases the underlying question is the same: how can the Pakistani courts justify their jurisdiction in the face of multiple treaties denying them such?


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## Solomon2

Sohni Dharti said:


> More realistically, Davis will be released.
> But the other 500 Davises roaming around Pakistan may become victims of 'accidents'.


 That's why it isn't enough to simply release Davis; Pakistani officials should attempt to explain what diplomatic immunity means to the people and even attempt to pursue the Davis affair in U.S. courts.


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## VCheng

The good news is that cooler heads seem to be regaining the upper hand on BOTH sides:

from: Davis spat: US makes moves to repair relations | Newspaper | DAWN.COM



*Davis spat: US makes moves to repair relations*

ISLAMABAD: *The United States has revived its high-level engagement with Pakistan after keeping it suspended for almost a fortnight because of the impasse over immunity for its jailed staffer Raymond Davis. 

Observers interpreted the resumption of contacts as an attempt by the US to tone down the rhetoric so that prospects for a settlement through blood money or some other &#8216;out of the box solution&#8217; got a boost.*

*Pressure from extremist and rightwing political groups on the bereaved families for spurning any compensation offer, however, remains the sticking point, even though both sides have largely agreed to work together towards ending the ominous stalemate, according to sources.*

The resumption of contacts was marked by the visit of a &#8216;junior&#8217; US Congressional delegation, led by Senator Robert Corker, a member of the Senate committee on foreign relations. Other legislators in his delegation included members of the committees on armed services and budget.

*Marc Grossman, the newly-appointed US Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, would also be visiting Pakistan in the first week of next month*. But, more importantly,* the Americans have reaffirmed their commitment to deliver on the pledges for economic and security assistance*.

The reset in Pak-US ties, which many had believed to have reached their nadir during the diplomatic spat over immunity for Davis, followed a visit to Islamabad last week by John Kerry, the influential chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee. *Mr Kerry&#8217;s trip was described by both sides as a &#8220;relationship saving&#8221; mission instead of what was widely tipped as an attempt to save Davis*.

Both sides, a top diplomatic source revealed, had during Senator Kerry&#8217;s visit *agreed on the need for sending out feel-good messages to ensure a solution. &#8220;Public messaging has changed for the better and would become even better in coming days,&#8221; *a Pakistani diplomat told Dawn.

*Things now appear to be moving according to the step-by-step approach agreed between the two sides during Mr Kerry&#8217;s visit*.

The Americans realise that some &#8216;out of the box&#8217; solution would have to be found for an issue that had taken to its peak an already high anti-Americanism in Pakistan, the source said. &#8220;The government&#8217;s request for more time from the Lahore High Court to testify on Davis&#8217;s status is meant to buy more space for the US to settle the issue with the heirs of the victims.&#8221;

Another source at the delegation&#8217;s meeting with Prime Minister Gilani disclosed that the tone of American functionaries had changed greatly.

*Mr Gilani, during an interaction with the American legislators, welcomed &#8220;the positive messaging emanating from both sides and emphasised that these should continue and go beyond the Davis incident in order to build upon the strategic partnership as well as the trust and confidence between the two countries*&#8221;.

The prime minister expressed the hope that the US would remain focussed on shared objectives of defeating terrorists and extremists, besides restoration of peace and stability in Afghanistan.

While doing so, the premier stressed the US should not allow any irritant to distract them.

A common aspect of Congressmen&#8217;s meetings with both President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani was that they discussed a wide range of issues, instead of focusing just on Davis. Moreover, there was a renewed acknowledgement of Pakistan&#8217;s sacrifices in the war on terror and the importance of cementing the strategic relationship &#8211; some of the components in relations that were lost in the vociferous debate over immunity for Davis.

THE SPOILERS: Although it looks very clear that after weeks of standoff, both countries are now seriously trying to defuse the situation, circles close to the government are wary of the posture taken by right wingers and militant groups.

Prime Minister Gilani, during Mr Kerry&#8217;s visit, had floated the idea of settling the dispute through blood money and efforts had been initiated in that direction. Right wing political groups and militant elements, sources say, are now creating hurdles by pressuring the bereaved families to insist on Davis&#8217;s trial and reject any compensation offer.

*The Americans have also raised the matter at the highest level with the Pakistan government. The US embassy, in one of its latest communications, identified groups blocking the reparation effort and, according to one source, the Lashkar-i-Taiba is among them*.


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> That's why it isn't enough to simply release Davis; Pakistani officials should attempt to explain what diplomatic immunity means to the people and even attempt to pursue the Davis affair in U.S. courts.


 
Agreed, if the US agrees to have its 'diplomats' behave as such.

Diplomats don't go around making clandestine calls to terrorist organizations, photographing military installations and driving around illegally with even more illegal weapons.


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## Awesome

Solomon2 said:


> We've heard a lot less about this driver. In some ways it's more interesting. Everyone is keeping mum. We don't even know if the driver is an American.
> 
> In both cases the underlying question is the same: how can the Pakistani courts justify their jurisdiction in the face of multiple treaties denying them such?


 
The Pakistani court has already given the order to have him arrested as per law. Pretty much that means do not raid the Consulate, but if you can nab him at any time out of the consulate, do it.


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## VCheng

Asim Aquil said:


> The Pakistani court has already given the order to have him arrested as per law. Pretty much that means do not raid the Consulate, but if you can nab him at any time out of the consulate, do it.



How was his identity established? In any case, this order is several days late. At the time the driver accompanied Senator Kerry out of Pakistan, there was no order against him, and one cannot believe that his departure was not facilitated by Pakistani authorities.


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## TruthSeeker

Sohni Dharti said:


> Agreed, if the US agrees to have its 'diplomats' behave as such.
> 
> Diplomats don't go around making clandestine calls to terrorist organizations, photographing military installations and driving around illegally with even more illegal weapons.


 
Exactly!! Raymond Davis is not an example for ANY of my country's diplomats to follow. Hillary Clinton should let him twist in the Pakistani wind as a lesson to any other "cowboy diplomats" that we may have stationed in Pakistan, or even Italy, for that matter. Our diplomats should be read the riot act: If you can't do the job *diplomatically*, then you are not a diplomat!!!!! Blowing two people away using an illegal weapon, on a public street, is NOT diplomatic!!! I am really, really tired of all the American energy being expended in an effort to save this guy's a$$! Hillary, he is not worth it!!!

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## DV RULES

*Raymond Davis linked to CIA*


February 20, 2011

LAHORE &#8211; Raymond Davis, the American who killed two innocent Pakistanis in the provincial metropolis on January 27, had links to the CIA, confirmed sources in the country&#8217;s premier intelligence agency.
ISI sources told The Nation that the conduct of the CIA around the tragic incident has &#8220;virtually thrown the partnership into question&#8221;. They said: &#8220;Irrespective of the commonality of objective in the war on terror, it is hard to predict if the relationship will ever get back to the level it was prior to the Davis episode. The onus of not stalling the relationship between the two agencies now squarely lies on the CIA.&#8221;
To a question, the sources said: &#8220;The ISI and the CIA enjoy a professional relationship that has grown stronger over the years. There have been ups and downs, but to say that the ties are the worst since 9/11 would be incorrect. Neither are the ties alarming. Pakistan is doing all that is within its means and capacity to combat the menace of terrorism and our track record speaks for itself.&#8221;
About the drone attacks that have killed hundreds over the past months, the sources said these attacks come under &#8220;an autonomous CIA operation and Pakistan or the ISI has never provided any target information for drone strikes.&#8221;
The sources rejected the misperception fuelled by TV talk shows that information about the targets was being provided by Pakistan. They put to rest aspersions that drone attacks came to a halt after the Davis episode because Pakistan had stopped providing information about targets.
To another question, the sources said: &#8220;Pakistan is at present fully engaged in operations against the Taliban in South Waziristan and does not have the wherewithal or the capacity to undertake a simultaneous operation in North Waziristan, which could only be tackled once gains in the South have been consolidated.&#8221;



Raymond Davis linked to CIA | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


*Davis had ID card of US consulate in Peshawar*

February 20, 2011

National

Davis had ID card of US consulate in Peshawar
Updated at 0600 PST Sunday, February 20, 2011

[Davis had ID card of US consulate in Peshawar]
LAHORE: The Identity Card recovered from US double murder suspect, Raymond Davis, who killed two innocent Pakistani citizens in a busy market in Lahore, was of US consulate in Peshawar instead of Lahore, Geo News reported Sunday.

The ID card represents Raymond Davis being employee of US consulate in Peshawar in instead of Lahore consulate, sources said.

The US consulate number mentioned on the ID card is 4819151, sources claimed.

It is pertinent to mention here that US man Raymond Davis is currently being tried in Lahore High Court (LHC) under charges of killing two innocent Pakistani citizens in a busy market, Mazang Chowrangi, in Lahore.

Later, while the suspect was trying to flee the crime scene so a US consulate vehicle came to his rescue, which trampled to death another man who had come in way.

Davis, before court, said that he had killed two men in an act of self-defence.

US government has been pressing Pakistan since the heinous crime was committed to release Raymond Davis under pretext of diplomatic immunity. 


Davis had ID card of US consulate in Peshawar

Urdu News

http://ejang.jang.com.pk/2-20-2011/Karachi/pic.asp?picname=3631.gif

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## DV RULES

*US Special Forces may repeat Iran, Afghan ops*


February 20, 2011 


ISLAMABAD - The possibility that US could conduct a commando style operation to &#8216;rescue&#8217; Raymond Davis does not stay out of sight. Not to forget that the US forces had done similar kind of operations in Iran and Afghanistan.
The United States carried out a similar mission in Iran in April 1980 after Iranian Revolutionary Guards in the American Embassy in Tehran held 52 American nationals as captives. A total number of 66 US nationals at the said US Embassy were detained. Later, 14 of them were released and the remaining ones were held. The deliberations between the US and Iranian governments for the release of detained US nationals failed to come fruitful and the US forces launched Operation Eagle Claw to set the captive Americans free. Jimmy Carter, the then US President, had ordered this rescue mission under the command of Colonel Charles Beckwith. The offensive on the aforesaid embassy was to be initiated after disrupting electrical power supply in the area to sabotage any military response by the Iranians.
As per operation plan, AC-130 gunships were to hover around to provide supporting fire. The helicopters were to transport the rescuers and hostages to Manzariyeh Air Base outside of Tehran. There, a ranger force would seize the airfield to permit C-141 transports to land in advance for transporting the captives contingent from Iran under the protection of fighter planes. However, this well thought out military offensive failed due to unfavourable weather conditions triggered by thunderstorms causing casualties of two of the eight RH-53D Sea Stallion helicopters. The RH-53 collided with AC-130 gunships and subsequently, eight US servicemen died, including those of US field Army and Air Force personnel.


US Special Forces may repeat Iran, Afghan ops | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

This special forces ops is not possible at this moment-----you see---the americans were caught with their pants down this time. Mr Obama and Ms Clinto forgot waht was happening around the world----their reaction to this issue was a knee jerk reaction.

The realization is hitting america that they first lost Tunisia, then Egypt---now there is chaos in one of their biggest overseas naval base ie in Bahrain----Yemen is in turmopil and so is Libya---. All these countries under the u s sphere of influence have just changed allegiance or are about to. 

To lose pakistan in this fiasco would have been a capitol blunder by the U S----it started going that way---but maybe---maybe some common sense took over the rhetoric of Mr Obama and Clinton-----loss of pakistan would have been extremely severe to the u s interests in the region and may create the catalyst to over throw the rest of the dictatorial regimes in the area. If the u s has backed off for that reason-----good common sense thinking---otherwise there would be bigger issues to worry about.

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## RescueRanger

DV RULES said:


> *US Special Forces may repeat Iran, Afghan ops*
> 
> 
> February 20, 2011
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD - The possibility that US could conduct a commando style operation to &#8216;rescue&#8217; Raymond Davis does not stay out of sight. Not to forget that the US forces had done similar kind of operations in Iran and Afghanistan.
> The United States carried out a similar mission in Iran in April 1980 after Iranian Revolutionary Guards in the American Embassy in Tehran held 52 American nationals as captives. A total number of 66 US nationals at the said US Embassy were detained. Later, 14 of them were released and the remaining ones were held. The deliberations between the US and Iranian governments for the release of detained US nationals failed to come fruitful and the US forces launched Operation Eagle Claw to set the captive Americans free. Jimmy Carter, the then US President, had ordered this rescue mission under the command of Colonel Charles Beckwith. The offensive on the aforesaid embassy was to be initiated after disrupting electrical power supply in the area to sabotage any military response by the Iranians.
> As per operation plan, AC-130 gunships were to hover around to provide supporting fire. The helicopters were to transport the rescuers and hostages to Manzariyeh Air Base outside of Tehran. There, a ranger force would seize the airfield to permit C-141 transports to land in advance for transporting the captives contingent from Iran under the protection of fighter planes. However, this well thought out military offensive failed due to unfavourable weather conditions triggered by thunderstorms causing casualties of two of the eight RH-53D Sea Stallion helicopters. The RH-53 collided with AC-130 gunships and subsequently, eight US servicemen died, including those of US field Army and Air Force personnel.
> 
> 
> US Special Forces may repeat Iran, Afghan ops | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


 
Of course you do realise that this would be a military and political blunder of epic proportions. What this article lacks in reading, it makes up for in serving as a perfect wrap for my samosa's... but that's about it.

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## Rig Vedic

TruthSeeker said:


> Exactly!! Raymond Davis is not an example for ANY of my country's diplomats to follow. Hillary Clinton should let him twist in the Pakistani wind as a lesson to any other "cowboy diplomats" that we may have stationed in Pakistan, or even Italy, for that matter. Our diplomats should be read the riot act: If you can't do the job *diplomatically*, then you are not a diplomat!!!!! Blowing two people away using an illegal weapon, on a public street, is NOT diplomatic!!! I am really, really tired of all the American energy being expended in an effort to save this guy's a$$! Hillary, he is not worth it!!!



Obviously he is not a diplomat in the traditional sense of the term. However, Americans are being killed in Afghanistan because of bad guys operating from Pakistan, and there is difficult and dangerous work that needs doing. Some Pakistanis may think that he shot two people for fun. But in all likelihood he felt himself under threat, and there is no reason to believe the was not serving honorably.


