# Pakistan Military Officer Pay Scale/Recruitment



## solid snake

I have recently been wondering what it would be like to join one of the three main branches of the Pakistan military as an officer. I am pretty sure I can pass the various tests/interviews, so that is not a problem. The biggest concern for me is the pay scale. Does anyone know how much officers are paid per rank? I've tried to search for the answer on the internet, but to no avail. Also, I have realized that the maximum age to apply for an officer position is around 21. Why is that? I know that the forces educate their cadets and award them an undergraduate degree, but why does the military exclude people who complete degrees as civilians? I'm currently in college and won't be done with my education until I am at least 22, which means if I want to join the Pakistan military, I will have to abandon my education and the thousands of dollars I have so far spent will go down the drain. The rule dosen't make sense to me.


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## EagleEyes

I think this is something which only the recruitment offices can help you with. I have no idea.


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## solid snake

WebMaster said:


> I think this is something which only the recruitment offices can help you with. I have no idea.



The only way I can contact them is via the internet, and as far as I know they don't have any email addresses I could send my queries to.


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## EagleEyes

Try these links.

http://www.paknavy.gov.pk/career_off.htm

http://www.joinpakarmy.gov.pk/


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## PakShaheen

It would be nice if you could post their replies here.
Thanks


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## Muradk

solid snake said:


> The only way I can contact them is via the internet, and as far as I know they don't have any email addresses I could send my queries to.



Solid snake your question has no one answer I will just give you a small example. 
*Pakistan Air Force.*
2 main branches of PAF , *GDP* ( General Duty Pilot ) and *Engg*. Both when 
Passout are 17grade but GDP gets an extra pay which is flying pay Rs 5000 extra. when a fighter pilot is on ADA he gets RS 350 per night , now he can do from 10 to 15 days a month on ADA. If you are lucky you get to do mail run which starts from karachi to Chaklala going to every base picking up confidential mail and droping at chaklala you get Rs1000 per day. 
Now you get suspended from fighter flying you can join Transport 6 Sqd Chaklala fly C-130 all around the world and make **** loads of Dollors an avarage pilot on C-130 makes 20000 to 30000 thousand dollors a year in TADA picking up spareparts from USA, Uk Germany , Franch ,UAE, Peru, South Africa, China. Now GDPs and Transport pilots dont get along each think they are more than the other.
*Army* has its own system , *Navy* has it own but to say that every one gets the same is not right .
The best way to find out it is ask DPR ( Director Puplic Relations ) In AHQ or GHQ or NHQ you right them a letter and ask they will reply for sure, that is there job.


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## solid snake

Guys, I'm sorry I got busy with exams and forgot about this thread.



Muradk said:


> Solid snake your question has no one answer I will just give you a small example.
> *Pakistan Air Force.*
> 2 main branches of PAF , *GDP* ( General Duty Pilot ) and *Engg*. Both when
> Passout are 17grade but GDP gets an extra pay which is flying pay Rs 5000 extra. when a fighter pilot is on ADA he gets RS 350 per night , now he can do from 10 to 15 days a month on ADA. If you are lucky you get to do mail run which starts from karachi to Chaklala going to every base picking up confidential mail and droping at chaklala you get Rs1000 per day.
> Now you get suspended from fighter flying you can join Transport 6 Sqd Chaklala fly C-130 all around the world and make **** loads of Dollors an avarage pilot on C-130 makes 20000 to 30000 thousand dollors a year in TADA picking up spareparts from USA, Uk Germany , Franch ,UAE, Peru, South Africa, China. Now GDPs and Transport pilots dont get along each think they are more than the other.
> *Army* has its own system , *Navy* has it own but to say that every one gets the same is not right .
> The best way to find out it is ask DPR ( Director Puplic Relations ) In AHQ or GHQ or NHQ you right them a letter and ask they will reply for sure, that is there job.



Thank you for that information! Wow, I never knew C-130 pilots can get that loaded  
I guess the pay in the PAF is not bad at all. Combine this with free healthcare, 50% air and rail travel and the fact that flying is the coolest job in the world, and you've got yourself a great career.

edit: WebMaster, thanks for the links. I will write to them and post the replies here if I get any.

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## Xeric

solid snake said:


> I have recently been wondering what it would be like to join one of the three main branches of the Pakistan military as an officer. I am pretty sure I can pass the various tests/interviews, so that is not a problem.


Ahan!
Guud to see the confidence.


> The biggest concern for me is the pay scale.


Viola!


> is around 21.


It is 22 for intermediate and 23 for graduates


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## Kasrkin

*"I am pretty sure I can pass the various tests/interviews, so that is not a problem..."*

DONT DO THAT! They look for a very specific sort and you have to work very hard to become that. The process is tough, from start to end I'd be surprised if even 10&#37; make it to PMA. You need to be tougher, faster, more resilient and sure-footed than an average person your age. You need to start climbing ropes and running (not jogging) a mile every day. You need to refine your general knowledge (particularly Pakistan specific) and you even need to revise your intermediate course material. 

And I&#8217;m going to be honest with you, the pay is not much. If its money you&#8217;re after (nothing wrong with that) then you might as well forget about the army. I can give you a list of the officers pay, but it is not impressive. Most people join up for prestige, status, respect, honor, tradition or simply love for soldiery. BUT even from those not all of them find comradeship, some get disappointed and leave early while others find the going higher up increasingly tough. It usually takes men of supreme dedication, self-confidence and ability to reach the top. The Army is something not suited to most people in this increasingly money-oriented world.

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## Jako

Have you guys seen this thread dates back to 2007???


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## qsaark

Kasrkin said:


> Most people join up for prestige, status, respect, honor, tradition or simply love for soldiery. BUT even from those not all of them find comradeship, some get disappointed and leave early while others find the going higher up increasingly tough. It usually takes men of supreme dedication, self-confidence and ability to reach the top.


It appears to me that a large percentage of those who join Army for prestige, status, respect, honor, tradition or simply love for soldiery really never makes up to the top level where make or break kind of decisions are made. Otherwise blunders such as Operation Gibralter, Operation Grand Slam, 1971 war, Siachen, and Kargil would have never happened. A majority of those who made up to the top ranks may have all the supreme dedication, self-confidence and ability to reach to the top but not professionalism. And yes, money is not there as much, but once you make it to the rank of a one star and beyond, than money is indeed their, lots of it. In fact there is also a very good chance of becoming the sole owner of the country. After all four of the COAS plus one Major General ruled the country.


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## Kasrkin

> It appears to me that a large percentage of those who join Army for prestige, status, respect, honor, tradition or simply love for soldiery really never makes up to the top level where make or break kind of decisions are made. Otherwise blunders such as Operation Gibralter, Operation Grand Slam, 1971 war, Siachen, and Kargil would have never happened.



I'm aware that some Pakistanis are given to believe that Pakistan's entire military history is one long list of humiliations, but its not. Professionalism is there in the high ranks and has been for quite a while, that should be blindingly obvious given that we've maintained a balance based on credible deterrence against a much larger, resourceful and stable rival. Now that being said, ofcourse sometimes bad worms make it to the top (which happens everywhere) and I won&#8217;t disagree with you if you said that folks like General Niazi were not skilled enough to command the number of troops entrusted to him. However &#8216;mistakes&#8217; like Siachen don&#8217;t just happen because of individual incompetence but sometimes because of organizational shortfalls, superior enemy resources or even sheer darn luck. Generals for example are extremely able people, but they&#8217;re given to miscalculations and mistakes that all look very obvious to us in hindsight but they&#8217;re not. If war was a science, it would be more like economics because at the end of the day you just can&#8217;t be sure about everything, too many incalculable variables from enemy morale or enemy intentions and even the weather. For what its worth though, I can assure you that Pakistani generals would fare well enough in front of their Indian counter-parts and the middle ranks (from captain to colonel) even more so. 

So yes, it _usually_ takes men of supreme dedication, self-confidence and ability (which includes administrative and martial competence) to reach the top. Its way too easy for people to sit at home and judge, but its another thing to actually carry the crushing responsibility altogether. Complete competence on the battlefield is a myth, wars are won and lost depending on who makes the greater blunder first. We've made many mistakes granted, but that in itself is not because of a 'lack of professionalism'. I can assure you we've learnt and are learning from mistakes, that is what professionalism is about.



> And yes, money is not there as much, but once you make it to the rank of a one star and beyond, than money is indeed their, lots of it.



Nope, compared to what many of these people can achieve in civilian careers a general's pay is nothing. Corp commanders (3 star generals) make only 62,000per month and thats not 'lots of money'. You can claim they have a lot of power, respect, authority but _not_ excessive amounts of money.



> In fact there is also a very good chance of becoming the sole owner of the country. After all four of the COAS plus one Major General ruled the country.



Nonsense. No one joins the army with that sort of thing in mind. Not every officer becomes a general, and not every general becomes a COAS and not every COAS takes over the country. Those who did did it because they felt obliged by circumstance and were obviously a minority.

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## qsaark

Kasrkin said:


> Nope, compared to what many of these people can achieve in civilian careers a general's pay is nothing. Corp commanders (3 star generals) make only 62,000per month and thats not 'lots of money'. You can claim they have a lot of power, respect, authority but _not_ excessive amounts of money.


A very well drafted and compelling reply . I thank you personally for this wonderful post. Now coming to the above paragraph. I never meant the salary, but all the additional benefits that include lands, etc. Looking from what Musharraf made (before taking the position of COAS), it is clear that an Army officer is showered with plots, lands etc. soon after he enters into the circle of the elites, i.e. Generals.


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## Kasrkin

Actually, these perks and plots for military personnel are designed to negate this financial disparity felt by their officers without further burdening the tax payer. I never said that generals are financially vulnerable, ofcouse they&#8217;d probably be better off than your average Pakistani but that doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re &#8216;showered in wealth&#8217; or anything of the sort. The image of generals with unlimited access to the taxpayer&#8217;s money is untrue. They&#8217;re able to do fine for themselves no doubt, but that doesn&#8217;t mean excessive wealth. Civilians with their age and experience (often working for multinational companies) usually make much more than they do (including the plots and perks).

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## Xeric

@ Post # 13: A wonderful post i must say, comprehensive and lucid!

Now for the money and land that would allegedly make a soldier in our military rich enough that even Bill Gates would shy off or their next 7 generations for live ion that money!

First, if someone is referring to a _General_ specifically then i must say it speaks of sheer lack of knowledge on their part or may be they have some personal grudge with some general, indeed. Generals, Admirals, Air Marshals, all receive the perks and privileges equally in terms of (allegedly) land, plots, houses etc. So let's not be too specific with the term General, though the word itself mean general, let it not be used so_ generally_!

Second, it seems as if people think that the plots, land etc etc that they claim are given to Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals are free of cost. This again speaks of sheer ignorance and lack of knowledge and i would call it blaming a respectable appointment.

Allow me to clear the dust for once and all, all the plots etc etc that are given to any military officer and the JCOs/NCOs are not given *free of cost.* They pay for every bit of it just like anyone would pay for some plot in civilian affairs. Yes the differences are as follows:

The Askari Housing Scheme allows all Officer to get '*a*' house to their name once in a service. This is not a compulsion but an option with any Officer. 'Unfortunately' he has to pay for that house for the rest of his life. He starts at it as a Lieutenant (when ALL of his class fellows and friends are actually doing _pondi_ outside a girls college, studying or roaming around as vagabonds-meaning simply that they are not earning except for the few who also study and work either they can as they can spare time, like when i was not in the military, people who were studying CS, all were earning after they completed their 2-3 years in university, or they work as a compulsion) i.e when 'respected' civilans are studying the military officers are already earning and paying, thus taking the lead from here, though to be covered up later by his civilian friends when they start earning. Well coming back to the point, so the Lieutenant gets a loan and/or saves money and/or shake his parents and make up the down payment and then from his salary a never ending series of installments begins which will go along till he retires or dies. By the time he retires only half of the cost of that house is paid, so the officer gives a large amount of money out of what he gets when he retires. So that's the story of someone who retires as a Major in the Army. Thanks to the excellent, transparent and efficient planning and quality control displayed by Askari Housing Scheme that and Officers is able to own a house after he has given a life-time to the military. 

BTW, who stops, PTCL, WAPDA, MCB, State Bank, Railways, KESC, Atomic Energy Commission etc etc to provide their employees with the same kinds facility!!?? All it takes is a dedicated department and there is nothing to lose? or may be they have one functioning already, but our worthy members deliberately turns a blind eye to this fact as they have only joined the forum to malign some particular institution!

Ok.

Now let me give a word about 'that' House which an officer BUY from the military. The size of the house varies with the rank, what a Major gets is lower in value when comapred to what a Colonels would get, that's one thing.

Two, you actually booked house when you were are Lieutenant, may be in 80s. You would get that house in 2005 (when you retire after 25 years) now guess what that house has grown its price X times as any other house or plot would do in Pakistan depending on its location etc. BTW, i forgot to mention that actually the Army kept your money for 25 years and made alot more money with it and you know how.

Now it is this house that pinches, bothers, give sleepless nights and hard time to many fellow Pakistanis.

To clear off the remaining dust i would like to add that 'this' house is similar to ANY other house that a CIVILIAN would make or buy outside the military! It has the same value (or may be more because of the excellent quality standards that AHS has displayed and the perfect maintenance available there). It soars in price in the same proportion as any other house outside a cantonment does.

Now if that house sells for 7-11 million (maximum limit as of today rather when the plots were at the highest prices a few years back) rupees in the end i.e. after 10-25 years of it construction that Armed Forces' Officer sure do have enough money to feed his generations, isn't it!?

Now a Question; can anyone name me a person who was doing a government job as a gazetted 17 grade officer (not a rickshaw driver, sweeper, peon, chowkidar etc) or for that matter any other individual who was earning approximately that same amount of salary as an Army officer of his service does, who has not been able to buy atleast ONE house in his 25 years of service in the civilian sector? If he has not then i must say he has poor financial management skills, and has not love for his children! As he has wasted his life for nothing. BTW, i have yet to see a civilian who fits in the above mentioned criteria and has not been able to do what i said above. i have colleagues, friends, class fellows, relatives in banks, private enterprises, local private companies, civil gazetted officer etc etc and i have yet to see if anyone of them has failed to achieve what an Army officer does with the same service and pay. Rather ALL of then had managed to 'make' more than what an Army officer had.

Now to clear of the last spots of dust (if any), lets talk about the Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals. Armed Forces has a policy. AFs gives plots to their men (officer and JCOs/NCOs) on the basis of their achievements and service. Not EVERYONE gets another plot other than the house which we already have discussed. There are many limits.

Service limits, like to qualify for the second plot you may have to complete a minimum of 27 years of service, so if you have retired earlier, you can say bye bye to the plot.

Second, again these plots are *NOT FREE OF COST or CHARITY*. We pay for it! Now again everyone doesnt get the 'honor' to pay for this second plot. Everything works as if in the civilian sector except that we are more efficient and transparent. When some plots are available, the criteria is announced i.e. Minimum of 29 years of service, not already has more than one house/plot booked, must not have a problem in his documents etc etc. Now all the officers who volunteer for the plot (mind it not all does as they cant afford to pay for the plot) would have to face the *BALLOT* (as in any civilian plots selling enterprise) Ofcousre we dont do the balloting on weekend nights with all present, it is done at higher levels automatically and is 101% transparent, none has so far raised any concern about it. Normally 1000s of officers. JCOs/NCOs are considered for the balloting and only a few 100s get the plots-the lucky ones. There on they pay for the fringing plot as any other civilian would pay for his plot that he won in balloting. Nw is there a problem with this procedure? If yes, you cant do a damn about it!

To make simple, let's assume Webby wants a plot in Behria Town, Neo wants one in DHA, Asim wants one in Eden City (got the name from ads). So here's what they would do; apply through a form (now if they have to stand in line for days to get the form or had to buy it in black, the Army ofcourse is not to be blamed, say thnx to the transparent and efficient civilian system). After submitting the forms they have to wait for the balloting. Let's assume Asim and Neo has their names in the ballot (no offence Webby) so what they would do is that they'll pay the down payment become the owner of that plot, pay the rest of the installment for the rest of their lives and then sell the same plot X times the price on which they got it. That's exactly what the armed forces personnel do.

Now no one stops me or anyone else in Pakistan to purchase a plot or house and same holds guud for the Armed Forces!

Now a General, Admiral and Air Marshal may have more than one plots by virtue of the amount of service they are putting on. This again is a way to keep the officers working even if they are superseded (not promoted) as the Armed Forces dont want to let a trained soldier retire just because he didnt get promoted!

N.B. How much would a Civilian Officer (executive appointments-not the bechara tangawla or rickshay wala) had earn in terms of pay, plots, cars, bank balance etc etc when compared to an Armed Forces officer (retired after he reached the executive appointments/ranks of the military)??

P.S i was able to apply for the Housing Scheme when i was a Captain (6 years of service) as i couldn't muster Rs 50K for the down fringing payment even after 6 years of my service! Though most of the officers get the membership of housing scheme as early as being Second Lieutenants. The Armed Forces now pay us a *handsome *amount of pay and allowances! We live a respectable life and are very very very contended about it, though by the end of month nothing much is left, atleast in my pocket!

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## sonicboom

xeric said:


> @ Post # 13: A wonderful post i must say, comprehensive and lucid!
> 
> Now for the money and land that would allegedly make a soldier in our military rich enough that even Bill Gates would shy off or their next 7 generations for live ion that money!
> 
> First, if someone is referring to a _General_ specifically then i must say it speaks of sheer lack of knowledge on their part or may be they have some personal grudge with some general, indeed. Generals, Admirals, Air Marshals, all receive the perks and privileges equally in terms of (allegedly) land, plots, houses etc. So let's not be too specific with the term General, though the word itself mean general, let it not be used so_ generally_!
> 
> Second, it seems as if people think that the plots, land etc etc that they claim are given to Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals are free of cost. This again speaks of sheer ignorance and lack of knowledge and i would call it blaming a respectable appointment.
> 
> Allow me to clear the dust for once and all, all the plots etc etc that are given to any military officer and the JCOs/NCOs are not given *free of cost.* They pay for every bit of it just like anyone would pay for some plot in civilian affairs. Yes the differences are as follows:
> 
> The Askari Housing Scheme allows all Officer to get '*a*' house to their name once in a service. This is not a compulsion but an option with any Officer. 'Unfortunately' he has to pay for that house for the rest of his life. He starts at it as a Lieutenant (when ALL of his class fellows and friends are actually doing _pondi_ outside a girls college, studying or roaming around as vagabonds-meaning simply that they are not earning except for the few who also study and work either they can as they can spare time, like when i was not in the military, people who were studying CS, all were earning after they completed their 2-3 years in university, or they work as a compulsion) i.e when 'respected' civilans are studying the military officers are already earning and paying, thus taking the lead from here, though to be covered up later by his civilian friends when they start earning. Well coming back to the point, so the Lieutenant gets a loan and/or saves money and/or shake his parents and make up the down payment and then from his salary a never ending series of installments begins which will go along till he retires or dies. By the time he retires only half of the cost of that house is paid, so the officer gives a large amount of money out of what he gets when he retires. So that's the story of someone who retires as a Major in the Army. Thanks to the excellent, transparent and efficient planning and quality control displayed by Askari Housing Scheme that and Officers is able to own a house after he has given a life-time to the military.
> 
> BTW, who stops, PTCL, WAPDA, MCB, State Bank, Railways, KESC, Atomic Energy Commission etc etc to provide their employees with the same kinds facility!!?? All it takes is a dedicated department and there is nothing to lose? or may be they have one functioning already, but our worthy members deliberately turns a blind eye to this fact as they have only joined the forum to malign some particular institution!
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Now let me give a word about 'that' House which an officer BUY from the military. The size of the house varies with the rank, what a Major gets is lower in value when comapred to what a Colonels would get, that's one thing.
> 
> Two, you actually booked house when you were are Lieutenant, may be in 80s. You would get that house in 2005 (when you retire after 25 years) now guess what that house has grown its price X times as any other house or plot would do in Pakistan depending on its location etc. BTW, i forgot to mention that actually the Army kept your money for 25 years and made alot more money with it and you know how.
> 
> Now it is this house that pinches, bothers, give sleepless nights and hard time to many fellow Pakistanis.
> 
> To clear off the remaining dust i would like to add that 'this' house is similar to ANY other house that a CIVILIAN would make or buy outside the military! It has the same value (or may be more because of the excellent quality standards that AHS has displayed and the perfect maintenance available there). It soars in price in the same proportion as any other house outside a cantonment does.
> 
> Now if that house sells for 7-11 million (maximum limit as of today rather when the plots were at the highest prices a few years back) rupees in the end i.e. after 10-25 years of it construction that Armed Forces' Officer sure do have enough money to feed his generations, isn't it!?
> 
> Now a Question; can anyone name me a person who was doing a government job as a gazetted 17 grade officer (not a rickshaw driver, sweeper, peon, chowkidar etc) or for that matter any other individual who was earning approximately that same amount of salary as an Army officer of his service does, who has not been able to buy atleast ONE house in his 25 years of service in the civilian sector? If he has not then i must say he has poor financial management skills, and has not love for his children! As he has wasted his life for nothing. BTW, i have yet to see a civilian who fits in the above mentioned criteria and has not been able to do what i said above. i have colleagues, friends, class fellows, relatives in banks, private enterprises, local private companies, civil gazetted officer etc etc and i have yet to see if anyone of them has failed to achieve what an Army officer does with the same service and pay. Rather ALL of then had managed to 'make' more than what an Army officer had.
> 
> Now to clear of the last spots of dust (if any), lets talk about the Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals. Armed Forces has a policy. AFs gives plots to their men (officer and JCOs/NCOs) on the basis of their achievements and service. Not EVERYONE gets another plot other than the house which we already have discussed. There are many limits.
> 
> Service limits, like to qualify for the second plot you may have to complete a minimum of 27 years of service, so if you have retired earlier, you can say bye bye to the plot.
> 
> Second, again these plots are *NOT FREE OF COST or CHARITY*. We pay for it! Now again everyone doesnt get the 'honor' to pay for this second plot. Everything works as if in the civilian sector except that we are more efficient and transparent. When some plots are available, the criteria is announced i.e. Minimum of 29 years of service, not already has more than one house/plot booked, must not have a problem in his documents etc etc. Now all the officers who volunteer for the plot (mind it not all does as they cant afford to pay for the plot) would have to face the *BALLOT* (as in any civilian plots selling enterprise) Ofcousre we dont do the balloting on weekend nights with all present, it is done at higher levels automatically and is 101% transparent, none has so far raised any concern about it. Normally 1000s of officers. JCOs/NCOs are considered for the balloting and only a few 100s get the plots-the lucky ones. There on they pay for the fringing plot as any other civilian would pay for his plot that he won in balloting. Nw is there a problem with this procedure? If yes, you cant do a damn about it!
> 
> To make simple, let's assume Webby wants a plot in Behria Town, Neo wants one in DHA, Asim wants one in Eden City (got the name from ads). So here's what they would do; apply through a form (now if they have to stand in line for days to get the form or had to buy it in black, the Army ofcourse is not to be blamed, say thnx to the transparent and efficient civilian system). After submitting the forms they have to wait for the balloting. Let's assume Asim and Neo has their names in the ballot (no offence Webby) so what they would do is that they'll pay the down payment become the owner of that plot, pay the rest of the installment for the rest of their lives and then sell the same plot X times the price on which they got it. That's exactly what the armed forces personnel do.
> 
> Now no one stops me or anyone else in Pakistan to purchase a plot or house and same holds guud for the Armed Forces!
> 
> Now a General, Admiral and Air Marshal may have more than one plots by virtue of the amount of service they are putting on. This again is a way to keep the officers working even if they are superseded (not promoted) as the Armed Forces dont want to let a trained soldier retire just because he didnt get promoted!
> 
> N.B. How much would a Civilian Officer (executive appointments-not the bechara tangawla or rickshay wala) had earn in terms of pay, plots, cars, bank balance etc etc when compared to an Armed Forces officer (retired after he reached the executive appointments/ranks of the military)??
> 
> P.S i was able to apply for the Housing Scheme when i was a Captain (6 years of service) as i couldn't muster Rs 50K for the down fringing payment even after 6 years of my service! Though most of the officers get the membership of housing scheme as early as being Second Lieutenants. The Armed Forces now pay us a *handsome *amount of pay and allowances! We live a respectable life and are very very very contended about it, though by the end of month nothing much is left, atleast in my pocket!



