# The real face of CPEC : Destroying Pakistani Industry



## somebozo

http://tribune.com.pk/story/821418/fta-with-china-pakistan-offers-to-scrap-duties-on-50-of-products/


ISLAMABAD: 
As domestic industries are at risk of being wiped out due to dumping of cheap Chinese products, Pakistan has offered to eliminate duties only on half of the total product lines in the second phase of the free trade agreement (FTA) instead of 90% under the original plan.

Both the countries agreed on four broad principles for implementing the second phase of FTA, which would protect the interest of local industries, said Khurram Dastgir Khan, the Minister of Commerce.

“One of the main principles is that tariff concessions will not be on a reciprocal basis, rather these will be in favour of Pakistan,” Khan said.

Firstly, tariff reduction modalities of the second phase will be independent of the first phase, meaning there will be fresh negotiations on all aspects of the agreement.

Secondly, the tariff reduction will not be on a reciprocal basis and China will give more incentives to Pakistan to make up for the adverse impact of the first phase.

Thirdly, both sides offered different timelines for bringing down duties and on the pace of lowering tariff and in Pakistan’s case it will be slow.

Lastly, if imports surge beyond a threshold, the two countries can apply trigger mechanisms and impose safeguard duties.

Pakistan offered immediate reduction in duties to zero on 50% of product lines, which was far less than the original plan of lowering the duties on 90% of product lines, said Dr Robina Ather, Additional Secretary of Commerce Ministry.

At present, Chinese exporters were enjoying zero duties on 35% of total product lines, she added.

In comparison, China has offered to immediately slash duties to 70% of product lines. It has also suggested that after five years it will reduce duties on another 10% and the 90% target will be achieved in the next 10 years.

However, Pakistan would lower duties on 90% of product lines in the next 15 to 20 years, she added.

These timeframes will be taken up in the next round of negotiations that will be held in Beijing at the end of March.

*Intricacies of FTA*

Both the sides are negotiating the FTA afresh after Pakistani industries complained about the 2006 agreement that was highly in favour of China. Negotiations for implementing the second phase were due but fresh principles were agreed to address the concerns of both the countries.

Dastgir said critics of the 2006 agreement believed that the FTA was not in favour of Pakistan, adding Pakistan had conveyed three main concerns to the Chinese team during the third round of negotiations for implementing the second phase.

Free trade access to China could not be sufficiently utilised as Beijing did not reduce duties on products where Pakistani sectors enjoyed a competitive advantage, said the minister.

Secondly, the margin of preference over other countries that Pakistan should have enjoyed effectively came to naught after China signed similar free trade accords with other countries, particularly the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean).

Finally, Pakistan had been persistently sustaining a loss of Rs22 billion on account of tax exemptions granted to imports from China.

Pakistan did not fully exploit the FTA due to the energy crisis and dumping of Chinese products, the minister remarked. Dumping was the main concern of Pakistani industries, particularly of steel products, polyester staple fibre and many other products, he said.

The commerce ministry has been receiving individual complaints about the dumping of Chinese products.

At present, the balance of trade is in favour of China. Against exports worth $2.5 billion, Pakistan imported $7.5 billion worth of products from China.

However, while defending the FTA, the minister said it was beneficial as well as Pakistan’s cotton exports, particularly, increased from $329 million in 2006 to $1.3 billion in 2014.

_Published in The Express Tribune, January 14th, 2015._

_Like __Business on Facebook_, _follow __@TribuneBiz__ on Twitter to stay informed and join in the conversation._

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## somebozo

KARACHI: 
Developing countries sign free trade agreements (FTAs) with trading partners mainly to increase exports and create better-paying jobs at home.

In Pakistan’s case, however, tariff revisions under FTAs have clearly not worked in its favour, numbers show. Pakistan has signed trade agreements with five countries, namely China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Mauritius.

“None of the major trade agreements Pakistan has signed have shown a significant increase in its exports. However, imports have shown a healthy increase post-all major FTAs signed by Pakistan,” according to an assessment of trade agreements carried out by the Pakistan Business Council (PBC), an advocacy platform consisting of 47 of Pakistan’s largest businesses.

Pakistan had a trade deficit with China, Malaysia and Indonesia when it signed FTAs with them in 2006, 2008 and 2013, respectively. Its trade balance was still in negative with these countries at the end of 2014, data shows.

However, Pakistan has managed to maintain a trade surplus – albeit a small one – with Sri Lanka ($217 million) and Mauritius ($21.3 million) in post-FTA years. With the exception of China, none of these countries was among Pakistan’s top-five import and/or export partners at the end of 2014. As for China, it became Pakistan’s largest import partner, leaving behind Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, in the post-FTA years.

Read: PBC’s report on Pakistan-Indonesia trade

China’s share in Pakistan’s imports was less than 12% in 2009, but increased to more than one-fifth of its total imports at the end of 2014. China held a 5.6% share in Pakistan’s exports in 2009, which increased to 9.1% in 2014.

*So what does the change show?*

In its 2013 study on China-Pakistan trade partnership in the post-FTA era, the PBC found that Pakistan “appeared to have failed to benefit fully” from the agreement. The study said it was due to either Pakistani businesses were not part of the FTA negotiations or the Pakistani negotiators simply lacked the requisite information to negotiate the agreement.

In a separate assessment of the Malaysia-Pakistan FTA that was published earlier this week, PBC researchers noted that Pakistan’s exports to Malaysia have only “marginally increased” since the implementation of the FTA back in 2008.

“One reason for this failure lies in the fact that the items which have the highest potential for exports are either not part of Malaysia’s concession list or (where they are a part) competitors enjoy better tariff rates than Pakistan,” they said. Contrarily, Malaysia’s FTAs with India and China have tariffs that are lower than those in its FTA with Pakistan, putting Pakistani exports at a clear disadvantage.

Trade statistics paint a similarly gloomy picture in the case of Indonesia as well. Pakistan’s exports to Indonesia in 2014 were less than its exports in the preceding year, although Pakistan had signed a preferential trade agreement (PTA) with Indonesia in 2013.

In contrast, Indonesia’s exports to Pakistan surged 74.4% over the same year. Pakistan granted it duty preference for palm oil imports, doubling their value to $1.4 billion in a year. The PBC believes Pakistan failed to extract “any significant concessions” from its PTA with Indonesia.

One of the reasons Pakistan’s various trade agreements have not achieved the desired results is the lack of involvement of the Pakistani business community in the drafting of such agreements, according to the PBC.

Read: Data-sharing system planned to tackle misreporting

It says many local manufacturers and exporters are simply unaware of the exportable items that are part of the zero per cent tariff track in these FTAs.

“The government needs to ensure that the focus (in FTAs) is not only on concessions for agriculture-based exports, but that the value-added manufacturing sector has access to markets that allow it to develop critical mass,” it added.

The writer is a staff correspondent

_Published in The Express Tribune, August 10th, 2015._

_Like __Business on Facebook_, _follow __@TribuneBiz__ on Twitter to stay informed and join in the conversation._

KARACHI: 
The influx of Chinese steel in the country is hurting the local industry, lamented an official, adding that the widening price difference is also causing imports to rise. 

Apart from the private sector, Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM) – the only integrated steel mill in Pakistan – is also facing a stiff challenge due to Chinese imports.

“The PSM is finding it very difficult to compete in the current situation because the cheap imported steel is hurting its market just because of the price difference,” a PSM official told _The Express Tribune._

Although, PSM is not producing billets – a thick steel bar that serves as a basic raw-material for different steel products – these days, it has been facing problems in selling its products owing to its higher cost of production.

According to industry officials, since January, over 100,000 tons of steel billets and hot-rolled coils have been imported from China at prices that are dramatically decreasing month after month.







This is due to the difference of over Rs6,000 between locally produced billets and the imported ones. Current steel billet prices of PSM range between Rs67,000-68,000 per ton including sales tax while the price of Chinese billets after duties and taxes at today’s prices are in the range of Rs60,000-62,000.

As the Chinese economy slows down and domestic consumption drops, the world’s largest steel manufacturing nation has a massive oversupply problem. Over the past few months, cheap steel products from China have flooded the domestic markets due to subsidies on electricity and rebates on exports provided by the Chinese government to manufacturers.

Local steel makers say that Chinese manufacturers have resorted to dump their steel products in other countries by relying on government subsidies, tariff concessions through Free Trade Agreement (FTA) and marginal cost pricing mechanisms.

The two main products manufactured by PSM are steel billets and steel hot rolled coils. In a commodity product such as steel billets and coils, margins are usually thin and with price differentials of Rs6,000 per ton, PSM is facing problems in finding buyers.

Since cheap Chinese steel imports are poised to win a larger market share, the demand for PSM products is expected to decline – leaving its management once again with cash flow issues and having to go back to the begging bowl for further handouts from the government.

Countries such as Egypt, Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, US and India have countered this threat through imposing counter-veiling duties, regulatory duties and other non-tariff barriers to protect their local steel industry. Due to concessions given through the Free Trade Agreement and mis-declaration of non-alloy steel goods as alloy steel, the appropriate tariff barriers are not in place to protect PSM and the rest of Pakistan’s steel industry.

_Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2014._

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## Pomegranate

these are all propaganda theories ... CPEC will be completed no matter what .

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## Tripoli

Pomegranate said:


> these are all propaganda theories ... CPEC will be completed no matter what .


*The article has a point.* Pakistani interests come first. This project's benefits must be maximized and any damage caused by it( for example to the industrial base of Pakistan) must be reduced or eliminated.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

None sense article , local industries should learn to improve their business model

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## kasper95

Tripoli said:


> The article has a point. Pakistani interests come first. This project's benefits must be maximized and any damage caused
> by it( for example to the industria base of Pakistan) must be reduced or eliminated.


I think the second post is talking about other agreements between the two countries and not about actual cpec ,its trying to says that even before the projects started ,they are dumping and killing the local industry and the writer feels after the projects it will be ,you know ..its always better to be careful



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> None sense article , local industries should learn to improve their business model


that's the spirit ,keep it up till the last.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Well; this port will mostly be used for imports and *PAKISTANI* exports.

The amount of goods coming from China will not affect Pakistan Industry as much as described - it'll stimulate the economy and force the local industry to step up game - which in the long term will be better.

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## Tripoli

To be honest I wouldn't even be worried if Pakistan had '*honest and sincere*' leaders. However, this is not the case.



kasper95 said:


> ..its always better to be careful
> 
> 
> that's the spirit ,keep it up till the last.

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## kasper95

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Well; this port will mostly be used for imports and *PAKISTANI* exports.
> 
> The amount of goods coming from China will not affect Pakistan Industry as much as described - it'll stimulate the economy and force the local industry to step up game - which in the long term will be better.


can you tell how it will stimulate the local industry ,I mean can you explain with example so that every one can understand.

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## somebozo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> None sense article , local industries should learn to improve their business model



How do you combat state paid subsidies for under-cost exports??
Dumping of Chinese steel is precisely the reason why no one is coming forward for privatization of PSM...What do you think the Chinese will come to help for? Liberating Kashmir??? 

If you think Chinese are brothers with friendship higher than Himalayas and deeper than oceans?? This is complete bullocks! Pakistan desperation for China represents our complete foreign policy failure...and the Chinese know how to exploit it well...



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Well; this port will mostly be used for imports and *PAKISTANI* exports.
> 
> The amount of goods coming from China will not affect Pakistan Industry as much as described - it'll stimulate the economy and force the local industry to step up game - which in the long term will be better.



And what are you going to export to CHina? Donkey meat??
Pakistani manufacturers are struggling to export to China even when duties are slashed to zero after FTA..while Chinese are actively dumping in the local market...there is a reason why everyone wants to loot the country and run abroad..its is very well suited...


It is not only a question of below cost goods but also a question of low quality goods which make you lose valuable forex by repeated imports..when things break down frequently..they need to be imported frequently..

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## Pomegranate

Tripoli said:


> *The article has a point.* Pakistani interests come first. This project's benefits must be maximized and any damage caused by it( for example to the industrial base of Pakistan) must be reduced or eliminated.


nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .

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## Tripoli

Pomegranate said:


> nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .


I agree. CPEC should not be stopped *but *at the same time Pakistani economic interests should be secured.

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## somebozo

Pomegranate said:


> nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .





Tripoli said:


> I agree. CPEC should not be stopped *but *at the same time Pakistani economic interests should be secured.




There is no problem with CPEC..problem is Pakistani government sucking Chinese balls and giving it concessions which should otherwise not be given...a separate terminal needs to be established to for tighter scrutiny of Chinese goods..and this re branding strategy of Chinese exporters must be bought to an end as it supports counterfeiting.,...All Chinese exporters must be registered in a database and apply for trade mark registration before their product can make way into Pakistan markets...

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## That Guy

Generally speaking, FTAs have never been good for Pakistan. They've almost always favored the other nations, more than they have Pakistani industries, which is one of the reasons behind the huge export deficit.

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## FNFAL

Give the domestic industries a level playing field. While david vs goliath is good in books, make sure your david has some basic protection of being overrun by goliath- 
Any common man in our world will pay for the cheaper option first and then think about long term reliability/nation building
And this mentality helps in more pouring of imported stuff

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## Hellfire

@somebozo It is indeed interesting to note that some members are berating a perfectly understandable piece.

I fully agree with your posts till now. India has a substantially larger manufacturing base, yet we can hardly service a small percentage of our domestic consumer market and have tremendous amount of imports from China which are cheaper and preclude setting up a competitive domestic manufacturing substitute due to high cost of finance for start ups, one of the reasons wherein Rajan was under criticism. It is interesting to see the members actually calling it, the CPEC,a boon.

China remains a nation of manufacturing based exports with production far exceeding the domestic consumer market. The steel example is one which has led to China dumping steel in EU and US with closure of plants over there due to high labor costs and non competitive pricing. And Chinese steel manufacturing plants are so numerous that the slowdown in demand in these nations has led to backwages accumulating and some plants being forced to close or civil disturbances in China itself.

For China, CPEC remains its conduit to reducing cost of export, cost of import of raw materials and a strategic alternative to the increasing hostilities in SCS. If anyone is under impression that local industries in Pakistan will gain, they are mistaken. The only area you will see a spurt of growth will be in service provision. Until and unless Pakistan takes steps to protect itself and encourage local manufacturing at competitive pricing and quality, there are foreseeable closure of established businesses in Pakistan ahead.

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## SQ8

The issue with CPEC is that its a dual edged sword. Where it allows Pakistan the opportunity to truly realise its economic corridor potential; it also negates the effectiveness of its market vis a vis China.
For CPEC to succeed, Pakistan must limit China's involvement to investment and infrastructure construction. Otherwise you will have a lot of Paksitani unemployed youth who will end up joining Daesh or even assisting the Uighur terrorists. They either pay or help them avenge their unemployment.

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## raj76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> None sense article , local industries should learn to improve their business model


Really are u asking ur industry to compete with
1)Economy of scale
2)Subsidy and tax free manufacturing environment
3)latest tech

Goodluck and by the way u shouldnt attatch FTA with CPEC these should be discussed seperately

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## somebozo

Oscar said:


> The issue with CPEC is that its a dual edged sword. Where it allows Pakistan the opportunity to truly realise its economic corridor potential; it also negates the effectiveness of its market vis a vis China.
> For CPEC to succeed, Pakistan must limit China's involvement to investment and infrastructure construction. Otherwise you will have a lot of Paksitani unemployed youth who will end up joining Daesh or even assisting the Uighur terrorists. They either pay or help them avenge their unemployment.




1 SAR = 1.75 CNY
1 SAR = 27.91 PKR

There is no way Chinese can manufacture so cheaply..
and Pakistani are being typical idiots..instead of taking advantage of currency difference and build their own industry they are giving trade corridor to China..The only reason Chinese can compete if by dumping through subsidies and stealing in quality...

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## C130

I would worry that Chinese come in and take over. they set up shop and drive out local Pakistan businesses. they have done this in Africa and Latin America.

not knocking them for it....they are hard workers after all, but they really do destroy local businesses


this is a funny documentary of China in Africa also

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## SQ8

somebozo said:


> 1 SAR = 1.75 CNY
> 1 SAR = 27.91 PKR
> 
> There is no way Chinese can manufacture so cheaply..
> and Pakistani are being typical idiots..instead of taking advantage of currency difference and build their own industry they are giving trade corridor to China..The only reason Chinese can compete if by dumping through subsidies and stealing in quality...


A trade corridor that flows both ways. As such, the corridor isnt exactly what Pakistan wanted. 
Pakistan's corridor dreams were of Koh Kaaf but thanks to Zia's absurd corruption and insistence on using extremism to stay in power; along with the myopic vision of the ISI in managing assets in the Afghan war.. that option was lost forever.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Opens better companies to come to Pakistan new modern Technology to come to Pakistan so Welcome CPEC

Local Industries will still remain as always is the case


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## somebozo

C130 said:


> I would worry that Chinese come in and take over. they setup shop and driving out local Pakistan businesses. they have done this in Africa and Latin America.
> 
> not knocking them for it they hard workers, but they really do destroy local businesses
> 
> 
> this is a funny documentary of China in Africa



Chinese are nobody friend..but again Chinese did not enter into Africa by force..the Africans themselves let it..it is not like the European colonialism where European Armies marched into Africa by force and occupied land..


Even some of the top most Chinese manufacturers are only producing sub-standard junk they dump cheaply into emerging economies and destroy local industries. I had an experience recently with the largest copper tube manufacturer of China..my client reject them because they have tested their samples earlier and it failed the quality control...



Oscar said:


> A trade corridor that flows both ways. As such, the corridor isnt exactly what Pakistan wanted.
> Pakistan's corridor dreams were of Koh Kaaf but thanks to Zia's absurd corruption and insistence on using extremism to stay in power; along with the myopic vision of the ISI in managing assets in the Afghan war.. that option was lost forever.



A trade corridor came in 2015..but where is our industrial development from 1947 to 2015??



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Opens better companies to come to Pakistan new modern Technology to come to Pakistan so Welcome CPEC
> 
> Local Industries will still remain as always is the case



Cheap goods dumping to Pakistan..scamming Pakistani consumer welcome..

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well Pakistani company owners should perhaps focus on importing robotics and other new technologies to improve local production and improve quality instead of whining about things.

Half of their fortune is in Swiss accounts or UAE properties

Local companies can be productive


Joint ventures with Chinese
Better introduction of new models for Production (New machines , Robots -Human)
More spent on improving quality to international standards
Better marketing and understanding of Local Pakistani customer use that advantage
New factories and better textile machines for safer efficient operations 

More energy efficient machines and focus on R&D 

If Local Pakistani company will make second rate Suzuki Mehran in Pakistan then its better for that company to die


Age of GOLDEN spoon is over we live in Free Trade society

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## somebozo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well Pakistani company owners should perhaps focus on importing robotics and other new technologies to improve local production and improve quality instead of whining about things.
> 
> Half of their fortune is in Swiss accounts or UAE properties
> 
> Local companies can be productive
> 
> 
> Joint ventures with Chinese
> Better introduction of new models for Production (New machines , Robots -Human)
> More spent on improving quality to international standards
> Better marketing and understanding of Local Pakistani customer use that advantage
> New factories and better textile machines for safer efficient operations
> 
> More energy efficient machines and focus on R&D
> 
> If Local Pakistani company will make second rate Suzuki Mehran in Pakistan then its better for that company to die
> 
> 
> Age of GOLDEN spoon is over we live in Free Trade society



Well thanks to bhutoo socialism..he eroded the spirit of competition in Pakistani market and introduced socialist protectionism..which means companies are guaranteed market share despite churning our third rate products...This is also destroyed the Pakistani consumer mindset that rather than going for quality product with long term reduction of operating cost they are only looking at low upfront cost..nothing explains this better than the prevalent power crisis in the country which is at large due to wastage and theft.

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## New Resolve

The way forward is to let Chinese invest here in the Free Trade Zones being set up so local people are employed, win win.

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## Ryuzaki

All the work for CPEC is being done by Chinese companies,so there is no benefit to local MSMEs.


