# The Great Game Changer: Belt and Road Intiative (BRI; OBOR)



## Pk_Thunder




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## gpit

*Siberia Has Timber and Minerals but Very Few People*
By Joshua Kucera

Posted Monday, Dec. 28, 2009, at 11:17 AM ET






IRKUTSK, RussiaWhen you're the leader of a fringe political group, a cafe called "I'm Waiting for a UFO" may not be the best place to take a visiting journalist. But it's possible that alien abduction is more likely than what Mikheil Kulekhov is working for: Siberian independence.

Kulekhov was the head of the Siberian Liberation Army until officers from the FSB (the successor to the KGB) contacted him. "They asked me: 'Why are you calling yourselves an army? Are you going to take up arms?' " Assured that wasn't the case, the officers asked Kulekhov to change the organization's name. He did, and it is now the National Alternative of Siberia. (The two names share the same acronym in Russian, OAS, he points out.) 

That Russian security let these would-be secessionists off with nothing more than a gentle scolding is probably a reflection of the group's modest size: Kulekhov counts about 30 members in the OAS. So, Siberia is not Chechnya. 

Siberian independence is unlikely. But this region's long-term political and economic future is uncertain. Much of the oil and natural gas that has fueled Russia's booming economy over the last decade is found in eastern Siberia, and the area is also rich in timber, minerals, and other natural resources. But it doesn't have very many people. This was the last part of Russia to be settled, and the Russian history of much of eastern Siberia stretches back barely 100 years.

Contrary to Siberia's reputation, most of the cities I visited were pleasantIrkutsk, in particular, has gracious architecture and a bookish college-town feel. Siberians boast that they tend to be smarter and better-looking than their compatriots, because so much of Russia's elite was shipped out here when Siberia was used as a penal colony. But life here has always been difficult; it's remote and, in the winter, bitterly cold. The Soviets encouraged Russians to settle here, but after the collapse of the Soviet Union, people started heading west: *The population of Russia east of Irkutsk decreased from 8 million to 6 million between 1998 and 2002 *(the date of the last census). What would this mass exodus mean for Russia? Perhaps Russia's greatest claim to being a great power is its immense size, and a shrinking population in its farthest reaches could call its claim on Siberiaand by extension its authority on the world stageinto question. I was traveling through this region, heading east from Irkutsk, to see how Russia is holding on to its Far East.

Kulekhov bases his argument for independence on three pillars: the geographic, economic, and cultural uniqueness of Siberia. Irkutsk, he notes, is farther from Moscow than New York is from London, and Russian involvement in Siberia is analogous to the British colonization of the New World. "We're so far away, it's easy to see that we're a different country," he said. Economically, he argues, Siberia has more trade with Asia than it does with the European part of Russia, and too much of the income from this region's vast natural resources ends up in Moscow. 

What's more, Siberians have unique "national characteristics. We are very skeptical, don't trust anyone, we're difficult to negotiate with, and we do things the way we want them to be done. We're individualists." While ethnic Russians everywhere are Orthodox Christian, in Siberia they have a syncretic bent, incorporating some elements of the Buddhist and shamanistic traditions of the indigenous peoples of Siberia. (The green-and-white OAS logo nods to that ecumenism, incorporating a cross as well as a circular form that refers to Buddhist chakras.)

The OAS is claiming its place in the long history of Siberian political independence movements, from 19th-century intellectuals who first posited the existence of a Siberian identity distinct from Russianness to a short-lived anti-Bolshevik Provisional Government of Autonomous Siberia in the chaotic days after the Russian Civil War. Every year, OAS members make a pilgrimage to the grave of one of the early heroes of Siberian independence, and during my visit, the group's newspaper ran a front-page feature on the police force of the post-civil war autonomous government. 

Kulekhov claims solidarity with other secessionist movements, which, he says, are everywhere in Russia. But at least for now, Russia is heading in the opposite direction. Regional governors used to be elected by local voters, but in 2004, then-President Vladimir Putin changed the law and decided to appoint the governors directly, greatly increasing the Kremlin's authority over Russia's far-flung regions. This would become a running theme throughout my trip: how distant Moscow rules Siberia imperiously, with little regard for the wishes of the people here. The word colony came up again and again in conversation.

Mikhail Rozhansky, a political analyst in Irkutsk, said there is no hope for Siberian independence. But its appeal is obvious. "It's understandable why people here have this dreamthey don't want to feel like they're on the edge of the world," he said. 

"Everything is centralized; *everything is a colony of Moscow.* Even regions close to Moscow still feel like they're living on the edge of Russia," Rozhansky said. Although that centralization creates resentment, it also makes it hard for strong regionalism to develop: "Ties between Irkutsk and Moscow are closer than the ties between Irkutsk and Krasnoyarsk," another Siberian city.

A key component of the Siberian character is rootlessness, Rozhansky added. The first Russian settlers came here not because it was a pleasant place to live but because they were chasing the valuable natural resources of the time: furs. And that hasn't changed, even if today the goal is work in the timber or petroleum industries. 

"Even if people came four centuries ago, they feel like life here is temporary," he said. "People have always come here because of the natural resources, not because they wanted to. And there's no tradition of compromisepeople will just leave, find a new place to live."

Where Russia meets China. (1) - By Joshua Kucera - Slate Magazine

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## gpit

*Don't Call Them Twin Cities*

BLAGOVESHCHENSK, Russia&#8212;Across the Amur River, which forms the border between Russia and China, the city of Heihe gleams. The brand-new Yuan Dun shopping center juts into the water, its name written in Cyrillic letters large enough to be seen the half-mile across the river. At night, the Vegas-like lights of Heihe's downtown reflect in the river, and a spotlight makes circles in the sky, like a car dealership trying to draw customers. 

Among Russians in Blagoveshchensk, a two-day train ride east of Irkutsk, the sight of Heihe across the water is a source of both admiration and defensiveness. During my time here I was told over and over that although Heihe looks impressive from a distance, up close the city can be dirty and chaotic. Others mentioned that that the central government in Beijing lavishes extra attention on Heihe&#8212;other cities of its size don't have those bright lights&#8212;because it's on the border. Russians have seen this sort of thing before: "It's a Potemkin village," said Nikolai Kukharenko, the Russian head of the Chinese-government-run Confucius Institute in Blagoveshchensk.* 

At the same time, Russians love Heihe. Several ferries a day carry over tourists and shoppers looking for cheap Chinese electronics and clothes, and so many people made their livelihood in the "suitcase trade"&#8212;buying cheap things in China to sell for a profit in Russia&#8212;that Blagoveshchensk's downtown has a monument to the traders, complete with an inscription that reads, "For the hard work and optimism of the entrepreneurs of the Amur," referring to the region that includes Blagoveshchensk.

For most of the last century, this border was closed. In 1969, the Soviet Union and China even fought a battle over a disputed island farther downstream. Hundreds of soldiers died. 

But it reopened in 1989, and the fact that ordinary Russians and Chinese could cross the border freely added a new wrinkle to the already complex relationship between the two powers. In particular, Russians were forced to confront an uncomfortable demographic fact: This part of their country was strategically important, badly underpopulated, and right next to a China bursting at the seams. 

The Russian Far East, the eastern edge of Siberia that borders China and the Pacific Ocean, has only 6 million people, and that number is dropping fast. Just across the border, though, the three provinces of northeastern China have about 110 million people. Meanwhile, the Russian Far East has substantial reserves of oil, natural gas, and coal, which China needs to run its supercharged economy. 

All that has led many Russians to fear that China will eventually exert control over the region. "_f we do not step up the level of activity of our work [in the Russian Far East], then in the final analysis we can lose everything," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said last year. Kukharenko of the Confucius Institute spelled it out for me: "It's a law of physics, a vacuum has to be filled," he said. "If there are no Russian people here, there will be Chinese people." 

That's why Russia has serious misgivings about its neighbors to the south, as a trip along the border makes plain. While Beijing has moved aggressively to court Russian visitors and business, Russia's central government has largely neglected the areas that act as the gateway to China. The few new buildings in Blagoveshchensk&#8212;some shopping centers and a high-rise hotel&#8212;were built by a Chinese company.

While Blagoveshchensk is relatively prosperous, at least by the standards of Russian cities of its size, Heihe has positively boomed. It was just a village in 1989, and now it has 200,000 people, about the same as Blagoveshchensk. And in contrast to Heihe's glitzy, welcoming facade, Blagoveshchensk's barely lighted waterfront promenade features a Soviet-era World War II memorial that consists of a gunship with its barrels aimed across the river, toward China. 

In one telling episode, in 2007, in an apparent attempt to play up its Russian connection and appeal to tourists, Heihe placed garbage cans that were designed to look like Russian matryoshka dolls around the city. Some excessively sensitive Russians saw this as an insult&#8212;Russian culture was trash. The mini-scandal made national TV news in Russia, and the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs protested. So Heihe's government painted the trash cans over. (I later saw panda-shaped trash cans in another Chinese city, which suggests that the matryoshkas were, in fact, a friendly gesture.) In Blagoveshchensk, meanwhile, a new government-run cultural center was originally named Albazin, after the fort built by early Russian settlers to defend the territory from China, until local historians petitioned the government to change it, saying the name was unnecessarily provocative.

In several small ways, the Russian government has made it difficult for Russians and Chinese to interact. Heihe has street signs in Russian, but there is almost no Chinese to be seen in Blagoveshchensk. While Russians can cross into Heihe visa-free for a short visit, Chinese can't do the same to Blagoveshchensk. The local government gave the license to operate ferries that cross the river to a politically connected local monopoly, which charges more than $40 for the 10-minute ride. (Chinese visiting Russia use a different company, which charges much less.) China has offered to pay for a bridge between the two cities, but the Russian side has dragged its feet for years, said Yevgeny Kuzmin, a local journalist. "It's always the Chinese side that takes the initiative," he said. 

The Russian government recently made the suitcase trade much more difficult by reducing the amount of clothes, electronics, and other consumer goods that Russians can bring back into the country duty-free and the frequency with which they can take such trips. One city official, who spoke to me on condition of anonymity, said that while Heihe's government is promoting the idea of Heihe and Blagoveshchensk as "twin cities," Blagoveshchensk's government is balking. "Heihe is always pushing this relationship more," she said. "They get a lot of money from the central government, so they have lots of proposals and ideas for programs, but we don't have the money for that."

The central government has given Blagoveshchensk funds for one thing, though: a new waterfront. Moscow has committed about $200 million for a five-year program to create a completely new waterfront facade for the city, a spokeswoman for the city told me. The plan will entail dumping sand into the river to add nearly 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate and then building brand-new high-rises along the new shore. 

I asked if the new plan called for lights as impressive as Heihe's. "We'll do our best," she said with a smile. But the World War II memorial, with the gun pointed at China? It's staying._


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## gpit

*Why Are Siberian Russians Drawn to China?*

BLAGOVESHCHENSK, Russia&#8212;I originally came to the Russian Far East with the idea that the Russian-Chinese border was roughly analogous to the U.S.-Mexican border: poor, darker-skinned people sneaking north across a river for better job opportunities, freaking out the white people. 

Poor Chinese do cross over, and they do work for less than Russians. And some of the overheated immigration rhetoric you hear in the United States exists in Russia, too, about the "zheltaya ugroza," or "yellow peril." That paranoia is much more prevalent in Moscow than in the Russian Far East, however. Here, everyone seems to have their favorite example of how other Russians exaggerate the Chinese presence. There are reports in the Moscow press that half the population of Blagoveshchensk is Chinese or that there are dozens of Chinese villages in Russia that don't appear on any map. "I've heard that the streets in Blagoveshchensk are named after Chinese generals or that there are Chinese people on the city council here," Nikolai Kukharenko, the head of the Chinese-government-run Confucius Institute, told me.

In part because the government has placed tight restriction on Chinese visitors to Russia, there is little visible Chinese presence in Blagoveshchensk&#8212;and there's more here than anywhere else in Russia. There are a couple of so-called "Chinese markets," where Chinese vendors sell cheap clothes and electronics, but you can find these all over Russia and the former Eastern bloc. There are also a good number of Chinese restaurants catering to Russian tastes: It was here that I had stir-fried potatoes for the first time. 

But you see very few Chinese people on the streets, other than a few tourists snapping photos of the statue of Lenin or of the reconstructed arch originally built for Czarevich Nicholas' visit through the Far East in 1891.

What is remarkable here, though, is the enthusiasm that Russian people&#8212;in contrast to the Russian government&#8212;display about China. While some poor Chinese citizens come to Russia for work, educated, middle-class Russians are increasingly going in the other direction. Among the group of young, English-speaking Russians I fell in with in Blagoveshchensk, nearly all of them worked in some capacity with China. Many of them had lived there. One, Sergey, was home from his job in Shanghai, and he raved about how much friendlier, more open, and optimistic Chinese people were compared with Russians. 

One feature of the Russian-Chinese relationship seemed especially telling: Cross-border marriages are overwhelmingly between Chinese men and Russian women. Much of this has to do with demographics&#8212;Russia has a surplus of women, while China has too many men. But as one Russian woman told me, "Chinese men are kinder and more attentive to their wives. And they usually have more money."

In the international relations department of Amur State University in Blagoveshchensk, the number of students studying Chinese increases every year, and more Russian students now learn Chinese as their first foreign language than English. The department is closing its European studies track and shutting down German and French. Soon, it will offer only Chinese and English.

"China is the destiny of Siberia, our present and future depends in every respect on what happens in China," Victor Dyatlov, a professor at Irkutsk State University and a top authority on Russian-Chinese relations, told me. "The only direction we can move in is integration and cooperation between Russia and China. But we don't know what form that integration will take."

But this local integration with China doesn't mean much to the larger picture, Dyatlov said. "The future of Siberia and its people is defined not by the people here but in Moscow," he said. "What people in Siberia think isn't that important. Siberia is the national treasure, and the people here are just meant to help the government exploit these resources."

Indeed, many people complain that Moscow treats the Russian Far East like a cash cow to be exploited for export income to China and cares little about how people here live. In February 2009, Russia and China signed a 20-year, $25 billion oil deal, and by the end of that term China could be getting one-quarter of its imported oil from Russia and Central Asia. Most of that oil will come from eastern Siberia, through a pipeline whose original route veered dangerously close to famously pristine Lake Baikal, prompting protests from Siberians. Russia also recently started selling electricity to China from the Bureya Dam, on a tributary of the Amur, at a price cheaper than Russians pay for electricity in Blagoveshchensk. "We don't like it," said Svetlana Kosikhina, the dean of the international relations department at Amur State. "Electricity is expensive here, and if we sell it to China, it's going to be even more expensive."

Even locals admit to a significant amount of skepticism about China's intentions toward the Russian Far East. Kukharenko&#8212;as director of the Confucius Institute here, he's an employee of the Chinese government&#8212;said he assumes that "a lot" of the Chinese students in Blagoveshchensk are spies, "especially the ones who are older and who speak good Russian already." There are also rumors of a secret museum in Heihe&#8212;shown only to Chinese tourists&#8212;that displays maps showing Chinese control over the Russian Far East. 

"We're not afraid, but we're wary. We just don't understand what they're going to do. It's a system that could rise up at any moment and attack us," Kosikhina said. "We have a saying here: 'Pessimists study Chinese.' "


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## gpit

*Vladivostok's Used-Car Dealers Are Mad as Hell*

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia&#8212;The most remarkable thing about Vladivostok is how thoroughly Russian it is. It's 4,000 miles from Moscow, but only 600 miles from Tokyo and just a couple of hours' drive from both China and North Korea. Still, you'd be hard-pressed to find many signs of Asian-ness amid the concrete block apartment buildings, Soviet war memorials, and overwhelmingly white faces. My translator, a freelance tour guide, said her charges are often disappointed by how "un-Asian" Vladivostok looks. 

Russia's firm control over this remote outpost has to be counted as a great achievement, first by the Russian Empire, which founded Vladivostok in 1859 and made it the terminus of the Trans-Siberian Railway, and then by the Soviets, who made the city a naval base, closed it off to foreigners, and gave it the distinctive look it has today: concrete high-rises perched on the lush, steep hills that overlook the Pacific Ocean. 

But today, Vladivostok's identity as a Russian city is undergoing a transformation. The city represents Russia's purported desire to open up to Asia&#8212;Vladimir Putin has dubbed Vladivostok the "Gateway to the Pacific." And Moscow has promised to back up that rhetoric, choosing Vladivostok to host the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in 2012 and undertaking several ambitious new infrastructure projects, like business-class hotels and new bridges and roads, to help the city prepare for the event. 

But in front of that "gateway" are some metaphorical barbed wire and guard dogs, as Moscow tries to figure out how to maintain its control over this strategic part of Russia in the face of a declining population and a rising China.

The European part of Russia can feel pretty far away. When Vladivostok's businesspeople and bureaucrats show up to work at 9 a.m., their colleagues in Moscow are sound asleep&#8212;it's 2 a.m. there&#8212;which makes it difficult to conduct business with the capital. Recently, President Dmitry Medvedev proposed a reduction in the number of time zones from 11 to three or four.

The government has tried other schemes to beef up ties between the Russian Far East and the rest of the country. One, designed to shore up the Russian population here, encourages ethnic Russians living in former Soviet republics, particularly in Central Asia, to move to strategically important but depopulated areas, most of which are in the Far East. 

Another program tries to encourage people in the Far East to visit the capital by halving airfares on flights to Moscow. For whatever reason, the discounts are available only to people under 24 or over 60. Or, as Svetlana Kosikhina, the dean of the international relations department at Amur State University, put it, "The young, who don't have enough money to travel, and the old, who aren't healthy enough to travel."

Unfortunately, whatever effect these measures have had on winning over hearts and minds has been far outweighed by Moscow's attempts to shut down car imports from Japan.

It's not quite accurate to say that there is nothing Asian about Vladivostok&#8212;if you look carefully at the cars on the street, you will see that well over 95 percent of them have the steering wheel on the right-hand side, even though traffic, as in the rest of Russia, travels on the right side of the road. That's because the cars are from Japan, the fruit of Vladivostok's most dynamic industry: used-car sales. 

Until the beginning of 2009, hundreds of thousands of cars were imported every year from Japan to Vladivostok, where they were sold on to buyers in other parts of Russia. This trade provided people in Vladivostok with a good living (boosters say 100,000 of the city's 600,000 residents were employed in some kind of car-related work) and with cheap, high-quality cars. 

(I asked several drivers of right-hand-drive cars if they felt it was dangerous&#8212;passing, for example, would seem to become much more treacherous when you're on the right side of the car. But every single one of them claimed that the cars were perfectly safe. One person even argued that right-hand-drive cars were safer, because when you parallel parked at a curb, you got out at the curb rather than in traffic. Official government statistics tell a different story, however: Right-hand-drive cars are twice as likely to be in an accident.)

Nevertheless, the Russian government is cracking down in an attempt to bolster the Russian domestic auto industry. At the beginning of 2009, the government increased customs duties on imported cars, prompting protests so serious that the government flew in riot police from Moscow to break them up. 

At the beginning of 2010, the government is planning to prohibit the importation of cars without Vehicle Identification Numbers. Cars produced for the Japanese market don't have them. The 2009 fee increases "hurt this business, but the new rules will kill it," said Alex, a car dealer at Vladivostok's Green Corner, the open-air car market on the outskirts of Vladivostok that got its name from the large amounts of money that change hands there. 

One company that imports cars from Japan, VladTrek, has cut its work force from 200 to 30 over the last year, and it sells only about a tenth the cars it used to, Roman Sultanov, the company's vice general director, told me. He received me in his office, which is dominated by a huge schedule of car auctions across Japan. The company is now shifting gears to import parts for the cars already in Russia, he said, but that is a far less lucrative business. 

In all my stops before Vladivostok, I had heard about the problems with the car import business; the stories were usually offered up as Exhibit A in the case for "Why Moscow Doesn't Care About the Far East." As on America's frontier, there is a bit of a libertarian streak here, and government interference has stirred up a lot of resentment. "We [in the Far East] like to be independent," Sultanov said. "We don't need help, but we don't want the government to interfere with our business."

The fallout over car imports has had a clear political impact. In stark contrast to my previous stops in Russia, where I often faced reticent interviewees and dark warnings about the KGB, in Vladivostok, people freely and frequently volunteered slanderous opinions of the Russian government. 

I heard anti-government sentiment all over town, but understandably, it's most prominent at the Green Corner, where business was down so much that there were more dealers sunning their paunchy bellies in the warm September sun than attending to customers. 

One dealer told me that Putin shut down the Japanese imports because he has stock in AvtoVAZ, Russia's main car manufacturer, and thus loses money from Japanese imports. "Putin says, 'Why do I have to care about the Russian Far East? Just one Lada factory has more voters than the whole Far East,' " another, Andrey, told me. A third, Dmitry, told me that the government is just trying to horn in on the action: "This business will always exist, because people want used cars. But the question is, who will control it? It has been a private business until now, but probably some government people are going to come and run it."

Sultanov said flatly, "I'm against Putin. He's not smart, he's like Hugo Ch&#225;vez or Alexander Lukashenko or the president of some African banana republic. People in other Russian cities don't know anything; they just watch TV. We can go abroad and see real freedom."

And he said something I had already heard several times in Russia: "Even in Communist China, it's more free than here." He described how in China, new businesses are exempt from taxes for three years, and interest rates are a fraction of the Russia rate. "In China, it's getting easier to do business. Here, it's getting harder."


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## gpit

*China: Russia's Land of Opportunity*

SUIFENHE, China&#8212;In 1989, the opening of the border between Russia and China raised Russian fears of a "yellow peril": millions of Chinese citizens flooding north into relatively unpopulated, but richly endowed, Siberia. Some contrarian publications even went so far as to suggest that Russia should just accept the inevitable and sell the whole territory to China. 

Demographically, it makes sense that Chinese people would flock to Russia. Look at it in economic terms, though: China's economy is booming, and its prospects seem limitless. Meanwhile, Russia is highly dependent on uncertain oil and natural gas reserves. Professionals already make more money in China than they do in Russia, and as China's economy grows, blue-collar wages will likely outpace Russian pay. So, rather than Chinese people moving to Russia, isn't it more likely that Russians would move to China?

I asked this question of many Russians in the Far East, and I usually got the same answer: It's already happening. Thus far, the Russian migration to China seems to be only a trickle. But it's not hard to imagine that this is just the start. 

The energy in Suifenhe, a relative backwater, is so much greater than in Vladivostok&#8212;a city three times the size&#8212;that taking the four-hour bus trip across the border is like switching from black-and-white to color. The road from Vladivostok becomes progressively worse the closer you get to the border, and the land is almost empty of people. As soon as you cross the border into China, there is a massive shopping mall with red cupolas, an apparent nod to Russian architecture, and an international-standard Holiday Inn. 

The mall is part of what was supposed to be a joint Chinese-Russian free-trade zone, where people would be able to come to shop and tour visa-free. But all Russia has built on its side of the border is a church, which Chinese tourists photograph through the chain-link fence. 

The day I arrived was one of the biggest celebrations in recent Chinese history: the 60th anniversary of the establishment of the People's Republic of China. Still, at the many construction projects around the city's center, workers were on the job until after dark. I thought back to Vladivostok, where a huge suspension bridge is under construction. It is supposed to be ready by 2012, when the city plays host to the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit. Ostensibly, this is a priority project overseen from Moscow, but when I mentioned to my translator that I hadn't seen anyone working on it, she smiled. "Yes," she said. "We notice that all the time."

Suifenhe's economy is driven by Russian shoppers on package tours, and the shops in the city center all have signs in the Cyrillic alphabet. One sporting goods store was called CSKA, after Moscow's legendary soccer team. I flipped through the T-shirts on sale at another boutique and saw shirts advertising the 2014 Sochi Olympics and United Russia, Vladimir Putin's political party. 

But in addition to the many Russian tourists, there is a growing population of Russian expatriates living in Suifenhe. One, a journalist named Stanislav Bystritski, is a former reporter for a Vladivostok TV station. He moved here five years ago and produces two Russian-language shows on local Suifenhe TV, one oriented toward Russian tourists and one for Chinese people who want to learn about Russia and the Russian language. 

As he showed me around town, an elderly Chinese man greeted us with a smile and said "Horosho," which means good in Russian. It seemed a strange thing to say, but Bystritski told me it was a common greeting by Chinese people here, because it sounds like it could be a Chinese word and is easy for Mandarin speakers to pronounce. 

He echoed what I had heard in Blagoveshchensk and Vladivostok&#8212;Russians come to China because it is easier to get a good job and easier to do business. "So many Russian businessmen say it's easier to work here, there is so much less corruption and bureaucracy," he said. 

Suifenhe's government once had plans to build a Russian quarter, reportedly with the expectation that up to 50,000 Russians might relocate here, though those plans appear to have been abandoned. Bystritski said that the rules on apartment ownership by foreigners have been loosened, so the government may have decided that there is no longer a need for a special Russian district. (We couldn't find out for sure. Bystritski set up a meeting with a member of Suifenhe's local government to talk about that and other issues involving Russian migrants. The official apparently assumed I would be Russian, and when Bystritski introduced me as an American, the official's eyes widened somewhat cartoonishly. He probably wasn't the best person, he said, and in the end I couldn't get anyone from the local government to talk to me.)

Still, I was able to meet several Russians who had moved here. Petr is building a small complex of apartment buildings for Russians. The Suifenhe government is so enthusiastic about the project that it is bulldozing the homes of the Chinese people who currently live in the area. 

Viktor, a Russian engineer who moved here at the beginning of 2008, is working on a pollution-control technology that has excited more interest in China than it did in Russia. "The Chinese are more interested in innovative projects, so there are more opportunities here," he said. His wife, Natasha, works as a technician with Suifenhe's pioneering (and, to a civil libertarian, rather ominous) "electronic security" system, in which surveillance cameras all over town are controlled from a spotless control room in a glass-fronted building called the Suifenhe Cyberport. She says she wants her 4-year-old son to be raised "in Chinese traditions," and she is making sure he learns Chinese. 

"People are so friendly here, I feel so comfortable," she said. "This is my new home."

(the end)

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## conworldus

Russia is insecure for sure. It needs China more than anyone else, but deep inside it admires the "whiteness" of western europe


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## gpit

The Yuan Dun shopping center in Heihe, China, as seen from across the river in Blagoveshchensk, Russia.






Two Russians look across the river from Blagoveshchensk, Russia, to Heihe, China.






Construction on a new waterfront development in Blagoveshchensk, Russia; city officials hope it will compete with the impressive facade of Heihe, China, across the river.






A monument to "suitcase traders," Russians who travel to China to buy cheap goods to resell in Russia. The inscription reads: "For the hard work and optimism of the entrepreneurs of the Amur."

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## gpit

A reconstructed arch in Blagoveshchensk, Russia, originally built for Czarevich Nicholas' visit through the Russian Far East in 1891.






A Russian TV reporter interviews a Chinese photographer at a photo exhibition in Blagoveshchensk, Russia.





The "Green Corner" in Vladivostok, the city's open-air used-car market. The city had thrived on the trade in imported Japanese cars until the Russian government shut down the trade.





A Chinese tourist poses at a historic fortress in Vladivostok.

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## gpit

A shop for tourists on the Russian-Chinese border at Suifenhe, China.





A sign advertising a proposed border trade complex on the Russian-Chinese border at Suifenhe, China.





The central square in Suifenhe, China, is dominated by shops selling cheap clothing and electronics to Russian day trippers.





A sex shop, with a sign in Russian, in Suifenhe, China.

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## globall

I would like to discuss with you about these two countries, China and Russia and would like to know your view as to which one is more powerful than the other. And whose future is more secure to become a global superpower in the near future. China has evolved as a great country since the last two decades and its economy is going to surpass the economy of the USA within a few years. Militarily it has become much advanced but still lags behind Russia which it would surely surpass if current trends continue. But China risks population unrest. Russia has attained stability under Putin and has reemerged as a great power if not a superpower. It has huge gas and oil reserves and thus it has a lot of influence in Europe which is dependent on its gas. Its economy is rising and technologically its advanced. Russia was able to invade Georgia and declare its two regions as independent countries. Now Ukraine is the last battle which Russia is desperate to win. What do you think? Which country is more powerful and become the other global superpower? China or Russia?


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## Kansu

None of them
China depends on USA economy. If this global finance system collapses, the first country which will suffer the most will be the china. And even now it's economy gives alarm. china looks like a paper tiger for me. a tiger but made of paper. not real one...

Russia has a huge demographic problem. the population growth is below 0. Also Russia still couldnt start 3. industrial age reforms. What does it mean? they still need china and japan for task computers and other high tech electronic equipment they need for their defence industry. Russia still sells oil and gas like arab countries to balance its economy. for how long more they can go on like this? Problems in caucasus, the cold war against china for central asia, poor economy and so on... i dont think that russia may survive too long. either they will try expand against china in central asia once more, or they will collapse. Money and energy is everything in our age.
Also china may have some domestic problems. westerns may interfare in china's domestic affairs by using the ethnic groups like Uyghurs. And every year chinese ecnomy should expand %8 in order to provide job opportunities for youth. So is it really easy in this financial system? in this global crisis? 
if you wish lets talk about chinese economy first 
Best regards
Kansu


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## ptldM3

Kansu said:


> None of them
> 
> Russia has a huge demographic problem. the population growth is below 0. Also Russia still couldnt start 3. industrial age reforms. What does it mean? they still need china and japan for task computers and other *high tech electronic equipment they need for their defence industry*. Kansu



When did Russia purchase anything from China that they applied to their military. Does the SU-35, S-400, T-90, or PakFa, for example, have Chinese technology in it?

Also what's wrong with buying Japanese computers? The whole world buys them.

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## conworldus

Russia has the resources and better military technologies (although China is catching up fast and leading in a number of areas) and China has the man power and better civilian technologies (energy, production, electronics, transportation, etc). Russia and China are better off working together. Russia sells oil and gas and timber to China and buys consumer goods and infrastructure projects (the rail agreement will soon be signed).

Basically I don't see any point to compare when the countries complement each other, and have been working closely despite having such historic animosity. This speaks volume of how future will go. Both are and will be superpowers.




globall said:


> I would like to discuss with you about these two countries, China and Russia and would like to know your view as to which one is more powerful than the other. And whose future is more secure to become a global superpower in the near future. China has evolved as a great country since the last two decades and its economy is going to surpass the economy of the USA within a few years. Militarily it has become much advanced but still lags behind Russia which it would surely surpass if current trends continue. But China risks population unrest. Russia has attained stability under Putin and has reemerged as a great power if not a superpower. It has huge gas and oil reserves and thus it has a lot of influence in Europe which is dependent on its gas. Its economy is rising and technologically its advanced. Russia was able to invade Georgia and declare its two regions as independent countries. Now Ukraine is the last battle which Russia is desperate to win. What do you think? Which country is more powerful and become the other global superpower? China or Russia?

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## Sino-PakFriendship

China's economy mediumly depends on USA, but militrary mediumly depends on Russia.

But China still runs in her own road!

1949 - Communism save China
1979 - Capitalism save China
1989 - China save Communism 
2009 - China save Capitalism

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## S-2

*"Russia has a huge demographic problem. the population growth is below 0."*

Russia isn't the only country experiencing a population implosion.

Nicholas Eberstadt On China's 4-2-1 Problem-FORA-TV


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## azfar

^ well said


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## SinoIndusFriendship

Actually Russia's population has started growing again. Latest reports put the number at 140 million, up from 137 million. The problem is really the ethnic tensions and social unrest.

Conworldus, wisely said. There is no need for these comparisons when it is being (mis)used to create tension. Likewise, PRC does not engage in these immature comparisons, it's only use armchair generals who enjoy it.


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## Kansu

ptldM3 said:


> When did Russia purchase anything from China that they applied to their military. Does the SU-35, S-400, T-90, or PakFa, for example, have Chinese technology in it?
> 
> Also what's wrong with buying Japanese computers? The whole world buys them.




in fact i was talking about industrial technologies for china. but japan is different. You used to buy these computers during the age of the soviet empire. and guess which is the greatest ally of the japan in those days? Can it be USA? So please be objective while you discuss about military affairs. if usa didnt allow japan to sell you all that stuff, you wouldnt be able to fly even a single new generation aircraft. nevermind the satelite systems...
So shall we go on discussing about russian ''electronics and aviation'' and other high tech. toys? if you depend on another country like japan for your ''proud army'', you cant be considered as %100 independent.
i know, in this global world it is silly to talk about % 100 independence. but military technology is a key thing and it can be the salvation of a country. Now please be objective, japan american alliance and japanese computers for soviet defence industry... is this logical?


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## globall

Kansu said:


> in fact i was talking about industrial technologies for china. but japan is different. You used to buy these computers during the age of the soviet empire. and guess which is the greatest ally of the japan in those days? Can it be USA? So please be objective while you discuss about military affairs. if usa didnt allow japan to sell you all that stuff, you wouldnt be able to fly even a single new generation aircraft. nevermind the satelite systems...
> So shall we go on discussing about russian ''electronics and aviation'' and other high tech. toys? if you depend on another country like japan for your ''proud army'', you cant be considered as %100 independent.
> i know, in this global world it is silly to talk about % 100 independence. but military technology is a key thing and it can be the salvation of a country. Now please be objective, japan american alliance and japanese computers for soviet defence industry... is this logical?






You are right but I think you know that Russia has all the potential to produce the defense related computers and electronics. Not only defense related but consumer computers and electronics too. At present may be Russia is concentrating on making its house in order. I think in a few years we may see both defense related computers and electronics as well as consumer computers and electronics with "Made in Russia" printed on them. Also some time ago Russia was trying to create its own operating system to be used throughout Russia on PCs instead of Windows but since some time the project has halted. May be we may see a Russian operating system for PCs too in near future which could compete with Microsoft Windows.


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## huanghai

Too high population in our China there are! How wealthy would China be if we were to have merely half the current population!

Let Indians be proud their dream of 1st ranking in population in the world comes true. 

From the bottom of our heart, Chinese are not willing to become a super power. Our only wish is to liberate Taiwan. Never a power or force could be an impediment to weaken our determination.


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## Patriot

China will need 30-40 more years to transform its economy..then the products china will be making will be used by Local consumers.Then China will really shine!It has a huge potentional due to large number of population and thousands of chinese are getting education abroad and they will return..So i'd say China will need 30-50 years to reach Soviet Union status.


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## ptldM3

Kansu said:


> in fact i was talking about industrial technologies for china. but japan is different. You used to buy these computers during the age of the soviet empire. and guess which is the greatest ally of the japan in those days? Can it be USA? So please be objective while you discuss about military affairs. *if usa didnt allow japan to sell you all that stuff, you wouldnt be able to fly even a single new generation aircraft. nevermind the satelite systems...* So shall we go on discussing about russian ''electronics and aviation'' and other high tech. toys? if you depend on another country like japan for your ''proud army'', you cant be considered as &#37;100 independent.
> i know, in this global world it is silly to talk about % 100 independence. but military technology is a key thing and it can be the salvation of a country. Now please be objective, japan american alliance and japanese computers for soviet defence industry... is this logical?



 1. we make our own computers, we even made laptops 20 years ago, and our laptops were extremely small for the period>>> English Russia First Russian Laptop
2. We haven't been using Japanese consumer good for very long.
3. How did we built SAMS, fighters, rockets, satelites...ect, for 50+ years? Japan, our enemy, sure as hell didn't sell electronics to us back then.
5. How does buying Japanese laptops help us make advanced weapons? You think we take out the microprocessors and stick them in our weopons and walla 

PS Russia and Japan are still technically at war (agreements never signed). We had poor relations with them even ten years ago. Case in point, the Japanese wouldn't sell anything to us that could be used as weopons, against them.

We also use American computers...


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## Kansu

it is useless to go on this subject with you my russian friend. 
let me remind you the specifications of the computer

''According to people who used them the specifications were as following: 

CPU, *Intel 8086 clone*, with the speed of 4.47 Mhz''

So it is a clone cpu. So what? everybody who studied on micro processors knows that building a cpu is not so easy. Russia cant manufacture even cement at a good quality... how can they build such complex things ? even if they do, how reliable can they be?
Also i dont make up this by my own mind. i know very well that soviets used japanese computers for army needs... if your nomanklatura dont keep this information as a secret i m sure you may find it.

No need to go on this dull conversation here. talking with you here on this subject looks like trying to catch the fish with hand. 
What i want to say is: USA wanted a cold war and USA gave an end to it.

ps: i also saw moscow  and once i bought an ATI TUL 4890 for a friend of mine. dont worry, i know what you use... by the way i use an apple.


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## gpit

S-2 said:


> *"Russia has a huge demographic problem. the population growth is below 0."*
> 
> Russia isn't the only country experiencing a population implosion.
> 
> Nicholas Eberstadt On China's 4-2-1 Problem-FORA-TV





Yet another facade of twisting China, if not daemonizing it, meant for those who are illiterate or semi-illiterate in this aspect.

This is how an ordinary knowledgeable person would say in brief:


> Contrary to popular belief, this so-called "one child policy" isn't really a one child per person sort of policy at all. Family planing advocates delayed marriage and child bearing, fewer and healthier births, and one child per couple in the extremely urbanized areas, such as Beijing and Shanghai. *A couple in agricultural and pastoral areas may have a second child, and an even more flexible policy is held for farmers and herdsmen with difficulties such as a shortage of labor power.* In such areas that are inhabited by a small population of ethnic minorities, *there are no restrictions at all*. There are also no specific requirements in Tibet for family planning. So in reality, the "one child policy" really applies to only the already densely populated coastal areas.
> 
> The Policy



If you know some reality in China, it is really hard for the government to control the birth as market economy starts to flourish: with cash at hand you can buy what you demand. People even say, with those unregistered children, Chinese population is actually 1.5 billion by now. 

In big cities like Shanghai, DINK families are no strange. That would be 4-2-0, if you wish.


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## Hussein

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> China's economy mediumly depends on USA, but militrary mediumly depends on Russia.
> 
> But China still runs in her own road!
> 
> 1949 - Communism save China
> 1979 - Capitalism save China
> 1989 - China save Communism
> 2009 - China save Capitalism



lol it's a joke?
if americans would not buy your products your economy would be a disaster. you are inter dependant. both dependant.


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## chinapakistan

Hussein said:


> lol it's a joke?
> if americans would not buy your products your economy would be a disaster. you are inter dependant. both dependant.



Your "if" doese not make any sense. If your "if" will work i think US may have done it before you post your useless "if" here. Global economy doese not work like baby fighting.

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## Hussein

chinapakistan said:


> Your "if" doese not make any sense. If your "if" will work i think US may have done it before you post your useless "if" here. Global economy doese not work like baby fighting.



Is there any point in your message?
You are showing me that China doesn't need USA? 
So pls come with smart articles or any evidence, not just a stupid nationalist belief that you are the best in the world.


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## ASQ-1918

Comparision regarding? China needs more years to catch up.


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## super_star

I have not read entire thread. But there is no comparison at all.

China is a paper tiger. Like holding USA doller paper debt

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## SinoIndusFriendship

Please don't compare China with USA, or China with Russia, or what not. Afterall, day after day, week after week, months on months, years following years there are Hindus to keep on comparing India with China! 

Since Indians like to compare themselves against other so much, let them compare themselves versus:

India vs. USA

India vs. Pakistan

India vs. Russia

India vs. China


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## Honor

super_star said:


> I have not read entire thread. But there is no comparison at all.
> 
> China is a paper tiger. Like holding USA doller paper debt



The paper tiger can distroy US economy if she chose to! Of course, China saving will be vaporized.


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## Honor

ASQ-1918 said:


> Comparision regarding? China needs more years to catch up.



China economy is 4X of Russia? What are we comparing?


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## super_star

Honor said:


> The paper tiger can distroy US economy if she chose to! Of course, China saving will be vaporized.



Only thing you can do buy more US debt to look the paper more colorful.


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## applesauce

super_star said:


> Only thing you can do buy more US debt to look the paper more colorful.



funny, ur country cant even do that, it can only whine


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## super_star

applesauce said:


> funny, ur country cant even do that, it can only whine



We don't need that. Please keep buying till you are broke.


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## conworldus

applesauce said:


> funny, ur country cant even do that, it can only whine



Don't feed the trolls.


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## xuxu1457

super_star said:


> We don't need that. Please keep buying till you are broke.



Right,because India gov has no money except buying weapons


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## amarnath

xuxu1457 said:


> Right,because India gov has no money except buying weapons



No money? Dont forget that we are ranked 4th in purchasing power...


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## xuxu1457

amarnath said:


> No money? Dont forget that we are ranked 4th in purchasing power...



Ya,but 44th in production power,your money was all used for buying,so India lack money

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## applesauce

amarnath said:


> No money? Dont forget that we are ranked 4th in purchasing power...



and since it buys from external powers instead of own production ppp means diddly squat


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## Honor

applesauce said:


> and since it buys from external powers instead of own production ppp means diddly squat



Well said! India is a joke without external help!

When is the debate become India and China?


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## Hafizzz

> North Korea As Pretext: U.S. Builds Asian Military Alliance Against China And Russia
> North Korea As Pretext: U.S. Builds Asian Military Alliance Against China And Russia
> 
> On December 1 the U.S. and its South Korean military ally completed four days of naval maneuvers in the Yellow Sea where China claims a 200-mile exclusive economic zone.
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S. dispatched the 97,000-ton USS George Washington nuclear-powered aircraft supercarrier for the exercise, accompanied by a carrier strike group consisting of a guided missile cruiser and three guided missile destroyers. The American deployment included 6,000 sailors and 75 aircraft. South Korea supplied destroyers, corvettes, frigates, support ships, anti-submarine aircraft and an undisclosed amount of military personnel.
> 
> The war games, which included live-fire shooting and bombing drills, were the latest in a series of U.S.-led military exercises in South Korea and the seas to its east and west beginning in July of this year:
> 
> From July 25-28 the U.S. conducted a joint military exercise with South Korea codenamed Invincible Spirit in the Sea of Japan/East Sea with the involvement of 20 warships including the USS George Washington supercarrier, 200 warplanes including F-22 Raptor stealth fighters and 8,000 troops.
> 
> In August the U.S. and South Korea conducted this years Ulchi Freedom Guardian military exercise, the world's largest command and control simulation drill, in the latter country with 30,000 U.S. and 56,000 South Korean troops participating.
> 
> In early September Washington and Seoul held an anti-submarine warfare exercise in the Yellow Sea with two U.S. guided missile destroyers and a fast attack submarine and two South Korean destroyers.
> 
> Only the August exercise was a routine one, the latest in a series of Ulchi Freedom Guardian maneuvers held over several decades.
> 
> On the day the most recent military exercise ended, December 1, it was announced that the U.S. and South Korea will hold another military exercise this month. [1] The following day "South Korea...readied plans for more live-fire drills as a warning to North Korea and scheduled talks with the United States and Japan on dealing with [North Korea]...." [2] The armed forces of the Republic of Korea will begin five days of artillery drills on December 6 in 29 locations, including on border islands in the Yellow Sea.
> 
> On the same day Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will meet with the foreign ministers of South Korea and Japan in Washington, D.C., in a rebuff to China and Russia, which are partners in the six-party talks - along with the U.S., Japan, South Korea and North Korea - that have been held since 2003 after North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This despite China calling for an emergency meeting of representatives to the six-nation negotiations and winning North Korea's agreement to rejoin the long-stalled process. On December 2 Russia announced it was ready to participate in emergency talks with the six-country group.
> 
> Just as Russia and China were excluded from the U.S.-led investigation of the Cheonan sinking earlier this year, so now they are being brushed aside in favor of a confrontational U.S.-Japan-South Korea initiative.
> 
> Two days after the American-led naval exercise in the Yellow Sea concluded, the U.S. began a week-long exercise with Japan off the second nation's islands near the South Korean coast. The war games, Keen Sword 2011, involve 60 warships, 400 aircraft and 44,000 troops and are the largest-ever joint U.S.-Japan military drills. Kyodo News disclosed that "The maneuvers will be carried out to practice for guarding against ballistic missile attacks and for defending remote Japanese islands," the latter an allusion to a Chinese-Japanese territorial dispute in the East China Sea. Standard Missile-3 interceptors on U.S. and Japanese Aegis class destroyers deployed in the Sea of Japan and Patriot Advanced Capability-3 anti-ballistic missiles currently stationed at bases from the north to the south of Japan, Hokkaido to Okinawa, will be employed.
> 
> In the words of an Air Force major assigned to U.S. Forces Japan headquarters: "There's going to be naval operations, air operations, land - pretty much the full spectrum of military activities. There is going to be a lot of flying, some movement involving the aircraft carrier George Washington." [3]
> 
> South Korea's military has been invited to attend the exercise as an observer, as Australian, British and French officers were on board USS George Washington for the exercise in the Yellow Sea that ended two days ago. In the words of Australian Minister Stephen Smith, "We had an official on board the USS George Washington as essentially a show of support." [4] Japanese military personnel observed the Invincible Spirit naval exercise in the Sea of Japan in July.
> 
> As a recent Russian commentary characterized the now constant American military activity in East Asia - exemplified by the deployment of the George Washington supercarrier in waters off China's and Russia's coasts and island possessions in the Sea of Japan in July, in the South China Sea in August, in the Yellow Sea in November and at the confluence of the Sea of Japan and East China Sea this month - "the Pentagon [is] flexing its muscles against both North Korea and China." [5]
> 
> And not only in respect to conventional forces. On November 22 South Korean Defense Minister Kim Tae-young responded to a question by one of his nation's members of parliament on "whether the government intends to consider the redeployment of US tactical nuclear weapons in South Korea...in the affirmative." [6]
> 
> Although the sinking of a South Korean corvette, Cheonan, in March has been used in the intervening nine months as the rationale for U.S.-led war games in the seas of East Asia, that incident in no manner accounts for joint American-Vietnamese naval drills in the South China Sea in August, visits to Australia and nine other Asia-Pacific nations by President Barack Obama, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen early last month [7], and the overall diplomatic offensive and military maneuvers Washington is intensifying in the region with each passing day.
> 
> Three months after the sinking of the Cheonan, President Obama accused his counterpart, Chinese President Hu Jintao, of "willful blindness" in relation to North Korea in what was reported as a "blunt" conversation during the Group of 20 summit in Toronto on June 27. [8]
> 
> Since North Korea's shelling of the South Korean island of Yeonpyeong on November 23, the U.S. has intensified pressure on China to rein in North Korea. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mullen recently told a Washington, D.C. think tank audience that "Beijing's call for consultations will not be a substitute for action," and, in reference to China's military modernization program: "I am concerned about some of the high-end capabilities that they clearly are developing. I don't underestimate them in terms of capability. Some of the specific capabilities are very clearly focused on and pointed at the United States of America, and they are anti-access capabilities." [9] That is, China has the temerity to develop defensive capabilities in the face of U.S. military presence off its coasts.
> 
> The U.S. is exploiting North Korea as a decoy to target China and is supporting Japan in territorial conflicts with both China and Russia [10] as components of a broader strategy to renew, enlarge and integrate military alliances throughout the Asia-Pacific area. [11]
> 
> Washington recognizes the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, administered by Japan, as Japanese, but also refers to the Southern Kuril Islands, which since 1945 have belonged to Russia (and its predecessor state, the Soviet Union) as Japanese territories.
> 
> Hillary Clinton's visit to New Zealand last month resulted in the signing of the Wellington Declaration committing the two countries to a new strategic partnership, annual military consultations and a resumption of joint military exercises. In fact what Clinton secured was the revival of the Cold War-era Australia, New Zealand, United States (ANZUS) Security Treaty which was signed during the Korean War and invoked to recruit Australian and New Zealand troops for the Vietnam War.
> 
> An Indian commentator said of the top U.S. diplomat's achievement: "Clinton was not only given a traditional New Zealand Maoris welcome called Powhiri, the greatest gift that she could bring back to Washington was the release of the New Zealand Defense White Paper 2010 two days before her arrival. The White Paper envisaged Wellingtons greater presence in the South Pacific and strengthening the alliance with Washington and Canberra." [12]
> 
> Kevin Rudd, until recently Australia's prime minister and now its foreign minister, affirmed on November 28 that "Australia could be drawn in to any military conflict on the Korean peninsula under its alliance with the US." In his own words, "I...simply state the obvious: that under our alliance with the United States, Article 4 of the ANZUS Treaty is clear about our requirements to act to meet the common danger...." [13]
> 
> Similarly, a briefing note prepared for Defence Minister Peter MacKay of Canada revealed that "If war breaks out on the Korean peninsula, Canada could become embroiled due to a half-century-old United Nations military alliance," the United Nations Command formed by the U.S. and its allies in the Korean War after the armistice was signed in 1953. The memo states that although the main fighting formation that would lead military operations against North Korea is the joint U.S.-South Korea Combined Forces Command, that joint command includes under its strategic organizational umbrella the legacy United Nations Command. [14]
> 
> Other members of the United Nations Command are Canada's fellow NATO member states the U.S., Britain, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, Turkey and Luxembourg; ANZUS members Australia and New Zealand; the Philippines and Thailand, with which the U.S. has defense alliances - and military assistance obligations - comparable to those it has with Australia, Japan, New Zealand and South Korea.
> 
> As with the reactivation of trilateral ANZUS military obligations, so with the U.S.-Japanese mutual military assistance agreement. On October 27 Clinton held a press conference in Hawaii with Japanese Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara and when asked about an island chain contested by Japan and China - the Senkakus to Tokyo, the Diaoyus to Beijing - said, the Senkakus fall within the scope of Article 5 of the 1960 U.S.-Japan Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security. This is part of the larger commitment that the United States has made to Japans security. We consider the Japanese-U.S. alliance one of the most important alliance partnerships we have anywhere in the world and we are committed to our obligations to protect the Japanese.
> 
> She also said the Washington-Tokyo alliance "is the cornerstone of American strategic engagement in the Asia Pacific." [15]
> 
> Two weeks later President Obama was in Yokohama, Japan for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit and told Prime Minister Naoto Kan that the U.S.-Japan alliance is the cornerstone of American strategic engagement in the Asia Pacific and the commitment of the United States to the defense of Japan is unshakable. [16]
> 
> Clinton's and Obama's phraseology was identical.
> 
> In late October Clinton, flanked by her Japanese counterpart, said: "This year, we celebrate the 50th anniversary of our alliance, which was forged at the height of the Cold War," in reference to the aforementioned Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan of 1960. [17]
> 
> In advance of the Keen Sword 2011 U.S.-Japan war games currently underway, Air Force Lieutenant General Hawk Carlisle, who is directing the exercise on the American side, stated in the middle of last month: "In 1960, Japan and the U.S. signed the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security. Participation in Keen Sword further enhances the Japan-U.S. alliance, which remains a key strategic relationship in the Asia-Pacific region." [18]
> 
> Clinton's spokesman, the State Department's Philip Crowley, backed Japan's territorial claims on Russia's Kuril Islands on November 2, even referring to them as the Northern Territories, the Japanese government's designation. He didn't go as far as Clinton had five days earlier in pledging adherence to Article 5 of the U.S.-Japan treaty - "Each Party recognizes that an armed attack against either Party in the territories under the administration of Japan would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger" - but the prospect of Washington and Tokyo invoking the provision against Russia is not an unimaginable contingency.
> 
> On December 4 Japanese Foreign Minister Maehara will arrive at the northern island of Hokkaido "to view four Russian-held islands claimed by Japan, known as the Northern Territories in Japan and the Southern Kurils in Russia." [19] While in Hokkaido, Maehara will meet with former residents of the Kurils.
> 
> Decades-old and until of late seemingly dormant or discarded military blocs, treaties and military assistance clauses are being resuscitated and expanded in the Asia-Pacific region. Military alliances modeled after the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in the area in the 1950s and their 21st century equivalents are being integrated into an eastern version of and in many ways extension of NATO. At least eight Asia-Pacific nations - Australia, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Mongolia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and Tonga - have troops assigned to NATO's International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan.
> 
> As part of the Afghan war effort, NATO maintains a military presence in five nations bordering western China: Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan and Tajikistan.
> 
> Last month Japan announced that it was deploying an initial contingent of troops "to its westernmost island in response to Chinese naval manoeuvres in the East China Sea." The first 100 troops will be sent to Yonaguni, the southernmost of the Ryukyu/Nansei islands less than 100 miles from the Senkaku/Diaoyu island grouping. The Japanese Defense Ministry is "also considering sending troops to the islands of Miyako and Ishigaki west of Okinawa to beef up border security." [20] Ishigaki is also about 100 miles from the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands.
> 
> Regarding last month's flurry of visits to the Asia-Pacific region by major U.S. foreign policy and military officials, The Hindu reported: "US visitors...declared Washington's resolve to expand its footprint in South-East Asia. Clinton called for beefing up US military presence in Singapore, which implies a firmer grip on the strategic Strait of Malacca, strengthening defence cooperation with Thailand and the Philippines...and stepping up interaction with Vietnam." [21]
> 
> The most ambitious element of American plans to forge an Asian equivalent of NATO is the recruitment of India as the largest and most strategically essential partner in the development of an eastern military bloc. The U.S. is moving to supplant Russia as India's main weapons supplier and historical military ally and employing the South Asian nation to counter China's emergence as a regional and world power.
> 
> Washington is proceeding at a breakneck - an alarming - pace with plans to politically and militarily polarize East Asia, using the crisis on the Korean Peninsula to do so. Attempts by China and Russia to defuse the conflict and resume negotiations aimed at its peaceful resolution are being spurned by headstrong and reckless U.S. government and military officials.
> 
> Russia and China share borders with North Korea. The U.S. is a continent away. A new conflagration on the peninsula would directly affect the first two nations. America can exploit a renewal of hostilities to reinstall itself in the Asia-Pacific region and use proxies - Japan as much as South Korea - to accomplish that objective.

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## DV RULES

Hafizzz said:


>



In my point of view Russia & china has to treat this virus (US) strictly and force to stay in their own boundaries. 

.........

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## Last Hope

WHy cant US Gov mind there own business???

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## Paan Singh

there is something in u.s which we have to appreciate


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## ChinaRocks

US aint got the gut nor financially to start a war against China and Russia.

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## amigo

U.S will not want war with either china or russia & not in their dreams when china & russia are on one side.


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## prototype

The days of Russian and american enmity is over,U.S cannot still make bow russia before them,that is an another matter,but Russia is now not the primary adversary of U.S,for the first time they r even ready to cooperate on the missile defense shield in Europe.

U.S soviet confrontation was primarily a clash of two distinct ideologies,after the disintegration of Soviet now it hold no significance

This is all about China,and so far in the Korean issue,by send their CBG U.S had drawn first blood,so far china is quite about the issue,but i think they will respond in some way or other,let wait and see that


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## sanibhagwan

ChinaRocks said:


> US aint got the gut nor financially to start a war against China and Russia.



They won't indulge in direct war. In my opinion they have different strategy for bigger countries. They would start a low cost- low intensity conflicts to bring down a bigger country (like the former USSR).


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## Chinapak

All the US wardogs criminals' military exercises involving WMD and nuclear missiles are mere provocations of a nation frustrated by the economic power and rising influence of China. All these military exercises are aimed at China which has become the easy target in the US political arena. In the US, every problem encountered by the middle class american is caused by CHina. Economic crisis is a result of China, financial cisis is caused by China and MAddock has nothing to do with it, etc.

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## Hafizzz

ChinaRocks said:


> US aint got the gut nor financially to start a war against China and Russia.



But USA has found some country to do the job and that country is India. India has received goodies including Nuke Deal, Military Hardwares and many jobs for Indian people from USA.

Will India be able to do the job for USA ?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Hafizzz said:


> Will India be able to do the job for USA ?



Does India WANT to do the job for USA?


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## conworldus

What trouble? We will rejoice when American run out of money building all the "alliances".

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## Hafizzz

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> Does India WANT to do the job for USA?



If India does not the job she would not take the goodies.....

Now USA is already arming India to teeth so that India can put up a fight
with China.



conworldus said:


> What trouble? We will rejoice when American run out of money building all the "alliances".



Uncle SAM will NEVER run out of money....lots of ATM machines for USA to get money from - Japan, and the Arab world.


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Hafizzz said:


> If India does not the job she would not take the goodies.....
> 
> Now USA is already arming India to teeth so that India can put up a fight
> with China.



That's our business mind. Take money, don't do the job for example, we take money from boss and spend our office hours on PDF

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## Paan Singh

Hafizzz said:


> If India does not the job she would not take the goodies.....
> 
> Now USA is already arming India to teeth so that India can put up a fight
> with China.



india dont do the job for others.,we know the results

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## Hafizzz

CaptainJackSparrow said:


> That's our business mind. Take money, don't do the job



LOL. True !!!

China got some goodies from USA back then during the cold war and now it is India's turn to milk Uncle SAM. 







Pakistani-Chini-Hindi Bhai Bhai


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## Devianz

Hafizzz said:


> But USA has found some country to do the job and that country is India. India has received goodies including Nuke Deal, Military Hardwares and many jobs for Indian people from USA.
> 
> Will India be able to do the job for USA ?



You got to be kidding me....

So according to you... couple of *civil* nuclear deals, two dozen transport aircraft and some hundred thousand IT/ITES jobs from US to India are going to defeat China and Russia?


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## CaptainJackSparrow

Hafizzz said:


> Pakistani-Chini-Hindi Bhai Bhai



Dear buddy, in today's world, nobody is anybody's real buddy when it comes to national interests. Got it buddy?


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## AMCA

Hafizzz said:


> But USA has found some country to do the job and that country is India. India has received goodies including Nuke Deal, Military Hardwares and many jobs for Indian people from USA.
> 
> Will India be able to do the job for USA ?



You Speak as if We are Getting All the so Called Goodies for Free Like Pakistan Does.... We Give them Cash and Not Commitments.... We Have Only 3 Nations to Show Our Commitment and That is Russia,Israel and Ofcourse the France.... 

We Buy weapons which Are available In the World Market, Is there any Weapon we Have which are Not Available to any other nation who have Money to buy it?? 

And About Jobs, US President was Here Asking for The Jobs , Not Giving Jobs To Indians.....


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## Hafizzz

Devianz said:


> You got to be kidding me....
> 
> So according to you... couple of *civil* nuclear deals, two dozen transport aircraft and some hundred thousand IT/ITES jobs from US to India are going to defeat China and Russia?



Just throw a few dollars on the street and lots of people will do anything for you. India took the job from Uncle SAM to contain China but whether India has the power to contain China or not if a different story.


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## Devianz

Hafizzz said:


> Just throw a few dollars on the street and lots of people will do anything for you. India took the job from Uncle SAM to contain China but whether India has the power to contain China or not if a different story.



We are also developing/receiving more sophisticated goodies(than what US provides) with Russians and Israelis.. so does that mean that they expect us to contain US or middle-east with those?


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## Hafizzz

Devianz said:


> We are also developing/receiving more sophisticated goodies(than what US provides) with Russians and Israelis.. so does that mean that they expect us to contain US or middle-east with those?



Of course, Russia is providing state of the art military hardwares to India to keep China in check.

Israel is providing India with high tech goodies to keep Pakistan and the Muslim world under control.


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## Hafizzz

> Russia unable to win possible war with either NATO or China
> Russia unable to win possible war with either NATO or China - English pravda.ru
> 
> Gen. Nikolai Makarov, the chief of the Russian General Staff, stated on December 14 that after two years of reforms the Russian army was fully prepared for showing appropriate reactions to any threats. It became possible owing to the creation of the absolutely new defense structure and the introduction of the new training system for the troops, the official said.
> 
> High-readiness forces have been thoroughly provided with weaponry and ammo, whereas the army was supposedly degenerating before, the official added.
> 
> Makarov also said that the majority of military schools were training officers on the base of outdated programs and techniques. Many of those programs, the official said, were based on combat experiences of the Great Patriotic War.
> 
> Judging upon the statements of the high-ranking defense officials, the previous problems of the Russian army have been solved. Is it really so? Will the Russian army be ready to stand up against a potential enemy? Will the results of the army reforms give Russia an opportunity to show appropriate reactions to possible aggression from NATO members or China?
> 
> Pravda.Ru asked expert opinion from military experts.
> 
> Konstantin Sivkov, the first vice president of the Academy for Geopolitical Problems:
> 
> "Statements claiming that Russian Armed Forces are ready to repulse any attack after the so-called reforms are nothing but nonsense. They are capable of settling a small conflict, in which not more than 100,000 men would need to participate. If there's a larger, local conflict, which requires the participation of up to 500,000 people, then the Russian Armed Forces would not be able to deal with it, not to mention a large-scale war with NATO or China.
> 
> "In other words, without the use of nuclear arms, Russia is incapable of reacting to challenges from potential enemies. Those, who believe that the Russian army should be cut, say that we do not need such a large army at all because we have our nuclear weapons. The forces of nuclear containment need to be protected in the air and on the surface. If someone attacks Russia without the use of nuclear arms, Russia will not respond with a nuclear attack either. No country participating in WWII used chemical weapons during the war in spite of the fact that everyone had more than enough of those weapons. No one did that, not even the dying Nazi Germany.
> 
> "The same will happen to nuclear weapons. Everyone is very well aware of the fact that using nuclear weapons is similar to committing suicide. Both NATO and China know that Russia will not use its nukes if a non-nuclear war occurs.
> 
> "As for the so-called reforms, the combat effectiveness of the Russian army has considerably reduced during the years of those reforms. Many officers resigned not because of the outdated training - they were simply sacked. They tell us today that Stalin "beheaded the Red Army" when he repressed 30,000 out of 800,000 officers. But what is the right word to describe the sacking of 200,000 out of 300,000 officers within two years? No one of them received any apartments, by the way.
> 
> "The reforms are over, and what do we see? Officers still do not have the motivation to serve, because they do not have a place to live. The technological base of the army was cut considerably during these two years. Let's take the support system, for example. This system has been handed over to entrepreneurs. This system can function normally only during time of peace. Will businessmen and their subordinates risk their lives to deliver all necessary goods to the battlefield?
> 
> "So what does Russia have? China and NATO can oppose Russia with huge armies - 2.5 million men each. Russia has only 85 instant readiness brigades, or 180,000 people deployed on such a vast territory as our country.
> "Here is another important aspect - Russian reformers want to purchase foreign arms. One would only have to press a button to deactivate those arms in case an armed conflict with NATO occurs," the expert said.
> 
> "For the time being, Russia is capable of showing resistance to such countries as Georgia. Russia will not be able to win a war with China or NATO," Alexander Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute of Political and Military Analysis told Pravda.Ru. "As for nuclear weapons, NATO is much stronger than Russia, and China's nuclear arsenal will soon be just as powerful as that of Russia. It will not be possible for Russia to conduct offensive operations against NATO members, because the strength of the Russian army has declined considerably.
> 
> "As for military hardware, which was supposedly fully provided to high-readiness forces, I have to say that all that hardware is of the Soviet origin. New weapons exist in meager quantities. There are only two divisions of S-400 anti-missile systems, for example, and they do not have long-range missiles, which would make them different from S-300 systems. Where are those highly acclaimed Su-35 fighters, which Russia exports?
> 
> "There is another important aspect here. It is an open secret that all recent wars started with massive air strikes against enemies. Russia's air defense is absolutely not ready to face such a threat. It can only protect large centers in the country and that's it. There is not even one single air defense regiment on a huge territory from Irkutsk to Khabarovsk, which is 2,500 kilometers," Khramchikhin said.



I doubt China's nuclear arsenal will be as powerful as Russia's in the near future.

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## cybertron

well Russia in my doesnt feel the need for massive arming in this day and age.
they have rightly realized their past mistakes and are on right track.
Both the war situations a completly hypothetical.
1) war with NATO : theirs something called SCO these days, RUSSIA + CHINA itself is too hot.
2) war with CHINA : well china is more intelligent than that
both have a peace accord too.

now good luck to the author and Mr. HAFIZZZzzz...


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## Bose-the great

Best of luck hafizz..
Only retards would believe ur BS..
Tell this night stories to some cute childs


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## prototype

Yes it is true Russia cant win against NATO or China,but the reverse is also a big true,China or NATO cannot also defeat Russia

If any war occurred(which is as possible as finding the end of infinity)the only possible result is a stalemate

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## Chinese-Dragon

China and Russia are allies now, and are both founding members of the SCO.

There is no need to worry about such a conflict.

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## Parashuram1

General Makarov simply is attempting to push Kremlin for faster and more effective reforms to be passed for the Russian military modernization programme. This is a very old and typical military tactic of releasing large-than-existing problems so as to worr the government enough to give concessions of some sort to militaries. Russia is the only country that doesn't have a declared future soldier programme at the moment of its stature and military might. 

The conflict of either NATO, Russia or China with each other is simply impossible at this stage. Neither of these entities can defeat each other in any terms. NATO had the best chance to show its might in 2008 when Russians struck at Georgia. NATO's reluctance to engage with Russia militarily was clearly shown. The same is applicable vice-versa.

China would be the last country to ruin its own economic growth through war; which is why it has come to age and matured as a trading and economic powerhouse. The peace accord between Russia and China is another symbol of that. 

As for nuclear arsenal, even today post Soviet era Russia holds thousands of nuclear weapons ready and pointed in various directions. Even United States has lesser nuclear weapons than Russians themselves, while Chinese are said to have the lowest number of nuclear weapons among permanent members as a sign of minimum deterrence.

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## Hafizzz

alex mercer said:


> Yes it is true Russia cant win against NATO or China,but the reverse is also a big true,China or NATO cannot also defeat Russia
> 
> If any war occurred(which is as possible as finding the end of infinity)the only possible result is a stalemate



All you need is Vodka.....hand out Vodka to every Russian and they will defeat themselves.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Hafizzz said:


> All you need is Vodka.....hand out Vodka to every Russian and they will defeat themselves.



 Thts so true!
Look at this russian soldier.....hes drunk and drivin an apc kinda thing





Spetsnaz:MORTAL COMBAT COMMANDO ROFL









Russian Army





HAHAHAH.

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## IND151

*



China and Russia are allies now, and are both founding members of the SCO.

There is no need to worry about such a conflict.

Click to expand...

* yes very true. both have WMDs so no chances of war.


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## illuzioN

Russia is still a major player in this world and is needed to provide balance


I wish Russia can see eye to eye with us in alot of issues, but it&#8217;s ok.... slowly but surely they are becoming more western

They have the 3rd best Military in the world


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## TenjikuKensei

People underestimate the Russian Bear at their peril.

If push comes to shove, the EU cannot do much against Russia, and Vice versa,, the same goes for China.

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## CardSharp

illuzioN said:


> Russia is still a major player in this world and is needed to provide balance
> 
> 
> I wish Russia can see eye to eye with us in alot of issues, but its ok.... slowly but surely they are becoming more western
> 
> They have the 3rd best Military in the world



I agree Russia is still a global player but if you think Russia is becoming more "westernized" I suggest you check out the Russian times YT channel

YouTube - RussiaToday's Channel

Compare their coverage of America with their coverage of China.

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## Hafizzz

Konstantin Sivkov said : "Russia unable to win possible war with either NATO or China". 

He never mentioned India.....that means Russia is able to defeat India any time.

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## MickyMouse

Hafizzz said:


> Konstantin Sivkov said : "Russia unable to win possible war with either NATO or China".
> 
> He never mentioned India.....that means Russia is able to defeat India any time.



Pakistan too then . . . or do you count yourself as part of NATO now because you are an American "ally" in the war on terror 

Don't give stupid off topic diversions


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## TenjikuKensei

Hafizzz said:


> Konstantin Sivkov said : "Russia unable to win possible war with either NATO or China".
> 
> He never mentioned India.....that means Russia is able to defeat India any time.



I just love the way people jump through logically contortionist hoops to bring their pet peeve/Piñata into every topic.

The last time I checked, India and Russia don't share a border....but hey....dont let such a trivial "fact" waylay you when you are riding your hobby horse

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## Hafizzz

TenjikuKensei said:


> I just love the way people jump through logically contortionist hoops to bring their pet peeve/Piñata into every topic.
> 
> The last time I checked, India and Russia don't share a border....but hey....dont let such a trivial "fact" waylay you when you are riding your hobby horse



You need to share a border to fight a war ? LOL

USA shares her border with only two countries - Canada and Mexico but yet she fought with almost every countries in the world.


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## aakash_2410

Hafizzz said:


> Konstantin Sivkov said : "Russia unable to win possible war with either NATO or China".
> 
> He never mentioned India.....that means Russia is able to defeat India any time.



Yeah obviously, we don't even claim to. Even on official global fire power list india is fourth. America is first followed by china and russia.

And we would never go on war with russia but on the contrary we've always got their back!

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## siegecrossbow

Looks like Putin's military reform/arms acquisition is well under way.

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## NeutralCitizen

On a recent trip to China, I asked Chinese thinkers and researchers how do they see Europe, Russia, the Putin-Medvedev dynamic and the post-Soviet space. Virtually all were very positive about Russia. Despite a lack of trust between Beijing and Moscow, the relationship seems to be better than almost any time in modern history  economic exchanges are booming (increased by 43% in 2010 reaching USD 55 bn), and Chinas border with Russia is one of Chinas most stable. But scratching a bit deeper beyond the surface the picture is unsurprisingly more mixed. And not necessarily reassuring for Russia. As a Chinese put it, the relationship is good because we know that when two tigers fight, both are likely to be wounded, and we want to avoid it. This is hardly a positive way to start a partnership.

China and the break-up of USSR

A colleague of mine and I asked the Chinese how do they see the break-up of USSR. Here is the answer we got:

We had a big debate about whether this is good or bad for China. Some ideological people were saying this is bad because it undermines the attractiveness of Communism. But the pragmatists were saying this is good for China. And it is true, after the break-up of USSR we have very good relations with Russia. Better than ever before.

The untold part of the answer is of course the fact these better than ever relations are build on a very different balance of power and a Russia that is much weaker than USSR. As I wrote previously, Chinese views on the post-Soviet space do not differ much from those in Europe or the US. They differ in style (China is more deferential to Russia), but not in substance.

It is also apparent that the stronger China got, the better its relationship with Russia became. Another Chinese also suggested that China-Russia energy relations have been unlocked by the economic crisis, since Russias need for cash opened the way for the USD 25bn loan-for-oil deal with Rosneft. A Chinese professor put it in the following terms: How can you have a good sleep when you sleep with a bigger man? That referred to USSR, but not to Russia.

Is Russia a BRIC?

We also asked the Chinese whether they consider Russia is a BRIC country. Not in a technical sense as the source of letter R in this acronym, but whether they consider Russia a rising power  economically and politically. Instead of a reply, we heard a joke:

A BRIC summit is discussing how and when to unseat the US dollar as a global reserve currency. After days of deliberations the leaders of BRIC countries decide to go and ask God about the prospects of their currencies to become global reserve currencies. The first to go is Dilma Rousseff, president of Brazil  she asks God when will the real become a reserve currency. A few minutes later she returns crying. Her RIC colleagues ask her what happenned? God said I will not live to see that she explained.

Manmohan Singh goes to ask God when will the Indian rupee become a global reserve currency. Just like Dilma Rousseff he returns crying after a few minutes. God told him that the Rupee wont become a reserve currency in his lifetime.

Hu Jintao goes through the same experience.

Then Medvedev goes to God. A few minutes later Medvedev returns completely calm. The others ask him what happened, and Medvedev replies: I asked God when will the Rouble become a global reserve currency and God started to cry. I asked him what happened, and he told me this will not happen in his lifetime

(I heard a similar joke about corruption in Romania). The joke is half funny, but captures how many Chinese see Russia.

Putin or Medvedev?

Just like the US and EU almost unashamedly prefer Medvedev to Putin, the Chinese equally unashamedly seem to prefer Putin to Medvedev. We asked why. One answer was that Medvedev is pro-Western, and Putin is pro-Russian. Another Chinese regretted the times when Russia was on the frontlines of opposition to the US. As one Chinese intellectual explained: It is difficult for China alone to be against the US. With other powers  we can do it. Before, when Putin was president, Russia was much more active in the UN Security Council. But after the reset US-Russia reset we have to be smarter on how to promote out views in the UN. We do not want to face US pressures on our own.

Many of them, though, highlight that before Libya they didnt matter much whether it is Putin or Medvedev, but that Russias failure to veto the resolution over Libya and the clash between Medvedev and Putin over the issue lead them to believe Putin is closer.

- Why?  I asked.

-Because Medvedev did not veto UNSC resolution 1973.

- But China didnt block it either? Medvedev did what China did, so why do you say Putin is closer?

- Yes thats true, but it was better before

It sounds almost counter-intuitive that China, which has a careful, quiet, and markedly non-aggressive diplomatic style misses Putins Munich-speech style rants. But then those speeches allowed China to get the best of two worlds  cooperate with the US, while also enjoying from the sidelines Russia spearheading opposition to the US.

How China sees Russia « Neighbourhood


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## rcrmj

hehe, sounds about right


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## below_freezing

I love Russia as long as Russia stays in its own territory and stops insulting our IQ every 2 weeks or so.


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## PteX

below_freezing said:


> I love Russia as long as Russia stays in its own territory and stops insulting our IQ every 2 weeks or so.


 
When did that happen?
As to the article i think it`s sums it up by saying: The Dragon enjoys the Bear`s company as long as he doesn't use that Bear steroid he was on 20 years back.


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## siegecrossbow

> &#8216;A BRIC summit is discussing how and when to unseat the US dollar as a global reserve currency. After days of deliberations the leaders of BRIC countries decide to go and ask God about the prospects of their currencies to become global reserve currencies. The first to go is Dilma Rousseff, president of Brazil &#8211; she asks God when will the real become a reserve currency. A few minutes later she returns crying. Her RIC colleagues ask her &#8216;what happenned?&#8217; &#8216;God said I will not live to see that&#8217; she explained.
> 
> Manmohan Singh goes to ask God when will the Indian rupee become a global reserve currency. Just like Dilma Rousseff he returns crying after a few minutes. God told him that the Rupee won&#8217;t become a reserve currency in his lifetime.
> 
> Hu Jintao goes through the same experience.
> 
> Then Medvedev goes to God. A few minutes later Medvedev returns completely calm. The others ask him what happened, and Medvedev replies: &#8216;I asked God when will the Rouble become a global reserve currency&#8230; and God started to cry. I asked him what happened, and he told me this will not happen in his lifetime&#8230;&#8217;



This is a rip off of a joke about the Chinese national soccer team.

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## gagaga

i love Russian, and the Russian love us.
( a Chinese student abroad in Moscow, our Russian brother somehow like to express their love in punching our face.)





we love each other.


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## Huan

I would not trust Russia too much. Russia took Outer Manchuria unfairly when China was too weak. Very humiliating indeed for China. It was also due to Russia that Outer Mongolia's independence was made possible.

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## centerland

If a country swallow 1/3 of your territory, how will you treat it?


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## below_freezing

Huan said:


> I would not trust Russia too much. Russia took Outer Manchuria unfairly when China was too weak. Very humiliating indeed for China. It was also due to Russia that Outer Mongolia's independence was made possible.


 
That's what happens to weak countries. Accept it, learn from it, and grow stronger so it never happens again. Hate the enemy but hate yourself more for being too weak to stand up for yourself.

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## NeutralCitizen

On a dark November night in 1978, 18 Chinese peasants from Xiaogang village in Anhui province secretly divided communal land to be farmed by individual families, who would keep what was left over after meeting state quotas. Such a division was illegal and highly dangerous, but the peasants felt the risks were worth it. The timing is significant for our story. The peasants took action one month before the reform congress of the party was announced. Thus, without fanfare, began economic reform, as spontaneous land division spread to other villages. One farmer said, When one familys chicken catches the pest, the whole village catches it. When one village has it, the whole county will be infected.

Ten years later, in August of 1988, Mikhail Gorbachev lifted his nations 50-year-old prohibition against private farming, offering 50-year leases to farm families who would subsequently work off of contracts with the state. Few accepted the offer; Russian farmers were too accustomed to the dreary but steady life on the state or collective farm. Thus began reform of agriculture in Soviet Russia.

The results in each country could not have been more different. Chronically depressed Chinese agriculture began to blossom, not only for grain but for all crops. As farmers brought their crops to the city by bicycle or bus, long food lines began to dwindle and then disappear. The state grocery monopoly ended in less than one year. Soviet Russian agriculture continued to stagnate despite massive state subsidies. Citizens of a superpower again had to bear the indignity of sugar rations.

These two examples point to the proper narrative of reform in Gorbachevs Russia and Deng Xiaoping s China. Our narrative contradicts much received doctrine. The standard account is that China succeeded because a wise party leadership deliberately chose gradualism, retained the monopoly of the Communist Party after rebuffing democracy at Tiananmen Square, and carefully guided the process over the years. The narrative says that Russia failed because the tempestuous Gorbachev ignored the Chinese reform model, moved too quickly, and allowed the party monopoly to fall apart. This standard account is incorrect. Deng Xiaoping and his supporters, contrary to popular legend, did not agree on a reform program at the Third Plenum of the Eighth Party Congress in 1978, which installed him in power. A Chinese reform official by the name of Bao Tong later admitted as much: In fact, reform wasnt discussed. Reform wasnt listed on the agenda, nor was it mentioned in the work reports.

Full Article here: How China Won and Russia Lost | Hoover Institution

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## NeutralCitizen

I say what china did at tiananmen square was necessary If the students had succeeded China would had been in a decade of organized crime, separatists, oligarchs, poverty, drugs and massive brain drain just like Russia, Russia is still suffering from the effects to this day, Deng Xiaoping Did what Gorbachev should have done.

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## Tractor

China not won yet and Russia not lost,is that true anyway?


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## NeutralCitizen

Tractor said:


> China not won yet and Russia not lost,is that true anyway?


 
Actually the USA and Europe wanted china to be broken up just like the USSR, China succeeded and has the worlds second largest economy, the USSR fell and with it's fall led to the organized crime, separatists, oligarchs, poverty, drugs and massive brain drain in Russia and the Other republics and the effects are still going on today.


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## Black Widow

NeutralCitizen said:


> Actually the USA and Europe wanted china to be broken up just like the USSR, China succeeded and has the worlds second largest economy, the USSR fell and with it's fall led to the organized crime, separatists, oligarchs, poverty, drugs and massive brain drain in Russia and the Other republics and the effects are still going on today.



I think you are ill-informed. China was never threat to West till USSR existed (till 90s). USA tried to sabotage USSR defense sector by providing Lavi to China (Which later became J10). West was using China as tool to destroy USSR (which eventually they did). Though china and USSR were communist regime, there was major deference in there policies (it was like communism under communism).

No one know what's going under communist regime, every thing in comminusm is hidden, till russia disintegrated no one knew that russia was economically weak. On the same line We don't know how exactly is china. No one know how weak/strong is china from inside... 

Every country has its bad phase, so does Russia. We are hopeful they will come back with a Bang!...


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## Chinese-Dragon

In the Soviet Union, only 50% of the population self-identified as Russian.

Nobody destroyed the USSR, they destroyed themselves.

A nice quote from Vladmir Putin:

*"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain."*


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## Vibs

You can't compare the two countries! Just because China and Russia are both communists does not mean they followed the same systems. China is spending loads of money on infrastructure like USSR did just before it failed. But China has the unique advantage of industrial growth and an unprecedented sustained growth rate never before seen in the history of a communist state. 
Fact is, China was able to evolve a form of governance which sustains industrial growth within it's form of govt. That's where the soviets failed.


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## NeutralCitizen

Chinese-Dragon said:


> In the Soviet Union, only 50% of the population self-identified as Russian.
> 
> Nobody destroyed the USSR, they destroyed themselves.
> 
> A nice quote from Vladmir Putin:
> 
> *"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain."*


 
Mr Putin is a good liar he secretly is trying to create a new Union, with Kazakhstan, Belarus, Ukraine.


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## NeutralCitizen

Vibs said:


> You can't compare the two countries! Just because China and Russia are both communists does not mean they followed the same systems. China is spending loads of money on infrastructure like USSR did just before it failed. But China has the unique advantage of industrial growth and an unprecedented sustained growth rate never before seen in the history of a communist state.
> Fact is, China was able to evolve a form of governance which sustains industrial growth within it's form of govt. That's where the soviets failed.


 
The USSR had better infrastructure and industrial growth then China, China advantage was it's economic growth the Soviet Economy was burnt out from the Arms race, Soviet Afghan War, but the final nail in the coffin was the protestors, the question is if the USSR crushed the protestors like China did would it have survived ?


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## NeutralCitizen

Black Widow said:


> I think you are ill-informed. China was never threat to West till USSR existed (till 90s). USA tried to sabotage USSR defense sector by providing Lavi to China (Which later became J10). West was using China as tool to destroy USSR (which eventually they did). Though china and USSR were communist regime, there was major deference in there policies (it was like communism under communism).
> 
> No one know what's going under communist regime, every thing in comminusm is hidden, till russia disintegrated no one knew that russia was economically weak. On the same line We don't know how exactly is china. No one know how weak/strong is china from inside...
> 
> Every country has its bad phase, so does Russia. We are hopeful they will come back with a Bang!...


 
Quit misinformed the Lavi was sponsored by the US why would the US give high tech weaponry to China ? Russia was pillaged by the Oligarchs in Yeltsin Shock therapy in a way Russians kind of deserve what happen to them But I do feel sorry for them.


----------



## Vibs

NeutralCitizen said:


> The USSR had better infrastructure and industrial growth then China, China advantage was it's economic growth the Soviet Economy was burnt out from the Arms race, Soviet War, but the final nail in the coffin was the protestors, the question is if the USSR crushed the protestors like China did would it have survived.


 
Industrial growth comparable to China??? No it didn't. That's the main reason it failed. They pushed incredible amount of money on infra, defence, space etc during the Cold war era. But their industrial output did not leave them with enough surplus to sustain this. China on the other hand is the manufacturing hub of the world today. A country may hate China but your laptop will have chinese circuit boards! Despite the heavy investments, the Chinese still have a surplus amount left. Heck they hold $1.3 trillion in US treasury bonds.


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## Black Widow

NeutralCitizen said:


> Quit misinformed the Lavi was sponsored by the US why would the US give high tech weaponry to China ? Russia was pillaged by the Oligarchs in Yeltsin Shock therapy in a way Russians kind of deserve what happen to them But I do feel sorry for them.


 
USA did any thing and every thing to sabotage USSR.My information is quite accurate..


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## Tractor

NeutralCitizen said:


> Actually the USA and Europe wanted china to be broken up just like the USSR, China succeeded and has the worlds second largest economy, the USSR fell and with it's fall led to the organized crime, separatists, oligarchs, poverty, drugs and massive brain drain in Russia and the Other republics and the effects are still going on today.


 Sure,I think the point is organization with in and without.In P.R.China people always well organized (or you can say a cost of losing freedom)and Russia lost in this aspect like some other poor countries for a few decades.Maybe this kind of phenomenon due to some deep culture or ethnic reason.Lenin had once made Russian well organized but can not keep too long.
What about Germany,were they well organized during Hitler era and got some welfare?


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## Star&#8730;ation

Who did win and who did lose, and in what extend of the term "won" and "lost", it's still unclear.
It should be something like "How did the PRC survive but the USSR did not?". 
Furthermore, Russia and China are two nation, not two political system.


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## NeutralCitizen

Tractor said:


> Sure,I think the point is organization with in and without.In P.R.China people always well organized (or you can say a cost of losing freedom)and Russia lost in this aspect like some other poor countries for a few decades.Maybe this kind of phenomenon due to some deep culture or ethnic reason.Lenin had once made Russian well organized but can not keep too long.
> What about Germany,were they well organized during Hitler era and got some welfare?


 
Germany was well organized under Hitler, but it fell apart when he started going insane, communism and Soviet Nationalism that kept them organized.


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## Sasquatch

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has thrown down the glove at China over the two countries rival interests in Central Asia, announcing plans to form a 'Eurasian Union,' whose borders will encompass much of Chinas northwest and give Russia power over Chinas access to Central Asian markets and energy supplies. The proposed map  which bears a suspicious resemblance to that of the former Soviet Union  has so far met with derision in China.

Up until now, Putins call has been reported as a challenge to the EU. The Financial Times reports:
All this comes just as European Union attempts at closer integration with its eastern neighbours are faltering. Even if coincidentally, Mr Putins article appeared just days after an EU summit in Warsaw that aimed to relaunch an initiative to draw six former Soviet republics into its embrace, known as the Eastern Partnership. It was a damp squib.

This is missing the point: the countries already signed up for the union, Belarus and Kazakhstan, give the project a decidedly Eastern orientation, and Russia is much more concerned about Chinese influence in the landlocked region than the distant calls of Europe and the United States. A new report from SIPRI this week argued that Sino-Russian relations are weakening as China seeks a diverse portfolio of energy suppliers and is changing from an arms buyer to a competing manufacturer. Both countries have extensive Central Asian borders, and have strong interests, with China seeking energy suppliers and control over potential bases for militants from the Muslim region of Xinjiang.

Two chapters from a new book from the American National Bureau of Asian Research address the 'Great Game' in Central Asia and conclude that armed with infrastructure projects and deep pockets for loans, as well as the world's largest market for fossil fuels, China looks like it will have much more to offer over the long term than Russia.

But, Putin likely hopes, by offering market access and political support now, Russia can get these countries 'locked in' to a deal that will make him the gatekeeper for Chinas energy projects and political dealings in Central Asia. An economic or even currency union with Russia at its core would guarantee his continued relevance in an Asia that now looks like to be dominated by China in the coming century.

Is this project likely to succeed? Not to the extent Putin is hoping. C. Enders Wembush, in the NBR report, writes that Central Asian states are increasingly 'designing their own strategies to pursue objectives that are sometimes shared but sometimes in conflict with their Central Asian neighbours. The Central Asia they seeas well as the character of the competition enveloping itis not foremost the Soviet Central Asia of yesteryear.' Theyve learned to profit from working with both of the regions large powers, and are unlikely to accept a deal that will restrict their ability to deal with China.

So far, it seems, China is unconcerned about getting locked out of Central Asia, at least to the extent that its represented by its media. Coverage of the proposed union has ranged from indifferent to mocking. As one headline put it: Putin announces Eurasian Union, expert responds: Not expecting much.

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## Huan

*Tell you what, give back Outer Manchuria to China first. lol*


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## ChineseTiger1986

Huan said:


> *Tell you what, give back Outer Manchuria to China first. lol*



Lets forget about this for the moment, but an Eurasian Union with RMB as the common currency will be indeed nice.


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## lem34

China, Russia quit dollar

By Su Qiang and Li Xiaokun (China Daily)
Updated: 2010-11-24 08:02


St. Petersburg, Russia - China and Russia have decided to renounce the US dollar and resort to using their own currencies for bilateral trade, Premier Wen Jiabao and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin announced late on Tuesday. 
China, Russia reach consensus on energy cooperation 
Highlights of Chinese premier's activities in Russia 


Chinese experts said the move reflected closer relations between Beijing and Moscow and is not aimed at challenging the dollar, but to protect their domestic economies. 

"About trade settlement, we have decided to use our own currencies," Putin said at a joint news conference with Wen in St. Petersburg. 

The two countries were accustomed to using other currencies, especially the dollar, for bilateral trade. Since the financial crisis, however, high-ranking officials on both sides began to explore other possibilities. 

The yuan has now started trading against the Russian rouble in the Chinese interbank market, while the renminbi will soon be allowed to trade against the rouble in Russia, Putin said. 

"That has forged an important step in bilateral trade and it is a result of the consolidated financial systems of world countries," he said. 

Putin made his remarks after a meeting with Wen. They also officiated at a signing ceremony for 12 documents, including energy cooperation. 

The documents covered cooperation on aviation, railroad construction, customs, protecting intellectual property, culture and a joint communiqu. Details of the documents have yet to be released. 

Putin said one of the pacts between the two countries is about the purchase of two nuclear reactors from Russia by China's Tianwan nuclear power plant, the most advanced nuclear power complex in China. 

Putin has called for boosting sales of natural resources - Russia's main export - to China, but price has proven to be a sticking point. 

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Sechin, who holds sway over Russia's energy sector, said following a meeting with Chinese representatives that Moscow and Beijing are unlikely to agree on the price of Russian gas supplies to China before the middle of next year. 

Russia is looking for China to pay prices similar to those Russian gas giant Gazprom charges its European customers, but Beijing wants a discount. The two sides were about $100 per 1,000 cubic meters apart, according to Chinese officials last week. 

Wen's trip follows Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's three-day visit to China in September, during which he and President Hu Jintao launched a cross-border pipeline linking the world's biggest energy producer with the largest energy consumer. 

Wen said at the press conference that the partnership between Beijing and Moscow has "reached an unprecedented level" and pledged the two countries will "never become each other's enemy". 

Over the past year, "our strategic cooperative partnership endured strenuous tests and reached an unprecedented level," Wen said, adding the two nations are now more confident and determined to defend their mutual interests. 

"China will firmly follow the path of peaceful development and support the renaissance of Russia as a great power," he said. 

"The modernization of China will not affect other countries' interests, while a solid and strong Sino-Russian relationship is in line with the fundamental interests of both countries." 

Wen said Beijing is willing to boost cooperation with Moscow in Northeast Asia, Central Asia and the Asia-Pacific region, as well as in major international organizations and on mechanisms in pursuit of a "fair and reasonable new order" in international politics and the economy. 

Sun Zhuangzhi, a senior researcher in Central Asian studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said the new mode of trade settlement between China and Russia follows a global trend after the financial crisis exposed the faults of a dollar-dominated world financial system. 

Pang Zhongying, who specializes in international politics at Renmin University of China, said the proposal is not challenging the dollar, but aimed at avoiding the risks the dollar represents. 

Wen arrived in the northern Russian city on Monday evening for a regular meeting between Chinese and Russian heads of government. 

He left St. Petersburg for Moscow late on Tuesday and is set to meet with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Wednesday.

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## lem34

Russia may seek to help Euro bailout as it dumps US Treasuries
Add a comment



Kenneth Schortgen Jr
, Finance Examiner
December 15, 2011 

Over the last 12 months, Russia has been divesting itself from US Treasuries, and is now seeking to assist a potential Euro Zone bailout through the IMF. On December 15th, Arkady Dvorkovich, Deputy Minister for the Russian Federation, informed the public that they are considering supplying the IMF with $20 billion to assist in helping Europe's debt crisis.

Why's that? Because like China, Russia just dumped US bonds for the 12th straight month and instead both Russia and China are now focusing on making Europe their vassal state.- Zerohedge

Both Russia and China have been quietly selling Treasuries to lower their US risk as the dollar becomes a less valued currency in the global economy. Focus for the Eurasian countries has been in an emphasis on commodites and oil, along with strategic attempts to purchase corporations and economic zones of influence, as China accomplished recently in the state of Idaho.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke specified just yesterday that the central bank has little intention at this time to help bailout the Euro Zone as it did in 2008, and this decision opens the door for Russian and Chinese influence, but on their terms and requirements. So far, European nations have fought off attempts by China to purchase national corporations or other valuable infrastructure, but as the Euro Crisis continues, these policies may change.

Russia is seeking economically in Europe, what they once could not achieve militarily, a ripe opportunity as the prime supplier of energy in Europe to expand that influence. With the United States suffering their own economic problems, the shift by Russia from US debt to European bailouts may eventually bear fruit, and expand the overall European hogemony in the global economy.


Another nail into Pax America

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## VCheng

Let's see what comes of this.

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## Sugarcane

Should i convert my $ to euro now?

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## VCheng

loveicon said:


> Should i convert my $ to euro now?



NO!

Convert them all to roubles and yuan!

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## Pakistanisage

loveicon said:


> Should i convert my $ to euro now?




Yuan maybe a better choice Sweetheart......

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## Sugarcane

VCheng said:


> NO!
> Convert them all to roubles and yuan!





Pakistanisage said:


> Yuan maybe a better choice Sweetheart......



This will worsen euro zone crises. I am not that much cruel


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## v9s

The news article is from 2010.


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## Safriz

VCheng said:


> Let's see what comes of this.



Well you know.....
Now Tibet issue will be headline news and Putin's opposers will be given all the money they want to protest against his shady election.


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## lem34

v9s said:


> The news article is from 2010.



I put two articles up. One from 2010 one from 15th Dec on this thread. US dollar will not fall overnight its going to be a ongoing process untill it hits the tipping point

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## Sharath

LOLLLLLZzzzzzzz


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Hehehehe.... Thats GREAT!

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## StandForInsaf

IMHO , no one should be using any other country's paper currency as reserve or exchange standard, use gold as reserve and standard, and do trade in own currencies.


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## manojb

Op started thread few days back on similar subject here . Whats matter?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/u-s-fo...y-agreement-further-threatens-u-s-dollar.html


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## gpit

Whether you choose Yuan or not, it's upto your decision. Just share an article with you:



> ...
> 
> &#8220;Today&#8217;s sharp appreciation shows the central bank sent a strong signal that *the yuan&#8217;s appreciation trend won&#8217;t change*,&#8221; said Liu Dongliang, a senior analyst in Shenzhen at China Merchants Bank Co., the nation&#8217;s sixth-biggest lender. &#8220;The PBOC knows that currency depreciation would weaken investors, traders and even average people&#8217;s confidence in the economy.&#8221;
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> China&#8217;s Yuan Strengthens Most in Two Months on Signs Credit Curbs Easing



At least I have some yuan to hedge against euro and USD.

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## harpoon

loveicon said:


> Should i convert my $ to euro now?



Gold and other precious metals.


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## Hussein

harpoon said:


> Gold and other precious metals.


Kryptonite


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## araz

loveicon said:


> Should i convert my $ to euro now?



I would go for Gold or silver.
Araz


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## VelocuR

Why US can't threaten Russia and China any possible.....just they attacked Iraq and Libya for changing currency on oil to euro.


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## FairAndUnbiased

harpoon said:


> Gold and other precious metals.



gold is at its correct value so it will hold value, but why merely hold, when you can make money?

silver is underpriced from its historical 15:1 ratio with gold, and an appreciation is INEVITABLE; 8000 years of history since the days of Sumeria says so. silver is also a valuable industrial metal, so if things really collapse, you could wire up some solar panels with it.

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## lem34

manojb said:


> Op started thread few days back on similar subject here . Whats matter?
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/u-s-fo...y-agreement-further-threatens-u-s-dollar.html



The demise of the dollar is an on going issue that will have everlasting consequences and needs to be be constantly updated and discussed as it signfies the change of baton from a unipolar world to a multipolar one

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------




RaptorRX707 said:


> Why US can't threaten Russia and China any possible.....just they attacked Iraq and Libya for changing currency on oil to euro.



Russia have nukes and ICBM which can reach America. Libya and Iraq couldnt even reach israel with conventional weapons

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## VelocuR

Aryan_B said:


> The demise of the dollar is an on going issue that will have everlasting consequences and needs to be be constantly updated and discussed as it signfies the change of baton from a unipolar world to a multipolar one
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Russia have nukes and ICBM which can reach America. Libya and Iraq couldnt even reach israel with conventional weapons



yaar I know, is there any way US can threaten Russia in any cost? 

just like South China Sea control by US and its seven or ten allies......


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## ChineseTiger1986

Aryan_B said:


> Russia have nukes and ICBM which can reach America. Libya and Iraq couldnt even reach israel with conventional weapons



Not only the capability to hit the US soil with the nuclear ICBM, but also the ability to completely destroy US in a second strike attack.

Russia and China are both the primary nuclear opponent of US, so we both need to have the capability to annihilate US in a second nuclear strike.

Since Pakistan is not US's primary nuclear opponent, to develop this capability is too expensive for Pakistan right now, so Pakistan should develop the minimum nuclear deterrence against US.

Because US won't focus all its attention on a secondary nuclear opponent.

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## beijing consensus

iran has also decided to trade its oil using non-dollars.

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## lem34

beijing consensus said:


> iran has also decided to trade its oil using non-dollars.



Thats the real reason for wanting war with iran. Also Sadam had said no to US dollar and gadaffi was suggesting a new african currency demoninated or backed by gold

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## Bukhari.syed

No one will use dollars except the bound countries........... As the markets of both euro and dollar are going down too steeply so asian markets are going to rise higher...........


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## VCheng

beijing consensus said:


> iran has also decided to trade its oil using non-dollars.



The Tehran Oil Bourse (TOB) was designed to achieve that precisely: an oil trading market not denominated in dollars.

However, it has been trading at miniscule volumes, if at all, without impacting global oil trade in any significant manner.


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> The Tehran Oil Bourse (TOB) was designed to achieve that precisely: an oil trading market not denominated in dollars.
> 
> However, it has been trading at miniscule volumes, if at all, without impacting global oil trade in any significant manner.



But our position is that its going to be slow process. but it is the beggining of the end for the unipolar world that we know.


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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> But our position is that its going to be slow process. but it is the beggining of the end for the unipolar world that we know.



A unipolar world cannot last forever, I agree. However, it is not going to be as quick as is sometimes portrayed here, that is all. If by "slow" you mean several decades at least, then I could agree with you too.


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## Madmen

Aryan_B said:


> I put two articles up. One from 2010 one from 15th Dec on this thread. US dollar will not fall overnight its going to be a ongoing process untill it hits the tipping point



As long as oil is bought and sold in dollars the USD is going no where just my opinion

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## FairAndUnbiased

Madmen said:


> As long as oil is bought and sold in dollars the USD is going no where just my opinion



true, but the USD is not immune from devaluation, and even printing will not shield the populace from inflation as the beneficiaries of the printing will be the ones closest to the printing press, so to speak - the banks and the government.

As the USD prints more, the price of oil skyrockets, but salaries will not skyrocket as each additional printing has more and more of its value lost to devaluation and to keep banks stable. Indeed, average salaries are decreasing in the US. The relative price of oil will then rise quickly, with disastrous consequences for the US economy, as it is more oil dependent than any other on earth with lower marginal utility for oil than almost any economy on earth.

It has been estimated that the US economy cannot avoid recession if oil breaks 110 USD per barrel. Right now Brent crude is trading at 105.09. The closer the price is to 110 USD per barrel, the worse the US economy does.

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## beijing consensus

the dollar will fall within 10 years.
sentiment changes very quickly.

once china starts using yuan for trade and expands its bond market, others will have choices other than the dollar.

once central banks use yuan as reserves, then it wont be long.

the entire american empire is propped up by the dollar being the reserver currency.

u can see more countries starting to use their own currencies for bilateral trade.
if oil exporters such as iran, venezuela, nigeria, russia start using non-dollars for oil payments, look out.
inflation will increase in the US.

nigeria has talked about having 10% of its reserves in yuan and even stated it might accept yuan for its oil payments to china.

if this kind of thing accelerates, dollar will come under pressure.
and watch the US bond market, its in a bubble.

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## Chinese-Dragon

HeAteMyTaco said:


> These chinese guys are so naive to believe whatever lies their Party feeds them. You guys should really read from what the free world has to say to open your eyes to the reality.



I read the BBC, CNN, the Economist, the Financial Times, and the Wall Street Journal.

Tell me which one of those is "Chinese propaganda"?

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## regular

loveicon said:


> Should i convert my $ to euro now?


I guess U shold convert 70% to gold and silver and 15% to Yuan and rest whatever is in your daily need...cuz even the world war happens U not gonna loose ure wealth...but the paper currency will loose all its value andwill go rubbish.....


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## FairAndUnbiased

HeAteMyTaco said:


> These chinese guys are so naive to believe whatever lies their Party feeds them. You guys should really read from what the free world has to say to open your eyes to the reality.
> 
> If you did so you will find out that China's own currency is worthless and needs to be pegged to the dollar to derive its value. I am sure you noobs didnt know this and are jumping with joy dreaming about dollars collapse. Before you wish for that, make sure to ask the dear Party to assign some real value to Chinese peoples holdings, unless you wanna go back and live like a sick man again.
> 
> Oh wait!!! The assets of Chinas banks aren't owned by the Chinese, they belong to the party, just like the army isn't chinas, its the partys army



lmao why is the RMB increasing in value vs the dollar? why is gold appreciating vs the dollar?

maybe you should stop getting your *** kicked by stone age cavemen and being unable to stop 84 of your citizens from being brutally slaughtered by Mexican drug dealers and can't lift a finger.


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## Obambam

HeAteMyTaco said:


> *These chinese guys are so naive to believe whatever lies their Party feeds them*. You guys should really read from what the free world has to say to open your eyes to the reality.
> 
> If you did so *you will find out that China's own currency is worthless and needs to be pegged to the dollar to derive its value.* I am sure you noobs didnt know this and are jumping with joy dreaming about dollars collapse. Before you wish for that, make sure to ask the dear Party to assign some real value to Chinese peoples holdings, unless you wanna go back and live like a sick man again.
> 
> Oh wait!!! *The assets of Chinas banks aren't owned by the Chinese, they belong to the party, just like the army isn't chinas, its the partys army*

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## Zabaniyah

HeAteMyTaco said:


> No wonder, you even copy American pictures in your dumb effort to make a point



How do you know the picture is American made?  Oh well, it's the Internet


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## Lyrical Mockery

predictions again. Let's wait and watch. Shall we?

We had a long and heated discussions on "predictions" some time back


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## lem34

VCheng said:


> A unipolar world cannot last forever, I agree. However, it is not going to be as quick as is sometimes portrayed here, that is all. If by "slow" you mean several decades at least, then I could agree with you too.



nope i mean dollar will be gone within 10 years or so. We are already heading into a multipolar world mark my words china and russia will flex their muscle soon enough just watch and learn chgeng


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## Lyrical Mockery

Aryan_B said:


> nope i mean dollar will be gone within 10 years or so. We are already heading into a multipolar world mark my words china and russia will flex their muscle soon enough just watch and learn chgeng



I sense a cold war brewing up between these two giants in future.


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## davidson

USA is the best

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

Russia is an evil country, Russia is our enemy as such and not specific malicious rascals on the throne, and not even a specific sociopolitical structure. Russia is and will remain the Evil under all regimes and rulers.


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## Interpreter

Federal Reserve is hatching QE3.Its money-making machine will be relaunched soon.


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## davidson

> China won 51 gold medals in 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES (Rank 1)
> 
> USA 36 gold medals
> Russia 23
> UK 19
> Germany 16
> Australia 14
> S.Korea 13
> Japan 9
> Italy 8
> France 7
> 
> India won 1 gold medal in 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES (Rank 96)



CHINA ECONOMY & SPORT SUPERPOWER

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------

*IQ testing *


Chinese IQ = 105
Indian IQ = 78

Chinese their average IQ is high. 
Indians score BELOW the Western average on IQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality


http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2011/12/17/1217050829546.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2011/12/17/1217051239203.JPG

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## Zabaniyah

HeAteMyTaco said:


> OMFG thats so fail!!!!.....don't tell me you dont know that picture is from star trek, and last time I checked, chinese hadnt managed to copy that...



Well, Star Trek is an American-made film and series. 

The specific picture the poster posted was fan modified. It could have been modified by anyone, American, Chinese, Indian etc. There's no Copyrights for fan made pictures like that. 

So since the picture is fan-made, and suppose an American made it, does that make the American a copy cat? If anyone posts the picture in forums to make a point, does that make him a copy cat? 

There are copies of various monuments and structures in Las Vegas, does that make America a cultural copy cat?

Your country's main concern with China is copyright and patent violations regarding various product designs. 

And that facepalm post doesn't concern that at all.

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## VCheng

Aryan_B said:


> ..................We are already heading into a multipolar world mark my words china and russia will flex their muscle soon enough.............................



Of course a multipolar world is inevitable, although may be over the next 50 years or so, not 10. Let the competitors flex whatever they have; the best will come out on top surely.


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## Luftwaffe

Let me end this thread by saying realistically Its a long way down that US dollar will be replaced with any other strong currency but Yes eventually trading in local currency is already kicked-in by certain nations but it is too early way too early.

You see African Nations and Many Asian Regional nations are still willing to trade in US dollars rather then in local currencies. It is hard to enforce them to change their business practices countries like Zimbabwe-S.Africa, Nigeria, Niger, Egypt, Libya and many other Africa-Asian regions are still into dollar trade, China would have do to alot to convince many of these nations for local currency trades.


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## Zabaniyah

HeAteMyTaco said:


> Fail logic = failed argument = dumb person....*I cant educate you over the internet you know*...



Is that because you are unable to come up with any point at all?

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------




Luftwaffe said:


> Let me end this thread by saying realistically Its a long way down that US dollar will be replaced with any other strong currency but Yes eventually trading in local currency is already kicked-in by certain nations but it is too early way too early.
> 
> You see African Nations and Many Asian Regional nations are still willing to trade in US dollars rather then in local currencies. It is hard to enforce them to change their business practices countries like Zimbabwe-S.Africa, Nigeria, Niger, Egypt, Libya and many other Africa-Asian regions are still into dollar trade, China would have do to alot to convince many of these nations for local currency trades.



The truth is, it doesn't matter how many dollar notes they print. 

China would take a long time to match up in pretty much anything against the US. Maybe not even beyond 2050.


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## lem34

davidson said:


> USA is the best
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------
> 
> Russia is an evil country, Russia is our enemy as such and not specific malicious rascals on the throne, and not even a specific sociopolitical structure. Russia is and will remain the Evil under all regimes and rulers.



You have been brainwashed by the propaganda from american govt. Its actually american govt that is evil

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------




Interpreter said:


> Federal Reserve is hatching QE3.Its money-making machine will be relaunched soon.



That action will also speed up demise of US dollar


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## FairAndUnbiased

HeAteMyTaco said:


> Because the Chinese just got their ***** handed to them by the US, and the PM had to make a public statement to allow RMB to rise to pacify the US or face a trade war, sending china back to Mao age
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder, you even copy American pictures in your dumb effort to make a point



wait so RMB is worthless, but it is rising in value.

graduate from the barrios first and be the first to get a high school diploma, sanchez.

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## beijing consensus

NIGERIA SHIFTS FX RESERVES FROM DOLLAR TO YUAN 9-9-2011 - YouTube


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## beijing consensus

Zabaniya said:


> Is that because you are unable to come up with any point at all?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> The truth is, it doesn't matter how many dollar notes they print.
> 
> China would take a long time to match up in pretty much anything against the US. Maybe not even beyond 2050.



u clearly have limited knowledge on financial matters.

and u significantly overestimate the power of the US.
since ur financial knowledge is limited, u wont understand how fragile the US is in financially.

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## araz

VCheng said:


> The Tehran Oil Bourse (TOB) was designed to achieve that precisely: an oil trading market not denominated in dollars.
> 
> However, it has been trading at miniscule volumes, if at all, without impacting global oil trade in any significant manner.



Is this an effect of the embargo that has been placed on Iran? The fact is that Dollar value is grossly over inflated and the world has kept mum about it for ages, Now that the US economy is at its lowest ebb, do the governments feel that the US is not going to resist a change over. The question is to what. Gold has traditionally been the indicator of the value of currency. Although the US $ has been inflated in price since the 80s if not before US has aggressively resisted attempts to trade oil in any other currency except dollar. How long can it continue like this remains to be seen, but I dont see it continuing for long. Man we are heading for a big recession!!!
Araz

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## Zabaniyah

beijing consensus said:


> u clearly have limited knowledge on financial matters.
> 
> and u significantly overestimate the power of the US.
> since ur financial knowledge is limited, u wont understand how fragile the US is in financially.



As long as the dollars are backed by value, there's no reason for it to collapse. Sure, it's value may go down, but not collapse. Fragile? Yes. 

I do not think they'd be stupid and naive enough to do anything that'd cause the nation to collapse. Obama is using the wrong policies to address the economic problems.


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## canadian icehole

HeAteMyTaco said:


> OMFG thats so fail!!!!.....don't tell me you dont know that picture is from star trek, and last time I checked, chinese hadnt managed to copy that...



And if they did, your head will likely explode. Funny that this lead character is from Scotland and the original was from Canada. 


A lot of butthurt from the Yanks.

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## lem34

araz said:


> Is this an effect of the embargo that has been placed on Iran? The fact is that Dollar value is grossly over inflated and the world has kept mum about it for ages, Now that the US economy is at its lowest ebb, do the governments feel that the US is not going to resist a change over. The question is to what. Gold has traditionally been the indicator of the value of currency. Although the US $ has been inflated in price since the 80s if not before US has aggressively resisted attempts to trade oil in any other currency except dollar. How long can it continue like this remains to be seen, but I dont see it continuing for long. Man we are heading for a big recession!!!
> Araz



alternative will be basket of curencies i think


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## araz

Aryan_B said:


> alternative will be basket of curencies i think



The reason I did not recommend that is the frailty of the Euro. We have some really difficult times ahead of us.
Araz


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## VCheng

araz said:


> ..................Although the US $ has been inflated in price since the 80s if not before US has aggressively resisted attempts to trade oil in any other currency except dollar. How long can it continue like this remains to be seen, but I dont see it continuing for long. ...................
> Araz



USA will do its utmost, and quite successfully too, for the foreseeable future to ensure that oil continues to be denominated in dollars. Recession or not, as long as its economy can support it overwhelming military advanatages, that shall remain so.


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## Madmen

davidson said:


> USA is the best
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------
> 
> Russia is an evil country, Russia is our enemy as such and not specific malicious rascals on the throne, and not even a specific sociopolitical structure. Russia is and will remain the Evil under all regimes and rulers.



Hey buddy this isn't a hate forum for that goto godlikeproduction.com the ppl over there will be more to your liking.

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## Obambam

HeAteMyTaco said:


> Because the Chinese just got their ***** handed to them by the US, and the PM had to make a public statement to allow RMB to rise to pacify the US or face a trade war, sending china back to Mao age
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder, you even copy American pictures in your dumb effort to make a point



Sayeth the one living in a country with ever creeping poverty rate and uncertain future economic outlook? No one needs to make any point, you are already making a fool out of yourself by being dumb and ignorant

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## regular

&#1500;&#1489; &#1488;&#1502;&#1497;&#1509;;2402040 said:


> Can we blame the Afghan war for this fail?


Yes! U absolutely right my brother....They got themselves screwedup in Afghanistan Big Big Time......


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## HongWu

VCheng said:


> USA will do its utmost, and quite successfully too, for the foreseeable future to ensure that oil continues to be denominated in dollars. Recession or not, as long as its economy can support it overwhelming military advanatages, that shall remain so.


You are correct that US dollar hegemony is built on military power able to coerce oil producing countries into trading oil in US dollars. However, you are incorrect in believing that US has overwhelming military advantages carrying decades into the future. This is a mere illusion created when the USSR collapsed and USA began to attack smaller countries with impunity (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc.).

In fact, the economic fundamentals are turning against USA sharply. China is surpassing Russia in military technology and closing in on the US lead. China is only about 15-20 years (1 or 2 generations) behind US military advances.

The US dollar is keeping afloat purely on the expectation of US military dominance. The moment the US loses a military conflict, against China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea or whoever, the whole system comes tumbling down.... and the world enters a new era free from a dominating, blood-sucking Wall Street imperialist apparatus backed up by US military aggression and drone assassinations.

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## lem34

araz said:


> The reason I did not recommend that is the frailty of the Euro. We have some really difficult times ahead of us.
> Araz



exclude euro from basket or have smaller weighting to euro? simply present collapse is not a recession in the usual fashion. Its a systemic failure. Capitalism (or western capitalism free for all) contrary to american and western assertions has failed as much as communism. The present western countries are just putting plasters on a hemorrhaging economy. Perhaps Chinese model is best?

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## VCheng

HongWu said:


> .....................
> 
> In fact, the economic fundamentals are turning against USA sharply. China is surpassing Russia in military technology and closing in on the US lead. China is only about 15-20 years (1 or 2 generations) behind US military advances.
> 
> .........................



The US economy will rebound, and strongly at that, within a few years, and 20 years is a lifetime in military terms. Both the US economy and its military will hold sway for the foreseeable future. Even if China matches US might eventually, there will never be a direct conflict but wars by proxy similar to the Cold War.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

New Jobs created in USA in Last 12 months

a) Bankruptcy clerk 
b) Debt Collectors
c) Under Taker 
d) Spin Doctor Technologist
e) Politician
f) News reporter
g) background check analyst : to check if you were in army and keep you unemployed

Views from Developed Nation "AMERICAN DREAM"
































In 1995-2000, USA had 2-3 Trillion Surplus , every month or yearly quarter a 200-300 Billion surplus, enough to give a pay check of 50,000USD to every American child and adult so they can buy Life Insurance, Education funding etc and still have 1.5 trillion left 

>Health Insurance cost 100$/ month easily all Americans would have bought health insurance for 
50,000 USD check from government 

>Children would have gone to college , with 50,000 check 

> 50,000 USD check could have been used as saving accounts in 10 years it would have doubled up to 70,000 USD for people 

Alas...... Dick Chaney & Rums field and the Witch tsk tsk tsk 


But a certain lobby wanted War and going into meaningless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and now ... we see the end in sight

Reference:
http://articles.cnn.com/2000-09-27/...onal-debt-fiscal-discipline?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS






LISTEN CAREFULLY TO WHAT CLINTON SAID ABOUT BUDGET AND SURPLUSES AND WHAT HE WARNED ...BUT .... War mongers don't listen ...just chilling listening to this video just chilling feeling

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## VCheng

^^^






Wait, IT IS!






None of this is true.



> In 1995-2000, USA had 2-3 Trillion Surplus , every month or yearly quarter a 200-300 Billion surplus, enough to give a pay check of 50,000USD to every American child and adult so they can buy Life Insurance, Education funding etc and still have 1.5 trillion left
> 
> ...............
> But a certain lobby wanted War and going into meaningless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and now ... we see the end in sight


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hear Bill Clinton`s speech farewell speech , 2000 , and towards end he talks about his Surplus how he turned America into a Surplus nation ... thank you

Focus on video min 1:50 onward
*
MORE SPECIFICALLY min 3:00 on he claims USA will be DEBT FREE ..in next 10 years , in 2000 he stated it as he was leaving office ...that USA will be free never had USA been free since 1835!!! but now it will be debt free!!! *

WOW ... what a difference a poor 4-6 years of mismanagement can do

I sometimes wonder who is this HIGHER POWER THAT usa was paying debt to SATAN


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## VCheng

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Hear Bill Clinton`s speech farewell speech , 2000 , and towards end he talks about his Surplus how he turned America into a Surplus nation ... thank you
> 
> Focus on video min 1:50 onward



Mere political posturing from over a decade ago is pointless and useless.


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## Farooq

HeAteMyTaco said:


> These chinese guys are so naive to believe whatever lies their Party feeds them. You guys should really read from what the free world has to say to open your eyes to the reality.
> 
> If you did so you will find out that China's own currency is worthless and needs to be pegged to the dollar to derive its value. I am sure you noobs didnt know this and are jumping with joy dreaming about dollars collapse. Before you wish for that, make sure to ask the dear Party to assign some real value to Chinese peoples holdings, unless you wanna go back and live like a sick man again.
> 
> Oh wait!!! The assets of Chinas banks aren't owned by the Chinese, they belong to the party, just like the army isn't chinas, its the partys army



I don't think anyone is 'dreaming' about a collapsed dollar. 

However, the truth is that once the US is no loner the reserve currency it will be the inevitable downfall of the dollar.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Why do people used dollar anyways ?

Its value is not guaranteed and we all know it can go down to worth being 1 penny with in 2-3 days 

GOLD DIRHAM is the future as envisioned by Gadafi


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## HongWu

VCheng said:


> The US economy will rebound, and strongly at that, within a few years, and 20 years is a lifetime in military terms. Both the US economy and its military will hold sway for the foreseeable future. Even if China matches US might eventually, there will never be a direct conflict but wars by proxy similar to the Cold War.


And exactly how will the US economy rebound? It's only getting worse and worse.

The only way I see US rebounding is by fighting and winning another war, against Syria, Iran, North Korea, China or Russia. But can the US really win against these countries the same way as against Libya?

20 years is not a long time. China has equivalent to 1991 Desert Storm-era US military technology. Powerful enough to be second in the world, backed up by second biggest economy in the world (eventually will become first). China and Russia together can contain US expansion designs in Afghanistan, Middle East, Southeast Asia and Africa.

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## VCheng

HongWu said:


> And exactly how will the US economy rebound? It's only getting worse and worse.
> 
> The only way I see US rebounding is by fighting and winning another war, against Syria, Iran, North Korea, China or Russia. But can the US really win against these countries the same way as against Libya?
> 
> 20 years is not a long time. China has equivalent to 1991 Desert Storm-era US military technology. Powerful enough to be second in the world, backed up by second biggest economy in the world (eventually will become first). China and Russia together can contain US expansion designs in Afghanistan, Middle East, Southeast Asia and Africa.



Let see!


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## Vinod2070

HongWu said:


> China has equivalent to 1991 Desert Storm-era US military technology.



It doesn't.

And USA has advanced far from that period.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Vinod2070 said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> And USA has advanced far from that period.



Except they have the aircraft carriers, nothing was really superior at that time.


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## Vinod2070

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except they have the aircraft carriers, nothing was really superior at that time.



A lot was.

You can't run that kind of campaign thousands of kilometers away from your country (even right next to your country) against a million strong army and crush it totally.

All with a grand total of perhaps 20 odd casualties.

That war opened the eyes of the world to the US power.

It was not just about individual weapon systems. It was much more than that.

I say again, you (and anyone else) are not remotely where US was in 1991.


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## HongWu

Vinod2070 said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> And USA has advanced far from that period.


Obviously, China will have to beat india into the ground again just like 1962 to make China's enemies a little bit smarter.




Vinod2070 said:


> A lot was.
> 
> You can't run that kind of campaign thousands of kilometers away from your country (even right next to your country) against a million strong army and crush it totally.
> 
> All with a grand total of perhaps 20 odd casualties.
> 
> That war opened the eyes of the world to the US power.
> 
> It was not just about individual weapon systems. It was much more than that.
> 
> I say again, you (and anyone else) are not remotely where US was in 1991.


You are talking about China as if it is india because it is india who is incompetent at everything. China is not india. If that needs demonstrating, rest assured PLA is waiting for the opportunity.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Vinod2070 said:


> A lot was.
> 
> You can't run that kind of campaign thousands of kilometers away from your country (even right next to your country) against a million strong army and crush it totally.
> 
> All with a grand total of perhaps 20 odd casualties.
> 
> That war opened the eyes of the world to the US power.
> 
> It was not just about individual weapon systems. It was much more than that.
> 
> I say again, you (and anyone else) are not remotely where US was in 1991.



According to your nonsense, India is technologically inferior to the China of 1980s, because we already had the ICBMs back in 1981.

DF-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We even had the nuclear sub back in 1974, and does India have it today?

Type 091 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Vinod2070

HongWu said:


> Obviously, China will have to beat india into the ground again just like 1962 to make China's enemies a little bit smarter.
> 
> You are talking about China as if it is india because it is india who is incompetent at everything. China is not india. If that needs demonstrating, rest assured PLA is waiting for the opportunity.


 
All it takes is one Mongol herder to herd you sheep.

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ----------




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> According to your nonsense, India is technologically inferior to the China of 1980s, because we already had the ICBMs back in 1981.
> 
> DF-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> We even had the nuclear sub back in 1974, and does India have it today?
> 
> Type 091 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This is stupid.

You made a claim that is patently wrong. Only internet warriors will fall for that stupidity.


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## HongWu

Vinod2070 said:


> All it takes is one Mongol herder to herd you sheep.


Do I need to remind you to look in the mirror and notice what a nice mix of Central Asian conqueror paternal genes and subjugated hindus from extinguished hindu kingdoms maternal genes? Do you feel very sad that india was humiliated for 1000 years and hindus never had their own country (or countries) during this long period of time?

We Chinese can stomp on india so hard you will forget 1962. If you want to test PLA's power, go ahead and explore for oil in South China Sea.

indians prove themselves incredible again and again, so poor all they have is self-delusion.

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## Vinod2070

HongWu said:


> Do I need to remind you to look in the mirror and notice what a nice mix of Central Asian conqueror paternal genes and subjugated hindus from extinguished hindu kingdoms maternal genes? Do you feel very sad that india was humiliated for 1000 years and hindus never had their own country (or countries) during this long period of time?
> 
> We Chinese can stomp on india so hard you will forget 1962. If you want to test PLA's power, go ahead and explore for oil in South China Sea.
> 
> indians prove themselves incredible again and again, so poor all they have is self-delusion.



My little clown, this is Genghig's genes speaking from within you.

They say that every 7th human being has his blood. Where else than from you sheep.

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## HongWu

Vinod2070 said:


> My little clown, this is Genghig's genes speaking from within you.
> 
> They say that every 7th human being has his blood. Where else than from you sheep.


LOL..... so funny for the hindus to delude themselves to think others are a totally conquered people for 1000 years like they are! 

They were conquered and colonized so badly they don't even have their own history from ancient hindu kingdoms, they speak English in their government, and they have Islamic imprints on their country for 800 years.

All it gives them is a big inferiority complex in front of a continuous civilization like China.

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## Vinod2070

HongWu said:


> LOL..... so funny for the hindus to delude themselves to think others are a totally conquered people for 1000 years like they are!
> 
> They were conquered and colonized so badly they don't even have their own history from ancient hindu kingdoms, they speak English in their government, and they have Islamic imprints on their country for 800 years.
> 
> All it gives them is a big inferiority complex in front of a continuous civilization like China.



You little clown know nothing.

You have been herded like a sheep throughout history. By non Hans and even by Han rulers. They would send you out by the thousands, and 200 of you would die for each KM of that pathetic wall.

They would crush you Hans under their chariots. They would take 90 of your cities in just 1 year when they had all of 60000 people versus hundreds of millions of you.

They used the China slaves and Chin masons to break Chin cities. They would toy with you with their white, red and black flags.

Their scout would kill you just for fun.

An individual Mongol would come and kill the whole village. If he forgot his sword, he would go and fetch it and all of you remained lined up for being slaughtered.

And clowns like you would do the same today.

I have nothing against China and Chinese. Foolish clowns like you are a disgrace to the Chin.

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## HongWu

Vinod2070 said:


> You little clown know nothing.
> 
> You have been herded like a sheep throughout history. By non Hans and even by Han rulers. They would send you out by the thousands, and 200 of you would die for each KM of that pathetic wall.
> 
> They would crush you Hans under their chariots. They would take 90 of your cities in just 1 year when they had all of 60000 people versus hundreds of millions of you.
> 
> They used the China slaves and Chin masons to break Chin cities. They would toy with you with their white, red and black flags.
> 
> Their scout would kill you just for fun.
> 
> An individual Mongol would come and kill the whole village. If he forgot his sword, he would go and fetch it and all of you remained lined up for being slaughtered.
> 
> And clowns like you would do the same today.


LOL..... at the hindu's self-delusion..... he sure must feel proud of living in incredible india, what a great place to spend all your life, hahah


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## oct605032048

And indian is proud of this because you have the Mongol/Moghal empire?


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## Vinod2070

oct605032048 said:


> And indian is proud of this because you have the Mongol/Moghal empire?



I am not proud.

I was replying to the posts with facts and with civility.

Your clown brought in India needlessly and with his typical foolish bravado.

I ignore that clown mostly. Sometimes he/she/it just gets on the nerves.

---------- Post added at 01:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 AM ----------




HongWu said:


> LOL..... at the hindu's self-delusion..... he sure must feel proud of living in incredible india, what a great place to spend all your life, hahah


 
Absolutely. I feel privileged to be an Indian. The best honor possible.

Now go and graze where you are told to. 

Else the white flag will change to red. You know what it means?


----------



## beijing consensus

Zabaniya said:


> As long as the dollars are backed by value, there's no reason for it to collapse. Sure, it's value may go down, but not collapse. Fragile? Yes.
> 
> I do not think they'd be stupid and naive enough to do anything that'd cause the nation to collapse. Obama is using the wrong policies to address the economic problems.



dollar is not based on value, its based on faith.
faith in a currency and country can change very very quickly.

dollar and all fiat currencies are backed by nothing, it can be created in unlimited amounts. gold is what gives a currency value, gold cannot be created out of thin air.

the dollar collapse is not up to obama, its up to people holding dollars around the world for trade, investment and reserves, china has a major say whether the dollar lives or dies.

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## Perceptron

Vinod2070 said:


> You little clown know nothing.
> 
> You have been herded like a sheep throughout history. By non Hans and even by Han rulers. They would send you out by the thousands, and 200 of you would die for each KM of that pathetic wall.
> 
> They would crush you Hans under their chariots. They would take 90 of your cities in just 1 year when they had all of 60000 people versus hundreds of millions of you.
> 
> They used the China slaves and Chin masons to break Chin cities. They would toy with you with their white, red and black flags.
> 
> Their scout would kill you just for fun.
> 
> An individual Mongol would come and kill the whole village. If he forgot his sword, he would go and fetch it and all of you remained lined up for being slaughtered.
> 
> And clowns like you would do the same today.
> 
> I have nothing against China and Chinese. Foolish clowns like you are a disgrace to the Chin.


Each and every statement of yours is factually correct. I came across this wonderful chart that goes on to show the massacres and genocides in NYTimes and am posting it here.






In fact, if you go to see it, the worst massacres in Human history have come through Genghis Khan, the An Lushan Rebellion, the Xin Dynasty and so on. Of course, Mao Zedong was a champion in his own right in this population control dynamic. In other words, if at any instance of time, people have been massacred like sheep, then it has been the Chinese. I see a good precedent here of happening in the future too.

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## lem34

HongWu said:


> LOL..... at the hindu's self-delusion..... he sure must feel proud of living in incredible india, what a great place to spend all your life, hahah



brother ignore him and dont go to his level

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## HongWu

Vinod2070 said:


> Absolutely. I feel privileged to be an Indian. The best honor possible.
> 
> Now go and graze where you are told to.
> 
> Else the white flag will change to red. You know what it means?


LOL at the hindu going into a self-delusion frenzy. Tell me how much you love living in a third world hole? You are proud of india's national beverage? You are proud of 800 years of Hindu Kush from Central Asian conquerors? What about india are you proud of -- your divine animal, that we eat?





Perceptron said:


> Each and every statement of yours is factually correct. I came across this wonderful chart that goes on to show the massacres and genocides in NYTimes and am posting it here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, if you go to see it, the worst massacres in Human history have come through Genghis Khan, the An Lushan Rebellion, the Xin Dynasty and so on. Of course, Mao Zedong was a champion in his own right in this population control dynamic. In other words, if at any instance of time, people have been massacred like sheep, then it has been the Chinese. I see a good precedent here of happening in the future too.


LOL.......... more indian self-delusion.......... what does Genghis Khan have to do with China? I didn't know Mughal Empire was in China. But I heard the Mughal Empire turned hindus into slaves in their own country.

Do you know what "Middle East slave trade" means? Guess who are the indigenous people that made Arab slave traders the most money?

For the last 1000 years of history, whenever hindus in the subcontinent get uppity, one of its neighbors comes in and restores balance to the population. This is a great tradition that humanity should carry on well into the future.


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## beijing consensus

indians have massacred millions of sikhs and tamils.

india is a fascist regime that believes in ethnic cleansing.

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## Vinod2070

Aryan_B said:


> brother ignore him and dont go to his level


 
What a great value add by a lackey.

Does the lackey know the Chin have a "negative perception" of you as a Muslim and as a Pakistani.

Conversion doesn't change history.

And identity.

The wannabes will remain in their stupor and self loathing and be content just being two bit lackeys that are ignored even by the ones they are lackeys of.


----------



## Vinod2070

Perceptron said:


> Each and every statement of yours is factually correct. I came across this wonderful chart that goes on to show the massacres and genocides in NYTimes and am posting it here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, if you go to see it, the worst massacres in Human history have come through Genghis Khan, the An Lushan Rebellion, the Xin Dynasty and so on. Of course, Mao Zedong was a champion in his own right in this population control dynamic. In other words, if at any instance of time, people have been massacred like sheep, then it has been the Chinese. I see a good precedent here of happening in the future too.


 
I know mate.

I actually have sympathy with the Chinese as they have suffered at the hands of barbarians as parts of India have (the worst sufferrs are Af - Pak parts which have lost their culture and religion for the most part, even worst they have lost their identity).

Again, most Chin (like most people around the world) are at the receiving end of the situation and have no power to change it.

I have contempt only for the little chest thumping midget clowns. Not the ordinary Chinese. They are generally nice people from all my personal experience.


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## Vinod2070

HongWu said:


> LOL at the hindu going into a self-delusion frenzy. Tell me how much you love living in a third world hole? You are proud of india's national beverage? You are proud of 800 years of Hindu Kush from Central Asian conquerors? What about india are you proud of -- your divine animal, that we eat?



My little clown, you are a shame. Now go and eat the dog's tasty part.

You don't know shyt of history after centuries of being force fed the opium.

You are obviously still high on that stuff.



> LOL.......... more indian self-delusion.......... what does Genghis Khan have to do with China? I didn't know Mughal Empire was in China. But I heard the Mughal Empire turned hindus into slaves in their own country.
> 
> Do you know what "Middle East slave trade" means? Guess who are the indigenous people that made Arab slave traders the most money?
> 
> For the last 1000 years of history, whenever hindus in the subcontinent get uppity, one of its neighbors comes in and restores balance to the population. This is a great tradition that humanity should carry on well into the future.


 
You sense of inadequacy at being a midget buffoon continues to be fun.

You are a true zombie. In the best tradition.


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## beijing consensus

india was made slaves by the whites centuries ago and are still slaves of the whites.

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## FairAndUnbiased

beijing consensus said:


> india was made slaves by the whites centuries ago and are still slaves of the whites.



many people were made slaves by the whites, but now some are moving past that.

Africa is showing record growth and may become one of the largest economies within 30 years.

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## Lyrical Mockery

beijing consensus said:


> india was made slaves by the whites centuries ago and are still slaves of the whites.



so you believe. Far from truth buddy.


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## FairAndUnbiased

Lyrical Mockery said:


> so you believe. Far from truth buddy.



perception is also very important. why do people believe this, even if it is false? we ask that question of ourselves.


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## Hussein

FairAndUnbiased said:


> perception is also very important. why do people believe this, even if it is false? we ask that question of ourselves.


AGain you are speaking about a country that i am sure you didn't know anything about 
and you were never there
I am quite laughing when someone explains to the Indians what is India instead of them.
Only very stupid people don't know how stupid they are.


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## Vinod2070

FairAndUnbiased said:


> perception is also very important. *why do people believe this*, even if it is false? we ask that question of ourselves.


 
Which people would be those?

Brainwashed zombies and haters don't count.


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## Vinod2070

Hussein said:


> AGain you are speaking about a country that i am sure you didn't know anything about
> and you were never there
> I am quite laughing when someone explains to the Indians what is India instead of them.
> Only very stupid people don't know how stupid they are.


 
At this point, it is your country that is behaving like the most stupid.

And you are being incredibly stupid with your ignorant post.



> *Let us not forget Saddam's favorite quote, attributed to Khairallah Talfah; Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies . ....*



Needless to say, I didn't agree with him at that time.

Some people recently are causing me to do a rethink about at least one.


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## lem34

FairAndUnbiased said:


> many people were made slaves by the whites, but now some are moving past that.
> 
> Africa is showing record growth and may become one of the largest economies within 30 years.



in defence of their american masters these indias are very good at derailing the discussions lets get back on topic and talk about the inevitable demise of the US dollar and ignor indian trolls

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## davidson

China won 51 gold medals in 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES (Rank 1)
China won 51 gold medals in 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES (Rank 1)
China won 51 gold medals in 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES (Rank 1)

USA 36 gold medals
Russia 23
UK 19
Germany 16
Australia 14
S.Korea 13
Japan 9
Italy 8
France 7
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
India won 1 gold medal in 2008 OLYMPIC GAMES (Rank 96)


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## Jiang

^^^ hahaha wow. 

Didn't know UK got so many golds, is no wonder India used to be their colony.


----------



## boxer_B

> BEIJING: India has now got company of another country, Russia, in being the target of Chinese ire over the South China Sea controversy. China on Tuesday hit out against the Russian decision to explore for oil in sea areas that Beijing claims to be its own.
> 
> China has been vehemently opposed to ONGC Videsh Limited exploring for oil in the sea area along with a Vietnamese company. A Russian company has now joined the exploration work in the area.
> 
> Talking to reporters on Tuesday, foreign ministry Liu Weimin expressed the hope that foreign companies should respect and support the efforts of countries in South China Sea region to settle their disputes instead of meddling in the affair.
> 
> He also advised other countries in the region to meet each other half way with China, and avoid getting countries outside the region involved in the sea dispute.
> 
> Asserting that China has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters, Liu said China was committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes through direct negotiation and friendly consultation. The basis of negotiations would be respect for historical facts and international law, he said.



After warning India, China asks Russia to stay away from South China Sea - The Times of India

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## Bhairava

Chini will be soon cut to size...now that Russia too has joined the party.

Congrats Indo-Ruso-Viet co-operation...



INDIAN SOLDIER said:


> Why they are so eager to see middle finger from every nation? Any amusement or being curious!



Because the new found prosperity has gotten to their head and they think they can recreate one of those Tang/Ming/Qing ching chong empires or whatever by bullying neighbours.

Sadly they are soon to wake up and smell the coffee - or wonton soup !

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## dunhill

Based on the facts, Russia does not need gas/oil from Vietnam due to Russia has rich oil sources for itself. Russia also supplies for Euro.

Based on the political between Viet Nam, India which both countries are the main incomes for Russia weapons technologies. Russia must steps in. More than that, Viet Nam and India has very good, strong relationship with Russia this is why Russia joint Viet Nam base on "signs deal oil".

Likewise, Russia also will re-enter to Cam Ranh Bay due to a matter of U-Shape China claimed.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

maybe Russia will at least accept the challenge.....China issues harsh warning to indian and then the latter becomes quiet

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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> maybe Russia will at least accept the challenge.....China issues harsh warning to indian and then the latter becomes quiet



We are not quiet...but diplomatic..not act a petulent child crying out loud.

South China Sea property of world: SM Krishna - Economic Times

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## Ajaxpaul

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> maybe Russia will at least accept the challenge.....China issues harsh warning to indian and then the latter becomes quiet



Manmohan Singh is always quiet !!

Very harsh warning indeed.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Bhairava said:


> We are not quiet...but diplomatic..not act a petulent child crying out loud.
> 
> South China Sea property of world: SM Krishna - Economic Times



funny you say that, considering it is the likes of Krishna and your Chidambaram who are masters of crying out loud to the world

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## Bhairava

Ajaxpaul said:


> Manmohan Singh is always quiet !!
> 
> Very harsh warning indeed.



I lawled......








Abu Zolfiqar said:


> funny you say that, considering it is the likes of Krishna and your Chidambaram who are masters of crying out loud to the world



Whateva boy.

We are still there and we have diplomatically rebutted the Chinese drama queens.

Now Russia too has joined the oil party. A winsome partnership.

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## INDIAN SOLDIER

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> funny you say that, considering it is the likes of Krishna and your Chidambaram who are masters of crying out loud to the world



Does not action speaks louder than words?
Did we back off from SCS?

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## harpoon

No JF 17 engine for China/Pakistan.

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## dhavalm87

ab ayega mazza...first oil drillin n then naval ships on the pretext of safeguarding economic interests.... Scs is becoming a bhelpuri...

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## FairAndUnbiased

INDIAN SOLDIER said:


> Why they are so eager to see middle finger from every nation? Any amusement or being curious!
> 
> On behalf of BOND::



that's Japanese, and accurately describes Japan's current situation.

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## The HBS Guy

It would be a masterstroke if Russia and India floated a JV for oil and gas exploration and drilling in South China Sea.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Bhairava said:


> Whateva boy.



is this a joke? 




> We are still there and we have diplomatically rebutted the Chinese drama queens.



(empty breath of hot air)




> Now Russia too has joined the oil party. A winsome partnership.



Russia's economy is not what it was in the early-mid 2000s. 

They'll need foreign exchange and more trade with PRC and some regional countries.....

it's hard to imagine the Russians trying to escalate things militarily with China. For now, it seems South China Sea is in the grip of the Chinese; their navy also appears to becoming quite increasingly assertive



harpoon said:


> No JF 17 engine for China/Pakistan.



since Pakistan is the end user, i dont think the Russians will really care too much....only so many of those engines are produced and purchased per contract

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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i
> (empty breath of hot air)



The art of diplomacy, so negligibly known to Pakistanis and something they would kill to possess.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Russia's economy is not what it was in the early-mid 2000s.
> 
> They'll need foreign exchange and more trade with PRC and some regional countries.....
> 
> it's hard to imagine the Russians trying to escalate things militarily with China. For now, it seems South China Sea is in the grip of the Chinese; their navy also appears to becoming quite increasingly assertive



Now now. the bottom line is they have signed the deal with Vietnam and oil drilling will take place. Same with ONGC Videsh

The Chinese MWA (Ministry of Warning Affairs) is free to give its warnings though.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Bhairava said:


> The art of diplomacy, so negligibly known to Pakistanis and something they would kill to possess.



what? yapping like your leaders and not being taken seriously? 

what happened after 26/11 when your Pranab Mukhrajee begged the west not to arm the evil Pakistanis? Just days after that, we received Mar-1 missiles. So much for ''artful diplomacy'' 






> Now now. the bottom line is they have signed the deal with Vietnam and oil drilling will take place. Same with ONGC Videsh
> 
> The Chinese MWA (Ministry of Warning Affairs) is free to give its warnings though.



and their Navy is free to give its reply too

should be fun to watch; i think South China Sea will be one of the new flashpoints in the next few years given its strategic importance

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## The HBS Guy

Welcome to China's 'peaceful' rise.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

The HBS Guy said:


> Welcome to China's 'peaceful' rise.



nothing can be as 'peaceful' as your 'rise' right?

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## SP!TF!R3

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and their Navy is free to give its reply too
> 
> should be fun to watch; i think South China Sea will be one of the new flashpoints in the next few years given its strategic importance



by the way..doing anything *funny* with any country's ship in international water is equivalent to declaring war..now..china wouldn't risk a war with few big powers..what they can is it'll issue more warning and pressure them to withdraw..but this technique is not working properly..do they???


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## Sergi

Man multiple warnning threads Can't be in all at the same time 
But it nothing to discuss about Russia here. They are too good for china. Cut their cables and they will cut the cable cutters

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the cable cutter cutters were probably made in China


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## The HBS Guy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> nothing can be as 'peaceful' as your 'rise' right?



We are not the ones issuing random threats to countries. 

We are not the ones petitioning the entire universe warning each and every single country to not attend a Nobel Prize Ceremony. 

China is insecure and this insecurity is the reason why it behaves like a petulant child who shouts everytime somebody tries to touch his toy.

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## FairAndUnbiased

Sergi said:


> Man multiple warnning threads Can't be in all at the same time
> But it nothing to discuss about Russia here. They are too good for china. Cut their cables and they will cut the cable cutters



Russia cannot afford a hostile China. Russia is surrounded by NATO on the west, east and north. Its southern border is the only safe one, if it does not get a hostile China. China has far more IRBMs than ICBMs, making any attempted Russian aggression very very costly.

Russia tried that before in the 80's. It collapsed. Russia isn't that dumb.


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## SP!TF!R3

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Russia cannot afford a hostile China. Russia is surrounded by NATO on the west, east and north. Its southern border is the only safe one, if it does not get a hostile China. China has far more IRBMs than ICBMs, making any attempted Russian aggression very very costly.
> 
> Russia tried that before in the 80's. It collapsed. Russia isn't that dumb.



well nobody can afford a hostile China...but China too can't afford a hostile neighbourhood.but they are trying very hard to make a very hostile environment for itself..you can't count everything on your muscle buddy..

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## The HBS Guy

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Russia cannot afford a hostile China. Russia is surrounded by NATO on the west, east and north. Its southern border is the only safe one, if it does not get a hostile China. China has far more IRBMs than ICBMs, making any attempted Russian aggression very very costly.
> 
> Russia tried that before in the 80's. It collapsed. Russia isn't that dumb.



I don't think we have yet reached a stage where fanboys have to point their Inter(net) Continental Ballistic Missiles at each other. 

Before lecturing India and Russia, China would do well to look at its own actions and get out of P0K.

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## OrionHunter

Ah! The list gets longer by the day. So far, the Chinese (Who think they own the South China Sea) were having spats with:

India
Vietnam
Philippines
Indonesia
Japan
South Korea
Malaysia
Brunei

And now the latest member of the club is Russia! Welcome guys. 

The verbal diarrhea of the Chinese is legendary. So expect a lot of clap trap and hot air (Read: Methane) emanating from them.

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## Lonely Hermit

@Russians:
Welcome to the club comrades.
So till now how many nation did China warn?


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## ChinaToday

we will give warning to any one who try to steal our territory that include USA too if they try


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## FairAndUnbiased

ChinaToday said:


> we will give warning to any one who try to steal our territory that include USA too if they try



that's right. Unlike some, we are not afraid of talking against white people. That is because unlike them, we have not been conditioned to have shame in the color of our skin.


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## joekrish

China will have to find better ways to deal with this problem, it is going to get harder as time goes.

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## ChinaToday

The HBS Guy said:


> We are not the ones issuing random threats to countries.
> 
> We are not the ones petitioning the entire universe warning each and every single country to not attend a Nobel Prize Ceremony.
> 
> China is insecure and this insecurity is the reason why it behaves like a petulant child who shouts everytime somebody tries to touch his toy.



LOL at india ignorance you guys dont issue warning becuase you guys have no balls let face it india dont really have the guts to take on the big boys do you---oh i forgot you guys did in 1962 LOL


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## joekrish

ChinaToday said:


> we will give warning to any one who try to steal our territory that include USA too if they try



Warnings come free of cost, you can give as many as you want.

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## ChinaToday

OrionHunter said:


> Ah! The list gets longer by the day. So far, the Chinese (Who think they own the South China Sea) were having spats with:
> 
> India
> Vietnam
> Philippines
> Indonesia
> Japan
> South Korea
> Malaysia
> Brunei
> 
> And now the latest member of the club is Russia! Welcome guys.
> 
> The verbal diarrhea of the Chinese is legendary. So expect a lot of clap trap and hot air (Read: Methane) emanating from them.



not as funny as you guys claimed mumbai is better than shanghai, CWG is better than beijing olympics and 50% of NASA scientist are indians LOL



joekrish said:


> Warnings come free of cost, you can give as many as you want.



Exactly what GOI was thinking in 1962

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## The HBS Guy

ChinaToday said:


> LOL at india ignorance you guys dont issue warning becuase you guys have no balls let face it india dont really have the guts to take on the big boys do you---oh i forgot you guys did in 1962 LOL



Congratulations on discovering your balls. Wonder where they were a decade or so back. 

hmm..newly acquired balls I see!

Boy! That must be SOME feeling! 

Oh and honey, we don't have 'balls' here. We have the natural stuff.

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## harpoon

ChinaToday said:


> LOL at india ignorance you guys dont issue warning becuase you guys have no balls let face it india dont really have the guts to take on the big boys do you---oh i forgot you guys did in 1962 LOL



Ahh the 1962, where you guys conquered the territory you claim, sacrificing men and material in the process, then retreat back to your original position. With commanders like that we have nothing to worry.


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## SP!TF!R3

ChinaToday said:


> we will give warning to any one who try to steal our territory that include USA too if they try



but the warning thing isn't working..right???maybe their date expired..try something new..

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## joekrish

ChinaToday said:


> not as funny as you guys claimed mumbai is better than shanghai, CWG is better than beijing olympics and 50% of NASA scientist are indians LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what GOI was thinking in 1962



Exactly and what is China thinking now.

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## OrionHunter

ChinaToday said:


> LOL at india ignorance you guys dont issue warning becuase you guys have no balls let face it india dont really have the guts to take on the big boys do you---*oh i forgot you guys did in 1962 *LOL


Remember, your balls too got squashed and squished real bad by India in 1967 at Nathula. 800 balls to be exact!!! 


Nuff said.

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## shahadat hussain

ChinaToday said:


> not as funny as you guys claimed mumbai is better than shanghai, CWG is better than beijing olympics and 50% of NASA scientist are indians LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what GOI was thinking in 1962



The chinese couldn't do as much as a fart when it came for vacating Hong Kong and macau.... a part of china was a british colony till 1999... 

we don't need to go as far back as 1962 to count your shame.. but just a decade back. SHAME on those PLAN generals..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

shahadat hussain said:


> we don't need to go as far back as 1962 to count your shame.. but just a decade back. SHAME on those PLAN generals..



there are no ''generals'' in their (or other) navies


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## Sadhu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> funny you say that, considering it is the likes of Krishna and your Chidambaram who are masters of crying out loud to the world



I think this jehadi mentality has started affecting common person in pakistan.....they just want to pull trigger on slight raising of voice not accepting your view....... THey expect India shld go out and declare war or something just coz china issued a warning....
Shows the Immaturity And total lack of diplomacy in this ppl which is taking whole nation down the tube

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sadhu said:


> I think this jehadi mentality has started affecting common person in pakistan.....they just want to pull trigger on slight raising of voice not accepting your view....... THey expect India shld go out and declare war or something just coz china issued a warning....
> Shows the Immaturity And total lack of diplomacy in this ppl which is taking whole nation down the tube



jihadi mentality?

it's your people that wage war on Kashmiris when they throw STONES and order the occupation forces to leave


----------



## FairAndUnbiased

shahadat hussain said:


> The chinese couldn't do as much as a fart when it came for vacating Hong Kong and macau.... a part of china was a british colony till 1999...
> 
> we don't need to go as far back as 1962 to count your shame.. but just a decade back. SHAME on those PLAN generals..


 
Thatcher considered Hong Kong an integral part of the British Empire and wanted to extend the lease. We told her that the lease is over in 1997, like it or not and we were going to enforce it.That shocked her so much, she was literally tripping on her way out of the NPC Hall.

That is vastly different from India who asked Britain for permission to be independent. Britain could've said no and you would be proud citizens of the British Empire today. India is still subservient to Europeans. When Europeans say jump, Indians ask "how high masta?" I wish it wasn't this way but it is.


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## Sadhu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> jihadi mentality?
> 
> it's your people that wage war on Kashmiris when they throw STONES and order the occupation forces to leave


 
DAy night you guys talk of only Kashmir Kashmir .......Whatever you had ,u could not handle that and sold half of it to China....... Yeh kashmir pake bhi kya ukkaad loge.....
Stop being greedy Aur jitna hain utna sambal ne layak bano pehle phir kashmir mangna.......

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## ChinaToday

OrionHunter said:


> Remember, your balls too got squashed and squished real bad by India in 1967 at Nathula. 800 balls to be exact!!!
> 
> 
> Nuff said.



LOL at useless indian ccompare a mere skirmish with just a few chinese patrolling the border to an all out invasion of 1962


----------



## ChinaToday

SP!TF!R3 said:


> but the warning thing isn't working..right???maybe their date expired..try something new..



LOL at your blindness any one dare to start drilling in those dispute areas yet? if not those warning seem pretty effective dont you agreed?


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## Bhim

But Pakistani members keep dreaming of,* Pakistan+Russia+China*


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## Sadhu

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> jihadi mentality?
> 
> it's your people that wage war on Kashmiris when they throw STONES and order the occupation forces to leave


 
DAy night you guys talk of only Kashmir Kashmir .......Whatever you had ,u could not handle that and sold half of it to China....... Yeh kashmir pake bhi kya ukkaad loge.....
Stop being greedy Aur jitna hain utna sambal ne layak bano pehle phir kashmir mangna.......

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## Bhairava

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what? yapping like your leaders and not being taken seriously?
> 
> what happened after 26/11 when your Pranab Mukhrajee begged the west not to arm the evil Pakistanis? Just days after that, we received Mar-1 missiles. So much for ''artful diplomacy''



Having one rare reverse is nothing in a long line of sucesses.

We proliferated canadian fissile material for nuke weapon...yet the world believes we are good and we negotiated the nuke deal.

That's diplomacy mate.

We have a deep partnership with Israel...yet we have excellent relation ship with KSA (categorized as a strategic relationship)..not to mention equally good relationship wth third gun slinger -Iran.

That is diplomacy.

Same can be said of our multiffaceted relationship with USA and Russia..Diplomacy again !

As I said, diplomacy is something that is in paucity in Pak and something they would kill to acquire.





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and their Navy is free to give its reply too
> 
> should be fun to watch; i think South China Sea will be one of the new flashpoints in the next few years given its strategic importance


 

I dont have that much hope for Chinese though.....they are just good at warnings...

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## Shardul.....the lion

Oh my God, such a peaceful rise, warning half the major nations in Asia and world.
Does this consider as a warning, we will call it half warning,...

So now report card of Ministry of Warnings, Authorative regime of China is,

Vietnam 3
India 3
Philiphines 2
Korea 1
Japan 2
USA 2
Australia 1
Pakistan 1 (below the belt warning, a south asian country should act against uighyur terrorist )
Russia 1/2

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## Rechoice

ChinaToday said:


> we will give warning to any one who try to steal our territory that include USA too if they try



Robbers try blame others, chinese are liar.

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## Shardul.....the lion

Shardul.....the lion said:


> Oh my God, such a peaceful rise, warning half the major nations in Asia and world.
> Does this consider as a warning, we will call it half warning,...
> 
> So now report card of Ministry of Warnings, Authorative regime of China is,
> 
> Vietnam 3
> India 3
> Philiphines 2
> Korea 1
> Japan 2
> USA 2
> Australia 1
> Pakistan 1 (below the belt warning, a south asian country should act against uighyur terrorist )
> Russia 1/2



Update philiphines from 2 to 3 after new warning to philiphines by General

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

China is trying to turn the areas not dispute into areas dispute by giving warning noisy.
Nine dashed that they have drawn no legal basis, it is not valid. It is completely contrary to the provisions in UNCLOS 1982. It will break serious international law of sea.

Not abetting for intention of them.


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## Sashan

Shardul.....the lion said:


> Update philiphines from 2 to 3 after new warning to philiphines by General



Maybe we need a sticky thread just to keep track of the press releases by the Warnings ministry of China.

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## Rechoice

Sashan said:


> Maybe we need a sticky thread just to keep track of the press releases by the Warnings ministry of China.



Warnings ministry of China does his job as well.

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## Nan Yang

Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> China is trying to turn the areas not dispute into areas dispute by giving warning noisy.
> Nine dashed that they have drawn no legal basis, it is not valid. It is completely contrary to the provisions in UNCLOS 1982. It will break serious international law of sea.
> 
> Not abetting for intention of them.




From the map, Spratly Islands do not seem to belong to Vietnam.

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## Korean

Nan Yang said:


> From the map, Spratly Islands do not seem to belong to Vietnam.


Neither to China.

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

Nan Yang said:


> From the map, Spratly Islands do not seem to belong to Vietnam.



The map has noted that they are "disputed islands". Dark spots.

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## Fanling Monk

Korean said:


> Neither to China.




At least China officially claim them, while Vietnam occupies 40 islands without officially claiming them according to this map.



Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> The map has noted that they are "disputed islands". Dark spots.




If they are disputed and Vietnam already occupied 40 islands then why you boys here are crying fouls?


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## Pak47

They told Russia:
"Yo, hey man. We going to be doing some experiments in the south china sea, so be careful of that region bro."

They told India:
"Listen chump if you show your face around this area even once your ships will learn to dive"


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## jbond197

Gazprom is already drilling in South China sea apart from Exxon and OVL is going to resume its drilling soon.. Who cares what lil' Chins have to say??

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## Amolthebest

Fanling Monk said:


> At least China officially claim them, while Vietnam occupies 40 islands without officially claiming them according to this map.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they are disputed and Vietnam already occupied 40 islands then why you boys here are crying fouls?



Please dont do anything stupid. Future so called superpower couldn't afford one more spanking



Pak47 said:


> They told Russia:
> "Yo, hey man. We going to be doing some experiments in the south china sea, so be careful of that region bro."
> 
> They told India:
> "Listen chump if you show your face around this area even once your ships will learn to dive"



Thanksgod China is friend of Pakistan. China atleast give them some reason to celebrate. Unfortunately their country failed to do it

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## jbond197

Go Nuke, ASEAN!! The solution to all your problems.. Join Japanese in the party and bully will remain with in its limits..

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## Bobby

China is making fool of herself....Just issuing warning after warning and it looks like nobody is bothered by these warnings....all nations are treating China like a barking dog who never bit....

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## Nirvana

What else can china do other than issuing Warnings every other day ?

We enjoy indisputable sovereignity over SCS - What a Joke !!

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## dunhill

Fanling Monk said:


> *At least China officially claim them*, while Vietnam occupies 40 islands without officially claiming them according to this map.
> 
> 
> If they are disputed and Vietnam already occupied 40 islands then why you boys here are crying fouls?



You don't know or you know but you just can't admit it?

Spratlly Islands was belong to Viet Nam why does Viet Nam file claims for? Does China file officially claims Hainan, Hongkong islands? Once it belong to you why do you need to "*officially file claims*"?

Plus, Spratly Islands, Paracel Islands was belong to Viet Nam, this is why Viet Nam has more Islands than the other countries fault claims specially your country.

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## Fanling Monk

dunhill said:


> You don't know or you know but you just can't admit it?
> 
> Spratlly Islands was belong to Viet Nam why does Viet Nam file claims for? Does China file officially claims Hainan, Hongkong islands? Once it belong to you why do you need to "*officially file claims*"?
> 
> Plus, Spratly Islands, Paracel Islands was belong to Viet Nam, this is why Viet Nam has more Islands than the other countries fault claims specially your country.




What's your next claim, India?


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## Fasih Khan

Bobby said:


> China is making fool of herself....Just issuing warning after warning and it looks like nobody is bothered by these warnings....all nations are treating China like a barking dog who never bit....



*The day's approching soon when you jumping Indians would be taken care of by (ARA) Asian Regional Allies. I would love to see no mercy on the hour.*


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## dunhill

Fanling Monk said:


> What's your next claim, India?



Aren't you of track? I think you do.

Will you understand or admit the truth even though it hurts?

If you do, then I tell you now. Viet Nam never and ever file claims if it is not belong to Viet Nam. Unlike China greedy, its will file claims whatever it could.

If China #1 super power, China will claims any where which has Chinese people on it and even *Chinese waste* on the land China will claims it too. That 100% for sure. 

Sadly, China will never ever #1 that is why the China's *"future claims"* still on pending.

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## Fanling Monk

dunhill said:


> Aren't you of track? I think you do.
> 
> Will you understand or admit the truth even though it hurts?
> 
> If you do, then I tell you now. Viet Nam never and ever file claims if it is not belong to Viet Nam. Unlike China greedy, its will file claims whatever it could.
> 
> If China #1 super power, China will claims any where which has Chinese people on it and even *Chinese waste* on the land China will claims it too. That 100% for sure.
> 
> Sadly, China will never ever #1 that is why the China's *"future claims"* still on pending.




Come on Bro, you ranting same thing over and over, and is getting monotonous. Just calm down.

FYI I was making joke with your friend that he posted a map that's negative for the debate here. You jumped without knowing what I was talking about.


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

Fanling Monk said:


> Come on Bro, you ranting same thing over and over, and is getting monotonous. Just calm down.
> 
> FYI I was making joke with your friend that he posted a map that's negative for the debate here. You jumped without knowing what I was talking about.



But why China is jumping up and down like monkeys when Vietnam joint ventures oil with other countries in Vietnam's EEZs?

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## SXNJ

Does anybody can show the proof that these oil fields are in the area China claim?
I read a news from Russia yesterday which said they are not in the disputed area

I also didn't see any official protest from Chinese gov, what OP post is the overread from the media


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## HZR2011

That red dotted lines also covers the coastal lines of brunei and malaysia and china is ver very far from there,how can they claim it as theirs??? Chineese needs 1000's of Km of coastal lines but brunei and malaysia can't have even 5% of that ???How fair is this??

just looks at the red dotted line... any sane person will say it's really unfair


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## SXNJ

you should understand the situation especially from India
have they exploited a drop of oil from disputed area? What they sign with viets is crap paper


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## Fanling Monk

SXNJ said:


> Does anybody can show the proof that these oil fields are in the area China claim?
> I read a news from Russia yesterday which said they are not in the disputed area
> 
> I also didn't see any official protest from Chinese gov, what OP post is the overread from the media




The Russian drilling might be on Vietnam's littoral water, I'm not too sure. China might have just advise Russia, as a friendly nation, not to come in these muddy water until the dispute areas are resolved.


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

SXNJ said:


> Does anybody can show the proof that these oil fields are in the area China claim?
> I read a news from Russia yesterday which said they are not in the disputed area
> 
> I also didn't see any official protest from Chinese gov, what OP post is the overread from the media



But all "warning" of the chinese government has sent to the companies of Vietnam, US, UK, India, Russia ... when they oil in Vietnam's EEZs. Similar to the Philippines.


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## SXNJ

Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> But all "warning" of the chinese government has sent to the companies of Vietnam, US, UK, India, Russia ... when they oil in Vietnam's EEZs. Similar to the Philippines.



China never give the warning to a detail country, what my understanding is this kind of warning is just a political attitude


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

Look at blocks 127 and 128, where Vietnam's PetroVietnam and India's group ONGC will jointly exploit oil. 
Why has China warning it? WHY?
Note that the 200 Vietnam's EEZ lines is light blue. (dash dotted line)















http://www.ongcvidesh.com/NewsContent.aspx?ID=117&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

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## Sadhu

Fasih Khan said:


> *The day's approching soon when you jumping Indians would be taken care of by (ARA) Asian Regional Allies. I would love to see no mercy on the hour.*



I guess what i heard is true pakistan have become a girl cheerleaders scout for china......Or should i say *cheerleaders gone wild*" GO China Go"

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## Great Sachin

Fasih Khan said:


> *The day's approching soon when you jumping Indians would be taken care of by (ARA) Asian Regional Allies. I would love to see no mercy on the hour.*



So you are China Spokesperson


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## ballistic

Robbers??? You might be able to fool some but you can't fool them all. Your country are the true robbers the spratelys are closer to Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines but yet your country hold over 40 islands. Greedy?


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## Dalai Lama

@Battle of Bach Dang River

Didn't realise how close blocks 127 and 128 were to Vietnam. It's a no brainier really. China can whine all it wants.

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## ballistic

Bollocks! 

If we talk about historical claims Champa/Malay people would own the spratelys. Vietnamese were in the red river delta. The islands were occupied by austronesians long before you viets came around, therefore the Chinese have equal claim.

Your country is not so innocent my friend, china is giving you a taste of your own medicine. Lol. How about the cay island invasion?

"The sixth largest Spratly island. Only 1.75 miles (2.82*km) from Northeast Cay and can be seen before the horizon. Previously a breeding place for birds and covered with trees and guano. Export of guano was once carried out "on a considerable scale." Fringing reef partly above water at high tide. Vietnam erected its first lighthouse in the Spratlys here in October 1993 and built an airstrip. Has a three-story building, garrisoned by soldiers. Philippine military controlled the island before early 1970s. South Vietnamese forces (Republic of Vietnam) invaded the island in 1975, when Filipino soldiers guarding the island attended the birthday party of their commanding officer based in the nearby Northeast Cay. A confirmed report came out that Vietnamese prostitutes were sent by Vietnamese officials to the birthday party, supposedly a sign of good brotherhood between the forces, but was actually used to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding the island. Filipino forces apparently planned on attacking the island, thus it would have led to a war, but Vietnamese forces were able to erect a huge garrison in the island within few weeks, forcing Filipino officials to abort the plan. Since then, more soldiers were assigned to Parola Island (North East Cay), to avoid it from happening again. This was confirmed by interviews with soldiers involved in an episode of the defunct ABS-CBN's Magandang Gabi Bayan (Good Evening Nation) program. See Policies, activities and history of the Philippines in Spratly Islands#Southwest Cay invasion for more details. Part of North Danger Reef."

"We own more islands because it's ours." Lol... You can't fool them all. I say everybody get the hell out of scs and let the Chinese and Vietnamese duke it out. 

Wiki cay invasion


Have a look at how many islands Vietnam occupies, greedy? Learn to share my friend. You can't take all for self. Lol

wiki/Spratly_Islands_dispute

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

This is two blocks 05.2 and 05.3, where Russian Group Gazprom will venture to exploit oil with Vietnam. It lies entirely within the 200 nautical mile Vietnam's EEZ, but the China's claims unreasonably 9 dotted also runs through.

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## SP!TF!R3

ballistic said:


> Bollocks!
> 
> If we talk about historical claims Champa/Malay people would own the spratelys. Vietnamese were in the red river delta. The islands were occupied by austronesians long before you viets came around, therefore the Chinese have equal claim.
> 
> Your country is not so innocent my friend, china is giving you a taste of your own medicine. Lol. How about the cay island invasion?
> 
> "The sixth largest Spratly island. Only 1.75 miles (2.82*km) from Northeast Cay and can be seen before the horizon. Previously a breeding place for birds and covered with trees and guano. Export of guano was once carried out "on a considerable scale." Fringing reef partly above water at high tide. Vietnam erected its first lighthouse in the Spratlys here in October 1993 and built an airstrip. Has a three-story building, garrisoned by soldiers. Philippine military controlled the island before early 1970s. South Vietnamese forces (Republic of Vietnam) invaded the island in 1975, when Filipino soldiers guarding the island attended the birthday party of their commanding officer based in the nearby Northeast Cay. A confirmed report came out that Vietnamese prostitutes were sent by Vietnamese officials to the birthday party, supposedly a sign of good brotherhood between the forces, but was actually used to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding the island. Filipino forces apparently planned on attacking the island, thus it would have led to a war, but Vietnamese forces were able to erect a huge garrison in the island within few weeks, forcing Filipino officials to abort the plan. Since then, more soldiers were assigned to Parola Island (North East Cay), to avoid it from happening again. This was confirmed by interviews with soldiers involved in an episode of the defunct ABS-CBN's Magandang Gabi Bayan (Good Evening Nation) program. See Policies, activities and history of the Philippines in Spratly Islands#Southwest Cay invasion for more details. Part of North Danger Reef."
> 
> "We own more islands because it's ours." Lol... You can't fool them all. I say everybody get the hell out of scs and let the Chinese and Vietnamese duke it out.
> 
> Wiki cay invasion
> 
> 
> Have a look at how many islands Vietnam occupies, greedy? Learn to share my friend. You can't take all for self. Lol
> 
> wiki/Spratly_Islands_dispute



well,all the disputed islands are either close to Vietnam,Philippines or Malaysia...but i dont know why China is claiming these islands..they are nearly 1000 kms from the mainland.and they are claiming almost all the islands..

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## DelhiDareDevil

Would love Russia, India, Vietnam, Japan, Philippines, Indonesia, USA, Japan launch a simultaneous attack on China.

They would deserve it, for trying to bully other nations!

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## T-Rex

DelhiDareDevil said:


> Would love Russia, India, Vietnam, Japan, Philippines, Indonesia, USA, Japan launch a simultaneous attack on China.
> 
> They would deserve it, for trying to bully other nations!



*Soon, your wish for a simultaneous attack will be fulfilled by China and Pakistan!*


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## Lonely Hermit

> T-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Soon, your wish for a simultaneous attack will be fulfilled by China and Pakistan!*
Click to expand...

I didn't knew you were there official spokesperson.

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## GR!FF!N

by the way..when smaller countries like Philippines can't be buzzed by Chinese warning...think what reply they get from other larger countries..

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## GoodBoy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> maybe Russia will at least accept the challenge.....China issues harsh warning to indian and then the latter becomes quiet


 
The way China issues warnings on daily basis to everyone it's losing it's importance and turning into a joke.So India and other countries are gettiong bored.

Unless China initiates a attack no one will take it seriously.



boxer_B said:


> After warning India, China asks Russia to stay away from South China Sea - The Times of India


 
WOW now Russia is also warned... sounds even funnier now.China seems to be uniting more and more countries into the list who are gettong annoyed by the so called "peaceful chinese rise".



SP!TF!R3 said:


> well,all the disputed islands are either close to Vietnam,Philippines or Malaysia...but i dont know why China is claiming these islands..they are nearly 1000 kms from the mainland.and they are claiming almost all the islands..


 
China might start claiming it's neighbouring countries as well if not controlled and rebuked in time.


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## ganesh177

Fasih Khan said:


> *The day's approching soon when you jumping Indians would be taken care of by (ARA) Asian Regional Allies. I would love to see no mercy on the hour.*


 
Wtf is ara ? Can you elaborate ?


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## Abingdonboy

In a purely maritime sense China at present, and certainly not in the future, is in no position to threaten the IN/RuN in the naval arena in the SCS.

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## ganesh177

Fanling Monk said:


> The Russian drilling might be on Vietnam's littoral water, I'm not too sure. China might have just advise Russia, as a friendly nation, not to come in these muddy water until the dispute areas are resolved.


 
Funny you call russia a friendly nation. Looks like you are aware that russia can whip your arse real bad.

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## EastSea

ballistic said:


> Bollocks!
> 
> If we talk about historical claims Champa/Malay people would own the spratelys. Vietnamese were in the red river delta. The islands were occupied by austronesians long before you viets came around, therefore the Chinese have equal claim.
> 
> Your country is not so innocent my friend, china is giving you a taste of your own medicine. Lol. How about the cay island invasion?
> 
> "The sixth largest Spratly island. Only 1.75 miles (2.82*km) from Northeast Cay and can be seen before the horizon. Previously a breeding place for birds and covered with trees and guano. Export of guano was once carried out "on a considerable scale." Fringing reef partly above water at high tide. Vietnam erected its first lighthouse in the Spratlys here in October 1993 and built an airstrip. Has a three-story building, garrisoned by soldiers. Philippine military controlled the island before early 1970s. South Vietnamese forces (Republic of Vietnam) invaded the island in 1975, when Filipino soldiers guarding the island attended the birthday party of their commanding officer based in the nearby Northeast Cay. A confirmed report came out that Vietnamese prostitutes were sent by Vietnamese officials to the birthday party, supposedly a sign of good brotherhood between the forces, but was actually used to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding the island. Filipino forces apparently planned on attacking the island, thus it would have led to a war, but Vietnamese forces were able to erect a huge garrison in the island within few weeks, forcing Filipino officials to abort the plan. Since then, more soldiers were assigned to Parola Island (North East Cay), to avoid it from happening again. This was confirmed by interviews with soldiers involved in an episode of the defunct ABS-CBN's Magandang Gabi Bayan (Good Evening Nation) program. See Policies, activities and history of the Philippines in Spratly Islands#Southwest Cay invasion for more details. Part of North Danger Reef."
> 
> "We own more islands because it's ours." Lol... You can't fool them all. I say everybody get the hell out of scs and let the Chinese and Vietnamese duke it out.
> 
> Wiki cay invasion
> 
> 
> Have a look at how many islands Vietnam occupies, greedy? Learn to share my friend. You can't take all for self. Lol
> 
> wiki/Spratly_Islands_dispute



ancient Maps of Vietnam.


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## Guli Danda

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what? yapping like your leaders and not being taken seriously?
> 
> what happened after 26/11 when your Pranab Mukhrajee begged the west not to arm the evil Pakistanis? Just days after that, we received Mar-1 missiles. So much for ''artful diplomacy''
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and their Navy is free to give its reply too
> 
> should be fun to watch; i think South China Sea will be one of the new flashpoints in the next few years given its strategic importance


Why are non issue Pakstanis so interested?
SHOO SHOO!


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## Guli Danda

Fanling Monk said:


> Come on Bro, you ranting same thing over and over, and is getting monotonous. Just calm down.
> 
> FYI I was making joke with your friend that he posted a map that's negative for the debate here. You jumped without knowing what I was talking about.


can you reply to his subject of official claims?or you don't have a proper reply?You are deviating all the time!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Bhairava said:


> We proliferated canadian fissile material for nuke weapon...yet the world believes we are good and we negotiated the nuke deal



when you say the ''world'' you probably mean the EU & US, which sees india in the future as some kind of bulwark of sorts against China...

if the world is to be believed, we proliferated centrifuge designs.....but that's a whole other subject altogether. Back in the early seventies IAEA had chalked out a very ambitious program for Pakistan that included 24 nuclear plants at an average capacity of 600 MW each. Eight were to have been commissioned in the eighties and 16 in the nineties. By the year 2000. 2/3 of Pakistan's power supply would had been fulfilled by nuclear. But then Pakistan went with the bomb thing and everything collapsed...

but that ''collapse'' was a tradeoff. Afterall, everyone knows that your nuclear test explosions were all but ''good'' or ''peaceful''





> That's diplomacy mate.



you're name looks better in pink kid.....so much for your diplomacy 





> We have a deep partnership with Israel...yet we have excellent relation ship with KSA (categorized as a strategic relationship)..not to mention equally good relationship wth third gun slinger -Iran.



Iran? You're not being serious are you?? 

every Iranian i've been coming across has little adulation for you people at the moment; your country voted twice against their favour @ UN....you delinquents aren't even paying them money owed for oil they sold you.





> Same can be said of our multiffaceted relationship with USA and Russia..Diplomacy again !



well using that logic, Yemen does the same thing. What's your point 

indians are not in a position to talk about diplomacy when it is at loggerheads with all of its neighbours




> As I said, diplomacy is something that is in paucity in Pak and something they would kill to acquire.



actually my only complaint would be our domestic policies

our foreign policy suits Pakistan quite well.....geo-politics and vested interests may not align with ours, but we're on the right side of history so screw the indian definition of ''diplomacy''


Pakistan is holding its ground (despite a total conspicuous lack of visionary leadership) , and your country is currently engaging in boot-polishing




> I dont have that much hope for Chinese though.....they are just good at warnings...



i wonder if 1962 was a ''warning'' for things to come


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## Bukhari.syed

There are going to be harsh relations among them


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## GR!FF!N

Bukhari.syed said:


> There are going to be harsh relations among them



well,China are going to have many countries with "Harsh Relation"...


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## Tshering22

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> when you say the ''world'' you probably mean the EU & US, which sees india in the future as some kind of bulwark of sorts against China...



No actually The ASEAN countries that are in the region and fed up of CCP's bullying. Currently there are Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Vietnam & Philippines concerned about Chinese bullying. I don't think that is either EU or US. Check the world map.



> if the world is to be believed, we proliferated centrifuge designs.....but that's a whole other subject altogether. Back in the early seventies IAEA had chalked out a very ambitious program for Pakistan that included 24 nuclear plants at an average capacity of 600 MW each. Eight were to have been commissioned in the eighties and 16 in the nineties. By the year 2000. 2/3 of Pakistan's power supply would had been fulfilled by nuclear. But then Pakistan went with the bomb thing and everything collapsed...



See. You were not even on the page for the nuke arsenal as it was developed for your new master. But one race and where it got you.



> but that ''collapse'' was a tradeoff. Afterall, everyone knows that your nuclear test explosions were all but ''good'' or ''peaceful''



Peaceful? Hardly. It was just to make sure that the Reds don't get uppity.



> every Iranian i've been coming across has little adulation for you people at the moment; your country voted twice against their favour @ UN



You clearly don't know enough Iranians then, kid. Travel around a little; it might help you understand the larger world around you.



> ....you delinquents aren't even paying them money owed for oil they sold you.



If Iran accepts USD, we'd pay them hard cash. Sleeping too much eh? Check the news on that. 50% gold and 50% in INR. Unlike you, we don't like to take free stuff and then backbite. We pay for what we buy. 



> indians are not in a position to talk about diplomacy when it is at loggerheads with all of its neighbours



Pakistan and Jamaatis don't classify as all neighbors. Name one war with either Bangladesh, SL, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives or Mauritius we had. 

Only you and your new masters have been pesky enough to get on our wrong end.




> our foreign policy suits Pakistan quite well.....geo-politics and vested interests may not align with ours, but we're on the right side of history so screw the indian definition of ''diplomacy''



Our diplomacy serves us well as well; we maintain relations that not even European neutral nations can maintain; Iran, Saudi and Israel all three engaged simultaneously. You forget who's our strategy guru. 




> Pakistan is holding its ground (despite a total conspicuous lack of visionary leadership) , and your country is currently engaging in boot-polishing



With USAID annually coming in and soft loans from China to keep up your military? Yeah I can see who does the boot polishing..



> i wonder if 1962 was a ''warning'' for things to come



67 proved right enough for them while 71, 87 and 99 was good for you.

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## ballistic

SP!TF!R3 said:


> well,all the disputed islands are either close to Vietnam,Philippines or Malaysia...but i dont know why China is claiming these islands..they are nearly 1000 kms from the mainland.and they are claiming almost all the islands..



If we're to say the paracel islands is part of china then claiming the spratleys is not much distant from the Vietnamese claims to the spratleys. Let's not be so bias on our views and opinions.

All countries in dispute are claiming few to all islands lets not focus only on chinas claims. The main point is china is seeking negotiations.

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## illusion8

china be a man attack the russians or indians or vietnamese or the philippinos or the japanese or the south koreans or the americans or the jews, but stop attacking the defenseless tibetans and uighurs.


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## ballistic

EastSea said:


> ancient Maps of Vietnam.



Map of the Philipines.


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## aarchitg

Pak47 said:


> They told Russia:
> "Yo, hey man. We going to be doing some experiments in the south china sea, so be careful of that region bro."



Russian responce-Blah u and ur stupid experiments,go and copy paste something,dont bother us.



Pak47 said:


> They told India:
> "Listen chump if you show your face around this area even once your ships will learn to dive"



Indian response-This is warning number 367,967,234, pass the gas and start drilling.


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## ballistic

Geographically the Spratleys are closest to Malaysia and the Philipines. The 2 countries have been open and fair to claims by surrounding countries.

Historically there was no southern Vietnam until the invasion on Champa in 1471-ish. The Vietnamese are late comers. A Chinese sailor by the name of Zheng He disovered the islands around 1405-1433. Zheng He sailed throughout southeast asia and to africa. Vietnamese never set foot on the Spratleys or had a valid claim to the islands until the Champa invasion and after annexing Champa which is now known as central and southern Vietnam. 

Austronesians were sailing and fishing on these islands before Vietnamese and Chinese. Austronesians were the greatest seafarers in ancient time you can find their descendants still living in Madagascar islands. Vietnam controls over 50%, greedy? Learn to share.

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## ballistic

Ancient map of Vietnam and Champa.


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## FairAndUnbiased

illusion8 said:


> china be a man attack the russians or indians or vietnamese or the philippinos or the japanese or the south koreans or the americans or the jews, but stop attacking the defenseless tibetans and uighurs.



Already happened. I think India should stop attacking helpless tribals and Muslims and Kashmiris. Unlike China, India has never dared go to war against a major power. The biggest European power they attacked in all of history was Portugal


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## DelhiDareDevil

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Already happened. I think India should stop attacking helpless tribals and Muslims and Kashmiris. Unlike China, India has never dared go to war against a major power. The biggest European power they attacked in all of history was Portugal



China needs to stop killing innocent people in Xinxiang and Tibet first of all before you can question other nations.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Funny that there is a mass ban on the Indian members in this troll topic.


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## DelhiDareDevil

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Funny that there is a mass ban on the Indian members in this troll topic.



Not funny if you intellectual to enough to understand this a Pakistan forum.


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## FairAndUnbiased

DelhiDareDevil said:


> China needs to stop killing innocent people in Xinxiang and Tibet first of all before you can question other nations.



Hans are being killed by Uighurs and Tibetans, not the other way around. Just because someone is weak, doesn't mean they're innocent.


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

ballistic said:


> Ancient map of Vietnam and Champa.




*My friend, let me see the map of the United States of America and the map of China at that same time?*

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

ballistic said:


> Bollocks!
> 
> If we talk about historical claims Champa/Malay people would own the spratelys. Vietnamese were in the red river delta. The islands were occupied by austronesians long before you viets came around, therefore the Chinese have equal claim.
> 
> Your country is not so innocent my friend, china is giving you a taste of your own medicine. Lol. How about the cay island invasion?
> 
> "The sixth largest Spratly island. Only 1.75 miles (2.82*km) from Northeast Cay and can be seen before the horizon. Previously a breeding place for birds and covered with trees and guano. Export of guano was once carried out "on a considerable scale." Fringing reef partly above water at high tide. Vietnam erected its first lighthouse in the Spratlys here in October 1993 and built an airstrip. Has a three-story building, garrisoned by soldiers. Philippine military controlled the island before early 1970s. South Vietnamese forces (Republic of Vietnam) invaded the island in 1975, when Filipino soldiers guarding the island attended the birthday party of their commanding officer based in the nearby Northeast Cay. A confirmed report came out that Vietnamese prostitutes were sent by Vietnamese officials to the birthday party, supposedly a sign of good brotherhood between the forces, but was actually used to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding the island. Filipino forces apparently planned on attacking the island, thus it would have led to a war, but Vietnamese forces were able to erect a huge garrison in the island within few weeks, forcing Filipino officials to abort the plan. Since then, more soldiers were assigned to Parola Island (North East Cay), to avoid it from happening again. This was confirmed by interviews with soldiers involved in an episode of the defunct ABS-CBN's Magandang Gabi Bayan (Good Evening Nation) program. See Policies, activities and history of the Philippines in Spratly Islands#Southwest Cay invasion for more details. Part of North Danger Reef."
> 
> "We own more islands because it's ours." Lol... You can't fool them all. I say everybody get the hell out of scs and let the Chinese and Vietnamese duke it out.
> 
> Wiki cay invasion
> 
> 
> Have a look at how many islands Vietnam occupies, greedy? Learn to share my friend. You can't take all for self. Lol
> 
> wiki/Spratly_Islands_dispute



*My friend, you did not know that present Vietnam is "the United of DaiViet state and Champa state"? So we inherit all things of the Daiviet and Champa ago.*


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## INDIAISM

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what? yapping like your leaders and not being taken seriously?
> 
> what happened after 26/11 when your Pranab Mukhrajee begged the west not to arm the evil Pakistanis? Just days after that, we received Mar-1 missiles. So much for ''artful diplomacy''


See how our diplomacy work...Now most of the xountries all over the world accepts the fact that Paksistan is the major exporter of terrorism....and inspite of you being one of the victim of terrorism{Althrough because of your own deeds}....we made sure countries all over recognise you as a culprit....that's what we call diplomacy....







> and their Navy is free to give its reply too
> 
> should be fun to watch; i think South China Sea will be one of the new flashpoints in the next few years given its strategic importance


fun to watch what....your friend being isolated....Now don't tell me Paksistan will station its Aircraft carrier to safe guard China's Interest.....Come on yaar they already Have Viets,Japan,Australia,America,Philipines,South Korea,India agaist them.....Russia will be the Huge Bear Cherry on the cake


*Man ye china hai Rajnikant nhi*

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## ballistic

Battle of Bach Dang River said:


> *My friend, you did not know that present Vietnam is "the United of DaiViet state and Champa state"? So we inherit all things of the Daiviet and Champa ago.*



I wanted to show more than the one sided views I've been seeing tossed around on d.pk. Vietnamese claims to the islands come after annexing Champa before then their was nothing. A Chinese sailor discovered the islands before the annexation of Champa Vietnam. China also has a valid historical claim, same to the PI and m'asia. For you to say Vietnam owns and occupies more than 50% because they are historically your shows your arrogance and ignorance. 

Anyway this is not a US problem, however, we will protect our PI friend. We'll sit back and watch the Viets and Chinese duke it out. We haven't forgot about the French and Vietnam war ya know??

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## EastSea

ballistic said:


> I wanted to show more than the one sided views I've been seeing tossed around on d.pk. Vietnamese claims to the islands come after annexing Champa before then their was nothing. A Chinese sailor discovered the islands before the annexation of Champa Vietnam. China also has a valid historical claim, same to the PI and m'asia. For you to say Vietnam owns and occupies more than 50% because they are historically your shows your arrogance and ignorance.
> 
> Anyway this is not a US problem, however, we will protect our PI friend. We'll sit back and watch the Viets and Chinese duke it out. We haven't forgot about the French and Vietnam war ya know??



I reminder you that America discovered by Clistoff Columbus not Britain citizen, but North America belong to England first before it became independent country as Unite States today.

Related to sovereignty of any country is that: Who exercised official administration first.

Vietnam don't have problem with Malaysia, Vietnam and Malaysia submitted to UN common request under UNCLOS in 2009. 
I think Vietnam and Philippine can solve it by peaceful negotiation.

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## Battle of Bach Dang River

ballistic said:


> I wanted to show more than the one sided views I've been seeing tossed around on d.pk. Vietnamese claims to the islands come after annexing Champa before then their was nothing. A Chinese sailor discovered the islands before the annexation of Champa Vietnam. China also has a valid historical claim, same to the PI and m'asia. For you to say Vietnam owns and occupies more than 50% because they are historically your shows your arrogance and ignorance.
> 
> Anyway this is not a US problem, however, we will protect our PI friend. We'll sit back and watch the Viets and Chinese duke it out. We haven't forgot about the French and Vietnam war ya know??



Daiviet and Champa have merged become Vietnam today.
Please tell me, how a country smaller and weaker like Vietnam can possess the islands, when it was managed by China?
Note that we have managed peacefully two archipelago from the 15th century, not used any force to rob them.
You said that"A Chinese sailor discovered the islands before the annexation of Champa Vietnam". What do you have anything to prove it?
And does that mean? Can compare him with Cristoforo Colombo?

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## 帅的一匹

Integrated Xinhua news agency, Turkey's prime minister Erdogan stated heated rhetoric criticism of the United Nations Security Council, said that this mechanism has defects on the crisis in Syria, and accused the one or two permanent members of the Security Council " to the crisis in Syria is responsible for.Xinhua News Agency yesterday released articles condemn Turkey irresponsible speech. The article said, from sorts of signs, Ankara is not only tough on the Syria issue , and more and more acts recklessly remarks on permanent members of the UN Security Council.


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## HongWu

Chinese news source

The Russian Defense Ministry sources said Saturday, the Russian military is discussed in June this year, the Russian Pacific Fleet and Beihai fleet at sea the Chinese naval real live-fire exercises, exercise locations in Japan Haidabide Bay; in addition, the Russian " peace mission in -2013 " air army joint military exercises are high-level multiple round.

Belonging to the information bureau of the Russian Defense Ministry of the Russian " Red Star " TV " to serve the country " column says, this year the Russian navy in the sea of Japan joint exercises, signed between the Russian Defense Minister Shoigu to visit Beijing, and signed " peace mission two army -2013 " Russia-China joint anti-terror exercise. At present, Russia and China are in active negotiations.

Russia said the Russian Navy League play, this will be the largest " ". In fact, precisely, is " Russia navy in recent years the largest ", may have more than 20 ships, tugs are included. The predicted joint exercises out ship number equivalence, estimation of Russia will each 10 ships, but in last year's joint exercises in the Yellow Sea is the result of 16 Chinese naval ship, the Russian Pacific fleet includes tug, a total of 7 vessels.

Russian military experts believe that, this will be held military exercises at sea bright spot is " crossing " and " cooperative ", followed by the exercise scenario that joint maritime defense and meet operational, seize the theater air, sea, electromagnetic power cooperative.

Russian experts said, China Sea fleet will pass through the Tsushima Strait or the Korea Strait, China Sea fleet if can pass through the soya strait between Russia and Japan, after a series of chain between Russian controlled, directly into the North Pacific, it can be called on the U.S. - Japan is a " shake ".

It is reported, in addition to the Russian Navy League play in the sea of Japan, Russia's " peace mission -2013 " joint anti-terror exercise is brewing, this is the second in 2007 Russia and Lu Kongjun in the territory of the Russian joint exercises, and a massive rally. Russia's proposals will exercise set in Russia and central car Ya Bing, Keqiebaerkuli training field, the two sides are consultations.






*The war will start in the East China Sea and end in Tokyo!*

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## sweetgrape

The president of Japan give me feeling that they seems all are idiols in the international relations, especially with its neighborhood. and they deal with these with too much emotion, I am thinking whether their brain polluted by NUKE, USA should be responsable for these!!!
But, for China, such Japan is good, at least, it can give us excuse for revenging.
And, it lose itself, but we can't, await the right time, at that tim, to beast, with beast way, don't leave the danger to offspring!!!

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## chauism

President of Japan???


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## Joe Shearer

chauism said:


> President of Japan???



For these blood-thirsty young armchair warriors, President, Prime Minister, Emperor - what does it matter?

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## Thəorətic Muslim

I think it needs to be said once and for all. 

*Japan is weak.*

It has failed to show any economic growth, keep in mind alot of that is in reflection of it's demographics. But there are other reasons.

1) Japanese banks are ghost vaults. They dont have much to show for their debts. For some reason the govt isnt letting them go bankrupt. 
2) Little domestic market. They aren't like American buying everything.
3) GDP to Debt ratio is ridiculous ~230 2012

etc.

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## EastSea

HongWu said:


> Chinese news source
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The war will start in the East China Sea and end in Tokyo!*



Kid, Russian dont have interest when war ended in Tokyo, I think Moscow dont like also to interfere again to stop Japan take Beijing.

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## sweetgrape

Joe Shearer said:


> For these blood-thirsty young armchair warriors, President, Prime Minister, Emperor - what does it matter?


Yes, my fault.
Yes, I am blood thirsty chinese, just need Japanese blood, I don't like indian and others' blood, I can't expect you understand the Chinese hatred to Japanese, Just like we can't understand that once a united country, but now why Pak and India hate each other heavilly....

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## Shinigami

sweetgrape said:


> Yes, my fault.
> Yes, I am blood thirsty chinese, just need Japanese blood, I don't like indian and others' blood, I can't expect you understand the Chinese hatred to Japanese, Just like we can't understand that once a united country, but now why Pak and India hate each other heavilly....



do all chinese hate the japs? or is it just about 50%


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## terranMarine

Shinigami said:


> do all chinese hate the japs? or is it just about 50%



There are like 1.3 bln Chinese in China alone, not counting the ones in Taiwan and overseas. How the hell can we give a % ?


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## sweetgrape

Shinigami said:


> do all chinese hate the japs? or is it just about 50%


Nothing is absolute, whethe is more or less than 50%? I also don't know but around me, most of don't like Japan, including the one have bought Japan product, and if there are a war with Japan, they will get heavier attack...
And, about Chinese hatred to Japan, make comment before thinking twice, you'd better don't speak for Japanese, you are not the parties... 
For Chinese, Japan did the beast action on China, not only once, and now they still don't introspect their guilty, still make any excuse for it, and they seems not to give up the ambtion to harm Chinese or occupy China, as a chinese, for our offspring, I support root the japanese out, don't talk about the humanity with me for Japanese, In my eyes, Japanese have not been human, they are not qualified, at least to chinese..
We have been neighbor of Japan for more than 2000 years, we know Japan completely, it is strong but brutal race, it has its advantage, but it is too dangerous for other race when it is strong, What I mean is that in war, they don't care about humanity, that's it!!!

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## Shinigami

sweetgrape said:


> Nothing is absolute, whethe is more or less than 50%? I also don't know but around me, most of don't like Japan, including the one have bought Japan product, and if there are a war with Japan, they will get heavier attack...
> And, about Chinese hatred to Japan, make comment before thinking twice, you'd better don't speak for Japanese, you are not the parties...
> For Chinese, Japan did the beast action on China, not only once, and now they still don't introspect their guilty, still make any excuse for it, and they seems not to give up the ambtion to harm Chinese or occupy China, as a chinese, for our offspring, I support root the japanese out, don't talk about the humanity with me for Japanese, In my eyes, Japanese have not been human, they are not qualified, at least to chinese..
> We have been neighbor of Japan for more than 2000 years, we know Japan completely, it is strong but brutal race, it has its advantage, but it is too dangerous for other race when it is strong, What I mean is that in war, they don't care about humanity, that's it!!!



americans screwed them royally in world war 2. isnt that enough for you?


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## Fsjal

Why do people hate the Japanese so much. I think they are friendly. If only we Asians could unite as one.

Back to topic. Wouldn't this exercise cause friction in the region?


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## Soryu

Oh god, you call other is beast and you say you want their blood for thirsty, so you just like them ( in past), and no right to speak about humanity.


sweetgrape said:


> Nothing is absolute, whethe is more or less than 50%? I also don't know but around me, most of don't like Japan, including the one have bought Japan product, and if there are a war with Japan, they will get heavier attack...
> And, about Chinese hatred to Japan, make comment before thinking twice, you'd better don't speak for Japanese, you are not the parties...
> For Chinese, Japan did the beast action on China, not only once, and now they still don't introspect their guilty, still make any excuse for it, and they seems not to give up the ambtion to harm Chinese or occupy China, as a chinese, for our offspring, I support root the japanese out, don't talk about the humanity with me for Japanese, In my eyes, Japanese have not been human, they are not qualified, at least to chinese..
> We have been neighbor of Japan for more than 2000 years, we know Japan completely, it is strong but brutal race, it has its advantage, but it is too dangerous for other race when it is strong, What I mean is that in war, they don't care about humanity, that's it!!!



It's just exercise in and near Japan, so they will observed it.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

There are more deleted posts due to "Off topics no value". 

 to PDF


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## tranquilium

Shinigami said:


> do all chinese hate the japs? or is it just about 50%


The word "hate" is way too strong for the Chinese and Japanese relationship, especially comparing the racial hatred in some other parts of the world. Both Chinese and Japanese can hold a grudge for a long time and the Japanese atrocities in WWII and the year leading up to it have burned some nasty scars. However, the simple fact is that Chinese and Japanese are perfectly capable of sitting down and work together, especially if slamming Koreans are involved.  There is a reason China had the largest number of Japan nationals out of all the nations besides Japan itself.
The Chinese, in general, doesn't really have an intense hatred for anyone, not even the Japanese. It is pretty much a strong dislike, but not something that will get in the way of business.



Fsjal said:


> Why do people hate the Japanese so much. I think they are friendly. If only we Asians could unite as one.
> Back to topic. Wouldn't this exercise cause friction in the region?


Well, they are harmless now because US has spent the last sixty years systemically castrating them. Left unchecked, they can came up some really twisted things, as in, making Hitler and Nazis look positively harmless. 
I think it has something to do with the fact that the Japan islands are rather not exactly the nicest place on earth with its earthquake, tsunami and volcanoes. As a result, the Japanese are always very eager to expand to somewhere else, but aside from the one hundred years period following the opium war, China has always been at least an order of magnitude stronger than Japan, thus the Japanese dream of expansion pretty much remained a pipe dream or at crushed very quickly. And when your dream is crushed so many times and for such a long period of time, the psychological effect can be very devastating. This can be easily observed by the behaviour of Japanese military in the years leading up to WWII. As the Japanese influence expand, the Japanese military because more and more mentally unstable.
On the topic of the military exercise, it is not for Japanese at all. Japan hasn't been a military threat to either Russia or China for decades now. Instead, this military exercise is intended for Americans.

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## Ayush

@Hu Songshan when I look at this thread, I see your hard work. 

It looks as if you trolled the members.


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## Viet

Fsjal said:


> Why do *people *hate the Japanese so much. I think they are friendly. If only we Asians could unite as one.


who are the people? Actually only China and Korea still hold bitter memory of Japan´s wartime crimes.


Fsjal said:


> Back to topic. *Wouldn't this exercise cause friction in the region?*


You play a bit of greenness, don´t you?


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## Fsjal

Viet said:


> who are the people? Actually only China and Korea still hold bitter memory of Japan´s wartime crimes.
> 
> You play a bit of greenness, don´t you?


I do. I'm not a pacifist, but I personally think China's exercise would provoke security.


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## jhungary

If the Chinese and Russian have a joint Exercise in Sea of Japan, then their "target" is not Japan itself, it would be most definitely be United States

And whatever the Chinese do, it did not change a damn thing, either Japan nor US gonna back down that easily, Japan will not abandon Senkakus and US will not abandon Japan. It would take more than Exercise or even War to break the Bond between Japan and United States.

I don't think this is any kind of provokation or whatever in the same sense. It's just an exercise, they can exercise anywhere if they imagine Japanese is their enemy, so, that should not attract more attention than any exercise PLA done in the past and Beyond.


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> who are the people? Actually only China and Korea still hold bitter memory of Japan´s wartime crimes.
> 
> You play a bit of greenness, don´t you?



http://lifestyle.inquirer.net/88037/we-have-not-forgotten-them-nor-shall-we-forget


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## Viet

KirovAirship said:


> http://lifestyle.inquirer.net/88037/we-have-not-forgotten-them-nor-shall-we-forget


You personally seem to have not forgiven nor forgotten.
The Philippines don´t hang on the past, why should you bother?


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## Snomannen

Viet said:


> You personally seem to have not forgiven nor forgotten.
> The Philippines don´t hang on the past, why should you bother?



Did I say I was bother?

By the way, they even built a statue for those Japanese who killed hundreds thousands of Filipinos and invaded the USA in order to attract Japanese tourists.
Lovely people.


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## Zero_wing

KirovAirship said:


> Did I say I do?
> 
> By the way, they even built a statue for those Japanese who killed hundreds thousands of Filipinos and invaded the USA in order to attract Japanese tourists.
> Lovely.



HEY! there is difference between forgotten and hating sir and we choice to forgive we build monuments for our hero's too ever heard of Mt Samat National Shrine with a big cross pays tribute to them so whats with you stupid b#$Ting?


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## Screambowl

PDF record. highest numbr of consecutive posts deleted in this thread

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## Snomannen

Zero_wing said:


> HEY! there is difference between forgotten and hating sir and we choice to forgive we build monuments for our hero's too ever heard of Mt Samat National Shrine with a big cross pays tribute to them so whats with you stupid b#$Ting?



Yup yup yup you even compare your "heroes" with those Japanese "heroes" who killed hundreds thousands of your people and invaded the US.

I wish someday Poland and Jewish people will build a statue for the Großdeutsches Reich, forgotten you say.

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## Rechoice

KirovAirship said:


> Did I say I was bother?
> 
> By the way, they even built a statue for those Japanese who killed hundreds thousands of Filipinos and invaded the USA in order to attract Japanese tourists.
> Lovely people.



attack on Japanese tourist, for what ? You love it ? Don't forget that Philippine authorities said 22 tourists from Hong Kong were ... was killed in a separate attack on a vehicle by gunmen elsewhere in Manila.

Sacked policeman hijacks tourist bus in Philippines


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## gpit

Fsjal said:


> I do. I'm not a pacifist, but I personally think China's exercise would provoke security.




"but I personally think *China's* exercise would provoke security" why do you purposefully omit the word Russia?

Are you selective blind?  Or you hate China so much for some weird "pacifist" reason?

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## Zero_wing

KirovAirship said:


> Yup yup yup you even compare your "heroes" with those Japanese "heroes" who killed hundreds thousands of your people and invaded the US.
> 
> I wish someday Poland and Jewish people will build a statue for the Großdeutsches Reich, forgotten you say.



Really now? and since did the Philippines Took over the US? that's new


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## Viet

Rechoice said:


> *attack *on Japanese tourist, for what ?


bro, KirovAirship says "attract" tourists...
BTW he is now in Germany, that lies far enough from crisis-shaken countries such as N Korea and China.

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## Snomannen

Zero_wing said:


> Really now? and since did the Philippines Took over the US? that's new



Read my post again please.

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## Rechoice

Viet said:


> bro, KirovAirship says "attract" tourists...
> BTW he is now in Germany, that lies far enough from crisis-shaken countries such as N Korea and China.



he he. sorry for my mistake, thks.


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## Zero_wing

KirovAirship said:


> Read my post again please.



No really please cry me a river!


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## Snomannen

Rechoice said:


> he he. sorry for my mistake, thks.



Whom did you give your sorry to?



Zero_wing said:


> No really please cry me a river!



I never said that [the Philippines Took over the US], you said it.

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## Rechoice

KirovAirship said:


> Whom did you give your sorry to?
> 
> 
> 
> .



For whom, my mistake is concerned, you can understand.


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## Zero_wing

KirovAirship said:


> Whom did you give your sorry to?
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that [the Philippines Took over the US], you said it.



Read your stupid post again troll


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## rcrmj

Zero_wing said:


> Read your stupid post again troll



lol, the intellectual capability of a housemaid, cant even read its own writings```lol

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## Snomannen

Zero_wing said:


> Read your stupid post again troll



okok I will read it for you *pet pet*

[By the way, they even built a statue for those *Japanese who killed hundreds thousands of Filipinos and invaded the USA *in order to attract Japanese tourists.
Lovely people. ]

Gee, and I thought my English is bad.



Rechoice said:


> For whom, my mistake is concerned, you can understand.



So you gave your sorry to me, okay I accept it.


----------



## Zero_wing

KirovAirship said:


> okok I will read it for you *pet pet*
> 
> [By the way, they even built a statue for those *Japanese who killed hundreds thousands of Filipinos and invaded the USA *in order to attract Japanese tourists.
> Lovely people. ]
> 
> Gee, and I thought my English is bad.
> .
> 
> So you gave your sorry to me, okay I accept it.




hahahahahahaha see next time double check your post before posting it troll the only thing i know that s close to what you saying is the Kamikaze monument in Clark airbase but that's just small with a banzai garden so what we have thousands of monuments dedicated t Filipinos who fought against the Japanese along with the Americans and for the Americans too heck we have Monuments for everybody here even for the Chinese guerrillas and commie filipinos so what's your point! its not for the Japanese benefit its for everyone so people will no the cost of war i have to admit that war was an American-Japanese war its between America and the Japan we were just drag to it because we were an American Commonwealth with our own Army preparation for Independence but your people were more pathetic then mine one you have your own Country and Army and yet you guys could not do $h%t to the Japanese you needed help and the west help you out pathetic really you people were too bc fighting with your fellow Chinese than the Enemy. But Going back this for education and beside we did not spend too much on it the Japanese Government donated most of the Money unlike our other monuments with the exception of the American cemetery at fort Bonifacio it was all them largest American Cemetery outside the US man that's something


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## Fsjal

Zero_wing said:


> hahahahahahaha see next time double check your post before posting it troll the only thing i know that s close to what you saying is the Kamikaze monument in Clark airbase but that's just small with a banzai garden so what we have thousands of monuments dedicated t Filipinos who fought against the Japanese along with the Americans and for the Americans too heck we have Monuments for everybody here even for the Chinese guerrillas and commie filipinos so what's your point! its not for the Japanese benefit its for everyone so people will no the cost of war i have to admit that war was an American-Japanese war its between America and the Japan we were just drag to it because we were an American Commonwealth with our own Army preparation for Independence but your people were more pathetic then mine one you have your own Country and Army and yet you guys could not do $h%t to the Japanese you needed help and the west help you out pathetic really you people were too bc fighting with your fellow Chinese than the Enemy. But Going back this for education and beside we did not spend too much on it the Japanese Government donated most of the Money unlike our other monuments with the exception of the American cemetery at fort Bonifacio it was all them largest American Cemetery outside the US man that's something



TL;DR

The Chinese did fight bravely. Don't underestimate your enemies.
Also, you make us Filipinoes look bad.



rcrmj said:


> lol, the intellectual capability of a housemaid, cant even read its own writings```lol



Leave him. It's better for him to clean up his own mess.


----------



## Zero_wing

rcrmj said:


> lol, the intellectual capability of a housemaid, cant even read its own writings```lol



So tell how many tips did your mother got last night and which ho house?


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## jhungary

[off topic]

Can we stop the personal bickering for a change? 

If you think Name calling is a must to post here, then i think you rather spend your time in your local supermarket or bank to go over all the crazy stuff with your local gossip. 

*If you don't respect other people, you put shame to yourselve; If you don't respect other culture, you put shame on your own culture. *

All the insult here will only attract infraction and make people think you are stupid. 

If you have things you have to say related to the topic, post it here and share it, i don't think any people here want to know what you think about other people. If this is what you are going to talk about, then you better keep it to yourselve.

[on topic]

I think the Chinese Exercise is the response to this

US and Japan conclude Exercise Iron Fist 2013 - Naval Technology

exercise iron fist

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## Fsjal

jhungary said:


> [off topic]
> 
> Can we stop the personal bickering for a change?
> 
> If you think Name calling is a must to post here, then i think you rather spend your time in your local supermarket or bank to go over all the crazy stuff with your local gossip.
> 
> If you don't respect other people, you put shame to yourselve; If you don't respect other culture, you put shame on your own culture.
> 
> All the insult here will only attract infraction and make people think you are stupid.
> 
> If you have things you have to say related to the topic, post it here and share it, i don't think any people here want to know what you think about other people. If this is what you are going to talk about, then you better keep it to yourselve.
> 
> [on topic]
> 
> I think the Chinese Exercise is the response to this
> 
> US and Japan conclude Exercise Iron Fist 2013 - Naval Technology
> 
> *exercise iron fist*



I love the name of the operation. Reminds me of Tekken.


----------



## Zero_wing

Fsjal said:


> TL;DR
> 
> The Chinese did fight bravely. Don't underestimate your enemies.
> Also, you make us Filipinoes look bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Leave him. It's better for him to clean up his own mess.



Really now i did not know you care so much false flager but please do tell?


----------



## Fsjal

Zero_wing said:


> Really now i did not know you care so much false flager but please do tell?



Sure, traitor. It's hard to tell you all info, but if you did not realize, the Kuomintang and CPC fought against the Japanese invaders, just like the Philippine guerilla soldiers.
---------------
(On Topic)

How many times did China had exercise with Russia?. Is this the second time?


----------



## Snomannen

Zero_wing said:


> hahahahahahaha see next time double check your post before posting it troll the only thing i know that s close to what you saying is the Kamikaze monument in Clark airbase but that's just small with a banzai garden so what we have thousands of monuments dedicated t Filipinos who fought against the Japanese along with the Americans and for the Americans too heck we have Monuments for everybody here even for the Chinese guerrillas and commie filipinos so what's your point! its not for the Japanese benefit its for everyone so people will no the cost of war i have to admit that war was an American-Japanese war its between America and the Japan we were just drag to it because we were an American Commonwealth with our own Army preparation for Independence but your people were more pathetic then mine one you have your own Country and Army and yet you guys could not do $h%t to the Japanese you needed help and the west help you out pathetic really you people were too bc fighting with your fellow Chinese than the Enemy. But Going back this for education and beside we did not spend too much on it the Japanese Government donated most of the Money unlike our other monuments with the exception of the American cemetery at fort Bonifacio it was all them largest American Cemetery outside the US man that's something



Nononono you have to clean your eyes before reading posts.

Yeah just keep saying what you wish. 
Yeah sure will "no" the cost of war. 
Philippines kamikaze statue lures the tourists - Telegraph
Google Translate
Kamikaze Pilot Statue (Mabalacat)
Kamikaze statue lures tourists - World - smh.com.au

Chinese had been fighting against with the Japanese for 8 years, while most of the East South Asia "countries" were defeated by the Imperial Army in a single moment. You had "foreigners" (Your host country) army to protect and support you all the time and you are still all fail. 
Even now you are still killing your people and murdered your neighbors' peaceful citizens.

Who is really the pathetic little maid.

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## Zero_wing

Ya i know my history too one they did it already too late half the country was under Japanese control it was only the Allies made breakthrough at Midway and the other succeeding battles and the atomic bombs that the allies won the war not because of china and besides they fought each other too ever heard of the Chinese Civil war after WW2 wow they were brave only to be evil so please false flager am not so $tupid like you so try not cross me with history.


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## Zero_wing

KirovAirship said:


> Nononono you have to clean your eyes before reading posts.
> 
> Yeah just keep saying what you wish.
> Yeah sure will "no" the cost of war.
> Philippines kamikaze statue lures the tourists - Telegraph
> Google Translate
> Kamikaze Pilot Statue (Mabalacat)
> Kamikaze statue lures tourists - World - smh.com.au



So whats your point troll? 

World War II Memorials, Manila, Philippines
PHILIPPINES WW II HISTORY TOUR
NATION HONORS PHILIPPINE SCOUTS KILLED IN WWII - Asia Pacific Defense Forum in English
Corregidor Island - A World War II Memorial - The U.S. Army's Last Stand in the Pacific
American Battle Monuments Commission
Libingan Ng Mga Bayani: PHILIPPINE WORLD WAR II GUERILLA PYLON


added bonus:

Israel*town honors PHL for helping Jews during World War II | Pinoy Abroad | GMA News Online


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## Zero_wing

Recognized Guerrillas

Ito pa so Again we pathetic please you had an Independent Country who fought each other and we were American Commonwealth with a small Army to defend ourselves with some American Units in the Philippines and we did very well compare to the chinese who was out fought by the Japanese we help delay them for the Allies to regroup and win in the end but the cost was great but again why should i be angry because your Idiots told me so? unlike you the Japanese as been repaying us we have some issues but still they have done great wonders (Airport, Sea ports, Schools, business etc) here that help a lot unlike china supporting Commie rebels and other Rebels groups and corrupt officials that helps them stealing resources (besides the disputed islands) not paying taxes illegal goods smuggled by illegal chinese business and more trash from china. In tondo Chinatown we have a term for them Chinaboys who can't speak Filipino or English trashing the place up with stupid goods and causing road side accidence yearly because they can't drive or follow the rules of the road. So tell me compare to that why should i hate the Japanese who are great help compare to trash who just makes worse? please do tell.


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## Snomannen

Zero_wing said:


> So whats your point troll?
> 
> World War II Memorials, Manila, Philippines
> PHILIPPINES WW II HISTORY TOUR
> NATION HONORS PHILIPPINE SCOUTS KILLED IN WWII - Asia Pacific Defense Forum in English
> Corregidor Island - A World War II Memorial - The U.S. Army's Last Stand in the Pacific
> American Battle Monuments Commission
> Libingan Ng Mga Bayani: PHILIPPINE WORLD WAR II GUERILLA PYLON
> 
> 
> added bonus:
> 
> Israel*town honors PHL for helping Jews during World War II | Pinoy Abroad | GMA News Online



Show me their Nazi flag and Nazi solders statue please?

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## Zero_wing

Please return to topic!


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## Snomannen

Zero_wing said:


> Recognized Guerrillas
> 
> Ito pa so Again we pathetic please you had an Independent Country who fought each other and we were American Commonwealth with a small Army to defend ourselves with some American Units in the Philippines and we did very well compare to the chinese who was out fought by the Japanese we help delay them for the Allies to regroup and win in the end but the cost was great but again why should i be angry because your Idiots told me so? unlike you the Japanese as been repaying us we have some issues but still they have done great wonders (Airport, Sea ports, Schools, business etc) here that help a lot unlike china supporting Commie rebels and other Rebels groups and corrupt officials that helps them stealing resources (besides the disputed islands) not paying taxes illegal goods smuggled by illegal chinese business and more trash from china. In tondo Chinatown we have a term for them Chinaboys who can't speak Filipino or English trashing the place up with stupid goods and causing road side accidence yearly because they can't drive or follow the rules of the road. So tell me compare to that why should i hate the Japanese who are great help compare to trash who just makes worse? please do tell.



Chinese had been frighting with Japanese for 8 years, while you were crashed in a second. 
Chinese defend their resources and land otherwise the Japanese will take the resources of China to expanding their invasion to the world. Based on your logic Chinese are the real one who save the world, not you tiny maid.
Yup yup yup saying this and that are trash illegal business not paying taxes stealing resources blah blah blah, while you people still open your arms and welcome more contribution. What? you people like to be screwed? Don't you insult your own people with your jokes.


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## rcrmj

KirovAirship said:


> Chinese had been frighting with Japanese for 8 years, while you were crashed in a second.
> Chinese defend their resources and land otherwise the Japanese will take the resources of China to expanding their invasion to the world. Based on your logic Chinese are the real one who save the world, not you tiny maid.
> Yup yup yup saying this and that are trash illegal business not paying taxes stealing resources blah blah blah, while you people still open your arms and welcome more contribution. What? you people like to be screwed? Don't you insult your own people with your jokes.



in this maid's logic, when the U.S or european masters 'r@ped' their land or resources he says they are 'legitimate' business, and when Chinese come with fair money and respect and he says we are 'steeling' ```you know his slave mentality is hard to change


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## Zero_wing

rcrmj said:


> in this maid's logic, when the U.S or european masters 'r@ped' their land or resources he says they are 'legitimate' business, and when Chinese come with fair money and respect and he says we are 'steeling' ```you know his slave mentality is hard to change



In your Imperialistic Mind your the masters of the Universe and am Flash Gordan!


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## Narodnaya

ive heard scenarios playd out where u.s. may eventually have to draw down its presence in east asia pacific consderably when resorces are muhc less. will be very grave for japan as russiya and china both have own designs for the islands. two three decades down line willbe very intresting scenario to shape up.


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## DV RULES

The South Korean government has asked Russia and China to help restrain North Korea from making military provocations as tensions increase on the Korean Peninsula over an expected intermediate-range missile launch by Pyongyang, its foreign minister said on Wednesday.

"Through close coordination with China and Russia, the Korean government has been continuing to make efforts to persuade North Korea to change its attitude," Yonhap news agency quoted South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se as saying at a parliamentary committee meeting.

Yun confirmed Pyongyang has moved an intermediate-range Musudan ballistic missile to its east coast and is prepared to launch the missile "at any time from now."

"According to intelligence obtained by our side and the US, the possibility of a missile launch by North Korea is very high," Yun said. The missile, which has a range of 3,500 kilometers (2,200 miles), could hit the US territory of Guam, Yun said.

A "high-level coordination channel with the US is now fully operational" to cope with any provocations from North Korea, Yun said. US Secretary of State John Kerry is expected to arrive in South Korea on Friday for talks with the South Korean foreign minister.

US officials said on Monday they have asked Russia and China for help in getting Pyongyang to back off from its increasingly threatening rhetoric and inflammatory actions which have alarmed its neighbors and prompted the Pentagon to heighten its military readiness.

We have asked China and Russia to use their influence with North Korea to get them to cease this provocative behavior, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said in a press briefing on Monday.

Russian President Vladimir Putin appealed for calm on the Korean Peninsula on Monday at a joint news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Hanover, Germany. I would like to call on everybody to calm down and to sit down at the negotiating table and calmly resolve the issues that have been accumulating there for many years, Putin said.

Putin warned the escalating tensions in the region could lead to a nuclear disaster far worse than the Chernobyl accident in 1986, the world's worst nuclear accident. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Tuesday Moscow will push to normalize the situation on the Korean Peninsula.

North Korea announced on Monday it was suspending operations at the Kaesong industrial complex that it runs jointly with South Korea, and employees more than 53,000 North Korean workers.

Pyongyang advised foreign embassies to consider pulling staff out of Pyongyang by Wednesday, after which it said it cannot guarantee the safety of diplomats in the capital.

The US announced over the weekend it had delayed an intercontinental ballistic missile test in order to avoid further escalation of the conflict, a move that won praise from Putin on Monday.

Tensions have been rising since December, when international sanctions against North Korea were imposed in response to a long-range rocket launch which it claimed was a satellite launch and the UN said was a trial of ballistic missile technology. Pyongyang responded with a nuclear test in February, which was met by more sanctions approved by the United Nations Security Council.

North Korea has threatened pre-emptive nuclear strikes against the US mainland and US military bases in the region. Many analysts think Pyongyang's actions are more related to new leader Kim Jong-un's need to prove his credentials with his own military hardliners and extract concessions from the international community rather than any real desire for a conflict with foreign powers.

South Korea Asks Russia, China to Rein in North Korea > Strategic-Culture.org - Strategic Culture Foundation


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## Karasonmuno

Again, North Korea is no threat...


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## ptldM3

Karasonmuno said:


> Again, North Korea is no threat...



I would disagree, North Korea is Unstable and dangerous, they have shelled South Korean positions, sank South Korean naval vessels, sent commandos into South Korea which resulted in many innocent deaths, ect.

The current fat fvck at the helm seems even more unstable then the previous leaders and it doesn't help that he's a 29 year old puke with delusions of Grandeur. The North Koreans behavior is beyond childish and certainly a threat.


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## Karasonmuno

Perhaps...and perhaps not. But the Koreans know that they have many enemies. I think Jong-un just wants to protect his borders. You know, it's such a shame, honestly...all the Asian nations have been broken and divided.

And for what? Our beliefs. Religion and politics and ideology. Is it worth it, though, in the end...?


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## Bhai Zakir

*China passes to Russia H7N9 virus strain*




China has passed to Russia the H7N9 virus strain, head of the Russian Federal Consumer Rights Protection and Human Health Control Service (Rospotrebnadzor) Gennady Onishchenko said at a press conference at Itar-Tass on Wednesday.

So far the situation with the virus is under control. China has provided us the strain, and we plan to study it from a genetic point of view, to try its immunogenicity and consider it as a candidate strain for a possible vaccine, if this situation develops in the next season, Onishchenko said, adding that so far the World expert community that deals with influenza does not give such data.

There have been 130 infected with the virus in China; according to recent reports, 36 diseased people have died. The Chinese authorities are raising alarm, saying that the countrys economy has already lost 20 million US dollars, Onishchenko said. It was a blow to white meat. Poultry trade has been banned in Beijing and Shanghai. It has caused an economic slump, he said.

According to him, Rospotrebnadzor has been monitoring the situation. Onishchenko said that Russia has tourist itineraries with Chinas bordering areas, and the agency has warned Russians about the situation. Tourists have heard our calls. We have noticed a major decrease in the number of tourists in this area during the May holidays, he said. We will continue to conduct the monitoring. But at the moment we can say that its results are negative, he concluded.


China passes to Russia H7N9 virus strain | Russia & India Report


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## armchairPrivate

What were the Russkies doing with the chickens in China?

You are supposed to do the Chinese chicks, not chickens.
After a few Stoli, they will doing anything, moving or not.


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## SR-91

The U.S. has accused China and Russia of failing to meet minimum standards in fighting human trafficking, ranking them on par with North Korea and Syria. Rights activists welcomed the move, but it could further strain Washingtons touchy relations with the two world powers.

The State Department downgraded China and Russia in rankings on how 188 governments around the world have performed in fighting the flesh trade and other forms of exploitative labour.

The U.S. also downgraded Uzbekistan over its state-sanctioned use of forced labour in the annual cotton harvest.

The rankings are in the departments annual report released on Wednesday.

President Barack Obama now has 90 days to determine whether to apply sanctions against China, Russia, Uzbekistan and 18 other governments given a tier three ranking the lowest the department gives.

The President can block various types of aid, such as arms financing, grants for cultural and educational exchange programs and could withdraw U.S. support for loans from the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.

That appears unlikely in the cases of China, Russia and Uzbekistan, which have strategic importance for Washington.

President Obama is looking to cooperate more closely with emerging Asian superpower China after meeting its leader Xi Jinping last week; he already faces growing friction with Russia over its support for the Assad regime in war-wrecked Syria; and the Central Asian nation of Uzbekistan is important as a transit point as the U.S. pulls out its military from Afghanistan.

Because of a legislative requirement that came into force this year, the Obama administration had to make a judgment whether to downgrade or upgrade the three nations from a watch list they were on for several years.

Three others in the same position  Azerbaijan, Congo and Iraq  were promoted to tier two for progress made in the past year.

Modern-day slavery affects every country in the world, including the United States and every government is responsible for dealing with it and no government is yet doing enough, Secretary of State John Kerry said at the launch of the report, which he conceded pulls no punches.

This report is tough because this is a tough issue and it demands serious attention and thats precisely what we intend to provide.

Activists commended Mr. Kerry for being willing to downgrade powerful nations.

Frankly, we expected a number of these countries to be upgraded for geopolitical reasons, said David Abramowitz, director of the U.S.-based Alliance to End Slavery and Trafficking. The Trafficking in Persons report is only effective when its honest.

John Sifton of Human Rights Watch said it remains to be seen whether the White House will execute sanctions. He urged the administration to do so unless the governments in question commit to fight trafficking.

China responded that it has made unremitting efforts that have seen a decrease in human trafficking in the country, and in April, its governing State Council issued an plan in accordance with international conventions and Chinese laws, aiming for a long-term solution to the problem.

Geng Shuang, the Chinese Embassy spokesman in Washington, said the U.S. report disregards our efforts in combating human trafficking and makes irresponsible judgment on other countries internal policy and practice. He called for the U.S. to foster a more favourable environment for international anti-trafficking efforts.

The Russian Embassy did not respond to an email seeking comment.

The State Department also put Malaysia and Thailand, a U.S. treaty ally, on notice that they would be downgraded next year to tier three unless they improve anti-trafficking efforts. Mr. Abramowitz said it showed that those Southeast Asian nations cant count on their political relationship with the U.S. to avoid censure.

Luis CdeBaca, U.S. Ambassador-at-large for human trafficking issues, voiced concern over Thai authorities treatment of Myanmar migrants, including minority Muslims fleeing a wave of sectarian violence at home. He also referred to very grave problems with Malaysias treatment of trafficking victims, who are held in prison-camp type conditions before deportation.

The Trafficking in Persons report is one of several annual assessments issued by the State Department on human rights-related topics, but its unusual in that it ranks nations, which can ruffle diplomatic feathers. It is based on the actions governments take, rather than the scale of the problem in their country.

The United States is also scrutinised in the report. It is among 30 countries on tier one judged to meet minimum standards of combating human trafficking.

According to Mr. CdeBaca, the report is intended to prod governments to act and strengthen the hand of civil society organizations in fighting trafficking and forced labour. He said the U.S. seeks to help nations improve their ranking through technical assistance and law enforcement cooperation.

The report criticized Chinas government for perpetuating trafficking through its use of forced labour in more than 300 state-run prison camps, and its forcible deportation of North Korean trafficking victims, who may face the death penalty on their return home. Girls from Tibet are reportedly trafficked to other parts of China for domestic servitude and forced marriage, it said.

Republican Representative Chris Smith, an arch critic of Beijing and an author of anti-trafficking legislation, welcomed Chinas downgrade as recognition that it has become the sex and labour trafficking capital of the world.

Mr. CdeBaca was more conciliatory. He acknowledged Chinas recent national action plan to combat trafficking, and noted reports China plans to end the practice of re-education through labour. He indicated that if those plans lead to results, it would count in Chinas favour in next years report.

On Russia, he said the main concern was authorities failure to provide care for victims of human trafficking.

An estimated one million people in the country are exposed to exploitative labour conditions, including migrants from Europe, Central Asia, and Asia, according to the report. Among them are between 10,000 and 15,000 North Korean workers employed at logging camps in Russias far-east, under an arrangement between the two governments. The workers reportedly have only two days of rest per year and face punishments if they fail to meet production targets.

There are now 25 nations sitting on the departments watch list that could be downgraded to tier three next year. That relegation can be waived for two years, if governments demonstrate they have a plan to address human trafficking and commit resources to implement it.

Of the 25, six countries Thailand, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Barbados, Chad and the Maldives are entering their second year of being waived. Each faces an automatic downgrade in 2014 unless they demonstrate progress.


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## Nan Yang

So women and children from *SINGAPORE* are trafficked to China for commercial
sexual exploitation and forced labor.

Who wrote this report needs to be shot.



> China is a source, transit, and destination country for men,
> women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex
> trafficking. Women and children from neighboring Asian
> countries, including Burma, Vietnam, Laos, Singapore,
> Mongolia, and the Democratic People&#8217;s Republic of Korea
> (DPRK), as well as from Russia, Europe, Africa, and the
> Americas, are reportedly trafficked to China for commercial
> sexual exploitation and forced labor.


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## cirr

June 21, 2013 12:10 pm

By Courtney Weaver and Neil Buckley in St Petersburg

Rosneft has signed a deal to supply China with $270bn worth of oil over the next 25 years, as Russia looks to boost ties with the worlds largest energy consumer.

*In a separate agreement, the state-owned China National Petroleum Corporation has also agreed to take a 20 per cent stake in Novateks $20bn liquefied natural gas project on Russias remote Yamal peninsula*

As part of the stake, CNPC will receive 3m metric tonnes of LNG per year under a long-term contract  a move that will end Gazproms longtime monopoly on gas exports.

The deals mark at least a partial pivot towards Asia as Russia seeks to exploit Chinas ever-growing appetite for energy, amid stagnant demand from Europe and attempts by European countries to reduce reliance on Russia.

Supplies to China were already running ahead of what oilfields in Russia's east Siberia region could deliver, said Ildar Davletshin, oil and gas expert at Renaissance Capital, the Moscow investment bank. 

Mr Davletshin said 20 per cent of the volumes supplied to China were coming from west Siberia, oil that would otherwise have travelled west. 

Russia currently sends 15m tonnes of oil a year to China through the East Siberia Pacific Ocean pipeline that opened in 2009, a fraction of its 518m-tonne annual oil output. This year the total capacity of the ESPO  to China and the Pacific coast terminal at Kozmino  is scheduled to be upgraded from 30m tonnes a year to 50m tonnes.

Friday's agreement represents a doubling of volumes to China. Igor Sechin, Rosneft chairman, said the state-controlled group would supply 365m tonnes of oil to China over 25 years starting next month. 

He added that the deal with China represented one of 30 agreements that Rosneft would sign at the St Petersburg International Economic Forum, the state-organised annual investor conference.

Ivan Menshikov, general manager of Taas Yuryakh Neftegazdobycha, an independent oil company developing fields in the region, said the agreements with China would provide an incentive to develop East Siberia, seen as the next frontier for Russia's oil industry. Taas Yuryakh could wind up participating in Friday's export deal if it concludes a deal to market, through Rosneft, the 6m tonnes per year it is aiming to produce.

East Siberias newer fields are planned to eventually supplant ageing fields in West Siberia which have been the backbone of Russia's oil industry for 40 years. 

Rosneft, which has close to a 40 per cent share of Russias oil output, also sealed a $7bn agreement to supply 8m tonnes of oil to the Czech Republic together with PKN Orlen through to 2016, as well as a deal with Trafigura. The Russian group also signed a preliminary agreement to supply liquefied natural gas to Vitol, the largest oil trader.

Rosneft said it would supply Trafigura with 10m tonnes of crude oil and petroleum products over the next five years, with a $1.5bn pre-payment from Trafigura.

Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, said on Thursday during a meeting with Zhang Gaoli, Chinas deputy premier, that Rosneft had prepared an unprecedented contract to deliver hundreds of millions of tonnes of crude to China.

Mr Putin put the value of the deal at $60bn. Vedomosti, the FTs Russian sister paper, reported on Friday that the $60bn sum might refer to an advance payment to Rosneft secured against future oil deliveries.

Novateks agreement was expected to be signed later on Friday, according to Gennady Timchenko, the tycoon who owns a majority of Novatek together with Leonid Mikhelson, the chief executive. 

Today, we are going to sign an agreement for delivering [LNG] to China, and I think this will send a signal to the Europeans about how to operate in this sphere, Mr Timchenko told a meeting at the St Petersburg forum.

Novatek has expanded rapidly in recent years to become Russias second-biggest gas producer after Gazprom, which to date has had a monopoly on gas exports.

Gazprom is also working on finalising a longstanding plan to send gas via pipelines to China, which it hopes to complete this year after several years of on-off talks. A memorandum of understanding was signed after Xi Jinping, the Chinese president, met Mr Putin in Moscow in March.

Additional reporting by Charles Clover 

Russia and China agree $270bn oil deal - FT.com

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## shuttler

Good move!

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## ChineseTiger1986

Russia has helped us a lot on this deal, thus we should buy a couple of Su-35 as a gratitude.


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## cirr

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia has helped us a lot on this deal, thus we should buy a couple of Su-35 as a gratitude.



It would be a good idea purchaing several dozens of Su-35s for the boys&#65292;considering that we still have hundreds of J-7s and J-8s in active service&#12290;


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## rott

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia has helped us a lot on this deal, thus we should buy a couple of Su-35 as a gratitude.



This deal is helping the Russians. Instead of buying SU-35, China went in for oil.


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## That Guy

Ironic, as the US has no moral standing to be making such ridiculous acts.


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## MeshFree

Who cares? Keep barking


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## Globenim

Just meaningless verbal retaliation for harbouring the innocent political refugees from the brutal and oppressive U.S. regime and denying compliance to this rogue states requests, sending them into their death or at least brutal torture, like other vassal rogue states in our close neighbourhood would have done.


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## rott

BEIJING: China has announced it will hold its biggest ever naval drill with Russia starting in the Sea of Japan on Friday. The move will strengthen Russia's military relations with China, which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian arms along with India.

"This marks our navy's single biggest deployment of military force in a China-foreign joint exercise," the defence ministry said. Its navy will send four destroyers, two guided missile frigates, and a support ship for the "Joint Sea-2013 " exercises, which run through July 12.

The move is bound to affect the ongoing dispute between China and Japan over the Diaoyu islands in the East China Sea, sources said.

The Chinese announcement comes soon after Tokyo revealed plans to hold a joint military exercise with the US. 

China-Russia navy drill with eye on Japan? - The Times of India

*The move will strengthen Russia's military relations with China, which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian arms along with India.
*

The last time I checked, it was India which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian hardware, where as China has reduced it's dependance on Russian arms.

*The move will strengthen Russia's military relations with China, which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian arms along with India.
*

The last time I checked, it was India which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian hardware, where as China has reduced it's dependance on Russian arms.

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## rott

*The move will strengthen Russia's military relations with China, which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian arms along with India.
*

The last time I checked, it was India which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian hardware, where as China has reduced it's dependance on Russian arms.

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## xuxu1457

"Joint Sea-2013 " exercises from July 5-12, China 4 destroyers, 2 Frigates and 1 supply ship&#65307; Russia 12 warships and 2 subs
7 China navy warships left Qingdao to Russia at 1st July

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## Fsjal

rott said:


> *The move will strengthen Russia's military relations with China, which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian arms along with India.
> *
> 
> The last time I checked, it was India which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian hardware, where as China has reduced it's dependance on Russian arms.



Well, the source is "Times of India"

What do you expect from those guys?

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## rott

Fsjal said:


> Well, the source is "Times of India"
> 
> What do you expect from those guys?



Precisely! What is wrong with the Indian Media? Can some Indian members enlighten us on the Indian BS?

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## cnleio

China 7x warships in Russia Vladivostok, it's so far the largest China Navy Fleet oversea.


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## cnleio

rott said:


> *The move will strengthen Russia's military relations with China, which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian arms along with India.
> *
> 
> The last time I checked, it was India which has emerged as a major buyer of Russian hardware, where as China has reduced it's dependance on Russian arms.



I think that 2x 051C class still using Russia SA-N-6 anti-aircraft system, well later main DDG 052C & 052D class really reduced Russian arms.

China 7x warships in Russia Vladivostok, it's so far the largest China Navy Fleet oversea.

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## rcrmj

cnleio said:


> I think that 2x 051C class still using Russia SA-N-6 anti-aircraft system, *well later main DDG 052C & 052D class really reduced Russian arms.*
> China 7x warships in Russia Vladivostok, it's so far the largest China Navy Fleet oversea.



there are no Russian stuff on 052C/D, those bests are with powerful AESA, VLS, advanced C4SI and sophisticated CIWs

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## Viet

rcrmj said:


> there are no Russian stuff on 052C/D, those bests are with powerful AESA, VLS, advanced C4SI and sophisticated CIWs


nice ships, not bad. Will you sell such toys to your Vietnamese friend?


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## cnleio

Viet said:


> nice ships, not bad. Will you sell such toys to your Vietnamese friend?



052C DDG cost 0.9 billion U.S dollar , 052D DDG cost over 1 billion U.S dollar (price from internet)

052C DDG&#65306;






052D DDG&#65306;





















new 052C and 052D DDG building

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## rcrmj

Viet said:


> nice ships, not bad. Will you sell such toys to your Vietnamese friend?



no for the time being, these 052C/D are equipped most advanced systems in China probably among the world best when its new AESA radar, C4SI systems and air defence systems are concerned...

I do not think China will sell these before the maturity of 12,000+ ton destroyer 055

even its open to the market 1 billion price tag keeps most desirable countries out of the shelf


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## VelocuR

Beautiful showcases by Chinese warships and muscles.


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## HongWu

rott said:


> Precisely! What is wrong with the Indian Media? Can some Indian members enlighten us on the Indian BS?


India is an extremely unstable "country" with poverty, scams, communal violence and sexual predators. India wasn't even a country until the British cobbled together many princely states into their empire. The only way to keep the country together is aggression against its neighbors, pump up jingoism and brainwash the masses into believe India is/will be a "shupa-powa." That's why India has territorial disputes with every single neighbor, their media is constantly hyping up war and the Indian government makes laughable claims about India being a military shupa-powa.

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## Viet

rcrmj said:


> no for the time being, these 052C/D are equipped most advanced systems in China probably among the world best when its new AESA radar, C4SI systems and air defence systems are concerned...
> 
> I do not think China will sell these before the maturity of 12,000+ ton destroyer 055
> even its open to the market 1 billion price tag keeps most desirable countries out of the shelf


I think if the Sino-VN relationship continues to improve, then we will see arms purchases from your brother. At the moment, sure, $1bn is too much, but in 5 years it can come true.

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## chentianhua

China and India are ancient civilizations,
We have a long history and culture,
Although there are some conflicts between the two countries,
But the pursuit of peace is greater than differences.

Many Qing drama on television,
But they are said HAN language.
Do not you think there are more important things to do


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## yusheng




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## yusheng



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## BDforever

Nice ships 
@HongWu can you tell me what is the price of Type056 corvette price ?


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## yusheng



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## cnleio

BDforever said:


> can you tell me what is the price of Type056 corvette price ?


056 class corvette cost 0.11-0.12 billion U.S dollar, Bangladesh Navy have orded 2x 056 class corvettes.
(information of 2x 056 for Bangladesh from internet)










And news said Bangladesh also orded 2x frigates (maybe export version of 053 class)


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## cnleio

China White Fleet in Vladivostok

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## xhw1986

Russia and China have studied the end of the Cold War and how the US ultimately defeated the USSR by bankrupting it.

According to Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi and Secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation Nikolai Platonovich Patrushev, 2013 was “a year of harvest” for Sino-Russian relations. It was also a year of new lows for the countries’ relations with the West and from the look of it, things could get worse in 2014.

Much has been said in recent years about how two difficult wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and a sagging economy cut the U.S. at the knees and created space for China. During this same period, China was enjoying double-digit economic growth and a relatively stable security environment, emerging as a hegemon in Asia. As the U.S. was struggling to extricate itself from, and was pouring billions of dollars into, unwinnable wars, Beijing was reaping the benefits of its “peaceful rise” by building its economy, resolving longstanding territorial disputes with neighbors, consolidating ties with smaller powers within the region, and neutralizing Taiwan as a potential source of armed conflict.

Thus, when China began flexing its muscles in the East and South China Seas, Beijing was not cowed by the U.S. “pivot,” or “rebalancing,” to Asia. For one thing, it was apparent that Washington’s renewed interest in East Asia would not — at least not in the medium term — be accompanied by a willingness to allocate sufficient capital and resources to make the pivot a credible counter to China. As Beijing and many U.S. defense experts saw it, the rebalancing was more a wish list and academic exercise than an actual strategy, let alone one that was anywhere near implementation. That is the reason why Beijing suffered little consequences when it threatened to alter the status quo within the region, such as with the November 23 declaration of its extended Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea. (There is every reason to believe that a credible U.S. pivot to Asia would have deterred Beijing, which ostensibly does not seek war at this point in time, from embarking on such adventurism.)

Now by working together, China and Russia could make sure that the U.S. rebalance to Asia, if it ever materializes, remains a diluted, and therefore ineffective, affair. They could do so by enlarging the spatial scope of U.S. security responsibilities and further stretching its military’s diminished resources. A few years ago, Bobo Lo, an associate fellow at Chatham House, proposed the term “axis of convenience” to describe the relationship between China and Russia. Five years after the publication of his book of the same title, the relationship has never been more convenient. For the time being at least, Beijing and Moscow appear to have set their own territorial disputes aside, and by cooperating at the strategic level they are hoping to force the U.S. out of Asia altogether.

A substantial amount of attention has been paid to China’s Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) strategy, with the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) serving as one of its principal components, and to which we can now perhaps add the ADIZ. Less, however, has been said of Russia’s ongoing efforts to keep the U.S. out of its backyard. It is interesting to note that two weeks after China’s ADIZ announcement, Russian President Vladimir Putin, meeting top military officers, stated that Russia would bolster its presence in the potentially resource-rich Arctic. Earlier that month and a little more than a week after China sprung its ADIZ surprise, the Russian navy announced that the Arctic would be its priority in 2014. As _The Diplomat_ reported earlier this month, Russia is currently deploying aerospace defense and electronic warfare units to the area, and is now building a comprehensive early-warning missile radar system near Vorkuta in the extreme north, among other developments.

The growing presence of the Russian military in the Arctic — which stands to turn into a region of strategic importance — will surely prompt a countervailing response from the U.S. (it has already indicated plans to increase its foothold in the region). However, doing so — let’s call it a “rebalancing to the Arctic” — would further strain the U.S. military budget and thereby take resources away from the “pivot” to Asia.

Simultaneously, the Russian military confirmed on December 16 that it had deployed nuclear-capable Iskander-M tactical ballistic missile systems, with a range of approximately 400km, into its Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad and along its border with NATO members Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The news followed reports the previous weekend that satellite imagery had unveiled the presence of 10 such launchers in the exclave. Although President Putin denied the deployment on December 19, Russia has shown every indication that it seeks to expand its operations in its Western Military District, which aside from Kaliningrad also includes much of the European part of Russia.

There are questions over whether Washington can afford to substantially increase defense spending without bankrupting the country. It will find itself unable to counter both a resurgent China in East _and_ Southeast Asia, where it has been speculated that China could eventually announce a second ADIZ, and a more muscular Russian presence in the Arctic and near the Baltic states. Either the U.S. will focus on one, or it will attempt to meet all contingencies, but do so with less-than optimal resources. With Washington feeling it has little choice but to choose the latter course of action, China and Russia will both benefit by confronting a diffuse and distracted opponent or succeed in breaking the U.S.’s back by forcing it to overspend — unless other countries like Japan and NATO members agree to greatly expand their defense spending, which appears unlikely. Furthermore, there are also doubts about whether the Japanese would agree to constitutional changes of the sort that would allow for military burden sharing of the type envisaged here.

Whether the U.S. has a “right” to be an actor in what Russia and China consider as their backyard is a question we’d better seek to answer elsewhere. But what is clear is that a weakened U.S., whose ability to meet the challenge of China’s “rise” is already very much in doubt, now seems on the brink of facing a multi-pronged challenge from a Sino-Russian axis that, if it is to be countered effectively, will require a number of “pivots.” Whether Russia’s economy can sustain a military expansion on the scale necessary to prompt a U.S. realignment is questionable, though the increasingly authoritarian nature of its leadership means that Moscow will be far less vulnerable than Washington to public discontent with huge defense spending in times of austerity.

Both Russia and China have closely studied the end of the Cold War and how the U.S. ultimately defeated the U.S.S.R. by bankrupting it. Two decades later, it looks like Moscow and Beijing are trying to return the favor.

Can a China-Russia Axis Bankrupt the US? | The Diplomat

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## kankan326

Without China's support, US would bankrupt faster. 
US' financial problem was created by Americans themselves. It's Wall Street that should be blamed. Not China

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## Chinese-Dragon

Russia should never be underestimated. They are still the USA's biggest nightmare, and will soon re-emerge as a superpower once again.

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## Srinivas

There is no Russia - China axis


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## sincity

Srinivas said:


> There is no Russia - China axis




There always India-Russia axis of evil?


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## Srinivas

sincity said:


> There always India-Russia axis



There are border disputes between India - china, china-russia.

There are concerns in both India and Russia regarding Chinese military build up.

Each country can act as a counter force to each other just like in 1971 just in case of chinese adventures.

Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.

Yes, there is India-Russia axis and then there is Russia - China economic cooperation particularly in defense sector, I mean Chinese copy the Russian defense toys and also take help of Russian scientists.

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## sincity

Srinivas said:


> There are border disputes between India - china, china-russia.
> 
> There are concerns in both India and Russia regarding Chinese military build up.
> 
> Each country can act as a counter force to each other just like in 1971 just in case of chinese adventures.
> 
> Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.
> 
> Yes, there is India-Russia axis and then there is Russia - China economic cooperation particularly in defense sector, I mean Chinese copy the Russian defense toys and also take help of Russian scientists.





I don't know much about international politic, just weird to know Bush label Russia as 1 of the member of axis of evil, and you stated Russia isn't one of the axis member.

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## Genesis

Srinivas said:


> There are border disputes between India - china, china-russia.
> 
> There are concerns in both India and Russia regarding Chinese military build up.
> 
> Each country can act as a counter force to each other just like in 1971 just in case of chinese adventures.
> 
> Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.
> 
> Yes, there is India-Russia axis and then there is Russia - China economic cooperation particularly in defense sector, I mean Chinese copy the Russian defense toys and also take help of Russian scientists.


 
you are right there is no China Russia. Heavy weights fight heavy weights, featherweight fight featherweights.

China is superior to Russia. Russia may have more per capita now, but it's kinda stuck there, and Russia is by no means a first world country like her West Europe cousins. We will catch them soon enough in per capita and by then Russia will be nothing more than third rate.


Russia plus India is still no threat. Your two GDPs put together is not even half of ours. 

As to your last comment, US uses Soviet defectors so what, bottom line, we are richer than you are, and it's not close.


Now on to this topic, US won't fall, this US failing crap is stupid, China rises doesn't mean US falling. I much prefer a world with more checks and balances, a single super power is bad news no matter who it is.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Srinivas said:


> Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.



So why did Russia co-found the SCO with China, and leave India out in the cold regarding Central Asia?

You're living in a world of delusions.

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## kankan326

Srinivas said:


> There are border disputes between India - china, china-russia.
> 
> There are concerns in both India and Russia regarding Chinese military build up.
> 
> Each country can act as a counter force to each other just like in 1971 just in case of chinese adventures.
> 
> Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.
> 
> Yes, there is India-Russia axis and then there is Russia - China economic cooperation particularly in defense sector, I mean Chinese copy the Russian defense toys and also take help of Russian scientists.


Neighbors' neighbors are friends. Simple and true


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## BJP*

Chinese-Dragon said:


> So why did Russia co-found the SCO with China, and leave India out in the cold regarding Central Asia?
> 
> You're living in a world of delusions.



There are many thing which Russia has done with India rather than China, there is no comparision.


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## Victory

Looking by the recent activities, USA is more concerned about China right now...Russia is slowly slipping down


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## Daniel808

Srinivas said:


> There are border disputes between India - china, china-russia.
> 
> There are concerns in both India and Russia regarding Chinese military build up.
> 
> Each country can act as a counter force to each other just like in 1971 just in case of chinese adventures.
> 
> Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.
> 
> Yes, there is India-Russia axis and then there is Russia - China economic cooperation particularly in defense sector, I mean Chinese copy the Russian defense toys and also take help of Russian scientists.



I think you are a Delusionist 


Why Vladimir Putin only Invite Xi Jinping to Drink Vodka Together in His Birthday when G-20 Summit in Bali, Indonesia Yesterday?  Why not Indian? 

I think it has a deep meaning in China-Russia Relationship.


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## Anubis

Russia is a military and strategic threat to the US...but I don't think they can affect US economy as much as China can!


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## xunzi

Anytime an Indian opens his open to talk about geopolitical event, history or territorial dispute, it pissed me off for known reason.


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## Srinivas

Daniel808 said:


> I think you are a Delusionist
> 
> 
> Why Vladimir Putin only Invite Xi Jinping to Drink Vodka Together in His Birthday when G-20 Summit in Bali, Indonesia Yesterday?  Why not Indian?
> 
> I think it has a deep meaning in China-Russia Relationship.



Hitler also invited Russian premiers before Russian invasion of Nazis.

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## terranMarine

Srinivas said:


> There are border disputes between India - china, china-russia.
> 
> There are concerns in both India and Russia regarding Chinese military build up.
> 
> Each country can act as a counter force to each other just like in 1971 just in case of chinese adventures.
> 
> Russia is more than happy to work with India in its former soviet union countries than with China.
> 
> Yes, there is India-Russia axis and then there is Russia - China economic cooperation particularly in defense sector, I mean Chinese copy the Russian defense toys and also take help of Russian scientists.



Border disputes with Russia has already been solved in case you didn't know. As Putin has said China and Russia share a strategic relationship unlike any other country. 

Sino-Soviet border conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1991 Sino-Soviet Border Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## eazzy

Lol Russia sells some toys to India to make money and suddenly they are an "axis"...


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## hari sud

There is an easy solution. Stop buying from China. US, place your merchandise orders elsewhere in the world. That would bankrupt China.

At the moment Chinese buy as much US Treasury bonds as much US sends FDI to China. Take that FDI away from the Chinese and place it elsewhere.

With that said and done, Chinese would be bankrupted. Twenty million Chinese would be unemployed. A new revolution would be at hand.

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## Levina

Srinivas said:


> There is no Russia - China axis


Russia has been trying very hard to mend its relationships in asia,including with Isreal.So this should not be a surprise.
But at the same time Russia is playing on all sides as it expands ties with both China and many of the countries along its periphery, including Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Vietnam and India. The moves appear to be aimed at giving Russia the ability to hedge against Chinese influence.
The two countries have now agreed to jointly build an oil refinery in China and continue *nuclear cooperation(*dont know why it rings a toc sin's ding inside my head).
The most recent example of this expansion of ties was Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev’s trip to Beijing to meet with Chinese Premier Li Keqiang as part of an annual meeting between the two heads of state.

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## jhungary

It is extremely stupid to say if China join hand with Russia to bankrupt the US

Set aside if they can actually do it, in the next 50 years, if US is bankrupted, that would have meant the world 68% reserve currency becoming toilet paper overnight, if Chinese bankrupt the US, then they will bankrupt themselves in the process.

In reality, if Chinese and Russian up the game in Asia, US will simply move from an active protector to a passive supporter (ie by selling and arming the allies in SE Asia, US will make sure that before Russia and China up the game, SE Asia will become untenurable first. American is really not as dumb as many would think

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## Iggy

If US is bankrupt, who is going to buy all the products around the world? Like it or not.. That is the biggest market in the world.. Once US is bankrupt, rest of the nations will follow..


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## beijingwalker

*WFB's Bill Gertz: We're in the middle of a hypersonic arms race with Russia and China




*


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## beijingwalker

STAR WARS: China beat US to testing 9,127mph HYPERSONIC missile carrier | Latest News | Latest Breaking News | Daily Star. Simply The Best 7 Days A Week


> Russian deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin said in June last year: “Neither current nor future American missile defense systems will be able to prevent that missile from hitting a target dead on.
> 
> "We are experiencing a revolution in military science."


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## beijingwalker

*China and Russia may hold joint naval drill in the Mediterranean*
Published time: January 19, 2014 03:09
Get short URL


> Russia and China have agreed to conduct a joint naval drill in the Mediterranean Sea, a Russian media report cites the Defense Ministry. The countries’ fleets are currently involved in an intl operation to escort the Syrian chemical weapons stockpile.
> 
> The Defense Ministry said on Sunday that group of Russian naval officers deployed onboard a heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Peter the Great" visited Chinese frigate Yancheng.
> _
> “On board the Chinese patrol ship, Russian sailors discussed with their foreign counterparts the possibility of joint tactical exercises in the Mediterranean Sea. Under the agreement, such exercises can be carried out in the near future in an effort to improve the level of operational compatibility between Russian and Chinese warships during joint operations in the eastern Mediterranean,”_ the statement from the Ministry of Defense said.
> 
> The main aim of the joint naval exercise would be to increase the level of operational cooperation between the two navies designed to tackle terrorist threats and improve joint rescue operations at sea, the Ministry explained.
> 
> On January 7, both counties escorted the first consignment of Syrian chemical weapons materials that has left the country on a Danish ship. This became the first practical interaction between the Russian and the Chinese navies.
> 
> The Chinese Department of Defense noted that Captain Pyshklov, commanding officer of the Mediterranean Combat Group of the Russian Navy, praised the performance of the Yancheng during the escort operation, while his counterpart, Li Pengcheng spoke highly of the important role the Russian Navy played in the escort operation for the ships transporting Syria’s chemical weapons.
> 
> In July, Russia and China held a three-day joint naval military exercise. The “Naval Interaction-2013" in the open waters off the Port of Vladivostok became China’s largest overseas military exercises in terms of the number of troops deployed outside its territorial waters. Seven Chinese warships including four destroyers, two frigates and one comprehensive supply ship took part in the war games.
> 
> Both Russian and Chinese ships have polished their skills in joint air-defense and maritime replenishment. They have also practiced tackling submarine threats and tested their skills in joint escort and in rescuing a hijacked ship while shooting maritime targets.
> 
> Russia and China have regularly held joint naval drills since 2005 within the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. However, “Naval Interaction-2013" was only the second exercise conducted outside the SCO: the first was held in April 2012.
> 
> In recent years, the Chinese navy has participated in a series of joint exercises in the Pacific and Indian oceans, while Chinese ground forces have taken part in land war games organized by the SCO.

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## Vinayak Tiwari

why not in south china sea ?


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## beijingwalker

China has never gone that far to do military exercise,that's very strange.


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## Raphael

Vinayak Tiwari said:


> why not in south china sea ?



probably because the world's attention is fixated on the powder-keg that is the east mediterranean sea, what with the syria conflict and everything. the regional actors like syria, israel, lebanon, and turkey have shown to be completely incapable of managing their conflict, so great powers will have to step in and show the babies how to behave.

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## beijingwalker

Must be Russians' idea


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## Wholegrain

beijingwalker said:


> Must be Russians' idea



Russia is trying to drag China into the Syria mess and try to make it seem as though its not isolated on the issue. China should put its foot down and suggest moving the location.


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## faithfulguy

Vinayak Tiwari said:


> why not in south china sea ?



And do you think India would be invited?


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## vostok

Wholegrain said:


> Russia is trying to drag China into the Syria mess and try to make it seem as though its not isolated on the issue. China should put its foot down and suggest moving the location.


You do not understand why the West needs Syria? After Syria is Iran. And after Iran - Russia and China. Better now help Syria to kill cannibals than after a while fight with those cannibals on the street of your own city.

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## Baadshah

Wholegrain said:


> Russia is trying to drag China into the Syria mess and try to make it seem as though its not isolated on the issue. China should put its foot down and suggest moving the location.


Most of the weapons used by FSA are Chinese made.


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## Wholegrain

Baadshah said:


> Most of the weapons used by FSA are Chinese made.



China didn't sell weapons to either side in Syria, but to third parties like Sudan who then lost the weapons, its their business what they do with it. What matters if Sudan pays the cash it owes for the weapons...

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## beijingwalker

Maybe that's the favor return for this early one



> November 2013 China And Russia War exercises Japanese water


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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> China has never gone that far to do military exercise,that's very strange.


it is not wise for China to take such provocative move. It is obvious that Russia is keen on a confrontation with the NATO alliance.



Vinayak Tiwari said:


> why not in south china sea ?


Russia is on our side. If any they will do military exercise with Vietnam.


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## Wholegrain

beijingwalker said:


> Maybe that's the favor return for this early one



The sea of Japan is still of militart and strategic importance to *Russia*. The mediterranean holds zero strategic and military purpose for China.


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## bolo

Wholegrain said:


> Russia is trying to drag China into the Syria mess and try to make it seem as though its not isolated on the issue. China should put its foot down and suggest moving the location.


 
Not really. I think China should show more interest as the west is focus on Syria->Iran->N. Korea, eventually China & Russia. Stop them while at stage one.

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## nalan

beijingwalker said:


> China has never gone that far to do military exercise,that's very strange.


China is a political power, we want to break the unipolar world.


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## Vinayak Tiwari

Wholegrain said:


> The sea of Japan is still of militart and strategic importance to *Russia*. The mediterranean holds zero strategic and military purpose for China.


if it's of 0 importance den why even dey r goin dere ?


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## lcloo

They are holding exercise because after the first escort of Syrian chemical weapons sent for disposal, they are free of any missions in the Mediteranean Sea while waiting for the second batch of Syrian chemical weapons to be escort to Italy. So why not make good use of free time to hold some training?


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## BCCItheGreat

It seems china is afraid of India and Japan relations lol
And wanted to prove a point here that they got Russia on their side...


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## lcloo

BCCItheGreat said:


> It seems china is afraid of India and Japan relations lol
> And wanted to prove a point here that they got Russia on their side...



You are wrong, the joint naval training was proposed by Russian, it was the Russians who want Chinese on their side in this particular area of the world.


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## sicsheep

it's mutual, Chinese propose exercise in the Pacific, Russian propose exercise in the Mediterranean..


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## bolo

BCCItheGreat said:


> It seems china is afraid of India and Japan relations lol
> And wanted to prove a point here that they got Russia on their side...


It's not China who's afraid, but some anonymous loser named Wanglokan. India military is very weak so China does not care.


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## Viet

sicsheep said:


> it's mutual, Chinese propose exercise in the Pacific, Russian propose exercise in the Mediterranean..


Mediterranean sea is a NATO major domain. If you and Russia hold military excercice in the region, you can calculate with the arrival of warships from America, Germany, England, Italy and France. we´ll all have fun watching.

_Standing NATO Maritime Group 1_


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## lcloo

Viet said:


> Mediterranean sea is a NATO major domain. If you and Russia hold military excercice in the region, you can calculate with the arrival of warships from America, Germany, England, Italy and France. we´ll all have fun watching.
> 
> _Standing NATO Maritime Group 1_



LOL!, they already carried out the exercise, so where are the war ships you are talking about? So you had any fun watching?

Fact is the Russian and Chinese ships will join with NATO warships and freighters in their next Mediteranean mission.


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## romia

Viet said:


> it is not wise for China to take such provocative move. It is obvious that Russia is keen on a confrontation with the NATO alliance.
> 
> 
> Russia is on our side. If any they will do military exercise with Vietnam.


1,Its obvious that NATO is keen on a confraontation with the Russia,You got that backwards
2，China decide to join is wise and stratigic,ur vietnamese never know.
3,Russian never on any side,they will always on money side and stand for their own interest.Stand for vietnamese?lol,idiot

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## sicsheep

Viet said:


> Mediterranean sea is a NATO major domain. If you and Russia hold military excercice in the region, you can calculate with the arrival of warships from America, Germany, England, Italy and France. we´ll all have fun watching.



Please have fun watching, it's not like you have a blue water navy....all Vietnam can do is watch


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## tranquilium

Vinayak Tiwari said:


> why not in south china sea ?



The purpose of this military exercise is to support Russia's interest in Middle East.


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## lcloo

lcloo said:


> LOL!, they already carried out the exercise, so where are the war ships you are talking about? So you had any fun watching?
> 
> Fact is the Russian and Chinese ships will join with NATO warships and freighters in their next Mediteranean mission.



Russian, Chinese, Norway and Denmark warships completed convoy mission for 3rd batch of Syrian chemical weapon on Feb 10th.


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## cirr

Published time: February 12, 2014 11:55

RIA Novosti / Evgeny Biyatov

Big deal, China, Economy, Energy, Russian economy






China and Russia are to build *the world’s biggest thermal power plant with an 8 gigawatt capacity*. The Erkovetskaya TPP project in Russia’s Amur region could cost up to *$24 billion*, and will export energy to China where domestic demand is high.

The plant will be developed by Eastern Energy Company, a subsidiary of Inter RAO, the Russian state-run power utility, Vedomosti newspaper reported.

The plant will supply 30-50 kilowatts per year, which is about 5 percent of the Russian Federation's total current production, General director of Eastern Energy Company, Mikhail Shashmurin told Vedomosti.

It will cost between $7.5 and $12 billion, according to Natalia Porokhova, an energy analyst at Gazprombank. Talking to another Russian newspaper Kommersant, Sergey Beiden from Otkrytie Financial Corporation estimated the cost to be between $12.5 - $24 billion.

At first a 5 gigawatt project was in the works, but at the request of the State Grid Corporation of China (SGCC), the joint venture will look at _“additional exploration,”_ Shashmurin said. To deliver the energy to Beijing, where demand is strongest, an estimated 2,000 km of transmission lines will need to be installed.

A framework agreement was signed in 2013 between the two state-owned companies which explored the possibility of building power plants in Russia’s Far East with the goal of exporting 40-50 billion hours to China. The final decision will come from China’ Committee of Development and Reform, and will include a 5-year draft economic plan. The Chinese want to be shareholders, and according to Shashmurin, could own up to 49 percent in the project.

The first long-term power contract with China was inked in 2012, and stipulated 100 billion kilowatts of supply over 25 years to the Heilongjiang province. In 2013, Inter RAO delivered 3.39 billion kilowatts to China, Shashmurin said.

Inter RAO halted exports to China in February 2007 after Russia increased duties on Chinese sales. Trade resumed in 2009.

The Russian Far Eastern Amur region was devastated by floods last summer, with nearly 100,000 people were affected, and thousands of homes submerged. There was great concern that a heat power plant in Khabarovsk would be submerged by flood water. When floods hit in 2007, the reservoir of the Zeya hydroelectric plant nearly overflowed.

Russia’s biggest natural gas producer, Gazprom is negotiating gas delivery with CNPC. 

China and Russia to build world’s biggest thermal power plant — RT Business

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## senheiser

*Can a China-Russia Axis Bankrupt the US?*
Russia and China have studied the end of the Cold War and how the US ultimately defeated the USSR by bankrupting it.





According to Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi and Secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation Nikolai Platonovich Patrushev, 2013 was“a year of harvest” for Sino-Russian relations. It was also a year of new lows for the countries’ relations with the West — and from the look of it, things could get worse in 2014.

Much has been said in recent years about how two difficult wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and a sagging economy cut the U.S. at the knees and created space for China. During this same period, China was enjoying double-digit economic growth and a relatively stable security environment, emerging as a hegemon in Asia. As the U.S. was struggling to extricate itself from, and was pouring billions of dollars into, unwinnable wars, Beijing was reaping the benefits of its “peaceful rise” by building its economy, resolving longstanding territorial disputes with neighbors, consolidating ties with smaller powers within the region, and neutralizing Taiwan as a potential source of armed conflict.

Thus, when China began flexing its muscles in the East and South China Seas, Beijing was not cowed by the U.S. “pivot,” or “rebalancing,” to Asia. For one thing, it was apparent that Washington’s renewed interest in East Asia would not — at least not in the medium term — be accompanied by a willingness to allocate sufficient capital and resources to make the pivot a credible counter to China. As Beijing and many U.S. defense experts saw it, the rebalancing was more a wish list and academic exercise than an actual strategy, let alone one that was anywhere near implementation. That is the reason why Beijing suffered little consequences when it threatened to alter the status quo within the region, such as with the November 23 declaration of its extended Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea. (There is every reason to believe that a credible U.S. pivot to Asia would have deterred Beijing, which ostensibly does not seek war at this point in time, from embarking on such adventurism.)

Now by working together, China and Russia could make sure that the U.S. rebalance to Asia, if it ever materializes, remains a diluted, and therefore ineffective, affair. They could do so by enlarging the spatial scope of U.S. security responsibilities and further stretching its military’s diminished resources. A few years ago, Bobo Lo, an associate fellow at Chatham House, proposed the term “axis of convenience” to describe the relationship between China and Russia. Five years after the publication of his book of the same title, the relationship has never been more convenient. For the time being at least, Beijing and Moscow appear to have set their own territorial disputes aside, and by cooperating at the strategic level they are hoping to force the U.S. out of Asia altogether.

A substantial amount of attention has been paid to China’s Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) strategy, with the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) serving as one of its principal components, and to which we can now perhaps add the ADIZ. Less, however, has been said of Russia’s ongoing efforts to keep the U.S. out of its backyard. It is interesting to note that two weeks after China’s ADIZ announcement, Russian President Vladimir Putin, meeting top military officers, stated that Russia would bolster its presence in the potentially resource-rich Arctic. Earlier that month and a little more than a week after China sprung its ADIZ surprise, the Russian navyannounced that the Arctic would be its priority in 2014. As _The Diplomat_ reported earlier this month, Russia is currently deploying aerospace defense and electronic warfare units to the area, and is now building a comprehensive early-warning missile radar system near Vorkuta in the extreme north, among other developments.

The growing presence of the Russian military in the Arctic — which stands to turn into a region of strategic importance — will surely prompt a countervailing response from the U.S. (it has already indicated plans to increase its foothold in the region). However, doing so — let’s call it a “rebalancing to the Arctic” — would further strain the U.S. military budget and thereby take resources away from the “pivot” to Asia.

Simultaneously, the Russian military confirmed on December 16 that it had deployed nuclear-capable Iskander-M tactical ballistic missile systems, with a range of approximately 400km, into its Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad and along its border with NATO members Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The news followed reports the previous weekend that satellite imagery had unveiled the presence of 10 such launchers in the exclave. Although President Putin denied the deployment on December 19, Russia has shown every indication that it seeks to expand its operations in its Western Military District, which aside from Kaliningrad also includes much of the European part of Russia.

There are questions over whether Washington can afford to substantially increase defense spending without bankrupting the country. It will find itself unable to counter both a resurgent China in East _and_ Southeast Asia, where it has been speculated that China could eventually announce a second ADIZ, and a more muscular Russian presence in the Arctic and near the Baltic states. Either the U.S. will focus on one, or it will attempt to meet all contingencies, but do so with less-than optimal resources. With Washington feeling it has little choice but to choose the latter course of action, China and Russia will both benefit by confronting a diffuse and distracted opponent or succeed in breaking the U.S.’s back by forcing it to overspend — unless other countries like Japan and NATO members agree to greatly expand their defense spending, which appears unlikely. Furthermore, there are also doubts about whether the Japanese would agree to constitutional changes of the sort that would allow for military burden sharing of the type envisaged here.

Whether the U.S. has a “right” to be an actor in what Russia and China consider as their backyard is a question we’d better seek to answer elsewhere. But what is clear is that a weakened U.S., whose ability to meet the challenge of China’s “rise” is already very much in doubt, now seems on the brink of facing a multi-pronged challenge from a Sino-Russian axis that, if it is to be countered effectively, will require a number of “pivots.” Whether Russia’s economy can sustain a military expansion on the scale necessary to prompt a U.S. realignment is questionable, though the increasingly authoritarian nature of its leadership means that Moscow will be far less vulnerable than Washington to public discontent with huge defense spending in times of austerity.

Both Russia and China have closely studied the end of the Cold War and how the U.S. ultimately defeated the U.S.S.R. by bankrupting it. Two decades later, it looks like Moscow and Beijing are trying to return the favor.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Even Russia alone is capable of taking on the entire West, and winning too. 

Look at what happened with *Georgia*, look at what happened with *Syria*, look at what is happening now with *Ukraine*. Russia is winning all these conflicts with ease.

I think we have a lot to learn from Russia. We are still in the "building up" phase, it will probably take a few more years to a decade before China becomes much more assertive in the diplomatic and military fields.

Right now most of our relative power is economic, rather than military or diplomatic. And we'll use it as much as we can, but we have to be patient for the rest.

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## Raphael

If US goes bankrupt, we won't get our treasury returns back. This is the type of frustrating loser country we're dealing with.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Even Russia alone is capable of taking on the entire West, and winning too.
> 
> Look at what happened with Georgia, look at what happened with Syria, look at what is happening now with Ukraine. Russia is winning all these conflicts with ease.



Russia is amazingly efficient with her national power. She can hold America to a diplomatic standstill, and often even triumph, despite having far less economic capability. But I think in a hot war on neutral territory (e.g. in Central Europe), the US would ultimately win. Industrial productivity matters a lot, and USA's is higher.

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## senheiser

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Even Russia alone is capable of taking on the entire West, and winning too.
> 
> Look at what happened with Georgia, look at what happened with Syria, look at what is happening now with Ukraine. Russia is winning all these conflicts with ease.
> 
> I think we have a lot to learn from Russia. We are still in the "building up" phase, it will probably take a few more years to a decade before China becomes much more assertive in the diplomatic and military fields.
> 
> Right now most of our relative power is economic, rather than military or diplomatic. And we'll use it as much as we can, but we have to be patient for the rest.


no china is also great military

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## ChineseTiger1986

The dollar needs to go.

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## Hiptullha

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Look at what happened with Georgia, look at what happened with Syria, look at what is happening now with Ukraine. Russia is winning all these conflicts with ease.



Georgia was a tiny sardine compared to Russia.
Russia is not winning Syria and neither is it winning Ukraine. 
Syria will end with a stalemate, while the entire world is supporting the Ukrainian rebels.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> I think we have a lot to learn from Russia.



Like what? Russia is cracking, my friend. Putin and his Oligarchies will not rule any longer. The people are going to wake and realize that they live in a corrupt and oppressive regime. If you want to learn something from Russia, learn that their ruling strategy won't work any longer.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Hiptullha said:


> Russia is not winning Syria and neither is it winning Ukraine.



Russia already won on Syria, they prevented a Western-led invasion, and got Syria to disarm their chemical weapons.

That was the key reason as to why Putin was named the "most powerful person in the world" just recently. He outmanoeuvred the entire West.

As for the Ukraine, no country on Earth could stop Russia if they wanted to stage an intervention. Look at John Kerry's weak-*** statements, they're obviously not interested in taking on Russia there either.

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## Hiptullha

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Russia already won on Syria, they prevented a Western-led invasion, and got Syria to disarm their chemical weapons.


A victory?
The nation is in shambles and the Russian-supported regime is desperately clinging onto power. Saudi Arabia is readily supplying arms and money. Syria is a goner.
When the last Shia fortress in the ME is gone, you'll be completely cut off.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> As for the Ukraine, no country on Earth could stop Russia if they wanted to stage an intervention. Look at John Kerry's weak-*** statements, they're obviously not interested in taking on Russia there either.



How are we sure Russia will intervene? You're basing everything on bluffs, warnings, and hollow threats.
If Russia does intervene, I'll be happy though. The world will finally see one of the superpowers get its hands filthy. Once intervention takes place, the US will also begin taking direct participation in the world affairs instead of hiding in the shadows as it previously did.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Hiptullha said:


> A victory?
> The nation is in shambles and the Russian-supported regime is desperately clinging onto power. Saudi Arabia is readily supplying arms and money. Syria is a goner.
> When the last Shia fortress in the ME is gone, you'll be completely cut off.
> 
> How are we sure Russia will intervene? You're basing everything on bluffs, warnings, and hollow threats.
> If Russia does intervene, I'll be happy though. The world will finally see one of the superpowers get its hands filthy. Once intervention takes place, the US will also begin taking direct participation in the world affairs instead of hiding in the shadows as it previously did.



I'm basing it on facts and reality.

Nobody could stop Russia IF they wanted to stage an intervention in Ukraine. Same as Georgia.

Russia of course, being the responsible country it is, has already said they are not seeking to annex Ukraine. They are preparing for the worst case scenario, in which relations between Ukraine and the Crimean peninsula break down.



Hiptullha said:


> Once intervention takes place, the US will also begin taking direct participation in the world affairs instead of hiding in the shadows as it previously did.



What? You do realize that America staged three separate invasions of three separate countries in the last decade ALONE?

Do you call invading Iraq over *non-existent WMD's* to be "hiding in the shadows"?

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## Hiptullha

Chinese-Dragon said:


> being the responsible country it is,


Supporting a corrupt puppet regime is SO responsible.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Do you call invading Iraq over non-existent WMD's to be "hiding in the shadows"?



They've been messing around in the ME.
Never was Iraq's WMDs or Afghanistan's terrorists part of their priorities. Russia and China have always been their main cause of concern and their biggest rivals. What we've seen in the past decade was a series of proxy wars with the US being the grand puppeteer, trying to lessen the influence of the Russian-supported Iranians who had made "strongholds" in the region.
Now, if the Russians do invade, the US will stop with these proxy wars. They will stop fumbling around in the ME, and will go for the target, which is Russia.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Hiptullha said:


> Now, if the Russians do invade, the US will stop with these proxy wars. They will stop fumbling around in the ME, and will go for the target, which is Russia.



I pity any state who underestimates Russia. So many people have made this mistake in the past, even the unstoppable Nazi War Engine was crushed by Russia.

America knows this, which is why they backed down over Georgia, they backed down over Syria, and they have pretty much already backed down over any attempt to challenge Russia in the Crimean peninsula.

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## Hiptullha

Chinese-Dragon said:


> unstoppable Nazi War Engine was crushed by Russia.


You have a bit of a superiority complex, don't you?
Hitler lost because Russia was simply so massive.




Chinese-Dragon said:


> which is why they backed down over Georgia,


Handling a war on the backyard of the Russians would have proved a failure. Nothing to do with "feer of ze Mighty Russkis!"



Chinese-Dragon said:


> they backed down over Syria


 
They're still blatantly supporting the rebel cause right in front of the Russians. Why are the Russian so helpless when it comes to making the US stop this?



Chinese-Dragon said:


> and they have pretty much already backed down over any attempt to challenge Russia in the Crimean peninsula.







Chinese-Dragon said:


> and they have pretty much already backed down over any attempt to challenge Russia in the Crimean peninsula.



Like I said, managing a war right under the Russian Sphere of Influence would be very difficult and most likely end up with a failure.


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## Fukuoka

Of course yes. Need to grow some balls and stop playing their games of embargos and dollar (they can print)

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## Chinese-Dragon

Hiptullha said:


> Like I said, managing a war right under the Russian Sphere of Influence would be very difficult and most likely end up with a failure.



Well there you go.

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## Fattyacids

Raphael said:


> If US goes bankrupt, we won't get our treasury returns back. This is the type of frustrating loser country we're dealing with.





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The dollar needs to go.




As long as USD remains the world reserve currency, the Fed can print the country out of trouble. To break this USD conundrum, US status as the world's largest economy, world's largest capital market, and to a lesser extent, world's the strongest military power, needs to be toppled, so the financial market will re-assess US treasury bill suitably as the risk-free benchmark. Global trade will then ditch the USD completely. That's the only way USD will go.

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## Audio

Chinese-Dragon said:


> backed down over any attempt to challenge Russia in the Crimean peninsula.



lol, Crimea is a small price to pay to reorient the remaining 90% of Ukraine towards the west.


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## Fukuoka

Actually China is full of dollars printed at will, so they will have a lot of troubles if the dollar collapse


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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> As long as USD remains the world reserve currency



ironically, it the emerging markets that are the most exposed to fed printing and their central bankers are urging the US to not slow the printing because it could have detrimental effects back home.


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## Fukuoka

Audio said:


> lol, Crimea is a small price to pay to reorient the remaining 90% of Ukraine towards the west.


They can go to the west and they will see
JEWS always sell things that people will regret:divisions, promises of freedom

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## Fattyacids

Audio said:


> ironically, it the emerging markets that are the most exposed to fed printing and their central bankers are urging the US to not slow the printing because it could have detrimental effects back home.



Exactly why I said the Fed can print the country out of trouble. 
Unless USD ceased to be the reserve currency.

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## bolo

Fattyacids said:


> As long as USD remains the world reserve currency, the Fed can print the country out of trouble. To break this USD conundrum, US status as the world's largest economy, world's largest capital market, and to a lesser extent, world's the strongest military power, needs to be toppled, so the financial market will re-assess US treasury bill suitably as the risk-free benchmark. Global trade will then ditch the USD completely. That's the only way USD will go.


 Finally someone who understands that the only way to topple US economically is through military intervention. He who is the strongest dictate whose picture will be on the dollar

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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> Exactly why I said the Fed can print the country out of trouble.
> Unless USD ceased to be the reserve currency.



Well, in any case, G20 finance ministers were in Sydney this past week. Emerging FM's were told that they must clean their own house first and then start asking for solidarity from the developed countries. Solidarity in the form of not stopping printing. 

This 85 bill $ a month is the best thing that happened to Asia. It covers all the blunders you made with overinvestment, overcapacity, corruption and makes the ball roll forward. That's why your FM's and bank governors have their panties in a twist over US intent to stop printing.


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## Fattyacids

bolo said:


> Finally someone who understands that the only way to topple US economically is through military intervention. He who is the strongest dictate whose picture will be on the dollar



Military is often overlooked. But all three factors have to happen.

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## Fattyacids

Audio said:


> Well, in any case, G20 finance ministers were in Sydney this past week. Emerging FM's were told that they must clean their own house first and then start asking for solidarity from the developed countries. Solidarity in the form of not stopping printing.
> 
> This 85 bill $ a month is the best thing that happened to Asia. It covers all the blunders you made with overinvestment, overcapacity, corruption and makes the ball roll forward. That's why your FM's and bank governors have their panties in a twist over US intent to stop printing.



$85 billion a month was to bail out the US itself, not to bankroll the emerging countries. Obviously you do not know the dynamic relationship between USD, carry trade, and asset prices. These central bankers very well knew, but they weren't too ready to bolster their current account when the times were good. Of course they have to put their own house in order now. Yellen is answerable to the US congress, no one else. All she can is to ensure a slow and gradual pace of tapering.

No, my FM and bank governor were having a party in Sydney drinking Moutai, smoking cigars. We have $4 trillion in reserves.

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## Beidou2020

The key to toppling this despotic American empire is toppling the US dollar's reserve currency status.
The dollar allows the US to have money far greater than what their normal economy can generate. 

For the dollar to be toppled you need the largest economy, largest trading nation, largest consumer market, largest capital market and a very powerful military especially a Navy that can go anywhere in the world.

Without money you can't maintain a powerful military. Without the dollar, the US won't have money to fund their large welfare program and their large military budget at the same time.

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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> $85 billion a month was to bail out the US itself, not to bankroll the emerging countries. Obviously you do not know the dynamic relationship between USD, carry trade, and asset prices. These central bankers very well knew, but they weren't too ready to bolster their current account when the times were good. Of course they have to put their own house in order now. Yellen is answerable to the US congress, no one else. All she can is to ensure a slow and gradual pace of tapering.
> 
> No, my FM and bank governor were having a party in Sydney drinking Moutai, smoking cigars. We have $4 trillion in reserves.





> (Reuters) - The U.S. Federal Reserve must consider when and how fast it unwinds its economic stimulus to avoid harming emerging markets, although the impact on China could be more limited compared with some other countries, senior Chinese officials said on Tuesday.
> 
> The warning by China's Vice Finance Minister Zhu Guangyao and central bank Vice Governor Yi Gang came as economies from Brazil to Indonesia struggle to cope with capital flight as U.S. interest rates rise ahead of an expected tapering off in the Fed's bond buying program that unleashed liquidity across the world.



Ahead of G20, China urges caution in Fed policy tapering| Reuters



> SYDNEY — China has led developing markets in hitting back at the United States as India also kept up pressure on the Federal Reserve to consider the spillover effects of tapering its bond-buying programme.



China, India hit back on US criticism, policy | TODAYonline

But i agree that currency reserves help. That's why Chinese officials say the impact on China could be more limited.


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## Fattyacids

Audio said:


> But i agree that currency reserves help. That's why Chinese officials say the impact on China could be more limited.



Currency doesn't just help, it is the only solution! When Fed scale back its QE program, assets prices and currencies plunge. How well your currency can withstand the onslaught depends on how much your central bank has in reserves.

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## Viet

I have two simple questions to our friends from China and Russia:

what comes after US bankruptcy?
what benefits will Vietnam get if America goes bankrupt?

any idea?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> I have two simple questions to our friends from China and Russia:
> 
> what comes after US bankruptcy?
> what benefits will Vietnam get if America goes bankrupt?
> 
> any idea?



No one gives a fck about Vietnam's benefit.

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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> I have two simple questions to our friends from China and Russia:
> 
> what comes after US bankruptcy?
> what benefits will Vietnam get if America goes bankrupt?
> 
> any idea?



LOL....

They won't go bankruptcy. Even if so, you will still get nothing, really.

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## Beidou2020

Viet said:


> I have two simple questions to our friends from China and Russia:
> 
> what comes after US bankruptcy?
> what benefits will Vietnam get if America goes bankrupt?
> 
> any idea?



No one gives a flying **** what benefits Vietnam gets.

Vietnam's destiny is to be part of greater China, it will be achieved gradually.

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## shuttler

Raphael said:


> If US goes bankrupt, we won't get our treasury returns back. This is the type of frustrating loser country we're dealing with



I dont think usa can get away with our T-bills and bonds with a massive default
They cant walk away from their liabilites unscathed
We can deal with the asset side of their balance sheet or other assets asap

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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> LOL....
> 
> They won't go bankruptcy. Even if so, you will still get nothing, really.


actually Vietnam will suffer if the US goes bankrupt. We will lose them as the biggest importer for our goods and a counterbalance to China in the region.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> No one gives a fck about Vietnam's benefit.


ha ha ha...that is exactly what I expect from you and other delusional Chinese.

I mentioned VN just as an example to figure out what others can expect if America collapses.


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## shuttler

Viet said:


> I have two simple questions to our friends from China and Russia:
> what comes after US bankruptcy?



Look at the situation of Detroit will give you an answer somewhat
I never know you are behaving like our friends all along



> what benefits will Vietnam get if America goes bankrupt?
> any idea?



The immediate benefit is vietnamese will not be forced down on them with american ideologies at the expense of their own culture
vietnam is not a direct competitor of america on anything so the impact of collapse of the usa on vietnam is small

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## Beidou2020

Viet said:


> actually Vietnam will suffer if the US goes bankrupt. We will lose them as the biggest importer for our goods and a counterbalance to China in the region.
> 
> 
> ha ha ha...that is exactly what I expect from you and other delusional Chinese.
> 
> I mentioned VN just as an example to figure out what others can expect if America collapses.



It's only a matter of time before we become Vietnam's biggest export market and import source thus China becoming Vietnam's biggest trading partner. We will also be the largest direct investor in Vietnam.

Vietnam don't need America as a counterbalance to China. China is the protector of Asian countries. We have never destroyed Vietnam, America has not only destroyed Vietnam but dropped Agent Orange too.

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## Johny D

Both China and Russia making huge economic surplus in dollars and today they are proud of their dollar reserves… neither country has the capability nor the credibility to challenge the US, may its political or military..only insane can compare today’s US with erstwhile Soviet Union (at the end of the cold war) …US is still the most powerful, innovative and strong country….Moreover, very few countries would accept China or Russia as substitute to the US....Even if it happens in dream, China and Russia will fight with each other to establish their supremacy..the way US and SU did after WW2…

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## Viet

shuttler said:


> Look at the situation of Detroit will give you an answer somewhat


Detroit default can repeat elsewhere in other cities or even to states in America. Puerto Rico could go burst next. No, I just wanted to hear from you if you have any idea what would happen to other nations after America goes bankruptcy?


shuttler said:


> I never know you are behaving like our friends all along


is reciprocal.


shuttler said:


> The immediate benefit is vietnamese will not be forced down on them with american ideologies at the expense of their own culture
> vietnam is not a direct competitor of america on anything so the impact of collapse of the usa on vietnam is small


I cited Vietnam just as example. When you say you don´t give a fck on Vietnam, I guess you won´t give a fck on

- the Philippines
- Malaysia or ASEAN
- Korea
- and so on


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## Viet

Beidou2020 said:


> No one gives a flying **** what benefits Vietnam gets.
> 
> Vietnam's destiny is to be part of greater China, it will be achieved gradually.


he he he ...you have a dream. 

Come on, China is big in every aspects, you don´t need Vietnam. The 90m Vietnamese will not much increase the actual size of with 1,4 bn Chinese.


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## shuttler

Viet said:


> Detroit default can repeat elsewhere in other cities or even to states in America. Puerto Rico could go burst next. No, I just wanted to hear from you if you have any idea what would happen to other nations after America goes bankruptcy?



That is the question you asked about what will happen if usa goes broke, isnt it?
The thing is Detroit has a lot less cards to finesse than the Fed but the Fed also carries a lot more obligations
The immediate hits are on the american RnD spending on many fronts; their cut of subsidies for overseas espionage and terrorists groups, their overseas military bases will be closed down, their quality of lives will go down, unemployment will go up, unemployment as well as other subsidies will be cut. That will give good reasons for their own social unrest - they'll be eating their own medicines, they will not have money to pay their internet warriors ..and many more



> is reciprocal.



you are not vietnamese



> I cited Vietnam just a example. When you say you don´t give a fck on Vietnam, I guess you will give a fck on
> - the Philippines
> - Malaysia or ASEAN
> - Korea
> - and so on



I didnt use "fck"
I only speak from what I know of the impact of vietnam on USA or vice versa when america as a country goes broke

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## BJP*

Beidou2020 said:


> Spoken like a true subordinate. No wonder the British colonised you for 300 years.


Stick to the Topic. Do not drag India or its history in between. 

ON topic : What do you think world needs YOU to bankrupt US?
Come out of the fools paradise, they are themselves desperate to bankrupt themselves. Why you guys are eager to take credit of every thing in the world. You guys are in fact supporting US economy.


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## Viet

shuttler said:


> you are not vietnamese


are you sure?



Beidou2020 said:


> We need your women. This is a fact (due to one child policy).


...you are funny. Vietnam birth rate is declining. Vietnam should have 100m now, but just reached 90m last year....Chinese men can look for alternatives in Thailand, Philippines or Indonesia.


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## shuttler

Viet said:


> are you sure?



Swear to your God, you tell me! (Karma mode on! )



BJP* said:


> Stick to the Topic. Do not drag India or its history in between.
> 
> ON topic : What do you think world needs YOU to bankrupt US?
> Come out of the fools paradise, they are themselves desperate to bankrupt themselves. Why you guys are eager to take credit of every thing in the world. You guys are in fact supporting US economy.



the world is far too complicated for you people to understand!

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## Fukuoka

Viet said:


> I have two simple questions to our friends from China and Russia:
> 
> what comes after US bankruptcy?
> what benefits will Vietnam get if America goes bankrupt?
> 
> any idea?


Actually they can print as many dollars as they want and buy everything
It means you work for free for them

That's why the USA owned by the zionists are so strong and Israel live doing nothing


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## Mighty Caty

US economy currently contributing about 1/4 the World economy

If you put US and EU together, there would be Half the world economy,for those who don't know, it's 32 trillions economy

On the other hand China + Russia only top 11 trillions as of now. If China and Russia trying to bankrupt US economy, they would not be able to do it at this point

Now even as projected China will take over US in 2020 where China supposedly have 20 trillions vs US 19

The situation is the same as US is still to big of a share for anyone to bankrupt, the only way US economy can be bankrupted with minimal effect is for China and Russia to drag EU along with it, EU is another 19 trillion economy by the time of 2020

But it is highly unlikely for EU to go down against the American and run with Chinese/Russian camp


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## cnleio

The *China-Russia Axis *hear BAD, it's called *China-Russia Alliance *!!!

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## shuttler

She will bankrupt usa if she is elected in 2016


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> ha ha ha...that is exactly what I expect from you and other delusional Chinese.
> 
> I mentioned VN just as an example to figure out what others can expect if America collapses.



Who is the delusional one here? And do you think that Earth will stop moving because of Vietnam? LMAO


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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> Currency doesn't just help, it is the only solution!



I disagree. A strong and resilient economy proped up by anti speculative investment legislature is the solution. You throw money at it only when any effects of excessive, speculative investment manage to spill through any possible loop holes in the said legislature.


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## Fattyacids

Audio said:


> I disagree. A strong and resilient economy proped up by anti speculative investment legislature is the solution. You throw money at it only when any effects of excessive, speculative investment manage to spill through any possible loop holes in the said legislature.



How well do you gauge a resilient economy? A strong current account, comes back to your currency reserves.

How well can financial legislature reduce speculation? You can have a team of Nobel Laureates to draft your legislation, but no legislation can stop market forces. Unless you're a 100% self sufficient country that doesn't trade. All international and goods are priced in USD!

You're quite clueless.

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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> How well do you gauge a strong and resilient economy? A strong current account, comes back to your currency reserves.
> 
> How well can financial legislature reduce speculation? You can have a team of Nobel Laureates to draft your legislation, but no legislation that stop market forces. Unless you're 100% self sufficient country that doesn't trade. All international and goods are priced in USD!
> 
> You're quite clueless.



lol, most financial legislature that is passed nowadays in the EU and US is specifically designed to curb speculative investment banking. If i'm not mistaken, even China is passing such laws as we speak.

China makes fresh bid to curb shadow banking, contain debt risk| Reuters

If you're not aware what is happening, you have really no place to call anyone clueless.


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## shuttler

Fattyacids said:


> How well do you gauge a strong and resilient economy? A strong current account, comes back to your currency reserves.
> 
> How well can financial legislature reduce speculation? You can have a team of Nobel Laureates to draft your legislation, but no legislation can stop market forces. Unless you're a 100% self sufficient country that doesn't trade. All international and goods are priced in USD!
> 
> You're quite clueless.



He is clueless
I remember arguing with him hopelessly about significance of time-value of money on the evaluation or buying a electric or gas-engine vehicle in which he didnt have a clue!
But he likes to argue even he's so ignorant on so many things

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## Audio

shuttler said:


> He is clueless
> I remember arguing with him hopelessly about significance of time-value of money on the evaluation or buying a electric or gas-engine vehicle in which he didnt have a clue!
> But he likes to argue even he's so ignorant on so many things



lol, you lost every debate. Shittler, who are you kidding!?


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## Fattyacids

Audio said:


> lol, im clueless but most financial legislature that is passed nowadays in the EU and US is specifically designed to curb speculative investment banking. If i'm not mistaken, even China is passing such laws as we speak.
> 
> If you're not aware what is happening, you have really no place to call anyone clueless.



Don't confuse capital market regulation with central bank monetary policy and international trade. Go Learn the difference between the two, you will know your place. It's ok to be clueless.

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## shuttler

Audio said:


> lol, you lost every debate. Shittler, who are you kidding!?



dont lie indian
nasty name calling wont help your intelligence
If you care to look back on every debate with anyone including your ignorant self I have won all of them

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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> Don't confuse capital market regulation with central bank monetary policy and international trade. Go Learn the difference between the two, you will know your place.



I can see how it is all connected. You don't. Where is my place then?



shuttler said:


> dont lie indian
> nasty name calling wont help your intelligence
> If you care to look back on every debate with anyone including your ignorant self I have won all of them



Sources please.


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## shuttler

Audio said:


> lol, you lost every debate. Shittler, who are you kidding!?



dont try to go low further than what you are standing so lowly now by nasty name calling
what is time value of money?
what is fiscal policy?
what is monetary policy?



Audio said:


> Sources please.



I think you have go back to check on every posting that I have made to find out

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## Audio

shuttler said:


> dont try to go low further to what you are standing so lowly by name calling



Sorry, i must have misstyped. 

Now, sources! You have to provide the proof since you took a position.


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## shuttler

Audio said:


> Sorry, i must have misstyped.
> 
> Now, sources!



what source? I have told you how to find them 
what mistyping - it is pure lie on a clear wilful intent of name calling for the third time (2 on this thread 1 on a previous thread)

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## Fattyacids

Audio said:


> I can see how it is all connected. You don't. Where is my place then?[



If you can see, you wouldn't have said legislature would work. 1) monetary policy cannot be legislated. 2) central banks are independent. 

Your place is in the classroom.

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## shuttler

My questions in posting # 64 are simple economic theories that anyone knowing the fundamentals can answer them right away
@Audio too late to google them for answers now!

And stop being nasty!

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## Audio

Fattyacids said:


> If you can see, you wouldn't have said legislature would work. 1) monetary policy cannot be legislated. 2) central banks are independent.
> 
> Your place is in the classroom.



Sure, in the meantime i'll keep on reading how what i'm saying is happening. And you can keep you theorycraft.



shuttler said:


> what source? I have told you how to find them
> what mistyping - it is pure lie on a clear wilful intent of name calling for the third time (2 on this thread 1 on a previous thread)



You made a claim, so the weight of presenting the evidence to support the claim is on you.

PS: im not nasty, it was a typo. U is next to I, easily happens, hope it doesnt happen again in the future, i write so fast.


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## shuttler

Audio said:


> You made a claim, so the weight of presenting the evidence to support the claim is on you.


Bull shit it was you who initiated all these by saying I lost every debate and I have told you to find my postings



> PS: im not nasty, it was a typo. U is next to I, easily happens, hope it doesnt happen again in the future, i write so fast.



you ARE nasty
this is not the first or second time you have been behaving nastily to cover the shame of you ignorance
even with this ignorance you pretend to argue like "very knowledgeable"
what a shame indian!

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## Audio

shuttler said:


> Bull shit it was you who initated by saying I lost every debate and I have told you to find my postings



Nope, if you go back through this thread, it was your post that initiated hostilities when you quoted Fattyacids and stated im clueless. And here it is:



shuttler said:


> He is clueless
> I remember arguing with him hopelessly about significance of time-value of money on the evaluation or buying a electric or gas-engine vehicle in which he didnt have a clue!
> But he likes to argue even he's so ignorant on so many things



So, another lie.....




shuttler said:


> you ARE nasty
> this is not the first or second time you have been behaving nastily to cover the shame of you ignorance
> even with this ignorance you pretend to argue like "very knowledgeable"
> what a shame indian!


 
bwahahahahahaha


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## shuttler

I dont mind genuine discussion even when people are ignorant in one or many subjects


Audio said:


> Nope, if you go back through this thread, it was your post that initiated hostilities when you quoted Fattyacids and stated im clueless. And here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> So, another lie.....
> 
> ahahahahahaha



Talking to your is the greatest pain than talking to a pc of stone!

I am myself not in the know of everything

I hate people pretentious to source from their fake knowledge and making false claims and using nasty name calling as their last resort for covering their shame like you

Now can you go back to the topic and make the tiniest bit of contribution if any, indian?

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## Audio

shuttler said:


> I dont mind genuine discussion even when people are ignorant in one or many subjects
> Talking to your is the greatest pain than talking to a pc of stone!
> I am myself not in the know of everything
> I hate people pretentious to source from their fake knowledge and making false claims and the nasty name calling as their last resort for covering their shame like you
> Now can you go back to the topic and make the tiniest bit of contribution if any, indian?



Ofcourse, i'll consider this baseless rant without any substance as admission of defeat. 
oh btw you contradicted yourself, you say you hate name calling, but you call me Indian. just thought i'd point the discrepancy in your act out.

bwahahahahahahahaha

As always it was a pleasure, now i must go. Friday night and all that!


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## shuttler

Audio said:


> Ofcourse, i'll consider this baseless rant without any substance as admission of defeat.
> oh btw you contradicted yourself, you say you hate name calling, but you call me Indian. just thought i'd point the discrepancy in your act out.
> 
> bwahahahahahahahaha
> 
> As always it was a pleasure, now i must go. Friday night and all that!



You are busted
Just chill out and stfu when you have nothing to contribute
you are just an ignorant nasty pretender of everything

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## bolo

Audio said:


> Ofcourse, i'll consider this baseless rant without any substance as admission of defeat.
> oh btw you contradicted yourself, you say you hate name calling, *but you call me Indian*. just thought i'd point the discrepancy in your act out.
> 
> bwahahahahahahahaha
> 
> As always it was a pleasure, now i must go. Friday night and all that!


 
But you are an indian. How is that name calling?

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## Audio

shuttler said:


> You are busted
> Just chill out and stfu when you have nothing to contribute
> you are just an ignorant nasty pretender of everything




More rants.


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## NiceGuy

Russia lost about 60 billions USD in stock market last night bcz of Crime tension, has China provided any finance support to Russia yet ??


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## Fattyacids

NiceGuy said:


> Russia lost about 60 billions USD in stock market last night bcz of Crime tension, has China provided any finance support to Russia yet ??



Russia stock exchange plunged, but Russia didn't lose any money. The fund are from foreign investors to begin with. 1000 years of Confucius influence on you have gone to waste.

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## slapshot

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The dollar needs to go.


well said! only thing holding USA is that international trade is in dollar. USA will surely go to war if anyone attempts to abandon the dollar.

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## senheiser

Fattyacids said:


> Russia stock exchange plunged, but Russia didn't lose any money. The fund are from foreign investors to begin with. 1000 years of Confucius influence has gone to waste.


RTS is now 6% up again after being 12% down

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## LordTyrannus

Russia did loose nothing. Russia won crimea without firing a single bullet.

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## Fattyacids

senheiser said:


> RTS is now 6% up again after being 12% down



In times of uncertainty, knee jerk reaction is to cash out. Perfectly normal. Dow Jones plunged too when US invaded Iraq.

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## manojb

In order to topple USD you need to sign up major oil producing nations. Let's see who is ready..
arabs ?
Canadians?
Americans?
Venezuela? 
Russia?
Iran?


----------



## Edison Chen

In recent weeks, all eyes have been on a revisionist regime dissatisfied with the post-Cold War status quo, convinced of the geopolitical necessity of and historical right to a hegemonic self-centric regional order, dedicated to the long-term job security of its political leaders, and driven by enduring, geographically-imposed security concerns. What country does this describe? Before Russian aggression in Crimea, the obvious answer would be China. Without a Chinese Putin, China has to take a backseat to Russia as the leading revisionist power.

China, of course, is not Russia. While the two have many differences, the similarities should not be ignored. Since the break-up of the Soviet Union, Moscow’s leaders have not been content to simply accept Russia’s standing as a middling, if nuclear-armed, power. Vladimir Putin described the collapse as the 20th century’s “greatest geopolitical catastrophe.” He was not joking.

The Chinese Communist Party, for its part, likes talking about the “century of humiliation,” in which Western powers and Japan reduced China from the dominant force in Asia to a weak power. Restoring China to its rightful place atop the Asian hierarchy is a central goal of the CCP, which has successfully convinced the Chinese people that it serves as the vanguard of Chinese rejuvenation.

In both the Russian and Chinese cases, historical narratives and ideas about a proper order drive policies aimed at shifting both regional and global balances of power. In both countries, national security leaders believe that international politics is a zero-sum game. Chinese leaders like to talk about “win-win” outcomes, but even Beijing’s proposal to Washington of a “new type of great power relations” seems to mean that China want the keys to the kingdom of international primacy without resistance.

China Is Like Russia | The Weekly Standard

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## Pakistanisage

Pakistan is hoping for the rise of China, soon we hope.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Russia took back Crimea without bloodshed.

China took back my own city of Hong Kong without bloodshed too. And China also got its land back from Tajikistan without bloodshed either.

The idea to to become to overwhelmingly powerful that you can "win without fighting".

China's GDP in 2013 was $9.3 trillion, and we double our GDP every 5-7 years. Soon we will be at a stage where we can win without fighting again. China is still a developing country, when we finally become a developed country we will have plenty of power and plenty to spare as well.

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## flist3773

@Chinese-Dragon Not to mention that within 5 to 7 years from now, Chinese domestic market will be the driver of Chinese economic growth - which is absolutely critical as China can have far more options in its foreign policy. At the same time, we should import more than we export. In fact, I encourage China to run trade surplus as well as developing our financial market. Using HongKong as Chicago and Shanghai as New York City is in my humble view the solution to further develop our financial market. HongKong as the leader in option, derivative market and Shanghai as the de facto clearing house for all RMB.

Furthermore, having the largest market is extremely powerful tool. China in the 5 years from now can shut down Japan.Inc if it ever dares to challenge our supremacy in Asia.

Remember, economic might is military might. Without economic might, military might is just an illusion.

PS. I think China's peaceful annexation of Hong Kong differentiates us from India regarding Goa.  Besides, India's demography ominously resembles that of Soviet Union.

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## Chinese-Dragon

flist3773 said:


> @Chinese-Dragon Not to mention that within 5 to 7 years from now, Chinese domestic market will be the driver of Chinese economic growth - which is absolutely critical as China can have far more options in its foreign policy. At the same time, we should import more than we export. In fact, I encourage China to run trade surplus as well as developing our financial market. Using HongKong as Chicago and Shanghai as New York City is in my humble view the solution to further develop our financial market. HongKong as the leader in option, derivative market and Shanghai as the de facto clearing house for all RMB.
> 
> Furthermore, having the largest market is extremely powerful tool. China in the 5 years from now can shut down Japan.Inc if it ever dares to challenge our supremacy in Asia.
> 
> Remember, economic might is military might. Without economic might, military might is just an illusion.
> 
> PS. I think China's peaceful annexation of Hong Kong differentiates us from India regarding Goa.  Besides, India's demography ominously resembles that of Soviet Union.



I'm a Hong Konger myself, and I remember the 1997 Handover very clearly.

(My family was one of the very first families to arrive in HK hundreds of years ago, so we are considered native Hong Kongers.)

I was never scared of the Mainland. In fact I always considered the PLA to be "my army", and I always considered China to be "my country". Even before the handover, I always felt that way.  

My parents (and the older generation in general) were a little bit more skeptical, but they have generally come to terms with it as well. The younger generation is much better about it, since they are now growing up in a Hong Kong that is part of the PRC.

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## NiceGuy

flist3773 said:


> @
> Furthermore, having the largest market is extremely powerful tool. China in the 5 years from *now can shut down Japan.Inc if it ever dares to challenge our supremacy in Asia.*
> 
> Remember, economic might is military might. Without economic might, military might is just an illusion.
> 
> PS. I think China's peaceful annexation of Hong Kong differentiates us from India regarding Goa.  Besides, India's demography ominously resembles that of Soviet Union.


Japan just simply shift its companies to VN, and from Cat Lai port in Hai Phong(very near China )Japan will export its product to China again.

Poor Chinese lost its job coz Japan shift its companies and investment to VN, but China still be flooded with Japan products that 'made in VN'

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## rott

NiceGuy said:


> Japan just simply shift its companies to VN, and from Cat Lai port in Hai Phong(very near China )Japan will export its product to China again.
> 
> Poor Chinese lost its job coz Japan shift its companies and investment to VN, but China still be flooded with Japan products that 'made in VN'


I suppose you have forgotten to take your daily dose of Agent Orange and Napalm. 
Remember, *half a table spoon, twice a day*.

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## bolo

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I'm a Hong Konger myself, and I remember the 1997 Handover very clearly.
> 
> (My family was one of the very first families to arrive in HK hundreds of years ago, so we are considered native Hong Kongers.)
> 
> I was never scared of the Mainland. In fact I always considered the PLA to be "my army", and I always considered China to be "my country". Even before the handover, I always felt that way.
> 
> My parents (and the older generation in general) were a little bit more skeptical, but they have generally come to terms with it as well. The younger generation is much better about it, since they are now growing up in a Hong Kong that is part of the PRC.


I wish China abolish the dual citizenship hk people have. Either you are Chinese or not. Dual citizenship is just an insurance policy. It kills patriotism

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## Chinese-Dragon

Lux de Veritas said:


> I think your father is wising than you. Else you guys capitalist walk dog may even be raped or killed during Mao's time. There are too many 牛鬼蛇神 cow ghost snake god like you guys than commie would like to rape.



The handover was in 1997, we've been living under PRC rule for almost 20 years now.

Western "horror" stories about "commies" turned out to be nothing but BS.  In fact the PRC is clever, they are using the economy to become powerful, so they can crush your dear ROC within the decade.

The horror stories didn't turn out to be true for us, the handover was a peaceful one. And it is still peaceful today.

You should wish your ROC is so lucky.

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## NiceGuy

rott said:


> I suppose you have forgotten to take your daily dose of Agent Orange and Napalm.
> Remember, *half a table spoon, twice a day*.


U guys'd better to admit the Truth that China is flooded with Japan's products, stop Japan bussiness in China will change Nothing coz Japan can produce car in VN and export back to China from Cat Lai port 


> *Toyota and Honda post record China sales*
> 
> Toyota and Honda drew a record number of Chinese buyers to their brands last year as they recovered from anti-Japanese boycotts that hurt sales in 2012, but failed to narrow the gap with US and European rivals in the world’s biggest passenger-car market.
> 
> Toyota, the world’s largest automaker by volume, said on Monday its two joint ventures in China sold a combined 917,500 vehicles in 2013, an increase of 9.2 per cent over the year before. The company had suffered its first sales decline in China in 2012 as consumers shunned Japanese products amid a bitter territorial dispute between the two countries.
> 
> Toyota and Honda post record China sales - FT.com


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## Chinese-Dragon

Lux de Veritas said:


> I just compliment your father and mother wisdom. You must thank you me.
> 
> Your parents are smart that is why your women folks has no commie cum inside their vagina.
> 
> Commie good or not now is another thing. I would say CCP economics performance is good for pass 35 years.
> 
> See I always say good things.



You have some problem with Chinese people because the Singaporean Chinese majority did not accept a Malay like you as one of those own, is that close to the truth?

Anyway, your post broke forum rules again so I had to give you another negative rating. But you seem to collect those so it's no big problem.

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## Lux de Veritas

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You have some problem with Chinese people because the Singaporean Chinese majority did not accept a Malay like you as one of those own, is that close to the truth?
> 
> Anyway, your post broke forum rules again so I had to give you another negative rating. But you seem to collect those so it's no big problem.



I am 100% pure Quanzhou Chinese.

Just feel PDF PRC are too stupid. The paid commenter wholegrain is clever but he is deceptive. Welcome to make me champion of negative rating. I will attract more attention for all your efforts.

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## bolo

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You have some problem with Chinese people because the Singaporean Chinese majority did not accept a Malay like you as one of those own, is that close to the truth?
> 
> Anyway, your post broke forum rules again so I had to give you another negative rating. But you seem to collect those so it's no big problem.


Why not report him.it will be strike three for him.

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## Chinese-Dragon

bolo said:


> Why not report him.it will be strike three for him.



Can't be bothered.

Anyway it serves a good purpose, it shows the world the true nature of these ROC supporters. 

ROC is doomed anyway, nobody even recognizes it as a country. No major country, and not the UN (i.e. the body which sets International law). PRC will take it back within a decade, peacefully or not.

Doesn't matter what the Malay says, the ROC has no chance at all.

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## Lux de Veritas

bolo said:


> Why not report him.it will be strike three for him.



I am more easily ban than anyone else in this forum FYI. I poke fun of PRC, Islamofascist and speak the truth. I told PDF if you ban me, there will be no fun, because so many like minded PRC will masturbate here.

Wholegrain will be lonely, no one seems to neutralize him effectively making him like genius.

With me here, PDF will have diversity, and not getting into herd mentality.


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## shiv

China cannot be russia .. maybe in next 5 years !


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## Beidou2020

flist3773 said:


> @Chinese-Dragon Not to mention that within 5 to 7 years from now, Chinese domestic market will be the driver of Chinese economic growth - which is absolutely critical as China can have far more options in its foreign policy. At the same time, we should import more than we export. In fact, I encourage China to run trade surplus as well as developing our financial market. Using HongKong as Chicago and Shanghai as New York City is in my humble view the solution to further develop our financial market. HongKong as the leader in option, derivative market and Shanghai as the de facto clearing house for all RMB.
> 
> Furthermore, having the largest market is extremely powerful tool. China in the 5 years from now can shut down Japan.Inc if it ever dares to challenge our supremacy in Asia.
> 
> Remember, economic might is military might. Without economic might, military might is just an illusion.
> 
> PS. I think China's peaceful annexation of Hong Kong differentiates us from India regarding Goa.  Besides, India's demography ominously resembles that of Soviet Union.



Yes, China needs the largest consumer market, self-sufficiency in all critical technologies, deep and liquid financial markets (stock, bond, derivative, commodity) and use of the Renminbi in trade, investment and finance.

Economic, Financial and Technological power is the key to military and political power.

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## Viet

Lux de Veritas said:


> I am more easily ban than anyone else in this forum FYI. I poke fun of PRC, Islamofascist and speak the truth. I told PDF if you ban me, there will be no fun, because so many like minded PRC will masturbate here.
> 
> Wholegrain will be lonely, no one seems to neutralize him effectively making him like genius.
> 
> With me here, PDF will have diversity, and not getting into herd mentality.


I hope you come back soon again...


----------



## Rechoice

China is like Soviet Union.

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## Nan Yang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Russia took back Crimea without bloodshed.
> 
> China took back my own city of Hong Kong without bloodshed too. And China also got its land back from Tajikistan without bloodshed either.
> 
> The idea to to become to overwhelmingly powerful that you can "win without fighting".
> 
> China's GDP in 2013 was $9.3 trillion, and we double our GDP every 5-7 years. Soon we will be at a stage where we can win without fighting again. China is still a developing country, when we finally become a developed country we will have plenty of power and plenty to spare as well.



Russia took back Crimea without bloodshed cannot be compared with China taking Hong Kong. Russia taking back Crimea is more like "Looting a burning House".
Ukraine was in a mess. No military. Country that is bankcrupt. Non functioning Government.

On the other hand, China took back Hong Kong with its reserves in billions of $ intact.
Bear in mind also that United Kingdom was on the high after defeating Argentina at Falkland....Only to lose Hong Kong without firing a shot.

For China it was truly the acme of warfare.

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## Akasa

shiv said:


> China cannot be russia .. maybe in next 5 years !



And why is that so? China has comparable political influences as well as military status, but China's GDP is larger.


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## TheTruth

No such thing as "Republic of Formosa". It's called "Republic of China", and yes, killing Viets is the easiest thing in the world - just ask America, Cambodia and China.


----------



## senheiser

Rechoice said:


> China is like Soviet Union.


and what was so bad about the soviet union? without them you would still be a colony

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## Rechoice

senheiser said:


> and what was so bad about the soviet union? without them you would still be a colony




Without cold war followed WW II, Vietnam could regained independence based on proposal of Ho Chi Minh in 1946 to France, he has been dismissed communist party and established Socialist and Socialist parties for Vietnam and suggested that Vietnam is independence state in France federation, not colony.

but idiot De Gaul refuted and would like to conquer Vietnam again with force. It let Soviet Union, China and USA interfering There is real history of us.

Soviet Union helped us, but China tried to divide our country as he did 1954 and 1972 to make friend with France and USA.

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## NiceGuy

senheiser said:


> and what was so bad about the soviet union? without them you would still be a colony


Some VNese like American . Thats why, we have the war between North and South.. thanks God, its over now



Rechoice said:


> Without cold war followed WW II, Vietnam could regained independence based on proposal of Ho Chi Minh in 1946 to France, he has been dismissed communist party and established Socialist and Socialist parties for Vietnam and suggested that Vietnam is independence state in France federation, not colony.
> 
> but idiot De Gaul refuted and would like to conquer Vietnam again with force. It let Soviet Union, China and USA interfering There is real history of us.
> 
> Soviet Union helped us, but China tried to divide our country as he did 1954 and 1972.


Russia is the Great friend of VN . VN and Russia is tying up the relationship during US's sanction to Russia . Hope to see Mr. Roman Arkadievich Abramovich invest in VN soon 

China is always bad to VN, no need to mention about it.

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## TheTruth

Lee Teng-hui is an absolute retard, so I can see why you like him. Yet he doesn't want Taiwan to be part of Japan.


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## Edison Chen

Vietnam can associate anything with themselves, don't be fooled. Does the post ever mentioned them?


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Silly comparison. Russia has a much more sophisticated diplomatic approach. China has a cruder way of showing it's aggression because half of the policy is showing it's own people that CPC is in control.



xunzi said:


> I never understand why the Vietnamese behavior acts like they are some significant world power. Are they trying to fool the world? LOL


 
That's the kind of question the Russians will never ask. That's why Russia is not like the Chinese.



ghara ghan said:


> @senheiser nice avatar, who is she ? your girlfriend ?


 
She's the new administrator of Crimea. Putin gets the best of women too

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## TheTruth

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Silly comparison. Russia has a much more sophisticated diplomatic approach. China has a cruder way of showing it's aggression because half of the policy is showing it's own people that CPC is in control.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the kind of question the Russians will never ask. That's why Russia is not like the Chinese.
> 
> 
> 
> She's the new administrator of Crimea. Putin gets the best of women too



Yes, showing aggression = defending yourself when India invades north of the territory she claimed under a treaty that was null and void even when it was signed.


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## Martian2

My comment on Global Times.

Creative countermeasures needed to deal with Manila’s S. China Sea schemes | Global Times

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## ChineseTiger1986

The problem is that we are not interested in Pinoy or Viet's land.

China is more interested about Taiwan and Mongolia so far.

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## Raphael

Annex the failppines? Gag me.


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## Akasa

Let's face it; China's surface vessels do not need to be catching up with that of Moscow. Submarines, perhaps.


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## sincity

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The problem is that we are not interested in Pinoy or Viet's land.
> 
> China is more interested about Taiwan and Mongolia so far.


 


You think Vietnamese will vote to join China, will China use force to annex Viet Nam? What are you talking about interest in annexing Viet Nam land or Phillipine for that matter? Are you smoking crack?

Try some weed and ease up on your aggression.

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## ChineseTiger1986

sincity said:


> You think Vietnamese will vote to join China, will China use force to annex Viet Nam? What are you talking about interest in annexing Viet Nam land or Phillipine for that matter? Are you smoking crack?



No one in China wanna Vietnam or Philippines to join China.

Do you understand what i said or you were simply putting words into my mouth?


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## ViXuyen

Amphibious landing in the Phillipines?


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## sincity

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> No one in China wanna Vietnam or Philippines to join China.
> 
> Do you understand what i said or you are simply putting words into my mouth?


 


No one in Viet Nam and Phillipine want to join China, don't make it sound like China can annex any neighbor land but have no interest to do so.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ViXuyen said:


> Amphibious landing in the Phillipines?



China doesn't wanna feed some extra 100 million people.



sincity said:


> No one in Viet Nam and Phillipine want to join China, don't make it sound like China can annex any neighbor land but have no interest to do so.



No China can't annex them, but China can bomb them back to stone age with ease.

But we do care about our reputation around the world.


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## sincity

Lay off the crack pipe, stop day dreaming about territorial conquest.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China doesn't wanna feed some extra 100 million people.
> 
> 
> 
> No China can't annex them, but China can bomb them back to stone age with ease.
> 
> But we do care about our reputation around the world.


 


The fag you talking about? Bomb them into stone age? You think the world won't retaliate against China naked aggression?

All it take are the gang of 8 forcefully turned China into the yellow peril and the sickman of Asia then you will refrain from expouse your illussion of bombing other nation into submission.

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## sweetgrape

sincity said:


> Lay off the crack pipe, stop day dreaming about territorial conquest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fag you talking about? Bomb them into stone age? You think the world won't retaliate against China naked aggression?
> 
> All it take are the gang of 8 forcefully turned China into the yellow peril and the sickman of Asia then you will refrain from expouse your illussion of bombing other nation into submission.


Find you are ridiculous, you flame the quarrel, ChineseTiger said we don't interesting in Vietnam and Philippine? it is wrong?
should said we are interesting in them?( You still will flame the quarrel).

We can bomb them, mean we will? USA also can destroy the earth, but you don't want do that, just mean you have that capability, I konw you hate China, but first understand other's comments, want trolling, open new thread, don't jump up and down, like a idiotic clown.

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## ViXuyen

Nothing that we can't handle. During the 11-day Christmas bombing in Ha Noi and Hai Phong, 20,000 tons of TNT were dropped and it did not shake us one bit. During the 81-day battle at the Quang Tri Citadel in 1972, 268,000 tons of TNT were dropped and it did not prevent the NVA from reunifying the country.


----------



## Sam1980

Kardashev scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If this goes on, we can't achieve a mere type 1 civilization, let alone type 3!


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## sincity

sweetgrape said:


> Find you are ridiculous, you flame the quarrel, ChineseTiger said we don't interesting in Vietnam and Philippine? it is wrong?
> should said we are interesting them?
> 
> We can bomb them, mean we will? USA also can destroy the earth, but you don't want do that, just mean you have that capability, I konw you hate China, but first understand other's comments, want trolling, open new thread, don't jump up and down, like a idiotic clown.


 


If China government won't bomb other nations, you and your comrade in no position to say China can bomb other nation into stone age. The other poster old enough to reply what I wrote to him, he don't need you come into his defend like a comrade in arm fighting a jungle war. This just a internet forum, if Chinese poster don't want other to post their opinion then don't open any thread for discussion. This forum isn't exclussive for Chinese poster only.

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## Viet

Martian2 said:


> My comment on Global Times.
> 
> Creative countermeasures needed to deal with Manila’s S. China Sea schemes | Global Times


sounds as good plan. what is stopping you?



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China doesn't wanna feed some extra 100 million people.
> 
> No China can't annex them, but *China can bomb them back to stone age with ease.*
> 
> But we do care about our reputation around the world.


...do you think we will sit still and do nothing?
come back from Canada and join the army, you coward!



sweetgrape said:


> Find you are ridiculous, you flame the quarrel, ChineseTiger said we don't interesting in Vietnam and Philippine? it is wrong?
> should said we are interesting in them?( You still will flame the quarrel).
> 
> We can bomb them, mean we will? USA also can destroy the earth, but you don't want do that, just mean you have that capability, I konw you hate China, but first understand other's comments, want trolling, open new thread, don't jump up and down, like a idiotic clown.


don´t you read chinesebutt comment? he says China can bomb and does not care about reputation.

when I say America can bomb your head, they will?
sure, they will do! you idiot.

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## xunzi

sincity said:


> Lay off the crack pipe, stop day dreaming about territorial conquest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fag you talking about? Bomb them into stone age? You think the world won't retaliate against China naked aggression?
> 
> All it take are the gang of 8 forcefully turned China into the yellow peril and the sickman of Asia then you will refrain from expouse your illussion of bombing other nation into submission.


Rightttt... but you didn't have the ball to try invading our country again , do you?


----------



## Viet

ViXuyen said:


> Nothing that we can't handle. During the 11-day Christmas bombing in Ha Noi and Hai Phong, 20,000 tons of TNT were dropped and it did not shake us one bit. During the 81-day battle at the Quang Tri Citadel in 1972, 268,000 tons of TNT were dropped and it did not prevent the NVA from reunifying the country.


Chinese posters run amok again. the smog kills off their brains.


----------



## xunzi

Viet said:


> Chinese posters run amok again. the smog kills off their brains.


He is correct. We do have the capability to turn your country into barren land and wipe out all Vietnamese civilization but you do not have the capability to do that to us. Fact is fact. Put your ego aside and face the fact. Until you demonstrate you have the capabilities to destroy us, then you are in no position to talk tough. Only USA and Russia can do that to us.

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## Viet

SinoSoldier said:


> Let's face it; China's surface vessels do not need to be catching up with that of Moscow. Submarines, perhaps.


Ukraine does not have an army, but Vietnam. the Philippines has the backing of America.
if China wants to start a war, do it.


----------



## xunzi

Viet said:


> Ukraine does not have an army, but Vietnam. the Philippines has the backing of America.
> if China wants to start a war, do it.


America will not fight over you. PLEASE! LOL.

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## Viet

xunzi said:


> He is correct. We do have the capability to turn your country into barren land and *wipe out all Vietnamese civilization *but you do not have the capability to do that to us. Fact is fact. Put your ego aside and face the fact. Until you demonstrate you have the capabilities to destroy us, then you are in no position to talk tough. Only USA and Russia can do that to us.


wipe out Vietnam?
isn´t not the dream of Pol Pot in the 1970s?

you are one of the most reasonable members. what is happening to you?


----------



## cnleio

Dig the oil and mines for China !!!

It's 100% waste time and energy to manage foreigner's lands and feed their poor ppl. Leave them alone, they will be bite by their fool leaders or politicians and their nation will be collapsing.


----------



## Viet

xunzi said:


> America will not fight over you. PLEASE! LOL.


I say the Pinoys have US backing as the defence treaty.
Vietnam only needs US weapons.


----------



## xunzi

Viet said:


> wipe out Vietnam?
> isn´t not the dream of Pol Pot in the 1970s?
> 
> you are one of the most reasonable members. what is happening to you?


You need to put your ego aside and face the reality, here. I am being very reasonable with you here. We have the capabilities but it doesn't necessary mean we will destroy your country. We have no reason to consider your Vietnam is like a little China. I must say, your compatriots' big mouth certainly learn that from us. LOL.



Viet said:


> I say the Pinoys have US backing as the defence treaty.
> Vietnam only needs US weapons.


You seriously believe the US will risk themselves to fight a war for a country that kick them out like a dog in the 1990s?


----------



## sincity

xunzi said:


> He is correct. We do have the capability to turn your country into barren land and wipe out all Vietnamese civilization but you do not have the capability to do that to us. Fact is fact. Put your ego aside and face the fact. Until you demonstrate you have the capabilities to destroy us, then you are in no position to talk tough. Only USA and Russia can do that to us.


 

All Viet Nam need are couple of nuclear weapons enough to check China aggression.


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> All Viet Nam need are couple of nuclear weapons enough to check China aggression.


Yeah if you are willing to sell them some of your nuke. LOL.


----------



## sincity

cnleio said:


> Dig the oil and mines for China !!!
> 
> It's 100% waste time and energy to manage foreigner's lands and feed their poor ppl. Leave them alone, they will be bite by their fool leaders or politicians and their nation will be collapsing.


 


China won't be able to explore the oil in South China Sea without the consent of other claiment in the dispute area. China is a big nation but history proved when the whole world turn against China, China broken up into piece.



xunzi said:


> Yeah if you are willing to sell them some of your nuke. LOL.


 


China is Viet Nam neighbor same as N.K is China neighbor, don't need to travel far to deliver a nuclear weapons on China mainland. You destroy them then China also will be in ruin. N.K can develop nuke then so is Viet Nam as long as U.S willing to help them build civiliance nuclear facilities Viet Nam in future will have the capable of building one.


----------



## cnleio

sincity said:


> China won't be able to explore the oil in South China Sea without the consent of other claiment in the dispute area. China is a big nation but history proved when the whole world turn against China, China broken up into piece.


Yes, the time when whole world turn against China, guns in West army's hands but swords in Chinese hands.
Not this time, when Chinese and the West has the same ultimate weapons. It's fair for each other when we sit on both sides of the table.


----------



## Viet

sincity said:


> All Viet Nam need are couple of *nuclear weapons *enough to check China aggression.


Vietnam has a running nuclear reactor in Da Lat. Russia is giving $500m to Vietnam for building a brand-new nuclear center. With the help of Russia, Vietnam can quickly develop nuclear weapons. For nuclear deterrence, we need a dozen nuclear subs and hundreds of missiles.

Intellasia East Asia News - Vietnam, Russia to construct $500 million atomic energy centre


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> China is Viet Nam neighbor same as N.K is China neighbor, don't need to travel far to deliver a nuclear weapons on China mainland. You destroy them then China also will be in ruin. N.K can develop nuke then so is Viet Nam as long as U.S willing to help them build civiliance nuclear facilities Viet Nam in future will have the capable of building one.


What universe do you live in? N.K capability of building a dirty nuke is questionable. I think you need to understand how unclear weapon is made before you open your mouth.


----------



## sincity

xunzi said:


> What universe do you live in? N.K capability of building a dirty nuke is questionable. I think you need to understand how unclear weapon is made before you open your mouth.


 


Shut your yap, don't pretend you are a nuclear expert and demand other not to voice thier opinion. You're as a clueless nuclear expert as anyone in here.

Chinese poster in here pounding their chess and yapping outloud too much.

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## xunzi

Viet said:


> Vietnam has a running nuclear reactor in Da Lat. Russia is giving $500m to Vietnam for building a brand-new nuclear center. With the help of Russia, Vietnam can quickly develop nuclear weapons. For nuclear deterrence, we need a dozen nuclear subs and hundreds of missiles.
> 
> Intellasia East Asia News - Vietnam, Russia to construct $500 million atomic energy centre


How do you build nuke if you don't have the blueprint nor the facility nor the technological capability to enriching uranium? And where are you getting the uranium to build one?


----------



## Viet

xunzi said:


> You need to put your ego aside and face the reality, here. I am being very reasonable with you here. We have the capabilities but it doesn't necessary mean we will destroy your country. We have no reason to consider your Vietnam is like a little China. I must say, your compatriots' big mouth certainly learn that from us. LOL.


you are on drugs today.


xunzi said:


> You seriously believe the US will risk themselves to fight a war for a country that kick them out like a dog in the 1990s?


The US has the obligation to defend the Philippines as per the treaty.

Do you want to bet? It is not wise to put the fate of China at risk.


----------



## sincity

xunzi said:


> How do you build nuke if you don't have the blueprint nor the facility nor the technological capability to enriching uranium? And where are you getting the uranium to build one?


 


Just depend on the west want Viet Nam to possess nuclear weapons or not. Those question are irrelevance to whether Viet Nam can or can't build their nuclear weapons.


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> Shut your yap, don't pretend you are a nuclear expert and demand other not to voice thier opinion. You're as a clueless nuclear expert as anyone in here.
> 
> Chinese poster in here pounding their chess and yapping outloud too much.


LOL! Why are you hurt by what I said which is the truth? Do you understand how nuclear weapon is made? I'm quite honestly curious about it. LOL.



sincity said:


> Just depend on the west want Viet Nam to possess nuclear weapons or not. Those question are irrelevance to whether Viet Nam can or can't build their nuclear weapons.


So you are saying the US will gift wrap Vietnam a nuke in a box on holiday, right? LOL!

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## sincity

xunzi said:


> LOL! Why are you hurt by what I said which is the truth? Do you understand how nuclear weapon is made? I'm quite honestly curious about it. LOL.


 

I didn't say that I'm a nuclear scientist and know how to build a nuclear weapons. I said when N.K can build their own nuclear weapons so will Viet Nam if they decide to build one. You are asking a dumb question why would I hurt with the question you posted.

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## xunzi

Viet said:


> you are on drugs today.
> 
> The US has the obligation to defend the Philippines as per the treaty.
> 
> Do you want to bet? It is not wise to put the fate of China at risk.


Why would the US defend the Philippines who start the conflict by arresting our fisherman in dispute water?


----------



## Viet

xunzi said:


> How do you build nuke if you don't have the blueprint nor the facility nor the technological capability to enriching uranium? *And where are you getting the uranium to build one?*


Vietnam is going to have 10 nuclear power plants that can produce plutonium for hundreds of nukes.


----------



## sincity

xunzi said:


> LOL! Why are you hurt by what I said which is the truth? Do you understand how nuclear weapon is made? I'm quite honestly curious about it. LOL.
> 
> 
> So you are saying the US will gift wrap Vietnam a nuke in a box on holiday, right? LOL!


 


The nuclear weapons blue print are out there if Viet Nam want to acquire one, China not the only nations have scientist and not only nations in possession of nuclear weapons. If there is a will there will be a way.


----------



## cnleio

Viet said:


> Vietnam has a running nuclear reactor in Da Lat. Russia is giving $500m to Vietnam for building a brand-new nuclear center. With the help of Russia, Vietnam can quickly develop nuclear weapons. For nuclear deterrence, we need a dozen nuclear subs and hundreds of missiles.
> 
> Intellasia East Asia News - Vietnam, Russia to construct $500 million atomic energy centre


Not weapon-level nuclear materials, bro. Even weapon-level, u need tons.


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> I didn't say that I'm a nuclear scientist and know how to build a nuclear weapons. I said when N.K can build their own nuclear weapons so will Viet Nam if they decide to build one. You are asking a dumb question why would I hurt with the question you posted.


NK is building a dirty nuclear bomb. LOL

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## sincity

xunzi said:


> NK is building a dirty nuclear bomb. LOL


 


Are you sure N.K only build a dirty nuclear bomb? What is a dirty nuclear bomb since you such an expertise in nuclear weapons.


----------



## cnleio

sincity said:


> The nuclear weapons blue print are out there if Viet Nam want to acquire one, China not the only nations have scientist and not only nations in possession of nuclear weapons. If there is a will there will be a way.


FOOL ! @sincity Did u think twice if many small nations own nuke tech and world nuclear weapon spread, how U.S stay ur N.o1 super-power ?! F-22, Aircraft Carrier, M1A2, the great Navy, the great Airforce all become craps to face Nuke explode. When most nation military forces in this world have their nukes, what U.S.A become ???

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## shuttler

sincity said:


> *China won't be able to explore the oil in South China Sea without the consent of other claiment in the dispute area. * China is a big nation but history proved when the whole world turn against China, China broken up into piece.



You really suck at what you said:





Credit: online.wsj.com

*CNOOC makes gas discovery in Qiongdongnan basin*
HOUSTON, Mar. 19
03/19/2014
By OGJ editors





*CNOOC Ltd. has made a natural gas discovery in the east Lingshui Sag of the deepwater area in the South China Sea’s Qiongdongnan basin.*

The Lingshui 17-2-1 discovery well, drilled in 1,450 m of water, was completed at a depth of 3,510 m and encountered the gas reservoir with 55 m of total thickness.

CNOOC said, “The discovery has not only proven the exploration potential of structural and lithologic trap in central Canyon channel of Lingshui Sag, but also further confirmed the good exploration prospects in deepwater area of Qiongdongnan basin.”

CNOOC makes gas discovery in Qiongdongnan basin - Oil & Gas Journal

and this:





Credit: article.wn.com

OilVoice | Husky Energy delivers production at the Liwan Gas Project in the South China Sea

*Husky Energy (TSX:HSE) and CNOOC Limited have commenced first production at the landmark Liwan Gas Project in the South China Sea.*

"Liwan is Husky's largest project to date and places us inside the door of one of the fastest growing energy markets in the world," said CEO Asim Ghosh. "It was a massive undertaking and is a great achievement for deepwater gas production in the Asia Pacific Region."

Located approximately 300 kilometres southeast of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, the project consists of three fields: Liwan 3-1, Liuhua 34-2 and Liuhua 29-1, which share a subsea production system, subsea pipeline transportation and onshore gas processing infrastructure.

The Liwan 3-1 field has started production, with initial natural gas sales expected to be approximately 250 million cubic feet per day (mmcf/day) gross and increasing to approximately 300 mmcf/day in the second half of 2014. Initial sales of condensates and natural gas liquids from Liwan 3-1 are expected to be approximately 10,000 to 14,000 barrels of oil equivalent per day (boe/day) gross.

The Liuhua 34-2 field will be tied into the Liwan infrastructure in the second half of 2014, subject to final approvals. Production from the Liwan 3-1 field is scheduled to go offline for approximately six to eight weeks to provide for the tie-in of the field.

Following the tie in of Liuhua 34-2, combined gas sales are anticipated to increase to approximately 340 mmcf/day (gross). Natural gas from both fields will be processed at the onshore gas terminal at Gaolan and sold to the mainland China market, with initial gas production covered by fixed-price gas sales agreements.

Total gas sales are expected to rise towards a range of 400 to 500 mmcf/day (gross) with the planned tie-in of the Liuhua 29-1 field in the 2016-2017 timeframe.

Production from Liwan will contribute to the Company's growth this year as per overall guidance. The startup was achieved during one of the most extreme weather seasons in recent history in the South China Sea. Husky expects to achieve the lower end of its Asia Pacific production guidance of 35,000 to 45,000 boe/day.

Husky holds a 49 percent interest in the Production Sharing Contract (PSC) for the Liwan Gas Project and operates the deepwater infrastructure. Its partner CNOOC Limited holds a 51 percent interest in the PSC and operates the shallow water facilities and onshore gas terminal. The first stage of the US$6.5 billion project connecting the Liwan 3-1 field and work to date to tie in the Liuhua 34-2 field have been completed on budget.

The Company continues to advance a rich portfolio of opportunities in the Asia Pacific Region, including shallow water gas developments offshore Indonesia and exploration prospects offshore Taiwan.

*QUICK FACTS:*


Husky's working interest in the Liwan Gas Project is 49 percent.
Initial gas sales of approximately 250 mmcf/day (gross) from Liwan 3-1 is expected to rise to about 300 mmcf/day in the second half of 2014. It is then expected to increase to about 340 mmcf/day (gross) following the Liuhua 34-2 tie-in and rise to a range of 400 to 500 mmcf/day (gross) once Liuhua 29-1 is online.
Husky's share of sales gas from the Liwan project in 2014 is expected to be in the range of 20,000-25,000 boe/day, including cost recovery. Liquids production net to Husky is expected to be in the range of 5,000-7,000 boe/day, including cost recovery.
The Liwan 3-1 and Liuhua 34-2 gas sales price is US$11 to $13 per thousand cubic feet (mcf) in the initial five contract years, then floating referenced to the Guangdong City Gate price thereafter. Natural gas liquids will initially be sold to the mainland China market at competitive market pricing.
Negotiations are underway for the Liuhua 29-1 gas sales contract.
Husky expects to recover approximately $800 million in exploration costs in the first 18 months of production.
Operating costs are expected to be approximately 10 percent of gross revenues.
Royalties/taxes are expected to be approximately 20 percent of gross revenues.


----------



## sincity

shuttler said:


> You really suck at what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit: online.wsj.com
> 
> *CNOOC makes gas discovery in Qiongdongnan basin*
> HOUSTON, Mar. 19
> 03/19/2014
> By OGJ editors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CNOOC Ltd. has made a natural gas discovery in the east Lingshui Sag of the deepwater area in the South China Sea’s Qiongdongnan basin.*
> 
> The Lingshui 17-2-1 discovery well, drilled in 1,450 m of water, was completed at a depth of 3,510 m and encountered the gas reservoir with 55 m of total thickness.
> 
> CNOOC said, “The discovery has not only proven the exploration potential of structural and lithologic trap in central Canyon channel of Lingshui Sag, but also further confirmed the good exploration prospects in deepwater area of Qiongdongnan basin.”
> 
> CNOOC makes gas discovery in Qiongdongnan basin - Oil & Gas Journal
> 
> and this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit: article.wn.com
> 
> OilVoice | Husky Energy delivers production at the Liwan Gas Project in the South China Sea
> 
> Husky Energy (TSX:HSE) and CNOOC Limited have commenced first production at the landmark Liwan Gas Project in the South China Sea.
> 
> "Liwan is Husky's largest project to date and places us inside the door of one of the fastest growing energy markets in the world," said CEO Asim Ghosh. "It was a massive undertaking and is a great achievement for deepwater gas production in the Asia Pacific Region."
> 
> Located approximately 300 kilometres southeast of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, the project consists of three fields: Liwan 3-1, Liuhua 34-2 and Liuhua 29-1, which share a subsea production system, subsea pipeline transportation and onshore gas processing infrastructure.
> 
> The Liwan 3-1 field has started production, with initial natural gas sales expected to be approximately 250 million cubic feet per day (mmcf/day) gross and increasing to approximately 300 mmcf/day in the second half of 2014. Initial sales of condensates and natural gas liquids from Liwan 3-1 are expected to be approximately 10,000 to 14,000 barrels of oil equivalent per day (boe/day) gross.
> 
> The Liuhua 34-2 field will be tied into the Liwan infrastructure in the second half of 2014, subject to final approvals. Production from the Liwan 3-1 field is scheduled to go offline for approximately six to eight weeks to provide for the tie-in of the field.
> 
> Following the tie in of Liuhua 34-2, combined gas sales are anticipated to increase to approximately 340 mmcf/day (gross). Natural gas from both fields will be processed at the onshore gas terminal at Gaolan and sold to the mainland China market, with initial gas production covered by fixed-price gas sales agreements.
> 
> Total gas sales are expected to rise towards a range of 400 to 500 mmcf/day (gross) with the planned tie-in of the Liuhua 29-1 field in the 2016-2017 timeframe.
> 
> Production from Liwan will contribute to the Company's growth this year as per overall guidance. The startup was achieved during one of the most extreme weather seasons in recent history in the South China Sea. Husky expects to achieve the lower end of its Asia Pacific production guidance of 35,000 to 45,000 boe/day.
> 
> Husky holds a 49 percent interest in the Production Sharing Contract (PSC) for the Liwan Gas Project and operates the deepwater infrastructure. Its partner CNOOC Limited holds a 51 percent interest in the PSC and operates the shallow water facilities and onshore gas terminal. The first stage of the US$6.5 billion project connecting the Liwan 3-1 field and work to date to tie in the Liuhua 34-2 field have been completed on budget.
> 
> The Company continues to advance a rich portfolio of opportunities in the Asia Pacific Region, including shallow water gas developments offshore Indonesia and exploration prospects offshore Taiwan.
> 
> *QUICK FACTS:*
> 
> 
> Husky's working interest in the Liwan Gas Project is 49 percent.
> Initial gas sales of approximately 250 mmcf/day (gross) from Liwan 3-1 is expected to rise to about 300 mmcf/day in the second half of 2014. It is then expected to increase to about 340 mmcf/day (gross) following the Liuhua 34-2 tie-in and rise to a range of 400 to 500 mmcf/day (gross) once Liuhua 29-1 is online.
> Husky's share of sales gas from the Liwan project in 2014 is expected to be in the range of 20,000-25,000 boe/day, including cost recovery. Liquids production net to Husky is expected to be in the range of 5,000-7,000 boe/day, including cost recovery.
> The Liwan 3-1 and Liuhua 34-2 gas sales price is US$11 to $13 per thousand cubic feet (mcf) in the initial five contract years, then floating referenced to the Guangdong City Gate price thereafter. Natural gas liquids will initially be sold to the mainland China market at competitive market pricing.
> Negotiations are underway for the Liuhua 29-1 gas sales contract.
> Husky expects to recover approximately $800 million in exploration costs in the first 18 months of production.
> Operating costs are expected to be approximately 10 percent of gross revenues.
> Royalties/taxes are expected to be approximately 20 percent of gross revenues.


 


Don't reply any of my post with any article, I'm not interest in reading it. Save your link and to posted the link when I didn't ask for any.


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> The nuclear weapons blue print are out there if Viet Nam want to acquire one, China not the only nations have scientist and not only nations in possession of nuclear weapons. If there is a will there will be a way.


I don't think you understand the difference between having the blueprint and having the right ingredient and the capability which require mastering enrichment technique which require having uranium to begin with.


Viet said:


> Vietnam is going to have 10 nuclear power plants that can produce plutonium for hundreds of nukes.


Not weapon grade enrichment facilities. You are not allow to have enrichment.


----------



## sincity

cnleio said:


> FOOL ! @sincity Did u think twice if many small nations own nuke tech and world nuclear weapon spread, how U.S stay ur N.o1 super-power ?! F-22, Aircraft Carrier, M1A2, the great Navy, the great Airforce all become craps to face Nuke explode. When most nation military forces in this world have their nukes, what U.S.A become ???


 


Big nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are responsible nuclear arm nation. Small nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are reckless with their nuclear weapons and want to start a nuclear war. All nation need to possess nuke will deter any nation start a war with their naked aggression.


----------



## shuttler

sincity said:


> Don't reply any of my post with any article, I'm not interest in reading it. Save your link and to posted the link when I didn't ask for any.



you suck at what you claimed caveman!
learn how to read to become more educated not to be an illiterate making false accusations!


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> Are you sure N.K only build a dirty nuclear bomb? What is a dirty nuclear bomb since you such an expertise in nuclear weapons.


A cross breed between a dirty bomb and fission bomb. They are far from mastering thermonuclear weapon.


----------



## sincity

shuttler said:


> you suck at what you claimed caveman!
> learn how to read to become more educated not to be an illiterate making false accusations!


 '

Dumbfuck this is a internet forum, you isn't in a academy forum to discuss and acquire knowledge you dumbfuck. Save your time and don't post any unrelated link to whatever I posted in this thread.


----------



## shuttler

sincity said:


> '
> 
> Dumbfuck this is a internet forum, you isn't in a academy forum to discuss and acquire knowledge you dumbfuck. Save your time and don't post any unrelated link to whatever I posted in this thread.



Dumbfuck !
Cant accept you illiteracy!?!

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## sweetgrape

Viet said:


> sounds as good plan. what is stopping you?
> 
> 
> ...do you think we will sit still and do nothing?
> come back from Canada and join the army, you coward!
> 
> 
> don´t you read chinesebutt comment? he says China can bomb and does not care about reputation.
> 
> when I say America can bomb your head, they will?
> sure, they will do! you idiot.


ChineseTiger has said "does not care about reputation"? idiot!

America has bombed you idiotic vietnam, as to China, we are waiting for him, you idiot!


----------



## sincity

xunzi said:


> A cross breed between a dirty bomb and fission bomb. They are far from mastering thermonuclear weapon.


 


You freaking come up with a term nuclear dirty bomb? The fag you come up with a cross breeding a bomb? Save it for whatever you try to prove you knowledgable in nuclear science. Nothing to prove on the internet, I don't care if you are a genius or a dumbfuck.


----------



## xunzi

sincity said:


> Big nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are responsible nuclear arm nation. Small nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are reckless with their nuclear weapons and want to start a nuclear war. All nation need to possess nuke will deter any nation start a war with their naked aggression.


Wrong. The risk of major global catastrophe will be higher if everyone acquires nuke. The fact remains, major powers have nuke to prevent each other from mutual destruction and destruction to earth as a whole. Major powers do not need nuclear weapon to defeat smaller powers. They can do so conventionally. Now if small states have nuke, the possibility of using nuclear weapon will be exponentially higher because that is their only chance and that is dangerous to the world. Therefore, NPT is design to block that movement. Big, medium, and small states all agree on that.

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## sincity

xunzi said:


> Wrong. The risk of major global catastrophe will be higher if everyone acquires nuke. The fact remains, major powers have nuke to prevent each other from mutual destruction and destruction to earth as a whole. Major powers do not need nuclear weapon to defeat smaller powers. They can do so conventionally. Now if small states have nuke, the possibility of using nuclear weapon will be exponentially higher and that is dangerous to the world. Therefore, NPT is design to block that movement. Big, medium, and small states all agree on that.


 


Major power can use their military might to bomb other nation without a justifiable cause then small nation in the possession of nuclear weapons can use nuclear threat to protect themselve from a warmonger powerful nation.


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## cnleio

sincity said:


> Big nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are responsible nuclear arm nation. Small nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are reckless with their nuclear weapons and want to start a nuclear war. All nation need to possess nuke will deter any nation start a war with their naked aggression.


Today U.S, Russia, China Top3 have the most of nuclear weapons in this world (although China has much less than U.S and Russia),Top3 have whole kinds of nuclear weapon tech. It's stupid idea like u talked, transfer nuclear weapon tech to other small nations and forget how to play nuclear balance in the world.

Like America help Vietnam build nuke, Russia or China also can help South America build nukes. If we do that, today world rules must be changed coz the nuke will become some kind of conventional weapon used by many nations in next War, ppl will nuke others and others will re-nuke them. Can American survive when Nuke explode or under ?! It's no doubt the Nuke can crash any advanced hi-tech weapons used by American, Russia, China. Most citizens will die in Nuke War, and Super-power also will gone.


The Ultimate Weapon can finish Super-power and destroy all human, coz there's no any place to avoid nuclear damages. I can imagine u will jump out if find out Cuba has nukes.

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## xunzi

sincity said:


> Major power can use their military might to bomb other nation without a justifiable cause then small nation in the possession of nuclear weapons can use nuclear threat to protect themselve from a warmonger powerful nation.


...And how does that contribute to protecting the earth from nuclear catastrophe? Do not forget with possession of nuclear weapon comes the responsibility to safeguard and maintain its deadly radioactive material. Do you trust small states ability to protect their nuke from terrorists or human error because of lack of security knowledge? Fact remains, small states acquiring nuke will only contribute to high risk of destroying earth. Like I said, big powers do not need nuclear weapon to defeat smaller states. 

Now for your naive brain, imagine Iraq actually have nuclear weapon. Do you think Iraq will use it to protect themselves from the US invasion and is that good for mankind and earth in general?