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## SekrutYakhni

*"The realization is hitting america that they first lost Tunisia, then Egypt---now there is chaos in one of their biggest overseas naval base ie in Bahrain----Yemen is in turmopil and so is Libya---. All these countries under the u s sphere of influence have just changed allegiance or are about to. 

To lose pakistan in this fiasco would have been a capitol blunder by the U S----it started going that way---but maybe---maybe some common sense took over the rhetoric of Mr Obama and Clinton-----loss of pakistan would have been extremely severe to the u s interests in the region and may create the catalyst to over throw the rest of the dictatorial regimes in the area. If the u s has backed off for that reason-----good common sense thinking---otherwise there would be bigger issues to worry about."*

There is this thing which people have to realize now. You cannot use dictators, corrupt politicians etc for longer. The real relationship comes when there is a sane leadership on both sides, crystal clear hands. If the U.S. and Pakistan really wanna have a good relationship, people to people contact is inevitable. You cannot give money to the leaders while listening 'go amrika go' on the streets, this will create more polarization and hatred among society. This will also create an ideological difference between rich and poor, which is already happening. If people of Pakistan stop burning flags of the U.S., by in large, that moment the real relationship will start.

One more thing, gone are the days when people were oppressed for centuries and the lava exploded after decades. In the near future, that lava will merely take years to explode. So, in this case, sane corrupt men should get some lesson--.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Davis is answerable not just to Pakistan courts, but I presume also to American peoples (govt. and civilians) considering the fact that we was in contact with some very "strange" people in N. Waziristan; people belonging to groups dubbed terrorist organizations by certain entities

to wit:

(Chapter 8 -- Foreign Terrorist Organizations)


i wonder why he himself in the "interrogation video" (if that's what it's to be called) doesn't harp on about diplomatic immunity; he keeps asking for his passport while he gets bottled Nestle water. He himself says he is a consultant.

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## RescueRanger

Rig Vedic said:


> Obviously he is not a diplomat in the traditional sense of the term. However, Americans are being killed in Afghanistan because of bad guys operating from Pakistan, and there is difficult and dangerous work that needs doing. Some Pakistanis may think that he shot two people for fun. But in all likelihood he felt himself under threat, and there is no reason to believe the was not serving honorably.


 
Okay since you started this.. Can you link empirical information highlighting the number of attacks form Pakistani based Taliban on US Assets in Afghanistan. Please don't derail the thread and discuss the facts of the Raymond Davis case. You say "dangerous" works needs to be done, yes it does that is why we have the Army, Paramilitary forces, police, etc... Use them, don't hire Magnum PI to come play Miami 5.0 in our cities. We are doing our part of the JOB in OUR country:
Pak Institute for Peace Studies (PIPS), Independent Think Tank in Pakistan

So we can stop that silly argument of US intervention in Pakistan being a necessary evil.. "Sovereign Nation" and it's sanctity, please read about it... Just look around you, Egypt, Bahrain, Libya... The whole region is a powder keg... 



> , and there is no reason to believe the was not serving honorably.



Tell that to the family of the guy who was crushed by the Land Cruiser.. So tell me this, where would it stop? Would we need a barbaric Falluja like incident to remind our friends that enough is enough? Your post lacks maturity, do some research on the background of your subject you are debating then come back to us and talk to us about honor. 

Regards,

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Rig Vedic said:


> Obviously he is not a diplomat in the traditional sense of the term. However, Americans are being killed in Afghanistan because of bad guys operating from Pakistan, and there is difficult and dangerous work that needs doing. Some Pakistanis may think that he shot two people for fun. But in all likelihood he felt himself under threat, and there is no reason to believe the was not serving honorably.


 
indians are being beat up and killed in Australia; despite the violence in parts of Pakistan, we dont want to set a bad precedent by allowing more of our people to get killed

of course the 2 scenarios are different --but just saying.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

were Black Water consultants granted "diplomatic immunity" after the Baghdad incident?


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## DV RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This special forces ops is not possible at this moment-----you see---the americans were caught with their pants down this time. Mr Obama and Ms Clinto forgot waht was happening around the world----their reaction to this issue was a knee jerk reaction.
> 
> The realization is hitting america that they first lost Tunisia, then Egypt---now there is chaos in one of their biggest overseas naval base ie in Bahrain----Yemen is in turmopil and so is Libya---. All these countries under the u s sphere of influence have just changed allegiance or are about to.
> 
> To lose pakistan in this fiasco would have been a capitol blunder by the U S----it started going that way---but maybe---maybe some common sense took over the rhetoric of Mr Obama and Clinton-----loss of pakistan would have been extremely severe to the u s interests in the region and may create the catalyst to over throw the rest of the dictatorial regimes in the area. If the u s has backed off for that reason-----good common sense thinking---otherwise there would be bigger issues to worry about.


 
Obviously, it could be worst idea but we are not Afghanistan& Iraq. News i posted above is clicking over option so option is ever option but not to ignore even if we are strong and confident over impossibility. 

What about US's strategical downfall in Africa & Gulf then i am not agree with you, what is going on there is interesting strange & part of next big move. Better to discuss in related thread.


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## RescueRanger

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> were Black Water consultants granted "diplomatic immunity" after the Baghdad incident?


 
Blackwater Immunity | CrossLeft


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## RescueRanger

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> indians are being beat up and killed in Australia; despite the violence in parts of Pakistan, we dont want to set a bad precedent by allowing more of our people to get killed
> 
> of course the 2 scenarios are different --but just saying.


 
No, No sir. It is different when Pakistanis get injured or killed. There is a dangerous job to do here, don't you know..


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## DV RULES

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Davis is answerable not just to Pakistan courts, but I presume also to American peoples (govt. and civilians) considering the fact that we was in contact with some very "strange" people in N. Waziristan; people belonging to groups dubbed terrorist organizations by certain entities
> 
> to wit:
> 
> (Chapter 8 -- Foreign Terrorist Organizations)
> 
> 
> i wonder why he himself in the "interrogation video" (if that's what it's to be called) doesn't harp on about diplomatic immunity; he keeps asking for his passport while he gets bottled Nestle water. He himself says he is a consultant.


 
Word consultant usually used by undercover agents in Embassy or consulates of any country. This is a general term, but they are not part of administration as their activities can't be proven by Embassy officials. "POLITICHESKI SOVETNIKI (Political consultant)"


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## SekrutYakhni

"POLITICHESKI SOVETNIKI (Political consultant)"
Spasibo.


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## MastanKhan

Rig Vedic said:


> Obviously he is not a diplomat in the traditional sense of the term. However, Americans are being killed in Afghanistan because of bad guys operating from Pakistan, and there is difficult and dangerous work that needs doing. Some Pakistanis may think that he shot two people for fun. But in all likelihood he felt himself under threat, and there is no reason to believe the was not serving honorably.


 
Sir,

They are not being killed because of bad guys from pakistan---when you point a finger to blame---4 are pointed towards you----why did they not seal the border---. Who stopped them. Long before that---why did they not close all the escape routes of of afh in 2002 before striking afg---. U S milltary is full of lame excuses---for their screw up---they have their media to dump the blame on evrerybody else but them.

They started the war with bad analysis and bad calculations---then they missed every oppurtunity presented to them to make amends of their mistakes and they even failed in that as well---the only thing that they succeeded in was killing a lots of innocent people and blaming everyone else but them.

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## Developereo

TruthSeeker said:


> Exactly!! Raymond Davis is not an example for ANY of my country's diplomats to follow. Hillary Clinton should let him twist in the Pakistani wind as a lesson to any other "cowboy diplomats" that we may have stationed in Pakistan, or even Italy, for that matter. Our diplomats should be read the riot act: If you can't do the job *diplomatically*, then you are not a diplomat!!!!! Blowing two people away using an illegal weapon, on a public street, is NOT diplomatic!!! I am really, really tired of all the American energy being expended in an effort to save this guy's a$$! Hillary, he is not worth it!!!


 
This guy Davis has not only blown his own cover, he has blown the lid off a clandestine operation in Pakistan. This will unfairly put all Americans associated with the US embassy under a cloud of suspicion -- even the decent ones working honestly in humanitarian and NGO projects.

I dare say the fallout will extend to US missions and associated personnel in other countries, too. Especially in less-than-friendly countries.

The US is far too civilized for Davis to fear serious reprisals back home; if he had been Russian, he would probably prefer to rot in a Pakistani jail than to go back and face the music.


----------



## MastanKhan

DV RULES said:


> Obviously, it could be worst idea but we are not Afghanistan& Iraq. News i posted above is clicking over option so option is ever option but not to ignore even if we are strong and confident over impossibility.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please don't dwell on that idea---'we are not afg or iraq'----. American reaction to issues is logarithmic---jusy because you have Davis and have made america back down a tad bit----don't bring the strut to your step yet---. This is not even a millionth of a millionth part of hostilities---.
> 
> America is eagerlty waiting for pakistan to do something stupid----american strike forces are waiting to fight a staged war with real manly men----american air force is waiting eagerly to fight an air war with someone with some sting in their strike---.
> 
> As I mentioned----the american aggression is logarithmic---which I bet you do understand what it means----if not---the intensity of the american strike increases tenfolds by the hour over the duration of the first 48 hours----.
> 
> Let me give you an idea what it would take to neutralize pakistan----48 hours----72 at the most----pak millitary will be a burning hulk of a skeleton.
> 
> My goodman----do your thing with Davis----but just keep it at that---anymore----and it will give upset stomach and create hiccups that are not needed.

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## DV RULES

saad445566 said:


> "POLITICHESKI SOVETNIKI (Political consultant)"
> Spasibo.


 
&#1074;&#1089;&#1077;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1078;&#1072;&#1083;&#1091;&#1081;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;


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## DV RULES

MastanKhan said:


> DV RULES said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, it could be worst idea but we are not Afghanistan& Iraq. News i posted above is clicking over option so option is ever option but not to ignore even if we are strong and confident over impossibility.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please don't dwell on that idea---'we are not afg or iraq'----. American reaction to issues is logarithmic---jusy because you have Davis and have made america back down a tad bit----don't bring the strut to your step yet---. This is not even a millionth of a millionth part of hostilities---.
> 
> America is eagerlty waiting for pakistan to do something stupid----american strike forces are waiting to fight a staged war with real manly men----american air force is waiting eagerly to fight an air war with someone with some sting in their strike---.
> 
> As I mentioned----the american aggression is logarithmic---which I bet you do understand what it means----if not---the intensity of the american strike increases tenfolds by the hour over the duration of the first 48 hours----.
> 
> Let me give you an idea what it would take to neutralize pakistan----48 hours----72 at the most----pak millitary will be a burning hulk of a skeleton.
> 
> My goodman----do your thing with Davis----but just keep it at that---anymore----and it will give upset stomach and create hiccups that are not needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no treatment of chronic fear.
Click to expand...

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## Omar1984

MastanKhan said:


> DV RULES said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, it could be worst idea but we are not Afghanistan& Iraq. News i posted above is clicking over option so option is ever option but not to ignore even if we are strong and confident over impossibility.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please don't dwell on that idea---'we are not afg or iraq'----. American reaction to issues is logarithmic---jusy because you have Davis and have made america back down a tad bit----don't bring the strut to your step yet---. This is not even a millionth of a millionth part of hostilities---.
> 
> America is eagerlty waiting for pakistan to do something stupid----american strike forces are waiting to fight a staged war with real manly men----american air force is waiting eagerly to fight an air war with someone with some sting in their strike---.
> 
> As I mentioned----the american aggression is logarithmic---which I bet you do understand what it means----if not---the intensity of the american strike increases tenfolds by the hour over the duration of the first 48 hours----.
> 
> Let me give you an idea what it would take to neutralize pakistan----48 hours----72 at the most----pak millitary will be a burning hulk of a skeleton.
> 
> My goodman----do your thing with Davis----but just keep it at that---anymore----and it will give upset stomach and create hiccups that are not needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what do you think? Pakistan Airforce, Pakistan Navy, Pakistan Army will all just sit and watch? Do you work for Indian news channels by any chance?
> 
> What is the use of Pakistan having over 100 nuclear weapons? What was the use of spending so much money on our atomic nuclear program? What was the use of eating grass and facing sanctions for those nukes? So they can just collect dust while others destroy Pakistan?
Click to expand...


----------



## MastanKhan

DV RULES said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no treatment of chronic fear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Ye---you are right---there will be no time to think of fear---because the lights will go dark very soon.
Click to expand...


----------



## MastanKhan

Omar1984 said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And what do you think? Pakistan Airforce, Pakistan Navy, Pakistan Army will all just sit and watch? Do you work for Indian news channels by any chance?
> 
> What is the use of Pakistan having over 100 nuclear weapons? What was the use of spending so much money on our atomic nuclear program? What was the use of eating grass and facing sanctions for those nukes? So they can just collect dust while others destroy Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> These 10o nuc weapons storage would be destroyed in their storage lots----the u s knows that pak needs 4---8 hours to load, assemble and program the nucs----that is all the time to disengage them----.
> 
> As for the pak navy and air force----it would seem that they never existed----. I guess I misunderstood that you pleople might understand the term logarithmic responce---now I realize it is not in your knowledge to make anything out of it----. These forces might delay the inevitable by another 24 to 48 hours.
> 
> Just deal with Davis for a few days more and then let him go---.
Click to expand...


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## F86 Saber

Like someone else posted in another part of the forum, it is not upto the civil govt. or the judiciary to let Davis go, this will be deicided by the GHQ. I believe that this is a stern warning from the ISI to the CIA to "Stop it right there". 

I completely disagree with respected Mastan Khan because it is an open secret that with the state of the American economy they cannot afford another open war a la Iraq and Afghanistan. The attack on Iraq was to makeup for the loses suffered in Afghanistan by taking over one of the most abundant sources of crude oil in the world, they have no such attraction to attack Pakistan. The operation in Afghanistan is not the one that will bear instant fruit for USA, it is a strategy that needs time to mature and for that they cannot afford hostility with Pakistan, not as yet. 