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## HariPrasad

somebozo said:


> http://tribune.com.pk/story/821418/fta-with-china-pakistan-offers-to-scrap-duties-on-50-of-products/
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD:
> As domestic industries are at risk of being wiped out due to dumping of cheap Chinese products, Pakistan has offered to eliminate duties only on half of the total product lines in the second phase of the free trade agreement (FTA) instead of 90% under the original plan.
> 
> Both the countries agreed on four broad principles for implementing the second phase of FTA, which would protect the interest of local industries, said Khurram Dastgir Khan, the Minister of Commerce.
> 
> “One of the main principles is that tariff concessions will not be on a reciprocal basis, rather these will be in favour of Pakistan,” Khan said.
> 
> Firstly, tariff reduction modalities of the second phase will be independent of the first phase, meaning there will be fresh negotiations on all aspects of the agreement.
> 
> Secondly, the tariff reduction will not be on a reciprocal basis and China will give more incentives to Pakistan to make up for the adverse impact of the first phase.
> 
> Thirdly, both sides offered different timelines for bringing down duties and on the pace of lowering tariff and in Pakistan’s case it will be slow.
> 
> Lastly, if imports surge beyond a threshold, the two countries can apply trigger mechanisms and impose safeguard duties.
> 
> Pakistan offered immediate reduction in duties to zero on 50% of product lines, which was far less than the original plan of lowering the duties on 90% of product lines, said Dr Robina Ather, Additional Secretary of Commerce Ministry.
> 
> At present, Chinese exporters were enjoying zero duties on 35% of total product lines, she added.
> 
> In comparison, China has offered to immediately slash duties to 70% of product lines. It has also suggested that after five years it will reduce duties on another 10% and the 90% target will be achieved in the next 10 years.
> 
> However, Pakistan would lower duties on 90% of product lines in the next 15 to 20 years, she added.
> 
> These timeframes will be taken up in the next round of negotiations that will be held in Beijing at the end of March.
> 
> *Intricacies of FTA*
> 
> Both the sides are negotiating the FTA afresh after Pakistani industries complained about the 2006 agreement that was highly in favour of China. Negotiations for implementing the second phase were due but fresh principles were agreed to address the concerns of both the countries.
> 
> Dastgir said critics of the 2006 agreement believed that the FTA was not in favour of Pakistan, adding Pakistan had conveyed three main concerns to the Chinese team during the third round of negotiations for implementing the second phase.
> 
> Free trade access to China could not be sufficiently utilised as Beijing did not reduce duties on products where Pakistani sectors enjoyed a competitive advantage, said the minister.
> 
> Secondly, the margin of preference over other countries that Pakistan should have enjoyed effectively came to naught after China signed similar free trade accords with other countries, particularly the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean).
> 
> Finally, Pakistan had been persistently sustaining a loss of Rs22 billion on account of tax exemptions granted to imports from China.
> 
> Pakistan did not fully exploit the FTA due to the energy crisis and dumping of Chinese products, the minister remarked. Dumping was the main concern of Pakistani industries, particularly of steel products, polyester staple fibre and many other products, he said.
> 
> The commerce ministry has been receiving individual complaints about the dumping of Chinese products.
> 
> At present, the balance of trade is in favour of China. Against exports worth $2.5 billion, Pakistan imported $7.5 billion worth of products from China.
> 
> However, while defending the FTA, the minister said it was beneficial as well as Pakistan’s cotton exports, particularly, increased from $329 million in 2006 to $1.3 billion in 2014.
> 
> _Published in The Express Tribune, January 14th, 2015._
> 
> _Like __Business on Facebook_, _follow __@TribuneBiz__ on Twitter to stay informed and join in the conversation._



Pakistan would have been greatly benefited had it gone for open tendering on their own terms and condition and invited globle tenders. Had pakistan had any idea of giving CHina this port development, they could have asked china to match best terms of all who had participated. I believe this approach would have helped pakistan in getting a much more favorable deal.

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## raj76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well Pakistani company owners should perhaps focus on importing robotics and other new technologies to improve local production and improve quality instead of whining about things.
> 
> Half of their fortune is in Swiss accounts or UAE properties
> 
> Local companies can be productive
> 
> 
> Joint ventures with Chinese
> Better introduction of new models for Production (New machines , Robots -Human)
> More spent on improving quality to international standards
> Better marketing and understanding of Local Pakistani customer use that advantage
> New factories and better textile machines for safer efficient operations
> 
> More energy efficient machines and focus on R&D
> 
> If Local Pakistani company will make second rate Suzuki Mehran in Pakistan then its better for that company to die
> 
> 
> Age of GOLDEN spoon is over we live in Free Trade society



wow what world u live in do u know the kind of subsidies chinese manufacturers get or kind of economy of scales they enjoy u have no idea without duties and anti dumping laws u r industry will die
and u do know that cpec is designed to uplift ppl on western chinese border they want to set industry in that part of there country so why would they setup industry in pakistan

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## somebozo

HariPrasad said:


> Pakistan would have been greatly benefited had it gone for open tendering on their own terms and condition and invited globle tenders. Had pakistan had any idea of giving CHina this port development, they could have asked china to match best terms of all who had participated. I believe this approach would have helped pakistan in getting a much more favorable deal.



The fact is that CPEC is neither a gift not a blessing or anything as such from China...the entire 46 billion Chinese investment is a loan on 18% interest..and which is in turn being paid back to Chinese contractors..Pakistan could have raised capital in the international market or offshore banks on much better terms...

The only thing deeper than the oceans and higher than Himalayas is the Chinese finger being given in Pakistani behind!



New Resolve said:


> The way forward is to let Chinese invest here in the Free Trade Zones being set up so local people are employed, win win.



Chinese free zone will employ Chinese workers..and they will use he Chinese port..it will generate peanut revenue for the national treasury at a vast expense of Pakistani nation..just wait and watch...very soon Pakistani unemployed and starving youth will be joining Ughair terrorist or kidnapping Chinese citizens for ransom...

Patwari mindset wants to turn Pakistan simply into a duty collecting trade hub of Chinese exports!

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## Ryuzaki

somebozo said:


> The fact is that CPEC is neither a gift not a blessing or anything as such from China...the entire 46 billion Chinese investment is a loan on 18% interest..and which is in turn being paid back to Chinese contractors..Pakistan could have raised capital in the international market or offshore banks on much better terms...
> 
> The only thing deeper than the oceans and higher than Himalayas is the Chinese finger being given in Pakistani behind!
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese free zone will employ Chinese workers..and they will use he Chinese port..it will generate peanut revenue for the national treasury at a vast expense of Pakistani nation..just wait and watch...very soon Pakistani unemployed and starving youth will be joining Ughair terrorist or kidnapping Chinese citizens for ransom...
> 
> Patwari mindset wants to turn Pakistan simply into a duty collecting trade hub of Chinese exports!



You have got to congratulate the Chinese,they will successfully turn a nation of 200 million(and rising) into a country of traders!


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## Perpendicular

kasper95 said:


> that's the spirit ,keep it up till the last.


 Smart a



somebozo said:


> The only thing deeper than the oceans and higher than Himalayas is the Chinese finger being given in Pakistani behind!


Already been 5 mins since I read that post, am still laughing.

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## Genesis

somebozo said:


> There is no problem with CPEC..problem is Pakistani government sucking Chinese balls and giving it concessions which should otherwise not be given...a separate terminal needs to be established to for tighter scrutiny of Chinese goods..and this re branding strategy of Chinese exporters must be bought to an end as it supports counterfeiting.,...All Chinese exporters must be registered in a database and apply for trade mark registration before their product can make way into Pakistan markets...


Pakistan is a poor nation, there I said it. Non counterfeit products, your people can't afford. Everyone likes a Gucci, a Tom Ford, but those are upwards of 5000 USD, about 3 years salary for a average Pakistani man.

Let me ask you, what do you want China to do. To play fair? We are, but we are Lebron and you are, well, not. Subsidies is part of it, but infrastructure and experience as well as a host of other qualities that we developed over the years is not something easily duplicated. Blaming it on subsidies is in fact lazy and hardly the truth. This is the same Indian excuse, which is hardly accurate because we are the manufacturing powerhouse of the world, not to India, or Pakistan.

The hard truth of Pakistan is you have limited amount to offer, take advantage of everything. I remember like yesterday, American documentaries in 90s and early 2000s talked of how Americans were takiing advantage of China, kicking us out of our homes and getting preferential treatment.

Fast forward 2016, a totally different narrative has emerged. China challenging the West in science and higher tier goods and services, as well as exploiting Africa.

You can't come into the league as a rookie and expect to get the same calls as Lebron, become Curry, win a title and 2 MVPs and then we'll talk.

China and Pakistan are partners, the fact you would question China's commitment to Pakistan shows perfectly that Pakistan is very much a partner and not a benefactor in this arrangement.




hellfire said:


> @somebozo It is indeed interesting to note that some members are berating a perfectly understandable piece.
> 
> I fully agree with your posts till now. India has a substantially larger manufacturing base, yet we can hardly service a small percentage of our domestic consumer market and have tremendous amount of imports from China which are cheaper and preclude setting up a competitive domestic manufacturing substitute due to high cost of finance for start ups, one of the reasons wherein Rajan was under criticism. It is interesting to see the members actually calling it, the CPEC,a boon.
> 
> China remains a nation of manufacturing based exports with production far exceeding the domestic consumer market. The steel example is one which has led to China dumping steel in EU and US with closure of plants over there due to high labor costs and non competitive pricing. And Chinese steel manufacturing plants are so numerous that the slowdown in demand in these nations has led to backwages accumulating and some plants being forced to close or civil disturbances in China itself.
> 
> For China, CPEC remains its conduit to reducing cost of export, cost of import of raw materials and a strategic alternative to the increasing hostilities in SCS. If anyone is under impression that local industries in Pakistan will gain, they are mistaken. The only area you will see a spurt of growth will be in service provision. Until and unless Pakistan takes steps to protect itself and encourage local manufacturing at competitive pricing and quality, there are foreseeable closure of established businesses in Pakistan ahead.



If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.

Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you? 

China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.

Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.

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## raj76

Genesis said:


> Pakistan is a poor nation, there I said it. Non counterfeit products, your people can't afford. Everyone likes a Gucci, a Tom Ford, but those are upwards of 5000 USD, about 3 years salary for a average Pakistani man.
> 
> Let me ask you, what do you want China to do. To play fair? We are, but we are Lebron and you are, well, not. Subsidies is part of it, but infrastructure and experience as well as a host of other qualities that we developed over the years is not something easily duplicated. Blaming it on subsidies is in fact lazy and hardly the truth. This is the same Indian excuse, which is hardly accurate because we are the manufacturing powerhouse of the world, not to India, or Pakistan.
> 
> The hard truth of Pakistan is you have limited amount to offer, take advantage of everything. I remember like yesterday, American documentaries in 90s and early 2000s talked of how Americans were takiing advantage of China, kicking us out of our homes and getting preferential treatment.
> 
> Fast forward 2016, a totally different narrative has emerged. China challenging the West in science and higher tier goods and services, as well as exploiting Africa.
> 
> You can't come into the league as a rookie and expect to get the same calls as Lebron, become Curry, win a title and 2 MVPs and then we'll talk.
> 
> China and Pakistan are partners, the fact you would question China's commitment to Pakistan shows perfectly that Pakistan is very much a partner and not a benefactor in this arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.
> 
> Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you?
> 
> China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.
> 
> Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.



but buddy if we wont protect our industries there wont be any left to compete against chinese, in india we want make in india because unlike us or europe we have large labour force which can only be utilised by manufaturing sector , service industry can never create so many jobs, so please look at things with full spectrum not just as chinese


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## Grevion

The only way Pakistan can benefit from the CPEC is if it can use the infra developed for its own benefits to boost its export and cheaper import.
Apart from that maybe a right tax collection system avoiding the loopholes would be benificial.


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## SQ8

somebozo said:


> A trade corridor came in 2015..but where is our industrial development from 1947 to 2015?


We ate it, or our parents and grandparents did. What did they achieve in change other than letting corrupt men rule? Dictators and Political Messiah's alike?


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## war&peace

Just a general but on the topic note, NO country in the world will watch or care for your interests unless and until you do it yourself. Even the mother does not feed the infant until he/she cries. China is a friend, but still it will mind its business interests first, however, the friendship means that if Pakistan raises its concerns, the response should be positive and accommodating and which I'm sure China will act like one but unfortunately we lack good leadership. And Ishock Dark has already said that he is borrowing debt for CPEC...a pretty frightening statement since we have been lead to believe that CPEC is Chinese investment and it should be the case since its China that will benefit a lot from CPEC.


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## Genesis

raj76 said:


> but buddy if we wont protect our industries there wont be any left to compete against chinese, in india we want make in india because unlike us or europe we have large labour force which can only be utilised by manufaturing sector , service industry can never create so many jobs, so please look at things with full spectrum not just as chinese



If protection worked, you wouldn't have needed to liberalize in 91. If it worked we wouldn't have had to liberalize in 79.

Truth of the matter is Chinese quality is going up and price isn't changing much. Protecting one sector of Indian industry is just going to hurt another. American anti dumping on Chinese steel is hurting the American industries that need steel badly, because all the nations that doesn't do protectionism can still access our steel, and their cost are still low.

If you are fat, you switch to a healthy lifestyle and exercise, you don't double down on donuts and never look at a mirror. That's not how the world works.

Just look at your successful industries, you let them compete on their terms, and you win. China has some harsh protectionist industry they are as competitive internationally as our soccer team.

Have faith in your country man that in the face of adversity they won't lay down and die, and if they will, they'll die anyways.

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## RiazHaq

http://www.riazhaq.com/2014/12/pak-china-industrial-corridor-to-boost.html


Beyond the initial phase, there are plans to establish special economic zones in the Corridor where Chinese companies will locate factories. Extensive manufacturing collaboration between the two neighbors will include a wide range of products from cheap toys and textiles to consumer electronics and supersonic fighter planes.

The basic idea of an industrial corridor is to develop a sound industrial base, served by competitive infrastructure as a prerequisite for attracting investments into export oriented industries and manufacturing. Such industries have helped a succession of countries like Indonesia, Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, South Korea, Taiwan, China and now even Vietnam rise from low-cost manufacturing base to more advanced, high-end exports. As a country's labour gets too expensive to be used to produce low-value products, some poorer country takes over and starts the climb to prosperity.

Once completed, the Pak-China industrial corridor with a sound industrial base and competitive infrastructure combined with low labor costs is expected to draw growing FDI from manufacturers in many other countries looking for a low-cost location to build products for exports to rich OECD nations.


http://www.riazhaq.com/2014/12/pak-china-industrial-corridor-to-boost.html

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## somebozo

war&peace said:


> Just a general but on the topic note, NO country in the world will watch or care for your interests unless and until you do it yourself. Even the mother does not feed the infant until he/she cries. China is a friend, but still it will mind its business interests first, however, the friendship means that if Pakistan raises its concerns, the response should be positive and accommodating and which I'm sure China will act like one but unfortunately we lack good leadership. And Ishock Dark has already said that he is borrowing debt for CPEC...a pretty frightening statement since we have been lead to believe that CPEC is Chinese investment and it should be the case since its China that will benefit a lot from CPEC.




• Though Pakistan’s installed capacity is 22,800 MW to meet current demand of 19,000 MW, it produces only 12,000 MW
The question is...why are we not producing power to full capacity??? Because Islamic brotherhood with Arabs means we installed HFO fired power plants which are hell expensive to operate...



RiazHaq said:


> http://www.riazhaq.com/2014/12/pak-china-industrial-corridor-to-boost.html
> 
> 
> Beyond the initial phase, there are plans to establish special economic zones in the Corridor where Chinese companies will locate factories. Extensive manufacturing collaboration between the two neighbors will include a wide range of products from cheap toys and textiles to consumer electronics and supersonic fighter planes.
> 
> The basic idea of an industrial corridor is to develop a sound industrial base, served by competitive infrastructure as a prerequisite for attracting investments into export oriented industries and manufacturing. Such industries have helped a succession of countries like Indonesia, Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, South Korea, Taiwan, China and now even Vietnam rise from low-cost manufacturing base to more advanced, high-end exports. As a country's labour gets too expensive to be used to produce low-value products, some poorer country takes over and starts the climb to prosperity.
> 
> Once completed, the Pak-China industrial corridor with a sound industrial base and competitive infrastructure combined with low labor costs is expected to draw growing FDI from manufacturers in many other countries looking for a low-cost location to build products for exports to rich OECD nations.
> 
> 
> http://www.riazhaq.com/2014/12/pak-china-industrial-corridor-to-boost.html




I will tell you what the Chinese will do...turn Made in Pakistan into a medicore brand of shame!

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## barbarosa

The great destruction of Pakistani Industries is WAPDA load sheeding not CPEC. We destructed our country ourselves not by enemy.

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## somebozo

50% of Chinese exports are counterfeit garbage which gets no entry from Custom authorities...
Shut this down and Chinese economy will go back light years!

The only quality manufacturing done is China is usually foreign factories under their own quality control..Even major Chinese brands like Midea and Haier only started appearing recently....and have a long way to go in improving their quality....



Genesis said:


> Pakistan is a poor nation, there I said it. Non counterfeit products, your people can't afford. Everyone likes a Gucci, a Tom Ford, but those are upwards of 5000 USD, about 3 years salary for a average Pakistani man.
> 
> Let me ask you, what do you want China to do. To play fair? We are, but we are Lebron and you are, well, not. Subsidies is part of it, but infrastructure and experience as well as a host of other qualities that we developed over the years is not something easily duplicated. Blaming it on subsidies is in fact lazy and hardly the truth. This is the same Indian excuse, which is hardly accurate because we are the manufacturing powerhouse of the world, not to India, or Pakistan.
> 
> The hard truth of Pakistan is you have limited amount to offer, take advantage of everything. I remember like yesterday, American documentaries in 90s and early 2000s talked of how Americans were takiing advantage of China, kicking us out of our homes and getting preferential treatment.
> 
> Fast forward 2016, a totally different narrative has emerged. China challenging the West in science and higher tier goods and services, as well as exploiting Africa.
> 
> You can't come into the league as a rookie and expect to get the same calls as Lebron, become Curry, win a title and 2 MVPs and then we'll talk.
> 
> China and Pakistan are partners, the fact you would question China's commitment to Pakistan shows perfectly that Pakistan is very much a partner and not a benefactor in this arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.
> 
> Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you?
> 
> China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.
> 
> Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.





barbarosa said:


> The great destruction of Pakistani Industries is WAPDA load sheeding not CPEC. We destructed our country ourselves not by enemy.



That is also a major factory..you are absolutely correct!

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## Genesis

somebozo said:


> 50% of Chinese exports are counterfeit garbage which gets no entry from Custom authorities...
> Shut this down and Chinese economy will go back light years!
> 
> The only quality manufacturing done is China is usually foreign factories under their own quality control..Even major Chinese brands like Midea and Haier only started appearing recently....and have a long way to go in improving their quality....



All that says is why China sucks not how Pakistan can be competitive.

BTW, we became a 11 trillion dollar economy by making 100% crap, how about that, we must be the most popular people in the world for people to pay money for crap.

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## somebozo

grey boy 2 said:


> Open source for the so-called "18%" interest
> OR its nothing but "bad breath" coming out from a wannabe Arab boots licker



Actually you may be right..i mixed up something..