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## sincity

cnleio said:


> Today U.S, Russia, China Top3 have the most of nuclear weapons in this world (although China has much less than U.S and Russia),Top3 have whole kinds of nuclear weapon tech. It's stupid idea like u talked, transfer nuclear weapon tech to other small nations and forget how to play nuclear balance in the world.
> 
> Like America help Vietnam build nuke, Russia or China also can help South America build nukes. If we do that, today world rules must be changed coz the nuke will become some kind of conventional weapon used by many nations in next War, ppl will nuke others and others will re-nuke them. Can American survive when Nuke explode or under ?! It's no doubt the Nuke can crash any advanced hi-tech weapons used by American, Russia, China. Most citizens will die in Nuke War, and Super-power also will gone.
> 
> 
> The Ultimate Weapon can finish Super-power and destroy all human, coz there's no any place to avoid nuclear damage. Well i can image u will jump out if find out Cuba has nukes.


 


When there is a likelihood of dropping a bomb on any nation will lead to a nuclear war, the government in this world will think twice before they hastily want to start a war over some territorial dispute or over a false pretense for war. Nuclear is a great deterrance for war and war will definitely in the last resolve.



xunzi said:


> ...And how does that contribute to protecting the earth from nuclear catastrophe? Do not forget with possession of nuclear weapon comes the responsibility to safeguard and maintain its deadly radioactive material. Do you trust small states ability to protect their nuke from terrorists or human error because of lack of security knowledge? Fact remains, small states acquiring nuke will only contribute to high risk of destroying earth. Like I said, big powers do not need nuclear weapon to defeat smaller states.
> 
> Now for your naive brain, imagine Iraq actually have nuclear weapon. Do you think Iraq will use it to protect themselves from the US invasion and is that good for mankind and earth in general?


 


Look at the US started a war over false pretense and bombed Irag over for 8 yrs, do you think if Irag in possession of nuke, US would readily started a war against Irag over a lie?


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## cnleio

sincity said:


> When there is a likelihood of dropping a bomb on any nation will lead to a nuclear war, the government in this world will think twice before they hastily want to start a war over some territorial dispute or over a false pretense for war. Nuclear is a great deterrance for war and war will definitely in the last resolve.


At that time, when nuclear weapons spread in all over the world. Nuke == AK47, u just prepare for crying ~!

One hundred years to build up the Super-power, Nukes can destroy it within 10 minutes. Nobody or No nation can stop others to nuke each other, coz nuke u at all.

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## sincity

cnleio said:


> At that time, when nuclear weapons spread in all over the world. Nuke == AK47, u just prepare for crying~!


 


Nukes possess by few nations are as much as dangerous as nukes in possession with many nations. Equal nuke for all then there will be less of a chance nations start a war over presumptous reasons.


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## atatwolf

The worst thing China could do is join the loosers club a.k.a ex-soviet friends.

I'm crossing my fingers they will make this mistake. China will have the same fate of Soviet Union. Disintegration and domination.

Actually, Russia is less of a threat than China. We all know human rights abuses and crimes done by Chinicites.. The international community can turn a blind eye to Russia but China no mercy will be shown. Even Russia agrees with this premise if you read through their geopolitical strategy in Asia.

China will be completely on their own versus the world.


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## sweetgrape

Viet said:


> Vietnam is going to have 10 nuclear power plants that can produce plutonium for hundreds of nukes.


Hehe, I have nuclear power plants, so, we can make Nuke? can be more stupid?!


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## sincity

atatwolf said:


> The worst thing China could do is join the loosers club a.k.a ex-soviet friends.
> 
> I'm crossing my fingers they will make this mistake. China will have the same fate of Soviet Union. Disintegration and domination.
> 
> Actually, Russia is less of a threat than China. We all know human rights abuses and crimes done by Chinicites.. The international community can turn a blind eye to Russia but China no mercy will be shown. Even Russia agrees with this premise if you read through their geopolitical strategy in Asia.


 


How Russia is less a threat than China or how Turkey is less a threat than China, Turkey history commit atrocity and genocite against Armemians. Turkey is as much as a threat to world peace, Ottoman empire was disintegrated because the evil Mulsim ruler of the Turk.


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## cnleio

sincity said:


> Nukes possess by few nations are as much as dangerous as nukes in possession with many nations. Equal nuke for all then there will be less of a chance nations start a war over presumptous reasons.


Nonono... @sincity u still think too simple.
What about nuclear terrorism? If terrorist groups get nukes or some small nation transfer nuke tech to them, what u think ? For terrorists they do not need any consideration and thought, they can die for their belief to explode a nuke. If nuclear weapons or tech spread in the world, it's not hard to purchase nukes from poor military force, or some nuclear nation support terrorism.

What u think if Nuclear 9.11 coming ? Maybe many nation governments have the humanity to avoid using Nukes, but terrorists can explode everything in the city what they get the powerful without any hesitation. How many nuclear terrorists ur Department of Homeland Security can catch ?

I said again, when Nuke == AK47 all of us prepare for crying ~!


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## atatwolf

sincity said:


> How Russia is less a threat than China or how Turkey is less a threat than China, Turkey history commit atrocity and genocite against Armemians. Turkey is as much as a threat to world peace, Ottoman empire was disintegrated because the evil Mulsim ruler of the Turk.


It is matter of humanity. Turkey and Russia respects human life. China doesn't. Look at Uighur Turks and Tibetians. That is why all your neighbors are heavily militarized and especially Japan in the region won't allow shifting borders. Turkey is on Japanese side. China will live in the box it is appointed to since non of its neighbors are pushovers military wise. Russia victom neighbors are not militarized so Russia can capitlize on that plus Russia is not the same threat to humanity China is. It is not comparable and China won't get away with what Russia is doing. The region will become one front against China and you will loose what you already have stolen.


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## Huawei

atatwolf said:


> The worst thing China could do is join the loosers club a.k.a ex-soviet friends.
> 
> I'm crossing my fingers they will make this mistake. China will have the same fate of Soviet Union. Disintegration and domination.
> 
> Actually, Russia is less of a threat than China. We all know human rights abuses and crimes done by Chinicites.. The international community can turn a blind eye to Russia but China no mercy will be shown. Even Russia agrees with this premise if you read through their geopolitical strategy in Asia.
> 
> China will be completely on their own versus the world.



We have utterly murdered the snot out of the US military. We are under sanctions by the west but we are still here growing strong.

And no, we don't depend on the west for our economic growth. 

We prop up the US economy, without us the US would have gone the way of the Soviet Union. We control the fate of the US economy.

We certainly don't give a damn about what a Turk islamic extremists has to say.

Bottom line is within 20 years this will be our world, everyone else will just live in it.



atatwolf said:


> It is matter of humanity. Turkey and Russia respects human life. China doesn't. Look at Uighur Turks and Tibetians. That is why all your neighbors are heavily militarized and especially Japan in the region won't allow shifting borders. Turkey is on Japanese side. China will live in the box it is appointed to since non of its neighbors are pushovers military wise. Russia victom neighbors are not militarized so Russia can capitlize on that plus Russia is not the same threat to humanity China is. It is not comparable and China won't get away with what Russia is doing. The region will become one front against China and you will loose what you already have stolen.



Uighurs are terrorists. Tibetians are religious extremists. They are low class 'humans'. They don't deserve an ounce of respect from civilised Han Chinese.

Islamic terrorists are the biggest threat to world peace along with American fascism.


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## sincity

cnleio said:


> Nonono... @sincity u still think too simple.
> What about nuclear terrorism? If terrorist groups get nukes or some small nation transfer nuke tech to them, what u think ? For terrorists they do not need any consideration and thought, they can die for their belief to explode a nuke. If nuclear weapons or tech spread in the world, it's not hard to purchase nukes from poor military force, or some nuclear nation support terrorism.
> 
> What u think if Nuclear 9.11 coming ? Maybe many nation governments have the humanity to avoid using Nukes, but terrorists can explode everything in the city what they get the powerful without any hesitation.


 

Any nuclear nations nations will safeguard their nuclear weapons and prevent it to fall into the terrorist hand because no government want to destroy this world with a nuclear weapons so they can make couple millions dollars from the nukes sale. India and Pakistan both nuclear arm and both not a rich nation, why don't both nation sale their nuclear weapons to the terrorist to make some quick bucks?


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## cnleio

sincity said:


> Any nuclear nations nations will safeguard their nuclear weapons and prevent it to fall into the terrorist hand because no government want to destroy this world with a nuclear weapons so they can make couple millions dollars from the nukes sale. India and Pakistan both nuclear arm and both not a rich nation, why don't both nation sale their nuclear weapons to the terrorist to make some quick bucks?


How old r u ?
I suggest u ask ur parents how they feel 9.11 terrorist attack ? ask ur grand-pa how they feel last COLD WAR ? America can let Japanese to build Nukes first, then let's see what's going on ?


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## Viet

cnleio said:


> Not* weapon-level *nuclear materials, bro. Even weapon-level, u need tons.


we have enrichment facility, that can produce from low to high grade nuclear fuel. the new 10 nuclear power plants will produce ton of plutonium, good enough for hundreds of nukes.

don´t make the mistake and blackmail Vietnam with nukes!


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## sincity

cnleio said:


> How old r u ?
> I suggest u ask ur parents how they feel 9.11 terrorist attack ? ask ur grand-pa how they feel last COLD WAR ? American can let Japanese to build Nukes first, then let's see what's going on ?


 


Japan have the mean and capacity to arm themselve with nuclear weapon, cold war just a cold war, no major nuclear war between the US and Russia in the past or will ever be in the future. What do you need to know about the cold war? Both Russia and US posture and no action resolve in nuclear exchange. Just a nuclear threat between US and Soviet Union, just a threat.

You read too much into terrorist nuclear threat.


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## Viet

sweetgrape said:


> Hehe, I have nuclear power plants, so, we can make *Nuke*? can be more stupid?!


a backwater as N Korea can develop nukes. do you think Vietnam can´t?

back in 14 century, Vietnam was the second country after China in the world to adopt firearm. in the 15 century, Dai Viet troops won the wars against Ming China in the North, Champa in the South, Laos in the West. Our army reached as far as Burma.


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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The problem is that we are not interested in Pinoy or Viet's land.
> 
> China is more interested about Taiwan and Mongolia so far.


VN will join the Soviet union again . Times for Great Soviet union + Great Viet to bully China again 

Soviet bomber in Cam ranh base ready to bomb China to stone age

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## Pangu

atatwolf said:


> It is matter of humanity. Turkey and Russia respects human life. China doesn't. Look at Uighur Turks and Tibetians. That is why all your neighbors are heavily militarized and especially Japan in the region won't allow shifting borders. Turkey is on Japanese side. China will live in the box it is appointed to since non of its neighbors are pushovers military wise. Russia victom neighbors are not militarized so Russia can capitlize on that plus Russia is not the same threat to humanity China is. It is not comparable and China won't get away with what Russia is doing. The region will become one front against China and you will loose what you already have stolen.



Hey, care to explain what you people did to the Kurds? You call that "respects human life?" That really warms my heart.


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## atatwolf

Huawei said:


> We have utterly murdered the snot out of the US military. We are under sanctions by the west but we are still here growing strong.
> 
> And no, we don't depend on the west for our economic growth.
> 
> We prop up the US economy, without us the US would have gone the way of the Soviet Union. We control the fate of the US economy.
> 
> We certainly don't give a damn about what a Turk islamic extremists has to say.
> 
> Bottom line is within 20 years this will be our world, everyone else will just live in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Uighurs are terrorists. Tibetians are religious extremists. They are low class 'humans'. They don't deserve an ounce of respect from civilised Han Chinese.
> 
> Islamic terrorists are the biggest threat to world peace along with American fascism.


So who will be on your side? All your neighbors are armed to the teeth. You only need to spring the cord and the region will gang up on China with Japan as the head of the spear. If you want to keep your stolen regions you will live in the box you are appointed to otherwise I can see part of Chinese living under foreign flag. On long term they will assimilate into higher cultures. Nobody is on your side in the region or elsewhere in the region. Only bogus states like northkorea and Iran. I really hope China makes these mistakes. It will only accelerate action against China and humanization of Asia/solvation of minorities in occupied areas. Again China is not the same as Russia. China has bloody history behind herself which she is continuing to the present day. All the neighborhood will form one front to put the Chinicite back into the box(minus the current occupied regions) she belongs to.


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## Viet

sweetgrape said:


> ChineseTiger has said "does not care about reputation"? idiot!
> 
> America has bombed you idiotic vietnam, as to China, we are waiting for him, you idiot!


chinesedumb is as dumb as you.

better care of Japan, your eternal enemy. they can build hundreds if not thousands of nukes.



xunzi said:


> Wrong. The risk of major global catastrophe will be higher if everyone acquires nuke. The fact remains, major powers have nuke to prevent each other from mutual destruction and destruction to earth as a whole. Major powers do not need nuclear weapon to defeat smaller powers. They can do so conventionally. Now if small states have nuke, the possibility of using nuclear weapon will be exponentially higher because that is their only chance and that is dangerous to the world.
> 
> Therefore, NPT is design to block that movement. Big, medium, and small states all agree on that.


so how comes that some Chinese clowns here resort to nukes to threaten Vietnam, a non-nuclear state?


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## sweetgrape

Viet said:


> a backwater as N Korea can develop nukes. do you think Vietnam can´t?
> 
> back in 14 century, Vietnam was the second country after China in the world to adopt firearm. in the 15 century, Dai Viet troops won the wars against Ming China in the North, Champa in the South, Laos in the West. Our army reached as far as Burma.


Such a stupid logic, First learn how to build Nuke power plants with foreign help, or, make you own simple weapon, your self-confidence is based on ignorance, you know?



NiceGuy said:


> VN will join the Soviet union again . Times for Great Soviet union + Great Viet to bully China again
> 
> Soviet bomber in Cam ranh base ready to bomb China to stone age


Alarm, Idiot appear!





Viet said:


> chinesedumb is as dumb as you.
> 
> better care of Japan, your eternal enemy. they can build hundreds if not thousands of nukes.


idiot, hehe, who said we care you small viet? yeah, we care of Japan, we have prepared encough Nuke for the enemy, no need you remind us.


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## Jf Thunder

Raphael said:


> Annex the failppines? Gag me.


*gags you*


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## ChineseTiger1986

sincity said:


> All Viet Nam need are couple of nuclear weapons enough to check China aggression.



Even Vietnam acquiring the nuclear weapon is more symbolic than practical.

China can launch the pre-emptive strike to easily weed out its nuclear threat.

You can hype up the non-existential threat from NK, and do you think that China will ignore its little neighbors to acquire the nuclear weapons?

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## shuttler

China is China
We dont need to follow anyone's footsteps
Anyone who isolates us is for his own loss and only a very very very few risk to do that - not even turkey.
We have our own path of development!



atatwolf said:


> It is matter of humanity. Turkey and Russia respects human life. China doesn't. Look at Uighur Turks and Tibetians. That is why all your neighbors are heavily militarized and especially Japan in the region won't allow shifting borders. Turkey is on Japanese side. China will live in the box it is appointed to since non of its neighbors are pushovers military wise. Russia victom neighbors are not militarized so Russia can capitlize on that plus Russia is not the same threat to humanity China is. It is not comparable and China won't get away with what Russia is doing. The region will become one front against China and you will loose what you already have stolen.



you are such a loser, like indians mindsets:

Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/turkeys-human-rights-hypocrisy.html?_r=0
KurdishMedia.com: News about Kurds and Kurdistan

German Journalist Recalls Reporting Turkey’s Anti-Kurdish Atroci

Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lord Bryce's Report on Turkish Atrocities in Armenia | World War One | Lord Bryce

and you blatantly neglect these:
Kashmir: Hell in Paradise - An account of Indian atrocities against the people of Kashmir
Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and plenty more

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## shuttler

杀鸡焉用牛刀
I must say some of my fellow Chinese members here are exaggerating. They are too proud of our advanced weaponry arsenals

If we determine to use military force to recover what belong to us at SCS and elsewhere, our conventional power will be sufficed for the missions!


and for some delusionals who do not know what side of the fence that Turkey is sitting on

Turkey helped Syrian Terrorists to produce Sarin Gas and kill syrian children.

Where is Russia sitting?

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## ViXuyen

xunzi said:


> How do you build nuke if you don't have the blueprint nor the facility nor the technological capability to enriching uranium? And where are you getting the uranium to build one?


Uranium? Just the deposit in Quang Nam province already has 8000 tons and we are still tight lipped about what the rest of the country is holding.


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## Viet

ViXuyen said:


> Uranium? Just the deposit in Quang Nam province already has 8000 tons and we are still tight lipped about what the rest of the country is holding.


8,000t. that is nice. VN army needs some mighty deterrence.


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## xunzi

ViXuyen said:


> Uranium? Just the deposit in Quang Nam province already has 8000 tons and we are still tight lipped about what the rest of the country is holding.


But you don't have the technology to extract them.. Beside nobody in the world, certainly not the P5, will allow you to enrich high-grade uranium for nuclear weapon purpose. You will go down as another North Korea.



Viet said:


> so how comes that some Chinese clowns here resort to nukes to threaten Vietnam, a non-nuclear state?


We do not need nuclear weapon to defeat you but given the hypothetical scenario, we do possess the capability to turn your country back into the stone age. He is just saying the truth and fact remains fact.



sincity said:


> Look at the US started a war over false pretense and bombed Irag over for 8 yrs, do you think if Irag in possession of nuke, US would readily started a war against Irag over a lie?


Yes the US will still invade and bomb the living shit out of them because they do not possess 2nd strike capability. Unlike North Korea, Iraq do not have the backup of any P5 member so they are easily prey by the US.


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## xunzi

atatwolf said:


> The worst thing China could do is join the loosers club a.k.a ex-soviet friends.
> 
> I'm crossing my fingers they will make this mistake. China will have the same fate of Soviet Union. Disintegration and domination.
> 
> Actually, Russia is less of a threat than China. We all know human rights abuses and crimes done by Chinicites.. The international community can turn a blind eye to Russia but China no mercy will be shown. Even Russia agrees with this premise if you read through their geopolitical strategy in Asia.
> 
> China will be completely on their own versus the world.


Consider you are from a country that come out of a "chicken", should we take your words serious? LOLOLOL

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## eddieInUK

Russia is under a big pressure from the European side, far east may be their only choice.


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## Huawei

atatwolf said:


> So who will be on your side? All your neighbors are armed to the teeth. You only need to spring the cord and the region will gang up on China with Japan as the head of the spear. If you want to keep your stolen regions you will live in the box you are appointed to otherwise I can see part of Chinese living under foreign flag. On long term they will assimilate into higher cultures. Nobody is on your side in the region or elsewhere in the region. Only bogus states like northkorea and Iran. I really hope China makes these mistakes. It will only accelerate action against China and humanization of Asia/solvation of minorities in occupied areas. Again China is not the same as Russia. China has bloody history behind herself which she is continuing to the present day. All the neighborhood will form one front to put the Chinicite back into the box(minus the current occupied regions) she belongs to.



We crushed the US and 16 of their slaves in the Korean war when we were 100 times weaker than now.

Not even all of Asia combined is powerful enough to take on China.

We don't need anyone on our side. We fight solo and we win solo.

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## Oldman1

Huawei said:


> We crushed the US and 16 of their slaves in the Korean war when we were 100 times weaker than now.
> 
> Not even all of Asia combined is powerful enough to take on China.
> 
> We don't need anyone on our side. We fight solo and we win solo.



No you didn't. South Korea still exists. And you failed to take on Vietnam by yourself.

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## Pangu

Oldman1 said:


> No you didn't. South Korea still exists. And you failed to take on Vietnam by yourself.



Well, China can also argue N.K. still exist which the US failed to conqur, & Vietnam did kicked US butt. Not to mention Iraq & Afganistan, another 2 failed US military enterprise despite your allies helping you.

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## Luftwaffe

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Even Vietnam acquiring the nuclear weapon is more symbolic than practical.
> 
> China can launch the pre-emptive strike to easily weed out its nuclear threat.
> 
> You can hype up the non-existential threat from NK, and do you think that China will ignore its little neighbors to acquire the nuclear weapons?



2 mins over Baghdad...Chinese version...vietnam can never build a nuclear reactor for the purpose of making bomb the minute they start construction China will bring it down under all legal pretext neither vietnam nor russia can do anything.

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## Huawei

Oldman1 said:


> No you didn't. South Korea still exists. And you failed to take on Vietnam by yourself.



Yup. We did.

We liberated North Korea. Before we entered the war, North Korea was under US occupation and at the end of the war, North Korea was liberated by us. That's called an overwhelming victory for China over the US. Not a shadow of a doubt about it.

We crushed Vietnam in 1974, 1979 an 1988.

You got whipped by Vietnam the only time you faced them.

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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> But you don't have the technology to extract them.. Beside nobody in the world, certainly not the P5, will allow you to enrich high-grade uranium for nuclear weapon purpose. You will go down as another North Korea.
> 
> 
> We do not need nuclear weapon to defeat you but given the hypothetical scenario, we do possess the capability to turn your country back into the stone age. He is just saying the truth and fact remains fact.
> 
> 
> Yes the US will still invade and bomb the living shit out of them because they do not possess 2nd strike capability. Unlike North Korea, Iraq do not have the backup of any P5 member so they are easily prey by the US.



when china become a mad man, P2 US , Russia, and Japan will help us to make nuke as fast as possible. So why US let us to use USA technology for entrichten atom material to be use in nukepower plant in Vietnam.



Huawei said:


> Yup. We did.
> 
> We liberated North Korea. Before we entered the war, North Korea was under US occupation and at the end of the war, North Korea was liberated by us. That's called an overwhelming victory for China over the US. Not a shadow of a doubt about it.
> 
> We crushed Vietnam in 1974, 1979 an 1988.
> 
> You got whipped by Vietnam the only time you faced them.



It showed that China is enemy of Vietnam. China is big boy but bad boy.

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## Krueger

Stephen Blank 
April 7, 2014







Justified emphasis on the current Ukraine crisis should not lead us to make the mistake of overlooking Russia’s policies in East Asia. Normally Russia’s policies in Southeast Asia do not get much attention. But they reveal important motifs and themes in Russia’s overall foreign policy and its response to China’s rising power and to trends in Asian security. Examination of those policies reveals much about Russian policy in Asia and in general. In particular they demonstrate Moscow’s quest for total independence and tactical flexibility as well as its habitual reliance on energy and arms sales in strife-torn areas as the instruments by which it seeks to gain leverage on regional security agendas. Moreover, they also demonstrate that like other powers, *Russia is pursuing what may be called a hedging strategy against China in Asia. On the one hand it supports China against the US and on the other works to constrain Chinese power in Asia.*

Southeast Asia’s importance to Russia has steadily risen due to Russia’s own pivot to Asia._ As part of that pivot, Moscow recently proclaimed its intention to pursue negotiations for naval bases in the Seychelles and Singapore.[ii] This is on top of Russia’s previously overt efforts to attain basing at Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam.[iii] Not surprisingly, these moves will not be welcome in China and they may be seen as representing (along with Moscow’s parallel rapprochement with Japan) Russia’s response to Chinese President Xi Jinping’s recent invitation to join China “in guaranteeing security and stability in the Asia-Pacific Region.”[iv] In other words, even as Russo-Chinese cooperation against US power, interests and values continues on global issues and in areas of unimportance to China like Syria, Russia strives for geopolitical independence in Asia. Were Moscow to accept Xi’s offer, it would be admitting that it has become China’s “junior brother” in Asia; a role that Russia bridles at accepting.

*Therefore Moscow is making these “chess moves” to Southeast Asia to demonstrate its true independence and great power status*. While those attributes of Russia’ standing in Asia are debatable, there is no doubt that Vietnam, for one, has fully embraced Russia in an effort to get allies to restrain China even as it continues on its own accord to pursue a diplomatic resolution of outstanding issues with China. Indeed, Vietnam’s partnerships with Moscow and Washington strengthen its leverage vis-à-vis Beijing, thereby enabling it to pursue both military and economic enhancement and diplomatic resolution of disputed issues. Thus, despite the allegedly deepening Sino-Russian friendship (at least against the US),* in fact Russia has quietly but openly resisted Chinese encroachments in Southeast Asia and is forging a deeper military-political relationship with Vietnam.*

Beijing has repeatedly demanded that Moscow terminate energy explorations in the South China Sea, clearly responding to Russia’s visibly enhanced interests in Southeast Asia.* In 2012 Russia announced its interest in regaining a naval base at Cam Ranh Bay, a step probably connected to joint Russo-Vietnamese energy projects off Vietnam’s coast, and a means of checking China in the South China Sea*. Gazprom also signed a deal to explore two licensed blocks in Vietnam’s continental shelf in the South China Sea, taking a 49 percent stake in the offshore blocks, which hold an estimated 1.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and more than twenty-five million tons of gas condensate. Those actions precipitated Beijing’s demand that Moscow leave the area. However, despite its silence, presumably to avoid antagonizing China, Moscow stayed put. Russia has subsequently increased support for Vietnam regarding energy exploration in the South China Sea and, perhaps more ominously from China’s standpoint, in arms sales and defense cooperation.[v]

Vietnam, clearly aiming to deter Chinese threats, has become a major customer for Russian weapons, primarily submarines and planes. Russia and Vietnam have been “strategic partners” since 2001 and they upgraded the relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership in 2012.[vi] Bilateral trade and scientific-cultural exchanges are growing and Russia ranks 18th among 101 foreign investors in Vietnam focusing on mining, processing, and manufacturing industries (particularly energy). In addition, Russia is helping Vietnam build a nuclear power plant.[vii]

The most striking and consequential forms of cooperation are in the military sphere. Vietnam’s defense minister, General Phung Quang Thanh, called Russia “Vietnam’s primary strategic military partner in the sphere of military and technical cooperation.”[viii] Beyond Russia’s interest in Cam Ranh Bay, Russia is helping Vietnam build a submarine base and repair dockyard to provide maintenance support for other naval platforms. The submarine base will host the Kilo-class subs that Vietnam has bought from Russia to protect Vietnamese interests in the South China Sea.[ix] More recently, both sides have begun discussing a document allowing for regular Russian port visits to Vietnam for maintenance and rest and relaxation, although Cam Ranh Bay will not become a Russian base.[x]

Vietnam and Russia announced a third tranche of the sale of twelve new SU-30MK2 fighter aircraft that can target ships, aerial and ground targets. Vietnam has also ordered six newVarshavyanka-class submarines that represent an improvement on its existing Kilo-class submarines and which can conduct anti-submarine, anti-ship, general reconnaissance, and patrol missions in relatively shallow waters like the South China Sea.[xi] These sales display Vietnam’s defense modernization to defend against threats to its offshore energy interests, defend Vietnamese claims in the South China Sea, and deter growing Chinese aggressiveness. In these respects, it is emulating other Southeast Asian states’ defense-modernization programs to defend against new threats.[xii]

Perhaps the most striking aspect of these recent arms sales and ministerial talks between both states’ defense ministers is the fact that Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev approved a draft Russo-Vietnamese military cooperation pact to formalize the two governments’ defense cooperation. Medvedev’s approval orders the Russian Ministry of Defense to discuss the planned accord with the Vietnamese government and authorizes the Russian ministry to sign the agreement on Russia’s behalf. The planned accord would stipulate exchanges of opinions and information, confidence-building measures, and cooperation to enhance international security and ensure more effective action against terrorism and better arms control.[xiii] And, of course, allegedly nothing in the bilateral relationship is intended to target a third country.[xiv]

However, it is clear that this relationship, whose high points are the new agreement and these arms sales, aims to counter China’s aggressive intentions and behavior in the South China Sea. It is noteworthy that most of these announcements come from the Vietnamese side that clearly has every reason to display publicly to China its ability to garner support for its military buildup and political resistance to Chinese claims. Thus Vietnam not only enjoys strong U.S., Russian, and Indian diplomatic and military support, it is buying weapons from Russia, Sweden, and Israel, among others. Indeed, to strengthen its C4ISR capabilities, Vietnam is also investing in powerful foreign C4ISR systems and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to protect its offshore interests and installations.[xv]

*Vietnam’s efforts to weave together a series of partnerships to counter Chinese power are probably not surprising. There are ample precedents for Vietnam’s activity. But Russia’s activities clearly surprised and even dismayed China. Perhaps China should not have been surprised as those policies are clearly part of Moscow’s overall “pivot” to Asia that actually preceded the US “rebalancing” program in Asia and aims to invigorate Moscow’s economic-military-political position as an independent major Asian power in its own right.* Indeed, Russia’s moves in the Pacific visibly confirm Edward Luttwak’s observation that given the logic of strategy, China’s increasingly aggressive policies will lead its neighbors and other Asian states, including Russia, to find new ways of collaborating together to check Beijing’s policies.[xvi] Still, China is clearly not happy with the Kremlin’s policies. In 2012, its media called them “unrighteous” and warned Russia that it prefers cooperation with “ill-doers” over cooperation with China, though it professes an identity of interests with Beijing. Chinese media stressed that Russo-Vietnamese military and energy cooperation allows Vietnam to extend energy exploration into contested areas. These articles even charged that Vietnam depends on this cooperation with Russia, so in some sense Russia is culpable. China also correctly accused Russia at that time of seeking a return to Cam Ranh Bay.[xvii] Thus Russia’s “chess moves” suggest that Sino-Russian amity, at least in regard to the Asian regional security agenda, is something of a facade. [xviii]

If this is indeed the case, Russo-Chinese ties may not be as dangerous for the US as some have feared, although there is no reason for complacency since the two governments will clearly collude to block numerous American initiatives globally. But in Asia, we might see added jockeying and competition for support and influence by both major actors like Russia and China and by increasingly capable middle powers like Vietnam that can only add a further dimension of complexity to Asia’s already tangled and complex security agendas.

Stephen Blank is Senior Fellow for Russia at the American Foreign Policy Council in Washington, DC

Russia and Vietnam Team Up to Balance China_

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## BDforever

Krueger said:


> Stephen Blank
> April 7, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justified emphasis on the current Ukraine crisis should not lead us to make the mistake of overlooking Russia’s policies in East Asia. Normally Russia’s policies in Southeast Asia do not get much attention. But they reveal important motifs and themes in Russia’s overall foreign policy and its response to China’s rising power and to trends in Asian security. Examination of those policies reveals much about Russian policy in Asia and in general. In particular they demonstrate Moscow’s quest for total independence and tactical flexibility as well as its habitual reliance on energy and arms sales in strife-torn areas as the instruments by which it seeks to gain leverage on regional security agendas. Moreover, they also demonstrate that like other powers, *Russia is pursuing what may be called a hedging strategy against China in Asia. On the one hand it supports China against the US and on the other works to constrain Chinese power in Asia.*
> 
> Southeast Asia’s importance to Russia has steadily risen due to Russia’s own pivot to Asia._ As part of that pivot, Moscow recently proclaimed its intention to pursue negotiations for naval bases in the Seychelles and Singapore.[ii] This is on top of Russia’s previously overt efforts to attain basing at Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam.[iii] Not surprisingly, these moves will not be welcome in China and they may be seen as representing (along with Moscow’s parallel rapprochement with Japan) Russia’s response to Chinese President Xi Jinping’s recent invitation to join China “in guaranteeing security and stability in the Asia-Pacific Region.”[iv] In other words, even as Russo-Chinese cooperation against US power, interests and values continues on global issues and in areas of unimportance to China like Syria, Russia strives for geopolitical independence in Asia. Were Moscow to accept Xi’s offer, it would be admitting that it has become China’s “junior brother” in Asia; a role that Russia bridles at accepting.
> 
> *Therefore Moscow is making these “chess moves” to Southeast Asia to demonstrate its true independence and great power status*. While those attributes of Russia’ standing in Asia are debatable, there is no doubt that Vietnam, for one, has fully embraced Russia in an effort to get allies to restrain China even as it continues on its own accord to pursue a diplomatic resolution of outstanding issues with China. Indeed, Vietnam’s partnerships with Moscow and Washington strengthen its leverage vis-à-vis Beijing, thereby enabling it to pursue both military and economic enhancement and diplomatic resolution of disputed issues. Thus, despite the allegedly deepening Sino-Russian friendship (at least against the US),* in fact Russia has quietly but openly resisted Chinese encroachments in Southeast Asia and is forging a deeper military-political relationship with Vietnam.*
> 
> Beijing has repeatedly demanded that Moscow terminate energy explorations in the South China Sea, clearly responding to Russia’s visibly enhanced interests in Southeast Asia.* In 2012 Russia announced its interest in regaining a naval base at Cam Ranh Bay, a step probably connected to joint Russo-Vietnamese energy projects off Vietnam’s coast, and a means of checking China in the South China Sea*. Gazprom also signed a deal to explore two licensed blocks in Vietnam’s continental shelf in the South China Sea, taking a 49 percent stake in the offshore blocks, which hold an estimated 1.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and more than twenty-five million tons of gas condensate. Those actions precipitated Beijing’s demand that Moscow leave the area. However, despite its silence, presumably to avoid antagonizing China, Moscow stayed put. Russia has subsequently increased support for Vietnam regarding energy exploration in the South China Sea and, perhaps more ominously from China’s standpoint, in arms sales and defense cooperation.[v]
> 
> Vietnam, clearly aiming to deter Chinese threats, has become a major customer for Russian weapons, primarily submarines and planes. Russia and Vietnam have been “strategic partners” since 2001 and they upgraded the relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership in 2012.[vi] Bilateral trade and scientific-cultural exchanges are growing and Russia ranks 18th among 101 foreign investors in Vietnam focusing on mining, processing, and manufacturing industries (particularly energy). In addition, Russia is helping Vietnam build a nuclear power plant.[vii]
> 
> The most striking and consequential forms of cooperation are in the military sphere. Vietnam’s defense minister, General Phung Quang Thanh, called Russia “Vietnam’s primary strategic military partner in the sphere of military and technical cooperation.”[viii] Beyond Russia’s interest in Cam Ranh Bay, Russia is helping Vietnam build a submarine base and repair dockyard to provide maintenance support for other naval platforms. The submarine base will host the Kilo-class subs that Vietnam has bought from Russia to protect Vietnamese interests in the South China Sea.[ix] More recently, both sides have begun discussing a document allowing for regular Russian port visits to Vietnam for maintenance and rest and relaxation, although Cam Ranh Bay will not become a Russian base.[x]
> 
> Vietnam and Russia announced a third tranche of the sale of twelve new SU-30MK2 fighter aircraft that can target ships, aerial and ground targets. Vietnam has also ordered six newVarshavyanka-class submarines that represent an improvement on its existing Kilo-class submarines and which can conduct anti-submarine, anti-ship, general reconnaissance, and patrol missions in relatively shallow waters like the South China Sea.[xi] These sales display Vietnam’s defense modernization to defend against threats to its offshore energy interests, defend Vietnamese claims in the South China Sea, and deter growing Chinese aggressiveness. In these respects, it is emulating other Southeast Asian states’ defense-modernization programs to defend against new threats.[xii]
> 
> Perhaps the most striking aspect of these recent arms sales and ministerial talks between both states’ defense ministers is the fact that Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev approved a draft Russo-Vietnamese military cooperation pact to formalize the two governments’ defense cooperation. Medvedev’s approval orders the Russian Ministry of Defense to discuss the planned accord with the Vietnamese government and authorizes the Russian ministry to sign the agreement on Russia’s behalf. The planned accord would stipulate exchanges of opinions and information, confidence-building measures, and cooperation to enhance international security and ensure more effective action against terrorism and better arms control.[xiii] And, of course, allegedly nothing in the bilateral relationship is intended to target a third country.[xiv]
> 
> However, it is clear that this relationship, whose high points are the new agreement and these arms sales, aims to counter China’s aggressive intentions and behavior in the South China Sea. It is noteworthy that most of these announcements come from the Vietnamese side that clearly has every reason to display publicly to China its ability to garner support for its military buildup and political resistance to Chinese claims. Thus Vietnam not only enjoys strong U.S., Russian, and Indian diplomatic and military support, it is buying weapons from Russia, Sweden, and Israel, among others. Indeed, to strengthen its C4ISR capabilities, Vietnam is also investing in powerful foreign C4ISR systems and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to protect its offshore interests and installations.[xv]
> 
> *Vietnam’s efforts to weave together a series of partnerships to counter Chinese power are probably not surprising. There are ample precedents for Vietnam’s activity. But Russia’s activities clearly surprised and even dismayed China. Perhaps China should not have been surprised as those policies are clearly part of Moscow’s overall “pivot” to Asia that actually preceded the US “rebalancing” program in Asia and aims to invigorate Moscow’s economic-military-political position as an independent major Asian power in its own right.* Indeed, Russia’s moves in the Pacific visibly confirm Edward Luttwak’s observation that given the logic of strategy, China’s increasingly aggressive policies will lead its neighbors and other Asian states, including Russia, to find new ways of collaborating together to check Beijing’s policies.[xvi] Still, China is clearly not happy with the Kremlin’s policies. In 2012, its media called them “unrighteous” and warned Russia that it prefers cooperation with “ill-doers” over cooperation with China, though it professes an identity of interests with Beijing. Chinese media stressed that Russo-Vietnamese military and energy cooperation allows Vietnam to extend energy exploration into contested areas. These articles even charged that Vietnam depends on this cooperation with Russia, so in some sense Russia is culpable. China also correctly accused Russia at that time of seeking a return to Cam Ranh Bay.[xvii] Thus Russia’s “chess moves” suggest that Sino-Russian amity, at least in regard to the Asian regional security agenda, is something of a facade. [xviii]
> 
> If this is indeed the case, Russo-Chinese ties may not be as dangerous for the US as some have feared, although there is no reason for complacency since the two governments will clearly collude to block numerous American initiatives globally. But in Asia, we might see added jockeying and competition for support and influence by both major actors like Russia and China and by increasingly capable middle powers like Vietnam that can only add a further dimension of complexity to Asia’s already tangled and complex security agendas.
> 
> 
> Stephen Blank is Senior Fellow for Russia at the American Foreign Policy Council in Washington, DC
> 
> Russia and Vietnam Team Up to Balance China_


Russia is not teaming up against China, rather it is now going for aggressive foreign policy. Russia kept itself isolated in foreign affairs, now it is going to break the status. the headline is pure wet dream of USA and west but reality is future alliance is going to form between China, Russia, India and some extend with Pakistan. Now Brace yourself

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## ViXuyen

Luftwaffe said:


> 2 mins over Baghdad...Chinese version...vietnam can never build a nuclear reactor for the purpose of making bomb the minute they start construction China will bring it down under all legal pretext neither vietnam nor russia can do anything.


Coming from a think tank

If Vietnam wants to build a reactor for weapon purpose, do you believe you would know such a reactor even exists? If you somehow able to find out that there is a reactor for such a purpose, would you believe you can find it? 

Way too late, my friend.

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## Viet

Russia has its own agenda in Asia. Only delusional Chinese assume they are a friend of Russia.

from the beginning, the Soviets or later Russians have always been on Vietnam side, notably in the support of Vietnam in the struggle against the French, America and China.

the Soviets supported Vietnam in the military campaign against Pol Pot Cambodia. Russia supports Vietnam stance in the SC Sea. Their companies explore oil and gas with Vietnamese counterparts as well as provide weapons and technologies to Vietnam to counter China.

Putin is a friend of Vietnam. He never cares of the many warnings of the Chinese. Putin wants Russia to again become a superpower, challenging America and China hegemony in Asia. If it comes to whom to trust the Russians trust the Japanese more than the Chinese. Putin rejects Chinese demand to leave Asia. He even rejects Chinese idea to support them in the dispute against Japan.

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## rcrmj

in the world stage you need a partner who can get things done and has strong economical, technological and political power```well, as it goes, there is no permanent friend but permanent interests```

anyhow, a monkey is good for nothing but entertainment during ease time..

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## Viet

rcrmj said:


> in the world stage you need a partner who can get things done and has strong economical, technological and political power```well, as it goes, there is no permanent friend but permanent interests```
> 
> anyhow, a monkey is good for nothing but entertainment during ease time..


Russia sees China as a clown good for entertainment. that is a fact.

Russia dictates the terms in the world, for instance in Syria, Iran, Afghanistan and elsewhere. where is China? your stance is non-interference, virtually abstinence. Putin cites China as supporter in the Crimea case as he needs China to share the pain, while he keeps the booty. You are just too stupid to understand.

fact remains, you don´t even have any influence on N Korea. The fat Kim testes nukes next at your door step as he pleases.

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## Pangu

China has no illusions about Russia. We are strategic partners not bed fellows. That's why we have been building our economy & military in earnest with lots or tech. acquisition & research. vietnma will serve as a pawn in the Great Game, either by the US or Russia, either way it doesn't matter.

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## Viet

BDforever said:


> Russia is not teaming up against China, rather it is now going for aggressive foreign policy. Russia kept itself isolated in foreign affairs, now it is going to break the status. the headline is pure wet dream of USA and west but reality is future alliance is going to form between China, Russia, India and some extend with Pakistan. Now Brace yourself


you know too little about Russia.

Russia itself has the potential to return to the status of a superpower. It teams up with others as you name it if they fit in Russia global interests. the Russians are more imperialistic than the Chinese. India only plays a minor role on world stage.

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## Edison Chen

Vietnam so bad so poor, seeking protection everywhere, from Russia, Japan or even India, but no country takes you for consideration seriously, it's all Viets delusion and wet dream, it's like masturbation.



Viet said:


> you know too little about Russia.
> 
> Russia itself *has the potential to return to the status of a superpower.* It teams up with others as you name it if they fit in Russia global interests. the Russians are more imperialistic than the Chinese. India only plays a minor role on world stage.



If they can, they already did.


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## BDforever

Viet said:


> you know too little about Russia.
> 
> Russia itself has the potential to return to the status of a superpower. It teams up with others as you name it if they fit in Russia global interests. the Russians are more imperialistic than the Chinese. India only plays a minor role on world stage.


I know very well about Russia and world history and keep china apart, you can not compare it with others, it never played imperialism. Talking about India ? well even china does not talk much in global stage, both of them are silent players. And I talked about Future, read it again


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## Srinivas

BDforever said:


> Russia is not teaming up against China, rather it is now going for aggressive foreign policy. Russia kept itself isolated in foreign affairs, now it is going to break the status. the headline is pure wet dream of USA and west but reality is future alliance is going to form between China, Russia, India and some extend with Pakistan. Now Brace yourself



Things on the ground are different these days!!

Russia is against West but certainly it do not want to loose its far east territories to resource hungry China. India and Russia has common grounds regarding strategic partnership and alliance.

China ruled by CCP is a problem to its neighbors .... may a democratic China will help for the cause of East against West.

A bunch of 200 odd CCP leaders who has accumulated Billions of dollars of personal wealth in the last decade and are trying to stamp their hegemony are a problem for all.


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## BDforever

Srinivas said:


> Things on the ground are different these days!!
> 
> Russia is against West but certainly it do not want to loose its far east territories to resource hungry China. India and Russia has common grounds regarding strategic partnership and alliance.
> 
> China ruled by CCP is a problem to its neighbors .... may a democratic China will help for the cause of East against West.
> 
> A bunch of 200 odd CCP leaders who has accumulated Billions of dollars of personal wealth in the last decade and are trying to stamp their hegemony are a problem for all.


democracy is not the solution, may be CCP is best for China. China is not a threat, never been. The showcase in South China sea is because of huge presence of US troops, it does not want US and its alliance close to it


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## Viet

xudeen said:


> China has no illusions about Russia. We are strategic partners not bed fellows. That's why we have been building our economy & military in earnest with lots or tech. acquisition & research. vietnma will serve as a *pawn *in the Great Game, either by the US or Russia, either way it doesn't matter.


ha ha ha...who is a pawn?

Vietnam controls Laos and Cambodia via "friendship treaty". Via other organisations such as ASEAN and Mekong pact we have more political and eonomics influence in SE Asia than China. plus, Vietnam establishes strategic relationships with the great and middle powers (P5 plus Germany), balancing between them to get the most benefits.

in the global politics, national interests matter more than a friendship. Russia is potentially more an enemy to China than a friend, should it come to a regional conflict in Asia.



BDforever said:


> I know very well about *Russia *and world history and keep china apart, you can not compare it with others, it never played imperialism. Talking about India ? well even china does not talk much in global stage, both of them are silent players. And I talked about Future, read it again


again, the Western takes imperial Russia seriously on world stage, while China is seen as a regional bully, a hooligan of Asia. sure, China will play a bigger role in the future, but mostly in the economics. Chinese have neither the will nor capacity to play politics on world stage. They are too sino centric. the legacy of mindset of being a Middle Kingdom. I don´t blame them.

you can notice reactions of some delusional Chinese posters here: copy Russia and annex Mongolia, Phillipines or Vietnam.

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## Viet

BDforever said:


> democracy is not the solution, may be CCP is best for China. *China is not a threat, never been.* The showcase in South China sea is because of huge presence of US troops, it does not want US and its alliance close to it


China raged wars against Vietnam. CCP claims the SC Sea as theirs, virtually takes others the livelihood. they bully Vietnam and others at daily basis, and you say China is not a threat?

I believe you are delusional, too.

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## Pangu

Viet said:


> nd eonomics influence in SE Asia than China. plus, Vietnam establishes strategic relationships with the great and middle powers (P5 plus Germany), bal





Viet said:


> ha ha ha...who is a pawn?
> 
> Vietnam controls Laos and Cambodia via "friendship treaty". Via other organisations such as ASEAN and Mekong pact we have more political and eonomics influence in SE Asia than China. plus, Vietnam establishes strategic relationships with the great and middle powers (P5 plus Germany), balancing between them to get the most benefits.
> 
> in the global politics, national interests matter more than a friendship. Russia is potentially more an enemy to China than a friend, should it come to a regional conflict in Asia.




You must have forgotten how Cambodia saboatge the ASEAN summit, which was to be used by viet & pinoy on the SCS issue against China? Do you even know what happen in that event? How ministers of ASEAN countries were trying to "get the hell outta here" before viet & pinoys could even speak a word? Research on this subject then you'll see who's your so called friends. 

You are so right about national interest primacy over friendship fallacy. Which is precisely the point I've made - Russia or the US will use viet against China, not because they are your friend, but you serve a purpose. Case in point - USSR used viet during the vietnam war against the US, without Soviet spilling a drop of blood. Agent orange should remind you of those faithful years

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## NiceGuy

Russia will help VN to unite Sub-Mekong region. After successfully united the region, VN will get bigger and stronger, then, both Great Russia and Great Viet will sandwich China and treat China as a cheap clown in Asia.

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## Srinivas

BDforever said:


> democracy is not the solution, may be CCP is best for China. China is not a threat, never been. The showcase in South China sea is because of huge presence of US troops, it does not want US and its alliance close to it



CCP is for pure Hegemony!!

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## xunzi

The Vietnamese are some of the most naive people in the world. Back during the Vietnam war, Soviet did not want to intervene directly and was force to go through us to support the VN war against America. Then when we split with the Soviet, we dare the Soviet to attack us over us attacking their puppet ally, Vietnam. What happen? The Soviet didn't attack despite having defense treaty with Vietnam at the time. Fact remains, Russia is only using the little Vietnam to check us. We already know that. We use the West the same way. The key here is Russia will not directly fight military with us over Vietnam. They never try that during our weakest point in 1960s-1990s. Don't expect Russia to do that now. Soviet-VN relation were much tighter back then than today.

Now due to our non-interference foreign policy, we do not care who ally with whom as long as there is no specific target from any alliance. This actually fulfill our agenda which is to create a multipolarity. Russia-alliance, West alliance, and soon there will be China-alliance in the 21st century. We will not propose a China-alliance until we are ready military and economically stable. Look for us to propose a China-PAK alliance which will included some members in the Middle-east, South Asia, Africa, and Central America. We have been nurturing African states and Central America states for this very reason, a potential future alliance.


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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> when china become a mad man, P2 US , Russia, and Japan will help us to make nuke as fast as possible. So why US let us to use USA technology for entrichten atom material to be use in nukepower plant in Vietnam.
> 
> It showed that China is enemy of Vietnam. China is big boy but bad boy.


Keep dreaming, my Vietnamese friend. LOL The ONE thing the P5 have common agenda and that is they want to preserve their power by keeping others from gaining nuclear weapon. I feel sorry for you Vietnamese being a pawn in this great power game. Last but not least as I said many times, you are not allow to enrich high-grade uranium. The moment you enrich more than 10%, you will set a red flag and you will be a dog in the war against P5's agenda. Good luck fighting against the P5. LOL

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## Viet

xudeen said:


> You must have forgotten how Cambodia saboatge the ASEAN summit, which was to be used by viet & pinoy on the SCS issue against China? Do you even know what happen in that event? How ministers of ASEAN countries were trying to "get the hell outta here" before viet & pinoys could even speak a word? Research on this subject then you'll see who's your so called friends.
> 
> You are so right about national interest primacy over friendship fallacy. Which is precisely the point I've made - Russia or the US will use viet against China, not because they are your friend, but you serve a purpose. Case in point - USSR used viet during the vietnam war against the US, without Soviet spilling a drop of blood. Agent orange should remind you of those faithful years


the episode you mentioned with Cambodia/ASEAN was just a minor issue. Don´t overstate one single event. fact remains, at the end of the day, Cambodia supports Vietnam/Philippines stance. So China has no choice and agreed to negotiate over the new code of conduct.

you should not forget during the China-Vietnam war in the 1979, the Soviets mobilized 600,000 strong army for the invasion of China, equipped with over 400 short and medium range nuke missiles, all for Chinese cities. You should be thankful that the war had not escalated. Otherwise things would get very ugly.


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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> *Vietnam *so bad so poor, seeking protection everywhere, from Russia, Japan or even India, but no country takes you for consideration seriously, it's all Viets delusion and wet dream, it's like masturbation.
> If they can, they already did.


Russia needs time to return to the former status of superpower.
as for Vietnam, we need more time, too to return to the former status: Master of SE Asia

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## NiceGuy

xunzi said:


> The Vietnamese are some of the most naive people in the world. Back during the Vietnam war, Soviet did not want to intervene directly and was force to go through us to support the VN war against America. Then when we split with the Soviet, we dare the Soviet to attack us over us attacking their puppet ally, Vietnam. What happen? The Soviet didn't attack despite having defense treaty with Vietnam at the time. Fact remains, Russia is only using the little Vietnam to check us. We already know that. We use the West the same way. The key here is Russia will not directly fight military with us over Vietnam. They never try that during our weakest point in 1960s-1990s. Don't expect Russia to do that now. Soviet-VN relation were much tighter back then than today.
> .


We didnt need Russia army when fighting against US, so why we need Russia troops to fight against a much weaker and backward enemy like PLA in 1979 ???


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## KAL-EL

NiceGuy said:


> Russia will help VN to unite Sub-Mekong region. After successfully united the region, VN will get bigger and stronger, then, both Great Russia and Great Viet will sandwich China and treat China as a cheap clown in Asia.



You really think this will happen? I give you credit! No matter what happens, no one can say you're not an optimist


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## Pangu

Viet said:


> Russia needs time to return to the former status of superpower.
> as for Vietnam, we need more time, too to return to the former status: Master of SE Asia



Lets see if the Thais, Khmer & Indonesians will agree 


Viet said:


> the episode you mentioned with Cambodia/ASEAN was just a minor issue. Don´t overstate one single event. fact remains, at the end of the day, Cambodia supports Vietnam/Philippines stance. So China has no choice and agreed to negotiate over the new code of conduct.
> 
> you should not forget during the China-Vietnam war in the 1979, the Soviets mobilized 600,000 strong army for the invasion of China, equipped with over 400 short and medium range nuke missiles, all for Chinese cities. You should be thankful that the war had not escalated. Otherwise things would get very ugly.



C'mon now, we all know how much Khmer hates viets  they certainly did not forget how viets invaded & occupy their country & installed a puppet gov., Ask Khmer what they thought of your K5 Planning in the 1980. Oh, don't forget how you invaded neighboring Laos. 

Now if you really think USSR posturing is going to nuke China over you guys, then sweet dreams, one can only fantasies

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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> Russia needs time to return to the former status of superpower.
> as for Vietnam, we need more time, too to return to the former status: Master of SE Asia



If they can, they already did. 

For Vietnam, it's impossible. All SE Asian original people are too lazy, really, that's why Chinese in south east Asia are much richer than you. You even can't beat local Chinese, even come here to talk about the Master of SE Asia?? Nice joke, bro.

Just look at those SE Asian countries. Phillipines, their men are fucking lazy, their women are doing the job as servant, they never feel ashamed. Then look at Thailand, shemale culture is the mainstream of that country, what a sick country! Don't know much about Indonesia. Vietnam is a little better than them, because Vietnam was once under East Asian cultural sphere, that's why Vietnam is more successful than shithole Phllipines. But you still can't really become the leader of SE Asia.

You may feel unpleasant about what I said, but that's the general opinion of Chinese about them.


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## NiceGuy

KAL-EL said:


> You really think this will happen? I give you credit! No matter what happens, no one can say you're not an optimist


Yeah, unite sub-Mekong region to get bigger and stronger is a must . Thats why Soviet supported VN to attack Thailand and occupied its hills in 1979, but we failed due to the war with China in the north border and US sanction.


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## xunzi

NiceGuy said:


> We didnt need Russia army when fighting against US, so why we need Russia troops to fight against a much weaker and backward enemy like PLA in 1979 ???


LOL! Without our support and Soviet, you are dead meat. Stop lying. The reason the US didn't invade the North was because of our warning. This allow you Vietcong to actually retreat, recuperate, and continue to attack. Without this immense support by us, you are nothing but another Iraq.


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## NiceGuy

xunzi said:


> Keep dreaming, my Vietnamese friend. LOL The ONE thing the P5 have common agenda and that is they want to preserve their power by keeping others from gaining nuclear weapon. I feel sorry for you Vietnamese being a pawn in this great power game. Last but not least as I said many times, you are not allow to enrich high-grade uranium. The moment you enrich more than 10%, you will set a red flag and you will be a dog in the war against P5's agenda. Good luck fighting against the P5. LOL


Only China worry if VN acquire nuke bomb. Russia-US dont care.

When US or Russia transfer laser nuclear enrichment tech to VN , China must know we soon will have nuke bomb. With this tech, No one know if we enrich more than 10% or not 


> *Laser Advances in Nuclear Fuel Stir Terror Fear*
> *By WILLIAM J. BROAD*
> 
> The company foresees “substantial demand for nuclear fuel,” said Christopher J. Monetta, president of Global Laser Enrichment, a subsidiary of G.E. and Hitachi.
> 
> One idea, a half-century old, has been to do it with nothing more substantial than lasers and their rays of concentrated light. This futuristic approach has always proved too expensive and difficult for anything but laboratory experimentation.
> 
> Until now.
> 
> In a little-known effort, General Electric has successfully tested laser enrichment for two years and is seeking federal permission to build a $1 billion plant that would make reactor fuel by the ton.
> *That might be good news for the nuclear industry. But critics fear that if the work succeeds and the secret gets out, rogue states and terrorists could make bomb fuel in much smaller plants that are difficult to detect*.
> 
> Iran has already succeeded with laser enrichment in the lab, and nuclear experts worry that G.E.’s accomplishment might inspire Tehran to build a plant easily hidden from the world’s eyes.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/science/earth/21laser.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> If they can, they already did.
> 
> For Vietnam, it's impossible. All SE Asian original people are too lazy, really, that's why Chinese in south east Asia are much richer than you. You even can't beat local Chinese, even come here to talk about the Master of SE Asia?? Nice joke, bro.
> 
> Just look at those SE Asian countries. Phillipines, their men are fucking lazy, their women are doing the job as servant, they never feel ashamed. Then look at Thailand, shemale culture is the mainstream of that country, what a sick country! Don't know much about Indonesia. Vietnam is a little better than them, because Vietnam was once under East Asian cultural sphere, that's why Vietnam is more successful than shithole Phllipines. But you still can't really become the leader of SE Asia.
> 
> You may feel unpleasant about what I said, but that's the general opinion of Chinese about them.


we can make a deal: Chinese can be the master of economics, while Vietnamese master of politics in SE Asia?
you can become rich, while we rich and powerful. 

don´t forget, in ancient times, nearly all neighbors in SE Asia paid tributes to Vietnamese court: Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Malacca. All wet their pants when they see Vietnamese army coming. 



NiceGuy said:


> Russia will help VN to unite Sub-Mekong region. After successfully united the region, VN will get bigger and stronger, then, both Great Russia and Great Viet will sandwich China and treat China as a cheap clown in Asia.


China as cheap clown of Asia   



KAL-EL said:


> You really think this will happen? I give you credit! No matter what happens, no one can say you're not an optimist


Russia is very supportive for Vietnam. I think Putin has some hidden intentions in Asia.

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## NiceGuy

xunzi said:


> LOL! Without our support and Soviet, you are dead meat. Stop lying. The reason the US didn't invade the North was because of *our warning*. This allow you Vietcong to actually retreat, recuperate, and continue to attack. Without this immense support by us, you are nothing but another Iraq.


Your warning ?? who cares ?/ US still control your Taiwan despite tons of warning from China. China can not protect their own land, so who cares if China try to 'protect' other country ??

We only need weapon & food supply from Russia-China, not the combat troops. If there were some China troops in VN during VN , that was Mr. Mao forces us to accept them to enter, othe r while Mr. Mao wouldnt supply weapon & food for VN anymore.

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## NEPALESE GURKHA

Russia and China is friend as far as i know, when did they become enmy?


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## Viet

xunzi said:


> LOL! Without our support and Soviet, you are dead meat. Stop lying. The reason the US didn't invade the North was because of our warning. This allow you Vietcong to actually retreat, recuperate, and continue to attack. Without this immense support by us, you are nothing but another Iraq.


you supported Vietnam because you have learned what it means for China if you don´t support Vietnam.

back then, Qing China was reluctant to support Vietnam in the struggle against the French. Soon after when Vietnam fell, all foreigners came and raped China.

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## NiceGuy

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> Russia and China is friend as far as i know, when did they become enmy?


They have border dispute and killed each other during Cold war


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## Edison Chen

Viet said:


> we can make a deal: Chinese can be the master of economics, while Vietnamese master of politics in SE Asia?
> you can become rich, while we rich and powerful.
> 
> don´t forget, in ancient times, nearly all neighbors in SE Asia paid tributes to Vietnamese court: Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Malacca. All wet their pants when they see Vietnamese army coming.



Vietnam should make a deal with Koreans. They rule the whole universe, Vietnam rule a parallel universe.

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## Viet

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> Russia and China is friend as far as i know, when did they become enmy?


Russians and Chinese are never friends. they keep distance. they cooperate in fields where interests overlap. nothing more.

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## NEPALESE GURKHA

NiceGuy said:


> They have border dispute and killed each other during Cold war


then why russia sells its weapon to china


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## Viet

Edison Chen said:


> Vietnam should make a deal with Koreans. They rule the whole universe, Vietnam rule a parallel universe.


whatever...LOL


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## NEPALESE GURKHA

Viet said:


> whatever...LOL


Quite difficult to rule actually when u dont no your boundary.


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## Viet

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> then why russia sells its weapon to china


the Russians just want to make money. they sell to everyone including China, Vietnam and India.
America has policy of arms embargo, while Russia not.


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## Tractor

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> Russia and China is friend as far as i know, when did they become enmy?


No border disputs between us But we still enemies in Central Asia.


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## shuttler

another silly article portraying a lower than amateurish writing
Russians dont like to see the yankies cozying up to vietcongs too
Do you think the russians are friends of vietcongs withtout milking money out of it?



NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> then why russia sells its weapon to china



take a look at the UN security council voting of China and Russian then get a glimpse of how close or far away we are.

All the above trash talks about 'friendhips this or that ' are trade related lip services


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## shuttler

NiceGuy said:


> Only China worry* if VN acquire nuke bomb*. Russia-US dont care.
> 
> When US or Russia transfer laser nuclear enrichment tech to VN , China must know we soon will have nuke bomb. With this tech, No one know if we enrich more than 10% or not



Cambodia and Laos will have nukes too. DPRK will have more! 
We dont care!

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## bolo

NiceGuy said:


> Russia will help VN to unite Sub-Mekong region. After successfully united the region, VN will get bigger and stronger, then, both Great Russia and Great Viet will sandwich China and treat China as a cheap clown in Asia.


Lol. Vietnam will become stronger by getting smaller


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## BoQ77

xunzi said:


> We made a mistake by believing in this nonsense communist brotherhood. We used to be heavily involved in ideological battle. We are past that stage. I believe Agent Orange damage most of your Vietnamese brain because I rarely find any intelligent Vietnamese who can give a solid argument. LOL



We would support Russia and Japan and USA and India and Taiwan, and South Korea ...
Their navy and airforce could use our military facilities,

We do the same to Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipines and also get access to their facilities ...

but never do that to China

Last few years, Chief of Ministry of Defense : Japan, USA, Russia, ... ever visited Cam Ranh base. 
Korean, Japanese, Indian, US, Indian ... warships or coastguards visited Da Nang or Cam Ranh too


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## bolo

KAL-EL said:


> You really think this will happen? I give you credit! No matter what happens, no one can say you're not an optimist


There is a fine line between being an optimist and a fool.


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## xunzi

BoQ77 said:


> We would support Russia and Japan and USA and India and Taiwan, and South Korea ...
> Their navy and airforce could use our military facilities,
> 
> We do the same to Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipines and also get access to their facilities ...
> 
> but never do that to China


So you are butthurt over us? LOL!


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## BoQ77

shuttler said:


> Cambodia and Laos will have nukes too. DPRK will have more!
> We dont care!



We nearly get the free trade with USA on the nuclear technology and materials ... even we don't trade directly with USA, maybe Japan, is waiting for USA to sell us something great ...


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## xunzi

NiceGuy said:


> Only China worry if VN acquire nuke bomb. Russia-US dont care.
> 
> When US or Russia transfer laser nuclear enrichment tech to VN , China must know we soon will have nuke bomb. With this tech, No one know if we enrich more than 10% or not


The Vietnamese are too naive, I must say. LOL!

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## Viet

NEPALESE GURKHA said:


> Quite difficult to rule actually when u dont no your boundary.


sure, Vietnam knows its place in Asia. we are open-minded, unlike the Chinese, who think to have reached the top of the world and stop learning. 

by the way, I notice you come from Nepal. 

http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/fu...er+wants+strong+ties+with+Nepal&NewsID=410769


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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> Keep dreaming, my Vietnamese friend. LOL The ONE thing the P5 have common agenda and that is they want to preserve their power by keeping others from gaining nuclear weapon. I feel sorry for you Vietnamese being a pawn in this great power game. Last but not least as I said many times, you are not allow to enrich high-grade uranium. The moment you enrich more than 10%, you will set a red flag and you will be a dog in the war against P5's agenda. Good luck fighting against the P5. LOL





> The Vietnamese are too naive, I must say. LOL!



Chinese mumbers o PDF is bla and blaa about IQ of Chinese, in reality you are cunning kids with Ah Q mentality, black pawn of Russia and US. You changed from Soviet's pawn to US's pawn.

No one in the world could trust on Chinese, even thought Khmer Rouge.


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## Raphael

The author here squints hard to try and imagine 'cracks' in the China-Russia relations. But in the end, he can only amass two of the flimsiest pieces of evidence to prove that Russia is 'containing' China, which are: 1. Russia sells military hardware to Vietnam and 2. Russia co-operates with Vietnam in gas exploration. Both are explained by the fact that Russia is desperate for cash revenue, and is willing to bargain with anyone, even the cheapest hookers. If Russia really wanted to contain China, they wouldn't sell military hardware to China either because it neutralizes their hardware sales to Vietnam. The writer's argument completely disintegrates when his points are refuted like this.

All in all, this article reveals very little about Russia-China relations, but a lot about the desperate psychologies by two players:

1. The West is terrified by the Crimea incident and the possibility of a China-Russia axis. These kinds of half-baked, second-rate analyses only makes readers raise their eyebrows and scoff, killing the publication's credibility, so normally they don't dare to sink to such base standards. But with the pressure beating down on them, they lose their composure, and the result is a complete deterioration in editorial quality.
2. Vietnam is still the same desperate pawn, trying to court everyone with a smidgeon of power, like a renegade concubine, even when their clients are deep-seated enemies (Russia vs. US). The end result is that Vietnam's reputation gets flushed down the toilet, because no one can trust a wh0re state who curries favor with two different mafia bosses.


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## Viet

Raphael said:


> The author here squints hard to try and imagine 'cracks' in the China-Russia relations. But in the end, he can only amass two of the flimsiest pieces of evidence to prove that Russia is 'containing' China, which are: 1. Russia sells military hardware to Vietnam and 2. Russia co-operates with Vietnam in gas exploration. Both are explained by the fact that Russia is desperate for cash revenue, and is willing to bargain with anyone, even the cheapest hookers. If Russia really wanted to contain China, they wouldn't sell military hardware to China either because it neutralizes their hardware sales to Vietnam. The writer's argument completely disintegrates when his points are refuted like this.
> 
> All in all, this article reveals very little about Russia-China relations, but a lot about the desperate psychologies by two players:
> 
> 1. The West is terrified by the Crimea incident and the possibility of a China-Russia axis. These kinds of half-baked, second-rate analyses only makes readers raise their eyebrows and scoff, killing the publication's credibility, so normally they don't dare to sink to such base standards. But with the pressure beating down on them, they lose their composure, and the result is a complete deterioration in editorial quality.
> 2. Vietnam is still the same desperate pawn, trying to court everyone with a smidgeon of power, like a renegade concubine, even when their clients are deep-seated enemies (Russia vs. US). The end result is that Vietnam's reputation gets flushed down the toilet, because no one can trust a wh0re state who curries favor with two different mafia bosses.


NO, you are totally wrong. you are clueless.

first, the author Stephen Blank is an internationally known expert on Russia and the former Soviet Union. He knows more on Russia than CCP and delusional Chinese posters here combined.

American Foreign Policy Council - Experts » Stephen Blank






second, he is right. The Sino-Russia relationship is just of a facade. a bluff.
third, in contrast, the Vietnam-Russia tie is very strong and becomes stronger in the future.
fourth, he is right in the assessment: Vietnam increasingly becomes a capable middle power.

and where is China? a pawn of Russia? 



Huawei said:


> Vietnam is a mickey mouse renegade province of China that exports their women over here.
> 
> Vietnam has nothing to hurt China. PLA can just bomb the hell out of Vietnam without landing a single soldier on the ground. Target their military, industry, commercial targets and civilians.
> 
> Russia needs China now more than ever. Without Chinese markets, Russia would collapse.


you seem to run out of argument: now talk of women and girls...LOL


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## Raphael

Viet said:


> NO, you are totally wrong. you are clueless.
> 
> first, the author Stephen Blank is an internationally known expert on Russia and the former Soviet Union. He knows more on Russia than CCP and delusional Chinese posters here combined.
> 
> American Foreign Policy Council - Experts » Stephen Blank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> second, he is right. The Sino-Russia relationship is just of a facade. a bluff.
> third, in contrast, the Vietnam-Russia tie is very strong and becomes stronger in the future.



"NO"? Lol why are you so angry? Does the truth hurt that bad? It doesn't matter if he describes himself on his own webpage as an "internationally known expert", that page is only for self-promotion. I understand Vietnamese give others a free-pass for self-aggrandizement because they are guilty of it too, so it would be hypocritical to fault others for it. But most other nationalities find it laughable and embarrassing. The reality is that "Mr. Blank", who doesn't have his own wikipedia page, works for an American propaganda organ (AFPC), and thus can't publish anything in good faith. America's is facing one of their most tense foreign policy crises right now, and it shows in their desperate half-rate propaganda leaflets.

Instead of being a cheap cheerleader for hire and hiding behind the author's (worthless) name, why don't you tell us which argument he has made that is still valid for proving his thesis statement: that Russia is attempting to contain China?


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## Huawei

Viet said:


> NO, you are totally wrong. you are clueless.
> 
> first, the author Stephen Blank is an internationally known expert on Russia and the former Soviet Union. He knows more on Russia than CCP and delusional Chinese posters here combined.
> 
> American Foreign Policy Council - Experts » Stephen Blank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> second, he is right. The Sino-Russia relationship is just of a facade. a bluff.
> third, in contrast, the Vietnam-Russia tie is very strong and becomes stronger in the future.
> fourth, he is right in the assessment: Vietnam increasingly becomes a capable middle power.
> 
> and where is China? a pawn of Russia?
> 
> 
> you seem to run out of argument: now talk of women and girls...LOL



Viets need to learn the truth about where their country stands in the pecking order vis-a-vis China.


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## armchairPrivate

"russia-and-vietnam-team-up-to-balance-china"

comedy!!!

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## NiceGuy

shuttler said:


> Cambodia and Laos will have nukes too. DPRK will have more!
> We dont care!


Yeah , just give Laos-Camb nukes, dont forget half of Laos' population is VNese and VN is controlling Camb's army


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## NEPALESE GURKHA

Viet said:


> the Russians just want to make money. they sell to everyone including China, Vietnam and India.
> America has policy of arms embargo, while Russia not.





Viet said:


> sure, Vietnam knows its place in Asia. we are open-minded, unlike the Chinese, who think to have reached the top of the world and stop learning.
> 
> by the way, I notice you come from Nepal.
> 
> http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/fullNews.php?headline=Visiting Vietnamese Minister wants strong ties with Nepal&NewsID=410769


yup im from nepal and my reply of ur thread was on your ambition to rule Universe with korean


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## senheiser

obviously balanced moving towards asia is needed. China may be the most important partner of russia but we arent for china. China had like since 20 years the opportunity to buy our oil and gas but they instead turned towards central asia and the middle east route which is guarded by american carriers, and they keep doing all kind of measures to avoid energy from russia like still using coal which pollutes their cities.

And i have the feel they now they see an opportunity again to exploit our situation instead of helping us against western sanctions to get a cheaper price for our energy and access to weapon technology, if you read many chinese opinions. But even if they would turn to russian energy, china alone cant fill russias trade which stands at a total of 850 billion dollars which half of that is made with EU countries.

Also, if we wouldnt sell viatnamese weapons they would buy american ones and if gazprom wouldnt drill for oil there total or exxon would do it i hope china sees that way

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## sincity

xudeen said:


> You must have forgotten how Cambodia saboatge the ASEAN summit, which was to be used by viet & pinoy on the SCS issue against China? Do you even know what happen in that event? How ministers of ASEAN countries were trying to "get the hell outta here" before viet & pinoys could even speak a word? Research on this subject then you'll see who's your so called friends.
> 
> You are so right about national interest primacy over friendship fallacy. Which is precisely the point I've made - Russia or the US will use viet against China, not because they are your friend, but you serve a purpose. Case in point - USSR used viet during the vietnam war against the US, without Soviet spilling a drop of blood. Agent orange should remind you of those faithful years


 


Viet Nam, Vietnamese not viet, even you hate Vietnamese atleast used proper punctuation and capital letter when mention a name of the nation and it people.

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## NiceGuy

sincity said:


> Viet Nam, Vietnamese not viet, even you hate Vietnamese atleast used proper punctuation and capital letter when mention a name of the nation and it people.


Thanks bro, yeah, Chinese here should use proper capital letter 



senheiser said:


> obviously balanced moving towards asia is needed. China may be the most important partner of russia but we arent for china. China had like since 20 years the opportunity to buy our oil and gas but they instead turned towards central asia and the middle east route which is guarded by american carriers, and they keep doing all kind of measures to avoid energy from russia like still using coal which pollutes their cities.
> 
> And i have the feel they now they see an opportunity again to exploit our situation instead of helping us against western sanctions to get a cheaper price for our energy and access to weapon technology, if you read many chinese opinions. But even if they would turn to russian energy, china alone cant fill russias trade which stands at a total of 850 billion dollars which half of that is made with EU countries.
> 
> Also, if we wouldnt sell viatnamese weapons they would buy american ones and if gazprom wouldnt drill for oil there total or exxon would do it i hope china sees that way


Yeah, just like the Old time, VN-Russia stand together , kick some bad @$$ and share the benefit together

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## BoQ77

NiceGuy said:


> Thanks bro, yeah, Chinese here should use proper capital letter



Broken china

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## Superboy

NiceGuy said:


> They have border dispute and killed each other during Cold war




China and Russia settled their border dispute back in 2008 when Russia gave 174 square kilometers to China. 

Russia, China End Decades-Long Border Dispute


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## Pangu

sincity said:


> Viet Nam, Vietnamese not viet, even you hate Vietnamese atleast used proper punctuation and capital letter when mention a name of the nation and it people.



Fair enough, I will use Vietnam from now on. Does that please our Vietnamese friends here?

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## Superboy

The US is de facto the most powerful country in the world. Till the day the US loses that position, China and Russia will not stop working together to make the US no longer the most powerful country in the world.


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## BoQ77

Superboy said:


> China and Russia settled their border dispute back in 2008 when Russia gave 174 square kilometers to China.
> 
> Russia, China End Decades-Long Border Dispute



Then one day, they would use the Crime scenario to take back and more ... ( Donetsk ? )


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## Superboy

BoQ77 said:


> Then one day, they would use the Crime scenario to take back and more ... ( Donetsk ? )




Russia is keen to take Russian speaking territories, but China doesn't speak Russian.


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## Pangu

senheiser said:


> obviously balanced moving towards asia is needed. China may be the most important partner of russia but we arent for china. China had like since 20 years the opportunity to buy our oil and gas but they instead turned towards central asia and the middle east route which is guarded by american carriers, and they keep doing all kind of measures to avoid energy from russia like still using coal which pollutes their cities.
> 
> And i have the feel they now they see an opportunity again to exploit our situation instead of helping us against western sanctions to get a cheaper price for our energy and access to weapon technology, if you read many chinese opinions. But even if they would turn to russian energy, china alone cant fill russias trade which stands at a total of 850 billion dollars which half of that is made with EU countries.
> 
> Also, if we wouldnt sell viatnamese weapons they would buy american ones and if gazprom wouldnt drill for oil there total or exxon would do it i hope china sees that way



All countries mak


senheiser said:


> obviously balanced moving towards asia is needed. China may be the most important partner of russia but we arent for china. China had like since 20 years the opportunity to buy our oil and gas but they instead turned towards central asia and the middle east route which is guarded by american carriers, and they keep doing all kind of measures to avoid energy from russia like still using coal which pollutes their cities.
> 
> And i have the feel they now they see an opportunity again to exploit our situation instead of helping us against western sanctions to get a cheaper price for our energy and access to weapon technology, if you read many chinese opinions. But even if they would turn to russian energy, china alone cant fill russias trade which stands at a total of 850 billion dollars which half of that is made with EU countries.
> 
> Also, if we wouldnt sell viatnamese weapons they would buy american ones and if gazprom wouldnt drill for oil there total or exxon would do it i hope china sees that way



There is no real issue despite internet chatter & some officials making nosie about the oil drill in SCS. Also, selling Vietnam weapons - no issue.  As for the oil & gas price, we definately want the best price we can get, as replacing coal use in China over long term is very expensive, it's not something we can deal without serious consideration. Also, diversification is key to our energy security, so just buying oil & gas from Russia alone is unrealistic. Besides, we need to build relations with other countries thtu' trade & investment, I sure the Putin administration understands. 

I hope Ukraine will stabilise soon, surely the fiasco there is taking toll on people's emotion in Russia as well.


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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> Chinese mumbers o PDF is bla and blaa about IQ of Chinese, in reality you are cunning kids with Ah Q mentality, black pawn of Russia and US. You changed from Soviet's pawn to US's pawn.
> 
> No one in the world could trust on Chinese, even thought Khmer Rouge.


The ONLY reason we did not form alliance is because of our non-interference policy. We could easily shift that policy in 2020s and build the core China-PAK alliance which will bring in other close friends of China and Pak together to form a security and strategic ring. You can expect that. Since you are part of the Russian alliance, then you do your own thing and we do our own thing.

If we are not trust, we would not be this powerful in this short 30 years time frame.


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## senheiser

actually it would be the best moment for china to invade taiwan as long as the US is headed towards europe, it would be a huge blow to america but unfurtainly its not gonna happen.


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> Ukraine does not have an army, but Vietnam. the Philippines has the backing of America.
> if China wants to start a war, do it.


How about Georgia?



sincity said:


> Just depend on the west want Viet Nam to possess nuclear weapons or not. Those question are irrelevance to whether Viet Nam can or can't build their nuclear weapons.


Seriously ,you really believe THE WEST will help Viet to make Nuke weapon and use it to fight China under some situation,such as China attack Viet ?????



sincity said:


> Big nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are responsible nuclear arm nation. Small nation possess nuclear weapons don't mean they are reckless with their nuclear weapons and want to start a nuclear war. All nation need to possess nuke will deter any nation start a war with their naked aggression.


Talk these words to US president please.

Let him save his fart about NK and IRAN ' nuke program.


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## bolo

atatwolf said:


> The worst thing China could do is join the loosers club a.k.a ex-soviet friends.
> 
> I'm crossing my fingers they will make this mistake. China will have the same fate of Soviet Union. Disintegration and domination.
> 
> Actually, Russia is less of a threat than China. We all know human rights abuses and crimes done by Chinicites.. The international community can turn a blind eye to Russia but China no mercy will be shown. Even Russia agrees with this premise if you read through their geopolitical strategy in Asia.
> 
> China will be completely on their own versus the world.


Lol. China is not some dumb turkish cannon fodder used by nato

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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> Russia has its own agenda in Asia. Only delusional Chinese assume they are a friend of Russia.
> 
> from the beginning, the Soviets or later Russians have always been on Vietnam side, notably in the support of Vietnam in the struggle against the French, America and China.
> 
> the Soviets supported Vietnam in the military campaign against Pol Pot Cambodia. Russia supports Vietnam stance in the SC Sea. Their companies explore oil and gas with Vietnamese counterparts as well as provide weapons and technologies to Vietnam to counter China.
> 
> Putin is a friend of Vietnam. He never cares of the many warnings of the Chinese. Putin wants Russia to again become a superpower, challenging America and China hegemony in Asia. If it comes to whom to trust the Russians trust the Japanese more than the Chinese. Putin rejects Chinese demand to leave Asia. He even rejects Chinese idea to support them in the dispute against Japan.


Yes ,Russia really loves you guys rather than us .

Because you serve Russia really well!


----------



## Kyle Sun

NiceGuy said:


> Russia will help VN to unite Sub-Mekong region. After successfully united the region, VN will get bigger and stronger, then, both Great Russia and Great Viet will sandwich China and treat China as a cheap clown in Asia.


Unite Sub-Mekong Region ! Good Idea, Do it !


----------



## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> Unite *Sub-Mekong Region *! Good Idea, Do it !


already in the making: Vietnam-Laos-Cambodia-Thailand 

FOREIGN PRESS CENTER > NguoiDung > TinTuc > TinChiTiet









Raphael said:


> "*NO*"? Lol why are you so angry? Does the truth hurt that bad? It doesn't matter if he describes himself on his own webpage as an "internationally known expert", that page is only for self-promotion. I understand Vietnamese give others a free-pass for self-aggrandizement because they are guilty of it too, so it would be hypocritical to fault others for it. But most other nationalities find it laughable and embarrassing. The reality is that "Mr. Blank", who doesn't have his own wikipedia page, works for an American propaganda organ (*AFPC*), and thus can't publish anything in good faith. America's is facing one of their most tense foreign policy crises right now, and it shows in their desperate half-rate propaganda leaflets.
> 
> Instead of being a cheap cheerleader for hire and hiding behind the author's (worthless) name, why don't you tell us which argument he has made that is still valid for proving his thesis statement: that Russia is attempting to contain China?


I don´t get angry. the word NO is just written in capital letter, although many Chinese posters insult and threat with bombing Vietnam.

you scold on AFPC. but how many think tanks on foreign policiy does China have? can you name me any? any well-known besides the nationalistic Global Times?
as I said previoulsy, Russia does not contain China as a primary goal, but neither leaves East and SE Asia just to please China.

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## Viet

senheiser said:


> obviously balanced moving towards asia is needed. *China may be the most important partner of russia but we arent for china. *China had like since 20 years the opportunity to buy our oil and gas but they instead turned towards central asia and the middle east route which is guarded by american carriers, and they keep doing all kind of measures to avoid energy from russia like still using coal which pollutes their cities.
> 
> And i have the feel they now they see an opportunity again to exploit our situation instead of helping us against western sanctions to get a cheaper price for our energy and access to weapon technology, if you read many chinese opinions. But even if they would turn to russian energy, china alone cant fill russias trade which stands at a total of 850 billion dollars which half of that is made with EU countries.
> 
> Also, if we wouldnt sell viatnamese weapons they would buy american ones and if gazprom wouldnt drill for oil there total or exxon would do it i hope china sees that way


yes, Russia is welcome to cooperate and make more deals with Vietnam. for instance, your new idea of exploring the space:  you can sell rocket technology to Vietnam. China is not reliable.








Russia, Vietnam to explore space for peaceful purposes | VOV Online Newspaper


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> already in the making: Vietnam-Laos-Cambodia-Thailand
> 
> FOREIGN PRESS CENTER > NguoiDung > TinTuc > TinChiTiet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don´t get angry. the word NO is just written in capital letter, although many Chinese posters insult and threat with bombing Vietnam.
> 
> you scold on AFPC. but how many think tanks on foreign policiy does China have? can you name me any? any well-known besides the nationalistic Global Times?
> as I said previoulsy, Russia does not contain China as a primary goal, but neither leaves East and SE Asia just to please China.



If so , please do not criticize US for the Viet-US war ,or China for sino-Viet war anymore.;


----------



## sincity

Kyle Sun said:


> How about Georgia?
> 
> 
> Seriously ,you really believe THE WEST will help Viet to make Nuke weapon and use it to fight China under some situation,such as China attack Viet ?????
> 
> 
> Talk these words to US president please.
> 
> Let him save his fart about NK and IRAN ' nuke program.


 


What make you think the West wouldn't want Viet Nam arm themselve with nuclear weapons? Did I say US and Nato will help Viet Nam acquire nuclear weapons? seriously what make China untouchable to stop US and Nato arming Viet Nam with nuclear weapon? You are overestimate China influence in this world.

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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> If so , please do not criticize US for the Viet-US war ,or China for sino-Viet war anymore.;


don´t talk rubbish! we come with a peaceful intention. Nobody is forced to cooperate with Vietnam.



sincity said:


> Viet Nam, Vietnamese not viet, even you hate Vietnamese atleast used proper punctuation and capital letter when mention a name of the nation and it people.


Vietnam or Viet Nam, 
Vietnamese or Viet, both are ok



xudeen said:


> Fair enough, I will use Vietnam from now on. Does that please our Vietnamese friends here?


yes, that is fair. PLS DON´T USE the term Vietcong.


----------



## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> don´t talk rubbish! we come with a peaceful intention. Nobody is forced to cooperate with Vietnam.
> 
> 
> Vietnam or Viet Nam,
> Vietnamese or Viet, both are ok
> 
> 
> yes, that is fair. PLS DON´T USE the term Vietcong.



Shut your mouth ,idiot .

NiceGuy said "unite Sub-Mekong region", that does not sound peaceful

and who the hell you think you are ? Unite a region? 

You guys tried to do that few years ago ,and you guys still can not forget this day dream.

We will never allow you to do that like what we did years ago .

To know oneself is a good character for a person ,also for a country or nation.

That is what you guys need to learn and study .

As soon as you guys got off Fra and US, you guys want to get the hegemony of the sub-mekong region with your joking the third military power.

If you guys try that again , you will get beat up again , I 100% ensure you that ,Remember my words.


----------



## Huawei

Right now the last country Russia wants to anger is China. We are their alternative market for energy exports as Europe is moving away from Russian energy. Russians want money and they realise China can make them more money than the rest of Asia combined.


----------



## Kyle Sun

sincity said:


> What make you think the West wouldn't want Viet Nam arm themselve with nuclear weapons? Did I say US and Nato will help Viet Nam acquire nuclear weapons? seriously what make China untouchable to stop US and Nato arming Viet Nam with nuclear weapon? You are overestimate China influence in this world.



China is not the key , no matter we are weak or strong , I do not want to say how many times we fight each,other.

The key is whether US will allow the nuclear proliferation or not, understand ?

Looks like in your opinion us will allow that for another country . That is , how to say ,naive.

Start a Nuke war for Viet, you guys are really good ally .


----------



## Huawei

China will take preemptive military action in Vietnam if China even gets a hint that Vietcongs are building nuclear weapons.

Vietcongs will NEVER have nukes, its plain and simple.

The PLA can carpet bomb every city in Vietnam with minimal casualties.

Vietnam is nothing more than a renegade Chinese province.



NiceGuy said:


> Yeah , just give Laos-Camb nukes, dont forget half of Laos' population is VNese and VN is controlling Camb's army



Laos and Cambodia are both Chinese puppet states.

They depend on our markets, technology, weapons, goods & services and political support.

Laos and Cambodia are more pro-China than North Korea.


----------



## StarCraft_ZT

China and Russia are geographical and strategical partners, it's not the vendor-customer relation like Russia is with India and Vietnam. I mean, China and Russia need each other's support. This is a two-way collaboration, mutual help. India and Vietnam only need Russia's weapon, Russia has no expectations on them.

But I hold qualified opinion on Russian. I don't trust them.

China don't need to follow anyone. Many counties are learning from China. Be confident guys!


----------



## chhota bheem

StarCraft_ZT said:


> China and Russia are geographical and strategical partners, it's not the vendor-customer relation like Russia is with India and Vietnam. I mean, China and Russia need each other's support. This is a two-way collaboration, mutual help. India and Vietnam only need Russia's weapon, Russia has no expectations on them.
> 
> But I hold qualified opinion on Russian. I don't trust them.


Yup India Russian relation ship is vendor-customer relationship,but they come and stand with us like in 71,when the US sent the 7th fleet.
And China has higher than mountain,and deeper than ocean friendship with some but never stand with them in the time of need.
Now thats something.


----------



## StarCraft_ZT

Huawei said:


> Laos and Cambodia are both Chinese puppet states.
> 
> They depend on our markets, technology, weapons, goods & services and political support.
> 
> *Laos and Cambodia are more pro-China than North Korea.*



I have to say, Koreans are not like those people from failed states, even North Koreans are surrounded by big powers, they still struggle to make the best interest. We should keep an eye on North Korea, and in the future they will cause more trouble to China than Vietnam did.



chhota bheem said:


> Yup India Russian relation ship is vendor-customer relationship,but they come and stand with us like in 71,when the US sent the 7th fleet.
> *And China has higher than mountain,and deeper than ocean friendship with some but never stand with them in the time of need.*
> Now thats something.



They wish they could, but in fact their voice is not that loud on international stage.

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## chhota bheem

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I have to say, Koreans are not like those people from failed states, even North Koreans are surrounded by big powers, they still struggle to make the best interest. We should keep an eye on North Korea, and in the future they will cause more trouble to China than Vietnam did.
> 
> 
> 
> They wish they could, but in fact their voice is not that loud on international stage.



Yup ,if wishes where ,,,,,,,,,,,


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## BoQ77

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I have to say, Koreans are not like those people from failed states, even North Koreans are surrounded by big powers, they still struggle to make the best interest. We should keep an eye on North Korea, and in the future they will cause more trouble to China than Vietnam did.
> 
> 
> 
> They wish they could, but in fact their voice is not that loud on international stage.



Yeah ... Don't mess with Vietnam themselves, and you could be friend, not enemy ... 
To NK : when China make friend to someone else, China could be their enemy ...


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## BoQ77

Huawei said:


> Right now the last country Russia wants to anger is China. We are their alternative market for energy exports as Europe is moving away from Russian energy. Russians want money and they realise China can make them more money than the rest of Asia combined.



China used to team up with Cambodia to face ASEAN, with Pak to face India ...
Vietnam is not any country vassal, whoever we want to team up depend on our choice only.


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## Huawei

BoQ77 said:


> China used to team up with Cambodia to face ASEAN, with Pak to face India ...
> Vietnam is not any country vassal, whoever we want to team up depend on our choice only.



Vietcongs have been a vassal of China for centuries. It still is a renegade Chinese province.


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## BoQ77

Huawei said:


> Vietcongs have been a vassal of China for centuries. It still is a renegade Chinese province.



Vietcongs never been a vassal of China ... you are so fun


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## Huawei

BoQ77 said:


> Vietcongs never been a vassal of China ... you are so fun



Yup. They have. Vietcongs have always been a vassal state of China for centuries. 

It still is a vassal state because you export Viet women to China to marry Chinese men. 

This is a fact.


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## BoQ77

Huawei said:


> Yup. They have. Vietcongs have always been a vassal state of China for centuries.
> 
> It still is a vassal state because you export Viet women to China to marry Chinese men.
> 
> This is a fact.



Women give birth of men to the world ... why you don't call those women as Mothers ?
Many Chinese must call Vietnamese women as their Mothers, Grandmothers
You are wrong of vassal aspect

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## Huawei

BoQ77 said:


> Women give birth of men to the world ... why you don't call those women as Mothers ?
> Many Chinese must call Vietnamese women as their Mothers, Grandmothers
> You are wrong of vassal aspect



You really need to speak better English dude.


----------



## Sam1980

Huawei said:


> Yup. They have. Vietcongs have always been a vassal state of China for centuries.



What about Malaysia?


----------



## NiceGuy

Kyle Sun said:


> Unite Sub-Mekong Region ! Good Idea, Do it !


Mr.Thaksin protected by Mr. Hun-Sen who is called "One eyed lackey of the Vietnamese" is the Key to unite Thailand.

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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> The ONLY reason we did not form alliance is because of our non-interference policy. We could easily shift that policy in 2020s and build the core China-PAK alliance which will bring in other close friends of China and Pak together to form a security and strategic ring. You can expect that. Since you are part of the Russian alliance, then you do your own thing and we do our own thing.
> 
> If we are not trust, we would not be this powerful in this short 30 years time frame.



Pak should be regret in future, when they let China use their road and sea port to China asscess to Indian ocean. Your avatar reminder me to old story in history of China: "hiren road of Wuguo to attack Jua Guo". At the end, both state were conquered.


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> Shut your mouth ,idiot .
> 
> NiceGuy said "unite Sub-Mekong region", that does not sound peaceful
> 
> and who the hell you think you are ? Unite a region?
> 
> You guys tried to do that few years ago ,and you guys still can not forget this day dream.
> 
> We will never allow you to do that like what we did years ago .
> 
> To know oneself is a good character for a person ,also for a country or nation.
> 
> That is what you guys need to learn and study .
> 
> As soon as you guys got off Fra and US, you guys want to get the hegemony of the sub-mekong region with your joking the third military power.
> 
> If you guys try that again , you will get beat up again , I 100% ensure you that ,Remember my words.


no need to run amok. you can stop the PLA.
times have long gone when Vietnam forcefully civilized the barbarians. 

today every nation in SE Asia is free in the decision if they want to join Vietnamese "friendship club". Sorry, China as a country in East Asia is not eligible. You stay out.

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## NiceGuy

Huawei said:


> Laos and Cambodia are both Chinese puppet states.
> 
> They depend on our markets, technology, weapons, goods & services and political support.
> 
> Laos and Cambodia are more pro-China than North Korea.


If u trust Laos - a nation with half of population is Vnese, or Camb with the military is under VN control, then, feel free to give them nuke, we love it ,too

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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> Pak should be regret in future, when they let China use their road and sea port to China asscess to Indian ocean. Your avatar reminder me to old story in history of China: "hiren road of Wuguo to attack Jua Guo". At the end, both state were conquered.


What? Are you stupid or something? When we complete our country development, we can focus on providing aids to our ally. Pakistan will be the 1st country on our list which we will help develop. First, we already build road, energy, infrastructure in Pakistan, and setting up the core economic factors that will allow Pakistan to transcend itself into a competitive country in the future.

In fact, there is a very good chance your country will split up because of your stupid government who doesn't know how to run a country. Being a communist regime, the US will intervene and cause chaotic again. This time, we will not involved to help you but instead let the US split up and make your country into democrappy. LOL


----------



## Huawei

NiceGuy said:


> If u trust Laos - a nation with half of population is Vnese, or Camb with the military is under VN control, then, feel free to give them nuke, we love it ,too



We control Laos and Cambodia military, politics, economy and media 

They always support us in ASEAN in territorial disputes


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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> What? Are you stupid or something? When we complete our country development, we can focus on providing aids to our ally. Pakistan will be the 1st country on our list which we will help develop. First, we already build road, energy, infrastructure in Pakistan, and setting up the core economic factors that will allow Pakistan to transcend itself into a competitive country in the future.
> 
> In fact, there is a very good chance your country will split up because of your stupid government who doesn't know how to run a country. Being a communist regime, the US will intervene and cause chaotic again. This time, we will not involved to help you but instead let the US split up and make your country into democrappy. LOL



he, he, What China do in Pak now is same tactic what China did in Vietnam war, China has built a roads from China in to soil of north provinces of Vietnam. 1979 China has been invaded in to Vietnam in this roads .

For Vietnam, intervention of USA and China is not permited to happen again. Vietnam join to ASEAN and we can change the policy system as slowly, step and step to become democracy sociality.

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## Rechoice

Huawei said:


> We control Laos and Cambodia military, politics, economy and media
> 
> They always support us in ASEAN in territorial disputes



Only Cambodia said stupid thing about "no put issue to internationalize" but for the dispute about Preah Vihear temple with Thailand, with voting on 15 June 1962, the international court ruled 9 to 3 that the temple belonged to Cambodia.

Hunsen droped in Hanoi recently. Do You know why ? to say sorry.



xunzi said:


> What? Are you stupid or something? When we complete our country development, we can focus on providing aids to our ally. Pakistan will be the 1st country on our list which we will help develop. First, we already build road, energy, infrastructure in Pakistan, and setting up the core economic factors that will allow Pakistan to transcend itself into a competitive country in the future.
> 
> In fact, there is a very good chance your country will split up because of your stupid government who doesn't know how to run a country. Being a communist regime, the US will intervene and cause chaotic again. This time, we will not involved to help you but instead let the US split up and make your country into democrappy. LOL



he, he, What China do in Pak now is same tactic what China did in Vietnam war, China has built a roads from China in to soil of north provinces of Vietnam. 1979 China invaded in to Vietnam in this roads .

For Vietnam, intervention of USA and China is not permited to happen again. Vietnam join to ASEAN and we can change the policy system as slowly, step and step to become democracy sociality.

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## Huawei

Rechoice said:


> Only Cambodia said stupid thing about "no put issue to internationalize" but for the dispute about Preah Vihear temple with Thailand, with voting on 15 June 1962, the international court ruled 9 to 3 that the temple belonged to Cambodia.
> 
> Hunsen droped in Hanoi recently. Do You know why ? to say sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> he, he, What China do in Pak now is same tactic what China did in Vietnam war, China has built a roads from China in to soil of north provinces of Vietnam. 1979 China invaded in to Vietnam in this roads .
> 
> For Vietnam, intervention of USA and China is not permited to happen again. Vietnam join to ASEAN and we can change the policy system as slowly, step and step to become democracy sociality.



Cambodia and Laos are Chinese vassal states. They depend on China for everything. They buy our weapons, they need the massive Chinese consumer market, they need our technology, they need our goods and services, they need everything from us and we offer everything.

When it comes to choosing between little Vietnam and might China, Cambodia and Laos will ALWAYS choose mighty China. Whatever Vietnam can offer them, we can offer them 100 times more.

It's a no contest.

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## NiceGuy

Huawei said:


> We control Laos and Cambodia military, politics, economy and media
> 
> They always support us in ASEAN in territorial disputes


Then give them nuke, so that they can threaten VN. what r u waiting for ?? We love to see Laos-Camb have nuke, too



Huawei said:


> Cambodia and Laos are Chinese vassal states. They depend on China for everything. They buy our weapons, they need the massive Chinese consumer market, they need our technology, they need our goods and services, they need everything from us and we offer everything.
> 
> When it comes to choosing between little Vietnam and might China, Cambodia and Laos will ALWAYS choose mighty China. Whatever Vietnam can offer them, we can offer them 100 times more.
> 
> It's a no contest.


ALWAYS choose mighty China ?? Is that what u were learned from ur history book ???Sorry, In 1979 Laos support VN against China.

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## Oldman1

Huawei said:


> Yup. We did.
> 
> We liberated North Korea. Before we entered the war, North Korea was under US occupation and at the end of the war, North Korea was liberated by us. That's called an overwhelming victory for China over the US. Not a shadow of a doubt about it.
> 
> We crushed Vietnam in 1974, 1979 an 1988.
> 
> You got whipped by Vietnam the only time you faced them.



You tried to conquered South Korea and failed in the process. It was victory for us technically because the objective by China and North Korea was reunification which you failed. No doubt about it. You didn't crushed Vietnam. What was it that you claimed? Longest retreat but not defeat against the U.S.? I always heard longest retreat from Chinese members but not defeating the U.S. because you can't claim it.

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## Huawei

NiceGuy said:


> Then give them nuke, so that they can threaten VN. what r u waiting for ?? We love to see Laos-Camb have nuke, too
> 
> 
> ALWAYS choose mighty China ?? Is that what u were learned from ur history book ???Sorry, In 1979 Laos support VN against China.



This is 2014 kid 

Laos and Cambodia have been our voices in ASEAN in stopping Vietnam and Pinoy aggression in territorial disputes.



Oldman1 said:


> You tried to conquered South Korea and failed in the process. It was victory for us technically because the objective by China and North Korea was reunification which you failed. No doubt about it. You didn't crushed Vietnam. What was it that you claimed? Longest retreat but not defeat against the U.S.? I always heard longest retreat from Chinese members but not defeating the U.S. because you can't claim it.



Our objective was to free kick the US away from the China-North Korea border.

Not only did we achieve that goal but we crushed the US military so bad that we eventually kicked the US out of the entire North Korean territory.

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## rott

BoQ77 said:


> We nearly get the free trade with USA on the nuclear technology and materials ... even we don't trade directly with USA, maybe Japan, is waiting for USA to sell us something great ...


I am actually waiting for you Vietnamese to drop one nuke on any major Chinese city, and the most that would happen is, Vietnamese turning into an *Endangered Species*. 
What are you waiting for? We are waiting. Remember the second strike from China and it will be the total *Annihilation of Vietnam*.



Huawei said:


> China will take preemptive military action in Vietnam if China even gets a hint that Vietcongs are building nuclear weapons.
> 
> Vietcongs will NEVER have nukes, its plain and simple.
> 
> The PLA can carpet bomb every city in Vietnam with minimal casualties.
> 
> Vietnam is nothing more than a renegade Chinese province.
> 
> 
> Laos and Cambodia are both Chinese puppet states.
> 
> They depend on our markets, technology, weapons, goods & services and political support.
> 
> Laos and Cambodia are more pro-China than North Korea.



You don't really need to even argue with them. Let them build and let them drop just ONE tiny nuke. 
Later the kids of our future generation will be taught, there was once a jungle country called Vietnam which has seized to exist because of it's aggressive foreign policy.

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## ChineseTiger1986

rott said:


> I am actually waiting for you Vietnamese to drop one nuke on any major Chinese city, and the most that would happen is, Vietnamese turning into an *Endangered Species*.
> What are you waiting for? We are waiting. Remember the second strike from China and it will be the total *Annihilation of Vietnam*.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need to even argue with them. Let them build and let them drop just ONE tiny nuke.
> Later the kids of our future generation will be taught, there was once a jungle country called Vietnam which has seized to exist because of it's aggressive foreign policy.



Vietcong doesn't have the capability to drop a single nuke to China, since you need the delivery system, it is not just to drop an egg.

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## rott

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Vietcong doesn't have the capability to drop a single nuke to China, since you need the delivery system, it is not just to drop an egg.


I know. I was just saying, even if they did. We can say BYE BYE to Vietcongs right here in PDF.

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## ViXuyen

rott said:


> I am actually waiting for you Vietnamese to drop one nuke on any major Chinese city, and the most that would happen is, Vietnamese turning into an *Endangered Species*.
> What are you waiting for? We are waiting. Remember the second strike from China and it will be the total *Annihilation of Vietnam*.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need to even argue with them. Let them build and let them drop just ONE tiny nuke.
> Later the kids of our future generation will be taught, there was once a jungle country called Vietnam which has seized to exist because of it's aggressive foreign policy.


 Are you bluffing us? When news broke that we were negotiating with the U.S regarding the enrichment technology, your politicians all jumped up and down like monkies. I won't imagine what happen if we possess ONE single nuke truck/boat/ship delivered across the border to China

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## Rechoice

Huawei said:


> Cambodia and Laos are Chinese vassal states. They depend on China for everything. They buy our weapons, they need the massive Chinese consumer market, they need our technology, they need our goods and services, they need everything from us and we offer everything.
> 
> When it comes to choosing between little Vietnam and might China, Cambodia and Laos will ALWAYS choose mighty China. Whatever Vietnam can offer them, we can offer them 100 times more.
> 
> It's a no contest.



Khmer Rouge genocide regim choosed mighty China to his friend and to kill his own people included Chinese.

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## ViXuyen

Huawei said:


> The PLA can carpet bomb every city in Vietnam with minimal casualties.


When China can deliver 20,000 tons of TNT over Hanoi and Haiphong in 11 days like the U.S did in 1972, come back here and start talking about "carpet bombing every Vietnamese city". China for sure will have minimal casualties because you guys won't have enough jets/copters/pilots to lose like the U.S. Air warfare is not your speciality, you're just a rookie in this category

List of Vietnam War flying aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## BoQ77

rott said:


> I am actually waiting for you Vietnamese to drop one nuke on any major Chinese city, and the most that would happen is, Vietnamese turning into an *Endangered Species*.
> What are you waiting for? We are waiting. Remember the second strike from China and it will be the total *Annihilation of Vietnam*.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need to even argue with them. Let them build and let them drop just ONE tiny nuke.
> Later the kids of our future generation will be taught, there was once a jungle country called Vietnam which has seized to exist because of it's aggressive foreign policy.



Rott ... China is offering to us the same. Confusing what you talking about ?


----------



## ViXuyen

BoQ77 said:


> Rott ... China is offering to us the same. Confusing what you talking about ?


If they try to nuke us, all the radiation falls back to them and take them down along with us; any of their surviving population will turn into another "special" speci


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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> he, he, What China do in Pak now is same tactic what China did in Vietnam war, China has built a roads from China in to soil of north provinces of Vietnam. 1979 China invaded in to Vietnam in this roads .
> 
> For Vietnam, intervention of USA and China is not permited to happen again. Vietnam join to ASEAN and we can change the policy system as slowly, step and step to become democracy sociality.


You try too hard to smear our relation with Pakistan, my two-face Vietnamese friend. We know you are not trust worthy. Remember both us and USA hate you during the 1970s because of your aggression against neighbors and your ambition to rule over Southeast Asia. Unfortunately today you will not have that opportunity and you will face fierce competition. Even in ASEAN, you are just one player and is not view as a leader. That leader role will be Indonesia in the long term. If you try to dominate Southeast Asia again, it will not be only us, but USA and Southeast Asia leaders will reign in to destroy you. Remember sanction in 1980s? You are just a weak country without anything good but cheap labor. In fact, numerous companies have complains of the laziness from your labor worker.



Rechoice said:


> he, he, What China do in Pak now is same tactic what China did in Vietnam war, China has built a roads from China in to soil of north provinces of Vietnam. 1979 China invaded in to Vietnam in this roads .
> 
> For Vietnam, intervention of USA and China is not permited to happen again. Vietnam join to ASEAN and we can change the policy system as slowly, step and step to become democracy sociality.


You try too hard to smear our relation with Pakistan, my two-face Vietnamese friend. We know you are not trust worthy. Remember both us and USA hate you during the 1970s because of your aggression against neighbors and your ambition to rule over Southeast Asia. Unfortunately today you will not have that opportunity and you will face fierce competition. Even in ASEAN, you are just one player and is not view as a leader. That leader role will be Indonesia in the long term. If you try to dominate Southeast Asia again, it will not be only us, but USA and Southeast Asia leaders will reign in to destroy you. Remember sanction in 1980s? You are just a weak country without anything good but cheap labor. In fact, numerous companies have complains of the laziness from your labor worker.

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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> You try too hard to smear our relation with Pakistan, my two-face Vietnamese friend. We know you are not trust worthy. Remember both us and USA hate you during the 1970s because of your aggression against neighbors and your ambition to rule over Southeast Asia. Unfortunately today you will not have that opportunity and you will face fierce competition. Even in ASEAN, you are just one player and is not view as a leader. That leader role will be Indonesia in the long term. If you try to dominate Southeast Asia again, it will not be only us, but USA and Southeast Asia leaders will reign in to destroy you. Remember sanction in 1980s? You are just a weak country without anything good but cheap labor. In fact, numerous companies have complains of the laziness from your labor worker.
> 
> 
> You try too hard to smear our relation with Pakistan, my two-face Vietnamese friend. We know you are not trust worthy. Remember both us and USA hate you during the 1970s because of your aggression against neighbors and your ambition to rule over Southeast Asia. Unfortunately today you will not have that opportunity and you will face fierce competition. Even in ASEAN, you are just one player and is not view as a leader. That leader role will be Indonesia in the long term. If you try to dominate Southeast Asia again, it will not be only us, but USA and Southeast Asia leaders will reign in to destroy you. Remember sanction in 1980s? You are just a weak country without anything good but cheap labor. In fact, numerous companies have complains of the laziness from your labor worker.



How many face China has ? In the past China showed of that you have too many face. In Vietnam war China would like to fight against US to last Vietnamese, used China position in Vietnam war to do bargain with US 1972. In fact China liked to take hegemony in region after USA withdrawal from Vietnam. Reunification of Vietnam is not target of China policy. So why China backed Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnam from 1976 to 1978.

China changed his face very fast. Pak should learn a lesson soon or late.

You lie, Vietnam joined to ASEAN is not for an intention to get the position to be leader of region and Vietnamese labor worker is not lazy, it depended on how the company paid and treated them.

turn back to topic : China must keep up with Russia and forget what happent in 1969.

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## BoQ77

Rechoice said:


> turn back to topic : China must keep up with Russia and forget what happent in 1969.



Do you know why China focus on multi rocket launchers development after 1969 conflict with Soviet Union ?
My father told me the fact cause me related to 1979 conflict, when Soviet Union deployed many multi rocket launchers to Vietnam hill levels by helicopters ... but they are never used for that conflict ...

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## Sanchez

Why are so many mad dogs from vn? This is a Russia China thread!

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## Rechoice

Sanchez said:


> Why are so many mad dogs from vn? This is a Russia China thread!



Read how mad dog from China is barking on us first in post N. 2. followed the thread post.

Chinese Tiger 1986 said:


> :The problem is that we are not interested in Pinoy or Viet's land.
> 
> China is more interested about Taiwan and Mongolia so far.



In fact China robbed our islands.

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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> How many face China has ? In the past China showed of that you have too many face. In Vietnam war China would like to fight against US to last Vietnamese, used China position in Vietnam war to do bargain with US 1972. In fact China liked to take hegemony in region after USA withdrawal from Vietnam. Reunification of Vietnam is not target of China policy. So why China backed Khmer Rouge attacked Vietnam from 1976 to 1978.
> 
> China changed his face very fast. Pak should learn a lesson soon or late.
> 
> You lie, Vietnam joined to ASEAN is not for an intention to get the position to be leader of region and Vietnamese labor worker is not lazy, it depended on how the company paid and treated them.
> 
> turn back to topic : China must keep up with Russia and forget what happent in 1969.


This is why people often look down on you Vietnamese because you lack intelligent on historical knowledge, especially major events that led to the reason why we allied with the West. You are probably too stupid but I will advice you to learn the reason for the Sino-Soviet Split.

The Sino-Soviet Split not only lead us to ally with the West to destroy the Soviet but also affect our relation with you and other communist states throughout the world. For a small free education from me to you, I will teach you a little bit.

I admit we were very stupid at the time, believing wholeheartedly in Communist ideology and hated anything to do with Western capitalism. The Communist brotherhood at the time led us to engage in the Korean and Vietnam War. We felt betray when the Soviet Union, one of the head, if not the leader of Communist movement, decided to cuddle up with the West in late 1950s when Khrushchev opened talks with the USA in his pursuit of "peaceful coexistence" policy. This policy really **** up our mindset and we were stuck to fending off ourselves in the name of communism. With the Sino-Soviet split tension rising, it triggered an effect on all levels of relation. At this point, we had no choice but to ally with the West to destroy the Soviet Union.

You, of course being a slave of both, betrayed us and side with the Soviet. I don't blame you, though. Soviet Union is a superpower communist while we were weak and "confusing" with ideology. I also don't blame the Soviet for doing what's best for their national interest which is moving away from hardcore communism to a semi-communism, "peaceful coexistence" with Western capitalism. I only blame ourselves for believing in this nonsensical communist brotherhood. That was one of the main reason we are no longer engaged in ideological battle worldwide and shift our foreign policy from engagement to non-interference. The non-interference policy allows us to maneuver and works with any countries regardless of their ideologies.

Vietnamese workers are known as lazy. This is why foreign companies didn't want to open factory in your country but rather China. Up recently with no choices due to our govt policy shifting away from export to domestic consumption, the rise of wage, foreign companies began to shift to VN seeking cheap labor. However, it is remain to be seen if you have the hardworking ethic of Chinese people. My guess if they will run eventually because Vietnamese only known to complain, work little but ask for higher wage, and tend to arrive late to work.

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## he-man

xunzi said:


> This is why people often look down on you Vietnamese because you lack intelligent on historical knowledge, especially major events that led to the reason why we allied with the West. You are probably too stupid but I will advice you to learn the reason for the Sino-Soviet Split.
> 
> The Sino-Soviet Split not only lead us to ally with the West to destroy the Soviet but also affect our relation with you and other communist states throughout the world. For a small free education from me to you, I will teach you a little bit.
> 
> I admit we were very stupid at the time, believing wholeheartedly in Communist ideology and hated anything to do with Western capitalism. The Communist brotherhood at the time led us to engage in the Korean and Vietnam War. We felt betray when the Soviet Union, one of the head, if not the leader of Communist movement, decided to cuddle up with the West in late 1950s when Khrushchev opened talks with the USA in his pursuit of "peaceful coexistence" policy. This policy really **** up our mindset and we were stuck to fending off ourselves in the name of communism. With the Sino-Soviet split tension rising, it triggered an effect on all levels of relation. At this point, we had no choice but to ally with the West to destroy the Soviet Union.
> 
> You, of course being a slave of both, betrayed us and side with the Soviet. I don't blame you, though. Soviet Union is a superpower communist while we were weak and "confusing" with ideology. I also don't blame the Soviet for doing what's best for their national interest which is moving away from hardcore communism to a semi-communism, "peaceful coexistence" with Western capitalism. I only blame ourselves for believing in this nonsensical communist brotherhood. That was one of the main reason we are no longer engaged in ideological battle worldwide and shift our foreign policy from engagement to non-interference. The non-interference policy allows us to maneuver and works with any countries regardless of their ideologies.
> 
> Vietnamese workers are known as lazy. This is why foreign companies didn't want to open factory in your country but rather China. Up recently with no choices due to our govt policy shifting away from export to domestic consumption, the rise of wage, foreign companies began to shift to VN seeking cheap labor. However, it is remain to be seen if you have the hardworking ethic of Chinese people. My guess if they will run eventually because Vietnamese only known to complain, work little but ask for higher wage, and tend to arrive late to work.



What are ur views on india-china relationship in the future?


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## xunzi

he-man said:


> What are ur views on india-china relationship in the future?


We have a very good idea of what India wants but choose not to give what India wants. The key is we want to remain at tension with India, just as we want to do with these troublemakers in Japan and Philippines. It's good for our national interest to remain in a constant state of tension. So we will cooperate where there is mutual benefit such as economies and compete in areas of military and political. In the international arena, actually India copies our style of diplomacy. We know that. India looks at the success of China diplomacy and modernization and you guys want to mimic it. It won't be easy because the West are aware of this tactic and try to pressure India into picking a side.

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## he-man

xunzi said:


> We have a very good idea of what India wants but choose not to give what India wants. The key is we want to remain at tension with India, just as we want to do with these troublemakers in Japan and Philippines. It's good for our national interest to remain in a constant state of tension. So we will cooperate where there is mutual benefit such as economies and compete in areas of military and political. In the international arena, actually India copies our style of diplomacy. We know that. India looks at the success of China diplomacy and modernization and you guys want to mimic it. It won't be easy because the West are aware of this tactic and try to pressure India into picking a side.



U should hope we don't actually pick a side


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## cirr

*China to Invest $5Bln in Russia's Far East*

By Alexander Panin
Apr. 13 2014 16:37
Last edited 16:38






Andrei Makhonin / VedomostiA freight train riding on Russia’s rail network, part of which is being modernized to faciliate trade with Asia.


Amid increasing tensions with the West, Russia is making progress on long-awaited deals with its eastern neighbor, China.

The China Development Bank has confirmed its plans to invest $5 billion in Russia's Far East, news reports said Friday.

Investments will be channeled to regional economic zones and will finance large infrastructure projects, Russia's Far East Development Ministry said.

"Russia is ready to take on the transit cargo coming from the Asia-Pacific region to Europe, in line with the plans of the Chinese government to reanimate the Great Silk Way," said Far East Development Minister Alexander Galushka.

The new silk way is not meant to be a physical replica of the ancient route that connected China and the Mediterranean through Persia, but is rather a general concept of a land and sea transport corridor that has the same purpose — to link Asia and Europe, Galushka said.

The Trans-Siberian and Baikal-Amur railroads — in which Russia is investing $18 billion to modernize — could make up the land part of the route, reinforced by a seaway to the north.

"Speaking of the silk way, it is necessary to mention the Northern Sea Route, which has a considerable advantage over the traditional seaways connecting Europe and Asia [via the Suez Canal]," the Far East development minister said.

The route that crosses the icy waters of Russia's part of the Arctic is considerably shorter and, besides time, saves the expense of tons of diesel fuel. According to Galushka, the northern route is on average 25 percent cheaper than the traditional one through the Suez.

China's interest in the route is mounting. In the summer of 2013, Russian icebreakers led the first Chinese commercial ship through the Northern Sea Route to Rotterdam. It reached the destination 15 days earlier than it usually takes to go from China to Europe.

Beijing's interest in the Far East comes as trade between Russia and China is growing rapidly. The annual trade turnover is currently at almost $90 billion and is expected to surpass $100 billion in the coming years.

Another strong point of contact, besides transport, is energy relations. On Wednesday, Russia's state-owned energy giant Gazprom announced that the long-discussed deal to supply gas to China is poised to be finally inked in May, when President Vladimir Putin plans to visit the country.

Under the preliminary terms of the contract, Russia is slated to supply China with 68 billion cubic meters of gas per year, which is slightly more than it would transport to Europe through the South Stream pipeline.

"The Far East investment agreement and the upcoming gas contract with China are not connected, it just so happened that long years of work bear fruit simultaneously," said Gleb Ivashentsov, deputy head of the Russian Research Center for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum.

"But at the same time this is a sign for Europe that Russia has economic partners elsewhere as well. Namely, in the east," Ivashentsov said.

Besides China, Russia is teaming up with South Korea and Japan. Although these countries maintain close ties with the West, they have not yet supported the sanctions imposed on Russia, Ivashentsov added.

China to Invest $5Bln in Russia's Far East | Business | The Moscow Times


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## cirr

*Russia says long-sought China gas supply deal is close*

Wed Apr 9, 2014 11:21am EDT


* China, Russia discuss gas deal for at least a decade

* Russia sees progress on price at China talks

* Moscow hopes to sign gas deal with China in May (Edits, adds talks on Ukraine crisis)

By Katya Golubkova and Vladimir Soldatkin

MOSCOW, April 9 (Reuters) - Russia said on Wednesday it was close to signing a deal to sell natural gas to China, a long-sought agreement which President Vladimir Putin could use to show Western sanctions over Crimea cannot isolate his country.

The deal is the Holy Grail for Russia after at least 10 years of talks and Moscow hopes it can be signed when Putin visits China next month.

There was no immediate comment by China, whose negotiating position has been strengthened by Western threats to impose more sanctions on Russia if Moscow sends its armed forces into eastern Ukraine following its annexation of Crimea.

As talks between state-controlled Gazprom and Chinese officials continued in China, Arkady Dvorkovich, a deputy prime minister, said the sides were close to sealing a deal that would also involve construction of a pipeline to carry 38 billion cubic metres (bcm) of gas a year.

"Regarding Gazprom's gas contract, the sides are close to agreement ... The only issue remaining is ... the price," he was quoted as saying by Itar-Tass news agency in Beijing. "We really hope that the contract will be signed in May."

Gazprom said separately that there had been progress at the talks on the price China would pay for the Russian gas and that it expected the contract to come into force by the end of 2014. It gave no further details of the negotiations.

Industry sources said before the latest round of talks that Gazprom could try to secure a deal by proposing a lower price for the gas in exchange for China handing over billions of dollars in upfront payments.

The sources said Gazprom was hoping for a price of $10-$11 per mmBtu (million British thermal units) from China. China is believed to pay $9 per mmBtu to Turkmenistan, the former Soviet state in Central Asia that beat Gazprom to the Chinese market.

The deal would help Gazprom reduce its dependency on exports to Europe, which gets around a third of its gas needs from Russia. Half of this amount comes via Ukraine, which is at odds with Moscow over gas payments as well as being locked in a political standoff over the Crimea region.

Ukraine owes Gazprom $2.2 billion for gas and failed to meet a deadline this week for paying its March gas bill.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a government meeting there were grounds to make Kiev pay in advance for its gas, but Putin suggested holding off on such a move for now.

Gazprom has increased the gas price for Ukraine by 80 percent since the neighboring former Soviet republic ousted Moscow-backed President Viktor Yanukovich on Feb. 22 and installed a Westward-looking government.

Kiev said the price rise was a politically motivated move to punish it for pursuing closer ties with the European Union.



RUSSIA LOOKS EAST

The crisis in relations with Kiev has made bypassing Ukraine by using different pipelines, or reorienting trade to the East, priorities for Putin, and Russia has been working hard to develop relations with Asia.

Russia's desire to find new markets has also strengthened Beijing's negotiating position on the price at talks involving China National Petroleum Corp.

Gazprom has been in painstaking talks over the last 10 years about shipping gas to China and has been unable to agree on pricing.

Russia ships around 16 percent of its crude exports to Asia, while gas volumes are small, limited only to super-cooled seaborne gas.

By 2035, Moscow plans to double the share of oil flows and send a third of its gas exports eastwards, though its plans are constrained by the lack of necessary infrastructure.

Russia, which extracted an average 10.56 million barrels of oil per day last month, exports around 4.4 million bpd of oil in total. It is gradually reducing west-bound flows in favour of Asia.

Sanctions imposed on Russia over its annexation of Crimea are mainly limited to individuals but the EU has stepped up discussion of options to reduce its dependence on Russian energy.

Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak said on Wednesday that Moscow planned to expand its East Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline to 80 million tonnes (1.6 million barrels per day) by 2020, as part of plans to diversify away from Europe. (Editing by Elizabeth Piper, Timothy Heritage and Dale Hudson)

UPDATE 3-Russia says long-sought China gas supply deal is close| Reuters


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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> This is why people often look down on you Vietnamese because you lack intelligent on historical knowledge, especially major events that led to the reason why we allied with the West. You are probably too stupid but I will advice you to learn the reason for the Sino-Soviet Split.
> 
> The Sino-Soviet Split not only lead us to ally with the West to destroy the Soviet but also affect our relation with you and other communist states throughout the world. For a small free education from me to you, I will teach you a little bit.
> 
> I admit we were very stupid at the time, believing wholeheartedly in Communist ideology and hated anything to do with Western capitalism. The Communist brotherhood at the time led us to engage in the Korean and Vietnam War. We felt betray when the Soviet Union, one of the head, if not the leader of Communist movement, decided to cuddle up with the West in late 1950s when Khrushchev opened talks with the USA in his pursuit of "peaceful coexistence" policy. This policy really **** up our mindset and we were stuck to fending off ourselves in the name of communism. With the Sino-Soviet split tension rising, it triggered an effect on all levels of relation. At this point, we had no choice but to ally with the West to destroy the Soviet Union.
> 
> You, of course being a slave of both, betrayed us and side with the Soviet. I don't blame you, though. Soviet Union is a superpower communist while we were weak and "confusing" with ideology. I also don't blame the Soviet for doing what's best for their national interest which is moving away from hardcore communism to a semi-communism, "peaceful coexistence" with Western capitalism. I only blame ourselves for believing in this nonsensical communist brotherhood. That was one of the main reason we are no longer engaged in ideological battle worldwide and shift our foreign policy from engagement to non-interference. The non-interference policy allows us to maneuver and works with any countries regardless of their ideologies.
> 
> Vietnamese workers are known as lazy. This is why foreign companies didn't want to open factory in your country but rather China. Up recently with no choices due to our govt policy shifting away from export to domestic consumption, the rise of wage, foreign companies began to shift to VN seeking cheap labor. However, it is remain to be seen if you have the hardworking ethic of Chinese people. My guess if they will run eventually because Vietnamese only known to complain, work little but ask for higher wage, and tend to arrive late to work.



You said " I admit we were very stupid at the time, " its true mentality of Chinese in the past. The Chinese don't have intelligent on historical knowledge to look down at Vietnamese. In fact Chinese were considered as betrayal to Soviet Union and Socialist countries who were by side with you in WW II and cold war, it included Vietnam. and so Vietnamese look down at you.

China made a conflict with Soviet Union 1969 to have a reason to change China's policy to the Wests, to be "slaves" of USA base on your idea. I think Vietnamese were shock when USA attacked on us brutally in Quang Tri in South Vietnam and bombarded Hanoi 1972, in the same time China welcomed Nixon in Peking.

In the Geneva confrence 1954, china disclosed his traitor mentality when China discussed secretly with France in back of Vietnam.

What you said about lazinees of labour workers in Vietnam, it is troll of uneducated Chinese. Why we could export to the world textile and electronic products which belong to biggest USS$ revenue of us.

I ask you: Why in time of "Gong she ren min" in China, 30 million Chinese were dead in consequence of famine ? were Chinese lazy ?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> You said " I admit we were very stupid at the time, " its true mentality of Chinese in the past. The Chinese don't have intelligent on historical knowledge to look down at Vietnamese. In fact Chinese were considered as betrayal to Soviet Union and Socialist countries who were by side with you in WW II and cold war, it included Vietnam. and so Vietnamese look down at you.
> 
> China made a conflict with Soviet Union 1969 to have a reason to change China's policy to the Wests, to be "slaves" of USA base on your idea. I think Vietnamese were shock when USA attacked on us brutally in Quang Tri in South Vietnam and bombarded Hanoi 1972, in the same time China welcomed Nixon in Peking.
> 
> In the Geneva confrence 1954, china disclosed his traitor mentality when China discussed secretly with France in back of Vietnam.
> 
> What you said about lazinees of labour workers in Vietnam, it is troll of uneducated Chinese. Why we could export to the world textile and electronic products which belong to biggest USS$ revenue of us.
> 
> I ask you: Why in time of "Gong she ren min" in China, 30 million Chinese were dead in consequence of famine ? were Chinese lazy ?



China has developed its own civilization, does Vietnam have its own?

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## ViXuyen

xunzi said:


> Vietnamese workers are known as lazy. This is why foreign companies didn't want to open factory in your country but rather China. Up recently with no choices due to our govt policy shifting away from export to domestic consumption, the rise of wage, foreign companies began to shift to VN seeking cheap labor. However, it is remain to be seen if you have the hardworking ethic of Chinese people. My guess if they will run eventually because Vietnamese only known to complain, work little but ask for higher wage, and tend to arrive late to work.


If Chinese want to work as slaves with low wages then that's your choice, we can't be like you Our productivity can't be high if they pay us low.

Yes, we complain, lazy, arrive late at work, go on strike a lot but FDI enterprises are keep coming to Vietnam and you know WHY? You get what you pay for. You can't expect people to give you top notch services while paying them peauts...I know you Chinese can because you will do anything because you have a job......but we can't because we have something called self-respect. Pay us right and we will give you the right services, pay us peanuts and you'll get xhit services from us.

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## Rechoice

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China has developed its own civilization, does Vietnam have its own?



today, china copied every thing from West, Policy from Russia, Economy from Capitalism what Vietnam did.


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## armchairPrivate

*China must keep up with Russia!*

In what way?
Down more stoli?



Rechoice said:


> today, china copied every thing from West, Policy from Russia, Economy from Capitalism what Vietnam did.



Meanwhile, the Chinese are taking the Vietminh women by the truckload to China having with them. The Vietminh are holding their dicks.

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> *China must keep up with Russia!*
> 
> In what way?
> Down more stoli?
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, the Chinese are taking the Vietminh women by the truckload to China having with them. The Vietminh are holding their dicks.



You are uneducated Chinese boy with false flag. Don't troll on women. I can post here what Chinese women did in Africa and Europa.

@MOD. Pls do some thing with him.


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> You are uneducated Chinese boy with false flag. Don't troll on women. I can post here what Chinese women did in Africa and Europa.
> 
> @MOD. Pls do some thing with him.



Down more Stoli is troll on women? Do you even know what Stoli is? What a banana eating monkey?

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> Down more Stoli is troll on women? Do you even know what Stoli is? What a banana eating monkey?



I don't care what uneducated Chinese boy drink when you washing plated in Canada do, it could be "xiao xian" water.


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> I don't care what uneducated Chinese boy drink when you washing plated in Canada do, it could be "xiao xian".


I am having Stoli. 
YOU? Ice cooled cow urine?

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> I am having Stoli.
> YOU? Ice cooled cow urine?



You have to take same cow urine, its traditional Chinese medicament in China for some one when his head is getting warm and troll on women.


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> You have to take same cow urine, its traditional Chinese medicament in China for some one when his head is getting warm and troll on women.


I take blue pills.
Cow urine is for brownies.

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> I take blue pills.
> Cow urine is for brownies.



Cow is not existed in Vietnam. Take it for you. Its Chinese traditional medicament is better for you than blue pill, kid.


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## armchairPrivate

Funny. Cows do exist in Vietminh country. I know for certain water buffaloes, yellow cows work in the rice paddies in the Vietminh land.
Since you know so much about Chinese traditional medicine, are you sure your mother has not been with a Chinese medicine man?



Rechoice said:


> Cow is not existed in Vietnam. Take it for you. Its Chinese traditional medicament is better for you than blue pill, kid.


Funny. Cows do exist in Vietminh country. I know for certain water buffaloes, yellow cows work in the rice paddies in the Vietminh land.
Since you know so much about Chinese traditional medicine, are you sure your mother has not been with a Chinese medicine man?

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> Funny. Cows do exist in Vietminh country. I know for certain water buffaloes, yellow cows work in the rice paddies in the Vietminh land.
> Since you know so much about Chinese traditional medicine, are you sure your mother has not been with a Chinese medicine man?
> 
> 
> Funny. Cows do exist in Vietminh country. I know for certain water buffaloes, yellow cows work in the rice paddies in the Vietminh land.
> Since you know so much about Chinese traditional medicine, are you sure your mother has not been with a Chinese medicine man?



typing fail. such cow urine for treatment is not exist in Vietnam. You mother take it, its chinese medicin. is it really good for your mother health ?

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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> no need to run amok. you can stop the PLA.
> times have long gone when Vietnam forcefully civilized the barbarians.
> 
> today every nation in SE Asia is free in the decision if they want to join Vietnamese "friendship club". Sorry, China as a country in East Asia is not eligible. You stay out.


Haha!

"Free in the decision if they want to join Viet F C" ,this does not sound the same with "unite the sub-mekong".

Am I wrong ?

BTW , what is your so called "friendship club" ?

And what is your purpose of this club ?

You guys will share your cookie with others ? Or contain china like "NICEGUY"said ?

And what make you guys so confident about your capability to organise and run such kind of international organisation ?

Because you have the Third military force ? really FUnny!



NiceGuy said:


> Mr.Thaksin protected by Mr. Hun-Sen who is called "One eyed lackey of the Vietnamese" is the Key to unite Thailand.



Seriously!

You really think Viet is powerful enough to unite or annex another sovereign state ? 

or unite another nation just because of one or two politicans ?


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## rott

Rechoice said:


> today, china copied every thing from West, Policy from Russia, Economy from Capitalism what Vietnam did.


Everyone copies from each other, otherwise, how would you reproduce? Finger?


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## Rechoice

rott said:


> Everyone copies from each other, otherwise, how would you reproduce? Finger?



meaningless troll.


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## rott

Rechoice said:


> meaningless troll.


You trolled, I trolled, I just copied from you. 
Original troll = You.

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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> You said " I admit we were very stupid at the time, " its true mentality of Chinese in the past. The Chinese don't have intelligent on historical knowledge to look down at Vietnamese. In fact Chinese were considered as betrayal to Soviet Union and Socialist countries who were by side with you in WW II and cold war, it included Vietnam. and so Vietnamese look down at you.
> 
> China made a conflict with Soviet Union 1969 to have a reason to change China's policy to the Wests, to be "slaves" of USA base on your idea. I think Vietnamese were shock when USA attacked on us brutally in Quang Tri in South Vietnam and bombarded Hanoi 1972, in the same time China welcomed Nixon in Peking.
> 
> In the Geneva confrence 1954, china disclosed his traitor mentality when China discussed secretly with France in back of Vietnam.
> 
> What you said about lazinees of labour workers in Vietnam, it is troll of uneducated Chinese. Why we could export to the world textile and electronic products which belong to biggest USS$ revenue of us.
> 
> I ask you: Why in time of "Gong she ren min" in China, 30 million Chinese were dead in consequence of famine ? were Chinese lazy ?


You are too stupid man. I already explain to you the main cause of the Sino-Soviet split and it ain't us who betray communism and socialism. It was the Soviet. In turn, we seek to destroy those who betray communism. 

Again, learn more history on Sino-Soviet relation and the reason for the split. Don't waste my time until you do.



ViXuyen said:


> If Chinese want to work as slaves with low wages then that's your choice, we can't be like you Our productivity can't be high if they pay us low.
> 
> Yes, we complain, lazy, arrive late at work, go on strike a lot but FDI enterprises are keep coming to Vietnam and you know WHY? You get what you pay for. You can't expect people to give you top notch services while paying them peauts...I know you Chinese can because you will do anything because you have a job......but we can't because we have something called self-respect. Pay us right and we will give you the right services, pay us peanuts and you'll get xhit services from us.


Self-respect, my ***. LOL Trust me when the mass of your population are uneducated, you don't ask but only do what others give you. You will always be a shit country economically until you change your mindset. Luckily for you, your government recognized somewhat and tried to mimic China strategy by having "pro-foreign" investment. The foreigners ain't coming to your country for your "skill". They come because your people are numerous and cheap, especially after China is moving out of this cheap manufacturing hole.

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## Grand Historian

rott said:


> Everyone copies from each other, otherwise, how would you reproduce? Finger?


Just like how Vietnam emulated Chinese culture and civilization which they nowdays claim as their own

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## Edison Chen

Grand Historian said:


> Just like how Vietnam emulated Chinese culture and civilization which they nowdays claim as their own



Vietnam doesn't have the power to do so. I think Koreans are really better at this. They are coping everything from ancient China, the culture most.

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## Grand Historian

Edison Chen said:


> Vietnam doesn't have the power to do so. I think Koreans are really better at this. They are coping everything from ancient China, the culture most.


And they claim it as their own and that China copied them

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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> You are too stupid man. I already explain to you the main cause of the Sino-Soviet split and it ain't us who betray communism and socialism. It was the Soviet. In turn, we seek to destroy those who betray communism.
> 
> Again, learn more history on Sino-Soviet relation and the reason for the split. Don't waste my time until you do.
> 
> e.



China criticized Soviet Union about socialism and for what related to with personal cult of Stalin in the past, then Soviet union was called by Chinese as Revisionist, 

but there was very serous when China attacked on Soviet Union 1969. This comedian made by China to show that Soviet Union is China's enemy. Who was very happy about that ? Uncle Sam.

In fact co-existence policy of Soviet Union, China has been copied it, when Mao welcomed Nixon in Peking 1972. There is main reason for Sino-Soviet split is that China would like to change policy to a side with USA and not for " who betray communism and socialism".

It was main target of China in cold war when China made it very noisy about Sino-China split and attack on Soviet Union.

It was very funny story, stupied !


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> typing fail. such cow urine for treatment is not exist in Vietnam. You mother take it, its chinese medicin. is it really good for your mother health ?



Sad to tell you, my mother is dead. So your cow urine didn't work as you stated. You are not only a cow urine drinker, you are also a snake oil salesman.

Anyway, I got a private message from the mods *wink*wink*, so I don't really want to carry on with this nonsense with you. Drink your cow urine and be happy. Oh and don't forget to add a few ice cubes. It will make the CU taste much more refreshing since you guys must be getting hot these days.

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## bolo

ViXuyen said:


> When China can deliver 20,000 tons of TNT over Hanoi and Haiphong in 11 days like the U.S did in 1972, come back here and start talking about "carpet bombing every Vietnamese city". China for sure will have minimal casualties because you guys won't have enough jets/copters/pilots to lose like the U.S. Air warfare is not your speciality, you're just a rookie in this category
> 
> List of Vietnam War flying aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
What's the point of this? So VC claimed they destroyed this amount of US military planes. Assuming it is true, so what? US's economy is # 1, where does Vietcong economy rank?

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## xunzi

Rechoice said:


> China criticized Soviet Union about socialism and for what related to with personal cult of Stalin in the past, then Soviet union was called by Chinese as Revisionist,
> 
> but there was very serous when China attacked on Soviet Union 1969. This comedian made by China to show that Soviet Union is China's enemy. Who was very happy about that ? Uncle Sam.
> 
> In fact co-existence policy of Soviet Union, China has been copied it, when Mao welcomed Nixon in Peking 1972. There is main reason for Sino-Soviet split is that China would like to change policy to a side with USA and not for " who betray communism and socialism".
> 
> It was main target of China in cold war when China made it very noisy about Sino-China split and attack on Soviet Union.
> 
> It was very funny story, stupied !


Let me teach you some more.

I want to REMIND you it wasn't us who betrayed communism and cuddled up with the West Capitalists first. It was the Soviet Union who betrayed the idea of a communist world, a brotherhood of socialism where we stand together to resist the movement of capitalism and imperialism. At the time of ideological battle, there can only be one that can live on earth, either communism or capitalism. Having the peaceful coexistence means a betrayal to this idea of a socialist world and allows capitalists to live which opposite of a real communist world. 

SEARCH AND LEARN, my friend. Please take my advice to learn first before talking back to me. I don't have time to teach you all the times. I want good debate, not teaching kid first so he understands and argue objectively and logically.

----------------

Sino-Soviet Split

The political split between the Soviet Union and China began when the relatively harmonious relations between the two countries became acrimonious in 1959 after Khrushchev opened talks with the USA in pursuit of his policy of “*peaceful coexistence*”. In 1960, Khrushchev withdrew Soviet technical advisers from China, and in 1961 launched a public polemic against China’s ally Albania. In 1962, the dispute erupted into mutual abuse and hostile military actions and most significantly, splits in almost all the Communist Parties across the capitalist world.

Background

Socialism in One Country: At first, the significance of ‘socialism in one country’ for Communist Parties outside of the USSR was that they were obliged to subordinate their own interests to those of the Soviet Union, to defend and build socialism in the USSR, an expression of working class internationalism. However, it became apparent that it was equally possible to ‘build socialism’ in China, Italy or Britain, and in the early 1950s all the CPs adopted the “Our-land Road to Socialism” as their national program and led to the growth of “*Euro-communism*”.

Twentieth Congress of the CPSU: In the wake of the Twentieth Congress of the CPSU, the Chinese and Soviet bureaucracies were more and more at odds with one another. The Chinese leadership was fearful of the instability which could follow from Khrushchev’s denunciation of Stalin and the promised liberalisation.

The Differences: The main historical differences between the Chinese and Russian Revolutions at this time were:


The different level of development of the productive forces – _China_ was more backward, with little heavy industry and only a small agricultural surplus. In 1956-1960, the_ USSR_ was at a stage in the development of the productive forces at which national resources were no longer able to develop the economy in isolation from the world economy, and the capacity ofbureaucratic command to develop the economy was becoming exhausted (thus the promises of “liberalisation”), while China was at an earlier stage in the construction of a *planned economy*; Khrushchev adopted the policy of “peaceful coexistence” to defuse the Cold War and open up trade with the West;
The dominant role of the *peasantry* in the Chinese revolution, as opposed to the Russian Revolution. The working class was the leading force in both cases, but the Russian Revolution was made in the cities, and was taken out to the countryside; the Chinese Revolution was made in the countryside, and rolled in from the countryside to the cities;
The different perspective in relation to imperialism – the USSR now felt less threatened, both internally and externally, but wanted trade with the West, while the Chinese rightly felt threatened by imperialism, with Chiang Kai Shek and his Army just across the Formosa Straits; a vast American Army garrisoned in Korea, and more were pouring into Vietnam..
In 1958, the Chinese had launched the Great Leap Forward to address the backwardness of their economy and prospect that they may have to “go it alone” with Soviet support.

Maoism

At the time of the international split in the Communist Parties, Maoism was clearly identifiable as a_left_ tendency in Stalinism but embraced a wide range of political tendencies in its growth and differentiation.

The fundamental thesis of Maoism is that the USSR had been transformed into a capitalist stateby the election of Nikita Khrushchev as its national leader. The other distinguishing feature derives from the nature of the Chinese revolution – a national democratic revolution, led by the Communist Party, based on a peasant army, which grew over into the establishment of a deformed workers’ state resting on the peasant masses.

“Soviet-Social imperialism": The Chinese leadership felt obliged to carry their polemic against Khrushchev’s policies to the point of ascribing a _bourgeois_ class origin to them, thus closing off all possibility of compromise, with fraternal debate replaced by “class struggle”. The Chinese characterised Khrushchev as a ‘capitalist roader’ and the Soviet Union as a ‘social-imperialist’ state. In its foreign policy, and in the propaganda of their sympathisers in the capitalist world, the USSR was portrayed as a worse enemy of the working class than imperialism itself, the ‘greatest danger to world peace’, etc. This criticism was based _not_ on any analysis of changes in the relations of production in the Soviet Union, or the nature of the state, but simply on the policies of the government.

Communists in the capitalist countries who sympathised with the Chinese CP and split from the pro-Moscow factions, regarded their former comrades, not simply as ‘mistaken’, but as representatives of an imperialist power. Under these conditions, there was no possibility of a united front in the interests of the working class.

It was not long before the need to fight ‘Soviet social imperialism’ meant China making its _own_diplomatic overtures to the US, and making deals with the US aimed against any national liberation movement which chose to remain within the orbit of ‘social imperialism’ and accept aid from the USSR.

This diplomatic struggle led to a division of the world’s national liberation movements into rival pro-China and pro-Soviet camps. The USA was able to chose to make it a three-way fight or lend support to one or another party in the internal struggle, choosing their tactics solely in order to maximise the advantage for imperialism and most weaken the liberation struggle. One of the most scandalous episodes in this saga was the Soviet aid that never seemed to be able to reach the Vietnamese because it travelled through China.

The transition from ultra-left denunciation of Khrushchev in favour of a harder anti-imperialist line in 1960, to forming pacts with the US, took place over a decade.

“Bloc of four classes": In 1949, Mao defined the nature of the Chinese Revolution and its task as follows:

‘... the _people’s democratic dictatorship_ ... to deprive the reactionaries of the right to speak and let the people alone have that right. Who are the people? At the present stage in China they are the working class, the peasantry, the urban petit-bourgeoisie and the national bourgeoisie. These classes, led by the working class and the Communist Party, unite to form their own state and elect their own government; they enforce their dictatorship over the running dogs of imperialism – the landlord class and the bureaucratic-bourgeoisie, as well as the representatives of those classes, the Kuomintang reactionaries and their accomplices. ... Democracy is practiced within the ranks of the people, who enjoy the rights of freedom of speech, assembly, association and so on’. [_On the People’s Democratic Dictatorship_, Mao Zedong, March 1949]

The same article also refers to the leadership of the working class, within the alliance between workers and peasants, within the ‘*bloc of four classes*’. In the early 1950s, the “bloc of four classes” meant attempts to incorporate bourgeois representatives in the government, limiting calls for expropriation of capitalists to ‘foreign monopoly capitalism’, in the interests of maintaining a bloc with the ‘national bourgeoisie’. In the 1960s, it meant the subordination of the urban proletariat to the peasantry. In the 1960s, it meant forming Popular Fronts with bourgeois governments at the expense of the working class.

The Chinese Communist Party engaged in very complex political manoeuvring during the 30-year-long national liberation and civil war. Once in power, the tactic of uniting as broad a front as possible against the common enemy was habitually taken to an extreme. Maoism was ‘Popular Front-ism’ _par excellence_.

“Socialism in one commune": While pursuing a policy of national self-sufficiency, the Chinese set out to industrialise by each commune in the countryside establishing its own miniature self-contained economy with its own steel manufacturing, light industry and so on, and dispersing the urban workers and professional people into the countryside to ‘learn from the peasants’. TheGreat Leap Forward organised to implement this policy had led to a famine in which 30 million had died by 1962.

After the fall of Khrushchev in October 1964, his successors made unsuccessful efforts to patch up the split. From that time forward, the Communist Parties of the world were split into two factions. The break with the USSR generated tensions within China as well, and Mao launched theCultural Revolution to consolidate his position.

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> Sad to tell you, my mother is dead. So your cow urine didn't work as you stated. You are not only a cow urine drinker, you are also a snake oil salesman.
> 
> Anyway, I got a private message from the mods *wink*wink*, so I don't really want to carry on with this nonsense with you. Drink your cow urine and be happy. Oh and don't forget to add a few ice cubes. It will make the CU taste much more refreshing since you guys must be getting hot these days.



When you respect your mother, don't insult on mother of others, even though a any woman in this world. they were victim of human traffickers in this world..

You are uneducated boy.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Rechoice said:


> *China criticized Soviet Union about socialism and for what related to with personal cult of Stalin in the past, then Soviet union was called by Chinese as Revisionist,*
> 
> but there was very serous when China attacked on Soviet Union 1969. This comedian made by China to show that Soviet Union is China's enemy. Who was very happy about that ? Uncle Sam.
> 
> In fact co-existence policy of Soviet Union, China has been copied it, when Mao welcomed Nixon in Peking 1972. There is main reason for Sino-Soviet split is that China would like to change policy to a side with USA and not for " who betray communism and socialism".
> 
> It was main target of China in cold war when China made it very noisy about Sino-China split and attack on Soviet Union.
> 
> It was very funny story, stupied !



lol, Mao had defended Stalinism many times despite that Stalin has backstabbed China so many times.

It was USSR who had abandoned the communism and wanted to embrace the western democracy, now they got what they want.

With a weaker economy and industrial capability, USSR has destroyed itself by engaging into a military race with USA.


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## ViXuyen

bolo said:


> What's the point of this? So VC claimed they destroyed this amount of US military planes. Assuming it is true, so what? US's economy is # 1, where does Vietcong economy rank?


Claim? That's the number the U.S admitted losing, kid. Read "Air War in Vietnam by Phil Chinnery" for your further education We claim over 4200 shot down so I guess the real figure is somewhere in the middle..like 4000 eh. Talking about carpet bombing every Vietnamese city, you Chinese do not come even close to anywhere in having that kind of capability; that's the point

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## bolo

ViXuyen said:


> Claim? That's the number the U.S admitted losing, kid. Read "Air War in Vietnam by Phil Chinnery" for your further education We claim over 4200 shot down so I guess the real figure is somewhere in the middle..like 4000 eh. Talking about carpet bombing every Vietnamese city, you Chinese do not come even close to anywhere in having that kind of capability; that's the point


The point is in case you were unable to comprehend is that the US bombed you guys back to 1945. The USA after withdrawal is still #1 in economy and military. They lost 53,000 men but you guys lost over 2m lives and your infrastructure got a beating.
You can say they lost 10trillion $ in equipment, but so what? You guys want them to be your daddy even after they dropped napalm and agent orange in your land and raped your women.
I find it hard to believe you can laugh at the expense of your country people. I. Guess Vietcong are really dumb people. Maybe you will kiss and worship China's *** if they drop a thermonuclear bomb at Ho chi minh city? Vietcong logic at best---laughing at their own suffering

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## ViXuyen

bolo said:


> The point is in case you were unable to comprehend is that the US bombed you guys back to 1945. The USA after withdrawal is still #1 in economy and military. They lost 53,000 men but you guys lost over 2m lives and your infrastructure got a beating.
> You can say they lost 10trillion $ in equipment, but so what? You guys want them to be your daddy even after they dropped napalm and agent orange in your land and raped your women.
> I find it hard to believe you can laugh at the expense of your country people. I. Guess Vietcong are really dumb people. *Maybe you will kiss and worship China's *** if they drop a thermonuclear bomb at Ho chi minh city?* Vietcong logic at best---laughing at their own suffering


We're waiting to worship you guys here, why so long?

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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> When you respect your mother, don't insult on mother of others, even though a any woman in this world. they were victim of human traffickers in this world..
> 
> You are uneducated boy.



Son, not all mothers are to be respected. It doesn't take much to spread your legs (you should try doing it sometimes) and shoot a baby out. Some and many mothers abandon their children, mistreat their children, use their children, sell their children for personal gains. So to blindly say respect mothers is (fill in your own word).


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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> Son, not all mothers are to be respected. It doesn't take much to spread your legs (you should try doing it sometimes) and shoot a baby out. Some and many mothers abandon their children, mistreat their children, use their children, sell their children for personal gains. So to blindly say respect mothers is (fill in your own word).



This is crminal existed every where in the world, we don't care here in our debate. Your troll disclosed that you are uneducated boy. Its true when i could say that you are idot Chinese boy, you didn't studied and making plates washing in Chinese Kitchen in Canada.


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> This is crminal existed every where in the world, we don't care here in our debate. Your troll disclosed that you are uneducated boy. Its true when i could say that you are idot Chinese boy, you didn't studied and making plates washing in Chinese Kitchen in Canada.



It is true that I wash dishes and enjoy doing it.

You do look funny in that get.up. Are you a she.man?

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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> It is true that I wash dishes and enjoy doing it.
> 
> You do look funny in that get.up. Are you a she.man?



OK, focus on your work daily, don't let your owner reject you form this job, what you could earn money to over live the rest days in Canada.


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> OK, focus on your work daily, don't let your owner reject you form this job, what you could earn money to over live the rest days in Canada.


I am the owner.


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## Rechoice

armchairPrivate said:


> I am the owner.



true owner don't do that, you lie.


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## armchairPrivate

Rechoice said:


> true owner don't do that, you lie.



We all chip in. Unlike the Vietminhs.

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## Khan_patriot

China does not have any interest in the Phillipines or anywhere else, it will just claim some territorial water at best...


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## TheTruth

Liberate Philippines and Vietnam into 2-10 countries each instead. Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia will all love it.


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## BoQ77

TheTruth said:


> Liberate Philippines and Vietnam into 2-10 countries each instead. Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia will all love it.



You are so naive.
We ever seen PRC, ROC, TW, Macau, Hongkong ... Tibet, Xinjiang .. Inner Mongolia, Zhuang, Manchuria


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## romia

Viet said:


> wipe out Vietnam?
> isn´t not the dream of Pol Pot in the 1970s?
> 
> you are one of the most reasonable members. what is happening to you?


Face the fact ,monkey ,what we did in 1970s is not our true power ,at least not the whole nation to fight u monkey
If u wanna a try,then prepare to be a true monkey live without food ,maybe only banana in forest that day.



xunzi said:


> What universe do you live in? N.K capability of building a dirty nuke is questionable. I think you need to understand how unclear weapon is made before you open your mouth.


what he need is to mend his brain first



BoQ77 said:


> You are so naive.
> We ever seen PRC, ROC, TW, Macau, Hongkong ... Tibet, Xinjiang .. Inner Mongolia, Zhuang, Manchuria


what u said is trash,but break viet and piony into pieces is possible for us.


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## yusheng

BEIJING, May 1 (Xinhua) -- China and Russia will stage joint naval drills in the East China Sea off Shanghai in late May, China's ministry of national defense has said.
The "Joint Sea-2014" drills are regular exercises held by Chinese and Russian navies, and is aimed to enhance practical cooperation between the two militaries and to strengthen their capabilities to jointly deal with maritime security threats, said a report published on the ministry's website.
China and Russia held similar drills off the coast of Russia's Far East last year, which saw seven vessels from China's North Sea Fleet and South Sea Fleet and 12 vessels from Russia's Pacific Fleet take part in the weeklong exercises.

俄中海军讨论即将举行的联合演习计划 - 新闻 - 政治 - 俄罗斯之声





Фото: РИА Новости
* 中俄“海上协作-2014”联合军演第三次、也是最后一次会议于周一在上海举行。*
俄罗斯海军代表对记者称，在三天内，俄中海军将进行演习地区侦察，明确海军联合行动计划。他们还要协商联合举行体育文化活动事项。
此前，以俄罗斯海军作战训练局局长维克托·科切马佐夫为首的俄罗斯军事代表团已抵达上海参会。在俄罗斯的军事代表团中有海军总司令部官员以及太平洋舰队的代表。
“海上协作-2014”俄中联合演习将于5月底在中国东海海域进行。
全文: http://radiovr.com.cn/news/2014_04_28/271755519/


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## ChineseTiger1986

WASHINGTON – As Russia continues to take strategic initiatives that put the United States on the defensive, Russian President Vladimir Putin is teaming up with China to help construct a trans-oceanic canal in Nicaragua that gives Moscow an even greater foothold in Washington’s area of influence.

The prospect comes as Moscow not only intends more massive arms sales in Latin America but, as WND recently reported, moves to establish a base in Nicaragua besides using existing facilities for refueling for aircraft and port calls for Russian warships.

In addition to Nicaragua, Moscow also is looking to establish bases in Cuba and Venezuela.

The establishment of permanent Russian bases and a major Russian presence in the Western Hemisphere will challenge U.S. policies and threaten to diminish Washington’s influence in the region.

And like a repeat of events leading up to the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, it will give Moscow a basis to stage offensive weapons in the Western Hemisphere, placing another formidable challenge to U.S. homeland defenses from potential missile threats.

*Moving into U.S. turf*

Moscow’s focus has been on areas contiguous to Russia, until now.

“The Russian Federation considers itself to be a global power that is active everywhere and that, whatever Russia’s leadership might publicly claim, is challenging the United States anywhere that it can,” said Stephen Blank of the Washington think-tank Jamestown Foundation.

“One such arena is Latin America,” Blank said. “Even as the Ukrainian crisis rages, Moscow is steadily trying to increase its profile throughout the Western Hemisphere.”

Moscow’s Latin American focus for establishing a base will be Nicaragua. Last April, Russian legislators agreed to legislation to set up a satellite navigation monitoring system in that country.

It is supposed to set up a network of land-based control stations in Nicaragua to monitor and augment the accuracy of navigation satellites in Earth orbit.

However, analysts also believe the Nicaraguan facility is to become a substitute for the electronic tracking center at Lourdes, Cuba which Moscow gave up a decade ago.

Russia’s military initiative and prospect of involvement in building a new canal come as Iran similarly has announced that its own warships will be patrolling waters off the U.S. coast and will use ports in the same countries.

*Not a ‘neutral’ act*

In drawing even closer to Nicaragua and Latin America generally, Russia has teamed up with China, which has been tapped to build the trans-oceanic canal through that country as an alternative to the Panama Canal.

As currently planned, China would do the construction while Russia would provide security and take on other yet undefined roles in connection with the canal.

In bringing in the Russians, Chinese businessman Wang Jing, who has a concession to build the canal in Nicaragua, also is said to hold a concession to build a deep water port in Crimea, a strategic area of Ukraine which recently was annexed to the Russian Federation.

According to Blank, Nicaraguan opposition deputy Eliseo Nunez Morales said that the planned Nicaragua Grand Canal project doesn’t have a “declaration of neutrality.”

In the event of a conflict, the maritime route would not remain neutral. In addition, the canal concession also allows for the establishment of a military base.

“Therefore, granting Russia the security concession could be a cover for a military base, which, in turn, would afford excellent cover for the introduction of a host of covert agents and programs and for laundering criminally obtained profits,” Blank asserted.

In addition, the legal framework surrounding the canal allows for conducting “business without paying taxes,” Victor Hugo Tinoco, another Nicaraguan opposition deputy, told the newspaper La Prensa.

Blank commented: “In other words, it provides a platform for massive corruption within the project as well as the government, potentially with both Russian and Chinese money.”

In addition, potentially large deposits of natural gas in the Caribbean Sea near Nicaragua also have peaked Russian interest.

The underlying concern is that Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, who is close to the Russians, could turn Nicaragua into a Russian base of operations.

“This combination of arms sales, military installations and large-scale economic, infrastructural and energy projects is a hallmark of Russian policy,” Blank said. “They are well-tested instruments by which Moscow seeks to permanently leverage ‘friendly states’ into partners or, more bluntly, clients.”

The Nicaragua Grand Canal is but one of many projects to which the Russians are linking up with the Chinese to economically penetrate the Western Hemisphere.

“This phenomenon,” Blank said, “combined with Russia’s unremitting efforts to wage ‘asymmetric war’ against the United States globally and in its neighborhood, should at least disturb the dogmatic slumbers of those in Washington who have hitherto neglected to ponder Moscow’s goals in Nicaragua and across Latin America.”


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/russia-joins-china-in-building-nicaragua-canal/#gSwmhplzS2ql7qt6.99

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## Pakistanisage

Looks like the Cold War is getting HOT again....

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## Raphael

Good. There's no reason the rivalry should be restricted to a monkey theatre like SEA. Plenty of fun to be had in Latin America.

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## SekrutYakhni

I URGE Pakistani, Arab, Afghan and Turkish establishment to fight JIHAD against Russia and China.

God has ordered us to be the pimps of the Johns (Europeans) and fight their dirty wars. We are doing it past 50 years so lets do it once again!

Yours truly,
Unkale Jihadi


Also jernails - Give me some money too. I need some commissions too.


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## boomslang

That canal will NEVER be built.


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## OCguy

The difference is that China has the capital to make the moves that they are making. I don't know if I would be comfortable as a Russian common citizen, having seen a catastrophic financial collapse only decades before.

It just seems that Beijing takes on things at a more deliberate pace. Russia just shelled out $50bln for the Olympics, are investing heavily in an attempt to bring their air, land, and sea forces back to a respectable level, and are raising tensions with the West in the Ukraine simultaneously.

Meanwhile the Fracking technology revolution in the US is going to hurt Russian energy exports for years to come.

You would think that of all nations, Russia would have learned from Operation Barbarossa, and the potential downfalls of taking on too much, too soon.


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## TaiShang

boomslang said:


> That canal will NEVER be built.



That's a bit outdated, but gives a nice overview. Might have already been posted.

So far, so good. If more steps are taken, Western environmental terrorists working for geopolitical ends will do everything to sabotage it, for sure.

*Nicaragua, China forge ahead on canal to remake world trade*

Syndey Morning Herald, January 21, 2014

For now, it's a mirage. But while few outside Nicaragua took seriously the announcement last year that a Chinese company had won a 50-year renewable concession to build a canal, *the plan is moving quickly*. *Scores of Chinese engineers have mapped the topography here, and deal-makers are scouring the globe for investors from an office in faraway Hong Kong.*

....

For China, the plan would mean easier access to crude oil from Venezuela and a greater foothold in the western hemisphere. Such geopolitical considerations may weigh more for China than the price tag.

"In the initial scenarios we looked at, you can see that up to a million people could be employed within the 10-year span of construction," said Manuel Coronel Kautz, an engineer who heads the Transoceanic Grand Canal Authority of Nicaragua.

*Mr Coronel said 300 to 400 professionals - including teams of Chinese geologists, British environmental experts and other foreign technicians and trade experts - were working on a gamut of financial, environmental and commercial feasibility studies.*

....

Lara was among 21 Nicaraguan business people, academics and civil society leaders Wang invited on an all-expenses-paid trip to China in late October to learn more about the proposed canal. They remained at Mr Wang's side for much of the nine-day trip.

Mr Wang, a 41-year-old entrepreneur, is the chairman of both Xinwei Telecom and HKND Group, the Hong Kong-based firm that holds the canal concession.

While Mr Wang isn't widely known in the West, his Beijing-based Xinwei has drawn high-level attention. Past and current Chinese party chairmen, premiers and Politburo members have visited the company, an unusual honour.

*As the Nicaraguans toured other enterprises with Mr Wang - most notably China Railway Construction Corp, the second largest construction firm in China - group members said the entrepreneur was treated, in the words of one, "as if he were Mao".*

...

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## Raphael

Access to Venezuelan oil is a good motivation. But another important one is contact with Cuba. The USSR lost the ability to meddle in the USA's backyard when it collapsed, but China should make every effort to regain this ability, in order to retaliate when USA stirs the pot in the SCS and makes its monkeys howl.

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## atlssa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> In the event of a conflict, the maritime route would not remain neutral. In addition, the canal concession also allows for the establishment of a military base.
> “Therefore, granting Russia the security concession could be a cover for a military base, which, in turn, would afford excellent cover for the introduction of a host of covert agents and programs and for laundering criminally obtained profits,” Blank asserted.



ITAR-TASS: World - No Russian military base possible in Nicaragua

No Russian military base possible in Nicaragua | Russia & India Report

Nicaragua looks to Russia to modernize army | Nicaragua Dispatch


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## Brainsucker

atlssa said:


> ITAR-TASS: World - No Russian military base possible in Nicaragua
> 
> No Russian military base possible in Nicaragua | Russia & India Report
> 
> Nicaragua looks to Russia to modernize army | Nicaragua Dispatch



A wise decision from Nicaragua government. Because if they allow them, they are basically put their country into a hot zone of possible conflict. But still, they'll need Russia if US become aggressive to their country. Hopefully this canal won't spark too much tension; although I think it is already a place that can raise tension and invite conflict.

So I think Chinese government has to responsible to protect Nicaragua if this country is to be happened get bullied by US; as this canal is basically rival the Panama canal.


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## scholseys

Russian PR stunt....

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## American Eagle

Concur, a second canal now is beyond both China's and Russia's stressed economies.


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## atlssa

Brainsucker said:


> A wise decision from Nicaragua government. Because if they allow them, they are basically put their country into a hot zone of possible conflict. But still, they'll need Russia if US become aggressive to their country. Hopefully this canal won't spark too much tension; although I think it is already a place that can raise tension and invite conflict.
> 
> So I think Chinese government has to responsible to protect Nicaragua if this country is to be happened get bullied by US; as this canal is basically rival the Panama canal.



I don't even believe they will build the canal. Let's wait and see what happens!


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## cirr

boomslang said:


> That canal will NEVER be built.



You mean it is not in the US's interest to have it built？

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## Pakistanisage

cirr said:


> You mean it is not in the US's interest to have it built？




The US already built in the narrowest part. That can only mean that if China / Russia build the Canal in Nicaragua they will have to dig more land. More digging means more Cost.


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## Pangu

I'm sure the US will find ways to stop this. 

There's no need to worry until it happens, but truth be told, the Panama is little narrow for some of the bigger ships. Still it remains to be seen if the Nicaragua canal will be profitable, which I sure the Panama canal will try to undercut it in price...


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## boomslang

cirr said:


> You mean it is not in the US's interest to have it built？



Why would it matter to the U.S. ? I mean the thing isn't going to happen. Nothing to do with the U.S.


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## Oldman1

Raphael said:


> Access to Venezuelan oil is a good motivation. But another important one is contact with Cuba. The USSR lost the ability to meddle in the USA's backyard when it collapsed, but China should make every effort to regain this ability, in order to retaliate when USA stirs the pot in the SCS and makes its monkeys howl.



You mean build a base in Cuba? Wouldn't that violate your policy of not having bases overseas?


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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> Access to Venezuelan oil is a good motivation. But another important one is contact with Cuba. The USSR lost the ability to meddle in the USA's backyard when it collapsed, but China should make every effort to regain this ability, in order to retaliate when USA stirs the pot in the SCS and makes its monkeys howl.



This one below gives a nice wrap-up of the major Chinese project in LA and their prospects: 

[Thank you to Huaqiao2013 at CDF for the original post)

*With China’s manufacturing sector in decline, foreign investment may be the country’s quickest path to economic recovery. In addition to Africa and East Asia, Beijing is pouring big money into Latin America. Chinese projects and investments have been popping up all over the continent, from oil drilling to infrastructure construction. But the payoff that China is seeking isn’t always a financial one.*

*While the United States, with $41.5 billion in 2012, is still the biggest foreign investor in Latin America, its level of investment is declining while China’s is rising.

In 2012, China’s foreign investment overall hit a new high of $87.8 billion, according to a United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) study. Latin America accounts for 13 percent of that - about $11.4 billion in 2012, a significant increase from the $120 million of 2004. All told, between 2005 and 2013, China invested $102.2 billion in the region, according to Boston University.*

*Is China getting its money’s worth?*

*Here's a progress report on five key projects:*

*1.Running for the deepwater oil: investment in Brazil’s offshore Libra site*

The project: Brazil’s Libra site, discovered in 2010, is estimated to hold 12 billion barrels of oil, which would be enough to supply the world’s demand for three months. The promising site will be managed by Brazil’s state-run Petrobras (NYSEBR) and a consortium of foreign firms including Netherlands-based Royal Dutch Shell (NYSE:RDS.A), France-based Total SA (NYSE:TOT), and two Chinese firms: CNOOC Ltd. (NYSE:CEO) and privately held China National Petroleum Corp.

The consortium will invest $500 million in Libra this year, reported Chinese state-controlled newspaper China Daily. It is undisclosed how much of that investment comes from China.

What’s in it for China? When Brazil discovered deepwater oil resources off its shores, the government expected around 40 oil companies to bid for a piece of the action in an international call for offers last September. Only 11 companies participated in the auction.

International giants such as BP (LON:BP), Exxon (NYSE:XON) and Chevron (NYSE:CVX) passed on the auction, arguing that Libra’s promise might not be worth it. “Not everybody is convinced Libra will live up to its promise,” Brazilian geologist and former head of geophysics at Petrobras Wagner Freire said. “Strategically, I don’t think [oil companies] want to deal with Petrobras and the government. You can obtain good oil elsewhere.”

Indeed, the requirements for the auction were strict. The rights to explore and produce oil from the area will go to the consortium, with Petrobras taking a minimum 30 percent stake, and, per Brazilian law, running exploration and production in the area as Libra’s operator.

But China went into the auction with its two biggest energy companies and got a large chunk. China’s interest in Libra made sense, according to JP Morgan’s analyst Caio Carvalhal, because it is not as risky as it looks. “There is high certainty it will be developed,” he told Bloomberg. He also added that state-owned companies, such as CNOOC, would be more willing to work with Petrobras, also state-owned, than private companies.

*Has it paid off? Drilling of the Libra site will begin in the second half of this year.*

*2.Funding dreams of global trade: the Nicaragua Canal*

The project: In Nicaragua, China is funding more than infrastructure: It is funding a country’s lifelong dream. Nicaragua has wanted its own canal since the 19th century, when it rivaled Panama for control of the waterway. The U.S., which was funding the project, chose Panama. Nicaragua, with no foreign funding, was left adrift.

That is, until a Chinese company called HK Nicaragua Canal Development Investment came into the picture. In August 2013, President Daniel Ortega announced that a $40 billion contract had been signed with the Hong Kong-based company that allowed it to design a route and start construction in December 2014 and manage the canal for 50 years.

What’s in it for China? International experts have bet against the canal. Though not technically impossible to build, the Nicaragua canal “will end up being $60 billion instead of 40,” said Jean Paul Rodrigue, a transportation expert at Hofstra University in New York. “It is just going to be a colossal waste of resources.”

However, China might be in it not for financial reasons but to control a trade route independent from U.S.-managed Panama. “Money is totally irrelevant in this case,” said Roberto Troncoso, former president of the Asociación Panameña de Ejecutivos Empresariales (Panamanian Association of Business Owners). “We are talking about world hegemony. China wants to expand its power -- whoever controls world trade, controls the world.”

*Has it paid off? The canal project is still in development, with viability studies currently being produced.*

*3.The survival of the best connected: investment and politics in Venezuela*

The project: With $50 billion, Venezuela is the largest recipient of Chinese investment in Latin America, according to the Boston University study. The latest project is a $14 billion investment from Chinese state-owned oil company Petroleum & Chemical Corporation (Sinopec) in an oil project in Orinoco, in a deal signed in September 2013. The same project received an extra $14 billion from CNPC barely days later -- making a grand total of $28 billion.

Venezuela has been leaning on China for the past seven years as a moneylender, both in the form of infrastructure projects and direct loans. In 2008, China’s Development Bank agreed to lend Venezuela $46.5 billion, according to a study from Tufts University. Almost all of it was backed by oil sale contracts. To date, the Caracas government has received $36 billion in loans and 60 percent of Venezuela’s oil exports to Beijing is in repayment of that debt.

What’s in it for China? For Venezuela, China is more than just a trade partner. President Nicolás Maduro said that it was the wish of late Comandante Hugo Chávez to deepen the relationship with China. During his visit to Beijing in September 2013, Maduro suggested the creation of a binational commission to plan the economic development of Venezuela in the next decade.

For China, however, the deal is different. Loyalty has little to do with it. “China is investing for strategic reasons,” Mark Jones, Latin America expert at think-tank Baker Institute, told Al Jazeera. By keeping tabs on the country with the largest oil reserves in the world -- as the OPEC recently named Venezuela -- China will gain more control over international trade and expand its influence in Latin America.

*Has it paid off? The Orinoco oil project is currently yielding 1.2 million barrels of oil a day, and Petróleos de Venezuela, which leads the extraction, predicts it could increase to 2 million this year. As for the suggestion of a closer political relationship, Beijing has yet to respond to Maduro’s proposal.*

*4.Old friends, new partners: reviving the Cienfuegos refinery in Cuba*

The project: In June 2010, China signed a contract with President Raúl Castro to invest the $6 billion needed fund the expansion of the Cienfuegos oil refinery, the largest in the country. China backed its investment with its shares of Venezuelan oil, and Chinese equipment arrived in the island as early as a month later. Planned work was to end in 2015, upping production of the refinery from 65,000 barrels a day to 150,000.

What’s in it for China? China and Cuba have a long history of cooperation, dating back to the Cuban Revolution of 1959 and steeped in their shared Communist ideology. Today, their relationship is as strong as ever but it is based on trade rather than Marxist ideals.

Cuba is currently working hard to open its economy to the world with a slew of reforms that go from encouraging private entrepreneurship to allowing Cubans to buy cars from abroad. Beijing has been pushing Havana to open its market through reforms, drawing upon its own experience in the last three decades, when China allowed its private sector and entrepreneurship to flourish, stimulated foreign investment, and promoted internal consumption.

*Has it paid off? The Chinese government delayed funding of the Cienfuegos expansion last year for the time being, arguing complications in their agreement with Venezuela. The project is currently stopped.*

*5.Digging for resources: the purchase of Las Bambas copper mine in Peru*

The project: Peru has been the recipient of the latest Chinese investment -- the purchase of Las Bambas mine, in southern-central Peru, from Swiss-based company Glencore Xstrata PLC (LON:GLEN), announced on Monday. Chinese consortium MMG Ltd. (HKG:1208) bought the mine for $5.8 billion, the largest transaction for a mining site in the history of Peru.

What’s in it for China? China first approached Latin America looking for natural resources, so it was just a matter of time before it got to resource-rich Peru -- the Andean nation is the 2nd-largest producer of copper in the world, and 5th largest of gold, according to its Ministry of Energy and Mining.

With this investment, China raised the total amount of investment in Peruvian mining to $15 billion for this year, according to estimates by the Sociedad Nacional de Minería, Petróleo y Energía (Peruvian National Society for Mining, Oil and Energy)

*Has it paid off? Las Bambas will start production under Chinese management in 2015. With this last acquisition, the Asian giant controls a third of Peru’s mining sector, according to the Peruvian Chamber of Commerce.*

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## My-Analogous

saad445566 said:


> I URGE Pakistani, Arab, Afghan and Turkish establishment to fight JIHAD against Russia and China.
> 
> God has ordered us to be the pimps of the Johns (Europeans) and fight their dirty wars. We are doing it past 50 years so lets do it once again!
> 
> Yours truly,
> Unkale Jihadi
> 
> 
> Also jernails - Give me some money too. I need some commissions too.


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## Raphael

Oldman1 said:


> You mean build a base in Cuba? Wouldn't that violate your policy of not having bases overseas?



No, we wouldn't build a base. But Cuba's location makes it ideal for SIGINT operations.

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## TaiShang

US Army boss: Russia, China two global heavyweights 

May 15, 2014

Ahead of a key meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in Shanghai next week, the US has said Russia and China influence strategy decisions on global security challenges.

Russia and China are today’s two global heavyweights, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey told the Atlantic Council in a keynote speech.

*“The world in which we live, and the security which we seek, and the actions which we conduct, are always conducted strategically within the context of what effect it will have on the two heavyweights, that is Russia and China,”* Gen. Dempsey said.

He added that today’s conflicts demand an evolution of the military to a new security paradigm, that he described using the mnemonic “2, 2, 2, and 1”.







*“Two heavyweights, Russia and China; two middleweights, Iran and North Korea; two networks, Al-Qaeda and the transnational organized crime network; and one system, cyber security,”* he elaborated, adding that each actor, whether an adversary or potential adversary requires a different approach, as each will “respond very differently to different kinds of pressures.”

*“You deter nation states. You use the instruments of power — all of them, diplomatic, economic, and military — differently, whether you’re dealing with a nation state, whether you’re dealing with a middleweight power who aspires to have more influence than it warrants, who can go rogue from time to time. And certainly networks are not responsive to the kind of pressure that nation states are,*” he concluded.

General Dempsey met with his Chinese counterpart after addressing the council and will be in Brussels next week to hold extensive meetings with other NATO members.

Russian officials are realigning a shift to energy-hungry Asian markets such as China and India as the current standoff between Russia and the EU over tensions in Ukraine continue.

*Preparations are underway for the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to Shanghai next week to cement economic ties with China, including on energy.*

*During the visit, the Russian and Chinese leaders are expected to discuss long-term gas supplies and boosting trade in oil, including Moscow’s long-awaited deal on exporting up to 60 billion cubic meters of gas per year via the eastern route to China.*

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## cnleio

According to current Nuke weapons and numbers & lands & population, U.A / Russia / China only three nations can survive in next Nuclear WWIII.

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## TaiShang

> Whether you’re dealing with a middleweight power who* aspires to have more influence than it warrants, *who* can go rogue *from time to time*.*



That explains very well the mindset of the US. They are not ready to concede power.

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## senheiser

*Russia-China ties at highest level in history – Putin*
Published time: May 18, 2014 20:06 
Edited time: May 19, 2014 08:20
Get short URL






Russia's President Vladimir Putin (R) and his Chinese couterpart Xi Jinping.(AFP PHOTO / Alexei Nikolsky)


Russia-China cooperation has reached its highest level ever, Russian President Vladimir Putin has said in an interview with Chinese media on the eve of his visit to Shanghai, where a record package of documents is expected to be signed by the two nations.

Below is the full transcript of the Russian president’s interview with Chinese Central Television, Xinhua news agency, China News Service, The People's Daily, China Radio International, and Phoenix Television.

*Question*: _What are your expectations concerning the upcoming visit to China? What results do you expect from the Summit of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia in Shanghai?_

*Vladimir Putin:* I am always happy to visit hospitable China. It is a pleasure to see how our neighbour is transforming right before our eyes. Shanghai is a vivid illustration of this.

Establishing closer ties with the People’s Republic of China – our trusted friend – is Russia's unconditional foreign policy priority.

*Now Russia-China cooperation is advancing to a new stage of comprehensive partnership and strategic interaction. It would not be wrong to say that it has reached the highest level in all its centuries-long history.*
I am looking forward to a new meeting with President of China Xi Jinping, with whom I have good working and personal relations. We will discuss how previous agreements are being implemented and outline new objectives for the future. I am sure that the upcoming talks will give a powerful impetus to further strengthening of bilateral cooperation in all areas and deeper coordination in the international arena. The summit’s results and future plans will be reflected in the Joint Statement by the Heads of State and a strong package of documents expected to be signed during the visit.

Russia and China have actively advocated establishing a new security and sustainable development architecture in the Asia-Pacific. It should be based on the principles of equality, respect for international law, indivisibility of security, non-use of force or threat of force. Today this task is becoming increasingly important. The forthcoming Summit of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) serves to contribute to addressing this task.







United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon (center L) meets with the Chinese President Xi Jinping (center R) at the Xijiao State Guesthouse on the eve of the fourth CICA summit in Shanghai on May 19, 2014. (AFP Photo / Mark Ralston)



CICA is a well-established cooperation mechanism. It has been successfully working in such spheres as security, new challenges and threats, economy, environmental protection and humanitarian issues, all of which are important for the region.

Russia has taken an active part in CICA’s activities. In mid-April 2014, members of the Conference approved the Statute of the CICA Business Council sponsored by Russia. I am confident that the launch of the Council will enhance practical ties between business communities of the Asian countries.

At the upcoming summit, the Secretariats of CICA and SCO are expected to sign a Memorandum of Understanding. That would serve as another step towards shaping a framework of partnerships between this region’s organisations and forums.

*Q:* _China is consistently making progress towards the "Chinese dream", i.e. a great national rebirth. Russia has also set a goal of restoring a powerful state. How, in your opinion, could our countries interact and help each other in fulfilling these tasks? What areas can be prioritised in this regard?_

*VP*: Promotion of friendly and good-neighbourly partnership relations is fully consistent with the interests of both Russia and China. We do not have any political issues left which could impede the enhancement of our comprehensive cooperation.

*Through joint efforts, we have established a truly exemplary collaboration, which should become a model for major world powers.*
It is based on respect for the fundamental interests of each other and efficient work for the benefit of the peoples of our two countries.







Russia's President Vladimir Putin (R) shakes hands with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping . (AFP Photo / Alexei Nikolsky)



Russia and China successfully cooperate in the international arena and closely coordinate their steps to address international challenges and crises. Our positions on the main global and regional issues are similar or even identical.

It is encouraging that both sides are willing to further deepen their cooperation. Both Moscow and Beijing are well aware that our countries have not exhausted their potentials. We have a way to go. The priority areas of collaboration at the current stage include the expansion of economic ties and cooperation in science and high-technology sector. Such pooling of capacities is very helpful in fulfilling the tasks of domestic development of our countries.

*Q:* _Cooperation between China and Russia has been steadily increasing, but uncertainties in global economy persist. The emerging markets are faced with new challenges and slowdown of economic growth. How can our two countries help each other to counter these challenges? How can we ensure steady increase of mutual trade and reciprocal investments?_

*VP:* In the context of turbulent global economy, the strengthening of mutually beneficial trade and economic ties, as well as the increase of investment flows between Russia and China are of paramount importance. This is not just a crucial element of socioeconomic development of our countries, but a contribution to the efforts aimed at stabilising the entire global market.

*Today, Russia firmly places China at the top of its foreign trade partners.*
In 2013, the volume of bilateral trade was close to $90 billion, which is far from being the limit. We will try to increase trade turnover to $100 billion by 2015 and up to $200 billion by 2020.






Our countries successfully cooperate in the energy sector. We steadily move towards the establishment of a strategic energy alliance. A large‑scale project worth over $60 billion is underway to supply China with crude oil via the Skovorodino-Mohe pipeline.

The arrangements on export of Russian natural gas to China have been nearly finalised. Their implementation will help Russia to diversify pipeline routes for natural gas supply, and our Chinese partners to alleviate the concerns related to energy deficit and environmental security through the use of "clean" fuel.







Crude oil pumping station 21 in Skvorodino where the Russian section of the oil export route to China was launched today.(RIA Novosti / Aleksey Babushkin)



At the same time, we are working actively to reduce dependence of bilateral trade on external market conditions. Therefore, in order to develop trade and economic cooperation we pay particular attention to the breakthrough areas such as higher energy efficiency, environmental protection, production of drugs and medical equipment, developing new information technologies, as well as nuclear energy and outer space.

*We will implement a list of joint projects in 40 priority areas with total investments of about $20 billion.*
These areas include civil aircraft industry. An agreement has been reached on joint design of a wide-body long-range aircraft. In the future we will develop a heavy helicopter. I am sure that our companies can manufacture and supply competitive products to the world markets.

We also intend to actively develop investment cooperation, the scope of which obviously does not meet real capacities and needs of our countries yet. We have examples of successful projects. I would like to note the participation of Chinese capital in the reconstruction of an airport in the Kaluga Region and building of plants for production of automotive parts and construction materials in that Russian constituent entity.

To our mind, there are many other promising areas for investments. We can point to different branches of machine engineering, processing of agricultural products, mining operations, and development of transport and energy infrastructure.

We must also strengthen financial cooperation and protect ourselves from exchange-rate fluctuations among the world's major currencies. Therefore, we are now considering how to increase mutual settlements in national currencies.

*Q:* _Russia has recently announced the creation of a special economic zone in Vladivostok. What could, in your view, be the role of China in its creation and in the development of the Russian Far East as a whole?_

*VP:* Accelerated socioeconomic development of Siberia and the Far East is one of Russia's key national priorities for the 21st century. We are now implementing a whole package of programmes to modernise and upgrade transport, energy and social infrastructure in these regions.

*We are aiming at the creation of special areas of advanced economic development with an investment-friendly environment.*
Competitive conditions for launching export-oriented enterprises in non-primary sectors have been created.

In the areas of advanced development, new companies will enjoy some substantial benefits. These are tax holidays with respect to a number of taxes and reduced insurance premium rates; liberalisation of the customs regime, including free customs zones; special rules for access to land and for connecting to infrastructure facilities.

Today, the relevant federal law is being finalised. Development institutions are being created and promising centres are being selected. One of them will probably be established in Vladivostok on Russky Island where the APEC 2012 Summit took place.







A general view of a new bridge over the Golden Horn bay in the Russian far-eastern city of Vladivostok September 10, 2012.(Reuters / Sergei Karpukhin)



Obviously, we are interested in Chinese businessmen making use of these opportunities and becoming one of the leaders here, since both Russia and China will benefit from an accelerated development of the Russian Far East.

It is important not to limit our relations to trade. It is essential to establish strong technological and industrial alliances; attract investments to the infrastructure and energy sectors; to jointly promote scientific research and humanitarian contacts; lay a solid foundation for a sustainable long-term development of our trade and economic relations. And the Russian Far East can and must become a natural venue for the said efforts.

*Q:* _How would you rate the present level of cooperation between our countries in the humanitarian sphere and its prospects? Which projects within the framework of reciprocal theme years (national, language, tourism, youth exchanges) have impressed you most?_

*VP:* The humanitarian contacts between Russia and China are in keeping with the steady development of the whole complex of strategic partnership relations between our countries. At the moment, their level is as high as never before. The major projects of national, language and tourism theme years in which millions of our citizens participated, have played a significant role in that.

It is noteworthy that a number of events are now being carried out on a regular basis. These are festivals of culture, film weeks, youth sports games, student festivals, camps for schoolchildren and students, fora for university principals, exhibitions of educational services and many other events.

An intergovernmental project of the Russia-China Youth Friendly Exchanges Years planned for 2014–2015 was launched this March. The performance of the recently created Russian-Chinese philharmonic youth orchestra, headed by the artistic director and principal conductor of the Mariinsky Theatre Valery Gergiev, has become a highlight of the theme years’ launch in St Petersburg.

Of course, we are not going to settle down. The mutual interest of youth in history, culture and traditions of the peoples of China and Russia is increasing. It is an objective process, and we are committed to fully supporting it in the future.

*Q:* _In 2015, our countries will celebrate the 70th anniversary of Victory over fascism. What is the impact of joint Russian-Chinese efforts to oppose the attempts aimed at challenging the results of World War II?_

*VP:* It is true that the attempts to rewrite and distort history are becoming more frequent.

Four years ago Russia and China adopted a Joint Statement on the 65th Anniversary of Victory in the Second World War.

*We share an idea that it is unacceptable to revise the results of the war, as the consequences will be extremely grave.*
It is clearly evident from the tragic events currently unfolding in Ukraine, where violent neo-Nazis are waging a real campaign of terror against civilians.

I would like to express my gratitude to our Chinese friends for cherishing the memory of thousands of our compatriots, who sacrificed their lives to liberate Northeast China from invaders.

Next year we will hold a range of joint events to mark the 70th anniversary of Victory both in the bilateral and the SCO format. During these events, youth will be in the focus of our work.

We will certainly continue to oppose attempts to falsify history, heroize fascists and their accomplices, blacken the memory and reputation of heroic liberators.

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## Mao1949

Deal of the century.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Excellent news. We need vastly stronger ties with Russia in all aspects! 

Russia has shown they are able to *single-handedly* counter American global hegemony, in both Ukraine and Syria.

That alone is worthy is immense admiration, but in practical terms it is worth more to us then gold. China-Russia-SCO-BRICS could very well one day be a viable and consistent challenge to the American hegemony.

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## vostok

In Stalin's time, relationship was even better, I think.

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## Chinese-Dragon

vostok said:


> In Stalin's time, relationship was even better, I think.



Putin is a good leader, I can see Sino-Russian ties soaring under his leadership.

If the Americans with their 0.1% growth rate want to sanction Russia, then we welcome Russian businesses to come to China instead!








senheiser said:


> *Q:* _In 2015, our countries will celebrate the 70th anniversary of Victory over fascism. What is the impact of joint Russian-Chinese efforts to oppose the attempts aimed at challenging the results of World War II?_



And congratulations to the Russians again, for beating the greatest military machine to ever come out of Europe, the Nazi German Wehrmacht.

May your sacrifices and victories at Stalingrad and Berlin live for ten thousand years.

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## vostok

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Putin is a good leader, I can see Sino-Russian ties soaring under his leadership.


It is beyond any doubt. But now there is no romance. We used to sing songs about friendship of peoples. Under Stalin after the War was a very popular song "Russian and Chinese are brothers forever." Now in relations is mainly business. And the older generation remembers when between people of China and Soviet Union was a true friendship. Khrushchev, beast, destroyed it.

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## eazzy

Good news.

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## Chinese-Dragon

vostok said:


> It is beyond any doubt. But now there is no romance. We used to sing songs about friendship of peoples. Under Stalin after the War was a very popular song "Russian and Chinese are brothers forever." Now in relations is mainly business. And the older generation remembers when between people of China and Soviet Union was a true friendship. Khrushchev, beast, destroyed it.



We need to guard ourselves against traitorous leaders, who can do so much damage to us.

Luckily, we have good leaders now. Putin is a great Russian patriot, and Chinese leaders (the top ones anyway) are determined to return China to a place of strength in the world.

America has grown too used to having global hegemony, they cannot stand it when countries like Russia and China refuse to follow their orders. All we need to do is grow strong by ourselves, and that alone is enough to rival (and thus end) their hegemony and bring about a multi-polar world.

Also, can I ask your opinion on Russian leaders (like Khrushchev etc)? Which ones do you like, and which ones do you dislike?

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## TaiShang

I do hope the energy deal will be rule out USD as the medium currency and instead Remninbi and Ruble will be used. That's a serious blow to US financial terrorism.

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## anonymus

vostok said:


> In Stalin's time, relationship was even better, I think.




In Soviet era, Relationship was one sided. Now relationship is based on equality.

+

PRC did not existed for most of Stalin's reign.


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## Chinese-Dragon

anonymus said:


> In Soviet era, Relationship was one sided. Now relationship is based on equality.
> 
> +
> 
> PRC did not existed for most of Stalin's reign.



Yes that is true, China has strengthened a lot since those days.

But we still have a LOT to learn from Russia. They are a former superpower and an industrialized country, everyone has seen how easily they can force America to back down, whether in Georgia/Syria/Ukraine. No other country in the world can do it like Russia can.

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## Raphael

vostok said:


> In Stalin's time, relationship was even better, I think.



No, I think Putin is right when he said relations now are the best ever. Even in Stalin's time, right after our victories over fascism, there were still some suspicions, over the lack of USSR intervention in Korea, and because Mao was so ambitious and wanted to displace the USSR as the main communist state, or at least not be subordinate to it. But now ties are predicated on strong economic links, and a mutual disgust and opposition to American imperial overreach. This is a much more solid basis for cooperation.

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## rockstar08

good for the region ....

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## vostok

Chinese-Dragon said:


> We need to guard ourselves against traitorous leaders, who can do so much damage to us.
> 
> Luckily, we have good leaders now. Putin is a great Russian patriot, and Chinese leaders (the top ones anyway) are determined to return China to a place of strength in the world.
> 
> America has grown too used to having global hegemony, they cannot stand it when countries like Russia and China refuse to follow their orders. All we need to do is grow strong by ourselves, and that alone is enough to rival (and thus end) their hegemony and bring about a multi-polar world.
> 
> Also, can I ask your opinion on Russian leaders (like Khrushchev etc)? Which ones do you like, and which ones do you dislike?


Without a doubt, our relations will improve, as it should be among friends and neighbors.
My opinion about the Soviet leader ? In short. Lenin made the world's first socialist revolution. He is no doubt a great man. His main mistake was that he created the Soviet Union as a federation rather than as a unitary state. Stalin was greatest among Soviet leaders. Moreover , I believe that Stalin - one of the greatest men in the history of mankind. He picked up power in a semi-feudal war-ravaged Russia and left it as superpower. He helps to many nations in the fight against Western colonial empires and the puppet pro- Western regimes. Khrushchev destroyed much of what made Stalin . The worst that Khrushchev did - he made a criticism of Stalin than caused irreparable damage to the image of communism in the eyes of all mankind . And he destroyed the State Planning Commission - a powerful office, thanks to the hard work of which the Soviet economy reached 20 % growth.
Brezhnev partially corrected the errors of Khrushchev , but not enough. Under Brezhnev, the Soviet Union lost leadership in science . Andropov was a strong man , General . He planned cleansing ranks of Party from Western agents which in 80`s has been a lot. He was killed , as well as Stalin. About Chernenko I know nothing , except that he was very old and very sick.
Gorbachev - history rightly will put him on par with Judas and Brutus . The greatest traitor for two thousand years. Absolutely despicable person .

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## anonymus

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Can you not refer to our country as a dog? We were in the Soviet camp yes, but later made our own camp.




That was a figure of speech epitomizing unflinching loyalty. Would change that.

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## Chinese-Dragon

vostok said:


> Without a doubt, our relations will improve, as it should be among friends and neighbors.
> My opinion about the Soviet leader ? In short. Lenin made the world's first socialist revolution. He is no doubt a great man. His main mistake was that he created the Soviet Union as a federation rather than as a unitary state. Stalin was greatest among Soviet leaders. Moreover , I believe that Stalin - one of the greatest men in the history of mankind. He picked up power in a semi-feudal war-ravaged Russia and left it as superpower. He helps to many nations in the fight against Western colonial empires and the puppet pro- Western regimes. Khrushchev destroyed much of what made Stalin . The worst that Khrushchev did - he made a criticism of Stalin than caused irreparable damage to the image of communism in the eyes of all mankind . And he destroyed the State Planning Commission - a powerful office, thanks to the hard work of which the Soviet economy reached 20 % growth.
> Brezhnev partially corrected the errors of Khrushchev , but not enough. Under Brezhnev, the Soviet Union lost leadership in science . Andropov was a strong man , General . He planned cleansing ranks of Party from Western agents which in 80 years has been a lot. He was killed , as well as Stalin. About Chernenko I know nothing , except that he was very old and very sick.
> Gorbachev - history rightly will put him on par with Judas and Brutus . The greatest traitor for two thousand years. Absolutely despicable person .



Thanks buddy, that was very informative. 



vostok said:


> Gorbachev - history rightly will put him on par with Judas and Brutus . The greatest traitor for two thousand years. Absolutely despicable person .



I agree with you sir, I always thought Gorbachev was for Russia what Chiang Kai-shek and Wang Jingwei were for us (greatest traitors in modern Chinese history).

My favorite Chinese leaders are Deng Xiaoping, Hu Jintao and Zhu Rongji (I greatly disliked Jiang Zemin, maybe unfairly). The current one, Xi Jinping is looking quite good as well, I think he might do very well.

As long as we can avoid bringing another Chiang Kai-shek to power in China, and prevent another Gorbachev from coming to power in Russia, then I don't think any American tricks can stop us from rising again. Internal strength is the most important kind of strength.

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## senheiser

anonymus said:


> In Soviet era, Relationship was one sided. Now relationship is based on equality.
> 
> +
> 
> PRC did not existed for most of Stalin's reign.



not true, China fought against america in korean war and proved it was a communist power of its own, this all happened under stalin

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## vostok

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Thanks buddy, that was very informative.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you sir, I always thought Gorbachev was for Russia what Chiang Kai-shek and Wang Jingwei were for us (greatest traitors in modern Chinese history).
> 
> My favorite Chinese leaders are Deng Xiaoping, Hu Jintao and Zhu Rongji (I greatly disliked Jiang Zemin, maybe unfairly). The current one, Xi Jinping is looking quite good as well, I think he might do very well.
> 
> As long as we can avoid bringing another Chiang Kai-shek to power in China, and prevent another Gorbachev from coming to power in Russia, then I don't think any American tricks can stop us from rising again. Internal strength is the most important kind of strength.


Chinese Party managed to establish a mechanism for the transfer of power to change generations. Soviet Party has failed to do it . Bring a man into space and spread socialism to half of the world they were able to , and establish a mechanism for the transfer of power - unfortunately not ...
It just so happens that most of the active men 1919-1927 years of birth were killed on the war. Therefore, the elite has been no change in the 70s and 80s . Continuity was broken , and the party bosses late 80s were already very much oriented to the West. They destroyed the country for personal enrichment, under the leadership of Michael " Judas " Gorbachev.

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## Mao1949

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Thanks buddy, that was very informative.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you sir, I always thought Gorbachev was for Russia what Chiang Kai-shek and Wang Jingwei were for us (greatest traitors in modern Chinese history).
> 
> My favorite Chinese leaders are Deng Xiaoping, Hu Jintao and Zhu Rongji (I greatly disliked Jiang Zemin, maybe unfairly). The current one, Xi Jinping is looking quite good as well, I think he might do very well.
> 
> As long as we can avoid bringing another Chiang Kai-shek to power in China, and prevent another Gorbachev from coming to power in Russia, then I don't think any American tricks can stop us from rising again. Internal strength is the most important kind of strength.



Greatest Chinese leader in history is Mao. Other names you said came about due to Mao's hard work. Without Mao there is no modern China. Mao formed his own party, got support from the peasants and resisted the Japanese military, defeated the American puppet KMT, kicked the colonial foreigners out of China, kicked US out of North Korea, beat India, got back Xinjiang and Tibet, put satellite into space, built nuclear weapons, built missiles, increased Chinese population to give advantage we have now, gave China an independent foreign policy, protected Chinese sovereignty, etc

Mao was a revolutionary and a charismatic man. The job of others were made pretty easy due to the foundation laid by Mao. Mao made a few economic mistakes in his later years that were costly in human life and resources but never ever forget all the positives he contributed to China. Mao had to do all the hard work. What he did is 1000 times harder than doing a bunch of economic reforms like Deng Xiaoping and Zhu Rongji. China had nothing and Mao protected Chinese interests with very limited resources.

China was in the biggest mess in our history with very strong rivals and China at its weakest, yet Mao somehow strengthened Chinese power. For that, Mao is the greatest Chinese that ever lived.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mao1949 said:


> Greatest Chinese leader in history is Mao. Other names you said came about due to Mao's hard work. Without Mao there is no modern China. Mao formed his own party, got support from the peasants and resisted the Japanese military, defeated the American puppet KMT, kicked the colonial foreigners out of China, kicked US out of North Korea, beat India, got back Xinjiang and Tibet, put satellite into space, built nuclear weapons, built missiles, increased Chinese population to give advantage we have now, gave China an independent foreign policy, protected Chinese sovereignty, etc
> 
> Mao was a revolutionary and a charismatic man. The job of others were made pretty easy due to the foundation laid by Mao. Mao made a few economic mistakes in his later years that were costly in human life and resources but never ever forget all the positives he contributed to China. Mao had to do all the hard work. What he did is 1000 times harder than doing a bunch of economic reforms like Deng Xiaoping and Zhu Rongji. China had nothing and Mao protected Chinese interests with very limited resources.
> 
> China was in the biggest mess in our history with very strong rivals and China at its weakest, yet Mao somehow strengthened Chinese power. For that, Mao is the greatest Chinese that ever lived.



This is true, Mao founded the PRC and ended our Century of Humiliation by kicking out all the foreign powers. That alone was one of China's best achievements in modern history.

But still I prefer Deng Xiaoping. For me, economic development is always the number one priority, since that is the thing that most affects the ordinary Chinese people on the ground.

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## Raphael

Chinese-Dragon said:


> My favorite Chinese leaders are Deng Xiaoping, Hu Jintao and Zhu Rongji (I greatly disliked Jiang Zemin, maybe unfairly). The current one, Xi Jinping is looking quite good as well, I think he might do very well.



Don't forget Zhou Enlai. He tempered Mao's policies when Mao was at his least stable.

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## Pangu

Putin needs to concentrate on the Russian Far East development in view of the Ukrainian crisis, no doubt Russia is still Euro-centric, but Vladivostok is the new deal in the 21st century. Also, more Russians there will hopefully disperse the fear of Chinese invasion phobia.
 
*Is Russia's Far East overcrowded by Chinese immigrants?*
April 28, 2012 Artem Zagorodnov
One of the most common myths in Moscow is that Russia’s Far East is overrun with Chinese immigrants. Sergei Pushkarev was the head of the Vladivostok regional branch of the Federal Migration Service from 1993 until 2003. He talked to RBTH about why this myth persists and what the demographic situation really looks like in the Far East.

1





Sergei Pushkarev, the head of the Vladivostok regional branch of the Federal Migration Service from 1993 until 2003. Source: Press Photo
*RBTH: Are Russian fears that the Chinese are taking over Russia’s Far East justified?*

*Sergei Pushkarev:* Somebody has to take care of the territory and our own population is leaving the area in catastrophic numbers. Those replacing them are not Chinese, but citizens of Central Asian countries.

Investment from China is practically zero due to a lack of mechanisms to protect them from official abuse and criminals. The Chinese are happy to host joint businesses on their side of the border, taking advantage of our technological know-how and attracting our entrepreneurs.

In the mid-1990s when we first opened up Vladivostok – and China was less economically developed – we had lots of Chinese in border bazaars and sleeping in train wagons. Nowadays you have to pay around a thousand dollars monthly to attract a specialist from China.

God gave us a peaceful, hard-working neighbor eager to engage in mutually beneficial economic activity…and we live in fear of China.

*RBTH: How many migrants from China are there?*

*S. P.: *The number is in the thousands. Unlike Central Asians, Chinese citizens need a visa to cross into Russia. We have clear numbers on how many are here and what they’re doing.

Chinese, Korean, Philippine and other immigrants from faraway countries are the most controlled in Russia because all of those people need visas to enter Russia. They are easy to deport if they break the law. When the head of the Federal Migration Service talks about nine to ten million illegal immigrants in Russia, he’s referring mostly to Central Asians (who don’t need a visa).

They arrive in Russia without an invitation, without an employer and without a stated purpose or timeframe for being here. But they are granted three months to become legally employed, which is usually not enough because of bureaucratic barriers.

*RBTH: Where does the myth that there are of millions of Chinese in the Far East come from?*

*S.P.: *There are 14 border crossings, most of them on the border with China. Approximately 750 thousand border crossings are made by Chinese citizens each year. Most of these people – they include tourists headed for other regions of Russia, businesspeople, workers –eventually leave the country. One citizen from China who entered Russia 10 times over the course of the year would count as ten. Then the journalists and academics use this figure to say that 750 thousand Chinese citizens moved into the Far East in a single year. Then the nationalist politicians in Moscow pick up this number.

Most of the Chinese people don’t assimilate and don’t remain here permanently. They’ve even set up special training centers on their own territory to prepare Chinese citizens for working in foreign countries, including Russia. And we’re only talking about setting up these centers for foreigners coming to work here.

A lot of people don’t know that the Chinese government is having problems keeping its population from moving South. They are actually having the same problems of people leaving their Northern territories as we are having with the Far East.

_Sergei Pushkarev headed the Federal Migration Service’s (roughly equivalent to the Immigration and Naturalization Service in the United States) office in Vladivostok from 1993 until it was made subordinate to the Ministry of Internal Affairs in 2003. He has since set up a nongovernmental organization that assists immigrants and their employers.
Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - Is Russia's Far East overcrowded by Chinese immigrants? | Russia Beyond The Headlines)_

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## senheiser

xudeen said:


> Putin needs to concentrate on the Russian Far East development in view of the Ukrainian crisis, no doubt Russia is still Euro-centric, but Vladivostok is the new deal in the 21st century. Also, more Russians there will hopefully disperse the fear of Chinese invasion phobia.
> 
> *Is Russia's Far East overcrowded by Chinese immigrants?*
> April 28, 2012 Artem Zagorodnov
> One of the most common myths in Moscow is that Russia’s Far East is overrun with Chinese immigrants. Sergei Pushkarev was the head of the Vladivostok regional branch of the Federal Migration Service from 1993 until 2003. He talked to RBTH about why this myth persists and what the demographic situation really looks like in the Far East.
> 
> 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sergei Pushkarev, the head of the Vladivostok regional branch of the Federal Migration Service from 1993 until 2003. Source: Press Photo
> *RBTH: Are Russian fears that the Chinese are taking over Russia’s Far East justified?*
> 
> *Sergei Pushkarev:* Somebody has to take care of the territory and our own population is leaving the area in catastrophic numbers. Those replacing them are not Chinese, but citizens of Central Asian countries.
> 
> Investment from China is practically zero due to a lack of mechanisms to protect them from official abuse and criminals. The Chinese are happy to host joint businesses on their side of the border, taking advantage of our technological know-how and attracting our entrepreneurs.
> 
> In the mid-1990s when we first opened up Vladivostok – and China was less economically developed – we had lots of Chinese in border bazaars and sleeping in train wagons. Nowadays you have to pay around a thousand dollars monthly to attract a specialist from China.
> 
> God gave us a peaceful, hard-working neighbor eager to engage in mutually beneficial economic activity…and we live in fear of China.
> 
> *RBTH: How many migrants from China are there?*
> 
> *S. P.: *The number is in the thousands. Unlike Central Asians, Chinese citizens need a visa to cross into Russia. We have clear numbers on how many are here and what they’re doing.
> 
> Chinese, Korean, Philippine and other immigrants from faraway countries are the most controlled in Russia because all of those people need visas to enter Russia. They are easy to deport if they break the law. When the head of the Federal Migration Service talks about nine to ten million illegal immigrants in Russia, he’s referring mostly to Central Asians (who don’t need a visa).
> 
> They arrive in Russia without an invitation, without an employer and without a stated purpose or timeframe for being here. But they are granted three months to become legally employed, which is usually not enough because of bureaucratic barriers.
> 
> *RBTH: Where does the myth that there are of millions of Chinese in the Far East come from?*
> 
> *S.P.: *There are 14 border crossings, most of them on the border with China. Approximately 750 thousand border crossings are made by Chinese citizens each year. Most of these people – they include tourists headed for other regions of Russia, businesspeople, workers –eventually leave the country. One citizen from China who entered Russia 10 times over the course of the year would count as ten. Then the journalists and academics use this figure to say that 750 thousand Chinese citizens moved into the Far East in a single year. Then the nationalist politicians in Moscow pick up this number.
> 
> Most of the Chinese people don’t assimilate and don’t remain here permanently. They’ve even set up special training centers on their own territory to prepare Chinese citizens for working in foreign countries, including Russia. And we’re only talking about setting up these centers for foreigners coming to work here.
> 
> A lot of people don’t know that the Chinese government is having problems keeping its population from moving South. They are actually having the same problems of people leaving their Northern territories as we are having with the Far East.
> 
> _Sergei Pushkarev headed the Federal Migration Service’s (roughly equivalent to the Immigration and Naturalization Service in the United States) office in Vladivostok from 1993 until it was made subordinate to the Ministry of Internal Affairs in 2003. He has since set up a nongovernmental organization that assists immigrants and their employers.
> Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - Is Russia's Far East overcrowded by Chinese immigrants? | Russia Beyond The Headlines)_



i prefer Chinese immigrant to Arabs like it is in Western Europe

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## Sanchez

vostok said:


> In Stalin's time, relationship was even better, I think.



In Stalin's time the relationship was like "big brother/little brother" or "teacher/student", and the "brotherhood" was broken because CCP refused to criticize Stalin or to be anti-Stalinism. Stalin was and still is considered as great as Lenin in CCP though.

We now perhaps have good and equal partnerships.

One of the impressive Soviet figures was Kosygin, somewhat similar to the role of Chinese premier Zhou Enlai.

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## Sanchez

Mao1949 said:


> Greatest Chinese leader in history is Mao. Other names you said came about due to Mao's hard work. Without Mao there is no modern China. Mao formed his own party, got support from the peasants and resisted the Japanese military, defeated the American puppet KMT, kicked the colonial foreigners out of China, kicked US out of North Korea, beat India, got back Xinjiang and Tibet, put satellite into space, built nuclear weapons, built missiles, increased Chinese population to give advantage we have now, gave China an independent foreign policy, protected Chinese sovereignty, etc
> 
> Mao was a revolutionary and a charismatic man. The job of others were made pretty easy due to the foundation laid by Mao. Mao made a few economic mistakes in his later years that were costly in human life and resources but never ever forget all the positives he contributed to China. Mao had to do all the hard work. What he did is 1000 times harder than doing a bunch of economic reforms like Deng Xiaoping and Zhu Rongji. China had nothing and Mao protected Chinese interests with very limited resources.
> 
> China was in the biggest mess in our history with very strong rivals and China at its weakest, yet Mao somehow strengthened Chinese power. For that, Mao is the greatest Chinese that ever lived.



Mao wasn't an big figure in the formation of CCP. He fought his way through and later proved to be the natural leader of CCP. Mao was ruthless against foreign aggression, and yet he is remembered and respected for that by the world. We need another Mao's style leader to deal with present day US and their pet dogs in Asia.

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## tranquilium

vostok said:


> In Stalin's time, relationship was even better, I think.



Stalin is a great leader, that's why sitting on the opposite side of the negotiation table to him is a big headache for pretty much anyone and no, the relationship is not better in Stalin's time from Chinese perspective.


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## terranMarine

vostok said:


> Without a doubt, our relations will improve, as it should be among friends and neighbors.
> My opinion about the Soviet leader ?



You forgot Yeltsin


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## tranquilium

vostok said:


> Chinese Party managed to establish a mechanism for the transfer of power to change generations. Soviet Party has failed to do it . Bring a man into space and spread socialism to half of the world they were able to , and establish a mechanism for the transfer of power - unfortunately not ...
> It just so happens that most of the active men 1919-1927 years of birth were killed on the war. Therefore, the elite has been no change in the 70s and 80s . Continuity was broken , and the party bosses late 80s were already very much oriented to the West. They destroyed the country for personal enrichment, under the leadership of Michael " Judas " Gorbachev.



I always thought that Yeltsin is main one responsible, Gorbachev is just the straw that broke the camel's back.

The leadership continuity issues was huge. One of the reason for the later instability in USSR was the rapid change of leadership between Andropov and Chernenko due to advanced age. Fun fact, this is actually one of the reason Jiang Zemin rose to power. After Chernenko, the Chinese leadership realized that problem with leaders that are 70+ years old and begun a program to promote younger leaders. Jiang is among the group of people fast tracked by the program. It was fortunately that Deng himself is so long lived (lived to 93) that by the time of his death , enough 50 to 60 year olds are in office that the next generation leaders can transition smoothly.

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## TaiShang

Historic times, indeed.

Russia-China to form strategic energy alliance: Putin








The Sino-Russian partnership has reached “the highest level in all its centuries-long history”, said President Vladimir Putin on the eve of his visit to China.
Putin was speaking to Chinese media ahead of his trip to Shanghai where he will hold discussions with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping and sign a record number of cooperations agreements.

The two countries are “steadily moving towards the establishment of a strategic energy alliance”, said Putin.

“A large-scale project worth over $60 billion is underway to supply China with crude oil via the Skovorodino-Mohe pipeline. The arrangements on export of Russian natural gas to China have been nearly finalised. Their implementation will help Russia to diversify pipeline routes for natural gas supply, and our Chinese partners to alleviate the concerns related to energy deficit and environmental security through the use of “clean” fuel,” he said.

Russia and China will implement a list of joint projects in 40 priority areas with total investments of about $20 billion.

The two nations have also reached an agreement on joint design of a wide-body long-range aircraft and on developing a heavy helicopter.

“Establishing closer ties with the People’s Republic of China, our trusted friend, is Russia’s unconditional foreign policy priority,” claimed Putin.

The two sides are also eyeing “deeper coordination in the international arena”, said Putin.

*“Russia and China successfully cooperate in the international arena and closely coordinate their steps to address international challenges and crises. Our positions on the main global and regional issues are similar or even identical,” he said.*

*Significantly, the Russian President said an upcoming Asian Summit will try to establish a new security architecture in the Asia Pacific.*

“Russia and China have actively advocated establishing a new security and sustainable development architecture in the Asia-Pacific. It should be based on the principles of equality, respect for international law, indivisibility of security, non-use of force or threat of force. Today this task is becoming increasingly important,” he said.

*Putin’s statements assume importance in the backdrop of the Obama administration’s thrust on the much-hyped Asia Pivot and what Beijing alleges is it’s “China containment” policy.*

Meanwhile, alluding to a currency swap agreement, Putin said the two nations will also look to guard against fluctuations of foreign currencies affecting bilateral trade.

“We must also strengthen financial cooperation and protect ourselves from exchange-rate fluctuations among the world’s major currencies. Therefore, we are now considering how to increase mutual settlements in national currencies,” he said.

*In 2013, the volume of bilateral trade was close to $90 billion. The two sides are targeting $100 billion by 2015 and up to $200 billion by 2020 in bilateral trade.*

***

Here, some excellent infographic:

***

Gazprom to sign monumental gas deal with China

*Russia and China are due to sign a long-awaited gas contract on Tuesday, in which Beijing could pay up to $456 billion for Russian gas over the next 30 years.*

While Russian President Vladimir Putin visits Shanghai on May 20-21, Gazprom and the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) are *due to sign a deal for 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas to power China's growing economy, starting in 2018.







The timing is almost flawless as Russia is looking to shield itself from Western sanctions by pivoting towards Asia, and China desperately needs to switch from dirty coal to more environmentally friendly natural gas.

“The arrangements on export of Russian natural gas to China have nearly been finalized. Their implementation will help Russia to diversify pipeline routes for natural gas supply, and our Chinese partners to alleviate the concerns related to energy deficit and environmental security through the use of ‘clean’ fuel,” President Vladimir Putin said.

The deal has been on the table for over 10 years, as Moscow and Beijing have negotiated back and forth over price, the gas pipeline route, and possible Chinese stakes in Russian projects. The gas price is expected to be agreed at between $350-400 per thousand cubic meters. In January Gazprom gave an estimate between $360-$400 per 1,000 cubic meters but now Russian newspaper Izvestia has cited a Gazprom employee forecasting a lower range between $350-$380 per 1,000 cubic meters.

“Of course Russia wants to sell gas and resources at the highest possible prices. But because of the sanctions from European partners, we need to find a partner that can buy our gas long-term, which is why at the moment China looks very attractive to us,” Aleksandr Prosviryakov, a partner at Lakeshore International, a Moscow-based asset management firm, told RT at a Confederation of Asia Pacific Chambers of Commerce and Industry (CACCI) in Moscow ahead of the big meeting on Tuesday.

On Sunday, Gazprom chief Aleksey Miller sat down with his CNPC counterpart, Zhou Jiping, in Beijing to discuss final details, including price formulas.

Siberian pipeline to China

But the sticking point is how to finish the pipeline from Russia to China.

Currently there is one complete gas pipeline that runs throughout Russia to the Chinese border, “Siberian Power” which Gazprom broke ground on in 2007, three years after Gazprom and CNPC signed a strategic cooperation agreement in 2004.

The pipeline stretches across Russia’s Far East and after extension to China, it will deliver gas to the country’s populous north, near Beijing.

Gas could be delivered via Vladivostok, Russia’s eastern port city on the Sea of Japan, or through the city of Blagoveshchensk, an landlocked city in the Amur region.

However, to finish the project for 2018 delivery, Gazprom and CNPC need to come to an agreement on how to finish the proposed portion of the pipeline into China, which could cost between $22-30 billion, according to various estimates. Russia wants China to either pay or issue a loan for the project, which has been a delaying factor in talks.

In 2009, Beijing and Moscow signed a deal that Gazprom would supply China with 30 billion cubic meters of gas a year by 2015, but via the Altai pipeline, which would deliver gas to China’s Western Xinjiang province. Russia stopped work on this project in 2013 and prioritized the ‘Power of Siberia’ line. If and when both pipelines are activated, Russia could be pumping 68 billion cubic meters of gas annually to the world’s second largest economy.

China, the superpower

Home to nearly 1.5 billion people, China’s demand for energy is rising faster than ever. In 2014, the country expects to increase natural gas imports by 20 percent, and import 186 billion cubic meters annually.

“This deal with Gazprom and cooperation with Russia shows that China is expanding, becoming bigger and bigger, and that this part of the world is dominated by China, India, and Russia, the US role is shrinking,” said Aleksandr Prosviryakov.

“China is the fastest growing economy. China is the biggest market in terms of volume and value. China is the next superpower and number one economy in the world,” Peter Panov, Chairman of Triotoni, a Singapore-based investment firm, told RT at the CACCI conference in Moscow.

Russia’s Deputy Energy Minister Anatoly Yanovsky has said the deal is 98 percent ready. China has kept quiet on the subject.

Europe remains Russia’s largest energy importer, having bought more than 160 billion cubic meters of natural gas in 2013. However, recent tensions over Russia’s actions in Ukraine have forced European ministers to rethink their dependence on Russian gas, a sentiment that has been openly voiced throughout the continent

“Now is the time for Russia to compromise a little bit so that they can lessen their dependence on Western Europe as a buyer of Russian gas. Diversification is a strategy for Russia to have good long-term business relationships with both Europe and China,” Benedicto Yujuico, president of the Confederation of Asia-Pacific Chambers of Commerce and Industry, told RT at an Asian business gathering in Moscow on Wednesday.

“Needless to say, China is a very wise nation and will try and get the best out of both parties, and maneuver: give a little bit to Russia, and a little to the West,” Panov said.

Gas is an important element of the upcoming talks, but the leaders will discuss many aspects of Russia-China relations, including payments systems, military cooperation, and upcoming infrastructure projects.

A record amount of agreements are expected to be signed at the working meeting between Russia and China. Already 30 out of the 43 prepared agreements are expected to be inked, according to presidential aide Yury Ushakov, as reported by RIA Novosti.*

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## steelseries779

(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin hopes to sign a multi-billion dollar gas agreement with China during a two-day visit that kicks off on Tuesday, ending more than a decade of false starts and wrangling over a deal seen as vital to both sides.

More broadly, the Russian leader, cold-shouldered in the West for his stance on Ukraine, can expect a warmer reception in China, itself increasingly assertive in territorial disputes with smaller neighbors in the South China Sea.

*The crisis in Ukraine, which has left European countries looking at ways to reduce dependency on Russian natural gas supplies, and Beijing's drive to switch from coal use to cleaner fuels, have created a convergence of interests.*
Analysts said that will be on display when Putin meets Chinese President Xi Jinping in Shanghai, although the success of his visit will rest in part on whether any energy agreement contains enough detail to take it beyond mere words.

Chinese state media on Monday quoted Putin as saying that preparations for a gas deal had entered "the final phase".

Negotiations in the past have collapsed over differences on pricing.

Russia's state-controlled Gazprom said at the weekend that it was still "one digit" away from a deal.

But on Monday, sources close to the company and in the gas industry said *it wanted China to pay $25 billion now to secure future gas supplies, whereas China had so far been reticent, concerned that other suppliers would seek similar deals.*

"We are pinning our hopes on Putin's May visit," a source at Gazprom said.

For its part, Beijing has been pushing to secure equity stakes in gas fields in eastern Siberia, which would be the main source of supply.

The agreement that could be signed is a 30-year contract for Gazprom to supply China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) with 38 billion cubic meters (bcm) of natural gas per year.

Should the deal be finalized this week, construction of a new pipeline is expected to begin by the end of 2014 and start delivering gas by 2018.

China's Xi has underscored the importance of ties with Russia, and Moscow was the first capital he visited after assuming the presidency last year. Xi also attended the Winter Olympics in Sochi at Putin's invitation.

But, while the two see eye-to-eye on many international diplomatic issues, including the conflict in Syria, and generally vote as one on the United Nations Security Council, China has not been so willing to support Russia on Ukraine.

"Generally speaking, on the Ukraine issue we have taken an objective and just stance," Liu Guchang, a former Chinese ambassador to Russia and adviser to the foreign ministry, told Reuters. "All peoples and parties have to be respected. But we have seen very clearly the reality of the situation."

Beijing has adopted a cautious response to the Ukraine crisis, not wanting to alienate a key ally.

It has not commented directly on a referendum in which Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, lest it set a precedent for its own restive regions including Tibet.

While in Shanghai, Putin will also meet U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to discuss the Ukraine crisis.

Kiev holds a presidential election on Sunday, and in a move that could be intended to ease tensions in the region ahead of the vote, Putin ordered military forces to return to permanent bases after drills in three regions bordering Ukraine.

Putin's office said he had issued the order because the spring maneuvers were over, but in Brussels, a NATO military officer said the military alliance had seen no sign of Russian troops returning to their bases.

_(Additional reporting by John Ruwitch in Shanghai and Olesya Astakhova and Vladimir Soldatkin in Moscow; Editing by Mike Collett-White)_

China is really smart on this issue. China can always find suppliers, but Russia cannot find appropriate buyers ATM.

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## Irajgholi

china should play its cards smart. import the cheapest gas possible. time for russia to pay back for backstabbing chinese in good ol' days.


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## northeast

I heard that Russia still want to sell gas to china at a price that higher than it sells to europe.That is unacceptable.

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## Irajgholi

northeast said:


> I heard that Russia still want to sell gas to china at a price that higher than it sells to europe.That is unacceptable.



why china doesn't build iran gas fields?


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## northeast

Irajgholi said:


> why china doesn't build iran gas fields?


Cuz iran want to get all profit from those gas fields.

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## Irajgholi

northeast said:


> Cuz iran want to get all profit from those gas fields.



r u sure? iran offers good contract to china but china fears to invest because of sanctions. they gave chinese pretty good contracts, but they didn't start the projects ;/


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## northeast

Irajgholi said:


> r u sure? iran offers good contract to china but china fears to invest because of sanctions. they gave chinese pretty good contracts, but they didn't start the projects ;/


No，The contracts are very strict.they don't start the projects because there is no profits，not the sanctions.China can always create a new company that don't have anything to do with the west to do this job.

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## Irajgholi

northeast said:


> No，The contracts are very strict.they don't start the projects because there is no profits，not the sanctions.China can always create a new company that don't have anything to do with the west to do this job.



but some of the chinese companies were awarded contracts in 2008 if im not mistaken. if it wasnt profitable for them they wouldn't participate right? however, i think things r more complicated that u put it. chinese companies still need to use western technology to drill in iran (in particular for LNG), if words get out that they r using western technology in their iran projects these companies could be brought to international courts.

anyway, iran revised its contracts u guys should go ahead.


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## northeast

Irajgholi said:


> but some of the chinese companies were awarded contracts in 2008 if im not mistaken. if it wasnt profitable for them they wouldn't participate right? however, i think things r more complicated that u put it. chinese companies still need to use western technology to drill in iran (in particular for LNG), if words get out that they r using western technology in their iran projects these companies could be brought to international courts.
> 
> anyway, iran revised its contracts u guys should go ahead.


well，I guess they must thought the risk is bigger than the profit

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## Hamartia Antidote

northeast said:


> I heard that Russia still want to sell gas to china at a price that higher than it sells to europe.That is unacceptable.



Expect plenty of stuff like that. Search for "Putin Corruption"


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## senheiser

northeast said:


> I heard that Russia still want to sell gas to china at a price that higher than it sells to europe.That is unacceptable.


no its not, its a bit cheaper than europe



Irajgholi said:


> why china doesn't build iran gas fields?


because Iranian gas is more expensive 


this is how much europe would have to pay for iranian gas





now add the route trough pakistan and himalaya mountains or trough central asia. Russia will also soon establish lng plants in vladivostock and yamal peninsula so even russian LNG will be cheaper in all of Asia



Irajgholi said:


> china should play its cards smart. import the cheapest gas possible. time for russia to pay back for backstabbing chinese in good ol' days.



when did we backstabb china?

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## Irajgholi

senheiser said:


> no its not, its a bit cheaper than europe
> 
> 
> because Iranian gas is more expensive
> 
> 
> this is how much europe would have to pay for iranian gas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now add the route trough pakistan and himalaya mountains or trough central asia. Russia will also soon establish lng plants in vladivostock and yamal peninsula so even russian LNG will be cheaper in all of Asia



u r not very good at reading your own source? r u? do u even know what CAPEX is? this is not even accurate considering the current situation, iran infrastructures need complete overhaul, and pipelines needs to be constructed. if u take into account the cost after the overhaul iran oil and gas will be among the cheapest in the world.


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## USAHawk785

Quid pro quo duo gemens.


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## Irajgholi

senheiser said:


> when did we backstabb china?



not very good at history either?


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## senheiser

Irajgholi said:


> not very good at history either?



we grabbed land from china in outer Manchuria but so did every power at that time: France, Portugal, Britain, Germany & Japan







But unlike the British we took land that wasnt inhabited while they took Chinas crown gem Hong Kong and forced then to buy their drugs

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## Tractor

senheiser said:


> we grabbed land from china in outer Manchuria but so did every power at that time: France, Portugal, Britain, Germany & Japan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But unlike the British we took land that wasnt inhabited while they took Chinas crown gem Hong Kong and forced then to buy their drugs


Look at this 'history' map,all the good places are out of China.Who made it?
Up to the KOREA and right to the BHUTAN.


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## Irajgholi

senheiser said:


> we grabbed land from china in outer Manchuria but so did every power at that time: France, Portugal, Britain, Germany & Japan



im talking about chickening out when chinese had to deal with usa.



senheiser said:


> But unlike the British we took land that wasnt inhabited while they took Chinas crown gem Hong Kong and forced then to buy their drugs



lol really? u guys have long history of backstabbing other nations. as a matter of fact these idiot mullahs who r dragging iran into shit forgot that it was your guys that took away 40% of the country in 1813 and 1828 respectively.

at least britain gave back hong kong in good condition , on the other hand wherever you guys set foot has turned into shit.

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## cnleio

Putin arrived China ShangHai

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## cirr

*China, Russia vow to advance cooperation *

(Xinhua) 09:45, May 20, 2014





Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang (R) meets with Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin during the chairmen meeting of the joint commission for the regular meetings of Chinese and Russian Prime Ministers in Beijing, capital of China, May 19, 2014. (Xinhua/Ding Lin)

BEIJING, May 19 -- Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang on Monday held talks with Russian Deputy Prime Minster Dmitry Rogozin in Beijing.

Wang, also Chinese Chairperson of the Joint Commission for the Regular Prime Ministers' Meetings of China and Russia, praised the close and effective coordination between the two governments, saying the two sides have made full preparation for the upcoming meeting between the two leaders in Shanghai.

Russian President Vladimir Putin will pay a state visit to China from May 20 to 21 at the invitation of Chinese President Xi Jinping and attend the fourth summit of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia in Shanghai.

Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping said last week that China and Russia are expected to reach agreements on natural gas during Putin's visit.

Wang called on the two sides to give full play to the role of the high-level supervision working group on bilateral strategic projects, and actively push forward key cooperative projects, to boost bilateral pragmatic cooperation and achieve mutual benefits.

Rogozin, the Russian chairman of the intergovernmental commission, said Russia is willing to work with China to improve the efficiency of the cooperative mechanisms between the two governments, expand the areas of cooperation and actively push forward bilateral cooperation on strategic projects.





Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang (front R) and Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin (front L) sign a meeting memos after the chairmen meeting of the joint commission for the regular meetings of Chinese and Russian Prime Ministers in Beijing, capital of China, May 19, 2014. (Xinhua/Ding Lin)


China, Russia vow to advance cooperation - People's Daily Online

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## steelseries779

senheiser said:


> we grabbed land from china in outer Manchuria but so did every power at that time: France, Portugal, Britain, Germany & Japan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But unlike the British we took land that wasnt inhabited while they took Chinas crown gem Hong Kong and forced then to buy their drugs



At that time, Britain was already an industrialized country with the rest of the worlds as its market and raw material supplier , China was forced into the Western's system by opium. Russia was a different example, you are not as industrialized as the west in 19th century, you even didn't abolish the Serfdom. When the opium began, you were even not well prepared for the industrialization. It was in late 19th century when you finished it, although it was done, not the same level as west Europe. So you only interested in grabbing as much land as you could, while the west care more about whether their product sold well in a 0.4 billion population market. This is one reason why they give the land back to China, they only focused on economy aspects. Another reason would be the distance, they were far from China, they couldn't control the situation.

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## steelseries779

Irajgholi said:


> im talking about chickening out when chinese had to deal with usa.
> 
> 
> 
> lol really? u guys have long history of backstabbing other nations. as a matter of fact these idiot mullahs who r dragging iran into shit forgot that it was your guys that took away 40% of the country in 1813 and 1828 respectively.
> 
> at least britain gave back hong kong in good condition , on the other hand wherever you guys set foot has turned into shit.



Yeah it's true, but now we have to cooperate with Russia.

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## northeast

steelseries779 said:


> Yeah it's true, but now we have to cooperate with Russia.


No，we could but we don't have to.

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## vostok

tranquilium said:


> I always thought that Yeltsin is main one responsible, Gorbachev is just the straw that broke the camel's back.
> 
> The leadership continuity issues was huge. One of the reason for the later instability in USSR was the rapid change of leadership between Andropov and Chernenko due to advanced age. Fun fact, this is actually one of the reason Jiang Zemin rose to power. After Chernenko, the Chinese leadership realized that problem with leaders that are 70+ years old and begun a program to promote younger leaders. Jiang is among the group of people fast tracked by the program. It was fortunately that Deng himself is so long lived (lived to 93) that by the time of his death , enough 50 to 60 year olds are in office that the next generation leaders can transition smoothly.


Yeltsin, Yakovlev, Gaidar, Chubais, Kravchuk, Shushkevich and others - a consequence of the criminal policies of Gorbachev. 
In one of his speeches in American universities Gorbachev boasted that he managed to destroy the Soviet Union for six years. He did it with conviction and purpose.

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## xunzi

I want to see our country take higher technology cooperation with Russia to a new level. Let cooperate with Russia Space agency for a manned mission to outer planet. If NASA rejects us, let do it with Russia.

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## xunzi

vostok said:


> Without a doubt, our relations will improve, as it should be among friends and neighbors.
> My opinion about the Soviet leader ? In short. Lenin made the world's first socialist revolution. He is no doubt a great man. His main mistake was that he created the Soviet Union as a federation rather than as a unitary state. Stalin was greatest among Soviet leaders. Moreover , I believe that Stalin - one of the greatest men in the history of mankind. He picked up power in a semi-feudal war-ravaged Russia and left it as superpower. He helps to many nations in the fight against Western colonial empires and the puppet pro- Western regimes. Khrushchev destroyed much of what made Stalin . The worst that Khrushchev did - he made a criticism of Stalin than caused irreparable damage to the image of communism in the eyes of all mankind . And he destroyed the State Planning Commission - a powerful office, thanks to the hard work of which the Soviet economy reached 20 % growth.
> Brezhnev partially corrected the errors of Khrushchev , but not enough. Under Brezhnev, the Soviet Union lost leadership in science . Andropov was a strong man , General . He planned cleansing ranks of Party from Western agents which in 80`s has been a lot. He was killed , as well as Stalin. About Chernenko I know nothing , except that he was very old and very sick.
> Gorbachev - history rightly will put him on par with Judas and Brutus . The greatest traitor for two thousand years. Absolutely despicable person .


I really wish you can educated our little brother Vietnam on the history of Sino-Soviet split. They been blaming us for backstabbing them when in fact it was the traitorous Khrushchev that ruin our Communist brotherhood.

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## vostok

xunzi said:


> I want to see our country take higher technology cooperation with Russia to a new level. Let cooperate with Russia Space agency for a manned mission to outer planet. If NASA rejects us, let do it with Russia.


I also think that Russia should cooperate in space not with the West - with China and India.

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## xunzi

Mao1949 said:


> Greatest Chinese leader in history is Mao. Other names you said came about due to Mao's hard work. Without Mao there is no modern China. Mao formed his own party, got support from the peasants and resisted the Japanese military, defeated the American puppet KMT, kicked the colonial foreigners out of China, kicked US out of North Korea, beat India, got back Xinjiang and Tibet, put satellite into space, built nuclear weapons, built missiles, increased Chinese population to give advantage we have now, gave China an independent foreign policy, protected Chinese sovereignty, etc
> 
> Mao was a revolutionary and a charismatic man. The job of others were made pretty easy due to the foundation laid by Mao. Mao made a few economic mistakes in his later years that were costly in human life and resources but never ever forget all the positives he contributed to China. Mao had to do all the hard work. What he did is 1000 times harder than doing a bunch of economic reforms like Deng Xiaoping and Zhu Rongji. China had nothing and Mao protected Chinese interests with very limited resources.
> 
> China was in the biggest mess in our history with very strong rivals and China at its weakest, yet Mao somehow strengthened Chinese power. For that, Mao is the greatest Chinese that ever lived.


Mao is no doubt one of the top Chinese leader but objectively speaking, it depends on era and time. In time of war, Mao is the best. In peace time, Deng is the best. Mao provided the foundation for modern PRC but his mistake in economy almost broke China's back and his aggressive stance almost got nuke from the USA. I will say that Mao got great help from Zhou Enlai. He played a very instrumental role in keeping Mao from turning into an insane anti-foreigners leader when at the time China needs help from the outside. I say, Mao couldn't swallow his ego and pride for the betterment of China progression. Deng, on the other hand, didn't have the help of a man like Zhou Enlai on his side. He shaped China economic foundation and turned it into what it is today. Deng also managed to hide China ambition but would not hesitate to use force if he had too. Remember his threat on British Margaret Thatcher into peeing her pant on HK issue? That is legendary. Had China follow Deng's model as soon as PRC was form, China would be in the developed club by 1980s. Also I don't believe Deng will ever allow foreign powers to intrude in China proper. He was one of the revolutionary leader, very instrument in keeping China out of trouble.

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## BoQ77

Russia denied to sell gas to China at low price


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## northeast

BoQ77 said:


> Russia denied to sell gas to China at low price


Why would they do that？They don't really need us.It's just some chinese cowards dream they would.Like the one said we “have to” cooperate with Russia.


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## sweetgrape

BoQ77 said:


> Russia denied to sell gas to China at low price


, So? If you don't know what to say on these, you can just shut up and get into another thread.

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## Mao1949

Still no agreement on the gas deal.


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## senheiser

Irajgholi said:


> im talking about chickening out when chinese had to deal with usa.
> 
> 
> 
> lol really? u guys have long history of backstabbing other nations. as a matter of fact these idiot mullahs who r dragging iran into shit forgot that it was your guys that took away 40% of the country in 1813 and 1828 respectively.
> 
> at least britain gave back hong kong in good condition , on the other hand wherever you guys set foot has turned into shit.



ohh really? how is it then that Kazakhstan which has large russian minority is the riches country in all of central asia including richer than iran? who have no russians?







its not our fault if we colonized backwards countries like you, for china its a different case


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## senheiser

steelseries779 said:


> At that time, Britain was already an industrialized country with the rest of the worlds as its market and raw material supplier , China was forced into the Western's system by opium. Russia was a different example, you are not as industrialized as the west in 19th century, you even didn't abolish the Serfdom. When the opium began, you were even not well prepared for the industrialization. It was in late 19th century when you finished it, although it was done, not the same level as west Europe. So you only interested in grabbing as much land as you could, while the west care more about whether their product sold well in a 0.4 billion population market. This is one reason why they give the land back to China, they only focused on economy aspects. Another reason would be the distance, they were far from China, they couldn't control the situation.



thats a very dumb excuse to force other people to consume their drugs. Also its not true russia was very industrialized under the czars, in 1910 or something its economy was bigger than germany and in 1925 it surpassed britain and became the second largest economy after the US
How China and India had always the biggest Economies for centuries


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## EastSea

USA and Russia play China cart.


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## BoQ77

sweetgrape: because I focus on the subject, you keep insulting ... so
i just stay and say,, you go away ...


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## AViet

Please refrain, guys. Vietnam and China are in heightening tension, but that does not mean you have to jump in to insult the Chinese in every threads. That does not help our country. Forumers from various countries are also seeing your comments.


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## Mao1949

Does anyone know many billions China will save from the price we want compared to the price Russia wants? 
Because a few billion extra is peanuts compared to the strategic supply of this gas and the environmental benefits. We probably get billions from the interest in our US bonds to pay for this gas. If we don't do this deal, it will be our loss, not Russia.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mao1949 said:


> Does anyone know many billions China will save from the price we want compared to the price Russia wants?
> Because a few billion extra is peanuts compared to the strategic supply of this gas and the environmental benefits. We probably get billions from the interest in our US bonds to pay for this gas. If we don't do this deal, it will be our loss, not Russia.



Exactly. 

Russian energy supplies will be VERY reliable for us, they cannot be pressured by America into cutting our energy supply. In fact they might even increase the supply to us if we ever get into a war with anyone.

Plus, China has the world's largest reserves of Shale Gas, it will be beneficial to us to have good infrastructure in place for large-scale gas usage, for the next few decades when we will be able to tap into our own reserves very strongly.

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## steelseries779

senheiser said:


> thats a very dumb excuse to force other people to consume their drugs. Also its not true russia was very industrialized under the czars, in 1910 or something its economy was bigger than germany and in 1925 it surpassed britain and became the second largest economy after the US
> How China and India had always the biggest Economies for centuries



No, it's not dumb, it's not excuse. Read this :


> While an insatiable demand for tea existed in Britain, *only silver was accepted in payment by China, which resulted in a chronic trade deficit.*[9] This trade led to the extensive use of European gold and silver in China.[10]
> 
> Britain had been on the gold standard since the 18th century, so it had to purchase silver from continental Europe and Mexico to supply the Chinese appetite for silver. Attempts by a British embassy (led by Macartney in 1793), a Dutch mission under (Van Braam in 1794), Russia's (Golovkin in 1805) and the British again (Amherst in 1816) to negotiate access to the China market were all vetoed by successive Emperors.[10]
> 
> By 1817, the British had decided that *counter-trading in narcotic Indian opium*, was a way to *reduce the trade deficit* and to turn the Indian colony profitable. The Qing administration originally tolerated opium importation, because it created an indirect tax on Chinese subjects, while allowing the British to double tea exports from China to England thereby profiting the monopoly on tea exports held by the Qing imperial treasury and its agents.



Before the first opium war in 1840, China always had trade trade surplus from the Britain. Chinese silk and tea sold well and helped to gain a constant cash inflow from the Britain, while China don't need their stuff at all, like wool, nylon. Besides, China shut down all the foreign trade relations with the rest of world, only leaving part of Canton as a place to do international trade. That's why in the first Nanking Treaty, they required Qing to open Guangzhou, Shanghai, Fuzhou, Xiamen, Ningbo as the treaty port, they just need this huge market.

Treaty of Nanking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Opium Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can't just compare the economy, the numbers. China was the biggest economy before 18th century, but she was actually falling behind the west, due to the industrialization. It was a turn, fall and rise.

The Germany abolished serfdom system in early 19th century, that was much earlier than Russia, which released so much work force from the farm land to the factories. Russia did this in 1861, half century later than Germany. In 1870, Germany's industrial output accounted for 13.2% of the whole world's. I think the real rise of Russia was in the 20th century, lead by the soviet union.

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## Irajgholi

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Plus, China has the world's largest reserves of Shale Gas, it will be beneficial to us to have good infrastructure in place for large-scale gas usage, for the next few decades when we will be able to tap into our own reserves very strongly.



China shouldn't waste its resources on importing its energy needs. Tap into your shale resources. Russians are the last people on earth that you would want to trust.

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## TaiShang

Putin, Xi hold talks in Shanghai
May 20, 2014






Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping have held strategic talks in Shanghai on Tuesday, following which two of the world’s most powerful leaders signed a “package of intergovernmental, interdepartmental and commercial documents on cooperation in the economy, trade, energy and the humanitarian areas”, said a Kremlin statement.

Putin said in Shanghai that “significant progress” had been made in the decade-long $400 billion gas supply agreement talks between Russia and China.

“I am glad to be informed that the two sides have made significant progress in the price negotiation of the east-route of the natural gas project,” Putin said during official talks with Xi.

Russia wants to reach a deal with China at an early date, he added. Over the past years, talks have stalled over price.

Meanwhile, head of Russia’s state gas company Gazprom Alexei Miller said in a statement said talks are still ongoing.

*“Talks are ongoing without interruption, both sides are looking for compromise. The contract could be signed on the basis of mutual benefit,”* Miller said.

The two allies have vowed to beef up cooperation in a wide range of fields, including finance, trade, energy and transportation infrastructure. More bilateral agreements will be inked tomorrow according to officials.

*According to a joint statement, the two neighbors will “establish the comprehensive energy cooperation partnership”.*

In the oil sector, they will deepen “a package of cooperation” and start Russia’s gas supply to China as soon as possible,” the document said.

*It also said that the two sides will enhance cooperation in the coal sector by joint exploration of mines and developing a transportation infrastructure in Russia.*

The two countries will speed up the construction of cross-border transportation infrastructure, including bridges on cross-border rivers, and Russia will facilitate China’s goods shipment using its railway networks, ports and through the Northern Sea route, said the statement.

The joint statement on Tuesday also stated that Russia and China stand strongly behind the six-party talks on the Korean Peninsula’s nuclear standoff and associated political and military tensions.

Both countries said the six-party talks are the “only pragmatic and effective solution to the Korean Peninsula nuclear issue”.

Putin, who is in China for a state visit, will also attend the fourth Summit of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia, which is scheduled to be held in Shanghai on Tuesday and Wednesday.

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## Mao1949

Moscow and Beijing have rejected the imposition of sanctions as political tools and condemned attempts at “encouraging and financing” regime changes in other countries in a joint statement released during President Putin’s official visit to China.

Having faced economic sanctions and threats of more of to come from the West, Russia has turned to the East, seeking to boost business ties in a friendlier environment. An impressive package of deals on energy, business and infrastructure has already been signed in Shanghai. 

More is yet to come, judging by the title of the joint statement by Beijing and Moscow, which promises “_a new stage in full-scale partnership and strategic relations_.” 

Boosting mutual trade is not all there is to that “_new stage_,” as following the meeting with Xi, the Russian president shared expectations of closer cooperation between the countries in international politics. 

“_We have common priorities on a global and on a regional scale,_” Putin said. “_We’ve agreed upon closer coordination of our foreign policy steps, including those in the UN, BRICS and APEC_,” he added.

Among attitudes Russia and China share is their mutual dislike of economic restrictions imposed for political reasons. 

“_The parties stress the necessity to… reject unilateral sanctions rhetoric_,” the joint statement reads. 

Economic restrictions applied as punishment are no better than financial aid to forces that seek “_a change in constitutional system of another country,_” the Russian-Chinese statement says. 

Moscow still feels bitter about the role it believes the US played in the Ukrainian coup. Russia hasaccused Washington of investing $5 billion in the regime change in Kiev. 

A number of European politicians, meanwhile, acknowledged the EU might have been pressing Ukraine too hard to sign the integration deal which, according to German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel, could have created “_the impression in Ukraine that it had to decide between Russia and the EU_."








The ongoing political crisis in Ukraine can only be resolved peacefully, Putin and Xi Jinping believe, calling on political opponents in Ukraine to switch from confrontation to dialogue. 

"_The sides urged all Ukrainian regions and public and political groups to enter in broad nationwide talks, develop jointly a concept of further constitutional development of the country, envisaging full observation of universally recognized rights and freedoms of people_," the statement reads.

*News rules for cyberspace*
Russia and China have called for creation of new “_universal rules of behavior in information space_,” citing concerns over some of communication technologies “_running contrary to international stability and security, damaging countries’ sovereignty and violating personal privacy_.” 

The ‘rules for internet’ comment comes amid scandal with US and China trading accusations of online espionage. 

On Monday, a grand jury in the United States indicted five Chinese military - allegedly officers of an elite cyber squad - with hacking into American computer networks and stealing sensitive business information from US companies. 

China dismissed all US accusations and published proof that Washington is actually stealing data from China. The Chinese Foreign Ministry also summoned the American ambassador to China for an explanation, urging him to drop all charges against China’s military officers.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Xi Jinping and Putin seem to get along really well in person. 

I'm looking forward to seeing some really huge deals during this visit.

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## cirr

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Xi Jinping and Putin seem to get along really well in person.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing some really huge deals during this visit.



The two chaps are scheduled to see each other in Nov。for the 3rd time in 2014.

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## Mao1949

*Sino-Russian package covers energy, infrastructure and high-tech sectors*

*A record-breaking 49 agreements were reached between Beijing and Moscow on Tuesday, covering political, trade and military areas in a move to further strengthen the Sino-Russian partnership.*

President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin also issued a joint statement on the future of bilateral relations.

*The two countries would expand local currency settlement for bilateral trade, cross-border investment and financing, and strengthen exchanges to formulate macro-economic policies, the statement said.*

Putin, who is visiting Shanghai for an Asian security summit, is accompanied by a huge delegation of high-ranking officials and business leaders.

It was the seventh time Xi and Putin had met since they both became heads of state more than a year ago.

Xinhua News Agency said in a commentary on Tuesday that the frequent top-level meetings indicate increasing friendly ties between Beijing and Moscow and deepening friendship between the two leaders — two cornerstones for the development of Sino-Russian relations.

Xi announced the agreements during a joint news conference after talks with Putin.

Although a long-awaited natural gas deal remained to be signed, both sides vowed to continue efforts.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters, "Talks will continue and substantial progress has been reached, but there is still work to do on price."

The total value of the deals signed remained unclear, but Putin's presidential aide Yuri Ushakov told ITAR-TASS news agency that the package would set a record.

*The 49-deal package includes cooperation in the finance, energy, infrastructure and high-tech sectors.*

The two countries vowed to increase bilateral trade to $100 billion by 2015 and to $200 billion by 2020, from $90 billion last year.

*Russia's trade volume with China could surpass that with the European Union, said Alexander Lukin, vice-rector at the Russian Foreign Ministry's Diplomatic Academy.*

*"Russia's trade turnover with China is on the rise and is now considered just as important. The more sanctions Europe will impose, the closer Russia will move to Asia, in particular to China," Lukin said.*

The package also highlights cooperation at local level on Chinese investment in Russia's Far East. ITAR-TASS reported that the *Russia-China Investment Fund would invest about $400 million on building the first Russian-Chinese border railway bridge across the Amur River (or Heilongjiang River in Chinese), capable of handling 21 million tons of goods annually.*

*The bridge would cut the cargo transportation route by 700 km and create a new export corridor, the news agency said.*

The two countries also strengthened military cooperation. Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that they would *jointly design a long-haul wide-bodied aircraft and produce Mil Mi-26 heavy transport helicopters in China.*

It quoted sources from the Russian delegation on Monday as saying that Russia's United Aircraft Corp had drawn up a sketch project and feasibility study for the long-haul, wide-bodied jet.

A source told Kommersant: *"This project is supposed to be a rival to US and European aircraft, and China is interested in building at least 1,000 jets. If the project is successful, we may set up a joint venture at some point to compete full-scale against Airbus and Boeing. We are prepared to buy these aircraft for domestic needs as well."*

Putin's visit came as Moscow's relations with the United States and the European Union have plunged in recent months over the crisis in Ukraine.

Vasily Kashin, an expert on Sino-Russian relations at CAST, a defense think tank in Moscow, said Russia was likely to try to use Putin's trip to boost ties with China at a time when relations with the West were strained by sanctions over Ukraine.

The Financial Times reported that under pressure from the West, Putin wanted to demonstrate that his government was not isolated and had partners that would help it to stand up to Europe and, particularly, the US.

But Gao Fei, a professor of Russian studies at China Foreign Affairs University, said a Sino-Russian strategic partnership was not due to pressure from the West, adding that both countries were striving to develop their economies and seeking solid foreign partnership.

Qu Xing, head of the China Institute of International Studies, said the Sino-Russian relationship featuring equality and mutual support stood as an example of relations between major powers.

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## BoQ77




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## Pangu

BoQ77 said:


>



You really are trying too hard my friend.


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## tranquilium

First part made certain sense, but probably won't be put into practice as all tools and leverages would be used in international politics, including economics and war. I think the main thing they are aiming at is the "unilateral" part. I am not optimistic about it though.

Second part is very interesting because while I am sure the statement is mainly aimed at cyber security, it certain hit a very interesting issue. Basically, it involves the issue that how should people behave in cyberspace. Should the standard social convention be applied to it? How much of the cyber space behaviour should be covered under legal territory? I always maintain that you shouldn't say anything on the internet that you are not prepared to say in the real life, but even I have to admit that I would say some stuff online that I wouldn't say in the real life out of politeness. There is, of course, the opinion that cyber space should be "as free as possible", but in my opinion, that's just a bad idea all around.

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## Pangu

*Russia and China seal historic $400bn gas deal*
Published time: May 21, 2014 09:29
Get short URL






RIA Novosti/Sergey Guneev

China, Energy, Gas, Natural resources, Russia, Trade
After 10 years of negotiations, Russia's Gazprom and China's CNPC have finally signed a historic gas deal which will provide the world's fastest growing economy with the natural gas it needs to keep pace for the next 30 years.

A memorandum of understanding was signed in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin and President of China Xi Jinping on the second day of Putin’s two-day state visit to Shanghai.






RT *✔* @*RT_com* 
Follow
_PHOTO: Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping celebrate 'gas deal of the century' between Russia, _China http://on.rt.com/jjn3m8
6:22 PM - 21 May 2014

The price China will pay for Russian gas remains a "commercial secret" according to Gazprom CEO Aleksey Miller. Gas will be delivered to China's via the eastern 'Power of Siberia' pipeline.

RT producers were informed of the landmark energy deal prior to its signing after a conversation with Miller.

Under the long-term deal, Gazprom will begin providing China's growing economy with 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas per year for the next 30 years, beginning in 2018. The details of the deal were discussed for more than 10 years, with Moscow and Beijing negotiating over gas prices and the pipeline route, as well as possible Chinese stakes in Russian projects.

Just ahead of Putin's visit to Shanghai, Russian Prime Minister DmitryMedvedev gave reassurance that the agreed price would be fair.

_“One side always wants to sell for a higher price, while the other wants to buy for a lower price,” Medvedev said. “I believe that in the long run, the price will be fair and totally comparable to the price of European supplies.”_

A major breakthrough in negotiations came on Sunday as Gazprom chief Aleksey Miller sat down with his CNPC counterpart, Zhou Jiping, in Beijing to discuss final details, including price formulas.

Although Europe is still Russia's largest energy market – buying more than 160 billion cubic meters of Russian natural gas in 2013 – Moscow will use every opportunity to diversify gas deliveries and boost its presence in Asian markets.

_“I wouldn’t look for politics behind this, but I have no doubt that supplying energy to the Asia Pacific Region holds out a great promise in the future,”_Medvedev said.

In October 2009, Gazprom and CNPC inked a framework agreement for the Altai project which envisions building a pipeline to supply natural gas from fields in Siberia via the western part of the Russia-China border.

In March 2013, Gazprom and CNPC signed a memorandum of understanding on Russian gas supplies to China along the so-called eastern 'Power of Siberia' route. When both pipelines are activated, Russia can supply Asia with 68 billion cubic meters of gas annually.

Last year, China consumed about 170 billion cubic meters of natural gas and is expected to consume 420 billion cubic meters per year by 2020.

Russia and China seal historic $400bn gas deal — RT Business

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## Raphael

No regime change. No sanctions. No asset freezes. No contract cancellations. This is the basic standard of civilized behavior expected from sovereign states. If they can't meet these standards, then they are a pariah state.

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## Raphael

Just yesterday the NYT was gloating about how China and Russia had failed to reach an agreement, before Putin had even left China:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/21/world/asia/china-russia.html?src=twr&smid=tw-nytimesworld

Western media is so shameless.

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## xuxu1457

Middle Asia area exports 80billion cubic meters gas to China every year, and Russia will export 68 cubic meters gas after 2018 every year

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## cirr



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## Tshering22

Good move. Time to dump the USD.

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## BoQ77

why create so many thread about this ... there's a thread focus on this ...
Congrat !!! I guess Russia accepted more reasonable price.
China may try to make a bargain with lower price yesterday.


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## eazzy

Yesterday every western journal said the deal would be delayed...

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## vostok



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## GreenFalcon

eazzy said:


> Yesterday every western journal said the deal would be delayed...


I guess they fear an Gas crisis in Europe and were hoping the deal wouldn't go through.

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## Arzamas 16

cirr said:


>




Putin is checking out that pretty little thing on his right

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## GreenFalcon

Arzamas 16 said:


> Putin is checking out that pretty little thing on his right


No wonder why the deal got signed very fast

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## Raphael

BoQ77 said:


> why create so many thread about this ... there's a thread focus on this ...
> Congrat !!! I guess Russia accepted more reasonable price.
> China may try to make a bargain with lower price yesterday.



There is only one other thread on this, which was speculative, whereas this is the final confirmation of the deal. Compared to the dozens of threads on something irrelevant like the oil rig.

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## BoQ77

SeanShah1003 said:


> No wonder why the deal got signed very fast



If Putin ready to leave without concluding the deal, then Chinese should think again.



cirr said:


>



If I were him, I thought "you must be mine tonight. I'm single now"

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## GreenFalcon

BoQ77 said:


> If Putin ready to leave without concluding the deal, then Chinese should think again.
> 
> 
> 
> If I were him, I thought "you must be mine tonight. I'm single now"


look at the guy behind the woman, He is looking at Putin and thinking to himself "This @ss is mine bitch"


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## Mao1949

DEAL OF THE CENTURY SEALED!!!!!

DONE DEAL!!!!

GAS GO!!!!

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## atlssa

Great news!
Now I want to see western countries talk about sanctions...

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## Devil Soul

*Russia's Putin signs 30 year gas deal with China*




Russia's President Vladimir Putin has signed multi-billion dollar, 30-year gas deal with China.

The deal between Russia's Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) has been 10 years in the making. No official price has been given but it estimated to be worth over $400bn.

Russia has been keen to find an alternative energy market for its gas as it faces the possibility of European sanctions over the crisis in Ukraine.

Gazprom shares rose 2% on the news.






How significant is the deal?

The agreement, signed at a summit in Shanghai, is expected to deliver some 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas a year eastward to China's burgeoning economy, starting around 2018.

The main argument has been over price and China is thought to have been driving a hard bargain.

Over the last 10 years it has found other gas suppliers. Turkmenistan is now China's largest foreign gas supplier, and last year it started importing piped natural gas from Myanmar.





Analysis: Jamie Robertson, BBC News
_The gas deal between Russia and China was signed at 4 am China time, which gives some indication of the level of urgency over these talks. Mr Putin appears to have been determined not to leave with Shanghai without a deal - and he got one._

_But the financial details are a "commercial secret", so we don't know how much he had to give away to get it. Certainly China needs the gas to help it cut its coal-fired smog levels, and it wants to diversify supply. It had the luxury of time in which to negotiate, something Mr Putin was short of._

_The perceived motive for the deal is that Russia needs a second market for its gas, so it can face up to European sanctions. Given that the "Power of Siberia" pipeline won't start pumping gas into Chinese factories until 2018 at the earliest, its economic effect on the European crisis will be limited._

_More important may be the investment that China will make into Russia's power and transport infrastructure. Putin may not have managed to sign the most advantageous of gas deals on Wednesday but the opening of economic doors with China could well be the greater achievement._





Rain Newton-Smith, head of emerging markets at Oxford Economics, said: "The whole tenet of the deal has a symbolic value - it says that the two countries are prepared to work with one another. For instance there were other elements such as Chinese participation in Russian transport infrastructure and power generation.

"It is similar in many ways to China's investments in Africa where they drive a hard bargain over the price of raw materials but then provide infrastructure for the economies they are doing business with."

Siberian power
Another sticking point on the deal has been the construction of pipelines into China.

Currently there is one complete pipeline that runs across Russia's Far East to the Chinese border, called "The Power of Siberia". It was started in 2007, three years after Gazprom and CNPC signed their initial agreement in 2004.

But financing the $22-30bn cost of sending it into China has been central to the latest discussions.

China is Russia's largest single trading partner, with bilateral trade flows of $90bn (£53bn) in 2013.

The two neighbours aim to double the volume to $200bn in 10 years.
BBC News - Russia's Putin signs 30 year gas deal with China

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## DT1010

haha, good new


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## Pangu

Hot chick reporting in Shanghai.

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## atlssa

EU should start looking into it's own problems instead of keep playing Monopoly with USA against Russia, because of Ukraine.

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## Tsilihin

New dimension for BRICS countries...
I just say ....Bravo.

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## Obambam

DT1010 said:


> haha, good new



The BRICS nations are on the verge of cross national trade in energy and other commodities, including technology, and they're going to do it with a mixed basket of currencies that could decimate the value of the U.S. petrodollar the world is forced to trade in. Good piece of news indeed!

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## conworldus

China and Russia ink $400 billion gas deal

*China and Russia ink $400 billion gas deal*

China and Russia signed off on a huge gas deal worth as much as $400 billion over 30 years. The deal has been in talks for about a decade, but experts see the timing of the final agreement as a move by Russia to avoid sanctions from the West. VPC

Calum MacLeod and Anna Arutunyan , USA TODAY8:23 a.m. EDT May 21, 2014
TWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE
BEIJING — China and Russia signed off on a huge gas deal worth as much as $400 billion Wednesday that heralds a pivot east for Russian business amid ongoing tensions with the West over Ukraine, though few details of the deal were made public.

The 30-year gas-export contract, seen as a move by Russian President Vladimir Putin to aggressively shift the country's commercial interests east amid mounting sanctions from the United States and Europe, was signed as the Russian leader has enjoyed a warm welcome in China, where the two countries have inked a raft of agreements during his ongoing, two-day visit.

The price China is paying for Russia's gas was not disclosed but the value of the agreement is thought to be somewhere near $400 billion.

The eleventh-hour deal represents "good news for both countries," said Shi Yinhong, an international relations expert at People's University of China, in Beijing. "The political requirements on both sides are so powerful they can overcome the concerns on price," he said. "This is a political action by both sides."

Talks for the deal had been going on for more than a decade and will see Russia export up to 38 billion cubic meters of gas per year, for 30 years, starting in 2018. The export agreement is significant because it will permit Russia to diversify the market for its gas away from Europe, which has threatened sanctions over Russia's incursion into Ukraine.

China's neutrality over Ukraine has begun "tilting" toward Russia, said Shi, but this deal will not fundamentally change a relationship he called "a convenient coalition, not an alliance." The agreement is an example of "selective cooperation, due to the situation in Eastern Europe, the Western Pacific and East Asia at this period," but on some issues their concerns remain incompatible, he said.

"It's a demonstration of the fact that Russia always has and always will have other options to develop relations elsewhere. The threat of isolation coming from the West will not be complete," said Sergei Utkin, political expert at the Russian Academy of Sciences.

Plans already announced by the two nations include building the first railway bridge over their long border, and manufacturing Chinese cars in Russia.

The neighbors, whose relationship has long been strained by distrust, promised Tuesday to increase bilateral trade to $200 billion by 2020, up from $90 billion last year.

Ahead of his visit to Asia's largest economy, Putin told Chinese media that China is a "reliable friend." The Russian leader, now spurned in the West for his annexation of Crimea in eastern Ukraine, received reliably positive media coverage Wednesday in China, where he enjoys personal popularity as a strong leader with a macho charisma unfamiliar in China's straitlaced political system.

Photos and comments highlighting Putin's masculine charm dominated social media sites, although some Internet users expressed pride that the portly Xi Jinping, China's leader, is at least taller than Putin.

Both countries consider the other a useful counterpoint to difficult relations with the United States.

While in China, Putin traveled to Shanghai to attend a two-day session of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia, a little-known Asian security group that includes Iran and several Central Asian states but not the U.S. or Japan, China's longtime rival in East Asia, and one of several maritime neighbors currently embroiled in disputes over territory with China.

On Wednesday, Xi told the summit that China is committed to peacefully resolving territorial disputes.

_MacLeod reported from Beijing, Arutunyan from Moscow_.

 flag: Russia

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## BDforever

conworldus said:


> China and Russia ink $400 billion gas deal
> 
> *China and Russia ink $400 billion gas deal*
> 
> China and Russia signed off on a huge gas deal worth as much as $400 billion over 30 years. The deal has been in talks for about a decade, but experts see the timing of the final agreement as a move by Russia to avoid sanctions from the West. VPC
> 
> Calum MacLeod and Anna Arutunyan , USA TODAY8:23 a.m. EDT May 21, 2014
> TWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE
> BEIJING — China and Russia signed off on a huge gas deal worth as much as $400 billion Wednesday that heralds a pivot east for Russian business amid ongoing tensions with the West over Ukraine, though few details of the deal were made public.
> 
> The 30-year gas-export contract, seen as a move by Russian President Vladimir Putin to aggressively shift the country's commercial interests east amid mounting sanctions from the United States and Europe, was signed as the Russian leader has enjoyed a warm welcome in China, where the two countries have inked a raft of agreements during his ongoing, two-day visit.
> 
> The price China is paying for Russia's gas was not disclosed but the value of the agreement is thought to be somewhere near $400 billion.
> 
> The eleventh-hour deal represents "good news for both countries," said Shi Yinhong, an international relations expert at People's University of China, in Beijing. "The political requirements on both sides are so powerful they can overcome the concerns on price," he said. "This is a political action by both sides."
> 
> Talks for the deal had been going on for more than a decade and will see Russia export up to 38 billion cubic meters of gas per year, for 30 years, starting in 2018. The export agreement is significant because it will permit Russia to diversify the market for its gas away from Europe, which has threatened sanctions over Russia's incursion into Ukraine.
> 
> China's neutrality over Ukraine has begun "tilting" toward Russia, said Shi, but this deal will not fundamentally change a relationship he called "a convenient coalition, not an alliance." The agreement is an example of "selective cooperation, due to the situation in Eastern Europe, the Western Pacific and East Asia at this period," but on some issues their concerns remain incompatible, he said.
> 
> "It's a demonstration of the fact that Russia always has and always will have other options to develop relations elsewhere. The threat of isolation coming from the West will not be complete," said Sergei Utkin, political expert at the Russian Academy of Sciences.
> 
> Plans already announced by the two nations include building the first railway bridge over their long border, and manufacturing Chinese cars in Russia.
> 
> The neighbors, whose relationship has long been strained by distrust, promised Tuesday to increase bilateral trade to $200 billion by 2020, up from $90 billion last year.
> 
> Ahead of his visit to Asia's largest economy, Putin told Chinese media that China is a "reliable friend." The Russian leader, now spurned in the West for his annexation of Crimea in eastern Ukraine, received reliably positive media coverage Wednesday in China, where he enjoys personal popularity as a strong leader with a macho charisma unfamiliar in China's straitlaced political system.
> 
> Photos and comments highlighting Putin's masculine charm dominated social media sites, although some Internet users expressed pride that the portly Xi Jinping, China's leader, is at least taller than Putin.
> 
> Both countries consider the other a useful counterpoint to difficult relations with the United States.
> 
> While in China, Putin traveled to Shanghai to attend a two-day session of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia, a little-known Asian security group that includes Iran and several Central Asian states but not the U.S. or Japan, China's longtime rival in East Asia, and one of several maritime neighbors currently embroiled in disputes over territory with China.
> 
> On Wednesday, Xi told the summit that China is committed to peacefully resolving territorial disputes.
> 
> _MacLeod reported from Beijing, Arutunyan from Moscow_.
> 
> flag: Russia


already posted


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## Pangu

Channel News Asia in Singapore reported that China could pay 25 billion upfront to Russia in this deal. Also, the transaction will be in Chinese Yuan. 

*ITAR-TASS News Agency graphics*

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## rockstar08

Arzamas 16 said:


> Putin is checking out that pretty little thing on his right



was that also part of deal


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## TaiShang



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## TaiShang

cirr said:


> The two chaps are scheduled to see each other in Nov。for the 3rd time in 2014.



Since they assumed office, the two leaders have met seven times so far. That's a deep level of personal friendship there other than professional.

We might just be watching a powerful security bloc in the making.

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## Beast

Raphael said:


> Just yesterday the NYT was gloating about how China and Russia had failed to reach an agreement, before Putin had even left China:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/21/world/asia/china-russia.html?src=twr&smid=tw-nytimesworld
> 
> Western media is so shameless.



They shall go some corner and cry themselves

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## northeast

Very good.

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

The Russian far east used to belong to the Imperial Qing. We have fallen so far, paying for gas from lands we used to own.

Imagine if the Qing dynasty did not cause its own decay! 

Spilled milk I know, but it is so bitter to look at what might have been.


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## Beast

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The Russian far east used to belong to the Imperial Qing. We have fallen so far, paying for gas from lands we used to own.
> 
> Imagine if the Qing dynasty did not cause its own decay!
> 
> Spilled milk I know, but it is so bitter to look at what might have been.



If China economy continue to grow in current pace. This 400 billions dollars of 30 years supplies are peanuts compare the finished product we produced and sell overseas to boast our GDP. And lastly, China still holds the largest reserve of shale gas in the world. This deal is more or less a political move to convince Russia to join our alliance to pit against the west.

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## cnleio

* $400bn gas deal! == building 400x 052D and 055 AESA DDGs* ... 

PLAN only need $100bn !!!

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## Declein

Beast said:


> If China economy continue to grow in current pace. This 400 billions dollars of 30 years supplies are peanuts compare the finished product we produced and sell overseas to boast our GDP. And lastly, China still holds the largest reserve of shale gas in the world. This deal is more or less a political move to convince Russia to join our alliance to pit against the west.



Step 1 : sale all you can to the west
Step 2 : create alliance and complain against the west

Logic = 0

Anyway, congratulations to China


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Beast said:


> If China economy continue to grow in current pace. This 400 billions dollars of 30 years supplies are peanuts compare the finished product we produced and sell overseas to boast our GDP. And lastly, China still holds the largest reserve of shale gas in the world. This deal is more or less a political move to convince Russia to join our alliance to pit against the west.



400 billion is peanuts?

The Russians are not friends of China and never have been. They are one of the 8 nation alliance who descended on the dying Qing and imposed their unequal treaties.

Pay for the gas but have no illusion that the Russians are allies of China.

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## eazzy

^ Make money and protect your interest. Logic = 10billion.

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## Beast

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> 400 billion is peanuts?
> 
> The Russians are not friends of China and never have been. They are one of the 8 nation alliance who descended on the dying Qing and imposed their unequal treaties.
> 
> Pay for the gas but have no illusion that the Russians are allies of China.



China economy in 2020 is expected to be 18 trillion USD so what do you think of 400billions USD in 30 years time?

Of cos, such cooperation is based on situation requirement. But do you expect China to take on the whole world without a single major allies if we bicker over such past matters? We shall not expect to have the vietnamese mentality of expecting to eat the whole pie while not prepare to sacrifice something(Earning China trade but still expect to fight with China over Spratly and Paracel island)

And think about it. It was the Soviet(Russia) who supply tech, know how and expertise to China in the 50s who help China build up a decent industries for us who just endure the Korea and Civil War. We shall not denied those really help lay the foundation for PRC.

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## ChineseTiger1986

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The Russian far east used to belong to the Imperial Qing. We have fallen so far, paying for gas from lands we used to own.
> 
> Imagine if the Qing dynasty did not cause its own decay!
> 
> Spilled milk I know, but it is so bitter to look at what might have been.



China has great chance to take back Outer Mongolia in the near future, but forget about the Outer Manchuria, it is not worthy to have MAD with Russia just for some Taiga forest.

Don't forget that we have the largest reserve of shale gas, this is the key point for our future energy resolution.

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## tranquilium

Declein said:


> Step 1 : sale all you can to the west
> Step 2 : create alliance and complain against the west
> 
> Logic = 0
> 
> Anyway, congratulations to China



The west is not a single entity. It refers to a collection of countries with conflicting agendas. For example, China does way more business with EU than USA and EU has no conflict with China in pacific. 

Also, just because you are rivals doesn't mean you can't do business with each other. In fact, being as strong as your rival is one of the easiest way to get into a better business position ever since cross border trade has been developed.

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## ice bomb

And the winner of the Ukrain crisis is............................. China.

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## steelseries779

Win-win situation for sure. This not only creates jobs, but the clean energy will also help alleviate China's environment burden. This 30 year deal is definitely a strong back for China's long term goal. This deal tied both countries together. A military and economy alliance between China and Russia is formed.

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## Zsari

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The Russians are not friends of China and never have been. They are one of the 8 nation alliance who descended on the dying Qing and imposed their unequal treaties.
> 
> Pay for the gas but have no illusion that the Russians are allies of China.



Think of China, Russia & US relation as that of three kingdoms. Right now China & Russia needs each other to counter balance the US, but do expect Russia to turn against China if China become the more dominating player of the 3. International relationship is about interests & power balance, and I don't believe Chinese leaders are naive.

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## mike2000

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The Russian far east used to belong to the Imperial Qing. We have fallen so far, paying for gas from lands we used to own.
> 
> Imagine if the Qing dynasty did not cause its own decay!
> 
> Spilled milk I know, but it is so bitter to look at what might have been.




lool well most countries in the world have more or less lost some lands, By your reasoning, India should be unified back with pakistan,sri lanka and bengladesh, the kurils should be returned to japan, mexico should retake california and new mexico, most subsaharan african countries should be reunited, Ireland should come back to the U.K, the soviet union should retake back all central and eastern european countries that were once part of the U.S.S.R, Russia should retake Alaska, paraguay should retake back half of its territory lost to Brazil and Argentina, Bolivia should also retake most of its territory lost to paraguay, germany should retake its territory lost to Poland, and poland to U.S.S.R, i can go on and on. But the point i'm trying to make is that humans are/will never be satified. we will always want more, even if China still had the russian far east, then it will still wish/want to have more land(say mongolia back or ryuku islands/okinawa etc.). Same with Britain wishing they still had their empire, or India wishing they were still united with \Pakistan/bengladesh/sri lanka etc. Countries territories will always change with time(witnessed the recent example of north and south soudan or Crimea). In say 50 or 100 years from now im sure the world territories will be very different from present, some will loose land other will gain. that is life/nature and we have to live with it. 

(On another note: I still wish we still had Hong kong and Australia under the U.K.)

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## terranMarine

Zsari said:


> Think of China, Russia & US relation as that of three kingdoms. Right now China & Russia needs each other to counter balance the US, but do expect Russia to turn against China if China become the more dominating player of the 3. International relationship is about interests & power balance, and I don't believe Chinese leaders are naive.



China is not the US who is busy trying to cause trouble at Russia's doorsteps. Georgia/Ukraine/missile shield Do i need to say more?

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## Chinese-Dragon

What FANTASTIC news. 

I want more Sino-Russian mega deals!

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## dexter

Its the same Sino-Russian alliance that kept US and its allies from attacking Syria 
Nice going

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## Zsari

terranMarine said:


> China is not the US who is busy trying to cause trouble at Russia's doorsteps. Georgia/Ukraine/missile shield Do i need to say more?



Yes, China is unlikely to cause trouble for Russia, but if and when China becomes too powerful, it is inevitable that US will try to reaproach the Russians, and Russia by then would find it in their interest to counter-balance China. Nothing is impossible, but having two powerful states co-exist peacefully next to each other without the presence of a threat from a third party is rather unlikely.

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## senheiser

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The Russian far east used to belong to the Imperial Qing. We have fallen so far, paying for gas from lands we used to own.
> 
> Imagine if the Qing dynasty did not cause its own decay!
> 
> Spilled milk I know, but it is so bitter to look at what might have been.









Quing empire never had access to east Siberian reserves

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## terranMarine

Zsari said:


> Yes, China is unlikely to cause trouble for Russia, but if and when China becomes too powerful, it is inevitable that US will try to reaproach the Russians, and Russia by then would find it in their interest to counter-balance China. Nothing is impossible, but having two powerful states co-exist peacefully next to each other without the presence of a threat from a third party is rather unlikely.



The US is on the other side of the Ocean, Russia and China are neighbours. The US shall always be a threat to Russia and China, after the fall of USSR thanks to Gorbachev look how things went between US and Russia under Yeltsin? While Yeltsin was pro West just like that Gorbachev the US and the NATO took down Yugoslavia who was a Russian ally. We can only hope future Russian leaders won't forget this. China surpassing the US economy is a good thing even to Russia, because that means we can have more deals with Russia. Who is also gonna benefit from a rising China? Russia ofcourse just look at the gas deal we just signed with them. This deal alone could weather off sanctions if EU wants to follow Sam's orders. A rising China and Russia is good for peace and the western hegemony.



terranMarine said:


> The US is on the other side of the Ocean, Russia and China are neighbours. The US shall always be a threat to Russia and China, after the fall of USSR thanks to Gorbachev look how things went between US and Russia under Yeltsin? While Yeltsin was pro West just like that Gorbachev the US and the NATO took down Yugoslavia who was a Russian ally. We can only hope future Russian leaders won't forget this. China surpassing the US economy is a good thing even to Russia, because that means we can have more deals with Russia. Who is also gonna benefit from a rising China? Russia ofcourse just look at the gas deal we just signed with them. This deal alone could weather off sanctions if EU wants to follow Sam's orders. A rising China and Russia is good for peace and weaken the western hegemony.

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## senheiser

BoQ77 said:


> why create so many thread about this ... there's a thread focus on this ...


because 400 billion is bigger than Vietnams current economy

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## Hasbara Buster

atlssa said:


> EU should start looking into it's own problems instead of keep playing Monopoly with USA against Russia, because of Ukraine.



They don't have the most sensible leaders.



Beast said:


> Pay for the gas but have no illusion that the Russians are allies of China.



In reality, sadly, nobody is nobody's ally.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China has great chance to take back Outer Mongolia in the near future.



I hope you were kidding.


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## eazzy

Just tell Mongolians to leave their barren land and come live in Inner Mongolia, which is very rich. Inner Mongolia is about 20m inhabitants while outer Mongolia is only 3m...I feel like China is not ambitious enough Lol. Just look at all the resources Mongolia has...

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## terranMarine

If only Mongolia's economy is in a dire state, they might be willing to join with China again.

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## ChineseTiger1986

terranMarine said:


> If only Mongolia's economy is in a dire state, they might be willing to join with China again.



The Mongolian Neo-Nazi clowns are just a tiny minority, whereas many Outer Mongolians actually envy the living standard in the Inner Mongolia.

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## terranMarine

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Mongolian Neo-Nazi clowns are just a tiny minority, whereas many Outer Mongolians actually envy the living standard in the Inner Mongolia.



They separated from China because our economy was sh!t after foreign invasions. Luckily plenty Mongolians did decide to stick with China and Inner Mongolia is now doing fine. Outer Mongolia is doing reasonable and most of their resources go to China just to keep their economy alive.

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## eazzy

Mongolia has good relations with the US too...that's why I say China should take step to make Mongolia part of China or at least a de facto vassal state...that country between Russia and China could cause problems if controlled by US...maybe support Inner Mongolia independence, Mongolian reunification...right now the first foreign language in Mongolians schools is English, it should be Chinese.

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## Irajgholi

Tshering22 said:


> Good move. Time to dump the USD.



are all indians so hostile toward the usa? r u aware of us contribution to your country?

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## idune

Most are focusing on $400 billion deal but combining with other 40 some deals signed between Russia and China, message in geo politics is profound.

Substitute USD and use of national currency is going to shock western financial systems. Industrial, infrastructure and economic engagement will tie both countries much greater ways than just gas deal. See the major deals done between:

-----------------------------------------

Russia has secured more than 40 business contracts with China during President Putin’s visit to Shanghai. Top is the $400 billion gas contract, there are also deals in finance, investment, aircraft, and automobiles. Here is RT’s list of key agreements.

1. Russia's Gazprom and China's CNPC signed a historic gas deal worth $400 billion, which will provide the world's fastest growing economy with the natural gas it needs to expand over the next 30 years.

2. The Russian United Aircraft Corporation and China's Commercial Aircraft Corporation COMAC have confirmed plans to build a 400-seat, wide-body, long-range passenger aircraft, a potential rival to Boeing of the US, and Europe's Airbus. The new program aims to become one of the biggest large-scale international cooperation projects in both aviation and high-tech.

3. Russia’s biggest independent natural gas company NOVATEK signed a deal to supply China's CNPC with 3 million tons of liquefied natural gas annually for 20 years from their joint Yamal LNG project in the Russian north. The plans for the Yamal LNG project involve building a plant that can produce 16.5 million tons of LNG annually by 2020. It is slated to start production in 2017 with an initial output of 5.5 million tons of LNG per year.

4. Russia’s second biggest financial institution, VTB, signed a deal with Bank of China to bypass the dollar and pay each other in domestic currencies.

5. SIBUR, a leading Russian gas processing and petrochemicals company, signed a contract with China Petroleum and Chemical Corporation or Sinopec to establish a joint venture for the construction of a nitrile butadiene rubber (NBR) plant to produce 50,000 tonnes a year. Sinopec's share in the joint venture will be 74.9 percent and SIBUR's will be 25.1 percent.

6. Chinese auto maker Great Wall Motor Co. said it is planning to build a car plant in Russia’s Tula region, investing up to $521 million in the project capable of producing up to 150,000 vehicles a year.

7. Russia and China agreed to build the first cross-border rail bridge over the Amur River by 2016. The bridge will cut transportation times and increase trade.

8. Russia's Eurocement signed a number of contracts with companies within the Sinoma, CNBM and Sinomach Groups for the supply of equipment to new cement plants in six different regions of Russia (Leningrad, Ryazan, Bryansk, Arkhangelsk Ulyanovsk and Samara Region). The contracts are valued at more than $500 million.

9. Russia-China Investment Fund (RCIF) and Vcanland, a leading Chinese tourism developer, have agreed to invest $800 million in the development of tourism and social projects. The geographical focus will be on destinations such as Hainan Island, Lake Baikal, and the cities of Vladivostok and Sochi.

Key Russia-China deals — RT Business

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## eazzy

^ Very good.

But maybe I'm obsessed with Mongolia...but... ITAR-TASS: World - Mongolian president invites Russia’s Putin in Mongolia and proposes to abolish visas speaking Russian, calling for no visa...and China ? Mongolia's relationship status with China? Complicated. - CSMonitor.com

88% of Mongol export go to China...Mongolians leaders should be businessmen making money with China...


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## KingMamba

Irajgholi said:


> are all indians so hostile toward the usa? r u aware of us contribution to your country?



Indians became more hostile after the diplomatic incident but the poster you are quoting has always preferred Russia over US, most Indians are actually more diplomatic.

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## idune

Irajgholi said:


> are all indians so hostile toward the usa? r u aware of us contribution to your country?



Historically india was against US. But after 9/11 US, judging indian anti Muslim stand, mistook india as friend. US showered indian with many economic and strategic benefit. Throughout india back stabbed US interest many times. Only recently US realizing india is no friend but a two face snake.

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## BoQ77

senheiser said:


> because 400 billion is bigger than Vietnams current economy



this forum benefit any difference from that 400 billion ?


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## terranMarine

eazzy said:


> ^ Very good.
> 
> But maybe I'm obsessed with Mongolia...but... ITAR-TASS: World - Mongolian president invites Russia’s Putin in Mongolia and proposes to abolish visas speaking Russian, calling for no visa...and China ? Mongolia's relationship status with China? Complicated. - CSMonitor.com
> 
> 88% of Mongol export go to China...Mongolians leaders should be businessmen making money with China...



Don't worry about Mongolia turning against China. They aren't that stupid, it's sandwiched between 2 military super powers, Russia and China have alot of influences in Mongolia. If Mongolia would join US/NATO do you think China and Russia would allow that? It's like asking for suicide.

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## BoQ77

In fact, Mongolia follows US


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## Pangu

Look at the lighter side of things, Putin shows Obama how to do a _real_ "Pivot To Asia."

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## Kyle Sun

BoQ77 said:


> If I were him, I thought "you must be mine tonight. I'm single now"


Nope , many western people have horrible body smell

And they like to use horrible cologne which make it even worse.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> What FANTASTIC news.
> 
> I want more Sino-Russian mega deals!



I think agreement was also made to joint-produce a wide-body passenger jet and a heavy transport helicopter.

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## ephone

Well, russia need some $ and we do have plenty.

So at least we buy something "concrete".


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## Kyle Sun

Kyle Sun said:


> Nope , Western smell horrible .
> 
> Horrible cologne smell can not kill even worse body smell.





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China has great chance to take back Outer Mongolia in the near future, but forget about the Outer Manchuria, it is not worthy to have MAD with Russia just for some Taiga forest.
> 
> Don't forget that we have the largest reserve of shale gas, this is the key point for our future energy resolution.


I do not think so . 

Outer Mongolia is independence country now . 

No way to annex a independence country in 21th .

Even if all mongolia people would like to come back , RU will not allow this happen.



Irajgholi said:


> are all indians so hostile toward the usa? r u aware of us contribution to your country?


People can not like a country who insult their female diplomat's ***



BoQ77 said:


> In fact, Mongolia follows US


That's the funny part. 

Mongolia can ally with any country except USA.

Mongolia is 100%surrounded by China and RU.



ephone said:


> Well, russia need some $ and we do have plenty.
> 
> So at least we buy something "concrete".


The biggest deal in history.

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## senheiser

*the other deals people forgot *

*Key Russia-China deals*
Published time: May 21, 2014 15:10
Get short URL







May 21, 2014. President Vladimir Putin, left, and Chinese leader Xi Jinping during the signing of joint agreements in Shanghai. (RIA Novosti/Alexei Druzhinin)


Russia has secured more than 40 business contracts with China during President Putin’s visit to Shanghai. Top is the $400 billion gas contract, there are also deals in finance, investment, aircraft, and automobiles. Here is RT’s list of key agreements.

1. Russia's Gazprom and China's CNPC signed a historic gas deal worth $400 billion, which will provide the world's fastest growing economy with the natural gas it needs to expand over the next 30 years.

2. The Russian United Aircraft Corporation and China's Commercial Aircraft Corporation COMAC have confirmed plans to build a 400-seat, wide-body, long-range passenger aircraft, a potential rival to Boeing of the US, and Europe's Airbus. The new program aims to become one of the biggest large-scale international cooperation projects in both aviation and high-tech.

3. Russia’s biggest independent natural gas company NOVATEK signed a deal to supply China's CNPC with 3 million tons of liquefied natural gas annually for 20 years from their joint Yamal LNG project in the Russian north. The plans for the Yamal LNG project involve building a plant that can produce 16.5 million tons of LNG annually by 2020. It is slated to start production in 2017 with an initial output of 5.5 million tons of LNG per year.

4. Russia’s second biggest financial institution, VTB, signed a deal with Bank of China to bypass the dollar and pay each other in domestic currencies.

5. SIBUR, a leading Russian gas processing and petrochemicals company, signed a contract with China Petroleum and Chemical Corporation or Sinopec to establish a joint venture for the construction of a nitrile butadiene rubber (NBR) plant to produce 50,000 tonnes a year. Sinopec's share in the joint venture will be 74.9 percent and SIBUR's will be 25.1 percent.

6. Chinese auto maker Great Wall Motor Co. said it is planning to build a car plant in Russia’s Tula region, investing up to $521 million in the project capable of producing up to 150,000 vehicles a year.

7. Russia and China agreed to build the first cross-border rail bridge over the Amur River by 2016. The bridge will cut transportation times and increase trade.

8. Russia's Eurocement signed a number of contracts with companies within the Sinoma, CNBM and Sinomach Groups for the supply of equipment to new cement plants in six different regions of Russia (Leningrad, Ryazan, Bryansk, Arkhangelsk Ulyanovsk and Samara Region). The contracts are valued at more than $500 million.

9. Russia-China Investment Fund (RCIF) and Vcanland, a leading Chinese tourism developer, have agreed to invest $800 million in the development of tourism and social projects. The geographical focus will be on destinations such as Hainan Island, Lake Baikal, and the cities of Vladivostok and Sochi.


+ plus other secret economic deals that shouldnt be published in the media military etc.

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## TheTruth

mike2000 said:


> lool well most countries in the world have more or less lost some lands, By your reasoning, India should be unified back with pakistan,sri lanka and bengladesh, the kurils should be returned to japan, mexico should retake california and new mexico, most subsaharan african countries should be reunited, Ireland should come back to the U.K, the soviet union should retake back all central and eastern european countries that were once part of the U.S.S.R, Russia should retake Alaska, paraguay should retake back half of its territory lost to Brazil and Argentina, Bolivia should also retake most of its territory lost to paraguay, germany should retake its territory lost to Poland, and poland to U.S.S.R, i can go on and on. But the point i'm trying to make is that humans are/will never be satified. we will always want more, even if China still had the russian far east, then it will still wish/want to have more land(say mongolia back or ryuku islands/okinawa etc.). Same with Britain wishing they still had their empire, or India wishing they were still united with \Pakistan/bengladesh/sri lanka etc. Countries territories will always change with time(witnessed the recent example of north and south soudan or Crimea). In say 50 or 100 years from now im sure the world territories will be very different from present, some will loose land other will gain. that is life/nature and we have to live with it.



Siberia is the sacred land of Altaic peoples. It should NEVER be under the grip of whites. Whether or not it's under China is not important. If the gas deal benefits Yakuts or Nenets then that's fine, but I highly doubt that.


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## terranMarine

TaiShang said:


> I think agreement was also made to joint-produce a wide-body passenger jet and a heavy transport helicopter.



US gas through fracking overstated by 96% ?


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## Mao1949

*SIGNING CEREMONY OF 'DEAL OF THE CENTURY'*

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## BoQ77

Kyle Sun said:


> I do not think so .
> 
> Outer Mongolia is independence country now .
> 
> No way to annex a independence country in 21th .



Agree. Some of your Chinese fellows still think they could annex some small countries as will.



> Even if all mongolia people would like to come back , RU will not allow this happen.
> 
> Mongolia can ally with any country except USA.
> 
> Mongolia is 100%surrounded by China and RU.



As above quote, an independent country has full right to ally to anyone they want ... don't be discrepancy.
As I know, Mongols tend to US following ... to be more independent among big neighbors


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## vivINDIAN

Any news on Russia-China-India pipeline....


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## cirr

Chinese-Dragon said:


> What FANTASTIC news.
> 
> I want more Sino-Russian mega deals!



How about shifting a quarter of our USD-denominated assets in Russia‘s way？

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## Pangu

vivINDIAN said:


> Any news on Russia-China-India pipeline....



India needs to deal with Russia first, then we can help with the big fat pipe in our backyard. So is Modi visiting Putin to strike a deal soon?

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## cirr

eazzy said:


> ^ Very good.
> 
> But maybe I'm obsessed with Mongolia...but... ITAR-TASS: World - Mongolian president invites Russia’s Putin in Mongolia and proposes to abolish visas speaking Russian, calling for no visa...and China ? Mongolia's relationship status with China? Complicated. - CSMonitor.com
> 
> 88% of Mongol export go to China...Mongolians leaders should be businessmen making money with China...



They are “scared” of China precisely because they know that their livelihood depends on China。

Mongolia might be rich in certain categories of resources，but China is its ONLY market，a huge market that can make the couple of million Mongolians extremely rich。

I don't blame them。

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## Kyle Sun

BoQ77 said:


> Agree. Some of your Chinese fellows still think they could annex some small countries as will.



it is understandable to have such kind of wish. Because Outer Mongolia once belonged to China not so long time ago


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## vivINDIAN

xudeen said:


> India needs to deal with Russia first, then we can help with the big fat pipe in our backyard. *So is Modi visiting Putin to strike a deal soon*?


he is yet to swear in....then we can expect any deals


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## Kyle Sun

BoQ77 said:


> As above quote, an independent country has full right to ally to anyone they want ... don't be discrepancy.
> As I know, Mongols tend to US following ... to be more independent among big neighbors



Just see what is happening in Ukraine .

UK just wants to join EU, and now they are in mess.

If Outer Mongolia wants to join China or US , it will also be in mess. Not that easy.



vivINDIAN said:


> he is yet to swear in....then we can expect any deals


He swears to build high speed train system ,right ?

I doubt it.


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## cirr

*Rosneft plans to ship 180,000 bpd to its China oil refinery from 2020*

Tue May 20, 2014 10:59am GMT

SHANGHAI May 20 (Reuters) - Russia's top oil producer Rosneft has reached an agreement to ship 180,000 barrels per day (bpd) of oil to its jointly owned Chinese refinery project from 2020, the company's head Igor Sechin said on Tuesday.

*The Kremlin-controlled company, which had already agreed on the volumes but had yet to pin down the start date, plans to triple its oil sales to China from the roughly 300,000 bpd shipped last year.*

The Tianjin refinery, a project between Rosneft and CNPC, will be operational by the end of 2019 with Rosneft shipping 9.1 million tonnes a year of crude oil for the plant from 2020 via the Pacific port of Kozmino, Sechin said during Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to China.

Sechin, a close ally of Putin, also said that Russia had offered to scrap extraction taxes for gas supplies designated for China, while Beijing was looking to abolish import taxes for Russian gas.

Rosneft has been lobbying for the rights to sell gas abroad via pipelines, aiming to end the monopoly of another Russian energy champion, Gazprom.

"We are talking about deposits that will be a source for gas supplies to the China market. This is a very smart and valuable proposal that can become a basis for compromise," Sechin told reporters.

Earlier on Tuesday, a Kremlin spokesman said Russia and China had not yet reached a long-awaited gas sales deal. (Reporting by Alexei Anishchuk; Writing by Vladimir Soldatkin; Editing by David Goodman)

Rosneft plans to ship 180,000 bpd to its China oil refinery from 2020| Agricultural Commodities| Reuters

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## vivINDIAN

Kyle Sun said:


> He swears to build high speed train system ,right ?
> 
> I doubt it.


lets see...he got five years time
people are expecting too much from him........not good


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## Kyle Sun

vivINDIAN said:


> lets see...he got five years time
> people are expecting too much from him........not good


First , high speed train system cost too much money.

Second , India do not need such kind of train , at least now. 

Third , India Gov's efficiency is not very good. 5 years to finish or start this is too hurry

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## vivINDIAN

Kyle Sun said:


> First , high speed train system cost too much money.
> 
> Second , India do not need such kind of train , at least now.
> 
> Third ,* India Gov's efficiency is not very good*. 5 years to finish or start this is too hurry


that is why we elected him...

we can expect high speed train by 2025...realistically


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## BoQ77

Kyle Sun said:


> Just see what is happening in Ukraine .
> 
> UK just wants to join EU, and now they are in mess.
> 
> If Outer Mongolia wants to join China or US , it will also be in mess. Not that easy.
> 
> 
> He swears to build high speed train system ,right ?
> 
> I doubt it.



UA not UK ... pal.
Ukraine in mess not because of their will to EU but because the rebels did not organize an official voting for a voted president before making some dangerous moves as threats to Russian security


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## xunzi

A a big-power alliance is about to be form in the 21st century in our very own eyes.

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## Pandora

Cant they extend this pipeline to pakistan? If this is possible then we can finally dump TAPI and IP projects as gas prices are unimaginably high.

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## Kyle Sun

BoQ77 said:


> UA not UK ... pal.
> Ukraine in mess not because of their will to EU but because the rebels did not organize an official voting for a voted president before making some dangerous moves as threats to Russian security



UKraine wants to side with NATO or US ,this action really piss off RU

Now the mess in UK is not about the president legal or not . 

If the interim Gov of Ukraine wants to side with RU,the situation will be different , what do you think ?



vivINDIAN said:


> that is why we elected him...
> 
> we can expect high speed train by 2025...realistically


2025 is too optimistic ,considering the infrastructure and industry of INDIA.


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## bolo

Zsari said:


> Yes, China is unlikely to cause trouble for Russia, but if and when China becomes too powerful, it is inevitable that US will try to reaproach the Russians, and Russia by then would find it in their interest to counter-balance China. Nothing is impossible, but having two powerful states co-exist peacefully next to each other without the presence of a threat from a third party is rather unlikely.


Chinese posters forgot that no nations are friends but driven by interest. I see too many posters using the word 'allies' with Russia, which is farthest from the truth. Expect the 三國 scenario going forward.



eazzy said:


> Just tell Mongolians to leave their barren land and come live in Inner Mongolia, which is very rich. Inner Mongolia is about 20m inhabitants while outer Mongolia is only 3m...I feel like China is not ambitious enough Lol. Just look at all the resources Mongolia has...


CPC not ambitious . Do not clump some great ancient Chinese rulers with these guys.

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## Tshering22

Irajgholi said:


> are all indians so hostile toward the usa? r u aware of us contribution to your country?



It has nothing to do with hostility towards the US as a country.

We want good relations with US but on equal terms where there is mutual benefits. The United States is not quite the 'donor' that international media makes out to be. They also reap rich dividends of having strong ties with us.

The problem comes when their policies start creating roadblocks for our country which has happened many times in the past and on most crucial of issues.

The recent toll US$ took on our economy directly and their government took indirectly through a weak puppet government under UPA is disastrous.

The problem is, dollar has no technical 'printing accountability'. Which means that they are free to print as much as they want and control the flows to such extent that it can destroy many currencies, particularly those countries that are weaker in manufacturing like we have been all this time.

China is immune because of its massive industrial complex that can churn out goods WORTH of all that is printed and therefore compensates it. Russia virtually calls the shots, sitting on some of the world's largest reserves of oil, gas, minerals, yellow cake and what not. Not to mention Russians are extremely powerful even today with an iron man who refuses to bow down to foreign dictat.

We on the other hand have been heavily dependent on service industry with almost zero manufacturing compared to what these our East Asian neighbours.

That has made us very vulnerable to tectonic shifts.

Lastly, I am anything but anti-US.

I am pro-India and will look for my country's interests, same as our new prime minister.

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## Tsilihin

Is very obviously that next big move will be Russian gas for India.


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## Tshering22

Kyle Sun said:


> First , high speed train system cost too much money.
> 
> Second , India do not need such kind of train , at least now.
> 
> Third , India Gov's efficiency is not very good. 5 years to finish or start this is too hurry



I agree. We need a 10 year term election.


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## Audio

Ofcourse the deal was signed. Gazprom provides 25% of Russian federal taxes, and now that it looks like it's going to be booted out of Europe, Putin will agree to just about any deal, to stave of recession and people wondering if his way is the correct way.


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## Irajgholi

@Tshering22 Thank you for your elaborate answer.  Its good to know other people's views.


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## Zsari

BoQ77 said:


> As above quote, an independent country has full right to ally to anyone they want ... don't be discrepancy.
> As I know, Mongols tend to US following ... to be more independent among big neighbors



Yes, sovereign state can dictate their foreign policy however they like, but landlocked between China & Russia while ally itself with the US is very poor decision for when you do need help, there is no way anyone would and can come to your rescue, not to mention it will antagonize the only two nations that you are bordering with to start with.


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## Mao1949

Audio said:


> Ofcourse the deal was signed. Gazprom provides 25% of Russian federal taxes, and now that it looks like it's going to be booted out of Europe, Putin will agree to just about any deal, to stave of recession and people wondering if his way is the correct way.



Can you provide proof of your 25% claim?


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## steelseries779



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## kalu_miah

It just proves that the US and NATO overstretched in Ukraine. Biggest blunder of the century. They may get Ukraine minus Crimea, but they have already lost Russia to China. Bad news for US and NATO and good news for China and Asia.

But not sure how India sees this. I think they are not sure how to feel about this.

My feeling is:
One Mountain Cannot Contain Two Tigers | Chinese Idioms & Upbringing

“One Mountain Cannot Contain Two Tigers” literally means that in an area, there cannot be two very strong personality people leading. Just like in a mountain, there will only be one king, one leader. If there are 2 tigers (2 kings), you can be sure, they will fight it out. Either that or one of the tiger leaves that mountain.

O ya, there can be another outcome. It is where one of the tiger pretends to be ‘not-a-tiger’ for a while. This leads to the second part of another Chinese Idioms “Pretend to be a Pig, to eat the Tiger”. Look out for that in my other post "

So India will pretend to be a pig to eat the Tiger later, unless of course it is cut down to size early on. It is not just the US and NATO that is a long term threat for China, but I believe it is India that has population size and the will to dream on and try to challenge China and that is why they will ally with US and NATO in the long term. I believe there is no other way getting around this eventual turn of events for either India or US led West.

In the above situation, will Russia still remains an ally to India?

10-15 years from now Russian weapons tech will loose out to China's tech. If not 10-15 years, it will definitely happen in 20 years, only people who cannot see this probably believes in White supremacy nonsense. What will India do then, will they still buy Russian weapons, I think not, they are already buying Western and Japanese weapons tech. So they are diversifying and will dump Russian weapons altogether at that time and go for Western weapons tech. China must incorporate a tighter alliance with Russia, sharing some tech, so that it still have a viable weapons industry, even after when India dumps them.

China must also work with Japan and South Korea to let them know that they should think about the long term and be on the Asian side and not become a traitor to Asia like India may become one day. For now they can still be on the US camp, but they should not get too close to India and supply them with weapons tech.

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## TheTruth

^ I think this depends on whether or not India's neighbors all continue hating India for being an imperialist piece of shit. But that doesn't seem like it's going to happen soon. I know India acts like a fat bully to her neighbors but why aside from the water sharing issues do Bangladeshis so distrust the Indian gov't?

@kalu_miah

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## GCTom

kalu_miah said:


> It just proves that the US and NATO overstretched in Ukraine. Biggest blunder of the century. They may get Ukraine minus Crimea, but they have already lost Russia to China. Bad news for US and NATO and good news for China and Asia.



Russia was never NATO's to lose. Russia have its own independent foreign policy and was never in NATO lead adventures against other countries. Also, Russia have very good relationship with China in the last few decades. Regardless if the Ukraine mess happened or not, it was in Russia's own interest to sign this oil deal soon or later anyway.



> But not sure how India sees this. I think they are not sure how to feel about this.



India is free to buy oil/gas from Russia too; as they do with weapons. I don't see China have any problem with it.

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## kalu_miah

TheTruth said:


> ^ I think this depends on whether or not India's neighbors all continue hating India for being an imperialist piece of shit. But that doesn't seem like it's going to happen soon. I know India acts like a fat bully to her neighbors but why aside from the water sharing issues do Bangladeshis so distrust the Indian gov't?
> 
> @kalu_miah



Many factors:

- it has to do with history, arrival of Muslims from Central Asia, first Turkics who created Delhi Sultanate and later Turkified Mongols who created Mughal empire and as a result there is today 500 million Muslims in South Asia and there is two countries called Pakistan and Bangladesh
Rise of Islam in Bengal, role of migration
- it has to do with delusional mindset that does not accept the above reality and wishes that the above never took place to begin with. So they have a policy of hostility to both Pakistan and Bangladesh and try to undermine our existence and well being in any way possible
- yet they will never accept a reunification with Muslim Bangladesh or Pakistan, because they fear that so many Muslims will end their Hindu majority and dominance, and the feeling is mutual, Pakistan separated from them in 1947, because we found that they have this delusional mindset to unreasonably assert their majority dominance in an unfair way
- since 1947 they schemed to break Pakistan and using media and cultural brainwashing specially in the Eastern part they were successful to find some useful idiots who would help them. In 1971, using these useful idiots they successfully instigated a civil war and then invaded East Pakistan to complete the job of break up. China was firmly against this breakup and did not recognize Bangladesh till the then Indian stooge Mujib was killed in 1975
- they have put dams on every international common rivers and are making Bangladesh a desert. With Pakistan they try to do it, but because Pakistan is a nuclear power state and people are little more conscious, and they have a water treaty, so they are forced to deal with Pakistan a little more fairly than they deal with Bangladesh
- we recognize that if we have to choose between China and India, we will always choose China, that is a no brainer, but that makes India more hostile and upset, because according to them, we must remain their vassal and not ally with anyone else, because we are their "backyard", the delusional mindset at work again
- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka would like to see North East states and Kashmir valley become independent and rest of India broken up in pieces along ethno-linguistic lines, so the size advantage is no longer there and using the size advantage they can no longer threaten its neighboring states



GCTom said:


> Russia was never NATO's to lose. Russia have its own independent foreign policy and was never in NATO lead adventures against other countries. Also, Russia have very good relationship with China in the last few decades. Regardless if the Ukraine mess happened or not, it was in Russia's own interest to sign this oil deal soon or later anyway.
> 
> India is free to buy oil/gas from Russia too; as they do with weapons. I don't see China have any problem with it.



Napoleon tried it, Hitler tried it, what makes you think they do not dream of lebensraum and all the resources in this vast country?

India is free to buy through maritime route, but pipeline no, because Pakistan and Pakistan's close ally China will not support pipeline over Pakistan land to supply India. Russia itself will not supply India, when India inevitably will ally with the West.

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## TheTruth

I see. That makes a lot of sense. I know the Bhutanese resent Indian meddling. I can't understand where this arrogance and belligerence comes from in India. I suppose it's because they don't feel respected on the international stage.

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## GCTom

kalu_miah said:


> Napoleon tried it, Hitler tried it, what makes you think they do not dream of lebensraum and all the resources in this vast country?



M.A.D. No matter how much some countries wants to hurt Russia they are not stupid enough to invade it because of MAD.




> India is free to buy through maritime route, but pipeline no, because Pakistan and Pakistan's close ally China will not support pipeline over Pakistan land to supply India. Russia itself will not supply India, when India inevitably will ally with the West.



As long as India can play fair and at the same time these pipelines bring benefit to Pakistan then I don't see any reason why Pakistand would go against it. Russia sells oil/gas to EU Nato members, then there is no reason why Russia can't/won't sell to India as long as India is willing to pay acceptable price to Russia.


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## TaiShang

Russia, China veto draft U.N. resolution on Syrian civil war

UNITED NATIONS, May 22 (Xinhua) -- Russia and China, two permanent members of the UN Security Council, on Thursday wielded veto power over a draft resolution which is intended to refer the Syrian civil war to the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The unadopted draft resolution, proposed by France, received 13 votes in favor and two against.

"The draft resolution has not been adopted owing to the negative votes of permanent members of the council," said Oh Joon, the South Korean permanent representative to the United Nations, who holds the rotating council presidency for the month of May.

The Thursday vote at the 15-nation UN body made it a fourth double veto by Russia and China on a West-drafted resolution on Syria.

Syria is not a state party to the Rome Statute which established the ICC, so the only way the Middle East country can be referred to The Hague-based tribunal is by the Security Council.

Under the UN Charter, the adoption of a draft resolution requires nine votes in favor and the absence of a negative vote by any of the five permanent members of the Security Council.

France, another permanent council member, circulated the draft resolution among the council members on May 12 in a bid to refer the Syrian civil war, current in its fourth year, to the ICC for review of alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity.

"The Security Council reaffirms its strong condemnation of the widespread violations of human rights law by the Syrian authorities and pro-government militias, as well as the human rights abuses and violations of international humanitarian law by non-State armed groups, all committed in the course of the ongoing conflict in the Syrian Arab Republic since March 2011," said the draft resolution.

After the council vote, Vitaly Churkin, the Russian UN ambassador, said at the Security Council that the vetoed draft resolution, if adopted, would "lay the ground for the eventual outside military intervention" in Syria.

Churkin blamed France, which initiated the draft resolution, for trying once again to "create a pretext for armed intervention in the Syrian conflict," while "fully aware of the failure it will meet" in the wake of the council vote.

"It is striking that there is not a single word on the political settlement and the negotiation process among the Syrians " mentioned in a communique at the end of the May 15 meeting on Syria in London, he said.

Citing the case of Libya, Churkin said the referral to the ICC would not help resolve the crisis.

The Security Council has previously referred Libya and Sudan's Darfur to the ICC.

"We call on our Western colleagues to abandon the futile, dead- end policy on Syria," he said.

"We share their emotions caused by the crisis in Syria, which has been dragging on for far too long," Churkin said, referring to the countries sponsoring the draft resolutions.

Russia has already voiced its opposition to the referral of Syria to the ICC. On Wednesday, Churkin called a "public stunt" the planned council vote.

The Geneva communique, issued in June 2012 on the principles of accountability and national reconciliation in Syria, will continue to serve as the basis for "the core efforts" to strive for the political solution to the Syrian crisis, he said. "We are convinced that the justice in Syria will eventually prevail."

"Those guilty of perpetrating grave crimes will be punished," he said. "But in order for this to happen, peace is first needed, first and foremost."

Also speaking at the council after his vote, Wang Min, the deputy Chinese permanent representative to the United Nations, said that China "has serious difficulties" with the draft resolution.

"What is most urgently needed now is to urge the government of Syria and opposition to immediately start a ceasefire and end violence so that the third round of the Geneva negotiations can be resumed to push forward the political process and start the political transition," Wang said.

Little progress has been achieved at the two round of peace talks between the Syrian government and opposition in Geneva in February this year. The international community is striving for the third round of negotiations in order to bring an end to the Syrian conflict, which has reportedly left some 150,000 Syrian people dead over the past more than three years.

"Under the current circumstances, to forcibly refer the situation of Syria to the ICC is neither conducive to building trust among all the parties in Syria, or to the early resumption of the negotiations in Geneva, it will only jeopardize the efforts made by the international community to push forward the political settlement," he said.

"We believe that at a time when there is a serious divergence of views concerning the draft resolution among all sides, the Security Council should continue to hold the consultations, rather than forcibly push for a vote on the draft resolution, so as not to undermine the unity in the council or obstruct the coordination and cooperation in the council in dealing with the questions such as Syria and other major serious issues," he said.

The Thursday vote came just days before international Syria mediator Lakhdar Brahimi is scheduled to step down on May 31.

"It is clear in this case that no side in this tragedy is innocent," said UN Deputy Secretary-General Jan Eliasson, who was addressing the Security Council on behalf of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

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## Pangu

According to this graphics data, the negotiation lasted 20 yrs, beginning in 1994!


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## terranMarine

negotiations lasted for 2 decades and with the problematic EU - Russian relations i bet China got an offer it could not refuse.


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## NACIONALISTA

GCTom said:


> Russia was never NATO's to lose. Russia have its own independent foreign policy and was never in NATO lead adventures against other countries. Also, Russia have very good relationship with China in the last few decades. Regardless if the Ukraine mess happened or not, it was in Russia's own interest to sign this oil deal soon or later anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> India is free to buy oil/gas from Russia too; as they do with weapons. I don't see China have any problem with it.


Russia and China have a regional rivalry though. For now they are both more focused on the immediate threat posed by NATO. But Russia has always pursued a independent policy.


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## kalu_miah

TheTruth said:


> I see. That makes a lot of sense. I know the Bhutanese resent Indian meddling. I can't understand where this arrogance and belligerence comes from in India. I suppose it's because they don't feel respected on the international stage.



I don't know either. I suspect it has to do with the resentment about the fact that they had been subjugated for so long and now finally they have a shot at imperial glory like back in the time of Ashoka. Being a large country means that they can be a nuisance for other neighbors. Being big, they can also easily get away with interfering in other countries affairs and politics. Except Pakistan, where they cannot make much headway because of Pakistan Army and Army intelligence (ISI), they interfered and continue to interfere in all their neighbors internal matters. For example they installed their puppet dictator in Bangladesh.

This sense of entitlement, by virtue of being a big nation, which I believe is a result of their delusional tendency, is probably at the root of their arrogance. Some claim that caste system could have something to do with it. The 2 upper castes (Brahmin and Shatriya/Khatriya) look down upon all other castes and minorities and its possible that they project this sense of superiority over local people to all other nations of the world, perhaps because of the delusional mindset.

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## TheTruth

kalu_miah said:


> I don't know either. I suspect it has to do with the resentment about the fact that they had been subjugated for so long and now finally they have a shot at imperial glory like back in the time of Ashoka. Being a large country means that they can be a nuisance for other neighbors. Being big, they can also easily get away with interfering in other countries affairs and politics. Except Pakistan, where they cannot make much headway because of Pakistan Army and Army intelligence (ISI), they interfered and continue to interfere in all their neighbors internal matters. For example they installed their puppet dictator in Bangladesh.
> 
> This sense of entitlement, by virtue of being a big nation, which I believe is a result of their delusional tendency, is probably at the root of their arrogance. Some claim that caste system could have something to do with it. The 2 upper castes (Brahmin and Shatriya/Khatriya) look down upon all other castes and minorities and its possible that they project this sense of superiority over local people to all other nations of the world, perhaps because of the delusional mindset.



I get the same feeling. India wants to put all of its neighbors in its caste system below even the untouchables.

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## kalu_miah

GCTom said:


> M.A.D. No matter how much some countries wants to hurt Russia they are not stupid enough to invade it because of MAD.
> 
> As long as India can play fair and at the same time these pipelines bring benefit to Pakistan then I don't see any reason why Pakistand would go against it. Russia sells oil/gas to EU Nato members, then there is no reason why Russia can't/won't sell to India as long as India is willing to pay acceptable price to Russia.



MAD is not an issue here, I am not talking about war and conquest. Their hope is that they can persuade and convince Russia to become a part of EU, in the very long term. After all, Russia is majority white European and Christian. There is a question about Russian orthodox religion, but there are already orthodox countries in EU, so that should not be a big stumbling block:




The biggest stumbling block is that Russia once had its own empire. They treasure their sovereignty and independence and would hate to go under EU core countries domination.

About Russia selling oil/gas to all customers is good business, but what I doubt about is Pakistan allowing Indian pipeline over its land. I would have to see it to believe. India's relation with its neighbors will not normalize for the foreseeable future, as a neighbor of India, we know and you can ask other India's neighbors as well and it has little to do with religion, but rather everything to do with Indian sense of entitlement to interfere in neighbor country internal affairs and believing that it is their god given right to meddle in their backyard.


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## NACIONALISTA

kalu_miah said:


> MAD is not an issue here, I am not talking about war and conquest. Their hope is that they can persuade and convince Russia to become a part of EU, in the very long term. After all, Russia is majority white European and Christian. There is a question about Russian orthodox religion, but there are already orthodox countries in EU, so that should not be a big stumbling block:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest stumbling block is that Russia once had its own empire. They treasure their sovereignty and independence and would hate to go under EU core countries domination.
> 
> About Russia selling oil/gas to all customers is good business, but what I doubt about is Pakistan allowing Indian pipeline over its land. I would have to see it to believe. India's relation with its neighbors will not normalize for the foreseeable future, as a neighbor of India, we know and you can ask other India's neighbors as well and it has little to do with religion, but rather everything to do with Indian sense of entitlement to interfere in neighbor country internal affairs and believing that it is their god given right to meddle in their backyard.




Historically Russia has always been viewed as a separate entity from Europe both by Russians and Europeans alike.

This whole new concept of making Russia a part of the E.U is a globalist agenda which no true European or Russian Nationalist would support.


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## kalu_miah

TheTruth said:


> I get the same feeling. India wants to put all of its neighbors in its caste system below even the untouchables.



Indeed, that is exactly what it is. They even openly say it to us Bangladeshi's that we are dalit (untouchable) converts. You should see the abuse they heap on Bangladeshi posters in Bangladeshi subsection. Because of the same reason they treat Pakistan with more deference. A habit that is thousands of years old is hard to get rid of.

You can see tons of videos on this subject of caste discrimination. I don't want to post videos and make Indian posters more angry. I would recommend two key word searches:
"caste discrimination"
"india untouched"

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## xunzi

kalu_miah said:


> Indeed, that is exactly what it is. They even openly say it to us Bangladeshi's that we are dalit (untouchable) converts. You should see the abuse they heap on Bangladeshi posters in Bangladeshi subsection. Because of the same reason they treat Pakistan with more deference. A habit that is thousands of years old is hard to get rid of.
> 
> You can see tons of videos on this subject of caste discrimination. I don't want to post videos and make Indian posters more angry. I would recommend two key word searches:
> "caste discrimination"
> "india untouched"


Can you explain how caste system works in India? From my understanding, the caste system is inherent. So my question is, how do people know which caste people are from or part of, by appearance or registration? Can a dalit pretends to be a high class caste and how do other superior caste find out?

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## cirr

*Russia plans to place GLONASS ground stations in China*

May 22, 15:53 UTC+4 

Contries consider ensuring compatibility of the national navigation systems, similar to the American GPS





*First Glonass ground station (archive)*
© EPA/FERNANDO BIZERRA JR.





Belarus ratifies agreement with Russia on GLONASS cooperation 

MOSCOW, May 22./ITAR-TASS/.*Russia plans to sign an agreement with China this year to place ground stations of global navigation satellite system GLONASS in China and to deploy Chinese navigation satellite stations Beidou in Russia*, deputy head of the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) Sergey Savelyev said on Thursday.

Russia and China see prospects for co-operation between global navigation satellite systems GLONASS and Beidou in the sphere of regional support and the development of chipsets. They consider ensuring compatibility of the national navigation systems, similar to the American GPS.

Roscosmos together with Russian Foreign Ministry also preparing project of updated intergovernmental space agreement with China. Detailed consultations may begin this summer, Savelyev said. 

At the same time the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) did not resume talks with US partners to place Russian ground stations of global navigation satellite system GLONASS in the United States, Sergey Savelyev said.




ERA-GLONASS car terminals go on sale 2015 

“Talks did not start yet, but Roscosmos is prepared for them. I hope that we will receive some response from US partners and I hope that talks will take place. It is certainly early to say about their results now. No official response came from American partners yet,” he said.

*Space cooperation with India*

The Russian Space Agency is interested in setting up a joint venture with India to produce equipment for Russia’s Global Navigation Satellite System, a deputy head of the agency said on Thursday.

“We believe that the most perspective sector of interaction with our Indian colleagues is the cooperation in the sphere of the satellite navigation system,” Sergei Savelyev said in an interview with ITAR-TASS on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Russia’s St. Petersburg.




Russia, China agree to create working group for space cooperation projects 

He said Roscosmos plans to send its delegation to India in June or July for talks with Indian colleagues on Glonass cooperation.

“We (Roscosmos) have recently received an official invitation from the administration of the Indian Space Research Organization to pay a visit to India with the aim of organizing full-scale meetings on the perspective directions of the bilateral cooperation,” Savelyev said adding that the agency is currently working on the preparations for this visit.

The agency’s deputy head said that Roscosmos also plans to reach an agreement with New Delhi this year on the deployment of three Glonass earth-based stations in India and hopes that the upcoming visit would contribute to such plans.

“I hope that after the visit a joint protocol would be signed and definite decisions on cooperation would be made, including on the deployment of the Russian Glonass stations in India,” Savelyev said.

The Glonass network is Russia’s analogue of the US Global Positioning System (GPS) and the system, which was put into operation in 1993, provides real-time positioning and speed data on the surface objects, as well as on the sea and airborne objects.

There are currently 29 Glonass satellites in orbit time with 24 of them active providing global coverage, while four are kept as backups and one undergoes test flights.

ITAR-TASS: Non-political - Russia plans to place GLONASS ground stations in China

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## cirr

*Russia plans to place GLONASS ground stations in China*

May 22, 15:53 UTC+4 

Contries consider ensuring compatibility of the national navigation systems, similar to the American GPS




*First Glonass ground station (archive)*
© EPA/FERNANDO BIZERRA JR.





Belarus ratifies agreement with Russia on GLONASS cooperation 

MOSCOW, May 22./ITAR-TASS/.*Russia plans to sign an agreement with China this year to place ground stations of global navigation satellite system GLONASS in China and to deploy Chinese navigation satellite stations Beidou in Russia*, deputy head of the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) Sergey Savelyev said on Thursday.

Russia and China see prospects for co-operation between global navigation satellite systems GLONASS and Beidou in the sphere of regional support and the development of chipsets. They consider ensuring compatibility of the national navigation systems, similar to the American GPS.

Roscosmos together with Russian Foreign Ministry also preparing project of updated intergovernmental space agreement with China. Detailed consultations may begin this summer, Savelyev said. 

At the same time the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) did not resume talks with US partners to place Russian ground stations of global navigation satellite system GLONASS in the United States, Sergey Savelyev said.




ERA-GLONASS car terminals go on sale 2015 

“Talks did not start yet, but Roscosmos is prepared for them. I hope that we will receive some response from US partners and I hope that talks will take place. It is certainly early to say about their results now. No official response came from American partners yet,” he said.

*Space cooperation with India*

The Russian Space Agency is interested in setting up a joint venture with India to produce equipment for Russia’s Global Navigation Satellite System, a deputy head of the agency said on Thursday.

“We believe that the most perspective sector of interaction with our Indian colleagues is the cooperation in the sphere of the satellite navigation system,” Sergei Savelyev said in an interview with ITAR-TASS on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Russia’s St. Petersburg.




Russia, China agree to create working group for space cooperation projects 

He said Roscosmos plans to send its delegation to India in June or July for talks with Indian colleagues on Glonass cooperation.

“We (Roscosmos) have recently received an official invitation from the administration of the Indian Space Research Organization to pay a visit to India with the aim of organizing full-scale meetings on the perspective directions of the bilateral cooperation,” Savelyev said adding that the agency is currently working on the preparations for this visit.

The agency’s deputy head said that Roscosmos also plans to reach an agreement with New Delhi this year on the deployment of three Glonass earth-based stations in India and hopes that the upcoming visit would contribute to such plans.

“I hope that after the visit a joint protocol would be signed and definite decisions on cooperation would be made, including on the deployment of the Russian Glonass stations in India,” Savelyev said.

The Glonass network is Russia’s analogue of the US Global Positioning System (GPS) and the system, which was put into operation in 1993, provides real-time positioning and speed data on the surface objects, as well as on the sea and airborne objects.

There are currently 29 Glonass satellites in orbit time with 24 of them active providing global coverage, while four are kept as backups and one undergoes test flights.

ITAR-TASS: Non-political - Russia plans to place GLONASS ground stations in China


----------



## cirr

*Russia plans to place GLONASS ground stations in China*

May 22, 15:53 UTC+4 

Contries consider ensuring compatibility of the national navigation systems, similar to the American GPS




*First Glonass ground station (archive)*
© EPA/FERNANDO BIZERRA JR.





Belarus ratifies agreement with Russia on GLONASS cooperation 

MOSCOW, May 22./ITAR-TASS/.*Russia plans to sign an agreement with China this year to place ground stations of global navigation satellite system GLONASS in China and to deploy Chinese navigation satellite stations Beidou in Russia*, deputy head of the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) Sergey Savelyev said on Thursday.

Russia and China see prospects for co-operation between global navigation satellite systems GLONASS and Beidou in the sphere of regional support and the development of chipsets. They consider ensuring compatibility of the national navigation systems, similar to the American GPS.

Roscosmos together with Russian Foreign Ministry also preparing project of updated intergovernmental space agreement with China. Detailed consultations may begin this summer, Savelyev said. 

At the same time the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) did not resume talks with US partners to place Russian ground stations of global navigation satellite system GLONASS in the United States, Sergey Savelyev said.




ERA-GLONASS car terminals go on sale 2015 

“Talks did not start yet, but Roscosmos is prepared for them. I hope that we will receive some response from US partners and I hope that talks will take place. It is certainly early to say about their results now. No official response came from American partners yet,” he said.

*Space cooperation with India*

The Russian Space Agency is interested in setting up a joint venture with India to produce equipment for Russia’s Global Navigation Satellite System, a deputy head of the agency said on Thursday.

“We believe that the most perspective sector of interaction with our Indian colleagues is the cooperation in the sphere of the satellite navigation system,” Sergei Savelyev said in an interview with ITAR-TASS on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Russia’s St. Petersburg.




Russia, China agree to create working group for space cooperation projects 

He said Roscosmos plans to send its delegation to India in June or July for talks with Indian colleagues on Glonass cooperation.

“We (Roscosmos) have recently received an official invitation from the administration of the Indian Space Research Organization to pay a visit to India with the aim of organizing full-scale meetings on the perspective directions of the bilateral cooperation,” Savelyev said adding that the agency is currently working on the preparations for this visit.

The agency’s deputy head said that Roscosmos also plans to reach an agreement with New Delhi this year on the deployment of three Glonass earth-based stations in India and hopes that the upcoming visit would contribute to such plans.

“I hope that after the visit a joint protocol would be signed and definite decisions on cooperation would be made, including on the deployment of the Russian Glonass stations in India,” Savelyev said.

The Glonass network is Russia’s analogue of the US Global Positioning System (GPS) and the system, which was put into operation in 1993, provides real-time positioning and speed data on the surface objects, as well as on the sea and airborne objects.

There are currently 29 Glonass satellites in orbit time with 24 of them active providing global coverage, while four are kept as backups and one undergoes test flights.

ITAR-TASS: Non-political - Russia plans to place GLONASS ground stations in China

*China's Beidou navigation system makes breakthrough*

Editor: _Zhang Dan _丨Xinhua

05-09-2014 14:41 BJT

TIANJIN, May 9 (Xinhua) -- China's independently-developed Beidou differential navigation satellite system has achieved a positioning accuracy within one meter, a major breakthrough in marine application, local authorities said Friday.

The Beidou Radio Beacon-Differential Beidou Navigation Satellite System (RBN-DBDS) is an augmentation system that provides improved positioning accuracy of the GPS-like Beidou Navigation Satellite System by broadcasting differential corrections to Beidou receivers in the medium frequency radio beacon band (285-325 khz), said Wang Cheng, a senior engineer of the Beihai Navigation Safety Administration under the Ministry of Transport, the developer of the system.

The RBN-DBDS system has passed an evaluation after more than 130 days of test trials in Tianjin Municipality. It can be applied in sailing, marine exploration and rescue, and maritime charting and monitoring.

After the system's completion, customers can receive free positioning services from Beidou and GPS with a dual-mode receiver.

China's Beidou navigation system makes breakthrough - CCTV News - CCTV.com English

UPDATED: May 22, 2014 

*China's BeiDou System Standard Ratified by IMO*


The International Maritime Organization has ratified the performance standard of a receiver of the shipborne BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS), the Ministry of Transport revealed Wednesday.

This is the first BDS to be standard approved by an international organization. It marks the first step for China's home-grown system in its quest to go global, according to the ministry.

The move is key to the application of BDS in the international maritime field and its industrial development, the ministry said.

The first satellite for the BDS plan was launched in 2000. China wants to expand the regional navigation system to global coverage by around 2020.

Also on Wednesday, BDS spokesman Ran Chengqi said at a symposium in Nanjing that China has started the last phase of the BDS development plan, and is expanding the system's market share at home.

As of the end of March, the sale of BDS/GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System) modules exceeded two million, Ran said.

Moreover, he said that over 40 million mobile phones with BeiDou positioning function have been put into market, and vehicle-mounted BDS navigators designed for more than 200 automobile types have been on sale.

(Xinhua News Agency May 21, 2014)


China's Beidou navigation system makes breakthrough - CCTV News - CCTV.com English

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## xunzi

Russia has a lot of experience with space. We should cooperate on space project with Russia, especially that NASA discriminates us.

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## cirr

*China Plans to Complete BeiDou Ahead of Schedule*

Inside GNSS‎ - 1 day ago

*China's BeiDou* will accelerate the pace of its development, even as the world's other three GNSS systems are experiencing delays and ...

China Plans to Complete BeiDou Ahead of Schedule | Inside GNSS

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## Reashot Xigwin

xunzi said:


> Can you explain how caste system works in India? From my understanding, the caste system is inherent. So my question is, how do people know which caste people are from or part of, by appearance or registration? Can a dalit pretends to be a high class caste and how do other superior caste find out?



The Whiter you are the higher your status in the caste system & the darker you are.... You get the idea. Kinda like in real life.





The Indian can thank the Aryans for that.

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## TaiShang

LOL @ the US...

The specter haunting Washington 

Zhao Jinglun






*The specter of the China-Russia partnership is haunting the United States, which has committed a cardinal diplomatic sin of simultaneously taking on both great powers.*

Chinese President Xi Jinping and the visiting Russian President Vladimir Putin, in a joint statement, agreed to elevate their broad strategic cooperative partnership to a new higher stage, as they plan to work closer together in practically every field.

Most notable is the signing of a decade-long gas deal by which Gazprom will supply China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) with 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas every year for thirty years, beginning no later than the end of 2018. The deal is reportedly worth US$400 billion, *and it may be paid not in petrodollars but in Chinese yuan.* Some analysts even talked about the yuan becoming a new international reserve currency.

The conclusion of the gas deal will seal the "strategic energy alliance" between the two countries. It signifies Moscow's strategic shift to the Asian market as Europe seeks to cut reliance on Russian energy following the Ukraine crisis.

*The two presidents personally attended the opening of the joint naval exercise off Shanghai in the sensitive East China Sea. It was unusual for both heads of state to personally open the drill. And the drill, which will last until the 26th, is of an unprecedented scale with 14 surface ships participating, including six from Russia's Pacific fleet led by its flagship Slava class guided missile cruiser, the Varyag. The rest are from three Chinese fleets: the state of the art 052C guided missile destroyer the Zhengzhou, two submarines and nine fixed-wing aircraft.*

The exercise is not targeted at any third country. But Western observers say it sends a message to Japan and its Big Brother, the United States.

The Western press also stresses the military side of the China-Russia partnership, mentioning *Russia's ultra-sophisticated S-500 air defense anti-missile system coming on line in 2018. China would like to have a version of it. And China will acquire dozens of Su-35 jet fighters. China and Russia will work together to develop a wide-body air liner.*

The two partners will increase their two-way trade to US$100 billion by 2015 and US$200 billion by 2020.

In April, when President Xi visited Duisburg on the Rhine, he proposed the building of a new "economic Silk Road" between China and Europe on the basis of the Chongqing-Xinjiang-Europe railway, which is already running from China to Kazakhstan. That will herald the birth of what is sometimes called a "Eurasian Century".

*Both leaders attended the fourth Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) which adopted a "Shanghai Declaration." The main points of the declaration are as follows: No country should seek its own security at the expense of the security of other countries; no violation of other countries' territorial integrity and political independence by use of force or threat of force; no country should violate the UN Charter; there should be settlement of disputes by peaceful means; no interference in other country's internal affairs and no support for any action designed to subvert a legitimate government (regime change).*

Washington complained that the Asian security architecture excludes the United States. But, as China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi explained: *the security of Asia has to be managed by Asian countries themselves.*


The author is a columnist with China.org.cn. For more information please visit: Opinion - China.org.cn

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## SrNair

That was historic.First clear example of vanishing US hegemony from this world .



xunzi said:


> Can you explain how caste system works in India? From my understanding, the caste system is inherent. So my question is, how do people know which caste people are from or part of, by appearance or registration? Can a dalit pretends to be a high class caste and how do other superior caste find out?



Caste system is an old cliche.Except some NI South or West dont give much value to this caste system now.Even if they exist it is not that big and dont create any problems in our society.



Reashot Xigwin said:


> The Whiter you are the higher your status in the caste system & the darker you are.... You get the idea. Kinda like in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Indian can thank the Aryans for that.



What ??? 
You proved your BS claim buy this picture.The one that ride this chariot is considered as a God by Hindus ,Lord Krishna a low caste Yadavs.
Dont derail this topic
Stay on topic.


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## TaiShang

sreekumar said:


> That was historic.First clear example of vanishing US hegemony from this world .



Interestingly, though, still no clear news of the settlement currency for the natural gas deal. That, in my view, is as important as the deal itself. Especially if we are going to move toward the point that you mention, de-Dollarization has to accelerate.

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## SrNair

TaiShang said:


> Interestingly, though, still no clear news of the settlement currency for the natural gas deal. That, in my view, is as important as the deal itself. Especially if we are going to move toward the point that you mention, de-Dollarization has to accelerate.



So what will be the currency? I thought deal is based on Yuan or Ruble.
If they use USD then US dont have much problem from this deal.



bolo said:


> Indians are not that smart to pull off something like that . I only agree they are pigs, but the tiger will eat them.



Your post is reported for off topic.


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## TaiShang

sreekumar said:


> So what will be the currency? I thought deal is based on Yuan or Ruble.
> If they use USD then US dont have much problem from this deal.



No official information on this, to my knowledge. But I came across several Op-Eds, suggesting the payment currency would be RMB.

I agree, if that does not happen, the US would probably be very little bothered. Maybe only indirectly; considering US itself plans to export natural gas, the bilateral deal would maybe drive gas prices down since China would buy less from international market.

On the other, I do not really see the Chinese government to be willing to make a half-a-trillion dollar payment (overtime) in USD.

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## eazzy

China to Pay for Russian Gas in US Dollars – Russian Energy Minister | Russia | RIA Novosti

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## 500

xudeen said:


> Channel News Asia in Singapore reported that China could pay 25 billion upfront to Russia in this deal. Also, the transaction will be in Chinese Yuan.
> 
> *ITAR-TASS News Agency graphics*


400 bln for 30 years
38 bln cu. m anually

*285 $ per 1000 m3*






Gas prices fore various Europe countries. 413 $ per 1000 is average price.

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## TaiShang

eazzy said:


> China to Pay for Russian Gas in US Dollars – Russian Energy Minister | Russia | RIA Novosti



The title and the content of the news do not really match.

Energy Minister does not state it clearly. In fact he says they are working on creating an alternative payment mechanism.

I would like to take news from Russia (especially quoted from some powerful CEOs) with a truckload of salt. 

Anyways, it is an extended payment, it may start with the USD and when the mechanism is set up, continue with RMB. Let's just hope that.

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## Informant

I think this pipeline would be extended to india. What do you guys think?


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## Audio

Mao1949 said:


> Can you provide proof of your 25% claim?



Gazprom Threatens to Disrupt Gas Supplies to Europe

Gazprom Said Likely to Keep Dividend Ratio Amid Ukraine Woes - Bloomberg


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## kalu_miah

bolo said:


> Indians are not that smart to pull off something like that . I only agree they are pigs, but the tiger will eat them.



You got the point of the Chinese proverb, problem is everyone can see that except for Indians themselves.


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## kalu_miah

xunzi said:


> Can you explain how caste system works in India? From my understanding, the caste system is inherent. So my question is, how do people know which caste people are from or part of, by appearance or registration? Can a dalit pretends to be a high class caste and how do other superior caste find out?



Off topic, so I will just provide a link:
Hinduism: A Portrait of Polytheism







I think people in local areas already know who is from which caste, in city or other places, I think they look at appearance and name. To tell the truth Indians are best able to answer these questions, I would recommend opening a thread in Central and South Asia section.

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## ChineseTiger1986

kalu_miah said:


> MAD is not an issue here, I am not talking about war and conquest. Their hope is that they can persuade and convince Russia to become a part of EU, in the very long term. After all, Russia is majority white European and Christian. There is a question about Russian orthodox religion, but there are already orthodox countries in EU, so that should not be a big stumbling block:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest stumbling block is that Russia once had its own empire. They treasure their sovereignty and independence and would hate to go under EU core countries domination.
> 
> About Russia selling oil/gas to all customers is good business, but what I doubt about is Pakistan allowing Indian pipeline over its land. I would have to see it to believe. India's relation with its neighbors will not normalize for the foreseeable future, as a neighbor of India, we know and you can ask other India's neighbors as well and it has little to do with religion, but rather everything to do with Indian sense of entitlement to interfere in neighbor country internal affairs and believing that it is their god given right to meddle in their backyard.



Russia to integrate with the West means "Russia to displace the Anglo Empire and to rule over the West", not vice versa.

There is no way that Russia will allow themselves to be ruled by the West.

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## kalu_miah

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia to integrate with the West means "Russia to displace the Anglo Empire and to rule over the West", not vice versa.
> 
> There is no way that Russia will allow themselves to be ruled by the West.



That is what I am saying also, since the memory of long history of Russian empire is still too strong, one incarnation of which was Soviet Union that was intact till 1991, so they would hate to be dominated by the West in the foreseeable future.

Just for arguments sake, in case they did join EU in the very far future, then they would not be able to dominate, since the West collectively have about 800 million people (North America, EU and ANZ), whereas Russia has only about 144 million people.

If North East Asia (specially China) can lead an Asian integration, then a developed Asia with 4.3 billion (minus India is about 3 billion), have a much better chance of integrating Russia with Asia, despite racial differences. The Ukraine incident will reverberate for 2-3 decades and Asia will rise a lot in these decades, which may permanently orient Russia towards East. After all the origin of Russian empire was from one of the Mongol khanate, Golden Horde:
The Effects of the Mongol Empire on Russia
"As the evidence stands, the effects of the Mongol invasion were many, spread across the political, social, and religious facets of Russia. While some of those effects, such as the growth of the Orthodox Church generally had a relatively positive effect on the lands of the Rus, other results, such as the loss of the _veche_ system and centralization of power assisted in halting the spread of traditional democracy and self-government for the various principalities. From the influences on the language and the form of government, the very impacts of the Mongol invasion are still evident today. Perhaps given the chance to experience the Renaissance, as did other western European cultures, the political, religious, and social thought of Russia would greatly differ from that of the reality of today. *The Russians, through the control of the Mongols who had adopted many ideas of government and economics from the Chinese, became perhaps a more Asiatic nation in terms of government, while the deep Christian roots of the Russians established and helped maintain a link with Europe. It was the Mongol invasion which, perhaps more than any other historical event, helped to determine the course of development that Russian culture, political geography, history, and national identity would take.*"

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## ChineseTiger1986

kalu_miah said:


> That is what I am saying also, since the memory of long history of Russian empire is still too strong, one incarnation of which was Soviet Union that was intact till 1991, so they would hate to be dominated by the West in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Just for arguments sake, in case they did join EU in the very far future, then they would not be able to dominate, since the West collectively have about 800 million people (North America, EU and ANZ), whereas Russia has only about 144 million people.
> 
> If North East Asia (specially China) can lead an Asian integration, then a developed Asia with 4.3 billion (minus India is about 3 billion), have a much better chance of integrating Russia with Asia, despite racial differences. The Ukraine incident will reverberate for 2-3 decades and Asia will rise a lot in these decades, which may permanently orient Russia towards East. After all the origin of Russian empire was from one of the Mongol khanate, Golden Horde:
> The Effects of the Mongol Empire on Russia
> "As the evidence stands, the effects of the Mongol invasion were many, spread across the political, social, and religious facets of Russia. While some of those effects, such as the growth of the Orthodox Church generally had a relatively positive effect on the lands of the Rus, other results, such as the loss of the _veche_ system and centralization of power assisted in halting the spread of traditional democracy and self-government for the various principalities. From the influences on the language and the form of government, the very impacts of the Mongol invasion are still evident today. Perhaps given the chance to experience the Renaissance, as did other western European cultures, the political, religious, and social thought of Russia would greatly differ from that of the reality of today. *The Russians, through the control of the Mongols who had adopted many ideas of government and economics from the Chinese, became perhaps a more Asiatic nation in terms of government, while the deep Christian roots of the Russians established and helped maintain a link with Europe. It was the Mongol invasion which, perhaps more than any other historical event, helped to determine the course of development that Russian culture, political geography, history, and national identity would take.*"



Russia's rebellious mindset against the West can be dated back the era of the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire has tried many times, but never successfully conquered the Scythian tribes who lived in the Eastern Europe.

I don't think it is just the Christianity, but in the Russian gene, they always don't like to be dominated by anyone else. From the ancient Scythia to the modern Russia, this mindset has never been changed.

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## Nan Yang

*The specter of the China-Russia partnership is haunting the United States, which has committed a cardinal diplomatic sin of simultaneously taking on both great powers.*


Ancient Chinese proverb.....If you chase two rabbits, both will escape.

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## Mao1949

*Beijing, Moscow Align Over Common Desire to Create 'Multipolar' World*

BEIJING—The year after President Richard Nixon's historic 1972 "opening to China," the Philadelphia Orchestra arrived in Beijing in his footsteps.

*Nixon had played the China card, shifting the balance against the Soviet Union in the Cold War. The first American orchestra to visit Communist-ruled China, along with "ping-pong diplomacy"—exchanges of table tennis players—began the people-to-people contacts that underpinned the strategic goals of the new U.S.-China relationship.*

The Philadelphia Orchestra is back. This week it is visiting Changsha and Shenzhen after playing to packed houses in Beijing, a symbol of the flourishing ties between two countries whose destinies are now deeply entwined through music and sport as well as massive volumes of trade and investment, and educational exchanges.

*Yet, at the same time, the geopolitical foundations of the relationship forged during the Nixon era are crumbling.*

*This turn of history was dramatically illustrated last Wednesday when, as the Philadelphia Orchestra was preparing for its opening night at the National Center for the Performing Arts in Beijing, Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, were sealing a $400 billion contract in Shanghai to supply Russian gas.*

*It was one of the largest commercial agreements of all time. But as they threw back thimble-sized glasses of white liquor to celebrate their outsized deal, it was clear that the two leaders were playing a strategic card against America, too.*

*Both leaders are powerful and charismatic. Both bridle at the U.S.-dominated global order, and profess a desire to create a "multipolar" world. Mr. Putin, having been spurned by the West, is looking east to China. Mr. Xi is only too happy to receive his advances.*

To be sure, their collaboration has limits. Behind displays of Sino-Russian solidarity lurks a deep mutual suspicion.

*Yet the scene in Shanghai underscored a profound shift in China's foreign policy as it challenges the legacy of the Cold War-era.*

*The China that Nixon visited under Mao Zedong was content for America to dominate in Asia, a region it had lorded over for several millenniums. It had little choice. Back then, China was poor and weak. And it was desperate for the benefits that America had to offer, from capital and technology to management know-how.*

*Now China is rich—by some measures it has already overtaken America as the world's largest economy. And, at long last, it's strong enough to dispute America's primacy in Asia.*

*That's the background to a recent string of assertive Chinese moves in Asia, from setting up an Air Defense Identification Zone in November last year over the East China Sea, including islands it disputes with Japan, to parking an oil rig in disputed waters off Vietnam last month.*

*China is bent on challenging the Cold War architecture that America built in Asia to assure its hegemony—one that Mao's China reluctantly accepted in return for Nixon's visit that led to diplomatic relations.*

*It is doing this in several ways: By investing in a powerful military that's now capable of thwarting U.S. armed forces in Asia to some extent; by seeking to undermine the network of U.S. alliances in the region, most crucially the one with Japan, through aggressive tactics that sow doubts about whether America really is ready to risk war to stand up for its friends; and by forging new alignments of its own, including one with Mr. Putin's Russia.*

But the big question is this: now that the strategic basis of the U.S.-China relationship has altered so fundamentally, what will happen to the rest of it? In other words, how safe are the people-to-people ties?

The historian Niall Ferguson coined the term "Chimerica" to express the symbiotic relationship between the two powers. *China is now reckoned to be a $300 billion market for U.S. companies, measured by U.S. exports and sales in the country, according to a report this year by the U.S. Congressional Research Service*. China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt. By far the biggest group of foreign students in the U.S. is from China—235,597 last year, more than a quarter of the total.

China's desire for U.S. technology is undiminished. Nor can it continue its global rise without America's open markets.

*Yet nationalism is a powerful force. And it can't be taken for granted that people-to-people ties are strong enough, on their own, to hold the relationship together.*

*China's furious reaction last week to the indictment by the U.S. Justice Department of five Chinese military officers, alleging they hacked U.S. companies' computers to steal trade secrets, is an example of how quickly the commercial relationship can go awry now that the strategic relationship has become so unmoored and mutual trust is failing.*

*Already, friction over cybersecurity has hurt sales for companies like Cisco Systems Inc. and International Business Machines Corp.*

Nixon sent the Philadelphia Orchestra to Beijing for a good reason. Despite the strains of Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6, drifting into the Beijing night air last Thursday, people-to-people ties now rest on a fragile foundation.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Russia and China have reached an agreement to create a joint credit rating agency and are working on a series of measures to make trade easier, Russia's finance minister said Tuesday, in a sign of growing ties between the neighbors.

Speaking during a trip to China, Anton Siluanov told journalists that the new rating agency would be modeled on existing rating agencies.

"We would like [the agency's] ratings to be apolitical," Siluanov said in comments sent by the ministry's press service.

The plan to create an agency in conjunction with China comes at time when Russia has shown signs of dissatisfaction with the three western agencies — Standard & Poor's, Moody's and Fitch, which dominate the ratings market.

S&P cut Russia's sovereign rating to a notch above junk in late April, weeks after Moscow annexed Ukraine's Crimea peninsula.

Russian officials criticized what they regarded as a "politically motivated" downgrade — a claim that S&P denied.

Russia's desire for an alternative has led to discussion about creating a national rating agency, but some analysts have questioned whether such a body would have credibility.

The plan to create a new agency in conjunction with China appears aimed at gradually building a credible alternative to the big three ratings agencies, which came under fire for failing to anticipate the financial crisis that began in 2007.

Beijing-based rating firm Dagong said last year it hoped to cash in on that criticism and take 5 to 10 percent of the European ratings market by 2017.

"In its first phase, the agency will evaluate Russian-Chinese investment projects with the goal to attract a series of Asian countries, and gradually, based on progress and reputation, we believe that it could reach a level when its opinions will attract other countries," Siluanov said.

No details were given on when the agency would begin work.

After being shunned by the West for its involvement in the Ukrainian crisis, Russia has moved swiftly to improve business relations with China and other countries from the BRICS block that also includes India, Brazil and South Africa.

Late last month, Russia's state-run Gazprom signed a landmark 30-year deal, worth more than $400 billion, to supply gas to China.

While most Western countries condemned President Vladimir Putin for using Ukraine's vulnerable political situation and taking away the Crimean Black Sea peninsula, BRICS countries have broadly refrained from criticism.

Without providing details, Siluanov also said that his talks with Chinese officials included the possibility of preferential taxes for Chinese companies investing in Russia, currency swaps and trade settlement in national currencies.

Answering a question about possible joint management of gold and foreign currency reserves with China, Siluanov said "the issue of lending and monetary policy" will be a part of his talks with China's Central Bank officials.

Russia, China to Create Rating Agency Providing 'Apolitical' Ratings | Business | The Moscow Times

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## Götterdämmerung

This is a great move. Right after the start of the Financial Crisis in 2008 there were many voices in the EU t create our own rating agency as well. These robber US rating agencies have caused the loss of trillions € of savings of ordinary EU citizens and our spineless politicians have been mute about our own rating agency shortly after it was mentioned.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Götterdämmerung said:


> This is a great move. Right after the start of the Financial Crisis in 2008 there were many voices in the EU t create our own rating agency as well. These robber US rating agencies have caused the loss of trillions € of savings of ordinary EU citizens and our spineless politicians have been mute about our own rating agency shortly after it was mentioned.