I think we should let GHQ handle RD and i am sure whatever they do it will be for the benefit of Pakistan because i believe in the Army. I know that they will be the ones standing in front of blazing guns in case of war to protect Pakistan while the civilian govt. will hide in protected bunkers. I know this because in case of a (God forbid, mere mun main khak) military takeover of Pakistan, the military Generals will be the ones hunted down and taken to the gallows while the civil rules will ask for immunity and flee the country to live on already maintained swiss accounts. I believe that our army has more to lose than the civilian rulers.


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## JonAsad

We should wrap davis in a gift paper- and hand him over to The Ultimate force- Americans- Other wise they gonna destroy us- Pakistanis-
If i tell my Kid that story- he will believe it-
If i tell that to my brother- he will laugh at me and say- You fool- How can America attack us for just 1 person- Yes maybe America can destroy the armies of many nations- in couple of days maybe- but why Pakistan? Are Pakistani nukes stored in just one safe place to be destroyed? Just like that?- Why dont they target practice on Iran- if they are that much capable- which is alleged to have nukes- but against Pakistan with confirm nukes- They gonna go for it-
I will say to myself-- My Kid is intelligent- He will obey his Masters- I should groom him a little more to be perfect- slave


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## Awesome

MastanKhan said:


> Just deal with Davis for a few days more and then let him go---.


 
Let's just dissolve Pakistan then and gift it to the US, when we can't do anything that they disagree with, whats the use of such a country? Sir, perhaps you are out of gas to keep the good fight on... But don't pass on the hopelessness onto the people who still have plenty of fight left in them. Above everything else, your attitude is just disappointing.

I'm reminded of the song line:

Ghulami main khush hain, abhi doosron ki
Ke rehtay hain jannat main, woh ahmakon ki.

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## Awesome

Glorious Resolve said:


> We should wrap davis in a gift paper- and hand him over to The Ultimate force- Americans- Other wise they gonna destroy us- Pakistanis-
> If i tell my Kid that story- he will believe it-


I don't have kids, but I don't imagine ever giving him a lesson in growing up as a coward. Not even an intelligent sensible coward. You teach your kids to do the right thing, no matter what.


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## JonAsad

Asim Aquil said:


> I don't have kids, but I don't imagine ever giving him a lesson in growing up as a coward. Not even an intelligent sensible coward. You teach your kids to do the right thing, no matter what.


 
It was just a figure of speech--- Kid and Brother were used- two show people with different mind sets-
Kid- could be a hopeless person living in Denial-
My Brother- could be a person with- bit of Dignity-fight- or common sense left in him-


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## RescueRanger

MastanKhan said:


> Omar1984 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> These 10o nuc weapons storage would be destroyed in their storage lots----the u s knows that pak needs 4---8 hours to load, assemble and program the nucs----that is all the time to disengage them----.
> 
> As for the pak navy and air force----it would seem that they never existed----. I guess I misunderstood that you pleople might understand the term logarithmic responce---now I realize it is not in your knowledge to make anything out of it----. These forces might delay the inevitable by another 24 to 48 hours.
> 
> Just deal with Davis for a few days more and then let him go---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My My... Mastan Bahi, you need to start writing novels, seriously your dramatic enough to become the next Tom Clancy... In all honesty do you feel that America would strike Pakistan over RD?
> 
> Secondly and i don't want to play the Devil's Advocate but do you really think that Pakistan will just sit there and roll over belly up in the response to a coordinated US Strike?
> 
> Consider the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. Army&#8217;s preparedness for war has eroded to levels not witnessed by our country in decades. As deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan continue unabated, there is a very real prospect that Army readiness will continue to erode, undermining its ability to meet the theater commanders&#8217; needs and foreclosing any option for the U.S. to respond to conflicts elsewhere around the globe. The degradation of Army readiness is primarily a function of unanticipated high troop deployment levels to Iraq, chronic equipment and personnel shortages, funding constraints, and Pentagon civilian mismanagement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. The Army currently has 39 active-duty combat brigades, as it builds to a total of 42 under the restructuring plan known as &#8220;modularity.&#8221; Over the coming months, roughly 19.5 combat brigades will be committed to Iraq and Afghanistan. Army doctrine calls for 2 units to be held in reserve (for rest and training) for every unit deployed. As of today, the Army has only one unit in reserve for every unit deployed &#8211; *a ratio that history shows cannot be sustained for any length of time without serious adverse consequences to the force.*
> 
> 
> 2. Moreover, the Army&#8217;s Force Generation Model calls for a three-year cycle in which Army active-duty units would deploy for one-year, return and reset over another year, and train and prepare for deployment over the third year. Given current deployment rates and the insufficient number of Army combat brigades, the Army model is conceptually sound but in practice remains little more than a figment of the Army&#8217;s imagination.
> 
> 3. In fact it&#8217;s quite likely that Army combat units preparing for the next rotation (07-09) will be &#8220;short-cycled&#8221;; that is, units will be forced to return to battle with less than one year&#8217;s time to recuperate, reset, and train. For example, the 3rd brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division returned from Iraq in February of this year. Prior to the last deployment it had a 16-month preparation period. The brigade now expects to receive its &#8220;prepare to deploy&#8221; orders within roughly the next 3 months, which would force the brigade to curtail training and eliminate leave for its soldiers.
> 
> 4. The Army&#8217;s ability to meet CS/CSS unit requirements is constrained by the lack of Guard and Reserve soldiers available to meet future missions.* Of the 341,000* Army National Guard soldiers in uniform, only roughly 50,000 remain available for mobilization. *For the Army Reserve*, only about *56,000* of the 190,000 in uniform are available. Thus, Army leaders expressed strong concern about the need to re-examine the Administration&#8217;s current policy of not extending the reserve mobilization period beyond two years.
> 
> ----
> 
> Now consider the assets they need for a conflict of the "GRAND" scale you are proposing and then consider the following:
> 1. &#8220;Since 9/11, we have reset and returned over 1,900 aircraft, over 14,000 track vehicles, almost 111,000 wheeled vehicles, as well as thousands of other items to our operational units,&#8221; Schoomaker told the House committee last week. &#8220;By the end of this year &#8211; fiscal year 2006, which will end in three months &#8211; we will have placed approximately 290,000 major items of equipment into reset. Approximately 280,000 major items will remain in theater and will not redeploy to be reset until the drawdown [of U.S. forces in Iraq] is implemented.&#8221;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this week&#8217;s missile tests by North Korea and simmering tension surrounding Iran&#8217;s potential nuclear weapons capability, national *security leaders and analysts are increasingly alarmed about potential obstacles to deploying U.S. troops outside of existing commitments.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although ground troops bear the greatest brunt of combat duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, the House memo also notes strains the current operations are having on the Air Force.
> 
> &#8220;Despite claims that Air Force readiness levels are stable,* it must be noted that readiness is at an historic low* and the factors associated with current shortfalls will likely fuel a continued decline,&#8221; according to the memo.
> 
> The service operates many of the Pentagon&#8217;s so-called &#8220;high-demand/low- density&#8221; forces &#8211; such as command and control aircraft, combat search and rescue planes, air refuelers, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft &#8211; which are used heavily and are in short supply.
> 
> &#8211; Elaine M. Grossman
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Now add to this the Human Factor: The issues of Combat Stress and Battle Fatigue:
> 
> US ARMY Field Manual 22:51 - Definition AR 40-216:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With these poor boys and girls being stuck in theateres in Iraq and Afghanistan, having leaves reduced, having tours extended... Do you feel that is a good thing for the morale of fighting forces....
> 
> Do you really think, these "Real MANLY" men you refer to don't suffer attrition, or are they John Rambo, UniSol and Captain America rolled into one?
> 
> Now even if you ignore this, consider the following angles :
> 
> The Financial Angle:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary, has said military spending must be cut by up to $15 billion a year *and that the US cannot afford to enter into another Afghanistan or Iraq*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Political Angle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opposition to the war in Afghanistan is at an all-time high, *with 63 percent of the public now opposed to U.S. involvement there*, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> So you see Mastan Bahi, whilst its all too easy to play the scaremonger and present a wonderfully worded write up on how we are the dust beneath the American Boot, the FACTS on the ground present a very different story.
> 
> Whilst i enjoy reading your posts, your recent scaremongering is becoming a tad bit much. It is funny that you highlight the strengths of the American's yet leave out the fact that Pakistan has developed second strike capability, and that whilst we are no where as strong conventionally, this "ATTACK" you talk about would be a total disaster for the US, and Washington knows it.
> 
> You really underestimate Pakistan, mastan sb... Hum ney ghar me choorian nahi pahen rakhi hain .
Click to expand...

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## Abu Basit

MastanKhan said:


> DV RULES said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Ye---you are right---there will be no time to think of fear---because the lights will go dark very soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mumyyyyyyyyyyyyyy i'm scared
Click to expand...


----------



## Abu Basit

MastanKhan said:


> Omar1984 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just deal with Davis for a few days more and then let him go---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah let the rope go around his neck.....
Click to expand...


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## Tameem

MastanKhan said:


> Just deal with Davis for a few days more and then let him go---.


 
Is it your Desire? Demand? Or just a duty as an American?

Nevertheless!! Davis encounter with two Pakistanis on that fateful day is not spontaneous by any nature except his cowboy style response but a pre-planned one from our security agencies point of view because they want to rounded him up for one way or another and US embassys mistake (for someones) gave them an opportunity;

First, they know he is not on diplomatic Passport and secondly a day before the incident US embassy shared a list of their diplomats in Pakistan; Davis name is not Included in it, both these facts emboldens to give him a taste of real Pakistan.

IMO, Its not a co-incidence or a sheer negligence from US Consulate but a simple SOP for a persons like him to operate in that kind of situations worldwide so that real motives of his presence remain hidden until something Rare happened and by that time Public knows anything hard the culprit like him vanished abruptly from the face of the earth, but in this case that Rare is shown and encountered by the Americans alone first in shape of Davis adventurism to kill two persons in broad daylight in a busy chowk and exposing himself like this and secondly the behavior of Pakistani Establishment (both Military and Civil) and Politicians (Both In Govt & Opposition) in this incidents response.

So, Americans from an ordinary like you to an Extra-Ordinay like your President just cant believe on the behavior of Pakistanis alike, and believe me.Their is more to come!!!!

Therefore, My dear MK the problems is much deeper and sware than what you think and desire thousands of miles away in your bedroom.

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## tallboy123

"CIA spy" Davis was giving nuclear bomb material to Al-Qaeda, says report


London, Feb 20(ANI): Double murder-accused US official Raymond Davis has been found in possession of top-secret CIA documents, which point to him or the feared American Task Force 373 (TF373) operating in the region, providing Al-Qaeda terrorists with "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents," according to a report.

*Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is warning that the situation on the sub-continent has turned "grave" as it appears that open warfare is about to break out between Pakistan and the United States, The European Union Times reports.
*
The SVR warned in its report that the apprehension of 36-year-old Davis, who shot dead two Pakistani men in Lahore last month, had fuelled this crisis.

According to the report, the combat skills exhibited by Davis, along with documentation taken from him after his arrest, prove that he is a member of US' TF373 black operations unit currently operating in the Afghan War Theatre and Pakistan's tribal areas, the paper said.
*
While the US insists that Davis is one of their diplomats, and the two men he killed were robbers, Pakistan says that the duo were ISI agents sent to follow him after it was discovered that he had been making contact with al Qaeda, after his cell phone was tracked to the Waziristan tribal area bordering Afghanistan, the paper said.*
*
The most ominous point in this SVR report is "Pakistan's ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis's possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents", which they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to re-establish the West's hegemony over a Global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse," the paper added. (ANI)
*


"CIA spy" Davis was giving nuclear bomb material to Al-Qaeda, says report - Yahoo! News


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## Developereo

Let Davis go; Pakistan cannot fight a superpower.

Remember the Klingon proverb, "*revenge is a dish best served cold.*"

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## Tameem

Sohni Dharti said:


> Let Davis go; Pakistan cannot fight a superpower.
> 
> Remember the Klingon proverb, "*revenge is a dish best served cold.*"


 
Brother....Let it come....bcz that "Revenge" will be a cure to all Pakistanis Diesease in the longer run...!!

Khuda Tujhe Kisi Toofan say Aashna Kar-day
Kay Tairay Be-her Ki Mojoon main Iz-tirab Naheen

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## Awesome

There is a big difference between respect and fear. The argument that there are UN laws governing the matter and that we have accorded diplomatic immunity are a matter of respect and we should respect that law and that commitment we did. Essentially when we signed that treaty we agreed that even if a US (or any other nation's) diplomatic immunity holder even raped little kids in Pakistan we will not prosecute him/her. We did so, because we believed in our capability to give this diplomatic immunity to non-raping or for that matter murdering type of Americans.

Which is why from the Pakistani side it is hard to believe that we would knowingly accord this level of immunity to a tech guy, however we won't have the same issue of according the immunity to say Patterson or Munter, who we don't expect to be child rapists or murderers.

Furthermore even if Munter does engage in capital crimes, we are morally right in our stance to demand that the US waive off Munter's immunity for him to be prosecuted in Pakistan. No? Then US state is a horrible entity and we shouldn't have diplomatic relations with them at all.

Respect would be acknowledge his immunity but still keep your moral high ground and break off relations with the US. Respect for your own laws is also that if immunity is not proven, don't waiver even if nuclear weapons are point at you.

Fear on the other hand is, what we call in Urdu "Ulta chor kotwal ko daantay" (thief blames the cop), when the US threatens to break relations with Pakistan - and we give that threat more importance than the right thing.