*Loans to the Pakistani Government[edit]*
Approximately $11 billion worth of infrastructure projects being developed by the Pakistani government will be financed by concessionary loans, with composite interest rates of 1.6%,[183] after Pakistan successfully lobbied the Chinese government to reduce interest rates from an initial 3%.[184] The loans are subsidised by the government of China, and are to be dispersed by the Exim Bank of China and theChina Development Bank. For comparison, loans for previous Pakistani infrastructure projects financed by the World Bank carried an interest rate between 5% and 8.5%,[185] while interest rates on market loans approach 12%.[186]

The loan money would be used to finance projects which are planned and executed by the Pakistani government. Portions of the approximately $6.6 billion[74] Karachi–Lahore Motorway are already under construction.[187] The $2.9 billion phase which will connect the city of Multan to the city of Sukkur over a distance of 392 kilometres has also been approved,[188] with 90% of costs to be financed by the Chinese government at concessional interest rates, while the remaining 10% is to be financed by the Public Sector Development Programme of the Pakistani government.[189] In May 2016, the $2.9 billion loan were given final approvals required prior to disbursement of the funds were given by the Government of the People's Republic of China on May 4, 2016, and will be concessional loans with an interest rate of 2.0%.[63] The National Highway Authority of Pakistan reported that contractors arrived on site soon after the loan received final approval.[63]

The China Development Bank will finance the $920 million towards the cost of reconstruction of the 487 kilometer portion of the Karakoram Highway between Burhan and Raikot.[190][191] An addition $1.26 billion will be lent by the China Exim Bank for the construction of the Havelian to Thakot portion of this 487 kilometer stretch of roadway,[61][192] to be dispersed as low-interest rate concessional loans.[63]

The long-planned 27.1 km long $1.6 billion Orange Line of the Lahore Metro is regarded as a commercial project project,[178] and does not qualify for the Exim Bank's 1.6% interest rate. It will instead by financed at a 2.4% interest rate[129] after China agreed to reduce interest rates from an originally planned rate of 3.4%.[193]

The $44 million Pakistan-China Fiber Optic Project, a 820 km long fibre optic wire connecting Pakistan and China, will be constructed using concessionary loans at an interest rate of 2%, rather than the 1.6% rate applied to other projects.[194]

*Interest-free loans for Gwadar projects[edit]*
The government of China in August 2015 announced that concessionary loans for several projects in Gwadar totalling $757 million would be converted 0% interest loans.[195] The projects which are now to financed by the 0% interest loans include: the construction of the $140 million Eastbay Expressway project, installation of breakwaters in Gwadar which will cost $130 million, a $360 million coal power plant in Gwadar, a $27 million project to dredge berths in Gwadar harbour, and a $100 million 300-bed hospital in Gwadar.[196] Pakistan will only repay the principle on these loans.

In September 2015, the government of China also announced that the $230 million Gwadar International Airport project would no longer be financed by loans, but would instead be constructed by grants which the government of Pakistan will not be required to repay.[184]

*Loans to private consortia[edit]*
$15.5 billion worth of energy projects are to be constructed by joint Chinese-Pakistani firms, rather than by the governments of either China or Pakistan. The Exim Bank of China will finance those investments at 5–6% interest rates, while the government of Pakistan will be contractually obliged to purchase electricity from those firms at pre-negotiated rates.[138]

As an example, the 1,223MW Balloki Power Plant does not fall under the concessionary loan rate of 1.6%, as the project is not being developed by the Pakistani government. Instead, it is considered to be a private sector investment as its construction will be undertaken by a consortium of Harbin Electric and Habib Rafiq Limited after they successfully bid against international competitors.[197] Chinese state-owned banks will provide loans to the consortium that are subsidised by the Chinese government. In the case of the Balloki Power Plant, state-owned banks will finance the project at an interest rate of 5%,[198] while the Pakistani government will purchase electricity at the lowest bid rate of 7.973 cents per unit.[197]

*Asian Development Bank assistance[edit]*
While the E-35 expressway is considered to be a crucial part of the route between Gwadar and China, the E35 will not be financed by CPEC funds. The project will instead be financed by the Asian Development Bank.[108]

The N70 project is not officially a part of CPEC but will connect the CPEC's Western Alignment to the Karachi-Lahore Motorway at Multan. The project will be financed as part of a $195 million package by the Asian Development Bank announced in May 2015 to upgrade theN70 National Highway and N50 National Highway.[100] In January 2016, The United Kingdom's Department for International Developmentannounced a $72.4 million grant to Pakistan for roadway improvements in the province of Balochistan, thereby reducing the total Asian Development Bank loan from $195 million to $122.6 million.[199]

The M-4 Motorway between Faisalabad and Multan is not to be financed by the Chinese government as part of CPEC, but will instead be the first infrastructure project partially financed by the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and will be co-financed along with the Asian Development Bank for a total of approximately $275 million.[84] Portions of the project will also be funded by a $90.7 million grant announced in October 2015 by the government of the United Kingdom towards the construction of the Gojra-Shorkot section of the M4 Motorway project.[107]



Genesis said:


> All that says is why China sucks not how Pakistan can be competitive.
> 
> BTW, we became a 11 trillion dollar economy by making 100% crap, how about that, we must be the most popular people in the world for people to pay money for crap.



What Chinese export to the world is markedly different than what they dump in the Asian countries.
So far...anything i have encountered from China in the Pakistani market happens to be ...Cheap counterfeit junk...And that s why manufacturers are still sticking to European and American made components..the prime reason of CPEC is to bring industrial revolution..it is failing at that due to trust issues on Chinese quality...and rather will become a consumer dumping route..

I did not praise the Pakistani manufacturers either..the are addicted to protectionism rather than competition and only churn out cheap junk...actually opening of trade in high quality goods to drive our cheap manufacturers from the market is good...Pak Suzuki , Indus Corolla, Altas Honda they all need to go bankrupt..

Had Pakistani industry kept up..it would have paved the way for its own innovation..but what do Pakistani industries produce?? High priced junk..with designed not evolved since 1970s!


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## war&peace

somebozo said:


> CPEC is Chinese loan at *18% interes*t and it only propelled because a lot of people are making kick backs..
> 
> • Though Pakistan’s installed capacity is 22,800 MW to meet current demand of 19,000 MW, it produces only 12,000 MW
> The question is...why are we not producing power to full capacity??? Because Islamic brotherhood with Arabs means we installed HFO fired power plants which are hell expensive to operate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will tell you what the Chinese will do...turn Made in Pakistan into a medicore brand of shame!


That's frightening and what is that figure 46 billion usd investment for?...I would appreciate if you backup this claim with a credible source. I can believe the kickbacks part though. 

As far as energy crisis is concerned, it is partially artificial and partially it is the mess up of past many govts and it all started with the coming into power of the most corrupt couple in the history of Pakistan BB and her equally or even more corrupt husband...signed the deals and provided sovereign guarantees for installing the fossil fuel based power generation plants at an exorbitant price/unit as they made billions through kickbacks.
The later governments did not address the issue in time including NS, Musharraf, NS and now Khwajasra has made billions in many of the projects ...while the renewable energy potential is sufficient to cater for all current and even future needs for generations to come..i.e. hydel, solar, wind, biomass and nuclear.

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## raj76

Genesis said:


> If protection worked, you wouldn't have needed to liberalize in 91. If it worked we wouldn't have had to liberalize in 79.
> 
> Truth of the matter is Chinese quality is going up and price isn't changing much. Protecting one sector of Indian industry is just going to hurt another. American anti dumping on Chinese steel is hurting the American industries that need steel badly, because all the nations that doesn't do protectionism can still access our steel, and their cost are still low.
> 
> If you are fat, you switch to a healthy lifestyle and exercise, you don't double down on donuts and never look at a mirror. That's not how the world works.
> 
> Just look at your successful industries, you let them compete on their terms, and you win. China has some harsh protectionist industry they are as competitive internationally as our soccer team.
> 
> Have faith in your country man that in the face of adversity they won't lay down and die, and if they will, they'll die anyways.


lol please dont teach me what is liberalization and what we did and dont compare us with any country we have huge domestic market plus we are reforming the sectors were we need and protecting the industries we need to. we cant feed rhetorics to ppl who will loose there job when industry will close down. u have given (and are giving) subsidies to u r industries its not that they are playing on a level field and competing

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## somebozo

war&peace said:


> That's frightening and what is that figure 46 billion usd investment for?...I would appreciate if you backup this claim with a credible source. I can believe the kickbacks part though.
> 
> As far as energy crisis is concerned, it is partially artificial and partially it is the mess up of past many govts and it all started with the coming into power of the most corrupt couple in the history of Pakistan BB and her equally or even more corrupt husband...signed the deals and provided sovereign guarantees for installing the fossil fuel based power generation plants at an exorbitant price/unit as they made billions through kickbacks.
> *The later governments did not address the issue in time including NS, Musharraf, NS and now Khwajasra has made billions in many of the projects ...while the renewable energy potential is sufficient to cater for all current and even future needs for generations to come..i.e. hydel, solar, wind, biomass and nuclear.*




I have already withdrawn my statement of 18% loan interest as the information is not clear.



Genesis said:


> If protection worked, you wouldn't have needed to liberalize in 91. If it worked we wouldn't have had to liberalize in 79.
> 
> Truth of the matter is Chinese quality is going up and price isn't changing much. Protecting one sector of Indian industry is just going to hurt another. American anti dumping on Chinese steel is hurting the American industries that need steel badly, because all the nations that doesn't do protectionism can still access our steel, and their cost are still low.
> 
> If you are fat, you switch to a healthy lifestyle and exercise, you don't double down on donuts and never look at a mirror. That's not how the world works.
> 
> Just look at your successful industries, you let them compete on their terms, and you win. China has some harsh protectionist industry they are as competitive internationally as our soccer team.
> 
> Have faith in your country man that in the face of adversity they won't lay down and die, and if they will, they'll die anyways.




American do not want to shut down their steel plants under subsidy pressure of Chinese..such subsidies are specifically intended to destroy importing nation industry therefore illegal and the US will take actions against it..it is not starving anyone off steel..it is creating a level playing field between manufacturers using domestic steel and those using imported..

Words like quality and Chinese dont make sense in the same line...there is no improvement in Chinese quality..the prices have not changed because Chinese have invented engineering level theft in quality and specifications...Chinese suppliers create a good impression of being cheap..only if you know what is being stolen from your pocket!

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## war&peace

somebozo said:


> I have already withdrawn my statement of 18% loan interest as the information is not clear.


Good because we should better be careful in accepting any such figures without a credible source as you know anti-CPEC lobby is very active and lying and false propaganda is the first step.

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## Genesis

raj76 said:


> lol please dont teach me what is liberalization and what we did and dont compare us with any country we have huge domestic market plus we are reforming the sectors were we need and protecting the industries we need to. we cant feed rhetorics to ppl who will loose there job when industry will close down. u have given (and are giving) subsidies to u r industries its not that they are playing on a level field and competing



The only argument you have is China cheats. That is your opinion, I say that because the end result is very different. China didn't invent subsidies and there are very strict rules regarding subsidies, I'm not saying there isn't, but if China's massive success is so tied to subsides, we wouldn't have succeeded. 

Unless you are of the opinion everyone is stupid except us and we are taking advantage of everyone.

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## somebozo

war&peace said:


> Good because we should better be careful in accepting any such figures without a credible source as you know anti-CPEC lobby is very active and lying and false propaganda is the first step.



Regardless of the interest rate it is clear that the entire amount is a loan and not an investment..countries promote foreign investments because it promotes economic growth and employment..loans do not promote growth they always leave your economy with a higher value...a loan even at 1% interest is less favorable over investment. Therefore it comes at a shameless expense to the nation that we are being forced to accept Chinese labor for the project..it is just a clever way of routing money back into the Chinese economy while we are left with the responsibility of returning it...the wages paid to Chinese workers do not count! 



Genesis said:


> The only argument you have is China cheats. That is your opinion, I say that because the end result is very different. China didn't invent subsidies and there are very strict rules regarding subsidies, I'm not saying there isn't, but if China's massive success is so tied to subsides, we wouldn't have succeeded.
> 
> Unless you are of the opinion everyone is stupid except us and we are taking advantage of everyone.



There is no Chinese company which can produce quality steel like the Germans or quality copper tube like the Americans...hence the only way to sell it is give steep discounts which are made up by government subsidies..

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## PaklovesTurkiye

war&peace said:


> Good because we should better be careful in accepting any such figures without a credible source as you know anti-CPEC lobby is very active and lying and false propaganda is the first step.



Exactly....Indians will definitely like to create controversies regarding CPEC. Irrespective of what others do......

We have consensus in Pakistan that it should be built at any cost.

We should exploit CPEC to our fullest advantage, also keeping our local businesses intact.

It depends more on us than Chinese.........

I have read news below, is it anyhow related to CPEC?

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1126610/unprecedented-china-eases-rules-pakistans-banks/

@Kaptaan @Viper0011. What do u guys suggest, how should we protect our local businesses?


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## Genesis

somebozo said:


> What Chinese export to the world is markedly different than what they dump in the Asian countries.
> So far...anything i have encountered from China in the Pakistani market happens to be ...Cheap counterfeit junk...And that s why manufacturers are still sticking to European and American made components..the prime reason of CPEC is to bring industrial revolution..it is failing at that due to trust issues on Chinese quality...and rather will become a consumer dumping route..
> 
> I did not praise the Pakistani manufacturers either..the are addicted to protectionism rather than competition and only churn out cheap junk...actually opening of trade in high quality goods to drive our cheap manufacturers from the market is good...Pak Suzuki , Indus Corolla, Altas Honda they all need to go bankrupt..
> 
> Had Pakistani industry kept up..it would have paved the way for its own innovation..but what do Pakistani industries produce?? High priced junk..with designed not evolved since 1970s!



Ok we found the solution then close off the market, don't do anything, I'm sure the world won't move on without you.

You have not suggested one single solution, anyone can find problems in anything, but almost no one has solutions. You can talk about Chinese quality and what not, but that same product is taking us to heights only seen by the superpowers.

Do not live in delusions, who wants to invest in Pakistan, seriously. for all the talk of quality, who buys goods not made in China or established world powers.

Unless you can suddenly make 200 million of your population into skilled workers, give Pakistan the prestige it needs to be able to charge a fair price and have all the cash for R&D, you have no other options. I mean unless staying more of the same is an option.

CPEC may work or it may not, but you know what won't? Doing nothing. 



somebozo said:


> There is no Chinese company which can produce quality steel like the Germans or quality copper tube like the Americans...hence the only way to sell it is give steep discounts which are made up by government subsidies..



So that leaves only the conclusion the world is stupid and happy to be conned by us. I guess yay us.

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## raj76

Genesis said:


> The only argument you have is China cheats. That is your opinion, I say that because the end result is very different. China didn't invent subsidies and there are very strict rules regarding subsidies, I'm not saying there isn't, but if China's massive success is so tied to subsides, we wouldn't have succeeded.
> 
> Unless you are of the opinion everyone is stupid except us and we are taking advantage of everyone.


wth man u r whole export scenario was based on value addition and there are different kinds of subsidies 
1) power supplied on very cheap rates (includes staem electricity water etc)
2) Raw materials purchased by government in huge quantity gives economy of scale
3) direct indirect taxes and duty drawback on exports
4) Cheap freight corridors
etc etc and i am not saying this is the only factor in chinas success and who said about taking advantage but we have to do things which are in our interest and there any logic given by you is futile

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## Genesis

raj76 said:


> wth man u r whole export scenario was based on value addition and there are different kinds of subsidies
> 1) power supplied on very cheap rates (includes staem electricity water etc)
> 2) Raw materials purchased by government in huge quantity gives economy of scale
> 3) direct indirect taxes and duty drawback on exports
> 4) Cheap freight corridors
> etc etc and i am not saying this is the only factor in chinas success and who said about taking advantage but we have to do things which are in our interest and there any logic given by you is futile



Any country that can do that does, you're going to blame us for our accomplishments in infrastructure? When you had the same opportunity but didn't take them?

You are going to blame China for having a government that does what a government is suppose to do help it's people?

Chinese goods have massively expanded in variety over the years, and that is due to liberalization. I remember a time when state owned factories would make everyday items, they don't exist anymore. 

If it is in India's interest to be protectionist, then of course, I'm not a supporter of such initiatives as it stops progress. I mean even now I am very upset over the remaining protectionist policies of China and the slow pace of the new special economic zones.

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## grey boy 2

somebozo said:


> Actually you may be right..i mixed up something..
> 
> Of course I am right, NOT maybe right, is it too difficult to admit you get caught with your pants down spreading "FAKE" rumors regarding the so-called "Chinese ripping Pakistanis off with 18% interest rate"?
> In FACTS not only its not 18% but way below market rates period
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !


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## somebozo

Genesis said:


> Any country that can do that does, you're going to blame us for our accomplishments in infrastructure? When you had the same opportunity but didn't take them?
> 
> You are going to blame China for having a government that does what a government is suppose to do help it's people?
> 
> Chinese goods have massively expanded in variety over the years, and that is due to liberalization. I remember a time when state owned factories would make everyday items, they don't exist anymore.
> 
> If it is in India's interest to be protectionist, then of course, I'm not a supporter of such initiatives as it stops progress. I mean even now I am very upset over the remaining protectionist policies of China and the slow pace of the new special economic zones.



Protectionism does not work..when you guarantee market share to companies even if they produce junk...! Bhutto socialism destroyed Pakistan industry as they got addicted to high profits by producing junk and now the mafia protest every-time there is privatization...


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## -xXx-

Genesis said:


> The only argument you have is China cheats. That is your opinion, I say that because the end result is very different. China didn't invent subsidies and there are very strict rules regarding subsidies, I'm not saying there isn't, but if China's massive success is so tied to subsides, we wouldn't have succeeded.
> 
> Unless you are of the opinion everyone is stupid except us and we are taking advantage of everyone.



@Genesis You are looking at thing white or black. Lets discuss somewhere in between, the grey side.

Two points -

We can only open when we believe our local industry is ready to compete and can survive.
We can only open that much as we believe our local industry can handle.
Pakistan local industry or even Indian can not compete with chinese which has sheer advantage of scale. We have to build our capabilities from within. I am not even talking about quality issues here.



[Bregs] said:


> I sincerely hope that this is media news only, making a fighter rejected in MRCA is nothing short of foolishness that too after 16 yrs mrca toiling hard. americans are not going to make latest high tech jet in India easily but then why this at its end of life fighter which all the major air forces of world are retiring unlike india which is trying to modernize it by some tweeks of additional features



Kahan bhatak rahe ho janab, zara thread subject bhi check karo.

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## maximuswarrior

Pomegranate said:


> these are all propaganda theories ... CPEC will be completed no matter what .



Only those will oppose CPEC who oppose progress and development in Pakistan. No sane person in their right mind could oppose direct investment. Even if the workforce is partly foreign or return of investment goes straight to the investor. It is always a win win.

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## Robinhood Pandey

[Bregs] said:


> I sincerely hope that this is media news only, making a fighter rejected in MRCA is nothing short of foolishness that too after 16 yrs mrca toiling hard. americans are not going to make latest high tech jet in India easily but then why this at its end of life fighter which all the major air forces of world are retiring unlike india which is trying to modernize it by some tweeks of additional features

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## The Sandman

[Bregs] said:


> I sincerely hope that this is media news only, making a fighter rejected in MRCA is nothing short of foolishness that too after 16 yrs mrca toiling hard. americans are not going to make latest high tech jet in India easily but then why this at its end of life fighter which all the major air forces of world are retiring unlike india which is trying to modernize it by some tweeks of additional features


Eh you're in a wrong thread

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## [Bregs]

-xXx- said:


> @Genesis You are looking at thing white or black. Lets discuss somewhere in between, the grey side.
> 
> Two points -
> 
> We can only open when we believe our local industry is ready to compete and can survive.
> We can only open that much as we believe our local industry can handle.
> Pakistan local industry or even Indian can not compete with chinese which has sheer advantage of scale. We have to build our capabilities from within. I am not even talking about quality issues here.
> 
> 
> 
> Kahan bhatak rahe ho janab, zara thread subject bhi check karo.




lol deleted 



The Sandman said:


> Eh you're in a wrong thread



lol yes the idea of f16 made me so much charged up i posted in a whiff

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## Panther 57

somebozo said:


> Pakistan imported $7.5 billion





somebozo said:


> “None of the major trade agreements Pakistan has signed have shown a significant increase in its exports. However, imports have shown a healthy increase post-all major FTAs signed by Pakistan,” according to an assessment of trade agreements carried out by the Pakistan Business Council (PBC), an advocacy platform consisting of 47 of Pakistan’s largest businesses





somebozo said:


> The influx of Chinese steel in the country is hurting the local industry, lamented an official, adding that the widening price difference is also causing imports to rise.