Russia will serve as a bridge for the Eurasia's economic integration, and we can surely trade our currencies with each other.

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## Jlaw

Götterdämmerung said:


> This is a great move. Right after the start of the Financial Crisis in 2008 there were many voices in the EU t create our own rating agency as well. These robber US rating agencies have caused the loss of trillions € of savings of ordinary EU citizens and our spineless politicians have been mute about our own rating agency shortly after it was mentioned.


 
If you invest in the stock market, you are just gambling and 90% of regular folks lose in the market.


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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia will serve as a bridge for the Eurasia's economic integration, and we can surely trade our currencies with each other.



China and Russia are natural partners to trade currencies. China has the consumer goods and Russia has natural resources.

Brazil is also suitable for currency swap with China for same reason.

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## Götterdämmerung

Jlaw said:


> If you invest in the stock market, you are just gambling and 90% of regular folks lose in the market.



It's our politicians that are gambling away our economy, sovereignty and our health. Right now they are negotiating the TTIP behind closed doors, not even the MoEP get any substantial information about the ongoing negotiations, much less the ordinary citizens of the EU. So much for our great democracy.

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## Raphael

Good effort, but I feel like people have simply stopped trusting credit rating agencies. The big Western agencies continue to give the US an 'AAA' rating, despite the US having threatened, on multiple occasions, to default on their debt. It's all become a complete farce.

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## Jlaw

Raphael said:


> Good effort, but I feel like people have simply stopped trusting credit rating agencies. The big Western agencies continue to give the US an 'AAA' rating, despite the US having threatened, on multiple occasions, to default on their debt. It's all become a complete farce.


 
Ordinary people do not care but corpations continue to use these "sources". Most unfortunate.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Götterdämmerung said:


> It's our politicians that are gambling away our economy, sovereignty and our health. Right now they are negotiating the TTIP behind closed doors, not even the MoEP get any substantial information about the ongoing negotiations, much less the ordinary citizens of the EU. So much for our great democracy.



Compared to the US politicians, i found that most German politicians are much more conservative and prudent, and also they believe in more tangible growth than the intangible growth.


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## Götterdämmerung

Raphael said:


> Good effort, but I feel like people have simply stopped trusting credit rating agencies. The big Western agencies continue to give the US an 'AAA' rating, despite the US having threatened, on multiple occasions, to default on their debt. It's all become a complete farce.



Stop calling them Western agencies, they are in toto US agencies, the EU, too, was victim of their frauds.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Compared to the US politicians, i found that most German politicians are much more conservative and prudent, and also they believe in more tangible growth than the intangible growth.



Unfortunately, many members of the established parties, e.g. CDU, SPD, FDP and the Greens are also members of the dozens of Transatlantic Clubs. They are selling us out for personal gains.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Good. 

Especially since we hold the majority of the world's currency reserves, at $4 trillion.

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## Aepsilons

(Reuters) - For once, China looks to have done Japan a favour.

In clinching a $400 billion deal last month to buy Russian gas, China may end up helping out its old political and economic rival in a way that matters hugely for Japan - energy security.

The China-Russia agreement, the biggest gas deal ever, unlocks new gas supplies and could bring down gas prices across Asia, a development that would pay the biggest dividends for Japan, the world's top buyer of liquefied natural gas.

Other big Asian gas buyers such as South Korea and Taiwan could also benefit.

The deal, signed on May 21, cemented a dramatic shift in energy flows from the West to the East. Gas will be transported to China via a new pipeline linking Siberian gas fields from 2018, building up gradually to 38 billion cubic metres a year.

China has massive gas needs, but access to more of the fuel is also vital for Japan since its utilities pay the world's highest prices. Japan buys about a third of global LNG shipments and spent a record 7.06 trillion yen ($70 billion) last year, mostly for electricity generation to replace idled nuclear reactors following the Fukushima disaster in 2011.

There are hopes that piping Russian gas to China will create a new price benchmark that could cut prices for Asian LNG buyers as well as providing new gas sources.

"This will surely put downward pressure on gas prices and some say it is the beginning of the end of the Asia premium," Masumi Kimura, a researcher at Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corp (JOGMEC), said in a note, referring to the higher price paid for gas in Asia compared to other parts of the world.

Russia's Gazprom declined to confirm what price the deal with China was struck, but industry sources say it translates to about $10-$10.50 per million British thermal units, an international pricing standard, well below the current level of around $13 for spot Asian cargoes.

A source at one of the biggest Japanese buyers of gas shipped in liquid form said that the new Russian gas should absorb some Chinese pressure on LNG demand in Asia.

Others were cautious, however, over the potential impact.

"The Russian gas will be coming into the northeast of China, into a market that was never going to be served by LNG in the first place," said Gavin Thompson, head of Asia-Pacific gas and power at consultancy Wood Mackenzie.

RUSSIAN ENERGY

Takashi Hayasaki, general manager of the Japan Petroleum Development Association, said the China-Russia pipeline would "also spur further development of gas fields in Siberia that could be a source of LNG for Japan.".

Japan's Russian purchases have grown with oil and gas flowing from Sakhalin island to the north of Japan since 2009 and oil via the East Siberian Pacific Ocean extension from 2012.

Imports of Russian LNG rose 3.1 percent last year to 8.57 million tonnes, or 9.8 percent of total imports. The ratio is up from 4.3 percent in 2009 when Japan started Russian gas imports.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe met Russian President Vladimir Putin five times in the last 18 months, more than any other leader. Amid a flurry of agreements there was talk that closer energy ties could come with the resolution of an island dispute dating from the end of World War II.

But the diplomatic efforts to take a bigger role in gas projects appear to have fizzled out since the Ukraine crisis, which has led to sanctions on Moscow that Tokyo has supported.

Gazprom and Royal Dutch Shell operate Russia's only LNG plant on Sakhalin, with Japan's Mitsuibishi Corp and Mitsui & Co as junior partners.

HOLDING OFF LONG-TERM CONTRACTS

The Chinese deal has also revived talk of a pipeline from Russia to Japan. A group of 33 ruling party lawmakers plans to lobby Abe to sign a deal on a gas link with Putin at an estimated cost to build of about $6 billion compared with more than $40 billion for the Chinese pipeline.

But Daiske Harada, an economist with JOGMEC focusing on Russia, said Rosneft and Gazprom were more interested in pushing exports by LNG to the Pacific market, not by pipeline.

Gazpom plans to build a second plant in Vladivostok by 2018, with a capacity of 10 and 15 million tonnes of LNG per year, and also a spur to the Chinese pipeline to bring gas to Vladivostok.

Rosneft and ExxonMobil also plan an LNG plant on Sakhalin to produce 5 million tonnes a year from 2018.

Along with Russian supplies, Japan could also benefit with the United States due to start shipping shale gas from as early as 2015. Other potential sources include West Africa and Canada.

And faced with potential new supplies, Japanese buyers are holding off from signing long-term LNG contracts starting from around 2017 until there is more clarity on nuclear power, said a source in the natural gas division of a Japanese trading firm.





*Reference: Reuters*


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## TaiShang

China, Russia present new joint draft to prevent outer space war 

*China and Russia have jointly submitted an updated draft international treaty on banning the deployment of weapons in outer space to a UN-sponsored disarmament conference.
The US and Israel have repeatedly voted against UN resolutions on the prevention of an arms race in outer space.*

The updated draft Treaty on the Prevention of the Placement of Weapons in Outer Space, the Threat or Use of Force Against Outer Space Objects, was presented at a plenary session of the Conference on Disarmament, the world’s sole multilateral forum for disarmament negotiations.

*The new draft treaty prepared by Russia and China is a revised version of the one the two allies had presented earlier, including definition and scope of the treaty, organizations as well as mechanisms to solve disputes, said Wu Haitao, China’s ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary for disarmament affairs.*

*The Treaty on Prevention of the Placement of Weapons in Outer Space and of the Threat or Use of Force Against Outer Space Objects (PPWT) was first proposed by China and Russia in February 2008 as an international legally binding treaty that would outlaw the weaponization of space.*

Wu said this new draft treaty is aimed at advancing the Conference on Disarmament toward negotiations for signing an international legal document.

Space assets like satellites are at increasing threat of being disabled from hostile countries as risk of cyber-warfare grows.

Beijing has warned of the growing risks of the weaponization of outer space with the rapid development of space technology, which *the Chinese Ambassador said will “hinder the peaceful use of outer space, break global strategic balance and stability and hamper nuclear disarmament”.*

The existing legislation on outer space cannot prevent the use or the threat of force against outer space assets, Wu said.

Telecommunications, GPS navigation systems, power etc could be easily switched off with the disabling of satellites in the backdrop of a militarized outer space.

*China has stressed during the UN conference on the urgent need to sign a new international legal document to prevent the weaponization of outer space.*

China and Russia are willing to include suggestions and ideas from other parties and continue to improve the draft treat in order to lay a foundation for the start of practical negotiations at the Conference on Disarmament, Wu said.

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## TaiShang

*Checkers Versus Chess & Weiqi*

*For quite some time, we have been predicting that the Russians and Chinese will, at some point, bring an end to the petrodollar system that has virtually guaranteed the US the position of having its currency be the world's default currency. 

This position has allowed the US, in recent decades, to go on a borrowing and currency-printing spree, the likes of which the world has never seen.*

*First, a Little History*

It's important that we back up a bit here to have a look at how this came about in the first instance.

_*In 1971, the US government, under Richard Nixon, took the US off the gold standard. This meant that, from that point on, the dollar was backed by nothing. However, as long as the dollar was accepted as legitimate currency (even though it was now mere paper), not only could the game continue as before, but the US would then be free to print as much "currency" as it wished. It would also be free to borrow as much as it wished, thereby building as large an economic house of cards as it wished.*_

Of course, the foolhardiness of this decision would not be immediately clear to all and sundry. It would take some time before the chickens would come home to roost.

*Enter the Petrodollar*

*Back in 1971, it was necessary to assure that the dollar would retain its position in world trade as the world's premiere currency, in spite of the fact that it was no longer backed by anything. The US reached an agreement with Saudi Arabia that, in trade for arms and protection, the Saudis would denominate all future oil sales, worldwide, in dollars. The other OPEC countries fell into line, and the "petrodollar" was assured.*

*Returning to the present, we have stated for some time that the methods by which the US, the Russians, and the Chinese have been playing the game have been very different. The Chinese, for over 4000 years, have played the game of wéiqí, and the wéiqí philosophy is a primary part of Chinese philosophy. The idea is to distract your opponent whilst you subtly surround him. Once he is enclosed, with no support from outside, it's game over.*

*By contrast, the Russians are perennial chess players. Chess, played correctly, involves the concept of imagining each move that your opponent may possibly make. For each possible move, you imagine each possible move you could make and how your opponent might retaliate. You then select your best move. A good chess player is one who has learned to imagine several moves in advance. Therefore, once your opponent makes his move, you are never taken off-guard. You are prepared for anything he does.

Mister Putin is a consummate chess player, and since he has returned to office, each time the US has made a move, he has been ready. Each of his moves has not only countered the US, but trumped them. At every step that the US gets tough on Russia, Russia immediately says, in effect, "Okay, remember, you brought this on yourselves." Russia then makes a move that puts the US in a far worse position than it was before.*

*The amazing fact here is that the US method recognizes neither wéiqí nor chess. They appear to be playing checkers. The US has, since World War II, used the approach of "The Yanks are Comin'." The US has been the biggest boy in the schoolyard and has, through a combination of bluster and bullying, been able to intimidate the world and, as a result, get virtually everything it wanted for a very long time. Conventional diplomacy has taken a back seat with the US, and, particularly since the administration of George Bush, the US has very much ramped up its "biggest boy in the schoolyard" approach, much to the irritation of the rest of world.*

*Here Come Those Chickens*

*But now, the US is broke, and its stature as the biggest boy has begun to wane. The other kids in the schoolyard are playing smart, whilst the US is still playing tough…and it's no longer working.*

*Claiming that Russia was overstepping its power in the Ukraine (when, in fact, it was the US that was guilty of this move), the US applied economic sanctions to Russia. The US media treated this as a major blow to Russia, from which the Russkies had better back off if they knew what was good for them.

But, in fact, this served as an open invitation for Russia to retaliate. Since the very first thrust by the US, each parry and thrust by the Russians has been both effective and well planned. (It should be borne in mind that the latest announcement that Russia would not accept US dollars in payment for gas could only be enforced if Russia could get its international gas customers to agree. At the time of announcement, nine out of ten customers had, in fact agreed. These decisions were, unquestionably, not reached overnight. This chess move was planned well in advance.)*

When Russia announced that Gazprom, the largest gas supplier in the world, would no longer be accepting US dollars from its clients, the West was shaken by the news.

*End of the Petrodollar*

*So, does this spell the end for the petrodollar? Not just yet. But it does add a nail to the petrodollar coffin, and a rather large nail, at that. It most certainly announces to the world that, if the US continues its schoolyard bully approach, both the Russians and the Chinese are more than ready. They have greater power than the US gave them credit for and, as we are witnessing, are more adept at the game itself.

Time after time, the US announces a flimsy new policy that is half-baked at best, and the US media announce, in effect, "This'll show 'em!" And yet, at every turn, the Sino-Russian tag-team deals blow after blow to US hegemony in the world.

The US is at war with China and Russia. It's an undeclared war, and it's monetary warfare, not military warfare. Yes, there are the military distractions, such as in the Ukraine and the Middle East, but the primary war is being fought monetarily.

If we observe the Asian responses to the US attacks in this war, and assess them objectively, we see that the Asians do not seek to kill off the US. In each battle, they, like skilled bullfighters, deflect the charging bull, then thrust the sword forward, wounding him again and again with every charge.

As this approach is becoming a pattern, it would indicate that the Russians and Chinese, much like a bullfighter, are wearing out the bull and provoking him to lose enough blood that, soon, he will no longer be able to continue the fight.

There will be no H-bomb moment here. No point at which the US, to the entire world's surprise, suddenly self-destructs. Just as Rome wound down 2000 years ago, we shall observe a similar winding down of the US. (Although there will be many sudden crashes along the way, the entire process will stretch out for years.)*

*And I believe the US will be kept alive by the victors. It will remain in business as a country and will serve the East, particularly as a consumer of Eastern-produced goods.

But it will cease to be the world's empire. Much as the British Empire wound down as a result of the world wars, the US will be greatly diminished in power.

More and more, US residents are coming to realise that the "recovery" that is forever being heralded as "just around the corner" will not arrive. No "green shoots," no "shovel-ready jobs" will materialise. The US are attempting to win a chess game by playing checkers, and they will not succeed. The US's place in the world will be a casualty of that error, as will be the US economy.

[Thank you to Huaqiao 2013 at CDF for the original post]*

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## cnleio

Cold War with Russian, Economic War with Chinese.







Piss off Russia & China together ...

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## TaiShang

*Two great nations joining forces.*

*“China-Russia partnership enters new stage” *
*The BRICS Post*

*



Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi (R) shakes hands with Mikhail Babich, Russia’s presidential envoy to the Volga Federal District in Samara, Russia, on June 23, 2014 [Xinhua]
*
At a forum on developing cities around China’s Yangtze and Russia’s Volga rivers, top Chinese State Councilor Yang Jiechi said the China-Russia strategic partnership has “entered *a new stage*”.

Yang held talks with Valentina Matviyenko, Chairperson of the Federation Council of Russian Federation on Tuesday in Moscow.

Yang co-chaired the forum in the Russian city of Samara in the southwest earlier this week, which is expected to boost Moscow’s diplomatic and economic ties with China.

Yang said, “China is willing to carry out strategic cooperation with Russia” *to promote “world and regional peace, stability and development”.*

“The cooperation between noncontiguous regions of the two countries should be strengthened for a win-win deal,” he added.

The forum is seen as a step to implement the consensus reached by Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin at a conference held in Shanghai last month.

Xi hosted Putin in China last month during which the two allies signed a massive $400 billion natural gas supply deal.

*The deal is aimed at offsetting attempts by the EU and US to throttle the Russian economy through sanctions over the Ukraine crisis.*

Russia is a major trade partner of China. In the first four months of 2014, trade volume grew by 3.4 per cent year on year to $29.06 billion, official statistics showed.

*Russian President Vladimir Putin* will meet *“ally and friend” Xi Jinping* during the 6th BRICS Summit in Brazil on July 15th.

Apart from strengthening the BRICS bloc of emerging economies, the two leaders are slated to hold bilateral talks.

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## xunzi

A tag team of China-Russia would be unstopable in the 21st cenutry. Energy + manpower is invincible! @vostok

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## TaiShang

China's source diversification strategy is working amazingly well. Although it is geographically remoter to the Middle East than (say, India), and more vulnerable to maritime threats, vast land borders to the energy rich Central Asia and Russia seem to be a blessing and China has been capitalizing on this amazingly well. There are alrady five overland (crude oil natural gas) pipelines from three directions. 

*Kazakh Senate nod to Russia-China oil transit *
*The BRICS Post*

*


Kazakhstan and Russia, both top oil producers, signed the agreement to transport the Russian oil through Kazakhstan in December 2013 [Xinhua]
*
Kazakhstan’s Senate ratified an agreement Thursday between the Central Asian nation and Russia on cooperation in transporting Russian oil to China.

Kazakhstan and Russia, both top oil producers, signed the agreement to transport the Russian oil through Kazakhstan in December 2013.

Under the agreement, Kazakhstan agreed to provide long-term access to pipelines linking the three countries for the transport of 7-10 million tons of oil per year.

It is free to replace Russian oil with Kazakh oil, provided it is of the same quantity and quality specified in the contract with China.

Both Kazakhstan and Russia are seeking alternative routes for their oil exports in the face of a tougher third round of sanctions against Moscow over the Ukraine crisis.

The presidents of Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus signed a treaty last month forging the Eurasian Economic Union, a vast trading bloc.

If successful, the EaEU would unite up to 217 million people, says Lode Vanoost, a former deputy Belgian Parliament speaker.

[URL='http://thebricspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/pipeline-gas.jpg']“The EaEU is among many other things an answer to the EU, a perfectly legitimate one. The EU and the US may not like it, that is their right, but the days in which everything in the world was their ‘business’ are over,” writes Vanoost.[/URL]


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## Globenim

Thank you U.S.A for forcing EU to sanction Russia DD

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China nod to integration of satellite systems
RT News*






*China and Russia have signed a memorandum of understanding to cooperate in developing navigation satellite systems.*

*The document to let China’s Beidou and Russia’s GLONASS collaborate, was signed on Monday by the China Satellite Navigation Office and Russian Federal Space Agency on the sidelines of the on-going China-Russia expo in Harbin.*

China’s homegrown Beidou Navigation Satellite System began providing initial positioning, navigation and timing operational services to China in December 2011. Beidou is compatible and interoperable with the world’s other major global navigation satellite systems, including Russia’s Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS).

*“We’d like to work with our Chinese friends in several space services – in cartography and communications. In the future, we’d like to create our own radio-resistant equipment and spacecraft vehicles,” Russian Vice Premier Dmitry Rogozin was quoted by Itar Tass agency.*

Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang said in Harbin on Monday that the two countries will establish a working mechanism for collaboration in space exploration.

Ran Chengqi, director of the China Satellite Navigation Office, said Russia and China plan to build monitoring stations in each other’s territory, which will promote the integration of the two satellite navigation systems.

*“Our cooperation in the field of satellite navigation never targets a third party,” he said, adding that the integration of multiple satellite navigation systems must be the trend ahead internationally.*

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said the two systems, GLONASS and Beidou, “fit together well”.

Russia is also looking forward to cooperating with China in other aerospace fields, such as “the exploration of the Moon and Mars, rocket engine-building, piloted cosmonautics, the development of a long-range wide-body passenger airliner and modernization of the Russian heavy Mil Mi-26 helicopter”.

*Russia is a major trade partner of China. In the first four months of 2014, the bilateral trade volume grew by 3.4 per cent year on year to $29.06 billion.*

Rogozin said bilateral trade between the two countries could reach $200 billion before the slated target year of 2020.

“We have a task set by the leaders of Russia and China to raise the volume of our trade and economic relations to $200 billion by 2020. But I believe that if we proceed at such high rates and develop large, primarily infrastructural projects to help unite energy of Russia and China, then we believe that this figure can be achieved before that time,” Rogozin said.

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## xunzi

Let go to Moon and Mars together with our Russian friend @vostok

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## vostok

xunzi said:


> Let go to Moon and Mars together with our Russian friend @vostok


I'm sure it will be so.

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## cnleio

xunzi said:


> Let go to Moon and Mars together with our Russian friend


Yes we should invest more into space industry, develop safe & cheap spacecraft.

The earth is becoming more and more dangerous ! Next 100 years, the earth will become a Nuclear Powder Keg.

Some nations owned advanced space technology should work together, to explore & settle other planets before nuclear winter coming.

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## Mr.S.Singh

I guess india now has to give up Glonass now

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## nik141991

Mr.S.Singh said:


> I guess india now has to give up Glonass now



how, Indian Russian collaboration don't affect china why their collaboration affect us


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## Mr.S.Singh

nik141991 said:


> how, Indian Russian collaboration don't affect china why their collaboration affect us


Basically, both satellite combined together would form a navigation system. Now i don't know how well it would go down with Indians or Chinese that Indian missiles/Forces are using Glonass


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## pigtaker

nik141991 said:


> how, Indian Russian collaboration don't affect china why their collaboration affect us


You indians should feel insecure and butt burning, cause our partnership cooperation with Russia is a diffirent from your vendor- client one.

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

cnleio said:


> Yes we should invest more into space industry, develop safe & cheap spacecraft.
> 
> The earth is becoming more and more dangerous ! Next 100 years, the earth will become a Nuclear Powder Keg.
> 
> Some nations owned advanced space technology should work together, to explore & settle other planets before nuclear winter coming.




This world is a 5hit hole at times but i think that spending money improving this world is much more sensible than chasing sci fi dreams. 

A few more centuries is required before considering colonizing other planets in any meaningful way.


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## Mr.S.Singh

pigtaker said:


> You indians should feel insecure and butt burning, cause our partnership cooperation with Russia is a diffirent from your vendor- client one.


Thats so cute, anyways Glonass was used under permission, no investment ... flick a switch and go back to GPS n INS
as for south asia, IRNSS is taking shape as we speak


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## pigtaker

Mr.S.Singh said:


> Thats so cute, anyways Glonass was used under permission, no investment ... flick a switch and go back to GPS n INS
> as for south asia, IRNSS is taking shape as we speak


military application is not free

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## Mr.S.Singh

pigtaker said:


> military application is not free


terminate subscription ??


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## pigtaker

Mr.S.Singh said:


> terminate subscription ??


we got our medicien from US, they can turn off the signal anytime they want when they fell neccessary.

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## nik141991

pigtaker said:


> military application is not free



IRNSS will be expanded in near future just like GLONASS, well most of ICBM use internal navigation systems & thall all we need to hit china


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## Mr.S.Singh

pigtaker said:


> we got our medicien from US, they can turn off the signal anytime they want when they fell neccessary.


agreed, but with currently they wouldnt terminate indian signal against China
once IRNSS is fully operational in south asia by march 2015, plans are to increase coverage to asia


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## Owl of Abott

The $400 billion, 30-year China-Russia gas deal signed in Shanghai on May 21 has sparked a lot of excitement about hydrocarbons in the Russian Arctic and subarctic.



Under the agreement, which had been in the works for a decade, Gazprom will supply China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) with 1.34 trillion cubic feet of gas annually beginning in 2018. The deal fulfills Russia’s goal, as outlined in its Energy Strategy to 2030, to increase exports to Asia. By 2030, the strategy envisions that eastern-bound exports of oil will constitute 22 percent to 25 percent (as opposed to the current 6 percent), and gas 19 percent to 20 percent as opposed to the current 0 percent. (Since Russia already exports natural gas to Japan and South Korea from Sakhalin, I am not sure why the report’s current figure for natural gas exports to East Asia is 0 percent.)
Much of this gas will be delivered through a new pipeline that Gazprom is constructing from the Siberian gas fields of Kovykta (Irkutsk) and Chayanda (Yakutsk) to the Chinese border. A couple of other pipelines will also need to be built, as this handy map from the Washington Post illustrates.



Reflecting the hype surrounding the potential for Russian energy exports to the east, bookings for the Sakhalin Oil and Gas conference, happening later this year in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, are already four times what they were last year. It may be these resources in sub-Arctic areas like Sakhalin that are developed thanks to the China-Russia gas deal -- not yet the ones in the offshore Arctic. As Elizabeth Buchanan writes in the East Asia Forum, the deal “allows for the delay in Sino–Russian exploration of offshore Arctic energy reserves -- a challenging and environmentally hazardous endeavour, which will require more time to develop the necessary technology. In the meantime, the large gas reserves in Eastern Siberia and the Russian Far East can sooner be brought onstream.” So perhaps the biggest consequence of the China-Russia gas deal is increased development of subarctic oil and gas fields in the Russian Far East in the short term while setting a precedent for cooperation between the two countries that can be expanded to the Arctic in the long term.



With its still-booming economy, China is hungry for not just Russia’s oil and gas resources, but those of the wider Arctic region, too. Several state-owned Chinese oil companies have interests in Arctic hydrocarbon development. CNPC has a 20 percent stake in the Yamal project, which is in the Arctic. Once Yamal is up and running, during the summer months, gas will be transported east along the Northern Sea Route to Asia in ice-class 7 LNG tankers to be built by South Korean company Daewoo. In winter, the LNG will travel west to Europe. CNPC is also partnering with Rosneft to explore three fields in the Barents and Pechora Seas. And in Iceland, China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) is partnering with the country’s Eykon Energy to explore the Dreki oil field off the island’s northeast coast.

Chinese linkages between energy, defense and the north
Reflecting the linkages between energy security, defense, and the Arctic for China, earlier this month, a Chinese military think tank issued its 54,000-word Strategy Assessment 2013, which has a definite focus on the Arctic, among other regions. I haven’t been able to locate the assessment online, but this article from China News (in Mandarin) by reporter Tao Shelan sums up its polar content. While Tao’s entire article is worth reading or running through Google Translate, one particularly important section explains the Arctic’s geo-economic potential for China:



“China is located in the northern hemisphere and has an important strategic interest in the Arctic related to the sustainable development of the national economy and national security. The rich oil and gas resources in the Arctic and convenient shipping conditions for ensuring sustainable economic development in China are important. The future of the Arctic is expected to become China’s important energy supply base overseas.China will follow the equality and mutual benefit, cooperation and win-win principle, countries with Arctic energy cooperation. China is concerned about the potential impact of accelerated melting of Arctic ice on the global economy and trade. The Arctic route may constitute a huge impact on China’s future maritime shipping, hope and pragmatic cooperation with Arctic countries, mutual benefit and win-win.”



It may be win-win, but with many analysts thinking China got the better end of the deal in negotiations with Gazprom, some countries will win more than others.

*China: No fear of pipelines to Russia*


With its long, eastward facing coast and land borders with multiple hydrocarbon-producing countries, China’s ability to pursue numerous oil and gas options gives it an immense amount of flexibility and leverage in negotiating deals. Vladimir Portyakov, deputy director of the official Institute of Far Eastern Studies in Moscow, stated in an interview with the Christian Science Monitor, “It’s an issue of national security for China. Sea routes for oil and liquefied natural gas are vulnerable. Much better to have it directly delivered in pipelines from a neighboring state.” China, however, is likely acting more out of a desire to simply diversify its sources of oil and natural gas rather than shift away from maritime transport of hydrocarbons.



Regardless, China’s deal with Russia shows its continued faith in building pipelines to Russia and through the restive autonomous province of Xinjiang to Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan, despite the geopolitical insecurities inherent within these fixed infrastructures that make many smaller European countries uneasy. Just as China invests more in pipelines, countries like Lithuania (100 percent reliant on Russian gas imports) are seeking to move away from them and instead build LNG import terminals such as Klaipėda on the Baltic Sea.



And for Russia, the gas deal exemplifies the energy sector’s pivot to Asia, which is happening for both political and geographic reasons. One, as noted above, many countries in Europe are increasingly viewing Russian gas supplies with wary eyes, even as they remain highly dependent on them. Two, the fields in western Siberia that supply Europe are being depleted. As the Russian energy strategy explains, the “depletion of the main gas deposits in the Nadym-Pur-Taz district of the Tyumen Region” has led to the “necessity of developing new gas-producing centers on the Yamal Peninsula and continental shelf of the Arctic and Far Eastern seas, in the Eastern Siberia and Far East.” Russia has to look to Asian countries to buy the gas from these areas -- not Europe. Luckily, China is not too worried about building pipelines to Russia, unlike much of Europe.

*Consequences for North American hydrocarbon exports*


The Russia-China gas deal also affects prospects for North American oil and gas exports. China’s deal with Russia could put downward pressure on LNG prices in East Asia, where they are generally the highest in the world. Unlike oil, which is sold on a global market, the market for LNG is regional. The deal between Gazprom and CNPC is rumored to be between $10 to $10.50 per million Btu, which is almost 25 percent cheaper than the current $13 spot price in Asia. As Reuters suggests, the relative bargain that China won from Gazprom means that other countries like Japan and South Korea, which are also interested in Arctic LNG and even gas via pipelines to Russia, might not have to pay as high prices. This could spell bad news for Canada and the United States, which are eager to capitalize on high Asian gas prices by exporting their surplus gas. Unlike Russia, their resources are trapped. They can’t easily lay pipelines across the wide Pacific Ocean.



Canada has conditionally approved the Northern Gateway pipeline, which would send oil and gas from Alberta across British Columbia to Asia -- but it will likely never actually get built in part due to indigenous and environmental protest. And in the U.S., although the federal government has been issuing more permits lately to allow the export of natural gas to countries with which the U.S. does not have a free trade agreement, these projects, such as the Jordan Cove LNG liquefaction terminal in Oregon, won’t be up and running until at least 2017.
*The winners: Asia -- and maybe the Arctic*


At the end of the day, it looks like China and Asia are the winners. Russia has to settle for accepting a relatively low price for its gas -- the same price that Europe pays on average. North America will have to settle for the crumbs if they ever manage to build the pipelines and LNG export terminals necessary to export their overflowing resources east across the Pacific.



In the near term, the Arctic environment may also be a winner. With the attention of China and other investors now on East Siberia and the Russian Far East, the Gazprom-CNPC gas deal could see some Arctic offshore projects put on hold. Then again, one should never underestimate the ability of China to juggle multiple projects at once -- by all means necessary.

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## BoQ77

*Russia, China have no plans to create military alliance, such coalitions proved ineffective - Sergei Ivanov*
GUIYANG, China. July 10 (Interfax) - Creating a military alliance between Russia and China is impossible and Beijing agrees with this, Russian presidential administration head Sergei Ivanov told reporters in Guiyang on Thursday.

"I do not see any sense, same as China, in creating a new military alliance, union or something like that between us," Ivanov said.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

This declaration is just to comfort those cowards and insecure foes that couldin't withstand the pressure of such alliance or they will have heart attack.

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## BoQ77

Whatever you said


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## William Hung

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This declaration is just to comfort those cowards and insecure foes that couldin't withstand the pressure of such alliance or they will have heart attack.



The Viet members here are heart broken and still cannot accept the fact that Russia is closer to China than their relationship with VN. 

It's similar to the situation when a hooker have a relationship with a rich married man. When the married man decide to dump the hooker, the hooker is heartbroken and beg the rich sugar daddy to come back. The hooker still hold on to the delusion that they still have strong relationship. This is common in the movie and real life.

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## BoQ77

Black Flag said:


> The Viet members here are heart broken and still cannot accept the fact that Russia is closer to China than their relationship with VN.
> 
> It's similar to the situation when a hooker have a relationship with a rich married man. When the married man decide to dump the hooker, the hooker is heartbroken and beg the rich sugar daddy to come back. The hooker still hold on to the delusion that they still have strong relationship. This is common in the movie and real life.



there's no love for a hooker with rich man. only money bonded them ...
Russia and China are still potential enemies. That's why China built a lot of MBT tanks.
Tell me, China tanks are for confronting Japan or Russia ? Ah, yes for confronting Chinese people too ... just like in Tiananmen Square 1989

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## William Hung

BoQ77 said:


> there's no love for a hooker with rich man. only money bonded them ...
> Russia and China are still potential enemies. That's why China built a lot of MBT tanks.
> Tell me, China tanks are for confronting Japan or Russia ? Ah, yes for confronting Chinese people too ... just like in Tiananmen Square 1989



I was talking about the bond between your country and Russia. There is no love and respect within this bond, just like the bond between a hooker and rich man. 

I believe VN remained silent during the Georgia, Crimea and Syria crisis. Your govt did not give any public support to Russia. Unlike China who openly supported Russia's position in Syria. 

Like I said before, your govt played the two face in order to woo all the Russian and Western sugar daddy. So now you have no respect from Russia and have no real allies.

Whatever differences there are between Russia and China, it is inevitable that they will become allies out of convenience in the foreseeable future.

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## Viet

Ha ha ha ha ha...another delusional dream of chinese is dead 
Time to accept the fact that Russia wants rather a military alliance with us, like the old days between Soviet Union and Vietnam.


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## Pakistanisage

Of Course a lot of cooperation can occur without declaring a Formal Defense Alliance....


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## William Hung

Pakistanisage said:


> Of Course a lot of cooperation can occur without declaring a Formal Defense Alliance....



You are right, this is not the cold war anymore where everyone is rushing to ink their formal alliance or MDT on paper for the whole world to see. 

"Alliances" these days are demonstrated through concrete actions and cooperation. An example would be China and Russia cooperation on the Syrian issue, military exercises in crucial area, massive trade deals etc.


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## Oldman1

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This declaration is just to comfort those cowards and insecure foes that couldin't withstand the pressure of such alliance or they will have heart attack.



Seems to me it should be the other way around. We are not going to make an alliance because we are scared and could make us insecure.


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## Sam.

Oldman1 said:


> Seems to me it should be the other way around. We are not going to make an alliance because we are scared and could make us insecure.



Cmon now China is almost Superpower so how can you even think that? (blink)


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## ChineseTiger1986

While the West ramps up pressure on Russia and its President Vladimir Putin over the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jetliner over eastern Ukraine, Moscow is finding some support from the East.
Read MoreStocks lower as geopolitical worries weigh

Since the weekend Chinese media have been highly critical of the approach of Western nations such as the U.S., saying in editorials that these countries have been too quick to point fingers at Moscow-backed rebels and implicate Russia for escalating violence.

State news agency Xinhua has called U.S. and Australian officials "rash" to blame Russia before the conclusion of a thorough investigation of the downing of MH17. It said the top priority is for countries to cooperate to "find out the real culprits, if any". The Communist Party-backed newspaper, _The Global Times_, said Monday, "The premature trial by Western media is not based on known facts and logic."
Read MoreUS presses case against Russia on MH17

The comments are a signal that, despite historical differences and mistrust between China and Russia, the two powers are increasingly finding common ground. Both are currently going through strained relations with the West and are accused of engaging in aggressive foreign policy that could destabilize their regions—Russia in Ukraine and China in the East and South China Seas. Yet both are in need of diplomatic and economic support—a key reason for Russian President Vladimir Putin's pivot East. Even if the two may not see eye to eye on the price of gas, neither will criticize the other on political affairs.

In a weekend editorial, China's Global Times sided with Russia's perspective on the Ukraine conflict. "The real culprit to blame, in fact, is the chaotic situation in Ukraine following the Crimea crisis," it reads. "The Western countries have been active in advocating and supporting the 'democratic revolution' in Ukraine, so as to lure the country to become the frontier outpost of the West's geopolitical expansion. Ukraine has paid a huge price."

In China's eyes, the West bears responsibility for troubles in Ukraine—a view that shows Russia is not alone even as it becomes increasingly isolated.

—_By CNBC's Eunice Yoon_

China: Don’t rush to blame Russia on MH17

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## Jlaw

The people of the west's (mainly North America) first response is always emotional, finding someone to blame without thoroughly investigating the incident, and lack cognitive sense t separate opinions, fact vs. fiction.

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## VelocuR

Russia doesn't seek China's response to protect Russia from the West media pressures, right?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Jlaw said:


> The people of the west's first response is always emotional, finding someone to blame without thoroughly investigating the incident, and lack cognitive sense t separate opinions, fact vs. fiction.



And the "traitorous China" has already raised its voice, so now it is the time for the "loyal Vietnam" to show its stance as well. 



RaptorRX707 said:


> Russia doesn't seek China's response to protect Russia from the West media pressures, right?



Russia doesn't need anyone's protection, but at least you have to show that you are a reliable long term partner.

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## Götterdämmerung

Jlaw said:


> The people of the west's first response is always emotional, finding someone to blame without thoroughly investigating the incident, and lack cognitive sense t separate opinions, fact vs. fiction.



You can't generalise on all people in Europe on their reaction, there are a lot of people who think differently. It's our mighty propaganda machinery and our sock puppet politicians that are to blame.

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## Jlaw

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> And the "traitorous China" has already raised its voice, so now it is the time for the "loyal Vietnam" to show its stance.
> 
> 
> 
> .



This should interesting. Will Vietnam side with Russia or the west? Or will they try and play two-face again?



Götterdämmerung said:


> You can't generalise on all people in Europe on their reaction, there are a lot of people who think differently. It's our mighty propaganda machinery and our sock puppet politicians that are to blame.


I was thinking more of the US when I wrote that.

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## VelocuR

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia doesn't need anyone's protection, but at least you have to show that you are a reliable long term partner.



I think, Russia already know the benefits of long term partner is China, I don't want China to response everything on Russia issues against West. What I need to see Russia should responses more than China to support their partner, Russia need to prove it.

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## Jlaw

But I have not heard regional southern power India's official comments yet. What are they waiting for? Isn't Russia their all weathered friend?

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## terranMarine

Jlaw said:


> This should interesting. Will Vietnam side with Russia or the west? Or will they try and play two-face again?



i'm more interested in the intercepted cargo by the Finnish custom, were the Vietcongs supplying to Ukraine or the pro Russian separatists

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## ChineseTiger1986

Jlaw said:


> This should interesting. Will Vietnam side with Russia or the west? Or will they try and play two-face again?
> 
> 
> I was thinking more of the US when I wrote that.



Yep, this is the perfect opportunity to test to see it is the real friendship or just a backstabber now is looking for a new master.

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## Jlaw

terranMarine said:


> i'm more interested in the intercepted cargo by the Finnish custom, were the Vietcongs supplying to Ukraine or the pro Russian separatists


Most likely both.

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## terranMarine

Jlaw said:


> Most likely both.



In that case VN will most likely keep its mouth shut when it comes to voicing support

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## ChineseTiger1986

terranMarine said:


> In that case VN will most likely keep its mouth shut when it comes to voicing support



The "traitorous China" is co-founding the BRICS Bank with Russia in order to bypass all the western sanctions.

And the "loyal Vietnam" doesn't even bother to provide some lip service? What a shame.

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## gambit

Jlaw said:


> The people of the west's (mainly North America) first response is always emotional, finding someone to blame without thoroughly investigating the incident, and lack cognitive sense t separate opinions, fact vs. fiction.


The same emotional response that convinced many Russians, aided by government controlled media, that Ukraine and Crimea deserved invasion ?

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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> The same emotional response that convinced many Russians, aided by government controlled media, that Ukraine and Crimea deserved invasion ?



There was no invasion, unless you can post proofs that Russian military crossed the border into Ukraine territory. The whole Crimean story didn't cause one death on Crimea.

On the other hand, we have tons of pics showing how the US illegally invaded Iraq based and lying to the world at the UN. Oh, and the death toll of Iraqi civilians ….

Definition of invasion: Invasion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Informant

Team USA, sorry guys dont bite me


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## gambit

We see a bunch of Chinese living in the free West, supporting government controlled media in general, but admonishes citizens in the Western countries not to believe what the Western media say.

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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> We see a bunch of Chinese living in the free West, supporting government controlled media in general, but admonishes citizens in the Western countries not to believe what the Western media say.




May I introduce you to thousands of Chinese living in Germany who don't trust our media?

Here:
Verdichten sich die Beweise für einen Abschuss durch Separatisten | Telepolis-Artikelforen

Die Propagandaschau | Ein niemals vollständiges Logbuch deutscher Medienpropaganda

http://alles-schallundrauch.blogspot.de/2014/07/video-mit-raketentran sporter-ist-eine.html?m=1

I also have thousands of Chinese living in France and the UK who don't believe in their respective propaganda.

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## ChineseTiger1986

gambit said:


> We see a bunch of Chinese living in the free West, supporting government controlled media in general, but admonishes citizens in the Western countries not to believe what the Western media say.



Not even the western born citizens believe the propaganda of the western media, so why should we believe it?

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## gambit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Not even the western born citizens believe the propaganda of the western media, so why should we believe it?


Duh...That is the point. Too subtle for you, I guess.

The Western media is not as legally and politically constrained as you Chinese would like in the mold of what the Party is doing in China, and yet we have doubts on what they say. We have media watchers who constantly verify and re-verify what each news source say. Such is anathema to your sheeple mentality. And yet you live in the West and while enjoys the benefits of these freedoms, you continues to advocate controls of the media and propaganda for the people.

And you wonder why no one takes you Chinese seriously when it comes to politics and related issues.


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## ChineseTiger1986

gambit said:


> Duh...That is the point. Too subtle for you, I guess.
> 
> The Western media is not as legally and politically constrained as you Chinese would like in the mold of what the Party is doing in China, and yet we have doubts on what they say. We have media watchers who constantly verify and re-verify what each news source say. Such is anathema to your sheeple mentality. And yet you live in the West and while enjoys the benefits of these freedoms, you continues to advocate controls of the media and propaganda for the people.
> 
> And you wonder why no one takes you Chinese seriously when it comes to politics and related issues.



Try to convince your own citizens first. 

The Daily Bell - Severe Disaffection: Seventy-five Percent of US Citizens Don't Trust Government


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## gambit

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Try to convince your own citizens first.
> 
> The Daily Bell - Severe Disaffection: Seventy-five Percent of US Citizens Don't Trust Government


Distrust of government is good, sheeple.

But it is continuing on why we do not take clueless Internet Chinese seriously: You advocate mistrust of Western governments, but blind belief for what the Chinese government says.


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## Jlaw

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Not even the western born citizens believe the propaganda of the western media, so why should we believe it?



The western media cried wolf too often. Even if they start telling the truth now which I doubt, I and many like myself will not believe them.

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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> Distrust of government is good, sheeple.
> 
> But it is continuing on why we do not take clueless Internet Chinese seriously: You advocate mistrust of Western governments, but blind belief for what the Chinese government says.



I have yet to see the Chinese government lie to the world like the US did at the UN.

On the other hand, even Willy Wimmer, an old hardcore CDU man (the current gov's party) and a former secretary of the defense ministry and vice-president of the OSCE said in an interview that he trusts more RT and CCTV than our own media and he also gave the reason why.

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## gambit

Götterdämmerung said:


> I have yet to see the Chinese government lie...


Of course, you believe everything the Chinese government say, including that it never lied. 

And you actually believe that we took you at your words that you are a 'journalist' ? That ended a looooooong time ago.

Anchor: I can't be part of network 'that whitewashes' Putin's actions - CNN.com

State-funded news anchor Abby Martin: 'What Russia did is wrong' - CNN.com

Russia Today Anchor Resigns, Admits To Spreading 'Lies' For Putin

I wonder how many Chinese news anchors have this kind of courage.


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## gambit

'Lies in our newspapers are like rat droppings in clear soup: they are both obvious and disgusting.'

Yeah...And the Chinese and their suck-ups would like us to believe the Chinese government never lied, even when their own party officials admitted they lied. Sheeple failed to adequately describe these ya-hoos.


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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> Of course, you believe everything the Chinese government say, including that it never lied.
> 
> And you actually believe that we took you at your words that you are a 'journalist' ? That ended a looooooong time ago.
> 
> Anchor: I can't be part of network 'that whitewashes' Putin's actions - CNN.com
> 
> State-funded news anchor Abby Martin: 'What Russia did is wrong' - CNN.com
> 
> Russia Today Anchor Resigns, Admits To Spreading 'Lies' For Putin
> 
> I wonder how many Chinese news anchors have this kind of courage.



Hahaha, what a cheap spin doctor you are. Since you cannot refute any of my previous posts in this thread you try to spin it in another direction and shamelessly shorten my post to fit into your spin. 

BTW, that Liz Wahl has been exposed as a faker: Exposed Neocon tool Liz Wahl embarks on rear-guard PR defense tour

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## Jlaw

Götterdämmerung said:


> Hahaha, what a cheap spin doctor you are. Since you cannot refute any of my previous posts in this thread you try to spin it in another direction and shamelessly shorten my post to fit into your spin.
> 
> BTW, that Liz Wahl has been exposed as a faker: Exposed Neocon tool Liz Wahl embarks on rear-guard PR defense tour



I don't even bother commenting to that delusional Vietnamese. He thinks Asians in the US are treated the same as whites.

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## gambit

Götterdämmerung said:


> Hahaha, what a cheap spin doctor you are. Since you cannot refute any of my previous posts in this thread you try to spin it in another direction and shamelessly shorten my post to fit into your spin.


I only quoted what was necessary. The rest is *YOUR* spin.

Are you still standing by the claim that you are a 'journalist' ?



Götterdämmerung said:


> BTW, that Liz Wahl has been exposed as a faker: Exposed Neocon tool Liz Wahl embarks on rear-guard PR defense tour


Liz Wahl was employed by RT News. What is fake about that ? Are you going to say Abby Martin and Sara Firth are 'neocons' plants as well ?



Jlaw said:


> I don't even bother commenting to that delusional Vietnamese. He thinks Asians in the US are treated the same as whites.


Bravo...A Chinese never fails to trot out the race card.


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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> I only quoted what was necessary. The rest is *YOUR* spin.
> 
> Are you still standing by the claim that you are a 'journalist' ?
> 
> 
> Liz Wahl was employed by RT News. What is fake about that ? Are you going to say Abby Martin and Sally Firth are 'neocons' plants as well ?



By misquoting me? You see, you have no respect of people. No wonder nobody respects you. 

What a sad individual you are.

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## gambit

Götterdämmerung said:


> By misquoting me? You see, you have no respect of people. No wonder nobody respects you.
> 
> What a sad individual you are.


I did not 'misquote' you. I only pointed out what is relevant, which in this case is your sheeple mentality when it comes to China.

It is hilarious that you would try to discredit Liz Wahl. If she was 'exposed' as a neocon, then by tacit admission, you admitted that the rest of the RT News staff are submissive tools for the Russian government. Congrats.


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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> I did not 'misquote' you. I only pointed out what is relevant, which in this case is your sheeple mentality when it comes to China.
> 
> It is hilarious that you would try to discredit Liz Wahl. If she was 'exposed' as a neocon, then by tacit admission, you admitted that the rest of the RT News staff are submissive tools for the Russian government. Congrats.




Who are you to tell me what is relevant in a short sentence I wrote? What kind of drugs do they give you at the military hospital?

Pathetic and sad individual you are.

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## gambit

Götterdämmerung said:


> Who are you to tell me what is relevant in a short sentence I wrote?


God.


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## terranMarine

gambit said:


> God.


More like a worm to me


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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> God.



Oh, that kind of drugs they gave you.

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## gambit

Götterdämmerung said:


> Oh, that kind of drugs they gave you.


At least I need drugs to believe that I am 'God'. In your case, you deluded yourself that the Chinese government never lied. We have to give high credit to Chinese propaganda for convincing so many to believe that lie, especially to those who actually lived in both worlds. Self delusion is indeed powerful. More powerful than drugs, really.


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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> At least I need drugs to believe that I am 'God'. In your case, you deluded yourself that the Chinese government never lied. We have to give high credit to Chinese propaganda for convincing so many to believe that lie, especially to those who actually lived in both worlds. Self delusion is indeed powerful. More powerful than drugs, really.



Isn't it time again to take your medication? Reality could be hard once the effect lessens and you realise that you are a nobody.

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## KRAIT

@ChineseTiger1986 Look at this 

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Russians are playing with their media too.


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## gambit

Götterdämmerung said:


> Isn't it time again to take your medication? Reality could be hard once the effect lessens and you realise that you are a nobody.


And your reality is that the Chinese government never lied.


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## Götterdämmerung

gambit said:


> And your reality is that the Chinese government never lied.



Poor boy, there are drugs that lightens up your mood and gives you a god-like feeling, but there are no drugs that gives you reading skill.


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## xuxu1457

I am still waiting for the evidence of Iraq's Weapons of mass destruction

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> And the "traitorous China" has already raised its voice, so now it is the time for the "loyal Vietnam" to show its stance as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Russia doesn't need anyone's protection, but at least you have to show that you are a reliable long term partner.


Our stance is clear. If we voice support for Russia, we will risk to be drawn into the escalating conflict and our credibility in the West. Same shit will happen if we support Ukraine, we will disappoint our friend Russia.

Conclusion: Vietnam officially calls both sides for crease fire and negotiation as seen in the press. You may be right if you assume that we speak to both Russia and Ukraine over diplomatic and other channels. Most likely over military channel as we maintain a close military cooperation.

Personally I am very sceptical of Russia' s annexation of Crimea. Many Vietnamese don't support Putin as the act is a clear violence of sovereignty of Ukraine and international laws. Russia is very big, the largest country on earth. it does not need more territories.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Jlaw said:


> But I have not heard regional southern power India's official comments yet. *What are they waiting for?* Isn't Russia their all weathered friend?



Your comment on pdf of course


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> Our stance is clear. If we voice support for Russia, we will risk to be drawn into the escalating conflict and our credibility in the West. Same shit will happen if we support Ukraine, we will disappoint our friend Russia.
> 
> Conclusion: Vietnam officially calls both sides for crease fire and negotiation as seen in the press. You may be right if you assume that we speak to both Russia and Ukraine over diplomatic and other channels. Most likely over military channel as we maintain a close military cooperation.
> 
> Personally I am very sceptical of Russia' s annexation of Crimea. Many Vietnamese don't support Putin as the act is a clear violence of sovereignty of Ukraine and international laws. Russia is very big, the largest country on earth. it does not need more territories.



Good, you guys will eventually pay a price for your weakness and incompetence.

Expect that Russia will screw you up in the near future for this betrayal.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Good, you guys will eventually pay a price for your weakness and incompetence.
> 
> Expect that Russia will screw you up in the near future for this betrayal.


right is right, wrong remains wrong. friendship does not mean non-critical to everything the friend does. Vietnam relationship with Russia and Ukraine goes back to the times of Soviet Union. there is a deep understanding and trust between the sides.

your understanding of "betrayal" is not ours.

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## doremon

china u have balls u have stood for your friends both in tough and good times,where as politicians in India are discussing whether we should or shouldn't support Russia..


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## dlclong

In Palestine, innocent civilians are dying, 
Why Westerners only see MH17

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## mike2000

No surprise here. China of course will normally side/favour Russia, giving their current relations/partnership against 'U.S/western imperialism'. 
What I would like to see is indias position. It is a big country as well and has been eagerly seeking a permanent UNSC membership for a while now. It should know that wiith this position comes grear responsibilities which I dont think India is mature or strong enough yet to take sides/make decisive decisions. So I dont see the use of a permanent role for it at this moment in time. 
I also recently read that some russian origin vietnamese missiles were intercepted in finland. Dont knoe how credible is this news. But if it waa real then its obvious that russia is using its little partner vietnam to ship weapons to ukraine seperatists. It will be interesting to see U.S/E.U response to this against Russia (don't think vietnam will be affected much since its a small country with no real threar/power to make us worry, so the blame will be directed at Moscow IMO).
It will be interesting though to see how this crisis will play out and how the U.S/E.U will react to further fighting/escalation in ukraine


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## Sam.

doremon said:


> china u have balls u have stood for your friends both in tough and good times,where as politicians in India are discussing whether we should or shouldn't support Russia..





mike2000 said:


> No surprise here. China of course will normally side/favour Russia, giving their current relations/partnership against 'U.S/western imperialism'.
> *What I would like to see is indias position. It is a big country as well and has been eagerly seeking a permanent UNSC membership for a while now. It should know that wiith this position comes grear responsibilities which I dont think India is mature or strong enough yet to take sides/make decisive decisions.* So I dont see the use of a permanent role for it at this moment in time.
> I also recently read that some russian origin vietnamese missiles were intercepted in finland. Dont knoe how credible is this news. But if it waa real then its obvious that russia is using its little partner vietnam to ship weapons to ukraine seperatists. It will be interesting to see U.S/E.U response to this against Russia (don't think vietnam will be affected much since its a small country with no real threar/power to make us worry, so the blame will be directed at Moscow IMO).
> It will be interesting though to see how this crisis will play out and how the U.S/E.U will react to further fighting/escalation in ukraine



There are lots of conspiracy theory going around so it's hard to say what happened at the time.

1)Ukraine also moves in Buk missiles with active Radar few days ago , there are also unconfirmed reports that their Radar was active when the plane was destroyed.

2)Separatist has Buk missiles too but they didn't have active Radar but doesn't need a radar in the sites, Russian can give/support via data link to the Buk-M system, otherwise the rebels can't claim to have shoot down Ukrainian gov. AN-25 and Frogfoot previously. 

Until the truth comes out we won't issued a statement ,however we dislike how prematurely USA is blaming Russia or vice versa.

We indeed issued our sympathy to victims of this heinous crime.



> KUALA LUMPUR: India has conveyed its shock and grief over the MH17 tragedy.
> 
> It’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi expressed the Government of India’s full support for an investigation that can help establish the exact circumstances in which the tragic incident took place.
> 
> In a letter addressed to Prime Minister Datuk Seri Mohd Najib Razak, today, he conveyed his deepest condolence and understanding of what all the Malaysian citizens were going through, especially in view of the equally tragic accident that befell Malaysian airlines flight MH-370 some months ago, on which there was still no closure.
> 
> He also stated that his thoughts and prayers were with the family members of all passengers and crew on board the flight and prayed to God to give strength to deal with this difficult time.
> 
> *India’s External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj has conveyed her deep sense of loss and grief to the Government of Malaysia and to the families of those aboard the Malaysian airlines flight.*
> 
> In a letter Datuk Seri Anifah Aman, she conveyed her deep condolences on this tragic incident.
> 
> She also stated that her thoughts and prayers were with the family members of all passengers and crew on board the flight.
> 
> Sushma also mentioned that India stands by the people and Government of Malaysia and other countries whose nationals were on board and their concerns would receive her closest attention.



Also as you sated India can't take decisive decisions well i have answer for you "It's better to be silent than talk crap until the truth comes out"


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## Schutz

dlclong said:


> In Palestine, innocent civilians are dying,
> Why Westerners only see MH17



The news here probably has vastly more coverage of Palestine than in China my friend.


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## Jlaw

Sam. said:


> Also as you sated India can't take decisive decisions well i have answer for you "It's better to be silent than talk crap until the truth comes out"



What you saying is that if the missile was shot by Russian separatists, than Modi will issue a statement condemning Russia? if evidence suggest it was shot by Ukraine forces India will condemn US/ West?

India is not ready for big boy party yet...

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## senheiser

why should china blame russia in the first place, they should have know malaysia airline by now


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## dlclong

Schutz said:


> The news here probably has vastly more coverage of Palestine than in China my friend.


I do not think so. Chinese television news reported a lot about Palestine, but very few Chinese news websites reported, because China's major news portal sites are controlled by the "democrats" Southern Department, they are only interested in negative news coverage in the country, they are Western agents in China，You said that the network news, not TV

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## xesy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Good, you guys will eventually pay a price for your weakness and incompetence.
> 
> Expect that Russia will screw you up in the near future for this betrayal.


Friend does not help friend commiting crime or covering it up. Friend stops friend from doing so.

As of it now, it's unclear for any unrelated countries to officially blame or support Poland, Malaysia, Ukraine or Russia regarding the incident. Furthermore, Vietnam does not have the political power to influence the world media like China does, so it doesn't matter if VN support Russia or not (China hasn't officially taken side with Russia yet, so chill). If Russia were the culpit, then China could just take back its words and blame Russia without any consequences. But VN cannot do the same without lowering its image in the political world. So yeah we won't support Russia yet unless there are clear evidences.


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## Sam.

Jlaw said:


> What you saying is that if the *missile was shot by Russian separatists, than Modi will issue a statement condemning Russia?* if evidence suggest it was *shot by Ukraine forces India will condemn US/ West?*
> 
> India is not ready for big boy party yet...



Sorry i don't understand your point so i would lay out for you

1)If missile was shot by East Ukrainian separatists then India would condemn East Ukrainian separatists not Russia.

2)If it was shot by Ukraine forces then India will condemn Ukraine not US/west.

Your hatred towards West/US made you blind and you can't converge in fact basis while stating the obvious.


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## Hypersonicmissiles

Viets and Indians have backstabbed their friend Russia


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## tranquilium

Schutz said:


> The news here probably has vastly more coverage of Palestine than in China my friend.



Well, I watch both Chinese news and US news. The Palestinians gets about the same cover in both US and China.



mike2000 said:


> No surprise here. China of course will normally side/favour Russia, giving their current relations/partnership against 'U.S/western imperialism'.
> What I would like to see is indias position. It is a big country as well and has been eagerly seeking a permanent UNSC membership for a while now. It should know that wiith this position comes grear responsibilities which I dont think India is mature or strong enough yet to take sides/make decisive decisions. So I dont see the use of a permanent role for it at this moment in time.
> I also recently read that some russian origin vietnamese missiles were intercepted in finland. Dont knoe how credible is this news. But if it waa real then its obvious that russia is using its little partner vietnam to ship weapons to ukraine seperatists. It will be interesting to see U.S/E.U response to this against Russia (don't think vietnam will be affected much since its a small country with no real threar/power to make us worry, so the blame will be directed at Moscow IMO).
> It will be interesting though to see how this crisis will play out and how the U.S/E.U will react to further fighting/escalation in ukraine



The Chinese news pretty much just calls for thorough investigation before assigning blame. It is actually the same response with the MH370 crash.


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## Viet

Andrei Ragofski said:


> Our relationship with Vietnam is simply business because Vietnam willing to buy Russian weapon. Russia can use Vietnam to project it's own power in the Pacific. (Remember we don't have military base in China)
> Russia and China are strategic partners not brothers in arm. Russia cooperate with China to deter Yankee hegemony


Pls elaborate a bit, how do you want Vietnam to project power in the Pacific considering the weakness of our navy?

But hey You are welcome to fund our military build-up.


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## Brutas

Andrei Ragofski said:


> Our relationship with Vietnam is simply business because Vietnam willing to buy Russian weapon. Russia can use Vietnam to project it's own power in the Pacific. (Remember we don't have military base in China)
> Russia and China are strategic partners not brothers in arm. Russia cooperate with China to deter Yankee hegemony



Tomy(Anglo)-Yankee hegemony will continue to dominate the world in the foreseeable future. Simple reason being, they control world's monitory network/policy. As long as Dollar remains almighty, Anglo-Yankee alliance will rule the world !


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## Cossack25A1

Isn't there an informal alliance already in existence; the Shanghai Cooperation Organization whose aims is mostly on economic cooperation though the countries belonging to SCO has some cooperation in the fields of security?


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## Viet

Cossack25A1 said:


> Isn't there an informal alliance already in existence; the Shanghai Cooperation Organization whose aims is mostly on economic cooperation though the countries belonging to SCO has some cooperation in the fields of security?


No, not really except the US led alliance in Asia . The Chinese work on the dream of building a close military tie with the Russians, with the goal of a military alliance. Now that dream is burst. Do you know why? There's something most Chinese don't understand. It's more than just sharing the same enemies and strategic goals.

It fails because one of the most important ingredients is missing between in the China and Russia relationship: trust.

A military alliance requires a total trust between the parties. If you are brothers in arms, you are sure of full support of your comrade in an event of a confrontation.

Can Russia trust China? No.

Can Japan trust America? Yes.
Can Germany rely on US led NATO if the country is under attack of a hostile enemy? Yes.

Japan knows America will keep the promise to come to help if Japan is attacked by a enemy for instance China. Should in one day Japan and Germany have the feeling that America is reluctant to keep the treaty, the consequences will be dramatic.

Trust is the basis for everything. Any relationship without trust is doomed to fail.

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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> No, not really except the US led alliance in Asia . The Chinese work on the dream of building a close military tie with the Russians, with the goal of a military alliance. Now that dream is burst. Do you know why? There's something most Chinese don't understand. It's more than just sharing the same enemies and strategic goals.
> 
> It fails because one of the most important ingredients is missing between in the China and Russia relationship: trust.
> 
> A military alliance requires a total trust between the parties. If you are brothers in arms, you are sure of full support of your comrade in an event of a confrontation.
> 
> Can Russia trust China? No.
> 
> Can Japan trust America? Yes.
> Can Germany rely on US led NATO if the country is under attack of a hostile enemy? Yes.
> 
> Japan knows America will keep the promise to come to help if Japan is attacked by a enemy for instance China. Should in one day Japan and Germany have the feeling that America is reluctant to keep the treaty, the consequences will be dramatic.




Ich stimme mit Ihnen, mein Freund!


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## Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Ich stimme mit Ihnen, mein Freund!


Wir können uns duzen


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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> Wir können uns duzen



ha ha ha, mein deutsche ist "rusty".


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## Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> ha ha ha, mein deutsche ist "rusty".


"mein Deutsch ist angerostet" 

you know what?

I want to add one point: becoming partner of a alliance is more than who has more money. China has more money, so China is better suitable. You can clearly see it by many comments of Chinese members here on PDF. they love to insult Vietnam and her people as banana, monkey, poor, backward, bride exporting country, etc... to cheepen our country and people. one famous example is the clown Raphael.



Raphael said:


> A military alliance was never on the cards. It doesn't change the fact that China-Russia cooperation completely dwarfs cooperation with any others, including banana-exporting hookers who have very little else to offer.


I have reported you to the mod. moron.

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## Cossack25A1

Viet said:


> No, not really except the US led alliance in Asia . The Chinese work on the dream of building a close military tie with the Russians, with the goal of a military alliance. Now that dream is burst. Do you know why? There's something most Chinese don't understand. It's more than just sharing the same enemies and strategic goals.
> 
> It fails because one of the most important ingredients is missing between in the China and Russia relationship: trust.
> 
> A military alliance requires a total trust between the parties. If you are brothers in arms, you are sure of full support of your comrade in an event of a confrontation.
> 
> Can Russia trust China? No.
> 
> Can Japan trust America? Yes.
> Can Germany rely on US led NATO if the country is under attack of a hostile enemy? Yes.
> 
> Japan knows America will keep the promise to come to help if Japan is attacked by a enemy for instance China. Should in one day Japan and Germany have the feeling that America is reluctant to keep the treaty, the consequences will be dramatic.
> 
> Trust is the basis for everything. Any relationship without trust is doomed to fail.



An informal alliance is better as it removes the burden being dedicated to a war specially if we are going to look at what happened to NATO when the War on Terror began back in 2001 although if I my history correctly, NATO was created to counter the Soviet Union and later the Warsaw Pact and was supposed to be dissolved when the Soviet Union collapsed.


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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> I want to add one point: becoming partner of a alliance is more than who has more money. China has more money, so China is better suitable. You can clearly see it by many comments of Chinese members here on PDF. they love to insult Vietnam and her people as banana, monkey, poor, backward, bride exporting country, etc... to cheepen our country and people. one famous example is the clown Raphael.



Some of the crass comments a few of them make are hurtful and does nothing but paint a bad image of China. But we should objectively remember that they do not represent all Chinese people, and Chinese mentality. I know that there are very good , kind Chinese. Thank goodness i actually have a Chinese best friend in my work/study. 

In regards to some posters here who have nothing good to do but share hurtful comments, its best to "ignore" them. Works wonders, too. 

See you around, my friend. 

PS. How's life in Germany for you?


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## Viet

Cossack25A1 said:


> An informal alliance is better as it removes the burden being dedicated to a war specially if we are going to look at what happened to NATO when the War on Terror began back in 2001 although if I my history correctly, NATO was created to counter the Soviet Union and later the Warsaw Pact and was supposed to be dissolved when the Soviet Union collapsed.


No, not true. the NATO never has intention to dissolve itself. Moreover, it is expanding.

the NATO defence was proved as very successful to counter the thread of the Soviet Union. America was fully committed to defend Western Europe including providing nuclear umbrella. the Soviets knew, any nuclear strike on Western hemisphere would result in a nuclear retaliation. So I just wonder about Chinese speculation, that America would sit idle if they attack Japan. I am pretty sure, if China launches nuclear strike on Japan, America will retaliate with nukes. Chinese should not risk to put Chinese civilisation on the poker´s table.

Today countries close to Russia such as Poland and the baltic states rely on NATO.


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## Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Some of the crass comments a few of them make are hurtful and does nothing but paint a bad image of China. But we should objectively remember that they do not represent all Chinese people, and Chinese mentality. I know that there are very good , kind Chinese. Thank goodness i actually have a Chinese best friend in my work/study.
> 
> In regards to some posters here who have nothing good to do but share hurtful comments, its best to "ignore" them. Works wonders, too.
> 
> See you around, my friend.
> 
> PS. How's life in Germany for you?


I am ok my friend.

In general I have a favourable view on China and Chinese people. what I dislike is arrogance and aggression.
I have Chinese in the family: an uncle coming from Hainan island, a aunt from Chinatown, a study friend from Shanghai, a beautiful female piano teacher from Taiwan. my wife attends a chinese teaching class.

life in Germany is ok but boring. the weather has rooms for improvement.

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## Echo_419

Andrei Ragofski said:


> Our relationship with Vietnam is simply business because Vietnam willing to buy Russian weapon. Russia can use Vietnam to project it's own power in the Pacific. (Remember we don't have military base in China)
> Russia and China are strategic partners not brothers in arm. Russia cooperate with China to deter Yankee hegemony


Hey there Commrade,Since you are a new member you should Introduce yourself in this Section 
Members Introduction



Viet said:


> No, not really except the US led alliance in Asia . The Chinese work on the dream of building a close military tie with the Russians, with the goal of a military alliance. Now that dream is burst. Do you know why? There's something most Chinese don't understand. It's more than just sharing the same enemies and strategic goals.
> 
> It fails because one of the most important ingredients is missing between in the China and Russia relationship: trust.
> 
> A military alliance requires a total trust between the parties. If you are brothers in arms, you are sure of full support of your comrade in an event of a confrontation.
> 
> Can Russia trust China? No.
> 
> Can Japan trust America? Yes.
> Can Germany rely on US led NATO if the country is under attack of a hostile enemy? Yes.
> 
> Japan knows America will keep the promise to come to help if Japan is attacked by a enemy for instance China. Should in one day Japan and Germany have the feeling that America is reluctant to keep the treaty, the consequences will be dramatic.
> 
> *Trust is the basis for everything. Any relationship without trust is doomed to fail.*



That's what Told me GF when i found here cheating on me,I am not sure if that works on countries though



Viet said:


> "mein Deutsch ist angerostet"
> 
> you know what?
> 
> I want to add one point: becoming partner of a alliance is more than who has more money. China has more money, so China is better suitable. You can clearly see it by many comments of Chinese members here on PDF. they love to insult Vietnam and her people as banana, monkey, poor, backward, bride exporting country, etc... to cheepen our country and people. one famous example is the clown Raphael.
> 
> 
> I have reported you to the mod. moron.



You forgot to Add Low-IQ Subhumans,Seriously what's with the IQ thing


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## Zsari

Cossack25A1 said:


> An informal alliance is better as it removes the burden being dedicated to a war specially if we are going to look at what happened to NATO when the War on Terror began back in 2001 although if I my history correctly, NATO was created to counter the Soviet Union and later the Warsaw Pact and was supposed to be dissolved when the Soviet Union collapsed.



China and Russia shares one strategic interest, that is to counter balance the US. As to local conflicts, either China nor Russia needs or wants the other to get involved. In the South China Sea for example, China doesn't want any other major power to be there, US or Russia.


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## sincity

Viet said:


> No, not really except the US led alliance in Asia . The Chinese work on the dream of building a close military tie with the Russians, with the goal of a military alliance. Now that dream is burst. Do you know why? There's something most Chinese don't understand. It's more than just sharing the same enemies and strategic goals.
> 
> It fails because one of the most important ingredients is missing between in the China and Russia relationship: trust.
> 
> A military alliance requires a total trust between the parties. If you are brothers in arms, you are sure of full support of your comrade in an event of a confrontation.
> 
> Can Russia trust China? No.
> 
> Can Japan trust America? Yes.
> Can Germany rely on US led NATO if the country is under attack of a hostile enemy? Yes.
> 
> Japan knows America will keep the promise to come to help if Japan is attacked by a enemy for instance China. Should in one day Japan and Germany have the feeling that America is reluctant to keep the treaty, the consequences will be dramatic.
> 
> Trust is the basis for everything. Any relationship without trust is doomed to fail.







Japan unconditional surrendered to the US in WW2, US military force still occupied Japan after WW2, Japan barred from having a traditional military force, the country has maintained only a Self Defense Force (SDF), the mission of which has been to protect the Japanese mainland. Even within these limitations, the SDF has performed a paramilitary, logistical role, supporting U.S. troops based in Japan in exchange for promises of protection. Japan just an extension of US empire in East Asia. US military completely call the shot in Japan military doctrine. Japan doesn't trust US but has no other choice because of US totally dominant over Japan military. So your reason for US and Japan military alliance base on trust completely false.

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## Aepsilons

sincity said:


> Japan doesn't trust US but has no other choice because of US totally dominant over Japan military.



Absolutely incorrect. We trust the United States than any other partner in the world. The rest of your post reflects your bias , and definitely your affiliation to sino nationalism. Than and the quality of your previous posts leaves one to subjectively analyze your content.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Viet said:


> No, not really except the US led alliance in Asia . The Chinese work on the dream of building a close military tie with the Russians, with the goal of a military alliance. Now that dream is burst. Do you know why? There's something most Chinese don't understand. It's more than just sharing the same enemies and strategic goals.
> 
> It fails because one of the most important ingredients is missing between in the China and Russia relationship: trust.
> 
> A military alliance requires a total trust between the parties. If you are brothers in arms, you are sure of full support of your comrade in an event of a confrontation.
> 
> Can Russia trust China? No.
> 
> Can Japan trust America? Yes.
> Can Germany rely on US led NATO if the country is under attack of a hostile enemy? Yes.
> 
> Japan knows America will keep the promise to come to help if Japan is attacked by a enemy for instance China. Should in one day Japan and Germany have the feeling that America is reluctant to keep the treaty, the consequences will be dramatic.
> 
> Trust is the basis for everything. Any relationship without trust is doomed to fail.


 
Lol Vietnamese's theory about "trust", look how we sold you guys out after Vietnam war simply because we didnt' trust you...you're just a disposible ally  and tell us which nation trust Vietnam nowaday? you guys are nothing but a laugh stoke.

There is no permanent friends nor enemies only permanent interest: China don't need Russia's trust when both of us are facing the same threat..it become so obvious and natural that it is in our interest to cooperate...this is beyong you Vietnamese to understand.

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## sincity

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Absolutely incorrect. We trust the United States than any other partner in the world. The rest of your post reflects your bias , and definitely your affiliation to sino nationalism. Than and the quality of your previous posts leaves one to subjectively analyze your content.





US won't support Japan in a war of aggression against other nation, US will provide protection if Japan under attack because Japan fall under the US military umbrella in East Asia. US and Japan military alliance not base on mutual trust or mutual interest but base on the US military dominant over Japan by the end of WW2. I'm not a Chinese citizen why should I want to promote sino nationalism?


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## Kyle Sun

Ru and China are too big to get very close to each other.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Absolutely incorrect. We trust the United States than any other partner in the world. The rest of your post reflects your bias , and definitely your affiliation to sino nationalism. Than and the quality of your previous posts leaves one to subjectively analyze your content.


 
Lol you trust US?  you're such a good political liar, you said that because you need American's backing against China but at the bottom of your heart, you surely know what you want to say after they nuked Japan and ruined Japanese's dream to be the dominant nation in WW2.

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## Aepsilons

sincity said:


> US won't support Japan in a war of aggression against other nation, US will provide protection if Japan under attack because Japan fall under the US military umbrella in East Asia. US and Japan military alliance not base on mutual trust or mutual interest but base on the US military dominant over Japan by the end of WW2. I'm not a Chinese citizen why should I want to promote sino nationalism?



And you represent the United States Government, and command the power of perception of United States geopolicy. Or , pardon me, dictate policy. 



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol you trust US?  you're such a good political liar, you said that because you need American's backing against China but at the bottom of your heart, you surely know what you want to say after they nuked Japan and ruined Japanese's dream to be the dominant nation in WW2.



Liar? Political? Come now, no need to sink to the level of insults , nor resort to prehensile superciliousness. 

Would that I remind you that since the end of WWII, geopolicy is rather transparent amongst aligned nations.


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## Hypersonicmissiles

Japanese military sucks. They won't last 1 week against the PLA. The US was crushed in the Korean war by China so the US has zero chance to beat China now.


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## yusheng

Kyle Sun said:


> Ru and China are too big to get very close to each other.


 
not really.

in fact CN and RU are military alliance if you read SCO items carefully and analysing the details & purposes of CN-RU jointed drills on the sea and on the land.

the reason that both sides did not declare the military alliance is that for the time being, it is not necessary and no need to provocation. a treaty of military alliance between CN and RU may limited the diplomatic space, for instance, if CN conflicted with JAP, RU had to involve if there were a military alliance treaty, and CN had to involve if RU conflicted with Ukran. and that is why NATO refused the Georgia and Ukran to take party in.

however, the above does not exclude that there will be some kind of military alliance of CN and RU if the outside threat is too big that CN and RU has to cope with by military alliance.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Liar? Political? Come now, no need to sink to the level of insults , nor resort to prehensile superciliousness. Would that I remind you that since the end of WWII, geopolicy is rather transparent amongst aligned nations.


 
Yes lie and politic are unseperable, you certainly know how to play this game. And I admire you for your coolness despite of alot of flame bait.

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## sincity

Nihonjin1051 said:


> And you represent the United States Government, and command the power of perception of United States geopolicy. Or , pardon me, dictate policy.




US geopolitic first and foremost to uphold the interest of the US worldwide. Can you rebuttal what I stated is untrue? can Japan buy oil and invest in Russia without US agreement after the Ukraine crisis? Can Japan independently not sanction Russia with US forcefully objection to the idea? US literally dictate Japan in term of conducting military and foreign policy.

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## Aepsilons

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Yes lie and politic are unseperable, you certainly know how to play this game. And I admire you for your coolness despite of alot of flame bait.



They both are , actually, _separable_-- when in regards to the context of a sovereign nation's interests and vantage point. In the case of Japan's position regarding Russia and Japan's sanctioning of key individuals -- it is to address our concerns of the Russian Government's position in causing destabilization in that geographic proximity. Japan's has also been compelled to take this action due to the incongruous movement of international inspectors to the MH17 crash site, and the contumacious communique between the Russia/ Ukrainian separatists and the International inspectors.



sincity said:


> US geopolitic first and foremost to uphold the interest of the US worldwide. Can you rebuttal what I stated is untrue? can Japan buy oil and invest in Russia without US agreement after the Ukraine crisis? Can Japan independently not sanction Russia with US forcefully objection to the idea? US literally dictate Japan in term of conducting military and foreign policy.



I must insist my apprehension about you. Then again, the quality of your post history speaks volumes of your contribution, and how other posters should view your _commentary_.


Kind Regards,


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## sincity

Nihonjin1051 said:


> They both are , actually, _inseparable _-- when in regards to the context of a sovereign nation's interests and vantage point. In the case of Japan's position regarding Russia and Japan's sanctioning of key individuals -- it is to address our concerns of the Russian Government's position in causing destabilization in that geographic proximity. Japan's decision has also been compelled to take this action due to the incongruous movement of international inspectors to the MH17 crash site, and the contumacious communique between the Russia/ Ukrainian separatists and the International inspectors.
> 
> 
> 
> I must insist my apprehension about you. Then again, the quality of your post history speaks volumes of your contribution, and how other posters should view your _commentary_.
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,






How anyone view me on a internet forum won't change my opinion on the subject I want to post. If I have an opinion, I will post it even it don't agree with most other poster opinion in here.


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## BoQ77

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Japanese military sucks. They won't last 1 week against the PLA. *The US was crushed in the Korean war by China so the US has zero chance to beat China now.*



poor argument.


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## Aepsilons




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## IsaacNewton

Russia and China are both powerful countries, probably the most powerful after USA.

They don't need each other as allies and don't want each other as allies. China does not want to get involved with Russia vs EU on Ukraine, and Russia does not want to get involved with China and ASEAN on SCS. 

China and Russia are simply strategic partners. They try their best to not create dispute between themselves. 

They avoid calling out each other in the international stage about issues like Crimea, SCS, and they try to avoid exerting influence on area that they have mutual interest in (Central Asia), and occasionally, they team up together against USA and her allies in UN.


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## Zsari

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Yes lie and politic are unseperable, you certainly know how to play this game. And I admire you for your coolness despite of alot of flame bait.



For someone who is trying to spin for Japan, he is doing pretty good a job. Unfortunately, his fondness of imperial Japan & its military "achievements" are beginning to slip out. Looks like we have just another ultra-nationalist who is looking for its past glory.


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## Avik274

ouch!Who will believe Chinese except some of its puppets!!they steal from everywhere!!


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## ComradeNam

Russia China military alliance is only in Chinese's dream. The reality Russian look down on Chinese with racist attitude. 

There is no military alliance for countries border with each other . There's only rivals, master and slave, master and servant, boss and follower. The military alliance of countries border with each other only happen when they have to fight for survival against superior force and when there is no threat they will resume to position where they were.

The Chinese is so easy to forget it was Russia split Mongol out of Qing Empire, it was Russia took Manchuria from Qing Empire, It was Russia supply Vietnam with weapons to destroy Chinese pawn Khmer Rouge and slap on Chinese face in 1979 border war, it was Russia threaten Chinese with nukes. What made the Chinese seek uncle Sam for help when Mao Zeadong met Nixon? to deal with what? Vietnam or Russia?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

ComradeNam said:


> Russia China military alliance is only in Chinese's dream. The reality Russian look down on Chinese with racist attitude.
> 
> There is no military alliance for countries border with each other . There's only rivals, master and slave, master and servant, boss and follower. The military alliance of countries border with each other only happen when they have to fight for survival against superior force and when there is no threat they will resume to position where they were.
> 
> The Chinese is so easy to forget it was Russia split Mongol out of Qing Empire, it was Russia took Manchuria from Qing Empire, It was Russia supply Vietnam with weapons to destroy Chinese pawn Khmer Rouge and slap on Chinese face in 1979 border war, it was Russia threaten Chinese with nukes. What made the Chinese seek uncle Sam for help when Mao Zeadong met Nixon? to deal with what? Vietnam or Russia?


 

@NiceGuy #2, , we have heard these the XXX times, and let me have the honor to answer you since you're new here and you will get used with us the Evils Chineses  : yes we have some differences in the pass with Soviet but we have also to look foward to solve our present threat and future problems...you viets are just narrow minded couldn't see the great picture.

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## xesy

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> @NiceGuy #2, , we have heard these the XXX times, and let me have the honor to answer you since you're new here and you will get used with us the Evils Chineses  : yes we have some differences in the pass with Soviet but we have also to look foward to solve our present threat and future problems...you viets are just narrow minded couldn't see the great picture.


@ComradeNam is surely a becoming police officer, of course he is a nationalist. He just joined PDF so cut him some slacks, will you? And don't lump us all together like that. Each of us have different POVs and may not share the same ideas over matters.

To @ComradeNam : Welcome to PDF, where both VNese and Chinese are trolling the sh!t out of each other. You should make firend with @NiceGuy as you two are very extreme nationalists.


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## ComradeNam

The great picture is Russia's petroleum's operating in Vietnam's EEZ under Vietnam terms of which within China's claim 9-dash line. The great picture is Russia is helping Vietnam modernize Vietnam military and supply Vietnam with weapons to fight against China's aggression, of course with a small fee.

Which means Russian dont respect what Chinese think or do. If Russia is China's ally it must respect China's claim already, but does it really support China's claim? No.

What is more in the great picture Chinese want to see? 

Hell, even Russian themselves stated it is none sense to have China-Russia alliance, still many Chinese in here wishing thinking.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

xesy said:


> @ComradeNam is surely a becoming police officer, of course he is a nationalist.* He just joined PDF so cut him some slacks, will you?* And don't lump us all together like that. Each of us have different POVs and may not share the same ideas over matters.
> 
> To @ComradeNam : Welcome to PDF, where both VNese and Chinese are trolling the sh!t out of each other. You should make firend with @NiceGuy as you two are very extreme nationalists.


 
Dont worry I will take care of him preciously


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## Aepsilons

An alliance between China and Russian Federation is improbable and impractical as they both have geopolitical interests. In fact, both are competitors for sphere of interest in Central Asia as well as in the Middle East, South Asia and Africa in regards to military defense sales. They are partners out of necessity. Ergo, the recent energy pact Russia had with China was due to the European sanctioning of Russia due to the debacle in Ukraine. Russia, out of financial necessity, had turned to China to offset this. Both still are tense in regards to territorial frontiers.

Russia will remain non-aligned. As she has defense sales partners that have known territorial qualms with China. Ergo, Viet Nam, India.

The talks of a Russian - China alliance is as unrealistic as Japan wishing an Imperialist foreign policy.


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## T-123456

Nihonjin1051 said:


> An alliance between China and Russian Federation is improbable and impractical as they both have geopolitical interests. In fact, both are competitors for sphere of interest in Central Asia as well as in the Middle East, South Asia and Africa in regards to military defense sales. They are partners out of necessity. Ergo, the recent energy pact Russia had with China was due to the European sanctioning of Russia due to the debacle in Ukraine. Russia, out of financial necessity, had turned to China to offset this. Both still are tense in regards to territorial frontiers.
> 
> Russia will remain non-aligned. As she has defense sales partners that have known territorial qualms with China. Ergo, Viet Nam, India.
> 
> The talks of a Russian - China alliance is as unrealistic as Japan wishing an Imperialist foreign policy.


You could get a big surprise in the future.


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## terranMarine

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The talks of a Russian - China alliance is as unrealistic as Japan wishing an Imperialist foreign policy.



That settles it Japan will remain US bastard child for the rest of eternity lol


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## AKIRAKUMA

Viet said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha...another delusional dream of chinese is dead
> Time to accept the fact that Russia wants rather a military alliance with us, like the old days between Soviet Union and Vietnam.


Incompetent people only delusional,CCCP is die. Then ,what are the benefits of an alliance with Vietnam?

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## Aepsilons

T-123456 said:


> You could get a big surprise in the future.



I remain conservative in this.



terranMarine said:


> That settles it Japan will remain US bastard child for the rest of eternity lol



That is your subjective opinion, dear. The Art of Diplomacy is to bide time and find a position of strength.





Viet said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha...another delusional dream of chinese is dead
> Time to accept the fact that Russia wants rather a military alliance with us, like the old days between Soviet Union and Vietnam.



Let's be practical, dear. Russia will remain non-aligned. Their foreign policy depends on a 'Russia-First' initiative. Others are client partners.


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## terranMarine

Nihonjin1051 said:


> That is your subjective opinion, dear. The Art of Diplomacy is to bide time and find a position of strength.


But i thought i was just putting it in a simple form of what you just said


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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> I am ok my friend.
> 
> In general I have a favourable view on China and Chinese people. what I dislike is arrogance and aggression.
> I have Chinese in the family: an uncle coming from Hainan island, a aunt from Chinatown, a study friend from Shanghai, a beautiful female piano teacher from Taiwan. my wife attends a chinese teaching class.
> 
> life in Germany is ok but boring. the weather has rooms for improvement.



I agree. One must divorce personal relationships / personal friendships with political and national interests. Good to see that you have strong filial links to China. Hopefully the summers in Germany aren't too hot! 

See you around, _tomodachi_.


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## Jlaw

Kyle Sun said:


> Ru and China are too big to get very close to each other.



Russia and China are alpha males.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> An alliance between China and Russian Federation is improbable and impractical as they both have geopolitical interests. In fact, both are competitors for sphere of interest in Central Asia as well as in the Middle East, South Asia and Africa in regards to military defense sales. They are partners out of necessity. Ergo, the recent energy pact Russia had with China was due to the European sanctioning of Russia due to the debacle in Ukraine. Russia, out of financial necessity, had turned to China to offset this. Both still are tense in regards to territorial frontiers.
> 
> Russia will remain non-aligned. As she has defense sales partners that have known territorial qualms with China. Ergo, Viet Nam, India.
> 
> The talks of a Russian - China alliance is as unrealistic as Japan wishing an Imperialist foreign policy.


 
China-Russia relation is more as equal partner than a subordinate relation as Japan with US, we have never claimed to be an alliance. At equal partnership we're more interested to find a commun interest and avoid to engage on competing each other to be at the mercy of US.

here few examples of our cooperation wordlwide: In central Asia, China pursue purely economic, oil and gaz while Russia is more about Politic but our commun interest is keep US away from central Asia which gave birth of SCO. In Africa China and Russia cooperate to build dam and do infrastructure project. In Middile Easy we both defend Syria, In South America Xi and Putin went there not to compete but to do business and cozy nations in American's backyard. In South Asia Russia sell arm to India, we sell arm to Pakistan, there again we're not compete each other

China and Russia dont need to form alliance to create fear amount those fragile heart nation and we still get the same effect unofficially.


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## Aepsilons

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China and Russia dont need to form alliance to create fear amount those fragile heart nation and we still get the same effect unofficially.



An alliance between Russia and China does not serve Russia's interest. Russia is non-aligned and actually have differing geopolitical goals with China. So thus they remain energy client partners. 

Thanks.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> An alliance between Russia and China does not serve Russia's interest. Russia is non-aligned and actually have differing geopolitical goals with China. So thus they remain energy client partners.
> 
> Thanks.


 
All depend the development of the international situation, if US is trying to corner Russia and try to push it to the edge of the cliff than you will never know.


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## Aepsilons

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> All depend the development of the international situation, if US is trying* to corner Russia and try to push it to the edge of the cliff* than you will never know.



Objectively analyze the statement you just shared. And ponder to yourself if that would be to China's strategic interest to have a weakened Russia. The art of nation states and the cunning required would surprise you, dear. 

Do consider the competition both Russia and China have given each other over the control of Central Asia, let alone defense competition in the world stage. 

Thanks.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Objectively analyze the statement you just shared. And ponder to yourself if that *would be to China's strategic interest to have a weakened Russia*. The art of nation states and the cunning required would surprise you, dear.
> 
> Do consider the competition both Russia and China have given each other over the control of Central Asia, let alone defense competition in the world stage.
> 
> Thanks.


 
A weak Russia will serve more EU and US interest which might be used against China, as how US use Japan, we rather prefer a strong neutral Russia.


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## cirr

*Western Sanctions See Russia Looking to China for Military, Aerospace Components*




Russian-Chinese Trade Contracts

© RIA Novosti. Sergey Guneev

10:12 06/08/2014

MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) - Russian aerospace and military-industrial enterprises will purchase electronic components worth several billion dollars from China, Izvestia reported Wednesday, referencing a source close to Roscosmos, Russia’s Federal Space Agency.

“We do work with the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) … Its institutions have already offered us a few dozen items, representing a direct alternative to, or slight modifications of the elements we will no longer be able to acquire because of the sanctions introduced by the United States,” Izvestia reported.

The newspaper also noted that the Russian aerospace and military industries do not use components produced in China at the moment.

“Over the next two, two-and-a-half years, until Russian manufacturers put the necessary space and military electronic components into production, plans call for the purchase of such items from China amounting to several billion dollars” Izvestia reported, quoting a source, close to Roscosmos.

Citing the source, the newspaper added that that 18 representatives of 12 CASIC institutions engaged in the development and production of electronic components will visit Moscow to take part in a special workshop for Russian manufacturers in August. A parallel workshop will be held in St. Petersburg.

“Establishing large-scale cooperation with Chinese manufacturers could become the first step toward forming a technology alliance involving BRICS member states,” Izvestia reported, quoting Andrei Ionin, chief analyst at GLONASS Union.

On August 1, The European Union and the United States imposed a new set of economic sanctions against Russia, linking it to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. The sanctions are designed to limit access to European capital markets for a number of Russian banks. Earlier, Washington had slapped sanctions on several Russian defense industry and energy companies.

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## eazzy

Good. US trying to isolate Russia, reinforce China Russia ties.

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## Echo_419

cirr said:


> *Western Sanctions See Russia Looking to China for Military, Aerospace Components*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian-Chinese Trade Contracts
> 
> © RIA Novosti. Sergey Guneev
> 
> 10:12 06/08/2014
> 
> MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) - Russian aerospace and military-industrial enterprises will purchase electronic components worth several billion dollars from China, Izvestia reported Wednesday, referencing a source close to Roscosmos, Russia’s Federal Space Agency.
> 
> “We do work with the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) … Its institutions have already offered us a few dozen items, representing a direct alternative to, or slight modifications of the elements we will no longer be able to acquire because of the sanctions introduced by the United States,” Izvestia reported.
> 
> The newspaper also noted that the Russian aerospace and military industries do not use components produced in China at the moment.
> 
> “Over the next two, two-and-a-half years, until Russian manufacturers put the necessary space and military electronic components into production, plans call for the purchase of such items from China amounting to several billion dollars” Izvestia reported, quoting a source, close to Roscosmos.
> 
> Citing the source, the newspaper added that that 18 representatives of 12 CASIC institutions engaged in the development and production of electronic components will visit Moscow to take part in a special workshop for Russian manufacturers in August. A parallel workshop will be held in St. Petersburg.
> 
> “Establishing large-scale cooperation with Chinese manufacturers could become the first step toward forming a technology alliance involving BRICS member states,” Izvestia reported, quoting Andrei Ionin, chief analyst at GLONASS Union.
> 
> On August 1, The European Union and the United States imposed a new set of economic sanctions against Russia, linking it to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. The sanctions are designed to limit access to European capital markets for a number of Russian banks. Earlier, Washington had slapped sanctions on several Russian defense industry and energy companies.



Looks like US-Russia sanction war is benefiting the Chinese most


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## Götterdämmerung

Echo_419 said:


> Looks like US-Russia sanction war is benefiting the Chinese most



And the only loser will be us thanks to our spineless puppet politicians. The US successfully put a wedge between us and our neighbour without giving us a better alternative in all aspects, no alternative market, not alternative source of energy, no nothing but a poisoned neighbourhood for decades to come.

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## Echo_419

Götterdämmerung said:


> And the only loser will be us thanks to our spineless puppet politicians. The US successfully put a wedge between us and our neighbour without giving us a better alternative in all aspects, no alternative market, not alternative source of energy, no nothing but a poisoned neighbourhood for decades to come.



well you can still be happy that your fooking Germany,the Industrial Giant of Europe & the leader of EU,Russia can't possibly ignore you.You will find a way to make up with the russkies


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## Götterdämmerung

Echo_419 said:


> well you can still be happy that your fooking Germany,the Industrial Giant of Europe & the leader of EU,Russia can't possibly ignore you.You will find a way to make up with the russkies




Why do you call my country fooking? 

With the current spineless leaders (vicious tongues say Merkel and Gauck is Honecker's revenge) there is no way to mend our relationship with Russia.

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## Echo_419

Götterdämmerung said:


> current spineless leaders (vicious tongues say Merkel and Gauck is Honecker's revenge) there is no way to mend our relationship with Russia.



Forgive me,i should rephrase my comment.What i meant was that you can still be happy that you are Germany.Fooking or Fu*king as the original word goes is not always used as a abuse,For eg Fu*k yeah i won the game [this doesn't means **** the game but rather to express how happy you are that you have won the game]

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## Daniel808

*The lesson comes too late for the United States, but there it is: after the US abandoned its military base and its foreign policy influence in Iceland in 2006, both Russia and China are now showing how keen they are to fill the void and take advantage of the growing strategic importance of the island nation at the edge of the Arctic Circle.*

It is more than just tiny Iceland’s rich fisheries and potential undersea mineral wealth that is attracting both the largest country in the world and the most populous.

I*n April last year, China agreed a free trade deal with Iceland, an independent nation of 320,000 people which refuses to join the European Union, the first such deal signed with any European state.

Meanwhile Beijing has been less keen to lock up a free trade deal with the EU, allowing negotiations pushed by Brussels to stall.

One thing driving the Chinese to get friendly with Iceland is the warming of Arctic waters. A thaw in the ice looks set to open what would the shortest sea route from Chinese factories to European ports, over the top of Russia.

In September last year, the 19,000 tonne Yong Sheng, the first Chinese ship to transit the Northeast Passage, completed her voyage, which the Financial Times called "historic…many hope that the Yong Sheng’s voyage presages a new era for the global shipping industry."

The two week voyage took half the time of the traditional southerly route from Busan, in South Korea, to Rotterdam.

This new Asian trade route makes Iceland look less far-north and more dead-strategic.*

Now Russia has now signalled it, too, means bussiness in Iceland. President Putin’s government has appointed its most high-powered Arctic affairs specialist as ambassador to Reykjavik. Anton Vasiliev, a foreign ministry heavy-weight with a PhD in Economics from the USSR Academy of Sciences. He speaks Chinese, English and French. He has a CV heavy with nuclear disarmament negotiations along with experience in China and a posting to the United Nations. He was Russia’s most senior official at the Arctic Council from 2008 until his appointment to Reykjavik.

The Arctic Council, as Breitbart London reported earlier this month, is the organisation which brings together the eight nations with sovereign territory in the resource-rich Arctic region. The council is currently the target of French demands that the EU seize influence on the council, demands that are likely to fail because the council is dominated by Russia, the US and Canada.

Other members are Iceland, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, which includes Greenland and the Faroe Islands.

So the EU is looking shut out of the Arctic, as the US is looking shut out of Iceland.

It didn’t have to be this way for America (Brussels is shut out and deserves to be after its bullying attempts to force Iceland to join the EU).

*Hjörtur J. Guðmundsson, an Icelandic historian and journalist, wrote in February in Alaska Dispatch News: “The aim of the EU and China has in fact been to fill a certain vacuum of influence which was created after the United States military gradually withdrew from Iceland after the Cold War and then finally left in 2006.”*

“Since World War II, Iceland has been considered in an American zone of influence but the withdrawal of the US military has resulted in a number of Icelanders looking more towards other parts of the world for security and support as well as trade.”

“The U.S. military was in Iceland for about six decades as the country continued to serve an important role during the Cold War in keeping an eye on Soviet military activities in the North Atlantic… Today Iceland’s strategic importance is rather economic and geopolitical than from the military point of view.”

Guðmundsson says the Icelandic government “has the policy of seeking stronger ties with the U.S.”

But somehow it is Russia and China who are seeking stronger ties with Iceland. What about America?

Iceland Could Become Russia and China's 'Secret Weapon' Against U.S.








Yes, in the Future Iceland will become more Strategic.
Good Move by China and Russia

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## Aepsilons

Hardly. Iceland is protected by no other than the US Armed Forces, and NATO detachments.


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## Daniel808

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Hardly. Iceland is protected by no other than the US Armed Forces, and NATO detachments.



*Hjörtur J. Guðmundsson, an Icelandic historian and journalist, wrote in February in Alaska Dispatch News: “The aim of the EU and China has in fact been to fill a certain vacuum of influence which was created after the United States military gradually withdrew from Iceland after the Cold War and then finally left in 2006.”*


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## Aepsilons

Daniel808 said:


> *Hjörtur J. Guðmundsson, an Icelandic historian and journalist, wrote in February in Alaska Dispatch News: “The aim of the EU and China has in fact been to fill a certain vacuum of influence which was created after the United States military gradually withdrew from Iceland after the Cold War and then finally left in 2006.”*



Read carefully, dear. Mr. Guomundsson is a historian and journalist. Most probably a paid mouthpiece. Our journalist friend is not speaking in behalf of the Icelandic Government , nor does he know anything about official policy. Mere subjective hearsay. 

Let's refer to official agreements, shall we?


_In 2006 the U.S. announced it would continue to provide for Iceland's defense but without permanently basing forces in the country. That year, Naval Air Station Keflavik closed and the two countries signed a technical agreement on base closure issues (e.g., facilities return, environmental cleanup, residual value) and a "joint understanding" on future bilateral security cooperation (focusing on defending Iceland and the North Atlantic region against emerging threats such as terrorism and trafficking). The United States also worked with local officials to mitigate the impact of job losses at the Air Station, notably by encouraging U.S. investment in industry and tourism development in the Keflavik area. Cooperative activities in the context of the new agreements have included joint search and rescue, disaster surveillance, and maritime interdiction training with U.S. Navy and U.S. Coast Guard units; and U.S. deployments to support the NATO air surveillance mission in Iceland._

*Reference*: Iceland


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## Nike

I love how Tom Clancy describe Iceland's in Red Storm Rising


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## TejasMk3

They already have Cuba in the area, sure one more could help I guess.


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## That Guy

Yeah, I highly doubt that Iceland will let Russia or China take over Icelandic security in any way shape or form.

The day Iceland lets Russian or Chinese military personnel on their Island in any permanent way, is the day their economy collapses.

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## Aepsilons

Currently,

US and Canadian Air Force make regular patrols to protect Iceland's air space. So it is a cooperative role.

Canada defends Iceland, only NATO country without an army | National Post



Canadian Military in Iceland,


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## Beidou2020

Götterdämmerung said:


> And the only loser will be us thanks to our spineless puppet politicians. The US successfully put a wedge between us and our neighbour without giving us a better alternative in all aspects, no alternative market, not alternative source of energy, no nothing but a poisoned neighbourhood for decades to come.



That's what happens when you don't have an independent foreign policy. EU is getting blackmailed by the US. EU is a spineless group.


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## Raphael

Iceland is the most strategically located country in the world. Relations need to be constantly upgraded and taken to new heights.


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## TaiShang

*Russia, China agree more trade currency swaps to bypass dollar*

The Russian and Chinese central banks have agreed a draft currency swap agreement, *which will allow them to increase trade in domestic currencies and cut the dependence on the US dollar in bilateral payments.*

“_The draft document between the Central Bank of Russia and the People’s Bank of China on national currency swaps has been agreed by the parties_,” and is at the stage of formal approval procedures, ITAR-TASS quotes the Russian regulator’s office on Thursday.

*The Russian Central Bank is not giving precise details on the size of the currency swaps, nor when it will be launched. It says this will depend on demand.*

According to the bank, the agreement will serve as an additional instrument for ensuring international financial stability. Also, it will offer the possibility to obtain liquidity in critical situations.

*“The agreement will stimulate further development of direct trade in yuan and rubles on the domestic foreign exchange markets of Russia and China,” *the Russian regulator said.

Currently, over 75 percent of payments in Russia-China trade settlements are made in US dollars, according to Rossiyskaya Gazeta newspaper.

READ MORE: Russian companies ‘de-dollarize’ and switch to yuan, other Asian currencies

In early July, the Central Bank’s chairwoman Elvira Nabiullina said Moscow and Beijing were close to reaching an agreement on conducting swap operations in national currencies to boost trade. The deal was later discussed during her trip to China.

President Vladimir Putin, during his visit to Shanghai in May, said cooperation between Russian and Chinese banks was growing, and the two sides were set to continue developing the financial infrastructure.

“_Work is underway to increase the amount of mutual payments in national currencies, and we intend to consider new financial instruments_,” Putin said after talks with President Xi Jinping.

Later on, during his meeting with leading international news agencies on the sidelines of the St Petersburg’s economic forum, Putin said that Russia and China had made “_the first modest steps_” in using national currencies in international settlements. He added that the two countries were going to continue exploring opportunities for working together.

A currency swap is widely used and allows simultaneously exchanging a specific amount of one currency for another currency with two different settlement dates.

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## meis

It'll take some time, but they're getting there. All hail the new BRICS bank!!


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## Aarush

same is cooking here....

India, Russia look to trade in rupees, roubles | Russia & India Report


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## Europa

Russia’s top university will open a branch in China, in the country’s rapidly developing Shenzhen free economic zone. The building will bring an iconic element of Moscow’s skyline to China.

On Monday, representatives of Lomonosov Moscow State University (MSU), Beijing Institute of Technology and the local administration signed an agreement to create a joint university in Shenzhen. 

The project is aimed at training skilled professionals in China using MSU’s advanced educational programs and standards. 

Those behind the project believe graduates of the new university will be in demand not only in Russia and China, but everywhere around the world. 

The construction of the university facilities, the campus and the operations of the academy will be funded from the Shenzhen budget. 

It’ll be in an area with _“excellent infrastructure and environment,”_ previously used to host the 2011 Summer Universiade, the project’s press-release said.

The new university building will resemble the famous MSU high-riser in Moscow, with elements of Chinese architecture added to it.







Moscow State University will make an intellectual contribution to the project, providing its educational programs, standards and best practices, as well as some of its leading lecturers and professors. 

Lectures, seminars and tutorials at the joint university will be conducted in three languages – Russian, Chinese and English. 

According to an agreement that all the new academy’s students enter, they will be obliged to undertake internships in leading Russian and Chinese companies. 

After completing their education program, graduates will receive two diplomas – one from Moscow State University and one from the joint university. 

_“It’s the first humanitarian project of such scale in Russian-Chinese relations. The creation of a joint university will enhance the reputation of Russian education, help promote Russian language and culture and strengthen Russian-Chinese relations in the humanitarian dimension,”_ the press-release said. 

The university will also provide Russian companies with a platform to present their latest technologies and developments, open research laboratories and trial production in the Shenzhen free economic zone.

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## Europa

A Russian nuclear energy group is researching a project proposed by China to build two nuclear power facilities in Harbin of northeastern Heilongjiang province, according to a statement on the websites of China's Ministry of Commerce.

Russia's National Nuclear Power Group plans to send experts to the proposed sites to investigate, according to the general manager of the company's investment department.

As a nation with rich nuclear experience, Russia would like to strengthen cooperation with China in that sector, said the general manager.


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## Edison Chen

Good move, Shenzhen will be the perfect place for this joint venture university, as Shenzhen is rich but scarce of education resources. Although China already has joint venture university like Duke Kunshan University and New York University, Shanghai, but they are all located in east China, where the higher education resource is too centralized. In South China, the higher education quality is rather weak than the east coast. So Lomonosov Moscow State University, as a great world class university, would do much help to elevate Shenzhen's standard.

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## dlclong




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## TaiShang

Good educational partnership with our friend Russia.

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## Echo_419

Europa said:


> Russia’s top university will open a branch in China, in the country’s rapidly developing Shenzhen free economic zone. The building will bring an iconic element of Moscow’s skyline to China.
> 
> On Monday, representatives of Lomonosov Moscow State University (MSU), Beijing Institute of Technology and the local administration signed an agreement to create a joint university in Shenzhen.
> 
> The project is aimed at training skilled professionals in China using MSU’s advanced educational programs and standards.
> 
> Those behind the project believe graduates of the new university will be in demand not only in Russia and China, but everywhere around the world.
> 
> The construction of the university facilities, the campus and the operations of the academy will be funded from the Shenzhen budget.
> 
> It’ll be in an area with _“excellent infrastructure and environment,”_ previously used to host the 2011 Summer Universiade, the project’s press-release said.
> 
> The new university building will resemble the famous MSU high-riser in Moscow, with elements of Chinese architecture added to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moscow State University will make an intellectual contribution to the project, providing its educational programs, standards and best practices, as well as some of its leading lecturers and professors.
> 
> Lectures, seminars and tutorials at the joint university will be conducted in three languages – Russian, Chinese and English.
> 
> According to an agreement that all the new academy’s students enter, they will be obliged to undertake internships in leading Russian and Chinese companies.
> 
> After completing their education program, graduates will receive two diplomas – one from Moscow State University and one from the joint university.
> 
> _“It’s the first humanitarian project of such scale in Russian-Chinese relations. The creation of a joint university will enhance the reputation of Russian education, help promote Russian language and culture and strengthen Russian-Chinese relations in the humanitarian dimension,”_ the press-release said.
> 
> The university will also provide Russian companies with a platform to present their latest technologies and developments, open research laboratories and trial production in the Shenzhen free economic zone.



Good news,world needs more Schools & Universities rather than Guns & Bombs


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## TaiShang

*China to start direct sales of fruit and vegetables to Russia*
*RT News*

*




*
China will start selling fruit and vegetables directly to Russia, and Baorong company plans to set up a special logistics center in Dongning on the border with Russia’s Far East to do it.

The 70,000 square meter wholesale market and 30,000 square meter warehouse, fitted out with refrigerators and other equipment, will be in a special cross-border customs zone, ITAR-TASS cites the head of the Association of Applied Economy of the Heilongjiang Province Zhang Chunjiao.

“_Direct export of fruit and vegetables to Russia will be organized from it,_" she said.

It will cost $9.7 million to construct. Customs clearance times will be reduced, and there will be no need to double-check the cargo because of video surveillance in the warehouse.

A Chinese company Dili, also intends to create a similar cross-border trade zone by the end of 2014, Zhang Chunjiao added.

The announcement comes after Russia introduced a 1-year ban on imports of some agricultural products from the EU, US, Australia, Canada, Australia and Norway last week. If it lasts, it could cost European Union members $16 billion, Vygaudas Usackas, the EU ambassador to Russia, estimated.

On Thursday the EU is holding a meeting to assess the possible effect of Russia’s sanctions on its farmers.

Member states have already complained their economies would be hit hard, with Germany and Poland losing the most trade with Russia, and the Baltic states – Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia – seeing their shares of GDP falling even sharper.

The ban by Russia was retaliation to Western sanctions imposed over the conflict in Ukraine.





RIA Novosti/Alexandr Kryazhev

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## Europa

*Russia and China forge new nuclear power partnership*
12 August 2014 

*Russia’s state nuclear corporation, Rosatom, has been invited to build two nuclear power plant units in China. *
News of the nuclear cooperation follows the two countries’ historic gas-supply agreement signed by Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin in Shanghai in May this year (pictured).

China also wants to learn from Russia how to build nuclear reactors that float on barges.

Although China is the world leader in nuclear new-build, with 28 reactors under construction last year, it builds plants in coastal areas and lacks expertise in building nuclear stations inland.

According to Russian news agency ITAR-TASS, Russian expertise will help China bring nuclear to its vast interior.

The two new, land-based plants are being considered for the city of Harbin, in northeastern Heilongjiang province, Xinhua reported on Monday.

Gennady Sakharov, deputy director-general of Rosatom, said on Thursday last week that a delegation would soon go to Harbin to assess the construction site, ITAR-TASS reported.

“We have received an offer,” Sakharov said, adding: “this is a new project and there will be two units.”

“We know that the government of China has plans to build nuclear power plants in inner regions that are badly in need of electricity,” said Rosatom chief Sergei Kiriyenko in June this year, according to ITAR-TASS.

“Russia has unique experience and is one of the few countries that have the extensive experience of building and operating nuclear power plants in inner regions of the country. And we are ready to share our experience with our Chinese partners."





Artist’s render of Russia’s floating nuclear power plant, the “Akademik Lomonosov”

In the tally of nuclear projects under construction around the world, China tops the list with 28 while Russia comes a distant second with nine, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

India and South Korea have seven and five under construction respectively, while the US trails with three.

The IAEA says that just over 42% of all nuclear new build in the world is happening right now in China.

The tie-up with Russia signals China’s intention to deepen its commitment to nuclear energy, and its willingness to work with Russia at a time when that country is becoming increasingly isolated from the West over its actions in Ukraine.

ITAR-TASS reported that, also in June, Rusatom Overseas (a branch of Rosatom) and one of China’s top nuclear developers, CNNC New Energy, signed a memorandum of understanding for building floating nuclear power plants.

Russia is leading the approach of putting small reactors on barges. It is currently building a twin-reactor nuclear power plant it calls the “Akademik Lomonosov”, after the 18th Century Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov. Its two reactors, each capable of generating 150 MW of heat and 38.5 MW of electricity, could power a city of 200,000 people, says Russia’s RT.com.

The barge displaces 21,500 tonnes and has to be towed. Its developers say it can withstand earthquakes and terrorist bombs, and would be useful for powering remote settlements or offshore oil and gas facilities.

ITAR-TASS reports that a Chinese delegation travelled to the Floating NPP Training Centre and the Baltic Shipyard – where the “Akademik Lomonosov” is being built – in July.

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## Jlaw

If true that would be good news. 




Europa said:


> The barge displaces 21,500 tonnes and has to be towed. Its developers say it can withstand earthquakes and terrorist bombs



This part is important.

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## Echo_419

Europa said:


> *Russia and China forge new nuclear power partnership*
> 12 August 2014
> 
> *Russia’s state nuclear corporation, Rosatom, has been invited to build two nuclear power plant units in China. *
> News of the nuclear cooperation follows the two countries’ historic gas-supply agreement signed by Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin in Shanghai in May this year (pictured).
> 
> China also wants to learn from Russia how to build nuclear reactors that float on barges.
> 
> Although China is the world leader in nuclear new-build, with 28 reactors under construction last year, it builds plants in coastal areas and lacks expertise in building nuclear stations inland.
> 
> According to Russian news agency ITAR-TASS, Russian expertise will help China bring nuclear to its vast interior.
> 
> The two new, land-based plants are being considered for the city of Harbin, in northeastern Heilongjiang province, Xinhua reported on Monday.
> 
> Gennady Sakharov, deputy director-general of Rosatom, said on Thursday last week that a delegation would soon go to Harbin to assess the construction site, ITAR-TASS reported.
> 
> “We have received an offer,” Sakharov said, adding: “this is a new project and there will be two units.”
> 
> “We know that the government of China has plans to build nuclear power plants in inner regions that are badly in need of electricity,” said Rosatom chief Sergei Kiriyenko in June this year, according to ITAR-TASS.
> 
> “Russia has unique experience and is one of the few countries that have the extensive experience of building and operating nuclear power plants in inner regions of the country. And we are ready to share our experience with our Chinese partners."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist’s render of Russia’s floating nuclear power plant, the “Akademik Lomonosov”
> 
> In the tally of nuclear projects under construction around the world, China tops the list with 28 while Russia comes a distant second with nine, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
> 
> India and South Korea have seven and five under construction respectively, while the US trails with three.
> 
> The IAEA says that just over 42% of all nuclear new build in the world is happening right now in China.
> 
> The tie-up with Russia signals China’s intention to deepen its commitment to nuclear energy, and its willingness to work with Russia at a time when that country is becoming increasingly isolated from the West over its actions in Ukraine.
> 
> ITAR-TASS reported that, also in June, Rusatom Overseas (a branch of Rosatom) and one of China’s top nuclear developers, CNNC New Energy, signed a memorandum of understanding for building floating nuclear power plants.
> 
> Russia is leading the approach of putting small reactors on barges. It is currently building a twin-reactor nuclear power plant it calls the “Akademik Lomonosov”, after the 18th Century Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov. Its two reactors, each capable of generating 150 MW of heat and 38.5 MW of electricity, could power a city of 200,000 people, says Russia’s RT.com.
> 
> The barge displaces 21,500 tonnes and has to be towed. Its developers say it can withstand earthquakes and terrorist bombs, and would be useful for powering remote settlements or offshore oil and gas facilities.
> 
> ITAR-TASS reports that a Chinese delegation travelled to the Floating NPP Training Centre and the Baltic Shipyard – where the “Akademik Lomonosov” is being built – in July.



I just hope that Uranium does not run out


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## Edison Chen

Facing sanctions from the West for its actions in Ukraine earlier this year, including the annexation of Crimea and supporting Ukrainian separatists, Russia will increasingly turn to China for its military and aerospace components. According to a _RIA Novosti_ report citing a Russian-language report by _Izvestia_, *“Russian aerospace and military-industrial enterprises will purchase electronic components worth several billion dollars from China.” The information is based on a source “close to Roscosmos, Russia’s Federal Space Agency.”*

According to the Roscomos source: “[Russia does] work with the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) … Its institutions have already offered us a few dozen items, representing a direct alternative to, or slight modifications of the elements [Russia] will no longer be able to acquire because of the sanctions introduced by the United States.” Currently, Russia’s extensive military and aerospace industries do not source their components in China. “Over the next two, two-and-a-half years, until Russian manufacturers put the necessary space and military electronic components into production, plans call for the purchase of such items from China amounting to several billion dollars,” the source adds.

*Additionally, according to Andrei Ionin, chief analyst at GLONASS Union, “establishing large-scale cooperation with Chinese manufacturers could become the first step toward forming a technology alliance involving BRICS member states.*”

If Russia is indeed looking to China for military and aerospace components, it further signals that the Beijing-Moscow relationship continues to tilt in the former’s favor. The recent $400 billion natural gas deal between the two sides also showed another aspect of the changing dynamics in bilateral relations. Reports suggest that Moscow acquiesced to Beijing’s price demands in order to seal a 30-year deal.

Moreover, while Western sanctions will drive Russia and China closer together, they are not the only reason for the strategic convergence between these two countries. Both Russia and China have increased their cooperation in recent years and work together at international forums, including the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

Under the latest round of E.U. and U.S. sanctions over the ongoing Ukraine conflict, Russian financial institutions, defense firms, and energy companies are increasingly isolated on a global scale.

Following Sanctions, Russia Turns to China for Defense and Aerospace Equipment | The Diplomat

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## senheiser

GCR - Sectors - Russia and China forge new nuclear power partnership August 2014 | By Rod Sweet

*Russia and China forge new nuclear power partnership*
*Russia’s state nuclear corporation, Rosatom, has been invited to build two nuclear power plant units in China. *
News of the nuclear cooperation follows the two countries’ historic gas-supply agreement signed by Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin in Shanghai in May this year (pictured).

China also wants to learn from Russia how to build nuclear reactors that float on barges.

Although China is the world leader in nuclear new-build, with 28 reactors under construction last year, it builds plants in coastal areas and lacks expertise in building nuclear stations inland.

According to Russian news agency ITAR-TASS, Russian expertise will help China bring nuclear to its vast interior.

The two new, land-based plants are being considered for the city of Harbin, in northeastern Heilongjiang province, Xinhua reported on Monday.

Gennady Sakharov, deputy director-general of Rosatom, said on Thursday last week that a delegation would soon go to Harbin to assess the construction site, ITAR-TASS reported.

“We have received an offer,” Sakharov said, adding: “this is a new project and there will be two units.”

“We know that the government of China has plans to build nuclear power plants in inner regions that are badly in need of electricity,” said Rosatom chief Sergei Kiriyenko in June this year, according to ITAR-TASS.

“Russia has unique experience and is one of the few countries that have the extensive experience of building and operating nuclear power plants in inner regions of the country. And we are ready to share our experience with our Chinese partners."





Artist’s render of Russia’s floating nuclear power plant, the “Akademik Lomonosov”

In the tally of nuclear projects under construction around the world, China tops the list with 28 while Russia comes a distant second with nine, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

India and South Korea have seven and five under construction respectively, while the US trails with three.

The IAEA says that just over 42% of all nuclear new build in the world is happening right now in China.

The tie-up with Russia signals China’s intention to deepen its commitment to nuclear energy, and its willingness to work with Russia at a time when that country is becoming increasingly isolated from the West over its actions in Ukraine.

ITAR-TASS reported that, also in June, Rusatom Overseas (a branch of Rosatom) and one of China’s top nuclear developers, CNNC New Energy, signed a memorandum of understanding for building floating nuclear power plants.

Russia is leading the approach of putting small reactors on barges. It is currently building a twin-reactor nuclear power plant it calls the “Akademik Lomonosov”, after the 18th Century Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov. Its two reactors, each capable of generating 150 MW of heat and 38.5 MW of electricity, could power a city of 200,000 people, says Russia’s RT.com.

The barge displaces 21,500 tonnes and has to be towed. Its developers say it can withstandearthquakes and terrorist bombs, and would be useful for powering remote settlements or offshore oil and gas facilities.

ITAR-TASS reports that a Chinese delegation travelled to the Floating NPP Training Centre and the Baltic Shipyard – where the “Akademik Lomonosov” is being built – in July.

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## Echo_419

senheiser said:


> GCR - Sectors - Russia and China forge new nuclear power partnership August 2014 | By Rod Sweet
> 
> *Russia and China forge new nuclear power partnership*
> *Russia’s state nuclear corporation, Rosatom, has been invited to build two nuclear power plant units in China. *
> News of the nuclear cooperation follows the two countries’ historic gas-supply agreement signed by Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin in Shanghai in May this year (pictured).
> 
> China also wants to learn from Russia how to build nuclear reactors that float on barges.
> 
> Although China is the world leader in nuclear new-build, with 28 reactors under construction last year, it builds plants in coastal areas and lacks expertise in building nuclear stations inland.
> 
> According to Russian news agency ITAR-TASS, Russian expertise will help China bring nuclear to its vast interior.
> 
> The two new, land-based plants are being considered for the city of Harbin, in northeastern Heilongjiang province, Xinhua reported on Monday.
> 
> Gennady Sakharov, deputy director-general of Rosatom, said on Thursday last week that a delegation would soon go to Harbin to assess the construction site, ITAR-TASS reported.
> 
> “We have received an offer,” Sakharov said, adding: “this is a new project and there will be two units.”
> 
> “We know that the government of China has plans to build nuclear power plants in inner regions that are badly in need of electricity,” said Rosatom chief Sergei Kiriyenko in June this year, according to ITAR-TASS.
> 
> “Russia has unique experience and is one of the few countries that have the extensive experience of building and operating nuclear power plants in inner regions of the country. And we are ready to share our experience with our Chinese partners."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist’s render of Russia’s floating nuclear power plant, the “Akademik Lomonosov”
> 
> In the tally of nuclear projects under construction around the world, China tops the list with 28 while Russia comes a distant second with nine, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
> 
> India and South Korea have seven and five under construction respectively, while the US trails with three.
> 
> The IAEA says that just over 42% of all nuclear new build in the world is happening right now in China.
> 
> The tie-up with Russia signals China’s intention to deepen its commitment to nuclear energy, and its willingness to work with Russia at a time when that country is becoming increasingly isolated from the West over its actions in Ukraine.
> 
> ITAR-TASS reported that, also in June, Rusatom Overseas (a branch of Rosatom) and one of China’s top nuclear developers, CNNC New Energy, signed a memorandum of understanding for building floating nuclear power plants.
> 
> Russia is leading the approach of putting small reactors on barges. It is currently building a twin-reactor nuclear power plant it calls the “Akademik Lomonosov”, after the 18th Century Russian scientist Mikhail Lomonosov. Its two reactors, each capable of generating 150 MW of heat and 38.5 MW of electricity, could power a city of 200,000 people, says Russia’s RT.com.
> 
> The barge displaces 21,500 tonnes and has to be towed. Its developers say it can withstandearthquakes and terrorist bombs, and would be useful for powering remote settlements or offshore oil and gas facilities.
> 
> ITAR-TASS reports that a Chinese delegation travelled to the Floating NPP Training Centre and the Baltic Shipyard – where the “Akademik Lomonosov” is being built – in July.



Looks like we can push Russia to second position in Number of Reactors under construction,new Govt has given Nuclear power a priority

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## cirr

*Russia launches China UnionPay credit card*

Published time: August 15, 2014 21:29






Reuters / Barry Huang


Forget Visa and MasterCard. After the two American credit system payment companies froze accounts without notice in March, Russia has been looking for an alternative in China UnionPay.

*China UnionPay plans to have 2 million cards in Russia in the next three years.*

Instead of seeing the small Visa and MasterCard logo on credits cards, ATMs, and retail outlets, Russians will start to see the three words “China. Union. Pay.”

*China UnionPay first emerged in 2002 on the domestic Chinese market as an alternative to Visa and MasterCard, but quickly expanded internationally, and now is already number one in terms of quantity of cards in the world.*

Russia’s biggest banks - VTB- Gazprombank, Promsvyazbank, Alfa Bank, MTS, and Rosbank- are already making technical preparations, running tests on Union Bank cards.

_“VTB24 already serves China UnionPay cards in its ATM network and now the bank is in negotiations with this payment system to start acquiring retail merchants,”_ VTB24’s press office said in a statement.






Most banks just began their relationship with China by offering clients corresponding services- none of the bankers imagined that they would be issuing Chinese credit cards.

In March, both Visa and MasterCard blocked the accounts of cardholders at BankRossiya and SMF Bank, both which were sanctioned by the US over Russia’s involvement in Crimea.

Russian financiers who used to keep their assets in dollars and euros were shocked by the event, and moved their capital back to Russia out of fear one day all their assets would be blocked by politicians in Washington DC.

_“Visa and MasterCard have 100 percent trust, but right now, there is no trust in the system, and many, even our clients, have shifted their transactions from American dollar and Euro to Yuan. They are eager to receive this card- we already have a big list of people waiting to get this card instead of MasterCard and Visa,”_ Denis Fonov, Deputy Chairman at LightBank, a small Moscow-based bank, told RT.

LightBank was working with UnionPay long before it knew the cards would be coming to the Russian market - and ordered 10,000 cards pre-emptively as a side service for clients.

As a result of the freeze, Visa and MasterCard will now have to pay a security deposit to Russia’s Central Bank, which is estimated to be billions for each company. Similarly, once UnionPay begins operating in Russia, it will also put down a security deposit with Russia’s Central Bank, about $3-4 billion, Fonov said.






*$5.3 trillion in payments*

There are already 20,000 cards in circulation in Russia, and a second order of 100,000 cards is planned for September. In Russia many banks accept UnionPay cards, but not merchants, that’s the next step.

By the beginning of 2014, the payment system had already issued 4.2 billion cards, mostly in China.

*In terms of total world trade turnover, China UnionPay is the leader in debt cards, with over $5.3 trillion in payments, or about 47 percent of the market share, whereas Visa has 40.6 percent, and MasterCard only 12.2 percent, according to the Nilson Report.

In overall transactions, Visa is still the leader with $4.6 trillion, and China UnionPay comes in second with $2.5 trillion in transactions in the first half of last year.*

UnionPay already successfully operates in Australia and Canada, with their deposits tied to both the local currency and the yuan. In total, UnionPay operates in 142 countries.

China’s UnionPay will be a temporary solution for Russia to detach from the West while it prepares to launch its own payment system, which officially isn’t slated to begin operating for another 16 months, and according to sources in the industry, it could even be 2-3 years out.







larsonarchive.com Glype® proxy

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## TaiShang

West's loss is China's gain. Nice working equation. 

*UnionPay eyes gains in Russian card market*

*



*

With US and EU sanctions against Russia resulting in Visa and MasterCard blocking services, China UnionPay is looking to expand its presence in the Russian market.

The sanctions have been part of the ongoing tussle between Russia and the West over the crisis in Ukraine.

Taking note of that, Russian President Vladimir Putin had announced in March 2014 that Russia would build its own national payment system in a bid to limit its exposure to political risks in the financial system.

*However, analysts expect that system to take a while to get into place. Meanwhile, Chinese giant UnionPay has stepped in to offer services to Russian customers.*

*On July 1, UnionPay International signed an agreement with Russia’s Orient Express Bank to issue the first UnionPay premium credit card in the country. According the media reports, the company is expected to issue 2 million UnionPay cards in Russia in the next three years.*

The Russian card market is dominated by Visa and MasterCard, who together account for around 80 percent of the market share, RIA Novosti reported in June.

In fact, UnionPay’s presence, thus far, is extremely limited. Its cards are accepted by over 100,000 POS terminals and more than 30,000 ATMs, with a total of 45,000 UnionPay cards having been issued, according to information on the company’s website.

However, if global trends are anything to go by, the Chinese giant has shown that it can catch up rather rapidly.

*A 2013 Nilson Report shows that UnionPay dominated the global card market in terms of number of cards in circulation, as of 2012.* In fact, it was the only company that increased its market share, while all others lost out.






Meanwhile, *although UnionPay ranked rather low in terms of total purchase transactions, it had the highest percentage increase as of 2012, up 40.5%.*






Founded 2002, China UnionPay has grown exponentially over the past decade, and has a presence in over 140 countries and regions around the world.

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## Edison Chen

Forget Visa and MasterCard. After the two American credit system payment companies froze accounts without notice in March, Russia has been looking for an alternative in China UnionPay.

*China UnionPay plans to have 2 million cards in Russia in the next three years.*

*Instead of seeing the small Visa and MasterCard logo on credits cards, ATMs, and retail outlets, Russians will start to see the three words “China. Union. Pay.”*

*China UnionPay first emerged in 2002 on the domestic Chinese market as an alternative to Visa and MasterCard, but quickly expanded internationally, and now is already number one in terms of quantity of cards in the world.*

Russia’s biggest banks - VTB- Gazprombank, Promsvyazbank, Alfa Bank, MTS, and Rosbank- are already making technical preparations, running tests on Union Bank cards.

_“VTB24 already serves China UnionPay cards in its ATM network and now the bank is in negotiations with this payment system to start acquiring retail merchants,”_ VTB24’s press office said in a statement.

Most banks just began their relationship with China by offering clients corresponding services- none of the bankers imagined that they would be issuing Chinese credit cards.

In March, both Visa and MasterCard blocked the accounts of cardholders at BankRossiya and SMF Bank, both which were sanctioned by the US over Russia’s involvement in Crimea.

Russian financiers who used to keep their assets in dollars and euros were shocked by the event, and moved their capital back to Russia out of fear one day all their assets would be blocked by politicians in Washington DC.

_“Visa and MasterCard have 100 percent trust, but right now, there is no trust in the system, and many, even our clients, have shifted their transactions from American dollar and Euro to Yuan. They are eager to receive this card- we already have a big list of people waiting to get this card instead of MasterCard and Visa,”_ Denis Fonov, Deputy Chairman at LightBank, a small Moscow-based bank, told RT.

LightBank was working with UnionPay long before it knew the cards would be coming to the Russian market - and ordered 10,000 cards pre-emptively as a side service for clients.

As a result of the freeze, Visa and MasterCard will now have to pay a security deposit to Russia’s Central Bank, which is estimated to be billions for each company. Similarly, once UnionPay begins operating in Russia, it will also put down a security deposit with Russia’s Central Bank, about $3-4 billion, Fonov said.

*$5.3 trillion in payments*
There are already 20,000 cards in circulation in Russia, and a second order of 100,000 cards is planned for September. In Russia many banks accept UnionPay cards, but not merchants, that’s the next step.

By the beginning of 2014, the payment system had already issued 4.2 billion cards, mostly in China.

In terms of total world trade turnover, China UnionPay is the leader in debit cards, with over $5.3 trillion in payments, or about 47 percent of the market share, whereas Visa has 40.6 percent, and MasterCard only 12.2 percent, according to the Nilson Report.

In overall transactions, Visa is still the leader with $4.6 trillion, and China UnionPay comes in second with $2.5 trillion in transactions in the first half of last year.

UnionPay already successfully operates in Australia and Canada, with their deposits tied to both the local currency and the yuan. In total, UnionPay operates in 142 countries.

China’s UnionPay will be a temporary solution for Russia to detach from the West while it prepares to launch its own payment system, which officially isn’t slated to begin operating for another 16 months, and according to sources in the industry, it could even be 2-3 years out.

Russia launches China UnionPay credit card — RT Business

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## Chinese-Dragon

Fantastic news. 

More Sino-Russian economic cooperation is coming in the future, with great opportunities and vast markets for us both.

Payment systems in particular are a vital part of the global financial system. So depending on America for such things will just increase vulnerability to sanctions.

And sanctions are a pretty regular occurrence nowadays, from Iran to Syria to Russia. In fact America still maintains an Arms embargo on China till this day.

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## Kyle Sun

Good!
sell us s500 and T50 and Tu95 /tu160 

We will supply Russia what ever we have.


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## dlclong

Next, with more countries to unite to end dollar hegemony

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## TaiShang

*China hosts largest ever military drill with Russia, other SCO nations*
RT

China’s Inner Mongolia is hosting the biggest military drill ever held by the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The training of 7,000 servicemen from five SCO member states is set to test troops’ effectiveness in fighting terrorism.

*The Peace Mission-2014 drill, being conducted from August 24 to 29 in China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, was declared open by Deputy Chief of Chinese People's Liberation Army's General Staff Wang Ning, who is supervising the military training.*







_Gen. Wang Ning deputy Chief Staff of the People's Liberation Army (AFP Photo / Pool / Alexander F. Yuan)_

The war games have attracted a record number of troops and military hardware, never previously gathered in one place before by the SCO member states.






_Russian Mi-24 helicopters during practical training held as part of the Peace Mission 2013, a Russia-China joint anti-terrorism drill, at the Chebarkul firing range. (RIA Novosti / Pavel Lisitsyn)_

Armed forces from China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia and Tajikistan have come to the Zhurihe firing range to test deploy everything that might be needed to eliminate a considerable terrorist force.






_ Chinese Z9B helicopters and Russian BMP-2 vehicles during practical training held as part of the Peace Mission 2013, a Russia-China joint anti-terrorism drill, at the Chebarkul firing range. (RIA Novosti / Pavel Lisitsyn)_

*Apart from infantry troops and special forces, the international task force has been strengthened with air defense systems, radio-electronic warfare units and aviation.*

The Russian army has come to China with a tactical group of the 36th Motor Rifle Brigade from the Eastern Military District and an aviation wing of the third Command of Air Force and Air Defense Troops.





_Russian servicemen during practical training held as part of the Peace Mission 2013, a Russia-China joint anti-terrorism drill, at the Chebarkul firing range. (RIA Novosti / Pavel Lisitsyn)_

The Russian contingent at Peace Mission-2014 consists of 1,000 plus servicemen, 60 armored vehicles, (including 40 BMP-2 fully amphibious crawling traction infantry combat vehicles), 13 main T-72 battle tanks, more than 20 artillery and missile systems, such as self-propelled artillery SAU 2S3M guns, multiple BM-21 rocket launch systems, more than 60 vehicles of different assignments, 8 Mi-8 AMTSh helicopter gunships, 4 Sukhoi Su-25 assault jets and two Il-76 military transport airplanes.

According to the scenario, the international task force will eliminate terrorist groups in various situations and environments.





_A Type 83 self-propelled gun-howitzer of the People's Liberation Army of China during the Russian-Chinese Peace Mission 2013 anti-terror exercise at the Chebarkul training ground in the Chelyabinsk region. (RIA Novosti / Pavel Lisitsyn)_






_Self-propelled howitzer-gun "Type 83" of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) during the Russian-Chinese anti-terrorist exercises "Peace Mission 2013" on the Chebarkul range in Chelyabinsk region. (RIA Novosti / Vladislav Belogrud)_






_Unloading military equipment for ground units of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) arriving at the railway station in the Chelyabinsk region to take part in the Sino-Russian anti-terrorist exercise "Peace Mission 2013". (RIA Novosti / Vladislav Belogrud)_






_Soldiers of the ground force units of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China march after their arrival in Chebarkul, Chelyabinsk Region, for the joint Russian-Chinese anti-terrorism military exercises "Peace Mission 2013". (RIA Novosti / Vladislav Belogrud)_

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## cnleio

LET'S GET PARTY START ! 

*China PLA Army tanks & IFVs* (WZ-10, ZTZ99A2 MBT, ZBL09 & ZBD04A IFV)




















*Russia Army tanks & IFVs *(T-90 MBT, BMP-2 IFV)

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## cnleio

2014 SOC Troopers coming

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## cnleio

The latest AFT-10 fiber optical guided heavy anti-tank missile appeared at "Peace Mission 2014" SOC. Its max range can be as long as 10km.



















Peace Mission-2014 drill, PLA Army Type05 155mm SPH groups










Peace Mission-2014 drill, PLA Army armed helicopters

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## cnleio

SCO Peace Mission-2014, Food in Canteen

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## Obambam



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## cnleio

Latest ZTZ99A2 MBT (MTU 1,500hp engine) in SCO Peace Mission-2014




















Latest ZBD04A IFV in SCO Peace Mission-2014

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## Superboy

SCO is sort of like NATO, a military alliance.

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## Brutas

Time for SCO to take a more assertive role in the world affairs. Having drill in own backyard is a good beginning but lot more could be done.

SCO should carry out exercise in North American continent with Mexico, Cuba & other countries of Central America to send a message they are the new rising power in the unipolar world. Multi polar world is a need of the time !

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## A1Kaid

cnleio said:


> SCO Peace Mission-2014, Food in Canteen




For many soldiers this is the best part of the military drill.

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## cnleio

PLA GPZ-07 twin 35mm AAG in SCO Peace Mission-2014

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## Chinese-Dragon

So awesome.

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## TaiShang

Brutas said:


> Time for SCO to take a more assertive role in the world affairs. Having drill in own backyard is a good beginning but lot more could be done.
> 
> SCO should carry out exercise in North American continent with Mexico, Cuba & other countries of Central America to send a message they are the new rising power in the unipolar world. Multi polar world is a need of the time !



Agree. I guess the SCO can start assuming a NATO-like role by first expanding into Latin America. Several countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, and Brazil come to mind as a first phase of expansion. 

Further pictures of the drill:

​
The multinational anti-terror drill "Peace Mission 2014" is kicked off by the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) in north China's Inner Mongolia on August 24, 2014. A total of 7,000 troops from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have participated in the drill, including ground and air forces, special operations and airborne troops and others tasked with electronic countermeasures, reconnaissance, mapping and positioning.[Photo/Xinhua]

​
The multinational anti-terror drill "Peace Mission 2014" is kicked off by the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) in north China's Inner Mongolia on August 24, 2014. A total of 7,000 troops from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have participated in the drill, including ground and air forces, special operations and airborne troops and others tasked with electronic countermeasures, reconnaissance, mapping and positioning.[Photo/Xinhua]


​

​








Kazakh troops march in formation during the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) anti-terror drill in north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region on Sunday, August 24, 2014. Troops from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan took part in the drill. [Photo: Chinanews.com]




Kyrgyz troops march in formation during the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) anti-terror drill in north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region on Sunday, August 24, 2014. Troops from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan took part in the drill. [Photo: Chinanews.com]

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## dlclong

cnleio said:


> SCO Peace Mission-2014, Food in Canteen



There have delicious food &drink,wish the soldiers have a good performance


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## navtrek

Soon India and Pakistan will also join

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## Viet

wow...if one believes to this "peace mission". the aim suggests fighting terrorism with helis, tanks, howitzers, and other amored vehicles.
will PLA soon use tanks to attack islamist terrorists and other separatists in Xinjang and Tibet? will their brothers in arms of this club SCO come to help to crush domestic violence and social unrest in China? if so, good night!


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## Gibbs

Wow.. Does SCO have plans to expand towards South Asia ?


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## Chronos

Gibbs said:


> Wow.. Does SCO have plans to expand towards South Asia ?



I am afraid they have a far greater weapon at their disposal

money

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## Gibbs

Ravi Nair said:


> I am afraid they have a far greater weapon at their disposal
> 
> money



I think SCO will be instrumental for a multi polar world.. And regional stability.. If both Pakistan and India could get in to a security alliance

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## Chronos

Gibbs said:


> I think SCO will be instrumental for a multi polar world.. And regional stability.. *If both Pakistan and India could get in to a security alliance*



 good one. I didn't know you were this good as a comedian.


Oh, you were actually serious. Not gonna happen in my lifetime this.


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## Gibbs

Ravi Nair said:


> good one. I didn't know you were this good as a comedian.
> 
> 
> Oh, you were actually serious. Not gonna happen in my lifetime this.



Think about it ? The only reason that holding the region back is the IndoPak relations.. Now SCO could be an ideal platform to iron out differences for a common security block like NATO.. Political establishments of both countries will be pushed to a amicable solution

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## Chronos

Gibbs said:


> Think about it ? The only reason that holding the region back is the IndoPak relations.. Now SCO could be an ideal platform to iron out differences for a common security block like NATO.. Political establishments of both countries will be pushed to a amicable solution



How very dare you! Frienship with the enemy? Over my monkey worshipping, cow urine drinking dead body 

give me some time to think about this. I have to read the articles and form an informed opinion.


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## Gibbs

Ravi Nair said:


> How very dare you! Frienship with the enemy? Over my monkey worshipping, cow urine drinking dead body



Oh C'mon mate.. I know you're being cynic here.. .. But real possibility to finally break through


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## Chronos

Gibbs said:


> Oh C'mon mate.. I know you're being cynic here.. .. But real possibility to finally break through



I think you cannot blame me for being jaded over South Asian geo-politics though. You have to understand where I am coming from


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## faisal6309

navtrek said:


> Soon India and Pakistan will also join


I hope fighting terrorism together may bring both countries more close to each other. This is a need of time and both countries must work with each other for eradication of terrorism from central Asia.

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## yusheng



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## Gibbs

Ravi Nair said:


> I think you cannot blame me for being jaded over South Asian geo-politics though. You have to understand where I am coming from



Pretty much.. But there has not been an precedent like the SCO, The issue had been a political volleyball used by the West time to time for their own geo political agenda in the region..

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## navtrek

faisal6309 said:


> I hope fighting terrorism together may bring both countries more close to each other. This is a need of time and both countries must work with each other for eradication of terrorism from central Asia.



Yes i agree. But looking at how our bilateral relations just revolve around Kashmir i really doubt that we will ever cooperate.
We should make bilateral relations Independent of border dispute and resolve all issues through negotiations.

Cooperation and trade will benefit people on both sides.


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## Chronos

Gibbs said:


> Pretty much.. But there has not been an precedent like the SCO, The issue had been a political volleyball used by the West time to time for their own geo political agenda in the region..



also this being a defence forum, I am pretty weak in defence matters. I am a person however who acts as a constant pundit on economic development, urban development, social development. I have read extensively on this.

On matters that lie outside the boundary of my comprehension I usually employ humor to mask my ignorance on the subject.

so do not take my cynicism all that seriously.



faisal6309 said:


> I hope fighting terrorism together may bring both countries more close to each other. This is a need of time and both countries must work with each other for eradication of terrorism from central Asia.



Brother! Give me a E-embrace my Pakistani brother


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## Gibbs

Ravi Nair said:


> also this being a defence forum, I am pretty weak in defence matters. I am a person however who acts as a constant pundit on economic development, urban development, social development. I have read extensively on this.
> 
> On matters that lie outside the boundary of my comprehension I usually employ humor to mask my ignorance on the subject.
> 
> so do not take my cynicism all that seriously.



I dont..

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## faisal6309

navtrek said:


> Yes i agree. But looking at how our bilateral relations just revolve around Kashmir i really doubt that we will ever cooperate.
> We should make bilateral relations Independent of border dispute and resolve all issues through negotiations.
> 
> Cooperation and trade will benefit people on both sides.


Both countries know that no one is going to get full Kashmir. If you ask Kashmiris whether they want to go with Pakistan or India, they will say that they want their own country and don't want to integrate with both of us.

Second thing is that, both countries have some negative elements in them which are not allowing us to negotiate on many issues. Don't know much about the source of hate toward Pakistan in India but in Pakistan it is because of illiterate religious people.

We should eradicate such elements so no one brain wash our people and hence we live in peace. This is must for both countries because we are 1000 years behind western countries and fighting will not bring any good to both countries. I hope our future SCO membership help to bring peace in south Asia.



Ravi Nair said:


> Brother! Give me a E-embrace my Pakistani brother


Nothing will change with this attitude. We have to work hard to make things go in right direction.

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## Chronos

faisal6309 said:


> Both countries know that no one is going to get full Kashmir. If you ask Kashmiris whether they want to go with Pakistan or India, they will say that they want their own country and don't want to integrate with both of us.
> 
> Second thing is that, both countries have some negative elements in them which are not allowing us to negotiate on many issues.* Don't know much about the source of hate toward Pakistan in India *but in Pakistan it is because of illiterate religious people.
> 
> We should eradicate such elements so no one brain wash our people and hence we live in peace. This is must for both countries because we are 1000 years behind western countries and fighting will not bring any good to both countries. I hope our future SCO membership help to bring peace in south Asia.
> 
> 
> Nothing will change with this attitude. We have to work hard to make things go in right direction.



source is religious, but also good old jingoism. I am one of those who advocate less spending on military and more on Indian infrastructure, education etc.

But I also have met with credible counters to my points as well.


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## cirr

Viet said:


> wow...if one believes to this "peace mission". the aim suggests fighting terrorism with helis, tanks, howitzers, and other amored vehicles.
> will PLA soon use tanks to attack islamist terrorists and other separatists in Xinjang and Tibet? will their brothers in arms of this club SCO come to help to crush domestic violence and social unrest in China? if so, good night!



What weapons do you think the Americans are using against the perceived ”terrorists“？

In Afghanistan or any other parts of the world。

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## Chronos

faisal6309 said:


> *Nothing will change with this attitude. We have to work hard to make things go in right direction*.



 

I thought my comment was harmless. Okies


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## faisal6309

Ravi Nair said:


> source is religious, but also good old jingoism. I am one of those who advocate less spending on military and more on Indian infrastructure, education etc.
> 
> But I also have met with credible counters to my points as well.


Both religion don't allow to hate other religions and their followers. That's why I wrote about Illiterate religious people. Everything has its own significance and require less or more spending but I prefer more spending on research and education.

I meet a lot of people criticizing me for what I say, do and believe. I don't care as soon as I am right.

Both sides are corrupt by the way.


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## cirr



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## faisal6309

Ravi Nair said:


> I thought my comment was harmless. Okies


Hehehe.......
I didn't mean to criticize anyone. But in reality, what I said is true. Nothing will change with such attitude with your neighbours. It is not good for peace especially when both are nuclear armed countries. I believe the change will start when one person from any side start thinking positively.

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## xunzi

Viet said:


> wow...if one believes to this "peace mission". the aim suggests fighting terrorism with helis, tanks, howitzers, and other amored vehicles.
> will PLA soon use tanks to attack islamist terrorists and other separatists in Xinjang and Tibet? will their brothers in arms of this club SCO come to help to crush domestic violence and social unrest in China? if so, good night!


Soon the SCO will conquer your jungle. LOL

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## Chronos

faisal6309 said:


> Both religion don't allow to hate other religions and their followers. That's why I wrote about Illiterate religious people. Everything has its own significance and require less or more spending but I prefer more spending on research and education.
> 
> I meet a lot of people criticizing me for what I say, do and believe. I don't care as soon as I am right.
> 
> *Both sides are corrupt by the way*.



no doubt about this. a finel honed skill perfected by Indian and Pakistani politicians to loot the coffers.

They also have mastered how to incite the worst of the people. Bigotry of every stripe.


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## TaiShang

Viet said:


> wow...if one believes to this "peace mission". the aim suggests fighting terrorism with helis, tanks, howitzers, and other amored vehicles.
> will PLA soon use tanks to attack islamist terrorists and other separatists in Xinjang and Tibet? will their brothers in arms of this club SCO come to help to crush domestic violence and social unrest in China? if so, good night!



This is and anti-terrorism exercise whose conceptual framework the US and its lackeys near and far perfectly fit.

Don't you see China is cooking up something real big which your brain cannot fairly comprehend?

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## cirr



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## faisal6309

Ravi Nair said:


> no doubt about this. a finel honed skill perfected by Indian and Pakistani politicians to loot the coffers.
> 
> They also have mastered how to incite the worst of the people. Bigotry of every stripe.


The current politicians have used us again each other to get in power. But it seems like everything will be right as soon as both countries get membership of SCO because other members will force our leadership to solve these matters. But current leadership will not stop looting.

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## cirr



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## Mr.S.Singh

Gibbs said:


> Think about it ? The only reason that holding the region back is the IndoPak relations.. Now SCO could be an ideal platform to iron out differences for a common security block like NATO.. Political establishments of both countries will be pushed to a amicable solution


quite difficult
SCO is currently a show of strength, it hasn't stood upto its founding promise of Economic and military stability, since its inception in 1996, there have been dozens of war in Asia, SCO hasn't interfered to show resistance against the west in any one of hem
SCO hasn't shown interest of taking over secruity of its member observer Afghanistan too
Lets wait and watch how SCO pans out


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## Viet

TaiShang said:


> This is and anti-terrorism exercise whose conceptual framework the US and its lackeys near and far perfectly fit.
> 
> Don't you see China is cooking up something real big which your brain cannot fairly comprehend?


I don´t remember any of US led war games that are called *peaceful anti-terrorism exercises*. only you do.
America and lackeys (as you call it) used to call as the nature is: taking down or crushing the enemies and so on.

people laugh on your wording inventions: peaceful rise and chinese dream when you stage war games


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## TaiShang

Viet said:


> I don´t remember any of US led war games that are called *peaceful anti-terrorism exercises*. only you do.
> America and lackeys (as you call it) used to call as they are: taking down or crushing the enemies and so on.
> 
> people laugh on your wording inventions: peaceful rise and chinese dream




Anti-terrorism drill to ensure peace and security. 

Which part you fail to comprehend? 

US and its lackeys may call it at times "bringing democracy" to Iraq, "removing a bloody dictator" in Libya, "providing military assistance to freedom fighters" in Syria, etc. 

Don't you see? What makes people believe in your argument is directly proportional to your strength.

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## Viet

TaiShang said:


> Anti-terrorism drill to ensure peace and security.
> 
> Which part you fail to comprehend?
> 
> US and its lackeys may call it at times "bringing democracy" to Iraq, "removing a bloody dictator" in Libya, "providing military assistance to freedom fighters" in Syria, etc.
> 
> Don't you see? What makes people believe in your argument is directly proportional to your strength.


nothing wrong with such drills, just I laugh at your wording inventions: peaceful rise, peaceful anti terrorism drill. what next?
peaceful invasion of Japan or Vietnam or Philippines...



xunzi said:


> Soon the SCO will conquer your jungle. LOL


too bad for you. Russia will never give any support in your conflict with Vietnam.


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## xunzi

Viet said:


> too bad for you. Russia will never give any support in your conflict with Vietnam.


Your jungle doesn't have any value to Russia as we prove that in 1979 with Soviet had a mutual defense treaty with you.

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## Viet

xunzi said:


> Your jungle doesn't have any value to Russia as we prove that in 1979 with Soviet had a mutual defense treaty with you.


you are clueless. if the Soviet intervened, they could do it because they had amassed 650,000 men invasion force along the common USSR-China border, thing would have come very ugly. You should know the Soviets had deployed over 400 short and medium range nuclear missiles for a possible nuclear exchange with China. Nobody in the right mind would risk a nuclear winter. Besides, Vietnam was never in danger during the course of war. A war between nuclear weapons states is very unlikely.

So what did the Soviets instead? they started the invasion of Afghanistan.


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## Raphael

Viet said:


> I don´t remember any of US led war games that are called *peaceful anti-terrorism exercises*. only you do.
> America and lackeys (as you call it) used to call as the nature is: taking down or crushing the enemies and so on.
> 
> people laugh on your wording inventions: peaceful rise and chinese dream when you stage war games



The US comes up with far more bullshit titles than ours. The Iraq invasion was initially called *Operation Iraqi Freedom*.

Anyway, all we are doing is dismantling the grotesque current unipolar world order. All reasonable people want to see the emergence of a multipolar world, with power distributed fairly across the world. The only people who want the current monopolized order to endure are its pathetic slaves.

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## AgentOrange

Viet said:


> nothing wrong with such drills, just I laugh at your wording inventions: peaceful rise, peaceful anti terrorism drill. what next?
> peaceful invasion of Japan or Vietnam or Philippines...
> 
> 
> too bad for you. Russia will never give any support in your conflict with Vietnam.



China doesn't really need support in her conflict with Vietnam. If China wants to park an oil rig somewhere or take an island from a bunch of Viets with AKs, China does it. Vietnam retaliates by burning down Taiwanese, Korean, and German factories.

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## cnleio

cirr said:


>


It looks like PLA Army showed all latest weapons & equipments in this military exercise. 
(ZTZ99A2 MBT, ZBD-04A IFV, ZBL-09 IFV, PLZ-05 SPH, PGZ-07 AAG etc)


A clear pic of ZTZ99A2 MBT in "Peace Mission-2014" drill.

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## cnleio

navtrek said:


> Soon India and Pakistan will also join


Yes, soon India and Pakistan will join SOC and "Peace Mission" military exercise together.


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## cnleio

8.22 "Peace Mission-2014" anti-terrorist drill

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## mike2000

Brutas said:


> Time for SCO to take a more assertive role in the world affairs. Having drill in own backyard is a good beginning but lot more could be done.
> 
> SCO should carry out exercise in North American continent with Mexico, Cuba & other countries of Central America to send a message they are the new rising power in the unipolar world. Multi polar world is a need of the time !



ahahahahah, are you joking or being sarcstic bro?


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## cnleio

8.22 "Peace Mission-2014" anti-terrorist drill

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## Aepsilons

cnleio said:


> 8.22 "Peace Mission-2014" anti-terrorist drill




Please Post more pictures of Chinese soldiers during these exercises. Thanks.

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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> ahahahahah, are you joking or being sarcstic bro?


The purpose of SOC, is to protect peace in Middle-Asia and anti-terrorism. The "Peace Mission" military exercises ever held in Russia, China, Kazakhstan and other nations. I think if SOC members growth, maybe it will change the role in the future, SOC as same as the NATO is a regional paramilitary group.

Now the SOC still active in Middle-Asia but soon will accept Pakistan, India and Mongolia as formal members, SOC's members will extend to South-Asia nations.

New members will be India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia. Afghanistan maybe.

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## Aepsilons

*Russian Soldiers in SCO Exercise,*

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## mike2000

cnleio said:


> The purpose of SOC, is to protect peace in Middle-Asia and anti-terrorism. The "Peace Mission" military exercises ever held in Russia, China, Kazakhstan and other nations. I think if SOC members growth, maybe it will change the role in the future, SOC as same as the NATO is a regional paramilitary group.
> 
> Now the SOC still active in Middle-Asia but soon will accept Pakistan, India and Mongolia as formal members, SOC's members will extend to South-Asia nations.



lol accepting Pakistan and India wouldn't change anything. It might even slow things down even more than they are already.
Do you know the enmity these two countries have for each others? It will be another SAARC(which wouldnt be bad for us though). Not talking about the caution/suspicion India has with China. Just look at your BRICS bank issue where the headquarters was hotly contested by India. you people are not even yet into the real deal/internal issue yet and there are already contests. Thats the issue with you Asians you have too much Ego reason you ever be able to challenge us..
These your grouping is at best an anti terrorism platform as your leaders China/Russia confirm nothing more and it will remain that way for forseeable future until one country is clearly too strong enough on all aspect from economic,military to technologically for all the others to accept it as leader just like the U.S leads NATO/G7/west. Until then, all what you say is just wishful thinking/dreams.


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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> lol accepting Pakistan and India wouldn't change anything. It might even slow things down even more than they are already.





mike2000 said:


> Do you know the enmity these two countries have for each others? It will be another SAARC(which wouldnt be bad for us though). Not talking about the caution/suspicion India has with China. Just look at your BRICS bank issue where the headquarters was hotly contested by India. you people are not even yet into the real deal/internal issue yet and there are already contests. Thats the issue with you Asians you have too much Ego reason you ever be able to challenge us..
> These your grouping is at best an anti terrorism platform as your leaders China/Russia confirm nothing more and it will remain that way for forseeable future until one country is clearly too strong enough on all aspect from economic,military to technologically for all the others to accept it as leader just like the U.S leads NATO/G7/west. Until then, all what you say is just wishful thinking/dreams.


*Hehe... SCO to protect regional Peace & Stabilization in Middle-Asia, that's main purpose* coz both Russia and China considered Middle-Asia region as back areas, as same as South-America for U.S. 

After we can make sure Middle-Asia region Peace and Anti-terrorism together, we won't waste our energy and focus on dealing with our problems in the Europe or in Western Pacific.  

Future when India, Pakistan, Iran nations etc become the formal members of SCO, the Peace and anti-terrorism together will extend to South-Asia nations. Anyway the terrorist is the same enemy for all members of SCO, we can work together.

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## Aepsilons

cnleio said:


> After we can make sure Middle-Asia region Peace and Anti-terrorism together, we won't waste our energy and focuse on dealing with our problems in the Europe or in Western Pacific.


Trust me, my friend, NATO is a force that should never be underestimated. It is highly organized, integrated, and backed by a combined GDP of over $30 Trillion.


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## cnleio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Trust me, my friend, NATO is a force that should never be underestimated. It is highly organized, integrated, and backed by a combined GDP of over $30 Trillion.


Yes, i know.

Now they'r Russian problem, China won't let Russia down. We clearly understand it. I think both Chinese and Russian all understand the truth, if one side down another side will be the next.

It's 《三国演义》魏 / 蜀 / 吴. The Winter is best friend for Russian especially in Ukrainian crisis, it is also GOOD for China ! (*In Winter, gas pipeline is the WMD*)

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## cnleio

Air Force preparing for "SCO Peace Mission-2014"

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## Aepsilons

cnleio said:


> Air Force preparing for "SCO Peace Mission-2014"



Looking good, keep the pictures coming.

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## cnleio

8.24 review troops

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## Aepsilons

Very handsome, professional looking men. Salute to them.


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## mike2000

cnleio said:


> *Hehe... SCO to protect regional Peace & Stabilization in Middle-Asia, that's main purpose* coz both Russia and China considered Middle-Asia region as back areas, as same as South-America for U.S.
> 
> After we can make sure Middle-Asia region Peace and Anti-terrorism together, we won't waste our energy and focus on dealing with our problems in the Europe or in Western Pacific.
> 
> Future when India, Pakistan, Iran nations etc become the formal members of SCO, the Peace and anti-terrorism together will extend to South-Asia nations. Anyway the terrorist is the same enemy for all members of SCO, we can work together.



lool seems you also know how to play with words when cornered, like my good friend Nihonji, seems you can also be a good diplomat. kudos.


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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> lool seems you also know how to play with words when cornered, like my good friend Nihonji, seems you can also be a good diplomat. kudos.



PDF diplomats over here, eh?


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## cnleio

PLA Army *WZ-9, WZ-19 and WZ-10* armed helicopters in "Peace Mission-2014" drill



































mike2000 said:


> lool seems you also know how to play with words when cornered, like my good friend Nihonji, seems you can also be a good diplomat. kudos.


I understand myself much more than others, im not a good diplomat or kudo, im just a normal engineer in China. 

When im a young boy,  i love 《三国演义》 and spent years to play 《三国志》 games. Ancient Chinese history teach me, i just find some diplomatic tactics still can used in today world.

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## mike2000

cnleio said:


> PLA Army *WZ-9, WZ-19 and WZ-10* armed helicopters in "Peace Mission-2014" drill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand myself much more than others, im not a good diplomat or kudo, im just a normal engineer in China.
> 
> When im a young boy, i was love 《三国演义》 and spent years to play 《三国志》 games. Ancient Chinese history teach me, some diplomatic tactics still can used in today world.



No wonder i understand now. 
So you are an Engineer bro? Wow thats cool. I admire Engineers alot. Since i was never really good in science/maths.lol
My junior sister is an Engineer(petro chemical) though.

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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> No wonder i understand now.
> So you are an Engineer bro? Wow thats cool. I admire Engineers alot. Since i was never really good in science/maths.lol
> My junior sister is an Engineer(petro chemical) though.


Yes, just do some electronic products and write C codes for 8bit/ 32bit microprocessors like C8051/ AVR/ stm8/ stm32 / ARM CPUs.

Chinese college taught basic engineering skills, the rest from individual learning during work time.

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## Brutas

TaiShang said:


> Agree. I guess the SCO can start assuming a NATO-like role by first expanding into Latin America. Several countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, and Brazil come to mind as a first phase of expansion.



Exactly. Balance of power is a must to *STOP* preemptive unilateral wars worldwide. That will go a long way to pacify extremism !


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## jkroo

cnleio said:


> 8.22 "Peace Mission-2014" anti-terrorist drill


Wait, some of them are female CT forces in these pictures. Just look at their faces.


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## cnleio

China and Russia SPH groups in "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## cnleio

Russian soldiers in "Peace Mission-2014" drill, they bring S-300 air defence system.

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## cnleio

China PLA and Russia Army in "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## cnleio

China PLA soldiers and Russian soldiers in "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## cnleio

Tajikistan soldiers show at the ceremony of "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## Genesis

With this exercises, you can clearly see the difference in Chinese experience and equipment from any previous exercises.

Dedicated attack helicopters, more integrated airforce capable of more missions, more difficult maneuvers, as well as better over all performance.

Waiting for J-20, J-31, new more powerful and reliable Chinese engines, and Z-20, Y-20, as well as a new heavy lift helicopter, which I heard is going to be a improved Chinook, or a similar chinook, heard it's going through renovations in US too.

This is the sector to watch.

In the armor sector, we see information age tanks, "3.5" gen tanks capable of data link and other live information sharing as well as powerful engine, better protection. There's also new APC that have access to the same which greatly enhances combat power.

On the soldier front, we see that elites starting to wear body armor and the rest wearing equipment carrying vests, advanced communication tools, and other new electronic devices.


In terms of tactics, more missions, harder missions, no more scripted, no more obvious targets, more integration, and more representation of the precision warfare.

Also very important, new tactics, and no more exercises to look good, instead, exercises to make you look stupid, so you'll fix things and improve.


Good times, give it 5 more years and we will be ready to go to war with minimal loses, I mean assuming the other country isn't US, or to a lesser extent, far lesser, Japan.

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## cirr

*China's drone blasts off missile in SCO anti-terror drill*



 







 





English.news.cn | 2014-08-26 22:36:01 | Editor: Mu Xuequan

ZHURIHE, Inner Mongolia, Aug. 26 (Xinhua) -- China's military drones participated in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) anti-terror drills in Inner Mongolia for the first time on Tuesday.

Participating in the live fire drills, the drone, who's model was unidentified, shot off several missiles during the rehearsal, said Shen Jinke, spokesman of China Air force.

"The drone, tasked with surveillance, reconnaissance and ground attacks, will play a vital role in fighting against terrorism," he said.

The aerial vehicle has yet to miss a shot since joining the "Peace Mission 2014" multinational drill which began on Aug. 24, said Feng Aiwang, commander of the air force battle group.

More than 19 different models made up a group of 70 aircraft dispatched for the drill. These included fighter planes, early warning aircraft and armed helicopters, Feng added.

China's homemade WZ-10 and WZ-19 armed helicopters were deployed to practice reconnaissance and rocket barrage tests in the exercise, which concludes Friday.

A total of 7,000 troops from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have participated in the drill, including ground and air forces, special operations and airborne troops as well as several supporting roles.

Founded in Shanghai in 2001, the SCO includes China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Afghanistan, India, Iran, Mongolia and Pakistan are observers. Belarus, Turkey and Sri Lanka are dialogue partners.

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## cirr



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## sweetgrape

99 Tank





T-72B

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## cirr

cirr said:


> *China's drone blasts off missile in SCO anti-terror drill*
> 
> English.news.cn | 2014-08-26 22:36:01 | Editor: Mu Xuequan
> 
> ZHURIHE, Inner Mongolia, Aug. 26 (Xinhua) -- China's military drones participated in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) anti-terror drills in Inner Mongolia for the first time on Tuesday.
> 
> Participating in the live fire drills, the drone, who's model was unidentified, shot off several missiles during the rehearsal, said Shen Jinke, spokesman of China Air force.
> 
> "The drone, tasked with surveillance, reconnaissance and ground attacks, will play a vital role in fighting against terrorism," he said.
> 
> The aerial vehicle has yet to miss a shot since joining the "Peace Mission 2014" multinational drill which began on Aug. 24, said Feng Aiwang, commander of the air force battle group.
> 
> More than 19 different models made up a group of 70 aircraft dispatched for the drill. These included fighter planes, early warning aircraft and armed helicopters, Feng added.
> 
> China's homemade WZ-10 and WZ-19 armed helicopters were deployed to practice reconnaissance and rocket barrage tests in the exercise, which concludes Friday.
> 
> A total of 7,000 troops from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have participated in the drill, including ground and air forces, special operations and airborne troops as well as several supporting roles.
> 
> Founded in Shanghai in 2001, the SCO includes China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Afghanistan, India, Iran, Mongolia and Pakistan are observers. Belarus, Turkey and Sri Lanka are dialogue partners.

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## cnleio

sweetgrape said:


> 99 Tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-72B


MTU 1,500 HP engine heart ... Faster !

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## cnleio

8.21 China PLA and Kazakhstan Airborne troopers work together in "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## cnleio

8.21 China PLA and Kazakhstan Airborne troopers work together in "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## Star Wars

This is an Anti terror drill ?  This looks more like a full fledged military exercise against a well armed opponent

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## Genesis

Star Wars said:


> This is an Anti terror drill ?  This looks more like a full fledged military exercise against a well armed opponent



Is IS and a few other African insurgencies terror groups or not? This is targeted at that.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

cnleio said:


> 8.21 China PLA and Kazakhstan Airborne troopers work together in "Peace Mission-2014" drill



OMG!

That dude on the right looks like me! Even the same hair!


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## Star Wars

Genesis said:


> Is IS and a few other African insurgencies terror groups or not? This is targeted at that.



Why do you need S-300's against IS ? the whole against terrorists is a very convenient excuse . This is against a well armed opponent there is nothing wrong with that so no need to get defensive ...


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## Genesis

Star Wars said:


> Why do you need S-300's against IS ? the whole against terrorists is a very convenient excuse . This is against a well armed opponent there is nothing wrong with that so no need to get defensive ...


not defensive, I thought that at first too.

But then I thought, IS does exist, and terror isn't just guys with bombs, they got armor, or Toyota loaded with a anti air gun.

S-300 is explained to be against drones that the terror groups may or may not have.

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## Star Wars

Genesis said:


> not defensive, I thought that at first too.
> 
> But then I thought, IS does exist, and terror isn't just guys with bombs, they got armor, or Toyota loaded with a anti air gun.
> 
> S-300 is explained to be against drones that the terror groups may or may not have.



I very much Doubt it , Russia and China are flexing their muscles and i really doubt this exercise is aimed at terrorists ...


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## cnleio

Star Wars said:


> I very much Doubt it , Russia and China are flexing their muscles and i really doubt this exercise is aimed at terrorists ...


“State Terrorism” is also the terrorism to threat Regional Peace.

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## cnleio

China's "Fort Hood Military Base", PLA's Zhurihe Training Base for "Peace Mission-2014" drill






















Zhurihe Training Base, China’s Inner Mongolia

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## mike2000

cirr said:


>



I like this one. which drone is this? How many operational attack/missile carrying drones/UCAV does China have at the moment? 
I know its not easy to produce an operational UCAV, only 6 countries or so in the world operate one and which has been exported/proven as far as i know.



sweetgrape said:


> 99 Tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T-72B



Wow the first tank is super fast, is it a Russian tank or chinese?



Star Wars said:


> This is an Anti terror drill ?  This looks more like a full fledged military exercise against a well armed opponent



I was about to say the same thing. lol


----------



## nvKyleBrown

TejasMk3 said:


> They already have Cuba in the area, sure one more could help I guess.


What area? Cuba is to Iceland as India is to Kamchatka. That is, 4000 miles (6000 km) away.

Cuba - Iceland is about the same as India - UK, only with more Canada in-between (direct route runs over Newfoundland, Canada)



Raphael said:


> Iceland is the most strategically located country in the world. Relations need to be constantly upgraded and taken to new heights.


I think Iceland saw American regular troops leaving as an upgrade in the relationship (generally demilitarizing the island). I don't expect they want someone else's troops instead. Doesn't fit with a "leave us alone" philosophy, and neither China nor Russia have a track record of leaving when asked (as the US actually did in Iceland). See Crimea, Tibet.


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## terranMarine

mike2000 said:


> I like this one. which drone is this?
> Wow the first tank is super fast, is it a Russian tank or chinese?


 lol sweetgrape already mentioned it's T-99 , what do you think?
The UAV is called pterodactyl


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## Genesis

Star Wars said:


> I very much Doubt it , Russia and China are flexing their muscles and i really doubt this exercise is aimed at terrorists ...


ok, what's your solution to tackling IS? Or even your Maoists? Sending police?


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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> Wow the first tank is super fast, is it a Russian tank or chinese?


The fast rabbit is China new ZTZ99A2 MBT with Made in China MTU licenced 1,500HP engine, as same as Germany MT883 engine and China CH-1000 gearing system.








CH-1000 hydraulic gearing system for China ZTZ99A2 MBT

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## C130

Brutas said:


> Time for SCO to take a more assertive role in the world affairs. Having drill in own backyard is a good beginning but lot more could be done.
> 
> SCO should carry out exercise in North American continent with Mexico, Cuba & other countries of Central America to send a message they are the new rising power in the unipolar world. Multi polar world is a need of the time !



hooooooooo...that sounds interesting.
quaking in our boots.
long as you stay on your side of the yard don't think we would mind too much.

nice military hardware and training btw.

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## cnleio

Zhurihe Trainning Base & City CQB trainning base





City CQB trainning base








I found there's a Iron tower of Ai Fu Er copy near CQB trainning Base ...


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## terranMarine

paris

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## aliaselin

cnleio said:


> The fast rabbit is China new ZTZ99A2 MBT with Made in China MTU licenced 1,500HP engine, as same as Germany MT883 engine and China CH-1000 gearing system.


New 150 is not licensed MTU883


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## cnleio

aliaselin said:


> New 150 is not licensed MTU883


MTU883 engine = 1,200 HP, ZTZ99A2's engine developed by MTU883 = 1,500 HP.

I knew they r different engines, i mean 2x powerful >1,000HP engines.


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## Jlaw

mike2000 said:


> lol accepting Pakistan and India wouldn't change anything. It might even slow things down even more than they are already.
> Do you know the enmity these two countries have for each others? It will be another SAARC(which wouldnt be bad for us though). Not talking about the caution/suspicion India has with China. Just look at your BRICS bank issue where the headquarters was hotly contested by India. you people are not even yet into the real deal/internal issue yet and there are already contests. Thats the issue with you Asians you have too much Ego reason you ever be able to challenge us..
> These your grouping is at best an anti terrorism platform as your leaders China/Russia confirm nothing more and it will remain that way for forseeable future until one country is clearly too strong enough on all aspect from economic,military to technologically for all the others to accept it as leader just like the U.S leads NATO/G7/west. Until then, all what you say is just wishful thinking/dreams.


Don't laugh too hard. In the early 80s, Deng said something that scared your Iron lady pm at the time that made her stumble on the stairs. That was a weak China against world power Britain.


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## Genesis

cnleio said:


> Zhurihe Trainning Base & City CQB trainning base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City CQB trainning base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found there's a Iron tower of Ai Fu Er copy near CQB trainning Base ...



According to the Philippines we are the Nazis, so maybe Xi and the top generals should also do a photo op here. 






I mean it just wouldn't look as cool if it was 





or this





but his makes it look like we conquered Greece.


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## cnleio

"Peace Mission-2014" drill in Russian photos

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## cnleio

Genesis said:


> According to the Philippines we are the Nazis, so maybe Xi and the top generals should also do a photo op here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean it just wouldn't look as cool if it was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this
> View attachment 45284
> 
> 
> but his makes it look like we conquered Greece.


It's the communication tower of Zhuri he trainning base, but i have no idea why they built like Eiffel Tower ... maybe next time drill we can invite French Army join and visit it. 

CQB on the Iron Tower !

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## Genesis

cnleio said:


> It's the communication tower of Zhuri he trainning base, but i have no idea why they built like Eiffel Tower ... maybe next time drill we can invite French Army join and visit it.
> 
> CQB on the Iron Tower !


if we invite the French, we got a "real" Paris down south. No need for this. I mean Xi can take the HSR and get there in like 4 hours.

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## cnleio

Genesis said:


> if we invite the French, we got a "real" Paris down south. No need for this. I mean Xi can take the HSR and get there in like 4 hours.


Let's stop the JOKE, we know something is impossible to happen. Just for funny !

The Zhurihe trainning base is a big & international military base, it's 100% Okay to invite foreign Army like French to join the game. Trainning with different foreign soldiers, it's GOOD for PLA.


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## cnleio

"Peace Mission-2014" drill in Russian photos

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## Genesis

cnleio said:


> Let's stop the JOKE, we know something is impossible to happen. Just for funny !
> 
> The Zhurihe trainning base is a big & international military base, it's 100% Okay to invite foreign Army like French to join the game. Trainning with different foreign soldiers, it's GOOD for PLA.



Be way better if we can invite the Brits, French or Mericans, they got real combat experience with modern weapons. 

I think the most likely might be French. 

Either way, yea these exercises do help, Russia is still a military power, probably.


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## cnleio

Genesis said:


> Be way better if we can invite the Brits, French or Mericans, they got real combat experience with modern weapons.
> 
> I think the most likely might be French.
> 
> Either way, yea these exercises do help, Russia is still a military power, probably.


French has more chance, in Europe we have good relationship since 1950s and France exported techs to China more than other nations.


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## cnleio

Chinese journalist and Kazakhstan soldiers in BTR-80

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## VelocuR

I bet, SCO training will be stronger in 10 years from now, they are still learning and good progress.

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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> I like this one. which drone is this? How many operational attack/missile carrying drones/UCAV does China have at the moment?
> I know its not easy to produce an operational UCAV, only 6 countries or so in the world operate one and which has been exported/proven as far as i know.


I think China is one of 6 countries which can produce an far-distance operational UCAV.  China UCAV numbers is not clear, we even didn't know the name of new UCAV.

Wing Loong-I










Other China UAVs (some maybe testing)

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## cnleio

@mike2000

Other China UAVs 



























This China stealth attack drone not out yet ...






China UCAV produce lines

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## cnleio

PLA Army's mini-UAVs 

x



l

xx





xxx










DIY UAV

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## mike2000

cnleio said:


> I think China one of 6 countries which can produce an far-distance operational UCAV.  China UCAV numbers is not clear, we even didn't know the name of new UCAV.
> 
> Wing Loong-I
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other China UAVs (some maybe testing)




I like the winglong 1 in the first pic. It looks nice. Does it mean there will be further winglong versions as in winglong 2,3etc? 

Well done, didn't know China was making so many different varieties of drones. Kudos.

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## cirr

Tank engine








mike2000 said:


> I like the winglong 1 in the first pic. It looks nice. Does it mean there will be further winglong versions as in winglong 2,3etc?
> 
> Well done, didn't know China was making so many different varieties of drones. Kudos.



A drone show is to be held in the city of Tianjin in a couple of days。

The event should reveal a few interesting stuff。

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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> I like the winglong 1 in the first pic. It looks nice. Does it mean there will be further winglong versions as in winglong 2,3etc?
> 
> Well done, didn't know China was making so many different varieties of drones. Kudos.


For now just Wing Long-1 (Pterodactyl-1) UCAV, only one version of Wing Long for sell.
News reported 2014 China Wing Long-1 exported to Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia, but we didn't see pic yet.

*Chengdu Pterodactyl-I*

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## cnleio

"Peace Mission-2014" drill, PLA Army ZTZ99A2 MBT groups ruch

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## cnleio

8.28 News pics of "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## cirr



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## cnleio

China DoD released clear pics of "Peace Mission-2014" drill , 21 Century PLA Army “向前进！”

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## cnleio

"Peace Mission-2014" drill , PLAAF Airborne

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## cnleio

"Peace Mission-2014" drill , China & Kazakhstan Airborne cooperative combat

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## cnleio

"Peace Mission-2014" drill , China & Kazakhstan Airborne cooperative combat

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## cnleio

China DoD released clear pics of "Peace Mission-2014" drill, SCO Multi-nation Forces cooperative combat.

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## cnleio

China DoD released clear pics of "Peace Mission-2014" drill, SCO Multi-nation Forces cooperative combat.

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## cnleio

China DoD released clear pics of "Peace Mission-2014" drill, SCO Multi-nation Forces cooperative combat.

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## GeHAC

For me，Iceland=dust=CCPgames=EVE Online


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## cirr



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## cirr

An incomplete list of PLA equipments taking part in ”Peace Mission-2014“ joint exercise：

99A
04A
08轮
07高及其系统
新履火
新反坦克导弹及其发射车
05榴
07榴
05迫榴
89火
88b
03伞
04抢
IL-76
Z-10
Z-19
Mi-171
Z-8
J-10
KJ-200
JH-7A
J-11
UCAV
92
89APC

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## cnleio

08.29 SCO "Peace Mission-2014" drill END (08.21 ~ 08.29)

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## cirr

Type 05A 120mm self propelled mortar howitzer


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## yusheng



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## cirr

Type 08 8X8 Sonder-Kraftfahrzeug

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## cnleio

99A2

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## cirr

*China's newest 122mm self-propelled rocket launcher*：

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## cnleio

Russian news, ZTZ99A2 MBT in "Peace Mission-2014" drill

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia to start construction of joint gas pipeline*

YAKUTSK, Russia, Aug. 31 (Xinhua) -- China and Russia are to start construction of a joint natural gas pipeline in Russia's eastern Siberia this weekend, in implementation of a natural gas supply contract signed between the two countries.

*Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli flew in from Moscow to Yakutsk, the capital city of Russia's Sakha (Yakutia) Republic, Sunday evening to attend a start-of-construction ceremony for the Russian part of the East Route of the China-Russia natural gas pipeline.*

Zhang's attendance at the start-of-construction ceremony reflects the importance that the Chinese government attaches to the comprehensive strategic partnership with Russia and its will to expand bilateral cooperation to wider fields and higher levels.

*Pipe-welding will begin on Monday in the Russian part of the East Route of the China-Russia natural gas pipeline, which the Russian side named "Siberia Power" pipeline.*

According to a contract signed under the witness of Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin during their Shanghai meeting in May, the pipeline will transmit 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas every year to China over a period of 30 years starting from 2018.

*The Russian stakeholder of the pipeline Gazprom estimates that total investment in the project could exceed 5 billion U.S. dollars.*

Gazprom Chairman Alexey Miller said Saturday that the gas supply contract was just a good beginning of bilateral cooperation in the field of natural gas.

He said the Russian side is working on implementing the consensus reached by President Putin and President Xi and will undoubtedly build the planned West Route of the natural gas pipeline and export gas to China through it.

The start of construction of the East Route of the China-Russia natural gas pipeline signifies a major step forward in implementing the consensus reached by Xi and Putin.

The Russian part of the pipeline will link the Kovyktin and Chayandin gas fields in Siberia with the eastern port city of Vladivostok, covering a total distance of nearly 4,000 km.

Vice Premier Zhang said the breakthrough on the natural gas project and other large-scale projects helped drive the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership into a new era of development.

Zhang visited Moscow to co-chair the 11th meeting of the China-Russia Energy Cooperation Committee with Russian Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich in Moscow on Saturday.

*Related:*

*China, Russia work on building energy cooperation partnership*

MOSCOW, Aug. 30 (Xinhua) -- China will exert consistent and unswerving efforts to establish a strategic partnership of energy cooperation with Russia as agreed by the heads of state of the two countries, Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli said here Saturday. Full story

*Interview: China-Russia energy cooperation promising: Chinese ambassador*

MOSCOW, Aug. 28 (Xinhua) -- China-Russia cooperation in the energy sector has brought tangible benefits to the two countries and is expected to yield more fruitful results, says Chinese Ambassador to Russia Li Hui.

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## cnleio

Now China 1,500HP(Max 1,650HP) domestic tank engine mass production, *ZTZ99A2 has the powerful heart as same as best West MBT (like Challenger-II, M1A2, Leopard-II A7) and better than 1,200HP West major MBTs. *

 tank engine produce line























SCO "Peace Mission-2014" is a GOOD show. 

ZTZ99A2 fire with 125mm gun

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## Aepsilons

China and Taiwan are both primed to invest heavily in air and missile defense systems in the coming years.

On the one hand, there have been more and more signs that China will become the first foreign customer of Russia’s most advanced anti-missile system, the S-400. China’s People’s Liberation Army already operates the Russian-made S-300 anti-missile system, and Beijing and Moscow have reportedly been negotiating over the S-400 since 2010. These talks have reportedly been slowed by a number of issues, including Russia’s concern that China would reverse-engineer the advanced anti-air and anti-missile system.

As _The Diplomat_ noted back in April, the two sides have reportedly made progress on overcoming these issues this year, and Russian media outlets have reported that Russian President Vladimir Putin has approved in principle the sale of between two and four S-400 air and missile defense systems to China.

This was all but confirmed last month by Sergei Ivanov– formerly, Russia’s defense minister and deputy prime minister, and currently Putin’s chief of staff. Speaking to state media outlets in Russia, Ivanov said “The chances that China may be the first foreign buyer [of S-400s] are high.”

Acquiring S-400s would significantly strengthen China’s missile and air defense capabilities. Paul N. Schwartz, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington, has noted that, “Although it is a derivative of the S-300, the S-400 represents a significant upgrade in nearly all respects.”

Indeed, according to the _South China Morning Post_, “the S-400 can engage up to 36 targets simultaneously with as many as 72 missiles at altitudes of five metres to 30 km.” It also has a range of 400 km, roughly four times the range of the S-300. Moreover, SCMP also notes that the S-400 is capable of engaging nearly all conceivable air threats, including, “tactical and strategic aircraft, ballistic missiles and hypersonic targets such as the U.S.’ F-35 fighter jet.”

No country would be as threatened by China’s acquisition of the S-400 as Taiwan. As _Defense News_ noted earlier this year, “At present, China’s land-based mobile air defense missile systems, HQ-9 and S-300 can reach only a small sliver of northwestern Taiwan….However, with the planned purchase of the 400-kilometer-range Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, China will for the first time have complete air defense coverage of Taiwan.”

Discussing the implications of this for Taiwan’s defense, York Chen, a former member of Taiwan’s National Security Council, told _Defense News_: “When S-400s work together with Chinese land- and sea-based fighters, the Chinese will have more confidence in sustaining airspace dominance over the Taiwan theater, thus depriving any organized resistance by the Taiwan Air Force and deterring the American intervention.”

Taiwan is likely to respond to this is in a number of ways, including pressing the U.S. for F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, ramping up production of cruise missiles, and possibly seeking ballistic missiles. Some have even speculated that Taiwan will forward deploy special operation forces closer to the mainland, who would be tasked with trying to destroy China’s S-400 systems at the beginning of a conflict.

At the same time, Taiwan is also ramping up its own spending on air and missile defense systems to deal with China’s cruise missiles and especially its growing stable of stealth fighters. Taiwan’s Defense Ministry recently submitted a new defense budget to members of parliament. One Taiwanese lawmaker told the press on Saturday that the proposed budget includes a substantial investment to replace Taiwan’s aging Hawk air-to-surface missile defense systems with the much more modern Tien Kung III (Sky Bow III).

Specifically, the Taiwanese Defense Ministry is asking for $2.5 billion between 2015-2024 to replace the Hawk systems with the Sky Bow-3. The lawmaker claimed that this was the largest purchase of a domestically-made system in recent years.

The Sky Bow III should be a substantial upgrade for Taiwan’s defense against China’s ever present cruise missile threat to the island nation. More notably, however, it should help Taiwan cope with the threat posed by China’s emerging J-20 stealth fighter jets. Kao Hua-Chu, Taiwan’s defense minister until last year, told lawmakers in 2011 that the Sky Bow III will be capable of dealing with the J-20 as long as it is equipped with an advance radar system.



China Eyes Russia’s S-400, Taiwan Seeks New Air Defense System | The Diplomat

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## cnleio

This is 2014 SCO's "Anti-Terrorism" military exercise

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## cnleio

This is 2014 SCO's "Anti-Terrorism" military exercise

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## cirr

Next we neeed to form battalions with short-range S2S missiles under GA's artillery division/brigade。

Something in the line of Iskander is a good choice。


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## Aepsilons

Please post more pictures.


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## cnleio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Please post more pictures.


The cool pics always at last

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## Aepsilons

cnleio said:


> The cool pics always at last




Very impressive.

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## yusheng

Video: -- peace mission 2014 live fire exercises


震撼实拍——和平使命2014实弹演习—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

视频: 震撼实拍——和平使命2014实弹演习

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## yusheng

视频: 原声实拍“和平使命2014”上合组织联合军演
Video: joint military drill Soundtrack - "peace mission 2014" SCO

原声实拍“和平使命2014”上合组织联合军演—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

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## cnleio

BRAVO, Good for SCO members

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## TaiShang

*Eurasia Silk Road Fashion Festival opens in Xinjiang*

The Eurasia Silk Road Fashion Festival opened in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region on September 2. (By CCTV.com reporter Zhang Jianfeng)










Hu Kaijiang, Director of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region Economic and Informatization Commission, delivered a speech.(By CCTV.com reporter Zhang Jianfeng)

***

More of these social events are needed to de-radicalize the region and secularize the traditional culture.

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## cirr

*Biggest "Anti-Terrorist" Exercise In The World Stars Chinese Drones, Russian Troops And A Ukraine-Inspired Wargame*

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer

Posted 09.02.2014 at 2:00 pm

Biggest "Anti-Terrorist" Exercise in the World Stars Chinese Drones, Russian Troops and a Ukraine-Inspired Wargame | Popular Science


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## Europa

ITAR-TASS: Non-political - Roscosmos chief discusses plans for GLONASS stations in China


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## mike2000

Geez....we in Europe we need to really speed up our own GPS launches. I still dont understand how we are behind shedule already for 2020 completion. Hopefully we will complete ours before 2020 or so.


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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> Geez....we in Europe we need to really speed up our own GPS launches. I still dont understand how we are behind shedule already for 2020 completion. Hopefully we will complete ours before 2020 or so.



Not only that, we (West & Japan) need to plan for the construction of a new international space station. Pronto !

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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Not only that, we (West & Japan) need to plan for the construction of a new international space station. Pronto !


yes you are right, but then again that isn't feasible for now to be honest, it will require alot of planning, capital, cash and a whole new rocket/vehicle launch system which until now has been relying on russian soyuz. So in short, it wont happen any time soon unfortunately.

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## Götterdämmerung

mike2000 said:


> Geez....we in Europe we need to really speed up our own GPS launches. I still dont understand how we are behind shedule already for 2020 completion. Hopefully we will complete ours before 2020 or so.



Ask your great friend and partner from the other side of the pond why we are behind schedule.

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## terranMarine

Götterdämmerung said:


> Ask your great friend and partner from the other side of the pond why we are behind schedule.


Why is Markus so quiet ?


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## TaiShang

*4th China-Eurasia Expo concludes, 6 bln dollars in foreign trade contracts signed*

The 4th China-Eurasia Expo has concluded in Urumqi on September 6, more than 6 bln U.S. dollars worth of foreign trade contracts signed during the six-day expo.







_The 4th China-Eurasia Expo has concluded in Urumqi on September 6._

Up to September 5, nearly 120 investment and trade promotion activities were held at the expo, increasing 52 percent over the previous expo. The total amount of foreign economic and trade transactions reached 6.086 billion U.S. dollars, increasing nearly 7 percent over the year of 2013. There are 243 inline projects signed concentratedly, with a total contract value of 46.8 billion us.s dollars, 3.5 percent over the previous. The total volume of domestic trade transaction amounted to 28.3 billion U.S. dollars, increasing 4.2 percent over the previous.

The expo also attracted about 23,000 domestic and 5,000 foreign business people and 150,000 audiences.






_The 4th China-Eurasia Expo has concluded in Urumqi on September 6._

The expo opened in Urumqi, capital of northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region on September 1 with the theme of "Opening up and Cooperation for Building Silk Road Economic Belt".






_The 4th China-Eurasia Expo has concluded in Urumqi on September 6._


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## cirr

*Russia’s Rostec, China’s Shenhua to Invest $10 bln in Coal Exploration*





Rostec expects coal production to start in 2019 with an annual output reaching 30 million tons.

© RIA Novosti. Alexander Kryazhev

13:09 07/09/2014

MOSCOW, September 7 (RIA Novosti) - Russian state company Russian Technologies, or Rostec, has signed a $10 billion deal with China’s state-owned Shenhua Group Corp Ltd, the largest producer of coal in the world, to develop coal deposits in Russia’s Siberia and the Far East, Forbes reports.

According to the memorandum of understanding, signed by Sergey Chemezov, Rostec’s CEO, and Yuzhuo Zhang, the chairman of Shenhua Group Corporation, on September 4, the companies will explore and develop the Ogodzhinskoye coal deposit, located in the Amur Region.

Coal reserves at the mine are estimated to be 1.6 billion metric tons. Rostec expects coal production to start in 2019 with an annual output reaching 30 million tons. The commodity will be largely exported to the Asia-Pacific Region, mainly China.

Rostec and Shenhua will also build a marine coal terminal at Port Vera in the Primorsky Territory with annual capacity of 20 million tons. The construction is slated to begin in 2015 and Port Vera will be put into operation in 2018 – 2019.

“The project to construct Port Vera will help implement the development strategy for the Far East and the Russian coal industry. It will greatly expand the access of Russian coal companies to sales markets in the Asia-Pacific region,” said Andrey Korobov, CEO of RT Global Resources, a Rostec subsidiary, according to the statement issued by the Russian state company.

The project also involves constructing a power plant, high-voltage transmission lines to China, as well as social and transport infrastructure.

According to Chemezov, the project will help deal with the issue of power shortages in Russia's Amur Region and China's northern regions and meet the electricity demand of those territories. It is also expected to create around 10,000 new jobs and up to 30,000 jobs in related and associated industries.

“The cooperation with Shenhua is a comprehensive effort to broaden Russia’s energy business in Asia,” Chemezov explained, as quoted by Forbes. Korobov called Chinese companies professional partners that can be relied upon to help implement the most ambitious projects.

The Rostec-Shenhua deal comes at a time of increasing cooperation between Russia and China in the energy sphere. In May, Russia's largest gas exporter Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) signed a historic 30-year agreementworth $400 billion to deliver gas to China.

Russia’s Rostec, China’s Shenhua to Invest $10 bln in Coal Exploration | Business | RIA Novosti

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## cirr

*Russia, China Agree to Invest $10 Billion in Infrastructure Firm*

The Moscow Times

Sep. 05 2014 20:15

Last edited 20:15

*State technology conglomerate Rostec and China's largest engineering firm, Sinomach, have come to a preliminary agreement to invest $10 billion for the creation of a company specializing in infrastructure projects, Rostec said Friday in an emailed statement.*

Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov said collaboration between the two corporations would pave the way for the creation of a "global technological partnership" that will see through complex projects in Russia, Africa, South America and elsewhere.

Chemezov said that a working group be set up to determine the new company's operations, and which projects in particular the investment will be devoted to.

Rostec and Sinomach set up $10bn infrastructure JVNorth Village Media – Information for Investors

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## cirr

*CNPC caught off guard by Russia's invitation to invest in Vankor Field*

Staff Reporter

2014-09-05

10:18 (GMT+8)





A CNPC gas station in Beijing. (File photo/CNS)

China National Petroleum Corporation has been invited to become one of the shareholders of the Vankor Field, the Russian state-owned oil company Rosneft's largest oil and gas field, reports Guangzhou's 21st Century Business Herald.

The invitation came as a surprise to the Chinese oil giant, since its previous proposals to buy shares in Russian oil fields had been repeatedly rejected, according to the report.

Russian president Vladimir Putin extended the invitation to Chinese vice premier Zhang Gaoli after the groundbreaking ceremony of for the Sino-Russian pipeline in Yakutsk, the capital city of Russia's Sakha Republic, which Zhang attended on Sept. 1. The pipeline is expected to transport 5 billion cubic meters of natural gas in 2017 and the amount is expected to rise to 30 billion in the following five years and surge further to 38 billion after another year.

It is yet to be seen whether CNPC will accept the invitation, however. Details such as the percentage and cost of the shares and shareholder rights have yet to be discussed, said a source familiar with diplomatic affairs with Russia.

The oilfield has crude oil reserves that could produce 510,000 barrels per day and has been one of the main sources of the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean oil pipeline.

A CNPC official said the company will put its own interests first, given that its previous proposals were all rejected and in light of the volatile international situation that resulted from Russia's annexation of the Crimean peninsula. Putin said on Sept. 1 that Russia has been cautious about accepting foreign investment, but will not limit Chinese investments since Beijing is considered an ally.

China has attempted to buy shares in the Vankor Field and Rosneft since Russia began developing the oil field in August 2009 but has been repeatedly rejected. Last year Beijing proposed that Russia allow China's sovereign wealth fund, China Investment Corporation, to buy shares in Rosneft, however, Moscow rejected the proposal, citing national security concerns. CNPC has since abandoned plans to buy shares and has offered loans in exchange for Russian oil

One CNPC official had previously speculated that Russia might suddenly offer China shares in the field, due to its demand for foreign funds, as the country's disputes with Ukraine have caused a massive outflow of capital. The Russian ruble's value has declined against the US dollar and the euro and could drop to just 38 rubles against the greenback and 50 rubles against the euro, said experts.

The CNPC official said in his previous comments that even if the company were allowed to be a shareholder in the oilfield, the field's developments would pose many "unfathomable risks." Moscow has "unusual" safety and environmental concerns over foreign funded oilfield developments, some of which are "incomprehensible" to China, he said. Sino-Russian negotiations over an oil pipeline in 2005 fell apart at the last minute, for example, after a Russian environmental group protested on the grounds that the pipeline was too close to Lake Baikal and could hurt the lake's ecosystem.

The Chinese company also has limited cash in hand due to its acquisition of Nexen Energy, which cost US$15 billion. The oil reserves of the company comprise around only two billion barrels, some of which are in oil sands, which makes them more difficult to obtain.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/01ab7166-31f0-11e4-a19b-00144feabdc0.html

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## cirr

*Leaders of China, Russia, Mongolia likely to hold 3-party meeting*

_2014-09-05 09:08

Xinhua Web Editor: Gu Liping_

China and Mongolia are calling for a three-party meeting among presidents of China, Russia and Mongolia in the near future, Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said on Thursday.

The consensus was reached during President Xi Jinping's Mongolia visit last month, Qin told a daily press briefing, adding the three countries are maintaining close communication.

Russian President Vladimir Putin arrived in Ulan Bator Wednesday for a one-day working visit and held talks with his Mongolian counterpart Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj to promote bilateral cooperation.

Both China and Mongolia, Russia and Mongolia are good neighbors and partners linked by mountains and rivers, Qin said, stressing China hopes the development of Russia-Mongolia ties will be conducive to regional peace and stability.

China is willing to work together with Russia and Mongolia to achieve stability and development of the region, he said.

During President Xi's state visit to Mongolia on Aug. 21-22, President Xi and President Elbegdorj signed a joint declaration to upgrade bilateral ties to a comprehensive strategic partnership.

larsonarchive.com Glype® proxy

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## cirr

*China, Russia to build seaport*

11.09.2014 01:11 PM

*China and Russia will build one of the largest ports in northeast Asia on Russia's Sea of Japan coast*, reports said, in a further sign of the powerhouses' growing alliance.

*The seaport is expected to be able to handle some 60 million tonnes of cargo a year*, China's state-run People's Daily Online reported late Wednesday -- comparable to Britain's busiest port Immingham or Le Havre in France, according to European Commission statistics.

*The new facility will be located in far eastern Russia, just 18 kilometres (11 miles) away from the Chinese border*. The region is also close to North Korea.

Chinese and Russian leaders inked a deal on the port at May's Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) in Shanghai, the report said.

The move represents the latest step by Beijing and Moscow to boost their energy and infrastructure ties.

Resource-hungry China is seeking to diversify its sources of energy amid booming domestic consumption, while Russia -- at odds with the West over its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula -- is seeking to refocus its gas and oil exports towards Asia.

Last week, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli attended the groundbreaking of a gas pipeline that will help Russia supply China under a huge energy deal.

After a decade of tough negotiations Chinese and Russian leaders inked a 30-year deal, $400-billion agreement in May that will eventually involve 38 billion cubic metres of gas annually.

"We are today starting the biggest construction project in the world," Putin said at the ceremony outside the Siberian city of Yakutsk.

Zhang said that he hoped the pipeline would be completed within four years.

"China is to devote consistent and unswerving effort to establishing a strategic partnership of energy cooperation with Russia as agreed upon by the heads of state of the two countries," he said, according to China's official Xinhua news agency.

China and Russia will jointly build a large seaport 18 km from the Chinese border | EN NEWS 163

*China*, *Russia* to build *seaport*: report

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## TaiShang

With China and Russia united on economics and security fronts, they will form a one formidable bloc in Eurasia and beyond.

Positive consequences of this has been witnessed during the climax of the Syrian Crisis when the US was hell-bent on bombing yet another defenseless nation.

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## cirr

*China, Russia to build port near DPRK*

_2014-09-11 11:35
Ecns.cn Web Editor: Gu Liping_





(ECNS) -- China and Russia will cooperate to build Russia's Zarubino Port into one of the largest ports in northeast Asia, the People's Daily Online reported on Wednesday.

An ice-free port located on the southern end of Primorsky Krai in Trinity Bay, Zarubino Port is 18 km from the China-Russia border. *Railway route connects the port with Hunchun, a major city of Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture, Northeast China's Jilin province*. The region is also close to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK).

Jilin province and the Summa Group from Russia inked a cooperative agreement about the port at the fourth Conference on Interaction and Confidence-Building Measures in Asia (CICA), held in Shanghai this May.

The Zarubino Port will be able to handle 60 million tons of cargo once construction is finished, according to the deputy president of Summa Group.

The multifunctional port will hugely benefit China and Russia, he said, adding that it is expected to serve as a vital food port for China and Asia, ensuring food security.

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## Europa

ITAR-TASS: World - Putin urges Russia, China and Mongolia to establish trilateral contacts

The natural geographic proximity of Mongolia, Russia and China makes it possible to implement long-term projects in infrastructure, power sector and mining industry, the Russian President says






DUSHANBE, September 11 /ITAR-TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday that Russia, China and Mongolia should establish trilateral contacts to implement joint projects.

“The natural geographic proximity of Mongolia, Russia and China makes it possible for us to implement good long-term projects in infrastructure, the power sector and the mining industry. We have what to discuss with each other. Naturally, we deem it important, expedient and useful to start a permanent dialogue,” Putin said at the start of his meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping and Mongolian President Tsakhiagiyn Elbegdorzh on the sidelines of the SCO summit. Putin praised the roles which China and Mongolia had played in World War II.

Russia and China “received the main blow from German fascism and militaristic Japan,” Putin said, adding that Mongolia had actively helped the Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945). “Russia remembers it,” Putin stressed. “Even though the events of those days took place 70 years ago, they are very close to us today,” Putin said.

President Putin invited the heads of Mongolia and China to visit Moscow to attend the celebrations of the 70th anniversary of victory in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945.

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## Europa

China, Russia will build a seaport that is supposed to become one of the largest seaports in north-eastern Asia.

MOSCOW, September 11 (RIA Novosti) - The People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Russian Federation will build a seaport that is supposed to become one of the largest seaports in north-eastern Asia, AFP reported Thursday.

According to the report issued Wednesday by People's Daily Online, the new seaport will be able to handle about 60 million tons of cargo per year.

The new seaport will be situated on the Russian coast of the Sea of Japan, 18 kilometers (11 miles) away from the Chinese border.

The deal was reportedly signed during the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) in Shanghai held in May, AFP reports.

The construction of the new seaport is one of the steps recently taken by the two countries aimed at establishing strategic energy cooperation. In October, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping are scheduled to attend the China-Russia Energy Cooperation Committee's summit, as reported by the BRICS Post.

China wants to diversify its energy sources, while Russia is trying to refocus its gas and oil exports towards Asia.

On May 21, Russia and China agreed on a long-term gas supply contract in Shanghai, after years of talks on the deal, worth billions of dollars. Russia's gas major Gazprom and the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) signed a contract of purchase and sale of natural gas deliveries through the eastern route.

China, Russia to Build Seaport in Sea of Japan: Report | World | RIA Novosti

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## Raphael

Mongol leader is so short! Very unexpected.


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## Snomannen

Raphael said:


> Mongol leader is so short! Very unexpected.



Good to see 包子 is the tallest of them.


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## Tractor

Russian want to exploit mines in Mongolia while itself is rich in natural resources.
The Russian had already robbed almost every good things from Mongolia including Lake Baikal,the Mongolian should ask Putin to give it back.


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## TaiShang

*Why would China complain? Russia-West confrontation is a strategic blessing for China. Not that the West can really mess with Russia, but, the whole saga takes a lot of pressure off China.*

*****

*West's antics pushing Russia closer to China*

The recent NATO summit in Wales, held against the background of the armed conflict in Ukraine, has brought back the Cold War atmosphere to Europe. NATO's partnership with Russia remains formally suspended. In fact, NATO is treating Russia more as an adversary than a partner.

The alliance is setting up a "Rapid Reaction Force" to deal with emergencies on Europe's eastern flank. The alliance's military infrastructure is moving toward that exposed flank, and closer to Russia's borders. NATO forces will now spend more time exercising in the east, and their presence there will visibly grow. NATO-leaning Ukraine, which the alliance alleges is an object of "Russian aggression", has been promised financial and military support.

*The Ukraine crisis is not just about Eastern Europe, it is also about the world order. The Kremlin is seeking Washington's recognition of what it regards as its core national security interest: keeping Ukraine as a buffer zone between Russia and the West, particularly NATO. Washington, on principle, denies Moscow this "imperial privilege", and insists on the freedom of all countries, including Ukraine, to choose alliances and affiliations.*

The stakes are high. Should Russia be rolled back in Ukraine, not only will its international position materially suffer, but also the power of the Kremlin inside the country might be dangerously undermined. On the other hand, if the US were to eventually accept Russia's demand for a "zone of comfort" along its borders, Washington's credibility as the global dominant power, the norm-setter and arbiter will suffer.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization, of course, is no military alliance, and even less a rival of NATO. Its member states, however, are closely watching the US-Russian match being played out at the western end on the great Eurasian continent. *Some, like the Central Asian states, are essentially ducking, hedging, or running for cover. China, which seeks to defend its own core interests in East Asia and the Western Pacific, looks at the current Russian-American competition through the prism of its own relations with Washington and Moscow.*

China has a very important relationship to keep with the US. Playing a long game, Beijing usually avoids direct collisions with Washington, and means to profit from the US-initiated globalization to the fullest extent possible. Like Russia, however, China would also want to carve out a comfort zone for itself along its eastern borders and shores, and, like Russia again, it faces the reality of the US' physical presence and US-led alliances there. What Washington is now doing in an effort to contain Moscow in Eastern Europe provides important information to Beijing in East Asia.

There is more to Beijing's reaction than just watching and drawing conclusions. The apparently long-term rupture of Russia's relations with the West offers an opportunity to the Chinese leadership to enhance its already close relationship with the Kremlin and thus turn the global geopolitical balance in its favor - not unlike former US president Richard Nixon and former secretary of state Henry Kissinger who reached out to Chairman Mao Zedong in 1972. The Russians, angry with Washington, are now more amenable to giving China wider access to their energy riches and their advanced military technology. The Western sanctions pushing Russia out of the international financial system are also making Moscow more ready and willing to back the Chinese yuan against the US dollar.

A Sino-Russian military alliance against the US is still a rather long shot. Yet the two countries' political, economic and military alignment is getting thicker. An expellee from the G8, which is now back to G7, Russia is now eagerly embracing the non-West, particularly in Asia and Latin America. Within the non-West, China is unquestionably the premier power. Managing Russia will not be easy for anyone, but the country is a precious resource for China. So far, Beijing has displayed more tact in dealing with Moscow than any other major player in the world. Building on this success, it can now set its bar higher.

*To a China which is rising and raising its global profile, BRICS is an asymmetrical equivalent of the G7, albeit in a very different shape and form. The SCO, to use a similar analogy, is an asymmetrical analogue to NATO, but as a political organization of continental Asia (including Russia), rather than a military bloc.* The inclusion of India and Pakistan into the SCO is a logical next step. Iran, currently an observer, can follow later. 

Enhancing the SCO's security credentials and extending its reach requires a major qualitative upgrade of China's strategic thinking and diplomacy, and an even closer partnership with Russia. The SCO summit in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, will probably not see this yet, but it might become a point when the balance of Eurasia has decisively turned in China's favor. Beijing would need to thank Washington for it.

_The author is director of the Carnegie Moscow Center._

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## TaiShang

*Xi proposes to build China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor*
_2014-09-12 _

President Xi put forward the proposal at a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Mongolian President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj on the sidelines of the 14th summit of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO).

*Highlighting that the development strategies of the three neighboring countries are highly compatible, Xi noted that both Russia and Mongolia have positively responded to China's vision on building an economic belt along the Silk Road.*

The Silk Road Economic Belt initiative, proposed by Xi during his visit to Central Asia last year, eyes a revival of the ancient trade route linking China with Central Asia and Europe.

*The three countries, Xi pointed out, can dovetail the Silk Road Economic Belt initiative with Russia's transcontinental rail plan and Mongolia's Prairie Road program, and jointly build a China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor.*

On building the corridor, Xi called on the three sides to strengthen traffic interconnectivity, facilitate cargo clearance and transportation, and study the feasibility of building a transnational power grid.

*As part of the initiative, Xi also suggested that the three countries beef up cooperation in such areas as tourism, think tank, media, environmental protection, and disaster prevention and relief.*

The three countries should deepen cooperation within the framework of the SCO, jointly safeguard regional security, and achieve common development, said the Chinese leader.

Founded in Shanghai in 2001, the SCO groups China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

On international cooperation, Xi noted that the three countries need to jointly safeguard the basic norms governing international relations, advocate the new security concept of mutual trust, mutual benefit, equality and collaboration, and jointly promote the political resolution of international disputes and hot issues.






_Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Mongolia's President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj,in Dushanbe, capital of Tajikistan, Sept. 11, 2014. (Xinhua/Ju Peng)_

*China supports Mongolia's participation in regional affairs, said Xi, inviting Mongolia to participate in the activities China and Russia plan to hold next year to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the victories of the World Anti-Fascist War and the Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression, as well as the 70th anniversary of the founding of the United Nations.*

Noting that the three countries are good neighbors and partners, Xi said the trilateral summit is of great significance to deepening mutual trust, promoting win-win cooperation among the three parties, and pushing forward regional cooperation in Northeast Asia.

He also voiced the belief that the trilateral summit will lay a firm foundation for the development of a closer trilateral relationship.

For his part, Putin said the three countries should enhance exchanges, dialogue and coordination.

China's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative offers important opportunities for trilateral cooperation, the Russian president said, calling on the three sides to combine their development plans and establish a long-term and stable cooperative relationship in the areas of energy, mining and transportation infrastructure construction.

*He also called on the three nations, all champions of multipolarization, to make joint efforts in safeguarding regional security and stability.*

Meanwhile, the Mongolian president said his country attaches strategic importance to developing closer good-neighborly friendship and cooperation with China and Russia.

Noting that Xi's and Putin's recent visits to Mongolia have advanced Mongolia's ties with China and Russia, Elbegdorj said his country is willing to enhance cooperation with the two countries, especially in the fields of transportation infrastructure interconnectivity and cross-border transportation.

Mongolia is keen on strengthening cooperation with such mechanisms as the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation, and participating in regional affairs, said Elbegdorj.

During the meeting, the three leaders also decided to establish a consultation mechanism at the vice foreign ministerial level to coordinate and promote trilateral cooperation.

*They also agreed to hold more trilateral summits in the future if need be.*

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## cirr

*Xi proposes to build China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor*

CCTV.com

09-12-2014 19:25 BJT

Chinese President Xi Jinping has discussed his proposal for a Silk Road economic corridor with his counterparts from Mongolia and Russia.





_Chinese President Xi Jinping (L) meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin (R) and Mongolia's President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj in Dushanbe, capital of Tajikistan, Sept. 11, 2014. (Xinhua/Ju Peng)_

Speaking on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit in Tajikistan, Xi Jinping said the development strategies of the three neighbouring countries are highly compatible. He called for improved transport links, quicker customs clearance and a possible transnational power grid.

Russian President Vladimir Putin and Mongolian President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj agreed with President Xi’s proposal and called for more cooperation and interconnectivity between the three nations.





_Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Mongolia's President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj,in Dushanbe, capital of Tajikistan, Sept. 11, 2014. (Xinhua/Ju Peng)_

Xi proposes to build China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor - CCTV News - CCTV.com English

*SCO Backs Ukraine Peace Plan, China Pledges $5 Billion*

September 12, 2014

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) has backed a cease-fire deal agreed for eastern Ukraine last week and called for talks to continue until the conflict is resolved.

The call for a negotiated settlement of the conflict between Kyiv and pro-Russian separatists came in a declaration adopted on September 12 at a summit of the regional grouping comprising China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and host Tajikistan.

In a swipe at the United States, the SCO leaders also condemned any unilateral buildup of missile defense systems.

President Vladimir Putin said that Russia, which assumed the group's rotating presidency, will seek to boost the SCO's role in preserving regional stability.

Chinese President Xi Jinping said China, which has used the group to expand ties with the former Soviet republics of Central Asia, will provide a $5 billion loan to finance joint SCO projects.

Based on reporting by Reuters and Interfax

SCO Backs Ukraine Peace Plan, China Pledges $5 Billion

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## cirr

*$5 billion in loans offered to members of group*

_2014-09-13 11:14

China Daily Web Editor: Wang Fan_

China offered $5 billion in loans to other member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization for project financing, in a bid to provide them more flexible trade options, infrastructure facilities and security solutions to develop a regional economy.

President Xi Jinping urged SCO members to accelerate the pace of establishing an SCO financial institution to assist the regional trade of agricultural products, energy cooperation and scientific development.

"China will strengthen energy cooperation and security of oil and gas pipelines with SCO members, as well as diversify the trade of agricultural products between SCO members," Xi said during the 14th meeting of the Council of Heads of State of the SCO, held in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, on Friday.

Xi said the SCO members should deepen energy cooperation at various stages such as production, transmission and processing.

*The heads of SCO states at the meeting agreed to speed up establishment of an SCO development fund and bank*, as well as deepen regional trade with one another.

China agreed in 2013 to establish a foundation for China-Eurasian economic cooperation that has drawn the participation of Asian and European countries including SCO member countries and observer countries. The initial phase of the foundation is $1 billion, mainly for infrastructure, regional connectivity, energy and agricultural development.

SCO members have already established two non-governmental organizations — the Business Council and the Interbank Association — to strengthen cooperation in the financial sector.

The SCO has targeted 2020 as the most important year for the free flow of goods, services, technology and capital among members.

China has proposed a number of measures to reach this goal, including allowing national currencies a higher international profile and getting banks in member states to adopt a more unified approach.

"*The financial assistance will embody tangible efforts linking growth centers such as Beijing, Moscow and St. Petersburg, and developing new growth hubs such as Tashkent, Almaty and Dushanbe in the region*," said Sun Zhuangzhi, secretary-general of the SCO research center at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

"From a long-term perspective, the economic cooperation will fully support trade, private investment, industrial productivity and service industry in this massive regional market," said Sun.

China's trade with other SCO members surged from $14.23 billion in 2002 to $129.45 billion last year, and China has proposed a series of strategic concepts, including the Silk Road economic belt. All six SCO members and the five observers are on the ancient Silk Road trade route.

Chen Yurong, a senior researcher at the China Institute of International Studies, said this is a practical step for SCO members to stimulate exports and gain foreign investment, especially the landlocked countries in Central Asia. They need effective channels to connect the European and Asia-Pacific regional markets.

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## Beidou2020

SCO will have a development bank too?


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## haidian

*Russia and China discussing 32 joint projects - Russian deputy PM*
*Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:49am*


> MOSCOW, Sept 13 (Reuters) - Russia and China are discussing more than 30 joint economic projects in a variety of areas from petrochemicals to banking, Russia's First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov said on Saturday after visiting China last week.
> 
> As Russia was hit by new sanctions by the United States and the European Union on Friday over its involvement in Ukraine, Shuvalov said Asian countries such as China did not support the Western sanctions and were keen to cooperate with Russia.
> 
> *"Yesterday in China we discussed 32 projects. And they cover absolutely everything: petrochemicals, the banking sector, work in the area of food products, and very, very varied projects," Shuvalov said during an appearance on "Vesti on Saturday with Sergey Brilev", a TV discussion programme.*
> 
> "It isn't just gold, oil, gas and copper that we discussed yesterday," Shuvalov said. "And in general many people in Russia are under the impression that China is only interested in natural resources."
> 
> Shuvalov visited China and Singapore last week to meet investors and government officials.
> 
> Faced with Western sanctions, which are damaging Russia's economy, Moscow has been playing up opportunities for economic cooperation with Asia.
> 
> "China announces every time at the beginning of any meeting that they categorically do not accept any sanctions, which they consider illegal," he said.
> 
> He also said Russia was studying China's own experience of sanctions imposed against it after the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, arguing that China surmounted them with the help of liberalising economic reforms which Russia should copy.
> 
> "If one looks at the experience of '89 after the events on Tiananmen Square we, of course, have noticed what happened and how it happened. Therefore this thesis about greater economic freedom is in part (based on) the experience of the People's Republic of China," he said. (Reporting by Jason Bush and Alexei Anishchuk; Editing by Susan Fenton)


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## senheiser

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Russia, China negotiate over 30 joint projects worth over $100 bln — official September 19, 15:24 UTC+4 
Russia and China have recently achieved a significant boost in their bilateral relations, primarily in the economic, energy, space and scientific as well as military spheres




© EPA/HOW HWEE YOUNG


SOCHI, September 19. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia and China are discussing over 30 joint projects worth over $100 billion with the frames of the mutual economic cooperation, Kirill Dmitriev, the CEO of the Russian Direct Investment Fund, said on Friday.


“We have set up an intergovernmental Russian-Chinese commission and recently discussed over 30 projects worth over $100 billion,” Dmitriev said addressing the International Investment Forum Sochi-2014.

The bilateral investment commission comprising both private and state-run companies gathered for its very first session in China last week.

“Asian investors are interested in Russia, however, it takes little longer than usual to establish relations with them and it is important that the relations are organized in a more system-like manner,” Dmitriev added.


The Intergovernmental Russia-China Commission for Investment, co-chaired by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov and Vice-Premier of the State Council of the People’s Republic of China Zhang Gaoli, held its inaugural session early last week in the Chinese capital of Beijing.

Following the session Russian Direct Investment Fund CEO Dmitriev was appointed a co-chair of the Commission’s Consultative Committee of Entrepreneurs representing the Russian side. Chairman and CEO of China Investment Corporation (CIC) Ding Xuedong was appointed to co-chair the committee on the Chinese side.

Russia and China have recently achieved a significant boost in their bilateral relations, primarily in the economic, energy, space and scientific as well as military spheres.


One of the milestone deals between the countries was the natural gas supply contract signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to China in May.

Russian energy giant Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) signed a 30-year contract on Russian natural gas supplies to China via the eastern route worth a total of $400 billion.

Over the past few years, the two countries have noticeably increased the intensity of their contacts. China has become Russia’s major trade partner while Russia is in the top ten of China’s main trade partners. In 2002-2013, bilateral trade hiked from $12 billion to $89.2 billion.

Russia and China are planning to bring their bilateral trade turnover to $100 billion by 2015 and to $200 billion by 2020.

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## DoTell

Good going. Now that will be $100 billion well spent.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Fantastic news. 

The important thing now is to set up our alternative to the SWIFT network, conduct more transactions through UnionPay (instead of Visa), and most importantly to use Yuan and Rubles to do business with each other.

America knew that by sanctioning Russia, they would eventually destroy their most important economic weapon, i.e. economic sanctions. Since it would force all the countries (that are not in the American camp) to find another way.

It was our mistake that we did not do it sooner. Let both China and Russia remember this, and take better steps to protect ourselves in the future.

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## The Unnamed

surprisingly, modijis becoming pm and ukraine was round about the same time. world politics was never the same.


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## ChineseTiger1986

BEIJING, September 23. / ITAR-TASS/. China will never support or join recently imposed sanctions against Russia, Valentina Matviyenko, the speaker of the Russian parliament’s upper chamber, said on Tuesday following her talks with Chinese President Xi Jinping.

The speaker of the Federation Council quoted the Chinese president as saying, that China will never support sanctions against Russia, no matter how much pressure is exerted on them.

According to Matviyenko, China publicly stated its opinion on the inadmissibility of unilateral sanctions, their illegitimacy and counter-productivity.

“This is where our positions absolutely coincide,” she said adding that both Russia and China consider such sanctions as “ineffective and view them as attempts to exert pressure on sovereign states in order to weaken them and change their positions, to restrain their development.”

“This is China’s public position and we are grateful to China for such evaluations,” Matviyenko, who is currently on an official visit to China, said.

She added that no sanctions would influence partnership relations of Russia and China saying that “the Russian-Chinese strategic cooperation is aimed at the long-term perspective and it is susceptible neither to any form of a political environment nor to anyone’s ambitions since it is in the fundamental interests of our peoples.”

*Western sanctions against Russia*

Last week the European Union and the United States introduced a new set of sanctions targeting Russian officials and companies.

The so-called “black list” of EU sanctions published by the organization’s Official Journal on Friday included major Russian energy and defense companies as well as officials from Russia and Ukraine.

The West started to impose sanctions on Russia in March 2014 over the events in Ukraine. First, an early EU summit stalled the talks on a visa-free regime and a new base agreement on Russia-EU cooperation. Further on the sanctions were grouped into three categories - personal, corporate and sectoral.

By the beginning of September some 420 Russian individuals and 143 companies had been put on the sanction lists of the European Union, the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, Switzerland and Norway.

In response to Western sanctions, President Vladimir Putin signed a decree on August 6 to ban for one year the imports of agricultural, raw and food products from the countries, which imposed sanctions against Russia.

Prime Minister Medvedev announced on August 7 that the Russian government imposed a one-year ban on imports of beef, pork, poultry, fish, cheeses, fruit, vegetables and dairy products from Australia, Canada, the European Union, the United States and Norway.

ITAR-TASS: World - China will never support sanctions against Russia — Russian official

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## Beidou2020

Western world can't isolate Russia unless it has China on board.

China gives Russia an escape route which makes Western sanctions lose their effectiveness.

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## Sonyuke_Songpaisan

Beidou2020 said:


> Western world can't isolate Russia unless it has China on board.
> 
> China gives Russia an escape route which makes Western sanctions lose their effectiveness.


but what benifit we can get from the support to ruassia?


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## Beidou2020

Sonyuke_Songpaisan said:


> but what benifit we can get from the support to ruassia?



Geopolitical support. 
Energy.
Raw Materials.
etc

If China didn't have Russia, it would be totally isolated and the West would gang up on China and China would have no where to turn to. Russia gives that support in various ways.

Russia is the 2nd most powerful country.

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## Sonyuke_Songpaisan

Beidou2020 said:


> Geopolitical support.
> Energy.
> Raw Materials.
> etc
> 
> If China didn't have Russia, it would be totally isolated and the West would gang up on China and China would have no where to turn to. Russia gives that support in various ways.
> 
> Russia is the 2nd most powerful country.


so we hug each other for warmth. But we'd better keep in mind Russians can not be trusted, we have lessons from history


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## Beidou2020

Sonyuke_Songpaisan said:


> so we hug each other for warmth. But we'd better keep in mind Russians can not be trusted, we have lessons from history



Wrong.

West can never ever be trusted.

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## Sonyuke_Songpaisan

Beidou2020 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> West can never ever be trusted.


trust yourself


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## Chinese-Dragon

Sonyuke_Songpaisan said:


> but what benifit we can get from the support to ruassia?



Russia is a former superpower, and a modern day energy superpower. And they still have one of the most powerful militaries on Earth, with an arsenal that could wipe out the planet many times over.

It is wrong to underestimate Russia, they are still a superpower at their heart.

China (i.e. the PRC) has a lot to gain from strategic partnership with Russia, that's why our Government has been working overtime on improving strategic ties with Russia, including the half-trillion gas pipeline deal that we recently signed.

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## Raphael

Why would we ever put sanctions on Russia? They have so much nice stuff we want to buy.

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## TaiShang

*Chinese Premier to visit Russia next month 
September 24, 2014, 8:11 am*







_File photo of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (R) and his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev in Beijing, China in October 2013 [Xinhua]_

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang will visit Russia next month to boost bilateral ties between the two BRICS members.

Li will co-chair the bilateral prime ministers’ regular meeting with Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev on 13 October. The two states’ premiers will also hold a meeting at the international forum Open Innovations on 14 October.

Li told visiting Russian Federation Council Speaker Valentina Matviyenko in Beijing on Tuesday that the Chinese leadership is keen on further strengthening cooperation with Russia in trade, investment, energy, technology and culture.

*He said China’s equipment manufacturing industry, having an edge in quality, cost-effectiveness and market competitiveness, is willing to participate in Russia’s infrastructure construction, mainly high speed railway projects and railway upgrades.

Russia’s President Vladimir Putin said earlier this year that the Sino-Russian ties, including those on approaches to international problems, are at an unprecedented level.*

“As for our relations with China’s People’s Republic, they develop successfully and are at an unprecedentedly high level – both at the level of trust and the level of cooperation. I mean also the political sphere, our common approaches to estimations of international situations and to security in the world,” he said during a Q&A session in April in Moscow.

*Russia’s trade turnover with China is almost thrice as big as that with the US.*

“It is absolutely clear that we will be expanding collaboration with China. Our trade with the United States is 27.5 [billion], but trade with China is 87 billion, and it is growing. And experts will agree that China is gradually becoming the number one economic power. The question is when it will happen: in 15, 20 or 25 years. But everybody understands that it is inevitable,”asserted Putin.

*The Russian and Chinese central banks have recently agreed on a draft currency swap agreement, which will allow them to increase trade in domestic currencies and cut the dependence on the US dollar in bilateral payments.*

A _Bloomberg_ report says the yuan-ruble trade on the Moscow Exchange has jumped 10-fold this year to $749 million in August.

Earlier this month, Moscow and Beijing have entered into a pact to boost use of the rouble and yuan for trade transactions.

“We’re going to encourage companies from the two countries to settle more in local currencies, to avoid using a currency from a third country,” Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov said referring to the US dollar.

Moscow is looking to increase trade and banking cooperation with Beijing, even as it battles new rounds of sanctions imposed by the EU and US over the Ukraine crisis.

“We talked about the infrastructure of investment cooperation, expanding trade in rubles and yuan, banking cooperation, the possibility of Russian companies opening accounts and being issued loans from Chinese banks, as well as the possibility of facilitating Chinese companies’ access to Russian banks,” Shuvalov said.

The European Union had earlier in July published a law to cut off financing for five major Russian banks over Moscow’s alleged support for separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Earlier this month, Putin oversaw the start of construction on a giant gas pipeline that will ship $400 billion worth of Russian gas to China for the next 30 years.

“Just now, we along with our Chinese friends are starting the biggest construction project in the world,” Putin told Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli, who was also present at the launch.

Russia also plans to sign a 30-year gas supply contract with China via the western route, Russian energy giant Gazprom’s CEO Alexei Miller told President Vladimir Putin last week.

The route to supply gas to China via western Siberia may be implemented faster than the eastern route, through which Moscow has agreed to ship the fuel to its Asian neighbor in May.

***

Screw the US and its allies; it is China's national interests that rein supreme. Nothing else.

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## haidian

*Japan PM Abe Says Seeks Better Ties With China, South Korea, Russia*

by Wochit 0:34 mins


> Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said he wants to improve relations with China, South Korea and Russia, while acknowledging difficulties facing ties with his country's Asia-Pacific neighbors. "Quiet efforts are needed" if Abe is to achieve his goal of meeting Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of a November Pacific Rim meeting in Beijing, Abe told a news conference in New York on Thursday evening. The news con


Japan PM Abe Says Seeks Better Ties With China, South Korea, Russia | Wochit - Yahoo Screen

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## Jlaw

LOL. Really, after just annoucing more economic sanctions against Russia? 



Japanese politician going full retard on us?

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## dlclong

can U.S. agree ？


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## Aepsilons

haidian said:


> *Japan PM Abe Says Seeks Better Ties With China, South Korea, Russia*
> 
> by Wochit 0:34 mins
> 
> Japan PM Abe Says Seeks Better Ties With China, South Korea, Russia | Wochit - Yahoo Screen



Very elating news, indeed. Abe Sensei has to be pragmatic, as well as hopeful.



dlclong said:


> can U.S. agree ？



Do you know that Japan Maritime Self Defense Force and the Russian Navy are conducting naval exercises right now?


Japan Plans Joint Navy Exercises With Russia Late September | Military & Intelligence | RIA Novosti


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## Beidou2020

Japan is making enemies with China, Russia and South Korea.


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## IsaacNewton

Speech made by Nixon in 1994, 20 years ago. A controversial president, but a person that I hold in high regards for he changed the history of the world with his visit to China and USSR in 1972. He is a man with incredible vision, it is fascinating how everything that his words still hold high relevance today.

Nixon's Final Words

China 

During one of our meetings in San Clemente 21 years ago, Leonid Brezhnev expressed concern about the growing threat of China.* When I said that it would be at least 25 years before China became a significant economic and military power, he held up both hands with fingers outstretched in what I thought was a sign of surrender. 

The translator finally interpreted his gesture. "Ten years," he said. Brezhnev was closer to being right than I was. The world's largest communist society could become the world's richest capitalist economy in the next century. *

Some observers contend that we no longer need a close relationship with China, since the threat of Soviet aggression has disappeared. The other side of that coin is that the Chinese no longer need the U.S. to protect them against possible Soviet aggression. Both concepts are wrong. In the era beyond peace, China and the U.S. need to cooperate with each other for reasons completely unrelated to the Soviet Union or Russia.

China has emerged as the world's third-strongest military and economic power. It is strong enough to play a major role in regional conflicts in Southeast Asia, the Middle East and the Persian Gulf. It is the only country that possesses the necessary leverage to rein in North Korea's ominous nuclear weapons program. *We should not underestimate China's ability to disrupt our interests around the world if our relationship becomes belligerent rather than cooperative.*

While most Americans give China high marks for its free-market economics, they rightly criticize the government's continuing denial of political freedom to the Chinese people. However, cutting back our trade with China by revoking China's most-favored-nation status would be a tragic mistake. We cannot improve the political situation in China through a "scorched earth" economic policy. Revoking China's most-favored-nation status would hurt the free-market reformers and entrepreneurs who hold the key to China's future. Not only would it devastate the mainland's economy, it would lay waste to the surrounding region as well. No other nation in Asia supports our linking MFN status to human rights.

*Today China's economic power makes U.S. lectures about human rights imprudent. Within a decade, it will make them irrelevant. Within two decades, it will make them laughable. By then the Chinese may threaten to withhold MFN status from the U.S. unless we do more to improve living conditions in Detroit, Harlem and South Central Los Angeles. *

I vividly recall calling on Deng Xiaoping in the fall of 1989, four months after the Tiananmen Square crackdown. After he greeted me in the Great Hall of the People, I told him that there had never been a worse crisis in the relationship between our countries and that it was up to China to take steps to deal with the outrage of the civilized world. With dozens of journalists from around the world looking on, he gave a boiler-plate reply about not tolerating interference in China's internal affairs.

After the cameras left, he became far more animated. By then China's battle-scarred old survivor was almost totally deaf. The conversation took on a surreal character, with the official translator shouting my comments into his left ear and his daughter screaming them into his right. But while he had great difficulty hearing, he had no difficulty seeing his responsibility as his country's paramount leader. *He told me that after years of subservience to foreigners, China was now united and independent and that the Chinese people would never forgive their leaders for apologizing to another nation.* In almost the next breath he introduced the subject of Fang Lizhi, the dissident who was then being sheltered at the U.S. embassy in Beijing, and made a highly constructive proposal for ending the standoff.

*Deng's message was unmistakable: Our differences could be bridged by discussion behind the scenes but would be exacerbated by red-hot exchanges of public rhetoric.* A few months later, Fang Lizhi was released, but on China's initiative, not in response to demands by the U.S.

In late 1992 Deng was widely believed to have given the Chinese government these marching orders for dealing with the new Administration in Washington: "Increase trust, reduce troubles, develop cooperation and avoid confrontation." In its first moves, the Clinton Administration responded by increasing distrust, stirring up trouble, threatening noncooperation and fomenting confrontation. A letter from President Clinton to Beijing, which listed fourteen criticisms on issues ranging from human rights to trade, set off months of diplomatic skirmishing that came close to imperiling the constructive relations between our countries. *In the future, particularly on foreign policy issues, we should treat China with the respect a great power deserves and not as a pariah nation.*

Russia 

*No other single factor will have a greater political impact on the world in the century to come than whether political and economic freedom take root and thrive in Russia and the other former communist nations. Today's generation of American leaders will be judged primarily by whether they did everything possible to bring about this outcome. If they fail, the cost that their successors will have to pay will be unimaginably high.*

Will Boris Yeltsin be able to continue to provide the leadership Russia needs to achieve the goals of the second Russian revolution - political and economic freedom at home and a nonaggressive foreign policy abroad? The product of a unique period in Russian history, Yeltsin cannot be judged as if he were the president of a stable democracy with an established constitutional order. If he acted like one, he would probably fail. Yeltsin is a tough and sometimes ruthless Russian patriot. Otherwise he would never have been able to come to power and withstand the numerous challenges to his rule. Mikhail Gorbachev started reforms without understanding their likely consequences and then backed down when the dangers became apparent, exposing himself - as one former senior Soviet official described him to me - as a "brutal wimp." In contrast, Yeltsin acts pre-emptively and decisively. This is the key to the continuing support he has among the Russian people despite all the pain associated with his country's transition to democratic capitalism.

Yeltsin should be supported but not idolized. By idealizing Yeltsin's government, the West runs the risk of personalizing its Russian policy and creating a potential trap for itself. If he fails to live up to our overly optimistic expectations, the West's Russian policy - while basically sound - may lose public support. While supporting Yeltsin, we should remember that there are other democrats in Russia - many of whom have disagreements with him about the constitutional division of labor. If we do not develop good working relationships with the new generation of Russian leaders, we will be caught flat-footed by unexpected shifts in the political landscape, as we were by the strong showing of Vladimir Zhirinovsky's Liberal Democratic Party in December's elections.

On March 14, 1994, I had the privilege of being the first American to address a meeting of an elected Russian Parliament, when I appeared before a committee of the State Duma, the lower house of the new Russian Parliament. The Duma is the breeding ground for future Presidents. Every leading candidate in the 1996 elections, with the exception of Alexander Rutskoi, is a Duma Deputy.

Many in the West were shocked when former Vice President Rutskoi and others charged in the armed uprising against the Yeltsin government last October were released from prison by the State Duma's grant of amnesty to them and to those who tried to overthrow Gorbachev in August 1991. For all this, Rutskoi's almost certain re-entry into public life will have a positive political impact.

In March 1994, I called on Rutskoi, whom I had met twice before, in his apartment in Moscow. He is a ramrod-straight war hero who looks at the world in a pointedly direct way. He had been out of prison for only 10 days and was still wearing the beard he had grown during his five months there. Our talk had an eerie quality because of a simultaneous and totally incomprehensible conversation between two large parrots in separate cages in the middle of Rutskoi's sitting room. He apologized for the noise, saying that the birds had had more room in his dacha, but that the Yeltsin government had taken the dacha away. The birds were not speaking English, and I knew enough Russian to know they weren't speaking Russian. He said that he had acquired them during a tour in Kuala Lumpur and that they spoke only Malaysian.

Rutskoi said that he intended to run for President in 1996 but added ruefully that while he was in prison Zhirinovsky had "appropriated a lot of my political base." As we discussed his impressions of the domestic scene, including the shocking rise in both organized crime and street crime in Russia, he said somewhat ominously, "I am able to bring law and order. I know how to do it." He predicted that Russia's transition to true democracy would take a minimum of 10 years.

*Russia will inevitably be strong again. The only question is whether a strong Russia will be a friend or an adversary of the West. We must do everything in our power to ensure the former rather than the latter. The most dangerous mistake we could make would be to ignore our differences or attempt to drown them in champagne and vodka toasts at feel-good summits. Rather than papering over differences with diplomatic gobbledygook, we must find ways to disagree without damaging one of the world's most important strategic relationships. *

*The second most dangerous mistake would be to neglect our responsibility for assisting Russia in its transition to freedom, or arrogantly to scold or punish it for every foreign or domestic policy transgression, as though it were an international problem child.*

What the U.S. wants most from Russia is a nonaggressive foreign policy. That Russian policy has become more assertive, even heavy-handed, is not in dispute. Yeltsin and his pro-Western Foreign Minister, Andrei Kozyrev, talk proudly about the newly muscular defense of Russian interests in the "near abroad" - the Russians' term for the other former Soviet republics. Still, I do not think a new imperialism looms. I have spoken with many Russian politicians of different persuasions, including President Yeltsin, who were nostalgic for at least some aspects of the former Soviet empire. But with the exception of the supernationalistic fringe, all the Russians with whom I have spoken seem to understand that the past can no longer be re-created.

As I write these words on March 30, 1994, the overwhelming conventional wisdom in the U.S. foreign policy establishment is that the prospects for the survival and success of economic reforms in Russia are bleak. The reformers are assumed by all the so-called experts to be in retreat after their election losses. Anti-reformers - most of them ex-communist bureaucrats - are ominously gaining strength. It is tempting, in view of the political and economic disarray, to throw in the towel.* But this is the time for the West to become a more active participant in Russia's success, not a passive observer of its failure. 
*

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## TheMatador

Today's domestic spying in America would make Nixon blush.

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## tranquilium

What ever reputation Nixon had, he is most definitely a lot more competent than both Bush and Obama combined.

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## Tractor

Nixon a nice guy,he visited Tianjin in 1979 and he loved our people and we remember him.

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## Rechoice

Hanoi Vietnam 1972. B 52 attack of US air-force in Hanoi.


US pilot was captured.


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## beijingwalker

*Can China and Russia Squeeze Washington Out of Eurasia?*
Posted: 10/06/2014 8:41 am EDT Updated: 3 hours ago
Can China and Russia Squeeze Washington Out of Eurasia? | Pepe Escobar

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## beijingwalker

*Russia, China capable of defeating US in nuclear war: Prof. Fetzer*
*Tuesday Oct 07, 201403:39 PM GMT

An eminent American political commentator says Russia and China are capable of defeating the United Sates in a nuclear war.

In an interview with Press TV on Monday, Professor James Henry Fetzer also said that Americans must wake up to the fact that a nuclear exchange would kill hundreds of millions of people.

He said, “The very idea that the United States should be concerned that Russia and China are giving every indication that they are not going to back down from American and Western encroachment in the Middle East and in Eastern Europe, is incredibly naïve on the part of any American authorities because we have been undertaking one provocative action after another..

PressTV - Russia, China capable of defeating US in nuclear war: Prof. Fetzer
*

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## BoQ77

any individual has their own guess.


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## general_yermolov_stalin

Russia has a massive network of underground cities and tens of thousands of civil defense population bunkers along with massive grain storage facilities.

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## beijingwalker

*China, Russia to Sign 30 Agreements During Annual Meet*
Global Research, October 06, 2014

_Russia and China will ink more than 30 agreements on energy, finance and high-speed rail cooperation during the annual Russia-China Prime Ministers summit to be held on 13 October, China’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson announced on Saturday._
The two states’ premiers will also hold a meeting at the international forum Open Innovations on 14 October, said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei in Beijing. Russia has been attempting to shrug off its dependence on European energy markets and instead adopt a “look-east” policy towards China and India.

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and Vice Premier Wang Yang will head for Russia for the 19th annual meet to hold talks with their Russian counterparts Dmitry Medvedev and Dmitry Rogozin.

The Prime Ministers summit this year follows successful meetings between President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin where the two leaders have overseen enormous Sino-Russian joint ventures, including a landmark $400 billion gas deal in Shanghai after a decade-long gas supply talks between the two countries.

Russia also plans to sign a new 30-year gas supply contract with China via the western route, Russian energy giant Gazprom’s CEO Alexei Miller told President Vladimir Putin last month.

As the US and EU step up pressure on Moscow with a new round of sanctions, Russia is seeking to strengthen ties with allies in the region, predominantly China.

Putin and Xi also met last month during a Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) Council of Heads of State meet in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, where Putin batted for aligning China’s Silk Route revival project with Russian plans for a trans-Siberian railway.

“We see great potential in the idea of developing a common SCO transport system that would make use too of Russia’s Trans-Siberian Railway and Baikal-Amur Mainline and be tied into China’s plans for developing the Silk Road route. I am sure that big projects of this kind serve the interests of our organisation’s members and would benefit all countries in Eurasia,” said Putin.

Putin said earlier this year that the Sino-Russian ties, including those on approaches to international problems, are at an unprecedented level.

“As for our relations with China’s People’s Republic, they develop successfully and are at an unprecedentedly high level – both at the level of trust and the level of cooperation. I mean also the political sphere, our common approaches to estimations of international situations and to security in the world,” he said during a Q&A session in April in Moscow.

*Russia’s trade turnover with China is almost thrice as big as that with the US.*

*“It is absolutely clear that we will be expanding collaboration with China. Our trade with the United States is 27.5 [billion], but trade with China is 87 billion, and it is growing. And experts will agree that China is gradually becoming the number one economic power. The question is when it will happen: in 15, 20 or 25 years. But everybody understands that it is inevitable,”* asserted Putin.

The Russian and Chinese central banks have recently agreed on a draft currency swap agreement, which will allow them to increase trade in domestic currencies and cut the dependence on the US dollar in bilateral payments.

A _Bloomberg_ report says the yuan-ruble trade on the Moscow Exchange has jumped 10-fold this year to $749 million in August.

Earlier last month, Moscow and Beijing have entered into a pact to boost use of the rouble and yuan for trade transactions.

The Chinese Premier will also visit Germany, Italy and the UN Food and Agricultural Organization(FAO) headquarters in Rome during his Europe trip and attend the 10th Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) summit in Milan from Oct. 16 to 17.

China, Russia to Sign 30 Agreements During Annual Meet | Global Research

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## beijingwalker

Without China, the sanctions imposed by the west on Russia can only be a pathetic joke.

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## nomi007

now china is in position to take tot benefit from high benefit from russians


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## mike2000

who even wrote this silly article?lool Russia and Chin can defeat the U.S in a 'NUCLEAR WAR'? More like insects/animals can defeat man if both 3 countries fight a nuclear war among themselves, since no human being will be left, hence only animals.insects will be the real winner.

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## Superboy

Even in conventional war the US would lose.


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## 500

What philosophy professor can know about the nuclear war? Well its *Press TV.*



Superboy said:


> Even in conventional war the US would lose.


Naturally, since US lacks DSI.

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## Oldman1

Superboy said:


> Even in conventional war the US would lose.



Doubt that.


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## AgentOrange

Superboy said:


> Even in conventional war the US would lose.



Please stop trolling. Even China's own generals don't think the PLA is a match for the US armed forces and there exists a gap of about 20 years in certain areas. Therefore, I must assume that you are trolling. Or you ate paint chips as a boy and therefore your judgement is severely affected. Or both.



mike2000 said:


> who even wrote this silly article?lool Russia and Chin can defeat the U.S in a 'NUCLEAR WAR'? More like insects/animals can defeat man if both 3 countries fight a nuclear war among themselves, since no human being will be left, hence only animals.insects will be the real winner.



Look at the source - pressTV (Iran). They often hope that Russia/China will do what Iran cannot vis a vis the US and the tone of their news reports reflects that. There was an entire segment last year about a Chinese quote - taken out of context of course - that stated China would extend its nuclear umbrella to include Iran. Where they got that, who the hell knows but it's probably the same place where they found this "scientist" who thinks any kind of nuclear conflict is "winnable."

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## BoQ77

mike2000 said:


> who even wrote this silly article?lool Russia and Chin can defeat the U.S in a 'NUCLEAR WAR'? More like insects/animals can defeat man if both 3 countries fight a nuclear war among themselves, since no human being will be left, hence only animals.insects will be the real winner.



he think about apocalyse too early.


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## beijingwalker

Superboy said:


> Even in conventional war the US would lose.



It depends on where the war is fought, if the war were fought anywhere close to China and Russia, surely US will lose. see what happened in Korean war and Vietnam war.


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## senheiser

TASS: Economy - Russia, China to sign package of cooperation documents in Moscow October 08, 9:26 UTC+4 
Around 50 documents on the Russian-Chinese cooperation are to be signed during the next week’s visit of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang to Moscow on October 12-14





© ITAR-TASS/Yuri Smityuk



BEIJING, October 8. /TASS/. Around 50 documents on the Russian-Chinese cooperation are to be signed during the next week’s visit of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang to Moscow, a Chinese deputy foreign minister said on Wednesday.


The Chinese premier is due to pay a visit to the Russian capital on October 12-14.

“We hope that this visit will contribute to strengthening political confidence and increasing support of Russia and China in the sphere of sovereignty and territorial integrity,” Cheng Gopin told reporters.

“China seeks to enhance the practical cooperation with Russia in the spheres of aviation and space, energy, high-speed railways, finances, innovations and also infrastructure development projects,” Gopin said.

Beijing is also expected to “intensify coordination with Russia in the international issues,” the official said.



Both countries plan to develop humanitarian exchanges, in particular, in the framework of the Year of youth exchanges between Russia and China, and also jointly prepare for celebrating the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II in 2015.


This will be Li’s first visit to Russia as the premier of the People's Republic of China, during which he is to co-chair the bilateral regular meeting with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev.

During his three-day visit, the Chinese premier is due to meet with Russia’s upper house (Federation Council) speaker Valentina Matviyenko and Russia’s lower house (State Duma) speaker Sergey Naryshkin.

The meetings between Russian and Chinese prime ministers are held annually. In October 2013, Medvedev met with his Chinese counterpart in Beijing. This year, the 19th bilateral prime ministers' regular meeting will be held in Moscow.

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## general_yermolov_stalin

beijingwalker said:


> It depends on where the war is fought, if the war were fought anywhere close to China and Russia, surely US will lose. see what happened in Korean war and Vietnam war.



US intervention in russian civil war also ended a defeat for american and british forces.


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## qwerrty

cockroaches win


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## kolinsky

Is there a winner in a nuke war? How to defeat someone?

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## Desertfalcon

qwerrty said:


> cockroaches win


Exactly.

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## kuge

Desertfalcon said:


> Exactly.


let the bible be the guide:

Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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## jkroo

No nuclear war!


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## qwerrty

waiting for fallout 4 and mad max


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## Cossack25A1

benaflek said:


> Nuclear winter will ensure that whole food chain collapses, no survivors.



The Earth wins because the planet is still there, revolving around the Sun whereas everyone and everything got nuked straight down to hell.

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## isro2222

If US alone than may be.... But you see USA no alone. Got india and world. Russia under sanctions and china falling back as investors pulling out. India ready to take a lead and that gave USA a new life.

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## Skull and Bones

isro2222 said:


> If US alone than may be.... *But you see USA no alone. Got india and world.* Russia under sanctions and china falling back as investors pulling out. India ready to take a lead and that gave USA a new life.



But aren't these beef eating Americans are the bad karmic race, and is ruled by the evil greys? Isn't Anunakis going to destroy these Yanki idiots?


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## somsak

isro2222 said:


> If US alone than may be.... But you see USA no alone. Got india and world. Russia under sanctions and china falling back as investors pulling out. India ready to take a lead and that gave USA a new life.


No. India will sit back and wait for all destroyed and become winner without a fight, the super.power that has her land untouched by nuke.

It will be England that will side with US to the bitter end or victory because the elite group of both US and England are related.


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## Aepsilons

No one wins. Nuclear Winter.

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## Desertfalcon

somsak said:


> No. India will sit back and wait for all destroyed and become winner without a fight, the super.power that has her land untouched by nuke.


The entire Indian subcontinent lies completely north of the equator. In the event of a nuclear exchange with so many warheads, India, like every other country in the northern hemisphere of the planet, would be encased in radioactive fallout and a nuclear winter that would destroy all life. The best bet would be to move to southern Argentina, Australia, or South Africa. Of course, that is assuming they would escape the carnage and would take you.

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## Steakhouse

You think China will let India be untouch with nuclear world war? I guarantee China will nuke India if US nuke China. Every continent in this planet will be nuke if there a case of nuclear war.

China get nuke, every nation will be nuke.


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## xesy

There are no winners in a nuclear war, only losers.

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## vietnamese_sausage

only great vietnam can defeat united states in a conventional war. we proved to the world.


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## cirr

*Russia, China to sign about 30 accords at premiers� meeting*






Some Russian and Chinese media will sign accords to strengthen cooperation in information sphere.

FAMAGUSTA GAZETTE

*Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and his Chinese counterpart Li Keqiang will hold a regular meeting in Moscow on Monday. About 30 documents are expected to be signed, a government official said.*

The two countries will sign a joint communique and several intergovernmental agreements on cooperation in energy, including Russian gas supplies to China via the so-called eastern route�, and financial spheres, alongside anti-monopoly regulations, and cooperation in customs and satellite navigation systems, the official told TASS.

A number of commercial deals will be concluded at the meeting, including agreements on broader energy cooperation between Russia's state energy giant *Gazprom*, top Russian oil producer *Rosneft* and China *National Petroleum Corporation* (CNPC), China抯 largest oil company.

There are also plans to sign agreements between biggest Russian and Chinese banks, including Russia抯 state-owned development bank *VEB*, *VTB bank*, *Rosselkhozbank*, *China's Export-Import Bank* (EximBank) and *China Development Bank* (CDB), and between major financial institutions such as Russia's Direct Investment Fund (RDIF), *The Russia-China Investment Fund* (RCIF) and *Russia's Moscow Exchange*, the government official said.

Some Russian and Chinese media will sign accords to strengthen cooperation in information sphere. 

Russia抯 state technology firm *Rostec*, mobile phone operator *Megafon*, cable operator *Comcor-TV* will sign agreements on cooperation in technology and telecommunications with China抯 *Huawei Technologies*, *China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation*, *Inspur Group* and other companies.

- — ITAR-TASS

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## cnleio

Just let me guess, it will be

1. RMB trade agreement between Sino-Russia banks
2. China HSR train export to Russia
3. China import Oil from Russia
4. China communication IT companies into Russia market.

China successfully replace West companies in Russia market coz West sanction to Ukraine Crisis.

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## cirr

*

 
Kenneth Rapoza Contributor

INVESTING 10/12/2014 @ 10:04PM 2,739 views*

*Li Heads To Moscow As Russia Tries Building Deeper China Relationship*





The Russians are working overtime to woo the Chinese. It’s proven to be quite an easy task.

China’s Premier Li Keqiang arrived in Moscow on Sunday afternoon for an official three-day visit, where he will discuss the usual cooperation deals related to oil and gas, China’s favorite souvenir after a trip to Russia.

Li told the Xinhua news agency today that China and Russia had a new and “comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination”.

“I’m looking forward to deepening the traditional friendship between China and Russia, and expanding our pragmatic cooperation, so as to achieve greater advancement in the development of bilateral ties,” Li said, doing his best impersonation of a press release.

Regardless of the political niceties and talking points, China and Russia really have been moving closer. Russian president Vladimir Putin said that as Europediversifies away from Russian oil and gas, Russia too must diversify away from Europe and the natural pick is China. Some 50 agreements and memorandums of understanding are reported to be signed during the trip, including in areas related to high-speed transit and finance.





New best friends? Chinese premier Li Keqiang with Russia’s president Vladimir Putin in Moscow this week. Russia is rediscovering its southern neighbor as China wants to invest in Russian oil and gas.

For Russia, finance agreements is at least as important as energy deals.

Russia could use the help of Chinese lending institutions. The Russian economy was banned from tapping U.S. and European loans of over 90 days. The Russian economy has been sanctioned since March, following the annexation of the Crimean peninsula in the Black Sea, a former piece of strategic Ukrainian real estate. Russia and Ukraine have been locking horns since late last year, but violence between the Ukrainian military and ethnic Russians erupted in Crimea in March and later spread to the oblasts of Donetsk and Luhansk in Eastern Ukraine. The West blames Russia for failing to quell the civil war there.

For its own part, China is seeking to diversify its sources of energy and Russia is the cheapest play around. However, billions are needed in pipeline and other logistics to deliver Russian hydrocarbons to mainland China. The two countries are likely to be in the early innings of energy integration. The relationship is important to Russia. In the not-so-distant future, Europe will likely have the infrastructure to handle imports of American liquefied natural gas. China likes things cheaper and would prefer to have its supply come from Russia. Both markets will diversify, with Russia continuing to be a key player in Europe and a growing supplier for China.

In May, China and Russia signed a 30-year, $400 billion deal to jointly produce and deliver around 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas per year to China.

Trade between China and Russia was $89.2 billion last year and plans are in place to raise that to $100 billion by 2015 and $200 billion by 2020, all thanks to oil and gas.

“There are a lot of opportunities for the Chinese in Russia, but also for Russian investors in China,” says Liang Xinjun, CEO of the Fosun Group, a Shanghai based investment firm. “Capital markets are going to open in China and change the nature of investing. Russians should come to China, too,” he said at VTB Capital’s Russia Calling investment conference in Moscow on Oct. 2.

Before Russia, Li visited Germany, the first leg on a three-nation tour which will also take him to Italy before flying back to Beijing.

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## TaiShang

*Defying the dollar Russia & China agree currency swap worth over $20bn*

RT, Published time: October 13, 2014 14:41





Yuan banknotes (Reuters / Petar Kujundzic)

The central banks of China and Russia have signed a 3-year ruble-yuan currency swap deal up to $25 billion, in order to boost trade using national currencies and lessen dependence on the dollar and euro.

*On Monday, China’s Central Bank announced the 150 billion yuan (815 billion ruble) currency swap between the Russian ruble and Chinese yuan. In terms of the Chinese currency that is $24.5 billion, and in Russian rubles, $20.1 billion.*

_"We need to expand the practice of using national currencies in trade. Currently they only account for 7 percent of turnover,”_ Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said at the 18th annual Russian-Chinese Commission, also attended by Chinese Premier Li Keqiang.

*The deal is valid for 3 years, and can be extended if both Russia and China agree. The draft currency swap was settled in August, but details on the size of the deal were sketchy.*

Using more local currencies will speed up trade between the two countries who are aiming to reach $100 billion by 2015. *Trade between Russia and China is already nearly $90 billion and is scheduled to hit $200 billion in the next six years.*

Cooperation between Russian and Chinese banks is also on the rise, and* China’s Import Export Bank, which is 100% state owned, has pledged to help Russian banks now cut off from Western capital markets, due to the latest round of sanctions. *http://rt.com/business/177088-eu-sanctions-banks-sberbank/

The Export-Import Bank (Exim) has agreed to establish a credit line equivalent to $2 billion for Russian state bank VTB, and has also signed agreements with VEB (Vnesheconombank), and the Russian Agricultural Bank.

*The credit lines can be used to finance imports from China, from agriculture to high tech equipment.*

*Medvedev and Li signed over 40 other agreements at the meeting, including outlining plans to add another pipeline from Russia to China.* Li is in Moscow for a three-day visit.

***

For China and Russian partnership, opportunities are limitless from agriculture to defence.

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## cirr

*China, Russia sign deals on energy, high-speed railways
*
Editor: zhangyerong 丨Xinhua

10-14-2014 07:27 BJT

MOSCOW, Oct. 13 (Xinhua) -- China and Russia on Monday inked a host of cooperation deals ranging from finance and investment to energy and high-speed railways.

Visiting Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev, witnessed the signing of the about 40 agreements after holding the 19th China-Russia Prime Ministers' Regular Meeting.

The documents, including governmental accords and business contracts, also cover trade, people-to-people exchanges, advanced technology, satellite navigation, currency swap and customs.

*A local currency swap deal worth 150 billion yuan (24.4 billion U.S. dollars) between the central banks of China and Russia was among the documents signed*, according to a statement issued by the People's Bank of China.

The three-year agreement, extendable on mutual consent, is expected to facilitate bilateral trade and direct investment between the two countries.

The frequent meetings between the two countries' leaders fully indicate that the relations between China and Russia are strategic, stable and for the long run, Li said in the talks with Medvedev.

Further strengthening bilateral cooperation, he added, will benefit both the two major emerging economies themselves and world peace and development at large.

China stands ready to work with Russia to translate their comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination into more fruits of practical cooperation, said the premier.

China, he added, would like to enhance cooperation with Russia on major investment projects in such areas as mining, chemical industry, agriculture and infrastructure construction.

On the trade front, China has been Russia's largest partner for the past four consecutive years. Two-way trade reached 89.2 billion dollars last year and plans are afoot to raise the volume to 100 billion dollars by 2015.

*China is also ready to advance the establishment of a Eurasian high-speed transport corridor linking Beijing and Moscow, Li said, adding that the current priority should be the high-speed railway between Moscow and Kazan.*

Regarding energy cooperation, the Chinese premier said Beijing will deepen cooperation with Moscow in nuclear power and energy in an integrated way that covers upstream, midstream and downstream industries.

Since its establishment 65 years ago, the diplomatic relationship between the two neighboring giants has now reached an "all-time high point," with frequent high-level visits, surging trade and investment and an increasing number of large-scale projects.

Li also encouraged the two sides to further enhance people-to-people exchanges and jointly mark the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II next year.

For his part, Medvedev said Russia is willing to promote two-way large-scale investment and advance cooperation with China in areas including transportation infrastructure and aviation.

Russia and China are close friends and partners, he said.

A joint communique issued after the pair's meeting said the two countries agree to open their markets wider to each other and stand against trade protectionism.

In the document, China and Russia pledge to continue to firmly support each other on issues concerning their core interests, and call for reform of the international economic and financial system to meet the needs of the real economy.

*They will also expand cooperation in such areas as civil aviation, aircraft manufacturing and peaceful use of nuclear power, said the communique.*

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## Kyle Sun

Do you have the layout of train line ?


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## cirr

*Chinese companies to take part in high-speed rail deals worth $12b*

Zhao Yinan, Fu Jing

China Daily/Asia News NetworkTuesday, Oct 14, 2014





Russia's Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev (R) and China's Prime Minister Li Keqiang speak during a meeting in Moscow.

High-speed rail deal part of agreements worth $10 billion (S$12 billion)

*China will take a decisive stake in the next stage of Russia's transportation development, with Chinese companies building the country's first high-speed rail line.* The agreement formed part of joint deals worth $10 billion being signed on Monday.

*Chinese firms and their Russian partners will hold talks on design, financing, supplying facilities and construction of a 770-km high-speed line connecting Moscow and Kazan, an important metropolis on the Volga River.*

This was one of 39 agreements being signed after Premier Li Keqiang and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev met for the 19th Regular Prime Ministers' Meetings.

*Under the Russian plan, the line will form the initial section of a railway stretching to Beijing, with completion scheduled for 2018 in time for the World Cup football finals in Russia*. Kazan is one of the host cities.

*Trains on the line will reach speeds of up to 400 km/h*, shortening the traveling time between the two cities from 13 hours to three and a half, according to the Moscow Times newspaper.

Under other agreements being signed on Monday, *the State Grid Corp of China will help to upgrade Russia's electricity network*.

Details of the support measures, technical terms and legal protection were also settled regarding a $400 billion cooperation project to transport natural gas from Russia to China.

A currency swap agreement was signed, allowing businesspeople to make direct settlement in the renminbi and rouble to prevent losses from an easing of the US dollar.

Margarete Klein, a researcher on Eastern Europe and Eurasia at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs, a think tank in Berlin, said *Moscow is willing to work hard to achieve breakthroughs in large cooperation projects with Beijing.*

This is because it wants to demonstrate that Russia is not isolated and, against the backdrop of EU sanctions imposed over the conflict in Ukraine.

Yang Hao, a professor at Beijing Jiaotong University who researches rail transportation management, said China has advanced technology and valuable experience in railway construction and operations. Beijing is willing to export these, while Moscow wants to improve rail services and upgrade infrastructure.

Yang said *the two countries have a track record of rail cooperation dating to the 1950s, when China introduced technology, engineers and manuals from the former Soviet Union to build its own rail network*. However, cooperation was sidelined in the 1960s as relations chilled. "Now is the time to reinvigorate this cooperation, as both governments wish," Yang said.

But such cooperation must first overcome a disparity in track gauges between the two countries, Yang said.

"It will not be easy for Chinese companies to design or build Russian rail lines, because they will have to adapt to wide tracks and must make many changes to trains and equipment," Yang said.

Gauri Khandekar, a researcher at Agora Asia-Europe, a knowledge hub on EU-Asia relations in the Brussels office of FRIDE, a European think tank, said more high-tech products will be exported by China, which has made significant technological advances. Khandekar cited high-speed trains as an "impressive example".

zhaoyinan@chinadaily.com.cn

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## cirr

*Russia and China To Build Second Gas Pipeline Via Western Route; Ukraine Sanctions Force Moscow to Turn East *

By Reissa Su | October 14, 2014 12:23 PM EST

Russia has signed a series of deals with China to ease the effects of sanctions over the Ukraine crisis. As reported in the Wall Street Journal, the Russia-China agreements are seen as evidence of Moscow's efforts to focus on the East. Russian President Vladimir Putin approved the deals to avoid total isolation.

The report said both the prime ministers of Russia and China had signed a total of 38 deals in Moscow in relation to trade, finance, energy and defence. An agreement involving a currency swap was also signed to reduce the countries' dependency on the U.S. dollar.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said China and Russia have agreed to "open credit lines" for their joint projects. He admitted that the current situation in world finance is not easy since not all countries are developing fast enough. The prime minister said Russia has challenges of its own.

*China's Export-Import bank is said to provide credit lines worth $2 billion each to Russia's state banks Vneshekonombank and VTB. The credit line issued to VTB will be used for a wide range of products from China including high-tech equipment*, reports said.

Chinese Prime Minister Li Kequiang added that the relationship between Russia and China continues to grow dramatically despite this year's international trade difficulties. He said this just shows that the two countries have "huge potential for cooperation."

However, business observers said the Chinese have been hesitant to invest in Russia because they are afraid of angering the West. The Chinese government may also be concerned about falling oil prices. Oil is the most important export of Russia.

*Mr Medvedev said Russia and China may soon plan on building a Western gas pipeline in 2015*. If negotiations are successful, the additional natural gas pipeline to China will be able to provide energy using the Western route by 2015. The Russian prime minister revealed that the final details regarding the construction of the second pipeline may be done within 2015.

OAO Rosneft, Russia's state oil giant, said it has also signed a deal with to strengthen relations with the China National Petroleum Corp. The oil company has been hit by Western sanctions over Ukraine. As Western funding came to a halt in recent months, Russia has turned to China to offer stakes in the country's oil fields.

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## cirr

*Russia Expects to Build 2 More NPP Units in China: Official*




Tianwan Nuclear Power Plant

15:28 13/10/2014

MOSCOW, October 13 (RIA Novosti) - *Russia is expecting to take part in the construction of the seventh and the eighth nuclear power plant (NPP) units at China's Tianwan NPP*, Russian Deputy Energy Minister Anatoly Yanovsky stated Monday.

"We are expecting that our Chinese colleagues will invite us for the realization of the projects on the seventh and eighth [NPP] units," Yanovsky said.

The Tianwan Nuclear Power Plant, located on the Chinese coast and considered to be the safest in the world by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), was constructed by Russian nuclear power equipment and service export monopoly Atomstroyexport. It began full operation in 2007.

As of 2014, two Atomstroyexport operating units are in service, two more are under construction by the Russian monopoly, to be completed in 2018, and the last four are in the planning stage. The Tianwan nuclear energy complex will comprise eight generating units when completed.

Mainland China, driven by the need to increase nuclear power to curb air pollution from coal-fired electricity-generating power plants, has about 20 nuclear power reactors in operation, with almost 30 under construction, and plans to build even more.

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## Beidou2020

Should have been around 500 billion yuan.

But China and Russia already had a currency swap in 2010 so this might be a renewal just like China renewed the currency swap with South Korea.

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## Jungibaaz

It's no wonder the Americans are going after Russia, defying the dollar is a worse sin than terrorism and murder in their book.

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## Beidou2020

Jungibaaz said:


> It's no wonder the Americans are going after Russia, defying the dollar is a worse sin than terrorism and murder in their book.



Yup.

They are going after Iran, Russia and China. All 3 countries want to de-dollarize. They took out Iraq and Libya that wanted to de-dollarize.

Reduce the dollar's share of global payments and you're chopping off the head of the snake. All the money going to the military and welfare will dry up. The entire size of the US economy is grossly overinflated due to it having the reserve currency which gives the dollar artificial strength despite running huge current account deficit.

The entire American empire depends on the dollar having a very large share of the global payments market (trade and investment) so they can print unlimited amount of money to fund their twin deficits by driving down interest rates and export their inflation to the rest of the world.

De-dollarization is the ultimate crime in the view of the American elite.

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## Huan

Jungibaaz said:


> It's no wonder the Americans are going after Russia, defying the dollar is a worse sin than terrorism and murder in their book.


Use all 10 U.S. carrier battle groups against Russia as a last resort. If we cannot subvert you, then we will bomb you and burn you down. ---by (future elected warhawk president)


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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> Should have been around 500 billion yuan.
> 
> But China and Russia already had a currency swap in 2010 so this might be a renewal just like China renewed the currency swap with South Korea.



Yes, this is basically an expansion of the deal signed earlier.

And there is more to it:

*Russia, China ink deal to build high-tech parks 
October 14, 2014, 5:32 am*







_Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (left) with his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev during the signing of documents at the 19th Regular Meeting of the Heads of Government of Russia and China on 13 September 2014 [Xinhua]_

China and Russia on Monday signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) *to jointly build 2 high-tech parks, one in each country.*

The park in China will be located in the new town of Xixian Fendong in Shaanxi and will initially occupy four square kilometers. In Russia, 200,000 square meters of buildings will be built in the Skolkovo Innovation Center in Moscow, the Russian Direct Investment Fund said in a press release Tuesday.

*Part of China’s revival of the “Silk Road”, the high-tech parks are being developed by the Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF), Russia-China Investment Fund (RCIF), the Skolkovo Fund, and the local government of northwest China’s Shaanxi Province.*

RDIF said under the agreement RCIF and the local government of China’s Xixian will establish a joint venture for the construction of the parks.

Authorities expect to open satellite offices for the Chinese park in the Chinese cities of Beijing, Shanghai, Guangdong and Heilongjiang, while the Russian park will open offices in Kaliningrad, Vladivostok and the Russian republic of Tatarstan.

RDIF plans to help the Russian park attract high-tech companies from both countries and promote development of international companies within the parks.

RCIF is a private equity fund created by the RDIF and China Investment Corporation, two sovereign wealth funds.

Earlier on Monday, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev, witnessed the signing of about 40 agreements after holding the 19th China-Russia Prime Ministers’ Regular Meeting in Moscow. Medvedev described the agreements signed as representative of “the special character of the partnership”.

*“We are interested in attracting Chinese investment into agrarian projects in Siberia and the Far East. In turn, as the world’s largest country with the biggest reserves of arable land we can supply China with food products, especially agricultural products,” Medvedev told his Chinese counterpart in Moscow.*

Further consolidating the partnership, the two allies also signed a currency swap deal worth 150 billion yuan ($24.4 billion) between the central banks of China and Russia.

The Chinese Premier in Moscow also said Beijing will advance the establishment of a Eurasian high-speed transport corridor linking Beijing and Moscow, adding that the current priority should be the high-speed railway between Moscow and Kazan.

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## vostok



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## TaiShang

We sincerely thank the US and its smart and powerful allies to cement and reinforce the China-Russia cooperation to a new level. 

Either country may not have achieved that in such a short time and on such a scale. 

Another crown jewel for US democracy which recycles same old garbage every four year.

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## TaiShang



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## raazh

have you guys noticed another arm twisting by the US and the western axis of terror. They are deliberately crashing the Oil price; the real backbone of Russian and Iranian economies .. Notice how Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have unusually agreed to keep pumping crude even though the price is tumbling. Wake up call for Russia ??

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## TaiShang

raazh said:


> have you guys noticed another arm twisting by the US and the western axis of terror. They are deliberately crashing the Oil price; the real backbone of Russian and Iranian economies .. Notice how Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have unusually agreed to keep pumping crude even though the price is tumbling. Wake up call for Russia ??



But, on the other, good news for China. Hence the importance of composing a historical bloc: When you act as a bloc, the adversary cannot hurt one of you without benefiting the other. 

Hopefully, with greater and more diverse cooperation with China, Russia will be able to reduce its reliance on the export of natural resources. 

The following Global Times essay sums it up nicely.

*Sino-Russian bond more than expediency*

The ongoing visit of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang to Russia has yielded fruitful results. The two sides on Monday inked 38 inter-governmental, inter-departmental and corporate agreements on different aspects of bilateral cooperation involving energy, aviation and space, high-speed railways, tourism, and finance. *The Western world has conflicted feelings as it witnesses the hug between the Russian bear and the Chinese dragon these days*. Many Western media outlets hold that it's Western sanctions that have pushed Moscow to side with Beijing, making China the biggest beneficiary of the West-Russia confrontation. 

It is indeed one of the reasons for the further advancement of Sino-Russian relations. But noticeably, this was the 19th China-Russia Prime Ministers' Regular Meeting.* If the West merely takes China-Russian cooperation as subordinate to the Western attitude toward the two, it is ridden in excessive Western centralism. *

Moscow and Beijing were once locked in long-lasting confrontation. But since the 1990s, both have drawn lessons and been engaged in developing friendly ties. In contrast, the Americans, who are obsessed with their experience of crushing the Soviet Union through the Cold War, have never reflected upon their long-term confrontation with Moscow. 

The West has been trying to sting Moscow now and then, which helps foster the recognition of the significance of equitable and friendly Sino-Russian cooperation. Beijing and Moscow have been accustomed to a long-term amicable relationship. In other words, even when the West lifts their sanctions against Russia, Sino-Russian relations will continue to prosper. 

Western countries fail to learn from how China and Russia overcame a myriad of conundrums to enter into overall cooperation. Instead, they keep calculating how China and Russia benefit from them. They are more willing to believe China and Russia should be entangled into cooperation, competition and even confrontation as are the relationships between China and the US, or between China and Japan. 

*Contrary to the "master-servant" relationship between the US and other Western countries, the relationship between China and Russia and other new emerging economies is equal, which is more appealing. US-Russia relations after the Cold War have never developed on an equal footing. *

Washington has kept suppressing Moscow's strategic space. Only when the US and the whole Western world reevaluate, can there be a new driving force in major power diplomacy. 

*Western countries fail to grasp the essence of the China-Russia relationship. They are laboring under the misperception that the two countries are engaged in a temporary courtship and the 38 cooperative agreements signed on Monday are candidly a "gift" of the West. By sticking to such views, they will continue their confrontation with Russia and be stuck in complicated relations with China. *

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## Beidou2020

raazh said:


> have you guys noticed another arm twisting by the US and the western axis of terror. They are deliberately crashing the Oil price; the real backbone of Russian and Iranian economies .. Notice how Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have unusually agreed to keep pumping crude even though the price is tumbling. Wake up call for Russia ??



That's exactly what's happening.

I noticed this too. Oil prices should be climbing considering the geopolitical tensions in the Middle East where oil supplies might be disrupted. Yes, the global economy is slowing but oil has dropped $20 in a very short period of time after hovering around $100-105 (I'm talking West Texas Intermediate, not Brent. Although Brent is considered the pricing benchmark for the world whereas WTI is mostly for US).

Oil prices are determined by the crude oil futures contract in COMEX. US banks (on behalf of the US regime) can manipulate the futures prices however they want. Like they do to gold prices to help the dollar.

The US along with the Saudis used this method of collapsing the price of oil in the 1980's (by Saudi Arabia pumping extra oil into the market and the US manipulating the oil futures down) to hurt the main source of fiscal revenue to the Soviet Union. This way the Soviet Union economy will be hurt and it won't have as much money to spend on military.

Oil represents around 50% of the entire Russian fiscal revenue. If oil prices go down, that will hurt Russia.

In 2013, Russian oil revenue was $194 billion and gas revenue was $28 billion. The total Russian fiscal revenue was $386 billion. That means oil accounts for around 50% of the Russian government revenue.



> *Russia's budget had revenues of $191-$194 billion from oil and $28 billion from gas in 2013*, Russian President Vladimir Putin said during his hotline on Thursday. *"This is a significant part of Russia's budget revenues," he said.* *Putin said main revenues in this sector come from oil, not gas. "Last year, revenues from oil were $191-$194 billion; revenues from gas - around $28 billion.* Do you feel the difference?" he said. The drop in oil prices from $90 to $85 per barrel is not critical for the Russian economy, Putin said. Russian President Vladimir Putin said he thought the European Union would not be able to stop buying Russian gas. He said during a hotline on Thursday that Russia supplied mainly pipeline gas to Europe, covering 30%-35% of its needs. "Will it be possible at all to stop buying Russian gas? In my view no," he said.
> Russia had revenues of $191-$194 bln from oil, $28 bln from gas in 2013 - Putin | Russia Beyond The Headlines)





> Russia ran a budget deficit last year of 310 billion rubles ($9.2 billion), the Finance Ministry said in preliminary data for 2013 released Monday, the Prime news agency reported.
> The figure amounts to about 0.5 percent of Russia’s gross domestic product and is slightly lower than the Finance Ministry’s latest prediction of 0.9 percent of GDP for the 2013 shortfall.
> Rising oil prices and rapid economic growth allowed Russia to record a budget surplus for much of the 2000s, but sputtering economic growth last year has led to smaller revenues and changes to long-term fiscal planning.According to the budget signed into law last year by President Vladimir Putin, Russia is expected to record a budget deficit of 391 billion rubles ($12 billion) this year and 817 billion rubles ($25 billion) in 2015.
> *Russia’s total income last year was 13.02 trillion rubles ($386 billion), the Finance Ministry said.*
> Russia Records 2013 Budget Deficit of $9.2Bln | Russia | RIA Novosti




The US is using its old method of getting Saudi Arabia to pump extra oil and combining that with manipulating the oil futures down to hurt the Russian economy and their military funding.

Even though Russia has enormous oil and gas production and reserves, it doesn't have the power to set the market price.

China must quickly establish its crude oil futures contract which will make it harder for the US to manipulate oil prices.

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## Beidou2020

TaiShang said:


> But, on the other, good news for China. Hence the importance of composing a historical bloc: When you act as a bloc, the adversary cannot hurt one of you without benefiting the other.
> 
> Hopefully, with greater and more diverse cooperation with China, Russia will be able to reduce its reliance on the export of natural resources.



Yes it will benefit China but it will cause massive damage to the Russian economy. China can manage relatively high oil prices, but Russia cannot afford very low oil prices.

What I'm trying to say is that China will benefit by say 10% but Russia will be hurt by say 30%.
Russia loses far more than what China gains through low oil prices.

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## key-CN

I think that all countries do not only China.


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## Star Wars

Jungibaaz said:


> It's no wonder the Americans are going after Russia, defying the dollar is a worse sin than terrorism and murder in their book.



A lot of countries have been defying the Dollar for last 5 years , India , Bangladesh,Japan ,China and even European countries . Somethings up . If OIC decides to dump the dollar then its all over ...

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## cnleio

I see the RMB get closer to a international currency.

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## senheiser

raazh said:


> have you guys noticed another arm twisting by the US and the western axis of terror. They are deliberately crashing the Oil price; the real backbone of Russian and Iranian economies .. Notice how Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have unusually agreed to keep pumping crude even though the price is tumbling. Wake up call for Russia ??


let them do this, saudi arabia needs oil at 90$ to have balanced budget and they have slowing growth. Russia isnt as much dependent on crude oil as we used to be unlike saudis, most of our oil exports is now gasoline and other oil produced products. Saudi arabia is mainly worried about shale oil so this is even hurting america more than russia as their whole shale revolution is dependent on high oil prices. They need to dig many more holes to achieve the same performance like russia or saudi arabia

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## cnleio

I forget, what about Russia selling Su35 fighter or China buying Su35 case ??????


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## raazh

senheiser said:


> let them do this, saudi arabia needs oil at 90$ to have balanced budget and they have slowing growth. Russia isnt as much dependent on crude oil as we used to be unlike saudis, most of our oil exports is now gasoline and other oil produced products. Saudi arabia is mainly worried about shale oil so this is even hurting america more than russia as their whole shale revolution is dependent on high oil prices. They need to dig many more holes to achieve the same performance like russia or saudi arabia


While the price of crude effects the global economy, I don't think it will hurt American + Western EXPORTS as much as it is hurting the Russian EXPORTS. US shale oil is now able to meet their local demand and has not been exported in any significant quantity so far. I do agree that the crude price dictates the economic viability of shale extraction however in the short term they are all good as long as the US demand can absorb their production. 

On the other hand crude or any of its derivatives is the back bone of Russian EXPORTS. Even short term swings in the price will have serious consequences for Russians fiscal management. Perfect example of the term "financial terrorism".


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## senheiser

raazh said:


> While the price of crude effects the global economy, I don't think it will hurt American + Western EXPORTS as much as it is hurting the Russian EXPORTS. US shale oil is now able to meet their local demand and has not been exported in any significant quantity so far. I do agree that the crude price dictates the economic viability of shale extraction however in the short term they are all good as long as the US demand can absorb their production.
> On the other hand crude or any of its derivatives is the back bone of Russian EXPORTS. Even short term swings in the price will have serious consequences for Russians fiscal management. Perfect example of the term "financial terrorism".


only 33% of Russian exports are crude oil 





What you dont get is that America is uses the dollar while russia is paying in ruble for its exploration. Russia is much cheaper to produce and explore

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## senheiser

• Chart: China Has Big Nuclear Energy Ambitions | Statista

November 7th, 2013

According to the World Nuclear Association, the majority of reactors under construction in 2013 can be found in Asia where rapid economic growth has fuelled demand for electricity. This is particularly evident in China and India where 28 and 7 reactors are under construction respectively. In China, these will deliver 27,790 MWe (net) while India’s 7 will generate 4,824 MWe (net) of electricity. 

Russia has 9 reactors under construction in 2013, the second highest total worldwide. India rounds off the top three. South Korea has 5 reactors under construction while the United States has 3, completing the top five.

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## TaiShang

raazh said:


> While the price of crude effects the global economy, I don't think it will hurt American + Western EXPORTS as much as it is hurting the Russian EXPORTS. US shale oil is now able to meet their local demand and has not been exported in any significant quantity so far. I do agree that the crude price dictates the economic viability of shale extraction however in the short term they are all good as long as the US demand can absorb their production.
> On the other hand crude or any of its derivatives is the back bone of Russian EXPORTS. Even short term swings in the price will have serious consequences for Russians fiscal management. Perfect example of the term "financial terrorism".



I agree with @senheiser here. Lower oil prices may not at all be sustainable long term for US and its allies.

US oil companies need higher revenue.

As Senheiser put, lower revenue means lower investment in shale exploration, which will hurt the already aching US shale "revolution." You may call it an environmental disaster ignored by the media as they are too concerned with the air in Beijing.

Also, US Middle Eastern allies depend on many social spending items to keep their population under dictatorial control. They need high oil prices to sustain their "daddy-style" economic structure. If oil prices resists to increase, then, we may anticipate social/political crises in these regimes, which would depress their oil production and send the prices skyrocketing again. 

The present situation is less manageable for the US and its monarchies than Russia. This is more so when we add the China factor in the medium term.

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## raazh

senheiser said:


> only 33% of Russian exports are crude oil
> View attachment 133061
> 
> 
> What you dont get is that America is uses the dollar while russia is paying in ruble for its exploration. Russia is much cheaper to produce and explore


33% of exports is not small by any means .. 1/3rd of the total volume. Cant read the Charts bcz its in Russian, can u translate the total composition of the exports ??


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## TaiShang

*Russia develops hybrid fusion-fission reactor, offers China role*
Published time: October 15, 2014 09:41 





The view of the Kurchatov Institute National Research Center, Moscow.(RIA Novosti / Alexey Kudenko)

China, Nuclear, Russia, Science
Russia is developing a hybrid nuclear reactor that uses both nuclear fusion and fission, said head of leading nuclear research facility. *The project is open for international collaboration, particularly from Chinese scientists.*

A hybrid nuclear reactor is a sort of stepping stone to building a true nuclear fusion reactor. It uses a fusion reaction as a source of neutrons to initiate a fission reaction in a ‘blanket’ of traditional nuclear fuel.

The approach has a number of potential benefits in terms of safety, non-proliferation and cost of generated energy, and Russia is developing such a hybrid reactor, according to Mikhail Kovalchuk, director of the Kurchatov Research Center.

*“Today we have started the realization of a distinctively new project. We are trying to combine a schematically operational nuclear plant reactor with a ‘tokamak’ to create a hybrid reactor,” he told RIA Novosti, referring to a type of fusion reactor design.*

*“This project is open for our colleagues, the Chinese in the first place. It's being discussed,” he added.*

Being a leading producer in civilian nuclear energy industry, Russia would benefit from improving its plant designs. A hybrid fusion-fission reactor may be several times more efficient than a traditional fission reactor. And building one is “a goal for tomorrow” rather than the distant future, as is the case for a fusion reactor like the famous France-based International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) that Russia collaborates on, Kovalchuk said.







International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor.(AFP Photo / Gerard Julien)

Harnessing nuclear fusion for energy generation has been elusive for years. So far no industrial-scale design managed to produce more energy than it consumes to start the reaction, though the California-based National Ignition Facility (NIF) was reported to have achieved this goal on lab-scale by bombarding a fuel pellet with 192 powerful lasers.

But nuclear fusion produces neutrons, and those can initiate fission in traditional nuclear fuel like uranium or plutonium. In a hybrid reactor the core fusion zone consumes energy to heat up outer fissile blanket, which on its part generates energy.

A hybrid reactor plant would likely be even more costly that regular nuclear power plants are, considering the complexities of the design. But it is inherently safer, since the reaction in the fissile blanket would be sub-critical, that is, it won't sustain itself. In an emergency it could be simply stopped in a matter of seconds by turning off the fusion core, as opposed to using dampening rods in a traditional reactor.

Another benefit of a hybrid design is that it ‘burns down’ fissile materials leaving little by-products. So it won't produce radioactive waste and can even treat spent nuclear fuel from regular reactors.

Rather than taking NIF's pellet-and-lasers design for the fusion reactor, Russia wants to use a tokamak, a reactor that suspends superheated plasma with powerful magnetic fields, as the core of a hybrid reactor. ITER uses the design too.

A similar tokamak-based project of a hybrid fusion-fission nuclear reactor is being developed at the University of Texas at Austin, although researchers there eye nuclear waste disposal rather than electricity generation as the goal.

***

On the other, and to have some fun:

*Calling Russia ‘threat to humanity’ puts Obama’s sanity in doubt - Medvedev*





Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, left, gives interview to CNBS in Moscow. Right: journalist Geoff Cutmore.(RIA Novosti / Ekaterina Shtukina)

The Russian PM has suggested that Obama’s charges against Russia were caused by a *“brain aberration” *and added that such rhetoric saddened him.

*“I am very upset by the fact that President Obama, while speaking from the United Nations’ podium and listing the threats and challenges humanity is currently facing, put Ebola in first place, the Russian Federation second and the Islamic State organization was only in the third place. I don’t even want to comment on this, this is some sort of aberration in the brain,” Dmitry Medvedev said in an interview with CNBC television.*

The top Russian official stressed that his country was not isolating itself from the rest of the world, but sought mutually beneficial cooperation with foreign nations. “We want to communicate with all civilized peoples on friendly grounds. Of course, this includes our partners from the United States of America, but for this the situation must be leveled,” Medvedev said.

However, the Russian PM also noted that the Western sanctions have inflicted considerable damage to Russia’s cooperation with the US, and without cancellation of this policy there can be no return to partnership.

“_Let us be frank, it was not us who invented these sanctions, they were invented by our partners in the international community. As our saying goes, let God be their judge. Without any doubt we can survive these sanctions, I am sure that sometime later the sanctions will evaporate, simply cease to exist. But there is no doubt that they have dealt some damage to our relations_.”

Medvedev ruled out the possibility of an immediate reset in relations between Russia and the West, adding that he expected the process to composed of at least two stages.

“_What sort of reset can be there under such conditions? We must first distance from this all and return to a normal position, at least to the starting position and only then we can start elaborating on the development of relations in the future_,” he said.

*The Russian PM also stressed that Russia can and will find new partners for routine trade and normal investment projects.*

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## terranMarine

That's why the Americans want the missile shield surrounding Russia, the American government see our good neighbor as some virus comparable to Ebola.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great news ....good for nuclear technology


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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> I forget, what about Russia selling Su35 fighter or China buying Su35 case ??????



We ever heard from Chinese PDF members that the purchase is just a rumour. Because Su35 is aged aircraft, and China doesn't need to buy it. Whoever said that, can confirm my words ?
Will we wait for the official news next month?


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> We ever heard from Chinese PDF members that the purchase is just a rumour. Because Su35 is aged aircraft, and China doesn't need to buy it. Whoever said that, can confirm my words ?
> Will we wait for the official news next month?


Russia willing to sell Su-35 to China, only problem is the price & numbers. 

Chinese ordered cheap price & small quantity, but Russian wanna sell more $$ from Su35 deal. Anyway i believe the Su35 will deliver to PLAAF about 24x ~ 100x in the future.


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## Beidou2020

If Russia and China is taken out by the West, this world is finished.

The only barrier to complete Western dominance is Russia and China.

The West has gone into hyper-aggresive mode as it sees it power weakening and going into imperial overdrive to stop the decline.

The Western globalists seek to establish the Western-created New World Order and they see Russia and China as their main obstacles to their grand global project.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Beidou2020 said:


> If Russia and China is taken out by the West, this world is finished.
> 
> The only barrier to complete Western dominance is Russia and China.
> 
> The West has gone into hyper-aggresive mode as it sees it power weakening and going into imperial overdrive to stop the decline.
> 
> The Western globalists seek to establish the Western-created New World Order and they see Russia and China as their main obstacles to their grand global project.



As far as I can see the world economy has grown significantly since the end of WW2.

If you had to give somebody a pat on the back for that...which sounds like a more logical choice:
A) The West
B) Russia/China

hmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Beidou2020

Peter C said:


> As far as I can see the world economy has grown significantly since the end of WW2.
> 
> If you had to give somebody a pat on the back for that...which sounds like a more logical choice:
> A) The West
> B) Russia/China
> 
> hmmmmmmmmmmmm



There are only 2 groups of people in the world.
Those that are willing to be slaves to the Western masters vs those that refuse to succumb to Western masters.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Beidou2020 said:


> There are only 2 groups of people in the world.
> Those that are willing to be slaves to the Western masters vs those that refuse to succumb to Western masters.



The majority of this planet has moved from societies which worried about where their next meal will come from to societies who debate which smartphone is best.

You just yap all you want about being "slaves" and keep your eyes closed about what really happened.


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## Beidou2020

Peter C said:


> The majority of this planet has moved from societies which worried about where their next meal will come from to societies who debate which smartphone is best.
> 
> You just yap all you want about being "slaves" and keep your eyes closed about what really happened.



Tell that to the 3 million dead Iraqis, 10 million dead Vietnamese, millions of children butchered by the human butchering machine that is the US.

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## BoQ77

I guess China would deny, because their technology more advance than Russia.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Beidou2020 said:


> Tell that to the 3 million dead Iraqis, 10 million dead Vietnamese, millions of children butchered by the human butchering machine that is the US.



Still less than the number of people who died under Mao..and under the number killed by Stalin.


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## Beidou2020

Peter C said:


> Still less than the number of people who died under Mao..and under the number killed by Stalin.



Number killed under Mao is grossly exaggerated by Western propaganda. They just make up random numbers as they go along.

But the number of humans killed by the US is grossly underestimated as the US hides the real death toll to save face.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Beidou2020 said:


> Number killed under Mao is grossly exaggerated by Western propaganda. They just make up random numbers as they go along.
> 
> But the number of humans killed by the US is grossly underestimated as the US hides the real death toll to save face.



You want to post here, for the record, that you believe Mao was responsible for less than the 13M deaths you are attributing to the American War machine?


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## key-CN

Peter C said:


> Still less than the number of people who died under Mao..and under the number killed by Stalin.


Syria war is not over yet，End of the war to take statistics.

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## Beidou2020

Peter C said:


> You want to post here, for the record, that you believe Mao was responsible for less than the 13M deaths you are attributing to the American War machine?



I have not counted the number of humans killed in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, all the deaths in Latin America, in Korea, drones, US-sponsored coups like in Ukraine, etc

US is not just evil, its pure evil.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Beidou2020 said:


> I have not counted the number of humans killed in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, all the deaths in Latin America, in Korea, drones, US-sponsored coups like in Ukraine, etc
> 
> US is not just evil, its pure evil.



you going to add the dinosaurs to that count to?

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## TheMatador

China to safeguard WWII victory, post-war order with Russia


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## atatwolf

Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine... 

The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.

Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.

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## BDforever

TheMatador said:


> China to safeguard WWII victory, post-war order with Russia


why tittle changed ?


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## Aepsilons

TheMatador said:


> China to safeguard WWII victory, post-war order with Russia



The article mentions nothing of the sort. Sensational title choice, tho, on your part.



atatwolf said:


> Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine...
> 
> The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.
> 
> Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.



The Russians are opportunists. They will say one thing and do another; for example, right now, Russia is offering to build a pipeline from Sakhalin to Hokkaido. 

While at the same time receiving Mr. Li. In the end, national interests come first. It does not serve Russian interests to have a hostile Japan, or to have Japan close its markets to Russian energy exports.

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## atatwolf

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The article mentions nothing of the sort. Sensational title choice, tho, on your part.
> 
> 
> 
> The Russians are opportunists. They will say one thing and do another; for example, right now, Russia is offering to build a pipeline from Sakhalin to Hokkaido.
> 
> While at the same time receiving Mr. Li. In the end, national interests come first. It does not serve Russian interests to have a hostile Japan, or to have Japan close its markets to Russian energy exports.


One has to be a geopolitical dummy to just believe Russia on its words. If you want to understand Russia or any country for that matter, look at what it does, not what it says.

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## Aepsilons

atatwolf said:


> One has to be a geopolitical dummy to just believe Russia on its words. If you want to understand Russia or any country for that matter, look at what it does, not what it says.



Absolutely correct @atatwolf ! Welcome back, by the way.

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## BDforever

atatwolf said:


> Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine...
> 
> The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.
> 
> Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.


praising russia by turkish member is really unusual


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## atatwolf

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Absolutely correct @atatwolf ! Welcome back, by the way.


Welcome back to you too  

What is your avatar?

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## Aepsilons

atatwolf said:


> Welcome back to you too
> 
> What is your avatar?



Bunny with moon cakes ! Festival time, bro. 

Hahahaha!


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## cnleio

atatwolf said:


> Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine...
> 
> The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.
> 
> Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.


Drunk more... LOL

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## Aepsilons

cnleio said:


> Drunk more... LOL




Putin knows how to play politics, my friend:

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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Putin knows how to play politics, my friend:



Ha, Ha, Ha!!! That last pic is gold!. Abe trying to cop a feel... Putin with the rejection.

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## atatwolf

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Putin knows how to play politics, my friend:


Compare these photos of friendship between Russian and Japanese leaders with the picture above with the Chinese leader where he cracks a fake smile ... LOL

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## Aepsilons

atatwolf said:


> Compare these photos of friendship between Russian and Japanese leaders with the picture above with the Chinese leader where he cracks a fake smile ... LOL



LOL !



SvenSvensonov said:


> Ha, Ha, Ha!!! That last pic is gold!. Abe trying to cop a feel... Putin with the rejection.



That's what I was thinking, too! A sense of unease...actually.


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## cnleio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Putin knows how to play politics, my friend:


Putin also thanks to Japan sanction, Good job Abe !

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## Mercenary

Japan is no longer an expansionist country like it was during the 1930's.

China on the other hand has inherited Japan's mantra of being the leading expansionist power in Asia.

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## SvenSvensonov

cnleio said:


> Putin also thanks to Japan sanction, Good job Abe !



Japan's sanctions on Russia were stupid and ill advised. Fortunately both sides appear willing and able to find a solution and I hope for a beleaguered Russian and Japanese economic climate and for the good people of both nations that a peaceful end to the sanctions by Japan comes soon. The Russian government I don't like, but the people deserve better than we have allowed them.

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## Aepsilons

cnleio said:


> Putin also thanks to Japan sanction, Good job Abe !




The sanctions were very limited, a token sanction, if you may. It hasn't hindered trade, in fact, the Russians have been the ones actively seeking an agreement with Japan to construct the oil pipeline. 

Despite the sanctions, bro, Japan and Russia conducted joint naval exercises late last month. Tho it will never be printed in western media. FYI.

Japan, Russia to run naval rescue exercises as planned- Nikkei Asian Review

Japan Plans Joint Navy Exercises With Russia Late September | Military & Intelligence | RIA Novosti

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## ChineseTiger1986

SvenSvensonov said:


> Japan's sanctions in Russia were stupid and ill advised. Fortunately both sides appear willing and able to find a solution and I hope for a beleaguered Russian and Japanese economic climate and for the good people of both nations that a peaceful end to the sanctions by Japan comes soon. The Russian government I don't like, but the people deserve better than we have allowed them.



Check this.

How Japan getting caught in the dilemma between the US/Russia conflict

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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Despite the sanctions, bro, Japan and Russia conducted joint naval exercises late last month. Tho it will never be printed in western media. FYI.



The NYTimes and the UK's Telegraph seem to be the only "western" media organization to post this information, it seems our traditional sources are allergic to painting Russia in a positive light. That being said the great thing about living in the west, a west that doesn't restrict my viewing ability, is that if I want to read RT or Presstv or CCTV I have the option.

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## Aepsilons

SvenSvensonov said:


> Japan's sanctions in Russia were stupid and ill advised. Fortunately both sides appear willing and able to find a solution and I hope for a beleaguered Russian and Japanese economic climate and for the good people of both nations that a peaceful end to the sanctions by Japan comes soon. The Russian government I don't like, but the people deserve better than we have allowed them.



Absolutely true, @SvenSvensonov . I personally was against the sanctions and I think that it was lack of foresight on Abe's part to implement it. However, objectively speaking, he and his LDP establishment implemented a limited sanction of Russia to achieve two goals: 1) To support the European Union and the United States in regards to the Ukrainian situation; and as a strategic MDT ally of the United States, Japan is obliged to stand shoulder to shoulder with our strategic ally. Tho it is given leeway to project that to the best of the nation's interest. 2) To secure support of the United States' for Japan's implementation of Collective Self Defense and to take up a wider offensive strategy , concession was required and Abe thought it wise to implement the sanctions as a move that would not agitate the United States. Afterall, imagine how it would look like to one's ally if we were to increase military and economic cooperation with a nation (Russia) that was at odds with one's own strategic and Treaty Ally? Not very good, right? Just like in any relationship, one has to analyze the best plan of action, and Japan has, in my opinion, thought it wise to implement a 'give and take' policy in regards to its relationship with both the United States and the Russian Federation.


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## SvenSvensonov

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Check this.
> 
> How Japan getting caught in the dilemma between the US/Russia conflict



No question about it, Japan as a US ally has tough choices to make when its business and political relations are threatened negative international politics. I wish we would stay out of Japan's business... but we won't.

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## Aepsilons

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Check this.
> 
> How Japan getting caught in the dilemma between the US/Russia conflict



In the field of political science, analysts will refer to this dynamic as: counterbalancing strategem. Read up on it.


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## atatwolf

SvenSvensonov said:


> Japan's sanctions in Russia were stupid and ill advised. Fortunately both sides appear willing and able to find a solution and I hope for a beleaguered Russian and Japanese economic climate and for the good people of both nations that a peaceful end to the sanctions by Japan comes soon. The Russian government I don't like, but the people deserve better than we have allowed them.


Because of US pressure, Japan had to put sanctions on Russia. Japan shouldn't have :/ Even Turkey didn't put any sanctions on Russia. Turkey-Turkic countries, Russia and Japan make good combo.

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## SvenSvensonov

atatwolf said:


> Because of US pressure, Japan had to put sanctions on Russia. Japan shouldn't have :/ Even Turkey didn't put any sanctions on Russia. Turkey-Turkic countries, Russia and Japan make good combo.



They would make a good combo, though the economies of all the nations mention are experiencing economic issues that wouldn't be alleviated by increased trade with each other. Still as a political and technological bloc, this one would be massive. Russia, for all its reliance on the west, is still a tech leader... Japan too. Turkey is an up-and-comer while the Turkic nations will reap the benefits. It's a pipe dream, but an interesting case to study.

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## cnleio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The sanctions were very limited, a token sanction, if you may. It hasn't hindered trade, in fact, the Russians have been the ones actively seeking an agreement with Japan to construct the oil pipeline.
> 
> Despite the sanctions, bro, Japan and Russia conducted joint naval exercises late last month. Tho it will never be printed in western media. FYI.
> 
> Japan, Russia to run naval rescue exercises as planned- Nikkei Asian Review
> 
> Japan Plans Joint Navy Exercises With Russia Late September | Military & Intelligence | RIA Novosti


After 2014 SCO Sino-Russia military drill in China Inner Mongolia, and Sept.25 Russia hundred fighters joint "Eastern - 2014" exercise in kamchatka peninsula.

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## Steve781

atatwolf said:


> Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine...
> 
> The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.
> 
> Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.


Russia used to have a policy of trying to be friendly with everybody. But the Ukraine crisis has changed that. They seem to be picking sides


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## Aepsilons

atatwolf said:


> Because of US pressure, Japan had to put sanctions on Russia. Japan shouldn't have :/ Even Turkey didn't put any sanctions on Russia. Turkey-Turkic countries, Russia and Japan make good combo.



We had to, bro. Realistically and on the ground, Japan is developing greater and wider partnerships with Russia. We even conducted naval exercises this year, which would be one of the first times we did this as it was conducted near the Sea of Okhotsk, deep inside the Russian Far East. 

These sanctions on Russia are limited; as they target officials in Crimea, which to us, is infinitesimal because the majority of the $30 Billion bilateral trade between Russia and Japan focuses on Japan's energy imports from Russia's Far East, as well as Japanese sales of industrial material to Moscow and in the core republics that make up the Russian Federation. 

Russia is a viable energy partner; it is rich and abundant in natural resources and securing Russian collaboration will help us with energy dependency. This will prove vital as we reorient and re-start our nuclear reactors next fiscal year. In addition, Russia has always been a potent competitor throughout our history, and having this competitor at working relationship is preferable for us. 

Lastly, Japan has now secured Collective Self Defense, we've retained a collaborative relationship with Russia (economic and a developing military cooperation), and at the same time we've retained and secured America's confidence. 

It's a win win situation for us.



cnleio said:


> After 2014 SCO Sino-Russia military drill in China Inner Mongolia, and Sept.25 Russia hundred fighters joint "Eastern - 2014" exercise in kamchatka peninsula.



Good to see collaboration between Russia and China. We, too, are collaborating with the Russian Pacific Fleet and Japan Maritime Self Defense Force's 4th Escort Fleet. For political reasons, it is not heralded as openly. You understand why.


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## cnleio

atatwolf said:


> Because of US pressure, Japan had to put sanctions on Russia. Japan shouldn't have :/ Even Turkey didn't put any sanctions on Russia. Turkey-Turkic countries, Russia and Japan make good combo.


HEHE... Okay u also understand Japan policy "under U.S pressure".

BTW don't miss this thread, it's special to show u "How weak China military force". It get more & more pics now. 
Rising China military force

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## Steve781

[


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## SvenSvensonov

cnleio said:


> HEHE... Okay u also understand Japan policy "under U.S pressure".
> 
> BTW don't miss this thread, it's special to show u "How weak China military force".
> Rising China military force



The only people that think China has a weak military are those with their heads buried in their arse, those that refuse to see China as anything other than a nation of peasants, or those that think China is still stuck in the 80's. People on forums such as this might not, but the US military knows better than to think the ways I stated. China is fast growing, its military rising and we are keeping an eye on it.

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## somsak

Japan good relation to Russia is benefitial to China. Currently China silk road project is the very key to China and Russia success from being contained or sanction by US. To success on this, a whole new competing web of ecosystems must be estrablished. The bigger this networks has members, the better. Japan Korea was in China ancient trade route, why not. Only Japan be made continental can she liberate from US. I suggest China make a long bridge to connect Japan from Korea andRussia make a long bridge to connect from Sakalin. Once Japan is unislandized, troops and arms from continental can reach islands protecting Japanese population. That will changge the equation when Japan negoyltiate the US bases.

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## Keel

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Putin knows how to play politics, my friend:



all those are historical before Japan's due compliance to the US led sanction on Russia.

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## Steve781

somsak said:


> Japan good relation to Russia is benefitial to China. Currently China silk road project is the very key to China and Russia success from being contained or sanction by US. To success on this, a whole new competing web of ecosystems must be estrablished. The bigger this networks has members, the better. Japan Korea was in China ancient trade route, why not. Only Japan be made continental can she liberate from US. I suggest China make a long bridge to connect Japan from Korea andRussia make a long bridge to connect from Sakalin. Once Japan is unislandized, troops and arms from continental can reach islands protecting Japanese population. That will changge the equation when Japan negoyltiate the US bases.


I always thought that Japan, being an island nation, saw itself as apart from the rest of Asia.


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## somsak

Topic has nothing to do.with article. mislieading


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## Aepsilons

somsak said:


> Japan good relation to Russia is benefitial to China. Currently China silk road project is the very key to China and Russia success from being contained or sanction by US. To success on this, a whole new competing web of ecosystems must be estrablished. The bigger this networks has members, the better. Japan Korea was in China ancient trade route, why not. Only Japan be made continental can she liberate from US. I suggest China make a long bridge to connect Japan from Korea andRussia make a long bridge to connect from Sakalin. Once Japan is unislandized, troops and arms from continental can reach islands protecting Japanese population. That will changge the equation when Japan negoyltiate the US bases.




Building a land route has already been studied. It would have to be constructed from the northern tip of Shikoku -- connecting to Tsushima Island -- and connect to the southern tip of Korea near Pusan. This would be the most probably construction site. 
This would manifest only , of course, if relations between Korea and Japan were to improve beyond the current level. Which is actually quite dismal. lol.



Keel said:


> all those are historical before Japan's due compliance to the US led sanction on Russia.



Read my posts in this thread in its entirety. Then you will have a wider , refined conceptualization of the issue.



somsak said:


> Once Japan is unislandized, troops and arms from continental can reach islands protecting Japanese population.



The land route would connect Japan to South Korea, not to China. Second, I don't think Japan needs any protection from any continental power in Asia. lol.


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## Keel

somsak said:


> Japan good relation to Russia is benefitial to China. Currently China silk road project is the very key to China and Russia success from being contained or sanction by US. To success on this, a whole new competing web of ecosystems must be estrablished. The bigger this networks has members, the better. Japan Korea was in China ancient trade route, why not. Only Japan be made continental can she liberate from US. I suggest China make a long bridge to connect Japan from Korea andRussia make a long bridge to connect from Sakalin. Once Japan is unislandized, troops and arms from continental can reach islands protecting Japanese population. That will changge the equation when Japan negoyltiate the US bases.



China's vision of "new silk road" never involves Japan
Japan is USA's closest ally in the Pacific apart from Ozies
Japan is rapidly expanding its military power
China has territorial conflicts with Japan
Russia has territorial conflicts with Japan
Japan has conflicts with all its neighbours
The connection can only be resctricted to trade and culture; nothing more than those.


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## Aepsilons

somsak said:


> Only Japan be made continental can she liberate from US



This will not happen any time soon , I would like to lecture to you and others here about Japanese history in context to the policy of alliance systems of the past. Japan , in recent history, has always sought after alliances with powerful nations. During the late 19th century Japan was allied to both the British and Prussian Empire; in the early 20th century, prior to WWI, Japanese Empire was allied to the British Empire. Then in WWI, we were allied to the British and Americans. In WWII, we were ostracized by the British and Americans because of the decision to invade Manchuria and China; thus forcing Japan to sign the Tripartite Agreement in 1939; creating the Axis Alliance. Japan should learn from our failure in WWII; and that is to avoid entangling alliances.



Keel said:


> Japan is rapidly expanding its military power



We are not a 'rapidly' expanding military power. How can a nation that bases its foreign military policy to those of defensive posture be considered an 'expanding power'.




Keel said:


> China has territorial conflicts with Japan



Territorial conflicts? No. Territorial disagreements as in regards to islands in the East Sea, but there have been no military conflicts or provocations that had led to military units being fired upon.




Keel said:


> Russia has territorial conflicts with Japan



Incorrect. Tho Japan opposes Russian occupation of Southern Kuril Islands, there have been no military exigencies on either on the JSDF or with our Russian counterparts.




Keel said:


> Japan has conflicts with all its neighbours



Disagreement is the better term. Lastly, and China is devoid of territorial differences with India, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Korea, Japan ?


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## Keel

Mercenary said:


> *Japan is no longer an expansionist country* like it was during the 1930's.
> 
> China on the other hand has inherited Japan's mantra of being the leading expansionist power in Asia.



You are outdated on Japan's military build-up and its process of amending its constitution for a more aggressive Japan

On the other hand we have to face formidable enemy(-ies) and we have a wide sovereign area to cover. Our military industry started late and it is still backward generally when compared to the most advanced ones


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## Aepsilons

Mercenary said:


> Japan is no longer an expansionist country like it was during the 1930's.
> 
> China on the other hand has inherited Japan's mantra of being the leading expansionist power in Asia.



Precisely !



Keel said:


> You are outdated on Japan's military build-up and its process of amending its constitution for a more aggressive Japan
> 
> On the other hand we have to face formidable enemy(-ies) and we have a wide sovereign area to cover. Our military industry started late and it is still backward generally when compared to the most advanced ones



Tell me, specifically, how has Japan been 'aggressive' as of late ?


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## Keel

Nihonjin1051 said:


> This will not happen any time soon , I would like to lecture to you and others here about Japanese history in context to the policy of alliance systems of the past. Japan , in recent history, has always sought after alliances with powerful nations. During the late 19th century Japan was allied to both the British and Prussian Empire; in the early 20th century, prior to WWI, Japanese Empire was allied to the British Empire. Then in WWI, we were allied to the British and Americans. In WWII, we were ostracized by the British and Americans because of the decision to invade Manchuria and China; thus forcing Japan to sign the Tripartite Agreement in 1939; creating the Axis Alliance. Japan should learn from our failure in WWII; and that is to avoid entangling alliances.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct. We are not a 'rapidly' expanding military power. How can a nation that bases its foreign military policy to those of defensive posture be considered an 'expanding power'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Territorial conflicts? No. Territorial disagreements as in regards to islands in the East Sea, but there have been no military conflicts or provocations that had led to military units being fired upon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. Tho Japan opposes Russian occupation of Southern Kuril Islands, there have been no military exigencies on either on the JSDF or with our Russian counterparts.
> 
> Disagreement is the better term. Lastly, and China is devoid of territorial differences with India, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Korea, Japan ?



Territorial conflicts - YES
Military conflicts - NO, or NOT YET!
I am not denying our terriorial conflicts with the above - some intense ( Vietnam, the Philippines, Japan) some softened (India ) some rarely in discussion at all ( Malaysia, S Korea, Brunei)
We just have a long border and coast line; and a wide territory to cover, that's all!


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## Aepsilons

Keel said:


> Territorial conflicts - YES
> Military conflicts - NO, or NOT YET!
> I am not denying our terriorial conflicts with the above - some intense ( Vietnam, the Philippines, Japan) some softened (India ) some rarely in discussion at all ( Malaysia, S Korea, Brunei)
> We just have a long border and coast line; and a wide territory to cover, that's all!



I find it disingenuous that you refer to Japanese-Chinese maritime row as being "intense" and the territorial issue with India as "softened". India and China fought a border war in '62, and have had bloody skirmishes in the past, and continue to have border intrusions as of this year.Despite the fact there has never been actual live firing or exigencies between both our nations' forces. Not since the end of the War.

Maritime issue with Japan and China must and will be ironed out in the future; and if the 2008 East China Sea Consensus serves as a case basis, we see that a diplomatic solution can be realized.

Lastly, a conflict between Japan and China over maritime row is counterproductive to the entire region. It would serve neither Japan's or China's interests. Do you know how much trade Japan and China have annually? It is* $320 Billion (and rising).*The largest in the entire region. A war between China and Japan would serve the interests of other powers that want a disharmonious East Asia.

Don't fall for the naivety and trap, my friend. Don't be so myopic and narrow minded.


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## Armstrong

@Nihonjin1051 - So Brother, during WW2 Japanese Nationalism was based around veneration for the Emperor...now what is Japanese Nationalism based around ?


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## Keel

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Precisely !
> Tell me, specifically, how has Japan been 'aggressive' as of late ?



who are you going to fool? 

Protests as Abe announces constitutional change - CNN.com
Japan's cabinet approves changes to its pacifist constitution allowing for 'collective self-defence' - Australia Network News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Japan may buy additional F-35 jets if price falls, Onodera says | The Japan Times

Japanese prime minister opens way to send soldiers on foreign missions | Daily Mail Online

Shinzo Abe reveals plans to lift Japan's ban on fighting in conflicts overseas | World news | theguardian.com

Japan’s war potential and the case of the Izumo ‘destroyer’ | East Asia Forum

Chinese anger as Japan launches biggest warship since WWII - Telegraph



Nihonjin1051 said:


> I find it disingenuous that you refer to Japanese-Chinese maritime row as being "intense" and the territorial issue with India as "softened". India and China fought a border war in '62, and have had bloody skirmishes in the past, and continue to have border intrusions as of this year.Despite the fact there has never been actual live firing or exigencies between both our nations' forces. Not since the end of the War.
> 
> Maritime issue with Japan and China must and will be ironed out in the future; and if the 2008 East China Sea Consensus serves as a case basis, we see that a diplomatic solution can be realized.
> 
> Lastly, a conflict between Japan and China over maritime row is counterproductive to the entire region. It would serve neither Japan's or China's interests. Do you know how much trade Japan and China have annually? It is* $320 Billion (and rising).*The largest in the entire region. A war between China and Japan would serve the interests of other powers that want a disharmonious East Asia.
> 
> Don't fall for the naivety and trap, my friend. Don't be so myopic and narrow minded.



I am not ruling out trade and other exchanges
But Japan is a country that follows closely the American directives on political issues my friend. You are siding more with our potential enemies like India, the Philippines, Vietnam. Action is louder than words my friend!

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## Aepsilons

Keel said:


> who are you going to fool?
> 
> Protests as Abe announces constitutional change - CNN.com
> Japan's cabinet approves changes to its pacifist constitution allowing for 'collective self-defence' - Australia Network News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> Japan may buy additional F-35 jets if price falls, Onodera says | The Japan Times
> 
> Japanese prime minister opens way to send soldiers on foreign missions | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Shinzo Abe reveals plans to lift Japan's ban on fighting in conflicts overseas | World news | theguardian.com
> 
> Japan’s war potential and the case of the Izumo ‘destroyer’ | East Asia Forum
> 
> Chinese anger as Japan launches biggest warship since WWII - Telegraph




1. The F-35II As are to replace our aging fleet of F-4 fighters. 

2. The Izumo and Hyuga are light carriers, we need them to project power because Japan , as an archepelagic nation, requires a naval force that has the capability to move forces from island to island. 

3. Japanese soldiers going abroad will be doing so through peace keeping duties and will be doing so under the banner of the United Nations Peace Keeping Force. The JSDF , JGSDF won't be sending armies for expeditionary campaigns. lol.



Keel said:


> I am not ruling out trade and other exchanges
> But Japan is a country that follows closely the American directives on political issues my friend. You are siding more with our potential enemies like India, the Philippines, Vietnam. Action is louder than words my friend!



1. Has Japan contributed soldiers , aircraft, naval vessels in Operation Desert Storm? In Operation Iraqi Freedom? In Afghanistan? In Syria? In Somalia? In Libya? In Serbia? In Georgia? Have you seen the the activities of JSDF these past 70 some years, my friend ? It was defense posture and maintaining a guard on possible Soviet intrusion. That's it. 

2. I don't understand your fear or weariness of a resurgent Japan when that simply is no the case. First of all, i think you have not read the details of Collective Self Defense. It does not mean Japan has the right to attack first or initiate offensive campaigns. Collective Self Defense explicitly forbids the use of a 'First Strike Initiative'. Rather stipulates that Japan's JSDF can only react and respond if Japanese military units are attacked first, and if allies are under attack, the nation has the legal right to come to the aid of said ally if it wants to. It does not say it will come to the aid, it says that it has the ability to come to the said ally's aid. 

3. Cooperation between Philippines and Vietnam and India and the like are natural. We have economic partnerships there, military cooperation are based on the need to develop military situational awareness, and disaster response readiness.

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## somsak

Nionjin Thats why i say Russia Japan good relation b3nefit China. Coz SK route is very difficult. Therefor Sakarin route is.much better. The rest reasoning is the same.



Keel said:


> China's vision of "new silk road" never involves Japan
> Japan is USA's closest ally in the Pacific apart from Ozies
> Japan is rapidly expanding its military power
> China has territorial conflicts with Japan
> Russia has territorial conflicts with Japan
> Japan has conflicts with all its neighbours
> The connection can only be resctricted to trade and culture; nothing more than those.


 Why donot yiu pull Japan into China Russia side?


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## LowPost

As an advocate of peace I welcome rapport between 中国, 日本 and 俄罗斯.  Just wanted to let you guys know that in contrast to some members here I'm not a warmonger at all. World affairs is a dirty game (quote from mike2000), I'm aware of that, but I believe in peace nonetheless.

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## Aepsilons

rugering said:


> As an advocate of peace I welcome rapport between 中国, 日本 and 俄罗斯.  Just wanted to let you guys know that in contrast to some members here I'm not a warmonger at all. World affairs is a dirty game (quote from mike2000), I'm aware of that, but I believe in peace nonetheless.



Its sobering to come across Chinese members here that hold that view. I value you and another member @Tang Yi . To peace between our two brother countries. For two thousand years Japan had developed with China. Here is to two thousand more years !

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## Aepsilons

Armstrong said:


> @Nihonjin1051 - So Brother, during WW2 Japanese Nationalism was based around veneration for the Emperor...now what is Japanese Nationalism based around ?



The ultranationalism of the past was due in part to rabid propaganda ministry. Nowadays, I would say that nationalism is very limited in Japan. There is no wide scale ultra-nationalist groups or anyone voicing about Japanese racial superiority (which was common in the past). Compared to Americans, I'd say we're not as nationalistic. Additionally, Japanese don't usually protest en mass , its not in our culture. We value order, strict adherence to hierarchy and harmony. 

We experimented in excessive ultra nationalism in the past. It didn't really do us any good...

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## Keel

Nihonjin1051 said:


> 1. The F-35II As are to replace our aging fleet of F-4 fighters.
> 
> 2. The Izumo and Hyuga are light carriers, we need them to project power because Japan , as an archepelagic nation, requires a naval force that has the capability to move forces from island to island.
> 
> 3. Japanese soldiers going abroad will be doing so through peace keeping duties and will be doing so under the banner of the United Nations Peace Keeping Force. The JSDF , JGSDF won't be sending armies for expeditionary campaigns. lol.
> 
> 1. Has Japan contributed soldiers , aircraft, naval vessels in Operation Desert Storm? In Operation Iraqi Freedom? In Afghanistan? In Syria? In Somalia? In Libya? In Serbia? In Georgia? Have you seen the the activities of JSDF these past 70 some years, my friend ? It was defense posture and maintaining a guard on possible Soviet intrusion. That's it.
> 
> 2. I don't understand your fear or weariness of a resurgent Japan when that simply is no the case. First of all, i think you have not read the details of Collective Self Defense. It does not mean Japan has the right to attack first or initiate offensive campaigns. Collective Self Defense explicitly forbids the use of a 'First Strike Initiative'. Rather stipulates that Japan's JSDF can only react and respond if Japanese military units are attacked first, and if allies are under attack, the nation has the legal right to come to the aid of said ally if it wants to. It does not say it will come to the aid, it says that it has the ability to come to the said ally's aid.
> 
> 3. Cooperation between Philippines and Vietnam and India and the like are natural. We have economic partnerships there, military cooperation are based on the need to develop military situational awareness, and disaster response readiness.



We dont trust your Abe.
You have far more other fighter jets to choose from than F-35 for your "replacementt" on top of your own "stealth planes" in the making
All are seen as a rising, heavily militarized and aggressive Japan. Sorry to tell the truth!


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## mike2000

I dont understand what memebers here are trying to prove with Pictures.lool Of course every leaders will have smiling pics with another leader he visits even if that country is a rival/ennemy. Do you think if/when Xi visits Japan to meet Abe/or vice versa he wont be smiling and saying some nice words about Japan(well at least for that day.lol) and trying to promote more partnerships as well. Of course he will, Thats the usual protocole. So pics doesnt mean anything about one country relationship with another

Coming to topic, China and Russia cant contain Japan no matter how hard they try, Simply because the U.S has a huge presence in Japan. So they being able to contain Japan will mean they have been able to contained the U.S as well(good luck with that.lol). In fact im afraid its the U.S(with its partner Japan) who will be doing the containing if anything.lool Since they are still both combined way more powerful/advance than Russia and China.

Its true Japan has several issues with which will prevent it working or partnering with Russia anytime soon(not for a longggggggg time) of which are: Many of us dont even mention it that much but both countries are still technically at war with each other(just like North and south Korea) since they never signed a peace treaty after world war II, secondly Russia still retains/controls the islands it seized from Japan at the end of the war till today and will never return it back(so a long term problem/upstacle for good relations), Thirdly Russia keeps sending soldiers/building military posts/and carrying out war games in this islands claimed by Japan close to Japanese shores everytime, they also send bombers/fighters to spy on Japan here and then which creates tension/mistrusts(thankfully the U.S is there to prevent any miscalculations and restore order/act as deterent), Fourthly Russia has nothing much to offer Japan tbh apart from its natural resources which Japan can source from any region/market so Russia has little to no Leverage over Japan(in fact they have none at all.lol), Lastly and most importantly, the U.S is still Japan largest/sole security guarantor/main ally and has its largest oversea military base in Japan and its presence there will only increase with time as Asia becomes more militarize with the Rise of China and Russia trying to reaffirm itself in the region.The U.S will never allow any rapproachment bewteen Japan and Russia, since the U.S still considers Russia a regional rival ansd Japan will always(well in the long term) remain a U.S/western ally since it serves its interests as well, afterall what can Russia offer Japan? Nothing.lol So if anything Russia has nothing in common with Japan apart from selling its raw materials to Japan.lool

This doesnt means Russia will/should stop all trade with Japan, of course not, we live in a globalize world. Even China and Japan who are sworn ennemies trade with each other more than any country in Asia(even more than Japan trades with its ally the U.S). So Russia can sell gas/oil/build pipeline to Japan and Russia can import more high tech electronics/automibiles etc goods from Japan (win win), but this doesnt means they will be ally/partner anytime soon if ever. So business is business and politics is politics.


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## Keel

somsak said:


> Nionjin Thats why i say Russia Japan good relation b3nefit China. Coz SK route is very difficult. Therefor Sakarin route is.much better. The rest reasoning is the same.
> 
> Why donot yiu pull Japan into China Russia side?



Wishful thinking!
And the Japanese is not showing any favourable gesture like giving up the sovereignty claims of Diaoyu Islands for a start. Claiming ownership of the islands is legally wrong on the American and Japanese parts. Read Potsdam Declaration and Cairo Declaration separately please for an understanding of who own Diaoyu Islands legally.


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## Aepsilons

Keel said:


> Wishful thinking!
> And the Japanese is not showing any favourable gesture like giving up the sovereignty claims of Diaoyu Islands for a start. Claiming ownership of the islands is legally wrong on the American and Japanese parts. Read Potsdam Declaration and Cairo Declaration separately please for an understanding of who own Diaoyu Islands legally.














​
The Senkaku Islands were not included in the territory which Japan renounced under Article 2 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951 that legally defined the territory of Japan after World War II. Under Article 3 of the treaty, the islands were placed under the administration of the United States as part of the Nansei Shoto Islands. The Senkaku Islands are included in the areas whose administrative rights were reverted to Japan in accordance with the Agreement between Japan and the United States of America Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands that entered into force in 1972.

The Senkaku Islands have historically and consistently been part of the Nansei Shoto Islands which have been part of the territory of Japan. From 1885, surveys of the Senkaku Islands had been thoroughly conducted by the Government of Japan through the agencies of Okinawa Prefecture and through other means. Through these surveys, it was confirmed that the Senkaku Islands had been not only uninhabited but also showed no trace of having been under the control of the Qing Dynasty of China. Based on this confirmation, the Government of Japan made a Cabinet Decision on January 14, 1895, to erect markers on the islands to formally incorporate the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan. These measures were carried out in accordance with the internationally accepted means of duly acquiring territorial sovereignty under international law (occupation of terra nullius). The Senkaku Islands are not part of Formosa (Taiwan) and the Pescadores Islands that were ceded to Japan from the Qing Dynasty in accordance with Article II of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, concluded in April 1895.

Although the Treaty of Shimonoseki does not clearly define the geographical limits of the island of Formosa and the islands appertaining or belonging to Formosa ceded to Japan by the Qing Dynasty of China, nothing in the negotiation history (or otherwise) supports the interpretation that the Senkaku Islands are included in the island of Formosa and the islands appertaining or belonging to it in Article 2b of the Treaty.

Furthermore, Japan had already undertaken preparation, from 1885, even before the Sino-Japanese War, to formally incorporate the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan while carefully ascertaining that no state including the Qing Dynasty of China had control over the Islands. Following the Cabinet Decision in January 1895, which was made before the concluding of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, the Government of Japan incorporated the Senkaku Islands into Okinawa Prefecture and consistently treated the Islands as part of Okinawa Prefecture, not as an area under the jurisdiction of the Governor-General of Taiwan which was ceded to Japan after the Sino-Japanese War.
These facts make it clear that, both before and after the Sino-Japanese War, the Government of Japan has never regarded or treated the Senkaku Islands as part of the island of Taiwan or islands appertaining or belonging to the island of Taiwan, which had been part of the Qing Dynasty of China. Thus, it is evident that the Senkaku Islands could never have been part of the cession made under the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
Moreover, it was recognized in the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty of 1952 that Japan renounced all right, title and claim to Taiwan, the Pescadores and other islands under Article 2 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty. Against the above background, however, there was absolutely no discussion on territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands in the process of negotiations for the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty. What this means is that it was considered as the rightful premise that the Senkaku Islands were the territory of Japan from before that time.


*Reference:*

Retrieved from: Senkaku Islands Q&A ｜ Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan

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## TheMatador

China alone is enough to inflict a devastating blow on Japan if they forget their status as defeated nation in WW2 and try to become normal. Russia's blessing is just icing on the cake.

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## Beidou2020

Russia and China will bury Japan.

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## Keel

Nihonjin1051 said:


> ​
> The Senkaku Islands were not included in the territory which Japan renounced under Article 2 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951 that legally defined the territory of Japan after World War II. Under Article 3 of the treaty, the islands were placed under the administration of the United States as part of the Nansei Shoto Islands. The Senkaku Islands are included in the areas whose administrative rights were reverted to Japan in accordance with the Agreement between Japan and the United States of America Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands that entered into force in 1972.
> 
> The Senkaku Islands have historically and consistently been part of the Nansei Shoto Islands which have been part of the territory of Japan. From 1885, surveys of the Senkaku Islands had been thoroughly conducted by the Government of Japan through the agencies of Okinawa Prefecture and through other means. Through these surveys, it was confirmed that the Senkaku Islands had been not only uninhabited but also showed no trace of having been under the control of the Qing Dynasty of China. Based on this confirmation, the Government of Japan made a Cabinet Decision on January 14, 1895, to erect markers on the islands to formally incorporate the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan. These measures were carried out in accordance with the internationally accepted means of duly acquiring territorial sovereignty under international law (occupation of terra nullius). The Senkaku Islands are not part of Formosa (Taiwan) and the Pescadores Islands that were ceded to Japan from the Qing Dynasty in accordance with Article II of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, concluded in April 1895.
> 
> Although the Treaty of Shimonoseki does not clearly define the geographical limits of the island of Formosa and the islands appertaining or belonging to Formosa ceded to Japan by the Qing Dynasty of China, nothing in the negotiation history (or otherwise) supports the interpretation that the Senkaku Islands are included in the island of Formosa and the islands appertaining or belonging to it in Article 2b of the Treaty.
> 
> Furthermore, Japan had already undertaken preparation, from 1885, even before the Sino-Japanese War, to formally incorporate the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan while carefully ascertaining that no state including the Qing Dynasty of China had control over the Islands. Following the Cabinet Decision in January 1895, which was made before the concluding of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, the Government of Japan incorporated the Senkaku Islands into Okinawa Prefecture and consistently treated the Islands as part of Okinawa Prefecture, not as an area under the jurisdiction of the Governor-General of Taiwan which was ceded to Japan after the Sino-Japanese War.
> These facts make it clear that, both before and after the Sino-Japanese War, the Government of Japan has never regarded or treated the Senkaku Islands as part of the island of Taiwan or islands appertaining or belonging to the island of Taiwan, which had been part of the Qing Dynasty of China. Thus, it is evident that the Senkaku Islands could never have been part of the cession made under the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
> Moreover, it was recognized in the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty of 1952 that Japan renounced all right, title and claim to Taiwan, the Pescadores and other islands under Article 2 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty. Against the above background, however, there was absolutely no discussion on territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands in the process of negotiations for the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty. What this means is that it was considered as the rightful premise that the Senkaku Islands were the territory of Japan from before that time.
> 
> *Reference:*
> 
> Retrieved from: Senkaku Islands Q&A ｜ Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan



Both Cairo Declaration and Potsdam Declaration should carry a lot more legitimate weight than SF Peace Treaty and other documents that you have mentioned because the later lot does not have our signature on them while the former have all the parties signatures on them after Japan surrendered in WW2.


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## Kyle Sun

atatwolf said:


> Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine...
> 
> The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.
> 
> Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.


You forget the *The Kuril Islands , you stupid cock.*



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Putin knows how to play politics, my friend:


Putin knows how to play politics,Abe also.But Japan will be forced to do something Putin does not like.

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## TaiShang

*Sino-Russian cooperation calls for balancing interests *
By Cui Heng




_Premier Li Keqiang attends a welcoming ceremony as he arrives in Moscow on Sunday for a three-day visit. [zhang duo/Xinhua]_


Premier Li Keqiang's latest visit to Moscow represents his first Russia trip as the top Chinese government leader. The trip has received much international attention in part because any high-level encounter between the two countries amid the EU sanctions against Moscow is worthy of notice. *Li's Russia tour, arranged between his visits to Germany and Italy, reflects China's diplomatic consideration.*

The Ukrainian political crisis, which started in March of this year, was seen as a geopolitical clash between Russia and Europe, similar to other periodical clashes in recent decades. But a reflection on the crisis would suggest that it has changed our era. *"A new international order parallel to the current one will emerge,"* Zhang Xin, a scholar at East China Normal University noted.

Some Western countries, headed by the United States, frequently threaten economic sanctions against Russia to achieve their political goals, only to find the Kremlin composed at countering every single Western threat. As Russia's "de-dolarization" continues, the country is resorting to different international reserve currencies and a different payment system. Russia is also seeking new trade partners and trying to establish new free trade zones to minimize the negative impact, if any, from traditional partners such as the United States and the European Union.

*The decision to schedule Premier Li's Russia visit between his trips to Germany and Italy was risky, because tensions between the EU and Russia had already made the elite in Berlin and Rome nervous. Any comments on the tension could stir up resentment either from Russia or the European Union.*

*In response to the tense Russia-EU relationship, most state leaders would try to avoid meeting both sides at the same time, but the Chinese premier's purposefully planned trip is evidence of China's successful diplomacy, particularly under the "new type of relationship among major powers."* In the "new type of relationship," China-Russia and China-EU cooperation does not go against a third party, meaning that there is no need to choose sides. 

The holding of the 19th China-Russia Prime Minister Meeting is a clear sign that the mechanism is in its maturity. Apart from the regular bilateral meetings between top government leaders, mechanisms at lower levels, such as talks on energy and investment cooperation, are also being held.

These meeting mechanisms are different from those between state leaders in that inter-governmental cooperation is fundamentally aimed at boosting economic and humanitarian ties. It means that while travelling between the European Union and Russia, one has to uphold a neutral stance on sensitive issues, or completely avoid touching upon them. The Li's visit has been hailed as "fruitful," and Moscow was not forced to take sides.

*Of all the 38 deals signed, building the Beijing-Moscow Eurasian High-speed Transport Corridor, and in particular the Moscow-Kazan High-speed Railway project, carries the most significant strategic implications.*

Last year, Chinese President Xi Jinping proposed building the new Silk Road Economic Belt, a strategic concept that many interpreted as "overlapping" with Putin's "Eurasian alliance." The Western media have kept a close eye on such "overlaps" because both strategies are seeking greater influence in the heartland of Eurasia, where collisions may occur. But in the latest meeting between Putin and Xi held earlier this year, the two leaders removed lingering doubts and obstacles regarding such overlaps, marking what is known as the "*strategic docking"* in Sino-Russian ties.

The Beijing-Moscow High-Speed Transport Corridor will be instrumental in building trade and infrastructure across both continents. Although one may question the economic necessity of building such a high-speed railway, Moscow's plan to develop the Siberia in the far east of the country and Beijing's ambition to revitalize its western and northeastern provinces will highly likely make the project a true requirement.

*To make that happen, cementing the Moscow-Kazan high-speed railway is a practical move. Russia only operates one truly high-speed rail - the one that links Moscow and St. Petersburg, which entirely relies on Germany for its technology and equipment. But given the disputes between Russia and the EU over Ukraine, such cooperation is not sustainable, creating an opportunity for China's railway technology. What's more, such a market is also beneficial for China's high-speed railways.*

In addition, Russia needs to upgrade its sports facilities to accommodate the 2018 FIFA World Cup, since most of its stadiums have become obsolete. The large demand for infrastructure will create more opportunities for emerging economies, given Moscow's tense relations with the Western countries. Therefore, if China can transform Sino-Russian economic cooperation so that it is led by investment instead of trade, the foundation of bilateral ties can be consolidated further.

The state-run Russian Railways is one of the largest enterprises in Russia, and enjoys a strong influence in the Russian government. Its president, Vladimir Ivanovich Yakunin, also a government figure, has direct influence over Putin.

Russian Railways once frowned upon the Eastern China-Russian Oil Pipeline, and caused troubles for China using its influence in the Russian parliament. This example shows the significance of the power structure in the Russian society and the importance of balancing the interests of all parties in Sino-Russian cooperation.

_The writer is a Ph.D. student at the Russia Study Centre of East China Normal University._

_The article was first published in Chinese and translated by Chen Boyuan._

_Opinion articles reflect the views of their authors, not necessarily those of China.org.cn._

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## Beidou2020

Western companies are losing marketshare to Chinese companies big time

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## LowPost

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Its sobering to come across Chinese members here that hold that view. I value you and another member @Tang Yi . To peace between our two brother countries. For two thousand years Japan had developed with China. Here is to two thousand more years !



Once again, I'm not a warmonger, but bear in mind I am a patriot also. To tell you the truth, this is why I am disgusted by all these anti-Chinese bigots out there.  I'm glad you're not one of them, though.


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## atatwolf

Japan is reliable partner. China not. That is why Turkey didn't go for Chinese air defence development. Cheating, lying, stealing tech and what not. Russia has the same prblem. Their stuff god also ripped of by Chinese industry.

Russia's policy on eastern flank:

Short term gains: use China

On long term gains: throw China in front of the bus and go with Japan.

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## Kolaps

atatwolf said:


> Japan is no threat to Russia... Russia will say one thing and do another thing. Good example is Ukraine...
> 
> The only country that needs to be contained on their eastern flank is China. Japan and Russia will take care of that if needed.
> 
> Japan is a sane country and wants back what is theirs. Russia understands this.



You say that because Turkey is NATO member.

But everyone know that Turkey = ISIS.


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## Beidou2020

atatwolf said:


> Japan is reliable partner. China not. That is why Turkey didn't go for Chinese air defence development. Cheating, lying, stealing tech and what not. Russia has the same prblem. Their stuff god also ripped of by Chinese industry.
> 
> Russia's policy on eastern flank:
> 
> Short term gains: use China
> 
> On long term gains: throw China in front of the bus and go with Japan.



Turkey is a Wahabi terrorist organisation pretending to be a country.


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## cnleio

atatwolf said:


> Japan is reliable partner. China not. That is why Turkey didn't go for Chinese air defence development. Cheating, lying, stealing tech and what not. Russia has the same prblem. Their stuff god also ripped of by Chinese industry.
> 
> Russia's policy on eastern flank:
> 
> Short term gains: use China
> 
> On long term gains: throw China in front of the bus and go with Japan.


Once Ukraine Crisis not end and the West sanctions to Russia, Russian had no any choice just stand with China as the ally, Japan can't not replace China coz their government's "*Under U.S pressure*"... LOL What a NORMAL policy system ! a Reliable government to Russia ?

Just remind u there's also Japan-Russia North islands dispute, Japan sanction and Japan policy issue to WWII.

The West push Russia with China side, not China force them. Ur idea so simple & naive, do u hear some word called "*Geopolitics*" ?!

Chinese, Russian FMs talk over Volgograd blasts, Abe's shrine visit
I just read 2014 Abe did this again, how the Russian & Korean think ?


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## LowPost

cnleio said:


> Once Ukraine Crisis not end and the West sanctions to Russia, Russian had no any choice just stand with China as the ally, Japan can't not replace China coz their government's "*Under U.S pressure*"... LOL What a NORMAL policy system ! a Reliable government to Russia ?



Assuming Russia and the West (+Japan) are strategic allies with one primary aim in mind, that is containing China, then the bear must've let down his comrade eagle big time.  Well, the differences arising thereby won't be reconciled any time soon, that's for sure.

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## daring dude

China and Russia are considering building a high-speed rail line thousands of kilometres from Moscow to Beijing that would cut the journey time from six days on the celebrated Trans-Siberian to two, Chinese media reported Friday.

The project would cost more than $230 billion and be over 7,000 kilometres (4,350 miles) long, the Beijing Times reported -- more than three times the world's current longest high-speed line, from the Chinese capital to the southern city of Guangzhou.

The railway would be a powerful physical symbol of the ties that bind Moscow and Beijing, whose political relationship has roots dating from the Soviet era and who often vote together on the UN Security Council.

They have strengthened their relationship as Western criticism of Russian President Vladimir Putin mounts over Ukraine and other issues.

The two signed a memorandum of understanding earlier this week during Premier Li Keqiang's visit to Moscow in which Beijing expressed interest in building a fast rail link between the Russian capital and Kazan in the oil-rich Tatarstan region, state broadcaster China Central Television reported.

The 803-kilometre line would be the first stage of the route to Beijing, CCTV said.

At present, trains between the two run along the Trans-Siberian railway that links Moscow and Vladivostok, before switching to a branch line heading south through the Mongolian capital Ulan Bator.

Direct passenger trains between Beijing and Moscow went into operation in 1954 and there are still two services per week, CCTV said.

The new link would cut the train travel time from six days at present to under two days, the Beijing Times quoted Wang Mengshu, a tunnel and railway expert at the Chinese Academy of Engineering, as saying.

"If the funds are raised smoothly... the line can be completed in five years at the quickest," he added.

The paper cited a research report that put the cost of one kilometre of Chinese-built fast rail at $33 million.

The country has the world's largest high-speed rail network, built from scratch in less than a decade, relying on technology transfer from foreign companies, including France's Alstom, Germany's Siemens and Japan's Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

Its reputation was tarnished after a bullet train collision in July 2011 near the eastern city of Wenzhou that killed at least 40 people and injured hundreds.

But China is now keen to promote the export of its technology, and has been building high-speed rail networks in Turkey and Venezuela.


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## senheiser

*Russia And China Want To Build The Longest High-Speed Railway In The World To Connect Them*

OCT. 17, 2014, 8:42 AM
14,359





REUTERS/Carlos BarriaRussia's President Vladimir Putin and China's President Xi Jinping review an honour guard contingent during a welcoming ceremony at the Xijiao State Guesthouse ahead of the fourth Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) summit, in Shanghai May 20, 2014.

China and Russia are considering building a high-speed rail line thousands of kilometres from Moscow to Beijing that would cut the journey time from six days on the celebrated Trans-Siberian to two, Chinese media reported Friday.

The project would cost more than $230 billion and be over 7,000 kilometres (4,350 miles) long, the Beijing Times reported -- more than three times the world's current longest high-speed line, from the Chinese capital to the southern city of Guangzhou.

The railway would be a powerful physical symbol of the ties that bind Moscow and Beijing, whose political relationship has roots dating from the Soviet era and who often vote together on the UN Security Council.

They have strengthened their relationship as Western criticism of Russian President Vladimir Putin mounts over Ukraine and other issues.




Trans Siberian ExperienceThe new bullet train would run alongside current trains but will cut the travel time by 6 days.

The two signed a memorandum of understanding earlier this week during Premier Li Keqiang's visit to Moscow in which Beijing expressed interest in building a fast rail link between the Russian capital and Kazan in the oil-rich Tatarstan region, state broadcaster China Central Television reported.

The 803-kilometre line would be the first stage of the route to Beijing, CCTV said.

At present, trains between the two run along the Trans-Siberian railway that links Moscow and Vladivostok, before switching to a branch line heading south through the Mongolian capital Ulan Bator.

Direct passenger trains between Beijing and Moscow went into operation in 1954 and there are still two services per week, CCTV said.

The new link would cut the train travel time from six days at present to under two days, the Beijing Times quoted Wang Mengshu, a tunnel and railway expert at the Chinese Academy of Engineering, as saying.

"If the funds are raised smoothly... the line can be completed in five years at the quickest," he added.

The paper cited a research report that put the cost of one kilometre of Chinese-built fast rail at $33 million.

The country has the world's largest high-speed rail network, built from scratch in less than a decade, relying on technology transfer from foreign companies, including France's Alstom, Germany's Siemens and Japan's Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

Its reputation was tarnished after a bullet train collision in July 2011 near the eastern city of Wenzhou that killed at least 40 people and injured hundreds.

But China is now keen to promote the export of its technology, and has been building high-speed rail networks in Turkey and Venezuela. 



Read more: Russia And China Want To Build The Longest Railway - Business Insider

@vostok @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @TaiShang @Nihonjin1051 @Beidou2020

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## Aepsilons

Good for China and Russia.

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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Good for China and Russia.


good for eurasia

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> good for eurasia



That, too.

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## senheiser

unfortunately all of eastern europe is very backwards except for Russia, so it will take a long time in order for trains to replace ships and planes in world trade




Operational high-speed lines in Europe



Operational high-speed lines in East Asia

@flamer84

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## MarkusS

senheiser said:


> good for eurasia




travel between russia and europe is almost not existant. So this is basicly a dead end.


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## SvenSvensonov

senheiser said:


> unfortunately all of eastern europe is very backwards except for Russia, so it will take a long time in order for trains to replace ships and planes in world trade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Operational high-speed lines in Europe
> 
> 
> 
> Operational high-speed lines in East Asia
> 
> @flamer84



Finland is an eastern European nation, Turkey too (depending on your perspective), are they backwards? More to the point though, this rail line would be a great addition to the economic and cultural exchanges of Russia and China, though for the greater Eurasia it does seem a bit "out of the way" as it crosses only though Mongolia, China and Russia. I'm not sure Afghanistan would benefit too much (just as a point of comparison). Hopefully all goes well.

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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> travel between russia and europe is almost not existant. So this is basicly a dead end.


travel to china in 4 days?



SvenSvensonov said:


> Finland is an eastern European nation, Turkey too (depending on your perspective), are they backwards? More to the point though, this rail line would be a great addition to the economic and cultural exchanges of Russia and China, though for the greater Eurasia it does seem a bit "out of the way" as it crosses only though Mongolia, China and Russia. I'm not sure Afghanistan would benefit too much (just as a point of comparison). Hopefully all goes well.


nope they arent in a political stand. Russia is the only eastern european country having high speed rail lines, not even smaller countries like czecho & slovakia made any despite due to their size being its much cheaper to build


@Audio

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> travel to china in 4 days?



4 days is rather long. A business man from Dusseldorf can travel to Beijing in 18 hours by plane.


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## MarkusS

senheiser said:


> travel to china in 4 days?




i can be in china in roughly 10 hours.

Lufthansa ® Deutschland - Günstige Flüge ab 99 € buchen



Nihonjin1051 said:


> 4 days is rather long. A business man from Dusseldorf can travel to Beijing in 18 hours by plane.




wrong. Frankfurt - Beijing is 10 hours. ;P

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> unfortunately all of eastern europe is very backwards except for Russia, so it will take a long time in order for trains to replace ships and planes in world trade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Operational high-speed lines in Europe
> 
> 
> 
> Operational high-speed lines in East Asia
> 
> @flamer84




All of Eastern Europe is very backwards except for Russia? Are you sure? 












GDP per capita



MarkusS said:


> i can be in china in roughly 10 hours.
> 
> Lufthansa ® Deutschland - Günstige Flüge ab 99 € buchen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wrong. Frankfurt - Beijing is 10 hours. ;P




10 hours? I stand corrected then. Why would anyone want to take a train to China in 4 days when they can take a plane and be there in 10 hours. Gee wiz! Talk about efficiency.


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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> All of Eastern Europe is very backwards except for Russia? Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GDP per capita
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 hours? I stand corrected then. Why would anyone want to take a train to China in 4 days when they can take a plane and be there in 10 hours. Gee wiz! Talk about efficiency.



4 days is a bit too much to incentivize me to seek a ride from Moscow to Beijing, but it makes sense from a Russian perspective. Russian's already use trains to traverse their eastern regions, though these trips take long, they still have experience operating them in harsh conditions. They are also more economical and practical than other forms of mass transportation. For a point of comparison planes may be faster, but are more expensive for consumers, more expensive to maintain, their crews harder and more expensive to train, and Russia's plane force isn't exactly at the top of the world rankings these days.

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## MarkusS

SvenSvensonov said:


> 4 days is a bit too much to incentivize me to seek a ride from Moscow to Beijing, but it makes sense from a Russian perspective. Russian's already use trains to traverse their eastern regions, though these trips take long, they still have experience operating them in harsh conditions. They are also more economical and practical than other forms of mass transportation. For a point of comparison planes may be faster, but are more expensive for consumers, more expensive to maintain, their crews harder and more expensive to train, and Russia's plane force isn't exactly at the top of the world rankings these days.




I´m just saying it would be laughable for a european to travel china by train.

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## SvenSvensonov

MarkusS said:


> I´m just saying it would be laughable for a european to travel china by train.



No question, I'd rather fly than travel by train. Even for the transportation of goods to and from each region, sea travel is more economical due to the low cost of shipping (insurance is expensive though) and the high volume of goods that can be moved.

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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> I´m just saying it would be laughable for a european to travel china by train.