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## Tameem

*ISI declares war on CIA following Davis double murder incident 
*Submitted by Raman Iyer on Sun, 02/20/2011 - 05:47
Lahore, Feb 20 : Pakistans premier spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) has hardened its stance against US Central Intelligence Agency following the Raymond Davis incident in Lahore on January 27.
While the US official confessed to shooting dead two men in Lahore, allegedly in self-defence, a third Pakistani was struck and killed by another vehicle that was reportedly racing to Davis'' aid.
ISI sources have confirmed that Davis, who is currently under detention in Lahore, had links to the CIA, and said that the conduct of the US intelligence agency around the incident has virtually thrown the partnership into question.
Irrespective of the commonality of objective in the war on terror, it is hard to predict if the relationship will ever get back to the level it was prior to the Davis episode. The onus of not stalling the relationship between the two agencies now squarely lies on the CIA, The Nation quoted them, as saying.
They also dispelled the allegations that the ISI was protecting and relocating the Haqqanis as complete insinuation.
Such stories, to the best of our knowledge, are leaked to the media with the connivance of the CIA and its regrettable that the CIA leadership on many occasions failed to show respect to the relationship between the two agencies and acted in arrogance towards the ISI, which has only resulted in weakening the relationship, said the sources.
It is unfortunate that the CIA leadership fails to understand that the ISI works and will continue to work for national interest regardless of the CIAs stance, they added.
Responding to a question, the sources said that the CIAs outdated approach of exerting pressure is counterproductive and will result in isolation of the CIA in an operational environment where its performance has been found wanting. This approach has offered more questions than answers.
The sources also rejected the perception that information about the drone targets was being provided by Pakistan to the CIA, and that drone strikes came to a halt following the Davis episode because Pakistan had stopped providing them information about targets.
They insisted that these attacks came under an autonomous CIA operation, and Pakistan or the ISI has never provided any target information for drone strikes. (ANI)


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## Awesome

There ought to be a lot more investigation into why the Drone attacks have stopped - and what does it mean for Pakistan?

How has CIA's autonomous drone based operation come a to halt after Davis' arrest? Surely, one guy wasn't the entire operation, thats absurd. But something has changed in the CIA's planning and thinking. I think they are more worried about maintaining their cover than conducting any drone attack. If we go back to the rumor that the two killed, Faheem and Faizan, they were intelligence operatives, is it possible that they were part of some scenario where the CIA recruits local youngsters from Punjab to go to far flung places and plant GPS trackers like the one found on Davis? Davis might have initially been duped into hiring two ISI agents?

It's all speculative and no proof of it, but it should be investigated, at least the one apparent symptom is not imagined - the stoppage in drone attacks. 

I think the call to move the case from Police custody to higher intel agencies is a good one as long as they too give their report to the LHC. However one drawback of this would be that the case would be out of the Punjab government's hands and fully with the Federal government. The Punjab government has a lot of motivation to not bend to US pressure as they have nothing to gain from it. But the police is highly inept to handle this.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Sohni Dharti said:


> Let Davis go; Pakistan cannot fight a superpower.
> 
> Remember the Klingon proverb, "*revenge is a dish best served cold.*"


 
tsk tsk... defeatist at best...

You forget the much more famous saying...

Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam

Today is a good day to die!!!


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## Developereo

Tameem said:


> Brother....Let it come....bcz that "Revenge" will be a cure to all Pakistanis Diesease in the longer run...!!
> 
> Khuda Tujhe Kisi Toofan say Aashna Kar-day
> Kay Tairay Be-her Ki Mojoon main Iz-tirab Naheen


 
In real life conflict, the winner is usually the one who stays calm and doesn't let anger cloud his judgement.

A 300 pound guy who never went to the gym, never worked out, and ate crap all his life cannot take on the world heavy weight boxing champ, no matter how angry he is. It is worse than a suicide mission because his family will be left destitute without him. The only thing to do is to let it be a wakeup call and reform his body, so he is in a better position to fight next time.



Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam
> 
> Today is a good day to die!!!


 
I'd rather be a winner than a martyr. Everybody has an Achilles' heal; the trick is to live another day and fight back.


----------



## Tameem

Sohni Dharti said:


> In real life conflict, the winner is usually the one who stays calm and doesn't let anger cloud his judgement.



Dear In this age of Atomic warfare...the real winner is "Ideology" not the meat or the machine!!! So Don't loose hope on the sole assumptions of both!!!!!


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## Awesome

*Russian Foreign intelligence confirms Davis's CIA status and reports of helping Taliban*

For gods sakes, why is CIA or the Black Operations team helping the Taliban with Nuclear/biological weapons? CIA gone rogue?

This is not just the Pakistani media reporting this, even the Indians have picked it up.

Davis was giving Nuke material to Qaeda: Report



> London: Double murder-accused US official Raymond Davis has been found in possession of top-secret CIA documents, which point to him or the feared *American Task Force 373 (TF373)* operating in the region, providing al Qaeda terrorists with &#8220;nuclear fissile material&#8221; and &#8220;biological agents", according to a report.
> 
> Russia&#8217;s Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is warning that the situation on the sub-continent has turned &#8220;grave&#8221; as it appears that open warfare is about to break out between Pakistan and the United States, The European Union Times reports.
> 
> The SVR warned in its report that the apprehension of 36-year-old Davis, who shot dead two Pakistani men in Lahore last month, had fuelled this crisis.
> 
> According to the report, the combat skills exhibited by Davis, along with documentation taken from him after his arrest, prove that he is a member of US&#8217; *TF373 black operations unit *currently operating in the Afghan War Theatre and Pakistan&#8217;s tribal areas, the paper said.
> 
> While the US insists that Davis is one of their diplomats, and the two men he killed were robbers, Pakistan says that the duo were ISI agents sent to follow him after it was discovered that he had been making contact with al Qaeda, after his cell phone was tracked to the Waziristan tribal area bordering Afghanistan, the paper said.
> 
> The most ominous point in this SVR report is &#8220;Pakistan&#8217;s ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis&#8217;s possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists &#8220;nuclear fissile material&#8221; and &#8220;biological agents&#8221;, which they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to re-establish the West&#8217;s hegemony over a Global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse,&#8221; the paper added.

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## Developereo

Tameem said:


> Dear In this age of Atomic warfare...the real winner is "Ideology" not the meat or the machine!!! So Don't loose hope on the sole assumptions of both!!!!!


 
Pakistan will not use atomic weapons. I can guarantee you that the US knows exactly where each and every one of our nukes is stored. They will be neutralized first in any war. And the US will reduce Pakistan into Afghanistan without even breaking a sweat.

The US is not just a superpower; it is a hyperpower. Even Russia is all talk - they dare not take on the US.

Do you have any idea how the local population lives when you have foreign troops in the streets? Even UN troops? There will be ten thousand Davises running lose, killing with impunity. Our high schools will turn into brothels, and our peopel will be reduced to begging for food scraps. There is no dignity there.

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## Tameem

Sohni Dharti said:


> Pakistan will not use atomic weapons. I can guarantee you that the US knows exactly where each and every one of our nukes is stored. They will be neutralized first in any war. And the US will reduce Pakistan into Afghanistan without even breaking a sweat.
> 
> The US is not just a superpower; it is a hyperpower. Even Russia is all talk - they dare not take on the US.
> 
> Do you have any idea how the local population lives when you have foreign troops in the streets? Even UN troops? There will be ten thousand Davises running lose, killing with impunity. Our high schools will turn into brothels, and our peopel will be reduced to begging for food scraps. There is no dignity there.


 
There is no treatment of chronic fear......!!! Rightly said earlier by someone.

Wa-EZa Khataba Humul Jahiloona....Qaloo Salamaaaa!!!

*SALAMMAAA*

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## JonAsad

I am happy- such minority cowards- fearful- people are living in the west- First there was an American-- now an Australian- they are just like western mouthpieces-- like old age *"Qasids"*-- giving us the message *before a battle*- *Surrender or face Annihilation*-- In the end it depends on the people in the country- the majority- what they want- it seems like they are not in a mood to bow down to the supposedly supreme- Americans-

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## r3alist

Solomon2 said:


> That's why it isn't enough to simply release Davis; Pakistani officials should attempt to explain what diplomatic immunity means to the people and even attempt to pursue the Davis affair in U.S. courts.


 
Those Blackwater murderers who sickeningly killed Iraqis for fun were let off in American courts, you really think America will prosecute people who are doing their dirty work for them, and clearly this dirty work is crucial for them.


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## Awesome

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2011/02/analysis_gap_in_.php

For over three weeks, the CIA's controversial covert air campaign that targets al Qaeda, Taliban, and allied terror groups' leaders and operatives in Pakistan's lawless and Taliban-controlled tribal areas has been silent. There has not been an airstrike by the armed, unmanned Predators and Reapers, or drones as they are more commonly called, for 25 days. This pause has sparked speculation that the US has halted the strikes for political reasons, but a look at the pace of the strikes over time shows that long pauses are not uncommon.

The current 23-day lull in strikes in Pakistan is the third-longest period of inactivity since the US ramped up the program in August 2008, according to data on the strikes compiled by The Long War Journal [a list of operational pauses that have been longer than eight days appears below].

The most recent strikes took place on Jan. 23, when the Predators and Reapers pounded al Qaeda and Taliban targets in the Taliban-controlled tribal agency of North Waziristan.

The two most extended periods of operational inactivity so far have occurred in 2009. The longest recorded pause was 33 days, from Nov. 4 to Dec. 8, 2009. The second-longest pause was 28 days, from May 16 to June 14, 2009.

Also, there have been two other periods of time in which 20 or more days went by without a strike. Again, both operational pauses occurred in 2009: from Jan. 23 to Feb. 14 (21 days); and from Jan. 2 to Jan. 23 (20 days).

In 2010, there were two periods exceeding 15 days' time in which no Predator strikes occurred in Pakistan: from July 25 to Aug. 14 (19 days) ; and from June 29 to July 15 (15 days).

Since August 2008, there have been 24 periods of eight days or longer with no Predator strikes.

Most US intelligence officials contacted by The Long War Journal were unwilling to discuss the reasons for the current pause in strikes, or previous strikes, citing operational security concerns. But weather in the region is known to be the primary reason for slowdowns in the strikes.

Pakistani news outlets have speculated that the pause in strikes is related to the arrest of Raymond Davis, the US consular official who shot and killed two Pakistanis in Lahore. Davis believed the men were trying to kill him, but Pakistani courts refuse to recognize his diplomatic status and release him. One theory is that the US is not launching Predator strikes while Davis is in custody lest an attack inflame Pakistani sentiments.

But US officials contacted by The Long War Journal would not link Davis' detention to the pause in strikes.

Number of days between Predator/Reaper strikes in Pakistan since August 2008, eight days or greater

2011:

23 days, Jan. 23 to Feb. 16
2010:

9 days, Dec. 17 to Dec. 27
19 days, July 25 to Aug. 14
15 days, June 29 to July 15
12 days, May 28 to June 10
12 days, March 30 to April 12
10 days, Feb. 24 to March 8
11 days, Feb. 2 to Feb. 14
2009:

33 days, Nov. 4 to Dec. 8
13 days, Sept. 30 to Oct. 14
9 days, Sept. 14 to Sept. 24
10 days, Aug. 27 to Sept. 7
8 days, Aug. 11 to Aug. 20
9 days, June 23 to July 3
28 days, May 16 to June 14
9 days, April 19 to April 29
10 days, April 8 to April 19
9 days, March 15 to March 25
10 days, March 1 to March 12
12 days, Feb. 16 to March 1
21 days, Jan. 23 to Feb. 14
20 days, Jan. 2 to Jan. 23
2008:

11 days, Nov. 29 to Dec. 11
13 days, Sept. 17 to Oct. 1

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## monitor



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## monitor

Why Raymond Davis is so important for US 

By Dr Raja Muhammad Khan
Saturday, February 19, 2011 


In the midst of the mounting pressure for the release of Raymond Davis, President Obama during a press conference on February 15, 2011, emphasized Pakistan to respect the Vienna Convention and set free this US national. Raymond Davis was arrested on the charges of committing murder of two Pakistani nationals in Lahore on January 27, 2011. Referring to the relaxation in the said convention, President Obama said that, &#8220;We expect Pakistan, that&#8217;s a signatory and recognizes Mr. Davis as a diplomat, to abide by the same convention.&#8221;

Senator Johan Kerry, known for his soft corner for Pakistan, also visited Pakistan, and tried to convince Pakistani leadership for the release of Raymond Davis. In his almost 24 hour brief visit, Senator Kerry conveniently met all the stakeholders in the Pakistani leadership and pursued the case of Raymond. 

While taking the principled stand, Pakistan clarified to the visiting senator that, this is a very complicated case, and is under consideration in the court. The message Senator Kerry carried home that; Pakistani leadership would like the case to be decided by the Pakistani courts, under the Pakistani Constitution, as Raymond killed Pakistanis on the Pakistani soil. Pakistan understands that, respecting the diplomatic norms is the responsibility of all member countries; which have ratified the Vienna Convention of 1960. 

However, should the convention give diplomatic immunity to the people, involve in heinous crimes like killing innocent citizens of the host country, is a big question mark. Raymond David may have a diplomatic passport, but, in no case, he was a diplomat, as even accepted by the US Embassy in Islamabad, that, he is part of lower technical staff. However, the reality is different, as a lot has been revealed with respect to the suspicious activities of Raymond Davis. 

Even on the day of this tragic incidence, he had a meeting with militants. As one could know so far, this so-called diplomat had many links with the anti-Pakistan elements all over the country. 

Irrespective if the fact that he is a regular employ or on contract, Raymond Davis indeed is a highly trained CIA operative, working for his organization against the Pakistani interests. It is believed that there are many CIA operatives, involved in similar type of activities all over the country, whose whereabouts may be known to very few in Pakistan. 

Had Raymond been a normal diplomat or even a technician in the US embassy having no secret information with him, there would not have been so much pressure on Pakistan for his release. 

Since the US itself is the promoter of the human rights, therefore, how the murderer of four innocent citizens (two through direct fire and other two indirectly) could be persuaded for immediate release. 

As far as US is concerned, it may pressurize Pakistan, but, it has lot of stakes in Pakistan, whereas, Pakistan can pull on without US help. Nevertheless, without active Pakistani help, Nato and US may not survive for more than a month. 

What all-Pakistani leadership is required to have strong nerves and stay united on the issues of national pride and prestige? Any hasty statement or a decision may harm the national interest in the long-term, as the people of Pakistan are very sensitive to this issue. 

The writer is an analyst of international relations. Email; drmk_edu@yahoo.com

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## DV RULES

AQ is nothing but co organization of CIA from the time of Afghan war.