FTAs have been made with the perspective of import to satisfy personal interest and not national interest. These FTAs are drafted by those who have vested interest in that country, under the umbrella of technical members.



Tripoli said:


> Pakistani interests come first.



Not Pakistani, it should be Pakistan's interest. We stand at this juncture as we have been putting some Pakistani's interest first.



somebozo said:


> How do you combat state paid subsidies for under-cost exports??



Pakistan should also subsides those areas which has potential. Right now subsidies are only to support personal industries. The day these subsidies are diverted for state interest there will not be any problem. 

Pakistan is an agriculture based country yet its products are not competitive in international market. Each year instead of increasing the yield we are having reduction in produce. Government departments allow these products to be wasted due to storage and do a lot of wheeling and dealing on grain stored in official storage again self before country.

Local industry is not ready to reduce their profit margins thus allowing import of cheaper alternative. If CPEC results in industrial failure, it will not be fault of Chinese, it will be fault of Pakistani manufacturers, bureaucrats, politicians and traders. For satisfying self interests rather then Pakistan's interest.

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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Exactly....Indians will definitely like to create controversies regarding CPEC. Irrespective of what others do......
> 
> We have consensus in Pakistan that it should be built at any cost.
> 
> We should exploit CPEC to our fullest advantage, also keeping our local businesses intact.
> 
> It depends more on us than Chinese.........
> 
> I have read news below, is it anyhow related to CPEC?
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1126610/unprecedented-china-eases-rules-pakistans-banks/
> 
> @Kaptaan @Viper0011. What do u guys suggest, how should we protect our local businesses?




What Indians got to do with this thread @somebozo is not Indian .. 

India received 55Billion $ in 2 years.. We are not dependent on one single project.. CPEC is no magic wand to turn pak into trillion $ economy.. 

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/india-received-55-billion-in-fdi-in-2-years-says-sushma-swaraj-1420955

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## shah1398

*CPEC* and *FTA* are *two totally different things*. Stop confusing and infusing both with each other. The title of the thread is totally misleading than whats actually discussed inside. The actual title dated *14 Jan,2015* is 
*FTA with China: Pakistan offers to scrap duties on 50% of products*

Thats before CPEC was even signed. And the other one is dated..

*November 27th, 2014.*

Crux: Howl, cry, dig anything out but CPEC would IN SHA ALLAH be completed come what may. Sorry to disappoint so many people out here.

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## Chinese-Dragon

This Indian guy "somebozo" is suddenly upset because China is blocking India's NSG entry. 

As for the topic, my city Hong Kong became rich by being a trading conduit between Mainland China and the rest of the world. Singapore became rich in a similar way.

The question is how you use the opportunities you are given. If you are unable to do that, then learn how to. Or go for isolationism.

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## Sheikh Rauf

I just love it when some anchor news group organizations NGO's and some Pakistanies who are High on Education trying to bring issue to confuse Nation.. like for example Pakistan is made on basis on secularism or for Islam.. we had this huge land sitting from decades now finally we going to utilize it atleast we will have infrasturcture which bring prosperity specially for locals or worst come worst they will connection to major cities or with China.. but hey some just dont like us to grow.. despite all these Pakistan will stand and come back strong..Insha'Allah.

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## Hellfire

Genesis said:


> If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.
> 
> Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you?
> 
> China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.
> 
> Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.



You have cantered off on a tangent.

It shall be foolhardy to isolate yourself under protectionism. Brixit is the latest stupidity on the block.

Please read what I have written and then understand what has been implied with it.

There is nowhere that I have said that one needs to introduce tariffs .... instead, I have lauded that China has the manufacturing based economy with over capacity which had the EU and US markets as the market (since dwindling due to reduced demands from these economies). To compete against it, the cost of finance has to be brought down ... our domestic markets that is India and Pakistan, are being fed in meager percentages in comparison to the servicing of the same by the Chinese products. The high cost of finance is rendering economically viable and competitive home grown industries from taking roots ....

The protectionism that I have implied is in terms of lowering cost of finance primarily ..... policy, infrastructure are a phased requirement for the same.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> This Indian guy "somebozo" is suddenly upset because China is blocking India's NSG entry.



LOL ... the *PDF Analyst* has analysed him as Indian after seeing the flags (Pakistani)... due to his presenting a different narrative to CPEC ..

Thanks mate, but we have enough of those 'analysts' anal-ising here without being 'analysts' suggest check things at your end. Cheers


@somebozo you may wish to go to Indian Consulate and apply for a PIO (person of Indian origin) passport seeing this analysis!!

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## mourning sage

Chinese-Dragon said:


> This Indian guy "somebozo" is suddenly upset because China is blocking India's NSG entry.
> 
> As for the topic, my city Hong Kong became rich by being a trading conduit between Mainland China and the rest of the world. Singapore became rich in a similar way.
> 
> The question is how you use the opportunities you are given. If you are unable to do that, then learn how to. Or go for isolationism.


Every single person who doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't become an Indian. CPEC is extremely importance for Pakistan, but if the correct policies are not put in place before this functions, every single Pakistani Industry will have to pack up and leave. China dumps in Pakistan even when there is no CPEC, with CPEC, our manufacturing industry is going to be destroyed, unless our leaders realize it.

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## B+ Dracula

Pakistan and CPEC consist of numbers of Rounds, You cannot judge the whole Game Changing Idea by picking its one Dimension, it is the whole different new world with numbers of Miracles that are rest to be fallen upon us if we willing to fight back by having some maturity about how Int.Business works.
.
*Why Did Loss happen in First Phase.??*
_*Proverb *:-"Wanting to be a BOXER and being afraid of getting Kicked"_
We all know there is some Positive area in the whole Plan, then comes Grey Area that needs to explore more to help meet its International Standardization.
*Positive Aspects:-*
a) Everyone talks about Positive aspect of the plan look how the Mega and super construction is going on in all over the Pakistan, that will help raise our standards and will help us our Economy grow 2% GDP every year. ....bla blah blah
b) Then, some other argument floats around us by our fellow Pakistanis....Look something is better than nothing, or it will help us increase our learning skills of International Business
c) How Chinese are competing successfully their non branded items with Branded Americans items. That Skill is unmatched if we able to learn it with Chinese
d) In all negativity there is one ray of Positive hope that will help us in LONG-TERM, it is our Geography and right of charging service tax for all major minor Instances happened in our Land. So more we contribute towards positive ambience more Instances would take place
e) Cutting Edge military technology and assisstence like JF-17,Submarines and all Other Military Cooperation falls in that category.
f) Remember this we are at the Gate of East, West, South, Middle, Center, that is Our main strength and it'll have _Domino-effect in long-term _(that slot is reserved only for us)


*Grey Area Of CPEC:-*
Grey Area needs to explore more, these are that area .....where we have all the Potential and skills to manufacture but we lack cutting edge technology that helps raise its standard worldwide.
for example, Our thriving Football Industry is taken aback by modern Footballs of China because they employed better technology that helped their football equipped with better Air Cutting technology and they also long last.​​*
Dark Side of CPEC:-*
Be prepared for the unknown which is bound to happen sooner or later. The World is heading towards a Free market concept so we have to make our world better by employing shrewd Ideas. Business is a game of Survival for the fittest. So embrace yourself for next round. It makes some sense...If you observe it closely
.
If a chance is given to us for buying the item in following Baskets, what would we do...
- Swiss watches - American Computer - French Perfumes - HQ Chinese tech items - Agriculture Items - Japanese Electronics
.
we definitely put all of our weight in favor of Pakistan when it comes to Basket of Agriculture, It depends on Consumer Perception what he perceives about Products origin, All above Product family are associated to different Country. That Phenomenon is worldwide all world consumers prefer Japanse Cars over their own, all World consumers prefer American Computers over their own

There was a time when Americans termed Japanese products as low-quality products .....then a time comes when Japanese dominated the Amercian Market and manipulated the Amercian people mind like word...."Amercian Cars" is replaced with word *Japanse Cars.*
Now Americans Prefer Toyota over Honda and General Motors in the first ladder of Cars Market than in 2nd ladder Americans prefer Honda Cars over General Motors then in Third Ladder of Person mind General Motors rings its bell.


*Conclusion:-*
If I've to conclude CPEC masterplan in few words, then I would take example of Dubai, Dubai is a Free Port inviting all world Business Tycoons to settle their affairs in Dubai and Dubai is aligned in way to assist world Entrepreneurs and Brands, I still have yet to see Made in Dubai products???...Why because they've nothing to Offer nothing to sell except their "REAL ESTATE" that include Sky Scrapper, multi architectures, flats But we on the other hand possess huge line of Product like world ancient Tourism Spots, Gandhara Civilisation, Northern Places etc

We have the big line of Product to offer to world community not merely relying on Real Estate, Agriculture,Manpower and CPEC. CPEC is the new Phenomena that is bound to happen in its right time.

" If Opportunity Offers something then Grab its whole Hand "
Opportunity is knocking at our doors, it's up to us how we contemplate ourselves with better outcome


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## barbarosa

The great road as a great wall of China, the enemy is burning to look it.


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## Devil Soul

Pakistani Market is already flooded with Chinese good, i am no expert in economics, but i think it will have/should have lil impact ....


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## R Wing

The Pakistani industry needs to learn how to compete globally --- increased protectionism doesn't help. 

But, I agree, our biggest issue is our trade deficit. Imports need to be controlled. Local manufacturing should be encouraged via JV's, etc., rather than simply "assembly."

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## Ghostwhowalks

Pomegranate said:


> nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .


The reason India is "hurt" by CPEC is because of the strategic leverage it will provide CHINA and not the benefit to PAKISTAN. The day Pakistanis understand this, there will be hope for your nation

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## yesboss

the-real-face-of-cpec-destroying-pakistani-industry

WHAT INDUSTRY .
We cant sink further then we have sunk, but then again we never seize to amaze .


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## Tripoli

yesboss said:


> the-real-face-of-cpec-destroying-pakistani-industry
> 
> WHAT INDUSTRY .
> We cant sink further then we have sunk, but then again we never seize to amaze .


We still have our textile industry.


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## arbit

somebozo said:


> The only quality manufacturing done is China is usually foreign factories under their own quality control..Even major Chinese brands like Midea and Haier only started appearing recently....and have a long way to go in improving their quality....



Midea has acquired Carrier air-conditioning. I was unaware of the fact till i went to purchase a carrier air conditioner. I already had two Hitachis for my parents house and I thought that a change in brand would be good. I just went and ordered two units of Carrier because one of its example was installed in my uncle's house since i was a kid. And it was phenomenal. Just kept on working.
Huge mistake. Absolutely pathetic quality. They have given a two tonne AC with 4" remote! Cant even hold it properly. Suckers have killed the brand. Even LG and Samsung have better ACs now. 




war&peace said:


> Good because we should better be careful in accepting any such figures without a credible source as you know anti-CPEC lobby is very active and lying and false propaganda is the first step.



@Tripoli Is it just me or does any one else find it surprising that though figures like 18% are doing the rounds. *NO ONE knows whats the real rate of interest is !!!!!!!!!!!*

I mean , Japanese got to fund our HSR and we all know at what ROI they provided. Is this ambiguity deliberate on part of Pakistan's or they are just that incompetent or worse, complicit in some sort of scam??

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## randomradio

arbit said:


> I mean , Japanese got to fund our HSR and we all know at what ROI they provided. Is this ambiguity deliberate on part of Pakistan's or they are just that incompetent or worse, complicit in some sort of scam??



The Japanese are good for loans. I mean, who gives such large sums at 0.1%.


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## manojb

What industry are we talking about? 
Pakistan has no major industry that China has, hm may be leather industry, next world cup football may be mfgd in China other than that pak has nothing to offer, accept land. So fear not. As many posted this is nonsense article

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## Tripoli

manojb said:


> What industry are we talking about?
> Pakistan has no major industry that China has, hm may be leather industry, next world cup football may be mfgd in China other than that pak has nothing to offer, accept land. So fear not. As many posted this is nonsense article


Thanks for the harsh truth. But at least its better than nothing. Oh and you missed the textile industry.

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## Mrc

So the indians where right all the time...

Omg ...china is our enemy .....so is islam....they are out to destroy us....

Our real friends are india...america and israel....

Get serious guys

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## Tripoli

arbit said:


> Midea has acquired Carrier air-conditioning. I was unaware of the fact till i went to purchase a carrier air conditioner. I already had two Hitachis for my parents house and I thought that a change in brand would be good. I just went and ordered two units of Carrier because one of its example was installed in my uncle's house since i was a kid. And it was phenomenal. Just kept on working.
> Huge mistake. Absolutely pathetic quality. They have given a two tonne AC with 4" remote! Cant even hold it properly. Suckers have killed the brand. Even LG and Samsung have better ACs now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Tripoli Is it just me or does any one else find it surprising that though figures like 18% are doing the rounds. *NO ONE knows whats the real rate of interest is !!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> I mean , Japanese got to fund our HSR and we all know at what ROI they provided. Is this ambiguity deliberate on part of Pakistan's or they are just that incompetent or worse, complicit in some sort of scam??


It is obviously not 18 percent. LOL

*This should give you an idea. The loans aren't too bad but they aren't good either.*
*Loans to the Pakistani Government[edit]*
Approximately $11 billion worth of infrastructure projects being developed by the Pakistani government will be financed by concessionary loans, with composite interest rates of 1.6%,[183] after Pakistan successfully lobbied the Chinese government to reduce interest rates from an initial 3%.[184] The loans are subsidised by the government of China, and are to be dispersed by the Exim Bank of Chinaand theChina Development Bank. For comparison, loans for previous Pakistani infrastructure projects financed by the World Bank carried an interest rate between 5% and 8.5%,[185] while interest rates on market loans approach 12%.[186]

The loan money would be used to finance projects which are planned and executed by the Pakistani government. Portions of the approximately $6.6 billion[74] Karachi–Lahore Motorway are already under construction.[187] The $2.9 billion phase which will connect the city of Multan to the city of Sukkur over a distance of 392 kilometres has also been approved,[188] with 90% of costs to be financed by the Chinese government at concessional interest rates, while the remaining 10% is to be financed by the Public Sector Development Programme of the Pakistani government.[189] In May 2016, the $2.9 billion loan were given final approvals required prior to disbursement of the funds were given by the Government of the People's Republic of China on May 4, 2016, and will be concessional loans with an interest rate of 2.0%.[63] The National Highway Authority of Pakistan reported that contractors arrived on site soon after the loan received final approval.[63]

The China Development Bank will finance the $920 million towards the cost of reconstruction of the 487 kilometer portion of the Karakoram Highway between Burhan and Raikot.[190][191] An addition $1.26 billion will be lent by the China Exim Bank for the construction of the Havelian to Thakot portion of this 487 kilometer stretch of roadway,[61][192] to be dispersed as low-interest rate concessional loans.[63]

The long-planned 27.1 km long $1.6 billion Orange Line of the Lahore Metro is regarded as a commercial project project,[178] and does not qualify for the Exim Bank's 1.6% interest rate. It will instead by financed at a 2.4% interest rate[129] after China agreed to reduce interest rates from an originally planned rate of 3.4%.[193]

The $44 million Pakistan-China Fiber Optic Project, a 820 km long fibre optic wire connecting Pakistan and China, will be constructed using concessionary loans at an interest rate of 2%, rather than the 1.6% rate applied to other projects.[194]

*Interest-free loans for Gwadar projects[edit]*
The government of China in August 2015 announced that concessionary loans for several projects in Gwadar totalling $757 million would be converted 0% interest loans.[195] The projects which are now to financed by the 0% interest loans include: the construction of the $140 million Eastbay Expressway project, installation of breakwaters in Gwadar which will cost $130 million, a $360 million coal power plant in Gwadar, a $27 million project to dredge berths in Gwadar harbour, and a $100 million 300-bed hospital in Gwadar.[196] Pakistan will only repay the principle on these loans.

In September 2015, the government of China also announced that the $230 million Gwadar International Airport project would no longer be financed by loans, but would instead be constructed by grants which the government of Pakistan will not be required to repay.[184]

*Loans to private consortia[edit]*
$15.5 billion worth of energy projects are to be constructed by joint Chinese-Pakistani firms, rather than by the governments of either China or Pakistan. The Exim Bank of China will finance those investments at 5–6% interest rates, while the government of Pakistan will be contractually obliged to purchase electricity from those firms at pre-negotiated rates.[138]

As an example, the 1,223MW Balloki Power Plant does not fall under the concessionary loan rate of 1.6%, as the project is not being developed by the Pakistani government. Instead, it is considered to be a private sector investment as its construction will be undertaken by a consortium of Harbin Electric and Habib Rafiq Limited after they successfully bid against international competitors.[197] Chinese state-owned banks will provide loans to the consortium that are subsidised by the Chinese government. In the case of the Balloki Power Plant, state-owned banks will finance the project at an interest rate of 5%,[198] while the Pakistani government will purchase electricity at the lowest bid rate of 7.973 cents per unit.[197]

*Asian Development Bank assistance[edit]*
While the E-35 expressway is considered to be a crucial part of the route between Gwadar and China, the E35 will not be financed by CPEC funds. The project will instead be financed by the Asian Development Bank.[108]

The N70 project is not officially a part of CPEC but will connect the CPEC's Western Alignment to the Karachi-Lahore Motorway at Multan. The project will be financed as part of a $195 million package by the Asian Development Bank announced in May 2015 to upgrade theN70 National Highway and N50 National Highway.[100] In January 2016, The United Kingdom's Department for International Developmentannounced a $72.4 million grant to Pakistan for roadway improvements in the province of Balochistan, thereby reducing the total Asian Development Bank loan from $195 million to $122.6 million.[199]

The M-4 Motorway between Faisalabad and Multan is not to be financed by the Chinese government as part of CPEC, but will instead be the first infrastructure project partially financed by the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and will be co-financed along with the Asian Development Bank for a total of approximately $275 million.[84] Portions of the project will also be funded by a $90.7 million grant announced in October 2015 by the government of the United Kingdom towards the construction of the Gojra-Shorkot section of the M4 Motorway project.[107]


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## arbit

Tripoli said:


> It is obviously not 18 percent. LOL
> 
> *This should give you an idea. The loans aren't too bad but they aren't good either.*
> *Loans to the Pakistani Government[edit]*
> Approximately $11 billion worth of infrastructure projects being developed by the Pakistani government will be financed by concessionary loans, with composite interest rates of 1.6%,[183] after Pakistan successfully lobbied the Chinese government to reduce interest rates from an initial 3%.[184] The loans are subsidised by the government of China, and are to be dispersed by the Exim Bank of Chinaand theChina Development Bank. For comparison, loans for previous Pakistani infrastructure projects financed by the World Bank carried an interest rate between 5% and 8.5%,[185] while interest rates on market loans approach 12%.[186]
> 
> The loan money would be used to finance projects which are planned and executed by the Pakistani government. Portions of the approximately $6.6 billion[74] Karachi–Lahore Motorway are already under construction.[187] The $2.9 billion phase which will connect the city of Multan to the city of Sukkur over a distance of 392 kilometres has also been approved,[188] with 90% of costs to be financed by the Chinese government at concessional interest rates, while the remaining 10% is to be financed by the Public Sector Development Programme of the Pakistani government.[189] In May 2016, the $2.9 billion loan were given final approvals required prior to disbursement of the funds were given by the Government of the People's Republic of China on May 4, 2016, and will be concessional loans with an interest rate of 2.0%.[63] The National Highway Authority of Pakistan reported that contractors arrived on site soon after the loan received final approval.[63]
> 
> The China Development Bank will finance the $920 million towards the cost of reconstruction of the 487 kilometer portion of the Karakoram Highway between Burhan and Raikot.[190][191] An addition $1.26 billion will be lent by the China Exim Bank for the construction of the Havelian to Thakot portion of this 487 kilometer stretch of roadway,[61][192] to be dispersed as low-interest rate concessional loans.[63]
> 
> The long-planned 27.1 km long $1.6 billion Orange Line of the Lahore Metro is regarded as a commercial project project,[178] and does not qualify for the Exim Bank's 1.6% interest rate. It will instead by financed at a 2.4% interest rate[129] after China agreed to reduce interest rates from an originally planned rate of 3.4%.[193]
> 
> The $44 million Pakistan-China Fiber Optic Project, a 820 km long fibre optic wire connecting Pakistan and China, will be constructed using concessionary loans at an interest rate of 2%, rather than the 1.6% rate applied to other projects.[194]
> 
> *Interest-free loans for Gwadar projects[edit]*
> The government of China in August 2015 announced that concessionary loans for several projects in Gwadar totalling $757 million would be converted 0% interest loans.[195] The projects which are now to financed by the 0% interest loans include: the construction of the $140 million Eastbay Expressway project, installation of breakwaters in Gwadar which will cost $130 million, a $360 million coal power plant in Gwadar, a $27 million project to dredge berths in Gwadar harbour, and a $100 million 300-bed hospital in Gwadar.[196] Pakistan will only repay the principle on these loans.
> 
> In September 2015, the government of China also announced that the $230 million Gwadar International Airport project would no longer be financed by loans, but would instead be constructed by grants which the government of Pakistan will not be required to repay.[184]
> 
> *Loans to private consortia[edit]*
> $15.5 billion worth of energy projects are to be constructed by joint Chinese-Pakistani firms, rather than by the governments of either China or Pakistan. The Exim Bank of China will finance those investments at 5–6% interest rates, while the government of Pakistan will be contractually obliged to purchase electricity from those firms at pre-negotiated rates.[138]
> 
> As an example, the 1,223MW Balloki Power Plant does not fall under the concessionary loan rate of 1.6%, as the project is not being developed by the Pakistani government. Instead, it is considered to be a private sector investment as its construction will be undertaken by a consortium of Harbin Electric and Habib Rafiq Limited after they successfully bid against international competitors.[197] Chinese state-owned banks will provide loans to the consortium that are subsidised by the Chinese government. In the case of the Balloki Power Plant, state-owned banks will finance the project at an interest rate of 5%,[198] while the Pakistani government will purchase electricity at the lowest bid rate of 7.973 cents per unit.[197]
> 
> *Asian Development Bank assistance[edit]*
> While the E-35 expressway is considered to be a crucial part of the route between Gwadar and China, the E35 will not be financed by CPEC funds. The project will instead be financed by the Asian Development Bank.[108]
> 
> The N70 project is not officially a part of CPEC but will connect the CPEC's Western Alignment to the Karachi-Lahore Motorway at Multan. The project will be financed as part of a $195 million package by the Asian Development Bank announced in May 2015 to upgrade theN70 National Highway and N50 National Highway.[100] In January 2016, The United Kingdom's Department for International Developmentannounced a $72.4 million grant to Pakistan for roadway improvements in the province of Balochistan, thereby reducing the total Asian Development Bank loan from $195 million to $122.6 million.[199]
> 
> The M-4 Motorway between Faisalabad and Multan is not to be financed by the Chinese government as part of CPEC, but will instead be the first infrastructure project partially financed by the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and will be co-financed along with the Asian Development Bank for a total of approximately $275 million.[84] Portions of the project will also be funded by a $90.7 million grant announced in October 2015 by the government of the United Kingdom towards the construction of the Gojra-Shorkot section of the M4 Motorway project.[107]



 Ofcourse it won't be 18%.
Wikipedia is an open source of information, is there any other official source, a bulletin by government etc., a statement by ministry perhaps? Anything which will bring it out of the purview of speculation.

@randomradio absolutely. Whether 0.1 or 1.0. The issue is transparency and easy flow of credible information. Which in CPC case is conspicuously missing.


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## Tripoli

arbit said:


> Ofcourse it won't be 18%.
> Wikipedia is an open source of information, is there any other official source, a bulletin by government etc., a statement by ministry perhaps? Anything which will bring it out of the purview of speculation.


There isn't any such thing to my knowledge.

There would be nothing wrong with this CPEC project if only Pakistan had patriotic, sincere leaders.
If this project is played correctly(maximized benefits and reduced losses) it could bring great benefits to Pakistan and if it is played wrong it can destroy Pakistan( economically and socially)


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## arbit

Tripoli said:


> There isn't any such thing to my knowledge.
> 
> There would be nothing wrong with this CPEC project if only Pakistan had patriotic, sincere leaders.
> If this project is played correctly(maximized benefits and reduced losses) it could bring great benefits to Pakistan and if it is played wrong it can destroy Pakistan( economically and socially)



I understand. Corrupt leaders have been the bane of both our countries for last many decades. We got a good one now, hopefully you will get yours as well. fingers crossed. 

And this CPEC business is fishy my friend. To prosper you need to ship stuff OUT from Pakistan, so take care to not become the dumping ground of cheap chinese stuff. Chinese have been parasitic in nature elsewhere.

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## Tripoli

arbit said:


> I understand. Corrupt leaders have been the bane of both our countries for last many decades. We got a good one now, hopefully you will get yours as well. fingers crossed.
> 
> And this CPEC business is fishy my friend. To prosper you need to ship stuff OUT from Pakistan, so take care to not become the dumping ground of cheap chinese stuff. Chinese have been parasitic in nature elsewhere.


Completely agree. Instead of letting the Chinese dump, Pakistan should turn itself into a highway of Chinese goods going into the Arabian sea while at the same time building up its own domestic industry. That's what I would ideally want but it is easier said than done.


I don't think Pakistan will be getting a good leader. Some nations just don't deserve them.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Exactly....Indians will definitely like to create controversies regarding CPEC. Irrespective of what others do......
> 
> We have consensus in Pakistan that it should be built at any cost.
> 
> We should exploit CPEC to our fullest advantage, also keeping our local businesses intact.
> 
> It depends more on us than Chinese.........
> 
> I have read news below, is it anyhow related to CPEC?
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1126610/unprecedented-china-eases-rules-pakistans-banks/
> 
> @Kaptaan @Viper0011. What do u guys suggest, how should we protect our local businesses?


Aziz Kardeshim, I have the following observations:

CPEC is a strategic project to cater for both military and economic power projections. At the center is Pak. Now weak Pak isn't in the Chinese interest since a strong Pak will be the knob to contain India by channeling all of her obsessive compulsive disorders vis-a-vis Pak. Instead of India containng China, China contains India via supporting a growing and strong Pak. Clever move. Look at NSG example.
China wants to be like the USA economy wise, which is the ultimate goal of the US businesses too to make the next level of profits. It means financial markets, innovation, services, high end research and products, and advanced consumer market. But unlike the USA she doesn't want to lose the "global factory and supply chain" status. Hence relatively cheap labor in Pak gets into picture. In the yellow race culture loyalty runs supreme and memory is sharp. They may be bossy and pushy but looks after you. Pak fits these trust and loyalty bills perfectly with a good track record.
So far association with China has proved to be good for Pak be it strategic balance or a domestic fighter jet. So, future associations will bring good for Paks too inshaAllah by using Newton's method of induction - if something is true for n=1, and you can prove it to be true for n=2, then it can be projected that it is true for n=3,4,..etc.
Now Pak has to come up with her own story vis-a-vis CPEC. With such a long supply chain and transportation channel at your disposal I don't think it's tough. What you need to do is to roll the wheel of your business acumen and see wonders coming. I am pretty sure many folks from around the world are already eying CPEC for such opportunities. Business world is dynamic with some industries dying and others being born in a continuous fashion. To stick to status quo is like death.

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## GURU DUTT

Tripoli said:


> Completely agree. Instead of letting the Chinese dump, Pakistan should turn itself into a highway of Chinese goods going into the Arabian sea while at the same time building up its own domestic industry. That's what I would ideally want but it is easier said than done.
> 
> 
> I don't think Pakistan will be getting a good leader. Some nations just don't deserve them.


but that could have olny happened if pakistan from the start had invested that ammount from its own pocket or even took lone from IMF/WB and made it itself by its own initiative but instead your militarry , beurocratic and political elite simply took the easier way and just leasted the land and gave chinese the full rights to make and oprate the corridoar with obligation only to give it security now you can speculate what will be china doing as a smart & shrewd buisnessman


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## arbit

Tripoli said:


> Completely agree. Instead of letting the Chinese dump, Pakistan should turn itself into a highway of Chinese goods going into the Arabian sea while at the same time building up its own domestic industry. That's what I would ideally want but it is easier said than done.
> 
> 
> I don't think Pakistan will be getting a good leader. Some nations just don't deserve them.



A little off topic but i think Benazir was a terrific leader. Pakistan was doing well till her time so she got complacent and thought a few dollars here and there won't make a difference to the overall Pakistan economy and so she turned blind eye to the corruption of a few.
This probably is the reason for her image as a corrupt leader. But she was inspirational, what Nawaz intends to do but can't, she could have implemented on the ground. She would have also injected some dynamism into the regional politics. Its a shame she was assassinated. I was excited to see her enter politics again.
Also she could deal with your partners on an equal footing without being drowned in a mountain of gratitude, which seems to be the case with current Pakistan's leadership.
But I wish you guys well (don't be shocked  ) Good luck.

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## Syed Hussain

At both Gawadar and CPEC(China 'Punjab' Economic Corridor), Pakistan will only win military support from China up to a level of direct intervention on the name of "saving its vital assets", for our Economy it doesn't have any trump card as we have literally sold these projects to China to be exploited as they wish.

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## GURU DUTT

Syed Hussain said:


> At both Gawadar and CPEC(China 'Punjab' Economic Corridor), Pakistan will only win military support from China up to a level of direct intervention on the name of "saving its vital assets", for our Economy it doesn't have any trump card as we have literally sold these projects to China to be exploited as they wish.


now thats is the most sane post on the thread by a pakistani yet ... congrats & cheers mate

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## PaklovesTurkiye

danger007 said:


> What Indians got to do with this thread @somebozo is not Indian ..
> 
> India received 55Billion $ in 2 years.. We are not dependent on one single project.. CPEC is no magic wand to turn pak into trillion $ economy..
> 
> http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/india-received-55-billion-in-fdi-in-2-years-says-sushma-swaraj-1420955



Yes Somebozo is not indian but Indians (not pointing u) seems to worry too much about CPEC and its negative impact on Pakistan. This is the puzzle i m still unable to solve...Indians oppose this project and they will try to create misunderstanding regarding CPEC. This is no brainer to find out.

India received 55 billion. Did i ask you about how much India received? Then why showing off and being over smart. Just because you hear too much about CPEC, doesn't mean we r relying on solely on this project. This project is damn unique and significant. We r just about to make history. One Belt One Road is going to involve a lot of countries. This node is very important too. 

Who said CPEC is Aladin ka Chiragh? We are just excited about it and do talk about its positive and negative. We will take care of it. CPEC will lay down the foundation of our success. Power supply, dams, railways are going to be upgraded. Chinese are master in infrastructure development. You don't need to compare India with Pakistan. We r going to have Chinese built infra, a damn good one. The increased cooperation and economic integration with more than One billion people having economy of trillions of dollars is not a JOKE. Thats why we are very ambitious about it. The whole world has eyes on it. Iran, UK, US, China, Middle East. U name it. If all goes as it is planned, we will literally change the whole dynamics of South Asia. CARS may use Gwadar port. Western China will definitely going to use Gwadar. Iran is very serious about joining Gwadar too. Whole region is going to have connectivity with each other.


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## dray

Genesis said:


> If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.
> 
> Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you?
> 
> China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.
> 
> Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.



Uh..China very much practices protectionism where it sees fit. And the trend is rather increasing in recent years.



somebozo said:


> *Regardless of the interest rate it is clear that the entire amount is a loan and not an investment..*countries promote foreign investments because it promotes economic growth and employment..loans do not promote growth they always leave your economy with a higher value...a loan even at 1% interest is less favorable over investment. Therefore it comes at a shameless expense to the nation that we are being forced to accept Chinese labor for the project..it is just a clever way of routing money back into the Chinese economy while we are left with the responsibility of returning it...the wages paid to Chinese workers do not count!



As @dadeechi rightly pointed out in another thread, that was a slick move by China, since it's a loan and not an investment, so with an average interest rate of even 2% on $46 billion, the annual interest for Pakistan would be a whooping $920 million, plus you have to pay back the principal also. Now it becomes Pakistan's responsibility to ensure that China uses that route enough for it to service the loan. And in any future negotiation on transit fee and other terms & conditions; it is China who would have the upper hand. Because China has alternative routes and deep pocket to stop using that route for some period or reduce traffic to pressurize Pakistan, but Pakistan has no such leverage, it has to service the fixed burden of loan from the transit fee.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> This Indian guy "somebozo" is suddenly upset because China is blocking India's NSG entry.



Buddy, you are here for long enough to know that somebozo is not an Indian.



Mrc said:


> So the indians where right all the time...
> 
> Omg ...china is our enemy .....so is islam....they are out to destroy us....
> 
> *Our real friends are india...america* and israel....
> 
> Get serious guys



Since the creation of Pakistan America is the one country that helped Pakistan the most, and you two are still allies. Only in recent years the relationship has soured, but then Pakistan was playing double game with America on WoT.

About India, no we are not your friend, but the day we become real friends, if ever, the relationship will be far more beneficial to Pakistan than any other friend Pakistan ever had.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Syed Hussain said:


> At both Gawadar and CPEC(China 'Punjab' Economic Corridor), Pakistan will only win military support from China up to a level of direct intervention on the name of "saving its vital assets", for our Economy it doesn't have any trump card as we have literally sold these projects to China to be exploited as they wish.



 .......... I m Karachiite, (Descendant of Immigrant) and no way in hell this project is Punjab related. Stop spewing propaganda. 



HAKIKAT said:


> Aziz Kardeshim, I have the following observations:
> 
> CPEC is a strategic project to cater for both military and economic power projections. At the center is Pak. Now weak Pak isn't in the Chinese interest since a strong Pak will be the knob to contain India by channeling all of her obsessive compulsive disorders vis-a-vis Pak. Instead of India containng China, China contains India via supporting a growing and strong Pak. Clever move. Look at NSG example.
> China wants to be like the USA economy wise, which is the ultimate goal of the US businesses too to make the next level of profits. It means financial markets, innovation, services, high end research and products, and advanced consumer market. But unlike the USA she doesn't want to lose the "global factory and supply chain" status. Hence relatively cheap labor in Pak gets into picture. In the yellow race culture loyalty runs supreme and memory is sharp. They may be bossy and pushy but looks after you. Pak fits these trust and loyalty bills perfectly with a good track record.
> So far association with China has proved to be good for Pak be it strategic balance or a domestic fighter jet. So, future associations will bring good for Paks too inshaAllah by using Newton's method of induction - if something is true for n=1, and you can prove it to be true for n=2, then it can be projected that it is true for n=3,4,..etc.
> Now Pak has to come up with her own story vis-a-vis CPEC. With such a long supply chain and transportation channel at your disposal I don't think it's tough. What you need to do is to roll the wheel of your business acumen and see wonders coming. I am pretty sure many folks from around the world are already eying CPEC for such opportunities. Business world is dynamic with some industries dying and others being born in a continuous fashion. To stick to status quo is like death.



Great observation. I hope that we will successfully sail the boat to its real destination. In Sha Allah.

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## Tangent123

Pomegranate said:


> nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .


..U just said that hurting India is pakistant's national interest.
..but I'm sure not many people think like u...or


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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Yes Somebozo is not indian but Indians (not pointing u) seems to worry too much about CPEC and its negative impact on Pakistan. This is the puzzle i m still unable to solve...Indians oppose this project and they will try to create misunderstanding regarding CPEC. This is no brainer to find out.
> 
> India received 55 billion. Did i ask you about how much India received? Then why showing off and being over smart. Just because you hear too much about CPEC, doesn't mean we r relying on solely on this project. This project is damn unique and significant. We r just about to make history. One Belt One Road is going to involve a lot of countries. This node is very important too.
> 
> Who said CPEC is Aladin ka Chiragh? We are just excited about it and do talk about its positive and negative. We will take care of it. CPEC will lay down the foundation of our success. Power supply, dams, railways are going to be upgraded. Chinese are master in infrastructure development. You don't need to compare India with Pakistan. We r going to have Chinese built infra, a damn good one. The increased cooperation and economic integration with more than One billion people having economy of trillions of dollars is not a JOKE. Thats why we are very ambitious about it. The whole world has eyes on it. Iran, UK, US, China, Middle East. U name it. If all goes as it is planned, we will literally change the whole dynamics of South Asia. CARS may use Gwadar port. Western China will definitely going to use Gwadar. Iran is very serious about joining Gwadar too. Whole region is going to have connectivity with each other.



Relying on one country solely will be foolishness... I came across many project that chinese took up, Majority of labour and all key positions will be chinese only.. building infra is key term for any economy, but the point is under what terms?? This is not FDI but a loan . 

an example don't think otherwise...

And to those of you who don't know the type of job these numerous Chinese construction firms do in Africa, Chinese projects don't often last long. A hospital in Luanda, the capital of Angola, was opened with great fanfare but cracks appeared in the walls within a few months and it soon closed. The Chinese-built road from Lusaka, Zambia's capital, to Chirundu, 130km (81 miles) to the south-east, was quickly swept away by rains. I can go on and on.

http://www.africaw.com/africa-the-china-owned-continent

For National Road 8, “the quality is as weak as we’ve seen, but that’s because they hadn’t understood the [weather conditions] here in Cambodia.”

According to him, National Road 8’s rehabilitation was funded with a $71 million loan from a Chinese state-owned bank.

Construction, which began in 2008 and finished in 2012, was undertaken by Shanghai Construction (Group) General Company, a Chinese company, which has been involved in a slew of infrastructure projects in the country.


http://m.phnompenhpost.com/real-estate/national-roads-built-chinese-aid-under-fire


If pak do not have quality control then the projects will cost you dearly ..

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## Chinese-Dragon

danger007 said:


> Relying on one country solely will be foolishness... I came across many project that chinese took up, Majority of labour and all key positions will be chinese only.. building infra is key term for any economy, but the point is under what terms?? This is not FDI but a loan to be paid back @18%....
> 
> an example don't think otherwise...
> 
> And to those of you who don't know the type of job these numerous Chinese construction firms do in Africa, Chinese projects don't often last long. A hospital in Luanda, the capital of Angola, was opened with great fanfare but cracks appeared in the walls within a few months and it soon closed. The Chinese-built road from Lusaka, Zambia's capital, to Chirundu, 130km (81 miles) to the south-east, was quickly swept away by rains. I can go on and on.
> 
> http://www.africaw.com/africa-the-china-owned-continent
> 
> For National Road 8, “the quality is as weak as we’ve seen, but that’s because they hadn’t understood the [weather conditions] here in Cambodia.”
> 
> According to him, National Road 8’s rehabilitation was funded with a $71 million loan from a Chinese state-owned bank.
> 
> Construction, which began in 2008 and finished in 2012, was undertaken by Shanghai Construction (Group) General Company, a Chinese company, which has been involved in a slew of infrastructure projects in the country.
> 
> 
> http://m.phnompenhpost.com/real-estate/national-roads-built-chinese-aid-under-fire
> 
> 
> If pak do not have quality control then the projects will cost you dearly ..



So why is India ordering trains and railways from China, that carry millions of Indian people to work every day?

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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So why is India ordering trains and railways from China, that carry millions of Indian people to work every day?




I mentioned terms and conditions,quality control.. please check it..


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## PaklovesTurkiye

danger007 said:


> Relying on one country solely will be foolishness... I came across many project that chinese took up, Majority of labour and all key positions will be chinese only.. building infra is key term for any economy, but the point is under what terms?? This is not FDI but a loan to be paid back @18%....
> 
> an example don't think otherwise...
> 
> And to those of you who don't know the type of job these numerous Chinese construction firms do in Africa, Chinese projects don't often last long. A hospital in Luanda, the capital of Angola, was opened with great fanfare but cracks appeared in the walls within a few months and it soon closed. The Chinese-built road from Lusaka, Zambia's capital, to Chirundu, 130km (81 miles) to the south-east, was quickly swept away by rains. I can go on and on.
> 
> http://www.africaw.com/africa-the-china-owned-continent
> 
> For National Road 8, “the quality is as weak as we’ve seen, but that’s because they hadn’t understood the [weather conditions] here in Cambodia.”
> 
> According to him, National Road 8’s rehabilitation was funded with a $71 million loan from a Chinese state-owned bank.
> 
> Construction, which began in 2008 and finished in 2012, was undertaken by Shanghai Construction (Group) General Company, a Chinese company, which has been involved in a slew of infrastructure projects in the country.
> 
> 
> http://m.phnompenhpost.com/real-estate/national-roads-built-chinese-aid-under-fire
> 
> 
> If pak do not have quality control then the projects will cost you dearly ..