I would have to disagree with you on many accounts. As enough has been already said in the media in this regards, so I would not get into details. However following are few points for you to ponder.

1.Everyone in Pakistan calls Army officers as *property dealers*.

2.The role of the army is to fight and not deal in real estate.

3.Do you know that the corps commander of Lahore and Rawalpindi are presidents of the defense housing societies in their respective areas? It seems to me that they have nothing else more important to do than heading those societies.

4.The priorities of the army officers are to spend more time in dealing lucrative real estate deals than to brush up their military training.

5.The land is acquired by force from people for pennies and then is distributed to army officers dirt cheap. Then they turn around and sell those same plots to public for a premium price and hence in return making millions.

6.Dont you talk about NCOs and JCOs? Do you know that *only 3 out of 35 defense housing societies* have been allocated to NCOs/JCOs and are located in areas where most of you officers would not even want to live? Now compare the ratio of NCOs/JCOs with Officers in the army and then the number of societies. This is an extreme example of injustice and cunning planning.

7.Not to mention all that empty prime land belonging to Pakistani people in most of the cantonments now occupied by bungalows owned by army officers.

8.The time is not far away when you all will have to pay the heavy price for your greed and actions. I am sure there is a great resentment among the NCOs/JCOs against you officers.


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## Xeric

Before i start i would announce that you dont a damn about the Army and you have just ranted everything out in one go!

To begin with:


sonicboom said:


> I would have to disagree with you on many accounts.


Be my guest!


> As enough has been already said in the media in this regards


 When?


> 1.Everyone in Pakistan calls Army officers as *property dealers*.


If that everyone is you, then i dont give a damn. BTW, you are just plain wrong!



> 2.The role of the army is to fight and not deal in real estate.


Yeah right!
They dont even deserved to be paid! What creatures are our armed forces..ooops sorry you were talking specific to the Army, how come? Are you one of them who has been stampeded by some Army dude at some occasion?



> 3.Do you know that the corps commander of Lahore and Rawalpindi are presidents of the defense housing societies in their respective areas? It seems to me that they have nothing else more important to do than heading those societies.


i have already talked on this issue at large, please spare sometime and make use of the search function to enlighten yourself!



> 4.The priorities of the army officers are to spend more time in dealing lucrative real estate deals than to brush up their military training.


Ahan, i never knew that. Which Army are you talking about BTW?



> 5.The land is acquired by force from people for pennies and then is distributed to army officer&#8217;s dirt cheap. Then they turn around and sell those same plots to public for a premium price and hence in return making millions.


i can just 
You need to get your brains refurbished.



> 6.Don&#8217;t you talk about NCO&#8217;s and JCO&#8217;s? Do you know that *only 3 out of 35 defense housing societies* have been allocated to NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s and are located in areas where most of you officers would not even want to live? Now compare the ratio of NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s with Officers in the army and then the number of societies. This is an extreme example of injustice and cunning planning.


As i have mentioned in the start that you know balls about the Army. For you kind info NO NCO/JCOs were given plots excpet the SMs and few others, it was not a policy, UNTIL a few weeks back when General Kiyani announced that from now JCOs/NCOs would also be offered plots (mind it the word is plots, not housing societies). Only those would be eligible who would complete a certain amount of service and there are a few other points that need to be taken care of, which equally holds guud for Officers also, like, shouldn't be a Court Martial case, discharged on character failure, cheated or hiding of facts etc etc. So wake up sniff some coffee and pray for the 26 slain soldiers in that heli crash rather then wasting your energies here!



> 7.Not to mention all that empty prime land belonging to Pakistani people in most of the cantonment&#8217;s now occupied by bungalows owned by army officers.


NOW!!
i though most of the cantts were there before partition and the remaining were made early after the independence, only a very few are being constricted currently. And banglows, i wish you got to live in that banglow for ever. Ameen!



> 8.The time is not far away when you all will have to pay the heavy price for your greed and actions. I am sure there is a great resentment among the NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s against you officers.


Oooppss!

Lolzz... you forgot dude that our Army is already 62 years old, with many units that have a history in centuries. Let's see when the 'resentment' takes over the better of them.

-------

A futile attempt of pitching the men against their officers. The men who are envied in the entire world!!!

Post reported!!

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## sonicboom

xeric said:


> Before i start i would announce that you dont a damn about the Army and you have just ranted everything out in one go!
> 
> To begin with:
> 
> Be my guest!
> 
> When?
> 
> If that everyone is you, then i dont give a damn. BTW, you are just plain wrong!
> 
> 
> Yeah right!
> They dont even deserved to be paid! What creatures are our armed forces..ooops sorry you were talking specific to the Army, how come? Are you one of them who has been stampeded by some Army dude at some occasion?
> 
> 
> i have already talked on this issue at large, please spare sometime and make use of the search function to enlighten yourself!
> 
> 
> Ahan, i never knew that. Which Army are you talking about BTW?
> 
> 
> i can just
> You need to get your brains refurbished.
> 
> 
> As i have mentioned in the start that you know balls about the Army. For you kind info NO NCO/JCOs were given plots excpet the SMs and few others, it was not a policy, UNTIL a few weeks back when General Kiyani announced that from now JCOs/NCOs would also be offered plots (mind it the word is plots, not housing societies). Only those would be eligible who would complete a certain amount of service and there are a few other points that need to be taken care of, which equally holds guud for Officers also, like, shouldn't be a Court Martial case, discharged on character failure, cheated or hiding of facts etc etc. So wake up sniff some coffee and pray for the 26 slain soldiers in that heli crash rather then wasting your energies here!
> 
> 
> NOW!!
> i though most of the cantts were there before partition and the remaining were made early after the independence, only a very few are being constricted currently. And banglows, i wish you got to live in that banglow for ever. Ameen!
> 
> 
> Oooppss!
> 
> Lolzz... you forgot dude that our Army is already 62 years old, with many units that have a history in centuries. Let's see when the 'resentment' takes over the better of them.
> 
> -------
> 
> A futile attempt of pitching the men against their officers. The men who are envied in the entire world!!!
> 
> Post reported!!



I know truth is bitter but Sir you need to wake up and come into real life. Following is one of the examples of the articles published in the media for your reading pleasure ( I can search the remainig articles too if you want):

Dawn newspaper

*Whose land is it, anyway? *


By Irfan Husain 

An old friend was recently invited to a serving general's official residence for a small dinner party, and came away hugely impressed by the acres of immaculate lawns, the discreet lighting, the tasteful furnishings and the overall level of luxury. 

And it was all in good taste, he added. Nothing vulgar or ostentatious. The food and refreshments were of the highest quality, and the army staff who served the small gathering had apparently been trained at a five-star hotel. My friend who is an industrialist and lives in a fairly large, comfortable house, was so bowled over that he declared that his home was fit only to be the servants' quarters to the general's residence. I, for one, am glad my taxes are being put to good use. 

Recently, the web-based journal, the South Asian Tribune, ran a long list of serving and retired generals who had been allotted large tracts of agricultural land. This is nothing new: army officers have been awarded land for distinguished service for decades. Indeed, when General Musharraf staged his coup three years ago, he made his assets public. The portfolio was so impressive that those who have an idea about property prices were of the opinion that the general was worth nothing less than a hundred million rupees. 

Of course, there is no suggestion of impropriety here: all these transactions are within the rules. Perhaps the biggest boondoggle of all is the phenomenon of Defence Housing Societies that have mushroomed in virtually every urban centre. During British rule, huge swathes of land were allocated to the army for strictly military purposes. Mostly, this was unproductive land far from city centres. But with the inexorable growth of our cities, this land became prime property, and under Ayub Khan, much of it was handed over by GHQ to the Defence Housing Authority that proceeded to parcel it off to serving and retired military personnel for residential purposes at throw-away prices. 

In no time at all, these plots were flogged to civilians at several times their purchase price and palatial houses have been built on them over the years. These localities are now the most prestigious housing colonies in the country. In India, by contrast, no such conversion has taken place. Indeed, I believe civilians cannot reside permanently in military cantonments. *In Pakistan, the military runs the largest real estate operation in the country.*For years, large chunks of borderland have been handed over to retired army officers on the bizarre pretext that they will be able to train their agricultural workers, and thus form a barrier against invading Indian forces. The thought of poor peasants armed with scythes facing Indian tanks would be hilarious if one were to ignore the underlying purpose of the exercise.


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## qsaark

Sonicboom, you did not post the full column. It continues as follows:

The current standoff in Okara between peasants and the Rangers underlines the gulf between the military's needs and popular sentiment. Thousands of farmers whose forefathers have been tilling this land in the vicinity of the Military Dairy Farms for a century are being forced to forfeit tenancy rights and sign short-term contracts that could easily result in their eviction if they are unable to fulfil the terms of the contracts a couple of years down the road. Rangers have virtually surrounded the area, and have even prevented the visit of the wife of a European ambassador and a Newsweek reporter from talking to the besieged peasants. 

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this dispute, I would like to know why the army is in the business of running a dairy farm at all. I know the Military Dairy Farms were inherited from the British army at independence. But since then, much progress has been made and there are a number of agri-businesses that process and sell milk and other dairy products all over the country. I know it is very nice for our military officers and their families to get fresh milk, but if packaged milk is good enough for the rest of us, why can't the military drink it? The whole concept of the military running dairy farms is an anachronism that needs to be ended. 

The perks don't end here: military personnel are entitled to a 50 per cent discount on air and rail fares as well as cinema tickets. Their children have a quota at most public universities, and serving and retired officers are routinely inducted into civilian jobs. This was institutionalized by Zia who had a percentage fixed for military personnel in all the civil service groups. 

All this gives the military as a class a huge incentive to stay in power, either directly or indirectly. The first instinct of any class is to protect its power and privileges, and in this the army is no exception. The corollary to wielding power is that the political parties must remain weak and divided so that they cannot challenge the supremacy of the military because more than ever before, the two are rival contenders for political power. From the army's point of view, the logic of this situation dictates that if a political party is elected to office, it must be kept off-balance, and every attempt must be made to discredit it. 

So far, politicians have blithely cooperated through their incompetence and greed. Squabbling among themselves, they have given the military every opportunity to paint them as the villains. For well over a decade, Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto have been at daggers drawn, seeking to use the army against each other. Until recently, they simply did not understand that they were strengthening the military class by their antics. 

But General Musharraf's insistence on sidelining both leaders and decimating their parties has had the ironic effect of bringing them together on the same platform. For the first time, they have seen that the only way to make the military subservient to the political system is to join hands. Granted they were almost forced to this conclusion, but Musharraf's wheeling and dealing may well have the opposite impact from the one he desires. 

All indications are that short of massive poll rigging, the PPP and Nawaz Sharif's section of the PML will command a sizable majority in the National Assembly. This will be specially true after the two parties have completed their on-going electoral adjustments. Whether they use this majority to clip the army's wings, or as leverage in a power game remains to be seen. But the currently adverse situation can be transformed into a unique opportunity by the two mainstream parties to finally reassert the supremacy of civil society. Whether they have the wisdom and the maturity to do so remains to be seen.

Source: DAWN - Irfan Hussain; 14 September, 2002

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## Xeric

Although i opted or ignoring the two latest replies as this topic has been discussed ad nauseam, and i never wanted to turn the thread into another Xeric Vs Qsaark thread, but then i saw the silver lining:

(Again i emphasize, that i know the Army has stepped on many's tails to include members on PDF, writers, govt officials, journalists etc etc, but i emphasize that the so called perk and privileges that the civilians claims holds guud for all the THREE branches of military and not only Army, just a thought!)

*Training Waiter in 5 star hotel!*
Waiters in Army are authorized at the rate of approx 7.5 % i.e. if there are 50 officer dinning at a mess it would only have 3-4 waiters. What a luxery!

Anywaz, training the waiters in 5 star hotel, Ok how that fu** would it bother anybody. i have to be very deliberate this time. Giving out points just for the sake of it!!?? They waiters may be trained form White House what the hell is wrong with it unless the holy tax-payers dont have to spend money on them!!?? It seems like the our writers have acquired a degree in cheap journalism and are making full use of it. Tomorrow they may say hey look they wear camo, why do they wear camo, how can they wear camo, whay cant they just wear what we wear! And my answer would be ******.

Well the waiters, i have always wished that i have my unit cooks (which are again on the same scale as of waiters) and waiters trained from a better place. As out a 100 cooks/waiters you only find maximum 1 already suitably trained,. thnx to the overall working capability of Pakistani Nation.

Now here is what we *very rarely* do. i said VERY RARELY because we cant spare the cooks or waiters as they are a;ready available in small numbers. When we feel that we have had enough of this Mr Cooks food and it's becoming unbearable we take a bold step and decide that he shuld be sent to _kaka manna truck hotel_ somewhere near to the cantt to get the tarining. Now here is ho it works. _Kaka manna hotel_ owner is happy as he gets a cook free of cost, we are happy as our cook would be well trained, nd the tax payers are hapy or may be not as they are not spending a dime extra on this!! Now yes if a unit happens to be stationed at a big station like Multan, Karachi, Lahore etc, they may try to send the waiter of cook to some guud hotel (it may be a 5 star). The formula is the same. They happy, we happy and the tax-payers burning as usual!! It's a win win for everyone execpt that we have to face the blunt that if we already have 3 wiater/cooks on the posted strength and we send one of them out for training and one out of thise two has to go on leave and the remainder (one) has to cook, which ofocurse we being guud leaders understand his 'hardship' and do request some neighboring military setup to share the burden.

Now here is when i said VERY RARE; the service that i am putting on (in double figures atleast) i have seen on one occasion that a cook of ours was sent to Usmania and once i HEARD that some neighboring unit is planning to send its waiter to Marriott, though i am not sure if he managed to get there.

Now if this bother an worthy member and the writer of the article he can go to hell from my side at his own expanse!
*
50% Off on tickets*
This is the cheapest shot that anyone can take on the military!

Let me ask th writer how many times in a year does he has to travel to his home on leave as he has to spend most of his time away from his family? The military keep us away from our families and instead of providing free of cost transportation they only give us 50% concession, how does that sounds?! duh!

BTW, the concession is only on the FARE, not on the taxes, meaning thereby if a civilian can get a ticket from lahore to karachi on Air Blue for Rs 4000/- (night coach which is cheaper) if he purchase it a minimum of 2-3 days before the actual date as they give 90% off on the fare (as a publicity move) an Army personnel has to pay Rs 3640/ to purchase the same ticket. Rs 360/- in concession for serving the nation away from your beloved one, Sir i dont need it!!!! BTW, even if a civilian purchases the sme ticket on full rate i.e if he has an emergency and he has to buy that ticket for instance a few hours before the departure it would cost him Rs 6000/-. If God forbidden i had an emergency i'll not be having time for getting the concession voucher and rather i would get the tickt on full rate as there is a quota for military and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a ticket on military voucher even if you try one day prior the date of departure. So much for the fringing concession!! And it me not you who sits on mountains and go on leave to see my wife and kids and parents after may be 10 months, though most of the time militarymen go on leave before 3 months!

*
Cinema concession*
Another cheap shot, or i must say f!lthy thinking! How much does a cinema ticket cost dude!? BTW, how many fauji actually go to cinema now a days? i have been to one in my lifetime! This hold guud for troops, as it was a tradition that if a body of troops did soem well the CO used to allow them to go for a movie (Sultan Rahi action films) in the evening and thos poor chaps used to take it as a great incentive!

The one time that i went to the cenima was n Islamabad, i dont remeber the name though it was like 10-12 years back. When i and my coursemate were purchsing the tickets the counter wala asked us sir you from the military e said replied with a yes as our hair cut showed him and he offered us that we had a discount for military people, and i asked in sarcasm, how much is the discount actually and the reply ws like rs 20 or may be 30 WTF! No thnx sir, said i, got the ticket in full. That was the first and last time i went to a ceneima.

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## sonicboom

*xeric*


> When?



Refer to Pakistani media. Articles over articles have been written on this issue. All you have to do to read.




> If that everyone is you, then i dont give a damn. BTW, you are just plain wrong!



Tauba! Tauba! I would not dare to call chosen people like that. For your kind information, I found it from the media and the Pakistani people. So go and figure?

Read this from The News dated April 4, 2009 from an indian officer:

*'A Pakistani soldier that I met in Iraq in 2004, went on to say, that Pakistan army officers were more into real estate, defence housing colonies and the like.' *

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=172290



> Yeah right!
> They dont even deserved to be paid! What creatures are our armed forces..ooops sorry you were talking specific to the Army, how come? Are you one of them who has been stampeded by some Army dude at some occasion?



The Pak Army officers are handsomely paid plus all the perks as compared to any other Pakistani with the same or more qualification. Tell me how a Pakistani army captain can live in bungalow of 2 kanal worth more than 2 crore rupees, while on the other hand a Pakistani professor (more in Rank and salary than a captain) is looking for shelters?




> Ahan, i never knew that. Which Army are you talking about BTW?



The Pakistan Army




> i can just
> You need to get your brains refurbished.



You just saw what Irfan Hussain said in his artcile and there are many more examples. So it's time for you to get your bonehead in order.



> As i have mentioned in the start that you know balls about the Army. For you kind info NO NCO/JCOs were given plots excpet the SMs and few others, it was not a policy,



And who made that policy? "Andahon mein kana raja"




> Oooppss!
> 
> Lolzz... you forgot dude that our Army is already 62 years old, with many units that have a history in centuries. Let's see when the 'resentment' takes over the better of them.



No Sir, I did not. Read more from that indian army officer:

*"A Pakistani soldier that I met in Iraq in 2004 lamented the fact that the Pakistani soldier in Kargil had been badly let down firstly by Nawaz Sharif and then by the Pakistani officers' cadre. Pakistani soldiers led by Indian officers, he believed, would be the most fearsome combination possible." *

Also if you really want to know more, then read the surveys submitted by the returning NCO's/JCO's POW's of 1971 war. Almost all of them said that the Indian Army Officers were better than the Pakistani Army officers.


And lastly I love Pakistan Army except the property dealers.


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## Xeric

sonicboom said:


> The Pak Army officers are handsomely paid plus all the perks as compared to any other Pakistani with the same or more qualification. Tell me how a Pakistani army captain can live in bungalow of 2 kanal worth more than 2 crore rupees, while on the other hand a Pakistani professor (more in Rank and salary than a captain) is looking for shelters?


Wow!
2 Kanal?
You are an idiot! Let me be very rude this time!



> You just saw what Irfan Hussain said in his artcile and there are many more examples. So it's time for you to get your bonehead in order.
> 
> 
> 
> And who made that policy? "Andahon mein kana raja"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Sir, I did not. Read more from that indian army officer:
> 
> *"A Pakistani soldier that I met in Iraq in 2004 lamented the fact that the Pakistani soldier in Kargil had been badly let down firstly by Nawaz Sharif and then by the Pakistani officers' cadre. Pakistani soldiers led by Indian officers, he believed, would be the most fearsome combination possible." *
> 
> Also if you really want to know more, then read the surveys submitted by the returning NCO's/JCO's POW's of 1971 war. Almost all of them said that the Indian Army Officers were better than the Pakistani Army officers.
> 
> 
> And lastly I love Pakistan Army except the property dealers.



i have replied on this letter at length and detail on this forum at its own thread, make use of the search function and read it yourself. As i dont was to waste my energies again in vain.

As for a starter, Pakistan Army has never been to Iraq, and this speaks high of your ignorance!


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## sonicboom

xeric said:


> Wow!
> 2 Kanal?
> You are an idiot! Let me be very rude this time!



Now that shows frustration on your part. You looser! Politeness is contagious. And by the way I am not a NCO or JCO, whom you are used to treat like animals, that you can push me around. I will put you in your place. Mind it next time.


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## Xeric

sonicboom said:


> Now that shows frustration on your part. You looser! Politeness is contagious. And by the way I am not a NCO or JCO, whom you are used to treat like animals, that you can push me around. I will put you in your place. Mind it next time.



Hey idiot we dont treat our men like animals, they are the most precious commodity that we have!!


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## qsaark

xeric said:


> Hey idiot we dont treat our men like animals, they are the most precious commodity that we have!!


Well I myself have heard from a number of Jawans that they were not treated well by their officers. How much of its was true and how much was exaggeration, I don&#8217;t know. I used to spend my vacation at my Uncle's place (who retired as a Brigadier), and I saw him at least treating his batman quite well. But than his batman was sort of our (mine and my cousin's) buddy. I guess it is little different when someone is with you for such a long period of time. My Dad had a batman who was with him from 1972 (I was born in 1973) till 1999 (when my father finally got posted in Lahore). At that time Altaf (that was his name) had grown old and he couldn&#8217;t accompany my Dad for a number of reasons. We always used to call him Altaf Chacha and he indeed was/is considered a family member rather than a batman.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Pakistani soldiers led by Indian officers, he believed, would be the most fearsome combination possible."


This alleged interaction between a Pakistani soldier in Iraq and an Indian keeps coming up, and it is amazing that people buy into this BS.

A 'Pakistani soldier led by Indian officers' - Akhand Bharat anyone?

How foolish do you have to be to buy this crap propaganda.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sonicboom said:


> Now that shows frustration on your part. You looser! Politeness is contagious. And by the way I am not a NCO or JCO, whom you are used to treat like animals, that you can push me around. I will put you in your place. Mind it next time.



Actually you have been making derogatory generalizations all along, both on this thread and the PAF leadership one, about either officers in the PA or pilots in the PAF.

You even insulted a decorated war hero from the PAF, and his family, by implying that the only reason his relatives had achieved various positions in the Military was because of connections, and you did so without offering a shred of evidence.

Xeric countered most of Irfan Hussein's points in his article, which were primarily based on bad anecdotal evidence and speculative arguments, and instead you chose to engage in more derogatory generalizations.

You sir are not on this forum to participate in discourse, but to merely pursue an agenda against the Pakistani military by making spurious arguments. Your derogatory generalizations are getting tiresome, especially in light of the sacrifices being rendered by both officers and jawans of the PA against the Taliban.

Please take your agenda elsewhere.

Thanks.

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## PakiDil

xeric said:


> Hey idiot we dont treat our men like animals, they are the most precious commodity that we have!!



You bastard, Idiot tera **** who brought you in this world and that's what PMA taught you, shame on you, that's how you treat your soldiers too, no wonder why your ***** were kicked by indian army, chullu bher pani mein doob maru


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## Patriot

Sonicboom after getting his *** kicked by Army and PAakdef Mods is back with new ID


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## PakiDil

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Actually you have been making derogatory generalizations all along, both on this thread and the PAF leadership one, about either officers in the PA or pilots in the PAF.
> 
> You even insulted a decorated war hero from the PAF, and his family, by implying that the only reason his relatives had achieved various positions in the Military was because of connections, and you did so without offering a shred of evidence.
> 
> Xeric countered most of Irfan Hussein's points in his article, which were primarily based on bad anecdotal evidence and speculative arguments, and instead you chose to engage in more derogatory generalizations.
> 
> You sir are not on this forum to participate in discourse, but to merely pursue an agenda against the Pakistani military by making spurious arguments. Your derogatory generalizations are getting tiresome, especially in light of the sacrifices being rendered by both officers and jawans of the PA against the Taliban.
> 
> Please take your agenda elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks.



First of all you seem to be the owner of this forum and you are serving the interest of some of the ex army and air force officers to keep your forum in business.

Secondly I did not make any derogatory statements but told the absolute truth and truth is always bitter. As a matter of fact, most of your heroes are frustrated, abrasive and rude.

Third I did not insult him and once again told the truth. Everyone knows what goes in ISSB and how the selection process favors sons/ daughters and relatives of officers.

You can ban me as many times as you wish. Let's see who wins here.