Precisely. We have achieved the pinnacle of human civilization by unraveling the power of the atom, have ascended the heavens into space, have created modules to travel at hypersonic speeds, have mastered the genetic code, and unraveled bacteriology and virology through pharmacology.

And for what? To travel intercontinentally vis-a-vis trains? What's the point of planes then? lol

Mankind moves forward, not backwards.

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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> All of Eastern Europe is very backwards except for Russia? Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GDP per capita
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 hours? I stand corrected then. Why would anyone want to take a train to China in 4 days when they can take a plane and be there in 10 hours. Gee wiz! Talk about efficiency.


you post wrong a oudated data growth in 2011 was 4.3% and above romania and slovakia
GDP growth (annual %) | Data | Graph

gdp per capita is also wrong
GDP per capita, PPP (current international $) | Data | Graph

russia is 24k$

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## Aepsilons

SvenSvensonov said:


> No question, I'd rather fly than travel by train. Even for the transportation of goods to and from each region, sea travel is more economical due to the low cost of shipping (insurance is expensive though) and the high volume of goods that can be moved.



Agreed! Not to mention the high cost of maintenance of HSR networks. The logistics and cost thereof would leave even the most optimistic civil engineer scratching his or her head. lol

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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Precisely. We have achieved the pinnacle of human civilization by unraveling the power of the atom, have ascended the heavens into space, have created modules to travel at hypersonic speeds, have mastered the genetic code, and unraveled bacteriology and virology through pharmacology.
> 
> And for what? To travel intercontinentally vis-a-vis trains? What's the point of planes then? lol
> 
> Mankind moves forward, not backwards.



I don't know if I'd go far enough to call trains backwards, I used to ride one of the D.C. metros with regularity and it was great for inner-city travel. Also more recent hypothetical or theoretical train travel proposals such as hyper-loops, as proposed by Mr. Musk, seem to be a step forward and not backwards. I suppose my view is a bit biased though I as do like train travel more than air travel.

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> you post wrong a oudated data growth in 2011 was 4.3% and above romania and slovakia
> GDP growth (annual %) | Data | Graph
> 
> gdp per capita is also wrong
> GDP per capita, PPP (current international $) | Data | Graph
> 
> russia is 24k$



Russia is below Estonia, Slovak Republic, and at the same tier with Poland. Its not at the head of Eastern Europe at all. Comparatively and proportionally.


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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Agreed! Not to mention the high cost of maintenance of HSR networks. The logistics and cost thereof would leave even the most optimistic civil engineer scratching his or her head. lol



Yep, and it's this cost that has so far been the biggest inhibitor here in the States. People are too frugal, even when projects would benefit the US as a whole.


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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Precisely. We have achieved the pinnacle of human civilization by unraveling the power of the atom, have ascended the heavens into space, have created modules to travel at hypersonic speeds, have mastered the genetic code, and unraveled bacteriology and virology through pharmacology.
> 
> And for what? To travel intercontinentally vis-a-vis trains? What's the point of planes then? lol
> 
> Mankind moves forward, not backwards.



for what? to travel safely






planes are dangerous also it would benefit trade using high speed trains as plane delivery of goods is more expensive and container ships take longer



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Russia is below Estonia, Slovak Republic, and at the same tier with Poland. Its not at the head of Eastern Europe at all. Comparatively and proportionally.


but your graph shows its 15k but its the outdated ppp conversion. Imf and worldbank updated it

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> for what? to travel safely
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> planes are dangerous also it would benefit trade using high speed trains as plane delivery of goods is more expensive and container ships take longer




Ironic that you posted that. That was the Malaysian Airline that was shot down by Russian anti-air missiles , right ? 

PS. You're not supposed to shoot passenger airliners, btw.


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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> i can be in china in roughly 10 hours.
> 
> Lufthansa ® Deutschland - Günstige Flüge ab 99 € buchen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wrong. Frankfurt - Beijing is 10 hours. ;P



these people thought the same







Nihonjin1051 said:


> Ironic that you posted that. That was the Malaysian Airline that was shot down by Russian anti-air missiles , right ?
> 
> PS. You're not supposed to shoot passenger airliners, btw.


it was shot down by ukraine, it doesnt matter planes crashing all the time. They are unreliable, with time trains will replace planes as the travel time gets more and more lower. 2 Days from china to moscow is a pretty low time, you can easily just take a sleep all the time. I would rather travel in train then to take any plane who could crash and kill me.

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## Aepsilons

SvenSvensonov said:


> Yep, and it's this cost that has so far been the biggest inhibitor here in the States. People are too frugal, even when projects would benefit the US as a whole.



You're right Sven. I can understand why the United States has been resistant to building Shinkansen style HSRs , after cost-benefits analysis. Plus, the US has a unique Car culture. Its interesting to see that Americans have a 'cross country drive' culture. This past summer, some of my friends literally drove from South Jersey to Wyoming to visit Yellowstone Park. When I asked them, would you rather choose to take the pane to Wyoming? Or take a bus ? My friend answered me, "Its the driving experience".


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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Precisely. We have achieved the pinnacle of human civilization by unraveling the power of the atom, have ascended the heavens into space, have created modules to travel at hypersonic speeds, have mastered the genetic code, and unraveled bacteriology and virology through pharmacology.
> 
> And for what? To travel intercontinentally vis-a-vis trains? What's the point of planes then? lol
> 
> Mankind moves forward, not backwards.



I would like to say this too. Your viewpoint is no more wrong than mine is right, just a differing view point. I've known sailors that love subs and being on them, they freaked me out, I hated being on them. I don't like being on water, but many people would rather be on a boat than on land. I like bikes, but don't like cars. Others feel differently. For trains and planes, our preferences and which we think is more advanced or better for the future of travel is a matter of opinion and I respect yours just as much as I do mine.

(felt it was a bit rude of me to reject your assertion, considering opinions are never facts and my preference does not equal the best way forward)

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> it was shot down by ukraine, it doesnt matter planes crashing all the time. They are unreliable, with time trains will replace planes as the travel time gets more and more lower. 2 Days from china to moscow is a pretty low time, you can easily just take a sleep all the time. I would rather travel in train then to take any plane who could crash and kill me.



For the sake of argument, irrespective of who shot the civilian plane; it was shot down. Period. Under normal circumstances, in peaceful theaters, civilian aircraft are not supposed to be targeted by military personnel and a thorough screening prevents such instances from happening in other parts of the world. In more peaceful , developed parts of the world. That is.

There are many processes that establishes this; the Geneva Convention's Rules of War for example , explicitly forbids the targeting of civilians in military engagements.


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## Audio

senheiser said:


> @Audio



You rang?

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## Aepsilons

Audio said:


> You rang?



lol


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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> For the sake of argument, irrespective of who shot the civilian plane; it was shot down. Period. Under normal circumstances, in peaceful theaters, civilian aircraft are not supposed to be targeted by military personnel and a thorough screening prevents such instances from happening in other parts of the world. In more peaceful , developed parts of the world. That is.
> 
> There are many processes that establishes this; the Geneva Convention's Rules of War for example , explicitly forbids the targeting of civilians in military engagements.


but it doesnt change the fact that planes crash even without any military involvement. Also it was not the first time a plane was shot down by other people. just some months after the incident in ukraine, french plane went down in which no one knows what responsible for

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Algérie_Flight_5017

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## Audio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> lol



Funny part is i already know that he will want some sort of confirmation that HSR lines aren't in use in eastern Europe, probably there's a slight insult in there as well, namely switching me for a Slovak! Or he just wanted to rub in that single HSR line from Mockba to St.Petersburg + Slovak switch.

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## SvenSvensonov

senheiser said:


> but it doesnt change the fact that planes crash even without any military involvement. Also it was not the first time a plane was shot down by other people. just some months after the incident in ukraine, french plane went down in which no one knows what responsible for
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Algérie_Flight_5017



Both planes and trains crash, so to do cars, bikes, boats, helicopters, ski-doos, and anything else humans ride on. But that doesn't mean that plane or train crashes are frequent events or than either form of transportation is unsafe. Crashes get headlines, especially if foul-play was involved. Cars crash at a higher rate than planes or trains, yet people still regard them as safe to use.

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## MarkusS

For gods sake please ignore that russian troll.

Beside that airplanes are by far the most safe transportation possible. And nope, i would never travel intercontinental by train. I live in the 21st century. Thats backwarded russia shit. What coems next? travel by horse?



Audio said:


> Funny part is i already know that he will want some sort of confirmation that HSR lines aren't in use in eastern Europe, probably there's a slight insult in there as well, namely switching me for a Slovak! Or he just wanted to rub in that single HSR line from Mockba to St.Petersburg + Slovak switch.




He also hides that russias highspeed rail between moscow and st. petersburg is 100% german build. Even the trains got shipped to russia. They can´t build it themself.

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## j20blackdragon

Rail access for Chinese goods to Russia/Europe is a big deal. It also means the US Navy can't shut down the shipping lanes.

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## SvenSvensonov

j20blackdragon said:


> Rail access for Chinese goods to Russia/Europe is a big deal. It also means the US Navy can't shut down the shipping lanes.



The US Navy has long range cruise missiles and aircraft accurate enough to reduce rail lines to dust though.

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## Audio

MarkusS said:


> He also hides that russias highspeed rail between moscow and st. petersburg is 100% german build. Even the trains got shipped to russia. They can´t build it themself.



Oh well.....i'll just say it is not surprising to see an incomplete picture from that source.

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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> For gods sake please ignore that russian troll.
> 
> Beside that airplanes are by far the most safe transportation possible. And nope, i would never travel intercontinental by train. I live in the 21st century. Thats backwarded russia shit. What coems next? travel by horse?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He also hides that russias highspeed rail between moscow and st. petersburg is 100% german build. Even the trains got shipped to russia. They can´t build it themself.


yeah but we buy Chinese the next time, why arent you supplying poland and romania instead if the EU is such a beneficial organisation?



Audio said:


> Oh well.....i'll just say it is not surprising to see an incomplete picture from that source.


where is slovenian high speed rails?



MarkusS said:


> For gods sake please ignore that russian troll.
> 
> Beside that airplanes are by far the most safe transportation possible. And nope, i would never travel intercontinental by train. I live in the 21st century. Thats backwarded russia shit. What coems next? travel by horse?


so you want everything to be shippied via plane even goods? Trains are cheaper for goods export and import

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## j20blackdragon

SvenSvensonov said:


> The US Navy has long range cruise missiles and aircraft accurate enough to reduce rail lines to dust though.



Which would require a direct attack on Russian and/or Chinese territory. You just started WW3.

Besides, cruise missiles don't work very well without GPS. INS guidance by itself is highly inaccurate. Read the article.

Analysis points to China's work on new anti-satellite weapon| Reuters

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> but it doesnt change the fact that planes crash even without any military involvement. Also it was not the first time a plane was shot down by other people. just some months after the incident in ukraine, french plane went down in which no one knows what responsible for
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Algérie_Flight_5017




Sure there are limitations in air flight, but it remains the globally preferred source of travel en mass. There are limitations and dangers in any form of travel, comrade.


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## SvenSvensonov

j20blackdragon said:


> Which would require a direct attack on Russian and/or Chinese territory. You just started WW3.
> 
> Besides, cruise missiles don't work very well without GPS. INS guidance by itself is highly inaccurate. Read the article.
> 
> Analysis points to China's work on new anti-satellite weapon| Reuters



If the US is thinking about restricting sea lanes, or attacking Russian and Chinese rails then WWIII has already begun. The US has Russia and China mapped, terrain mapping can be used as a supplement to GPS or INS, if these fail the US can go old-school and use air-born relays like the Russians use to with their sub launched cruise missiles for beyond the horizon attacks. We have more than enough assets and tactics to adapt to different scenarios.

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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sure there are limitations in air flight, but it remains the globally preferred source of travel en mass. There are limitations and dangers in any form of travel, comrade.


but its not for trade. Also when we speak about travel from moscow to kazan or kazan to novoserbirsk from there to china or china to mongolia and russia this route will be better than air travel

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## Aepsilons

SvenSvensonov said:


> If the US is thinking about restricting sea lanes, or attacking Russian and Chinese rails then WWIII has already begun. The US has Russia and China mapped, terrain mapping can be used as a supplement to GPS or INS, if these fail the US can go old-school and use air-born relays like Russians use to with their sub launched cruise missiles for beyond the horizon attacks. We have more than enough assets and tactics to adapt to difference scenarios.



And the Mighty Eagle roars. With Wings outstretched..in resplendent Glory.


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## Audio

senheiser said:


> where is slovenian high speed rails?



Doesn't exist. Distances are too small, terrain is somewhat challenging (lots of tunnels and bridges), and the most natural path between cities (down in valleys) is often winding and cannot evolve into long straights characteristic of HSR lines. For reference about straight lines , see your own map.

For Slovenia's intercity needs, tilting train that does 200 km/h is quite enough.







For smaller city connections this is used:

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## Aepsilons

Audio said:


> Doesn't exist. Distances are too small, terrain is somewhat challenging (lots of tunnels and bridges), and the most natural path between cities (down in valleys) is often winding and cannot evolve into long straights characteristic of HSR lines. For reference about straight lines , see your own map.
> 
> For Slovenia's intercity needs, tilting train that does 200 km/h is quite enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For smaller city connections this is used:




Slovenia is a member state of the Larger European Union. As a European Citizen, they can avail of the many HSRs in the Union. The Eurail , for instance.



senheiser said:


> but its not for trade. Also when we speak about travel from moscow to kazan or kazan to novoserbirsk from there to china or china to mongolia and russia this route will be better than air travel



Well in that case, land travel is necessary to transfer goods amongst land-locked states. Land route manifests in the form of trucking freights, as well as railway systems. In regards to transferring of goods, it makes sense to use railway system. However, for mass movement of peoples, in regards to efficiency and speed, the air route is preferred. Not everyone can waste 4 days to travel, comrade. Its just inefficient. 

Remember, Time is money.


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## MarkusS

senheiser said:


> yeah but we buy Chinese the next time, why arent you supplying poland and romania instead if the EU is such a beneficial organisation?
> 
> 
> where is slovenian high speed rails?
> 
> 
> so you want everything to be shippied via plane even goods? Trains are cheaper for goods export and import




no highspeed needed there. 

And go buy chinese. Nobody cares. our trains are better. You can´t aford them anymore.


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## Audio

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Slovenia is a member state of the Larger European Union. As a European Citizen, they can avail of the many HSRs in the Union. The Eurail , for instance.



Eurail works great btw.

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## senheiser

Audio said:


> Doesn't exist. Distances are too small, terrain is somewhat challenging (lots of tunnels and bridges), and the most natural path between cities (down in valleys) is often winding and cannot evolve into long straights characteristic of HSR lines. For reference about straight lines , see your own map.
> 
> For Slovenia's intercity needs, tilting train that does 200 km/h is quite enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For smaller city connections this is used:


slovenia is richer than russia yet you still lack in many aspects, it remains that russia is only eastern european country having high speed rails and that despite we having a bigger country so if calculated how much km your total rail system are we in fact beat britain, korea and switzerland






if we build this rail network with china we will be number 1 or 2

@vostok

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## MarkusS

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Slovenia is a member state of the Larger European Union. As a European Citizen, they can avail of the many HSRs in the Union. The Eurail , for instance.
> 
> 
> 
> Well in that case, land travel is necessary to transfer goods amongst land-locked states. Land route manifests in the form of trucking freights, as well as railway systems. In regards to transferring of goods, it makes sense to use railway system. However, for mass movement of peoples, in regards to efficiency and speed, the air route is preferred. Not everyone can waste 4 days to travel, comrade. Its just inefficient.
> 
> Remember, Time is money.




I know nobody who want sit 4 days in a fucking train.

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## Aepsilons

Audio said:


> Eurail works great btw.



It just amuses me when Russians like @senheiser refer or single out one member state of the EU; either it be Romania or Slovenia. They (Russians) need to know that Slovenia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, as with Germany, France, Spain et al, are forever part of the European Union; part a confederation of states. Slovenia is part of the greater European Union.


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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Slovenia is a member state of the Larger European Union. As a European Citizen, they can avail of the many HSRs in the Union. The Eurail , for instance.
> 
> 
> 
> Well in that case, land travel is necessary to transfer goods amongst land-locked states. Land route manifests in the form of trucking freights, as well as railway systems. In regards to transferring of goods, it makes sense to use railway system. However, for mass movement of peoples, in regards to efficiency and speed, the air route is preferred. Not everyone can waste 4 days to travel, comrade. Its just inefficient.
> 
> Remember, Time is money.


back in the day it wasnt different for air travel but technology progressed and limited the time for travel

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> slovenia is richer than russia yet you still lack in many aspects, it remains that russia is only eastern european country having high speed rails and that despite we having a bigger country so if calculated how much km your total rail system are we in fact beat britain, korea and switzerland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @vostok




Correction, comrade. Slovenia is part of the European Union. Why are you comparing the Russian Federation with a mere state of the European Union? I think it would be best if you were to compare the Russian Federation with the ENTIRE European Union.



senheiser said:


> back in the day it wasnt different for air travel but technology progressed and limited the time for travel



Agree with you here. Back in the day, that is.


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## Audio

senheiser said:


> slovenia is richer than russia yet you still lack in many aspects, it remains that russia is only eastern european country having high speed rails and that despite we having a bigger country so if calculated how much km your total rail system are we in fact beat britain, korea and switzerland

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## senheiser

Audio said:


>



east > west

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## Azizam

MarkusS said:


> I know nobody who want sit 4 days in a fucking train.


I do like but only as a tourist. Is this train line aimed at tourists or businessmen? Nowadays air travel is even cheaper than covering a vast distance on train for 4 days.


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## MarkusS

senheiser said:


> east > west




Why do you live in the west then?


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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> I know nobody who want sit 4 days in a fucking train.



I agree! I can't even stand it when I'm taking Northwest Airlines from Detroit , Michigan to Nagoya, Japan. The flight takes 18 hours. I'm already ansy after the 6th hour en flight.

I can't imagine sitting in a train car for 4 days (96 hours) . Unless they give me carbamezapene. 



senheiser said:


> east > west



But you live in Germany? Isn't that hypocritical ?

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## j20blackdragon

Double track rail can carry troops and tanks as well as consumer goods and commodities. The more rail links between Russia and China the better.

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## Gijoe

oh what this? connection railway, that mean Nato and US touches between these two will be fighting the two giant. No dont let them allies. Indian is worst, US cannot depend on them due to they have no balls.


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## Götterdämmerung

The only people traveling from the EU or Europe in general by train to China are tourists with plenty of time to see the landscape and the experience of traveling. I bet most people taking this train will only travel distances under 1000 km, e.g. from Beijing to Ulan Bator or from Ulan Bator to the next Russian city. But nonetheless, it will benefit the people living along this line immensely.

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## Aepsilons

Götterdämmerung said:


> The only people traveling from the EU or Europe in general by train to China are tourists with plenty of time to see the landscape and the experience of traveling. I bet most people taking this train will only travel distances under 1000 km, e.g. from Beijing to Ulan Bator or from Ulan Bator to the next Russian city. But nonetheless, it will benefit the people living along this line immensely.



Ergo the Wild Wild West in 19th century America?


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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> The only people traveling from the EU or Europe in general by train to China are tourists with plenty of time to see the landscape and the experience of traveling. I bet most people taking this train will only travel distances under 1000 km, e.g. from Beijing to Ulan Bator or from Ulan Bator to the next Russian city. But nonetheless, it will benefit the people living along this line immensely.



the line between moscow and st. petersburg does not profit the people at all. Its used from the rich.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> the line between moscow and st. petersburg does not profit the people at all. Its used from the rich.



Stats please!

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Stats please!




mass demonstrations against it and people throw stones. The normal russian cant afford it and the railway is blocked for normal trains. There are many problems there


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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> Why do you live in the west then?





Nihonjin1051 said:


> I agree! I can't even stand it when I'm taking Northwest Airlines from Detroit , Michigan to Nagoya, Japan. The flight takes 18 hours. I'm already ansy after the 6th hour en flight.
> 
> I can't imagine sitting in a train car for 4 days (96 hours) . Unless they give me carbamezapene.
> 
> 
> 
> But you live in Germany? Isn't that hypocritical ?


germany was east and west, we need to free it from west


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## Hamartia Antidote

Even 2 days on a train is pretty painful.
Do you really think some businessman from Moscow or Bejing is going to tolerate it?

Moscow Businessman: "hey I have an important business proposal to show you...see you in 2 days!"
Bejing Businessman: "2 days....WTF!!"

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> mass demonstrations against it and people throw stones. The normal russian cant afford it and the railway is blocked for normal trains. There are many problems there



We have mass demonstrations just because of building a bloody railway station in Stuttgart and the Deutsche Bahn famous for having tons of problems with their operations.



Peter C said:


> Even 2 days on a train is pretty painful.
> Do you really think some businessman from Moscow or Bejing is going to tolerate it?
> 
> Moscow Businessman: "hey I have an important business proposal to show you...see you in 2 days!"
> Bejing Businessman: "2 days....WTF!!"



I once travelled two days from Shanghai to Urumqi by train, but it was part of my work. I enjoyed it very much. But I flew back to Shanghai after my work was done.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Götterdämmerung said:


> I once travelled two days from Shanghai to Urumqi by train, but it was part of my work. I enjoyed it very much. But I flew back to Shanghai after my work was done.



It may be fun the first few times...but it will be a hassle for the rest.

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## MarkusS

face reality...it may be fun for tourists to see the landscape. But definitly not if you want travel china.


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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> mass demonstrations against it and people throw stones. The normal russian cant afford it and the railway is blocked for normal trains. There are many problems there


BS, stop spreading your non-sense propaganda



Peter C said:


> Even 2 days on a train is pretty painful.
> Do you really think some businessman from Moscow or Bejing is going to tolerate it?
> 
> Moscow Businessman: "hey I have an important business proposal to show you...see you in 2 days!"
> Bejing Businessman: "2 days....WTF!!"


Americans tolerate it also its about china to russias asia

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## seven7seven

I have to laugh at the people who think HSR is only about how fast it can take them personally to get from point A to point B, in comparison to modes such as flight or shipping. Having HSR linking the Capital Cities of Russia and China will deepen trade ties beyond what most here can imagine. Sure flight is the fastest form of transport but it is very limited in the amount of cargo it can deliver and shipping, whilst great for transporting huge quantities of goods, is far slower than the other two. HSR will enable delivery of substantial amounts of consumable goods (likely high-end) to Russia and then onto Europe, within days. While HSR is high maintenance, it is far cheaper to run in terms of fuel, compared to flight and it allows delivery of goods into key European markets in the time-frame of days compared to weeks for cargo ships, to make the same trip. Plus towns and areas along such a rail link will be boosted by more business and tourism opportunities, generating more local jobs to boost both countries' economies. 

From a strategic sense, having HSR between China and Russia also negates any blockade tactics USA and Nato may use in disputes with Russia and China. Having such a valuable trade link will also make many neighbouring countries soften their view on China and Russia because they will all want access to it for trade purposes so it will have soft political worth too. Russia and China are not countries that indulge in token projects of symbolism. Both countries know how valuable having such a HSR link would be for the both of them.

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## senheiser

Posted: October 18, 2014
Russian Submarine The Amur 1650 To Be Given To China, India’s Nuclear Energy Welcomed By Russia





A new Russian submarine design called the Amur 1650 is going to be sold to China, with Vladimir Putin hoping that Russia’s economic recession may be averted partially by making deals with the Chinese. Russia also publicly welcomed the expansion of India’s nuclear energy.


In a related report by _The Inquisitr_, the Russian military successfully tested a Bulava intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) launched from the Russian nuclear submarine the Vladimir Monomakh. The U.S. Navy believes that the newest of China’s nuclear submarines the Jin SSBN “would mark China’s first credible at-sea-second-strike nuclear capability.” There’s also talk of a Chinese supersonic submarine that could cross the pacific in less than 100 minutes.

Vladimir Putin has publicly stated that Russia’s nuclear weapons and the Russian submarine fleet will be given an overhaul in the next five to 10 years. To give readers an idea for why this is considered necessary, this was the condition of a Soviet era Viktor-class Russian submarine when it was decommissioned.

_Next Big Future_. It’s also believed Russia will sign contracts to deliver S-400 missile systems and Su-35 fighter jets to China in the first quarter of 2015. In addition to the Russian submarine and other weapons, the two governments agreed to swap swap $25 billion in Chinese yuan for Russian rubles over three years. They also created economic treaties to benefit both countries. There’s also talk of creating a $250 billion high speed rail project that would connect Moscow to Beijing, which would allow China to greatly lower the cost of trade with Europe.

According to the _Economic Times_, the tensions between the U.S. and Russia were also raised when India’s nuclear energy plans were announced. Russian Ambassador to India Alexander M. Kadakin told reporters they desire a stable India, and that sustainable development in solving their energy problems was necessary. Kadakin took a jab at the United States by claiming “there is zero technology coming from US to India. India is producing the world’s best nuclear power project with Russia in Koodankulam. US has not given even a nail to this nuclear site.”











@ChineseTiger1986 @Chinese-Dragon @Beidou2020 @TaiShang @cirr @Nihonjin1051 @Viet @Kiss_of_the_Dragon@kaykay @IndoUS

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## Hamartia Antidote

senheiser said:


> Americans tolerate it also its about china to russias asia



No, Americans do not tolerate it.
I'm quite sure less than 1% of native born Americans under the age of 60 have spent more than 24 hours on a train...and for the majority of them it wasn't their choice (probably dragged on as kids by their parents).

Flying has been mainstream for a LONG LONG time.

Being on an Amtrak train (the train system here) for > 24 hours is for people who are paranoid of flying or want some scenic adventure.



seven7seven said:


> I have to laugh at the people who think HSR is only about how fast it can take them personally to get from point A to point B, in comparison to modes such as flight or shipping. Having HSR linking the Capital Cities of Russia and China will deepen trade ties beyond what most here can imagine. Sure flight is the fastest form of transport but it is very limited in the amount of cargo it can deliver and shipping, whilst great for transporting huge quantities of goods,



When have you heard of high speed rail hauling heavy freight? Anyways isn't there already a heavy freight line to China?

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## seven7seven

Peter C said:


> When have you heard of high speed rail hauling heavy freight? Anyways isn't there already a heavy freight line to China?



Who said anything about hauling heavy freight?

HSR won't be used like regular cargo trains to mass transport raw materials and heavy goods. That's why I stipulated high-end goods in my earlier post. HSR could easily be used to quickly deliver the high-end goods that China is now looking to break into. Smartphones, tablets, smart TVs, etc. can all be transported in substantial quantities and very quickly to key target markets and gaining a logistical advantage over US, Japanese and Korean competitors. China and Russia are leveraging their geographical advantage in that both countries' huge landmasses span most of Eurasia, and in turn bridges two of the World's most important economic centres, of East Asia and Central Europe. Don't hate on China and Russia for beating USA's pathetic efforts at containing them.

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## Steakhouse

Build it and people will come, this high speed rail will attract a lot of tourist want to travel cross country from Europe to China, each stop tourist can get off the train to visit each city the train pass by the area which increase the local business along the train station.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

seven7seven said:


> I have to laugh at the people who think HSR is only about how fast it can take them personally to get from point A to point B, in comparison to modes such as flight or shipping. Having HSR linking the Capital Cities of Russia and China will deepen trade ties beyond what most here can imagine. Sure flight is the fastest form of transport but it is very limited in the amount of cargo it can deliver and shipping, whilst great for transporting huge quantities of goods, is far slower than the other two. HSR will enable delivery of substantial amounts of consumable goods (likely high-end) to Russia and then onto Europe, within days. While HSR is high maintenance, it is far cheaper to run in terms of fuel, compared to flight and it allows delivery of goods into key European markets in the time-frame of days compared to weeks for cargo ships, to make the same trip. Plus towns and areas along such a rail link will be boosted by more business and tourism opportunities, generating more local jobs to boost both countries' economies.
> 
> From a strategic sense, having HSR between China and Russia also negates any blockade tactics USA and Nato may use in disputes with Russia and China. Having such a valuable trade link will also make many neighbouring countries soften their view on China and Russia because they will all want access to it for trade purposes so it will have soft political worth too. Russia and China are not countries that indulge in token projects of symbolism. Both countries know how valuable having such a HSR link would be for the both of them.


 
Well said, I think Chia has foreseen the advantage of HSR that why we have massively built the interconnectivity among our cities, to Singapore via Laos and Thailand. And HSR between China and Russia will not only promote the business development but bring the two cultures even closer when money and time are not longer the barrier of travaling.

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## Hamartia Antidote

seven7seven said:


> Who said anything about hauling heavy freight?
> 
> HSR won't be used like regular cargo trains to mass transport raw materials and heavy goods. That's why I stipulated high-end goods in my earlier post. HSR could easily be used to quickly deliver the high-end goods that China is now looking to break into. Smartphones, tablets, smart TVs, etc. can all be transported in substantial quantities and very quickly to key target markets and gaining a logistical advantage over US, Japanese and Korean competitors. China and Russia are leveraging their geographical advantage in that both countries' huge landmasses span most of Eurasia, and in turn bridges two of the World's most important economic centres, of East Asia and Central Europe. Don't hate on China and Russia for beating USA's pathetic efforts at containing them.



I think perishables will be pushed harder than non-perishables.
You'd want to ship fresh meat/fish/fruits/vegetables across the continent rather than electronics.


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## Cossack25A1

Maybe the other idea of the high-speed train aside from connecting Moscow to Beijing is to open the cities in the Siberian areas of Russia for economic trade since Russia and China already have economic ties.


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## Nike

i am smelling some Russian propaganda here

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## TaiShang

*Project 677 Lada Class / Project 1650 Amur Class Submarines, Russia*






_An export variant of the Lada Class, the Project 1650 Amur Class has been designed for markets such as India and China. Amur Class is offered in various configurations with a displacement of 550t to 1,850t and different weapon systems. Image courtesy of One half 3544.
_
From the article above, we may anticipate some big deals between China and Russia in 2015. I would welcome defence tech cooperation and joint production between two two countries' MICs. Europe and US do cooperate on many military programs. Why not China and Russia who are territorial neighbors?

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## TaiShang

1. Creates larger business potential for small enterprises that produce high-end tech. 
2. Promotes denser people-to-people interaction. Remember that we are talking about over 1.5 billion people here. With overseas tourists who wish to use the lines, the number would be even greater
3. Important for China to further normalize Xinjiang. 
4. Because HSR can stop at many cities and major towns along the road, its market reach and cumulative impact is higher. These cities and towns, with their own particular attractions (for tourism and business alike) may have enjoy greater development and economic growth.
5. A great tech and logistics demonstration for China -- symbolically important for both China and Russia. 
6. In times of crises/conflict/war, the line might be used as a strategic asset to move people and stuff even, hypothetically, some parts are destroyed by the enemy missiles. 
7. When it comes to their strategic partnership and initiatives, no leadership in China and Russia give a damn about what others might think. As a rule, in fact, if they say this is bad, then it must be good.


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## cirr

The fact that some of our usual friends is against the idea of linking Moscow with Beijing via a HSR says volumes about the necessity of the project。

Anyhow，China is developing high-speed(250km/h or over) cargo trains and will have them run on the Chinese HSR network starting 2015。The Beijing-Moscow axis will prove invaluble for transporting people and high-value products between Europe and the Far East.

It will not only be Beijing-Moscow. It will also be Xi'an-Moscow、Chongqing-Moscow、Chengdu-Moscow、Beijing-Berlin、Beijing-St.Petersburg、Chongqing-Chengdu-Hamburg，etc etc。

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## cnleio

China sub AIP power tech <=> Russia sub steel & single hull tech, Sino-Russia build togethet => Amur class sub.

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## ChineseTiger1986

cnleio said:


> China sub AIP power tech <=> Russia sub steel & single hull tech, Sino-Russia build togethet => Amur class sub.



Both China and Russia now use the mixture of the single hull and the double hull.

The single hull is better for leaving more room, but the double hull is better to reduce the noise.

The mixture of the single hull and the double hull is the best.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The Eurasian high speed railway is becoming inevitable.

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## MarkusS

cirr said:


> The fact that some of our usual friends is against the idea of linking Moscow with Beijing via a HSR says volumes about the necessity of the project。
> 
> Anyhow，China is developing high-speed(250km/h or over) cargo trains and will have them run on the Chinese HSR network starting 2015。The Beijing-Moscow axis will prove invaluble for transporting people and high-value products between Europe and the Far East.
> 
> It will not only be Beijing-Moscow. It will also be Xi'an-Moscow、Chongqing-Moscow、Chengdu-Moscow、Beijing-Berlin、Beijing-St.Petersburg、Chongqing-Chengdu-Hamburg，etc etc。



germany does not allow a chinese train corporation to operate trains on its railway. Same goes for the EU as a whole. So forget your link beyond russia.


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## Edison Chen

_*The project would cost more than $230 billion and be over 7,000 kilometres. *_

Who the hell will travel by train to Russia, other than tourists? Even many tourists will fly there. This is not a lucrative project at all.. Are you kidding me, 230 billion? I have no problem if Russia pays for it. Even in China, our HSR system is not complete yet, we should concentrate on our own business and leave Russia alone.

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## cirr

MarkusS said:


> germany does not allow a chinese train corporation to operate trains on its railway. Same goes for the EU as a whole. So forget your link beyond russia.



By the time this proposal becomes a reality，it will be a very different world we are living in，that is if we are still alive。

Pls be farsighted。

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## GDan

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of train networks, but this pic posted by Senheiser says that China and Russia use different track gauge for their existing HSR lines. Isn't that problematic?


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## MarkusS

cirr said:


> By the time this proposal becomes a reality，it will be a very different world we are living in，that is if we are still alive。
> 
> Pls be farsighted。



There s something that never changes and this is german workerlaws as well as the structure of the railways. German railways corporation id nationalized. DB. It is banned for foreign corporations to operate railways on german ground. This law is from Bismarck, survived WW I, WW II, the cold war and reunion. Nothing can shake this. A chinese train operated from chinese staff will never operate on german land. It would be a security risk and definitly not in german interest.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Edison Chen said:


> _*The project would cost more than $230 billion and be over 7,000 kilometres. *_
> 
> Who the hell will travel by train to Russia, other than tourists? Even many tourists will fly there. This is not a lucrative project at all.. Are you kidding me, 230 billion? I have no problem if Russia pays for it. Even in China, our HSR system is not complete yet, we should concentrate on our own business and leave Russia alone.



This goes back to my theory of how the rise of the standard of living in China is going to cause the CCP trouble. In the future pushing projects that the average person may be against will become harder and harder. People aren't going to be pushover peasants anymore.

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## FairAndUnbiased

Peter C said:


> I think perishables will be pushed harder than non-perishables.
> You'd want to ship fresh meat/fish/fruits/vegetables across the continent rather than electronics.



I think that's one thing, but also rapid prototyping and contract manufacturing. You can prototype a large or fragile machine at the factory, then send it over to customers to get their views *fast*, and for the customers to be able to look at the actual machine. Faster than shipping, can go straight to the factory without leaving protective casing, and far cheaper than air.


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## Edison Chen

Peter C said:


> This goes back to my theory of how the rise of the standard of living in China is going to cause the CCP trouble as in the future pushing projects that the average person may be against will become harder and harder. People aren't going to be pushover peasants anymore.


 
Every citizen or taxpayer has the right to keep an eye on how the money is being used or to see if it is wasted. The new amendment of China's budget law set more detailed procedures to make fiscal appropriation more transparent and easily supervised, to improve the effectiveness of the functionality of government and reduce corruption. We have the right to question the government.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Edison Chen said:


> Every citizen or taxpayer has the right to keep an eye on how the money is being used or to see if it is wasted. The new amendment of China's budget law set more detailed procedures to make fiscal appropriation more transparent and easily supervised, to improve the effectiveness of the functionality of government and reduce corruption. We have the right to question the government.



...and so it starts. Democracy is right around the corner.

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## STEVEN囧

In China,we travel from smaller city to smaller city without airport by high-speed train instead of bus.
It is very convenient.
What if we set up the railway from Moscow to Beijing,it doesn't mean we will go directly from Beijing to Moscow by flight.
This rail could connect small point together.
For example,from Guangzhou to Beijing,the airline distance is about 2200km,and it will take 3 hours and ten minute.If by high speed train,it may take 9 hours and 15 minutes.But this rail connect 13 cities and some station is just in the middle of small countrysides.It is kind of radiation.
In addition,for a lot of smaller place,the airport is far away from our location but some railway stations are more nearby downtown.
High-speed train is just your another choice.

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## Ajatashatru

Will such a long high speed line be able to compete with low cost airlines in terms of price and time saved?

Is economic feasibility is already debatable.


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## TaiShang

Peter C said:


> ...and so it starts. Democracy is right around the corner.



Whatever you may like to call it. We call it "good governance" which has nothing to do with the public show displayed every four year in the US. Whatever happens in China, it happens according to the requirement of the time and the pace and stage of development. Expect tougher laws as China climbs the economic ladder. 

Further accountability is only good for the nation. Imagine, if your government had such a concept, you would not be in the mess called the Middle East today. Bush did it, because he knew his back would be covered even his "mission accomplished" failed severely.

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## Hamartia Antidote

TaiShang said:


> Further accountability is only good for the nation. Imagine, if your government had such a concept, you would not be in the mess called the Middle East today. Bush did it, because he knew his back would be covered even his "mission accomplished" failed severely.



You just have a differing view of what the mission was. If the mission was to take away Saddam's ability to keep his neighbors in constant fear by overrunning them with thousands of tanks and planes (and of course other bad stuff that he has used before)...well it was accomplished. Iraq used to be the 4th largest military in the world.

You think they are anywhere close to that now??? You think the US failed SEVERELY???? WTF??

Iraqi Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Iran–Iraq War ended in 1988 with Iraq fielding the world's fourth largest military, with 49 army divisions, 6 Republican Guard divisions, an estimated 513 combat aircraft in the Iraqi Air Force, and a small navy"

Find Iraq's position now on this or ANY list you can dig up
Most Powerful Military Ranking - Business Insider


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## Azeri440

senheiser said:


> east > west



yet, you live in west


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## Keel

Good for group travelling like orchestras, dancing troupe, sports teams
Not bad for business travel as wi-fi and net meeting can make the train compartment a much better and more comfortable multi-party workplace than several hours flight on the plane's tiny business class seats
Irreplaceable for transport of goods and commodities

Improving relationship between China and Russia and quality of lives of them have made a lot of people excessively jealous which can be understood from the posters with negative comments here above

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> There s something that never changes and this is german workerlaws as well as the structure of the railways. German railways corporation id nationalized. DB. It is banned for foreign corporations to operate railways on german ground. This law is from Bismarck, survived WW I, WW II, the cold war and reunion. Nothing can shake this. A chinese train operated from chinese staff will never operate on german land. It would be a security risk and definitly not in german interest.



Don't listen to Markus with his half truth.

Foreign rail operators are allowed to operate in Germany if they are transnational, that is e.g. French Thalys can run between Paris and Cologne, Danish DSB operates between Copenhagen and Hamburg, etc. What is not allowed are foreign operators operating only within Germany. But since the train comes from Beijing, it's just the same as the above mentioned situation.

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## INDIC

Flight will still be better for such long distances.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Don't listen to Markus with his half truth.
> 
> Foreign rail operators are allowed to operate in Germany if they are transnational, that is e.g. French Thalys can run between Paris and Cologne, Danish DSB operates between Copenhagen and Hamburg, etc. What is not allowed are foreign operators operating only within Germany. But since the train comes from Beijing, it's just the same as the above mentioned situation.



Your bad english skills once again kick yourself in the ***. There is only one railway operator in germany: DB Netz. No other is allowed to operate railways inside germany. rails. I´m not talking about trains. 

Beside that all trains mentioned are from EU nations. China definitly is not member of the EU. And it makes zero sense for the Eu to allow pathetic backwarded technology on its rails.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> Your bad english skills once again kick yourself in the ***. There is only one railway operator in germany: DB Netz. No other is allowed to operate railways inside germany. rails. I´m not talking about trains.
> 
> Beside that all trains mentioned are from EU nations. China definitly is not member of the EU. And it makes zero sense for the Eu to allow pathetic backwarded technology on its rails.



Your stupidity kicks in again. Where did I say that foreign rail companies are allowed to operate the track network? 

And why did a topic about HSR coming all the way from Beijing via Moscow to Berlin becomes foreign railways operating in Germany? Where is the difference with Thalys connecting Paris with Cologne?

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Your stupidity kicks in again. Where did I say that foreign rail companies are allowed to operate the track network?
> 
> And why did a topic about HSR coming all the way from Beijing via Moscow to Berlin becomes foreign railways operating in Germany? Where is the difference with Thalys connecting Paris with Cologne?



The DB also offers ICE traffc to Paris and soon also too London. Its a joined network. To believe that a chinese corporation would be allowed to operate within the EU without complete mixture with DB, Thalys and so on is laughable at best.


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## Aepsilons

Edison Chen said:


> Every citizen or taxpayer has the right to keep an eye on how the money is being used or to see if it is wasted. The new amendment of China's budget law set more detailed procedures to make fiscal appropriation more transparent and easily supervised, to improve the effectiveness of the functionality of government and reduce corruption. We have the right to question the government.



Next, it will be the call for an independent judiciary. One that will have the right to investigate even the CPC, including the Central Committee.



Edison Chen said:


> _*The project would cost more than $230 billion and be over 7,000 kilometres. *_
> 
> Who the hell will travel by train to Russia, other than tourists? Even many tourists will fly there. This is not a lucrative project at all.. Are you kidding me, 230 billion? I have no problem if Russia pays for it. Even in China, our HSR system is not complete yet, we should concentrate on our own business and leave Russia alone.



That's going to be an absolute waste of money. That $230 Billion should go to investing infrastructure, especially in the underdeveloped provinces in the west. 

That money will go straight to the pockets of certain ministry officials ; as well as Russian and Chinese construction firms' side pockets.

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> The DB also offers ICE traffc to Paris and soon also too London. Its a joined network. To believe that a chinese corporation would be allowed to operate within the EU without complete mixture with DB, Thalys and so on is laughable at best.



What hinders the DB or SNCF to offer the same service to Beijing in the future once the tracks are ready? There will be millions of Chinese tourists who would like to try out the ICE and Thalys all the way from China to Europe, in fact there are already millions/ annum visiting Paris right now. Only your petit bourgeois mind hinders you to see the large picture, as always.


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## Götterdämmerung

People criticising long distance rail are very short sighted. HSR uses electricity and the sources to make electricity are penny, ranging from PV, hydro, wind, fission, gas, and in the future probably fusion.

Air planes can only fly with oil and that is definitely finite in the foreseeable future.


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## Edison Chen

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Next, it will be the call for *an independent judiciary*. One that will have the right to investigate even the CPC, including the Central Committee.



That is exactly what I am hoping. 




Nihonjin1051 said:


> That's going to be an absolute waste of money. That $230 Billion should go to investing infrastructure, especially in the underdeveloped provinces in the west.
> 
> That money will go straight to the pockets of certain ministry officials ; as well as Russian and Chinese construction firms' side pockets.



If it is used for cargo, it's ok, but if for passengers, no.


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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> What hinders the DB or SNCF to offer the same service to Beijing in the future once the tracks are ready? There will be millions of Chinese tourists who would like to try out the ICE and Thalys all the way from China to Europe, in fact there are already millions/ annum visiting Paris right now. Only your petit bourgeois mind hinders you to see the large picture, as always.



common sense hinders DB to offer the same service to Beijing. The market would be near zero. It is laughable to believe that enough people want sit 4 days in a train to china when they can do the same within 10 hours per plane. You do realize that we currently work on SST as well as SSTO? By the time this thrombosis railway would be finished, we have a travel time frankfurt - beijing in 2 hours.


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## TaiShang

​
Chinese and Russian policemen attend a joint anti-terror drill in Manzhouli City, north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, Oct. 20, 2014. In order to boost coordinated ability to fight terrorism in the border region, Chinese and Russian police held a anti-terror drill on Monday, which involves planning hostage rescues and physical competitions between both squads. [Photo/Xinhua]


​
Chinese and Russian policemen attend a joint anti-terror drill in Manzhouli City, north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, Oct. 20, 2014. In order to boost coordinated ability to fight terrorism in the border region, Chinese and Russian police held a anti-terror drill on Monday, which involves planning hostage rescues and physical competitions between both squads. [Photo/Xinhua]


​
Chinese and Russian policemen attend a joint anti-terror drill in Manzhouli City, north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, Oct. 20, 2014. In order to boost coordinated ability to fight terrorism in the border region, Chinese and Russian police held a anti-terror drill on Monday, which involves planning hostage rescues and physical competitions between both squads. [Photo/Xinhua]


​
Chinese and Russian policemen attend a joint anti-terror drill in Manzhouli City, north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, Oct. 20, 2014. In order to boost coordinated ability to fight terrorism in the border region, Chinese and Russian police held a anti-terror drill on Monday, which involves planning hostage rescues and physical competitions between both squads. [Photo/Xinhua]


​
Chinese and Russian policemen attend a joint anti-terror drill in Manzhouli City, north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, Oct. 20, 2014. In order to boost coordinated ability to fight terrorism in the border region, Chinese and Russian police held a anti-terror drill on Monday, which involves planning hostage rescues and physical competitions between both squads. [Photo/Xinhua]

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## Beidou2020

Both Russia and China need to enhance their anti-terror operations, intelligence, counter-intelligence.

Both countries were infiltrated by US NGO's causing mass protests which proved their intelligence agencies did not do their job.

Anti-terror operations are very important to prevent the US and its Wahabi terrorists from entering Russia and China. Chechans and Uighers must be fully monitored.

US has shown that an advanced intelligence network is even more important to countering big powers than military power itself.

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## vtnsx

Beidou2020 said:


> Both Russia and China need to enhance their anti-terror operations, intelligence, counter-intelligence.
> 
> Both countries were infiltrated by US NGO's causing mass protests which proved their intelligence agencies did not do their job.
> 
> Anti-terror operations are very important to prevent the US and its Wahabi terrorists from entering Russia and China. Chechans and Uighers must be fully monitored.
> 
> US has shown that an advanced intelligence network is even more important to countering big powers than military power itself.

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## cnleio

LOL... Russian using QBZ-95


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## AgentOrange

vtnsx said:


>



No need to feel left out little Viet. I heard Vietnam invited Russia to participate in fish sauce fermentation drills later this month. Russia declined, I believe.

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## TaiShang

vtnsx said:


>



Sums up an average Viet's life.



Beidou2020 said:


> Both Russia and China need to enhance their anti-terror operations, intelligence, counter-intelligence.
> 
> Both countries were infiltrated by US NGO's causing mass protests which proved their intelligence agencies did not do their job.
> 
> Anti-terror operations are very important to prevent the US and its Wahabi terrorists from entering Russia and China. Chechans and Uighers must be fully monitored.
> 
> US has shown that an advanced intelligence network is even more important to countering big powers than military power itself.



I guess the respective nations are working something comprehensive on the security front.

*China, Russia to sign information security pact*






_A huge slogan board in front of the U.S. Capitol building during a protest against government surveillance in Washington D.C., capital of the United Sates, on Oct. 26, 2013 [Xinhua]_

A Russian daily report says *Beijing and Moscow will ink an information security pact *during the upcoming Vladimir Putin visit to China.

*As Russian and Chinese business and government agencies face more intrusions,* the two BRICS members are looking to step up cooperation on fighting cyber attacks and the threat of sensitive technology ending up in the wrong hands.

A Kremlin source was quoted by the _Kommersant_ business daily on Tuesday as saying the agreement could be signed during Putin’s meeting with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping on 10th November. The move has been seen as a necessary step in the wake of revelations leaked to media in June 2013 by CIA whistle-blower Edward Snowden about the National Security Agency’s (NSA) global espionage and communication monitoring scheme, known as Prism.

*A joint declaration at the end of the 6th BRICS Summit in Brazil earlier this year said the bloc of five will explore “Russia’s proposal of a BRICS agreement on cooperation” in cyber-security.*

BRICS nations were angered by revelations by US whistleblower Snowden that the US National Security Agency snooped on oil and energy firms in Brazil and intercepted calls and emails of Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff.

In July this year, *Putin said the current cyber-espionage narrative “not only amounts to overt hypocrisy in relationships between allies and partners, but also a direct violation of the state’s sovereignty, an infringement on human rights and an invasion of privacy”.*

Meanwhile, in yet another recent episode that threatens to undo efforts aimed at finding common ground to tackle hacking, the Chinese Foreign Ministry this month told the US to stop “fabricating stories” and “mudslinging” about alleged Chinese commercial spying. A Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) official has accused China of stealing secrets from US firms.

Sino-US ties have long been dogged by accusations of cyber espionage.

*In May this year, a senior Chinese military officer labelled the United States the world’s biggest cyber-thief a week after a grand jury in Washington indicted five Chinese officers on charges of hacking into American companies to steal trade secrets.*

*“In terms of both military and political intelligence and trade secrets, the United States is the world’s No.1 cyber thief and its spying force should be indicted,”* Sun Jianguo, deputy chief of General Staff of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, said.

“From Wikileaks to the Snowden incident, the U.S. hypocrisy and double standards on the issue of network security have long been obvious,” the Chinese Defence Ministry said in a statement, lashing out at the US indictment.

*The US is the biggest attacker of China’s cyberspace, with US servers taking control of 1.18 million Chinese host computers between March 19 and May 18, according to the China Internet information office.*

Meanwhile, European Union member states have called on the EU Parliament to adopt legislation on new data protection as soon as next year. This follows reports from Austrian media, which published a number of photographs claiming they proved that the Washington-based NSA was operating a secret listening post a short distance from the Vienna International Centre (VIC).

The photos depict a listening post atop a skyscraper in the Austrian capital Vienna, located next door to the VIC which is considered the third United Nations headquarters after New York and Geneva, and regularly hosts meetings.

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## AgentOrange

TaiShang said:


> Sums up an average Viet's life.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the respective nations are working something comprehensive on the security front.
> 
> *China, Russia to sign information security pact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _A huge slogan board in front of the U.S. Capitol building during a protest against government surveillance in Washington D.C., capital of the United Sates, on Oct. 26, 2013 [Xinhua]_
> 
> A Russian daily report says *Beijing and Moscow will ink an information security pact *during the upcoming Vladimir Putin visit to China.
> 
> *As Russian and Chinese business and government agencies face more intrusions,* the two BRICS members are looking to step up cooperation on fighting cyber attacks and the threat of sensitive technology ending up in the wrong hands.
> 
> A Kremlin source was quoted by the _Kommersant_ business daily on Tuesday as saying the agreement could be signed during Putin’s meeting with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping on 10th November. The move has been seen as a necessary step in the wake of revelations leaked to media in June 2013 by CIA whistle-blower Edward Snowden about the National Security Agency’s (NSA) global espionage and communication monitoring scheme, known as Prism.
> 
> *A joint declaration at the end of the 6th BRICS Summit in Brazil earlier this year said the bloc of five will explore “Russia’s proposal of a BRICS agreement on cooperation” in cyber-security.*
> 
> BRICS nations were angered by revelations by US whistleblower Snowden that the US National Security Agency snooped on oil and energy firms in Brazil and intercepted calls and emails of Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff.
> 
> In July this year, *Putin said the current cyber-espionage narrative “not only amounts to overt hypocrisy in relationships between allies and partners, but also a direct violation of the state’s sovereignty, an infringement on human rights and an invasion of privacy”.*
> 
> Meanwhile, in yet another recent episode that threatens to undo efforts aimed at finding common ground to tackle hacking, the Chinese Foreign Ministry this month told the US to stop “fabricating stories” and “mudslinging” about alleged Chinese commercial spying. A Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) official has accused China of stealing secrets from US firms.
> 
> Sino-US ties have long been dogged by accusations of cyber espionage.
> 
> *In May this year, a senior Chinese military officer labelled the United States the world’s biggest cyber-thief a week after a grand jury in Washington indicted five Chinese officers on charges of hacking into American companies to steal trade secrets.*
> 
> *“In terms of both military and political intelligence and trade secrets, the United States is the world’s No.1 cyber thief and its spying force should be indicted,”* Sun Jianguo, deputy chief of General Staff of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, said.
> 
> “From Wikileaks to the Snowden incident, the U.S. hypocrisy and double standards on the issue of network security have long been obvious,” the Chinese Defence Ministry said in a statement, lashing out at the US indictment.
> 
> *The US is the biggest attacker of China’s cyberspace, with US servers taking control of 1.18 million Chinese host computers between March 19 and May 18, according to the China Internet information office.*
> 
> Meanwhile, European Union member states have called on the EU Parliament to adopt legislation on new data protection as soon as next year. This follows reports from Austrian media, which published a number of photographs claiming they proved that the Washington-based NSA was operating a secret listening post a short distance from the Vienna International Centre (VIC).
> 
> The photos depict a listening post atop a skyscraper in the Austrian capital Vienna, located next door to the VIC which is considered the third United Nations headquarters after New York and Geneva, and regularly hosts meetings.



Bro, I think that information security pact is worthy of a thread all by itself. Certainly an important piece of news!

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## Beidou2020

AgentOrange said:


> Bro, I think that information security pact is worthy of a thread all by itself. Certainly an important piece of news!



Agreed. That is big news.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia to sign information security pact

The BRICS Post*





_A huge slogan board in front of the U.S. Capitol building during a protest against government surveillance in Washington D.C., capital of the United Sates, on Oct. 26, 2013 [Xinhua]_

A Russian daily report says *Beijing and Moscow will ink an information security pact *during the upcoming Vladimir Putin visit to China.

*As Russian and Chinese business and government agencies face more intrusions,* the two BRICS members are looking to step up cooperation on fighting cyber attacks and the threat of sensitive technology ending up in the wrong hands.

A Kremlin source was quoted by the _Kommersant_ business daily on Tuesday as saying the agreement could be signed during Putin’s meeting with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping on 10th November. The move has been seen as a necessary step in the wake of revelations leaked to media in June 2013 by CIA whistle-blower Edward Snowden about the National Security Agency’s (NSA) global espionage and communication monitoring scheme, known as Prism.

*A joint declaration at the end of the 6th BRICS Summit in Brazil earlier this year said the bloc of five will explore “Russia’s proposal of a BRICS agreement on cooperation” in cyber-security.*

BRICS nations were angered by revelations by US whistleblower Snowden that the US National Security Agency snooped on oil and energy firms in Brazil and intercepted calls and emails of Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff.

In July this year, *Putin said the current cyber-espionage narrative “not only amounts to overt hypocrisy in relationships between allies and partners, but also a direct violation of the state’s sovereignty, an infringement on human rights and an invasion of privacy”.*

Meanwhile, in yet another recent episode that threatens to undo efforts aimed at finding common ground to tackle hacking, the Chinese Foreign Ministry this month told the US to stop “fabricating stories” and “mudslinging” about alleged Chinese commercial spying. A Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) official has accused China of stealing secrets from US firms.

Sino-US ties have long been dogged by accusations of cyber espionage.

*In May this year, a senior Chinese military officer labelled the United States the world’s biggest cyber-thief a week after a grand jury in Washington indicted five Chinese officers on charges of hacking into American companies to steal trade secrets.*

*“In terms of both military and political intelligence and trade secrets, the United States is the world’s No.1 cyber thief and its spying force should be indicted,”* Sun Jianguo, deputy chief of General Staff of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, said.

“From Wikileaks to the Snowden incident, the U.S. hypocrisy and double standards on the issue of network security have long been obvious,” the Chinese Defence Ministry said in a statement, lashing out at the US indictment.

*The US is the biggest attacker of China’s cyberspace, with US servers taking control of 1.18 million Chinese host computers between March 19 and May 18, according to the China Internet information office.*

Meanwhile, European Union member states have called on the EU Parliament to adopt legislation on new data protection as soon as next year. This follows reports from Austrian media, which published a number of photographs claiming they proved that the Washington-based NSA was operating a secret listening post a short distance from the Vienna International Centre (VIC).

The photos depict a listening post atop a skyscraper in the Austrian capital Vienna, located next door to the VIC which is considered the third United Nations headquarters after New York and Geneva, and regularly hosts meetings.

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## vtnsx

AgentOrange said:


> No need to feel left out little Viet. I heard Vietnam invited Russia to participate in fish sauce fermentation drills later this month. Russia declined, I believe.



Oh was that too sensitive to ya? aww, guess I did. Keep licking them lollipop.


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## AgentOrange

vtnsx said:


> Oh was that too sensitive to ya? aww, guess I did. Keep licking them lollipop.


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## Viet

senheiser said:


> Posted: October 18, 2014
> Russian Submarine The Amur 1650 To Be Given To China, India’s Nuclear Energy Welcomed By Russia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new Russian submarine design called the Amur 1650 is going to be sold to China, with Vladimir Putin hoping that Russia’s economic recession may be averted partially by making deals with the Chinese. Russia also publicly welcomed the expansion of India’s nuclear energy.
> 
> 
> In a related report by _The Inquisitr_, the Russian military successfully tested a Bulava intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) launched from the Russian nuclear submarine the Vladimir Monomakh. The U.S. Navy believes that the newest of China’s nuclear submarines the Jin SSBN “would mark China’s first credible at-sea-second-strike nuclear capability.” There’s also talk of a Chinese supersonic submarine that could cross the pacific in less than 100 minutes.
> 
> Vladimir Putin has publicly stated that Russia’s nuclear weapons and the Russian submarine fleet will be given an overhaul in the next five to 10 years. To give readers an idea for why this is considered necessary, this was the condition of a Soviet era Viktor-class Russian submarine when it was decommissioned.
> 
> _Next Big Future_. It’s also believed Russia will sign contracts to deliver S-400 missile systems and Su-35 fighter jets to China in the first quarter of 2015. In addition to the Russian submarine and other weapons, the two governments agreed to swap swap $25 billion in Chinese yuan for Russian rubles over three years. They also created economic treaties to benefit both countries. There’s also talk of creating a $250 billion high speed rail project that would connect Moscow to Beijing, which would allow China to greatly lower the cost of trade with Europe.
> 
> According to the _Economic Times_, the tensions between the U.S. and Russia were also raised when India’s nuclear energy plans were announced. Russian Ambassador to India Alexander M. Kadakin told reporters they desire a stable India, and that sustainable development in solving their energy problems was necessary. Kadakin took a jab at the United States by claiming “there is zero technology coming from US to India. India is producing the world’s best nuclear power project with Russia in Koodankulam. US has not given even a nail to this nuclear site.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986 @Chinese-Dragon @Beidou2020 @TaiShang @cirr @Nihonjin1051 @Viet @Kiss_of_the_Dragon@kaykay @IndoUS


what do you expect to hear from me?

you should care of balance of power in the region. if you sell advanced subs to china, then you should deliver us with advanced subs as well. it is NOT in your interest if China dominates the south china sea. the potential of blackmail or use or threat of force increases for all of us. for you, too.


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## mike2000

vtnsx said:


>



Ahaahahah , you are funny bro,


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## Viet

if I recall, your last terror drill involved warships. that one is lame


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> common sense hinders DB to offer the same service to Beijing. The market would be near zero. It is laughable to believe that enough people want sit 4 days in a train to china when they can do the same within 10 hours per plane. You do realize that we currently work on SST as well as SSTO? By the time this thrombosis railway would be finished, we have a travel time frankfurt - beijing in 2 hours.



It's pure irony that you should talk about common sense. Trains departing from Hamburg to Munich or Zurich are not full of people who travel all the way from these two destinations, don't you know? There are people leaving and boarding at all the stations in between.

All your SST and SSTO will be rendered unaffordable, particularly for mass transportation, when oil will run dry.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> It's pure irony that you should talk about common sense. Trains departing from Hamburg to Munich or Zurich are not full of people who travel all the way from these two destinations, don't you know? There are people leaving and boarding at all the stations in between.
> 
> All your SST and SSTO will be rendered unaffordable, particularly for mass transportation, when oil will run dry.



SST and SSTO do not run on oil but hydrogen. You are not up to date anymore.

As for your train statement. Ther simply are no important destinations between a big nothing from moscow to beijing. It is that simple. Thats a white elephant.

If i want go Beijing i take the airplane. What am i supposed to do when i have to sit 4 days in a train?


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## Mercenary

Damn 230 Billion.

What a crazy amount of money.

What kind of economic advantages will result from this high speed train?

230 Billion is the same cost as building as the Trans-Atlantic Railway between London and New York.


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## somsak

Aha...

Train vs Air thread.
"Because air is better in every sense, there is no need to build fast train"
This is basic logic for those support Air.

But a rail line of n stations can have n(n-1) methods of get up and down. Take n=30, there will be 870 methods of catching the train. These 870 methods of sending goods, passengers, are what Air cannot do.

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## ChineseTiger1986

An unprecedented treaty on cybersecurity cooperation could be signed during Vladimir Putin’s state visit to China in November, a Russian business daily reports.

Popular newspaper Kommersant quoted unnamed sources “_close to the Kremlin_” as saying that the final text of the “_two-sided agreement on cooperation in the field of information security_” was not ready yet, but officials hope the document will be signed on November 10.

The draft treaty states the two countries oppose the use of information technology to meddle in the internal affairs of independent states, to undermine national sovereignty as well as political, economic and social stability and public order, Kommersant reported.

The daily’s sources also added that Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping were expected to deliver a joint address on cybersecurity in the course of Putin’s visit to China.

According to Kommersant the Russian-Chinese treaty will be much greater in scale than a similar agreement signed between Russia and the United States in 2013. The Russia-US pact only worked at getting out of acute crises through measures like creating dedicated hotlines between national authorities for quick problem-solving. The treaty with China would allow the development of joint projects and conducting joint cybersecurity operations.

The newspaper called the future document a logical continuation of the already established Russian-Chinese policy for preserving information security as part of an agreement prepared within the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The deputy head of the Russian Institute for Informational Security Problems emphasized that Russia and China had no fear of mutual attacks, but was promoting cooperation in the sphere.

The news about the future agreement came shortly after a top Chinese official complained about a stall in similar talks between China and United States. "_Due to mistaken U.S. practices, it is difficult at this juncture to resume Sino-U.S. cybersecurity dialogue and cooperation_," the Reuters news agency quoted Chinese State Councilor for Foreign Affairs, Yang Jiechi, as saying after his meeting with Secretary of State John Kerry.

Russia, China prepare to sign unique cybersecurity treaty - report — RT Russian politics

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## TaiShang

The agreement seems to intend to target the social media to be a used as a destabilizing fifth column inside China and Russia with the aim of promoting Western (US) strategic interests. That's has been long due.

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> SST and SSTO do not run on oil but hydrogen. You are not up to date anymore.
> 
> As for your train statement. Ther simply are no important destinations between a big nothing from moscow to beijing. It is that simple. Thats a white elephant.
> 
> If i want go Beijing i take the airplane. What am i supposed to do when i have to sit 4 days in a train?



Yeah, hydrogen, people have been waiting for the hydrogen car for at least the last 25 years at least and the date to get them on the market gets pushed again and again to a distant future.

Unitl today, the only vehicles that have been using hydogen as a propellant were rockets and we know how much each rocket launch costs, don't we?

Between Moscow and Beijing, there are at least one dozen cities with more than 1 million inhabitants, depending which route you take. From Moscow to Berlin, it connects four capitals and another dozen large cities. Get yourself informed, ignoramus!

As I said before, nobody says that most passengers will travel the whole distance from Berlin to Beijing by train, most will travel under 1000 km and there are enough large cities along this line to fill the trains. 

While your SST and SSTO are a distant dream, the train is already reality in many parts of the world. In case your SST and SSTO will turn out to be the same as the hydrogen car, and oil will run dry, you either stay at home or take the train and travel for four days to Beijing.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Yeah, hydrogen, people have been waiting for the hydrogen car for at least the last 25 years at least and the date to get them on the market gets pushed again and again to a distant future.
> 
> Unitl today, the only vehicles that have been using hydogen as a propellant were rockets and we know how much each rocket launch costs, don't we?
> 
> Between Moscow and Beijing, there are at least one dozen cities with more than 1 million inhabitants, depending which route you take. From Moscow to Berlin, it connects four capitals and another dozen large cities. Get yourself informed, ignoramus!
> 
> As I said before, nobody says that most passengers will travel the whole distance from Berlin to Beijing by train, most will travel under 1000 km and there are enough large cities along this line to fill the trains.
> 
> While your SST and SSTO are a distant dream, the train is already reality in many parts of the world. In case your SST and SSTO will turn out to be the same as the hydrogen car, and oil will run dry, you either stay at home or take the train and travel for four days to Beijing.




You do realize that hydrogen is already used to fly the Space Shuttle since 1981 and also powers the Saturn V and any other liquid rocket engine? I´m not talking about fusion you fool. And nope, i don´t travel by train. Not even inside germany. I take always the airplane from munich to Hamburg or Berlin. Lufthansa City Line. Trains are cool for poor people.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> You do realize that hydrogen is already used to fly the Space Shuttle since 1981 and also powers the Saturn V and any other liquid rocket engine? I´m not talking about fusion you fool. And nope, i don´t travel by train. Not even inside germany. I take always the airplane from munich to Hamburg or Berlin. Lufthansa City Line. Trains are cool for poor people.



Didn't I say that hydrogen has been in use only in rockets and how much does each rocket launch cost? Look, you village idiot, I never said anything about fusion.

Trains are for poor people, I see, you are a nouveau riche. Well, according to your previous statements about your income, you are not even nouveau riche, you are worse, you are a wannabe nouveau riche. 

Old money doesn't talk about the poverty of other people in public.

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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> You do realize that hydrogen is already used to fly the Space Shuttle since 1981 and also powers the Saturn V and any other liquid rocket engine? I´m not talking about fusion you fool. And nope, i don´t travel by train. Not even inside germany. I take always the airplane from munich to Hamburg or Berlin. Lufthansa City Line. Trains are cool for poor people.



markuss travel dreams of the future


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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Didn't I say that hydrogen has been in use only in rockets and how much does each rocket launch cost? Look, you village idiot, I never said anything about fusion.
> 
> Trains are for poor people, I see, you are a nouveau riche. Well, according to your previous statements about your income, you are not even nouveau riche, you are worse, you are a wannabe nouveau riche.
> 
> Old money doesn't talk about the poverty of other people in public.




The space shuttle is not a rocket. I see this entire topic is too much for you. I also guess you don´t know the SABRE engines which are developed right now. My own employer develops a system called ZEHST. 

As for trains...people who can´t afford to take the airplane can go by train. It is slower and staff is rude...and you have annoying people around you. I love Lufthansa City Line...Here for example from yesterday morning:







I went from Leipzig to Frankfurt. Its soo much better than train in evry aspect.



senheiser said:


> markuss travel dreams of the future



And your travel dreams of the present:


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## senheiser

MarkusS said:


> The space shuttle is not a rocket. I see this entire topic is too much for you. I also guess you don´t know the SABRE engines which are developed right now. My own employer develops a system called ZEHST.
> 
> As for trains...people who can´t afford to take the airplane can go by train. It is slower and staff is rude...and you have annoying people around you. I love Lufthansa City Line...Here for example from yesterday morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went from Leipzig to Frankfurt. Its soo much better than train in evry aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> And your travel dreams of the present:



LOL you love lufthansa? they strike flights since weeks like every fricking quartal

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## MarkusS

senheiser said:


> LOL you love lufthansa? they strike flights since weeks like every fricking quartal




Thats normal and the right of evryone, based on the german constitution.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> The space shuttle is not a rocket. I see this entire topic is too much for you. I also guess you don´t know the SABRE engines which are developed right now. My own employer develops a system called ZEHST.
> 
> As for trains...people who can´t afford to take the airplane can go by train. It is slower and staff is rude...and you have annoying people around you. I love Lufthansa City Line...Here for example from yesterday morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went from Leipzig to Frankfurt. Its soo much better than train in evry aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> And your travel dreams of the present:




How did the Space Shuttle lift off from the ground, smartass?




Oh, is it as bird? No, it's a rocket! 

ZEST will not be in service until the 2050s and we know how real these predictions are, don't we. 

I won't go as low and desperate as you to show pics of plane accidents to make a point. And I also don't see your point in showing us your own pictures of a Lufthansa airplane. Is flying still such a novelty for you? Your parents couldn't afford to fly to vacation with you in your childhood and now it's something you need to show off?

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## Nexus

230 billions.... even USA can't afford it


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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> How did the Space Shuttle lift off from the ground, smartass?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, is it as bird? No, it's a rocket!
> 
> ZEST will not be in service until the 2050s and we know how real these predictions are, don't we.
> 
> I won't go as low and desperate as you to show pics of plane accidents to make a point. And I also don't see your point in showing us your own pictures of a Lufthansa airplane. Is flying still such a novelty for you? Your parents couldn't afford to fly to vacation with you in your childhood and now it's something you need to show off?




It is not a rocket. I think you don´t know the basics of aviation. The Space Shuttle is classified as a Space Plane. 

We have plenty of oil until ZEHST goes into comission. 

And nope, flying is my job. I love it. Why should i waste my time in a train?


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> It is not a rocket. I think you don´t know the basics of aviation. The Space Shuttle is classified as a Space Plane.
> 
> We have plenty of oil until ZEHST goes into comission.
> 
> And nope, flying is my job. I love it. Why should i waste my time in a train?



Goodness, you are stupid beyond believe. What can you do with the Space Shuttle without the rockets lifting it into outer space?

Yeah, plenty of oil in your parallel universe.





Over seven billion people in this world just don't give a flying **** what you do. You can fly, drive or crawl as much as you want.

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## Keel

Mercenary said:


> Damn 230 Billion.
> 
> What a crazy amount of money.
> 
> What kind of economic advantages will result from this high speed train?
> 
> 230 Billion is the same cost as building as the Trans-Atlantic Railway between London and New York.



Nah, the estimation of $230 billion is not excessive at all 

The actual cost of building HSR from Shanghai to Beijing was about $32 billion or about $48 mln/mi in 2010 

As quote in the OP the length of the railway is about 4,350 miles so the estimated project cost = $48 mil / mile x 4,350 miles = $ 209 billion @ 2010 price level 

And SH-BJ HSR was built in much less hostile temperature and terraine than the extremely frigid and challenging landscapes between Moscow and BJ 

I wish the cost of $230 billion is not under-estimated really

Take another example, the cost per mile in USA as Biden said below for a "ONE LANE and LINEAR" system in Philadelphia is $40 to 50 million " 



> “If you shut down Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor,” Biden said, “you’d have to add seven new lanes to I-95 to accommodate the traffic.” He then went on to cite the cost-benefit analysis of building rail instead of road. The construction cost for an average linear mile of one lane through the city of Philadelphia ranges from $40-50 million. And one new runway, like the one Atlanta just built in its Hartsfield-Jackson Airport, costs $1.3 billion.
> “Amtrak Joe” Biden, in Philly, Announces a New Plan for High-Speed Rail | Streetsblog USA



The $230 billion is absolutely value for money 

As for the economic value of building it, check with my comment @# 94

There is a vast ocean for HSR to cross over between NY and London


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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Goodness, you are stupid beyond believe. What can you do with the Space Shuttle without the rockets lifting it into outer space?
> 
> Yeah, plenty of oil in your parallel universe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over seven billion people in this world just don't give a flying **** what you do. You can fly, drive or crawl as much as you want.



You have no clue as usual. The Space Shuttle does not use "rockets" as form of propulsion. Its SSME are installed engines. It is classified as a space plane. The only remotly rocket type part of the orbiter are its SRB, and those run on solid fuel. im talking with a noob here. btw your chart shows new discoveries. It says nothing about the size of that oil field.


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## powastick

MarkusS said:


> You have no clue as usual. The Space Shuttle does not use "rockets" as form of propulsion. Its SSME are installed engines. It is classified as a space plane. The only remotly rocket type part of the orbiter are its SRB, and those run on solid fuel. im talking with a noob here. btw your chart shows new discoveries. It says nothing about the size of that oil field.


Space Shuttle does not use rocket? Please elaborate.


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## MarkusS

powastick said:


> Space Shuttle does not use rocket? Please elaborate.



The space shuttle is not classified as a rocket. It is classified as a spaceplane. It needs support of two SRB in the first two minutes of its flight, because its own engines (three SSME) can't lift the entire external tank in the beginning of its path towards orbit. The two SRB which are attached left and right are rockets, the orbiter itself is not. Butbthats a technical definition issue.


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## cirr

Nexus said:


> 230 billions.... even USA can't afford it



The US can't afford a lot of things。

For example，it can't afford letting go of Israel。

By the way，230 billion is not that much money considering that the line will，if ever，be built over 20-30 years，with annual investment of less than 10 billion USD which is less than what India’s spend on foreign military hardwares each year。

The estimated cost of the California high-speed rail，at 1/7 length of the Beijing-Moscow line，and with a completion time for 2028，is about 70 billion USD。

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## Nexus

cirr said:


> The US can't afford a lot of things。
> 
> For example，it can't afford letting go of Israel。
> 
> By the way，230 billion is not that much money considering that the line will，if ever，be built over 20-30 years，with annual investment of less than 10 billion USD which is less than what India’s spend on foreign military hardwares each year。
> 
> The estimated cost of the California high-speed rail，at 1/7 length of the Beijing-Moscow line，and with a completion time for 2028，is about 70 billion USD。



well, I am not saying that its dumb idea with long high speed rail u can transport anything and everything u want but I think that spending 230$ on rail line is not good idea.
who is going to pay for line ?and % ?


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## mike2000

blah bla bla......just build it then talk. I have heard of
several such projects in the past which never/will never come to pass.


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## narcon

China's Main Competitor in Space Exploration is India, Not Russia: Researcher | Analysis & Opinion | RIA Novosti 





In this photo released by China's Xinhua News Agency, scientists work at the Beijing Aerospace Control Center (BACC) in Beijing.




MOSCOW, October 24 (RIA Novosti) - China's principal competitor in space exploration is India, not Russia, researcher at the Russian Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Vasily Kashin told RIA Novosti on Friday.

*"China and India are two new space powers. They have vast resources and consider their space programs from the national prestige perspective ," the expert said.*

He added that China and India are following Russian and US footsteps in space exploration.

"China's more developed space-rocket industry and immense resources have let it take the lead in the two countries' space race," Kashin argued.

Despite being behind China in space exploration, India has a significant advantage, according to the researcher.

"China is still under rigid restrictions on any form of cooperation with the United States, including on the purchase of components … The Chinese are forced to do many things on their own and they sometimes cannot produce components of a required level. The Indians have less resources, but they are in good relations with everyone. India can cooperate with both Russia and the West, adopting their best technologies," Kashin concluded.

Earlier on Friday, China launched an experimental spacecraft to the moon orbit, which is to return to Earth in eight days. The spacecraft is to test out re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere for the planned 2017 Chang'e-5 lunar mission.



> Dr. Jones, however, thinks that we are seeing the makings of a new space race; not between the US and Russia but between the countries of Asia.
> 
> “I think that what we are seeing these days in the 21 century is a new space race, mostly happening in Asia, between nations like China and Japan and India and even South Korea, who want to send a probe to the Moon,” he says. “We see that nations which did not have much of a presence in space several decades ago are now asserting their economic development and their technological development by staging a new space race.”





> Jim Bell, a Professor at the School of Earth and Space Exploration at Arizona State University, an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Astronomy at Cornell University, and a Distinguished Visiting Scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California is also convinced that it is a great way for India “to demonstrate their technology, their ability to launch a spacecraft and to operate it at Mars.”
> 
> “As I’ve said, it is a very difficult thing – half of the missions have failed. It is hard to do and in case they do it, they would be in an exclusive club of nations,” he told Radio VR.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> You have no clue as usual. The Space Shuttle does not use "rockets" as form of propulsion. Its SSME are installed engines. It is classified as a space plane. The only remotly rocket type part of the orbiter are its SRB, and those run on solid fuel. im talking with a noob here. btw your chart shows new discoveries. It says nothing about the size of that oil field.



You are the one that has massive problem of losing an argument. Tell us how the lame duck Space Shuttle can lift itself up into space without the SRB!

BTW, each launch of the Space Shuttle costs approximately USD 1.5 billion. Even at 1/10th the cost for commercial/ passenger flights would render travelling with a future Space Shuttle for wannabe nouveau riche like you unaffordable.

Talking about clulessness, do you know what the Gb on the left of the chart means?

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## jkroo

There is no competition in space exploration in our mind. We do it for ourself and have our own goal. We do it independently. Our so called competitor is our exploration goal not other countries. We explore space with planned paces and dont do it in a hurry for compete issues. We have an integrated industry for every system.
Russia is a great country that had done great achievement in space exploration. Who can look down upon Russia? India? What a joke!

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## RKO

Pissing contest??? Plz...not again!!! China is far away...let us catch up!!

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## Guynextdoor2

Ehhh...wait a minute, I'm not in a hurry to see an Indian space station or human on moon. China different, India different.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> You are the one that has massive problem of losing an argument. Tell us how the lame duck Space Shuttle can lift itself up into space without the SRB!
> 
> BTW, each launch of the Space Shuttle costs approximately USD 1.5 billion. Even at 1/10th the cost for commercial/ passenger flights would render travelling with a future Space Shuttle for wannabe nouveau riche like you unaffordable.
> 
> Talking about clulessness, do you know what the Gb on the left of the chart means?



Now i got you Ossi. The Space Shuttle is able to launch with 2 configurations. The 1st option is the one with 2 SRB. It is the configuration which was always used to launch the shuttle. The Boosters generate 70% of thrust in the first 2 minutes. The Orbiter seperates at roughly 60km height and at 4 times the speed of sound. The orbiters own engines fire for additional 7 minutes and push the Shuttle to 28 times the speed of sound.

As you see the Shuttle only needs a helping hand in the first two minutes and there was option two, which was never used but possible any day: The Saturn Shuttle:






The Orbiter and external tank are placed atop a winged Saturn V-F1 Stage. At launch the F1 stage is also manned and it lifts the Shuttle at 60km height and Mach 4. After seperation the orbiter rises into orbit, the F1 Stage changes into horizontal flight, activates its jet engines and flies back to KCS and lands like any otehr airplane. 

Consider your puffy, red face be slapped from Wernher von Braun.

As for costs, the entire Space Shuttle fleet never had more than 4 orbiters ready at the same time. Each launch did cost 450 million $ because of that. Not 1.5 billion...thats teh building costs of one orbiter. Because the fleet is so small you simply have to provide the entire Infrastructure for only 4 orbiters.

In 1971 von Braun dreamed about a fleet consisting of more than 80 orbiters. For this huge fleet and its f1- launch stage costs pro passenger would be around 30.000 $ per seat. Thats only double the prize of the concorde ticket.

Political and budget cuts destroyed this plans. Senate only approved 4 orbiters Columbia, Challenger, Discovery and Atlantis and the option for a 5th Orbiter, Endeavour which would later replace Challenger. 

But the plans for much more orbiters were far enough that a comission had already looked for names. Names range from Constitution, Freedom, Valkyrie, Athena to Black Star and Huala.

For further information i can advice you the book: " The Space Shuttle - History of the national space transport system" from Jenkins. Its a must have read for evry aviation engineering student. 

Your argument is quite laughable if you mix launching costs with building costs.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> Now i got you Ossi. The Space Shuttle is able to launch with 2 configurations. The 1st option is the one with 2 SRB. It is the configuration which was always used to launch the shuttle. The Boosters generate 70% of thrust in the first 2 minutes. The Orbiter seperates at roughly 60km height and at 4 times the speed of sound. The orbiters own engines fire for additional 7 minutes and push the Shuttle to 28 times the speed of sound.
> 
> As you see the Shuttle only needs a helping hand in the first two minutes and there was option two, which was never used but possible any day: The Saturn Shuttle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Orbiter and external tank are placed atop a winged Saturn V-F1 Stage. At launch the F1 stage is also manned and it lifts the Shuttle at 60km height and Mach 4. After seperation the orbiter rises into orbit, the F1 Stage changes into horizontal flight, activates its jet engines and flies back to KCS and lands like any otehr airplane.
> 
> Consider your puffy, red face be slapped from Wernher von Braun.
> 
> As for costs, the entire Space Shuttle fleet never had more than 4 orbiters ready at the same time. Each launch did cost 450 million $ because of that. Not 1.5 billion...thats teh building costs of one orbiter. Because the fleet is so small you simply have to provide the entire Infrastructure for only 4 orbiters.
> 
> In 1971 von Braun dreamed about a fleet consisting of more than 80 orbiters. For this huge fleet and its f1- launch stage costs pro passenger would be around 30.000 $ per seat. Thats only double the prize of the concorde ticket.
> 
> Political and budget cuts destroyed this plans. Senate only approved 4 orbiters Columbia, Challenger, Discovery and Atlantis and the option for a 5th Orbiter, Endeavour which would later replace Challenger.
> 
> But the plans for much more orbiters were far enough that a comission had already looked for names. Names range from Constitution, Freedom, Valkyrie, Athena to Black Star and Huala.
> 
> For further information i can advice you the book: " The Space Shuttle - History of the national space transport system" from Jenkins. Its a must have read for evry aviation engineering student.
> 
> Your argument is quite laughable if you mix launching costs with building costs.




Show me one instance that Space Shuttle has lifted itself into space without help.

LOL, The Concord has been such a huge success.  Even at USD 3000/ passenger, that would practically kill the whole industry as it is right now. 

So much text and yet no argument. Poor guy.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Show me one instance that Space Shuttle has lifted itself into space without help.
> 
> LOL, The Concord has been such a huge success.  Even at USD 3000/ passenger, that would practically kill the whole industry as it is right now.
> 
> So much text and yet no argument. Poor guy.




As i said Option two was never used simply because the fleet was not big enough.

Concorde was a huge sucess for British Airways. BA had 6 Concorde in service and this 6 Concorde generated 40% of the entire BA profit for 25 years. BA had a fleet of 150 airplanes...and 6 airplanes made 40% of the profits. Thats quite sucessful. Concorde offered a unique experience. A level above 1st class. That made her so profitable. I was able to fly Concorde as a small boy with my parents. London - New York on G-BOAC. Nobody says that SST and SSTO are an option for evryone. As Airtravel started the tickets were so expensive that only very rich people could afford them. Thats normal for any new technology. SST are introduced and work as elite way to travel while the masses chose the normal airplane. As time goes by the new SSTO becomes the new elite way and SST the normal way to travel.

So many corporations work on new concepts. Airbus, Boeing, Space X, Sierra Nevada, Lockheed Martin...

As time and development moves on, the new technologies become the standard. The long time goal are bases / cities on the moon, mars, titan, ganymede and callisto and later on even interstellar. You want build railways to this destinations as well? 

I want progress and i don´t want develop backwards. Trains can be used for short distance


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> As i said Option two was never used simply because the fleet was not big enough.
> 
> Concorde was a huge sucess for British Airways. BA had 6 Concorde in service and this 6 Concorde generated 40% of the entire BA profit for 25 years. BA had a fleet of 150 airplanes...and 6 airplanes made 40% of the profits. Thats quite sucessful. Concorde offered a unique experience. A level above 1st class. That made her so profitable. I was able to fly Concorde as a small boy with my parents. London - New York on G-BOAC. Nobody says that SST and SSTO are an option for evryone. As Airtravel started the tickets were so expensive that only very rich people could afford them. Thats normal for any new technology. SST are introduced and work as elite way to travel while the masses chose the normal airplane. As time goes by the new SSTO becomes the new elite way and SST the normal way to travel.
> 
> So many corporations work on new concepts. Airbus, Boeing, Space X, Sierra Nevada, Lockheed Martin...
> 
> As time and development moves on, the new technologies become the standard. The long time goal are bases / cities on the moon, mars, titan, ganymede and callisto and later on even interstellar. You want build railways to this destinations as well?
> 
> I want progress and i don´t want develop backwards. Trains can be used for short distance



Why did the fleet never got big enough?

You are even bad at economics. If the Concord was so great, why didn't they generate 100% of the profit? Think about it!

So, the rest who could not afford to travel with SST and SSTO should either stay at home or walk or what? Lufthansa will suddenly have to earn the same or more with only first class pasengers. 

You don't even see your stupidity in argument to counter the necessity of train travel now and in the near future.

FYI, you are simply not even part of that elite, since your income is not and won't be high enough to fly the current 1st class from Munich to New York or Shanghai, forget about Concord tickets. With high certainty, I will see you sitting with other "poor" people in the train to make your travel. 

FRA – NYC (1st class) between € 5k and 5.5k
FRA – SHA (1st class) € 11.5k

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Why did the fleet never got big enough?
> 
> You are even bad at economics. If the Concord was so great, why didn't they generate 100% of the profit? Think about it!
> 
> So, the rest who could not afford to travel with SST and SSTO should either stay at home or walk or what? Lufthansa will suddenly have to earn the same or more with only first class pasengers.
> 
> You don't even see your stupidity in argument to counter the necessity of train travel now and in the near future.
> 
> FYI, you are simply not even part of that elite, since your income is not and won't be high enough to fly the current 1st class from Munich to New York or Shanghai, forget about Concord tickets. With high certainty, I will see you sitting with other "poor" people in the train to make your travel.
> 
> FRA – NYC (1st class) between € 5k and 5.5k
> FRA – SHA (1st class) € 11.5k




The fleet never got big enough because USA sabotaged the Concorde and limited it to only certain airports. It made her a white elephant. Some high guys in the US government could not swallow that Concorde was not an american product. The Boeing SST ended as small elite branch. The mass market was blocked.

As for the rest of your nonsense. Why should Lufthansa stop its "cattle transports" while offering also a supreme product?

As for the rest of your nonsense. In a few days i start my one week cruise with my girl on the maiden voyage on the costa Diadema. We have 1st class and i paid 7.200,- €. My income obviously allows me to travel above the "cattle standard".


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## Keel

Indians have the access to foreign technologies. Their more powerful rocket engines are given immense help from the Russians. Also India would not have reached the Mars orbit without the assistance from NASA.

European space agency, Japan and S Korea etc also have these advantages over us.

We are very much a lone soul in space but solidly progressing on our own path - building a space industry literally most by ourselves, confidently.

What a proud moment to cheer for

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> The fleet never got big enough because USA sabotaged the Concorde and limited it to only certain airports. It made her a white elephant. Some high guys in the US government could not swallow that Concorde was not an american product. The Boeing SST ended as small elite branch. The mass market was blocked.
> 
> As for the rest of your nonsense. Why should Lufthansa stop its "cattle transports" while offering also a supreme product?
> 
> As for the rest of your nonsense. In a few days i start my one week cruise with my girl on the maiden voyage on the costa Diadema. We have 1st class and i paid 7.200,- €. My income obviously allows me to travel above the "cattle standard".



Didn't you say that the US is our super duper great friend with whom we will go from victory to victory? Now you tell me they sabotaged the Concord and rendered it into a white elephant. 

Didn't you say that the future SST and SSTO will be serving the elite only because they will be extremly expensive that even third class will be out of reach for the majority? Flying to Mallorca for average Joe will be passé?

LOL at the braggar, € 7.200 for 2 person and you already consider that to be premium? Well, you just tell us that you come from a very, very humble background and think that € 7.200 on a cruise ship is the hottest shice. 

Hey, flying 1st class with your girlfriend to NY would already cost more than € 10k and that's without hotel and catering. 1 week Waldorf Astoria Queen-size bed for 2 adds another € 2.5K. Transport, food, entertainment are of course extra.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Keel said:


> Indians have the access to foreign technologies. Their more powerful rocket engines are given immense help from the Russians. Also India would not have reached the Mars orbit without the assistance from NASA.
> 
> *European space agency, Japan and S Korea etc also have these advantages over us.*
> 
> We are very much a lone soul in space but solidly progressing on our own path - building a space industry literally most by ourselves, confidently.
> 
> What a proud moment to cheer for



Yet they still don't have their own manned mission, so this only shows so much control that the US has over these lackey countries, and also to show how difficult is to build up its own ecosystem for the national space program.

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## Keel

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yet they still don't have their own manned mission, so this only shows so much control the US has over these lackey countries, and how hard is to build up its own ecosystem for the national space program.



I have been trying not to be over-exuberant over this Tiger Sir.
We are still decades behind the big boys.
Our roads are still much tougher and yet we have our own footprints in space and soon on the Lunar surface. 

Thank you

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## Srinivas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yet they still don't have their own manned mission, so this only shows so much control that the US has over these lackey countries, and also to show how difficult is to build up its own ecosystem for the national space program.


 Say Hello to the Russian scientists working on Chinese Space program.

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## Keel

Srinivas said:


> Say Hello to the Russian scientists working on Chinese Space program.



Probably on initial stages but surely less, a lot less access to foreign techs than other emerging countries

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## ChineseTiger1986

Srinivas said:


> Say Hello to the Russian scientists working on Chinese Space program.



China's space program is indigenous.

Our space program was developed after the Sino-Soviet split, so we have received zero assistance from the Soviet Union.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Keel said:


> Probably on initial stages but surely less, a lot less access to foreign techs than other emerging countries



China's space program is totally different from Russia's, because the founder father of our space program was a graduate from the US. That's why China's space program does bear some similarity with that of the US.

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## Srinivas

Keel said:


> Probably on initial stages but surely less, a lot less access to foreign techs than other emerging countries



Fact is China buys the technologies through back end channels!!

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## jkroo

Keel said:


> Probably on initial stages but surely less, a lot less access to foreign techs than other emerging countries





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's space program is indigenous.
> 
> Our space program was developed after the Sino-Soviet split, so we have received zero assistance from the Soviet Union.


No need to talk about these things, bros. Our maned space program proved enough.
No need talk to losers with humble words.

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## sweetgrape

Sorry, Can I say: Holly sh!t!!!!!!!!!



Srinivas said:


> Say Hello to the Russian scientists working on Chinese Space program.


Hehe, so? but we pay them for their hard working with money, not only Russian scientist, if 
American or other country's good scientist can work for China, we also will say hello to them, and pay money for it, including indian scientist, if you have.

Oops, many indian good scientist work for NASA, they don't like China, don't want choose China, and USA also are very happy to say hello to Indian scientist, you must very proud for it.




Srinivas said:


> Fact is China buys the technologies through back end channels!!


So?
I know you want to say all or most of chinese achievement on space should credit to foreigner, not Chinese, it can make you feel good, I know, keep it, hehe!

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## Keel

Srinivas said:


> Fact is China buys the technologies through back end channels!!



I am expecting this to happen from unproven accusations

We have good and enough talents to advance our space and science technologies but of course we should be a lot better if all our scientists overseas can return to serve the Country

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## Srinivas

Keel said:


> I am expecting this to happen from unproven accusations
> 
> We have good and enough talents to advance our space and science technologies but of course we should be a lot better if all our scientists overseas can return to serve the Country



2014 article :
Russia, China Sign Space Exploration Agreement | Business | The Moscow Times


1996 article:
news.sciencemag.org/space/1996/12/russia-aid-chinas-crewed-space-effort

*Russia to Aid China's Crewed Space Effort*

China may soon be the third country with a crewed space program. Industry experts believe that the Chinese--thanks to new plans to collaborate with cash-strapped Russian space scientists--will be able to send their first cosmonauts into space by the turn of the century.

According to recent reports in the Russian news media, the Chinese are seeking help from the Russian Space Agency (RKA) to kick-start a national crewed space-flight program. Last October, eight to 10 Chinese cosmonauts arrived at Star City, Russia's space-training center outside Moscow, says Phillip Clark, editor of Jane's Space Directory, an annual report on the industry. "Officially, nothing was announced," he says. However, Clark says, it appears that two cosmonauts are training for an 8-day Soyuz mission to the space station Mir in 1998, while the rest are getting training geared toward China's own program.

The Russia connection is China's latest attempt to revive its struggling 15-year-old crewed program, says John Pike, space policy director at the Federation of American Scientists. China's heavy-duty "Long March" rockets have blown up several times, and the Chinese have been tight-lipped "in accounting for what went wrong," Pike says. However, industry experts predict that Chinese technical advances--coupled with Russian expertise--will help to rapidly clear up the Long March's service record, enabling the first crewed flights around the year 2000.

Cash seems to be the main force driving the Russian participation. "When the Chinese fly to Mir, they will pay for the privilege," says Clark. RKA Director-General Yuri Koptev told the Russian news service Novosti that the two countries plan to ink contracts early next year for a joint Mir mission.

news.sciencemag.org/space/1996/12/russia-aid-chinas-crewed-space-effort

*
*

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## ChineseTiger1986

Srinivas said:


> 2014 article :
> Russia, China Sign Space Exploration Agreement | Business | The Moscow Times
> 
> 
> 1996 article:
> news.sciencemag.org/space/1996/12/russia-aid-chinas-crewed-space-effort
> 
> *Russia to Aid China's Crewed Space Effort*
> 
> China may soon be the third country with a crewed space program. Industry experts believe that the Chinese--thanks to new plans to collaborate with cash-strapped Russian space scientists--will be able to send their first cosmonauts into space by the turn of the century.
> 
> According to recent reports in the Russian news media, the Chinese are seeking help from the Russian Space Agency (RKA) to kick-start a national crewed space-flight program. Last October, eight to 10 Chinese cosmonauts arrived at Star City, Russia's space-training center outside Moscow, says Phillip Clark, editor of Jane's Space Directory, an annual report on the industry. "Officially, nothing was announced," he says. However, Clark says, it appears that two cosmonauts are training for an 8-day Soyuz mission to the space station Mir in 1998, while the rest are getting training geared toward China's own program.
> 
> The Russia connection is China's latest attempt to revive its struggling 15-year-old crewed program, says John Pike, space policy director at the Federation of American Scientists. China's heavy-duty "Long March" rockets have blown up several times, and the Chinese have been tight-lipped "in accounting for what went wrong," Pike says. However, industry experts predict that Chinese technical advances--coupled with Russian expertise--will help to rapidly clear up the Long March's service record, enabling the first crewed flights around the year 2000.
> 
> Cash seems to be the main force driving the Russian participation. "When the Chinese fly to Mir, they will pay for the privilege," says Clark. RKA Director-General Yuri Koptev told the Russian news service Novosti that the two countries plan to ink contracts early next year for a joint Mir mission.
> 
> news.sciencemag.org/space/1996/12/russia-aid-chinas-crewed-space-effort



Just because India can't develop anything by its own, but it doesn't mean that China cannot do that either.

Just think about it, why India has founded its nation 2 years earlier, but right now PRC's GDP is 5 times larger?

Meanwhile we got by far more western embargo on the sensitive technologies.

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## jkroo

Everyday, I see many people talk about China copy/buy other country's technology and have nothing advance of technology except cheap products.

I see many people post negative threads to prove that how China is unsuccessful and they are winner.

I see many people argue things with delusions and wishes to prove they are better one except the facts. What you get even you win the arguments?

What a loser logic! And we can see the logic that you can't get in touch with foreign technology and we can buy everything to beat you. What a fnck logic!

Oh yeah, one thing sb. should know is that low person accept cheap products and it proved much things.

Don't compare China with loser because we need to develop our country everyday what is not talking can deal it with..
I am a little afraid of arguing with losers will harm my logic

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## Srinivas

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> *Just because India can't develop anything by its own*, but it doesn't mean that China cannot do that either.
> 
> Just think about it, why India has founded its nation 2 years earlier, but right now PRC's GDP is 5 times larger?
> 
> Meanwhile we got by far more western embargo on the sensitive technologies.




That is your assumption, I have not said that.

Embargo only works if the nation is poor, money can smuggle anything !!


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## Keel

Srinivas said:


> 2014 article :
> Russia, China Sign Space Exploration Agreement | Business | The Moscow Times
> 
> 
> 1996 article:
> news.sciencemag.org/space/1996/12/russia-aid-chinas-crewed-space-effort



How often do these happen?
One is even a 2014 news and I wonder if that co-op has started materially. 

Have I denied any assistance from outside?
If we can gain access like you people do we are landing on Mars now.

Just count the achievements we have had so far:
- Space walk and returned home
- Beidou
- Manned and unmanned space docking and home-return
- Tiangong Space Lab 
- " Rabbit" lunar lander
- shooting down a satellite in space
- more successful rockets by launch counts

By all means let the Russians claim their signature on the above endeavours please apart from their offer of a space suit which was never worn by our Taikonaut. Thank you

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## Srinivas

Keel said:


> How often do these happen?
> One is even a 2014 news and I wonder if that co-op has started materialy.
> 
> Have I denied any assistance from outside?
> *If we can gain access like you people do we are landing on Mars now*.







> Just count the achievements we have had so far:
> - Man space walk and returned home
> - Beidou
> - Manned and unmanned docking and home-return
> - Tiangong Space Lab
> - " Rabbit" lunar lander
> - shooting down a satellite in space
> - more successful rockets by launch counts
> 
> By all means let the Russians claim their signature on the above endeavour please apart from their offer of a space suit which was never worn by our Taikonaut. Thank you



Impressive , India is not far behind !!

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## sweetgrape

Srinivas said:


> That is your assumption, I have not said that.
> 
> Embargo only works if the nation is poor, money can smuggle anything !!


A rich buy a BMW car, a poor say: If I have that money, I also can buy BMW, the poor guy forget that, more than 20 years ago, that "rich" even poorer than him.

Excuse is excuse, in the world, so many "rich" give the poor huge chance to be rich, but he can't, not chance problem, but that poor have "poor" idea, and always make excuse for its poor.

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## RKO

as im worried. ..thread turned into a pissing contest!!!!


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## Keel

RKO said:


> as im worried. ..thread turned into a pissing contest!!!!



Allow me to speak frankly but bluntly, beating India is never on our minds.
Give us the big boys

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## Srinivas

sweetgrape said:


> A rich buy a BMW car, a poor say: If I have that money, I also can buy BMW, the poor guy forget that, more than 20 years ago, that "rich" even poorer than him.
> 
> *Excuse is excuse, in the world, so many "rich" give the poor huge chance to be rich, but he can't, not chance problem, but that poor have "poor" idea, and always make excuse for its poor.*




Is this a Chinese riddle Sweeet Grapee 

India's achievements are also there and the technology gap is not that much between India and China.

India also has Manned space program.

India is also on reforms path and we have confidence that we can do better in Economy, R&D and social welfare in this decade and the decades after that.


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## ashok mourya

4 out 10 scientist of NASA are indians......our competition is always with usa or russia in space not china....

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## Narashima

Keel said:


> Allow me to speak frankly but bluntly, beating India is never on our minds.
> Give us the big boys


ask this guy @RisingShiningSuperpower - he has doubt on modi's leadership, tell him to shut up.


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## ChineseTiger1986

ashok mourya said:


> 4 out 10 scientist of NASA are indians......our competition is always with usa or russia in space not china....



Then stop comparing with us, and it quite annoying to see our section getting polluted and derailed daily by the Indian members.

And go back to your own section please.

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## Keel

Srinivas said:


> Is this a Chinese riddle Sweeet Grapee
> 
> India's achievements are also there and the technology gap is not that much between India and China.
> 
> India also has Manned space program.
> 
> India is also on reforms path and we have confidence that we can do better in Economy, R&D and social welfare in this decade and the decades after that.



do you mind changing the highlighted remarks to 10 to 20 years future tenses?

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Didn't you say that the US is our super duper great friend with whom we will go from victory to victory? Now you tell me they sabotaged the Concord and rendered it into a white elephant.
> 
> Didn't you say that the future SST and SSTO will be serving the elite only because they will be extremly expensive that even third class will be out of reach for the majority? Flying to Mallorca for average Joe will be passé?
> 
> LOL at the braggar, € 7.200 for 2 person and you already consider that to be premium? Well, you just tell us that you come from a very, very humble background and think that € 7.200 on a cruise ship is the hottest shice.
> 
> Hey, flying 1st class with your girlfriend to NY would already cost more than € 10k and that's without hotel and catering. 1 week Waldorf Astoria Queen-size bed for 2 adds another € 2.5K. Transport, food, entertainment are of course extra.




1. Thats not what i said. I said when SST and SSTO are introduced uts the new premium. The older technology gets cheaper. As time goes by, SST would become cheap enough to become avaivable for normal pax. Thats the normal way evry technology goes. 

2. I´m not bragging, i´m just saying. 

3. Flying with my girlfriend to New York 1st class would be 5.000 € since i would get my place for free. When you work for Airbus as engineer and you are needed somewhere you get a place at 1st class, because it is usually the closest to the cockpit. Sometimes you are also placed in the cockpit. That happenes mostly when a new aircraft enters service and is in its 1st guarantee week. You can plan your schedule for that. 

4. Where did i say i come from a humble background? Why do you think i can afford this? I can tell you, because each month i safe 800,- € - 1000 €. I have virtually no living costs because the apartment i live in is owned from my father. My mother is "Innenrevisor" at a VR-Bank, my father works as engineer at Siemens now. Thats not exactly a "humble background". How you think he could afford to buy 3 tickets on Concorde from London to New York? 

I´m not elite, but also not "humble" in any way.

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## RKO

Keel said:


> Allow me to speak frankly but bluntly, beating India is never on our minds.
> Give us the big boys


I Know...

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## ChineseTiger1986

Narashima said:


> LOL have you read the article Mr. citizen of superpowa, it's said by russian researchers not by indians.



Do we give a crap about the opinion of some "Russian researcher"?

We do follow our own footprint, no need to follow the opinion of the foreigners.

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## Srinivas

sweetgrape said:


> Just a analogy, not much others.
> 
> I don't want discuss about how much gap between China and India, I don't care.
> 
> But from your comment, I know what you want to explain, your purpose of comments is the problem.
> 
> You mock and belittle China Space, want emphasize foreign help to China Space achievement. You talk about your indian space program, you think you get less foreign help than China in your space program? just delude yourself, you are not that good, but I hope you think you are that good.
> 
> BTW, in fact, I hope in india, such you kind indian is more.




You should first check the comment from Chinese how they are mocking India .... Sweet grape !!

I only responded and I have not mocked for sure


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## deepak.chauhan2312

jkroo said:


> There is no competition in space exploration in our mind. We do it for ourself and have our own goal. We do it independently. Our so called competitor is our exploration goal not other countries. We explore space with planned paces and dont do it in a hurry for compete issues. We have an integrated industry for every system.
> Russia is a great country that had done great achievement in space exploration. Who can look down upon Russia? India? What a joke!




lets not be rivals in everything lets be partners in something.

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## ashok mourya

hahaha......no fighting ..india china soon going to coperate on space...it was decided during chinese presidents visit to india..we may be explore further with coperation......


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## sweetgrape

Srinivas said:


> You should first check the comment from Chinese how they are mocking India Sweet grape !!
> 
> I only responded and I have not mocked for sure


Ok, your right, I also respond to your comments too, hehe!





RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> Did you know that 38 per cent of doctors in US are Indians?
> 
> Did you know that 36 per cent of NASA scientists are Indians?
> 
> Did you know that 34 per cent of Microsoft employees are Indians?
> 
> Did you know that 36 per cent of Twitter employees are Indians?
> 
> Did you know that 31 per cent of Facebook employees are Indians?
> 
> Did you know that Indians invented the microchip over 3000 years ago?
> 
> Did you know that Germans came from India?
> 
> Did you know ancient Indians were astronauts as recorded in the Mahabharata and Ramayana?
> 
> India will overtake China because India is a tortoise and slow and steady wins the race.
> 
> India will surpass China because of the democratic dividend.
> 
> India will surpass China because of the demographic dividend.
> 
> India will surpass China because IITs are in the top 10 universities in the world.
> 
> India will surpass China because Indians invented zero.
> 
> India will surpass China because India has inclusive growth.
> 
> India will surpass China because Indians speak English.
> 
> India will surpass China because India grows at night.
> 
> India will surpass China because esteemed Abdul Kalam predicted it.
> 
> India will surpass China because of cricket.
> 
> India will surpass China because of Bollywood.
> 
> India will surpass China because India invented Yoga.
> 
> India will surpass China because of Jugaad.
> 
> India will surpass China because Indian women are treated as goddesses.
> 
> India will surpass China because Indians are Aryans.
> 
> India will surpass China because India will be a superpower by 2020.
> 
> India will surpass because Modi-ji has vision.
> 
> Truth alone will prevail.
> 
> You will see, India will definitely catch up and overtake China under Modi-ji!
> 
> Jai Hind!


Excuse me, are you American indian?

BTW, from you comment, I find, now, indian control USA, and you know USA is stronger than China, so, Indian is stronger than Chinese indirectly. And, indian "will" surpass China, everyday, I think Chinese should talk to hiself, India "will" surpass China.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ashok mourya said:


> hahaha......no fighting ..india china soon going to coperate on space...it was decided during chinese presidents visit to india..we may be explore further with coperation......



We don't need the cooperation of India, you can go to cooperate with the US and Russia since you are on their league.

All we need is that the Indian members to leave us alone!

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## ashok mourya

ok bye bye chinese bro ...hope to see u in space soon.....gl


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## Aepsilons

MarkusS said:


> 1. Thats not what i said. I said when SST and SSTO are introduced uts the new premium. The older technology gets cheaper. As time goes by, SST would become cheap enough to become avaivable for normal pax. Thats the normal way evry technology goes.
> 
> 2. I´m not bragging, i´m just saying.
> 
> 3. Flying with my girlfriend to New York 1st class would be 5.000 € since i would get my place for free. When you work for Airbus as engineer and you are needed somewhere you get a place at 1st class, because it is usually the closest to the cockpit. Sometimes you are also placed in the cockpit. That happenes mostly when a new aircraft enters service and is in its 1st guarantee week. You can plan your schedule for that.
> 
> 4. Where did i say i come from a humble background? Why do you think i can afford this? I can tell you, because each month i safe 800,- € - 1000 €. I have virtually no living costs because the apartment i live in is owned from my father. My mother is "Innenrevisor" at a VR-Bank, my father works as engineer at Siemens now. Thats not exactly a "humble background". How you think he could afford to buy 3 tickets on Concorde from London to New York?
> 
> I´m not elite, but also not "humble" in any way.




lol. why waste that much money on a seat, buddy. Rather wouldn't you want to spend that money on your gf and get her a Cartier bangle ? Get it engraved, too. The ladies always love that...trust me, i know.

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> 1. Thats not what i said. I said when SST and SSTO are introduced uts the new premium. The older technology gets cheaper. As time goes by, SST would become cheap enough to become avaivable for normal pax. Thats the normal way evry technology goes.
> 
> 2. I´m not bragging, i´m just saying.
> 
> 3. Flying with my girlfriend to New York 1st class would be 5.000 € since i would get my place for free. When you work for Airbus as engineer and you are needed somewhere you get a place at 1st class, because it is usually the closest to the cockpit. Sometimes you are also placed in the cockpit. That happenes mostly when a new aircraft enters service and is in its 1st guarantee week. You can plan your schedule for that.
> 
> 4. Where did i say i come from a humble background? Why do you think i can afford this? I can tell you, because each month i safe 800,- € - 1000 €. I have virtually no living costs because the apartment i live in is owned from my father. My mother is "Innenrevisor" at a VR-Bank, my father works as engineer at Siemens now. Thats not exactly a "humble background". How you think he could afford to buy 3 tickets on Concorde from London to New York?
> 
> I´m not elite, but also not "humble" in any way.



SST and SSTO will not be available untile earliest by 2050 and till then oil will be so expensive that even flying conventional will be considered expensive for well to do people, how will the masses afford to fly at all? I bet oil will already so expensive by 2030 (20 years before the first SST plane lifts off ground) that mass tourism will be history by then (see chart). So, your calculation just doens't make sense.

Of course you are bragging. I don't see many telling how much they spend on vacation. and considering € 7.7k to be something worth mentioning tells a lot about you.

You see, Hamburg is the main location of Airbus in Germany. Righ in my neighbourhood, there are many engineers who work for Airbus and many of them are my friends, since my neighbourhood is just at the other side of the river from Airbus. In order to fly for free on Airbus, you have either to be on a waiting list or it is part of your assignment. The first class is normally reserved for the top management for which you are still too young. The chance that you and your GF end up in the same plane is minimal to impossible if your GF is also working. So, don't tell me lies. 

On top of this, the absolute majority of people don't work for Airbus and airlines need paying passengers to make profit.

Of couse you are not elite, your posts have revealed that already.

You see, I know sales assistants working at a posh store with a tiny flat and little furnitures running around with a Kelly bag for € 20k a piece. Buying three Cocorde tickets means nothing.

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## tranquilium

Erm, I am not aware there is a competition going on.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> SST and SSTO will not be available untile earliest by 2050 and till then oil will be so expensive that even flying conventional will be considered expensive for well to do people, how will the masses afford to fly at all? I bet oil will already so expensive by 2030 (20 years before the first SST plane lifts off ground) that mass tourism will be history by then (see chart). So, your calculation just doens't make sense.
> 
> Of course you are bragging. I don't see many telling how much they spend on vacation. and considering € 7.7k to be something worth mentioning tells a lot about you.
> 
> You see, Hamburg is the main location of Airbus in Germany. Righ in my neighbourhood, there are many engineers who work for Airbus and many of them are my friends, since my neighbourhood is just at the other side of the river from Airbus. In order to fly for free on Airbus, you have either to be on a waiting list or it is part of your assignment. The first class is normally reserved for the top management for which you are still too young. The chance that you and your GF end up in the same plane is minimal to impossible if your GF is also working. So, don't tell me lies.
> 
> On top of this, the absolute majority of people don't work for Airbus and airlines need paying passengers to make profit.
> 
> Of couse you are not elite, your posts have revealed that already.
> 
> You see, I know sales assistants working at a posh store with a tiny flat and little furnitures running around with a Kelly bag for € 20k a piece. Buying three Cocorde tickets means nothing.



managers are not in a guarantee group. You reveal again that you talk shit.  Also i´m relative sure you know nobody who works at Airbus. Your "oil statement" reveals that as well. In the next 10 years most airlines will switch to bio fuel, so whats your matter?

I think you have problms in english so let me explain you in german:

Hör mal Schnuffi, es geht nicht um erste Klasse Sitze im normalen Linienverkehr oder Repräsentationsflüge. Es geht um die Übergabe eines neuen Flugzeugs und die technische Abnahme. In der ersten Woche sind bei fast allen Flügen mehrere Mitarbeiter von Airbus anwesend. Dabei werden Systeme überwacht und Funktionen kontrolliert. Dabei wirst du fast immer in der ersten Klasse, oft auch im Cockpit platziert. Sinn dabei sind kurze Laufwege. Ich glaube ich debattiere hier mit einem Hilfschüler.


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## Aepsilons

jkroo said:


> Hell, who are you? Are you Adam Sandller?



LOL.


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## RisingShiningSuperpower

jkroo said:


> Hell, who are you? Are you Adam Sandller?



I'm a booster of the Great Bharat and an admirer of Modi, at least to the many Indian members who have under-developed sarcasm detectors.

Seriously now, I mostly quote what the Indians boasted about themselves only a few years back. All the false statistics and hare-brained justifications I listed are culled from Indian sources.

Thankfully, all the "India rising", "India shining", and "India will be a superpower" bullshit have died down. Indians have finally woken up to reality in the last couple of years, ever since their economy went off the rails.

It's fun to confront the Indians with their own foolish words and fantastical predictions. I just love rubbing salt into the wound. You can't say they don't deserve it.

By the way, do you remember this?

India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - Economic Times

And this?

Manmohan keen on making Mumbai a Shanghai - Financial Express

I sure miss the heady old days when the Indians felt they could accomplish anything... The problem with dreaming is that you eventually have to wake up and put in the work.

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## Narashima

RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> I'm a booster of the Great Bharat and an admirer of Modi, at least to the many Indian members who have under-developed sarcasm detectors.
> Seriously now, I mostly quote what the Indians boasted about themselves only a few years back. All the fake statistics and hare-brained justifications I mentioned are culled from Indian sources.
> Thankfully, all the "India rising", "India shining", and "India will be a superpower" bullshit have died down. Indians have finally woken up to reality in the last couple of years, ever since their economy went off the rails.
> It's fun to confront the Indians with their own foolish words and fantastical predications. I just love rubbing salt into the wound. Just don't tell me they don't deserve it.
> Oh yeah, do you remember this?
> India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - Economic Times
> I sure miss the heady old days when the Indians felt they could accomplish anything...


so you are a troll?


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## ChineseTiger1986

RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> I'm a booster of the Great Bharat and an admirer of Modi, at least to the many Indian members who have under-developed sarcasm detectors.
> 
> Seriously now, I mostly quote what the Indians boasted about themselves only a few years back. All the fake statistics and hare-brained justifications I mentioned are culled from Indian sources.
> 
> Thankfully, all the "India rising", "India shining", and "India will be a superpower" bullshit have died down. Indians have finally woken up to reality in the last couple of years, ever since their economy went off the rails.
> 
> It's fun to confront the Indians with their own foolish words and fantastical predications. I just love rubbing salt into the wound. Just don't tell me they don't deserve it.
> 
> Oh yeah, do you remember this?
> 
> India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - Economic Times
> 
> I sure miss the heady old days when the Indians felt they could accomplish anything...



Bro, what is your ethnicity?


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## Aepsilons

RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> A close second was, "may he mustard my hole with a genie, babe."



People are so creative to make a video translation like that, i have to admit! anyways, definitely made me smile this sunday afternoon.

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## RisingShiningSuperpower

Narashima said:


> so you are a troll?



Ah no. I'm an admirer of Modi-ji, who will make India into a superpower by 2020!



Nihonjin1051 said:


> People are so creative to make a video translation like that, i have to admit! anyways, definitely made me smile this sunday afternoon.



Well, glad you enjoyed it, bro!



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Bro, what is your ethnicity?



I'm an honorary Indian.

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> managers are not in a guarantee group. You reveal again that you talk shit.  Also i´m relative sure you know nobody who works at Airbus. Your "oil statement" reveals that as well. In the next 10 years most airlines will switch to bio fuel, so whats your matter?
> 
> I think you have problms in english so let me explain you in german:
> 
> Hör mal Schnuffi, es geht nicht um erste Klasse Sitze im normalen Linienverkehr oder Repräsentationsflüge. Es geht um die Übergabe eines neuen Flugzeugs und die technische Abnahme. In der ersten Woche sind bei fast allen Flügen mehrere Mitarbeiter von Airbus anwesend. Dabei werden Systeme überwacht und Funktionen kontrolliert. Dabei wirst du fast immer in der ersten Klasse, oft auch im Cockpit platziert. Sinn dabei sind kurze Laufwege. Ich glaube ich debattiere hier mit einem Hilfschüler.



Prove that I don't know anyone who works at Airbus. I even rented out one of my flat to an Airbus employee because a friennd of mine was looking for a flat for his colleague. 

I think your English is not up to par, so you have to resort to German.

I know about the delivery of airplanes and it's basic procedures, it's not the same as flying regular arilines with the same service. It's like sitting in a five star hotel a few weeks before the grand opening. And under normal circumstances, you just fly to the destination of delivery and take the next plane back. Hardly a holiday with your GF.

Stop telling fairy stories and hide them behind German hoping nobody will know this.


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## osama zafar

id rather fly but thanks

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Prove that I don't know anyone who works at Airbus. I even rented out one of my flat to an Airbus employee because a friennd of mine was looking for a flat for his colleague.
> 
> I think your English is not up to par, so you have to resort to German.
> 
> I know about the delivery of airplanes and it's basic procedures, it's not the same as flying regular arilines with the same service. It's like sitting in a five star hotel a few weeks before the grand opening. And under normal circumstances, you just fly to the destination of delivery and take the next plane back. Hardly a holiday with your GF.
> 
> Stop telling fairy stories and hide them behind German hoping nobody will know this.



Did i say i would get the same service? No, i´m just placed at a seat there. You get no special service. All i´m saying is that with smart planning you can get one flight for free and manage your holiday that way.


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## jkroo

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Bro, what is your ethnicity?


Bro, I am also trying to figure it out. Who do you think the brilliant person is in the following photos.

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## Aepsilons

@jkroo , you just officially burned my eyes with the last picture.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> Did i say i would get the same service? No, i´m just placed at a seat there. You get no special service. All i´m saying is that with smart planning you can get one flight for free and manage your holiday that way.



Who cars about you. This topic is about railways and the affordability to travel in the not too distant futures. All you talk is either about you (who the f* cares) or about technologies that may be realised in 2050 or later. Fact is, oil will be too expensive to be used as fuel in the next two decades.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Who cars about you. This topic is about railways and the affordability to travel in the not too distant futures. All you talk is either about you (who the f* cares) or about technologies that may be realised in 2050 or later. Fact is, oil will be too expensive to be used as fuel in the next two decades.




Thats why we work on bio fuel.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> Thats why we work on bio fuel.



Bio fuel has already failed miserably. Where is the bio fuel for car that was propagated in all new just two or three years ago?


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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Bio fuel has already failed miserably. Where is the bio fuel for car that was propagated in all new just two or three years ago?




You mean E10 or E5? Both is the standard fuel for cars in germany right now.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> You mean E10 or E5? Both is the standard fuel for cars in germany right now.



And it's not popular despite the lower price and it will leave our children a world with no rain forest and more hungry people. But I think, for your narrow minded brain, you won't even see the implactions that will hit us in Europe.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> And it's not popular despite the lower price and it will leave our children a world with no rain forest and more hungry people. But I think, for your narrow minded brain, you won't even see the implactions that will hit us in Europe.



why you always stick to personal insults comrade? Not evrything is perfect. Whats good at one side is bad at the other. Thats what we must work on, to find solutions to make things better.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> why you always stick to personal insults comrade? Not evrything is perfect. Whats good at one side is bad at the other. Thats what we must work on, to find solutions to make things better.



Not insulting, just exposing your many lies and constant duplicity. You lied from the beginning and get obnoxiously contradictory from then on.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Not insulting, just exposing your many lies and constant duplicity. You lied from the beginning and get obnoxiously contradictory from then on.



i never lied. I stand behind bio fuel. We use it experiemental and try to improve. It is notbthe only solution but can be part of a solution and a mix.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> i never lied. I stand behind bio fuel. We use it experiemental and try to improve. It is notbthe only solution but can be part of a solution and a mix.



Of course, just go to my first post in this thread and from there on, you spewed false information and half truths, drailing the whole thread and making base remarks on the poors and now you cry for clemency? 

Bioful has been problematic not only from the technical perspective, but above all from ethical perspective. Food that can feed millions of hungry people are used for driving. Vast areas of rain forest are destroyed to plant crops for bio fuel.

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## Atri Ganguly

God and Science is oxymoron. Shut up all the God talks when discussing science. If I respect the Chinese for one thing then it's that they don't believe in non-existent bullshit.


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## Keel

Atri Ganguly said:


> They are, and they are because of USA's idiocy , more precisely Nixon's dick move to support Pakistan and attack India during 1971 Indo-Pak war. Had they not done it we wouldn't have needed the Soviet naval assistance to counter USA's navy which marked the start of the friendship between India-Russia.



So basically a bi-partisan sentiment among you guys over who is your ally - Russia vs USA
And by your perception, the ratio is Russia - 50%, USA 40%, Rest 10% neutral?


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## RisingShiningSuperpower

RKO said:


> not possible!!!



Everything is possible. India has the brainpower and the talent to achieve anything. Only leadership was lacking before. But with Modi-ji's strong and visionary leadership, the impossible is now possible.

India will quickly surpass China, Russia, and the United States to become a superpower by 2020!

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## RKO

RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> I'm a booster of the Great Bharat and an admirer of Modi, at least to the many Indian members who have under-developed sarcasm detectors.
> 
> Seriously now, I mostly quote what the Indians boasted about themselves only a few years back. All the false statistics and hare-brained justifications I listed are culled from Indian sources.
> 
> Thankfully, all the "India rising", "India shining", and "India will be a superpower" bullshit have died down. Indians have finally woken up to reality in the last couple of years, ever since their economy went off the rails.
> 
> It's fun to confront the Indians with their own foolish words and fantastical predictions. I just love rubbing salt into the wound. You can't say they don't deserve it.
> 
> By the way, do you remember this?
> 
> India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - Economic Times
> 
> And this?
> 
> Manmohan keen on making Mumbai a Shanghai - Financial Express
> 
> I sure miss the heady old days when the Indians felt they could accomplish anything... The problem with dreaming is that you eventually have to wake up and put in the work.



what you said is somehow true... bt you turned this to a troll thread!!! Evil!!!!


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## Atri Ganguly

Keel said:


> So basically a bi-partisan sentiment among you guys over who is your ally - Russia vs USA
> And by your perception, the ratio is Russia - 50%, USA 40%, Rest 10% neutral?


Nope. That's not what I said. I am just saying that USA made a stupid move back then to support Pakistan which sealed the fate of India-USA strategic relations. Trust is earned and Russia in '71 and Israel in '99 actually helped us during war when we needed it and earned that trust. USA is still not trusted by most Indian people and govt. in strategic issues and I doubt they ever will be anymore.

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## OrionHunter

jkroo said:


> There is no competition in space exploration in our mind.
> India? What a joke!


China? Failed miserably to reach Mars! What a joke!

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## RKO

AgentOrange said:


> I like this guy.


@RisingShiningSuperpower 
so do I!!!! Lol bt that is too much!!!


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## Keel

OrionHunter said:


> China? Failed miserably to reach Mars! What a joke!



You havent check the details
The failure was solely due to the Russian rocket which we was piggybagged on
It is not a failure on our part and never a joke

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## Atri Ganguly

syedali73 said:


> Mangey tangey par guazara karney waaley ab China ki barabri kareingey. Subhan Allah.


Please a FAILED STATE do not deserve to talk about the 2nd and 3rd largest economies . Yes , we can talk about competition but not you. Thanks .

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## cirr

Keel said:


> You havent check the details
> The failure was solely due to the Russian rocket which we was piggybagged on
> It is not a failure on our part and never a joke



You are assuming that our Indian friends want to know the truth。

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## Atri Ganguly

Keel said:


> You havent check the details
> The failure was solely due to the Russian rocket which we was piggybagged on
> It is not a failure on our part and never a joke


Yes totally possible. Maybe your Space research should get ISRO to deliver payloads , as we have been delivering payloads for others since 1999 and not a single one has failed.


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## RKO

RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> Wait a minute. How was I trolling?
> 
> I was simply paraphrasing and quoting what Indians said about themselves from a few years back. All the statistics, all the justifications (i.e. demographic dividend, democratic dividend, hare vs tortoise, etc.), and all the predictions (i.e. superpower by 2020) were made by Indians themselves. There is almost nothing that I have said that had not been first said by Indians themselves.
> 
> Why so touchy? When did the Indians so dramatically change their mind about India's future?
> 
> There is no question that Modi-ji is a strong leader, and India is on track to become a superpower by 2020!


lol....very true!!!! ok u r not trolling. ..im with u....India will be super duper power by 2020... or by 2014 as kalam said !! dnt u know MMS already turned Mumbai into Shanghai...bt its a secret. ..dnt tell anyone!!!

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## Atri Ganguly

cirr said:


> You are assuming that our Indian friends want to know the truth。


Not every Indians are same and whatever he said about Russian rocket fault could be true. Don't generalize Indians . Thanks.


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## ashok mourya

there is goddess or devi in hinduism....we pray them.....no other religion in the earth today have godeses ..proud to be part ofsuch a religion.....

i think india is already a super power.....just search top 10 powerful countries......but we dont have time interfere in other countries.....we r moving forward..removing our own problems.......our scientists engineers r capable of everything.....long live india


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## IND151

Keel said:


> Allow me to speak frankly but bluntly, beating India is never on our minds.
> Give us the big boys



Are you aware that India is the only nation whcih successfully reached Mars in first attempt?

Plus we are Fisrt Asian nation to conquer Mars.

Which means when other asian nations will have their Mars mission they will be second.

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## isro2222

Waiting for 2017 when india will send indian to space. India is future as its cheap to send from ISRO. it doesnt matter who sended human how many times. What matters is how much cheap cost it is how success of launch. ISRO is future. Even superior NASA admits it. Today china limited to moon but india reached Mars. That tells everything how ISRO will score.


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## OrionHunter

Keel said:


> You havent check the details
> The failure was solely due to the Russian rocket which we was piggybagged on
> It is not a failure on our part and never a joke


So you guys can't even make a rocket to launch a Mars craft? What a joke!

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## l'ingénieur

india is a noob

china and russie been at this quite a while now

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## nair

What is there to compete????? China is far ahead in space technology and they are moving fast, simultaneously India is also moving ahead in space technology....... There is no comparison between two........


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## RisingShiningSuperpower

nair said:


> What is there to compete????? China is far ahead in space technology and they are moving fast, simultaneously India is also moving ahead in space technology....... There is no comparison between two........



India is not far behind China in space exploration. It will quickly surpass China under Modi-ji's guidance.

After India sends her first vyomanaut into space next year, India will have caught up with China.

India will send astronaut into space by 2015: ISRO chief - The Times of India

*India will send astronaut into space by 2015: ISRO chief*
NAGPUR: India will send an astronaut into space on one of its own rockets by 2015 and embark on a manned mission to the moon by 2020, the country's space agency chief said on Friday.

Before sending an astronaut to the moon, the country will send the Chandrayaan-I satellite to the moon next year, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) Chairman Madhavan Nair said.

"India will be launching Chandrayaan-I by mid-next year for carrying out scientific experiments on the moon," he said after inaugurating an information and communication technology gallery at the Raman Science centre.

The satellite with a payload of 560 kg will carry instruments to study the moon's surface. It will be launched on the PSLV rocket around August next year, Nair said.

Chandrayaan-I will orbit the moon and take visuals and photographs of its surface. It will remain in orbit for two years and this will be first experiment of its kind by ISRO as part of the planned lunar mission, he said.

Rakesh Sharma was the first Indian to go into space but he travelled on a Russian rocket.

Nair also said the ISRO has acquired the capability to commercially launch satellites for other countries. A UN organisation is working to minimise debris in space and exploring ways to get rid of this problem, he said. Nair lauded Maharashtra's role in using tele-medicine and tele-education technology.

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## Hiptullha

RisingShiningSuperpower said:


> "India has major issues regarding education, health [and] rural sanitation, and these struggle to get funds," said the columnist Praful Bidwai. "Yet here we are, funding a giant national ego trip when people do not have latrines. It's monstrous ... If the aim is to promote science, why not invest in climate change technologies?"



Good to see Indians waking up. Brahmins should be worried for their lives. Their toilet persecution will no longer be tolerated by Indians.

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## Krate M

I know this thread is badly derailed but was this discussed?


> A pact was inked between Indian Space Research Organisation and China National Space Administration on cooperation in the peaceful use of space.
> 
> The MoU enables both sides to encourage exchange and cooperation in the exploration and use of outer space for peaceful purposes, including research and development of scientific experiment, remote sensing and communications satellites.


After Narendra Modi-Xi Jinping meet, India, China ink 12 pacts; $20 bn investment vowed over 5 yrs - Financial Express Mobile

Why compete when you can cooperate. We both want to move forward in technology. Why fall in the colonial trap.

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## Atri Ganguly

Krate M said:


> I know this thread is badly derailed but was this discussed?
> 
> After Narendra Modi-Xi Jinping meet, India, China ink 12 pacts; $20 bn investment vowed over 5 yrs - Financial Express Mobile
> 
> Why compete when you can cooperate. We both want to move forward in technology. Why fall in the colonial trap.


Same , India China can co-operate more to power up Asia and BRICS than fighting a bilateral cold war. Space collab , trade etc. are good thing will help China and India take the 1st and 2nd spot in economy faster , only if the stupid govt. of both sides knew . -_-


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## Krate M

Atri Ganguly said:


> Same , India China can co-operate more to power up Asia and BRICS than fighting a bilateral cold war. Space collab , trade etc. are good thing will help China and India take the 1st and 2nd spot in economy faster , only if the stupid govt. of both sides knew . -_-


Bhai the Governments know 
That's why these agreements are being signed. Modi is very pro China. 
Thank God diplomacy is not done by hormonal keyboard warriors.

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Of course, just go to my first post in this thread and from there on, you spewed false information and half truths, drailing the whole thread and making base remarks on the poors and now you cry for clemency?
> 
> Bioful has been problematic not only from the technical perspective, but above all from ethical perspective. Food that can feed millions of hungry people are used for driving. Vast areas of rain forest are destroyed to plant crops for bio fuel.



Well...whats your solution for depopulation? Because in the end thats the only solution.


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## Atri Ganguly

Krate M said:


> Bhai the Governments know
> That's why these agreements are being signed. Modi is very pro China.
> Thank God diplomacy is not done by hormonal keyboard warriors.


Yes , Modi knows , he is open to business but please tell me one thing also if any Chinese friend reading this tell me if possible why is China still being hostile towards India ? To protect a terror breeding failed state ? Or is their anything else ?


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## Krate M

We should have a BRICS satellite. Space is a domain where everybody cooperate. US uses Russian rockets. France and India are using making satellite together. Why talk about competition. Let's not derail thread by bringing other things in this.

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## Atri Ganguly

Yes , BRICS satellite is a very good idea . ISRO already showed how cheap a launch can be and yet successful so we should co-operate. Anyway , Modi is pro-business, pro-cooperation and doesn't mind Chinese involvment in Indian market but China needs to respect it too. We have not shown any hostility towards them despite of the border tension while we are shelling the hell out of Pakistan in western borders . China should realize we are not the enemy if they don't want us to be .


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## Sanchez

Atri Ganguly said:


> Yes , Modi knows , he is open to business but please tell me one thing also if any Chinese friend reading this tell me if possible why is China still being hostile towards India ? To protect a terror breeding failed state ? Or is their anything else ?



Is China hostile to India? Oh no it's the other way around. Majority of Indian posters seem to be biased and hostile to China.

Up to recently years US was the country to "protect" Pakistan. China and Paskistan are friendly countries and we have had good experience of mutual trust and support. You are an Indian who shud know what non alignment or bilateral means...

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## Speeder 2

Atri Ganguly said:


> Yes , BRICS satellite is a very good idea . ISRO already showed how cheap a launch can be and yet successful so we should co-operate. ..



Paulez! it was NASA and ESA who showed how cheap it was to launch it using cheap launching facilities in India.

are you really wet-dreaming ISRO can pull out this feat alone as its propaganda says? 

the main part, and the only meaningful part, of the mission has been done by NASA and ESA for India, for free.

India alone can not even send a patato to the moon, let alone mars.

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## Atri Ganguly

Speeder 2 said:


> Paulez! it was NASA and ESA who showed how cheap it was to launch it using cheap launching facilities in India.
> 
> are you really wet-dreaming ISRO can pull out this feat alone as its propaganda says?
> 
> the main part, and the only meaningful part, of the mission has been done by NASA and ESA for India, for free.
> 
> India alone can not even send a patato to the moon, let alone mars.


Height of douche. ISRO has been launching payloads for other countries like Germany , Austria , Singapore, Canada and many more since 1999 . You are telling me NASA , ESA teaching us space tech ? Please don't be so ignorant go check the facts . As far as launch success goes since 99 therehas been no unsuccessful launch , even the last PSLV launched payloads for france , canada , germany and singapore in june . You need to get your facts checked .

Only assistance we used was Australian deep space comm sat for confirming orbit insertion on the mars projects . There's no NASA here , and hell with ESA . pffff


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## Atri Ganguly

Speeder 2 said:


> BTW, the Russia researcher in the OP is a dick.
> 
> 
> you must be a shining example of how an Indian can lie with a straight face?


-_- Look at the PSLV lanuch history and payload identity . Why do I need to lie ? 
Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Speeder 2

Atri Ganguly said:


> -_- Look at the PSLV lanuch history and payload identity . Why do I need to lie ?
> Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



it's a wasting of time talking to a liar. this is my last response to you:

1. whereyou bought PSLV then and now? its fuel? , its second and third level rocket shell materials? its laser gyro guidance system? its engines? its mission critical anti-high tempereture alloys on board? its mission critical super hard alloys on board? its atomic clock tech, used by related sat to make every lanuch workable... etc etc... 5 dozens turnkey technologies of making the very essence of a PSLA rocket?

Where you bought and buy them? russia, france, britain, switserland, israel, germany, etc, etc..

the key of dicussion here is not you have PSLV rocket, Somalia can have PSLV too if they buy them. Your India import most of the key tech of PSLV oke? You rely on the mercy of others. You did not, you do not, you could not and you still can't make all these basic tech yourself.

So stopping bragging about your pathetic PSLV. Even that is not yours, but a combi of cheap imports from no less than 5 countries.


2. you are lying to your teeth that this mars mission has no work from NASA and ESA. In fact, the 90% of this mission, the deep space sensing and control, basically what a mars mission is all about, has been conduted by NASA with some assistance of ESA networks. as I said, without NASA and ESA, ISRO's space aseets alone can not even sense and control a patato half a way from the moon, let alone mars. The mission is cheap because Indian launching facility is cheap. If someone sets up a cheap launching site in Nigeria or Somalia, Nigeria and Somalia can go to mars, too, with NASA/ESA network of course.

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## Krate M

I am not hostile towards China, I also believe that Chinese policy is far more realistic towards Pakistan. 
It doesn't supply weapons free to Pakistan unlike US. 
Also I think India and China have complementary advantages in space technology.
China has greater launch capacity while India has expertise in remote sensing and certain other payloads


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## Krate M

@Speeder 2 
Deep space network is a cooperative agreement between group of nations doing deep space program. Even China uses it because you cannot communicate with the satellite round the clock.
Regarding space technology, everybody copied the German technology. So nobody else should make rockets?
Can you prove which components of pslv are imported?


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## Speeder 2

Krate M said:


> @Speeder 2
> Deep space network is a cooperative agreement between group of nations doing deep space program. Even China uses it because you cannot communicate with the satellite round the clock.
> Regarding space technology, everybody copied the German technology. So nobody else should make rockets?
> Can you prove which components of pslv are imported?



In terms of deep space sensing and control - a mars mission or a jupiter mission for example:


ONLY USA - NASA has the complete network. 

ESA second.

Russia is the thrid.

China is the fourth, but soon to be #2. ( USA ban China from joinning int'l space agency for mutual help. So China has to do it largely alone or with Russia)

Japan is the fifth,

Then France

then Italy

then Germany

...

All other nations don't, thus rely on int'l organisations and mutual help.

India is far outside top 10, even behind countries like Australia or Spain in terms of deep space capability. ISRO has only 2 antennas, both of them bought from Japan from the 90's on. ( India doesn't even have tech to make these antennas!)

On india's imported key PSLV tech, it's public knowledge. google it. It is also common sense that you can't have sth that you are incapable of making it yourself, except import.

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## Jlaw

1 they can increase the speed off the hsr
2 some people are afraid of flying, this is an alternative
3 the hsr will cost less than flying, so it has economic benefit
4 i hate to have to be at airport 3 hrs before flight....this adds to the travelling time


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## Keel

Atri Ganguly said:


> Are you by any chance a muslim with special kind of hatred for India ? Because I don't see why should a dutch hate India , since your country flag says you are from Netherlands . Just curious .



Indians are inviting the hatred usually 

When you bragged MOM program is cheaper than a Hollywood movie, I wonder if NASA has sent you the bill charging their service throughout. So @Speeder 2 has many valid points against your claims. 

Also when your nation first claimed finding traces of water on the Lunar surface, it was untrue. Russians (the former Soviet Union) found water on the moon before you 

When Indians claimed for "landing" on moon "with its flag" as the "5th" member of the exclusive club ( USA, Soviet Union, Japan, ESA) you were doing something in desperation because there was no other choice but to crash your malfunctioning short lived moon orbiter onto the surface.

Your launch was in October 2008 while our moon orbiter was launched on
October 2007, about 1 year earlier.

Chang'e 1 was a durable craft functioning so well that it outlived our expectation. When Indian crashed your orbiter on the moon on Nov 14, 2008, Chang'e 1 was still doing her jobs brilliantly in orbit way above the heap of Indian debris left on the moon surface until she signed off from her mission crashing on the moon on March 1, 2009

Did we want the claim to "land" on the moon before the Indians? No. Because our orbiter was outliving our expectations so why ended her life against her wish 

We are not Indians afterall! 

Mission Accomplished: India fifth in world to reach moon - The Times of India
Chandrayaan-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chang'e 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Krate M

Keel said:


> Indians are inviting the hatred usually
> 
> When you bragged MOM program is cheaper than a Hollywood movie, I wonder if NASA has sent you the bill charging their service throughout. So @Speeder 2 has many valid points against your claims.
> 
> Also when your nation first claimed finding traces of water on the Lunar surface, it was untrue. Russians (the former Soviet Union) found water on the moon before you
> 
> When Indians claimed for "landing" on moon "with its flag" as the "5th" member of the exclusive club ( USA, Soviet Union, Japan, ESA) you were doing something in desperation because there was no other choice but to crash your malfunctioning short lived moon orbiter onto the surface.
> 
> Your launch was in October 2008 while our moon orbiter was launched on
> October 2007, about 1 year earlier.
> 
> Chang'e 1 was a durable craft functioning so well that it outlived our expectation. When Indian crashed your orbiter on the moon on Nov 14, 2008, Chang'e 1 was still doing her jobs brilliantly in orbit way above the heap of Indian debris left on the moon surface until she signed off from her mission crashing on the moon on March 1, 2009
> 
> Did we want the claim to "land" on the moon before the Indians? No. Because our orbiter was outliving our expectations so why ended her life against her wish
> 
> We are not Indians afterall!
> 
> Mission Accomplished: India fifth in world to reach moon - The Times of India
> Chandrayaan-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Chang'e 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Chan'ge was a good mission, but that doesn't take away anything from Chandrayaan.
China has better launch vehicles which translated to the greater life of their mission. I have no problem in saying India is behind in space technology, but to say everything is imported is plain trolling. 
India didn't claim first to discover water, we claimed conclusive proof of presence of water. There is a difference.
About the landing and life of orbiter agree with you, it could have been better. But hey we are learning.
I believe India looks up to China and tries to follow in some respect. If anything you guys should be flattered. 
That said I believe space is a final frontier for humans and we have seen cooperation in this field and there should be cooperation between us.


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## kurup

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Yet they still don't have their own manned mission, so this only shows so much control that the US has over these lackey countries, and also to show how difficult is to build up its own ecosystem for the national space program.



What has America got to do with Indian manned mission ?? 

Making stupid comparison to feel good .



Keel said:


> Indians have the access to foreign technologies. Their more powerful rocket engines are given immense help from the Russians. Also India would not have reached the Mars orbit without the assistance from NASA.
> 
> European space agency, Japan and S Korea etc also have these advantages over us.
> 
> We are very much a lone soul in space but solidly progressing on our own path - building a space industry literally most by ourselves, confidently.
> 
> What a proud moment to cheer for



You got no help ..... my foot .

Helping China to the Moon / Operations / Our Activities / ESA


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> Chan'ge was a good mission, but that doesn't take away anything from Chandrayaan.
> China has better launch vehicles which translated to the greater life of their mission. I have no problem in saying India is behind in space technology, but to say everything is imported is plain trolling.
> *India didn't claim first to discover wate*r, we claimed conclusive proof of presence of water. There is a difference.
> About the landing and life of orbiter agree with you, it could have been better. But hey we are learning.
> I believe India looks up to China and tries to follow in some respect. If anything you guys should be flattered.
> That said I believe space is a final frontier for humans and we have seen cooperation in this field and there should be cooperation between us.



*Indians claimed this:  *
Chandrayaan first discovered water on moon, but… | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

when Soviet Union had this discovered: 
Soviet find of water on the Moon in the 1970s ignored by the West





RKO said:


> Burn in hell.... @Keel



Are you practising witchcraft for a living?
Just dont curse it behind my back which has the effect of shooting the curse back in double doses on you, loser!

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## Keel

kurup said:


> You got no help ..... my foot .
> Helping China to the Moon / Operations / Our Activities / ESA



That is not the point
ISRO claimed the Mars mission cheaper than a Hollywood movie without counting the cost incurred but not invoiced by NASA

Overall we rely an overwhelmingly lot on ourselves than Indian's missions 

You even dont have the heavy lift rocket without Russia's help:
The Space Review: GSLV-D5 success: A major “booster” to India’s space program

A lot of equipment in your Chandrayaan-1 were not Indian made
Chandrayaan-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## sword1947

I must be drunk when I read this article.


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## Krate M

Keel said:


> *Indians claimed this:  *
> Chandrayaan first discovered water on moon, but… | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
> 
> when Soviet Union had this discovered:
> Soviet find of water on the Moon in the 1970s ignored by the West


I have to admit Indian media when it comes to science reporting is not good, there are few exceptions, but mostly its bad. They may have even claimed we discovered life.



Keel said:


> That is not the point
> ISRO claimed the Mars mission cheaper than a Hollywood movie without counting the cost incurred but not invoiced by NASA
> 
> Overall we rely an overwhelmingly lot on ourselves than Indian's missions
> 
> You even dont have the heavy lift rocket without Russia's help:
> The Space Review: GSLV-D5 success: A major “booster” to India’s space program
> 
> A lot of equipment in your Chandrayaan-1 were not Indian made
> Chandrayaan-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A lot is not completely. Both China and India rely on other nations for support. Again its a collaborative thing, space is a frontier for human collaboration. See your upcoming lander mission will take the exactly the same kind of help from ESA and others as mangalyaan did. Are you guys being charged for that? I dont think so.

Chang'e 3 ready to launch to the Moon | The Planetary Society

Chang’e-3 liftoff is set for around 18:00 GMT on 1 December, and the 15 m-diameter dish in Kourou will pick up the first signals around 18:44 GMT.

ESA's Estrack tracking station control room at ESOC, the European Space Operations Centre, Working with Chinese tracking stations,* Kourou will support the mission* through lunar orbit entry on 6 December continuing until just prior to its descent to the surface, expected around mid-day on 14 December.

The landing and rover operations on the Moon will be commanded via two Chinese tracking stations at Kashi, in the far west of China, and at Jiamusi, in the northeast.

*“After the lander and rover are on the surface, we will use our 35 m-diameter deep-space antennas at Cebreros, Spain, and New Norcia, Australia, to provide ‘delta-DOR’ location measurement,” says Erik Soerensen, responsible for external mission tracking support at ESOC.*

“Using this delta-DOR technique, you can compute locations with extreme accuracy, which will help our Chinese colleagues to determine the precise location of the lander.”

Together with Cebreros, New Norcia will record Chang’e-3’s radio signals during landing, which will help the Chinese space agency to reconstruct the trajectory for future reference.

*A team of engineers from China will be on hand in Darmstadt.* “While we’re very international at ESOC, hardly anyone speaks Mandarin, so having Chinese colleagues on site will really help in case of any unforeseen problems,” says Erik.

“Both sides are using international technical standards to enable our stations and ESOC to communicate with their mission and ground systems."
-----------------------------
Also in past they helped you. See this:
Chang'e-1 - eoPortal Directory - Satellite Missions

*ESA tracking support for the Chang'e-1 mission:*

The People's Republic of China and ESA have a long history of scientific collaboration. The first co-operation agreement was signed in 1980, to facilitate the exchange of scientific information. Thirteen years later, the collaboration focused on a specific mission, ESA’s Cluster, to study the Earth's magnetosphere. Then, in 1997, the CNSA invited ESA to participate in Double Star, a two-satellite mission to study the Earth’s magnetic field, but from a perspective which is different from that of Cluster and complementary to it.

During ESA's SMART-1 mission, which ended in September 2006, ESA/ESOC provided China with details of the spacecraft's position and transmission frequencies so that the Chinese could test their tracking stations and ground operation procedures by following it - a part of their preparation for Chang'e-1. 25)

During the development phase of the Chang'e-1 spacecraft, ESA's ground station network ESTRACK was mobilized to provide direct support to China's Chang'e-1 moon mission. The Chang’e-1 mission was supported from the ESA ground stations in Maspalomas and Kourou. During the track on Nov. 1, 2007 for the first time, ESA tracking stations have transmitted telecommands to a Chinese satellite. 26) 27)

This was the culmination of a long preparation performed by BACC (Beijing Aerospace Control Center) and ESOC (European Space Operations Center) that started nearly two years before the launch, where a Chinese delegation visited ESOC in 2005 to explore the possibilities for ESOC to provide tracking support to Chang’e-1. Following detailed discussions on the support ESOC and BACC agreed in February 2006 on a contract to provide the required support.

Following the agreement on the cooperation, ESOC and BACC were faced with the problem of connecting two systems: the BACC missions control system and the ESOC ground station network ESTRACK; this had to happen within the relative short period of one year. The ESOC proposal to BACC was based on ESOC’s model for providing cross support to other agencies such as NASA and JAXA and the proposal from ESOC was to provide the Chang’e-1 support based on CCSDS standards and therefore to provide systems interoperability without modifying the BACC system and the ESOC system. This model hides the implementation on both sides and only defines the interfaces needed to be support on both sides. To measure the success of this the project used the connect of verification and validation.


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## Kloitra

Keel said:


> That is not the point
> ISRO claimed the Mars mission cheaper than a Hollywood movie without counting the cost incurred but not invoiced by NASA


Do you mean that from its deep space navigation?


> Overall we rely an overwhelmingly lot on ourselves than Indian's missions
> 
> You even dont have the heavy lift rocket without Russia's help:
> The Space Review: GSLV-D5 success: A major “booster” to India’s space program


The entire delay in the GSLV was because India didn't get Russian help, which was initially expected. 


> A lot of equipment in your Chandrayaan-1 were not Indian made
> Chandrayaan-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Chandrayaan was supposed to carry different equipments for different purposes. It is like different research labs collaborating to use a facility for different research.

But, I agree with your earlier posts that Indian developments are hyped way more than what they actually accomplish.


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> I have to admit Indian media when it comes to science reporting is not good, there are few exceptions, but mostly its bad. They may have even claimed we discovered life.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot is not completely. Both China and India rely on other nations for support. Again its a collaborative thing, space is a frontier for human collaboration. See your upcoming lander mission will take the exactly the same kind of help from ESA and others as mangalyaan did. Are you guys being charged for that? I dont think so.
> 
> Chang'e 3 ready to launch to the Moon | The Planetary Society
> 
> Chang’e-3 liftoff is set for around 18:00 GMT on 1 December, and the 15 m-diameter dish in Kourou will pick up the first signals around 18:44 GMT.
> 
> ESA's Estrack tracking station control room at ESOC, the European Space Operations Centre, Working with Chinese tracking stations, Kourou will support the mission through lunar orbit entry on 6 December continuing until just prior to its descent to the surface, expected around mid-day on 14 December.
> 
> The landing and rover operations on the Moon will be commanded via two Chinese tracking stations at Kashi, in the far west of China, and at Jiamusi, in the northeast.
> 
> “After the lander and rover are on the surface, we will use our 35 m-diameter deep-space antennas at Cebreros, Spain, and New Norcia, Australia, to provide ‘delta-DOR’ location measurement,” says Erik Soerensen, responsible for external mission tracking support at ESOC.
> 
> “Using this delta-DOR technique, you can compute locations with extreme accuracy, which will help our Chinese colleagues to determine the precise location of the lander.”
> 
> Together with Cebreros, New Norcia will record Chang’e-3’s radio signals during landing, which will help the Chinese space agency to reconstruct the trajectory for future reference.
> 
> A team of engineers from China will be on hand in Darmstadt. “While we’re very international at ESOC, hardly anyone speaks Mandarin, so having Chinese colleagues on site will really help in case of any unforeseen problems,” says Erik.
> 
> “Both sides are using international technical standards to enable our stations and ESOC to communicate with their mission and ground systems."



Dont blame your media which are bad most of the time
ISRO shared the big mouth claims I think

On the second part about ESA's assistance in tracking. We never denied ESA's help and wih much thanks not because we cant do the job but because of territorial rights that we cant build antennas as wide spread as extending to the locations in Europe as we know the hostility from NASA on our space programmes

Again the point is ISRO said the cost of your Mars Mission being cheaper than a Hollywood Movie while omitting NSAS's service costs is a ridiculously reckless claim.

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## Krate M

Ok I get your point NASA helped us but didnt help you. So that's our fault or doing of your compatriots who have caused NASA and US to doubt you guys. What is stopping you guys from getting a cooperation agreement.
The only point you are making is NASA's service cost, they didnt charge us because we have a deal with them. BIG DEAL.
Mangalyaan was cheaper than hollywood movie Gravity. 
Kar bhala to ho bhala.


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## Keel

Kloitra said:


> Do you mean that from its deep space navigation?
> 
> The entire delay in the GSLV was because India didn't get Russian help, which was initially expected.
> 
> Chandrayaan was supposed to carry different equipments for different purposes. It is like different research labs collaborating to use a facility for different research.
> 
> But, I agree with your earlier posts that Indian developments are hyped way more than what they actually accomplish.



I guess your understanding is better than some other insolent Indian posters above and thus no more comment from me iro your post. 



Krate M said:


> Ok I get your point NASA helped us but didnt help you. So that's our fault or doing of your compatriots who have caused NASA and US to doubt you guys.
> The only point you are making is NASA's service cost, they didnt charge us because we have a deal with them. BIG DEAL.
> Mangalyaan was cheaper than hollywood movie Gravity.



Haha you are twisting facts again
You should calculate the total cost of your Mars mission by adding the "potential" costs of equivalent service as provided by NASA before you made the claim  . You cannot reach Mars without spending a dime on tracking in future unless NASA or someone is giving you a free ride next time.


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## Krate M

@Keel 
you get similar "free ride " from EU, your chang'e mission would be costlier or even impossible without help from other nations. Its collaboration and cooperation, that is a major part of the space exploration. I hope you understand that and also understand that not only do we use NASA facilities, they use our DSN facilities too, its mutual.
Why should we add potential costs when we don't have to. You dont add extra price to discounted goods do you? We got it cheap, we are happy about it, why does that cause so much heartburn to you? You didnt get discount thats why?


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> @Keel
> you get similar "free ride " from EU, your chang'e mission would be costlier or even impossible without help from other nations. Its collaboration and cooperation, that is a major part of the space exploration. I hope you understand that and also understand that not only do we use NASA facilities, they use our DSN facilities too, its mutual.
> Why should we add potential costs when we don't have to. You dont add extra price to discounted goods do you? We got it cheap, we are happy about it, why does that cause so much heartburn to you? You didnt get discount thats why?



OMG it was not China's claim that we have launched the CHEAPEST Chang'e 3 mission for God's sake.

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## Krate M

@Keel That aside, why does NASA not collaborate with China in space matters? Serious question.


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> @Keel That aside, why does NASA not collaborate with China in space matters? Serious question.



Now you finally understand why I said ISRO is making a reckless claim again

For your 'serious" question, I think they do not want us to do well when they know of our great potentials and their suspicioun of our using the space tech for military purposes.

Dont get hurt over this in reflection but my reply is as frank as I can.

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## Krate M

Nope I understood what your point is.
You feel that ISRO hasn't really put the cost of help it got for free in the mangalyaan mission, which may have cost more if such facilities were charged for, therefore claiming like this is illogical.
But what we see is that we got a good deal because of our good relations and so the cost incurred turned out to be low and that is nothing to unhappy about. So why would it be wrong to say we incurred x amount and that was lower than a sci-fi movie.

I understand that you wouldnt be convinced about it and made my peace with the fact that I am not here to convince you about such facts.
peace


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## halupridol

whats this competition thing,,,,,,,,,,we shud be cooperating


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## Krate M

^egg jactly what I was telling, BRICS satellite FTW. Hell we should have a BRICS space station


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> Nope I understood what your point is.
> You feel that ISRO hasn't really put the cost of help it got for free in the mangalyaan mission, which may have cost more if such facilities were charged for, therefore claiming like this is illogical.
> But what we see is that we got a good deal because of our good relations and so the cost incurred turned out to be low and that is nothing to unhappy about. So why would it be wrong to say we incurred x amount and that was lower than a sci-fi movie.
> 
> I understand that you wouldnt be convinced about it and made my peace with the fact that I am not here to convince you about such facts.
> peace



You still want to engage in another round of foolish claim despite the clear logic is there 
Has NASA charged you at all?
Do you get the same "FOC" or "Discount" from NASA again next time around?

If a country wants India to help launch an orbiter to Mars, what cost would you quote to your "client" - the same 
"cheapest" cost as that one or a new and higher price with consideration for inclusion of NASA's equivalent service cost ?



Krate M said:


> ^egg jactly what I was telling, BRICS satellite FTW. Hell we should have a BRICS space station



a BRCS space station Sorry India

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## Kloitra

Keel said:


> You still want to engage in another round of foolish claim despite the clear logic is there
> Has NASA charged you at all?
> Do you get the same "FOC" or "Discount" from NASA again next time around?
> 
> If a country wants India to help launch an orbiter to Mars, what cost would you quote to your "client" - the same
> "cheapest" cost as that one or a new and higher price with consideration for inclusion of NASA's equivalent service cost ?



DSN is not free of cost, the service is charged based on use.


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## Krate M

Keel said:


> You still want to engage in another round of foolish claim despite the clear logic is there
> Has NASA charged you at all?
> Do you get the same "FOC" or "Discount" from NASA again next time around?
> 
> If a country wants India to help launch an orbiter to Mars, what cost would you quote to your "client" - the same
> "cheapest" cost as that one or a new and higher price with consideration for inclusion of NASA's equivalent service cost ?
> 
> 
> 
> a BRCS space station Sorry India


You still want to engage in another round of foolish claim despite the clear logic is there  ,
lets agree to disagree. You get my logic though right?
I was thinking IndoChinese space station but wanted more ppl, but if thats what you guys want its your choice.
Do you seriously think there are no opportunities to collaborate between China and India in space matters. Why fall for colonial traps?

@Kloitra plz explain a bit more.


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## halupridol

Keel said:


> You still want to engage in another round of foolish claim despite the clear logic is there
> Has NASA charged you at all?
> Do you get the same "FOC" or "Discount" from NASA again next time around?
> 
> If a country wants India to help launch an orbiter to Mars, what cost would you quote to your "client" - the same
> "cheapest" cost as that one or a new and higher price with consideration for inclusion of NASA's equivalent service cost ?


this mission puts India with few other capable nations,,,,so ofcourse it has its benefits,doesnt matter whether u acknowledge it or not.


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## Keel

Kloitra said:


> DSN is not free of cost, the service is charged based on use.



You said at a 'good deal" @#140 above didnt you? 
So the same package deal cannot be true if a new mission is to be carried out again IF the " good deal" is not agreed with NASA.

Therefore the "cheaper than Hollywood Movie" is misleading and the statement cannot be univerally true . It was too early for ISRO or even reckless to claim that if they did not say part of the reasons for the cheaper cost overall was because of NASA's "good deal"  So next time if any potential clients approach you for a Mars venture they will know the cost could be a lot higher than this Mars mission if ISRO have stated like what I said 



halupridol said:


> this mission puts India with few other capable nations,,,,so ofcourse it has its benefits,doesnt matter whether u acknowledge it or not.



I am not denying what you have done in your Mars mission
I am only challenging ISRO's claim of making the venture's cost lower than a Hollywood Movie which is misleading for a third party who does not know " a good deal" with NASA

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## Kloitra

Keel said:


> You said at a 'good deal" @#140 above didnt you?
> So the same package deal cannot be true if a new mission is to be carried out again IF the " good deal" is not agreed with NASA.
> 
> Therefore the "cheaper than Hollywood Movie" is misleading and the statement cannot be univerally true . It was too early for ISRO or even reckless to claim that if they did not say part of the reasons for the cheaper cost overall was because of NASA's "good deal"  So next time if any potential clients approach you for a Mars venture they will know the cost could be a lot higher than this Mars mission if ISRO have stated like what I said



No, I am generally commenting based on your more than one comment - services provided by NASA aren't free. There cost is included in mission cost. America is free only in name, everything costs there!

MOM was cheap due to several reasons - cheap labor (scientific/skilled/unskilled), cheap services, limited objectives, limited time scale etc. NASA conducts various tests on its equipments to verify reliability, for ISRO it was hit or miss. But ultimate result is that mission was cheap.

This in itself isn't of any value. What it signifies is that India offers cost effective, most economic space lift services. This has been true for light weight LEO satellites till now, ISRO has launched many foreign satellites. But it just add credibility to future GEO/heavier payload services.


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## Keel

Kloitra said:


> No, I am generally commenting based on your more than one comment - services provided by NASA aren't free. There cost is included in mission cost. America is free only in name, everything costs there!



As you said there was " a good deal" which may not be applicable in the next identical mission to Mars
So you should have stated and credited NASA giving you " a good deal"  so as to make your "cheapest" claim possible

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## Krate M

All I can say is Modi is a damn good marketer and given how much response he has got here that alone shows how he can get where he wants to get. Just once he commented on mangalyaan and gravity in passing and we are discussing on and on and on.
Brilliant that guy!
@Keel my friend you let Modi get to you  He is in your mind already.


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## Kloitra

Keel said:


> As you said there was " a good deal" which may not be applicable in the next identical mission to Mars
> So you should have stated and credited NASA giving you " a good deal"  so as to make your "cheapest" claim possible


I am not saying it was a good deal - the cost of NASA services like DSN is fixed. I quoted your last comment I could find, not a specific comment. Point was to convey cost incurred by NASA have been added, and are not hidden. The hidden cost would be the annual budget of ISRO, which goes for salaries and many different projects but isn't added in any.
And please check my edited post.


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## halupridol

Keel said:


> I am not denying what you have done in your Mars mission
> I am only challenging ISRO's claim of making the venture's cost lower than a Hollywood Movie which is misleading for a third party who does not know " a good deal" with NASA


i dont know much about the financial details,,,,,but the mars mission has accomplished what it was supposed to do.
n for ur post,,,well bro,,,its marketing


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## Keel

Kloitra said:


> I am not saying it was a good deal - the cost of NASA services like DSN is fixed. I quoted your last comment I could find, not a specific comment. Point was to convey cost incurred by NASA have been added, and are not hidden. The hidden cost would be the annual budget of ISRO, which goes for salaries and many different projects but isn't added in any.
> And please check my edited post.



See you guys are capricious, changing your statements as frequently as the wind blows in the tropical seasons  Acually you are not aware of what the price structure was, arent you?



halupridol said:


> i dont know much about the financial details,,,,,but the mars mission has accomplished what it was supposed to do.
> n for ur post,,,well bro,,,its marketing



well there is no point in further discussion as the financial details when challenged are not known
So end of further comments on my side.

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## Kloitra

Keel said:


> See you guys are capricious, changing your statements as frequently as the wind blows in the tropical seasons  Acually you are not aware of what the price structure was, arent you?


Where did I changed my statement? I mentioned that NASA services are not free and charged, where did I changed that?


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## Krate M

@Keel no comments on the cooperation aspect as well?


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## halupridol

Keel said:


> well there is no point in further discussion as the financial details when challenged are not known
> So end of further comments on my side.


so u agree that there is no competition between us.
we both,as countries,r trying our best n trying to do what others did years ago?


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## halfilhal

Keel said:


> Indians have the access to foreign technologies. Their more powerful rocket engines are given immense help from the Russians. Also India would not have reached the Mars orbit without the assistance from NASA.
> 
> European space agency, Japan and S Korea etc also have these advantages over us.
> 
> We are very much a lone soul in space but solidly progressing on our own path - building a space industry literally most by ourselves, confidently.
> 
> What a proud moment to cheer for



Have you patented your technological formula? Ctrl C Ctrl V


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## Beidou2020

India? 

Put a man into space and stop calling Moon and Mars missions as 'Indian' projects when they are joint missions with NASA just like their joint military projects with Russia.

Pretending to be space competitor to China.

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## Luca1

Beidou2020 said:


> India?
> 
> Put a man into space and stop calling Moon and Mars missions as 'Indian' projects when they are joint missions with NASA just like their joint military projects with Russia.
> 
> Pretending to be space competitor to China.



How is India's Mars mission a joint effort with NASA. Did IRSO use any US stations during the mission?


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## Beidou2020

Luca1 said:


> How is India's Mars mission a joint effort with NASA. Did IRSO use any US stations during the mission?



Go read up on that mission. Everything will become clear.

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## Luca1

Beidou2020 said:


> Go read up on that mission. Everything will become clear.



Base on your response, 
I don't need to read up on anything to know the answer


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## Beidou2020

Luca1 said:


> Base on your response,
> I don't need to read up on anything to know the answer



 yea India orbited Mars all by itself without any support from NASA.

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## Luca1

Beidou2020 said:


> yea India orbited Mars all by itself without any support from NASA.



I bet this is what most Indians believe?


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## Beidou2020

Luca1 said:


> I bet this is what most Indians believe?



Yup

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## Krate M

Only thing the Chinese posters are jealous of NASA ISRO collaboration. We all know of the DSN support we got from international community, that part was clearly mentioned in the news. Why so angry at it?


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## Beidou2020

Krate M said:


> Only thing the Chinese posters are jealous of NASA ISRO collaboration. We all know of the DSN support we got from international community, that part was clearly mentioned in the news. Why so angry at it?



Who is angry?

We just want some honesty. 

Chinese media, government and even PDF members congratulated India.

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## Krate M

Are any of the Chinese posters making any other point than saying you guys got NASA help your program not that good?
Every Indian poster is saying yes we know and no that doesn't take anything away from our program. We achieved a lot from the program, all the inane marketing blabber has been to get maximum mileage out of it in terms of getting more people interested in our space program. That was not for you guys. So why are we still discussing a one liner by PM Modi?
That guy is a master of marketing and hype, but he knows how to use the hype and marketing. Unless you guys have been taken by it too.


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## kurup

Beidou2020 said:


> Who is angry?
> 
> We just want some honesty.
> 
> Chinese media, government and even PDF members congratulated India.



What honesty ??

Chinese still like to believe their lunar mission was their own effort .

While it is clear that mission was a joint effort with ESA .

Your launch vehicles were designed with help of USA .

Your manned mission in which the crew capsule and even space suits were direct soviet copies with technology provided by Russian .

Honesty my @ss .


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## Raphael

*Why Russia And China See Eye-To-Eye On Cyber Security

MOSCOW* — During President Vladimir Putin's visit to Beijing next month, he is expected to seal a bilateral agreement on cyber-security between Russia and China, according to a source close to the Kremlin and confirmed by two other federal officials. They say presidential advisor Igor Shchyogolev is overseeing the document's final draft, but the final text is not yet available.

Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping are also expected to make their first joint announcement about cyber-security, which _Kommersant_ sources say will be substantially broader than last year's agreement between Russia and the United States.

In 2013, Putin and Barack Obama signed the first-ever bilateral agreement on measures of trust in cyberspace, almost like an electronic "non-aggression pact." Included as part of this agreement was the creation of a direct hotline from Washington to Moscow meant to prevent the escalation of cyber incidents, much like the Cold War hotline designed to prevent nuclear war. The agreement also created channels for bilateral exchange of information related to national cyber-security and preparedness. These channels were created during the preparations for the Winter Olympics in Sochi.

Russia had hoped to reinforce its relationship with the United States in this arena, with a special working group envisioned to continue working on online security. But because of the events in Ukraine, Washington halted its participation in the working group, although the agreement (including the hotline) continues to be in force.

Instead, Russia and China are now busy forging a new partnership on cyber-security. According to Valeria Yashchenko, vice director of the Institute of Cyber Security at Moscow State University, "a bilateral agreement between Russia and China — two major cyber powers — is long overdue."

When asked if the two sides might be trying to protect themselves in case of potential conflict (as was the case in the agreement with the U.S., which was reminiscent of nuclear-arms agreements), Yashchenko says, "Not necessarily. Moscow and Beijing just want to work together."

*Protecting sovereignty, hunting terrorists*

Russia and China certainly have more in common when it comes to cyber-security and Internet management than either country has in common with the United States. This was clear in a recent announcement regarding the Russian-Chinese interagency consultation on international information security. That document clarified that both sides would act against the use of information technology "for the use of interfering in the internal affairs of a country; to undermine the sovereignty or the political, economic or social stability of a country; to disrupt the peace, as propaganda for terrorism, extremism or separatism; to incite inter-ethnic or inter-religious hate or for the use of any criminal or terrorist goals."





_
Xi and Putin last year. Photo: Kremlin_

The document also said that both countries support the "internationalization" of Internet management, which would entail a weakening of the American role in web oversight. Both China and Russia also favor the "sovereign right" of a government to control Internet sites in "its own national segment." The United States, instead, does not recognize the existence of "national segments."

Collaboration between China and Russia in IT and communications has increased in very concrete ways over the past several months. In May, the Russian state telecom company signed a $60 million contract with Chinese company Huawei to build an underwater communication line in the Russian Far East.

In August, the head of the Russian Ministry of Communications reached an agreement with his Chinese counterpart to increase exports of Russian software to China, as well as imports into Russia of servers made by China's largest server manufacturer, Inspur Group. The technology will be used by the Russian government to work on systems related to the production of passports and managing elections, among other uses.

At the same time, the partnership between China and the United States on Internet issues seems to be stuck. "The United State's incorrect position does not permit us to renew the Sino-American talks on this subject," former Chinese foreign minister and State Council member Yang Jiechi said during a recent visit to Washington. Yang was referring to Washington's accusations that China is involved in industrial and governmental cyber espionage.

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## Aepsilons

@SvenSvensonov , you know what this means. United States and Japan should expect greater cyber security threats. Time to double our efforts....


Cyber Attacks Likely to Increase | Pew Research Center's Internet & American Life Project

http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/u-s-japan-defense-industry-cyber-cooperation/

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## SvenSvensonov

Nihonjin1051 said:


> @SvenSvensonov , you know what this means. United States and Japan should expect greater cyber security threats. Time to double our efforts....
> 
> 
> Cyber Attacks Likely to Increase | Pew Research Center's Internet & American Life Project
> 
> http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/u-s-japan-defense-industry-cyber-cooperation/



I doubt too much will come from this agreement. Russia and China also spy on each other, and each other's defense industries. We always have to be vigilant, but no more that usual as these two nations may express their intent to cooperate, but the reality is they are still competitors in cyber land. Also China is seeking to limit the use of foreign software and I doubt they would welcome more Russian gear after they banned their government from using Kaspersky Labs Anti-Virus. Too much being made about nothing in my opinion. But while Russia and China may express an interest in cooperating, Japan, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the UK are already cooperating at an unprecedented level. I won't lose any sleep over this announcement.

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## mike2000

SvenSvensonov said:


> I doubt too much will come from this agreement. Russia and China also spy on each other, and each other's defense industries. We always have to be vigilant, but no more that usual as these two nations may express their intent to cooperate, but the reality is they are still competitors in cyber land. Also China is seeking to limit the use of foreign software and I doubt they would welcome more Russian gear after they banned their government from using Kaspersky Labs Anti-Virus. Too much being made about nothing in my opinion. But while Russia and China may express an interest in cooperating, Japan, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the UK are already cooperating at an unprecedented level. I won't lose any sleep over this announcement.



I agree completely with you on this. This seems to be more of cheap talk(as usual) than a genuine aspiration to cooperate with each other. We,the U.S, Australia, Canada New Zealand(the 5 eyes) already have long working cooperation in such fields for years now. China and Russia talking of setting up one just now, is just to put pressure on the west/U.S to show they are getting along and so they can get some concessions from us. However, i dont expect much from this. Lets wait say 6 years from now(2020) and see the result of this. Im sure they will still be talking about cyber cooperation/security.lool They should keep talking the talk, while we walk the walk.

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> Russia had hoped to reinforce its relationship with the United States in this arena, with a special working group envisioned to continue working on online security. But because of the events in Ukraine, Washington halted its participation in the working group, although the agreement (including the hotline) continues to be in force.
> 
> Instead, Russia and China are now busy forging a new partnership on cyber-security. According to Valeria Yashchenko, vice director of the Institute of Cyber Security at Moscow State University, "a bilateral agreement between Russia and China — two major cyber powers — is long overdue."



That's a great deal right there for both nations. With the framework having been set, China and Russia can now work to institutionalize it by laying down an extensive action plan, including cooperation against US spying and other destabilizing activities against China and Russia. That's in fact, the crux of the agreement. 

Russia's getting closer to the Eurasian bloc and moving away from the Atlantic bloc is a welcome development for China. Beijing will actively pursue on this agreement and will not let it die or get diluted. Beijing's diplomacy has done great on many issues in short time and with great efficiency, including the strategic steps taken in SCO and BRICS; there is no reason to doubt that it will fail on this. I expect this agreement to bear fruits in even a shorter span of time because it is directly related to both nations' national security.

Besides, it is good for Russia to kick out the remaining US presence in the country's cyber network and work with Huawei and the likes to upgrade Russia's network.

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## Shishike

without help from NASA 
Indian rocket would be unable to lunch.

and the mars staff? it's built by international, only little part is Indians.

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## Krate M

Shishike said:


> without help from NASA
> Indian rocket would be unable to lunch.
> 
> and the mars staff? it's built by international, only little part is Indians.


Kindly give some source for your esteemed quotes.

My dear fellow Indian posters,
It has become very clear to me that even though we don't see our space program as a competition to Chinese one, they do.
Hence all these attempts to try and denigrate the program by saying it would not have even "lunched" without American help, was designed and even built by them.
We have only gone slightly ahead that too in just one endeavor and look how much that has caused them to nitpick.
Bottom line: even if we don't see them as competition, they do. So we need to prepare ourselves.
Dear Chinese posters, your space program is quite advanced. Your rockets are more powerful and your human space exploration is quite advanced too. Did you see us say your taikonaut spacesuit was with Russian help or any other nitpicking? No we didn't. So please explain to me why does it bother you so much how we achieved what we achieved
Almost all space programs have been derived from the German rocket science. And the remaining programs have been copycat or using those German scientist. So even if we have been using the help of American and European space agency (which by the way we have not except for tracking our mission) How terrible is it?
And it is all as if the Chinese space program was completely de novo?
Are you kidding me?


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## Shishike

Krate M said:


> Kindly give some source for your esteemed quotes.
> 
> My dear fellow Indian posters,
> It has become very clear to me that even though we don't see our space program as a competition to Chinese one, they do.
> Hence all these attempts to try and denigrate the program by saying it would not have even "lunched" without American help, was designed and even built by them.
> We have only gone slightly ahead that too in just one endeavor and look how much that has caused them to nitpick.
> Bottom line: even if we don't see them as competition, they do. So we need to prepare ourselves.
> Dear Chinese posters, your space program is quite advanced. Your rockets are more powerful and your human space exploration is quite advanced too. Did you see us say your taikonaut spacesuit was with Russian help or any other nitpicking? No we didn't.
> Are you kidding me?


could you proof what i said is not real?


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## Krate M

The burden of proof is on the accuser always.Legal burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
_semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit_
Prove it or shut up.


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## j20

kurup said:


> What honesty ??
> 
> Chinese still like to believe their lunar mission was their own effort .
> 
> While it is clear that mission was a joint effort with ESA .
> 
> Your launch vehicles were designed with help of USA .
> 
> Your manned mission in which the crew capsule and even space suits were direct soviet copies with technology provided by Russian .
> 
> Honesty my @ss .


全球化的今天，大部分高科技项目都有国际合作的可能
可是
“你们的运载火箭是美国人帮助设计？”
我一定是醉了
The globalization of today, most high-tech projects have internationalcooperation is possible

But
Your launch vehicles were designed with help of USA ？
I must have been drunk.

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## kurup

j20 said:


> 全球化的今天，大部分高科技项目都有国际合作的可能
> 可是
> “你们的运载火箭是美国人帮助设计？”
> 我一定是醉了
> The globalization of today, most high-tech projects have internationalcooperation is possible
> 
> But
> Your launch vehicles were designed with help of USA ？
> I must have been drunk.



Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States


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## Keel

kurup said:


> Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States



Old report
We did not deny some help from our Russian/Soviet Union friends esp in the early stage of our development
We are the only major country which are banned of access of high end space/military etc tech in the world 
Let's not deny this fact and move on.

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## axisofevil

Keel said:


> Indians have the access to foreign technologies. Their more powerful rocket engines are given immense help from the Russians. Also India would not have reached the Mars orbit without the assistance from NASA.
> 
> European space agency, Japan and S Korea etc also have these advantages over us.
> 
> We are very much a lone soul in space but solidly progressing on our own path - building a space industry literally most by ourselves, confidently.
> 
> What a proud moment to cheer for





Stop drinking the koolaid. Russia has assisted China significantly with its Space programs. Don;t kid yourself....


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## Keel

axisofevil said:


> Stop drinking the koolaid. Russia has assisted China significantly with its Space programs. Don;t kid yourself....



Let the Russians speak
We credit the Russians / Soviet Union when due without hesitation
If your space program, despite relying on great assistance from other countries, is behind, way behind us then accept this. 
There is no way that you can gift our accomplished space achievements to other country (-ies)

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## axisofevil

Keel said:


> Let the Russians speak
> We credit the Russians / Soviet Union when due without hesitation
> If your space program, despite relying on great assistance from other countries, is behind, way behind us then accept this.
> There is no way that you can gift our accomplished space achievements to other country (-ies)





What do you think other countries have given India? Scraps? We had embargoes, tech denials, MTCR, etc. Russia cooperated with China's missile on a far different scale than India. 


We are behind for a number of reason, lack of intelligence is not one!


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## Keel

axisofevil said:


> What do you think other countries have given India? Scraps? We had embargoes, tech denials, MTCR, etc. Russia cooperated with China's missile on a far different scale than India.
> 
> We are behind for a number of reason, lack of intelligence is not one!


ttt

I dont think so.
As I have repeated time and again we are thankful for Russia / Soviet Union's help but they are viewing us as competitors since our split while India maintains a much more cordial relationship with them (Russia) in terms of tech exchange like your recent co-operaions in development of many military hardwares etc; and also with America etc
You may be having some sources of intellectual persons who are better than third or 4th tier countries but the pool is far less than the likes of China, Russia, Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia and America

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## Krate M

The main reason China is ahead is due to really focused communist political will.
This is shown in the no matter what, get technology even by spying and getting Russian scientists, high budget and human resources and focus on programs of national importance.

Our focus had been diluted and the coalition governments and their priorities have been in populist policies.
The weak kneed diplomatic relations with other nations flowed from it.
Even in space program the funding especially for 2nd launchpad and gslv program has been inconsistent. That will change now.

Please don't think we don't have brains etc, the reason why Asian people have excelled the world over due to the quest for knowledge and academic excellence, that is a fact.

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## kurup

Keel said:


> Old report
> We did not deny some help from our Russian/Soviet Union friends esp in the early stage of our development
> We are the only major country which are banned of access of high end space/military etc tech in the world
> Let's not deny this fact and move on.



But Chinese were bragging in first few pages how chinese single handedly developed their space program ... 

This news report talks about assistance from US in your long march rocket after 90s ...... not in any early stage .

You are not the only country to faced bans ...... India , Iran , ....... the list goes on .



Keel said:


> Let the Russians speak
> We credit the Russians / Soviet Union when due without hesitation
> If your space program, despite relying on great assistance from other countries, is behind, way behind us then accept this.
> There is no way that you can gift our accomplished space achievements to other country (-ies)



If you look at the data our space program actually got less assistance than even yours ..... 

You got help from the likes of Soviet/Russians , US .... While ours were blacklisted by US in 90s .

We are not way behind you , just a little behind you ..... thanks to the endless assistance provided to you by others .

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

ULAN BATOR, Oct. 30 -- Chinese, Russian and Mongolian deputy foreign ministers pledged on Thursday to boost trilateral cooperation and exchanges of views to maintain the strategic relations among the three countries at a high level.

Delegates led by Mongolian Deputy Foreign Minister D. Gankhuyag, his Chinese counterpart Cheng Guoping and his Russian counterpart I. V. Morgulov participated in the first deputy foreign minister-level consultative meeting of Mongolia, Russian Federation and People's Republic of China, held in Mongolian capital city of Ulan Bator.

During the meeting, the deputy ministers exchanged views on boosting bilateral relations and trilateral cooperation as well as on organizing the next high-level meeting among the three heads of state.

The three parties agreed to develop and boost trilateral cooperation and exchanges of views in various sectors including trade, economy, transportation, infrastructure construction, mining, tourism, humanitarian work and environmental protection.

Also, the deputy ministers expressed their commitment to rendering supports on the issues concerning each other's sovereignty, security and fundamental interests.
To prepare for the next high-level meeting of the three presidents, scheduled in July, 2015, the second deputy foreign minister-level consultative meeting will be held in next February in Beijing, China, according to the three sides.

China-Russia-Mongolia dialogue eyes closer trilateral relations - People's Daily Online

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## kurup

Keel said:


> ttt
> 
> I dont think so.
> As I have repeated time and again we are thankful for Russia / Soviet Union's help but they are viewing us as competitors since our split while India maintains a much more cordial relationship with them (Russia) in terms of tech exchange like your recent co-operaions in development of many military hardwares etc; and also with America etc
> You may be having some sources of intellectual persons who are better than third or 4th tier countries but the pool is far less than the likes of China, Russia, Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia and America



IF it help you sleep at night and soothe your ego , so be it ....


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## batanee

Yes, Communist china is single, gets technologies thru a huge network of back channel, espionage, hacking, stealing, reverse engineer, copies, No IPR, stc


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> The main reason China is ahead is due to really focused communist political will.
> This is shown in the no matter what, get technology even by spying and getting Russian scientists, high budget and human resources and focus on programs of national importance.
> 
> Our focus had been diluted and the coalition governments and their priorities have been in populist policies.
> The weak kneed diplomatic relations with other nations flowed from it.
> Even in space program the funding especially for 2nd launchpad and gslv program has been inconsistent. That will change now.
> 
> Please don't think we don't have brains etc, the reason why Asian people have excelled the world over due to the quest for knowledge and academic excellence, that is a fact.





kurup said:


> But Chinese were bragging in first few pages how chinese single handedly developed their space program ...
> 
> This news report talks about assistance from US in your long march rocket after 90s ...... not in any early stage .
> 
> You are not the only country to faced bans ...... India , Iran , ....... the list goes on .
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at the data our space program actually got less assistance than even yours .....
> 
> You got help from the likes of Soviet/Russians , US .... While ours were blacklisted by US in 90s .
> 
> We are not way behind you , just a little behind you ..... thanks to the endless assistance provided to you by others .



China bragging? Anything but nearing the enormity of this grand master :

Just to remind you with these two little quotes out of the "Indian Superpower this or that" saga: 

India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - Economic Times
Manmohan keen on making Mumbai a Shanghai - Financial Express

7 years ago India braggers boasted:
India will send astronaut into space by 2015: ISRO chief - The Times of India
Yesterday's announcement - where is the Indian man in space?
India To Launch Unmanned Crew Module In December

This is a fact tha NASA and ESA are either banning or restrictive in their space tech exchane with us. This has been put into law of USA. Is ISRO having these treatment?

Your slighly challenging accomplishment is the recent Mars Mission
In case you need a reminder and let me throw you some embarrassing questions amidst your constrasing vain accusations on China and grandiose bragging for India:
Does India have:
1. a functiong satellite navigation system covering Asia and later the world
2. a moon lander
3. the ability to shoot down a defunct satellite in space
4. a space walk 
5. a better rocket launching success % than China
6. the ability to do manned and unmanned rendezvous and docking of 2 spacecraft in orbit
7. the ability to return and to land manned and unmanned spacecraft on Earth
8, a rocket with bigger payload than China's CZ-3 series (and a CZ-5 soon)
9. a space lab which will be developed into a space station by 2020
10. any Indian living in space in your own life-supporting capsule
11. a spacecraft that can fly further than our Chang'e 2 in space
12, a complete photo mapping of the moon
If you want more embarrassments be my guest.

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## kurup

Keel said:


> This is a fact tha NASA and ESA are either banning or restrictive in their space tech exchane with us. This has been put into law of USA. Is ISRO having these treatment?



How many times I will have to bust your lies .....  .... Don't you have some shame .

Help from USA ..... Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States

Help from ESA ..... Helping China to the Moon / Operations / Our Activities / ESA



> Your slighly challenging accomplishment is the recent Mars Mission
> In case you need a reminder and let me throw you some embarrassing questions amidst your constrasing vain accusations on China and grandiose bragging for India:
> Does India have:
> 1. a functiong satellite navigation system covering Asia and later the world
> 2. a moon lander
> 3. the ability to shoot down a defunct satellite in space
> 4. a space walk
> 5. a better rocket launching success % than China
> 6. the ability to do manned and unmanned rendezvous and docking of 2 spacecraft in orbit
> 7. the ability to return and to land manned and unmanned spacecraft on Earth
> 8, a rocket with bigger payload than China's CZ-3 series (and a CZ-5 soon)
> 9. a space lab which will be developed into a space station by 2020
> 10. any Indian living in space in your own life-supporting capsule
> 11. a spacecraft that can fly further than our Chang'e 2 in space
> 12, a complete photo mapping of the moon
> If you want more embarrassments be my guest.



Embarrassment ..... my foot .

Moon mission with help of ESA , Man missed with help of Russia , Rocket success rate because US helped .

Links provided above will attest to what I wrote .

What is chinese in any of these ...... except the boasting .....

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## Krate M

Keel said:


> Your slighly challenging accomplishment is the recent Mars Mission
> 
> Does India have:
> 1. a functiong satellite navigation system covering Asia and later the world
> 2. a moon lander
> 3. the ability to shoot down a defunct satellite in space
> 4. a space walk
> 5. a better rocket launching success % than China
> 6. the ability to do manned and unmanned rendezvous and docking of 2 spacecraft in orbit
> 7. the ability to return and to land manned and unmanned spacecraft on Earth
> 8, a rocket with bigger payload than China's CZ-3 series (and a CZ-5 soon)
> 9. a space lab which will be developed into a space station by 2020
> 10. any Indian living in space in your own life-supporting capsule
> 11. a spacecraft that can fly further than our Chang'e 2 in space
> 12, a complete photo mapping of the moon



That is what I was saying,* so why is there so much heartburn over our puny little achievement *by Chinese posters? Why are you guys considering us your compitetors?

BTW
1 is work in progress, dont let the regional thing fool you, it will be expanded later.
So is 7 going to be tested in this December, SRE was unmanned Space Capsule Recovery Experiment II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2 is a work in progress too.
11. Doesn't Mangalyaan count?
12. We did that too. Remember Chandrayaan?
Working on 5 with PSLV's reliablity.



> This is a fact tha NASA and ESA are either banning or restrictive in their space tech exchane with us. This has been put into law of USA. Is ISRO having these treatment?



Press Releases 2011 | Embassy of the United States
*U.S. Government removes Indian organizations from ‘Entity List’*
*January 25, 2011*
NEW DELHI - The U.S. Government on Monday amended its U.S. Export Administration Regulations by removing all remaining Space and Defense-related Indian entities from the U.S. Department of Commerce’s ‘Entity List’. This is a momentous step forward in U.S. implementation of the export control policy reforms announced by President Barack Obama during his November 2010 visit to India.
In a January 24 Federal Notice, the U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) announced the removal of the following nine Indian space and defense-related organizations from the Entity List:

Armament Research and Development Establishment (DRDO)
Defense Research and Development Lab (DRDO)
Hyderabad Missile Research and Development Complex (DRDO)
Solid State Physics Laboratory (DRDO)
*Liquid Propulsion Systems Center (ISRO)*
*Solid Propellant Space Booster Plant (SPROB) (ISRO)*
*Sriharikota Space Center (ISRO)*
*Vikram Sarabhai Space Center (ISRO)*
Bharat Dynamics Limited
So till 2011 yes they were banned. And no we didnt copy things from them, but you guys are the true masters in that.


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## Keel

Krate M said:


> That is what I was saying,* so why is there so much heartburn over our puny little achievement *by Chinese posters? Why are you guys considering us your compitetors?
> 
> BTW
> 1 is work in progress, dont let the regional thing fool you, it will be expanded later.
> So is 7 going to be tested in this December, SRE was unmanned Space Capsule Recovery Experiment II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 2 is a work in progress too.
> 11. Doesn't Mangalyaan count?
> 12. we did that too.
> Working on 5 with PSLV's reliablity.
> 
> 
> 
> Press Releases 2011 | Embassy of the United States
> *U.S. Government removes Indian organizations from ‘Entity List’*
> *January 25, 2011*
> NEW DELHI - The U.S. Government on Monday amended its U.S. Export Administration Regulations by removing all remaining Space and Defense-related Indian entities from the U.S. Department of Commerce’s ‘Entity List’. This is a momentous step forward in U.S. implementation of the export control policy reforms announced by President Barack Obama during his November 2010 visit to India.
> In a January 24 Federal Notice, the U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) announced the removal of the following nine Indian space and defense-related organizations from the Entity List:
> 
> Armament Research and Development Establishment (DRDO)
> Defense Research and Development Lab (DRDO)
> Hyderabad Missile Research and Development Complex (DRDO)
> Solid State Physics Laboratory (DRDO)
> *Liquid Propulsion Systems Center (ISRO)*
> *Solid Propellant Space Booster Plant (SPROB) (ISRO)*
> *Sriharikota Space Center (ISRO)*
> *Vikram Sarabhai Space Center (ISRO)*
> Bharat Dynamics Limited
> So till 2011 yes they were banned. And no we didnt copy things from them, but you guys are the true masters in that.



you delusionals do know what puny means
In comparison to Indian's work + bragging ( always future tense + numerous delays)
You have just one puny feat so far in Mars mission with NASA's help -
We have at least a dozen of achievement untouched by Indians 
We "puny" then Indian - nano sized hahaha

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## Krate M

Keel said:


> you delusionals do know what puny means
> In comparison to Indian's work + bragging ( always future tense + numerous delays)
> You have just one puny feat so far in Mars mission with NASA's help -
> We have at least a dozen of achievement untouched by Indians
> We "puny" then Indian - nano sized hahaha


I already mentioned 5 of them out of dozen, please read my post above. We are aware of our current status, we are working on GSLVs.
If it is puny, so why is it so jarring to you guys? And why do you guys get upset when we mention similar help given to you by Russia, EU and NASA?
So if we are competitors and delusional, isnt it good for your guys?


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## SrNair

Keel said:


> China bragging? Anything but nearing the enormity of this grand master :
> 
> Just to remind you with these two little quotes out of the "Indian Superpower this or that" saga:
> 
> India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - Economic Times
> Manmohan keen on making Mumbai a Shanghai - Financial Express
> 
> 7 years ago India braggers boasted:
> India will send astronaut into space by 2015: ISRO chief - The Times of India
> Yesterday's announcement - where is the Indian man in space?
> India To Launch Unmanned Crew Module In December
> 
> This is a fact tha NASA and ESA are either banning or restrictive in their space tech exchane with us. This has been put into law of USA. Is ISRO having these treatment?
> 
> Your slighly challenging accomplishment is the recent Mars Mission
> In case you need a reminder and let me throw you some embarrassing questions amidst your constrasing vain accusations on China and grandiose bragging for India:
> Does India have:
> 1. a functiong satellite navigation system covering Asia and later the world
> 2. a moon lander
> 3. the ability to shoot down a defunct satellite in space
> 4. a space walk
> 5. a better rocket launching success % than China
> 6. the ability to do manned and unmanned rendezvous and docking of 2 spacecraft in orbit
> 7. the ability to return and to land manned and unmanned spacecraft on Earth
> 8, a rocket with bigger payload than China's CZ-3 series (and a CZ-5 soon)
> 9. a space lab which will be developed into a space station by 2020
> 10. any Indian living in space in your own life-supporting capsule
> 11. a spacecraft that can fly further than our Chang'e 2 in space
> 12, a complete photo mapping of the moon
> If you want more embarrassments be my guest.



Really ???
What the hell you know about the treatment we got from the West after 1974 tests?
You know nothing .and you have absolutely zero knowledge.Our govt dont interested in spying like so called developed nation with ghost cities and unreliable consumer goods.

A few years you CCP declared that you will send human in to mars before 2020 what about its current status?

Now you asked some ignorant questions.
1.We are nearing to a satellite navigation system called IRNSS and we already send 3 satellites and it will complete within half of 2015 .We can cover entire SA ,Middle east ,China and Indian Ocean.We can expand it if we want.But current this is what we needed.

2. We are already in that direction.If all things go verywell you can see an Indian moon lander in 2016.
3.we have the capability to shoot a satellite but unlike self proclaimed Superpower PRC own space agency our ISRO is completely against the use of the space for direct military purpose.
So its is DRDO responsibility and talks are going on there.
For points 4 and 10 we are testing a GSLV MK3.
5.Our PSLV have 98% success rate.What about your vehicles?
6.Surely we have the ability but like I said our objectives are claearlt different than self proclaimed Superpower PRC.points 8 and 9 also like that.
10.We are testing a life support sysyem within next 45 days .
11.Mangalyann or Mars Orbiter Mission is already travelled 400 millions km .What was Change 2 record.?
12.We ahave different objectives than self proclaimed supepowa PRC.


Now I am asking some doubts.
not arrogant questions.
Do you have technology to send a space craft to another planet?
Do you have course correction tech?
Can you send a crsft to Mars with mere 74million$?.


Of course China is far ahead than us .
But dont try to spit here so called indigenousity by criticising us.
Human space exploration was already did by US and USSR about 60 years ago When China was in cultural revolution and long march.

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## Keel

Krate M said:


> I already mentioned 5 of them out of dozen, please read my post above. We are aware of our current status, we are working on GSLVs.
> If it is puny, so why is it so jarring to you guys? And why do you guys get upset when we mention similar help given to you by Russia, EU and NASA?
> So if we are competitors and delusional, isnt it good for your guys?



We dont care much about Indians space programme to be frank with you
That's about it 
Your future tenses are overflowing. Delay, long delays are part of your standard procedures
Arent Indians getting tired of those? 

I dont see any point of adding more fuel to your trolling. Bye

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## TaiShang

*Li Keqiang and trans-Eurasian Railroads *
By Heiko Khoo

In the 19th century, steam powered railways were pivotal to the expansion of British and world capitalism. When, in 1850, Karl Marx saw an electric train in a London toyshop he was overjoyed. He told his friend, Wilhelm Liebknecht:

"Now the problem is solved - the consequences are indefinable. In the wake of the economic revolution the political must necessarily follow, for the latter is only the expression of the former."





A China Railways CRH2C (left) and a China Railways CRH3C (right) train in Tianjin.


However, over four decades later Liebknecht bemoaned the fact that there was not a single electric railway line in operation.

Railways were also at the heart of Premier Li Keqiang's recent visit to Europe. High-speed railway investment exposes "the China difference," namely, its capacity to accurately develop and realize its long-term plans for economic investment and growth. In this way China has overtaken the richest capitalist countries in the high-speed rail sector and this network is now larger than the rest of the world combined.

Global interconnectivity has raced ahead of the boundaries and limitations of nation states. Modern communications integrate the international process of design, production and consumption of commodities into an organic whole. The virtual interactions that bind together material production, consumption and distribution, require global logistics*. And a fundamental feature of the development of the productive forces is the conquest of distance and time, which, for the Eurasian landmass, inevitably means the expansion of railways both for freight and human transport.*

The recent world economic crisis has acted as a drag on international railway development because, as world trade suffered, shipping costs fell dramatically. Therefore railroad investments in many countries declined as a consequence of this maritime competition. *However, in contrast, the global economic crisis was the signal for China to expand and accelerate the breadth and depth of its railroad investments, nationally and internationally. *China's accumulated expertise and technical experience has global significance. Its capacity to build high-speed networks rapidly and in adverse conditions is reflected in the sweeping scope of the projects in development and being negotiated.

Plans to develop the interior of China have been combined with expansion of its freight network to Europe. *Trains from Chongqing to Duisburg in Germany, the world's largest inland harbor, have been in operation since April this year and, from Oct. 30, they will also run from Changsha in Hunan. Freight on these routes takes between 12 -16 days compared to 50-60 days by sea*. In this way, developing the central and western areas of China is integrated with developing Eurasian railway networks as the foundation for the New Silk Road.

From the standpoint of private profit-based railway companies and the governments of cash-strapped capitalist countries, visionary railroad infrastructure projects are often considered to be unviable. The World Bank survey, "High Speed Rail: A fast track to economic development?" claimed it is really only viable for medium distance travel. *But this assessment remains very much based on market-logic rather than being farsighted and strategic and it fails to adequately consider societal benefits as an organic whole. *The World Bank report mentions the overall socio-economic benefit of integrating cities only in passing and focuses instead, again and again, on return on investment.

Such an approach neglects the core issues of scientific development planning. For example, nobody denies the general global trend towards urbanization, yet, rather than viewing high-speed rail transport in this light, short-term thinking predominates in economics and politics. In Sub-Saharan Africa for example, the United Nations estimates an urbanization rate of over 60 percent by 2050. So unless there is a planned and continental approach to developing transport infrastructure, Africa will have huge urban populations without the preconditions for sustained overall development. *Earlier this year in Africa Premier Li presented a vision to African leaders of high-speed railways connecting every major city "to boost pan-African communication and development."* And the facts of Sino-African cooperation, between African states and China's state-owned enterprises, confirm the nature of this orientation.

On his recent visit to Russia, *Premier Li signed a memorandum of understanding with President Vladimir Putin to build a Moscow-Kazan high-speed rail line and to connect this to Beijing. When complete, this will slash the time of a Moscow-Beijing train journey from six days to 48 hours, and lay the basis for high-speed rail travel from Beijing to London in 72 hours*. This is an exhilarating prospect and it is deeply symbolic of a newly emerging correlation of geo-politics in which China's role is central.

When in Moscow, Premier Li spoke of the inexhaustible potential for development between China and Russia. This is certainly true. Indeed one of the reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union was the long-term failure to fully exploit the potential of Sino-Soviet cooperation.

Sino-Russian and Sino-German railroad development is also important from the standpoint of binding German and Russian interests together. This can help to mitigate against inflammatory actions by the United States as its global power wanes. U.S. dominance of sea power make railways an ideal means to overcome China's dependence on vulnerable shipping lanes like the Straits of Malacca; through which most of China's imports pass. So, although there are also plans to build a high-speed railway from Beijing to Washington, it is likely that Sinophobia in Washington will scupper this project. It should be recalled that it was mainly cheap Chinese labor that built the First Transcontinental Railroad, linking the U.S. railway network from the East coast to the Pacific in the 1860s. China's state-owned railway companies have surpassed the railway infrastructure of world capitalism. This reveals that despite all the critics, China's system of public ownership and planning remains fundamentally healthy and vibrant.

_The writer is a columnist with China.org.cn. For more information please visit: Opinion - China.org.cn_

@Raphael , @senheiser , @Chinese-Dragon , @Edison Chen , @Keel ,@cirr

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## LeveragedBuyout

Even when I disagree with an article, I often find enjoyment in reading it, because it gives me the opportunity to learn new perspectives. Bypassing the anti-American slant of the article, some assertions were unclear to me, perhaps you can help.



TaiShang said:


> The recent world economic crisis has acted as a drag on international railway development because, as world trade suffered, shipping costs fell dramatically.



But later in the article:


TaiShang said:


> But this assessment remains very much based on market-logic rather than being farsighted and strategic and it fails to adequately consider societal benefits as an organic whole.



Edited for clarity: If rail is to be valued beyond the economic potential, how does the author explain the decline in railway development?



TaiShang said:


> *Trains from Chongqing to Duisburg in Germany, the world's largest inland harbor, have been in operation since April this year and, from Oct. 30, they will also run from Changsha in Hunan. Freight on these routes takes between 12 -16 days compared to 50-60 days by sea*.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Premier Li signed a memorandum of understanding with President Vladimir Putin to build a Moscow-Kazan high-speed rail line and to connect this to Beijing. When complete, this will slash the time of a Moscow-Beijing train journey from six days to 48 hours, and lay the basis for high-speed rail travel from Beijing to London in 72 hours*.



Awe-inspiring feat of engineering and willpower. Simply incredible.



TaiShang said:


> From the standpoint of private profit-based railway companies and the governments of cash-strapped capitalist countries, visionary railroad infrastructure projects are often considered to be unviable. The World Bank survey, "High Speed Rail: A fast track to economic development?" claimed it is really only viable for medium distance travel. *But this assessment remains very much based on market-logic rather than being farsighted and strategic and it fails to adequately consider societal benefits as an organic whole. *The World Bank report mentions the overall socio-economic benefit of integrating cities only in passing and focuses instead, again and again, on return on investment.
> 
> Such an approach neglects the core issues of scientific development planning. For example, nobody denies the general global trend towards urbanization, yet, rather than viewing high-speed rail transport in this light, short-term thinking predominates in economics and politics. In Sub-Saharan Africa for example, the United Nations estimates an urbanization rate of over 60 percent by 2050. So unless there is a planned and continental approach to developing transport infrastructure, Africa will have huge urban populations without the preconditions for sustained overall development. *Earlier this year in Africa Premier Li presented a vision to African leaders of high-speed railways connecting every major city "to boost pan-African communication and development."* And the facts of Sino-African cooperation, between African states and China's state-owned enterprises, confirm the nature of this orientation.



Highways are not sufficient for Africa's development? Why must it be rail?



TaiShang said:


> When in Moscow, Premier Li spoke of the inexhaustible potential for development between China and Russia. This is certainly true. Indeed one of the reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union was the long-term failure to fully exploit the potential of Sino-Soviet cooperation.



This is the first time I've read this assertion. Do you have any studies I could read about this?



TaiShang said:


> So, although there are also plans to build a high-speed railway from Beijing to Washington, it is likely that Sinophobia in Washington will scupper this project.



This is staggeringly ambitious, and again, the first I've heard of this. What does such a project look like, will an undersea tunnel be constructed? Do you have any articles I could read about the planning behind this?

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## cirr

PM Li Keqiang is now China's No.1 salesman for HSR、nuclear plants and computer servers。

He should be paid 1% of the value of every contract he brings to the country。

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## INDIC

I don't believe HSR link with Europe will work, as flights will still be cheaper.


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## Keel

I wish the trans Europe-China link can be successful with the start of thawing ice in Russia, Turkey etc where we are going to leave our footprints there

The HSR is a great idea offering an excellent alternatives and comfort to travel by sea and air. 

Keep going

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## cirr

For me，HSR travel is infinitely better than flight（unless you fly on 1st class）within a distance of up to 1500km。

Flying economic class is a poor man‘s solution to long-distance travel。

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## JSCh

Obviously it work for China

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## TaiShang

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Bypassing the anti-American slant of the article



There is nothing anti-American in the article. If upholding China's interests is considered anti-US, put me down on the list. At the top, if possible. 



LeveragedBuyout said:


> If rail is to be valued beyond the economic potential, how does the author explain the decline in railway development?



Economic/fiscal conditions many countries have been facing since the financial crisis. China, on the other hand, has initiated its rail development program in the midst of it.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> Awe-inspiring feat of engineering and willpower. Simply incredible



Not really. There are precedents already in terms of terrain hardships, engine/cabin/car requirements etc; the length by itself is just a number.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> Highways are not sufficient for Africa's development? Why must it be rail?



Highways may not be sufficient. By rail, you can haul large quantity of material/goods at a minimum cost that you would have to pay if you had mobilized an equal number of 16 wheelers.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> This is the first time I've read this assertion. Do you have any studies I could read about this?



I have to check. 



LeveragedBuyout said:


> This is staggeringly ambitious, and again, the first I've heard of this. What does such a project look like, will an undersea tunnel be constructed? Do you have any articles I could read about the planning behind this?



Have not come across anything on this. I personally believe it is neither likely nor feasible.


cirr said:


> For me，HSR travel is infinitely better than flight（unless you fly on 1st class）within a distance of up to 1500km。
> 
> Flying economic class is a poor man‘s solution to long-distance travel。



I agree. I took long distance travel in the US and, although it is considerably slow when compared to the one in China, it was nonetheless fine.



JSCh said:


>



Amazing info-graph!

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## LeveragedBuyout

TaiShang said:


> There is nothing anti-American in the article. If upholding China's interests is considered anti-US, put me down on the list. At the top, if possible.




I did not make this assertion in regards to China's interests, I made them in reference to the anti-American claims in the final paragraph:

Sino-Russian and Sino-German railroad development is also important from the standpoint of binding German and Russian interests together. *This can help to mitigate against inflammatory actions by the United States as its global power wanes*. U.S. dominance of sea power make railways an ideal means to overcome China's dependence on vulnerable shipping lanes like the Straits of Malacca; through which most of China's imports pass. So, although there are also plans to build a high-speed railway from Beijing to Washington, *it is likely that Sinophobia in Washington will scupper this project*. 

Source: Li Keqiang and trans-Eurasian Railroads

If one convinces oneself that one's counterpart is unrelentingly hostile, even in the absence of evidence, it's not hard to see how conflict becomes more likely. The author didn't substantiate either of the bolded statements. It is these anti-American statements which make the article have an "anti-American slant," as I said.

Predicting an undefined "inflammatory action" by the US against China, Russia, or Germany at some undefined point in the future is simple demonization, or in this specific case, anti-Americanism. If the author is referring to Crimea, then rail will not stop Germany's sanctions against Russia any more than it would stop America's sanctions against Russia.

Considering that neither of us had heard of the Beijing-Washington rail plan, it is reasonable to assume that the plan is, at best, merely an idea at the moment. To then pre-emptively lay the blame for the project's failure on Washington, at such a premature stage, is not reasonable, and indeed, anti-American. We agree that the project is nothing more than fantasy at this point, so why blame "Sinophobia in Washington"?

Nevertheless, if you agree with these ill-defined and unsubstantiated claims, I'll be happy to put you down as anti-American.


----------



## Lux de Veritas

TaiShang said:


> *Li Keqiang and trans-Eurasian Railroads *
> By Heiko Khoo
> 
> In the 19th century, steam powered railways were pivotal to the expansion of British and world capitalism. When, in 1850, Karl Marx saw an electric train in a London toyshop he was overjoyed. He told his friend, Wilhelm Liebknecht:
> 
> "Now the problem is solved - the consequences are indefinable. In the wake of the economic revolution the political must necessarily follow, for the latter is only the expression of the former."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A China Railways CRH2C (left) and a China Railways CRH3C (right) train in Tianjin.
> 
> 
> However, over four decades later Liebknecht bemoaned the fact that there was not a single electric railway line in operation.
> 
> Railways were also at the heart of Premier Li Keqiang's recent visit to Europe. High-speed railway investment exposes "the China difference," namely, its capacity to accurately develop and realize its long-term plans for economic investment and growth. In this way China has overtaken the richest capitalist countries in the high-speed rail sector and this network is now larger than the rest of the world combined.
> 
> Global interconnectivity has raced ahead of the boundaries and limitations of nation states. Modern communications integrate the international process of design, production and consumption of commodities into an organic whole. The virtual interactions that bind together material production, consumption and distribution, require global logistics*. And a fundamental feature of the development of the productive forces is the conquest of distance and time, which, for the Eurasian landmass, inevitably means the expansion of railways both for freight and human transport.*
> 
> The recent world economic crisis has acted as a drag on international railway development because, as world trade suffered, shipping costs fell dramatically. Therefore railroad investments in many countries declined as a consequence of this maritime competition. *However, in contrast, the global economic crisis was the signal for China to expand and accelerate the breadth and depth of its railroad investments, nationally and internationally. *China's accumulated expertise and technical experience has global significance. Its capacity to build high-speed networks rapidly and in adverse conditions is reflected in the sweeping scope of the projects in development and being negotiated.
> 
> Plans to develop the interior of China have been combined with expansion of its freight network to Europe. *Trains from Chongqing to Duisburg in Germany, the world's largest inland harbor, have been in operation since April this year and, from Oct. 30, they will also run from Changsha in Hunan. Freight on these routes takes between 12 -16 days compared to 50-60 days by sea*. In this way, developing the central and western areas of China is integrated with developing Eurasian railway networks as the foundation for the New Silk Road.
> 
> From the standpoint of private profit-based railway companies and the governments of cash-strapped capitalist countries, visionary railroad infrastructure projects are often considered to be unviable. The World Bank survey, "High Speed Rail: A fast track to economic development?" claimed it is really only viable for medium distance travel. *But this assessment remains very much based on market-logic rather than being farsighted and strategic and it fails to adequately consider societal benefits as an organic whole. *The World Bank report mentions the overall socio-economic benefit of integrating cities only in passing and focuses instead, again and again, on return on investment.
> 
> Such an approach neglects the core issues of scientific development planning. For example, nobody denies the general global trend towards urbanization, yet, rather than viewing high-speed rail transport in this light, short-term thinking predominates in economics and politics. In Sub-Saharan Africa for example, the United Nations estimates an urbanization rate of over 60 percent by 2050. So unless there is a planned and continental approach to developing transport infrastructure, Africa will have huge urban populations without the preconditions for sustained overall development. *Earlier this year in Africa Premier Li presented a vision to African leaders of high-speed railways connecting every major city "to boost pan-African communication and development."* And the facts of Sino-African cooperation, between African states and China's state-owned enterprises, confirm the nature of this orientation.
> 
> On his recent visit to Russia, *Premier Li signed a memorandum of understanding with President Vladimir Putin to build a Moscow-Kazan high-speed rail line and to connect this to Beijing. When complete, this will slash the time of a Moscow-Beijing train journey from six days to 48 hours, and lay the basis for high-speed rail travel from Beijing to London in 72 hours*. This is an exhilarating prospect and it is deeply symbolic of a newly emerging correlation of geo-politics in which China's role is central.
> 
> When in Moscow, Premier Li spoke of the inexhaustible potential for development between China and Russia. This is certainly true. Indeed one of the reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union was the long-term failure to fully exploit the potential of Sino-Soviet cooperation.
> 
> Sino-Russian and Sino-German railroad development is also important from the standpoint of binding German and Russian interests together. This can help to mitigate against inflammatory actions by the United States as its global power wanes. U.S. dominance of sea power make railways an ideal means to overcome China's dependence on vulnerable shipping lanes like the Straits of Malacca; through which most of China's imports pass. So, although there are also plans to build a high-speed railway from Beijing to Washington, it is likely that Sinophobia in Washington will scupper this project. It should be recalled that it was mainly cheap Chinese labor that built the First Transcontinental Railroad, linking the U.S. railway network from the East coast to the Pacific in the 1860s. China's state-owned railway companies have surpassed the railway infrastructure of world capitalism. This reveals that despite all the critics, China's system of public ownership and planning remains fundamentally healthy and vibrant.
> 
> _The writer is a columnist with China.org.cn. For more information please visit: Opinion - China.org.cn_
> 
> @Raphael , @senheiser , @Chinese-Dragon , @Edison Chen , @Keel ,@cirr





LeveragedBuyout said:


> I did not make this assertion in regards to China's interests, I made them in reference to the anti-American claims in the final paragraph:
> 
> Sino-Russian and Sino-German railroad development is also important from the standpoint of binding German and Russian interests together. *This can help to mitigate against inflammatory actions by the United States as its global power wanes*. U.S. dominance of sea power make railways an ideal means to overcome China's dependence on vulnerable shipping lanes like the Straits of Malacca; through which most of China's imports pass. So, although there are also plans to build a high-speed railway from Beijing to Washington, *it is likely that Sinophobia in Washington will scupper this project*.
> 
> Source: Li Keqiang and trans-Eurasian Railroads
> 
> If one convinces oneself that one's counterpart is unrelentingly hostile, even in the absence of evidence, it's not hard to see how conflict becomes more likely. The author didn't substantiate either of the bolded statements. It is these anti-American statements which make the article have an "anti-American slant," as I said.
> 
> Predicting an undefined "inflammatory action" by the US against China, Russia, or Germany at some undefined point in the future is simple demonization, or in this specific case, anti-Americanism. If the author is referring to Crimea, then rail will not stop Germany's sanctions against Russia any more than it would stop America's sanctions against Russia.
> 
> Considering that neither of us had heard of the Beijing-Washington rail plan, it is reasonable to assume that the plan is, at best, merely an idea at the moment. To then pre-emptively lay the blame for the project's failure on Washington, at such a premature stage, is not reasonable, and indeed, anti-American. We agree that the project is nothing more than fantasy at this point, so why blame "Sinophobia in Washington"?
> 
> Nevertheless, if you agree with these ill-defined and unsubstantiated claims, I'll be happy to put you down as anti-American.





JSCh said:


> Obviously it work for China





cirr said:


> For me，HSR travel is infinitely better than flight（unless you fly on 1st class）within a distance of up to 1500km。
> 
> Flying economic class is a poor man‘s solution to long-distance travel。



Li Keqiang now gets the limelight. Who enables this? This guy below in the prison -- Liu Zhijun.


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## TaiShang

LeveragedBuyout said:


> If one convinces oneself that one's counterpart is unrelentingly hostile, even in the absence of evidence, it's not hard to see how conflict becomes more likely.



It is not a conviction. It is empirically-verified, contemporary reality -- that the US is unrelentingly hostile.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> The author didn't substantiate either of the bolded statements.



Because the main theme of the article is not US hostilities toward China. It is only mentioned within the context of a contemporary development. The issue, nonetheless, has been (and being) mentioned in other places plenty of time and he does not have to put there "the pivot," "spying," "interference in domestic affairs" etc. etc., to convince the readership. It is just a waste of space.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> It is these anti-American statements which make the article have an "anti-American slant," as I said.



Yet, none of them anti-American, since "American" refers to a people. Let say, it is anti-US (as a state-person) in the sense that it upholds China's interests over others' interests; separating regime from its people is always more convenient. Being anti-US is not being anti-American.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> Predicting an undefined "inflammatory action" by the US against China, Russia, or Germany at some undefined point in the future is simple demonization, or in this specific case, anti-Americanism.



The author does not "predict." He does not use the word. He refers to a reality on the ground. We all know how the US is pressing certain European countries for a more hard-line stance toward Russia. And indeed, supporting Ukrainian separatism and thus putting a dent on Russia-Europe relations is more than "inflammatory."



LeveragedBuyout said:


> Considering that neither of us had heard of the Beijing-Washington rail plan, it is reasonable to assume that the plan is, at best, merely an idea at the moment.



I guess, what he means by Beijing-Washington rail is not one across the Pacific, but, as an extension of the Beijing-Moscow rail, and across the Bering.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> Nevertheless, if you agree with these ill-defined and unsubstantiated claims, I'll be happy to put you down as anti-American.



If your definition of anti-American is pro-China, yes, go ahead. But, still, I would wish to separate people from their governments which may or may not directly reflect their mandate. Hence, my pro-China stand is probably seen as anti-US by yourself, as I would decline to be anti-anybody. That is the reason, in the above post, I did not use the term, anti-American, which I consider a form of racism.

Even though I do not agree on many point with their regime, I respect the American people and wish them all the best.

The term "anti-Americanism" is more like an escape-clause in the hands of some US chauvinists.

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## Jlaw

Keel said:


> I wish the trans Europe-China link can be successful with the start of thawing ice in Russia, Turkey etc where we are going to leave our footprints there
> 
> The HSR is a great idea offering an excellent alternatives and comfort to travel by sea and air.
> 
> Keep going


Truth. i can tell you in this world there are many people afraid of flying. who knows, in the future these hsr will even be faster thus saving time.

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## LeveragedBuyout

Thank you for the explanation.



TaiShang said:


> Yet, none of them anti-American, since "American" refers to a people. Let say, it is anti-US (as a state-person) in the sense that it upholds China's interests over others' interests; separating regime from its people is always more convenient. Being anti-US is not being anti-American.
> 
> If your definition of anti-American is pro-China, yes, go ahead. But, still, I would wish to separate people from their governments which may or may not directly reflect their mandate. Hence, my pro-China stand is probably seen as anti-US by yourself, as I would decline to be anti-anybody. That is the reason, in the above post, I did not use the term, anti-American, which I consider a form of racism.
> 
> Even though I do not agree on many point with their regime, I respect the American people and wish them all the best.
> 
> The term "anti-Americanism" is more like an escape-clause in the hands of some US chauvinists.



I am beginning to understand our disagreement better. Your distinction between "anti-US" and "anti-American" is not one that is recognized by native speakers of American English, i.e. we treat them as interchangeable. I agree that you are anti-US government, but not necessarily anti-American people.

In addition, and I am not asking this to provoke, but it's a sincere question: are you a Marxist?

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## Aepsilons

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Even when I disagree with an article, I often find enjoyment in reading it, because it gives me the opportunity to learn new perspectives. Bypassing the anti-American slant of the article, some assertions were unclear to me, perhaps you can help.
> 
> 
> 
> But later in the article:
> 
> 
> Edited for clarity: If rail is to be valued beyond the economic potential, how does the author explain the decline in railway development?
> 
> 
> 
> Awe-inspiring feat of engineering and willpower. Simply incredible.
> 
> 
> 
> Highways are not sufficient for Africa's development? Why must it be rail?
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I've read this assertion. Do you have any studies I could read about this?
> 
> 
> 
> This is staggeringly ambitious, and again, the first I've heard of this. What does such a project look like, will an undersea tunnel be constructed? Do you have any articles I could read about the planning behind this?




The question that comes to my mind is: is this even economically feasible?


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## LeveragedBuyout

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The question that comes to my mind is: is this even economically feasible?



Certainly not, but as we are told by the author of the article (and reminded by Chinese users on PDF), the strength of China's state owned enterprises is that they are not bound by the Western requirement of profitability. Personally, I am quite happy to have Chinese taxpayers subsidize railway development across the world, so I would love to see a Beijing-Washington railway built.

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## Aepsilons

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Certainly not, but as we are told by the author of the article (and reminded by Chinese users on PDF), the strength of China's state owned enterprises is that they are not bound by the Western requirement of profitability. Personally, I am quite happy to have Chinese taxpayers subsidize railway development across the world, so I would love to see a Beijing-Washington railway built.





I wish them all the best of luck !


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## TaiShang

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Thank you for the explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> I am beginning to understand our disagreement better. Your distinction between "anti-US" and "anti-American" is not one that is recognized by native speakers of American English, i.e. we treat them as interchangeable. I agree that you are anti-US government, but not necessarily anti-American people.
> 
> In addition, and I am not asking this to provoke, but it's a sincere question: are you a Marxist?



If I may add, as to anti-Americanism, which practically impossible, because the US people are not the only Americans, there are a continent-full of people that are Americans by land. One can be possibly an anti-USer, but, that is also racism. Being anti-US, if one ever may call oneself so, is simply a political statement.

As for Marxism, I studies it, and my MA adviser was a prominent class theorist. 

For me, I guess I moved a little bit from classical Marxism in the sense that it does not recognize the state as a liberationist agency. For me, however, the state is the highest political expression and, potentially, ethical.

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## senheiser

JSCh said:


> Obviously it work for China


funny no plans for japan connection with china


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## Keel

Jlaw said:


> Truth. i can tell you in this world there are many people afraid of flying. who knows, in the future these hsr will even be faster thus saving time.



People who are having certain physical conditions cannot travel by planes (not even on domestic flight in China): 

由于飞机飞行高度大，虽有气密座舱，舱内气压仍然比地面低，氧气供应比地面少，因此，患有以下疾病者不宜坐飞机：
1．传染性疾病。如传染性肝炎、活动期肺结核、伤寒等传染性疾病患者，在国家规定的隔离期内不得乘坐飞机。
2．严重心血管、脑血管疾病者特别是曾发作过心肌梗塞症者。
3．较严重的呼吸器官疾病，如哮喘病、慢支气管炎、肺气肿等。
4．严重的胃病患者也不宜坐飞机，以免引起疾病的发作或加重。胃部手术后10天内不能坐飞机，消化道出血患者要在出血停止3周后才能坐飞机。
5．血液疾病患者。如严重贫血患者，难以忍受空中缺氧。研究认为，血红蛋白量水平在50克／升以下者，不宜坐飞机。
6．耳鼻疾病患者。
7．精神病患者。
8．临近产期的孕妇。


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## cnleio

senheiser said:


> funny no plans for japan connection with china


Pity, Japan is a island. 

Far away from China but close to Korea, until they willing to dig subsea tunnel to each other first.



JSCh said:


> Obviously it work for China


Awesome map, I love strong China.

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## welcomeJason

narcon said:


> China's Main Competitor in Space Exploration is India, Not Russia: Researcher | Analysis & Opinion | RIA Novosti
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this photo released by China's Xinhua News Agency, scientists work at the Beijing Aerospace Control Center (BACC) in Beijing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MOSCOW, October 24 (RIA Novosti) - China's principal competitor in space exploration is India, not Russia, researcher at the Russian Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Vasily Kashin told RIA Novosti on Friday.
> 
> *"China and India are two new space powers. They have vast resources and consider their space programs from the national prestige perspective ," the expert said.*
> 
> He added that China and India are following Russian and US footsteps in space exploration.
> 
> "China's more developed space-rocket industry and immense resources have let it take the lead in the two countries' space race," Kashin argued.
> 
> Despite being behind China in space exploration, India has a significant advantage, according to the researcher.
> 
> "China is still under rigid restrictions on any form of cooperation with the United States, including on the purchase of components … The Chinese are forced to do many things on their own and they sometimes cannot produce components of a required level. The Indians have less resources, but they are in good relations with everyone. India can cooperate with both Russia and the West, adopting their best technologies," Kashin concluded.
> 
> Earlier on Friday, China launched an experimental spacecraft to the moon orbit, which is to return to Earth in eight days. The spacecraft is to test out re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere for the planned 2017 Chang'e-5 lunar mission.


You are wrong.China's competitors are USA and EU.

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## bolo

welcomeJason said:


> You are wrong.China's competitor is USA and EU.


Indian god Krishna created the first spaceship 11,000 years ago.

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## welcomeJason

bolo said:


> Indian god Krishna created the first spaceship 11,000 years ago.


Krishna came from outer space which means they are aggressors~??

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## bolo

welcomeJason said:


> Krishna came from outer space which means they are aggressors~??


Maybe. Krishna created the western god.

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## TaiShang

cnleio said:


> Awesome map, I love strong China.



Simply but nicely and deeply said


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## kurup



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## FairAndUnbiased

Krate M said:


> The main reason China is ahead is due to really focused communist political will.
> This is shown in the no matter what, get technology even by spying and getting Russian scientists, high budget and human resources and focus on programs of national importance.
> 
> Our focus had been diluted and the coalition governments and their priorities have been in populist policies.
> The weak kneed diplomatic relations with other nations flowed from it.
> Even in space program the funding especially for 2nd launchpad and gslv program has been inconsistent. That will change now.
> 
> Please don't think we don't have brains etc, the reason why Asian people have excelled the world over due to the quest for knowledge and academic excellence, that is a fact.



ISRO's funding is higher than CNA's actually, by the official budget, and even the unofficial budget has them at nearly the same funding levels.

List of government space agencies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Keel

FairAndUnbiased said:


> ISRO's funding is higher than CNA's actually, by the official budget, and even the unofficial budget has them at nearly the same funding levels.
> 
> List of government space agencies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



We are achieving a lot more for a lot less (official)


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## liall

Keel said:


> We are achieving a lot more for a lot less (official)



I cant believe that China spends less money on space program than India. You guys have an active Astronaut program and a functioning space lab. This is just impossible. NOPE not buying it.


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## Sanchez

liall said:


> I cant believe that China spends less money on space program than India. You guys have an active Astronaut program and a functioning space lab. This is just impossible. NOPE not buying it.


How could you still be online as you are banned?


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## Keel

liall said:


> I cant believe that China spends less money on space program than India. You guys have an active Astronaut program and a functioning space lab. This is just impossible. NOPE not buying it.



The big difference is Made-in-China vs Import-into-India

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## I am not Jackie Chan

Keel said:


> The big difference is Made-in-China vs Import-into-India

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## HariPrasad

Keel said:


> Also India would not have reached the Mars orbit without the assistance from NASA.





Keel said:


> We are very much a lone soul in space but solidly progressing on our own path




What A Joke?

Everything in Mars Mission was Indian. You guys launched Mars mission with the help of Russian rocket still failed. It is very amusing to see Chinese exposing their knowledge and mindset here.


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## Keel

HariPrasad said:


> What A Joke?
> 
> Everything in Mars Mission was Indian. You guys launched Mars mission with the help of Russian rocket still failed. It is very amusing to see Chinese exposing their knowledge and mindset here.



wow another Indian come here to demonstrate their shallowness
Does your budget cover only your Mars mission? What a joke 
Our Mars mission failed because of we rode on a taxi that had an accident

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## HariPrasad

Keel said:


> Our Mars mission failed because of we ride on a taxi that had an accident




Or your Taxi was not capable?



Keel said:


> Does your budget cover only your Mars mission? What a joke




One more Idiot bring in Budget to hide their failure.


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## Keel

HariPrasad said:


> Or your Taxi was not capable?



how can you interpret it was a taxi Made in China?



> One more *Idiot *bring in Budget to hide their failure.



On yourself 100%

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia agree on military cooperation projects*


Senior Chinese and Russian military officials said on Wednesday that the two countries have reached agreements on a slew of important military cooperation projects during the 17th round of strategic consultation.

Many cooperation projects in critical areas were agreed upon during the current round of consultation, said Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia Valery Gerasimov while meeting with Wang Guanzhong, Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Chinese People's Liberation Army.

Gerasimov expressed the hope that the projects could help enhance mutual trust and substantial cooperation between the two militaries as military ties between Russia and China are a crucial part of strategic cooperation between the two countries.

Speaking on the same occasion, Wang said that the two militaries have implemented the consensus reached by the heads of state of the two countries and witnessed fruitful cooperation in various fields through deepened pragmatic exchanges in recent years.

As the year 2015 marks the 70th anniversary of the victory of the world's anti-Fascist War and will be an important year for the China-Russia military cooperation, China is willing to work with Russia on the implementation of major military cooperation projects to push forward the comprehensive strategic cooperative partnership between the two countries, said Wang.

During the 17th round of strategic consultation, the two sides discussed the current international and regional security situations, regional hot issues as well as the relationship between the two militaries and reached important consensus on major cooperation projects of the next year and the future.

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## Aepsilons

Huan said:


> *Tell you what, give back Outer Manchuria to China first. lol*



What? I thought this was already settled.


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## Brainsucker

Hey Nihonjin san, why you awaken the zombie thread?


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## Aepsilons

Brainsucker said:


> Hey Nihonjin san, why you awaken the zombie thread?



Maybe I'm a zombie, @Brainsucker -sama ! Lol


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## AgentOrange

Here's to further Sino-Russian cooperation down the road. Already, there are talks of a 2nd gas pipeline. And we see increased military and economic cooperation across the board. 

*As Russia Draws Closer to China, U.S. Faces a New Challenge*

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/09/world/vladimir-putin-xi-jinping-form-closer-ties.html?_r=0


By PETER BAKER

NOV. 8, 2014


WASHINGTON — President Obama flies to Beijing on Sunday to renew efforts to refocus American foreign policy toward Asia. But when he lands, he will find the man who has done so much to frustrate him lately, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia. “You are pivoting to Asia,” Russia’s ambassador to Washington said last week, “but we’re already there.”

Mr. Obama is returning to Asia as Russia pulls closer to China, presenting a profound challenge to the United States and Europe. Estranged from the West over Ukraine, Mr. Putin will also be in Beijing this week as he seeks economic and political support, trying to upend the international order by fashioning a coalition to resist what both countries view as American arrogance.

Whether that is more for show than for real has set off a vigorous debate in Washington, where some government officials and international specialists dismiss the prospect of a more meaningful alliance between Russia and China because of the fundamental differences between the countries. But others said the Obama administration should take the threat seriously as Moscow pursues energy, financing and military deals with Beijing.

“We are more and more interested in the region that is next to us in Asia,” said Sergei I. Kislyak, the Russian ambassador to Washington. “They are good partners to us.” He added that a recent natural gas deal between Moscow and Beijing was a taste of the future. “It’s just the beginning,” he said, “and you will see more and more projects between us and China.”

The Russian pivot to China factors into a broader White House-led review of American policy toward Moscow now underway. The review has produced several drafts of a policy to counter what officials call Putinism over the long term while still seeking silos of cooperation, particularly on issues like Iran, terrorism and nuclear nonproliferation.

Though there is not a wide divergence of opinion inside the administration over how to view Mr. Putin, there is a debate about what to do. The review has pitted officials favoring more engagement against those favoring more containment, according to people involved. The main question is how the Ukraine dispute should define the relationship and affect other areas where the two countries share interests.

Within the administration, Mr. Putin’s efforts at accord with China are seen as a jab at Washington, but one fraught with a complicated history, mutual distrust and underlying economic disparity that ultimately makes it untenable. “They’ll use each other,” said one government official, who declined to be identified discussing the internal review. “And when one of them gets tired or sees a better deal, they’ll take it.”

But others warned against underestimating the potential. “There’s just so much evidence the relationship is getting stronger,” said Gilbert Rozman, a Princeton scholar who published a book, “The Sino-Russian Challenge to the World Order,” this year and an article in Foreign Affairs on the subject last month. The rapprochement began before Ukraine, he added, but now there is a “sense that there’s no turning back. They’re moving toward China.”

Continue reading the main story
Graham Allison, director of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard, said Mr. Putin seemed to have forged a strong bond with President Xi Jinping of China. “There’s a personal chemistry you can see,” he said. “They like each other, and they can relate to each other. They talk with each other with a candor and a level of cooperation they don’t find with other partners.”

Mr. Xi made Russia his first foreign destination after taking office and attended the Sochi Olympics as Mr. Obama and European leaders were boycotting them. Each has cracked down on dissent at home, and they share a view of the United States as a meddling imperialist power whose mismanagement of the world economic order was exposed by the 2008 financial crisis.

While past Chinese leaders looked askance at the Kremlin leader, “Xi is not appalled by Putin,” said Douglas Paal, an Asia expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

The twin crises in Ukraine and Hong Kong have encouraged the alignment. State television in Russia portrays democracy protests in Hong Kong as an American-inspired effort to undermine China, much as it depicted the protests in Kiev as an American effort to peel away a Russian ally from Moscow. Chinese media present Mr. Putin as a strong leader standing up to foreign intervention.

In May, as the United States and Europe were imposing sanctions on Moscow over Ukraine, Mr. Putin sealed a $400 billion, 30-year deal providing natural gas to China. Last month, China’s premier, Li Keqiang, signed a package of 38 deals in Moscow, including a currency swap and tax treaty. Last week, Mr. Putin said the two countries had reached an understanding for another major gas deal.

The two had already bolstered economic ties. China surpassed Germany in 2010 to become Russia’s largest trading partner, with nearly $90 billion in trade last year, a figure surging this year as business with Europe shrinks.

“The campaign of economic sanctions against Russia and political pressure is alienating Russia from the West and pushing it closer to China,” said Sergei Rogov, director of Moscow’s Institute for U.S. and Canada Studies. “China is perceived in Russia as a substitute for Western credits and Western technology.”

Masha Lipman, a visiting fellow with the European Council on Foreign Relations, said that the pivot to China “is taken very seriously” in Moscow and that “commentators regard this shift as a given, a done and irreversible deal.”

Yet talk of a Russian-Chinese alignment has persisted for decades without becoming fully realized, given deep cultural differences and a Cold War competition for leadership of the communist world. And Beijing has long opposed separatist movements, making it uncomfortable with Moscow’s support for pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

In Moscow, some fear Russia, out of weakness, has made itself a junior partner to a rising China. While China is now Russia’s largest trading partner, Russia is only China’s 10th largest — and the United States remains its biggest. Moreover, big Russian state companies can make deals, but China will not replace Europe for most corporations and banks, as there is no developed commercial bond market for foreigners in China akin to Eurobonds.

John Beyrle, a former American ambassador to Moscow, said discussions with Russian business leaders revealed nervousness, a sense that the turn to China was out of necessity as loans and investment from the West dry up. “One of them said that dependence on China worries the Russian elite much more than dependence on the West,” he said.

Lilia Shevtsova, a Moscow-based analyst with the Brookings Institution, said: “The pivot is artificial. And the pivot is to the disadvantage of Russia.”

Mr. Obama and Mr. Putin will cross paths twice this week, first in Beijing at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and then in Brisbane, Australia, at a meeting of the Group of 20 nations. Mr. Obama hopes to advance a Trans-Pacific Partnership trade pact. Russia and China are acutely aware they have been excluded from the proposed bloc, and Mr. Putin says it would be ineffective without them.

Such issues only fuel Russia’s move to China, Russian officials said. If the United States and Europe are less reliable, long-term partners, then China looks more attractive. “We trust them,” said Mr. Kislyak, “and we hope that China equally trusts us.”

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## Huan

I am interested in what the next U.S. president in 2016 will do to drive them apart.


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## Chinese-Dragon

America has dropped the ball on this one.

The three major poles of the last Cold War were America, Russia, and China.

The same will still be true in the future, since all other countries are either in one of the above "camps", or are neutral and trying to stay out of it. So it's basically a triangle, same as before.

If America convinced Russia to align with them, then it wouldn't matter even if China's GDP eventually becomes double that of America, we would still be effectively contained and could never rise to the level of being a true peer competitor of America. The USA + Russia would be so formidable that nothing could even hope to challenge such an alignment.

But America screwed up by sanctioning Russia. The Russians will not forget these sanctions, not for a hundred years.

America won't be able to align with China against Russia either, since America sees China as their long-term main strategic competitor. The China-Russia alignment is now the greatest achievement of the Obama Administration.

Currently, America is powerful enough to balance against both China + Russia combined. But the same will not be true in the future, since China's relative power is increasing exponentially, and America's relative power is declining. This process will only continue as time goes on.

This is the biggest missed opportunity for America, and it is an opportunity they have cut off themselves.

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## terranMarine

The US thought it could take down USSR by bankrupting them with arms/space race, which it did. The US saw how Japan was becoming a dominating economic power, again the Americans devised a plan which would prevent that from happening. With USSR getting poorer and less influential, Japan "threat" neutralized, China became the next target. As a result the US made sure the weapon embargo was placed on China. Ironically this pushed China and Russia to reconciliation as the latter was more than willing to supply China weaponry for obvious reason. 

Thanks to American hostilities towards Russia, we are enjoying more cooperation than ever in recent times. Aligning with America is pretty much a foolish mentality as she will try to target Russia and China once the occasion arises. A multipolar world order is only possible as long both China and Russia stick together to challenge the western hegemony.

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## cirr

*Putin: Russia, China close to reaching 2nd mega gas deal*

Published time: November 07, 2014 10:48






Russian President Vladimir Putin (RIA Novosti / Alexey Druzhinin)

Moscow and Beijing have agreed many of the aspects of a second gas pipeline to China, the so-called western route. It’s in additional to the eastern route which has already broken ground after a $400 billion deal was clinched in May.

_“We have reached an understanding in principle concerning the opening of the western route,”_ the Russian President told media ahead of his visit on November 9-11 to the Asia Pacific Economic Conference (APEC).

_“We have already agreed on many technical and commercial aspects of this project laying a good basis for reaching final arrangements,”_ the Russian President added.

In May, China and Russia signed a $400 billion deal to construct the Power of Siberia pipeline, which will annually deliver 38 billion cubic meters (bcm) of gas to China. The Power of Siberia, the eastern route, will connect Russia’s Kovykta and Chaynda fields with China, where recoverable resources are estimated at about 3 trillion cubic meters.

The opening of the western route, the Altai, would link Western China and Russia and supply an additional 30 bcm of gas, nearly doubling the gas deal reached in May.

READ MORE: Russia and China may agree on Western gas pipeline in 2015 – Medvedev

When the Altai route is complete China will become Russia’s biggest gas customer. The ability to supply China with 68 bcm of gas annually surpasses the 40 bcm it supplies Germany each year.






Energy cooperation is a two-way street, which Russia has demonstrated by offering Chinese companies a stake in large energy fields. In September, Russia’s largest oil company, Rosneft, offered China a share in its second-largest oil field, Vankor in the Krasnoyarsk region in Eastern Siberia. The area is estimated to have reserves of 520 million metric tons of oil and 95 billion cubic meters of natural gas.

_“We have built and put into operation an oil pipeline from Russia to China and concluded agreements providing for the increase in crude oil supplies,”_ Putin said.

China will participate in joint exploration and extraction of crude oil and coal in Russia, and work on a jointly funded oil refinery in China has started.

Joining Putin’s delegation are government officials and business representatives, along with Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who will reportedly meet with his US counterpart John Kerry.

Last year’s conference was held in the far eastern Russian city of Vladivostok, which is far closer to China than it is to Moscow or St. Petersburg.

*Chasing the Dragon*
Moscow made a pivot towards the expanding world’s second largest economy, and largest by some economic indicators, after the US and EU imposed sanctions on Russia over the events in Ukraine earlier this year.

_“Strengthening ties with China is a foreign policy priority of Russia. Today, our relations have reached the highest level of comprehensive equitable trust-based partnership and strategic interaction in their entire history. We are well aware that such collaboration is extremely important both for Russia and China,”_ the President said.

Overall trade between Russia and China increased by 3.4 per cent in the first half of 2014, reaching$59.1 billion, and the two neighbors expect annual trade to reach $200 billion by 2020. China is Russia’s second-biggest trading partner after the EU.

The central banks of the two countries have signed a three-year ruble-yuan currency swap dealworth up to $25 billion, in order to boost trade using national currencies and lessen dependence on the dollar and euro.

Another financial leap for the two countries was the establishment of the BRICS Development Bank along with Brazil, India, and South Africa. The fund will be worth $100 billion and there is also a reserve currency pool worth another $100 billion.

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## cirr

For interersting graphs：

Putin: *Russia*, *China close to reaching 2nd mega gas deal*

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## Keel

Huan said:


> I am interested in what the next U.S. president in 2016 will do to drive them apart.



Presidential change wont do it no matter how many times you have the elections
The only thing that can change is for the USA to be less offensive and hostile towards China also Russia

During the last year, the US has sent over 500 sorties encroaching on or beyond Chinese borders
Are these friendly gestures for China not to be defensive?

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## gambit

Another 'Soviet-China' alliance that will defeat the US. I read this back in the '80s. 

And please do not even bother to correct me by saying this is Russia...

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## JSCh

Russia Draws Closer to China, what else would anyone expect?

Russia could use all the friends she can get. And I don't see that changing any time soon. Even if all the sanctions are lifted(fat chance).



Huan said:


> I am interested in what the next U.S. president in 2016 will do to drive them apart.


Next president?!!! The Russia would not wait that long to seal this.

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## kyle Chiang

AgentOrange said:


> The other thing the American arms embargo did was force China to develop a robust domestic arms industry. Without the embargo, China would still be very much addicted to foreign weapons, without the ability to even produce artillery shells (like that craphole India). So I'm sure China is thankful to the US in that regard.


Thanks to American arms and aerospace industry embargo a lot.We has built up our own complete set of defense system initially and are ready to built our own space station.
Our new domestic carrier is under building and domestic electromagnetic catapult maybe will be used.
Actually we tend to cooperate with America,but US president don't like it.If you don't want to make friends to one,he will surely make friends with others.
Plz don't laugh at India,their huge purchasing power will benefit global weapons market.
Wish America and China will have good relations,too.Economic development is our first policy.US and China need more cooperation and trust.BTW,when America says "China is dangerous,you should keep distance to China",US-China bilateral trade volume has reached 521 billion dollars in 2013.Uncle Sam is really a smart guy..

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## xyxmt

Chinese-Dragon said:


> America has dropped the ball on this one.
> 
> *The three major poles of the last Cold War were America, Russia, and China.*
> 
> The same will still be true in the future, since all other countries are either in one of the above "camps", or are neutral and trying to stay out of it. So it's basically a triangle, same as before.
> 
> If America convinced Russia to align with them, then it wouldn't matter even if China's GDP eventually becomes double that of America, we would still be effectively contained and could never rise to the level of being a true peer competitor of America. The USA + Russia would be so formidable that nothing could even hope to challenge such an alignment.
> 
> But America screwed up by sanctioning Russia. The Russians will not forget these sanctions, not for a hundred years.
> 
> America won't be able to align with China against Russia either, since America sees China as their long-term main strategic competitor. The China-Russia alignment is now the greatest achievement of the Obama Administration.
> 
> Currently, America is powerful enough to balance against both China + Russia combined. But the same will not be true in the future, since China's relative power is increasing exponentially, and America's relative power is declining. This process will only continue as time goes on.
> 
> This is the biggest missed opportunity for America, and it is an opportunity they have cut off themselves.




you forgot India, India + US

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## xyxmt

US doesn't care what China or Russian does, US aint scared of neither of them seperately or togather. the only thing that scares US is if any country threatens the dollar dominance. In my opinion all this from US is a reaction for Russia trying to setup trade with China in their local currency. US have no love for Ukraine and If Russian dont touch dollar dominance then they take Ukraine and even Poland back

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## AgentOrange

gambit said:


> Another 'Soviet-China' alliance that will defeat the US. I read this back in the '80s.
> 
> And please do not even bother to correct me by saying this is Russia...



This isn't about defeating the US. No one wants to "defeat" the US, least of all China, as economically interconnected as they are. This is about creating a multipolar world. No matter how much you try to misrepresent the situation with your strawman arguments, it's happening.

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## AgentOrange

Keel said:


> With embargo we progress slower
> Without, just faster
> 
> 
> 
> You're just another delusional
> Indians have their own set of name-calling
> Ours are ancient and elegant
> Dog meat are eaten all over the world including Indians though I am not in favour of the habit
> The "locusts" smear campaign were sponsored by low-live separatists and trouble makers
> Do you want some in your newspaper?



Without the embargo, any "progress" China makes would be as hollow as the "Indigenous content" in any of India's defense projects.


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## haviZsultan

I am waiting for the time China outshines the US. Then the fun can begin. US has treated us Pakistanis like rubbish for several years. The pressler amendment, harassment of Pakistani leaning individuals in there.

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## Beast

AgentOrange said:


> The other thing the American arms embargo did was force China to develop a robust domestic arms industry. Without the embargo, China would still be very much addicted to foreign weapons, without the ability to even produce artillery shells (like that craphole India). So I'm sure China is thankful to the US in that regard.


In fact, I do not agree with you. Sanction did indeed delay our military modernisation. We could have 2-3 modern high thrust turbofan develop by China if not for the delay instead of one taihang engine. China always seek self sufficient ever since the Sino-Soviet split in the early 1960.

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## Sanchez

gambit said:


> Another 'Soviet-China' alliance that will defeat the US. I read this back in the '80s.
> 
> And please do not even bother to correct me by saying this is Russia...



It at least did a blow to "US-Vietnamese" alliance back in the 1970s.


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## Keel

AgentOrange said:


> Without the embargo, any "progress" China makes would be as hollow as the "Indigenous content" in any of India's defense projects.



No dont ever compare us with the Indians, Never please 

There are 3 points that I can easily back up my claim that China will never heavily rely on imports like Indians even if there is no embargo

1. Our commercial planes in development stage (ARJ 21-700 is reaching final certification) despite they have substantial supports from foreign system suppliers; and the engines are from GE. Absolutely no embargo at all. However, we are still working on our own engine like, the CJ-1000 series
2. Our suppliers' origins are from the USA and NATO. It is not difficult to understand how these people can hold you by the neck if you dont comply with their rules
3. We are more capable than anyone expects 

So I reaffiem my statement:
Embargo can slow our progress down;
Without embargo - faster progress.


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## AgentOrange

Keel said:


> No dont ever compare us with the Indians, Never please
> 
> There are 3 points that I can easily back up my claim that China will never heavily rely on imports like Indians even if there is no embargo
> 
> 1. Our commercial planes in development stage (ARJ 21-700 is reaching final certification) despite they have substantial supports from foreign system suppliers; and the engines are from GE. However, we are still working on our own engine like, the CJ-1000 series
> 2. Our suppliers' origins are from the USA and NATO. It is not difficult to understand how these people can hold you by the neck if you dont comply with their rules
> 3. We are more capable than anyone expects
> 
> So I reaffiem my statement:
> Embargo can slow our progress down;
> Without embargo - faster progress.



Well explained. I concede the point to you then bro.

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## Keel

AgentOrange said:


> Well explained. I concede the point to you then bro.



Thank you bro. Another brilliant mind to meet! My pleasure!


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## Galad

It`s just one of the many multi-bilion deals signed between Russia and China in last few years.Glad strategic parthnership between both countries becoming stronger and stronger(thank you sanctions ).There are talks already between India and Russia for possible gas pipeline-probably Altai one will be extended to India at later date if agreement is done deal.True it will take few years at least to build the pipeline at its full length and capacity but it is expecpected for such big projects.Meantime lots of money will be invested,manifacturing sector will have lots of orders,many new jobs will be created- a win-win situation for all counties involved.And generally speaking it is wise move by Russia to look east.West is getting increasingly irrelevant and out of touch with reality with each passing year.

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## mike2000

Keel said:


> No dont ever compare us with the Indians, Never please
> 
> There are 3 points that I can easily back up my claim that China will never heavily rely on imports like Indians even if there is no embargo
> 
> 1. Our commercial planes in development stage (ARJ 21-700 is reaching final certification) despite they have substantial supports from foreign system suppliers; and the engines are from GE. Absolutely no embargo at all. However, we are still working on our own engine like, the CJ-1000 series
> 2. Our suppliers' origins are from the USA and NATO. It is not difficult to understand how these people can hold you by the neck if you dont comply with their rules
> 3. We are more capable than anyone expects
> 
> So I reaffiem my statement:
> Embargo can slow our progress down;
> Without embargo - faster progress.




Maybe, but not entirely true, If say we had allowed you into our Galileo navigation system(in which you wanted to particpate and invested over $200millions invane.lol) which unfortunately our officals refused you access to its critical systems, i dont think you will have went on with your own navigation system to the advanced point in which you are today, same with ISS, if the U.S had allowed you access to ISS, then you wouldnt be building one of your own today.


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## Keel

mike2000 said:


> Maybe, but not entirely true, If say we had allowed you into our Galileo navigation system(in which you wanted to particpate and invested over $200millions invane.lol) which unfortunately our officals refused you access to its critical systems, i dont think you will have went on with your own navigation system to the advanced point in which you are today, same with ISS, if the U.S had allowed you access to ISS, then you wouldnt be building one of your own today.



We are strong believers in self-reliance and independence
Even if we were allowed into Galileo, we would still determine to make one on our own
Why should we stick our necks out waiting to be strangled at any time?
Same applies to ISS. 

Similar situations can be found in many NATO members who can have access to GPS then why Galilio
A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush

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## mike2000

Keel said:


> We are strong believers in self-reliance and independence
> Even if we were allowed into Galileo, we would still determine to make one on our own
> Why should we stick our necks out waiting to be strangled at any time?
> Same applies to ISS.
> 
> Similar situations can be found in many NATO members who can have access to GPS then why Galilio
> A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush



Well i disagree with you on this two. i dont think you would have been building yours if we had let you access to ours(which i think we should have done). Anyway we can agree to disagree on this one.


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## Keel

mike2000 said:


> Well i disagree with you on this two. *i dont think you would have been building yours if we had let you access to ours(which i think we should have done). *Anyway we can agree to disagree on this one.



Still I need to disagree by stating our positions again
When we ask the following questions in the light of the absence of our own satellite system for guidance:
1. what will our weapons be when we are invaded?
2. what will our space advancement be when taking a venture to the moon and return back earth?
3. what will our transportation system be for ships, airplane, trucks?
4. are we capable of making one on our own?
5. do we have the money to do that?

So with or without access to Galileo, we are making one on our own FOR SURE particularly when we have to look over our shoulders constantly for possible attacks by wolve packs


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## Aepsilons

terranMarine said:


> The US saw how Japan was becoming a dominating economic power, again the Americans devised a plan which would prevent that from happening.



*WRONG*. The Plaza Accord was not the reason why Japan's economy underperformed during the late 1980s and early 1990s. The housing market bubble had much to do with this. We've debated this time and time again and @LeveragedBuyout and I agreed already that the Plaza Accord had nothing to do with this. You are more than welcome to purvey through the Japan Economy Thread, of course. You can avail of the information there.

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## LeveragedBuyout

Chinese-Dragon said:


> America has dropped the ball on this one.
> 
> The three major poles of the last Cold War were America, Russia, and China.
> 
> The same will still be true in the future, since all other countries are either in one of the above "camps", or are neutral and trying to stay out of it. So it's basically a triangle, same as before.



Russia is now subordinate to China, and becoming less relevant every day. Its main value is its natural resources, which it must sell to sustain itself, but otherwise, China exceeds Russia in almost every way.

I must agree with @xyxmt that India will become another pole at some point in the future. India has made it clear throughout its history (primarily NAM) that it will not play a supporting role to the US in the same way that Russia will play junior partner to China. Still, India is more likely to agree with the US on issues of the international order than it is with China, given our shared democracy and other colonial heritage.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> *WRONG*. The Plaza Accord was not the reason why Japan's economy underperformed during the late 1980s and early 1990s. The housing market bubble had much to do with this. We've debated this time and time again and @LeveragedBuyout and I agreed already that the Plaza Accord had nothing to do with this. You are more than welcome to purvey through the Japan Economy Thread, of course. You can avail of the information there.



@Nihonjin1051 is correct, this myth of Plaza destroying Japan is so incorrect that it can only be considered yet another conspiracy theory. @terranMarine , please see the following posts:

Chinese Economy News & Updates | Page 282

Chinese Economy News & Updates | Page 282

Chinese Economy News & Updates | Page 283

I might write a single, comprehensive post about this in the future to finally put this myth in the grave, but I'm a bit burned out at the moment, so please make do with the posts above. Thank you.

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## Aepsilons

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Russia is now subordinate to China, and becoming less relevant every day. Its main value is its natural resources, which it must sell to sustain itself, but otherwise, China exceeds Russia in almost every way.
> 
> I must agree with @xyxmt that India will become another pole at some point in the future. India has made it clear throughout its history (primarily NAM) that it will not play a supporting role to the US in the same way that Russia will play junior partner to China. Still, India is more likely to agree with the US on issues of the international order than it is with China, given our shared democracy and other colonial heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> @Nihonjin1051 is correct, this myth of Plaza destroying Japan is so incorrect that it can only be considered yet another conspiracy theory. @terranMarine , please see the following posts:
> 
> Chinese Economy News & Updates | Page 282
> 
> Chinese Economy News & Updates | Page 282
> 
> Chinese Economy News & Updates | Page 283
> 
> I might write a single, comprehensive post about this in the future to finally put this myth in the grave, but I'm a bit burned out at the moment, so please make do with the posts above. Thank you.



Thanks , Sir, I hope to read your posts soon. I've missed you on the board , hoping you're doing well. Regards as always.

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## mike2000

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Russia is now subordinate to China, and becoming less relevant every day. Its main value is its natural resources, which it must sell to sustain itself, but otherwise, China exceeds Russia in almost every way.
> 
> I must agree with @xyxmt that India will become another pole at some point in the future. India has made it clear throughout its history (primarily NAM) that it will not play a supporting role to the US in the same way that Russia will play junior partner to China. Still, India is more likely to agree with the US on issues of the international order than it is with China, *given our shared democracy *and other colonial heritage.



I agree with everything you said Leveragedbuyout, except the point i highlighted. Interests/allainces/partnerships have nothing to do with shared democracy, far from it. If not India wouldnt have been close/an ally to the dictatorial Soviet Union and even today still considers authocratic Russia as some india members here claim(naively though) as their 'best friend'.lool If China and India didnt have a border dispute in the first place(though i admit it was something we cause, when we seized part of tibet and incorporated it into India) then they would have been strong allies as well for a long time now, since its mainly the border dispute that keeps them apart and causes distrust. Countries are only after their own interests, not values. Thats how its been in the past and thats how it will keep being in future.

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## LeveragedBuyout

mike2000 said:


> I agree with everything you said Leveragedbuyout, except the point i highlighted. Interests/allainces/partnerships have nothing to do with shared democracy, far from it. If not India wouldnt have been close/an ally to the dictatorial Soviet Union and even today still considers authocratic Russia as some india members here claim(naively though) as their 'best friend'.lool If China and India didnt have a border dispute in the first place(though i admit it was something we cause, when we seized part of tibet and incorporated it into India) then they would have been strong allies as well for a long time now, since its mainly the border dispute that keeps them apart and causes distrust. Countries are only after their own interests, not values. Thats how its been in the past and thats how it will keep being in future.



Generally speaking, I agree with you, but democracy in a friend or ally is very important to the US. We have autocratic allies. But please consider the opposite side of the equation: if China ever implements democracy, it is possible that we will see yet another realignment in the world, where the US rushes to establish warm relations with China at the expense of other nations. So much has changed in the past 30 years that I would not dismiss this as a possibility.

For now, though, it is India that is the democratic power in the region, and we recognize that quality, and the problems it entails, in our own dysfunctional polity. That's why we can afford to wait for a friendly administration (BJP) to come into office in order to improve ties (our own Democratic Party is just as responsible for poor relations with certain other countries, and its passing would enable improved ties). 

In China at the moment, there is no prospect of waiting for the administration to change, because the CCP is always succeeded by the CCP; but even China knows that history moves in unexpected ways, so we should not count on the CCP maintaining a monopoly forever. 

And now we've come full-circle. Yes, nations protect their interests, not values. But both interests and values change, and like the turning of the gears of a clock, we might find ourselves in the future interlocked with different partners depending on the configuration of those interests and values.

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## mike2000

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Generally speaking, I agree with you, but democracy in a friend or ally is very important to the US. We have autocratic allies. But please consider the opposite side of the equation: if China ever implements democracy, it is possible that we will see yet another realignment in the world, where the US rushes to establish warm relations with China at the expense of other nations. So much has changed in the past 30 years that I would not dismiss this as a possibility.
> 
> For now, though, it is India that is the democratic power in the region, and we recognize that quality, and the problems it entails, in our own dysfunctional polity. That's why we can afford to wait for a friendly administration (BJP) to come into office in order to improve ties (our own Democratic Party is just as responsible for poor relations with certain other countries, and its passing would enable improved ties).
> 
> In China at the moment, there is no prospect of waiting for the administration to change, because the CCP is always succeeded by the CCP; but even China knows that history moves in unexpected ways, so we should not count on the CCP maintaining a monopoly forever.
> 
> And now we've come full-circle. Yes, nations protect their interests, not values. But both interests and values change, and like the turning of the gears of a clock, we might find ourselves in the future interlocked with different partners depending on the configuration of those interests and values.



NOPE i still disagree with you on this. The U.S is after first and foremost its own interests(like evry country should be by the way, so im not saying its a bad thing). I still dont understand how you think the U.S values democrazy and considers it as one of its main pillars for alliances.loool That couldnt be further from the truth. Had it been the case we wouldnt have been supporting the worse dictatorial regimes from Egypt under mubarak and now Sissycracy to the House of saud which is the worse dictatorial country out there(bar north Korea) and many others in the region.

Even if China were to be a democracy today, we will still look for other ways /excuse to contain/reduce its influence. It has nothing to do about Democracy or whatever, but everything to do with interests/world supremacy. I dont blame the U.S though, since it has been so for centuries , an established power will always try and prevent an upcoming one from surpassing it or sharing power with it irrespective of the country, theres is nothing wrong in that in my opinion. if im used to be first in my class for a long time, do you think i will be happy if another student to start challenging me/take my position? Nope i will do everything i can to remain ahead of him , doesnt matter if he's my friend or not. What i will want is to remain ahead /keep my position by all means, doesnt matter whether the means/method i use is moral orimmoral, as far as my objectives are met, even if it means cheating. At the end of the day the end Justifies the means(just like the U.S.S.R found out.).

My country did the same thing with Germnay when they were 'rising' which led to two devastating world wars(which ironically brought down our empire and funny enough unlike what most people think , we both kind of lost the war to be honest.lol), same with how we and france used to battle each other in the 18th centuries for colonies/supremacy world wide, we even clash a few times. Same with other powers earlier like Spain, Portugal, etc, they all batteled for world supremacy/colonies/domination. Political system had nothing to do with it, world Supremacy did. The hell i remember Japan(despite having U.S troops on its soil till today) still used to be labelled by our media in the west/U,S day and night as the Yellow peril from the east ready to take over the world when they were also 'rising' and buying up properties in the U.S/west.lol Its not like Japan wasn't a democracy, there will always be reasons/excuses an establish power will use to undermine an upcoming one, doesnt matter if its democractic or not(i do confess that if its authocratic/dictatorial then its more easier for the U.S/west to demonize/use excuses to contain it though, than if it was democratic.) . Lets give it 15 or 20 years from now(well if im still alive.lol) when India is strong/big/powerful enough, then lets see how the U.S attitudes/policy towards India will change(not for the better though). Indians on here mark my words, lets wait for 2 decades from now and see(if we are still all alive.lol), well thast if you are not 'allied' with the U.S by then.

No hard feelings though my friend leveraged buyout you are still one of the members on here which i respect/admire and learn things i didnt know from. But we gotta disagree on some things when i dont think its right, thats how i am. So cheers mon ami.

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## LeveragedBuyout

mike2000 said:


> NOPE i still disagree with you on this. The U.S is after first and foremost its own interests(like evry country should be by the way, so im not saying its a bad thing). I still dont understand how you think the U.S values democrazy and considers it as one of its main pillars for alliances.loool That couldnt be further from the truth. Had it been the case we wouldnt have been supporting the worse dictatorial regimes from Egypt under mubarak and now Sissycracy to the House of saud which is the worse dictatorial country out there(bar north Korea) and many others in the region.
> 
> Even if China were to be a democracy today, we will still look for other ways /excuse to contain/reduce its influence. It has nothing to do about Democracy or whatever, but everything to do with interests/world supremacy. I dont blame the U.S though, since it has been so for centuries , an established power will always try and prevent an upcoming one from surpassing it or sharing power with it irrespective of the country, theres is nothing wrong in that in my opinion. if im used to be first in my class for a long time, do you think i will be happy if another student to start challenging me/take my position? Nope i will do everything i can to remain ahead of him , doesnt matter if he's my friend or not. What i will want is to remain ahead /keep my position.
> 
> My country did the same thing with Germnay when they were 'rising' which led to two devastating world wars(which ironically broguht our empire down and both of us kind of lost the war to be honest.lol), same with how we and france used to battle each other in the 18th centuries for colonies/supremacy world wide, we even clash a few times. Political system had nothing to do with it, world Supremacy did. The hell i remember Japan(despite having U.S troops on its soil till today) still used to be labelled the yellow peril from the east ready to take over the world when they were also 'rising' and buying up properties in the U.S/west.lol Its not like Japan wasnt a democracy, there will always be reasons an establish power will use to undermine an upcoming one, doesnt matter if its democractic or not(i do confess that if its authocratic/dictatorial then its more easier for the U.S/west to demonize/use excuses to contain it though, than if it was democratic.) . Lets give it 15 or 20 years from now(well if im still alive.lol) when India is strong/big/powerful enough, then lets see how the U.S attitudes/policy towards India will change(not for the better though). Indians on here mark my words, lets wait for 2 decades from now and see(if are all still alive.lol)
> 
> No hard feelings though my friend leveraged buyout you are still one of the members on here which i respect/admire and learn things i didnt know from. But we gotta disagree on some things when i dont think its right, thats how i am. So cheers mon ami.



Excuse the semi-essay below, but you provided a great topic for me to address.

I respect your perspective on this, but as you say, we remain in disagreement. We are often castigated by others for this, but the US truly believes itself to be an "exceptional nation," not beholden to the old ways of power politics. I believe I mentioned this in another thread (possibly even to you), but perhaps uniquely in the world, the United States is based on an idea, rather than a Westphalian sense of nation-hood (i.e. based around tribal identity, race, religion, etc.). Our values are universal values, which is why any individual from any background can become American if they accept those values (and this system was in place far before several European countries adopted a similar outlook on immigration). In fact, there is no better demonstration of this in pointing out that only the US and Canada have a _jus soli_ system of citizenship (automatic citizenship if you are born on our soil) among the advanced economies. Most of the countries of the world still have a blood-based citizenship system.

In any case, it is this idea-based identity, and the deliberate decision not to dwell on history when deciding national policy, that enables the US to be so nimble in our geopolitical maneuverings. Asia and Africa's grievance culture has never been present in the US, as demonstrated by our easy reconciliation with Great Britain despite our old colonial relationship; our adoption of Germany and Japan as close allies despite a horrific war between us; and even our reconciliation with Vietnam, despite our less than ideal relationship with them in the past decades. One can imagine other reconciliations in the future.

The UK may never contemplate the kind of pivot that the US could potentially make towards embracing China, but that doesn't preclude its possibility. The UK's vision of "interests" have long been nearly mutually exclusive with "values," (see: The Great Game) whereas the US sees shared values as a clear pathway to shared interests. That is the basis of the often-misunderstood US drive for democracy in the world--not for power, but because we truly believe that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Other countries look upon such declarations with much cynicism, because they have only ever known the cynical game of power politics and pure national interest, so it's understandable that so many would accuse us of having an ulterior motive. But shared values lead to shared interests, and encouraging the convergence of values can also help solidify and anchor the sharing of interests where those shared interests already exist.

And that is the difference between India and China. Both have opposed us: China, explicitly, as a Communist power, and India, implicitly through NAM, as a tool of the USSR (NAM was never as non-aligned as it claimed, let's face reality). But whereas India's democratic system has evolved and strengthened itself, providing an opening for warm relations with the US, China diverged from this path after Tiananmen. Remember that much of the current tensions between the US and China are the result of Tiananmen and our respective reactions to it. 

If Tiananmen had never happened, we might still have a warm relationship (as we had through much of the 1970s and 1980s). But since it did happen, the US could not ignore the democratic yearning demonstrated there (especially when the students and laborers specifically invoked America through their goddess of Liberty). Ever since then, the CCP has viewed democracy as a threat to its rule, and any demonstration of movement towards democracy as an American plot (see the wild claims made by Chinese users here about the Umbrella Movement in HK). And ever since then, the US has been trying to turn the clock back to that moment in time when the spirit of democracy looked like it had a chance of taking hold in China, and we could stand on the same side not only in trade relations, but also in values. It's not difficult to see how time can solve this disagreement, and bring us closer together once more. Many Chinese users here profess hatred of America, or the American system, and yet one should observe how many of them have lived, studied, and worked in this country that they say they hate so much. We will get there, but it will take time. Contrary to what some might think, "what is best for China" and "sharing American values" are not mutually exclusive concepts.

In short, I understand and sympathize with your disagreement on this count, but I disagree that "only permanent interests, no permanent friends" reflects America's actions, identity, or goals.

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## Steve781

It was inevitable in the long run. All the current crisis did was speed it up.


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## mike2000

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Excuse the semi-essay below, but you provided a great topic for me to address.
> 
> I respect your perspective on this, but as you say, we remain in disagreement. We are often castigated by others for this, but the US truly believes itself to be an "exceptional nation," not beholden to the old ways of power politics. I believe I mentioned this in another thread (possibly even to you), but perhaps uniquely in the world, the United States is based on an idea, rather than a Westphalian sense of nation-hood (i.e. based around tribal identity, race, religion, etc.). Our values are universal values, which is why any individual from any background can become American if they accept those values (and this system was in place far before several European countries adopted a similar outlook on immigration). In fact, there is no better demonstration of this in pointing out that only the US and Canada have a _jus soli_ system of citizenship (automatic citizenship if you are born on our soil) among the advanced economies. Most of the countries of the world still have a blood-based citizenship system.
> 
> In any case, it is this idea-based identity, and the deliberate decision not to dwell on history when deciding national policy, that enables the US to be so nimble in our geopolitical maneuverings. Asia and Africa's grievance culture has never been present in the US, as demonstrated by our easy reconciliation with Great Britain despite our old colonial relationship; our adoption of Germany and Japan as close allies despite a horrific war between us; and even our reconciliation with Vietnam, despite our less than ideal relationship with them in the past decades. One can imagine other reconciliations in the future.
> 
> The UK may never contemplate the kind of pivot that the US could potentially make towards embracing China, but that doesn't preclude its possibility. The UK's vision of "interests" have long been nearly mutually exclusive with "values," (see: The Great Game) whereas the US sees shared values as a clear pathway to shared interests. That is the basis of the often-misunderstood US drive for democracy in the world--not for power, but because we truly believe that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Other countries look upon such declarations with much cynicism, because they have only ever known the cynical game of power politics and pure national interest, so it's understandable that so many would accuse us of having an ulterior motive. But shared values lead to shared interests, and encouraging the convergence of values can also help solidify and anchor the sharing of interests where those shared interests already exist.
> 
> And that is the difference between India and China. Both have opposed us: China, explicitly, as a Communist power, and India, implicitly through NAM, as a tool of the USSR (NAM was never as non-aligned as it claimed, let's face reality). But whereas India's democratic system has evolved and strengthened itself, providing an opening for warm relations with the US, China diverged from this path after Tiananmen. Remember that much of the current tensions between the US and China are the result of Tiananmen and our respective reactions to it.
> 
> If Tiananmen had never happened, we might still have a warm relationship (as we had through much of the 1970s and 1980s). But since it did happen, the US could not ignore the democratic yearning demonstrated there (especially when the students and laborers specifically invoked America through their goddess of Liberty). Ever since then, the CCP has viewed democracy as a threat to its rule, and any demonstration of movement towards democracy as an American plot (see the wild claims made by Chinese users here about the Umbrella Movement in HK). And ever since then, the US has been trying to turn the clock back to that moment in time when the spirit of democracy looked like it had a chance of taking hold in China, and we could stand on the same side not only in trade relations, but also in values. It's not difficult to see how time can solve this disagreement, and bring us closer together once more. Many Chinese users here profess hatred of America, or the American system, and yet one should observe how many of them have lived, studied, and worked in this country that they say they hate so much. We will get there, but it will take time. Contrary to what some might think, "what is best for China" and "sharing American values" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
> 
> In short, I understand and sympathize with your disagreement on this count, but I disagree that "only permanent interests, no permanent friends" reflects America's actions, identity, or goals.



no hard feeling bro, i still disagree with your points about the U.S valuing democracy as the one of the main pillars of its alliance system. we will just agree to disagree on this, since i can write several long essays on here to disprove the points you just made but im sure you will still find even more counter points(i know you are quite good in this my man.). So will be better to just call it a day for now on this, since we both seem to be firmly entrenched in our opinions on this point. So lets just leave it here for now my man.

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## TaiShang

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Russia is now subordinate to China, and becoming less relevant every day.



Cheap shot. Russia is in no way subordinate to China. The two are equals. A subordinate country would not pull out a Crimea with zero explicit Chinese support.

You have been repeating the same argument for too long anytime China-Russia reinforce their relationship. Better yet, you may ask Russian members here of their perception @vostok , and @senheiser

You have to bring out empirical evidence to prove that China-Russia partnership is one of a major and minor.

Russia is a major power by itself and we are just thankful to US for "facilitating" the China-Russia strategic alignment which is based on a completely different set of values and norms than the one between the US and its unimportant minions.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> China exceeds Russia in almost every way.



It does not. Besides, what is the relevance really. Exceeding or being exceeded does not make an alliance less equal if either of the two sides do not nurture hegemonic aspirations against the other.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> if China ever implements democracy, it is possible that we will see yet another realignment in the world, where the US rushes to establish warm relations with China at the expense of other nations.



If Saudi Arabia ever implements democracy, I wonder what the US, with the petrodollar gone, would do?

A note to yourself: China will never implement stuff in other people's terms.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> In China at the moment, there is no prospect of waiting for the administration to change, because the CCP is always succeeded by the CCP; but even China knows that history moves in unexpected ways, so we should not count on the CCP maintaining a monopoly forever.



Again, cheap shot. But, the prospects of a right wing warmonger president to assume power in the US is almost given.


*Xi, Putin meet in Beijing, 17 agreements signed*
*November 9, 2014, 1:41 pm*







Putin (left) presented Chinese President Xi Jinping (center) with a Russian smartphone– a Yotaphone-2, with Russian, Chinese and APEC symbols uploaded for the occasion [PPIO]

In a boost to bilateral ties between the two allies, *Russia and China have signed 17 agreements on Sunday after Presidents Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping met in Beijing.*

The deals inked today include an agreement on the delivery of Russian natural gas to China via the western route, securing the world’s top energy user a major source of cleaner fuel. The western route refers to gas supplies to China from Russian fields in West Siberia.

The route to supply gas to China via the western route may be implemented faster than the eastern route, through which Moscow agreed to ship the fuel to its Asian neighbor in May, according to Gazprom’s CEO Alexei Miller.

Putin, during Sunday’s meet, also lauded Russia-China ties as key to maintaining stability in the world.

“Cooperation between Russia and China is extremely important for keeping the world in line with the international law, making it [the world] more stable,” Putin said during his meet with Xi.

Russian state oil giant Rosneft and Chinese oil major CNPC also signed an agreement on Sunday to sell 10 per cent of shares in Rosneft’s subsidiary Vankorneft to China National Oil and Gas Exploration and Development.

Ties between the two allies “represent an irreversible trend” Xi said on Sunday.

*“No matter how the international landscape shifts, we must insist on giving priority to the development of Sino-Russian ties in our diplomatic endeavors, constantly boost political and strategic mutual trust, and keep expanding and deepening comprehensive cooperation,” said the Chinese President.*

*Xi and Putin also agreed to step up cooperation in high-speed rail, technology, aerospace and finance sectors.*

Sunday was Xi’s tenth meeting with Putin since he assumed the office of Chinese presidency in March 2013.

Russia and China also signed agreements on “implementing joint energy investment projects in Arkhangelsk Region, on the joint funding, construction and operation of a hydro power station in the Far East of Russia and on cooperation in the construction of hydro-accumulating power stations,” said a Kremlin statement.

Sberbank of Russia also signed an agreement with the Export-Import Bank of China regarding credit lines and purchasing loans, while VTB Bank signed a cooperation agreement with China’s telecom giant Huawei Technologies.

In Sunday’s meet, Putin noted that bilateral trade turnover went up by 1.3 per cent in 2013. In the first nine months of this year it has increased by 7 per cent as Russia increases it economic engagement with China while battling Western sanctions over the Ukraine crisis.

Putin and Xi also “discussed their respective countries’ positions on the main issues on the agendas for the upcoming APEC and G20 summits” said a Kremlin statement.

*“I would also like to note the importance of cooperation between the People’s Republic of China and the Russian Federation for retaining the world within the international legal framework, for making it more stable and predictable. You and I have done a great deal for this purpose and I am certain we will continue working in this direction,” said Puti*n.

*The two Presidents also announced on Sunday that China and Russia will jointly celebrate the 70th anniversary of the victory of World War II next year.*

Putin is in Beijing to attend the APEC Economic Leaders’ Meeting (AELM) that will be held on Monday and Tuesday and will be attended by world leaders from 21 nations, including US President Barack Obama.

*Obama’s Provocations Pushed China, Russia Closer *
*Special to The BRICS Post *
*November 9, 2014*

The American and Russian presidents have publicly revealed their conflicting visions of future development not only in Europe (where Moscow and Washington continue to lock horns over Ukraine), but in Asia, as well.

*In the buildup to the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit in Beijing, US President Barack Obama made it clear that he had no plans to meet his Russian counterpart.

He went on to say that he also likely won’t meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Brisbane, Australia where both leaders will attend the G20 summit in mid-November.

At the same time, Obama reiterated his support of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a trade deal Washington is negotiating with 11 nations in the region, excluding China and Russia.*

*On the eve of the APEC summit in Beijing, Putin highlighted his opposition to the TPP.*

One does not need to be a genius to understand that plans to build Pacific economic zones without the region’s two biggest powers – Russia and China – are doomed.

“It is clear that the economic influence of the United States and the West in general will inevitably decline in the coming years,” commented the Moscow-based _Expert_ magazine, Russia’s leading weekly specializing in economic analysis.

“But the [Obama] administration and the European Union seem to have chosen the costliest and the most painful way to manage this process,” it went on.







“We’re organising trade relations with countries other than China so that China starts feeling more pressure about meeting basic international standards,” Obama said referring to the TPP in a presidential debate in 2012 [Xinhua]

Indeed, Obama’s stance is a logical continuation of the policy line he made public during his tour of Southeast Asian nations in spring 2014, right before Putin’s visit to Beijing.

*During his visits to Japan and Philippines, Obama promised US support in their disagreements with China.*

This presidential move couldn’t have been more provocative as the verbal bickering betweenChina and Japan over the disputed Diaoyu/Senkaku islands was at its height, and the conflict between Russia and the US over Ukraine was leading to outright civil war there.

*Backfire*

*The result of Obama’s actions in Japan and Philippines produced the opposite effect he had desired, however.*

In May, and most likely under the impression of American hostility, Russia and China inched closer together and signed a landmark gas deal.

According to the agreements signed during Putin’s visit to Beijing that month, Russia is to supply 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas a year to China via a yet to be constructed pipeline named Sila Sibiri (“The Force of Siberia”).

Thanks to this deal, Russia is expected to get $400 billion and to diversify its gas exports, which had been geared to the European markets for over 40 years.

The current Russia-China deal is supposed to be implemented over the course of the next 30 years.

*“Obama’s statements against China and Russia do not reveal a productive approach and reveal his lack of understanding of the region,” s*ays Yuri Tavrovsky, a prominent Russian expert on China and Japan.

*“Few people believe that the US can be a fair and balanced mediator between Tokyo and Beijing, [while] Washington’s bias against China is too obvious,” said Tavrovsky, who in the 1980s also consulted the Central Committee of the Communist party of the Soviet Union on relations with Tokyo and Beijing.*

“Also the United States is showing a lack of subtlety on the issue of China’s wartime losses. Official Chinese figures say 35 million Chinese lost their lives during the Japanese occupation in 1930s and 1940s. This is a huge figure.”

*Similarly, in Russia, relations with the US have soured over Washington’s support for the modern Ukrainian and Baltic nationalists.*

These groups often pose as successors to the Ukrainian and Baltic nationalist movements of the 1940s.

But many of these movements have for decades been tarnished by their collaboration with the German Nazi leader Adolph Hitler.

*During Hitler’s occupation of the Soviet territories between 1941 and 1945, these Ukrainian, Latvian and Estonian nationalists made their “contribution” to the killing of 27 million Soviet citizens, who perished during World War II.*

So, even emotionally – when one considers the casualties and horrors inflicted during that war – Russian and Chinese grievances against the US become similar.







“The Russian-Chinese relations have become a crucial factor in accommodating the foreign policy interests of the two countries in the 21st century, playing a significant role in establishing a just, harmonious and safe world order,” said Putin on Thursday ahead of his Beijing visit [PPIO]


The anti-Beijing and anti-Moscow clique behind Washington’s foreign policy, which became all too apparent in recent years, is pushing not only Russia and China but also other BRICS countries to common protective measures against the US.


*Layering the BRICS*

BRICS’ leaders are planning to meet on the sidelines of the G-20 summit in Brisbane on November 15-16.

*As Putin meets with his BRICS allies, Obama seems to be deliberately isolating himself by refusing to meet the Russian president in Brisbane.*

Analysts note that in Autumn 2013 Obama also refused to have talks with Putin at the G20 summit in St. Petersburg, Russia.

Only a few weeks later, Obama needed Putin’s help in implementing the Russian plan of dismantling Syria’s chemical weapons.

This plan saved Obama from losing face after cancelling the White House strategy to launch airstrikes against Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad’s forces.

BRICS has already established a $100 billion New Development Bank and a $100 billion Contingency Reserve Arrangement, both of which are supposed to provide additional financial protection to members in case of emergency.

For Russia, which is under financial sanctions from the US and the EU, these organizations of financial protection are a source of hope as the Ruble continues its six-month downward spiral.

*China, which is a major contributor to the BRICS projects, is also interested in Russia’s energy reserves.

In this sphere, both countries’ interests converge.*

This is significant for Moscow, which has been hearing for some time the EU’s threat that it will “lessen its dependence” on Russian gas exports.

Besides the controversial American plan of Trans-Pacific cooperation which excludes both of their countries, Russia’s Putin and China’s Xi Jinping are expected to make progress on the plans of an additional pipeline from Russia to China.

The so called Altai pipeline (also called the Western Itinerary) is expected to carry 30 billion cubic meters of gas to China.

The Russian energy minister Alexander Novak said the deal could be finalized by the first half of the year 2015.

A year ago, this plan would have more closely resembled a fantasy.

But it is precisely Washington’s aggressive support of the anti-Russian “revolution” in Ukraine and for anti-Chinese forces in Asia that has transformed this fantastic Russo-Chinese cooperation into a reality.

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## LeveragedBuyout

TaiShang said:


> Cheap shot. Russia is in no way subordinate to China. The two are equals. A subordinate country would not pull out a Crimea with zero explicit Chinese support.
> 
> You have been repeating the same argument for too long anytime China-Russia reinforce their relationship. Better yet, you may ask Russian members here of their perception @vostok , and @senheiser
> 
> You have to bring out empirical evidence to prove that China-Russia partnership is one of a major and minor.
> 
> Russia is a major power by itself and we are just thankful to US for "facilitating" the China-Russia strategic alignment which is based on a completely different set of values and norms than the one between the US and its unimportant minions.



Easy enough. Numbers are for 2013, and the gap is only growing.

*Population*
China: 1,357m
Russia: 143.5m
Ratio: 9.45x

*GDP*
China: $9.2tn
Russia: $2.1tn
Ratio: 4.38x

*Defense Spending (IISS)*
China: $112.2bn
Russia: $68.2bn
Ratio: 1.64x

We've established that Russia is an economic, demographic, and military dwarf compared to China. Now let's establish the "partner" in the "junior partner" claim. Russia's main economic relationship with China is through energy resources:






This is the same relationship that China has with Africa, and I doubt you would consider Africa to be a peer. Indeed, this asymmetrical trade relationship will only get worse for Russia as its defense exports to China decline and its energy exports increase because of the approximately $400bn deal you helpfully highlighted. And China relies on Russian oil for less than 10% of its needs, putting it in a strong position to dictate terms. 

As far as shaping the world order, it is Russia that joined China's SCO, not the other way around.

In short, does Russia need China more than China needs Russia? If yes, that means it is the junior partner. Tell me, other than energy, in what way does China need Russia? It is already an economic superpower. It already has veto power on the UNSC. It has its own self-sufficient defense industry. China has immense leverage over Russia, but I see no symmetrical Russian leverage with China.

That's my case, now please present yours. How are China and Russia equal allies? Please be so kind as to quantify your answer, as I have done.

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## TaiShang

LeveragedBuyout said:


> That's my case, now please present yours. How are China and Russia equal allies? Please be so kind as to quantify your answer, as I have done.



You have quantified nothing, since, from these numbers, one cannot surmise that, unlike how your original post suggested above, China-Russia strategic partnership is one of based on unequal treatment of one side of he other.

What you present here is irrelevant and dry statistics.

By your weird logic, China and Russia cannot be equal partners because their population size does not match.

What is important is policies on the ground and you have to prove that in recent years Russia has given up to Chinese pressure to sign any agreement that was detrimental to its national interests/security in one of or another.

That's what I call proof. Now, save the usual cheap Western rhetoric in the hope of painting China-Russia strategic partnership as unequal.

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## Keel

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Easy enough. Numbers are for 2013, and the gap is only growing.
> 
> *Population*
> China: 1,357m
> Russia: 143.5m
> Ratio: 9.45x
> 
> *GDP*
> China: $9.2tn
> Russia: $2.1tn
> Ratio: 4.38x
> 
> *Defense Spending (IISS)*
> China: $112.2bn
> Russia: $68.2bn
> Ratio: 1.64x
> 
> We've established that Russia is an economic, demographic, and military dwarf compared to China. Now let's establish the "partner" in the "junior partner" claim. Russia's main economic relationship with China is through energy resources:
> 
> View attachment 148721
> 
> 
> This is the same relationship that China has with Africa, and I doubt you would consider Africa to be a peer. Indeed, this asymmetrical trade relationship will only get worse for Russia as its defense exports to China decline and its energy exports increase because of the approximately $400bn deal you helpfully highlighted. And China relies on Russian oil for less than 10% of its needs, putting it in a strong position to dictate terms.
> 
> As far as shaping the world order, it is Russia that joined China's SCO, not the other way around.
> 
> In short, does Russia need China more than China needs Russia? If yes, that means it is the junior partner. Tell me, other than energy, in what way does China need Russia? It is already an economic superpower. It already has veto power on the UNSC. It has its own self-sufficient defense industry. China has immense leverage over Russia, but I see no symmetrical Russian leverage with China.
> 
> That's my case, now please present yours. How are China and Russia equal allies? Please be so kind as to quantify your answer, as I have done.



Equality does not dwell in economic data / population alone
How about foreign policies like seats and veto powers on permanent UNSC? Shanghai Co-op Org., BRICS? Military co-operations? Russia's vast untapped resources?

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## LeveragedBuyout

TaiShang said:


> What you present here is irrelevant and dry statistics.
> 
> By your weird logic, China and Russia cannot be equal partners because their population size does not match.



Precisely. China and Russia are not equal, not in demographics, not in economics, not militarily. Russia has more nukes, more energy, and more land, but the first will eventually be solved by China's military, the second has been solved by China's clever purchasing of energy from multiple sources, and the last is irrelevant (otherwise Canada would be considered a superpower, as well). China does not need Russia's political protection, because it has its own veto on the UNSC, and its own ways of buying influence from the Third World in the UNGA.

Dry statistics are the only objective measure. I accept that you're emotional about this, but you have yet to prove your case.


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## LeveragedBuyout

Keel said:


> Equality does not dwell in economic data / population alone
> How about foreign policies like seats and veto powers on permanent UNSC? Shanghai Co-op Org., BRICS? Military co-operations? Russia's vast untapped resources?



China doesn't need Russia in the UNSC, as it has its own veto. SCO is China's entity, not Russia's. BRICS does not exist as a meaningful entity other than a label for a specific grouping of countries (it's really China alone, plus the BRIS). It's fine for China to militarily cooperate with Russia, but I'd like to see a case where China needs Russia in any way militarily.

Russia's only contribution to China is through its natural resources, which places it firmly in the "supplier" category. Suppliers are subordinate to the client when an easily substituted commodity is involved, as it is in this case. Should Russia completely cut off supplies of energy to China (and destroy its own economy in the process), China would barely notice.

But I'm open-minded. Please present a case whereby Russia should be considered an equal partner to China.

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## Keel

LeveragedBuyout said:


> China doesn't need Russia in the UNSC, as it has its own veto. SCO is China's entity, not Russia's. BRICS does not exist as a meaningful entity other than a label for a specific grouping of countries (it's really China alone, plus the BRIS). It's fine for China to militarily cooperate with Russia, but I'd like to see a case where China needs Russia in any way militarily.
> 
> Russia's only contribution to China is through its natural resources, which places it firmly in the "supplier" category. Suppliers are subordinate to the client when an easily substituted commodity is involved, as it is in this case. Should Russia completely cut off supplies of energy to China (and destroy its own economy in the process), China would barely notice.
> 
> But I'm open-minded. Please present a case whereby Russia should be considered an equal partner to China.



THen you should cancel the UNSC membership for UK and France
Only China Russia and USA should have the veto power. How does this sound?

BRICS, Shanghai Co-op Orgs are formed on equality in membership
Read the charter of the Orgs before you spew nonsence

We are buying Russian jet engines, Su-35s, some missiles, submarines
We seek more co-operation in space technology. Russians (USSR) space explorations are ahead of us

We have great cultural exchanges. Russians dance troupes and music orchestras are top class
They best us in many sports disciplines

Russian has rich resources. We have great demand for their supply. What is wrong with that?
Russia also has a vast area of untapped resources. How can we not treating Russians are our close friends?

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## FairAndUnbiased

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Generally speaking, I agree with you, but democracy in a friend or ally is very important to the US. We have autocratic allies. But please consider the opposite side of the equation: if China ever implements democracy, it is possible that we will see yet another realignment in the world, where the US rushes to establish warm relations with China at the expense of other nations. So much has changed in the past 30 years that I would not dismiss this as a possibility.



Did the establishment of democracy in Russia lead to a warming of relations with Russia, or instead the creeping eastward expansion of NATO?

What if a Chinese democracy produces a leader like Putin - would the US still be friendly?

Look at Hatoyama - one of the few Japanese politicians to put Japan first, not the US, what happened to him? Roh Moo Hyun, one of the South Korean presidents to put South Korea's interests first even if they went against the US - what happened to him?

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## LeveragedBuyout

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Did the establishment of democracy in Russia lead to a warming of relations with Russia, or instead the creeping eastward expansion of NATO?



It was Russia that chose to make NATO's expansion a mutually exclusive choice with warming relations, not us. If Russia has not objected (since it has no legitimate right to determine the security arrangements of other sovereign powers), we would have had quite warm relations. I'm surprised that you, and the other Chinese users here, would apparently be comfortable with one country dictating another country's internal affairs. 



FairAndUnbiased said:


> What if a Chinese democracy produces a leader like Putin - would the US still be friendly?



If China didn't invade its neighbors, as Russia did with Georgia and Ukraine, I don't see why not.



FairAndUnbiased said:


> Look at Hatoyama - one of the few Japanese politicians to put Japan first, not the US, what happened to him? Roh Moo Hyun, one of the South Korean presidents to put South Korea's interests first even if they went against the US - what happened to him?



They displeased their populations through incompetent governance and were voted out of office. Surely you are not claiming that the US conspired behind the scenes to have these leaders removed?


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## cirr

Many a Chinese are curious about and interested in Russian smartphones。

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## TaiShang

*Xi-Putin to assert united front at APEC 
*




“The TPP is just another U.S. attempt to build an architecture of regional economic cooperation that the USA would benefit from,” said Putin ahead of the APEC Summit [PPIO]

In yet another boost to the emerging world’s most important economic, strategic, and political partnership, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping will take allied positions on key issues during the APEC Leaders Summit in Beijing this week.

“We are well aware that such collaboration is extremely important both for Russia and China. *We take similar or even identical stands on major global and regional issues on the international agenda. The Russian-Chinese relations have become a crucial factor in accommodating the foreign policy interests of the two countries in the 21st century, playing a significant role in establishing a just, harmonious and safe world order,”* said Putin on Thursday ahead of his Beijing visit.

Andrey Denisov, Russian envoy to China said the two Presidentswill “synchronize time” – referring to coordinating their positions – on Russia-China relations, international affairs and the APEC meetings.

Russia attaches great importance to the strategic Asia Pacific region, Denisov told China’s state media ahead of Putin’s arrival.

He said “more actively taking part in regional economic cooperation to create favorable conditions for the social and economic development of Russia, particularly east Russia,” is the country’s strategic goal in the region.

Earlier on Thursday, Putin lauded APEC’s role in maintaining stability in the region.

“When some countries prefer to act on the international arena using the methods of political, economic and often even coercive pressure the role of APEC as an effective coordinating mechanism for building a new regional architecture is indispensable,” Putin said referring toUS and EU sanctions on Moscow for the Ukraine crisis.

China is pressing for an “APEC information exchange” for free trade areas to increase transparency among the US-led Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) members and the China-led Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) members.

Ahead of the APEC Summit, host China has announced major economic projects for the region including the rebuilding of the Silk Economic Belt and 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, and the crucial Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank. During the APEC Summit, Beijing will continue negotiations with countries like Australia Indonesia and South Korea, notable absentees from the list of nations who signed up for the China-led Bank.

A _Bloomberg_ report quoted Chinese plans of a $16.3 billion fund for infrastructure projects linking China’s markets to three continents in its bid to revive the centuries-old Silk Road trading route.

Meanwhile the Russian envoy to China said on Friday that Beijing’s development drive in western China mirrors Russian efforts in the east.

“It would be a great boost to east Russia’s development if China’s business community can actively participate in investment projects in Siberia and the far east,” Denisov said.

Russia will also push for aligning the reincarnation of a China-led Silk Road Economic Belt and the Eurasia transport and logistics passageway being built by Russia, asserted the Russian envoy on Friday.

Putin, had earlier this year, proposed aligning China’s Silk Route revival project with Russian plans for a trans-Siberian railway.

“We see great potential in the idea of developing a common SCO transport system that would make use too of Russia’s Trans-Siberian Railway and Baikal-Amur Mainline and be tied into China’s plans for developing the Silk Road route. I am sure that big projects of this kind serve the interests of our organisation’s members and would benefit all countries in Eurasia,” said Putin.

Moscow will also support China’s push for a roadmap on the massive free trade treaty: Free Trade Area of the Asia-Pacific (FTAAP) during the APEC meet. Beijing plans to counter US’ progress in forming a Trans-Pacific Partnership that excludes China by an alternate mega Free Trade Agreement in the Asia Pacific.

“Obviously, the Trans-Pacific Partnership is just another U.S. attempt to build an architecture of regional economic cooperation that the USA would benefit from. At the same time, I believe that the absence of two major regional players such as Russia and China in its composition will not promote the establishment of effective trade and economic cooperation,” said Putin on Thursday in Moscow.

“The multilateral system of economic relations in the APR can only be strong if the interests of all states of the region are taken into account. This approach is reflected in the draft of the Beijing road map for the establishment of an Asia-Pacific free trade area. The draft is to be discussed at the forthcoming meeting of APEC leaders,” he added

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## vostok

TaiShang said:


> Cheap shot. Russia is in no way subordinate to China. The two are equals. A subordinate country would not pull out a Crimea with zero explicit Chinese support.
> 
> You have been repeating the same argument for too long anytime China-Russia reinforce their relationship. Better yet, you may ask Russian members here of their perception @vostok , and @senheiser
> 
> You have to bring out empirical evidence to prove that China-Russia partnership is one of a major and minor.
> 
> Russia is a major power by itself and we are just thankful to US for "facilitating" the China-Russia strategic alignment which is based on a completely different set of values and norms than the one between the US and its unimportant minions.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not. Besides, what is the relevance really. Exceeding or being exceeded does not make an alliance less equal if either of the two sides do not nurture hegemonic aspirations against the other.
> 
> 
> 
> If Saudi Arabia ever implements democracy, I wonder what the US, with the petrodollar gone, would do?
> 
> A note to yourself: China will never implement stuff in other people's terms.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, cheap shot. But, the prospects of a right wing warmonger president to assume power in the US is almost given.
> 
> 
> *Xi, Putin meet in Beijing, 17 agreements signed*
> *November 9, 2014, 1:41 pm*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Putin (left) presented Chinese President Xi Jinping (center) with a Russian smartphone– a Yotaphone-2, with Russian, Chinese and APEC symbols uploaded for the occasion [PPIO]
> 
> In a boost to bilateral ties between the two allies, *Russia and China have signed 17 agreements on Sunday after Presidents Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping met in Beijing.*
> 
> The deals inked today include an agreement on the delivery of Russian natural gas to China via the western route, securing the world’s top energy user a major source of cleaner fuel. The western route refers to gas supplies to China from Russian fields in West Siberia.
> 
> The route to supply gas to China via the western route may be implemented faster than the eastern route, through which Moscow agreed to ship the fuel to its Asian neighbor in May, according to Gazprom’s CEO Alexei Miller.
> 
> Putin, during Sunday’s meet, also lauded Russia-China ties as key to maintaining stability in the world.
> 
> “Cooperation between Russia and China is extremely important for keeping the world in line with the international law, making it [the world] more stable,” Putin said during his meet with Xi.
> 
> Russian state oil giant Rosneft and Chinese oil major CNPC also signed an agreement on Sunday to sell 10 per cent of shares in Rosneft’s subsidiary Vankorneft to China National Oil and Gas Exploration and Development.
> 
> Ties between the two allies “represent an irreversible trend” Xi said on Sunday.
> 
> *“No matter how the international landscape shifts, we must insist on giving priority to the development of Sino-Russian ties in our diplomatic endeavors, constantly boost political and strategic mutual trust, and keep expanding and deepening comprehensive cooperation,” said the Chinese President.*
> 
> *Xi and Putin also agreed to step up cooperation in high-speed rail, technology, aerospace and finance sectors.*
> 
> Sunday was Xi’s tenth meeting with Putin since he assumed the office of Chinese presidency in March 2013.
> 
> Russia and China also signed agreements on “implementing joint energy investment projects in Arkhangelsk Region, on the joint funding, construction and operation of a hydro power station in the Far East of Russia and on cooperation in the construction of hydro-accumulating power stations,” said a Kremlin statement.
> 
> Sberbank of Russia also signed an agreement with the Export-Import Bank of China regarding credit lines and purchasing loans, while VTB Bank signed a cooperation agreement with China’s telecom giant Huawei Technologies.
> 
> In Sunday’s meet, Putin noted that bilateral trade turnover went up by 1.3 per cent in 2013. In the first nine months of this year it has increased by 7 per cent as Russia increases it economic engagement with China while battling Western sanctions over the Ukraine crisis.
> 
> Putin and Xi also “discussed their respective countries’ positions on the main issues on the agendas for the upcoming APEC and G20 summits” said a Kremlin statement.
> 
> *“I would also like to note the importance of cooperation between the People’s Republic of China and the Russian Federation for retaining the world within the international legal framework, for making it more stable and predictable. You and I have done a great deal for this purpose and I am certain we will continue working in this direction,” said Puti*n.
> 
> *The two Presidents also announced on Sunday that China and Russia will jointly celebrate the 70th anniversary of the victory of World War II next year.*
> 
> Putin is in Beijing to attend the APEC Economic Leaders’ Meeting (AELM) that will be held on Monday and Tuesday and will be attended by world leaders from 21 nations, including US President Barack Obama.
> 
> *Obama’s Provocations Pushed China, Russia Closer *
> *Special to The BRICS Post *
> *November 9, 2014*
> 
> The American and Russian presidents have publicly revealed their conflicting visions of future development not only in Europe (where Moscow and Washington continue to lock horns over Ukraine), but in Asia, as well.
> 
> *In the buildup to the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit in Beijing, US President Barack Obama made it clear that he had no plans to meet his Russian counterpart.
> 
> He went on to say that he also likely won’t meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Brisbane, Australia where both leaders will attend the G20 summit in mid-November.
> 
> At the same time, Obama reiterated his support of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a trade deal Washington is negotiating with 11 nations in the region, excluding China and Russia.*
> 
> *On the eve of the APEC summit in Beijing, Putin highlighted his opposition to the TPP.*
> 
> One does not need to be a genius to understand that plans to build Pacific economic zones without the region’s two biggest powers – Russia and China – are doomed.
> 
> “It is clear that the economic influence of the United States and the West in general will inevitably decline in the coming years,” commented the Moscow-based _Expert_ magazine, Russia’s leading weekly specializing in economic analysis.
> 
> “But the [Obama] administration and the European Union seem to have chosen the costliest and the most painful way to manage this process,” it went on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “We’re organising trade relations with countries other than China so that China starts feeling more pressure about meeting basic international standards,” Obama said referring to the TPP in a presidential debate in 2012 [Xinhua]
> 
> Indeed, Obama’s stance is a logical continuation of the policy line he made public during his tour of Southeast Asian nations in spring 2014, right before Putin’s visit to Beijing.
> 
> *During his visits to Japan and Philippines, Obama promised US support in their disagreements with China.*
> 
> This presidential move couldn’t have been more provocative as the verbal bickering betweenChina and Japan over the disputed Diaoyu/Senkaku islands was at its height, and the conflict between Russia and the US over Ukraine was leading to outright civil war there.
> 
> *Backfire*
> 
> *The result of Obama’s actions in Japan and Philippines produced the opposite effect he had desired, however.*
> 
> In May, and most likely under the impression of American hostility, Russia and China inched closer together and signed a landmark gas deal.
> 
> According to the agreements signed during Putin’s visit to Beijing that month, Russia is to supply 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas a year to China via a yet to be constructed pipeline named Sila Sibiri (“The Force of Siberia”).
> 
> Thanks to this deal, Russia is expected to get $400 billion and to diversify its gas exports, which had been geared to the European markets for over 40 years.
> 
> The current Russia-China deal is supposed to be implemented over the course of the next 30 years.
> 
> *“Obama’s statements against China and Russia do not reveal a productive approach and reveal his lack of understanding of the region,” s*ays Yuri Tavrovsky, a prominent Russian expert on China and Japan.
> 
> *“Few people believe that the US can be a fair and balanced mediator between Tokyo and Beijing, [while] Washington’s bias against China is too obvious,” said Tavrovsky, who in the 1980s also consulted the Central Committee of the Communist party of the Soviet Union on relations with Tokyo and Beijing.*
> 
> “Also the United States is showing a lack of subtlety on the issue of China’s wartime losses. Official Chinese figures say 35 million Chinese lost their lives during the Japanese occupation in 1930s and 1940s. This is a huge figure.”
> 
> *Similarly, in Russia, relations with the US have soured over Washington’s support for the modern Ukrainian and Baltic nationalists.*
> 
> These groups often pose as successors to the Ukrainian and Baltic nationalist movements of the 1940s.
> 
> But many of these movements have for decades been tarnished by their collaboration with the German Nazi leader Adolph Hitler.
> 
> *During Hitler’s occupation of the Soviet territories between 1941 and 1945, these Ukrainian, Latvian and Estonian nationalists made their “contribution” to the killing of 27 million Soviet citizens, who perished during World War II.*
> 
> So, even emotionally – when one considers the casualties and horrors inflicted during that war – Russian and Chinese grievances against the US become similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “The Russian-Chinese relations have become a crucial factor in accommodating the foreign policy interests of the two countries in the 21st century, playing a significant role in establishing a just, harmonious and safe world order,” said Putin on Thursday ahead of his Beijing visit [PPIO]
> 
> 
> The anti-Beijing and anti-Moscow clique behind Washington’s foreign policy, which became all too apparent in recent years, is pushing not only Russia and China but also other BRICS countries to common protective measures against the US.
> 
> 
> *Layering the BRICS*
> 
> BRICS’ leaders are planning to meet on the sidelines of the G-20 summit in Brisbane on November 15-16.
> 
> *As Putin meets with his BRICS allies, Obama seems to be deliberately isolating himself by refusing to meet the Russian president in Brisbane.*
> 
> Analysts note that in Autumn 2013 Obama also refused to have talks with Putin at the G20 summit in St. Petersburg, Russia.
> 
> Only a few weeks later, Obama needed Putin’s help in implementing the Russian plan of dismantling Syria’s chemical weapons.
> 
> This plan saved Obama from losing face after cancelling the White House strategy to launch airstrikes against Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad’s forces.
> 
> BRICS has already established a $100 billion New Development Bank and a $100 billion Contingency Reserve Arrangement, both of which are supposed to provide additional financial protection to members in case of emergency.
> 
> For Russia, which is under financial sanctions from the US and the EU, these organizations of financial protection are a source of hope as the Ruble continues its six-month downward spiral.
> 
> *China, which is a major contributor to the BRICS projects, is also interested in Russia’s energy reserves.
> 
> In this sphere, both countries’ interests converge.*
> 
> This is significant for Moscow, which has been hearing for some time the EU’s threat that it will “lessen its dependence” on Russian gas exports.
> 
> Besides the controversial American plan of Trans-Pacific cooperation which excludes both of their countries, Russia’s Putin and China’s Xi Jinping are expected to make progress on the plans of an additional pipeline from Russia to China.
> 
> The so called Altai pipeline (also called the Western Itinerary) is expected to carry 30 billion cubic meters of gas to China.
> 
> The Russian energy minister Alexander Novak said the deal could be finalized by the first half of the year 2015.
> 
> A year ago, this plan would have more closely resembled a fantasy.
> 
> But it is precisely Washington’s aggressive support of the anti-Russian “revolution” in Ukraine and for anti-Chinese forces in Asia that has transformed this fantastic Russo-Chinese cooperation into a reality.


Obama spoke loudly and pompously about some "pivot to Asia". But as result of stupidity and lack of professionalism of his team, Russia has made the pivot to Asia. And for the US here remaining less and less space. "Allies" in the understanding of the United States - is dozens occupying US bases on your territory. 
Alliance of Russia and China - horrible nightmare of Washington. But they themselves have contributed to this.

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## dbc

LeveragedBuyout said:


> China doesn't need Russia in the UNSC, as it has its own veto. SCO is China's entity, not Russia's. BRICS does not exist as a meaningful entity other than a label for a specific grouping of countries (it's really China alone, plus the BRIS). It's fine for China to militarily cooperate with Russia, but I'd like to see a case where China needs Russia in any way militarily.
> 
> Russia's only contribution to China is through its natural resources, which places it firmly in the "supplier" category. Suppliers are subordinate to the client when an easily substituted commodity is involved, as it is in this case. Should Russia completely cut off supplies of energy to China (and destroy its own economy in the process), China would barely notice.



You may find your answer in history. Read about "The Hump" and the Soviet Japnese neutrality pact 1942.

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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> China would still be very much addicted to foreign weapons,



Other than Russian weaponry what foreign weapons were you ever addicted too???


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

ashok mourya said:


> Canada vs India Military Stats Compared
> 
> Hey *mr canadian crap*..why you have so much hatred for india.
> its different thread but as u repeatedly hurting indians with typical **** language..a comparision between india and canada militarily as this is a defence forum will show youmirror....what you are?


He is Chinese


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## Hamartia Antidote

cirr said:


> View attachment 148731
> 
> 
> Many a Chinese are curious about and interested in Russian smartphones。



Give me a break...if somehow Russian phones gain > 5% of the Chinese market you'd all jump in the ocean in disgrace.


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## LeveragedBuyout

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You may find your answer in history. Read about "The Hump" and the Soviet Japnese neutrality pact 1942.



This is too indirect for me to understand. What does the US effort to supply war materiel to the KMT have to do with Russia's subordination to China today? What does the Soviet refusal to help the allied war effort in the Pacific theater in WWII have to do with Russia's subordination to China today?


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## TaiShang

*Ruble-yuan settlements will cut energy sales in US dollars – Putin*
Published time: November 10, 2014 09:44 

*Doing away with the US dollar and switching to ruble and yuan payments will significantly increase Russia and China’s say in energy and financial markets, Vladimir Putin has said, adding that the first deals are already underway.*

In short the President said the US dollar has no future, and that the ruble and the yuan have better long-term prospects.

_*“Payments in rubles and yuan are very promising. Switching to such a large-scale work means that the impact of the dollar on the global energy sector will objectively decline.* This is not bad either for the global economy, or the world of finance and the world energy markets,”_ Putin said at the APEC Business Summit in Beijing Monday.

_“It will help expand our capabilities in mutual trade and influence both world financial and energy markets,"_ the president said.

Using local currencies will speed up trade between the two countries who are aiming to reach $100 billion by 2015. Trade between Russia and China is already nearly $90 billion, and is scheduled to hit $200 billion in the next six years.

*"The People’s Republic of China is one of our key partners in the region. We will make greater use of settlements in our national currencies in our trade with China. We are already carrying out our first deals in rubles and yuan," *Putin said.

Payments in national currency are planned particularly in trading oil and that Russian experts are currently assessing the possibility.

The two countries agreed on a currency swap worth up to $25 billion on October 13.

Moscow and Beijing aim for a broader use of the yuan and the ruble in mutual settlements across industries, including defense, telecoms, energy, and mining, possibly by one of Russia’s major companies, according to Putin.

*Russia’s second biggest bank, VTB, has already begun to reorient business towards China and is working with Chinese regulators to remove restrictions to allow ruble transactions.*

_“Our contact with the leadership of China’s biggest banks shows they share this interest. This is consistent with the plan for China to bring the yuan to the next level and make it a hard currency,”_ VTB head Andrey Kostin said at the summit, as quoted by RIA.









A switch to domestic currencies is a huge move for Russia and China as both countries are members of the BRICS Bank which was established earlier this year to try and challenge the global dominance of the US dollar and such global lenders as the IMF and the World Bank.

READ MORE: BRICS countries near development bank deal to rival IMF, WB

China and Malaysia also announced a new bank that uses the yuan as a reserve currency, which means the dollar stands to lose its regional stronghold.

*‘New level of cooperation’*
The currency swap is just a notch in the belt in developing Russia-China economic ties. The two have grown closer over Russia’s disillusionment with the West over the Ukraine crisis and sanctions.

_“Cooperation between Russia and the Asian-Pacific nations is of the utmost importance to us,”_ Putin said.

*Symbolic of the deepening rapport was the signing of the second major gas deal in six months, which has the potential to make China Russia’s largest energy customer.*

*Putin named China as Russia’s biggest regional partner, and even offered the country stakes in Russian energy projects.*

_*“We are also examining possibilities for our Chinese partners to acquire stakes in some of our biggest production assets,”*_ Putin said.

On Sunday, Russia’s oil giant Rosneft and China National Oil and Gas Exploration and Development Corporation signed an agreement on the acquisition of a 10 percent stake in Vankorneft, a Rosneft subsidiary that develops oil in Russia’s Eastern Siberia. Rosneft has also offered China a share in its second-largest oil field, Vankor, which is estimated to have reserves of 520 million metric tons of oil and 95 billion cubic meters of natural gas.

Russia may opt to include China in the big oil and gas projects in the Far East, namely on Sakhalin Island, north of Japan. Among the international partners is Japan which has a 30 percent stake in the Sakhalin-1 project and a 22 percent in the Sakhalin-2.

@Chinese-Dragon , @Raphael , @tranquilium , @Edison Chen et al.

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## dbc

LeveragedBuyout said:


> This is too indirect for me to understand. What does the US effort to supply war materiel to the KMT have to do with Russia's subordination to China today? What does the Soviet refusal to help the allied war effort in the Pacific theater in WWII have to do with Russia's subordination to China today?



I expected you to connect the dots. In a conflict with a major power, China is vulnerable to a naval blockade such as the one the Japanese successfully imposed on China in the 1940's. China's concern in this regard is clear from the weapons systems they develop such as the DF-21 and its theater of deployment.

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## LeveragedBuyout

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I expected you to connect the dots. In a conflict with a major power, China is vulnerable to a naval blockade such as the one the Japanese successfully imposed on China in the 1940's. China's concern in this regard is clear from the weapons systems they develop such as the DF-21 and its theater of deployment.



Thanks for connecting some of the dots for me. I wonder if you could complete the puzzle by assessing the following issues:

1) Given the devastating effects such a blockade would have on all of the world's major economies, what do you assess is the likelihood that such a tactic would be pursued? 

2) Moreover, given the strength of today's China vs. the civil war-wracked China that Japan was fighting against, do you even view a naval blockade as achievable today?

3) Given China's reach into central Asia with its Silk Road 2.0, and its "great friendship" with Pakistan, is Russia still vital in China's ability to avoid the fallout of a naval blockade?

As you can see from my questions, I'm still skeptical that China needs Russia, even in such an extreme scenario.

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## Genesis

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Thanks for connecting some of the dots for me. I wonder if you could complete the puzzle by assessing the following issues:
> 
> 1) Given the devastating effects such a blockade would have on all of the world's major economies, what do you assess is the likelihood that such a tactic would be pursued?
> 
> 2) Moreover, given the strength of today's China vs. the civil war-wracked China that Japan was fighting against, do you even view a naval blockade as achievable today?
> 
> 3) Given China's reach into central Asia with its Silk Road 2.0, and its "great friendship" with Pakistan, is Russia still vital in China's ability to avoid the fallout of a naval blockade?
> 
> As you can see from my questions, I'm still skeptical that China needs Russia, even in such an extreme scenario.



1) not likely, though I wouldn't put anything pass anybody. 

2) By Japan? Hell no. By US? It's not impossible to achieve today, but it'll get harder as the years go by, to eventually impossible. 

I'm not just talking military.

3) Is Russia vital? Define vital. IS Philippines vital to the US? No, but it's nice to have them do your bidding. Now Russia is no Philippines and they won't and shouldn't do our bidding, which makes them a even better irritant to the US. 



All in all, blockade with ships is unlikely, but with things like the TPP, but not necessarily the TPP, the US is showing what it's intentions are. 

So the real battle isn't fought on the battle field, it's fought in the board room.

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## Aepsilons

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I expected you to connect the dots. In a conflict with a major power, China is vulnerable to a naval blockade such as the one the Japanese successfully imposed on China in the 1940's. China's concern in this regard is clear from the weapons systems they develop such as the DF-21 and its theater of deployment.



A naval blockade will only happen if the Chinese P.L.A.N is neutralized, doing that would take be devastating to achieve even for both the combined forces of the USN's 7th Fleet and the JMSDF. In this hypothetical scenario, there will be devastating losses on merchant shipping fleets, which will hurt Japan, United States, China and the rest of the world. The waters near the Malaccas Straits and the South China Sea will be a graveyard for ships.

The point is, Sir, a direct naval conflict will devastate not only China, but also Japan and the United States. There is no win-win scenario. This is the reason why diplomatic capital has been utilized to find solutions to problems. Nations are not static entities, they, like living organisms, are adaptive, with traits that were defined by Allport. These cardinal traits define nation states just as they define individuals. And one thing we notice is that nation states have teh ability to adapt to situations, make compromises (which we have seen lately in the ECS region).

Lastly, I want to reiterate that United States, China and Japan are the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd greatest economies in the world, respectively. A war involving these three great powers will lead to a global economic crisis of epic proportions.

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## Steakhouse

Harder to effectively enforce on naval blockage on China in the future since China will at least formed 2 aircraft battle group with the next 6 yrs, SCS within range of China land base air force, China on their process to build the unsinkable carrier on the far post of SCS. In other to contain China navy in SCS, the many layers of defense have to be defeat for other naval forces keep China navy away from the SCS. China just need naval base in Cambodia will effectively provide the protection needed for China navy from the front to the rear of the naval conflict zone. Russia also the key to provide China raw material in case of China face the any naval blockage, China can use the land route through Pakistan to have raw material deliver to China. If the Silk Road being construct in the near future, China will have good option to sustain supply line of raw material in the future conflict. Japan is an islets form nation without any land connectivity with other nation, Japan will always susceptible to naval blockage more so than China.


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## bolo

China +Russia+China can rule the world


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## alaungphaya

Steakhouse said:


> Harder to effectively enforce on naval blockage on China in the future since China will at least formed 2 aircraft battle group with the next 6 yrs, SCS within range of China land base air force, China on their process to build the unsinkable carrier on the far post of SCS. In other to contain China navy in SCS, the many layers of defense have to be defeat for other naval forces keep China navy away from the SCS. China just need naval base in Cambodia will effectively provide the protection needed for China navy from the front to the rear of the naval conflict zone. Russia also the key to provide China raw material in case of China face the any naval blockage, China can use the land route through Pakistan to have raw material deliver to China. If the Silk Road being construct in the near future, China will have good option to sustain supply line of raw material in the future conflict. Japan is an islets form nation without any land connectivity with other nation, Japan will always susceptible to naval blockage more so than China.


China are building a naval base in Cambodia? Since when?


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## Steakhouse

alaungphaya said:


> China are building a naval base in Cambodia? Since when?





That just my suggestion, I don't think China have any naval base outside of China.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Steakhouse said:


> Harder to effectively enforce on naval blockage on China in the future since China will at least formed 2 aircraft battle group with the next 6 yrs, SCS within range of China land base air force, China on their process to build the unsinkable carrier on the far post of SCS. In other to contain China navy in SCS, the many layers of defense have to be defeat for other naval forces keep China navy away from the SCS. China just need naval base in Cambodia will effectively provide the protection needed for China navy from the front to the rear of the naval conflict zone. Russia also the key to provide China raw material in case of China face the any naval blockage, China can use the land route through Pakistan to have raw material deliver to China. If the Silk Road being construct in the near future, China will have good option to sustain supply line of raw material in the future conflict. Japan is an islets form nation without any land connectivity with other nation, Japan will always susceptible to naval blockage more so than China.



DF-21D will be our primary defense against blockade.

According to a US analyst, we can build 1,127+ of our DF-21D for the cost of a single American aircraft carrier. And according to the US defence department itself, even one single warhead is enough to sink a carrier.

And the cost of the carrier is not counting all the expensive jet fighters on board, and the 9000 naval personnel. Or the amount of time it will take to rebuild the carrier, the planes, and to replace those personnel.

It can never be cost effective for America to trade their aircraft carriers for large salvos of DF-21D, not even close. They will only do that if it is a WW3 type situation.

And we will be upgrading the DF-21D with HGV warheads, and possibly allow them to be launched from submarines as well. The HGV warheads will massively extend the range to several thousand kilometers, and make them nearly impossible to intercept (as well as adding enormous maneuverability and accuracy).

On the supply side, we already have numerous pipelines to Central Asia, and we are now doing the same with Russia. We also have significant domestic oil reserves, we are currently the 5th largest producer of oil in the world. We can boost our domestic production, and import more oil over land pipelines. Combined with our strategic emergency reserves of oil it should not significantly impact our domestic oil supply unless the conflict stretches for a long period of time.

We do have a vulnerability, but we also have plenty of counter-measures, and can withstand the storm for a long time.

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## terranMarine

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Lastly, I want to reiterate that United States, China and Japan are the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd greatest economies in the world, respectively. A war involving these three great powers will lead to a global economic crisis of epic proportions.



That we can all agree on

As for viewing Russia playing the 2nd fiddle by @LeveragedBuyout, i understand the points he has made but just like the rest of my fellow countrymen China does not view Russia as a subordinate even if some Russian businessmen might share the same sentiment as he does. It's a fact China has a way bigger economy, we are getting more advanced, we can diversify our energy resources from the ME region or Venezuela but why should we exclude dealing with Russia on this matter? Even China who financed the biggest share of the BRICS bank doesn't view the rest of the members as subordinates.
Perhaps Russia needs China more than vice versa in regards to the sanctions placed by the Western countries recently but the same thing can be said of US responsible for the weapon embargo on China. Russia was willing to sell to China so does that mean either one of us is a subordinate of the other one since Russia was broke and China had no where else to turn to?

I believe both countries can learn from one another in many fields and a closer cooperation is certainly welcome. Russia continues to play an important role in geopolitics especially in the Eurasian region, what to think of the revival of the silk road connecting all the way to EU? Sadly Western analysts love driving a wedge between us, it's something our leaders should ignore. To our partnership

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## Steakhouse

Chinese-Dragon said:


> DF-21D will be our primary defense against blockade.
> 
> According to a US analyst, we can build 1,127+ of our DF-21D for the cost of a single American aircraft carrier. And according to the US defence department itself, even one single warhead is enough to sink a carrier.
> 
> And the cost of the carrier is not counting all the expensive jet fighters on board, and the 9000 naval personnel. Or the amount of time it will take to rebuild the carrier, the planes, and to replace those personnel.
> 
> It can never be cost effective for America to trade their aircraft carriers for large salvos of DF-21D, not even close. They will only do that if it is a WW3 type situation.
> 
> And we will be upgrading the DF-21D with HGV warheads, and possibly allow them to be launched from submarines as well. The HGV warheads will massively extend the range to several thousand kilometers, and make them nearly impossible to intercept (as well as adding enormous maneuverability and accuracy).
> 
> On the supply side, we already have numerous pipelines to Central Asia, and we are now doing the same with Russia. We also have significant domestic oil reserves, we are currently the 5th largest producer of oil in the world. We can boost our domestic production, and import more oil over land pipelines. Combined with our strategic emergency reserves of oil it should not significantly impact our domestic oil supply unless the conflict stretches for a long period of time.









DF21 isn't a single stand alone game change weapon without depend on other subsystem for it to work, df21 not a wonder system can solely destroy US naval force. In other for the land base df21 to take out a carrier, it need to tract, real time located a moving object by a imaging satellite, spy aircraft or drone. Without visual confirming the location of the object, the missile will blindly fired into the vast empty ocean.


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## F-22Raptor

A naval blockade of China would prove to be quite effective in my estimation. China's ability to wage sustained high intensity warfare diminishes the further away you get from its coast, due to a heavy reliance on its land based missile and aircraft forces. At the opening of a conflict, the US would strike at China's space and maritime ISR nodes which provides target and track capabilities across the Pacific. It's essentially a blinding campaign to degrade the effectiveness of China's land based missile forces. The US would also target Chinese airfields, command and control, and naval ports further degrading Chinese capability to fight and sustain at long ranges. Due to the advanced US submarine force, long range strike capability, and logistical edge, the US could wreck the Chinese economy to put it bluntly. Obviously, such a scenario would be devastating for the world economy, but it is a strategy that would be implemented.

This is why it's so important to setup the necessary parameters to prevent miscalculations. Lines of communication will be integral moving forward.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Would people stop talking about a Naval blockade.
This is the 21st century. Blockades are done with phone calls not physical ships.

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## Steakhouse

F-22Raptor said:


> A naval blockade of China would prove to be quite effective in my estimation. China's ability to wage sustained high intensity warfare diminishes the further away you get from its coast, due to a heavy reliance on its land based missile and aircraft forces. At the opening of a conflict, the US would strike at China's space and maritime ISR nodes which provides target and track capabilities across the Pacific. It's essentially a blinding campaign to degrade the effectiveness of China's land based missile forces. The US would also target Chinese airfields, command and control, and naval ports further degrading Chinese capability to fight and sustain at long ranges. Due to the advanced US submarine force, long range strike capability, and logistical edge, the US could wreck the Chinese economy to put it bluntly. Obviously, such a scenario would be devastating for the world economy, but it is a strategy that would be implemented.
> 
> This is why it's so important to setup the necessary parameters to prevent miscalculations. Lines of communication will be integral moving forward.







Naval blockade mean to cut off raw material supply line to China through sea route, since Russia can easily supply raw material to China, China will never starve for material. China build up the naval force if totally concentrated on protecting the SCS then China navy can be a formidable force against any navy in SCS. Implement naval blockade against China not be an easily task without the risk of many naval assets destroyed in the process.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Steakhouse said:


> Naval blockade mean to cut off raw material supply line to China through sea route, since Russia can easily supply raw material to China, China will never starve for material. China build up the naval force if totally concentrated on protecting the SCS then China navy can be a formidable force against any navy in SCS. Implement naval blockade against China not be an easily task without the risk of many naval assets destroyed in the process.



This whole talk is silly. Any ship (that isn't a neighboring country) would be stopped over 1000 miles away before it even got close to China. So unless China is going to station their Navy off the coast of Madagascar, the Straits of Magellan, Cape Horn, Suez/Panama Canal and the straits of Hormuz this whole blockade thing is moot.

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## Steakhouse

Peter C said:


> This whole talk is silly. Any ship (that isn't a neighboring country) would be stopped over 1000 miles away before it even got close to China. So unless China is going to station their Navy off the coast of Madagascar, the Straits of Magellan, Cape Horn, Suez/Panama Canal and the straits of Hormuz this whole blockade thing is moot.





I agree with you outside of SCS, China naval capacity will surely diminish in confrontation against US and her allies navy in Strait of Magellan, Cape Horn etc.. Only a prolong dragging all out war will the naval blockade somehow be implement.


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## F-22Raptor

Steakhouse said:


> Naval blockade mean to cut off raw material supply line to China through sea route, since Russia can easily supply raw material to China, China will never starve for material. China build up the naval force if totally concentrated on protecting the SCS then China navy can be a formidable force against any navy in SCS. Implement naval blockade against China not be an easily task without the risk of many naval assets destroyed in the process.


 The Chinese economy is heavily reliant on sea based trade with other nations. Russia would not be able to make up such a deficit. The Chinese would have to be able to fight and sustain operations at significant distances from home. Not only does China not have the military to do so, they don't have the logistical capability either.


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## Steakhouse

F-22Raptor said:


> The Chinese economy is heavily reliant on sea based trade with other nations. Russia would not be able to make up such a deficit. The Chinese would have to be able to fight and sustain operations at significant distances from home. Not only does China not have the military to do so, they don't have the logistical capability either.





Naval blockade on China will also affect China neighbor, global economy integrate all part of the world, majority of the Southeast Asia also depend on the sea route for their trade, you think Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, Japan, Philippine will not suffer from the naval blockade aimed at China? China main focus on strengthen their military especially their naval build up to defend their interest within the 1st islands chain. Beyond the first islands chains China military projection are limited because lack of naval base outside of China, China have the capacity to transport their military to the far distance but not enough platform to transfer large number of troop in short order. China is building their logistic capacity for future military involvement in a far distance. China develop their large transport aircraft and build their LHD transport ship to breach the gap. The way China show their military development indicated China will never stay static with their military planning.


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## boke

还能说什么呢？美国在亚洲的存在本身就应该是建设性，而不是起反作用的。事实上，美国的亚洲战略在中国看来是具有强烈敌对和侵略性的，而且美国试图将他的这种冷战和遏制思维灌输给中国周边国家来遏制中国的发展，他至今依然是对华高科技产品禁运的最积极国家。显然，美国的做法不可能赢得中国的好感，更不可能得到中国的友好合作，对待朋友和对待敌人本身就不可能一视同仁。俄罗斯奉行的是现实主义，对中国而言，现实利益和长远利益相结合才是最好的做法，所以，现阶段如果中俄紧密联合，那就是说美国及其跟随者的做法不仅错了，而且错的越来越离谱。西方的多数观察家和学者从来就少反思自身，而坚持妖魔化丑化中国，这种误导将让国家间的理解和相互尊重变的越来越难以实现。如果亚洲不稳，责任不在于中国。中国周边的国家和非周边的国家如美国应该认真思考下，如果想在亚洲真正做到和平共处共荣，应该采取怎样的做法和中国相处。


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## dbc

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Thanks for connecting some of the dots for me. I wonder if you could complete the puzzle by assessing the following issues:
> 
> 1) Given the devastating effects such a blockade would have on all of the world's major economies, what do you assess is the likelihood that such a tactic would be pursued?
> 
> 2) Moreover, given the strength of today's China vs. the civil war-wracked China that Japan was fighting against, do you even view a naval blockade as achievable today?
> 
> 3) Given China's reach into central Asia with its Silk Road 2.0, and its "great friendship" with Pakistan, is Russia still vital in China's ability to avoid the fallout of a naval blockade?
> 
> As you can see from my questions, I'm still skeptical that China needs Russia, even in such an extreme scenario.



1. Depends on the sequence of events that lead to such measures being considered. From a US perspective there are certain red lines that China must not cross. And I don't think China will cross those lines but China/ US may miscalculate or certain events in that region may spiral out of control and force a confrontation. The omission of the US in my earlier post was deliberate, China has other emerging challengers - India and Japan. In my opinion, both India and Japan are more than a match for the Chinese Navy in open seas today. The outcome of a naval engagement between India/China or Japan/China will depend on how much of China's land based assets can be brought to the party. So to answer your question, China needs to plan for present and emerging threats so good relations with its northern neighbor is in her best interests.

2. Japan succeeded in imposing a blockade despite opposition from the Royal Navy and USN. The Royal Navy was a force to reckon with in the 40's. China's vulnerability is due to its geography, stated another way US forces will be challenged to defend China's coast and shipping lanes today.

3. Silk road 2 over the Himalayan mountain range will never accommodate the volume of cargo necessary to support China's economy or war needs.

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## xunzi

Here is our hypothetical response to a naval blockage:

1. DF-21D to knock any surface ships in sight. The best way to track ship is not satellite but through merchant ship location which thousand of our fishing vassals are equipped with.

2. Once we build naval base in SCS, expect our missile and aircraft to launch attack quickly on surface ships. The only real threat is the US submarines and if the US sink our merchant vessels, expect us to sink any of US's allied vessels in sight.

3. If escalated further, we will knock US satellites down and exchange nuke.

4. In the short term, energy from central Asia and Russia can sustain our effort to withstand the blockage and long term the US and her allied will equally suffer from it as we will not stand pat to die.

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## Hamartia Antidote

xunzi said:


> Here is our hypothetical response to a naval blockage:
> 
> 1. DF-21D to knock any surface ships in sight. The best way to track ship is not satellite but through merchant ship location which thousand of our fishing vassals are equipped with.
> 
> 2. Once we build naval base in SCS, expect our missile and aircraft to launch attack quickly on surface ships. The only real threat is the US submarines and if the US sink our merchant vessels, expect us to sink any of US's allied vessels in sight.



What backwards 70 years ago world are you living in??? This is 2014. The days of stacking ships off the shore of some country are long long long gone. I can't believe you would even suggest it would even happen.

Do you think there are dozens of ships blockading Syria, Russia, Iran, or North Korea? Blockading is done over the phone.
Ships wouldn't even get out of port never mind being intercepted off the coast of China.

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## xunzi

Peter C said:


> What backwards 70 year old world are you living in??? This is 2014. The days of stacking ships off the shore of some country are long long long gone. I can't believe you would even suggest it would even happen.
> 
> Do you think there are dozens of ships blockading Syria, Russia, Iran, or North Korea? Blockading is done over the phone.
> Ships wouldn't even get out of port never mind being intercepted off the coast of China.


I am just presenting our "Chinese view" on the blockage and warn to all that we are not going to stand pat to die. Like I said before, if we go down, we will bring our friends with us to hell.

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## Hamartia Antidote

xunzi said:


> I am just presenting our "Chinese view" on the blockage and warn to all that we are not going to stand pat to die. Like I said before, if we go down, we will bring our friends with us to hell.



Well get your cannon ready with shrapnel so you can knock out the riggings of the sails of our warships.

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## xunzi

Peter C said:


> Well get your canon ready with shrapnel so you can knock out the riggings of the sails of our warships.


We always prepare for the worse which is why we spent billions to build the silk road and talk of building Kra Canal. When our lifeblood and existence are threaten, we will do whatever is necessary.

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## Aepsilons

Peter C said:


> _*Well get your cannon ready with shrapnel so you can knock out the riggings of the sails of our warships.*_






*thinks of Pirates of the Caribbean*

"There she blows, matey, shiver me timber.."

LOL


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## AgentOrange

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Thanks for connecting some of the dots for me. I wonder if you could complete the puzzle by assessing the following issues:
> 
> 1) Given the devastating effects such a blockade would have on all of the world's major economies, what do you assess is the likelihood that such a tactic would be pursued?
> 
> 2) Moreover, given the strength of today's China vs. the civil war-wracked China that Japan was fighting against, do you even view a naval blockade as achievable today?
> 
> 3) Given China's reach into central Asia with its Silk Road 2.0, and its "great friendship" with Pakistan, is Russia still vital in China's ability to avoid the fallout of a naval blockade?
> 
> As you can see from my questions, I'm still skeptical that China needs Russia, even in such an extreme scenario.



With regards to your second point, would you view the 2nd Chinese/Russian oil deal as China directly hedging against such a possibility at least in terms of energy (however unlikely)?

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## AgentOrange

Great discussion guys. When considering naval blockade of China, people usually assume its closer to China's shores but I've read scenarios where Air/Sea battle aims to enforce a blockade (hypothetically speaking) outside the range of the DF-21. Now that's a huge expanse of water to cover, even for the USN. How likely do you guys think that scenario to succeed?


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## AgentOrange

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> In my opinion, both *India *and Japan are more than a match for the Chinese Navy in open seas today.



Japan I agree with. But India?

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## LeveragedBuyout

AgentOrange said:


> With regards to your second point, would you view the 2nd Chinese/Russian oil deal as China directly hedging against such a possibility at least in terms of energy (however unlikely)?



I've been arguing for some time that this was an opportunistic deal for China, not one that was critical for it. China and Russia had been negotiating for years on price, and it's not coincidence that suddenly there was movement in the deal in the wake of the Crimea sanctions. It's not unreasonable to make an educated guess that China was able to exploit Russia's desperation in order to negotiate a good price. Until we have the details (and we may never have the details), we'll never know for sure.

But there is one other factor, about which I've been pounding the table incessantly on PDF: China simply doesn't need Russian energy, and is already extremely well diversified, which provides it with even more negotiating leverage. Do you think Saudi Arabia, Angola, Iran, Oman, Iraq, etc. would feel bound by any US sanctions against China, when China is such a major source of revenue for them? Yeah, I didn't think so, either. And with the Silk Road 2.0 project, a naval blockade becomes even less effective in terms of blocking the energy flow.







Since coal comprises the majority of energy production, and coal is fairly simple to source, that's one big obstacle for an embargo/blockade. Then there's the question of gas and oil, which again, would be extremely difficult to cut off to reach China's pain point:











Not to mention the domestic sources of energy yet to be tapped by China:

Oil





Gas





Not only are sources of energy well-diversified, but so are distribution channels:






Russia is icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Good for China, but again, this is an opportunistic move, not a strategic move.

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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> Now that's a huge expanse of water to cover, even for the USN. How likely do you guys think that scenario to succeed?



We call them up on the phone and tell them not to send their ships to China and they say "ok"

Why do you think the US is going to stack ships off the coast of China? This isn't the 18th century.

@SvenSvensonov can you chime in on this nonsense?


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## Oldman1

AgentOrange said:


> Great discussion guys. When considering naval blockade of China, people usually assume its closer to China's shores but I've read scenarios where Air/Sea battle aims to enforce a blockade (hypothetically speaking) outside the range of the DF-21. Now that's a huge expanse of water to cover, even for the USN. How likely do you guys think that scenario to succeed?



No different than what happened in WW2 when fighting 2 oceans.


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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> We call them up on the phone and tell them not to send their ships to China and they say "ok"
> 
> Why do you think the US is going to stack ships off the coast of China? This isn't the 18th century.
> 
> @SvenSvensonov can you chime in on this nonsense?



Did I say anything about stacking ships off the coast of China? I was actually referencing an article on National Interest that mentioned a wide ranging blockade. Brilliant as you are, you equate China with Syria, Iran, etc where you believe a phone call is all it takes to make other nations stop their trade. I disagree. Apparently Leveraged Buyout disagrees with you - given China's economic size many countries won't pick up when the US comes calling. So back to my original point...

But anyways, do you have anything useful to add? Aside from your astute observation that it is no longer the 18th century. No? Didn't think so.

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## AgentOrange

boke said:


> 还能说什么呢？美国在亚洲的存在本身就应该是建设性，而不是起反作用的。事实上，美国的亚洲战略在中国看来是具有强烈敌对和侵略性的，而且美国试图将他的这种冷战和遏制思维灌输给中国周边国家来遏制中国的发展，他至今依然是对华高科技产品禁运的最积极国家。显然，美国的做法不可能赢得中国的好感，更不可能得到中国的友好合作，对待朋友和对待敌人本身就不可能一视同仁。俄罗斯奉行的是现实主义，对中国而言，现实利益和长远利益相结合才是最好的做法，所以，现阶段如果中俄紧密联合，那就是说美国及其跟随者的做法不仅错了，而且错的越来越离谱。西方的多数观察家和学者从来就少反思自身，而坚持妖魔化丑化中国，这种误导将让国家间的理解和相互尊重变的越来越难以实现。如果亚洲不稳，责任不在于中国。中国周边的国家和非周边的国家如美国应该认真思考下，如果想在亚洲真正做到和平共处共荣，应该采取怎样的做法和中国相处。



Use English please. Those are the house rules. Or get banned.


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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> Did I say anything about stacking ships off the coast of China? I was actually referencing an article on National Interest that mentioned a wide ranging blockade.
> 
> Got anything useful to add? No? Didn't think so.



I'm trying to say is that the US Navy isn't in the "blockade business". It's ludicrous to assume the US Navy would ever be within range of a country's Air Force. Even in WW2 US aircraft carriers had to launch the Doolittle raid 100's of miles out due to fears of getting within range of Japanese Air Force bombers.

Stating that the US is forced to do a blockade outside the range of the DF21 is crazy because even if you didn't have the DF21 they still would stay out of range of your Air Force. Any blockade would have to be far far far out and well it's a lot easier just to get people on the phone and tell them to simply not send ships to China or just hang out at shipping choke points around the world.

Hanging out off the shores of China is simply not a useful strategy.

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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> I'm trying to say is that the US Navy isn't in the "blockade business". It's ludicrous to assume the US Navy would ever be within range of a country's Air Force. Even in WW2 US aircraft carriers had to launch the Doolittle raid 100's of miles out due to fears of getting within range of Japanese Air Force bombers.
> 
> Stating that the US is forced to do a blockade outside the range of the DF21 is crazy because even if you didn't have the DF21 they still would stay out of range of your Air Force. Any blockade would have to be far far far out and well it's a lot easier just to get people on the phone and tell them to simply not send ships to China or just hang out at shipping choke points around the world.
> 
> Hanging out off the shores of China is simply not a useful strategy.



OK that makes more sense and is more inline with the article I read. The part about strategic chokepoints. Which is still a blockade, by the way. 

In which case, how much of the navy would the US have to devote to enforce such a "non-blockade" according to you? Considering, as leveraged buyout pointed out, that many nations have far more to lose by stopping trade with China than listening to the US? China is no "axis of evil" country that everyone can easily gang up on with minimal economic fallout. The USN would have to search/check every ship that sailed by in which case her resources would be severely strained no?

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## AgentOrange

Nihonjin1051 said:


> *thinks of Pirates of the Caribbean*
> 
> "There she blows, matey, shiver me timber.."
> 
> LOL



I don't think that's an actual quote from Pirates of the Caribbean.

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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> OK that makes more sense and is more inline with the article I read. The part about strategic chokepoints. Which is still a blockade, by the way.
> 
> In which case, how much of the navy would the US have to devote to enforce such a "non-blockade" according to you? Considering, as leveraged buyout pointed out, that many nations have far more to lose by stopping trade with China than listening to the US? China is no "axis of evil" country that everyone can easily gang up on with minimal economic fallout. The USN would have to search/check every ship that sailed by in which case her resources would be severely strained no?



We are going to make an assumption that this isn't a US vs the Entire World scenario. If it was then it would be useless to try as we''d have far more militaries to worry about other than just China. We going to blockade the entire planet?

Let's make the assumption that most of the world powers are with us.


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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> We are going to make an assumption that this isn't a US vs the Entire World scenario. If it was then it would be useless to try as we''d have far more militaries to worry about other than just China. We going to blockade the entire planet?
> 
> Let's make the assumption that most of the world powers are with us.



The more likely assumption is that at least some of China's major trading partners will not take sides. As I said, China is not as easily isolated as Iran or Syria. In which case, a more realistic scenario is that militarily, it's mainly the US vs China whilst economically, a lot of world powers are going to sit it out.

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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> The more likely assumption is that at least some of China's major trading partners will not take sides. As I said, China is not as easily isolated as Iran or Syria. In which case, a more realistic scenario is that militarily, it's mainly the US vs China whilst economically, a lot of world powers are going to sit it out.



So when we call them up and say don't send any of your ships to China...to "sit it out" does that mean they keep their ships in port...or does sit it out mean they do business as usual. It's going to be hard to "sit it out".

And if they send their trade ships to China...what options do you think the US really has? The US Navy going to start ramming ships and sending them to the bottom?? I don't think so. Blockades in the 21st century start and end with a phone call.


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## TaiShang

Peter C said:


> Let's make the assumption that most of the world powers are with us.



How come? Even in Syria, not most of the world powers are with you. 

In Iran, Turkey stabbed you in the back by cutting secret oil deals with Tehran. 

I guess China has a lot more leverage than Syria and Iran do to convince most of the world powers to stay at least neutral in the case of a high-seas/chokepoints blockade. 

Even on the issue of Ukraine, the West is not on the same page.

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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> So when we call them up and say don't send any of your ships to China...to "sit it out" does that mean they keep their ships in port...or does sit it out mean they do business as usual. It's going to be hard to "sit it out".
> 
> And if they send their trade ships to China...what options do you think the US really has? The US Navy going to start ramming ships and sending them to the bottom?? I don't think so. Blockades in the 21st century start and end with a phone call.



IMO, some of them will still send their ships to China regardless of the fact the US is the one on the other end. Or China might use ships flagged under other countries. Unless the US sends some to the bottom, it won't work.

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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> IMO, some of them will still send their ships to China regardless of the fact the US is the one on the other end. Or China might use ships flagged under other countries. Unless the US sends some to the bottom, it won't work.



So now we get back to the original "blockade" question. What purpose would it serve the US to have ships in a ring blockading China? What exactly would they do? They aren't going to ram anybody so do they just say "boo" on loud speakers and hope the ships turn around??

Now do you see why I have been saying this whole blockade talk is nonsense?


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## Steakhouse

Globalization render naval blockade on any nation will affecting many nations included the nation subject to the naval blockade.


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## AgentOrange

LeveragedBuyout said:


> I've been arguing for some time that this was an opportunistic deal for China, not one that was critical for it. China and Russia had been negotiating for years on price, and it's not coincidence that suddenly there was movement in the deal in the wake of the Crimea sanctions. It's not unreasonable to make an educated guess that China was able to exploit Russia's desperation in order to negotiate a good price. Until we have the details (and we may never have the details), we'll never know for sure.
> 
> But there is one other factor, about which I've been pounding the table incessantly on PDF: China simply doesn't need Russian energy, and is already extremely well diversified, which provides it with even more negotiating leverage. Do you think Saudi Arabia, Angola, Iran, Oman, Iraq, etc. would feel bound by any US sanctions against China, when China is such a major source of revenue for them? Yeah, I didn't think so, either. And with the Silk Road 2.0 project, a naval blockade becomes even less effective in terms of blocking the energy flow.
> 
> View attachment 149901
> 
> 
> Since coal comprises the majority of energy production, and coal is fairly simple to source, that's one big obstacle for an embargo/blockade. Then there's the question of gas and oil, which again, would be extremely difficult to cut off to reach China's pain point:
> 
> View attachment 149891
> 
> 
> View attachment 149895
> 
> 
> Not to mention the domestic sources of energy yet to be tapped by China:
> 
> Oil
> View attachment 149892
> 
> 
> Gas
> View attachment 149894
> 
> 
> Not only are sources of energy well-diversified, but so are distribution channels:
> 
> View attachment 149897
> 
> 
> Russia is icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Good for China, but again, this is an opportunistic move, not a strategic move.



Perhaps the LNG pipelines with Russia aren't a matter of life and death for China but given China's heavy dependence on Australian gas (an Australia that could be pressured to stop shipping), IMO, the gas deals between China and Russia still ameliorate some of China's security concerns. Very informative post, btw. I had no idea Qatar played such a huge role in China's LNG acquisition.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Steakhouse said:


> Globalization render naval blockade on any nation will affecting many nations included the nation subject to the naval blockade.



Even Samoa?


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## Steakhouse

Peter C said:


> Even Samoa?





Even Martian


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## senheiser

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Easy enough. Numbers are for 2013, and the gap is only growing.
> 
> *Population*
> China: 1,357m
> Russia: 143.5m
> Ratio: 9.45x
> 
> *GDP*
> China: $9.2tn
> Russia: $2.1tn
> Ratio: 4.38x
> 
> *Defense Spending (IISS)*
> China: $112.2bn
> Russia: $68.2bn
> Ratio: 1.64x
> 
> We've established that Russia is an economic, demographic, and military dwarf compared to China. Now let's establish the "partner" in the "junior partner" claim. Russia's main economic relationship with China is through energy resources:
> 
> View attachment 148721
> 
> 
> This is the same relationship that China has with Africa, and I doubt you would consider Africa to be a peer. Indeed, this asymmetrical trade relationship will only get worse for Russia as its defense exports to China decline and its energy exports increase because of the approximately $400bn deal you helpfully highlighted. And China relies on Russian oil for less than 10% of its needs, putting it in a strong position to dictate terms.
> 
> As far as shaping the world order, it is Russia that joined China's SCO, not the other way around.
> 
> In short, does Russia need China more than China needs Russia? If yes, that means it is the junior partner. Tell me, other than energy, in what way does China need Russia? It is already an economic superpower. It already has veto power on the UNSC. It has its own self-sufficient defense industry. China has immense leverage over Russia, but I see no symmetrical Russian leverage with China.
> 
> That's my case, now please present yours. How are China and Russia equal allies? Please be so kind as to quantify your answer, as I have done.



how are America equal partners to everyone else? why does america need germany and japan? korea? saudi arabia? philliphnes? vietnam? poland? all countries who have not only smaller economy and population but also less gdp per capita while russian gdp per capita is higher than chinas.