I don't know much about economics, u seems to know more than me but i m still unable to understand from where u get this number 18%. Pakistanis, over here, are disagreeing with it. Pakistan, then should avoid to give contracts to those Chinese companies who do not have good credentials. Any company from any country can do fraud. It is wrong to tar all Chinese companies with same brush. Any company from any country can do fraud and they do too. Chinese are not exception. But it is wrong to assume every Chinese company coming over here will exploit and do fraud. It is non sense. I said it is up to us. Pakistanis need to decide, i hope we take correct course. Project is unique and big and requires exceptional care and attention.

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## Chinese-Dragon

danger007 said:


> I mentioned terms and conditions,quality control.. please check it..



Do you have any proof of this 18% interest rate? Or is it just BS?


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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do you have any proof of this 18% interest rate? Or is it just BS?




am lil mistaken..

i misread it .. edited

China is making investments on which Pakistan has given sovereign guarantee of 18% return, meaning on investment of Rs 100 Pakistan will pay them back Rs 118 (that's in Compounded interest). In some cases its about 27.2 %.

Example :-
Sinosure is charging a fee of 7pc for debt servicing, which will be added to the capital cost of a project. For instance, the capital cost of a 660MW project at Port Qasim is $767.9m. But it goes up to $956.1m by adding Sinosure’s fee of $63.9m, its financing fee and charges of $21m, and interest during construction of $72.8m; a 27.2pc return on equity is guaranteed. Ironically, interest during construction is allowed at the rate of 33.33pc for the first year; 33.33pc for the second; 13.33pc for the third; and 20pc for the fourth year.

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## SrNair

somebozo said:


> KARACHI:
> Developing countries sign free trade agreements (FTAs) with trading partners mainly to increase exports and create better-paying jobs at home.
> 
> In Pakistan’s case, however, tariff revisions under FTAs have clearly not worked in its favour, numbers show. Pakistan has signed trade agreements with five countries, namely China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Mauritius.
> 
> “None of the major trade agreements Pakistan has signed have shown a significant increase in its exports. However, imports have shown a healthy increase post-all major FTAs signed by Pakistan,” according to an assessment of trade agreements carried out by the Pakistan Business Council (PBC), an advocacy platform consisting of 47 of Pakistan’s largest businesses.
> 
> Pakistan had a trade deficit with China, Malaysia and Indonesia when it signed FTAs with them in 2006, 2008 and 2013, respectively. Its trade balance was still in negative with these countries at the end of 2014, data shows.
> 
> However, Pakistan has managed to maintain a trade surplus – albeit a small one – with Sri Lanka ($217 million) and Mauritius ($21.3 million) in post-FTA years. With the exception of China, none of these countries was among Pakistan’s top-five import and/or export partners at the end of 2014. As for China, it became Pakistan’s largest import partner, leaving behind Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, in the post-FTA years.
> 
> Read: PBC’s report on Pakistan-Indonesia trade
> 
> China’s share in Pakistan’s imports was less than 12% in 2009, but increased to more than one-fifth of its total imports at the end of 2014. China held a 5.6% share in Pakistan’s exports in 2009, which increased to 9.1% in 2014.
> 
> *So what does the change show?*
> 
> In its 2013 study on China-Pakistan trade partnership in the post-FTA era, the PBC found that Pakistan “appeared to have failed to benefit fully” from the agreement. The study said it was due to either Pakistani businesses were not part of the FTA negotiations or the Pakistani negotiators simply lacked the requisite information to negotiate the agreement.
> 
> In a separate assessment of the Malaysia-Pakistan FTA that was published earlier this week, PBC researchers noted that Pakistan’s exports to Malaysia have only “marginally increased” since the implementation of the FTA back in 2008.
> 
> “One reason for this failure lies in the fact that the items which have the highest potential for exports are either not part of Malaysia’s concession list or (where they are a part) competitors enjoy better tariff rates than Pakistan,” they said. Contrarily, Malaysia’s FTAs with India and China have tariffs that are lower than those in its FTA with Pakistan, putting Pakistani exports at a clear disadvantage.
> 
> Trade statistics paint a similarly gloomy picture in the case of Indonesia as well. Pakistan’s exports to Indonesia in 2014 were less than its exports in the preceding year, although Pakistan had signed a preferential trade agreement (PTA) with Indonesia in 2013.
> 
> In contrast, Indonesia’s exports to Pakistan surged 74.4% over the same year. Pakistan granted it duty preference for palm oil imports, doubling their value to $1.4 billion in a year. The PBC believes Pakistan failed to extract “any significant concessions” from its PTA with Indonesia.
> 
> One of the reasons Pakistan’s various trade agreements have not achieved the desired results is the lack of involvement of the Pakistani business community in the drafting of such agreements, according to the PBC.
> 
> Read: Data-sharing system planned to tackle misreporting
> 
> It says many local manufacturers and exporters are simply unaware of the exportable items that are part of the zero per cent tariff track in these FTAs.
> 
> “The government needs to ensure that the focus (in FTAs) is not only on concessions for agriculture-based exports, but that the value-added manufacturing sector has access to markets that allow it to develop critical mass,” it added.
> 
> The writer is a staff correspondent
> 
> _Published in The Express Tribune, August 10th, 2015._
> 
> _Like __Business on Facebook_, _follow __@TribuneBiz__ on Twitter to stay informed and join in the conversation._
> 
> KARACHI:
> The influx of Chinese steel in the country is hurting the local industry, lamented an official, adding that the widening price difference is also causing imports to rise.
> 
> Apart from the private sector, Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM) – the only integrated steel mill in Pakistan – is also facing a stiff challenge due to Chinese imports.
> 
> “The PSM is finding it very difficult to compete in the current situation because the cheap imported steel is hurting its market just because of the price difference,” a PSM official told _The Express Tribune._
> 
> Although, PSM is not producing billets – a thick steel bar that serves as a basic raw-material for different steel products – these days, it has been facing problems in selling its products owing to its higher cost of production.
> 
> According to industry officials, since January, over 100,000 tons of steel billets and hot-rolled coils have been imported from China at prices that are dramatically decreasing month after month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is due to the difference of over Rs6,000 between locally produced billets and the imported ones. Current steel billet prices of PSM range between Rs67,000-68,000 per ton including sales tax while the price of Chinese billets after duties and taxes at today’s prices are in the range of Rs60,000-62,000.
> 
> As the Chinese economy slows down and domestic consumption drops, the world’s largest steel manufacturing nation has a massive oversupply problem. Over the past few months, cheap steel products from China have flooded the domestic markets due to subsidies on electricity and rebates on exports provided by the Chinese government to manufacturers.
> 
> Local steel makers say that Chinese manufacturers have resorted to dump their steel products in other countries by relying on government subsidies, tariff concessions through Free Trade Agreement (FTA) and marginal cost pricing mechanisms.
> 
> The two main products manufactured by PSM are steel billets and steel hot rolled coils. In a commodity product such as steel billets and coils, margins are usually thin and with price differentials of Rs6,000 per ton, PSM is facing problems in finding buyers.
> 
> Since cheap Chinese steel imports are poised to win a larger market share, the demand for PSM products is expected to decline – leaving its management once again with cash flow issues and having to go back to the begging bowl for further handouts from the government.
> 
> Countries such as Egypt, Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, US and India have countered this threat through imposing counter-veiling duties, regulatory duties and other non-tariff barriers to protect their local steel industry. Due to concessions given through the Free Trade Agreement and mis-declaration of non-alloy steel goods as alloy steel, the appropriate tariff barriers are not in place to protect PSM and the rest of Pakistan’s steel industry.
> 
> _Published in The Express Tribune, November 27th, 2014._



Donot depend Chinese steel imports .Even UK couldnt stand against the cheaper Chinese steel import .
They will literally wipe out entire Pak steel industry.



That Guy said:


> Generally speaking, FTAs have never been good for Pakistan. They've almost always favored the other nations, more than they have Pakistani industries, which is one of the reasons behind the huge export deficit.



I think this is either due to lack of understanding of Pak negotiators or due to their hesitation of involving their industry in negotiation or discussion.


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## Chinese-Dragon

danger007 said:


> am lil mistaken..
> 
> i misread it .. edited
> 
> China is making investments on which Pakistan has given sovereign guarantee of 18% return, meaning on investment of Rs 100 Pakistan will pay them back Rs 118 (that's in Compounded interest). In some cases its about 27.2 %.
> 
> Example :-
> Sinosure is charging a fee of 7pc for debt servicing, which will be added to the capital cost of a project. For instance, the capital cost of a 660MW project at Port Qasim is $767.9m. But it goes up to $956.1m by adding Sinosure’s fee of $63.9m, its financing fee and charges of $21m, and interest during construction of $72.8m; a 27.2pc return on equity is guaranteed. Ironically, interest during construction is allowed at the rate of 33.33pc for the first year; 33.33pc for the second; 13.33pc for the third; and 20pc for the fourth year.



Where is the official statement from any Chinese/Pakistani representitive to back up this stupid 18% interest rate figure?

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## khanmubashir

in business there r always individual winners & losers Chinese side will eliminate tariff on 90% pak products while we on their 75%
labor and living costs r cheaper in pak then china but the issues r lack/expensive electricity & availability of raw material power projects of cpec will hep in 1st and china is also the biggest supplier of semi-processed input materials so cpec will also assure their cheap availability to pak industries so they r more competitive in other other markets

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## arbit

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> es Somebozo is not indian but Indians (not pointing u) seems to worry too much about CPEC and its negative impact on Pakistan. This is the puzzle i m still unable to solve...Indians oppose this project and they will try to create misunderstanding regarding CPEC.



Informed Indians are only opposed to the stretch being planned on disputed territory. Thats all. A part of the comments are cheap shots or banter. The remaining are an attempt to understand this endeavour which is very OPAQUE in execution. No one for god sake even knows the interest rate on which loans are being granted. Unbelievable. 



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do you have any proof of this 18% interest rate? Or is it just BS?



Thats the point no one has proof of anything.  What a ride you are taking Pakistan on. Gotta respect that !

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## SrNair

Pomegranate said:


> nay national interest comes first and you can see how much india is hurt by cpec ..... keep it going ...no matter what it wont stop now .



So your national interest will succeed if a mere infrastructure projects hurt India?
I really hope your diplomats are better than this .
Our only concern is that small portion of that disputed area .

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## danger007

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Where is the official statement from any Chinese/Pakistani representitive to back up this stupid 18% interest rate figure?




I will post it..Yes IR purchasing some couches but after quality check only.. but PR railway engines??? I didn't said chinese produce counterfeit... I only said proper QC required for better output..


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## khanmubashir

Where did u get 18 %??? Out of the $46 billion CPEC investment package, roughly $11.5 billion is reserved for the road and railways infrastructure. China has promised to give concessionary loans for four infrastructure projects. Two of these projects will get interest-free loans. The composite interest rate of the four projects is over 1.6%, while the interest rate of eastern alignment projects is over 2%.tribune.com.pk/story/1096762/cpec-eastern-alignment-pakistan-china-ink-agreements-worth-4-2b/ China has announced financing for $10.63 billion worth of transportation infrastructure so far; $6.1 billion have been allocated for construction "Early Harvest" roadway projects at an interest rate of 1.6 percent.[56] The remainder of funds will be allocated when the Pakistani government awards contracts for construction of road segments which are still in the planning phase. wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_Economic_Corridor#Other_roadway_projects_associated_with_CPEC so stop being a lying bitch it will be yr women who would be fucked by americans they tried to do with us too but we did them instead that's why they cry so much and blame everything on us



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Where is the official statement from any Chinese/Pakistani representitive to back up this stupid 18% interest rate figure?


Where did u get 18 %??? Out of the $46 billion CPEC investment package, roughly $11.5 billion is reserved for the road and railways infrastructure. China has promised to give concessionary loans for four infrastructure projects. Two of these projects will get interest-free loans. The composite interest rate of the four projects is over 1.6%, while the interest rate of eastern alignment projects is over 2%.tribune.com.pk/story/1096762/cpec-eastern-alignment-pakistan-china-ink-agreements-worth-4-2b/ China has announced financing for $10.63 billion worth of transportation infrastructure so far; $6.1 billion have been allocated for construction "Early Harvest" roadway projects at an interest rate of 1.6 percent.[56] The remainder of funds will be allocated when the Pakistani government awards contracts for construction of road segments which are still in the planning phase. wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_Economic_Corridor#Other_roadway_projects_associated_with_CPEC so stop being a lying bitch it will be yr women who would be fucked by americans they tried to do with us too but we did them instead that's why they cry so much and blame everything on us

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/the-real-face-of-cpec-destroying-pakistani-industry.435931/#ixzz4CKGq7zKZ


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## Stephen Cohen

http://www.dawn.com/news/1249171

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print/129000-The-CPEC


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## danger007

18% guaranteed return... check vyoms musings .. I edited my posts..

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## SrNair

somebozo said:


> How do you combat state paid subsidies for under-cost exports??
> Dumping of Chinese steel is precisely the reason why no one is coming forward for privatization of PSM...What do you think the Chinese will come to help for? Liberating Kashmir???
> 
> If you think Chinese are brothers with friendship higher than Himalayas and deeper than oceans?? This is complete bullocks! Pakistan desperation for China represents our complete foreign policy failure...and the Chinese know how to exploit it well...
> 
> 
> 
> And what are you going to export to CHina? Donkey meat??
> Pakistani manufacturers are struggling to export to China even when duties are slashed to zero after FTA..while Chinese are actively dumping in the local market...there is a reason why everyone wants to loot the country and run abroad..its is very well suited...
> 
> 
> It is not only a question of below cost goods but also a question of low quality goods which make you lose valuable forex by repeated imports..when things break down frequently..they need to be imported frequently..



Chinese really knows how to exploit even if there is small wet in the soil .
After all these efforts we are still running on twice deficit in our trade with China.


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## Max

kill local industries? What industry we have except textile, food, cement? Do we produce heavy machinary? Let alone heavy machinary do we produce electric shaver on our own..or a tyre of cycle??? Plz clear delusions, We have no industry to begin with this shitty propaganda.. 

And 18% interest rate? Same bharti shit which they never proved... 

Shame on those Pakistanis who are speaking language of makkar baniya...

Cpec will turn us into manufecturing hub..



danger007 said:


> 18% guaranteed return... check vyoms musings .. I edited my posts..



so return on investement is considered interest rate in india?



danger007 said:


> 18% guaranteed return... check vyoms musings .. I edited my posts..



so return on investement is considered interest rate in india?

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## danger007

Max said:


> kill local industries? What industry we have except textile, food, cement? Do we produce heavy machinary? Let alone heavy machinary do we produce electric shaver on our own..or a tyre of cycle??? Plz clear delusions, We have no industry to begin with this shitty propaganda..
> 
> And 18% interest rate? Same bharti shit which they never proved...
> 
> Shame on those Pakistanis who are speaking language of makkar baniya...
> 
> Cpec will turn us into manufecturing hub..
> 
> 
> 
> so return on investement is considered interest rate in india?
> 
> 
> 
> so return on investement is considered interest rate in india?




Read again.. or use spectacles.. edited .


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## PaklovesTurkiye

arbit said:


> Informed Indians are only opposed to the stretch being planned on disputed territory. Thats all. A part of the comments are cheap shots or banter. The remaining are an attempt to understand this endeavour which is very OPAQUE in execution. No one for god sake even knows the interest rate on which loans are being granted. Unbelievable.



Pakistan still asks u to get on table for Kashmir but u refused, Calling Kashmir, your "Atoot Aang." When was the last time u were having negotiations with Pakistan on Kashmir? 

Since when Indians have started using term "disputed territory" for Kashmir?  U r using this term just for the sake of opposing CPEC and to make Pakistanis confused and argument less since Pakistan used to use this term "Disputed Territory?" It was your atoot aang, wasn't it? 

So you're concerned bcuz it passes through disputed territory? Ok, then come to table for resolving Kashmir otherwise i m afraid, now, the train has left. 

By the way, Indians wrongly perceived this. Actually, When Pakistan uses the term "disputed territory", it is actually referring to IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir). I hope Indians get correct on this. 

U took incorrect interpretation of it.

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## arbit

Dude what ever floats your boat. CPEC mubarak ho. There is no need to bring kashmir into it because that will stall the discussion. I am only discussing on the merit of the project and in the process trying to better understand it. 
I don't use this to demean your efforts. You have every right to aspire economically and justifiably too. Good luck

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## somebozo

Chinese-Dragon said:


> This Indian guy "somebozo" is suddenly upset because China is blocking India's NSG entry.
> 
> As for the topic, my city Hong Kong became rich by being a trading conduit between Mainland China and the rest of the world. Singapore became rich in a similar way.
> 
> The question is how you use the opportunities you are given. If you are unable to do that, then learn how to. Or go for isolationism.



Some one raising concerns does not have to be Indian or traitor...some facts

1. Pakistan since the 1970's has failed to build industry despite having a competitive labour..
2. Chinese have bad reputation for dumping under-cost and below quality materials in importing nations..
3. Eventually Pakistan is responsible for its destiny and the benefit of CPEC depends on how well Pakistan plans for its future.

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## war&peace

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Exactly....Indians will definitely like to create controversies regarding CPEC. Irrespective of what others do......
> 
> We have consensus in Pakistan that it should be built at any cost.
> 
> We should exploit CPEC to our fullest advantage, also keeping our local businesses intact.
> 
> It depends more on us than Chinese.........
> 
> I have read news below, is it anyhow related to CPEC?
> 
> http://tribune.com.pk/story/1126610/unprecedented-china-eases-rules-pakistans-banks/
> 
> @Kaptaan @Viper0011. What do u guys suggest, how should we protect our local businesses?


Yes brother but awefully sorry that you are committing the same mistake by referencing to Tribune as this is one of the least credible newspaper.


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## ziaulislam

Tripoli said:


> *The article has a point.* Pakistani interests come first. This project's benefits must be maximized and any damage caused by it( for example to the industrial base of Pakistan) must be reduced or eliminated.


local industries cannot live under protection forever, why would foreign investor invest here if we cannot compete with china, it should be the otherway around, look you have cheapest labour, cheapest raw material than why cannot you compete

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## PaklovesTurkiye

war&peace said:


> Yes brother but awefully sorry that you are committing the same mistake by referencing to Tribune as this is one of the least credible newspaper.



This is authentic news, bro.....

http://dailytimes.com.pk/business/19-Apr-16/habib-bank-limited-to-open-first-branch-in-china

http://nation.com.pk/business/19-Apr-2016/pak-bank-receives-licence-to-open-first-branch-in-china

http://www.brecorder.com/pakistan/b...kistani-bank-branch-in-china-by-year-end.html

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## war&peace

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> This is authentic news, bro.....
> 
> http://dailytimes.com.pk/business/19-Apr-16/habib-bank-limited-to-open-first-branch-in-china
> 
> http://nation.com.pk/business/19-Apr-2016/pak-bank-receives-licence-to-open-first-branch-in-china
> 
> http://www.brecorder.com/pakistan/b...kistani-bank-branch-in-china-by-year-end.html


Oh sorry for my ignorance since I did not even click the link so you can imagine how much I detest Pakistan Tribune. However business recorder is one of the credible sources. Thanks for the info.