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## pakistanMYheart

oh my ! have'nt we witnessed the same situation in another thread ! (The PAF Leadership one) and there we go again. This thread will soon end up "Closed for moderation" 

@All members

There is one thing I fail to understand. Whenever somebody in this forum, tries to point out something wrong about some Military setup, a "Military Professional" comes in storming, loaded with bombs and missiles, full of anger, and starts making rude and abusive remarks. The original purpose of the thread is buried under loads of anger, and what is left is an apparent fight between Military Professionals and other members. The purpose of threads are not at all aimed to disrespect the military. They are just simple questions rising in the minds of common people, and if military professionals are present here, we expect cool and logical replies, and we will go home the happiest people on earth.

What is so wrong in saying something about the Military, that may have been going on wrong? Why dont we get plain, logical anger-less replies?. As a common fact of human psychology, getting infuriated at the first remark, mostly shows that you are wrong. According to the saying "Truth is always bitter".

None of these discussions are aimed at degrading the military. Why do military men feel degraded? There is something more than meets the eye, I suppose.

Our military people are the greatest of all people. But then, this nation works hard all day, and pays taxes, that support the military. Like any sensible nation, our government and military can be held answerable to tax-payers. Why not?

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## PakiDil

pakistanMYheart said:


> oh my ! have'nt we witnessed the same situation in another thread ! (The PAF Leadership one) and there we go again. This thread will soon end up "Closed for moderation"
> 
> @All members
> 
> There is one thing I fail to understand. Whenever somebody in this forum, tries to point out something wrong about some Military setup, a "Military Professional" comes in storming, loaded with bombs and missiles, full of anger, and starts making rude and abusive remarks. The original purpose of the thread is buried under loads of anger, and what is left is an apparent fight between Military Professionals and other members.
> 
> What is so wrong in saying something about the Military, that may have been going on wrong? Why dont we get plain, logical anger-less replies?. As a common fact of human psychology, getting infuriated at the first remark, mostly shows that you are wrong. According to the saying "Truth is always bitter".
> 
> None of these discussions are aimed at degrading the military. Why do military men feel degraded? There is something more than meets the eye, I suppose.
> 
> Our military people are the greatest of all people. But then, this nation works hard all day, and pays taxes, that support the military. Like any sensible nation, our government and military can be held answerable to tax-payers. Why not?



Thank you very much.


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## Xeric

qsaark said:


> Well I myself have heard from a number of Jawans that they were not treated well by their officers. How much of its was true and how much was exaggeration, I dont know. I used to spend my vacation at my Uncle's place (who retired as a Brigadier), and I saw him at least treating his batman quite well. But than his batman was sort of our (mine and my cousin's) buddy. I guess it is little different when someone is with you for such a long period of time. My Dad had a batman who was with him from 1972 (I was born in 1973) till 1999 (when my father finally got posted in Lahore). At that time Altaf (that was his name) had grown old and he couldnt accompany my Dad for a number of reasons. We always used to call him Altaf Chacha and he indeed was/is considered a family member rather than a batman.


And still you think that other officers other then your Brigdier uncle were Pherohs!

BTW, how many times did you hear workers in banks cribbing about their bosses, labours always talking abd about their employers, sale-men talking foul about the shop owners etc etc. But what surprises me is that a man who has the capability to see the truth also fails to see it or may be it is something deliberate.

A dude who dont even know how to write his name joins the Army and by the time he becomes a NCO he is so shrewd, sharp, learned that until he go back to his village people dont plan the marriages of their daughter without getting advice from the _fauji saab_, he is so capable that young officers take advices from him at every step even in live ops, he manages to get his children out from his village were probably there was no water or electricity what to talk about gas and bring him to a place were he lives with dignity and proud and he also manages to get his childerns in some guud school inside the cantt and there on in Military College Jehlum where his son turns out to be future Army Officer.The NCO might actually manage to save almost equal to what an Officer might save and intellectuals like you believe what a troll said which got him banned!

Sir i have been tuiting the children of these honorable NCOs and JCOs when i was a lieut, i have to do away with my movie time for this task of mine but i never complained because i knew they cant afford some tuition and their kids would just end up as another 'C' Grader. There are many other things which i might quote you, but know you will again turn a deaf ear to it as usual. We have been purchasing 100s of items for them to be offered to them as gifts and incentives may it be in term of free rations or bangles for their kids (daughters) on Eid. My and other officers wives have been taking vocational classes for the lady wives to the same NCOs/JCOs while going in their homes. Our OFFICERS' children have been forcefully getting their children out their houses to play with them so that they dont feel the difference. And highly knowledgeable man like you just believe in hoaxes.

Execpt all the 'bad' things that many officer and men told you about the Army dod they ever tell you about a thing known as TFWC? Oh yes why would they, they also are probably also with the same kind to thinking as you possess. Not satisfied with their job, always complaining about the boss, hardships etc etc. i always give an advice to these kinda people, sir just write it on piece of paper they you are not satisfied with the Arm,y's working and i promise you before the next days dawn you would have left the cantt for guud!! From there on in peace and find a better job (if you can)!

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## Xeric

Patriot said:


> Sonicboom after getting his *** kicked by Army and PAakdef Mods is back with new ID



Lolzz...it was quick. These losers are so persistent, but let them have fun.


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## jalip

Kasrkin said:


> Actually, these perks and plots for military personnel are designed to negate this financial disparity felt by their officers without further burdening the tax payer. I never said that generals are financially vulnerable, ofcouse theyd probably be better off than your average Pakistani but that doesnt mean theyre showered in wealth or anything of the sort. The image of generals with unlimited access to the taxpayers money is untrue. Theyre able to do fine for themselves no doubt, but that doesnt mean excessive wealth. Civilians with their age and experience (often working for multinational companies) usually make much more than they do (including the plots and perks).




sir i would like u to compares the benifts including every thing with any developing countries You will find it out taxpayer ar giving more then half of their income for their defence for the last fifty year What they got u know that? I met a retired british genral he jocked with me by saying that he would like to retired as pakistan army genral as they retired with a gold spone 
I thinks thats miltary officers while they retired should be given subtantial amount of money and then they have to live in civilian eenvironment as they are not serving the country any more


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## Xeric

pakistanMYheart said:


> oh my ! have'nt we witnessed the same situation in another thread ! (The PAF Leadership one) and there we go again. This thread will soon end up "Closed for moderation"
> 
> @All members
> 
> There is one thing I fail to understand. Whenever somebody in this forum, tries to point out something wrong about some Military setup, a "Military Professional" comes in storming, loaded with bombs and missiles, full of anger, and starts making rude and abusive remarks. The original purpose of the thread is buried under loads of anger, and what is left is an apparent fight between Military Professionals and other members. The purpose of threads are not at all aimed to disrespect the military. They are just simple questions rising in the minds of common people, and if military professionals are present here, we expect cool and logical replies, and we will go home the happiest people on earth.
> 
> What is so wrong in saying something about the Military, that may have been going on wrong? Why dont we get plain, logical anger-less replies?. As a common fact of human psychology, getting infuriated at the first remark, mostly shows that you are wrong. According to the saying "Truth is always bitter".
> 
> None of these discussions are aimed at degrading the military. Why do military men feel degraded? There is something more than meets the eye, I suppose.
> 
> Our military people are the greatest of all people. But then, this nation works hard all day, and pays taxes, that support the military. Like any sensible nation, our government and military can be held answerable to tax-payers. Why not?



Ok another sympathizer.

Sir, you open to criticize anyone to include military. But it becomes a pain in a$$ when false allegations leveled repeatedly even if all of them has been clarified by some MP. Moreover, if you are a new comer then i would suggest that before posting your hate fulled remarks search the forum as ALL of these stupid allegations have been countered many a time. So instead of wasting the bandwidth and others times do some homework yourself.
Lastly, MPs are not here to clarify your doubts. They are not paid fpr this nor do they have joined the forum with this purpose. If anyone gets in counters what you spew you must be thankful. i know the military has kicked the sorry azzez of many like you, and this kinda attitude would be expected from yourselves forever. That's a none-issue and you may proceed with what you want-i live in a free country i supposed!


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## Xeric

jalip said:


> sir i would like u to compares the benifts including every thing with any developing countries You will find it out taxpayer ar giving more then half of their income for their defence for the last fifty year What they got u know that? I met a retired british genral he jocked with me by saying that he would like to retired as pakistan army genral as they retired with a gold spone
> I thinks thats miltary officers while they retired should be given subtantial amount of money and then they have to live in civilian eenvironment as they are not serving the country any more


A few questions sir:

Developing contries? How. name them, give us the pay scale, and the perks that they dont get.

Tax-payers giving half of their pays to th military, that was a news sir, thnx, keep me posted.

-----

Let me clear off the dust myself. When i was in States one of my cleassfellows was a Naplese Army Lt Col. e ofcourse discussed the pay sacles. Ther rate of pay was almost the same but keeping in view that Pakistani Rupee is a very bit lower then the Nepalese Rupee i like to tell you that they were earning more then us. Moreover, allow me to take the honor to tell you how other 'developing' countries compensate theor soldiers. In our military it is normal that only the best of the best go for courses, scondments abroad or for UN Missions. Once you go your are probablt done, unlesss you get Kashnmir freed there is a remote chance that you would go out again, but guess what, it is normal in the Napese Army that first, EVERY Offcier gets a chance to go abroad, there is no competeion or should i say less of a competetion, almost everyone gets a chance to go abroad, Second, it is normal for them if someione has gone abroad for even more than 4 to 5 times!! Now anyone who has gone abraod 5 times odesnt need a fringing plot dude!

Moreover, there are certain scondments that are paid by the West (hosts), like the course in IMET Program, but for the others the govts who send theor officers pay, menaning thereby that thier govts pay their military officers in dollars !! Wow, let;s see if this happens here in Pakistan, you people will kill us

Here's the list of credits to that Napeles Officer;

Did his basic course from USA, he was from infantry. The Naplese govt paid for it.

Been to USA twice as a lieutenant for two more course, one was paid by the Naplese govt.

Been to UK and France once each, both trips were paid by the Naplese govt.

Was seconded to UN Missions thrice, one as a UN Observer, second as on a UN Mission, lastly as SO in some UN stuff. Yes this is something wihci the Naplese govt didn't pay for!

This was the fourth time he was coming to USA for a course. A course funded by the US itself.

And i was like, _Sir ap tu COAS hain future k Naplese Army k_, and he laughed, and replied Sir, what about those in our military who have spent HALF of their lives abroad!!

Now i wonder how much he must have earned during his service, no doubt they dont require plots...lolzzz

BTW, they same holds guud for Sri Lanka.
Chill!

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## pakistanMYheart

@xeric

I mentioned in my last post, why I think you are loosing your cool. Cant you please, for once reply to a post in a normal way, instead of abusing the poster? 

MODS kindly note the tone.

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## Xeric

pakistanMYheart said:


> @xeric
> 
> I mentioned in my last post, why I think you are loosing your cool. Cant you please, for once reply to a post in a normal way, instead of abusing the poster?
> 
> MODS kindly note the tone.



The tone is and would remain as such until your demeanor remains insulting.

Mods please take note!!


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## pakistanMYheart

ok @xeric

You asked for it. Let me use the same tone then. Because I really really dont like the way you are talking. I hope being a non-MP does not make me any less a member of this forum? or does it?

Just pointing out some thing that is wrong with Army, seems insulting to you? Do you think you are perfect? Sent from heavens, and answerable to no body?

I will just ask the MODS to allow me to reply @xeric in the same tone. Seeking permission from MODS because, I do not want this forum to end up being "Closed for moderation", and see the interesting discussion I am going to have with @xeric, go down the drain.


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## x_man

pakistanMYheart said:


> Our military people are the greatest of all people. But then, this nation works hard all day, and pays taxes, that support the military. Like any sensible nation, our government and military can be held answerable to tax-payers. Why not?



Mate, we have already discussed everything with no results. Neither me nor any other member can help you here with the grievances that you have against pilots and other members of armed forces.*Discussion just for the sake of discussion is useless*.*Nothing is going to change here*.Pilots will continue to hold all key positions and you will keep feeling the same disgust in your heart

If you are really sincere with your cause and think that PAF is mistreating all its braches (other than GD), or Armed forces are involved in Gross Loot Maar, then I think you need to raise the level. As I earlier suggested that you hit the mainstream media and bring to their attention the issues you have against pilots / Armed forces. You are not even a serving or retired member of armed forces, so you should be scared of losing any sort of benefits or getting punished. As you are a lawyer too so and its your job to give people justice and if you believe that gross injustice has been done by people running the forces, then by all means go ahead and bring them to their knees. Just see what lawyers achieved in last year or so.Do I see another movement here from another Lawyer???

Have you ever heard of the name Wing Commander K R Nagesh or do you know what happened in IAF in Feb, 1998? Well allow me to make you aware about that: wide disparity in the pay scales between flying branch and Engg Branch forced the IAF engineers and their wives to demonstrate in the streets at a number of Bases. They too had serious issues against their pilots (damn they are same everywhere) and in the end they too (engineers) won and had the pay rise..Morale of the story is that there is a lot for you to learn from their experiences. Wg Comdr. Nagesh fought for what he believe was right and in the end won..Can you become the Nagesh for PAFs ground branches????

So muster all your courage and create some waves in a pond where you can really make the difference. ..Otherwise you will keep pounding your head against the wall here and achieve *NOTHING*.... I again suggest you taking things a one step further. hope to see something very soon from you in mainstream .

All the best.

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## pakistanMYheart

@x_man 

Nice to see you again.
I think I am being grossly misunderstood here. I am not here to win a war. Discussion forums do not bring changes. They are like Gup Shup, we would normally have with our friends. So, why not do some intellectual Gup Shup. You say something, I say something, and we both go home happy. 

I joined the forums with exactly this intention. I think you should take it with the same spirit.

If you are right, then it must be your belief that no one in this world can prove you wrong. If you are right, your actions will support you, you wont need to resort to anger or abuse. 

And if you are wrong, why not accept it. Of course, these forums do not matter. I can assure you, when you go to your office next time, your boss will still be a pilot. There will be no Phd sitting there, guiding you how to fly well. So why worry ?

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## x_man

PakiDil said:


> First of all you seem to be the owner of this forum



Errrrr&#8230;. he actually runs the forum if you couldn&#8217;t figure it out till now&#8230;



PakiDil said:


> and you are serving the interest of some of the ex army and air force officers to keep your forum in business.



*Wrong once again*&#8230;.You know how many members this forum has: 17, 349 and out of these how many Mil Prof ??? Well just 16. And not all these MPs are from Pakistan. They are from Australia, USA , UK and even INDIA , so saying that PDF only supports Pakistani POV, is way off the mark. 

No forum member even an MP ( previous Think Tanks) is above the forum rules. If you do not know, I too have been banned once from this forum for being unreasonable. There have been TT wwho were stripped off their titles and many other senior Pakistani members banned for trespassing the rules. So if you think that Admin of this forum is protecting MPs then you are putting just another baseless allegation that you have been doing uptill now.



PakiDil said:


> Secondly I did not make any derogatory statements but told the absolute truth and truth is always bitter



Yeh truth is bitter and sometimes counter Truth is even bitter. Xeric has very well countered all the missiles you fired at him and forces , and I guess you have nothing to add on the subject.



PakiDil said:


> Everyone knows what goes in ISSB and how the selection process favors sons/ daughters and relatives of officers.



Gibberish&#8230;.I know countless guys whose dads were in Armed forces and the boys never made it thru ISSB in both attempts. Hundreds and thousands of guys appear in ISSB each year and very few are selected. And all those who never get it thru, have only one thing to say: ISSB main sirf sifarish chalti hai&#8230;.So typical. Have you ever met a single guy who said that he couldn&#8217;t do well in the group tasks, or intelligence tests or Interview??? They all blame it on ISSB as you are doing too&#8230;.Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to ISSB??? 



PakiDil said:


> You can ban me as many times as you wish. Let's see who wins here.



If you are here to win anything then you never will. Because there is nothing to win or lose here. &#8230;.No one really gives a hoot..

In PAF one and this thread, you first tried to divide the opinion of members against our Armed forces by misleading them with false information and now you are attempting to divide people by directly confronting the Admin team and their powers on this forum. No MOD or Webby send you the invitation at your home to join PDF&#8230;.If you cant stand them or other members then no one is compelling you to stay here&#8230;..

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## x_man

pakistanMYheart said:


> Discussion forums do not bring changes.



Exactly my point. 



pakistanMYheart said:


> I can assure you, when you go to your office next time, your boss will still be a pilot. There will be no Phd sitting there, guiding you how to fly well. So why worry..



Thanks for letting me know...I am so relieved...


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## Xeric

Sir X_man:
Request initiate ignore mode, please. Let's not feed the troll.

You already have given him enough masala, if he has an iota of shame he would refrain from stupid remarks. Let's chill.

How's this for a change:
Sir get a seat for me in the next C-130

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## x_man

xeric said:


> Sir X_man:
> Request initiate ignore mode, please. Let's not feed the troll.
> 
> You already have given him enough masala, if he has an iota of shame he would refrain from stupid remarks. Let's chill.
> 
> How's this for a change:
> *Sir get a seat for me in the next C-130*



Thanks Xeric. It was my last post to him , exams coming up next week so will get busy with them anyway.

Yaar C-130 walay kissi ki baat nahin suntay...But do PM me whenever you need to travel and I hope I should be able to help you with seats while I am still in Pakistan for another month or so ...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

PakiDil said:


> You bastard, Idiot tera **** who brought you in this world and that's what PMA taught you, shame on you, that's how you treat your soldiers too, no wonder why your ***** were kicked by indian army, chullu bher pani mein doob maru



To the other members - the agenda and virulent anti-military mindset of this individual is pretty clear.

Please don't engage with trolls like these, just report them.

With alleged countrymen like these, who needs enemies.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

pakistanMYheart said:


> @All members
> 
> There is one thing I fail to understand. Whenever somebody in this forum, tries to point out something wrong about some Military setup, a "Military Professional" comes in storming, loaded with bombs and missiles, full of anger, and starts making rude and abusive remarks.


The problem here is not the fact that you wish to have a discourse over perceived problems in the structure of the armed forces, but in the manner with which such discussion take place.

I pointed out to you in the other thread that derogatory generalizations about all pilots, such as 'having stiff necks, arrogant etc.' are not conducive to having a discussion.

It would be like me saying all lawyers are POS, liars and scumbags - what exactly would you feel like discussing with me after I said something like that? 

Sonicboom's comments have been similarly offensive and derogatory generalizations about Army & AF officers, and he was just not prepared to listen to the other side of the story. Xeric offered valid counter arguments to the points raised by Irfan Hussain's column, but SB was more interested in continuing to rant against Army officers instead of trying to argue why Xeric's points were invalid.

That's not the point of discussion - you come with certain perceptions on an issue - you elucidate your views, and you listen to responses and try to validate your own POV, or accept that the other side might be correct on some issues.



> The original purpose of the thread is buried under loads of anger, and what is left is an apparent fight between Military Professionals and other members.


The fight is not between MP's and other members - I am not an MP, and I find SB's arguments and tone disrespectful and full of broad generalizations.



> The purpose of threads are not at all aimed to disrespect the military. They are just simple questions rising in the minds of common people, and if military professionals are present here, we expect cool and logical replies, and we will go home the happiest people on earth.


If that truly is the intention, then not making comments such as 'officers treat the Jawan's like animals, are real estate agents, can't fight, are stiffed necked and arrogant', would be a good start from your side to show that intention.

Right now the impression I get is that some people are joining these arguments not for the sake of discourse (in which there is give and take) but to merely rant about their preconceived opinions on the military.

Xeric has explained the pay structure, the way plots are allotted, the down payments, the 'discounts' etc to the best of his abilities - one would expect then that those on the opposing side would address his clarifications, instead of just continuing to rant about 'real estate agents' and 'treating their jawaan's like animals'.

I have read almost every single one of Xeric's posts on this forum, and his expressed sentiments for those serving under him are indicative of compassion and caring, hardly the abusive slave driver PA officers are being made out to be by SB.



> What is so wrong in saying something about the Military, that may have been going on wrong? Why dont we get plain, logical anger-less replies?.


Again, the issue is not about pointing out what you think is wrong, but listening to the other sides explanation, and then trying to factually and logically point out why that explanation is wrong, and not spewing pejoratives.

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## facinated

*Agnostic Muslim*

No Sir:

I will *not* do that. I consider any further discussion with him closed. I replied until he kept his temper in control (please go back and look again). Honestly, the man even does not deserve to be called an officer. Did you read the following in his posts:

Ok how that fu** would .....
You are an idiot!

I hope you did. And to substantiate my original points, I just posted proof and facts from the media that you deleted. 

*And lastly I don't have any agenda against the Pakistan Military. I love the Military except those who are plundering my home land day and night and are responsible for the current misery. Long Live Pakistan*
Wasalam


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## Xeric

facinated said:


> *Agnostic Muslim*
> 
> No Sir:
> 
> I will *not* do that. I consider any further discussion with him closed. I replied until he kept his temper in control (please go back and look again). Honestly, the man even does not deserve to be called an officer. Did you read the following in his posts:
> 
> Ok how that fu** would .....
> You are an idiot!
> 
> I hope you did. And to substantiate my original points, I just posted proof and facts from the media that you deleted.
> 
> Wasalam



You should be thankful that i censored the word!


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## qsaark

I will not take sides here. But it is a valid complaint that unfortunately Xaric (and couple of others) does use abusive language from time to time, and apparently his abusive language is always ignored by the Mods. Right he may be, but no one should be allowed to use abusive language no matter what. His most recent sentence "You should be thankful that I censored the word!" is nothing but defiance of high level. Letting go somebody with abusive language (because he is an MP or whatever) and warning or banning others does not set a good precedence.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

facinated said:


> *Agnostic Muslim*
> 
> No Sir:
> 
> I will *not* do that. I consider any further discussion with him closed.



Fair enough.

Xeric,

Could you please refrain from the 'idiot' etc. comments, while SB and others shall refrain from making derogatory comments such as the ones I mentioned in my previous posts.

Please trust the moderators to make the right decision in terms of censuring unnecessary pejoratives directed at the military, other posters from here on out.

Facinated/SB,

I will un ban your SB ID and ban the facinated one, provided you do not go down the previous route, and try to factually address the rebuttals posted by Xeric.

In addition, instead of posting long articles that often use anecdotal accounts to make rants (such as Irfan Hussain's whole tirade over a 'friend of a friend' visiting a general or whatever, whose waiters were trained at a '5 star hotel'), pick concrete and factual issues of complaint.

Discounts, plots, etc. (as part of 'compensation' are legitimate issues in the context of this thread.).

Please address the clarifications attempted by Xeric, instead of posting ore unrelated articles that rant more than argue factually. 

Everyone, remain civil, and ignore the other side if the same behavior occurs again, and the mods will address the issue.


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## Xeric

Agno point noted!



qsaark said:


> I will not take sides here. But it is a valid complaint that unfortunately Xaric (and couple of others) does use abusive language from time to time, and apparently his abusive language is always ignored by the Mods. Right he may be, but no one should be allowed to use abusive language no matter what. His most recent sentence "You should be thankful that I censored the word!" is nothing but defiance of high level. Letting go somebody with abusive language (because he is an MP or whatever) and warning or banning others does not set a good precedence.


Qsaark you sometime really dont think before you post. There has to be a limit. Different issues merit a different levels of threshold. If someone calls this world a living hell not many will mind, but if someone would abuse his or her's respective country directly he/she would definitely response unless they have gone numb! 

(no offence) If today i say something about your family or near ones would you spare me? yes i admit i have used foul language and would use it again if anyone would say something stupid enough! Equating solders with animals!! this things could have been said in some other way. i have digested everything, officers being accused of foul plays, generals being called names, the institution itself being insulted, that was accepted, but i repeat it again, anyone dare say bad about my men, i am going to come harder this time. If you think it is getting above the forum rules then i would beg to disagree, how would you or anybody on this forum feel if someone calls his or her brother or sis an animal! Should that gentleman feel ok if i tell him that you treat your sons as animals!

Ok not everyone is perfect, there might be lapses on the militay's part but when someone would come up with a stupid piece it has to be replied in the same coins.

i still maintain that if the same kinda episode is repeated i would respond harder, though i admit that i have been taking liberties.

i usalyy report the posts, but you missed that he called me a bas** and i never responded. That was something said to me, i accepted it, i didnt even report the post although it was a direct abuse.