You cant be a superpower if you have no allies, see at japan how their route turned out. You cant just except that your economy will just surpass the top dog and except everyone will follow.
Its always funny to see american hypocrisy talking about other countries.



> This is the same relationship that China has with Africa, and I doubt you would consider Africa to be a peer.


except for that russian economy is as big as the whole continent africa and has 10 times less people. Therefor china has access to 1 single entity instead of various different countries



> And China relies on Russian oil for less than 10% of its needs, putting it in a strong position to dictate terms.


that will soon chance its already 10% and it will increase



> In short, does Russia need China more than China needs Russia? If yes, that means it is the junior partner.


and why do you think how western countries treat russia in their concept? Equals? At least with china russia can be sure its chinas only big partner everyone else has smaller economy whos allying with china and japan and other g7 countries sure wont switch sides.



> Tell me, other than energy, in what way does China need Russia?


again why does america need the various countries who are poorer?

You should ratehr ask the question why shouldnt china need russia? Is it like china can choose and can except Europe, Canada, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Australia, Indian and Korea wanting to become Chinas allies?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-ap...ldviews/files/2013/07/china-vs-usa.jpg&w=1484

@TaiShang @AgentOrange

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## senheiser

LeveragedBuyout said:


> I've been arguing for some time that this was an opportunistic deal for China, not one that was critical for it. China and Russia had been negotiating for years on price, and it's not coincidence that suddenly there was movement in the deal in the wake of the Crimea sanctions. It's not unreasonable to make an educated guess that China was able to exploit Russia's desperation in order to negotiate a good price. Until we have the details (and we may never have the details), we'll never know for sure.
> 
> But there is one other factor, about which I've been pounding the table incessantly on PDF: China simply doesn't need Russian energy, and is already extremely well diversified, which provides it with even more negotiating leverage. Do you think Saudi Arabia, Angola, Iran, Oman, Iraq, etc. would feel bound by any US sanctions against China, when China is such a major source of revenue for them? Yeah, I didn't think so, either. And with the Silk Road 2.0 project, a naval blockade becomes even less effective in terms of blocking the energy flow.
> 
> View attachment 149901
> 
> 
> Since coal comprises the majority of energy production, and coal is fairly simple to source, that's one big obstacle for an embargo/blockade. Then there's the question of gas and oil, which again, would be extremely difficult to cut off to reach China's pain point:
> 
> View attachment 149891
> 
> 
> View attachment 149895
> 
> 
> Not to mention the domestic sources of energy yet to be tapped by China:
> 
> Oil
> View attachment 149892
> 
> 
> Gas
> View attachment 149894
> 
> 
> Not only are sources of energy well-diversified, but so are distribution channels:
> 
> View attachment 149897
> 
> 
> Russia is icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Good for China, but again, this is an opportunistic move, not a strategic move.


all sources which will be shipped and are more expensive than russian oil and gas from pipelines

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## AgentOrange

senheiser said:


> how are America equal partners to everyone else? why does america need germany and japan? korea? saudi arabia? philliphnes? vietnam? poland? all countries who have not only smaller economy and population but also less gdp per capita while russian gdp per capita is higher than chinas.
> 
> You cant be a superpower if you have no allies, see at japan how their route turned out. You cant just except that your economy will just surpass the top dog and except everyone will follow.
> Its always funny to see american hypocrisy talking about other countries.
> 
> 
> except for that russian economy is as big as the whole continent africa and has 10 times less people. Therefor china has access to 1 single entity instead of various different countries
> 
> 
> that will soon chance its already 10% and it will increase
> 
> 
> and why do you think how western countries treat russia in their concept? Equals? At least with china russia can be sure its chinas only big partner everyone else has smaller economy whos allying with china and japan and other g7 countries sure wont switch sides.
> 
> 
> again why does america need the various countries who are poorer?
> 
> You should ratehr ask the question why shouldnt china need russia? Is it like china can choose and can except Europe, Canada, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Australia, Indian and Korea wanting to become Chinas allies?
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-ap...ldviews/files/2013/07/china-vs-usa.jpg&w=1484
> 
> @TaiShang @AgentOrange



When I and many other Chinese people refer to "equal" relationships we don't mean that both countries have the same stats - i.e. equal in economic size or population, etc. It's not an issue of pure comparison in which case there would be no "equal" relationships by that parameter. Russia and China do business as equals because both nations are viable poles in a multipolar world and both nations acknowledge each others spheres of interest and as well as core national interests. Furthermore, they're neighbors that share a long border and neither are going anywhere. We've had brief and violent border issues decades ago and both nations realized how utterly counterproductive and idiotic those were. And decades later, the Sino/Russian border is one China's most peaceful. 

IMO, a lot of westerners falsely view the China/Russian relationship through the lens of America/England or America/random small European country because that's the only way some westerners can conceive of interaction between nation states - i.e. dominant vs dominated. This is patently wrong because the former is a relationship built on respect and the latter is a master/slave relationship. 

China can have an equal relationship with Russia because they both share the same political, strategic, economic, and possibly military goals/ambitions. The United States, as the sole superpower, can simply not have an "equal" relationship because a stated aim of American policy is to brook no "peer competitor." Just my two cents.

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## LeveragedBuyout

senheiser said:


> how are America equal partners to everyone else? why does america need germany and japan? korea? saudi arabia? philliphnes? vietnam? poland? all countries who have not only smaller economy and population but also less gdp per capita while russian gdp per capita is higher than chinas.
> 
> You cant be a superpower if you have no allies, see at japan how their route turned out. You cant just except that your economy will just surpass the top dog and except everyone will follow.
> Its always funny to see american hypocrisy talking about other countries.
> 
> 
> except for that russian economy is as big as the whole continent africa and has 10 times less people. Therefor china has access to 1 single entity instead of various different countries
> 
> 
> that will soon chance its already 10% and it will increase
> 
> 
> and why do you think how western countries treat russia in their concept? Equals? At least with china russia can be sure its chinas only big partner everyone else has smaller economy whos allying with china and japan and other g7 countries sure wont switch sides.
> 
> 
> again why does america need the various countries who are poorer?
> 
> You should ratehr ask the question why shouldnt china need russia? Is it like china can choose and can except Europe, Canada, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Australia, Indian and Korea wanting to become Chinas allies?
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-ap...ldviews/files/2013/07/china-vs-usa.jpg&w=1484
> 
> @TaiShang @AgentOrange



You raise some fair points. The United States likes to have allies because it provides political cover for its actions, but we have already seen that even when it cannot get the agreement of its allies, it has acted unilaterally. Indeed, after the Korean War, the military contributions of America's allies have been so insignificant that their absence would not have been noted from a military perspective (and in cases like Basra and Helmand, allies have been a burden).

The other main function of these allies is to help with American power projection. We have bases throughout the world that enable us to project power far beyond our borders. Will Russia offer China the opportunity to set up bases on Russian soil?

Finally, none of my posts have had the intention of denigrating Russia. They have merely been a response to the exaggerated notion that now that China and Russia are growing closer, they will be able to challenge America/take over the world. It's not the Chinese/Russian combination that allows this, it's China alone that allows this (much like my first paragraph, China is powerful enough to act unilaterally, but allies provide nice political cover).

I hope someday that the West and Russia can reach some accommodation, but 1,000 years of misunderstandings and hostility imply that we will probably never be allies, due to cultural differences.

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## AgentOrange

LeveragedBuyout said:


> You raise some fair points. The United States likes to have allies because it provides political cover for its actions, but we have already seen that even when it cannot get the agreement of its allies, it has acted unilaterally. Indeed, after the Korean War, the military contributions of America's allies have been so insignificant that their absence would not have been noted from a military perspective (and in cases like Basra and Helmand, allies have been a burden).
> 
> The other main function of these allies is to help with American power projection. We have bases throughout the world that enable us to project power far beyond our borders. Will Russia offer China the opportunity to set up bases on Russian soil?
> 
> Finally, none of my posts have had the intention of denigrating Russia. They have merely been a response to the exaggerated notion that now that China and Russia are growing closer, they will be able to challenge America/take over the world. It's not the Chinese/Russian combination that allows this, it's China alone that allows this (much like my first paragraph, China is powerful enough to act unilaterally, but allies provide nice political cover).
> 
> I hope someday that the West and Russia can reach some accommodation, but 1,000 years of misunderstandings and hostility imply that we will probably never be allies, due to cultural differences.



Good points. I'd like to put forth that I can't conceive of any possibility where China/Russia would take over the world. I think that's a major point where people often talk at/past one another but not talk to one another. IMO, China/Russia desire a multi-polar world where the US would think twice before acting unilaterally or possibly be constrained where that wasn't the case. In such a situation, the US, by sheer military strength, would still be "First amongst equals", even when China has the world's largest economy. 

Also, I personally can't imagine a single situation where China would base soldiers overseas. Short of friendly ports, etc, China has never been "adventurous" overseas.

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> Also, I personally can't imagine a single situation where China would base soldiers overseas. Short of friendly ports, etc, China has never been "adventurous" overseas.



This is going to have to change. Speaking objectively here, in with Chinese interests in mind, I would say that China will need to get used to the idea of protecting its strategic interests abroad. For one, China has an overwhelming clout in Africa, which is the source of China's raw resource imports. Given the instability of that region of the world, and rising security threats , it will be a necessity for China's PLAN, PLA to be sent for expeditionary missions in the event of some kind of exigency. There's almost 1 million overseas Chinese in Africa and these are Chinese National Citizens. I would not trust the security and protection of China's citizens to local African Governments. If we judge the failure of Nigeria's own security forces to protect its own citizens against terrorists such as Boko Haram, imagine of its ability to protect Chinese minorities' rights. 

No, China will have to send its armed forces abroad to advocate their rights. Just as what the United States does for its own. Just as what the JSDF does for our citizens. 

Why 1 million Chinese migrants are building a new empire in Africa – Quartz

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## AgentOrange

Nihonjin1051 said:


> This is going to have to change. Speaking objectively here, in with Chinese interests in mind, I would say that China will need to get used to the idea of protecting its strategic interests abroad. For one, China has an overwhelming clout in Africa, which is the source of China's raw resource imports. Given the instability of that region of the world, and rising security threats , it will be a necessity for China's PLAN, PLA to be sent for expeditionary missions in the event of some kind of exigency. There's almost 1 million overseas Chinese in Africa and these are Chinese National Citizens. I would not trust the security and protection of China's citizens to local African Governments. If we judge the failure of Nigeria's own security forces to protect its own citizens against terrorists such as Boko Haram, imagine of its ability to protect Chinese minorities' rights.
> 
> No, China will have to send its armed forces abroad to advocate their rights. Just as what the United States does for its own. Just as what the JSDF does for our citizens.
> 
> Why 1 million Chinese migrants are building a new empire in Africa – Quartz



I agree with you and we saw that with the mass evacuation of Chinese nationals from Libya. I still don't know how permanent overseas bases would be worth the political and economic costs associated with it. China's global interests are trade driven whereas the United States' global interests are comprehensive.

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> I agree with you and we saw that with the mass evacuation of Chinese nationals from Libya. I still don't know how permanent overseas bases would be worth the political and economic costs associated with it. China's global interests are trade driven whereas the United States' global interests are comprehensive.



Developing China's own military bases abroad is only a natural course of action given its growing global imprint. Perhaps what China can do in the mean time is to initiate agreements with host countries to allow the Chinese Embassy in said country to host a specified number of Chinese PLA units, i don't know maybe a battalion or so strong. This should be emphasized for nations that have a considerable number of Chinese expats. For example, Angola (has over 260,000 Chinese expats), South Africa (has over 300,000 expats), etc.

I mean, if these nations are benefiting / receiving multi-billion dollar rewards with a trade with China, receiving multibillion dollar infrastructure project loans form China, they should be prepared to make some concessions.

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## TaiShang

senheiser said:


> how are America equal partners to everyone else? why does america need germany and japan? korea? saudi arabia? philliphnes? vietnam? poland? all countries who have not only smaller economy and population but also less gdp per capita while russian gdp per capita is higher than chinas.



Besides that, China does not share a similar view of the world with the US when it comes to inter-state relations.

China upholds equality and non-intervention while the US is all for bullying and lecturing from a higher moral/technical ground.

China and Russia are equal partners and and there is nothing like one side imposing their will upon the other against the other's consent.

Geopolitics, by the way, arrests both nations in one way or another. But this does not make unequal relationship. What *Leverage *stresses are geopolitical realities on the ground. But he misses the point that China, as much as Russia, if not more, is under the influence of geopolitical conditions some of them it controls, some it hardly does.



senheiser said:


> that will soon chance its already 10% and it will increase



Agreed. Russia's share in China's energy import is growing and I expect it to climb to number two position after Saudi Arabia in terms of crude.



senheiser said:


> At least with china russia can be sure its chinas only big partner everyone else has smaller economy whos allying with china and japan and other g7 countries sure wont switch sides.



Russia is not a junior partner. Period. Geostrategically, Russia is the most important partner today. An equal partner, regardless of scales of economy or sizes of population. Greater business with US or Japan does not make them strategic partners; in fact, China and US are at each others' throats, diplomatically. There is no strategic trust, even a semblance of it, between the two. Ever since China turned down the G2 offer, it is, figuratively, on US' strategic chopping block.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

President Obama brought a climate agreement back from his trip to Beijing last week, and Democrats and the media advertise it as a triumphant step in the U.S.-China relationship. At the weekend, he was in Brisbane for a G-20 meeting where he piled very effectively into Vladimir Putin, according to reports.

When we take a closer look at Obama’s Asian journey, we find Americans in deep trouble across the Pacific, and the guy who gets tough with the Russian leader elicits mostly shrugs. No amount of happy talk can change these realties.

*Related: GOP Leaders Fume Over Obama’s Climate Deal with China*

In truth, Obama’s days in Beijing, including a summit with President Xi Jinping, had more defeat than victory in them. Bring the cameras in close: We watch as the U.S. reaches its limits with the Chinese, even as China’s ties to other nations, notably Russia, power on with extraordinary momentum.

There is a simple way to put this: When Washington speaks to Asians now it is the past talking plaintively to the future. With the rest of the region abuzz about all that it’s getting done for itself, nagging China and other Asia nations about America’s once-unchallenged primacy in the Pacific is a certain loser.

The press pictures coming out of this trip, which included a gathering of leaders under the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation banner told a truer story. Obama was at a complete loss in the presence of the Russian president. Plenty of time with Xi, but both of them avoided eye contact every time a shutter snapped.

Bad atmospherics, then. While Xi and Putin put in strong performances, according to my sources in attendance, the American president was caught up in a mission abroad so carefully stage-managed you could all but read the choreography marks on the floor. It’s hardly a surprise that nothing significant was done.

*Related: China Seeks Greater Role in Afghanistan with Peace Talks*

What about that climate pact Xi and Obama signed? The American leader committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions by roughly a quarter by 2025, while Xi agreed to stop the _growth_ of China’s emissions by 2030. “Landmark agreement,” _The New York Times_ reported, a “signature achievement.”

Wait a minute. One, while Obama agreed to quicken the pace of U.S. reductions, we’ll have to see how this plays on Capitol Hill. And China’s target is woefully short of anything remotely effective, climate scientists were quick to say. It’s increasingly clear we don’t have enough time for this sort of incremental, off-in-the-distance non-reduction target.

Two, the Chinese leadership and the CEOs at American power companies are going to wake up in, say, 2019 and fret that they aren’t pacing a bilateral pact signed five years earlier—as in, “We better not annoy those Americans,” or, “What will Beijing say if we don’t move faster?”
Risible. In my read, this agreement was an act of charity on Xi’s part, the American sherpas having said, “Our leader has to go home with _something,_ please.”

*Related: China’s Xi, Japan’s Abe Hold Landmark Meeting*

Obama cut a deal whereby Chinese and American planes and naval vessels can better avoid confrontations off the mainland’s coast. A few market-opening measures of interest to high-tech manufacturers were signed. All good.

But bits and pieces—salad croutons served as the main course. A uniformed officer at the Pentagon could’ve managed the first agreement and an assistant secretary at Commerce the second.

As advanced before Air Force One took off, Obama was to push forward the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the administration’s (overly) ambitious trade agreement, which pointedly excludes China. Now we hear not a peep, and no surprise: The TPP—as easily predictable—is no further today than it was before this presidential journey.

This may come over as a harsh assessment. It is more an expression of alarm on the way to fear as the 21st century arrives in the western Pacific. Put Obama’s take- home next to China’s and Russia’s and it starts to look as if our leadership is well on the way to Nowheresville (a little-known atoll off the coast of Saipan).

*Related: Landmark China/Hong-Kong Stock Trading Scheme Starts Nov. 17*

For months before Obama traveled, Washington fought Beijing’s idea of an Asian-managed lending institution intended to rival the Asian Development Bank. This mistake—and it was one—was all too obvious in Beijing, where the Chinese boasted of the up-and-running Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, its $50 billion capitalization, and its 20 (and counting) members.

Just to make things perfectly clear, Xi announced during Obama’s visit that China was putting $40 billion into a new Silk Road Fund to finance development projects in the seven Central Asian republics.

Stay with me. We’re only part way through the list.
In Brisbane, Obama sat and listened as China pressed its fellow BRICS—the middle-income group comprised of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa—to move swiftly to establish the New Development Bank, which will finance infrastructure and make available an emergency reserve fund.

It isn’t clear yet whether western nations will be welcome in either the BRICS bank or the AIIB; in the latter case, Washington had to lobby Canberra very hard to keep Australia from joining. Like the AIIB, the BRICS bank is also intended to preclude western leadership and control.

*Related: Obama and Putin Are Odd Couple at Beijing Summit*

Now we come to the Russian deals. Xi and Putin announced a second natural gas agreement, this one worth $325 billion, following the unprecedented $400 billion deal struck in March. By 2020, Russia will sell China more gas than it now sells Europe, and the supply is big enough and priced such that it could threaten U.S. sales in South Korea, Japan, and elsewhere in the region.

Numerous other agreements came atop this. Most important among them, Russian petroleum sales to China will now double.

This is where sanctions against Russia and a refusal to consider Xi’s persistent, always courteous requests for “a new great power relationship” are getting Washington. The rise of the non-West was destined to be a prominent feature of our century, but the U.S. could not have done more to propel it if it tried.

*Related: Drop in Gas Prices Should Continue to Show Up in Economy*
“The use the U.S. makes of the privileges she enjoys for providing the world's reserve currency are being increasingly contested,” Ken Courtis, a former Goldman Sachs man and a longtime observer of Asian affairs, said in a long interview carried on Australian Broadcasting over the weekend. “Their misuse has, among other things, pushed China and Russia into a tight strategic partnership.”

One can lay this at Obama’s feet because he has little experience managing foreign policy and no gravitas when he is in the room with leaders such as Xi and Putin. At home and abroad, he’s simply out of his depth.

More fundamentally, however, the policy-setting apparatus in Washington, from State, Defense, and intelligence to Commerce and the trade side simply cannot accept that America has to play a new kind of baseball if it is to keep pace with a world voracious to advance beyond old structures, institutions, and relationships.

How China and Russia Out-Maneuvered Obama in Asia | The Fiscal Times

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## TaiShang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> When Washington speaks to Asians now it is the past talking plaintively to the future. With the rest of the region abuzz about all that it’s getting done for itself, nagging China and other Asia nations about America’s once-unchallenged primacy in the Pacific is a certain loser.



The pivot did more harm than help, as it seems. Certain small countries jumped in excitement but it has in fact pushed China to take measures that it would have otherwise taken in the 10-20 years down the road.

Besides, what was the rationale to announce a pivot in the middle of an economic crisis? Who is that smart guy in the US foreign department who thought that foreign policy can be singularly done with military? Did the US ever had a chance (and will it ever have in the foreseeable future) to contain China while it just got more important for the economic future of so many nations across the world?

US leadership is no longer the most sought-after player in any international gathering in Asia because it has very little to offer apart from sending more military assets to be hosted by some island states. US represents the rigid and not moving past while China offers plans and future potentials. China has a vision US has a huge ideological and Euro-centric baggage.

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## vsdave2302

No they can not. Russia itself is under sanction. China is hostile towards all of his neighbor except Pakistan But Pakistan itself depends a lot on US aid. India and Japan can not support china against US. So there is absolutely no question of china and Russia put to gather can wipe out the influence of US from Asia. Relation of Russia and China has not been very good in past nor in present.

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## kyle Chiang

vsdave2302 said:


> No they can not. Russia itself is under sanction. China is hostile towards all of his neighbor except Pakistan But Pakistan itself depends a lot on US aid. India and Japan can not support china against US. So there is absolutely no question of china and Russia put to gather can wipe out the influence of US from Asia. Relation of Russia and China has not been very good in past nor in present.


"China is hostile towards all of his neighbor except Pakistan"?

Your media really succeed in brainwash.But we have better relations in education,economic,research and many areas than India with our most neighbors and other countries.Even Sri Lanka prefer China.Don't you know China has better status in international world.Respect is more valuable than boast.

If only buying and buying without doing anything to hold out our cake,China will be welcome like India,all countries will say China is a "super power" "great friend" but we will never achieve it.

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## Nike

the answer is clear, because it's Obama,

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## TaiShang

kyle Chiang said:


> "China is hostile towards all of his neighbor except Pakistan"?
> 
> Your media really succeed in brainwash.But we have better relations in education,economic,research and many areas than India with our most neighbors and other countries.Even Sri Lanka prefer China.Don't you know China has better status in international world.Respect is more valuable than boast.
> 
> If only buying and buying without doing anything to get your cake,China will be welcome like India,all countries will say China is a "super power" "great friend" but we will never achieve it.



I guess we just need to leave that Indian alone, bro.

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## vsdave2302

kyle Chiang said:


> "China is hostile towards all of his neighbor except Pakistan"?
> 
> Your media really succeed in brainwash.But we have better relations in education,economic,research and many areas than India with our most neighbors and other countries.Even Sri Lanka prefer China.Don't you know China has better status in international world.Respect is more valuable than boast.
> 
> If only buying and buying without doing anything to hold out our cake,China will be welcome like India,all countries will say China is a "super power" "great friend" but we will never achieve it.




Your information is scanned information from CPC. You are not worth arguing. Educate yourself from some neutral source of information. We shall discuss then.


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## kyle Chiang

TaiShang said:


> I guess we just need to leave that Indian alone, bro.


Thank your for your advice.

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## TaiShang

China investing in strategic partner Russia will financially benefit both - Global Times

Amid intensified Western sanctions on Russia and tumbling global energy prices, the Russian financial system is undergoing enormous difficulties. Its accelerating capital flight has led to a steep drop in the value of the Russian ruble, and meanwhile, its fiscal revenue has considerably decreased due to the plunge in oil prices. 

In this context, China's extensive investment in Russia has drawn much attention. China now holds Russian bonds and exchangeable monetary assets and also makes direct investments in Russia. *Some observers hold that as the Russian economy is now in a harder position, risks increase for Chinese investment. If massive losses occur, it will in turn affect the safety of Chinese financial institutions and may even spark a systemic crisis, they say.* 

*Should we worry about being implicated in the difficulties of Russian finance?* All investment involves risk. International investment in particular involves special risks that result from political, price and contract default factors. *While it's necessary to watch these risks, more attention is needed on strategic interests.*

*Russia is a strategic collaborative partner of China and naturally deserves China's help. In the international landscape, China is under a lot of strategic pressure and needs to stabilize its strategic partner to share the burden. To this end, China's helping a strategic partner is somewhat helping itself. *

When some eurozone countries were disturbed by the sovereign debt crisis, it was China that acquired their bonds to help stabilize their markets. However, in the aftermath of the crisis when these bonds appreciated dramatically, some Western investors even came to China in hope of buying back the bonds that they had tried hard to avoid. Didn't they know that things always change?

*Such is the case with China's investment in Russia, as it will definitely appreciate when the Russian economy has passed through its difficulties and the world economy returns to the growth track.*

As an important part of the global economy, China's decisions will affect the way that things proceed. Where China deploys its over $4 trillion foreign exchange reserves would hence exert a tremendous influence on the global market, which provides a greater security guarantee for China's financial system.

It is businesspeople that haggle over the returns of every investment deal while strategists always eye the ultimate strategic gains. China can only stay stable with stability in Russia ensured. In this case, giving a hand to Russia is also helping China itself. 

*What will China encounter on the international stage if it lets Western countries heighten sanctions on Russia and drag the country into chaos? What kind of cost will China have to pay for this? This cannot be matched against the losses that China may suffer in its investment in Russia. On the other hand, if China's help earns Russia's trust and makes it a reliable energy and resource supplier as well as a military strategic partner, how much would such a deal be worth?*

The author is deputy director of the Institute of World Development at the Development Research Center of the State Council. opinion@globaltimes.com.cn

@vostok , @senheiser , @terranMarine , @Edison Chen , @Nihonjin1051 , @LeveragedBuyout , @Chinese-Dragon , @tranquilium , @Keel , _et al._

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## kyle Chiang

vsdave2302 said:


> Your information is scanned information from CPC. You are not worth arguing. Educate yourself from some neutral source of information. We shall discuss then.


Okay,Indian always think themselves are wiser.

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## Krate M

To my fellow Indian friend, the fall of dollar is coming. China and Russia are taking steps towards that. Probably the gold standard will be restored.
It was very interesting to see that "climate deal". Funny thing is that the Europeans and US after being the biggest polluters for a long time, now want to force India and China to cut down emissions, forcing us to slow down industrial growth. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

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## jkroo

kyle Chiang said:


> Okay,Indian always think themselves are wiser.


Are you afraid of hotly pursue and fierce attack tactics? If yes then I also advice you dont quote their post.  If no, you could ruin your life by discussing with them. Leave them alone is a good option.

Back to topic guys.

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## Aepsilons

Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ? 

@SvenSvensonov , @LeveragedBuyout , @AMDR , @F-22Raptor , @Peter C , @C130 , @TruthSeeker , @Death.By.Chocolate , @MastanKhan , @qamar1990 et al. Can you please give your input?


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## kyle Chiang

jkroo said:


> Are you afraid of hotly pursue and fierce attack tactics? If yes then I also advice you dont quote their post.  If no, you could ruin your life by discussing with them. Leave them alone is a good option.
> 
> Back to topic guys.


Sorry，just because I have no time.Byebye,friends.

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## C130

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?
> 
> @SvenSvensonov , @LeveragedBuyout , @AMDR , @F-22Raptor , @Peter C , @C130 , @TruthSeeker , @Death.By.Chocolate , @MastanKhan , @qamar1990 et al. Can you please give your input?




how? pretty sure we have been self destructing since Nixon took office 

just a few points I want to mention from the article

I believe we can reduce our green house emissions by 25% buy 2025, we are burning more and more natural gas instead of coal, we are turning turn more and more to renewables like solar,wind, and geothermal. the electric car revolution is just around the corner IMO...so massive reduction of greenhouse emissions is only natural.

will China do the same???? I think they can if they get serious about it.

the TPP I don't really know what it's all about who it favors and it hurts so I won't say anymore

China throwing around billions for development funds and banks good for them, and hopefully they see returns from it 

China and Russia teaming up doesn't worry me


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## MastanKhan

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?
> 
> @SvenSvensonov , @LeveragedBuyout , @AMDR , @F-22Raptor , @Peter C , @C130 , @TruthSeeker , @Death.By.Chocolate , @MastanKhan , @qamar1990 et al. Can you please give your input?



Hi,

Obama cannot do much in this case----. U S military is coming out of two major defeats----and two major failures----defeats in AFG and Iraq---and failures in Libya and Syria---. ISIL came as such a shock that they were clueless as to what to do immediately.

As America is being reminded that the world was a much better and controlled place with Saddam in it---it has an extremely hard time swallowing this bitter pill. Middle east is lost----slowly losing Ukraine---Turkey thumbing its nose at Nato---possibly not a trustworthy nato member anymore----.


The problem is that Russia knows that he U S military---the American soldier cannot fight the Russian soldier anymore----. Russia really wants to have a go at the American soldier---wants to show them what real war is----not like shooting ducks at a farm---like in afg or in Iraq---.

So---the bottomlinne is---what can the U S do---nothing. The message for japan, Vietnam, philipines---chose your battles and sides carefully---. Don't let pride cloud the judgement---.

Remember---you have to live next door to china---and not the U S.

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## AMDR

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?
> 
> @SvenSvensonov , @LeveragedBuyout , @AMDR , @F-22Raptor , @Peter C , @C130 , @TruthSeeker , @Death.By.Chocolate , @MastanKhan , @qamar1990 et al. Can you please give your input?


I don't think he is intentionally trying to destroy the the U.S., I just think that he partly has no idea what he is doing in some cases. While the US economy is still recovering from 2008, there are still roadblocks ahead.

As for foreign policy, his handling of the Ukraine Crisis has been pretty good in my opinion. He has reassured Eastern NATO allies that we will stand by our Article 5 responsibilities if Invoked. He put sanctions on Russia for the annexation of Crimea and pressured the EU to do the same to substantial effectiveness (Ruble Nosedive)

As for China, he is (to my knowledge) pushing for better relations and cooperation (counter-climate change agenda), which is good.

He armed the Syrian rebels (FSA) which in my opinion is ridiculous considering some FSA members may defect to ISIS, bringing their American-supplied weapons with them.

While Obama is definelty not one of our greatest presidents, he is not our worst.

Did China and Russia out-maneuver Obama in Asia ? Maybe. Everything is to obscure. Although China is scoring on some cheap Russian gas deals right now to due to sanctions. The country who comes out on top of the crisis in Ukraine won't be NATO or Russia, it will be China.

Keep in mind I try not to follow politics, so the points I presented are probably off.

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## LeveragedBuyout

TaiShang said:


> China investing in strategic partner Russia will financially benefit both - Global Times



No doubt about it, China can only gain from this situation. Russia becomes more dependent on China, and China can in turn use the opportunity to secure resources that Russia had previously intended for European use (and moreover, China can probably secure these resources at favorable prices). But the author is correct, the risk should not be ignored. Chinese capital can go a long way towards softening the economic damage wrought on Russia, but it's unlikely that China will be able to replace the lost capital entirely. Russia is deeply integrated into the European market, so in the short to medium term, Russia will have to just endure it.

I have been impressed by China's determination to stabilize the financial system in the past 20 years. I remember when the 1997 crisis hit, everyone was on edge, wondering if China would also devalue; but it did not. And in 2008, when the outlook appeared grim, China did its part to stimulate demand with a gigantic fiscal stimulus package, which, together with the American stimulus package, probably helped avert an outright depression.

In a strange sense, even though it goes against American interests, China's actions make me more optimistic that China is indeed starting to share the burden of maintaining stability in the global system. Cheers.

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## LeveragedBuyout

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?
> 
> Can you please give your input?



To say that Obama is intentionally destroying the US would be ascribing to Obama a level of intelligence that he does not possess. The true explanation can be found in Hanlon's Razor:

Hanlon's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The man is simply a clown. He doesn't know how to run the economy, FBI, the IRS, the healthcare system, the NSA, the immigration system, the energy sector, the Defense Department, the Democratic Party, or anything else except, perhaps, for a community in Chicago.



madokafc said:


> the answer is clear, because it's Obama,



Exactly.



TaiShang said:


> Besides, what was the rationale to announce a pivot in the middle of an economic crisis? Who is that smart guy in the US foreign department who thought that foreign policy can be singularly done with military?



This is an interesting point, because the US State Department hasn't been in control of foreign policy for some time (and deservedly so, after the pure incompetence of the 1990s through Colin Powell's backstabbing of the Bush Administration). Foreign policy is largely run out of the Defense Department these days, so it's natural that US foreign policy must be interpreted through a security prism. Obama is a man without much intellect, and has even less real world executive experience, so he is easily manipulated.

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## qamar1990

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?
> 
> @SvenSvensonov , @LeveragedBuyout , @AMDR , @F-22Raptor , @Peter C , @C130 , @TruthSeeker , @Death.By.Chocolate , @MastanKhan , @qamar1990 et al. Can you please give your input?


which policies are you speaking of??


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## TaiShang

LeveragedBuyout said:


> But the author is correct, the risk should not be ignored.



The point made by the author on strategic return is also very interesting. Russia is just too big to fail in China's strategic calculations. If it takes a bailout, so be it, in my view.

But, Russia's economy is surprisingly resilient and, probably, the sanctions will reinforce the resilience in the long run. It is already decoupling from resource-based economy although some 30+% of GDP still comes from energy.

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## TaiShang

*Obama offers same old vision of division *

By Hannay Richards

Speaking at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, on Saturday, US President Barack Obama gave what at least one person has called "the historic Brisbane speech". It was hardly that, but certainly it had one eye on history as it was clearly intended to be both part of the cement fixing Obama's place in history before he steps through the White House door for the last time, and a reassertion of the United States' leadership credentials after China's successful week in the spotlight hosting the Asia-pacific Economic Cooperation meetings in Beijing.

*Unlike his performance in the Chinese capital last week, during which he cultivated the image of being just one of the boys hanging out in the local neighborhood, Obama's speech in Brisbane was intended to tell the world that the US is still firmly in the driving seat, and to tell future historians that it was Obama who ensured the US was behind the wheel during the Asia-Pacific century, thanks to his "pivot" policy.*

Obama claimed that he was in town to talk about "the future that we can build together, here in the Asia-Pacific region".

*Yet the future he envisioned was clearly the US way or the highway, or as Obama put it, a choice between conflict and cooperation.*

Most people would say that's a no-brainer, let's all work together for a better future. Indeed, that was what appeared to have been the consensus at the APEC summit, where the regional leaders stated in their final declaration, "We commit to working together to shape the future through Asia-Pacific partnership in the spirit of mutual respect and trust, inclusiveness, and win-win cooperation."

*But, as with most things when you get tired of reading the small print, there was a catch in Obama's speech. What he actually meant by cooperation is not everyone pulling together so the boat doesn't end up on the rocks that all the disputes are about, but everyone pulling together to follow a course set by the US in favor of its own interests.*

Although Obama claimed the US believes that nations and peoples have the right to live in security and peace, it was hard to ignore the subliminal message that it is only the US that has some god-like ability to grant these, even though there are one or two nations and peoples who would probably argue that in using what power it has, the US has only bought them turmoil and violence.

*He asserted that an effective security order for Asia must be based "not on spheres of influence, or coercion, or intimidation where big nations bully the small", yet those should be laid at the door of the White House, as it is the US' insistence on such tactics to promote its own dominance that have resulted in the tensions and uncertainties plaguing the region.* The alliances that Obama went to great lengths to praise are an inflexible structure that heralds disaster unless adjusted to meet the changing times.

Obama's allusive remarks were clearly aimed at China, whose rise the US is having trouble adapting to. *When Obama did finally get round to naming China, it was to portray the two countries as best buddies, but only when it is acting in accordance with the US' wishes.*

He was happy to praise China's role as a responsible actor in the region when the two countries' interests overlap, when it is "cut from the same cloth" as Australia or the US' other regional allies. He was less forthcoming about China's role in the areas where they disagree. The message was clear, if you're not wearing the gang colors you're not welcome to have a say in what the US regards as its area.

*And so there could be no doubts about the message, Obama elaborated how the US will continue to modernize its defense posture across the region, deploying more of its "most advanced military capabilities to keep the peace and deter aggression" and steadily deepening its engagement in the region "day in and day out".

Then with a straight face he said, "We do this without any territorial claims".*

This after quoting Brisbane's famous son, David Malouf, who has written that the shrinking of distance means "even the Pacific, the largest of oceans, has become a lake", which only served to reinforce the perception that the US considers the Pacific to be its own private lake that others can use only if it chooses to grant them the privilege; a privilege that it will extend exclusively to its friends.

*The overall tone of his speech was another clear indication that the US' self-conceived exceptionalism is nothing more than the hubris that comes with thinking you are better than anyone else. On the surface, Obama appeared to be promoting inclusiveness and friendship, nicely wrapped up as usual with the promotion of values that have universal appeal, but in reality it was a reaffirmation to its allies that the US had not changed tack.*

After the positive vibes given off by the APEC meeting in Beijing, Obama's speech, with its business-as-usual message, was a real a downer. The paucity of imagination shown in the old-school vision of division he presented was in stark contrast to the forward-looking inclusiveness elaborated by Beijing earlier in the week.

But, of course, if the US is to continue to play its leading role in world affairs in the 21st century, it needs a bogeyman to star against, and China is the country that best fits the bill.

@LeveragedBuyout

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## TruthSeeker

Obama is not an "old school" American. He was not raised with the American values that were in force during America's rise to being a leading nation. Rather he is a "world citizen" and believes in universal democratic socialism, hence, "one-worldism". That is, his loyalties are not to current American citizens but rather to the "struggling peoples of the "third world" who have been unfairly exploited by white America and Europe. His policies all reflect this mindset, constrained only by his need to gain and keep political power within the American system, and by his narcissism of being important and famous, himself.

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## TaiShang

TruthSeeker said:


> That is, his loyalties are not to current American citizens but rather to the "*struggling peoples of the "third world" who have been unfairly exploited by white America and Europe.*



Could you elaborate on this, please?

To me Obama is a fail because he picked up where GWB left off, instead of actually changing things (from US foreign policy perspective). 

At least before him, there was a viable democratic youth movement calling for reforming US foreign policy as well as domestic inequalities. With him becoming the president, the movement almost ceased to exist.

Of course, there must be other reasons, like this article mentions:

8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back: How the US Crushed Youth Resistance

Traditionally, young people have energized democratic movements. So it is a major coup for the ruling elite to have created societal institutions that have subdued young Americans and broken their spirit of resistance to domination. 

Young Americans—even more so than older Americans—appear to have acquiesced to the idea that the corporatocracy can completely screw them and that they are helpless to do anything about it. A 2010 Gallup poll asked Americans “Do you think the Social Security system will be able to pay you a benefit when you retire?” Among 18- to 34-years-olds, 76 percent of them said no. Yet despite their lack of confidence in the availability of Social Security for them, few have demanded it be shored up by more fairly payroll-taxing the wealthy; most appear resigned to having more money deducted from their paychecks for Social Security, even though they don’t believe it will be around to benefit them. 

How exactly has American society subdued young Americans? 

*1. Student-Loan Debt.* Large debt—and the fear it creates—is a pacifying force. There was no tuition at the City University of New York when I attended one of its colleges in the 1970s, a time when tuition at many U.S. public universities was so affordable that it was easy to get a B.A. and even a graduate degree without accruing any student-loan debt. While those days are gone in the United States, public universities continue to be free in the Arab world and are either free or with very low fees in many countries throughout the world. The millions of young Iranians who risked getting shot to protest their disputed 2009 presidential election, the millions of young Egyptians who risked their lives earlier this year to eliminate Mubarak, and the millions of young Americans who demonstrated against the Vietnam War all had in common the absence of pacifying huge student-loan debt.

Today in the United States, two-thirds of graduating seniors at four-year colleges have student-loan debt, including over 62 percent of public university graduates. While average undergraduate debt is close to $25,000, I increasingly talk to college graduates with closer to $100,000 in student-loan debt. During the time in one’s life when it should be easiest to resist authority because one does not yet have family responsibilities, many young people worry about the cost of bucking authority, losing their job, and being unable to pay an ever-increasing debt. In a vicious cycle, student debt has a subduing effect on activism, and political passivity makes it more likely that students will accept such debt as a natural part of life. 

*2. Psychopathologizing and Medicating Noncompliance.* In 1955, Erich Fromm, the then widely respected anti-authoritarian leftist psychoanalyst, wrote, “Today the function of psychiatry, psychology and psychoanalysis threatens to become the tool in the manipulation of man.” Fromm died in 1980, the same year that an increasingly authoritarian America elected Ronald Reagan president, and an increasingly authoritarian American Psychiatric Association added to their diagnostic bible (then the DSM-III) disruptive mental disorders for children and teenagers such as the increasingly popular “oppositional defiant disorder” (ODD). The official symptoms of ODD include “often actively defies or refuses to comply with adult requests or rules,” “often argues with adults,” and “often deliberately does things to annoy other people.”

Many of America’s greatest activists including Saul Alinsky (1909–1972), the legendary organizer and author of _Reveille for Radicals _and_ Rules for Radicals_, would today certainly be diagnosed with ODD and other disruptive disorders. Recalling his childhood, Alinsky said, “I never thought of walking on the grass until I saw a sign saying ‘Keep off the grass.’ Then I would stomp all over it.” Heavily tranquilizing antipsychotic drugs (e.g. Zyprexa and Risperdal) are now the highest grossing class of medication in the United States ($16 billion in 2010); a major reason for this, according to the_Journal of the American Medical Association _in 2010, is that many children receiving antipsychotic drugs have nonpsychotic diagnoses such as ODD or some other disruptive disorder (this especially true of Medicaid-covered pediatric patients). 

*3. Schools That Educate for Compliance and Not for Democracy.* Upon accepting the New York City Teacher of the Year Award on January 31, 1990, John Taylor Gatto upset many in attendance by stating: “The truth is that schools don’t really teach anything except how to obey orders. This is a great mystery to me because thousands of humane, caring people work in schools as teachers and aides and administrators, but the abstract logic of the institution overwhelms their individual contributions.” A generation ago, the problem of compulsory schooling as a vehicle for an authoritarian society was widely discussed, but as this problem has gotten worse, it is seldom discussed.

The nature of most classrooms, regardless of the subject matter, socializes students to be passive and directed by others, to follow orders, to take seriously the rewards and punishments of authorities, to pretend to care about things they don’t care about, and that they are impotent to affect their situation. A teacher can lecture about democracy, but schools are essentially undemocratic places, and so democracy is not what is instilled in students. Jonathan Kozol in _The Night Is Dark and I Am Far from Home_ focused on how school breaks us from courageous actions. Kozol explains how our schools teach us a kind of “inert concern” in which “caring”—in and of itself and without risking the consequences of actual action—is considered “ethical.” School teaches us that we are “moral and mature” if we politely assert our concerns, but the essence of school—its demand for compliance—teaches us not to act in a friction-causing manner. 

*4. “No Child Left Behind” and “Race to the Top.” *The corporatocracy has figured out a way to make our already authoritarian schools even more authoritarian. Democrat-Republican bipartisanship has resulted in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, NAFTA, the PATRIOT Act, the War on Drugs, the Wall Street bailout, and educational policies such as “No Child Left Behind” and “Race to the Top.” These policies are essentially standardized-testing tyranny that creates fear, which is antithetical to education for a democratic society. Fear forces students and teachers to constantly focus on the demands of test creators; it crushes curiosity, critical thinking, questioning authority, and challenging and resisting illegitimate authority. In a more democratic and less authoritarian society, one would evaluate the effectiveness of a teacher not by corporatocracy-sanctioned standardized tests but by asking students, parents, and a community if a teacher is inspiring students to be more curious, to read more, to learn independently, to enjoy thinking critically, to question authorities, and to challenge illegitimate authorities. 

*5. Shaming Young People Who Take Education—But Not Their Schooling—Seriously.* In a 2006 survey in the United States, it was found that 40 percent of children between first and third grade read every day, but by fourth grade, that rate declined to 29 percent. Despite the anti-educational impact of standard schools, children and their parents are increasingly propagandized to believe that disliking school means disliking learning. That was not always the case in the United States. Mark Twain famously said, “I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.” Toward the end of Twain’s life in 1900, only 6 percent of Americans graduated high school. Today, approximately 85 percent of Americans graduate high school, but this is good enough for Barack Obama who told us in 2009, “And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It’s not just quitting on yourself, it’s quitting on your country.”

The more schooling Americans get, however, the more politically ignorant they are of America’s ongoing class war, and the more incapable they are of challenging the ruling class. In the 1880s and 1890s, American farmers with little or no schooling created a Populist movement that organized America’s largest-scale working people’s cooperative, formed a People’s Party that received 8 percent of the vote in 1892 presidential election, designed a “subtreasury” plan (that had it been implemented would have allowed easier credit for farmers and broke the power of large banks) and sent 40,000 lecturers across America to articulate it, and evidenced all kinds of sophisticated political ideas, strategies and tactics absent today from America’s well-schooled population. Today, Americans who lack college degrees are increasingly shamed as “losers”; however, Gore Vidal and George Carlin, two of America’s most astute and articulate critics of the corporatocracy, never went to college, and Carlin dropped out of school in the ninth grade. 

*6. The Normalization of Surveillance.* The fear of being surveilled makes a population easier to control. While the National Security Agency (NSA) has received publicity for monitoring American citizen’s email and phone conversations, and while employer surveillance has become increasingly common in the United States, young Americans have become increasingly acquiescent to corporatocracy surveillance because, beginning at a young age, surveillance is routine in their lives. Parents routinely check Web sites for their kid’s latest test grades and completed assignments, and just like employers, are monitoring their children’s computers and Facebook pages. Some parents use the GPS in their children’s cell phones to track their whereabouts, and other parents have video cameras in their homes. Increasingly, I talk with young people who lack the confidence that they can even pull off a party when their parents are out of town, and so how much confidence are they going to have about pulling off a democratic movement below the radar of authorities? 

*7. Television*. In 2009, the Nielsen Company reported that TV viewing in the United States is at an all-time high if one includes the following “three screens”: a television set, a laptop/personal computer, and a cell phone. American children average eight hours a day on TV, video games, movies, the Internet, cell phones, iPods, and other technologies (not including school-related use). Many progressives are concerned about the concentrated control of content by the corporate media, but the mere act of watching TV—regardless of the programming—is the primary pacifying agent (private-enterprise prisons have recognized that providing inmates with cable television can be a more economical method to keep them quiet and subdued than it would be to hire more guards).

Television is a dream come true for an authoritarian society: those with the most money own most of what people see; fear-based television programming makes people more afraid and distrustful of one another, which is good for the ruling elite who depend on a “divide and conquer” strategy; TV isolates people so they are not joining together to create resistance to authorities; and regardless of the programming, TV viewers’ brainwaves slow down, transforming them closer to a hypnotic state that makes it difficult to think critically. While playing a video games is not as zombifying as passively viewing TV, such games have become for many boys and young men their only experience of potency, and this “virtual potency” is certainly no threat to the ruling elite. 

*8. Fundamentalist Religion and Fundamentalist Consumerism*. American culture offers young Americans the “choices” of fundamentalist religion and fundamentalist consumerism. All varieties of fundamentalism narrow one’s focus and inhibit critical thinking. While some progressives are fond of calling fundamentalist religion the “opiate of the masses,” they too often neglect the pacifying nature of America’s other major fundamentalism. Fundamentalist consumerism pacifies young Americans in a variety of ways. Fundamentalist consumerism destroys self-reliance, creating people who feel completely dependent on others and who are thus more likely to turn over decision-making power to authorities, the precise mind-set that the ruling elite loves to see. A fundamentalist consumer culture legitimizes advertising, propaganda, and all kinds of manipulations, including lies; and when a society gives legitimacy to lies and manipulativeness, it destroys the capacity of people to trust one another and form democratic movements. Fundamentalist consumerism also promotes self-absorption, which makes it difficult for the solidarity necessary for democratic movements. 

These are not the only aspects of our culture that are subduing young Americans and crushing their resistance to domination. The food-industrial complex has helped create an epidemic of childhood obesity, depression, and passivity. The prison-industrial complex keeps young anti-authoritarians “in line” (now by the fear that they may come before judges such as the two Pennsylvania ones who took $2.6 million from private-industry prisons to ensure that juveniles were incarcerated). As Ralph Waldo Emerson observed: “All our things are right and wrong together. The wave of evil washes all our institutions alike.”



_Bruce E. Levine is a clinical psychologist and author of Get Up, Stand Up: Uniting Populists, Energizing the Defeated, and Battling the Corporate Elite  (Chelsea Green, 2011). His Web site is www.brucelevine.net_

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## Chinese-Dragon

TruthSeeker said:


> Obama is not an "old school" American. He was not raised with the American values that were in force during America's rise to being a leading nation. Rather he is a "world citizen" and believes in universal democratic socialism, hence, "one-worldism". That is, his loyalties are not to current American citizens but rather to the "struggling peoples of the "third world" who have been unfairly exploited by white America and Europe. His policies all reflect this mindset, constrained only by his need to gain and keep political power within the American system, and by his narcissism of being important and famous, himself.



Very insightful post. 

I wasn't aware that so many Americans see Obama in that way.

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## fallstuff

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Very insightful post.
> 
> I wasn't aware that so many Americans see Obama in that way.



Thus stuff spews out of right wing media, 24/7. This is the conservative line of thinking.

Its either this or that, there is usually no in-between.


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## TruthSeeker

fallstuff said:


> Thus stuff spews out of right wing media, 24/7. This is the conservative line of thinking.




"spews" is a pejorative verb which shows your own bias. This "stuff" (my post) is true, however you try to spin it down.

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## Galad

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?


Answer is Yes.And Obama is not alone,he does not have absolute power.Either all policy-makers in USA are insane or they do it intentionally.No rational beings are capable of following such destructive pollicies for USA(what is left of it) image/clout/influence whatever you name it.

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## fallstuff

TruthSeeker said:


> "spews" is a pejorative verb which shows your own bias. This "stuff" (my post) is true, however you try to spin it down.



You are just echoing the right wingers.

Rush Limbaugh proclaimed after Obama's win that he wants Obama to fail






Your post, word for word is what I have been hearing and reading from the right wing "conservative" media from the day Obama was elected.

I actually don't see anything wrong in it, just find it simply demagogy.


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## Aepsilons

Galad said:


> Answer is Yes.And Obama is not alone,he does not have absolute power.Either all policy-makers in USA are insane or they do it intentionally.No rational beings are capable of following such destructive pollicies for USA(what is left of it) image/clout/influence whatever you name it.



I feel that since he started his presidency in 2008-2009, the focus of his mandate has been liberal social programs; er se, the gay/lesbian/transgender agenda, legalization of homosexual marriages (interestingly enough homosexuals account for less than 1% of the entire US population). His immigration policy is a pathetic failure, and his bailout program? That was questionable.

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## ChineseTiger1986

At their recent meeting the Russian and Chinese defense ministers pointed out that the spectrum of military measures has noticeably expanded and become systemic.

After talks with his Chinese counterpart, the Russian defense minister, Army Gen. Sergei Shoigu, recalled that in May 2014 the two countries successfully held their third consecutive naval exercise, Maritime Cooperation, which saw the two countries' sailors training as part of mixed squadrons of ships for the first time.

"We are planning to conduct another joint naval exercise in the Mediterranean Sea next spring. There are also plans to conduct a joint naval exercise in the Pacific Ocean," said the Russian defense minister.

In 2014 Chinese crews successfully performed at the Tank Biathlon world championship and the Aviadarts international competition, Shoigu recalled. "They demonstrated that the fighting spirit and skills of the Chinese military servicemen are up to the highest standards," said Shoigu, adding that events of this kind "provide a good format for exchanging experience."

"Our cooperation in the military spheres has a great potential, and the Russian side is ready to develop it across the broadest possible spectrum of areas," said the Russian defense minister.

Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.com/news/2014/11/18/russia_china_plan_joint_naval_drills_in_mediterranean_sea_pacific_ocean__41484.html)

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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> the spectrum of military measures has noticeably expanded and become *systemic*.



Systemic is the key word.


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## Aepsilons

Very interesting.


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## terranMarine




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## BuddhaPalm

Do the military exercise right next to Turkey to punish them for supporting the Uighurs.


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## Neptune

It was expected since we were provoking them with air,naval and land exercises at their borders


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## ChineseTiger1986

Neptune said:


> It was expected since we were provoking them with air,naval and land exercises at their borders



Do you mean Russia?

Bro, you might think a bit too much, since it is just a normal drill.


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## cnleio

Only pity... French "Mistral" LPD will delay for Russia Navy Pacific Ocean Fleet.


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## Raphael

Let's party it up .


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## Neptune

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Do you mean Russia?
> 
> Bro, you might think a bit too much, since it is just a normal drill.



Yes mate. But even if it was a MINEX, some drilling action was expected since NATO was harassing them at their border. At least a dozen exercises were commenced in the region for the last 2-3 months.


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## TruthSeeker

fallstuff said:


> You are just echoing the right wingers.



If you took the time to read "Dreams from My Father" and David Maraniss' biography about Obama's life pre-presidential run, "Barack Obama: The Story", as I have done, you would see that what I have said is not "right wing" demagogy, but a fair characterization of Barry Soetoro, after his mother and grandparents had raised him.

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## Galad

TaiShang said:


> When Obama did finally get round to naming China, it was to portray the two countries as best buddies, but only when it is acting in accordance with the US' wishes.


This is why there will not be any fruitful cooperation not only between USA and China but generally speaking between West and rest of the planet.Just look at one of latest interviews of Mr. Lavrov .Full capitulation - this what West wanted from Russia in exchange for removing sanctions!Utter insanity.For West cooperation means- we rule and issue orders and you-obey them.

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## xyxmt

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sometimes I can't help but ask this question: Is Barak Obama trying to destroy the United States intentionally through questionable policies ?
> 
> @SvenSvensonov , @LeveragedBuyout , @AMDR , @F-22Raptor , @Peter C , @C130 , @TruthSeeker , @Death.By.Chocolate , @MastanKhan , @qamar1990 et al. Can you please give your input?



Barak Obama alone doesnt make the policies


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## AgentOrange

How likely is it that China and Russia establish a collective security system? Not a full blown military alliance but similar to strengthened SCO where joint military ops become more than just show? What can China/Russia hope to achieve with such a system? Please discuss.

By the way I can't conceive of any scenario where China and Russia enter into a formal military alliance. Nevertheless, this is an extremely positive development. China's border with Russia is probably the area where China has to worry the least and for that I'm sure China is very appreciative. 

@Chinese-Dragon @TaiShang @senheiser @vostok @Nihonjin1051 @LeveragedBuyout

@everyone else.


*Russia, China seek to form Asia-Pacific collective security system — defense minister*



Russia
November 18, 15:28 UTC+3
Russia and China are concerned over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the Asia-Pacific Region

 Putin: strengthening ties with China top priority for Russia 

BEIJING, November 18. /TASS/. Defense ministries of Russia and China seek to form a regional collective security system in the Asia-Pacific region, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Tuesday after talks with his Chinese counterpart Colonel General Chang Wanquan in Beijing.
According to the Russian defense minister, Russia and China are concerned over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the Asia-Pacific Region (APR).

“During talks with Comrade Chang Wanquan, we discussed the state and prospects of the Russian-Chinese relations in the military field, exchanged opinions on the military-political situation in general and the APR in particular,” Shoigu said.

“We also expressed concern over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the APR,” he said. “We believe that the main goal of pooling our effort is to shape a collective regional security system.”

*Russia, China to hold joint naval drills in Pacific, Mediterranean in 2015*
Sergey Shoigu announced that Russia and China will hold joint naval drills in the Pacific and in the Mediterranean in 2015.

“We plan to conduct a regular joint naval exercise in the Mediterranean next spring. Another joint naval drill is planned in the Pacific,” he said.
Touching upon his talks with Chang Wanquan, Shoigu said the sides expressed satisfaction that the spectrum of joint activities in the defense sphere “has visibly expanded and gained a systemic character.” In May, Russia and China conducted third Joint Sea naval exercises, he noted.

In 2014, China’s teams took part in the tank biathlon world championship and international pilot competition Aviadrafts that were held in Russia. “Chinese servicemen demonstrated the high competitive spirit and skills,” the Russian defense minister said, adding that such events were “a good format for exchange of experience.”

“We have vast potential of cooperation in the defense sphere, and the Russian side is ready to develop it is a wide range of areas,” he added.

*Strengthening ties with China is Russia's top priority*
Shoigu said strengthening and expanding ties with China remains Russia’s overriding priority.

“Amid a highly volatile world situation, it becomes particularly important to strengthen reliable good-neighbourly relations between our countries,” Shoigu said at talks with his Chinese counterpart General Chang Wanquan.

“This is not only an important factor for security of states but also a contribution to peace and stability on the Eurasian continent and beyond,” he said, adding that “regular private meetings between the leaders of Russia and China give a powerful impetus to development of bilateral partnership”.

The minister noted that next year marks the 70th anniversary of the Allied victory in WWII. “The peoples of our countries took heavy casualties in it,” Shoigu said. “Russia’s and China’s solidarity is of principal importance amid attempts to falsify history and glorify fascism.”

A wide range of events is being planned to celebrate this date, both bilaterally and with counterparts from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), a security grouping comprising Russia, China and the Central Asian former Soviet republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, Shoigu said.

Russia and China also started to regularly hold joint naval and anti-terrorism drills, the minister said, adding that the countries’ military forces “showed a high level of cooperation” during an operation to escort vessels carrying Syria's chemical weapons. Much work was also done during this year’s joint Naval Interaction exercises in the East China Sea, he said.

Shoigu stressed that the two countries maintain high level of military and technical cooperation, noting that issues of that cooperation were “under constant review by our heads of state”.

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## LeveragedBuyout

AgentOrange said:


> How likely is it that China and Russia establish a collective security system? Not a full blown military alliance but similar to strengthened SCO where joint military ops become more than just show? What can China/Russia hope to achieve with such a system? Please discuss.
> 
> By the way, I can't conceive of any scenario where China and Russia enter into a formal military alliance.



I agree with you that a formal security alliance is inconceivable, for two reasons:

1) What does China have to gain from such an alliance? China can never overtly support Russian separatist movements in Russian satellite states without inviting the same applied to its own peripheral territories (e.g. Xinjiang, Tibet). It's beyond belief that China would spend blood and treasure to defend Russian territory. At the same time, how could Russia possibly help China in any material way?

2) Russia and China compete for influence with the other members of the SCO; Russia through its USSR links, China through its Silk Road links. There is more likely to be friction between the two over Central Asia than there would be joint interests elsewhere (China has very strong trade links with Europe that it would not risk harming on Russia's behalf; Russia has no reason to downgrade relations with the likes of India or Vietnam for the sake of ephemeral gains from China).

Moreover, they increasingly compete on the defense industry front, and they don't share the same historical outlook on the West. Once the CCP decides to switch the artificial narrative of how the US is trying to contain China to the reality that the US helped China in WWII against Japan, and favored China over the USSR from the 1970s onward, the unity of purpose between Russia and China crumbles.

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> How likely is it that China and Russia establish a collective security system? Not a full blown military alliance but similar to strengthened SCO where joint military ops become more than just show? What can China/Russia hope to achieve with such a system? Please discuss.
> 
> By the way I can't conceive of any scenario where China and Russia enter into a formal military alliance. Nevertheless, this is an extremely positive development. China's border with Russia is probably the area where China has to worry the least and for that I'm sure China is very appreciative.
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon @TaiShang @senheiser @vostok @Nihonjin1051 @LeveragedBuyout
> 
> @everyone else.
> 
> 
> *Russia, China seek to form Asia-Pacific collective security system — defense minister*
> 
> 
> 
> Russia
> November 18, 15:28 UTC+3
> Russia and China are concerned over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the Asia-Pacific Region
> 
> Putin: strengthening ties with China top priority for Russia
> 
> BEIJING, November 18. /TASS/. Defense ministries of Russia and China seek to form a regional collective security system in the Asia-Pacific region, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Tuesday after talks with his Chinese counterpart Colonel General Chang Wanquan in Beijing.
> According to the Russian defense minister, Russia and China are concerned over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the Asia-Pacific Region (APR).
> 
> “During talks with Comrade Chang Wanquan, we discussed the state and prospects of the Russian-Chinese relations in the military field, exchanged opinions on the military-political situation in general and the APR in particular,” Shoigu said.
> 
> “We also expressed concern over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the APR,” he said. “We believe that the main goal of pooling our effort is to shape a collective regional security system.”
> 
> *Russia, China to hold joint naval drills in Pacific, Mediterranean in 2015*
> Sergey Shoigu announced that Russia and China will hold joint naval drills in the Pacific and in the Mediterranean in 2015.
> 
> “We plan to conduct a regular joint naval exercise in the Mediterranean next spring. Another joint naval drill is planned in the Pacific,” he said.
> Touching upon his talks with Chang Wanquan, Shoigu said the sides expressed satisfaction that the spectrum of joint activities in the defense sphere “has visibly expanded and gained a systemic character.” In May, Russia and China conducted third Joint Sea naval exercises, he noted.
> 
> In 2014, China’s teams took part in the tank biathlon world championship and international pilot competition Aviadrafts that were held in Russia. “Chinese servicemen demonstrated the high competitive spirit and skills,” the Russian defense minister said, adding that such events were “a good format for exchange of experience.”
> 
> “We have vast potential of cooperation in the defense sphere, and the Russian side is ready to develop it is a wide range of areas,” he added.
> 
> *Strengthening ties with China is Russia's top priority*
> Shoigu said strengthening and expanding ties with China remains Russia’s overriding priority.
> 
> “Amid a highly volatile world situation, it becomes particularly important to strengthen reliable good-neighbourly relations between our countries,” Shoigu said at talks with his Chinese counterpart General Chang Wanquan.
> 
> “This is not only an important factor for security of states but also a contribution to peace and stability on the Eurasian continent and beyond,” he said, adding that “regular private meetings between the leaders of Russia and China give a powerful impetus to development of bilateral partnership”.
> 
> The minister noted that next year marks the 70th anniversary of the Allied victory in WWII. “The peoples of our countries took heavy casualties in it,” Shoigu said. “Russia’s and China’s solidarity is of principal importance amid attempts to falsify history and glorify fascism.”
> 
> A wide range of events is being planned to celebrate this date, both bilaterally and with counterparts from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), a security grouping comprising Russia, China and the Central Asian former Soviet republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, Shoigu said.
> 
> Russia and China also started to regularly hold joint naval and anti-terrorism drills, the minister said, adding that the countries’ military forces “showed a high level of cooperation” during an operation to escort vessels carrying Syria's chemical weapons. Much work was also done during this year’s joint Naval Interaction exercises in the East China Sea, he said.
> 
> Shoigu stressed that the two countries maintain high level of military and technical cooperation, noting that issues of that cooperation were “under constant review by our heads of state”.





Since the Cold War’s end, many analysts have expected China and Russia to cooperate vigorously to counter the American geopolitical superiority. Although Chinese and Russian leaders have collaborated on some issues, substantial obstacles have impeded their forming of an “Anti-American” Bloc. This failure of the two strongest countries with both the capacity and arguably incetives to counterbalance the American Power and influence isn world affairs suggests why the United States continues to enjoy unprecedented global preeminence.

Foreign policy cooperation between Russia and China has been much more visible in their joint approach to Central Asia in other important areas – despite their leader’s calls for foreign policy “coordination”. Their genuine desire to counter what both consider excessive American power and influence in the post-Cold War era manifests itself mostly rhetorically. Since the early 1990s, the two governments have issued numerous joint communiques in which they have denounced U.S policies and called for a multilateral rather than a unilateral (American-led) world. They also jointly sponsored resolutions in the United Nations urging respect for the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty, which limited the U.S. ability to deploy defense against Russian (and, by extension, Chinese) ballistic missiles.

Despite their common rhetoric, the two governments have taken no substantive , joint steps to counter American power of influence. For example, they have not pooled their military resources or expertise to overcome U.S. ballistic missile defense programs. One Chinese official threatened such anti-BMD cooperation shortly after Yeltsin’s December 1999 visit to Beijing. The Director General for Arms Control of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Sha Zukang, repeated the warning again. But such threats ended after Putin, on his visit to Italy, proposed that Russia and NATO cooperate to defend Europe against missile strikes – despite prior acknowledgment that Chinese officials were “suspicious about Russian initiatives to create a non-strategic missile defense system in Europe.” When asked about the prospects of a Joint Chinese-Russian response after the December 2001 U.S. decision to withdraw formally from the ABM Treaty, President Putin told journalists, “Russia is strong enough to respond on its own to any changes in the sphere of strategic stability.”

An important indicator of the shallowness of Sino-Russian ties has been their failure, despite the Russian-China “Partnership” to adopt a mutual defense agreement such as the treaty of friendship, alliance, and mutual assistance that Moscow and Beijing signed in February 1950. Representatives of both governments have consistently dismissed the suggestions of such Russian analysts and politicians as Roman Popkovich, chairman of the Duma Committee on Geopolitics, that a genuine military alliance be established. Although both Governments agreed in July 2000 to begin drafting a Sino-Russian Treaty of Good Neighborliness, Friendship and Cooperation, and signed it in July 2001, they made clear that neither party had sought a military component in the accord.

*I want to also emphasize the different approaches both Russia and China have regarding Asia:*

The limits of foreign policy harmonization between China and Russia are most visible in East and South Asia, where the two governments have adopted sharply divergent positions on important issues. For instance, despite their mutual concern about the 1998 Indian and Pakistani nuclear tests, Russia and China have persisted in supporting their respective Cold War allies – India in the case of Russia and Pakistan in the case of China. PLA analysts and other Chinese security specialists continue to see India as a potential threat to China’s security. For these reasons, the Chinese have expressed irritation at Russia’s commitment to provide India with nuclear reactors for its civilian nuclear power program. The Chinese have also resented Russia’s willingness to sell India advanced weapons that Moscow has not offered China, including certain fighter planes and other military technology.

In another area: NORTH KOREA. Russia and China share important concerns on the Korean Peninsula, they have pointedly declined to coordinate their policies there. Neither country desires a war or the use of weapons of mass destruction in Korea. Russia began in 1996 to provide South Korea with defensive weapons to cover the commercial debt with Seoul that it had inherited from the USSR. In contrast, former president Jiang Zemin stated that China had no plans to abrogate its defense treaty with North Korea. As a result, China has become North Korea’s closest political and military ally. Most tellingly, Chinese representatives resisted giving Russia a formal role in the Four-Party Negotiatins on establishing peace in Korea. As leaders of a state bordering the Peninsula, Russian officials were understandably concerned about the implications for their security of either Korea’s nuclearization or reunification.

In light of these policies, it leaves one to appreciate the comprehensive areas wherein would prevent a full and complete military alliance between Russia and China, given the differences in policies and agendas in the Asia-Pacific Region.


*References:*

Interfax. (2014, July 10). Russia, China have no plans to create military alliance, such coalitions proved ineffective - Sergei Ivanov. _Russia & FSU General News_. p. 1.

Russian FM: Russia and China Speak Against Expansion of Military Alliances Policy. (2012). _Arabia 2000_,

Weitz, R 2003, 'Why Russia And China Have Not Formed An Anti-American Alliance', _Naval War College Review_, 56, 4, P. 39, Academic Search Complete, Ebsco_host_, Viewed 19 November 2014.

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## Zsari

Military alliance is neither needed nor desired by both. As long as both do not turn against each other when facing an external threat, the two has nothing to fear in terms of its own security. In a standoff against the US by either one, it would be in the interest of the other party to assist materially and financially, but not militarily, while in an engagement against a third party other than the US, the two does not need each other to gain an advantage.

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## AgentOrange

LeveragedBuyout said:


> I agree with you that a formal security alliance is inconceivable, for two reasons:
> 
> 1) What does China have to gain from such an alliance? China can never overtly support Russian separatist movements in Russian satellite states without inviting the same applied to its own peripheral territories (e.g. Xinjiang, Tibet). It's beyond belief that China would spend blood and treasure to defend Russian territory. At the same time, how could Russia possibly help China in any material way?
> 
> 2) Russia and China compete for influence with the other members of the SCO; Russia through its USSR links, China through its Silk Road links. There is more likely to be friction between the two over Central Asia than there would be joint interests elsewhere (China has very strong trade links with Europe that it would not risk harming on Russia's behalf; Russia has no reason to downgrade relations with the likes of India or Vietnam for the sake of ephemeral gains from China).
> 
> Moreover, they increasingly compete on the defense industry front, and they don't share the same historical outlook on the West. Once the CCP decides to switch the artificial narrative of how the US is trying to contain China to the reality that the US helped China in WWII against Japan, and favored China over the USSR from the 1970s onward, the unity of purpose between Russia and China crumbles.



Outside of NATO, whose framework and mechanisms have been in place for decades, are there currently any other countries that have formal military alliances with one another? I can't think of any off the top of my head. It seems in the 21st century, no one makes military alliances anymore. At the same time, when was the last time any nation truly had to "fight for its existence" against a foreign opponent like in WW2? (aside from Saddam's Iraq ).

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## LeveragedBuyout

AgentOrange said:


> Outside of NATO, whose framework and mechanisms have been in place for decades, are there currently any other countries that have formal military alliances with one another? I can't think of any off the top of my head. It seems in the 21st century, no one makes military alliances anymore. At the same time, when was the last time any nation truly had to "fight for its existence" against a foreign opponent like in WW2? (aside from Saddam's Iraq ).



Sure, there are alliances, but they require close cultural connections, or a unique set of security alignment criteria to succeed. Examples:

ANZUS
US-Japan defense agreement
US-Korea defense agreement
US-Taiwan defense agreement
US-Philippines defense agreement
NORAD
Anglo-Portuguese alliance
Five Power Defense Arrangement
China-North Korea defense agreement

It's also possible that entities like the Visegrad Group could form the basis of a security alliance should the EU suffer its inevitable demise.

Therefore, it's easy to see how the member states of the former USSR could conceivably re-create some kind of defense alliance, but I doubt China would be involved. China may yet create a wider network of defense alliances beyond NK, but let's just say the current diplomatic environment is not conducive to such speculation.

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## Aepsilons

LeveragedBuyout said:


> It's also possible that entities like the Visegrad Group could form the basis of a security alliance should the EU suffer its inevitable demise.



This is a very poignant statement. I do believe that contingency plans should be readied for regional blocs in the event of a major strategic exigency, such as the EU's disintegration. Perhaps the Visegrad Group should conduct interoperability programs with the Nordic Battle Group. Cohesion between both the Nordic Battle Group and Visegrad Group could be a potent force to resist any unilateral acts of hegemony.

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## Hamartia Antidote

If the Russian/China border is no problem then is China going to spend less money on tanks since..well what land force are they planning to use all of them against?

How many army tanks are there in the Chinese army

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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> If the Russian/China border is no problem then is China going to spend less money on tanks since..well what land force are they planning to use all of them against?
> 
> How many army tanks are there in the Chinese army



Most of those are outdated Type-59s which are in dire need of replacement. And they aren't being replaced on a one to one basis. So over time we can expect China's tank fleet to shrink. Furthermore, out of all the branches, the PLA ground force is allocated the smallest portion of the budget. As I said, the Russian/China border is no problem. China's NK border is another story and modern tanks would be very useful.


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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> Most of those are outdated Type-59s which are in dire need of replacement. And they aren't being replaced on a one to one basis. So over time we can expect China's tank fleet to shrink. Furthermore, out of all the branches, the PLA ground force is allocated the smallest portion of the budget. As I said, the Russian/China border is no problem. China's NK border is another story and modern tanks would be very useful.



Tanks in Korean People's Army Ground Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well China can thank their "good friend Russia" and themselves for that.


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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> Tanks in Korean People's Army Ground Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Well China can thank their "good friend Russia" and themselves for that.



So Russia should stop arms sales to North Korea because of an unlikely "what if" scenario? Considering that China and North Korea are far from armed conflict, you aren't really disproving my point. At all. Try again.


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## Aepsilons

Peter C said:


> Tanks in Korean People's Army Ground Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Well China can thank their "good friend Russia" and themselves for that.



The North Koreans have that many tanks? 4000+ MBTs, 2200 APCs, 8000 artillery and 4800 multiple rocket launchers? Quite armed....


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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> So Russia should stop arms sales to North Korea because of an unlikely "what if" scenario? Considering that China and North Korea are far from armed conflict, you aren't really disproving my point. At all. Try again.



Do you happen to know how many tanks the PLA can muster in the Shenyang and Beijing Military Command to counter any North Korean Threat?


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## Thəorətic Muslim

LeveragedBuyout said:


> 1) What does China have to gain from such an alliance? China can never overtly support Russian separatist movements in Russian satellite states without inviting the same applied to its own peripheral territories (e.g. Xinjiang, Tibet). It's beyond belief that China would spend blood and treasure to defend Russian territory. At the same time, how could Russia possibly help China in any material way?



China has always maintained its distance from separatist movements and even referendums. When Russia annexed Crimea, the Chinese abstained from criticizing Russia in the UN, even that at great internal debate. Even the Crimean Referendum, was a threat to China. The referendum can be viewed a a middle finger to the establishment, something it can't tolerate.

China even viewed the Scottish Referendum as specious. The Chinese Premier wanted a "Stong, prosperous UK."

Consider "China's Israel", Pakistan, while Pakistan wants international scrutiny on Indian Occupied Kashmir, China always considered it an "Internal Dilemma" between the two nations.

Consider the USA's support of Taiwan, China always rebutted that it was an "Internal Dispute".



LeveragedBuyout said:


> 2) Russia and China compete for influence with the other members of the SCO; Russia through its USSR links, China through its Silk Road links. There is more likely to be friction between the two over Central Asia than there would be joint interests elsewhere (China has very strong trade links with Europe that it would not risk harming on Russia's behalf; Russia has no reason to downgrade relations with the likes of India or Vietnam for the sake of ephemeral gains from China).



Russia always consider the CARs as it's backyard, more so than it's bilateral relations with Serbia. But while Russia's bilateral relations with each CAR is buying the natural gas and oil at dirt cheap prices and reselling them to Europe three times the price, and upgrading the obsolete Soviet War Machines. China needs those resources to fuel it's economic bull. And is willing to offer cold hard $, and soft loans.



AgentOrange said:


> Most of those are outdated Type-59s which are in dire need of replacement. And they aren't being replaced on a one to one basis. So over time we can expect China's tank fleet to shrink.



China's fear of a Soviet Invasion died out with its fall. Interesting enough it was that fear that compelled the CCP to look towards the evil US Imperialists as a counterweight.

After the case studies of US-Iraq, Iraq-Iran, US-Afghanistan, US-Iraq 2.0, Russia-Georgia, and the Arab-Israeli wars, China reoriented it's war doctrine from "Peoples War", to Fast paced and low intensity "Blitzkrieg, and Spec Ops". And in the view of Cyber Specialists redefined the use of Cyber Warfare and its potential use as a deterrent.



AgentOrange said:


> So Russia should stop arms sales to North Korea because of an unlikely "what if" scenario? Considering that China and North Korea are far from armed conflict, you aren't really disproving my point. At all. Try again.



To be honest, Russia and China dont get much in return for supporting the North Korean regime, except North Korea has a life long potential to be a thorn in the US's ***.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The North Koreans have that many tanks? 4000+ MBTs, 2200 APCs, 8000 artillery and 4800 multiple rocket launchers? Quite armed....



The N. Koreans probably dont have enough fuel to get those tanks across the border. 



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Do you happen to know how many tanks the PLA can muster in the Shenyang and Beijing Military Command to counter any North Korean Threat?



With the advent of the RPG, TOW, and other well designed Anti-Tank weapons be it infantry used or combined with Air Power the fear of a tank or even it's number doesn't strike fear as it used to back in WW1. Tanks are good for frontal assault, they are essentially a pillbox on wheels with a big gun. But without infantry, and air cover they are sitting ducks.

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## Aepsilons

With China's blossoming relationship with Seoul, both recently signed a FTA, the former's alliance with Pyongyang remains a barrier that will prevent austere cooperation between Beijing and Seoul. The threat of Pyongyang will necessitate the presence of the American Alliance.


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## Genesis

LeveragedBuyout said:


> I agree with you that a formal security alliance is inconceivable, for two reasons:
> 
> 1) What does China have to gain from such an alliance? China can never overtly support Russian separatist movements in Russian satellite states without inviting the same applied to its own peripheral territories (e.g. Xinjiang, Tibet). It's beyond belief that China would spend blood and treasure to defend Russian territory. At the same time, how could Russia possibly help China in any material way?



This I see no problem, we can easily have our cake and eat it too. We can support Russian advancing on Ukraine and the Tibetans and what not can just deal with it, cause guess what, while they are not completely happy with the government, name me one guy that is, they also don't hate it enough to separate.

The minority always scream the loudest.

Ask yourself a logical question, how likely are Tibetans to find happiness in India, knowing what India actually is.




> 2) Russia and China compete for influence with the other members of the SCO; Russia through its USSR links, China through its Silk Road links. There is more likely to be friction between the two over Central Asia than there would be joint interests elsewhere (China has very strong trade links with Europe that it would not risk harming on Russia's behalf; Russia has no reason to downgrade relations with the likes of India or Vietnam for the sake of ephemeral gains from China).
> 
> Moreover, they increasingly compete on the defense industry front, and they don't share the same historical outlook on the West. Once the CCP decides to switch the artificial narrative of how the US is trying to contain China to the reality that the US helped China in WWII against Japan, and favored China over the USSR from the 1970s onward, the unity of purpose between Russia and China crumbles.



This is something I agree and is often overlooked for stupid reasons, like the fact US don't like to share and hate anything not created by it.

China and US can do good for the world, China is all about the growth and in terms of rights, we are far closer to Gay marriage than even democratic countries. Reason is while not democratic, we are not religious, anything that doesn't effect development is cool with us.

While Russia and China actually have competing interests, I mean actual core interests like central Asia, Pacific is only very important, and hardly damaging to the US if lost. We won't build an great wall around Asia, cause we like your money.


If US can work it out with itself, that China's rise is going to happen whether you like it or not and that we are actually not an empire of evil, our friendship could be for the greater good.

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## sicsheep

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Do you happen to know how many tanks the PLA can muster in the Shenyang and Beijing Military Command to counter any North Korean Threat?



The question is do we need tanks for Korean Peninsula? Any army try to use tanks in large formation is just asking to get wiped out, we have had artillery with smart anti-tank sub-munition for decades. they are designed to stop large armor columns even without air superiority. not to mention tactical nuke will be just as effective and much cheaper than maintaining 5000 tanks.


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## Aepsilons

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The N. Koreans probably dont have enough fuel to get those tanks across the border.
> 
> 
> 
> With the advent of the RPG, TOW, and other well designed Anti-Tank weapons be it infantry used or combined with Air Power the fear of a tank or even it's number doesn't strike fear as it used to back in WW1. Tanks are good for frontal assault, they are essentially a pillbox on wheels with a big gun. But without infantry, and air cover they are sitting ducks.



The Norkors are a bane to everyone. I honestly doubt the Russians have the capability to address that military threat. China, I believe she can, but it would take time to mobilize her 5000 tank fleet to address them. Or the some 8000 artillery pieces the Norkors have at their disposal. This would render any Chinese offensive into North Korea a bloody one. 

Let us not forget the Norkors possess nuclear capability....


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## Aepsilons

sicsheep said:


> The question is do we need tanks for Korean Peninsula? Any army try to use tanks in large formation is just asking to get wiped out, we have had artillery with smart anti-tank sub-munition for decades. they are designed to stop large armor columns even without air superiority. not to mention tactical nuke will be just as effective and much cheaper than maintaining 5000 tanks.




Mobilizing an armed offensive into North Korea would take up most of the PLA's resources. The Norkors also have an impressive asymmetrical sub force. This would be a substantial threat to the North Sea Fleet of the PLAN.


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## BDforever

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Mobilizing an armed offensive into North Korea would take up most of the PLA's resources. The Norkors also have an impressive asymmetrical sub force. This would be a substantial threat to the North Sea Fleet of the PLAN.


check what music you are listening thread

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## Aepsilons

BDforever said:


> check what music you are listening thread



We gonna dance together now?

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Norkors are a bane to everyone. I honestly doubt the Russians have the capability to address that military threat. China, I believe she can, but it would take time to mobilize her 5000 tank fleet to address them. Or the some 8000 artillery pieces the Norkors have at their disposal. This would render any Chinese offensive into North Korea a bloody one.
> Let us not forget the Norkors possess nuclear capability....



The North Koreans now they have zero allies. Or zero ally. Any Nuclear Attack on China will mean complete decimation of North Korea. COMPLETE. North Korea is only a buffer state between China and South Korea. China can deal with either having a population between it and South Korea or just a waste land.

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## TaiShang

There is already a deep security cooperation. I do not see any reason as to why to give it a name and call it a formal alliance. The alliance is there and functioning well thus taking the formal step will unnecessarily elicit attention. Otherwise, the record of cooperation over the years already suggests a well-oiled security partnership. Especially with the Xi-Putin leadership, China and Russia have collaborated almost all international issues form the Arab Spring to Ukraine and to their respective territorial disputes with others.

Making hard military alliances is outdated and, in fact, outside the context of China's foreign policy formulation. Therefore, I do not ascribe the lack of a formal NATO-like alliance to a less important or less reliable partnership on security matters. I guess, on the issue of Ukraine, China and Russia showed more strategic alignment than between the EU and the US.

Russia does not recognize separatism inside China and China does not recognize separatism inside Russia. For China Chechen rebels are terrorists and for Russia, Uighur separatists are terrorists. The SCO is basically to provide a Central Asia-wide cooperation between the two nations. Central Asia, in my view, is one of the areas that China and Russia cooperate most.

Probably thanks to the SCO and common political posture that religious terrorism has greatly been prevented from penetrating the region.

International conjecture might push the two into a more formal alliance in the future, but currently, the noise coming from the west does not really require that China and Russia should embark on a hard security partnership. But the framework is already there if one day such a need arises.

US Lawmaker Names Russia Among America’s Serious Threats / Sputnik international

@senheiser , @vostok

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## sicsheep

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Norkors are a bane to everyone. I honestly doubt the Russians have the capability to address that military threat. China, I believe she can, but it would take time to mobilize her 5000 tank fleet to address them. Or the some 8000 artillery pieces the Norkors have at their disposal. This would render any Chinese offensive into North Korea a bloody one.
> 
> Let us not forget the Norkors possess nuclear capability....



hmm OK, If you are sitting in Beijing, you will look at it this way, a little off topic but here you go. 
1, even South knows the 8000 artillery is hugely exaggerated, they are so dated no chance they get off with a second shot in time of war, (maybe not even one shot before they get destroyed) 
2, all nuclear weapons and facilities are right by the Yalu where the Kim thinks is the safest, not too hard to find for us haha 
3, again, before all these would happen, we can just stop the food train and let malnutrition do its work, because we literally feed their army


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## Zsari

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The North Koreans now they have zero allies. Or zero ally. Any Nuclear Attack on China will mean complete decimation of North Korea. COMPLETE. North Korea is only a buffer state between China and South Korea. China can deal with either having a population between it and South Korea or just a waste land.



China does not need a buffer state against S.Korea. N.Korea is only relevant when American force is present on the peninsular, and that will remain so until S.Korea is able to find a better arrangement. Hopefully, an ever improving China S.Korea relation will give it the confidence to take the necessary step.

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## terranMarine

I think they just don't understand the relationship China has with Korea since ancient times. The Koreans were never a threat to China because Korea has always been a good tribute state to us. Right now the North is ruled by some fat pig who executed his pro China uncle, yes as crazy as he seems to be the North Koreans aren't that crazy to treat China as an enemy or gonna launch an attack against us. Therefor China has nothing to fear from North Korea. Japan on the other hand is a different matter

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## TaiShang

​Russia-China trading settlements in yuan increases 800% — RT Business

Settlements in yuan between China and Russia have increased ninefold in annual terms between January and September 2014, says the Chinese Ministry of Economic Development.

_*"The settlement in national currencies between China and Russia in bilateral trade amounted to about 2 percent in 2013. There has been a significant growth in 2014. In particular, the use of the yuan in mutual settlements increased nine times in the first nine months of 2014."*_ TASS quotes Lin Zhi, head of the Europe and Central Asia Department of the Chinese Ministry of Economic Development.

READ MORE: Ruble-yuan settlements will cut energy sales in US dollars – Putin

_"About 100 Russian commercial banks are now opening corresponding accounts for settlements in yuan. The list of commercial banks where ordinary depositors can open an account in yuan is also growing."_ the official said.

On November 18 Russia’s Sberbank became the first Russian bank to begin financing letters of credit in Chinese yuan.

READ MORE: Russia’s biggest bank launches financing in Chinese yuan

Half of the trade between Russia and China could be carried out in yuan and rubles provided China removes restrictions on currency transactions for Russian banks, said Deputy Finance Minister Aleksey Moiseyev in September. The restrictions don’t allow Russian banks to keep yuan received from exporters for a long time.

*Russia and China have been boosting cooperation primarily in the financial and energy sectors and are planning to have a trade turnover of $200 billion by 2020.*

Switching to settlements in domestic currencies can largely contribute to balancing the global economy by reducing the impact of the dollar on the world financial and energy markets, President Vladimir Putin said at the APEC Summit last week.

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## sicsheep

BEIJING, November 18. /TASS/. Military and military-technical cooperation between Russia and China assumes paramount significance amid the international situation, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Wednesday.

“Unfortunately, the situation in the region (Asia-Pacific), North Africa and in the whole world is becoming more and more complicated every year. Military and military-technical cooperation between Russia and China assumes special importance,” he said at a meeting with Vice-Chairman of the Chinese Central Military Commission Xu Qiliang.

He praised the state of and prospects for the development of military-technical cooperation between the two countries. “Today we’ll have an opportunity to talk about all issues of military-technical cooperation. Much of what we discussed during your visit to Moscow last year is being realized,” Shoigu told his Chinese colleague.

“The level of our relations proves that we have no unsolved problems. Our work will be aimed at implementing projects within military-technical cooperation,” he said. Shoigu thanked Xu Qiliang for the warm reception and good preparations of the Russian-Chinese intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation due to be held in Beijing on November 19.

Xu Qiliang said, “Strategic partnership between China and Russia entered a new stage of the development. We’re pleased with it.” The development of partnership “mirrors our peoples’ willingness and plays an important role in preserving regional and global peace,” he said.

Shoigu is currently on an official visit to China from November 17 to November 19.

*Russia-China military-technical cooperation of paramount importance — defense minister*

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## sicsheep

BEIJING, November 18. /TASS/. Defense ministries of Russia and China seek to form a regional collective security system in the Asia-Pacific region, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Tuesday after talks with his Chinese counterpart Colonel General Chang Wanquan in Beijing.


According to the Russian defense minister, Russia and China are concerned over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the Asia-Pacific Region (APR).

“During talks with Comrade Chang Wanquan, we discussed the state and prospects of the Russian-Chinese relations in the military field, exchanged opinions on the military-political situation in general and the APR in particular,” Shoigu said.

“We also expressed concern over US attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the APR,” he said. “We believe that the main goal of pooling our effort is to shape a collective regional security system.”

*Russia, China to hold joint naval drills in Pacific, Mediterranean in 2015*
Sergey Shoigu announced that Russia and China will hold joint naval drills in the Pacific and in the Mediterranean in 2015.

“We plan to conduct a regular joint naval exercise in the Mediterranean next spring. Another joint naval drill is planned in the Pacific,” he said.


Touching upon his talks with Chang Wanquan, Shoigu said the sides expressed satisfaction that the spectrum of joint activities in the defense sphere “has visibly expanded and gained a systemic character.” In May, Russia and China conducted third Joint Sea naval exercises, he noted.

In 2014, China’s teams took part in the tank biathlon world championship and international pilot competition Aviadrafts that were held in Russia. “Chinese servicemen demonstrated the high competitive spirit and skills,” the Russian defense minister said, adding that such events were “a good format for exchange of experience.”

“We have vast potential of cooperation in the defense sphere, and the Russian side is ready to develop it is a wide range of areas,” he added.

*Strengthening ties with China is Russia's top priority*
Shoigu said strengthening and expanding ties with China remains Russia’s overriding priority.

“Amid a highly volatile world situation, it becomes particularly important to strengthen reliable good-neighbourly relations between our countries,” Shoigu said at talks with his Chinese counterpart General Chang Wanquan.

“This is not only an important factor for security of states but also a contribution to peace and stability on the Eurasian continent and beyond,” he said, adding that “regular private meetings between the leaders of Russia and China give a powerful impetus to development of bilateral partnership”.

The minister noted that next year marks the 70th anniversary of the Allied victory in WWII. “The peoples of our countries took heavy casualties in it,” Shoigu said. “Russia’s and China’s solidarity is of principal importance amid attempts to falsify history and glorify fascism.”

A wide range of events is being planned to celebrate this date, both bilaterally and with counterparts from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), a security grouping comprising Russia, China and the Central Asian former Soviet republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, Shoigu said.

Russia and China also started to regularly hold joint naval and anti-terrorism drills, the minister said, adding that the countries’ military forces “showed a high level of cooperation” during an operation to escort vessels carrying Syria's chemical weapons. Much work was also done during this year’s joint Naval Interaction exercises in the East China Sea, he said.

Shoigu stressed that the two countries maintain high level of military and technical cooperation, noting that issues of that cooperation were “under constant review by our heads of state”.

*Russia, China seek to form Asia-Pacific collective security system*

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## TaiShang

Does America realize the consequences of forcing Russia into China’s arms? — RT Op-Edge

In Ukraine, the US is cutting off its nose to spite its face, as it transforms a regional struggle over “spheres of influence” into a global one. Unless the runaway train is swiftly derailed, the world faces a 21st century standoff between east and west.

In 867AD, Æbbe the Younger, Mother Superior of the convent at Coldingham in Scotland cut off her nose and upper lip and urged her fellow nuns to also disfigure themselves. It wasn’t for sacrificial reasons; it was because Viking raiders had landed nearby and the Abbess feared they would rape the community and deprive them of their chastity. By destroying their appearance, Mother Æbbe, correctly, guessed the Nordic marauders would show no interest. She was right - the Vikings were so disgusted that they burned the entire convent to the ground.

From this event was born the phrase “_cutting off the nose to spite the face_.” Although the original circumstances were slightly different, the term is a warning against pursuing revenge in a way that would damage the instigator more than the object of the anger. The USA is doing precisely this in its current attitude to Russia. By “punishing” Russia for resisting Western attempts to “grab” Ukraine, it is laying the foundations for a far more serious estrangement.

A feud that began when President Putin stymied the hopes of elements in Washington to wage war with Syria now has the potential to reshape the entire world. You all know the story by now, neocon factions in the State Department took revenge against Putin's perceived stubbornness by ratcheting up tensions in Ukraine, leading to a violent revolution and civil war. The Crimean people voted to rejoin Russia and Washington, in tandem with the EU, imposed sanctions on Moscow.

Except they weren’t the kind of sanctions designed to damage Russia’s ability to defend itself. Instead, they were clearly aimed at regime change by targeting close supporters of the Russian President. Subsequently, the short-sighted sanctions led to unprecedented approval ratings for Putin as the Russian people rallied around their leader. In their eyes, an attack on their President was an attack on the nation. What the State Department meddlers didn't countenance is that Russians, with high levels of education, are too savvy to be hoodwinked by playground tactics.

Since then, bilateral relations between the White House and the Kremlin have reached their lowest point since the Russian Federation was founded in 1991. This has happened only 4 years after Putin advocated a free trade agreement between the EU and Russia. “_A harmonious economic community stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok,_” as he wrote in Germany’s Süddeutsche Zeitung at the time.

In 48 months we have gone from a prospective giant Western alliance, with Russia at its centre, to a situation where Russia is now ready to possibly join an Eastern alliance led, to all intents and purposes, by China. We know neocons aren’t the brightest lights in the firmament but are they really this stupid?







Russian President Vladimir Putin, left, and Chinese President Xi Jinping (RIA Novosti)

If you didn’t know the personalities involved and were asked to suggest the obvious alignment of the world, you’d probably say that Russia’s place was in the European camp. It shares a Christian faith with the rest of the continent and has always been at least a “_slightly_” European power - much like the United Kingdom.

In truth, Russia has little in common with Asian cultures, aside from geography. Even in the far eastern outpost of Vladivostok (which is on the far side of China), an Italian is far more likely to blend in than a Malaysian. This is not related to appearance - there are many ethnic east-Asians in the region, who regard themselves as thoroughly Russian and, by virtue, European. Indeed there are millions of people east of the Urals who have actually never set foot in what is generally considered to be Europe, but describe themselves as being Europeans. It’s a state of mind but, then again, Europe has always been as much an idea as a place.

For years commentators have speculated: “_imagine Russia’s resources and military power with Western Europe’s technology and fiscal heft?_” It would, of course, be the single most powerful economic and martial bloc in the world. Not only that, but such a rapprochement makes complete sense and has done since 1991.

However, it is Washington’s worst nightmare. An EU-Russia alliance and partial union would erode America’s influence in Europe. Hence, to knock it on head, just as it seemed Germany was warming to the notion, the US has managed to drive a massive wedge between Moscow and its natural allies in Europe.

Before they clap themselves on the back too loudly, the Americans might want to pause for a second. In pursuing this haphazard course, they’ve managed to send Russia hurtling into China’s warm embrace.

Thus, cutting off their nose to spite their face. Instead of allowing a tri-polar world, the US in control of the Americas, China in Asia, and a giant Eurasian alliance as a buffer - Washington has managed to create a much more confrontational bi-polar world. In the blue corner, the USA and a castrated, divided Europe which is being pulled in all kinds of directions and in the red corner, a resurgent China and a Russia that, most likely, would prefer to be in a different corner altogether, or none,

This is the way the US State Department wishes the world to be - in a constant state of chaos. Now, instead of a US-EU-Russia detente, they have managed to manufacture a new Cold War for the 21st century with Ukraine as the new Berlin.






A Chinese Type 86A IFV seen during the final rehearsal of the joint Russia-China anti-terror exercise Peace Mission (RIA Novosti)

With Russia alienated by the West and China eager to buy high-end weaponry, a joint military pact seems the likely outcome. Concurrently, the previously zombie-like NATO has awoken like a pensioner who was discovered house music and fancies a last youthful dance.

If a Moscow-Beijing military alliance does take shape, such a bloc would dominate the Eurasian landmass, with naval bases all the way from the Baltic, via the Arctic and Pacific, to the South China Sea. A union between Russia's advanced weaponry and China's huge population and industrial muscle would eventually prove a match for NATO, thereby giving the US an excuse to ratchet up military spending. If Europe attempted to follow suit, it would likely deepen its economic malaise. The main point is that the whole notion is such an incredibly wasteful use of finite global resources.

The confrontation between Russia and the West is a gift that keeps on giving for China. Just as the self-destruction of the Euro-centric world a century ago allowed the building a new US-centric system, the weakening of the US will probably result in China becoming the world’s leading power. Europe’s last chance to stake its own claim, has evaporated into thin air thanks to a bone-headed, subservient (to Washington) strategy in eastern part of the continent. Europe’s inability to separate the European Union from the archaic NATO has been its undoing.

Four years after Putin proposed a Russian-EU alliance from “_Lisbon to Vladivostok_,” we instead have an embryonic new Cold War. It’s not too late to halt the wagons but time is limited. The next US administration, if it’s sufficiently blessed to be shorn of neocons, must decide which is more important to it: to antagonize Russia in the eastern borderlands, losing its world hegemony in the process, or to find a way of resolving friction with Moscow, thus halting the process of China’s accession to the role of global superpower.

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## AgentOrange

BuddhaPalm said:


> We should export our communist political system to Russia. I think Russia is a suitable country to adopt our communist system.



Yeah, in 2014 China's all about exporting revolution. Especially authoritarian state capitalism under the guise of communism first exported to China from Russia. I guess this would be the ultimate Chinese "knockoff" being sold back to the originator at firesale prices? 

Idiotic statements from Chinese people do more damage to China's image than any slander piece published in the West.

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## TaiShang

AgentOrange said:


> Yeah, in 2014 China's all about exporting revolution. Especially authoritarian state capitalism under the guise of communism first exported to China from Russia. I guess this would be the ultimate Chinese "knockoff" being sold back to the originator at firesale prices?
> 
> Idiotic statements from Chinese people do more damage to China's image than any slander piece published in the West.



I guess he was only being sarcastic.


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## AgentOrange

TaiShang said:


> I guess he was only being sarcastic.



I really, really hope so. And if BuddhaBro was being sarcastic, then I apologize. If he wasn't and he actually meant what he said, then on behalf of other Chinese people everywhere ...

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## Chinese-Dragon

We don't export ideology.

Some people are upset at growing China-Russia relations I guess.



AgentOrange said:


> *Idiotic statements from Chinese people do more damage to China's image than any slander piece published in the West.*





BuddhaPalm said:


> We should export our communist political system to Russia. I think Russia is a suitable country to adopt our communist system.



@BuddhaPalm may be a false flag.

Every post he makes is an attempt to ruin China's image.

@Horus

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## TaiShang

AgentOrange said:


> I really, really hope so. And if BuddhaBro was being sarcastic, then I apologize. If he wasn't and he actually meant what he said, then on behalf of other Chinese people everywhere ...



I agree and hope he was just being sarcastic. China is 100% *uninterested* in preaching others what is best for them.

Let exporting ideology remain a Western business. China better continue to export high-end tangibles, and receive development, power, and prestige, in return.

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## TaiShang

*China to push strategic partnership with Russia: Foreign Ministry 
December 5, 2014*





File photo of Putin (right) presenting the Russian delegation to President of China Xi Jinping in March 2013 [PPIO]

A day after Russian President Vladimir Putin’s state of the nation address, China said it will pursue closer ties with Moscow.

“China is determined to keep building up the strategic partnership with Russia,” said a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson on Friday in Beijing.

*“We respect the road taken by the Russian nation, including its domestic and foreign policies. We watched the Russian president’s statement with great interest. The level of trust and cooperation between our countries is very high,” Hua Chunying was quoted by Russian agency Tass.*

In a televised address to the nation, Putin said on Thursday, some governments are attempting “to create a new iron curtain around Russia”.

The Russian President hit out at the US alleging Washington “always influences Russia’s relations with neighbors, directly or indirectly”, even as the Ukraine crisis is straining ties between many EU capitals and Moscow.

Earlier last month, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov alleged Washington is seeking to achieve a regime change in Russia and is instigating Moscow’s closest allies to join in the punitive sanctions.

*“We have a million confirmations that all over the world American ambassadors, envoys are insisting on top-level meeting to say – you should be punishing Russia jointly with us. This is done in all countries, no exceptions, including our closest allies,” Lavrov said.*

In measures to offset the impact of sanctions to the Russian economy, Putin on Thursday promised an amnesty for capital repatriated to the country and a national wealth fund to support domestic banks.

The Russian economy is bearing the brunt of Western sanctions over the Ukraine crisis, said Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov earlier last week in Moscow.

“We are losing around $40 billion in a year because of sanctions and another $90 to $100 billion because of a 30-percent drop in oil prices,” Siluanov said.

At the Kremlin’s St George Hall, addressing an audience of more than 1,000 people, Putin on Thursday said the US is trying to undermine the Russian economy and that Western sanctions would have been imposed regardless of Crimea and Ukraine.

Moscow is consciously making a concerted attempt in reducing dollar dependence for Russian trade, including making greater use of settlements in ruble and yuan in its trade with China.

“We’re moving away from the diktat of the market that denominates all commercial oil flows in US dollars. We’re encouraging in every way the use of national currencies – both the ruble and the yuan,” Putin said last month.

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## TaiShang

Post Chechnya attack, China, Russia eye anti-terror cooperation | The BRICS Post

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Friday sent a letter of condolence to his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov over Thursday’s terrorist attack in Russia’s southwestern Chechnya republic, which killed 25 people.

Wang strongly condemned the attack, stating that China opposes terrorism of all forms.

*“China firmly supports Russia’s efforts to fight terrorism, and is willing to strengthen anti-terrorism cooperation with Russia, so as to safeguard each other’s national peace, tranquility and stability, and ensure the safety of life and property of the two peoples,” said the Chinese minister.*

China’s government is also fighting a surge of violence over the past year on militants from Xinjiang who China says are fighting for an independent state called East Turkestan.

More than 200 people have died in unrest in China’s Xinjiang in the past year or so, the government says.

Meanwhile, Russia’s National Anti-terrorism Committee (NAK) said on Thursday 10 policemen lost their lives and 28 were injured in clashes with the attackers.

Russia has battled separatist wars in Chechnya in 1994-96 and 1999-2000.

In an annual state of the nation address on Thursday, Putin said the West’s age-old “policy of containment” against Russia also includes supporting terrorism on its soil.

*“Talking to Russia from a position of force is an exercise in futility, even when it was faced with domestic hardships, as in the 1990ies and early 2000ies. We remember well how and who, almost openly, supported separatism back then and even outright terrorism in Russia, referred to murderers, whose hands were stained with blood, none other than rebels and organised high-level receptions for them. These “rebels” showed up in Chechnya again,” said Putin.*

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## DeVice

Everyone know who is funding and planning the terrorism.

U, S and A.

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## TaiShang

DeVice said:


> Everyone know who is funding and planning the terrorism.
> 
> U, S and A.



China needs continue to stand by Russia at the time of greater need.


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## Beast

TaiShang said:


> China needs continue to stand by Russia at the time of greater need.


 Beware of sabotage. Many countries are desperate to sow discord and separate the alliance.


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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> Beware of sabotage. Many countries are desperate to sow discord and separate the alliance.



Hopefully, the political intelligence of the two countries are above those perpetrators. 

The West is really pushing Russia to the corner. The Chechnian terrorism started out of blue. Anticipate US-Saudi support to weaken and destabilize Russia. If it comes to that, the SCO would have to conduct a huge anti-terrorism drill in the region.


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## TaiShang

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's upcoming three-nation tour in Asia and Europe will not only help further China's relations with the host countries, but also be of great significance to regional and sub-regional cooperation, experts say.




 
During the seven-day trip which starts on Sunday, Li will pay an official visit to Kazakhstan and attend the 13th prime ministers' meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO).

He will also attend the third leaders' meeting of China and Central and Eastern European (CEE) countries and pay an official visit to Serbia.

In Thailand, the final leg of his tour, Li will attend the fifth summit of the Greater Mekong Subregion (GMS) Economic Cooperation.

*Fresh momentum for SCO cooperation *

Li's visit to Kazakhstan will be his first since he took office in 2013, as well as the first visit by a Chinese premier to the country since 2008.

Sheng Shiliang, executive director of the Center of SCO Studies, said China-Kazakhstan relations have maintained a good momentum of development, with remarkable achievements in cooperation in such fields as security, inter-connectivity, trade and economy.

During his stay in the Central Asian nation, Li will also attend the second regular meeting between the China-Kazakhstan heads of government.

In Kazakhstan, Li is expected to address an event held by the entrepreneurs' committee of the two countries, and witness the signing of about 30 cooperation documents valued at over 10 billion U.S. dollars.

Li's visit embodies great importance attached by China to its amity with Kazakhstan, Sheng said, adding that the signing of big business deals will inject fresh vitality into Kazakhstan's economic development.

Besides, the Chinese premier's attendance at the SCO prime ministers' meeting will broaden cooperation within the regional organization in such areas as security, economy, and people-to-people and cultural exchanges.

In the context of the prolonged Ukraine crisis, the threat of "three civil forces" of separatism, extremism and terrorism, and the slowdown of some member states' economic growth, high expectations have been placed on the SCO and great importance attached to China's role in dealing with those issues.

At the meeting, Li is expected to expound on China's proposal in safeguarding stability, developing economy, and improving the people's livelihood, and put forward a series of initiatives in bolstering the organization's development, so as to implement the consensus reached at the September SCO summit and inject new momentum into the development of regional cooperation.

*New driving force for China-Europe ties*

When attending the China-CEE meeting in Serbia, Li will discuss major plans for cooperation with leaders of 16 Central and Eastern European nations.

Kong Tianping, a research fellow on Europe studies with the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), said the 16+1 meeting mechanism, as a new platform for China-CEE cooperation launched in 2012, will enormously increase the two sides' political will for bilateral cooperation.

Last year, Li attended the second leaders' meeting of China and CEE countries in the Romanian capital of Bucharest and the two sides sketched out 38 cooperation projects, 80 percent of which have been put into practice.

China and the CEE countries have already made great progress in some big cooperation projects, as Chinese enterprises' cooperation with Serbia, Romania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and other countries in the region have yielded fruitful results in the area of infrastructure construction.

The two sides have also set up a platform for cooperation in the fields of education and culture.

"It is noteworthy that among the 16 CEE countries, 11 have joined the European Union (EU) and the other five have also set a target for the membership in the bloc," Kong said.

"China-CEE cooperation is an important element of China-EU relations, whose in-depth development will not only become a 'new driving force' for the two sides' cooperation, but also be conducive to the balanced development of bilateral ties," he added.

Serbia, the host country of the meeting, has enjoyed a profound traditional friendship with China and plays a decisive role in China-CEE relations.

In 2009, it became the first CEE country to establish a strategic partnership with China.

Li's visit to Serbia is of positive significance to consolidating and developing bilateral relations, Kong noted.

*New devekopment for sub-regional cooperation *

The GMS, initiated by the Asian Development Bank in 1992, is composed of six member nations in the Mekong River Basin -- China, Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam.

Jin Canrong, associate dean of Renmin University's School of International Relations, said the GMS cooperation has made considerable headway after China's participation, adding that China's development has made the cooperation project come true.

Li's attendance at the GMS meeting will politically boost the development of this mechanism and promote mutual political trust with some Southeastern Asian nations, so as to dispel misgivings and strengthen their political will to interact with each other, he said.

The GMS serves not only as an important element for China's foreign policy toward its neighbors, but also a complement to the country's cooperation with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

As countries in the subregion are also landlocked members of ASEAN, most of whom are less developed nations within the bloc, China's cooperation with them will help ASEAN realize balanced development.

Xu Liping, a research fellow of the Asia-Pacific and Global Strategy with CASS, said China has made great contribution to the sub-regional cooperation in financial assistance, poverty reduction, agricultural technology and non-traditional security.

He added that Li's attendance at the meeting will undoubtedly play a positive role in pushing forward cooperation in the subregion.

The Chinese premier's proposals at a series of leaders' meeting on East Asia cooperation last month, including inter-connectivity and an upgraded free trade area, also relate to cooperation in the GMS, he said.

Therefore, Li is likely to detail those proposals at the upcoming GMS summit and put forward some new proposals, which will "not only focus on economic development, but also reinforce security cooperation, in a bid to realize a 'dual-wheel driving force' for both political security and economic development," Xu noted.

Li's Eurasia tour to unleash potential for cooperation - China.org.cn

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## TaiShang

*China needs clear strategy to help Russia*
Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-17

With oil prices sinking and the ruble falling in value, Russia is experiencing the gravest economic crisis since the turn of the century. After its value crashed for two days running, the ruble has depreciated over 50 percent against the US dollar so far this year to become the worst performing global currency. At present, there seems to be no way to bail it out, and what will happen to the Russian economy is difficult to predict.

*Some analysts are comparing Russia's current situation with the eve of the Soviet Union's dissolution, when oil prices were also at a low ebb. Some speculate that the deepening economic crisis will impose new challenges to Russian President Vladimir Putin's tenure, forcing him to apply a defensive strategy. But there are also some concerns about him becoming more aggressive.*

This speculation raises a question: Is Russia's economy worse now than the time when the Soviet Union collapsed?

*Compared with 23 years ago, Russia's manufacturing capacity and agricultural production have not greatly improved, and it's much diminished strength has not left much room to maneuver. What's more, Moscow now faces Western sanctions and there is deep antagonism between Moscow and Washington.*

*But Russian society is much more united than before. *Putin retains high approval ratings among the Russian public, who learned heavy lessons after the collapse and harbor no delusions toward the West.

*Russia's foreign exchange reserves still boast about $400 billion, which means, unlike immediately following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the well-being of the Russian people will not be severely impacted in the short term*. Although the threat of collapse is still far away, Russia will go through a long-running winter instead of a temporary storm.

*China has become a significant factor that determines Russia's strategic environment. Seeking China's support is one of Russia's most realistic options.*

While it might play a key role, China has to keep a clear mind when giving a helping hand to Russia. *China-Russia cooperation is no longer ideology-based but driven by common interests. Although it has the capability to offer help to Russia at critical moments, China does not have to act in a proactive manner. *

Any facilitation and aid must be given with the request of Moscow through the normal channels of country-to-country exchanges. This will reduce Moscow's misunderstandings to the minimum.

This crisis will probably urge Russia to recalibrate some of its national strategies. But it is by no means a fact that Russia will draw closer to China because of this. With many uncertainties, China also faces challenges about how to lead its relationship with Russia to a reciprocal end.

*Russia is at a crossroads, and the direction it chooses will impact world politics. China's stance is clear, and it does not want Russia to collapse.

***
*
What realistic options does China have to assist Russia in one of its deepest economic crises that is the result of a geopolitical stand-off with the West (US)?

@Chinese-Dragon , @Nihonjin1051 , @Keel , @tranquilium , @Edison Chen , @Raphael , @xunzi , @cirr , @ChineseTiger1986 , @terranMarine @yusheng , @Ruisheng , @wanglaokan , @JSCh _at al_.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> What realistic options does China have to assist Russia in one of its deepest economic crises that is the result of a geopolitical stand-off with the West (US)?



More business deals.

We need to reduce pollution, so we are closing down coal mines and going for natural gas instead.

Russia has the largest reserves of natural gas in the world. They could really help our pollution problem, and in return they could get a lot of cash flow from us that will help them maintain their economic development.

Moving to a gas-fueled power model also helps us in the long run, considering we have the largest Shale gas reserves in the world. In a few decades that will allow us to switch almost entirely to domestic energy.

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## Beast

The Russian needs to realize the Chinese has the upper hand. Under this circumstances, it will not be an equal partner treaty if Russian try negotiate with Chinese. We will not give our hard earn cash to salvage your crisis for free.

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## 帅的一匹

I think its' not in China interets to see Russian going down the drain, what we can do to help? The Rupee is deppreciate like a snow ball rolling down the moutain, it is in risk.



Beast said:


> The Russian needs to realize the Chinese has the upper hand. Under this circumstances, it will not be an equal partner treaty if Russian try negotiate with Chinese.


They shall TOT the TVC tech ASAP, we will consider helping them.


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## Chinese-Dragon

wanglaokan said:


> I think its' not in China interets to see Russian going down the drain, what we can do to help? The Rupee is deppreciate like a snow ball rolling down the moutain, it is in risk.



Why are you talking about the Rupee regarding Russia?

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## Beast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Why are you talking about the Rupee regarding Russia?


I think he means ruble.



wanglaokan said:


> I think its' not in China interets to see Russian going down the drain, what we can do to help? The Rupee is deppreciate like a snow ball rolling down the moutain, it is in risk.
> 
> 
> They shall TOT the TVC tech ASAP, we will consider helping them.


Not only that, I expect Russian to fully embrace Chinese commodities. Replace many europe supplies with all Chinese. If best, Russian can buy some Chinese arms will be better.

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## Kyle Sun

Let's see who will give up first.


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## cirr

Open up the Russian far east，attract Chinese capital（both monetary and human），give long leases over large tracts of land and let the Chinese workers and farmers produce more than the Russians can ever consume。

In short，make the entire western Russian a military barrack with Moscow as its political capital，and eastern Russia a new super super large development zone turning Vladivostok into its economic capital(Hongkong and Shenzhen spring to mind)。

Russia needs to concentrate its 100 million plus population in the two ends of the country，leaving the central area sparsely populated but with 1st class connectivity。

An entirely new、prosperous and strong Russia in 20 years。

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## Ruisheng

We look for friendship and partnership, not allies. I believe they could make it, although some help will be welcomed. But in case they cannot overcome the sanctions, we won't allow it to ruins. This probably will not happen. It's just economic thing.



Beast said:


> I think he means ruble.
> 
> 
> Not only that, I expect Russian to fully embrace Chinese commodities. Replace many europe supplies with all Chinese. If best, Russian can buy some Chinese arms will be better.


Obviously western world don't want to see a back-to-back RC ally. They probably will stop the sanctions at some point. Russia must be heavily struck but it can tolerate.Otherwise western can only import oil/gas from OPEC, which makes it possible to increase the price as they wish.

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## Edison Chen

1, The depreciation of Russian Rub will exert a bad influence on RMB. Actually, not only Russia, Brazil, India and Indonesia also have depreciation pressures, people have concern over the emerging market where the capital is evacuating quickly. While China's economy is coming to a difficult time, so this time around China should help Russia.

2, The drop of oil prices is bad for Russia but good for China, it will ease the inflation and it is also a chance to reform the old system of oil and gas price in China into market based pricing system.

China can help Russia but not for free. Time is different. Now Russia need China more than we need them. What can Russia give China in return except natural resources and military technology?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Russia cannot depend on the oil economy forever, so only the Eurasian HSR will bail Russia out of this crisis.

BTW, China will provide the technology and assistance, while the 7000km Siberian HSR will build by Russia itself, so it is a good way to revive their manufacturing value chain.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia cannot depend on the oil economy forever, so only the Eurasian HSR will bail Russia out of this crisis.
> 
> BTW, China will provide the technology and assistance, while the 7000km Siberian HSR will build by Russia itself, so it is a good way to revive their manufacturing value chain.


Firstly turn back the occupied 1 million SQM land of the far east to China, then we talk.

The only reason we shall help them is because of bully of USA, i don't like Russians at all.

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> Firstly turn back the occupied 1 million SQM land of the far east to China, then we talk.



Forget about those lands, maybe we can ask Russia for the exchange of the Outer Mongolia, while we can support them to take back Ukraine.

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## Ruisheng

The only severe problem for R is her poor population. R has almost all kinds of resourse it need to develop, but it doesn't have a huge market has we do. So it has to export oil gas at this particular stage.

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## 帅的一匹

Ruisheng said:


> The only severe problem for R is her poor population. R has almost all kinds of resourse it need to develop, but it doesn't have a huge market has we do. So it has to export oil gas at this particular stage.


Do you think its weird for 100 million people live in a land mass of 20 millions SQM? Part of the far east used to be CHina's land, and the outer Mongoia was forced out by Soviet pressure. WE shall not forget those traumas.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Forget about those lands, maybe we can ask Russia for the exchange of the Outer Mongolia, while we can support them to take back Ukraine.


It's too late for take back outer Mongoia, we shall concentrate on Taiwan first.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Edison Chen said:


> 1, The depreciation of Russian Rub will exert a bad influence on RMB. Actually, not only Russia, Brazil, India and Indonesia also have depreciation pressures, people have concern over the emerging market where the capital is evacuating quickly. While China's economy is coming to a difficult time, so this time around China should help Russia.
> 
> 2, The drop of oil prices is bad for Russia but good for China, it will ease the inflation and it is also a chance to reform the old system of oil and gas price in China into market based pricing system.
> 
> China can help Russia but not for free. Time is different. Now Russia need China more than we need them. What can Russia give China in return except natural resources and military technology?



The natural resources indeed, but the military technology not much.

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## Ruisheng

wanglaokan said:


> Firstly turn back the occupied 1 million SQM land of the far east to China, then we talk.
> 
> The only reason we shall help them is because of bully of USA, i don't like Russians at all.


Naïve I have to say. If we took Siberia back now, the whole US Pacific fleet will target on us. And also R need a warm water port on Pacific as well as Crimea.


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## 帅的一匹

Soviet and Old Russia that took away the most land of CHina in the over 200 years. They shall pay it in the future, they are not worthy sympathized.



Ruisheng said:


> Naïve I have to say. If we took Siberia back now, the whole US Pacific fleet will target on us. And also R need a warm water port on Pacific as well as Crimea.


You get too soft on Rusky, they are not some saint there.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Kyle Sun said:


> Let's see who will give up first.



The modern finance systems were designed by the Jewish Oligarchs, so it is impossible to beat them in their own game.

The only way to win is to bypass their rules.

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## 帅的一匹

One of the main reason why Nehru dared to lacunch attack is they got the promise and support from Soviet/as well as press milions troops along CHina/Soviet border, they are evil.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The modern finance systems were designed by the Jewish Oligarchs, so it is impossible to beat them in their own game.
> 
> The only way to win is to bypass their rules.


to build a Chinese rule


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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> It's too late for take back outer Mongoia, we shall concentrate on Taiwan first.



The Outer Mongolia only has 3 million Mongols, while we have 30 million ethnic Mongolians.

The Outer Mongolia is dirty poor with only few thousands of anti-China Neo-Nazi groups, so it is not a big deal.

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## 帅的一匹

My suggestion is China shall extend certain help to Russia with conditions.

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> to build a Chinese rule



That's why we are trying to build our own RMB hub everywhere.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Outer Mongolia only has 3 million Mongols, while we have 30 million ethnic Mongolians.
> 
> The Outer Mongolia is dirty poor with only few thousands of anti-China Neo-Nazi groups, so it is not a big deal.


Whey will ask for back if there economy is down.


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## Ruisheng

wanglaokan said:


> Do you think its weird for 100 million people live in a land mass of 20 millions SQM? Part of the far east used to be CHina's land, and the outer Mongoia was forced out by Soviet pressure. WE shall not forget those traumas.
> 
> 
> It's too late for take back outer Mongoia, we shall concentrate on Taiwan first.


Don't think about Mongolia or Siberia, too far from now. This is not a good time to claim Manchuria back. If we are superpower as US was 20 years ago, then it will show some possiblility.
And the leader mustn't be Putin.

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> My suggestion is China shall extend certain help to Russia with conditions.



Russia to concede her influence in the Outer Mongolia to China, so that would be the most acceptable condition for them.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That's why we are trying to build our own RMB hub everywhere.


We CHina has soft power, which Rusky lacks.

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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> *China needs clear strategy to help Russia*
> Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-17
> 
> What realistic options does China have to assist Russia in one of its deepest economic crises that is the result of a geopolitical stand-off with the West (US)?
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon , @Nihonjin1051 , @Keel , @tranquilium , @Edison Chen , @Raphael , @xunzi , @cirr , @ChineseTiger1986 , @terranMarine @yusheng , @Ruisheng , @wanglaokan , @JSCh _at al_.


China economy is going down too, ur oil demand also reduce.


> *Oil Futures Weighed by Demand Worries*
> 
> Email
> 
> 
> Print
> 
> 
> 0 Comments
> 
> 
> Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter
> 
> 
> LinkedIn
> 
> smaller
> 
> Larger
> 
> 
> By
> DAN STRUMPF
> CONNECT
> Updated May 13, 2013 3:36 p.m. ET
> NEW YORK--Oil futures settled lower for the third straight session, weighed by concerns over weakening demand in China and robust global production.
> 
> Futures headed lower after data released Monday showed Chinese industrial output in April came in at 9.3% above last year's level--an improvement over a tepid March reading but under the 9.5% forecast by analysts surveyed by The Wall Street Journal.
> 
> The report was the latest underscoring slowing economic growth in China, which in turn has left the oil market worried demand for crude-oil is slowing there, too. China is the world's fastest-growing large economy and the boom has fueled a rise in oil prices over the last several years
> Oil Futures Weighed by Demand Worries, OPEC Output - WSJ


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## 帅的一匹

Ruisheng said:


> Don't think about Mongolia or Siberia, too far from now. This is not a good time to claim Manchuria back. If we are superpower as US was 20 years ago, then it will show some possiblility.


We are getting stronger everyday, you can exclude USA and Russia join hands to deal with China in the future.


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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> We CHina has soft power, which Rusky lacks.



No need to make fun at them, since they will still be our good assistant to confront against the US hegemony.

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## dlclong

Global Times has hair article, we couldn't look at Russia down, China will help Russia


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## 帅的一匹

NiceGuy said:


> China economy is going down too, ur oil demand also reduce.


Now the oil future only 50 per bucks, you will count 30 dollars deficit per buck if you produce one in SCS>



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> No need to make fun at them, since they will still be our good assistant to confront against the US hegemony.


Sure, i'm jusy joking. Rusky shall make clear of their minds that they will going down the drain no time without CHina help.


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## Special Delivery

China will never help Russia at its own expense. There's a reason why the West has allowed for the rise of China and sent you all that good business.


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## 帅的一匹

dlclong said:


> Global Times has hair article, we couldn't look at Russia down, China will help Russia


三国鼎立。蜀国被废，吴国危矣。该是伸出援手的时候了！



Special Delivery said:


> China will never help Russia at its own expense. There's a reason why the West has allowed for the rise of China and sent you all that good business.


We will help them i think. Why not? If Russia is down, we will be highly risky. I never trust what the westners say, keep it to yourself.

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## Ruisheng

wanglaokan said:


> We are getting stronger everyday, you can exclude USA and Russia join hands to deal with China in the future.


keep the words until you do achieve that, or you are just like an Indian.


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## 帅的一匹

What China could do to help Rusky overcome the predicment?


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> China economy is going down too, ur oil demand also reduce.



If both China and Russia going down, then be sure that the US will turn your little Vietnam into Libya 2.0.

Gaddafi was alleged to be the mastermind behind the Pan Am Flight 103, just look what the West has done to him later.

Vietcong has caused the death of over 50000 US soldiers, then expect the US would turn your country into hell if there is no more China and Russia.

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## AMDR

China is presented with a situation to make A LOT of money. It will be interesting to see what they do.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> If both China and Russia going down, then be sure that the US will turn your little Vietnam into Libya 2.0.
> 
> Gaddafi was alleged to be the mastermind behind the Pan Am Flight 103, just look what the West has done to him later.
> 
> Vietcong has caused the death of over 50000 US soldiers, then except the US would turn your country into hell if there is no China and Russia.


It's very hard for Vietnam friends to understand ’唇亡齿寒‘. There brain is not large enough for this.

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## 帅的一匹

AMDR said:


> China is presented with a situation to make A LOT of money. It will be interesting to see what they do.


The oil price collapse benifits CHina lot for sure.

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> Sure, i'm jusy joking. Rusky shall make clear of their minds that they will going down the drain no time without CHina help.



BTW, Russia's military might is still equivalent to ours, so we can still make them an equivalent partner in our new world order campaign.

In fact, Putin himself just wants to prove that he is equal to China, so no problem at all.

We will treat Russia as our equal partner instead of a junior partner.



NiceGuy said:


> If China collapse, we will immediately take back Guangdong-Guangxi and start unify sub-Mekong region again. We will shake hand tightly wt India , and both of us will create a large defense area that US can not touch us
> 
> So, u must wish China will not collapse, other while, u will lose Guangdong-Guangxi



Let's to be realistic, you cannot swallow any land from China, but instead you would become the prey of the US.

It even takes so much effort for Russia to swallow a tiny Crimea with full of ethnic Russians, and tell me how Vietnam can swallow the entire South China who are ethnically completely different from the Viets?

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> 真他妈压抑，估计得再混个20年才能翻身。
> 
> 
> 是个优秀的傀儡



China has grown above anyone's expectation.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Ruisheng said:


> 生在这个时代已经很好了，想想那些到死都没看到新中国的先辈，我们真的很幸福。



2020 is the key year, so now the time is pretty tight for us.

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## yusheng

first, if Russian collapsed, then the west would turn to deal with China fully, so in this case, China will help Russian anyway, but the way is not so clear and need to observe. of course, the preparation has never stopped, you can check China and Russian oil contact, currency-exchange contact

经国务院批准，2014年10月13日，中国人民银行与俄罗斯联邦中央银行签署了规模为1500亿元人民币/8150亿卢布的双边本币互换协议，旨在便利双边贸易及直接投资，促进两国经济发展。互换协议有效期三年，经双方同意可以展期。
经过多次谈判，中国石油天然气集团公司（下称“中石油”）终于从俄罗斯扩大了进口石油的规模。俄罗斯未来25年每年将向中国供应4600万吨石油。中石油将为俄石油支付700亿美元的预付款。但双方并未透露此次原油出口协议的具体价格。

these two contacts on doubt have political considerations which are kinds of preparations for today's situation Russian is facing. you can regard them as tools, however, how to use it need to be seen. 

US is good at monetary war, but this time China takes part in, the monetary war will be much more interesting, we just wait and see. there will be unexpected consequences ahead for US. 

seond, Russian internal stablity keeps well compared to the American's strikes. Russian has the biggest territorial area, huge reserve of oil, gas, forest,water which are fundation of Russian economy now. even a gas trade with China alone can supply Russian for a pretty while when China is annoyed by surplus of production.


third, look at Russian recently military activities, if you think it is only swagger, then you don't really understand Putin, he will do anything to keep Russian alive when the US is facing its troubles at the same time . i don't mean the ww3, but military is a choise in a degree if......

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## northeast

人均GDP超越俄罗斯可以掰着手指头数日子了


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## Ruisheng

yusheng said:


> first, if Russian collapsed, then the west would turn to deal with China fully, so in this case, China will help Russian anyway, but the way is not so clear and need to observe. of course, the preparation has never stopped, you can check China and Russian oil contact, currency-exchange contact
> 
> 经国务院批准，2014年10月13日，中国人民银行与俄罗斯联邦中央银行签署了规模为1500亿元人民币/8150亿卢布的双边本币互换协议，旨在便利双边贸易及直接投资，促进两国经济发展。互换协议有效期三年，经双方同意可以展期。
> 经过多次谈判，中国石油天然气集团公司（下称“中石油”）终于从俄罗斯扩大了进口石油的规模。俄罗斯未来25年每年将向中国供应4600万吨石油。中石油将为俄石油支付700亿美元的预付款。但双方并未透露此次原油出口协议的具体价格。
> 
> these two contacts on doubt have political considerations which are kinds of preparations for today's situation Russian is facing. you can regard them as tools, however, how to use it need to be seen.
> 
> US is good at monetary war, but this time China takes part in, the monetary war will be much more interesting, we just wait and see. there will be unexpected consequences ahead for US.
> 
> seond, Russian internal stablity keeps well compared to the American's strikes. Russian has the biggest territorial area, huge reserve of oil, gas, forest,water which are fundation of Russian economy now. even a gas trade with China alone can supply Russian for a pretty while when China is annoyed by surplus of production.
> 
> 
> third, look at Russian recently military activities, if you think it is only swagger, then you don't really understand Putin, he will do anything to keep Russian alive when the US is facing its troubles at the same time . i don't mean the ww3, but military is a choise in a degree if......


逼他们用人民币结账，这里面的好处比多买两桶油大多了。我们今年向他们推销高铁，这个节点简直特么神了好么。


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## TaiShang

Interesting reader's comment.

"i believe russia is not in such a bad shape, as long as the usd is high, which means it makes fx gains by selling oil (settled in usd) and in the fx markets. the u.s. is now an oil exporter and a major market player, low oil prices will impact its oil industry too. opec is not helping the u.s., it is working for its own good.

despite the fact the russia's financial strength is much better than the old ussr, china does play a vital role to counter the u.s. salvo of financial attacks nowadays, e.g. the currency swap deal which releases fx pressure for both countries, and all these measures will only draw the sino-russian pact closer, along with the other countries which do not want to be dragged into the u.s. agenda.

i also believe the currency war between china and the u.s. has in fact long started, as many authors have already written books about it.

the largest shale gas deposit is not in the u.s. but in china, and it's not even being touched much yet."

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## ChineseTiger1986

Ruisheng said:


> 又来，毛那会儿也不是没有腐败，砍了你不知道而已。毛邓其实根本就是一脉相承，只是时期不同，路线偏重点不同而已。不搞改开，我们就跟毛子一样颜色革命了。偏左偏右就跟抓腐败一样，时刻调整，没有完结的那天。



The economic reform after the Mao era was a must, but the corruption created during the reform era needs to be completely purged.

Xi Jinping now faces the problems that never seen during the Mao and Deng era, so he has his own grand wisdom as well.

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## cirr

NiceGuy said:


> If China collapse, we will immediately take back Guangdong-Guangxi and start unify sub-Mekong region again. We will shake hand tightly wt India , and both of us will create a large defense area that US can not touch us
> 
> So, u must wish China will not collapse, other while, u will lose Guangdong-Guangxi



You would have been dead 100 times by the time China collapses。

And when China collapses，the whole world collapses。

Then we can all call it a day and start afresh。

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## TaiShang

Another question is, how long could Saudis tolerate low oil prices?

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## Ruisheng

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The economic reform after the Mao era was a must, but the corruption created during the reform era needs to be completely purged.
> 
> Xi Jinping now faces the problems that never seen during the Mao and Deng era, so he has his own grand wisdom as well.


人的觉悟没到那个层次，腐败就始终会存在。人身上每天都会有细胞突变，甚至是癌变，但你为啥不生癌？你的免疫系统在不停的查杀查杀。时代在变，国家的战略思想也要与时俱进，邓小平为什么伟大？他把整个国家拉回到正确的路上来，在他那个时代只有他有这个能力。他之后，经济规模扩张到今天这个地步，腐败在所难免，怕就怕你不去打。单细胞动物会有癌症吗？当然不会。

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## ChineseTiger1986

TaiShang said:


> Another question is, how long could Saudis tolerate low oil prices?



It is not about the Saudis, it is about the US.

Now Russia serves as the buffer zone between China and the US/NATO.

So it is crystal clear that the US is trying to destroy this buffer zone, then they could surround China from four sides.

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## Ruisheng

TaiShang said:


> Another question is, how long could Saudis tolerate low oil prices?


the longer the better

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## ChineseTiger1986

Ruisheng said:


> 人的觉悟没到那个层次，腐败就始终会存在。人身上每天都会有细胞突变，甚至是癌变，但你为啥不生癌？你的免疫系统在不停的查杀查杀。时代在变，国家的战略思想也要与时俱进，邓小平为什么伟大？他把整个国家拉回到正确的路上来，在他那个时代只有他有这个能力。他之后，经济规模扩张到今天这个地步，腐败在所难免，怕就怕你不去打。单细胞动物会有癌症吗？当然不会。



That's why Mao was completely right, the class warfare will never end.

Just like you need to scan and to clean the virus in your computer in every particular period.

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## cirr

NiceGuy said:


> If China collapse,u will be divided into pieces, then u will be 100 times weaker than VN



if only wet-dreaming helps you find self-esteem and lessen personal insecurities。

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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is not about the Saudis, it is about the US.
> 
> Now Russia serves as the buffer zone between China and the US/NATO.
> 
> So it is crystal clear that the US is trying to destroy his buffer zone, then they could surround China from four sides.



I agree. That's why China will never allow Russia to plunge into chaos.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Forget about those lands, maybe we can ask Russia for the exchange of the Outer Mongolia, *while we can support them to take back Ukraine.*


do you want to face economic sanction and go down as well?


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## Ruisheng

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is not about the Saudis, it is about the US.
> 
> Now Russia serves as the buffer zone between China and the US/NATO.
> 
> So it is crystal clear that the US is trying to destroy this buffer zone, then they could surround China from four sides.


如果沙特把老美逼急了，老美完全有可能下狠手抛弃盟友，毕竟君主制槽点太多。不过沙特有一点不同，人家是交了党费的。


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## Viet

TaiShang said:


> I agree. That's why China will never allow Russia to plunge into chaos.


I wonder how you want to bail them out? buying russian oil by $100 when the market price is $60? no, it is too late. the ball has rolled. by the way, chinese money is not cheap, not for russia. I was against russian politics in eastern ukraine, and predicted such thing would come.


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## ChineseTiger1986

TaiShang said:


> I agree. That's why China will never allow Russia to plunge into chaos.



The goal of NATO's eastward expansion is not just Ukraine at the border with Russia, but eventually to Kazakhstan at the border with China's Xinjiang.

Their final grand scheme is to squeeze China in between the NATO from Central Asia and the US led alliance in the Asia-Pacific region.

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## Ruisheng

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That's why Mao was completely right, the class warfare will never end.
> 
> Just like you need to scan and to clean the virus in your computer in every particular period.


这个，我觉得是人民内部矛盾。


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## NiceGuy

cirr said:


> You would have been dead 100 times by the time China collapses。
> 
> And when China collapses，the whole world collapses。
> 
> Then we can all call it a day and start afresh。


I just wanna tell u that, US wont be our problem when China collapse , so try to survive, if u collapse, then its ur own problem, we dont worry that Vn could be the next target for US (maybe the VN communist leaders could be the next target, but who cares, I'm not the leader ?? )


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> I wonder how you want to bail them out? it is too late. the ball has rolled. by the way, chinese money is not cheap, not for russia. I was against russian politics in eastern ukraine, and predicted such thing would come.



You Vietcong will never understand the balance importance between China and Russia.

Putin is our buffer zone, thus he is our natural ally.

The West is now trying to pull out a Gaddafi 2.0 on him, and how China will just stay there and do nothing to help its buffer zone?

It is crystal clear that the West wanna first destroy the Russian economy, then to create the conflict between the dissatisfied Russian citizens and Putin's government. Eventually, they will stir up another color revolution to overthrow Putin.

Didn't you know that we are still buying Russia's oil at $135 per barrel? Despite the current oil price is less than $60 per barrel. We are clearly trying to help him.

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## boke

不好说，俄罗斯毕竟是瘦死骆驼比马大，它不会那么容易玩完的，普京不过是在表现虚弱的表现，如果中国把自己捆绑在苏联的战车上那就不用赶在现在，当初苏联想捆绑中国老毛就没同意，要不然起码朝鲜和越南在政治上不会和中国那么疏远。现在的问题是中国需要一个和平发展的环境，即使是有冲突对抗那也必须是和自身的利益直接相关而不是扛起他国的负资产。毕竟，钓鱼岛和南海利益涉及中国的核心利益，俄也没有表现出该有的盟友态度，卖武器，联合探油，在国际舆论方面也并不支持中国维护核心利益，现在需要中国来帮忙了，那么为什么我们要无谓的牺牲呢？我们的那么多领土都是在当今俄的非法侵占下，俄也心安理得的继续占着，甚至连句反省道歉都没有，这样我们还要主动网上贴？为什么？


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## Viet

wanglaokan said:


> The oil price collapse benifits CHina lot for sure.


benefit china? not necessary. china is a oil producer as well. you suffer, too. have you forgotten you have large investments in overseas in oil and gas sectors? all of those investments make losses. 100%. with the current oil price, only the saudi laugh because they have very low cost.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> benefit china? not necessary. china is a oil producer as well. you suffer, too. have you forgotten you have large investments in overseas in oil and gas sectors? all of those investments make losses. 100%.



We import much more than our production.

Also, our production is purely for the domestic consumption, since we don't export any oil.

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## Ruisheng

boke said:


> 不好说，俄罗斯毕竟是瘦死骆驼比马大，它不会那么容易玩完的，普京不过是在表现虚弱的表现，如果中国把自己捆绑在苏联的战车上那就不用赶在现在，当初苏联想捆绑中国老毛就没同意，要不然起码朝鲜和越南在政治上不会和中国那么疏远。现在的问题是中国需要一个和平发展的环境，即使是有冲突对抗那也必须是和自身的利益直接相关而不是扛起他国的负资产。毕竟，钓鱼岛和南海利益涉及中国的核心利益，俄也没有表现出该有的盟友态度，卖武器，联合探油，在国际舆论方面也并不支持中国维护核心利益，现在需要中国来帮忙了，那么为什么我们要无谓的牺牲呢？我们的那么多领土都是在当今俄的非法侵占下，俄也心安理得的继续占着，甚至连句反省道歉都没有，这样我们还要主动网上贴？为什么？


没人卖他东西的时候我们卖，就是在帮他了。我们不可能免费供应。


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You Vietcong will never understand the balance importance between China and Russia.
> 
> Putin is our buffer zone, thus he is our natural ally.
> 
> The West is now trying to pull out a Gaddafi 2.0 on him, and how China will just stay there and do nothing to help its buffer zone?
> 
> It is crystal clear that the West wanna first destroy the Russian economy, then to create the conflict between the dissatisfied Russian citizens and Putin's government. Eventually, they will stir up another color revolution to overthrow Putin.
> 
> Didn't you know that we are still buying Russia's oil at $135 per barrel? Despite the current oil price is less than $60 per barrel. We are clearly trying to help him.


you buy Russia's oil at $135 per barrel? nice for russia, if true. I bet it is an old contract. will you ready to close a new contract with $100 per barrel?

come on, you know how politics is in reality. russia as buffer zone? against whom? all I can see is you cozy up to the americans. if you lose the US market, your future is dark. so, it is better, don´t mess with america.


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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You Vietcong will never understand the balance importance between China and Russia.
> 
> Putin is our buffer zone, thus he is our natural ally.
> 
> The West is now trying to pull out a Gaddafi 2.0 on him, and how China will just stay there and do nothing to help its buffer zone?
> 
> It is crystal clear that the West wanna first destroy the Russian economy, then to create the conflict between the dissatisfied Russian citizens and Putin's government. Eventually, they will stir up another color revolution to overthrow Putin.
> 
> Didn't you know that we are still buying Russia's oil at $135 per barrel? Despite the current oil price is less than $60 per barrel. We are clearly trying to help him.


We understand that if Russia die, China will die ,too. But we also understand that when China die, VN will still survive and have a big chance to take back Guangdong-Guangxi-Paracel-Spratly plus a chance to unify sub-Mekong region.

Its just like when China died by Mongol, Vn had lots of time to annex small neighbours , so who cares if China collapse


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> We understand that if Russia die, China will die ,too. But we also understand that when China die, VN will still survive and have a big chance to take back Guangdong-Guangxi-Paracel-Spratly plus a chance to unify sub-Mekong region.
> 
> Its just like when China died by Mongol, Vn had lots of time to annex small neighbours , so who cares if China collapse



China will get surrounded by the NATO if Russia got destroyed first.

But it is not going to happen as Putin's Russia won't die.

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## cirr

Oil has hit a rough patch which has provided us with the time needed to gather and perfect the know-hows for future shale oil/gas exploration and production。

The US，being the leader in shale oil and a just-turned net energy exporter，surely regrets “investing” trillions of USDs in a business that was starting to look very promising but now suddenly turns loss-making。

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We import much more than our production.
> 
> Also, our production is purely for the domestic consumption, since we don't export any oil.


how much is your domestic production cost per barrel?
if it is lower than market price, it is better to import more oil.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> you buy Russia's oil at $135 per barrel? nice for russia, if true. I bet it is an old contract. will you ready to close a new contract with $100 per barrel?
> 
> come on, you know how politics is in reality. russia as buffer zone? against whom? all I can see is you cozy up to the americans. if you lose the US market, your future is dark. so, it is better, don´t mess with america.



Nope, we can do business with the US, but it won't change the fact that the US will also remain as our biggest geopolitical opponent.

Just like Russia still does business with Exxon Mobil despite the western sanctions, but does this mean that Russia and the US become the friend? Nope.

The world geopolitics is much more complicated than you thought.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China will get surrounded by the NATO if Russia got destroyed first.
> 
> But it is not going to happen as Putin's Russia won't die.


If u dont wanna die, then u should help VN to unify sub-Mekong region, when we get stronger, we can offer more help back to u


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> how much is your domestic production cost per barrel?
> if it is lower than market price, it is better to import more oil.



Our oil production is tiny compared to the amount of oil import.

And many of our oil fields are closed or remain untouched.

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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> We understand that if Russia die, China will die ,too. But we also understand that when China die, VN will still survive and have a big chance to take back Guangdong-Guangxi-Paracel-Spratly plus a chance to unify sub-Mekong region.
> 
> Its just like when China died by Mongol, Vn had lots of time to annex small neighbours , so who cares if China collapse



Now you start dreaming a proxy collapse of China as a result of a far-fetched collapse of Russia? You are verging dangerously on insanity, my friend. Too much hatred blinds your vision.



Viet said:


> benefit china? not necessary. china is a oil producer as well. you suffer, too. have you forgotten you have large investments in overseas in oil and gas sectors? all of those investments make losses. 100%. with the current oil price, only the saudi laugh because they have very low cost.



China's domestic production is for domestic consumption only. So, cheap oil prices help China. In fact, there was news on the increased activity on China's part in terms of oil shipments. This is the right time to fill up China's SPRs.



Viet said:


> I wonder how you want to bail them out? buying russian oil by $100 when the market price is $60? no, it is too late. the ball has rolled. by the way, chinese money is not cheap, not for russia. I was against russian politics in eastern ukraine, and predicted such thing would come.



China and Russia already signed a slew of contracts and agreements, way before Western sanctions started to bite. There will be a way out, rest assured. So, do not start too early to jump on behalf of the West.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The eastward expansion of the NATO is just not Ukraine at the border with Russia, but to Kazakhstan at the border with China's Xinjiang.
> 
> Their final grand scheme is to squeeze China in between the NATO from Central Asia and the US led alliance in the Asia-Pacific region.



US has played a double strategy on China and Russia. Because China is strong financially, it played the Hong Kong stunt on China and apparently failed.

On Russia, they are playing the economy game (because their earlier plot to soft kill Putin failed). Russia will emerge from this even stronger because there is China right at the border.

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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> If u dont wanna die, then u should help VN to unify sub-Mekong region, when we get stronger, we can offer more help back to u



Ask Cambodia and Laos if they wanna join with you, not us or Russia.

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## Viet

TaiShang said:


> Interesting reader's comment.
> 
> "i believe russia is not in such a bad shape, as long as the usd is high, which means it makes fx gains by selling oil (settled in usd) and in the fx markets. the u.s. is now an oil exporter and a major market player, low oil prices will impact its oil industry too. opec is not helping the u.s., it is working for its own good.
> 
> despite the fact the russia's financial strength is much better than the old ussr, china does play a vital role to counter the u.s. salvo of financial attacks nowadays, e.g. the currency swap deal which releases fx pressure for both countries, and all these measures will only draw the sino-russian pact closer, along with the other countries which do not want to be dragged into the u.s. agenda.
> 
> i also believe the currency war between china and the u.s. has in fact long started, as many authors have already written books about it.
> 
> the largest shale gas deposit is not in the u.s. but in china, and it's not even being touched much yet."


do you realise that russia does not have access to half of its USD currency reserves because of the western sanctions?
the other half will be vanished soon because russia state owned companies have huge debts at western banks. the loans are short term. very bad.

no, it is too late. but I admit china will benefit greatly at this disaster as you can buy cheap in russia. No, it is better for russia if they cozy up to vietnam. traditionally the russians hate you.


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## Chinese-Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our oil production is tiny compared to the amount of oil import.
> 
> And many of our oil fields are closed or remain untouched.



We need to tap our Shale reserves. That will last us for thousands of years, we won't have to worry about instability in the Middle East sending oil prices soaring.

We should keep our regular oil and gas as a strategic reserve, for use during times of war.

Oil is cheap now, and our strategic reserves are being filled up right now.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Ask Cambodia and Laos if they wanna join with you, not us or Russia.


I told u many time that half of Laotian pplation r VNese, Cam's military forces r under Vn control, they r no longer our problem after 1979. We only need help to make Myanmar-Thailand understand the important of an united sub-Mekong region.

And I think both China-Russia should help VN and other sub-Mekong nations to create a strong sub-Mekong region. then we (sub-Mekong region) will help u guys back


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## ChineseTiger1986

Chinese-Dragon said:


> We need to tap our Shale reserves. That will last us for thousands of years, we won't have to worry about instability in the Middle East sending oil prices soaring.



Our reserve of shale oil/gas is huge, but it is harder to get than those on the US soil.

Thus, it requires more technological breakthrough for our Sinopec and CNPC.



Viet said:


> do you realise that russia does not have access to half of its USD currency reserves because of the western sanctions?
> the other half will be vanished soon because russia state owned companies have huge debts at western banks. the loans are short term. very bad.
> 
> no, it is too late. but I admit china will benefit greatly at this disaster as you can buy cheap in russia. No, *it is better for russia if they cozy up to vietnam*. traditionally the russians hate you.



Vietnam is too small to offset the devastation from the western sanctions.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our oil production is *tiny* compared to the amount of oil import.
> 
> And many of our oil fields are closed or remain untouched.


well, more than 4 million barrels a day is not tiny. ok, china is big. you have different view.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> well, more than 4 million barrels a day is not tiny. ok, china is big. you have different view.
> View attachment 176640



It is still a small amount of our total oil consumption.

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## cirr

Vietnam is one of the worst hit countries in the on-going heinous declines of oil prices。

It is not under the international spot light because the country is of little or no consequence to others.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Nope, we can do business with the US, but it won't change the fact that the US will also remain as our biggest geopolitical opponent.
> 
> Just like Russia still does business with Exxon Mobil despite the western sanctions, but does this mean that Russia and the US become the friend? Nope.
> 
> The world geopolitics is much more complicated than you thought.


sure, I understand you see america as your biggest geopolitical opponent. after all, they stand in your way as you seek hegemony in asia. without US military presence in Japan, Korea and Philippines and elsewhere, how can the smaller nations stop a hooligan like you? No, we know YOU.


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## ChineseTiger1986

cirr said:


> Vietnam is one of the worst hit countries in the on-going heinous declines of oil prices。
> 
> It is not under the international spot light because the country is of little or no consequence to others.



Well, Iran is at an even more dangerous situation than Russia, since they depend the oil economy even more than Russia.



Viet said:


> sure, I understand you see america as your biggest geopolitical opponent. after all, they stand in your way as you seek hegemony in asia. without US military presence in Japan, Korea and Philippines and elsewhere, how can the smaller nations stop a hooligan like you. No, we know YOU.



There is the China-Russia axis to balance the US hegemony.

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## Viet

cirr said:


> *Vietnam *is one of the worst hit countries in the on-going heinous declines of oil prices。
> 
> It is not under the international spot light because the country is of little or no consequence to others.


wrong, indonesia is the another hardest hit country. you can bail them out next. their currency collapses as well.

Indonesia’s Rupiah Erases Decline After Central Bank Intervenes - Bloomberg


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## NiceGuy

cirr said:


> Vietnam is one of the worst hit countries in the on-going heinous declines of oil prices。
> 
> It is not under the international spot light because the country is of little or no consequence to others.


Yeah, we also got hit hard from low oil price, so it seems like we have to offer more privilege to US soon if China-Russia dont help VN to unify sub-Mekong region.


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## Viet

Chinese-Dragon said:


> We need to tap our Shale reserves. That will last us for thousands of years, we won't have to worry about instability in the Middle East sending oil prices soaring.
> 
> We should keep our regular oil and gas as a strategic reserve, for use during times of war.
> 
> Oil is cheap now, and our strategic reserves are being filled up right now.


shale gas and oil is not cheap to produce. it costs the american companies between $50 to $100 a barrel to produce. besides, producing shale gas/oil brings negative environmental effects. all needs to take into calculation. at current market price, it does not make sense.


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## Beast

boke said:


> 不好说，俄罗斯毕竟是瘦死骆驼比马大，它不会那么容易玩完的，普京不过是在表现虚弱的表现，如果中国把自己捆绑在苏联的战车上那就不用赶在现在，当初苏联想捆绑中国老毛就没同意，要不然起码朝鲜和越南在政治上不会和中国那么疏远。现在的问题是中国需要一个和平发展的环境，即使是有冲突对抗那也必须是和自身的利益直接相关而不是扛起他国的负资产。毕竟，钓鱼岛和南海利益涉及中国的核心利益，俄也没有表现出该有的盟友态度，卖武器，联合探油，在国际舆论方面也并不支持中国维护核心利益，现在需要中国来帮忙了，那么为什么我们要无谓的牺牲呢？我们的那么多领土都是在当今俄的非法侵占下，俄也心安理得的继续占着，甚至连句反省道歉都没有，这样我们还要主动网上贴？为什么？


好主意。 要老毛子先出战船支持南海中国海军。 表明态度。 然后我们才和他联盟。


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## SOHEIL

@vostok 

What is your idea!?


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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> Now you start dreaming a proxy collapse of China as a result of a far-fetched collapse of Russia? You are verging dangerously on insanity, my friend. Too much hatred blinds your vision.
> .


Soviet collapse when we seriously needed they help (in 1988 our inflation rate was 800 %), but we didnt die. China collapse in 12 century bcz of Mongol invasion gave Vn a big chance to annex other small nations.

So, I think VN will gain benefit from the collapse of China again just like in 12 century


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## ChineseTiger1986

SOHEIL said:


> @vostok
> 
> What is your idea!?



Well, Russia is very powerful itself, so it doesn't need to be babysit by China at all.

But our suggest is about the new Eurasian HSR, so it will help Russia to reduce the dependence on the oil economy.

Same for Iran, you will also get benefited from this new silk road.

The West has already declared the economic war on Russia, and they wanna make Russia bleeding to dry, so it is better to find a better solution right now.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Now, Iran is at a even more dangerous situation than Russia, since they depend the oil economy even more than Russia..


well, the saudi will laugh if their enemy iran goes down the drain. that is one of the reasons why the saudis constantly reject to descrease the production. we all can expect the oil price declining further.


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## 帅的一匹

Ruisheng said:


> 同志们，爱国情绪高涨是好事，但同时也不要骄傲自大，否则就会变成大跃进那种情况。小平就说过，右很危险，但主要是防左。


薄熙来这种人要坚决铲除，就是个伪左。都他妈2014年了还唱红歌呢！垃圾！

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## cnleio

The Vietnamese members talk here is very funny, coz right now the Oil Price is the cheapest in history. It's indeed a Big Good time for oil demand country like China but very Bad time for Oil Export country like Russia.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> well, the saudi will laugh if their enemy iran goes down the drain. that is one of the reasons why the saudis constantly reject to descrease the production. we all can expect the oil price declining further.



The primary attempt for the US in this oil price war is to make Russia bleeding to the drain.

While KSA could definitely take this opportunity to make one stone two birds on both Russia and Iran.

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## somsak

NiceGuy said:


> We understand that if Russia die, China will die ,too. But we also understand that when China die, VN will still survive and have a big chance to take back Guangdong-Guangxi-Paracel-Spratly plus a chance to unify sub-Mekong region.
> 
> Its just like when China died by Mongol, Vn had lots of time to annex small neighbours , so who cares if China collapse


No Dude. We all will have native American fate. We will be native Asian after Nuclear Blast. Historian will write that we all died because Nuclear blasts and the decease afterward, which in fact not true. Then the conquerer will hunt us like animals.

I have been playing Sid Mier 's Colonization since childhood. I understand too well. If all major native civilizations destroyed, then the whole continents are free for all. Small native nations cannot fight us, the colonists.

You better read Native American fate. They used to have same apperance like you, and me. But now they are more handsome&beutiful because their ancestors were violated by colonists.


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## 帅的一匹

Viet said:


> benefit china? not necessary. china is a oil producer as well. you suffer, too. have you forgotten you have large investments in overseas in oil and gas sectors? all of those investments make losses. 100%. with the current oil price, only the saudi laugh because they have very low cost.


We only consume oil, we are not exporting oils.


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## Viet

cnleio said:


> The Vietnamese members talk here is very funny, coz right now the Oil Price is the cheapest in history. It's indeed a Big Good time for oil demand country like China but very Bad time for Oil Export country like Russia.


wrong, oil price was cheaper. it crashed to $40 a barrel in 2009.
yes, you will profit from the crisis. I hope you show some mercy to the russians.


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## 帅的一匹

somsak said:


> No Dude. We all will have native American fate. We will be native Asian after Nuclear Blast. Historian will write that we all died because Nuclear blasts and the decease afterward, which in fact not true. Then the conquerer will hunt us like animals.
> 
> I have been playing Sid Mier 's Colonization since childhood. I understand too well. If all major native civilizations destroyed, then the whole continents are free for all. Small native nations cannot fight us, the colonists.
> 
> You better read Native American fate. They used to have same apperance like you, and me. But now they are more handsome&beutiful because their ancestors were violated by colonists.


I support Thaksin and Yingluck



Viet said:


> wrong, oil price was cheaper. it crashed to $40 a barrel in 2009.
> yes, you will profit from the crisis. I hope you show some mercy to the russians.


We will help Russia for sure. If Vietnam is going down,we will help you as well cause we are communist brothers.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The primary attempt for the US in this oil price war is to make Russia bleeding to the drain.
> 
> While KSA could definitely take this opportunity to make one stone two birds on both Russia and Iran.


yes, oil as weapon.


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## cnleio

How China help Russia ?
1. If BeiJing smart, make China become the HongKong of Russia, an Export Hub.
2. If BeiJing smart, directly barter trade with Russia, Goods exchange Techs (especially jet engine, nuclear-sub).
3. If BeiJing smart, now RMB dominate Russian exchange market.
4. If BeiJing smart, if possible buy/rent Russia lands.

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## NiceGuy

cnleio said:


> The Vietnamese members talk here is very funny, coz right now the Oil Price is the cheapest in history. It's indeed a Big Good time for oil demand country like China but very Bad time for Oil E xport country like Russia.


As* ChineseTiger1986 *said that China must buy oil at 135 USD/abrrel from Russia, so it seems like China is losing a lot


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> yes, oil as weapon.



We will help Russia to recover, but not to take the advantage on them.

Yeah, I saw in yesterday that the Moscow stock exchange is like a war zone, it is freaking mind boggling.

The US has just economically nuked Russia, meanwhile they are also sending a warning message to intimidate China.

This is pretty much the US style, just like they have physically nuked Japan but also sending a warning message to intimidate USSR.

But don't worry, all the major powers prefer to use the bluff to intimidate each other.



NiceGuy said:


> As* ChineseTiger1986 *said that China must buy oil at 135 USD/abrrel from Russia, so it seems like China is losing a lot



Nope, we now import the oil from many different countries at the price of less than $60 per barrel, so $135 per barrel is just to uniquely subsidize Russia.

We give them a share of our bonus, that's all.



cnleio said:


> How China help Russia ?
> 1. If BeiJing smart, make China become the HongKong of Russia, an Export Hub.
> 2. If BeiJing smart, directly barter trade with Russia, Goods exchange Techs (especially jet engine, nuclear-sub).
> 3. If BeiJing smart, now RMB dominate Russian exchange market.
> 4. If BeiJing smart, if possible buy/rent Russia lands.



Except no 2, all the rest will become very possible for sure.

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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> As* ChineseTiger1986 *said that China must buy oil at 135 USD/abrrel from Russia, so it seems like China is losing a lot


Russian will thanks Chinese, coz those money helped them. In crisis only China support money to them, 135 USD/abrrel from Russia, not a big deal coz it's original oil price before Ukraine Crisis, today China didn't lack that money, but im 100% sure Russian will remember the good from China.

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## SOHEIL

We are completely alone...


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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> As* ChineseTiger1986 *said that China must buy oil at 135 USD/abrrel from Russia, so it seems like China is losing a lot



Russia's share in China's total import is less than 10%.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> wrong, oil price was cheaper. it crashed to $40 a barrel in 2009.
> yes, you will profit from the crisis. I hope you show some mercy to the russians.



Now it was different from the 2008-2009 situation, Russia will not only face the situation with the oil price falls below $40 per barrel, but also to face the multiple western sanctions.

So the overall situation is much worse, but I am also pretty sure that Russia will still manage to survive.

Also, China will help them to recover fast.



SOHEIL said:


> We are completely alone...



Just to join our new silk road project, then you will not be left alone.

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## NiceGuy

somsak said:


> No Dude. We all will have native American fate. We will be native Asian after Nuclear Blast. Historian will write that we all died because Nuclear blasts and the decease afterward, which in fact not true. Then the conquerer will hunt us like animals.
> 
> I have been playing Sid Mier 's Colonization since childhood. I understand too well. If all major native civilizations destroyed, then the whole continents are free for all. Small native nations cannot fight us, the colonists.
> 
> You better read Native American fate. They used to have same apperance like you, and me. But now they are more handsome&beutiful because their ancestors were violated by colonists.


Nuke war seem hardly happen, coz the rich dont wanna die now. 

No one can hunt us if Thailand-Myanmar join wt VN-Laos-Cam to create a greater sub-Mekong nations


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> Nuke war seem hardly happen, coz the rich dont wanna die now.
> 
> No one can hunt us if Thailand-Myanmar join wt VN-Laos-Cam to create a greater sub-Mekong nations



The physical nuclear war is now less likely to happen, but the US will now use the economic nukes.

Just look what they have done to Russia recently.

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## Viet

wanglaokan said:


> We will help Russia for sure. If Vietnam is going down,we will help you as well cause we are communist brothers.


you have humour. NO, we will not go down.

but anyway, pls feel free and give long term loan $100 billion to vietnam. interest free. we need money to build our infrastructure. as price/benefit for chinese people, we will begin to like you.


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## SOHEIL

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Just to join our new silk road project, then you will not be left alone.



No thanks!


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## 帅的一匹

Viet said:


> you have humour. NO, we will not go down.
> 
> but anyway, pls feel free and give long term loan $100 billion to vietnam. interest free. we need money to build our infrastructure. as price/benefit for chinese people, we will begin to like you.


We give you billions to fight against USA, i don't see any signal that you like CHina.



SOHEIL said:


> No thanks!


Why get so isoated？ I think we are friend?


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## Chinese-Dragon

SOHEIL said:


> No thanks!



Alright then, lol.

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## Viet

somsak said:


> No Dude. We all will have native American fate. We will be native Asian after Nuclear Blast. Historian will write that we all died because Nuclear blasts and the decease afterward, which in fact not true. Then the conquerer will hunt us like animals.
> 
> I have been playing Sid Mier 's Colonization since childhood. I understand too well. If all major native civilizations destroyed, then the whole continents are free for all. Small native nations cannot fight us, the colonists.
> 
> You better read Native American fate. They used to have same apperance like you, and me. But now they are more handsome&beutiful because their ancestors were violated by colonists.


you sound too pessimistic. but hey perhaps we will leave mother earth and colonise the space in the future


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

SOHEIL said:


> No thanks!



Your leader will think otherwise.

To make the economic integration with us is like to provide you the nuclear umbrella against the economic nukes from the US.

Otherwise, you too will easily get economically nuked by the US.

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## Viet

SOHEIL said:


> No thanks!


LOL how about vietnam?


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## cnleio

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except no 2, all the rest will become very possible for sure.



LOL... it's not new for Sino-Russia barter trade, we had done it since 1990 USSR collaping. Even 1990s early Su-27sk fighters deal from Russia exchanged with Chinese goods. China also bought some USSR weapon techs.

If Russian really lack enough $, they willing to sell many to Chinese with directly barter or USD trade. 


> 2. If BeiJing smart, directly barter trade with Russia, Goods exchange Techs (especially jet engine, nuclear-sub).


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## Viet

wanglaokan said:


> We give you billions to fight against USA, i don't see any signal that you like CHina.


pls don´t talk of the past.


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## SOHEIL

Guys...

You don't want a partner! 

You want someone to loot him up ...


----------



## 帅的一匹

Viet said:


> pls don´t talk of the past.


You can't talk future while you just choose to evade the past.


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## SOHEIL

Viet said:


> LOL how about vietnam?



What do you have to offer?

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## ChineseTiger1986

cnleio said:


> LOL... it's not new for Sino-Russia barter trade, we had done it since 1990 USSR collaping. Even 1990s early Su-27sk fighters deal from Russia exchanged with Chinese goods. China also bought some USSR weapon techs.



The 117S is not our cup of tea, now we have the WS-15.

As for the boomer, no matter China is more advanced or less advanced than Russia in this domain, they will not give it to us, because the critical information could get leaked.

The one to India is not their newest SSN.

And the type of SSN that could get China's attention right now can only be the Yasen class, but it is definitely impossible.

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Now it was different from the 2008-2009 situation, Russia will not only face the situation with the oil price falls below $40 per barrel, but also to face the multiple western sanctions.
> 
> So the overall situation is much worse, but I am also pretty sure that Russia will still manage to survive.
> 
> Also, China will help them to recover fast.
> 
> .


As I said, China economy is going down that let to weaker oil deman. U cant even help urself, so let forget abt help to Russia.


> *Oil Futures Weighed by Demand Worries*
> DAN STRUMPF
> CONNECT
> Updated May 13, 2013 3:36 p.m. ET
> NEW YORK--Oil futures settled lower for the third straight session, weighed by concerns over weakening demand in China and robust global production.
> 
> Futures headed lower after data released Monday showed Chinese industrial output in April came in at 9.3% above last year's level--an improvement over a tepid March reading but under the 9.5% forecast by analysts surveyed by The Wall Street Journal.
> 
> The report was the latest underscoring slowing economic growth in China, which in turn has left the oil market worried demand for crude-oil is slowing there, too. China is the world's fastest-growing large economy and the boom has fueled a rise in oil prices over the last several years.
> 
> Oil Futures Weighed by Demand Worries, OPEC Output - WSJ


----------



## TaiShang

*Russia overestimated EU’s independence from US – Lavrov to French media*
Published time: December 16, 2014 17:03, RT






Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.(Reuters / Maxim Zmeyev)

Moscow previously overestimated the independence of the EU from the US, Russian FM Sergey Lavrov told French media. He cited Washington’s recognition that it had forced Brussels to impose sanctions on Russia over the Ukrainian crisis.

_*France 24:* Hello, and welcome to Moscow, welcome to Exclusive. Our guest today is the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov. Mr. Lavrov, thank you for being on the show._
...

_*F24:* I want to get to the issue of sanctions, Western sanctions that were slapped on Russia. They seem to have an effect: the Russian economy is suffering, the ruble has tumbled to new record lows, there was an emergency meeting last night to raise the interest rates to 17 percent, the oil price is tumbling. It seems Russia is feeling the bite of the sanctions._

*SL:* Well, of course it hurts, *we don’t take any pleasure from sanctions, but it’s not our problem, it’s the problem of the European Union and the United States and other countries.*

_*F24*: But it’s a problem for your population._

*SL:* The population will express itself when elections come. I’m sure the population would know what to do to express what the Russian people feel. I don’t believe it helps Europe.* As Joe Biden publicly said, it was the United States which ordered Europe to join sanctions against Russia, and frankly, it’s really a pity that we for some previous years overestimated the independence of the European Union and even big European countries. So, it’s geopolitics.* Some people believe that sanctions are a sign of weakness or a sign of irritation, which is not the best quality of a politician, but I can assure you that Russia will not only survive, but will come out stronger out of this. We have been in much worse situations in our history, and every time we were getting out of these fixes much stronger. This will happen this time.

_*F24:* So you’re not afraid that we could see an economic meltdown in Russia?_

*SL:* Never. *Economic meltdown could happen to a small country. It can happen even to a big country like Ukraine, and it’s basically almost there. Russia is doing whatever we can to help resolve the crisis in Ukraine – not to please the West, not to ask for sanctions relief, but because we are seriously concerned. *Contrary to what the Europeans feel, we are seriously concerned about the future of Ukraine and Ukrainian economy. Actually, speaking of sanctions and, you know, that this is a sign of irritation, not an instrument of serious policies.

The latest portion of sanctions which was voted in the European Union last September was introduced the next day after the Minsk protocol was signed. This is a very interesting logic, you know, to stimulate the political process. So the next morning after the huge achievement was reached, which was praised by everyone, the gentleman, what was his name, Van Rompuy, declared that there was a new portion of sanctions being introduced in Russia. If this is the European choice, if this is what Europe has as a reaction to something positive, then I once again can only say that we hugely overestimated European independence in foreign policy.

_*F24:* Are sanctions, as some people are thinking, a way of trying to create regime change in Russia?_

*SL*: I have very serious reasons to believe that this is the case.

_*F24:* Really?_

*SL:* Yes. Some politicians don’t even hide it.

_*F24:* What about the new bill that passed unanimously in Congress in the US, the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which would give lethal weapons for the first time to Ukraine, and sanction two of Russia’s foremost companies…?_

*SL*: First, it has to be signed.

_*F24*: You think.._

*SL*: Second, second, if it is signed..

_*F24*: If Obama promulgates it, what…what would.._

*SL:* Once again. First, it has to be signed. Second, if it is signed and enters into force it has to be applied in practice. And we’ll see whether this would be the case, whether this would be signed, and if it is signed, if Obama would be in fact putting some of the provisions into practice, and if he does, then we will assess the situation.* But, you know, Congress is a very special group of people, more than 80 percent of them never left the United States, they live in their own world,* so I’m not amazed about this Russophobia which is being demonstrated by the Congress at the moment.

_*F24:* If Obama endorses this, would this be for you a kind of a declaration of war against Russia?_

*SL:* If he does, we’ll see. We want to see what Obama does and what will happen, because the bill is not automatic. It provides for some specific things, I believe, to be done automatically, but it also provides for something to be left to the president’s discretion. The things which are automatic, I believe, they relate to the Russian Rosoboronexport company and its foreign partners, but among foreign partners of Rosoboronexport are many Ukrainian military-industrial enterprises, and basically the bill provides for the Americans to find some alternative markets to the Ukrainian arms industry. But I talked to my American colleagues, and they admit that except Russia hardly any other country actually needs Ukrainian military products. So we’ll see how it works.

_*F24:* You’ve said many times that you feel that NATO as an organization is an enemy for Russia, that it has tried to expand, that it has really nefarious…_

*SL:* I never said this.

_*F24:* No?_

*SL:* No, never.

_*F24*: But it’s the impression we get in the West._

*SL*: No, no, no. Well, when you have an impression you should ask a question, and then read the documents. The document which is relevant in this case is the military doctrine of the Russian Federation. It never mentions that NATO is an enemy.* What it says is that the security risks for Russia, among other things, are NATO expansion to the East and the movement of military infrastructure of NATO closer to the Russian borders – not NATO itself, but its militarized movement *to the East is considered by the Russian military doctrine as a security risk and threat for Russia.

_*F24:* Would you consider cutting off ties with NATO if this continues?_

*SL:* We don’t need to do this because NATO did it for us. They have cut practically all ties between the Alliance and Russia, they just kept on hold basically the NATO-Russia Ambassadorial Council, but they severed all practical cooperative mechanisms, including on Afghanistan, including on counter-terrorism, some other specific things – they have frozen everything. But having done so in the context of NATO-Russia projects, they quietly come to us and say, “Well, let’s continue training pilots for the Afghan Air Force, but doing this outside NATO-Russia. In other words, the substance they want to continue, but for the public consumption, they want to say that they are so firm with Russia that they severed all the ties. Childish, but what to do? Sometimes big boys play games.

_*F24:* Speaking of games, there was a contract signed a few years ago with France for Russia to have the Mistral helicopter carriers, Is it suspended?_

*SL*: I have to interrupt you. I don’t make any comments on this issue. This is the matter a) of a signed legal contract, and b) of the dignity of the French nation.

_*F24:* You expect France to fulfill this contract?_

*SL:* I don’t have any more comments.

*...*

*F24*: _OK. Sergey Lavrov, thank you very much for answering all our questions._

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## Chinese-Dragon

SOHEIL said:


> Guys...
> 
> You don't want a partner!
> 
> You want someone to loot him up ...



We don't force people to take business deals with us, if they can find a better deal elsewhere, that's where they will go.

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## ChineseTiger1986

SOHEIL said:


> Guys...
> 
> You don't want a partner!
> 
> You want someone to loot him up ...



lol, we don't even plan to loot on Russia, so how you think that we wanna loot on you?

We don't want to see you getting looted by the US eventually.

Our new silk road project is a win-win game for all the participants, and what make you think this is attempting to loot on you?

Since you shouldn't see China as another USA, and our ancestors had a good relationship in the past, so there is no reason for you to doubt about us.

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## Viet

SOHEIL said:


> What do you have to offer?


well, we can buy your crude oil if your price is ok. vietnam plans to have eight refineries with a total design capacity of 60 million tons of oil products a year. we will need to import a lot of oil. for instance, we have signed oil contract with kuwaii. we already have many contracts with russia.

Vietnam breaks ground on 3rd oil refinery project, to cost 3.2bn


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## NiceGuy

SOHEIL said:


> We are completely alone...


Fire some useless officials or put them in jail, employ some smart and young men to work for the Govt. Offer more benefit to get more investment from friendly countries.

Thats what Vn and China r doing now.

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## cnleio

Just let me tell the truth, what West really want in this Economy War to against Russia ?
When Mr Putin step down from Russian government, the Economy War / Oil War will END !

Then Russian will lose Mr Putin and Ukraine, Ukraine will join NATO and send back Crimea, Russia become a meaningless small nation will quit Caucasus regions. Russian face another Economy War from West like last USSR collapsing !

The KEY is West holding USD and Oil pricing power, not Russian or Mr Putin.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Chinese-Dragon said:


> We don't force people to take business deals with us, if they can find a better deal elsewhere, that's where they will go.



If they don't wanna join, then their regional rival surely will.



cnleio said:


> Just let me tell the truth, what West want in this Economy War to against Russia ?
> When Mr Putin step down from Russian government, the Economy War / Oil War will END !
> 
> Then Russian will lose Mr Putin and Ukraine, Ukraine will join NATO. Now Russian face another Economy War from West like last USSR collapsing !
> 
> View attachment 176685



If Putin steps down, then it gonna be the end for Russia.

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## vostok

SOHEIL said:


> @vostok
> 
> What is your idea!?


For Russia, enough that China and other free nations did not join the Western sanctions. Solving the problem of Russia - within her own. They need to take control of the Central Bank, which is a stronghold of the western fifth column, they need to change the constitution, to restore the country's official ideology, to expand the powers of the president up to dictatorial.

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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> For Russia, enough that China and other free nations did not join the Western sanctions. Solving the problem of Russia - within her own. They need to take control of the Central Bank, which is a stronghold of the western fifth column, they need to change the constitution, to restore the country's official ideology, to expand the powers of the president up to dictatorial.



Russia is surely strong enough to survive.

But the full economic integration with China will help you to recover faster.

BTW, i think the new Eurasian silk road is already on the talk.

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## Viet

vostok said:


> For Russia, enough that China and other free nations did not join the Western sanctions. Solving the problem of Russia - within her own. They need to take control of the Central Bank, which is a stronghold of the western fifth column, they need to change the *constitution*, to restore the country's official ideology, *to expand the powers of the president up to dictatorial*.


my friend, the only way out is NOT to change the constitution, NOR expand the power to a dictatorship.
NO, you must end the support to the separistism movement in eastern ukraine.


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## vostok

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia is surely strong enough to survive.
> 
> But the full economic integration with China will help you to recover faster.
> 
> BTW, i think the new Eurasian silk road is already on the talk.


Deep cooperation, not integration. We had integration in Western economics after 1991 and you see how it ends for us.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> my friend, the only way out is NOT to change the constitution, NOR expand the power to a dictatorship.
> NO, you must end the support to the separistism movement in eastern ukraine.



Nope, Ukraine is Russia's core national interests.

And it was the West who created this mess to provoke Russia.



vostok said:


> Deep cooperation, not integration. We had integration in Western economics after 1991 and you see how it ends for us.



I mean a FTA agreement like China has with the Asia-Pacific nations.

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## vostok

Viet said:


> my friend, the only way out is NOT to change the constitution, NOR expand the power to a dictatorship.
> NO, you must end the support to the separistism movement in eastern ukraine.


Ukraine has nothing to do with it. West in any case would attack Russia, as "Carthage must be destroyed." On the contrary, Russia should restore full economic sovereignty and include Novorossia as Novorossiyan Federal District.
You can not go in the wake of the West. Or fight against them - or be destroyed. Russia has no other choice.

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## cnleio

Viet said:


> my friend, the only way out is NOT to change the constitution, NOR expand the power to a dictatorship.
> NO, you must end the support to the separistism movement in eastern ukraine.


LOL ... that's a deal, but today Russia end support to eastern ukraine, tomorrow Ukraine join NATO ... then big problem coming. Don't forget Crimea !

The only good idea, is West Ukraine vs East Ukraine or a pro-Russian president in Kiev city of Ukraine.

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## somsak

@vostok 
I do not see any future for Russia against the west in 30-50 years future. Your country is getting smaller and smaller on both gdp, no. population, and tech.ology.
Im no offense dude. I just say whay i think. What do you say?
Is it not the case?


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## cnleio

Ukraine Civil War == 1950s Korea War == 1960s Vietnam War, BOSS from both sides behind it.


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## ChineseTiger1986

cnleio said:


> LOL ... that's a deal, but today Russia end support to eastern ukraine, tomorrow Ukraine join NATO ... then big problem coming. Don't forget Crimea !
> 
> The only good idea, is West Ukraine vs East Ukraine or a pro-Russian president in Kiev city of Ukraine.



The only way is to let western Ukraine vs eastern Ukraine last forever.

If Russia has annexed the eastern Ukraine, then the western Ukraine will surely join NATO, so NATO will still push forward for several hundred kilometers, which is still not good for Russia.

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## Chinese-Dragon

somsak said:


> @vostok
> I do not see any future for Russia against the west in 30-50 years future. Your country is getting smaller and smaller on both gdp, no. population, and tech.ology.
> Im no offense dude. I just say whay i think. What do you say?
> Is it not the case?



Russia will always be one of the most powerful countries on Earth.

They can hold off the West easily, and have proven it in Crimea.

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## ChineseTiger1986

somsak said:


> @vostok
> I do not see any future for Russia against the west in 30-50 years future. Your country is getting smaller and smaller on both gdp, no. population, and tech.ology.
> Im no offense dude. I just say whay i think. What do you say?
> Is it not the case?



With nukes and natural resources, Russia can surely survive on its own.

But the West is now planning to keep them poor and backward forever.



cnleio said:


> Ukraine Civil War == 1950s Korea War == 1960s Vietnam War, BOSS from both sides behind it.



Except Russia now got economically ganged up by the West.

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## cnleio

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except Russia now got economically ganged up by the West.


LOL ... in 1950s and 1960s, USSR was a superpower and China wasn't a member of U.N. But in that time Chinese we can living in poor to support a proxy war, now problem is whether today Russian willing to lower current living conditons to support East Ukraine ? If Russian can't, i see Mr Putin will kick out from the Kremlin.

It called WILL OF THE STATE !

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## somsak

West will use low intensity war to create civil war to topple head of government and turn them a western vassel state. Nuke can not prevent such scenario.


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## ChineseTiger1986

cnleio said:


> LOL ... in 1950s and 1960s, USSR was a superpower and China wasn't a member of U.N. But in that time Chinese we can living in poor to support a proxy war, now problem is whether today Russian willing to lower current living conditons to support East Ukraine ? If Russian can't, i see Mr Putin will kick out from the Kremlin.
> 
> It called WILL OF THE STATE !



Putin cannot let the current situation to last more than 3 years, otherwise it is going to be dangerous for his regime.

The current free fall must be controlled. If it continues, then many people will eventually outburst their dissatisfaction against the government.


----------



## Viet

cnleio said:


> LOL ... that's a deal, but today Russia end support to eastern ukraine, tomorrow Ukraine join NATO ... then big problem coming. Don't forget Crimea !
> 
> The only good idea, is West Ukraine vs East Ukraine or a pro-Russian president in Kiev city of Ukraine.


the west can accept russian annexation of the crimea, but NEVER the eastern ukraine.

russia needs to be realistic. by the way, china should not support separatism, otherwise your provinces xinjang and tibet can become increasingly a target for such separatism movements.


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## NiceGuy

vostok said:


> Deep cooperation, not integration. We had integration in Western economics after 1991 and you see how it ends for us.


Russia can help VN to unify sub-Mekong region like what Soviet help VN from 1979-1988. The united sub-Mekong region can buy more oil , more weapons and give more help back to Russia.

Just persuade China that the strong united sub-Mekong wont be their trouble, so they wont ruin our plan like in 1979 .
VN is always the best friend of Russia


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> With nukes and natural resources, Russia can surely survive on its own.
> 
> But the West is now planning to keep them poor and backward forever.
> Except Russia now got economically ganged up by the West.


sure, russia will survive. but the dream of returning to a superpower is burst.

before any chinese begin to scold, I don´t want to see it. a strong russia is better for vietnam than a weak. russia is a traditional friend and ally of vietnam, a counterbalance to china. if russia weakens, you will begin to bully more vietnam.


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## Götterdämmerung

China knows very well that after Russia, she will be the next target.

But!

Russia needs to do her homework as well. Putin needs first to fire the central bank director Nabiullina and replace all the members of the board. She is a member of the fifth column. The central bank should be completely nationalised and be lead by S. Glazyev. 

Putin, although a socialist by heart, still has a lot of (too much in my opinion) admiration of American style free capitalism. That is also part of the problem.

What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!

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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> sure, russia will survive. but the dream of returning to a superpower is burst.
> 
> before any chinese begin to scold, I don´t want to see it. a strong russia is better for vietnam than a weak. russia is a traditional friend and ally of vietnam, a counterbalance to china.



To counterbalance us with Russia is better than to counterbalance us with the US.

Anyway, you can't just turn into a US puppet, since they will first set up a new color revolution to topple your undemocratic government first.

There will be a price to pay if you wanna become their puppet.

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## Viet

Chinese-Dragon said:


> *Russia will always be one of the most powerful countries on Earth.*
> 
> They can hold off the West easily, and have proven it in Crimea.


military speaking: yes
economics: no


----------



## tranquilium

First of all, let's take a calming breath. Breath in and out, in and out. The sky is not falling.

Let's examine a few things, shall we? It is true that the recent oil plunge will negatively impact Russia's economy, but in all honesty, it is nowhere near as bad as the oil plunge in late 1980s. While Russia's industrial infrastructure is not as good as USSR, it is also not running a military budget equal to 20% of its national GDP, nor is Russia today constantly deploying a million men force at its border. More important, Russia today actually has major trade partners that are willing to help it. In comparison, the situation at late 1980 was much more grim. Historians agrees that even with all these conditions, USSR only really dissolved because critical mistakes made by Soviet leaders at the time.

Also, remember something else. At the end of the day, a country like Russia is really only in trouble IF the basic living necessity of the people cannot be satisfied, such as food shortage, etc. So far we have not received any indication of this kind of problem. So, in my opinion, Russia will be fine.

To be honest, I am more worried about Venezuela than Russia. Venezuela is pretty much in an all around worse position than Russia, from political leadership, society stability to stuff like industrial infrastructure, food supply, as well as geographical location in relation to friendly trade partners.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Götterdämmerung said:


> China knows very well that after Russia, she will be the next target.
> 
> But!
> 
> Russia needs to do her homework as well. Putin needs first to fire the central bank director Nabiullina and replace all the members of the board. She is a member of the fifth column. The central bank should be completely nationalised and be lead by S. Glazyev.
> 
> Putin, although a socialist by heart, still has a lot of (too much in my opinion) admiration of American style free capitalism. That is also part of the problem.
> 
> What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!



The real goal of NATO's eastward expansion is not at Russia, but directly at China. We know that very clearly.

After toppling Putin's Russia, NATO will plan to surround us from the western side by Kazakhstan, the eastern side by Japan/South Korea, the northern side by the Outer Mongolia, and the southern side by the ASEAN.



Götterdämmerung said:


> China knows very well that after Russia, she will be the next target.
> 
> But!
> 
> Russia needs to do her homework as well. Putin needs first to fire the central bank director Nabiullina and replace all the members of the board. She is a member of the fifth column. The central bank should be completely nationalised and be lead by S. Glazyev.
> 
> Putin, although a socialist by heart, still has a lot of (too much in my opinion) admiration of American style free capitalism. That is also part of the problem.
> 
> What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!



Indeed, those pro-west economists and experts need to be fired off.

We and Russia both need to do our homework properly.



Götterdämmerung said:


> What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!



Exactly, I've told them many times that if both China and Russia fall, then the US will indeed treat them like Gaddafi.

Yet they don't wanna believe my words, since they prefer to dance with the wolves.

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## vostok

somsak said:


> @vostok
> I do not see any future for Russia against the west in 30-50 years future. Your country is getting smaller and smaller on both gdp, no. population, and tech.ology.
> Im no offense dude. I just say whay i think. What do you say?
> Is it not the case?


Do not underestimate Russia. Many great empires deceived our apparent weakness. I think in the near future we will see metamorphosis of weak liberal Russia into a strong kind of imperial Russia.
By the way - the population is growing since 2012 and the territory increased since 2014.

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## TaiShang

Götterdämmerung said:


> What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!



They are somehow jumping up high in the expectation that a fallen Russia will eventually lead to a less friendly environment for China, which, in turn, will weaken it and, from this, Vietnam will emerge victorious like never before. In a sense, they do not hate Russia, but China.



tranquilium said:


> First of all, let's take a calming breath. Breath in and out, in and out. The sky is not falling.
> 
> Let's examine a few things, shall we? It is true that the recent oil plunge will negatively impact Russia's economy, but in all honesty, it is nowhere near as bad as the oil plunge in late 1980s. While Russia's industrial infrastructure is not as good as USSR, it is also not running a military budget equal to 20% of its national GDP, nor is Russia today constantly deploying a million men force at its border. More important, Russia today actually has major trade partners that are willing to help it. In comparison, the situation at late 1980 was much more grim. Historians agrees that even with all these conditions, USSR only really dissolved because critical mistakes made by Soviet leaders at the time.
> 
> Also, remember something else. At the end of the day, a country like Russia is really only in trouble IF the basic living necessity of the people cannot be satisfied, such as food shortage, etc. So far we have not received any indication of this kind of problem. So, in my opinion, Russia will be fine.
> 
> To be honest, I am more worried about Venezuela than Russia. Venezuela is pretty much in an all around worse position than Russia, from political leadership, society stability to stuff like industrial infrastructure, food supply, as well as geographical location in relation to friendly trade partners.



I yesterday talked to a classmate from Russia's east. There is a certain increase in food stuff but not dramatic. Overall, prices are stable, she says. There is no mass lay offs or any sort of economic turmoil. Life is going on. Majority of Russians are strongly behind the leadership.

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## cnleio

Viet said:


> the west can accept russian annexation of the crimea, but NEVER the eastern ukraine.
> 
> russia needs to be realistic. by the way, china should not support separatism, otherwise your provinces xinjang and tibet can become increasingly a target for such separatism movements.


A whole Ukraine nation including Crimea ... even West allow, the Ukraine will say NO, the conflict will continue.


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## NiceGuy

Götterdämmerung said:


> What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!


Russia dont wanna integrate wt China coz he got lots of experience from 'integrating' wt the West, so we just remind them that Russia could ally wt VN again like in Soviet time

Do our plan of unifying sub-Mekong region still scare ur lovely China ??


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> Russia dont wanna integrate wt China coz he got lots of experience from 'integrating' wt the West, so we just remind them that Russia could ally wt VN again like in Soviet time
> 
> Do our plan of unifying sub-Mekong region still scare ur lovely China ??



The BRICS bank is clearly the first step toward the integration.


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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> They are somehow jumping up high in the expectation that a fallen Russia will eventually lead to a less friendly environment for China, which, in turn, will weaken it and, from this, Vietnam will emerge victorious like never before. In a sense, they do not hate Russia, but China.
> .


Thats the trust. Fallen Soviet didnt kill us, so we dont have big problem wt fallen Russia, but fallen Russia will lead to fallen China, then thats a great chance for us to take back our lost isls in SCS(east sea)


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## somsak

vostok said:


> Do not underestimate Russia. Many great empires deceived our apparent weakness. I think in the near future we will see resurrection of weak liberal Russia into a strong kind of imperial Russia.
> By the way - the population is growing since 2012 and the territory increased since 2014.


I am saying smaller w.r.t the west. friend.
Can you give me the fundamental strength that russia will have, to reverse the trend?


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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The BRICS bank is clearly the first step for the integration.


BRICS bank seem dont help much to stop the fall of Rouble.


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> BRICS bank seem dont help much to stop the fall of Rouble.



Because the bank won't be officially activated until 2016.

But considering the current situation, we could set as an emergence case to activate it a year earlier than the original schedule.

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## Ruisheng

wanglaokan said:


> 薄熙来这种人要坚决铲除，就是个伪左。都他妈2014年了还唱红歌呢！垃圾！


额，出过国没？


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> Thats the trust. Fallen Soviet didnt kill us, so we dont have big problem wt fallen Russia, but fallen Russia will lead to fallen China, then thats a great chance for us to take back our lost isls in SCS(east sea)



Forget about the fallen China.

Before of that, the US will first make a southern branch of NATO (ASEAN) by taking you out first, since they won't allow a communist nation being part of the southern NATO.

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> To counterbalance us with Russia is better than to counterbalance us with the US.
> 
> Anyway, you can't just turn into a US puppet, since they will first set up a new color revolution to topple your undemocratic government first.
> 
> There will be a price to pay if you wanna become their puppet.


why should the US want another government in vietnam?
americans used to cooperate with anyone that fits their national interests, from democracy to dictatorship.

I know china does not want vietnam to cozy up to america.



cnleio said:


> A whole Ukraine nation including Crimea ... even West allow, the Ukraine will say NO, the conflict will continue.


crimea is a lost case for ukraine.
the whole mess begins with the support of russia to eastern ukraine separatists. putin overplays his cards.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> why should the US want another government in vietnam?
> americans used to cooperate with anyone that fits their national interests, from democracy to dictatorship.
> 
> I know china does not want vietnam to cozy up to america.



Never underestimate their brutality.

Even Gaddafi decided to swear his allegiance, then why they will go after him?

Gaddafi has pissed China off since 2006 in order to appease the West, but they still killed him like a dog.

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## vostok

somsak said:


> I am saying smaller w.r.t the west. friend.
> Can you give me the fundamental strength that russia will have, to reverse the trend?


West itself does not become stronger. The share of the west in the global economy falls every year. In a military sense, only the United States pose a threat to Russia. Russian army could win Europe in a couple of months, as their armies - it's somewhere between anti-terrorist units and colonial corpus.
In the near future leadership of Russia will have to make a difficult decision - to take control of the economy and finances, President will be forced to take some sort of dictatorial powers.
Russia's economy is heavily underestimated. The potential of the Russian economy under the correct leadership is not inferior to the United States.

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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> BRICS bank seem dont help much to stop the fall of Rouble.



It is a development bank. Besides, Russia does not need handouts or emergency funds. It just needs more business with non-Western countries.

Also, BRICS Development Bank is still a pretty new organization.

*Those craving ruble collapse aren’t immune from aftershocks*
Published time: December 17, 2014 01:25, Russia Today






RIA Novosti / Vladimir Sergeev


Russia is enduring a 'textbook' emerging market crisis. Only the economically illiterate or the stupid would either gloat or find fantastical reasons for it. Unfortunately, we are learning that many media figures and analysts fit both categories.

First a hands up. One person imagined a panic in Sochi yesterday and he wasn’t Russian. It was me. The experience was also a useful example of how counterproductive Twitter can be. Reading a hyperactive feed, I supposed that fear was stalking the streets as the ruble tumbled relentlessly.

There’s one ATM machine – to my knowledge – that disperses Euros and Dollars in downtown Sochi not far from the famous beach party zone. Following the Twitter information overload, I anticipated either a lengthy queue or that the machine would be out of order. Cash dispensers have a nasty habit of refusing to work when you need them most. However, this one was operative.

Outside, there was no line, just a young couple eating ice creams (it was 17 degrees Celsius) and a couple of empty parked cars. Inside the branch, there were 4 staff and 2 customers. No panic, not even a mild tremble.

Nevertheless, at a currency exchange closer to the sea, the man running the show told me he was out of Euros and Dollars. _“One guy came down with a huge amount of money this morning and cleaned me out.”_ He offered me some British Sterling instead, I demurred_: “He didn’t want pounds either. Why does nobody ever want pounds?”_

*The reason for the relative calm is that Russians don't feel a tangible crisis, not yet anyway. Despite months of tumult, prices haven’t risen substantially and the shops are fully stocked. Of course, this situation could change if the decline accelerates. Russians are also, more than other Europeans, conditioned to economic shocks. There have been at least 3 panics in the past 25 years, the most recent in 2008.*

Scratch away the misinformed cant, wishful thinking and scaremongering and it’s clear that Russia is in the midst of an emerging market crisis. Russia is not a mature economy. Less than a quarter century since the demise of communism, it's a late comer to the capitalist scene. Business practices are at least a generation behind the likes of Germany and experienced economists are thin on the ground.

Additionally, many 'new' Russians don't have the same attitude to responsible saving that their parents did, another side-effect of decades of frequent instability.

*Since 1999, under President’s Putin and Medvedev, Russian living standards have mushroomed. During this period, Russians attained a level of affluence and prosperity unprecedented in the country’s chequered history. Citizens have become accustomed to a standard of living their grandparents could only have dreamed about. Of course, this feeling of wealth is now in peril and conditions are almost certain to precipitate.*

On Twitter, many were rejoicing in this fact. Some of them are the very same moralistic types who pretend they both care for and want to help Russian people. Their current schadenfreude exposes their true motives. Times of need generally expose false friends.

The Washington Post led the charge. This is the same Washington that serves as the capital of a country which 6 years ago imploded and took the rest of the world down with it.

*The Ruble is falling because the oil price is plummeting. Markets feel there is a miscorrelation between assets and liabilities. The energy price decline means less dollars to support the liabilities, so the Ruble is squeezed as principals try to secure greenbacks. Additionally, Russia’s pre-existing culture of capital flight exacerbates the slide. Linking these is really not rocket science.*

The Central Bank in Moscow feels forced to hike interest rates and spend foreign exchange reserves in an attempt to arrest the currency downturn. Neither policy has been successful so far. If nothing changes in this regard, the economy will hurtle into free-fall. This is the tragic reality. Ordinary Russians will suffer the most, the rich won’t be skipping dinners or other essentials. If you don’t believe me, check out Paul Krugman, the Nobel Laureate, who concurs.

The pain that, quite obviously, awaits decent hard-working people should be enough reason not to crow. However, the gloaters might be in for in a rather more personal shock down the line. *Anybody who believes this crisis will remain ensconced in a Moscow bubble is seriously deluded. In a globalised world, what initially appears like a local problem can quickly become a much wider contagion.*

Pre-crisis, Russia’s economy was somewhere around 4% of global GDP and whole sectors, particularly in Europe, are reliant on exports to it. Furthermore, the fiscal health of central Asian states is worryingly beholden to their giant neighbor. If Moscow is catching a cold, Yerevan and Astana are in danger of pneumonia.







RIA Novosti / Valery Melnikov


*Struggling nations like Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia depend on the Russian labor market as a pressure valve for their unemployed and remittances are vital. In the more prosperous part of Europe, some German auto manufacturers, Italian clothing designers and French retailers, to name just a few, are sustained by Russia. China won't be getting off scot free either.*

As economist Dr Constantin Gurdgiev of Trinity College, Dublin puts it, _"Russian imports of goods and services are likely to contract by between 12 and 15 percent in 2015, with much of this effect being driven by a decline in capital goods and consumer goods imported traditionally from Europe. In addition, financial exposures to Russia run high in Austria, Italy, France and the UK. While the European banks have seen some strengthening of their balance sheets in recent months, another adverse shock to their assets is not something they would like to contemplate.”_

_"If Russia opts for capital controls and/or imposes a holiday on repayment of larger debt tranches coming due in early 2015, the European financial system will receive another shock as much of Russian banks and corporate funding was underwritten in Europe,"_ Dr Gurdgiev warns.

Russia’s Central Bank may now be forced to introduce capital controls. This will, at least partially, prevent companies and households from a further Ruble sell-off. However, such a measure would also cause the economy to contract further.

With sanctions still enforced by western nations, who have a hold on global finance not proportional to their size, many other corrective avenues are unavailable to the Kremlin.

Russia’s economic malaise is not funny. Nor is it any reason to celebrate, even for the country’s biggest detractors. The phrase “be careful what you wish for” comes to mind. There is nothing cheerful about current events and very few, if any, countries will be immune from the effects.

Nor is Russia alone in feeling the brunt of the oil-price collapse. Venezuela is convulsed by disorder and suffers shortages of even basic goods. The Middle East is choc-a-bloc with countries that need high crude values to protect their economies. Further volatility in that region opens up a Pandora’s Box.

In simple economic terms, everyone around the world would benefit from Russia, and other oil-rich nations, stepping off the financial precipice as soon as possible. Even the gloaters who despise Russia's current government enough to wish ill-will on ordinary folk they auspiciously care about. These guys don't care for anything or anyone in Russia. They only care for their own narrow ends.

****

GOOD NEWS!






The Russian ruble* began to recover against the US dollar and euro* early Wednesday, going some way to compensate for a 20 percent drop on Monday.

The currency has started to bounce back, trading at 66.70 against the US dollar and 84 against the euro at 11:00am MSC Wednesday, data from the Moscow Exchange shows. After the Central Bank of Russia (CBR) reportedly intervened early Tuesday morning, the ruble jumped 4 percent against the USD, briefly trading at 62.77 per 1 USD.

*RT Business.*

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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Never underestimate their brutality.
> 
> Even Gaddafi decided to swear his allegiance, then why they will go after him?
> 
> Gaddafi has pissed China off since 2006 in order to appease the West, but they still killed him like a dog.


I know of US acrocities and rudness. they only go after their interests. also, I am aware of US brutality in vietnam. my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy.

but the people in vietnam also know, americans like many other foreigners as the french, japanese and british they come and go, but the chinese are ALWAYS there. we need protection.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> I am aware of US brutality in vietnam. my father once served in the southern vietnamese navy.
> 
> but the people in vietnam also know, americans like many other foreigners as the french, japanese and british they come and go, but the chinese are ALWAYS there. we need protection.



At least China won't kill someone for fun.

If someone like Gaddafi is trying to surrender to China, then China definitely won't kill him for fun.

Gaddafi has listened the advice from his son to pledge the allegiance to the West, yet the West still killed him like a dog.

So you wanna really dance with the wolves (the West) over the big man (China)?

Even the non-Chinese members have seen that you guys are not really smart compared to us.

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## yusheng

SOHEIL said:


> We are completely alone...


no, you are no alone, the monetary war, or oil, gas war is under way, calm and wait, soon everyone will see. in another word, ww3 has already begun....


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## ChineseTiger1986

yusheng said:


> no, you are no alone, the monetary war, or oil, gas war is under way, calm and wait, soon everyone will see. in another word, ww3 has already begun....



Let's see how the oil price will go in the next year.


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## Götterdämmerung

NiceGuy said:


> Russia dont wanna integrate wt China coz he got lots of experience from 'integrating' wt the West, so we just remind them that Russia could ally wt VN again like in Soviet time
> 
> Do our plan of unifying sub-Mekong region still scare ur lovely China ??



WTF? Reading your post causes brain damages.

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## Viet

Götterdämmerung said:


> China knows very well that after Russia, she will be the next target.
> 
> But!
> 
> Russia needs to do her homework as well. Putin needs first to fire the central bank director Nabiullina and replace all the members of the board. She is a member of the fifth column. The central bank should be completely nationalised and be lead by S. Glazyev.
> 
> Putin, although a socialist by heart, still has a lot of (too much in my opinion) admiration of American style free capitalism. That is also part of the problem.
> 
> What irritates me but I'm somehow not surprised anymore are the Viet chirping in with their petty minds. It's like the ship is sinking and the rats are just thinking how to steal a piece of cheese out of the galley. Pathetic!


no, we are leaving the sinking ship. I wonder how you come to such conclusion?


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## Götterdämmerung

Viet said:


> no, we are leaving the sinking ship. I wonder how you come to such conclusion.



You are moving to Mars with your little fishing boats? Good luck with that undertaking!

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## Viet

Götterdämmerung said:


> You are moving to Mars with your little fishing boats? Good luck with that undertaking!


vietnam is not the topic. germany is the forerunner of imposing sanctions on russia. forgotten?


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## cnleio

Viet said:


> crimea is a lost case for ukraine.
> the whole mess begins with the support of russia to eastern ukraine separatists. putin overplays his cards.


LOL ... it sounds like NanSha / Spratly islands in SCS also can become a lost case for Vietnam, much smaller than that Crimea ... LOL !

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## Götterdämmerung

Viet said:


> vietnam is not the topic. germany is the forerunner of imposing sanctions on russia. forgotten?



ORly? Why don't you tell that to yourself and your Viet compatriots?

I know, we are an occupied country and if you have followed the reaction in the comment section of the NATO-controlled media, you would have known that the majority is against the sanctions.

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## Edison Chen

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The natural resources indeed, but the military technology not much.



True, China has a relatively integrated industrial system, unlike other developing countries, China has great potential to utilize this advantage to develop advanced military tech. I am curious in which field has China been better than Russia? The navy?

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## cirr

Viet said:


> no, we are leaving the sinking ship. I wonder how you come to such conclusion?



Would you pls stop kissing your own ***？

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## Edison Chen

wanglaokan said:


> Firstly turn back the occupied 1 million SQM land of the far east to China, then we talk.
> 
> The only reason we shall help them is because of bully of USA, i don't like Russians at all.



Can't agree more. The northeast land the Russians took from China really worth a lot than the outter Mongolia. China lost the exit to the sea.


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## cnleio

2014.12.17 Russian r busy shopping before RUB devaluation

What Russian government need, it's _Currency Control & Stabilize price of living commodities_

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## Viet

cnleio said:


> LOL ... it sounds like NanSha / Spratly islands in SCS also can become a lost case for Vietnam, much smaller than that Crimea ... LOL !


NO, it is not. that is a long game. you play GO, I play CHESS. forgotten?



Götterdämmerung said:


> ORly? Why don't you tell that to yourself and your Viet compatriots?
> 
> I know, we are an occupied country and if you have followed the reaction in the comment section of the NATO-controlled media, you would have known that the majority is against the sanctions.


you are follower of the Linke, I guess. NO, germany is a sovereign nation since years. Thanks to Helmut Kohl.
@MarkusS this guy is rediculous.


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## Götterdämmerung

Viet said:


> you are follower of the Linke, I guess. NO, germany is a sovereign nation since years. Thanks to Helmut Kohl.
> @MarkusS this guy is rediculous.



ORly? So, Schäuble talked nonsense?





Come back again, if you know more about Germany.

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## 远古盘古

中国要帮 如果俄罗斯完了 美国会来打中国 中国完蛋了


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## Viet

Götterdämmerung said:


> ORly? So, Schäuble talked nonsense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come back again, if you know more about Germany.


undisputed fact: Germany signed the peace treaty (4+2 Vertrag) with the victors of the WWII: America, Russia, England and France in 1990. a year later in 1991, she becomes a full sovereign nation.

It is unfair to cite Schäuble´s to feed some people´s propaganda. he did not mean so. the video clip is edited.

off-topic


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## Götterdämmerung

Viet said:


> undisputed fact: Germany signed the peace treaty (4+2 Vertrag) with the victors of the WWII: America, Russia, England and France in 1990. a year later in 1991, she becomes a full sovereign nation.
> 
> It is unfair to cite Schäuble´s to feed some people´s propaganda. he did not mean so. the video clip is edited.
> 
> off-topic



What did Schäuble mean when he said that since 1945 Germany hasn't been a sovereign country? Care to explain in simple German or English? He said that in 2013, 12 years after the 2+4 Treaty.

Even Merkel had problems explaining, or as a matter of fact, trying to manoeuvre around the fact that we are not a fully (WTF is that, either you are or you are not) sovereign country.






It's OT because you are losing the argument, as usual.

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## Viet

Götterdämmerung said:


> What did Schäuble mean when he said that since 1945 Germany hasn't been a sovereign country? Care to explain in simple German or English? He said that in 2013, 12 years after the 2+4 Treaty.
> 
> Even Merkel had problems explaining, or as a matter of fact, trying to manoeuvre around the fact that we are not a fully (WTF is that, either you are or you are not) sovereign country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's OT because you are losing the argument, as usual.


you don´t get the whole picture.

germany is a member of european union. and as such, she has given some of her national rights to european super instances, such as in currency question (european central bank) or politics (european parliament) or other fields (competition, etc...) to european goverment (the commission). she does it voluntary. that does not change the fact she is a sovereign country like other countries in europe.

you give something away, but you get something back.

off-topic


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## Götterdämmerung

Viet said:


> you don´t get the whole picture.
> 
> germany is a member of european union. and as such, she has given some of her national rights to european super instances, such as in currency question (european central bank) or politics (european parliament) or other fields (competition, etc...) to european goverment (the commission). she does it voluntary. that does not change the fact she is a sovereign country like other countries in europe.
> 
> you give something away, but you get something back.
> 
> off-topic



LOL, a Viet has the whole picture unlike we Germans. You are just as crazy as the other Viets here. 

Firstly, Schäuble did say that since 1945 Germany never had full sovereignty. As far as I know, there was not EU back in 1945, not even the EEC.

Secondly, we still don't have a peace treaty with the victorious powers, which translates into that we still are under occupation rule. Only Russia peacefully pulled its troops back after German reunification.

Thirdly, even Merkel couldn't give a straight answer when this problem was asked. She only said that after the 2+4 Treaty, Germany's sovereignty was technically restored. WTF does technically mean? Either we have full sovereignty or we don't have.And ten she continues that we still have old agreements from 1968 (in fact, they were not agreements but rather an imposition) that under certain circumstances our sovereignty cannot be ensured.

BTW, she contradicted herself during that explanation and didn't even realise it.

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## Ruisheng

SOHEIL said:


> We are completely alone...


Iran？No! In our lab we have a charming Iranian girl. We all call her princess persian~



Götterdämmerung said:


> LOL, a Viet has the whole picture unlike we Germans. You are just as crazy as the other Viets here.
> 
> Firstly, Schäuble did say that since 1945 Germany never had full sovereignty. As far as I know, there was not EU back in 1945, not even the EEC.
> 
> Secondly, we still don't have a peace treaty with the victorious powers, which translates into that we still are under occupation rule. Only Russia peacefully pulled its troops back after German reunification.
> 
> Thirdly, even Merkel couldn't give a straight answer when this problem was asked. She only said that after the 2+4 Treaty, Germany's sovereignty was technically restored. WTF does technically mean? Either we have full sovereignty or we don't have.And ten she continues that we still have old agreements from 1968 (in fact, they were not agreements but rather an imposition) that under certain circumstances our sovereignty cannot be ensured.
> 
> BTW, she contradicted herself during that explanation and didn't even realise it.


Confused, annexed? puppet?


----------



## GeHAC

远古盘古 said:


> 中国要帮 如果俄罗斯完了 美国会来打中国 中国完蛋了


俄罗斯实力不是关键，关键是俄罗斯倒了，美国就能更好完成对欧洲的整合。到时候根本不需要军事手段，纯粹经济手段就足够了，尤其是现在美国经济复苏势头挺强。

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## SOHEIL

Ruisheng said:


> Iran？No! In our lab we have a charming Iranian girl. We all call her princess persian~



She is in France...

Most of the Iranians in foreign countries don't care about their country!


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## Götterdämmerung

Ruisheng said:


> Confused, annexed? puppet?



Quoi?


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## somsak

Russia morgage the land to sea of Japan north of North Korea to China with x% per year, for y trillions Dollars of loan. Win-win


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## Ruisheng

somsak said:


> Russia morgage the land to sea of Japan north of North Korea to China with x% per year, for y trillions Dollars of loan. Win-win


S...Siamese?


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## cnleio

If Russia increase trade with China, even directly barter exchange or oil exchange to avoid using USD. They won't die, the key is increasing imports from China.

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## sahaliyan

油价下降应该主要还是因为海湾的王爷们想挤垮美国的页岩油，以及中国经济下行（这一点非常明显，铁矿石价格也下降了）由此造成的需求下降以及美国页岩油的开发。美国页岩油的开采成本好像是40-60美元，而沙特石油开采成本不足10美元，页岩油承担不起这样的低价。低油价对中国是好事，不过对于面临通缩压力的欧洲，可能会加大通缩压力
至于老毛子的问题，是他们自己作死，干涉其他国家内政，他们本来就是华而不实的经济，普京这个所谓的“大帝”完全是依赖油气出口来治理国家，他执政时期油价一直高企，所以看似很牛气，但是一旦油价下跌，真实情形就暴露出来，2009年毛子经济负增长了多少，大家都很清楚。碰到现在这样的低油价，再加上西方制裁，资本外逃，往后的日子一定会很难过，但是是他们自找的
俄罗斯在乌克兰东部玩的这套把戏，他们当年在新疆所谓三区革命中也玩过，苏军士兵换上民族军的服装伪装成民族军，攻占三区，建立“东土耳其斯坦共和国临时政府”，把苏联籍的公民推为领袖，而更早他们在外蒙也这么玩过。毛子是历史上伤害中国最大的国家，所以我对乌克兰的境遇感同身受，他们现在所遭遇的不就是当年中国所遭遇的吗？
乌克兰脱离毛子可以削弱毛子的实力，让毛子更加专注于其西部边境，减轻其对东部边境的关注，我们的压力会减轻不少，所以对中国是好事

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## Echo_419

Götterdämmerung said:


> What did Schäuble mean when he said that since 1945 Germany hasn't been a sovereign country? Care to explain in simple German or English? He said that in 2013, 12 years after the 2+4 Treaty.
> 
> Even Merkel had problems explaining, or as a matter of fact, trying to manoeuvre around the fact that we are not a fully (WTF is that, either you are or you are not) sovereign country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's OT because you are losing the argument, as usual.



Worrying let's hope with the declining US power Germany regains its sovereign state status.No one which makes such good cars should suffer this

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## Keel

dlclong said:


> Global Times has *hair* article, we couldn't look at Russia down, China will help Russia



fair? 

Why should we put down the Russians?
For some idiots on the block, Russians have a great culture and civilization which are one of the best in the world 

We need a multi-polar world for rebalancing against the aggressive "sole superpower's" policies
Russia is one of the pillars

We should help Russia but with carefully conceived conditions

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## ChineseTiger1986

Edison Chen said:


> True, China has a relatively integrated industrial system, unlike other developing countries, China has great potential to utilize this advantage to develop advanced military tech. I am curious in which field has China been better than Russia? The navy?



Pretty much in all domains China will be ahead.



GeHAC said:


> 俄罗斯实力不是关键，关键是俄罗斯倒了，美国就能更好完成对欧洲的整合。到时候根本不需要军事手段，纯粹经济手段就足够了，尤其是现在美国经济复苏势头挺强。



Don't get fooled by the US propaganda.

Since back in the early 2008, they even claimed that there won't be any economic crisis.

The US manufacturing base still hasn't been recovered, so they are only powerful with their finance nukes.

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## NiceGuy

Tragedy happen as Ruble falling to fast. Can China help Russia when China economy is also going down badly ??


> *Falling Ruble Causes Businessman to Commit Suicide in Moscow Hotel*
> © Wikipedia/ A.Savin
> BUSINESS
> 10:22 17.12.2014(updated 10:40 17.12.2014)
> 143511
> *Yesterday’s Russian stock exchange panic caused a co-founder of a financial company to kill himself in one of Moscow’s top hotels - Hotel National.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © SPUTNIK/ MIKHAIL KUTUZOV
> Sputnik Special Financial Analysis: Ruble, What Are You Doing? Please Stop!
> MOSCOW, December 17 (Sputnik) — A businessman, who owned a stake in an investment enterprise, committed suicide in Hotel National Moscow yesterday night, having shot himself in the head. Police are investigating the incident.
> 
> 
> The late Ivan Shervashidze left a suicide note and his last will. According to some reports, he owned a business selling musical instruments and equipment and co-owned a financial firm. He had allegedly suffered from psychological stress induced by the recent stock exchange panic, which has lead to the ruble’s dramatic depreciation this week.
> The hotel’s surveillance cameras captured the last moments of the victim’s life. The incident happened at about 9 p. m. in a hotel suit, the body being found by the personnel seconds after the shot.
> 
> On Tuesday, Russia’s currency crisis entered its most acute phase, with the ruble plunging to 100 RUB for 1 EUR, and 80 RUB for 1 USD, causing a sell-off of Russia’s national currency, queues in currency exchange desks, and a stock market panic. It is believed that Russian companies, trading and borrowing in foreign currencies, will be hit hardest, with the most unsecure enterprises facing imminent bankruptcy.
> 
> 
> Falling Ruble Causes Businessman to Commit Suicide in Moscow Hotel / Sputnik International


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## welcomeJason

somsak said:


> Russia morgage the land to sea of Japan north of North Korea to China with x% per year, for y trillions Dollars of loan. Win-win


You have got it. yea!!


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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Forget about the fallen China.
> 
> Before of that, the US will first make a southern branch of NATO (ASEAN) by taking you out first, since they won't allow a communist nation being part of the southern NATO.


A clear message to u: if u fall, we will take back our lost isls, we r so close to u now


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## MarkusS

Viet said:


> NO, it is not. that is a long game. you play GO, I play CHESS. forgotten?
> 
> 
> you are follower of the Linke, I guess. NO, germany is a sovereign nation since years. Thanks to Helmut Kohl.
> @MarkusS this guy is rediculous.




He is a communist. Don´t bother with him

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> ORly? So, Schäuble talked nonsense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come back again, if you know more about Germany.




Schäuble is right. Germany is a member state of the EU and has to follow EU laws. A "souvereign germany" would make as much sense as a souvereign city of munich. Your pathetic small nationalism is something from the past. Let me make this clear. People like you will not push my freedom into your pathetic, small boarders.


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## NiceGuy

welcomeJason said:


> Welcome!! Please don't take your girls here for sale.Taiwanese need them more.How could those gilrs's babies face the reality that their moms are vietnamese....


I will report ur post to Mod as it violate the rule


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> A clear message to u: if u fall, we will take back our lost isls, we r so close to u now



Why you are using my uploaded pic?

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Why you are using my uploaded pic?


Our news paper also upload that picture and had a long article abt the trip of our Gepard ship to the island.


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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> Schäuble is right. Germany is a member state of the EU and has to follow EU laws. A "souvereign germany" would make as much sense as a souvereign city of munich. Your pathetic small nationalism is something from the past. Let me make this clear. People like you will not push my freedom into your pathetic, small boarders.



Since 1945 when the EU was not even created? What about Merkel's meandering around the question whether we are a souvereign nation? That question is particularly adressed to the relationship we have with the US. I don't think that we have the right to vote for any politicians in the US, do we?

As I have stated before, I have been very much in support of the EU, so stop your bloody lies, will ya!? Or find a post where I have ever questioned Germany's membership within the EU. If you can't find any, then STFU!

It is the US that is undermining the EU by creating the mess with the euro and now with Ukraine! How the fick are we ever going to finance a super size PIIG Ukraine? It's GDP (PPP) per capita lies between the mafia state Kosovo and Jamaica even the before the crisis.

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## welcomeJason

NiceGuy said:


> I will report ur post to Mod as it violate the rule


Welcome to reporting that. But How cruel it is that their babies will know their moms were bought from another contry.

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## NiceGuy

welcomeJason said:


> Welcome to reporting that. But How cruel it is that their babies will know their moms were bought from another contry.


China also have same problem, but when I post the same post like u, _I got ban immediately 

So, be mature, pls delete ur post before the Mod may ban u_


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## welcomeJason

NiceGuy said:


> China also have same problem, but when I post the same post like u, _I got ban immediately _


yes! Too many moms were bought from your contry to Chinese rural areas...Why your goverment didn't ban it....

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## MarkusS

Götterdämmerung said:


> Since 1945 when the EU was not even created? What about Merkel's meandering around the question whether we are a souvereign nation? That question is particularly adressed to the relationship we have with the US. I don't think that we have the right to vote for any politicians in the US, do we?
> 
> As I have stated before, I have been very much in support of the EU, so stop your bloody lies, will ya!? Or find a post where I have ever questioned Germany's membership within the EU. If you can't find any, then STFU!
> 
> It is the US that is undermining the EU by creating the mess with the euro and now with Ukraine! How the fick are we ever going to finance a super size PIIG Ukraine? It's GDP (PPP) per capita lies between the mafia state Kosovo and Jamaica even the before the crisis.




In 1945 germany was under occupation. Later this changed into EU laws. I guess it is not your strength to add a timeline with events. 

And please...don´t say "we". I´m not part of your little world.


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## Galad

China is most probably helping Russia as we speak.But Russia needs to clean its own house first.Since 90ies there are literally traitors and saboteurs in Russian power circles who put interests of the West above all.Yes steps are being taken against them but too slowly.They need to be removed from power in order for Russia to reach its full potential.When reading their statements is pretty clear how little they care for their own country.In early December Putin(or was it Parushev? ) has said they know who are behind attacks against ruble.If the ones in the West are out of reach(via legal means) the ones in Russia are not.OMON units need to be pay them a visit-just to few of the biggest currency speculators.And everything will be back to normal.Of course ruble will not go down to 30ish per USD.Low oil price and sanctions will still effect ruble but artificially low exchange rate will be no more. Just look who is owner of one of the Moscow exchange platforms USD to Ruble!A person who have been in Kiev during February and had a meeting with that lunatic McCain...Russia needs to clean Western backed rats and take a deep look at economical success of China.At least Russian power elites judging from their various statements finally realized it is not worth to keep pursue same course and act same way when dealing with two-faced Western Countries.

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## Götterdämmerung

MarkusS said:


> In 1945 germany was under occupation. Later this changed into EU laws. I guess it is not your strength to add a timeline with events.
> 
> And please...don´t say "we". I´m not part of your little world.



LOL, I exposed you as a liar and all you can say is that?

Boy, right now it's your money and my money that is transferred to the Ukraine. It's the money we in Germany need for our schools, infrastructure and skill enhancement of the working force and the EU needs them dearly to safe a failed mafia state like Italy.

You still couldn't answer why we have to grant the US special rights to install facilities within our border to spy on all of us and last but not least to spy on our industries, e.g. Airbus, your employer.

On top of that, haven't you see the video I posted where Biden bragged that he forced us to sanction Russia although we, the EU, were against it as that would hurt our economy? What is your silly excuse this time? Where is the sovereignty of the EU? Has the EU transferred that to the US as well?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Galad said:


> China is most probably helping Russia as we speak.But Russia needs to clean its own house first.Since 90ies there are literally traitors and saboteurs in Russian power circles who put interests of the West above all.Yes steps are being taken against them but too slowly.They need to be removed from power in order for Russia to reach its full potential.When reading their statements is pretty clear how little they care for their own country.In early December Putin(or was it Parushev? ) has said they know who are behind attacks against ruble.If the ones in the West are out of reach(via legal means) the ones in Russia are not.OMON units need to be pay them a visit-just to few of the biggest currency speculators.And everything will be back to normal.Of course ruble will not go down to 30ish per USD.Low oil price and sanctions will still effect ruble but artificially low exchange rate will be no more. Just look who is owner of one of the Moscow exchange platforms USD to Ruble!A person who have been in Kiev during February and had a meeting with that lunatic McCain...Russia needs to clean Western backed rats and take a deep look at economical success of China.At least Russian power elites judging from their various statements finally realized it is not worth to keep pursue same course and act same way when dealing with two-faced Western Countries.



There are indeed many western saboteurs in Russia's finance systems, and just look at the damages they have done so far.

For now, the US has robbed at least 100 billion from Russia with this loophole, and Russia needs to purge those western worshippers from the government.

To help Russia to purge the western influence is also to help China itself, and Russia needs to follow the socialism based on the regulated free market economy.

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## Okemos

Why should China help Russia? I don't get the logic behind supporting a militarily belligerent neighbor. Try to read some Chinese history books, esp. the Grand Historian, and learn why a strong neighbor is never a good idea in long term. Russia is and never has been a peace loving cuddly bear, but has swallowed other countries' territories, including China's. 

Well, I understand older generation Chinese sentiment towards Russia since they learned Russian as their second language in youth. But leadership should not be overrun by sentiments, rather should have long term national interest in mind.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Okemos said:


> Why should China help Russia? I don't get the logic behind supporting a militarily belligerent neighbor. Try to read some Chinese history books, esp. the Grand Historian, and learn why a strong neighbor is never a good idea in long term. Russia is and never has been a peace loving cuddly bear, but has swallowed other countries' territories, including China's.
> 
> Well, I understand older generation Chinese sentiment towards Russia since they learned Russian as their second language in youth. But leadership should not be overrun by sentiments, rather should have long term national interest in mind.



You KMT boys will never understand the brilliance of CPC, that's why you have lost everything to them since 70 years ago.

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## AgentOrange

How feasible is it for Russia to put a freeze on price increases of basic necessities such as food, medicine, etc? A short term moratorium. That would buy Russia some time to hopefully weather the Ruble's freefall.

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## Götterdämmerung

AgentOrange said:


> How feasible is it for Russia to put a freeze on price increases of basic necessities such as food, medicine, etc? A short term moratorium. That would buy Russia some time to hopefully weather the Ruble's freefall.



Price freeze is always a bad idea, that would panic everyone. Psychology is probably the most important factor in the economy.

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## terranMarine

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You KMT boys will never understand the brilliance of CPC, that's why you have lost everything to them since 70 years ago.


son of a bitch like that Taiwanese will always kiss the black hole (where the sun never shines) of KMT. Taiwan deserves to go down economically and then he will see just how competent they really are.

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## Zsari

Okemos said:


> Why should China help Russia? I don't get the logic behind supporting a militarily belligerent neighbor. Try to read some Chinese history books, esp. the Grand Historian, and learn why a strong neighbor is never a good idea in long term. Russia is and never has been a peace loving cuddly bear, but has swallowed other countries' territories, including China's.



Three kingdoms, read three kingdoms. Besides what better opportunity is there for China to issue its own version of the Marshall Plan and move RMB forward.

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## cnleio

sahaliyan said:


> 油价下降应该主要还是因为海湾的王爷们想挤垮美国的页岩油，以及中国经济下行（这一点非常明显，铁矿石价格也下降了）由此造成的需求下降以及美国页岩油的开发。美国页岩油的开采成本好像是40-60美元，而沙特石油开采成本不足10美元，页岩油承担不起这样的低价。低油价对中国是好事，不过对于面临通缩压力的欧洲，可能会加大通缩压力
> 至于老毛子的问题，是他们自己作死，干涉其他国家内政，他们本来就是华而不实的经济，普京这个所谓的“大帝”完全是依赖油气出口来治理国家，他执政时期油价一直高企，所以看似很牛气，但是一旦油价下跌，真实情形就暴露出来，2009年毛子经济负增长了多少，大家都很清楚。碰到现在这样的低油价，再加上西方制裁，资本外逃，往后的日子一定会很难过，但是是他们自找的
> 俄罗斯在乌克兰东部玩的这套把戏，他们当年在新疆所谓三区革命中也玩过，苏军士兵换上民族军的服装伪装成民族军，攻占三区，建立“东土耳其斯坦共和国临时政府”，把苏联籍的公民推为领袖，而更早他们在外蒙也这么玩过。毛子是历史上伤害中国最大的国家，所以我对乌克兰的境遇感同身受，他们现在所遭遇的不就是当年中国所遭遇的吗？
> 乌克兰脱离毛子可以削弱毛子的实力，让毛子更加专注于其西部边境，减轻其对东部边境的关注，我们的压力会减轻不少，所以对中国是好事


LOL ... this's the brilliant post i read here, all truth. Russia economy overdependence on Oil/Gas Export, now oil price down deeply hurt them. Another export star is weapons, but the biggest buyer like India try to buy more weapons from West like U.S, rest tranditional buyer like Syria of Middle-East in Civil War.


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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> Tragedy happen as Ruble falling to fast. Can China help Russia when China economy is also going down badly ??



You seem to be in great joy, sharing news of tragedy. This does reflect badly on you guys, let me remind you. For one second, do not let your hatred for China to make you hate everything even distantly related to China.

Besides, China being the largest trading nation in the world, you will have to express your joy each time somebody commits suicide at some place in the world -- most probably China is the largest trading partner of that nation, small or big.

*Russia has enough resources to reverse ruble crisis – Medvedev*
Published time: December 17, 2014 10:57 

READ MORE: Ruble tempest, tries to make ground after traumatic turmoil

_"As for all economic and production goals which you set, our country has foreign currency resources to attain them, you know this, there are market instruments needed to satisfy the specific demand,”_ he told his audience.

_"We will coordinate actions”_, he said, specifying that it would include an increase in foreign exchange bank refinancing, and balancing demand and supply of foreign currency through increasing provision of foreign currency liquidity if necessary.

Medvedev admitted there are certain fundamental factors behind the weakening ruble, like lower oil prices and no access to international financial markets, but said the psychological factor is huge.

_"….the numbers that we’ve seen in the exchange offices over the past few days do not correspond to the real situation, and are way beyond the limits of the range comfortable for the economy and for the people,"_he said, adding that emotions have played a big role in this situation.

The Prime Minister said this isn’t the first ruble turmoil for Russia.

_“…we have an experience of anti-crisis decisions,"_ he said, adding he also held a meeting on the financial and economic situation on Tuesday.

Medvedev said everyone admits the ruble is now undervalued.

_"Its course has pulled away from fundamental indexes and does not reflect the state of the economy,"_ he said.

*Restoring order in the foreign exchange market is in everyone’s common interest, but stressed that Russia wouldn’t use any extreme measures, the PM said.
*
_*“Our future actions should be based on market mechanisms."*_

One of the biggest worries for Russia’s Western partners is the risk of capital controls, which Russia has repeatedly denied it would introduce.

The MSCI investment group has warned that it would exclude Russia from the MSCI Emerging Markets Index should it start controlling capital flows or currency transactions.
*
The Central Bank of Russia (CBR) has spent more than $80 billion of its foreign exchange reserves since the beginning of 2014 propping up the ruble. As of the start of December, Russia’s FX reserves stood at $418 billion, which far exceeds the $16 billion Russia had saved up ahead of the 1998 default.*

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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> A clear message to u: if u fall, we will take back our lost isls, we r so close to u now


The truth is Chinese so close to u, ur news report garbage. Just WAKE UP !







BTW read this thread 
*China/Vietnam standoff at the Johnson South Reef*

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## terranMarine

How can China's economy be doomed based on the current Russia's struggling against Western sanctions? The Vietcong knows it's crap he's cramming out here but still continues with this senseless daily activity. Boasting to be Russia's best friend and yet they criticize Russia's actions on Crimea/Ukraine issues. This NiceGuy even laughs as he seems to be enjoying Russia going down with the assumption it will have a lasting impact on China's rise. If China isn't doing well then Japan will feel the pain more severely as she depends on our growth. They just love contradicting themselves. Only mikey boy here seems to think his posts are intelligent and amusing.

What i want to know are the detailed strategies CPC has in store for SCS and these brainless savages

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> How can China's economy be doomed based on the current Russia's struggling against Western sanctions? The Vietcong knows it's crap he's cramming out here but still continues with this senseless daily activity. Boasting to be Russia's best friend and yet they criticize Russia's actions on Crimea/Ukraine issues. This NiceGuy even laughs as he seems to be enjoying Russia going down with the assumption it will have a lasting impact on China's rise. If China isn't doing well then Japan will feel the pain more severely as she depends on our growth. They just love contradicting themselves. Only mikey boy here seems to think his posts are intelligent and amusing.
> 
> What i want to know are the detailed strategies CPC has in store for SCS and these brainless savages



The whole time that Viet Cong is gloating over Russia's downfall, he's asking Russia, China, and the US to "help Vietnam unify the Sub-Mekong" area. Why isn't Vietnam strong enough to do it on its own? Why is Vietnam so pathetic that it's constantly begging for help and/or free goods from other countries? 

Also, @Chinese-Dragon - is correct. Hong Kong with only 7 million people ranks #40 in GDP rankings while Vietnam with 59 million people ranks #59. Truly Vietnam is an inferior nation.

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## terranMarine

AgentOrange said:


> The whole time that Viet Cong is gloating over Russia's downfall, he's asking Russia, China, and the US to "help Vietnam unify the Sub-Mekong" area. Why isn't Vietnam strong enough to do it on its own? Why is Vietnam so pathetic that it's constantly begging for help and/or free goods from other countries?



Yes the sub mekong dream NiceGuy has been spreading here like a virus, what was it again? Oh right Russia will help NiceGuy's dream come true and yet he is enjoying how Russia is having a tough time right now. And the endless begging from Viet hoping the US/Japan/Russia will donate expensive warships for FREE. Some of them talk like beggars and others like to teach us history of how they kicked Japan/France/China/USA out themselves.

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## cnleio

俄罗斯只有*走头无路*情况下,才会主动同中国套近乎。Our Chinese must know the turth in here.

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> Yes the sub mekong dream NiceGuy has been spreading here like a virus, what was it again? Oh right Russia will help NiceGuy's dream come true and yet he is enjoying how Russia is having a tough time right now. And the endless begging from Viet hoping the US/Japan/Russia will donate expensive warships for FREE. Some of them talk like beggars and others like to teach us history of how they kicked Japan/France/China/USA out themselves.



Vietnam is home to SE/E Asia's most malnourished children who suffer from stunted growth and rival North Korean children in height. Vietnam should gloat less about Russia and worry more about whether or not they have enough rotten fish heads to feed their wives and kids. And when Viet Congs fantasize about conquering the "sub-Mekong area", that's like a homeless beggar talking about a hostile takeover of Berkshire Hathaway.

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## Kyle Sun

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The modern finance systems were designed by the Jewish Oligarchs, so it is impossible to beat them in their own game.
> 
> The only way to win is to bypass their rules.


The whole world is running under this rule , no way to get out except isolating ourselves.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Kyle Sun said:


> The whole world is running under this rule , no way to get out except isolating ourselves.



If CPC has this kind of pessimistic thought, then no way China would become what it is today.


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## terranMarine

AgentOrange said:


> Vietnam is home to SE/E Asia's most malnourished children who suffer from stunted growth and rival North Korean children in height. Vietnam should gloat less about Russia and worry more about whether or not they have enough rotten fish heads to feed their wives and kids. And when Viet Congs fantasize about conquering the "sub-Mekong area", that's like a homeless beggar talking about a hostile takeover of Berkshire Hathaway.



I'm starting to believe the means US had applied during the Vietnam War had a profound effect creating these mentally retarded offspring which we can evidently see here roaming free. Our millennium rule have also contributed to their hatred for us though we were not even that cruel compared to the Americans who bombed the sh!t out of them. Perhaps we weren't ruthless enough as we only had swords those days.

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> I'm starting to believe the means US had applied during the Vietnam War had a profound effect creating these mentally retarded offspring which we can evidently see here roaming free. Our millennium rule have also contributed to their hatred for us though we were not even that cruel compared to the Americans who bombed the sh!t out of them. Perhaps we weren't ruthless enough as we only had swords those days.



They loved us for ruling over them. That's why we stayed for 1000 years. I mean, what kind of pathetic country actively fights an occupier but fails for 999 years straight? No, they definitely liked us and begged us to stay.

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## NiceGuy

terranMarine said:


> Yes the sub mekong dream NiceGuy has been spreading here like a virus, what was it again? Oh right Russia will help NiceGuy's dream come true and yet he is enjoying how Russia is having a tough time right now. And the endless begging from Viet hoping the US/Japan/Russia will donate expensive warships for FREE. Some of them talk like beggars and others like to teach us history of how they kicked Japan/France/China/USA out themselves.


Balh balh blah...whatever, we r making a good progress on unifying sub-Mekong region, Laos-Cam's military r under our control since 1979, Thai general shows his support to Vn against China. Russia's help will make the progress go faster and we surely will return the favor to Russian bro after that.

Thats why Great Soviet union supported VN to unify the region in 1979. Strong Vn will give more help to Russia, China only wanna maintain Russia as a buffer zone, so they never truly help Russia to revive Great Soviet union.


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## AgentOrange

NiceGuy said:


> Balh balh blah...whatever, we r making a good progress on unifying sub-Mekong region, Laos-Cam's military r under our control since 1979, Thai general show his support to Vn against China. .



No proof. Only Viet lies, as usual.


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## ChineseTiger1986

terranMarine said:


> Yes the sub mekong dream NiceGuy has been spreading here like a virus, what was it again? Oh right Russia will help NiceGuy's dream come true and yet he is enjoying how Russia is having a tough time right now. And the endless begging from Viet hoping the US/Japan/Russia will donate expensive warships for FREE. Some of them talk like beggars and others like to teach us history of how they kicked Japan/France/China/USA out themselves.



Maybe they should beg the US to help them to conquer the entire Southeast Asia.

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## AgentOrange

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Maybe they should beg the US to help them to conquer the entire Southeast Asia.



NiceGuy actually thinks the US will help Vietnam do that - conquer SE Asia. Even though last time the US killed 3 million Viets for the "crime" of trying to re-unify their own country. Some Viets make no sense.

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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> China only wanna maintain Russia as a buffer zone, so they never truly help Russia to revive Great Soviet union.



The biggest obstacle for Russia to revive USSR is not China, but USA.

Guess who is now occupying those Eastern European nations?



AgentOrange said:


> NiceGuy actually thinks the US will help Vietnam do that - conquer SE Asia. Even though last time the US killed 3 million Viets because they tried to conquer the 2nd half of their own country. Some Viets make no sense.



That's why he is ready to backstab Russia.

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## AgentOrange

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The biggest obstacle for Russia to revive USSR is not China, but USA.
> 
> Guess who is now occupying those Eastern European nations?
> 
> 
> 
> That's why he is ready to backstab Russia.



Very true. NATO has crept closer and closer to Russia's borders, placing missiles near Russia with the purpose of upsetting a very tenuous strategic balance, yet Russia is somehow the aggressor for trying to stand up for itself and defend its sphere of interest? Sheer hypocrisy.

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## Chinese-Dragon

AgentOrange said:


> Also, @Chinese-Dragon - is correct. Hong Kong with only 7 million people ranks #40 in GDP rankings while Vietnam with 59 million people ranks #59. Truly Vietnam is an inferior nation.



Vietnam actually has 90 million people as of the latest data (2013).

So worse for them. 

Even I admit myself that HK alone carries very little weight in global affairs. Meaning that Vietnam is in the "LOL" territory, having more than ten times the population of HK and yet a much smaller economy.

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## ChineseTiger1986

AgentOrange said:


> Very true. NATO has crept closer and closer to Russia's borders, placing missiles near Russia with the purpose of upsetting a very tenuous strategic balance, yet Russia is somehow the aggressor for trying to stand up for itself and defend its sphere of interest? Sheer hypocrisy.



NATO has promised to disband its military alliance after USSR disbanded its own.

Guess that USSR was naive for believing this.

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## Galad

Another sign Russia needs to clear Western backed rats from her house.Look at interest rate for small and big business in Russia.Something is seriously wrong with the politic of CB of Russia(which is Russian just by name) and big banks when you can go and take a loan from abroad or street pawnbrokers with much better terms..Ah btw just recently Russia for first time from years had a ruble emission NOT backed from dollar reserves( "Russian " CB is working like currency board). Emission was backed by Rosneft assets.And rumor is that was one of the reasons for ruble being hit so fast and hard in recent days.Regardless of such troubles I`m sure everything will be fine.

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## terranMarine

That's why Russia is knocking on China's door for more cooperation and deals. I wonder why Russia isn't even bothered asking for Vietnam's help.

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## AgentOrange

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Vietnam actually has 90 million people as of the latest data (2013).
> 
> So worse for them.
> 
> Even I admit myself that HK alone carries very little weight in global affairs. Meaning that Vietnam is in the "LOL" territory, having more than ten times the population of HK and yet a much smaller economy.



LMAO, that's even more humiliating. 90 million people! 




terranMarine said:


> That's why Russia is knocking on China's door for more cooperation and deals. I wonder why Russia isn't even bothered asking for Vietnam's help.



Vietnam offered to help by asking for 20% less Russian foreign aid than usual.

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## Galad

TaiShang said:


> The Central Bank of Russia (CBR) has spent more than $80 billion of its foreign exchange reserves since the beginning of 2014 propping up the ruble.


Money wasted away for nothing.Much better option was to lend those money to Russian business at normal reasonable rates and take care for all traitors in CB,MoF and various big banks.Prosecute couple big names(they are all guilty anyway and secret services know their crimes) and all attacks against ruble would be over in no time.

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## NiceGuy

cnleio said:


> The truth is Chinese so close to u, ur news report garbage. Just WAKE UP !
> View attachment 176981
> 
> 
> 
> BTW read this thread
> *China/Vietnam standoff at the Johnson South Reef*


We had a reporter on the trip, let me translate some to u guys.


> *“Toàn tàu vào vị trí chiến đấu!” *- khẩu lệnh lại đanh gọn vang lên, bộ đội rầm rập đóng cửa, thoắt cái đã gọn gàng ở vị trí của từng người. *Khuôn mặt ai cũng sắt lại, uất ức*, từ vị đại tá già cho đến cậu chiến sĩ mới nhập ngũ: Đây Gạc Ma - bãi đá thiêng liêng của Tổ quốc đã bị Trung Quốc bất ngờ nổ súng tấn công
> Tháng 12 ngoài Gạc Ma | Chính trị - Xã hội | Thanh Niên


December in Gac Ma (JS reef).
.........
"*All crew in combat positions !* " - the crew on Gepard corvette quickly close the doors and stay in their position after few minutes . *Their face look resentful toward China forces *, from old colonel to his new soldiers : This is Gac Ma (JS reef) - was robbed by China in suddenly opened fire attack.
-----------------------------------------------------

Not only me but All VNese r waiting for ur economy colpase to take back what belong to us


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## AgentOrange

NiceGuy said:


> We had a reporter on the trip, let me translate some to u guys.
> 
> December in Gac Ma (JS reef).
> .........
> "*All crew in combat positions !* " - the crew on Gepard corvette quickly close the doors and stay in their position after few minutes . *Their face look resentful toward China forces *, from old colonel to his new soldiers : This is Gac Ma (JS reef) - was robbed by China in suddenly opened fire attack.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Not only me but All VNese r waiting for ur economy colpase to take back what belong to us



You'll be waiting a long time since Hong Kong by itself has a larger and more vibrant economy than Vietnam, with less than 1/10th the population. 

In the meantime, what's more likely is that Vietnam annoys China for the last time and China comes in and stays for another 1000 years. Or just nukes Hanoi. Whichever.

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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> We had a reporter on the trip, let me translate some to u guys.
> 
> December in Gac Ma (JS reef).
> .........
> "*All crew in combat positions !* " - the crew on Gepard corvette quickly close the doors and stay in their position after few minutes . *Their face look resentful toward China forces *, from old colonel to his new soldiers : This is Gac Ma (JS reef) - was robbed by China in suddenly opened fire attack.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Not only me but All VNese r waiting for ur economy colpase to take back what belong to us


LOL ... let's wait when VN economy can surpass China's, not China economy collapse. Right now we should thanks ur ppl spending Billions of import materials from China, make our economy more stronger ... LOL !

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## Chinese-Dragon

AgentOrange said:


> LMAO, that's even more humiliating. 90 million people!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam offered to help by asking for 20% less Russian foreign aid than usual.



HK Police are coming.

Vietnamese need to explain why they don't have their identification documents.

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## IPen

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Vietnam actually has 90 million people as of the latest data (2013).
> 
> So worse for them.
> 
> Even I admit myself that HK alone carries very little weight in global affairs. Meaning that Vietnam is in the "LOL" territory, having more than ten times the population of HK and yet a much smaller economy.


Economy means not too much.The Viet's unrealistic delusion & laziness make their nation hopeless IMO

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## NiceGuy

cnleio said:


> LOL ... let's wait when VN economy can surpass China's, not China economy collapse. Right now we should thanks ur ppl spending Billions of import materials from China, make our economy more stronger ... LOL !


Blah blah.... whatever, from now on, our Corvette will point the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma (JS reef) every time we pass by. If China collapse like Soviet union, then dont cry when we open fire to ur illegal forces to take back our isls


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## AgentOrange

NiceGuy said:


> Blah blah.... whatever, from now on, our Corvette will point the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma (JS reef) every time we pass by. If China collapse like Soviet union, then dont cry when we open fire to ur illegal forces to take back our isls



Last time a Viet foolishly pointed his gun towards a Chinese ship, he and 69 of his Viet friends ended up floating face down in the water. 

To recap: The dumb Viet went like this: ; Then the Chinese ship did this: ; And then all 70 Viets looked like this: 

So no, your little corvette won't be pointing its guns at any Chinese people, places, or things, any time soon.

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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> Blah blah.... whatever, from now on, our Corvette will point the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma (JS reef) every time we pass by. If China collapse like Soviet union, then dont cry when we open fire to ur illegal forces to take back our isls


I think u should understand the gap between both Navy first ... just think twice ! Does China care ur 2x Corvettes or 2~3x Kilo subs ?
*2014.12 China Navy already own 23x DDGs + 67x FFGs, PLAN warship list*

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## AgentOrange

cnleio said:


> I think u should understand the gap between both Navy first ... just think twice !
> *2014.12 China Navy already own 23x DDGs + 67x FFGs, PLAN warship list*



And what's Vietnam's navy like in comparison?

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The biggest obstacle for Russia to revive USSR is not China, but USA.
> 
> Guess who is now occupying those Eastern European nations?
> 
> .


USA will run away like in VN war if China give a full help to Russia, but of course u dont.

If Russia help Vn to unify sub-Mekong region, we surely will give a full help to revive great Soviet union.



cnleio said:


> I think u should understand the gap between both Navy first ... just think twice ! Does China care ur 2x Corvettes or 2~3x Kilo subs ?
> *2014.12 China Navy already own 23x DDGs + 67x FFGs, PLAN warship list*


We have enough anti-ship missile to sink all of ur cheap copied warship. That why we confidently pointed the Gun to ur forces in our last trip to Gac Ma (JS reef)


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## Galad

NiceGuy said:


> If Russia help Vn to unify sub-Mekong region, we surely will give a full help to revive great Soviet union.


Are you for real ?Had good laugh reading your posts.Tell me you are joking!

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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> We have enough anti-ship missile to sink all of ur cheap copied warship. That why we confidently pointed the Gun to ur forces in our last trip to Gac Ma (JS reef)


How many anti-ship missiles Vietnam owned ? What's the type ? If u knew.

The gap between Missile Expert: China and Missile Buyer: Vietnam is bigger than both Navy.

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## IPen

NiceGuy said:


> Blah blah.... whatever, from now on, our Corvette will point the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma (JS reef) every time we pass by. If China collapse like Soviet union, then dont cry when we open fire to ur illegal forces to take back our isls


U guys are so stupid & hopeless & funny.
Stop sitting there to wait for China's collapse,try to get up to do sth. to contribute to it.
But unfortunately even if China collapse some day, u r still terribly powerless to get back what socalled "belongs to you".
Pity on you for living in dreams.

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## NiceGuy

Galad said:


> Are you for real ?Had good laugh reading your posts.Tell me you are joking!


Great Soviet union will force US to stop bullying other small nations, stop lying abt the reason to attack small country like Iraq,too. It will bring a balance power to the World.



cnleio said:


> How many anti-ship missiles Vietnam owned ? What's the type ? If u knew.
> 
> The gap between Missile Expert: China and Missile Buyer: Vietnam is bigger than both Navy.


Who cares abt the Gap ?? we have the guts to fight till the end when u dont. When ur economy collapse, u will not even have enough ammunition to keep fighting.

Even our frog men can eliminate ur forces easily wt their bare hand, no need a single bullet


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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> Who cares abt the Gap ?? we have the guts to fight till the end when u dont. When ur economy collapse, u will not even have enough ammunition to keep fight.
> 
> Even our frog men can eliminate ur forces easily wt their bare hand, no need a single bullet


LOL ... in battlefield the tech gap will kill ppl like last U.S - Iraqi War.

A China air-to-air missile produce factory

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## NiceGuy

cnleio said:


> LOL ... in battlefield the tech gap will kill ppl like last U.S - Iraqi War.
> 
> A China air-to-air missile produce factory
> View attachment 176987


U r weak, thats why u can unify TW until now while VN defeated US in 1975 to get back the South.So, pls Dont blah blah abt the 'Gap' wt us. Its no use, US in 1975 still far stronger than u , they had nuke carrier when u still cant even operate a proper normal carrier.


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## IPen

@NiceGuy 
Tell me what's the hope of your country?your opponent's collapse?

You learn and copy so many culture from us except the essence.
And after seeing so many 90% talking 10% doing countries ,i'm pround of my country and culture even more.

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## StarCraft_ZT

@NiceGuy 

I guess you don't want to be the laughingstock here, this topic is not your Viet's concern.

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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> U r weak, thats why u can unify TW until now while VN defeated US in 1975 to get back the South.So, pls Dont blah blah abt the 'Gap' wt us. Its no use, US in 1975 still far stronger than u , they had nuke carrier when u still cant even operate a proper normal carrier.


1980s China SY-1 anti-ship missile(retired from PLAN in 1990s) produce factory, just find 30years ago GAP ... LOL !

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## NiceGuy

cnleio said:


> 1980s China SY-1 anti-ship missile(retired from PLAN in 1990s) produce factory, just find 30years ago GAP ... LOL !
> 
> View attachment 176995
> View attachment 176996





IPen said:


> @NiceGuy
> Tell me what's the hope of your country?your opponent's collapse?
> 
> You learn and copy so many culture from us except the essence.
> And after seeing so many 90% talking 10% doing countries ,i'm pround of my country and culture even more.


Believe whatever u want, we dont care, we will keep pointing the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma every time we pass by, if u collapse like Soviet, then u will know what will happen


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## cnleio

NiceGuy said:


> Believe whatever u want, we dont care, we will keep pointing the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma every time we pass by, if u collapse like Soviet, then u will know what will happen


When China collapsed, our Missiles & PLAN warships still there even more than 2014 year... im just curious what Vietnam can produce in that time ?


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## IPen

NiceGuy said:


> Believe whatever u want, we dont care, we will keep pointing the gun toward ur forces in Gac Ma every time we pass by, if u collapse like Soviet, then u will know what will happen


Really glad to see that.
You spend so many money to buy weapons while can not afford the Asian Game and the improvement of citizen well being.
Just tell your fellow people not to steal into our country.

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## AgentOrange

cnleio said:


> When China collapsed, our Missiles & PLAN warships still there even more than 2014 year... im just curious what Vietnam can produce in that time ?



If China collapsed, I think the PLA would nuke Vietnam just for shits and giggles.

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## cnleio

AgentOrange said:


> If China collapsed, I think the PLA would nuke Vietnam just for shits and giggles.


China won't nuke Vietnam any more, but learnt the history once China unstable, Vietnam will first get troubles in inside or from outside. If ... Vietnamese can read their past history ... LOL !

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## NiceGuy

cnleio said:


> China won't nuke Vietnam any more, but learnt the history once China unstable, Vietnam will first get troubles in inside or from outside. If ... Vietnamese can read their past history ... LOL !


Blah blah...whatever. Update for the fight btween Russia-US.


> *US officials: US to start talks with Cuba to normalize full diplomatic relations, open embassy*
> 
> 
> By Associated Press December 17 at 9:45 AM
> WASHINGTON — US officials: US to start talks with Cuba to normalize full diplomatic relations, open embassy.
> 
> 
> Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
> US officials: US to start talks with Cuba to normalize full diplomatic relations, open embassy - The Washington Post


Just like VN, Cuba was Soviet's ally. Seem like US wanna cut off all support to Russia...China may also feel the heat from EU-US to them .


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## TaiShang

Sputnik Special Financial Analysis: Ruble, What Are You Doing? Please Stop! / Sputnik International

MOSCOW, December 16 (Sputnik) – The Russian ruble nosedived to a historic low on Tuesday afternoon trading at 80 rubles to the dollar and 100 to the euro, losing 20 to 26 percent in the course of just one day on Moscow's trading.

While the currency rates are creating utter panic on the market, Sputnik's Financial and Executive Editors sat down to discuss the causes of this fiscal whirlpool – and give you a simple and readable digest of what is happening with the ruble.

*Executive Editor*: Russia's Central Bank hiked the main deposit rate from 10.5 to 17 percent overnight to save the falling ruble. I know this has been done before in countries like Turkey. To me this looks like Baron Munchausen’s attempt to pull himself out of the swamp by his own braid. This obviously caused more harm than good, because now it’s nearly 100 rubles to 1 euro.

*Financial Editor*: It looks like there has been a massive currency exchange this morning. People are trading rubles for dollars and euros. Raising the deposit rate by 650 points is not going to stop the ruble from falling. In all truth, the rate has to be brought up to 100%.

*Executive Editor*: How is that going to save us? If the main borrowing rate is 100%, the banks will not be able to borrow money!

*Financial Editor*: Yes. It’s either that, or the ruble continues falling. Which is better? There are too many rubles on the market at the moment, 30 trillion to be precise. If the Central Bank raises the main interest rate to 100%, smaller banks will be forced to close, but that will lead to a healthier balance of the ruble and the dollar.

*Executive Editor*: How?

*Financial Editor*: A high interest rate will make the ruble grow. We had too many rubles on the market, and their overall amount grew from 15 to 30 trillion in just 5 years. We should have witnessed the ruble plummet much earlier, but all those dollar loans held it in place. Now there are no dollars – and the ruble is sliding down.


*





© SPUTNIK/ DMITRY ASTAKHOV*

*Executive Editor*: If the main deposit rate is 100%, the banks will have nowhere to go for money, and loans in rubles will not just become more expensive – they will become extinct. People will stop borrowing money.

*Financial Editor*: And that is amazing!! There cannot be any loans during a financial crisis.

*Executive Editor*: We’re not growing the ruble by doing that; we are freezing it, creating an Ice Age.

*Financial Editor*: True, but not for long. We will only need 40 days of a hyper-high main deposit rate to get rid of all the extra ruble liquidity. 15% of loans in Russia are bad loans. That is bad for the ruble rate, too. Last, but not least, the Central Bank gave a 600 billion-ruble-loan to Rosneft last week, and Rosneft has dollar debts. If Rosneft were to buy dollars, for example, the ruble would be on its way to outer Space.

*Executive Editor*: When you say ‘get rid of the extra ruble liquidity’, will that make the ruble even cheaper?

*Financial Editor*: The other way around. But first banks need to stop giving out loans in rubles. The fewer rubles there are on the market, the better.

*Executive Editor*: It’s not all about loans though! People are panicking and buying dollars and euros, getting rid of their rubles. That is making the ruble cheaper.

*Financial Editor*: It could be worse. In 1998 the ruble fell from 6 to 30 rubles per dollar, which is 5 times cheaper than what it was before. So today there’s still room for it to fall to 150 rubles per dollar.

*Executive Editor*: I still don’t understand how freezing all loans can save the ruble. Imagine people are left with hard cash. The smaller banks are shut down. People are growing poorer and poorer. What will happen to those bad loans?

*Financial Editor*: Banks used to forgive bad loans. Now, if banks know that they will not be getting any more rubles from the Central Bank, they will demand returns, confiscate property etc. That way, all those rubles will go straight back to the Central Bank. This will stop the ruble from falling further. I mean… people can live without a loan for a new iPhone; they will lose much-much more if the ruble falls further.

*Executive Editor*: How will that help save the ruble?

*Financial Editor*: If the bulk of rubles comes back to the Central Bank and the Central Bank will stop feeding them back to the economy (which is important), there will be fewer rubles out there. If there are fewer rubles – the ruble grows. If there is a scarcity of something, it is always more expensive.


*



*


*Executive Editor*: That will once again take away from the common folk; Moreover, covering up problems like that using your own resources is just not right. It’s like cutting your leg off and eating it when you’re starving. It will solve one problem temporarily, but will create an even greater problem in the long term.

*Financial Editor*: There you go. That’s why the main borrowing rate is 17%, not 100% and the ruble is sliding further.

*Executive Editor*: The future is grim – I see people painfully returning bad loans, small banks slowly dying, and big companies are being bailed out. This 100% borrowing rate will only make the process go faster. What you’re suggesting is a financial nuclear winter. A shock therapy for the Russian economy.

*Financial Editor*: If what we need right now is to hold down the ruble – this is the only way possible. When the Central Bank printed those 30 trillion rubles, no one thought the dollar would be disappearing from our economy, and there it goes. What should we do now? Russia has $700 billion in debts, while our dollar income fell because of the falling oil prices. The question is – how far can it fall if we don’t start withdrawing money from the economy.

*Executive Editor*: The prices will rise if you withdraw money from the economy!

*Financial Editor*: Yes, that’s another problem. The less money, the more expensive the goods and services are. But it’s not that simple. A fiscal deficit holds the inflation down, because consumers prefer not to spend money. That’s what’s happening in Europe and Japan right now – everything is so expensive that the consumer doesn’t want to buy anything. Russian imports, on the other hand, have grown because of the falling ruble.

*Executive Editor*: Yes, people are buying cars and TVs like crazy. But, I will repeat this once again, if we are trying to save the economy by raising the main deposit rate to 100%, we are hurting the common folk, they run out of money, they stop investing, stop buying, prices plummet, businesses and entrepreneurs suffer.

*Financial Editor*: Yes, that’s the plan!

*Executive Editor*: There should be a different way. Can the Central Bank raise the deposit rate to 100%, wait for the money to come back and then spend it on subsidizing small and medium-size enterprises? Is import substitution even an option? How long will that take?

*Financial Editor*: Yes, if you do it carefully, if it’s controlled, if there is no way these investments can become liquid assets. If they do, this will weaken the ruble. Massive government investments often weaken local currencies. Import substitution is a long process that depends on the economy. Developing new branches can take up to 5 years, because you need trained personnel, new product markets etc.


*




© SPUTNIK/ ALEXEI DANICHEV
Key Rate Hike to Return Currency Market to Normal in the Long Term: Central Bank
Executive Editor*: If the Central Bank can help grow enterprises, wouldn’t that beef up the economy and strengthen the ruble?


*Financial Editor*: Of course! The growth of the industrial sector does not directly depend on currency rates. If we invest in its growth, the economy will become healthier, this will reassure investors and the ruble will grow. This is a great long-term strategy. But for now we are a resource-based economy with 70% of it state-owned, so the Central Bank will be bailing out state-owned companies.

*Executive Editor*: That’s why we got hit so hard by falling oil prices? What’s happing to the oil prices?

Financial Editor: The oil prices are falling because Saudi Arabia wants to stop the US from entering the oil market. They’ve done it before in 1986, now they want to do it again.

*Executive Editor*: So the Saudis are dumping oil prices to prevent the US from entering the oil market? How should we know it’s not a joint measure against Russia?

*Financial Editor*: That is also possible, but US oil is a threat to Saudi oil, because it’s hard to predict what could happen on the market after America enters it. Russia is not a dangerous competitor because it’s predictable. And it’s not even about that! There are economies much more reliant on natural resources: like Nigeria or Algeria, but they weren’t hit as hard by the oil prices. It’s the dollar deficit in Russia that’s causing this ruble crisis. It’s because large state-owned enterprises have huge dollar debts.

*Executive Editor*: There is no short-term solution for this.

*Financial Editor*: These is another way out: the sanctions are lifted on both sides, Russia is flooded with dollar loans, the ruble grows to 30, not 60 rubles per dollar, the economy is stable and healthy and pigs will fly.

*Executive Editor*: So what do people do now? Panic and freak out? Take money out of the banks? Spend the money? Cancel their holidays in Europe?

*Financial Editor*: Too late. All these options are bad. Many private entrepreneurs are setting prices in dollars and euros. If the deposit rate remains high, it may be a good idea to deposit your rubles in a major bank, but with all this panic on the market – none of this matters. Judging by what’s happening on the stock exchange, everybody is waiting for 1998 to repeat. With the dollar over 75 and the euro over 90 – this is utter panic.

*Executive Editor*: What are people supposed to do with their money now? Can they save it by depositing? A little bit?

*Financial Editor*: It depends on what the Central Bank does next. As of today, there is no way to save your money. If the government manages to stabilize the ruble, then depositing is a good idea. The Central Bank must limit the liquidity of the ruble as soon as possible. This is the only option. All other measures can wait.

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## Viet

AgentOrange said:


> Vietnam is home to SE/E Asia's most malnourished children who suffer from stunted growth and rival North Korean children in height. Vietnam should gloat less about Russia and worry more about whether or not they have enough rotten fish heads to feed their wives and kids. And when Viet Congs fantasize about conquering the "sub-Mekong area", that's like a homeless beggar talking about a hostile takeover of Berkshire Hathaway.


   yes, yahoo we are as poor as africa according to chinese clowns here. pls feel and laugh. AND yes, according to some reports, chinese are mostly retards.
random image of 5 vietnamese and 1 south korean





@NiceGuy pls stop constantly talking of mekong empire. you just feed chinese trolls.



terranMarine said:


> That's why Russia is knocking on China's door for more cooperation and deals. I wonder why Russia isn't even bothered asking for Vietnam's help.


wrong, vietnam has just agreed to establish with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan a free trade area, expecting to come into reality next year. that would help to push russia economy. while you are discussing here how to help russia, we have done ours.

Customs Union, Vietnam agree on provisions of free trade agreement | Russia & India Report

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## NiceGuy

Viet said:


> @NiceGuy pls stop constantly talking of mekong empire. you just feed chinese trolls.
> 
> 
> wrong, vietnam has just agreed to establish with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan a free trade area, expecting to come into reality next year. that would help to push russia economy. while you are discussing here how to help russia, we have done ours.
> 
> Customs Union, Vietnam agree on provisions of free trade agreement | Russia & India Report


Btw: its not mekong empire, its united Mekong region where people of all sub-Mekong nations stand and fight together against all threats, and it also will give more help to Russia than VN alone.


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## Lux de Veritas

When USA and Russia mutual antagonism runs high, China should stay neutral? 

This is another good chance to profit from Cold War 2.0 and to divert heat away from China. You guys won't regret it.


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## Donatello

With Russian currency and reserves tanking, economy going in recession and oil prices plummeting, Russia has serious issues to deal with. I was reading on another site that Russia can no longer rely on China to sell oil and gas as oil prices have gone down so Chinese would want some leverage in their relationship: they might demand the Russian defense technology, like engines, avionics etc......perfect opportunity for the Chinese to Milk Russia.

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## Viet

there are speculations on the market. Beijing is ready to intervene the market to help comrade Putin. this is as part of currency swap deal between the two countries. China central bank will buy ruble for 150 billion yuan and sell the same amount of dollars. if necessary China will increase the stakes to 10 times, 1,500 billion yuan. should the action fail.

a desperate move, I guess. nobody should act against the market.

but hey...I would welcome if china goes down the drain as well

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## 55100864

we learn history, and are far-sighted people, I smell a chinese Marshall plan. Some people are deluded thinking that Russia will collapse somehow.

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## kankan326

Viet said:


> there are speculations on the market. Beijing is ready to intervene the market to help comrade Putin. this is as part of currency swap deal between the two countries. China central bank will buy ruble for 150 billion yuan and sell the same amount of dollars. if necessary China will increase the stakes to 10 times, 1,500 billion yuan. should the action fail.
> 
> a desperate move, I guess. nobody should act against the market.
> 
> but hey...I would welcome if china goes down the drain as well


I just don't understand why you Vietnamese hate Russia. Wasn't Russia your former supporter and donor? Vietnamese are good at betraying its old friends.

Back to the topic, China will and is able to help Russia.

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## Viet

kankan326 said:


> I just don't understand why you Vietnamese hate Russia. Wasn't Russia your former supporter and donor? Vietnamese are good at betraying its old friends.
> 
> Back to the topic, China will and is able to help Russia.


if I say "it is not wise if acting against the market", so I am anti-russia? you are clueless. I don´t hate russia, just analyse the market and situation. learn history: intervening in the currency market is mostly useless if the sentiment is against you.

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## Lux de Veritas

Viet said:


> if I say "it is not wise when acting against the market", so I am anti-russia? you are clueless. I don´t hate russia, just analyse the market and situation. learn history: intervening in the currency market is mostly useless if the sentiment is against you.



I disagree with a lot of PRF PRC. The best way forward for China is to watch USA fight Islamofascist, fight Russia, while leaving China alone. If China join the Axis of Evil, then she will be target of USA.

Also there are historical scores that need to be settled with Russia and many PDF PRC forget? 

While PRC can only wet dream of outer Manchuria or Kazakstan or Tuvan (all former China land), the current prize is which country can claim sphere of influence on Kyrgistan, Tajiskistan, Mongolia (all former China land as well)?

Nothing can be better when USA pick a fight on Russia.

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## cnleio

Lux de Veritas said:


> I disagree with a lot of PRF PRC. The best way forward for China is to watch USA fight Islamofascist, fight Russia, while leaving China alone. If China join the Axis of Evil, then she will be target of USA.
> 
> Also there are historical scores that need to be settled with Russia and many PDF PRC forget?
> 
> While PRC can only wet dream of outer Manchuria or Kazakstan or Tuvan (all former China land), the current prize is which country can claim sphere of influence on Kyrgistan, Tajiskistan, Mongolia (all former China land as well)?
> 
> Nothing can be better when USA pick a fight on Russia.


Whatever PRC join or not, mainland of China is next target of U.S, don't need u remind here.
U didn't read 《The Three Kingdom》 and can't understand Chinese wisdom, right now China need Russia before we get stronger.

Time is PRC's best friend, more time & more stronger (GDP + Military).

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## kankan326

Viet said:


> if I say "it is not wise if acting against the market", so I am anti-russia? you are clueless. I don´t hate russia, just analyse the market and situation. learn history: intervening in the currency market is mostly useless if the sentiment is against you.


"but hey...I would welcome if china goes down the drain as well "-------You definitely want to bury China and Russia together. As an old Chinese saying goes: You will find real friend when you are in trouble." Now we can see who is trustworthy friend. Never trust Vietnamese.

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## cnleio

The next 10 years is very important for China development, yes we need time to build ourselves more stronger (not a big mouth). During this time China should stay neutral and also need help Russia.

_"Rome wasn't built in a day" _

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## ChineseTiger1986

Lux de Veritas said:


> I disagree with a lot of PRF PRC. The best way forward for China is to watch USA fight Islamofascist, fight Russia, while leaving China alone. If China join the Axis of Evil, then she will be target of USA.
> 
> Also there are historical scores that need to be settled with Russia and many PDF PRC forget?
> 
> While PRC can only wet dream of outer Manchuria or Kazakstan or Tuvan (all former China land), the current prize is which country can claim sphere of influence on Kyrgistan, Tajiskistan, Mongolia (all former China land as well)?
> 
> Nothing can be better when USA pick a fight on Russia.



China is always the biggest target for the US.

Take out Russia is simply to take out China's buffer zone.



cnleio said:


> The next 10 years is very important for China development, yes we need time to build ourselves more stronger (not a big mouth). During this time China should stay neutral and also need help Russia.
> 
> View attachment 177164
> 
> View attachment 177165
> 
> View attachment 177166



We greatly appreciate that Russia has provided us so much precious time.

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## northeast

Donatello said:


> With Russian currency and reserves tanking, economy going in recession and oil prices plummeting, Russia has serious issues to deal with. I was reading on another site that Russia can no longer rely on China to sell oil and gas as oil prices have gone down so Chinese would want some leverage in their relationship: they might demand the Russian defense technology, like engines, avionics etc......perfect opportunity for the Chinese to Milk Russia.


There is not so much russian defense technology that we really need，it's outdated for decades.

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## Carlosa

cnleio said:


> Whatever PRC join or not, mainland of China is next target of U.S, don't need u remind here.
> U didn't read 《The Three Kingdom》 and can't understand Chinese wisdom, right now China need Russia before we get stronger.).



Totally correct, if Russia goes down, China is the next target. If China is smart, it will help Russia as much as it can and it has to be unconditional help. The stakes are actually much higher than what most people realize. The US strategy against Russia has being going on for many years and just now it has reached critical phase. The world hegemon wants to eliminate the competition and make sure that the world order stays as a unipolar world order.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China is always the biggest target for the US.
> 
> Take out Russia is simply to take out China's buffer zone.
> 
> We greatly appreciate that Russia has provided us so much precious time.



I usually don't agree with you, but I've been reading your posts on this subject and you get the picture 100% correct. Most people don't realize what is actually going on and how high the stakes are.



northeast said:


> There is not so much russian defense technology that we really need，it's outdated for decades.



You guys don't understand what is going on, is not about milking Russia, its about doing it for the sake of china if you really understand what is going on. Help must be unconditional and it must be very serious help.

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## northeast

Carlosa said:


> Totally correct, if Russia goes down, China is the next target. If China is smart, it will help Russia as much as it can and it has to be unconditional help. The stakes are actually much higher than what most people realize. The US strategy against Russia has being going on for many years and just now it has reached critical phase. The world hegemon wants to eliminate the competition and make sure that the world order stays as a unipolar world order.
> 
> 
> 
> I usually don't agree with you, but I've been reading your posts on this subject and you get the picture 100% correct. Most people don't realize what is actually going on and how high the stakes are.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys don't understand what is going on, is not about milking Russia, its about doing it for the sake of china if you really understand what is going on. Help must be unconditional and it must be very serious help.


Nope，we will help russia in our own pace.China don't need to hide behind russia like a coward.but in the end，enemy's enemy is our friend，so we will help them if we can get some profit from that.


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## Keel

NiceGuy said:


> U blah blah abt friendship wt Thailand, but what did Chinese do to Thai people ?? Yeah, They scalded them wt hot water
> Chinese tourist scalded flight attendant with hot water
> 
> Same things u do to other nations like Russia-VN-Phil etc,



You are just trying to be silly
That was an isolated case
The criminals who acted stupid on the plane were arrested in China
They are violently condemned by our netizens
We are sorry to the Thai flight attendant who was injured because of the violent behaviour of the 2 shameful people.

Russia is a whole different country to us than the Vietcongs
All Viet and the OP trolls should put the wedge to rest.
Dont try to split our relationship with Russia.


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## cnleio

Carlosa said:


> Totally correct, if Russia goes down, China is the next target. If China is smart, it will help Russia as much as it can and it has to be unconditional help. The stakes are actually much higher than what most people realize. The US strategy against Russia has being going on for many years and just now it has reached critical phase. The world hegemon wants to eliminate the competition and make sure that the world order stays as a unipolar world order.
> 
> I usually don't agree with you, but I've been reading your posts on this subject and you get the picture 100% correct. Most people don't realize what is actually going on and how high the stakes are.
> 
> 
> You guys don't understand what is going on, is not about milking Russia, its about doing it for the sake of china if you really understand what is going on. Help must be unconditional and it must be very serious help.


The only unconditional help will be in WWIII, in Peace Time China helps to exchange Oil / Gas / Techs from Russia, it's a normal business for both Russia and China. After West funds escape from Russia, it's a good time for "Made in China" dominate Russia market.

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## Keel

Meantime, as our people from the Foreign Affairs Office said in the media we are confident that Russia is fully capable to weather the storm. It has a rich Fx reserve of over $400 billion
All the best Russia

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> Totally correct, if Russia goes down, China is the next target. If China is smart, it will help Russia as much as it can and it has to be unconditional help. The stakes are actually much higher than what most people realize. The US strategy against Russia has being going on for many years and just now it has reached critical phase. The world hegemon wants to eliminate the competition and make sure that the world order stays as a unipolar world order.
> 
> 
> 
> I usually don't agree with you, but I've been reading your posts on this subject and you get the picture 100% correct. Most people don't realize what is actually going on and how high the stakes are.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys don't understand what is going on, is not about milking Russia, its about doing it for the sake of china if you really understand what is going on. Help must be unconditional and it must be very serious help.



Here is our solution for Russia and the others.

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## Carlosa

cnleio said:


> The only unconditional help will be in WWIII, in Peace Time China helps to exchange Oil / Gas / Techs from Russia, it's a normal business for both Russia and China. After West funds escape from Russia, it's a good time for "Made in China" dominate Russia market.



By unconditional help I meant help without trying to profit from it, help for the sake of help, didn't mean for china to get in the line and a comfromtation with the west.


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## cnleio

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Here is our solution for Russia and the others.
> 
> View attachment 177187


BeiJing is finding troubles to build 3rd Silk Road, i do not support it.



Carlosa said:


> By unconditional help I meant help without trying to profit from it, help for the sake of help, didn't mean for china to get in the line and a comfromtation with the west.


Billions USD is Chinese hard-earned for years, China is not anyone ATM or Printing Press. Why not Vietnam unconditional help ur big brother Russia ?

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Here is our solution for Russia and the others.
> 
> View attachment 177187



Yes, that sounds good. The present system that is totally controlled by the west through its financial institutions and by the use of the dollar as the global currency only works for USA and those that accept their fate as to be dependent of that system and to be economically subjugated by it. If a country tries to oppose that system, then the system has plenty of ways to reck their economy as they are doing now with Russia.

The BRICS started the process to set up an alternative system, but it will take time, the process is gradual, US will do whatever it takes to bring that effort down. Russia is a soft target, they are the weakest of the 2 main leaders of that process (Russia and China), so Russia gets targeted first. 

Actually Russia has been targeted for a long time, the cold war had never really ended from the US perspective. Things used to be going well for the US during the Yeltsin years after the Russian economy collapsed, the Russian oligarchs took control of the economy and the natural resources and through them, the west was also taking control of that. Then Putin comes in and reversed all that, so they hate him for that and then on top of that, he started to rearm and make Russia strong again and to conspire with China to change the world order. They can't accept that, so they have to bring the Russian economy down, do regime change, get their friends in power again, take control of Russian resources and then take care of China. That's their plan and that's why China has to give heavy financial help to Russia. 

Russia is strong and have a very strong leader, it will not collapse, but it can use some serious help.



cnleio said:


> Billions USD is Chinese hard-earned for years, China is not anyone ATM or Printing Press. Why not Vietnam unconditional help ur big brother Russia ?



You don't understand, china needs to help Russia for china's sake. You don't see the big picture of what is actually taking place.

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## 55100864

@Carlosa May i ask why so pro Russia? as an European?


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## Carlosa

55100864 said:


> @Carlosa May i ask why so pro Russia? as an European?



I'm not the only European that is pro Russian, actually, most of the right wing movements in Europe tend to support Russia. There is a community of people that have an alternative view of the situation there and are against what US / EU are doing. Many people are against the EU.
Not all Europeans are brain washed.

My personal perspective is to be on the side of what I consider right, it does not matter where my country stands; if Spain is wrong, I will say it without hesitation. I go for what I believe to be right. Nationalism does not have a place on this. I fully support Russia and also what the BRICS are trying to do.

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## 55100864

Carlosa said:


> I'm not the only European that is pro Russian, actually, most of the right wing movements in Europe tend to support Russia. There is a community of people that have an alternative view of the situation there and are against what US / EU are doing. Many people are against the EU.
> Not all Europeans are brain washed.
> 
> My personal perspective is to be on the side of what I consider right, it does not matter where my country stands; if Spain is wrong, I will say it without hesitation. I go for what I believe to be right. Nationalism does not have a place on this. I fully support Russia and also what the BRICS are trying to do.


I agree with you, but the mainstream in EU is still anti-Russia, which dose not make any sense to me. Russia had already committed suicide and became fairly obedient to the west, but the west still try to push the bear to the corner, playing with fire....
Anyway, we fully understand how vicious the west is, they would only be more malevolent toward china.

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## AMDR

55100864 said:


> became fairly obedient to the west,


Annexing Crimea is being obedient to the west? What?

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## Carlosa

55100864 said:


> I agree with you, but the mainstream in EU is still anti-Russia, which dose not make any sense to me. Russia had already committed suicide and became fairly obedient to the west, but the west still try to push the bear to the corner, playing with fire....
> Anyway, we fully understand how vicious the west is, they would only be more malevolent toward china.



There is a lot of dissent in Europe with respect to the situation in Ukraine; Many Germans don't agree with Merkel, they don't want to be a part in a proxy war between USA and Russia in Ukraine. Still, the media sold out to US interests, actually, recently, a German newspaper editor revealed that the CIA gives money to the press that followed the US line.

Quite a few people understand that the US did regime change in Ukraine with help of the EU, Victoria Nuland admitted to how US spent $5 billion to bring about the color revolution and bring the elected government down, the Maidan activists were manipulated as to do regime change, actually, in the end, the Maidan was highjacked by the Nazi right wing and they orchestrated the massacre in Maidan square that brought the government down.

Yeah, you can say they are certainly vicious and if they bring Russia down, you can guess who is next?



55100864 said:


> I agree with you, but the mainstream in EU is still anti-Russia, which dose not make any sense to me. Russia had already committed suicide and became fairly obedient to the west, but the west still try to push the bear to the corner, playing with fire....
> Anyway, we fully understand how vicious the west is, they would only be more malevolent toward china.



Yes, the west is definitely playing with fire, you don't push a nuclear superpower into a corner, that can have deadly consequences. 

These are the type of Ukrainian forces that the west is supporting:

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## mike2000

Viet said:


> there are speculations on the market. Beijing is ready to intervene the market to help comrade Putin. this is as part of currency swap deal between the two countries. China central bank will buy ruble for 150 billion yuan and sell the same amount of dollars. if necessary China will increase the stakes to 10 times, 1,500 billion yuan. should the action fail.
> 
> a desperate move, I guess. nobody should act against the market.
> 
> but hey...I would welcome if china goes down the drain as well



Well said. I dont think even if China wants they can save Russia. If Russia now thinks it needs others support/help to remain relevant/not to collapse then its indeed in an even more precarious situation than i thought. I already said this several times on here, Russia needs to focus onmore productive sectors of its economy like electronics,manufacturing, having a good supply chain for high tech manufacturing,create a better industrial base, and reduce its useless/senseless defence spending which at the 3rd highest in the world(over 4% of GDP, and with a smaller economy than even Italy.lol)) is a massive waste and is unsustainable in the long run(read U.S.S.R 2.0) coupled with its over reliance on natural resources i.e oil and gas. This is simply unstainable as it has been proved several times in the past. So i expect things to get worse for Moscow though, before they get any better.

This doesnt means Moscow will collapse though(unlike some of us seem to think), it simply means they will decline even more rapidly than they are already and their world influence will continue its slow but sure decline this coming years as other more promising developing countries(and even the U.S.lol) grow. In 2 decades or more from now, Russia will still be a major stakeholder in the wolrd, but a minor one to be honest. This again should make Putin realise you cant expect to go head on against the wolrd's most powerful/influential block today(i.e the West.U.S) and expect to come out unscathed, since despite what others might think, we are still by far the most powerful region on planet earth, so going directly against the west/U.S isn't really a good move by moscow(nor Iran or any other country for that matter) since it simply slows down your economy even more and isolates your country for no good reason, they should have done it more wisely, the Chinese and to some extent the Indians seems to be playing the game better. Hopefully this will serve as a reminder to them again, to keep a low profile until they are strong or powerful enough to go head on against us, Nothing wrong in that, you should know you stregth/capabilities, Russia seems to overestimate its own, living off U.S.S.R memories it seems. Putin should have stopped at Crimea, yet he wanted more, so he has only himself to blame.

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## 55100864

AMDR said:


> Annexing Crimea is being obedient to the west? What?


I'm not a fanboy of Russia, and i hold no emotion toward them,and i know Russia is not some sort of angel either(how can anyone expect a powerful nation to behave like angel anyway). i was just stating the fact, and yes, annexing Crimea was just russia's fair reaction to the NATO expansion, the west pushed Russia too much, Putin just played along, in fact, there should be no legitimate reason for the existence of NATO after the collapse of SU, but anyway, you guys sort it out, we will helps whoever in deep trouble to balance the power, and maximize our own interests.

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## mike2000

cnleio said:


> Whatever PRC join or not, mainland of China is next target of U.S, don't need u remind here.
> U didn't read 《The Three Kingdom》 and can't understand Chinese wisdom, right now China need Russia before we get stronger.
> 
> Time is PRC's best friend, more time & more stronger (GDP + Military).



ahahahahhahahahah..........I agree with the bold part though(you seem to be quite far sighted). Russia is just a regional threat for us and a declining one, If they could challenge us economically/financially worldwide, then that will be more scary/worrying for us than they overspending on their soviet era weapons and 'scaring' us with their bombers.loool They seem to forget that tomorrow's war/power struggle will be mostly be fought economically/industrially,financial,cyber space, technologically, not militarily(they still think the old way.). Its righlty for this reason that the U.S still considers China as its primary threat/rival not Russia. Russia is just a distraction for the U.S/West in stopping us from focusing on our real long term target: China.





NiceGuy said:


> U blah blah abt friendship wt Thailand, but what did Chinese do to Thai people ?? Yeah, They scalded them wt hot water
> Chinese tourist scalded flight attendant with hot water
> 
> Same things u do to other nations like Russia-VN-Phil etc,



ahahahahaha..........my man is back.

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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> ahahahahhahahahah..........I agree with the bold part though(you seem to be quite far sighted). Russia is just a regional threat for us and a declining one, If they could challenegd us economically worldwide, then that will be more scary for us than they overspending on their soviet era weapons and 'scaring' us with their bombers.loool They seem to forget tomorrows war/power struggle will be mostly fought economically/industrially,financial and economically, not militarilly(they still think the old way.). Its righlty for this reason that the U.S still considers China as its primary threat/rival not Russia. Russia is just a distraction fror the U.S/West in stopping us from focusing on our real long term target: China.



The financial power is the backbone for the military power.

Without the financial power, you cannot afford to start a new arms race.

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## Zsari

Viet said:


> there are speculations on the market. Beijing is ready to intervene the market to help comrade Putin. this is as part of currency swap deal between the two countries. China central bank will buy ruble for 150 billion yuan and sell the same amount of dollars. if necessary China will increase the stakes to 10 times, 1,500 billion yuan. should the action fail.
> 
> a desperate move, I guess. nobody should act against the market.
> 
> but hey...I would welcome if china goes down the drain as well



Silly. In 2005 oil was below 30 dollar a barrel, and Ruble was 28 to a dollar. Today, its currency is under attack and under valued. China would only make money buying it at its low.

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## Oldman1

55100864 said:


> I'm not a fanboy of Russia, and i hold no emotion toward them,and i know Russia is not some sort of angel either(how can anyone expect a powerful nation to behave like angel anyway). i was just stating the fact, and yes, annexing Crimea was just russia's fair reaction to the NATO expansion, the west pushed Russia too much, Putin just played along, in fact, there should be no legitimate reason for the existence of NATO after the collapse of SU, but anyway, you guys sort it out, we will helps whoever in deep trouble to balance the power, and maximize our own interests.



Thats not a fair reaction. Russia would have just force Ukraine to be part of alliance. Not take some of its territory.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Oldman1 said:


> Thats not a fair reaction. Russia would have just force Ukraine to be part of alliance. Not take some of its territory.



Go ahead, just put your anti-missile defense systems in Ukraine.

You action is imply pushing Russia more towards China.

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## Okemos

China could learn from Singapore! We should import some Singaporean politicians, they are quite savvy in profiting from international power struggles, lol.

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## Oldman1

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Go ahead, just put your anti-missile defense systems in Ukraine.
> 
> You action is imply pushing Russia more towards China.



Our ships with Aegis system is already enough for Russia to go towards China anyways and our ships are U.S. territory.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Okemos said:


> China could learn from Singapore! We should import some Singaporean politicians, they are quite savvy in profiting from international power struggles, lol.



LMAO, a giant China to learn from a tiny Singapore?

I won't mind if KMT wanna keep shrinking their ROC territory into the size of Singapore.

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## 55100864

Oldman1 said:


> Thats not a fair reaction. Russia would have just force Ukraine to be part of alliance. Not take some of its territory.


As if the west actually care about the sovereignty of Ukraine ? Save it, nobody cares about Ukraine, that how the geo-politic really works.

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## Oldman1

55100864 said:


> As if the west actually care about the sovereignty of Ukraine ? Save it, nobody cares about Ukraine, that how the geo-politic really works.



Indeed! Lets see how far Russia's economy goes if they really care about Ukraine.

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## 55100864

Oldman1 said:


> Indeed! Lets see how far Russia's economy goes if they really care about Ukraine.


I'm a realist, i don't buy any political correct bullshit like human right, rule of law etc...no such thing exist in geo-politics, only law of jungle, and I have to say that the west is the master of it.

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## Oldman1

55100864 said:


> I'm a realist, i don't buy any political correct bullshit like human right, rule of law etc...no such thing exist in geo-politics, only law of jungle, and I have to say that the west is the master of it.



And the East would be 2nd place?


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## 55100864

Oldman1 said:


> And the East would be 2nd place?


We sit and watch, like I said, we will help whoever( US or Russia) in deep trouble to balance the power, fair?


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## Götterdämmerung

Carlosa said:


> I'm not the only European that is pro Russian, actually, most of the right wing movements in Europe tend to support Russia. There is a community of people that have an alternative view of the situation there and are against what US / EU are doing. Many people are against the EU.
> Not all Europeans are brain washed.
> 
> My personal perspective is to be on the side of what I consider right, it does not matter where my country stands; if Spain is wrong, I will say it without hesitation. I go for what I believe to be right. Nationalism does not have a place on this. I fully support Russia and also what the BRICS are trying to do.



You are wrong to think that only the right wing movement supports Russia, as a matter of fact, the supporters of Russia come from all political streams, there is no right wing and left wing, because we all see what the US does is against all of us within the EU. This EU elite, from politicians to media, that we have right now has been either infiltrated by US-slaves who are in the many transatlantic think tanks or they have some heavy skelettons in the closet and NSA has all their files, e.g. Merkel and Gauck, both were collaborators of the Stasi.

Both Merkel and Gauck are right wings and yet they both work against our interests and for the US. It gets even worse, the German Green party is one of the proponents against Russia. All the mainstream parties are part of the game against Russia. The only political party that raises its voice against this madness is the tiny little Left Party.

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## Superboy

Look at history. China's 3 kingdoms period was very stable. If 1 gets too strong, the other 2 will work to reduce that one's power.


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## dlclong

#This is why I always say you stupid.Like the Singaporeans, America bananas also are short-sighted, stupid.
You don't know China, China history, Chinese policy, give advice and suggestions on Chinese with USA type thinking.
On this matter, you can read our China ancient history, romance of the Three Kingdoms, but maybe you Singaporen can not read.
China will not neutral, Chinese will help Russia!thats all.

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## Carlosa

Götterdämmerung said:


> You are wrong to think that only the right wing movement supports Russia, as a matter of fact, the supporters of Russia come from all political streams, there is no right wing and left wing, because we all see what the US does is against all of us within the EU. This EU elite, from politicians to media, that we have right now has been either infiltrated by US-slaves who are in the many transatlantic think tanks or they have some heavy skelettons in the closet and NSA has all their files, e.g. Merkel and Gauck, both were collaborators of the Stasi.
> 
> Both Merkel and Gauck are right wings and yet they both work against our interests and for the US. It gets even worse, the German Green party is one of the proponents against Russia. All the mainstream parties are part of the game against Russia. The only political party that raises its voice against this madness is the tiny little Left Party.



I never said only the right wing, I only gave them as an example since some large right wing movements like Marie La Pen in France, etc are supporters of the Russian position and as you said, the mainstream parties are usually against Russia, that's why I used the right wingers as an example and I meant the right wing that is out of the mainstream, that's all. Of course I know that there are many Europeans from all walks of life that see what US / EU are really doing. The more radical left wing parties are already understood as being naturally pro Russian.


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## dlclong

Okemos said:


> China could learn from Singapore! We should import some Singaporean politicians, they are quite savvy in profiting from international power struggles, lol.


Stop being stupid, China with Singapore no similarity, in addition to the "dictatorship".
You make Chinese learning Singapore as you American mistress ?

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The financial power is the backbone for the military power.
> 
> Without the financial power, you cannot afford to start a new arms race.



Russia has a pretty decent financial power, but they are being attacked from all sides. The collapse of oil prices was engineered by USA and agreed during Kerry's meeting in Saudi Arabia and now the speculation against the ruble is being directed from the Fed, they have something akin to a financial warfare department and they are going all out with it against Russia. The sanctions are actually just the minor part of a 3 prong attack. Its not easy to resist such an attack. Russia is getting damaged quite badly, they are going to make it, but they can use some help.



Götterdämmerung said:


> You are wrong to think that only the right wing movement supports Russia, as a matter of fact, the supporters of Russia come from all political streams, there is no right wing and left wing, because we all see what the US does is against all of us within the EU. This EU elite, from politicians to media, that we have right now has been either infiltrated by US-slaves who are in the many transatlantic think tanks or they have some heavy skelettons in the closet and NSA has all their files, e.g. Merkel and Gauck, both were collaborators of the Stasi.
> 
> Both Merkel and Gauck are right wings and yet they both work against our interests and for the US. It gets even worse, the German Green party is one of the proponents against Russia. All the mainstream parties are part of the game against Russia. The only political party that raises its voice against this madness is the tiny little Left Party.



Let me ask you, why do you think Merkel sold out so badly to the US? Even the Russians didn't expect it so much. Do you think the NSA have something on her? They did tap her phones after all.


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## ChineseTiger1986

dlclong said:


> Stop being stupid, China with Singapore no similarity, in addition to the "dictatorship".
> You make Chinese learning Singapore as you American mistress ?



Just don't waste time with that KMT fanboy.

With the KMT supporters like him, it will tell to the average Chinese that KMT is still siding with our enemies to harm China's national interests.

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## Götterdämmerung

Carlosa said:


> Let me ask you, why do you think Merkel sold out so badly to the US? Even the Russians didn't expect it so much. Do you think the NSA have something on her? They did tap her phones after all.



It's more than that. Merkel has always been a spineless comformist and opportunist. In the former East Germany she was the secretary for agitation and propaganda in the FDJ, the powerfull youth organisation. As you must know, in order to get a permit to study at the university, you have to show your loyalty to the party and guess what! She got a placement at the university in Leipzig. There are many more dark secrets about her, that's why her Stasi file is under a seal, but of course the CIA has her file.

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## TaiShang

*China monitoring ruble fall: Regulator 
December 18, 2014, BRICS Post*







_Chinese enterprises and financial institutions should use forward and swap facilities to avoid risks, said a senior official at the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, Wang Yungui [Xinhua_]

China’s foreign exchange regulator expressed concerns over the recent devaluation of the Russian ruble on Thursday, but confirmed it was tracking the situation.

Chinese enterprises and financial institutions should use forward and swap facilities to avoid risks, said a senior official at the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, Wang Yungui, during a press conference in Beijing.

The ruble plummeted to a historic low two days ago before a moderate recovery that saw it stabilize at 100 rubles to 10.27 yuan (1.65 US dollars) on Thursday.

*Wang noted that the situation had not affected transnational capital flow in China but the situation would continue to be assessed.*

*China and Russia, Wang said, were close trade partners and healthy bilateral trade was expected to continue.

“Under the circumstance, signs of capital outflows in certain months are normal. Overall, we still see net capital inflows,” he said.*

*China’s exports to Russia increased 10.5 per cent year on year and imports 2.9 per cent in the first three quarters of the year, with total trade volume valued at $70.78 billion.*

The Russian Finance Ministry has begun selling its leftover currency reserves on the market, the ministry’s press office said Wednesday.

The amount that can be sold on the market is almost $7 billion, which “involves funds on the federal budget’s single account in Russian Federal Treasury,” according to the ministry.

The move is part of the government’s new measures taken on Tuesday to stabilize domestic foreign currency market and prop up the ruble.

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## Carlosa

Götterdämmerung said:


> It's more than that. Merkel has always been a spineless comformist and opportunist. In the former East Germany she was the secretary for agitation and propaganda in the FDJ, the powerfull youth organisation. As you must know, in order to get a permit to study at the university, you have to show your loyalty to the party and guess what! She got a placement at the university in Leipzig. There are many more dark secrets about her, that's why her Stasi file is under a seal, but of course the CIA has her file.



Interesting, thank you. She did say recently, during an interview that she wanted to retire in California, that also says something about her. She is doing a lot of damage to Europe.


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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> ahahahahhahahahah..........I agree with the bold part though(you seem to be quite far sighted). Russia is just a regional threat for us and a declining one, If they could challenge us economically/financially worldwide, then that will be more scary/worrying for us than they overspending on their soviet era weapons and 'scaring' us with their bombers.loool They seem to forget that tomorrow's war/power struggle will be mostly be fought economically/industrially,financial,cyber space, technologically, not militarily(they still think the old way.). Its righlty for this reason that the U.S still considers China as its primary threat/rival not Russia. Russia is just a distraction for the U.S/West in stopping us from focusing on our real long term target: China.


LOL ... the problem is Russian they have Mr Putin & a SUPERPOWER WILL.

BeiJing also has far sighted and understand current situation, the China is a great potential nation but the problem is we r also the biggest developing nation, the PEACE TIME right now is our best friend before China really be powerful. China need continue developing for years it need a PEACEFUL external condition in ASIA regions. Now U.S focus on Ukraine Crisis to against Russia, less energy in West-Pacific.


China need stay neutral, keep trading with West/U.S to develop ourselves.
China need behind Russia, support them to earn more valuable TIME for us, like WWII U.S support Britain to against NAZI.
Ukraine Crisis is not Chinese business and not in Asia, but China need take any chance to win more TIME and get more cheaper Oil / Gas in the crisis.
*Take care,* if Ukraine Crisis become the blasting fuse of WWIII in West World ... the winner is always the guy who can laugh last.  Obviously, China not the member of West World. 
Now China still focus on building ourselves, we r a unsatisfied nation.

Now China help/support Russia as same as U.S help/support Britain in WWII to fight WAR in Europe (with NAZI), i think we all have the same interest here.

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## Edison Chen

Of course stay neutral and this is what China has already been doing.

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## cnleio

Carlosa said:


> These are the type of Ukrainian forces that the west is supporting:
> View attachment 177225


It's very interesing to see NATO & NAZI flags together, those West Ukraine just bring shame on the Europe ... it remind me even American called Afghan Taliban as Freedom Fighter to against USSR before 9.11.

LOL ... the game West usually played, to grow up the evil and the evil oneday will bite their master ! Even Adolf Hitler was a honoured guest for old Britain / France government to stop Communist spread in Europe before WWII start.

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## Carlosa

cnleio said:


> It's very interesing to see NATO & NAZI flags together, those West Ukraine just bring shame on the Europe ... it remind me ever American called Afghan Taliban as Freedom Fighter before 9.11. LOL ...



From the US perspective, if the nazis or whoever it is are on the US side, they are always the good guys and the freedom fighters, but if they are on the other side, then of course they are terrorists and anti democratic, etc, etc. Its always been that way.



Edison Chen said:


> Of course stay neutral and this is what China has already being doing.



Yes, neutral but also giving them heavy financial help because they are the only friend you got, the only powerful friend you got that can help you if one day you get attacked same as they are now and don't forget that if Russia goes down, china is next to get targeted by US.

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## TaiShang

*Pouring scorn on China-Russia engagement foolish*
Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-19 

Since the value of Ruble has slumped, the Sino-Russia relationship has been targeted. According to a Chinese commentator, the currency swap agreement worth 150 billion yuan ($24.4 billion), signed between the central banks of both sides in October, is tantamount to "directly offering money to Russia." The claim has been widely spread, leaving an impression that China is being dragged down by Russia. 

However, some economists refuted the argument. *The currency swap agreement is not like handing over money, rather it regulates the total currency exchange between the two sides. Only when real transactions are processed, a debtor-creditor relationship will be formed based on real-time exchange rate. *

The economic commentator made a simple mistake, but drew a certain number of followers. Although mainstream Chinese society has reached a consensus over the importance of developing the China-Russia comprehensive strategic collaborative partnership, *there is still opposition against Sino-Russian proximity, mainly from pro-Western forces, who look down upon Russia, and a few who are ignorant of international politics. *

It is silly if Chinese society scorn the Beijing-Moscow engagement. Facing heightened pressure from the US, China and Russia are very precious strategic partners to each other. *There are also absurd propositions suggesting that the China-US friendship should replace China-Russia ties. If the China-Russia relationship collapses, the US will only become tougher on China. A good but unallied China-Russia relationship in fact plays an important role in stabilizing relations between Beijing and Washington. *

China won't be on the losing side in the China-Russia bilateral relation. The reason why the two countries have moved closer is because they can mutually benefit from the proximity. It's a hysterical bias to claim that China is wooing Putin at the cost of its own interests. 

*Russia suffers the heaviest loss from the devaluation of the ruble, as it directly deals a heavy blow to the Russian economy. From the global perspective, China has benefited more from the tripartite relations than the Western countries, in which Russia and the West are locked into a standoff while Beijing and Moscow have further advanced cooperation. *

The ruble slump will bog down the China-Russian economic cooperation in the short-term, disturbing bilateral trade. It is important that China respects Russia, never fishing in Russia's troubled waters. When either of the two countries faces a grave crisis, it means the bilateral partnership is facing a test. Russia and Putin are far from a dead end. Few Westerners are confident that they can crush Russia. Those who want to urge China to take advantage of the Russian crisis are throwing away the bilateral partnership.

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## Viet

kankan326 said:


> I just don't understand why you Vietnamese hate Russia. Wasn't Russia your former supporter and donor? Vietnamese are good at betraying its old friends.
> 
> Back to the topic, China will and is able to help Russia.


you don´t get it. everybody knows your help comes with political costs. you used to play dirty tricks. for instance,

you helped north vietnam during the war. as price, you demanded north vietnam leadership to abandon the bond to the soviet union. as your viet comrades refused, you stopped all supports and declared war against vietnam.

another example, you "helped" cambodia to massacre their own population, and when we intervened you invaded vietnam and killed our people. I bet if you help russia now, you will ask the russians to stop weapons delivering to vietnam. or russia support for your stance in the south china sea. correct?

No, russia will survive without your "help". they should be careful in dealing with china.


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## cnleio

Here i remember someguy told me, he waiting for China collapsing ... LOL after China Game Over, neither money nor rich to ur family & nation, it's a Middle-East 2.0 to whole Far East nations.

Our generations will living in a new Far East full of Violence/ Regional War/ Religious slaughter, as a slaver forever, this's just a game rule early planed by non-Asian.  Here most nations under developing, if China collapsed no doubt a unstable region is the biggest enemy for development, and u didn't have enough oil as rich as Saudi.

It's better for China to keep strong.

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## kankan326

Viet said:


> you don´t get it. everybody knows your help comes with political costs. you used to play dirty tricks. for instance,
> 
> you helped north vietnam during the war. as price, you demanded north vietnam leadership to abandon the bond to the soviet union. as your viet comrades refused, you stopped all supports and declared war against vietnam.
> 
> another example, you "helped" cambodia to massacre their own population, and when we intervened you invaded vietnam and killed our people. I bet if you help russia now, you will ask the russians to stop weapons delivering to vietnam. or russia support for your stance in the south china sea. correct?
> 
> No, russia will survive without your "help". they should be careful in dealing with china.


Vietnam refused to be with China and against Soviet Union. But you chose to be with Soviet Union and against China. What's the difference? China and Soviet Union broke up since 1969. You should make up your mind to stand with whom immediately. Why you decided to choose Soviet Union over China after the Vietnam civil war（1975）? Weren't you cheating on China?

China supported the Khmer Rouge. That's true. Should China be responsible for everything Khmer Rouge did? US ever supported Bin Laden. 11/9 was clearly not US idea.

Regarding China's help on Russia, there is no free lunch in the world.

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## Raphael

I've seen a lot of concern trolling on western media sites about how the China-Russia relationship will never come to fruition: because of Siberia, Cold War Sino-Soviet split, Russian fears of being a "resource appendage", etc. The more numerous these paid shills become and the flakier their arguments get, the more desperate and fearful that US appears to be of the burgeoning China-Russia relationship.

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## cnleio

Recent case is the ISIS. West support Syria protest & Rebel force to against Syria government, then ISIS jumped out from Syria Rebel, took lands from Iraqi and Syria and threated more lands in Middle-East region.

If China collapsed, WAR also coming to Far East like today happened inside Iraqi and Syria, just think in a conflict region how to develop urself ? 

China need a stable Russia, not a chaos north neighbour or foreign conflicts at the door of China. A smart government must be far-sighted !  Politically Neutral, Economy deep cooperation.

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## bolo

this is not about friendship. Some members think Russia is all nice and all. They have stolen Chinese lands, threatened China at her most vulnerable times, supported india and even threatened to use nukes.

If Russia want Chinese help they need to give Chinese more in return in the form of engine tech, better deal on oil/gas and some land. I think and hope CPC will extend help once Russia is on her knees.

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## Keel

bolo said:


> this is not about friendship. Some members think Russia is all nice and all. They have stolen Chinese lands, threatened China at her most vulnerable times, supported india and even threatened to use nukes.
> 
> If Russia want Chinese help they need to give Chinese more in return in the form of engine tech, better deal on oil/gas and some land. I think and hope CPC will extend help once Russia is on her knees.



What you said is somewhat correct
Russians have their own agenda on China
But they are not an imminent and ferocious danger, unlike the hegemony which is using all forces - media, cyber, allies, espionage, embargoes and sanctions, opinion polls, NGOs, movements and revolutions, proxies, hardwares, finance and trade .. to try to topple both of China and Russia
We have more in common on the long haul in territorial defense than USA
They may use India as a prawn; but the US is doing the same sellling weapons to India as well. If the Russian is not supplying hardware to the Indians, US will be happy to fill the shoes
So we should give the Russia more respect. 
We all know how good the Indians are. So in this respect, relax buddy!

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## northeast

Let them solve it out.I'm sure russian wouldn't give a sh!t if we have a limited war with Vietnam.We are not allies.Don't be naive and have some confidence.Pathetic.What did they do when we had some conflict in SCS?nothing,They still sell their weapons to Vietnam.
Russia is more like a fearless gangster,no need to bind ourselve with them.


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## Galad

For now sitiation has stabilized.But attacks will continue.It is all out war(short of direct military confrontation for now) West against Russia(and rest of the BRICS and their allies).Such loss of value in such short time has absolutely nothing to do with sanctions or slow economy(Russian economy actually is moving ahead) and everything to do with market manupulation.LIBOR/FX/gold &silver ...every single market is rigged and manupulated by Western financial institutions.It is easy to hurt any currency when have control over the platforms and printing press.Btw 5th column in Russia is trying to create a panic-they spread the rumor Sberbank(one of the biggest banks in Russia) will stop servicing its own debit/credit issued cards.Interesting info-more than 2 years ago in september 2012 was a message Russian people and bussines need to prepare for a rate from 50-70 rubles per USD in the future.

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## Carlosa

Galad said:


> For now sitiation has stabilized.But attacks will continue.It is all out war(short of direct military confrontation for now) West against Russia(and rest of the BRICS and their allies).Such loss of value in such short time has absolutely nothing to do with sanctions or slow economy(Russian economy actually is moving ahead) and everything to do with market manupulation.LIBOR/FX/gold &silver ...every single market is rigged and manupulated by Western financial institutions.It is easy to hurt any currency when have control over the platforms and printing press.Btw 5th column in Russia is trying to create a panic-they spread the rumor Sberbank(one of the biggest banks in Russia) will stop servicing its own debit/credit issued cards.Interesting info-more than 2 years ago in september 2012 was a message Russian people and bussines need to prepare for a rate from 50-70 rubles per USD in the future.



I totally agree with you, this is indeed the final struggle to keep themselves as the hegemon of the world and a unipolar world order. They can see where things are going with the BRICS and how the tide is slowly changing and its just a matter of time until the dollar is no longer the main global currency, in which case it will be a US collapse since they depend on that to keep living beyond their means as they have being doing until now.

The US will do whatever it takes to keep the status quo, they are going to get very nasty. They know that they need to take down / neutralize Russia and China. Russia is the softer, weaker target, so they start with Russia. If they succeed with Russia, China is next and it will be a nasty fight. That's why I keep telling the chinese here that if China is smart, they really need to give serious financial help to Russia without conditions, but most of them don't get it and only think about making profit from that.

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## Carlosa

Galad said:


> For now sitiation has stabilized.But attacks will continue.It is all out war(short of direct military confrontation for now) West against Russia(and rest of the BRICS and their allies).Such loss of value in such short time has absolutely nothing to do with sanctions or slow economy(Russian economy actually is moving ahead) and everything to do with market manupulation.LIBOR/FX/gold &silver ...every single market is rigged and manupulated by Western financial institutions.It is easy to hurt any currency when have control over the platforms and printing press.Btw 5th column in Russia is trying to create a panic-they spread the rumor Sberbank(one of the biggest banks in Russia) will stop servicing its own debit/credit issued cards.Interesting info-more than 2 years ago in september 2012 was a message Russian people and bussines need to prepare for a rate from 50-70 rubles per USD in the future.



Do you think Putin will eventually take on the 5th column and hit them hard? Are they powerful enough to possibly beat Putin?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> I totally agree with you, this is indeed the final struggle to keep themselves as the hegemon of the world and a unipolar world order. They can see where things are going with the BRICS and how the tide is slowly changing and its just a matter of time until the dollar is no longer the main global currency, in which case it will be a US collapse since they depend on that to keep living beyond their means as they have being doing until now.
> 
> The US will do whatever it takes to keep the status quo, they are going to get very nasty. They know that they need to take down / neutralize Russia and China. Russia is the softer, weaker target, so they start with Russia. If they succeed with Russia, China is next and it will be a nasty fight. That's why I keep telling the chinese here that if China is smart, they really need to give serious financial help to Russia without conditions, but most of them don't get it and only think about making profit from that.



The only way to help Russia is to build the Eurasian HSR.

The full economic integration between Russia and China will help Russia to get rid of the oil economy.

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## Götterdämmerung

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The only way to help Russia is to build the Eurasian HSR.
> 
> The full economic integration between Russia and China will help Russia to get rid of the oil economy.



We need an ad hoc solution now. If Putin fails in the next few months, then good night China.



Carlosa said:


> Do you think Putin will eventually take on the 5th column and hit them hard? Are they powerful enough to possibly beat Putin?



I think Putin will wait a few more weeks. He has to be 100% sure that the absolute majority is fed up with the pro-transatlantic bunch. Once that situation arrives, the fifth colum will be once and forever be out of Russia.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Götterdämmerung said:


> We need an ad hoc solution now. If Putin fails in the next few months, then good night China.



Don't worry, Putin will last for few years for sure.

And just in few days ago, Li Keqiang and Medvedev had a meeting to discuss about the Eurasian HSR project.

And this project is going to massive, and it is surely going to revive Russia's manufacturing base.

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## welcomeJason

NiceGuy said:


> We have enough anti-ship missile to sink all of ur cheap copied warship. That why we confidently pointed the Gun to ur forces in our last trip to Gac Ma (JS reef)


What easy you start a war,then what easy you lost it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Götterdämmerung said:


> I think Putin will wait a few more weeks. He has to be 100% sure that the absolute majority is fed up with the pro-transatlantic bunch. Once that situation arrives, the fifth colum will be once and forever be out of Russia.



Yeah, right now it is the perfect time to weed out the western fifth column, since the mass public is now at rage with the West.

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## welcomeJason

Viet said:


> yes, yahoo we are as poor as africa according to chinese clowns here. pls feel and laugh. AND yes, according to some reports, chinese are mostly retards.
> random image of 5 vietnamese and 1 south korean
> View attachment 177055
> 
> 
> 
> Customs Union, Vietnam agree on provisions of free trade agreement | Russia & India Report


koreans did a good job! Congratulations.

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## Lure

TaiShang said:


> *China needs clear strategy to help Russia*
> Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-17
> 
> With oil prices sinking and the ruble falling in value, Russia is experiencing the gravest economic crisis since the turn of the century. After its value crashed for two days running, the ruble has depreciated over 50 percent against the US dollar so far this year to become the worst performing global currency. At present, there seems to be no way to bail it out, and what will happen to the Russian economy is difficult to predict.
> 
> *Some analysts are comparing Russia's current situation with the eve of the Soviet Union's dissolution, when oil prices were also at a low ebb. Some speculate that the deepening economic crisis will impose new challenges to Russian President Vladimir Putin's tenure, forcing him to apply a defensive strategy. But there are also some concerns about him becoming more aggressive.*
> 
> This speculation raises a question: Is Russia's economy worse now than the time when the Soviet Union collapsed?
> 
> *Compared with 23 years ago, Russia's manufacturing capacity and agricultural production have not greatly improved, and it's much diminished strength has not left much room to maneuver. What's more, Moscow now faces Western sanctions and there is deep antagonism between Moscow and Washington.*
> 
> *But Russian society is much more united than before. *Putin retains high approval ratings among the Russian public, who learned heavy lessons after the collapse and harbor no delusions toward the West.
> 
> *Russia's foreign exchange reserves still boast about $400 billion, which means, unlike immediately following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the well-being of the Russian people will not be severely impacted in the short term*. Although the threat of collapse is still far away, Russia will go through a long-running winter instead of a temporary storm.
> 
> *China has become a significant factor that determines Russia's strategic environment. Seeking China's support is one of Russia's most realistic options.*
> 
> While it might play a key role, China has to keep a clear mind when giving a helping hand to Russia. *China-Russia cooperation is no longer ideology-based but driven by common interests. Although it has the capability to offer help to Russia at critical moments, China does not have to act in a proactive manner. *
> 
> Any facilitation and aid must be given with the request of Moscow through the normal channels of country-to-country exchanges. This will reduce Moscow's misunderstandings to the minimum.
> 
> This crisis will probably urge Russia to recalibrate some of its national strategies. But it is by no means a fact that Russia will draw closer to China because of this. With many uncertainties, China also faces challenges about how to lead its relationship with Russia to a reciprocal end.
> 
> *Russia is at a crossroads, and the direction it chooses will impact world politics. China's stance is clear, and it does not want Russia to collapse.
> 
> ***
> *
> What realistic options does China have to assist Russia in one of its deepest economic crises that is the result of a geopolitical stand-off with the West (US)?
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon , @Nihonjin1051 , @Keel , @tranquilium , @Edison Chen , @Raphael , @xunzi , @cirr , @ChineseTiger1986 , @terranMarine @yusheng , @Ruisheng , @wanglaokan , @JSCh _at al_.



Russia has minimal economic problems. There is no shortage in terms of commodities and products in Russia today. And it's highly unlikely. I mean despite the economic sanctions, Russia will be able to find products and commodities that it needs from other countries. They will definitely not be like Iran. There were no car parts in Iran due to economic sanctions and the repairers were actually trying to produce their own car parts. Such an effect won't be likely happen in Russia.

However there will be great financial problems. First of all the stock market is collapsing. If China wants to help Russia, Chinese fund managers can actually invest in Russian stock markets. I guess around 15% Chinese ownership in Russian Stock Markets would make it highly unlikely to collapse. It might also be profitable for Chinese, if you believe in performance of Russian companies.

Second problem will be the sharp drops in realty prices. Chinese Real Estate Developers should make huge investments to real estate projects in Russia. 

However most probably China will make this investments in US dollars. Making these investments in US dollars might also effect China. Remember you don't print the US dollar. So if you convince Russians to show more interest in yuan and accept a portion (a considerable portion I might add) in terms of yuan, then this will be a long term solution

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## welcomeJason

*RMB WOULD BE A CHOICE.*​

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## ChineseTiger1986

It would better if the HSR grid within the European part of Russia is completed before the World Cup 2018.

Since the HSR will ease the transportation method for the football players to travel between the Russian cities.

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## BuddhaPalm

Maybe China and Russia can merge into one federal entity.


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## Carlosa

Götterdämmerung said:


> We need an ad hoc solution now. If Putin fails in the next few months, then good night China.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Putin will wait a few more weeks. He has to be 100% sure that the absolute majority is fed up with the pro-transatlantic bunch. Once that situation arrives, the fifth colum will be once and forever be out of Russia.



You got ahead of me, I was going to say the same thing to @ChineseTiger1986 Russia needs help now, no in years, if the evangelical neocons (God, I love that label) are able to break the Russians, then we are all in deep shit and the chinese can be sure that they are next in line.

I can't wait to see Putin smashing the fifth column.

*To the Chinese members:*
Whats going on with Russia is serious stuff and it has tremendous implications for China. The world hegemon was distracted for 10 years while busy playing fireworks in Iraq and Afghanistan, that's over now and they are turning to take care of the real threats, Russia and China. Russia first, if they make it there, you are next.

Don't underestimate what they are capable of doing and don't over estimate yourself. Right now, there is only one superpower and its USA and if the time comes for them to go after you, they are going to hit you with everything they got and they do have a lot. They are going to be super nasty. These people are crazy nuts and will not stop at anything in order to achieve their objectives.

Forget about Vietnam vs China, forget about the south china sea, Senkakus / Diayous or whatever, that's all peanuts. The real stakes are being played in Ukraine / Russia right now and that will decide the next steps. If Russia prevails, they are actually saving your arse by default. If they lose, you are next (and alone) and if you think they are going to wait 10 more years to let you gather strength, you better think again and keep the eye on the ball because these guys are not playing, they are dead serious and they are very clear about what they need to do and they know they have limited time.

No, I'm not panicking, being crazy or being delusional, I'm very clear about the big picture playing there; most people don't realize how serious the situation is and how high the stakes are.

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## BuddhaPalm

^ We cannot forget about Vietnam. They are our worse enemy! Must attack them and damage them brutally first!

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## Huaren

Carlosa said:


> You got ahead of me, I was going to say the same thing to @ChineseTiger1986 Russia needs help now, no in years, if the evangelical neocons (God, I love that label) are able to break the Russians, then we are all in deep shit and the chinese can be sure that they are next in line.
> 
> I can't wait to see Putin smashing the fifth column.
> 
> *To the Chinese members:*
> Whats going on with Russia is serious stuff and it has tremendous implications for China. The world hegemon was distracted for 10 years while busy playing fireworks in Iraq and Afghanistan, that's over now and they are turning to take care of the real threats, Russia and China. Russia first, if they make it there, you are next.
> 
> Don't underestimate what they are capable of doing and don't over estimate yourself. Right now, there is only one superpower and its USA and if the time comes for them to go after you, they are going to hit you with everything they got and they do have a lot. They are going to be super nasty. These people are crazy nuts and will not stop at anything in order to achieve their objectives.
> 
> Forget about Vietnam vs China, forget about the south china sea, Senkakus / Diayous or whatever, that's all peanuts. The real stakes are being played in Ukraine / Russia right now and that will decide the next steps. If Russia prevails, they are actually saving your arse by default. If they lose, you are next (and alone) and if you think they are going to wait 10 more years to let you gather strength, you better think again and keep the eye on the ball because these guys are not playing, they are dead serious and they are very clear about what they need to do and they know they have limited time.
> 
> No, I'm not panicking, being crazy or being delusional, I'm very clear about the big picture playing there; most people don't realize how serious the situation is and how high the stakes are.



southeast china sea and diaoyu island(s) will ever be the core strategic interest of China as long as chinese are capable to ensure national security/interest , calling those as "peanuts" means either your are fooling others or being fooled by others / yourself.

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## Carlosa

BuddhaPalm said:


> ^ We cannot forget about Vietnam. They are our worse enemy! Must attack them and damage them brutally first!



You need a reality check buddy.



Huaren said:


> southeast china sea and diaoyu island(s) will ever be the core strategic interest of China as long as chinese are capable to ensure national security/interest , calling those as "peanuts" means either your are fooling others or being fooled by others / yourself.



They are peanuts in comparison to what its really playing now with Russia and the implications of that for china. I'm just talking as a matter of priorities and anyway, good luck if you think that you can really take over those areas without a real war with USA and its allies. They've been easy on you until now, but don't bet on that for much longer. Just my take.


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## Viet

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The only way to help Russia is to build the Eurasian HSR.
> 
> The full economic integration between Russia and China will help Russia to get rid of the oil economy.


BRAVO if you want to push russia faster down the drain, that just let them build HSR.
in case you don´t know, the building of the transibirian railway was so expensive and resources consuming, and one of the reasons that crippled the USSR economy.

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## Huaren

Carlosa said:


> You need a reality check buddy.
> 
> They are peanuts in comparison to what its really playing now with Russia and the implications of that for china. I'm just talking as a matter of priorities and anyway, good luck if you think that you can really take over those areas without a real war with USA and its allies. They've been easy on you until now, but don't bet on that for much longer. Just my take.



Seriously do you really see me (or any chinese members) ever believe to retake those areas without a real war with USA and its allies/lackies? Havent you seen that China is continuing building up capabilities for decades to prepare for the scenario and moving foward at the same time. In fact nobody has expected any "luck" to begin with, those you are calling "peanuts" are the doorsteps of our country, as comparison to China they are at least just as important as crimea/eastern ukraine to Russia.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> You got ahead of me, I was going to say the same thing to @ChineseTiger1986 Russia needs help now, no in years, if the evangelical neocons (God, I love that label) are able to break the Russians, then we are all in deep shit and the chinese can be sure that they are next in line.
> 
> I can't wait to see Putin smashing the fifth column.
> 
> *To the Chinese members:*
> Whats going on with Russia is serious stuff and it has tremendous implications for China. The world hegemon was distracted for 10 years while busy playing fireworks in Iraq and Afghanistan, that's over now and they are turning to take care of the real threats, Russia and China. Russia first, if they make it there, you are next.
> 
> Don't underestimate what they are capable of doing and don't over estimate yourself. Right now, there is only one superpower and its USA and if the time comes for them to go after you, they are going to hit you with everything they got and they do have a lot. They are going to be super nasty. These people are crazy nuts and will not stop at anything in order to achieve their objectives.
> 
> Forget about Vietnam vs China, forget about the south china sea, Senkakus / Diayous or whatever, that's all peanuts. The real stakes are being played in Ukraine / Russia right now and that will decide the next steps. If Russia prevails, they are actually saving your arse by default. If they lose, you are next (and alone) and if you think they are going to wait 10 more years to let you gather strength, you better think again and keep the eye on the ball because these guys are not playing, they are dead serious and they are very clear about what they need to do and they know they have limited time.
> 
> No, I'm not panicking, being crazy or being delusional, I'm very clear about the big picture playing there; most people don't realize how serious the situation is and how high the stakes are.



Sure, Russia has helped us to distract the US and bought us more time to become stronger in both economy and military.

This is how your typical drama with the deuteragonist heping the protagonist to turn the table against the stronger antagonist.

According to our British Anglo-Saxon friend Mike2000, Russia has committed the unforgivable sin in their eyes because of buying more time to let China to become stronger than ever.

It is for sure that they are planning to destroy us one by one, but now it is Russia's turn, then it would be followed by China.



Viet said:


> BRAVO if you want to push russia faster down the drain, that just let them build HSR.
> in case you don´t know, the building of the transibirian railway was so expensive and resources consuming, and one of the reasons that crippled the USSR economy.



Are you kidding me?

We will provide the technology and the assistance.

The cost will be below the average, and this will only vitalize the import/export between the Eurasian nations.

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sure, Russia has helped us to distract the US and bought us more time to become stronger in both economy and military.
> 
> This is how your typical drama with the deuteragonist heping the protagonist to turn the table against the stronger antagonist.
> 
> According to our British Anglo-Saxon friend Mike2000, Russia has committed the unforgivable sin in their eyes because of buying more time to let China to become stronger than ever.
> 
> It is for sure that they are planning to destroy us one by one, but now it is Russia's turn, then it would be followed by China..



You are the only one that really gets the big picture from the chinese members here, some get it partially, most are too caught up in the regional tribal thing to see it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> You are the only one that really gets the big picture from the chinese members here, some get it partially, most are too caught up in the regional tribal thing to see it.



I am also surprised by your perception on the world geopolitics.

BTW, China will not let Russia to fall, since we also need them to assist us to build up the new banking system in the world.

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## Carlosa

Huaren said:


> Seriously do you really see me (or any chinese members) ever believe to retake those areas without a real war with USA and its allies/lackies? Havent you seen that China is continuing building up capabilities for decades to prepare for the scenario and moving foward at the same time. In fact nobody has expected any "luck" to begin with, those you are calling "peanuts" are the doorsteps of our country, as comparison to China they are at least just as important as crimea/eastern ukraine to Russia.



Yes, I see the rearming that china is doing, but have you noticed that, still, they are the number one military power never the less and that will not change any time soon. 

Have you noticed that the americans are on constant war for how many years now? That's real training on the job, warfare is natural for them; how much warfare experience china have? China is just now starting to get serious about training. They are miles ahead of you. A I said before, don't underestimate them and don't overestimate yourself.

Anyway, these subjects are really peripheral, this is not the main argument here, lets not waste time on this.


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## Jit

it is great to talk big. Don't forget China is and has to support sanctions against Russia. If China takes false steps they will lose NA and European markets. Bye bye economic strength. Already having burnt $6T building ghost cities that nobody can use, already dealing with inflated local regional bank mistatements about 'preferential' cpc loans that will never come back now imagine if Shanghai container exports fall by even 30%! Dead in the watr is what China be if that happens. With such risk impact, I very much doubt China will or can do anything substantial for Russia.

Putin brought this on Russia - nobody shares his demented designs for novurussia. He will collapse soon as there are other generals waiting their turn.

OPEC under Saudi drive is not going to cut exports - they want to make the threats from NA shale to collapse. In the process, as they drive the cost of oil to under $60/bbl (Shale oil breakeven is >$70) investment in shale development has ceased in the US. Now imagine Russia - where breakeven is much higher (close to $100!) - they are losing 40% on every bbl they ship but cannot stop shipping because that is is the only cash flow they have.

Iran has made its peace with America and shipping. With the Cuba overture, Venezuela is on the wings to make peace and push more oil into US plus REFINED capacity! yesterday Venezuela complimented Obama for his Cuba move and is 'looking forward' to better ties!

Putin's dreams of creating a new Russia, dreams of re-enacting the missile crisis in the reverse - all that have been dashed to pieces.

And everybody who watched his 3 hour whining were convinced he was either drunk or something worse - turns out he was just recovering from a stroke.

The best and only option open to China is to use its considerable power and influence to advise and press Russia to focus on development and forget about global geo plays.

China's focus in the last two decades on economic development is a great model for Putin to follow. Russia has wonderful high tech resaerchers which China needs and that would be a mutual deal that will be good for them two as well as rest of the world.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> Yes, I see the rearming that china is doing, but have you noticed that, still, they are the number one military power never the less and that will not change any time soon.
> 
> Have you noticed that the americans are on constant war for how many years now? That's real training on the job, warfare is natural for them; how much warfare experience china have? China is just now starting to get serious about training. They are miles ahead of you. A I said before, don't underestimate them and don't overestimate yourself.
> 
> Anyway, these subjects are really peripheral, this is not the main argument here, lets not waste time on this.



About the island dispute with the neighbors, it is not that we are so stingy to fight over these tiny islands, but it is about our territorial sovereignty.

If we abandon the territorial sovereignty on those islands, then this means that we could also abandon our territorial sovereignty on Xinjiang and Tibet. This will create a domino effect.

Same for Russia here, since they already have a such vast territory, and do you really think that they really care about those disputed islands with Japan? They also only do care about their territorial sovereignty on the grand picture.

As for those islands, we can accept the status quo and let them to have a share on the resources over there, but the fifth column of those nations should stop doing their master's bidding by repeatedly provoking China's overall territorial sovereignty.

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am also surprised by your perception on the world geopolitics.
> 
> BTW, China will not let Russia to fall, since we also need them to assist us to build up the new banking system in the world.



Ha ha, thank you. I've been around for a while and I do spend time reading and analyzing what's going on in the world. The china vs vietnam thing is actually a local thing and the stakes are not that big in the end, sure we feel strong about it and we can get aggressive, right? But the real thing going on now is far bigger than that and it will affect everything and everybody, so we need to keep the eye on the ball. 

I lived in USA for many years, I see how the system works and what it does to people and the type of society that they try to create and I don't like that one bit. They are gradually doing the same in Europe and give them a free reign and they will impose that system in the whole world. I definitely don't want to see that.

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## MarkusS

Face reality. The west and china share the greatest interests with each other. Russia has nothing to offer. Its market is small. But what it has is rescources. Lets weaken them combined and simply take it for free.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> Ha ha, thank you. I've been around for a while and I do spend time reading and analyzing what's going on in the world. The china vs vietnam thing is actually a local thing and the stakes are not that big in the end, sure we feel strong about it and we can get aggressive, right? But the real thing going on now is far bigger than that and it will affect everything and everybody, so we need to keep the eye on the ball.
> 
> I lived in USA for many years, I see how the system works and what it does to people and the type of society that they try to create and I don't like that one bit. They are gradually doing the same in Europe and give them a free reign and they will impose that system in the whole world. I definitely don't want to see that.



Obama has tried to bring Russia to his side during his first term, so he used to cozy up with Putin, but he eventually has failed to divide Russia and China.

And I am sure that Hillary and the neocons will be equally hostile to both Russia and China.

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> About the island dispute with the neighbors, it is not that we are so stingy to fight over these tiny islands, but it is about our territorial sovereignty.
> 
> If we abandon the territorial sovereignty on those islands, then this means that we could also abandon our territorial sovereignty on Xinjiang and Tibet. This will create a domino effect.
> 
> Same for Russia here, since they already have a such vast territory, and do you really think that they really care about those disputed islands with Japan? They also only do care about their territorial sovereignty on the grand picture.
> 
> As for those islands, we can accept the status quo and let them to have a share on the resources over there, but the fifth column of those nations should stop doing their master's biding by repeatedly provoking China's overall territorial sovereignty.



I understand your points, but you also have to see the points of the other side, everybody has the same feeling of sovereignty and all the emotions involved into that. I understand very well why china is doing what is doing and its actually just following the path that big powers usually follow, but have to also understand that there is a price to pay for that, mainly in terms of how you get perceived by the rest of the world. It would be nice for a new big power to change the way it deals with weaker countries and how it uses its power. Maybe its too idealistic to see it, but it would be nice. I believe that being fair and nice will get you more in the end.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> I understand your points, but you also have to see the points of the other side, everybody has the same feeling of sovereignty and all the emotions involved into that. I understand very well why china is doing what is doing and its actually just following the path that big powers usually follow, but have to also understand that there is a price to pay for that, mainly in terms of how you get perceived by the rest of the world. It would be nice for a new big power to change the way it deals with weaker countries and how it uses its power. Maybe its too idealistic to see it, but it would be nice. I believe that being fair and nice will get you more in the end.



We will solve the island dispute with our neighbors via the political negotiation.

As long as we can keep our main territorial sovereignty intact, it is not worthy to fight against anyone through a physical war.

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Obama has tried to bring Russia to his side during his first term, so he used to cozy up with Putin, but he eventually has failed to divide Russia and China.
> 
> And I am sure that Hillary and Neocons will be equally hostile to both Russia and China.



Hillary and the Neocons are extremely dangerous and they know they have limited time, the free ride is over man. They are going for it now and either they get stopped or is bad news for everybody.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> We will solve the island dispute with our neighbors via the political negotiation.
> 
> As long as we can keep our main territorial sovereignty intact, it is not worthy to fight against anyone through a physical war.



Resolving disputes in a fair manner keeps everybody happy and friendly. If you turn your friends into enemies and make people hate you, how is that to your benefit in the future? You never know how they can get back at you in the future or how they can cooperate with your enemies. Live and let live, there is plenty of fish in the water for everybody.

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## Raphael

MarkusS said:


> Face reality. The west and china share the greatest interests with each other. Russia has nothing to offer. Its market is small. But what it has is rescources. Lets weaken them combined and simply take it for free.



Lol, you act as if we were born yesterday. If Russia goes down, the West's crosshairs will be immediately re-directed towards China. Even if that is not Europe's intention, it is certainly the US', a fact that you blithely ignore even when many other members have brought it to your attention.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> Hillary and the Neocons are extremely dangerous and they know they have limited time, the free ride is over man. They are going for it now and either they get stopped or is bad news for everybody.



I am pretty sure that they will try to ignite the powder keg via the disputed islands around China.

China has no real motive to start a war since we want to keep developing our economy and technology, but the neocons won't allow us to keep doing this.

The best way to disrupt China's development is to drag China into an endless war by igniting the powder keg.

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Obama has tried to bring Russia to his side during his first term, so he used to cozy up with Putin, but he eventually has failed to divide Russia and China..



The simple truth is that Putin is way smarter than Obama (Obama is good at talking but not much else and he doesn't have balls) and he can see what the americans are up to and they've been seeing that for quite a few years, Actually, Putin was too nice for too long, he was also bidding for time, same as china now, but that usually never works, they can see it and they will hit you before you are too powerful. Actually, the americans have bad luck that they have to deal with Putin, once Putin is clear about the situation, he will be the most implacable enemy and he will prevail in the end and the Russian people are that way too as they have demonstrated in the past.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am pretty sure that they will try to ignite the powder keg via the disputed islands around China.
> 
> China has no real motive to start a war since we want to keep developing our economy and technology, but the neocons won't allow us to keep doing this.
> 
> The best way to disrupt China's development is to drag China into an endless war by igniting the powder keg.



Yes, and they will use their economic levers to destroy the chinese economy same as they are doing with Russia now. They have a full bag of tricks.



Raphael said:


> Lol, you act as if we were born yesterday. If Russia goes down, the West's crosshairs will be immediately re-directed towards China. Even if that is not Europe's intention, it is certainly the US', a fact that you blithely ignore even when many other members have brought it to your attention.



100% correct man.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> The simple truth is that Putin is way smarter than Obama (Obama is good at talking but not much else and he doesn't have balls) and he can see what the americans are up to and they've been seeing that for quite a few years, Actually, Putin was too nice for too long, he was also bidding for time, same as china now, but that usually never works, they can see it and they will hit you before you are too powerful. Actually, the americans have bad luck that they have to deal with Putin, once Putin is clear bout the situation, he will be the most implacable enemy and he will prevail in the end and the Russian people are that way too as they have demonstrated in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and they will use their economic levers to destroy the chinese economy same as they are doing with Russia now. They have a full bag of tricks.



Sure, Putin knows that even he helps the US to defeat China. After that, they will still double cross him.

At least China has tried to break the US monopoly by creating a win-win game for everybody, whereas Russia can also benefit a lot from this new world order.

Also, China treats Russia as an equal partner, whereas the US treats everybody else as their slaves or junior partners.

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## Carlosa

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sure, Putin knows that even he helps the US to defeat China. After that, they will still double cross him.
> 
> At least China has tried to break the US monopoly by creating a win-win game for everybody, whereas Russia can also benefit a lot from this new world order.
> 
> Also, China treats Russia as an equal partner, whereas the US treats everybody else as their slaves or junior partners.



They always backstab almost everybody, once they don't need you anymore, off you go. They have their favorite subjects that they keep happy as long as they understand what their place is and they get an small share of the spoils, number one in that category: UK.

Ok, I'm going to sleep, we continue tomorrow.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Carlosa said:


> They always backstab almost everybody, once they don't need you anymore, off you go. They have their favorite subjects that they keep happy as long as they understand what their place is and they get an small share of the spoils, number one in that category: UK.
> 
> Ok, I'm going to sleep, we continue tomorrow.



China's world integration on the HSR grid systems will be the new room for the growth of the world economy.

Not only the world will find more room to grow from this new economic model, it will also help to diversify the portfolio of the transportation models.

This will push both aerospace and shipbuilding to reform and to re-innovate their current technology.

As for Boeing, this will push them to re-innovate and to focus on the more advanced space airplane instead of being complacent with their current monopolized market share.



Raphael said:


> Lol, you act as if we were born yesterday. If Russia goes down, the West's crosshairs will be immediately re-directed towards China. Even if that is not Europe's intention, it is certainly the US', a fact that you blithely ignore even when many other members have brought it to your attention.



Russia is not only crucial for China to achieve the new banking systems, but also crucial for China to achieve the world HSR grid systems.

Meanwhile, with the rise of China's aerospace industry, this will not only force Boeing to face the indirect competition from China's HSR, but also to face the direct competition from China's aerospace industry.

The competition is always good, only with the competition, people will start to reform and to re-innovate the technologies.

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## MarkusS

Raphael said:


> Lol, you act as if we were born yesterday. If Russia goes down, the West's crosshairs will be immediately re-directed towards China. Even if that is not Europe's intention, it is certainly the US', a fact that you blithely ignore even when many other members have brought it to your attention.



thats wrong. Face reality. We see china as equal. Our economies are combined. We rule the world. What is Russia compared to the West and China ? Nothing.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's world integration on the HSR grid systems will be the new room for the growth of the world economy.
> 
> Not only the world will find more room to grow from this new economic model, it will also help to diversify the portfolio of the transportation models.
> 
> This will push both aerospace and shipbuilding to reform and to re-innovate their current technology.
> 
> As for Boeing, this will push them to re-innovate and to focus on the more advanced space airplane instead of being complacent with their current monopolized market share.
> 
> 
> 
> Russia is not only crucial for China to achieve the new banking systems, but also crucial for China to achieve the world HSR grid systems.
> 
> Meanwhile, with the rise of China's aerospace industry, this will not only force Boeing to face the indirect competition from China's HSR, but also to face the direct competition from China's aerospace industry.
> 
> The competition is always good, only with the competition, people will start to reform and to re-innovate the technologies.



You do realize that boeing is only nr. 2 in the world market of airplanes? Why does china want to be in competition with nr. 2? Too afraid to play with the world market leader airbus?


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> thats wrong. Face reality. We see china as equal. Our economies are combined. We rule the world. What is Russia compared to the West and China ? Nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that boeing is only nr. 2 in the world market of airplanes? Why does china want to be in competition with nr. 2? Too afraid to play with the world market leader airbus?



Why not? We have both money and technology, also with a huge domestic market.

BTW, Boeing right now is number one, as Airbus hasn't mastered the critical jet engine technology, which is controlled by the US/UK inner circle.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Why not? We have both money and technology, also with a huge domestic market.
> 
> BTW, Boeing right now is number one, as Airbus hasn't mastered the critical jet engine technology, which is controlled by the US/UK inner circle.



you should look at sales, orders and market share which Airbus leads.

as for the jet engine technology...lol

you do realize that Airbus is a european corporation which the UK happens to be one of the leading shareholders? Your argument is baseless, as is your antiamericanism.


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> you should look at sales, orders and market share which Airbus leads.
> 
> as for the jet engine technology...lol
> 
> you do realize that Airbus is a european corporation which the UK happens to be one of the leading shareholders? Your argument is baseless, as is your antiamericanism.



The UK is closer to the US than they are to other European nations.

France/Germany/Italy have no chance to compete against the Anglo-Saxon inner circle for the turbofan engine technology.

As long as the UK is still there, Airbus has no chance to compete against Boeing for the aerospace dominance.

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## 55100864

@Carlosa
I find your biases and hypocrisy quite amusing. I know your are anti-china and pro Russia, on one hand, you dream about drag the USA into SCS to crash the Chinese imperialism in order to save your beloved Vietnam, a nation that is gradually becoming an US lackey. On the other hand, you want China to unconditionally help your beloved Russia, and keep badmouthing how despicable we Chinese are taking advantage of Russia's misery. You must think the CCP are all retarded do you? Care to explain to me why is that a mutual beneficial relationship between China and Russia become China sucking Russian blood?

We fully understand what's going on around global, you keep talking about saving Russia is saving ourselves, that's right, you will find no Chinese on this forum disagree with that, but the Russian should also know that helping China is also helping themselves, no?? In addition, i think Russia is not as miserable as many people think, the west now is like killing 100 enemies by sacrificing 80 own men, the EU is in decline and will sleep with anyone who can give them a little bit comfort, the US is also panicking and running out of ideas, you can see from their rather childish ranting in recent years, you never see US behave like this. So anyway, how about a deep and comprehensive cooperation between China and Russia? and here my thought on the grand Chinese Marshall plan to counter strike the west.

Most important, share of intel and experiences. Russia has accumulated extensive intel on the US military (submarine, nuclear arsenals, CIA deployment，etc...) we also have extremely advanced intel gathering capabilities and experiences
China should launch massive( i mean really MASSIVE) investment in Russia to help them rebuild their industries and finance, but this can not happen without enough protection from Russia government and a bold reform of their industry structure. They seriously need to get rid of the their insecurity toward China, and execute all the xenophobic neo nazi punks. We have no intention to invade Siberia，seriously, they outsourced all of their infrastructure to the turks, but not China??? With our unprecedented industry might, we can turn the bleak Sino Russia border into a dynamic economic zone in 5 years.
We can help Russia to expand their navy base in Vladivostok_, _Russia may find difficult funding their new navy vessels, but we can leverage their pressure from Pacific by frequently conducting joint exercise near Kuril Islands.
Politically, we obovisely have more say in BRICS, but to be honest, BRICS is a joke at least for now, Brazil is a useless shithole country, the country of the future and will always be, US has huge influence in S America, but we have enough influence to make Brazil neutral，other wise they can say bye bye to growth, same as India, actually, Russia can still sucking Indian blood. In the SCO block, Russia can give China more access to central Asia politics while they still have some influence in that region, they will lose that remained influence sooner or late, it's much more easier to build the land based new silk road than the maritime silk road, they better give it to china than to the west. We can also cooperate on the Arctic Ocean issues.
Technology? not so much, i'm tired about some clueless people talking about we will sucking up all the Russian technologies, there is nothing Russia has that we desperately desires, we actually have far better electronics( AEWC，avionics，data-link) we can help Russia in these fields. Russian have better missile, better submarine, better jet engine，but we don't need it, because our jet engine R&D projects had chosen a completely different technological path from Russia, and will reach maturity soon. but we certainly can cooperate on space, fusion reactor etc.....
Energy security, no need to say.....!
We will NOT give up the ECS and SCS claim, our maneuver in these disputes areas can easily drive the US attentions away from Russia. Maybe you should ask your beloved Vietnam to see the bigger picture, we will have the full control over SCS sooner or later, by that time, the maritime silk road will became a reality, it like releasing a caged dragon, which would means the game over of US hegemony，sound？？let face the reality here, what can vietnam get even we gift the whole SCS to her? The SCS in Vietnam's hand is just SCS, a swimming pool, but the SCS in our hand would be a nightmare for the west.

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## TaiShang

*Is US-NATO Preparing to Wage War on Russia?*
By Prof Michel Chossudovsky

Is US-NATO Preparing to Wage War on Russia? The Wales NATO Summit in September has set the stage.

Several military initiatives directed against the Russian Federation have been launched in the last few months including the conduct of war games in Eastern Europe, military training and the deployment of special forces in Ukraine.

These military initiatives are led in coordination with media propaganda and a program of “economic terrorism” consisting of disruptive economic sanctions, the freeze of monetary and trade transactions, the fraudulent manipulation of the oil and currency markets, etc. The media campaign consists in presenting war as a humanitarian undertaking.

The endgame is to weaken the Russian Federation, undermine its institutions, impoverish its population.

Meanwhile, the US Congress has passed enabling legislation which provides a de facto green light to president Obama to declare war on Russia.


Reports have also confirmed that Washington is contemplating “regime change” in the Russian Federation with a view to installing a more compliant government in the Kremlin.

“We see the tragic consequences of the so-called color revolutions and ordeals survived by the peoples of the states that faced these irresponsible experiments of covert and sometimes even… overt interference into their lives…

This is a lesson and warning for us and we will do everything possible to prevent this from happening in Russia.” (quoted in Sputnik, November 20 2014)

Military threat combined with “economic warfare” are intended to create social and economic instability in the Russian Federation. Cyber warfare is also an instrument of intervention directed against an enemy’s communications systems.

The US-NATO military exercises conducted in recent months in Eastern Europe and the Baltic States were explicitly directed against Russia. According to Moscow, they consisted in *“increasing operation readiness”* as well the transfer of NATO “military infrastructure to the Russian borders”.

In mid-December,* General James Stavridis*, former commander of Nato in Europe called upon the Atlantic Alliance to”send arms and military advisers to Ukraine to help it fight Moscow-backed separatists.”

“I think we should provide significant military assistance to the Ukrainian military. I don’t think we should limit ourselves to, non-lethal aid. I think we should provide ammunition, fuel, logistics. I think cyber-assistance would be very significant and helpful, *as well as advice and potentially advisers.*

“I don’t think there needs to be huge numbers of Nato troops on the ground. The Ukrainian military can resist what’s happening, but they need some assistance in order to do that.” (quoted in the Guardian, December 14, 2014)

And on December 18th, President Barack Obama signed the *Ukraine Freedom Support Act* which allocates up to $350 million in military aid to Ukraine in support of its military campaign in Donbass.

In addition to the granting of military aid, the US military is directly involved in the process of military planning in close coordination with Ukraine’s Ministry Defense.

*Its Called “Defense Cooperation”*

While US involvement is officially limited to training, the sending in of special forces and support to Ukraine’s National Guard, mercenaries and private security operatives on contract the Pentagon and NATO have also been deployed within the ranks of the Ukraine military and National Guard in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine.

*US Military Advisers at Work*

In late November, the US State Department confirmed that it “will continue to send special teams to Ukraine to provide security assistance”, namely advising and military training.

As part of this program of security assistance, *Brig. Gen. John Hort*, chief of operations, U.S. Army Europe was dispatched to Kiev together with “his staff and members of the *U.S. Office of Defense Cooperation,* located at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv”, Ukraine,

participated in a Global Security Contingency Fund — Ukraine planning requirements meeting with Ukrainian National Guard officials, here, Dec. 8-9, 2014.

The purpose of the requirements meeting was *to identify Ukraine’s National Guard Unit organization, training readiness and unit end state conditions after training completion*. U.S. Army Europe, Ukraine defense officials share lessons learned





Brig. Gen. John Hort (at easel), with his staff and members of the U.S. Office of Defense Cooperation, Training Session at US embassy with representatives of the Ukraine Military and National Guard. Source US Army

*The Office of Defense Cooperation (ODC): Subsidiary of the Pentagon at the US Embassy in Kiev*

The Office of Defense Cooperation which operates out of the US Embassy in Kiev “works with the Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense to provide military equipment and training to support the modernization of Ukraine’s military.” Office of Defense Cooperation | Embassy of the United States Kyiv, Ukraine

US *Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt,* in liaison with Assistant Secretary of State *Victoria Nuland, *plays a key role in coordinating the activities of ODC-Ukraine. Defense officials at the US Embassy are in turn in liaison with the Pentagon. The activities of the ODC broadly defined consist in:


The deployment of US military personnel inside Ukraine;
Military training and advisory functions;
The sale and procurement of US weapons systems;
Support to Ukraine’s National Guard through a protocal agreement with California’s National Guard
*1. The deployment of US military personnel in Ukraine* is implemented under the so-called *Joint Contact Team Program-Ukraine (JCTP)*

The mission of the JCTP is “to deploy US military teams to Ukraine to acquaint the Ukrainian military with various aspects of western militaries.”

*2. The military training program* is implemented under the auspices of the* International Military Education and Training (IMET)*. Under this program, Ukraine military personnel are sent to the US for training.

*3. The sale and procurement of weapons* is under the auspices of *Foreign Military Sales/Foreign Military Financing (FMF)*

The FMF program assists the Ukrainian military in conducting defense reform *by providing funds for Ukraine to purchase US military equipment and services.* (Office of Defense Cooperation | Embassy of the United States Kyiv, Ukraine)

*4. Support to Ukraine’s National Guard* is implemented through *the California–Ukraine State Partnership Program (SPP).* While the SPP mandate is to “promote democracy, free market economies and military reform, in practice the SPP is used to channel support as well as special forces and military advisers to Ukraine’s (neo-Nazi) National Guard battalions in Donbass.





The National Guard Azov Battalion in East Ukraine integrated by neo-Nazi recruits.

Of significance, the SPP Mission is coordinated jointly by the US Ambassador to Ukraine and the Commander of U.S. European Command (EUROCOM) General Philip Breedlove based in Stuttgart, Germany.

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## TaiShang

northeast said:


> Let them solve it out.I'm sure russian wouldn't give a sh!t if we have a limited war with Vietnam.We are not allies.Don't be naive and have some confidence.Pathetic.What did they do when we had some conflict in SCS?nothing,They still sell their weapons to Vietnam.
> Russia is more like a fearless gangster,no need to bind ourselve with them.



On the contrary, I think Russia is the latest front where the China-US proxy war is fought. If Russia goes down, the US and the entire West, with all its media, NGOs and allies, will clamp on China.

Assisting Russia is in a way assisting China itself.

The amount of "expert" and troll anti China activity online and off-line is mind-boggling. How can China let go few of its true geopolitical friends?

Russia has indeed shown it is a good ally by offering vital support to President Assad -- that's one of the reasons that the US now attempts to punish for.

China and Russia have done a lot since President Xi assumed China's leadership; were all for nothing? Or for show?