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## Stephen Cohen

http://aaj.tv/2016/02/translating-cpec-into-a-game-changer/


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## Stephen Cohen

@somebozo 

You have raised very important and valid points which ALL Pakistanis must raise 

CPEC is bringing in Investment but given the rate of Return promised to China 
it will create a massive Out flow of dollars 

The Benefits to Pakistan will come only if Pakistani exports increase 

But the Expensive electricity that will be supplied by CPEC will 
raise the cost of production 

The Circular debt is already quite High 
The external debt is growing 

Pakistan needs to be very careful

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## Trisonics

IMO, it's not CPEC that is the problem but Pakistan's complete submission to China in such pacts. If Pakistan continues to be a complete sell out to the Chinese only they will suffer. Every news I have read seems to be so one sided. The whole project would have kick started the mood of the Pakistani economy if tenders were called and handed out to Pakistani companies. If China is getting everything, one can imagine the amount of corruption and kick-backs involved. CPEC helps Pakistan but it helps China more, why then should they have the cake and get to eat it too?

With Chinese products passing through the roads of Pakistan every day, there is no doubt that local industries will suffer. I think the general idea of CPEC is good but being a South Asian and knowing how corrupt our leadership can be, I don't think anything here is honky-dory. There is no transparency in the deals either, only meaning corruption is rampant and if this project fails it's mainly because Pakistan was a sellout!

China is just playing the role of an astute businessman.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

illusion8 said:


> out of the 1.25 BILLION Indians, the 50-100 or so eh see on pdf would be the only one's who would be aware of something called CPEC....THE rest 1.2499999999999 aren't when aware what CPEC is...



From where did u get this number "1.2499999999"? BRAIN FART? If you want me to believe it then i have no problem as it would mean that u guys suck at geopolitical events and at reading newspapers....



> Heck...99.99% don't even know what's the capital of Pakistan..let alone something called CPEC..



Exactly what kind of people live in India? Do they go to school or Indian teachers are on boycott against Pakistan, not ready to teach kids about Pakistan .....hey guyz. Just look what did he say? @Pakistaniforever @Areesh @shah1398 @volatile @Taimoor Khan @Lucky Breeze @maximuswarrior @DESERT FIGHTER @Sandman @Tripoli @litman 



> It would be great if you could come up with one serious discussion about this "CPEC" in Indian media and about how "extremely worried" India is about it...and how it concerns India.



Your government opposed CPEC. Do i need to say any more? and then your media articles on CPEC. I can't quote all since they are too many......



> While, I can post hundreds of pakistani media videos about Modi and the extreme paranoia that exists in the schizophrenic pakistani media About Modi.



Well....when your PM barks against Pakistan, so definitely Pakistani media will cover him and criticize him. Our videos on Modi are no where near to your level of obsession with us. We are not talking about random reporting. U guys do it purposely with having dedicated team on it to defame Pakistan. For example......your dedicated team of highly obsessed Indians....

https://twitter.com/GernailSaab
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHotspot709/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCodrS_-PGJbFA_UcVy-sUKg/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/GURUvikash/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3UOIHp7DIdruA_1hAtK2_Q/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/IndiaEternal
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5y3f5ZiUZbgjFQBOof5ncw
https://www.youtube.com/user/indiavstheworld

Foreigners have also noted your obsession with us. Its not just Pakistanis are saying....@risingsinga , a Singaporean has first hand experience of it......Americans have noted it. You and your countrymen presence on PDF and other Pakistani news site like "tribune" and "dawn" in comments section proves you're highly obsessed with us. This below thread will tell people what i m talking about.......

https://defence.pk/threads/us-def-s...es-indias-pakistan-obsession-in-delhi.427386/

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## shah1398

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Exactly what kind of people live in India? Do they go to school or Indian teachers are on boycott against Pakistan, not ready to teach kids about Pakistan .....hey guyz. Just look what did he say?



Most of them vomit out what is feeded in their brain by their media. On contrary any Indian having once visited Pakistan had been full of praise for Pakistan.

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## illusion8

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> From where did u get this number "1.2499999999"? BRAIN FART? If you want me to believe it then i have no problem as it would mean that u guys suck at geopolitical events and at reading newspapers....
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what kind of people live in India? Do they go to school or Indian teachers are on boycott against Pakistan, not ready to teach kids about Pakistan .....hey guyz. Just look what did he say? @Pakistaniforever @Areesh @shah1398 @volatile @Taimoor Khan @Lucky Breeze @maximuswarrior @DESERT FIGHTER @Sandman @Tripoli @litman
> 
> 
> 
> Your government opposed CPEC. Do i need to say any more? and then your media articles on CPEC. I can't quote all since they are too many......
> 
> 
> 
> Well....when your PM barks against Pakistan, so definitely Pakistani media will cover him and criticize him. Our videos on Modi are no where near to your level of obsession with us. We are not talking about random reporting. U guys do it purposely with having dedicated team on it to defame Pakistan. For example......your dedicated team of highly obsessed Indians....
> 
> https://twitter.com/GernailSaab
> https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHotspot709/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCodrS_-PGJbFA_UcVy-sUKg/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/user/GURUvikash/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3UOIHp7DIdruA_1hAtK2_Q/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/user/IndiaEternal
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5y3f5ZiUZbgjFQBOof5ncw
> https://www.youtube.com/user/indiavstheworld
> 
> Foreigners have also noted your obsession with us. Its not just Pakistanis are saying....@risingsinga , a Singaporean has first hand experience of it......Americans have noted it. You and your countrymen presence on PDF and other Pakistani news site like "tribune" and "dawn" in comments section proves you're highly obsessed with us. This below thread will tell people what i m talking about.......
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/us-def-s...es-indias-pakistan-obsession-in-delhi.427386/



Schizophrenic much. .calling your buddies for support? .

As I said, show me one serious article where India is concerned about cpec..The concern was / is of chinese troops in Azad Kashmir..which is a disputed territory.

While every pakistani claims that India is out to prevent the cpec, the fact is no one gives a ff across the border...because no one cares.

Highly obsessed about what? Most Indians know about pakistan because of terrorism, like most in the world do.or cricket or due to the wars. Other than that..They know as much about pakistan as they know about bangladesh.

Pakistan isn't exactly the center of the world as most of you think.

About our presence here..We are here mostly for the amusement..It was a decent board a while ago, it's degenerated into mostly troll posts and now, into a dead duck.

Thanks for the YouTube links..lol, your media is hilarious.

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## guest11

@PaklovesTurkiye Since you started an offtopic conversation about "obsession". Here you go, mind you these are not some random Youtube channels or twitter accounts_* but an annual review by Google. *_


*10 people Pakistanis were 'most obsessed' with in 2015*

*
Google has released its annual review of what Pakistan was searching for this year. While many of the people Pakistanis were obsessed with in 2015 may not surprise you, a few of the results in Google’s Year in Search are quite unexpected.


Let’s take a look at Google’s Year in Search which reveals the most searched people in Pakistan in 2015.
*

*3. Amy Jackson*


Surprisingly, British model-actor Amy Jackson came out on number three in the list of most searched people in Pakistan this year. The rising star also recently wore a Shehla Chatoor design to a promotional event for her upcoming film, the Akshay Kumar-starrer _Singh Is Bliing_.







*4. Karishma Tanna*

Indian actress and Big Boss 8 contestant also made it to the top people searched by Pakistanis.





Karishma Tanna PHOTO: AFP

*5. Mira Rajput*

It was no surprise that Mira made it to the list after she shot to fame following the announcement of her wedding to Bollywood heartthrob Shahid Kapoor earlier this year. Many hearts were broken and with it a new obsession set in. From first pictures of the beautiful couple together to the wedding of the year, the internet documented everything and Pakistanis couldn’t stop themselves from looking.





Shahid Kapoor and Mira Rajput PHOTO: INSTAGRAM

*6. Mandana Karimi*

Another Big Boss contestant made it to the list. Apparently, Pakistanis take the Big Boss show very seriously.





Mandana Karimi PHOTO: INDIA FORUM

*8. Gautam Gulati*

Gautam Gulati is an Indian film and TV actor known for his role in ‘Diya Aur Baati Hum’ and was the winner of reality show Bigg Boss 8.





Indian television actor Gautam Gulati and Farah Khan during the ‘Bigg Boss Seaon 8’ final in Lonavala. PHOTO: AFP


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## Lucky Breeze

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Exactly what kind of people live in India? Do they go to school or Indian teachers are on boycott against Pakistan, not ready to teach kids about Pakistan .....hey guyz. Just look what did he say?


Yap its their education level



they think from their ANU'S. Its not their fault
And off course that also lead to their food habits.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

illusion8 said:


> Schizophrenic much. .calling your buddies for support? .
> 
> As I said, show me one serious article where India is concerned about cpec..The concern was / is of chinese troops in ***..which is a disputed territory.
> 
> While every pakistani claims that India is out to prevent the cpec, the fact is no one gives a ff across the border...because no one cares.
> 
> Highly obsessed about what? Most Indians know about pakistan because of terrorism, like most in the world do.or cricket or due to the wars. Other than that..They know as much about pakistan as they know about bangladesh.
> 
> Pakistan isn't exactly the center of the world as most of you think.
> 
> About our presence here..We are here mostly for the amusement..It was a decent board a while ago, it's degenerated into mostly troll posts and now, into a dead duck.
> 
> Thanks for the YouTube links..lol, your media is hilarious.



You appears to be more dumb than i thought. First u give all your countrymen bad name that how they don't even know the capital of Pakistan. U insulted India yourself, i just caught u....

Calling for support? Your post was such hilarious that i couldn't take and tagged Pakistanis over here to laugh at u. I don't miss such opportunities especially when it comes to Indian trolls. Just yesterday, I, one handedly, humiliated one of your member because he got personal with me and resorted to abusive slangs. I don't run for ratings and support, don't assume everyone is like of u. 

If pdf is that bad, then never log in again. We highly regard PDF. It is very dearest forum where we can talk with Pakistanis any time any day.......This thread was related to Pakistan yet u r jumping up and down on this thread and saying we r not obsessed with Pakistan. Exactly what kind of hypocritical u are. i tagged one Singaporean member because he shared how Indians show their moronic attitude while Pakistanis don't give a single fuk to them....... 



> Most Indians know about pakistan because of terrorism, like most in the world do.or cricket or due to the wars.



U Born lier........Indians know about Pakistan because of Umer Shariff, Rahat Fatah Ali Khan, Atif Aslam, Wasim Akram, Imran Khan, Nazia Hasan, Coke Studio etc and so on......

Since u already know these facts, my reply was intended to all people especially foreigners, reading this thread, so that they don't fall for your Indian propaganda.



> As I said, show me one serious article where India is concerned about cpec..The concern was / is of chinese troops in ***..which is a disputed territory.



This is the serious article u r demanding..........The way you're Modi went to China and raised objection on it, seems to be lot more headaches than just passing thr' disputed territory.......

http://www.firstpost.com/world/here...-46-billion-offering-to-pakistan-2205216.html

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...-india-and-we-should-be-concerned-255010.html

Chinese troops do give us a friendly tour and they are also very kind on u too....Aren't they? Just last week they remained in your territory for more than one hour. So what does that mean that u won't construct any infra on that territory in which Chinese have stepped in? Chinese come and gone. As far as disputed territory, Pakistan used this term Disputed territory, since when Indians started using this term? Pakistan was the originator of this term regarding Kashmir and by this term we referred to IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir). So, I hope Pakistanis have clarified Indians now. U did wrong interpretation of it and we r not responsible for this idiocy of u. Disputed territory means IOK........Got it?

Don't quote me again, dumb.....



Lucky Breeze said:


> Yap its their education level
> 
> 
> 
> they think from their ANU'S. Its not their fault
> And off course that also lead to their food habits.



......Man, I m literally tired of these Indians. Just yesterday, i nailed one down and yet one of them again engaged me....Looks like Indian trolls love to be humiliated by me.......

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## Lucky Breeze

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> We are just excited about it and do talk about its positive and negative. We will take care of it. CPEC will lay down the foundation of our success. Power supply, dams, railways are going to be upgraded. Chinese are master in infrastructure development. You don't need to compare India with Pakistan. We r going to have Chinese built infra, a damn good one. The increased cooperation and economic integration with more than One billion people having economy of trillions of dollars is not a JOKE. Thats why we are very ambitious about it. The whole world has eyes on it. Iran, UK, US, China, Middle East. U name it. If all goes as it is planned, we will literally change the whole dynamics of South Asia. CARS may use Gwadar port. Western China will definitely going to use Gwadar. Iran is very serious about joining Gwadar too. Whole region is going to have connectivity with each other.


You are right. Actually CPEC will not destroy the local industry just local industrialist have to break their cartels. The consumers item prices will get low,especially the products with dissonance reducing buying behavior. Most cartels are being made for these products.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

guest11 said:


> @PaklovesTurkiye Since you started an offtopic conversation about "obsession". Here you go, mind you these are not some random Youtube channels or twitter accounts_* but an annual review by Google. *_
> 
> 
> *10 people Pakistanis were 'most obsessed' with in 2015*
> 
> 
> *Google has released its annual review of what Pakistan was searching for this year. While many of the people Pakistanis were obsessed with in 2015 may not surprise you, a few of the results in Google’s Year in Search are quite unexpected.*
> 
> 
> *Let’s take a look at Google’s Year in Search which reveals the most searched people in Pakistan in 2015.*
> 
> 
> *3. Amy Jackson*
> 
> 
> Surprisingly, British model-actor Amy Jackson came out on number three in the list of most searched people in Pakistan this year. The rising star also recently wore a Shehla Chatoor design to a promotional event for her upcoming film, the Akshay Kumar-starrer _Singh Is Bliing_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *4. Karishma Tanna*
> 
> Indian actress and Big Boss 8 contestant also made it to the top people searched by Pakistanis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karishma Tanna PHOTO: AFP
> 
> *5. Mira Rajput*
> 
> It was no surprise that Mira made it to the list after she shot to fame following the announcement of her wedding to Bollywood heartthrob Shahid Kapoor earlier this year. Many hearts were broken and with it a new obsession set in. From first pictures of the beautiful couple together to the wedding of the year, the internet documented everything and Pakistanis couldn’t stop themselves from looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shahid Kapoor and Mira Rajput PHOTO: INSTAGRAM
> 
> *6. Mandana Karimi*
> 
> Another Big Boss contestant made it to the list. Apparently, Pakistanis take the Big Boss show very seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mandana Karimi PHOTO: INDIA FORUM
> 
> *8. Gautam Gulati*
> 
> Gautam Gulati is an Indian film and TV actor known for his role in ‘Diya Aur Baati Hum’ and was the winner of reality show Bigg Boss 8.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian television actor Gautam Gulati and Farah Khan during the ‘Bigg Boss Seaon 8’ final in Lonavala. PHOTO: AFP



If u have seen, read and understood my posts then u should have known in which context i was talking about. I have already answered to another Indian guy. Don't quote me again....i'll give u a hint......visit this thread......

https://defence.pk/threads/us-def-s...es-indias-pakistan-obsession-in-delhi.427386/


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## Genesis

ziaulislam said:


> local industries cannot live under protection forever, why would foreign investor invest here if we cannot compete with china, it should be the otherway around, look you have cheapest labour, cheapest raw material than why cannot you compete



from what I can gather from my debates here, the consensus is if you do protectionist policies long enough, industry will become competitive on their own.

How or why, I don't know, but apparently that's very much on the cards.



Trisonics said:


> IMO, it's not CPEC that is the problem but Pakistan's complete submission to China in such pacts. If Pakistan continues to be a complete sell out to the Chinese only they will suffer. Every news I have read seems to be so one sided. The whole project would have kick started the mood of the Pakistani economy if tenders were called and handed out to Pakistani companies. If China is getting everything, one can imagine the amount of corruption and kick-backs involved. CPEC helps Pakistan but it helps China more, why then should they have the cake and get to eat it too?
> 
> With Chinese products passing through the roads of Pakistan every day, there is no doubt that local industries will suffer. I think the general idea of CPEC is good but being a South Asian and knowing how corrupt our leadership can be, I don't think anything here is honky-dory. There is no transparency in the deals either, only meaning corruption is rampant and if this project fails it's mainly because Pakistan was a sellout!
> 
> China is just playing the role of an astute businessman.



You know 50 billion dollars, that's nothing. You know what else, 4 decades of Chinese experience in all things infrastructure as well as China's reliable supply of materials is nothing really.

I'm sure you can find it anywhere. 

Too many people look at China and sees just the low end manufacturing, the roads, the bridges and the rails and think how hard can that be. Reality isn't that it's hard, it's that it's impossible if you don't have the right kind of help. Make Modi into the manager of a factory he can turn it into a brand, but you have one Modi and there's 1.2 billion Indians. 

What you are suggesting, local manufacturing and participation won't work because you need more than a few outstanding people, you need millions of competent people. That takes decades to shape. 

Chinese government today faces far more opposition in major projects due to social media and other forms of communication, and yet it is starting far more ambitious projects than ever before, why? It took us over 3 decades of lowly existence to become who we are today. 

If you think you can just do it because you want to is frankly why people fail. Just like getting into shape, people want the 1 month program not the life long life style change. The one month program even if it works is temporary( it never does), only through sustained effort can progress be achieved.

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## Mrc

astonishing to see astounding number of our neighbours (well wishers in the east who want to conquer us to stroke their.....ego) warning us how bad and ugly Chinese investment is for our country...

mind blowing

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## sims1729

I want a strong pakistan because it will keep India on its toes....India has to have the mindset that we have to tackle both china and pakistan...pakistan has a weak sparring partner in India..but India has a super strong sparring partner in China...sparring with China ( economic & military preparedness) will make India stronger...and hopefully no wars just healthy competition which benefits all

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## kshaib

There is no Country to stop of CPEC progress. do not listen Traitors.

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## Rajaraja Chola

Genesis said:


> Pakistan is a poor nation, there I said it. Non counterfeit products, your people can't afford. Everyone likes a Gucci, a Tom Ford, but those are upwards of 5000 USD, about 3 years salary for a average Pakistani man.
> 
> Let me ask you, what do you want China to do. To play fair? We are, but we are Lebron and you are, well, not. Subsidies is part of it, but infrastructure and experience as well as a host of other qualities that we developed over the years is not something easily duplicated. Blaming it on subsidies is in fact lazy and hardly the truth. This is the same Indian excuse, which is hardly accurate because we are the manufacturing powerhouse of the world, not to India, or Pakistan.
> 
> The hard truth of Pakistan is you have limited amount to offer, take advantage of everything. I remember like yesterday, American documentaries in 90s and early 2000s talked of how Americans were takiing advantage of China, kicking us out of our homes and getting preferential treatment.
> 
> Fast forward 2016, a totally different narrative has emerged. China challenging the West in science and higher tier goods and services, as well as exploiting Africa.
> 
> You can't come into the league as a rookie and expect to get the same calls as Lebron, become Curry, win a title and 2 MVPs and then we'll talk.
> 
> China and Pakistan are partners, the fact you would question China's commitment to Pakistan shows perfectly that Pakistan is very much a partner and not a benefactor in this arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to take the approach of protectionism, how are you going to compete globally. Pakistan, but especially India, needs to be international to be competitive and create growth.
> 
> Are you going to tell America, EU, Africa to tax Chinese goods but let yours through? They would listen to you?
> 
> China is the manufacturing leader, because we took the challenge and we won, you want something, take it, but don't build a wall, cover your ears and hear no evil. That's the Soviet's approach. I don't have to tell you where they went.
> 
> Do protectionism if you want, but all you will do is create a highly inefficient industry thatch about as competitive internationally as Chinese football is.



Are you telling me that Chinese are fair? The last time I saw, Chinese are ready to open everything except textiles, pharmaticals, auto and IT industry to Indians, where Indian industry has an edge over China. 

We will be open if you want to be. I know an personal experience of Electronic import. For my support project to be installed in China contained an whole integrated system, complete with a computer. Chinese customs refused to let in the computer. Then we bargained hard, telling that the CPU is part of that system, and replicating it will delay the project. Finally they let in, but what? They shipped back the LCD display back to India. I had to buy one over there in China. 

LCD too in some probability made in China. See. These are kinda examples of informal or uninformed trade barriers in CHina we had to face. A lot.