Last few months there were so many (preplanned) reports from CIA & Pentagon that AQ looking for dirty Bombs, so time showed who will/is provide nukes to this organization and there will play a drama just like 9/11 and US will rush to attack on our border.
This was 2nd war plane in case Pakistan will denied to attack on Haqqani network or in North Waziristan. 

*We can't reject SVR report over DAVIS, chain is quite clear why US so worry about his Rambo. *

Same strategy which they adopted in 1962 FALSE FLAG operation.


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## JonAsad

*Davis had ID card of Peshawar US consulate
*
Updated at: 0505 PST, Sunday, February 20, 2011
LAHORE: The Identity Card recovered from US double murder suspect, Raymond Davis, who killed* two** innocent Pakistani citizens* in a busy market in Lahore, was of US consulate in Peshawar instead of Lahore, Geo News reported Sunday.

*The ID card represents Raymond Davis being employee of US consulate in Peshawar in instead of Lahore consulate*, sources said.

The US consulate number mentioned on the* ID card is 4819151*, sources claimed.

It is pertinent to mention here that US man Raymond Davis is currently being tried in Lahore High Court (LHC) under charges of killing* two innocent Pakistani citizens* in a busy market, Mazang Chowrangi, in Lahore.

Later, while the suspect was trying to flee the crime scene so a US consulate vehicle came to his rescue, which *trampled to death another man* who had come in way.

Davis, before court, said that he had killed two men in an act of self-defence.

US government has been pressing Pakistan since the heinous crime was committed to release Raymond Davis under pretext of diplomatic immunity.

Davis had ID card of Peshawar US consulate - GEO.tv


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## monitor

America may increase Pakistan aid by 100 Percent if Raymond Davis released | Pakistani Urdu Newspaper Columns, Articles, Editorials,Top Stories, Corruption Scandals from Pakistan


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## F86 Saber

Sohni Dharti said:


> Pakistan will not use atomic weapons. I can guarantee you that the US knows exactly where each and every one of our nukes is stored. They will be neutralized first in any war. And the US will reduce Pakistan into Afghanistan without even breaking a sweat.
> 
> The US is not just a superpower; it is a hyperpower. Even Russia is all talk - they dare not take on the US.
> 
> Do you have any idea how the local population lives when you have foreign troops in the streets? Even UN troops? There will be ten thousand Davises running lose, killing with impunity. Our high schools will turn into brothels, and our peopel will be reduced to begging for food scraps. There is no dignity there.


 
Question....... Are you Mastan Khan with double ID?
I think RR bhai has comprehensively explained just one page back why US is not in a position to attack Pakistan even if they are crazy enough to rage war for only one person. 
Although i agree with you that Pakistan may not be able to match USA bullet to bullet but we have seen in the past how countries much smaller and with lesser capabilities than Pakistan have stood up to USA and forced them to bend and take one up the ......... From distant past North Korea and Vietnam to recent past Libya, Cuba, Venezuela and most recent Iran, all of them have refused to budge under US pressure and have survived through wars even. 
I understand that for nearly 63 years our rulers have been bending over for USA but there's always so much one can take. All it requires is one small incident and it can trigger events as huge as the French Revolution and the recent events in gulf. Its about time US realizes this.


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## r3alist

for years the united states and western nations have been peddling the fear that pakistans nukes are unsafe, were an event like this to happen it would be the perfect pretext to act on the fears they have been propagating, funny how that works huh?

now according to the russians the americans are using pakistan's nukes as a raison d'etre to instigate tectonic shifts in the current global order and configuration of the world.


just what is the nature of this deep "strategic" understanding between the US and pakistan??


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## Awesome

Let's kill this talk about armed conflict over Davis.

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## DV RULES

Sohni Dharti said:


> Let Davis go; Pakistan cannot fight a superpower.
> 
> Remember the Klingon proverb, "*revenge is a dish best served cold.*"


 
No we have not let him go.
Concept of fight not bases on turning tanks toward enemy but it can be done by many other ways, Pakistan knows very well which veins of US under our control. Press one of them & all will be as we desire. Only need how to use it.


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## r3alist

lets also kill all this talk of exacting revenge - pak needs justice, security and prosperity, NOT petty anger.

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## Rig Vedic

tallboy123 said:


> "CIA spy" Davis was giving nuclear bomb material to Al-Qaeda, says report
> 
> 
> London, Feb 20(ANI): Double murder-accused US official Raymond Davis has been found in possession of top-secret CIA documents, which point to him or the feared American Task Force 373 (TF373) operating in the region, providing Al-Qaeda terrorists with "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents," according to a report.
> 
> *Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is warning that the situation on the sub-continent has turned "grave" as it appears that open warfare is about to break out between Pakistan and the United States, The European Union Times reports.
> *



How credible is this EU Times?



> *Racist Skinhead&#8217;s Wife Behind European &#8216;News&#8217; Website*
> Posted in Neo-Nazi by Larry Keller on December 16, 2009
> 
> The online news site European Union Times (EUT) &#8212; which recently &#8220;broke&#8221; a story about President Obama preparing for an imminent civil war &#8212; is being cited as a credible source by several libertarian bloggers who are hyping the story.
> 
> It turns out the EUT was created in October and is registered to the wife of a racist skinhead gang member who was involved in a bizarre stabbing incident last month.
> 
> The story began on Dec. 9 when the EUT reported that Obama has ordered 200,000 troops to be redeployed to the U.S. Northern Command in preparation for a civil war within the United States before the end of winter.
> 
> Since then, it has been cited by blogger Michael Gaddy on LewRockwell.com and by former Constitution Party presidential candidate Chuck Baldwin on his own website.
> 
> Gaddy, a regular on the racist &#8220;Political Cesspool&#8221; radio program, wrote that the EUT story shows a financial collapse or a confiscation of firearms may be imminent. Baldwin said the supposedly ominous events described in the EUT story explain the construction of detention camps to hold U.S. citizens, even though there is no evidence that camps exist.
> 
> The European Union Times isn&#8217;t exactly a venerable news source akin to, say, The Associated Press. It is registered to Jessica Nachtman, wife of Christopher Nachtman. [Editor's note: After the initial posting of this blog item, Jessica Nachtman wrote Hatewatch to say that she merely provides Web hosting for "a European who lives abroad," who she declined to identify further. She said she does not publish or modify any of the site's content.] Christopher Nachtman is a former member of the neo-Nazi group National Alliance who more recently has been active in Volksfront, a racist skinhead group.
> 
> In October, Nachtman stabbed another man during an altercation at a luxury hotel in Palm Beach County, where Holocaust revisionist David Irving was giving a talk. No charges have been filed. The man who was stabbed, John Kopko, has also been involved in neo-Nazi activities in the past. Irving was quoted at the time as saying that Christopher Nachtman attended the event with his wife, Jessica, whom he said might open a bookstore and sell his books. The Nachtmans live in the semi-rural community of Loxahatchee in Palm Beach County, records show. [Editor's note: In her note to Hatewatch, Jessica Nachtman described herself as a "White Racialist," but not a Hitler worshipper. She said she "respectfully" quit the neo-Nazi White Revolution hate group after the stabbing incident and added that the white nationalist movement "is full of dirt bags, criminals, and unstable people," along with a a few responsible and intelligent people.]
> 
> As for Gaddy, he has been a constant contributor to LewRockwell.com over the past five years, writing repeatedly of his love of guns and his disdain for the &#8220;ruling elite&#8221; and the &#8220;criminal government.&#8221; He was among several people who filed numerous on-the-scene reports to Political Cesspool from the Mexican-U.S. border in 2005 in conjunction with the original Minuteman Project. Those reports drew praise from David Duke on his website.
> 
> Racist Skinhead&#8217;s Wife Behind European &#8216;News&#8217; Website | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center



Here is the original source: http://www.eutimes.net/2011/02/cia-spy-captured-giving-nuclear-bomb-to-terrorists/


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## ajtr

*Diplomatic duplicity​*
BY C. CHRISTINE FAIR,

LAHORE -- This much is clear about the latest convulsion in U.S.-Pakistan relations: an American man, operating under the name of Raymond Davis, shot and killed two men in Lahore in the populous province of the Punjab. After the event, an "emergency vehicle," presumably from the U.S. consulate, rushed to rescue Davis and careened into a crowd. The as yet unidentified driver of the rescue vehicle killed a third person. Davis is currently being held in Pakistani custody in Lahore. He has been added to Pakistan's exit control list while his status is being determined in Pakistan's courts, which precludes his exit from the country.

The U.S. government maintains a simple account: he was an employee of the U.S. consulate in Lahore who shot two men in self defense. Since he has "diplomatic immunity," he should be released under the Vienna Convention immediately. President Obama has himself argued that he should be released for these reasons. Concurrent with Obama's appeals for the man's diplomatic immunity, U.S. Senator John Kerry travelled to Pakistan this week to resolve the ever more complicated row. With such high-level demands, the very credibility of the U.S. presidency is at stake. This is not lost upon Pakistan or its citizens.

Pakistan has its own stylized, yet starkly divergent, account from that heard in the United States. Whereas Raymond Davis is a niche topic of the chattering classes in Washington D.C. in the United States, he is the mainstay of conversation across all stratum of Pakistani society and has become a national obsession in Pakistan's print and television media. Pakistanis have called for the hanging of Davis in public rallies.

From the Pakistani viewpoint, the "facts" are far less clear. Davis was first described in peculiar, ambiguous terms as a "U.S. consulate employee." He was driving his own unarmored vehicle and carrying a gun. Most diplomats in Pakistan -- American or otherwise -- now travel in armored cars. They certainly do not drive their own cars, and they generally don't carry guns.

Despite Pakistanis' assertions that he is a spy, he does not have the profile of a bona fide operative of the Central Intelligence Agency. CIA case managers are well-trained and are unlikely to conduct themselves as Davis did. However, some U.S. officials concede that he is likely a security contractor with ties to the American intelligence apparatus. This is consistent with his resume.

Speculation is rife in both countries that this dispute over Davis may come down to a showdown between Pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI, and American intelligence agencies. Both Pakistani and American analysts have told me that the two men shot likely were Davis's Pakistani intelligence detail or perhaps informants or operatives gone sour.

The view from Pakistan: "Raymond Davis kaun hai?" Who are you?

The Pakistani press raises different issues that generally are not raised in the United States and reflect the conspiracy theories that grip many Pakistanis. First, Pakistani officials doubt that Raymond Davis is the true name of the man in question. A Pakistani barrister, Iqbal Jafree, suggested that Davis came to Pakistan using a fake name. If this is the case, he has argued that another legal case may also be registered against him. He further asserted that "...the U.S. authorities also have acknowledged Davis is not his real name." My examination of the U.S. press has not revealed that this possibility has been suggested.

Second, while some diplomats may be authorized to carry legal firearms, Pakistani observers claim that Davis's possession and use of a firearm was illegal under Pakistani laws. This reinforces Pakistan's vexation with what they perceive as U.S. impunity and further outrages Pakistanis who embrace various conspiracy theories about Blackwater/Xe Services and its ilk running around Pakistan, whose activities are shrouded in complete opacity. These conspiracy theories are given ballast by the actual presence of people like Raymond Davis: an ostensible "security contractor" of some variety adds "ghee" to this fire.

Third, the Pakistani media -- as well as some international media -- dilate upon the reports that he got out of his vehicle and shot his victims in the back. U.S. courts would likely reject claims of self defense if an alleged victim shot his purported assailants in the back. However, U.S. officials privately note that the individuals fled after the first shot was fired from a frontal position, thus negating the claims that Davis first fired into their backs.

Fourth, further fuelling Pakistan's deepest suspicions are the reports in the Pakistani media that a camera was recovered from Davis upon his arrest. His camera reportedly contained "photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan army bunkers on the eastern border with India were found in the camera." Pakistani media outlets have made these photos available to the public. It remains to be confirmed that these videos and photos were actually recovered from Davis's camera, much less what his intentions were in taking these images if he actually did so. However, many Pakistanis accept the authenticity of the footage and its worrisome implications as a matter of fact.

Fifth, the U.S.'s central claim that Mr. Davis has diplomatic immunity is fundamentally contested in Pakistan. Some of my contacts here in Lahore claim that he was not issued a visa on a diplomatic passport and thus the ex post facto claims to diplomatic immunity is a legal, not diplomatic affair.

However, these interpretations are flawed even if they are widely believed. As one thoughtful Pakistani commentator, Raza Rumi, recently explained

If the sending state declares someone a diplomat and the receiving state accepts him, that's the end of the matter. Those who rant that Davis' visa mentions &#8216;Official Business' and he's a mere contractor need to get their facts right. Pakistan's diplomatic visa does not carry the words &#8216;Diplomatic Visa' imprinted on it. When Pakistani authorities endorse a visa saying &#8216;Official Business' on a diplomatic passport, they recognize that the person is travelling to our country under diplomatic immunity. If he stays here on assignment, he gets a diplomatic ID card with his immunity status printed on its back.

Rumi rightly asks how it is possible that Davis could be in Pakistan for three years if his status were ambiguous. He could have been declared "persona non grata" for his suspicious activities long before the current encounter. These questions have a simple answer: this is an orchestrated media frenzy galvanized by an inflammatory ambiguity deliberately fostered by the Pakistani government.

Finally, if the media spectacle were not provocative enough, the suicide of the widow of one of the slain, Mohammad Faheem, has further inflamed Pakistani sentiments about the case and strengthened their resolve to try Davis as a cold-blooded murderer.

The end game

The Raymond Davis issue is iconic of the challenges of U.S.-Pakistani relations.

In some sense, the Pakistani public has made Davis a public catharsis. He is not the first individual to push the envelope of transparency, much less the legal status of diplomatic immunity. Last summer while I was in Pakistan, a U.S. embassy employee crushed a Pakistani citizen to death in his vehicle. It was reportedly the third such incident over week. In 2009, an allegedly drunk U.S. diplomat, ignored a red light and careened his Prado jeep (LG-1) into a fire-brigade vehicle, causing Rs 2.5 million loss (some $29,000) in damages.