China should definitely prove that it is not to let one of its key strategic allies being severely punished by the West although the ways and means of doing this, I agree, should be more subtle and behind the curtain.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Assisting Russia is in a way assisting China itself.



Exactly correct. 

The recent boost in Sino-Russian relations is to protect our own national interests.

Since we may be the next target for US sanctions.

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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Exactly correct.
> 
> The recent boost in Sino-Russian relations is to protect our own national interests.
> 
> Since we may be the next target for US sanctions.


You expect russia help us when we become target for US sanction？how？except continuing export their oil，they wouldn't and couldn't do nothing to help us .They haven't help us in SCS conflicts，is that right？You bunch of naive and coward guys make me laugh.WE DON'T NEED TO HIDE BEHIND THE ASSES OF RUSSIAN BEARS，and russian aren't your fathers.

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## Chinese-Dragon

northeast said:


> You expect russia help us when we become target for US sanction？how？except continuing export their oil，they wouldn't and couldn't do nothing to help us .They haven't help us in SCS conflicts，is that right？You bunch of naive and coward guys make me laugh.WE DON'T NEED TO HIDE BEHIND THE ASSES OF RUSSIAN BEARS，and russian aren't your fathers.



Russia has some of the largest oil and gas reserves in the world, and they will be carried over land pipeline. Not vulnerable to a sea blockade.

Russia will also accept Yuan in payment for this oil and gas.

Maybe you can sit on your hands while our oil/gas sea routes are vulnerable to US blockades, but the Chinese government will not.

Because they are not American lackeys like you.

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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Russia has some of the largest oil and gas reserves in the world, and they will be carried over land pipeline. Not vulnerable to a sea blockade.
> 
> Russia will also accept Yuan in payment for this oil and gas.
> 
> Maybe you can sit on your hands while our oil/gas sea routes are vulnerable to US blockades, but the Chinese government will not.


Yeah，that's exactly what I have say.It's always about profit，isn't it？You can't really trust on russians.Not that brother or friend bullsh!t.


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## Chinese-Dragon

northeast said:


> Yeah，that's exactly what I have say.It's always about profit，isn't it？You can't really trust on russians.Not that brother or friend bullsh!t.



People like you would prefer that we remain vulnerable to American naval blockades of our oil/gas sea routes.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Raphael said:


> I've seen a lot of concern trolling on western media sites about how the China-Russia relationship will never come to fruition: because of Siberia, Cold War Sino-Soviet split, Russian fears of being a "resource appendage", etc. The more numerous these paid shills become and the flakier their arguments get, the more desperate and fearful that US appears to be of the burgeoning China-Russia relationship.



Why do people perpetually equate all Western media as the the mouthpiece of the US?? Why if some western press say something about the Russia/China relationship you turn around and automatically say the US is "desperate and fearful". 

Talk about acting flaky. If you mean the "US Press" then f*cken say it. Don't pull this "West" sh*t.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Peter C said:


> Why do people perpetually equate all Western media as the the mouthpiece of the US?? Why if some western press say something about the Russia/China relationship you turn around and automatically say the US is "desperate and fearful".
> 
> Talk about acting flaky. If you mean the "US Press" then f*cken say it. Don't pull this "West" sh*t.



It all means the same thing, people are referring to the "US-led West".

But if it makes you feel better, I will specifically say "American" from now on, whenever possible.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Chinese-Dragon said:


> It all means the same thing, people are referring to the "US-led West".
> 
> But if it makes you feel better, I will specifically say "American" from now on, whenever possible.



It makes you sound like the "Muslims" vs the "Christians" thing that seems to be the usual fallback argument in every Middle East conversation here. If something goes bad the generic "it must be the Christians" is the answer. Just Weasel word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> People like you would prefer that we remain vulnerable to American naval blockades of our oil/gas sea routes.


But how could Russia do in this ?You mean if we don't pour our money to help russia this time,they would stop selling oil when next time US blockades of our oil sea route?holy crap,That's a blackmail.If that's true ，then maybe we shouldn't import oil from the beginning.

But it's just your delusion.In reality It's all about profit between China and Rusdia.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Peter C said:


> It makes you sound like the "Muslims" vs the "Christians" thing that seems to be the usual fallback argument in every Middle East conversation here. If something goes bad the generic "it must be the Christians" is the answer. Just Weasel word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I am an Atheist, I don't care about religious topics.

But like I said, if you want people to stop pointing at the West, and be more specific towards America, no doubt your wish will come true.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I am an Atheist, I don't care about religious topics.
> 
> But like I said, if you want people to stop pointing at the West, and be more specific towards America, no doubt your wish will come true.



I'm an atheist too. So what? It only makes conversations here harder when I have to tell people to stop pointing at religious stuff as an answer.


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## Chinese-Dragon

northeast said:


> But how could Russia do in this ?You mean if we don't pour our money to help russia this time,they would stop selling oil when next time US blockades of our oil sea route?holy crap,That's a blackmail.If that's true ，then maybe we shouldn't import oil from the beginning.
> 
> But it's just your delusion.In reality It's all about profit between China and Rusdia.



Go and petition the National government in Beijing to stop their cooperation with Russia then.

In fact, I'd love to see you come to Beijing and spew your usual anti-CPC propaganda.

Maybe you can run to the American embassy to save yourself.

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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Go and petition the National government in Beijing to stop their cooperation with Russia then.
> 
> In fact, I'd love to see you come to Beijing and spew your usual anti-CPC propaganda.
> 
> Maybe you can run to the American embassy to save yourself.


I'm not anti CPC，you fool.And I'm not against helping Russia if we can get profit from it.I'm just against that someone saying helping Russia is helping ourselves and great China-Russia friendship blah blah.Either they are being hypocritical or just really plain fools.


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## sahaliyan

northeast said:


> I'm not anti CPC，you fool.And I'm not against helping Russia if we can get profit from it.I'm just against that someone saying helping Russia is helping ourselves and great China-Russia friendship blah blah.Either they are being sacrificed


Well said,Russians are not our friends,and never will be one


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## Chinese-Dragon

northeast said:


> *I'm not anti CPC，you fool.*And I'm not against helping Russia if we can get profit from it.I'm just against that someone saying helping Russia is helping ourselves and great China-Russia friendship blah blah.Either they are being hypocritical or just really plain fools.



That's the impression I get from reading your posts.

Everything the CPC does, it's always you here crying about it.

Like I said, go petition the National government in Beijing, then go and run away and hide in the American embassy to save yourself.

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## East Lake

sahaliyan said:


> Well said,Russians are not our friends,and never will be one



I think it will be better if everyone was friends with each other. The Russians are good people and did at one point help China to build up.


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## TaiShang

northeast said:


> I'm not anti CPC，you fool.And I'm not against helping Russia if we can get profit from it.I'm just against that someone saying helping Russia is helping ourselves and great China-Russia friendship blah blah.Either they are being hypocritical or just really plain fools.



No body talks about a brotherhood that is rosy and all smooth here. I did not even use the word "help" but "assist" because I do not believe in one nation "helping" the other. So, before acting as the pragmatist of the century, get your terminology straight.

There is an inherent interest in every relationship, not just between nations. Hence, "assisting Russia is in a way assisting China itself" suggests a die-hard pragmatist approach, unlike your sentimental outburst. The reasons have been repeated over and over, from Yuan's internationalization (given that Russia is a major natural resources exporter and you would not anticipate Saudi Arabia to drop the US dollar) to cooperation at the UNSC.

Stop name-calling for a bit, reduce the angry rhetoric, and think in clear mind. We are basically arguing for the same thing, only the approaches might be slightly different.

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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> That's the impression I get from reading your posts.
> 
> Everything the CPC does, it's always you here crying about it.
> 
> Like I said, go petition the National government in Beijing, then go and run away and hide in the American embassy to save yourself.


No idea what are you talking about，I'm not even against what CPC have done to help Russia.I'm just against some naive fools.


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## sahaliyan

East Lake said:


> I think it will be better if everyone was friends with each other. The Russians are good people and did at one point help China to build up.


Most ordinary people are good people,Chinese,Japanese,Koreans,Americans,Russians,Africans etc,but every country has own national interests and China and Russia has different interests


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## TaiShang

sahaliyan said:


> Most ordinary people are good people,Chinese,Japanese,Koreans,Americans,Russians,Africans etc,but every country has own national interests and China and Russia has different interests



My next door dorm-mate has a different interests than mine, as well. You are pointing to such a universal truth that almost all of us nearly missed.


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## sahaliyan

TaiShang said:


> My next door dorm-mate has a different interests than mine, as well. You are pointing to such a universal truth that almost all of us nearly missed.


Russians have better relation with Vietnam and India than China,no?Russians don't trust China,if China suffers in the future,they will not give a damn,deal with it,no one know better of Russians than people of northeast China


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## Chinese-Dragon

northeast said:


> No idea what are you talking about，I'm not even against what CPC have done to help Russia.I'm just against some naive fools.



I've been reading your posts here for years, every time the CPC does something, I can count on you to come and start crying about it. As usual.

Like in this thread, you are afraid we will find a way to bypass an American naval blockade of our oil and gas routes. 



northeast said:


> No idea what are you talking about，*I'm not even against what CPC have done to help Russia.*I'm just against some naive fools.



So what are you crying about?

Why do you think the CPC helped Russia, if not to help China's own interests?

Who is the naive one here?

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## TaiShang

sahaliyan said:


> Russians have better relation with Vietnam and India than China,no?Russians don't trust China,if China suffers in the future,they will not give a damn,deal with it,no one know better of Russians than people of northeast China



No.


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## sahaliyan

TaiShang said:


> No.


Lol,you just can't admit the truth,Russians can't trusted,this is proved by history,and Russia has close ties with Vietnam and India,more valuable than their relation with China


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## East Lake

sahaliyan said:


> Russians have better relation with Vietnam and India than China,no?Russians don't trust China,if China suffers in the future,they will not give a damn,deal with it,no one know better of Russians than people of northeast China



But as human being we should not see suffering of others. That is a bad thing in my opinion. Maybe they don't care, but helping is always better than not helping when possible. The Russian also gave China back the Northeast during foreign occupation after World War 2 so I don't see why they are bad?

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## sahaliyan

East Lake said:


> But as human being we should not see suffering of others. That is a bad thing in my opinion. Maybe they don't care, but helping is always better than not helping when possible. The Russian also gave China back the Northeast during foreign occupation after World War 2 so I don't see why they are bad?


Because Russians invade Ukraine,so they suffer now,if you don't want others suffer,then what about the people of Ukraine?
As for Russians gave back northeast,do you know what the Soviet army did in Manchuria?and do you Yalta?Russians gave back Manchuria because they promised in Yalta,but China should give up outer Mongolia


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## TaiShang

East Lake said:


> But as human being we should not see suffering of others. That is a bad thing in my opinion. Maybe they don't care, but helping is always better than not helping when possible. The Russian also gave China back the Northeast during foreign occupation after World War 2 so I don't see why they are bad?



He is a false flag troll, hoping to sow some discord between Chinese and Russian members here by citing some dead historical documents that are false. Just ignore him. China will do what is right for itself and the steps taken so far points to an unprecedented strategic partnership between the two nations.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> He is a false flag troll, hoping to sow some discord between Chinese and Russian members here by citing some dead historical documents that are false. Just ignore him. China will do what it right for itself and the steps taken so far points to an unprecedented strategic partnership between the two nations.



Exactly. 

If they love America so much, they should donate their money to them.



sahaliyan said:


> Because Russians invade Ukraine,so they suffer now,if you don't want others suffer,then what about the people of Ukraine?



Go and fight for Ukraine then.

Maybe America will give you a few dollars.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Exactly.
> 
> If they love America so much, they should donate their money to them.
> 
> 
> 
> Go and fight for Ukraine then.
> 
> Maybe America will give you a few dollars.



I put him on ignore. That's the best way to silence a (possibly) Indian troll that is on a mission to create discord among peoples.

Fighting in Ukraine is probably the best option for these people.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Fighting in Ukraine is probably the best option for these people.



Yes, @northeast and @sahaliyan can prove their loyalty to America by helping Ukraine.

Then maybe the USA will pay them a couple of US dollars.

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## East Lake

sahaliyan said:


> Because Russians invade Ukraine,so they suffer now,if you don't want others suffer,then what about the people of Ukraine?
> As for Russians gave back northeast,do you know what the Soviet army did in Manchuria?and do you Yalta?Russians gave back Manchuria because they promised in Yalta,but China should give up outer Mongolia



Yes it is not good they invade. The ordinary people should not suffer I think regardless of government. My history is not 100% good, but I can tell you that I know that they did help during and after WW2 and also Mongolia maybe independant, but they do not belong to Chinese culture and people in the first place (language and custom are not the same), so I can understand why they want out with Russian help.


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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes, @northeast and @sahaliyan can prove their loyalty to America by helping Ukraine.
> 
> Then maybe the USA will pay them a couple of US dollars.



Cheapest trolls. I guess US invests more on Joshua and the likes.

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## sahaliyan

TaiShang said:


> He is a false flag troll, hoping to sow some discord between Chinese and Russian members here by citing some dead historical documents that are false. Just ignore him. China will do what is right for itself and the steps taken so far points to an unprecedented strategic partnership between the two nations.


你才是 false flag troll，想做黄俄疯了吧



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes, @northeast and @sahaliyan can prove their loyalty to America by helping Ukraine.
> 
> Then maybe the USA will pay them a couple of US dollars.


有点逻辑，反俄不等于亲美，我不喜欢俄罗斯，不代表我支持美国。我也不喜欢美国，对我来说，美国和俄罗斯都不是好东西

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## Chinese-Dragon

sahaliyan said:


> 你才是 false flag troll，想做黄俄疯了吧



你開玩笑吧？ 

@TaiShang is a Chinese patriot. It is clear from his posts.

It is you who wants to help the Ukraine for a few US dollars.

And you just got "thanked" by Lux de Vertias, the most well known anti-China hater on this entire forum.

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## sahaliyan

East Lake said:


> Yes it is not good they invade. The ordinary people should not suffer I think regardless of government. My history is not 100% good, but I can tell you that I know that they did help during and after WW2 and also Mongolia maybe independant, but they do not belong to Chinese culture and people in the first place (language and custom are not the same), so I can understand why they want out with Russian help.


What is Chinese culture and who are Chinese people?Are Uyghurs Chinese people,can they seek Russian help to get independence?And you think Russians separated outer Mongolia is right thing?


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## TaiShang

*Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Qin Gang's Regular Press Conference on December 18, 2014*

*Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Qin Gang's Regular Press Conference on December 18, 2014*

_Q: Given the sharp plunge of ruble over recent days, western media have come to a conclusion that the Russian economy has collapsed and painted a bleak picture of the Moscow Administration. It is said that the Chinese side will offer support to Russia due to geopolitical reasons. What is China's comment on that? Will the Chinese side provide support to Russia through mechanisms such as the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)?_

A: The Chinese side has noted the recent fluctuation of the ruble exchange rate as well as all kinds of measures taken by the Russian government to stabilize the foreign exchange market.* Russia has a rather abundant reserve of foreign exchanges, and a low ratio of public debt to the GDP among G20 members, not to mention its rich resources and good industrial foundation. We believe that Russia is capable of surmounting the current temporary difficulty.*

The slow and sluggish recovery of global economy has posed a big downward pressure on the economy of SCO members. The SCO is not only an organization to safeguard regional security and stability, but also an important platform for all members to pursue common development. Economic cooperation is also one of the three pillars of the SCO. Facing the new economic landscape of the region and the world, SCO members share a will which is to enhance practical cooperation between each other and work hand in hand to achieve economic stability and growth in each and every country in the region. Just a few days ago, leaders of SCO member states reaffirmed this consensus and arrived at new and important agreement at the prime ministers' meeting of the SCO member states in Astana. The Chinese side always stands for practical cooperation among SCO members. We have put forward a China-Eurasia economic cooperation fund for SCO members, observers and dialogue partners. The first round of program selection will be held soon. The "Silk Road Fund" set up by China will consider actively about cooperation programs under the SCO framework.

*In short, we are ready to work with all SCO members to step up economic cooperation, promote economic restructuring and upgrade, and explore new growth points of cooperation so as to achieve common development and stability.*

_Q: Will the currency swap agreement between China and Russia be affected? Will the Chinese side make any adjustment? What will happen to China-Russia cooperation in energy and trade?_

A: You should be prepared for the fluctuation of exchange rate in any currency swap. When signing bilateral currency swap agreement, countries will take this into account and work out terms or mechanisms about exchange rate adjustment. *The currency swap agreement between China and Russia was signed according to international convention. It has not been affected for now.*

Although the international exchange rate market is going through ups and downs, *please do not forget that China and Russia are highly complementary in the economic field, with broad areas and huge potential for cooperation. Governments and companies from the two sides are like-minded and active when it comes to strengthening cooperation in trade and investment. During the recent meetings between President Xi Jinping and President Vladimir Putin, they have expressed the readiness to make joint efforts, broaden and deepen practical cooperation across the board. Days ago, when meeting with Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev in Astana, Premier Li Keqiang agreed with him that the two countries should increase energy cooperation. They also reached important new consensus on enhancing cooperation in high-speed railways, infrastructure, and the development of Russia's Far East region. In a nutshell, we are full of confidence in the prospect China-Russia economic cooperation and trade.*


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## sahaliyan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> 你開玩笑吧？
> 
> @TaiShang is a Chinese patriot. It is clear from his posts.
> 
> It is you who wants to help the Ukraine for a few US dollars.


嘴上喊爱国，爱的是哪个国？俄罗斯？
我哪个帖子支持美国了？可以找出来

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## Lux de Veritas

sahaliyan said:


> 你才是 false flag troll，想做黄俄疯了吧
> 
> 
> 有点逻辑，反俄不等于亲美，我不喜欢俄罗斯，不代表我支持美国。我也不喜欢美国，对我来说，美国和俄罗斯都不是好东西


铁血那边的网友至少还有些血性。很多PDF这票人比秦桧，石敬瑭不如。至少秦桧还没卖过外蒙，外满，阿拉木图，唐努乌梁海。北极熊给中国的灾害胜过女真人万倍。


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## sahaliyan

Lux de Veritas said:


> 铁血那边的网友至少还有些血性。很多PDF这票人比秦桧不如。至少秦桧还没卖过外蒙，外满，阿拉木图，唐努乌梁海。北极熊给中国的灾害胜过女真人万倍。


我是满族


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## Chinese-Dragon

sahaliyan said:


> 嘴上喊爱国，爱的是哪个国？俄罗斯？
> 我哪个帖子支持美国了？可以找出来



Go fight for Ukraine. Earn some 美圓 as usual.

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## sahaliyan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Go fight for Ukraine. Earn some 美圓 as usual.


只剩下人身攻击了？


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## Lux de Veritas

sahaliyan said:


> 我是满族


满族汉族都一样。我是闽越族。

上策是北极熊不死不活，向现在一样，加上老美天天找他麻烦。天朝趁机坐大。


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## TaiShang

China-Russia relations are as good as ever.

And getting better.

*Vice Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping Meets with Counter-terrorism Consultation Delegation from Russia*

2014/12/17






On December 17, 2014, Vice Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping met with Director of the Department of New Challenges and Threats of the Foreign Ministry Ilya Rogachev of Russia who came to China to attend the 10th meeting of the China-Russia Counter-terrorism working group.

Cheng said that the current international situation is undergoing profound and complex changes, therefore, as strategic partners, China and Russia should continue to strengthen cooperation to jointly address all kinds of challenges and threats. Security cooperation is an important part of China-Russia relations. China and Russia should further strengthen communication and cooperation in the area of counter-terrorism so as to safeguard respective sovereignty, security and development interests.

Rogachev briefed the meeting of the working group and said Russia attaches great importance to conducting anti-terrorism cooperation with China and is willing to make joint efforts with the Chinese side to further deepen and expand bilateral exchanges and cooperation in the field of counter-terrorism.

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## terranMarine

That Carlosa dude is a hypocrite that's for sure just like* 55100864* has pointed already.
Here he is trying to tell us that China must help Russia unconditionally and forget about SCS, the real threat is USA.
It's no secret he is very pro Vietnam claiming he has lived in USA/China/VN for many years, his anti China posts are all over the place and yet he dare say he is neutral. Even when nihonjin posted a funny picture recently on a thread about China and SCS/VN he immediately attacked him for taking side of China.

So spare us with the fake acting, China will deal with the situation the Russians are facing right now and at the same time we ain't losing our sights on SCS, especially dealing with out pet. We shall slap the Vietcongs in their face whenever it's necessary.

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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes, @northeast and @sahaliyan can prove their loyalty to America by helping Ukraine.
> 
> Then maybe the USA will pay them a couple of US dollars.


Lol，When did I supprot US.You just make it out from your ashes.Are you a russian spy？


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## sahaliyan

Lux de Veritas said:


> 满族汉族都一样。我是闽越族。
> 
> 上策是北极熊不死不活，向现在一样，加上老美天天找他麻烦。天朝趁机坐大。


我是针对你那句女真人对中国伤害而言的
中国的最佳策略就是让北极熊和白头鹰互斗，我们谁也不帮

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## TaiShang

Lux de Veritas said:


> 满族汉族都一样。我是闽越族。
> 
> 上策是北极熊不死不活，向现在一样，加上老美天天找他麻烦。天朝趁机坐大。



LOL.

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## Chinese-Dragon

sahaliyan said:


> 只剩下人身攻击了？



人身攻擊? 

You were the one who sympathizes with the Ukraine, same as America. Why not fight for them?

I support the CPC, and I trust them to make the right decisions. They want to increase relations with Russia instead of America, I support them. Because they care about China first.

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## Lux de Veritas

北极熊几十年前还搞过 高岗独立，新疆独立。新疆还好KMT盛世才他们爱国，加上苏德战争，不然新疆早就完蛋。

至今阿共仍在搞臭盛世才名声。


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## sahaliyan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> 人身攻擊?
> 
> You were the one who sympathizes with the Ukraine, same as America. Why not fight for them?


Yes,I think Ukraine is right,Russia is wrong,then so what?Americans also eat food,then you don't eat food just because Americans do it?
Ukraine is not my country,why should I fight for them?If you support Russia so much,then why you didn't fight for them?


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## East Lake

sahaliyan said:


> What is Chinese culture and who are Chinese people?Are Uyghurs Chinese people,can they seek Russian help to get independence?And you think Russians separated outer Mongolia is right thing?



They are Chinese people from the border of China but not real Chinese people. Faces and language is not same. You are Chinese? You should know what Uyghur look like. The same with Mongolia, the language and culture different. They are more similar to Siberia and Qing Dynasty rulers in custom, language and looks. This does not mean we should not respect all who live in China that are different. 

I believe also it is not right or wrong if seperated. We were weak as a nation so we learn a lesson never to be weak again and to protect the country. Helping Russia today will also help China benefit.

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## northeast

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yes, @northeast and @sahaliyan can prove their loyalty to America by helping Ukraine.
> 
> Then maybe the USA will pay them a couple of US dollars.


Lol，when did I support US？You just pull it out from your ashes.Why do you always making up things that don't exist.Are you a russian spy？


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## Chinese-Dragon

Lux de Veritas said:


> 北极熊几十年前还搞过 高岗独立，新疆独立。新疆还好KMT盛世才他们爱国，加上苏德战争，不然新疆早就完蛋。
> 
> 至今阿共仍在搞臭盛世才名声。



KMT supporters infesting this thread. 

@ChineseTiger1986



sahaliyan said:


> Yes,I think Ukraine is right,Russia is wrong,then so what?Americans also eat food,then you don't eat food just because Americans do it?
> Ukraine is not my country,why should I fight for them?If you support Russia so much,then why you didn't fight for them?



I only support China and the CPC.

The CPC decided to support Russia instead of America. Too bad for you.

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## Lux de Veritas

The PRC commie has a Russian gang, and if they ascend to power, they may sold PRC to Russia.

For all sins of Mao, he is more of a nationalist.


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## TaiShang

*China Offers Enhanced Cooperation as Russia Struggles*
By Bloomberg News December 19, 2014




Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, left, shakes hands with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev in Astana, Kazakhstan on Dec. 15, 2014. Source: TPG via Getty Images

*China offered enhanced economic ties with Russia at a regional summit this week as its northern neighbor struggled to contain a currency crisis.*

“To help counteract an economic slowdown, China is ready to provide financial aid to develop cooperation,” Premier Li Keqiang said at a Dec. 15 gathering in Astana, Kazakhstan. While the remark applied to any of the five other nations represented at the meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization group, it was directed at Russia, according to a person familiar with the matter who asked not to be named as the plans weren’t public.

Any rescue package for Russia would give China the opportunity of exercising the kind of great-power leadership the U.S. has demonstrated for a century -- sustaining other economies with its superior financial resources. President Xi Jinping last month called for China to adopt *“big-country diplomacy”* as he laid out goals for elevating his nation’s status.

*“If the Kremlin decides to seek assistance from Beijing, it’s very unlikely for the Xi leadership to turn it down,” said Cheng Yijun, senior researcher with the Institute of Russian, Eastern European, Central Asian Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing. “This would be a perfect opportunity to demonstrate China is a friend indeed, and also its big power status.”*

*China Ready*
*Russia isn’t in talks with China about any financial aid, *said Dmitry Peskov, a spokesman for President Vladimir Putin. He said he didn’t know if China is preparing to offer aid. China’s Foreign Ministry, asked about assisting Russia, said the country is ready to work with all members of the SCO group to strengthen economic cooperation.

*One-time Cold War ally China already proved a help to its neighbor embroiled in tensions with the U.S. and European Union earlier this year, signing a three-decade, $400 billion deal to buy Russian gas.*

Seeking China’s support is one of Russia’s most realistic options, the state-run Chinese newspaper Global Times wrote in a Dec. 17 editorial. A decision on whether to use some of its windfall gains from falling oil prices to aid Russia would hinge on whether Putin’s government is willing to ask for assistance, said Cheng, who is also a research fellow at the Development Research Center, which is a unit of the State Council, or cabinet.

*Putin Grit*
The two nations’ strategic partnership means that China would have to step in if the ruble crisis deepens, Cheng said.

Putin gave no indication he was entertaining the idea of asking for Chinese help. In an annual press conference, he warned that his nation’s economic slump could drag on for two years. Blaming the U.S. and Europe for the crisis, he advised his central bank not to spend shrinking currency reserves to protect the ruble, which has plunged 32 percent in the past two months against the dollar.

Russia’s currency weakened 2.3 percent this week even after the central bank raised its key interest rate to 17 percent from 10.5 percent.

*IMF Difficulty*
While emerging markets facing such situations typically can turn to the International Monetary Fund for help, Russia’s impasse with Group of Seven nations over the situation in Ukraine may make it difficult to find loan conditions agreeable to all member countries, given that the U.S. and European nations dominate the Washington-based lender.

Putin in any case “would probably rather cut off an arm than negotiate a financial support package” with nations whose sanctions helped fuel its crisis, William Hess, co-head of research at New York-based PRC Macro Advisors Ltd., wrote in an e-mailed note Dec. 17.

*China has used $25 billion of its foreign-exchange reserves to support oil supply from a Sino-Russian pipeline, and another $67.3 billion to boost the supply of crude oil from Russia, according to a statement on the central Chinese government’s website posted this week.* The statement didn’t specify what type of support was provided or a time frame for the help, other than saying it was since Li took office in March 2013.

*Reserve Strength*
China’s reserves -- the world’s largest -- stood at $3.89 trillion at the end of September. Russia had $373.7 billion at the end of last month, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

At the Astana gathering of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization this week, Li met with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev. The group includes Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan along with Russia and China.

Faxed questions to China’s State Council on a potential specific offer of aid went unanswered. Asked whether China would offer support to Russia amid its crisis, Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said that “we believe that Russia is capable of surmounting the current temporary difficulty,” citing its currency reserves, natural resources, industry and relatively low government debt.

*’New’ Points*
“We are ready to work with all SCO members to step up economic cooperation, promote economic restructuring and upgrade, and explore new growth points of cooperation so as to achieve common development and stability,” the spokesman said, according to a transcript of the briefing.

Russia’s currency-swap deal with China is one potential avenue of help, said Arthur Kroeber, Beijing-based managing director of economic research firm Gavekal Dragonomics. The agreement on a three-year 150 billion yuan ($24 billion) local-currency swap was one of the accords reached between Putin and Xi in October.

“China values Russia as a strategic counterweight to the U.S. and so has no interest in a Russia implosion,” Kroeber wrote in an e-mailed response to questions. Kroeber said that low risk of a Russia collapse means that “Chinese assistance other than maybe a bit of discreet buying of ruble assets” is “not that necessary.”

China, the world’s largest oil importer, has emerged as one of the biggest winners from the slump in the fuel’s price that has hammered its northern neighbor. A 30 percent drop in the price of oil alone could add 0.3 to 0.5 percentage point to China’s growth, says Mizuho Bank Ltd.

Russia’s crisis is a double-edged sword for China, said Wang Haiyun, a former Chinese military attaché to Russia and a senior consultant to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

“If China gets involved too much it would risk being dragged into the crisis itself,” Wang said. “China could offer to bail out Russia but at the same time it has to watch out for any potential risks.”

***

Too all the China-haters (who thus hate Russia). This is I guess a "in your face" article.

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## sahaliyan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> KMT supporters infesting this thread.
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986
> 
> 
> 
> I only support China and the CPC.
> 
> The CPC decided to support Russia instead of America. Too bad for you.


I only support China,and if CCP is right,I will support CCP
By the way,CCP is not side with Russia in Ukrainian war

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## Chinese-Dragon

Lux de Veritas said:


> The PRC commie has a Russian gang, and if they ascend to power, they may sold PRC to Russia.
> 
> For all sins of Mao, he is more of a nationalist.



You guys hate the PRC.

Too bad the PRC has enough firepower to turn your KMT into ashes. 



sahaliyan said:


> I only support China,and if CCP is right,I will support CCP



CPC *IS* right. They have chosen to support Russia over America, and all the lackeys can go cry about it.

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## sahaliyan

For China's Russia lovers,Russia is more like a daddy than a friend or partner
But for us the people know Russian nature,we know Russia support Vietnam,support India,we know they fear Chinese take over of Siberia,they will never get close to China,so wishful think can't replace the reality

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## Chinese-Dragon

sahaliyan said:


> *Russia is more like a daddy*



Maybe they are your daddy, but not ours.

Russia is our best chance to avoid an American naval blockade of our oil/gas sea routes. They are useful for China's interests, that's why the CPC supports them over America.

And the only thing that matters is China's interests.

Not America's, sorry.

And you're still being "thanked" by Lux de Veritas, the most anti-China member of this entire forum.  That shows who agrees with you.

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## sahaliyan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Maybe they are your daddy, but not ours.
> 
> Russia is our best chance to avoid an American naval blockade of our oil/gas sea routes. They are useful for China's interests, that's why the CPC supports them over America.
> 
> And the only thing that matters is China's interests.
> 
> Not America's, sorry.


No,Russia isn't a chance,Kazakhstan,Turkmenistan etc are,small countries can't threat China,and can be real friends


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## Chinese-Dragon

sahaliyan said:


> No,Russia isn't a chance,Kazakhstan,Turkmenistan etc are,small countries can't threat China,and can be real friends



Go complain to the CPC then, tell them to change their policy.

And WTF are you talking about "friends". There are no friends in geopolitics, only strategic partners.

And we already have plenty of pipelines to Central Asia anyway.

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## Lux de Veritas

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Go complain to the CPC then, tell them to change their policy.
> 
> And WTF are you talking about "friends". There are no friends in geopolitics, only strategic partners.
> 
> And we already have plenty of pipelines to Central Asia anyway.



It would be foolish to assume that CPC will support Russia. Most likely as one of the guys here put it, CPC will be politically neutral meanwhile trying to profit from the situation economically.


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## sahaliyan

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Go complain to the CPC then, tell them to change their policy.
> 
> And WTF are you talking about "friends". There are no friends in geopolitics, only strategic partners.


I support Ukraine,but for our official policy,I think we should stay neutral,do business with both side


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## northeast

So what China have done to help Russia's collapsing Economy？What do you guys think we should do for Russia？Let's talk about the details.Not some empty words.then I could say my opinion about that.
不说细节简直就像鸡同鸭讲


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## danger007

sahaliyan said:


> For China's Russia lovers,Russia is more like a daddy than a friend or partner
> But for us the people know Russian nature,we know Russia support Vietnam,support India,we know they fear Chinese take over of Siberia,they will never get close to China,so wishful think can't replace the reality


that's highly unlikely. . I am unable to see what kinda logic you are pulling out.. Capturing Siberia is out of option for china... and is Russian ally since decades. . way before china become Russian friend. ..


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## northeast

danger007 said:


> that's highly unlikely. . I am unable to see what kinda logic you are pulling out.. Capturing Siberia is out of option for china... and is Russian ally since decades. . way before china become Russian friend. ..


We are not ally now.I think everyone knows that.


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## sahaliyan

danger007 said:


> that's highly unlikely. . I am unable to see what kinda logic you are pulling out.. Capturing Siberia is out of option for china... and is Russian ally since decades. . way before china become Russian friend. ..


We don't want to take Siberia,but Russians fear it
And Soviet Union was Chinese ally in 1950s,they use you because their relation with us broken


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## danger007

sahaliyan said:


> We don't want to take Siberia,but Russians fear it
> And Soviet Union was Chinese ally in 1950s,they use you because their relation with us broken


really... am surprised. .


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## TaiShang

terranMarine said:


> That Carlosa dude is a hypocrite that's for sure just like* 55100864* has pointed already.
> Here he is trying to tell us that China must help Russia unconditionally and forget about SCS, the real threat is USA.
> It's no secret he is very pro Vietnam claiming he has lived in USA/China/VN for many years, his anti China posts are all over the place and yet he dare say he is neutral. Even when nihonjin posted a funny picture recently on a thread about China and SCS/VN he immediately attacked him for taking side of China.
> 
> So spare us with the fake acting, China will deal with the situation the Russians are facing right now and at the same time we ain't losing our sights on SCS, especially dealing with out pet. We shall slap the Vietcongs in their face whenever it's necessary.



Obviously China can deal with the issues of Russia-West conflict and the SCS/ECS simultaneously. It has enough human capital, historical experience and economic power to do that. No need to sacrifice one for the sake of other. I wonder why some people doubt China's capability to do so. Foreign policy is never linear; maybe so for small countries. But not for China. It is multi-track and multilateral.


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## BuddhaPalm

China should oppose American hegemony on principle not merely national interests. Since Putin's Russia shares the same ideology we are naturally partners. We settled our border with Russia and should try to re-open the dispute. Everybody who oppose American hegemony is our ally!


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## Chinese-Dragon

BuddhaPalm said:


> China should oppose American hegemony on principle not merely national interests. Since Putin's Russia shares the same ideology we are naturally partners. We settled our border with Russia and should try to re-open the dispute.



KMT supporters (anti-China crowd) won't like that.

Though I doubt they liked our $800 billion gas deal with Russia either, or our currency swap agreement even when the Ruble is falling.

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## BuddhaPalm

Carlosa said:


> You need a reality check buddy.


While Russia and USA are in conflict we will take out our most evil enemy the Viets. We let this tumor continue to infest SE Asia for far too long. Now it's time to reduce Vietnam to mail order brides. Massive invasion, brutal occupation and population control will be the final solution. Thanks to USA for focusing on Russia while leaving Viets to suffer pain.


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## kuge

sahaliyan said:


> For China's Russia lovers,Russia is more like a daddy than a friend or partner
> But for us the people know Russian nature,we know Russia support Vietnam,support India,we know they fear Chinese take over of Siberia,they will never get close to China,so wishful think can't replace the reality


i broadly agreed..
i think russia-china's ship floats solely on profit. there is no real friend in a dog-eat-dog hostile world of self-interest.

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## sahaliyan

kuge said:


> i broadly agreed..
> i think russia-china's ship floats solely on profit. there is no real friend in a dog-eat-dog hostile world of self-interest.


However I think we should keep good relation with Russia(we should don't join sanctions against Russia,we should do business with Russia,you know it's a chance for China to dominant Russian market) ,US see us as threat,Russians broken ties with west is a good thing for us,we should get benefit from it

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The UK is closer to the US than they are to other European nations.
> 
> France/Germany/Italy have no chance to compete against the Anglo-Saxon inner circle for the turbofan engine technology.
> 
> As long as the UK is still there, Airbus has no chance to compete against Boeing for the aerospace dominance.



The UK is closer to itself than it is to the USA. Airbus is the british aviation corporation. As it is also french, german, italian and spanish. And you are right! Airbus has no chance to compete against Boeing. Somehow we managed to sell more planes, generate more profits and even push Boeing out of their traditional core market inside the USA and Japan. Airbus reached the market dominance of the world as Nr. 1 seller of airplanes. But we cant break the dominance of the Nr. 2. Wait a minute? lol

dude your nonsense is so laughable that it makes me laugh. Btw you do realize that turbofan engines are in no way special and are produced in evrywhere in europe? There is a market oligopoly between R&R, P&W and GE. That doesnt mean that two nations own the holy grail of turbofan engines. Turbo fan engines are easy to build, maintain and to develop. evry weastern european nation has the ability to build this. After all its a concept thats over 60 years old. The imagination that this is some "magic" super technology can only come frome someone who is from a developing country. Just a hint for you. Siemens could build you any turbofan engine you want. And so does Alstom SNECMA. 

Maybe Boeing should use its "dominance" to become the nr. 1 producer of airplanes again. they lost this title 14 years ago against airbus. ha ha ha ha


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## BuddhaPalm

Chinese-Dragon said:


> KMT supporters (anti-China crowd) won't like that.


Of course, let's not forget mainland China has a KMT too


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## xunzi

Between Russia and USA, who is the bigger threat to our existence? The answer is pretty obvious, the USA! But it is also the USA that can help in our development. We are walking in a tight rope, a very thin rope I must say. It is important that we don't get drag into either side but to play the neutral role, a mediator role between Russia and the West. After all, if push comes to shove, Russia has enough nuke to destroy the world. I also don't believe the West got the ball to **** with Russia/China because we are too powerful and we can destroy them, too. The real battle is on the economic level as you can already see. The West seek to suffocate Russia with their advance technology and dominant in the global economic system. They can do the same to us, although it would be tougher as we are far more advance than Russia in industrial technology and we also happen to be the West's creditor. So they need us, just as much as we need them to continue development.

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## Carlosa

55100864 said:


> @Carlosa
> I find your biases and hypocrisy quite amusing. I know your are anti-china and pro Russia, on one hand, you dream about drag the USA into SCS to crash the Chinese imperialism in order to save your beloved Vietnam, a nation that is gradually becoming an US lackey. On the other hand, you want China to unconditionally help your beloved Russia, and keep badmouthing how despicable we Chinese are taking advantage of Russia's misery. You must think the CCP are all retarded do you? Care to explain to me why is that a mutual beneficial relationship between China and Russia become China sucking Russian blood?
> 
> We fully understand what's going on around global, you keep talking about saving Russia is saving ourselves, that's right, you will find no Chinese on this forum disagree with that, but the Russian should also know that helping China is also helping themselves, no?? In addition, i think Russia is not as miserable as many people think, the west now is like killing 100 enemies by sacrificing 80 own men, the EU is in decline and will sleep with anyone who can give them a little bit comfort, the US is also panicking and running out of ideas, you can see from their rather childish ranting in recent years, you never see US behave like this. So anyway, how about a deep and comprehensive cooperation between China and Russia? and here my thought on the grand Chinese Marshall plan to counter strike the west.
> 
> Most important, share of intel and experiences. Russia has accumulated extensive intel on the US military (submarine, nuclear arsenals, CIA deployment，etc...) we also have extremely advanced intel gathering capabilities and experiences
> China should launch massive( i mean really MASSIVE) investment in Russia to help them rebuild their industries and finance, but this can not happen without enough protection from Russia government and a bold reform of their industry structure. They seriously need to get rid of the their insecurity toward China, and execute all the xenophobic neo nazi punks. We have no intention to invade Siberia，seriously, they outsourced all of their infrastructure to the turks, but not China??? With our unprecedented industry might, we can turn the bleak Sino Russia border into a dynamic economic zone in 5 years.
> We can help Russia to expand their navy base in Vladivostok_, _Russia may find difficult funding their new navy vessels, but we can leverage their pressure from Pacific by frequently conducting joint exercise near Kuril Islands.
> Politically, we obovisely have more say in BRICS, but to be honest, BRICS is a joke at least for now, Brazil is a useless shithole country, the country of the future and will always be, US has huge influence in S America, but we have enough influence to make Brazil neutral，other wise they can say bye bye to growth, same as India, actually, Russia can still sucking Indian blood. In the SCO block, Russia can give China more access to central Asia politics while they still have some influence in that region, they will lose that remained influence sooner or late, it's much more easier to build the land based new silk road than the maritime silk road, they better give it to china than to the west. We can also cooperate on the Arctic Ocean issues.
> Technology? not so much, i'm tired about some clueless people talking about we will sucking up all the Russian technologies, there is nothing Russia has that we desperately desires, we actually have far better electronics( AEWC，avionics，data-link) we can help Russia in these fields. Russian have better missile, better submarine, better jet engine，but we don't need it, because our jet engine R&D projects had chosen a completely different technological path from Russia, and will reach maturity soon. but we certainly can cooperate on space, fusion reactor etc.....
> Energy security, no need to say.....!
> We will NOT give up the ECS and SCS claim, our maneuver in these disputes areas can easily drive the US attentions away from Russia. Maybe you should ask your beloved Vietnam to see the bigger picture, we will have the full control over SCS sooner or later, by that time, the maritime silk road will became a reality, it like releasing a caged dragon, which would means the game over of US hegemony，sound？？let face the reality here, what can vietnam get even we gift the whole SCS to her? The SCS in Vietnam's hand is just SCS, a swimming pool, but the SCS in our hand would be a nightmare for the west.



I don't have a problem with most of your points and I don't see how that differs from what I said. I have no issues with your deep and comprehensive cooperation between China and Russia, but that requires time and that will not help now.

You said "you want China to unconditionally help your beloved Russia, and keep badmouthing how despicable we Chinese are taking advantage of Russia's misery.". When did I badmouth how Chinese are taking advantage of Russia's misery?

I already clarified that by unconditional help I meant to help by not taking advantage of their situation. Many chinese members here keep talking about only helping if there is profit, they are saying that, not me, I just keep telling them that they don't see the big picture of what's going on, how is that badmouthing china?

In the SCS, I do oppose china and I'm not going to change my mind on that because I consider china to be wrong. What I tried to say is to forget about those conflicts and concentrate into what is really the priority, it does not have to mean that you give up anything, just to keep the priorities clear and I suggested a better way to deal with differences in those areas, but you don't seem to be interested on that, that's fine, but I tell you, if you think that china is going to have much time to keep doing what has being doing, you are wrong and if you think that they are going to let you take control of SCS or ECS, you are wrong again. Actually, your aggressive behavior in SCS is inviting a response and labeling yourself as a threat before you are fully prepared to deal with USA. I think Mr. Xi is a bit too impatient.

I'm not biased or hipocritical. I'm very clear where I stand and what the big picture is, I'm pro Viet when it comes to that conflict, but I'm trying to rise above that and concentrate in the big picture because that's what is really important and will affect everybody (everybody in the region will continue to survive with or without those islands, Its really a petty conflict), but you prefer to attack me and stay at the perspective of the regional conflicts which in the end only creates more enemies for yourself and make your adversary stronger, that's a self defeating strategy in the end, but fine with me, go on with that and we'll see later how that works out.

Regarding the SCS, you are running ahead of your capabilities, you don't have the power projection capabilities to keep the area in your hands in the face of an american assault; it would be very easy for them to wipe you out of there and then it would be them that will use those facilities. All you are doing there is putting everybody against you, creating new enemies and making it easy for USA to justify what they are planning to do there to you; actually, you are doing what they needed you to do. You actually played into their game and their trap.

Conclusion, I oppose china at the local level, but at the global level China and Russia are needed to break the american empire. I have no problem with having both positions and I tried to talk to you in a friendly way. I would think you should try to gain more friends, not more enemies, but of course china will do what it will do.



BuddhaPalm said:


> While Russia and USA are in conflict we will take out our most evil enemy the Viets. We let this tumor continue to infest SE Asia for far too long. Now it's time to reduce Vietnam to mail order brides. Massive invasion, brutal occupation and population control will be the final solution. Thanks to USA for focusing on Russia while leaving Viets to suffer pain.



I can see that you are very smart, wise strategy. Good luck with that.

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## Raphael

China Offers Enhanced Cooperation as Russia Struggles - Bloomberg

China offered enhanced economic ties with Russia at a regional summit this week as its northern neighbor struggled to contain a currency crisis.

“To help counteract an economic slowdown, China is ready to provide financial aid to develop cooperation,” Premier Li Keqiang said at a Dec. 15 gathering in Astana, Kazakhstan. While the remark applied to any of the five other nations represented at the meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization group, it was directed at Russia, according to a person familiar with the matter who asked not to be named as the plans weren’t public.

Any rescue package for Russia would give China the opportunity of exercising the kind of great-power leadership the U.S. has demonstrated for a century -- sustaining other economies with its superior financial resources. President Xi Jinping last month called for China to adopt “big-country diplomacy” as he laid out goals for elevating his nation’s status.

“If the Kremlin decides to seek assistance from Beijing, it’s very unlikely for the Xi leadership to turn it down,” said Cheng Yijun, senior researcher with the Institute of Russian, Eastern European, Central Asian Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing. “This would be a perfect opportunity to demonstrate China is a friend indeed, and also its big power status.”

*China Ready *
Russia isn’t in talks with China about any financial aid, said Dmitry Peskov, a spokesman for President Vladimir Putin. He said he didn’t know if China is preparing to offer aid. China’s Foreign Ministry, asked about assisting Russia, said the country is ready to work with all members of the SCO group to strengthen economic cooperation.

One-time Cold War ally China already proved a help to its neighbor embroiled in tensions with the U.S. and European Union earlier this year, signing a three-decade, $400 billion deal to buy Russian gas.

Seeking China’s support is one of Russia’s most realistic options, the state-run Chinese newspaper Global Times wrote in a Dec. 17 editorial. A decision on whether to use some of its windfall gains from falling oil prices to aid Russia would hinge on whether Putin’s government is willing to ask for assistance, said Cheng, who is also a research fellow at the Development Research Center, which is a unit of the State Council, or cabinet.

*Putin Grit *
The two nations’ strategic partnership means that China would have to step in if the ruble crisis deepens, Cheng said.

Putin gave no indication he was entertaining the idea of asking for Chinese help. In an annual press conference, he warned that his nation’s economic slump could drag on for two years. Blaming the U.S. and Europe for the crisis, he advised his central bank not to spend shrinking currency reserves to protect the ruble, which has plunged 32 percent in the past two months against the dollar.

Russia’s currency weakened 2.3 percent this week even after the central bank raised its key interest rate to 17 percent from 10.5 percent.

*IMF Difficulty *
While emerging markets facing such situations typically can turn to the International Monetary Fund for help, Russia’s impasse with Group of Seven nations over the situation in Ukraine may make it difficult to find loan conditions agreeable to all member countries, given that the U.S. and European nations dominate the Washington-based lender.

Putin in any case “would probably rather cut off an arm than negotiate a financial support package” with nations whose sanctions helped fuel its crisis, William Hess, co-head of research at New York-based PRC Macro Advisors Ltd., wrote in an e-mailed note Dec. 17.

Meantime, Russia’s strategic importance to China means it may consider “bold steps” at a time when few others are willing to help, he said. “This brings us back to China and leaves Xi Jinping and China as Putin’s possible white knight.”

China has used $25 billion of its foreign-exchange reserves to support oil supply from a Sino-Russian pipeline, and another $67.3 billion to boost the supply of crude oil from Russia, according to a statement on the central Chinese government’s website posted this week. The statement didn’t specify what type of support was provided or a time frame for the help, other than saying it was since Li took office in March 2013.

*Reserve Strength *
China’s reserves -- the world’s largest -- stood at $3.89 trillion at the end of September. Russia had $373.7 billion at the end of last month, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

At the Astana gathering of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization this week, Li met with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev. The group includes Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan along with Russia and China.

“China is ready to take such measures bilaterally and with other members of the SCO group,” Li said of his offer for help.

Faxed questions to China’s State Council on a potential specific offer of aid went unanswered. Asked whether China would offer support to Russia amid its crisis, Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said that “we believe that Russia is capable of surmounting the current temporary difficulty,” citing its currency reserves, natural resources, industry and relatively low government debt.

*’New’ Points *
“We are ready to work with all SCO members to step up economic cooperation, promote economic restructuring and upgrade, and explore new growth points of cooperation so as to achieve common development and stability,” the spokesman said, according to a transcript of the briefing.

Russia’s currency-swap deal with China is one potential avenue of help, said Arthur Kroeber, Beijing-based managing director of economic research firm Gavekal Dragonomics. The agreement on a three-year 150 billion yuan ($24 billion) local-currency swap was one of the accords reached between Putin and Xi in October.

“China values Russia as a strategic counterweight to the U.S. and so has no interest in a Russia implosion,” Kroeber wrote in an e-mailed response to questions. Kroeber said that low risk of a Russia collapse means that “Chinese assistance other than maybe a bit of discreet buying of ruble assets” is “not that necessary.”

China, the world’s largest oil importer, has emerged as one of the biggest winners from the slump in the fuel’s price that has hammered its northern neighbor. A 30 percent drop in the price of oil alone could add 0.3 to 0.5 percentage point to China’s growth, says Mizuho Bank Ltd.

Russia’s crisis is a double-edged sword for China, said Wang Haiyun, a former Chinese military attaché to Russia and a senior consultant to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

“If China gets involved too much it would risk being dragged into the crisis itself,” Wang said. “China could offer to bail out Russia but at the same time it has to watch out for any potential risks.”

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## Chinese-Dragon

Good. 

The drop in global oil prices is really going to boost our economic output this year as well.

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## rida.rwp

I think Russia has to accept the co-operation with China, with the support of China Russia can defeat the America.

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## TaiShang

I guess there is gonna be a sort of deal to assist Russia but it will probably be clandestine.

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## conkhi

i prefer China as Vietnam's papa than uncle sam. We Viets must not fall for the western democracy trap

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## war is peace

What is shupapawa doing to help russia. Poor nation can't even help itself yet they come and and scream superpower by 2020infinity's


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> The UK is closer to itself than it is to the USA. Airbus is the british aviation corporation. As it is also french, german, italian and spanish. And you are right! Airbus has no chance to compete against Boeing. Somehow we managed to sell more planes, generate more profits and even push Boeing out of their traditional core market inside the USA and Japan. Airbus reached the market dominance of the world as Nr. 1 seller of airplanes. But we cant break the dominance of the Nr. 2. Wait a minute? lol
> 
> dude your nonsense is so laughable that it makes me laugh. Btw you do realize that turbofan engines are in no way special and are produced in evrywhere in europe? There is a market oligopoly between R&R, P&W and GE. That doesnt mean that two nations own the holy grail of turbofan engines. Turbo fan engines are easy to build, maintain and to develop. evry weastern european nation has the ability to build this. After all its a concept thats over 60 years old. The imagination that this is some "magic" super technology can only come frome someone who is from a developing country. Just a hint for you. Siemens could build you any turbofan engine you want. And so does Alstom SNECMA.
> 
> Maybe Boeing should use its "dominance" to become the nr. 1 producer of airplanes again. they lost this title 14 years ago against airbus. ha ha ha ha



Let me get more straight forward.

As long as France or Germany hasn't mastered the turbofan engine technology, Airbus will have no chance to outcompete against Boeing.

The US/UK will make sure your aerospace industry still lagging behind just like your Galileo.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Let me get more straight forward.
> 
> As long as France or Germany hasn't mastered the turbofan engine technology, Airbus will have no chance to outcompete against Boeing.
> 
> The US/UK will make sure your aerospace industry still lagging behind just like your Galileo.



Germany and france "mastered" the turbofan technology in the 1940th. 

And Airbus did outcompete Boeing in 1998 when it became the market leader on the globe. 

Airbus maintains the market lead in 2013 and prepares its 2014 “roadmap for success” | Airbus News & Events


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> Germany and france "mastered" the turbofan technology in the 1940th.
> 
> And Airbus did outcompete Boeing in 1998 when it became the market leader on the globe.
> 
> Airbus maintains the market lead in 2013 and prepares its 2014 “roadmap for success” | Airbus News & Events



Don't make me laugh.

If you cannot build a F110 class turbofan engine, then you cannot call yourself being mastered.

This is the barometer to measure the success of your jet engine technology.

Maybe we shall ask @Götterdämmerung , why both USA and UK keep restricting Germany to make its own turbofan engine? The cooperation means nothing, and it is just an excuse to keep you under the surveillance and away from being independent.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Don't make me laugh.
> 
> If you cannot build a F110 class turbofan engine, then you cannot call yourself being mastered.
> 
> This is the barometer to measure the success of your jet engine technology.
> 
> Maybe we shall ask @Götterdämmerung , why both USA and UK keep restricting Germany to make its own turbofan engine? The cooperation means nothing, and it is just an excuse to keep you under the surveillance and away from being independent.



You do realize that Siemens generates its main income with turbofan engines?

Beside that why should germany be independend? Thats laughable. The last thing i want is an independend germany. I want a powerful west, NATO and EU. In this system we rule the planet. The last thing i want is a pathetic small germany that stands alone and would be a big switzerland.


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> You do realize that Siemens generates its main income with turbofan engines?
> 
> Beside that why should germany be independend? Thats laughable. The last thing i want is an independend germany. I want a powerful west, NATO and EU. In this system we rule the planet. The last thing i want is a pathetic small germany that stands alone and would be a big switzerland.



Making an individual component doesn't mean to do the whole thing.

Why the US never allows Germany to design/make its own F110 class turbofan jet engine?

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Making an individual component doesn't mean to do the whole thing.
> 
> Why the US never allows Germany to design/make its own F110 class turbofan jet engine?



Why should germany design or make a F110 turbofan engine? germany is a capitalist country. Germany designs nothing nor does it develop anything. Thats the duty of corporations. Why should "Germany" make a F110 Turbofan? Thats a GE product. Why should we copy it? We are not China.

We have the Eurojet Turbo Consortium. It belongs to UK/Germany/Italy/spain and produces the engines for the eurofighter for example. The corporation is german and has its seat in germany.

If you want a pure german turbofan corporation you should look for MTU Aero Engines.

So stick your theories where no light shines. You have no clue what happenes in this branch of industry.

Beside that i find your nationalism outdated and funny.  lol @ independend germany. Why independend germany? What about an independend bavaria? Bavaria is older than germany. Just to show you how laughable your claims are.


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> Why should germany design or make a F110 turbofan engine? germany is a capitalist country. Germany designs nothing nor does it develop anything. Thats the duty of corporations. Why should "Germany" make a F110 Turbofan? Thats a GE product. Why should we copy it? We are not China.
> 
> We have the Eurojet Turbo Consortium. It belongs to UK/Germany/Italy/spain and produces the engines for the eurofighter for example. The corporation is german and has its seat in germany.
> 
> If you want a pure german turbofan corporation you should look for MTU Aero Engines.
> 
> So stick your theories where no light shines. You have no clue what happenes in this branch of industry.
> 
> Beside that i find your nationalism outdated and funny.  lol @ independend germany. Why independend germany? What about an independend bavaria? Bavaria is older than germany. Just to show you how laughable your claims are.



To design a comparable turbofan engine to the F110.

Otherwise, you will never be able to master the entire thing.

BTW, why you wanna see Bavaria to be independent from Germany? Just try to tell this to the real German nationalists and see what would be their reaction.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> To design a comparable turbofan engine to the F110.
> 
> Otherwise, you will never be able to master the entire thing.
> 
> BTW, why you wanna see Bavaria to be independent from Germany? Just try to tell this to the real German nationalists and see what would be their reaction.



I´m european. I don´t see myself as "german". How could i? My mother is italian. 

And to design a similar engine like the F110? Are you kidding me? Serious. Come back when you are serious because this is laughable. A turbofan engine is in no way special. There are more important tasks. Like building a fusion reactor. 

Germany is a member of the EU. Just as Bavaria is a member state of germany. I want a paneuropean "empire" and would allow nobody to impsiron me in a pathetic small country. 

As for "german nationalists". They don´t even make 5% in any vote and are seen as laughable freaks.


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> I´m european. I don´t see myself as "german". How could i? My mother is italian.
> 
> And to design a similar engine like the F110? Are you kidding me? Serious. Come back when you are serious because this is laughable. A turbofan engine is in no way special. There are more important tasks. Like building a fusion reactor.
> 
> Germany is a member of the EU. Just as Bavaria is a member state of germany. I want a paneuropean "empire" and would allow nobody to impsiron me in a pathetic small country.
> 
> As for "german nationalists". They don´t even make 5% in any vote and are seen as laughable freaks.



The turbofan engine is not really super advanced, but all you need is the cumulative experience and skillful workers.

But if you don't make it, then you will always remain null in this particular domain. More work and less talk.

Anyway, Bavarians are always Germans, and they would never be Italians.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The turbofan engine is not really super advanced, but all you need is the cumulative experience and skillful workers.
> 
> But if you don't make it, then you will always remain null in this particular domain. More work and less talk.
> 
> Anyway, Bavarians are always Germans, and they would never be Italians.



We have the cumulative experience and skillful workers. What do you think is my job? 

Anyways "Bavarians" are not always germans. The therm german is a new one and not even existing 180 years ago. Same as Italians who did also not exist as a nation back then but many small kingdoms. This petty small nationalism is laughable.


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> We have the cumulative experience and skillful workers. What do you think is my job?
> 
> Anyways "Bavarians" are not always germans. The therm german is a new one and not even existing 180 years ago. Same as Italians who did also not exist as a nation back then but many small kingdoms. This petty small nationalism is laughable.



To produce in license is different from R&D.

To R&D is like to solve the math problem by yourself, while to produce in license is just like to copy the whole solution, while you still won't understand many tricks in that problem. Anyway, Airbus still depends on the US/UK jet engine is a fact.

BTW, Bavarians always speak a German dialect, of course they are Germans by blood and culture.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> To produce in license is different from R&D.
> 
> To R&D is like to solve the math problem by yourself, while to produce in license is just like to copy the whole solution, while we still won't understand many tricks in that problem. Anyway, Airbus still depends on the US/UK jet engine is a fact.
> 
> BTW, Bavarians always speak a German dialect, of course they are Germans by blood and culture.




solve a math problem in turbo fan engines? Are you kidding me? Thats a current technology that evry single EU member state masters. You must be kidding me. We work on better projects than "turbo fan" engines. Whats next? You claim we are not allowed to make R&D in the horse cab industrial complex?

There is a party in bavaria who wants independence from germany.  What now? There is no german blood and culture. There is only european blood and culture.


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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> solve a math problem in turbo fan engines? Are you kidding me? Thats a current technology that evry single EU member state masters. You must be kidding me. We work on better projects than "turbo fan" engines. Whats next? You claim we are not allowed to make R&D in the horse cab industrial complex?
> 
> There is a party in bavaria who wants independence from germany.  What now? There is no german blood and culture. There is only european blood and culture.



I was just making a comparison.

BTW, so you wanna see Bavaria being independent from Germany? Ask the real German like @Götterdämmerung if he really agree with you.

And as the Brit like @mike2000 if he would agree that the European Scotland being independent from Britain.

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## MarkusS

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I was just making a comparison.
> 
> BTW, so you wanna see Bavaria being independent from Germany? Ask the real German like @Götterdämmerung if he really agree with you.
> 
> And as the Brit like @mike2000 if he would agree that the European Scotland being independent from Britain.




I don´t want see bavaria independend. In the end it doesn´t matter for me which sub state governes it on a regional level as long it belongs to the European Union. Thats my nation and not some petty small state.


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## NiceGuy

terranMarine said:


> That Carlosa dude is a hypocrite that's for sure just like* 55100864* has pointed already.
> Here he is trying to tell us that China must help Russia unconditionally and forget about SCS, the real threat is USA.
> It's no secret he is very pro Vietnam claiming he has lived in USA/China/VN for many years, his anti China posts are all over the place and yet he dare say he is neutral. Even when nihonjin posted a funny picture recently on a thread about China and SCS/VN he immediately attacked him for taking side of China.
> 
> So spare us with the fake acting, China will deal with the situation the Russians are facing right now and at the same time we ain't losing our sights on SCS, especially dealing with out pet. We shall slap the Vietcongs in their face whenever it's necessary.


China will still be OK if u lose some small rocks in SCS(east sea), but China will fall when Russia fall. U cant fight at both front lines now.

Dont forget our Gepard corvette pointed its guns toward ur troops in Gac Ma (SJ reef) in the last trip , we r waiting for your weak time to take our rocks back

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## Carlosa

BuddhaPalm said:


> While Russia and USA are in conflict we will take out our most evil enemy the Viets. We let this tumor continue to infest SE Asia for far too long. Now it's time to reduce Vietnam to mail order brides. Massive invasion, brutal occupation and population control will be the final solution. Thanks to USA for focusing on Russia while leaving Viets to suffer pain.



I can see that you are very smart, wise strategy, good luck with that.


terranMarine said:


> That Carlosa dude is a hypocrite that's for sure just like* 55100864* has pointed already.
> Here he is trying to tell us that China must help Russia unconditionally and forget about SCS, the real threat is USA.
> It's no secret he is very pro Vietnam claiming he has lived in USA/China/VN for many years, his anti China posts are all over the place and yet he dare say he is neutral. Even when nihonjin posted a funny picture recently on a thread about China and SCS/VN he immediately attacked him for taking side of China.
> 
> So spare us with the fake acting, China will deal with the situation the Russians are facing right now and at the same time we ain't losing our sights on SCS, especially dealing with out pet. We shall slap the Vietcongs in their face whenever it's necessary.



When did I say I was neutral? What fake acting? Did I say that I like china's polices in SCS or that I switched to the chinese side or that I've found my lost love for china?

The Ukraine / Russian situation is a totally different subject and what I said about that applies specifically to that subject and to china ONLY in relation to that subject. I would expect that you guys were smart enough to see that and I wrongly expected also that most of you can rise above the local differences when talking about other subjects, but I guess not.
You guys are too narrow minded. Well, no problem for me, PDF does not make any difference anyway.

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## mike2000

sahaliyan said:


> Well said,Russians are not our friends,and never will be one



Ahahahahahahahah.......LMAO at least some Chinese members on here are beginning to see reality and know how geo politics works/is played out between big Powers. Though some Naive Chinese(and even more so Indian and Vietnamese) members on here still believe Russia is their 'true/all weather friend' like one Indian member on here said before. There is no such thing as friends in geo politics and never will they be. So Russia isnt not a friend to China, but also Russia is not a 'friend' to India and Vietnam as well(though the two later seem to be the most active Russia is our best friend supporters on here.). Russia only thinks about itself first and foremost(just like nay major power does/should do). Friendship is between individuals/civilians not countries/politicians from rival countries.The earlier people on here understand that, the better.

Its true for now Russia and China interests seem to match in their respective region/sphere of influence, where theyw ant to decrease U.S involvement/influence. So its true in this regard i will agree with my friend Chinese dragon, China assisting/cooperating/partnering much more with Russia will be in its own interest as well. Since collapse Russia similar to U.S.S.R 2.0 will be a disaster not only for Russia first and foremost, but also for China, since there will be no real/major power with whom China shares similar world views/interests to counter the 'evil' west/U.S from containing it even further/targeting it. For now, Russia(and middle east islamists) are all giving more time for the Chinese to take more of U.S attention away from them. So this situation is good for China ironically.lol


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## StarCraft_ZT

China Ministry of Foreign Affairs: We will help Russia within our ability； if Russia need, China can help. I agree with Chinese government's ideas, I trust them.

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## mike2000

sahaliyan said:


> Russians have better relation with Vietnam and India than China,no?Russians don't trust China,if China suffers in the future,they will not give a damn,deal with it,no one know better of Russians than people of northeast China



Well on this one, its not really the case per se. Russia has just a normal buyer -seller relationship with Vietnam obviously and to some extent India as well. Apart from that, they have nothing much in common. So why will Russia foresake billion of much needed dollars/cash for its defence industry because of China or any other country for that matter?lol The truth is Russia is simply doing what any power will do in their position to be honest. With China, is kind of different, after the collpase of the Soviet Union, China also had an exclusively Buyer-seller relationship with Moscow like its the case with India and Vietnam today. But with time as China defence industry matured, and they grew more bigger/powerful(and we west eventually saw a danger from them as well)., the relationship changed, with Russia also emerging from its collapse and being increasingly anti western. So both now have much interest/ennemy in common, and military deals are now a minor part of this relationship(apart from Engine sales). 

So in short, its not like Russia has better relationshipm with India or even less Vietnma than it does with China. In the event of a conflict/war between China against any of the two i mentioned(though very unlikely to happen), Russia wont choose either side, they will just remain silent, and make usual peaceful comments like 'we hope both relevant countries should sit down and solve their issues peacefully' , thats if they say anything at all(also depends on India and Vietnam not getting closer to us in the West/U.S though, as if they do, then Russia will support China in such an event). So its a complex game thats been played. Nothing like 'FRIENDS' in it.


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## jhungary

mike2000 said:


> Well on this one, its not really the case per se. Russia has just a normal buyer -seller relationship with Vietnam obviously and to some extent India as well. Apart from that, they have nothing much in common. So why will Russia foresake billion of much needed dollars/cash for its defence industry because of China or any other country for that matter?lol The truth is Russia is simply doing what any power will do in their position to be honest. With China, is kind of different, after the collpase of the Soviet Union, China also had an exclusively Buyer-seller relationship with Moscow like its the case with India and Vietnam today. But with time as China defence industry matured, and they grew more bigger/powerful(and we west eventually saw a danger from them as well)., the relationship changed, with Russia also emerging from its collapse and being increasingly anti western. So both now have much interest/ennemy in common, and military deals are now a minor part of this relationship(apart from Engine sales).
> 
> So in short, its not like Russia has better relationshipm with India or even less Vietnma than it does with China. In the event of a conflict/war between China against any of the two i mentioned(though very unlikely to happen), Russia wont choose either side, they will just remain silent, and make usual peaceful comments like 'we hope both relevant countries should sit down and solve their issues peacefully' , thats if they say anything at all(also depends on India and Vietnam not getting closer to us in the West/U.S though, as if they do, then Russia will support China in such an event). So its a complex game thats been played. Nothing like 'FRIENDS' in it.



I still don't understand why Chinese member think helping Russia equal to helping themselves.

Look though some of the post, some even said doing so will push Russia away from the west. Well, as far as I can see it, Russia never really close to west, yes, the West Traded with Russian, but theey are never part of the "West Bloc" like some suggested.

Should China help Russia? Only if there are profit to make, but right now the way I sees it, helping Russia mean you have to put in resource and money to them and without any short term profits. Basically Russia cannot afford Chinese product, even at the low price there are. As for long term benefits, if I were any Chinese living in China I would not expect Russian Help the next time around when West have anything to do in China. For the Russia, they only join the fight if it's benefits them, not if its benefit China, it would be naïve to say Helping Russia Now equate to Helping China later, in fact, looking back at history, I would call it blessing if Russia did not comeback and bite China in the *** when China is in any sort of trouble.

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## Lux de Veritas

xunzi said:


> Between Russia and USA, who is the bigger threat to our existence? The answer is pretty obvious, the USA! But it is also the USA that can help in our development. We are walking in a tight rope, a very thin rope I must say. It is important that we don't get drag into either side but to play the neutral role, a mediator role between Russia and the West. After all, if push comes to shove, Russia has enough nuke to destroy the world. I also don't believe the West got the ball to **** with Russia/China because we are too powerful and we can destroy them, too. The real battle is on the economic level as you can already see. The West seek to suffocate Russia with their advance technology and dominant in the global economic system. They can do the same to us, although it would be tougher as we are far more advance than Russia in industrial technology and we also happen to be the West's creditor. So they need us, just as much as we need them to continue development.





jhungary said:


> I still don't understand why Chinese member think helping Russia equal to helping themselves.
> 
> Look though some of the post, some even said doing so will push Russia away from the west. Well, as far as I can see it, Russia never really close to west, yes, the West Traded with Russian, but theey are never part of the "West Bloc" like some suggested.
> 
> Should China help Russia? Only if there are profit to make, but right now the way I sees it, helping Russia mean you have to put in resource and money to them and without any short term profits. Basically Russia cannot afford Chinese product, even at the low price there are. As for long term benefits, if I were any Chinese living in China I would not expect Russian Help the next time around when West have anything to do in China. For the Russia, they only join the fight if it's benefits them, not if its benefit China, it would be naïve to say Helping Russia Now equate to Helping China later, in fact, looking back at history, I would call it blessing if Russia did not comeback and bite China in the *** when China is in any sort of trouble.



Many PDF PRC have studied too little and many can even claim USA is threat to their existence. On the contrary, it was Russia who take the most land from China. But PDF PRC traitor lick up Russia.

When Russia become strong, the whole inner Manchuria and Xinjiang will be destablilized.

A weak Russia is good for China. Initially Kazakhstan want to be Russia lackey. But after Russia in the shit hole as of today, Kazakhstan was in deep shit as well, having Tenge plunge around 20%.

And to compensate Kazakhstan get increasingly closer to China.

You guys can never wet dream going back to Central Asia with a strong Russia around.


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## jhungary

Lux de Veritas said:


> Many PDF PRC have studied too little and many can even claim USA is threat to their existence. On the contrary, it was Russia who take the most land from China. But PDF PRC traitor lick up Russia.
> 
> When Russia become strong, the whole inner Manchuria and Xinjiang will be destablilized.
> 
> A weak Russia is good for China. Initially Kazakhstan want to be Russia lackey. But after Russia in the shit hole as of today, Kazakhstan was in deep shit as well, having Tenge plunge around 20%.
> 
> And to compensate Kazakhstan get increasingly closer to China.
> 
> You guys can never wet dream going back to Central Asia with a strong Russia around.



The answer to your question is simple, that's because Russian is also anti-west, so whoever is the enemy of my enemy is my friend, by that logic Russia is a friend of China.

This logic only have one flaw, that's Russian does not see it like the way Chinese saw it. In fact, during the last 200 years, we keep seeing Russian Changing side, used up and throw out their friends time and time again, even the evil America have not been doing something like that that often.

We saw them changing side from France to Britain and back to France and back to Britain during the Napoleonwar. Then First and Second Schleswig War. (Where the first one support the Dane, second one throw out the Dane) then WW1, then WW2 when they are still holding chunk of Manchuria and finally who can forget the Russia backstab China in the 60s and 70s and push the Chinese back toward the American?

A strong Russia only benefit Russia, it will not benefit China. In fact, there are no border exist between USA and Russia, but there is an actual border exist between Russia and China. a strong China is actually sees as a threat to Russia, so people here are quite naïve to think helping out Russian is helping out Chinese.

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## Lux de Veritas

These PDF PRC are crazy enough to think that it is good to have a rich and powerful, neighbours at their backyard who have historically swallowed up much of China.

They are really shallow not to see that the Russian race is very imperialistic. A Russia clashing with USA is God send to China.

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## NiceGuy

bolo said:


> this is not about friendship. Some members think Russia is all nice and all. They have stolen Chinese lands, threatened China at her most vulnerable times, supported india and even threatened to use nukes.
> 
> If Russia want Chinese help they need to give Chinese more in return in the form of engine tech, better deal on oil/gas and some land. I think and hope CPC will extend help once Russia is on her knees.


Russia is just like NK, they know clearly that if China dont give aid, then when they fall, China will fall,too.

So, China should keep giving aid unconditionally as usual. Russia-NK will never come to China and ask for help


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## Aepsilons

jhungary said:


> I still don't understand why Chinese member think helping Russia equal to helping themselves.
> 
> Look though some of the post, some even said doing so will push Russia away from the west. Well, as far as I can see it, Russia never really close to west, yes, the West Traded with Russian, but theey are never part of the "West Bloc" like some suggested.
> 
> Should China help Russia? Only if there are profit to make, but right now the way I sees it, helping Russia mean you have to put in resource and money to them and without any short term profits. Basically Russia cannot afford Chinese product, even at the low price there are. As for long term benefits, if I were any Chinese living in China I would not expect Russian Help the next time around when West have anything to do in China. For the Russia, they only join the fight if it's benefits them, not if its benefit China, it would be naïve to say Helping Russia Now equate to Helping China later, in fact, looking back at history, I would call it blessing if Russia did not comeback and bite China in the *** when China is in any sort of trouble.



I'm a skeptic whenever analyzing a scenario of a 'comprehensive alliance' between Russia and China, simply on the fact that both powers have greater ambitions. From an objective perspective I see both Russia and China complementing each other right now on the basis of the following parameters:

1) Energy security
2) Geopolitical correspondence 
3) Strategic consolidation 
4) Financial Security 

Right now, at the current epoch, China has the upper hand in, well, everything, when comparing the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing. Economically speaking the Chinese have a substantially larger economy, diversified economic portfolio, greater diplomatic clout (SCO, AIIB, WTO, et al), larger population. Russia's only upper hand would be energy supplies, which it has an enviable abundance of, and to which is needed to fuel China's continued industrialization and manufacturing and domestic demand. 

Other than that, what does Russia provide to China? Technology? China is able to create its own 5th generation fighter : J31, J20. China is able to develop its own AEGIS destroyers: Type 052 Ds; China is able to develop and field its own air craft carrier: The Liaoning Class; China is able to field its own nuclear submarine: Type 091, Type 093, Type 094. What about space technology? China is not dependent on Russia as the former has an active and productive CNSA (China National Space Administration). Software capabilities? China has proven its capabilities with ALIBABA, Xiaomi, Lenovo et al. There really isn't anything Russia can do (or make) that China cannot do on her own. 

So...



Best,
@Nihonjin1051

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## Lux de Veritas

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm a skeptic whenever analyzing a scenario of a 'comprehensive alliance' between Russia and China, simply on the fact that both powers have greater ambitions. From an objective perspective I see both Russia and China complementing each other right now on the basis of the following parameters:
> 
> 1) Energy security
> 2) Geopolitical correspondence
> 3) Strategic consolidation
> 4) Financial Security
> 
> Right now, at the current epoch, China has the upper hand in, well, everything, when comparing the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing. Economically speaking the Chinese have a substantially larger economy, diversified economic portfolio, greater diplomatic clout (SCO, AIIB, WTO, et al), larger population. Russia's only upper hand would be energy supplies, which it has an enviable abundance of, and to which is needed to fuel China's continued industrialization and manufacturing and domestic demand.
> 
> Other than that, what does Russia provide to China? Technology? China is able to create its own 5th generation fighter : J31, J20. China is able to develop its own AEGIS destroyers: Type 052 Ds; China is able to develop and field its own air craft carrier: The Liaoning Class; China is able to field its own nuclear submarine: Type 091, Type 093, Type 094. What about space technology? China is not dependent on Russia as the former has an active and productive CNSA (China National Space Administration). Software capabilities? China has proven its capabilities with ALIBABA, Xiaomi, Lenovo et al. There really isn't anything Russia can do (or make) that China cannot do on her own.
> 
> So...
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> @Nihonjin1051



There is no future for Japan if she is ally for USA. The East Asian future is East Asia. Period. The Japan leaders in WW2 knew that.

The white man dormant antagonism against East Asian is quite high (and partly the rise of China contribute to it).


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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm a skeptic whenever analyzing a scenario of a 'comprehensive alliance' between Russia and China, simply on the fact that both powers have greater ambitions. From an objective perspective I see both Russia and China complementing each other right now on the basis of the following parameters:
> 
> 1) Energy security
> 2) Geopolitical correspondence
> 3) Strategic consolidation
> 4) Financial Security
> 
> Right now, at the current epoch, China has the upper hand in, well, everything, when comparing the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing. Economically speaking the Chinese have a substantially larger economy, diversified economic portfolio, greater diplomatic clout (SCO, AIIB, WTO, et al), larger population. Russia's only upper hand would be energy supplies, which it has an enviable abundance of, and to which is needed to fuel China's continued industrialization and manufacturing and domestic demand.
> 
> Other than that, what does Russia provide to China? Technology? China is able to create its own 5th generation fighter : J31, J20. China is able to develop its own AEGIS destroyers: Type 052 Ds; China is able to develop and field its own air craft carrier: The Liaoning Class; China is able to field its own nuclear submarine: Type 091, Type 093, Type 094. What about space technology? China is not dependent on Russia as the former has an active and productive CNSA (China National Space Administration). Software capabilities? China has proven its capabilities with ALIBABA, Xiaomi, Lenovo et al. There really isn't anything Russia can do (or make) that China cannot do on her own.
> 
> So...
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> @Nihonjin1051


China cant make a reliable jet engine yet. Without Russian's engine, China AF is just a joke.

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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm a skeptic whenever analyzing a scenario of a 'comprehensive alliance' between Russia and China, simply on the fact that both powers have greater ambitions. From an objective perspective I see both Russia and China complementing each other right now on the basis of the following parameters:
> 
> 1) Energy security
> *2) Geopolitical correspondence *
> 3) Strategic consolidation
> 4) Financial Security
> 
> Right now, at the current epoch, China has the upper hand in, well, everything, when comparing the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing. Economically speaking the Chinese have a substantially larger economy, diversified economic portfolio, greater diplomatic clout (SCO, AIIB, WTO, et al), larger population. Russia's only upper hand would be energy supplies, which it has an enviable abundance of, and to which is needed to fuel China's continued industrialization and manufacturing and domestic demand.
> 
> Other than that, what does Russia provide to China? Technology? China is able to create its own 5th generation fighter : J31, J20. China is able to develop its own AEGIS destroyers: Type 052 Ds; China is able to develop and field its own air craft carrier: The Liaoning Class; China is able to field its own nuclear submarine: Type 091, Type 093, Type 094. What about space technology? China is not dependent on Russia as the former has an active and productive CNSA (China National Space Administration). Software capabilities? China has proven its capabilities with ALIBABA, Xiaomi, Lenovo et al. There really isn't anything Russia can do (or make) that China cannot do on her own.
> 
> So...
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> @Nihonjin1051



I agree on all points. Of the four points, I guess the second is the most important, and that's the underlying rationale for China-Russia cooperation. Geopolitics often trumps over short-term material gains. Hence, even if it means losing some money, China will continue to stand by Russia as the geopolitics dictates so.

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## TaiShang

*What Putin is not Telling Us: The Raid on the Ruble was supposed to be a Checkmate. It’s Not*
By Pepe Escobar
Global Research, December 20, 2014






_Even facing what under any circumstances is a perfect storm; President Putin delivered an extremely measured performance at his annual press conference and Q&A marathon_.

The perfect storm evolves in two fronts; an overt economic war – as in siege by sanctions – and a concerted, covert, shadow attack to the heart of the Russian economy. Washington’s endgame is clear: impoverish and defang the adversary and force him to meekly bow to the _‘Empire of Chaos’_s’ whims. And bragging about it all the way to “victory.”

*The problem is Moscow happens to have impeccably deciphered the game – even before Putin, at the Valdai Club in October, pinned down the Obama doctrine as “our Western partners” working as practitioners of the “theory of controlled chaos.”*

So Putin neatly understood this week’s monster controlled chaos attack. The Empire has massive money power; a great deal of influence over the world’s GDP at $85 trillion, and the banking power behind that. So nothing easier than using that power through the private banking systems that actually controls central banks to create a run on the ruble. Think about the _‘Empire of Chaos’_ dreaming of driving the ruble down by 99% or so – thus wrecking the Russian economy. What better way to impose imperial discipline on Russia?

*The “Nuclear” Option*

Russia sells oil in US dollars to the West. Lukoil, for instance, would have a deposit in US dollars in an American bank for the oil they sell. If Lukoil has to pay wages in rubles in Russia, then they will have to sell the US dollar deposits and buy in Russia a ruble deposit for their bank account. This in effect supports the ruble. The question is whether Lukoil, Rosneft and Gazprom are hoarding US dollars overseas – and holding back. The answer is no. And the same applies to other Russian businesses.

*Russia is not “losing their savings”, as Western corporate media gloats. Russia can always require foreign companies to relocate to Russia. Apple, for instance, may open a manufacturing plant in Russia. The recent Russia-China deals include the Chinese building factories in Russia. With a depreciated ruble, Russia is able to force manufacturing that might have been located in the EU to be located in Russia; otherwise these companies lose the market. Putin somewhat admitted that Russia should have been demanding this much earlier. The – positive – process is now inevitable.*

And then there’s a _“nuclear”_ option – which Putin didn’t even have to mention. If Russia decides to impose capital controls and/or imposes a _“holiday”_ on repayment of larger debt tranches coming due in early 2015, the European financial system will be bombed – Shock and Awe-style; after all, much of the Russian bank and corporate funding was underwritten in Europe.

Exposure to Russia per se is not the issue; what matters is the linkage to European banks. As an American investment banker told me, Lehman Brothers, for instance, brought down Europe just as much as New York City – based on inter-linkages. And yet Lehman was based in New York. It’s the domino effect that counts.

Were Russia to deploy this _“nuclear”_ financial option, the Western financial system would not be able to absorb a shock of default. And that would demonstrate – once and for all – that Wall Street speculators have built a _‘House of Cards’_ so fragile and corrupt that the first real storm turns it to dust.

*It’s Just a Shot Away*

And what if Russia defaults – creating a holy mess out of the country’s $600 billion debt? This scenario reads as the Masters of the Universe telling Janet Yellen and Mario Draghi to create credits in the banking systems to prevent _“undue damage”_ - as in 2008.

*But then Russia decides to cut off natural gas and oil from the West (while keeping the flow to the East). Russian intel may wreak non-stop havoc in pumping stations from the Maghreb to the Middle East. Russia may block all the oil and natural gas pumped in the Central Asian ‘stans’. The result: the greatest financial collapse in history. And the end of the ‘Empire of Chaos’s’ exceptionalist panacea.*

Of course this is a doomsday scenario. But don’t provoke the bear, because the bear could pull that off in a flash.

*Putin was so cool, calm, collected – and eager to delve into details – at his press conference because he knows Moscow is able to move in total autonomy. This is – of course – an asymmetrical war – against a crumbling, dangerous empire. **What those intellectual midgets swarming the lame duck Obama administration are thinking?* That they can sell American – and world – public opinion the notion Washington (European poodles, actually) will brave nuclear war, in the European theater, in the name of failed state Ukraine?

This is a chess game. The raid on the ruble was supposed to be a checkmate. It’s not. Not when deployed by amateur scrabble players. And don’t forget the Russia-China strategic partnership. The storm may be abating, but the match continues.

*Beijing willing to assist Moscow*




Foreign Minister Wang Yi [Photo/Xinhua]

*China's top diplomat is offering Beijing's assistance to Moscow, as pessimism is spreading about the uncertainties of the Russian economy.*

With the Kremlin vowing to address Russia's dependence on oil and gas, more teamwork with China in non-energy sectors may help, but the key "lies in the hands of Moscow itself", analysts said.

Following the drastic drop of oil prices, the Russian rouble plummeted on Tuesday and has lost nearly 50 percent against the US dollar and the euro since March.

Foreign Minister Wang Yi told reporters on Saturday that "Russia has the capability and the wisdom to overcome the existing hardship in the economic situation".

*"If the Russian side needs, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity," Wang said.*

Wang said China and Russia have been consistently supporting and helping each other.

Feng Yujun, a senior analyst of Russian studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, estimated that "the hardest time for the Russian economy is just kicking off, with the upcoming three years clouded by major challenges".

The researcher pointed to a strengthening US dollar, and said emerging economies including Russia will suffer more as money increasingly flows back to the US.

A major turnaround of the suffering economy "requires a range of measures to take effect", Feng said.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday at an annual end-of-year news conference in Moscow that cooperation with China is one of the cornerstones of Russia's economic recovery and prosperity.

Zhang Deguang, a former Chinese ambassador to Russia, said Moscow has foreign currency reserves totaling hundreds of billions of dollars, and with such support the Russian economy "is still far away from being totally paralyzed".

Li Jianmin, a researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, suggested that China's assistance be provided through mechanisms including the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and BRICS.

Earlier this month, when Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev met in Astana, Kazakhstan, with Premier Li Keqiang, they agreed on enhancing cooperation in railways, infrastructure and the development of Russia's Far East region.

Loans, cooperation in major projects and participation in the domestic infrastructure investment in Russia are options on the table, Li added.

Qin Gang, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, told a news conference in Beijing on Thursday, "Please do not forget that China and Russia are highly complementary in the economic field, with broad areas and huge potential for cooperation."

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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> China cant make a reliable jet engine yet. Without Russian's engine, China AF is just a joke.



I think that is a foolish and mundane thing to say. Never, ever underestimate the Chinese.

We are talking about China here, the Progenitor of East Asian Confucian culture. We are referring to a civilization state that has existed unbroken for 5 millennia. Not some miniscule , insignificant 3rd world state.



TaiShang said:


> I agree on all points. Of the four points, I guess the second is the most important, and that's the underlying rationale for China-Russia cooperation. Geopolitics often trumps over short-term material gains. Hence, even if it means losing some money, China will continue to stand by Russia as the geopolitics dictates so.



To be honest, I am just marveled, awed at the shear diplomatic capability of the Chinese. From its initiative to be a leader of the developing world by working with nations from Africa et al during the 1950s, 1960s, to now consolidating her clout through the conduit of power vis-a-vis SCO, AIIB, the Chinese have proven themselves a worthy competitor of IMF, as well as even the US-led NATO body. 

China's success is due in part to its utilitarian view. Early on in 1978 the Chinese had adopted market capitalism and opened itself to the west (unlike the former Soviet Union) and absorbed as much it could from the West. The Chinese' non-interventionalist approach led it to win the confidence of the West and thus she is able to develop ties , irrespective of geopolitic. This is what differentiates China from Russia; whereas the Russians are hostile to the West and rather mitigated in developing greater ties with developing states, the Chinese are contrary. They concede to points by the West, even implement policies and procedures suggested by her Western partners ergo, anti-corruption policies, prosecute graft to the maximum extent (as per Chinese Law), made necessary editions to Chinese Corporate Law. 

China, in my personal opinion, has the capability to become a credible Superpower, definitely. She has shown, through her policies, that she's not above compromise, has shown her shear good will in committing massive capital to alleviating a common threat , ergo, the Ebola Health Initiative, sending the Peace Ark to the Philippines after Typhoon Haiyan 2013, sending medical supplies to Japan post 2011 Tsunami, sending health supplies to Indonesia after the Asian 2004 Tsunami, et al. 

In various axes, China, to me, scores above Russia. And thus my confidence is in China. I only hope that China remains non-interventionist and does not forgoe its deep, functioning and mutually beneficial relationship with the West, Japan over other powers.

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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> In various axes, China, to me, scores above Russia. And thus my confidence is in China.* I only hope that China remains non-interventionist and does not forgoe its deep, functioning and mutually beneficial relationship with the West, Japan over other power*s.



Thank you for the very powerful post, my friend. I agree with all the points. As particularly for the point you made above, I guess this article below gives a clue about how far China's strategic thinking goes.

China needs to assist Russia, but not in the slightest sense be seen as "helping." 

The world is neither entirely white nor black. I guess strategic flexibility should enable great nations such as China and Japan to play the multilateral game called foreign policy with relative success and full dignity.

*How long can Russia withstand the crisis?*
Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-22 0:08:01

Unlike the image many people hold of Russia, it is neither a powerhouse that embraced the NSA whistle-blower Edward Snowden and annexed Crimea, nor a feeble country as evidenced by the plummeting ruble. The truth of Russia's situation is unclear to many people, both in the West and China. 

The Russian economy is overly dependent on crude oil exports, and this ongoing crisis proves that it is not easy for Russia to be an extra-large Saudi Arabia. Some people suggest that Russia should learn from Canada and Australia, which have managed to transform huge reserves of natural resources into fortunes. However, due to Russia's large population of 140 million people, its modernity and strong currency cannot be solely supported by oil, gas and timber.

Western sanctions cannot be the straw that breaks the back of Russia. This old trick has proven much less effective even in smaller countries like Cuba and Iran. That is why Russia's annexation of Crimea only left the US and Europe impotent earlier this year. The ongoing crisis engulfing Russia in the wake of plummeting oil prices and the ruble depreciating is probably not what the US had planned. For Washington, what is happening in Russia is more or less unexpected. 

Vladimir Putin's reign can hardly be overturned simply by currency inflation. Russia has experienced many ups and downs, and it has the tenacity to withstand risks and dangers.

However, many of Putin's visions, such as vaulting Russia to the top five in terms of economic strength by 2020 can hardly be realized now. Russia's morale and unity might fall victim to these failures, and the long-term stability of Russian politics is uncertain.

*China's help will not get Russia completely off the hook. China is capable of offering sufficient capital, technologies and markets to Russia, but these efforts can only take limited effect if Russia's economy still relies heavily on oil exports and lacks structural diversity.*

If Chinese investment in Russia shoots up under these circumstances, Moscow might suspect China has ulterior motives. *Russia does not want to be a vassal of the Chinese economy, and this red line must be clearly understood by China.*

It doesn't mean China should give Russia the cold shoulder and involve itself with the West. As a close neighbor, Russia plays an indispensable role as a strategic partner of China in the international community. China must hold a positive attitude to help Russia out of this crisis.

China must act as an active mediator between Russia and the US, or it will have to face unavoidable geopolitical risks if their conflict spirals out of control. 

China hopes Russia can regain its economic strength as soon as possible. But anything we can do to help will be limited to what Russia asks for.

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I think that is a foolish and mundane thing to say. Never, ever underestimate the Chinese.
> 
> We are talking about China here, the Progenitor of East Asian Confucian culture. We are referring to a civilization state that has existed unbroken for 5 millennia. Not some miniscule , insignificant 3rd world state.


Its just bcz u overestimate China, not bcz I underestimate them. So, pls tell me what can China AF do when they dont have Russia engine ??

I said already, China or East Asian Confucian culture is just like old Nokia phone or Sony company. Thats the best in the past, but it's gone now. Thats why VN dont keep thats culture any more.


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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> Its just bcz u overestimate China, not bcz I underestimate them. So, pls tell me what can China AF do when they dont have Russia engine ??
> 
> I said already, China or East Asian Confucian culture is just like old Nokia phone or Sony company. Thats the best in the past, but it's gone now. Thats why VN dont keep thats culture any more.



Your vehement anti-Chinese stance clouds your judgement to making any objective analysis regarding China. Be more objective, please.

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Your vehement anti-Chinese stance clouds your judgement to making any objective analysis regarding China. Be more objective, please.


Okay, then pls answer me: what can China AF do when they dont have Russia engine ??


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## Lux de Veritas

NiceGuy said:


> Its just bcz u overestimate China, not bcz I underestimate them. So, pls tell me what can China AF do when they dont have Russia engine ??
> 
> I said already, China or East Asian Confucian culture is just like old Nokia phone or Sony company. Thats the best in the past, but it's gone now. Thats why VN dont keep thats culture any more.



Well said, personally I am sick of Confucius ethic also. I am sick of licking up my boss and in the culture of promoting people base on PR skills rather than capability. I am sick of society recognizing the rich as capable and virtuous that in reality the rich may be a crook or some lucky sperm.

But you may have over under estimate East Asian culture. Right now in USA society, people are screwing one another, taking drug and the whole society is breaking down.

I would say the Germanic and Israel society is somehow better.

If the Confucius society can get rid of her noxious part, I am sure we will be No 1 in the whole world.



NiceGuy said:


> Okay, then pls answer me: what can China AF do when they dont have Russia engine ??



Its time Vietnamese dump their chopstick if they hate Chinese culture so much....

I bet you wont. Try eating with folk and spoon only.

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## NiceGuy

Lux de Veritas said:


> Well said, personally I am sick of Confucius ethic also. I am sick of licking up my boss and in the culture of promoting people base on PR skills rather than capability. I am sick of ,y society recognizing the rich as capable and virtuous that in reality the rich may be a crook or some lucky sperm.
> 
> But you may have over under estimate East Asian culture. Right now in USA society, people are screwing one another, taking drug and the whole society is breaking down.
> 
> I would say the Germanic and Israel society is somehow better.


Capitalist society will collapse, thats what Karl Max said, so it makes No surprise when US also having lots of problem when under the Wall st. tycoon's control. Its time for US society to move to the next stage: the communist society.

VN-China-Soviet was and r not a true communist country czo we r not developed nations like UK-US.



Lux de Veritas said:


> Its time Vietnamese dump their chopstick if they hate Chinese culture so much....
> 
> I bet you wont. Try eating with folk and spoon only.


Why ?? I hate US so do I have to dump my Android phone coz Android OS belong to US ??


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## Lux de Veritas

NiceGuy said:


> Capitalist society will collapse, thats what Karl Max said, so it makes No surprise when US also having lots of problem when under the Wall st. tycoon's control. Its time for US society to move to the next stage: the communist society.
> 
> VN-China-Soviet was and r not a true communist country czo we r not developed nations like UK-US.



The Chinese society however bad, will take care of her people once she reach a certain level of prosperity. The Chinese society believe in building infrastructure.

Go to USA and see the Anglo Saxon would prefer their bridge and buildings to rot, so long that the rich cannot profit out of it, they wont repair it.

One salient point of East Asian culture, that we may perceive as "bad" is East Asians are willing to sacrifice generations and generations of people, even bleeding them dry in war, in order for future generation to benefit. If you belongs to that generation, you are dead meat.

China basically sacrifice the generations of people, most recently during the post 1978. Those Post 1978 adults are thrown into capitalist sweat shop, so that future generation will benefit.

Right now as China has accumulated some wealth, she is already starting to build some social security.

My country leaders who are peranakan are anglicized and they subscribe to shitty capitalism. It was the Chinese culture of the people who put a brake on them. My leaders keep telling us why we must not help the old, but they point them the 3rd finger.

You born in USA as a black, the white will let you rot on your own.


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## NiceGuy

Lux de Veritas said:


> The Chinese society however bad, will take care of her people once she reach a certain level of prosperity. The Chinese society believe in building infrastructure.
> 
> Go to USA and see the Anglo Saxon would prefer their bridge and buildings to rot, so long that the rich cannot profit out of it, they wont repair it.
> 
> .


Its the bad aspect of capitalist system, thats why poor and oppressed people must stand up and overthrow that system and start building better system such as Communist society. If poor US people dont stand up and fight for a better society, then thats their false.


> One salient point of East Asian culture, that we may perceive as "bad" is East Asians are willing to sacrifice generations and generations of people, even bleeding them dry in war, in order for future generation to benefit. If you belongs to that generation, you are dead meat.
> 
> China basically sacrifice the generations of people, most recently during the post 1978. Those Post 1978 adults are thrown into capitalist sweat shop, so that future generation will benefit.
> 
> Right now as China has accumulated some wealth, she is already starting to build some social security.
> 
> My country leaders who are peranakan are anglicized and they subscribe to shitty capitalism. It was the Chinese culture of the people who put a brake on them. My leaders keep telling us why we must not help the old, but they point them the 3rd finger.


Russia-Jew also do the same to their next generation.


> You born in USA as a black, the white will let you rot on your own.


Then , its time for black and poor US guys to build a communist society.


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## hans

Current capitalist countries would use global trading to solve this issue..
Transfer the low end industries out to poor countries.
Buy products from these countries at low price and sell high end products at high price.
Then the whole capitalist country is middle class or richer with less trouble.
High income low cost..



NiceGuy said:


> Its the bad aspect of capitalist system, thats why poor and oppressed people must stand up and overthrow that system and start building better system such as Communist society. If poor US people dont stand up and fight for a better society, then thats their false.
> 
> Russia-Jew also do the same to their next generation.
> 
> Then , its time for black and poor US guys to build a communist society.

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## Lux de Veritas

NiceGuy said:


> Its the bad aspect of capitalist system, thats why poor and oppressed people must stand up and overthrow that system and start building better system such as Communist society. If poor US people dont stand up and fight for a better society, then thats their false.
> 
> Russia-Jew also do the same to their next generation.
> 
> Then , its time for black and poor US guys to build a communist society.



Never mind how much I good thing I say for Chinese society, it is still a piece of shit, that I must admit. And white man society today is far better, but I am not sure about tomorrow.

But we have to admit we are still far better than Islamofascist and Indian caste-ist society.

You step out of Delhi airport for a few km, first thing you see is SHIT. Its SHIT literally.

The Japanese society is slightly better. Japanese are far more honest and honorable. Taiwan is quite good.

Korean is bad. I went Vietnam of business trip many times and I think it is no good also.

The key is we need to get rid of the noxious effect of Confucius-ism to create a better world. I think we are no 2 or no3 civilization, probably behind western and jewish.

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## NiceGuy

Lux de Veritas said:


> Never mind how much I good thing I say for Chinese society, it is still a piece of shit, that I must admit. And white man society today is far better, but I am not sure about tomorrow.
> 
> But we have to admit we are still far better than Islamofascist and Indian caste-ist society.
> 
> You step out of Delhi airport for a few km, first thing you see is SHIT. Its SHIT literally.
> 
> The Japanese society is slightly better. Japanese are far more honest and honorable. Taiwan is quite good.
> 
> Korean is bad. I went Vietnam of business trip many times and I think it is no good also.
> 
> The key is we need to get rid of the noxious effect of Confucius-ism to create a better world. I think we are no 2 or no3 civilization, probably behind western and jewish.


Yep , Asia is lag behind Europe mostly bcz of Confucius culture. Its just like Nokia and Sony in the past, we were satisfied wt what we got when the West still keep moving forward, so we r dumped now.

Protecting Confucius culture is just like protecting Nokia or Sony, and the West will be so happy to keep dominating us for centuries ahead

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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> Yep , Asia is lag behind Europe mostly bcz of Confucius culture. Its just like Nokia and Sony in the past, we were satisfied wt what we got when the West still keep moving forward, so we r dumped now.
> 
> Protecting Confucius culture is just like protecting Nokia or Sony, and the West will be so happy to keep dominating us for centuries ahead



I find your defeatist and fatalistic attitude quite vexing.

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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I find your defeatist and fatalistic attitude quite vexing.


We have different thinking, what I think is good may not good in ur thought.Thats normal.

But its True that Sony is dying now, maybe JP also have lots of AH Q when trying to think Sony is still the best

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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> But its True that Sony is dying now, maybe JP also have lots of AH Q when trying to think Sony is still the best



It is just unfortunate that Sony had to play right into the US playbook by producing that politically-motivated B-rate comedy. 

If Sony is to have a turn-around, it is here, right at homer in East Asia. 

Sony should not be a cheap pawn in the hands of US state-endorsed media to score cheap shots against an unfortunate country that has already suffered a lot. 

I would like to read Sony news in technology section of the newspaper, not US politics section. 

@Nihonjin1051

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## jhungary

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm a skeptic whenever analyzing a scenario of a 'comprehensive alliance' between Russia and China, simply on the fact that both powers have greater ambitions. From an objective perspective I see both Russia and China complementing each other right now on the basis of the following parameters:
> 
> 1) Energy security
> 2) Geopolitical correspondence
> 3) Strategic consolidation
> 4) Financial Security
> 
> Right now, at the current epoch, China has the upper hand in, well, everything, when comparing the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing. Economically speaking the Chinese have a substantially larger economy, diversified economic portfolio, greater diplomatic clout (SCO, AIIB, WTO, et al), larger population. Russia's only upper hand would be energy supplies, which it has an enviable abundance of, and to which is needed to fuel China's continued industrialization and manufacturing and domestic demand.
> 
> Other than that, what does Russia provide to China? Technology? China is able to create its own 5th generation fighter : J31, J20. China is able to develop its own AEGIS destroyers: Type 052 Ds; China is able to develop and field its own air craft carrier: The Liaoning Class; China is able to field its own nuclear submarine: Type 091, Type 093, Type 094. What about space technology? China is not dependent on Russia as the former has an active and productive CNSA (China National Space Administration). Software capabilities? China has proven its capabilities with ALIBABA, Xiaomi, Lenovo et al. There really isn't anything Russia can do (or make) that China cannot do on her own.
> 
> So...
> 
> Best,
> @Nihonjin1051



look at it this way, for most member here only see the situation is like "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" problem is, as I say this again and again, Russia did not play like this.

Russia is in deep "Sxxt" now, there are no point denying that. Indeed, China can save Russia if China choose to, but to what price to be exact? And what kind of stuff would China want in return?

Whatever Chinese sees as a long term strategic partner with Russia, it will only happen so as long as they were united with a common "Enemies" the United States. So what do you think will happen if we take the US out of this equation?

Problem is, at some point China would and could stand up to the US alone, and Russia will then be an obstacle for the Chinese if they grew big enough. And since Russia share a border with China, you can expect an Russian Threat is every bit as lethal, if not, more lethal than the United States. Then you also have to link Russia and India too, and it would be a big threat if a strong Russia and a strong India sandwiches China.

However, when you look back from another angle. There are no way as of current, to have a strong India, unless there would be a strong Russia. So in this sense, China keeping Russia weak is killing the Indian Problem on a long run too, Hence a strong Russia is not suitable for the Chinese situation in the long run.

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## Lux de Veritas

Black Flag said:


> Hmm I think I know what you're talking about. It might be true for our ancestors. From an evolutionary perspective, a female human tend to find a male more attractive if he has masculine features (well built, etc.). Natural selection made women this way because a physically strong male can better provide protection to the offsprings. But I've read a report that it is now becoming the opposite, but probably still generally true.
> 
> Anyway, I think high EQ is what gives people the edge over the others, all else being equal. The nerd with no people skills but academically intelligent will get no girls compared to the Jock that is charismatic but academically dumb. Even if the Jock is not athletic, he will still get more girls than the nerd if the Jock is charasmatic. In other words, he got game and the nerd doesn't.
> 
> I think this is like East Asian countries, all are academically intelligent high achievers but gets no love cause they got no game. People think I'm trolling when I said the CP is too "peasant" but I really meant it, they have no game (low EQ).



The East Asian culture for good or bad cause the nerd to be selected and that is why we evolve in such a emasculated way. While women in their free state will mate with macho man, the East Asian culture bestowed so much wealth and prestige to the scholar or rich man type that women become perverse and try to mate with scholar and rich man.

In East Asia the macho man having a more aggressive nature are often decimated as these people tends to rebel. In the west, the macho man may have more chance to ascend through service in the army. In East Asia, top generals are used and executed like toilet paper, or they are deliberately put down.

Even in Singapore today, the warrior do not command the army. The scholar are delliberately being parachute to senior position.

I DO NOT think the white man has high EQ. The white man especially the French are famous for pumping pills or taking drugs or seek psycological healthcare. East Asians are persevere and those who visit mental clinic are deemed as sicko.

The white man live in their natural state and those who excel truely move high. However their society has plenty of scumm who cannot make it. 

The East Asian culture is design such a way that no one are really salient and everyone are more equal. We have fewer shitbag

The top white man may win East Asians but the East Asian society will win white man.

Talk about sexual opportunities, right now white man is more prosperous than us. White man are more macho. Hence woman will let white man screw.

Let say if white man society degrade further. Their man screw and run away leaving parasitic kids with their laid women. Their man beat their women. Their man start to screw their daughters. Their man start to stay at home and stop working. Their man start to take drugs and drink wine. Their man start to screw many women outside.

And let say East Asian improve a little.

Who do you think women will prefer?

The clash of civilization is not just in battlefield but also in bedroom. 

The continuity of east asian civilization depends on whether women want to mate with us and choose to bring up the kids as east asians.

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## TaiShang

jhungary said:


> look at it this way, for most member here only see the situation is like "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" problem is, as I say this again and again, Russia did not play like this.
> 
> Russia is in deep "Sxxt" now, there are no point denying that. Indeed, China can save Russia if China choose to, but to what price to be exact? And what kind of stuff would China want in return?
> 
> Whatever Chinese sees as a long term strategic partner with Russia, it will only happen so as long as they were united with a common "Enemies" the United States. So what do you think will happen if we take the US out of this equation?
> 
> Problem is, at some point China would and could stand up to the US alone, and Russia will then be an obstacle for the Chinese if they grew big enough. And since Russia share a border with China, you can expect an Russian Threat is every bit as lethal, if not, more lethal than the United States. Then you also have to link Russia and India too, and it would be a big threat if a strong Russia and a strong India sandwiches China.
> 
> However, when you look back from another angle. There are no way as of current, to have a strong India, unless there would be a strong Russia. So in this sense, China keeping Russia weak is killing the Indian Problem on a long run too, Hence a strong Russia is not suitable for the Chinese situation in the long run.



*How long can Russia withstand the crisis?*
Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-22 0:08:01

Unlike the image many people hold of Russia, it is neither a powerhouse that embraced the NSA whistle-blower Edward Snowden and annexed Crimea, nor a feeble country as evidenced by the plummeting ruble. The truth of Russia's situation is unclear to many people, both in the West and China. 

The Russian economy is overly dependent on crude oil exports, and this ongoing crisis proves that it is not easy for Russia to be an extra-large Saudi Arabia. Some people suggest that Russia should learn from Canada and Australia, which have managed to transform huge reserves of natural resources into fortunes. However, due to Russia's large population of 140 million people, its modernity and strong currency cannot be solely supported by oil, gas and timber.

*Western sanctions cannot be the straw that breaks the back of Russia. This old trick has proven much less effective even in smaller countries like Cuba and Iran. That is why Russia's annexation of Crimea only left the US and Europe impotent earlier this year. The ongoing crisis engulfing Russia in the wake of plummeting oil prices and the ruble depreciating is probably not what the US had planned. For Washington, what is happening in Russia is more or less unexpected. *

Vladimir Putin's reign can hardly be overturned simply by currency inflation. Russia has experienced many ups and downs, and it has the tenacity to withstand risks and dangers.

However, many of Putin's visions, such as vaulting Russia to the top five in terms of economic strength by 2020 can hardly be realized now. Russia's morale and unity might fall victim to these failures, and the long-term stability of Russian politics is uncertain.

China's help will not get Russia completely off the hook. China is capable of offering sufficient capital, technologies and markets to Russia, but these efforts can only take limited effect if Russia's economy still relies heavily on oil exports and lacks structural diversity.

If Chinese investment in Russia shoots up under these circumstances, Moscow might suspect China has ulterior motives. Russia does not want to be a vassal of the Chinese economy, and this red line must be clearly understood by China.

It doesn't mean China should give Russia the cold shoulder and involve itself with the West. As a close neighbor, Russia plays an indispensable role as a strategic partner of China in the international community. China must hold a positive attitude to help Russia out of this crisis.

China must act as an active mediator between Russia and the US, or it will have to face unavoidable geopolitical risks if their conflict spirals out of control. 

China hopes Russia can regain its economic strength as soon as possible. But anything we can do to help will be limited to what Russia asks for.
Posted in: Editorial


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## Lux de Veritas

TaiShang said:


> *How long can Russia withstand the crisis?*
> Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-22 0:08:01
> 
> Unlike the image many people hold of Russia, it is neither a powerhouse that embraced the NSA whistle-blower Edward Snowden and annexed Crimea, nor a feeble country as evidenced by the plummeting ruble. The truth of Russia's situation is unclear to many people, both in the West and China.
> 
> The Russian economy is overly dependent on crude oil exports, and this ongoing crisis proves that it is not easy for Russia to be an extra-large Saudi Arabia. Some people suggest that Russia should learn from Canada and Australia, which have managed to transform huge reserves of natural resources into fortunes. However, due to Russia's large population of 140 million people, its modernity and strong currency cannot be solely supported by oil, gas and timber.
> 
> *Western sanctions cannot be the straw that breaks the back of Russia. This old trick has proven much less effective even in smaller countries like Cuba and Iran. That is why Russia's annexation of Crimea only left the US and Europe impotent earlier this year. The ongoing crisis engulfing Russia in the wake of plummeting oil prices and the ruble depreciating is probably not what the US had planned. For Washington, what is happening in Russia is more or less unexpected. *
> 
> Vladimir Putin's reign can hardly be overturned simply by currency inflation. Russia has experienced many ups and downs, and it has the tenacity to withstand risks and dangers.
> 
> However, many of Putin's visions, such as vaulting Russia to the top five in terms of economic strength by 2020 can hardly be realized now. Russia's morale and unity might fall victim to these failures, and the long-term stability of Russian politics is uncertain.
> 
> China's help will not get Russia completely off the hook. China is capable of offering sufficient capital, technologies and markets to Russia, but these efforts can only take limited effect if Russia's economy still relies heavily on oil exports and lacks structural diversity.
> 
> If Chinese investment in Russia shoots up under these circumstances, Moscow might suspect China has ulterior motives. Russia does not want to be a vassal of the Chinese economy, and this red line must be clearly understood by China.
> 
> It doesn't mean China should give Russia the cold shoulder and involve itself with the West. As a close neighbor, Russia plays an indispensable role as a strategic partner of China in the international community. China must hold a positive attitude to help Russia out of this crisis.
> 
> China must act as an active mediator between Russia and the US, or it will have to face unavoidable geopolitical risks if their conflict spirals out of control.
> 
> China hopes Russia can regain its economic strength as soon as possible. But anything we can do to help will be limited to what Russia asks for.
> Posted in: Editorial



Russian is resilient and they will come back as they have beaten off enemies throughout centuries.

The mongol defeated them and they defeated mongols.
The swedes defeated them and they defeated swedes.
French
German
Now... USA

Just that this time, they stand a chance to lose Kiev forever. And losing Kiev forever will be a pain to Russian. It is comparable to the Orthodox church losing Constantinople.


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## TaiShang

Lux de Veritas said:


> Russian is resilient and they will come back as they have beaten off enemies throughout centuries.
> 
> The mongol defeated them and they defeated mongols.
> The swedes defeated them and they defeated swedes.
> French
> German
> Now... USA
> 
> Just that this time, they stand a chance to lose Kiev forever. And losing Kiev forever will be a pain to Russian. It is comparable to the Orthodox church losing Constantinople.



Kiev was an independent capital, although under Russian influence. But, as a divided country, at best, they will not have significant influence in the region. Besides, the threat of Russia will forever dangle over their head.

Not a bright future for them. US is thousands of miles away. Russia is just next door. And with Crimea gone, what kind of leverage they really have against Russia other than playing the Western proxy game? 

I share the news below, but I should say that I did not like the doom and gloom rhetoric. Also, the repeated word "saving Russia" is kind of insulting. It appeared on China.org.cn, however.

*Russia's choice: What lies ahead...*
By Sumantra Maitra

When one is travelling, it is usually not hard to find or interact with Russian backpackers. There are various reasons for this. Russians don't travel as much as their European counterparts; the Germans, French and British. Russia also has a weak economy. And finally, an essential for backpacking, is having a Working Holiday visa, which is reciprocal and bilateral for countries which are signatories. So, it was a unique opportunity when I came across this young Russian twenty-something student, who I met in Auckland.
Her name was Olga (and I honestly didn't make it up, nor is it a stereotype, Russians do LOVE the name Olga for some reason), and she is starting a business diploma course in New Zealand soon. Being a journalist and a researcher, I couldn't pass the unique opportunity to talk to her about her country, the situation in Ukraine, politics and economics, and her experiences in interaction. It was a fascinating experience to find out the contradiction in her opinion, a window to the mind of an average Russian youth, venturing out in the allegedly hostile world where everyone hates Russia, and the secret yearning for material pleasure, having the simplest dreams like the rest of us.

She doesn't like Vladimir Putin personally. Being a more moderate, city dwelling, educated Russian, she knows the structural problems Russia is undergoing. But she respects him, for what he is, for being a strong leader.

*Putin to her is God send, a man destined to restore the spirit and glory and pride of a civilization, that gave the world Gogol, Pushkin, Dostoevsky and Tolstoy; a country which is the birth place of Swan Lake by Tchaikovsky. From Rachmaninoff to Kasparov, from Gorky to Tereshkova, a land which contributed its fair share in any field around us.*

She also however, in the same breath laments the lost opportunities in her country. She knows all too well that the Russian economy is doomed, and on a backward autarkic projectile. She is aware of the severe discomfort whenever she meets any European or Westerner, and prefers not to talk about the Russian annexation of Crimea, or the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine. She avoids talking about the first forced border change and annexation of territory in Europe since World War II, even while she vaguely tries to justify that by arguing something which we have heard all too often from any regular Russian news outlet, that Crimea is a historical part of Russia, the home of the Kievan Rus, and it was a shortsighted mistake during the Soviet times to let it be with Ukraine.

The severe loss of the value of rouble means that the Russian consumers and students now can't afford Western products. It is also making the lives of Russians abroad miserable.

But finally, what struck me as the most acute pain she faced in the entire forty five minutes conversation is the fact that she realizes, that Russia is an isolated and closed society, shutting itself off from the rest of the world, limiting severely the cultural interactions between Russians and everyone else.

*So what are Russia's problems? Economists and political scientists will differ in their analysis. From a political perspective, Russia is suffering from an acute case of a "security dilemma."*

During the high growth years of the last decade, Russia was a (re)rising hegemon. Its economy and military might comparatively restored, the Chechnya problem solved, and a part of the global market and the WTO, Russia was looking west.

But the rise of Russian military inevitably cracked open the deep fault lines, and Russia's smaller neighbors were paranoid. With the color revolutions, Russia also felt increasingly under siege, and started to take actions based on military might alone, with blatant disregard of the free choices of the region which it still ironically imperially calls as its "sphere of influence." The smaller neighbors, feeling threatened, turned even more westward, trying to balance Russia, which in turn made Russia even more paranoid.

Economists would argue that Russia is doomed due to structural reasons. For an economy of a great power, Russia is shockingly lacking in almost every aspect. The Russian economy is based on energy. It has no competitive advantage, it doesn't export anything worthwhile, its labor mobility and brain drain is outward, and its demographic growth negative. Russia is not a manufacturing giant like China, or a service-sector and IT giant like India. Russia is also not an innovation and start-up powerhouse like the United States and the Western world. There is no Russian Google or Facebook, nor is there a Russian Tesla or Reliance or Wipro or Mercedes, or PWC, or McDonalds, you name it. An economy which is not product, innovation or service oriented, solely relying on a single utility inevitably was doomed with or without political problems adding to the burden.

No matter how Putin tries to explain it to the world, the sanctions didn't kill the Russian economy nor is the West encircling Russia economically, it just hastened its demise. Russian rouble was doomed, because its entire economy was controlled by a corrupt handful of people, with a senile and craven internal system, and no matter how powerful they are, the forces of the market eventually got to them.

*The challenges Russia faces are massive. In face of Western sanctions and a pariah status, Russia can only be saved by China and India. But in order for that to happen, it needs to take urgent steps. It needs to stop its international confrontations, which is making it embarrassing for both China and India to back Russia as responsible global citizens, just like Israel is increasingly becoming a burden for the United States.*

The economic steps are more immediate. Russia should open its borders and remove visa delays for Indians and Chinese to live and work there. That would inject a fresh workforce, fresh investment, and frankly fresh blood. It should give tax benefits to Chinese startups and Indian companies to start business there, with a half local and half foreign work force of their own choice. It should start more cultural interactions and scholarships for students to study and settle in Russia, and most importantly, solve the chronic structural problems like endemic corruption and the high crime rate.

Will Russia do the abovementioned? It is not the job of an analyst to predict the future. But Russia should remember the historical lessons from Athens and Sparta. The two ancient powerhouses were locked in the greatest geo-political battle of their times, during and after the Peloponnesian war. Sparta increasingly turned inward, was hostile to foreigners and unwelcoming to immigrants, jingoistic, chauvinistic and revanchist. Athens was on the other hand, the exact opposite, a melting pot of immigrant traders and artists alike from across the globe; the earliest example of globalization. The contribution of Athens remains in arts, philosophy and science forever. It gave us Parthenon. No one, however, remembers Sparta, other than the martial spirit and the destructive wars it initiated. If Russia chooses the latter path, it will be a sad world for all the young Russians like Olga venturing out with little dreams in their eyes.

_The writer is a foreign affairs journalist, and research scholar on foreign policy and neo-realism, based in New Zealand. He tweets @MrMaitra._


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## Hamartia Antidote

Lux de Veritas said:


> Talk about sexual opportunities, right now white man is more prosperous than us. White man are more macho. Hence woman will let white man screw.
> 
> Let say if white man society degrade further. Their man screw and run away leaving parasitic kids with their laid women. Their man beat their women. Their man start to screw their daughters. Their man start to stay at home and stop working. Their man start to take drugs and drink wine. Their man start to screw many women outside.
> .



I suggest you get off your morality high horse.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/CHIN-01-291013.html

"There is something I must tell you about China: It is rather morally creative in the usage of its women. 

There isn't a hotel, massage parlor, ktv, or conference hall in town that isn't frequented by "little sisters" (_xiaojie_), escort personnel (_baopo_), hostesses (_peinv_), or other types of prostitutes (_jinv_). There's a name for any relationship a female plaything may fall into: 

Here are the "second wives" (_er laopo_), women [who may havefamily or kids but] who indulge in extramarital affairs with men, married or not. Then we have "the thirds" (_disanzhe_) who are casual love affairs only. 

The queen of all female roles, however - in direct competition with the faithful "wife" (_laopo_)- is the "mistress" (_qingren_). The mistress, a femme fatal, not only embodies adventure and carnal pleasures, but is also the surest status symbol a man can wish for: She shows you have money! 

Technically, only married men can have mistresses; otherwise, if the gentleman is single, we would refer to his female company - however many of them- as simple "girlfriends" (_nvpengyou_). The Chinese tradition of maintaining mistresses is based on what good Christians would refer to as adultery - a sin; yet in China it is mere custom - a habit. 

Consequently, when Westerners first come to China, they are utterly perplexed by the strict division here between marriage, romance, and sex - for which, in Chinese thinking, of course (at least) three different types of women are required..."


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## somsak

Lux de Veritas said:


> The East Asian culture for good or bad cause the nerd to be selected and that is why we evolve in such a emasculated way. While women in their free state will mate with macho man, the East Asian culture bestowed so much wealth and prestige to the scholar or rich man type that women become perverse and try to mate with scholar and rich man.
> 
> In East Asia the macho man having a more aggressive nature are often decimated as these people tends to rebel. In the west, the macho man may have more chance to ascend through service in the army. In East Asia, top generals are used and executed like toilet paper, or they are deliberately put down.
> 
> Even in Singapore today, the warrior do not command the army. The scholar are delliberately being parachute to senior position.
> 
> I DO NOT think the white man has high EQ. The white man especially the French are famous for pumping pills or taking drugs or seek psycological healthcare. East Asians are persevere and those who visit mental clinic are deemed as sicko.
> 
> The white man live in their natural state and those who excel truely move high. However their society has plenty of scumm who cannot make it.
> 
> The East Asian culture is design such a way that no one are really salient and everyone are more equal. We have fewer shitbag
> 
> The top white man may win East Asians but the East Asian society will win white man.
> 
> Talk about sexual opportunities, right now white man is more prosperous than us. White man are more macho. Hence woman will let white man screw.
> 
> Let say if white man society degrade further. Their man screw and run away leaving parasitic kids with their laid women. Their man beat their women. Their man start to screw their daughters. Their man start to stay at home and stop working. Their man start to take drugs and drink wine. Their man start to screw many women outside.
> 
> And let say East Asian improve a little.
> 
> Who do you think women will prefer?
> 
> The clash of civilization is not just in battlefield but also in bedroom.
> 
> The continuity of east asian civilization depends on whether women want to mate with us and choose to bring up the kids as east asians.



And you still single. It sounds like prewching and not doing your part. Don't tell me senoir software engineer in SG not rich enough to get a wife. Even if you are ugly by current westernized standard of beauty, you r rich eniugh to start a family and propagate Asian gene. But you choose to use time on this forum correctly talk aboutthe problem you are part of. Go to love website and get a wife, then pumps out kids ASAP. dude

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## Hamartia Antidote

@Nihonjin1051 as the resident psychology expert..if Chinese women perceive a notion marital infidelity by their husbands is almost an expected practice.. it seems it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they may look elsewhere for a relationship/husband.

I'd rather not talk more about the "evil white man/West and Asian women" thing. But people should look in their own backyards first to see if there are any problems before pointing at their neighbors.

Back on topic...


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## senheiser

bolo said:


> this is not about friendship. Some members think Russia is all nice and all. They have stolen Chinese lands, threatened China at her most vulnerable times, supported india and even threatened to use nukes.
> 
> If Russia want Chinese help they need to give Chinese more in return in the form of engine tech, better deal on oil/gas and some land. I think and hope CPC will extend help once Russia is on her knees.


haha dream on you chinese chauvanist, i am pretty sure russia would hold on siberia over crimea

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## bolo

NiceGuy said:


> Russia is just like NK, they know clearly that if China dont give aid, then when they fall, China will fall,too.
> 
> So, China should keep giving aid unconditionally as usual. Russia-NK will never come to China and ask for help


The best time for China to fall was 150 years ago but no one can do much except a very powerful empire managed to muscle a city from China for "lease". Vietnam missed her chance. Being master of sub Mekong delta is anything but a dream.


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## Lux de Veritas

senheiser said:


> haha dream on you chinese chauvanist, i am pretty sure russia would hold on siberia over crimea



My take is it is good for Russian to hold on to Siberia. Changing the status quo will cause too much blood shed. But if Russian elites continue to let her country rot, things may be unpredictable.

Paul Krugman has pointed out in NYT that Russia is in deep shitt today because the elites fleeced the country and flee to the west. Then Putin pretend currency control after all his friends have left, locking up only the middle class and the poor. A lot of China elites are doing exactly the same thing including Chairman Xi Jinping's relatives.


*If China elites are bad, then China deserve to get shit also. *

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/opinion/paul-krugman-putins-bubble-bursts.html?_r=0

For those who haven’t been keeping track: The ruble has been sliding gradually since August, when Mr. Putin openly committed Russian troops to the conflict in Ukraine. A few weeks ago, however, the slide turned into a plunge. Extreme measures, including a huge rise in interest rates and pressure on private companies to stop holding dollars, have done no more than stabilize the ruble far below its previous level. And all indications are that the Russian economy is heading for a nasty recession.

The proximate cause of Russia’s difficulties is, of course, the global plunge in oil prices, which, in turn, reflects factors — growing production from shale, weakening demand from China and other economies — that have nothing to do with Mr. Putin. And this was bound to inflict serious damage on an economy that, as I said, doesn’t have much besides oil that the rest of the world wants; the sanctions imposed on Russia over the Ukraine conflict have added to the damage.

But Russia’s difficulties are disproportionate to the size of the shock: While oil has indeed plunged, the ruble has plunged even more, and the damage to the Russian economy reaches far beyond the oil sector. Why?

Actually, it’s not a puzzle — and this is, in fact, a movie currency-crisis aficionados like yours truly have seen many times before: Argentina 2002, Indonesia 1998, Mexico 1995, Chile 1982, the list goes on. The kind of crisis Russia now faces is what you get when bad things happen to an economy made vulnerable by large-scale borrowing from abroad — specifically, large-scale borrowing by the private sector, with the debts denominated in foreign currency, not the currency of the debtor country.

In that situation, an adverse shock like a fall in exports can start a vicious downward spiral. When the nation’s currency falls, the balance sheets of local businesses — which have assets in rubles (or pesos or rupiah) but debts in dollars or euros — implode. This, in turn, inflicts severe damage on the domestic economy, undermining confidence and depressing the currency even more. And Russia fits the standard playbook.

Except for one thing. Usually, the way a country ends up with a lot of foreign debt is by running trade deficits, using borrowed funds to pay for imports. But Russia hasn’t run trade deficits. On the contrary, it has consistently run large trade surpluses, thanks to high oil prices. So why did it borrow so much money, and where did the money go?

Well, you can answer the second question by walking around Mayfair in London, or (to a lesser extent) Manhattan’s Upper East Side, especially in the evening, and observing the long rows of luxury residences with no lights on — residences owned, as the line goes, by Chinese princelings, Middle Eastern sheikhs, and Russian oligarchs. Basically, Russia’s elite has been accumulating assets outside the country — luxury real estate is only the most visible example — and the flip side of that accumulation has been rising debt at home.

Where does the elite get that kind of money? The answer, of course, is that Putin’s Russia is an extreme version of crony capitalism, indeed, a kleptocracy in which loyalists get to skim off vast sums for their personal use. It all looked sustainable as long as oil prices stayed high. But now the bubble has burst, and the very corruption that sustained the Putin regime has left Russia in dire straits.

How does it end? The standard response of a country in Russia’s situation is an International Monetary Fund program that includes emergency loans and forbearance from creditors in return for reform. Obviously that’s not going to happen here, and Russia will try to muddle through on its own, among other things with rules to prevent capital from fleeing the country — a classic case of locking the barn door after the oligarch is gone.


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## Aepsilons

jhungary said:


> look at it this way, for most member here only see the situation is like "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" problem is, as I say this again and again, Russia did not play like this.
> 
> Russia is in deep "Sxxt" now, there are no point denying that. Indeed, China can save Russia if China choose to, but to what price to be exact? And what kind of stuff would China want in return?
> 
> Whatever Chinese sees as a long term strategic partner with Russia, it will only happen so as long as they were united with a common "Enemies" the United States. So what do you think will happen if we take the US out of this equation?
> 
> Problem is, at some point China would and could stand up to the US alone, and Russia will then be an obstacle for the Chinese if they grew big enough. And since Russia share a border with China, you can expect an Russian Threat is every bit as lethal, if not, more lethal than the United States. Then you also have to link Russia and India too, and it would be a big threat if a strong Russia and a strong India sandwiches China.
> 
> However, when you look back from another angle. There are no way as of current, to have a strong India, unless there would be a strong Russia. So in this sense, China keeping Russia weak is killing the Indian Problem on a long run too, Hence a strong Russia is not suitable for the Chinese situation in the long run.



I concur with you that Russia may pose a long term threat to China's National Security, due to the wide-array of Russian interventionist policies that are counter-intuitive to China's sovereign strategem. I would point out that Russia is currently flowering its relationship with North Korea, as well as improving defense articulation with Vietnam, India , both of which are nations that are in qualms with China -- especially in regards to territorial disputes. 

I conjecture that prior to Russia's current geopolitical quagmire (Western Sanctions, Economic Collapse) , they were involved in various military articulations with nations that are competitors with China. They had leased a nuclear submarine to India, and are considering yet another program with India vis-a-vis the Project 971 Nerpa. All of this is happening at the same time while Russia's Putin is publicly spewing that China is Russia's "great friend". At the same time the same "friend" is providing Kilo class submarines, and Gepard class frigates to Vietnam, which can be construed as actively and directly improving Vietnam's projection to counter and resist Chinese claims in the Paracel, Spratly Islands.

Apologists for Russia will say that such iconoclastic conjectures will hamper Russo-Chinese ties, but one can answer that by studying the geopolitics of Russia these past 4 decades, and an analysis of Moscow's foreign policy will lead any analyst / researcher to see its inherent interventionist policy to most of its 'partners'. In fact , the Russians are heavily involved in policies that will only benefit her interests with concordance in Russia's favor. 

In the short term, cooperating with Russia is favorable to Beijing's national strategic interests. But long term, say when China's economy (GDP) exceeds that of the United States', has a military defense spending that is at par with the United States, do you think Russia will be satisfied to be "under" a Beijing that is militarily, economically and diplomatically greater than he? I doubt it. They are not the type to be satisfied with being #2 in any relationship, history proves this. They will, eventually, be actively involved in duplicitous interventionist activities within China or with powers that surround China. 

To cite the old adage,_ "Best to keep one's friends close, but one's enemies...keep them closer"_



Peter C said:


> @Nihonjin1051 as the resident psychology expert..if Chinese women perceive a notion marital infidelity by their husbands is almost an expected practice.. it seems it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they may look elsewhere for a relationship/husband.



Hi Peter,

The notions of relationship concordance is a great interest and value to all of us, especially in the field of human sciences (sociology, psychology, neuroscience, neurobiology) because it allows us to study various variables that play a role in personality development as well as behavioral development. Cultural differences may be a pervading factor of interest, but, overall, personality, or in specific, psychosocial elements are almost universal. This concept of marital infidelity is present in any society, any culture; be it Western European, Eastern European, North African, Subsaharan, Central Asian, Southeast Asian, East Asian et al. Sexual appetite , sexual urge is ubiquitous. 

If a woman, doesn't matter what part of the world she's from, feels that she's undergoing a form of abuse (mental, physical, sexual) then she has the right to leave that injurious and toxic environment. Permanently. While there may be some practices in establishments in East Asia that condones peripheral sexuality (massage parlors in China, Geisha in Japan et al), one should also note that not every man from say Japan or China indulges in such activity or engages in such interest. I can cite a personal example for this conjecture. My grandfather never took part in such , neither does my father, and neither do i. There are women in Japan who abhor such a practice and make it known to their partners of their opposition to such behavior, and many abscond their partners if they partake in that lifestyle. 

Let me also add that I personally believe that "Love" knows no color. If a Japanese man or woman falls in love with a fellow Japanese, then great! If , however, they fall in "Love" with a foreigner, then great also. Follow your heart; afterall, we only live once. So long as that person whom a person selects provides him or her with a positive household, loving environment ...then go for it!

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## jhungary

TaiShang said:


> *How long can Russia withstand the crisis?*
> Source:Global Times Published: 2014-12-22 0:08:01
> 
> *Western sanctions cannot be the straw that breaks the back of Russia. This old trick has proven much less effective even in smaller countries like Cuba and Iran. That is why Russia's annexation of Crimea only left the US and Europe impotent earlier this year. The ongoing crisis engulfing Russia in the wake of plummeting oil prices and the ruble depreciating is probably not what the US had planned. For Washington, what is happening in Russia is more or less unexpected. *
> 
> Editorial


 
First of all, for some reason I wasn't notified for this, so if this came as a late response, I am really sorry about that.

Now, back on topic.

The editorial did not say anything. And the only thing that said is that Russia would not be brought down by the sanction in place.

Problem is, the purpose of western sanction is not aimed at bringing down Putin's Russia, but to have Russia yield at withdrawing support to Ukrainian Rebel.

I say this probably a thousand time already, sanction is not to bring down Russia, you cannot bring down anything or anyone with sanction or blockade, that's an undisputed truth, Leningrad did not break for 800 days after being sieged by the German Troop would say more than I ever could.

But the act behind sanction is that so Russian would stop arming Ukraine Rebel. Sanction took money away, and that's the direct result of it, couple with the fact that oil price hit new low, that's where Russian money turn to not even worth the paper it printed on. To support a war, you need money, as everything you supply and use cost. Everything have a price on it, bullet cost about 15c each, tank cost 6 millions each, soldier need pays and all kind of food stuff and clothing to fuel also cost money. You cannot support an open war if you have no money, the only thing you can do is issue bond.

As I said, the momentum is going to go out with Russian Support, it's a matter of Whether or not would the rebel could totally claim Donetsk and Luhansk first, or Russia ran out of money to support the rebel first, and from the look of it. It would be most likely the latter would happen first.

So, if you ask me whether or not the sanction is working? If Russia have to turn the gas back on in Rest of Ukraine and have to seek China for help, then you bet the sanction is working.

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## Lux de Veritas

jhungary said:


> First of all, for some reason I wasn't notified for this, so if this came as a late response, I am really sorry about that.
> 
> Now, back on topic.
> 
> The editorial did not say anything. And the only thing that said is that Russia would not be brought down by the sanction in place.
> 
> Problem is, the purpose of western sanction is not aimed at bringing down Putin's Russia, but to have Russia yield at withdrawing support to Ukrainian Rebel.
> 
> I say this probably a thousand time already, sanction is not to bring down Russia, you cannot bring down anything or anyone with sanction or blockade, that's an undisputed truth, Leningrad did not break for 800 days after being sieged by the German Troop would say more than I ever could.
> 
> But the act behind sanction is that so Russian would stop arming Ukraine Rebel. Sanction took money away, and that's the direct result of it, couple with the fact that oil price hit new low, that's where Russian money turn to not even worth the paper it printed on. To support a war, you need money, as everything you supply and use cost. Everything have a price on it, bullet cost about 15c each, tank cost 6 millions each, soldier need pays and all kind of food stuff and clothing to fuel also cost money. You cannot support an open war if you have no money, the only thing you can do is issue bond.
> 
> As I said, the momentum is going to go out with Russian Support, it's a matter of Whether or not would the rebel could totally claim Donetsk and Luhansk first, or Russia ran out of money to support the rebel first, and from the look of it. It would be most likely the latter would happen first.
> 
> So, if you ask me whether or not the sanction is working? If Russia have to turn the gas back on in Rest of Ukraine and have to seek China for help, then you bet the sanction is working.



Russia has plenty of monies problem is her elites siphon it off. A country the size and technology level of Russia does not need to trade with others. She can close her door up and live like emperor. 

I think this time, it is inevitable that Russia will lose Kiev, but take back consolation like Crimea. If Russian elites do not repent, 100 years down the road, the entire Russia will break up.


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## jhungary

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I concur with you that Russia may pose a long term threat to China's National Security, due to the wide-array of Russian interventionist policies that are counter-intuitive to China's sovereign strategem. I would point out that Russia is currently flowering its relationship with North Korea, as well as improving defense articulation with Vietnam, India , both of which are nations that are in qualms with China -- especially in regards to territorial disputes.
> 
> I conjecture that prior to Russia's current geopolitical quagmire (Western Sanctions, Economic Collapse) , they were involved in various military articulations with nations that are competitors with China. They had leased a nuclear submarine to India, and are considering yet another program with India vis-a-vis the Project 971 Nerpa. All of this is happening at the same time while Russia's Putin is publicly spewing that China is Russia's "great friend". At the same time the same "friend" is providing Kilo class submarines, and Gepard class frigates to Vietnam, which can be construed as actively and directly improving Vietnam's projection to counter and resist Chinese claims in the Paracel, Spratly Islands.
> 
> Apologists for Russia will say that such iconoclastic conjectures will hamper Russo-Chinese ties, but one can answer that by studying the geopolitics of Russia these past 4 decades, and an analysis of Moscow's foreign policy will lead any analyst / researcher to see its inherent interventionist policy to most of its 'partners'. In fact , the Russians are heavily involved in policies that will only benefit her interests with concordance in Russia's favor.
> 
> In the short term, cooperating with Russia is favorable to Beijing's national strategic interests. But long term, say when China's economy (GDP) exceeds that of the United States', has a military defense spending that is at par with the United States, do you think Russia will be satisfied to be "under" a Beijing that is militarily, economically and diplomatically greater than he? I doubt it. They are not the type to be satisfied with being #2 in any relationship, history proves this. They will, eventually, be actively involved in duplicitous interventionist activities within China or with powers that surround China.
> 
> To cite the old adage,_ "Best to keep one's friends close, but one's enemies...keep them closer"_
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Peter,
> 
> The notions of relationship concordance is a great interest and value to all of us, especially in the field of human sciences (sociology, psychology, neuroscience, neurobiology) because it allows us to study various variables that play a role in personality development as well as behavioral development. Cultural differences may be a pervading factor of interest, but, overall, personality, or in specific, psychosocial elements are almost universal. This concept of marital infidelity is present in any society, any culture; be it Western European, Eastern European, North African, Subsaharan, Central Asian, Southeast Asian, East Asian et al. Sexual appetite , sexual urge is ubiquitous.
> 
> If a woman, doesn't matter what part of the world she's from, feels that she's undergoing a form of abuse (mental, physical, sexual) then she has the right to leave that injurious and toxic environment. Permanently. While there may be some practices in establishments in East Asia that condones peripheral sexuality (massage parlors in China, Geisha in Japan et al), one should also note that not every man from say Japan or China indulges in such activity or engages in such interest. I can cite a personal example for this conjecture. My grandfather never took part in such , neither does my father, and neither do i. There are women in Japan who abhor such a practice and make it known to their partners of their opposition to such behavior, and many abscond their partners if they partake in that lifestyle.
> 
> Let me also add that I personally believe that "Love" knows no color. If a Japanese man or woman falls in love with a fellow Japanese, then great! If , however, they fall in "Love" with a foreigner, then great also. Follow your heart; afterall, we only live once. So long as that person whom a person selects provides him or her with a positive household, loving environment ...then go for it!


 
indeed, some even can say that the Russia actually more willing to see a "Controlled" or "Pivoted" China than anyone else in this world, even more so than the US.

Quite don't understand why Chinese member here (To some extend some Chinese Citizens) see US as a threat when the only thing they did to the Modern China is by supporting Taiwan and KMT. But nobody really do cares what Russia actually did to the Chinese. They invaded Manchuria after WW2, they break their bond with China and supported Vietnam over in the 70s. They threaten China on using Thermonuclear weapon and they are one of the (if not main) supporter to India, one of the Chinese rival in the world and in the region.

If you ask me, I would have to say it make more sense for China to cozy up with America then Russia, the Chinese Nightmare situation is not US having bases in Far East, (Japan, Korea and Singapore) but it really should be 2 regional power, India and Russia, sandwiched China.



Lux de Veritas said:


> Russia has plenty of monies problem is her elites siphon it off. A country the size and technology level of Russia does not need to trade with others. She can close her door up and live like emperor.
> 
> I think this time, it is inevitable that Russia will lose Kiev, but take back consolation like Crimea. If Russian elites do not repent, 100 years down the road, the entire Russia will break up.


 
only time will tells

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## TaiShang

Ruble Swap Shows China Challenging IMF as Emergency Lender - Bloomberg

China is stepping up its role as the lender of last resort to some of the world’s most financially strapped countries.

Chinese officials signaled Saturday that they are willing to expand a $24 billion currency swap program to help Russia weather the worst economic crisis since the 1998 default. China has provided $2.3 billion in funds to Argentina since October as part of a currency swap, and last month it lent $4 billion to Venezuela, whose reserves cover just two years of debt payments.

By lending to nations shut out of overseas capital markets, Chinese President Xi Jinping is bolstering the country’s influence in the global economy and cutting into the International Monetary Fund’s status as the go-to financier for governments in financial distress. While the IMF tends to demand reforms aimed at stabilizing a country’s economy in exchange for loans, analysts speculate that China’s terms are more focused on securing its interests in the resource-rich countries.

“It’s always good to have IOUs in the back of your pocket,” Morten Bugge, the chief investment officer at Kolding, Denmark-based Global Evolution A/S who helps manage about $2 billion of emerging-market debt, said by phone. “These are China’s fellow friends and comrades, and to secure long-term energy could be one of the motivations.”

The ruble jumped 4.8 percent to 55.8470 per dollar as of 3:07 p.m. in New York after Hong Kong-based Phoenix TV cited China’s Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng as saying that expanding the currency swap between the two nations would help Russia.

*Ukraine’s Allies *
The ruble has gained 10 percent over the past two days, paring a selloff that’s made it the world’s worst performing currency over the past six months.

Unlike Ukraine, where the pro-west government received a $17 billion IMF-led bailout this year, Russia, Argentina and Venezuela are often at odds with the U.S. and its allies, essentially keeping them out of the reach of the Washington-based institution. At $3.89 trillion, China holds the world’s largest foreign-exchange reserves, allowing it to fill the void.

China and Russia signed a three-year currency-swap line of 150 billion yuan ($24 billion) in October, a contract that allows Russia to borrow the yuan and lend the ruble. While the offer won’t relieve the main sources of pressure on the ruble -- which has lost 41 percent this year amid plunging oil prices and sanctions linked to Russia’s annexation of Crimea -- it could bolster investors’ confidence in the country and help stem capital outflows.

*Argentina Reserves *
A phone call to China’s central bank seeking comment on the terms of its currency swaps wasn’t returned after business hours. Russia isn’t in talks with China about any financial aid, Dmitry Peskov, a spokesman for PresidentVladimir Putin, said on Dec. 20.

Funding from China has helped raise Argentina’s foreign reserves to a 13-month high of $30.9 billion, a boost for a country that has been kept out of international capital markets since defaulting on foreign obligations in 2001.

Argentina received $1 billion worth of yuan earlier this month as part of the three-year currency-swap agreement with China, a central bank official in the South American country, who asked not to be identified because he isn’t authorized to speak publicly, said Dec. 11. That extended the funds transfered to Argentina to $2.3 billion since October. The swap is for a maximum of $11 billion over three years.

*$21 Billion *
In Venezuela, President Nicolas Maduro last month added $4 billion he borrowed from China to the country’s reserves after they fell to an 11-year low. The country now has about $21 billion in its coffers, equal to the amount of debt it has coming due in 2015 and 2016.

Venezuela, which was already plagued by shortages of everything from toilet paper to toothpaste, is also suffering from the drop in oil, its biggest export. Traders are betting that there’s an 89 percent probability that Venezuela won’t be able to make good on its debts over the next five years, according to credit default swaps data compiled by Bloomberg.

“I don’t think this is a broad policy to support any country that asks for Chinese help,” Steffen Reichold, an economist at Stone Harbor Investment Partners in New York, said in an e-mail. “Several countries are currently in a tight spot and the Chinese are offering to help. That buys them some goodwill and influence, and promotes the use of the yuan.”

*U.K., Australia *
The People’s Bank of China has signed currency-swap agreements with 28 other central banks around the world, including those in the U.K. and Australia, making the yuan an alternative to the dollar for global trade and finance.

By promoting the use of its currency, China acts in its own interests as it challenges the dominance of the U.S. in the global economy.

Two months after Russia annexed Crimea in March, China signed a three-decade, $400 billion deal to buy Russian gas. Oil imports from Russia hit an all-time high in November, according to China’s General Administration of Customs.

China has made $47 billion in loans to Venezuela since 2007, making it the country’s largest creditor, according to Eurasia Group, a political consulting firm. Venezuela, which holds the world’s largest oil reserves, repays the loans by shipping crude to China.

In July, Xi signed trade and investment agreements for at least $7.5 billion in Argentina, cementing China’s ties to the world’s third largest soybean producer.

“China is playing an increasingly more important role and is willing to engage,” Michael Ganske, who oversees $8 billion as the head of emerging markets at Rogge Global Partners Plc, said by e-mail from London. “There is geo-strategic importance connected with” the funding deals, he said.

***

Credits: This article has first been shared by @Raphael on another thread. I just share it here again as it is also related to the topic at hand.

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## terranMarine

IMO Russia expected something in return for cozy up to the US since the fall of USSR. I don't think the Russians had the missile shield near their country in mind. Not to mention they didn't like the US/NATO intervention in Yugoslavia.
China on the other hand also didn't get what she desires from the US so that's why we would like to break the monopoly by creating the BRICS bank and the Asian Bank, challenging the US Dollar as the only world currency. While jhungary made some interesting points regarding certain Russian political moves which hurts China's interest, it's also Russia that is currently sharing similar world view with China. To a certain degree we are on the same page countering US/EU aggressive behavior.

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## NiceGuy

jhungary said:


> indeed, some even can say that the Russia actually more willing to see a "Controlled" or "Pivoted" China than anyone else in this world, even more so than the US.
> 
> Quite don't understand why Chinese member here (To some extend some Chinese Citizens) see US as a threat when the only thing they did to the Modern China is by supporting Taiwan and KMT. But nobody really do cares what Russia actually did to the Chinese. They invaded Manchuria after WW2, they break their bond with China and supported Vietnam over in the 70s. They threaten China on using Thermonuclear weapon and they are one of the (if not main) supporter to India, one of the Chinese rival in the world and in the region.
> 
> If you ask me, I would have to say it make more sense for China to cozy up with America then Russia, the Chinese Nightmare situation is not US having bases in Far East, (Japan, Korea and Singapore) but it really should be 2 regional power, India and Russia, sandwiched China.
> 
> 
> 
> only time will tells


US is a threat to China communist regime while Russia is just a threat to its lands. Of course a threat to the regime is always more dangerous than a threat to some China barren lands

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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> US is a threat to China communist regime while Russia is just a threat to its lands. Of course a threat to the regime is always more dangerous than a threat to some China barren lands



You do not make sense.

US also attempted a color revolution in Russia but failed. That's why they moved from Moscow to Kiev in their secondary attempt to proxy regime change and succeeded.

China's barren lands, miraculously, can buy out the entire Vietnam with their GNP output.

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## Aepsilons

jhungary said:


> ndeed, some even can say that the Russia actually more willing to see a "Controlled" or "Pivoted" China than anyone else in this world, even more so than the US.
> 
> Quite don't understand why Chinese member here (To some extend some Chinese Citizens) see US as a threat when the only thing they did to the Modern China is by supporting Taiwan and KMT. But nobody really do cares what Russia actually did to the Chinese. They invaded Manchuria after WW2, they break their bond with China and supported Vietnam over in the 70s. They threaten China on using Thermonuclear weapon and they are one of the (if not main) supporter to India, one of the Chinese rival in the world and in the region.
> 
> If you ask me, I would have to say it make more sense for China to cozy up with America then Russia, the Chinese Nightmare situation is not US having bases in Far East, (Japan, Korea and Singapore) but it really should be 2 regional power, India and Russia, sandwiched China.



I completely agree. In fact, I would actually hope to see a continued cooperation between the United States, Japan, China and Australia in maintaining the global order and securing regional and global stability. Aside from the military and political cooperation , the economic aspect is important to consider. The Trilateral Trade between China-Japan-USA already exceeds $1 Trillion per annum. And its expected to grow even higher. 

I personally wish a Trans-Pacific Partnership between China, South Korea, Japan, and United States (which is by its own right a Pacific Power).

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## TaiShang

*Russia will be able to overcome economic problems - Chinese Foreign Minister*

December 21, 15:44 UTC+3 

"If the Russian side needs it, we shall offer all possible support we may have,” the foreign minister said
BEIJING, December 21. /TASS/. China believes Russia will be able to overcome the current economic problems, and is ready to offer whatever assistance if needed, China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi said in an interview with Hong Kong’s Fenghuang television channel on Sunday.




© Dmitry Astakhov/Russian government's press service/TASS

*“We believe that Russia has opportunities and knowledge to overcome the current problems in the economy. The Chinese-Russian relations of strategic partnership are at a high level, we are always supporting and helping our friend. If the Russian side needs it, we shall offer all possible support we may have,” the foreign minister said.*

China’s Minister of Commerce Gao Hucheng told Fenghuang while commenting on the situation with rouble: “As for certain fluctuations in the stock market and the fluctuations in the currency market - they may be of certain interest for some capital investors, and from the practical cooperation point of view - we are still calm and promote actively our cooperation.”

The minister of commerce also expressed confidence the current financial and economic situation in Russia would not afflict implementation of the major Russian-Chinese projects in the energy, industries and other spheres.

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## Aepsilons

TaiShang said:


> You do not make sense.
> 
> US also attempted a color revolution in Russia but failed. That's why they moved from Moscow to Kiev in their secondary attempt to proxy regime change and succeeded.
> 
> China's barren lands, miraculously can buy out the entire Vietnam with their GNP output.



Agreed. Let's not even bring Vietnam to this discussion.



TaiShang said:


> *Russia will be able to overcome economic problems - Chinese Foreign Minister*
> 
> December 21, 15:44 UTC+3
> 
> "If the Russian side needs it, we shall offer all possible support we may have,” the foreign minister said
> BEIJING, December 21. /TASS/. China believes Russia will be able to overcome the current economic problems, and is ready to offer whatever assistance if needed, China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi said in an interview with Hong Kong’s Fenghuang television channel on Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Dmitry Astakhov/Russian government's press service/TASS
> 
> *“We believe that Russia has opportunities and knowledge to overcome the current problems in the economy. The Chinese-Russian relations of strategic partnership are at a high level, we are always supporting and helping our friend. If the Russian side needs it, we shall offer all possible support we may have,” the foreign minister said.*
> 
> China’s Minister of Commerce Gao Hucheng told Fenghuang while commenting on the situation with rouble: “As for certain fluctuations in the stock market and the fluctuations in the currency market - they may be of certain interest for some capital investors, and from the practical cooperation point of view - we are still calm and promote actively our cooperation.”
> 
> The minister of commerce also expressed confidence the current financial and economic situation in Russia would not afflict implementation of the major Russian-Chinese projects in the energy, industries and other spheres.



Again this illustrates the shear importance China is to Russia's economic survival , especially during this time. Good article and I do wish the best for our Chinese partners .

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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> You do not make sense.
> 
> US also attempted a color revolution in Russia but failed. That's why they moved from Moscow to Kiev in their secondary attempt to proxy regime change and succeeded.
> 
> China's barren lands, miraculously, can buy out the entire Vietnam with their GNP output.


DO not make sense ?? I just explain why Chinese here support Russian instead of US.

China is richer just bcz u guys bowed down to US since 1979 , accepted US 's rule over TW. If China dare to take back TW like Russia take back Crime, then China will get sanction and even much poorer than N.Korea wt millions starve to death in the winter per year


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## Lux de Veritas

NiceGuy said:


> US is a threat to China communist regime while Russia is just a threat to its lands. Of course a threat to the regime is always more dangerous than a threat to some China barren lands



The entire western idea of good things like human right, democracy, freedom is a threat to PRC elites who believe the need to lock up dissident, who stands for corruption and autocraticism.

That is reason why many PRC want to migrate to white man land, meanwhile, many in PDF are hypocrite to bash their white man host.

Even commie leaders and PRC nepotismo-tycoon park their wealth in white man land or places like Singapore because they do not like the shit hole that they themselves created for other people.

These PRC leaders as well as some of their paid commenters poison peopie mind telling them to hate white man meanwhile sending their scions to top college in white man land.

PRC must repent and introspect deeply such sicko mentality is undesirable.

The threat of USA against PRC is ideological and it will vaporize once PRC find a better way to take care of her people. For example USA is famous for not providing healthcare to her citizen. If PRC can give free healthcare, a lot of appeal of USA will vaporized.

Meanwhile, Russia is a real threat against PRC due to her imperialistic culture. The dilapidated Russian state since 1990 is God sent to PRC, diffusing her security threat at the north.


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## Aepsilons

terranMarine said:


> IMO Russia expected something in return for cozy up to the US since the fall of USSR. I don't think the Russians had the missile shield near their country in mind. Not to mention they didn't like the US/NATO intervention in Yugoslavia.
> China on the other hand also didn't get what she desires from the US so that's why we would like to break the monopoly by creating the BRICS bank and the Asian Bank, challenging the US Dollar as the only world currency. While jhungary made some interesting points regarding certain Russian political moves which hurts China's interest, it's also Russia that is currently sharing similar world view with China. To a certain degree we are on the same page countering US/EU aggressive behavior.



Cautious observation is needed for China. China has massive, massive trade volume with the European Union, the United States and Japan. And this continues to increase , and will serve as an independent variable for China's continued neutrality in regards to this Russia situation regarding her political conflict with the West. China should utilize Russia for energy security, and continue to expand her horizon with her continued cooperation with the West and Japan , her greatest trade partners.

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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> DO not make sense ?? I just explain why Chinese here support Russian instead of US.
> 
> China is richer just bcz u guys bowed down to US since 1979 , accepted US 's rule over TW. If China dare to take back TW like Russia take back Crime, then China will get sanction and even much poorer than N.Korea wt millions starve to death in the winter per year



You keep on not making sense since your previous post did not explain anything that you claim it did in your above post.

I even do not know why I am talking to you. If you were an Indian or a Western I would have already put you on my ignore list.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Cautious observation is needed for China. China has massive, massive trade volume with the European Union, the United States and Japan. And this continues to increase , and will serve as an independent variable for China's continued neutrality in regards to this Russia situation regarding her political conflict with the West. China should utilize Russia for energy security, and continue to expand her horizon with her continued cooperation with the West and Japan , her greatest trade partners.



Indeed, no need to get ideologically attached to the conflict, but maintain equal relationship (as much as possible) with all sides. China still needs development and, although not anymore at alarming levels, its GDP still derives some 25% from exports. 

This, however, does not mean that China will not have an opinion as to whether the sanctions are justified or not.


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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> You keep on not making sense since your previous post did not explain anything that you claim it did in your above post.
> 
> I even do not know why I am talking to you. If you were an Indian or a Western I would have already put you on my ignore list.


Next time, pls dont quote my post, idiot, pls get lost, I was quote Jhunggary's post. and u jumped in like a mad



Lux de Veritas said:


> The entire western idea of good things like human right, democracy, freedom is a threat to PRC elites who believe the need to lock up dissident, who stands for corruption and autocraticism.
> 
> That is reason why many PRC want to migrate to white man land, meanwhile, many in PDF are hypocrite to bash their white man host.
> 
> Even commie leaders and PRC nepotismo-tycoon park their wealth in white man land or places like Singapore because they do not like the shit hole that they themselves created for other people.
> 
> These PRC leaders as well as some of their paid commenters poison peopie mind telling them to hate white man meanwhile sending their scions to top college in white man land.
> 
> PRC must repent and introspect deeply such sicko mentality is undesirable.
> 
> The threat of USA against PRC is ideological and it will vaporize once PRC find a better way to take care of her people. For example USA is famous for not providing healthcare to her citizen. If PRC can give free healthcare, a lot of appeal of USA will vaporized.
> 
> Meanwhile, Russia is a real threat against PRC due to her imperialistic culture. The dilapidated Russian state since 1990 is God sent to PRC, diffusing her security threat at the north.


Yeah, I think China should be ruled by TW again, they will bring democracy and human rights to poor Chinese peasants who have No voice against corrupted officials

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## TaiShang

NiceGuy said:


> Next time, pls dont quote my post, idiot, pls get lost, I was quote Jhunggary's post. and u jumped in like a mad
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think China should be rulled by TW again, they will bring democracy and human rights to poor Chinese peasants



If you do not want to be quoted, do not post anything.

On topic: Below is an interesting insight that offers an alternative light on the recent developments.

***


*Eurasian union unappealing prospect following Russia’s economic slump*
By Sheradil Baktygulov 





Illustration: Liu Rui/GT


The upcoming new year will bring many changes in some countries near China. Probably the most interesting is the coming of the Eurasian Economic Union (EEU) which will come into existence on January 1. This bloc includes Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia, with Armenia and Kyrgyzstan on the path to the membership. 

*The main idea of the EEU is to be a better guarantor of the region's economic interests. This perception is based on the leading role of the Russian economy within the EEU. Could Russia play this role? The role of the regional economic locomotive is not so clear.* 

The Eurasian Economic Commission (EEC) is supposed to serve as the supra - national body of the EEU. 

The decisions of the EEC and the EEU Court are not mandatory. The EEU members might not execute these decisions. This situation could decrease the efficiency of the regional economic bloc. 

The Western sanctions against Russia resulted in a steep decline in the ruble following a simultaneous slide in global oil prices. So, the US and the EU sanctions have put a further heavy burden on the Russian role as the economic engine. 

The Kazakh experts are optimistic. The main trend is that the Western sanctions will not impact the Kazakh economy because the sanctions against Russian oil and gas producers will not prohibit the supply of technology to the Kazakhs. 

This opinion is fair, given the interests of the Kazakh oil and gas companies, but does not consider the prices for food and beverages, which will increase by up to 15 to 20 percent.

The war of sanctions has damaged relations among the Customs Union countries. In November, the Russian authorities prohibited the transit of Western products via Belarus through Russia to other countries, including Kazakhstan. 

Their main concern is that such shipments are a scheme to violate Russia's retaliatory sanctions against Europe, which prohibit the import of most European agricultural products. Moreover, the Russian authorities have banned the import of meat and milk products from eight Belarusian companies since November 26, 2014. 

This step is understandable from the Russian point of view, but not from the Belarusian or Kazakhstani ones. Belarus and Kazakhstan do not support the Russian sanctions against the Western countries. Therefore, these two countries have the right to import meet, milk, fruits and vegetables from any country, which allows them to remanufacture the imported Western products as a Customs Union product in accordance with the Customs Union regulations and deliver it to the Russian food market. 

The steep decline in the ruble makes the situation for businesses harder. 

The previous currency rates were attractive for trade among the Customs Union countries and the Central Asian countries before the Western actions. This has forced Central Asian agricultural products producers to increase prices, which then reduces demand. 

Finally, the slowdown in the Russian economy could have an impact on the EEU members' national currency devaluation. 

Probably one positive factor of being a member of the EEU following the Russian economic crisis is an access to the Russian energy resources at low prices, which could stimulate the interests of foreign investors to the EEU member states to produce products in their lands for the Russian market.


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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> If you do not want to be quoted, do not post anything.
> 
> .


I always tell the Truth. Chinese support Russia instead of US is just like communist VN still stay closer to communist China than US even China is a threat to VN lands.

If u Ah Q dont wanna heard the Truth (China eccepted US rule over TW to avoid sanction ...etc ), then , its ur own problem. Dont speak nonsense here.


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## terranMarine

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Cautious observation is needed for China. China has massive, massive trade volume with the European Union, the United States and Japan. And this continues to increase , and will serve as an independent variable for China's continued neutrality in regards to this Russia situation regarding her political conflict with the West. China should utilize Russia for energy security, and continue to expand her horizon with her continued cooperation with the West and Japan , her greatest trade partners.



skills of balancing geopolitics is a lusty art to the eyes 
One thread already mentioned China is ready to assist Russia and will continue to buy crude oil amid dropping price which ofcourse will benefit China as well. While China might need to be cautions, the same applies to EU and Japan especially if they wish to increase Chinese investments.

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## TaiShang

*Russia to Halt Ruble Slide, Increase Energy Ties With China: US Expert*
© RIA Novosti. Iliya Pitalev
20:47 20.12.2014

*A weakened ruble and sliding oil prices will not undermine Russia's economy, says Marin Katusa, the Chief Energy Investment Strategist at Casey Research. The 'harsh reality' is that the US shale producers have already been hurt much more than the Russians.*







MOSCOW, December 20 (Sputnik), Ekaterina Blinova – A weakened ruble and dropping oil prices will not undermine Russia's economy or trigger riots in the streets of Moscow, believes Marin Katusa, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The Colder War," and the Chief Energy Investment Strategist at Casey Research.

*"Russia is not some Zimbabwe-to-be. It's sitting on a surplus of foreign assets and very healthy foreign exchange reserves of around $375 billion. Moreover, it has a strong debt-to-GDP ratio of just 13% and a large (and steadily growing) stockpile of gold… Russia will arrest the ruble's slide and keep pumping oil," writes Marin Katusa in his article "Why Russia will halt the ruble’s slide and keep pumping oil."*

Sliding oil prices will provide Russia with some new opportunities, the author points out. Low oil prices have resulted in boosting energy ties between Russia and its big customers, particularly China.* It is expected that Russia and China will switch to ruble/yuan trading, Marin Katusa notes, adding that it will "further undermine the dollar's worldwide hegemony."*

"Putin always thinks decades ahead, and any short-term loss of energy revenues will be far offset by the long-term gains of his economic alliances," the investment strategist emphasizes.






© SPUTNIK/ MIKHAIL KLIMENTIEV

Putin: Impossible to Say For Sure What Happens to Oil Prices

On the other hand, plummeting oil prices will help Russia to overcome the so-called "Dutch disease." Mr. Katusa points to the fact that high oil prices tremendously lowered Russia's manufacturing sector's share in the country's economy in the past 15 years (to eight percent from 21 percent).

Weaker ruble and lower oil prices will trigger the development of Russia's agricultural and manufacturing sectors, deems the expert. In addition, ruble's weakness together with the ban on food imports from the EU will obviously lead to "an import-substitution boom" in the country.

Marin Katusa drew a historic parallel between Russia's Central Bank's decision to raise interest rates up to 17 percent and the similar measures carried out by US Fed Chair Paul Volcker, who fought inflation in the US in the early 1980s. "It worked for Volcker, as the US stock market embarked on a historic bull run," and it will work for Russians, Mr. Katusa stresses.






© REUTERS/ MAXIM ZMEYEV/FILES

"In any event, don't expect any deprivations to inspire riots in the streets of Moscow," writes Marin Katusa, "The people trust [Vladimir Putin]. They'll tighten their belts and there will be no widespread revolt against his policies."







Meanwhile, "the harsh reality" is that the US shale oil producers have been hurt by sliding oil prices much more than Russians. *If the oil prices drop further, fracking will become "uneconomic" and many US shale firms will be forced to shut down. It will be disastrous for the US economy, notes the expert, since shale industry's growth "has underpinned 100% of US economic growth for the past several years."*

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## Foggy_Bottom

Peter C said:


> Why do people perpetually equate all Western media as the the mouthpiece of the US?? Why if some western press say something about the Russia/China relationship you turn around and automatically say the US is "desperate and fearful".
> 
> Talk about acting flaky. If you mean the "US Press" then f*cken say it. Don't pull this "West" sh*t.



Peter, you are expecting people who have no clue about what a _free pres_s means, to make a distinction between some articles written by the western media and US official stance?

I'll give you a quick synopsis of our stance. We welcome it! It's like a gambler betting on the wrong horse, or soon to be a bankrupt one. China and Russia won't hold back any US involvement or any of our plans in the Asia- pacific theater. 

We handled the Soviet Union & this is par for the course for us. And we know Putin, he is too egomaniacal to play the subservient role in the relationship for too long. This is like a Hollywood marriage and we are going to enjoy the show.

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## TaiShang

US_statedept_retired said:


> Peter, you are expecting people who have no clue about what a _free pres_s means, to make a distinction between some articles written by the western media and US official stance?
> 
> I'll give you a quick synopsis of our stance. We welcome it! It's like a gambler betting on the wrong horse, or soon to be a bankrupt one. China and Russia won't hold back any US involvement or any of our plans in the Asia- pacific theater.
> 
> We handled the Soviet Union & this is par for the course for us. And we know Putin, he is too egomaniacal to play the subservient role in the relationship for too long. This is like a Hollywood marriage and we are going to enjoy the show.



Putin knows Obama inside out. LOL.

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## bolo

TaiShang said:


> You do not make sense.
> 
> US also attempted a color revolution in Russia but failed. That's why they moved from Moscow to Kiev in their secondary attempt to proxy regime change and succeeded.
> 
> China's barren lands, miraculously, can buy out the entire Vietnam with their GNP output.


More like one city like HK has higher output than all the Vietnam put together.

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## Beidou2020

China is now a capital exporter and has a market that is bigger than the US in goods consumption. This means the US will lose its influence big time as other countries have more options. China has also been providing technology to the world it is self-sufficient in, which means the US will lose more influence in that area too.

US needs to have a monopoly on markets, investment, financing and technology. As countries like China has large market for countries to sell into (goods, services, energy, metals, agriculture), Chinese companies invest globally, Chinese government and banks provides loans to anyone, countries and companies can access Chinese capital markets for financing and China exports advanced technology, the US will find its dominant position weaken SIGNIFICANTLY over the coming years and its sanctions becomes highly ineffective.

China is one country that can completely dismantle the American web of power by ending the monopoly positions America holds. Once those monopolies are gone, American power will diminish.

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## Beidou2020

Rouble has recovered a lot. I think PBOC has been buying up roubles to destroy the speculators that have bets on the rouble depreciating.

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> Rouble has recovered a lot. I think PBOC has been buying up roubles to destroy the speculators that have bets on the rouble depreciating.



*Beijing willing to assist Moscow*
_2014-12-22 
_




A woman walks past boards showing currency exchange rates in Moscow, Dec 16, 2014.[Photo/Xinhua]


China's top diplomat is offering Beijing's assistance to Moscow, as pessimism is spreading about the uncertainties of the Russian economy.

With the Kremlin vowing to address Russia's dependence on oil and gas, more teamwork with China in non-energy sectors may help, but the key "lies in the hands of Moscow itself", analysts said.

Following the drastic drop of oil prices, the Russian rouble plummeted on Tuesday and has lost nearly 50 percent against the US dollar and the euro since March.

*Foreign Minister Wang Yi told reporters on Saturday that "Russia has the capability and the wisdom to overcome the existing hardship in the economic situation".*

*"If the Russian side needs, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity," Wang said.*

Wang said China and Russia have been consistently supporting and* helping each other.*

Feng Yujun, a senior analyst of Russian studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, estimated that "the hardest time for the Russian economy is just kicking off, with the upcoming three years clouded by major challenges".

The researcher pointed to a strengthening US dollar, and said emerging economies including Russia will suffer more as money increasingly flows back to the US.

A major turnaround of the suffering economy "requires a range of measures to take effect", Feng said.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday at an annual end-of-year news conference in Moscow that cooperation with China is one of the cornerstones of Russia's economic recovery and prosperity.

*Zhang Deguang, a former Chinese ambassador to Russia, said Moscow has foreign currency reserves totaling hundreds of billions of dollars, and with such support the Russian economy "is still far away from being totally paralyzed".*

Li Jianmin, a researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, suggested that China's assistance be provided through mechanisms including the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and BRICS.

Earlier this month, when Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev met in Astana, Kazakhstan, with Premier Li Keqiang, they agreed on enhancing cooperation in railways, infrastructure and the development of Russia's Far East region.

Loans, cooperation in major projects and participation in the domestic infrastructure investment in Russia are options on the table, Li added.

Qin Gang, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, told a news conference in Beijing on Thursday, "Please do not forget that China and Russia are highly complementary in the economic field, with broad areas and huge potential for cooperation."
***

The key word: helping each other.

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> China is now a capital exporter and has a market that is bigger than the US in goods consumption. This means the US will lose its influence big time as other countries have more options. China has also been providing technology to the world it is self-sufficient in, which means the US will lose more influence in that area too.



Indeed. Considering that China is the largest trading partner in the world, nations do have more options (a larger room for maneuver). That's probably why, despite all the attacks and conspiracies, countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia or Russia, are able to resist. 

China is in a delicate position. It needs to remain a just power by offering assistance to oppressed nations, but at the same, it has to continue doing business with everybody in order to sustain the foundation of its economic rise. Without a strong economy, soft power means nada.

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## NiceGuy

Yeah, China should give more help to Russia, so Russian AF can deploy more Tu-160 jet bomber to SCS(east sea)


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## TaiShang

LOL.


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## Hindustani78

http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/769612
Russia
December 27, 18:03 UTC+3 
The Russian Foreign Ministry said pointed out the successes of the Eurasian integration project, saying it acquired special dynamics in 2014

MOSCOW, December 27. /TASS/. Eurasian Economic Union (EEU) is open for other countries who would like to join it, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Saturday in a comment on the main political results of the outgoing year.

It pointed out the successes of the Eurasian integration project, saying it acquired special dynamics in 2014.

The signing of the EEU foundation treaty on May 29 in Astana, the capital of Kazakhstan, and the launch of the EEU on January 1, 2015, laid a solid foundation for the rise of a full-fledged international organization that would have the necessary institutional framework.

The ministry recalled that Armenia was getting full-scale membership of the organization as of January 2, 2015, and an agreement on Kyrgyzstan's joining the union was signed on December 23.

About forty countries and organizations voiced readiness to sign agreements on a free trade zone with the EEU, the commentary said. "The EEU is open for other states."

The Foreign Ministry also noted intensive collaboration with Belarus in the format of the Union State. "Coordination of actions in the sphere of foreign policy, defence and security within the framework of the processes of economic integration, the deepening of collaboration in the social and humanitarian spheres" were all parts of routine activity in the context the Union State project

The commentary underlined the diversified relationship between Russia and Kazakhstan.

"The Russian-Kazakhstani treaty on good-neighborliness and allied relations in the 21st century is called upon to accelerate this relationship further," it said. "The document is adapted to match today's reality and the conditions of Eurasian integration and it it aimed at a joint rebuffing of the threats and challenges, which have sprung up in recent years."

Multi-aspect cooperation in various formats in the space of the Commonwealth of Independent States also saw intensive development.

"More than twenty treaties and guideline documents were adopted and the effective sphere of the treaty on the CIS free trade zone expanded after *Uzbekistan had joined it as the ninth constituent country,*" the commentary said.


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## Hindustani78

Please move this thread in Europe and Russia.


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## MarkusS

Is this meant as a joke? lol

What does this "Union" plan to trade=? Vodka and good wishs?


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## Hindustani78

MarkusS said:


> Is this meant as a joke? lol
> 
> What does this "Union" plan to trade=? Vodka and good wishs?



Seems here its more about Arctic region.

TASS: Russia - Russia may develop Northern Sea Route project jointly with Asian countries — deputy PM
*Russia may develop Northern Sea Route project jointly with Asian countries — deputy PM*

MOSCOW, December 26. /TASS/. Russia may develop the Northern Sea Route jointly with Asian countries , which are interested in the shortest route for supplies from Asia to Northern Europe, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev said at a conference on Friday.

“I suppose that it is not absolutely correct to develop the Northern Sea Route by Russia only. The project is huge and requires a lot of money. It does not only facilitate transportation from the Far East, but also from China, South Korea, Japan, and, correspondingly, our neighbors must have a chance to join this project if they are interested in it, but, obviously, Russia must hold a controlling stake,” he said.

The potential cargo transportation via the Northern Sea Route is estimated at 50 million tons per year.

It was earlier reported that Korea and Norway planned to increase cooperation in development of the new shipping route.

Last year, South Korea, with the support of Russia, for the first time delivered cargo to the south of the Korean Peninsula through the Northern Sea Route via the polar region.

The new shipping route can cut the voyage distance from South Korea to northern European countries by up to 7,000 kilometers from the 22,000-kilometer journey when using the conventional shipping route through the Indian Ocean.

*The Arctic region, according to various estimates, has up to 30% of the world’s untapped reserves of natural gas and 17% of oil reserves.*

*



*


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## MarkusS

Hindustani78 said:


> Seems here its more about Arctic region.
> 
> TASS: Russia - Russia may develop Northern Sea Route project jointly with Asian countries — deputy PM
> *Russia may develop Northern Sea Route project jointly with Asian countries — deputy PM*
> 
> MOSCOW, December 26. /TASS/. Russia may develop the Northern Sea Route jointly with Asian countries , which are interested in the shortest route for supplies from Asia to Northern Europe, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev said at a conference on Friday.
> 
> “I suppose that it is not absolutely correct to develop the Northern Sea Route by Russia only. The project is huge and requires a lot of money. It does not only facilitate transportation from the Far East, but also from China, South Korea, Japan, and, correspondingly, our neighbors must have a chance to join this project if they are interested in it, but, obviously, Russia must hold a controlling stake,” he said.
> 
> The potential cargo transportation via the Northern Sea Route is estimated at 50 million tons per year.
> 
> It was earlier reported that Korea and Norway planned to increase cooperation in development of the new shipping route.
> 
> Last year, South Korea, with the support of Russia, for the first time delivered cargo to the south of the Korean Peninsula through the Northern Sea Route via the polar region.
> 
> The new shipping route can cut the voyage distance from South Korea to northern European countries by up to 7,000 kilometers from the 22,000-kilometer journey when using the conventional shipping route through the Indian Ocean.
> 
> *The Arctic region, according to various estimates, has up to 30% of the world’s untapped reserves of natural gas and 17% of oil reserves.*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Too bad that EU, Japan and south Korea as well as USA are not interested and will not include in this.


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## Hindustani78

MarkusS said:


> Too bad that EU, Japan and south Korea as well as USA are not interested and will not include in this.



Arctic resources are divided among all the big powers.


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## MarkusS

Hindustani78 said:


> Arctic resources are divided among all the big powers.




which shows exactly why it is so easy to bypass russia in this. Do you honestly think the current political situation allows cooperation?


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## Hindustani78

MarkusS said:


> which shows exactly why it is so easy to bypass russia in this. Do you honestly think the current political situation allows cooperation?



Already big powers are moving in that direction.


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## Cossack25A1

Hmm, China has proposed an economic route in the "South" while Russia is planning a shipping route in the "North"

Looks like Russia and China will be complementing each other economically in the future.

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## AViet

MarkusS said:


> Too bad that EU, Japan and south Korea as well as USA are not interested and will not include in this.



Maybe Russia doesn't care about these countries. Only China node is enough. China alone is nearly equal to all other combined in capital and market.

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## Hindustani78

Cossack25A1 said:


> Hmm, China has proposed an economic route in the "South" while Russia is planning a shipping route in the "North"
> 
> Looks like Russia and China will be complementing each other economically in the future.




Both are working together


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## MarkusS

AViet said:


> Maybe Russia doesn't care about these countries. Only China node is enough. China alone is nearly equal to all other combined in capital and market.



Russia is a smaller market than netherlands. Trade between china and russia is laughable small. Without the economic gianst EU, USA, Japan and South Korea your polar route is laughable.


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## Hindustani78

MarkusS said:


> Russia is a smaller market than netherlands. Trade between china and russia is laughable small. Without the economic gianst EU, USA, Japan and South Korea your polar route is laughable.




A plunge in Russia’s ruble this month to a record low sparked a selloff in developing nations’ assets, leading to a surge in currency volatility. The new contracts come amid efforts by China to increase the international use of the yuan, as the world’s second-largest economy promotes it as an alternative to the U.S. dollar for global trade and finance. Malaysia and Russia are China’s eighth and ninth biggest trading partners, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

TASS: Economy - China to launch yuan-ruble swaps from Dec 29


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## TaiShang

*China Challenges US Economic War against Russia by Directly Challenging NATO Power*

Alex Lantier | Wednesday, December 24, 2014






_Directly challenging the NATO powers’ policy of cutting off credit to Russia to undermine the ruble and bankrupt the Russian economy, China is pledging to extend financial aid to Moscow._


On Saturday, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi stressed the need for mutual aid between China and Russia in remarks on the ruble crisis, which has seen a drastic 45 percent fall in its value against the dollar this year.

“Russia has the capability and the wisdom to overcome the existing hardship in the economic situation,” Wang said. “If the Russian side needs it, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity.”

*On Sunday, Chinese Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng told Hong Kong’s Phoenix TV that Beijing would strengthen ties with Moscow in energy and manufacturing, predicting that Chinese-Russian trade would hit its target of $100 billion this year despite the ruble crisis.*

As the ruble’s value in dollars or euros swings wildly, *Gao proposed moving away from the dollar in financing Chinese-Russian trade and instead using the Chinese currency, the yuan or renminbi.*

Gao said China would focus on “fundamental factors such as how the two economies complement each other,” Reuters reported. “Capital investors may be more interested in a volatile stock or foreign exchange market. But in terms of concrete cooperation between the two nations, we shall have a balanced mentality and push forward those cooperations,” Gao said.

*Yesterday, China Daily cited Li Jianmin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences saying that aid to Russia could pass through channels like the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) or the BRICS forum. Significantly, both the SCO (an alliance of China, Russia, and Central Asian states) and the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) exclude the United States and Europe.*

Li noted that already last month, when Chinese and Russian premiers Li Keqiang and Dmitry Medvedev met in Kazakhstan,* they signed extensive deals on railways, infrastructure and development in Russia’s Far East region, north of China.* “Loans, cooperation in major projects, and participation in domestic infrastructure investment in Russia are options on the table,” he added.

In one such deal last month, China signed a $400-billion, 30-year deal to buy Russian gas.

These offers of assistance cut across the economic war on Russia launched by US and European imperialism to punish Moscow for opposing their neo-colonial restructuring of Eurasia.

*In retaliation for Russian support for President Bashar al-Assad against NATO’s proxy war in Syria and Russian opposition to the NATO-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev, the NATO powers sought to financially strangle Russia.*

As Russian oil revenues fell in line with the fall in world oil prices and the ruble collapsed, they worked to cut off credit to Russia and demanded that Russia acquiesce to the Kiev regime. (See: Imperialism and the ruble crisis)

The basic financial mechanism of this strategy was laid out in London’s _Financial Times_ by Anders Aslund of the Petersen Institute for International Economics. “Russia has received no significant international financing—not even from Chinese state banks—because everybody is afraid of US financial regulators,” he wrote.

*With a yearly capital outflow of $125 billion, liquid foreign currency reserves of only $200 billion, and total foreign debts of $600 billion, Russia would run out of dollars and be bankrupted in as little as two years, Aslund calculated.*

*Now, however, Beijing appears to be accepting the risk of a showdown with the United States and publicly preparing to throw a financial lifeline to Russia. Chinese currency reserves of $3.89 trillion are the world’s largest and, on paper at least, allow Beijing to easily repay Russia’s debts.*

Significantly, the calls of Wang and Gao to aid Russia came a day after a divided European Union (EU) summit on Russia last week.

Though the EU supported US sanctions against Russia, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, French President François Hollande and Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi all publicly opposed calls for more sanctions.

Leading European newspapers also warned of the risk of a collapse of the Russian state.

The economic conflicts erupting between the major powers over the oil crisis and the imperialist war drive in Eurasia testifies to the advanced state of the crisis of world capitalism, and the rising risk of world war.

*Chinese aid to Russia, should it materialize, will exacerbate US conflict with China. Washington has tried to militarily encircle it through the “pivot to Asia,” allying with Japan, Australia, and India. Plans for war with China, both economic and military, are doubtless being pored over on Wall Street and in the Pentagon.*

A year ago, in an article titled “China must not copy the Kaiser’s errors,”_Financial Times_ columnist Martin Wolf warned China against any action that could be construed as a challenge to US global hegemony. He indicated that a Chinese policy replicating the German Kaiser’s challenge to British hegemony before the outbreak of World War I in 1914 would lead to a similar outcome: all-out conflict.

“If open conflict arrived, the US could cut off the world’s trade with China. It could also sequester a good part of China’s liquid foreign assets,” Wolf wrote, recalling that China’s “foreign currency reserves, equal to 40 percent of GDP are, by definition, held abroad.”

Such naked theft of trillions of dollars that China has earned from trade with the United States and Europe would directly raise the prospect of a collapse of global trade and preparation for war between nuclear-armed powers.

With its ever more reckless and violent policies, US imperialism is vastly overplaying its hand, discrediting itself at home and fueling opposition from rival states.

*By driving Russia and China together, in particular, Washington is undoing what was long seen as a major achievement of US imperialist statecraft: the 1972 rapprochement between US President Richard Nixon and Chinese leader Mao Zedong, which turned China into a US ally against the former Soviet Union.*

*“Many Chinese people still view Russia as the big brother, and the two countries are strategically important to each other,” Renmin University Associate Dean Jin Canrong said, referring to Soviet backing for China as it fought the United States in the Korean War, shortly after the Stalinist Chinese Communist Party (CCP) came to power in 1949.*

“For the sake of national interests, China should deepen cooperation with Russia when such cooperation is in need.”

“Russia is an irreplaceable partner on the international stage,” the CCP-linked _Global Times_ wrote in an editorial yesterday. “China must take a proactive attitude in helping Russia walk out of the current crisis.”

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## BoQ77

It's not challenging, it's taking advantage of the sanction.


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## ChineseTiger1986

China + Russia is definitely a good counterbalance against the US global hegemony.

Militarily speaking, the combining power of these two nations has gained an edge over the solo US.

Economically speaking, with our revised up stats and the new calculation method for the GDP figure, China will soon pass the US in the nominal GDP.

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## NiceGuy

Good co-operation, but Russia never let China to become stronger than Russia.

Russia is big bro- China is small kid, thats how the game is set


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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China + Russia is definitely a good counterbalance against the US global hegemony.
> 
> Militarily speaking, the combining power of these two nations have gained an edge over the solo US.
> 
> Economically speaking, with our revised up stats and the new calculation method for the GDP figure, China will soon pass the US in the nominal GDP.



Russia just announced an update to its national security doctrine, citing NATO's expansion and US theater ballistic missile defense system as national security concerns. 

One more step to the right direction. 

China and Russia are poised to move from economics-driven partnership to a more strategic/security-driven partnership. Considering the existential threat coming from the West, that's almost unavoidable.

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## ChineseTiger1986

TaiShang said:


> Russia just announced an update to its national security doctrine, citing NATO's expansion and US theater ballistic missile defense system as national security concerns.
> 
> One more step to the right direction.
> 
> China and Russia are poised to move from economics-driven partnership to a more strategic/security-driven partnership. Considering the existential threat coming from the West, that's almost unavoidable.



The US can only fight against in a two-front war against two lesser enemies such as Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, but against two heavyweight opponents like Russia and China is a fatal strategic mistake.

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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The US can only fight against in a two-front war against two lesser enemies such as Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, but against two opponents like Russia and China is a fatal strategic mistake.



Indeed, considering that both nations are nuclear powers, which was not the case during the Second World War.

No easy victory, and definitely no "the great American fortress" this time around.

Let me quote them:

"If we're burn, you burn with us!"

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## Falcon29

TaiShang said:


> Indeed, considering that both nations are nuclear powers, which was not the case during the Second World War.
> 
> No easy victory, and definitely no "the great American fortress" this time around.
> 
> Let me quote them:
> 
> "If we're burn, you burn with us!"



What if they economically devastate you? How will you respond?


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## Kyle Sun

NiceGuy said:


> Good co-operation, but Russia never let China to become stronger than Russia.
> 
> Russia is big bro- China is small kid, thats how the game is set


 Get lost !



Falcon29 said:


> What if they economically devastate you? How will you respond?


Let's perish together.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Falcon29 said:


> What if they economically devastate you? How will you respond?



The economic devastation will be symmetrical.

Today's China is not just a cheap sweatshop.

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## Falcon29

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The economic devastation will be symmetrical.
> .



I need to see something that can support your statement. But, the sanctions seem to have an effect on Russia. Do you see it as a boiling pot? The more they provoke Russia the closer we get to ....? What is endgame here? How can Russia/China respond to economic devastation of Russia for example?


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## ChineseTiger1986

Falcon29 said:


> I need to see something that can support your statement. But, the sanctions seem to have an effect on Russia. Do you see it as a boiling pot? The more they provoke Russia the closer we get to ....? What is endgame here? How can Russia/China respond to economic devastation of Russia for example?



Russia won't collapse, since their currency has been stabilized.

And China will give Russia a push, and they will be fine.

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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia won't collapse, since their currency has been stabilized.
> 
> And China will give Russia a push, and they will be fine.



Russia will emerge stronger. And, also count the damage the current crisis has been doing on the sanctioning European governments.

They are not invincible. 

This is why we believe comprehensive strength is the key for national defense. On from whatever front your enemy strikes you, it must inherently know that it will suffer a symmetrical punch. Then, it all boils down to the stemina of the sides.

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## Falcon29

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Russia won't collapse, since their currency has been stabilized.
> 
> And China will give Russia a push, and they will be fine.



I don't expect them to collapse. But I do believe West is able to weaken Russia through economic warfare/measures. If they wanted to, but it wouldn't make sense for global order unless there are alternatives. Such as alternative for natural gas.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Falcon29 said:


> I don't expect them to collapse. But I do believe West is able to weaken Russia through economic warfare/measures. If they wanted to, but it wouldn't make sense for global order unless there are alternatives. Such as alternative for natural gas.



If the US cannot bring down Putin's Russia to its knee, there will be a side effect, since a wounded Putin's Russia will be even more anti-US.

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## AgentOrange

NiceGuy said:


> Good co-operation, but *Russia never let China to become stronger than Russia.*
> 
> *Russia is big bro- China is small kid, thats how the game is set*



 What an odd thing to post. In a thread about Russia needing Chinese assistance to stave off economic disaster, no less. Truly you are a credit to your Vietnamese race.

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## TaiShang

AgentOrange said:


> What an odd thing to post. In a thread about Russia needing Chinese economic assistance to stave off economic disaster, no less. Truly you are a credit to your Vietnamese race.



Besides, what is this talk about big bro, small bro? Does not make sense because China and Russia do explicitly recognize each other as equals.

There is no lord-vassal relationship unlike the US-EU or US-Japan and the likes.

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## AgentOrange

TaiShang said:


> Besides, what is this talk about big bro, small bro? Does not make sense because China and Russia do explicitly recognize each other as equals.
> 
> There is no lord-vassal relationship unlike the US-EU or US-Japan and the likes.



Exactly. China has long since eclipsed Russia economically but there's no condescension from China towards Russia or Russia towards China. I think NiceGuy is trying to understand what's going on but he's simply unable to comprehend the power dynamics between China and Russia no matter how hard he concentrates. 

So he necessarily frames the Chinese/Russian relationship as one of master/slave because in the Viet experience, that's all they've ever known - Vietnam as a slave to everyone and anyone who comes along. Rather than view it as trolling, I tend to have pity for people from that poor downtrodden banana republic.

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## ChineseTiger1986

TaiShang said:


> Besides, what is this talk about big bro, small bro? Does not make sense because China and Russia do explicitly recognize each other as equals.
> 
> There is no lord-vassal relationship unlike the US-EU or US-Japan and the likes.



Funny that those short-sighted Chinese members keep ranting like we are licking Russia's boot.

Russia is now buying a lot of time for us by distracting the US, so they deserve to get those bonuses from us.

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## AgentOrange

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Funny that those short-sighted Chinese members keep ranting like we are licking Russia's boot.
> 
> Russia is now buying a lot of time for us by distracting the US, so they deserve to get those bonuses from us.



Exactly. All China needs is time. Time out of the spotlight. In another 20 years, nothing will be able to derail China's rise. China might not even need 20.

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## ChineseTiger1986

AgentOrange said:


> Exactly. All China needs is time. Time out of the spotlight. In another 20 years, nothing will be able to derail China's rise. China might not even need 20.



I'd say by 5 more years, and after that, China will become fully evolved and nearly invulnerable.

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## sword1947

Falcon29 said:


> I don't expect them to collapse. But I do believe West is able to weaken Russia through economic warfare/measures. If they wanted to, but it wouldn't make sense for global order unless there are alternatives. Such as alternative for natural gas.


thanks for your help, we need lower price

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## Providence

Okay so china threw a rope to russia when it's economy is going down. How can you interpret it as china challenging US ?

The way I look at it ? China is sucking in what russia got to offer is all. CCP has fundamentally been risk averse when it came to its core foreign policy.

China never had the balls to claim macau till 1998 or something from portugal although it was nuclear power since what 1963 ? China will never prefer an economic showdown with US since it knows it will lose especially when their 4Trillion worth of money is parked here in US economy itself.

China will always lose irrespective of what would happen to US economy. It's the hard and bitter truth which they haven't grasped yet.


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## NiceGuy

Providence said:


> Okay so china threw a rope to russia when it's economy is going down. How can you interpret it as china challenging US ?
> 
> The way I look at it ? China is sucking in what russia got to offer is all. CCP has fundamentally been risk averse when it came to its core foreign policy.
> 
> China never had the balls to claim macau till 1998 or something from portugal although it was nuclear power since what 1963 ? China will never prefer an economic showdown with US since it knows it will lose especially when their 4Trillion worth of money is parked here in US economy itself.
> 
> China will always lose irrespective of what would happen to US economy. It's the hard and bitter truth which they haven't grasped yet.


Bro, u should read 'the true story of Ah Q' to understand more abt China. U will find that there is No way to defeat their 'spiritual victory' 


> The story traces the "adventures" of Ah Q, a man from the rural peasant class with little education and no definite occupation. Ah Q is famous for "spiritual victories", Lu Xun's euphemism for self-talk and self-deception even when faced with extreme defeat or humiliation.* Ah Q is a bully to the less fortunate but fearful of those who are above him in rank, strength, or power*. *He persuades himself mentally that he is spiritually "superior" to his oppressors even as he succumbs to their tyranny and suppression.* Lu Xun exposes *Ah Q's extreme faults as symptomatic of the Chinese national character of his time*. The ending of the piece – when Ah Q is carted off to execution for a minor crime – is equally poignant and satirical.

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## TaiShang

*Crude price drop triggers major layoffs in US oil industry*
Published time: December 27, 2014 12:51 








Reuters / Jonathan Alcorn

Thousands of recently highly paid workers have been laid off after the oil price plummeted 50 percent in 2014. At least four American oil-producing states are already facing budget problems due to decreasing oil revenues.

The price plunge has affected petroleum production in all oil-extracting countries, including the US.

Currently cheap fuel is still believed to be providing an overall boost to the US economy, as consumers can spend less on gasoline and more on shopping and services. But for the American energy sector the future looks less bright. It’s effecting places like Alaska, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas, the New York Times reports.

US oil experts recall the 1980s oil price downturn, accompanied by economic disasters around the globe and arguably becoming one of the causes of the fall of the Soviet Union. Some experts are positive and say America’s oil-producing states won’t suffer too much because they _“diversified their economies.”_

READ MORE: Oil producers to lose $1tn if price below $60 – Goldman Sachs







Reuters / Shannon Stapleton

This doesn’t apply to the state of Alaska. According to the NYT, approximately 90 percent of state’s budget is formed from oil revenues. Alaska’s government is considering a 50 percent capital-spending cut for bridges and roads in the face of the oil price drop, with Moody’s, the credit rating service, lowering Alaska’s credit outlook from stable to negative.

The state of Louisiana’s 2015-16 budget is going to be $1.4 billion short, with 162 state government positions already eliminated and more to be discontinued starting from January. Contracts and projects are being either reduced or frozen in state agencies. According to the state’s chief economist Greg Albrecht, for every $1 fall in price of an annual average barrel of oil, Louisiana loses $12 million.

For Texas, which has a far larger and more diversified economy than Louisiana, the oil price downturn is no good either. In just October and November Texas lost 2,300 oil and gas jobs, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics reported last week. Through the last half a year the state has been losing $83 million in potential revenue every day, the Greater Houston Partnership recently reported. They blamed this on crashing price of its West Texas Intermediate crude oil, which has depreciated to $54.73 per barrel this week, from more than $100 six months ago.






AFP Photo / David McNew

The situation in other oil-extracting states could be even worse. In a study published last year, the Council on Foreign Relations warned the largest job losses caused by sharp decline in oil prices are going to take place in North Dakota, Oklahoma and Wyoming, where the number of drilling rigs is decreasing.

The US oil industry has showed 50 percent employment growth since the recession officially ended in mid-2009, giving jobs to over 779,000 people as of October 2014, the Wall Street Journal reported. A total of 10 million jobs have been associated with the US oil and gas industry, Mark Mills, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, estimated.

Now according to Tom Runiewicz, a US industry economist at IHS Global Insight, if oil stays around $56 a barrel till the middle of the next year, companies providing services to oil and gas industry could lose 40,000 jobs by the end of 2015, while oil and gas equipment manufacturers could slash up to 6,000 jobs.

These workers can earn more than $1,700 a week, much higher than the average $848 a week payment for other workers, the WSJ reported. When experienced workers lose their highly paid jobs, they stop paying their bills.

There are also fears of a house-price slump. Fitch Ratings has already warned that with the price of oil continuing to plummet, home prices in Texas _“may be unsustainable.”

***
_
Let's pray US oil producers and the Saudi Oil Company (the Kingdom) and its CEO (the King) would hold for at least another year with low oil prices since China needs to fill up SPRs. The advantage of filling up SPRs at cheaper price is much higher than assisting Russia and thereby deepening strategic partnership. 



AgentOrange said:


> Exactly. China has long since eclipsed Russia economically but there's no condescension from China towards Russia or Russia towards China. I think NiceGuy is trying to understand what's going on but he's simply unable to comprehend the power dynamics between China and Russia no matter how hard he concentrates.
> 
> So he necessarily frames the Chinese/Russian relationship as one of master/slave because in the Viet experience, that's all they've ever known - Vietnam as a slave to everyone and anyone who comes along. Rather than view it as trolling, I tend to have pity for people from that poor downtrodden banana republic.



In their small worlds, Vietnamese and Indian (including that false flag Indian troll) wish to help the condensed media effort to create suspicion and misunderstanding between China and Russia, which is, at best, a poor attempt. As you day, it is probably due to bad personal experience and narrowness of worldview. When one is famous for being a vassal and the other is for being inefficient and corrupt, one would you expect?



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Funny that those short-sighted Chinese members keep ranting like we are licking Russia's boot.
> 
> Russia is now buying a lot of time for us by distracting the US, so they deserve to get those bonuses from us.



Exactly. Just when the US seemed to get clear from the Middle East and concentrate on China, the ISIS emerged. And then this Ukraine. China needs time, and these incidents give plenty.

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## NiceGuy

TaiShang said:


> In their small worlds,* Vietnamese and Indian (including that false flag Indian troll) wish to help the condensed media effort to create suspicion and misunderstanding between China and Russia*, which is, at best, a poor attempt. As you day, it is probably due to bad personal experience and narrowness of worldview. When one is famous for being a vassal and the other is for being inefficient and corrupt, one would you expect?
> .


Then pls explain to me why Mr.Putin send RuAF to VN to patrol over SCS(east sea) ?? Does Mr.Putin wanna contain China's expansion in SCS(east sea) ?


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## Hamartia Antidote

The typical person here does not feel bad because a bunch of oil companies aren't raking in gargantuan profits because oil is not at ~$100 barrel. The bottom line is when oil is low the majority are happy...and a few are not.

This was not a person people had sympathy for





$50 a barrel is NOT unreasonable. $100 is. If some states are taking the tax revenue of $100/barrel as the "norm" in their budgets then they won't be getting much sympathy either.

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## Hindustani78

Belarus to be first to preside in EEU | Politics | Headlines

MOSCOW, 23 December (BelTA) – Belarus will assume presidency in the Eurasian Economic Union in 2015, Russian President Vladimir Putin said following the session of the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council at the level of the heads of state on 23 December, BelTA has learned.

The Eurasian Economic Union will become operational on 1 January 2015. Thus, Belarus will be the first country to preside in the EEU. 

Vladimir Putin informed that a substantial package of documents was signed at the session. These documents are designed to strengthen integration and streamline the work of the agencies of the EEU. The partners determined the list of services that will be included in the EEU common market as early as 1 January 2015. The list includes retail and wholesale trade, hospitality, public catering, construction services, agricultural services, etc. 

Another two documents signed on 23 December provide that the common market of pharmaceutical and medical products will become operational in the EEU on 1 January 2016. Vladimir Putin noted that the common market of electric power will be launched in 2019 and the common market of oil and gas will become operational in 2025. The common market of finances is also on the agenda. 

All in all, two dozen documents were signed at the session.

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## Echo_419

Hindustani78 said:


> Belarus to be first to preside in EEU | Politics | Headlines
> 
> MOSCOW, 23 December (BelTA) – Belarus will assume presidency in the Eurasian Economic Union in 2015, Russian President Vladimir Putin said following the session of the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council at the level of the heads of state on 23 December, BelTA has learned.
> 
> The Eurasian Economic Union will become operational on 1 January 2015. Thus, Belarus will be the first country to preside in the EEU.
> 
> Vladimir Putin informed that a substantial package of documents was signed at the session. These documents are designed to strengthen integration and streamline the work of the agencies of the EEU. The partners determined the list of services that will be included in the EEU common market as early as 1 January 2015. The list includes retail and wholesale trade, hospitality, public catering, construction services, agricultural services, etc.
> 
> Another two documents signed on 23 December provide that the common market of pharmaceutical and medical products will become operational in the EEU on 1 January 2016. Vladimir Putin noted that the common market of electric power will be launched in 2019 and the common market of oil and gas will become operational in 2025. The common market of finances is also on the agenda.
> 
> All in all, two dozen documents were signed at the session.



We should also give a thought of Joining this Customs union


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## Hindustani78

Echo_419 said:


> We should also give a thought of Joining this Customs union



Belarus is expanding relations with both Iran and Turkey.

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## Echo_419

Hindustani78 said:


> Belarus is expanding relations with both Iran and Turkey.



& it will also benefit by expanding relations with us

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## Hindustani78

Echo_419 said:


> & it will also benefit by expanding relations with us



There are areas where countries cant cross . Economy alliance and military alliance do have their limitations. 

Turkey will adopt a delicate line


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## TaiShang



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## xyxmt

NiceGuy said:


> Good co-operation, but Russia never let China to become stronger than Russia.
> 
> Russia is big bro- China is small kid, thats how the game is set



militarily yes, economically reversed



Peter C said:


> The typical person here does not feel bad because a bunch of oil companies aren't raking in gargantuan profits because oil is not at ~$100 barrel. The bottom line is when oil is low the majority are happy...and a few are not.
> 
> This was not a person people had sympathy for
> View attachment 179543
> 
> 
> $50 a barrel is NOT unreasonable. $100 is. If some states are taking the tax revenue of $100/barrel as the "norm" in their budgets then they won't be getting much sympathy either.



this cannot go on for a long time because all Europeans states, Canada and many countries have gotten used to lavish spending money collected from taxing gasoline, so the gas prices goes down 50% means their tax collection goes down 50%...bad for many economies.


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## ChineseTiger1986

xyxmt said:


> militarily yes, economically reversed



Militarily, it is India and Vietnam who are heavily dependant on Russia, not China.

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## xyxmt

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Militarily, it is India and Vietnam who are heavily dependant on Russia, not China.



key components on many hitech Chinese hardware also comes from Russia


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## ChineseTiger1986

xyxmt said:


> key components on many hitech Chinese hardware also comes from Russia



Nope, not even the jet engine right now.

China always develops its own critical components by itself, never really relying on Russia.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Probably does judo/karate because he has some complex due to his short height (1.70M 5'7")


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## TaiShang



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## NiceGuy

xyxmt said:


> militarily yes, economically reversed
> .


China economy is going down badly now. its unemployment rate also rising. Dont know when China economy collapse, bro .

China only can produce cheap-low quality products. Its economy cant compare wt JP-German-US coz they can produce high quality-high tech products

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## TaiShang

Don't worry, everything will be alright.

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## TaiShang

*China Launches Swaps, Forwards with Russia in National Currencies / Sputnik International

China launches swaps and forwards between the yuan and the Russian ruble starting Monday.*




© SPUTNIK/ ALEXANDER YURIEV

MOSCOW, December 29 (Sputnik) –According to the China Foreign Exchange Trade System (CFETS),* the ruble has become the 11th currency in the yuans swaps trading.*

On December 26, CFETS reported on its website that swaps and forwards trading between the yuan and national currencies of Russia, Malaysia and New Zealand would start on December 29.

Earlier in December, China's Minister of Commerce Gao Hucheng claimed that China could increase the usage of yuan in trade with Russia amid the ruble's depreciation.

*"The fact that China will provide some opportunities [to Russia] to get a source of foreign currency liquidity will slow down panic [caused by the ruble depreciation] and bring the ruble closer to fundamental rates based on oil Brent price quotations and economic growth," analyst from Finam Holdings, company providing financial services, Timur Nigmatullin told Sputnik on Monday.*





© AP PHOTO/ JASON DECROW

The Russian ruble plunged to a record low earlier in December amid a slump in oil prices and geopolitical tensions related to the Ukrainian crisis.

Trading in national currencies falls in line with China's intention to weaken the US dollar's dominance in global finance and promote the yuan as an alternative.

In October, the Bank of Russia and the People's Bank of China – the nations' central banks – reached a three-year agreement on currency swaps worth 150 billion yuan (over $2.4 billion).

Both the Russian and the Chinese leaders have repeatedly praised the decision, saying it would bring positive effects for the countries' economies and currencies.

The main benefits of mutual payments in national currencies are the absence of charges for the conversion of the currencies, direct payments and higher transparency in relations between the banks.

***

*Ditching US dollar: China, Russia launch financial tools in local currencies*
Published time: December 29, 2014 14:03 , Russia Today





_A bank clerk counts Chinese yuan banknotes at a branch of Industrial and Commercial Bank of China in Huaibei (Reuters/Stringer) and Russian ruble banknotes (Reuters/Ilya Naymushin)_


*China and Russia have effectively switched to domestic currencies in trading using financial tools as swaps and forwards, as they seek to reduce the influence of the US dollar and foreign exchange risks*.

The agreement signed in the end of October comes into force Monday, December 29, and provides a currency swap of CNY150 billion (up to US$25 billion).

READ MORE: Defying the dollar Russia & China agree currency swap worth over $20bn 
The country’s Foreign Exchange Trade System will carry out similar transactions with the Malaysian ringgit and the New Zealand dollar.

From now on yuan swaps are available for 11 currencies on the foreign exchange market.

_“China won’t stop yuan globalization or capital account opening because of the volatility in emerging market currencies,”_ Ju Wang, a senior currency strategist at HSBC Holdings Plc in Hong Kong told Bloomberg.

China has set up bilateral currency swap lines with more than 20 countries and regions since 2009, including Switzerland, Brazil, Hong Kong, Indonesia and South Korea, Xinhua News reported in July.

A swap is a financial tool to ease transactions by exchanging certain elements of a loan in one currency, like the principal or interest payments into an equivalent loan in another currency.

Currency forward is an obligation of two parties to convert an agreed amount of one currency into another by a certain date at an exchange rate specified at the moment of signing the deal.

Russia and China have long been looking for ways to cut the dollar’s role in international trade. The question is significant for China as 32 percent, or $4 trillion of its foreign exchange reserves are in US bonds, which means there is a vulnerability to fluctuations in the exchange rate.

Russia’s foreign exchange reserves are worth $398 billion, and the US dollar accounts for about $162.45 billion.

The country’s economic growth has slowed amid a standoff with Western countries over the Ukrainian conflict. After the country’s financial sector faced EU and US sanctions it became hard for Russian businesses to raise finance in the West.

Chinese authorities are particularly interested in currency swap lines with developing countries, mainly from the Asia-Pacific region. Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Singapore, Hong Kong, Argentina, and Malaysia are actively involved in transactions with China.

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## opruh

NiceGuy said:


> China economy is going down badly now. its unemployment rate also rising. Dont know when China economy collapse, bro .
> 
> China only can produce cheap-low quality products. Its economy cant compare wt JP-German-US coz they can produce high quality-high tech products


Are you describing your Vietnamese economy.

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## AgentOrange

opruh said:


> Are you describing your Vietnamese economy.



He's projecting again. As NiceGuy said, "China economy going down bro" still means that the Chinese economy is growing faster than the failed state of Vietnam. 

As I mentioned before, for all his talk about fantasy scenarios of "China economy going down, China collapse", nothing is as bad as *actual real life Vietnam*. The one he lives in. He knows how bad his country is and he seethes with jealousy because Vietnam will never get any better. China could "economy going down" for 100 years and still be better than Vietnam is today.

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## NiceGuy

opruh said:


> Are you describing your Vietnamese economy.


Yep, our economy is also going down as the whole world economy is down now, so we dont boast abt VN economy as Chinese here.


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## ChineseTiger1986

AgentOrange said:


> He's projecting again. As NiceGuy said, "China economy going down bro" still means that the Chinese economy is growing faster than the failed state of Vietnam.
> 
> As I mentioned before, for all his talk about fantasy scenarios of "China economy going down, China collapse", nothing is as bad as *actual real life Vietnam*. The one he lives in. He knows how bad his country is and he seethes with jealousy because Vietnam will never get any better. China could "economy going down" for 100 years and still be better than Vietnam is today.



China's military budget alone is more than the entire GDP of Vietnam.

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## Foggy_Bottom

TaiShang said:


>



Putin rocks with his photo ops. N Korea has a lot to learn from him


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## terranMarine

US_statedept_retired said:


> Putin rocks with his photo ops. N Korea has a lot to learn from him


The way you post shows you are not old enough to be a retired old geezer much less someone from the state department.

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> The way you post shows you are not old enough to be a retired old geezer much less someone from the state department.



I'm assuming the fake state department Indian posted something inane. Just put him on ignore like I have. How pathetic does one have to be to pretend to be an ex-state department official to lend credence to his posts? Very sad. Certainly reflects badly on Indian people everywhere.

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## terranMarine

AgentOrange said:


> I'm assuming the fake state department Indian posted something inane. Just put him on ignore like I have. How pathetic does one have to be to pretend to be an ex-state department official to lend credence to his posts? Very sad. Certainly reflects badly on Indian people everywhere.


The guy wants to have credentials so what better way to do it than referring himself as a retired official and sticking the official logo as his avatar. I want to have that kind of authority too by putting Xi's photo as my avatar for i am the leader of China but since i'm not affected by some polluted drinking water i'm sane enough not to embarrass myself

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> The guy wants to have credentials so what better way to do it than referring himself as a retired official and sticking the official logo as his avatar. I want to have that kind of authority too by putting Xi's photo as my avatar for i am the leader of China but since i'm not affected by some polluted drinking water i'm sane enough not to embarrass myself



I was thinking of posting a picture of the pentagon on my profile pic and then claim that I'm a retired 4 star US general with 500 confirmed hand to hand terrorist kills. My screen name would have been "4 star retired US General McAwesome". And people would have believed that I was a retired US general because my handle said so.

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## terranMarine

AgentOrange said:


> I was thinking of posting a picture of the pentagon on my profile pic and then claim that I'm a retired 4 star US general with 500 confirmed hand to hand terrorist kills. My screen name would have been "4 star retired US General McAwesome". And people would have believed that I was a retired US general because my handle said so.


So how comfortable is the General's chair?

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> So how comfortable is the General's chair?



Very. But I came out of retirement because America needed me. I went to Iraq and destroyed 200 ISIS tanks with nothing but my bare hands and a heart full of freedom.

Also, I personally gave Pres. Putin pancreatic cancer through sheer willpower and my love of cheeseburgers and the constitution.

Right now, I'm teaching my pet bald eagle how to sing the Star Spangled Banner while drinking a Budweiser. It's a tough life but someone's gotta do it. It's all true because I said so and no one ever lies on the internet.

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## terranMarine

raise the flag oh mighty one

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> raise the flag oh mighty one



I have many decades of experience as a US general. But now I'm US General Retired.

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## terranMarine

AgentOrange said:


> I have many decades of experience as a US general. But now I'm US General Retired.


enjoy your well deserved state pension and live a luxurious American life  , but of course our retired state department official here doesn't want to retire, he's very pro active with his American propaganda here at PDF.

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## AgentOrange

terranMarine said:


> enjoy your well deserved state pension and live a luxurious American life  , but of course our retired state department official here doesn't want to retire, he's very pro active with his American propaganda here at PDF.



That's because he's only got 6 decades of experience at the state department while I have 9 decades of experience as a US general along with 4000 terrorist kills, 3000 of which were done with Charlene, my ballistic knife.

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## TheTruth

NiceGuy said:


> China economy is going down badly now. its unemployment rate also rising. Dont know when China economy collapse, bro .
> 
> China only can produce cheap-low quality products. Its economy cant compare wt JP-German-US coz they can produce high quality-high tech products



In Vietnam, 5% > 7%

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## AgentOrange

TheTruth said:


> In Vietnam, 5% > 7%

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## TaiShang

*Chinese yuan now accepted by Serbian central bank. *







Photo: © Sputnik/Aleksandr Yurev

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## TaiShang

*Three Reasons Behind the Ruble's Rebound: Will It Last? / Sputnik International

The Russian ruble has recently resurged 30% from its mid-December all-time low, but the outlook is still alarming and options are limited as cheaper oil and international sanctions weigh on Russia’s economy.*






© SPUTNIK/ MIKHAIL KUTUZOV

MOSCOW, December 26 (Sputnik), Kristian Rouz — Russia’s national currency, the ruble, hit its three-week high yesterday, further strengthening during today’s trading, due to several factors, both fundamental and momentary ones. The principal driving force behind the ruble’s resurgence has been speculation over that the government’s decision to ‘advise’ exporters into selling part of their hard-currency revenues in order to hold down a looming financial crisis. The fact of the matter is that the current tax period has prompted large-scale sell-offs in dollars and euros by the nation’s leading exporters as they are paying taxes in rubles. The other two factors behind the ruble’s rebound are Central Bank of Russia (CBR) policy measures aimed at boosting commercial bank capitalization and mounting the sell-off of Russia’s FX reserves, which peaked at $15.7 bln sold in the week ending December 19.

The Russian ruble added 0.86% against the dollar to 52.1; however, trade volumes have been low, as most global markets close during Christmas holidays. The ruble also strengthened against the euro to 63.7.

The recent developments are perceived as optimistic in the market as the ruble depreciated dramatically earlier this month to an all-time low of 79.17 versus the dollar from a psychologically comfortable average of 30 rubles per 1 dollar throughout the last 15 years.






© SPUTNIK/ VLADIMIR PESNYA

The main fundamental reason behind the ruble’s partial resurgence has been the tax period, coming each month, when the nation’s exporters, generating most of Russia’s hard-currency income, have been sellingdollars and euros and buying rubles as tax payments are ruble-denominated in Russia. However, this factor alone would not be sufficient to provide a sustainable recovery in the ruble’s FX rate. For instance, the ruble’s late-November highest point of 44.83 to the dollar came on November 24, but quickly slumped to 51.65 to the dollar on December 1, meaning the tax period provides only small volumes of hard currencies being sold on the domestic market, insufficient to shape the ruble’s FX rate. Fair enough: taxes are pretty low in Russia.

The markets have become more confident as the rumor spreads that Russian authorities have insisted exporters should sell more dollars and euros and buying more rubles than they need to pay taxes, salaries and cover other ruble-denominated expenses. This could be part of the Russian authorities’ plan to prevent a financial crisis caused by the lack of hard currencies on the domestic market, while many Russian companies have huge dollar-denominated foreign debts, amounting to over $678 bln total.

“Exporters are most likely selling their foreign-currency revenues following the government directive,” Sergey Vakhrameev of Moscow-based Ankor Invest toldBloomberg. “This is the key driver for the ruble’s gains.”






© SPUTNIK/ VLADIMIR ASTAPKOVICH

The second factor causing the ruble’s resurgence is the CBR policy measure aimed at bank recapitalization, which will be the main determinant of the ruble’s fluctuation as long as international sanctions remain intact. The Bank of Russia is implementing its plan to provide dollar-denominated liquidity to companies that need it the most as sanctions have largely cut them off from international lenders. All in all, the CBR is intending to lend up to $19 bln to commercial banks in order to prevent a full-scale financial crisis. Next year, Russia’s private sector has to pay off some $120 bln of external debts, and the CBR said yesterday it will provide further dollar- and euro-denominated loans to companies in need.

The measure, the CBR said, would allow Russian companies “manage their own currency liquidity and also refinance Russian exporters’ external foreign currency debts payable in the near future, in conditions of limited access to international capital markets.”

As the CBR provides more hard-currency liquidity on the domestic market, while simultaneously sucking up excess ruble liquidity by having raised its interest rate to 17%, the ruble strengthens. However, the effects of these policy measures are fragile.

The third factor, supporting the ruble, is the ongoing massive sell-off of Russia’s FX reserves on the domestic market. Between December 12 and 19, the CBR lost $15.7 bln of its FX reserves, some of which were sold in order to support the ruble, the rest being lent to banks and other enterprises. The total value of Russia’s FX reserves diminished from $414.6 bln on December 12 to $398.9 bln on December 19. According to CBR data, the regulator spent $4.8 bln on FX interventions and provided $9.8 bln in repo deals aimed at boosting hard currency liquidity within Russia.






© EAST NEWS/ AP

In such circumstances, Russia’s ruble remains fundamentally weak as its FX rate is supported via non-market regulative tools and policy measures. Russia’s national currency is lacking sustainability due to the negative effects of the international sanctions, cheaper oil and the excessive dollar- and euro-denominated indebtedness of the private sector. Russia’s authorities have said the reason behind the recent dramatic decline in the ruble’s FX rate was sheer currency speculation; however, in fact, FX speculators only added to the massive sell-off of rubles earlier this month. Short-to-mid-term risks for the ruble remain, determined by the shortage of hard-currency liquidity into Russia. The struggling nation might opt, however, to either impose limitations or direct control of capital flows, thus triggering immediate financial isolation. Another option could be the re-monetization of gold in an attempt to get rid of the dollar. Despite being a solid way of further development, the gold standard would, however, invoke all its well-known shortcomings, including the severe limitation on economic growth, higher short-term volatility, a threat of deflation and lack of flexibility in monetary policies during crises.

***

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## rott

@WebMaster , now it's even more difficult to like a post. Been trying to like a post for 10 minutes now and nothing happens. PDF was better a year ago.

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## BoQ77

*Russia, Japan likely to cooperate in creating Eurasian Economic Corridor*
Economy
December 30, 8:29 UTC+3 
“This concept is very topical in spite of all the current difficulties,” MP Kunio Hatoyama said




*Yukio Hatoyama*
© ITAR-TASS/EPA/SONG KYUNG-SEOK/POOL
TOKYO, December 30. /TASS/. Russia and Japan have perfect chances to take their cooperation in eastern Siberia and the Far East to a new level in 2015 if they set up the so-called Eurasian corridor, MP Yukio Hatoyama, an important figure in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party, said in an interview with TASS on Tuesday.

“This concept is very topical in spite of all the current difficulties,” said Hatoyama who has more than once occupied important governmental positions throughout his political career.






© EPA/MITSUI O.S.K. LINES/HANDOUT
 Japanese company to operate LNG Arctic Ocean route from Russia to Europe, East Asia 

He is president of the Japan-Russia Society, which unites the activists of different political forces, as well as large and medium-sized businesses.

“The concept of the Eurasian corridor is a major project of a fundamentally new development of the Trans-Siberian route from Europe to Vladivostok,” Hatoyama said. “It envisions not only a higher level of cargo haulage and development of natural resources (in the adjoining territories), but also the founding of up-to-date populated localities based on the utilization of highly advanced technologies and rationalized consumption of energy.”

“Japanese businesses are ready to take the most active part in developing the eastern section of the Eurasian corridor,” he said. “All the more that Russia’s current difficulties are provisional, I think.”

Hatoyama mentioned his visit to Moscow in October and his meetings with top executives of the Russian Railways state corporation, in the course of which agreement on promotion of the concept was reached.

He admitted that the outgoing year had been marked by difficulties in Japanese-Russian relation.

“The crisis around Ukraine wielded a heavy impact on them, as Japan was compelled to coordinate its positions with the US and the EU but Shinzo Abe’s government put maximum effort into making the measures, which this country adopted in cooperation with the West, as moderate as possible,” Hatoyama said.


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## xyxmt

NiceGuy said:


> China economy is going down badly now. its unemployment rate also rising. Dont know when China economy collapse, bro .
> 
> China only can produce cheap-low quality products. Its economy cant compare wt JP-German-US coz they can produce high quality-high tech products



there was a time when people said same thing about Japan, you always start from somewhere and no one can produce best quality from day one. Right now China is supplying low quality products to billions around the world who couldnt afforded high quality products from Germany and US, but in time those low quality user will have improvements in their life and be able to use high quality products, in the mean time china will graduate into high quality product club and still keeping his products users.

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## coffee_cup

terranMarine said:


> The way you post shows you are not old enough to be a retired old geezer much less someone from the state department.



Don't worry about him. He is Ram Chand, probably from somewhere in Kerala state/India.

The way he writes and posts fully reflect that.

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## Echo_419

TaiShang said:


> *China Challenges US Economic War against Russia by Directly Challenging NATO Power*
> 
> Alex Lantier | Wednesday, December 24, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Directly challenging the NATO powers’ policy of cutting off credit to Russia to undermine the ruble and bankrupt the Russian economy, China is pledging to extend financial aid to Moscow._
> 
> 
> On Saturday, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi stressed the need for mutual aid between China and Russia in remarks on the ruble crisis, which has seen a drastic 45 percent fall in its value against the dollar this year.
> 
> “Russia has the capability and the wisdom to overcome the existing hardship in the economic situation,” Wang said. “If the Russian side needs it, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity.”
> 
> *On Sunday, Chinese Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng told Hong Kong’s Phoenix TV that Beijing would strengthen ties with Moscow in energy and manufacturing, predicting that Chinese-Russian trade would hit its target of $100 billion this year despite the ruble crisis.*
> 
> As the ruble’s value in dollars or euros swings wildly, *Gao proposed moving away from the dollar in financing Chinese-Russian trade and instead using the Chinese currency, the yuan or renminbi.*
> 
> Gao said China would focus on “fundamental factors such as how the two economies complement each other,” Reuters reported. “Capital investors may be more interested in a volatile stock or foreign exchange market. But in terms of concrete cooperation between the two nations, we shall have a balanced mentality and push forward those cooperations,” Gao said.
> 
> *Yesterday, China Daily cited Li Jianmin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences saying that aid to Russia could pass through channels like the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) or the BRICS forum. Significantly, both the SCO (an alliance of China, Russia, and Central Asian states) and the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) exclude the United States and Europe.*
> 
> Li noted that already last month, when Chinese and Russian premiers Li Keqiang and Dmitry Medvedev met in Kazakhstan,* they signed extensive deals on railways, infrastructure and development in Russia’s Far East region, north of China.* “Loans, cooperation in major projects, and participation in domestic infrastructure investment in Russia are options on the table,” he added.
> 
> In one such deal last month, China signed a $400-billion, 30-year deal to buy Russian gas.
> 
> These offers of assistance cut across the economic war on Russia launched by US and European imperialism to punish Moscow for opposing their neo-colonial restructuring of Eurasia.
> 
> *In retaliation for Russian support for President Bashar al-Assad against NATO’s proxy war in Syria and Russian opposition to the NATO-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev, the NATO powers sought to financially strangle Russia.*
> 
> As Russian oil revenues fell in line with the fall in world oil prices and the ruble collapsed, they worked to cut off credit to Russia and demanded that Russia acquiesce to the Kiev regime. (See: Imperialism and the ruble crisis)
> 
> The basic financial mechanism of this strategy was laid out in London’s _Financial Times_ by Anders Aslund of the Petersen Institute for International Economics. “Russia has received no significant international financing—not even from Chinese state banks—because everybody is afraid of US financial regulators,” he wrote.
> 
> *With a yearly capital outflow of $125 billion, liquid foreign currency reserves of only $200 billion, and total foreign debts of $600 billion, Russia would run out of dollars and be bankrupted in as little as two years, Aslund calculated.*
> 
> *Now, however, Beijing appears to be accepting the risk of a showdown with the United States and publicly preparing to throw a financial lifeline to Russia. Chinese currency reserves of $3.89 trillion are the world’s largest and, on paper at least, allow Beijing to easily repay Russia’s debts.*
> 
> Significantly, the calls of Wang and Gao to aid Russia came a day after a divided European Union (EU) summit on Russia last week.
> 
> Though the EU supported US sanctions against Russia, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, French President François Hollande and Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi all publicly opposed calls for more sanctions.
> 
> Leading European newspapers also warned of the risk of a collapse of the Russian state.
> 
> The economic conflicts erupting between the major powers over the oil crisis and the imperialist war drive in Eurasia testifies to the advanced state of the crisis of world capitalism, and the rising risk of world war.
> 
> *Chinese aid to Russia, should it materialize, will exacerbate US conflict with China. Washington has tried to militarily encircle it through the “pivot to Asia,” allying with Japan, Australia, and India. Plans for war with China, both economic and military, are doubtless being pored over on Wall Street and in the Pentagon.*
> 
> A year ago, in an article titled “China must not copy the Kaiser’s errors,”_Financial Times_ columnist Martin Wolf warned China against any action that could be construed as a challenge to US global hegemony. He indicated that a Chinese policy replicating the German Kaiser’s challenge to British hegemony before the outbreak of World War I in 1914 would lead to a similar outcome: all-out conflict.
> 
> “If open conflict arrived, the US could cut off the world’s trade with China. It could also sequester a good part of China’s liquid foreign assets,” Wolf wrote, recalling that China’s “foreign currency reserves, equal to 40 percent of GDP are, by definition, held abroad.”
> 
> Such naked theft of trillions of dollars that China has earned from trade with the United States and Europe would directly raise the prospect of a collapse of global trade and preparation for war between nuclear-armed powers.
> 
> With its ever more reckless and violent policies, US imperialism is vastly overplaying its hand, discrediting itself at home and fueling opposition from rival states.
> 
> *By driving Russia and China together, in particular, Washington is undoing what was long seen as a major achievement of US imperialist statecraft: the 1972 rapprochement between US President Richard Nixon and Chinese leader Mao Zedong, which turned China into a US ally against the former Soviet Union.*
> 
> *“Many Chinese people still view Russia as the big brother, and the two countries are strategically important to each other,” Renmin University Associate Dean Jin Canrong said, referring to Soviet backing for China as it fought the United States in the Korean War, shortly after the Stalinist Chinese Communist Party (CCP) came to power in 1949.*
> 
> “For the sake of national interests, China should deepen cooperation with Russia when such cooperation is in need.”
> 
> “Russia is an irreplaceable partner on the international stage,” the CCP-linked _Global Times_ wrote in an editorial yesterday. “China must take a proactive attitude in helping Russia walk out of the current crisis.”



As side from the differences on the forum China & India share a good relation ship & India has never joined the US bandwagon of Encircling China.It was china in the cold war who tried to harm our Interest by colluding with the US

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## Aepsilons

This remains to be seen.

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## NiceGuy

xyxmt said:


> there was a time when people said same thing about Japan, you always start from somewhere and no one can produce best quality from day one. Right now China is supplying low quality products to billions around the world who couldnt afforded high quality products from Germany and US, but in time those low quality user will have improvements in their life and be able to use high quality products, in the mean time china will graduate into high quality product club and still keeping his products users.


JP can got Tech transfer from US when China never get US's high tech, and Chinese r not smart enough to make high tech products by themselves.


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## TaiShang

*Curbs on banks' yuan trading to be relaxed*




_A bank clerk counts money. [File photo]_


China will relax restrictions on banks' yuan trading from next year, in a small but significant move toward relaxing its capital controls.

The changes will replace daily caps on banks' foreign exchange positions with weekly limits, and for the first time establish unified standards for total foreign exchange positions that banks can hold.

The State Administration of Foreign Exchange published a set of new rules on Tuesday to simplify 14 sets of related regulations and add new provisions liberalizing banks' forex trading practices.

*"The timing is well chosen," said a senior dealer at a major European bank in Shanghai.

"With the dollar strengthening globally and emerging market currencies suffering from lingering weakness, it is a good time to relax restrictions."*

The yuan has lost 1.3 percent so far this month and looks set to close the year down 2.8 percent in the face of bearish pressure, which is expected to last well into 2015.

Starting Thursday, the SAFE will check banks' position compliance status each week, according to the rules published on the regulator's website, www.safe.gov.cn, leaving them leeway to short dollars within that period, traders said.

However, the SAFE appeared to discourage this interpretation in its statement.

*"While banks manage their positions on a weekly basis, their average daily positions should be kept within the limits defined by SAFE," the regulator said, in what traders said was an apparent signal that banks should not go too far.

While position caps for shorting dollars will remain unchanged, the SAFE has published standards for total forex positions that will apply to everyone.*

Banks previously needed to apply for quota individually.

All banks with less than $100 million worth of forex settlement business in the previous year will be allowed total positions of $50 million on average by the end of each day in a week, with a maximum short position value of $3 million, according to the new rules.

Those recording a value between $100 million and $1 billion will be granted total positions of $300 million and short positions of $5 million.

Those doing more than $1 billion of business can have total positions of $1 billion and short positions of $10 million.

"Those banks that cannot meet their business demand via the above-mentioned positions can apply to SAFE for additional quotas," the regulator said.

The rules also apply to China-based foreign banks; overseas lenders that have more than one office in China must appoint one key office to manage the positions, the rules said.

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## StarCraft_ZT

LOL Niceguy is quite active these days, even as a troll, you are full of BS. We've seen better ones.

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## NiceGuy

StarCraft_ZT said:


> LOL Niceguy is quite active these days, even as a troll, you are full of BS. We've seen better ones.


Pls show that China can make a good car like JP-German


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## Kyle Sun

NiceGuy said:


> JP can got Tech transfer from US when China never get US's high tech, and Chinese r not smart enough to make high tech products by themselves.


No matter what , We are far more better than you guys .



NiceGuy said:


> Pls show that China can make a good car like JP-German


Pls show that Viet can make a good car before you talk shit.

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## AgentOrange

Kyle Sun said:


> No matter what , We are far more better than you guys .
> 
> 
> Pls show that Viet can make a good car before you talk shit.



This is a Vietnamese made helicopter. It cost 70% of the Viet government's annual budget to produce and it can't fly because Viet scientists encountered technological difficulties when they put the rotor in the wrong location. Also, the instrument panel is actually an old Made-in-China black and whiteTV superglued to the front dash.

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## NiceGuy

Kyle Sun said:


> Pls show that Viet can make a good car before you talk shit.


We admit that we dont have good high tech like JP-German, so we dont boast abt economic war like some Ah Q Chinese


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## TaiShang

*U.S. sanctions undermine int'l cooperation with Russia*
English.news.cn 2014-12-31 

*

*
•Russian FM said Tuesday U.S. sanctions on Russian officials put in question bilateral cooperation.
• US Department of Treasury Monday added 4 Russians to its sanctions list.
• Russian FM criticized US for its "wilful" choices to pressure on Moscow by imposing more sanctions.


MOSCOW, Dec. 30 (Xinhua) -- Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said Tuesday the latest U.S. sanctions on Russian officials put in question the bilateral cooperation on major global problems.

The sanctions particularly hinders the efforts to reach a comprehensive agreement on Iran's controversial nuclear program and to find a peaceful solution for the Syrian crisis, according to the spokesman.

"It seems as if there are people in Washington who are itching to destroy the foundation of our bilateral relations," RIA Novosti news agency quoted Lukashevich as saying.

The spokesman said that the move was "totally politically motivated", warning that Russia has never left and will never leave such unfriendly moves unanswered.

The U.S. Department of Treasury on Monday added four Russians to its sanctions list under a law enacted two years ago following the death of Russian lawyer Sergei Magnitsky, who was described by the U.S. as a fighter against corruptions among Russian officials.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Saturday posted a year-end statement on its website, criticizing the U.S. for its "wilful" choices to step up pressure on Moscow by imposing more sanctions, which only resulted in the escalating tensions between the two countries.

The ministry also called for the restoration of bilateral relations, which is only possible when Washington is ready to respect Moscow's interests and conduct an equal dialogue.

*Spotlight: Amid tighter Western sanctions, Russia says retaliation in making*

MOSCOW, Dec. 21 (Xinhua) -- Russia vowed Saturday to take retaliatory measures against a fresh round of punitive measures, after the United States and Canada followed EU steps to rachet up sanctions over Crimea and for what they say Russia's role in the ongoing Ukrainian crisis.

U.S. President Barack Obama on Friday signed an executive order, imposing a ban on new investment in Crimea and barring export or import of goods, technology or services with the region, which joined Russia after a referendum in March.Full Story

*Spotlight: Besieged Russian economy to ride out recession*

MOSCOW, Dec. 19 (Xinhua) -- It has been more than a decade since Russians woke up to find again their ruble savings sharply depreciate against the U.S. dollar and the euro. Even worse, they would probably have to endure a few years of recession coupled with high inflation risks.

Meanwhile, both the Russian leadership and experts agree that the economy will ride out recession, as the country has started accelerating economic restructuring and diversification.Full Story

*Russia vows to retaliate against new U.S., Canadian sanctions*

MOSCOW, Dec. 20 (Xinhua) -- Russia vowed Saturday to take retaliatory measures against fresh U.S. and Canadian sanctions, calling the moves an evidence that the West lacks interest in settling the Ukraine crisis.

"The United States and Canada still cannot put up with the results of free declaration of will in Crimea and Sevastopol," Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said in a statement.Full story

*Russia must focus on innovation to gain economic independence: Medvedev*

MOSCOW, Dec. 19 (Xinhua) -- The Russian government should focus on supporting the innovation sector as a way to cut the country's independence on import and facilitate the solution to current economic woes, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Friday.

His remarks came at a time when the Russian economy hit the buffers following a plunge in the value of the ruble as well as the free fall in crude oil prices since June. Full story

*Out of control economic crisis in Russia not in EU interest: German FM*

BERLIN, Dec. 19 (Xinhua) -- German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier on Friday warned against a further tightening of EU sanctions against Russia.

In an interview with German news magazine Der Spiegel, Steinmeier said he was concerned that Russia would be destabilized if Europe does not loosen the sanctions. Full story

*News Analysis: New U.S. sanctions could add to Russia's economic woes, albeit indirectly*

WASHINGTON, Dec. 18 (Xinhua) -- Although a new round of U.S. sanctions against Russia might not have a direct impact, they could increase Russia's sense of panic and ratchet up pressure on the country's embattled economy, experts said.

U.S. President Barack Obama on Thursday signed into law a new round of sanctions against Russia, but for now, does not intend to use them, saying the administration is keeping an eye on the situation in Ukraine. Full story


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## Kyle Sun

NiceGuy said:


> We admit that we dont have good high tech like JP-German, so we dont boast abt economic war like some Ah Q Chinese


Yeah , you do not have such ability so you dont boast about the eco war but you boast about contain china blabla

Does that mean you guys have that military ability ?



AgentOrange said:


> This is a Vietnamese made helicopter. It cost 70% of the Viet government's annual budget to produce and it can't fly because Viet scientists encountered technological difficulties when they put the rotor in the wrong location. Also, the instrument panel is actually an old Made-in-China black and whiteTV superglued to the front dash.
> 
> View attachment 180009


You kdding me , right ?


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## AgentOrange

Kyle Sun said:


> Yeah , you do not have such ability so you dont boast about the eco war but you boast about contain china blabla
> 
> Does that mean you guys have that military ability ?
> 
> 
> You kdding me , right ?



I'm only joking a little. That's indeed a Viet produced helicopter. The pride of Vietnam. I think they're referring to it as 5th generation helicopter. Because it took 5 generations of Viets to finally come up with a piece of crap like that.

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## NiceGuy

Kyle Sun said:


> Yeah , you do not have such ability so you dont boast about the eco war but you boast about contain china blabla
> 
> Does that mean you guys have that military ability ?
> 
> 
> You kdding me , right ?


Thats true, we have been contained ur expansion to the South for hundred years. Mao's plot to occupy sub_mekong region failed,too.


> *I will say more to you comrades so that you may see more of the military importance of this matter. Mao asked me:
> 
> In Laos, how many square kilometers [of land] are there?
> 
> I answered:
> About 200,000 [sq. km.].
> 
> What is its population? [Mao asked]:
> 
> [I answered]: Around 3 million!
> 
> [Mao responded:] That’s not very much! I’ll bring my people there, indeed!
> 
> [Mao asked:] How many square kilometers [of land] are there in Thailand?.
> 
> [I responded]: About 500,000 [sq. km.].
> 
> And how many people? [Mao asked].
> 
> About 40 million! [I answered].
> 
> My God! [Mao said], Szechwan province of China has 500,000 sq. km., but has 90 million people. I’ll take some more of my people there, too [to Thailand]!
> 
> As for Vietnam, they did not dare to speak about moving in people this way. However, he [Mao] told me: “Comrade, isn’t it true that your people have fought and defeated the Yuan army?” I said: “Correct.” “Isn’t it also true, comrade, that you defeated the Qing army?” I said: “Correct.” He said: “And the Ming army as well?” I said: “Yes, and you too. I have beaten you as well. Did you know that?” I spoke with Mao Zedong in that way. He said: “Yes, yes!” He wanted to take Laos, all of Thailand – as well as wanting to take all of Southeast Asia. Bringing people to live there. It was complicated [to that point].*
> Comrade B in 1979 : the comment and prediction of a Vietnam leader on China aggression (Mao, Deng)


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## AgentOrange

NiceGuy said:


> Thats true, we have been contained ur expansion to the South for hundred years. Mao's plot to occupy sub_mekong region failed,too.



"Comrade B" sounds like a liar. Why the hell would someone randomly announce his intentions to invade a large swathe of land to the very people he intends to invade? Are all Viets brainwashed to believe that? Also, that piece of Viet propaganda doesn't even sound realistic. If the Viet government is going to fabricate an interview that never happened, at least get a better writer and lose some of the !!! exclamations. 

Tell you what. If the Viet government pays me 1 trillion Dong, I will write a new Chairman Mao/Viet Comrade B interview for you guys.

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## Kyle Sun

NiceGuy said:


> Thats true, we have been contained ur expansion to the South for hundred years. Mao's plot to occupy sub_mekong region failed,too.


The third military power of this world !!

We should nominate Viet , the 6th permanant memeber state of UN .

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## terranMarine

That loser runs out of trolling ideas, it's not creative to repeat the same old shit on a daily basis. But ofcourse that has never stopped him. He likes to laugh at countries who have bigger economies, more advanced than his own jungle. The dude looks down at the Pinoys despite the Philippines is doing better than that uncivilized habitat of his. I don't see the point coming from him making comparisons between China and Japan or whatever advanced nations he has in mind just to proof something to us which isn't relevant to begin with. We all know what China is capable of developing, it's just too difficult for such a simple minded creature to grasp unfortunately. Or perhaps he's the product of some American defoliant and today we are witnessing the effects of this legacy left behind by the Americans. I do feel a bit of sadness for our so called "child" client state

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## magic-007

NiceGuy said:


> We admit that we dont have good high tech like JP-German, so we dont boast abt economic war like some Ah Q Chinese


Some Vienamese are making fun of China is equal to youselves make fun of youselves. Make sure to know that Vietnam's GDP is inferior to a province of china . Sorry .

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## ravi kiran

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China's military budget alone is more than the entire GDP of Vietnam.


are you sure your claim is right??


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## ChineseTiger1986

ravi kiran said:


> are you sure your claim is right??



Our military expenditure varies among different sources, but it should be around the size of the Vietnam economy.

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## AgentOrange

Kyle Sun said:


> The third military power of this world !!
> 
> We should nominate Viet , the 6th permanant memeber state of UN .



They'd be the 6th permanent UNSC member...that constantly asks for handouts from the other 5 members.


ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our military expenditure varies among different sources, but it should be around the size of the Vietnam economy.
> 
> List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



In 2014, Vietnam's nominal GDP was around 187 billion. China's defence spending according to sipri for 2013 was 188 billion.

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## ChineseTiger1986

AgentOrange said:


> They'd be the 6th permanent UNSC member...that constantly asks for handouts from the other 5 members.
> 
> 
> In 2014, Vietnam's nominal GDP was around 187 billion. China's defence spending according to sipri for 2013 was 188 billion.



So China shouldn't have any problem to get 400 billion by 2020, considering our current growth rate is about 10% annually.

Also, for a 20 trillion economy, a military expenditure of 2% is not really high.

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## StarCraft_ZT

ravi kiran said:


> are you sure your claim is right??



I am not suprised. Even 6 or 7 cities in China individually has bigger economy than entire Vietnam. The military expenditure sure surpassed VN GDP

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## ravi kiran

StarCraft_ZT said:


> I am not suprised. Even 6 or 7 cities in China individually has bigger economy than entire Vietnam. The military expenditure sure surpassed VN GDP


i know china's development is very impressive. hope our leaders will do something like china did.

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## nvKyleBrown

xyxmt said:


> this cannot go on for a long time because all Europeans states, Canada and many countries have gotten used to lavish spending money collected from taxing gasoline, so the gas prices goes down 50% means their tax collection goes down 50%...bad for many economies.



Gas taxes (in the US at least, and I suspect elsewhere as well) are not levied on profit or price - it isn't "10% of sales receipts go to the government" or anything like that. Gas taxes are fixed adders per gallon (mostly, there are some cases of sales tax being applied as well). 
USA Gasoline Tax Map - Nevada Gas Prices

So, where I live we pay about $0.51/gallon in taxes. We paid 51 cents per gallon when gas was $4.50/gallon. We're still paying 51 cents per gallon now that gas is $2.60/gallon.

If anything, gas tax receipts will go up, as people can afford to buy more gasoline and travel more. Essentially, the government's share of what the consumer pays is rising.

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## NiceGuy

magic-007 said:


> Some Vienamese are making fun of China is equal to youselves make fun of youselves. Make sure to know that Vietnam's GDP is inferior to a province of china . Sorry .


yeah, then China is much poorer than US. So, stop making cheap fun abt eco war wt US , and dont drag VN in, we dont challenge NATO like Ah Q here.


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## ChineseTiger1986

NiceGuy said:


> yeah, then China is much poorer than US. So, stop making cheap fun abt eco war wt US , and dont drag VN in, we dont challenge NATO like Ah Q here.



So according to you, Russia is also Ah Q?

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## NiceGuy

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So according to you, Russia is also Ah Q?


Russia take Crime by force, they dont use 'spiritual victory' to take TW like CN


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## rott

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> So according to you, Russia is also Ah Q?


What does ah Q mean? In our dialect it does mean my mother's brother.

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## TaiShang

*Russia’s Pivot to Asia-Pacific*

27.12.2014 Julia Lyubova, Sergey Strokan

*Disillusioned with America and Europe, Russia is going eastwards, placing high stakes on the relations with China, India and other regional powers. A change of priorities in its foreign policy should enable Russia to battle Western sanctions and explore lucrative oriental markets, capitalizing on its unique geographical position in Eurasia.*

Studio guest _*Vladimir Sotnikov*_, Director of the East-West Strategic Studies Center, Moscow independent think-tank (studio guest), _*Dr. Taisuke Abiru*_, Research Fellow, Tokyo Foundation think-tank, _*Brian Yeung*_, an independent contributor to Chinese and English media in HK, AsiaGamingBrief contributing editor (Hong Kong), and _*Alexander Lomanov*_, leading research fellow, Institute of Far East, Russian Academy of Science, shared their opinions with Radio Sputnik.

*This Russia's pivot to Asia- Pacific, is this a new reality? *

_*Vladimir Sotnikov*_: Yes, this is a new reality and, at the same time, this is an old reality. We should make some review of what was the real reason and what the consequences were. So, the reason was actually emanating from President Putin’s third term.* I think, disillusioned with the West in general, with Russia's relations in general, President Putin decided that this is high time to look eastwards.* The Ukrainian events were a catalyst, but the real policy of changing the West for the East was laid down a little bit earlier, to my mind. 

*How do you assess Russia's potential in the region?*

_*Dr. Taisuke Abiru*_: From my point of view there are two strategic objectives for Russia to make a pivot to the Asia-Pacific. That would be the two diversifications.* One is from Europe to Asia, and the other diversification is not to be dependent on China, but to also have good cooperation with Japan, Korea and other countries.* That will be a difficult diversification. And I think that in this sense Russia's pivot to Asia is positively assessed among the Japanese experts.

*And despite some US pressure to apply more sanctions against Russia, Japan, along with other countries, like the South Korea, is actually reluctant to apply more sanctions on Russia. So, where do you put Japan in this political situation? *

_*Dr. Taisuke Abiru*_: This Russia's pivot to Asia started before the Ukrainian crisis, as far as I understand. So, Japan has kind of a nuanced approach for Russia, not only in the cooperation with the G7 countries, but also Japan has a soft approach towards the Russian sanctions. In this sense Japan is trying to take an independent line from the US because of the strategic contest in this region. I mean, the rise of China.

*And how important Russia is for the countries like Japan and South Korea?*

_*Dr. Taisuke Abiru*_: I think that from the Japanese point of view, especially in the energy cooperation Russia has already taken the important role. I mean, that Russia exports 10% of oil and gas of the whole Japan’s import. So, in this sense Russia has already taken an important role in this region. And Russia could increase this share. We very welcome Russia taking a more important role in this region.

*How important is it for China and how is it seen in China – this new direction that Russia is taking?*

_*Brian Yeung*_: I think from the Chinese perspective, we really welcome the Russian ambition to develop a more close relation particularly with China. We have a long history of partnership and friendship. *And both of us actually have the largest defense spending budget after the US. So, the idea of an alliance is very compelling to both of us. But we believe that we need to develop the economic collaboration, not just only the military perspective. *

*Russia offers vast natural resources, China is growing and needs more natural resources, like energy. So, that is why we signed the natural gas deal earlier this year. And we do believe that Russia does has an advantage in terms of geographical proximity, in helping the Chinese companies not just to target the Russian market, but also the Chinese market.*

*However, some Chinese companies do feel some difficulties in terms of investing in Russia, because the financial infrastructure isn’t that ready. For example, we do invest in Russia through an agent, usually broker or an investment bank and we don’t directly negotiate with the Russian counterparts. So, that is some of the direct links between Russia and China in terms of financial infrastructure. Another difficultly is the better currency of financing*. So, we do feel excited about the future opportunity to work closely to Russia. But we do hope that the financial infrastructure and other things could be more customized to the Asian audience.

*The talk of the year was this multibillion gas deal between Russia and China. There were quite opposite opinions. The critics were saying that Russia is turning into sort of a new colony of China, others were saying that it is Russia who would make China dependent on its energy resources. Where are you in this dispute?*

_*Dr. Taisuke Abiru*_: From the Chinese perspective, we don’t really feel that there is a political connotation to that deal. Basically, China is growing, our manufacturing sector is growing. So, we do need more energy. It will actually be a fairly good deal from the commercial perspective. 

*With this new Russia's strategy eastwards, in your opinion, is there anything that Russia is set to lose?*

_*Dr. Taisuke Abiru*_: I'm not sure whether we would lose something from working closely together. But I think we do have a lot of obstacles. And you look at not just the investment, but you look at the trade deals. Russia and China really want to boost their trade and target 200 billion by 2020, but the thing is that the economic structures of the two countries are not so parallel. Russia exports energy and natural resources, and China only exports manufactured goods to Russia.

*Now China is actually moving away from manufacture to the more high-tech technology and other sectors, like the innovation. So, our costs are getting high and we are not sure whether Russia is able or is interested in importing this kind of stuff from China. And on the other hand, if we want to boost the economic cooperation, we need more diversified trade, not just natural resources and energy.*

And one of the risks is that Russia and China could be kind of competitors in the Central Asia, because many Central Asian countries used to be part of the Soviet Union. But now the investment from China is increasing over the years. This year we had the Eurasian Economic Union signed in Astana. The union itself didn’t really show as promising, as the Chinese investment in the Central Asia. So, for the two countries to work more closely together there are some obstacles in terms of mutual trust and whether we can turn the competition in the Central Asia into trust and collaboration, and also to diversify the economies more.

*This new Russian strategy with China and other countries in the east – is this something that is to stay?*

_*Alexander Lomanov*_: I think it is a new global reality. And no would-be reconciliation between Russia and the West could delete or annihilate the would-be reality of the economic leadership of China in the global world. China is developing rapidly and there is no reason to see that this development will stop or decline. So, what we will see by the middle or by the end of the next decade is China number one in the global economy. And actually, everyone wants to be a friend of the new leader, including Russia, including other Asian countries or the European nations. It is all the same.

So, I would indicate that the Russia's orientation on the friendship with China, on the economic cooperation with China and with the Asia-Pacific region, it is a long-term goal which will not be undermined by the possible reconciliation between Russia and the West. And searching for the new friends in other parts of the world, like India, I think it is promising, because India still has a great potential for development which is not fully used yet. Russia has a very good and positive tradition of friendship with India, which lasts for more than 50 or 60 years. So, the friendship traditions will not be interrupted in the future.

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## NiceGuy

rott said:


> What does ah Q mean? In our dialect it does mean my mother's brother.


Ah Q is "Ah Qui/quei" . And "qui/quei" means Turtle, right ?? (in VNese: Quy= turtle).

The true story of Ah Q= _Ā Qiū zhèngzhuàn_ or Ā Kiū zhèngzhuàn. (In VNese: A Q chính truyện)


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## magic-007

NiceGuy said:


> yeah, then China is much poorer than US. So, stop making cheap fun abt eco war wt US , and dont drag VN in, we dont challenge NATO like Ah Q here.


There are many aspects in China challenge NATO ,but so far Vietnam seems to have nothing to have challenged aganist China or NATO. Not chinese look down on Vietnam but your behaviors of arrogance and morbidness have to be scorned.The urgent matter of Vietnamese is need to learn to introspection . Thanks

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## NiceGuy

magic-007 said:


> There are many aspects in China challenge NATO ,but so far Vietnam seems to have nothing to have challenged aganist China or NATO. Not chinese look down on Vietnam but your behaviors of arrogance and morbidness have to be scorned.The urgent matter of Vietnamese is need to learn to introspection . Thanks


U cant even take back TW, so stop bragging abt challenging NATO or US. We dont challenge any one, pls dont drag VN in , Mr.Ah Q.

The only aspect China can challenge NATO is 'spiritual victory', thats all.


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## xyxmt

nvKyleBrown said:


> Gas taxes (in the US at least, and I suspect elsewhere as well) are not levied on profit or price - it isn't "10% of sales receipts go to the government" or anything like that. Gas taxes are fixed adders per gallon (mostly, there are some cases of sales tax being applied as well).
> USA Gasoline Tax Map - Nevada Gas Prices
> 
> So, where I live we pay about $0.51/gallon in taxes. We paid 51 cents per gallon when gas was $4.50/gallon. We're still paying 51 cents per gallon now that gas is $2.60/gallon.
> 
> If anything, gas tax receipts will go up, as people can afford to buy more gasoline and travel more. Essentially, the government's share of what the consumer pays is rising.



in canada its 43%, breakdown is listed on every pump. a % is not a fixed price


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## TaiShang

TW is going nowhere. Partnership with Russia is the strategic urgency, I would say. TW will have to wait its turn. Just keep it in check but do not stir the waters. Yet. China needs to do the more important job of power build up.

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## mike2000

Loool. Joke of the year.


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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> Loool. Joke of the year.



Ex-PM Hatoyama is pro-China and pro-Putin.

And when the Abenomics is totally finished, he will become the PM again and bring Japan closer to the BRICS.

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## Galad

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> And when the Abenomics is totally finished


It is already finished -just check recent economical info for Japan.It was a total failure...as predicted from very beginning.Not only it did not stop Japan decline,on the contrary-it made it worse.

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## sicsheep

lol only if Russia wanted more sanctions


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## Huaren

No doubt Japan could provide Russia with all the honeyed words but when it comes to action Japan will always be looking up to uncle Sam for guidance/permission.

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## nvKyleBrown

xyxmt said:


> in canada its 43%, breakdown is listed on every pump. a % is not a fixed price


Motor fuel taxes in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Seems to indicate that Canada's system is mixed. First, an excise tax (fixed per L, but different from locale to locale). Then a series of Value Added and Sales taxes are applied, on the combined price+excise tax.

The impact on government revenue would be much harder to calculate in this case.


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## terranMarine

I like both Abe and Hatoyama, one wrecks Japan's economy the other has a pro China stance

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## mike2000

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Ex-PM Hatoyama is pro-China and pro-Putin.
> 
> And when the Abenomics is totally finished, he will become the PM again and bring Japan closer to the BRICS.



Loool you still think Japan will go against the U.S especially for critical/major issues that affects U.S influence/interests in the region.? You must be dreaming bro.

No matter how 'pro china' hatoyama or whoever might be, there are things Japan can't do simply because its not aligned with China and Russia, countries it still considers as threats/rivals and also due to its close alliance/mutual defence treaty with the U.S. moreover, the U.S can offer wayyyyy more to japan than russia ever could. So U.S and japan interests match for now.

so bro, pls let's be serious/realistic.

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## NiceGuy

Both China-JP r heavily influenced by Confucius. They learn well that when a nice man fell into a well, what should they do next.


> Tsai Yu, also known as Tsai Tsu-wo(子我), was one of Confucius' students. He was born in the kingdom of Lu and was later classified by Confucius in the group of people who were good at speech. Once he asked Confucius. "If somebody informs a benevolent person that a man fell into a well, should the benevolent descend into the well to save him?" Confucius replied, "Not necessaril


Russia is a nice man fell into the well now

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## mike2000

NiceGuy said:


> Both China-JP r heavily influenced by Confucius. They learn well that when a nice man fell into a well, what should they do next.
> 
> Russia is a nice man fell into the well now



Ahahahahahaha.......agree my friend niceguy, only that Russia is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from being a 'nice man'.

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## magic-007

NiceGuy said:


> U cant even take back TW, so stop bragging abt challenging NATO or US. We dont challenge any one, pls dont drag VN in , Mr.Ah Q.
> 
> The only aspect China can challenge NATO is 'spiritual victory', thats all.


 Your the only challenging weapon is your mouth, Use your mouth for counterattacking China and China will fail right now .So you won and all of you . Congratulation

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## Aepsilons

NiceGuy said:


> Both China-JP r heavily influenced by Confucius. They learn well that when a nice man fell into a well, what should they do next.
> 
> Russia is a nice man fell into the well now



There are no such thing as "friends" or permanent "alliances" in regards to nations, only permanent interests. Japan's cooperation and rapport with Russia will serve both interests of Japan and Russia, as various intergovernmental platforms have shown -- this is irrespective of the feelings of any of Japan's partners in the West. 

As for your reference to Confucian lit, are you purposely trying to troll ? It would be unequivocally foolish of you to try to , attempt, to disregard the fact that Vietnam has been influenced by Confucian culture for over a millennium.



mike2000 said:


> Loool. Joke of the year.



Not a "joke" per se, there's no doubt that Russia and Japan have overlapping mutual interests and there is a consensus in Japan to mend relations with Russia and secure energy sources there as well to establish emergency services regarding patrol vessels , fishing vessels from both our nations. Further developments do serve Japan's interests as it does for Russia. So in this vantage point, we should take this into consideration when analyzing the entire situation.

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## Echo_419

mike2000 said:


> Ahahahahahaha.......agree my friend niceguy, only that Russia is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from being a 'nice man'.




LOL


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## NiceGuy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> There are no such thing as "friends" or permanent "alliances" in regards to nations, only permanent interests. Japan's cooperation and rapport with Russia will serve both interests of Japan and Russia, as various intergovernmental platforms have shown -- this is irrespective of the feelings of any of Japan's partners in the West.
> 
> As for your reference to Confucian lit, are you purposely trying to troll ? It would be unequivocally foolish of you to try to , attempt, to disregard the fact that Vietnam has been influenced by Confucian culture for over a millennium.
> .


R u sure that u r a True JPese ?? U dont even understand why Confucius said that we should not help the nice man fell into the well .

Vietnam has been influenced by Confucian culture for over a millennium, thats why I also know Confucian and understand what did he (Confucius) imply in that story .


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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> There are no such thing as "friends" or permanent "alliances" in regards to nations, only permanent interests. Japan's cooperation and rapport with Russia will serve both interests of Japan and Russia, as various intergovernmental platforms have shown -- this is irrespective of the feelings of any of Japan's partners in the West.
> 
> As for your reference to Confucian lit, are you purposely trying to troll ? It would be unequivocally foolish of you to try to , attempt, to disregard the fact that Vietnam has been influenced by Confucian culture for over a millennium.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a "joke" per se, there's no doubt that Russia and Japan have overlapping mutual interests and there is a consensus in Japan to mend relations with Russia and secure energy sources there as well to establish emergency services regarding patrol vessels , fishing vessels from both our nations. Further developments do serve Japan's interests as it does for Russia. So in this vantage point, we should take this into consideration when analyzing the entire situation.




Agreed, I never said Japan shouldn't/would not cooperate with Russia in economic fields it needs Russia like oil and gas(well that's the only thing Moscow has to offer Japan to be honest.lol), and Japan should/would also continue trading with Russia, since trade/economic partnership doesn't determines alliances. For example Japan and Chiba trade with each other more than any country in Asia and the world(bar the U.S-China) but that doesn't means Japan is China's ally, isn't it? 

Same with U.S-China relationship, they both trade withwith each other than any country on earth, but that doesn't means they are allies, dies it? Same with China being largest trading partner of almost all countries in Asia, but does that means all these countries are chinas allies? In fact its the opposite for most. 

So what I'm trying to say is that economic partnership/trade doesn't determines alliances at all. If it did, China would have way more allies than the U.S by a wide margin.

So we should put things into perspective, Japan isn't changing its alliance with the west/U.S anytime soon. Much less joining the so called 'Eurasian union'.lol anyone who thinks otherwise is simply being wrong. Japan will carry on trading with China band to a lesser extent Russia (just like we in the west/U.S have been doing), but there won't be any change in Japans alliance with the wwes/U.S and Japan will obviously keep prioritizing its partnership with the west/U.S for a longggg time to come (just like we saw with Japan/western cordinated sanctions against Russia).


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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> Agreed, I never said Japan shouldn't/would not cooperate with Russia in economic fields it needs Russia like oil and gas(well that's the only thing Moscow has to offer Japan to be honest.lol), and Japan should/would also continue trading with Russia, since trade/economic partnership doesn't determines alliances. For example Japan and Chiba trade with each other more than any country in Asia and the world(bar the U.S-China) but that doesn't means Japan is China's ally, isn't it?
> 
> Same with U.S-China relationship, they both trade withwith each other than any country on earth, but that doesn't means they are allies, dies it? Same with China being largest trading partner of almost all countries in Asia, but does that means all these countries are chinas allies? In fact its the opposite for most.
> 
> So what I'm trying to say is that economic partnership/trade doesn't determines alliances at all. If it did, China would have way more allies than the U.S by a wide margin.
> 
> So we should put things into perspective, Japan isn't changing its alliance with the west/U.S anytime soon. Much less joining the so called 'Eurasian union'.lol anyone who thinks otherwise is simply being wrong. Japan will carry on trading with China band to a lesser extent Russia (just like we in the west/U.S have been doing), but there won't be any change in Japans alliance with the wwes/U.S and Japan will obviously keep prioritizing its partnership with the west/U.S for a longggg time to come (just like we saw with Japan/western cordinated sanctions against Russia).



The Japanese-American Global Alliance is a bedrock of both the Japanese and American Foreign Policy and it is the keystone in which Japan's defense maturation has been linked with. It shouldn't be necessary to reiterate the comprehensive cooperation Japan has with the United States when it comes to regional geopolitics as well as military interoperability. 

That said, while Japan stands shoulder to shoulder with the global strategem of its key partners in the West, there are opportunities for local political maneuverability, which is, in context to Japanese national security, quite fortuitous to acquire. Let me give some specific examples include the conclusion of an agreement to have greater cooperation between Japanese Coast Guard and Russian Coast Guard, the growing naval cooperation between the Russian Navy and the Japanese Maritime Self Defense force, plans for a pipeline to be build between Sakhalin to Hokkaido. All of these processes present itself as conduits for greater peaceful cooperation between Tokyo and Moscow , thus, a more stable Northeast Asia.

It is apparent that the instability in East Europe is due in part to the adventurism of the Russian Military in regards to the status of Crimea as well as the emergence of a NovoRussia, all of these are arguably destabilizing factors for Europe. However, in my opinion, the Japanese Leadership , while showing understanding to the West's opposition, wants to limit that instability in Eastern Europe. Why should the angst against Russia spread to Northeast Asia? Why should that regional disagreement be used as a context to further destabilize Northeast Asia ? It should not. In my opinion , Russia presents itself as partner to Japan, sure there are some military threats they pose, however, the Russians know of our abilities to counter that threat. While Russia and China are not considered "Aligned Allies" of Japan, they are , indeed, considered regional partners for peace. And there's a plethora of opportunities in this regard. 


Best,
@Nihonjin1051



mike2000 said:


> So we should put things into perspective, Japan isn't changing its alliance with the west/U.S anytime soon. Much less joining the so called 'Eurasian union'.lol anyone who thinks otherwise is simply being wrong. Japan will carry on trading with China band to a lesser extent Russia (just like we in the west/U.S have been doing), but there won't be any change in Japans alliance with the wwes/U.S and Japan will obviously keep prioritizing its partnership with the west/U.S for a longggg time to come (just like we saw with Japan/western cordinated sanctions against Russia).



The art of geopolitics is one that is based on responses to asymmetrical factors. While we are deeply linked and tied to the Global Japanese-American Alliance as well as with NATO, nations are able to engage in political , economic and cultural discourse with other relevant partner states that may not be part of said military alliance. And thus there are opportunities to engage with nations that are outside this sphere, that may be poised for greater partnership(s). 

In regards to China, I believe that most Japanese see China as a necessary partner for Japan. The goal is to balance the relationship we have with the United States and China. The underlying factor here is the necessity of Harmony. This is an East Asian cultural trait that you will see amongst the three East Asian societies: Japanese, Korean, Chinese. And this is the reason why we will see progression towards integration , wherein peace is a prerequisite. And if you study the recent policies enacted , the trend is pointing towards that reality.

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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Japanese-American Global Alliance is a bedrock of both the Japanese and American Foreign Policy and it is the keystone in which Japan's defense maturation has been linked with. It shouldn't be necessary to reiterate the comprehensive cooperation Japan has with the United States when it comes to regional geopolitics as well as military interoperability.
> 
> That said, while Japan stands shoulder to shoulder with the global strategem of its key partners in the West, there are opportunities for local political maneuverability, which is, in context to Japanese national security, quite fortuitous to acquire. Let me give some specific examples include the conclusion of an agreement to have greater cooperation between Japanese Coast Guard and Russian Coast Guard, the growing naval cooperation between the Russian Navy and the Japanese Maritime Self Defense force, plans for a pipeline to be build between Sakhalin to Hokkaido. All of these processes present itself as conduits for greater peaceful cooperation between Tokyo and Moscow , thus, a more stable Northeast Asia.
> 
> It is apparent that the instability in East Europe is due in part to the adventurism of the Russian Military in regards to the status of Crimea as well as the emergence of a NovoRussia, all of these are arguably destabilizing factors for Europe. However, in my opinion, the Japanese Leadership , while showing understanding to the West's opposition, wants to limit that instability in Eastern Europe. Why should the angst against Russia spread to Northeast Asia? Why should that regional disagreement be used as a context to further destabilize Northeast Asia ? It should not. In my opinion , Russia presents itself as partner to Japan, sure there are some military threats they pose, however, the Russians know of our abilities to counter that threat. While Russia and China are not considered "Aligned Allies" of Japan, they are , indeed, considered regional partners for peace. And there's a plethora of opportunities in this regard.
> 
> 
> Best,
> @Nihonjin1051
> 
> 
> 
> The art of geopolitics is one that is based on responses to asymmetrical factors. While we are deeply linked and tied to the Global Japanese-American Alliance as well as with NATO, nations are able to engage in political , economic and cultural discourse with other relevant partner states that may not be part of said military alliance. And thus there are opportunities to engage with nations that are outside this sphere, that may be poised for greater partnership(s).
> 
> In regards to China, I believe that most Japanese see China as a necessary partner for Japan. The goal is to balance the relationship we have with the United States and China. The underlying factor here is the necessity of Harmony. This is an East Asian cultural trait that you will see amongst the three East Asian societies: Japanese, Korean, Chinese. And this is the reason why we will see progression towards integration , wherein peace is a prerequisite. And if you study the recent policies enacted , the trend is pointing towards that reality.



As diplomatic as always,

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## Luca1

rott said:


> What does ah Q mean? In our dialect it does mean my mother's brother.



Which dialect is that?


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## Beidou2020

China's rise will accelerate the decline of American power and influence.

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## rott

Luca1 said:


> Which dialect is that?


Ke ja or hakka


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## senheiser

TASS: World - For China relations with Russia more important than with Japan — Huanqiu Shibao daily
December 30, 9:02 UTC+3 

As many as 1,515 respondents from seven Chinese cities, including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Changsha participated in the Huanqiu Shibao sociological survey devoted to Chinese world vision


BEIJING, December 30. /TASS/. The Chinese believe that stronger relations between Beijing and Moscow presently became more important than the development of ties with Japan, findings of a sociological survey indicated, the Huanqiu Shibao daily reported on Tuesday.

As many as 1,515 respondents from seven Chinese cities, including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Changsha participated in the Huanqiu Shibao sociological survey devoted to Chinese world vision.

According to sociological survey findings, 30.4% of respondents believe that relations between China and Russia are ranked second as to significance for the country after Chinese-US relations. Meanwhile, only 27.1% said about importance of bolstering relations between China and Japan — that is 11.5% lower than the opinion poll results in 2013.

The daily also noted that “disagreements on the Taiwan issue” and territorial disputes in the South China Sea hamper further development of Chinese-US relations.

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## bolo

AgentOrange said:


> This is a Vietnamese made helicopter. It cost 70% of the Viet government's annual budget to produce and it can't fly because Viet scientists encountered technological difficulties when they put the rotor in the wrong location. Also, the instrument panel is actually an old Made-in-China black and whiteTV superglued to the front dash.
> 
> View attachment 180009



I can help them solve that problem. Just put some bike pedals, attached the bike chain to the heli rotors and get some poor Vietnamese sap to start peddling really hard. It should fly.

it may be be Fred Flinstone tech, but it works



NiceGuy said:


> U cant even take back TW, so stop bragging abt challenging NATO or US. We dont challenge any one, pls dont drag VN in , Mr.Ah Q.
> 
> The only aspect China can challenge NATO is 'spiritual victory', thats all.


Making stupid accusations and masturbating of a sub mekong region controlled by vietnam make you the ah q, whatever the hell that means in vietnamese --anyways happy new year

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## mujhaidind

Peter C said:


> Probably does judo/karate because he has some complex due to his short height (1.70M 5'7")


 He is 5'5 max. He looks 2 inches shorter than modi who is 5'7.


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## Hamartia Antidote

mujhaidind said:


> He is 5'5 max. He looks 2 inches shorter than modi who is 5'7.


G20 world leaders' height revealed in infographic | Daily Mail Online






No sure about Modi


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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> G20 world leaders' height revealed in infographic | Daily Mail Online
> View attachment 180651
> 
> 
> No sure about Modi



Xi Jinping is 5'11" - 6.0"

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## Hamartia Antidote

AgentOrange said:


> Xi Jinping is 5'11" - 6.0"
> 
> View attachment 180654



I'd guess somewhere in the 5'10.5 - 5'11 range


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## AgentOrange

Peter C said:


> I'd guess somewhere in the 5'10.5 - 5'11 range
> View attachment 180655



About right.

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## Aepsilons

About the same height as Abe-San.



Peter C said:


> G20 world leaders' height revealed in infographic | Daily Mail Online
> View attachment 180651
> 
> 
> No sure about Modi



What about Park ? He he...


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## AgentOrange

*"Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and his wife Akie (L) pose for a photo with Chinese President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Summit on November 10. Mr Abe is 5ft 10in and Mr Jinping is 5ft 9in"*


LMAO. The caption for that picture says Xi is 5.9" and Abe is 5'10". Maybe all Asians look alike. Also, Mr. Jinping? Good job DailyMail. Quality editors as usual. 



Nihonjin1051 said:


> About the same height as Abe-San.
> 
> 
> 
> What about Park ? He he...



Yeah. Kind of dumb to not include Park and Modi in the lineup.

Author of the article: "Oh, lets do a story about the heights of the leaders of the G20 but only include G12 and then get their heights completely wrong. Also, we'll confuse their first and last names because we aren't familiar with Asian sounding names. I'll be sure to leave out the leader of the world's 2nd most populous country while I'm at it. It'll make for a smashing story!"

Editor: "Sounds good! Run the story. As long as David Cameron is in it and we don't misspell his name, we'll have achieved our minimal acceptable standards for the DailyMail."

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## Raphael

The Russian economy complements the Chinese economy, whereas Japan is and will increasingly be a competitor. Moreover, it would be unpleasant to let relations with a land-based neighbor sour, especially one who shares such a long land-border. Both relations are important, given that these are the two other major powers of the North/East Asian region, but if we have to prioritize...

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## terranMarine

Lets put Yao Ming there and the rest of the foreign leaders look like midgets

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## Hamartia Antidote

terranMarine said:


> Lets put Yao Ming there and the rest of the foreign leaders look like midgets



Manute Bol!




Damn he can touch the rim!

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## Developereo

Peter C said:


> Manute Bol!
> View attachment 180751
> 
> Damn he can touch the rim!



I always find it interesting that the net is the same height for giant adult players as it is for little kids.

I know the game is much more about tactics and ball play, but it would be good to have the net at a height that makes the players' height difference mostly irrelevant.


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## ChineseTiger1986

This is no brainer, China needs Russia to balance the US hegemony.

As for Japan, no matter what we have done for them, they will still remain a US puppet.

When Xi Jinping became the President, the first country he has officially visited was Russia.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Peter C said:


> G20 world leaders' height revealed in infographic | Daily Mail Online
> View attachment 180651
> 
> 
> No sure about Modi



This chart is not accurate. Xi is taller than Abe, and Obama is taller than Harper.



Peter C said:


> I'd guess somewhere in the 5'10.5 - 5'11 range
> View attachment 180655



GWB about 5'10, and Xi Jinping about 5'11.

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## Beidou2020

Japan deserves zero respect until they become a country with an independent foreign policy.

When you are a puppet, respect will not be given.

Russia complements China. Japan is a competitor.

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> Yeah. Kind of dumb to not include Park and Modi in the lineup.
> 
> Author of the article: "Oh, lets do a story about the heights of the leaders of the G20 but only include G12 and then get their heights completely wrong. Also, we'll confuse their first and last names because we aren't familiar with Asian sounding names. I'll be sure to leave out the leader of the world's 2nd most populous country while I'm at it. It'll make for a smashing story!"
> 
> Editor: "Sounds good! Run the story. As long as David Cameron is in it and we don't misspell his name, we'll have achieved our minimal acceptable standards for the DailyMail."



Seriously, what's wrong with these blokes?

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## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Seriously, what's wrong with these blokes?



Do you have a randomizer on your pic? haha

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## AgentOrange

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This chart is not accurate. Xi is taller than Abe, and Obama is taller than Harper.
> 
> 
> 
> GWB about 5'10, and Xi Jinping about 5'11.
> 
> View attachment 180808



I always thought Dubya was 6 feet tall for some reason.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Seriously, what's wrong with these blokes?



The DailyMail should change its name to the DailyChav. It's mostly tabloid stuff anyways. 

"You wot m8? 1v1 me in real life. I swear on me mum!"

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> "You wot m8? 1v1 me in real life. I swear on me mum!"




bwahahahaha! 

somehow i can hear buddy @mike2000 talk like that

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## AgentOrange

Nihonjin1051 said:


> bwahahahaha!
> 
> somehow i can hear buddy @mike2000 talk like that



Only if he owns a Burberry baseball cap with the price tag still attached. For some reason I don't think his wife would approve of him dressing that way.

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## terranMarine




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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> Only if he owns a Burberry baseball cap with the price tag still attached. For some reason I don't think his wife would approve of him dressing that way.



ha ha ha , is that the style in Britain nowadays? 

PS. I can so totally see @mike2000 sitting reading this --- sipping his cup of tea ...

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## AgentOrange

*Credit to Arzz of Reddit/Polandball*

*@mike2000 *

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> *Credit to Arzz of Reddit/Polandball*
> 
> *@mike2000 *
> 
> View attachment 180813




Buahahahahahahaha! 

I died when i read, "Dominion, Sweet Dominion..."

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## terranMarine

don't forget some English sandwich

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## mike2000

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Buahahahahahahaha!
> 
> I died when i read, "Dominion, Sweet Dominion..."



I must say that was funny.

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## My-Analogous

Russia should stop Gas supply and all its loan payments of west till these economic sanctions will be lift off.


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## Yizhi

AgentOrange said:


> *Credit to Arzz of Reddit/Polandball*
> 
> *@mike2000 *
> 
> View attachment 180813


this just made my day...

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## TaiShang

Great powers run multilateral diplomacy, engaging multiple actors with often unaligned interests simultaneously. 

The public survey, however, reflects the reality that, if we really needed to propose a scale, China-Russia relations would achieve higher score in terms of strategic importance than any other bilateral relations China has -- because Russia is both a land and also maritime power. 

China is not solely a territorial power anymore, hence, Russia does matter more. Japan matters today more than it was yesterday because China's Navy is growing stronger. As China's strategic horizon enlarges, so does the density of its engagements. 

For now, Japan matters economically more as China and Japan are unable to achieve a certain strategic alignment. China and Russia are aligned strategically more deeply over the past several years, which trumps over the deep economic cooperation China has with Japan. 

I does not mean Japan is less important or relationship with Japan is less meaningful. But, indeed, Russia means more in terms of China's vital national security interests.

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## Aepsilons

Raphael said:


> The Russian economy complements the Chinese economy, whereas Japan is and will increasingly be a competitor. Moreover, it would be unpleasant to let relations with a land-based neighbor sour, especially one who shares such a long land-border. Both relations are important, given that these are the two other major powers of the North/East Asian region, but if we have to prioritize...



Agreed. And I just want to add that despite geostrategic constraints, I do believe that it will be inevetible to realize an integrated Northeast Asia.



senheiser said:


> TASS: World - For China relations with Russia more important than with Japan — Huanqiu Shibao daily
> December 30, 9:02 UTC+3
> 
> As many as 1,515 respondents from seven Chinese cities, including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Changsha participated in the Huanqiu Shibao sociological survey devoted to Chinese world vision
> 
> 
> BEIJING, December 30. /TASS/. The Chinese believe that stronger relations between Beijing and Moscow presently became more important than the development of ties with Japan, findings of a sociological survey indicated, the Huanqiu Shibao daily reported on Tuesday.
> 
> As many as 1,515 respondents from seven Chinese cities, including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Changsha participated in the Huanqiu Shibao sociological survey devoted to Chinese world vision.
> 
> According to sociological survey findings, 30.4% of respondents believe that relations between China and Russia are ranked second as to significance for the country after Chinese-US relations. Meanwhile, only 27.1% said about importance of bolstering relations between China and Japan — that is 11.5% lower than the opinion poll results in 2013.
> 
> The daily also noted that “disagreements on the Taiwan issue” and territorial disputes in the South China Sea hamper further development of Chinese-US relations.



Good read. If I may infer, I believe that Japanese and Chinese are culturally and racially more alike than the Russians. This does not even consider the massive economic relationship Japan has with China, which enjoys a bilateral trade that exceeds $340 Billion per annum. We Japanese may have some historical differences with the Chinese, whom we consider a fraternal civilization, but we are more alike to them, racially and culturally , than any other. 

This is the truth.

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## somsak

New cold war: The side that has more friends win. Why? Because New Cold war will fight on heavily on economic front. Which side can influence more on the "world economy", which side will win. Abandoning Japan by any of both side is a strategically mistake because it just left vacuum for the other side to take.

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## Aepsilons

somsak said:


> New cold war: The side that has more friends win. Why? Because New Cold war will fight on heavily on economic front. Which side can influence more on the "world economy", which side will win. Abandoning Japan by any of both side is a strategically mistake because it just left vacuum for the other side to take.




We may be aligned with the United States, but this does not necessarily mean we won't enhance our bilateral relationship and various intergovernmental platforms with Beijing and Moscow. Northeast Asia has seen no war since the end of the Korean War and survived the Cold War, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. If the region can weather such a storm, I believe we can do much --- and thus our hope for continued equilibrium in this strategically vital region.

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## terranMarine

Both Russia and China ain't abandoning Japan, despite territorial disputes both major countries do trade with Japan. Nihonjin has often emphasized the huge trade between China and Japan. The strategic importance between China and Russia is a different matter and thus should be separated from economic viewpoint.

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## Pangu

Eurasia has a lot more potential for growth, this century belongs to us. It is imperitive that our countries manage all disputes in perspective of our greater wealth, co-operating together. Granted in any relation there is no true balance. But still, beware that we do not fall into ploys to exploit these differences. But I believe our leaders & planners are wise enough to out manuver, if not, to avoid them.

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## TaiShang

*Mutual aid may help support Russia through ruble crisis*
By Li Jianmin







The recent plunge of the Russian ruble came as a result of multiple combined factors. In practice, the ruble's value is correlated with the price of crude oil, making it a risky currency. The value of ruble is directly proportional to oil prices. As international oil prices have slumped since July, the ruble has witnessed an even steeper drop. 

*Besides, the ruble is a freely tradable currency and hence vulnerable to international venture capital. The ruble became the most volatile of the 41 major currencies tracked by Bloomberg in 2014.*

The US winding down its quantitative easing policy (QE) since 2013 pushed up the US Dollar Index and prompted the slide of oil prices, hitting emerging markets. 

This QE withdrawal has two effects. It drove down bulk commodity prices and prompted the reverse flow of capital from emerging markets to developed countries.

In the past one year and a half, 90 percent of emerging economies have been growing more slowly than previously. This may be a game between developed and emerging economies in a fresh round of economic cycle and Russia is only one of the targets hit.

Moreover, multiple rounds of sanctions imposed by the US and Europe on Russia due to the Ukraine crisis have created negative effects. They have severely shaken the confidence of investors and prompted an increasing tendency to avoid risks. The tremendous capital flight and sizable shrinkage in the stock market has accelerated currency deflation.

After the large-scale speculative sell-off of the ruble in foreign exchange markets, the Russian government was compelled to bailout, using its foreign exchange reserve. Its sovereign debt rating was downgraded, beginning a vicious cycle.

*Russia's fundamental problems lie in its economic structure and growth mode. Its development pattern supported by the export of raw materials can no longer be sustained. The Russian economy entered a period of slow growth in 2013. But due to the worsening problems of its structures and the decline in external demand, there is limited room for policy maneuvers.*

*The ruble's value against the renminbi also fell sharply, which had an extensive impact on Chinese enterprises in Russia. There was a significant drop in the sale of Chinese auto companies and heavy losses for Chinese businesses exporting light textiles and home appliances to Russia. Those ongoing projects priced in dollars may face the possibility that the Russian side doesn't have enough foreign currency for payments*.

So far the decline in oil prices hasn't hit rock bottom and the result of the ruble bailout has to be closely watched.

It's an acute question for decision-makers as to whether China should offer help if Russia faces financial difficulties. With regard to the broad vision and China's long-term development, China and Russia supporting each other will be normal for a long period.

Both sides have prioritized the development of bilateral relations as a strategic choice for their diplomacy and consider each other a supplier of important opportunities and an important partner. 

*China needs Russia's support and cooperation in advancing reform of the international system and global governance and implementing major strategies like the "One Belt and One Road" initiative. As emerging economies are faced with common challenges and opportunities currently, helping Russia is indeed helping ourselves.*

China has to give a helping hand to Russia whenever needed, whether it's for political, moral, strategic and economic considerations. 

It's necessary to follow the principle of achieving mutually beneficial, win-win results.

In addition, China can offer aid through multilateral mechanisms like BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization in various ways including loans, large project cooperation and investment in Russian infrastructure. 

_The author is a research fellow with the Institute of Russian, Eastern European, Central Asian Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. _

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## Nan Yang

Russia, sanctions, China and the arctic
Russian Sanctions, China, and the Arctic | The Diplomat

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## senheiser

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Agreed. And I just want to add that despite geostrategic constraints, I do believe that it will be inevetible to realize an integrated Northeast Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> Good read. If I may infer, I believe that Japanese and Chinese are culturally and racially more alike than the Russians. This does not even consider the massive economic relationship Japan has with China, which enjoys a bilateral trade that exceeds $340 Billion per annum. We Japanese may have some historical differences with the Chinese, whom we consider a fraternal civilization, but we are more alike to them, racially and culturally , than any other.
> 
> This is the truth.


you say that now when it comes to russians but you yourself are posting various kinds of pro american and western threads and posts. Russians and americans are also closer culturally than americans are to japanese but there is obvious reasons why Russia and the US have bad relationships.

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## Aepsilons

senheiser said:


> you say that now when it comes to russians but you yourself are posting various kinds of pro american and western threads and posts. Russians and americans are also closer culturally than americans are to japanese but there is obvious reasons why Russia and the US have bad relationships.



Japan maintains a pluralistic foreign policy. Japanese, in general, do not see the world through splitting lens of black and white, but, rather, we prefer to engage with all relevant partners, peoples. Look at the current relationship we have with Russia as a case example. Clearly we have differences in territorial claims, we still engage in trade with your side and maintain close cross-cultural exchanges and an active diplomatic foray. The same also for our relationship with China, to which we enjoy the region's largest bilateral trade -- exceeding already $340 Billion in 2014. Its called --- a mature foreign policy.


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## Shotgunner51

Russia and China are economically complimentary, forging a closer tie is essential for both. Moreover, both face geopolitical pressure from US-led West, so security co-operation, if not ally in serious sense, is gaining critical importance in the relationship.

Japan and China are competitors for resources, tech advancement, market share and most importantly economic leadership. Competing shouldn't damage relationship, but wouldn't go too close either. Security-wise, there's not much to co-op, given territorial dispute is unsolved, and difference in socio-political system maintains. I wouldn't say Japan is a puppet state, cos the presence of US actually keeps Japan, a nationalistic country, in-check. Like US presence in Europe helps to keep radicals in-check.

So for China, forging closer tie with Russia is essential now, while handling relationship with Japan carefully is important for the long run

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## Aepsilons

Shotgunner51 said:


> Security-wise, there's not much to co-op, given territorial dispute is unsolved, and difference in socio-political system maintains.



If I may convey a point of conjecture -- the maritime dispute between Japan and China is minor, as the issue of the Senkakus Islands (Diaoyutai) was shelved in the past, and will be shelved again. Besides a minor overlap between Japan's and China's ADIZ, both our sides have delineated a fishing zone for our fishermen, thus there are very minor (if any) flare ups at all, and if there are, they're handled maturely through coast guard. 

Let me also share with you an article I wrote early in 2014 regarding this relationship.
__________________________________________________________________________


*The 2008 East China Sea Partnership: Application to the 2012 Sino-Japanese Maritime Row*

By: @Nihonjin1051, Ph.Dc, M.S.​

Back in June of 2008 there were positive results of Japanese-Chinese Multilayered Intergovernmetalist approach to bridging differences in regards to territory in the East China Sea. After over three years of direct leadership consultation, Japan and China reached a Principled Consensus on the East China Sea. The Consensus consisted of three parts: 

1. Cooperation between Japan and China in the East China Sea

2. Understanding Between China and Japan on Joint Development of the East China Sea

3. Understanding on the Participation of Japanese Legal Person in the Development of Chunxiao Oil and Gas Field in Accordance with Chinese Laws. 







The Sino-Japanese cooperation; both sides had agreed to cooperation during the transitional period pending delimitation of their overlapping claims on the basis of not prejudicing the legal positions of either side. Both sides had also agreed to select, by mutual agreement, areas for joint development in the block under the principle of reciprocity. Shirakaba – Chunxiao oil and gas field was the area of contention for both sides. What should be known is that the Chinese side had invited Japan in developing the existing oil and gas field in accordance with Chinese Laws and granted reciprocity for Japan. 

If we look at the diplomatic history of both China and Japan , in regards to maritime boundary, we see a very positive and collaborative spirit. One has to remember that Japan and China had passed the Provisional Measure Zone, which was established by the China-Japan 1997 Fisheries Agreement, and is bounded by straight lines joining seven points roughly rectangular in shape. 

I want to reiterate that the 2008 China-Japan Consensus on the East China Sea Issue is very significant for both nations because it eases the maritime disputes that existed between both Japan and China. And it is conducive to peace and stability in the East China Sea. The recent maritime row between Japan and China is due to the Japan’s Nationalization of the Senkaku Islands and territories that were included in the 2008 China-Japan Consensus of the East China Sea. The 1997 Fisheries Agreement between Japan and China as well as the recent 2008 China-Japan Consensus of the East China Sea were all products of the Multilayered Intergovernmentalist approach, which allowed both Chinese Leadership and Japanese Leadership to find consensual agreement on areas of contention. And it has largely been quite successful, given the paucity of disagreements between Bejing and Tokyo prior to 2012. It is apparent that when both leaderships are affixed on resolving issues, they are readily addressed. 

One thing that Japan has to understand is the sensitivity of the Chinese side in regards to any unilateral action on the Japanese side. In fact, prior to the Nationalization of the Senkakus, there were practically no violent protests or official Chinese government response lambasting Japanese policy on said islands. The Chinese leadership was insulted on the Japanese side of nationalizing the islands , despite the fact that Japan already had de-facto control and administration of the area. The recent flyover of Chinese maritime spy planes into the Senkakus, and sporadic intrusion of Chinese Maritime Surveillance Ships are a recent phenomenon , and were a reaction to Tokyo’s unilateral proclamation. So, in this regard, Japanese Leadership needs to understand that the Chinese response is a reactive formation and thus it should be the Japanese side to approach China and bridge these differences. 

*Reference:*
Arima, A. (2013). Importance of international cooperation especially between China and Japan. _AIP Conference Proceedings_, _1533_(1), 5-12. doi:10.1063/1.4806770

Gao, J. (2009). A Note on the 2008 Cooperation Consensus Between China and Japan in the East China Sea. _Ocean Development & International Law_, _40_(3), 291-303. doi:10.1080/00908320903077100

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## opruh

Of course Great Powers like China and Russia sticks together.

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## Shotgunner51

Nihonjin1051 said:


> If I may convey a point of conjecture -- the maritime dispute between Japan and China is minor, as the issue of the Senkakus Islands (Diaoyutai) was shelved in the past, and will be shelved again. Besides a minor overlap between Japan's and China's ADIZ, both our sides have delineated a fishing zone for our fishermen, thus there are very minor (if any) flare ups at all, and if there are, they're handled maturely through coast guard.tical
> Let me also share with you an article I wrote early in 2014 regarding this relationship ...



Nice article. You are right about both China and Japan are taking pragmatic approach to territorial dispute, which is minor and compared to economic co-operation and hence should be contained properly.

What I meant about "not much to co-op on security" was that beyond bilateral dispute, there is no common security challenge arises from a third party that both can/will deal with together, be it IS, separatist, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, Venezuela or Palestine. Even for agenda like NK and SCS, China has to co-op with US, not Japan. Don't get me wrong, Japan is one of the best countries I have ever visited, China have too much to catch up in all social aspects, but on geopolitical and security agenda, China has to handle alone or thru co-operating with other P5 members.

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## jhungary

Shotgunner51 said:


> Nice article. You are right about both China and Japan are taking pragmatic approach to territorial dispute, which is minor and compared to economic co-operation and hence should be contained properly.
> 
> What I meant about "not much to co-op on security" was that beyond bilateral dispute, there is no common security challenge arises from a third party that both can/will deal with together, be it IS, separatist, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, Venezuela or Palestine. Even for agenda like NK and SCS, China has to co-op with US, not Japan. Don't get me wrong, Japan is one of the best countries I have ever visited, China have too much to catch up in all social aspects, but on geopolitical and security agenda, China has to handle alone or thru co-operating with other P5 members.



i think u have misunderstood what @Nihonjin1051 saying here

Trade and security co operation should be 2 distinct and seperate issue here, and should not be mixed when considering one or another

To put it as simple as possible, geopolitical situation never change, as the location of each country never change, but security concern change along with global political situation ingress. What might have been problem today may not be of concern tomorrow, yet China and Japan are and always are neighbours. 

Why choose when you could have done both? That is the issue Nihonjin takking about

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## Aepsilons

jhungary said:


> i think u have misunderstood what @Nihonjin1051 saying here
> 
> Trade and security co operation should be 2 distinct and seperate issue here, and should not be mixed when considering one or another
> 
> To put it as simple as possible, geopolitical situation never change, as the location of each country never change, but security concern change along with global political situation ingress. What might have been problem today may not be of concern tomorrow, yet China and Japan are and always are neighbours.
> 
> Why choose when you could have done both? That is the issue Nihonjin takking about



You hit the nail , @jhungary .


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## Shotgunner51

jhungary said:


> i think u have misunderstood what @Nihonjin1051 saying here
> 
> Trade and security co operation should be 2 distinct and seperate issue here, and should not be mixed when considering one or another
> 
> To put it as simple as possible, geopolitical situation never change, as the location of each country never change, but security concern change along with global political situation ingress. What might have been problem today may not be of concern tomorrow, yet China and Japan are and always are neighbours.
> 
> Why choose when you could have done both? That is the issue Nihonjin takking about



You got a point. Whenever possible, China and Japan should improve bilateral relationship, be it trade or security. Moreover, China has to be humble and learn from Japan, not just in business but social science. Though we share similar culture, Japanese society is way ahead in its harmony, politeness, sophistication, etc.

Japan is a plural society, just like others. There is a certain population that bears an ideology which is dangerous to China. For example, thoughts of PM Abe, right wingist are a potential threat to China's security concern. US presence in Asia helps to keep these dangerous ideology at bay, but as US influence fades out then it's hard to say what will happen. Japan doesn't trust China as well, it's understandable, we are run by CCP, they are a democracy. Neighbors' fear of militarism revival, tight US control, all this actually weakens Japan's credibility and hence ability to participate in international security agenda, and that's why I said beyond bilateral relationship improvement, there is not much for China to work with Japan.

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## TaiShang

*Russia’s Moment of Crisis: Moscow Might Be Down, but Not Out*





The National Interest

Written by Nikolas K. Gvosdev on 2015/01/02.

Western commentators reporting on events in Russia have a tendency to swing from one extreme to the next. Seven months ago, when oil prices were high and the Kremlin had seemingly amputated Crimea off from Ukraine without firing a shot, the narrative was about an unstoppable Vladimir Putin who would soon be overrunning all Eastern and Central Europe. Today, he is being placed on deathwatch, with prognosticators speculating about precisely when the Russian economy will collapse and Putin will be overthrown. With the precipitous fall in the value of the ruble—something a major interest-rate hikeby the Russian Central Bank seemed unable to reverse—some pundits are even crowing that the Ukrainian hryvnia is doing better than the Russian currency.





_The collapse in global energy prices, the impact of Western sanctions and the free fall in the ruble’s value are all quite serious economic problems for Russia. Credits: telegraph.co.uk_

It helps to step back and put the larger picture in perspective. The hryvnia is the currency of a country facing a major contraction in its GDP and on the verge of bankruptcy; investors are gambling that beyond the $27 billion aid package from the International Monetary Fund, the European Union and the United States will fund an additional $15 billion bailout. Ukraine’s energy supply is also quite tenuous, depending on a fragile agreement brokered with the Kremlin and conditional upon prepayment for supplies. Take out any of these factors from the equation and the hryvnia looks much less attractive as a bet.

The collapse in global energy prices, the impact of Western sanctions and the free fall in the ruble’s value are all quite serious economic problems for Russia. They will put tremendous strain on the Russian government and may even force radical revisions in some policies. But to assert that Russia is on the verge of collapse seems a bit premature. Moreover, Putin believes that he can ride out the short-term turbulence without having to make serious concessions to the West.

The ruble is losing value because both investors, as well as ordinary Russians are looking to lock in whatever they can salvage from the value of their savings. A seventy-year-old Russian will have lived through a series of currency devaluations in his or her lifetime (the introduction of “new rubles" in the Khrushchev era or the massive inflationary wave that came as a result of “shock therapy" in 1992). The current ruble is not backed by gold or oil and it freely floats, so, given worries about whether one’s 2013 rubles will be worth less than half of that value in 2015, it is not surprising that the run has accelerated as people seek safer storehouses of value for their currency holdings—which even a major interest-rate hike on the part of the Russian Central Bank is not sufficient as an incentive for keeping rubles. As the ruble loses value, imports become much more expensive—meaning that not only luxury goods, but a wide range of daily consumer products, including many foodstuffs, will become pricier. People will either have to do without—something that can fuel popular discontent over time—or the Kremlin will push for wage increases, creating the possibility of a destabilizing inflationary spiral. More ominously, Russian companies who borrowed funds for corporate expansion denominated in dollars or euros, but whose businesses are largely paid in rubles for their goods and services, are witnessing their debt burdens nearly double at an instant.

The collapse in energy prices is also problematic. It directly impacts the amounts available to the Russian treasury for what might be termed "safety spending"—massive developmental projects, the transfer of welfare payments to restive areas of the country like the North Caucasus, the equalizing of pensions and salaries in the newly-acquired Crimea. It also forces cutbacks in social spending, and we have already seen protests of potential cutbacks and changes in health-care policy. When oil and gas prices were high, the Kremlin could propose a massive new spending spree for defense without having to jeopardize the "butter" side of the equation—one of the trade-offs that helped doom the USSR. Now, with diminished revenues, the fight begins over what part of the rearmament program or which set of welfare payments will be cut to try and balance the books.

Finally, sanctions are having an impact because Western investment in Russia has been put on indefinite hold. Indeed, companies are postponing transactions that right now would still be legal for fear that they may be negatively impacted by future sanctions decisions. Deals that were grandfathered in (such as contracts for drilling in the Arctic ocean) or arrangements such as prepaying for future oil deliveries have been cancelled or suspended—depriving Russian firms of needed investment cash.

But while the Russian economy has been battered and is certainly down, it is by no means out. A number of major Russian exports—starting with energy, but also encompassing nuclear power equipment and arms—are paid for in dollars or euros. Even with lower global prices for oil and natural gas, the depreciation of the ruble has meant that the expenses of such companies—wages, payments for domestic goods and services and so on—counterbalance the fall in prices, because Western exchange now buys many more rubles.

Russia also has not lost its natural-resource endowment. We can expect if the ruble continues to slide or be unstable that there will be an increased effort to mine and hold greater reserves of gold, diamonds and platinum and to use those stockpiles to maintain and even expand foreign currency reserves. Energy is also a hidden trump card. With EU-Russian relations at an all-time nadir, European efforts to push Russia to equalize domestic and foreign prices for energy (so that Russian consumers would have to pay nearly the same price as Europeans for energy) will get nowhere—especially now that Brussels' opposition helped to scrap the South Stream pipeline. In the past, Russian industry benefited from being able to pay much cheaper prices for energy and passing those savings along to consumers around the world.

*People around Putin like Russian deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin are hoping to turn this crisis into an opportunity. By making many key imports from Europe too expensive, they hope to deliver a double blow: a shot in the arm for domestic reindustrialization efforts and to create some pain for European economies which have depended on the growth in Russian demand (both industrial and consumer) for their goods. *They believe that an appeal to nationalism will rally the population in the short term to endure a degree of austerity and that, given the cover of the ruble's collapse, Russia can engage in domestic protection of its industries without falling afoul of its World Trade Organization commitments. The gamble is that Europe's own recovery will stall and that Ukraine's economic situation will become untenable, forcing both Kiev and the EU to consider reaching a compromise settlement with Russia.

There are two additional wildcards. The first is what happens in 2015 to energy prices. One good geopolitical crisis in the Middle East or a renewed burst of major instability in a key producer that takes an important chunk of daily production off the market (as, in the past decade, happened in Libya, Nigeria or Venezuela) and prices tick back upwards. Another black-swan disaster (another nuclear accident a la Fukushima or a major environmental catastrophe laid at the feet of fracking) would be a boon to Russia's markets. Even a modest recovery in energy prices a few months down the line will do much to alleviate the current crisis.

*The second is the response of the Asians. Economic crisis makes the Russians more willing to compromise their demands, especially with China. With Western imports becoming more expensive, China may sense an opportunity to push ahead with a more favorable ruble-yuan exchange rate because with the current peg to the dollar, even Chinese exports to Russia would become more expensive. President Xi Jinping may be more willing to extend an economic lifeline to Russia as a way to preserve Chinese equities. And Japan remains a cypher. Putin's nationalist bonanza in claiming Crimea may give him the maneuvering room to cut a deal with Japan that would see some concessions to Tokyo over the disputed islands—allowing Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to burnish his nationalist credentials—and in return, increasing Japanese investment and support to the Russian economy. The islands question will surely be on the agenda of the working group planning Putin's 2015 visit to Japan.*

The real question, in the end, is whether Western analysts have miscalculated the fundamental political bargain in Russia. Many of us assumed that the relatively free hand Putin had in shaping domestic political life was predicated on the promise of high standards of living. Certainly among some of the middle class, we have seen definitive rumblings—but whether that is sufficient for forcing change is not at all apparent. We are now seeing a test as to the real sources of the government's legitimacy. Are people willing to be poorer for the sake of maintaining Russia as a great power?

_Nikolas K. Gvosdev, a contributing editor at the National Interest, is a professor of national security studies at the Naval War College and co-author of Russian Foreign Policy: Interests, Vectors and Sectors._


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## TaiShang

*China and Russia to launch new credit rating agency in 2015*
Published time: January 13, 2015 14:17





Reuters/How Hwee Yong


The new Universal Credit Rating Group (UCRG) is being set up to rival the existing agencies Moody's, S&P and Fitch, and its first rating will be issued this year.

The setting up of UCRG is in its final stages, ready to challenge the ‘Big Three’ that currently dominate the industry, the Managing Director of RusRating Aleksandr Ovchinnikov told Sputnik News Agency on Tuesday.

_"In our opinion, the first ratings [will] appear … during the current year,"_ Ovchinnikov said, adding that accreditation with the local regulator is already underway.

The news comes on the heels of Fitch’s decision to follow S&P in downgrading Russia’s sovereign credit rating to BBB-, a step above junk level and on par with India and Turkey.

The new agency will be based in Hong Kong, and provide a check on the ‘Big Three’, which some analysts say don’t provide an accurate reading of economic situations.

*Many securities and bonds in the US that had triple-A ratings in 2008 and were considered ‘safe’, turned out to be a bubble, revealed by the subprime mortgage crisis.*

_"When the issue of creating an agency alternative to the ‘Big Three’ [Standard & Poor's, Moody's, and Fitch Group] was raised, we in fact offered [a] project that was ready to be launched and was supported by the governments of Russia and China,"_ Ovchinnikov said.

Developed economies are often given a free credit rating pass, whereas developing economies are assigned more risky ratings, the RusRating analyst said.

UCRG was officially created in June 2013 by China’s Dagon, Russia’s RusRating and America's Egan-Jones Ratings. Each member will hold an equal share in the venture, with an initial investment of $9 million.

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## Galad

About time!Western " honest" credit rating agency have been caught enough times in doing favors and downgrades at solely political reasons.Just like recent downgrade of Russia.

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## TaiShang

First Ratings by Russian-Chinese Agency to Be Released in 2015 / Sputnik International

MOSCOW, January 13 (Sputnik) — The first ratings of Universal Credit Rating Group (UCRG), which was created with the participation of Russia and China, are expected as early as 2015, the Head of the Research Department at RusRating Alexander Ovchinnikov told Sputnik on Tuesday.

"In our opinion, the first ratings [will] appear … during the current year," Ovchinnikov told Sputnik. According to him, the project is in its final stage.

"[The information is] gathered, the headquarters in Hong Kong [is] [working] …, and accreditation with the local regulator is underway. Moreover, there are preliminary agreements [with] other local agencies and investment funds joining the project soon," Ovchinnikov said.

The RusRating analyst emphasized that the agency was created as a reaction to the bankruptcy of American investment funds with unreasonably high ratings.

"When the issue of creating an agency alternative to the "Big Three" [Standard & Poor's, Moody's, and Fitch Group] was raised, we in fact offered [a] project that was ready to be launched and was supported by the governments of Russia and China," Ovchinnikov said.





© PHOTO: WIKIPEDIA

According to the analyst, UCRG satisfies the demand of those investors who have repeatedly criticized the Big Three agencies for standardized approaches that overestimate the opportunities of the developed economies while underestimating those of the developing ones.

*UCRG was officially created in June 2013 as a partnership between the Chinese Dagong, the Russian RusRating and the American Egan-Jones ratings agencies. According to Ovchinnikov, new members will also be engaged in the partnership in the future.*

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## magic-007

TaiShang said:


> First Ratings by Russian-Chinese Agency to Be Released in 2015 / Sputnik International
> 
> MOSCOW, January 13 (Sputnik) — The first ratings of Universal Credit Rating Group (UCRG), which was created with the participation of Russia and China, are expected as early as 2015, the Head of the Research Department at RusRating Alexander Ovchinnikov told Sputnik on Tuesday.
> 
> "In our opinion, the first ratings [will] appear … during the current year," Ovchinnikov told Sputnik. According to him, the project is in its final stage.
> 
> "[The information is] gathered, the headquarters in Hong Kong [is] [working] …, and accreditation with the local regulator is underway. Moreover, there are preliminary agreements [with] other local agencies and investment funds joining the project soon," Ovchinnikov said.
> 
> The RusRating analyst emphasized that the agency was created as a reaction to the bankruptcy of American investment funds with unreasonably high ratings.
> 
> "When the issue of creating an agency alternative to the "Big Three" [Standard & Poor's, Moody's, and Fitch Group] was raised, we in fact offered [a] project that was ready to be launched and was supported by the governments of Russia and China," Ovchinnikov said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © PHOTO: WIKIPEDIA
> 
> According to the analyst, UCRG satisfies the demand of those investors who have repeatedly criticized the Big Three agencies for standardized approaches that overestimate the opportunities of the developed economies while underestimating those of the developing ones.
> 
> *UCRG was officially created in June 2013 as a partnership between the Chinese Dagong, the Russian RusRating and the American Egan-Jones ratings agencies. According to Ovchinnikov, new members will also be engaged in the partnership in the future.*


 
Buddy,the stuffs in your hand are indeed too many ! No matter what i kick thread can see all kinds of stuffs you posted .

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## TheMatador

India will be downgraded to "Z minus"

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## Martian2

There are three great space-faring nations in the world. Yet, only two (China and the U.S.) are prosperous. Why is Russia a laggard (e.g. can't build five-axis machine tools, supercomputers, and semiconductor processors)?

An interesting problem is the Prisoner's Dilemma. How does China get Russia to build Amur River-bridges that would benefit both nations in trade? The Russians are strictly-logical people and cannot seem to transcend the bound of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Russian logic dictates that China will benefit more from Amur River-bridges. Thus, Russia has refused to agree to building bridges across the Sino-Russian border for decades. This is a lose-lose proposition, but perfectly logical under the Prisoner's Dilemma.

China and the United States play a much more complicated game. The Prisoner's Dilemma is an idealized academic problem. In the real world, the Prisoner's Dilemma surfaces repeatedly in multiple iterations. The Russians are pretty mindless simpletons and always play the non-cooperation card.

In contrast, China always play the cooperation card. In the majority of the cases, the United States reciprocate with cooperation. However, the United States will occasionally play the non-cooperation card (e.g. impose tariffs on Chinese solar panels). Intelligently, China responds with a non-cooperate response (e.g. ban all U.S. polysilicon suppliers to Chinese solar panel manufacturers). Due to Chinese retaliation, the U.S. makes the correct move and reverts back to cooperation (e.g. cut tariffs on Chinese solar panels in half from 30% to 15%).

The following "Nice Guys Finish First" video explains the dynamics of the Prisoner's Dilemma when played in multiple iterations as in real life. As you watch the video, remember the *Russians always play "defect." China always plays "cooperate" initially and moves to "Tit for Tat" as a long-term strategy. The United States mostly plays "cooperate" with an occasional "defect" against China.*

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## tranquilium

Pretty sure Russia can build supercomputers, and semiconductor processors just fine. Russia's current problem stems from failed economic reforms in Yelstin and Gorbachev era (not that the decade following USSR was any better). While it is tempting to blame that on some type of inherent fault, the reality is that shit happens. Reforms can succeed and fail, Russia was unfortunately enough to have more of latter and less of former.

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## ito

Who the f*** wrote this nonsense. As usual Chinese bragging on full display

Russia per capita: 23,200 PPP dollars
China per capita: 11,850 PPP dollars.

And how come China is more prosperous than Russia?

China is big on aggregate because it has large population.


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## tranquilium

ito said:


> Who the f*** wrote this nonsense. As usual Chinese bragging on full display
> 
> Russia per capita: 23,200 PPP dollars
> China per capita: 11,850 PPP dollars.
> 
> And how come China is more prosperous than Russia?
> 
> China is big on aggregate because it has large population.



Look, the article is entirely aimed at Russia. Leave China alone.

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## Martian2

tranquilium said:


> Pretty sure Russia can build supercomputers, and semiconductor processors just fine. Russia's current problem stems from failed economic reforms in Yelstin and Gorbachev era (not that the decade following USSR was any better). While it is tempting to blame that on some type of inherent fault, the reality is that shit happens. Reforms can succeed and fail, Russia was unfortunately enough to have more of latter and less of former.



Stop making nonsensical claims. Show me a reputable citation or stop making false claims.

Name a single advanced Russian semiconductor plant that can manufacture at 28nm or a more advanced node. You can't. It doesn't exist.



ito said:


> Who the f*** wrote this nonsense. As usual Chinese bragging on full display
> 
> Russia per capita: 23,200 PPP dollars
> China per capita: 11,850 PPP dollars.
> 
> And how come China is more prosperous than Russia?
> 
> China is big on aggregate because it has large population.



Russian currency has fallen in half from 35 to 66 Rubles per US dollar. Your numbers are off by 50%. Also, Chinese GDP per capita has increased for last year.

Looking into the future, Chinese GDP will continue to grow at 7%. Russia has admitted its economy will contract and head into recession for the next two years. In conclusion, the claim (that China is prosperous and the future for Russia is bleak) is entirely reasonable.

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## ito

Martian2 said:


> Stop making nonsensical claims. Show me a reputable citation or stop making false claims.
> 
> Name a single advanced Russian semiconductor plant that can manufacture at 28nm or a more advanced node. You can't. It doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Russian currency has fallen in half from 35 to 66 Rubles per US dollar. Your numbers are off by 50%. Also, Chinese GDP per capita has increased for last year.



Just because Russian currency falls, peoples living standards would not fall that fast. And see I have quoted the per capita by PPP. 

You assume a lot. First Prisoners Dilemma is pure strategy game. Either players cooperate or compete. There are no grey areas. Countries both cooperate and compete at the same time. So no game theory here


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## ito

Martian2 said:


> If you don't mind, this thread is for Chinese, Russians, and Americans. Thank you.



If you don't mind, this is an open forum. Indians, Chinese, Russians, and Americans are all welcome. If you don't like, leave the forum. Thank you.


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## IsaacNewton

I won't underestimate Russia. It is economically weak right now, but things will change. It has a very educated population, strong tradition in science and engineering, unlimited resources, and strong leadership. What it needs to be a superpower again is less tension with the west, and less corruption from the state. 

Post Crimea war, Europe thought Russia was done for, until the Russo-Turkish war scared that crap out of Germany and Austria prompting them to form an alliance. 

Post WW1, Russia was seen as an irrelevant power, they didn't even get much say in the Treaty of Versailles. They were economically weak, politically unstable, and militarily disorganized. Yet, under Stalin's 5 year plans, Russia became an industrial superpower. 

When Hitler invaded Russia in 1941, many military analysts thought Russia would lose within half a year, yet by 1945, Russia emerged as a superpower. 

Russia had trouble transforming from communism for many reasons. They over invested in military and heavy industry, so they lost a lot of skilled labor when they made the transaction. A lot of industries (like ship building) collapsed over night because of how the chain of commands was organized with in the USSR countries. Also, USA and Western Europe heavily recruited Soviet scientists and engineers ( 25% of USA STEM professors are of Soviet background for instance) causing a massive brain drain. This is compounded by corruption, civil war within Checnya, ect. 

I think if you give Russia 20 years of peace, it will inevitably recover and become a superpower again. Russia has many capable people, but Putin and his gang running the country needs to go. 

As far as Russia-China relation goes. Russia knows that it has the potential to be a superpower, along with China, but currently China is the stronger country economically. Russia does not want to be a little brother of China, so it is overly concerned about more economic relation with China. The good news is, this is changing. Russia and China's trade has increased many folds since last year, and many deals has been reached. I think within a few years, there will be a lot more people to people exchange between the two countries.


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## rcrmj

ito said:


> Who the f*** wrote this nonsense. As usual Chinese bragging on full display
> 
> Russia per capita: 23,200 PPP dollars
> China per capita: 11,850 PPP dollars.
> 
> And how come China is more prosperous than Russia?
> 
> China is big on aggregate because it has large population.


Saudi has much higher PPP than the US, so it must be more prospers than the US? lol what kind of logic is that?

China is all-round development, but Russia has to rely heavy on natural resources, its heavy, light and IT industry is almost none existence compared to West Europe, U.S, Asia Pacific and China``so yes China is more prosper than Russia, there is no question about that

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## ito

rcrmj said:


> Saudi has much higher PPP than the US, so it must be more prospers than the US? lol what kind of logic is that?
> 
> China is all-round development, but Russia has to rely heavy on natural resources, its heavy, light and IT industry is almost none existence compared to West Europe, U.S, Asia Pacific and China``so yes China is more prosper than Russia, there is no question about that



Prosperity is based on per capita and not on aggregate. If Saudi on an average earn more than a US citizen, then yes Saudi are more prosperous than US citizens


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## JSCh

If you talk about geopolitical moves, there are cooperation and competition among all 3 parties.

I think both Russian and US do not cooperate when they perceive that China is going to gain quite a bit MORE.

Under those circumstances, I think we could expect the Russian to at least left the option for cooperation open. The same cannot be said for the US. For eg. space industry and technology.

I think your perception of Russian play defect always, is because you expect too much from the Russian.

The best scenario would of course be that one day in the future, China is capable enough to bring more to the cooperation. And of course, long term trust is very important.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Normally, Russia's favored trade partners should always be the Europe and the West.

That was their own personal choice as being racially/culturally closer to the West.

However, now under this special circumstance, we always welcome for more bilateral ties and cooperation.

And the door is always opened for Russia whenever they are willing to enhance the cooperation.

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## opruh

ito said:


> Who the f*** wrote this nonsense. As usual Chinese bragging on full display
> 
> Russia per capita: 23,200 PPP dollars
> China per capita: 11,850 PPP dollars.
> 
> And how come China is more prosperous than Russia?
> 
> China is big on aggregate because it has large population.


The author is probably the one bragging not China, you illiterate Indian.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ito said:


> Just because Russian currency falls, peoples living standards would not fall that fast. And see I have quoted the per capita by PPP.
> 
> You assume a lot. First Prisoners Dilemma is pure strategy game. Either players cooperate or compete. There are no grey areas. Countries both cooperate and compete at the same time. So no game theory here



The living standard in China might not be necessarily lower just because of the currency standard.

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## Keel

ito said:


> Who the f*** wrote this nonsense. As usual Chinese bragging on full display
> 
> Russia per capita: 23,200 PPP dollars
> China per capita: 11,850 PPP dollars.
> 
> And how come China is more prosperous than Russia?
> 
> China is big on aggregate because it has large population.



PPP is just one out of many ways of measuring prosperity.

There is a Prosperity Index hereunder which evaluates prosperity based on:

Economy, Entrepreneurial Opportunity, Governance, Education, Health, Safety and Security, Personal Freedom, Social Capital
http://www.prosperity.com/#!/ranking

2014 ranking:
China @ 54
Russia @68
Saudi Arabia @47

So some of the comments from our compatriots were right. There is no China-bragging here. China is better than Russia but not by a lot. You may group the above 3 countries in the same bracket by and large.

... err where is India?

@ 102

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## krst

Martian2 said:


> There are three great space-faring nations in the world. Yet, only two (China and the U.S.) are prosperous. Why is Russia a laggard (e.g. can't build five-axis machine tools, supercomputers, and semiconductor processors)?
> 
> An interesting problem is the Prisoner's Dilemma. How does China get Russia to build Amur River-bridges that would benefit both nations in trade? The Russians are strictly-logical people and cannot seem to transcend the bound of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Russian logic dictates that China will benefit more from Amur River-bridges. Thus, Russia has refused to agree to building bridges across the Sino-Russian border for decades. This is a lose-lose proposition, but perfectly logical under the Prisoner's Dilemma.
> 
> China and the United States play a much more complicated game. The Prisoner's Dilemma is an idealized academic problem. In the real world, the Prisoner's Dilemma surfaces repeatedly in multiple iterations. The Russians are pretty mindless simpletons and always play the non-cooperation card.
> 
> In contrast, China always play the cooperation card. In the majority of the cases, the United States reciprocate with cooperation. However, the United States will occasionally play the non-cooperation card (e.g. impose tariffs on Chinese solar panels). Intelligently, China responds with a non-cooperate response (e.g. ban all U.S. polysilicon suppliers to Chinese solar panel manufacturers). Due to Chinese retaliation, the U.S. makes the correct move and reverts back to cooperation (e.g. cut tariffs on Chinese solar panels in half from 30% to 15%).
> 
> The following "Nice Guys Finish First" video explains the dynamics of the Prisoner's Dilemma when played in multiple iterations as in real life. As you watch the video, remember the *Russians always play "defect." China always plays "cooperate" initially and moves to "Tit for Tat" as a long-term strategy. The United States mostly plays "cooperate" with an occasional "defect" against China.*



housewife


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## FairAndUnbiased

Eastern Europeans are indeed extremely logical people. That means they think too straight for Chinese. Chinese are flexible. Eastern Europeans just believe that if you bang your head harder against the brick wall, eventually the wall will go down. Chinese try to climb or tunnel the wall.

That is why Eastern Europeans are really good at "deep" research that explores very hard concepts in a pure field, while Chinese tend to like interdisciplinary, broad fields more.

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## krst

The Chinese in general want everyone to be happy. That is their interdisciplinary ways.


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## Nan Yang

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Eastern Europeans are indeed extremely logical people. That means they think too straight for Chinese. Chinese are flexible. Eastern Europeans just believe that if you bang your head harder against the brick wall, eventually the wall will go down. Chinese try to climb or tunnel the wall.
> 
> That is why Eastern Europeans are really good at "deep" research that explores very hard concepts in a pure field, while Chinese tend to like interdisciplinary, broad fields more.



Not just Eastern European vs Chinese but also all European vs North East Asian.


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## krst

In general, Asians help in continuing the same outcomes of house life and every countries in life for hundreds of years, including working and language. Working is no longer putting together a physical item but incorporating each persons way of living and how each of us does things to match it to society. There is no individual thinkings. I do believe there are better ways of living for yourself. Unfortunately, b/c all countries are involved in keeping all the same things of life going, we just keep repeating the same mistakes and "frustrations" of life over and over....again. Same repetitions and the same poor and the same rich generation after generation, physically and mentally repeating.


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## onebyone

Keel said:


> PPP is just one out of many ways of measuring prosperity.
> 
> There is a Prosperity Index hereunder which evaluates prosperity based on:
> 
> Economy, Entrepreneurial Opportunity, Governance, Education, Health, Safety and Security, Personal Freedom, Social Capital
> http://www.prosperity.com/#!/ranking
> 
> 2014 ranking:
> China @ 54
> Russia @68
> Saudi Arabia @47
> 
> So some of the comments from our compatriots were right. There is no China-bragging here. China is better than Russia but not by a lot. You may group the above 3 countries in the same bracket by and large.
> 
> ... err where is India?
> 
> @ 102

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## FairAndUnbiased

Nan Yang said:


> Not just Eastern European vs Chinese but also all European vs North East Asian.



Japanese are better at deep, traditional research. Just check out the research of Chinese professors and Japanese professors - most Chinese professors do things that are broad and interdisciplinary, while Japanese professors do traditional projects.

In Europeans, I think that British are moving towards interdisciplinary subjects, but the most interdisciplinary are Americans, who strongly emphasize that route. Alot of the top research going on is at the boundary between traditional fields.

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## krst

I believe each country has their own way of coming out to be the same way of life, just alittle bit of sugar. (in general) The bible has not changed for thousands of years still teaching the same things but I believe their are people who are more for humanity than for a book. But I believe there are people who are most comfortable with the bible whether true or not. Our leaders all have the same goal in mind which is the outcome of the bible in a different way. sickening.


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## nalan

Everyone could be a teacher to a "failer"


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## ArsalanKhan21

Air Defense: China Gets The Russian Long Arm

Air Defense: China Gets The Russian Long Arm

January 24, 2015: Russia recently revealed that it had sold China six battalions of its new S-400 anti-aircraft missile system. Each battalion will cost $500 million and includes training as well as spare parts and additional missiles. Each S-400 battalion has eight launchers, each with two missiles, plus a control center and radar and 16 missiles available as reloads. All equipment is mobile. S-400 is also known as the S-300PMU-3, SA-21 or Triumf and was renamed S-400 because it turned out to be far more than just another upgrade of the S-300 and was considered sufficiently different to warrant a name upgrade. Russia deployed its first S-400 battalion in 2010, around Moscow.

The S-400 is similar to the U.S. Patriot and pays particular attention to electronic countermeasures that the Americans might have, or be developing. The missiles are also physically larger and have longer range as well as being very expensive. Russia began seeking export sales in 2011. The S-400 missiles weigh 1.8 tons each and are 8.4 meters (26 feet) long and about 50cm (20 inches) in diameter. The missiles have a range of some 400 kilometers, and can hit targets as high as 31,000 meters (100,000 feet). The missile has a 145.5 kg (320 pound) warhead. The target acquisition radar has a range of 700 kilometers. The missiles are built to last for 15 years before needing refurbishment.

The S-400 has over twice the range of the U.S. Patriot, weighs twice as much and claims the ability to detect stealthy aircraft. The S-400 also has an anti-missile capability, which is limited to shorter range (3,500 kilometers) ballistic missiles that are within 60 kilometers of an S-400 launcher. That would mean a warhead coming in at about 5,000 meters a second (the longer the range of a ballistic missile, the higher its re-entry speed.)

The S-400 system actually has two types of missiles, one of them being smaller, with a shorter range (120 kilometers). These are deployed four to a launcher, like all other S-300 systems. The larger missile actually has two versions, one with a range of 250 kilometers and a more expensive one with a range of 400 kilometers. The S-400 has no combat experience, but U.S. intelligence believes that the tests these systems have undergone indicate it is a capable air defense weapon. Just how capable won't be known until it actually gets used in combat.

Russia plans to buy up to 200 launchers (each with two or four missiles) by 2015, and phase out the older S-300 and S-200 systems. This would mean deploying at least 18 battalions by 2017 and 56 by 2020 (or organized into 28 battalions containing two battalions each). China plans to deploy its first S-400 battalion opposite Taiwan. That one battalion can cover all Taiwanese air space. The next battalions will be deployed to deal with Japan, South Korea and Vietnam.

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## Imran Khan

ok good news congs china russia .happy shooting guys


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## ChineseTiger1986

The source is not reliable.

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## j20blackdragon

The air defense system of the 052D is already more advanced than anything produced in Russia, including S-400.

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## Saifullah Sani

*Warming ties between China and Russia are giving a big boost to Chinese imports of Russian oil, to the chagrin of OPEC nations jockeying for a slice of China's market.* Faced with falling prices and lower demand from the U.S., oil-exporting nations are increasingly putting their hopes in China's still-robust demand for crude. But Saudi Arabia and other big producers like Venezuela have seen such sales drop as Moscow's isolation from the West over Ukraine prompts it to turn to Beijing, The Wall Street Journal reports.

The death of Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah adds a measure of uncertainty to OPEC's oil policies, which boosted prices in global oil markets after the news early Friday, though analysts say the kingdom is unlikely to change its strategy and reduce production. That is despite a global glut of crude that is fueling new rivalry between OPEC and Russia for China's market—as well as among OPEC nations themselves.

Officials of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, which declined to cut oil production last year, reasoned that maintaining high production levels would protect market share in crucial importing nations.

*But Chinese customs data released Friday show that China's crude imports from some big OPEC nations have plummeted, while imports from Russia surged 36% in 2014. Meanwhile, imports from Saudi Arabia fell 8% and those from Venezuela dropped 11%.*

As American companies have pumped soaring amounts of oil from shale, U.S. imports of Saudi Arabia's crude oil and petroleum products have also fallen, dropping to 25.6 million barrels a month in October, from more than 42 million barrels a year earlier.

The changing pattern in China's imports is one result of Russian President Vladimir Putin turning to China as an economic lifeline as Moscow is shunned by the West over the Ukraine crisis.

For the original full-length article go to: Russia, OPEC Jostle to Meet China Oil Demand - WSJ

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## TaiShang

China is in the process of building up its strategic reserves and filling them up. So there will be increasing demand although this may not mean an equally increasing consumption.

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## Keel

Saudi Arabia and Angola still remain as the #1 and 2 exporters to China
I think we should import more from Venezuela so as to help them out with their depressing economy and debt repayments to us.
Cost of transporting oil is another main concern too.


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## cirr

Time to buy up and fill up every decrepit oil tanker available。

Cease or cut domestic production，send the oil workers home and have them on standby for 80% salary。


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## Bussard Ramjet

j20blackdragon said:


> The air defense system of the 052D is already more advanced than anything produced in Russia, including S-400.


So why will you buy it?

PS - Please don't take this as trolling, I seriously wanna know. All foreign media have been portraying it as a major decision taken by Russia after western sanctions to help China which desperately wanted it.

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## $@rJen

wooo... China has no faith in their systems anymore ??


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## Bussard Ramjet

sarjenprabhu said:


> wooo... China has no faith in their systems anymore ??


I request you to avoid trolling and engage everyone respectfully.

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## $@rJen

Bussard Ramjet said:


> I request you to avoid trolling and engage everyone respectfully.



I'm not trolling.... its a serious question. Chinese claim they're no depending on anyone and their Techs are way better that Russians and compared to the west!!! but still why buy from Russia??


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## Bussard Ramjet

sarjenprabhu said:


> I'm not trolling.... its a serious question. Chinese claim they're no depending on anyone and their Techs are way better that Russians and compared to the west!!! but still why buy from Russia??



It could have been done more respectfully. I have indeed asked the same question, and we don't know anything, it is quite plausible that the western media is just giving everything a very wrong spin. China could be doing this (I suspect this isn't the case though) to help Russia financially for all we know...

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## Genesis

Bussard Ramjet said:


> So why will you buy it?
> 
> PS - Please don't take this as trolling, I seriously wanna know. All foreign media have been portraying it as a major decision taken by Russia after western sanctions to help China which desperately wanted it.


Why would you think we bought it? If media rather than Chinese posters on forums( that's actually very reliable, I have suspicious on why that is) have it, it doesn't mean we bought it.

IF it did, we have 300 SU-35 already.

You will learn that strategic page is not very reliable, I don't want to say how I know that exactly, well, just read their stuff, some are obvious, some are not, but that's about as good a source on Chinese weapons as is TMZ.

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## Beast

Strategypage? Haha, the self claimed guru whose comment is as good as steve emerson on terrorism.

I just check rosoboronexport website. No such deal exist and all Russia export will go thru this agency. Fraud news.

Look at the indian so desperate to believe this news. Thinking we have no faith on our own missile. But our missile is too advance and superior.

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## Nexus

Woo...the Russians are angry now


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## Wolfhound

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Air Defense: China Gets The Russian Long Arm
> 
> Air Defense: China Gets The Russian Long Arm
> 
> January 24, 2015: Russia recently revealed that it had sold China six battalions of its new S-400 anti-aircraft missile system. Each battalion will cost $500 million and includes training as well as spare parts and additional missiles. Each S-400 battalion has eight launchers, each with two missiles, plus a control center and radar and 16 missiles available as reloads. All equipment is mobile. S-400 is also known as the S-300PMU-3, SA-21 or Triumf and was renamed S-400 because it turned out to be far more than just another upgrade of the S-300 and was considered sufficiently different to warrant a name upgrade. Russia deployed its first S-400 battalion in 2010, around Moscow.
> 
> The S-400 is similar to the U.S. Patriot and pays particular attention to electronic countermeasures that the Americans might have, or be developing. The missiles are also physically larger and have longer range as well as being very expensive. Russia began seeking export sales in 2011. The S-400 missiles weigh 1.8 tons each and are 8.4 meters (26 feet) long and about 50cm (20 inches) in diameter. The missiles have a range of some 400 kilometers, and can hit targets as high as 31,000 meters (100,000 feet). The missile has a 145.5 kg (320 pound) warhead. The target acquisition radar has a range of 700 kilometers. The missiles are built to last for 15 years before needing refurbishment.
> 
> The S-400 has over twice the range of the U.S. Patriot, weighs twice as much and claims the ability to detect stealthy aircraft. The S-400 also has an anti-missile capability, which is limited to shorter range (3,500 kilometers) ballistic missiles that are within 60 kilometers of an S-400 launcher. That would mean a warhead coming in at about 5,000 meters a second (the longer the range of a ballistic missile, the higher its re-entry speed.)
> 
> The S-400 system actually has two types of missiles, one of them being smaller, with a shorter range (120 kilometers). These are deployed four to a launcher, like all other S-300 systems. The larger missile actually has two versions, one with a range of 250 kilometers and a more expensive one with a range of 400 kilometers. The S-400 has no combat experience, but U.S. intelligence believes that the tests these systems have undergone indicate it is a capable air defense weapon. Just how capable won't be known until it actually gets used in combat.
> 
> Russia plans to buy up to 200 launchers (each with two or four missiles) by 2015, and phase out the older S-300 and S-200 systems. This would mean deploying at least 18 battalions by 2017 and 56 by 2020 (or organized into 28 battalions containing two battalions each). China plans to deploy its first S-400 battalion opposite Taiwan. That one battalion can cover all Taiwanese air space. The next battalions will be deployed to deal with Japan, South Korea and Vietnam.


This means we are going to get a reverse engineered model in the near future


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## BoQ77

Genesis said:


> Why would you think we bought it? If media rather than Chinese posters on forums( that's actually very reliable, I have suspicious on why that is) have it, it doesn't mean we bought it.
> 
> IF it did, we have 300 SU-35 already.
> 
> You will learn that strategic page is not very reliable, I don't want to say how I know that exactly, well, just read their stuff, some are obvious, some are not, but that's about as good a source on Chinese weapons as is TMZ.



@Genesis : we got information, but it's hard to judge their validity.
Similar to Su-35, will China buy them?


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## AgentOrange

Bussard Ramjet said:


> So why will you buy it?
> 
> PS - Please don't take this as trolling, I seriously wanna know. All foreign media have been portraying it as a major decision taken by Russia after western sanctions to help China which desperately wanted it.



There's been no evidence of any sale. Furthermore, there's been no confirmation that China has any S-400s in its possession. I'd take these Russian arms sales reports with a grain of salt. On a similar note, China has been "buying" the Su-35 for 5 years now.

And the rumor that China "bought" Greece's Zubr hovercrafts was an April Fools troll post started on another Chinese defence forum that was subsequently picked up by numerous "respectable" news sites and passed off as real. (The actual article that everyone ended up quoting is full of d1ck jokes but it fooled people all the same. Read if for a cheap laugh. )

Don't believe anything you read until you actually see it in Chinese colors.

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## sword1947

Seeing is believing, no picture no truth.

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## Aepsilons

*Moscow: * Russia is exploring the possibility of a joint manned orbital station with India and China as part of a common strategy to create technological alliances and may take up the matter with the two Asian space giants in July.

"Moscow could propose to China and India to create a joint manned orbital station at the summit of the BRICS emerging economies in Russia's Ufa in July," a document drafted by the expert council at Russia's military and industrial commission said today.

The experts recommend "working out the possibilities of an international manned project with BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) countries as part of a common strategy of creating technological alliances", Itar Tass reported.

"We can start this work now and include the issue in the agenda of the BRICS business council in Ufa," the document reads.

In particular, Russia should make such a proposal to India and China, which have been actively developing their manned space programmes, the experts say.

Other perspective areas for further research could be modular rockets using methane as fuel and also the creation of an aerospace vehicle, which could be used in the future to construct a fighter or a bomber of the sixth generation.

Russia May Create Joint Orbital Station with India, China

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## Ind4Ever

Another Super power tries to play with growing power china and India. Hope we don't draw our miniature map on moon and do the same in the future


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## Genesis

We have that, it's called our own space station 2022.

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## AgentOrange

Nihonjin1051 said:


> *Moscow: * Russia is exploring the possibility of a joint manned orbital station with India and China as part of a common strategy to create technological alliances and may take up the matter with the two Asian space giants in July.
> 
> "Moscow could propose to China and India to create a joint manned orbital station at the summit of the BRICS emerging economies in Russia's Ufa in July," a document drafted by the expert council at Russia's military and industrial commission said today.
> 
> The experts recommend "working out the possibilities of an international manned project with BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) countries as part of a common strategy of creating technological alliances", Itar Tass reported.
> 
> "We can start this work now and include the issue in the agenda of the BRICS business council in Ufa," the document reads.
> 
> In particular, Russia should make such a proposal to India and China, which have been actively developing their manned space programmes, the experts say.
> 
> Other perspective areas for further research could be modular rockets using methane as fuel and also the creation of an aerospace vehicle, which could be used in the future to construct a fighter or a bomber of the sixth generation.
> 
> Russia May Create Joint Orbital Station with India, China



Meh. It seems the Russians are making a lot of proclamations these days in a bid to seem less isolated than it is. A "joint orbital station" seems like a colossal waste of money that benefits China very little. Especially since China already has its own space station plans like @Genesis has already mentioned. From a financial point of view, I could also see China getting stuck with the bulk of the bill. No thanks.

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## Aepsilons

AgentOrange said:


> Meh. It seems the Russians are making a lot of proclamations these days in a bid to seem less isolated than it is. A "joint orbital station" seems like a colossal waste of money that benefits China very little. Especially since China already has its own space station plans like @Genesis has already mentioned. From a financial point of view, I could also see China getting stuck with the bulk of the bill. No thanks.



LOL. Ever the fiscal conservative, buddy.

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## Genesis

AgentOrange said:


> Meh. It seems the Russians are making a lot of proclamations these days in a bid to seem less isolated than it is. A "joint orbital station" seems like a colossal waste of money that benefits China very little. Especially since China already has its own space station plans like @Genesis has already mentioned. From a financial point of view, I could also see China getting stuck with the bulk of the bill. No thanks.



Maybe you don't know the skills of a Chinese dine and dasher, we can stick you with the bill like it's nobody's business.

"Yea, I'll be back, just going to the washroom."

Next day

"Sorry, got lost and and somehow ended up home instead."

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## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> Maybe you don't know the skills of a Chinese dine and dasher, we can stick you with the bill like it's nobody's business.
> 
> "Yea, I'll be back, just going to the washroom."
> 
> Next day
> 
> "Sorry, got lost and and somehow ended up home instead."



Woah! Woah! Buddy ! You can't just take a sip of someone's milkshake without paying !

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## Genesis

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Woah! Woah! Buddy ! You can't just take a sip of someone's milkshake without paying !


unless that milkshake can bringing all the boys to the yard, I'm not paying for it.

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## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> unless that milkshake can bringing all the boys to the yard, I'm not paying for it.




buahaha only you would say that. seriously.

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## Aepsilons

Genesis said:


> now who says China can't innovate, 7. whatever people in the world, one me.




Any pictures of developments of Chinese space station ?


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## Providence

Ain't gonna happen. There is no convergence with regards to a space station and that too manned. Firstly, China is already on it's way to have their own. And Indians, well they don't even have the tech currently and not too keen on manned space missions it seems for the coming decade.


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## SrNair

Good initiative.We should cooperate with these project.So we can access to an orbital station .

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## Cossack25A1

funny thing about space stations, the current "International Space Station" was originally one of former pres. Reagan's pet project called "Space Station Freedom" but wasn't created during his term.


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## MilSpec

Nihonjin1051 said:


> *Moscow: * Russia is exploring the possibility of a joint manned orbital station with India and China as part of a common strategy to create technological alliances and may take up the matter with the two Asian space giants in July.
> 
> "Moscow could propose to China and India to create a joint manned orbital station at the summit of the BRICS emerging economies in Russia's Ufa in July," a document drafted by the expert council at Russia's military and industrial commission said today.
> 
> The experts recommend "working out the possibilities of an international manned project with BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) countries as part of a common strategy of creating technological alliances", Itar Tass reported.
> 
> "We can start this work now and include the issue in the agenda of the BRICS business council in Ufa," the document reads.
> 
> In particular, Russia should make such a proposal to India and China, which have been actively developing their manned space programmes, the experts say.
> 
> Other perspective areas for further research could be modular rockets using methane as fuel and also the creation of an aerospace vehicle, which could be used in the future to construct a fighter or a bomber of the sixth generation.
> 
> Russia May Create Joint Orbital Station with India, China




Doesn't seem financially feasible for India undertake such project. Much more pressing issues at ISRO.

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## thesolar65

Space station are now of little use, I think. We are not launching space vehicles from space stations into deep space or any other planets. Just some are going there and spending some vacations and doing researches about whom very few know. Better to concentrate of economical launch of vehicles into deep space and exploration.


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## Levina

Sounds good 
But the "mays"and "could bes" in the article mean that its not happening in the near future.
Btw why is Japan not in the list?
I think it makes sense to pull in Japan too .



thesolar65 said:


> . Better to concentrate of *economical lunch of vehicles* into deep space and exploration.


Lunch???
Why not dinner of vehicles??

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## Ind4Ever

sreekumar said:


> Good initiative.We should cooperate with these project.So we can access to an orbital station .


WE will. And look at the trips made by Modi Ji . Now this Brics after Obama trip to India. He will surely go for it . But china won't be so much interest. As it involves India and they have their own programme.



sandy_3126 said:


> Doesn't seem financially feasible for India undertake such project. Much more pressing issues at ISRO.


It will have some funds dispatched from Brics Bank

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## OrionHunter

Genesis said:


> We have that, it's called our own space station 2022.


He's talking about a BRIC's space station, not a Chinese one. Learn to read.



Genesis said:


> "Yea, I'll be back, just going to the washroom."
> 
> Next day
> 
> "Sorry, got lost and and somehow ended up home instead."


What?  You got lost in the washroom and landed up at home instead? Jeeeez! Next time you go to the washroom, carry a GPS.

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## Echo_419

Providence said:


> Ain't gonna happen. There is no convergence with regards to a space station and that too manned. Firstly, China is already on it's way to have their own. And Indians, well they don't even have the tech currently and not too keen on manned space missions it seems for the coming decade.



Agreed a joint orbial station will cost a lot of money & will not be of much benefit


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## cirr

What does India bring to the table？

Money？Technical know-how？Engineering expertise？Curry？

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## trident2010

cirr said:


> What does India bring to the table？
> 
> Money？Technical know-how？Engineering expertise？Curry？



All of the above and something we call innovation !!

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## thesolar65

levina said:


> Sounds good
> But the "mays"and "could bes" in the article mean that its not happening in the near future.
> Btw why is Japan not in the list?
> I think it makes sense to pull in Japan too .
> 
> 
> Lunch???
> Why not dinner of vehicles??



May be I was having breakfast then, Upma and Sambar and thinking about lunch....so I left "a" OK, my bad!! Correcting it!!


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## SrNair

cirr said:


> What does India bring to the table？
> 
> Money？Technical know-how？Engineering expertise？Curry？



No hard earned space tech that enabled us to go to Mars at first shot with a flaw less record.
FYI.Tech is our own.Indigenous .Not a stolen tech .

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## SarthakGanguly

China won't spend a nickel especially because India is involved. India can't spend a nickel...right now.


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## TaiShang

Won't happen. All the best for India on its space efforts. China has its own program and launching such a project with India would be the last thing on the table since it does not make sense. I wonder where these delusional ideas come from.

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## mike2000

Ahahahah... Another delusional news piece by Moscow. Seems western/U.S sanctions are really hurting/butting Putin, more than we even thought.  They can't stop saying bullshit/being delusional these days, its really becoming annoying, even for their 'friend's/allies'.


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## TaiShang

mike2000 said:


> Ahahahah... Another delusional news piece by Moscow. Seems western/U.S sanctions are really hurting/butting Putin, more than we even thought.  They can't stop saying bullshit/being delusional these days, its really becoming annoying, even for their 'friend's/allies'.



Actually the OP draws on an Indian news site. Ascribe that to the Indian's new polished sense of accomplishment now that they just got a guest of honor. Have not seen this news on RT or Sputnik International. Hence, it is premature and unprofessional to blame Putin or the Russian Government for the idiotic news. Take the news with a truckload of salt.

Mr. Putin is doing just fine. Saudi King could not have died at a better time. LOL.

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## AgentOrange

TaiShang said:


> Actually the OP draws on an Indian news site. Ascribe that to the Indian's new polished sense of accomplishment now that they just got a guest of honor. Have not seen this news on RT or Sputnik International. Hence, it is premature and unprofessional to blame Putin or the Russian Government for the idiotic news. Take the news with a truckload of salt.



It would make sense that it's from an Indian news site. That's less surprising (and less embarrassing) than if it came directly from the Bear's mouth.

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## CHN Bamboo

mark..


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## GeHAC

If we can‘t put CZ-5 & CZ-7 series in use before 2020，we may turn to Russia for a joint space mission.But that not gonna be possible.Also,russians' failure to send our satelite to Mars is still painful

New toy! Liquid oxygen/hydrocarbon propellants,environmental friendly.13.5ton LEO(724 configuration),7ton GTO(734 configuration) To replace CZ-2F and CZ-3BE

















CZ-7 entered launching site practice three days ago.This series will be used for Tianzhou cargo ship launching.Domestic space station project going on now.

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## Shotgunner51

GeHAC said:


> If we can‘t put CZ-5 & CZ-7 series in use before 2020，we may turn to Russia for a joint space mission.But that not gonna be possible.Also,russians' failure to send our satelite to Mars is still painful
> 
> New toy! Liquid oxygen/hydrocarbon propellants,environmental friendly.13.5ton LEO(724 configuration),7ton GTO(734 configuration) To replace CZ-2F and CZ-3BE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CZ-7 entered launching site practice three days ago.This series will be used for Tianzhou cargo ship launching.Domestic space station project going on now.



Thanks bro, nice toys to have!

On orbital station, Russia is so far so good in ISS which is "international", after all these years working happily with US, Japan, EU, don't crash the party. Being leftover by the "international community", China has no choice but to go on with her own program, anyway Tiangong rhymes better than I-S-S, more musical. And India partnering with China to build an Asian orbital station? Just the name A-S-S alone is unbearable, no astronaut is willing to stay in there for more than one sec. Finally the BRICS orbital station concept sounds very futuristic, imagine 5 languages on a control button? I bet that Goldman guy never would have imagined his sales pitch abbreviation evolves into a space ship, but I guess it's not a bad concept for bollywood to use in making "Gravity 2".


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## somsak

Don't say no.
This is not a bad thing from Russia.
Saying No will destroy friendship.
If this deal is all Russia paid, with additional research funding for China and India,why not?
You are hired to gain technology, why not?
Who invite to the dining, who pay, then thats the best deal. By working together does not mean you need to leak your technology. Just send junior researcher if afraid technology leak.
Can refute only if cost burden too high.

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## Beast

thesolar65 said:


> Space station are now of little use, I think. We are not launching space vehicles from space stations into deep space or any other planets. Just some are going there and spending some vacations and doing researches about whom very few know. Better to concentrate of economical launch of vehicles into deep space and exploration.


Scientific research on the International Space Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Echo_419

cirr said:


> What does India bring to the table？
> 
> Money？Technical know-how？Engineering expertise？Curry？



All the above



TaiShang said:


> Actually the OP draws on an Indian news site. Ascribe that to the Indian's new polished sense of accomplishment now that they just got a guest of honor. Have not seen this news on RT or Sputnik International. Hence, it is premature and unprofessional to blame Putin or the Russian Government for the idiotic news. Take the news with a truckload of salt.
> 
> Mr. Putin is doing just fine. Saudi King could not have died at a better time. LOL.



Moscow could propose to China and India to create a joint manned orbital station at the summit of the BRICS emerging economies in Russia's Ufa in July," a document drafted by the expert council at Russia's military and industrial commission said today.

Apparently 'Russia's military and industrial commission' is responsible for this & Our news channel was just reporting this,so spare the bashing please



AgentOrange said:


> It would make sense that it's from an Indian news site. That's less surprising (and less embarrassing) than if it came directly from the Bear's mouth.



Apparently 'Russia's military and industrial commission' is to blame,we are just reporting the news


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## AgentOrange

Echo_419 said:


> All the above
> 
> 
> 
> Moscow could propose to China and India to create a joint manned orbital station at the summit of the BRICS emerging economies in Russia's Ufa in July," a document drafted by the expert council at Russia's military and industrial commission said today.
> 
> Apparently 'Russia's military and industrial commission' is responsible for this & Our news channel was just reporting this,so spare the bashing please
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently 'Russia's military and industrial commission' is to blame,we are just reporting the news



That's just sad, if true. It shows Russia is getting desperate - announcing grand sounding projects no one has any intention of participating in.

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## Echo_419

AgentOrange said:


> That's just sad, if true. It shows Russia is getting desperate - announcing grand sounding projects no one has any intention of participating in.