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## somebozo

Mrc said:


> astonishing to see astounding number of our neighbours (well wishers in the east who want to conquer us to stroke their.....ego) warning us how bad and ugly Chinese investment is for our country...
> 
> mind blowing



The same people taking their begging bowl to China for 200B of infrastructure investments..


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## Lucky Breeze

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Just yesterday, i nailed one down


BRAVO



sims1729 said:


> I want a strong pakistan because it will keep India on its toes....India has to have the mindset that we have to tackle both china and pakistan...pakistan has a weak sparring partner in India..but India has a super strong sparring partner in China...sparring with China ( economic & military preparedness) will make India stronger...and hopefully no wars just healthy competition which benefits all


Wish we all have progressive mindset and both countries work on their people's liberty and prosperity. Seriously our region is far far lagging behind the human development.

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## Genesis

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Are you telling me that Chinese are fair? The last time I saw, Chinese are ready to open everything except textiles, pharmaticals, auto and IT industry to Indians, where Indian industry has an edge over China.
> 
> We will be open if you want to be. I know an personal experience of Electronic import. For my support project to be installed in China contained an whole integrated system, complete with a computer. Chinese customs refused to let in the computer. Then we bargained hard, telling that the CPU is part of that system, and replicating it will delay the project. Finally they let in, but what? They shipped back the LCD display back to India. I had to buy one over there in China.
> 
> LCD too in some probability made in China. See. These are kinda examples of informal or uninformed trade barriers in CHina we had to face. A lot.



There are certainly still barriers sure, I would like to see a complete elimination of them, but it is what it is. However, what do you consider fair, more restrictions? Less, equal? I know we don't have more restrictions than India. Compare to the US, not as good.

I don't know your situation, so I can't comment, but I find it hard to believe if everything is in order you would not be let in. People bring computers into China all the time, but again I don't know exactly what the situation is.

But you have advantage in textiles? lol, you know how much of the global textiles market we control? As to Auto, every major player is in China and for many we are their biggest market like toyota. In terms of IT, we don't speak English,what would we need Indian IT for, also how many tech giants are in China compare to anywhere. Pharmaceuticals maybe, but I know there are quite a few in China and we did offer tax breaks and what not, but apparently the interest is not that high in India.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/236397/value-of-the-leading-global-textile-exporters-by-country/
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms

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## Rajaraja Chola

Genesis said:


> There are certainly still barriers sure, I would like to see a complete elimination of them, but it is what it is. However, what do you consider fair, more restrictions? Less, equal? I know we don't have more restrictions than India. Compare to the US, not as good.
> 
> I don't know your situation, so I can't comment, but I find it hard to believe if everything is in order you would not be let in. People bring computers into China all the time, but again I don't know exactly what the situation is.
> 
> But you have advantage in textiles? lol, you know how much of the global textiles market we control? As to Auto, every major player is in China and for many we are their biggest market like toyota. In terms of IT, we don't speak English,what would we need Indian IT for, also how many tech giants are in China compare to anywhere. Pharmaceuticals maybe, but I know there are quite a few in China and we did offer tax breaks and what not, but apparently the interest is not that high in India.
> 
> http://www.statista.com/statistics/236397/value-of-the-leading-global-textile-exporters-by-country/
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms



Oh please. Only if you open it will Indian Auto companies can compete with the Chinese, which it refuses to do. Do u think the CHinese are writing C++ in Chinese? 

You had talked about fair competition. Then why u r backing away from it telling some reasons or other?

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## Genesis

Rajaraja Chola said:


> Oh please. Only if you open it will Indian Auto companies can compete with the Chinese, which it refuses to do. Do u think the CHinese are writing C++ in Chinese?
> 
> You had talked about fair competition. Then why u r backing away from it telling some reasons or other?



Coding really? I learnt C in a weekend. I'm in mobile apps industry, what even uses C++ anyways. It's all Java and Swift, with a few others here and there.

Though it's possible India faces barriers here, in terms of service we may not be as open and as a result we are not that strong in the field. Which is my point, protectionism never works. 

I would never back away from free market, why would I. A weaker industry is my exact argument. 

As to Auto, if India can't compete with Hyundai and Toyota under the same conditions in China, then it's really not China's problem. But China does need to liberalize here and hence we are not a force in the auto industry globally.

Once again proving my point.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> .......... I m Karachiite, (Descendant of Immigrant) and no way in hell this project is Punjab related. Stop spewing propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> Great observation. I hope that we will successfully sail the boat to its real destination. In Sha Allah.


I see no reason why Turkish companies shouldn't invest along CPEC. They have many things to offer. With good infrastructure and cheap labor access to ~1.5b people should be fully explored..

Some folks have already accepted defeat even without firing a single shot!! If it were the mentality could you have snatched Pak from the jaws of _Ram Rajya_?? Or, could you have struck the strategic balance??? IMHO, those tasks required much higher feats than taking full benefit from CPEC. I've met folks from Pak along with folks from so many other nations- one of the advantages of being in the USA. Paks are no less intelligent, rather more, than others. I am pretty sue they can pull it through...

As for _Ehl-i Iman_, Paks will be pushed forward by _Murad-i Ilahi_ like the Turkish folks. So, stop worrying start working...

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## illusion8

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> You appears to be more dumb than i thought. First u give all your countrymen bad name that how they don't even know the capital of Pakistan. U insulted India yourself, i just caught u....
> 
> Calling for support? Your post was such hilarious that i couldn't take and tagged Pakistanis over here to laugh at u. I don't miss such opportunities especially when it comes to Indian trolls. Just yesterday, I, one handedly, humiliated one of your member because he got personal with me and resorted to abusive slangs. I don't run for ratings and support, don't assume everyone is like of u.
> 
> If pdf is that bad, then never log in again. We highly regard PDF. It is very dearest forum where we can talk with Pakistanis any time any day.......This thread was related to Pakistan yet u r jumping up and down on this thread and saying we r not obsessed with Pakistan. Exactly what kind of hypocritical u are. i tagged one Singaporean member because he shared how Indians show their moronic attitude while Pakistanis don't give a single fuk to them.......
> 
> 
> 
> U Born lier........Indians know about Pakistan because of Umer Shariff, Rahat Fatah Ali Khan, Atif Aslam, Wasim Akram, Imran Khan, Nazia Hasan, Coke Studio etc and so on......
> 
> Since u already know these facts, my reply was intended to all people especially foreigners, reading this thread, so that they don't fall for your Indian propaganda.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the serious article u r demanding..........The way you're Modi went to China and raised objection on it, seems to be lot more headaches than just passing thr' disputed territory.......
> 
> http://www.firstpost.com/world/here...-46-billion-offering-to-pakistan-2205216.html
> 
> http://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...-india-and-we-should-be-concerned-255010.html
> 
> Chinese troops do give us a friendly tour and they are also very kind on u too....Aren't they? Just last week they remained in your territory for more than one hour. So what does that mean that u won't construct any infra on that territory in which Chinese have stepped in? Chinese come and gone. As far as disputed territory, Pakistan used this term Disputed territory, since when Indians started using this term? Pakistan was the originator of this term regarding Kashmir and by this term we referred to IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir). So, I hope Pakistanis have clarified Indians now. U did wrong interpretation of it and we r not responsible for this idiocy of u. Disputed territory means IOK........Got it?
> 
> Don't quote me again, dumb.....
> 
> 
> 
> ......Man, I m literally tired of these Indians. Just yesterday, i nailed one down and yet one of them again engaged me....Looks like Indian trolls love to be humiliated by me.......



Singlehandedly?  is that the reason you called your pals?

The only reason I will stop answering your post is because I will be wasting my time..

I see that you are an addition to the "slow" brigade on pdf.



somebozo said:


> The same people taking their begging bowl to China for 200B of infrastructure investments..



Investments =/= begging, China gets billions in investments from all over, you don't construe that as begging.

The chinese offer the lowest interest rates, but the Japanese have done better than that.

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## RiazHaq

THE EXPRESS TRIBUNE > BUSINESS
Pakistan, China ink agreements worth $4.2b

As per the contracts, China would provide a concessionary loan of $1.3 billion for the 120-kilometre long Thakot-Havelian section of Karakoram Highyway-II (KKH-II) and $2.9 billion for the 392-kilometre Multan-Sukkur section of the Lahore-Karachi motorway.

------

Since China is providing concessionary loans for both projects, the contracts have been awarded on a government-to-government basis, waiving the condition of international competitive bidding.

Out of the $46 billion CPEC investment package, roughly $11.5 billion is reserved for the road and railways infrastructure. China has promised to give concessionary loans for four infrastructure projects. Two of these projects will get interest-free loans.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/1096762/cpec-eastern-alignment-pakistan-china-ink-agreements-worth-4-2b/

From Business Recorder: 


China would extend assistance to Pakistan at 1.6 percent interest rate for infrastructure projects under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), it is learnt. Member, Infrastructure and Regional Connectivity of Planning Commission Malik Ahmad Khan confirmed that China would extend assistance to Pakistan at 1.6 percent interest for infrastructure projects under CPEC. "We wanted China to reduce this rate from 1.6 percent to 1 percent. And the Finance Division is making efforts in this regard," he added.

Under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor Projects (CPEC), China has promised to invest around $11.8 billion in infrastructure projects and $33.8 billion in various energy projects which will be completed by 2017 at the latest. According to sources, the corridor is a 2,700-kilometre highway that would stretch from Kashghar to Gwadar through Khunjrab. The CPEC will integrate the economies of the two friendly countries; it envisages several economic zones.

http://www.brecorder.com/market-data/stocks-a-bonds/0/1223449/

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## Pakistanisage

Maybe the foreign competition is good for our industry. Maybe we need to improve our productivity and produce better products. Let's not blame foreign competition for our own incompetence.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

illusion8 said:


> Singlehandedly?  is that the reason you called your pals?
> 
> The only reason I will stop answering your post is because I will be wasting my time..
> 
> I see that you are an addition to the "slow" brigade on pdf.
> .



....The only reason u won't post something may be for months is because i have caught u in insulting and making fun of your own India and its people.......U will fear that now whenever u post something, I will haunt u with this very post of yours.........which u deleted obviously.....Damn, i must have taken screen shot........However i managed to have pic from my replying post......... U can't get away with your below post, i have just captured....


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## dray

danger007 said:


> am lil mistaken..
> 
> i misread it .. edited
> 
> China is making investments on which Pakistan has given sovereign guarantee of 18% return, meaning on investment of Rs 100 Pakistan will pay them back Rs 118 (that's in Compounded interest). In some cases its about 27.2 %.
> 
> Example :-
> Sinosure is charging a fee of 7pc for debt servicing, which will be added to the capital cost of a project. For instance, the capital cost of a 660MW project at Port Qasim is $767.9m. But it goes up to $956.1m by adding Sinosure’s fee of $63.9m, its financing fee and charges of $21m, and interest during construction of $72.8m; a 27.2pc return on equity is guaranteed. Ironically, interest during construction is allowed at the rate of 33.33pc for the first year; 33.33pc for the second; 13.33pc for the third; and 20pc for the fourth year.



How do they give sovereign guarantee of 18% return? If the return is less Pakistan will pay the balance?



Genesis said:


> There are certainly still barriers sure, I would like to see a complete elimination of them, but it is what it is. However, what do you consider fair, more restrictions? Less, equal? I know we don't have more restrictions than India. Compare to the US, not as good.
> 
> I don't know your situation, so I can't comment, but I find it hard to believe if everything is in order you would not be let in. People bring computers into China all the time, but again I don't know exactly what the situation is.
> 
> But you have advantage in textiles? lol, you know how much of the global textiles market we control? As to Auto, every major player is in China and for many we are their biggest market like toyota. In terms of IT, we don't speak English,what would we need Indian IT for, also how many tech giants are in China compare to anywhere. Pharmaceuticals maybe, but I know there are quite a few in China and we did offer tax breaks and what not, but apparently the interest is not that high in India.
> 
> http://www.statista.com/statistics/236397/value-of-the-leading-global-textile-exporters-by-country/
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ian-pharma-companies/articleshow/52843226.cms



If protectionism is bad for others then it's bad for China too, open these Chinese sectors to India, then whether we succeed or not is our problem.

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## danger007

Rain Man said:


> How do they give sovereign guarantee of 18% return? If the return is less Pakistan will pay the balance?
> 
> 
> 
> If protectionism is bad for others then it's bad for China too, open these Chinese sectors to India, then whether we succeed or not is our problem.




They did, That too for 45years i think...

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## dray

danger007 said:


> They did, That too for 45years i think...



On the entire $46 billion?? That comes to a sovereign guarantee of sending $8.28 billion of revenue annually to China!! CPEC seems to be truly radical and life changing for Pakistan.

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## danger007

Rain Man said:


> On the entire $46 billion?? That comes to a sovereign guarantee of sending $8.28 billion of revenue annually to China!! CPEC seems to be truly radical and life changing for Pakistan.




Not on entire 46B $ ..

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## Great Sachin

There is no competition for China in Pakistan....and you know what happen when there is Monopoly....

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## khanmubashir

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Where is the official statement from any Chinese/Pakistani representitive to back up this stupid 18% interest rate figure?


they r from 1.6 to 2+% interest rates just google interest rates on cpec projects

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## Spring Onion

as if Chinese products won't find way into Pakistan without CPEC.

All this BS should stop. CEPC must go on

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## danger007

somebozo said:


> The same people taking their begging bowl to China for 200B of infrastructure investments..




India seeking investment but with caution ... before any project get nod will come across many evolutions.. if you consider it is begging then china getting more FDI from abroad... the point is not taking loans but materialising the proposal, along with balance between inflow and outflow.. impact on local industries in short term and long term... As you are talking about counterfeit product... unless pak allow goods into pak through proper QC, I don't think any project would beneficial...

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## Taimoor Khan

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> From where did u get this number "1.2499999999"? BRAIN FART? If you want me to believe it then i have no problem as it would mean that u guys suck at geopolitical events and at reading newspapers....
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what kind of people live in India? Do they go to school or Indian teachers are on boycott against Pakistan, not ready to teach kids about Pakistan .....hey guyz. Just look what did he say? @Pakistaniforever @Areesh @shah1398 @volatile @Taimoor Khan @Lucky Breeze @maximuswarrior @DESERT FIGHTER @Sandman @Tripoli @litman
> 
> 
> 
> Your government opposed CPEC. Do i need to say any more? and then your media articles on CPEC. I can't quote all since they are too many......
> 
> 
> 
> Well....when your PM barks against Pakistan, so definitely Pakistani media will cover him and criticize him. Our videos on Modi are no where near to your level of obsession with us. We are not talking about random reporting. U guys do it purposely with having dedicated team on it to defame Pakistan. For example......your dedicated team of highly obsessed Indians....
> 
> https://twitter.com/GernailSaab
> https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHotspot709/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCodrS_-PGJbFA_UcVy-sUKg/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/user/GURUvikash/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3UOIHp7DIdruA_1hAtK2_Q/videos
> https://www.youtube.com/user/IndiaEternal
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5y3f5ZiUZbgjFQBOof5ncw
> https://www.youtube.com/user/indiavstheworld
> 
> Foreigners have also noted your obsession with us. Its not just Pakistanis are saying....@risingsinga , a Singaporean has first hand experience of it......Americans have noted it. You and your countrymen presence on PDF and other Pakistani news site like "tribune" and "dawn" in comments section proves you're highly obsessed with us. This below thread will tell people what i m talking about.......
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/us-def-s...es-indias-pakistan-obsession-in-delhi.427386/



What is saying rather admitting that majority of Indians dont have access to TV and internet, otherwise their media is obsessed with Pakistan. Its just the lack of basic access to information in India which is the issue he is highlighting.

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## livingdead

Dont know about pakistan but indian manufacturing do have a fighting chance to survive chinese onslaught at least in domestic sector. Indian consumers take pride in their brands and would prefer it to chinese brand in most cases where alternative exists.

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## danger007

Taimoor Khan said:


> What is saying rather admitting that majority of Indians dont have access to TV and internet, otherwise their media is obsessed with Pakistan. Its just the lack of basic access to information in India which is the issue he is highlighting.




You are funny ... Pakistan internet users 17.8% whereas in India 34.8%.. lolz

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## Zain Malik

somebozo said:


> http://tribune.com.pk/story/821418/fta-with-china-pakistan-offers-to-scrap-duties-on-50-of-products/
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD:
> As domestic industries are at risk of being wiped out due to dumping of cheap Chinese products, Pakistan has offered to eliminate duties only on half of the total product lines in the second phase of the free trade agreement (FTA) instead of 90% under the original plan.
> 
> Both the countries agreed on four broad principles for implementing the second phase of FTA, which would protect the interest of local industries, said Khurram Dastgir Khan, the Minister of Commerce.
> 
> “One of the main principles is that tariff concessions will not be on a reciprocal basis, rather these will be in favour of Pakistan,” Khan said.
> 
> Firstly, tariff reduction modalities of the second phase will be independent of the first phase, meaning there will be fresh negotiations on all aspects of the agreement.
> 
> Secondly, the tariff reduction will not be on a reciprocal basis and China will give more incentives to Pakistan to make up for the adverse impact of the first phase.
> 
> Thirdly, both sides offered different timelines for bringing down duties and on the pace of lowering tariff and in Pakistan’s case it will be slow.
> 
> Lastly, if imports surge beyond a threshold, the two countries can apply trigger mechanisms and impose safeguard duties.
> 
> Pakistan offered immediate reduction in duties to zero on 50% of product lines, which was far less than the original plan of lowering the duties on 90% of product lines, said Dr Robina Ather, Additional Secretary of Commerce Ministry.
> 
> At present, Chinese exporters were enjoying zero duties on 35% of total product lines, she added.
> 
> In comparison, China has offered to immediately slash duties to 70% of product lines. It has also suggested that after five years it will reduce duties on another 10% and the 90% target will be achieved in the next 10 years.
> 
> However, Pakistan would lower duties on 90% of product lines in the next 15 to 20 years, she added.
> 
> These timeframes will be taken up in the next round of negotiations that will be held in Beijing at the end of March.
> 
> *Intricacies of FTA*
> 
> Both the sides are negotiating the FTA afresh after Pakistani industries complained about the 2006 agreement that was highly in favour of China. Negotiations for implementing the second phase were due but fresh principles were agreed to address the concerns of both the countries.
> 
> Dastgir said critics of the 2006 agreement believed that the FTA was not in favour of Pakistan, adding Pakistan had conveyed three main concerns to the Chinese team during the third round of negotiations for implementing the second phase.
> 
> Free trade access to China could not be sufficiently utilised as Beijing did not reduce duties on products where Pakistani sectors enjoyed a competitive advantage, said the minister.
> 
> Secondly, the margin of preference over other countries that Pakistan should have enjoyed effectively came to naught after China signed similar free trade accords with other countries, particularly the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean).
> 
> Finally, Pakistan had been persistently sustaining a loss of Rs22 billion on account of tax exemptions granted to imports from China.
> 
> Pakistan did not fully exploit the FTA due to the energy crisis and dumping of Chinese products, the minister remarked. Dumping was the main concern of Pakistani industries, particularly of steel products, polyester staple fibre and many other products, he said.
> 
> The commerce ministry has been receiving individual complaints about the dumping of Chinese products.
> 
> At present, the balance of trade is in favour of China. Against exports worth $2.5 billion, Pakistan imported $7.5 billion worth of products from China.
> 
> However, while defending the FTA, the minister said it was beneficial as well as Pakistan’s cotton exports, particularly, increased from $329 million in 2006 to $1.3 billion in 2014.
> 
> _Published in The Express Tribune, January 14th, 2015._
> 
> _Like __Business on Facebook_, _follow __@TribuneBiz__ on Twitter to stay informed and join in the conversation._


Stop posting such things.....!!!
Many haters in here dont want PAK_CHINA freindship....!!!!!


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## Taimoor Khan

danger007 said:


> may be you are familiar with randi rona.. we don't need .. our economy moving ahead unlike Pakistan..



Yeap moving ahead on fudged numbers.


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## kshaib

How much China put industries, nobody say about that................ do not be stupid, Check all that industries China had created in Pakistan. Better thank them , then say anything against them.

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