Yes i am most of the time rude, but being disrespectful/insulting and rude are two different things sir!

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## qsaark

Xeric, my brother, many times you are right. But I do not acknowledge that only because of the tone you use in your posts. Go ahead and say you don&#8217;t care, after all you do not require validation from a faceless, nameless QSAARK. But this applies in real world too. You are an Army officer, asset of my country, we depend on you. If you lose temper so easily than how would you make rationale decisions? How would you lead those men your superiors have entrusted under your able command? You may have capacity to do that, but anger does blur thought process and can affect the critical decision making. There has to be difference between you and me, a soldier and a non-soldier. And in my opinion, being able to overcome your emotions under stressful situation is one such thing that distinguishes you, the MPs, from the rest of us. 

I will therefore request you not to take me wrong. Believe it or not, your recent posts on salaries, other benefits, plots etc. has significantly changed my perception. It would have done it earlier, or more so, only if you were should I say little less angry while typing.

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## Xeric

qsaark said:


> Xeric, my brother, many times you are right. But I do not acknowledge that only because of the tone you use in your posts. Go ahead and say you don&#8217;t care, after all you do not require validation from a faceless, nameless QSAARK. But this applies in real world too. You are an Army officer, asset of my country, we depend on you. If you lose temper so easily than how would you make rationale decisions? How would you lead those men your superiors have entrusted under your able command? You may have capacity to do that, but anger does blur thought process and can affect the critical decision making. There has to be difference between you and me, a soldier and a non-soldier. And in my opinion, being able to overcome your emotions under stressful situation is one such thing that distinguishes you, the MPs, from the rest of us.
> 
> I will therefore request you not to take me wrong. Believe it or not, your recent posts on salaries, other benefits, plots etc. has significantly changed my perception. It would have done it earlier, or more so, only if you were should I say little less angry while typing.



Lolzz.. qsaark, as i have already pointed out that different situations warrant different responses. If a person would push me i wouldnt and should not push him. If this incident take place in an over-crowded train and if i respond him with a push then i seriously have issues and i might not be fit for the military, but if that dud pushed me for fun, some may suggest that he should be given a bloody nose and others may suggest that an angry stare would do the job, some would even say that he should be ignored. Perceptions differ.

There would be a different response if someone stroke your hairs while sitting besides you and if he strokes your sisters (may not be real-just anyone) hair, now if someone responds to this situation with in a rude manner i would not call it getting angry or losing temper.

We in the military dont get angry. Anger has nothing to do in war.

i want to kill the enemy because i am angry on him an want to fire my rifle but cant do it as i dont have orders, what use my anger is of if i cant vent it out, so the net outcome is NOT to get angry, so sir we dont get angry unless we reach on the heads of the enemy when we have charged on to the enemy and want to kill him with our buoyant, there the anger might be justified, until then we keep our cool. 

As of being rude Army has nothing to do with it. 

Here's an example; i call the crow white, it is white no sir it is white, see i have a crow infront if me and it is white, cant you see it is white, hey you thick head it is white!!!! How on earth you cant see that it us white, how can a crow not be white? it is and has to be white! if you think it is not white then you are blind, crows are always white!!

Now if someone still goes to him and 'request' him that the crow is not white then that requesting-dude needs a medical check up, either that white-crow-dude is a physco case or he is doing it deliberately. i dont take the later as true as when a person can reason it means that he is not mentally ill, and he is OK, but he is calling the crow white just for the sake of it, and if someone knowing fully well ignores this then i doubt his brains and if someone (even) responds him with sarcasm, i dont term his being angry as this is what he has asked for.

There are many things which are known to the troller, but he is just posting it with a definite agenda, and that need to be taken care of right there. If someone calls it getting angry i dont mind.

BTW, the military has tested me and my anger (if you call it so) so many times and they have no issues with it. The tests have been in actual ops and routine matters, the check and balance that the military exercises on you are so deliberate and tight that you cant evade them by any means, and i passed them

BTW, do you talk with your parents, friends, brothers and enemies in the same manner? Not i guess, the tone that one keeps with a close friend is not kept with a strict teacher and the tone that you keep with childern is not kept with a helpline operator on the telephone. What say?


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

This thread has become meaningless. We can discuss the millitary gains and blunders---but talking about the other stuff is at times getting a little too nasty.


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## Xeric

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This thread has become meaningless. We can discuss the millitary gains and blunders---but talking about the other stuff is at times getting a little too nasty.



Re-Hi,

We missed you MK dear on this thread. Yes you are right this thread did become meaningless the day people on this thread stopped using their brians.


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## qsaark

xeric said:


> &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..BTW, do you talk with your parents, friends, brothers and enemies in the same manner? Not i guess, the tone that one keeps with a close friend is not kept with a strict teacher and the tine that you keep with children is not kept with a helpline operator on the telephone. What say?


The examples you have given above do not apply here. There is a discussion going on here, and people may write things that you don&#8217;t like of one or several reasons. However, let loose your anger and start using a foul language is against the rules and norms of carrying out a discussion. The forum members are not anyone&#8217;s parents, friends, or brothers, but they are not enemies as well. I carefully went through all the posts and found that *you used the foul language first*. Using foul language and expecting that other won&#8217;t retaliate, is not a good idea. Following are quotations from your posts:

Post # 18 &#8220;You need to get your brains refurbished&#8221;
Post# 21 &#8220;Ok how that fu** would it bother anybody&#8221;
Post # 23 &#8220;You are an idiot! Let me be very rude this time!&#8221;

It is only than that SB retaliated and used less than civil language. Even in reply to my post # 55, you started with &#8220;Lolzz.. qsaark&#8221;. Come on yaar, how lowly and insignificant you think others and their opinions are? Again in response to MK&#8217;s post you said &#8220;people on this thread stopped using their brains&#8221;.

As per your own statement, an officer with a full service of 35 years or so may have around 2-3 plots. If this is true, how will you explain the following property made by General Musharraf? Musharraf is not a son of a rich father, his father got promoted to the rank of a section officer (grade 17) just before his retirement.

(1) Under construction House in Army Housing Scheme Pt-II, Karachi.
(2) 2000 Sq. Yards in DHA, Karachi.
(3) 2xKanals in Morgah Housing Scheme, Rawalpindi.
(4) 1 and half Kanal in AWT (Army Welfare Trust) Housing Scheme, Peshawar.
(5) 8xMarlas in LCCHS, Lahore.
(6) 2xSquare agriculture land at Bahawalpur.

b. Parents' house in F-7/3, Islamabad.
c. Daughter's house in DHA (Defence), Karachi.
d. 1xKanal plot in Eastridge Scheme (09).
e. 2xKanals in Sangar Housing Scheme, Gwadar.

I hate to bring my personal stuff into discussion, but only for the sake of making it clear. My Dad retired after 36 year of service as a Director General (grade 21) from a government department. He managed to buy a house (Rs ~12 lakh) and a plot (Rs 3 lakh) only after his retirement from the money he got from his provident fund etc. And my parents are very careful when it comes to spend money. And this is all an honest officer would get at the end of his service even after retiring as a grade 21 officer in civilian sector. He is happy with whatever he has; his biggest investment was in his son&#8217;s education which surely is now paying him back. I have not mentioned this because I or my parents want more (Alhamdulillah, I managed to save in past 4 years more than my father saved during his entire government service), but just so that you can compare the difference between the Military and Civilian (Government) sector benefits.


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## Xeric

qsaark said:


> The examples you have given above do not apply here. There is a discussion going on here, and people may write things that you dont like of one or several reasons. However, let loose your anger and start using a foul language is against the rules and norms of carrying out a discussion. The forum members are not anyones parents, friends, or brothers, but they are not enemies as well. I carefully went through all the posts and found that *you used the foul language first*. Using foul language and expecting that other wont retaliate, is not a good idea. Following are quotations from your posts:
> 
> Post # 18 You need to get your brains refurbished
> Post# 21 Ok how that fu** would it bother anybody
> Post # 23 You are an idiot! Let me be very rude this time!
> 
> It is only than that SB retaliated and used less than civil language. Even in reply to my post # 55, you started with Lolzz.. qsaark. Come on yaar, how lowly and insignificant you think others and their opinions are? Again in response to MKs post you said people on this thread stopped using their brains.
> 
> As per your own statement, an officer with a full service of 35 years or so may have around 2-3 plots. If this is true, how will you explain the following property made by General Musharraf? Musharraf is not a son of a rich father, his father got promoted to the rank of a section officer (grade 17) just before his retirement.
> 
> (1) Under construction House in Army Housing Scheme Pt-II, Karachi.
> (2) 2000 Sq. Yards in DHA, Karachi.
> (3) 2xKanals in Morgah Housing Scheme, Rawalpindi.
> (4) 1 and half Kanal in AWT (Army Welfare Trust) Housing Scheme, Peshawar.
> (5) 8xMarlas in LCCHS, Lahore.
> (6) 2xSquare agriculture land at Bahawalpur.
> 
> b. Parents' house in F-7/3, Islamabad.
> c. Daughter's house in DHA (Defence), Karachi.
> d. 1xKanal plot in Eastridge Scheme (09).
> e. 2xKanals in Sangar Housing Scheme, Gwadar.
> 
> I hate to bring my personal stuff into discussion, but only for the sake of making it clear. My Dad retired after 36 year of service as a Director General (grade 21) from a government department. He managed to buy a house (Rs ~12 lakh) and a plot (Rs 3 lakh) only after his retirement from the money he got from his provident fund etc. And my parents are very careful when it comes to spend money. And this is all an honest officer would get at the end of his service even after retiring as a grade 21 officer in civilian sector. He is happy with whatever he has; his biggest investment was in his sons education which surely is now paying him back. I have not mentioned this because I or my parents want more (Alhamdulillah, I managed to save in past 4 years more than my father saved during his entire government service), but just so that you can compare the difference between the Military and Civilian (Government) sector benefits.




Oh Qsaark the same old ... (now you are again going to accuse me of foul language)

foul language is foul language when ever it is used. Should i quote the same language used by you? May it was against a suicide bomber. Anywaz, enough of this debate.

Coming back to the topic. To answer you i would say that the best answer that i can give is that you go ask Musharrf about his estates! or may be you can take him to court and ask him from where did he manage to make such property. He is no more the President so rest assured that ISI is not going to make you disappear

But let me tell you what i know:

Musharraf retired as a General, a minimum of his two houses/plots were from the Army (for which paid ofcourse). You said his father retired as a 17 grade officer, now tell me how many 17 grade officer were in his father's time? How many even Matric pass chaps did you find back in 60s or 70s? How many engineers were there then, how many doctors were there? How many MBAs or M Phils did you find in 60s/70s when you compare then now a days. A 17 grade officer back then in 60s/70s was a hell of a thing as compared to his colleagues.

Do something for me, find someone from you friends whose father retired as a 17 grade officer and find another whose father was not a 17 grade officer, try to compare the number of plots they both have now and you'll get the answer. When most of the people were like: one earner and 9 eaters, cant you see the progress and difference between a family (A) one whose father was a govt servant and the other (family B) whose father was a shop keeper. Family As sons grew up and started earning while the father was still getting his pension-more income to the family and family B, when the father was no more able to sit in the shop, the shop had to be manned by one of the sons, thus yiou have no more income and you have a father whom you have to take guud care of. Compare both the families,, which would be having a greater chance to get a plot? Family A has earners and family B has only 1. So this is the difference between retiring as a 17 grader and not.

Moreover Mush earned for 35 years, and your father earned for 36 years. Not much of a difference, but the difference is there, when Mush was earning your father was studying. A militaryman is earning when he is 18 and his classfellow would start earning by around 22-24 at the earliest if he has to do atleast Masters. Now those 4 years means alot! here it is how. fauji is earning and might be assisting his family but a none fauji is not, not only he is NOT earning but getting more money from his parents for studies. Does it make a huge difference? it does! By the time my classfellows got a job i was having a bike, a tv, a full furnished room, an expensive cell phone, guud amount of cloths and other accessories, was assisting my parents/siblings and fulfilling many minor other requirements from my own pocket without burdening my parents. 

On the other hand a few of my classfellows had already taken huge loans for their studies! Most of my fellow friends in the military had already made the items that they would have required after their marriages thus saving burden of the same. This is one.

Second:
*Parents' house in F-7/3, Islamabad*: From where did your parents get their house?
*
Daughter's house in DHA (Defence), Karachi*: Where does your daughter lives (if she is married), its probably is her husband's house.

*(1) Under construction House in Army Housing Scheme Pt-II, Karachi.
(2) 2000 Sq. Yards in DHA, Karachi.
(3) 2xKanals in Morgah Housing Scheme, Rawalpindi.
(4) 1 and half Kanal in AWT (Army Welfare Trust) Housing Scheme, Peshawar.
(5) 8xMarlas in LCCHS, Lahore.
(6) 2xSquare agriculture land at Bahawalpur.
* A few of these are from the Army (paid ofcourse). The rest: Mush was an Ace officer of Pak Army, meaning thereby he had alot of foreign tours to his name, he earned it bro, he worked had, was declared the best and was chosen for these incentives. He has been abroad quite a few times.* But that's only Mush NOT ALL Officer go abroad, and YES but all Generals have been abroad and that is why they today have risen to the Rank of a General*. i have been abroad for once and earned a handsome amount and bought something very expensive (it was not a Ferrari).

Generals are the cream of our army. They have been on secondments, courses and given special tasks thus they earn more as compared to a normal Officer who has to retire as a Major. So it has to be like this that you might fond a Major roaming in a Honda City and another Major in Suzuki Mehran; the reason being that the later has been to some UN Mission for one year stayed there away from his family for one year, faced the hardships of Law Enforcement, endangered his life and then in turn earned more as compared to the other Officer.* BUT these are so few that they can be counted on finger tips* And dear, the future Generals have to be within these GUUD officers who are more competent more learnered and more hard working! So ultimately they have started earning more since the very start!! Now if someone says that one becomes rich when he becomes a General is plain WRONG!!

Mind it again, these kinda officers are very few! How many generals are there actually? Get the ratio yourself. See the total number of officers in the army and how many make it to the generalship!!

Moreover, Mush was from SSG! right, meaning thereby he was earning a minimum or Rs 5000 to 6000 MORE than a Non SSG Officer! A clear advantage, meaning thereby he was able to save Rs 5000 each month easily as other officers (None SSG) of his rank and service were able to live a guud life even if they were not getting this Rs 5K bonus!!

Multiply 5 with 12 a year and you got your down payment for any plot in Pakistan!!!!!!!!!! and he stayed there for quite a few years bro!
If he could buy a plot from civilian sector as a captain or major who stops him, atleast the Army wont!!

Only this Rs 5K bonus alone can justify his most of the property dear!!!

Let me tell you more: once when i was a lieut i was deployed at the borders, guess what when i returned and check my balance in the bank i had RS 40000, wow!! Now many ranters would say how on earth can a poor fauji save that much of money. Here;s the answer. i myself was surprised, after through analysis i found out this:

*i didnt go on leave for 10 moths:* meaning there by saving approx 10K to 15K on each trip.
*

There was no KFC, Mcdonalds, Usmainia, Subway, MM Alam Road,etc etc*: thus saving some amount.

*There was no cellular coverage:*Thus i was able to save my cell ph expense.

*i was living in a tent with a lantern to light it up and not in my home:* thus no electricity, gas, water bills.

*My bike/car was not available to me:* No petrol expense.
*
There were no marriages, functions, birthdays, aftar parties, gatherings:* i.e. No need to buy new cloths-lots of saving.
*
i used to in the uniform most iof the time, or else the few sweat shorts/track suits/shots that i used to work out in:* i.e not wearing any fancy cloths and shoes, thus extending there life as they were lying either in my trunk or hangers in my room. Though i have to buy more uniforms.
*
There was no TV:* i.e NO cable bill.

i had to eat only dall or vegetables as the meat was not readily available: thus lowering by food expense.
*
No Pepsis, no nimko chaska, no no Lays chips, no chewing gums, no pastries from the bakery, no salad as appetizers etc etc:* thus lowering my mess bill.
*
No movies to watch, no gamer Cds, no internet to surf on etc etc:* Thus saving more money!!

etc etc...

So i had Rs 57K in my kitty and guess what, when i came back i came to know that my father had applied for a plot in a housing scheme opened by his employer and had got his name in the ballot, and is desperately in need of money and is planning to sell the old bike that he had (not being used as we also had a car). So you know what i gave 50 K from my pocket and got the plot booked which now amounts to ,may be 17 lacs. Now if someone is going tp ask me from where did my *Parents' house in F-7/3, Islamabad* came from i am sure going to kick his azz (oops more foul lang)

And guess what from the remaining 7 K i bought a latest DVD player, which when my friends see do ask me hey from where can you afford such a luxury and i am like @#!&...

Now this episode has not happened for once, it keeps on coming!

Lastly: most of the officers live independently i.e their parents are not dependent on them. One of the reasons is that their parents know that if they will ask them to feed them it would be difficult for the both the parties. Let me show you an example. A friend of mine is earning a bit more than me, but he has 6 kids, a sister, parents to feed (though there are his brother who are also earning as guud as he does), but i dont have to do this. i love to support my parents, every Son wants to does!, but it is occasional, and thankfully my father is still earning. i do support them, if not them but my younger brothers as that is what we Pakistanis do, but still i am at ease as compared to that friend of mine. Got it?

Now i am waiting when i manage to go abroad again so that when i return i could buy a few more plots!!!

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## Patriot

Also Musharraf was COAS for almost 9 years.According to rule added by the great so called Islamic General Zia ul Huq the active COAS gets 3&#37; from any defence deal (I think it's more then 3% Muradk and X-man can confirm this).So i am sure he got lots of money from these deals.Again I am not saying this rule is good but it was added by General zia who is quite popular among Islamists.


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## EyelessInGaza

^^ 3% from a deal, as a _rule_? That's not possible.


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## Patriot

It is unfortunately.You can confirm from Muradk or X-man.Mr Zia totally screwed the Army.I also read in a pilot book that Zia used to pay for expenses of some guy in Japan (from GOP Revenue) who was i think Zia's relative.

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## qsaark

xeric said:


> Oh Qsaark the same old ... (now you are again going to accuse me of foul language).................


Now this is the xeric I appericiate. Thanks dude, there are things in your post I dont agree completely with, but overall, I am pretty much convinced.


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## sonicboom

qsaark said:


> The examples you have given above do not apply here. There is a discussion going on here, and people may write things that you don&#8217;t like of one or several reasons. However, let loose your anger and start using a foul language is against the rules and norms of carrying out a discussion. The forum members are not anyone&#8217;s parents, friends, or brothers, but they are not enemies as well. I carefully went through all the posts and found that *you used the foul language first*. Using foul language and expecting that other won&#8217;t retaliate, is not a good idea. Following are quotations from your posts:
> 
> Post # 18 &#8220;You need to get your brains refurbished&#8221;
> Post# 21 &#8220;Ok how that fu** would it bother anybody&#8221;
> Post # 23 &#8220;You are an idiot! Let me be very rude this time!&#8221;
> 
> It is only than that SB retaliated and used less than civil language. Even in reply to my post # 55, you started with &#8220;Lolzz.. qsaark&#8221;. Come on yaar, how lowly and insignificant you think others and their opinions are? Again in response to MK&#8217;s post you said &#8220;people on this thread stopped using their brains&#8221;.
> 
> As per your own statement, an officer with a full service of 35 years or so may have around 2-3 plots. If this is true, how will you explain the following property made by General Musharraf? Musharraf is not a son of a rich father, his father got promoted to the rank of a section officer (grade 17) just before his retirement.
> 
> (1) Under construction House in Army Housing Scheme Pt-II, Karachi.
> (2) 2000 Sq. Yards in DHA, Karachi.
> (3) 2xKanals in Morgah Housing Scheme, Rawalpindi.
> (4) 1 and half Kanal in AWT (Army Welfare Trust) Housing Scheme, Peshawar.
> (5) 8xMarlas in LCCHS, Lahore.
> (6) 2xSquare agriculture land at Bahawalpur.
> 
> b. Parents' house in F-7/3, Islamabad.
> c. Daughter's house in DHA (Defence), Karachi.
> d. 1xKanal plot in Eastridge Scheme (09).
> e. 2xKanals in Sangar Housing Scheme, Gwadar.
> 
> I hate to bring my personal stuff into discussion, but only for the sake of making it clear. My Dad retired after 36 year of service as a Director General (grade 21) from a government department. He managed to buy a house (Rs ~12 lakh) and a plot (Rs 3 lakh) only after his retirement from the money he got from his provident fund etc. And my parents are very careful when it comes to spend money. And this is all an honest officer would get at the end of his service even after retiring as a grade 21 officer in civilian sector. He is happy with whatever he has; his biggest investment was in his son&#8217;s education which surely is now paying him back. I have not mentioned this because I or my parents want more (Alhamdulillah, I managed to save in past 4 years more than my father saved during his entire government service), but just so that you can compare the difference between the Military and Civilian (Government) sector benefits.



An excellent post! And I very much regret that I used foul language once or twice in my post but I was forced to do so. Honestly I have no grudge against army officers and I respect them very much. 

However, at the same time I also feel that they earn their salary from a department which runs on taxes paid by Pakistani people and I considered them as their servants.

My only concern is their involvement in real estate business and the double standard set by the GHQ, controlled by officers, when it comes to offering perks and benefits to army Officers and NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s. 

*Few quotes from the national assembly:*

&#8220;The National Assembly was informed on Monday, September 8, 2003 that during the last 12 years of both political and military regimes (1990-2002) *a total of 34 defense officers housing schemes of various sizes for officers of the Pakistan Army was established over an area of almost 1,000 acres of land. Out of 34, only two housing schemes of 15 acres have been launched for NCO&#8217;s/JCOs*.&#8221;

&#8220;During question hour in the parliament it has transpired that military officers get one after 15 years of service, a second one after 25, a third one after 28 years and a fourth one after 33 years of service each worth more than 15 million rupees in the open market.&#8221; 

Would it be wrong to say that those housing schemes are denying the right of hundred and thousands of NOC&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s, who also remain on the frontline while laying down their lives in the defense of the mother home land?

Just compare the ratio of NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s to the officers and its mind boggling that officers being less than 2&#37; of the population are being rewarded 98% of the real estate benefits. Put it in simple words, GHQ controlled by officers, is busy in *&#8216;bandar bant&#8217;*, creating lucrative housing societies for the chosen people (officers) by awarding them large plots at dirt-cheap prices and in turn they sell them off to civilians and make huge profits while at the same time ignoring NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s. 

It would be interesting to check how many of the original allottees still lived in these housing societies and how many have made quick money by disposing their plots of. Morale is very low and the poor soldiers and ranks have a seething hatred towards the top brass who have become millionairs. It is for these reasons that recently general Kayani has given wage raises and few other privileges to the lower ranks and soldiers to rectify the situation. But is that enough?

Wasalam


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## Muradk

Patriot said:


> It is unfortunately.You can confirm from Muradk or X-man.Mr Zia totally screwed the Army.I also read in a pilot book that Zia used to pay for expenses of some guy in Japan (from GOP Revenue) who was i think Zia's relative.




Ok lets start from here members please this is to tell you that it was not Zia who put Islam in every thing it was his chumchas/lota Polititians who did it.
Second yes all 3 COAS (ARMY), PAF, NAVY get 3 % commission because when they take over there pension plan go into any other project he desires, Tanveer's C-pension of 36 lacks went to PAF ACADEMY. 
Third you serve your country for Max 29 to 36 years in that time you are given medals, Each medal has its perks. SJ gets more pay plus a plot for free and 10 acres of Agricultural land, TJ gets the same, TBT and SBT get a free plot other medals get perks as welll but after you serve 14 years you are completely vested in it and you get a plot to make a house. A Civilian will never understand that a fauji wakes up at 4 in the morning at 6 am he is on work and no time stated for him to go home , We were always told you guys are GDPs the best of the best bull we had to wake up 3am used to comeback at 4pm, while the engg and other branches used to work 7am to 2.30 pm.