Pakistani anger over Davis is also layered upon simmering anger over the inaccurately maligned U.S. drone program. Pakistanis prefer to characterize the program as trampling Pakistani sovereignty and are loathe to acknowledge that the program operates with precision, with the Pakistani government's permission, from Pakistani soil and with Pakistani intelligence input.

Davis also outrages Pakistanis because he is not the first "defense" contractor to vex Pakistanis and raise suspicions about their varied activities in the country. The U.S. use of Blackwater/Xe Services to protect Dyncorp's construction of a Frontier Corps training facility near Peshawar discomfited residents of the frontier city. Absurdly, the Pakistani Taliban have been able to exploit these suspicions to blame the firm for terrorist attacks in Peshawar.

Pakistani president Asif Ali Zardari's party, the PPP, has had internal rifts about how best to deal with the imbroglio. Given Zardari's weak government, the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz Sharif (Zardari's Punjab-based political opponents) is taking maximal advantage of his predicament. It can do so safely as the party has no responsibility for actually contending with the explosive bilateral fiasco. The Zardari government, for now, appears to have outsourced resolution of the awkward situation to Pakistan's activist courts despite the fact that this is a Foreign Office issue -- not that of the courts.

However, Pakistan's activist courts are increasingly making policy rather than merely interpreting Pakistan's laws. More troubling is the potential likelihood that underneath the justice's cloaks is the color of the army's khakis. Indeed, Pakistani observers note that Pakistan's judiciary may have expanded its influence under the protective umbrella of the army's support.

Pakistani author and analyst, Ahmed Rashid, recently noted the "extraordinary cooperation" between the army and justices in recent years. Rashid also observed that the courts are less inclined to pursue the army's alleged human-rights violations. In contrast, cases that undermine and weaken the government occupy prime time at the bench. If the army has some influence behind the courts, the fate of Raymond Davis is ambiguous at best given the Pakistani Army's fraught views towards Washington and its intelligence agencies.

Given the legal clarity of the matter, a bothersome question persists: what elements of the Pakistani government are stoking these dangerous, populist sentiments and to what end? Is this yet another signal that Islamabad does not want to the strategic relationship that Washington continues to peddle with naïve optimism?

In the end, despite the questionable positioning of Pakistan's judiciary on Pakistan's democratic fabric and the likelihood that Davis' diplomatic status is not a judicial matter, there may be some marginal benefit from this absurd drama.

It is unprecedented that the U.S. government has been compelled to present evidence about the activities of its mission and personnel in Pakistan. The U.S. government will have to present evidence about the nature of the position of Raymond Davis in Pakistan's courts. While this is a tedious and gratuitous predicament, it may be a long overdue occasion to cast much-needed transparency upon the activities of the U.S. government in Pakistan and the nature of its ties to various Pakistani agencies, which may have some complicity in this tragic affair. This may be good for Americans and Pakistanis alike, even if it threatens to further undermine the U.S.-Pakistan relationship.

C. Christine Fair is an assistant professor at Georgetown University, Center for Peace and Security Studies and the author of the political cookbook, Cuisines of the Axis of Evil and Other Irritating States and Pakistan's Madrassah Challenge: Militancy and Religious Education in Pakistan.


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## JonAsad

Rig Vedic said:


> How credible is this EU Times?
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the original source: CIA Spy Captured Giving Nuclear Bomb To Terrorists | EUTimes.net


 
I dont know about EU NEWS credibility-
This article is also hosted at 
Davis was giving Nuke material to Qaeda: Report
and honestly i dont know Zee News credibility aswell- You tell me-

We should be looking at ANI credibility not the website who hosts ANI news- ANI is from where the original news generated from-


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## Awesome

Rig Vedic said:


> How credible is this EU Times?
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the original source: CIA Spy Captured Giving Nuclear Bomb To Terrorists | EUTimes.net


 
Been also reported by Zee News... And several others:

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Raymond+Davis+Russia


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## Rig Vedic

Glorious Resolve said:


> I dont know about EU NEWS credibility-
> This article is also hosted at
> Davis was giving Nuke material to Qaeda: Report
> and honestly i dont know Zee News credibility aswell- You tell me-



Zee refers to EU Times. 

That does not mean that this angle is not worth investigating ... keep an open mind.


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## ajtr

I wonder wat makes indians to take sides of usa in Raymond Davis case even after india's experience with usa in David headly(daud gilani) episode.Indians on PDF seems to vehemently supporting usa for the wrong cause. If its not their hatred for pakistan wat makes them do it then why do indians crib on pdf when pakistanis pay by same hatred.


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## The HBS Guy

ajtr said:


> I wonder wat makes indians to take sides of usa in Raymond Davis case even after india's experience with usa in David headly(daud gilani) episode.Indians on PDF seems to vehemently supporting usa for the wrong cause. If its not their hatred for pakistan wat makes them do it then why do indians crib on pdf when pakistanis pay by same hatred.


 
How conveniently you forget that India is the country where USA is most loved outside the USA. 

I don't care about the world but the US has given me, personally, alsmost everything that I have in life today and I'm not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of Indians in India and in the US who owe so much to the US. 

It's only natural.

Oh and BTW, as far as this particular case is concerned, the Pakistanis cannot cry hoarse because they have themselves blown apart all international conventions and practices. 

They're setting a very bad precedent as far as international diplomacy is concerned. All thanks to their failed foreign office.

Also, India's experience with the US in the Headley case has been pretty satisfactory. We could never have hoped to get him extradited to India but the US has given our agencies unprecedented access to him. There are many things we've come to know about the modus operandi behind 26/11. All thanks to the access provided to Headley by the US.


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## Rig Vedic

The HBS Guy said:


> How conveniently you forget that India is the country where USA is most loved outside the USA.
> 
> I don't care about the world but the US has given me, personally, alsmost everything that I have in life today and I'm not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of Indians in India and in the US who owe so much to the US.
> 
> It's only natural.


 
Nations act on the basis of interests ... be friends with everybody, no need to be emotional.


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## The HBS Guy

Rig Vedic said:


> Nations act on the basis of interests (of ruling elites) ... no need to be emotional.


 
Nobody's being emotional here. I'm just stating a fact as to why Indians favor the US so much. 

We have gained a lot from the US. That cannot be denied.


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## Rafael

The HBS Guy said:


> How conveniently you forget that India is the country where USA is most loved outside the USA.
> 
> I don't care about the world but the US has given me, personally, alsmost everything that I have in life today and I'm not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of Indians in India and in the US who owe so much to the US.
> 
> It's only natural.
> 
> *Oh and BTW, as far as this particular case is concerned, the Pakistanis cannot cry hoarse because they have themselves blown apart all international conventions and practices.
> 
> They're setting a very bad precedent as far as international diplomacy is concerned. All thanks to their failed foreign office*.
> 
> Also, India's experience with the US in the Headley case has been pretty satisfactory. We could never have hoped to get him extradited to India but the US has given our agencies unprecedented access to him. There are many things we've come to know about the modus operandi behind 26/11. All thanks to the access provided to Headley by the US.



Why dont you Indians STFU when you dont know a shi*t about whats happening in Pakistan? And btw, its US who is setting a bad precedent by asking immunity for a criminal!


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## Rig Vedic

The HBS Guy said:


> Nobody's being emotional here. I'm just stating a fact as to why Indians favor the US so much.
> 
> We have gained a lot from the US. That cannot be denied.



It is not so simple ... the US was supporting Pakistan while Bengalis were being massacred in 1971. That does not mean, however, that India and the US should not be friends ... anyway, this is getting off-topic.


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## JonAsad

Rig Vedic said:


> Zee refers to EU Times.
> 
> That does not mean that this angle is not worth investigating ... keep an open mind.


 
Yup i agree-- the original source is David Booth notoriously known as Sorcha Faal-- A conspiracy theorist-
original copy is hosted at- CIA Spy Captured Giving Nuclear Bomb To Terrorists
that voids it all- and Honeslty i am glad- CIA is not mad enough- to carry such acts-


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## Developereo

F86 Saber said:


> Question....... Are you Mastan Khan with double ID?
> I think RR bhai has comprehensively explained just one page back why US is not in a position to attack Pakistan even if they are crazy enough to rage war for only one person.
> Although i agree with you that Pakistan may not be able to match USA bullet to bullet but we have seen in the past how countries much smaller and with lesser capabilities than Pakistan have stood up to USA and forced them to bend and take one up the ......... From distant past North Korea and Vietnam to recent past Libya, Cuba, Venezuela and most recent Iran, all of them have refused to budge under US pressure and have survived through wars even.
> I understand that for nearly 63 years our rulers have been bending over for USA but there's always so much one can take. All it requires is one small incident and it can trigger events as huge as the French Revolution and the recent events in gulf. Its about time US realizes this.


 
The US will play very dirty. They may not attack Pakistan directly, but they will increase support for TTP, BLA and all kinds of troublemakers within Pakistan.

And, no, I am not MK. I agree with him on some issues, not on others.



Glorious Resolve said:


> We should be looking at ANI credibility not the website who hosts ANI news- ANI is from where the original news generated from-



ANI is based in New Delhi.



ajtr said:


> I wonder wat makes indians to take sides of usa in Raymond Davis case even after india's experience with usa in David headly(daud gilani) episode.Indians on PDF seems to vehemently supporting usa for the wrong cause. If its not their hatred for pakistan wat makes them do it then why do indians crib on pdf when pakistanis pay by same hatred.


 
You will hear all sorts of fake, cheap speeches from Indian trolls, but the only thing that matters is that the same Indian trolls are supportive of Israel, Islamophobia, and anything anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan. Haters gotta hate; they can't help it.


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## JonAsad

Sohni Dharti said:


> ANI is based in New Delhi.


 
- ANI quoted by (zee news and others) picked the news from EU Times-- and EU Times picked it directly from conspiracy theorist website WhatDoesItMean.Com

Tells a lot about the credibility of all the parties involved.



Sohni Dharti said:


> You will hear all sorts of fake, cheap speeches from Indian trolls, but the only thing that matters is that the same Indian trolls are supportive of Israel, Islamophobia, and anything anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan. Haters gotta hate; they can't help it.



Agreed! its just blind hatred- thats all-


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## The HBS Guy

raheel1 said:


> Why dont you Indians STFU when you dont know a shi*t about whats happening in Pakistan? And btw, its US who is setting a bad precedent by asking immunity for a criminal!



No need to get worked up. There's a set precedent as to what is to be done in case an arrested foreign national claims diplomatics immunity. 

The FO of the host country must first confirm his status before he is arrested. 

You arrested RD and have still not confirmed his status. 

You departed from all the set international conventions by this action of yours.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> The FO of the host country must first confirm his status before he is arrested.


 
You must understand this- his status from FO is confirmed- He got No Immunity-- Pakistan was not in a position to arrest an American breaking all the diplomatic norms- Had it been a fact that he got diplomatic immunity- he had been long gone- GoP had got some thing on him so it took that decision to hold him-


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> You must understand this- his status from FO is confirmed--


 
When did that happen? I'd definitely like to see the source/link. And please don't post that video of Qureshi's press conference. He was not the FM at the time he made his comment. 

Please show me the official statement issued by the FO explicitly stating that RD does not have diplomatic immunity.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> When did that happen? I'd definitely like to see the source/link. And please don't post that video of Qureshi's press conference. He was not the FM at the time he made his comment.
> 
> Please show me the official statement issued by the FO explicitly stating that RD does not have diplomatic immunity.


 
Dont act like a kid-- get the sense of my post- and make halwa out of it- these things do not come out open for us common people to see- i meant his non diplomatic immunity status-- is a leverage GoP is using- things would have been quite different had it been the opposite case-


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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> How conveniently you forget that India is the country where USA is most loved outside the USA.
> 
> I don't care about the world but the US has given me, personally, alsmost everything that I have in life today and I'm not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of Indians in India and in the US who owe so much to the US.
> 
> It's only natural.


Ur personal love for usa or should i say boot liciking of usa is wat u call as natural reactin then why o u people crib in other threads when pakistanis pay u by the same coin.



> Oh and BTW, as far as this particular case is concerned, the Pakistanis cannot cry hoarse because they have themselves blown apart all international conventions and practices.
> 
> They're setting a very bad precedent as far as international diplomacy is concerned. All thanks to their failed foreign office.


Its for the pakistani courts to decide if RD enjoys immunity or not.And still its not been proven in courts so how can u jump the gun so soon saying pakistan has broken the geneva convention.


> Also, India's experience with the US in the Headley case has been pretty satisfactory. We could never have hoped to get him extradited to India but the US has given our agencies unprecedented access to him. There are many things we've come to know about the modus operandi behind 26/11. All thanks to the access provided to Headley by the US.


Of all the indian govts. Manmohan singh's govt is the most pro american and even then from his own govt from MEA and HM at various times aired their dissatisfaction with usa over david headley issue as late as just before the Obama's visit too.from press to B.R.raman to vikram sood to siddharth varadrajan etc everybody has pointed out Indian govt's. dis satisfaction with usa over this issue.Now right explanation is that u being in love with usa or better i say ur boot-licking of usa made u to comment like indian govt is satisfied with usa over headley issue.

bottom-line is ....indian establishment still not satisfied with usa over headley issue...period.

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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Dont act like a kid-- these things do not come out open for us common people to see- i meant his non diplomatic immunity status-- is a leverage GoP is using- things would have been quite different had it been the opposite case-


 
I'm not asking you for a scanned copy of the statement. That would not be possible for you. I know that.

I'm only asking you to point me to a report from a credible news source reporting Mr. Abdul Basit (the FO's spokesman) stating that RD does not have diplomatic immunity.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------




ajtr said:


> Ur personal love for usa or should i say boot liciking of usa is wat u call as natural reactin then why o u people crib in other threads when pakistanis pay u by the same coin.
> 
> Its for the pakistani courts to decide if RD enjoys immunity or not.And still its not been proven in courts so how can u jump the gun so soon saying pakistan has broken the geneva convention.
> Of all the indian govts. Manmohan singh's govt is the most pro american and even then from his own govt from MEA and HM at various times aired their dissatisfaction with usa over david headley issue as late as just before the Obama's visit too.from press to B.R.raman to vikram sood to siddharth varadrajan etc everybody has pointed out Indian govt's. dis satisfaction with usa over this issue.Now right explanation is that u being in love with usa or better i say ur boot-licking of usa made u to comment like indian govt is satisfied with usa over headley issue.
> 
> bottom-line is ....indian establishment still not satisfied with usa over headley issue...period.