Let's hope Russia gets over these bad times

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## TaiShang

*US military and NATO officials expressed their concern over the rise in Russia’s military technologies.*







© FLICKR/ ANTONIO C.

WASHINGTON, January 29 (Sputnik) — The United States and NATO are observing rapid improvements in Russia’s military technologies with increased concern, particularly as US technological advantages over potential adversaries decrease, US military and NATO officials said at a Center for a New American Security conference.

“Our [the US] military’s long comfortable technological edge…is steadily eroding,” US Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Work stated on Wednesday. “We still believe we have a margin, but the margin is steadily eroding and it’s making us nervous.”

Areas of concern for the United States include the advances made by Russia and China in modernizing nuclear weapons, anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, long-range strike missiles, as well as counterspace, cyber, electronic warfare, and special operations capabilities, Work said.







© PHOTO: UNITED INSTRUMENT MANUFACTURING CORPORATION

“What gives us all pause is that the military of our potential competitors around the world has been rising since 2001,” the Pentagon official commented, noting that during the same period, military spending by US allies has generally declined.

The past decade’s reversal and growth in Russia’s military spending and force modernization poses a “challenge” to the United States, according to Work, with a “transoceanic and global” force projection.

NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander of Transformation, General Jean-Paul Paloméros stated on Wednesday that the transatlantic alliance is “closely monitoring” Russia’s fielding and development of advanced weapons systems.

General Paloméros referred obliquely to “game-changers” in Russia’s defense arsenal. Such systems, he said, “could deny our access to some strategic part of the alliance, or our ability to deploy our forces where and when it is needed.”

Given the narrowing edge of technological advantage over potential adversaries, NATO is focused on continually assessing how to transform itself “to keep the edge…on those very strategic domains,” the General stated.

Since 2012, Russia has been involved in a substantial military modernization program aimed at improving aging weapons systems and investing in new technologies through 2020, according to Russian official reports.

*Over the past four years, Russia’s military expenditures have outpaced those of the United States as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), according to World Bank data which showed US expenditures at 3.8 percent of GDP and Russia at 4.2 percent. The rest of the world averages military expenditures at slightly over 2 percent of GDP.*

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## jhungary

TaiShang said:


> *US military and NATO officials expressed their concern over the rise in Russia’s military technologies.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © FLICKR/ ANTONIO C.
> 
> WASHINGTON, January 29 (Sputnik) — The United States and NATO are observing rapid improvements in Russia’s military technologies with increased concern, particularly as US technological advantages over potential adversaries decrease, US military and NATO officials said at a Center for a New American Security conference.
> 
> “Our [the US] military’s long comfortable technological edge…is steadily eroding,” US Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Work stated on Wednesday. “We still believe we have a margin, but the margin is steadily eroding and it’s making us nervous.”
> 
> Areas of concern for the United States include the advances made by Russia and China in modernizing nuclear weapons, anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, long-range strike missiles, as well as counterspace, cyber, electronic warfare, and special operations capabilities, Work said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © PHOTO: UNITED INSTRUMENT MANUFACTURING CORPORATION
> 
> “What gives us all pause is that the military of our potential competitors around the world has been rising since 2001,” the Pentagon official commented, noting that during the same period, military spending by US allies has generally declined.
> 
> The past decade’s reversal and growth in Russia’s military spending and force modernization poses a “challenge” to the United States, according to Work, with a “transoceanic and global” force projection.
> 
> NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander of Transformation, General Jean-Paul Paloméros stated on Wednesday that the transatlantic alliance is “closely monitoring” Russia’s fielding and development of advanced weapons systems.
> 
> General Paloméros referred obliquely to “game-changers” in Russia’s defense arsenal. Such systems, he said, “could deny our access to some strategic part of the alliance, or our ability to deploy our forces where and when it is needed.”
> 
> Given the narrowing edge of technological advantage over potential adversaries, NATO is focused on continually assessing how to transform itself “to keep the edge…on those very strategic domains,” the General stated.
> 
> Since 2012, Russia has been involved in a substantial military modernization program aimed at improving aging weapons systems and investing in new technologies through 2020, according to Russian official reports.
> 
> *Over the past four years, Russia’s military expenditures have outpaced those of the United States as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), according to World Bank data which showed US expenditures at 3.8 percent of GDP and Russia at 4.2 percent. The rest of the world averages military expenditures at slightly over 2 percent of GDP.*


I love the way the article look at % of GDP instead of the actual money spend.....

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## boomslang

European NATO members aren't spending the required 2% of GDP on their defence. As always they figure that the U.S. will pick up their 'slack'.

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## jhungary

boomslang said:


> European NATO members aren't spending the required 2% of GDP on their defence. As always they figure that the U.S. will pick up their 'slack'.



lol this is the draw back of being the best military in the world , people start depend on you, as an Australian, i would not want Australia to spend more then now and start putting money in the piggy bank, but as an American, I want China tospend more to catch the gap, only then will the EU wake upand stop depending on American for their defence, its like they are milking US where on one hand they close their base and cut the troop and on the other they ask for more US present in the region.

The Chinese in me swing either way tho

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## somsak

Perhaps US has submersible air craft carrier by now. Im not expert


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## TaiShang

*China Supplies Air Defense Systems, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle to Uzbekistan*
14:47 02.02.2015(updated 14:49 02.02.2015)






*China has supplied its new generation medium- to long-range HQ-9 air defense systems and its percussion unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) Pterodactyl (Yilong-1) to Uzbekistan; similar deliveries have been made to Turkmenistan.*

MOSCOW, February 2 (Sputnik) – China has supplied its new generation medium- to long-range HQ-9 air defense systems to Uzbekistan, according to the country’s news website 12news.


Tashkent has also received at least one percussion UAV, the Pterodactyl (Yilong-1), which was developed by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.

Similar deliveries have been made to Turkmenistan, the website quotes Chinese newspaper "Huantsyu Shibao" as saying.

The contracts for the provision of defense equipment to these Central Asian countries were signed back in 2013.

The purpose of delivering weaponry to the countries is to reduce the price China has to pay them for natural gas, according to WantChinaTimes, a news website operated by The China Times group.

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## Martian2

*Did Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan buy Chinese HQ-9 to circumvent Russian IFF?*

During the Russian-Chechen war, the Chechens were shocked to discover that captured AAA guns would not fire on Russian fighters. The Russian fighters were broadcasting IFF (ie. Identification Friend or Foe). Russian AAA guns cannot be fired against a Russian fighter with an activated IFF beacon.

Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan have watched the Russian encroachment into former Soviet Republics (e.g. Georgia, Crimea, and Ukraine). Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan would not buy Russian S-300s, which are useless against a Russian fighter with IFF.

Thus, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan probably purchased Chinese HQ-9s to safeguard their airspace.

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## Götterdämmerung

boomslang said:


> European NATO members aren't spending the required 2% of GDP on their defence. As always they figure that the U.S. will pick up their 'slack'.



Has the US become so poor that we have to pay for your adventures?

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## boomslang

Götterdämmerung said:


> Has the US become so poor that we have to pay for your adventures?



You can't take care of your own money. The E.U. is near collapse. You'll be going down on Vladi like a two dollar whore when he rattles the gas pipes a little.


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## Götterdämmerung

boomslang said:


> You can't take care of your own money. The E.U. is near collapse. You'll be going down on Vladi like a two dollar whore when he rattles the gas pipes a little.



Russia can give us all we need (all kinds of resources) and we can give her all she needs (high class consumer products), while the US is using our so called elite as some cheap whores. Without the military, your dollars would be worth less than used toilet papers.

BTW, you are a mere slave of your own oligarchy.

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## boomslang

Götterdämmerung said:


> Russia can give us all we need (all kinds of resources) and we can give her all she needs (high class consumer products), while the US is using our so called elite as some cheap whores. Without the military, your dollars would be worth less than used toilet papers.
> 
> BTW, you are a mere slave of your own oligarchy.




When you have to cozy up to Russia, you're ALREADY fucked. How does it feel to be SO militarily weak and resource poor that you need to kneel for your 'sugar daddy' Vladi ? Europe is like the smallest guy in prison. OUCH !!! And you talk of 'oligarchy' while at the same time you spread your cheeks for Vladi ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!


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## Hindustani78

boomslang said:


> European NATO members aren't spending the required 2% of GDP on their defence. As always they figure that the U.S. will pick up their 'slack'.



United States did asked NATO allies to increase thier defense expenditures. 

5 Days back this statement was issued by NATO's Secretary General

At Wales, NATO Heads of State and Government pledged to stop the cuts in defence spending, to aim to spend 2% of Gross Domestic Product on defence within a decade, and to spend that money more efficiently.


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## Gazi

> Russia can give us all we need (all kinds of resources) and we can give her all she needs (high class consumer products), while the US is using our so called elite as some cheap whores. Without the military, your dollars would be worth less than used toilet papers.



German favoring Russian over American

I thought Russian and Germans doesnt meet eye to eye due to their Past encounters and their consequences. Remember east and West Germany....As for Russian they are Opportunistic lot just like their Soviet predecessor they dont care who is Allay and who is not when they find benefit for themselves while USA on the other hand are better to reason with and to have meaningful negotiation on any issue....


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## SouI

boomslang said:


> You can't take care of your own money. The E.U. is near collapse. You'll be going down on Vladi like a two dollar whore when he rattles the gas pipes a little.


Germany current account surplus hits record €190 billion in 2014 | Customs Today

U.S. Deficit Cut by Almost One-Third to $492 Billion: CBO - Bloomberg Business


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## Götterdämmerung

boomslang said:


> When you have to cozy up to Russia, you're ALREADY fucked. How does it feel to be SO militarily weak and resource poor that you need to kneel for your 'sugar daddy' Vladi ? Europe is like the smallest guy in prison. OUCH !!! And you talk of 'oligarchy' while at the same time you spread your cheeks for Vladi ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!



The alternative is cozying up to the US or what?  How about we want a good neigbourhood withou you uncouth ex-emigrants meddling in our backyard?

Unitl now, I have not experienced any threats or other malices coming from Russia but plenty of those from the US, starting with installing Nazis in our neighbourhood to spying all of us.



Gazi said:


> German favoring Russian over American
> 
> I thought Russian and Germans doesnt meet eye to eye due to their Past encounters and their consequences. Remember east and West Germany....As for Russian they are Opportunistic lot just like their Soviet predecessor they dont care who is Allay and who is not when they find benefit for themselves while USA on the other hand are better to reason with and to have meaningful negotiation on any issue....



How about you inform yourself on the internet (not the mainstream)? The relationship between Russia and Germany stretches centuries, even our royal families were tighly connected.

Guess with which word Prussia is related to!

Gosh, when ignorants open their mouths.

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## SouI

TaiShang said:


> *China Supplies Air Defense Systems, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle to Uzbekistan*
> 14:47 02.02.2015(updated 14:49 02.02.2015)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *China has supplied its new generation medium- to long-range HQ-9 air defense systems and its percussion unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) Pterodactyl (Yilong-1) to Uzbekistan; similar deliveries have been made to Turkmenistan.*
> 
> MOSCOW, February 2 (Sputnik) – China has supplied its new generation medium- to long-range HQ-9 air defense systems to Uzbekistan, according to the country’s news website 12news.
> 
> 
> Tashkent has also received at least one percussion UAV, the Pterodactyl (Yilong-1), which was developed by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.
> 
> Similar deliveries have been made to Turkmenistan, the website quotes Chinese newspaper "Huantsyu Shibao" as saying.
> 
> The contracts for the provision of defense equipment to these Central Asian countries were signed back in 2013.
> 
> The purpose of delivering weaponry to the countries is to reduce the price China has to pay them for natural gas, according to WantChinaTimes, a news website operated by The China Times group.


I love your military products, they are so qualified.


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## boomslang

Götterdämmerung said:


> The alternative is cozying up to the US or what?  How about we want a good neigbourhood withou you uncouth ex-emigrants meddling in our backyard?
> 
> Unitl now, I have not experienced any threats or other malices coming from Russia but plenty of those from the US, starting with installing Nazis in our neighbourhood to spying all of us....




Well, you have to sell your sorry @ss to someone. You'll ALWAYS be someones bitch. Open wide...... And wait till you piss Vladi off a bit and he turns down the heat next winter. BRRRRR !!


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## Götterdämmerung

boomslang said:


> Well, you have to sell your sorry @ss to someone. You'll ALWAYS be someones bitch. Open wide...... And wait till you piss Vladi off a bit and he turns down the heat next winter. BRRRRR !!



Russia never turned off the gas we bought from them, not even during the height of the Cold War. They have always been faithful to their contracts … unlike the US that has repeatedly breached international laws.

OTH, your post reveals more the way how you see your country and the world functions. Poor boy!

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## kbd-raaf

jhungary said:


> lol this is the draw back of being the best military in the world , people start depend on you, as an Australian, i would not want Australia to spend more then now and start putting money in the piggy bank, but as an American, I want China tospend more to catch the gap, only then will the EU wake upand stop depending on American for their defence, its like they are milking US where on one hand they close their base and cut the troop and on the other they ask for more US present in the region.
> 
> The Chinese in me swing either way tho



You must have a very interesting biography.


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## boomslang

Götterdämmerung said:


> Russia never turned off the gas we bought from them,....




Great. Knit a heavy sweater and keep repeating that while Vladi reams you a new @ss.


But in the mean time, lets stroll down Memory Lane.....

Russia Cuts Gas Supply To Europe - CBS News


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## Beidou2020

*UnionPay eyes Russia market*

*


*_A woman walks past a UnionPay International advertisement in Seoul, South Korea. The Chinese bank card service company plans to expand its business in Russia. [Photo/Xinhua]_


*Third-largest card issuer continues its expansion of overseas network*

*Russia's move to reduce its reliance on major Western payment services may benefit China's market players, including China UnionPay and its subsidiary UnionPay International.*

According to a report broadcast on the Voice of Russia, UnionPay has its eyes on a bigger market share in Russia. The broadcaster quoted an employee who is in charge of UnionPay's card business in that country.

UnionPay International, the UnionPay subsidiary that focuses on overseas business, declined on Wednesday to comment on the report.

In July, UnionPay International reached an agreement with Russia's Vostochny Express Bank, which will issue high-end card products, the UnionPay International official website said.

UnionPay services in Russia started in 2006, four years after the company was established. The card organization has cooperation agreements with more than 10 banks and financial institutions in Russia, according to UnionPay data.

Russia has tens of thousands of point-of-sale terminals and automatic teller machines that can accept UnionPay cards, according to UnionPay data.

*Analysts said it is a commercial choice that more people are using UnionPay cards outside China, because the company has developed overseas networks and expanded its facilities to serve cardholders and enable smooth transactions.*

*Market observers said that it is not surprising that UnionPay cards are more widely used than ever, given the company's expanding global network.*

"Like many other financial services, payment services need to be fast, safe and easily accessible. It is not surprising that UnionPay cards are getting increasingly popular outside China, considering the expansion of its networks," said Yang Minji, a Shanghai-based consumer choice analyst with Fulun Consultancy.

Peng Yuan, a 24-year-old engineering student at a university in Moscow, said using UnionPay cards is convenient, and there are often discounts and other benefits for cardholders at airports and duty-free shops.

*The official website of UnionPay International said its network has expanded to cover more than 140 countries, and UnionPay cards have been issued in more than 30 countries.*

*According to the California-based The Nilson Report, UnionPay had the world's third-largest market share of credit and debit transactions (7.7 percent) in 2013, after Visa Inc (60.5 percent) and MasterCard Inc (26.9) percent.*

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## TaiShang

*China plans airport in border city near Russia*
CRI, February 13, 2015

Chinese authorities have announced plans to build a new airport in the city of Suifenhe, which is on the Russian border in Heilongjiang.

*The project is worth around 150-million U.S. dollars. It's expected the new airport will be able to handle 450-thousand passengers a year by 2025.*

At the same time, Chinese authorities are also planning to expand the Shuifenhe border crossing area.

Suifeihe is in the southeast of Heilongjiang, near the border with both Russia and North Korea.

About 80 percent of cargo imports and exports into Heilongjiang go through Suifeihe.

The city is best known as the crossing point where the former China Eastern Railway would go through into Russia.

It's currently the only city in China where cross-border trade can be done using the Russian ruble.

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## Pangu

Man, this city is so far out there! Great to see an airport being build, that is one place you may not want to use the railway because it's the snail train.

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## TaiShang

*China plans tourism zone with Russia, DPRK*
February 13, 2015

China is planning an international tourism zone in its northeastern border area with Russia and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK).

The Tumen River Delta international tourism area will include part of China's Hunchun City, as well as a 10 sq km plot each from Russia and DPRK, said the government of China's Jilin Province. The three sides will jointly build tourism facilities.

At the ongoing annual session of the provincial legislature, Jiang Chaoliang, governor of Jilin, said the province would draw up a blueprint for the tourism area this year and explore a management model that would involve the three countries.

The initiative was put forward by the Hunchun City government in 2013 and has drawn interest from authorities of the border areas of Russia and DPRK.

Visitors shall enter the tourism zone without visa and shopping shall be duty-free, according to officials.

In the long run, the Republic of Korea, Japan and Mongolia will join the tourism area via highways, railways and air routes, said Zhao Xiaojun, director of Jilin Provincial Tourism Administration.

The United Nations Development Program (UNDP) launched the Greater Tumen Initiative (GTI) in 1995, which provides a multilateral forum for its member countries to tap potential economic opportunities.

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## StarCraft_ZT

As the tumult continued into 2015, discerning emerging-markets investors saw opportunity, _Bloomberg Markets_ magazine will report in its March issue. *They're bullish on China, South Korea and, despite a 50-plus percent drop in the oil price in 2014, the Gulf nations.*

South Korea tops Bloomberg Markets' fourth annual ranking of the most-promising emerging nations in which to invest in 2015, with Qatar No. 2, China No. 3 and the United Arab Emirates No. 4. Saudi Arabia heads the list of the most-promising frontier markets.

*"Both Korea and China look attractive at this stage," says Mark Mobius, who oversees $40 billion as executive chairman of Templeton Emerging Markets Group.*

*Noting that China and South Korea are oil importers, Mobius says, "Both markets will benefit from low oil prices and relatively high economic growth."*

*More than half of the market capitalization of South Korea's Kospi Index of stocks consists of exporters*, says Hartmut Issel, head of Asia-Pacific investment at UBS Wealth Management. Samsung Electronics Co. alone accounts for 17 percent of the market.

"*The fate of Korean stocks is thus largely determined by how big customers such as the U.S. are doing*," Issel says.

*Optimism about Korea is tempered by its competitive weakness against rival Japan.*

"A major issue for the Korean market is the relative value of the won versus the yen," says Jim O'Neill, retired head of Goldman Sachs Asset Management.

The yen fell 11 percent against the won in the 12 months through Feb. 2. A weak currency makes exported goods cheaper.

The South Korean economy grew at an anemic 0.4 percent pace in the three months through December from the previous quarter, according to the Bank of Korea.

*China's markets were unaffected by the emerging-markets crisis, with the Shanghai Composite Index rising 58 percent in 2014, including reinvested dividends, after slumping 3.9 percent in 2013.*

"*I don't understand why people are so negative about China*," says O'Neill, who coined the term BRICs in 2001 to highlight the rising economic power of Brazil, Russia, India and China. "I assumed China would grow by 7.5 percent a year this decade," he says. "So far, it will have averaged 7.9 from 2011 to 2014."

The Bloomberg Markets emerging and frontier markets rankings are based on 19 measures of the investing climate, from forecasts of gross domestic product growth for the next two years to the ease of doing business.

MSCI Inc., a New York–based publisher of equity indexes, *designates countries as emerging or frontier based on a variety of criteria, including trading volumes, restrictions on foreign investors, corporate governance, and currency and political stability.
*
In 2014, MSCI moved Qatar and the U.A.E. from the frontier to the emerging index, which helped them pull in $3.5 billion from global emerging-markets funds, according to EFG-Hermes Holding SAE.

*South Korea, widely considered a developed market, remains on MSCI's emerging list because of limits on the convertibility of the local currency and restrictions on access to its markets.*

Saudi Arabia is classified as frontier because it limits direct investment in its markets to the six members of the Gulf Cooperation Council, or GCC. Others can invest only via swaps or ETFs.

In July, Riyadh announced it would remove those restrictions. It may do so in April, according to two people familiar with the matter. That will set the conditions for it to be designated an emerging market as early as 2017, Sebastien Lieblich, head of MSCI Index Research, told Bloomberg in July.

The Saudi stock market had a market cap of $537.36 billion as of Feb. 2, making it the biggest market in the Middle East by far. The Tadawul All Share Index rose 3.1 percent in the 12 months through Feb. 11. Among its listed stocks are Saudi Basic Industries Corp., one of the world's largest petrochemical producers; Al Rajhi Bank, the biggest Islamic lender; and Kingdom Holding Co., the investing vehicle of billionaire Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Al Saud.

The oil price plunge is certain to carve a hole in the budgets of the Gulf oil and gas exporters. The government of Saudi Arabia is already projecting a budget deficit of $39 billion for 2015. Yet the government of the late King Abdullah refused to countenance a reduction of oil production to drive up prices in meetings of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.

The king died at the age of 90 in January and was succeeded by the crown prince, Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud. Analysts didn't expect the kingdom's oil policy to change under Salman, 79.

Money managers point out that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations can easily fund their ambitious domestic development projects by drawing on the dollar reserves they built up while petroleum prices were high.

"GCC governments have accumulated massive surpluses in the past decade thanks to elevated energy prices," says Dubai-based Rami Sidani, the head of frontier markets investing at Britain's Schroder Investment Management.

The reserve amounts are $726.5 billion for the Saudis, $74.7 billion for the U.A.E. and $42.2 billion for Qatar, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

"The main growth driver in this part of the world is government spending," Sidani says, "and we expect these governments to proceed with that in order to diversify their economies."

That makes consumer companies, real estate and the banks that fund them a good bet, says Hootan Yazhari, managing director for global frontier markets at Bank of America Merrill Lynch. He recommends Dubai-based Emaar Properties PJSC and Abu Dhabi–based Aldar Properties PJSC, First Gulf Bank PJSC and Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank PJSC.

In Saudi Arabia, clothing retailer Fawaz Abdulaziz Alhokair & Co. and bookstore chain Jarir Marketing Co. are among Merrill Lynch's top picks.

Elsewhere in the developing world, the crisis has opened a rift among the BRICs.

"These four countries could hardly be more heterogeneous at this point," says UBS's Issel. He sees continuing turmoil in Brazil, No. 16 in the ranking, and Russia, No. 22, in 2015.

"In Russia, recession is inevitable," he says.

At the same time, investors glow with enthusiasm for the other two BRIC nations.

*"We are most excited about the new governments in China and India, who have put reforms in place that will benefit the economy and financial markets in 2015," says Pearlyn Wong, a Singapore-based investment analyst for Switzerland's Bank Julius Baer & Co.*

Narendra Modi took over as India's prime minister with a reformist economic agenda on May 26. Since then, the benchmark S&P BSE Sensex stock index was up 16 percent as of Feb. 11.

*China's equity market should get a boost in 2015 from the stock-connect program that allows foreign investors to buy mainland shares through the Hong Kong market, says Adam Tejpaul, head of Asian investments at J.P. Morgan Private Bank. China will also benefit from lower energy prices and a dovish monetary policy by the People's Bank of China, which will provide liquidity to the country's markets, Tejpaul says.*

"Company fundamentals in the mainland are increasingly positive," says Andrew Gillan, head of Asia (ex-Japan) equities at Henderson Global Investors. "Favored holdings include Baidu, which dominates the Internet search market."

Henderson also likes Brilliance China Automotive Holdings Ltd., a joint venture partner with Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, and Dongfeng Motor Group Co., which has partnerships with Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co.

*China is the world's biggest auto market.*

Long-term investors shouldn't be deterred by the current turmoil, Mobius says.

"Three key themes remain in place," he says. "Emerging markets' economic growth rates in general continue to be markedly faster than those of developed markets, emerging markets have much greater foreign reserves than developed markets, and the sovereign-debt-to-GDP ratios of emerging-market countries generally remain much lower than those of developed markets."

Even with major nations like Russia and Brazil hobbled by low commodities prices, scandal and sanctions, Mobius concludes, growth rates -- and share prices -- in developing markets will outpace those in the U.S., Europe and Japan in 2015.

Gulf Nations Defy Oil Rout to Top List of Best Emerging Markets - Bloomberg Business

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## TaiShang

*China Announces New 'Silk Road' Through Russia, India / Sputnik International

China's Foreign Minister announced that China is ready to cooperate with Russia and India to create an economic corridor that benefits all parties.*






Russian-Chinese Relations Reach ‘Unprecedented High’ Level
MOSCOW, February 12 (Sputnik) — China is ready to develop economic cooperation with Russia and India as part of the "One Belt and One Road" strategy, the building of a new Silk Road, China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi announced on Monday.


"We call for mutual benefits over a zero-sum game, over confrontation. China created the 'One Belt and One Road' initiative. We want to continue the tradition of the Silk Road and give it with a new meaning in a new century," he told journalists after the trilateral Russia-China-India Foreign Minister talks.

According to Yi, China is ready to cooperate with all countries located along the economic corridors that connect China with Europe.







China Passes US to Become World's Top Foreign Investment Destination
"This is not a Chinese solo, this is a symphony for all our partners," Yi noted, stating that China will cooperate with all interested parties, above all Russia and India to achieve mutual benefits in the 21st century.


In 2013 the Chinese government ratified the "One Belt and One Road" strategy, an economic belt that passes through the countries of the Silk Road which once connected China with Europe through East and Central Asia.



Read more: China Announces New 'Silk Road' Through Russia, India / Sputnik International

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## cirr

*CHINA AND RUSSIA JOIN FORCES TO BUILD NEW JUMBO JET*

A CHALLENGER APPEARS

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted 13 hours ago





*C929* _United Aircraft Corporation_ This is the first official concept art of the new Sino-Russian jumbo jet, which can seat up to 280 passengers (stretched versions can probably carry 350 passengers).

China and Russia are taking their high tech relationship to the next level, as the preliminary design for their jumbo jet will be completed by July. The C929 will be China's ever largest civilian aircraft, and Russia's largest post-Cold War jetliner.





*C919 Assembly* _hangkongwuyu via Weibo_ In January 2015, the C919 prototype has its wings attached to the fuselage. The C919 is China's largest civilian aircraft, with its first flight planned in 2016. COMAC hopes that experience from developing the C919 will help in developing the larger "C929" with Russia.

The United Aircraft Corporation (UAV) and China's COMAC civilian aviation firm have been collaborating since early 2014 to build a wide body jetliner capable of seating 250 to 280 passengers in a 3-class configuration, with a range of 12,000km. While this aircraft has not yet been named, its Chinese designation is likely to be C929 (COMAC's 190 passenger C919 is currently China's largest civil aircraft project).





*Irkut MC-21* _United Aircraft Corporation_ The MS-21, like the Airbus 320, Boeing 737 and Comac C919, is a medium sized narrow-body jetliner capable of carrying up to 190 passengers. The MS-21 is expected to enter service around 2017 or 2018.

Russia has high hopes for the C929, as evidenced by the string of Russian defense and industry ministers praising the jet to the press. UAC President Yuri Slyusar said that the C929 will cost $13 billion to develop, with a first flight between 2021 and 2022. Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov says that Chinese and Russian engineers will develop the prototype blueprints between 2016 and 2018, with a service entry date of 2025. Slyusar notes that UAC will build the composite wing and tail of the C929, while China will handle fuselage construction. To reduce costs and improve reliability, the initial C929 is likely to use Western engines from Pratt & Whitney, General Electric or Rolls Royce, though Russia's United Engine Corporation hopes to power some C929 by 2030. Chinese technologies would likely include the use of advanced manufacturing techniques like 3D printing, not to mention funding.





*Chartered Air Force One* _China Daily_ Currently, Chinese presidents charter Air China (China's flag carrier) Boeing 747s to take them aboard, such as this visit by then President Hu Jintao to Mexico in 2005. In the future, the C929 is likely to be the first aircraft to serve as a permanent airliner for China's future leaders.

The C929's basic 290 passenger capacity suggests that it would have a maximum takeoff weight of about 250 tons, about the same size as the Boeing 787 or Airbus 350. On the civilian side, initial C929s may not be technologically advanced as their Western counterparts, but they would provide a lower cost alternative for airlines around the world. Likewise, a militarized C929 would be a welcome addition to China's military aviation. A C929 in PLAAF service could serve as a refueling tanker (the similarly sized A330 MRTT is already in Australian, British, Saudi and Singaporean service) for Chinese bombers and stealth fighters. The C929 would also be more fuel efficient than Y-20 and Il-76 cargo planes, making it a longer ranged aerial command center for Chinese air operations, as well as serving as an "Air Force One" for Chinese leaders, in addition to being an airborne nuclear command post.

China And Russia Join Forces To Build New Jumbo Jet | Popular Science

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## BoQ77

Wonder the role of Russian in the new jumbo jet.
Doesn't Russia have 3D printing technology and reliable engines for that?


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## TaiShang

*Russo-Chinese Widebody Concept Design Underway*
Full-scale development of a Russo-Chinese widebody may begin next year

Feb 11, 2015 Aviation Week & Space Technology

Russia’s United Aircraft Corp. (UAC) and China’s Comac have begun preliminary design of their proposed joint 250-280-seat widebody airliner, which Moscow now expects to enter service in 2025. This phase should be completed by July, says UAC President Yury Slyusar, while Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov suggests that full-scale development will begin next year.

“We have the money for this,” Manturov says, referring to the preliminary design. As for the next design stage, more funding will be needed, and this would fall in the 2016-18 budget cycle, according to an Interfax-AVN news agency report on the press conference.

By “next design stage,” Manturov appears to be referring to detail design. That implies that a nine-year program for full-scale development will be launched in 2016. Entry into service in 2025 would be at the end of the target period previously set as 2023-25. China and Russia each allowed eight years for development of their narrowbody airliners, theC919 and MS-21, respectively, and each now expects that it will take 10 years to bring those aircraft to fruition.

Last November Slyusar, who was then Russia’s deputy industry and trade minister, said that the aircraft would make its first flight in 2021-22. Development cost is now estimated at $13 billion before the ruble’s recent fall in value, he says. That compares with a figure of $7-8 billion he mentioned in November. The cheaper ruble should reduce the U.S.-dollar cost of the program, however; the two sides are probably budgeting in dollars because that is the currency customers and suppliers will use. 





The structure of the proposed Russo-Chinese widebody is likely to have a large composite content. Credit: United Aircraft Corp.


UAC and Comac, both state-owned, signed a memorandum on cooperation for the program in May 2014. A joint feasibility study was completed in autumn 2014 with positive results, says a UAC official.

Russian industry is keen to work with the Chinese since Beijing can afford to help fund the program. The joint widebody program has been met with great support from the Russian government, but a wholly Russian effort may struggle for funding. Comac is far less keen about the endeavor, say industry officials in China, because the Chinese industry would likely receive government backing for independent development of a widebody. One has been planned for several years under the name C929.

UAC is likely to develop and build the composite wing and fin for the widebody while Comac handles the fuselage, says Slyusar. Although that blueprint assigns the most difficult part of the airframe to Russia, the UAC president points out that not all of the technology is coming from his side. “China is now not only a market and investor but is also providing some expertise in technologies needed for our joint project,” he says.

Still, UAC has more experience in major composite structures than the Chinese industry has, although Avic, Comac’s airframe supplier, owns Austrian composites specialist FACC. UAC subsidiary Aerocomposit has developed the carbon-fiber wing for the MS-21 in cooperation with FACC and Diamond Aircraft, another Austrian company. That wing completed fatigue testing at the government aeronautical engineering institute TsAGI near Moscow last spring. Comac considered developing a composite wing for the C919, but ultimately decided against it.

The MS-21 wing has since been sent to TsAGI for static testing. Program managers for the widebody are looking at their options in acquiring tooling that needs to be ordered early, says an industry official in the U.S. Their requirements are consistent with the large-scale use of composites that Slyusar describes.

The UAC president hopes that most of the work on the aircraft will be done in Russia. That point should be settled soon, since detailed work distribution will be defined during the current, preliminary design phase. UAC estimates that the world will need 8,000 widebody airlines through 2033, with 1,000 bought by Chinese airlines.

Comac’s studies have pointed to a gap in the market for a widebody with the moderate range of 7,400 km (4,000 nm), but in November Mikhail Pogosyan, who was then president of UAC, said the joint airliner would have a range of up to 12,000 km and seat 250-300 passengers. Slyusar has refined that to 250-280 seats in the basic version, which could later be lengthened or shortened. 

The intended engine for the type has not been mentioned, but a competitive widebody would almost certainly need a Western powerplant in its initial versions. Similarly, Western onboard systems would normally be expected.

Tensions between Russia and the West over the past year must increase the desire of Moscow, if not Beijing, to equip the aircraft as far as possible with systems from Russian and Chinese factories. The Chinese are probably far from building an industry capable of producing robust, efficient aircraft systems able to meet globally recognized certification standards, but Russian industry could develop some equipment. 

Russia’s United Engine Corp. (UEC) says it discussed possible joint development of a high-thrust engine for the new widebody with Avic during Airshow China at Zhuhai last November. The parties have had “serious negotiations,” a UEC representative tells Aviation Week. The parameters of the joint engine should be defined in the first quarter of this year. It would be a Phase 2 powerplant for the aircraft, which would probably go into service with a Western engine.

Avic Commercial Aircraft Engines has been working on the preliminary design of a turbofan for the widebody, with the aim of entry into service between 2025 and 2030. 

The Chinese have had far less experience in developing transport aircraft than the Russians, but they trail only slightly in producing aircraft with globally recognized airworthiness certification. UAC’s Sukhoi Superjet 100 regional jet is the first such Russian aircraft; it entered service in 2011 and has certification endorsed by the European Aviation Safety Agency. Comac’s ARJ21, a similarly sized aircraft, was declared airworthy in December after a certification program monitored by the FAA. 

_With Guy Norris in Los Angeles._

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## war is peace

cirr said:


> *CHINA AND RUSSIA JOIN FORCES TO BUILD NEW JUMBO JET*
> 
> A CHALLENGER APPEARS
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted 13 hours ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *C929* _United Aircraft Corporation_ This is the first official concept art of the new Sino-Russian jumbo jet, which can seat up to 280 passengers (stretched versions can probably carry 350 passengers).
> 
> China and Russia are taking their high tech relationship to the next level, as the preliminary design for their jumbo jet will be completed by July. The C929 will be China's ever largest civilian aircraft, and Russia's largest post-Cold War jetliner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *C919 Assembly* _hangkongwuyu via Weibo_ In January 2015, the C919 prototype has its wings attached to the fuselage. The C919 is China's largest civilian aircraft, with its first flight planned in 2016. COMAC hopes that experience from developing the C919 will help in developing the larger "C929" with Russia.
> 
> The United Aircraft Corporation (UAV) and China's COMAC civilian aviation firm have been collaborating since early 2014 to build a wide body jetliner capable of seating 250 to 280 passengers in a 3-class configuration, with a range of 12,000km. While this aircraft has not yet been named, its Chinese designation is likely to be C929 (COMAC's 190 passenger C919 is currently China's largest civil aircraft project).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Irkut MC-21* _United Aircraft Corporation_ The MS-21, like the Airbus 320, Boeing 737 and Comac C919, is a medium sized narrow-body jetliner capable of carrying up to 190 passengers. The MS-21 is expected to enter service around 2017 or 2018.
> 
> Russia has high hopes for the C929, as evidenced by the string of Russian defense and industry ministers praising the jet to the press. UAC President Yuri Slyusar said that the C929 will cost $13 billion to develop, with a first flight between 2021 and 2022. Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov says that Chinese and Russian engineers will develop the prototype blueprints between 2016 and 2018, with a service entry date of 2025. Slyusar notes that UAC will build the composite wing and tail of the C929, while China will handle fuselage construction. To reduce costs and improve reliability, the initial C929 is likely to use Western engines from Pratt & Whitney, General Electric or Rolls Royce, though Russia's United Engine Corporation hopes to power some C929 by 2030. Chinese technologies would likely include the use of advanced manufacturing techniques like 3D printing, not to mention funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Chartered Air Force One* _China Daily_ Currently, Chinese presidents charter Air China (China's flag carrier) Boeing 747s to take them aboard, such as this visit by then President Hu Jintao to Mexico in 2005. In the future, the C929 is likely to be the first aircraft to serve as a permanent airliner for China's future leaders.
> 
> The C929's basic 290 passenger capacity suggests that it would have a maximum takeoff weight of about 250 tons, about the same size as the Boeing 787 or Airbus 350. On the civilian side, initial C929s may not be technologically advanced as their Western counterparts, but they would provide a lower cost alternative for airlines around the world. Likewise, a militarized C929 would be a welcome addition to China's military aviation. A C929 in PLAAF service could serve as a refueling tanker (the similarly sized A330 MRTT is already in Australian, British, Saudi and Singaporean service) for Chinese bombers and stealth fighters. The C929 would also be more fuel efficient than Y-20 and Il-76 cargo planes, making it a longer ranged aerial command center for Chinese air operations, as well as serving as an "Air Force One" for Chinese leaders, in addition to being an airborne nuclear command post.
> 
> China And Russia Join Forces To Build New Jumbo Jet | Popular Science


Please cirr the story page is white blank except I long press screen and highlight everything only topics and reply are seen. Can I rectify or you have same problem. Pls don't lol.


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## mike2000

BoQ77 said:


> Wonder the role of Russian in the new jumbo jet.
> Doesn't Russia have 3D printing technology and reliable engines for that?



Good question bro. lol Well Russia's engine tech still lags far behind that of the U.K/U.S and even France. Reason they wont be using their Soviet era engines to power such a sophisticated jet liner. They need more time to design such a sophisticated engine for such a crucial civilian aircraft . Better to use proven/reliable enginesso this aircraft can be sucessful. So i will say the Russians made a good decision BOQ.

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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> Good question bro. lol Well Russia's engine tech still lags far behind that of the U.K/U.S and *even France*. Reason they wont be using their Soviet era engines to power such a sophisticated jet liner. They need more time to design such a sophisticated engine for such a crucial civilian aircraft . Better to use proven/reliable enginesso this aircraft can be sucessful. So i will say the Russians made a good decision BOQ.



lol, France hasn't even built any military aircraft engine which is comparable to AL-31 or WS-10, neither is the UK.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> lol, France hasn't even built any military aircraft engine which is comparable to AL-31 or WS-10, neither is the UK.



Actually Rolls Royce are world leaders in jet engine construction.

France's Snecma has allied with US manufacturers to develop civilian jet engine and has helped Russia develop engines for a new jet.



mike2000 said:


> Good question bro. lol Well Russia's engine tech still lags far behind that of the U.K/U.S and even France. Reason they wont be using their Soviet era engines to power such a sophisticated jet liner. They need more time to design such a sophisticated engine for such a crucial civilian aircraft . Better to use proven/reliable enginesso this aircraft can be sucessful. So i will say the Russians made a good decision BOQ.



I am still a little surprised that Russia/China don't feel confident enough to develop a competitive jet engine by 2025.

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## mike2000

UKBengali said:


> Actually Rolls Royce are world leaders in jet engine construction.
> 
> France's Snecma has allied with US manufacturers to develop civilian jet engine and has helped Russia develop engines for a new jet.
> 
> 
> 
> I am still a little surprised that Russia/China don't feel confident enough to develop a competitive jet engine by 2025.



He doesnt seem to know that our Rolls-Royce RB 199 MK 103 turbofan engines powersTornado GR4, by the way our turbofan engine is more adavanced than Russian ones , much less the WS10.lol , thought Chinese Tiger knew this obviously.

As for your last point, well the Chinese and Russians are just being realistic. They are not yet capable of producing a large jet liner engine for such a sophisticated/large aircraft like this one, especially to international standards. So its better to be realistic and know your limits than to set unrealistic targets which you know you cant meet, kind of like the Indians saying they will develop an engine to power their fith generation aircraft by themselves. So better be pragmatic and make your projects move forward faster even if it means using a foreign engine. Same as China using foreign engines for its ARJ and C919 aircraft and russian engines to power most of its fighter jets/transport aircrafts.

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## Aepsilons

mike2000 said:


> He doesnt seem to know that our Rolls-Royce RB 199 MK 103 turbofan engines powersTornado GR4, by the way our turbofan engine is more adavanced than the Russian ones , much less the WS10.lol , thought Chinese Tiger knew this obviously.




Rolls Royce is in a league of its own. Period.

The name Rolls Royce exudes Excellence, Class. Often imitated but never duplicated.

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## UKBengali

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Rolls Royce is in a league of its own. Period.
> 
> The name Rolls Royce exudes Excellence, Class. Often imitated but never duplicated.



Rolls Royce is equal to any US manufacturer in jet engine tech -particularly civilian turbofans.

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## Aepsilons

UKBengali said:


> Rolls Royce is equal to any US manufacturer in jet engine tech -particularly civilian turbofans.



Rolls Royce spey turbofans are standardized the model for civilian and military turbofans (specially for maritime). 

Anyways, the epitome of Rolls Royce Class is this:

The Rolls Royce Phantom,





$480,000 (US Dollars) , starting price.

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## mike2000

UKBengali said:


> Rolls Royce is equal to any US manufacturer in jet engine tech -particularly civilian turbofans.


Actually we have built the first fighter jet aircraft in the world and the allies first operational fighter jet called the gloster meteor. It also was powered by Rolls-Royce turbine engines, which by the way was the first turboprop aircraft tin the world to fly. This just shows how much expereience/knowledge we have in this field. No country comes close tous in this field bar the U.S(who by the way got lots of tech from us as well in the beginning).
Its funny to see Chinese Tiegr comparing WS-10 to Rolls Royce engines, and saying we dont have anything comparable. loool Please use google more often bro.

Gloster Meteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Actually Rolls Royce are world leaders in jet engine construction.
> 
> *France's Snecma* has allied with US manufacturers to develop civilian jet engine and has helped Russia develop engines for a new jet.
> 
> 
> 
> I am still a little surprised that Russia/China don't feel confident enough to develop a competitive jet engine by 2025.



Well, this is the core of the jet engine technology for Snecma, which is also mainly the American technology.

CFM International CFM56 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, this is the core of the jet engine technology for Snecma, which is also mainly the American technology.
> 
> CFM International CFM56 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Google SAM146 jet engine, which is being used in Sukhoi SuperjetSuperjet. That is mainly French engine technology.

I would say in engine tech currently US = UK > France > Russia > China.

China should match Russia by 2020 though.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Google SAM146 jet engine, which is being used in Sukhoi SuperjetSuperjet. That is mainly French engine technology.
> 
> I would say in engine tech currently US = UK > France > Russia > China.
> 
> China should match Russia by 2020 though.



It is a medium thrust engine.

So far, only 3 countries who have made their 4th gen high thrust turbofan engine so far; USA/Russia/China.

And there will only have 2 countries for the 5th gen high thrust turbofan engine; USA/China.

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## Martian2

Chart source: Selected Russian-Chinese Oil & Gas Deals | Forbes

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## mike2000

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is a medium thrust engine.
> 
> So far, only 3 countries who have made their 4th gen high thrust turbofan engine so far; USA/Russia/China.
> 
> And there will only have 2 countries for the 5th gen high thrust turbofan engine; USA/China.



LOOL you are still insisting that China is ahead of the U.K and France in engine tech?Man, you sure are a ultra nationalistic chinese member my friend. Not even Superboy and Beidou will make such a claim and insist on it. I think we should call the Chinese big brother moderator @Hu Songshan and my friend @Chinese-Dragon to talk some sense/reason to Chinese tiger.  

Im not trying to put down China or Russia though, for i know they both are indeed moving ahead in their projects aand in Chinas case it has made tremendous progress which many thought they wouldnt have achieved so fast. But to compare a still to be fully operational/reliable engine like WS-10 to a top tier/world class engine maker like Rolls-Royce who has been making engines for decades since world war II before China even started/knew anything about industrialization is indeed laughable to say the least. I wouldnt even go further or into too much detail on this, since every sane member here knows there is no match between the two as of now. So chill my friend.

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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 said:


> LOOL you are still insisting that China is ahead of the U.K and France in engine tech?Man, you sure are a ultra nationalistic chinese member my friend. Not even Superboy and Beidou will make such a claim and insist on it. I think we should call the Chinese big brother moderator @Hu Songshan and my friend @Chinese-Dragon to talk some sense/reason to Chinese tiger.
> 
> Im not trying to put down China or Russia though, for i know they both are indeed moving ahead in their projects aand in Chinas case it has made tremendous progress which many thought they wouldnt have achieved so fast. But to compare a still to be fully operational/reliable engine like WS-10 to a top tier/world class engine maker like Rolls-Royce who has been making engines for decades since world war II before China even started/knew anything about industrialization is indeed laughable to say the least. I wouldnt even go further or into too much detail on this, since every sane member here knows there is no match between the two as of now. So chill my friend.



About the UK, it depends. China is ahead in the military aircraft engine, but the UK is more advanced in the passenger jet engine.

About France, we are ahead because they don't possess their own core technology of the turbofan engine.

Since it all belongs to the GE.

The Leap Engine

BTW, the WS-10 engine is fully operational right now. Otherwise, don't you think we are stupid enough to mount it on more than hundred of aircrafts?

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## Keel

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> lol, France hasn't even built any *military* aircraft engine which is comparable to AL-31 or WS-10, neither is the UK.



I guess the above trolls didnt understand the meaning or have overlooked of the *word*

*



*

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## Yousafzai_M

I know they were making deals and specially after the Ukraine conflict, Russia is said to be turning to East. I wasn't aware of the volume though, thanks for sharing.

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## Keel

Martian2 said:


> Chart source: Selected Russian-Chinese Oil & Gas Deals | Forbes


That $1.187 Trillion hasnt included period in between 09 and 13 nor the undisclosed deals

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## SR-91

UKBengali said:


> Actually Rolls Royce are world leaders in jet engine construction.
> 
> France's Snecma has allied with US manufacturers to develop civilian jet engine and has helped Russia develop engines for a new jet.
> 
> 
> 
> I am still a little surprised that Russia/China don't feel confident enough to develop a competitive jet engine by 2025.



Its quite simple, China, probably wanted complete TOT on engines n Russia doesn't want to share this critical technology.


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## mike2000

SR-91 said:


> Its quite simple, China, probably wanted complete TOT on engines n Russia doesn't want to share this critical technology.



Why would they share it? lol No sane country in this world would EVER share their engine tech with another country to be honest. Not even Russia has done it with their 'best friend' India. 



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> About the UK, it depends.* China is ahead in the military aircraft engine*, but the UK is more advanced in the passenger jet engine.
> 
> About France, we are ahead because they don't possess their own core technology of the turbofan engine.
> 
> Since it all belongs to the GE.
> 
> The Leap Engine
> 
> BTW, the WS-10 engine is fully operational right now. Otherwise, don't you think we are stupid enough to mount it on more than hundred of aircrafts?



Ok if you believe that then good for you.

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## TaiShang

China-Russia cooperation in the field of civilian aircraft may create a synergy similar to that of Airbus. So long as there is political will, that's going to happen sooner than later.

Russia, China to Invest $13Bln Into New Long-Haul Airplane Project / Sputnik International

*Russia and China plan on investing $13 billion into a joint long-range passenger airplane project. If things work out as planned, the new plane will go into production in 2025.*

MOSCOW, January 29 (Sputnik) — Russia and China may invest $13 billion into a joint long-range passenger aircraft project, the president of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) told journalists Thursday.





Putin Expresses Confidence for New Russia-China Projects in 2015: Kremlin

According to Yury Slusar, the jumbo jet will be built in cooperation with the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (Comac) and financed by the two sides on an equal basis. A working group established earlier is expected to prepare the aircraft's preliminary design this year, the UAC head noted.

*Details of the cooperation are in the works, however Slusar speculated that Russia may take on the manufacture of the airliner's composite wing, while China may build its fuselage. The engine, he said, could be left to an outside manufacturer since Russia has no production plans for engines of this kind.*

Slusar said the plane will undergo its first test flight in 2021 and is expected to go into production in 2025.

Deals for a wide-body passenger aircraft and modern transport helicopter were inked by Moscow and Beijing on June 6, 2014.

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## TaiShang

Martian2 said:


> Chart source: Selected Russian-Chinese Oil & Gas Deals | Forbes




Amazing. There you go! China and Russia are true partners now.

*Energy ties with Russia 'important for China'*
February 14, 2015




People walk past boards showing currency exchange rates in Moscow, Dec 17, 2014. The dramatic fall in Russia's rouble slowed on Dec 17, with the government selling foreign currency to prop it up after a 50 percent fall against the dollar this year. [Photo/China Daily]



The nation should maintain close cooperation with Russia in the energy sector and accelerate a new natural gas pipeline project, said Vice-Premier Zhang Gaoli on Friday in Beijing during his meeting with Alexei Miller, president of Russia's state-owned natural gas giant Gazprom OAO.

Zhang said the two neighbors achieved great success in the energy industry last year and will focus on making their cooperation more effective for mutual benefit.

Based on bilateral agreements, China and Russia will accelerate the construction of a western natural gas pipeline linking Russia's Siberia and northwestern China.

"The two nations should also actively explore cooperation opportunities in upstream resources development, energy project construction and equipment manufacturing," Zhang said.

Miller said Russia would like to explore further energy cooperation.

*Han Xiaoping, chief information officer of China Energy Net Consulting Co Ltd, said facing political pressure from the West and domestic financial difficulties, Russia needs to swallow its pride and cooperate with China intensively.

"The first item on Russia's agenda should be opening up its energy market for Chinese companies, which will be beneficial for both countries," Han said.*

*As a strong manufacturing country after years of development, China can contribute more to Russia's energy sector. For instance, PetroChina Co Ltd, the nation's biggest oil and gas producer, can bring advanced exploration technology to Russia.*

"Chinese companies' oil and gas exploration equipment can also be brought to Russia for its energy industry growth," he said.

China and Russia signed a $400 billion natural gas supply contract in May, under which Gazprom will supply China with 38 billion cubic meters of gas annually for 30 years, starting in 2018, through the planned eastern pipeline.

The pipeline will connect Russia to China's northeastern Heilongjiang province and from there connect with the industrialized cities along China's eastern coast.

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## TaiShang

*China’s Xinjiang-Russia trade rose 374% in 2014 | The BRICS Post*

*February 14, 2015, 9:15 am*






Resource-rich Xinjiang remains a critical part of China’s economic strategy [Xinhua]

*Trade between China’s far-western Xinjiang and Russia grew more than threefold last year amid a slowdown in the region’s foreign trade due to falling commodity prices, China’s official customs statistics body said on Saturday.

Resource-rich Xinjiang’s trade with Russia rose a whopping 374 per cent year on year in 2014 to $2.15 billion, compared with a 0.4-per cent rise in total Sino-Russian foreign trade to $27.67 billion during the same period.*

The Chinese region of Xinjiang borders eight countries, including Russia and Afghanistan. The Chinese government has been battling a growing threat of Islamist militants in the region.

The China-Russia slowdown in overall trade volume is mostly a result of shrinking imports, which saw a 20.9-per cent drop to $4.19 billion last year, China’s statistics body said. Exports rose 5.5 per cent year on year to $23.48 billion.

*Falling commodities prices are fueling the decline as crude oil and minerals account for the majority of Xinjiang’s imports. Crude oil and iron ore sand, whose prices fell 18.4 and 21 per cent respectively, accounted for 53.8 per cent of Xinjiang’s total import volume last year.*

Trade with Xinjiang’s largest partner, Kazakhstan, with whom the region also shares the border, was down 17.3 per cent to $10.13 billion.

Li Bin, a customs official at Xinjiang’s capital Urumqi, said Xinjiang’s trade growth this year will be underpinned by upcoming policies from local and central governments supporting the rejuvenated Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road initiatives of Chinese President Xi Jinping.

*Over the past year President Xi Jinping has spelled out ambitious plans to open China’s west and build a “New Silk Road” network of intercontinental land routes and maritime lines that would connect China to its Central and Southeast Asian neighbours. He announced a $40 billion fund to invest in infrastructure projects earlier in November.*

Meanwhile, China’s Foreign Minister has, in December, pledged support to Russia as it faces an economic downturn due to sanctions and a drop in oil prices. Boosting trade in yuan is a solution proposed by Beijing.

“Russia has the capability and the wisdom to overcome the existing hardship in the economic situation,” Foreign Minister Wang Yi said. “If the Russian side needs it, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity.”

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## Misay

BoQ77 said:


> Wonder the role of Russian in the new jumbo jet.
> Doesn't Russia have 3D printing technology and reliable engines for that?


A technology only Russia and the United States, not the engine.The engine is just a smoke bomb


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## Tshering22

This would be a good alternative to the Western built options in the coming years. Looking at the timeline, this jet would also replace the IL-96-300PU that Putin flies and the Chinese Air Force One as VVIP transport fleet.


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## BoQ77

_*I do hope the new air passenger come as planned.




The ARJ21 programme was launched in 2002 and took its first flight in 2008. It flew for more than six years, accumulating over 5,000 flight hours, before today's certification.

Click to expand...


------------------------------------------------------------------------*

MISSISSAUGA, ONTARIO--(CCNMatthews - Dec. 15, 2006) - MTI Global Inc. (TSX:MTI) announced today that it has been awarded a long term contract by China's AVIC 1 Commercial Aircraft Company (ACAC) to supply thermal and acoustic insulation systems for the new Chinese regional jet - the ARJ 21. The contract is to supply the manufacturer of the aircraft - the Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (SAMF) - in China.

"This contract reconfirms our position as the industry leader for regional jets," said Bill Neill, President and Chief Executive Officer of MTI Global. "This new opportunity opens many doors for MTI-PolyFab into the Asian aerospace market."

The first delivery will take place in 2006 and MTI believes that, based on current listed price for systems, volumes could exceed CDN $1,000,000 per year.

ACAC plans to have the first 90-seat ARJ21-700 aircraft roll out at the end of 2007 followed by first flight in March 2008 and is aiming to have the ARJ21-700 receive Chinese certification in September 2009.

"This contract is a culmination of a three-year effort by our sales and engineering team," said Marc Simard, Executive Vice President, MTI Global's aerospace division. "We are proud to be selected as the supplier of choice for this new program."

"We are very happy to sign the contract for the thermal and acoustic insulation systems with MTI," said Bai Yuanchao, Director of Purchasing, Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory. "This joint press release demonstrates the will of MTI Global to open the Asian aerospace market and demonstrates the level of trust and cooperation that both organizations have in each other."

Nancy Liu, Insulation Project Manager at Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory stated that, "It is our goal to continue growing our relationship with MTI and to develop new opportunities with them." She adds, "We wish MTI great success in future development and hope our cooperation will be mutually beneficial."

ACAC forecasts a demand of over 500 regional aircraft over the next 20 years for the developing Chinese aviation market. Currently Shandong Airlines has ordered 10 aircraft and will be the launch customer. Shanghai Airlines and Shenzhen Financial Leasing have ordered five and 20 respectively.

-----------------------------
*Comac yet to firm ARJ21 delivery date for Chengdu Airlines*
By: MAVIS TOH
SINGAPORE

02:13 7 Jan 2015
Comac has yet to firm a date for the delivery of its first ARJ21-700 to launch customer Chengdu Airlines.

A spokesman tells Flightglobal the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) is conducting an airworthiness inspection on the regional jet. It is also reviewing Comac’s operational support system and will have to grant it a production licence.

Only after these validations, can the first ARJ21 be delivered sometime in 2015, says the spokesman.

He adds that aircraft 105 to 109 are scheduled for Chengdu Airlines. Aircraft 105 and 106 have taken their first flights, while aircraft 107 is undergoing final assembly. Parts assembly is meanwhile ongoing for aircraft 108 and 109.

CAAC issued type certification for the indigenous regional jet on 30 December 2014, marking a major milestone for China in its foray into the commercial aircraft manufacturing sector. The certification came more than 12 years after the programme was launched.

_


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## UKBengali

SR-91 said:


> Its quite simple, China, probably wanted complete TOT on engines n Russia doesn't want to share this critical technology.



China is likely to be comparable to Russian engine tech by 2025. In fact probably earlier than this if you look at the current engine base they have and the amount of simultaneous programs China has right now.

They should pool their resources and jointly develop the engine, even if it is a little inferior than
what they can get from the West. This way they both propel their civilian engine tech further closer to the US/ UK.

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## Beidou2020

I think High-bypass turbofan jet engine is the most difficult technology to develop.

Much more difficult than developing advanced microprocessors or PC/mobile operating systems.

Can anyone think of a more difficult technological feat than developing your own high-bypass turbofan jet engine?

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China to boost finance, aviation & space partnerships*
Published time: February 17, 2015 13:39







Reuters / How Hwee Yong

China and Russia plan to extend their strategic partnership in finance, aviation and space as well as improve trade and economic cooperation, said Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping.

_"It is essential to improve practical cooperation, as both sides will be increasing and expanding trade, and innovation,"_ Cheng said during a news conference in Beijing as quoted by Rossiya Segodnya.

Trade between the two countries was worth $95.3 billion in 2014. China and Russia expect it to reach $200 billion by 2020.

The two countries will continue to expand cooperation in aviation, space and nuclear energy; he said adding that China will actively cooperate with Russia in finance to seek new forms of interaction.

_"We believe that our potential and capacity are far from exhausted,"_ Cheng said.






Moscow and Beijing have been boosting cooperation in various fields, including the energy sector in which the countries signed a huge $400 billion gas deal.






Russia and China seal historic $400bn gas deal

Most recently, the two countries decided to create a joint rating agency that’ll counter balance the existing Western ‘Big Three’ of S&P, Moody’s and Fitch.

READ MORE: China and Russia to launch new credit rating agency in 2015

The decision to switch to local currencies in trading settlements is a major move towards reducing dependence on the US dollar and creating an alternative within the global financial system.

In May 2014 Russia and China announced a joint project for a long-range aircraft worth $13 billion. The jet is expected to occupy a large market share both in Russia and China challenging Boeing and Airbus.

In February Russia and China agreed to cooperate on satellite navigation. The two countries along with their BRICS partner India are expected to discuss the creation of a joint orbiting station at the BRICS summit in Ufa in April, according to experts from Russian Military Industrial Commission.

@vostok

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## TimeTraveller

Nice.......


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## tore

China could be the big winner of the Ukraine crisis - Business Insider

*China could be the big winner of the Ukraine crisis*




GABRIELA MARIN THORNTON AND ALEXEY ILIN, THE CONVERSATION

FEB. 23, 2015, 9:10 AM
9,309

12

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Photo by Greg Bowker - Pool/Getty ImagesChinese President Xi Jinping raises his glass for a toast during his talk before lunch at SkyCity Grand Hotel on November 21, 2014 in Auckland, New Zealand.

The crisis in Ukraine has plunged US-Russian relations to their lowest point since the Cold War.

Crimea is now Russian territory. Although prisoners of war have been exchanged and both sides have agreed to pull back heavy weapons, the accord signed on February 12 in Minsk has failed so far to stop the fighting in Eastern Ukraine.

The city of Debaltseve has fallen into the hands of the separatists. On Sunday a bomb exploded at a rally in Ukraine’s second largest city Kharkiv killing two – the suspects are accused by the Ukrainian government as having been trained in Russia.

For Washington, the conflict between the West and Russia has become much more than a conflict over Ukraine’s territorial integrity. It has become a provocation to the Western liberal international order that the US worked hard to create at the end of the Cold War; an order based on democracy, the rule of law, and free markets. Russia has not gone down this road. Instead, it is now challenging the European security order and most particularly the Eastern European states.

Talk of a new Cold War has emerged in Washington political circles. Similar views are echoed in Moscow. Konstantin Sonin, a professor at the Higher School of Economics in Moscow, says of the Kremlin’s thinking: “The country [Russia] is on a holy mission. It’s at war with the United States.”

In pushing to impose sanctions against Moscow (and possibly arm the Ukrainians), US policymakers seem to have given little thought to the long-term geopolitical impact of this rift on relations with China.

If there is no viable solution to the Ukrainian conflict, we believe that the unintended “winner” of the crisis could well be China.

Here’s why.




Sergei Karpukhin/Reuters



*China rising*
According the International Monetary Fund, China has now surpassed the United States as the world’s number one economy as measured by purchasing power parity. Beijing is also engaged in a major military buildup. Like other emerging great powers in history - especially the US in the late 19th century - China seeks to emerge as the dominant power in its own region.

Russia is helping to fuel China’s rise. If the US and Europe don’t mend their adversarial relationship with Russia, China will be in a position to counteract the US even sooner.

Russia’s economy is tanking because of collapsing oil prices and Western sanctions. The World Bank now projects that Russia’s gross domestic product (GDP) will decline by 2.9% in 2015. And the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development estimates that Russia’s economy will shrink by close to five per cent this year.

In a desperate attempt to stave off economic disaster, Russia is turning towards Asia to sell its natural resources, obtain loans and forge new military arrangements.

In May 2014, for example, Moscow and Beijing signed a US $400 billion gas deal. In November 2014, another framework agreement for gas supply to China was signed. In September 2014, then-US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel pointed out that China and Russia are jointly developing new weapons systems. Russia’s trade with China is expected to increase to $100 billion this year from $90 billion in 2014.




Dmitry Azarov/Kommersant Photo/GettyMeeting of the Chinese President Xi Jinping and the president of Russia Vladimir Putin before the opening ceremony at the Expo Center at the fourth Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) summit on May 20, 2014 in Shanghai, China.



*Faustian bargain*
The two-fold logic of this rapprochement is simple: China needs resources and Russia has them. Russia needs markets, foreign investment, and money and China has them.

Geopolitical interests also overlap. China does not want the South China Sea dominated by Americans. Russia does not want the West – the US and Europe - to penetrate what Moscow perceives as “its sphere of influence.” In short, Russia and China do not want a world dominated by the US. That much is clear.

At the same time, China and Russia are geopolitical rivals. Indeed for Russia, its links to China are a Faustian bargain.

In the short term, Russia gains by selling oil, gas, and other natural resources to China. In the longer term, however, the consequence is to further strengthen the emergence of a China that seems fated to be Russia’s long-term competitor. Moscow is helping China to grow economically and become more powerful even as Russia itself is becoming weaker.




Sasha Mordovets/Getty ImagesPresident of Russia Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping toast with vodka during a signing ceremony on May 21, 2014 in Shanghai, China.



*Realpolitik*
European leaders are rightly alarmed by the situation in Ukraine. The casualties are mounting and Ukrainian economy is on the verge of collapse. A solution to the crisis needs to be found.

There is a lot of talk, especially in Washington, about the “post-Soviet space” - the former republics of the Soviet Union (like Ukraine) that gained independence following the Soviet collapse. US and European policymakers need to remember that the post-Soviet space was also the pre-Soviet space - the Tsarist Russian empire. Russia still sees itself as the dominant power in a region in which history and culture give it special interests. While the redrawing of Europe’s map, as Vice President Biden puts it, is unacceptable, it is a fact on the ground that will be difficult to undo.

Despite understandable condemnations of the Russian moves, negotiations with Moscow should continue.

Longer term, the US needs to think about how to be a triangular great power. Most US strategic thinkers agree that it is China, not Russia, that poses the most significant 21st century geopolitical challenge to the United States. Strategy 101 would then dictate that Russia should be a counterweight to rising China.

But at the moment US (and European) policy is pushing Russia into China’s arms. This, we would argue, is a geopolitical mistake. If the US-Russia rift is not healed, it is China that will be the winner.



Read more: The real winner of the Ukraine crisis could be China


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## ChineseTiger1986

Well, now they have to consider China + Russia as the challenge of one entity.

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## war is peace

Lol


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## TaiShang

Article says nothing new.

Thank you to the White House for enabling more strategic room for maneuver by actively supporting "pro-US troops" of Ukraine. 

Thank you to the White House for training, equipping and supporting the 'now' radical but formerly "moderate' anti-Syria forces. 

Thank you to the White House for spying on even the closest Western allies.

China-Russia strategic partnership would poised to improve with or without outside geopolitical developments. But the US policies have just given it a boost. 

***

*Chinese, Russian FMs stress on primacy of UNSC in conflict-resolution 
February 24, 2015, *
The Bricks Post





Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi(L) meets with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov in New York, the United States, on Feb. 23, 2015 [Xinhua]

Chinese and Russian Foreign Ministers Wang Yi and Sergey Lavrov have vowed to work together to fulfill their responsibilities as permanent members of the UN Security Council in maintaining international peace and security.

The two leaders met on the sidelines of the open debate initiated by China at the UNSC headquarters in New York on Monday.

*Wang said “frequent contacts of the two countries’ leaders have ensured that China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership keeps developing at a high level” according to Chinese state-run agency Xinhua.*

The two diplomats also reaffirmed that Beijing and Moscow will “maintain high-level exchanges, continue to support each other, and strengthen communication and coordination on significant international and regional hotspot issues”.

Lavrov has warned that the UN faces the risk of being irrelevant, if its fails to “overcome accumulated systemic problems and correct them before it is too late”.

*“We believe it is necessary to immediately take decisive measures to reject double standards in world politics, to return the Security Council the role of a leading body on coordination of collective approaches relying upon respect for the cultural and civilizational diversity of the modern world, democratization of international relations,” Lavrov said at the UNSC debate on Monday.*

He was echoed by his Chinese counterpart Wang, who argued that no country in the world is entitled to impose its own will on others or to topple legitimate governments of other countries.

“We should make sure that justice, not hegemony, will prevail in the world,” Wang said in an apparent jibe at the US.
*
“In China’s view, any unilateral move that bypass the Security Council is illegal and illegitimate,” *the Chinese Foreign Minister added. “The Security Council needs to take more precautionary measures to forestall conflict and act in a timely manner to stop warfare so as to restore peace and promote reconstruction as early as possible.”

Russia and China have earlier criticized the US air strikes in Syria and Iraq without the express approval of Damascus or a mandate from the UN Security Council.

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China Sign Satellite Navigation Agreement*
February 10, 2015 - By GPS World staff





Russia and China have signed a cooperation agreement on satellite navigation, a Russian Space Agency spokesperson told RIA Novosti on Tuesday.

Roscosmos chief Igor Komarov met with Xu Dazhe, the leader of China’s National Space Administration, on an official visit in Beijing.

“The first provision to set up a committee and a protocol were signed during the first working session. Igor Komarov and Xu Dazhe discussed issues of bilateral cooperation in the field of electronic components for rocket construction and building rocket engines,” the spokesperson said.

A Russian-Chinese committee on satellite navigation was established in October 2014 at the meeting between Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yang.

*In November, China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) and the Russian GLONASS nonprofit partnership agreed to establish a joint venture to promote worldwide services based on GLONASS and BeiDou.*

Russia and China also recently completed joint reconnaissance for the placement of GLONASS differential correction and monitoring stations in the Chinese cities of Urumqi and Changchun. Each country is expected to accommodate three such facilities.

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## TaiShang

*​Chinese diplomat lectures West on Russia’s ‘real security concerns’ over Ukraine — RT News*

*Chinese diplomat lectures West on Russia’s ‘real security concerns’ over Ukraine*
Published time: February 27, 2015 12:50 




Russian President Vladimir Putin (L) and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping.(Reuters / How Hwee Yong)

Ukraine turmoil

Western nations should heed Russia's legitimate security concerns over the volatile situation in Ukraine, a top Chinese diplomat has said in a rare public statement on the crisis that has damaged relations between Russia and the West.

Qu Xing, China's ambassador to Belgium, said the Ukrainian crisis came about due to the ongoing _“game”_– a metaphor similar to that used by US geopolitical strategist Zbigniew Brzezinski, who referred to it as the _“grand chessboard”_ – between Russia and the West, which has not abated despite, or because of, the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Arguing that outside interference by various powers inflamed the Ukrainian situation, Xing said Moscow would naturally feel threatened unless Western powers engaged in a more constructive approach. 

Xing advised Western powers to _“abandon the zero-sum mentality”_ in their efforts to deal with Moscow and the Ukraine crisis and _“take the real security concerns of Russia into consideration,"_ Reuters reported, quoting state news agency Xinhua. 

China in the past has urged all involved parties to sit down and negotiate for peace. 

The Chinese ambassador, whose Brussels office is in the same city as NATO’s headquarters, then offered some insight as to what motivates the United States on the international stage, and what could lead to its possible decline. 

_“The United States is unwilling to see its presence in any part of the world being weakened, but the fact is its resources are limited, and it will be to some extent hard work to sustain its influence in external affairs,”_he was quoted as saying.






Xing said Washington's involvement in Ukraine could _“become a distraction in its foreign policy.”_ 

The Chinese diplomat’s comments represent a sharp departure from the relentless wave of hostile rhetoric coming from the West, which has gone to great lengths to blame Russia as the aggressor in the crisis.

Russia has been accused of arming eastern Ukrainian militia and dispatching soldiers and armaments as reinforcement – claims Moscow has denied on numerous occasions. There were even suggestions that Russia was somehow involved in the downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. 

Despite the extreme nature of the allegations, no substantive evidence has ever been presented to support such claims. 

Indeed, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has blamed the United States as being the primary destabilizing factor in Ukraine. 

_“Through every step, as the crisis has developed, our American colleagues and the EU under their influence have tried to escalate the situation,”_ Lavrov told participants at the Munich Security Conference earlier this month. 

Lavrov pointed to the failure of the EU to engage Russia over Brussels’ efforts to have Ukraine sign an economic association agreement with the bloc; the involvement of Western political figures during the Maidan protests; the failure of the West to condemn Kiev for branding its own citizens “terrorists;” and for supporting a coup that led to the toppling of a democratically elected president.

_“The US made it public it brokered the transit of power in Ukraine. But we know perfectly well what exactly happened, who discussed candidates for the future Ukrainian government on the phone, who was at Maidan, and what is going on [in Ukraine] right now,”_ Lavrov said. 

China is a member of BRICS, the economic association that includes Brazil, Russia, India and South Africa.

***

*China harangues US over anti-Russia stance
February 27, 2015*








In a clear indication of its strong support for its BRICS partner, China has said western nations must shed their zero-sum mentality and accommodate Russian security concerns over the Ukraine crisis.

The Ukraine crisis is being fueled by games played by the US and the European Union, said a Chinese diplomat on Thursday.

“The United States is unwilling to see its presence in any part of the world being weakened, but the fact is its resources are limited, and it will be to some extent a hard work to sustain its influence in external affairs, ” Chinese envoy to Belgium Qu Xing told state news agency_Xinhua_.

“There were internal and external reasons for the Ukraine crisis. Originally, the issue stemmed from Ukraine’s internal problems, but it now was not a simple internal matter. Without external intervention from different powers, the Ukrainian problem would not develop into the serious crisis as it be,” Qu said.

China has, earlier, criticized Western sanctions on Russia over the Ukraine crisis.

Qu notes that the eastern and western parts of Ukraine had differing cultural and ethnic traditions historically and that Russian-speaking regions had held long close ties with Moscow.

In what was a clear backing for Russian interests in the region, the Chinese envoy said Moscow is feeling “anxious that the West may squeeze its geographical space by extending influence in eastern European countries including Ukraine”.

Ukraine could be a warning for most countries in the world, says the Chinese ambassador.

“The major powers need to seek a win-win situation rather than zero-sum security,” Qu said.

Notwithstanding Washington’s military prowess, the US is still insecure, consistently increasing its sphere of influence, including moves to enhance the global distribution of ballistic missile defense systems.

The envoy alluded to Washington’s national security review system for foreign investors’ mergers and acquisition activities in the States. But its definition of “national security” was not clear or transparent enough, Qu alleged.

The US “is highly sensitive to its own security, while ignoring other countries’ basic security needs and concerns”, he added.

“The West should abandon the zero-sum mentality, and take the real security concerns of Russia into consideration,” said Qu.

With the EU’s geographical proximity to Ukraine and its energy dependence on Russia, the European Union is more pragmatic than the US over the Ukraine issue, he said.

The lack of US participation in the Minsk agreement, on the one hand, raised the negotiation leverage for EU partners but left room for maneuver.

“Even though a latest ceasefire agreement had been achieved, it is still possible for the Western parties to change the original decisions in the future for the excuse that the United States was not involved in the negotiations,” he said.

The United States and some leaders in Europe have, this week, threatened to impose tougher sanctions against Moscow.

Additionally, the US is considering arming the Ukrainian military.


West Should Appreciate Russia’s Security Concerns – Chinese Diplomat / Sputnik International

*If a country is highly sensitive to its own security issues while ignoring others’ security needs, it will cause a lot of problems and pose a serious threat to the entire international community, according to Chinese Ambassador to Belgium Qu Xing.*






'Where West Comes to Spread Democracy, Disasters Follow' - Emir Kusturica

Western powers should take Russia’s legitimate security concerns into consideration, Chinese Ambassador to Belgium Qu Xing told to state news agency Xinhua.

His comments were an unusually public show of understanding from China for the Russian position. China and Russia see eye-to-eye on many international diplomatic issues but Beijing had not been this openly critical of the West before

The diplomat said there were internal and external reasons for the Ukrainian crisis and it stemmed from country’s internal problem. However, without intervention from different powers, the Ukrainian problem would not have transformed into such a serious crisis. Without external intervention from different powers, the Ukrainian problem would not have developed into the serious crisis as it is," he said.

In addition, Qu said that the involvement of the US into the crisis has become a distraction for its foreign policy, including its "re-balanced strategy."

"The United States is unwilling to see its presence in any part of the world being weakened, but the fact is its resources are limited, and it will be to some extent a hard work to sustain its influence in external affairs," Qu stated.






Lavrov Sees No ‘Objective Reasons’ for New Cold War

"The major powers need to seek a win-win situation rather than zero-sum security," he said adding that countries need to rethink the concepts in international affairs and learn from the Ukrainian crisis.

If a country is highly sensitive to its own security issues while ignoring others’ security needs, it will cause a lot of problems and pose a serious threat to the entire international community, according to Qu.

"The West should abandon the zero-sum mentality, and take the real security concerns of Russia into consideration," he said.

Major powers should work together to solve global security problems following the principle of equality, cooperation, and mutual benefits and trust, the diplomat concluded.

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## Beast

With China taking side, we are really to lose Ukraine but we have milk enough of Ukraine. QC-280 gas turbine project completed, AI-222 turbofan with after burner and fadec has also transfer plus Zubr know how also transfer. Domestic 1200HP tank engine also completed.

There is nothing much Ukraine can offer for China.

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## Carlosa

*As I had predicted recently:*
*China Warns US, Sides with Russia over Ukraine Conflict*
It's official: China is now openly warning the United States against meddling further in Ukraine
(Zero Hedge)
China Warns US, Sides with Russia over Ukraine Conflict - Russia Insider





The winner

_This article originally appeared at *Zero Hedge*_

When it comes to the Ukraine proxy war, which started in earnest just about one year ago with the violent coup that overthrew then president Yanukovich and replaced him with a local pro-US oligarch, there has been no ambiguity who the key actors were: on the left, we had the west, personified by the US, the European Union, and NATO in general; while on the right we had Russia. In fact, if there was any confusion, it was about the role of that other "elephant in the room" - China.

To be sure, a question few asked throughout the Ukraine civil war is just whose side is China leaning toward. After all the precarious balance of power between NATO and Russia had resulted in a stalemate in which neither side has an obvious advantage (even as the Ukraine economy died, and its currency hyperinflated, waiting for a clear winner), and the explicit or implicit support of China to either camp would make all the difference in the world, not to mention the world's most formidable axis.

Today we finally got the answer, and the winner is... this guy:





Xinhua reported that late on Thursday Qu Xing, China's ambassador to Belgium, was quoted as blaming competition between Russia and the West for the Ukraine crisis, urging Western powers to "abandon the zero-sum mentality" with Russia.

Cited by Reuters, Xing said that Western powers should take into consideration Russia's legitimate security concerns over Ukraine.

Reuters' assessment of Xing speech: "an unusually frank and open display of support for Moscow's position in the crisis."

Xinhua reported that late on Thursday Qu Xing, China's ambassador to Belgium, was quoted as blaming competition between Russia and the West for the Ukraine crisis, urging Western powers to "abandon the zero-sum mentality" with Russia.

Cited by Reuters, Xing said that Western powers should take into consideration Russia's legitimate security concerns over Ukraine.

Reuters' assessment of Xing speech: "an unusually frank and open display of support for Moscow's position in the crisis."






At least it is not a warning to the US to back off or else. Yet.

Speaking in very clear and explicit language, something diplomats are not used to doing, the Chinese ambassador said the "nature and root cause" of the crisis was the "game" between Russia and Western powers, including the United States and the European Union.

He said external intervention by different powers accelerated the crisis and warned that Moscow would feel it was being treated unfairly if the West did not change its approach.

"The West should abandon the zero-sum mentality, and take the real security concerns of Russia into consideration," Qu was quoted as saying.

His comments were an unusually public show of understanding from China for the Russian position. China and Russia see eye-to-eye on many international diplomatic issues but Beijing has generally not been so willing to back Russia over Ukraine.

As noted above, China has long been very cautious not to be drawn into the struggle between Russia and the West over Ukraine's future, not wanting to alienate a key ally. And yet, something changed overnight, with this very clear language, warning some could say, that China will no longer tolerate Pax Americana, and even the mere assumption of a unipolar western world, let alone the reality.

Qu's comments take place just as talks between the United States and its European allies over harsher sanctions against Moscow.

On Monday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Western powers of trying to dominate and impose their ideology on the rest of world. The United States and European delegations slammed Moscow for supporting rebels in eastern Ukraine.

Qu said Washington's involvement in Ukraine could "become a distraction in its foreign policy".

And then, Qu's slap in the face of Obama: "The United States is unwilling to see its presence in any part of the world being weakened, but the fact is its resources are limited, and it will be to some extent hard work to sustain its influence in external affairs."

Especially if and when China decides to send a few peacekeepers of its own into Ukraine. You know - just to make sure US influence in external affairs isn't "sustained" too much.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> With China taking side, we are really to lose Ukraine but we have milk enough of Ukraine. QC-280 gas turbine project completed, AI-222 turbofan with after burner and fadec has also transfer plus Zubr know how also transfer. Domestic 1200HP tank engine also completed.
> 
> There is nothing much Ukraine can offer for China.


 
China did not take side, Ukraine is still China best friend. A friendly advise doesn't mean at Ukraine expense, We did not provide Russia anything to harm Ukraine beside tell Western and especially US to back off of making thing worst in this region. I think both Russia and Ukraine will appreciate that China use water intead of adding oil to the fire.

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## Nan Yang

In any case, with Crimea, Russia now dominate the black sea effectively stopping NATO eastward expansion.

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## Place Of Space

Obviously, China is sides with Ukraine people and Russia government.

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## beijingwalker

If China sides with Russia, the combined force will be the most powerful in the world.


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## BoQ77

*China to assist Ukraine with $3.6 billion for energy projects*

Feb. 26, 2015, 4:41 p.m. 





Energy Minister Volodymyr Demchyshyn announced a $3.6 billion Chinese loan for Ukraine's energy sector.
© Volodymyr Petrov

*China is ready to lend Ukraine $3.6 billion for various projects in its energy sector that will reduce the country's dependence on the Russian gas,* Energy Minister Volodymyr Demchyshyn said on Feb. 23.

However, there was no immediate confirmation from the China side or any details about the loan.

"Our delegation just arrived from China where we met with representatives of the Ministry of Commerce and the China Development Bank," Demchyshyn said, according to Zerkalo Nedeli newspaper, which broke the story on its website. "The representative of each organization affirmed the readiness to provide a loan for our projects."

Ihor Didenko, Ukraine’s deputy minister of energy, said that the China Development Bank and Ukraine’s Naftogaz signed a $3.6 billion credit line contract. Didenko said that the portfolio includes such projects as coal gasification in Odessa’s Port Plant, nine thermal power stations, the Poland-Ukraine gas pipe interconnector, environmentally friendly equipment and upgrades in Ukrgazvydobuvannya, an oil and gas company.

“Even all of the projects did not come up to $3.6 billion… We calculated it is roughly around $2.5 billion,” Didenko told the Kyiv Post.

Additional projects to fill in the remaining $1 billion are still on the table for consideration.

“We now need to start the real processes with the Chinese. And the quickest one could be drilling equipment,” explained Didenko.

Whether China’s assistance will make Ukraine to be more independent from Russia depends on what the money will be used for, experts say.

Yuriy Korolchuk, an energy expert, said that two years ago China was ready to provide a loan for building the coal gasification plant and is still willing to do so. Gasification of coal is one of the alternatives to buying the blue fuel from Russia, whose aggression brought war to Ukraine's coal-rich Donbas region.

However, Dragon Capital's energy analyst Denys Sakva said that given Russia's war against eastern Ukraine, the region from which most of Ukraine's coal is extracted, there's little sense in importing coal to run such plants. "We will have to import significant volumes of coal from Russia and so no energy supply diversification will be achieved."

Last year, Ukraine consumed 42 billion cubic meters of gas, while only a half of it was produced domestically and 14.5 billion cubic meters purchased from Russia's Gazprom, two times down year-on-year.

Now, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk takes pride that Ukraine buys more gas from the European Union, through a reverse flow, than from Russia.

Coal-based electricity producers used to cover 48 percent of the nation's needs in electric power, while the nuclear plants covered 46 percent.

Since the war in the Donbas started, Ukraine can't get the coal from Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts – it is still being produced, but the railways for deliveries are ruined. Obviously, the separatists are not a reliable partner for any business deals, though they've been saying they can supply coal to the Ukrainian power plants.

Now, Ukraine has to import coal from abroad, while it also considers an option of importing the electricity. Previously, it used to export both, coal and electric power.


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## beijingwalker

I mean "if", China hasn't decide if the country should fully be on Russia's side.


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## Place Of Space

beijingwalker said:


> I mean "if", China hasn't decide if the country should fully be on Russia's side.



With no doubt, in my opinion, our govt should fully be on Russia's side. What ever to say, Russia helped China a lot in 1950's. We would be clear it isn't Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia vs west Europe & America.

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## TaiShang

China does not take side, but simply reiterates its foreign policy doctrine -- that the US/NATO should stop messing around in Ukraine, and that the root cause of the Ukrainian crisis is NATO's expansion at the cost of Russia's vital national interests. 

China does not wish Russia to be punished and weakened at the hands of a concerted NATO onslaught. If, in the very beginning, there was not NATO/West intervention, neither the Ukrainian situation would not have been how it is today. This is China's message. So, in a way, China asks the West to stop further worsening the situation for their own ultimate goals, hiding in the meanwhile behind the self-righteous pretexts.

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## beijingwalker

*Russia and China together: Europe pays price for America’s strategy*
*Thursday, February 5th, 2015

Russia and China together: Europe pays price for America’s strategy | World Finance






*

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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

A pragmatic analysis. Europe should think of its own interest instead of playing second fiddle to USA. If Europe follows USA it surely will be a loser in this game of geopolitics.

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## beijingwalker

Same is for Japan, Japan doesn't have independent foreign policies, whatever US does, Japan has to follow suit, even it means huge damage to Japan's own interest. the fast deterioration in relations between Japan and Russia is a typical example, Japan has to sacrifice its own interest to cater to America's.

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## Viet

rubbish
can anyone cite with examples what price europe pays?

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## Srinivas

Why hide behind Russia to confront USA?

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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> rubbish
> can anyone cite with examples what price europe pays?


Listen again, it's in the video.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Srinivas said:


> Why hide behind Russia to confront USA?


 
Lol Indian logic so when US cosy with Philippine over China issue, should we saiy ask why hide behind Philippine to confront China? LMAO. China-Russia are both equal well balance equal partners unlike other nations with have superior and subordinated relations only USA lecture others to do things and not the other way around.

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> Listen again, it's in the video.


I hear only bla bla bla...
can you cite with examples what price germany pays?


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## beijingwalker

It's Russia who needs China more under current situation



Viet said:


> I hear only bla bla bla...
> can you cite with examples what price germany pays?



Tons of sources, check them yourself.

Google

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## Srinivas

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol Indian logic so when US cosy with Philippine over China issue, should we saiy ask why hide behind Philippine to confront China? LMAO. China-Russia are both equal well balance equal partners unlike other nations with have superior and subordinated relations only USA lecture others to do things and not the other way around.



I am not here to talk on behalf of USA, But two or three days back a P8 posiedon was flown above SCS. 

Regarding Indo-US relationship it is all about common interests. China for most of the time is with USA, India on the other hand faced USA and opposed USA at UN.


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## boomslang

That's the best thing for the West. China and Russia will NEVER trust each other and eventually will be beating each others brains out. I can't wait !!


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Viet said:


> I hear only bla bla bla...
> can you cite with examples what price germany pays?


 
What about Gemany export to Russia...Increase or decrease with the sanction? while other fill the vacuum.

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## beijingwalker

boomslang said:


> That's the best thing for the West. China and Russia will NEVER trust each other and eventually will be beating each others brains out. I can't wait !!



too bad that you can't wait, it will be a very longgggg wait

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> Tons of sources, check them yourself.
> 
> Google


why not xinhua or global times?
google belongs to the US imperialists.


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## boomslang

beijingwalker said:


> too bad that you can't wait, it will be a very longgggg wait



With Putin the kook, probably not.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

boomslang said:


> That's the best thing for the West. China and Russia will NEVER trust each other and eventually will be beating each others brains out. I can't wait !!


 
There is no permanent friends only permanent interest, but for now we're just good enough to defend our commun interest...and we dont need the cristall ball to predict the future

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## Viet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What about Gemany export to Russia...Increase or decrease with the sanction? while other fill the vacuum.


sure, german companies lose export revenues. but the loss is little if comparing to the overall export bilance. but that is a side of the coin. economics wise.

the german government has no choice to support the sanctions against russia, otherwise the political cost is much higher. thus it is in germany´s core interest in this matter to go against russia, not only because of america. things are complicated, not black and white. I don´t think you understand it. if germany remains passive, they will lose influence on eastern europe. that weighs more than russia.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Srinivas said:


> I am not here to talk on behalf of USA, But two or three days back a P8 posiedon was flown above SCS.
> 
> Regarding Indo-US relationship it is all about common interests. China for most of the time is with USA, India on the other hand faced USA and opposed USA at UN.


 
Sound Iike we care much about this P8, the more it expose itself for us, the more we can gather intelligent and find the way to counter it....we're not going to be scare the shit out because American bring new toy into SCS.

Sure Indo-US has common interest, same for China-Russia's common interest so don't said why hide behind Russia when facing USA. Most the time it was US that hide behind Japan, Philippine and other south Asian countries when facing China...LMAO.

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## boomslang

beijingwalker said:


> During the past half a century, China beat US...



I missed that one, chief. But in the last 70 years, Japan crushed China, big time.


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## beijingwalker

boomslang said:


> I missed that one, chief. But in the last 70 years, Japan crushed China, big time.


Yes, they signed the paper and surrendered, that's why we are in UNSC, thank you for reminding.

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> During the past half a century, China beat US, Russia, India , Vietnam..China is with herself always.


you brag too much. the only war you won is the little war against india. 
was there a little country in europe, portugal, that joined the gangbxxx against china some time ago?


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## boomslang

beijingwalker said:


> Yes, they signed the paper and surrendered, that's why we are in UNSC, thank you for reminding.




Nanking.


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## beijingwalker

boomslang said:


> Nanking.


They won some battles, and we won the war.

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## Viet

boomslang said:


> I missed that one, chief. But in the last 70 years, Japan crushed China, big time.


bro I bet japan can beat chinese clowns anytime again.



beijingwalker said:


> Cause you may not understand Chinese


there is an english version of xinhua. not aware of?

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

boomslang said:


> I missed that one, chief. But in the last 70 years, Japan crushed China, big time.


 
Lol what about Americans, you guys are not mean to be warriors, you had not chance to fight a long attrition war against Japan as China did in WW2, if not because you cowardly nuked Japan for a quick end, you think America still exist until today?.

here Chinese famous endurance fighting and the war attrition slogan ->楚虽三户，亡秦必楚

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## boomslang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol what about Americans, you guys are not mean to be warriors, you had not chance to fight a long attrition war against Japan as China did in WW2, if not because you cowardly nuked Japan for a quick end, you think America still exist until today?.
> 
> here Chinese famous endurance fighting and the war attrition slogan ->楚虽三户，亡秦必楚



Why die when you don't have to ? It's stupid. Like China wouldn't have nuked Japan if they could have.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

boomslang said:


> Why die when you don't have to ? It's stupid. Like China wouldn't have nuked Japan if they could have.


 
If that's the case why not nuke on every conflict so ZERO american wont die...LMAO, the conclusion is simple US used nuke face an imminent defeat under stubborn Japanese resistance and agressive offense in WW2. Without the Nuke the fate of America will be even more miserable than China.

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## boomslang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> If that's the case why not nuke on every conflict so ZERO american wont die...LMAO, the conclusion is simple US used nuke face an imminent defeat under stubborn Japanese resistance and agressive offense in WW2. Without the Nuke the fate of America will be even more miserable than China.




WTF do they teach you guys in school over there ? Holy F*ck !!


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## ChineseTiger1986

Viet said:


> bro I bet japan can beat chinese clowns anytime again.



Japan can only bully the Chinese from ROC, while against the Chinese from PRC, they are completely chickened.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

boomslang said:


> WTF do they teach you guys in school over there ? Holy F*ck !!


 
it's just a simple deduction, you don't need to have the Fcking PHD for that. You American just relied on superior technology edge to win the war, you wouldn't dare ot pick up an fair and square fight. the last times you guys have tried was in Korea and Vietnam wars despite the fact that US still had overwhelming firing power, still you were pilling up the mountain of body bags for your soldiers ready to ship back home. And that why Americans are so scare of losing technological edges over their adversaries...you guys are simply not meant to be a soldiers

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## Jlaw

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> it's just a simple deduction, you don't need to have the Fcking PHD for that. You American just relied on superior technology edge to win the war, you wouldn't dare ot pick up an fair and square fight. the last times you guys have tried was in Korea and Vietnam wars despite the fact that US still had overwhelming firing power, still you were pilling up the mountain of body bags for your soldiers ready to ship back home. And that why Americans are so scare of losing technological edges over their adversaries...you guys are simply not meant to be a soldiers


Bro, all's fair in war. I have to agree with Boom on this one. I'm actually against rules for war. If someone is trying to kill you i will do everything to kill him.

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## boomslang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> ... You American just relied on superior technology edge to win the war, you wouldn't dare ot pick up an fair and square fight....



Are you TRYING to sound stupid ? 'Fair and square' ? You are joking, right ?


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## BoQ77

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol what about Americans, you guys are not mean to be warriors, you had not chance to fight a long attrition war against Japan as China did in WW2, if not because you cowardly nuked Japan for a quick end, you think America still exist until today?.
> 
> here Chinese famous endurance fighting and the war attrition slogan ->楚虽三户，亡秦必楚



You downplayed the role of American in WW2 to China, because they want the winner is R.O.C ?
That's not good. Without American in Asia, Japan only fear for Soviet Union.

Although American later support R.O.V and R.O.K but Vietnamese communists never lower their role in WW2. That's the big difference oppose to your words.


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## DrawingDead

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> it's just a simple deduction, you don't need to have the Fcking PHD for that. You American just relied on superior technology edge to win the war, you wouldn't dare ot pick up an fair and square fight. the last times you guys have tried was in Korea and Vietnam wars despite the fact that US still had overwhelming firing power, still you were pilling up the mountain of body bags for your soldiers ready to ship back home. And that why Americans are so scare of losing technological edges over their adversaries...you guys are simply not meant to be a soldiers



When was the last time China fought and won a real war? Your big accomplishments are tickle fights with Vietnam and India. By the way, we worked to get that technological edge. We didn't steal other people's tech like some countries. We're not from a cannon-fodder culture so we do everything in our power to give our soldiers the best possible gear to support their efforts. For the record, we're more soldiers than you'll ever be. We've fought and won all kinds of war all over the world. All you've done run over your own people with tanks.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Jlaw said:


> Bro, all's fair in war. I have to agree with Boom on this one. I'm actually against rules for war. If someone is trying to kill you i will do everything to kill him.


 
I agree all war is based on deception sure Americans can take advantage of their military superiority, but when they are bragging on how China lost to Japan, I just want to school them that they were not better than us in WW2 except to rely on Nukes to for easy way out.



boomslang said:


> Are you TRYING to sound stupid ? 'Fair and square' ? You are joking, right ?


 
It's not stupid, I just show you than Americans nothing without technological superiority. One day you guys will learn to fight in fair and square, your American exceptionionalism won't last for eternity. 



BoQ77 said:


> You downplayed the role of American in WW2 to China, because they want the winner is R.O.C ?
> That's not good. Without American in Asia, Japan only fear for Soviet Union.
> 
> Although American later support R.O.V and R.O.K but Vietnamese communists never lower their role in WW2. That's the big difference oppose to your words.


 
I have not downplay American's role in WW2, I merely point out that they were meatballs as everyone else if they didn't cowardly use NUKEs against Japan.

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## BoQ77

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I have not downplay American's role in WW2, I merely point out that they were meatballs as everyone else if they didn't cowardly use NUKEs against Japan.



I would not call them as meatballs after they corner the Japanese army and save your own people.
But yes, using or ready to use the nuclear bombs is the bad habit, that unluckily, most of big countries are following.


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## ChineseTiger1986

boomslang said:


> That's the best thing for the West. China and Russia will NEVER trust each other and eventually will be beating each others brains out. I can't wait !!



Well, when against USA, China and Russia can fully trust each other because they know if one goes down, then the other one will be the next.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

DrawingDead said:


> When was the last time China fought and won a real war? Your big accomplishments are tickle fights with Vietnam and India. By the way, we worked to get that technological edge. We didn't steal other people's tech like some countries. We're not from a cannon-fodder culture so we do everything in our power to give our soldiers the best possible gear to support their efforts. For the record, we're more soldiers than you'll ever be. We've fought and won all kinds of war all over the world. All you've done run over your own people with tanks.


 
Sure you don't steal other tech but you steal info about other people's tech because you're scare of being excede. You don't have cannon-folder culture that why you rely on nukes that what I tried to get at...you Americans are not meant to be warrior. You fought and won all kinds of war not because your soldiers are capable to fight but thanks to the technologies, if you equiped and gear up monkey with the same tech as Americans, they could also win the war as well.

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## DrawingDead

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol what about Americans, you guys are not mean to be warriors, you had not chance to fight a long attrition war against Japan as China did in WW2, if not because you cowardly nuked Japan for a quick end, you think America still exist until today?.
> 
> here Chinese famous endurance fighting and the war attrition slogan ->楚虽三户，亡秦必楚



“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.” 
― George S. Patton Jr.

Like I said in my earlier post. You guys are from a cannon-fodder culture. We're not. We fight hard and fight to win. We don't just throw millions of bodies in and hope that the other side gets tired of killing you and leaves. There's a very big difference in our philosophies on war. We value the lives of our men in uniform, you look at them as disposable commodities.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

BoQ77 said:


> I would not call them as meatballs after they corner the Japanese army and save your own people.
> But yes, using or ready to use the nuclear bombs is the bad habit, that unluckily, most of big countries are following.


 
At least you're agree with me about cowards are alway tried to find an easy way out and Nuke is coward's hope.

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## DrawingDead

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Sure you don't steal other tech but you steal info about other people's tech because you're scare of being excede. You don't have cannon-folder culture that why you rely on nukes that what I tried to get at...you Americans are not meant to be warrior. You fought and won all kinds of war not because your soldiers are capable to fight but thanks to the technologies, if you equiped and gear up monkey with the same tech as Americans, they could also win the war as well.



You never answered my question on when was the last time you fought and won a real war.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

DrawingDead said:


> “The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.”
> ― George S. Patton Jr.
> 
> Like I said in my earlier post. You guys are from a cannon-fodder culture. We're not. We fight hard and fight to win. We don't just throw millions of bodies in and hope that the other side gets tired of killing you and leaves. There's a very big difference in our philosophies on war. We value the lives of our men in uniform, you look at them as disposable commodities.


 
If that's case why you still need soldiers for when your Nukes is enough to wipe out the entire earth?? any no-brainer civilians know how to press the "BUTTONs" and by doing that you have Zero casualty...and your enemies will sure be wiped out systematically.



DrawingDead said:


> You never answered my question on when was the last time you fought and won a real war.


 
We Chinese have fought war for over millenium and we prevail is that good enought to answer your question?

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## beijingwalker

Combined power of China and Russia can kill America many times. simple as that.

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## DrawingDead

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> If that's case why you still need soldiers for when your Nukes is enough to wipe out the entire earth?? any no-brainer civilians know how to press the "BUTTONs" and by doing that you have Zero casualty...and your enemies will sure be wiped out systematically.



Well, our friends live close by. So we can't just nuke all our enemies without affecting them. 



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> We Chinese have fought war for over millenium and we prevail is that good enought to answer your question?



Yeah but just give me one example of a war you fought and won that wasn't inside your own borders against your own people. Now I'm just really curious.



beijingwalker said:


> Combined power of China and Russia can kill America many times. simple as that.



And the US by itself has enough firepower to destroy both China and Russia. What's your point?

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## BoQ77

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> If that's case why you still need soldiers for when your Nukes is enough to wipe out the entire earth?? any no-brainer civilians know how to press the "BUTTONs" and by doing that you have Zero casualty...and your enemies will sure be wiped out systematically.
> 
> 
> 
> We Chinese have fought war for over millenium and we prevail is that good enought to answer your question?



You forget that It's American who deployed their soldiers worldwide. They could do and did it.


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## xunzi

DrawingDead said:


> Well, our friends live close by. So we can't just nuke all our enemies without affecting them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but just give me one example of a war you fought and won that wasn't inside your own borders against your own people. Now I'm just really curious.
> 
> 
> 
> And the US by itself has enough firepower to destroy both China and Russia. What's your point?


What do you think of our performance in the Korean War? that was outside our border.

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## KAL-EL

DrawingDead said:


> And the US by itself has enough firepower to destroy both China and Russia. What's your point?



That's the thing some of these keyboard warriors seem to forget.

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## xunzi

KAL-EL said:


> That's the thing some of these keyboard warriors seem to forget.


Both China and Russia have massive underground tunnel to survive a nuclear blast.

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## KAL-EL

xunzi said:


> Both China and Russia have massive underground tunnel to survive a nuclear blast.



not very much time for a lot of people to get to 'tunnels' when the missiles start flying. millions upon million will still be killed on all sides. This is real world, not video games were talking about my friend. Lets be realistic.


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## xunzi

KAL-EL said:


> not very much time for a lot of people to get to 'tunnels' when the missiles start flying. millions upon million will still be killed on all sides. This is real world, not video games were talking about my friend. Lets be realistic.


We have a NFS policy.

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## KAL-EL

xunzi said:


> We have a NFS policy.



Ok Well lets hope there is no nuclear war ever. As there will be no winners on any side. I would like to live a long life. I wish a long life to you as well.

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## DrawingDead

xunzi said:


> What do you think of our performance in the Korean War? that was outside our border.



Let's see. You're right next door, you send 1.3 million troops and you lose 150k troops and the war ends in a stalemate with North Korea losing about 1500 square miles of territory. You tell me how you think you did.

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## xunzi

DrawingDead said:


> Let's see. You're right next door, you send 1.3 million troops and you lose 150k troops and the war ends in a stalemate with North Korea loosing about 1500 square miles of territory. You tell me how you think you did.


We fought you with old WWI relic. It was a stalemate because we lack air power and logistics, thank again to our technological deficiency. We made up technological disadvantage, inability to produce advance weapon with smart strategy and man power. Not many countries can claim to fight the US and her UN allies to a stalemate in an open battle unlike the VC that love to hide in tunnel to worn you out. Show respect, friend.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

DrawingDead said:


> Yeah but just give me one example of a war you fought and won that wasn't inside your own borders against your own people. Now I'm just really curious.


 
How relevant is this? Mongols won over hundred Battles through out Eurorasia, did that made Mongolia a great empire Today, America is more less on the same situation and will share the same fate. As for China we dont need to win any war or battle to get similar result as US which made what China today, a second economic power in the world without the need to bleed ourself.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill....Tsun Zi

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## DrawingDead

xunzi said:


> We fought you with old WWI relic. It was a stalemate because we lack air power and logistics, thank again to our technological deficiency. We made up technological disadvantage, inability to produce advance weapon with smart strategy and man power. Not many countries can claim to fight the US and her UN allies to a stalemate in an open battle unlike the VC that love to hide in tunnel to worn you out. Show respect, friend.



I have the utmost respect for the men who fought and died but absolutely no respect for a leadership that sends a million plus poorly equipped men into battle to get killed. Like I said before, cannon-fodder culture. And for what? To make sure the Kim family is in power? Pathetic.

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## xunzi

DrawingDead said:


> I have the utmost respect for the men who fought and died but absolutely no respect for a leadership that sends a million plus poorly equipped men into battle to get killed. Like I said before, cannon-fodder culture. And for what? To make sure the Kim family is in power? Pathetic.


It is the same as you trying to keep dictators like those in Middle east in power. It is called national interest. National interest triumph over moral obligation, wouldn't you agree, my lovely American friend?

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## DrawingDead

xunzi said:


> It is the same as you trying to keep dictators like those in Middle east in power. It is called national interest. National interest triumph over moral obligation, wouldn't you agree, my lovely American friend?



Absolutely. National interest triumphs over all other obligations. However, China didn't have a national interest in Korea. The communists already controlled everything down to the 38th parallel. You fought for nothing more than Mao's wish to buddy up with Stalin.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> How relevant is this? Mongols won over hundred Battles through out Eurorasia, did that made Mongolia a great empire Today, America is more less on the same situation and will share the same fate. As for China we dont need to win any war or battle to get similar result as US which made what China today, a second economic power in the world without the need to bleed ourself.
> 
> For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill....Tsun Zi



No, that's not how our story ends. We're nothing like the Mongols. They barely left an imprint on this world. They contributed nothing and are remembered for nothing other a brief period in history when they had a good run. We, on the other hand, have changed the world around us. We've left a indelible mark on this earth. Time may destroy us like it does everything. But as long as humanity exists, they'll remember us and marvel at how we came out of nowhere and changed the course of history.

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## Steakhouse

The fact China survived on 2 hostile front by the 2 superpower Soviet Union and the US in the late 50 till Soviet Union collapsed that proved China strategic maneuver at it optimal level in dealing with the geopolitic at ever changing condition. China will never let any great opportunity miss, when there is a chance to further China interest, China will turn foe into friend or friend into foe that all depend on where China interest lie.

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## TaiShang

Russia Invites China to Explore Arctic, Siberian Oil and Gas Fields / Sputnik International

18:12 28.02.2015

*Russia is strengthening its energy ties with China, involving it in high-profitable gas and oil exploration projects.*

Ekaterina Blinova — Russia is strengthening its energy ties with China, planning to involve Chinese investors in high-profitable oil and gas exploration projects.

Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich told journalists Beijing is welcome to enter both new and existing exploration projects, adding that Russia can provide its Eastern partner with controlling share, excluding shelf exploration projects.

*The Deputy Prime Minister pointed out that Beijing has not yet requested participation in strategic field exploration, stressing that it is currently working under a 50/50 business partnership agreement with Russia. However, according to Dvorkovich, the government is ready to consider such requests, since there are no political obstacles in the way of Russo-Chinese partnership in the field. He elaborated though that the exception is made for shelf exploration activities: Moscow would offer Beijing to join these projects as a minority shareholder.*





Russia’s Exploration Work in Arctic Almost Unaffected by Oil Price Slump

Meanwhile Russia's Rosneft oil company along with its Chinese counterparts are currently planning to jointly explore for oil in Russia's Arctic fields.

*Rosneft yet to conclude official agreements with its partners, however, it has already announced that China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC), China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) and Sinopec voiced their interest in exploration of Arctic reserves. Experts suggest that China's investors could receive a 33.3 percent share, similar to that of Statoil, Eni and ExxonMobil, which have left the project due to anti-Russian sanctions. It should be noted that American energy giant ExxonMobil said that US and EU sanctions against Russia cost the company $1 billion last year.*

Earlier, in November 2014, Rosneft singed a framework agreement with CNPC, providing it with a 10 percent share in Russia's largest Vankorskoye field development project. Vankorskoye oil production amounts to 11 percent of oil output of Rosneft and about 4 percent of overall oil extraction in Russia.





Russia's Rosneft to Invest $500Bln in Arctic Exploration Over 25 Years

According to some estimates, the field reserves contain almost 500 million tons of crude oil and its condensate. Experts speculate that the Russo-Chinese deal's cost could exceed $1.5 billion.

In addition, China bought a 20 percent share in the Yamal-SPG project together with Novatek (60 percent) and Total (20 percent). The unique project aims to explore and develop the Yuzhno Tambeiskiy field in Yamal constructing a plant for liquefied natural gas (LNG) production. Yamal-SPG's annual output is estimated at about 16.5 million of tons of LNG as well as 1 million ton of gas condensate. Reports say that the Chinese company paid $425 million for its share, the similar sum of money the French Total earlier paid.

Russia intends to expand its cooperation with China, experts note, pointing to the prospects of joint Russo-China's exploration of vast natural resources of Eastern and North-Western Siberia.

***

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## JSCh

From der spiegel,


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## Viet

xunzi said:


> What do you think of our performance in the Korean War? that was outside our border.


your pilots sucked. the US airforce shot down your jets like chicken.



xunzi said:


> Both China and Russia have massive underground tunnel to survive a nuclear blast.


can you tell me how many chinese would have places in such shelters and how long could they survive on the surface after nuclear blasts?


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## beijingwalker

Viet said:


> your pilots sucked. the US airforce shot down your jets like chicken.
> 
> 
> can you tell me how many chinese would have places in such shelters and how long could they survive on the surface after nuclear blasts?



Better than Vietnamese pilots. lol US dropped more bombs in Vietnam than it did during the WWII, even today still many Vietnamese die from those bombs. and if Russia and US go nuclear, I agree that bunkers are uesless, everyone dies on this planet.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

DrawingDead said:


> No, that's not how our story ends. We're nothing like the Mongols. They barely left an imprint on this world. They contributed nothing and are remembered for nothing other a brief period in history when they had a good run. We, on the other hand, have changed the world around us. We've left a indelible mark on this earth. Time may destroy us like it does everything. But as long as humanity exists, they'll remember us and marvel at how we came out of nowhere and changed the course of history.


 
And how relevant is this? the world might notice American's legacy achievement but most importantly to remember on how they bleeded this earth from the 20 and 21st centuries with wars.



Steakhouse said:


> The fact China survived on 2 hostile front by the 2 superpower Soviet Union and the US in the late 50 till Soviet Union collapsed that proved China strategic maneuver at it optimal level in dealing with the geopolitic at ever changing condition. China will never let any great opportunity miss, when there is a chance to further China interest, China will turn foe into friend or friend into foe that all depend on where China interest lie.


 
China foreign policy aimed survibility throughout our history, ultimately we want to prevail from the chaostic time regardless of how formadable our adversaries are..that what newbie such US will never understand, they only rely on military strenght as the mongols to achieve a short time gain and will become like them.

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## jhungary

I never understand why the need to argue with Chinese Ultra Nationalist...

Honestly, being a soldier myself, I have no problem people precive me as a weak minded individual who cannot fight a war without technological advantage, in fact, I perfer that way

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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> Better than Vietnamese pilots. lol US dropped more bombs in Vietnam than it did during the WWII, even today still many Vietnamese die from those bombs. and if Russia and US go nuclear, I agree that bunkers are uesless, everyone dies on this planet.


I doubt you are better vietnam. forget US pilots.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> *I never understand why the need to argue with Chinese Ultra Nationalist...*
> 
> Honestly, being a soldier myself, I have no problem people precive me as a weak minded individual who cannot fight a war without technological advantage, in fact, I perfer that way


 
 lol is how your earn your title as "*military professional*"..LMAO

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## beijingwalker

*Wang Hai* (Chinese: 王海), (January 19, 1926- ) is a Chinese ace pilot of the 3rd Fighter Aviation Division during theKorean War (1950–1953). During the war, he shot down or damaged 9 American aircraft, with his own air group scoring 29. The MiG fighter he flew is exhibited in the Military Museum in Beijing.

Chinese air force

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## jhungary

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> lol is how your earn your title as "*military professional*"..LMAO



no, i bribe it so i can leave negative rating to Chinese Ultra nationalist..


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> no, i bribe it so i can leave negative rating to Chinese Ultra nationalist..


 
LOL... and how you rate me???

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## Cossack25A1

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol Indian logic so when US cosy with Philippine over China issue, should we saiy ask why hide behind Philippine to confront China? LMAO. China-Russia are both equal well balance equal partners unlike other nations with have superior and subordinated relations only USA lecture others to do things and not the other way around.



And again we got dragged into this topic when we are not bothering to reply here.


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## beijingwalker

Ace pilots need a lot of tough training, just like Olympic champions needs tough training, China trained a lot of Olympic champions, we use the same way to train our pilots. as to Vietnam... see how they perform in the Olympics and you could get a general idea of that country's training programs.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Cossack25A1 said:


> And again we got dragged into this topic when we are not bothering to reply here.


 
Sorry for using Philippine as reference, I ask you to accept my apology, I should have chose Vietnam as reference


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## Viet

beijingwalker said:


> *Wang Hai* (Chinese: 王海), (January 19, 1926- ) is a Chinese ace pilot of the 3rd Fighter Aviation Division during theKorean War (1950–1953). During the war, he shot down or damaged 9 American aircraft, with his own air group scoring 29. The MiG fighter he flew is exhibited in the Military Museum in Beijing.
> 
> Chinese air force


LOL I love cinema, too, especially nice films such as Top Gun with Tom Cruise. do you know that the US founded the Top Gun school to train US pilots after they noticed the north vietnamese pilots posed a serious threat to their US pilots in Vietnam war?


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## Beast

Viet said:


> rubbish
> can anyone cite with examples what price europe pays?


 Cut off gas from Russia and they need to pay higher gas price in such fragile market

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## xunzi

DrawingDead said:


> Absolutely. National interest triumphs over all other obligations. However, China didn't have a national interest in Korea. The communists already controlled everything down to the 38th parallel. You fought for nothing more than Mao's wish to buddy up with Stalin.


Our national interest in North Korea is beyond monetary term.



Viet said:


> your pilots sucked. the US airforce shot down your jets like chicken.


Go learn about the Korean War, kid. LOL Here is the portion of the aerial warfare.

*Aerial warfare*
Further information: MiG Alley, USAF Units and Aircraft of the Korean War and Korean People's Air Force
For the initial months of the war, the P-80 Shooting Star, F9F Panther, and other jets under the UN flag dominated North Korea's prop-driven air force of Soviet Yakovlev Yak-9 and Lavochkin La-9s. The balance would shift with the arrival of the swept-wing Soviet MiG-15.[270][271]

The Chinese intervention in late October 1950 bolstered the Korean People's Air Force (KPAF) of North Korea with the MiG-15, one of the world's most advanced jet fighters.[270] The fast, heavily armed MiG outflew first-generation UN jets such as the F-80 (United States Air Force) and Gloster Meteors (Royal Australian Air Force) posing a real threat to B-29 Superfortress bombers even under fighter escort. Fearful of confronting the United States directly, the Soviet Union denied involvement of their personnel in anything other than an advisory role, but air combat quickly resulted in Soviet pilots dropping their code signals and speaking over the wireless in Russian. This known direct Soviet participation was a _casus belli_ that the UN Command deliberately overlooked, lest the war for the Korean peninsula expand to include the Soviet Union, and potentially escalate into atomic warfare.[270]




A B-29 Superfortress bomber unloading its bombs.
The USAF countered the MiG-15 by sending over three squadrons of its most capable fighter, the F-86 Sabre. These arrived in December 1950.[272][273] The MiG was designed as a bomber interceptor. It had a very high service ceiling—50,000 feet (15,000 m) and carried very heavy weaponry: one 37 mm cannon and two 23 mm cannons. They were fast enough to dive past the fighter escort of P-80 Shooting Starsand F9F Panthers and could reach and destroy the U.S. heavy bombers. B-29 losses could not be avoided, and the Air Force was forced to switch from a daylight bombing campaign to the necessarily less accurate nighttime bombing of targets. The MiGs were countered by the F-86 Sabres. They had a ceiling of 42,000 feet (13,000 m) and were armed with six .50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns, which were range adjusted by radar gunsights. If coming in at higher altitude the advantage of engaging or not went to the MiG. Once in a level flight dogfight, both swept-wing designs attained comparable maximum speeds of around 660 mph (1,100 km/h). The MiG climbed faster, but the Sabre turned and dived better.[274]

In summer and autumn 1951, the outnumbered Sabres of the USAF's 4th Fighter Interceptor Wing—only 44 at one point—continued seeking battle in MiG Alley, where the Yalu River marks the Chinese border, against Chinese and North Korean air forces capable of deploying some 500 aircraft. Following Colonel Harrison Thyng's communication with the Pentagon, the 51st Fighter-Interceptor Wing finally reinforced the beleaguered 4th Wing in December 1951; for the next year-and-a-half stretch of the war, aerial warfare continued.[275] On the ground the battle lines had stabilized by early 1951 and a static front developed, which changed little till the armistice was signed in 1953.[276]




A US Navy Sikorsky HO4S flying near the USS _Sicily_
UN forces held air superiority in the Korean theater from the outset, but this was challenged by the arrival of the Soviet MiGs. It was regained in 1951 and was maintained for the duration of the conflict. This was decisive for the UN: first, for attacking into the peninsular north, and second, for resisting the Chinese intervention.[264] North Korea and China also had jet-powered air forces. Their limited training and experience made it strategically untenable to lose them against the better-trained UN air forces. Thus, the United States and the Soviet Union fed matériel to the war, battling by proxy and finding themselves virtually matched, technologically, when the USAF deployed the F-86F against the MiG-15 late in 1952.

Unlike the Vietnam War, in which the Soviet Union only officially sent "advisers," in the Korean aerial war Soviet forces participated via the 64th Airborne Corps. 1,106 enemy airplanes were officially downed by the Soviet pilots, 52 of whom got ace status. The Soviet system of confirming air kills erred on the conservative side that is the pilot's words had to be corroborated and enemy aircraft falling into the sea were not counted, the number might exceed 1,106.[277][_citation needed_]

After the war, and to the present day, the USAF reports an F-86 Sabre kill ratio in excess of 10:1, with 792 MiG-15s and 108 other aircraft shot down by Sabres, and 78 Sabres lost to enemy fire.[278][279] The Soviet Air Force reported some 1,100 air-to-air victories and 335 MiG combat losses, while China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) reported 231 combat losses, mostly MiG-15s, and 168 other aircraft lost. The KPAF reported no data, but the UN Command estimates some 200 KPAF aircraft lost in the war's first stage, and 70 additional aircraft after the Chinese intervention. The USAF disputes Soviet and Chinese claims of 650 and 211 downed F-86s, respectively. However, one unconfirmed source[_citation needed_] claims that the U.S. Air Force has more recently cited 230 losses out of 674 F-86s deployed to Korea.[274]

The Korean War was the first war in which jet aircraft played the central role in air combat. Once-formidable fighters such as the P-51 Mustang, F4U Corsair, and Hawker Sea Fury[280]—all piston-engined, propeller-driven, and designed during World War II—relinquished their air-superiority roles to a new generation of faster, jet-powered fighters arriving in the theater.

The Korean War marked a major milestone not only for fixed-wing aircraft, but also for rotorcraft, featuring the first large-scale deployment of helicopters for medical evacuation (medevac).[281] In 1944–1945, during the Second World War, the YR-4 helicopter saw limited ambulance duty, but in Korea, where rough terrain trumped the jeep as a speedy medevac vehicle,[282] helicopters like the Sikorsky H-19 helped reduce fatal casualties to a dramatic degree when combined with complementary medical innovations such as Mobile Army Surgical Hospitals.[283] The limitations of jet aircraft for close air support highlighted the helicopter's potential in the role, leading to development of the AH-1 Cobraand other helicopter gunships used in the Vietnam War (1965–75).[281]

Notice we are weak relatively to the world power in those era. We don't produce any jet nor we have much experience consider we were in a civil war. Yet despite all odd, we manage to push back US's led UN back when we intervene. Land war: biggest winner: China, Sea: US, Air: Draw.



> can you tell me how many chinese would have places in such shelters and how long could they survive on the surface after nuclear blasts?


Against a country of Vietnam, I am confident we will last longer. The Cuchi tunnel is nothing compare to the thousand of miles underground network we built. LOL

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## NiceGuy

beijingwalker said:


> *Wang Hai* (Chinese: 王海), (January 19, 1926- ) is a Chinese ace pilot of the 3rd Fighter Aviation Division during theKorean War (1950–1953). During the war, he shot down or damaged 9 American aircraft, with his own air group scoring 29. The MiG fighter he flew is exhibited in the Military Museum in Beijing.
> 
> Chinese air force


So, u guys only can brag abt Korean war when trying to ignore how bad your pilots were in TW conflict ??


> On September 22, 1958, the Sidewinder missile was used for the first time in air-to-air combat as* 32 Nationalist Chinese F-86s clashed with 100 Red Chinese MiGs* in a series of aerial engagements. Numerous MiGs were shot down by Sidewinders, the first "kills" to be scored by air-to-air missiles in combat.
> 
> Soon, the PRC was faced with a stalemate, the PLA's artillerymen had run out of artillery shells. The Red Chinese government announced a large decrease in bombardment levels on October 6.
> Second Taiwan Strait Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Not to mention to 1979 conflict when PLAF dare not take any air strike to VN due to its pilots sucked


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## TaiShang

*One Belt, One Road’ follows worldwide pattern of regional integration*
By John Ross






_Illustration: Liu Rui/GT_

One of the key recent policies launched by China is the "One Belt, One Road" initiative announced by President Xi Jinping. As this simultaneously combines both economic and diplomatic aspects, it provides an important part of the international context for discussion at the ongoing two sessions. But the strategic importance of the "One Belt, One Road" policy should not be seen as a short-term or specific tactical policy by China.

Globalization remains the overall trend in the world economy. But it is important to be clear that it is not an even or undifferentiated international process. In particular, geographical proximity continues to play a significant role in shaping economies.

Within the overall framework of rising world trade, it is striking that the development of international division of labor has now reached a point where the "classic" sized nation state, on a scale that dominated Europe in the 19th and most of the 20th centuries, and which exists in large parts of Asia, is too small by itself to constitute a sufficiently developed economic unit.

This trend itself creates globalization. But instead of a fully "equalized" global economy being created, in which geography does not play a significant role, there is instead an emerging division into "continental scale" economic units which are replacing "national" ones.

The US was the world's first continental scale economy. The USSR was the second, ultimately failed, continental scale economy, though it remains to be seen how much of the former USSR will be reintegrated in the Eurasian Economic Union.

China is, as with the US, in political terms a nation state but also history's third continental scale economy; India is the fourth continental economy, and if it succeeds in integrating itself fully, the EU will be the fifth continental economy.

It is also clear that to gain the advantages of international division of labor, international trade, and other factors, the most successful of these "continental economies" have a tendency to integrate themselves with surrounding regions even in cases where political union is not posed.

The US has therefore created very strong economic links with Mexico and Canada, formalized in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). The EU has progressively expanded from its original six-member West European nucleus to form an integrated European economic zone including 28 member states and several closely associated ones.

The willingness of smaller economies to create links with these larger "continental" scale economic hubs in turn reflects the fact that these smaller economies by themselves cannot achieve the scale of production required for the most efficient operation in a modern economy.

The "win-win" outcome is therefore that the continental-scale economic hub benefits from expanding further its scale of participation in global division of labor, while the smaller economies benefit from their increased links with a larger economy.

Isolation from such trends leaves smaller countries unable to benefit from the developing global division of labor, with negative consequences for their own growth. China has the advantage of being a "continental" scale economy, but for success even this requires economic integration with geographically surrounding economies. In turn, these smaller surrounding economies benefit from their relation with China's continental scale economy. This creates a win-win outcome even when there is no intention in Asia to follow the EU route of political integration. Equally there is no move toward political integration of Canada or Mexico with the US.

Countries in Southeast Asia similarly face important choices between the continental scale economy of China, which forms the economic center of the Asian region, and non-Asian states particularly the US. Some, such as the Philippines, currently attempt to resolve this through subordination to the US. Others, such as contemporary Indonesia, attempt to balance various trends through a "non-political" stance. Some, such as Thailand, have experienced internal differences on the issue.

China is in the fortunate political position that it faces no such choice. China's fundamental strategy for "national renewal" continues to be building up its own "continental" economy. But this, in turn, requires building mutually beneficial relations with its surrounding neighbors. It is clear from these reasons that the "One Belt, One Road" is not a short-term initiative but of major strategic significance for both China and its neighbors.

_The author is a senior fellow of the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies, Renmin University of China, and the former director of Economic and Business Policy of London._

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## Bussard Ramjet

BEIJING, March 13 -- China is confident about trade with Russia although a slump hasbeen a cause for concern in the past two months.

The decline was billed as a temporary fluctuation, not reflecting the overall trend by LingJi of China's Ministry of Commerce on Friday.

Trade between the two countries tumbled 30.6 percent year on year to 61.3 billion yuan(10 billion U.S. dollars) in January and February due to the state of the Russian economy,a depreciating ruble and changing demand in the two countries.

"Both countries are in a period of development and reform which will provide thecooperation and desire for collaboration to remain strong," Ling said. "A new stage oftrade will be brought about by favorable policies including the 'belt and road' initiatives."

Sino-Russia trade rose to a record high of 95.4 billion U.S. dollars in 2014.

China confident in trade with Russia despite slump - People's Daily Online


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## VALKRYIE

> Vietnam's Balancing Act Between Its Tricky Triangle of Interests ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 21:51 17.03.2015(updated 22:22 17.03.2015)
> Andrew Korybko
> 
> The American Angle
> 
> The US was served a harsh rebuke from Vietnam after it recently demanded that Hanoi cut its military ties with Moscow.
> 
> General Vincent Brooks, the commander of the US Army in the Pacific, demanded last week that Vietnam stop allowing Russia to use its territory to send refueling aircraft over the Pacific. These planes, Brooks alleged, were helping to refuel strategic bombers that have routinely been flying over Pacific international waters. Vietnam responded by harshly criticizing the US for interfering in its internal affairs, saying that Russia was a strategic partner and that it would not halt its cooperation in the military field.
> 
> The whole episode raised eyebrows among some who weren’t aware that Russia and Vietnam were currently enjoying such close relations in the first place, as well as those who questioned what interest the US has in Vietnam in the 21st century. All of this draws attention to the larger issue just beneath the surface, which is the triangle of interests that Vietnam is balancing between the US, Russia, and China. As its leadership’s actions seem to indicate, the country’s number one foreign policy priority is to stand independently strong from China, and it’s using its relationships with Washington and Moscow to achieve this.
> 
> The US is interested in Vietnam as an anchor for its Pivot to Asia policy, and it would like to one day formally return to the Cam Ranh Bay naval facility. American ships have already called port in Vietnam in the past for repairs and friendly visits, and President Bush even visited the country in 2006 to symbolize the rejuvenation of ties ever since the Vietnam War. Showing how far relations have progressed, the US beat the EU last year to become Vietnam’s largest export market, and it aims to weave Vietnam into the TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) web that it wants to build in the region. The economic vector is precisely what Washington seeks to strengthen in its ties with Hanoi in order to present itself as a more than a mere anti-China patron.
> 
> Taking matters further, the US eased arms restrictions on the country in October in order to sell it naval weaponry, and it plans to provide Vietnam with six patrol boats later this year. This development is but one way in which the US has demonstrated its strong support of Hanoi in its island disputes with Beijing. Through its deepening partnership with the US, Vietnam can work on increasingly attracting its Indian, Japanese, and perhaps even Australian allies to provide military-naval assistance in helping to beef up its forces against China. No matter the importance of the US to Vietnam’s overall anti-China strategy, however, it’s Washington than needs Hanoi more than the reverse, which was publicly demonstrated when Vietnam refused to buckle under American pressure last week.
> 
> Robust Russian Relations
> 
> Ties with Moscow have withstood the test of time, stretching as far back as the Vietnam War and developing along a full spectrum model. Military-technical cooperation is the focal point of the two countries’ relations, and Russia is the top arms supplier to Vietnam. It’s currently supplying a fleet of state-of-the-art kilo-class submarines that will lead to a surge in its naval capabilities, as well as new frigates and warships. Aside from the naval aspect, it was reported that it sold Vietnam a dozen Sukhoi fighters back in 2013.
> 
> Diversifying their relations, Vietnam and the Russian-led Eurasian Union clinched a free trade agreement back in December that should enter into force later this year. On top of that, Russia is helping to construct the planned Ninh Thuan 1 nuclear power plant, which will be the country’s first nuclear energy facility. This shows that Russia is able to be more than a simple weapons provider to Vietnam, and that it can offer the country benefits that it can’t receive elsewhere. Considering their robust relations, it’s obvious why Vietnam refused to listen to the US and halt its cooperation with Russia.
> 
> Chinese Complications
> 
> Vietnam’s relationship with China has always been complicated, largely due to the fact that both neighbors have interacted with one another for millennia and experienced long periods of rivalry and discontent. In modern history, Vietnam and China reached a stalemate in their brief 1979 war, which observers described as a relative Chinese loss. Both countries have competing claims over the Spratly and Paracel Island chains, and movement of a Chinese oil rig into the latter last summer triggered violent anti-Chinese protests in Vietnam.
> 
> Despite this drama, China is Vietnam’s single-largest overall trade partner, and the opportunity is certainly there that Beijing can integrate the country into its proposed Free Trade Area of the Asia-Pacific (China’s response to the TPP), if Hanoi so chooses. Either way, Vietnam must delicately balance its moves vis-à-vis China in order to avoid provoking it and risking a full-blown conflict, which in any case, would only play to the interests of the US in its ultimate policy of Chinese containment. Should the two butt heads (be it on land or at sea), then US would gleefully exploit such a situation to rush its military units into the region for a long-term stay, thereby mirroring the same thing it did in Eastern Europe as a result of the Ukrainian Crisis that it helped manufacture.



Russian bias says that US needs Vietnam more and will aid the country for its own military gain.


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## LacViet

VALKRYIE said:


> Russian bias says that US needs Vietnam more and will aid the country for its own military gain.



Nguyen Phu Trong, the party chef of VCP will visit Washington soon. problem for Vietnam is that how stop invasion of China in East Vietnam Sea.

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## Beast

Doing this way, you will end up with no allies. You can't really balance equally. You need to pick the right winner and bet it big on it.


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## LacViet

Vietnam will do what is necessary to protect the country sovereignty.

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## Raphael

Russia seeing 'surge' of investment from China

A slew of Chinese companies are investing in Russia, according to the CEO of Russia's sovereign wealth fund, who said it was helping to negate the void caused by international sanctions.

Speaking at the Egypt Economic Development Conference (EEDC) in the resort of Sharm El-Sheikh, Kirill Dmitriev, CEO of the Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF), underlined the importance of China's relationship with Russia.

"We have a special program where we co-invest with people to localize their production in Russia, and frankly we see (a) major surge of strategies from China," he told CNBC on the sidelines of the event.

"So a little bit less European countries are coming in right now, but lots of Chinese companies are coming in in mass. So we believe that for Russia it's important to continue working with China, but also to have a strategic relationship with Europe."

Russia annexed the southern Ukrainian area of Crimea in March 2014 and, as a result, has faced tough economic sanctions from Western nations.

Kirill Dmitriev, chief executive officer of Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF).
These sanctions have hit the country's economy hard, along with a dramatic fall in the price of oil which Russia remains heavily reliant on for revenues. The international community has witnessed a pivot by Russia towards the world's second-largest economy, with several major gas deals and trade pacts between the two countries announced last year.

Dmitriev said he hoped the sanctions would ease this year, and highlighted that Europe remains an important market for Russia. But he added that he was currently working mostly with Middle Eastern nations, like the United Arab Emirates, and Asian countries like China.

The RDIF is a $10-billion fund established by the Russian government to make equity investments that are mostly concentrated in the Russian economy.

It has brought over $15 billion of foreign capital into the country through long-term strategic partnerships, according to its website.

"We mostly look for Middle Eastern and Asian investors right now, around 90 percent of the $15 billion that we raised in our joint platforms comes from Asian and the Middle East," Dmitriev said.

"But we also hope a lot to work with European investors, similarly with U.S. investors and many others, once our situation gets more stable geopolitically."

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> Russia seeing 'surge' of investment from China
> 
> A slew of Chinese companies are investing in Russia, according to the CEO of Russia's sovereign wealth fund, who said it was helping to negate the void caused by international sanctions.
> 
> Speaking at the Egypt Economic Development Conference (EEDC) in the resort of Sharm El-Sheikh, Kirill Dmitriev, CEO of the Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF), underlined the importance of China's relationship with Russia.
> 
> "We have a special program where we co-invest with people to localize their production in Russia, and frankly we see (a) major surge of strategies from China," he told CNBC on the sidelines of the event.
> 
> "So a little bit less European countries are coming in right now, but lots of Chinese companies are coming in in mass. So we believe that for Russia it's important to continue working with China, but also to have a strategic relationship with Europe."
> 
> Russia annexed the southern Ukrainian area of Crimea in March 2014 and, as a result, has faced tough economic sanctions from Western nations.
> 
> Kirill Dmitriev, chief executive officer of Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF).
> These sanctions have hit the country's economy hard, along with a dramatic fall in the price of oil which Russia remains heavily reliant on for revenues. The international community has witnessed a pivot by Russia towards the world's second-largest economy, with several major gas deals and trade pacts between the two countries announced last year.
> 
> Dmitriev said he hoped the sanctions would ease this year, and highlighted that Europe remains an important market for Russia. But he added that he was currently working mostly with Middle Eastern nations, like the United Arab Emirates, and Asian countries like China.
> 
> The RDIF is a $10-billion fund established by the Russian government to make equity investments that are mostly concentrated in the Russian economy.
> 
> It has brought over $15 billion of foreign capital into the country through long-term strategic partnerships, according to its website.
> 
> "We mostly look for Middle Eastern and Asian investors right now, around 90 percent of the $15 billion that we raised in our joint platforms comes from Asian and the Middle East," Dmitriev said.
> 
> "But we also hope a lot to work with European investors, similarly with U.S. investors and many others, once our situation gets more stable geopolitically."



China's HAVAL is becoming popular in Russia.

*CHINA: Land Rover & Jeep rival Haval launches H9*
*By* Glenn Brooks | 28 November 2014





H9 on sale just days after its debut at Guangzhou show

Great Wall Motors' Haval division has begun selling the H9, the brand's largest model yet. Haval, once known as Hover, also makes China's best selling SUV, the H6. 

The body-on-frame H9 is similar in size to the Toyota Land Cruiser/Prado. It has seven seats and a standard turbocharged 2.0-litre four-cylinder petrol engine and six-speed automatic gearbox. A 3.0-litre V6 and an eight-speed automatic are due to be added from the fourth quarter of 2015.

While rival domestic brand Geely had one model in the top ten selling sedans list for October, GWM's best performing car was ranked 66th. *By contrast, the Haval H6 swept all before it in the SUV segments thanks to 30,373 sales last month. That was not only almost 10,000 more than the second placed Shanghai Volkswagen Tiguan (20,119), but double the sales rate of the Dongfeng Honda CR-V which ranked third (14,148). *

Haval is on a roll in China, the smaller H2 SUV grabbing fifth place on the October best selling SUVs list, its 11,678 placing it 888 units behind the Chery Tiggo 3. The H5 did not fare quite so well, its total was just 3,473, giving it 41st position.

In the first ten months of 2014, 319,736 Haval SUVs were sold, a 43% year on year surge. Of that total, 253,465 units were the H6. In early 2015, GWM will be celebrating the twelfth straight year as China's most successful SUV brand.

*Russia is a rising market for the brand and it will soon be launched in another country where both buyers of SUVs and local conditions can be extremely demanding.*

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## opruh

There is a lot of room for growth in Russia's economy, China should prioritize investing in Russia rather than countries like United Kingdom.

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China to uphold world peace, WWII history*

MOSCOW, March 19 (Xinhua) -- Russia and China will jointly celebrate the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Second World War to uphold world peace and wartime history.

*Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday met here with Li Zhanshu, a senior official of Communist Party of China (CPC).*

*Putin said he expected Chinese President Xi Jinping to come to Moscow for the celebration of the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Great Patriotic War on May 9.*

According to Putin, the two countries' joint celebrations of the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Second World War would help safeguard world peace against attempts to distort history and glorify invaders.

Li, member of the CPC Central Committee's Political Bureau and member of the CPC Central Committee's Secretariat as well as director of the CPC Central Committee's General Office, said that China and Russia, as two main battlefields in Asia and Europe during World War II, had made enormous contributions to the victory of the World Anti-Fascist War.

*China and Russia have decided to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the victory of World War II in both countries, which is of great significance to commemorating martyrs, remembering the history, cherishing and safeguarding world peace while serving a wake up call for future, Li added.*

According to Li, President Xi has always treated the development of China-Russia relations as priorities and valued highly the sound working relationship and personal friendship with President Putin.

Putin said Russia is willing to work with China and push forward bilateral cooperation in all fields, and asked Li to extend his good wishes to President Xi.

During the past two years, the two heads of state have met eight times, reaching a series of important consensus on strengthening the comprehensive strategic partnership and bilateral cooperation in all spheres.

Those meetings and consensus, said Li, have ushered in a new era of bilateral relations, with constant fruitful results.

As the two leaders would maintain close contacts this year at bilateral and multilateral levels, Li pledged that the General Office of the CPC Central Committee is willing to work closely with the Russian Presidential Administration to implement consensus on cooperation and make the celebrations of the 70th anniversary of the victory of the WWII a success.

Li also held talks with Russian Presidential Administration Chief Sergei Ivanov, and exchanged views on the mechanism of enhancing contacts between the two sides. They also met the press together after the talks.

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## SelfServeFive

A mutual defense pact will be the next step.

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## TaiShang

SelfServeFive said:


> A mutual defense pact will be the next step.



Can't wait to see the signing of it. Then the SCO can comfortably become the Eurasian NATO.

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## Hindustani78

Putin pushes for monetary union between Moscow, Minsk and Astana : UNIAN news
20.03.2015 | 15:59

*The time has come to consider a monetary union between Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday after meeting with the leaders of Belarus and Kazakhstan, according to Russian news agency RIA Novosti. *





REUTERS
"I think it's time to talk about the possibility of the formation of a monetary union in the long term," Putin said.

According to Putin, the parties also discussed the issue of Eurasian integration.

"Working shoulder to shoulder, it is easier to respond to external financial and economic threats and to protect our joint market," he said.

As reported earlier, the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEC) is an economic union, which was created on January 1, 2015 on the basis of the Customs Union between Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus within the framework of the Eurasian integration.

On February 26, 1999 Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia and Tajikistan signed the Treaty on the Customs Union and the Common Economic Space.


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## MarkusS

Hindustani78 said:


> Putin pushes for monetary union between Moscow, Minsk and Astana : UNIAN news
> 20.03.2015 | 15:59
> 
> *The time has come to consider a monetary union between Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Friday after meeting with the leaders of Belarus and Kazakhstan, according to Russian news agency RIA Novosti. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REUTERS
> "I think it's time to talk about the possibility of the formation of a monetary union in the long term," Putin said.
> 
> According to Putin, the parties also discussed the issue of Eurasian integration.
> 
> "Working shoulder to shoulder, it is easier to respond to external financial and economic threats and to protect our joint market," he said.
> 
> As reported earlier, the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEC) is an economic union, which was created on January 1, 2015 on the basis of the Customs Union between Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus within the framework of the Eurasian integration.
> 
> On February 26, 1999 Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia and Tajikistan signed the Treaty on the Customs Union and the Common Economic Space.



wow...what a powerful group. If they add netherlands they would grow 100% ha ha ha ha


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## Hindustani78

MarkusS said:


> wow...what a powerful group. If they add netherlands they would grow 100% ha ha ha ha



Russian Federation is working to counter EU which is an economic block.


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## opruh

MarkusS said:


> wow...what a powerful group. If they add netherlands they would grow 100% ha ha ha ha


In terms of gdp? then you are way off, please recheck your sources.

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## MarkusS

Hindustani78 said:


> Russian Federation is working to counter EU which is an economic block.



Good luck then with such pathetic partners...come on. You might not like us but even you must admit that looks sad...



opruh said:


> In terms of gdp? then you are way off, please recheck your sources.



If your only partners are some pathetic countries like belarus and kazhakstan...then you know your "eurasian union" is a scam. I doubt Putin is happy about this. There was a time when he was best friends with italy, germany, france. When Berlusconi, Chirac and Schröder were his personal friends. He never showed himself with guys like Lukaschenko oder that Borat from Kazhaktstan. Now it just looks like he is not invited to the glamour club...so he invites the freaks to be not alone.


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## TaiShang

*China and Russia to step up energy cooperation*
CCTV

‪#‎China‬ and ‪#‎Russia‬ are set to reach more ‪#‎energy‬ trade deals later this year, in a further sign that Russia may move away from Western energy markets and turning to the East.

*The cooperation plan between the two countries includes the construction of a new gas pipeline, known as the “Western route.” The pipeline will cut through Russia's Altai Republic to connect fields in western Siberia to northwest China.*

During a visit to Beijing in November last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin reached a preliminary agreement to supply China with 30 billion cubic meters of gas per year under the Western route project.

*According to Russia's state-owned Gazprom, it is determined to complete the construction of the new pipeline by 2018. *However many details, including the price of the gas, are still being worked out.

*This comes in addition to the “Eastern” route deal, which was signed between Gazprom and China’s CNPC in May 2014. The $400-billion deal stipulates that 38 billion cubic meters of Russian gas will be supplied annually to China over a period of 30 years.*

Discussing the deals in November last year, Gazprom CEO Aleksey Miller was quoted as saying that once the projects are complete,* the volume of gas that Russia delivers to China can exceed the current volumes of export to Europe.*

Analysts say that Moscow has been actively looking eastwards to sell natural gas and oil, with Central Asia and China being key markets.

"Russia is increasing its profile in Asia as a seller of oil and gas and other resources like this. And this is very good news, especially because we have already created, going to create more of that, a whole new system of economic cooperation," says Dmitry Kosyrev, a foreign affairs commentator with RIA Novosti.

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## Aepsilons

Good to see the blossoming relationship between Russia and China.

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## Víðarr

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Good to see the blossoming relationship between Russia and China.



You're too diplomatic!!! But this isn't really blossoming, it's been ongoing for a while now. Since 1991, Russian-Chinese cooperation has been centered around energy cooperation. And sorry I don't have a better source.

Sino-Russian relations since 1991 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Scope of Economic Cooperation between Russia and China and Future Prospects

And!

Still relying too much on energy cooperation. Russia needs diversification, not more of the same old, same old. Perhaps a partnership with Japanese or Chinese tech businesses, that's something that can help make Russia more competitive. More energy deals are only short-term fixes to long-term structural failures.

This Russian isn't happy.

Much depressed.

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## Aepsilons

Víðarr said:


> Still relying too much on energy cooperation. Russia needs diversification, not more of the same old, same old. Perhaps a partnership with Japanese or Chinese tech businesses, that's something that can help make Russia more competitive. More energy deals are only short-term fixes to long-term structural failures.
> 
> This Russian isn't happy.




I'm hoping that the planned Pipeline connecting Sakhalin to Hokkaido will be realized soon. This should boost economic integration of Russian Far East with Northern Japan. 

Let's hope for more positive collaboration between Moscow and Tokyo so we can realize this. 

Sakhalin to Hokkaido gas pipeline talks reignited between Russia and Japan? — Pipelines International

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## Víðarr

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I'm hoping that the planned Pipeline connecting Sakhalin to Hokkaido will be realized soon. This should boost economic integration of Russian Far East with Northern Japan.
> 
> Let's hope for more positive collaboration between Moscow and Tokyo so we can realize this.
> 
> Sakhalin to Hokkaido gas pipeline talks reignited between Russia and Japan? — Pipelines International





A good development, I too hope for continued progress, but again, the underlying trend and structural weakness remains. Russia is nothing more than a gas-station right now, it's not taking the necessary steps towards diversification and is sticking mainly with energy diplomacy!!! I want to see a more comprehensive and diverse relationship between it and its trading partners, not more energy deals.



But good news is good news and I'm an optimistic person, so if this pipeline goes through I wont complain too much.


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## Aepsilons

Víðarr said:


> This Russian isn't happy.



You know, as a Northern Japanese (who has maternal side that are part Ainu) and with a fondness for Russian Culture , I hope to see (one day) a blossoming relationship between Japan and Russia. I think that Russia is a natural partner for Japan given our geographical proximities and our growing trade , growing cultural exposure to each other.

Why even in Japan there is a fascination for Russian culture and Russian people , especially in my part of the country (The Great North of Japan, and the Great Proud people of Hokkaido). 

As Japan develops a more robust foreign policy, I hope to see greater collaboration with Russia. On all fields.



Víðarr said:


> A good development, I too hope for continued progress, but again, the underlying trend and structural weakness remains. Russia is nothing more than a gas-station right now, it's not taking the necessary steps towards diversification and is sticking mainly with energy diplomacy!!! I want to see a more comprehensive and diverse relationship between it and its trading partners, not more energy deals.



I agree ! And Russia has so much potential for more than just being an energy supplier, but a technological beacon for the region. Afterall, no one can counter or argue of Russia's impressive military technology, or the capabilities of the Great Russian Navy. 

I hope that Japan seizes the initiative and helps develop the Russian Far East; Vladivostok , Kamchatkya and beyond !

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## Yizhi

LOL...hats off to your diplomatic skills!. @Nihonjin1051

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## Víðarr

Yizhi said:


> LOL...hats off to your diplomatic skills!. @Nihonjin1051



Seriously, I want him for the US Presidency

Nihonjin 2016, let's get the campaign rolling, damn US laws on foreigners being president. Let's make it happen!!!

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## Aepsilons

Yizhi said:


> LOL...hats off to your diplomatic skills!. @Nihonjin1051



Its the Teow Chew Influence. LOL!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Its the Teow Chew Influence. LOL!


 
Lol what you know about Teow Chew??

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## Aepsilons

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Lol what you know about Teow Chew??



Enough to survive .


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Enough to survive family gatherings, lol. An xgf of mine was Teow Chew Chinese.


 
If you claim to have Teow Chew as xgf, then you must know Teow Chew opera  and tell me the key word of Teow Chew met a Teow Chew.

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## Aepsilons

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> If you claim to have Teow Chew as xgf, then you must know Teow Chew opera  and tell me the key word of Teow Chew met a Teow Chew.



_潮州戲 ? 

Lew ay gah wah seung may ? _

PS. You watch first before you ask me to watch that. 



TaiShang said:


> *China and Russia to step up energy cooperation*
> CCTV
> 
> ‪#‎China‬ and ‪#‎Russia‬ are set to reach more ‪#‎energy‬ trade deals later this year, in a further sign that Russia may move away from Western energy markets and turning to the East.
> 
> *The cooperation plan between the two countries includes the construction of a new gas pipeline, known as the “Western route.” The pipeline will cut through Russia's Altai Republic to connect fields in western Siberia to northwest China.*
> 
> During a visit to Beijing in November last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin reached a preliminary agreement to supply China with 30 billion cubic meters of gas per year under the Western route project.
> 
> *According to Russia's state-owned Gazprom, it is determined to complete the construction of the new pipeline by 2018. *However many details, including the price of the gas, are still being worked out.
> 
> *This comes in addition to the “Eastern” route deal, which was signed between Gazprom and China’s CNPC in May 2014. The $400-billion deal stipulates that 38 billion cubic meters of Russian gas will be supplied annually to China over a period of 30 years.*
> 
> Discussing the deals in November last year, Gazprom CEO Aleksey Miller was quoted as saying that once the projects are complete,* the volume of gas that Russia delivers to China can exceed the current volumes of export to Europe.*
> 
> Analysts say that Moscow has been actively looking eastwards to sell natural gas and oil, with Central Asia and China being key markets.
> 
> "Russia is increasing its profile in Asia as a seller of oil and gas and other resources like this. And this is very good news, especially because we have already created, going to create more of that, a whole new system of economic cooperation," says Dmitry Kosyrev, a foreign affairs commentator with RIA Novosti.






China-Russia energy forum features contributions from GRATA lawyers | Firm News | The Lawyer


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> _潮州戲 ?
> 
> Lew ay gah wah seung may ? _
> 
> PS. You watch first before you ask me to watch that.


 
 I don't know where you get the translation...but lol OK...-> you want to play with me?


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## opruh

What an admirable relationship between two countries, they definitely trust each other, unlike the US and it's coward allies

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## xunzi

Win-win cooperation. It is our foreign policy goal.

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## TaiShang

*Interview: High-tech cooperation further boosts China-Russia relationship*

English.news.cn 2014-10-11 

MOSCOW, Oct. 11 (Xinhua) -- Scientific and technological cooperation is becoming another stimulus to China-Russia relationship, Russia's Deputy Minister of Economic Development Oleg Formichev has said.

"In my opinion, high-tech transfers would be another new form of investment cooperation between the two countries," Formichev told Xinhua in an exclusive interview before Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's upcoming visit to Moscow, the first one since he took office in March last year.

*Russian and Chinese organizations are currently cooperating on six scientific projects, as well as nearly 30 ones on basic research and applied research, under the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), Formichev said.*

*Joint projects cover areas of new materials, environmental and energy-saving technology, biotechnology, high-energy physics, chemical engineering and petrochemistry, the deputy minister said, adding that substantial support was given by both countries' governments.*

Meanwhile, the first meeting of the China-Russia Investment Cooperation Committee was held in Beijing in early September. *More than 30 investment project deals were concluded on high-speed railways, iron and copper mining, as well as the construction of a rubber plant and a joint-venture airliner lease company.*

Those projects would also stimulate the investment cooperation between the two countries, Formichev said, adding that economic and trade contacts have become the priority of the bilateral cooperation.

China has been the No. 1 trading partner of Russia over the past four years. Plans are afoot to raise the two-way trade volume to 100 billion U.S. dollars by 2015 and 200 billion dollars by 2020. Achieving the goals is highly secured by the current momentum of bilateral business boom, said Formichev.

The two countries signed the China and Russia Purchase and Sales Contract on East Route Gas Project and a memorandum in May. The 30-year contract will see the east route pipeline start to provide China with 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas annually from 2018.

"The construction of China-Russia natural gas pipelines would be the same success just as the Skovorodino-Mohe crude oil pipeline, which started operation in 2011," Formichev said.

*Cooperation in nuclear power is also thriving.* According to Formichev, the construction of the Tianwan nuclear power plant in eastern China would be finished by 2017. Moreover, the oil refinery with a 13-million-ton annual output would be put into operation in China's northern city of Tianjin.

*Besides successful energy cooperation, there is a fresh impetus in such cooperation areas as infrastructure construction, civil aviation, ship building, automobile manufacture, transportation, finance, high-tech, agriculture and aerospace, Formichev said.*

Russia is interested in Chinese experiences in the construction of special economic zones, industrial zones and innovative business clusters, he said.

Chinese Premier Li will attend an innovation forum during his visit to Moscow.

Formichev stressed that, under current complicated international geopolitical situations, China's attendance at the forum highlights a bright outlook for the all-around high-level bilateral relationship between the two countries.

+++

*Spotlight: Chinese hi-tech firms, equipment makers gain increasing traction overseas*
Mar 27,2015

BEIJING, March 27 (Xinhua) -- Chinese technology firms and equipment makers are gaining more and more traction overseas, propelled by the country's drive to realize a shift from low-end manufacturing onto construction into innovation hub for high-end technology.

As the government highlighted in a recent executive meeting of the State Council (the Cabinet), China needs to accelerate implementation of the "Made in China 2025" strategy by raising product and service standards in a bid to promote the economy to a medium-to-high level.

A mature equipment manufacturing industry could inject new momentum to China's economy under the "new normal."

The government report for 2015 delivered at an annual session of the National People's Congress (NPC) in early March said the country encourages its companies to participate in overseas infrastructure projects and engage in cooperation with their foreign counterparts in building up production capacity in a bid to increase the international market share of China's sectors of railways, electric power generation, telecommunications, engineering machinery, automaking, aircraft production, electronics and other equipment manufacturing.

No sector better symbolizes China's shift from a nation of labor intensive manufacturing onto one that excels in the high-tech field than high speed rail (HSR), which has already become a new "image card" for China.

*The country's railway transportation industry is seeing great opportunities to export its technology, as China is engaging itself in discussions with Russia, Mongolia, India and Thailand on railway cooperation.*

Huang Bin, an expert at Thailand's think tank KAITAI Research Center, said China's railway industry enjoys some prominent advantages and a late-mover edge as it is capable of offering a full range of ancillary equipment and has experience in operation uder different climate and terrain conditions. What is more important is that its products are always highly efficient and cost-effective.

In December 2014, China and Thailand inked a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on railway cooperation, agreeing to jointly build Thailand's first standard-gauge railway lines with a total length of more than 800 km.

The railway line, linking the Nong Khai Province in northern Thailand and the Map Ta Phut Port in southern Thailand, will be built totally with Chinese technologies, standards and equipment.

In January 2015, Kenya's Mombasa-Nairobi railway line was officially put into operation.

The 480-km railway line, built by China Road and Bridge Corporation, is the first to completely adopt Chinese standards outside the world's second biggest economy, and it is said to be the largest infrastructure project in the country since the independence of Kenya.

Always upholding the win-win principle, China actually has a fairly long history of railway cooperation with other countries. Officials from the Argentine province of Chubut recently revealed that they have been negotiating with some Chinese companies on possible railway cooperation.

The chairman of the Argentine-Chinese chamber of production, industry and commerce, Carlos P. Spadone said recently that no one wants to lose the opportunity to hitch a ride aboard China's economic development.

Over the years, China's railway transportation industry has witnessed earth-shaking transformation, as evidenced by its state-of-the-art technologies and equipment.

In 2014, the export contract value of China's top two bullet train makers, China South Rail Corporation (CSR) and China North Rail (CNR), exceeded three billion U.S. dollars, a 60 percent increase from 2013. They have recently announced that they would merge into a new company in a bid to accelerate overseas expansion.

The railway sector is just a snapshot of China's fast-evolving equipment manufacturing industry, as an increasing number of Chinese equipment makers and high-tech firms are "going global," offering cost-effective and quality products to regions and countries around the world.

In October 2014, Romania and China General Nuclear (CGN) signed a joint letter of intent to build two new reactors in Romania's Cernavoda nuclear plant for which the Chinese company has been designated as an investor.

Chinese nuclear power companies have also managed to gain ground in South Africa, Argentine and Turkey, as the country has formally launched its first indigenous nuclear power reactor design.

In August 2014, China National Nuclear Corporation announced that China's own-brand third-generation reactor "Hualong One" has passed through experts review to become the country's independent nuclear power technology that could be exported.
***

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## black-hawk_101

TaiShang said:


> *China and Russia to step up energy cooperation*
> CCTV
> 
> ‪#‎China‬ and ‪#‎Russia‬ are set to reach more ‪#‎energy‬ trade deals later this year, in a further sign that Russia may move away from Western energy markets and turning to the East.
> 
> *The cooperation plan between the two countries includes the construction of a new gas pipeline, known as the “Western route.” The pipeline will cut through Russia's Altai Republic to connect fields in western Siberia to northwest China.*
> 
> During a visit to Beijing in November last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin reached a preliminary agreement to supply China with 30 billion cubic meters of gas per year under the Western route project.
> 
> *According to Russia's state-owned Gazprom, it is determined to complete the construction of the new pipeline by 2018. *However many details, including the price of the gas, are still being worked out.
> 
> *This comes in addition to the “Eastern” route deal, which was signed between Gazprom and China’s CNPC in May 2014. The $400-billion deal stipulates that 38 billion cubic meters of Russian gas will be supplied annually to China over a period of 30 years.*
> 
> Discussing the deals in November last year, Gazprom CEO Aleksey Miller was quoted as saying that once the projects are complete,* the volume of gas that Russia delivers to China can exceed the current volumes of export to Europe.*
> 
> Analysts say that Moscow has been actively looking eastwards to sell natural gas and oil, with Central Asia and China being key markets.
> 
> "Russia is increasing its profile in Asia as a seller of oil and gas and other resources like this. And this is very good news, especially because we have already created, going to create more of that, a whole new system of economic cooperation," says Dmitry Kosyrev, a foreign affairs commentator with RIA Novosti.



Pakistan could have played a pivotal role by supplying China and India with Refined Qatari gas and Refined KSA Oil products through pipelines coming from Gwadar. Also this can be beneficial for Pakistan to use it as well.


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## TaiShang

black-hawk_101 said:


> Pakistan could have played a pivotal role by supplying China and India with Refined Qatari gas and Refined KSA Oil products through pipelines coming from Gwadar. Also this can be beneficial for Pakistan to use it as well.



I am not particularly thrilled about the idea. China tends to diversify its energy supplies and diversification is from unreliable GCC (led by KSA) to Latin America (led by Venezuela) and Central Asia (led by Russia).

GCC area has become way too sectarian and explosive. Iran is the only remaining area of stability. And their foreign policy is more rational and prudent. China won't like partners that attack others at will. Besides, KSA is the leading sponsor of terrorism and China should not provide more hard cash to the regime than it already does.

Pakistan can play a key role by securely linking China to Iran.

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## BoQ77

_




Vietnam
_

*US, Vietnam Gear Up To Build Stronger Ties To Take On China – Analysis*
March 27, 2015 Eurasia Review 

By Veeramalla Anjaiah*

After having strengthened economic and political relations during the last two decades, the United States and Vietnam have now embarked on a new course to deepen the bilateral cooperation in new areas such as law enforcement, transnational crimes, maritime security and cyber security.

This year both countries are celebrating the 20th anniversary of normalization of diplomatic relations. As part of the commemoration of this historic event, Vietnam’s Public Security Minister Tran Dai Quang visited the US last week and met with several key senior officials and senators, including the US Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson and Republican Senator John McCain.

During his week-long historic visit, Minister Quang, a politburo member of the Vietnam’s communist party and a powerful official in the Vietnamese government, expressed his satisfaction and happiness about the progress in cooperation between both countries in the fields of politics, diplomacy, economy, science and technology, education, environment, health, humanitarian issues, defense and security.

Basically, the main purpose of the visit was to promote the existing comprehensive partnership between the two countries on one side and explore more avenues for cooperation in the new fields on the other. T*he comprehensive partnership agreement was signed in 2013. Indonesia signed the similar agreement with the US in 2010*.

While meeting Johnson, Quang discussed the possible cooperation in law enforcement, information sharing, transnational threats, human trafficking, intellectual property rights, maritime and cyber security.

Quang also signed a letter of agreement with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) regarding the transfer of DNA testing software.

During the Vietnam war, Americans dropped more than 7 million tons of bombs on Vietnamese people and more than three million people were killed in the entire war. But today Americans and Vietnamese are good friends and their countries on a fast track to become strategic partners. Vietnamese people have forgotten the bloody past and openly welcomed Americans. We can see today Starbucks, McDonalds, CFC outlets in major Vietnamese towns and cities.

Perhaps, the rising of China, both economically and militarily, might lead to the birth of this strange relationship between former foes.* Indonesia, the de facto leader of ASEAN, has relatively good relationship with the world’s sole power. But now Vietnam is emerging as an important partner of the US in the region, outperforming the US traditional allies the Philippines and Thailand.*

Vietnam says economic and geopolitical interests are the main reasons behind its rapidly growing relations with the US while the US considers Vietnam as a strategic partner and a possible bulwark against China under its so-called pivot or rebalancing toward Asia.

“Economic trade ties continue to stay at the heart of bilateral relations, serving both as the cornerstone of, and an engine for the overall relationship,” Vietnamese President Truong Tan Sang said during his historic visit to Washington in 2013.

*Indonesia’s relations with the US are much older than Vietnam’s. But why the US now favors Vietnam more than Indonesia, especially in areas like trade, investment, defense, security and even in the field of nuclear science.* Big powers always put Indonesia in a different category in the game of diplomacy and geopolitics, thanks to the archipelagic nation’s “free and active foreign policy” and its big size.

Despite of its democratic credentials, giant size and rising middle class, Indonesia has failed to reap rewards from the rapidly growing US-ASEAN relations. The bilateral trade didn’t see a significant growth as the trade was hovering between US$23 billion to $27 billion during the last five years.

Both exports and imports were rather stagnant. Based on the Central Statistics Agency’s data Indonesia’s bilateral trade with the US stood at $24.70 billion in 2014, almost the same in 2013. Indonesia’s exports have been on the decline since 2010 due to wrong policies, strategies and sharp decline in commodity prices.

Though American investors are interested in Indonesia, they are reluctant to invest heavily in Indonesia due to numerous problems ranging from legal certainty, corruption, taxation, to labor problems and land acquisition.

On the other hand, during the last five years, the bilateral trade between Vietnam and its former foe was more than doubled, *surging from $14.2 billion in 2010 to $36.30 billion in 2014. Vietnam is today ASEAN’s biggest exporter, according to the US Census Bureau data, to the US with $30.58 billion of exports last year.*

Vietnam is the fourth biggest trading partner of the US among ASEAN members. With $46.99 billion trade, tiny Singapore became the biggest trading partner of the US in ASEAN and Malaysia ($43.57 billion) and Thailand ($38.91 billion) stood second and third respectively. Indonesia is the fifth biggest trading partner of the US in ASEAN.

With its low labor costs, resources, bold economic and political reforms, incentives for investors and relatively better infrastructure, Vietnam has become a darling of foreign manufacturers in recent years.

*Several American giants like Ford, Apple, Intel and General Electrics invested heavily in Vietnam. South Korea’s Samsung found Vietnam as a favorite place for investments than Indonesia and invested $11 billion in the electronic sector in Vietnam during last two years*. Perhaps, Indonesia, whose manufacturing sector is in bad shape, can learn from Vietnam’s experience.

Moreover,* Vietnam is on the course to become the first country in Southeast Asia to acquire nuclear knowledge from the US. The US has agreed to provide nuclear know how to Hanoi to build a nuclear power plant in the near future*.

In line with the growing friendship and affection between the two nations, Obama recently eased a ban on providing weapons to Vietnam. It was a partial lifting of the ban and now Hanoi is asking for the removal of complete ban, given its tense relations with its neighbor China over South China Sea dispute.

This year,* two important visits – first Vietnam’s Communist Party Secretary-General Nguyen Phu Trong’s visit to the US and later President Obama’s visit to Vietnam* – are set to reshape the entire gamut of bilateral relations and pave the way for much awaited strategic partnership.

Another landmark in the both countries’ ties will be when Vietnam officially joins the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade pact later this year.* The bilateral trade will easily reach $100 billion in two to three years*. More and more investments will pour in not only from the US but also from other TPP member countries.

_*The writer is an author and a senior journalist living in Jakarta._

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## Jlaw

BoQ77 said:


> *The writer is an author and a senior journalist living in Jakarta.





Edited: thanks BBQ77 for a great start to a Monday morning.

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## William Hung

Alot of Viets with their old nostalgic affinity towards the Russia of old will not be able to accept this new reality (e.g. @NiceGuy). They probably can't accept the new reality of their beloved Russia playing the subordinate role vis-a-vis the China rise.



Jlaw said:


> Too embarrass to even put his name on this piece of shit article. thanks BBQ77 for a great start to a Monday morning.



Too much hate and grudges has impaired your vision. The name of the author is clearly printed at the beginning of the article. I recommend you taking a Buddhist meditation retreat.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

Vietnam won't be won over completely by any party,be that US,Russia,China or Japan
The leadership in Hanoi played it quite smart, unlike the morons in Kiev

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## Jlaw

Yorozuya said:


> Too much hate and grudges has impaired your vision. The name of the author is clearly printed at the beginning of the article. I recommend you taking a Buddhist meditation retreat.



Not hate. Stating the fact. The person was too embarrassed to put his name on the article.

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## William Hung

Jlaw said:


> Not hate. Stating the fact. The person was too embarrassed to put his name on the article.



Check those three words right after the article's date and before when the article starts.

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## Jlaw

Yorozuya said:


> Check those three words right after the article's date and before when the article starts.


Ok. My bad I missed his name. But still a very bad article nevertheless. Grasping for straws is the term.

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## William Hung

Jlaw said:


> Ok. My bad I missed his name. But still a very bad article nevertheless. Grasping for straws is the term.



Even not many Viets will be able to believe it. But it is becoming a reality. The bottom 80% of VCP members will lose their positions. The top 20% VCP officials will keep their posts and their new party will be renamed the Socialist Democratic Party of Viet Nam. Once they succeed, with the support of the West, their vision will spread to Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and finally Myanmar. Thus, uniting the greater Sub-Mekong region into a cohesive regional power bloc under the auspices of the US. To counter this, China will pump billions of dollars into the region, but this will only increase the power and might of the Greater Sub Mekong Empire. After the Chinese Wuchang rice are consumed, the bowl will be thrown right back at China, shattering into pieces. Contrary to what many people think, the US grooming the VCP is not primarily about the SCS. The Indonesian author is only half-right.

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## TaiShang

*This is the Indonesian view.



China, Indonesia Sign Deal to Boost Cooperation*
2015-03-27 





Chinese President Xi Jinping (R) and Indonesian President Joko Widodo attend a press conference after their talks at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, capital of China, March 26, 2015. [Photo: Xinhua]


The Chinese and Indonesian governments have inked a new economic and political agreement. 

The deal includes a 5-year plan to beef-up economic and strategic ties.

It's been signed following a meeting between Chinese President Xi Jinping and Indonesian President Joko Widodo in Beijing.

"We agreed to jointly announce a comprehensive strategic partnership for relations between China and Indonesia, to push forward the mutual exchange towards a win-win direction and enhance the development of our cooperation. We have worked out a comprehensive strategic plan for cooperation in the next five years. We will turn the cooperation into fruitful results for the benefits of people from both countries."

For his part, Widodo is calling on the international community to support the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

"Indonesia encourages the international community to support the idea of an Asian Infrastructure Investment bank initiated by China as an important part of the international financial architecture system."

Meanwhile, Chinese President Xi Jinping has also met with new Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena.

Sirisena is also in Beijing, his first state visit to China since his election.

***

*China Minsheng Investment to invest $5 bln in Indonesia industrial park*
SHANGHAI, MARCH 27

(Reuters) - China Minsheng Investment Group said on Friday it would invest $5 billion to develop an industrial park in Indonesia, in a move to support China's "one belt, one road" project.

*The private equity firm said the investment was part of a $40 billion worth of agreements that it signed with the Indonesia-China Business Council in Beijing on Friday.*

The one belt, one road project is an initiative by China to reestablish trade links along the old Silk Road route.

It said it would develop the industrial park project with 10 other private Chinese enterprises which it did not name. (Reporting by Shanghai Newsroom and Brenda Goh; Editing by Anand Basu)

***

*China, Indonesia eye further infrastructure construction cooperation*

BEIJING, March 27 (Xinhua) -- China and Indonesia pledged more infrastructure construction and investment cooperation during a meeting between Premier Li Keqiang and President Joko Widodo Friday.

The Chinese government will encourage more reputable companies to invest in Indonesia and participate in the construction of high-speed railway, metro rail and port industrial parks, Li said.

He called on the two countries to conduct production capacity cooperation, through which China will help Indonesia turn its abundant resources into industrialization development impetus, and to increase two-way trade and investment.

Joko echoed Li saying Indonesia hopes to strengthen cooperation with China in areas including energy, maritime industry, agriculture, aviation and tourism.

He welcomed Chinese companies investment and voiced support for the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), saying he hoped the AIIB could contribute to the region's economic development.

Indonesia officially joined the China-proposed AIIB in November 2004, making it a founding member.

With regard to China-Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) relations, Li hailed the positive role played by Indonesia in promoting a sound development of ties.

Li said China was ready to work with ASEAN to maintain peace, development and prosperity of east Asia.

After meeting at the Great Hall of the People, Li and Joko also attended a bilateral economic cooperation forum, on the sidelines of which, companies from the two countries signed around 30 deals worth 40 billion U.S. dollars, according to Suryo Bambang Sulisto, president of the Indonesian Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

Sulisto told the forum that China' s investment in Indonesia's mining and maritime industry would bring good benefit to the country and Indonesia hoped to take advantage of China's economic growth.

Li said the two countries both had big populations, which means huge markets. They are complementary in terms of different industrialization process. The two sides should combine China's advantage of technology and capital with Indonesia's advantage of market and resources to promote a coordinated upstream and downstream development.

The premier also pledged to encourage Chinese companies to increase investment to Indonesia.

Joko said Indonesia had demand for high-speed railway, port, airport, power plant and industrial parks. Indonesia will provide a good investment environment for Chinese companies.

*Joko was invited by Chinese President Xi Jinping for a state visit. He will also go to Boao, in South China's Hainan Province, to attend the annual Boao Forum for Asia conference.*

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## pr1v4t33r

Yorozuya said:


> The Indonesian author is only half-right.




I checked his name, and he isn't Indonesian, but Indian author, living in Jakarta.

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## William Hung

TaiShang said:


> *This is the Indonesian view.
> 
> 
> 
> China, Indonesia Sign Deal to Boost Cooperation*
> 2015-03-27
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese President Xi Jinping (R) and Indonesian President Joko Widodo attend a press conference after their talks at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, capital of China, March 26, 2015. [Photo: Xinhua]
> 
> 
> The Chinese and Indonesian governments have inked a new economic and political agreement.
> 
> The deal includes a 5-year plan to beef-up economic and strategic ties.
> 
> It's been signed following a meeting between Chinese President Xi Jinping and Indonesian President Joko Widodo in Beijing.
> 
> "We agreed to jointly announce a comprehensive strategic partnership for relations between China and Indonesia, to push forward the mutual exchange towards a win-win direction and enhance the development of our cooperation. We have worked out a comprehensive strategic plan for cooperation in the next five years. We will turn the cooperation into fruitful results for the benefits of people from both countries."
> 
> For his part, Widodo is calling on the international community to support the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.
> 
> "Indonesia encourages the international community to support the idea of an Asian Infrastructure Investment bank initiated by China as an important part of the international financial architecture system."
> 
> Meanwhile, Chinese President Xi Jinping has also met with new Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena.
> 
> Sirisena is also in Beijing, his first state visit to China since his election.
> 
> ***
> 
> *China Minsheng Investment to invest $5 bln in Indonesia industrial park*
> SHANGHAI, MARCH 27
> 
> (Reuters) - China Minsheng Investment Group said on Friday it would invest $5 billion to develop an industrial park in Indonesia, in a move to support China's "one belt, one road" project.
> 
> *The private equity firm said the investment was part of a $40 billion worth of agreements that it signed with the Indonesia-China Business Council in Beijing on Friday.*
> 
> The one belt, one road project is an initiative by China to reestablish trade links along the old Silk Road route.
> 
> It said it would develop the industrial park project with 10 other private Chinese enterprises which it did not name. (Reporting by Shanghai Newsroom and Brenda Goh; Editing by Anand Basu)
> 
> ***
> 
> *China, Indonesia eye further infrastructure construction cooperation*
> 
> BEIJING, March 27 (Xinhua) -- China and Indonesia pledged more infrastructure construction and investment cooperation during a meeting between Premier Li Keqiang and President Joko Widodo Friday.
> 
> The Chinese government will encourage more reputable companies to invest in Indonesia and participate in the construction of high-speed railway, metro rail and port industrial parks, Li said.
> 
> He called on the two countries to conduct production capacity cooperation, through which China will help Indonesia turn its abundant resources into industrialization development impetus, and to increase two-way trade and investment.
> 
> Joko echoed Li saying Indonesia hopes to strengthen cooperation with China in areas including energy, maritime industry, agriculture, aviation and tourism.
> 
> He welcomed Chinese companies investment and voiced support for the establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), saying he hoped the AIIB could contribute to the region's economic development.
> 
> Indonesia officially joined the China-proposed AIIB in November 2004, making it a founding member.
> 
> With regard to China-Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) relations, Li hailed the positive role played by Indonesia in promoting a sound development of ties.
> 
> Li said China was ready to work with ASEAN to maintain peace, development and prosperity of east Asia.
> 
> After meeting at the Great Hall of the People, Li and Joko also attended a bilateral economic cooperation forum, on the sidelines of which, companies from the two countries signed around 30 deals worth 40 billion U.S. dollars, according to Suryo Bambang Sulisto, president of the Indonesian Chamber of Commerce and Industry.
> 
> Sulisto told the forum that China' s investment in Indonesia's mining and maritime industry would bring good benefit to the country and Indonesia hoped to take advantage of China's economic growth.
> 
> Li said the two countries both had big populations, which means huge markets. They are complementary in terms of different industrialization process. The two sides should combine China's advantage of technology and capital with Indonesia's advantage of market and resources to promote a coordinated upstream and downstream development.
> 
> The premier also pledged to encourage Chinese companies to increase investment to Indonesia.
> 
> Joko said Indonesia had demand for high-speed railway, port, airport, power plant and industrial parks. Indonesia will provide a good investment environment for Chinese companies.
> 
> *Joko was invited by Chinese President Xi Jinping for a state visit. He will also go to Boao, in South China's Hainan Province, to attend the annual Boao Forum for Asia conference.*



My brother @TaiShang, you are sounding more and more like a broken record. I think PDF is wrecking you so you ought to take some time off PDF. I know you have a habit of (and openly encourages your compatriots to practice the same habit of) countering the threads that you don't like with articles that demean the country of interest or post articles that boost the image of your employer.

However, the articles that you've posted (about ID-China relationship) is offtopic and not of concern here. The OP article is primarily about the US-VN relationship with some passing reference to the ID-US relationship. It was merely written by an author, as pointed out by @pr1v4teer, who happens to be an ethnic Indian living in Indonesia.



pr1v4t33r said:


> I checked his name, and he isn't Indonesian, but Indian author, living in Jakarta.



Thanks for pointing this out. To my untrained eyes, anyone who lives in Indonesia and has a surname that ends with an -ah sounds Indonesian to me.

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## pr1v4t33r

Yorozuya said:


> Thanks for pointing this out. To my untrained eyes, anyone who lives in Indonesia and has a surname that ends with an -ah sounds Indonesian to me.




Ok, no problem. But can you slightly change the title and remove the "Indonesian view". Because even the author didn't claim this notion.


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## William Hung

pr1v4t33r said:


> Ok, no problem. But can you slightly change the title and remove the "Indonesian view". Because even the author didn't claim this notion.



I wasn't the one who created this thread.


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## Indos

He is indeed Indonesian and also Muslim, but from Indian descent. Move from India into Indonesia to take study at University of Indonesia. Getting Indonesian citizenship already.

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## William Hung

Indos said:


> He is indeed Indonesian and also Muslim, but from Indian descent. Move from India into Indonesia to take study at University of Indonesia. Getting Indonesian citizenship already.



Is he your colleague?


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## Indos

Yorozuya said:


> Is he your colleague?



I am not that old buddy 





This is the person

This is the history in Indonesian, I just try to check using Google. The article also suggesting that he is Indonesian.

Kuliah di Jurusan Sejarah, Veeramalla Anjaiah Masuk Islam | "Guide us to the Straight Path" (QS 1:6)

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## William Hung

Indos said:


> I am not that old buddy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the person
> 
> This is the history in Indonesian, I just try to check using Google. The article also suggesting that he is Indonesian.
> 
> Kuliah di Jurusan Sejarah, Veeramalla Anjaiah Masuk Islam | "Guide us to the Straight Path" (QS 1:6)



Work colleagues doesn't need to be similar in age. 

But I guess, he is your work mentor?


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## Indos

Yorozuya said:


> Work colleagues doesn't need to be similar in age.
> 
> But I guess, he is your work mentor?



Nope bro,

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## BoQ77

In Hanoi 2010 An Indonesian senior manager explain to me why Nike abandon Indonesia for Vietnam. He said indonesian officials think the manufacturer already built their factories in ID unable to move again, so they make too little improvement for investment environment of old investors


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## Battle of Bach Dang River

This is the result of Doi Moi (renovation) in Vietnam, with foreign policy: *"Vietnam wants to be friend all other countries for Peace, Independence and Development".....*

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## Nike

Well, Indonesia is not an export-driven economic country


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## pr1v4t33r

BoQ77 said:


> In Hanoi 2010 An Indonesian senior manager explain why Nike abandon Indonesia for Vietnam. He said indonesian officials think the manufacturer already built their factories in ID unable to move again, so they make too little improvement for investment environment of old investors




Good luck for vietnam. We will try our best on another stuff, like Automotif industry, aerospace, smelter, and so on. Wish us the best.

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## VALKRYIE

^ Complimenting and insulting OP at the same time.

CFC outlets in major Vietnamese towns and cities? Come From China .


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## Rechoice

Indos said:


> He is indeed Indonesian and also Muslim, but from Indian descent. Move from India into Indonesia to take study at University of Indonesia. Getting Indonesian citizenship already.



how about Chinese Indonesian ? their opinion is biased too.


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## Rechoice

Beast said:


> Of cos China is stronger, if not wojoko will not align with China now.
> 
> Vietnam must realize their economy is tied to China, not US. The fact vietnam has an investment boom is becos of their location near to manufacturing powerhouse of Guangdong province. Nearer to supplier chain while still retaining cheap labour cost of Vietnam.
> 
> If China in a fit of anger or playing politics, China can slow custom import export from vietnam like few years ago where Vietnam import food stranded and rot at border.
> 
> The fact vietnam joins AIIB that she in need of money for infrastructure building which only China can provide the money and expertise. Japan and US are going to charge vietnam for an arm or leg while China is the only way be able to build up vietnam economy reasonably.



This is illusion of chinese. Policy of Chana is easy changeable. China could close border if you want. I think all Vietnamese can know that, not only VCP politician. Any case, Vietnam have to limit depending from China, at first on economy.

naturally, the relation with US is very important for Vietnam.T*he comprehensive partnership agreement was signed in 2013 and Vietnam joined on TPP negotiations.
*

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## Beast

Rechoice said:


> This is illusion of chinese. Policy of Chana is easy changeable. China could close border if you want. I think all Vietnamese can know that, not only VCP politician. Any case, Vietnam have to limit depending from China, at first on economy.
> 
> naturally, the relation with US is very important for Vietnam.T*he comprehensive partnership agreement was signed in 2013 and Vietnam joined on TPP negotiations.*




Vietnam joining China led AIIB is a first sign of vietnam dependent on China. If you are not happy, don't join. You can live in delusion but that will not deny the fact of China leverage on vietnam.

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## JF-17-PAF

utp45 said:


> Vietnam won't be won over completely by any party,be that US,Russia,China or Japan
> The leadership in Hanoi played it quite smart, unlike the morons in Kiev



Of course the Vietnamese are smart. After all they are an offshoot of Chinese civilization/culture. To me, I see Vietnamese and Chinese belonging to the same race so every time when I see both sides attacking each other about superiority and what not on these forums, it makes me cringe...

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## Beast

JF-17-PAF said:


> Of course the Vietnamese are smart. After all they are an offshoot of Chinese civilization/culture. To me, I see Vietnamese and Chinese belonging to the same race so every time when I see both sides attacking each other about superiority and what not on these forums, it makes me cringe...


This is the side effect of rising nationalist. But some without looking into mirror first before taking about nationalist.


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## terranMarine

JF-17-PAF said:


> Of course the Vietnamese are smart. After all they are an offshoot of Chinese civilization/culture. To me, I see Vietnamese and Chinese belonging to the same race so every time when I see both sides attacking each other about superiority and what not on these forums, it makes me cringe...


same race? lol i think not

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## Rechoice

Beast said:


> Vietnam joining China led AIIB is a first sign of vietnam dependent on China. If you are not happy, don't join. You can live in delusion but that will not deny the fact of China leverage on vietnam.



does it mean that Russia and other Europa countries joined to AIIB is dependent from China ? I can tell you that JBIC is biggest fund donor for Vietnam with low rate for infra structure.

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## terranMarine

Beast said:


> Vietnam joining China led AIIB is a first sign of vietnam dependent on China. If you are not happy, don't join. You can live in delusion but that will not deny the fact of China leverage on vietnam.



they can always depend on TPP and ditch AIIB if these morons think they ain't depending on China for economic growth

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## Beast

Rechoice said:


> does it mean that Russia and other Europa countries joined to AIIB is dependent from China ? I can tell you that JBIC is biggest fund donor for Vietnam with low rate for infra structure.


As I say, you can don't join. Please don't stick to AIIB like pest.  but fact is, you can't.

Russia and Europe are indeed needed the chinese investment if not why would europe defied their old time allies US to join China?

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## Rechoice

Beast said:


> As I say, you can don't join. Please don't stick to AIIB like pest.  but fact is, you can't.
> 
> Russia and Europe are indeed needed the chinese investment if not why would europe defied their old time allies US to join China?



OK we, can't. 

but we can watch how Jews in west could manipulate and play with Chinese wallet.


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## Beast

Rechoice said:


> OK we, can't.
> 
> but we can watch how Jews in west could manipulate and play with Chinese wallet.


Jews need to curry favour and say good things to Chinese even before they can touch our money 



BoQ77 said:


> Do you mean AIIB is Chinese tool? Anyway, why we don't move those stuffs into the right thread?
> This thread is not about AIIB.


Now then you realized it? There are many articles written about purpose of AIIB. Go google it!


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## scholseys

Eurasiareview is full of writers with wild imaginations.


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## Rechoice

xunzi said:


> The little Vietnam look like a worm if you know what I mean. LOL



@Hu Songshan Pls do something with this Chinese guy.

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## Indos

Rechoice said:


> how about Chinese Indonesian ? their opinion is biased too.



Well, Chinese Indonesian can be quite nationalistic. But as far as I know there are not many among them who become prominent journalist or policy Think Tank ( economics, politics, etc). The author above is also not famous in here. This is the first time I saw Indian Indonesian journalist, usually Indian Indonesian are trader.

Some Chinese Indonesian who is seen here as pro China is Marie J Pangestu (former trade minister), because of that she was replaced. Many Indonesian are not happy with her policy toward making FTA with Asean countries and also China. (Under Former Soeharto supporter and Islamist party coalition government / Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono administration)







But we love Kwik Kian Gie, Economist, and former Economic and trade coordinator Minister under Abdurrahman Wahid administration ( under Former Soeharto supporter and Islamist party coalition government ). This is the most respected Chinese Indonesian in our country,






Kwik Kian Gie

Another respected Chinese Indonesian is a Shariah economic expert Syafii Antonio, he is also a stong figure as an Ulama (Muslim preacher). In Indonesia there are many Ulama comes from professionals background. For this man, he will favor his own country also. No doubt, even his wife is a Minangkabau (native)






Syafii Antonio

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## Rechoice

Beast said:


> Jews need to curry favour and say good things to Chinese even before they can touch our money
> 
> 
> Now then you realized it? There are many articles written about purpose of AIIB. Go google it!



FED president is Jew, she know well how to do with this, to be manipulated simply with paper USA's bond on market, which is collected by China.

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## Lure

BoQ77 said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam
> _
> 
> *US, Vietnam Gear Up To Build Stronger Ties To Take On China – Analysis*
> March 27, 2015 Eurasia Review
> 
> By Veeramalla Anjaiah*
> 
> After having strengthened economic and political relations during the last two decades, the United States and Vietnam have now embarked on a new course to deepen the bilateral cooperation in new areas such as law enforcement, transnational crimes, maritime security and cyber security.
> 
> This year both countries are celebrating the 20th anniversary of normalization of diplomatic relations. As part of the commemoration of this historic event, Vietnam’s Public Security Minister Tran Dai Quang visited the US last week and met with several key senior officials and senators, including the US Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson and Republican Senator John McCain.
> 
> During his week-long historic visit, Minister Quang, a politburo member of the Vietnam’s communist party and a powerful official in the Vietnamese government, expressed his satisfaction and happiness about the progress in cooperation between both countries in the fields of politics, diplomacy, economy, science and technology, education, environment, health, humanitarian issues, defense and security.
> 
> Basically, the main purpose of the visit was to promote the existing comprehensive partnership between the two countries on one side and explore more avenues for cooperation in the new fields on the other. T*he comprehensive partnership agreement was signed in 2013. Indonesia signed the similar agreement with the US in 2010*.
> 
> While meeting Johnson, Quang discussed the possible cooperation in law enforcement, information sharing, transnational threats, human trafficking, intellectual property rights, maritime and cyber security.
> 
> Quang also signed a letter of agreement with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) regarding the transfer of DNA testing software.
> 
> During the Vietnam war, Americans dropped more than 7 million tons of bombs on Vietnamese people and more than three million people were killed in the entire war. But today Americans and Vietnamese are good friends and their countries on a fast track to become strategic partners. Vietnamese people have forgotten the bloody past and openly welcomed Americans. We can see today Starbucks, McDonalds, CFC outlets in major Vietnamese towns and cities.
> 
> Perhaps, the rising of China, both economically and militarily, might lead to the birth of this strange relationship between former foes.* Indonesia, the de facto leader of ASEAN, has relatively good relationship with the world’s sole power. But now Vietnam is emerging as an important partner of the US in the region, outperforming the US traditional allies the Philippines and Thailand.*
> 
> Vietnam says economic and geopolitical interests are the main reasons behind its rapidly growing relations with the US while the US considers Vietnam as a strategic partner and a possible bulwark against China under its so-called pivot or rebalancing toward Asia.
> 
> “Economic trade ties continue to stay at the heart of bilateral relations, serving both as the cornerstone of, and an engine for the overall relationship,” Vietnamese President Truong Tan Sang said during his historic visit to Washington in 2013.
> 
> *Indonesia’s relations with the US are much older than Vietnam’s. But why the US now favors Vietnam more than Indonesia, especially in areas like trade, investment, defense, security and even in the field of nuclear science.* Big powers always put Indonesia in a different category in the game of diplomacy and geopolitics, thanks to the archipelagic nation’s “free and active foreign policy” and its big size.
> 
> Despite of its democratic credentials, giant size and rising middle class, Indonesia has failed to reap rewards from the rapidly growing US-ASEAN relations. The bilateral trade didn’t see a significant growth as the trade was hovering between US$23 billion to $27 billion during the last five years.
> 
> Both exports and imports were rather stagnant. Based on the Central Statistics Agency’s data Indonesia’s bilateral trade with the US stood at $24.70 billion in 2014, almost the same in 2013. Indonesia’s exports have been on the decline since 2010 due to wrong policies, strategies and sharp decline in commodity prices.
> 
> Though American investors are interested in Indonesia, they are reluctant to invest heavily in Indonesia due to numerous problems ranging from legal certainty, corruption, taxation, to labor problems and land acquisition.
> 
> On the other hand, during the last five years, the bilateral trade between Vietnam and its former foe was more than doubled, *surging from $14.2 billion in 2010 to $36.30 billion in 2014. Vietnam is today ASEAN’s biggest exporter, according to the US Census Bureau data, to the US with $30.58 billion of exports last year.*
> 
> Vietnam is the fourth biggest trading partner of the US among ASEAN members. With $46.99 billion trade, tiny Singapore became the biggest trading partner of the US in ASEAN and Malaysia ($43.57 billion) and Thailand ($38.91 billion) stood second and third respectively. Indonesia is the fifth biggest trading partner of the US in ASEAN.
> 
> With its low labor costs, resources, bold economic and political reforms, incentives for investors and relatively better infrastructure, Vietnam has become a darling of foreign manufacturers in recent years.
> 
> *Several American giants like Ford, Apple, Intel and General Electrics invested heavily in Vietnam. South Korea’s Samsung found Vietnam as a favorite place for investments than Indonesia and invested $11 billion in the electronic sector in Vietnam during last two years*. Perhaps, Indonesia, whose manufacturing sector is in bad shape, can learn from Vietnam’s experience.
> 
> Moreover,* Vietnam is on the course to become the first country in Southeast Asia to acquire nuclear knowledge from the US. The US has agreed to provide nuclear know how to Hanoi to build a nuclear power plant in the near future*.
> 
> In line with the growing friendship and affection between the two nations, Obama recently eased a ban on providing weapons to Vietnam. It was a partial lifting of the ban and now Hanoi is asking for the removal of complete ban, given its tense relations with its neighbor China over South China Sea dispute.
> 
> This year,* two important visits – first Vietnam’s Communist Party Secretary-General Nguyen Phu Trong’s visit to the US and later President Obama’s visit to Vietnam* – are set to reshape the entire gamut of bilateral relations and pave the way for much awaited strategic partnership.
> 
> Another landmark in the both countries’ ties will be when Vietnam officially joins the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade pact later this year.* The bilateral trade will easily reach $100 billion in two to three years*. More and more investments will pour in not only from the US but also from other TPP member countries.
> 
> _*The writer is an author and a senior journalist living in Jakarta._



I'm tired of this articles about how US supports country X, Y or Z to counter balance China in Asia. Than those countries X, Y, Z (you name it India, Vietnam etc.) should be thanking to China's rise for the few pieces of internation dignity that they recieve from other countries especially from west. 

Because we all know that how west actually looks down on Vietnam or India. But I guess that's not their problem.

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## Rechoice

Indos said:


> Well, Chinese Indonesian can be quite nationalistic. But as far as I know there are not many among them who become prominent journalist or policy Think Tank ( economics, politics, etc). The author above is also not famous in here. This is the first time I saw Indian Indonesian journalist, usually Indian Indonesian are trader.
> 
> Some Chinese Indonesian who is seen here as pro China is Marie J Pangestu (former trade minister), because of that she was replaced. Many Indonesian are not happy with her policy toward making FTA with Asean countries and also China. (Under Former Soeharto supporter and Islamist party coalition government / Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono administration)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we love Kwik Kian Gie, Economist, and former Economic and trade coordinator Minister under Abdurrahman Wahid administration ( under Former Soeharto supporter and Islamist party coalition government ). This is the most respected Chinese Indonesian in our country,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kwik Kian Gie
> 
> Another respected Chinese Indonesian is a Shariah economic expert Syafii Antonio, he is also a stong figure as an Ulama (Muslim preacher). In Indonesia there are many Ulama comes from professionals. For this man, he will favor his own country also. No doubt, even his wife is a Minangkabau (native)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syafii Antonio




Thanks for your information.



Lure said:


> I'm tired of this articles about how US supports country X, Y or Z to counter balance China in Asia. Than those countries X, Y, Z (you name it India, Vietnam etc.) should be thanking to China's rise for the few pieces of internation dignity that they recieve from other countries especially from west.
> 
> Because we all know that how west actually looks down on Vietnam or India. But I guess that's not their problem.



don't trust on anti USA propaganda of China. in critic situation China will turn back to be by side of USA like in the past..

In this moment China is the biggest funder for US military activities in Middle East with hug amount of Bonds of USA china has been collocted.

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## BoQ77

Lure said:


> I'm tired of this articles about how US supports country X, Y or Z to counter balance China in Asia. Than those countries X, Y, Z (you name it India, Vietnam etc.) should be thanking to China's rise for the few pieces of internation dignity that they recieve from other countries especially from west.
> 
> Because we all know that how west actually looks down on Vietnam or India. But I guess that's not their problem.



the title created by its own author, actually the content seem not link to any counter balance China...
And the received countries don't care about what purpose US aim to.

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## hans

In fact, US and China conflict will only benefit others like Japan, EU, Russia..
So China is now pushing US to give up some part like SEA, Japan, 
And then China will be a good partner of US.
US and China can set up G2 to control the world together..
Pacific is big enough to hold two super power like US and China..



Rechoice said:


> Thanks for your information.
> don't trust on anti USA propaganda of China. in critic situation China will turn back to be by side of USA like in the past..
> 
> In this moment China is the biggest funder for US military activities in Middle East with hug amount of Bonds of USA china has been collocted.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

Rechoice said:


> in critic situation China will turn back to be by side of USA like in the past..


got to say that‘s pretty insightful，China and US are indeed natural allies， geopolitically speaking
The anti-China campaign are mostly led by Japan，with only India so keen to follow
China is cool for ASEAN countries getting Japanese money，in fact， the more the merrier

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## William Hung

Beast said:


> If China in a fit of anger or playing politics, China can slow custom import export from vietnam like few years ago where Vietnam import food stranded and rot at border.



Very true. China has also played similar games against the Philippines (banana) and Japan (rare earth). And because of this VN and other countries don't want to be dependent on China. I remembered a Burmese member said his biggest concern about China is not the rebels but being too economically dependent on China.



Beast said:


> The fact vietnam joins AIIB that she in need of money for infrastructure building which only China can provide the money and expertise. Japan and US are going to charge vietnam for an arm or leg while China is the only way be able to build up vietnam economy reasonably.



There is some truth in the second part. With the first part, VN will happily accept cheap loans from anyone. The question is, will China be able to gain any political favours or concession back? Judging by history, I'm not sure if China can.



Lure said:


> I'm tired of this articles about how US supports country X, Y or Z to counter balance China in Asia. Than those countries X, Y, Z (you name it India, Vietnam etc.) should be thanking to China's rise for the few pieces of internation dignity that they recieve from other countries especially from west.
> 
> Because we all know that how west actually looks down on Vietnam or India. But I guess that's not their problem.



My friend, why are you "tired" of these articles? I can only remember 2 or 3 threads with articles about US supporting X country to counter China, and my memory could even be wrong. In fact, on the first page of this section, I don't see any other thread created with such articles at all.

And no one here is talking about dignity and and who's looking down on whom. Please don't project your own thoughts onto others. This thread is about the US-VN relationship, and I've already given some hints that even if there are no SCS disputes or even if China doesn't exist, the US will still want a closer relationship with VN.

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## xunzi

Yorozuya said:


> Very true. China has also played similar games against the Philippines (banana) and Japan (rare earth). And because of this VN and other countries don't want to be dependent on China. I remembered a Burmese member said his biggest concern about China is not the rebels but being too economically dependent on China.


It doesn't matter which side you join, West or East, when your country behave inappropriately, you will get sanction. 




Yorozuya said:


> There is some truth in the second part. With the first part, VN will happily accept cheap loans from anyone. The question is, will China be able to gain any political favours or concession back? Judging by history, I'm not sure if China can.


We already did, evidence by political concession in the riq deployment. You did nothing.




Yorozuya said:


> My friend, why are you "tired" of these articles? I can only remember 2 or 3 threads with articles about US supporting X country to counter China, and my memory could even be wrong. In fact, on the first page of this section, I don't see any other thread created with such articles at all.


Nobody cares about Vietnam. The reason the West even bother to write articles about Vietnam is because of your involvement in dispute with China. Look at country that doesn't have dispute with us, Lao, Cambodia, etc... how often do you see them in the press and make Western Analysts try to cozy up to them? 



Yorozuya said:


> And no one here is talking about dignity and and who's looking down on whom. Please don't project your own thoughts onto others. This thread is about the US-VN relationship, and I've already given some hints that even if there are no SCS disputes or even if China doesn't exist, the US will still want a closer relationship with VN.


The US seeks relationship that expand their national interest. You are not that important to the US that make them die for you. Fact but the truth must be spoken to awake the dreamer. Hate to break the bad news to you, my friend. All this counterbalance will do nothing to shape our geopolitical interest. It is like a fruit fly, annoying to our ears but won't be a game changer if you get the click. LOL


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## BoQ77

xunzi said:


> Nobody cares about Vietnam. The reason the West even bother to write articles about Vietnam is because of your involvement in dispute with China. Look at country that doesn't have dispute with us, Lao, Cambodia, etc... how often do you see them in the press and make Western Analysts try to cozy up to them?
> 
> 
> The US seeks relationship that expand their national interest. You are not that important to the US that make them die for you. Fact but the truth must be spoken to awake the dreamer. Hate to break the bad news to you, my friend. All this counterbalance will do nothing to shape our geopolitical interest. It is like a fruit fly, annoying to our ears but won't be a game changer if you get the click. LOL



This article from Jakarta by Indonesian, not from Hanoi and by Vietnamese.
If you read the article, you must find out that Vietnamese leaders only focus on economic aspects while avoid the direct relation with other purpose as "US considered" part
And the author use reliable statistics on trading, export ...to support his argument.

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## William Hung

xunzi said:


> It doesn't matter which side you join, West or East, when your country behave inappropriately, you will get sanction.



So you agree that China can and will turn against VN whenever China is not happy with VN.



> We already did, evidence by political concession in the riq deployment. You did nothing.



What political concession? VN did not concede any territory to China after the skirmish. On the contrary, VN openly supports the Philippines tribunal case and continue to diplomatically reject China's claim even after the rig was removed. I'm afraid you don't know what a political concession is. More importantly, China removed the rig earlier than it first declared. Only an Ah Q mentality could see this as a Chinese victory and a political concession from VN.




> Nobody cares about Vietnam...blah blah blah..



Then what are you doing here in this thread? Get out then LOL. why bother "waking" somebody up if you don't care about that person? It seems like you are the member that cared about VN the most since you are part of those very few Chinese members that always appear in a Viet thread.



> The US seeks relationship that expand their national interest. You are not that important to the US that make them die for you. Fact but the truth must be spoken to awake the dreamer. Hate to break the bad news to you, my friend. All this counterbalance will do nothing to shape our geopolitical interest. It is like a fruit fly, annoying to our ears but won't be a game changer if you get the click. LOL



You care too much about the Vietnamese. No one here (except for Lure) has mentioned about the US counterbalancing China. The article was written by a non-Vietnamese about the US-VN relationship so what are you whining about? You are thinking too much about Vietnam LOL.

I suggest you stay out of this thread otherwise I might think you are having an unhealthy obsession with Vietnam.

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## Rechoice

hans said:


> In fact, US and China conflict will only benefit others like Japan, EU, Russia..
> So China is now pushing US to give up some part like SEA, Japan,
> And then China will be a good partner of US.
> US and China can set up G2 to control the world together..
> Pacific is big enough to hold two super power like US and China..



what do you think about China _pushing US to give up some part like SEA, Japan_, ? What China can do when S Korea, Japan and Philippine is ally of USA now officially, then they do yearly military exersives in front of your nose.

I reminder you that, in jungle or forest it doésn't existed two tiger to be boss. such tigers would like to be boss, have to fight untill die or one of two is ran away.

Pacific ocean is big enough, it said by Madam Clinton, it mean China can go to middle òf pacific ocean where no one claim his own sea territory there.



utp45 said:


> got to say that‘s pretty insightful，China and US are indeed natural allies， geopolitically speaking
> The anti-China campaign are mostly led by Japan，with only India so keen to follow
> China is cool for ASEAN countries getting Japanese money，in fact， the more the merrier



You said that _China and US are indeed natural allies， geopolitically speaking. _

OK. Your analogy apply for all country in Asia too.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

Rechoice said:


> OK. Your analogy apply for all country in Asia too.


Yes but..only the more influential countries are the ones really matter in the US eyes.Usually choosing between the top two regional power，depend on the strategy，which is containing，offshore balancing，or projecting influence

with Japan being a Sea Power same as US，They are hardly “natural allies”.If let loose，an expanding Japan will eventually find a lot more conflict with US than their common interests,As the progress of WW2 clearly exhibited.

An influential Continental Power is a more fitted ally to a Sea Power,Japan,which lacks continental influence,is only good for offshore balancing，much like the UK

That is why in the time of crisis, people usually find China and US on the same side,they are perfect for each other，at least in theory

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## Mughal-Prince

Ooh yes please Take On China Please. Nonsense!


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## TheTruth

"Veeramalla Anjaiah"

A serpent will be a serpent no matter where its born.

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## frequency

Yorozuya said:


> Very true. China has also played similar games against the Philippines (banana) and Japan (rare earth). And because of this VN and other countries don't want to be dependent on China. I remembered a Burmese member said his biggest concern about China is not the rebels but being too economically dependent on China.
> 
> 
> 
> There is some truth in the second part. With the first part, VN will happily accept cheap loans from anyone. The question is, will China be able to gain any political favours or concession back? Judging by history, I'm not sure if China can.
> 
> 
> 
> My friend, why are you "tired" of these articles? I can only remember 2 or 3 threads with articles about US supporting X country to counter China, and my memory could even be wrong. In fact, on the first page of this section, I don't see any other thread created with such articles at all.
> 
> And no one here is talking about dignity and and who's looking down on whom. Please don't project your own thoughts onto others. This thread is about the US-VN relationship, and I've already given some hints that even if there are no SCS disputes or even if China doesn't exist, the US will still want a closer relationship with VN.



Vietnam is a bada$$. US learnt a lot from the Vietnam war. American weapons and fighting tactics were mostly derived/experienced from the Vietnam war. Precision missiles., smart bombs, etc were built to reduce civilian casualties caused during the Vietnam war.

To other people who don't know Vietnam and US relation.
Don't hate Vietnamese people, they fought hard and strong to defend its land. Over 2 million Vietnamese sacrifices their lives for unification of North and South. Something North and South Korea unable to achieve.

Nobody knows the Vietnam war better than the Viet and American.

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## liubang

utp45 said:


> Vietnam won't be won over completely by any party,be that US,Russia,China or Japan
> The leadership in Hanoi played it quite smart, unlike the morons in Kiev



I take this as a compliment. And that is how the game should play always.



xunzi said:


> Nobody cares about Vietnam. The reason the West even bother to write articles about Vietnam is because of your involvement in dispute with China.



>__< In term of defense maybe, but in term of politics and economy. Vietnam certainly is more of a presence than say 20 years ago.



JF-17-PAF said:


> Of course the Vietnamese are smart. After all they are an offshoot of Chinese civilization/culture. To me, I see Vietnamese and Chinese belonging to the same race so every time when I see both sides attacking each other about superiority and what not on these forums, it makes me cringe...



Well it goes back a long long time. And is a very touchy subject to people including me. It is the vietnamese politics and identity for so so long that "we are not chinese." With such mantra, Vietnam had survived for the the last 1000 years. Even the whole thing about Vietnam being an East Asian in term of culture, irk some people off (some vietnamese, some non viet). It is the way it is.

I am just glad what Ho Chi Minh want is starting to realize. He wants Vietnam can proudly stood on its feet among the countries of the world (sigh, I can't find the original quote). It is still a long way away. But the progress of recent years is just amazing. We have to learn to those that are ahead of us whether it is Thailand, or Singapore, or Japan, or South Korea, or even China. Learn from their mistakes, their failures, and learn from what they do correctly.

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## frequency

liubang said:


> I take this as a compliment. And that is how the game should play always.
> 
> 
> 
> >__< In term of defense maybe, but in term of politics and economy. Vietnam certainly is more of a presence than say 20 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it goes back a long long time. And is a very touchy subject to people including me. It is the vietnamese politics and identity for so so long that "we are not chinese." With such mantra, Vietnam had survived for the the last 1000 years. Even the whole thing about Vietnam being an East Asian in term of culture, irk some people off (some vietnamese, some non viet). It is the way it is.
> 
> I am just glad what Ho Chi Minh want is starting to realize. He wants Vietnam can proudly stood on its feet among the countries of the world (sigh, I can't find the original quote). It is still a long way away. But the progress of recent years is just amazing. We have to learn to those that are ahead of us whether it is Thailand, or Singapore, or Japan, or South Korea, or even China. Learn from their mistakes, their failures, and learn from what they do correctly.



Hate and jealousy could only bring Vietnam to a stronger feet. The Vietnamese mindsets are already engraved in its soul. Natural survival instinct kicks in when there is a present of danger.


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## hans

It depends how much US want to spend on China..
If US spend too much against China, EU or Russia will replace US`s position..
US target is to maintain the global leader, not to fight against single country.
I would say US will be clever enough to give up something and avoid great conflict between two super power.



Rechoice said:


> what do you think about China _pushing US to give up some part like SEA, Japan_, ? What China can do when S Korea, Japan and Philippine is ally of USA now officially, then they do yearly military exersives in front of your nose.
> 
> I reminder you that, in jungle or forest it doésn't existed two tiger to be boss. such tigers would like to be boss, have to fight untill die or one of two is ran away.
> 
> Pacific ocean is big enough, it said by Madam Clinton, it mean China can go to middle òf pacific ocean where no one claim his own sea territory there.
> 
> 
> 
> You said that _China and US are indeed natural allies， geopolitically speaking. _
> 
> OK. Your analogy apply for all country in Asia too.


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## Beast

frequency said:


> Hate and jealousy could only bring Vietnam to a stronger feet. The Vietnamese mindsets are already engraved in its soul. Natural survival instinct kicks in when there is a present of danger.


Nationalism is useless without strength.

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## Rechoice

hans said:


> It depends how much US want to spend on China..
> If US spend too much against China, EU or Russia will replace US`s position..
> US target is to maintain the global leader, not to fight against single country.
> I would say US will be clever enough to give up something and avoid great conflict between two super power.



US no need to spend money to counter China in this moment, just strengthen relation with his ally in Asia and other countries in ASEAN and India. EU and Russia never could take a position of US in the world.

US could attack any country if its danger for position of US in the world. Looks at Irak, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan.


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## hans

You mean Philippine? Can they counter China??
If US put too much resource to counter China and become weak, EU is most likely to replace US.
Russia also have chance.
Never forget China is a super power that these small countries cannot match.
PLA Force in Hainan island can eliminate all Vietnam or Philippine navy and air force.
If US want to defeat China, it need to put all its power, wasting so much money, and finally replaced by EU...



Rechoice said:


> US no need to spend money to counter China in this moment, just strengthen relation with his ally in Asia and other countries in ASEAN and India. EU and Russia never could take a position of US in the world.
> 
> US could attack any country if its danger for position of US in the world. Looks at Irak, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan.


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## Rechoice

hans said:


> You mean Philippine? Can they counter China??
> If US put too much resource to counter China and become weak, EU is most likely to replace US.
> Russia also have chance.
> Never forget China is a super power that these small countries cannot match.
> PLA Force in Hainan island can eliminate all Vietnam or Philippine navy and air force.
> If US want to defeat China, it need to put all its power, wasting so much money, and finally replaced by EU...



China have to face with US when China invade in to Philippine, bro.


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## hans

WHY invade Philippine?
For 80 million poor people?
We just take our islands back, no interest in other lands..



Rechoice said:


> China have to face with US when China invade in to Philippine, bro.


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## frequency

Beast said:


> Nationalism is useless without strength.



Then tell me how are you going to win a war against Vietnam and its allies without losing the lives of many of Chinese soldiers? Unless they are scrap.

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## Beast

frequency said:


> Then tell me how are you going to win a war against Vietnam and its allies without losing the lives of many of Chinese soldiers? Unless they are scrap.



Lol.. This words are for vietnam and not for China. As if allies will fight for vietnam? Did you take some high end cocaine this morning?

And as if vietnam is invincible without losing a soldier and many PLA will killed fighting vietnam?

Let me ask you one simple question? How many AWACS u have now?

More or less show the huge different between China and vietn military...

I think nationalism without strength is useless is really applicable on you.


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## xunzi

Yorozuya said:


> So you agree that China can and will turn against VN whenever China is not happy with VN.


When and if you behave inappropriately and threaten our interest, we will do what is right to safeguard security and regional peace.



> What political concession? VN did not concede any territory to China after the skirmish. On the contrary, VN openly supports the Philippines tribunal case and continue to diplomatically reject China's claim even after the rig was removed. I'm afraid you don't know what a political concession is. More importantly, China removed the rig earlier than it first declared. Only an Ah Q mentality could see this as a Chinese victory and a political concession from VN.


This is the first time I heard a person believe we lost the oil rig faceoff. LOL Almost every analysts wrote article at the time claiming we left on our term. Plain simple, we save your face from further humiliation. Your concession is not to join Philippine tribunal case. You think paying lip service to the Filipino will change outcome? Substance is what matter, my friend. No you didn't openly supports the Philippines. You wrote a letter to the UN tribunal telling that them to protect your interest in that case.



> Then what are you doing here in this thread? Get out then LOL. why bother "waking" somebody up if you don't care about that person? It seems like you are the member that cared about VN the most since you are part of those very few Chinese members that always appear in a Viet thread.


Do you think I would be interest in this thread title doesn't contain China in it?




> You care too much about the Vietnamese. No one here (except for Lure) has mentioned about the US counterbalancing China. The article was written by a non-Vietnamese about the US-VN relationship so what are you whining about? You are thinking too much about Vietnam LOL.
> 
> I suggest you stay out of this thread otherwise I might think you are having an unhealthy obsession with Vietnam.


I'm putting you little Vietnamese in your own space and place. Like I said, nobody cares about Vietnam if it doesn't contain China in it. Post some Vietnamese news without China and see how many people interesting in commenting. LOL

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## Rechoice

hans said:


> WHY invade Philippine?
> For 80 million poor people?
> We just take our islands back, no interest in other lands..



there is no china's islands, china stolen with force recently.

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## BoQ77

@Oscar , @Hu Songshan , @Horus

Please help to clean up this thread.
The thread mainly focus on trade and export, not war.



BoQ77 said:


> .... Perhaps, the rising of China, both economically and militarily, might lead to the birth of this strange relationship between former foes.* Indonesia, the de facto leader of ASEAN, has relatively good relationship with the world’s sole power. But now Vietnam is emerging as an important partner of the US in the region, outperforming the US traditional allies the Philippines and Thailand.*





> Vietnam says economic and geopolitical interests are the main reasons behind its rapidly growing relations with the US while the US considers Vietnam as a strategic partner and a possible bulwark against China under its so-called pivot or rebalancing toward Asia.
> “Economic trade ties continue to stay at the heart of bilateral relations, serving both as the cornerstone of, and an engine for the overall relationship,” Vietnamese President Truong Tan Sang said during his historic visit to Washington in 2013.





> *Indonesia’s relations with the US are much older than Vietnam’s. But why the US now favors Vietnam more than Indonesia, especially in areas like trade, investment, defense, security and even in the field of nuclear science.* Big powers always put Indonesia in a different category in the game of diplomacy and geopolitics, thanks to the archipelagic nation’s “free and active foreign policy” and its big size._._


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## frequency

Beast said:


> Lol.. This words are for vietnam and not for China. As if allies will fight for vietnam? Did you take some high end cocaine this morning?
> 
> And as if vietnam is invincible without losing a soldier and many PLA will killed fighting vietnam?
> 
> Let me ask you one simple question? How many AWACS u have now?
> 
> More or less show the huge different between China and vietn military...
> 
> I think nationalism without strength is useless is really applicable on you.



You still haven't answer my question. It seems you don't know the answer. You're just an insensitive troll for your people's lives and others.

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## Beast

frequency said:


> You still haven't answer my question. It seems you don't know the answer. You're just a troll.


Answer what question? As if the ASEAN , Japan or US will send warship if vietnam and China fight a war?

If Vietnam and China fight a war, as if Vietnam has a edge over China especially spratly Island war?

Remember south Johnson reef skirmish in 1988? How many vietnamese soldier killed? 

Can't win debate claim other troll? It will only say by vietnamese


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## frequency

Beast said:


> Answer what question? As if the ASEAN , Japan or US will send warship if vietnam and China fight a war?
> 
> If Vietnam and China fight a war, as if Vietnam has a edge especially spratly Island war



So you're saying there will be no war? just all talk. In conclusion, you're just a paper tiger with no real impact.


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## Beast

frequency said:


> So you're saying there will be no war? just all talk. In conclusion, you're just a paper tiger with no real impact.


The one no guts to fight China is vietnam. We are all happy if Vietnam going to start first. It will be a good excuse to teach vietnam a lessons. Want to check out our PLAN Inventory, how many warship and submarine we have? 

You want to pick a fight and you are bound to lose. You are just an egg while China is a rock.


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## Nike

frequency said:


> Then tell me how are you going to win a war against Vietnam and its allies without losing the lives of many of Chinese soldiers? Unless they are scrap.



Which Vietnam allies? as far as i know today, Vietnam only reliable partner is Russia and Russia themselves is in cozy with China


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## frequency

Beast said:


> The one no guts to fight China is vietnam. We are all happy if Vietnam going to start first. It will be a good excuse to teach vietnam a lessons. Want to check out our PLAN Inventory, how many warship and submarine we have?
> 
> You want to pick a fight and you are bound to lose. You are just an egg while China is a rock.



Then you're not as bold as you said you are. If you're so strong, why don't you start a full invasion? Or are you too scared to become the victim? You're in the same position as Vietnam. Someone else is stronger and bigger than you is watching you too. Vietnam is an egg, you're a rock and someone is a diamond.



madokafc said:


> Which Vietnam allies? as far as i know today, Vietnam only reliable partner is Russia and Russia themselves is in cozy with China



You Indonesian has no backbone either.

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## Beast

frequency said:


> Then you're not as bold as you said you are. If you're so strong, why don't you start a full invasion? Or are you too scared to become the victim? You're in the same position as Vietnam. Someone else is stronger and bigger than you is watching you too. Vietnam is an egg, you're a rock and someone is a diamond.



Simply no guts to pick a fight and now claim others are chicken. When China put a oil rig at paracel island where is vietnamese warship?

Currently China is enlarging all our island in spratly island and what did vietnam do?

Who is the chicken now? I will not laugh at your impotent.

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## Reashot Xigwin

frequency said:


> You Indonesian has no backbone either.



No we have something called a *brain*. A conflict with China will benefit no one.

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## Nike

frequency said:


> Then you're not as bold as you said you are. If you're so strong, why don't you start a full invasion? Or are you too scared to become the victim? You're in the same position as Vietnam. Someone else is stronger and bigger than you is watching you too. Vietnam is an egg, you're a rock and someone is a diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> You Indonesian has no backbone either.



And now you can't reasoning with your own premise and instead with verbal cause attack my country. 

As i said which one is Vietnam Ally? Japan? USA? Philippine? neigh, it's not done yet. As Mutual military alliance is not come in a single night like one night stand relationship, they came with mutual interest and mutual respect in which has been tested by numerous chapter story in History. After loosing China support during Sino-Soviet split, indeed Vietnam doesn't have any reliable Allies in region anymore and now you have turn to worst to made enmities against them who have considerable influence over Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Myanmar, must worse China has considerable Naval and Air presence in your own Sea, in summary Vietnam had been surrounded by China since long.

So which one is your Ally today? Which country you can expected from them to dispatch their military might to help you in your dire need like what US did for Kuwait during Operation Dessert storm or like Taiwan get when the tension between Mainland and ROC got upscaled?

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## BoQ77

madokafc said:


> As i said which one is Vietnam Ally? Japan? USA? Philippine? neigh, it's not done yet. As Mutual military alliance is not come in a single night like one night stand relationship, they came with mutual interest and mutual respect in which has been tested by numerous chapter story in History. After loosing China support during Sino-Soviet split, indeed Vietnam doesn't have any reliable Allies in region anymore and now you have turn to worst to made enmities against them who have considerable influence over Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Myanmar, must worse China has considerable Naval and Air presence in your own Sea, in summary Vietnam had been surrounded by China since long.
> So which one is your Ally today? Which country you can expected from them to dispatch their military might to help you in your dire need like what US did for Kuwait during Operation Dessert storm or like Taiwan get when the tension between Mainland and ROC got upscaled?



Vietnam no longer depends on that doctrine, Ms. madokafc !!!


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## Nike

BoQ77 said:


> Vietnam no longer depends on that doctrine, Ms. madokafc !!!



It's not doctrine, and no country wanna to depend their security in the shoulder of other actor. I just asking your friend which one is Vietnam ally, you should read his statement first


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## BoQ77

madokafc said:


> It's not doctrine, and no country wanna to depend their security in the shoulder of other actor. I just asking your friend which one is Vietnam ally, you should read his statement first



personal idea, feel free to discuss.
Let spend few minutes look back Vietnam War.

It's North Vietnam soldiers ( lately the winner ) who fight against South Vietnam and US soldiers ( SVN ally ).
not any Soviet or Chinese soldiers ( as in Korean war ) did that

It's North Vietnam pilots who fly Mig-17, Mig-21 engaged in air combats to American pilots in B-52, F4 Phantom, F-105, ... not Chinese or Soviet pilots ( as in Korean war ) did that.

--------------
Nowaday, Vietnam is adopting 3 Nos : No military alliance ; No foreign military bases in Vietnam ; and No come along with a nation to confront against another nation.

That's why I can't confirm to you, who is the military ally of Vietnam ( officially, No ally )

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## pr1v4t33r

frequency said:


> So you're saying there will be no war? just all talk. In conclusion, you're just a paper tiger with no real impact.




We all have to be careful with what we wish for, especially related to war. Little posturing here and there is okay, but don't push your luck for winning the war. In war, even the winner lose. Strive for peace.

And although we have to be ready for the worst, that is war. But don't wish for war.

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## BoQ77

pr1v4t33r said:


> We all have to be careful with what we wish for, especially related to war. Little posturing here and there is okay, but don't push your luck for winning the war. In war, even the winner lose. Strive for peace.
> 
> And although we have to be ready for the worst, that is war. But don't wish for war.



I'm happy for the competition of trade, export, ... as the subject of this thread.

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## pr1v4t33r

BoQ77 said:


> I'm happy for the competition of trade, export, ... as the subject of this thread.



i agree.


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## SelfServeFive

Georgia and USA team up to fight Russia too!


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> personal idea, feel free to discuss.
> Let spend few minutes look back Vietnam War.
> 
> It's North Vietnam soldiers ( lately the winner ) who fight against South Vietnam and US soldiers ( SVN ally ).
> not any Soviet or Chinese soldiers ( as in Korean war ) did that
> 
> It's North Vietnam pilots who fly Mig-17, Mig-21 engaged in air combats to American pilots in B-52, F4 Phantom, F-105, ... not Chinese or Soviet pilots ( as in Korean war ) did that.
> 
> --------------
> Nowaday, Vietnam is adopting 3 Nos : No military alliance ; No foreign military bases in Vietnam ; and No come along with a nation to confront against another nation.
> 
> That's why I can't confirm to you, who is the military ally of Vietnam ( officially, No ally )


Chinese took part in air defense of Hanoi. Many will killed by American bombers. With Chinese defense , more north vietnamese can be freed up to fight in south.

It was the Chinese gurantee that north vietnam will not be invaded. It was the Chinese food and small arms supplies that ensure war can be continued.


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## LacViet

Beast said:


> Chinese took part in air defense of Hanoi. Many will killed by American bombers. With Chinese defense , more north vietnamese can be freed up to fight in south.
> 
> It was the Chinese gurantee that north vietnam will not be invaded. It was the Chinese food and small arms supplies that ensure war can be continued.



Chinese soldiers were logistic who built the road from China to Vietnam. They were in Langson, Thainguyen and Yenbai. from 1968, they disappeared from North Vietnam.

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## Beast

LacViet said:


> Chinese soldiers were logistic who built the road from China to Vietnam. They were in Langson, Thainguyen and Yenbai. from 1968, they disappeared from North Vietnam.


No, they took part in air defense of vietnam in north. You vietnamese are so ungrateful to even recognised such effort.

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## LacViet

Beast said:


> No, they took part in air defense of vietnam in north. You vietnamese are so ungrateful to even recognised such effort.



don't say like that to Hanoi people. They could have big laugh on you.

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> No, they took part in air defense of vietnam in north. You vietnamese are so ungrateful to even recognised such effort.



the support of China is real. but for the air defense, let me correct you.

Any factory in North at the time also has their air self defense gun. Rarely those guns could shoot down any US aircraft







1968















==========================

This is the real air defense.















_The Mig carrying signs 3426, terror of American pilots ( during 1967-1972 )_

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## Soryu

Beast said:


> Chinese took part in air defense of Hanoi. _*Many will killed by American bombers*_. With Chinese defense , more north vietnamese can be freed up to fight in south.
> 
> It was the Chinese gurantee that north vietnam will not be invaded. It was the Chinese food and small arms supplies that ensure war can be continued.



Not "will" but "were" ... 

China wanted take a part in that war, so they did it !? 
It's China who shake hand with USA, and agreed to bomb Hanoi and Northern Vietnam to stone ages, in 1972, I remind you that.


Beast said:


> The one no guts to fight China is vietnam. We are all happy if Vietnam going to start first. It will be a good excuse to teach vietnam a lessons. Want to check out our PLAN Inventory, how many warship and submarine we have?
> 
> You want to pick a fight and you are bound to lose. You are just an egg while China is a rock.



Boring as ever by Chinese PDF troll ... count the number and you win the war ! Ah-ha! 

You guys 're always so proud about event in 1988, when Vietnam exhaust by Cambodia war (against genocide Khmer-rough was backed by China) and economic-social crisis, China was supported by USA, and Soviet Union was weaken, don't want against two big enemies.

Have no guts !? 
Did we surrender to China !? No

Our Navy at that time was weak, we only had transport ships at scene our troop armed with AK and RPG, and counter PRC warship with big guns.

We hold the line until Chinese troop fired first, and then we fired back. With unbalance firepower, we lost the battle, but PRC can't continue their advance.
And until now, with no ally support in officially, we're till counter China in SCS, at the area where China declared their control from 1974 while Philippines was pushing back into their EEZ.

Just wish so many like you become PRC leaders, that will be great.

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## BoQ77




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## William Hung

@xunzi my dear, your post is so hilarious I don't even know whether you are being serious or just making an April fool's day joke. LOL




xunzi said:


> I'm putting you little Vietnamese in your own space and place. Like I said, nobody cares about Vietnam if it doesn't contain China in it. Post some Vietnamese news without China and see how many people interesting in commenting. LOL



This is really funny. Not only do you often appear in Vietnamese threads that has nothing to do with China, you've also created threads with articles about Vietnam that has nothing to do with China. See for example these threads created by you:

Agent Orange Legacy Scourges Vietnam

With Vietnam's economic advance comes stark income inequality

LOL please do think a little before you type.




xunzi said:


> This is the first time I heard a person believe we lost the oil rig faceoff. LOL Almost every analysts wrote article at the time claiming we left on our term. Plain simple, we save your face from further humiliation. Your concession is not to join Philippine tribunal case.



The first time? This analyst examine several assessments about the oil rig skirmish and agree with those who think China blinked:

Vietnam, China and the Oil Rig Crisis: Who Blinked? | The Diplomat

Now I'm not sure if you are lying or you just don't do much reading. I'm inclined to think the latter because you've previously confused the definition of a fighter's ferry range with its combat radius. Even when we tried to inform you the definition of a combat radius, you still didn't read it and had no clue about it as you then divided it in half to take into account the return flight lol. I think you're not here to debate and learn but just to write some keyboard warrior nonsense to make Internet friends. I think I might be wasting my time.

But here are a few words to debunk your nonsense:

1. Before the oil rig skirmish, no Vietnamese officials has ever officially declared that VN will join the Philippines' arbitration case. So you are deluding yourself with ypur Ah Q victory by thinking that VN was joining the Philippines, but since VN didn't join, it is a Chinese victory. So please provide me some source to prove that VN was going to join the Philippines before you celebrate your strawman Ah Q victory.

2. Your other Ah Q explanation is even more funny. China withdrew the rig earlier than what they've planned because it wants to save face for VN? Ah Q victory. This must be a April Fools joke right?




xunzi said:


> You think paying lip service to the Filipino will change outcome? Substance is what matter, my friend. No you didn't openly supports the Philippines. You wrote a letter to the UN tribunal telling that them to protect your interest in that case.



Vietnam didn't openly supports the Philippines? Really? You do realize that the "letter" they've sent also clearly said they agree with the Philippines that the Tribunal has jurisdiction. Only an Ah Q would selectively ignore this part to write about his moral victory lol. Some Vietnamese PDF'er has previously unfairly labelled other members as Ah Q but I really think I've now found a real Ah Q.

Finally, this is all offtopic as mentioned by BoQ77. So if you want to continue debate about Vietnam giving concessions, then open a new thread and tag me there.

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## frequency

Reashot Xigwin said:


> No we have something called a *brain*. A conflict with China will benefit no one.



Ok, you admit it. You have no backbone. You would rather let someone bigger and stronger than you pick on you like a toy. You would rather let them rape, torture your women. You would rather watch your wife being raped by someone stronger than you. Sounds like you bud. Enjoy your pathetic life you think you have a brain and no gut.



Beast said:


> Simply no guts to pick a fight and now claim others are chicken. When China put a oil rig at paracel island where is vietnamese warship?
> 
> Currently China is enlarging all our island in spratly island and what did vietnam do?
> 
> Who is the chicken now? I will not laugh at your impotent.



You can certainly build a replica of Beijing city on those islands. Hell if I care, but as I said earlier, you don't have the gut to declare a full invasion in Vietnam mainland. You still trying to dodge my question above "If you're so bold, why don't you declare a full invasion into Vietnam?"

"China put a oil rig at paracel island where is vietnamese warship?"
The last time I heard, the Chinese oil rig left the area and went back to China. There was no force required for the Chinese to pack up and leave. I don't see what was the big deal about that. But you still can't answer my question as to "If you're so bold, then why don't you declare a full invasion to Vietnam?"

Calling someone a "chicken" and being a hypocrite at the same time doesn't make you any better. You're just a fool, happy April fools day, cuckoo.



pr1v4t33r said:


> We all have to be careful with what we wish for, especially related to war. Little posturing here and there is okay, but don't push your luck for winning the war. In war, even the winner lose. Strive for peace.
> 
> And although we have to be ready for the worst, that is war. But don't wish for war.



China wants a war, not Vietnam. Do you even know what the Vietnam war was all about? Have you even experienced or being into a country that is war torn for two and a half decades? Of course we all have to be careful. You have been fed by a lot of junk by the Chinese propaganda and trolls on this site. There's some luck in war but it isn't everything to determine winners and losers. I don't think you even know the situation between Vietnam and China and USA and Russia.

Since when Vietnam is striving for a war with China? what on earth are you even talking about.


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## pr1v4t33r

frequency said:


> Ok, you admit it. You have no backbone. You would rather let someone bigger and stronger than you pick on you like a toy. You would rather let them rape, torture your women. You would rather watch your wife being raped by someone stronger than you. Sounds like you bud. Enjoy your pathetic life you think you have a brain and no gut.



Doesn't seems like it. He said that, he would rather let someone bigger and stronger than you pick you like a toy. He would rather let them rape, torture your woman. He would rather watch your wife being rape by someone stronger than you. And he would enjoy watching your pathetic life, since you have only gut and have no brain. Whoever you are.




frequency said:


> China wants a war, not Vietnam. Do you even know what the Vietnam war was all about? Have you even experienced or being into a country that is war torn for two and a half decades? Of course we all have to be careful. You have been fed by a lot of junk by the Chinese propaganda and trolls on this site. There's some luck in war but it isn't everything to determine winners and losers. I don't think you even know the situation between Vietnam and China and USA and Russia.
> 
> Since when Vietnam is striving for a war with China? what on earth are you even talking about.



Everybody preparing for the worst in this region, even indonesia. We strengthen our position on natuna and quietly joining forces with all regional powers to keep any tension down in this region, but advocating for war is garbage. Our position is clear. Indonesia always strive for peace and stability of ASEAN.

Our vietnamese friend sounds quite reasonable, i only quoted your statement asking for real war.

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## frequency

pr1v4t33r said:


> Doesn't seems like it. He said that, he would rather let someone bigger and stronger than you pick you like a toy. He would rather let them rape, torture your woman. He would rather watch your wife being rape by someone stronger than you. And he would enjoy watching your pathetic life, since you have only gut and have no brain. Whoever you are.



I don't have respect for people with no backbone. Those are the kind of people that truly ruin a country. I only respect people that stand up straight and willing to sacrifice everything for his/her passion to protect his/her country and love ones. You know what I mean?




pr1v4t33r said:


> Everybody preparing for the worst in this region, even indonesia. We strengthen our position on natuna and quietly joining forces with all regional powers to keep any tension down in this region, but advocating for war is garbage. Our position is clear. Indonesia always strive for peace and stability of ASEAN.
> 
> Our vietnamese friend sounds quite reasonable, i only quoted your statement asking for real war.



No, that's false. The Chinese is taunting Vietnam into a war. But Vietnamese know better not to be falling into the taunting game the Chinese play and I simply replied to the Chinese back "If they are so bold, why don't they start a full invasion" which is a valid statement to prove that if China is bold enough to do it and it is willing to risk everything they have achieved for near 3 decades to become second to none largest economy in the world.

Why pick on the small guy and belittle him? It's arrogance.

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## pr1v4t33r

frequency said:


> I don't have respect for people with no backbone. Those are the kind of people that truly ruin a country. I only respect people that stand up straight and willing to sacrifice everything for his/her passion to protect his/her country and love ones. You know what I mean?



Self restraint is a sign of strength. We can scream sacrifice here and now since we are not in the position to take the job. At the end, It's the people that will sacrifice everything. Do you claim to represent their voice? If this is your war, then i'll applaud your sacrifice.




frequency said:


> No, that's false. The Chinese is taunting Vietnam into a war. But Vietnamese know better not to be falling into the taunting game the Chinese play and I simply replied to the Chinese back "If they are so bold, why don't they start a full invasion" which is a valid statement to prove that if China is bold enough to do it and it is willing to risk everything they have achieved for near 3 decades to become second to none largest economy in the world.



Taunting game have been played by both side consistently, and we all can understand this, as long as the game kept in the reasonable level. Why they need to start a full invasion? Who's gonna clap and laugh if this horror truly happen?

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## xunzi

Yorozuya said:


> @xunzi my dear, your post is so hilarious I don't even know whether you are being serious or just making an April fool's day joke. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is really funny. Not only do you often appear in Vietnamese threads that has nothing to do with China, you've also created threads with articles about Vietnam that has nothing to do with China. See for example these threads created by you:
> 
> Agent Orange Legacy Scourges Vietnam
> 
> With Vietnam's economic advance comes stark income inequality
> 
> LOL please do think a little before you type.


Those threads are a direct response to one of the Vietnamese troll constant blackmail of China with his China obsession. In fact, I was having very little interest in those articles other than to make fun of Vietnam.





> The first time? This analyst examine several assessments about the oil rig skirmish and agree with those who think China blinked:
> 
> Vietnam, China and the Oil Rig Crisis: Who Blinked? | The Diplomat
> 
> Now I'm not sure if you are lying or you just don't do much reading. I'm inclined to think the latter because you've previously confused the definition of a fighter's ferry range with its combat radius. Even when we tried to inform you the definition of a combat radius, you still didn't read it and had no clue about it as you then divided it in half to take into account the return flight lol. I think you're not here to debate and learn but just to write some keyboard warrior nonsense to make Internet friends. I think I might be wasting my time.
> 
> But here are a few words to debunk your nonsense:
> 
> 1. Before the oil rig skirmish, no Vietnamese officials has ever officially declared that VN will join the Philippines' arbitration case. So you are deluding yourself with ypur Ah Q victory by thinking that VN was joining the Philippines, but since VN didn't join, it is a Chinese victory. So please provide me some source to prove that VN was going to join the Philippines before you celebrate your strawman Ah Q victory.
> 
> 2. Your other Ah Q explanation is even more funny. China withdrew the rig earlier than what they've planned because it wants to save face for VN? Ah Q victory. This must be a April Fools joke right?


Read that article again. There are two sides to the argument. The people who wrote articles on National Interest are notorious for Anti-China so I'm not surprise he said we blink.




> Vietnam didn't openly supports the Philippines? Really? You do realize that the "letter" they've sent also clearly said they agree with the Philippines that the Tribunal has jurisdiction. Only an Ah Q would selectively ignore this part to write about his moral victory lol. Some Vietnamese PDF'er has previously unfairly labelled other members as Ah Q but I really think I've now found a real Ah Q.
> 
> Finally, this is all offtopic as mentioned by BoQ77. So if you want to continue debate about Vietnam giving concessions, then open a new thread and tag me there.


Again, remember the words I said to you. SUBSTANCE. Take us to court or join the Philippines in arbitration, not by paying lip service. LOL

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## Reashot Xigwin

frequency said:


> Ok, you admit it. You have no backbone. You would rather let someone bigger and stronger than you pick on you like a toy. You would rather let them rape, torture your women. You would rather watch your wife being raped by someone stronger than you. Sounds like you bud. Enjoy your pathetic life you think you have a brain and no gut.
> 
> 
> .



Fear mongering at its best & people wonder why Indonesia is regarded as the true leader of ASEAN.


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## BoQ77

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Fear mongering at its best & people wonder why Indonesia is regarded as the true leader of ASEAN.



Asean is not a single country, I admit that Indonesia has the leading role of Asean in politics and military.
There're some others could together with them in those.

You don't have to walk alone, Indonesia !!!

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## Indos

frequency said:


> Ok, you admit it. You have no backbone. *You would rather let someone bigger and stronger than you pick on you like a toy.* You would rather let them rape, torture your women. You would rather watch your wife being raped by someone stronger than you. Sounds like you bud. Enjoy your pathetic life you think you have a brain and no gut.
> .



Read history first before commenting, even if you are just responding some harsh words from Indonesian members here you still need to be honest and fair in your respond. For your information, we shoot USA plane before when that country wanted to separate us from South Maluku island during Soekarno leadership. We also fought Britain and Dutch during our independent war. We fought Britain, Australia, New Zealand in an effort to take Malaysia in 1960's. We sent two submarine for Pakistan to fight against India in 1965. We took back Irian Jaya (West Papua) from Dutch in 1960's. We invaded East Timor in 1975 in a time where so many western nation didn't like that aggressive move. And all those moves were done under civilian leadership (Soekarno) and military one (Soeharto).

Look, I never say something bad about Vietnamese when some of you want to put our country down, but trust me we are a really brave persons. One of the strength of our nation is our faith to our God, as the primary principal in our ideology which is Pancasila ( our ideology) said so in its first pillar. And how come we get afraid of any big country..? It is considered Musrik in Islam, a very big sin. We are just afraid to our lord, ALLAH SWT, and every thing else is *A Weak* entity. It will be very difficult for any country to wage a war against such nation and such soldiers who has such kind of belief, and dont forget we are also a big nation.


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## LacViet

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Fear mongering at its best & people wonder why Indonesia is regarded as the true leader of ASEAN.



It is reported that Indonesia is ready to leave Asean.


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## BoQ77

LacViet said:


> It is reported that Indonesia is ready to leave Asean.



duck news agency


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## LacViet

Indos said:


> Read history first before commenting, even if you are just responding some harsh words from Indonesian members here you still need to be honest and fair in your respond. For your information, we shoot USA plane before when that country wanted to separate us from South Maluku island during Soekarno leadership. We also fought Britain and Dutch during our independent war. We fought Britain, Australia, New Zealand in an effort to take Malaysia in 1960's. We sent two submarine for Pakistan to fight against India in 1965. We took back Irian Jaya (West Papua) from Dutch in 1960's. We invaded East Timor in 1975 in a time where so many western nation didn't like that aggressive move. And all those moves were done under civilian leadership (Soekarno) and military one (Soeharto).
> 
> Look, I never say something bad about Vietnamese when some of you want to put our country down, but trust me we are a really brave persons. One of the strength of our nation is our faith to our God, as the primary principal in our ideology which is Pancasila ( our ideology) said so in its first pillar. And how come we get afraid of any big country..? It is considered Musrik in Islam, a very big sin. We are just afraid to our lord, ALLAH SWT, and every thing else is *A Weak* entity. It will be very difficult for any country to wage a war against such nation and such soldiers who has such kind of belief, and dont forget we are also a big nation.



problem here in this forum is that some Chinese Indonesian member has been talking bad about us.


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## Reashot Xigwin

LacViet said:


> problem here in this forum is that some Chinese Indonesian member has been talking bad about us.



Who? Not me that's for sure.


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## Nike

Brave? doesn't know, but there is no actual parameter to measure them. Actually as a Nation, Indonesia had more wit and much more cunning attitude compared to our looks


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## clibra

Yorozuya said:


> ......their vision will spread to Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and finally Myanmar. Thus, uniting the greater Sub-Mekong region into a cohesive regional power bloc under the auspices of the US......



Viet rename, Viet see, Viet conquer , right ?
Those contries will be atracted by hormone of viet and unite with viet automatically. oh yeah 

opps, I forgot the almighty uncle sam.


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## Carlosa

Come on you guys, cool it, there is no need to quarrel. ASEAN countries should be like brothers, maybe a little issue here and there, but nothing serious.

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## LacViet

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Who? Not me that's for sure.


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## Reashot Xigwin

LacViet said:


>



I'm serious you can check all of my earlier post just to be sure.


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## LacViet

Reashot Xigwin said:


> I'm serious you can check all of my earlier post just to be sure.




Indonesia Navy blow up 3 illegal vietnamese fishing boat | Page 2

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## Reashot Xigwin

LacViet said:


> Indonesia Navy blow up 3 illegal vietnamese fishing boat | Page 2



How so?


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## cirr

*China proposed Wednesday to build an economic corridor linking China, Mongolia and Russia.
*
02.04.2015






Heads of Russia, China to Discuss Silk Road Economic Belt in May

Foreign Minister Wang Yi floated the idea during a meeting in Beijing with his Mongolian counterpart Lundeg Purevsuren.

"There is a huge area for cooperation existing between China, Russia and Mongolia. The construction of the China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor would connect China’s Silk Road Economic Belt to Russia's transcontinental rail plan and Mongolia's Prairie Road program,” the Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

During the meeting Wang Yi held out hope for mutually beneficial interaction with Russia and Mongolia on the three-way “new corridor for cooperation” running across the entire Eurasian continent as a “new platform for the economic development of our three countries.”

China will be working closely with Russia and Mongolia in drawing up a pertinent roadmap and will do whatever it takes to make the project happening.

"We are confident that this would bring economic benefit to our three countries and serve as a major boost to the economic advancement of Eurasia as a whole,” Wang Yi added.

Chinese President Xi Jinping initially proposed the idea of a new Silk Way to link China with Europe and boost the country’s economic ties with Asia and Africa when meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Mongolian President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj on the sidelines of the 14th summit of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization in 2014.


Read more: Beijing Proposes China-Mongolia-Russia Economic Belt / Sputnik International

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## Huaren

Reashot Xigwin said:


> How so?



lol, clearly you have posted the wrong kinds of topic, its like undermining the hard efforts of viets and viet wannabes to spread the glory of their mighty empire on holy crusade to unite ASEAN and beyond against the evil Chinese. Which means to them you will be written off as some "chinese Indonesian member", like they are expecting normal indonesian to be anti china pro vietland by default. ASEAN brotherhood (according to viet interest) ftw!


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## Soryu

Carlosa said:


> Come on you guys, cool it, there is no need to quarrel. ASEAN countries should be like brothers, maybe a little issue here and there, but nothing serious.


Yeah, you're right, Carlos ... we're here for funny chat chit, and some idiots frank & fraud, let the topbrass deal with real issues ...

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## mrfly911

Huaren said:


> lol, clearly you have posted the wrong kinds of topic, its like undermining the hard efforts of viets and viet wannabes to spread the glory of their mighty empire on holy crusade to unite ASEAN and beyond against the evil Chinese. Which means to them you will be written off as some "chinese Indonesian member", like they are expecting normal indonesian to be anti china pro vietland by default. ASEAN brotherhood (according to viet interest) ftw!


Why so serious!


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## Beast

cirr said:


> *China proposed Wednesday to build an economic corridor linking China, Mongolia and Russia.
> *
> 02.04.2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heads of Russia, China to Discuss Silk Road Economic Belt in May



Looks like any discussion involved Mongolia does not included Mongolia side. Russia and China can easily decide Mongolia fate since they are landlocked between these 2 giants. I cant wait for China to get their hands on those anti-China mongolia trash. We will teach them a real lesson what is power.

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## Martian2

The Philippines' Massive Lawfare Blunder in the South China Sea | The National Interest

"*In 1986, the United States openly defied a clear order from the International Court of Justice to withdraw support for the Contras and the mining of harbors in Nicaragua.* Although the U.S. was condemned in the UN General Assembly, the reputational fallout was minimal and quickly forgotten. *In 2008, the U.S. again ignored a clear order of the ICJ by failing to stop an execution of a Mexican national in violation of a treaty obligation.* This time, the U.S. did not even face a negative General Assembly resolution."

"*In 2013, for instance, Russia refused to participate in a hearing before the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS) over its detention of a Dutch ship full of Greenpeace activists protesting its oil drilling activities.* Although the ITLOS ordered Russia to release the activists and return the ship within 30 days of its judgment, Russia ignored the order and waited nearly a year before finally releasing the seized Dutch vessel. Russia suffered little long-standing reputational damage and hosted the Olympics with great fanfare barely two months later with little international fuss."

"*China has (like many other nations) excluded disputes related to maritime boundaries from the dispute settlement processes created by UNCLOS.* So China is probably correct that at least some of the Philippines’ claims, which essentially demand that the tribunal recognize Philippines’ sovereignty rights, are beyond the arbitral tribunal’s competence."

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## TaiShang

Martian2 said:


> The Philippines' Massive Lawfare Blunder in the South China Sea | The National Interest
> 
> "*In 1986, the United States openly defied a clear order from the International Court of Justice to withdraw support for the Contras and the mining of harbors in Nicaragua.* Although the U.S. was condemned in the UN General Assembly, the reputational fallout was minimal and quickly forgotten. *In 2008, the U.S. again ignored a clear order of the ICJ by failing to stop an execution of a Mexican national in violation of a treaty obligation.* This time, the U.S. did not even face a negative General Assembly resolution."
> 
> "*In 2013, for instance, Russia refused to participate in a hearing before the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS) over its detention of a Dutch ship full of Greenpeace activists protesting its oil drilling activities.* Although the ITLOS ordered Russia to release the activists and return the ship within 30 days of its judgment, Russia ignored the order and waited nearly a year before finally releasing the seized Dutch vessel. Russia suffered little long-standing reputational damage and hosted the Olympics with great fanfare barely two months later with little international fuss."
> 
> "*China has (like many other nations) excluded disputes related to maritime boundaries from the dispute settlement processes created by UNCLOS.* So China is probably correct that at least some of the Philippines’ claims, which essentially demand that the tribunal recognize Philippines’ sovereignty rights, are beyond the arbitral tribunal’s competence."



Besides, China has made it very clear from the beginning that UNCLOS does not apply to historical titles and claims.

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## OrionHunter

What an example the permanent members of the UN Security Council are setting! Lawmakers to lawbreakers! 

No wonder the world has started seeing the UN as a lame duck organization.

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## AndrewJin

OrionHunter said:


> What an example the permanent members of the UN Security Council are setting! Lawmakers to lawbreakers!
> 
> No wonder the world has started seeing the UN as a lame duck organization.


Maybe India's intention to be one of the permanent members is for doing the same lawmaking-lawbreakign stuff.
Best wishes for Modi's regime.

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## SrNair

No we wont break the laws 
even if we have a place in SC 


AndrewJin said:


> Maybe India's intention to be one of the permanent members is for doing the same lawmaking-lawbreakign stuff.
> Best wishes for Modi's regime.


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## AndrewJin

SrNair said:


> No we wont break the laws
> even if we have a place in SC


U cannot stand for Modi regime as "we". I think he is an ambitious politician who is willing to break international laws for the good of India and lead India to a new phase of diplomacy, like having a role in Iranian nuclear issue, Ukraine and other international diplomacy.

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## OrionHunter

AndrewJin said:


> Maybe India's intention to be one of the permanent members is for doing the same lawmaking-lawbreakign stuff.
> Best wishes for Modi's regime.


Do as the Romans do!!


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## TaiShang

OrionHunter said:


> What an example the permanent members of the UN Security Council are setting! Lawmakers to lawbreakers!
> 
> No wonder the world has started seeing the UN as a lame duck organization.



As far as UNCLOS is concerned, no laws are broken as China put an exemption clause before signing it.

But at the end of the day, nothing is international law if the P5 does not say so. That's the reality. I understand why India is dying to join.

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## OrionHunter

TaiShang said:


> As far as UNCLOS is concerned, no laws are broken as China put an exemption clause before signing it.
> 
> But at the end of the day, nothing is international law if the P5 does not say so. That's the reality. I understand why India is dying to join.


We're dying to join to so as to keep you guys in check!!


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## TaiShang

OrionHunter said:


> We're dying to join to so as to keep you guys in check!!



I guess the current configuration: China+Russia vs. UK-US-France is fine and almost dysfunctional. LOL.

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## AndrewJin

TaiShang said:


> I guess the current configuration: China+Russia vs. UK-US-France is fine and almost dysfunctional. LOL.


It's very hard to add another which has no idea to join which side. There is no room for a so-called power to be a fence-sitter, which is only ideal for small countries.

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## TaiShang

AndrewJin said:


> It's very hard to add another which has no idea to join which side. There is no room for a so-called power to be a fence-sitter, which is only ideal for small countries.



Exactly. That's the issue. Nobody wants a third pole just as nobody wants the other side to have an extra ally.

The fact that no UN resolution passed the UNSC during the entire Cold War should tell us something about the "role" the UNSC plays. I like a dysfunctional Security Council than a working one because we have seen how it ended up in Libya when they agreed (China, Russia etc.abstained).

Besides India is not on par with any of the P5. It does not qualify.

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## AndrewJin

TaiShang said:


> Exactly. That's the issue. Nobody wants a third pole just as nobody wants the other side to have an extra ally.
> 
> The fact that no UN resolution passed the UNSC during the entire Cold War should tell us something about the "role" the UNSC plays. I like a dysfunctional Security Council than a working one because we have seen how it ended up in Libya when they agreed (China, Russia etc.abstained).
> 
> Besides India is not on par with any of the P5. It does not qualify.


You know index shows sub-Saharan Africa has less poverty and more GDP than Indian subcontinent. I think sub-Saharan Africa as a whole should be also entitled with a permanent member if India will be one.

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## LacViet

*Why Doesn’t Russia Support China in the South China Sea?*
Strategic and political factors keep Moscow from backing Beijing on the South China Sea disputes.

Recently, tensions over maritime disputes in the South China Sea seem to have surpassed even those caused by the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. China and Vietnam are embroiled in their worst political conflict in decades over an oil drilling platform near the Paracel Islands. The resulting anti-China protests in Vietnam brought China-Vietnam relations to a temporary halt. In addition, the Philippines’ detention of Chinese fishermen has increased the discord between China and the Philippines. With all these frictions occurring at the same time, the situation in the South China Sea has suddenly become very serious.

Against this background, we have seen the U.S. criticize China, express support for Vietnam, and shield the Philippine military. But we have not heard Russia, China’s “strategic partner,” take a stand on the South China Sea disputes, much less publicly support China’s position. This has upset some people in China, who now think that China-Russia relations aren’t as good as previously imagined. Even on the Senkaku/Diaoyu dispute between China and Japan, Russia has kept an ambiguous position. In my eyes, however, this does not mean that Russia’s is of two minds in its relationship with China. Instead, there are complicated political and strategic factors, including four main reasons I will list below.

First, the China-Russia relationship is different from U.S.-Philippines relations. China and Russia are not allies. There is no alliance treaty between them, while there are security treaties between the U.S. and the Philippines as well as between the U.S. and Japan. In an alliance relationship, each side has treaty obligations to provide political and even military support to its partner. In international relations, this is the highest-level type of bilateral relationship. While the China-Russia relationship has some characteristics of a comprehensive strategic partnership, the two parties are not bound by treaty obligations to strive for each other’s international space and national interests.

For a long time, China’s state media has been emphasizing and promoting the positive factors in China-Russia relations, while overseas media also often over-praise this relationship. Sometimes media outlets even posit that China and Russia are “allies” without an alliance treaty. This has led many people to believe that China-Russia political cooperation is boundless, causing a great improvement to China’s security situation. But the facts of international relations tell us that no matter how good the China-Russia relationship is, it won’t influence China’s basic policy in the South and East China Seas. The fact is that China-Russia relations are fundamentally based on mutual interests. The South China Sea is not a place where Russia can expand its interests, nor is it necessary for Russia to interfere in this region absent a formal alliance with China. Chinese people cannot misinterpret the character of China-Russia relations and expect too much from Russia.

Second, Russia enjoys good relations with countries bordering the South China Sea and does not need to offend Southeast Asia for the sake of China. As noted above, Russia is not enthusiastic about publicly backing China on the South China Sea issue. One of the most important reasons for this is that Russia enjoys good relations with many of the Southeast Asian countries.

For example, Russia’s predecessor, the Soviet Union, was historically even closer to Vietnam than it was to China. Because of the USSR’s strong support, Vietnam was able to fight off the United States. Afterward, Vietnam began to undertake anti-China activities, again with Soviet backing. After the collapse of the USSR, Russia inherited this extraordinary friendship. There are no major obstacles to the development of the Russia-Vietnam relationship — there are no serious disputes or conflicts on either the historical or the practical level. And there is one particular area of cooperation between the two countries: defense, where cooperation has stretched from World War II to today. Many of Vietnam’s weapons come from Russia, such as the _Kilo_-class diesel submarines fueling the growth of Vietnam’s navy. In addition, in the second half of 2014 Russia will deliver four Su-30MK2 fighters to Vietnam, which could potentially become weapons in a future China-Vietnam confrontation.

Russia also enjoys a good relationship with the Philippines. For example, two years ago, three Russian navy vessels (including the anti-submarine destroyer _Admiral Panteleyev)_ arrived in Manila for a three-day port visit. According to Russia, this visit helped improve Russia-Philippine ties.

Third, it’s unnecessary for Russia to seek out a direct confrontation with the U.S. over the South China Sea. Currently Russia’s focus is on Europe, especially the Ukraine crisis that has already solidified the confrontation between Russia and the West. Such a problem will be difficult to solve in the short term. Given this, Russia has neither the desire nor the ability to confront the U.S. in the South China Sea.

Besides, the South China Sea disputes are not really conflicts between China and the United States. The disputes stem from disagreements between the South China Sea border countries about the history and the status quo of maritime rights. The U.S. is only an influencing factor, not a determining factor that will determine the future of the situation. In this context, as an outsider and bystander, Russia has even less of a motivation to support China and criticize the U.S.

Fourth, the development of China has actually caused some worries within Russia. To some people in the West, the discord between China and other South China Sea countries could help restrict China’s “expansion” into other regions. In Russia, there has always been some concern that China’s development will lead to the Russian far east being gradually “occupied” by the Chinese, with this vast territory, along with its resources, becoming fodder for China’s development. Although Russian officials are optimistic about the potential for cooperation in the far east, they have never for a moment relaxed their guard against China’s so-called “territorial expansion.”

There is no need for China to feel doubtful and disappointed about Russia’s stance on the South China Sea disputes. Dozens of years of sounding each other out has formed the foundation for tacit agreements and mutual understanding in the China-Russia relationship. For example, on the issue Russia currently takes most seriously, the Crimea question, China refrained from publicly supporting Russia, choosing instead to abstain from the U.N. Security Council vote. However, this doesn’t mean that China opposes Russia’s position. By the same logic, Russia’s neutral stance in the South China Sea disputes doesn’t mean that Russia doesn’t support China. Russia has its own ways of supporting China, such as the recent China-Russia joint military exercises in the East China Sea. This display of deterrence caused envy and suspicion in the West. China and Russia leave each other ample room for ambiguous policies, which is actually proof of an increasingly deep partnership. This arrangement gives both China and Russia the maneuvering space they need to maximize their national interests.

Why Doesn’t Russia Support China in the South China Sea? | The Diplomat

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## Viet

Martian2 said:


> The Philippines' Massive Lawfare Blunder in the South China Sea | The National Interest
> 
> "*In 1986, the United States openly defied a clear order from the International Court of Justice to withdraw support for the Contras and the mining of harbors in Nicaragua.* Although the U.S. was condemned in the UN General Assembly, the reputational fallout was minimal and quickly forgotten. *In 2008, the U.S. again ignored a clear order of the ICJ by failing to stop an execution of a Mexican national in violation of a treaty obligation.* This time, the U.S. did not even face a negative General Assembly resolution."
> 
> "*In 2013, for instance, Russia refused to participate in a hearing before the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS) over its detention of a Dutch ship full of Greenpeace activists protesting its oil drilling activities.* Although the ITLOS ordered Russia to release the activists and return the ship within 30 days of its judgment, Russia ignored the order and waited nearly a year before finally releasing the seized Dutch vessel. Russia suffered little long-standing reputational damage and hosted the Olympics with great fanfare barely two months later with little international fuss."
> 
> "*China has (like many other nations) excluded disputes related to maritime boundaries from the dispute settlement processes created by UNCLOS.* So China is probably correct that at least some of the Philippines’ claims, which essentially demand that the tribunal recognize Philippines’ sovereignty rights, are beyond the arbitral tribunal’s competence."


1. the US is not a member of UNCLOS. nobody is forced to join the convention. nor accept international court of justice.

2. Article 287 gives UNCLOS members the option to accept international arbitration or not. it is not a must. Russia does not want it, nor China. the Philippines accepts international arbitration, so Vietnam.

3. Every member state can make declarations whatever they please. so China. you put exceptions at the time of signing and upon ratification. Vietnam is no difference. we declared Hoang Sa and Truong Sa are our territories. Virtually every member state puts exception to the convention. but these declarations do not change the legal framework of the convention. Article 310.



TaiShang said:


> As far as UNCLOS is concerned, no laws are broken as China put an exemption clause before signing it.
> 
> But at the end of the day, nothing is international law if the P5 does not say so. That's the reality. I understand why India is dying to join.


exactly, at the end of the day, only the fire power matters. the more the better.

Argentina and Spain challenge UK´s occupation of Falkland and Gibraltar. if the pepple of Argentina and Spain want to take back the islands, they must declare war on UK and defeat the british army on battlefields.


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## TaiShang

Russia and China Hold Talks on Broadening Nuclear Cooperation / Sputnik International

*Russia and China are discussing further broadening of bilateral cooperation in the sphere of nuclear development.*

HANOI (Sputnik) – Russia and China are discussing further broadening of bilateral cooperation in the sphere of nuclear development, an anonymous source told journalists on Monday.

"The expansion of cooperation between the Russian Federation and China in the nuclear sphere is being actively discussed," the source said, adding that talks on the construction of the seventh and eighth units of the Tianwan Nuclear Power Station in China are in the final stage. 

The Tianwan Nuclear Power Plant, located on the Chinese coast and considered to be the safest in the world by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), was constructed using Russian nuclear power equipment and service export monopoly Atomstroyexport. It began operation in 2007.







China Should Speed Up Its Nuclear Development to Meet 2020 Goals

The Tianwan nuclear energy complex will comprise eight generating units when it is fully completed.
Russian and Chinese officials signed a major memorandum of understanding in March 2014 that laid the groundwork for future energy cooperation between the two countries.

*The memorandum led to agreements on the joint construction of a series of floating nuclear power plants in China.*

According to CEO of the Russian state nuclear energy corporation Rosatom Sergei Kiriyenko, his company views the Asia-Pacific market as a priority for the Russian nuclear industry.

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## TaiShang

*Learning Mandarin in the tundra - Russia invites China into oil business*
VANKOR/SUZUN OIL FIELDS, Russia | By Vladimir Soldatkin 





Pipelines to be laid to transport oil to Vankor are seen at the Rosneft company owned Suzunskoye oil field, north from the Russian Siberian city of Krasnoyarsk, March 26, 2015.
Reuters/Sergei Karpukhin


(Reuters) - Russia's freezing north has never been the most welcoming place for foreign travelers, and its onshore oil riches have always been state secrets. But when the order comes from the Kremlin to open up, people obey.

Last September, President Vladimir Putin, who has been seeking new markets in Asia for Russian energy exports to replace traditional customers in Europe, announced that he would welcome Chinese investment in Vankor, a vast new oil field in remote eastern Siberia owned by state firm Rosneft.

Since then, delegations from both China and India have been flown out to visit the field in the remote tundra.

Some of the workers, who spend four weeks at a time at the isolated station - where temperatures can fall as low as minus 60 Celcius (minus 76 Fahrenheit) - have duly taken up Mandarin.

"No problem. We will work with the Chinese workers if need be," said Alexei Zyryanov, deputy head of an oil and gas production unit.

All of Vankor's output of 440,000 barrels per day of crude is already shipped east, via the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline, which includes a spur feeding China's northeast.

But a proposed Chinese investment in a stake in the project would go far further than Moscow has ever gone before to luring Beijing into its hydrocarbon industry.

Rarely has Moscow considered offering an ownership stake in such a big strategic onshore deposit to outsiders, despite decades of interest from Western majors. The offer is the more remarkable for being made to China, a rival for decades with which Russia nearly went to war in the 1960s over a border dispute.

Rosneft confirmed that it has reached a draft agreement to sell a 10 percent stake in Vankor to China.

PIVOT TO ASIA

The Kremlin has made much of its "pivot to Asia", seeking new energy markets since Western governments imposed sanctions on Moscow over the Ukraine crisis last year.

*Last year, China overtook Germany as Russia's biggest buyer of crude oil, thanks to Rosneft securing deals to boost supplies via the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline and another crossing Kazakhstan.*

Still, with prices for oil having halved over the past year and natural gas prices also plunging, the Kremlin may find that Beijing is now seeking tough terms for any investment.

Other energy projects that depend on Chinese demand have hit stumbling blocks. Reuters reported on Tuesday that a liquefied natural gas plant on the Pacific Ocean island of Sakhalin, intended to produce fuel for export to Asia, may be delayed by several years.

Last month Reuters reported that a flagship project to build a new pipeline for natural gas from giant new Siberian fields to eastern China may also be delayed.

Vankor is the largest oil discovery in Russia in nearly three decades, key to Russia's policy to find and tap new regions, such as east Siberia, as reserves in west Siberia, the heartland of Russian oil production, are depleting.

"It is a new Kuwait," said Alexander Cherepanov, chief engineer at Rosneft's subsidiary Vankorneft.

Workers pride themselves in being able to operate under extreme conditions.

"Wrenches sometimes break because of the frost," said an oil production operator, Gennady. "In summer, it's fine. You just use a mosquito repellent."

Few inhabited places on earth are as remote. It is an hour by helicopter to the nearest airport, Igarka, and Moscow is nearly 2,800 km (1,750 miles) away.

Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich said last month Russia had overcome a "psychological barrier" and was ready to offer China control over hydrocarbon reserves.

The Energy Ministry predicts the share of oil and oil products sent to Asia will double to 23 percent by 2035, and the East Siberia - Pacific Ocean pipeline will be expanded to 80 million tonnes (1.6 million barrels per day) by 2020.
...

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## Beast

Russian has been very positive about Chinese since the western impose sanction on them after the Ukraine crisis. Most Russian media who used to rubbish about China have stopped doing that and post positive news about China.

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## TaiShang

*Triggers: are China and Russia getting ready to pull them?*
Bill Holter
Miles Franklin
Tue, 07 Apr 2015





© AP Photo/Alexander Zemlianichenko
Russia President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping meet in the Kremlin in Moscow.


The big story regarding the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank was the application by the Israelis. This came just prior to the deadline and of course at the displeasure once again to Washington. Britain was the early defector followed by Germany, France and Italy. Eyebrows were raised when Saudi Arabia made their announcement but I believe what was truly missed was the application by Taiwan. 

If you are old enough to remember, Taiwan was "recognized China" in the eyes of the U.S. Mainland China was "Red" China and not officially recognized by the U.S., the application by Taiwan slipped by with little to no comment. I believe Taiwan's application holds great significance because it means the "elder families" are on board and have given their approval. This is truly big news yet not even spoken of in the West? As I understand it, the application must now be approved, a potential sticking point is the name "Taiwan", this will be very interesting to watch! 

Why is the AIIB such a big deal? There are several reasons but I believe the biggest is because it is a very public piece to the bigger picture. Not only has the bank attracted the Asian countries one would expect, it has attracted many Western countries and even those closest to the U.S.. Going one step further, *ALL of these applications came against U.S. lobbying and were followed by public rebukes from Washington. This was the first instance where the world collectively (including long time U.S. allies) has expressly denied Washington's wishes*. 

The AIIB is only one piece to the puzzle. Another is the clearing system set to directly compete with SWIFT. Yet another is the BRICS bank, and let's not forget the Shanghai physical metals exchange set to go live shortly. Can you see the picture these pieces are putting together? China, Russia and the rest of the world could see what is coming but they have not been ready for it...yet. *Each one of these pieces amounts to preparation for what is to come. When I say "preparation", much of it has been put into place to buffer the East (and rest of the world) from the financial collapse of the West.* 

The clearing system for instance will allow and aid trade to continue between nations should the Western financial system close because of insolvencies or bankruptcies. Call it contingency planning and they know what the contingencies are. Another way to look at these plans is to see the U.S. becoming isolated. The U.S. has been trying to isolate Russia and cut them off from liquidity and trade, China (and Russia) have been isolating the U.S. little by little with each new deal signed but have not pulled any triggers along the way. 

Until now and until these preparations were made, the East could not afford for the West to fall because they would have been taken down with it. *Now, the East has alternatives. There are clearing alternatives, financial ones, new trade deals and routes, and of course even currency alternatives being made ready.* *The U.S. has relied on the dollar being THE only alternative for the world to clear trade, this monopoly is ending.* What I am trying to explain is this, there are now very few preparations left unattended. 

When the U.S. originally began pushing economic and financial sanctions on Russia, I immediately was confused. I was confused because in my mind, Russia had the ability to destroy the U.S.. They had all sorts of options, they could sell their Treasury securities and dollars and simply blow up either the gold or silver markets. They could have defaulted on their debts or gone hot in Syria, there were many possibilities but none ever pursued. Don't get me wrong, Russia would have suffered greatly, but, the U.S. has been wobbly enough for a direct effort to have tipped the scales. Again, because they were not ready, no trigger was ever pulled and I believe we have been "carried" like an aging prize fighter, "they" being the Russians and the Chinese. 

*One last preparation has been longer term, the accumulation of gold. You must ask yourself "why" Russia and China have been accumulating so much gold? The answer is twofold, they understand gold to be money but more importantly they know "where" their purchases were coming from.* This preparation involved not only amassing "money" *but also bleeding the West of their money* (gold). 

It is truly scary to see all of the pieces that have been put into place because they are all locked and loaded. Nearly all of the future plans and programs are now in place. *The only one we are awaiting is for the Shanghai precious metals exchange to go live which should be very soon. This exchange can either be a trigger or a barometer. Should China decide to revalue and reset the system, they can easily do this by marking gold up using their physical exchange.* You can deny this if you will but it is the reality. COMEX and LBMA do not have the inventories to compete with or supply Eastern demand, China will eventually set price whether you want to believe it or not. 

This needs a little explanation and can be defined in one word, "arbitrage". Should China decide on a markup phase (they will) for gold, all they need to do is bid their own physical price higher. Should COMEX or LBMA lag behind this move, traders will then have the incentive to purchase Western "paper" and simply demand physical delivery. The delivered gold (while it lasts) will then be sold at the higher price in China and thus a profit for the trader. This is Mother Nature at her finest and China could not be accused of "busting" the Western exchanges purposely because the arbitragers would be doing the dirty work. *To put the game in perspective, COMEX registered gold inventory amounts to about 2 days worth of Chinese imports, these shelves are nearly bare in the grand scheme! *

They do not even have to act in a direct fashion other than to announce how much gold they have accumulated. *China undoubtedly has already accumulated more than 10,000 tons and probably more like the 20-25,000 tons Alisdair McLeod believes. Were China to announce they hold 10,000 tons of gold, what do you believe the market's reaction will be? *The price of gold will explode on any announcement such as this because the math and common sense behind it. The world (West) will be slapped in the face that China "believes" in gold. The speculation of a gold backed yuan will run rampant AND the natural question of "where did all this gold come from?" will be asked. As I have mentioned several times before, another tactic could be China simply "bidding" for any and all gold at a specified price using their dollar hoard to effectively "set" the new price. This avenue will only be traveled once it becomes apparent that Western vaults have been emptied. 

My point is this, the number of potential triggers is staggering and they don't even necessarily need to be pulled ...but they can now be pulled with less recoil than there would have been previously. *The fiat Ponzi scheme will fail on its own and without any help, however, "triggers" can now be pulled because there are alternatives and contingency plans to continue trade, operations, finance and business in general to the exclusion of dollars and specifically the U.S..* *Think of it as a giant wall being erected around the United States and the West to contain or limit the damage that spills forth. The final bricks to this wall are being put in place!*

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## SelfServeFive

The trigger for total economic collapse I think will be a decisive battlefield defeat for USA.

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## Jlaw

Hmmm...Jews are onboard. Be on high alert. They already control IMF and world bank. Next AIIB?

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China, Iran: In sync*
Published time: April 16, 2015 13:55





S-300 (RIA Novosti / Alexey Danichev)

Over past decades, the pre-fabricated myth of an elusive “Iranian bomb” was never the real issue between the US and Iran; the issue was how to subdue – or “isolate” - a powerful, independent nation that refused to toe the exceptionalist line.

Now that the _“rehabilitation”_ of Iran – at least for some exceptionalists and their minions - may be imminent, pending a nuclear deal to be clinched in June, various Washington factions still can’t get their act together.

The Pentagon has all but admitted the perennial wet dream of neocons and corporate media remains on the table; the military option.

The US Congress will go no holds barred in trying to scotch the deal. The US Senate Foreign Relations Committee unanimously passed a bill that would give Congress the right to interfere with anything related to the removal of sanctions.

Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif faces an even more uphill battle as the _“fact sheet”_ the Obama administration insisted it needed to release to make the case in Washington complicates how the nuclear deal may be received in Iran. To top it off, _“fact sheet”_ or not, the case was not made in Washington after all.

And now the usual suspects – from the State Department to Congress and the Israel lobby – are predictably going bonkers on a demented _“Putin selling missiles to the ayatollahs”_ narrative.

*Got “S”, will sell*
What Russian President Vladimir Putin has just done is to get back to business as usual; even before sanctions are lifted, he signed a decree lifting Moscow’s own ban on the delivery of the S-300 surface-to-air anti-missile system to Tehran, following an $800 million 2010 contract that was not fulfilled due to relentless US pressure. Tehran expects to receive the S-300 by the end of the year.

Moscow's official line has always been that the arms embargo on Iran must be lifted as soon as a final nuclear deal is clinched. The Obama administration insists that sanctions must be removed gradually. Tehran, from Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei on down, is adamant that sanctions must be lifted_“on the day of the deal”_, in Khamenei’s words.

The Supreme Leader had added a conciliatory note though, remarking that, _“if the other side avoids its ambiguity in the [nuclear] talks, it'll be an experience showing it's possible to negotiate with them on other issues.” That remains a galaxy-sized “if”._

Meanwhile, and in sync, the director-general of Russia’s top weapons exporting company Rosoborobexport, Anatoly Isaykin, confirmed China has just bought S-400 missile defense systems from Russia. Beijing is the first in a long list of foreign buyers – as the Russian defense industry is obliged to give priority on the S-400s to the Russian Defense Ministry

Each S-400 is capable of launching up to 72 missiles, engaging up to 36 targets simultaneously, and shield territory from air strikes, strategic, cruise, tactical and operating tactical ballistic missiles, and medium-range ballistic missiles. It’s been operational since 2007, replacing the S-300 systems now sold to Iran.

The crucial issue is that the S-300s will render Iran’s air defenses virtually secure against anything the Pentagon may throw at them, except fifth-generation stealth fighters. And these – the S-300 and S-400 - are not even Russian state-of-art; that would be the S-500 system, which I’ve referred to here, capable of definitely sealing Russian – and any other - territory from anything the Pentagon may come up with.

*Strategically in sync*
The simultaneous rolling out of the S-300s and S-400s to Iran and China are yet one more graphic example of the strategic partnership involving the three Eurasian nations that actively contest the hyperpower’s hegemony. They are certainly in sync.

In parallel, discreetly, Moscow has already started, in practice, a $20 billion oil-for-goods swap with Tehran – exchanging grain, equipment and construction materials for up to 500,000 barrels of Iranian crude a day. According to Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, _“this is not banned or limited under the current sanctions regime.”_

Ryabkov only stated the obvious; _“It takes two to tango. We are ready to provide our services and I am sure they will be pretty advantageous compared to other countries…We never gave up on Iran in a difficult situation...”_

Tehran responded in sync, via the Chairman for the Committee for Foreign Policy and National Security of the Islamic Consultative Assembly of Iran, Alaeddin Boroujerdi; Iran is ready to expand cooperation with Russia in all spheres at the highest level. Crucially, _“this is also the opinion of our supreme religious leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei about development of relations with Russia.”_

The usual suspects, as usual, are clinging to any argument that “proves” Russia-Iran cooperation is doomed. For instance, _“rehabilitated”_ Iran will doom Russia’s energy industry because of the _“serious impact”_ on the oil market from Iran’s increased supply and competition with gas exporter Gazprom.

Ryabkov dismissed it by going straight to the point; _“I am not confident as yet that the Iranian side would be ready to carry out supplies of natural gas from its fields quickly and in large quantities to Europe. This requires infrastructure that is difficult to build.”_

This infrastructure upgrade is costly and will take years; it may happen, but with help from – once again - the Russians and the Chinese. Russia will be back in play in full force in Iran’s energy sector, as Gazprom, its oil arm, Gazprom Neft, and Lukoil had to put on hold many projects because of sanctions. Rosatom, for its part, will be able to clinch further contracts at the Bushehr nuclear power plant.

The EU – and especially the US – are betting on Iran’s _“rehabilitation”_ as an economic/political bonanza; the first real benefit would be Tehran becoming a supplier to yet another troublesome ‘Pipelineistan’ gambit, the Trans-Anatolian (TAP) gas pipeline, which may – or may not – be finished by 2018. TAP will supply gas to the EU via Turkey, but it’s still unclear how much gas potential suppliers – Azerbaijan or Iran – are able to commit.

TAP coming online does not mean Gazprom’s exports to the EU must be cut down. In fact, what Russian and Iranian officials have been discussing for a while now is how profitable exporting to the EU may be for both nations. Besides, Russia has still another key _‘Pipelineistan’_ card to play – Turkish Stream, which will channel Russian gas to Turkey and Greece.

And yes, Gazprom is getting ready to be a key provider to two essential markets at the same time. Here’s what Gazprom’s CEO Alexei Miller told Rossiya-24: _“The resource base of Western Siberia is a resource that is used for delivering gas for exports to Europe. In other words, at this point we are on the cutting edge when actual competitiveness will begin for our energy resources between two mega-markets: Asian and European.”_

*SWIFT business*
Beijing, meanwhile, has also been on the offensive. As a top energy supplier – of both oil and gas - Iran is a matter of Chinese national security. So even with sanctions after sanctions, the US government was always forced to renew waivers for China, as Beijing kept importing energy from Iran at will.





Reuters / Petar Kujundzic

Iran is an absolutely key node of the Chinese-led New Silk Road(s) – be it as part of the land route or as part of the Maritime Silk Road, which will touch the port of Chabahar. And the China-Iran partnership does not span only close ties on energy and trade/commerce; it also includes advanced Chinese defense technology, and Chinese input in Iran’s ballistic missile program.

*China created a parallel SWIFT system to pay Iran for energy; Tehran, after the nuclear deal, will be free to access these funds in yuan. Iranian energy executives have already been to Beijing to discuss Chinese investment in the Iranian energy industry. Sinopec and CNPC will be instrumental in developing projects in the South Pars gas fields – the largest in the world - and in the monster Yadavaran and North Azadegan oil fields.*

For Iran, all this will happen in parallel with European energy giants investing in liquefied natural gas (LNG) development and technology.

Investing in multiple fronts, China will also be instrumental in its push to finally help complete themuch-troubled Iran-Pakistan (IP) pipeline, which in the future may even include an extension to Xinjiang.

*Xi does Tehran*
The icing in this vast energy cake is how both Russia and China are deeply committed to integrating Iran into their Eurasian vision.* Iran may finally be admitted as a full member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) at the upcoming summer summit in Russia.* That implies a full-fledged security/commercial/political partnership involving Russia, China, Iran and most Central Asian_’stans’._

Iran is already a founding member of the Chinese-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB); that means financing for an array of New Silk Road-related projects bound to benefit the Iranian economy. AIIB funding will certainly merge with loans and other assistance for infrastructure development related to the Chinese-established Silk Road Fund.

*And last but not least, the China-Iran strategic partnership will be discussed in detail as Chinese President Xi Jinping visits Tehran next month.

It’s easy to remember how Iran was relentlessly derided as “isolated” by the exceptionalist crowd only a few months ago. Yet the fact is it was never isolated – but painstakingly building blocks towards Eurasian integration.*

European firms are of course itching to unleash an avalanche of investment in the Iranian market post-sanctions, and most of all the energy giants badly yearn to lessen EU’s dependency on Gazprom. But they’ll be facing formidable competition, as it was up to Moscow and Beijing to identify, a long time ago, which way the wind was blowing; the inevitable (re)emergence of Iran as a key Eurasian power.


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## terranMarine

With sanctions being lifted, more energy deals between China and Iran are expected

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## TaiShang

*Pentagon asks $5.5 bln to protect space satellites from China and Russia*
17.04.2015
*Pravda.Ru*





AP Photo

*The Congress was notified* by the Pentagon of their intention to spend $5.5 billion by 2020 to protect government satellites.

The Department of Defense also claimed about the *need to secure computer networks and ground stations*.

The funding should prevent *possible attacks from China* as well as other countries.

Also read: USA helpless in space without Russia

Deputy assistant defense secretary for space policy Doug Loverro added:

"Those threats continue to mature and our adversaries are not sitting still-let me assure you-neither are we."

Arm suppliers that could probably benefit include such companies as SpaceX, Boeingand Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin.

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## qwerrty

anti-china propaganda to get more funding. americunt erection cumming up, get ready for big china-bashing flood

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## TaiShang

qwerrty said:


> anti-china propaganda to get more funding



Obama's troll army needs more funding, obviously.

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## gambit

qwerrty said:


> anti-china propaganda to get more funding. americunt erection cumming up, get ready for big china-bashing flood


Looks like somebody is nervous on how much we can accomplish with 5.5 bils.


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## Götterdämmerung

Give a bunch of Arabs some tape cutters and all US defense will be rendered useless.

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## forcetrip

gambit said:


> Looks like somebody is nervous on how much we can accomplish with 5.5 bils.



Yes after spending trillions in Iraq and Afghanistan .. The US has learned the art of defeating the two largest superpowers in $5.5b. Or make real expensive Mission Accomplished banners.

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## TaiShang

Götterdämmerung said:


> Give a bunch of Arabs some tape cutters and all US defense will be rendered useless.



Or just wait until the next elections. LOL.

Obama in Good Company of America's Worst Wartime Presidents / Sputnik International

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## gambit

forcetrip said:


> Yes after spending trillions in Iraq and Afghanistan .. The US has learned the art of defeating the two largest superpowers in $5.5b. Or make real expensive Mission Accomplished banners.


We can do more with 5.5 bils than most people realize.


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## TaiShang

*1st China-Russia railway bridge to be launched in 2016 
April 20, 2015, 8:09 am*
The BRICS Post






The $431 million project is the first railway bridge to cross a river linking China with Russia [Xinhua]


To improve the Sino-Russian border trade route, work on a major infrastructure project – the building of a long-planned railway bridge over the Amur river- has been accelerated, Chinese local media reports said.


The $431 million project is the first railway bridge to cross a river linking China with Russia.

The Tongjiang-Nizhneleninskoye Railway Bridge, which crosses the _Heilongjiang_ River known as _Amur_ in Russia, is slated for completion by the end of 2016, according to_Heilongjiang Daily_.

The 2,215-meter bridge will link Tongjiang city in Heilongjiang Province with Nizhneleninskoye in Russia’s Jewish Autonomous Oblast.

1900 meters will be within China’s borders.

China plans to invest 2.64 billion yuan ($431 million) in the project through the RCIF [Russia-China Investment Fund], including the construction of the main bridge and an approach road.

The project was given a go-ahead following Russian President Putin’s visit to Shanghai last year.

The bridge will be able to handle 21 million tons of traffic a year.

The new export corridor will make it easier to transport oil and gas from the new fields developed in Eastern Siberia and the Far East.

It will also significantly increase the turnover of goods and competitiveness of Russian exporters in the region. The new route will reduce the distance to the end customer by about 700 kilometers compared to other rail routes.

Heilongjiang accounts for about a quarter of China’s total trade with Russia.

Northeast China’s Heilongjiang Province is planning to increase investment in Russia by $1 billion by the end of 2015, and $2 billion by 2020.

The Chinese province, which borders Russia, plans to boost its trade volume to $26 billion by 2015, and $52 billion by 2020.

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang said, in Moscow last year, that Beijing will advance the establishment of a Eurasian high-speed transport corridor linking Beijing and Moscow, adding that the current priority should be the high-speed railway between Moscow and Kazan.

***
CCTV

The first railway bridge to cross a river and link China with Russia is under rapid construction, local media reported.

The Tongjiang-Nizhneleninskoye Railway Bridge, which crosses the Heilongjiang River, or the Amur River in Russia, is slated for completion by the end of 2016, according to Heilongjiang Daily.

The 2,215-meter bridge will link Tongjiang city in Heilongjiang Province with Nizhneleninskoye in Russia's Jewish Autonomous Oblast, 1,900 meters will be within China's borders.

First cross-river railway bridge to Russia ready in 2016 - People's Daily Online

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China set up $200mn venture capital fund, robotics center 
April 21, 2015, 7:07 am*
Brics Post





File photo of the third Skolkovo Robotics International Conference in March 2015 [Image: Skolkovo]

Russia and China have announced a $200 million joint venture capital fund that will focus on companies from sectors like information and technology, robotics, space technologies and telecommunications, said an official statement on Tuesday.

*Apart from the venture fund, the agreement inked between Russia’s Skolkovo Foundation and Chinese Cybernaut Investment Group aims to create a joint Russian-Chinese business incubator and a center for robotics at the Skolkovo Innovation Center, a high-tech park of 23,000 square meters outside Moscow that is also known as Russia’s “Silicon Valley”.*

The business incubator will deal in research and development.

The Chinese and Russian firms signed the agreement in Beijing on Tuesday during the ongoing Russia-Chinese forum “Big opportunities for small- and medium-sized enterprises”.

“Agreement between Skolkovo and Cybernaut Investment Group marks an important step in Russian-Chinese cooperation in the field of innovations,” Russian Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich said on Tuesday in Beijing.

“I’m confident Russia and China will score big success along the way of innovations and will thus contribute to their economic development,” he added.

The projects are expected to be launched in the third quarter of this year.

The agreement comes ahead of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s visit to Russia on 8 May.

Chinese investments in Russia is helping Moscow overcome the void caused by international sanctions, said Kirill Dmitriev, chief executive of the Russian Direct Investment Fund.

“We have a special program where we co-invest with people to localize their production in Russia, and frankly we see (a) major surge of strategies from China,” Dmitriev told _CNBC_last month.

“So a little bit less European countries are coming in right now, but lots of Chinese companies are coming in in mass. So we believe that for Russia it’s important to continue working with China, but also to have a strategic relationship with Europe,” he added.

In a meeting earlier this month with visiting Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi, Russian President Vladimir Putin has said Sino-Russian ties “meet the demands of the day”.

“I believe there is no need to describe Russian-Chinese relations. They are truly at an unprecedentedly high level. Their quality meets the demands of the day and our national interests,” Putin said.

In October 2014, China and Russia had signed a memorandum to jointly build high-tech parks in the two countries.

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## Tresbon

_by PEPE ESCOBAR
_
Move over, Cold War 2.0. The real story, now and for the foreseeable future, in its myriad declinations, and of course, ruling out too many bumps in the road, is a new, integrated Eurasia forging ahead.

China’s immensely ambitious New Silk Road project will keep intersecting with the Russia-led Eurasia Economic Union (EEC). And that will be the day when the EU wakes up and finds a booming trade/commerce axis stretching from St. Petersburg to Shanghai. It’s always pertinent to remember that Vladimir Putin sold a similar, and even more encompassing, vision in Germany a few years ago – stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok.

It will take time – and troubled times. But Eurasia’s radical face lift is inexorable. This implies an exceptionalist dream – the U.S. as Eurasia hegemon, something that still looked feasible at the turn of the millennium – fast dissolving right before anyone’s eyes.

*Russia Pivots East, China Pivots West*

A few sound minds in the U.S. remain essential as they fully deconstruct the negatives, pointing to the dangers of Cold War 2.0. The Carnegie Moscow Center’s Dmitri Trenin, meanwhile, is more concerned with the positives, proposing a road map for Eurasian convergence.

The Russia-China strategic partnership – from energy trade to defense and infrastructure development – will only solidify, as Russia pivots East and China pivots West. Geopolitically, this does not mean a Moscow subordinated to Beijing, but a rising symbiotic relationship, painstakingly developed in multiple stages.

The BRICs – that dirty word in Washington – already have way more global appeal, and as much influence as the outdated G-7. The BRIC New Development Bank, ready to start before the end of 2015, is a key alternative to G7-controlled mechanisms and the IMF.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) is bound to include India and Pakistan at their upcoming summer summit in Russia, and Iran’s inclusion, post-sanctions as an official member, would be virtually a done deal by 2016. The SCO is finally blossoming as the key development, political/economic cooperation and security forum across Asia.

Putin’s “greater Europe” from Lisbon to Vladivostok – which would mean the EU + EEC – may be on hold while China turbo-charges the its New Silk Road in both its overland and maritime routes. Meanwhile, the Kremlin will concentrate on a parallel strategy – to use East Asian capital and technology to develop Siberia and the Russian Far East. The yuan is bound to become a reserve currency across Eurasia in the very near future, as the ruble and the yuan are about to rule for good in bilateral trade.

*The German Factor*

“Greater Europe” from Lisbon to Vladivostok inevitably depends on a solution to the German puzzle. German industrialists clearly see the marvels of Russia providing Germany – much more than the EU as a whole – with a privileged geopolitical and strategic channel to Asia-Pacific. However, the same does not apply as yet to German politicos. Chancellor Angela Merkel, whatever her rhetoric, keeps toeing the Washington line.

The Russian Pipelineistan strategy was already in place – via Nord Stream and South Stream – when interminable EU U-turns led Moscow to cancel South Stream and launch Turk Stream (which will, in the end, increase energy costs for the EU). The EU, in exchange, would have virtually free access to Russia’s wealth of resources, and internal market. The Ukraine disaster means the end of all these elaborate plans.

Germany is already the defacto EU conductor for this economic express train. As an export powerhouse, its only way to go is not West or South, but East. Thus, the portentous spectacle of an orchestra of salivating industrialists when Xi Jinping went to Germany in the spring of 2104. Xi proposed no less than a high-speed rail line linking the New Silk Road from Shanghai to Duisburg and Berlin.

A key point which shouldn’t be lost on Germans: a vital branch of the New Silk Road is the Trans-Siberian high-speed rail remix. So one of the yellow BRIC roads to Beijing and Shanghai boasts Moscow as a strategic pit stop.

*That Empire of Chaos …*

Beijing’s Go West strategy overland is blissfully free of hyperpower meddling – from the Trans-Siberian remix to the rail/road routes across the Central Asian “stans” all the way to Iran and Turkey. Moreover, Russia sees it as a symbiosis, considering a win-win as Central Asian stans jump simultaneously aboard the EEU and what Beijing dubs the Silk Road Economic Belt.

On other fronts, meanwhile, Beijing is very careful to not antagonize the U.S., the reigning hyperpower. See for instance this quite frank but also quite diplomatic interview to the Financial Times by Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang.

One key aspect of the Russia-China strategic partnership is that both identify Washington’s massively incoherent foreign policy as a prime breeder of chaos – exactly as I argue in my book Empire of Chaos.

In what applies specifically to China and Russia, it’s essentially chaos as in divide and rule. Beijing sees Washington trying to destabilize China’s periphery (Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang), and actively interfering in the South China Sea disputes. Moscow sees Washington obsessed with the infinite expansion of NATO and taking no prisoners in preventing Russia’s efforts at Eurasian integration.

Thus, the certified death of Russia’s previous geopolitical strategy. No more trying to feel included in an elite Western club such as the G-8. No more strategic partnership with NATO.

Always expert at planning well in advance, Beijing also sees how Washington’s relentless demonization of not only Putin, but Russia as a whole (as in submit or else), constitute a trial run on what might be applied against China in the near future.

*Meet the Imponderables*

All bets are off on how the fateful U.S.-China-Russia triangle will evolve. Arguably, it may take the following pattern: The Americans talk loud and carry an array of sticks; the Russians are not shy to talk back while silently preparing strategically for a long, difficult haul; the Chinese follow a modified “Little Helmsman” Deng Xiaoping doctrine – talk very diplomatically while no longer keeping a low profile.

Beijing’s already savvy to what Moscow has been whispering: Exceptionalist Washington – in decline or not – will never treat Beijing as an equal or respect Chinese national interests.

In the great Imponderables chapter, bets are still accepted on whether Moscow will use this serious, triple threat crisis – sanctions, oil price war, ruble devaluation – to radically apply structural game changers and launch a new strategy of economic development. Putin’s recent Q&A, although crammed with intriguing answers, still isn’t clear on this.

Other great imponderable is whether Xi, armed with soft power, charisma and lots of cash, will be able to steer, simultaneously, the tweaking of the economic model and a Go West avalanche that does not end up alienating China’s multiple potential partners in building the New Silk roads.

A final, super-imponderable is whether (or when, if ever) Brussels will decide to undertake a mutually agreed symbiosis with Russia. This, vs. its current posture of total antagonism that extends beyond geopolitical issues. Germany, under Merkel, seems to have made the choice to remain submitted to NATO, and thus, a strategic midget.

So what we have here is the makings of a Greater Asia from Shanghai to St. Petersburg – including, crucially, Tehran – instead of a Total Eurasia that extends from Lisbon to Vladivostok. Total Eurasia may be broken, at least for now. But Greater Asia is a go. There will be a tsunami of efforts by the usual suspects, to also break it up.

All this will be fascinating to watch. How will Moscow and Beijing stare down the West – politically, commercially and ideologically – without risking a war? How will they cope with so much pressure? How will they sell their strategy to great swathes of the Global South, across multiple Asian latitudes?

One battle, though, is already won. Bye, bye Zbigniew Brzezinski. Your grand chessboard hegemonic dream is over.

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## meanderer

good analysis.

yes, indeed, EU leans towards US -- after all, neither Russia nor China can give EU security assurance as NATO does.

that inevitably pushes Russia and China together, forming a bipolar world. many countries will choose side.

swinging countries, like India, will benefit a lot from the game.

the boundary is not that clear though. there will be a lot of covert communications and under table deals. I think countries like UK, France, Israel, etc will be open to make some deals with China or Russia.

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## Aepsilons

meanderer said:


> good analysis.
> 
> yes, indeed, EU leans towards US -- after all, neither Russia nor China can give EU security assurance as NATO does.
> 
> that inevitably pushes Russia and China together, forming a bipolar world. many countries will choose side.
> 
> swinging countries, like India, will benefit a lot from the game.
> 
> the boundary is not that clear though. there will be a lot of covert communications and under table deals. I think countries like UK, France, Israel, etc will be open to make some deals with China or Russia.




Correction. Not bipolar world, but a multipolar world.


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## cnleio

*CHINA SIGNS HUGE ARMS DEAL WITH RUSSIA, BUYS WORLD'S BEST MISSILE*





_S-400.The S-400 SAM has a range of 400km, effective against many targets that Russia (or China) would face, such as stealth and conventional fighters, bombers, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles._

China and Russia, as part of closer strategic ties, have finalized a long-awaited deal for very long range S-400 surface to air missile (SAM) system. The deal is not only the largest Sino-Russian arms deal in over a decade, but S-400 missile defense capabilities would provide China with a quick missile defense upgrade at the moment neighboring states like North Korea acquire more ballistic missiles, and the U.S. and Japan look to buy stealthy anti-ship missiles.




_S-400 Components.Seen here, from left to right, are the S-400 missile launcher, the 92N6E Grave Stone Multimode Engagement Radar which provides midcourse guidance for the missiles, and a 96L6-1/96L6E Acquisition Radar for all altitude target acquisition._

In April 2015, both Anatoly Isaikin, CEO of Russia's arms sales Rosoboronexport agency, and Du Wenlong, a senior member of the PLA Academy of Military Science, have stated that China will take delivery of the S-400 SAM. The _Moscow Times_ reports that the deal was negotiated for $3 billion, to deliver 6 S-400 battalions. With each battalion consisting of 6 transport erector launch (TEL) vehicles, China would have 36 launch vehicles.




_S-400 Missiles.The S-400 system's 250km-ranged 48N6 and 120km-range 9M96E2 missiles are lethal against fighters, bombers, early warning and electronic warfare aircraft, as well as cruise and ballistic missiles._

The S-400 is the longest range SAM system in the world. It first entered into Russian service in 2007, and has capability to intercept ballistic missiles and high speed aircraft, while its 91N6E can locate and track stealth aircraft at standoff (100km+) distances. The most infamous of the S-400's three missiles is the 40N6, which has an astounding range of 400km. The 40N6's extreme range would allow S-400 TELs on China's coast to shoot down aircraft anywhere over Taiwan. The smaller 250km-ranged 48N6 and 120km-range 9M96E2 missiles are also equally lethal against fighters, bombers, early warning and electronic warfare aircraft, as well as cruise and ballistic missiles.




_HQ-9.China's HQ-9 SAM makes up half of China's long-range SAM arsenal, with nearly a hundred launchers in 2014. The HQ-9 has a range of 200km, and in addition to targeting aircraft, drones and cruise missiles, it has a limited ABM capability. In 2013, the HQ-9 was selected as Turkey's air defense system of choice over its Russian and western counterparts._

The S-400 will supplement China's Russian-made S-300 and domestic HQ-9 long-range SAMs, while its 30K6E command system can even interlink with other Russian made SAMs, like the S-400 and TOR-M1, both of which China already fields. The S-400s would likely be operated by the PLA Air Force (PLAAF), which has historically operated China's land based long-range air defense systems. While the 40N6's long range could theoretically cover all of Taiwan's air space, they would most likely protect major bases like the Hainan submarine pens, important cities such as Beijing and Shanghai, or hide within the inland mountains of Fujian and Guangdong Provinces.




_91N6E Radar.The 91N6E "Big Bird" AESA radar can locate and track stealth aircraft at standoff (100km+) distances, while it can detect high altitude targets like ballistic missiles at distances of up to 600km._

The deal is significant to regional security as well as geopolitics. China's improved air defense capabilities will greatly complicate any efforts to conduct aerial operations or missile attacks against the Chinese mainland, even with stealthy drones, longer-ranged cruise missiles, or new bombers, all part of the new US "third offset" plan. In wartime, the S-400 could even support Chinese airstrikes by knocking out enemy fighters flying above their own bases and cities. On the strategic level, the S-400 sale would facilitate Sino-Russian cooperation, as well as facilitate other sales and joint projects like submarines and space operations.

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## HariPrasad

S 400 is an *** kicking weapon. It is a great matter of concern for India. The only solution to this is to buy S500 and deploy that as a counter measure or develop 1000 KM range desi system based on K 15. Russian weapons are very hard to counter.


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## ito

S400 is awesome weapon.


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## deckingraj

HariPrasad said:


> S 400 is an *** kicking weapon. It is a great matter of concern for India. *The only solution to this is to buy S500* and deploy that as a counter measure or develop 1000 KM range desi system based on K 15. Russian weapons are very hard to counter.


how come a SAM be countered by another SAM?? We need to tighten our air defence however at the same time need to figure out how to penetrate enemy sky(if push comes to shove), no??


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## cnleio

110x China PLA soldiers reached Moscow to join Russia V-Day military parade

110x Chinese soldiers as PLA honour guard reached Moscow and will join May.9 V-Day of Red Square Parade, 70th anniversary of WWII Victory in Russia.







> 解放军仪仗队
> 
> 参加5月9日胜利日阅兵式的中国人民解放军军人已经抵达莫斯科。
> 
> 这是一支由110名中国人民解放军军人组成的仪仗队。4月25日(周六),他们抵达了莫斯科郊外的军用机场。然后开赴军队疗养所休整以及进行排练前的调配。
> 
> 中国驻俄罗斯大使李辉此前称,中国首次向俄罗斯派遣军人以参加在红场的阅兵式,这充分表现了两国战略合作的丰富内容,也体现了两国关系的高水平和特点。
> 
> 传统上,俄罗斯会组织多个国家的宾客庆祝反法西斯战争胜利——在庆祝伟大胜利70周年的仪式上更是邀请了68个外国领导人以及联合国教科文组织、联合国、欧盟和欧洲理事会的领导人。已经有超过25个国家的领导人确认到访。

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## HariPrasad

deckingraj said:


> how come a SAM be countered by another SAM?? We need to tighten our air defence however at the same time need to figure out how to penetrate enemy sky(if push comes to shove), no??



No it can not counter but deter.


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## Akasa

The purchase of the S-400 likely precipitated out of the diverging trajectories of missile development in the two countries. Beijing, on one hand, is testing multiple anti-ballistic missile systems that are only second to those of the United States in terms of interception techniques. Moscow has always been focusing on anti-aircraft systems as opposed to near-space weaponry.

That is why the S-400 is being purchased despite the near completion of the HQ-19, HQ-26, and HQ-29 projects.

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## cnleio



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## Raphael

Russia Invites China to Join in Creating Lunar Station / Sputnik International

*Two two countries are discussing China's participation in a Russian project to create a permanent manned station on the Moon, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.*




© Sputnik/ Sergey Mamontov
Manned Moon Flight Planned For 2030 - Russian Space Agency
HANGZHOU (Sputnik) — Russia and China are currently in talks on inviting the latter to become one of the main partners in creating a lunar station, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.
"The question is being discussed with Roscosmos on bringing China in as the main partner in creating a lunar scientific station. We have told China of our plans on the possibility of creating a Russian national orbital station," Rogozin told journalists after a meeting with Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang in Eastern China.

Rogozin added that both parties share "deep mutual understanding and mutual interests" in this area.

In February, China's Vice Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping said that Beijing is planning to boost its cooperation with Russia in a number of spheres, including space.

Exploration of the Moon and Mars is a priority for the Russian space program. In mid-April, President Vladimir Putin said that Russia plans to launch its national orbital station by 2023. The station is to serve as a base for Russia's lunar program. Spacecraft will be delivered first to the station, then proceeding to the Moon.

On April 22, Russia's space agency Roscosmos head Igor Komarov said that Russia is expected to carry out a manned mission orbiting the Moon in 2025 and conduct a manned landing on the surface of the Moon in 2029.

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## skyisthelimit

Sounds good. I hope India (ISRO) can also contribute.


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## cnleio

4.29 night, PLA honour guard in Moscow Red Square

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## Tresbon

BEIJING (AP) — "The purpose of the exercise is to strengthen the friendly exchanges between the two sides ... and to improve the capability of the two navies to deal with maritime threats," Geng said. He said the drills did not target any third parties and were not a response to fighting and instability in places such as Libya and Syria, he said.

China and Russia frequently align on major international issues and Beijing has refused to join in the condemnations and economic sanctions leveled against Moscow for its backing of the Ukrainian rebels.

In a further show of support, Chinese President Xi Jinping plans to attend commemorations of the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II in Moscow on May 9. Most Western leaders are staying away from the event featuring a massive military parade, in which a 112-strong honor guard from the Chinese army, navy and air force will also take part.

The two nation's militaries have increased their joint training operations in recent years, sometimes under the aegis of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a regional grouping formed partly to counter U.S. influence in Central Asia.

China's navy began expanding its reach toward the Mediterranean in 2008, when it first sent ships to join in the anti-piracy patrols.

In 2011, it took the unprecedented step of sending one of its most sophisticated warships together with military transport aircraft to help in the evacuation of about 35,000 Chinese citizens from Libya. Early this April, China detached three navy ships from the anti-piracy patrols to rescue Chinese citizens and other foreign nationals from fighting in Yemen.

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## Speeder 2

What's wrong with those hats? Look a bit wierd...

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## BuddhaPalm

If Chinese resistance was defeated by Japan, the Soviets would have lost their Siberian war factories and been defeated by Germany. Europe is free from fascism thanks to the valor of Chinese.


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## wiseone2

HariPrasad said:


> S 400 is an *** kicking weapon. It is a great matter of concern for India. The only solution to this is to buy S500 and deploy that as a counter measure or develop 1000 KM range desi system based on K 15. Russian weapons are very hard to counter.



6 S-400 batteries are enough to protect Beijing not entire China


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## Luca1

HariPrasad said:


> S 400 is an *** kicking weapon. It is a great matter of concern for India. The only solution to this is to buy S500 and deploy that as a counter measure or develop 1000 KM range desi system based on K 15. Russian weapons are very hard to counter.




Another Vedic logic of using anti air missile to counter another anti air missile. Why not use your Brahmos? Well, it's shorter than the intercept range of this system


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## TaiShang

*Russia and China will for the first time hold joint naval drills in the Mediterranean Sea next month, according to a spokesman for the Chinese Ministry of National Defense.*

Chinese National Defense Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng said that Moscow and Beijing will for the first time hold joint naval drills in the Mediterranean Sea in mid-May 2015, Russia's RIA Novosti news agency reported.

"According to plans by the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China, the two countries' navies will hold joint military exercises codenamed Sea Cooperation-2015 in the Mediterranean Sea in mid-May," Yansheng said.

According to him, the exercise will involve nine ships from each side.

"The exercises mainly include defense and escort-related drilling at sea, as well as ensuring the safety of maritime transport," Yansheng explained.
The purpose of the drills is to deepen bilateral friendly cooperation and strengthen the combat capability of the two countries in order to repulse threats to maritime safety.


In this connection, Yansheng added that the exercises are not directed against third countries and not related to the situation in the region.



Read more: Russia, China Plan First-Ever Joint Naval Drills in Mediterranean / Sputnik International

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## ptldM3

I can see how the same countries that conduct military drills off of Russian and Chinese territorial waters will protest this as provocative in nature. Lets hope China brings some DSI technology to the drills

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

ptldM3 said:


> I can see how the same countries that conduct military drills off of Russian and Chinese territorial waters will protest this as provocative in nature. Lets hope China brings some DSI technology to the drills


 
I see a great future of China-Russia cooperation, we might not form an alliance to anger US or to piss off some other Neighboring small nations but to undermine US that both are ready to defend their interests. Sino-Russia military cooperation and geopilitcal coorditnation can effectively corner US back on it own backyard as Amercian is trying to do now in Asia against China and Eastern Europe against Russia. When Xi and Putin visited Cuba and latine America last year, both had sent a shock wave message to Obama...that try to stir up the trouble on our respective region, Americans shall meet with some surprise expectation from us. And no one should be suprise to see how eager Obama is ready to accommodate Cuba, he certainly know how Both China and Russia can hit the sensitive nerf of Americans too

It will be interesting to see how things will developped in years to come, especially the US's alliances vs China-Russia under table military cooperation...on thing for sure China and Russia will not let US to have the supremacy over world affaire, we will balance American's power event in the zero sum game and overwritten rules set by Americans.

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## HariPrasad

Luca1 said:


> Another Vedic logic of using anti air missile to counter another anti air missile. Why not use your Brahmos? Well, it's shorter than the intercept range of this system



He strikes once again with his poor comprehension skill coupled with total ignorance of his mis-comprehension.



deckingraj said:


> how come a SAM be countered by another SAM?? We need to tighten our air defence however at the same time need to figure out how to penetrate enemy sky(if push comes to shove), no??




When you can not counter anything, you build an equally or more offensive weapon to ensure Mutual assured destruction. I recommend S 500 for deterrence and not for counter.



wiseone2 said:


> 6 S-400 batteries are enough to protect Beijing not entire China


 
S series is basically designed to protect from Aircraft in its primary role with some limited ABM capabiity. It can not counter mediun and long range missile. For that protection, you need to intercept the missile at high altitude and something like THAAD is required.


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## punit

Luca1 said:


> Another Vedic logic of using anti air missile to counter another anti air missile. Why not use your Brahmos? Well, it's shorter than the intercept range of this system


look who is back.. back again our very own Butthurt potato!

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## TaiShang

The real orient express departing station in China en route to Victory Day celebration in Moscow 9 May.

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## TaiShang

*中國俄羅斯地中海軍事演習*

*



*


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## Brutas

This is a good move. Balance of power is a must to ensure global peace and security.

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## sicsheep

(Reuters) - China will hold joint naval drills with Russia in mid-May in the Mediterranean Sea, the first time the two countries will hold military exercises together in that part of the world, the Chinese Defence Ministry said on Thursday.

China and Russia have held naval drills in Pacific waters since 2012. The May maneuvers come as the United States ramps up military cooperation with its allies in Asia in response to China's increasingly assertive pursuit of maritime territorial claims.

A total of nine ships from the two countries will participate, including vessels China now has on anti-piracy patrols in waters off Somalia, Chinese Defence Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng told a monthly news briefing.


"The aim is to deepen both countries' friendly and practical cooperation, and increase our navies' ability to jointly deal with maritime security threats," Geng said.

"What needs saying is that these exercises are not aimed at any third party and have nothing to do with the regional situation."

Geng gave no specific date for the drills, which will be focused on navigation safety, at-sea replenishment, escort missions and live fire exercises.

Since Western powers imposed economic sanctions on Russia last year over the violence in Ukraine, Moscow has accelerated attempts to build ties with Asia, Africa and South America, as well as warming relations with its former Soviet-era allies. [ID:nL8N0XP3ED]

China and Russia are both permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and have close diplomatic, economic and military ties, with China traditionally relying on Russia for its most advanced equipment.

President Xi Jinping is expected to visit Moscow next month to attend a parade celebrating the end of World War Two.

China has been increasingly flexing its military muscles since Xi assumed the presidency in 2013, jangling nerves around the region and globally, though Beijing insists it is a force for peace and threatens nobody.

China's navy has become a focus of Xi's efforts to better project the country's power, especially in the disputed South China Sea.

U.S. President Barack Obama accused China on Tuesday of "flexing its muscles" to advance its territorial claims at sea.[ID:nL1N0XP111]

China says about 90 percent of the 3.5 million sq km (1.35 million sq mile) South ChinaSea is its sovereign territory. The Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei and Vietnam also claim large parts.

China, Russia to hold first joint Mediterranean naval drills in May| Reuters

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## TaiShang

*Basic facts about China-Russia relations*
May 07, 2015

Chinese President Xi Jinping will visit Russia on Friday and attend later in Moscow a ceremony to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Great Patriotic War, Russia's term for WWII.

During the visit, Xi and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, are expected to add new content to bilateral ties and break new ground together, showing the two countries' relationship has entered a new development phase. Following are some basic facts about China-Russia relations:

On Dec. 27, 1991, China and Russia signed a memo to ensure Russia would inherit the diplomatic relations between the former Soviet Union and China established on Oct. 2, 1949.

In December 1992, China and Russia signed a joint statement on the foundation for bilateral ties, calling on China and Russia to regard each other as "friendly countries."

In September 1994, China and Russia signed the second joint statement, announcing the two countries are resolved to establish a constructive partnership with a perspective toward the 21st century.

The two sides also signed a series of important agreements, including a joint declaration to the effect that the two countries will not be the first to use nuclear weapons against each other and shall end the targeting of each other with strategic nuclear weapons.

In April 1996, the two countries declared the establishment of a partnership of strategic coordination based on equality and trust and oriented toward the 21st century.

In July 2001, China and Russia signed the Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation, which has laid a strong legal foundation for the two countries to develop a strategic partnership.

In May 2003, the two countries signed a joint statement in which both sides agreed to develop good-neighborly and friendly relations and a strategic partnership.

In October 2004, the two sides signed a joint statement and approved the guidelines for implementing the Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation, which stipulated that the two countries would launch a "Year of Russia" in China in 2006 and a"Year of China" in Russia in 2007.

In June 2005, China and Russia exchanged the ratification of the Supplementary Agreement on the Eastern Section of the China-Russia Boundary Line, ending border problems between the two countries.

In June 2009, the two countries signed a joint statement and approved the program for China-Russia investment cooperation planning.

In September 2009, China and Russia approved a 10-year program on planning for regional cooperation between China's northeastern region and Russia's far east and eastern Siberia region.

In September 2010, the two sides signed the China-Russia joint statement oncomprehensively deepening strategic partnership of coordination, and also published a joint statement on the 65th anniversary of the end of World War II.

In June 2011, the two countries issued a joint statement on a broad range of keyinternational issues.

In 2012, Putin included China in his first overseas trip after assuming the Russian presidency again.

In March 2013, Xi, as China's head of state, chose Moscow as the first stop of his overseas visit.

*During the past two years, the two heads of state have met nearly 10 times, reaching a series of important consensus on bilateral cooperation in all areas.*

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## beijingwalker

*Russia And China Are Becoming Best Friends*
*



*

*Russia And China Are Becoming Best Friends - Forbes*

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## alimobin memon

Russia is considering purchasing Type 054B frigates

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## cnleio

That should thanks U.S diplomatic policy.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

The Russians looked down on us in history，It‘s time for them to learn to treat us as equals

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## biendong

China has changed her friend, from Soviet to Uncle Sam, and now she turned back. Problem is :how long ?

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## TaiShang

From Putin's New York Times article:

"It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal."

***

Yes, indeed, anti-fascist Russia is our best friend.

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## TaiShang

*Beijing, Moscow agree to integrate China's Belt initiativewith Russia's Eurasian vision*
May 09, 2015






MOSCOW, May 8 (Xinhua) -- China and Russia agreed Friday to bridge and integrate the former's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative with the latter's vision of a trade and infrastructure network across Eurasia.

The consensus was announced in one of the two joint statements signed by visiting Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin

In the other joint statement, they pledged to further strengthen the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination.

Xi arrived in Moscow earlier Friday for a visit to Russia, where he is scheduled to attend aseries of events to mark the 70th anniversary of the victory of* the Great Patriotic War.*

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## TaiShang



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## LacViet

TheTruth said:


> It's ok. After China nukes Vietnam and puts your population in gas chambers, there will be lots of living room for Manchus



in 1969, Soviet - Sino conflict, Russia had a plan to nuke China. If he did, there is no wet dream of china to nuke Vietnam nowaday.

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## Galad

Read about it.There is 30 something minutes long clip from RT with the press conference.Agreement for so-called west delivery route to China,joint venture to ensure leasing of Sukhoi Superjet 100 in China and East Asia,HSR Moscow-Kazan,about join producing heavy helicopter,joint projects in agriculture,something about Sberbank and VTB etc-list is long.And this is just tip of the iceberg-will see even more joint projects and more cooperation in coming years.And tomorrow Merkel is coming to Moscow and will be some discussions-guess how to accommodate Germany in the project and how to kick out Uncle Sam out of Europe(Uncle Sam=bad for peace and business).

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## BoQ77

I'm surprise that at this moment, someone just start to consider Russian and Chinese are friends.


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## T-123456

alimobin memon said:


> Russia is considering purchasing Type 054B frigates


Impossible.

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## TaiShang

*Chinese president honors Russian WWII veterans with medals and care *





Chinese President Xi Jinping (C) meets with 18 representatives of Russian veterans who fought dauntlessly on the battlefield in northeast China during the anti-Japanese war and in Russia's Great Patriotic War, in Moscow, Russia, on May 8, 2015. (Xinhua/Rao Aimin)

by Xinhua Writers Wu Liming, Huo Xiaoguang

MOSCOW, May 8 (Xinhua) -- *"I'll go over and bring the badge to you! You don't need to move," Chinese President Xi Jinping told Gaverdovsky* when he found the Russian veteran could not walk steadily.

Xi then walked swiftly to Gaverdovsky, who is in his 90s, and presented the badge to him in order to honor the veteran's contribution to the victory of the World Anti-Fascist War.

*Warm applause greeted the touching episode in the medal-awarding ceremony here on Friday afternoon for 18 Russian veterans who fought against Japanese invaders in China's anti-Japanese war in the 1930s and 1940s.*

Xi hosted the ceremony and is scheduled to attend commemorative events to mark the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Great Patriotic War.

When the Chinese president walked into the meeting hall, the national anthems of the two countries were played.

Xi shook hands with the veterans, extended his sincere greetings to them on behalf of the Chinese government and people, and spoke highly of their great contribution to the victories of China's anti-Japanese war and the World Anti-Fascist War.

*The Chinese-Russian friendship, forged with lives and blood during the wartime, has laid a solid foundation for the two peoples to carry forward their bond from generation to generation, he said.*

The commemorative events the two countries hold this year are aimed at remembering the history, treasuring peace and pursuing a better future, added the Chinese president.

*The Russian veterans applauded Xi's remarks. They lauded China's fight against militarist Japan and noted that the Chinese military and people provided tremendous support for the Soviet troops battling Japanese invaders in China.*

During World War Two, both China and Russia made great national sacrifices, respectively suffering casualties of over 35 million and 27 million.

Under current circumstances, the veterans said, China and Russia should join hands to safeguard peace, civilization and the future of the world.

Gaverdovsky told the press after the ceremony that he did not think Xi could be so attentive and was deeply touched by the Chinese president's consideration.

His wife embraced him and kept stroking the badge, saying "what a remarkable glory!"

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## BoQ77

He must be thanking for Red Army to destroy Japanese army in Manchuria.


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## beijingwalker

*China's guards of honor join Russia's V-Day parade rehearsal*
*







*

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia agree to integrate Belt with EAEU*
Xinhua, May 9, 2015

China and Russia agreed here Friday to integrate the former's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative with the latter's aspiration under the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) framework.

The pledge was made in a joint statement signed by visiting Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, after their talks.

According to the document, China supports Russia promoting regional integration within the EAEU framework and agrees to launch talks with the EAEU on an economic and trade cooperation deal.

In the document, the two sides vowed to discuss the docking of the Silk Road Economic Belt initiative and the EAEU construction, saying that they agreed to set up a dialogue mechanism for the integration.

They pledged to maintain a continuous and stable economic growth in the region, strengthen regional economic integration, and safeguard peace and stability on the Eurasian landmass.

The two countries also listed out eight measures that could help boost regional cooperation:

*-- to expand investment and trade cooperation, optimize trade structure and cultivate new growth points for economy and employment.

-- to facilitate mutual investment, launch major investment cooperation projects and jointly build industrial parks and cross-border economic cooperation zones.

-- to enhance the interconnection in logistics and transportation, and work together on infrastructure construction projects.

-- to set up trade-facilitating mechanisms in ripe areas, formulate common policies in fields of common interests, and study the long-term objective of establishing a free trade zone between China and the EAEU.

-- to create a better environment for medium- and small-sized enterprises that can play an important role in boosting regional economic cooperation.

-- to promote the local-currency settlement in bilateral trade and deepen cooperation in export credit, insurance and trade financing among many other fields.

-- to enhance financial cooperation through the Silk Road Fund and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

-- to advance regional and global multilateral cooperation and expand international trade.*

Xi arrived in Moscow on Friday for a visit to Russia, where he is scheduled to attend a series of events to mark the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Great Patriotic War.

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## Beast

biendong said:


> China has changed her friend, from Soviet to Uncle Sam, and now she turned back. Problem is :how long ?


Are you talking about yourself but the reverse?

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## Aepsilons

utp45 said:


> The Russians looked down on us in history，It‘s time for them to learn to treat us as equals


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## HariPrasad

Other article states it otherwise.

Russia and China, An uneasy friendship


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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> Other article states it otherwise.
> 
> Russia and China, An uneasy friendship



Western discording tactic which Putin will not fall for it this time. It is the Western Europe and US that always look down on Russia no matter how she act.

Russia pivotal to Asia and hold China as real partner is real. We have the money and strength to help Russia and most important. We treat them as equal power.

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## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> Western discording tactic which Putin will not fall for it this time. It is the Western Europe and US that always look down on Russia no matter how she act.
> 
> Russia pivotal to Asia and hold China as real partner is real. We have the money and strength to help Russia and most important. We treat them as equal power.




Hummmmmm!!!!!!

Wishful thinking and conspiracy theory once again.


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## TaiShang

*Red Square march an honor for PLA*
China Daily, May 9, 2015

For the Chinese audience, two highlights of the Victory Day parade on Red Square on Saturday will be the appearance of President Xi Jinping at the reviewing stand and the PLA honor guard marching on the cobblestones of history outside the Kremlin.

This will be the first time that the People's Liberation Army has taken part in a military review on Red Square.

The public's interest has been ignited with video and photos of the honor guard marching in rehearsals on May 4, in their latest uniform and singing the Russian wartime marching song Katyusha, in both Russian and Chinese. They won loud and appreciative applause from Russian onlookers as well as numerous fans in cyberspace.

Li Bentao, head of the PLA honor guard, said the 102-strong Chinese honor guard is the tallest of the 10 foreign and 52 Russian formations.

Though the PLA honor guard is renowned for its well-drilled marching, Li said the Red Square march raised several challenges.

For one thing, unlike the 80-cm-long stride taken by Russian soldiers, PLA troops are trained for 75-cm steps at a rate of 116 steps per minute, so they must adjust in Moscow to stay in step with the Russians.

"It's quite challenging for us to march through Red Square at the same speed as other formations," Li said.

Also, he said, the Red Square cobblestones are different from Beijing's Tian'anmen Square and "training the Chinese soldiers to sing in Russian was also not easy".

Training was held at a venue two hours' drive from their residence, which meant they had to get up at 3 am.

However, Li said, the Chinese troops overcame the difficulties, and for soldier Lang Xujie it will be an occasion to remember.

"The Russians are very good hosts, so we adapted to the situation here quickly. This is my first trip abroad, and I'm attending Russia's Great Patriotic War Victory celebration ... I'm so proud. It reminds me how amazing it is to live in peace," Lang said.

Zhang said that when the Chinese troops sang Katyusha the first time in rehearsal, the other formations were surprised and sang together with the Chinese, and many of the young soldiers had tears in their eyes.

Katyusha is one of the designated marching songs for Russian troops and deeply evocative of the wartime struggle. The army of the former Soviet Union sang it as they advanced on Berlin in 1945.

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## BoQ77

Chinese ever fought German Nazi ?


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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> Western discording tactic which Putin will not fall for it this time. It is the Western Europe and US that always look down on Russia no matter how she act.
> 
> Russia pivotal to Asia and hold China as real partner is real. We have the money and strength to help Russia and most important. We treat them as equal power.



Let the Indian suspect. Nothing to prove to them, really. History will reveal what is in stock.

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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> Hummmmmm!!!!!!
> 
> Wishful thinking and conspiracy theory once again.


You are fearful of a powerful Sino-Russia alliance and you are showing your weakness .

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## kalu_miah

Congratulations to both China and Russia.

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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> History already reveals so many thing about china Russia relationship. China has a harmonic design and so conflict with whole world is a natural inevitable. This includes Russia also.


History proves Japanese is a massive aggressor in WWII so Japan is a forever aggressor. Do you agree if I used your analogy. You want me to agree then you must agree with my statement too or it proves your double standard.



HariPrasad said:


> India is on the path of becoming super power and super power do not afraid of anybody or any alliance.



  

I know India is already a super power. 

India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - timesofindia-economictimes

Shanghai Soon - The Times of India

India in 2030 of super power.

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## Beast

HariPrasad said:


> Yes I agree. Now you agree with what I say.


Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HIstory proves Sino-Russia relation alliance in brightest moment in 1950 Korean war when Stalin supplies and assist China while Chine bear the brunt of sending soldiers to do the ground combat 

Yes, I whole heartly agree history proves Sino-Russia friendship is workable and possible  

Thanks for agreeing Japan is still a aggressor.

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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> History proves Japanese is a massive aggressor in WWII so Japan is a forever aggressor. Do you agree if I used your analogy. You want me to agree then you must agree with my statement too or it proves your double standard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know India is already a super power.
> 
> India to become superpower by 2012: Kalam - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> Shanghai Soon - The Times of India
> 
> India in 2030 of super power.



Modi is a great leader. I bet he will talk all of us to death. By the way, China does little talking.

If empty rhetoric would be all it takes to become a great power, Erdoghan and all his tin soldiers would have established the caliphate, already. Same goes with Modi. 

**

The two countries also listed out eight measures that could help boost regional cooperation:

*-- to expand investment and trade cooperation, optimize trade structure and cultivate new growth points for economy and employment.

-- to facilitate mutual investment, launch major investment cooperation projects and jointly build industrial parks and cross-border economic cooperation zones.

-- to enhance the interconnection in logistics and transportation, and work together on infrastructure construction projects.

-- to set up trade-facilitating mechanisms in ripe areas, formulate common policies in fields of common interests, and study the long-term objective of establishing a free trade zone between China and the EAEU.

-- to create a better environment for medium- and small-sized enterprises that can play an important role in boosting regional economic cooperation.

-- to promote the local-currency settlement in bilateral trade and deepen cooperation in export credit, insurance and trade financing among many other fields.

-- to enhance financial cooperation through the Silk Road Fund and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

-- to advance regional and global multilateral cooperation and expand international trade.*

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## biendong

Beast said:


> Are you talking about yourself but the reverse?



This is thread about Russia - China friendship.


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## HariPrasad

Beast said:


> Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> HIstory proves Sino-Russia relation alliance in brightest moment in 1950 Korean war when Stalin supplies and assist China while Chine bear the brunt of sending soldiers to do the ground combat
> 
> Yes, I whole heartly agree history proves Sino-Russia friendship is workable and possible
> 
> Thanks for agreeing Japan is still a aggressor.



History proves that China and russia had always been enemies.

Sino-Soviet border conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sino-Soviet conflict (1929) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## liubang

Geopolitics is interesting indeed. Most interesting and dynamic relationships right now in Asia that interest me. 
-China and Russia
-China and Thailand
-Japan and India
-Japan and Australia
-Japan and Indonesia


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## BoQ77

Some are fair weather friends @Yorozuya right?


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## dlclong

biendong said:


> China has changed her friend, from Soviet to Uncle Sam, and now she turned back. Problem is :how long ?


Vietnam has changed her dady from china to France，and，later turn to China，and now it turnto uncle Sam, Problem is :how long ?
fucking stupit Vietmonkey

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## dlclong

Why the snake like vicious Vietnam bitch so unhappy，
Murphy, Vietnamese born is mad dog?
This topic is none of your business，Why did you bite China here
Here, a few Vietnamese like cockroaches disgusting

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## Aepsilons

_"Therefore I say that it is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." _

*-Viscount Palmerston*

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## dlclong

biendong said:


> we kicked all stupid invaders out from Vietnam, France, American, and Chinese.


lol，Again, stupid idiot
Don't sick people here.

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## Aepsilons

dlclong said:


> lol，Again, stupid idiot
> Don't sick people here.




Speak calmly. No need for rude words.


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## liubang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Speak calmly. No need for rude words.



People should learn how to use the ignore function. But then again, I have to up my standard or else 90% people on here would go to my ignore list.

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## Aepsilons

liubang said:


> People should learn how to use the ignore function. But then again, I have to up my standard or else 90% people on here would go to my ignore list.



You're right, @liubang


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## LacViet

biendong said:


> he he,
> 
> Just reminder all members in this forum that Chinese is betrayer. You said friendship with Soviet Russia and Viets in cold war, but chinese changed to side to American in 1972. 1979 Chinese invaded in to Vietnam and killed Vietnamese, occupied Islands of Viet now.



to be cooll bro. for give it. I was bittery history of us.


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## cnleio

Troll is useless on the internet,_Talk less & Do more_

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## Beidou2020

Russia and China are the light that is fighting against the darkness of the monstrosity that is the bloodthirsty warmongering regime.

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## beijingwalker

*Russia: China is Russia's key strategic and economic partner - Putin*

China is Russia's top strategic partner, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in Moscow, Friday. Speaking at a joint press conference with Chinese President Xi Jinping, following the signing of some 40 documents on enhancing the strategic partnership between the two countries, Putin highlighted the economic partnership between Russia and China announcing the figures of mutual trade in 2014, which amounted $88.4 billion (€78.5 billion). Putin added that the economic partnership between the countries will be expanded in both the energy and the investment sector. The Russian leader concluded his statement saying that the ultimate objective is to create a common economic space within the Eurasian continent.

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## Beast

The American and western and Indians will desperately trying to destroy this alliance. They will claim China is a real threat to Russia and Russia never like China. It clearly show their pathetic fear effect of a powerful Sino-Russia alliance.

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## TaiShang

Chinese President Xi Jinping arrived in Moscow on Friday for a visit to Russia where he will attend events to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Great Patriotic War, Russia's term for WWII.





Chinese President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan arrived in Moscow on Friday for a visit to Russia.





A signed article by Chinese President Xi Jinping is published on the state-run newspaper Russian Gazette in Moscow, Russia, May 7, 2015. The article was published before Xi's visit to Russia to attend the ceremony commemorating the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Great Patriotic War in Moscow. [Photo: Xinhua/Jia Yuchen]





Chinese servicemen march during the rehearsal for the Victory Day military parade at Red Square in Moscow, Russia, 07 May 2015. The Victory Day parade on 09 May 2015 marks the 70th anniversary since the capitulation of Nazi Germany to the Soviet Union. [Photo: Xinhua]

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## TaiShang

*Putin and Xi Jinping in Moscow - Russia and China are strategic partners and the world is changing.*

Xi Jinping was the first of 30 world leaders arriving in Moscow for Victory Day and met immediately with Vladimir Putin already on Friday - as strategic partners. The world is changing with this partnership. So the 9th of May Victory Day was celebrated already one day earlier on Friday in Moscow, when Xi Jinping and Putin signed documents on the huge Silk Road and Eurasian Economic Union (EAEC). They signed 40 different multi-Billion dollar Russian-Chinese projects all from building aeroplanes and raildroads to close energy cooperation.

China and Russia are the two giant strategic partners that are changing the world. The Chinese Xi Jinping was one the first of the 30 world leaders that arrived in Moscow for the 70 years anniversary of the Victory over Nazism and Fascism. Xi and Putin signed 40 documents on multi-billion dollar projects that further build the Silk Road between Europe and Asia, and developes the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEC).

China is Russia's top strategic partner, Putin said in Moscow on Friday. Speaking at a joint press conference with Chinese President Xi Jinping, Putin highlighted the economic partnership between Russia and China announcing the figures of mutual trade in 2014, which amounted $88.4 billion (€78.5 billion). Putin added that the economic partnership between the countries will be expanded in both the energy and the investment sector. The Russian leader concluded his statement saying that the ultimate objective is to create a common economic space within the Eurasian continent.

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## Dil Pakistan

Beast said:


> The American and western and Indians will desperately trying to destroy this alliance. They will claim China is a real threat to Russia and Russia never like China. It clearly show their pathetic fear effect of a powerful Sino-Russia alliance.



Fully agree ... they will do their best to break it because this alliance is totally against the paradigm of "New World Order".

China and Russia have already signed the world's biggest deal worth 400-billion dollars for China to buy gas (and may be oil) from Russia.

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## CHN Bamboo

A simple person in China is most likely to love Russia...
Our history book didn't tell the seamy side of Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,so many people like USSR,me too.
Some even thought China once had betrayed USSR..
Naturally,many Chinese favour Russia,Belarus,Ukraine...
-----
I remember that many articles in our Chinese Language book are writen by USSR/Russians.



dlclong said:


> Why the snake like vicious Vietnam bitch so unhappy，
> Murphy, Vietnamese born is mad dog?
> This topic is none of your business，Why did you bite China here
> Here, a few Vietnamese like cockroaches disgusting


。。。u‘d better be calmer

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## biendong

Russia doesn't forget her old friends. Talks less.


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## Edison Chen

Yes I agree, so please return northeast land to China, and then talk about the "friendship"


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## northeast

IF they are our best friend，then they should stop exporting their weapons to Viets.So the fact is there are no friendship between China and Russia.We are just two countries that have some common interests，that is the fact.Some Chinese cowards need foreign dads to make them feel safe，I will not be suprised even they call russia as their best dad.


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## BoQ77

The fact that Russia love to sell many more weapons to Vietnam, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar, ...
In fact, all offensive weapon they sold to China neighbors are better than the version they sold to China.



northeast said:


> IF they are our best friend，then they should stop exporting their weapons to Viets.So the fact is there are no friendship between China and Russia.We are just two countries that have some common interests，that is the fact.Some Chinese cowards need foreign dads to make them feel safe，I am not suprised even they call russia as their best dads.


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## BoQ77

empirefighter said:


> Do you want to know WHY? because the countries like Vietnam, Indiaare incompetent countries,even they teach you hand by hand, you are so stupid that you still canot understand or develop new one. As for us, we just need buy very few weapon ,then we can develop better one,you can find such examples easily. If you were russian,how could you sell your best weapon to us? Russia enjoy selling better weapon to you Viet, just means you guys are very imcompetent. By the way,our chinese weapon can develop ourselves without Russia .



think about your own long history and how you were at the time of WW2 ? just few decades from now.


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## empirefighter

northeast said:


> IF they are our best friend，then they should stop exporting their weapons to Viets.So the fact is there are no friendship between China and Russia.We are just two countries that have some common interests，that is the fact.Some Chinese cowards need foreign dads to make them feel safe，I will not be suprised even they call russia as their best dad.


You considered too much. Everyone knows we just have some common interests, Russia is our friend not ally,Pakistan is our friend and ally,we of course know that. As a communist country,we chinese naturally are interested in USSR and Russia, but USSR was a great threat to us when in cold war, we admired their spirit when confronting the West, but we liked to see a dead USSR. As for Russia,we want to see a capable Russia not a weak one, if China,USA and Russia can make a balance,that can make the world better.

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## 21stCentury

Can we stop this whole best friend thing among countries? It's so lame! Attributing humanly qualities to nations like they are...humans? feels very strange.

The way I see it is China and Russia are developing very close geopolitical ties and thus becoming global allies BECAUSE of shared threats and interests. Obviously those threats affecting both Russia and China are greater than any beef Russia and China have among each other so this alliance works.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia to cooperate in hydropower development*

China Three Gorges Corporation and Russia's hydropower company RusHydro have signed an agreement to jointly develop a hydropower project in Russia.

In a preliminary agreement signed in Moscow on Friday, the two sides plan to set up a joint venture for building a hydropower plant on the Bureya river in Russia's Far East.

The project with a designed installed capacity of 320 mw, the electricity generated by the project can be sent back to China, said the statement.

The agreement was signed during Chinese President Xi Jinping's visit to Russia.

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## TaiShang

*Russia and China Pledge Not to Hack Each Other*

*WSJ*


MOSCOW—If the U.S. intelligence community believes that Russia poses a greater cyber spying threat than China, what will it make of this?

Russia and China signed a cyber-security deal on Friday, which experts say could firm up Russia’s ties with the east and may become a foundation for binding cyber security ties in the future.

According to the text of the agreement posted on the Russian government’s website on Wednesday, Russia and China agree to not conduct cyber-attacks against each other, as well as jointly counteract technology that may “destabilize the internal political and socio-economic atmosphere,” ”disturb public order” or “interfere with the internal affairs of the state.”

The two countries agreed to exchange information between law enforcement agencies, exchange technologies and ensure security of information infrastructure, the document says.

Western sanctions against Russia over the crisis in Ukraine have caused Russian officials to re-evaluate areas of critical dependency on Europe and the U.S., and increasingly turn to the east. Russian lawmakers have also campaigned for tighter control over the Internet following the revelations by former US National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden. President Vladimir Putin, meanwhile, has called for moving key online infrastructure into Russia from overseas, complaining publicly last year that the Internet began as “a CIA project.”

Friday’s agreement is the latest sign that Beijing and Moscow favor changes to global Internet governance that would reduce the traditional role of the U.S. Russia is also preparing an action plan in case the Russian segment of the Internet was shut down from the outside, Russian minister of communications Nikolai Nikiforov said last year.

China, meanwhile, this week cited “cyberspace sovereignty” to propose an update to its national security law that would make it illegal to launch network attacks, conduct cyber theft or disseminate material deemed unlawful and harmful.

“For Russia the agreement with China to cooperate on cyber security is an important step in terms of pivoting to the East,” said Oleg Demidov, a cyber-security consultant at the PIR Center, an independent think tank focusing on international security. “The level of cooperation between Russian and China will set a precedent for two global cyber security powers,” Mr. Demidov said.

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## cnleio

*U.S: China is U.S's key strategic partner - Nixon in 1972*

_The history just changed ..._


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## AndrewJin

The world would be such a nice place without United States of War.

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## empirefighter

BoQ77 said:


> think about your own long history and how you were at the time of WW2 ? just few decades from now.


What is your point? Do you mock at our WW2 history? I cannot get your laughing point.
1、we chinese didnot surrender as your FRANCE master did at the time of WW2, although we lost many battles and many lives,but won the war.
2、WW2 is none of vietnam business, you just were French colony and the destiny was much worser than us.Vietnam was a eunuch at that time, So, I dont think you have the right to judge any man who had REAL penis and joined WW2.
3、Do you REALLY think the war between Japan and China was over after 1945 FOREVER? Dont be naive,according to our long history,every enemy must be destoryed even if the war would last for centuries,we played this kind of war games with Huns,Turks,Mogolian,Tibetens ...in history, we are familiar with that.NOW is just a break time,Japan cannot move its island away,we can wait for the suitable timing in patience until the new international order changes,we of course will revenge Japan in the future. Japan knows that too,that is why they hold their father legs so tight.
4、You are a Vietnam,I dont know why you have the courage to mock at us?Look at your history,we F you for hundreds of times and thousands of years,that is OUR own long history and that is YOUR own long miserable history. What we did to you in history was much much much worser than Japan did to us at WW2,Do you cowards dare to revenge us?

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## Beast

The Great One said:


> I see you enjoyed the time when your country was being raped and plundered by the Imperial Japanese Empire.


I enjoy every reply of yr deep jealousy of the rising of powerful China shown by yr post. I can understand yr helplessness of watching China growing stronger and more influence everyday. It's like a slow torture for haters like you. But I enjoy it

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## The Great One

Beast said:


> I enjoy every reply of yr deep jealousy of the rising of powerful China shown by yr post. I can understand yr helplessness of watching China growing stronger and more influence everyday. It's like a slow torture for haters like you. But I enjoy it


Wow. You must be deep into psychology and psychoanalysis.



Or merely passing another brain-fart


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## Beast

The Great One said:


> Wow. You must be deep into psychology or psychoanalysis.
> 
> 
> 
> Or merely passing another brain-fart


It doesn't need a genius to see your agony. You are indeed a loser.

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## The Great One

Beast said:


> It doesn't need a genius to see your agony. You are indeed a loser.


So you admit that you are not a genius. Nor have any qualification to read people's mind. So what now, are you in possession of my fortune cookie.


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## Beast

The Great One said:


> So you admit that you are not a genius. Nor have any qualification to read people's mind. So what now, are you in possession of my fortune cookie.


Your pathetic post of your agony of watching the rising China is so obvious that even 
a 10 years old kid can easily see it. Now not only I now understand yr agony but yr level of intelligent too. 

My assessment of you as loser is indeed spot on

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## The Great One

Beast said:


> Your pathetic post of your agony of watching the rising China is so obvious that even
> a 10 years old kid can easily see it. Now not only I now understand yr agony but yr level of intelligent too.
> 
> My assessment of you as loser is indeed spot on


Seriously?
I'd say 10 year olds can come with better comebacks than this.
Don't lie now, tell us your real age.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
You are 8 years old aren't you


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## ASEN

Super Power China need Russia to save her arse.Russia never looked for anyone when USSR stand against USA. Why does China need Russia now ?


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## Red Wolf

empirefighter said:


> What is your point? Do you mock at our WW2 history? I cannot get your laughing point.
> 1、we chinese didnot surrender as your FRANCE master did at the time of WW2, although we lost many battles and many lives,but won the war.
> 2、WW2 is none of vietnam business, you just were French colony and the destiny was much worser than us.Vietnam was a eunuch at that time, So, I dont think you have the right to judge any man who had REAL penis and joined WW2.
> 3、Do you REALLY think the war between Japan and China was over after 1945 FOREVER? Dont be naive,according to our long history,every enemy must be destoryed even if the war would last for centuries,we played this kind of war games with Huns,Turks,Mogolian,Tibetens ...in history, we are familiar with that.NOW is just a break time,Japan cannot move its island away,we can wait for the suitable timing in patience until the new international order changes,we of course will revenge Japan in the future. Japan knows that too,that is why they hold their father legs so tight.
> 4、You are a Vietnam,I dont know why you have the courage to mock at us?Look at your history,we F you for hundreds of times and thousands of years,that is OUR own long history and that is YOUR own long miserable history. What we did to you in history was much much much worser than Japan did to us at WW2,Do you cowards dare to revenge us?



You are going to make a lot of friends.

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## Ahiska

Russia and China will never be real friends.
Russia and China dont think they are equal.
For example the average Russian thinks they are superior to Chinese and that the only thing chinese are good at is cheap products and buying Russias ressources.


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## kalu_miah

The Sino-Russian Entente in Eurasia | Asia Times

*The Sino-Russian Entente in Eurasia*
Author: M.K. Bhadrakumar May 10, 2015 0 Comments

Asia Times News & Features

Belt and Road Initiatives, Eurasian Economic Union, New Cold War, Russia-China

The presence of the Chinese President Xi Jinping at the Victory Day parade in Moscow on May 9 signifies a significant step forward in the strategic partnership between the two big powers. The Chinese media underscored this in no small measure. The following quotes from the dispatches by Xinhua news agency bring out the flavor of what unfolded in Moscow over the weekend:


Xi’s presence in Moscow “demonstrates China’s determination to safeguard the post-WWII world order.”
“Xi’s presence and the unprecedented participation of Chinese soldiers in the parade delivered a clear message: China and Russia are seeing eye to eye on upholding the post-war international order and safeguarding world peace.”
The Red Square parade “is meant to showcase Russia’s great power and unyielding will in front of Western pressure and its determination against attempts at rewriting history and challenging the postwar order.”
“The parade is not only a military show but a diplomatic event.”
The joint statement signed by Putin and Xi after their talks in the Kremlin on Friday reflects similar views on the major international issues such as Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea. The portion relating to Ukraine says the two powers urge relevant parties to formulate a comprehensive, *balanced and sustainable political solution* that takes into full consideration the*reasonable interests of all parties* concerned.” Beijing has shown a high degree of understanding for Moscow’s core concerns in the Ukraine crisis. [Emphasis added.]

In substantive terms, a second joint statement – again, signed by Putin and Xi) – on the co-relation between the Russia-led Eurasian Economic Union [EAEU] and the China-led Silk Road Economic Belt initiatives stands out as a historic document that elevates the Sino-Russian partnership to unprecedented heights both at a practical level and in political terms.

China has formally stated in the joint statement for the first time its support for the integration processes Russia hopes to develop within the EAEU framework. Two, Moscow and Beijing have agreed to set up a dialogue mechanism for the integration (“docking”) of China’s Belt and Road initiative and Russia’s EAEU project. Three, China will begin talks with the EAEU in an economic and trade cooperation deal.

Indeed, the joint statement contains a big political statement to the effect that the two powers will cooperate in the stable development and regional economic integration of the Eurasian region as a whole and in an endeavor to “safeguard peace and stability on the Eurasian landmass.” (Xinhua)

In sum, the two big powers are committed to coordinating their policies with regard to the vast space encompassing the territories of the former Soviet Union stretching from Central Europe eastward to the Asia-Pacific. This scale of strategic partnership and coordination has no precedent in the history of Sino-Russian relations.

Specifically, eight measures have been identified in the economic sphere to boost regional cooperation, which includes, amongst others, an agreement to “study long-term objective of establishing a free trade zone between China and the EAEU”.

All-in-all, China’s fulsome endorsement of the EAEU and its participation in the Russia-led project (which is closely identified with Putin’s leadership) constitutes a rebuff to the United States which had opposed the project tooth and nail and dubbed it as “a move to re-Sovietize the region.”

Clearly, Tte cold blast of western propaganda against the EAEU failed to impress China. Theprophets of doom have fallen on their face. China’s integration with the EAEU means in effect that a real engine of growth is being hooked to the Russian project. In reality, China is the key to the future of the EAEU. Significantly, Xi has combined his visit to Moscow with a tour of Belarus and Kazakhstan, the two other founder members of the EAEU.

From the Chinese viewpoint, Moscow is now completely on board as regards its Belt and Road Initiative. This is vital for the implementation of the Silk Routes via Russia and Central Asia. Xi can draw satisfaction that it is Mission Accomplished. To be sure, his “business agenda” this week has been to push forward the realization of the Belt and Road Initiative enhancing interconnectivity with Eastern, Central and Western Europe.

China’s embrace of the EAEU increases the possibility of its cooperation with the European Union [EU] – given enough political will, of course, in Brussels. In the ongoing battle for influence and power in Eurasia, Moscow’s hands have been strengthened with China’s support for the EAEU.

On the other hand, China’s presence will also nudge he EAEU to take a pragmatic approach to economic issues. The bottom line is that the EU can no longer simply dismiss this Russia-led integration project. Exploratory efforts may have to begin at some point to identify where the interests of the two unions overlap and Brussels needs to ponder over potential forms of cooperation.

Without doubt, Washington will pull all stops to try to stop such a process of constructive engagement between Brussels and Moscow from advancing. Conceivably, therefore, this process with immense strategic overtones will likely be a long, slow process.

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## Beast

The Great One said:


> Seriously?
> I'd say 10 year olds can come with better comebacks than this.
> Don't lie now, tell us your real age.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> You are 8 years old aren't you


Clearly the agony is showing on you. Poor thing. Rise of China is a pill hard to swallow. Isn't it? 



ASEN said:


> Super Power China need Russia to save her arse.Russia never looked for anyone when USSR stand against USA. Why does China need Russia now ?


Both China and Russia are righteous. We United against tyrants. Nothing about strength or not

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## Raphael

Where have you been @kalu_miah?

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## kalu_miah

Raphael said:


> Where have you been @kalu_miah?



Just busy with personal life. Too many things going on.


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## empirefighter

[tQUOTE="Red Wolf, post: 7134004, member: 167994"]You are going to make a lot of friends.




[/QUOTE]
I think our eternal friend is national interest. Every big power is lonely .



Ahiska said:


> Russia and China will never be real friends.
> Russia and China dont think they are equal.
> For example the average Russian thinks they are superior to Chinese and that the only thing chinese are good at is cheap products and buying Russias ressources.


This thought happens in China as well,but it is we feel we are superior to Russia. As a glory old civilization,we never think the west civilization is superior in heart,not to mention Russia. Actually,superior or not is all about economy! I donot understand what you mean?you mean selling resourse is better than selling industrial products even cheap product?lol.By the way,we cannot become the biggest industrial country by only selling cheap products,we are actually at the middle value chain and move upward very fast.