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## sonicboom

Muradk said:


> SJ gets more pay plus a plot for free and 10 acres of Agricultural land, TJ gets the same, TBT and SBT get a free plot other medals get perks as welll but after you serve 14 years you are completely vested in it and you get a plot to make a house.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir an excellent point. And I would like to add that it should also be observed that generals are getting commercial plots in city centers, which were worth 200 times more in market value than the million rupees and any plot given to the dependents of a Nishan-i-Haider Shaheed. This shows the low priority attached to gallantry and the high priority attached to other qualities.
Click to expand...


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## Muradk

sonicboom said:


> Sir an excellent point. And I would like to add that it should also be observed that generals are getting commercial plots in city centers, which were worth 200 times more in market value than the million rupees and any plot given to the dependents of a Nishan-i-Haider Shaheed. This shows the low priority attached to gallantry and the high priority attached to other qualities.



Very true when I was appointed as Add Sec Def , Army put there foot down on the MIN that first 9 officer of ours will get appointment then your PAF guy gets his. *Gis ki Lathi us ki Bhense* bro


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## EyelessInGaza

Patriot said:


> It is unfortunately.You can confirm from Muradk or X-man.Mr Zia totally screwed the Army.I also read in a pilot book that Zia used to pay for expenses of some guy in Japan (from GOP Revenue) who was i think Zia's relative.



Thanks for the reply bro. But I am still not sure I understand this completely. I think Muradk mentioned that the chief's pensions go to some charitable/socially relevant project and, presumably, in return they get the 3%. I get that - so far.

But 3% of the value of a deal (*if *that is the case) can be a heck of a lot! You can easily have billion dollar defence deals these days; 3% of a deal that's worth just a billion dollars is 30 million USD.


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## sonicboom

*x_man*

Sorry for delayed reply as I just came back from forced leave (was banned). (lol) 

Thank you for being so courteous in your reply and that's what I expect at least from Military Professionals.



x_man said:


> Errrrr&#8230;. he actually runs the forum if you couldn&#8217;t figure it out till now&#8230;
> :



I just did after you told me. Thank you!




> *Wrong once again*&#8230;.You know how many members this forum has: 17, 349 and out of these how many Mil Prof ??? Well just 16. And not all these MPs are from Pakistan. They are from Australia, USA , UK and even INDIA , so saying that PDF only supports Pakistani POV, is way off the mark.
> 
> No forum member even an MP ( previous Think Tanks) is above the forum rules. If you do not know, I too have been banned once from this forum for being unreasonable. There have been TT wwho were stripped off their titles and many other senior Pakistani members banned for trespassing the rules. So if you think that Admin of this forum is protecting MPs then you are putting just another baseless allegation that you have been doing uptill now.:



Well I did have some concerns as indicated by other members too but now I am ok. Thank you again!





> Yeh truth is bitter and sometimes counter Truth is even bitter. Xeric has very well countered all the missiles you fired at him and forces , and I guess you have nothing to add on the subject.



I do have but I as stated in one of my other posts, I consider that discussion to be closed. Thank you again!




> Gibberish&#8230;.I know countless guys whose dads were in Armed forces and the boys never made it thru ISSB in both attempts. Hundreds and thousands of guys appear in ISSB each year and very few are selected. And all those who never get it thru, have only one thing to say: ISSB main sirf sifarish chalti hai&#8230;.So typical. Have you ever met a single guy who said that he couldn&#8217;t do well in the group tasks, or intelligence tests or Interview??? They all blame it on ISSB as you are doing too&#8230;.Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to ISSB???



Once again I had some concerns that I had seen or heard and you had given me the clarfication that I *accept*. In addition to that, you could have also said in their support that sons and daughters of officers live on the bases and they are raised accordingly and they know the process. Also they have the privilege to go to Public schools on highly subsidized rates giving them an overall advantage in ISSB.



> If you are here to win anything then you never will. Because there is nothing to win or lose here. &#8230;.No one really gives a hoot..
> 
> In PAF one and this thread, you first tried to divide the opinion of members against our Armed forces by misleading them with false information and now you are attempting to divide people by directly confronting the Admin team and their powers on this forum. No MOD or Webby send you the invitation at your home to join PDF&#8230;.If you cant stand them or other members then no one is compelling you to stay here&#8230;..



No Sir, I am not here to win but to participate in some of the debates those concerned me the most.

Once again it was not my intention to divide anyone and I would be careful in future in that regards. 

You are absolutely correct that no one invited me to this forum and I also have the option not to stay here. However, in a same token, I can also point out that anyone who is complaining about the hardship in the military have the same options. They joined the officer cadre with their own desire and no one invited or forced them to do so and they did it with the understanding of what is expected of them. In return they are handsomely paid with all the perks and benefits. Where in the Pakistan, a FA or at the most BA passed can get a job like a commissioned officer and at retirement being a millionaire? If they don&#8217;t like it, then they have the option to leave and I am sure there is 1000&#8217;s in line that would be happy to take their place as jobless rate in Pakistan is very high.

Thanks again!
Wasalam


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Thank you everyone for returning to civil discourse.

I see that both sides are accepting some points from the opposing side as being valid.

Please continue in this vein and try and _listen_ (figuratively speaking) to the explanations/arguments from the other side.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Where in the Pakistan, a FA or at the most BA passed can get a job like a commissioned officer and at retirement being a millionaire?



I don't like the fact that even if I finish my PhD in Engineering, I won't earn close to what a Physician does (in most cases).

That's life - the Military has taken care of its own, and invested in businesses and projects that provide benefits for military retirees, avenues for continued employment for military retirees as well as plenty of taxes for the State.

Military Officers therefore perhaps retire relatively better off than other government employees - but that alone is not reason enough to criticize them.

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## sonicboom

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I don't like the fact that even if I finish my PhD in Engineering, I won't earn close to what a Physician does (in most cases).
> 
> That's life - the Military has taken care of its own, and invested in businesses and projects that provide benefits for military retirees, avenues for continued employment for military retirees as well as plenty of taxes for the State.
> 
> Military Officers therefore perhaps retire relatively better off than other government employees - but that alone is not reason enough to criticize them.



Congratulations on you Phd. What's your major? 

Sir your point very well taken. But I was pointing more to hardship complaints than anything else. How about having the same for the NCO's/JCO's too? Why to have this disparity? Let the standard be the same.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sonicboom said:


> Congratulations on you Phd. What's your major?


Haven't even started it yet - on my masters. In fact I may drop my plans for the PhD and do a second masters in Polit. Science/Finance/Economics (yes, even after the financial fiasco).


> Sir your point very well taken. But I would like to see the same for the NCO's/JCO's too. Why to have this disparity? Let the standard be the same.


I don't think you will have equality in terms of the quantity of compensation between officers and Jawans, just like you cannot have equality of compensation for two individuals in the same corporation - one with a high school degree and one with a masters.

I think where the Military should focus (and Gen. Kiyani seems to have initiated steps in this regard), is on trying to reduce the disparity in benefits and facilities such as equal access to health care, schools, housing etc.

Xeric may be able to better elucidate upon the extent of the disparities in these areas, if any.


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## Muradk

sonicboom said:


> Congratulations on you Phd. What's your major?
> 
> Sir your point very well taken. But I was pointing more to hardship complaints than anything else. How about having the same for the NCO's/JCO's too? Why to have this disparity? Let the standard be the same.



If you have a PHD in Engg interested in working on JF-17s.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Muradk said:


> If you have a PHD in Engg interested in working on JF-17s.



I would love to sir, and thank you for the offer, but I am still working on my first masters in EE, and as I said, I am not sure if I have the drive to go for a PhD.

But thank you again for suggesting the possibility - perhaps when I am done with my education, and if there is still a need and my qualifications suffice ...


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## sonicboom

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Haven't even started it yet - on my masters. In fact I may drop my plans for the PhD and do a second masters in Polit. Science/Finance/Economics (yes, even after the financial fiasco).
> 
> I don't think you will have equality in terms of the quantity of compensation between officers and Jawans, just like you cannot have equality of compensation for two individuals in the same corporation - one with a high school degree and one with a masters.
> 
> I think where the Military should focus (and Gen. Kiyani seems to have initiated steps in this regard), is on trying to reduce the disparity in benefits and facilities such as equal access to health care, schools, housing etc.
> 
> Xeric may be able to better elucidate upon the extent of the disparities in these areas, if any.



Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCOs/JCOs. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOCs/JCOs with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?

Any problem with that?


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## sonicboom

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I would love to sir, and thank you for the offer, but I am still working on my first masters in EE, and as I said, I am not sure if I have the drive to go for a PhD.
> 
> But thank you again for suggesting the possibility - perhaps when I am done with my education, and if there is still a need and my qualifications suffice ...



Univ of Michigan or Michigan State Univ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sonicboom said:


> Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2&#37; of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOC&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?
> 
> Any problem with that?



What you are referring to is 'compensation' - benefits such as premium housing facilities are part of the compensation package of officers.

I don't think arguing for complete equality in this form of compensation is a valid argument either. Going back to my high school graduate vs masters degree analogy, if housing allowances were available to the two, the latter would likely get a larger housing allowance enabling him/her to live in a larger house in a more upscale neighborhood.

The idea behind compensation is not to 'give the Jawaan's a chance at becoming millionaires as well', but to try and provide them with decent housing. It does not necessarily have to be at the level of the officers, or in premium locations.

Now if there is space available at or around the current housing societies to expand the housing significantly enough to cater to more Jawan's, then go for it. BUt if the cost is going to be astronomical, then perhaps some other options should be looked at.

Again, Xeric may be able to expound further, but that is life, just as most high school graduates cannot expect to have the same benefits and income as PhD's.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sonicboom said:


> Univ of Michigan or Michigan State Univ?



Neither ... though I was at MSU for a while during my undergrad.


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## Xeric

i actually planned to stay away from you for guud as i felt that your concerns and queries never would have merit a reply or clarification, but then i started feeling that it is not deliberate it is actually your real lack of understanding to the military affairs in particular and the normal working of any institution in general. So here it goes:



sonicboom said:


> However, in a same token, I can also point out that anyone who is complaining about the hardship in the military have the same options. They joined the officer cadre with their own desire and no one invited or forced them to do so and they did it with the understanding of what is expected of them.


You are absolutely right to say that they knew what was coming at them and they joined in voluntarily, but unfortunately many also did know about this fact. How many teenagers actually know what actual hardships would one face on joining the military? Did you know how a banker works until you become one yourself? or can you know how an architect has to work or what hardships he has to face unless you are not in this profession? Reading stories about military hardships is one thing and experiencing them first hand is second. Going to the States as a bachelor for studies is a different experience with different worries, and going back there again after being married and a kid has different effects and bearing. Did the bachelor knew how would a 'marriage' affect him in the same location? No! You must have heard how does it feels if you take a bullet, you might have listened ti first hand experiences but sir you'll never knew about the actual pain unless you got one yourself. How a man can even understand a woman's labor pain when he dont have an iota of similarities.

Ok.

But this is NO EXCUSE! If i was not knowing before hand what i am getting into before joining the military and now when i have joined in i feel that this military business is not my baby, so should quit, that's it. Raise your hand and go home! That's acceptable, but not many do that. Not only because they are afraid that after they quit would they be getting a job outside, but because of sheer determination! Some take it as a challenge, others take it as a life. Some say it you are tough, dude i am tougher, others, let's see how hard it can be, i was born to face the hardships!

Not many has the guts to take life like this.

i know many who when asked if you wanna join the military would say, heck no, i am not ready to get my life ruined, who needs to kill his normal life and be the boots.

So sir if they have joined it they had the water to face the blunt and not to duck.

Allow me to give you my personal example (it's so bad toi give one's on, though):
i am a position holder in FSc! in board exams ofcourse!

i got my entry tests cleared in:
FAST Karachi

IBA, Karachi.

GIK.

NED Karachi.

i left these and started doing CA at Tabanis, Karachi BUT, then i left it in the favor if the Army!! Now that's need something more than a _dhaka_ to join the Army. Today, only if today i want to quit i can and i am sure with the military credits behind my back i can join a better paid job, but we dont quit! Understand or Cycle stand?



> In return they are handsomely paid with all the perks and benefits.


Sir if you say that the are 'handsomely' paid then you are gravely mistaken! if you consider Rs 6000/- as a bisic pay when someone joins in as a Grade 17 Officer who has been granted Commission by the President, as HANDSOME, you need to visit the definition of the word sir. Add the allowances and you land up somewhere around Rs 8K-9K. A dude who has to pay for his food (everybody does but not the way officers had to pay due to many reasons-to be discussed later), uniform, electricity, gas, water, etc etc, and most importantly to live as a human being! It is like living in a hostel, a college hostel, have you been to one? ty to find out how much your parents had to pay for that? Try to sum up the expenses you require at the college hostel, the uniforms, the furniture (or may be they give that as part of the room), the food, the mess subs, the pocket money that you require etc etc, take the tuition fee and book expense out of it. BUT I AM TALKING ABOUT A HOSTEL WHICH LET YOU STAY HUMAN!! I MEAN YOU CAN GET A HOSTEL ROOM RS 2000 A MONTH BUT DID YOU GO TO ITS WASHROOM? OR HAVE YOU SEEN THE CONDITION OF ITS FURNITURE OR THE MESS STANDARD THEY PROVIDE YOU WITH? So the emphasis is on quality! officer like quality!
i challenge you if you can come up with a Human Like Hostel which can be maintained within Rs 10K !! Messing included. Dont give me the example of a Sarkari Hostel which are available for Rs 15 K per year and everybody in the morning is standing in their vests in a queue with a towel on one shoulder and a toothbrush in their mouths!! Oh i forgot to mention who has to buy the curtains, carpet mattress, pay the electric/gas/water bills etc etc. And if you forgot, we are not in that room because if to STUDY we are there living a normal life like any human who needs a TV, something to listen, some crockery, lots of cloths, cable and stuff may be an internet connection etc etc!! Let me see if you can get me these in RS 10K a month! And then i'll talk about the pays of senior captains and major there after.



> Where in the Pakistan, a FA or at the most BA passed can get a job like a commissioned officer


Lolzz... this is why i dont feel like answering you.

Sir if you think that 'they' are just ordinary FA and BAs you are slightly mistaken! i have said a 100 times on this forum that what fun it is if you pass you Matric in a 'D' grade, and tomorrow you would complain to the govt for not letting you have a job. Who the heck is going to give a job even to an engineer who has merely passed his degree with a worthless GPA? Coming back to the point. they are not just 1 x FA or BA, they are BETTER then their like of their batch in schools, colleges all over Pakistan that out of 14000-17000 only 300-400 make into PMA and only 250-300 actually get pass the PMA Gate!! Let you not be comparing then with a dude who is FA and cant write an application for _chotti_..oops i lowered my standards!

To answer you completely, for your kind information i have a cousin who is simple DAE (Diploma of Associate Engineer) which is actually equivalent to FSc and guess what he got his first job in a private company with a starting pay of Rs 20000/- !! Surprised? i have a neighbor, not exactly a neighbor who was simple BA and got a job in a garment factory in Lahore which exports its jeans to USA, and guess what, his start salary was RS 25000/-

Oh may be they were much better then their competitors? As the dudes are who get pass the ISSB! As i have mentioned earlier not every officer becomes a general, not every Grade 1 officer in a bank makes a VP, not every ASP makes an IG etc etc similarly not every Masters or MBA gets the same job and salary scale as a few does. Now tomorrow i may find you arguing with me that why dont we get every engineer a 50K job, or why cant every scientist can invent something new! 



> and at retirement being a millionaire?


Ahan, discussed down the drain!
But still, i'll like to add that say thanx to the excellent care that the military takes of its employees who give their prime youth period to the military while sitting on mountains and deserts! The reasons have been amply explained by Agno, only if you want to see them.


> If they don&#8217;t like it, then they have the option to leave and I am sure there is 1000&#8217;s in line that would be happy to take their place as jobless rate in Pakistan is very high.


No sir not many would be ready!

If they might be ready they might not fit the criteria required by the military.

Not many like to leave their cozy lives, let me assure you, i have seen duckers quite frequently!

As for the unemployment rate, try to see some Sunday Newspaper and see the list of jobs, i have been through this for my brother, and surprisingly it came to me that the job says we only need those guys to apply whose GPA is 3.9, only APPLY, dude what to talk about getting the job -they dont even want to waste their time on an MBA who has a GPA lower than that threshold! So sir if most of us are going to get a pathetic grade and then complain of unemployment who has to be blamed? Govt, i guess, so please do so. Though i dont say that we dont have a high unemployment rate, yes we do, and that's a separate debate, so may be some other time.

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## Xeric

sonicboom said:


> But I was pointing more to hardship complaints than anything else. How about having the same for the NCO's/JCO's too? Why to have this disparity? Let the standard be the same.



Another argument which i dont feel like answering but then i think that if i am not tell you who would? 

But anywaz; so you want to suggest in your argument that as the President of Pakistan is also given a Palace to live the same should also be given to his driver. You want to suggest that a DAE (Diploma of Associate Engineer) and a BE (Bachelor of Engineering) should be given the same pay rate and the same privileges, you want to suggest that a teacher who is holding a Masters Degree and a PhD should be given the same appointment/designation and not to mention that same pay and pension. Ok point noted, would submit in the next Corp commanders conference!

And guess what i will tell my fellow pakistanis that there is no need to get past your Matric class as you would also be compensated as an engineer would be in future as Sir Sonic was able to get the laws changed.

In the previous post i talked about a cousin of mine who joined in as a DAE (Electronics) in some company and was paid Rs 20000/- i wonder why did the same company started paying him Rs 60000/- when he completed his BE while taking a study leave first, and then quitting the job for a while so that he can complete his degree when he re-joined the same company as an _pakka_ Engineers?

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## Xeric

sonicboom said:


> Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCOs/JCOs. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOCs/JCOs with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?
> 
> Any problem with that?



Ok.

i will suggest WAPDA to give XEN and Lineman the same number of free units, the same office. i will also talk with Nawaz Shareef as an owner of Itifaq Sugar Mills to give his workers the same privileges as he gives to his Officers, let's see what they do? Oh by the way it is you who is being bothered, why dont you make a move and do this honor yourself and then enlighten us of the results?


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## pakistanMYheart

@xeric

I really think that the package that armed forces people get, for their work is not according to their status, and the kind of work they do. If some one takes the same level of responsibility in a private company, he would definitely be paid a lot more. And, for example as you stated, that you cleared the entrance test to many reputed educational institutes before joining Army. Had you pursued a non-Army profession, you would have been better off financially.

But, we have to look at one thing. There is a difference in spending public money and private money.

Private money is generated by individuals, and they can do whatever they choose to do with it (as long as they pay taxes and fulfil their mandatory obligations toward the country). But, public money is generated by tax payers, by paying taxes. It cannot be used like private money. So, let us say spending a certain amount of private money is commonplace, but if you spend the same amount of public money, people will point fingers at you.

For example, recently some of our ministers visited USA alongwith the president. Some media reports suggest that they stayed in the best hotels, and each person almost spent a couple of thousands of dollars daily. Whether the report is true or not, I suppose that there are many individuals who have enough private money, and can afford to stay in the same hotels. And many of them do spend that amount. But, that is private money, no one points fingers at them.

We have all read in the history of Islam, about one of the Caliphs. When he was sitting in his office, and some one came to meet him in personal capacity, he would put off the lamp that he had bought from public money, and would put on the lamp that he had bought from his private money.

So, specially for countries like Pakistan, the public money cannot be spent on anything lavish, till the time the government has looked after ALL THE PROBLEMS of ALL THE PEOPLE. Till such time, public money is to be used as judiciously as possible. This would automatically mean, that people who are being paid out of public money, would get minimalistic pays. 

Of course, there are other considerations too. Like, if the government employees are paid less, will the money that is saved by this measure, be used on some thing good? or, if government employees are paid less, will they be able to work with the same motivations, that is desired? ... ...

A compromise has to be made.

Basically, I wanted to highlight the reason why a small blunder by public servants, or a small privilege being enjoyed by public servants is high lighted so much. Public money is not private money. 

What do you say ... ?


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## Xeric

pakistanMYheart said:


> @xeric
> 
> I really think that the package that armed forces people get, for their work is not according to their status, and the kind of work they do. If some one takes the same level of responsibility in a private company, he would definitely be paid a lot more. And, for example as you stated, that you cleared the entrance test to many reputed educational institutes before joining Army. Had you pursued a non-Army profession, you would have been better off financially.
> 
> But, we have to look at one thing. There is a difference in spending public money and private money.
> 
> Private money is generated by individuals, and they can do whatever they choose to do with it (as long as they pay taxes and fulfil their mandatory obligations toward the country). But, public money is generated by tax payers, by paying taxes. It cannot be used like private money. So, let us say spending a certain amount of private money is commonplace, but if you spend the same amount of public money, people will point fingers at you.
> 
> For example, recently some of our ministers visited USA alongwith the president. Some media reports suggest that they stayed in the best hotels, and each person almost spent a couple of thousands of dollars daily. Whether the report is true or not, I suppose that there are many individuals who have enough private money, and can afford to stay in the same hotels. And many of them do spend that amount. But, that is private money, no one points fingers at them.
> 
> We have all read in the history of Islam, about one of the Caliphs. When he was sitting in his office, and some one came to meet him in personal capacity, he would put off the lamp that he had bought from public money, and would put on the lamp that he had bought from his private money.
> 
> So, specially for countries like Pakistan, the public money cannot be spent on anything lavish, till the time the government has looked after ALL THE PROBLEMS of ALL THE PEOPLE. Till such time, public money is to be used as judiciously as possible. This would automatically mean, that people who are being paid out of public money, would get minimalistic pays.
> 
> Of course, there are other considerations too. Like, if the government employees are paid less, will the money that is saved by this measure, be used on some thing good? or, if government employees are paid less, will they be able to work with the same motivations, that is desired? ... ...
> 
> A compromise has to be made.
> 
> Basically, I wanted to highlight the reason why a small blunder by public servants, or a small privilege being enjoyed by public servants is high lighted so much. Public money is not private money.
> 
> What do you say ... ?



You are correct!

And we all know that milities are NON-PROFIT Organizations, it just spend money and dont generate it to be paid as bonuses.

But let me assure you had we in the military started using the public money as per our requirements, legitimate ofourse, our country would gave gone bankrupt 25 years ago, you cant even imagine how much pain is taken to save a liter of diesel and how much check and balance is exercised and effort is put in to make a decision to spend a Rs 1 from the public fund i.e. the equipment-guns ammo etc that has been bought from this fund by others and provided to the Army.


What do you think that if had the military been only a BIT, A BIT more lavish in its spending-legit ofcourse, we as a Nation already had been doomed, sir.

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## Muradk

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> I would love to sir, and thank you for the offer, but I am still working on my first masters in EE, and as I said, I am not sure if I have the drive to go for a PhD.
> 
> But thank you again for suggesting the possibility - perhaps when I am done with my education, and if there is still a need and my qualifications suffice ...



What ever you decide do it in 3 years other wise my student Chairman karma will either retire or become COAS yes time is of the essence the only bad thing will be that you would have to surrender your other nationality to get top secret clearance, But the perk is that you are inducted as a 19 grade officer, House, Car , Servants all the perks a Group Capt gets, You will not be saluted vice versa but your advancement will be faster than a officer. Plus what else do you need you will be working on the future of PAF, As an Engg advisor you will love it, and one thing is really good that you get a lot of money for RND last 3 engg worked with the PAF engg and came up with our own 
indiginous UCAV, Plus our Kamra civilian engg also worked on Al-khalid targeting system which is so good that the NATO Commander came to Pakistan and when he saw the tank in action and looked inside he said where did you the the technology from All 10 rounds hit their Target smack on. On the other hand there tank Abrams missed all 6 targets in Zia's time.

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## Muradk

xeric said:


> You are correct!
> 
> And we all know that milities are NO-PROFIT Organizations and just spend money, dont generate them to be paid as bonus.
> 
> But let me assure you had we in the military started using the public money as per our requirements, legitimate ofourse, our country would gave gone bankrupt 25 years ago, you cant even imagine how much pain is taken to save a liter of diesel and how much check and balance is exercised and effort is put in to make a decision to spend a Rs 1 from the public fund i.e. the equipment-guns ammo etc that has been bought from this fund by others and provided to the Army.
> 
> Yes you are right but if you see in 1960 we GDP's got RS 1100 as a Fl/off and a Lt in Army was getting Rs 352/- We could buy 4 Tola's of Gold and still couldn't finish the money we had. That is why if you see we old timers in PAF have more money , better looking houses , better cars, Plus Arab wars and establishing ADAF we used to get
> RS 55,000/- a month in 1974 that was a hell of lot of money. Compare it with Army only Generals have the standards of living which could measure a bit with PAF.