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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> *When did that happen? I'd definitely like to see the source/link.* And please don't post that video of Qureshi's press conference. He was not the FM at the time he made his comment.
> 
> Please show me the official statement issued by the FO explicitly stating that RD does not have diplomatic immunity.


go to back pages of this same thread u'll find loads of articles and video posted here which confirms RD doesnt enjoy diplomatic immunity.check out even his passport scans posted right in this thread.

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## greatsequence



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## The HBS Guy

ajtr said:


> go to back pages of this same thread u'll find loads of articles and video posted here which confirms RD doesnt enjoy diplomatic immunity.check out even his passport scans posted right in this thread.


 
None of the past pages have what I've asked for. 

Why? Because it has not happened yet. 

After so many days, Pakistani FO is yet to issue a formal official statement on RD's diplomatic status.

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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> Actually I've witnessed your abusive capacities with that post in which you ridiculed the millions of people who travelled from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India in 1947 calling them 'darpok' and what not.
> 
> And you actually got away with it.
> 
> You enjoy a special treatment here. I, like others, have to use my brain.
> 
> And my brain forbids me from wrestling with a pig.


If ever u had grey matter in ur brain u would have used it instead of doing brain farting over here coz u r being blinded by ur love for uncle sam so u r unable to think rationally.

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## The HBS Guy

ajtr said:


> If ever u had grey matter in ur brain u would have used it instead of doing brain farting over here coz u r being blinded by ur love for uncle sam so u r unable to think rationally.


 
*Of course. How could I forget? You are the only one in this world capable of thinking rationally. So forgive me for I'm not as blessed as you are, neither by the mods nor by the Gods. *

*Now if you'd please excuse me. *


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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> None of the past pages have what I've asked for.
> 
> Why? Because it has not happened yet.
> 
> After so many days, Pakistani FO is yet to issue a formal official statement on RD's diplomatic status.


see ur one more lie got nailed due to ur blind love for uncle sam.....if its not proven yet then how can u claim that pakistan has voilated geneva convention.so untill pakistani court decides,RD cant be considered as diplomat.

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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> *Of course. How could I forget? You are the only one in this world capable of thinking rationally. So forgive me for I'm not as blessed as you are, neither by the mods nor by the Gods. *
> 
> *Now if you'd please excuse me. *


ur wish granted bachcha....u r excused now u can go make love with uncle sam..................

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## The HBS Guy

ajtr said:


> see ur one more lie got nailed due to ur blind love for uncle sam.....if its not proven yet then how can u claim that pakistan has voilated geneva convention.so untill pakistani court decides,RD cant be considered as diplomat.


 
Hey Ram! Listen, if you need help with English, pay me first.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> I'm not asking you for a scanned copy of the statement. That would not be possible for you. I know that.
> 
> I'm only asking you to point me to a report from a credible news source reporting Mr. Abdul Basit (the FO's spokesman) stating that RD does not have diplomatic immunity.


 
Mr abdul Basit is not the current FO spokesman-- they will keep on changing until they do not play along- so their statements doesn't matter-


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## The HBS Guy

ajtr said:


> ur wish granted bachcha....u r excused now u can go make love with uncle sam..................


 
Ok aunty. Thanks a lot for stopping the trolling.


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> Mr abdul Basit is not the current FO spokesman-- they will keep on changing until they do not play along- so their statements doesn't matter-


 
Ok so whoever is the spokesman has to issue a formal statement. Yaar it's really very simple and you know how this works. 

Without an official statement, Pakistan's action of arresting RD will be considered departing from internationally accepted conventions and practices.

First confirm his status.

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## ajtr

The HBS Guy said:


> Hey Ram! Listen, if you need help with English, pay me first.


Hare krishna.nahi sir ji humein to apni desi angrezi hi pasand hai.humko ksisi gore se love thode hi karna hai aapki tarah..............

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## JonAsad

Glorious Resolve said:


> Mr abdul Basit is not the current FO spokesman-- they will keep on changing until they do not play along- so their statements doesn't matter-


 
and thats the only reason i see-- why Pakistan FO cannot confirm (or do not want to confirm) the official status of RD-


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> and thats the only reason i see-- why Pakistan FO cannot confirm (or do not want to confirm) the official status of RD-


 
Reason does not matter my dear, action does. As long as the FO doesn't confirm RD's status, you're treading a slippery slope. 

BTW, why do you think it's taken them so long for such a simple thing? All they had to do was to check their records. It should be taking so long, you know.

What I think is happening is that Nawaz Sharif is playing politics and PPP is in a fix because of that. 

Nawaz Sharif is playing dirty politic with such a sensitive issue.


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Ok so whoever is the spokesman has to issue a formal statement. Yaar it's really very simple and you know how this works.
> 
> Without an official statement, Pakistan's action of arresting RD will be considered departing from internationally accepted conventions and practices.
> 
> First confirm his status.


 
Dekho bhai- Shah Mehmood Qureshi resigned or Kicked out- Allegedly he thought RD did not have diplomatic immunity-

Ms Fauzia Wahab- Kicked out- Because she thought RD is has diplomatic immunity-

FO spokesman Abdul Basit- had to quit- for unknown reasons-

Acknowledge the staus or Refute it- either way you will be hammered- So no one will take the risk and make statement publically- Officially-

What they know or say- will be used in courts- and the Courts will decide whether he was a diplomat or not- or he got the immunity or not-

RD case is a sinking ship-no one want to be associated with it-

P.S There is difference between being just a Diplomat- and Being a Diplomat with Diplomatic Immunity- and then there is level of immunities given to diplomats on the basis of their nature of work- I think you know that-


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> I think you know that-


 
Yes I do but I, like anybody else, am unable to comment as long as his status is not confirmed.


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## r3alist

there is no real need for indians to troll this thread up is there?






> hese questions have a simple answer: this is an orchestrated media frenzy galvanized by an inflammatory ambiguity deliberately fostered by the Pakistani government.hese questions have a simple answer: this is an orchestrated media frenzy galvanized by an inflammatory ambiguity deliberately fostered by the Pakistani government.



the above is from christine fair's article.

after she accuses the pakistani's of having the mindset of conspiracy theorists what does she do herself? conjure her own one up.

a pretty poor article from her, what people in the west time and time again do not understand is that pakistan has uncovered a fundamental security issue and they are entitled to care about it, and push this message home as much as anyone in the US is about their own concerns.


whether its pak govt. or americans at fault the point is that it has to change!!


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## JonAsad

The HBS Guy said:


> Reason does not matter my dear, action does. As long as the FO doesn't confirm RD's status, you're treading a slippery slope.
> 
> BTW, why do you think it's taken them so long for such a simple thing? All they had to do was to check their records. It should be taking so long, you know.
> 
> What I think is happening is that Nawaz Sharif is playing politics and PPP is in a fix because of that.
> 
> Nawaz Sharif is playing dirty politic with such a sensitive issue.


 
There were reports from FO that RD does not have full immunity-
Then there were reports that RD has immunity-

In the end it can go either way- and personally i dont think- GoP has not thought about the implications if Immunity is confirmed- 

About Nawaz Shareef- he will score some political points- but in the end- he will have to submit to uncle sam-- if he ever wants to be President again-


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## The HBS Guy

Glorious Resolve said:


> About Nawaz Shareef- he will score some political points- but in the end- he will have to submit to uncle sam-- if he ever wants to be President again-


 
lol yeah that's so right. If he made it too difficult for the US, he can for sure kiss his chances of ever becoming the PM/President goodbye.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The HBS Guy said:


> lol yeah that's so right. If he made it too difficult for the US, he can for sure kiss his chances of ever becoming the PM/President goodbye.


 
Votes determine who gets ellected - and he already won his province by his tough stance against davis

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## HRK

If some has not posted it earlier an intresting news about RD

Link: Is Raymond Davis a


ISLAMABAD: The United States government was unaware that Raymond Davis was hooked on &#8216;naswar,&#8217; and in all probability he is now undergoing withdrawal symptoms, unless there is a friendly guard nearby to offer him some, or the jail doctors recommends weaning him away from what is a legal form of tobacco.

When the US Embassy was approached, they appeared unaware of Davis&#8217;s &#8216;desi&#8217; addiction. Abrupt stopping of &#8216;naswar&#8217; intake can be uncomfortable as junkies discover, if they are without their hourly &#8216;fix&#8217;. Withdrawal symptoms include headache and anxiety and anger.

According to a Bannu shopkeeper, the price of one packet of Bannu Naswar is Rs7. &#8220;One packet is enough for thirty pinches of &#8216;naswar.&#8217; 

According to the challan by the city police in Lahore, a packet of &#8216;naswar&#8217;, was also recovered from Davis&#8217;s car, amongst other personal and lethal items that an undercover agent on active duty is expected to have with him at all times. US troops stationed inside Afghanistan are known to enjoy &#8216;naswar&#8217; and have become hooked to it. Davis in all probability must have picked up the habit during his long stays in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. It also reflects on the company he was keeping at the time. The problem of &#8216;naswar&#8217; like chewing &#8216;pan&#8217; is that one has to spit it out after a while.

Whether the Americans including Davis have found a socially correct way to deal with this aspect is unknown or did he spit it out of his car window?

According to Wikipedia, &#8216;naswar is held in the mouth for 10 to 15 minutes. If it is chewed it produces a bad taste in the mouth. Usually, the consumption varies but mostly people take it on an hourly basis.&#8217; It is primarily used in Central Asia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Sweden and India.

&#8220;Once I was sitting next to a Norwegian at a meeting in Europe and was surprised to see him enjoying &#8216;naswar&#8217;&#8221;, a Pakistani diplomat told The News. It is predominantly used by members of the Pashtun ethnic groups. Nowadays people of other regions i.e. Punjab, Sindh and Baluchistan also use it and the number of addict people is increasing day by day. 

Some of the great varieties of naswar are found in different parts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province in Pakistan, but Bannu is especially famous for it. There are different brands of &#8216;naswar&#8217; in the provinces such as &#8220;Toor Khamar&#8221;, &#8220;Missile&#8221;, &#8220;Safarish Khan&#8221;, &#8220;Lucky&#8221; etc. Toor Khamar &#8216;naswar&#8217; is prepared in Shahbaz Garhi, Pakhtoonkhwah, while Safarish Khan and Lucky are prepared in Havelian, Pakhtoonkhwah and Abbottabad, Hazara Division, Pakhtoonkhwah. 

The News received telephone calls from the Fata area, and two calls from Waziristan when this correspondent had in an international Pushto programme, mentioned Davis&#8217;s love for &#8216;naswar&#8217;. &#8220;This is the only good thing we have heard about this American killer. We are glad that he has picked up this healthy habit from his Pushtun friends and acquaintances,&#8221; said a gentleman who identified himself as Wazir Khan.

Some of Khan&#8217;s friends had this to say, &#8220;So much attention is being given to three boys killed in Lahore by an American. What about the Pakhtuns who are being killed like flies by US drones? What will it take to get kind of worldwide attention?&#8221;


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## VCheng

Whatever one's point of view, the most worrisome aspect of this entire affair is the circus-like spectacle of buffoonery and confusion that is named the Government of Pakistan these days. The sad and sorry performance of official structures is yet one more piece of evidence that indicates just how deep the rot and decay has permeated them.

Whatever the resolution of this incident is, the impressions, conclusions and future responses generated by this confused disaster will come back to haunt Pakistan for a long time to come.

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## VelocuR

If any day any intelligent plan to kill Davis in order to save their face, then point a finger at CIA and must expel US consulates. 

Next Davis roaming around would be _no doubt_ caught.


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## HRK

The HBS Guy said:


> When did that happen? I'd definitely like to see the source/link. And please don't post that video of Qureshi's press conference. He was not the FM at the time he made his comment.
> 
> Please show me the official statement issued by the FO explicitly stating that RD does not have diplomatic immunity.


 
I would advice you to read post no. 3351 of this thread in that post a link is available of only single written official document from US about the diplomatic status of RD.


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## Pak_Sher

Pakistan needs to review all US Embassey and Consulate Staff, especially these technical advisors and auditors. Diplomats of any country should meet the Vienna Conevtion rules. Enough abuse of our hospitality.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Naswar has been used by the whities for eons----there maybe close to a 100 different brands----. For those who learnt it now----doesn't it sound funny and interesting that the goras are using naswar----what if you found out 30 or 50 or 60 years ago that they did that---. Well those of us won't be thrilled by this news---.

It is front page news in pakistan about the naswar habbit of Davis----doesn't this tell the readers that majoprity of the pakistanis know nothing or a miniscule about the habbits of the whities.

Tameem---welcome to the board----3 years and a loyal son of the earth and barely any copntribution to the cause on this board---didn't you and I have had some kind of confrontation before---where I stated the same thing----and this moderator Bezerk jumped on me---instead of keeping busy with his schedule of taking care of the flood victims---.

My boy----it is easy to jump on someone's back and make your claim----if you are so honorable and forthcoming----come participate and put your thoughts and directions on the paper.

Did I tell you the story about the FLEA THAT LIVED IN THE ELEPHANTS EAR---I gotta go to work now----when I come back---I will do so. So---hold on tight.


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## The HBS Guy

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> I would advice you to read post no. 3351 of this thread in that post a link is available of only single written official document from US about the diplomatic status of RD.


 
The US has since changed its stance and made it very clear that RD is indeed related to the US embassy in Islamabad and not to the Consulate in Lahore as was claimed earlier.

Post 3351 is irrelevant now.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Hi right back to you, Masta-Mastan

he spent some time with the aforementioned 'strange people' up in the restive north -where naswar is often consumed. I guess those people left some influence on him


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## Usama86

The HBS Guy said:


> The US has since changed its stance and made it very clear that RD is indeed related to the US embassy in Islamabad and not to the Consulate in Lahore as was claimed earlier.
> 
> Post 3351 is irrelevant now.