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## EyelessInGaza

sonicboom said:


> Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCOs/JCOs. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOCs/JCOs with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?
> 
> Any problem with that?



As an outsider who knows next to nothing about Pakistani society and even less about the PA, I would still disagree with this.

Perhaps JCOs and NCOs should be given more housing. But it is my contention that they cannot have the same perks as officers.

Look at the private sector. Do CEOs get the same perks as line staffers, for example example salesmen? Even though in a company salesmen outnumber CEOs by many hundreds/ thousands to one?

Do vice presidents get the same perks as mailmen? Do managers get the same perks as secretarys?

Nossir.

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## Xeric

Muradk said:


> Yes you are right but if you see in 1960 we GDP's got RS 1100 as a Fl/off and a Lt in Army was getting Rs 352/- We could buy 4 Tola's of Gold and still couldn't finish the money we had. That is why if you see we old timers in PAF have more money , better looking houses , better cars, Plus Arab wars and establishing ADAF we used to get
> *RS 55,000/- a month in 1974 *that was a hell of lot of money. Compare it with Army only Generals have the standards of living which could measure a bit with PAF.





Darn why didnt i join the PAF!!

Sir, on a serious note, are you really serious?
If yes, why the heck they are behind the Army's butt, i think PAF forms the best candidate for this worthless bashing


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## Muradk

xeric said:


> Another argument which i dont feel like answering but then i think that if i am not tell you who would?
> 
> But anywaz; so you want to suggest in your argument that as the President of Pakistan is also given a Palace to live the same should also be given to his driver. You want to suggest that a DAE (Diploma of Associate Engineer) and a BE (Bachelor of Engineering) should be given the same pay rate and the same privileges, you want to suggest that a teacher who is holding a Masters Degree and a PhD should be given the same appointment/designation and not to mention that same pay and pension. Ok point noted, would submit in the next Corp commanders conference!
> 
> Tell any one you know who has a PHD and wants 5 laks per month to get intouch with Wasim Hasmi in education dept , His job is to find PHDs all over the world and offer than to come to Pakistan and teach, It was Mushi who started it. Today almost all of the Teachers in Lums and quaid University in Islamabad are all non pakistanis and PHDs.


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## sonicboom

*Mr xeric*

Laughing out loudly!

First, I must commend you for being an *officer and a gentleman *in your today&#8217;s responses. Was it too hard to do so? I hope not! Let&#8217;s keep that way. We are not here to fight, or win and lose, but to have good time and at the same time enjoy an intellectual discussion. 

I knew it for sure that you would respond back, in spite of being told not to do so by x_man and Agnostic, as it was not your style to stay on the sideline and get beat up. 

I usually don&#8217;t read this forum while in office but today I made an extra effort to check it several times to see if you had responded back or not. And guess what, I was right and there you were. *I rolled on the floor laughing.* My stomach is still hurting with that big laugh and if I got sick, I would expect you to reserve a room for me in one of the CMH&#8217;s. 

Oh while on the topic of reservation, I just remembered that you had asked x_man to reserve a seat on one of the C-130&#8217;s. But let me tell you that x_man did not tell you the truth as those seats had already been booked for the next several years by the bagum sahibas (wives of officers) of Chaklala Air Base as they often hop on those planes to do their shopping spree in Karachi. I would suggest that you may want to try your luck on one of the airlines operated by the Fuji foundation. 

Wasii aik baat kehon agar app bura na maano&#8230; app sub MP&#8217;s ku bohat ghussa atta hai aur aik dum larnay marnay ku tayer hu jata hu, assa lugta hai sometimes ka app sub ka ghussa naak pa rekha hua hai, kya app logon ku pata hai ka ghussa naak pa rekhnay sa naak motti hu jatti hai? 

Now getting back to the issue: you have responded back on so many of my responses that I won&#8217;t be able to respond back on each of them and it may take me some time to cover many other issues raised by you and may be in parts as not only I am very busy preparing for a conference where I have to present on two different topics but also writing is not my strong point as is your's. You are always looking for an opportunity to blast a note and a detailed one which I can't do. 

But before I restate my concern, let me say that I don&#8217;t have any problem with the compensation, housing and all the perks offered to Army officers. And that has never been an issue with me as understood by some of the responding members. People do not have any problem with the military officers executing their stipulated duties in a dignified manner. It is the military&#8217;s nefarious top layer the people are getting increasingly allergic to.

My only concerns are as follows (and are the same from people of Pakistan as shown in media and in the national assembly):

*1. The involvement of the army officers in real estate business such as defense housing societies from lieutenants to all the way up to corps commanders.

2. The double standard set by the GHQ, controlled by officers, when it comes to offering plots to army Officers and NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s.*

Let&#8217;s not bring the education and corporations in discussion. Army officers are well compensated as compared to NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s, so that takes care of the education. As far as Corporations are concerned, there is no comparison. The corporations are private entities and can do whatever they want but army is not. The army is being paid by the national budgetary.

Before I ask you few questions, please once again read the following from one of my earlier posts:

&#8220;During question hour in the parliament it has transpired that military officers get one after 15 years of service, a second one after 25, a third one after 28 years and a fourth one after 33 years of service each worth more than 15 million rupees in the open market.&#8221;

Now you answer the following simple questions. 

*1. In your honest opinion how many plots are needed to quench the housing thirst of an army officer? Is it one or two or three or four or how many?

2. And do you know how many of the original allottees still live in their plots and how many have made millions by selling their plots to civilians and why? 

3. Every year 25000 NOC&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s are retired from army and do you know how many have been allotted plots? If it&#8217;s not the policy, as you sated before, then who made the policy and why?

4. Why the serving corps commanders are needed to execute the executive functionaries of the defense housing societies while drawing salaries from the public exchequer? Is that what they expect to do in case of war?*

To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But why there is a need for four? Is one plot not enough to fulfill the housing needs of an army officer? Is this not the extreme type of greed? Would it be wrong to say that these housing schemes are denying the right of thousands of jawans, who remain on the frontline laying down their lives in the defense of the motherland?

*To be continued in part B later&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;*


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## sonicboom

EyelessInGaza said:


> As an outsider who knows next to nothing about Pakistani society and even less about the PA, I would still disagree with this.
> 
> Perhaps JCOs and NCOs should be given more housing. But it is my contention that they cannot have the same perks as officers.
> 
> Look at the private sector. Do CEOs get the same perks as line staffers, for example example salesmen? Even though in a company salesmen outnumber CEOs by many hundreds/ thousands to one?
> 
> Do vice presidents get the same perks as mailmen? Do managers get the same perks as secretarys?
> 
> Nossir.



Just tell me how many Indian Army Officers are involved in real estate business and housing societies and how many plots are allotted to each of them?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Sonicboom,

Before we start over your current series of posts, Xeric has already explained the situation over how officers save and contribute towards the plots they get in a previous post.

Please read that response and offer your opinions on it before we proceed further. 



> The double standard set by the GHQ, controlled by officers, when it comes to offering plots to army Officers and NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s.


I think this has been answered very well, and so far the majority opinion supports the contention that complete equality in pay and compensation, regardless of rank/position/qualifications, is just not tenable nor practical.

It is not a valid argument to continue.

What would be a valid argument is to ask whether the Army is looking at expanding benefits for the jawaan's, so that they can live a decent life and their children have an equal chance at education and success, and not whether the Army can make millionaires out of them.

Please take note on this point and adjust your queries accordingly.

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## EyelessInGaza

sonicboom said:


> Just tell me how many Indian Army Officers are involved in real estate business and housing societies and how many plots are allotted to each of them?



Caveat: My knowledge of housing for Indian army officers is as outdated as the early 1990s, when my father retired as a Major General. 

Civilian housing for Indian army officers is provided by the government through a housing scheme. There is not other mechanism by which IA officers can get involved in real estate.

This is a personal story - which proves nothing - but I offer it in lieu of any other information. Based on winning an army housing lottery(for location), my father paid (IIRC) Rs 3 lakh for a 1000 sq feet flat. It took almost all his savings, plus some of his pension.

The flat is located in a Delhi location that is prominent because of its - location. It isn't all that great in terms of construction. However, the housing society has perceived 'value' in the eyes of others because it is an 'army scheme' and the residents are mostly retired army personnel. 
The flats are built on a no profit no loss basis. They are quite cheap as compared to market values; for example in 1990 the flat would have cost my father (guessing) Rs 10 lakh (he paid ~ Rs 3 lakh). Today it is valued at around Rs 60-70 lakh.

I would venture that 95&#37; of the army residents (if not a 100%) are retired.

IIRC, you can only apply for one flat through your entire career. 

JCOs and NCOs are also eligible to apply; however they typically apply in another category under the same scheme, but for flats which (presumably) are not as 'classy' or expensive as army officers flats.

So, while the civilian housing offered to IA officers does not seem to be as generous as their PA counterparts, it certainly is above and beyond that given to IA JCOs and NCOs. Also, the houses are built at a considerable discount to market prices.

Someone with more recent experience of the IA may be able to give more detail.

Ok, it's late night here. Gotta go; will answer any questions (if anyone has any) tomorrow.

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## EyelessInGaza

Duplicate.


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## sonicboom

> Before we start over your current series of posts, Xeric has already explained the situation over how officers save and contribute towards the plots they get in a previous post.



Agnostic: 

And that's not the response to my questions. I care less how officers save and buy plots. That's their personal matter. If they can do that, that's great.

I am only concerned alloting them up to 4 plots as stated in the parliament. Did you care to read that in my post? I would suggest that you go back and reat it again. Let's not beat about the bushes. You or any one can answer the following simple questions that I had asked in my earlier post and I will rest my case.

Please be brief and to the point.

1. Why an army officer has the need to be allotted up to 4 plots in housing societies and city centers? Is one plot not enough to quench his housing thirst?

2. If the plots were allotted to them for thier hosuing needs, then why did they sell them for millions of rupees to civilians? 

3. Why the serving corps commanders are needed to execute the executive functionaries of the defense housing societies while drawing salaries from the public exchequer? Is that what they expect to do in case of war?




> I think this has been answered very well, and so far the majority opinion supports the contention that complete equality in pay and compensation, regardless of rank/position/qualifications, is just not tenable nor practical.
> 
> It is not a valid argument to continue.



That's not the issue here and I had explained my position very clearly in my earlier post. If you really want to talk about on institutional level then following are the points for you to ponder from Nighat Yasmeen's post.

(i) How do you explain that a professor holding a Doctorate -- who started teaching at a public university 35 years back, before you joined the army -- is not entitled to a single residential plot whereas the property you have amassed-- squarely due to your military service -- is worth hundreds of millions rupees?

(ii) How come a brigadier in the army has more perks and privileges than the Chief Justice of Pakistan (his tamely churning out of order-made indemnifying verdicts notwithstanding). 

(iii) Why a senior surgeon serving in a government hospital doesn&#8217;t get a fraction of monetary rewards as compared to what a GOC grabs without doing anything productive at all?

(iv) What does a police officer get from the state, despite risking his life, putting up with abuses and curses of the public on daily basis (and quite often flouting the law at the behest of the junta), in relation to good-for-nothing military officers? 

(v) Where in the world, a FA or at the most BA passed supervisor/foreman in a security firm is multi-millionaire, by default, on his retirement, entirely because of his job?

(vi) Which government service, irrespective of tenure, academic qualifications and/or assignments, in the entire region of South Asia, results in comparable amount of financial gains than that of military career in Pakistan? What extraordinary, the military of Pakistan accomplishes to deserve the amazing remunerations?


More points to ponder from Irfan Hussein:

1. It can be argued that those serving in the armed forces should receive greater rewards since they risk their lives in defending the country. Perhaps one should just look at the facts: we have not fought a formal war for 33 years and yet we continue to support five soldiers versus only two policemen per 1,000 citizens. 

2. As far as laying down one`s life is concerned, the total number of men and officers killed in all three previous wars put together is less than the number of policemen killed in Karachi alone over the last 10 years. 

3. The problem is also not merely of officers grabbing plots of land; the official system of salaries and rewards is intrinsically corrupt. The inspector-general of the Punjab police commanding more men than three corps put together gets a monthly uniform allowance of Rs250, whilst an army second lieutenant is paid Rs1,250 per month as kit allowance (in addition to ``disturbance pay`` for being married, a batman allowance, etc.) 

4. To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But is the building of multi-billion integrated luxury homes with golf course townships in a posh locality in Lahore or the multi-billion dollar development of Karachi beach in association with foreign partnership also a legitimate welfare activity that should be undertaken by the military? 

And lastly, it's not just me, article after article has been written on this issue in print media by both civilians and retired army officers.

*Note: No need to get itchy, this is my last post on this particular issue so feel relax.*

Regards


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## Muradk

xeric said:


> Darn why didnt i join the PAF!!
> 
> If yes, why heck they are behind the Army's butt, i think PAF forms the best candidate for this worthless bashing



Army is to big and 99% projects are theirs. PAF has been a powerful force but never had the lust of a coup which if needed a COAS can take over 2 min faster than Mushi did.
Yes PAF still has and gets powerful posts but Army puts there person first than PAF and last is PN.


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## pakistanMYheart

Muradk said:


> Army is to big and 99&#37; projects are theirs. PAF has been a powerful force but never had the lust of a coup which if needed a COAS can take over 2 min faster than Mushi did.
> Yes PAF still has and gets powerful posts but Army puts there person first than PAF and last is PN.



PAF is not fit for staging a coup. It does not have power on the ground, which is essential for taking over the government. Imagine a fighter aircraft knocking at the door of presidents' house, and telling him to step down from his post? 

Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself. Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through. PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.

** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks  **

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## sonicboom

*Eyelessingaza*



> Based on winning an army housing lottery(for location), my father paid (IIRC) Rs 3 lakh for a 1000 sq feet flat. It took almost all his savings, plus some of his pension.



WOW, so your dad had to participate in lottery and pay for the plot. But that's not the case for Pakistan army officers. They get allotted up to 4 plots depending on the length of the service as I indicated in my previous post for pennies or nothing. I am all in favor of one plot per officer for their housing needs but for 4, heck no. 

Read the following two quotes and then you be the judge:

IN answer to a Question in the Senate, the federal government has revealed that 485 residential plots in various cities of all four provinces were allotted to Army officers between October 1999 and July 2003. Though the plots were allotted to officers of all ranks from full general down to lieutenant, no less than 103 plots of 800 sq yds (plus or minus) were allotted to 45 general officers (major-generals and above). Of these plots, 46 were allotted in Karachi, 36 in Lahore. These plots were not allotted at a subsidy; they were given away almost free. Technically leased, the terms were token: Rs 5 per sq yd premium, with an annual lease of Rs 0.50 per sq yd. *This works out to Rs 4000 for a plot just over one and a half kanals, with an annual rent of Rs 80.* Even in a depressed real estate market, the worth would be at least Rs 6 million. (Note: this news is several years old)

Just last year when as many as 200 old settlements were being bulldozed in Karachi in the Lyari Expressway scheme, 248 acres of prime land on the sea front were given to the Defense Housing Authority *at the rate of Rs20 per square yard. The value of this land had been evaluated at Rs. 25,000 per square yard for commercial use and Rs. 15,000 per square yard for residential purposes.*

I bet that can't happen in India.



> I would venture that 95&#37; of the army residents (if not a 100%) are retired.



But that's not the case here in Pakistan. More than 95% of the residents in defense housing societies are civilians. This tells me that it's not the housing need for army officers but the greed for money. Real estate is a big business for army officers and hence the resentment from the people. They ruled over Pakistan more than 30 years and did whatever they want. No wonder why my country is in such a mess.




> IIRC, you can only apply for one flat through your entire career.



WOW, no comments!




> JCOs and NCOs are also eligible to apply; however they typically apply in another category under the same scheme, but for flats which (presumably) are not as 'classy' or expensive as army officers flats.



I wish we can do the same for NCO's?JOC's of Pakistan Army.


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## Patriot

pakistanMYheart said:


> PAF is not fit for staging a coup. It does not have power on the ground, which is essential for taking over the government. Imagine a fighter aircraft knocking at the door of presidents' house, and telling him to step down from his post?
> 
> Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself. Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through. PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.
> 
> ** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks  **


Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.


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## pakistanMYheart

Patriot said:


> Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.



Some idiot you are. Your reply is not at all related to my comments. Use some of your intelligence (if you have it), and reply me sensibly. 

When did I say Air Marshals or Generals are fools?
When did I say they are not fit for their job?
When did I say that all world Armies do not have generals?

I was exactly right in saying that:

** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks  **


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## sonicboom

Patriot said:


> Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.



No need to get rude. Please read his post once again carefully. He said:



> Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through.



Is that not true? 

Read the following and tell me why we need generals in all part of the civil society even in education. Don't we have qualified people in those departments?

Sources told Dawn that army officers were being called back from 23 civil departments. The highest number of 61 army officers being called back is presently working in the National Accountability Bureau (NAB) which was set up by Gen (retd) Pervez Musharraf soon after taking over the power on October 12, 1999. Later, the NAB became a controversial organisation, and many opposition parties openly criticised its performance and termed it a tool in the hands of the military rulers to gain political advantage.

Similarly, the sources said, 21 army officers working in the National Database Registration Authority (Nadra) and 18 in the Water and Power Development Authority (Wapda) had also been asked to report back to the GHQ.

Other departments from where army officers are being called back include the National Highways Authority, Azad Jammu and Kashmir Accountability Bureau, Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, National Crisis Management Cell, Intelligence Bureau (IB), National Reconstruction Bureau (NRB), education departments, provincial governments, National Institute of Science, Technology and Engineering (NISTE), Customs Intelligence, Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Pakistan Steel Mills, Establishment Division and AJK PM Secretariat.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

sonicboom said:


> Agnostic:
> 
> And that's not the response to my questions. I care less how officers save and buy plots. That's their personal matter. If they can do that, that's great.
> 
> I am only concerned alloting them up to 4 plots as stated in the parliament. Did you care to read that in my post? I would suggest that you go back and reat it again. Let's not beat about the bushes. You or any one can answer the following simple questions that I had asked in my earlier post and I will rest my case.


Whats wrong with four plots, depending upon how long ones career in the Army is and the rank one achieves? On its own it is not enough to merit criticism IMO, since it is part of the compensation package the Army has for its officers.

If parliament thinks the compensation is too much, it should try and adjust the rules accordingly. 


> 1. Why an army officer has the need to be allotted up to 4 plots in housing societies and city centers? Is one plot not enough to quench his housing thirst?


I have asked you to be civil, and you insist on using inflammatory language. This WILL be your last warning. Don't make derogatory generalizations such as 'housing thirst, thirst for plots etc.' The rest of us are carrying on this discussion with civility, the least you can do is reciprocate.

The response to the question itself is the same as my first paragraph in this post.


> 2. If the plots were allotted to them for thier hosuing needs, then why did they sell them for millions of rupees to civilians?


They are at the end of the day 'compensation', whether used for their own housing or put up for sale. It is the prerogative of the recipients to do as they wish with their property.



> 3. Why the serving corps commanders are needed to execute the executive functionaries of the defense housing societies while drawing salaries from the public exchequer? Is that what they expect to do in case of war?


Can't comment on this since I do not know what tangible services the Corp's commanders render as 'executive functionaries of the defense housing societies'. You would have to provide some more information in terms of whether their position is largely ceremonial in this respect, or whether it poses a significant distraction from their military duties and responsibilities as Corp Commanders.



> That's not the issue here and I had explained my position very clearly in my earlier post. If you really want to talk about on institutional level then following are the points for you to ponder from Nighat Yasmeen's post.
> 
> (i) How do you explain that a professor holding a Doctorate -- who started teaching at a public university 35 years back, before you joined the army -- is not entitled to a single residential plot whereas the property you have amassed-- squarely due to your military service -- is worth hundreds of millions rupees?
> 
> (ii) How come a brigadier in the army has more perks and privileges than the Chief Justice of Pakistan (his tamely churning out of order-made indemnifying verdicts notwithstanding).
> 
> (iii) Why a senior surgeon serving in a government hospital doesnt get a fraction of monetary rewards as compared to what a GOC grabs without doing anything productive at all?
> 
> (iv) What does a police officer get from the state, despite risking his life, putting up with abuses and curses of the public on daily basis (and quite often flouting the law at the behest of the junta), in relation to good-for-nothing military officers?
> 
> (v) Where in the world, a FA or at the most BA passed supervisor/foreman in a security firm is multi-millionaire, by default, on his retirement, entirely because of his job?
> 
> (vi) Which government service, irrespective of tenure, academic qualifications and/or assignments, in the entire region of South Asia, results in comparable amount of financial gains than that of military career in Pakistan? What extraordinary, the military of Pakistan accomplishes to deserve the amazing remunerations?


That is an issue that has also been explored - as I said before, a PhD in engineering will likely not earn anywhere close to what a Physician does.

Different fields, different organizations and different levels of remuneration. Perhaps one should ask the remaining institutions why they are not able to utilize their resources more effectively to offer better compensation to their top talent.

In addition, I do not agree that all of those who do make it to the highest level are equivalent to FA/BA pass, since military officers continue studies and take course both at home and abroad at defence colleges and institutions, along with continued education in the form of training with other forces and in other institutions.

More points to ponder from Irfan Hussein:


> 1. It can be argued that those serving in the armed forces should receive greater rewards since they risk their lives in defending the country. Perhaps one should just look at the facts: we have not fought a formal war for 33 years and yet we continue to support five soldiers versus only two policemen per 1,000 citizens.


The fact that we have not fought a formal war IMO is also due to the fact that we have a strong conventional and unconventional deterrent, and not because there is a lack of a threat. And even that conventional deterrent is accomplished at a fraction of the cost the opposing side expends. IH's logic here is confounding.

That said, while the external threat justifies the military, there is no question that there needs to be more investment in law enforcement along with reforms and accountability to make it more efficient. But that too is an issue that our civilian government has to take up, and at the moment is at least making the right noises about.


> 2. As far as laying down one`s life is concerned, the total number of men and officers killed in all three previous wars put together is less than the number of policemen killed in Karachi alone over the last 10 years.


A tragedy, but again, this is not a zero sum game and cannot be a zero sum game - the external threat (and now the internal one as well) is real, as is the need for more investment in local law enforcement.


> 3. The problem is also not merely of officers grabbing plots of land; the official system of salaries and rewards is intrinsically corrupt. The inspector-general of the Punjab police commanding more men than three corps put together gets a monthly uniform allowance of Rs250, whilst an army second lieutenant is paid Rs1,250 per month as kit allowance (in addition to ``disturbance pay`` for being married, a batman allowance, etc.)


Again, please keep in mind my warning about remaining civil in this discussion and refraining from inflammatory language about 'officers grabbing plots' and whatnot.

I do see the higher 'kit allowance' of a soldier as being reasonable, given that military 'kit' is somewhat more expansive than that of a police officer. Overall I think both are somewhat low, and should be increased. Again, the failure of the government to reform the police and provide the proper funding for it is not the fault of the Army. The current civilian government says that it understands the need to build up local law enforcement, and hopefully it shall do what it says and bring the quality of LEA up to that of the Military.



> 4. To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But is the building of multi-billion integrated luxury homes with golf course townships in a posh locality in Lahore or the multi-billion dollar development of Karachi beach in association with foreign partnership also a legitimate welfare activity that should be undertaken by the military?


As long as it is legal, why not? 



> And lastly, it's not just me, article after article has been written on this issue in print media by both civilians and retired army officers.


yes, but they mostly seem rants, such as IH's first article you quoted, with some making sound arguments.



> *Note: No need to get itchy, this is my last post on this particular issue so feel relax.*
> 
> Regards


So long as you heed the warnings about remaining civil and not flaming, I have no issues. There are certain lines of argument that have been shown to be a non-issue, so those should be dropped.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Patriot said:


> Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.