 
Hey HBS guy... why the FO has not taken a clear stance on the issue is anyones guess, but the *majority oppinion here in Pakistan is that since all the heavy weights in the US poltical set-up have put there weight behind diplomatic immunity for Davis this puts Pakistan govt in a difficult situation, it would now take a miracle for FO to defy its master and speak words of its own free will*. Our government thinks it cannot function without US aid and for that reason doesnot want to anger them. Now the govt is hidding behind the courts in saying that court will decide when infact it is the FO's reponsibility to speak on the matter. As of now the court has asked to submit a certificate of immunty to Davis for which the govt. has asked for 3 weeks time until then the proceeds have been stoped. Ex-Fm is ready to testify that Davis has no diplomtic immunity so the govt is stuck between a rock and a hard place hence the best way out is to buy time and find another way out. One thing is clear is that Davis at most has consular immunity which doesnot cover a grave crime like murder. *I hope you would not bring the self-defence argument up because it has been used past its expire date now, the police in its challan has clearly stated that they believe this was a cold blooded murder and have provided various reasons uncovered during investigation which if you ask i can tell you. *


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## The HBS Guy

Usama86 said:


> Hey HBS guy... why the FO has not taken a clear stance on the issue is anyones guess, but the *majority oppinion here in Pakistan is that since all the heavy weights in the US poltical set-up have put there weight behind diplomatic immunity for Davis this puts Pakistan govt in a difficult situation, it would now take a miracle for FO to defy its master and speak words of its own free will*. Our government thinks it cannot function without US aid and for that reason doesnot want to anger them. Now the govt is hidding behind the courts in saying that court will decide when infact it is the FO's reponsibility to speak on the matter. As of now the court has asked to submit a certificate of immunty to Davis for which the govt. has asked for 3 weeks time until then the proceeds have been stoped. Ex-Fm is ready to testify that Davis has no diplomtic immunity so the govt is stuck between a rock and a hard place hence the best way out is to buy time and find another way out. One thing is clear is that Davis at most has consular immunity which doesnot cover a grave crime like murder. *I hope you would not bring the self-defence argument up because it has been used past its expire date now, the police in its challan has clearly stated that they believe this was a cold blooded murder and have provided various reasons uncovered during investigation which if you ask i can tell you. *


 
My dear what you're saying is Pakistan's internal politics and problem. International conventions do not depend on Pakistan's internal problems.


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## American Eagle

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Hi right back to you, Masta-Mastan
> 
> he spent some time with the aforementioned 'strange people' up in the restive north -where naswar is often consumed. I guess those people left some influence on him



No one here in the West believes for a minute that anything other than the first police report of what was found in Davis's car exists or existed. This is a major untruth regarding naswar and is a planted, phoney story as the officials got more and more upset at the fact of this being a pure and simple failed armed robbery attempt.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

American Eagle said:


> No one here in the West believes for a minute that anything other than the first police report of what was found in Davis's car exists or existed. This is a major untruth regarding naswar and is a planted, phoney story as the officials got more and more upset at the fact of this being a pure and simple failed armed robbery attempt.


 
So many in Pakistan think that 9/11 was a inside job

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## notorious_eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Omar1984 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> These 10o nuc weapons storage would be destroyed in their storage lots----the u s knows that pak needs 4---8 hours to load, assemble and program the nucs----that is all the time to disengage them----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not going to spill out beans but i can tell you it will take less than an hour to assemble the nukes, there are several contingency plans in place to deal with several different envisioned threats. Pakistan has more than 10 nuclear weapons storage facilities, that i can guarantee you and they are evenly spread out throughout the country. Some have dummy warheads based inside them and some have real warheads, what makes you think PA has not on purpose lead the Americans to believe that storage facilities with dummy warheads are facilities with the real warheads. No doubt Americans are aware of some of the storage facilities but they are not aware of all of them. After what has happened now with all this Davis incident, expect the Pakistan Army to seal its lips when it comes to our nukes. The Americans have just shot themselves in the foot, i cant possibly imagine PA and ISI cooperating with the Americans on the same level as before unless they offer us F22 Raptors.
Click to expand...

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## Gin ka Pakistan

I think Pakistan will sooner or later will release him but this will give every diplomat in the world the right to carry weapons. Mastan can Pakistan diplomats can carry weapons in US?? for self defense and can shot any one if they think is robbing them ????


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## Usama86

The HBS Guy said:


> My dear what you're saying is Pakistan's internal politics and problem. International conventions do not depend on Pakistan's internal problems.


 
My friend not every thing in this world is in black and white. Infact everything is in grey with shades of black and white, we also want our share of the grey area in this world.


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## The HBS Guy

Usama86 said:


> My friend not every thing in this world is in black and white. Infact everything is in grey with shades of black and white, we also want our share of the grey area in this world.


 
And do you have it in you to stand up and back yourselves up when push comes to shove?

Do you have it in you to walk the talk?


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## Gin ka Pakistan

After studding set up of Iraq and Afghanistan current governments, its confirm that they are in Power as long as US is on their soil. Shitte governments in both countries came in power by supporting US presence on their soil and using US rainbows to crush Sunnis extremists. never the less you get briefcase full of $$$$ to put in Dubai s banks by supporting US. 

There is a cry in Pakistan that Punjab is becoming hub of Sunni extremist and PML (N) supports them (which is true too) and Shitte in Pakistan will do the same through their President in power to invite US rainbows like Davis to crush Sunni extremism in Punjab.

Too bad the US rainbow killed people who were not the bad guys and is in trouble. quietly every one supports Drones attacks in Pakistan as you know they target the bad guys but in Davis case he went to far.


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## Awesome

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> So many in Pakistan think that 9/11 was a inside job


 
you nailed it...


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## Awesome

American Eagle said:


> No one here in the West believes for a minute that anything other than the first police report of what was found in Davis's car exists or existed. This is a major untruth regarding naswar and is a planted, phoney story as the officials got more and more upset at the fact of this being a pure and simple failed armed robbery attempt.


 
Your British buds, aren't so convinced:

*THE UK's GUARDIAN CONFIRMS RAYMOND DAVIS IS A CIA AGENT*

American who sparked diplomatic crisis over Lahore shooting was CIA spy | World news | The Guardian



> The American who shot dead two men on a Lahore street, triggering a diplomatic crisis between Pakistan and the United States, is a CIA agent who was on assignment at the time of the incident.
> 
> Raymond Davis has been the subject of widespread speculation since he opened fire with a semi-automatic Glock pistol on the two men who had pulled up alongside his car at a red light on 25 January.
> 
> Pakistani authorities charged him with murder, but the Obama administration has insisted he is an "administrative and technical official" attached to its Lahore consulate and is entitled to diplomatic immunity.
> 
> Based on interviews in the US and Pakistan, the Guardian can confirm that the 36-year-old former special forces soldier is employed by the CIA. "It's beyond a shadow of a doubt," said a senior Pakistani intelligence official.
> 
> The revelation may complicate American efforts to free Davis, who says he acted in self-defence when he opened fire on two men, both of whom were carrying guns.
> 
> Pakistani prosecutors, who say the men were petty criminals trying to rob him at gunpoint, accuse the spy of using excessive force, getting out of his car to shoot one of them twice in the back as he ran away. The man's body was discovered 30 feet from his motorbike.
> 
> "It went way beyond what we define as self-defence. It was not commensurate with the threat," a senior police official involved in the case told the Guardian.
> 
> The Pakistani government is aware of Davis's CIA status yet has kept quiet in the face of immense American pressure to free him under the Vienna convention. Last week President Barack Obama described Davis as "our diplomat" and dispatched his chief diplomatic troubleshooter, Senator John Kerry, to Islamabad. Kerry returned home empty-handed.
> 
> Many Pakistanis are outraged at the idea of an armed American rampaging through their second largest city; some analysts have warned of Egyptian-style protests if Davis is released. The government, fearful of a furious public backlash, says it needs until 14 March to decide whether Davis enjoys immunity.
> 
> Outrage has been heightened by the death of a third man who was crushed by an American vehicle as it rushed to Davis's aid. Pakistani officials believe the vehicle's occupants were also CIA because they came from the same suburban house where Davis lived and were heavily armed.
> 
> The US refused Pakistani demands to interrogate the two men and on Sunday a senior Pakistani intelligence official said they had left the country. "They have flown the coop, they are already in America," he said.
> 
> ABC News reported that the men had the same diplomatic visa as Davis. It is not unusual for US intelligence officers, like their counterparts round the world, to carry diplomatic passports.
> 
> The US has engaged in an edgy public relations offensive to free Davis, accusing Pakistan of illegally detaining him and riding roughshod over international treaties. Angry politicians have proposed slashing Islamabad's $1.5bn (about £900m) annual aid; the state department repeatedly describes him as "a member of the administrative and technical staff of the US embassy in Islamabad".
> 
> But Washington's case is hobbled by its resounding silence on Davis's background and role. Davis served in the US special forces for 10 years before leaving in 2003 to become a private security contractor. A senior Pakistani official said he believed Davis worked with Xe, the controversial firm formerly known as Blackwater, before joining the CIA.
> 
> Pakistani suspicions about Davis's role were stoked by the equipment police confiscated from his car after the shooting: an unlicensed pistol, a long-range radio, a GPS device, an infrared torch and a camera with pictures of buildings around Lahore.
> 
> "This is not the work of a diplomat. He was doing espionage and surveillance activities," said the Punjab law minister, Rana Sanaullah, adding that he had "confirmation" that Davis was a CIA employee.
> 
> A number of US media outlets later learned about Davis's CIA role but have kept it under wraps at the request of the Obama administration, which fears that disclosure could inflame opinion in Pakistan and possibly put Davis at risk.
> 
> *A Colorado television station, 9NEWS, initially made a connection after speaking to Davis's wife, who lives outside Denver. She referred its inquiries to a number in Washington which turned out to be the CIA. The station subsequently removed the CIA reference from its website at the request of the US government.*
> 
> [Asim's note: Man I knew it, the answers to Davis's identity lie in what could be found digging around his wife!]
> 
> Nicole Vap, an executive producer, said: "Because of the safety concerns, we decided to amend the story. But it remains accurate."
> 
> The episode has badly damaged relations between the CIA and the ISI, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence spy agency. Some reports, quoting Pakistani intelligence officials, have suggested that the men Davis killed, Faizan Haider, 21, and Muhammad Faheem, 19, were ISI agents with orders to shadow Davis because he crossed an unspecified "red line".
> 
> A senior police official, however, confirmed American claims that the men were petty thieves &#8211; investigators found stolen mobile phones on their bodies, as well as small amounts of foreign currency and illegal weapons &#8211; but did not rule out an intelligence link.
> 
> A senior ISI official denied the dead men worked for the spy agency but admitted the CIA relationship had been badly damaged. "Their tactics of using good cop, bad cop do not work. We are a sovereign country and if they want to work with us, they need to develop a trusting relationship on the basis of equality. Being arrogant and demanding is not the way to do it," he said.
> 
> Tensions between the spy agencies have grown in recent months. The CIA Islamabad station chief was forced to leave in December after being named in a civil lawsuit, and the ISI was angered when its chief, General Shuja Pasha, was named in a New York lawsuit related to the 2008 Mumbai attacks.
> 
> Although the two spy services co-operate in the CIA's drone campaign along the Afghan border, there has not been a drone strike since 23 January &#8211; the longest lull since June 2009. Experts are unsure whether both events are linked.
> 
> With the next hearing scheduled for 14 March, Davis awaits his fate in Kot Lakhpat jail in Lahore. Pakistani officials say they have taken exceptional measures to ensure his safety, including ringing the prison with paramilitary Punjab Rangers. The law minister, Sanaullah, said Davis was being kept in a "high security zone" and was receiving food from visitors from the US consulate.
> 
> Sanaullah said another 140 foreigners were in the same facility, many on drugs charges. Several press reports have speculated that the authorities worry the US could try to spring Davis in what one termed a "Hollywood-style sting".
> 
> "All measures for his security have been taken," said the ISI official. "He's as safe as can be."



At least all major Pakistani news outlets are saying "He probably is a CIA spy", the British media have already announced its verdict! So you either need to redefine the word "west" or you need to change your statement. Its only the US media that is still insisting on toeing the official US line (that too I can present some cracks in their own beliefs now), others have moved on. Russians have also corroborated the story that he was a CIA spy and even went so far as to give his unit number and give two counts of criminal assistance to Pakistan's (and the American people's by large) enemies.

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## DV RULES

notorious_eagle said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not going to spill out beans but i can tell you it will take less than an hour to assemble the nukes, there are several contingency plans in place to deal with several different envisioned threats. Pakistan has more than 10 nuclear weapons storage facilities, that i can guarantee you and they are evenly spread out throughout the country. Some have dummy warheads based inside them and some have real warheads, what makes you think PA has not on purpose lead the Americans to believe that storage facilities with dummy warheads are facilities with the real warheads. No doubt Americans are aware of some of the storage facilities but they are not aware of all of them. After what has happened now with all this Davis incident, expect the Pakistan Army to seal its lips when it comes to our nukes. The Americans have just shot themselves in the foot, i cant possibly imagine PA and ISI cooperating with the Americans on the same level as before unless they offer us F22 Raptors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good points,
> but a very few aware of this facts. So let them in status of unawareness. Pakistan well aware from his defense.
Click to expand...


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## Awesome

Ok going to put this thread on hold, as I'm sure the next few days would be ruled by Raymond's CIA status being confirmed. Will re-open it as that subsides and other matters come in.

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## The HBS Guy

^^ This will flood the forum with other such threads!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

> At least all major Pakistani news outlets are saying "He probably is a CIA spy", the British media have already announced its verdict! So you either need to redefine the word "west" or you need to change your statement. Its only the US media that is still insisting on toeing the official US line (that too I can present some cracks in their own beliefs now), others have moved on. Russians have also corroborated the story that he was a CIA spy and even went so far as to give his unit number and give two counts of criminal assistance to Pakistan's (and the American people's by large) enemies.



this needs to be given a lot of attention......

it seems in this particular case, you dig a two meter grave and you could find 2 or 3 bodies

dig a four meter grave and you could find 75

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