*
Refrain from the personal attacks please. Deliberately ignoring moderator warnings (made repeatedly on this thread) will earn you a ban.*



> Some idiot you are.


*
That also goes for those responding to flames. Report the post and ignore it. Responding in kind will get you banned as well.*


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

pakistanMYheart said:


> PAF is not fit for staging a coup. It does not have power on the ground, which is essential for taking over the government. Imagine a fighter aircraft knocking at the door of presidents' house, and telling him to step down from his post?
> 
> Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself. Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through. PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.



The Army under Kiyani has withdrawn most serving Army officials back from civilian departments. It is a practice that should continue IMO. 

But as to your original point, PAF pilots are trained in handling weapons, and they do have an SSW, so they wouldn't need a 'Jet' knowing on the door of the PM or presidency.

However, while the Army can stage a coup without PAF assistance, the PAF cannot do so without PA assistance or acquiescence. At the least the PAF would need the PA to act as a silent bystander while it staged a coup, and accept whatever government emerged at the end. 


> ** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks  **


While the rest have adjusted their posts to be largely civil, you and SB have continued with the taunts, flames and derogatory comments. As I said to SB, this will be the last warning, because this is just inane behavior.


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## pakistanMYheart

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *
> Refrain from the personal attacks please. Deliberately ignoring moderator warnings (made repeatedly on this thread) will earn you a ban.*
> 
> 
> *
> That also goes for those responding to flames. Report the post and ignore it. Responding in kind will get you banned as well.*



I never mean to write such posts. But I just cant remain silent when somebody else attacks me. But I will comply with your warning in future, and report such posts instead of replying them.


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## pakistanMYheart

Patriot said:


> Please accept my apology Pakistanmyheart.I misunderstood your post but i'd disagree with you regarding PAF.Nearly all Air Forces in the world are dominated by Pilots and trust me they are not power lusty like some Army Generals (Again you are Generalizing by saying ALL PAF PIlots and Army Generals are power lusty!)



It is a simple formula. The right man should get the right job, and obviously pilots are not experts of EVERYTHING that an Air Force does. So, this culture must end. It is the age of technology. It is the age of specialization. Not every one is a specialist on every thing. So, a specialist job should be handled by a specialist. I do not think it is that difficult to understand!

As far as power lusty are concerned, I dont want to get into the very long discussion, that we have already done on the "PAF Leadership" thread. Read the last post by @x_man, where he accepts that pilots do try to grab all important posts, and this is due to a culture prevailing in our country, where the powerful get to rule, without considering the fact that they are the right ones or not.


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## Muradk

Patriot said:


> Please accept my apology Pakistanmyheart.I misunderstood your post but i'd disagree with you regarding PAF.Nearly all Air Forces in the world are dominated by Pilots and trust me they are not power lusty like some Army Generals (Again you are Generalizing by saying ALL PAF PIlots and Army Generals are power lusty!)



Don't you dare apologise to him he is one of those members who have no respect instead of a good discussion he at the end says 

*** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks ***

listen kid I have had students like you, who never could understand, I never raised my voice nor did I suspend them Why, Knowing them I knew they will eventually end up infront of someone who is not be so forgiving and yes they lost there jobs because of the attitude and behavior. This is my last request as an elder you dont like me fine with me but don't disrespect me again. 
If you are waiting for abusive and rude remarks I can start with Stamore and keep going but there are a lot of people who respect me because I respect them and don't want them to see me like that. Try making a good name for your self just because MK told you that man you just shockup the whole forum keep it up but when you get banned he will not be able to save you.
*You Command respect not demand respect.*

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## x_man

I think we have amply discussed about the different posts of pilots in the other thread. From DCAS Admn to War Heroes, we almost touched each area. But making statements like this &#8230;


pakistanMYheart said:


> Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself.


 ....and this 



pakistanMYheart said:


> PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.



clearly indicates that you are not in a mood for healthy discussion but just inciting and provacating other members with the hate that you have towards pilots in particularly&#8230;.You have been constantly misleading the members and dissing any argument presented to you against your misinformation.....*MODs please note. 
*

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Give them enought rope---and they always 'hang' themselves by getting banned.

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## sonicboom

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Give them enought rope---and they always 'hang' themselves by getting banned.




Mastan sahib, app na ya mastain kub sa shruh ker dee hain? Abb app humara mazaq tu na urrain, By the way my neck size is 16 1/2, any idea for the rope siz? lol

And Sir xeric, is there any chance for me to get a thanks award from you? Please! Com'n buddy! let's have a cease fire and cooling off time before we start the 2nd round. Do you know that Islam allows narazgi for only 3 days and then you must surrender?


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## mlkoo

helo n hi to all!
well... i ve jst read wat all u wrote...sonic!...u might b right but i think that u r not aware of some facts or sume one has really misled and givn very wrong information to u.... u ve tried to make an earnest endeavour to give an impression dat pak officers r only enjoying perks n priveledges which dey dun even deserve... u even tried to draw a comparison between indian officers and pak officer's benefits....well lets start from the same point...here are som of teh details of wat a liutenant gets in indian army once he joins
1. free rations
2. furnished accomodation with allied facilities ..... free
3. free medical facilities including his siblings...not just parents
4. group housing scheme....*
5 soft loans for building houses
6. transport for childern to their schools
7. 2 months of fully paid leave very year
8. free travel by rajdhani/ any express train wid family
9. basic pay of rs 10500---liutenant
10. dearness allowance---57% of basic pay
11. city compensatory allowance... if not posted in a big city
12. outfit allowance....6000......revised regularly
13. field area allowance.... if in field.....upto 3500
14. if posted to glacier.....7000
15. qualification grant.....more courses u qualify....3000-10000

well.... janab.... i think... u must hav been able to draw a clear picture of the lifestyle an indian officer experiences and i hope ....coz u were so much vocal on the perks being enjoyed by pak officers... i need not to provide u about wat our officers get....i assume dat u must b aware of dat......there is only one field in above stated facts which is also appllicable to pak officers and dat is marked with a "*"....scroll up please......
now i know u ll comment on a number of entries above.....so let me clarify those my self for ur ease.....
1. no free rations for officers of army
2. only acomodation......with just one bad and one chair with allied facilities but NOTHING FREE....rest furnishing is on officr n for allied facilities...he pays bills
3. free medical facilities but NOT AT ALL FOR SIBLINGS..... 
4. yes ... group housing scheme is same
5. loans???......huh..... wat to talk about soft loan policy.........even if arranging from commercial banks....permission is mandatory from commander
6. sir... no concept of transport for childern here!
7. 1 month of leave is authorized once in a year...... ask any of officers u know..... h many times they have spent a complete month wid dere family .... ask dere families rather
8. 50% discount on train....dat too just for ur wife only.....NOTHING FREE sir!
9. basic pay---8500---liutenant
10.dearness allownce???....ask any pak officer...he wont have even heard of it ...sir!
11. city compensatory allowance....same goes for it.....visit anyone in "mailsi"...southern punjab...ask him wat is it.......or declare mailsi a mega city...sir!
12. outfit allowance...... for Ncos.....in pma only....those who are instructor for drill...no such allowance for officers.....and even den ever yourself compare teh outfit maintained by a **** officer with another officer of any other army....... u ll not feel dat our officers do not get an allowance for it....which others do get
13. field.....go to "chor"...ask if he is getting even 1 extra peny for it......be mind ful v r talking of field...not of hard area...coz i know... u ll try to misguide people by mixing a field area with hard area....field area is when ever anyon is out of cant and in an open area(field) for practical exercise....... i hope i need not to explain a hard area now... i expext all the readers to be dat much wise atleast....
14. either they go to glacier or in battls in wana or swat..... any place... at maximum they get a sum of rs 3000...either in form of hard area allowance or in form of internal security allowance...respectively....wid due respect sir!
15. qualification grant????..... well ... pakistan has got the biggest number of oficers who take sword from royal academy of sandhurst england..... even after doing and getting 1st position in foreign staff courses in grmany, france, jordan and many more...no one gets and not even expexts to be given any such allowance....sir!

now..... to sum up...some more facts...... one can easily make up as who is gtting more..... from these figures....but at same time dun 4get n b mindful dat indian our currency has different wieghtage as compared to indian.... a car which indian officer can buy in rs 290000......(maruti)..... for buying same **** officer has to pay rs 410000.....means if u take all these facts meentioned above in dollars.... u ll find that difference wud further double......
now to add to ur hapines "sonic"...and for guidance of all readers.... please refer to "6th CPC" announced by indian govt for indian army officers whereby... 
"very indian officer gets rs 12000 per child for his tution (education) and further 6000 if he wants tto put him in some hostel....this facility can b availed by all officers for 2 children only"
plz mr sonic....can u kindly show me a mtch to it in our army....sir......plz

and to end up..... the fact which sonic was trying to exploit to misguide many of readers...... 4 plots.......ist of all let me telll u that 4 plots can b availed by only officers who rise up to the rank of brig.......and for ur kind information....80 % of oficrs retire as majors......so how many plots can rest 20 % consume ....even if they eat na..... even then not as much as u were trying to portray......
now some facts to answer u.
1. it is never like dis that plots r givn 4 free or for rs 4000 per plot...... for ur kind information..... latest plot...ma father got....n it was of 8 marla....he had to pay rs 9 lac..... then it was alloted...otherwise allotment was to be cancelled
2. houses which are given...... mr...... officers who subsribe to this scheme only they get it..... n then they have to pay a dwnpayment ...which is 45000 now a days.....n subsequently....intallments of rs 1500 for ist 8 years, 2500 for next 5 years, 3500 for next 5, and 5000 for last 5 years....
3. if ur service is less then 23 years ... u r not eligible.....sir
4. at nd of service...once house is alloted... again a lumpsum payment is to b paid to get possession of house.
5. n one important information....do not just add up all these figures and reply me back and say that it forms an amount which is less then teh amount of hpuse.....answer my question...... wat army does with teh downpayment and installments????..... is it not used in projects to generate economic activity..... can u undermine teh utility these accumulated funds offer to army n this country... where is it invested... is it not for the meting the need of this giant army.....just tell me.... what will happen if u put same downpayment in a fixed account for 23 years and keep on adding to a fixed savings account for 23 years ..every month...wat ll be the profit u ll earn on it.....now understood
... even now if u calculate like a misery n say... even then it does not make up teh amount for house... so mr....only dat little margin which is left... is a benefit which a poor army officer is given after the most dedicated, most threatened, most devoted and 24 hours 7 days job for his complete life....... i wud appreciate if every tom dick n harry has those guts to sacrifice his comfort to the level which these officers always do.......... u do not deserve to talk about these people...who leave there loved ones behind and walk down those valleys from where they dun ve teh surety to return.... u feel lik killing urself if u fail to be wid ur wife at the birth of ur child.....mr.....my brother died... my father couldnt see his face.... he was in kargil....... n i m not portraying it as a grief..... i m proud of ma dad...... n this is nothing.....sacrfices worth mentioning cant be mentioned here...which everyone cant offer...... the dirty seed u tried to sow between army n common man... i tried it shud not nourish ...n th 2nd seed u tried to sow between nco n jco n officers....i ll address it next time... coz for today its more den enough....tc...MAY ALLAH show u th right path!


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## mlkoo

helo n hi to all!
well... i ve jst read wat all u wrote...sonic!...u might b right but i think that u r not aware of some facts or sume one has really misled and givn very wrong information to u.... u ve tried to make an earnest endeavour to give an impression dat pak officers r only enjoying perks n priveledges which dey dun even deserve... u even tried to draw a comparison between indian officers and pak officer's benefits....well lets start from the same point...here are som of teh details of wat a liutenant gets in indian army once he joins
1. free rations
2. furnished accomodation with allied facilities ..... free
3. free medical facilities including his siblings...not just parents
4. group housing scheme....*
5 soft loans for building houses
6. transport for childern to their schools
7. 2 months of fully paid leave very year
8. free travel by rajdhani/ any express train wid family
9. basic pay of rs 10500---liutenant
10. dearness allowance---57&#37; of basic pay
11. city compensatory allowance... if not posted in a big city
12. outfit allowance....6000......revised regularly
13. field area allowance.... if in field.....upto 3500
14. if posted to glacier.....7000
15. qualification grant.....more courses u qualify....3000-10000

well.... janab.... i think... u must hav been able to draw a clear picture of the lifestyle an indian officer experiences and i hope ....coz u were so much vocal on the perks being enjoyed by pak officers... i need not to provide u about wat our officers get....i assume dat u must b aware of dat......there is only one field in above stated facts which is also appllicable to pak officers and dat is marked with a "*"....scroll up please......
now i know u ll comment on a number of entries above.....so let me clarify those my self for ur ease.....
1. no free rations for officers of army
2. only acomodation......with just one bad and one chair with allied facilities but NOTHING FREE....rest furnishing is on officr n for allied facilities...he pays bills
3. free medical facilities but NOT AT ALL FOR SIBLINGS..... 
4. yes ... group housing scheme is same
5. loans???......huh..... wat to talk about soft loan policy.........even if arranging from commercial banks....permission is mandatory from commander
6. sir... no concept of transport for childern here!
7. 1 month of leave is authorized once in a year...... ask any of officers u know..... h many times they have spent a complete month wid dere family .... ask dere families rather
8. 50% discount on train....dat too just for ur wife only.....NOTHING FREE sir!
9. basic pay---8500---liutenant
10.dearness allownce???....ask any pak officer...he wont have even heard of it ...sir!
11. city compensatory allowance....same goes for it.....visit anyone in "mailsi"...southern punjab...ask him wat is it.......or declare mailsi a mega city...sir!
12. outfit allowance...... for Ncos.....in pma only....those who are instructor for drill...no such allowance for officers.....and even den ever yourself compare teh outfit maintained by a **** officer with another officer of any other army....... u ll not feel dat our officers do not get an allowance for it....which others do get
13. field.....go to "chor"...ask if he is getting even 1 extra peny for it......be mind ful v r talking of field...not of hard area...coz i know... u ll try to misguide people by mixing a field area with hard area....field area is when ever anyon is out of cant and in an open area(field) for practical exercise....... i hope i need not to explain a hard area now... i expext all the readers to be dat much wise atleast....
14. either they go to glacier or in battls in wana or swat..... any place... at maximum they get a sum of rs 3000...either in form of hard area allowance or in form of internal security allowance...respectively....wid due respect sir!
15. qualification grant????..... well ... pakistan has got the biggest number of oficers who take sword from royal academy of sandhurst england..... even after doing and getting 1st position in foreign staff courses in grmany, france, jordan and many more...no one gets and not even expexts to be given any such allowance....sir!

now..... to sum up...some more facts...... one can easily make up as who is gtting more..... from these figures....but at same time dun 4get n b mindful dat indian our currency has different wieghtage as compared to indian.... a car which indian officer can buy in rs 290000......(maruti)..... for buying same **** officer has to pay rs 410000.....means if u take all these facts meentioned above in dollars.... u ll find that difference wud further double......
now to add to ur hapines "sonic"...and for guidance of all readers.... please refer to "6th CPC" announced by indian govt for indian army officers whereby... 
"very indian officer gets rs 12000 per child for his tution (education) and further 6000 if he wants tto put him in some hostel....this facility can b availed by all officers for 2 children only"
plz mr sonic....can u kindly show me a mtch to it in our army....sir......plz

and to end up..... the fact which sonic was trying to exploit to misguide many of readers...... 4 plots.......ist of all let me telll u that 4 plots can b availed by only officers who rise up to the rank of brig.......and for ur kind information....80 % of oficrs retire as majors......so how many plots can rest 20 % consume ....even if they eat na..... even then not as much as u were trying to portray......
now some facts to answer u.
1. it is never like dis that plots r givn 4 free or for rs 4000 per plot...... for ur kind information..... latest plot...ma father got....n it was of 8 marla....he had to pay rs 9 lac..... then it was alloted...otherwise allotment was to be cancelled
2. houses which are given...... mr...... officers who subsribe to this scheme only they get it..... n then they have to pay a dwnpayment ...which is 45000 now a days.....n subsequently....intallments of rs 1500 for ist 8 years, 2500 for next 5 years, 3500 for next 5, and 5000 for last 5 years....
3. if ur service is less then 23 years ... u r not eligible.....sir
4. at nd of service...once house is alloted... again a lumpsum payment is to b paid to get possession of house.
5. n one important information....do not just add up all these figures and reply me back and say that it forms an amount which is less then teh amount of hpuse.....answer my question...... wat army does with teh downpayment and installments????..... is it not used in projects to generate economic activity..... can u undermine teh utility these accumulated funds offer to army n this country... where is it invested... is it not for the meting the need of this giant army.....just tell me.... what will happen if u put same downpayment in a fixed account for 23 years and keep on adding to a fixed savings account for 23 years ..every month...wat ll be the profit u ll earn on it.....now understood
... even now if u calculate like a misery n say... even then it does not make up teh amount for house... so mr....only dat little margin which is left... is a benefit which a poor army officer is given after the most dedicated, most threatened, most devoted and 24 hours 7 days job for his complete life....... i wud appreciate if every tom dick n harry has those guts to sacrifice his comfort to the level which these officers always do.......... u do not deserve to talk about these people...who leave there loved ones behind and walk down those valleys from where they dun ve teh surety to return.... u feel lik killing urself if u fail to be wid ur wife at the birth of ur child.....mr.....my brother died... my father couldnt see his face.... he was in kargil....... n i m not portraying it as a grief..... i m proud of ma dad...... n this is nothing.....sacrfices worth mentioning cant be mentioned here...which everyone cant offer...... the dirty seed u tried to sow between army n common man... i tried it shud not nourish ...n th 2nd seed u tried to sow between nco n jco n officers....i ll address it next time... coz for today its more den enough....tc...MAY ALLAH show u th right path!

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## mlkoo

plz do read ma post... i replied wat"sonic" misled every body regarding perks n priveledges dat pak officers enjoy comparitevely to indian officers... plz read it just once... its a requst


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## TaimiKhan

mlkoo said:


> plz do read ma post... i replied wat"sonic" misled every body regarding perks n priveledges dat pak officers enjoy comparitevely to indian officers... plz read it just once... its a requst




Yes dear, read it and 101&#37; agreed also, spent 25 years of my life in the army background, and never seen the extra perks that people talk about. Yea generals may be, but normal officers, didn't saw any. Bro is a Lieutenant in the PA, sitting in a hard area, his total pay including all allowances comes to just 18,000/- and after deduction gets 15,500 or sometimes 16,000/-, and from this he has to give 5,000+ just for the mess bill & the other spending on extra official lunches & dinners or tea breaks are extra. So in the end what left can be calculated. Nowadays, the camouflage army uniform costs around Rs.2000 to 2500. 

Dad spent 29 years serving the armed forces, the salary which he was getting at his retirement age, i started to earn more then his retirement time salary in just 2 years time after getting my job. 

Salary after 29 years service = My salary after 2 years. 

I just don't understand from where & how people get this idea that all of the army officers are enjoying high perks & high salaries.

The perks they are getting, they deserve it after what kind of life they spend. For civilians its very easy to see, as they look from the outside, but whts inside they don't see. 

Generals apart.

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## Xeric

mlkoo said:


> plz do read ma post... i replied wat"sonic" misled every body regarding perks n priveledges dat pak officers enjoy comparitevely to indian officers... plz read it just once... its a requst


Thanks for the addition.


taimikhan said:


> Yes dear, read it and 101% agreed also, spent 25 years of my life in the army background, and never seen the extra perks that people talk about. Yea generals may be, but normal officers, didn't saw any. Bro is a Lieutenant in the PA, sitting in a hard area, his total pay including all allowances comes to just 18,000/- and after deduction gets 15,500 or sometimes 16,000/-, and from this he has to give 5,000+ just for the mess bill & the other spending on extra official lunches & dinners or tea breaks are extra. So in the end what left can be calculated. Nowadays, the camouflage army uniform costs around Rs.2000 to 2500.
> 
> Dad spent 29 years serving the armed forces, the salary which he was getting at his retirement age, i started to earn more then his retirement time salary in just 2 years time after getting my job.
> 
> Salary after 29 years service = My salary after 2 years.
> 
> I just don't understand from where & how people get this idea that all of the army officers are enjoying high perks & high salaries.
> 
> The perks they are getting, they deserve it after what kind of life they spend. For civilians its very easy to see, as they look from the outside, but whts inside they don't see.
> 
> Generals apart.



5000 as Mess Bill! Bro you must add another 2000 (minimum) keeping view the inflation rate.

i remember having nothing in my pocket when i paid my bills-legitimate ofcourse , but we were still happy and contended, wore guud cloths and lived like a human! Though you have to sacrifice many other loves to get the essentials, but you know it works well


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## TaimiKhan

xeric said:


> Thanks for the addition.
> 
> 
> 5000 as Mess Bill! Bro you must add another 2000 (minimum) keeping view the inflation rate.
> 
> i remember having nothing in my pocket when i paid my bills-legitimate ofcourse , but we were still happy and contended, wore guud cloths and lived like a human! Though you have to sacrifice many other loves to get the essentials, but you know it works well



Well he is sitting at a way up on a mountain post overlooking the indians, so his mess bill is down, once he goes to a normal place, then the real bills would start coming in.  

I ask him buy what ever u wanna buy now, once u come down then u will be sitting with an empty pocket. 

Yups agreed, no matter what the salary is, officers spend a good decent life either as a bachelor or even when they get a family.


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## Xeric

taimikhan said:


> Well he is sitting at a way up on a mountain post overlooking the indians, so his mess bill is down, once he goes to a normal place, then the real bills would start coming in.
> 
> I ask him buy what ever u wanna buy now, once u come down then u will be sitting with an empty pocket.
> 
> Yups agreed, no matter what the salary is, officers spend a good decent life either as a bachelor or even when they get a family.



You got it right bro.

i think you must read that post of mine where i said that i saved like 50k when i was sitting up somewhere.

Officers and men are mostly able to save alot when they are deployed but at the expense of their 'normal life'. Sitting without light, without the basic facilities, without eating something nice, without socializing etc etc.

And yes your advice ti him his also guud that he should save and buy whatever he has planned as this money that he would save is not going to last when he would come down!

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## Skywalker

mlkoo said:


> helo n hi to all!
> well... i ve jst read wat all u wrote...sonic!...u might b right but i think that u r not aware of some facts or sume one has really misled and givn very wrong information to u.... u ve tried to make an earnest endeavour to give an impression dat pak officers r only enjoying perks n priveledges which dey dun even deserve... u even tried to draw a comparison between indian officers and pak officer's benefits....well lets start from the same point...here are som of teh details of wat a liutenant gets in indian army once he joins
> 1. free rations
> 2. furnished accomodation with allied facilities ..... free
> 3. free medical facilities including his siblings...not just parents
> 4. group housing scheme....*
> 5 soft loans for building houses
> 6. transport for childern to their schools
> 7. 2 months of fully paid leave very year
> 8. free travel by rajdhani/ any express train wid family
> 9. basic pay of rs 10500---liutenant
> 10. dearness allowance---57% of basic pay
> 11. city compensatory allowance... if not posted in a big city
> 12. outfit allowance....6000......revised regularly
> 13. field area allowance.... if in field.....upto 3500
> 14. if posted to glacier.....7000
> 15. qualification grant.....more courses u qualify....3000-10000
> 
> well.... janab.... i think... u must hav been able to draw a clear picture of the lifestyle an indian officer experiences and i hope ....coz u were so much vocal on the perks being enjoyed by pak officers... i need not to provide u about wat our officers get....i assume dat u must b aware of dat......there is only one field in above stated facts which is also appllicable to pak officers and dat is marked with a "*"....scroll up please......
> now i know u ll comment on a number of entries above.....so let me clarify those my self for ur ease.....
> 1. no free rations for officers of army
> 2. only acomodation......with just one bad and one chair with allied facilities but NOTHING FREE....rest furnishing is on officr n for allied facilities...he pays bills
> 3. free medical facilities but NOT AT ALL FOR SIBLINGS.....
> 4. yes ... group housing scheme is same
> 5. loans???......huh..... wat to talk about soft loan policy.........even if arranging from commercial banks....permission is mandatory from commander
> 6. sir... no concept of transport for childern here!
> 7. 1 month of leave is authorized once in a year...... ask any of officers u know..... h many times they have spent a complete month wid dere family .... ask dere families rather
> 8. 50% discount on train....dat too just for ur wife only.....NOTHING FREE sir!
> 9. basic pay---8500---liutenant
> 10.dearness allownce???....ask any pak officer...he wont have even heard of it ...sir!
> 11. city compensatory allowance....same goes for it.....visit anyone in "mailsi"...southern punjab...ask him wat is it.......or declare mailsi a mega city...sir!
> 12. outfit allowance...... for Ncos.....in pma only....those who are instructor for drill...no such allowance for officers.....and even den ever yourself compare teh outfit maintained by a **** officer with another officer of any other army....... u ll not feel dat our officers do not get an allowance for it....which others do get
> 13. field.....go to "chor"...ask if he is getting even 1 extra peny for it......be mind ful v r talking of field...not of hard area...coz i know... u ll try to misguide people by mixing a field area with hard area....field area is when ever anyon is out of cant and in an open area(field) for practical exercise....... i hope i need not to explain a hard area now... i expext all the readers to be dat much wise atleast....
> 14. either they go to glacier or in battls in wana or swat..... any place... at maximum they get a sum of rs 3000...either in form of hard area allowance or in form of internal security allowance...respectively....wid due respect sir!
> 15. qualification grant????..... well ... pakistan has got the biggest number of oficers who take sword from royal academy of sandhurst england..... even after doing and getting 1st position in foreign staff courses in grmany, france, jordan and many more...no one gets and not even expexts to be given any such allowance....sir!
> 
> now..... to sum up...some more facts...... one can easily make up as who is gtting more..... from these figures....but at same time dun 4get n b mindful dat indian our currency has different wieghtage as compared to indian.... a car which indian officer can buy in rs 290000......(maruti)..... for buying same **** officer has to pay rs 410000.....means if u take all these facts meentioned above in dollars.... u ll find that difference wud further double......
> now to add to ur hapines "sonic"...and for guidance of all readers.... please refer to "6th CPC" announced by indian govt for indian army officers whereby...
> "very indian officer gets rs 12000 per child for his tution (education) and further 6000 if he wants tto put him in some hostel....this facility can b availed by all officers for 2 children only"
> plz mr sonic....can u kindly show me a mtch to it in our army....sir......plz
> 
> and to end up..... the fact which sonic was trying to exploit to misguide many of readers...... 4 plots.......ist of all let me telll u that 4 plots can b availed by only officers who rise up to the rank of brig.......and for ur kind information....80 % of oficrs retire as majors......so how many plots can rest 20 % consume ....even if they eat na..... even then not as much as u were trying to portray......
> now some facts to answer u.
> 1. it is never like dis that plots r givn 4 free or for rs 4000 per plot...... for ur kind information..... latest plot...ma father got....n it was of 8 marla....he had to pay rs 9 lac..... then it was alloted...otherwise allotment was to be cancelled
> 2. houses which are given...... mr...... officers who subsribe to this scheme only they get it..... n then they have to pay a dwnpayment ...which is 45000 now a days.....n subsequently....intallments of rs 1500 for ist 8 years, 2500 for next 5 years, 3500 for next 5, and 5000 for last 5 years....
> 3. if ur service is less then 23 years ... u r not eligible.....sir
> 4. at nd of service...once house is alloted... again a lumpsum payment is to b paid to get possession of house.
> 5. n one important information....do not just add up all these figures and reply me back and say that it forms an amount which is less then teh amount of hpuse.....answer my question...... wat army does with teh downpayment and installments????..... is it not used in projects to generate economic activity..... can u undermine teh utility these accumulated funds offer to army n this country... where is it invested... is it not for the meting the need of this giant army.....just tell me.... what will happen if u put same downpayment in a fixed account for 23 years and keep on adding to a fixed savings account for 23 years ..every month...wat ll be the profit u ll earn on it.....now understood
> ... even now if u calculate like a misery n say... even then it does not make up teh amount for house... so mr....only dat little margin which is left... is a benefit which a poor army officer is given after the most dedicated, most threatened, most devoted and 24 hours 7 days job for his complete life....... i wud appreciate if every tom dick n harry has those guts to sacrifice his comfort to the level which these officers always do.......... u do not deserve to talk about these people...who leave there loved ones behind and walk down those valleys from where they dun ve teh surety to return.... u feel lik killing urself if u fail to be wid ur wife at the birth of ur child.....mr.....my brother died... my father couldnt see his face.... he was in kargil....... n i m not portraying it as a grief..... i m proud of ma dad...... n this is nothing.....sacrfices worth mentioning cant be mentioned here...which everyone cant offer...... the dirty seed u tried to sow between army n common man... i tried it shud not nourish ...n th 2nd seed u tried to sow between nco n jco n officers....i ll address it next time... coz for today its more den enough....tc...MAY ALLAH show u th right path!



No offence but please can you write in english, you are writing your comments not sending an email where you are short of time or space.


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## sonicboom

mlkoo said:


> helo n hi to all!
> well... i ve jst read wat all u wrote...sonic!...u might b right but i think that u r not aware of some facts or sume one has really misled and givn very wrong information to u.... u ve tried to make an earnest endeavour to give an impression dat pak officers r only enjoying perks n priveledges which dey dun even deserve... u even tried to draw a comparison between indian officers and pak officer's benefits....well lets start from the same point...here are som of teh details of wat a liutenant gets in indian army once he joins
> 1. free rations
> 2. furnished accomodation with allied facilities ..... free
> 3. free medical facilities including his siblings...not just parents
> 4. group housing scheme....*
> 5 soft loans for building houses
> 6. transport for childern to their schools
> 7. 2 months of fully paid leave very year
> 8. free travel by rajdhani/ any express train wid family
> 9. basic pay of rs 10500---liutenant
> 10. dearness allowance---57&#37; of basic pay
> 11. city compensatory allowance... if not posted in a big city
> 12. outfit allowance....6000......revised regularly
> 13. field area allowance.... if in field.....upto 3500
> 14. if posted to glacier.....7000
> 15. qualification grant.....more courses u qualify....3000-10000
> 
> well.... janab.... i think... u must hav been able to draw a clear picture of the lifestyle an indian officer experiences and i hope ....coz u were so much vocal on the perks being enjoyed by pak officers... !




Not sure why you are comparing pay and benefits of Indian Army officers with Pakistan Army officers? Where did that come from in the discussion? By the way do you have any link/s to prove your point? *And If IA officers are being paid better than PA officers as per you observation, then believe me they deserve all that.* 

The Indian Army officers are comparatively better than Pakistan Army officers and don&#8217;t you ever dare to compare them with PA officers. *Indian Army officers have many accomplishments under their belts. Name just three accomplishments of Pakistan Army officers since 1948.* I can list blunders after blunders and grave failures of PA officers. And now let me tell you why IA officers are better than PA officers as follows:

1. The majority of returning Pakistani NCO&#8217;s/JCO&#8217;s POW&#8217;s from 71 Indo/Pak war stated clearly that IA officer&#8217;s were better than PA officers. And I can bet if we do the survey again today, you will get the same results.

2. There are incidents from Indo/Pak 71 war where PA officers took refuge in Dhaka leaving their regiments on the border without any high command. An extreme example of cowardice. 

3. Indian Army officers have never let down their nation and have never lost to Pakistan Army officers in any of the wars such as 65, 71, Kargil, and Siachen.

4. IA officers have never surrendered to PA officers in thousands. Shame.

5. IA officers are not involved in real estate business and the Indian public doesn&#8217;t call them property dealers. Now compare that to PA officers, go and see yourself how PA officers wearing commando uniforms running around with real estate files in their hands in defense colonies, dealing and wheeling in real estate as compared to brushing up their training and no wonder why Pakistani public calls them as &#8216;Property Dealers&#8217;.

We have not fought a war since 1971 and PA officers should be very thankful to Pakistani people for their generosity as they continue to pay them without any results. 

Before you and others complain like a cry baby about PA officer&#8217;s benefits, here is my challenge to you, your sympathizers and the PA officers:

*Get my homeland, Kashmir and Siachen, back from Indian occupation. Will you please?* Mush tried with his commando brigade and miserably failed with all the ground links and support as compared to Indians who depend on air for all their supplies. 

*Out there any Mai ka laal?*




> i need not to provide u about wat our officers get....i assume dat u must b aware of dat......there is only one field in above stated facts which is also appllicable to pak officers and dat is marked with a "*"....scroll up please......
> now i know u ll comment on a number of entries above.....so let me clarify those my self for ur ease.....
> 1. no free rations for officers of army
> 2. only acomodation......with just one bad and one chair with allied facilities but NOTHING FREE....rest furnishing is on officr n for allied facilities...he pays bills
> 3. free medical facilities but NOT AT ALL FOR SIBLINGS.....
> 4. yes ... group housing scheme is same
> 5. loans???......huh..... wat to talk about soft loan policy.........even if arranging from commercial banks....permission is mandatory from commander
> 6. sir... no concept of transport for childern here!
> 7. 1 month of leave is authorized once in a year...... ask any of officers u know..... h many times they have spent a complete month wid dere family .... ask dere families rather
> 8. 50% discount on train....dat too just for ur wife only.....NOTHING FREE sir!
> 9. basic pay---8500---liutenant
> 10.dearness allownce???....ask any pak officer...he wont have even heard of it ...sir!
> 11. city compensatory allowance....same goes for it.....visit anyone in "mailsi"...southern punjab...ask him wat is it.......or declare mailsi a mega city...sir!
> 12. outfit allowance...... for Ncos.....in pma only....those who are instructor for drill...no such allowance for officers.....and even den ever yourself compare teh outfit maintained by a **** officer with another officer of any other army....... u ll not feel dat our officers do not get an allowance for it....which others do get
> 13. field.....go to "chor"...ask if he is getting even 1 extra peny for it......be mind ful v r talking of field...not of hard area...coz i know... u ll try to misguide people by mixing a field area with hard area....field area is when ever anyon is out of cant and in an open area(field) for practical exercise....... i hope i need not to explain a hard area now... i expext all the readers to be dat much wise atleast....
> 14. either they go to glacier or in battls in wana or swat..... any place... at maximum they get a sum of rs 3000...either in form of hard area allowance or in form of internal security allowance...respectively....wid due respect sir!
> 15. qualification grant????..... well ... pakistan has got the biggest number of oficers who take sword from royal academy of sandhurst england..... even after doing and getting 1st position in foreign staff courses in grmany, france, jordan and many more...no one gets and not even expexts to be given any such allowance....sir!
> 
> now..... to sum up...some more facts...... one can easily make up as who is gtting more..... from these figures....but at same time dun 4get n b mindful dat indian our currency has different wieghtage as compared to indian.... a car which indian officer can buy in rs 290000......(maruti)..... for buying same **** officer has to pay rs 410000.....means if u take all these facts meentioned above in dollars.... u ll find that difference wud further double......
> now to add to ur hapines "sonic"...and for guidance of all readers.... please refer to "6th CPC" announced by indian govt for indian army officers whereby...
> "very indian officer gets rs 12000 per child for his tution (education) and further 6000 if he wants tto put him in some hostel....this facility can b availed by all officers for 2 children only"
> plz mr sonic....can u kindly show me a mtch to it in our army....sir......plz
> 
> and to end up..... the fact which sonic was trying to exploit to misguide many of readers...... 4 plots.......ist of all let me telll u that 4 plots can b availed by only officers who rise up to the rank of brig.......and for ur kind information....80 % of oficrs retire as majors......so how many plots can rest 20 % consume ....even if they eat na..... even then not as much as u were trying to portray......
> now some facts to answer u.
> 1. it is never like dis that plots r givn 4 free or for rs 4000 per plot...... for ur kind information..... latest plot...ma father got....n it was of 8 marla....he had to pay rs 9 lac..... then it was alloted...otherwise allotment was to be cancelled
> 2. houses which are given...... mr...... officers who subsribe to this scheme only they get it..... n then they have to pay a dwnpayment ...which is 45000 now a days.....n subsequently....intallments of rs 1500 for ist 8 years, 2500 for next 5 years, 3500 for next 5, and 5000 for last 5 years....
> 3. if ur service is less then 23 years ... u r not eligible.....sir
> 4. at nd of service...once house is alloted... again a lumpsum payment is to b paid to get possession of house.
> 5. n one important information....do not just add up all these figures and reply me back and say that it forms an amount which is less then teh amount of hpuse.....answer my question...... wat army does with teh downpayment and installments????..... is it not used in projects to generate economic activity..... can u undermine teh utility these accumulated funds offer to army n this country... where is it invested... is it not for the meting the need of this giant army.....just tell me.... what will happen if u put same downpayment in a fixed account for 23 years and keep on adding to a fixed savings account for 23 years ..every month...wat ll be the profit u ll earn on it.....now understood
> ... even now if u calculate like a misery n say... even then it does not make up teh amount for house... so mr....only dat little margin which is left... is a benefit which a poor army officer is given after the most dedicated, most threatened, most devoted and 24 hours 7 days job for his complete life....... i wud appreciate if every tom dick n harry has those guts to sacrifice his comfort to the level which these officers always do.......... u do not deserve to talk about these people...who leave there loved ones behind and walk down those valleys from where they dun ve teh surety to return.... u feel lik killing urself if u fail to be wid ur wife at the birth of ur child.....mr.....my brother died... my father couldnt see his face.... he was in kargil....... n i m not portraying it as a grief..... i m proud of ma dad...... n this is nothing.....sacrfices worth mentioning cant be mentioned here...which everyone cant offer...... the dirty seed u tried to sow between army n common man... i tried it shud not nourish ...n th 2nd seed u tried to sow between nco n jco n officers....i ll address it next time... coz for today its more den enough....tc...MAY ALLAH show u th right path!



Here we go again. That&#8217;s an irrelevant issue. This shows how ignorant you are with the issue on hand. The issue on hand that concerns me most is the Pakistan Army officer&#8217;s involvement in real estate and the defense colonies. I care less about the pay and the perks being paid to PA officers and that has never been an issue for me. This issue has been beaten to death and not sure what transpired you to start the same old &#8216;roona dhoona&#8217; once again. Did you even care to read the whole thread? 

Let me once again state as I did in one of my previous posts. No one forced anyone to join Pakistan Army. They did it because of their own will and choice. And what can one expect with an FA degree? There is a choice for you complainers. If you feel private sector is better, then no one is stopping you to do so. I am sure there are many who would love to take your place with many tahnks. So, please quit being a crying baby. Put up or leave.

For God&#8217;s sake, now don&#8217;t tell me those worn out, classical arguments of facing hardships on the borders, defending Pakistan to the peril of your lives and so forth. We have had enough of these obtuse excuses and are thoroughly fed-up of this all-purpose monologue. It has been delivered far too many times and has already lost most, if not all, of its allure. No more emotional blackmailing, please.

And next time before you open your mouth to complain, let me post some of the points from my previous posts (mine and also from people of Pakistani) for you to ponder:

(i)	A common Pakistani doesn&#8217;t get even a few tablets of Paracetamol after having queued for hours and endured endless humiliation at public hospitals. For you and for your families, there are helicopters and ambulances with luxurious wards at well-equipped military hospitals [strictly out of bound for common man] -- free of cost. Go and compare any CMH to a General Hospital and find out yourself the disparity between those two entities.

(ii) Barn for cattle at military farms is generally better furnished than the government schools for civilian children. And, few those who are lucky that they at least have a school, be in rubbles, to go to -- more than 50% of them don&#8217;t have even this symbolic consolation. In contrast, PA officer&#8217;s sons/daughter&#8217;s birthrights include O-Level at sumptuous Army Public Schools on highly subsidized rates. 

(iii)	The 140 million &#8216;ordinary&#8217; Pakistanis have fewer swimming pools available to them than the sports centers exclusively on the disposal of officers of the armed forces.

(iv) According to the World Health Organization (WHO), 136 out of 1000 newly born babies die before the age of five in Pakistan. How many officers out of every 1000 passed-out from the PMA embrace martyrdom in the line of duty? 

(v)	*You know, the most repulsive of all is that those, who in reality do face the enemy bullets i.e., jawans, NCOs and JCOs are not much better off either. No less than 50000 of them used to be orderlies &#8211; euphemism for slave &#8211; polishing shoes, making beds of the officers, cooking, doing dishes, and washing baby pampers. And do you know how many of them were court martial and sent to private jail by the PA officers because begum sahiba did not like them? *

(vi) How do you explain that a professor holding a Doctorate -- who started teaching at a public university 35 years back, before you joined the army -- is not entitled to a single residential plot whereas the property given to PA officers -- squarely due to their military service -- is worth of millions rupees?

(vii) How come a brigadier in the army has more perks and privileges than the Chief Justice of Pakistan?

(viii) Why a senior surgeon serving in a government hospital doesn&#8217;t get a fraction of monetary rewards as compared to what a GOC grabs without doing anything productive at all?

(ix) What does a police officer get from the state, despite risking his life, putting up with abuses and curses of the public on daily basis (and quite often flouting the law at the behest of the junta), in relation to good-for-nothing military officers?

(x) Where in the world, a FA or at the most BA passed supervisor/foreman in a security firm is multi-millionaire, by default, on his retirement, entirely because of his job?

(xi) Which government service, irrespective of tenure, academic qualifications and/or assignments, in the entire region of South Asia, results in comparable amount of financial gains than that of military officer career in Pakistan? *What extraordinary, the military officers of Pakistan accomplish to deserve the amazing remunerations?*

(xii)	With more than 40% of the Pakistani population under abject poverty and 13 % infant mortality rate on one hand and then milliner PA officers on the other hand.

(xiii)	World-class recreational facilities for the kith and kin of the military officers, and at the same time not even clean drinking water (what to talk about other basic necessities of daily life) for the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis, yet some of you are complaining without any moral qualms. 

(xiv)	Scores of Pakistani children scavenge rubbish for recyclables for their living; innumerable chotas are sweating across the country to survive? Surely, PA officers don&#8217;t. Your defense housing societies are not at all a part of the Pakistan we dwell in. Your secluded garrisons have nothing to do with the mainstream society &#8211; being crushed under unexplainable hardships.

(xv)	Alas, all those few who do lay down their lives defending the motherland get next to nothing in the land of pure. The wholesale &#8220;bandar bant&#8221; is only for star officers. Here follows the proof: The National Assembly was informed on Monday, September 8, 2003 that during the last 12 years of both political and military regimes (1990-2002) a total of 34 defense officers housing schemes of various sizes for officers of the Pakistan Army were established over an area of almost 1,000 acres of land. *Out of 34, only two housing schemes of 15 acres have been launched for Jawans and non-commissioned officers.*

(xvi)	Would it be wrong to say that these housing schemes are denying right of thousands of jawans, who remain on the frontline laying down their lives in the defense of the motherland. Put it in simple words, the GHQ awards large plots to officers, who buy them at dirt-cheap prices only to sell them off to civilians and make huge profits. It would be interesting to check how many of the original allottees still lived in these housing societies and how many have made quick money by disposing their plots of.

(xvii)	Just last year when as many as 200 old settlements were being bulldozed in Karachi in the Lyari Expressway scheme, 248 acres of prime land on the sea front were given to the Defense Housing Authority at the rate of Rs20 per square yard. The value of this land had been evaluated at Rs. 25,000 per square yard for commercial use and Rs. 15,000 per square yard for residential purposes.

(xviii)	In answer to a Question in the Senate, the federal government has revealed that 485 residential plots in various cities of all four provinces were allotted to Army officers between October 1999 and July 2003. Though the plots were allotted to officers of all ranks from full general down to lieutenant. These plots were not allotted at a subsidy; they were given away almost free. Technically leased, the terms were token: Rs 5 per sq yd premium, with an annual lease of Rs 0.50 per sq yd. This works out to Rs 4000 for a plot just over one and a half kanals, with an annual rent of Rs 80. Even in a depressed real estate market, the worth would be at least Rs 6 million. The plots were allotted according to a policy framed in 1978, by the Zia military regime, but that is no excuse for what is now an institutionalized abuse.

(xix)	It can be argued that those serving in the armed forces should receive greater rewards since they risk their lives in defending the country. Perhaps one should just look at the facts: we have not fought a formal war for 33 years and yet we continue to support five soldiers versus only two policemen per 1,000 citizens. As far as laying down one`s life is concerned, the total number of men and officers killed in all three previous wars put together is less than the number of policemen killed in Karachi alone over the last 10 years.

(xx)	To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But is the building of multi-billion integrated luxury homes with golf course townships in a posh locality in Lahore or the multi-billion dollar development of Karachi beach in association with foreign partnership also a legitimate welfare activity that should be undertaken by the military? 

It is claimed that the DHAs are private bodies and they purchase land in the open market and after development sell them to all. But are the DHAs really private bodies competing with other private bodies in a level playing field? Is there any other private housing society that is headed by a serving corps commander and whose executive functionaries such as the administrator are serving senior army officers drawing salaries from the public exchequer? 

(xxi)	During question hour in the parliament it has transpired that military officers get one after 15 years of service, a second one after 25, a third one after 28 years and a fourth one after 33 years of service each worth more than 15 million rupees in the open market. To call it welfare is stretching the meaning of the word a bit too far.

(xxii)	The lower ranking officers are also in a desperate psychological state. Morale is very low and it is not an accident that the Pakistani military outfits are losing their battles in the tribal areas. It is for these reasons that general Kayani has given wage rises and other privileges to the lower ranks and soldiers. The poor soldiers and ranks have a seething hatred towards the top brass who have become billionaires as their women flaunt and exhibit this wealth with a repugnant vulgarity.

(xxiii)	A A Naizi (of the bangladesh fame) in the last interview before his death was mainly worried about the fact that he didnt get the land he was promised in kasur!
How can ordinary majors, colonels and brigadiers build mansions in DHA on their &#8220;real salaries&#8221; - of course all the money comes from corruption and kickbacks.

(xxiv)	Since August 14, 1947, the day Pakistan came into being, more than 200,000 Americans have embraced &#8216;martyrdom&#8217; in uniform. It means, judge against Pakistan the US has lost several times more of her sons per capita in wars. Have these ongoing sacrifices been translated into blanket kabza of the khakis in the US? No, absolutely not, the defense secretary can still sack the army chief on standing feet?

(xxv)	Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report: One of the major causes of our disgrace was the *moral degeneration which had set in among senior army commanders such as lust for wine and women, and greed for lands and houses,* a large number of senior army officers, particularly those occupying the highest positions, had not only lost the will to fight but also the professional competence necessary for taking the vital and critical decisions demanded of them for the successful prosecution of war.

(xxvi)	Pakistan spends so much of her national budgetary resources on army, yet it used to send young civilian lads to fight in the occupied valley [of Kashmir]. *Why don`t PA officers wage this `jihad` themselves, for which they get fat salaries and dozens of other benefits which a civilian cannot even dream of? *

(xxvii)	*If Pakistan didn&#8217;t have the bomb, we would be on our knees in 24 hours if attacked by India. *1971 is an open testament to this fact. When asked about what he thought of the Pakistan Army, a top Indian general laughed and said &#8220;They are bloody property dealers.&#8221; He was referring to the colonels, brigadiers and generals whose only interest is in Defense Housing Authority (DHA) plots and Cantonment area bungalows.

And lastly being a son of an officer, you have no clue what goes on in the regiment and plight of the poor soldiers. 

And if your dad or brother is not happy being a PA officer, then maybe it's about time for them to think of join IA army for better benefits and pay. Wondering if they will ever qualify for IA's higher standard? The Indian readers of this forum might be able to assist in that regards?


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## omairhr

Pakistani Army, Navy and Air Force officers are overpaid bullies who know nothing but to conquer the country now and again. They hold prime lands, enjoy luxurious housing and utilities, discounts on travel and entertainment, etc which are not available to government officers like doctors who serve the nation equally well. 

KO :: The sad state of Karachi beaches

KO :: Saving Hingol National Park


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## khawajafarid

well joining army is never all about money.its about motherland,sacrifice and love for nation.if you want to make money then better join police


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## Tajdar adil

Some one give me real information.


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## zulfiqar74

Skywalker said:


> No offence but please can you write in english, you are writing your comments not sending an email where you are short of time or space.


 

no offence but skywalker, go take some english lessons, or classes. AS u clearly cannot read.....


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