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## Lux de Veritas

kalu_miah said:


> The Sino-Russian Entente in Eurasia | Asia Times
> 
> *The Sino-Russian Entente in Eurasia*
> Author: M.K. Bhadrakumar May 10, 2015 0 Comments
> 
> Asia Times News & Features
> 
> Belt and Road Initiatives, Eurasian Economic Union, New Cold War, Russia-China
> 
> The presence of the Chinese President Xi Jinping at the Victory Day parade in Moscow on May 9 signifies a significant step forward in the strategic partnership between the two big powers. The Chinese media underscored this in no small measure. The following quotes from the dispatches by Xinhua news agency bring out the flavor of what unfolded in Moscow over the weekend:
> 
> 
> Xi’s presence in Moscow “demonstrates China’s determination to safeguard the post-WWII world order.”
> “Xi’s presence and the unprecedented participation of Chinese soldiers in the parade delivered a clear message: China and Russia are seeing eye to eye on upholding the post-war international order and safeguarding world peace.”
> The Red Square parade “is meant to showcase Russia’s great power and unyielding will in front of Western pressure and its determination against attempts at rewriting history and challenging the postwar order.”
> “The parade is not only a military show but a diplomatic event.”
> The joint statement signed by Putin and Xi after their talks in the Kremlin on Friday reflects similar views on the major international issues such as Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea. The portion relating to Ukraine says the two powers urge relevant parties to formulate a comprehensive, *balanced and sustainable political solution* that takes into full consideration the*reasonable interests of all parties* concerned.” Beijing has shown a high degree of understanding for Moscow’s core concerns in the Ukraine crisis. [Emphasis added.]
> 
> In substantive terms, a second joint statement – again, signed by Putin and Xi) – on the co-relation between the Russia-led Eurasian Economic Union [EAEU] and the China-led Silk Road Economic Belt initiatives stands out as a historic document that elevates the Sino-Russian partnership to unprecedented heights both at a practical level and in political terms.
> 
> China has formally stated in the joint statement for the first time its support for the integration processes Russia hopes to develop within the EAEU framework. Two, Moscow and Beijing have agreed to set up a dialogue mechanism for the integration (“docking”) of China’s Belt and Road initiative and Russia’s EAEU project. Three, China will begin talks with the EAEU in an economic and trade cooperation deal.
> 
> Indeed, the joint statement contains a big political statement to the effect that the two powers will cooperate in the stable development and regional economic integration of the Eurasian region as a whole and in an endeavor to “safeguard peace and stability on the Eurasian landmass.” (Xinhua)
> 
> In sum, the two big powers are committed to coordinating their policies with regard to the vast space encompassing the territories of the former Soviet Union stretching from Central Europe eastward to the Asia-Pacific. This scale of strategic partnership and coordination has no precedent in the history of Sino-Russian relations.
> 
> Specifically, eight measures have been identified in the economic sphere to boost regional cooperation, which includes, amongst others, an agreement to “study long-term objective of establishing a free trade zone between China and the EAEU”.
> 
> All-in-all, China’s fulsome endorsement of the EAEU and its participation in the Russia-led project (which is closely identified with Putin’s leadership) constitutes a rebuff to the United States which had opposed the project tooth and nail and dubbed it as “a move to re-Sovietize the region.”
> 
> Clearly, Tte cold blast of western propaganda against the EAEU failed to impress China. Theprophets of doom have fallen on their face. China’s integration with the EAEU means in effect that a real engine of growth is being hooked to the Russian project. In reality, China is the key to the future of the EAEU. Significantly, Xi has combined his visit to Moscow with a tour of Belarus and Kazakhstan, the two other founder members of the EAEU.
> 
> From the Chinese viewpoint, Moscow is now completely on board as regards its Belt and Road Initiative. This is vital for the implementation of the Silk Routes via Russia and Central Asia. Xi can draw satisfaction that it is Mission Accomplished. To be sure, his “business agenda” this week has been to push forward the realization of the Belt and Road Initiative enhancing interconnectivity with Eastern, Central and Western Europe.
> 
> China’s embrace of the EAEU increases the possibility of its cooperation with the European Union [EU] – given enough political will, of course, in Brussels. In the ongoing battle for influence and power in Eurasia, Moscow’s hands have been strengthened with China’s support for the EAEU.
> 
> On the other hand, China’s presence will also nudge he EAEU to take a pragmatic approach to economic issues. The bottom line is that the EU can no longer simply dismiss this Russia-led integration project. Exploratory efforts may have to begin at some point to identify where the interests of the two unions overlap and Brussels needs to ponder over potential forms of cooperation.
> 
> Without doubt, Washington will pull all stops to try to stop such a process of constructive engagement between Brussels and Moscow from advancing. Conceivably, therefore, this process with immense strategic overtones will likely be a long, slow process.



Hi Kulu, welcome back. I tell you one secret. Most Chinese are quite wary against Russia but PDF PRC will deny because they love their country and are willing to keep this conspiracy of silence.

China has lost most land to Russia and a lot of Chinese keep thinking about taking Outer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia and Outer Xinjiang back.

In the same way, Russia knew that and they are very suspicious of Chinese. Every now and then, Russian rant Chinese invading Siberia.

In USA, Chinese are allowed to migrate and accumulate wealth but not political power. 

In comparison, there are fewer Chinese in Russia than in USA and no Chinese has made it in Russia to the level of ABC..


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## BoQ77

China find Russia a nonstop oil supply. 
The only source for weapon.


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## kalu_miah

Lux de Veritas said:


> Hi Kulu, welcome back. I tell you one secret. Most Chinese are quite wary against Russia but PDF PRC will deny because they love their country and are willing to keep this conspiracy of silence.
> 
> China has lost most land to Russia and a lot of Chinese keep thinking about taking Outer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia and Outer Xinjiang back.
> 
> In the same way, Russia knew that and they are very suspicious of Chinese. Every now and then, Russian rant Chinese invading Siberia.
> 
> In USA, Chinese are allowed to migrate and accumulate wealth but not political power.
> 
> In comparison, there are fewer Chinese in Russia than in USA and no Chinese has made it in Russia to the level of ABC..



Thanks for the welcome.

While what you say is true, the present and future is more important than the past. All countries, specially neighbors have complicated relations. As of this moment and going towards future for quite a few decades, both Russia and China are useful for each other. So I believe it is a win win relationship for both, as it says in the article, written by an Indian diplomat (I wonder what Indians are thinking about this development). Russia is using China to balance against a threatening West and China accepted that role with open arms, as China is doing the same, trying to break the containment or balancing act (whatever you may call it) created by US Pivot to Asia and TPP, using Russia and Eurasian Economic Union and the Belt and Road initiative as a counter balance against the West's moves.

The main thing that I like about this scenario is that it is taking China in a route where it is leading economic integration of the Eurasian landmass, together with Africa (as you may recall regional integration and regionalism is one of my main passions). This means that eventually Russia, China and EU will get closer due to land based road and rail connectivity, and the US, sitting on the other side of Atlantic or Pacific ocean, will slowly loose influence over these landmass. The by product or result of economic integration in Eurasia-Africa will be more peace and prosperity for the billions of inhabitants in these areas, who have been a victim of Wests divide and rule exploitation and harmful interventions for last 2-3 centuries. Not everyone in the West will be looser, the Germans I am sure will consider moving EU away from US leadership a sweet revenge for WW II.

The US blew it when they decided to engage China in Nixon era, but that is because there is no super intelligent centralized group of strategists driving Western geopolitics, it is done by mostly some random clueless experts led by equally clueless politicians. So the West have dug its own grave in a way, but then what I like to say is absolute power corrupts absolutely and it is better for the world to be more multi-polar and "democratic". We should now be celebrating the demise of West's hegemony, not lamenting it.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Lux de Veritas said:


> Hi Kulu, welcome back. I tell you one secret. Most Chinese are quite wary against Russia but PDF PRC will deny because they love their country and are willing to keep this conspiracy of silence.
> 
> China has lost most land to Russia and a lot of Chinese keep thinking about taking Outer Manchuria, Outer Mongolia and Outer Xinjiang back.
> 
> In the same way, Russia knew that and they are very suspicious of Chinese. Every now and then, Russian rant Chinese invading Siberia.
> 
> In USA, Chinese are allowed to migrate and accumulate wealth but not political power.
> 
> In comparison, there are fewer Chinese in Russia than in USA and no Chinese has made it in Russia to the level of ABC..


 
LMAO that is a secret?  seem like you're more obsessed over China-Russia's history issue than you want to make other believe otherwise. For the current geopolitical situation -> 两利相权取其重，两害相衡取其轻

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## war is peace

ASEN said:


> Super Power China need Russia to save her arse.Russia never looked for anyone when USSR stand against USA. Why does China need Russia now ?


Another empty brain I'm sure Einstein will be proud of you. Go hug a transformer or better sleep on expressway to find out why. Shit

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## BoQ77

beijingwalker said:


> *Russia: China is Russia's key strategic and economic partner - Putin*
> 
> China is Russia's top strategic partner, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in Moscow, Friday. Speaking at a joint press conference with Chinese President Xi Jinping, following the signing of some 40 documents on enhancing the strategic partnership between the two countries, Putin highlighted the economic partnership between Russia and China announcing the figures of mutual trade in 2014, which amounted $88.4 billion (€78.5 billion). Putin added that the economic partnership between the countries will be expanded in both the energy and the investment sector. The Russian leader concluded his statement saying that the ultimate objective is to create a common economic space within the Eurasian continent.



I doubt he is talking about China money.


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## William Hung

BoQ77 said:


> Some are fair weather friends @Yorozuya right?



It's an alliance of convenience. If we describe it in terms of friendship, then yes, China and Russia are fair weather friends. 

I still believe that Viet Nam is the only true and best friend of China. Even though both countries often have brotherly fights, we are always, as Chairman Mao once said, close like teeth and lips.

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## Raphael

Yorozuya said:


> It's an alliance of convenience. If we describe it in terms of friendship, then yes, China and Russia are fair weather friends.
> 
> I still believe that Viet Nam is the only true and best friend of China. Even though both countries often have brotherly fights, we are always, as Chairman Mao once said, close like teeth and lips.




Mao said that about N. Korea. And he would probably recant his statement today if he saw the strained state of Sino-N. Korean relations.

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## xunzi

In any foreign relation, there is mutual benefit to call friendship. Our relation with Russia is based on that idea and it is often the same to any relation with other countries.

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## Viet

great. I look for a brother kiss between xi and putin like honecker (East Gernany) and breschnew (USSR)


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## Beidou2020

Viet said:


> great. I look for a brother kiss between xi and putin like honecker (East Gernany) and breschnew (USSR)



Yuk.


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## TaiShang

*China, Russia ink agreement on gold exploration*
(Xinhua) 15:26, May 11, 2015

BEIJING, May 11 -- China National Gold Group Corporation announced on Monday it has signed an agreement with Russian gold miner Polyus Gold to deepen ties in gold exploration.

The companies will cooperate in mineral resource exploration, technical exchanges and materials supply, the largest gold producer of China said.

Polyus Gold is the largest gold producer in Russia and one of the world's top 10 gold miners.

The agreement between the two gold miners is one of many deals signed between Chinaand Russia in energy, transportation, space, finance and media exchanges during PresidentXi Jinping's visit to Russia from May 8 to May 10.

"China's Belt and Road Initiative brings unprecedented opportunities for the gold industry.There is ample room for cooperation with neighboring countries, and we have advantagesin technique, facilities, cash, and talents," said Song Xin, general manager of China NationalGold Group Corporation.


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## kuge

beijingwalker said:


> *Russia And China Are Becoming Best Friends*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *Russia And China Are Becoming Best Friends - Forbes*


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## beijingwalker

*Russia, China to develop massive heavy-lift helicopter*
By: GREG WALDRON
SINGAPORE
Source: Flightglobal.com
20 hours ago
Russian Helicopters and China’s state aircraft manufacturer AVIC have entered a framework agreement to develop a heavy lift helicopter.

Russian Helicopters’ chief executive Alexander Mikheev and AVIC chairman Lin Zuoming signed the deal during a visit to Moscow by Chinese president Xi Jinping, who was present at the ceremony along with Russian president Vladimir Putin.

“The manufacture in China of a heavy-lift helicopter developed jointly by the two countries has been an important component of Russian-Chinese collaboration in the aviation industry, and today's signing ceremony marks the start of practical work on the project,” says Russian Helicopters in a statement.

“Under the agreement the parties will work on all areas of development and preparation to launch serial production of the new aircraft, named the Advanced Heavy Lift (AHL).”

The AHL will have a takeoff weight of 38-tonnes, and be able to carry 10-tonnes internally and 15-tonnes on an external sling. It will be able to operate in all weather and terrain conditions. Key missions include transportation, medical evacuation, and firefighting.”

By comparison, the Mil Mi-26, the world’s largest helicopter, can carry a payload of over 20-tonnes.

Russian Helicopters and AVIC foresee a potential market for 200 units, mainly in China. Preliminary technical specifications have been laid down, and the two companies will sign a contract later in 2015.
​Russia, China to develop massive heavy-lift helicopter - 5/11/2015 - Flight Global

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## Hamartia Antidote

2010
Russia, China to design, build heavy-lift helicopter

2011
Russian and China agree to the joint development of new heavy-lift helicopt

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## BoQ77

In brief, Russia want to build new design of heavy lift helicopter. And they want China to place massive order for that with big deposit. 
China has no ability to build heavy lift helicopter

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## Galad

BoQ77 said:


> China has no ability to build heavy lift helicopter


If put aside for a second your hatred for anything Chinese(of course you cant) and think-whole thing makes a sense.Russia has the knowledge and excellent engines,China has much bigger industrial capacity and money(which Russia can afford to spend right now-since there are much more important things at Russian priority list). Both countries have enough talented engineers and need for such helicopter.Once helicopter is ready in addition to domestic orders both countries will promote the product abroad and among their allies.As I have said whole thing makes a sense.

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## Cyberian

When is it likely to be available on the market?


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## BoQ77

Galad said:


> If put aside for a second your hatred for anything Chinese(of course you cant) and think-whole thing makes a sense.Russia has the knowledge and excellent engines,China has much bigger industrial capacity and money(which Russia can afford to spend right now-since there are much more important things at Russian priority list). Both countries have enough talented engineers and need for such helicopter.Once helicopter is ready in addition to domestic orders both countries will promote the product abroad and among their allies.As I have said whole thing makes a sense.



A fact always is a fact. If China has all elements for that design incl. big demand and money, they don't need Russian


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> A fact always is a fact. If China has all elements for that design incl. big demand and money, they don't need Russian



Boeing have to build 777 all by itself?

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## BoQ77

CCP said:


> Boeing have to build 777 all by itself?


Don't derail. Can China design and manufacture all by themselves ?


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## CCP

Long live China and Russia friendship!















Russia may buy this type of ship (054A)from China.

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## BoQ77

CCP said:


> Russia may buy this type of ship (054A)from China.



Joke of the year.


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## beijingwalker

Joint development doesn't mean that neither country can do it alone, it only means it's more cost effective and beneficial for each partner. US also joint develop weapons with many of its allies.

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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> Joke of the year.


You are the joke.

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## BoQ77

beijingwalker said:


> Joint development doesn't mean that neither country can do it alone, it only means it's more cost effective and beneficial for each partner. US also joint develop weapons with many of its allies.



You continue to avoid direct answer. Do you think China could design and make every items of those heavy lift helicopter? 
I could say Yes to Russia. They made heavy lift helicopter for several decades.


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> I could say Yes to Russia. They made heavy lift helicopter for several decades.


They made heavy lift helicopter for several decades ........with Ukraine and other former soviet countries.

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## beijingwalker

BoQ77 said:


> You continue to avoid direct answer. Do you think China could design and make every items of those heavy lift helicopter?
> I could say Yes to Russia. They made heavy lift helicopter for several decades.



You could say? who are you? if so, why they don't do it by themselves?

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## BoQ77

beijingwalker said:


> You could say? who are you? if so, why they don't do it by themselves?



Lemme explain:
Recently, Russia follow China in marketing their weapon in advance, when getting big order, getting the deposit, they start to develop the item. The customer pay for high cost with failures, flaws ... before they could get the right ones, maybe there're not good ones afterall.

If the development is good, Russia would mass produce that with improvement in their army/airforce with Zero cent of development cost. If not, they don't lose the development cost.

Su-30MKI is the project for Su-30SM, as you know. Indian pays

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## beijingwalker

What a superpower used to be able to do,doesnt mean they can still do it now. it comes and goes just like the superpower status itself.

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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> Lemme explain:
> Recently, Russia follow China in marketing their weapon in advance, when getting big order, getting the deposit, they start to develop the item. The customer pay for high cost with failures, flaws ... before they could get the right ones, maybe there're not good ones afterall.
> 
> If the development is good, Russia would mass produce that with improvement in their army/airforce with Zero cent of development cost. If not, they don't lose the development cost.
> 
> Su-30MKI is the project for Su-30SM, as you know. Indian pays


Ok, we all know India's examples.
Where is your Chinese example?

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## BoQ77

Latest example, it's AHL of course.
S400 also developed by China money, they get when sell so many S-300 system to China.
Russia sell 12 Kilo class to China, getting several billions dollar, improve it and sell 6 more of improved to Vietnam. And 6 more for them at the same time.


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## Beidou2020

Why didn't Russia choose Vietnam for joint production. Vietnam has the big market, the money and the technical expertise.

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## BoQ77

Vietnam never buy immature design.
Btw, Vietnam order looks quite small.

For mature design, when Vietnam want to mass production, Vietnam buy the design, like Molniya.



Beidou2020 said:


> Why didn't Russia choose Vietnam for joint production. Vietnam has the big market, the money and the technical expertise.


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> S400 also developed by China money, they get when sell so many S-300 system to China.
> Russia sell 12 Kilo class to China, getting several billions dollar, improve it and sell 6 more of improved to Vietnam. And 6 more for them at the same time.



All our weapon were developed by Vietnam money, we get when you buy Made in China computer...



BoQ77 said:


> Vietnam never buy immature design.
> Btw, Vietnam order looks quite small.
> 
> For mature design, when Vietnam want to mass production, Vietnam buy the design, like Molniya.



Tell me, which part of Molniya is build by Vietnam? 
Engine? radar? missile?

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## BoQ77

CCP said:


> All our weapon were developed by Vietnam money, we get when you buy Made in China computer...



LOL. HP, Asus, Toshiba, Sony, Acer ... all use Intel processors or SOC made in Vietnam.



CCP said:


> All our weapon were developed by Vietnam money, we get when you buy Made in China computer...
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me, which part of Molniya is build by Vietnam?
> Engine? radar? missile?



Hull: made in Vietnam
Engine: import
Radar : import
Missile : *Kh-35UV* - Developed by Vietnam and Russia, increasing range from 130 km to 300 km. Made in Vietnam


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## Beidou2020

BoQ77 said:


> Vietnam never buy immature design.
> Btw, Vietnam order looks quite small.
> 
> For mature design, when Vietnam want to mass production, Vietnam buy the design, like Molniya.



Vietnam has no money, no market and no expertise 

Vietnamese military budget is like pocket change for China.



BoQ77 said:


> LOL. HP, Asus, Toshiba, Sony, Acer ... all use Intel processors or SOC made in Vietnam.
> 
> 
> 
> Engine: import
> Radar : import
> Missile : made in Vietnam, with range 260km



Chinese PC market is the largest and the largest PC maker is Lenovo.
They don't make SOC in Vietnam 

Made in Vietnam missiles....dream on. Vietnam has NEVER made any weapon of relevant quality by itself. Never have and never ever will.

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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> LOL. HP, Asus, Toshiba, Sony, Acer ... all use Intel processors or SOC made in Vietnam.



Are you sure? Vietnam has the money to buy stepper?
Taiwan and Korea invested most their money to buy steppers.





BoQ77 said:


> Hull: made in Vietnam
> Engine: import
> Radar : import
> Missile : *Kh-35UV* - Developed by Vietnam and Russia, increasing range from 130 km to 300 km. Made in Vietnam



Who made the engine, radar of the missile?

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## BoQ77

Russian offer joint develop to China, because China is a big customer.
So the meaning of that is selling big quantity to China.

_Stop derail pls. stop refer to Vietnam. It doesn't make sense here._


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> Russian offer joint develop to China, because China is a big customer.
> So the meaning of that is selling big quantity to China.



If so, russia should offer all joint projects to India but not China.

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## Luca1

BoQ77 said:


> Lemme explain:
> Recently, Russia follow China in marketing their weapon in advance, when getting big order, getting the deposit, they start to develop the item. The customer pay for high cost with failures, flaws ... before they could get the right ones, maybe there're not good ones afterall.
> 
> If the development is good, Russia would mass produce that with improvement in their army/airforce with Zero cent of development cost. If not, they don't lose the development cost.
> 
> Su-30MKI is the project for Su-30SM, as you know. Indian pays



Good example of how Russia milk the Indians. Let's see if Vietnam is also smart enough to milk the Indians as well.

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## BoQ77

CCP said:


> If so, russia should offer all joint projects to India but not China.



Russia is not the only choice of India. 
Love their C-17 Globemaster fleet. very impressive.


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> Russia is not the only choice of India.
> Love their C-17 Globemaster fleet. very impressive.



You will be even more impressed by their il-76 fleet.

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## Usman.87

beijingwalker said:


> *Russia: China is Russia's key strategic and economic partner - Putin*
> 
> China is Russia's top strategic partner, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in Moscow, Friday. Speaking at a joint press conference with Chinese President Xi Jinping, following the signing of some 40 documents on enhancing the strategic partnership between the two countries, Putin highlighted the economic partnership between Russia and China announcing the figures of mutual trade in 2014, which amounted $88.4 billion (€78.5 billion). Putin added that the economic partnership between the countries will be expanded in both the energy and the investment sector. The Russian leader concluded his statement saying that the ultimate objective is to create a common economic space within the Eurasian continent.


You never know what Putin is up to??? He can turn the guns against China. Just like Crimea, Russia annexed Siberia into their territories in the 19th century.


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## Kyle Sun

BoQ77 said:


> I doubt he is talking about China money.


Money is THE POWER.

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## TaiShang

*Russian Helicopters, China's AVIC to Collaborate on Development of Advanced Heavy-lift Helicopter*

Russian Helicopters (part of State Corporation Rostec) and Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) have signed a framework agreement to work together on creating an advanced heavy helicopter. *The agreement was signed at the Moscow Kremlin today in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping by the CEO of Russian Helicopters, Alexander MIkheev, and the Chairman of the Board of Directors of AVIC, Lin Zuoming.*

The manufacture in China of a heavy-lift helicopter developed jointly by the two countries has been an important component of Russian-Chinese collaboration in the aviation industry, and today's signing ceremony marks the start of practical work on the project. Under the agreement the parties will work on all areas of development and preparation to launch serial production of the new aircraft, named the Advanced Heavy Lift (AHL).

"China is one of the fastest-growing helicopter markets worldwide, and we are interested in establishing long-term multilateral strategic relations with China so that both sides benefit from working together on helicopter-building projects," Russian Helicopters CEO Alexander Mikheev said. "It is vital that the idea of building an advanced heavy-lift helicopter has been supported by the presidents of both our countries. We firmly believe that implementation of this project will open new horizons for collaboration between China and Russia."

"Russian Helicopters is uniquely well-qualified when it comes to building heavy-lift helicopters," Chairman of the Board of Directors of AVIC Lin Zuoming said. "The legendary Mi-26 type helicopters, for example, have no equals, and the Mi-26TS played an important role in the aftermath of earthquakes in Sichuan province in 2008 and 2013. I believe that working together with Russian Helicopters to create an advanced heavy-lift helicopter will prove to be a productive project and one that will have a positive influence on the development of China's helicopter industry."

Experts estimate that demand for the new helicopter in China could exceed 200 aircraft by 2040. The AHL is planned to have a take-off weight of 38 tons, and to be able to carry 10 tons of cargo inside the cabin or 15 tons on an external sling. The helicopter will be designed to operate round-the-clock in hot climates, mountainous terrain and all weather conditions, and will be able to fly a highly varied range of missions 
from transportation to medevac, firefighting and much more.

*As of now Russian Helicopters and AVIC have drawn up the preliminary technical specifications of the new helicopter and are continuing work on finalising its figure. The parties plan to sign a general contract later this year.*

Russian Helicopters, (part of State Corporation Rostec), is one of the global leaders in helicopter production and the only helicopter design and production powerhouse in Russia. Russian Helicopters was founded in 2007 and is headquartered in Moscow. The company comprises five helicopter production facilities, two design bureaus, a spare parts production and repair facility, as well as an aftersale service branch responsible for maintenance and repair in Russia and all over the world. Its helicopters are popular among Russian ministries and state authorities (Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Emergency Control Ministry), operators (Gazpromavia, UTair), major Russian corporations. In 2014 its IFRS revenues increased 22,8% to RUB 169,8 billion. Deliveries reached 271 helicopters.


State Corporation Rostec is a Russian corporation founded in 2007 for the purpose of promoting the development, production and export of hi-tech civilian and military industry products. It comprises 700 organisations, nine of which have now been formed as holding companies of the military-industrial complex, five of them are involved in civil industries and 22 are directly controlled. Rostec's portfolio includes recognised brands such as Avtovaz, Kamaz, Russian Helicopters, and VSMPO-AVISMA. Rostec's organisations are located in 60 constituent entities of the Russian Federation and supply their products to the markets of more than 70 countries. The revenue of Rostec in 2013 amounted to RUB 1.04 trillion. The tax deductions into the treasuries at all levels exceeded RUB 138 billion.

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## TaiShang

*‘Belt and Road’ initiative moves forward with Xi's Eurasian trip*
May 08, 2015






President Xi at the Boao Forum for Asia 2015. (Photo/Xinhua)

As another starting point, President Xi Jinping's Eurasian trip will once more present the world with China's idea of advocating cooperation and win-win, as well as the openness and inclusiveness of Chinese diplomacy. May 7, 2015 marks a new milestone in the construction of "One Belt and One Road" with President Xi's visit to Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan.

It was in 2013, when visiting Indonesia, that President Xi first unveiled to the world theidea of building the Silk Road Economic Belt and the cooperation of 21st century maritime Silk Road. 

"One Belt and One Road" corresponds to the needs of China's development, as well as those of the other countries and regions along the line. It also serves the interests of all parties and conforms to the trend of global cooperation.

In the past year, China has proved to the world with its actions that "One Belt and OneRoad" is not just an idle dream. President Xi officially published "Vision and proposed actions outlined on jointly building Silk Road Economic Belt and 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road" at the Boao Forum for Asia 2015; focusing on the China-Pakistan economic corridor, which is an important part of the project, President Xi made his first visit in 2015 to Pakistan and injected new vigor. His upcoming visits to Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan will also give fresh momentum to the advocacy of "One Belt and One Road".

The project has succeeded in connecting with the national strategies of many other countries in the past year. The President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev wants to combine the New Economic Policy of Kazakhstan with China's "One Belt and One Road",Vladimir Putin, President of Russia, has shown his willingness to connect the construction of Eurasian railway to the building of the Silk Road Economic Belt, and President of Indonesia Joko Widodo wants to enhance maritime cooperation in the spirit of Indonesia's Global Maritime Fulcrum concept and China's 21st century Maritime Silk Road…

"One Belt and One Road" keeps marching forward: in Russia, leaders of both countries will discuss the simultaneous construction of the Silk Road Economic Belt, the Eurasian railway,and the development and cooperation of the Eurasian Economic Union; in Kazakhstan, President Xi and President Nazarbayev will plan out a blueprint for cooperation in all fields between China and Kazakhstan, as well as the construction of the Silk Road Economic Belt; in Belarus, President Xi will pay a visit to the China-Belarus industrial park, which is the biggest investment project between the two countries, and is promising to become a vital element of the Silk Road Economic Belt.

In 2014, China's outward investment surpassed the inflow of foreign investment for the very first time, and China has become a net exporter of capital. In the same year, China's commodity imports reached about 2 trillion dollars, which equates to the scale of a moderately developed country. Statistics released by the Ministry of Commerce show that the bilateral trade volume between China and countries along the "One Belt and One Road" in the first quarter of 2015 was 236 billion dollars, which represents 26 percent of the total volume of China’s foreign trade. All of these numbers demonstrate China's sincerity and determination to build the "One Belt and One Road" together with other countries.

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## xunzi

BoQ77 said:


> Don't derail. Can China design and manufacture all by themselves ?


Simple answer, yes. If we can build a master piece like a 5th gen stealth fighter, I think we deserve at least some credit for building a heavy lift helicopter. Don't you agree, my friend? LOL Listen. Why would we need to spend money on designing and time researching when we can collaborate with Russia to build a bigger and better existing model? It is economically and a smarter thing to achieve a priority item. It is a win-win collaboration.

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## BoQ77

xunzi said:


> Simple answer, yes. If we can build a master piece like a 5th gen stealth fighter, I think we deserve at least some credit for building a heavy lift helicopter. Don't you agree, my friend? LOL Listen. Why would we need to spend money on designing and time researching when we can collaborate with Russia to build a bigger and better existing model? It is economically and a smarter thing to achieve a priority item. It is a win-win collaboration.



At this moment only USA succeeded in building gen 5th stealth fighters f22, f35.
Prove me wrong, if you can


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> At this moment only USA succeeded in building gen 5th stealth fighters f22, f35.
> Prove me wrong, if you can




1. F-22 is the first and only finished 5th gen fighter. None can deny that.
But US have to buy Russian rockets to go to space.

2. I am not sure F-35 can be finish faster than J-20.

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## BoQ77

CCP said:


> 1. F-22 is the first and only finished 5th gen fighter. None can deny that.
> 
> 
> 2. I am not sure F-35 can be finish faster than J-20.



And I am not sure China could finish J-20 as a gen 5 fighter.


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## CCP

BoQ77 said:


> And I am not sure China could finish J-20 as a gen 5 fighter.



Ok, let's wait to see.


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## BoQ77

CCP said:


> 1. F-22 is the first and only finished 5th gen fighter. None can deny that.
> But US have to buy Russian rockets to go to space.
> 
> 2. I am not sure F-35 can be finish faster than J-20.







FORT WORTH, Texas (May 12, 2015) An F-35A Lightning II aircraft known as AF-73, rolled out of Lockheed Martin's aircraft final finishes facility on April 29, with the first set of vertical tails manufactured by the Australian company Marand.


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## Oldman1

CCP said:


> 1. F-22 is the first and only finished 5th gen fighter. None can deny that.
> But US have to buy Russian rockets to go to space.
> 
> 2. I am not sure F-35 can be finish faster than J-20.



No we don't. Its cheaper to use Russian rockets. But thats not saying the U.S. doesn't have any rockets.


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## BoQ77

Oldman1 said:


> No we don't. Its cheaper to use Russian rockets. But thats not saying the U.S. doesn't have any rockets.



It's similar to buying a cheap Made in China shirt doesn't mean we would be topless without it.


----------



## Raphael

Russia plans army training exercises with China, India| Reuters

SOCHI, Russia (Reuters) - Russian land forces will join troops from China, India, Mongolia and Belarus in a series of joint military training exercises during the second half of this year, President Vladimir Putin's office said on Wednesday.

The announcement, issued as Putin met top Russian military brass in the Black Sea resort of Sochi, will stir unease in Western capitals, whose relations with Moscow have deteriorated sharply during the year-long Ukraine crisis.

Moscow has become especially keen to build closer economic and other ties with the Asian giants China and India since the United States and European Union imposed sanctions on Russia last year over its annexation of Ukraine's Crimean region.

The joint military training exercises will have a focus on peace-keeping and anti-terrorist activities, the statement said.

Training exercises are also planned with troops from member countries of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (ODKB), which includes Russia and several former Soviet republics such as Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan.

Russia also plans a number of other training exercises for its armed forces this year, Wednesday's statement said, part of efforts to counter what Moscow portrays as an aggressive, anti-Russian stance by NATO.

Chinese President Xi Jinping and India's President Pranab Mukherjee joined Putin in Moscow last Saturday for a military parade marking the 70th anniversary of the allied victory over Nazi Germany in World War Two in Europe.

Western leaders skipped the event in protest over Russian policy in Ukraine.

Last week, Xi and Putin signed a $25 billion deal to boost Chinese lending to Russian firms and a host of other economic accords. China has also invited Russian troops to march in a parade in Beijing in September.

At Wednesday's meeting with military chiefs, Putin called for the swift completion of trials of new technology intended for Russia's land forces to allow for its deployment.

Putin also said work was continuing on planned rocket systems "with heightened capabilities" that would be able to circumvent anti-missile systems.

Putin held talks in Sochi on Tuesday with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, on his first trip to Russia since the start of the Ukraine crisis. But they made no concrete progress on ending it.

Russia denies Western and Ukrainian accusations that it is arming pro-Russian separatists battling the Kiev government's forces in eastern Ukraine, in a conflict that has killed more than 6,100 people.

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## LordTyrannus

this alliance is still fragile, but it is more reliable than the joke called nato hoax, which collects all the insignificant insects in the world as canon fodder.

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## 70U63

Watching at the moment.


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## Azizam

Something that as recently as a decade ago was almost never discussed in polite company—the prospect for a prolonged geopolitical struggle between the United States and China (Cold War 2.0)—is now Topic A in the foreign policy salons of both Washington and Beijing. In the United States, the centrist Council on Foreign Relations issued a lengthy report calling for the U.S. to “revise” its “grand strategy” toward China. In Beijing, Liu Mingfu, a colonel in the People’s Liberation Army and one of its most influential strategists, wrote in his recent book, _The China Dream_, “In the 21st century China and the United States will square off and fight to become the champion among nations.’’

War games, prospective weapons sales, a war of words over contested real estate in some far-flung part of the world. That’s all pretty much standard Cold War fare, familiar to anyone in Moscow or Washington who fought the last one. But a Washington vs. Beijing Cold War 2.0—should it prove to be unavoidable—would be very different from its predecessor.

*The fundamental, obvious difference is that Beijing would bring far more economic power to the contest than the Soviet Union ever did. Indeed, for Soviet citizens, the enduring image from the last days of Communism is empty shelves at the food store. And pretty much everywhere the Soviets exerted their influence—from Eastern Europe to Africa to Latin America—economic calamity ensued. The command and control, state-dominated form of economic management didn’t work, and that—more than how many nuclear weapons Moscow possessed—was what mattered in the end.*_ - something I once said on the forum _

Contrast that with China. Already the second-largest economy in the world, it may well surpass the United States as the biggest in a decade or so. While the state controls the commanding heights of the economy—banking, telecommunications, energy—it tries to do so in a market-friendly way, and it allows unfettered private enterprise in a range of industries (including, critically, high technology) that have helped drive China’s extraordinary three-decade-long ascent from poverty. Alibaba is but one recent example of a private Chinese company with an increasingly global footprint. Remember all those great Soviet companies with initial public offerings of billions of dollars on the Nasdaq or the New York Stock Exchange? Right. You don’t. Because there weren’t any.

China is in the business of deploying its economic power abroad in a big way. It invests heavily in infrastructure projects in Africa. It uses its massive foreign exchange reserves to buy up resources—oil, gas and minerals—throughout Africa and Latin America. This is often—inaccurately—described as “soft” power. Economic power is not the same as soft power. Soft power has to do with lots of things—the form of government, the transparency of government, the accountability of elites to the broad citizenry, what a country stands for and stands against. The projection of economic power means the ability to put money in local pockets. Beijing is doing that aggressively, and, given its enormous accumulation of foreign exchange reserves, it is in a position to continue to do so for quite some time, even as its frantic economic growth now slows.

The United States, in the view of many analysts, is in a different and arguably more difficult place. Its hard power—its military assets—still dwarfs China’s, even though Beijing has rapidly increased its defense spending in recent years. But the prospect of a Cold War between the two countries was—and to a certain extent still is—dismissed by many China hands in the U.S. because, as former National Security Council staffer Aaron Friedberg wrote last year in his book _A Contest for Supremacy_, “the enormous advantages the United States now enjoys are the product of its long-standing lead in the development and deployment of new technologies, and the unmatched ability of its huge and dynamic economy to carry the costs of military primacy.”

Is the United States still more technologically advanced than China? Absolutely. Is it still more innovative. Yes. But those leads are narrowing, and the U.S. plainly faces a host of domestic economic issues—from debt to demographics to an economy seemingly stuck at stall speed—that are daunting. As Friedberg wrote, “Whether [the United States] will continue to enjoy [its economic advantages] in a long-term strategic rivalry with China is by no means obvious.”

The other critical difference between Cold War 1.0 and the Cold War 2.0 that now looms is the simple fact that China is the most important market in the world for the Fortune 500. By contrast, the Soviet Union, for 99.5 percent of America’s biggest companies, simply didn’t exist. Beijing can use access to its market as leverage in geopolitical disputes, and in so doing will be playing to a core establishment constituency in the United States: big business. As long as China avoids an economic crisis that upends the current economic reality, that reality is going to be difficult for Washington to finesse as geopolitical competition intensifies.

There is, of course, tremendous irony in that. For decades, U.S. policy was to help China succeed economically. We had convinced ourselves that through trade and prosperity, political change would come in Beijing (just as it had in South Korea and Taiwan, former authoritarian economic success stories turned vibrant democracies). That notion is now long gone. The Chinese Communist Party, and its one-party rule, doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. It’s also playing a long game; its military is just a regional player now, but by 2049, when the party expects to celebrate its 100th anniversary in power, it may well be able to project force globally. That, anyway, is the intention of the more hawkish elements of the party and its military.

Washington had earnestly hoped that the days of a global struggle against a powerful adversary were gone, the stuff of history books. That it’s now waking up and acknowledging a different reality is step one in what Liu Mingfu calls the central “fight” for the 21st century.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/05/29/us-china-cold-war-333948.html

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## ArsalanKhan21

US is still at least 25 years ahead of China militarily and Americans need an adversary in order to justify defense budget which is more than the total of next ten countries in the list combined.

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## sword1947

Russia has been on line since 1950, please do not ignore her.

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## Indus Pakistan

Great article. There is litlle to be gained by giving off the stats that apply in 2015. More productive is to look at the trend. The gap between USA in 1980 and China was huge. It has shrunk now and will continue to shrink probably with fits and starts along the way.

However the fact is China will catch and go well past USA in time. This is fact unless people think the Chinese are intrinsically inferior to Americans. The reality is when China reaches number 1 slot or as I like to call it hyperpower there will be nothing significant about it.

In history China always was the dominant power. The loss of this status by China in the last 300 years was a aberration then the rule. So china will be just returning to her position of yesteryear.

I am too old and probably will not see that happen but the younger members here will witness this event ...

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## terranMarine

Atanz said:


> Great article. There is litlle to be gained by giving off the stats that apply in 2015. More productive is to look at the trend. The gap between USA in 1980 and China was huge. It has shrunk now and will continue to shrink probably with fits and starts along the way.
> 
> However the fact is China will catch and go well past USA in time. This is fact unless people think the Chinese are intrinsically inferior to Americans. The reality is when China reaches number 1 slot or as I like to call it hyperpower there will be nothing significant about it.
> 
> In history China always was the dominant power. The loss of this status by China in the last 300 years was a aberration then the rule. So china will be just returning to her position of yesteryear.
> 
> I am too old and probably will not see that happen but the younger members here will witness this event ...



While many members have often said we are living in interesting times, which is certainly not a false statement. I firmly believe those who are born in recent years or will be born some couple of years from now will absolutely live in interesting times as they shall withness the results of the changes China has been undergoing for the past 3 decades combined with the next 5-6 decades from now. By then most of us here won't be around to see it. We do have > 1.3 bln of people right now and the size will only increase by each passing year. It's gonna take a long long time before we can match Western standards in terms of GDP per capita. So the terminology of "developing country" is gonna stick to China for a long long time as we continue to become the #1 biggest economy.

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## Indus Pakistan

terranMarine said:


> While many members have often said we are living in interesting times, which is certainly not a false statement. I firmly believe those who are born in recent years or will be born some couple of years from now will absolutely live in interesting times as they shall withness the results of the changes China has been undergoing for the past 3 decades combined with the next 5-6 decades from now. By then most of us here won't be around to see it. We do have > 1.3 bln of people right now and the size will only increase by each passing year. It's gonna take a long long time before we can match Western standards in terms of GDP per capita. So the terminology of "developing country" is gonna stick to China for a long long time as we continue to become the #1 biggest economy.



Very well said. No country can do it in 30 years. USA's journey to greatness was probably full 100 years. In China's case I give it 50 years from now. Although the aggregate is already making waves ..

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## Beast

This article by the white of Cos will praise the US. US Military is of cos more powerful than China. But The US economic has hardly any money left. It is not way to compete with China in exerting economic influence. The stupid article trying to say US surplass China in all area which is nonsense. If so, why do he even talks about cold war when no competition even exist with China weak in all area.

Economic is where China exceed US many times. We have 4 trillion foreign reserves which we able to carry out silk road plan. Support russia despite western embargo with USD400billion cooperation. We even setup AIIB which rout the US hands down.

The US hardly even have money to upgrade any of its infrastruture and even need to ask China to come and invest in them. Economic Super power? What a joke 

The author is just a sour loser fabricating lies to make whiteman feel good.

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## TaiShang

First of of all, there is no likelihood of a cold war with China without Russia in it. The blocs are being formed and the US is not without allies, either.

Second, I thought that China was about to collapse. What happened?

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## Beast

TaiShang said:


> First of of all, there is no likelihood of a cold war with China without Russia in it. The blocs are being formed and the US is not without allies, either.
> 
> Second, I thought that China was about to collapse. What happened?


It's good that the American can always live in delusion that everything of China is behind them. I just hope that their awaken will not give them a rude shock

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## terranMarine

Beast said:


> It's good that the American can always live in delusion that everything of China is behind them. I just hope that their awaken will not give them a rude shock



Sun Tzu, always leave the Americans think they are the strongest and we still have 200 nukes

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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> It's good that the American can always live in delusion that everything of China is behind them. I just hope that their awaken will not give them a rude shock





terranMarine said:


> Sun Tzu, always leave the Americans think they are the strongest and we still have 200 nukes



Military is the only viable asset of US foreign policy. That's why they tend to show it off at every instance. That's in fact a serious abdication of reason. No wonder thay are incapable of producing good leadership ever since Bush Sr.

I guess China will continue to encourage the US to further get involved in a Cold War thinking and to bring in more military assets and thereby rationalizing the militarist mindset of the regime.

What China must not allow the US is to adopt is a developmentalist mindset. Thus, the more US patrolling in SCS, the better.

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## Beast

TaiShang said:


> Military is the only viable asset of US foreign policy. That's why they tend to show it off at every instance. That's in fact a serious abdication of reason. No wonder thay are incapable of producing good leadership ever since Bush Sr.
> 
> I guess China will continue to encourage the US to further get involved in a Cold War thinking by continously encouraging it to bring in more military assets and thereby rationalizing the militarist mindset of the regime.
> 
> What China must not allow the US to adopt is a developmentalist mindset. Thus, the more US patrolling in SCS, the better.


Precisely, US economic is declining and it's in that area that they are incompete and that's why they used the military provocation.

The AIIB which even pulls major US allies like UK, France and Australia clearly show the crack of US greenback.

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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> Precisely, US economic is declining and it's in that area that they are incompete and that's why they used the military provocation.
> 
> The AIIB which even pulls major US allies like UK, France and Australia clearly show the crack of US greenback.



We can even make a parallel between US' historic defeat at AIIB and the sudden increase in the China threat propaganda orhestrated by the US regime media. Somewhere along the line, China must have touched a very sensitive nerve of the US regime elites. 

That's an incredibly good sign of China's being on the right track.

Just encourage the US regime to further militarize its diplomacy to the extent that they are completely incapacitated from critical thinking.

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## terranMarine

TaiShang said:


> We can even make a parallel between US' historic defeat at AIIB and the sudden increase in the China threat propaganda orhestrated by the US regime media. Somewhere along the line, China must have touched a very sensitive nerve of the US regime elites.
> 
> That's an incredibly good sign of China's being on the right track.
> 
> Just encourage the US regime to further militarize its diplomacy to the extent that they are completely incapacitated from critical thinking.



USSR got dissolved for the well known reason, and whatever the US do let them continue. Their crazy defense budget will hurt them eventually.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> First of of all, there is no likelihood of a cold war with China without Russia in it. The blocs are being formed and the US is not without allies, either.
> 
> Second, I thought that China was about to collapse. What happened?



Your source must have been Vietnamese, that's what happened

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> Your source must have been Vietnamese, that's what happened



In fact, a bulk of the China collapse theory comes from the US.

Interestingly, a bulk of the US collapse theory used to come from much less developed countries.

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## Economic superpower

TaiShang said:


> Military is the only viable asset of US foreign policy. That's why they tend to show it off at every instance. That's in fact a serious abdication of reason. No wonder thay are incapable of producing good leadership ever since Bush Sr.
> 
> I guess China will continue to encourage the US to further get involved in a Cold War thinking and to bring in more military assets and thereby rationalizing the militarist mindset of the regime.
> 
> What China must not allow the US is to adopt is a developmentalist mindset. Thus, the more US patrolling in SCS, the better.



The US military diplomacy cannot compete with China's economic diplomacy. This is why China is winning.

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## Kyle Sun

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> US is still at least 25 years ahead of China militarily and Americans need an adversary in order to justify defense budget which is more than the total of next ten countries in the list combined.


make it 30～40 years


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## AndrewJin

TaiShang said:


> In fact, a bulk of the China collapse theory comes from the US.
> 
> Interestingly, a bulk of the US collapse theory used to come from much less developed countries.


We need send or make more dear Gordon Chang sort of agents, just love him.

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## xunzi

We are not the one seeking to have a cold war. I can guarantee you that. This is what the USA wants, an unstable world so they get to keep their force abroad and maintain hegemony.

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## ChineseTiger1986

BEIJING: China will be the largest shareholder in the newly floated Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) with a 30.85 per cent stake followed by India and Russia, Chinese officials have said. 

"Based on the AIIB members' GDP weight in the world economy, China will become the bank's largest shareholder, followed by India and Russia," Chen Fengying, a research fellow at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, told state-run Global Times. 

China is likely to have a 30.85 per cent share in the bank, followed by India with 10.4 per cent, the daily quoted media reports as saying. 

"Whether measured by nominal GDP or the purchasing power parity-adjusted GDP, it makes sense for China to be the biggest capital contributor and the most influential decision maker among all the Asian members," Ma Tieying, an economist with Singapore-based DBS Bank, told the Global Times. 

Based on the GDP and Purchasing Power Parity, ( PPP) China was expected to get the post of President followed by India as one of the Vice Presidents. 

German Ambassador to China Michael Clauss said Germany will have a director on the board of the AIIB. 

Clauss said that Germany was in favour of a board of directors that represented the regions joining the Beijing-led bank and had the power to approve projects. 

He said China would be an influential player in the bank, as was the United States in the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund, but he added that the bank would be operated in accordance with international procedures, including the requirement of a super qualified majority for voting to approve critical projects. 

"For us, it is important that the standards do not differ too much from those adopted by the IMF, World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. Our feeling is that Beijing does respect that it has to adhere to international standards and procedures," he was quoted as saying by the Hong Kong based South China Morning Post. 

Founding members of the bank will initially pay up to one-fifth of its USD 50 billion authorised capital, which will be raised to USD 100 billion. 

A total of 57 countries have joined AIIB as founding members, including 37 from Asia, which is set to mainly finance major infrastructure projects in Asia, Shi Yaobin, China's vice finance minister has said earlier. 

An agreement on the structure of the bank will be signed before the end of June, he said. 

Meanwhile, the chief negotiators of the 57 prospective founding members held their fifth meeting in Singapore to finalise the Bank's structure. 

Read more at:
China, India, Russia to be top 3 shareholders of AIIB: Report - The Economic Times

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## TaiShang

Economic superpower said:


> The US military diplomacy cannot compete with China's economic diplomacy. This is why China is winning.



China's needs to encourage the US to delve into more militarist stance. Hence their growing assertiveness in the SCS is to be welcomed. Apart from the practical benefit of experience building for the future more serious contingencies and also gauging enemy's reactions and thinking patterns, it offers China the window of opportunity to engage its partners in development-related activity. 

Besides, it is China's home turf, and what China has to do is simply go ahead with its regular build-up work. The US on the other, has to burn real money on inconclusive harassments.

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## Raphael

Soros: US on the Brink of World War III With China / Sputnik International

Military spending is on the rise in China, where there is an effort to transition to a domestic-demand-led economy from exports, Soros said at the Bretton Woods conference at the World Bank.

If that move falters, he said, there is a "likelihood" that China’s leaders would promote an external conflict – possibly with a US ally – to keep the country together and hold on to power.

"If there is conflict between China and a military ally of the United States, like Japan, then it is not an exaggeration to say that we are on the threshold of a third world war," Soros was quoted as saying by MarketWatch.

He called on the United States to make a "major concession" and allow China's currency to join the International Monetary Fund's basket of currencies. This would make the yuan a potential rival to the dollar as a global reserve currency.

In return, China would have to make similar major concessions to reform its economy, such as accepting the rule of law, Soros said.

Allowing China's yuan to be a market currency would create "a binding connection" between the two systems, he argued. Such an agreement will be difficult to broker, Soros acknowledged, but the alternative could be global catastrophe.

"Without it, there is a real danger that China will align itself with Russia politically and militarily, and then the threat of third world war becomes real, so it is worth trying."


Read more: Soros: US on the Brink of World War III With China / Sputnik International

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## Jlaw

Soros, one of the great illuminati member. Rothschild's right hand man.

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## faisal6309

Where will Pakistan and India stand?


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## j20blackdragon

If WWIII begins, China expands like this.

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## Infinity

faisal6309 said:


> Where will Pakistan and India stand?


India will stand where it is........................We will not fight for TOM, DICK and HARRY..........................India will avoid itself into a war unless her sovereignty is challenged.

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## 21stCentury

From Steve Grant of British Colombia from comment section of article link:

_*"In return, China would have to make similar major concessions to reform its economy, such as accepting the rule of law, Soros said."*

Rule of law......lol Rule of law means that you let the IMF extort you. I don't think that is what China is looking to do, so the "US" will be starting the war, to make China capitulate to the IMF.
_​_
Steve you are absolutely correct. This is the type of rubbish you'd expect from guys like George Soros and other American think tankers and analysis. Basically, obey "international law" which synonymously is the same as saying 'subjugate yourself and obey United States rules'. Nahh...how 'bout FWAK YOU Soros. 

_

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## cnleio

LOL... this guy using WWIII to threat U.S, to allow China's YUAN as international currency into the International Monetary Fund. I do believe U.S not afraid WWIII, but collapse of USD as global reserve currency is their weakness.

_Good Job, SIR ~!  Just take care, don't die in next "traffic accident" ... _


> He called on the United States to make a "major concession" and allow China's currency to join the International Monetary Fund's basket of currencies. This would make the yuan a potential rival to the dollar as a global reserve currency.


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## faisal6309

Infinity said:


> India will stand where it is........................We will not fight for TOM, DICK and HARRY..........................India will avoid itself into a war unless her sovereignty is challenged.


Yes you will. Because China is your enemy and Pakistan will be helping its friend.


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## feilong

WW3 U.S vs China will be fought on Philippine soil. Let vote where it will be fight not on the SCS of course, don't even think about fighting on mainland soil. I would said WW3 will be on India soil.



Infinity said:


> India will stand where it is........................We will not fight for TOM, DICK and HARRY..........................India will avoid itself into a war unless her sovereignty is challenged.


India will be the battleground for China and US ww3.


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## Echo_419

feilong said:


> WW3 U.S vs China will be fought on Philippine soil. Let vote where it will be fight not on the SCS of course, don't even think about fighting on mainland soil. I would said WW3 will be on India soil.
> 
> 
> India will be the battleground for China and US ww3.



Plz try to post some sense


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## Infinity

faisal6309 said:


> Yes you will. Because China is your enemy and Pakistan will be helping its friend.


Who said China is our Enemy..............I agree with you on Pakistan.................Remember your Friend didn't Help you during 1971.................1


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## feilong

Echo_419 said:


> Plz try to post some sense


Well at least I have make you pee your pant. Hahahaha


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## Infinity

feilong said:


> WW3 U.S vs China will be fought on Philippine soil. Let vote where it will be fight not on the SCS of course, don't even think about fighting on mainland soil. I would said WW3 will be on India soil.
> 
> 
> India will be the battleground for China and US ww3.


India is not Colony of US nor we are in NATO like you.............How could you imagine that China will fight US in India............I pity your International affairs Knowledge


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## Tea addict

j20blackdragon said:


> If WWIII begins, China expands like this.


China invades Pakistan,Afghanistan,Iran and Central Asia? 
and also loose its eastern coast and mainland to US?
according to your picture.

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## feilong

Infinity said:


> India is not Colony of US nor we are in NATO like you.............How could you imagine that China will fight US in India............I pity your International affairs Knowledge


It look like Modi Ji wanting to become a state of the U.S. lol don't you see he in US and bow down to obambam. Every post you Indian post are cheerleading for US, well it prove that you are now colony to US. You wish is come true, when US poke your *** with some bucks.


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## Tea addict

feilong said:


> It look like Modi Ji wanting to become a state of the U.S. lol don't you see he in US and bow down to obambam. Every post you Indian post are cheerleading for US, well it prove that you are now colony to US. You wish is come true, when US poke your *** with some bucks.


nice story bro.


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## Lucid Thoughts

faisal6309 said:


> Where will Pakistan and India stand?



Together repelling the horde from the North, East, and West. Will be quite a unifying moment for desis.


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## Infinity

feilong said:


> Are you represent your India nation, the only retarded country of the world?


Your English have a Punjabi accent.....................


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## faisal6309

Lucid Thoughts said:


> Together repelling the horde from the North, East, and West. Will be quite a unifying moment for desis.


We have even dreamed for nuking alien warships together. The similar thing in both is that its never gonna happen unless...



Infinity said:


> Who said China is our Enemy..............I agree with you on Pakistan.................Remember your Friend didn't Help you during 1971.................1


We didn't help them in 1962 too and remember vietnam?


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## pher

If US want to play, we will happy to meet its wish.

In this world only 2 nations don't care about US, we are happy to be one of the 2.


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## Zero_wing

you people don't about anybody even your own as long it keeps the CCP in power


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## WAR-rior

faisal6309 said:


> Where will Pakistan and India stand?


Its Pakistan which is champion is fighting other'S wars. Not India. Indian people wont allow India to enter the war.


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## onebyone

中俄眷侣共谱神话 为爱起舞空中杂技秀高难动作_新浪视频


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## xhw1986

While the world watches Moscow’s ostentatious commemoration of 70th anniversary of the end of World War II this Saturday, the eyes of Russia’s politicians and bankers will be firmly fixed on China’s President Xi Jinping — or, more specifically, on his pen.

Xi, who will attend the WWII festivities as part of his three-day trip to Moscow, has already inked a number of deals this week cementing China’s investment in Russia’s floundering economy. While the two countries have played up Xi’s budding friendship with Russian President Vladimir Putin, experts say China is playing coy and stands to gain from Russia’s desperation. One went so far as to say Beijing has become Moscow’s “loan shark.”

As Western investors flee, Russian companies have struggled to obtain financing. To that end, Xi signed a $25 billion deal on Thursday that will allow China to lend to Russian companies at rates lower than what they can access domestically.
Moscow has been hit hard by a combination of low oil prices and economic sanctions imposed by Western countries after its annexation of Crimea.

China has driven a hard line on its gas dealings with Russia, insisting Moscow pony up more for infrastructure costs. Russia is hesitant precisely for the reasons it wants the deal in the first place: draining coffers and a lack of Western investment. Several experts told VICE News that China is happy to let negotiations drag on in an effort to extract lower prices from Russia for the gas.

Observers say China is better positioned in almost every way to benefit as Russia scrambles for liquidity. The $25 billion lending deal is just a drop in the bucket for Beijing, and, in the event of defaults, it will be guaranteed by the Kremlin's Russian Direct Investment Fund.

China Is Becoming Russia’s Economic ‘Loan Shark’ :: Schwartzreport

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## FairAndUnbiased

lmao they make it seem like this is the IMF and Argentina... or Zimbabwe... or India in 1991... or... wow, have I said too much?

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## ChineseTiger1986

The double standard simply has no limit, white can become black and black can become white.

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## LordTyrannus

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The double standard simply has no limit, white can become black and black can become white.



In your pipedreams comrade.

White stays always white and black stays always black.


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## UKBengali

China will prop up Russia whatever the cost.

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## LordTyrannus

UKBengali said:


> China will prop up Russia whatever the cost.



China is a big zero. Their leaders will change on a daily basis, when they get their first military defeats on sea from japan and us navy.

Do you even know how inferior Chinese submarine technology and navy technology is?

They are just copycats. They don´t even understand what they are copy pasting. Made from the baddest materials.


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## Azizam

LordTyrannus said:


> China is a big zero. Their leaders will change on a daily basis, when they get their first military defeats on sea from japan and us navy.
> 
> Do you even know how inferior Chinese submarine technology and navy technology is?
> 
> They are just copycats. They don´t even understand what they are copy pasting. Made from the baddest materials.


Calm down comrade. Mother Russia is a dead horse.


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## LordTyrannus

Azizam said:


> Calm down comrade. Mother Russia is a dead horse.



Like CCP is a trojan horse for chinese people. or my i say against chinese people?

Mao was illuminati. he was ordered to destroy chinese culture. Illuminati started their war against china with opium dealers to destroy chinese community. later they created communist maniacs who killed their own fathers, mothers and children to worship the demigod mao.

CCP ordered 1 child policy, so poor chinese will be erased from china and only the rich illuminati supporters will survive.


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## Aepsilons

LordTyrannus said:


> Like CCP is a trojan horse for chinese people. or my i say against chinese people?
> 
> Mao was illuminati. he was ordered to destroy chinese culture. Illuminati started their war against china with opium dealers to destroy chinese community. later they created communist maniacs who killed their own fathers, mothers and children to worship the demigod mao.
> 
> CCP ordered 1 child policy, so poor chinese will be erased from china and only the rich illuminati supporters will survive.




lol, illuminati ? 

Are you serious ? 

Don't tell me you actually believe in these Rothchild conspiracy theories, lol. 



lol

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## Aepsilons

LordTyrannus said:


> you fucktard, the global elite is creating such conspiracy theories themselfs to distract people like you.
> 
> NSA is Illuminati.
> 
> write it backwards "itanimulli" on google and watch were it brings you.




Hahahahahahahaha

*falls off dark black leather couch laughing*


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## NaMaloom

Russia essentially screwed itself royally to satisfy Putin's ego when it illegally invaded and captured Crimea. Now enjoy drifting back to the 1980s under crippling western sanctions!

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## Aepsilons

LordTyrannus said:


> stupid mangaboy. illuminati hates you and they will send you towards china as canon fodder. maybe you will die in south china sea as canon fodder.
> 
> you are stupid, i don´t feel pitty for you.




And I love you too, buddy. The more you hate, the more I love you. 



NaMaloom said:


> Russia essentially screwed itself royally to satisfy Putin's ego when it illegally invaded and captured Crimea. Now enjoy drifting back to the 1980s under crippling western sanctions!




To the strategic benefit of China.

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## DarkElf

LordTyrannus said:


> you fucktard, the global elite is creating such conspiracy theories themselfs to distract people like you.
> 
> NSA is Illuminati.
> 
> write it backwards "itanimulli" on google and watch were it brings you.



Yahoo answer.......

if you type itanimulli.com it goes to nsa's website? | Yahoo Answers


> Some people want to make a conspiracy out of this, and want to know why the White House and the NSA would want an Illuminati domain to point back to their respective sites. This answer took me 1 minute to solve. The answer is that it's not their domain.
> 
> I went to GoDaddy.com and did a Who-Is search for the domain's to find out who the owners are. They are owned by a two different dudes. I normally would not post someone's name and address, but in this case it is public information and is directly relevant. This is all public information that is easily accessible to anyone wanting to know.
> 
> Itanimulli.us is owned by:
> Scott Lamb
> 25 Venita Drive
> Athens, Georgia 30606
> United States
> GoDaddy search results: Link
> 
> Itanimulli.com is owned by:
> John Fenley
> 1985N 360E
> Provo, Utah 84604-1803
> United States
> GoDaddy search results: Link
> 
> *All that is going on here is this: These two guys bought the addresses, and then did a redirect for each domain. They simply made Itanimulli.us forward visitors to WhiteHouse.gov, and Itanimulli.com forward visitors to NSA.gov.
> 
> Mystery solved. Nothing nefarious here. Just practical jokers creating an internet myth. *


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## Azizam

LordTyrannus said:


> Like CCP is a trojan horse for chinese people. or my i say against chinese people?
> 
> Mao was illuminati. he was ordered to destroy chinese culture. Illuminati started their war against china with opium dealers to destroy chinese community. later they created communist maniacs who killed their own fathers, mothers and children to worship the demigod mao.
> 
> CCP ordered 1 child policy, so poor chinese will be erased from china and only the rich illuminati supporters will survive.


lol ok. It Putin illuminati too?


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## C130

forget Russia what about Venezuela. China has lent them over $50 billion over the last 8 years. getting paid back in oil. .China is getting nearly 50% more oil since the collpase of oil prices instead of Venezuela paying off those loans with $100+oil it's in the $50 dollar range.


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## LordTyrannus

Azizam said:


> lol ok. It Putin illuminati too?



No.



DarkElf said:


> Yahoo answer.......
> 
> if you type itanimulli.com it goes to nsa's website? | Yahoo Answers



you stupido. NSA server accepting this link to its website. NSA can easily disabling this. but they don´t because they are satanists and proud about beeing illuminati.

Edward snowden was so scared about nsa/illuminati that he fled to Russia.


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## Aepsilons

LordTyrannus said:


> Do you know advanced theoretical physics?



Yes, i do. 



LordTyrannus said:


> Do you know what Microwaves are and how they are beeing created?
> 
> Microwaves dissolve the atomic nucleus and heat up the atomic structure of materials. That is why your meal is cooking in the microwave oven. There is no thermal heat in microwave oven.
> 
> This same microwave weapons can be used concentrated over huge distances in scalar wave forms to heat up geo structures inside of the earth, beneath the ocean plateus.
> 
> The fukushima earthquake and tsunami was not a natural disaster. also not the tsunami in the indian ocean killing nearly 200.000 people.



lol. 

lol.


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## LordTyrannus

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Yes, i do.
> 
> 
> 
> lol.
> 
> lol.



No you don´t FANBOY.

you japanese gypsie. go read some mangas.


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## Aepsilons

LordTyrannus said:


> No you don´t FANBOY.
> 
> you japanese gypsie. go read some mangas.




Da da ! Das ve dan ya !

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## Lux de Veritas

It is the west screwing Putin and Putin really got screwed. USA got nothing else better to do by creating an enemy. Russia have always want peace with USA.

Not a single Russian can stomach the lost of Ukraine, unless this guy is a race traitor. The lost of Ukraine is like China losing yellow river, India losing Indus, Germany losing Rhein..etc. And Putin is acting in restrain.

USA will pay the bad karma for her bad in Russia.

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## LordTyrannus

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Da da ! Das ve dan ya !








they killed thousands of dumb japanese and you watch my funny video and laugh mangaboy.

HAHAHAHA


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## NaMaloom

Lux de Veritas said:


> It is the west screwing Putin and Putin really got screwed. USA got nothing else better to do by creating an enemy. Russia have always want peace with USA.
> 
> Not a single Russian can stomach the lost of Ukraine, unless this guy is a race traitor. The lost of Ukraine is like China losing yellow river, India losing Indus, Germany losing Rhein..etc. And Putin is acting in restrain.
> 
> USA will pay the bad karma for her bad in Russia.




Putin is only in power cuz of Russia's nukes. It is the West that is acting with restraint cuz of Russian nukes, otherwise Russian army would have been slapped around and defeated and sent back to the Kremlin's where-the-sun-dont-shine for Putin's illegal invasion of Crimea. Russia is a joke!


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## Lux de Veritas

Russian despite all her past wrong did liberated Europe from Nazi.

And during 1989, 300,000 Russian troops left Germany without firing a shot, unprecedented in history. Russia could have stayed there now we still see 2 Germany.

Russia also allow Nato to her doorstep, and even former USSR land like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

The conduct of western europe today against Russia is really Brutus style of ungrateful.



NaMaloom said:


> Putin is only in power cuz of Russia's nukes. It is the West that is acting with restraint cuz of Russian nukes, otherwise Russian army would have been slapped around and defeated and sent back to the Kremlin's where-the-sun-dont-shine for Putin's illegal invasion of Crimea. Russia is a joke!



Russian defeated Napolean and Hitler. Dont play with them.


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## NaMaloom

Lux de Veritas said:


> Russian defeated Napolean and Hitler. Dont play with them.




That wasn't Putin's Russia. Lets not confuse different type frames of history with what Russia is today. It is a country run by Putin and his corrupt scum friends and where dissent or opposition is silenced. Plain and simple.


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## LordTyrannus

NaMaloom said:


> That wasn't Putin's Russia. Lets not confuse different type frames of history with what Russia is today. It is a country run by Putin and his corrupt scum friends and where dissent or opposition is silenced. Plain and simple.



Putin kills corrupt scums like JUKOS oligarch jews.


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## Lux de Veritas

NaMaloom said:


> That wasn't Putin's Russia. Lets not confuse different type frames of history with what Russia is today. It is a country run by Putin and his corrupt scum friends and where dissent or opposition is silenced. Plain and simple.



Putin is trying to make Russia stand up. 

The Russian scum are those Jewish Oligarch who stole the country and now staying in Israel and London.


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## NaMaloom

Lux de Veritas said:


> Putin is trying to make Russia stand up.
> 
> The Russian scum are those Jewish Oligarch who stole the country and now staying in Israel and London.




Illegally invading another country - no matter what pretext - is not standing up for yourself. Its about losing everything you have painstakingly built over the last two decades. In the blind of an eye, Russia went from a country working together with the Western world to become an isolationist pariah. Russian economy does NOT have inbuilt mechanisms in place to handle prolonged Western sanctions. Russians would be wise to pray there isn't another repeat of the Soviet collapse.


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## Lux de Veritas

NaMaloom said:


> Illegally invading another country - no matter what pretext - is not standing up for yourself. Its about losing everything you have painstakingly built over the last two decades. In the blind of an eye, Russia went from a country working together with the Western world to become an isolationist pariah. Russian economy does NOT have inbuilt mechanisms in place to handle prolonged Western sanctions. Russians would be wise to pray there isn't another repeat of the Soviet collapse.



Are you talking about USA or Saudi?

Russia did annex Crimea and I do not support it. But USA conduct is worse.

Personally I do not like Russia due to her conduct with China. But I need to speak the truth.


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## LordTyrannus

Lux de Veritas said:


> Are you talking about USA or Saudi?
> 
> Russia did annex Crimea and I do not support it. But USA conduct is worse.
> 
> Personally I do not like Russia due to her conduct with China. But I need to speak the truth.



Yeah speak the truth like anyone cares.

the stupidity of the usual human lowlife creature is just passed from the uglyness of your monkey like faces.

i think a good doze of finest radiation will make you all look much better.


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## Huan

LordTyrannus said:


> Yeah speak the truth like anyone cares.
> 
> the stupidity of the usual human lowlife creature is just passed from the uglyness of your monkey like faces.
> 
> i think a good doze of finest radiation will make you all look much better.


For a Russian, you have such a vulgar attitude in trying to act tough. While Putin's Russia is desperately milking mother China's bosom due to western sanctions.

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## NaMaloom

LordTyrannus said:


> Trying to more bullchit eh?
> 
> What is with USA invading iraq? Destroying it completely and leaving it back in pieces.
> 
> Look western bootlicker. Do not waste your time against Russians with their weapons. They will kill you without hesitation. Most of you smelly tiny brownish people are not even human compared to the usual Russian.
> 
> USA and Russia will waste you like the dirt you are, in WW3.




Your childish rants are of little use on me. Go fight with kids your age with your schoolyard bickering and racist trolling. Pretty sure you won't be around on this forum for longer.



Lux de Veritas said:


> Are you talking about USA or Saudi?
> 
> Russia did annex Crimea and I do not support it. But USA conduct is worse.
> 
> Personally I do not like Russia due to her conduct with China. But I need to speak the truth.




United States conduct may well be worse, but this thread is about Russia, not USA.

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## Aepsilons

NaMaloom said:


> Your childish rants are of little use on me. Go fight with kids your age with your schoolyard bickering and racist trolling. Pretty sure you won't be around on this forum for longer.




Don't worry about our Russian friend, he's on break right now.


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## FairAndUnbiased

LordTyrannus said:


> Do you know advanced theoretical physics?
> 
> Do you know what Microwaves are and how they are beeing created?
> 
> Microwaves dissolve the atomic nucleus and heat up the atomic structure of materials. That is why your meal is cooking in the microwave oven. There is no thermal heat in microwave oven.
> 
> This same microwave weapons can be used concentrated over huge distances in scalar wave forms to heat up geo structures inside of the earth, beneath the ocean plateus.
> 
> The fukushima earthquake and tsunami was not a natural disaster. also not the tsunami in the indian ocean killing nearly 200.000 people.



I hold a MS in physics. Microwaves have pretty much nothing to do with the nucleus.


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## TaiShang

*Have a Nice Trip: Tourist Season Kicks Off in Crimea*
09:14 01.05.2015








*The tourist season opens in Russia's Crimean Federal District on May 1; a whole array of variety acts and musical performances are scheduled for later in the day, according to Crimean Resorts and Tourism Minister Elena Yurchenko.*





French Investors Express Interest in Crimea Vineyards

Since the advent of rail travel in the 19th century, Crimea has primarily been regarded by Russians as a destination for tourists.

May 1, which is celebrated as Labor Day in Russia, is also the first of the tourist season in Crimea, where a wide range of variety acts and live musical performances will be held for visitors, Crimean Resorts and Tourism Minister Elena Yurchenko said, according to the Russian news agency Ria Novosti.

"We understand the approximate number of applications for the active phase of the summer tourist season in 2015. And already today we can say that the tourist season will take place", she said.

According to her, 250 sanatoriums and other resorts are already opening their doors for tourists in Crimea, and their number will increase to 680 by June 10. Although sanatoriums in Europe and North America were once primarily associated with the treatment of long-term illnesses such as tuberculosis, in Crimea and elsewhere in Russia the term is used to describe wellness resorts.

Separately, tourists can use rented houses and private mini-hotels in Crimea.

A total of 20 tours to Crimea to mark the May holidays have been prepared by local tour operators, Yurchenko said, adding that a tour lasts between two and eight days. The cost usually varies from 2,800 to 30,000 rubles per person.

When in Crimea, tourists can visit picturesque palaces such as Vorontsov Palace, Livadia Palace, Massandra Palace and Khan's Palace, as well as the neo-Gothic Swallow's Nest castle, the Genoese fortress of Sudak, the ruins of the classical Greek city of Chersonesus and the llya Aivazovsky National Gallery.

The number of tourists that are expected to visit the peninsula in 2015 stands at 4.3 million tourists, which is a 15 percent increase over with the number of those who visited Crimea in 2014.

At least 125,000 tourists are expected to visit the peninsula in the next few days, which should see fine weather, according to forecasters.

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## UKBengali

LOL @ people thinking that Western sanctions will make Russia kneel.

China + India are enough for Russia to ride out Western sanctions.

The West is losing it's dominance on this planet - people should look at what is happening before our very eyes and not look at the past.

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## Reashot Xigwin




----------



## Raphael

*I know of no comparable global Great Project to equal what is now unfolding, bit-by-bit, as China reveals more about her Silk Road Economic Belt high-speed railway infrastructure network. And it’s now clear that the road will be filled with entire new cities, industrial zones, construction, improving standards of living for hundreds of millions of people previously abandoned. The implications for founding a new global alternative to the bankrupt dollar system are immense.*
The Chinese don’t dither around when they’ve reached a consensus. The project of President Xi Jinping to develop a new economic space across Eurasia from Beijing to the borders of the European Union, which he unveiled during one of his first foreign visits as President in 2013 in Kazakhstan, is now known as the New Silk Road Economic Belt.

The project is emerging as the centerpiece of a renaissance in infrastructure construction that will transform and lift the entire world economy for decades. For the economic space encompassing China and Asia, a recent study estimated that over the next years some $8 trillion of infrastructure investment will be needed to bring those economies into modern standards of commerce and development.

*A rail renaissance*

China began several years ago drawing up plans for a colossal Eurasian and Asian rail infrastructure series of high-speed railroads to provide a future alternative to transport trade to the world. In 2010 Wang Mengshu of the Chinese Academy of Engineering revealed in an interview that China was examining plans to construct a high-speed railway system that will weave together high-speed rail links across Asia and Europe by 2025.

That same year China began what then was the first leg of three planned rail legs. The domestic Chinese part of one route starts in Kunming in Yunnan Province and runs south to Singapore. A second route starts in Urumqi, capital of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, and connect Central Asian countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan with Germany. A third line will connect the city of Heilongjiang in northern China with Eastern and Southern European countries via Russia. At that time China’s aim was to create a pan-Asian rail network to connect 28 countries with 81,000 kilometers of railways.

With Chinese diligence, the country began buying the state-of-the-art high-speed rail equipment from Germany, France, Japan and Canada. By 2010 China had developed its own high-speed rail systems, with advanced trains which run at over 350 kilometers per hour. By 2012 China had built 42 high-speed lines inside China, conceived in their national planning as preparation to launch the greater Eurasia and Asia expanded rail links. China understands the economic value of infrastructure as few nations today. Given the extent of deployment internally since then, today China stands to become the world’s leading exporter of advanced high-speed railway technology to the nations of Asia and Eurasia including Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus.

On September 7, 2013 in a speech before Kazakhstan President Nursultan Nazarbayev, China’s newly-installed President Xi proposed, for the first time officially, his global New Silk Road strategy, suggesting that China and Central Asia join to build a “Silk Road Economic Belt” to boost cooperation.

Xi proposed that Kazakhstan and other relevant Central Asian countries, including Russia, increase communication and promote regional economic integration in terms of both policy and law. He proposed concretely that China and Central Asian countries compare notes on their respective economic development strategy and work together to formulate plans and measures for regional cooperation. Xi also said that they should work to improve traffic connectivity to open the strategic regional thoroughfare from the Pacific Ocean to the Baltic Sea, and set-up a network of transportation that connects Eastern, Western and Southern Asia. Xi also proposed trade be done with local-currency settlement and not via the US dollar to improve their immunity to financial risks from US future financial warfare, the kind of financial warfare the US Treasury initiated around that time against Iran oil payments and in March 2014 against Russia.

At that time Russia was focused on the war in Syria, on hosting the showcase Sochi Winter Olympics and had not yet clearly formulated its own Eurasian Economic Union in detail. The US coup d’etat in Ukraine that began with Maidan Square protests in November 2014 and escalated into a de facto war situation on the part of NATO against Russia since then, dramatically concentrated Russian energies on developing alternative strategies and firm partners and allies to withstand what were clear threats to Russia’s very existence as a sovereign nation. At the same time China was being confronted by US encirclement in the East China Sea and across Asia known as Washington’s military “Asia Pivot,” aka China Pivot strategy, of containing China’s future economic and political emergence. Ironically, those very US escalations of military pressure brought the two giants of Eurasia—China and Russia—closer together than ever in history.

*New Silk Road begins*

Those events, which no one could have clearly foreseen in 2010, catalyzed the most dramatic series of changes in world geopolitics since May, 1945. Only this time, as the American Century is sinking in debt and economic depression, Eurasia is rapidly emerging as the most dynamic and far the largest and richest region in the world in terms of resources and especially human resources.

This fact was underscored by the recent visit of China president Xi to three key member countries of the Eurasian Economic Union. A day before Xi was to be one of the honor guests at the May 9 Victory Day celebrations, he had closed door talks with Vladimir Putin. After those talks Putin announced that the two countries had signed a decree on cooperation in connecting the development of the Eurasian Economic Union with the Silk Road Economic Belt project. “The integration of the Eurasian Economic Union and Silk Road projects means reaching a new level of partnership and actually implies a common economic space on the continent,” Putin said.

China agreed to also invest $5.8 billion in the construction of the Moscow-Kazan High Speed Railway, a major boost at a critical time for a project that will be extended to China through Kazakhstan, a part of the route of the new Silk Road project. The total cost of the Moscow-Kazan high speed railroad project is $21.4 billion.

Wasting no time, on May 13, China Railway Group announced it had won a $390 million contract from Russia to build the Moscow-Kazan high-speed railway which is to be further extended to China as part of the new Silk Road project. A consortium led by China Railway with two Russian companies will jointly survey and conduct regional development planning and design for the Moscow–Kazan segment of the Moscow–Kazan–Yekaterinburg high-speed railway line in 2015-2016 according to a report from RT in Moscow.

_Chinese participation in the planned Moscow-Kazan. Ekaterinburg High-Speed Rail segment will integrate Russia into the New Silk Road Economic Belt_

The day before, on May 7, China’s Xi was in Astana meeting with Kazakhstan President Nazarbayev to concretize Kazak participation in the New Silk Road. China, Kazakhstan and Russia are all founding members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization as well. Construction on the China-Kazakh part of the New Silk Road high-speed rail line is already underway from China’s side.

The visits of Xi to Kazakhstan and Russia were followed with a three day visit of Xi to Belarus on May 10. Belarus is geographically a critical potential link in a more peaceful world, between the countries of the European Union and the Eurasian countries within the developing New Silk Road project. After their meetings Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko announced he too had agreed to make Belarus a platform for the development of the New Silk Road Economic Belt. Lukashenko revealed that 20 years before as a member of the Parliament of the new independent Belarus as the Soviet Union dissolved he made a visit to China: “I adopted China’s step-by-step economic reform style in Belarus…” That puts the three key countries of the new Eurasian Economic Union—Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus—fully in the New Silk Road Economic Belt project.

*Opening Eurasia to real development*

One intriguing and potentially very strategic side benefit of the vast Silk Road Eurasian Economic Union integration that has just been decided will be the dramatic change in the development possibilities of some of the world’s richest undeveloped raw materials, including of gold. Russia and Central Asian states hold perhaps the world’s largest reserves of every imaginable metal and minerals.

Both China and Russia have been building their central bank gold reserves as rapidly as possible. Economic exploitation of gold reserves in Central Asia could become a significant support for that effort.

During Soviet times gold was part of Soviet National Bank reserves but considered a “capitalist relic.” After 1991, in the chaotic collapse of the Soviet Union, Western intelligence agencies in cooperation with Italian organized crime and criminal former Soviet senior bureaucrats organized the theft of the entire gold reserves, more than 2,000 tons of bullion, from the Soviet Gosbank vaults, a crime announced by bank chairman Geraschenko, himself reportedly a secret participant in the theft, to an astonished Russian parliament.

Since Putin became president in 1999, the Russian central bank has been steadily restocking its central bank gold. Today according to official IMF statistics, Russia’s Central Bank has managed to accumulate 1238 Tons of gold reserves. In April alone Russia bought 30 tons.

The existence of central bank gold reserves has been shrouded in mystery for the country allegedly the world’s largest gold reserve holder, the US Federal Reserve Bank. In 2011 IMF Director General Dominique Strauss-Kahn demanded an independent physical audit of Federal Reserve gold. The Federal Reserve gold has never been audited. Strauss-Kahn reportedly had information that the 8000 tons of gold reported to be held by the US was gone.

The IMF head became concerned reportedly after the United States began “stalling” its pledged delivery to the IMF of 191.3 tons of gold agreed to under the Second Amendment of the Articles of Agreement to fund what are called Special Drawing Rights (SDRs). Some days later a bizarre hotel sex scandal forced the abrupt resignation of Strauss-Kahn and an end to IMF calls for a gold audit.

Whatever the true state of US Fed gold reserves, it’s clear that both Russia and China are stocking gold bullion to back their currencies as they carefully create a new architecture to replace the US dollar system.

Despite US financial warfare efforts, Russia state finances are also remarkably healthy in comparison with those in the West. In the USA government debt officially is well over $17 trillion or 105% of GDP. Greek debt is 177% of GDP. The Eurozone countries average debt to GDP is 91% and Germany 74%.

In Russia state debt is about 18% of GDP. China’s debt is around 43% according to latest IMF data.

Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia and China have all substantially increased their official gold reserves since the first quarter of 2000. Now it emerges that gold is intended to be a vital element in the OBOR—One Bridge, One Road—Silk Road project.

At a Dubai commodities conference in April this year, Albert Cheng, Managing Director of the World Gold Council, revealed that China is consciously looking to integrate its search for gold with the Silk Road economic project over the next ten years. He cited a statement from Xu Luode, President of Shanghai Gold Exchange and a National People’s Congress (NPC) delegate who proposed to integrate gold market development into the strategic development plan of Silk Road Economic Belt at the March, 2015 meeting of the Chinese Central Committee. He suggested a mechanism to involve major gold producers and users along the new rail routes through Kazakhstan and Russia. He also proposed that the Chinese government’s development of those resources make the Shanghai Gold Exchange the trading hub, and be integrated into the Silk Road Economic Belt plan.

The opening of the new network of Eurasian high-speed rail infrastructure will open entire new areas of mineral riches to development. On May 11, 2015, China’s largest gold mining company, China National Gold Group Corporation (CNGGC), signed an agreement with Russian gold miner Polyus Gold to deepen ties in gold exploration. Announcing the deal, Song Xin, general manager of CNGGC and President of the China Gold association, said, “China’s Belt and Road Initiative brings unprecedented opportunities for the gold industry.” Song Yuqin, Deputy General Manager of the Shanghai Gold Exchange stated, “The gold trade is expected to become a significant component of transactions by ‘Belt and Road’ countries.”

The Eurasian region in fact holds every conceivable mineral and rare earth metal known in vast quantities. That will now become economically feasible to develop with presence of high-speed freight rail infrastructure.

The Great Silk Road Economic Belt is clearly going to happen and fast. The emerging reality of the network of New Silk high-speed rail infrastructure, a wide-spanning network of road and rail links between all Asian and Central Asian nations, will be the heart of a new economic world. It is a well-known phenomenon of economics that as transportation infrastructure is developed there is a stronger GDP growth in each connected nation, a multiplier effect as entire new markets grow up. Clearly Eurasia is the place to be as Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping have demonstrated.
First appeared: China’s New Roads to Russia | New Eastern Outlook

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> The Chinese don’t dither around when they’ve reached a consensus.



Eh, difference between talkers and doers?



Raphael said:


> That same year China began what then was the first leg of three planned rail legs. The domestic Chinese part of one route starts in Kunming in Yunnan Province and runs south to Singapore. A second route starts in Urumqi, capital of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, and connect Central Asian countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan with Germany. A third line will connect the city of Heilongjiang in northern China with Eastern and Southern European countries via Russia. At that time China’s aim was to create a pan-Asian rail network to connect 28 countries with 81,000 kilometers of railways.



This explains why the US and its allies are on a militarist tantrum recently. When there is no way to compete China in development across the board, send it surveillance ships and planes and add a little extra nitro in Mr. Abe's ultranationalist ego. There you go. LOL.


----------



## cirr

TaiShang said:


> Eh, difference between talkers and doers?
> 
> 
> 
> This explains why the US and its allies are on a militarist tantrum recently. When there is no way to compete China in development across the board, send it surveillance ships and planes and add a little extra nitro in Mr. Abe's pumped up ego. There you go. LOL.



China is for construction while a certain power is for destruction。

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## Raphael

TaiShang said:


> This explains why the US and its allies are on a militarist tantrum recently. When there is no way to compete China in development across the board, send it surveillance ships and planes and add a little extra nitro in Mr. Abe's pumped up ego. There you go. LOL.



Yep. There's a serious deficit in the quality of strategic thinking between the adversaries.

China strategy is derived from Weiqi. Everything China does has a strategic purpose. Maritime Silk Road, AIIB, island reclamation - these all translate into tangible gains for China, increase China's influence, bind trade partners close to China, and create new facts on the grounds. Every turn, China places a new stone on the board.

The Americans think they are playing chess. In chess, it's important to move your pieces into position for checkmate. So superficially, the USA's military posturing, escalations and constant shuffling around of military assets would appear to be strategically sound. The problem is however is that the objective of chess is to deliver checkmate, but the US is neither willing nor capable of delivering checkmate. And if they can't deliver checkmate, they will eventually have to contend with the costs of overextending themselves.

What they want is to intimidate China through their bluffs (they call it 'shock and awe') into stopping island reclamation, and more generally, to submit to US hegemony in Asia. Pretend they have the stomach for war, and get China to fold even when China has a strong hand. That is actually a poker strategy, and they are combining poker strategy with chess tactics, which makes for an incoherent approach.

All China has to do is ignore the bluffs, and keep putting more stones on the board, and if the US can't respond, they lose.

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> Yep. There's a serious deficit in the quality of strategic thinking between the adversaries.
> 
> China strategy is derived from Weiqi. Everything China does has a strategic purpose. Maritime Silk Road, AIIB, island reclamation - these all translate into tangible gains for China, increase China's influence, bind trade partners close to China, and create new facts on the grounds. Every turn, China places a new stone on the board.
> 
> The Americans think they are playing chess. In chess, it's important to move your pieces into position for checkmate. So superficially, the USA's military posturing, escalations and constant shuffling around of military assets would appear to be strategically sound. The problem is however is that the objective of chess is to deliver checkmate, but the US is neither willing nor capable of delivering checkmate. And if they can't deliver checkmate, then there's the added cost of overextending themselves.
> 
> What they want to intimidate China through their bluffs (they call it 'shock and awe') into stopping island reclamation, and more generally, to submit to US hegemony in Asia. That is actually a poker strategy, and they combining poker strategy with chess tactics, which makes for an incoherent approach.
> 
> All China has to do is ignore the bluffs, and keep putting more stone on the board, and if the US can't respond, they lose.



Very well said.

What is important for China at this stage is capacity building. Every move you mentioned above seems to be directed at increasing China's capabilities, which is, by default, not directly aggressive to any outside actors. So long as the US moves (bluffs, high-level speeches, "indispensable nation," "we write the rules" rhetoric, empty new alliances that pop up every day with no real content and implications) fail to prevent China from capacity building, then, there is nothing that really bothers China.

As another member (@Genesis , I guess) said on another thread, the US can pump its face into China's window, at the end of the day, all it can do is watching. Why should China care if the US watches 12 miles off instead of 12.000 miles off? I guess the US has capability to monitor even without having to coming so close.

China is literally putting pieces across the board, from Central Asia to Latin America and Africa. I wonder how the US is planning to confront China in the midst of so many moves. China's proactive but non-aggressive moves leave the US incapacitated because without military , their diplomacy appears utterly clueless.

I am, nonetheless, glad that they belittle China and still fail to see the long term importance of China's strategic moves, the Belt and Road Project and the accompanying international cooperation scheme being one of them.

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## Shotgunner51

Raphael said:


> China strategy is derived from Weiqi. Everything China does has a strategic purpose. Maritime Silk Road, AIIB, island reclamation - these all translate into tangible gains for China, increase China's influence, bind trade partners close to China, and create new facts on the grounds. Every turn, China places a new stone on the board.



Apparently the grand chessboard has always been Weiqi, or GO, instead of Chess, from the very beginning. Many nice pieces in May, among those I like the currency swap with Chile, 1st RMB clearing house in SA, RFQII, SDR with IMF, Shanghai gold exchange and Sino-Russia joint gold reserve.

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## Jlaw

cirr said:


> China is for construction while a certain power is for destruction。


US and China should cooperate more. US destroy, than China can build the destroyed cities. Win-win.

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> US and China should cooperate more. US destroy, than China can build the destroyed cities. Win-win.



Unfortunately, destroying is always much quicker than building up. Look how ISIS destroys a cultural heritage that took thousands of years to build. 

It is better China and Russia stop the US from destroying others' livelihood right from the bud.


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## BHAN85

Here is Soros full speech.
youtube.
/watch?v=n2I647MqvvU

And here is Soros speech first consequences:
*China currency is ‘no longer undervalued’, says IMF*


I think that Soros should be carefully listened by everybody. He has more power in US Gov that so many people thinks, he openly recognised that he cooperated in Ukraine "revolution". Who without a great power in US gov could have done that? (risking war US/Russia).

He spoke before anyone in 2014 about down oil prices to punish Russia, before it happened .

anyone know when AIIB will give its first loan?.


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## Raphael

​Russia will take part in multinational navy drills in disputed South China Sea — RT News

Russia will take part in naval military exercises together with its Asia Pacific allies, according to Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov.

Speaking on Saturday in Singapore, Antonov announced Russia's planned participation in the May 2016 drills which have a focus on counter-terrorism and naval security.

*Antonov also said he was concerned about stability in the region, naming the US as the main destabilizing factor. He said that Washington's policies have been aimed against Russia and China: "We are concerned by US policies in the region, especially since every day it becomes increasingly focused on a systemic containment of Russia and China." *

*"Despite our concerns about the US global missile defense architecture, they continue a policy of disrupting strategic stability, adding a regional segment of an anti-missile 'shield' in the Asia-Pacific," he added. *

* He also blamed the US for interfering with the affairs of other countries and said Russia is worried by the trend: “An epidemic of 'color revolutions' swept the Middle East and, like a hurricane, wiped out several states in the region. This disease went across several European countries, where events are freely controlled from the outside.”*

The May 2016 exercises will take place in the South China Sea, where Japan and several other Asian countries, along with the US, have been pressuring China to stop the construction of artificial islands in disputed waters. Beijing claims most of the sea's area as its own, saying it is historically Chinese. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei also say parts of the area belong to them.

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## UKBengali

China + Russia need to stand up to the US for world peace.

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## XiangLong

Ahhh some tit-for-tat teases... but who's going to be the one that will dish out the first punch?


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## Bussard Ramjet

China should not get into Russian trap, in which it is trying to isolate China from the rest. 

As for color revolutions, they were largely because of serious grievances of people, and civil conflicts. The problem was there, what the west did was to flame them by their various institutions. 

Also, this is the importance of soft power. So that you can not only hold your own population, you can extend the influence in other countries as well.


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## pher

our policy in SCS should be to totally destroy any US pawns who dare to charge in the first place (most likely vietnam) together with japan, after that, the whole area will enjoy long term peace.

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## GR!FF!N

Raphael said:


> Russia will take part in naval military exercises together with its Asia Pacific allies



who are they???



pher said:


> our policy in SCS should be to totally destroy any US pawns who dare to charge in the first place (most likely vietnam) together with japan, after that, the whole area will enjoy long term peace.



in short,WW 3..

you do know that Japan Enjoys USA's protection.in any potential danger,USN will be in between PLAN and JMSDF.

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## Tea addict

pher said:


> our policy in SCS should be to totally destroy any US pawns who dare to charge in the first place (most likely vietnam) together with japan, after that, the whole area will enjoy long term peace.


lol...it will bring US in the conflict...after that the region will enjoy peace for long time . you can guess who will loose

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## pher

GR!FF!N said:


> who are they???
> 
> 
> 
> in short,WW 3..
> 
> you do know that Japan Enjoys USA's protection.in any potential danger,USN will be in between PLAN and JMSDF.


you indians so naive to believe eveything US told you. we don't or we don't care.



Tea addict said:


> lol...it will bring US in the conflict...after that the region will enjoy peace for long time . you can guess who will loose


don't expect everyone would whorship US as a god like you indians.

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## Tea addict

pher said:


> you indians so naive to believe eveything US told you. we don't or we don't care.


enlighten us how are you going to face USN along with JMSDF

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## GR!FF!N

pher said:


> you indians so naive to believe eveything US told you. we don't or we don't care.



I feel sorry for you guys then...

meanwhile in SCS...

U.S. Navy P-8A Poseidon flies over new islands in South China Sea

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## pher

Tea addict said:


> enlighten us how are you going to face USN along with JMSDF


wow, we had extensive experience of what US capable of in korea war, as for japan, no need to discuss. we will nuke them if neccessary.

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## GR!FF!N

pher said:


> don't expect everyone would whorship US as a god like you indians.



meanwhile,when time came,Indians stood their ground while China got b!tched..learn little bit of history my friend.



pher said:


> wow, we had extensive experience of what US capable of in korea war, as for japan, no need to discuss. we will nuke them if neccessary.



aahh..NBC Conflict at last.


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## Tea addict

pher said:


> wow, we had extensive experience of what US capable of in korea war, as for japan, no need to discuss. we will nuke them if neccessary.


LOL....americans pushed back the north korean forces to china- korea border in just 1 week...and you needed to send 2 million troops just to fight some 30 thousand yanks ..lol..and still ended in stalement....NUKE JAPAN?..good that your communist govt doesnt think that way

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## pher

i


GR!FF!N said:


> I feel sorry for you guys then...
> 
> meanwhile in SCS...
> 
> U.S. Navy P-8A Poseidon flies over new islands in South China Sea


is this kind of news make you indians high? look at how US protest us when we harass its P-8A like this, I bet you indians will apoloy to US for doing such act even happening in your dream.



GR!FF!N said:


> meanwhile,when time came,Indians stood their ground while China got b!tched..learn little bit of history my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> aahh..NBC Conflict at last.


do you really believe we care the brag of people from a country who was colonized by over 1000 years,keep dreaming.



Tea addict said:


> LOL....americans pushed back the north korean forces to china- korea border in just 1 week...and you needed to send 2 million troops just to fight some 30 thousand yanks ..lol..and still ended in stalement....NUKE JAPAN?..good that your communist govt doesnt think that way


even your US daddy would feel shame for its worshipees braging like that. go ask your US master how they feel after korea war.

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## GR!FF!N

pher said:


> is this kind of news make you indians high? look at how US protest us when we harass its P-8A like this, I bet you indians will apoloy to US for doing such act even happening in your dream.



meanwhile in India...

US-hired aircraft flouts airspace, forced to land - The Times of India



you n00bs never going to understand one thing,China is simply issuing "Warnings" and becoming Joke..



pher said:


> do you really believe we care the brag of people from a country who was colonized by over 1000 years,keep dreaming.



meanwhile,China is land of "Free People".. 

collect your 2 cents you've earned for this post..

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## Tea addict

pher said:


> go back to your slum dreaming. you indians worth zero for my argument. I will speak directly to your white master.


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## pher

Tea addict said:


>


exactly, you people is not even worth 50 cents.


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## Tea addict

pher said:


> exactly, you people is not even worth 50 cents.


lol..you still havent answered me about your claim that you can beat USN and JMSDF together


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## pher

Tea addict said:


> lol..you still havent answered me about your claim that you can beat USN and JMSDF together


sorry, I couldn't earn my 50 cents by talking with an indian, no interests at all.


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## Tea addict

pher said:


> sorry, I couldn't earn my 50 cents by talking with an indian, no interests at all.


as if anyone gives a flying fuch what chinese have to say

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## xudoai

pher said:


> our policy in SCS should be to totally destroy any US pawns who dare to charge in the first place (most likely vietnam) together with japan, after that, the whole area will enjoy long term peace.



you can repeat here what Mao said to you : "USA imperialist is paper tiger"


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## Bussard Ramjet

pher said:


> wow, we had extensive experience of what US capable of in korea war, as for japan, no need to discuss. we will nuke them if neccessary.




YOU, Yes YOU, are a blood thirsty, homicidal maniac.


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## 21stCentury

pher said:


> our policy in SCS should be to totally destroy any US pawns who dare to charge in the first place (most likely vietnam) together with japan, after that, the whole area will enjoy long term peace.



Vietnam and Philippines will likely spare head the attack as the U.S. Canonfodder. These two will be wiped out quick right at the start lol


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## Raphael

Bussard Ramjet said:


> China should not get into Russian trap, in which it is trying to isolate China from the rest.
> 
> As for color revolutions, they were largely because of serious grievances of people, and civil conflicts. The problem was there, what the west did was to flame them by their various institutions.
> 
> Also, this is the importance of soft power. So that you can not only hold your own population, you can extend the influence in other countries as well.



I don't really understand this advice. China should abandon Russia to ally with VN and PH? The cost of aligning with them compromises our territorial integrity and comes with no benefit. They have nothing we want, and are about as useful as Uganda.


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## Bussard Ramjet

Raphael said:


> I don't really understand this advice. China should abandon Russia to ally with VN and PH? The cost of aligning with them compromises our territorial integrity and comes with no benefit. They have nothing we want, and are about as useful as Uganda.



No. What I am saying is that it is NOT in China's interests to have a Cold War, and the front for that war is in its backyard. 

America has grown so prominent, because for the last 1 century it has been the undisputed regional hegemon, and all the front lines have been very far off from American territory. Also, Choosing Russia over other Europe will be foolish. 

Till the time comes when China can create a quid pro quo in American backyard, don't attempt anything foolish. You DON'T want a front line in your backyard. 

The next 10 years will be crucial precisely because America will try to contain, and China must play it smart. China must keep its head down and bid its time. The time has not yet come. The time will be when China's military is undisputed king in its regional environment, both in quantity and quality, and China is technologically as advanced as America.

If there ever comes a time when you have to choose between Russia and Europe, choose Europe or be neutral. You don't want a cold war, and remain on a loosing side. Russia will lose a cold war. It is as simple as that. It has got no one surrounding it, that actually likes it. Not even Belarus. Belarus just doesn't have any other options.


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## Raphael

Bussard Ramjet said:


> No. What I am saying is that it is NOT in China's interests to have a Cold War, and the front for that war is in its backyard.
> 
> America has grown so prominent, because for the last 1 century it has been the undisputed regional hegemon, and all the front lines have been very far off from American territory. Also, Choosing Russia over other Europe will be foolish.
> 
> Till the time comes when China can create a quid pro quo in American backyard, don't attempt anything foolish. You DON'T want a front line in your backyard.
> 
> The next 10 years will be crucial precisely because America will try to contain, and China must play it smart. China must keep its head down and bid its time. The time has not yet come. The time will be when China's military is undisputed king in its regional environment, both in quantity and quality, and China is technologically as advanced as America.
> 
> If there ever comes a time when you have to choose between Russia and Europe, choose Europe or be neutral. You don't want a cold war, and remain on a loosing side. Russia will lose a cold war. It is as simple as that. It has got no one surrounding it, that actually likes it. Not even Belarus. Belarus just doesn't have any other options.



Interesting comment. I'm currently terribly busy, but will get back to it.


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## Kyle Sun

Tea addict said:


> lol..you still havent answered me about your claim that you can beat USN and JMSDF together


if we are going to have andfull scale war with usa or JMSDF,we go perish together.
I mean the whole.world ,including india.


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## VALKRYIE

> Anger in China over Russian sale of Klub missiles to Vietnam
> 
> Staff Reporter 2015-06-03 17:22 (GMT+8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An image of what is believed to be the 3M-54 Klub missile being transported in Vietnam, taken from the Vietnamese-language military affairs Facebook Page Master Commander. (Internet photo)
> 
> US-based military news site Strategy Page published an article on May 31 entitled "Submarines: China Objects To Getting Klubbed," stating that China has lodged complaints with Russia, Vietnam and the US after Moscow agreed to sell 50 submarine launched 3M54 Klub missiles to Hanoi, according to the website of China's Global Times.
> 
> The Strategy Page report stated that although Russia and Vietnam have been trying to keep the deal on the down low, 28 of the Klub missiles have already been delivered to Vietnam. China is particularly concerned because the Klub missile can also be used to strike ground targets. The article stated that the submarines of India, Algeria and Vietnam are currently using the missiles and they are said to be highly effective, despite previous problems with the missile encountered on failed Indian test fires in 2007.
> 
> The Klub missile weighs 2 tonnes, with a warhead of 200 kilograms, and is fired from a 533 mm torpedo tube on submarines, according to the report. The anti-ship version of the missile has a range of 300 km and can reach a speed of up to 3000 km per hour in the final minute of its trajectory, the report said. With a 400 kg warhead, the land attack version of the missile does not have a high terminal stage speed, the report said.
> 
> The missile speeds up in the last 15 minutes of its approach, which it covers in just 20 seconds, before which it travels at an altitude of 30 m, making it difficult to detect and to counter, the report said.
> 
> The Klub resembles the 3M80 and P700 missiles which were commissioned at the end of the Cold War, the report said. However, Russian missiles have little experience in combat and are unreliable, according to the report, although this has improved with civilian contractors in recent years.
> 
> China currently has no effective defense against the Klub missile, which is likely why they are making such an issue out of the deal, the report said.
> 
> Russia also agreed to sell six Kilo-class submarines to Vietnam in 2009, which provoked ire from Beijing as well, the report said.



Anger in China over Russian sale of Klub missiles to Vietnam｜WantChinaTimes.com

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## Genesis

VALKRYIE said:


> Anger in China over Russian sale of Klub missiles to Vietnam｜WantChinaTimes.com


Scrapping the bottom of the barrel now are we. lol

Want China Times, a Taiwanese publication. Then, strategy page, this is their title for their site.

Military News Humor Photos - StrategyPage

Military news and humor photos.


There's some good stuff on epoch times you haven't used yet, and Gordon Chang is under utilized by you which is a huge disappointment.


We "sell" to middle east nations, and America is fine with it. We got the same strategy, you hurt us, we'll pay you back 100 fold. You got 28 or more Klubs, we got thousands of missiles that can target anywhere.


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## William Hung

An article from a Russian think tank:

*Is there a role for Russia to play in the South China Sea?*

Is there a role for Russia to play in the South China Sea? | Russia Direct



> *Moscow’s global ambitions will inevitably lead it to the South China Sea, but that could force Russia to choose between partners such as China and Vietnam.*
> 
> It is now clear that China’s struggle to prevent the internationalization of the South China Sea dispute has been a complete and utter failure. Non-claimant states such as India and Japan, not to mention the U.S., all have their eyes on (and sometimes their hands in) the time bomb that this maritime region may prove to be.
> 
> In the meantime, Russia has once again proclaimed its own Asia-Pacific pivot as a way of compensating for the damage done to its relations with the West by the crisis in Ukraine. But why is there no Russian finger in the South China Sea pie?
> 
> One way or another,Moscow is unlikely to remain completely untouched by the territorial disputes over the Spratly and Paracel islands. After all, 2015 has seen an unprecedented surge in Russia’s relations with China. With many in the West attempting to present Russia as isolated, the Kremlin sees its ties with Beijing as a manifestation of quite the contrary. In a similar fashion, China may want Moscow to help change its image of a besieged fortress.
> 
> Russia’s possible involvement in the South China Sea dispute would have been a no-brainer if another vocal claimant - Vietnam - weren’t also the country’s closest partner in Southeast Asia. Vietnam is one of the largest buyers of Russian military equipment, hosts several large investment projects and is entering a free trade area with the Moscow-led Eurasian Economic Union.
> 
> As for this moment, Russia’s policy towards the territorial disputes could be described as non-existent.
> ...
> The question, then, is: What are the boundaries for Russia’s policy in the South China Sea? How far can it go and where it should go?
> 
> It seems that for Russia, as for the U.S., the focus should not be on matters of sovereignty, but rather, on matters of conduct. A world order Moscow could benefit from is one where, if there is a dispute of any sorts, the first thing the parties involved should do is to stop whatever they are doing at a point when no shots are fired and abstain from any assertive action.
> 
> This is precisely what is wrong with Ukraine and precisely what is wrong with the South China Sea. None of the parties is completely satisfied with the status quo and are continuously trying to change it, which only makes things worse and less predictable.
> 
> Perhaps this is the route for Russia to follow. Similar to Washington, Moscow may become the advocate for peaceful conduct, maintaining the status quo and, yes, that means telling China off. But unlike the U.S., Russia is not seen as a threat in Beijing, thus its motives will not be perceived as ulterior. If China can be convinced that putting the reclamation project on pause and engaging in meaningful conversation is the way to go, Moscow may well be taken as a significant contributor to Southeast Asian stability.Now wouldn’t that be a pivot to remember?



Please click on the link to read the full version.

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## TaiShang

*China Inks Silk Road Deals With Brazil, Russia and India*
06/05/2015

Chinese construction companies are expected soon to begin surveys and feasibility studies on a 5,300-km-long trans-oceanic railway project that will connect Brazil with Peru. The move, which was made possible during recent meetings when Brazilian leaders visited Chinese Premier Li Keqiang in May, is the latest example of China's efforts to extend its Silk Road program to Latin America.

"We invite Chinese companies to participate in this great infrastructure project," Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff said in a statement. 

Also in late May, China started building a pipeline to receive Russian gas. This follows the signing of a $400-billion gas deal last year to build the Power of Siberia pipeline. Russia will invest $55 billion for the Russian section, including bringing new gas fields on stream.

Russian energy giant Gazprom said the new effort marked "the start of the execution stage from preparation phase". The company said that its pipeline company had signed an agreement with China's CNPC's pipeline project team for constructing the Russia-China eastern gas pipeline starting from Heihe on the border and running to Changling in Jilin province.

In recent weeks, Chinese President Xi Jinping also has spent considerable time on the road visiting Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus to take forward his Silk Road agenda. Leaders of these countries expressed enthusiasm for the program but no specific infrastructure project other than the Russian pipeline was finalized.

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## Tresbon

By Shankkar Aiyar Published: 07th June 2015 


There is nothing official about it. Not yet.

On May 7, two days before the Victory Day Celebrations in Russia, two warships of the People’s Liberation Army Navy—Linyi and Weifang—crossed into the Black Sea via the Bosphorous triggering raised eyebrows.

On the face of it, the Jiangkai II class (054A) guided missile frigates were part of the Chinese contingent attending the celebrations. The two warships—berthed at Novorossiysk—were also scheduled to take part in the first Sino-Russian joint exercise in the Mediterranean. The coincidence of the showcasing of the frigates hasn’t escaped informed comment. If the buzz is to be believed, *China wants to sell frigates to Russia—low cost options for Russia, to replace older vessels and continue with its defence programme.*

It is early days for outcomes. This being Russia and China, opacity rules —there may or may not be any public confirmation. There is no disputing the audacity of the aspiration. There is no denying the rise of Made in China arms either. *Earlier this year, China emerged as the third largest arms exporter of the world*, dislodging Germany. Research by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute reveals that arms exports from China have shot up 143 per cent in five years. 

Since 2010, China has exported arms to 35 countries, including Pakistan, Iran, Venezuela, Tanzania, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, Thailand and most recently a missile defence system to Turkey. The value of the deals isn’t very high, not yet. What is remarkable is the range of arms—air defence systems, drones, artillery, missiles and ships—that China exports.

There is a method in its market expansion. In South Asia—Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Myanmar—the idea is supremacy and containment of India. In Latin America, it is about expanding trade and bagging mega projects. In Africa, where it exports to 18 countries, it is about access—commodities, labour and markets.

Interestingly, China’s transition—the largest importer between 2005 and 2009 to the marquee of top exporters—is rather recent. Although indigenisation was always on the agenda —and Tiananmen and Taiwan Straits crises underlined the imperative—the real big push came in 2006 when the Communist Party of China decided to integrate civilian and military capabilities. The focus was to acquire—and the operative definition is access and acquire—technology to innovate. The aim was to bring down import costs, create scale and to raise resources through exports to fund research and defence spending.

Compare this with the Indian experience. India too had recognised the need to integrate civilian capabilities and the need to make in India as early as in 2003. The big elephant was the absent private sector. The thesis then was that private sector couldn’t be trusted although India was importing from private foreign companies. In 2004, the Vajpayee regime appointed a committee under Vijay Kelkar to draw a blueprint for renaissance.

The Kelkar Committee submitted its first report in April 2005 to the new UPA regime. Believe it or not, the report was never made public—even the Chairman of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence was denied access. The Kelkar Committee Report is yet a secret document!

The report—which drew out a new architecture for defence production —recommended a swathe of changes, including autonomy and corporatisation of Ordnance Factories, listing of defence PSUs to raise resources, opening up to private sector and creation of a partnership model with private companies.

The recommendations itself were parcelled into do, discuss, debate and committee zones. Typically convenient cherry-picking prevailed. Result: Ordnance Factories are yet a mess, acquisitions are tardy and the offsets regime is enveloped in a dense fog. Yes, FDI cap has been relaxed to 49 per cent but with caveats and issues of technology transfer persist. *In 2015, India is the largest importer *and ranked 22 among arms exporters.

The virtue of decision and action is best reflected in the spend-trend. SIPRI’s trend indicator value shows that China’s imports have been driven down significantly. Studies (courtesy Dr Sam Perlo-Freeman/SIPRI) show that between 2010 and 2014, the total volume of China’s imports was 42 per cent lower than in 2005-2009. The savings were deployed on domestic arms procurement and R&D.

In India, in stark contrast, between 2005 and 2015, allocations under the capital account in defence budget have risen from Rs 34,375 crore to Rs 94,588 crore. Between 2005 and 2014, the country imported armoured vehicles, engines, sensors, naval weapons, missiles and air defence systems besides aircraft and ships. Many of these items India can and should be making at home—creating jobs and propelling growth.

India lost a decade. The difference is really in the evolution of strategic thinking—in China and in India. China aligned national security and economic growth. India must do so too! 

Make In China: Now, Warships for Russia? -The New Indian Express


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## IsaacNewton

Good call by Russia, 054a is a mighty fine warship.
-Cheap, 250-300m to produce.
-Deadly firepower with 32 VLS. 
-Versatile, capable of anti surface, anti air, and anti submarine warfare. 
-Capable of blue water operation, as proven by its numerous port calls, Gulf of Aden operations, ect. 
-No glaring weakness when compared with a western warship of same weight. Sensors, electronics, engine, speed, ect all seem to at least meet modern standard. 

In fact, I think PLAN should buy more of these warship (currently at 24?) rather than wasting money on a type 054b.


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## Sulman Badshah

Type 054A is a decent frigate with good punch

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## cirr

IsaacNewton said:


> Good call by Russia, 054a is a mighty fine warship.
> -Cheap, 250-300m to produce.
> -Deadly firepower with 32 VLS.
> -Versatile, capable of anti surface, anti air, and anti submarine warfare.
> -Capable of blue water operation, as proven by its numerous port calls, Gulf of Aden operations, ect.
> -No glaring weakness when compared with a western warship of same weight. Sensors, electronics, engine, speed, ect all seem to at least meet modern standard.
> 
> In fact, I think PLAN should buy more of these warship (currently at 24?) rather than wasting money on a type 054b.



Rumours have it that the PLAN like the 054A so much that it has placed an order for further 12 ships，thereby causing a delay to the introduction of Type 054B。

PLAN's motto：go for the most suitable but not necessarily the most advanced。

A thinking behind PLA's deeply-rooted pragmatism，a defining characteristic that is widely different from the disposition of a certain neighbour to the south。

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## IsaacNewton

cirr said:


> Rumours have it that the PLAN like the 054A so much that it has placed an order for further 12 ships，thereby causing a delay to the introduction of Type 054B。
> 
> PLAN's motto：go for the most suitable but not necessarily the most advanced。
> 
> A thinking behind PLA's deeply-rooted pragmatism，a defining characteristic that is widely different from the disposition of a certain neighbour to the south。



I believe USN could learn from that. One littoral class warship cost 670m! That is more expensive than 2 054a, and I don't even believe it is a better ship.

I like the simple, cheap, yet efficient and practical type of thinking. Afterall, quantity has a quality of its own.

I believe China was able to sustained many years of high economic growth because of this philosophy. Afterall, as Deng Xiaoping kind of said, it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, what matters is it catches mice. In this case, it doesn't matter if the ship is the most advanced or not, what matters is it meet its function.

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## DJ Crudept

cirr said:


> Rumours have it that the PLAN like the 054A so much that it has placed an order for further 12 ships，thereby causing a delay to the introduction of Type 054B。
> 
> PLAN's motto：go for the most suitable but not necessarily the most advanced。
> 
> A thinking behind PLA's deeply-rooted pragmatism，a defining characteristic that is widely different from the disposition of a certain neighbour to the south。


hi,

Can Type 54A beat Talwar Class Frigates ?


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## hans

It is because different demands of different navy...
USN is the most powerful navy in this planet, no navy can challenge it in open ocean
thus it may need something to bully small countries at their coast, like LCS.
And PLAN is struggling with very high anti-air pressure. 
When PLAN finally gain this capability with 052C/D, 055 class, it turns to next week point of anti-submarine..
054B is said to be electrical propulsion, very suitable for anti-submarine..




IsaacNewton said:


> I believe USN could learn from that. One littoral class warship cost 670m! That is more expensive than 2 054a, and I don't even believe it is a better ship.
> 
> I like the simple, cheap, yet efficient and practical type of thinking. Afterall, quantity has a quality of its own.
> 
> I believe China was able to sustained many years of high economic growth because of this philosophy. Afterall, as Deng Xiaoping kind of said, it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, what matters is it catches mice. In this case, it doesn't matter if the ship is the most advanced or not, what matters is it meet its function.



Answer will be majority yes.
054A is a balanced multi-function warship with advantage in anti-air, anti-ship, etc..
Talwar Class will be better in power/speed.
Though Talwar Class has more weapons on it, unbalance design limit its power.



DJ Crudept said:


> hi,
> 
> Can Type 54A beat Talwar Class Frigates ?

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## DJ Crudept

hans said:


> It is because different demands of different navy...
> USN is the most powerful navy in this planet, no navy can challenge it in open ocean
> thus it may need something to bully small countries at their coast, like LCS.
> And PLAN is struggling with very high anti-air pressure.
> When PLAN finally gain this capability with 052C/D, 055 class, it turns to next week point of anti-submarine..
> 054B is said to be electrical propulsion, very suitable for anti-submarine..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer will be majority yes.
> 054A is a balanced multi-function warship with advantage in anti-air, anti-ship, etc..
> Talwar Class will be better in power/speed.
> Though Talwar Class has more weapons on it, unbalance design limit its power.


I think you r right I think IN needs to Upgrade talwar class ships with VLS on board


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## hans

And also radar and commanding system..
yet it may cost less to build new ships than upgrade old ships 
too much limitation on existing old ships..



DJ Crudept said:


> I think you r right I think IN needs to Upgrade talwar class ships with VLS on board

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## zeronet

DJ Crudept said:


> hi,
> 
> Can Type 54A beat Talwar Class Frigates ?



This is an interesting question that will initiate flame war. So no sure answer. But there is one sure thing that 054A is 100% made in China and costs $250 million per each, while for Telwar the sure thing is that it is made in Russia with some indian inputs, and unit price is $1 billion. With that unit price, Telwar should be compared with China's 055 cruiser instead of 054A.

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## DJ Crudept

zeronet said:


> This is an interesting question that will initiate flame war. So no sure answer. But there is one sure thing that 054A is 100% made in China and costs $250 million per each, while for Telwar the sure thing is that it is made in Russia with some indian inputs, and unit price is $1 billion. With that unit price, Telwar should be compared with China's 055 cruiser instead of 054A.


some Fun Facts for you:

Talwar Class Frigates Cost - $1 Billion Dollars
Shivalik Class Frigates Cost - $370 Million Dollars 

Talwar Class :
Armament: *Anti-air missiles:*
24 × Shtil-1 medium range missiles 8 × Igla-1E (SA-16)

*Anti-ship/Land-attack missiles:*
8 × VLS launched Klub, anti-ship cruise missiles (F40, F43, F44)
_or_
8 × VLS launched BrahMos, anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles(F45, F50, F51)

*Guns:*
1 × 100mm A-190E, naval gun
2 × AK-630 CIWS (F45, F50, F51)
2 × Kashtan CIWS (F40, F43, F44)

*Anti-submarine warfare:*

2 × 2 533mm torpedo tubes
1 × RBU-6000 (RPK-8) rocket launcher
Aircraft carried: 1 Ka-28, Ka-31 or Dhruv helicopter

Shivalik Class :
Armament: _*Anti-air missiles*:_
*32*-cell VLS launched Barak 1 missiles
*24* × Shtil-1 medium range missiles

_*Anti-ship/Land-attack missiles*:_
8 × VLS launched Klub, anti-ship cruise missiles
_or_
8 × VLS launched BrahMos, anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles

_Guns:_
1 × 3.0-inch Otobreda, naval gun
2 × AK-630 CIWS

_Anti-submarine warfare:_
2 × 2 DTA-53-956 torpedo launchers

2 × RBU-6000 (RPK-8) rocket launchers
Aircraft carried: 2 × HAL Dhruv _or_ Sea King Mk. 42B helicopters.

*so Basically overall :*
one Shivalik Class ship = 2 Talwar Class Ships
*but in cost :*
one Talwar Class ship = 2 Shivalik Class Frigate 

i dont know why our Government ordered 9 Talwar when they can produce 25(?) Shivalik indigenously


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## TaiShang

The first train to go through China, Mongolia and Russia. (Photo/China.com.cn)

*Every Wednesday at Beijing Station*, a green train stops at the platform. People may not notice anything different until they see the emblem of China on the train and its board that reads *"Beijing-Ulan Bator-Moscow."*

It takes Train K3 130 hours from Beijing to Moscow. *The total length of the route is 7,826 kilometers - one fifth of the circumference of the equator.* Every Wednesday afternoon, the train welcomes tourists from different places. Many people are excited about taking this trip, always taking photos with the train at the platform before they leave. This scene at Beijing Station has been occurring for 55 years. Yang Jiguang is in charge of the train. At the age of 23, he graduated from college with a degree in Russian and took a job on the train. After 24 years, he is still very excited about his job. " I want to keep working on the train until it’s time for me to retire," he says.




Two foreign tourists have their photos taken with the train. (Photo/China.com.cn)




There is a shower head in the bathroom. (Photo/China.com.cn)




Foreign tourists in the dining carriage. (Photo/China.com.cn)




Waitress in the dining carriage. (Photo/China.com.cn)





Head of the train Yang Jiguang. (Photo/China.com.cn)





The train arrives at Erenhot, a city on the border of China and Mongolia. (Photo/China.com.cn)






The train leaves the Gate of China in Erenhot. (Photo/China.com.cn)

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## xhw1986

*China is building the most extensive global commercial-military empire in history*

In the 18th and 19th centuries, the sun famously never set on the British empire. A commanding navy enforced its will, yet all would have been lost if it were not for ports, roads, and railroads. The infrastructure that the British built everywhere they went embedded and enabled their power like bones and veins in a body.

Great nations have done this since Rome paved 55,000 miles (89,000 km) of roads and aqueducts in Europe. In the 19th and 20th centuries, Russia and the United States established their own imprint, skewering and taming nearby territories with projects like the Trans-Siberian and the Trans-Continental railways.

Now it’s the turn of the Chinese. Much has been made of Beijing’s “resource grab” in Africa and elsewhere, its construction of militarized artificial islands in the South China Sea and, most recently, its new strategy to project naval power broadly in the open seas.

*Below are snapshots of components that are either already in place or on the way...*

*The story starts with a reimagined Silk Road …*






In September 2013, newly anointed Chinese leader Xi Jinping visited Kazakhstan’s capital, Astana. He was in town to seal the Chinese purchase of a $5 billion stake in Kashagan, one of the world’s largest oilfields. On that trip, he unveiled a plan ultimately dubbed “One Belt, One Road”—a land-and-sea version of the fabled East-West Silk Road trading route.

The idea is audacious in scope.






On land, Beijing has in mind a high-speed rail network (map 2). It will start in Kunming, the capital of Yunnan province, and connect with Laos and on into Cambodia, Malaysia, Myanmar, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.

Another overland network of roads, rail and energy pipelines will begin in Xi’an in central China and head west as far as Belgium (see dotted brown line above). As we’ve written previously, Beijing has already initiated an 8,011-mile cargo rail route between the Chinese city of Yiwu and Madrid, Spain. Finally, another 1,125-mile-long bullet train will start in Kashgar and punch south through Pakistan to the Arabian Sea port of Gwadur. The thinking behind this rail-driven plan isn’t new–as we have written previously, Beijing has been piecing it together for awhile.

At sea, a companion 21st-century Maritime Silk Road (see dotted blue line in map 1) would connect the South China Sea, and the Indian and South Pacific oceans. China would begin to protect its own sea lanes as well. On May 26 it disclosed a strategy for expanding its navy into a fleet that not only hugs its own shores, but can wander the open ocean.

China does not need to build all of these thousands of miles of railroads and other facilities. Much of the infrastructure already exists; where it does, the trick is to link it all together.

Everywhere, new public works will be required. And to make its vision materialize, Beijing must be careful to be seen as generously sharing the big engineering and construction projects. Up to now, such contracts have been treated as rare, big profit opportunities for state-owned Chinese industrial units. These include the China Railway Group, whose already-inflated share prices have often gone up each time another piece of the overseas empire has fallen into place. If local infrastructure companies are excluded from the largesse, there will be push-back on almost every continent.

In any case, not all this will necessarily happen. In a recent note to clients, China observer Jonathan Fenby of the research firm Trusted Sources suggested that it may all be too ambitious. China has had a history of announcing and then shelving projects, such as a $3.7 billion railway canceled by Mexico in February amid allegations of local nepotism. Meanwhile, Japan has begun to challenge Chinese plans. It has launched rival bids for billion-dollar high-speed rail and other projects in Indonesia, Thailand and elsewhere, with relatively low-interest loans and sometimes better technology (paywall).

But Beijing seems to recognize its own limits. Rather, the world may help to build at least some of the infrastructure through another Chinese creation—the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, with its 57 founding members, modeled loosely on the World Bank. Projects backed by the bank are meant to be good for the country where they are built. But given China’s outsize influence in the institution, they are certain to include some that fit into its grand scheme of global infrastructure.

*…extends into South America…*






Xi has pledged $250 billion in investment in South America over the next 10 years. The centerpiece is a $10 billion, 3,300-mile, high-speed railroad (dotted red line above) that would start in Acu, near Rio de Janeiro, crossing the Amazon rainforest and the Andes Mountains, and terminate on the Peruvian coast. (NPR’s Tom Ashbrook conducted an excellent hour-long program on the railroad.)

On top of that, there’s an advanced proposal by Chinese billionaire Wang Jing to build a 170-mile-long, $50 billion canal through Nicaragua.

*…and also across Africa*






In January, China agreed with the African Union to help build railroads (map 4), roads, and airports to link all 54 African countries. These plans are already under way, including a $13 billion, 875-mile-long coastal railroad in Nigeria; a $3.8 billion, 500-mile-long railroad connecting the Kenyan cities of Nairobi and Mombasa; a $4 billion, 460-mile railway linking the Ethiopian cities of Addis Ababa and Djibouti; and a $5.6 billion, 850-mile network of rail lines in Chad.

Then there are China’s maritime ambitions. These envision modern ports in the Tanzanian capital, Dar es Salaam; the Mozambican capital, Maputo; Libreville, Gabon; the Ghanaian city of Tema; and the Senegalese capital, Dakar.

All these land and marine projects align with existing Chinese natural-resource investments on the continent. For example, the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) has large oil projects in Chad and Mozambique, and Chinese manufacturers are fast setting up Ethiopian factories that rely on cheap local labor.

*The new Chinese empire is also enveloping its neighbors …*






In addition to its planned high-speed rail network into Malaysia and Singapore (map 2) and Laos (map 5) into southeast Asia (see map 5 for Laotian portion), China plans a canal across the Isthmus of Kra in *Thailand, *adeep-water container port and industrial park in Kuantan, *Malaysia*, and a$511-million expansion of Male airport in the *Maldives*.

*… and nations further afield in the Pacific*






China wants to dominate not only the South and East China seas, but far into the Pacific (map 6). According to the Lowly Institute, transportation comprises by far the largest portion of $2.5 billion in Chinese assistance and commercial credit to South Sea nations. Among the projects are:

*Fiji*: A $158 million hydroelectric plant and several sports complexes, including the 4,000-seat Vodafone stadium in Suva.

*Samoa*: A $100 million hospital in Apia, a $40 million terminal and upgraded runway at Faleolo Airport, and a $140 million wharf at Vaiusu.

*Tonga*: A $12 million government building to be called St. George Palace, and two small Chinese turboprop aircraft for domestic routes aboard Real Tonga airlines. The aircraft deal has been controversial because neither of the planes are certified for use in the West.

*Vanuatu*: Two more turboprops, this time for Air Vanuatu, and $60 million to build a Port Vila campus of the University of the South Pacific and a Parliament House (both loans have been forgiven).

*Pakistan is pivotal to China’s Silk Road …*






Why has China lavished $42 billion in infrastructure projects on Pakistan? The two have always been allies. But China has a particular goal: It wants to contain Uighur separatists who have been fomenting violence in the western province of Xinjiang. Some of these separatists have sanctuaries in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and Beijing has pushed hard for both countries to hand over Uighurs living there.






But sending goods through Pakistan (map 7) also helps China avoid the Malacca Strait (map 8). Much of Beijing’s oil and other natural resources passes through this narrow, 500-mile-long stretch of sea between Malaysia and Indonesia. China worries that, if its relations with Washington become truly hostile, the US could theoretically blockade the strait and starve the country of its lifeblood resources. That is in large part why Beijing is financing a deep Arabian Sea port at Gwadur, and the 1,125-mile-long super-highway, high-speed railway and oil-pipeline route to the Chinese city of Kashgar.

*Scroll down...*

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## xhw1986

*… as is Central Asia …*






Central Asia has been an almost exclusively Russian playground for almost two centuries. It still is when it comes to pure muscle. But in matters of cash, China is fast moving in.

The relationship revolves around oil and natural gas. *Turkmenistan* supplies more than half of China’s imported gas. It gets there through three, 1,150-mile-long pipelines; a fourth pipeline is soon to begin construction. China is the only foreign nation that Turkmenistan allows to drill for gas onshore, in particular from Galkynysh, the second-largest gasfield in the world. China’s $5 billion share of the Kashagan oilfield in *Kazakhstan* is one of its largest oil stakes anywhere. Xi also has signed $15 billion in gas and uranium deals in *Uzbekistan*.

*… and Russia*






Two years ago, Russia announced a pivot towards China. The centerpiece of the shift is two natural-gas pipelines (the larger of the two is the dotted red line in map 9) through which a fifth of China’s gas imports would flow. The deal had some snags, but they reportedly have been worked out, and construction is to begin soon. In addition, China is to build a $242 billion, 4,300-mile high-speed railway from Beijing to Moscow, a two-day trip compared with the current six-day Trans-Mongolian Express.

*China is speeding up how fast goods get to Europe …*

*



*

The Maritime Silk Road (the solid blue line in map 10) will enter Europe through a $260 million Chinese-funded upgrade of the Greek port of Piraeus. From there, rail service will continue into the Balkans. Ships from China will also make port in Lisbon, Portugal, and Duisburg, Germany. To take the network into the heart of Europe, Beijing has agreed to finance a 250-mile bullet train, costing up to $3 billion, from Belgrade to Budapest. Separately, China’s new 8,011-mile cargo railroad from Yiwu to Madrid is taking away business from far more time-consuming truck shipping.

*… and has piled into US real estate*

*



*

For now, the Chinese web of infrastructure does not extend to the US. Instead, what has been built elsewhere is serving as a jumping-off point to the gigantic US market. High-speed trains are only now starting to be planned in the US, and Chinese firms are front-runners to win contracts, including a $1 billion contest for the San Francisco-to-Los Angeles route, expected to be worth $68 billion. China’s CNR Corp. is already providing 284 passenger cars worth $566 million to the Boston subway system.

Another big splash: the United States is China’s favored destination for real estate investment (see chart above). This has included commercial jewels such as New York’s Waldorf Astoria ($1.95 billion to Angbang Insurance) and the Chase Manhattan Plaza ($725 million to Fosun). But the bigger sums have been spent in all-cash deals by wealthy Chinese for residential properties.

*Last but not least, China has polar ambitions*

*



*

Though the closest Chinese territory gets to the Arctic Circle is a thousand miles away, China nonetheless calls itself a “near-Arctic state.” Chinese oil company Cnooc has a majority share in Iceland’s Dreki oil and natural gas field, and Beijing established the Arctic Yellow River Station, a permanent research facility on Norway’s Spitsbergen Island. In Antarctica, China has four research stations, structures that allow nations to stake a claim to the continent. Plans for a fifth station at a place called Inexpressible Island are under way. It is positioning itself to move for the continent’s resources when a 1959 treaty guaranteeing its wilderness status expires in 2048.

Some of the infrastructure China is creating around the world will align with Western economic interests. But to the extent that it does, that will be inadvertent. Some of the most modern transportation infrastructure going up not only in China, but around the developing world, is deliberately _linked_ to China. It is meant to make the global economy a friendly place for Chinese commerce.

That does not make China’s ambitions necessarily menacing or pernicious. But it does make them China-centric. It’s worth remembering that this way of doing economic development is not a Chinese invention. As Michael Pillsbury, author of “The Hundred Year Marathon,” tells Quartz, China’s ambitions are rooted in “a fierce sense of competitiveness which they claim they learned from the America of the 1800s.”

China is building the most extensive global commercial-military empire in history - Quartz

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## TaiShang

Still many miles to go. It is too premature to claim such grand titles as dominant. China is a developing nation nowhere near the desired status.

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## AViet

Thank you very much. I always dream of taking a train from Hanoi - Nanning, Nanning-Beijing and Beijing - Moscow and one day, direct train from Hanoi to Vientiane and then from Vientiane to Singapore.


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## sicsheep

Russia and China intend to hold naval exercises in the South China Sea, according to comments by Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov. The exercises will include Russia’s allies in the Asia-Pacific region, though Antonov did not clarify which countries, beyond China, would participate in the exercises. Russia maintains close relations with several Southeast Asian states, especially with Vietnam, for which Russia is an important provider of arms. China, however, is involved in territorial disputes with four Southeast Asian states — Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, and Brunei — over the sovereignty of various islands and reefs in the South China Sea.

*A major point of agreement between China and Russia, per Antonov’s comments in Singapore, is that the United States is the primary destabilizing factor in the South China Sea*. Antonov suggested that Russia and China were being singled out for criticism by the United States: ”We are concerned by U.S. policies in the region, especially since every day it becomes increasingly focused on a systemic containment of Russia and China.” Antonov’s remarks reflect the broader cooling of bilateral relations between the White House and the Kremlin since Russia’s invasion of Crimea and subsequent backing of anti-government rebels in Ukraine last year.

“Despite our concerns about the U.S. global missile defense architecture, they continue a policy of disrupting strategic stability, adding a regional segment of an anti-missile ‘shield’ in the Asia-Pacific,” he added.

Antonov went further and accused the United States of interfering in the international affairs of other states. “An epidemic of ‘color revolutions’ swept the Middle East and, like a hurricane, wiped out several states in the region. This disease went across several European countries, where events are freely controlled from the outside,” he remarked.

*Russia and China have been steadily increasing their bilateral maritime security cooperation, and the interoperability of their navies*. The development is a result of several trends in China’s naval posture and overall ties with Russia. Over the past two years — since Chinese President Xi Jinping came to power — relations between Russia and China have grown closer and deepened strategically. Additionally, China’s military is in the process of readjusting the country’s historic military focus on land-based assets to its navy. As a result, China’s navy is looking toward global operations. As The Diplomat noted recently, Russia and China concluded a naval exercise in the Mediterranean just two weeks ago.

The details of any bilateral Russia-China exercise in the South China Sea remain sparse. Russian state media notes that the likely time frame for the exercise is May 2016. Events are moving swiftly in the South China Sea — particularly with regard to China’s land reclamation and construction activities on disputed islands and reefs in the Spratly and Paracel Islands.

China has strongly emphasized that its construction activities in the South China Sea are primarily “for civilian purposes,” but as recent events have shown, the People’s Liberation Army is present in the region. A bilateral naval exercise next year between the Russian and Chinese navies could showcase the utility of some of the new features China has established on the disputed islands, including airstrips and radar installations.

Russia Plans South China Sea Naval Exercise With China in 2016 | The Diplomat

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## Peaceful Civilian

Wow, Congrats. Enjoy your ride!

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## Beast

Its time Russian return the favour after we send our Type054A frigate to Europe to support brotherly Russian against US.

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## Huaren

There must be some kind of mistake, I am sure russian plans are for the viets to exercise together instad of china.

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## TaiShang

*Silk Road Journey Xinjiang: China to construct freight line*

A new 300-kilometer railway in China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region is expected to be whistling at the end of 2016, linking Baketu port near Kazakhstan and Kuitun.

*When it opens in 2017, the railway is expected to carry over 10 million tons of freight annually. Officials expect that number will eventually increase to 15 million tons.*

Tacheng town and Karamay city are two main sites along the freight line. Tacheng is rich in coal while Karamay has a major oil field that has been under development by China National Petroleum Corporation since 1955.

Xinjiang, China’s passage to northwestern and central Asia, is vital to President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road Initiative.

The new railway aims to help Tacheng and Karamay expand their market share both in China and abroad.

The railway will also run through major industrial parks and urban communities in Xinjiang. It is expected to be part of a national network connecting Xinjiang with neighboring Gansu Province and Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region.

Kazakhstan has announced a plan to build its part of the railway link from its capital Astana to Tacheng in Xinjiang, said Tan Liwei, a project manager from China Railway Corporation.

Pending completion of the railway, cargo will be transported from China’s Pacific coast to Europe in eight days. The process now takes more than a month via a maritime route.

Tacheng is located near the border with Kazakhstan in a no man’s land. Although the area is vast and uninhabited, it used to be one of the busiest sections on the ancient Silk Road thousands of years ago.

CCTV reporter Han Peng has paid a visit to Tacheng to see the railway construction, and asked locals about their hopes for the project.


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## LacViet

It could been in Zhongsha. There is no disputed.

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## TaiShang

sicsheep said:


> *A major point of agreement between China and Russia, per Antonov’s comments in Singapore, is that the United States is the primary destabilizing factor in the South China Sea*.



It is high time to balance out the US and stop its destabilizing policies in SCS.

This is good for regional peace and development, if true.

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## Aepsilons

I wonder if it has anything to do with this:

Japan keen on regular participation in US-India Malabar exercises - Livemint


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## DaiViet

I dont think this will happen unless Russian wanted to lose its tradditional ally Vietnam. It has been Russian support Vietnam stance against China consistency even before U.S pivot to Asia. See how Russian Gazprom drilling oil in SCS despite China protest.


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## AndrewJin

*Lanzhou-Xinjiang HSR, *
hope one day it can further link Central Asia and Russia!










*Old Lanzhou-Xinjiang Railway, one section of the modern Silk Road*

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I wonder if it has anything to do with this:
> 
> Japan keen on regular participation in US-India Malabar exercises - Livemint


 
This is like poker, China will revail its own cards at the right time to comfort Japan. With the progress of our naval power, we just shown Amercian that we can go as far as black sea for military exercice, next there will be great Chance that we will do military excercice with Russia near Kurile or in Japan sea with North Korea...China don't run out of option when facing Japan, we will return Japan a favor the most appropriate and most pay off way but we dont cry like baby as Indians when our Sub dock in Sri Lanka .



DaiViet said:


> I dont think this will happen unless Russian wanted to lose its tradditional ally Vietnam. It has been Russian support Vietnam stance against China consistency even before U.S pivot to Asia. See how Russian Gazprom drilling oil in SCS despite China protest.


 
If you can cozy with American, what make you think they can't cozy with China, learn India's lesson, they start to feel the pain that 70% of their military harware are still depend on Russia why cozying with American. Vietnam is just a dump yard, it will be disposed when it serve no purpose, you have nothing to offer to Russia beside annoying it with your relation to their enemy.

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## Aepsilons

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This is like poker, China will revail its own cards at the right time to comfort Japan. With the progress of our naval power, we just shown Amercian that we can go as far as black sea for military exercice, next there will be great Chance that we will do military excercice with Russia near Kurile or in Japan sea with North Korea...China don't run out of option when facing Japan, we will return Japan a favor the most appropriate and most pay off way but we dont cry like baby as Indians when our Sub dock in Sri Lanka .




Come on buddy, nothing is every black and white. Its quite common for all three navies: JMSDF, USN, PLAN to work and train with each other. Less we forget. 









Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This is like poker, China will revail its own cards at the right time to comfort Japan. With the progress of our naval power, we just shown Amercian that we can go as far as black sea for military exercice, next there will be great Chance that we will do military excercice with Russia near Kurile or in Japan sea with North Korea...China don't run out of option when facing Japan, we will return Japan a favor the most appropriate and most pay off way but we dont cry like baby as Indians when our Sub dock in Sri Lanka .




Who said that JMSDF and PLAN naval officers can't get along --- behind close doors ? 

I think our personnel get along very well.

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## DaiViet

Maybe


Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This is like poker, China will revail its own cards at the right time to comfort Japan. With the progress of our naval power, we just shown Amercian that we can go as far as black sea for military exercice, next there will be great Chance that we will do military excercice with Russia near Kurile or in Japan sea with North Korea...China don't run out of option when facing Japan, we will return Japan a favor the most appropriate and most pay off way but we dont cry like baby as Indians when our Sub dock in Sri Lanka .
> 
> 
> 
> If you can cozy with American, what make you think they can't cozy with China, learn India's lesson, they start to feel the pain that 70% of their military harware are still depend on Russia why cozying with American. Vietnam is just a dump yard, it will be disposed when it serve no purpose, you have nothing to offer to Russia beside annoying it with your relation to their enemy.


May be you should learn reality straight instead of delusional fool yourself.

*Vietnam and Eurasian Economic Union free trade zone deal in ‘home straight’ – Russian PM*
*Russia and Vietnam also guarantee the development of Vietnamese and Russian offshore oil and gas projects. Russia’s Gazprom Neft and the Oil and Gas Corporation of Vietnam signed a memorandum of understanding to acquire a 49 percent share of Vietnam’s Binh Son Refining and Petrochemicals.



Read more

Russia and Vietnam to jointly develop energy in Arctic, Siberia


The Russian and Vietnamese delegations signed 17 priority projects for 2015 that include the supply of equipment for Vietnamese power plants, construction and technological upgrading of enterprises and the creation of industrial clusters.

Medvedev said Russia is working out the possibility of building a plant for Russian trucks (GAZ, KAMAZ, UAZ) and road equipment in Vietnam, as well as the production of rolling stock for railways.

Vietnam is currently implementing about a hundred projects with Russian investment. Russia hopes to shortly start building Vietnam’s first nuclear power plant and create a Center for Nuclear Science and Technology, Medvedev said.
*

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## 大汉奸柳传志

What a sad story. Betrayed by China in 1979 and by Russia in 2016

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## LacViet

*Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said that Japan is still ready to welcome Russian President Vladimir Putin for an official visit this year.
*
MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Japan is still ready to welcome Russian President Vladimir Putin for an official visit this year, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said Monday.
“To move forward the issue of the Northern Territories [Kuril Islands], we would want the visit to take place at a suitable time,” Abe said in a statement aired by national broadcaster NHK.
Discussing this year’s G7 summit, the Japanese minister stated that, based on the current situation in Ukraine, “it hard to imagine that the summit next year will be a summit of G8.”
“However, this time too, many leaders noted the need for the constructive participation of Russia in solving problems in Syria, Iran, North Korea,” he added.
The Russian president was initially set to visit Japan in the autumn of 2014, though the trip was delayed amid international tensions over the Ukraine crisis.
Earlier in June, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov said that talks between Tokyo and Moscow on Putin’s Japan trip are underway, though the date has not yet been set.


Japan’s Plans on Putin Visit Unchanged – Prime Minister / Sputnik International

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## Viet

utp45 said:


> What a sad story. *Betrayed *by China in 1979 and by Russia in 2016


betrayed is the wrong word. more precise is invasion or aggression by china.

today is june 12, 2015. why not wait for 2016 (what month?) to come before making wild speculations? it will be a lot of water flowing down the red river until a such exercise happens. from the article, the exercise will include Russia’s allies in the Asia-Pacific region. I wonder whom.

even if VN is not invited to the fun game, it is not like the world will go down. but we will consider it as a unfriendly act.


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## Beidou2020

An excellent way to further strengthen Russia-China military relationship.

Russia is most welcome in the SCS.

Russia-China alliance getting stronger by the day. 

Russia and China are 2 strong and independent countries cooperating on an equal basis, unlike other relationships where there is a slave-master relationship.

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## Viet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This is like poker, China will revail its own cards at the right time to comfort Japan. With the progress of our naval power, we just shown Amercian that we can go as far as black sea for military exercice, next there will be great Chance that we will do military excercice with Russia near Kurile or in Japan sea with North Korea...China don't run out of option when facing Japan, we will return Japan a favor the most appropriate and most pay off way but we dont cry like baby as Indians when our Sub dock in Sri Lanka .
> 
> 
> 
> If you can cozy with American, what make you think they can't cozy with China, learn India's lesson, they start to feel the pain that 70% of their military harware are still depend on Russia why cozying with American. Vietnam is just a dump yard, it will be disposed when it serve no purpose, you have nothing to offer to Russia beside annoying it with your relation to their enemy.


can you give me a quote from your government: "china welcomes russia in the SC Sea", can´t you?
until now, china policy is to keep great and other military powers out of SC Sea dispute, america, russia, japan, india, england and france. I wonder if she has changed the mind for russia.

edit: I ignore the rest of your bullshit.


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## NiceGuy

Pls Show that Russian navy will have the drill wt CN in the disputed zone


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## Viet

we drill for oil and gas in russia, while the russians drill with vietnam in the SC Sea. who cries?

NEWS Â |Â Gazprom, PetroVietnam to Work on Pechora Sea Shelf's Upstream Projects Â |Â Rigzone

UPDATE 1-Russia's Gazprom to take Vietnam refinery stake, part of energy pact| Reuters


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## XiaoYaoZi

Vietnam definitely cannot face the fact that it is only a little country although with a population of 90 million.the dream will seriously collide with the reality.As a chess,the result of wanting to be a player will be a painful tragedy.

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## Huan

XiaoYaoZi said:


> Vietnam definitely cannot face the fact that it is only a little country although with a population of 90 million.the dream will seriously collide with the reality.As a chess,the result of wanting to be a player will be a painful tragedy.


And its economy is smaller than Indonesia. lol Can Vietnam keep affording to play as a major military player?

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## XiaoYaoZi

Huan said:


> And its economy is smaller than Indonesia. lol Can Vietnam keep affording to play as a major military player?


they think they can do it.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I wonder if it has anything to do with this:
> 
> Japan keen on regular participation in US-India Malabar exercises - Livemint


Most likely. Chinese felt quiet insecure about it 



> He suggested that his Chinese interlocutors had apparently "connected the dots" from observing the MALABAR exercise involving the US, Japan, Indonesia, Singapore and Australia that they were being "militarily surrounded." He proposed that they could only be disabused of these inferences by more transparency, including involving them more deeply as observers in such exercises, though this was not without some risk of excessive disclosure.



Cable reference id: [HASHTAG]#08CANBERRA185[/HASHTAG]


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## cnleio

Watch out ! Russian coming to SCS to support dear Vietnamese bros ... just with Chinese together.

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## Kyle Sun

IT has nothing to do with Vietnam.
it's a game between cn,us,ru


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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> IT has nothing to do with Vietnam.
> it's a *game *between cn,us,ru


just in case you haven´t noticed. we have 48 outposts in the spratlys, while you only 8.
yeah play your game, while we ours.


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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> just in case you haven´t noticed. we have 48 outposts in the spratlys, while you only 8.
> yeah play your game, while we ours.


The number will count down one by one.
And try to find yourself in the picture.

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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> The number will count down one by one.
> And try to find yourself in the picture.
> View attachment 229269


when our outposts reach 100, and land reclaimation 1 million m2, you are welcome posting more cartoons.


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## northeast

The purpose of this naval exesercise is to show our power to America.I don't think it has anything to do with southeastern asian countries.

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## Kyle Sun

Viet said:


> when our outposts reach 100, and land reclaimation 1 million m2, you are welcome posting more cartoons.


in your dream.


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## BuddhaPalm

Viet is tossed away like a used napkin. Just like Soviet Union failed to rescue Viet from Chinese butcher knife in 1979.

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## greenwood

Kyle Sun said:


> The number will count down one by one.
> And try to find yourself in the picture.
> View attachment 229269


 
impressive.


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## Beidou2020

Viet said:


> when our outposts reach 100, and land reclaimation 1 million m2, you are welcome posting more cartoons.



China will take over those islands one by one as our capability grows, Vietnam can't do a damn thing to hurt China. Chinese coast guard ships alone is enough to reclaim every single one of those islands. And I can assure you, the Chinese campaign in the SCS is just beginning.

China is currently in the process of a massive naval buildup that includes coast guard cutters, type 056/A corvettes, and type 054A frigates. China has the money with a military budget that's close to $250 billion per year, China has the industrial base and China has the shipbuilding might to out build any country, especially little Asian ants like Vietnam and Philippines.

China is Asia's giant, Vietnam is too small, too poor and too weak to compete with China.

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## DaiViet

XiaoYaoZi said:


> Vietnam definitely cannot face the fact that it is only a little country although with a population of 90 million.the dream will seriously collide with the reality.As a chess,the result of wanting to be a player will be a painful tragedy.


Is this another empty threat? Uh it would be delusional to think Russia will side with China over dispute in Scs. Russia would not want to risk losing its tradition allies over a dispute benefit them nothing to a volatile and greedy ally such as China. Somebody must fail to read the article I post, isn't Russia the one to arm Vietnamese with all advanced military equipment and will be the first to build nuclear for Vietnam?

i must ready to handle another reply with full of wishful thinking from Chinese posters.

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## Viet

Kyle Sun said:


> in your dream.


well, we have reclaimed 200,000 m2. I bet we reach 0.5 million m2 by year end. and 1 million m2 next year.


Beidou2020 said:


> China will take over those islands one by one as our capability grows, Vietnam can't do a damn thing to hurt China. Chinese coast guard ships alone is enough to reclaim every single one of those islands. And I can assure you, the Chinese campaign in the SCS is just beginning.
> 
> China is currently in the process of a massive naval buildup that includes coast guard cutters, type 056/A corvettes, and type 054A frigates. China has the money with a military budget that's close to $250 billion per year, China has the industrial base and China has the shipbuilding might to out build any country, especially little Asian ants like Vietnam and Philippines.
> 
> China is Asia's giant, Vietnam is too small, too poor and too weak to compete with China.


you wannabe chinese. if I recall you say being german, right? or a part of it? can you speak german?
verstehst du deutsch? willst du einen kick in den arsch? mach dir keine falsche illusion, dass wir zurückstecken. das ist nicht unser natur. wenn du was willst, komme und hole es. mit blut.



DaiViet said:


> Is this another empty threat? Uh it would be delusional to think Russia will side with China over dispute in Scs. Russia would not want to risk losing its tradition allies over a dispute benefit them nothing to a volatile and greedy ally such as China. Somebody must fail to read the article I post, isn't Russia the one to arm Vietnamese with all advanced military equipment and will be the first to build nuclear for Vietnam?
> 
> i must ready to handle another reply with full of wishful thinking from Chinese posters.


let the chinese dream their dream. aren´t the russians that snapped a large part of china? manchuria, mongolia?


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## truthseeker2010

When happened, then this will be the star of the show, the mighty varyag.....


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## Jlaw

BuddhaPalm said:


> Viet is tossed away like a used napkin. Just like Soviet Union failed to rescue Viet from Chinese butcher knife in 1979.



It's because Russia even in 1979 see China as a major force in the upcoming years. Rather antagonizing her, Russia allowed us to give the little viets a spanking. 

Vietnam=pawn in a chess game. Readily disposable.

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## NiceGuy

Jlaw said:


> It's because Russia even in 1979 see China as a major force in the upcoming years. Rather antagonizing her, Russia allowed us to give the little viets a spanking.
> 
> Vietnam=pawn in a chess game. Readily disposable.


We will request Myanmar to spank & grab more lands from CN again. Remember how CN lost Ko Kang ??


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## XiaoYaoZi

NiceGuy said:


> We will request Myanmar to spank & grab more lands from CN again. Remember how CN lost Ko Kang ??


you should care about all north vietnam that will split from vietnam and become the province of Guangnan of china.

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## NiceGuy

XiaoYaoZi said:


> you should care about all north vietnam that will split from vietnam and become the province of Guangnan of china.


Thats only in your wet dream, when CN shamefully surrenderred KoKang to Myanmar and its people still got kill mercilessly by Myanmar till now is the Truth


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Viet said:


> can you give me a quote from your government: "china welcomes russia in the SC Sea", can´t you?
> until now, china policy is to keep great and other military powers out of SC Sea dispute, america, russia, japan, india, england and france. I wonder if she has changed the mind for russia.
> 
> edit: I ignore the rest of your bullshit.


 
Unlike Vietnam, China don't need to make any insecure statement to invite other foreign powers as Vietnam, Japan and Philippine did but we welcome all nations into SCS because we believe on freedom of navigation  and we ask others nations for reprocity, if they don't then too bad.



DaiViet said:


> Maybe
> 
> May be you should learn reality straight instead of delusional fool yourself.
> 
> *Vietnam and Eurasian Economic Union free trade zone deal in ‘home straight’ – Russian PM*
> *Russia and Vietnam also guarantee the development of Vietnamese and Russian offshore oil and gas projects. Russia’s Gazprom Neft and the Oil and Gas Corporation of Vietnam signed a memorandum of understanding to acquire a 49 percent share of Vietnam’s Binh Son Refining and Petrochemicals.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Read more
> 
> Russia and Vietnam to jointly develop energy in Arctic, Siberia*
> 
> 
> *The Russian and Vietnamese delegations signed 17 priority projects for 2015 that include the supply of equipment for Vietnamese power plants, construction and technological upgrading of enterprises and the creation of industrial clusters.*
> 
> *Medvedev said Russia is working out the possibility of building a plant for Russian trucks (GAZ, KAMAZ, UAZ) and road equipment in Vietnam, as well as the production of rolling stock for railways.*
> 
> *Vietnam is currently implementing about a hundred projects with Russian investment. Russia hopes to shortly start building Vietnam’s first nuclear power plant and create a Center for Nuclear Science and Technology, Medvedev said.*


 
What you show us is just somee economic cooperations, China has over thousand cooperations with Russia and all are huges projects such pipelines, Helicopter research and design...in this threat we're talking the geopolitical issue...you just don't know what you're talking about.

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## XiaoYaoZi

NiceGuy said:


> Thats only in your wet dream, when CN shamefully surrenderred KoKang to Myanmar and its people still got kill mercilessly by Myanmar till now is the Truth


you dont have enough knowledge of north myanmar, you dont know why the problem of north myanmar happeni dont care anything of north myanmar,but for a viet he should care that the north of vietnam become second the north of myanmar.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Come on buddy, nothing is every black and white. Its quite common for all three navies: JMSDF, USN, PLAN to work and train with each other. Less we forget.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who said that JMSDF and PLAN naval officers can't get along --- behind close doors ?
> 
> I think our personnel get along very well.


 
Don't get me wrong, this is not personal, what I tried to get at is...if your gorvernement come to SCS in false pretense for freedome of navigation and try to help philippine, Vietnam against us than don't blame if we reciprocate by supporting Russia over Kurile islands or South Korea over the contested island...

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## Mr.Nair

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> This is like poker, China will revail its own cards at the right time to comfort Japan. With the progress of our naval power, we just shown Amercian that we can go as far as black sea for military exercice, next there will be great Chance that we will do military excercice with Russia near Kurile or in Japan sea with North Korea...China don't run out of option when facing Japan, we will return Japan a favor the most appropriate and most pay off way but we dont cry like baby as Indians when our Sub dock in Sri Lanka .
> 
> 
> 
> If you can cozy with American, what make you think they can't cozy with China, learn India's lesson, they start to feel the pain that 70% of their military harware are still depend on Russia why cozying with American. Vietnam is just a dump yard, it will be disposed when it serve no purpose, you have nothing to offer to Russia beside annoying it with your relation to their enemy.



Lol who is crying for docking submarine, but srilanka refused any future attempt.

China wants stable military ties with Sri Lanka| Reuters


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Mr.Nair said:


> Lol who is crying for docking submarine, but srilanka refused any future attempt.
> 
> China wants stable military ties with Sri Lanka| Reuters


 
Arm twisting a small nation is Indian's nature, at least you guys have reveal your true color, no wonder practically all nations in SA welcome China except your poppet nation Bhutan.

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## Mr.Nair

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Arm twisting a small nation is Indian's nature, at least you guys have reveal your true color, no wonder practically all nations in SA welcome China except your poppet nation Bhutan.



Oh saint china have no color, you are now making more enemies than friends these days,India has problem with bangladesh but we improved our relation,srilanka was bad relation with india, now new government formed & have better relation and started eVisa facility for indians,our relation with nepal not bad as nepal and india can still travel each other with out any kind of visa.India followed bad policies by pvs government.Thinks have changed with indian aggressive diplomatic policy by new govt.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Mr.Nair said:


> Oh saint china have no color, you are now making more enemies than friends these days,India has problem with bangladesh but we improved our relation,srilanka was bad relation with india, now new government formed & have better relation and started eVisa facility for indians,our relation with nepal not bad as nepal and india can still travel each other with out any kind of visa.India followed bad policies by pvs government.Thinks have changed with indian aggressive diplomatic policy by new govt.


 
Sure we make more enemies such as India or US in which we have trade surplus with its...that's not bad at all as enemies...I wish we can make few more of these . I just like how you Indians claim to improve relation with your neighbors and you still couln't change their behaviors toward India....India is simply don't inspire to be trusted for them and that's why Nepal, Sri Lanka, Maldive want a China card on hand to deter India..and even Bhutan want to escape India's gravity but due to India threat of sanction, they're forced to change the Prime Minister

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## Mr.Nair

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Sure we make more enemies such as India or US in which we have trade surplus with its...that's not bad at all as enemies...I wish we can make few more of these . I just like how you Indians claim to improve relation with your neighbors and you still couln't change their behaviors toward India....India is simply don't inspire to be trusted for them and that's why Nepal, Sri Lanka, Maldive want a China card on hand to deter India..and even Bhutan want to escape India's gravity but due to India threat of sanction, they're forced to change the Prime Minister



Dream on china's diplomatic card in SA,wait few more years,lol


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## rott

Beidou2020 said:


> China will take over those islands one by one as our capability grows, Vietnam can't do a damn thing to hurt China. Chinese coast guard ships alone is enough to reclaim every single one of those islands. And I can assure you, the Chinese campaign in the SCS is just beginning.
> 
> China is currently in the process of a massive naval buildup that includes coast guard cutters, type 056/A corvettes, and type 054A frigates. China has the money with a military budget that's close to $250 billion per year, China has the industrial base and China has the shipbuilding might to out build any country, especially little Asian ants like Vietnam and Philippines.
> 
> China is Asia's giant, Vietnam is too small, too poor and too weak to compete with China.


Insignificant Vietnam. Just like an irritant fly that needs to be swatted.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Mr.Nair said:


> Dream on china's diplomatic card in SA,wait few more years,lol


 
We're looking forward to see what India can do in SA in more years, time is not running against China

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> An excellent way to further strengthen Russia-China military relationship.
> 
> Russia is most welcome in the SCS.
> 
> Russia-China alliance getting stronger by the day.
> 
> Russia and China are 2 strong and independent countries cooperating on an equal basis, unlike other relationships where there is a slave-master relationship.



And there is more to come 

*China-Russia joint military drill to be held in the Sea of Japan*
June 12, 2015





The second stage of the "Joint Sea-2015" drill will be held in the Sea of Japan. (Photo/ Sputniknews.cn)

According to Russia-based website Sputnik, airborne troops and Marine Corps of China and Russia will land at a Pacific Fleet range near Cape Klerk in the second stage of the *"Joint Sea-2015" drill.*

Officers from the Russian Eastern Military District, the Pacific Fleet Headquarters and representatives of the Chinese People's Liberation Army carried out reconnaissance mission at Knevichi Airfield during June 8 to 11. China and Russia held a conference in Vladivostok on Wednesday, discussing details of this joint military drill.

*The first stage of the "Joint Sea-2015" drill was held in the Mediterranean.*

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TaiShang said:


> And there is more to come
> 
> *China-Russia joint military drill to be held in the Sea of Japan*
> June 12, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second stage of the "Joint Sea-2015" drill will be held in the Sea of Japan. (Photo/ Sputniknews.cn)
> 
> According to Russia-based website Sputnik, airborne troops and Marine Corps of China and Russia will land at a Pacific Fleet range near Cape Klerk in the second stage of the *"Joint Sea-2015" drill.*
> 
> Officers from the Russian Eastern Military District, the Pacific Fleet Headquarters and representatives of the Chinese People's Liberation Army carried out reconnaissance mission at Knevichi Airfield during June 8 to 11. China and Russia held a conference in Vladivostok on Wednesday, discussing details of this joint military drill.
> 
> *The first stage of the "Joint Sea-2015" drill was held in the Mediterranean.*


 
China-Russia military exercice is not aiming at any third countries...

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## TaiShang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China-Russia military exercice is not aiming at any third countries...



Definitely. It is to ensure freedom of navigation, liberty and justice. US and its allies have taken too much "responsibility" recently. Out of good-heart, China and Russia is taking away parts and chunks of that "responsibility." 

Obama can re-pivot now. AQ/ISIS needs new equipment.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Definitely. It is to ensure freedom of navigation, liberty and justice. US and its allies have taken too much "responsibility" recently. Out of good-heart, China and Russia is taking away parts and chunks of that "responsibility."
> 
> Obama can re-pivot now. AQ/ISIS needs new equipment.


 
Indeed both China and Russia are concern of the freedom of navigation

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## DaiViet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China-Russia military exercice is not aiming at any third countries...


Oh wow congrat, this news does make Chinese happy jump up and down hope there more similar news like this. Actually Im stil waiting for the news russia china military exercise in scs, that will full fill the wish of Chinese, and prove what they said right about Vietnam is chess piece insignificant small watt, and sold out by Russia.

I want to know why Chinese hate japanese than Russian who took a large part of manchus holy land.


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## Beidou2020

Mr.Nair said:


> Lol who is crying for docking submarine, but srilanka refused any future attempt.
> 
> China wants stable military ties with Sri Lanka| Reuters



Future, China will have its naval assets in Sri Lanka. Chinese intelligence will now make sure the next election is won by pro-China people.

China now knows it has to get directly involved in Sri Lankan affairs as its now our business.

Make no mistake, Chinese naval assets will increase its presence in the South Asian Ocean.

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## NiceGuy

Beidou2020 said:


> Future, China will have its naval assets in Sri Lanka. Chinese intelligence will now make sure the next election is won by pro-China people.
> 
> China now knows it has to get directly involved in Sri Lankan affairs as its now our business.
> 
> Make no mistake, Chinese naval assets will increase its presence in the South Asian Ocean.


Myanmar navy will stop your cheap dream, dont make them angry, they may take more lands from CN after KoKang


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## Beidou2020

NiceGuy said:


> Myanmar navy will stop your cheap dream, dont make them angry, they may take more lands from CN after KoKang



Myanmar Navy? 

Do they even have a Navy?

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## Mr.Nair

Beidou2020 said:


> Future, China will have its naval assets in Sri Lanka. Chinese intelligence will now make sure the next election is won by pro-China people.
> 
> China now knows it has to get directly involved in Sri Lankan affairs as its now our business.
> 
> Make no mistake, Chinese naval assets will increase its presence in the South Asian Ocean.



You don't have a diplomatic clout over india in srilankan matters even in future.just dream on...
By the way your own leaders tell again and again that we don't interfere in other countries internal affair, how come this double speak !


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## Beidou2020

Mr.Nair said:


> You don't have a diplomatic clout over india in srilankan matters even in future.just dream on...
> By the way your own leaders tell again and again that we don't interfere in other countries internal affair, how come this double speak !



We can say whatever we want and do whatever we want.
No one can stop us.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

DaiViet said:


> Oh wow congrat, this news does make Chinese happy jump up and down hope there more similar news like this. Actually Im stil waiting for the news russia china military exercise in scs, that will full fill the wish of Chinese, and prove what they said right about Vietnam is chess piece insignificant small watt, and sold out by Russia.
> 
> I want to know why Chinese hate japanese than Russian who took a large part of manchus holy land.


 
No we're not jump up and down because we're not insecure like Viets or Pinoys, it has been for millenium that China stand alone in Asia even at the most difficult period of time which we have to handle 8 powerfull invaders during the 18s centurry, we can live and stand alone without Russia, but nothing will hurt China by having Russia to take part of pissing contest against USA, this is just a geopolitical game , Vietnam, Philipinne, Japan and US will not have all the fun alone, we surely know how to entertain ourself too.

And for your information, we dont hate Japanese more than Russian, we Chinese are pragmatic if Japan did anything against China's interest and Russia and China fight for the commun interest which to get rid of assertive Americans domination of this world than I think it's obvious that China-Russia relation is more friendlier than China-Japan relation...it's so classic

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## Viet

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Unlike Vietnam, China don't need to make any insecure statement to invite other foreign powers as Vietnam, Japan and Philippine did but we welcome all nations into SCS because we believe on freedom of navigation  and we ask others nations for reprocity, if they don't then too bad..


will you convince xi jinping to cut China in 10 equal pieces?
othwerwise we keep inviting all other nations to the party.

anyway, I wonder why you try so hard to lick russia boot? do you hope they will give you back outer manchuria or mongolia? I suggest you seek a doctor. take other chinese posters here with you.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Viet said:


> will you convince xi jinping to cut China in 10 equal pieces?
> othwerwise we keep inviting all other nations to the party.
> 
> anyway, I wonder why you try so hard to lick russia boot? do you hope they will give you back outer manchuria or mongolia? I suggest you seek a doctor. take other chinese posters here with you.


 
 I have no doubt that you Viets dream days and night to cut China into 10 pieces, your ancestors had dreamed that generation to generation but always woke up the see China became stronger and bigger and Vietname continued to be enslaved for milenium as stributary state...it had engraved into your Vietnamese gene to have such dream but it's not unlawfull to keep dreaming .

you can invite anyones you wished to comfort yourself and to patch your sense of insecure, we don't give a rat a$$ , We don't lick Russia boot as you Viets did during the cold war and turn out to be desperated when they didn't come to rescue you in 1979 when China storm Vietnam, very disappoint isnt' it? . We chinese are very healthy mentally that why we don't need to keep dreaming to cut Vietnam into 10 pieces but our present in SCS is good enought to tormente Vietnam for another milenium.

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## JaiMin

As i renembered China and Russia were doing this kind of thing few years back if i'm not mistake. Most likely they will do near Gulf of Tonkin or Hainan island btw, don't know why need to drag Vietnam in, alot of contries do that. Russia is isolated btw, they need to counter the embargo and act tough, nothing surprising about that. Neither Russia or China want to raise tension, they all want bilateral talk, it is not in interest of China or lesser extent Vietnam to turning SCS into international water.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I have no doubt that you Viets dream days and night to cut China into 10 pieces, your ancestors had dreamed that generation to generation but always woke up the see China became stronger and bigger and Vietname continued to be enslaved for milenium as stributary state...it had engraved into your Vietnamese gene to have such dream but it's not unlawfull to keep dreaming .
> 
> you can invite anyones you wished to comfort yourself and to patch your sense of insecure, we don't give a rat a$$ , We don't lick Russia boot as you Viets did during the cold war and turn out to be desperated when they didn't come to rescue you in 1979 when China storm Vietnam, very disappoint isnt' it? . We chinese are very healthy mentally that why we don't need to keep dreaming to cut Vietnam into 10 pieces but our present in SCS is good enought to tormente Vietnam for another milenium.



Nation is recent creation, you might want to check your coutry history before you talk. China most of the time in history has war within itself and the deadliest civil war also, just check casualty. I don't know in history our emperors have that kind of dream, why go to China if you have alternative in the South and West with similar amount of resource but lesser population? China most of the time have biggest pop in the world, it is stupid to conquer them "without making the majority become minority at very fast rate", you will end up like Mongolia at the end, it is big fishes eat small fishes world back then.

And dysnasty fight and war for the sake of their families and interest not for the nation like many scholar like to portray these day

About the mentally, ultra-nationalist Chinese here have same kind toward Japan and USA

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## Reashot Xigwin

NiceGuy said:


> U r licking Russia-Myanmar boots now, thats why u dare not demand them to return your lost lands
> 
> At least Cn is cut into 5 pieces : Mainland (mainly dirty,polluted, barren) -TW-Kokang-Lost land to Russia-Half of Mongol



You got it backward. Burma & Russia is busy licking China's boots. With China's help Russia managed to weather the sanction & Burma would have disintegrated a long time ago without China.


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## NiceGuy

Reashot Xigwin said:


> You got it backward. Burma & Russia is busy licking China's boots. With China's help Russia managed to weather the sanction & Burma would have disintegrated a long time ago without China.


Dude, you seem like idiot Ah Q in Indones . If a nation come and take away your Jakarta or Sumatra and they say some flowerish words to u, then u will think that nation is licking your boots ??

pls read The true story of Ah Q, if u still dont know who is Ah Q.

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## Nan Yang

MI6 is forced to pull spies out of hostile countries after Russia and China decode a MILLION encrypted files

*Classified files could lead to identification of British and American spies*

*Spy chiefs in Russia and China have cracked one million top-secret files*

*Home Office official has accused Snowden of having 'blood on his hands'*

*Security services have 'had difficulties tracking terrorists' since the leaks*

Read more: Britain forced to withdraw spies and U.S. on high alert after Russia and China access secret files stolen by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden | Daily Mail Online

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## terranMarine

double o sevens on the run?


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## BHAN85

They dont have imagination to invent excuses for bullying China due to AIIB and BRIC bank and now they copy ideas from james bond movies.



UK should worry more about USA dark plans than about imaginary China attacks.
China is a peaceful and respectful country in their foreign relations, unlike USA & UK.


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## Reashot Xigwin

NiceGuy said:


> Dude, you seem like idiot Ah Q in Indones . If a nation come and take away your Jakarta or Sumatra and they say some flowerish words to u, then u will think that nation is licking your boots ??
> 
> pls read The true story of Ah Q, if u still dont know who is Ah Q.

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## root

I have read the article it is full of crap seriously western media is becoming comedy like onion news.

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## cirr

*Russia and China broke into Snowden files to identify western spies, says MI6*

*Sunday Times* says Downing Street believes both nations have hacked into American whistleblower’s files, and that agents have been put in peril




Edward Snowden takes part in an online Q&A session from Moscow last year. Photograph: Itar-Tass/Barcroft Media

James Tapper

Sunday 14 June 2015 01.02 BSTLast modified on Sunday 14 June 201508.37 BST

Downing Street believes that Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies have used documents from whistleblower Edward Snowden to identify British and US secret agents, according to a report in the Sunday Times.

The newspaper says MI6, Britain’s Secret Intelligence Service, has withdrawn agents from overseas operations because Russian security services had broken into encrypted files held by American computer analyst Snowden.

Snowden provided the Guardian with top secret documents from the US National Security Agency (NSA), which revealed that western intelligence agencies had been undertaking mass surveillance of phone and internet use.

He fled to Hong Kong, then to Moscow, and the Sunday Times claims that both Chinese and Russian security officials gained access to his files as a result.

The files held by Snowden were encrypted, but now British officials believe both countries have hacked into the files, according to the report.

The newspaper quotes a series of anonymous sources from Downing Street, the Home Office and British intelligence saying that the documents contained intelligence techniques and information that would enable foreign powers to identify British and American spies.

The newspaper quoted a “senior Downing Street source” saying that “Russians and Chinese have information”.

The source said “agents have had to be moved and that knowledge of how we operate has stopped us getting vital information”. The source said they had “no evidence” that anyone had been harmed.
A “senior Home Office source” was also quoted by the newspaper, saying: “Putin didn’t give him asylum for nothing. His documents were encrypted but they weren’t completely secure and we have now seen our agents and assets being targeted.”

The Sunday Times also quoted a “British intelligence source” saying that Russian and Chinese officials would be examining Snowden’s material for “years to come”.

“Snowden has done incalculable damage,” the intelligence source reportedly said. “In some cases the agencies have been forced to intervene and lift their agents from operations to prevent them from being identified and killed.”

A Downing Street spokeswoman told the Observer on Saturday night: “We don’t comment on leaks.”

Russia and China broke into Snowden files to identify western spies, says MI6 | US news | The Guardian

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## cirr

*China’s overseas lending dominated by its One Belt, One Road initiative*




One Belt One Road projects, including the Colombo Port City in Sri Lanka, aim to boost connectivity and commerce between China and 65 countries. Photo: Reuters

PUBLISHED: 4:16 AM, JUNE 22, 2015

BEIJING — China’s commitment to building infrastructure in countries covered by its One Belt, One Road initiative — a scheme to boost development along ancient “silk road” trading routes between China and Europe — is revealed by data showing that the lion’s share of Beijing’s recent overseas lending pledges have been in countries that lie along the routes.

A study by Grison’s Peak, a boutique investment bank based in London, shows that the majority of 67 overseas loan commitments made by Beijing’s largest policy lenders, *the China Development Bank* and *the China Ex-Im Bank*, have been in areas defined by the One Belt, One Road strategy since it was agreed upon in late 2013.

If loans to regions not included in the strategy — namely Latin America and west/central Africa — are excluded from calculations, the proportion of overseas state loans that were directed to countries on or close to the trading routes is 76 per cent of total overseas state lending by the institutions during the five quarters ended in March this year, the Grison’s Peak study shows.

The One Belt, One Road strategy, a key policy of the administration of President Xi Jinping, was first incorporated into official Communist party documents in late 2013. Its principal aim is to boost connectivity and commerce between China and 65 countries with a total population of 4.4 billion by building infrastructure and boosting financial and trade ties.

These aims also come through in the data crunched by Grison’s Peak. Loans for infrastructure projects, including road, rail and power schemes, made up 52 per cent of the 67 loans pledged, while trade finance accounted for a further 30 per cent. The value of the 67 loans included in the study was US$49.4 billion (S$66 billion).

The focus on infrastructure is consistent with what Dr Parag Khanna, senior fellow at the New America Foundation, describes as China’s strategy to build up “infrastructure alliances” with countries it regards as important for commercial and strategic reasons.

“Infrastructure is a way of asserting connectivity ... as a tool of geopolitical leverage,” Dr Khanna said. “Infrastructure, particularly railways, has been a tool of extending influence for a couple of hundred years now, but not necessarily on this scale.”

“China is winning the new ‘Great Game’ by building the new silk roads,” Dr Khanna said, referencing the 19th-century rivalry between Russia and Britain for influence in Central Asia.

“The silk road economic belt ... is not new. There are 25 years of evolution on these projects. The purpose has always been the same for China, to smooth the flow of commodity imports and to smooth the outbound flow of goods,” he added.

*Just as in the development assistance programmes led by Western powers and Japan in previous decades, the policy bank loans extended under the One Belt, One Road initiative have mostly been tied to the involvement of Chinese firms, either as suppliers of machinery and raw materials or in constructing and operating projects.*

Grison’s Peak found that 70 per cent of the loans pledged were linked to the involvement of a China-based corporation. While this has been standard for trade finance, it seems now to have become a regular feature of Chinese state lending to infrastructure projects overseas as well, the investment bank said.

Lastly, *the concessionary nature of Chinese state lending may be diminishing*. Although interest rate details on state loans overseas are often not disclosed, *Grison’s Peak estimates that during the early stages of the One Belt, One Road project, rates “seemed to average 2 to 2.5 per cent”. More recently, they have been in the region of 4 to 4.5 per cent*, it said. THE FINANCIAL TIMES

China’s overseas lending dominated by its One Belt, One Road initiative | TODAYonline

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## NiceGuy

*China Leaves Russia High and Dry*
Posted by Staff Reporter (media@realtytoday.com) on Jun 19, 2015 08:10 AM EDT




more big

The world thought that Russia and China were best friends being the two leading communist nations in the world. That may not be entirely correct as one of Russia's biggest banks grumbles that China has foregone doing business with them due to Western sanctions.

In a report by Wopular, the second largest lender in Russia, VTB Bank, said that majority of Chinese banks have ceased transacting with them following EU-US sanctions on Russia. 

Yuri Soloviev, First Deputy Chairman of VTB Bank said that Chinese banks were not financing Russian trade, at least not through them. They also do not carry out interbank transactions and have considerably restricted their participation in Russia's trade deals.

It seemed that Chinese banks don't want to be deeply involved with the disagreement between western nations and Russia with regards to Russia's war in Crimea. After all, China has more business with the U.S. and Europe than with Russia.

China's unclear position and apparent reluctance to help Russian banks in the wake of US and EU sanctions is a major concern that can inhibit progress toward greater bilateral cooperation.

Russia's top banks Sberbank and VTB were sanctioned last year by the U.S. and European Union for Russia's unofficial support of a separatist uprising in eastern Ukraine. Since the sanctions began, Russia has been pressing its friendship with China to get through the rain. It may not have been peddling enough as China seemed diffident and unreliable.

In a related report of Forbes, economic indicators show that the recession in Russia will likely to get worse. Industrial production decreases by 5.5% and investment fell by 7.6% annually. While consumer demand improved moderately, real wages and retail sales actually fell by 7.3% and 9.2%, respectively.

While the Russian economy has effectively maintained their below consensus forecast of -4% GDP this year, the prospect for a recovery and better economy seemed far away especially with their supposedly best friend China is disobliging.

China Leaves Russia High and Dry : News : Realty Today

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## NiceGuy

So now, CN leaders change their mind and turn to accept the US's rule as long as daddy US continue to give CN some more cheap jobs ??


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## Kyle Sun

Ru and CN have nothing to do with you .please , leave us alone.

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## LacViet

Russian known well about mentality of Chinese from time of Mao. Its didn't changed up to now.


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## third eye

I think its possibly less to do with EU & US and more to do with return on investments.

No bank would like to have non performing assets. If the ability to repay seems weak so will be the funding.

In the financial world there are no friends.

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## TaiShang

Investment and business continue as usual. It is normal for businesses to be more cautious because those companies are also doing business in the US and do not want to lose money there. Necessary arrangements are being made, including alternative payment system.

Besides, as @third eye says, finance is extremely risk averse. 

***

*Chinese Company to Invest in Aquaculture Project in Russia*
22.06.2015

*China’s Wen Lian Aquaculture Company plans to invest 15 billion rubles in a biotechnopark in the Russian Far East, the Primorye Region’s administration announced on Monday.*

“Wen Lian Aquaculture Сompany is willing to actively participate in the projected creation of a biotechnopark on the Advanced Development Territory on Russky Island near Vladivostok,” the Primorye Region's deputy governor Sergei Nekhaev said after discussing with the Chinese company’s board chairman Qui Laizhong the prospects of investments into the region’s aquaculture and tourism.


Wen Lian Aquaculture Company Ltd. has been working in Russia since 2011 and has shown a great deal of interest in developing the island’s aquaculture as part of the Advanced Development Territories project.

“We want to grow sea cucumber and scallop spawn here and would like to become the first residents of this Advanced Development Territory,” Qui Laizhong said.

Sergei Nekhaev also briefed his Chinese partners on the resort and entertainment zone and the Vladivostok Free Port projects, which will turn the region into a major tourist hub.

Qui Laizhong said his company would like to join in the effort to make these two projects happen as well.

Wen Lian Aquaculture Company Ltd. grows, distributes, markets, and sells specialty seafood products.

The Company produces seed for scallops, geoducks and sea cucumbers for aquaculture farms.

***

*Alibaba Sees Business Potential in Russia*
2015-06-23






File photo taken on March 25, 2014 shows a staff member working at Alibaba Group's Xixi base in Hangzhou, capital of east China's Zhejiang Province. [Photo: xinhua]


China's e-commerce giant Alibaba is making a move in Russia to develop an online trading market.

Founder and chairman of the company Jack Ma says although they have only one employee working in Russia, Ali Express managed to become the No.1 most-visited e-commerce website in the country.

Launched in 2010, Ali Express allows smaller buyers around the world to buy small quantities of goods at wholesale prices.

Ali Express' rapid expansion in Russia proves the huge potential and consumer demand for e-commerce in the country.

The company is planning to invest more in human resources and technology in order to expand businesses in Russia, and help Russian enterprises to sell their products to China and other parts of the world.

Last week, Ma was in Russia to attend the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

He also met with Russian officials on different issues concerning e-commerce.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

Talking about being left high and dry，who is coming to rescue Vietnam when a future war with China breaks out？

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## Chinese-Dragon

utp45 said:


> Talking about being left high and dry，who is coming to rescue Vietnam when a future war with China breaks out？



The same ones who rescued them when we took the Xisha/Paracel islands from them.

I.e. No one.

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## LacViet

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The same ones who rescued them when we took the Xisha/Paracel islands from them.
> 
> I.e. No one.



This id dream of China.


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## NiceGuy

Kyle Sun said:


> Ru and CN have nothing to do with you .please , leave us alone.


Russia is our big bro, and I feel so sad for him when laying truth on the wrong guy like CN.

CN never have the will to fight against stronger enemy. If US didnt come and rescue them in WW2, Han-CNese may accept JP's rule for at least 300 years like how Manchus rule them 



utp45 said:


> Talking about being left high and dry，who is coming to rescue Vietnam when a future war with China breaks out？


Daddy US is not on your side now, so the question should be: Dare CNese leaders have the guts to attack VN ?? or they will retreat shamefully like in oil rig conflict ??


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## Kyle Sun

NiceGuy said:


> Russia is our big bro, and I feel so sad for him when laying truth on the wrong guy like CN.
> 
> CN never have the will to fight against stronger enemy. If US didnt come and rescue them in WW2, Han-CNese may accept JP's rule for at least 300 years like how Manchus rule them
> 
> 
> Daddy US is not on your side now, so the question should be: Dare CNese leaders have the guts to attack VN ?? or they will retreat shamefully like in oil rig conflict ??


I give up.
You almost drive me crazy

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## NiceGuy

Kyle Sun said:


> I give up.
> You almost drive me crazy


Cn is a big country, but why always so hard for u guys to stand up and fight against stronger enemy ?? why always bully the weaker but bowing down to the stronger ??

I also give up to the 'spiritual victory' of Ah Q, another bad & poignant ending waiting for u again


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## mike2000 is back

Kyle Sun said:


> I give up.
> You almost drive me crazy

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## Reashot Xigwin

Kyle Sun said:


> I give up.
> You almost drive me crazy



He's the site retard. Don't bother replying to him.

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## Kyle Sun

Reashot Xigwin said:


> He's the site retard. Don't bother replying to him.


you are right . it is unable to do rational discuss with him.


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## mike2000 is back

I think China is just being realistic. This world is still a western dominated world by far. So why waste your country resources/potential just because you want to be seen as 'standing up to the West? It brings a country no benefit other than sanctions and isolation. When the U. S/west decide to sanction a country, almost all the whole world follows suit because the West has a lot of leverage over the world, both technologically, financially, militarily, scientifically, economically etc. So it's almost impossible to live a good life/grow healthily while being isolated from the West, just look at IRAN (Russia refused to sell them S-300MISSILE because of western pressure. Lool) ,north Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe and recently even niceguy big brother alias master Russia (it is under recessions /facing severe shortage of funds. lool).

So China is wise to follow the West when need be and not antagonise it's biggest trading partners by far. Of what benefit will that be of China to do So? none.  so China ought to bid it's time until it's at least almost as strong as the U. S before it can even start dreaming of going against the western block head on. Just common sense 

@NiceGuy even your small Vietnam is now trying to cozy up/find favours with the West today after coming to it's senses and suffering from isolation /poverty due to western sanctions. So don't blame just the Chinese, Vietnam is no better.  no country can do without the west and continue growing healthily /be prosperous.

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## somsak

You needs to go technical details such as Swift before believing anything such a big conclusion as topic.
You also need to have overall statistics before believing anything such a big conclusion as topic.
May they just switch to other Russian banks.
May be it is to switch to newly SWIFT system.
One example does not give overall picture.

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## NiceGuy

mike2000 is back said:


> @NiceGuy even your small Vietnam is now trying to cozy up/find favours with the West today after coming to it's senses and suffering from isolation /poverty due to western sanctions. So don't blame just the Chinese, Vietnam is no better.  no country can do without the west and continue growing healthily /be prosperous.


Its just bcz CN dont have another smart leader wt iron-will like great chairman Mao who will give a full support to VN to kick the West out of ASEAN or at least sub-Mekong region , so now Asian ppl plus Russia have to be submitted to US's power.

Stupid Deng betrayed communist bloc and colluded wt US to stop VN to kick US out of ASEAN, so now, all East Asia plus ASEAN still have to live under US's rule. Why smart leader like chairman Mao die so soon, why there r so many stupid & coward leaders in CN ???


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## mike2000 is back

somsak said:


> You needs to go technical details such as Swift before believing anything such a big conclusion as topic.
> You also need to have overall statistics before believing anything such a big conclusion as topic.
> May they just switch to other Russian banks.
> May be it is to switch to newly SWIFT system.
> One example does not give overall picture.



Again swift is controlled by the West based in our European capital . Another reason it's difficult to go against us, especially when you don't have alternatives /not as powerful .


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## somsak

mike2000 is back said:


> Again swift is controlled by the West based in our European capital . Another reason it's difficult to go against us, especially when you don't have alternatives /not as powerful .


What I mean was that, just because *one Russian bank* lost business with *some* Chinese customers does not equate to 
"China left Russian dry" As one bank does not equate to Russian whole economy and some Chinese customers do not equate to China.

In order to sample the whole trade relation between any two nations, one need macro-economic type of statistics. The total sums of loan provided by majority of banks in Russia, for example.

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## TaiShang

*USHasteningDollar'sDemisebyBullyingRussia,China-RonPaul

By bullying Russia and vexing China, the US is hastening the demise of the dollar's hegemony, Dr. Ron Paul underscores, adding that Moscow's patience is not infinite.*

The United States is desperately trying to maintain its role as a global hegemon in the unipolar world, *hoping that it will continue dictating foreign policy and shaping monetary system, while its "clients" will "dutifully carry out instructions,"* former Republican congressman and two-time US presidential candidate Ron Paul emphasizes.

"With the IMF's recent statement pledging its full and unconditional support to Ukraine, it has become even more clear that the IMF and other major multilateral institutions are not blindly technical organizations, but rather are totally subservient lackeys to the foreign policy agenda emanating from Washington," Dr. Ron Paul stressed.

However, although Washington has surrounded itself with its complaisant allies, the first cracks are beginning to appear in the present world order.

*"The existence of Russia and China is a stark reminder" of the fact that the world is not unipolar, and it irritates Washington a lot. The US leadership behaves "like a petulant child flying into a tantrum," when Russia steps in to protect its own national interests.*







Dragon Rising: China's Gold Will Break World's Dependence on US Dollar


Remarkably, the existence of a country that refuses to bow to Washington's demands is viewed by the US as an "unforgivable sin."

In order to restrain Moscow the Obama administration is toughening economic sanctions against Russia. Meanwhile Washington's Western allies have even gone so far as to freeze Russian state assets in their countries, provoking justified anger from the Russian government.

"For decades, the United States has benefited as the creator and defender of the world's reserve currency, the dollar. This has enabled Americans to live beyond their means as foreign goods are imported to the US while increasingly-worthless dollars are sent abroad. But is it any wonder after 70-plus years of a depreciating dollar that the rest of the world is rebelling against this massive transfer of wealth?" the former congressman asked.

Global Trade Rules Should Be Written by US, Not China – Obama

According to Ron Paul,* Moscow and Beijing pose a substantial threat to the dollar domination, since they have the opportunity and the motivation to establish "a gold-backed" monetary system, that would obviously undermine the dollar's positions.*

Russia's patience is not endless, Dr. Paul warns. By bullying Russia and vexing China Washington may cut its own throat, hastening the collapse of the present world order based on the Bretton Woods monetary system.

"The end result of this needless bullying by the United States will hasten the one thing Washington fears the most: a world monetary system in which the US has no say and the dollar is relegated to playing second fiddle," the former congressman warned.



Read more: US Hastening Dollar's Demise by Bullying Russia, China - Ron Paul / Sputnik International

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## mike2000 is back

NiceGuy said:


> Its just bcz CN dont have another smart leader wt iron-will like great chairman Mao who will give a full support to VN to kick the West out of ASEAN or at least sub-Mekong region , so now Asian ppl plus Russia have to be submitted to US's power.
> 
> Stupid Deng betrayed communist bloc and colluded wt US to stop VN to kick US out of ASEAN, so now, all East Asia plus ASEAN still have to live under US's rule. Why smart leader like chairman Mao die so soon, why there r so many stupid & coward leaders in CN ???


 Life is cruel my friend.  
Deng is the one that even made China the economic giant it is today. Had mao still be in control China will just be abigger version of North Korea albeit far more powerful, but not much of a world economic threat to us, more like a military regional threat. 



somsak said:


> What I mean was that, just because *one Russian bank* lost business with *some* Chinese customers does not equate to
> "China left Russian dry" As one bank does not equate to Russian whole economy and some Chinese customers do not equate to China.
> 
> In order to sample the whole trade relation between any two nations, one need macro-economic type of statistics. The total sums of loan provided by majority of banks in Russia, for example.



Well, there is just so much China can do to be honest, as i said the world is still dominated by the West by far. So why will some Chinese banks incur sanctions and consequently face fund shortages and being barred from doing business abroad because of Russia with whom China doesn't even trade that much relative to the U S /WEST (well apart from buying natural resources from Moscow. Lol) . Do you think Russia will do the same for China? They won't even care if China was sanctioned at all. Lol they will also carry on their business with us like nothing happened.  so you don't have to cry for your Russian patron bro.

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## BuddhaPalm

Fake news with monkeys jumping up and down. Only TTP lovers want to leave Russia high and dry.

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## IR-TR

utp45 said:


> Talking about being left high and dry，who is coming to rescue Vietnam when a future war with China breaks out？



The Vietcong Better eat some more pho.

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## NiceGuy

mike2000 is back said:


> Life is cruel my friend.
> Deng is the one that even made China the economic giant it is today. Had mao still be in control China will just be abigger version of North Korea albeit far more powerful, but not much of a world economic threat to us, more like a military regional threat.


Without Deng , CN will still be the economic giant when JP-US investors pour a huge investment in CN after CN agree to let US rule TW and JP rule Senkaku isl in 1979. US can even made a desert like Las Vegas to become the money machine, so making CN rich is just a piece of cake (of course, US raise CN up and they can take CN down, too).

Big bad but coward CN is a nasty obstacle of the raise of Asia. Their army PLA suck , can not fight against mighty USA, but it (CN) also wont let other Asian nations who can defeat USA like VN to stand up and kick US out.

God is so unfair to Asian people when creating a big but coward CN between Russia and ASEAN region, specially so unfair to a potential nation like VN coz we cant get support directly from big bro Russia to unify at least sub-Mekong region

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## mike2000 is back

BuddhaPalm said:


> Fake news with monkeys jumping up and down. Only TTP lovers want to leave Russia high and dry.



Not fake, just a reality you don't want to agree with. You know sometimes each country has to make compromises with other bigger powers to secure it's interests /trade more for it's own personal benefit, just ask yourself why Russia refused to deliver S-300 missiles to Iran even though Tehran head already signed contract with Russia and venturing paid billions to Moscow. Why did they not go through with the contact?l  I'm sure you know why. 



NiceGuy said:


> Without Deng , CN will still be the economic giant when JP-US investors pour a huge investment in CN after CN agree to let US rule TW and JP rule Senkaku isl in 1979. US can even made a desert like Las Vegas to become the money machine, so making CN rich is just a piece of cake (of course, US raise CN up and they can take CN down, too).
> 
> Big bad but coward CN is a nasty obstacle of the raise of Asia. Their army PLA suck , can not fight against mighty USA, but it (CN) also wont let other Asian nations who can defeat USA like VN to stand up and kick US out.
> 
> God is so unfair to Asian people when creating a big but coward CN between Russia and ASEAN region, specially so unfair to a potential nation like VN coz we cant get support directly from big bro Russia to unify at least sub-Mekong region



You make me laugh bro. 

To be honest, its quite bad for the West /US that mao died in the 70s. It would have been good if it had lived at lest 30 more years, that way China will still be isolated by it's disillusional commie ideology, backward and dirt poor. Since in some way, it would have been good for us(no real credible global long term threat. ). Just like its good for Japan if North Korea remains a pariah isolated dirt poor dictatorship,.


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## birju

The lives of Chinese Maoists will not be rescued by Russia as they were hoping when revolution comes to China. The world has adequate experience to know that the Chinese Maoists are ungrateful backstabbers and without any ethics.

The Chinese Maoists will spend billions of dollars to erect useless monuments in China to justify their past and present actions but when it comes to buying from Russia, they behave like thieves and beggars. The Chinese Maoists are not hard bargainers.... they are heinous bargainers as shown by Chinese dillydallying to buy just 24 Su-35 from Russia and the ridiculous price offer made for Il-76 in 2005.

Now everybody in the world knows the heinous, brutalized and forever miserable face of Chinese Maoists which no amount of plastic smile can hide.

The Chinese on this forum will never tell the truth as they will be instantly brutalized ... yes instantly..... by their Maoist masters. who are standing just behind their backs as they type comments on this site.

The Chinese Maoists will soon face well deserved justice as the revolution is coming to China. and ranting lies on internet will not save Chinese Maoists. It will only exacerbate their crimes.

BOTTOMLINE: Russia will not shelter Chinese Maoists when revolution comes to China.

This factual comment will burn every brutalized but paid Chinese poster guy on this site. The Chinese poster guys on the internet cannot even negotiate what they are paid.


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## NiceGuy

mike2000 is back said:


> Not fake, just a reality you don't want to agree with. You know sometimes each country has to make compromises with other bigger powers to secure it's interests /trade more for it's own personal benefit, just ask yourself why Russia refused to deliver S-300 missiles to Iran even though Tehran head already signed contract with Russia and venturing paid billions to Moscow. Why did they not go through with the contact?l  I'm sure you know why.


As I know, Russia is going to sell S-300 to Iran again 


> You make me laugh bro.
> 
> To be honest, its quite bad for the West /US that mao died in the70s. It would. Have been good if it had lived at lest 30 more years, that way China will still be isolated by it's desulotional commie ideology and dirt poor. Sonce in some waysit would have been good for ua(since it means no real credible threat. ). Just like its god for Japan if North Korea remains a pariah isolated dirt poor dictatorship,.


CN during Mao perior was a wild tiger, CN today is just a fat-coward tiger lying on the cage of USA, and which one is more dangerous ??


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## Jlaw

somsak said:


> You needs to go technical details such as Swift before believing anything such a big conclusion as topic.
> You also need to have overall statistics before believing anything such a big conclusion as topic.
> May they just switch to other Russian banks.
> May be it is to switch to newly SWIFT system.
> One example does not give overall picture.


Vietnamese do not understand international banking rules. The SWIFT system is a US system so until Ru and China set up their version of SWIFT, Chinese banks will not risk too much exposure to Russian assets.

Correct that one article from the internet does not tell the whole picture. I give props to the Vietnamese pdf members for digging up anything anti-China. It's too easy for me to find shit news about Vietnam

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

NiceGuy said:


> Cn is a big country, but why always so hard for u guys to stand up and fight against stronger enemy ?? why always bully the weaker but bowing down to the stronger ??
> 
> I also give up to the 'spiritual victory' of Ah Q, another bad & poignant ending waiting for u again



Read a bit of history instead of simply writing nonsense.

You do know that China fought the U.S.A and entire U.N in Korea right?

Then a few decades later fought the Soviet Union during the Sino Soviet split.

How many countries do you know fought the combined forces of the U.N and got a stalemate?



birju said:


> The lives of Chinese Maoists will not be rescued by Russia as they were hoping when revolution comes to China. The world has adequate experience to know that the Chinese Maoists are ungrateful backstabbers and without any ethics.
> 
> The Chinese Maoists will spend billions of dollars to erect useless monuments in China to justify their past and present actions but when it comes to buying from Russia, they behave like thieves and beggars. The Chinese Maoists are not hard bargainers.... they are heinous bargainers as shown by Chinese dillydallying to buy just 24 Su-35 from Russia and the ridiculous price offer made for Il-76 in 2005.
> 
> Now everybody in the world knows the heinous, brutalized and forever miserable face of Chinese Maoists which no amount of plastic smile can hide.
> 
> The Chinese on this forum will never tell the truth as they will be instantly brutalized ... yes instantly..... by their Maoist masters. who are standing just behind their backs as they type comments on this site.
> 
> The Chinese Maoists will soon face well deserved justice as the revolution is coming to China. and ranting lies on internet will not save Chinese Maoists. It will only exacerbate their crimes.
> 
> BOTTOMLINE: Russia will not shelter Chinese Maoists when revolution comes to China.
> 
> This factual comment will burn every brutalized but paid Chinese poster guy on this site. The Chinese poster guys on the internet cannot even negotiate what they are paid.



HA

When the balance of power was in favour of the Soviets, Russian arrogance knew no bounds. Now Russia has fallen on hard times and continues to fall.

You act like China needs shelter from Russia and not the other way around.

Just look at the Russian victory day celebrations - had the Chinese not attended, Russia is left with a gaggle of small time nations and would have lost face in hosting such a large spectacle.

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## NiceGuy

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Read a bit of history instead of simply writing nonsense.
> 
> You do know that China fought the U.S.A and entire U.N in Korea right?
> 
> Then a few decades later fought the Soviet Union during the Sino Soviet split.
> 
> How many countries do you know fought the combined forces of the U.N and got a stalemate?


those wars were during Mao era. When Mao died, CN bowed down to US , accepted its rule over TW and get US's support to attack its communist bro VN.

Your PLA suck, its too coward to fight wt USA, so why dont u let VN army to kick US out of Asia or at least our of sub-Mekong region to weaken US's power ??

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## Hamartia Antidote

NiceGuy said:


> In a report by Wopular, the second largest lender in Russia, VTB Bank, said that majority of Chinese banks have ceased transacting with them following EU-US sanctions on Russia.
> 
> Yuri Soloviev, First Deputy Chairman of VTB Bank said that Chinese banks were not financing Russian trade, at least not through them. They also do not carry out interbank transactions and have considerably restricted their participation in Russia's trade deals.
> 
> It seemed that Chinese banks don't want to be deeply involved with the disagreement between western nations and Russia with regards to Russia's war in Crimea. After all, China has more business with the U.S. and Europe than with Russia.



Let me put on my @senheiser hat: "China is just another *vassal state* of the US."

195 countries on this planet.

Old list:
Vassal states of the US: 193
Non-vassal states: 2 (Russia, China)

new list:
Vassal states of the US: 194
Non-vassal states: 1 (Russia)

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## NiceGuy

Jlaw said:


> Vietnamese do not understand international banking rules. The SWIFT system is a US system so until Ru and China set up their version of SWIFT, Chinese banks will not risk too much exposure to Russian assets.
> 
> Correct that one article from the internet does not tell the whole picture. I give props to the Vietnamese pdf members for digging up anything anti-China. It's too easy for me to find shit news about Vietnam


So, U think that VTB Bank First Deputy Chairman Yuri Soloviev also does not understand international banking rules
--------------------------

Most Chinese banks are not conducting any interbank operations with Russian banks and have considerably decreased their participation in foreign trade deals after Western sanctions were imposed, VTB Bank First Deputy Chairman Yuri Soloviev said Tuesday.

“China’s ambiguous position regarding Russian banks in the wake of US and EU sanctions is a key issue holding back progress toward greater bilateral cooperation,” Soloviev said in an opinion piece in the FinanceAsia news agency published Tuesday.



Read more: Chinese Banks Curtailing Transactions With Russia Over Western Sanctions / Sputnik India English - News, Opinion, Radio


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

NiceGuy said:


> those wars were during Mao era. When Mao died, CN bowed down to US , accepted its rule over TW and get US's support to attack its communist bro VN.
> 
> Your PLA suck, its too coward to fight wt USA, so why dont u let VN army to kick US out of Asia or at least our of sub-Mekong region to weaken US's power ??



China invaded Vietnam in 1979 because you vicious Viets cant stop fighting and decided to attack Cambodia. Remember the Kingdom of Cham? No? Its because you wiped them out so thoroughly that their refugees ended up in Hainan.

In Asia, China is the only one standing up to the U.S. When Ho Chi Min and recently Nguyen Giap died, your countrymen have not produced any worthy men. Just a gaggle of third rate nobodies.

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## Jlaw

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> China invaded Vietnam in 1979 because you vicious Viets cant stop fighting and decided to attack Cambodia. Remember the Kingdom of Cham? No? Its because you wiped them out so thoroughly that their refugees ended up in Hainan.
> 
> In Asia, China is the only one standing up to the U.S. When Ho Chi Min and recently Nguyen Giap died, your countrymen have not produced any worthy men. Just a gaggle of third rate nobodies.


Giap wasn't that great. His tactic was relying on China-Russia and sending many Viets to their early grave.

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## NiceGuy

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> China invaded Vietnam in 1979 because you vicious Viets cant stop fighting and decided to attack Cambodia. Remember the Kingdom of Cham? No? Its because you wiped them out so thoroughly that their refugees ended up in Hainan.
> 
> In Asia, China is the only one standing up to the U.S. When Ho Chi Min and recently Nguyen Giap died, your countrymen have not produced any worthy men. Just a gaggle of third rate nobodies.


CNese can keep lying that they still standing up to the U.S after Mao died, but who gonna truth u ?? Russia dont-VN dont- Indian dont. Russia is accusing CN for kissing the West's azz and leave its friend Russia high and dry now.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Jlaw said:


> Giap wasn't that great. His tactic was relying on China-Russia and sending many Viets to their early grave.



Giap was fortunate to learn from the Chinese experience in Korea. Chinese advisers as well as captured American artillery pieces were instrumental in dislodging the French from Dien Bien Phu.

Giap was a fighter. Todays Viets are nothing.

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## NiceGuy

Jlaw said:


> Giap wasn't that great. His tactic was relying on China-Russia and sending many Viets to their early grave.


At least he help VN to unify the nation... while 'great ' CN generals still cant help CN to unify small TW .

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

NiceGuy said:


> CNese can keep lying that they still standing up to the U.S after Mao died, but who gonna truth u ?? Russia dont-VN dont- Indian dont. Russia is accusing CN for kissing the West's azz and leave its friend Russia high and dry now.



Ok, only Vietnam is standing up to the U.S.

Asia should send our Vietnamese champion monkey fighter to cleanse the land of Americans.

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## Jlaw

NiceGuy said:


> At least he help VN to unify the nation... while 'great ' CN generals still cant help CN to unify small TW .


thank you for agreeing with me that Giap wasn't that great and sent thousands of Viet boys to their early grave.


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## Bobby

China is nobody's friend


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## Echo_419

mike2000 is back said:


>


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## grand

not china is unwilling to help. russia is also worrying about china controlling the russian economy.

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## Tom99

Some people/countries are just so jealous of the positive friendship and relationship between Russia and China that they would write and make up anything trying to drive a wedge between Russia and China.

It is a simple strategy: Divide and Conquer. 

Fortunately, the leadership in Russia and China are pragmatic and smart enough to see through these thinly veiled manipulation.

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## Hasbara Buster

BuddhaPalm said:


> Fake news with monkeys jumping up and down. Only TTP lovers want to leave Russia high and dry.




China cannot leave Russia "high and dry" because Russia is a key strategic partner of China for the New Silk Road, the Eurasian Landbridge and other major long-term Eurasian integration and development projects. China without Russia or vice versa at this stage of history cannot withstand US pressures alone. More importantly, Eurasia cannot be integrated without Russia or China. Bottom line; China and Russia are long-term strategic partners that will transform and integrate Eurasia as a whole which will end American hegemony in the not-so-distant future.

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## TaiShang

*China’s Xinjiang-Russia trade rose 374% in 2014 *
*February 14, 2015*







Resource-rich Xinjiang remains a critical part of China’s economic strategy [Xinhua]

Trade between China’s restive far-western Xinjiang and Russia grew more than threefold last year amid a slowdown in the region’s foreign trade due to falling commodity prices, China’s official customs statistics body said on Saturday.


Resource-rich Xinjiang’s trade with Russia rose a whopping 374 per cent year on year in 2014 to $2.15 billion, compared with a 0.4-per cent rise in total Sino-Russian foreign trade to $27.67 billion during the same period.

***

*BRICS consider alternative SWIFT funds transfer system*
By Kristoff Saunders on June 17, 2015

– Russian Deputy Foreign Minister says BRICS countries have led off consultations on an alternative to the global SWIFT system

BRICS countries – Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa are considering an alternative to the global SWIFT funds transfer system, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday.

***

Russia has become China's # 1 crude oil supplier. No longer the Saudis.

And this will disallow the American oil cartel to manipulate and blackmail China in the global oil supply market.

Xi Jinping's OBOR (One Belt, One Road) vision is now being executed; BRICS, SCA, the planned Asian Economic Free Trade Zone, and AIIB, are all revving up their engines towards a reconfiguration of a new world order centered on Eurasia.

Like it or not, there will be laggards. There will be saboteurs. There will be those who oppose China's rise and re-emergence in the world stage as a global power.

The USers may not like it. But what can they do? They have lost the economic game.

Russia just one-upped the Saudis in China - Yahoo Finance

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## Kyle Sun

Does anyone know the meaning of " stand up to USA" ?

Shot americans in head is Standing up to usa ????


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## JSCh

Russia overtakes Saudi Arabia as largest supplier of oil to China | Business | The Guardian
_Moscow has had to seek alternative markets following sanctions over Ukraine crisis – but strengthening ties with Beijing has been going on for a while _
*Ami Sedghi*
Wednesday 24 June 2015 15.17 BST Last modified on Wednesday 24 June 2015 16.03 BST 

Russia has overtaken Saudi Arabia as the largest supplier of oil to China for the first time, sending almost 930,000 barrels a day last month – up 21% on April.

China imported 3.92m tonnes of crude oil from Russia in May. In comparison, oil imports from Angola and Saudia Arabia totalled 3.26m tonnes and 3.05m tonnes respectively.

— Neil Hume (@humenm) June 23, 2015
Presenting some granular China oil import data, via Reuters. Saudi Arabia and Russia having a good year pic.twitter.com/yxGsVjAqCo​
Russian exports to China have more than doubled since 2010, according to analysis by the Financial Times.

As western sanctions over the Ukraine crisis started to bite, Moscow has had to seek alternative markets and friends. It has been, understandably, keen to strengthen ties with Beijing.

*Russia steps up relations with China *
The fact that Russia now accepts yuan for oil payments (Saudi Arabia doesn’t) undoubtedly also helped it top the oil supplier ranking.

The rouble-yuan currency pair reached record highs in trading volumes last summer as Russian companies and banks, traditionally dependent on dollar-denominated syndicated loans, looked to China.

In 2013, Russia’s largest oil producer, Rosneft,signed an $85bn deal with China’s Sinopec to deliver 100m tonnes of crude over 10 years.

On top of that, Rosneft struck a $270bn deal to double oil supplies to China. Last year, a 30-year deal was signed by the state-owned gas company Gazprom worth $400bn to deliver gas to China.

Last year, oil prices and the rouble both fell to five-year lows. The slump was bad news for Russia’s economy, which is strongly dependent on oil, and very sensitive to price changes. Analysts warned that plummeting crude prices could send the economy into a recession. Oil and gas make up around half of government income, and more than 60% of Russia’s exports.

Calculations at the time shows Russia needs an oil price of $105 a barrel for its budget to break-even; the country loses about $12bn-$14bn a year in revenue for every $10 decrease in the barrel price.

China is not the only way Russia has been attempting to diversify economically. Last year its central bank went on a massive gold buying spree, and earlier this year it reduced the dollar’s share in its international reserves below that of the euro for the first time since 2008.

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## Hyperion

Things are moving quietly and steadily in the right direction...... China needs to further lessen it's dependence on Saudi oil......... soon, Saudi will be kosher for a giant shakeup!

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## Beidou2020

China should stop buying oil from that repulsive terrorist sponsoring Saudi regime.

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## TaiShang

*China News Service, Russia Today sign deal in St. Petersburg*
2015-06-26 





China News Service (CNS) President Zhang Xinxin (L, 1st)and Dmitry Kiselev(R, 1st), head of the Russia Today international news agency, sign a cooperation deal on the sidelines of the China-Russia Media Forum in St Petersburg on Thursday. (Photo/China News Service)






China News Service (CNS) President Zhang Xinxin (L, fornt) and Dmitry Kiselev (R, front), head of the Russia Today international news agency, sign a cooperation deal on the sidelines of the China-Russia Media Forum in St Petersburg on Thursday. (Photo/China News Service)


(ECNS) – China News Service (CNS) President Zhang Xinxin and Dmitry Kiselev, head of the Russia Today international news agency, signed a cooperation deal on the sidelines of the China-Russia Media Forum in St. Petersburg on Thursday.

*According to the agreement, the two sides will cooperate in news exchange, joint interviews and co-organization of news events.*

CNS is one of the two news agencies on the Chinese mainland. Through text, photography, features, websites, periodicals, newswires and video, CNS provides news to overseas Chinese people across the world, including Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan. Its user network covers most of the Chinese-language media in the world.

The state-run Russia Today news agency is the result of a merger and restructure of the former RIA Novosti news agency and The Voice of Russia, and is one of the largest media conglomerates in Russia. With the task of publicizing Russia's state policies and social life, it offers multilingual news services to the world.

Liu Qibao, head of the Publicity Department of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, and Alexi Gromov, first deputy head of the Presidential Administration of Russia, witnessed signings of a series of cooperation deals which also include other Chinese and Russian media organizations.

*China Radio International, the China Foreign Languages Publishing Administration, and the China National Publications Import & Export (Group) Corps all signed deals with their Russian counterparts to share resources.*

The recent meeting between Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin, along with a joint announcement that 2016-2017 will be a media exchange year, has drawn wide attention.

Experts say the forum in St Petersburg signals that cooperation between Chinese and Russian media organizations will reach a new peak.

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## Kyle Sun

where is the number 47?


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## Hindustani78

Updated: June 30, 2015 13:06 IST 
China firms up energy ties with Russia, starts work on Power of Siberia pipeline - The Hindu
Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and Chinese Ambassador to Russia Li Hui attend a video conference, dedicated to the start of the construction of the Chinese section of the Power of Siberia gas pipeline, in Moscow on Monday.





*To pump 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas from Russia’s far-east to Shanghai*
China has started construction of the 3,968-km-long gas pipeline to pump 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas from Russia’s far-east to Shanghai as it firmed up energy cooperation with Moscow, which is reeling under U.S. and EU sanctions over the Ukraine crisis.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev joined Chinese Vice-Premier Zhang Gaoli in a televised inauguration ceremony that was held simultaneously in Beijing, Moscow and the border city of Heihe in northeast China on Monday.

*To be operational in 2018*
Mr. Zhang said the Chinese side was ready to work with the Russian side to ensure that the pipeline was completed and put into operation in 2018.

The pipeline, extending from gas fields in Russia’s Far East to Shanghai, is designed to transport 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas from Russia to China every year.

*Largest such project*
In a speech at the ceremony, Mr. Zhang said the East Route gas pipeline is the largest China-Russia cooperative project conducive to diversifying energy strategy and guaranteeing the energy security of both countries.

In last September, construction started on the Russian section of the East Route pipeline, also known in Russia as the Power of Siberia pipeline.

*‘Advance long-term cooperation’*
Mr. Zhang said the two sides should advance long-term cooperation on oil, natural gas pipelines, gas development and integration of coal mining, power generation and transmission.

He said the two sides should expand all-round cooperation in investment, manufacturing capacity, finance, high-speed rail, agriculture and development of Far-East region as Beijing looked to advance its ties with Moscow.

Mr. Zhang said the two sides should also integrate China’s Silk Road Economic Belt initiative with development of the Russia-led Eurasia Economic Union in a bid to achieve more fruits in bilateral cooperation for the benefit of the two peoples, state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

*‘One of the largest energy projects’*
Mr. Medvedev said through a teleconference that the Russia- China East Route natural gas pipeline was one of the world’s largest energy projects and a symbol of the high level of the comprehensive strategic cooperative partnership between the two countries. He said the gas pipeline would help propel economic and social development and lift people’s living standards in regions along its route in the two countries.

He said the Russian side was ready to further expand all-dimensional cooperation with China so as to promote the common development and prosperity of the two countries.


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## TaiShang

*Russia and China pose largest security threats, says US military report | US news | The Guardian*


‘Low but growing’ chance of war with major power, report says
Iran and North Korea also pose ‘serious security concerns’
_Wednesday 1 July 2015_

America’s new military strategy singles out states like China and Russia as aggressive and threatening to US security interests, while warning of growing technological challenges and worsening global stability.

A somber report released Wednesday by General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, warns of a “low but growing” probability of the US fighting a war with a major power, with “immense” consequences.

Russia has “repeatedly demonstrated that it does not respect the sovereignty of its neighbors and it is willing to use force to achieve its goals”, the 2015 National Military Strategy says.

“Russia’s military actions are undermining regional security directly and through proxy forces.”

It points to Russian troop presence in the Ukraine conflict, though Moscow denies it has deployed its military in eastern Ukraine to bolster a separatist insurgency.

And the report expresses concern about states developing advanced technological capabilities that are causing the US military to lose its edge in that field.

“When applied to military systems, this diffusion of technology is challenging competitive advantages long held by the United States such as early warning and precision strike,” the paper says.

In addition to China and Russia, the paper also includes Iran and North Korea – highlighting their nuclear and ballistic missile capabilities – in a list of countries that pose “serious security concerns” to America and its allies.

“Since the last national military strategy was published four years ago, global disorder has trended upward while some of our comparative advantages have begun to erode,” Dempsey told reporters.

The 2011 report spoke little of Russia.

“China’s actions are adding tension to the Asia-Pacific region,” the document states, in reference to China’s land reclamation efforts to build islands in the contested South China sea to boost its military and civilian presence.

America’s enormous military has an annual budget of about $600bn, dwarfing that of any other nation.

And faced with non-state adversaries like the self-proclaimed Islamic State group that has seized significant portions of Iraq and Syria, Dempsey warned of long and complex fights ahead.

“Future conflicts will come more rapidly, last longer, and take place on a much more technically challenging battlefield,” he wrote in the foreword to the report.

Violent extremist groups “pose an immediate threat to transregional security by coupling readily available technologies with extremist ideologies”, the report states.

***

The comments under the article is hilarious and poignant. People are waking up to truth.

Russia and China pose largest security threats, says US military report | US news | The Guardian

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## xunzi

We believe we are the MOST PEACEFUL loving country in this universe given our power disparity vs most countries. Give me another big country with this kind of power and national strength, and yet so peaceful? Had we have the mindset like our American friend or our mindset back in the 1950-1970s, we were be fighting war everywhere in the world or support regime change to our liking because unlike India or other wannabe power, we do possess the economic strength and military might to actually put into work today.

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## 21 Dec 2012

xunzi said:


> We believe we are the MOST PEACEFUL loving country in this universe


Yes. *You* believe


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## xunzi

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Yes. You believe


Name me another country with our national strength and military industrial complex and yet we did not involve in any fight around the world?

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## 21 Dec 2012

xunzi said:


> Name me another country with our national strength and military industrial complex and yet we did not involve in any fight around the world?


Both US and Russia have greater national strength than China. As for your peacefulness, I'm sure your neighbours especially in SCS agree



xunzi said:


> yet we did not involve in any fight around the world?


You cannot engage in fight around the world. Chinese influence is limited to Pak and NK


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## TaiShang

xunzi said:


> We believe we are the MOST PEACEFUL loving country in this universe given our power disparity vs most countries. Give me another big country with this kind of power and national strength, and yet so peaceful? Had we have the mindset like our American friend or our mindset back in the 1950-1970s, we were be fighting war everywhere in the world or support regime change to our liking because unlike India or other wannabe power, we do possess the economic strength and military might to actually put into work today.



China is a developmentalist state. Other countries that realize this are jumping overboard not to be left behind. Certain country is just jealous but their government is so inefficient. We can do nothing about this.

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## BigDaddyWatch

xunzi said:


> We believe we are the MOST PEACEFUL loving country in this universe given our power disparity vs most countries. Give me another big country with this kind of power and national strength, and yet so peaceful? Had we have the mindset like our American friend or our mindset back in the 1950-1970s, we were be fighting war everywhere in the world or support regime change to our liking because unlike India or other wannabe power, we do possess the economic strength and military might to actually put into work today.


I for one don't believe we are the most peaceful country in the universe. We are certainly more peaceful than other great powers in the world. But we have conflicts and flaws of our own too.


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## TaiShang

BigDaddyWatch said:


> I for one don't believe we are the most peaceful country in the universe. We are certainly more peaceful than other great powers in the world. But we have conflicts and flaws of our own too.



Peaceful, maybe, in the sense that China is more willing than than others to cooperate, share, and integrate.

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## xunzi

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Both US and Russia have greater national strength than China. As for your peacefulness, I'm sure your neighbours especially in SCS agree
> 
> 
> You cannot engage in fight around the world. Chinese influence is limited to Pak and NK


USA does. Russia is debatable. Our military strength is closer to them than their economic strength is closer to us. But you gave two bad examples, my lovely friend. USA and Russia fought war and/or support regime throughout the world through supply of weapons. They are not what we consider peaceful country mingling in their own business. They are an aggressive interventionist. 

We cannot engage in fight around the world because we chose to be peaceful and not try to use our economic power to force others to give up their military base abroad. It is also worth noting that we can support any regime to remain in power.



BigDaddyWatch said:


> I for one don't believe we are the most peaceful country in the universe. We are certainly more peaceful than other great powers in the world. But we have conflicts and flaws of our own too.


I said as a great power, we are the most peaceful. A true statement. I don't remember another great power rising that didn't cause war and going hard after their own interest. In fact, we may be the only great power that didn't fought hard to support our national interest. All countries have conflicts and flaws, yet we remain open for talks rather than going to war to settle issue.

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## TaiShang

*Why Russia and China Must Expand Their Influence in the Balkans and Indochina*

It’s the only way to escape encirclement being attempted by the US - most recently by co-opting Ukraine and Myanmar

Andrew Korybko 
Fri, Jun 26 | 




US seems on track to steal previously vilified Myanmar away from China
The US has been tightening its containment noose around Eurasia’s multipolar anchors over the past few years, having notably succeeded in wooing Myanmar away from China in 2011 and transforming Ukraine into a geopolitical enemy of Russia in 2014.

*In the face of these American asymmetrical advances, Russia and China have opted to make game-changing peninsular pivots as a means of escaping the strategic traps being set, with Moscow moving to the Balkans and Beijing being beckoned towards Indochina.* Their effort to sidestep the containment wall being built around them places both theaters, the Balkans and Indochina, front and center in the US’ upcoming destabilization campaigns.

This article examines the historical-strategic lead-up to the present situation and explains the necessity of Russia and China’s respective peninsular pivots.

*American Advances*

The US has been encircling Russia and China since the first days of the Cold War, and the 1990s onward represented a hyper application of this process. The pursuit of unabated NATO expansion in Eastern Europe alongside the creation and strengthening of strategic economic partnerships with the Asia-Pacific states set the stage for the forthcoming American containment policy, which wouldn’t be formally activated until the 2010s.

In the context of this article, it’s argued that the two most important elements of this two-pronged Eurasian approach are Ukraine and Myanmar, the pro-Western flipping of which inflicted immense harm on Russian and Chinese strategic security and ushered in the necessary peninsular pivots that will be explored later on.

*Ukraine:*

*The First Crisis*

It’s common knowledge how EuroMaidan set in motion a cascading wave of events that led to the New Cold War, but what’s necessary to highlight in this piece is the effect it had on Russian strategic security, specifically in the energy realm. Ukraine constitutes the primary bottleneck for Russian gas exports to Europe, and consequently, it’s the gatekeeper for the expression of Moscow’s soft power influence attached to this resource.

The earlier energy crisis that the pro-Western Orange government provoked in 2006 proved that the country’s American patron wanted to weaponize its geostrategic location in order to endanger this, and in some ways, they succeeded.

The EU, under the US’ guiding influence, began seriously discussing non-Russian energy alternatives such as the Southern Gas Corridor, and it enacted discriminatory legislation like the Third Energy Package to frustrate existing and future Russian interests. The cause and effect chain that resulted from the 2006 gas crisis strongly implies that it was staged to justify the EU in taking these premeditated anti-Russian steps, which incidentally worked out to America’s grand strategic benefit by weakening Russian influence in Europe and keeping the two actors apart (per the Brzezinski Doctrine outlined in The Grand Chessboard).

*The Follow-Up*

Still, there wasn’t an outright rift between the two until the US instigated another crisis in Ukraine, this time with EuroMaidan. The end result, as is known, is that Russia and the American-controlled EU are in the midst of a New Cold War, and that energy resources play a strong factor in this competition.

Russia cannot depend on a hostile Ukrainian government to securely guarantee its energy transit to the EU, and Brussels is signaling that it’s interested in diversifying its supply as much as possible. However, the EU cannot make this shift overnight, and its strategy is dependent on a long-term vision that leaves its dependence on Russian supplies in place for the foreseeable future.

So with Russia and the EU both in need of the other (despite the heated rhetoric between them), it’s clear that Ukraine’s radical pro-Western government has essentially taken the continent hostage by hijacking the umbilical cord of energy that has strategically linked Moscow and Brussels.

The Russian establishment doesn’t appear too optimistic that the ‘hostage situation’ will be rectified in the near future, and understanding the overwhelming strategic threat to its interests by maintaining energy supplies through a hostile Ukraine, it announced that all energy transit through its territory would stop by 2019 and be replaced by the forthcoming Turkish Stream project, itself a replacement for South Stream.

*Loose Threads*

The US hasn’t been able to irreparably separate the EU and Russia because, as was underlined, they both need one another as energy partners. Brussels needs Russian gas to power its industry and heat its citizens’ homes, while Moscow needs the revenue stream and influence that such an arrangement provides.

The complicating factor is obviously Ukraine, which has made it impossible for affairs between both parties to continue as normal, but it hasn’t diminished the demand of either party to indefinitely prolong their business partnership.

The announcement that transit through Ukraine would be discontinued in 2019 is a gamble for all the parties involved. For one, Russia is betting that Ukraine’s days of stability are long behind it, and that it can no longer depend on the country as a reliable passive partner.

Additionally, Moscow is betting that it will finish constructing the Turkish Stream pipeline (and its Balkan Stream extension to Hungary) by the time it stops sending gas through Ukraine, and that the US won’t be successful in obstructing it.

Russia believes that the EU has a pivotal interest in seeing these pipeline plans reach fruition because it simply can’t do without Russian gas, no matter its on-the-books discriminatory legislation or anti-Russian rhetoric. Thus, this is also a gamble for Brussels, since it won’t have any realistic alternative to Russian supplies if the Turkish and Balkan Streams are scuttled.

The US is faced with its own gamble too, since it needs both to dupe the EU elite into believing that a non-Russian energy alternative exists, as well as simultaneously stop the new pipeline projects.

All the while, it still has to ensure that Kiev remains under its control well past 2019, so that there won’t be any talk of continuing shipment through its territory even after the deadline is passed (in the event that the two Streams fail). Thus, the US must juggle heavy propaganda, covert destabilizations, and regime reinforcement in order to successfully contain Russia, envelop Europe, and maintain its unipolar dominance in Western Eurasia.

If it can tie together these loose ends, then Russia would be strategically constricted in its future activity, yet if Russia can tie together its own loose ends of building the two Streams on time, then it can pull off a strategic breakout that would change the entire dynamic of the New Cold War.


*Myanmar:*

*Thorns In Each Other’s Side*

Myanmar’s internal contradictions and decades-long civil war have always been a thorn in the side of its stability, and its resultant destabilization has been a thorn in the side of China’s, too. As an overly brief summary, Myanmar is plagued by a group of significant ethnic-affiliated rebel groups located along its periphery that have been fighting against the central government for independence.

The low-land authorities have had difficulty entrenching their influence in the highland rebel regions, and the rebels haven’t ever been able to fully kick the government out of their territories, thus resulting in the decades-long strategic stalemate.

The instability in Myanmar has always had the threat of spilling over into China, and there was also a time during the Cold War when Beijing didn’t want the central government to come out on top in the conflict. China had supported some of the rebel movements as a means of spreading Maoism into Myanmar (at the time still called Burma), with the end goal being that an ideologically friendly and politically dependable neighbor would emerge along its pivotal southern border.

Until that could be the case, China was content with having some of the peripheral rebels serve as de-facto ‘internal buffers’ within Myanmar to separate it from the central government as a type of geopolitical ‘insurance’ in case the country was ever used as a launching pad for anti-Chinese activity (as it feared a US- and UN-dominated unified Korea could have been prior to its 300,000-man conventional intervention there).

*An Ocean View*

China’s calculations towards Myanmar changed in 1988 after the latter came under harsh Western criticism and sanctions for its supposed ‘anti-democratic’ actions. Beijing saw a window of opportunity in co-opting the country as a strategic ally, seeing as how Myanmar’s government literally had barely any other options available.

Not only that, but China has always been a natural partner for Myanmar owing simply to geopolitical considerations, and it was only ideological considerations and Cold War unease (which was entering into its twilight years) that kept the two apart for so long.

The West’s rejection of Myanmar inadvertently threw it into the arms of China (much as the current policy against Russia is doing as well), and this afforded Beijing the opportunity to create a strategic corridor to the Indian Ocean. Such a route has always been in its prime interests since China’s economy and energy imports are exceptionally vulnerable to an American blockade of the Strait of Malacca chokehold, thus necessitating the search for alternative routes in order to safeguard its sovereign interests.

China’s grand vision towards Myanmar thus switched from having a fraternal Maoist neighbor to having a prized strategic partner instead, regardless of ideological affiliation, and this flexibility thus gave great prospects to Chinese-Myanmar bilateral relations.

*Blocking The Seaside Path*

The honeymoon wasn’t to last, however, since a confluence of factors came into play in influencing Myanmar’s clumsy strategic pivot away from China and back towards the West. For starters, the West quickly caught on to China’s plans, and the US in particular wanted to make sure that China remained dependent on maritime routes controlled by its navy.

At the same time, a suitable pretext and marketable self-interest needed to be concocted to justify this pivot, and Myanmar’s lurch towards Western-style democracy as a means of alleviating Chinese overdependence provided a handy explanation.

The reason that Myanmar embarked on this process in the first place is that the Chinese-Myanmar relationship wasn’t all that it was cracked up to be, and the latter was getting the short end of the stick for at least the past decade.

Be it out of Chinese political oversight and/or resource overreach, the prevailing mood in Myanmar was that the country was being exploited by its northern neighbor and receiving barely anything in return. The tipping point appears to have been the Myitsone Dam, a Chinese-financed project that would have flooded an area of the size of Singapore in order to export electricity to China.

The government’s symbolic suspension of this project indicated that China’s earlier fears of its ally’s political pivot (speculated upon as the country ‘transitioned to democracy’ with the 2010 general election) turned out to be quite prescient.

*Making The Best Of A Bad Deal*

While Myanmar’s geopolitical affiliation is arguably shifting, China’s geopolitical interests remain constant. Beijing still needs to acquire a non-Malacca outlet to the sea, but just as Russia cannot depend on Ukraine to guarantee safe gas transit, no longer can China depend on Myanmar to function as a stable maritime outlet (be it for resources or products).

That isn’t to say that strategic cooperation between the two is nonexistent, as two important oil and gas pipelines currently transit the country, but that Myanmar made a bad deal by moving towards the West and is now reaping the destabilizing consequences.

Since China’s interests are so heavily tied in with Myanmar’s stability, it too is falling victim to the West’s maneuvers against Naypyidaw, and it needs a stable backup plan in case the situation in the country becomes unmanageable (as it appears to be moving towards).

Ever since the 2010 general election that symbolized Myanmar’s pivot, the country has been targeted with a new form of destabilization. Ultra-nationalist Buddhist monks affiliated with ‘opposition’ leader Aung San Suu Kyi waged war on the country’s coastal Muslims (self-identified as Rohingya) and precipitated the current Southeast Asian maritime migrant crisis.

The implications are now enormous, since a possible Rohingya rebellion (which would appear justified in the eyes of conditioned foreign observers) could set the stage for the creation of a South Asian “Kosovo”, which might then foreseeably trigger the Yugoslav-like collapse of the entire Union of Myanmar.

On top of that, the Indian anti-terrorist operation recently conducted in the country might provoke the assortment of rebel groups in the country to break their ceasefire with the government and reinitiate all-out war, which could then interfere with the upcoming elections in early November.

About those, China already appears to be hedging its bets, having just hosted Aung San Suu Kyi in Beijing. While she can’t run for president, her visit to China can be read as the country’s attempt to play political hardball with the Myanmar government and signify its extreme displeasure at its current geopolitical orientation.

All around, Myanmar moving towards the West has been a bad deal for both the country and China, offering only a political benefit to the US in its efforts to divide the two and sow ethnic-based destabilization along their mutual border. Faced with such a predicament, China needs to engage in geopolitical damage control in quickly finding an alternative Southeast Asian corridor to the Sea, and the only opportunity that realistically presents itself is the ASEAN Silk Road through Laos and Thailand.

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## Economic superpower

American aggression is the biggest threat to the world. War after war, decade after decade.

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## Jlaw

Myanmar is an easy target for china with the right leadership.

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## dichoi

.

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## jhungary

Well, some kind of wishful thinking from the OP

Myammar is hostile/neutral to China as long as Chinese support of Shan State continue.

Balkan is 100% On board with NATO, all member of Balkan state are either part of NATO or is in the process of joining NATO. (only Serbia and Kosovo are illegitimate to join, Serbia being having outstand territories dispute and Kosovo is not a UN member), And no, EU does not depend on Russian Gas since 2014, it is the case before 2013 when EU taken 70% of Russian Gas, but since the war in Ukraine, the need for Russian Gas drop to 40-50% level

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## TaiShang

Economic superpower said:


> American aggression is the biggest threat to the world. War after war, decade after decade.



That's slowly being eroded. Cannot take radical steps, maybe, that would rock the boat that currently more or less carries China further. 

**

*Cooperation between Serbia, China in field of social security*

*Balkans news - 03.07.2015*

Serbia's Minister for Labour, Employment, Veteran and Social Affairs Aleksandar Vulin and Vice Minister of Human Resources and Social Security of China Yang Shiqiu today signed a Letter of Intent for greater mutual cooperation in the field of social security. Vulin stressed that Serbia and China have begun talks on cooperation in the field of occupational health, which is of great importance for both countries, and announced that the two countries will continue to work intensively to reach an agreement on social security.

According to Vulin, the signing of an agreement on social security would bring significant benefits to citizens and businesses of both countries, and would especially facilitate the movement of labour.

Vulin pointed out that this cooperation is the result of a large business forum of China and countries in the region held in December last year in Belgrade reports the Government

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## jhungary

http://nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50100.htm

*NATO’s relations with Serbia


Unlike other Western Balkan partners, Serbia does not aspire to join the Alliance. However, the country is deepening its political dialogue and cooperation with NATO on issues of common interest. Support for democratic, institutional and defence reforms is an important focus of NATO’s partnership with Serbia.




NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg and Prime Minister of Serbia Aleksandar Vučić (Munich, February 2015)
 Highlights

NATO and Serbia have steadily built up cooperation and dialogue, since the country joined the Partnership for Peace programme and the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council in 2006.
NATO fully respects the Serbia’s policy of military neutrality.
Kosovo remains a key subject for dialogue, given the presence of the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR), which continues to ensure a safe and secure environment.
The Allies welcome progress achieved through the European Union-facilitated dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina and the commitment of both to normalise relations.
In January 2015, Serbia agreed to deepen cooperation with NATO through an Individual Partnership Action Plan.
*


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## TaiShang

*China’s Railway Diplomacy in the Balkans*
Publication: China Brief Volume: 14 Issue: 20
October 23, 2014
By: Dragan Pavlićević




Hungarian, Serbian and Chinese leaders shake hands at the ceremony announcing their agreement for the new Hungaro-Serbian High-Speed Railway (HSR) project.


In November 2013, China, Serbia and Hungary signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the construction of the Hungaro-Serbian High-Speed Railway (HSR), connecting Belgrade and Budapest by rail to facilitate transporting Chinese exports from Greek ports to European markets. First proposed by Beijing in February 2013, the contract is expected to be finalized during the China-Central and Eastern European (CEE) Summit in Belgrade this December, with construction set to begin in 2015 and finish by 2017 (Dnevnik, February 22, 2013; Government of Republic of Serbia, September 11). The two billion euro ($2.5 billion) project, financed by soft loans from China’s Export-Import Bank and built by state-owned China Railway and Construction Corporation (CRCC), represents the changing face of China’s relations with CEE countries and will serve as a staging ground for greater Chinese access to Western Europe, for both commerce and infrastructure projects (Tanjug, September 9; _Politika_, September 11).

*Ticket to Ride*

The Hungaro-Serbian HSR project is an important part of China’s strategy to extend its Maritime Silk Road (MSR) into Europe via land routes (see _China Brief_, October 10). The maritime terminus of the MSR is the Greek port of Piraeus, which is partially owned by China’s state-owned shipping giant COSCO and is now the main entry point for Chinese goods to Europe, though Beijing has also shown interest in developing and utilizing other Greek ports in Thessaloniki and Igoumentsia, as well as several Adriatic ports, including Bar in Montenegro (_People’s Daily_, December 21, 2012). Furthermore, railway infrastructure and technology projects financed with Chinese export loans enable Chinese state-owned enterprises (SOEs) to gain a foothold in overseas markets and test their technology and know-how in less-developed European countries on the way to lucrative markets in Western Europe.

Keeping Chinese imports competitive in the European market requires reduced shipping times to offset the rising costs of production in China, and the HSR project will accomplish this by dramatically reducing the time required to transport exports between the Suez Canal and Western Europe. According to Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, directing exports bound for Europe to the Greek port of Piraeus, “the pearl port” of the Mediterranean Sea, already shortens the total shipping time from China to Europe by at least one week compared to traditional routes (China Daily, June 20). Previously, Chinese exports were shipped through the Suez Canal, then sailed around Europe to ports on the northwestern coast, including Rotterdam, Antwerp and Hamburg, and finally taken by rail to inland cities. Now that Chinese exports can sail through the Suez directly to Greece and be taken by train through CEE countries to Western Europe, the total transit time is estimated to decrease from roughly 30 to 20 days. The Hungaro-Serbian HSR, along with other regional transportation infrastructure projects, will further reduce shipping times within the European continent, as HSR trains will average at least between 100 and 125 miles-per-hour (mph), instead of the current 45 mph (Ekathimerini, June 20; Železnice Srbije, November 26, 2013; B92, May 12). This will reduce the time by rail between Belgrade and Budapest alone from the current eight hours down to a mere three hours.

*China’s Railway Diplomacy: Present and Future*

The HSR project adds to a number of recent Chinese-led projects in the Balkans that have either upgraded or built new regional transportation networks, particularly railway infrastructure and technology, which are financed by Chinese banks and fulfilled by Chinese construction SOEs. These projects are part of a coherent Chinese strategy to create a distribution infrastructure that will facilitate the movement of Chinese goods from several ports in southern Europe—Piraeus, Thessaloniki and Bar—via the Balkans to northern Europe.

In Serbia, Beijing features prominently in the country’s development agenda through China’s involvement in myriad capital projects. In December 2012, China’s Chinese Communications Construction Company (CCCC) and the Serbian Ministry of Transport signed an MoU for the improvement of several neglected sections of the country’s north-south railway axis. The north-south railway, including the Serbian part of the Hungaro-Serbian HSR route, transits from Serbia’s borders with Croatia and Hungary in the north to Bulgaria and Macedonia in the south. CCCC will also repair 300 miles of railway connecting Serbia and Montenegro from Belgrade to Bar (Xinhua, December 18, 2012). In July 2013, Serbian Railways reached a 78 million euro ($100 million) agreement with Huawei, backed by favorable bank loans ensured by Huawei, to modernize Serbia’s railway telecommunication infrastructure along 275 miles of the same north-south railway line (Železnice Srbije, July 17, 2013). Serbian Railways is also negotiating a Chinese loan of approximately 400 million euros ($510 million) for the reconstruction of rail lines to Serbian ports on the Danube River. China is interested in harnessing the potential of these ports along the Danube to serve as free-trade zones and transit points for Chinese goods on their way up the river toward European markets, an idea recently embraced warmly by the Serbian government (Government of Republic of Serbia, September 11). The loan could also be used to fund the construction of a new terminal on the north-south railway route, and would be paid back through exports of unspecified Serbian commodities to China (InSerbia, April 14). These projects altogether reflect a further deepening in Serbia’s strategic partnership with China, and Serbia’s role anchoring as a key transport hub for Chinese exports.

In Hungary, which borders the Balkans to the north, the government reached an agreement in February with CRCC, financed through the China Development Bank, to build a 70-mile railway ring around Budapest (Budapest Business Journal, March 31). The estimated 1.2 billion euro ($1.5 billion) project will enable railway traffic to cross Hungary in one day, down from the current five days, by reaching speeds of 125 mph and avoiding the railway bottleneck in Budapest that significantly slows transit. Of note, Hungary originally sought funding from the European Union (EU), but was turned down.

China is pursuing other rail infrastructure projects in the CEE region. They include a high-speed railway from Romania to Moldova using Chinese financing and technology, and a comprehensive effort to upgrade Greece’s railway system. China’s focus in Greece is the northern route to Macedonia through Thessaloniki and the Macedonian railway line that would connect Greek lines to the upgraded north-south route in Serbia and the Hungaro-Serbian HSR route, effectively extending the high-speed rail connection all the way from Piraeus to Budapest when the projects are all completed. Furthermore, there are Chinese plans to upgrade both railway and road infrastructure from Bar through Montenegro to the border of Serbia (Agerpress, September 2; Government of Montenegro, April 11; BalkanInsight, September 19). Once completed, these projects will significantly improve the transportation infrastructure in CEE countries, while at the same time allowing for a more cost-efficient transfer of Chinese goods from several cargo nodes northward to the European market.

*Building Europe’s Railroad Dream for Brussels*

China’s willingness to finance and deliver these projects provides opportunities for CEE countries, especially Serbia and Hungary, to keep their economies afloat and complete strategic development projects that the EU has so far neglected. CEE countries, whose economies largely depend on cash inflows from the EU that have dried up since the onset of the Global Financial Crisis, view these projects as a valuable opportunity to close the infrastructure gap with Western Europe, and thus become more competitive with Europe and the rest of the world. For example, the last upgrade of the Serbian section of the HSR line was completed in 1980, and has been at the top of the priority list since 2010 for Serbia’s railway planning strategy (Železnice Srbije, February 20). While the EU did offer limited funding to Serbia for this rail line, the EU’s plan called for a moderate modernization, not the dramatic technological leap forward to the HSR that China has decided to support.

Beyond the local economic benefits for CEE countries, China’s determination to finance and build these railways also facilitates the EU’s own development strategy for the CEE region, most notably the Pan-European Corridor 10 plan. The route of the Hungaro-Serbian HSR, as well as most of the other aforementioned railway and road projects, support Corridor 10, a part of the network of ten planned pan-European transport corridors. The EU envisions these corridors as key projects for European integration, as they aim to facilitate the efficient flow of goods, people and capital across Europe. Therefore, the Hungaro-Serbian HSR is not only crucial for the integration of Hungary and Serbia into Europe’s transportation, and thus commercial, networks, but also of strategic importance to Brussels for drawing the Balkans region closer to the EU politically. This is one substantial example of the mutually beneficial “win-win” emerging out of European economic cooperation with China that both medias tout. Indeed, China also benefits from more efficient transport routes and better access to Europe’s interior markets.

Yet, Chinese projects do not receive universal support in CEE countries. For example, the Serbian business community has a less favorable view of Chinese investment and projects, as business elites feel threatened by Chinese competition. This is in contrast to the general public’s belief that the projects create employment and economic growth in their countries, both in the short and long term. Although the agreements stipulate that Serbian enterprises should receive up to 50 percent of the project’s value, the non-transparent process of the selection of contractors breeds the perception amongst business elites that domestic enterprises are excluded from the projects. Although Serbian enterprises do not have the technology and experience required for building and maintaining the HSR, Serbian companies and workers readily posses the necessary technology and skills for normal transportation infrastructure, such as the construction and maintenance of bridges, regular railways and roads, as well as the production of railway equipment and machinery for the HSR. Also, the “importing” of Chinese laborers—when Serbia boasts a high number of unemployed yet skilled laborers—frustrates workers who otherwise see China as a job creator. There are also widespread concerns that Chinese construction falls short of expected quality and technological standards (Author’s Interviews, Serbia, March–July).

*Beijing Displacing Brussels in the Balkans*

Despite these concerns, China’s infrastructure projects in CEE countries are diminishing Brussels’ traditional ability to dominate regional proceedings and reconfiguring regional power relations that have existed since the end of the Cold War. As of the early 1990s, Brussels has been able to guide the development of Balkan countries because they were integrated into the EU’s economic and political structures. However, China’s emergence as an important partner during the financial crisis quickly positioned Beijing to challenge Brussels’ role in the region.

In recent years, a number of CEE countries have adopted pro-China measures and policies. Some CEE countries have been vocal supporters of abolishing the EU’s weapons embargo against China, and some have followed China’s lead on international issues. For example, Serbia effectively boycotted the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize award ceremony to Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo, and voted against EU-supported United Nations resolutions criticizing Iran, Myanmar, Sudan, Zimbabwe and North Korea (European Council for Foreign Relations, July 2011; China Policy Institute, April 2011).

Brussels has sought to counter Beijing’s rising influence in the Balkans, but to little effect. According to local reporting, the EU attempted to persuade Hungary, Serbia and Romania to each reconsider moving forward with their respective HSR deals with China through both official and informal channels, under the guise of ensuring that the projects “adhere to the EU’s policies” (Budapest Business Journal, March 31; _Politika_, June 3; Business Review, September 2). The Balkans may well be the front lines of Beijing’s competition for influence in Europe, as China seeks to muscle its way into a larger role in its biggest export market at a time when the EU is at its weakest in living memory.

*Concluding Thoughts*

Beijing appears to be following a strategic plan to establish a transportation infrastructure network in the Balkans in order to bolster Chinese exports to Europe and support its “going out” policy for Chinese SOEs. This infrastructure strategy is welcomed by CEE countries, as it provides much-needed development opportunities and a competitive edge for their economies. It is therefore likely that some other European countries will be pressed into considering HSR and other infrastructure development projects themselves in order to remain competitive and to secure developmental opportunities, opening the way for further projects delivered by Chinese SOEs and financed by Chinese banks—a one-two punch that the EU is evidently unable to match at home or abroad in its current economic fragility.

As briefly discussed above, China’s emergence as a financial backer and operator of development projects not only carries significant benefits for recipient countries and the EU, but also presents some possible challenges. On one hand, the host countries must ensure that these projects benefit local business communities and meet the necessary quality standards. On the other hand, although China’s loans to developing countries are famously touted as coming without conditions, it remains to be seen whether they are used in the future as leverage to sway the policies of recipient countries in China’s favor, potentially disturbing the current status-quo in the region. With similar deals expected to follow elsewhere, the world should pay attention to how China performs its railway diplomacy in the Balkans, as it may be a telling sign of things to come on a global scale.

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## jhungary

*NATO and Serbia discuss how to move relationship forward*

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg met with the Serbian First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Ivica Dačić and with the Serbian Minister of Defence Bratislav Gašić at NATO
Headquarters on Wednesday (18 March 2015) for talks on the development of the NATO-Serbia relationship. *




*
During the meeting, the Secretary General praised the Serbian government's ongoing efforts to enhance Serbia's role as an active and reliable partner within the international community, including with respect to the Belgrade-Pristina dialogue. The Secretary General also praised the excellent cooperation between KFOR and Serbia and said that NATO remains committed to stability in the Western Balkan region. He welcomed Serbia's EU ambitions and Serbia’s 2015 OSCE Chairmanship.

The Secretary General said that new Individual Partnership Action Plan between NATO and Serbia will provide for new opportunities for cooperation.

Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Dačić and Minister of Defence Gašić also addressed the North Atlantic Council.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_118263.htm

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## TaiShang

*China's Silk Road in Europe: Not Just Hungary*
Hungary became the first country to sign a Silk Road MoU, but various other European states are already on board.

June 09, 2015

Hungary has become the first European country to sign a memorandum of understanding with China on promoting the Silk Road Economic Belt and Maritime Silk Road, China media report. The MoU was signed on Sunday, during Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi’svisit to Budapest, where he met with Prime Minister Viktor Orban. In a statement on the occasion, Wang said he hopes more European countries will join in.

Hungary may be the first country in Europe to officially sign an MoU relating to China’s “One Belt, One Road” strategy, but the subject has cropped up repeatedly during Chinese interactions with Europe. When Xi Jinping toured Europe in April 2014, with stops in The Netherlands, France, Germany, and Belgium, he urged the EU and China to work togetherto combine EU policies with China’s Belt and Road. When Li Keqiang attended the China-Central and Eastern European (CEE) Leaders’ Meeting in Serbia in December 2014, he also highlighted the role Europe has to play in the Belt and Road – and the role China can play in completing infrastructure and energy projects in Central and Eastern Europe under the aegis of that initiative.

More recently, during Xi’s visits to Russia and Belarus this May, both countries agreed to work with China on the Silk Road Economic Belt. Belarus agreed to the project hoping to win Chinese infrastructure investments, while Russia promised to link its new Eurasia Economic Union with China’s Belt and Road.

While the Belt and Road are often discussed primarily in the context of China’s near neighbors – particularly Southeast and Central Asia – Beijing has long been clear about the importance of Europe, particularly Central and Eastern Europe, to the project. A few months after Xi Jinping first unveiled the twin Belt and Road concepts in speeches in Kazakhstan (September 2013) and Indonesia (October 2013), Li extended the Belt and Road all the way to Europe during a November 2013 visit to Romania.

Likewise, the official action plan for the Belt and Road, issues by Chinese government agencies in March 2015, described the Silk Road as “a new Eurasian Land Bridge” that “focuses on bringing together China, Central Asia, Russia, and Europe.” That means the Belt and Road, by China’s own definition, will be incomplete without buy-in from European countries. And Central and Eastern European countries in particular have a special role to play. As _Xinhua put it_ on Monday, “CEE nations will be essential links in the Belt and Road Initiative.”

European countries, like many of the Asian supporters of the Belt and Road, are primarily focused on the economics. “Chinese firms have invested more than 5 billion U.S. dollars in CEE countries in sectors such as energy, infrastructure and machinery,” _Xinhua _reports. In coming years, China will build a high-speed railwayconnecting Hungary and Serbia and construct two nuclear reactors at a Romanian nuclear power plant. According to U.S. law firm Baker and McKenzie, Chinese investment in Europe doubled from 2013 to 2014, reaching $18 billion.

In other words, the Silk Road in Europe was alive and well before Hungary signed the MoU on Sunday – and it will only continue to grow as more government agreements officially tie existing investments and initiatives to China’s Belt and Road strategy.

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## jhungary

*Serbia’s relations with NATO: the other (quieter) game in town

By Milan Nič and Ján Cingel
10. Jan 2014 | Security and Defence, Western Balkans | Serbia | Policy briefs
While all eyes are set on the formal opening of the EU membership talks with Serbia on 21 January 2014, this policy brief explores the prospects for Belgrade’s closer cooperation with NATO. While the EU’s accession process is the force majeure dominating current political and economic development in the Western Balkans, the regional security architecture is still based on NATO. EU and NATO integration are still considered as mutually reinforcing processes. The main focus in Serbia has shifted to “soft security” issues such as rule of law, justice affairs and fight against corruption, where the EU is in the driving seat.

NATO’s continuous engagement in the region has been vital for substantial progress in defence reforms, regional cooperation among national armed forces, and the increasing degree of security ownership among Balkan countries. This applies, above all, to Serbia and Kosovo. Their April 2013 agreement opened the door to the integration of the Serb-dominated northern part of Kosovo under Pristina’s jurisdiction - a huge step forward for regional peace and security. Brokered by EU High Representative Catherine Ashton, it has also indirectly strengthened the NATO’s role (through its KFOR mission) to provide overall security on the ground as this historic deal is being implemented. In fact, Belgrade’s leadership specifically requested KFOR’s involvement, as it deems it is the only military protection of the Kosovo Serbs. By this, KFOR has become security guarantor of the April agreement. Serbia strongly objects to KFOR phase-out plans and hopes that NATO will stay engaged there in a long term.

What does it all mean for Serbia’s relations with the Alliance? What are the realistic prospects to intensify their practical cooperation and political relationship this year? To what extent is it linked with Serbia’s accession talks with the EU?

Partners, not enemies anymore

Serbia is certainly the most complicated but also one of the most relevant NATO partners in the region. It is the only Balkan country which is neither a NATO member nor interested in becoming one in the near future. Officially, Belgrade’s declared goal is military neutrality.

Serbia’s relations with NATO have been continuously haunted by the legacy of the NATO bombing campaign against Serbia in 1999 over Kosovo. The Alliance is still hugely unpopular in the country1. This puts a limit on the Serbian politicians’ ability to publicly acknowledge the real extent and character of the country’s evolving partnership with NATO.

On the other hand, as the largest and centrally located Balkan country with the largest professional army in the Western Balkans, Serbia needs to work closely with NATO to protect its interests, modernise its armed forces, and to increase its international profile as a reliable partner and security provider. Another crucial factor is geography: all of Serbia’s neighbours are either NATO members (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia) or aspire to join the Alliance in the near future (Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina). Belgrade even supports the NATO membership bids of its three neighbours, and seeks the inter-operability of its defence systems with those of NATO members and candidates.

In 2006, Serbia joined the Partnership for Peace programme (PfP) becoming a NATO’s partner country. Belgrade thus gained access to a number of NATO Committees as well as to its programmes, and became eligible to get support from a range of NATO Funds. It has also joined the Planning and Review Process (PARP), which is the basic tool within the PfP through which the partners can reform their armed forces, adopt NATO standards and achieve higher interoperability. On its part, NATO opened its Military Liaison Office in Belgrade and pledged to support Serbia in achieving its Partnership goals. 

Over time, political and military cooperation between NATO and Serbia have evolved with varying speed and intensity. Serbian defence reforms and modernisation of its armed forces (SAF) have been carried out with NATO’s advice and assistance. Selected SAF units2 have already been certified according to NATO’s standards, achieving increased inter-operability for potential deployments in international crisis management operations. Besides Serbia - NATO Defence Reform Group set up by embassies of several members in Belgrade, the Alliance has been active and visible in Serbia through several Trust Funds covering projects addressing several pressing military safety issues (such as liquidation of land mines and, most recently, surplus ammunition) and implemented several projects under the Science for Peace and Security Programme, and Public Diplomacy grants.

The key subject in the Serbia-NATO dialogue has been Kosovo. Serbia’s leaders have vowed never to recognise its independence. The NATO-led KFOR mission is responsible for Kosovo’s security. On the basis of the UN Security Council Resolution no. 1244, KFOR is mandated to ensure a safe and secure environment, including freedom of movement to all people in Kosovo. In effect, it means that KFOR protects the ethnic Serb minority and religious places in the enclaves to the south of the Ibar River. On this basis, Belgrade and SAF have been developing constructive relations with KFOR, including simultaneous and coordinated patrols along the administrative border. On the other hand, Belgrade continues to view with suspicion KFOR’s assistance in developing the KosovoSecurity Force (KSF).

Serbia’s involvement in PfP was put on hold in early 2008 as a reaction to Kosovo’s declaration of independence, which was actively supported by the United States and most (although not all) NATO members. It was resumed one year later. Serbia appointed its first Ambassador to NATO - Branislav Milinković, and opened its mission at the NATO HQ in Brussels in 2010. A few months later, the North Atlantic Council approved Serbia’s request to develop its first Individual Partnership Action Plan (IPAP) defining its defence reform goals and areas for intensified bilateral cooperation for the next two years. Under the IPAP, more political consultations and practical cooperation were to take place. Once adopted the IPAP will upgrade the nature of existing cooperation from purely military to a political one.

In the 2011 - 2012 period, bilateral relations with NATO were gradually gaining momentum. The Serbian President Tadić, himself a former minister of defence (MoD), had been supportive of moving Serbia closer to NATO. At the same time, he was extremely careful and ambiguous about this issue in public, unwilling to challenge the official doctrine of military neutrality. His MoD Dragan Šutanovac was more outspoken in public, explaining that Serbia and NATO are not enemies anymore, but partners seeking the best models of cooperation3. At times, Šutanovac seemed frustrated with the lack of political mandate and unity within the government in terms of what Serbia really wants to achieve in its relations with NATO. By the end of his tenure, the Serbian Ministry of Defence was using the full toolbox of existing programmes developing a substantive track record of bilateral cooperation. In 2012 alone, 119 military and expert activities were implemented (out of 151 planned). At the same time, the Serbian Ministry of Foreign Affairs was careful to note that all of the activities were in line with Serbia's doctrine of military neutrality4, while actively using diplomatic channels to develop the political side of this relationship (at lower levels of officials).

Reluctance to develop political dialogue

This trajectory was interrupted by the change of governments in Belgrade. In May 2012, Serbian President Boris Tadić lost elections to the nationalist candidate Tomislav Nikolić. In parallel, his Democratic Party was replaced in the government by the Nikolić’s Serbian Progressive Party (SNS), which used to be openly critical about Serbia’s cooperation with NATO and whose voter constituency is instinctively anti-NATO. Under its current leader, the powerful first Deputy Prime Minister Aleksandar Vučić, the SNS has been the backbone of the coalition government with the smaller Socialist Party, whose leader Ivica Dačić managed to secure the premiership. When the new government came to power in mid-2012, there was general expectation that quiet drive towards closer relations with NATO would go into reverse. That has clearly not happened. The biggest break-through has been on Kosovo. Under EU facilitation (and with tough conditionality on starting the EU accession talks), the Dačić government has made huge progress in political dialogue with Kosovo, and sought security guarantees from NATO for gradual integration of four Serb-dominated municipalities into Kosovo’s legal system.

In the meantime, a more nuanced picture has emerged vis-á-vis NATO, with the following elements:

There is now more reluctance in Belgrade to develop a political dialogue with the Alliance than two years ago. This was confirmed at the formal meeting between Serbian President Nikolić with NATO Secretary General Rasmussen on the side-lines of the UN General Assembly in New York in September 2013. It mostly focused on KFOR and situation in Kosovo. As for bilateral cooperation, Secretary General Rasmussen underlined that NATO is ready to expand practical military cooperation and political dialogue with Serbia step by step. In his press statement, President Nikolić hinted that Serbia is open to more cooperation but at the same time, it “would not like to choose sides” and prefers to keep political distance from the Alliance.5


This has been accompanied by a clear shift in political rhetoric. Previous talk of moving towards a closer partnership with NATO in Belgrade is gone. For most of 2013, the Serbian government has focused on getting the green light to start the EU accession talks. Its leaders tried hard to explain the fulfilment of tough EU conditionality on Kosovo to the public as a necessary concession that will bring long-term benefits for Serbia, and save it from economic collapse. That is one more reason why Serbian leaders have been more careful to go against public sentiment in other sensitive foreign policy and security issues, including closer cooperation with NATO. President Nikolić, in particular, has repeatedly emphasised military neutrality as the key political guideline in relations with NATO. At the same time, however, Serbia has continued to develop its practical cooperation with the Alliance, albeit with less enthusiasm for political dialogue than before. 


Vučić (who until August 2013 also held the position of MoD) has been trying to balance developing cooperation with NATO by intensified political and military contacts with Russia, including in arms procurement. Earlier in 2013, Serbia became an observer at the Moscow-led Collective Security Treaty Organisation. However, the current level of Serbia-NATO cooperation remains significantly greater than the level of military cooperation with Moscow. In November 2013, Vučić tried hard to fend off concerns of the visiting Russian Minister of Defence, Sergei Shoigu, over continuous cooperation with NATO and assured him that Serbia’s goal is not to join the Alliance.6


All programs of military-technical cooperation between Serbia and NATO are still moving ahead (up to 160 activities were planned for 2013), and even new ones are being started. In July 2013, a new Trust Fund led by the United Kingdom was launched to assist the SAF to liquidate decommissioned surplus ammunition.7 It is being implemented in the Technical Overhaul Institute Kragujevac (KRZK). In parallel, the pace of security sector reforms at the Ministry of Defence is slowing down. But rather than a result of political decisions, it might well be just a side effect of two issues: the change of personnel and more limited financial resources on both sides. Cuts in defence cooperation programs of NATO member countries also played a role in slight reduction of new activities.
On the other hand, the IPAP – as the key guideline for bilateral cooperation – has yet to be finalised. It is important to note that the current Serbian government decided to submit its updated version to the North Atlantic Council last year. The new IPAP draft has been bouncing back and forth among involved government institutions in Belgrade, and between Serbia and NATO. Now it has reached the final stages of the formal approval procedure, set to be adopted in early 2014. The main areas of future Serbia - NATO cooperation have been envisaged as follows: political and security framework; defence and military issues; public diplomacy, scientific cooperation, crisis management and emergency planning system and the protection of classified information.

This leads to an impression that as NATO is interested to see a gradual build-up of strong relationship, the current Serbian leadership is divided over this issue. In particular, the SNS leadership has been reluctant to move beyond the status quo. As Serbian politics is wheeling up for snap parliamentary election in 2014, this year might bring not only formal advancement of the Serbia - NATO cooperation but perhaps also a more ambitious Minister of Defence allowed to come up with creative ideas about how to move this quiet partnership forward.

Conclusions

In 2014, NATO should encourage Belgrade to deliver on tangible short-term steps palatable to the public opinion and coalition parties constituencies, such as nominating a new Serbian ambassador to NATO (after the tragic death of Ambassador Milinković, his job has been vacant for more than a year). It is very likely that Serbia will first enter the EU (in 2020 at the earliest) and only then decide about its potential membership in NATO. However, in the meantime it will need to develop practical vision of how to use its relationship with NATO for strategic advancement of Serbia’s role in international security and military missions out of Europe. Hopes are that the first IPAP might be approved and its implementation started in 2014.


The new momentum in Serbia’s cooperation with NATO could be generated by the EU accession talks, since it will also include the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) agenda. Relevant Serbian state institutions – the Ministry of Defence in particular – are already mapping what changes will be required. Practical needs for growing interoperability with the EU partners (while most of them are also in NATO) might result in a new push for modernisation of Serbian army as well as in a dramatic increase in Serbian military personnel participation in international peace-keeping operations under the EU or UN flag. Currently, Serbia is involved in number of UN missions as well as the EU’s counter-piracy naval force operation Atalanta around Somalia and its medical team has been part of the EUTM training mission in Somalia.


In Kosovo, the international security set-up might soon undergo major changes as the EULEX’s mandate expires in June 2014, and its renewal by the Kosovo government is far from certain. As the security situation continues to improve, some NATO members advocate for an additional KFOR troop reductions and scaling down its duties to prepare for future withdrawal from Kosovo (under the so-called Gate 3 option). By mid-2014, 300 French soldiers will leave KFOR as decided by the French President Holland at the end of the last year. Serbia strongly rejects the Gate 3 option and would like to see KFOR troops remaining at the current levels even after the announced French withdrawal. If Pristina gets its way and the EULEX’s role is set to diminish, it will be more difficult for some NATO members to argue for further KFOR troop reductions. Such development could strengthen political dialogue between Belgrade and NATO on Kosovo.


In terms of public diplomacy, it is time for a new discourse with more realism“message constituency”, and long-term approach. As shown during the recent “Partnership Tour” co-organised by the Slovak Atlantic Commission and the Atlantic Council of Serbia in towns across the country, more attention needs to be turn to the significance of NATO in providing security for the Serbian community in Kosovo, aid in reforming the Serbian Armed Forces, and to the recent experience of the new NATO members. The Alliance is doing a lot of partnership activities in Serbia which make a real difference and help both Serbian Armed Forces as well as civilians. Serbia belongs to one of the most active NATO partners in Building Integrity Initiative aimed at fighting corruption in the defence sector as well as implementation of the UN SC Resolution No. 1325 on gender equality in armed forces. However, these activities are not publicised effectively in Serbia and very little is known about them outside of Belgrade. NATO as well as Serbia could do more in informing the public about their joint projects and activities. 
Serbia’s relations with NATO: the other (quieter) game in town | cepolicy.org*

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## TaiShang

*China-CEE agriculture cooperation centre to be established in Bulgaria*
26 June 2015 | 07:28 | FOCUS News Agency



Picture: Focus Information Agency

*Sofia. *Major principles of the establishment and functioning of a centre for encouragement of the cooperation in the field of agriculture between China and the Central and East European countries will be officially signed on Friday. The signing ceremony will set the start of the work of the centre, which will be a structure within the Bulgarian Ministry of Agriculture and Food, the press office of the ministry announced.

The official signing ceremony will take place in the frames of a meeting between the agriculture ministers of China and 16 CEE countries, which will be held in the Bulgarian capital city Sofia.

The event will be opened by Bulgarian Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Food Vasil Grudev.

The decision on the establishment of the cooperation centre was agreed on October 29, 2014 in Bucharest Romania, when Bulgaria and China’s ministries of agriculture inked a memorandum of understanding.

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## Aepsilons

Good that the Balkans have a pragmatic view ! Cooperation with the EU community , cooperation with China, too!


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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Good that the Balkans have a pragmatic view ! Cooperation with the EU community , cooperation with China, too!



China's engagement is mostly development-oriented. Balkans is a strategic leg in the One Belt One Road scheme.


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## Aepsilons

Absolutely buddy. And the Balkans as well as Eastern European region need all the investment they can get. Be they from the European Community, China, Japan, U.S. Et al...it's great for them.


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## jhungary

*EU relations with Serbia

In December 2009 Serbian citizens were granted the right to travel without a visa to the Schengen Area. Serbia applied for EU membership in the same month.
The EU facilitates dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina, with the aim of 

promoting cooperation;
achieving progress on the path to the European Union;
improving people's lives.
Since October 2012, High Representative Catherine Ashton has been personally involved in facilitating a High-Level Dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina which resulted in the historic "First agreement of principles governing the normalisation of relations" reached on 19 April 2013. This agreement and its implementation are a breakthrough in relations between both sides and led to concrete changes on the ground. 

In June 2013, the European Council decided to start membership negotiations with Serbia.
In September 2013 the Stabilisation and Association Agreement



(SAA) - a comprehensive contractual framework between Serbia and the EU – entered into force.

In January 2014 the EU and Serbia held their 1st Intergovernmental Conference, thereby formally starting accession negotiations.

The European Commission issues an annual Progress Reportassessing Serbia's progress towards EU accession.

For further information, see:

- Council conclusions

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | EU relations with Serbia
*

*The Bulgarian institutions exchanged experience with experts from Poland, Slovenia, the United Kingdom and Germany for sound management of financial instruments

Structural funds of the EU in Bulgaria :: News*

30.06.2015
On 30 of June 2015 in Boyana Residence a workshop was held, dedicated to the management of financial instruments, co-financed by the European Structural and Investment Funds. It's the first seminar, by which the start has been put of a new Initiative of the European Commission for partnership and exchange of experience between experts from EU Member States. The aim is that the investment resource from the European cohesion policy is better managed. The initiative is based on the experience and the infrastructure of the TAIEX instrument for exchange. In the new instrument's framework public administrations from Member States can receive expertise from experts of other Member States' administrations, as well as provide their own experts to deliver experience and know how in the framework of the EU.

Active part in the event was taken by experts from the managing authorities of the programmes "Regions for Growth", "Environment", "Innovation and Competitiveness", "Human Resources Development" and the Programme for Rural Development, which are expected to use financial instruments in the new programming period. Among the participants were also representatives from the Central Coordination Unit, the Certifying and the Audit Authorities for the EU funds, the key units in the Ministry of Finance responsible for horizontal policies as state aid and cooperation with the international financial institutions, as well as the National Association of the Municipalities as one of the major beneficiaries. The workshop was also attended by the nationally represented business and banks organizations, without which the realization of financial engineering instruments could not be effective.

Mrs Dobrinka Krasteva from the Central Coordination Unit at the Council of Ministers and national contact point for the Initiative opened the event, underlining that the Instrument is a valuable opportunity for sharing of experience of how countries with similar objectives and priorities cope with the challenges of implementation. A large number of experts could make use of this opportunity in future, given that many of the issues have a horizontal nature.

Mr Lazar Todorov from Directorate-General for Neighborhood and Accession Negotiations of the Commission presented the Instrument and explained the forms of support it offers, the conditions for applying and exchange. In the framework of the workshop the national authorities' experts got familiar with some successful models of management and control of financial instruments in the fields of urban development and regeneration, small and medium sized enterprises and environment, and discussed with their counterparts from Slovenia, Germany, United Kingdom and Poland best practices in the respective areas. 
For more information about the Initiative of the European Commission: 

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/index.cfm/en/policy/how/improving-investment/taiex-regio-peer-2-peer/
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019/cretu/blog/full-steam-ahead-regio-peer-2-peer-platform-taking_en?

Presentations from the Workshop


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## XiangLong

dichoi said:


> .



I see that, despite having been an English colony, the English of these people, like certain people on this forum, are just as horrible and illogical as the convictions they stand for.

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## Zarvan

Countries are trade partners with a shared goal of challenging US hegemony, but past disputes and competing interests make the relationship more complex.

Forget euro summits and G7 gatherings: for the countries that like to style themselves as the world’s rising powers, the real summitry takes place this week in central Russia, where Vladimir Putin will hold court.

Leaders of the Brics countries (Brazil, India, China and South Africa) will meet Putin in Ufa on Wednesday, then make way for the Asian powers grouped in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.

Russia and China are the common denominators, as in so much geopolitics these days. The UN security council, Apec, the G20 - Russia and China are the ever-presents, a powerful pairing whose interests coincide more often than not.

Moscow and Beijing have lots in common apart from a 2,500-mile border, economies dominated by state-run firms and oligarchies that can enrich themselves as long as they play by the prevailing political mood of the day.

Officially, Putin is dismissive about suggestions of a new eastern alliance. “We are not creating a military alliance with China,” he said last month. “We are not creating a bloc-based approach, we are trying to create a global approach.”

And yet both countries share a desire to limit American power; they enjoy a burgeoning trade relationship in which, in essence, hydrocarbons are swapped for cheap consumer goods; and they have a mutual interest in promoting an alternative model to western diplomacy.

Trade has increased sixfold over the past decade. Last year they trumpeted the biggest gas deal in history. The summer will be bookended by two striking events: Russian and Chinese warships puttering about together in the eastern Mediterranean in May, gaming war; and Russian and Chinese presidents standing shoulder to shoulder in Beijing for the 70th anniversary of the end of the second world war in September. 


So how robust is the Russia-China axis? 
Geopolitics ::
For China, one of the main attractions of closer relations with Russia is the potential for challenging Washington’s still dominant global position.

“In China, where until recently the official line was ‘non-alignment’, some prominent scholars have started to make unambiguous calls for a comprehensive strategic alliance with Russia,” Alexander Korolev, at the National University of Singapore’s centre on Asia and globalisation, argued recently. “[They are] arguing on the pages of the CCP [Communist party] central party school’s internal publications that ‘China-Russia strategic relations are the most substantive ones’ and elsewhere that ‘China will be unable to shift the world from unipolarity to bipolarity unless it forms a formal alliance with Russia.’”

But often cooperation and tension are two sides of the same coin. Take Central Asia. China’s president, Xi Jinping, has set his sights on a “new silk road”, using China’s billions to help neighbours and regional allies to develop, indirectly supporting growth at home and the expansion of Chinese soft power.

However, this is also Russia’s traditional sphere of influence and any Chinese presence that goes beyond commercial dealings is likely to raise hackles in Moscow.

“It’s totally possible for China to develop its relations with central Asian countries without challenging Russia,” said Liu Jun, a Russian studies expert at East China Normal University. “It’s true that Russia would be concerned if China’s influence in Central Asia grew too much, but the concerns are not mainstream in the bilateral relations – there are more benefits in cooperation than otherwise.”

Russia shares the strategic goal of challenging US hegemony in favour of a more multipolar world, and the two powers often find themselves on the same side in the UN security council, where they wield vetoes as permanent members.

No deal on regulating Iran’s nuclear programme can be made without Russia and China, which have staunchly backed its atomic expansion in the past, and the two countries’ support is largely the reason Bashar al-Assad has been able to hold on to power in Syria. Recently, Russia has been making political and economic overtures to North Korea, which relies on food, arms and energy from its key ally, China, to survive.

As they support the idea of a multipolar world against American dominance, Moscow and Beijing will also tacitly back each others’ attempts to defend their own spheres of influence, said Dmitry Trenin, director of the Carnegie Moscow Centre. In the past two years, Russia has annexed Crimea and backed a separatist campaign to frustrate Ukraine’s turn to the west, and China has been disputing islands with western allies in the South China Sea.

“China admits de facto that Russia has interests in eastern Europe, Russia admits that China has interests around the perimeter of its borders, and even though neither will actively help its partner in Ukraine or the South China Sea, both will observe an advantageous neutrality,” Trenin said. “There won’t be criticism of each other in the areas of their core interests.”


Leadership ::
Government enthusiasm for warmer ties with Russia is summed up by a recent video from the state-controlled Xinhua news agency entitled What Do Chinese People Think About Russia?”

It features Chinese children describing Russia as “even bigger than China”, an old man praising Russia’s strength, demands for more investment, gas sales, a high-speed train, and plenty of airtime given to adulation of the Russian president.

Putin has long been popular in China, where he is seen as a strong leader who has bolstered national pride, and is not a little admired for his topless photo shoots. “Putin you’re a handsome man,” says one middle-aged woman on being asked what message she would like to send to Moscow.

There is also an overt comparison to Xi, who has fostered a personality cult of bold leadership that has echoes of the Russian leader’s (though with less bare flesh). “Putin is the same as our ‘Papa Xi’,” says one young man, using a government endorsed affectionate term for the president.

For their part, Russians are more ambivalent about Xi, who has a far lower profile in Russia than does his counterpart in China.


Trade ::
China’s interest in Russian exports has until now been largely focused on natural resources and military hardware. Beyond that they do not make natural partners. Russia can offer little by way of famous brands or innovation in consumer technology to tempt ordinary Chinese customers.

“It’s a good thing that there is political will behind the business cooperation. Without it, a lot of things won’t happen,” Liu said. “Most big projects are backed by the governments and the volume of trade along the border is quite small.”

The imbalance of the relationship can be seen in the breakdown of their bilateral trade, worth around $100bn a year. China is Russia’s second largest trading partner after the EU, while Russia only just scraped into a list of China’s top 10 trading partners, accounting for barely 3% of the country’s total trade volume.

Moscow is also hoping Beijing will help with finance for businesses, after western funds dried up last year. Some Chinese firms have seen the Russian economic wobble as an opportunity to make capital investments in the country.


Energy ::
China and Russia should make natural partners in energy deals, but in reality they have struggled to turn past agreements into real supply deals; pipelines announced last decade have still not been built because of disagreements over pricing and other conditions.

Earlier this year, Russia overtook Saudi Arabia as the largest supplier of oil to China for the first time, with Russian exports to China more than doubling since 2010. But Beijing is accustomed to shopping around for energy and driving a very cheap bargain with its suppliers, while Russia is used to controlling prices for European customers with few other options.

The expansion of shale gas production may have weakened Russia’s hand by improving global supply, but China is also increasingly concerned about climate change and needs to wean itself off the dirty coal that still provides well over half its energy.

Since Russia has rarely agreed to sell stakes in strategic land-based deposits to western companies, Putin’s offer of a stake in state oil champion Rosneft’s biggest production asset, the Vankor oilfields, to China in September underlined the new direction the country’s energy policy is taking.

The offer was made at a ceremony to start construction of Russia’s $55bn Power of Siberia pipeline, a breakthrough project that is planned to deliver an annual 38bn cubic metres of gas to eastern China over the next 30 years. In November, the two countries also signed a framework agreement for an Altai gas pipeline to potentially supply 30bn cubic metres of gas to western China each year for 30 years.

But neither pipeline deal appears to have been completely finalised, and economic sanctions and a weak rouble will probably make financing the huge projects difficult for Russia’s Gazprom.

“It seems like at every meeting there’s some sort of document signed and hailed as another big agreement … but Gazprom will need to develop large fields and construct the pipelines,” said Grigory Birg, an analyst at Investcafe. “I think in the current environment securing the finances is the major holdup, and we don’t have any indication as to the economics of the project.”

Although Birg estimated the rate of return on the Power of Siberia investment to be a modest 9% to 10% when the deal was signed, the profitability is likely to be even less if global oil prices remain weak. Beijing will, by all appearances, be able to drive an even harder bargain for the gas price under the proposed Altai pipeline to western China, a region that has less demand than the industrialised east of the country and already receives cheap gas from nearby Turkmenistan.

Nonetheless, analysts expect energy cooperation to continue to grow as Russia seeks alternatives to the politically thorny European market, and China addresses growing demand and problems with pollution and blackouts. Last year, China replaced Germany as Russia’s biggest buyer of crude oil. “China is the major alternative market and is easily accessible for Russia given the [location of energy] reserves and the geopolitical partnership, so it’s an obvious fit,” Birg said. “But the timing at which it is happening is not in favour of Russia.”


Currency ::
Both Russia and China have an interest in loosening the US dollar’s dominance in global trade as the world’s reserve currency. Russia now accepts yuan for oil payments (something that other oil exporters, such as Saudi Arabia, don’t do).

Following the imposition of sanctions, Russian companies and banks – traditionally reliant on dollar-denominated syndicated loans – started to look to China for a financial escape route. The rouble-yuan currency pair reached records in trading volumes last summer.

Russian companies are not new to the renminbi market, nor to the issuing of “dim sum bonds” – bonds denominated in Chinese yuan and largely issued by entities based in China or Hong Kong. In the past these options represented a cheaper source of funding. Now they’re a necessity. However, yields on Russian corporate bonds denominated in yuan have increased as the list of sanctions started mounting up.


Military ::
Russian arms sales to China have been estimated at $1bn a year, the Russians were previously hesitant to give advanced weaponry to the Soviet Union’s one-time military rival. But the recent announcement by Russia’s state arms exporter of a deal to supply China with its S-400 surface-to-air missile systems has taken their relationship to a new level at a time when Beijing is seeking new air and naval defence technologies.

The higher-level arms sales have been accompanied by greater military cooperation, which was on display in May with the war games in the Mediterranean Sea. Such exercises in what has traditionally been a “Nato pond” are designed to expand the Chinese navy’s reach while showing the United States that Russia is a potentially important military partner, according to Trenin.

Following the Ukraine crisis, which soured relations with the west, he said the main considerations behind Russia’s “entente” with China were political. “Now Russia has an important stimulus to grow relations with China, because relations with the west are troubled, and China is the only large player in the world that can be considered as economic, political and to a certain extent military ally,” Trenin said.

Both sides, meanwhile, are concerned that the unrest in Pakistan and Afghanistan could spill over into their territory, or serve as incubators for militants who may one day return home.

But none of that means that either side has forgotten past disputes or present differences. Russia is nervous about China sapping its revenue by reverse engineering the equipment it buys, and is also monitoring Beijing closely for any attempts to project military power into central Asia.

“China and Russia’s strategic partnership is a result of the times, but it is totally different from a military alliance such as the one between the US and Japan,” the Global Times, a Chinese nationalist tabloid, said in a recent editorial.

“China and Russia have repeatedly stated that they will become partners, not allies. They do mean that. China also cares about relations with western countries. Russia does not want to see relations with the west become a deadlock.”


Cyber Security ::
Both Russia and China share a concern over the US domination of the internet. In January, Russia, China and a number of central Asian dictatorships jointly submitted a new proposal for an international code of conduct on information security to the UN general assembly.

In a clause clearly aimed at the US, the document calls for countries “not to use information and communications technologies and … networks to interfere in the internal affairs of other states or with the aim of undermining their political, economic and social stability”.

At a recent internet security forum in Moscow, officials from both countries called for a new approach to online security.

“It’s great they [the US] invented the iPhone but when you open your iPhone and see the camera you have to guess whether it’s photographing you at that moment or not,” said Konstantin Malofeyev, a controversial businessman known for his backing for the Russian Orthodox church and the pro-Russian separatist movement in east Ukraine. “Russia went into space first and Antarctic first but we don’t control those things, they are controlled by international charters. Why should the US control the internet?”

Chinese official Chen Xiaohua said: “We should join hands to build cyberspace order. Various countries share a consistent vision of enhancing the governance of cyberspace … following the principles of mutual trust and mutual respect.”

In the meantime, Beijing and Moscow signed a landmark cyber-security deal recently that could bolster defence against external attack as well as allowing them to share technology for domestic control. 

The two countries have poured resources into managing the internet, aiming to curb its potential as a platform for dissent. Beijing’s “great firewall” is a powerful and sophisticated filter of the online world, but is still porous enough that most people inside China do not need to bother trying to evade it.

Both countries also field armies of both hackers and paid pro-government commenters, known in China as the “50 cent” group, because of how much they are paid for each post. However, experts say their focus on internal controls may have come at the expense of security.

“Prioritising political information control over technical cyber defence also damages China’s own cybersecurity,” Jon Lindsay of Harvard University’s Belfer centre for science and international affairs said in a recent briefing. “Lax law enforcement and poor cyber defences leave the country vulnerable to both cyber criminals and foreign spies.”


Business Mood ::
Among some business people, there is a fear that the enforced turn to the east will mean Russia selling out from a position of weakness.

“The downturn in relations with the west is bad for Russia and bad for the west; the only beneficiary is China,” one top Russian businessman said. “The number of Chinese delegations coming to Russia has gone up tenfold, and the Chinese will only enter the market when they see the conditions are very beneficial to them.”

Russian media have been told to play up links with China and other non-western countries, and companies have felt pressure from the government to look eastwards even if it makes little business sense. But what initially seemed pointless may be starting to bear some fruit.

“It started as theatre, but now there are some companies out there really getting stuff done,” said Tom Blackwell, CEO of EM, a consultancy firm that has worked with a number of major Russian companies on exploring the Chinese market. “Chinese investment funds have very little experience or knowledge about Russia and it’s a hard sell. But the strategy seems to be to do the big state deals first and assume smaller ones will follow. Slowly, real things are happening.”

Russia’s federal migration service is especially wary of an influx of Chinese migrants across the Russia-China border. It has stated that Chinese could become the largest ethnic group in Russia’s far east by the 2020s or 2030s; last summer a border official said that 1.5 million Chinese illegally entered the region from January 2013 to June 2014.

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## TaiShang

*Ufa summits sign of shift in Eurasian geopolitics*
By Yang Jin Source:Global Times Published: 2015-7-8 0:43:01

*The summits of the BRICS countries and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) will be held from Wednesday in the Russian city of Ufa.* They are the most important meetings of the two regional organizations this year. Leaders of both the BRICS and the SCO will gather to discuss global affairs such as the world economy, regional cooperation, the formulation of security norms and institutional buildup.

It is the first time that the two major events will be held one after the other in the same city. It is both a coincidence and inevitable. The joint convention will not only save costs for venue construction and organization, but also reduce the time costs for state leaders and boost efficiency. Meanwhile, under the current international landscape, the agendas of the two summits have a lot in common. The joint convention will help the countries find more common ground and expand the clout of the two summits.

In addition, both China and Russia are important participants of the two mechanisms. India belongs to the BRICS group, and is actively seeking a membership in the SCO. As the two meetings will be held in Ufa, it reflects a profound change in the Eurasian geopolitical situation.

First of all, changes are taking place in Eurasia's geopolitical architecture which was led by Western powers in the past. Due to the rapid development of emerging economies, international power has been shifting to emerging countries which have an increasing say in rule-making. The topics featured in the two summits will not be limited to regional topics but will extend to global subjects.

Second, given the current state of international relations, emerging countries are more willing than ever to seek common development. The available mechanisms for cooperation are improving and having an impact on the new international structure. Cooperation and joint governance will become the mainstream of major power competitions.

Third, against the background of a global financial crisis that has yet to end and the ongoing European debt crisis, there is a growing need for emerging countries, including Eurasian countries, to deepen cooperation. The Ufa summits will unite the participating countries in political, economic and security areas by covering richer and more pragmatic subjects.

Fourth, as the Ukrainian crisis is far from over and Russia is still being contained by Western countries, the two summits may provide possibilities for solving the crisis and promoting regional peace.

Last but not the least, the China-proposed Silk Road economic belt and Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank will be among the major topics during the two summits. China's support and participation will guarantee the sustainable development of the two mechanisms.

According to Russian media, a "BRICS Economic Partnership Strategy" will likely be passed in the BRICS summit. A BRICS development bank and an emergency reserve fund will possibly see some breakthroughs. This shows that BRICS nations have reached an agreement on the future strategy of this mechanism. The primary conditions for closer economic relations and integration have taken shape.

As for the SCO, it has borne rich fruits after years of development and come to the critical moment for deepening this institution. The Ufa summit is expected to pass a development strategy up to 2025, which will undoubtedly become a milestone in this organization's development. This guiding document will expand the cooperation of member countries in various fields such as security, economy and humanitarian efforts. Cooperation measures in trade, investment, energy and finance will also be announced.

The SCO may also embrace new members. How to ensure transparency and efficiency in the expansion of its membership has always bothered SCO member states. Consensus may be achieved in concrete topics such as how to list India and Pakistan as new members.

It is expected that the Ufa summits will make achievements and represent the concerted efforts of emerging countries to participate in international and regional affairs. The two mechanisms will push pragmatic cooperation and extend their global influence, which bears a landmark significance.

_The author is an associate research fellow of the Institute of Russian, Eastern European, Central Asian Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. __opinion@globaltimes.com.cn_

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## haviZsultan

Anything that gets rid of the US or downgrades them from a power position is welcome. So all hail to the China Russia axis.

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## Providence

They don't know what US can do until we mess with them


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## Economic superpower

Providence said:


> They don't know what US can do until we mess with them



Russia took back Crimea and the US couldn't do a damn thing to stop Russia taking over Crimea 
China took back the Scarborough Shoal from the Pinoys despite the US legally obliged to help the Pinoys. US couldn't do a damn thing to stop China taking over the Scarborough Shoal 
China is building in the South China Sea and the US can't do a damn thing to stop the construction 

Where is the big 'untouchable' soooooper powaaaaaa United States to stop all that?

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## Providence

Economic superpower said:


> Russia took back Crimea and the US couldn't do a damn thing to stop Russia taking over Crimea
> China took back the Scarborough Shoal from the Pinoys despite the US legally obliged to help the Pinoys. US couldn't do a damn thing to stop China taking over the Scarborough Shoal
> China is building in the South China Sea and the US can't do a damn thing to stop the construction
> 
> Where is the big 'untouchable' soooooper powaaaaaa United States to stop all that?



The hardest slap is the one which cannot be heard


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## Economic superpower

Providence said:


> The hardest slap is the one which cannot be heard



Spending all that money on the military but can't stop Russia and China 
PATHETIC

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## TaiShang

*Integrated Challenge? China-Russia vs the Washington Consensus 
--Special to The BRICS Post 
July 8, 2015*

Throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, bilateral relations between China and Russia were often characterized as falling into an “axis of convenience”.

Despite mutual advocacy for a multipolar world and consensus on other major issues in international affairs, Russia and China still have vastly different worldviews about an appropriate international order, each one’s role in such, and how to approach other major powers in the new world order.

But the historical deep-rooted distrust between the two neighboring giants has seemingly receded in the contemporary forging of closer economic and political ties.

Since the changes in top leadership in both countries in 2012, Sino-Russian relations have begun to be redefined, reset even. Even though both sides deny the formation of a full-scale alliance, bilateral relations at the official level are moving closer at a pace unanticipated even by most experts in the field.

In just the past two years, the two countries have signed a wide range of major economic deals including oil and gas exports, energy pipelines, banking and finance, high-speed rail, and wide-bodied aircraft.

They have also agreed to advocate de-dollarization, intensify military cooperation, and coordinate on grandiose regional integration projects.

Both Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping have commented about a “new just world order” which is expected to challenge the domination of a Washington-led paradigm, especially its founding principle, the “Washington Consensus”.

*The Washington Consensus*

The Washington Consensus refers to a set of reform policies that the US government and financial institutions based in the American capital advocate believe should be implemented by nations to ensure economic growth.

It was first coined in 1990 about Latin American economies.

It is prudent to note that such counterforce against Washington Consensus by China and Russia is not meant to be a revolutionary measure, at least not in the near future.

On the one hand, both China and Russia benefited from the post-Cold War expansion of neoliberalism, partially endorsing the policy packages advocated by the Washington Consensus. Their economic achievement to a large extent is the result of gradual integration in the liberal world order.

On the other hand, the domestic national political economic systems of these two countries do depart from the liberal capitalist systems.

Although Russia and China are now much less constrained by international systems and international capital – having insulated themselves from international financial “conditionality” by accumulating large currency reserves – they nevertheless pursue policies that are not completely removed from those prescribed by the Washington Consensus.

While “national development” has again been championed directly or indirectly in both countries after the end of communism, both governments are equipped with new tools and governance skills to mobilize the capitalist metrics to achieve modernization goals in the short run.

Internally, both governments are now in control of the commanding heights of the national economies and influence the investment decisions of private companies through increasingly ‘sophisticated’ new mechanisms, such as minority holdings.

Externally, both countries have taken an active role in overseas investment and trade, becoming major investors in many countries and industries around the world, with resources that can rival those of the traditional capitalist core countries.

The recent initiatives for establishment of the BRICS Development Bank, Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank and the proposed Shanghai Cooperation Organization Bank further coincide with such a trend.

Moscow and Beijing, however, are also leading the developing countries in their demand for a more ‘equitable’ international order and global governance reform.

Neither China nor Russia has openly challenged the current capitalistic world order yet. Nor does either country seek to establish a world on its own rules completely isolated from the liberal capitalist world.

Consequently, such “life-or-death” bipolar rivalry between NATO and the former Warsaw Pact during the Cold War is unlikely to reemerge any time soon. In fact, Russian President Putin in a phone conversation with his US counterpart Obama last week said “Russian-American relations remain the most important factor of international stability and security”.

*Inside-out parallel worlds*

Starting roughly from 2003, China and Russia have engaged in three approaches to modify the rules of the game in international order and global governance.

The first is to reform the current system from within.

For example, both countries have proposed expanding voting power and quota shares for emerging economies within the International Monetary Fund. This approach is designed to further democratize the decision-making process and enhance the representativeness and quality of international governance.

The second is to create or modify rules and institutions to fill in the gaps left unattended by the current international system.

A recent example in this regard is the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which primarily targets countries and areas which have huge demand for infrastructure investment but have not been served adequately by existing development financing institutions, e.g. the Asian Development Bank (ADB).

The third approach is to create a “parallel world” around current international institutions dominated by liberal capitalism.

Mirroring the way Chinese political elites introduced economic reforms in the 1980s, such a strategy keeps the old system intact while allowing the new system to grow in tandem.

Even though the two may not engage in head-to-head competition directly, gradually, the new paradigm may grow to such an extent that the old system becomes irrelevant.

China and Russia, possibly along with several other emerging countries, will modify or challenge the nature of the “liberal leviathan” created and held together by the US in the post-Cold War era.

Whether they have the ‘intention’ or ‘ability’ to replace it with a fundamentally different alternative is a matter of conjecture.

For example, in the field of financing, China and Russia may prefer long-term investment mostly through the banking system.

They are less inclined to advocate for an Anglo-Saxon type of highly liquid, highly open stock market as the main means of financing.

They will most likely opt for capital control and the use of policy – and national banks.

Such difference, however, does not change the fact that the current Chinese and Russian systems are fundamentally profit driven and are just subtypes of capitalism.

China and Russia are not rocking the boat yet. For the foreseeable future, their “integrated challenge” to the Washington Consensus will be highly issue-specific, and its overall nature will depend on the details of specific institutions and rules they promote.

Such an “integrated challenge” may well be the defining theme of the capitalist world order in the near future.

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## Indika

Multipolar world is need of the hour. Western domination in last 5 decades has only seen death and destruction. Balance of power needs to be restored. Other than for trade western powers should stop poking their nose in Asia/africa.

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## Providence

Economic superpower said:


> Spending all that money on the military but can't stop Russia and China
> PATHETIC



Really ? Why is your stock exchange getting hammered ? Couple of months ago it was russia


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## TaiShang

Providence said:


> Really ? Why is your stock exchange getting hammered ? Couple of months ago it was russia



Cycles, Indian, cycles.

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## CIS-TRANS

eyeswideshut said:


> Multipolar world is need of the hour. Western domination in last 5 decades has only seen death and destruction. Balance of power needs to be restored. Other than for trade western powers should stop poking their nose in Asia/africa.


Asian and African countries should be allied with each other instead finding Allies in someone that observes all of us as their pawns, and have no respect of our peoples . If any country in both the continents is unstable then west sees it as opportunity to play more of their dirty games that already led many countries of region in fully chaotic situation.

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## Providence

TaiShang said:


> Cycles, Indian, cycles.



I will come back when the chinese index recovers


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## TaiShang

Providence said:


> I will come back when the chinese index recovers



No worries, Indian. Stay well.

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## Spectre

TaiShang said:


> Cycles, Indian, cycles.



I agree about cycles but and stock market will inevitably recover.

The point of worry is unlike other stock markets where bulk of investors are institutional and hence have comfort to absorb these losses, In China large no of investors are retail who would have lost a substantial amount of their savings.

I care nothing about Hedge Funds, Pension funds etc as they are too big too fail but the here the govt has to support the common people else things can get murky.


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## Providence

TaiShang said:


> No worries, Indian. Stay well.



Okay mr japanese. Thank You !


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## ganesh177

How come india is not a part of APEC.
Or any other saarc nation for that matter.


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## Heinz Guderian

ganesh177 said:


> How come india is not a part of APEC.
> Or any other saarc nation for that matter.


Because we are not Pacific country,


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## cirr

Providence said:


> They don't know what US can do until we mess with them



What could you do？

You lot were in Afghanistan for 10 years fighting a few thousands of guerrillas，yet you had no choice but to get the hell out of the country with tails between legs in the end。

Beijing-Moscow now，Beijing-Moscow-Berlin later。

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## ganesh177

Heinz Guderian said:


> Because we are not Pacific country,



Then it should be PEC(Pacific Economic Cooperation ), not APEC.


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## Heinz Guderian

ganesh177 said:


> Then it should be PEC(Pacific Economic Cooperation ), not APEC.


Why? Some Pacific countries is not in Asia?


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## Providence

cirr said:


> What could you do？
> 
> You lot were in Afghanistan for 10 years fighting a few thousands of guerrillas，yet you had no choice but to get the hell out of the country with tails between legs in the end。
> 
> Beijing-Moscow now，Beijing-Moscow-Berlin later。



We had no choice ? We tested so many weapons and perfected the aims over tulibuns before aiming at china


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## Borr

`axis' is one of the words that make I doubt the ability of English as a language to make reasonable words.


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## Jlaw

Economic superpower said:


> Russia took back Crimea and the US couldn't do a damn thing to stop Russia taking over Crimea
> China took back the Scarborough Shoal from the Pinoys despite the US legally obliged to help the Pinoys. US couldn't do a damn thing to stop China taking over the Scarborough Shoal
> China is building in the South China Sea and the US can't do a damn thing to stop the construction
> 
> Where is the big 'untouchable' soooooper powaaaaaa United States to stop all that?


One more to the list. China started AIIB, US tell lackies not to join, but they said **** you uncle and joined.



TaiShang said:


> No worries, Indian. Stay well.


Indian posters are a dead give away when they post on articles relating to China.

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## Economic superpower

eyeswideshut said:


> Multipolar world is need of the hour. Western domination in last 5 decades has only seen death and destruction. Balance of power needs to be restored. Other than for trade western powers should stop poking their nose in Asia/africa.



Last 5 decades?
Try last 5 centuries.

From about the end of the 1400's until now, the West have been causing death and destruction on the non-Western people decade after decade, century after century.

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## TaiShang

Spectre said:


> The point of worry is unlike other stock markets where bulk of investors are institutional and hence have comfort to absorb these losses, In China large no of investors are retail who would have lost a substantial amount of their savings.
> 
> I care nothing about Hedge Funds, Pension funds etc as they are too big too fail but the here the govt has to support the common people else things can get murky.



Supporting common investors is the reason China has been mobilizing certain measures to stop the slide

I will repeat what I said on another thread: Lost in all the drama about the stock market is that it still plays a surprisingly small role in China. The free-float value of Chinese markets—the amount available for trading—is just about a third of GDP, compared with more than 100% in developed economies. Less than 15% of household financial assets are invested in the stockmarket: which is why soaring shares did little to boost consumption and crashing prices will do little to hurt it. Many stocks were bought on debt, and the unwinding of these loans helps explain why the government has been unable to stop the rout. But this financing is not a systemic risk; it is just about 1.5% of total assets in the banking system.

It is definitely a wake up call for better regulations and oversight on part of the officials and higher prudence on part of the individual investors. But it is neither systemic, nor catastrophic. It has very little to do with the real economy.



Jlaw said:


> Indian posters are a dead give away when they post on articles relating to China.

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## rott

Providence said:


> The hardest slap is the one which cannot be heard


People still believe in fairy tales?


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## cirr

*Connecting Eurasia: mapping the myriad of high-speed rail routes*

9 July 2015 Eva Grey

A new era of transnational connectivity is within reach as leading Asian and European countries lay out plans for long-distance or cross-border high speed rail infrastructure. From Russia to France and India to China, Eva Grey looks into the future of high-speed across Europe and Asia.







*The Trans-Eurasian Belt Development: connecting continents*

In one of the most ambitious high-speed projects to date, Russia recently unveiled plans to build the first modern high-speed railway across Europe, Russia, Alaska and the US. The Trans-Eurasian Belt Development (TERP) project would be a 12,000-mile transport route linking Europe and Asia, with key stops in London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow and New York.

The plans, which also include the construction of an adjacent motorway alongside the route, were announced on 25 March by Russian Railways head Vladimir Yakunin during a meeting of the Russian Academy of Science.

Referring to the continent-spanning railway as an "inter-state, inter-civilization project", Yakunin expressed excitement at the prospect of economic growth and new job creation as a result of the project. The railway is expected to feature either a tunnel or bridge across the Bering Strait, but an exact route is still to be established. The cost of this mammoth continent-crossing project is estimated at trillions of dollars, with no precise figure in sight. Without more specifics or international agreements, the project is still very much in its theoretical stages.

*Moscow-Kazan: Russia's first high-speed railway*

Russia is on track to build the first true high-speed railway line in its territory. The 15-station link will see 250mph trains run along a 480-mile route between Moscow and Kazan, connecting some of the country's most important economic areas. Once completed in 2018, the route will slash journey times between the two cities from the current eleven hours to only three and a half hours.

The project's total cost of just over $28bn will be 60% financed by Russian Railways, with the remaining 40% to come from foreign investment. On 1 May, the rail operator announced that a Russian-Chinese consortium won the first $360m contract to undertake planning, design and surveying works towards the project between 2015 and 2016.

*Breaking down borders: How feasible is high-speed rail between the US and Mexico?*

Are North American attitudes towards high-speed rail beginning to thaw?

The high-speed line, which is one of the biggest infrastructure schemes in Russia, will serve a total population of over 25 million dispersed through seven regions. During its first year in operation, 10.5 million passengers are expected to board its trains.

*Mumbai-Ahmedabad: India's hopes for high-speed*

India has been entertaining the idea of developing high-speed rail infrastructure for years, with only modest progress made so far. One of the country's most tangible projects is the 330-mile rail link between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. The project is part of the government-proposed 400-mile Pune-Mumbai-Ahmedabad rail corridor and, if completed, it would mark the country's first high-speed railway.

Despite financial problems that stopped the project in its infancy in 2014, the Indian Government is now hurrying to kick-start production of high-speed rail infrastructure.

The Japan Internal Cooperation Agency (JICA) is currently undertaking a feasibility study for the Mumbai-Ahmedabad passage. JICA will announce in June this year whether the route can support trains travelling at speeds of over 200mph, as well as potential funding options and the viability of the overall structure.

If approved, the railway's construction is expected to cost anywhere between $10bn and $13bn and take around ten years to complete. According to current plans, the final result would feature an elevated track between the two cities, cutting the journey from the present eight hours to just two and a half.

In March, a Japanese consortium led by East Japan Railway Company expressed interest in taking up the building contract for the railway.

*China-Europe: revival of the Silk Road*

China's enthusiasm for high-speed trains has known few boundaries so far and now it has set its ambitions on a new grandiose scheme: reviving the ancient Silk Road route via a state-of-the-art high-speed rail network for both passengers and freight.

"China's enthusiasm for high-speed trains has known few boundaries so far."
The $150bn railway would start in Xinjiang and snake its way across 3,700 miles through 40 Asian and European countries which hold a total population of three billion people. Although this gargantuan project might seem like wishful thinking, Chinese media reported a rather short prospective timeline: an initial finish date is envisioned for 2020, followed by the start of operational services by 2030. Despite China's confidence, there are a host of obstacles that could prove insurmountable to the project as a whole, let alone the high-speed timetable that has been reported.

The project's biggest hurdles are geopolitical discrepancies between the countries, which is why China's President Xi Jinping gathered over 100 European leaders and representatives to Beijing in July 2014 to pitch and debate the idea. Even with the countries' consent, differences in line track gauge between the European standard of 1,524 mm and China's 1,435 mm would impose the necessity of changing wheels at the border.

The rail structure falls within China's One Road One Belt economic plan of diversifying and constructing new land and sea routes into Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa.

*Beijing-Moscow: the Eurasian transport corridor*

China and Russia are strengthening their ties via a direct line between Moscow and Beijing that is set to become the longest high-speed railway in the world on completion.

Despite a Memorandum of Understanding signed between the two countries' leaders in October 2014, the project was initially met with incredulity due to a number of practical hurdles. However, details emerging in January and March 2015 are starting to give the project a clearer shape.

The 250mph bullet trains will race across a total of 4,800 miles, traversing China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Russia. Much of the distance will run in parallel with the Trans-Siberian Railway, but compared to a six-day journey on the famous line, the new bullet train will reach its destination in just 33 hours.

While the project has been estimated to take between five and ten years to complete, works have already begun on the first leg of the journey between Moscow and Kazan.

*Unnecessary and expensive: Lords Committee throws out economic case for HS2*

Critics of the hotly debated High Speed 2 line will welcome a report which shines light on serious shortcomings.

Possible routes of the $242bn line are currently being considered, including options to cross through either Kazakhstan or the Altai region, with a detour of 180 miles.

*Rail Baltica: the eco-friendly high speed rail*

The EU is laying the foundations for a north-south railway route to serve as a link between Scandinavia and Western Europe. Rail Baltica is one of the top priority projects under the Trans-European Transport Networks (TEN-T) package of transport infrastructure projects within the EU.

The 430-mile route will link Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, with an extension reaching down into Germany. The future electric railway could cost €3.68bn to construct, but it is expected to be 85% financed by the European Union, including a €124m contribution granted under the TEN-T programme.

There are two route options available: one that requires modernising existing tracks at a cost of €1.5bn and a second option that involves building new infrastructure at a cost of €2.4bn.

The scheme aims to reconnect the three Baltic countries to the rest of Europe, to great mutual economic gain. The connection envisions that after it becomes operational in 2025, fast trade, tourism and jobs will boom in all the states involved. At present, one of the first objectives of the project is to get "as much built as possible" by 2022.

*Paris-Bratislava-Budapest: the "Magistrale for Europe"*

One of the top priority projects under The Trans-European Transport Networks (TEN-T) agreement is an east-west high-speed axis through central Europe that would join France, Germany, Austria and Hungary via one direct line. Sections between key cities alongside the railway's final route have been operational as far back as 2007; however the complete route is expected to be finalised sometime after 2020, with deadlines varying for each section.

"The EU is laying the foundations for a north-south railway route to serve as a link between Scandinavia and Western Europe."

The project has received a total input of $495m since plans were first drawn out in 2007. The final 980-mile track will ultimately stretch from Paris to Budapest in only ten and a half hours, stopping in Strasbourg, Munchen, Salzburg and Vienna along the way.

*High Speed 2: bridging UK's North-South divide*

The hotly-debated HS2 line, one of Britain's biggest infrastructure projects to date, is designed as a long-term financial investment into the country's future and a way to "heal" the north-south economic divide.

Planned in two phases, the massive project will see 250mph trains connect 18 cities, including London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, in order to spur productivity and re-balance economic growth. A quicker transfer between the country's key cities will mean journey times are slashed to up to an hour between most destinations.

The first leg of the track between London and Birmingham will start being built in 2017 and is expected to be operational by 2026, followed by the Y-shaped phase touching Manchester and Leeds, which is due for completion around 2033.

The cost of the project has been subject to numerous evaluations, with current estimates standing at £50bn in total. Once operational, the government believes it could be used by as many as 85 million passengers per year by 2043.

*Tours-Bordeaux: continuing France's high-speed legacy*

With the early introduction of the TGV lines, France has established itself as a leader in high-speed train infrastructure in Europe. Since then, it has been persistent in further developing and growing its high-speed network. Now, another expansion project is currently underway: the South Europe Atlantic high-speed rail, connecting Tours to Bordeaux, is set for completion in 2017.

In 2012, construction began for the €7.8bn project's 190 mile-long high-speed link between the two cities, with a further 23 miles in links to existing tracks along the corridor.

Once in operation, electrically-powered trains will travel at 200mph, offering yet another convenient link between the northern and southern parts of Europe through the heart of France.

Connecting Eurasia: mapping the myriad of high-speed rail routes - Railway Technology

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## TaiShang

*China, Eurasian Economic Union to Launch EPA Talks: Official*
2015-07-11 

China and the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) will start negotiations on an economic partnership agreement (EPA) as soon as possible, Chinese Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng said in Ufa, Russia on Friday.

Gao made the announcement when talking at a press briefing about the conjunction of China's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative and the EAEU's development strategies.

During the EPA talks, the two sides will align their rules, mechanisms and cooperation areas, said the minister, adding that they will give full play to the roles of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) as a link and a platform.

At the briefing, held in the wake of the seventh summit of the emerging-market grouping of BRICS -- Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa -- and the 15th SCO summit, Gao also spoke highly of the major results of the two meetings.

He noted that as far as economy and trade are concerned, the principal outcome of the BRICS summit is the release of the BRICS economic partnership strategy, which lists eight key areas of cooperation, including trade, investment, manufacturing, energy and finance.

The BRICS countries also pledged to support multilateral trade systems and reject trade protectionism, and comprehensively launched e-commerce cooperation among them, he added.

On the SCO summit, Gao said one of the main results is that joint construction of the China-proposed Silk Road Economic Belt has become an important part of regional cooperation.

Meanwhile, the start of enlargement will further expand SCO cooperation, and the organization's openness and inclusiveness have increased with the alignment and integration of the various development strategies in the region, he added.

Gao also laid emphasis on the four-point proposal Chinese President Xi Jinping put forward on boosting regional economic and trade cooperation.

In his proposal, Xi said China stands ready to boost cooperation with its partners on regional connectivity, production capacity, investment and financing, and capacity building.

Xi's suggestions, Gao noted, drew enthusiastic support from all other participating countries.

**

China's foreign diplomacy is on high gear, again

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## cirr

TaiShang said:


> *China, Eurasian Economic Union to Launch EPA Talks: Official*
> 2015-07-11
> 
> China and the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) will start negotiations on an economic partnership agreement (EPA) as soon as possible, Chinese Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng said in Ufa, Russia on Friday.
> 
> Gao made the announcement when talking at a press briefing about the conjunction of China's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative and the EAEU's development strategies.
> 
> During the EPA talks, the two sides will align their rules, mechanisms and cooperation areas, said the minister, adding that they will give full play to the roles of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) as a link and a platform.
> 
> At the briefing, held in the wake of the seventh summit of the emerging-market grouping of BRICS -- Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa -- and the 15th SCO summit, Gao also spoke highly of the major results of the two meetings.
> 
> He noted that as far as economy and trade are concerned, the principal outcome of the BRICS summit is the release of the BRICS economic partnership strategy, which lists eight key areas of cooperation, including trade, investment, manufacturing, energy and finance.
> 
> The BRICS countries also pledged to support multilateral trade systems and reject trade protectionism, and comprehensively launched e-commerce cooperation among them, he added.
> 
> On the SCO summit, Gao said one of the main results is that joint construction of the China-proposed Silk Road Economic Belt has become an important part of regional cooperation.
> 
> Meanwhile, the start of enlargement will further expand SCO cooperation, and the organization's openness and inclusiveness have increased with the alignment and integration of the various development strategies in the region, he added.
> 
> Gao also laid emphasis on the four-point proposal Chinese President Xi Jinping put forward on boosting regional economic and trade cooperation.
> 
> In his proposal, Xi said China stands ready to boost cooperation with its partners on regional connectivity, production capacity, investment and financing, and capacity building.
> 
> Xi's suggestions, Gao noted, drew enthusiastic support from all other participating countries.
> 
> **
> 
> China's foreign diplomacy is on high gear, again



Russia the security provider，China the money lender？

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## EAsian

It's sad that we have to borrow land where used to belong to China hundreds of years ago from russia.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

EAsian said:


> It's sad that we have to lend land where used to belong to China one hundred year ago from russia.


When did Zabaykalsky Krai belong to China?


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## Kyle Sun

win win solution.

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## EAsian

Syama Ayas said:


> When did Zabaykalsky Krai belong to China?


It used to belong to Qing empire more than 300 years ago.


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## TaiShang

Kyle Sun said:


> win win solution.



That's good development. More agricultural production, less hunger.


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## Zhukov

Wait for indian trolls to say "China is colonizing Russia"

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## TaiShang

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Wait for indian trolls to say "China is colonizing Russia"



We are simply developing what once was vast empty lands. That's only leased land. Who would in their right mind be able to grab land from Russia? 

And we are talking about Russia, which is slightly under 20million sqm and still growing


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## Borr

Russia probably saw the news that the population dropped in NE China... and sighed out of relief.


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## ahojunk

The EU sanctions against Russia is now coming back to bite them (EU) hard!
lol.

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## saurav

Hehehe... Now that Russia has found a new supplier EU should eat all their dairy products. I think EU sanctions will be lifted pretty soon.


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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> The EU sanctions against Russia is now coming back to bite them (EU) hard!
> lol.



The world has changed. Gone are times when the US-led West punished others and left unscathed. 

It is now eye for an eye, as it should be.

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## Indika

saurav said:


> Hehehe... Now that Russia has found a new supplier EU should eat all their dairy products. I think EU sanctions will be lifted pretty soon.


That was pretty stupid of EU to toe US line. If china pulls the blanket then they will be stuck in their own crap.


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## Kyle Sun

eyeswideshut said:


> That was pretty stupid of EU to toe US line. If china pulls the blanket then they will be stuck in their own crap.


well it is not up to eu.

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## rott

China to EU: Jump
EU to China: How high?

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## uifgjiyyj

中国崛起！

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## cirr

TaiShang said:


> *China, Russia to Build World's Largest Ranch inHeilongjiang*
> 
> China is taking steps to build a Sino-Russia joint-venture livestock farm in Mudanjiang city, northeastern China's Heilongjiang province, according to a Nandu.com report on Wednesday.
> 
> The ranch is planned to invest 1 billion yuan or 161 million US dollars and will raise 100,000 dairy cattle. Experts believe it will become the world's largest ranch after its completion. *And all the milk and milk products will sell in Russia, said the report. *
> 
> The news aroused concern from the European Union (EU).
> 
> The annual milk production is expected to reach 8 billion liters, said the EU Agriculture Group.
> 
> Russia has just recently extended an embargo against EU milk to the year of 2016.
> 
> Since Russia implemented full embargo against products varying from fruits, vegetable, meats, fish, milk to milk products against the EU, the US, Norwegian and Canada, its needs of Chinese agriculture products increased sharply. Official data shows in the first half of this year, a total 33,900 tons of fruits and vegetables were exported from Heilongjiang to Russia via Heihe, the busiest port along China-Russia border, worth some 17. 23 million US dollars and seeing a 40 percent increase compared to the same period of 2014.



Construction began on a high-speed rail link between Harbin and Mudanjiang in late 2014。The opening date has been set for 2019 when travel time between two cities is expected to be reduced to 1 hour and 30 minutes from 5 hours previously。

What's even better is that the spur from Mudanjiang（牡丹江）to Suifenhe（绥芬河），a town on the Sino-Russian border，is already in operation。

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## terranMarine

TaiShang said:


> The world has changed. Gone are times when the US-led West punished others and left unscathed.
> 
> It is now eye for an eye, as it should be.



There's a reason why the US wants to improve ties with Cuba and Iran.  
With the sanctions lifted, trade between China and Iran will grow even bigger. Plus China played a very important role in the negotiation. The biggest winners are China and Iran, not US.

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## Sommer

Just think Heilongjiang is maybe in winter too cold. Sometimes -35℃。

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## TaiShang

terranMarine said:


> There's a reason why the US wants to improve ties with Cuba and Iran.
> With the sanctions lifted, trade between China and Iran will grow even bigger. Plus China played a very important role in the negotiation. The biggest winners are China and Iran, not US.



China has already been present in Iran's energy, infrastructure and telecommunications sectors. Progress had been slow due to sanctions and Chinese bank's fear to be put on the black list, but, now, there a good chance that they will be all free to do business in Iran. China is definitely well placed for future competition in Iranian market. And Russia can do a lot business, too, especially in arms sales and civilian nuclear energy.

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## ganesh177

rott said:


> China to EU: Jump
> EU to China: How high?


Stop spanking your own A$$, looks disgusting.


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## Beidou2020

ganesh177 said:


> Stop spanking your own A$$, looks disgusting.



Spanking like 1962?

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## Misay

Beidou2020 said:


> Spanking like 1962?


并不值得炫耀的战争，印度依旧占领着藏南。


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## rott

ganesh177 said:


> Stop spanking your own A$$, looks disgusting.


Make sense then come back and comment.

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## Aepsilons

Let's all party !


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## Beidou2020

Good to see Russia and China countering Japanese aggression.

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## black-hawk_101

Tresbon said:


> _By: Sam LaGrone
> July 17, 2015 12:45 PM_
> 
> 
> View attachment 239055
> 
> _Russian sailors aboard a Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy Ship._
> 
> 
> China and Russia will conduct their largest joint Pacific exercise in August near Japan, Russian Navy planners announced on Friday.
> 
> Announced last year, Joint Sea Exercise 2015 will occur in both the Sea of Japan and off the cost of Russian region of Primorsky — about 250 miles away from Japan.
> 
> “These maneuvers will for the first time involve a joint amphibious assault drill in Russia’s Primorsky territory with the participation of carrier-based aircraft,” Russian Pacific Fleet spokesman Roman Martov said, reported the Russian _TASS_ wire service.
> 
> “Representatives of the headquarters of the Russian Pacific Fleet and the Navy of the People’s Liberation Army of China have carried out major work for the planning of the Chinese warships’ visit to Vladivostok port, the cultural program, sports competitions and all the tactical events of the sea, land and air parts of the maneuvers.”
> 
> Since 2011, Russia and China have conducted regular joint exercises.
> 
> 
> View attachment 239056
> 
> _Russian and Chinese ships in the Pacific in 2014. China Daily Photo_
> 
> 
> Last year was the largest series of exercises, the Russian Navy and the PLAN drilled with 14 surface ships, two submarines, aviation assets and special operation forces (SOF), according to Chinese media.
> 
> The Pacific drills follow the first ever joint Chinese-Russian exercise in the Mediterranean sea earlier this year. The much smaller exercise featured three Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) and six Russian.
> 
> In November, said Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the combined military-to-military between China and Russia partnership was growing.
> 
> “We believe that the main goal of pooling our effort is to shape a collective regional security system,” Shoigu said.
> “We also expressed concern over U.S. attempts to strengthen its military and political clout in the [Asia-Pacific Region].”
> 
> 
> China, Russia Planning 20-Ship Naval Exercise in the Sea of Japan in August - USNI News


Any Big reason of flexing up their muscles

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## Aepsilons

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Big reason of flexing up their muscles



Probably has something to do with Japan's participation with the Indian Navy and the US Navy in Malabar; then with the recent Japanese-Philippine Naval Exercises.

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## cirr

The Gulf of Mexico would be a better spot for joint Sino-Russian naval exercises in a few years。

It is international waters，so。。。

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## Aepsilons

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Big reason of flexing up their muscles



In other words our Chinese brothers are so sensitive....lol.



But not as sensitive as @Armstrong



cirr said:


> The Gulf of Mexico would be a better spot for joint Sino-Russian naval exercises in a few years。
> 
> It is international waters，so。。。



LOL, why not at the Bermuda Triangle?

PLAN can into awesome experience !

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## rott

cirr said:


> The Gulf of Mexico would be a better spot for joint Sino-Russian naval exercises in a few years。
> 
> It is international waters，so。。。


Indian Ocean too. 
International waters....

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## ahojunk

cirr said:


> The Gulf of Mexico would be a better spot for joint Sino-Russian naval exercises in a few years。
> 
> It is international waters，so。。。



The Americans would say that's very provocative!

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## Aepsilons

ahojunk said:


> The Americans would say that's very provocative!



the question here is --- can any navy sustain a naval exercise that far away from home? I don't think there are any close friendly ports that can sustain that. Perhaps they can dock in Havana ? lol.


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## TaiShang

How come this silly man is 17 times as smart as the US political establishment?

“You can’t have everybody hating you. The whole world hates us.”






Let's hope he will not get Republican nomination, let alone win presidency.

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## ArsalanKhan21

Donald Trump is actually secretly working for Hillary Clinton by driving all the Hispanic voters to the Democratic Party in 2016 elections.

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## Kyle Sun




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## HttpError

That's what billions of dollars can get you, A Nomination for US presidential elections, there was even an article where big businessmen spent millions of dollars for Obama's presidential election campaign, later on they were rewarded with ambassadorship in good influential countries.

Bottom of the line ? If you have Money you can get anything at-least in this world.


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## TaiShang

HttpError said:


> That's what billions of dollars can get you, A Nomination for US presidential elections, there was even an article where big businessmen spent millions of dollars for Obama's presidential election campaign, later on they were rewarded with ambassadorship in good influential companies.
> 
> Bottom of the line ? If you have Money you can get anything at-least in this world.



That's how politics is done in the US. What is more promising is actually after one leaves the Congress. A lot of doors revolve like hell which the average Joe in the street cannot even imagine, being enslaved by the corporate media and PR politics. 

Typical corporocracy on the brink of 1940s fascism but much more refined and tamed -- but not too much, hence, the police is heavily armed and militarized, and internal security apparatus is gargantuan. 

Not much exceptional.

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## Beidou2020

I like Trump. He called out McCain.

Trump is honest, too honest to be in politics, but honest nonetheless.

He is a successful New York businessman, and you got to be tough to succeed in New York.

He is pure entertainment.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> How come this silly man is 17 times as smart as the US political establishment?
> 
> “You can’t have everybody hating you. The whole world hates us.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's hope he will not get Republican nomination, let alone win presidency.


Actually I hope the Donald win. 另一种强硬的谈话傻瓜

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## ChineseTiger1986

Actually, most Chinese members on PDF hope Trump can win the election.

Because the world's geopolitics are going to be fun as hell if this man is the POTUS.

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> Actually I hope the Donald win. 另一种强硬的谈话傻瓜



Tough guys are most preferable. Hillary is too much worn out.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Actually, most Chinese members on PDF hope Trump can win the election.
> 
> Because the world's geopolitics are going to be fun as hell if this man is the POTUS.



Indeed. There will be lots of fun. But I am not sure US establishment wants him. After all, it is them that really put a figurehead there.

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## Archie

if Trump becomes President, I bet Pakistan Could see Democracy coming over the Horizon of Karachi Harbor

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## Jango

Archie said:


> if Trump becomes President, I bet Pakistan Could see Democracy coming over the Horizon of Karachi Harbor



Trump has as much chance of becoming the President of the US as me! :p


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## NiceGuy

Bcz Mr. Trump cant trade wt CN when TPP come, so he get angry wt Mr.Obama ???

Wow, it make me to remember what Vladimir Ilyich Lenin said: The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.

So, dont let any US bussinessmen to become President or it will be the end of Capitalism


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## saurav

When Donald Trump starts to make sense, you got to applaud Obama's foreign policy.. He enjoyed eight years by just making good slogans.


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## liubang

Donald Trump is not honest. He never was. People think he is entertaining (including me) so they root for him (including me) but he always in the business to promote himself.

He had overtake the first tier candidates of Bush and Walker, second tier Rubio, third tier Paul, Huckabee, Cruz, and Carson due to his inflammatory immigrant remark which does reflect real concerns by a large republican populace. 

Since then he had been competitive in a few states, and winning in Nevada and North Carolina. But the polls of the next few days is extremely crucial. Because it will show whether or not Trump campaign survive this whole Mccain ordeal. He made the right move to me by doubling down. It will done him more harm than good if he had apologize because he can't sway voters that hate him already but at least it will put the bandage on the voters that like his approach. 

His only hope is that candidates don't drop out way too many in the early states. Because although, he is leading in the 20s at the moment but some 60% of the GOP votes will never vote for him. If the race is down to 3 to 4 in early states, he can't win. If the race is still max out as 16 or 10 or even 8, he posed to win some of them and build momentum from there.

Walker look like he will win Iowa. A state that many 3rd tier and 4th tier candidates are vying for, even Rubio. But Walker's ground troops are too strong. He monopolize the endorsements in Iowa. For the past 3 months prior to him enter the race, he had been leading Iowa. Now that he actually in the race and will actively campaign there. Most 3rd and 4th tier candidates are lost hope of actually winning the race. Especially since Bush is gunning for the win in the second state New Hampshire. South Carolina is all depend on what happened in the early two states as seen in 2012. By the end of South Carolina, no more than 5 candidates remain, even as low as 3 candidates. 

If Trump to stand a chance, he need to place at second in Iowa and vying for second in New Hampshire. And try his best to win South Carolina. But by then the field is thin enough that he won't have the support to win it. 

Also, he need the endorsements of the people that dropping out. Especially from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier candidates in the early states. Right now, he pissed off most of them outside of the ****sucker Ted Cruz.


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## third eye

TaiShang said:


> How come this silly man is 17 times as smart as the US political establishment?
> 
> “You can’t have everybody hating you. The whole world hates us.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's hope he will not get Republican nomination, let alone win presidency.



The least harmful things to hear is what a Politician says during electioneering.

.. the least reliable too.


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## liubang

------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting scenarios but very unlikely is that Bush not only lost Iowa but also New Hampshire. He may drop out then. If he isn't and lost South Carolina, then he is done for. Jeb Bush is the most likely to win the GOP primary and if he drop out within the first 3 states, then that is a whole new Pandora Box.


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## ChineseTiger1986

TaiShang said:


> Tough guys are most preferable. Hillary is too much worn out.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. There will be lots of fun. But I am not sure US establishment wants him. After all, it is them that really put a figurehead there.



Trump will be the biggest US gift for China.



NiceGuy said:


> Bcz Mr. Trump cant trade wt CN when TPP come, so he get angry wt Mr.Obama ???
> 
> Wow, it make me to remember what Vladimir Ilyich Lenin said: The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.
> 
> So, dont let any US bussinessmen to become President or it will be the end of Capitalism



You can bet on Hillary.

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## saurav

Only one candidate makes sense right now: Bernie Sanders.. But most likely Hillary will defeat him. Another at least 4 years of mediocre leadership awaits America.


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## Fattyacids

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Actually, most Chinese members on PDF hope Trump can win the election.
> 
> Because the world's geopolitics are going to be fun as hell if this man is the POTUS.



You're absolutely right. Trump for President. He's a lot more entertaining than Sarah Palin.

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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Trump will be the biggest US gift for China.



The next president should definitely solve the crisis in the Middle East, even if this required putting soldiers on the ground. US should finish off the ISIS and the other previously moderate and supported by the US but now turned radical terrorist groups.

US is the only great power capable of doing this. China is just a developing country and has a different foreign policy conceptualization, hence, China must be excused.

US can summon the Britons. They are a good help.

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## TaiShang

How The Donald is Trumping US ‘Fake-ocracy’ / Sputnik International







*Rumour has it that if real estate mogul Donald Trump wins the next US presidency, he is planning to rename the White House – to Trump House.*

Okay, that’s a spoof. But nothing should surprise us about this billionaire realtor-turned-TV-celebrity-turned politician. The 69-year-old is racing ahead in opinion polls leaving other Republican party contenders trailing. He’s foul-mouthed and tacky, sports a ridiculously flamboyant hairstyle, and has an ego to match one of his many eponymous skyscrapers. And Donald Trump is proving to be a hit with the American public.

His racist views on Mexican migrants, whom he labelled “drug dealers and rapists”, far from causing a backlash, seem to have only added to his appeal. Even his latest foray of slamming Republican Senator John McCain as not being a war hero doesn’t seem to have dampened his support.


“I prefer war heroes who don’t get caught by the enemy,” was how he put it, referring to McCain’s captivity as a POW in North Vietnam during the 1970s. Most of the other presidential contenders, including Democrat Hillary Clinton, promptly ganged up to denounce Trump over his contempt for McCain. They said that, this time, the maverick Donald had gone too far by disrespecting the decorated Vietnam War veteran.

Trump, in typical rambunctious fashion, dismissed the complaints and said he would not be making an apology. He even called McCain a “dummy”.

It was McCain who started the spat by first complaining that Trump was “firing up the crazies” among rightwing Americans with his inflammatory views on Latino illegals.* Firing up the crazies? That’s saying something given that McCain himself is accused of crazed extremism owing to his association with Al Qaeda-linked terrorists in Syria and the Neo-Nazi regime in Kiev, as well as his swivelled-eyed warmongering calls against Russia, China and Iran.*

The three-times-married Trump, who is of Scottish and German descent, started his real estate career around the same time that McCain was learning how to use chopsticks in his Vietnamese prison camp. Trump somehow managed to skip the military draft back then due to a foot injury, although when asked recently which foot, he said he couldn’t remember.

Nearly five decades later, The Donald – a nickname coined by his first wife, Czech-born Ivana – has become a magnate with a net worth of $4 billion, according to Forbes magazine. Although the mouthy mogul boasts that he’s actually worth $10 billion. He owns a string of glitzy hotels and casinos – all with the brand name Trump.

Political commentators doubt that Trump will stay the course for the US presidential contest – with the finish line some 16 months away.

The pundits have likened him to a funny act whose role is to warm up the crowd for the more serious performers.

But Trump insists he’s in to win. A powerful weapon in his war chest is money – lots of it and apparently it’s all his own. Unlike other would-be candidates, Trump is not dependent on funders, political action committees or corporate sponsors. That means he can stay in the race for as long as it takes – assuming he wins the Republican Party nomination. It also means that The Donald does not have to couch his words to suit the political interests of donors. He appears to be free to say whatever he wants or whatever comes into his head.

He has denounced fellow Republican Jeb Bush as being a puppet bought by the multi-billionaire Koch brothers. He scoffed at Hillary Clinton’s desire to be the “people’s champion” by quipping about here philandering husband, Bill: “If Hillary can’t satisfy her husband, how is she going to satisfy the nation?”

To say that Trump does not have a coherent set of domestic or foreign policies is an understatement. The best we can say is that his worldview is that of a mega-rich individual who seems to think that running a country is the same as running a business empire. Maybe for America, he’s actually correct in that view.

The prospect of Trump becoming the next American president should fill anyone with the same kind of dread as having a loose cannon inside a submarine.

*But what is enjoyable about this reactionary figure is that his ambitions to become resident in Trump House, er the White House, are serving to totally expose just how farcical and degenerate American politics have become.*

*Divorced from real communities struggling with poverty, unemployment, crime and unprecedented social deterioration, all American candidates for the presidency are akin to manikins propped up in a corporate sales window.* Republican or Democrat, they are all the same, serving the same master of Wall Streets banks and corporate capital. Bernie Sanders, the avowedly socialist Democrat Senator from Vermont, may throw a surprise to win the party’s nomination against Hillary Clinton. But it is doubtful that Sanders will find the financial backing to overcome the corporate-controlled screening process that selects American presidential winners on behalf of the electorate.

*America has long become a fake democracy – a cruel parody of one-person-one-vote – in which corporate dictate is the rule. It is arguable that the US is more accurately a form of financial fascism masquerading under the cover of a cosmetic party-political beauty pageant. And Donald Trump, who owns the media rights to Miss America and Miss Universe, knows a thing or two about such pageants.*

A multi-billionaire property and media mogul becoming the Commander—in-Chief of America, whose political base largely stems from audience-fans of his hit TV show, The Apprentice, is perhaps the ultimate “reality show”.

But this dose of reality is in a paradoxical way a positive revelation. Unlike the incumbent President Barack Obama who conned the American electorate with nostrums of “yes we can” and “hope and change” – but who in reality is a puppet to Wall Street and the military-industrial complex; and unlike the other current contenders for the presidency,* Donald Trump is what you see.*

*The spectacle of this super-rich, arrogant racist who doesn’t even bother to articulate a political program is testimony to the truly ugly and pathetic condition of American democracy.*

That Trump is winning over so many American voters – at least in polls so far – is another sign of how disillusioned ordinary people have become in the prospect of real progress in America. Voting for candidates has become reduced to a surreal spectator event, where the spectator has no real effect on the actual outcome. Maybe that’s why so many people find Trump worthy of support. His reckless mouth at least provides a laugh and the feeling of rebellion against the Washington “fake-ocracy”.

And that is probably why all the other “serious” contenders – whether Republican or Democrat – are now rounding on Trump to pillory him for going too far in his irreverent rhetoric towards other politicians.

*For Trump, through his brash megalomania, is inadvertently making a mockery of that much overblown institution – American democracy.*

To use his popular TV catchphrase, what US voters should be saying to the whole dysfunctional system is: “You’re fired!”



Read more: How The Donald is Trumping US ‘Fake-ocracy’ / Sputnik International

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## CN.Black

It's not Obama who made Russia and China together.It's certain.

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## TaiShang

CN.Black said:


> It's not Obama who made Russia and China together.It's certain.



I agree. That was bound to happen.

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## TaiShang

(CNS Photo)

The construction of Chinese section of a cross-river railway bridge linking the country with Russia has been half completed on July 23, according to the website of China's News Service.

The main body of the Tongjiang-Nizhneleninskoye Railway Bridge has a total lengthen of 2,215 meters, with 1,900 meters in China. It's designed loading capacity reaches 21 million tons annually. The construction of the bridge was started in February 2014 and the bridge erection is expected to be finished by the end of October.




(CNS Photo)





(File Photo)

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## Place Of Space

Good news, this is the second important entry port in north east facilitate regional economy growth for China and Russia.

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## TaiShang

How China and Russia Are Running Rings Around Washington

Pepe Escobar

Let’s start with the geopolitical Big Bang you know nothing about, the one that occurred just two weeks ago. Here are its results: from now on, any possible future attack on Iran threatened by the Pentagon (in conjunction with NATO) would essentially be an assault on the planning of an interlocking set of organizations – the BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa), the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization), the EEU (Eurasian Economic Union), the AIIB (the new Chinese-founded Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank), and the NDB (the BRICS’ New Development Bank) – whose acronyms you’re unlikely to recognize either. Still, they represent an emerging new order in Eurasia.

Tehran, Beijing, Moscow, Islamabad, and New Delhi have been actively establishing interlocking security guarantees.They have been simultaneously calling the Atlanticist bluff when it comes to the endless drumbeat of attention given to the flimsy meme of Iran’s “nuclear weapons program.” And a few days before the Vienna nuclear negotiations finally culminated in an agreement, all of this came together at a twin BRICS/SCO summit in Ufa, Russia – a place you’ve undoubtedly never heard of and a meeting that got next to no attention in the U.S. 

And yet sooner or later, these developments will ensure that the War Party in Washington and assorted neocons (as well as neoliberalcons) already breathing hard over the Iran deal will sweat bullets as their narratives about how the world works crumble.

*The Eurasian Silk Road*

With the Vienna deal, whose interminable build-up I had the dubious pleasure of following closely, Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif and his diplomatic team have pulled the near-impossible out of an extremely crumpled magician’s hat: an agreement that might actually end sanctions against their country from an asymmetric, largely manufactured conflict.

Think of that meeting in Ufa, the capital of Russia’s Bashkortostan, as a preamble to the long-delayed agreement in Vienna. It caught the new dynamics of the Eurasian continent and signaled the future geopolitical Big Bangness of it all. At Ufa, from July 8th to 10th, the 7th BRICS summit and the 15th Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit overlapped just as a possible Vienna deal was devouring one deadline after another.

Consider it a diplomatic masterstroke of Vladmir Putin’s Russia to have merged those two summits with an informal meeting of the Eurasian Economic Union (EEU). Call it a soft power declaration of war against Washington’s imperial logic, one that would highlight the breadth and depth of an evolving Sino-Russian strategic partnership.

Putting all those heads of state attending each of the meetings under one roof, Moscow offered a vision of an emerging, coordinated geopolitical structure anchored in Eurasian integration. Thus, the importance of Iran: no matter what happens post-Vienna, Iran will be a vital hub/node/crossroads in Eurasia for this new structure.

If you read the declaration that came out of the BRICS summit, one detail should strike you: the austerity-ridden European Union (EU) is barely mentioned. And that’s not an oversight. From the point of view of the leaders of key BRICS nations, they are offering a new approach to Eurasia, the very opposite of the language of sanctions.

Here are just a few examples of the dizzying activity that took place at Ufa, all of it ignored by the American mainstream media. In their meetings, President Putin, China’s President Xi Jinping, and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi worked in a practical way to advance what is essentially a Chinese vision of a future Eurasia knit together by a series of interlocking “new Silk Roads.”

Modi approved more Chinese investment in his country, while Xi and Modi together pledged to work to solve the joint border issues that have dogged their countries and, in at least one case, led to war.

The NDB, the BRICS’ response to the World Bank, was officially launched with $50 billion in start-up capital. Focused on funding major infrastructure projects in the BRICS nations, it is capable of accumulating as much as $400 billion in capital, according to its president, Kundapur Vaman Kamath.

Later, it plans to focus on funding such ventures in other developing nations across the Global South – all in their own currencies, which means bypassing the U.S. dollar. Given its membership, the NDB’s money will clearly be closely linked to the new Silk Roads. 

As Brazilian Development Bank President Luciano Coutinho stressed, in the near future it may also assist European non-EU member states like Serbia and Macedonia. Think of this as the NDB’s attempt to break a Brussels monopoly on Greater Europe. Kamath even advanced the possibility of someday aiding in the reconstruction of Syria.

You won’t be surprised to learn that both the new Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank and the NDB are headquartered in China and will work to complement each other’s efforts.

At the same time, Russia’s foreign investment arm, the Direct Investment Fund (RDIF), signed a memorandum of understanding with funds from other BRICS countries and so launched an informal investment consortium in which China’s Silk Road Fund and India’s Infrastructure Development Finance Company will be key partners.

*Full Spectrum Transportation Dominance*

On the ground level, this should be thought of as part of the New Great Game in Eurasia. Its flip side is the Trans-Pacific Partnership in the Pacific and the Atlantic version of the same, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, both of which Washington is trying to advance to maintain U.S. global economic dominance.

The question these conflicting plans raise is how to integrate trade and commerce across that vast region. From the Chinese and Russian perspectives, Eurasia is to be integrated via a complex network of superhighways, high-speed rail lines, ports, airports, pipelines, and fiber optic cables.

By land, sea, and air, the resulting New Silk Roads are meant to create an economic version of the Pentagon’s doctrine of “Full Spectrum Dominance” – a vision that already has Chinese corporate executives crisscrossing Eurasia sealing infrastructure deals.

For Beijing – back to a 7% growth rate in the second quarter of 2015 despite a recent near-panic on the country’s stock markets – it makes perfect economic sense: as labor costs rise, production will be relocated from the country’s Eastern seaboard to its cheaper Western reaches, while the natural outlets for the production of just about everything will be those parallel and interlocking “belts” of the new Silk Roads.

Meanwhile, Russia is pushing to modernize and diversify its energy-exploitation-dependent economy. Among other things, its leaders hope that the mix of those developing Silk Roads and the tying together of the Eurasian Economic Union – Russia, Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan – will translate into myriad transportation and construction projects for which the country’s industrial and engineering know-how will prove crucial.

As the EEU has begun establishing free trade zones with India, Iran, Vietnam, Egypt, and Latin America’s Mercosur bloc (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Venezuela), the initial stages of this integration process already reach beyond Eurasia.

Meanwhile, the SCO, which began as little more than a security forum, is expanding and moving into the field of economic cooperation. Its countries, especially four Central Asian “stans” (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan) will rely ever more on the Chinese-driven Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) and the NDB.

At Ufa, India and Pakistan finalized an upgrading process in which they have moved from observers to members of the SCO. This makes it an alternative G8.

In the meantime, when it comes to embattled Afghanistan, the BRICS nations and the SCO have now called upon “the armed opposition to disarm, accept the Constitution of Afghanistan, and cut ties with Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist organizations.”




Translation: within the framework of Afghan national unity, the organization would accept the Taliban as part of a future government. Their hopes, with the integration of the region in mind, would be for a future stable Afghanistan able to absorb more Chinese, Russian, Indian, and Iranian investment, and the construction – finally! – of a long-planned, $10 billion, 1,420-kilometer-long Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) gas pipeline that would benefit those energy-hungry new SCO members, Pakistan and India. (They would each receive 42% of the gas, the remaining 16% going to Afghanistan.)

Central Asia is, at the moment, geographic ground zero for the convergence of the economic urges of China, Russia, and India. It was no happenstance that, on his way to Ufa, Prime Minister Modi stopped off in Central Asia.

Like the Chinese leadership in Beijing, Moscow looks forward (as a recent document puts it) to the “interpenetration and integration of the EEU and the Silk Road Economic Belt” into a “Greater Eurasia” and a “steady, developing, safe common neighborhood” for both Russia and China.

And don’t forget Iran. In early 2016, once economic sanctions are fully lifted, it is expected to join the SCO, turning it into a G9. As its foreign minister, Javad Zarif, made clear recently to Russia’s Channel 1 television, Tehran considers the two countries strategic partners. “Russia,” he said, “has been the most important participant in Iran’s nuclear program and it will continue under the current agreement to be Iran’s major nuclear partner.” The same will, he added, be true when it comes to “oil and gas cooperation,” given the shared interest of those two energy-rich nations in “maintaining stability in global market prices.”

*Got Corridor, Will Travel*

Across Eurasia, BRICS nations are moving on integration projects. A developing Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar economic corridor is a typical example. It is now being reconfigured as a multilane highway between India and China. Meanwhile, Iran and Russia are developing a transportation corridor from the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman to the Caspian Sea and the Volga River. Azerbaijan will be connected to the Caspian part of this corridor, while India is planning to use Iran’s southern ports to improve its access to Russia and Central Asia. Now, add in a maritime corridor that will stretch from the Indian city of Mumbai to the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas and then on to the southern Russian city of Astrakhan. And this just scratches the surface of the planning underway.

Years ago, Vladimir Putin suggested that there could be a “Greater Europe” stretching from Lisbon, Portugal, on the Atlantic to the Russian city of Vladivostok on the Pacific. The EU, under Washington’s thumb, ignored him. Then the Chinese started dreaming about and planning new Silk Roads that would, in reverse Marco Polo fashion, extend from Shanghai to Venice (and then on to Berlin).

Thanks to a set of cross-pollinating political institutions, investment funds, development banks, financial systems, and infrastructure projects that, to date, remain largely under Washington’s radar, a free-trade Eurasian heartland is being born. It will someday link China and Russia to Europe, Southwest Asia, and even Africa. It promises to be an astounding development. Keep your eyes, if you can, on the accumulating facts on the ground, even if they are rarely covered in the American media. They represent the New Great – emphasis on that word – Game in Eurasia.

*Location, Location, Location*

Tehran is now deeply invested in strengthening its connections to this new Eurasia and the man to watch on this score is Ali Akbar Velayati. He is the head of Iran’s Center for Strategic Research and senior foreign policy adviser to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei. Velayati stresses that security in Asia, the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia, and the Caucasus hinges on the further enhancement of a Beijing-Moscow-Tehran triple entente.

As he knows, geo-strategically Iran is all about location, location, location. That country offers the best access to open seas in the region apart from Russia and is the only obvious east-west/north-south crossroads for trade from the Central Asian “stans.”

Little wonder then that Iran will soon be an SCO member, even as its “partnership” with Russia is certain to evolve. Its energy resources are already crucial to and considered a matter of national security for China and, in the thinking of that country’s leadership, Iran also fulfills a key role as a hub in those Silk Roads they are planning.

That growing web of literal roads, rail lines, and energy pipelines represents Beijing’s response to the Obama administration’s announced “pivot to Asia” and the U.S. Navy’s urge to meddle in the South China Sea. Beijing is choosing to project power via a vast set of infrastructure projects, especially high-speed rail lines that will reach from its eastern seaboard deep into Eurasia. In this fashion, the Chinese-built railway from Urumqi in Xinjiang Province to Almaty in Kazakhstan will undoubtedly someday be extended to Iran and traverse that country on its way to the Persian Gulf.

*A New World for Pentagon Planners*

At the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum last month, Vladimir Putin told PBS’s Charlie Rose that Moscow and Beijing had always wanted a genuine partnership with the United States, but were spurned by Washington. Hats off, then, to the “leadership” of the Obama administration. Somehow, it has managed to bring together two former geopolitical rivals, while solidifying their pan-Eurasian grand strategy.

Even the recent deal with Iran in Vienna is unlikely – especially given the war hawks in Congress – to truly end Washington’s 36-year-long Great Wall of Mistrust with Iran. Instead, the odds are that Iran, freed from sanctions, will indeed be absorbed into the Sino-Russian project to integrate Eurasia, which leads us to the spectacle of Washington’s warriors, unable to act effectively, yet screaming like banshees.

NATO’s supreme commander Dr. Strangelove, sorry, American General Philip Breedlove, insists that the West must create a rapid-reaction force – online – to counteract Russia’s “false narratives.”

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter claims to be seriously considering unilaterally redeploying nuclear-capable missiles in Europe.

The nominee to head the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine Commandant Joseph Dunford, recently directly labeled Russia America’s true “existential threat”; Air Force General Paul Selva, nominated to be the new vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, seconded that assessment, using the same phrase and putting Russia, China and Iran, in that order, as more threatening than the Islamic State (ISIS). In the meantime, Republican presidential candidates and a bevy of congressional war hawks simply shout and fume when it comes to both the Iranian deal and the Russians.

In response to the Ukrainian situation and the “threat” of a resurgent Russia (behind which stands a resurgent China), a Washington-centric militarization of Europe is proceeding apace. NATO is now reportedly obsessed with what’s being called “strategy rethink” – as in drawing up detailed futuristic war scenarios on European soil. As economist Michael Hudson has pointed out, even financial politics are becoming militarized and linked to NATO’s new Cold War 2.0.

In its latest National Military Strategy, the Pentagon suggests that the risk of an American war with another nation (as opposed to terror outfits), while low, is “growing” and identifies four nations as “threats”: North Korea, a case apart, and predictably the three nations that form the new Eurasian core: Russia, China, and Iran.

They are depicted in the document as “revisionist states,” openly defying what the Pentagon identifies as “international security and stability”; that is, the distinctly un-level playing field created by globalized, exclusionary, turbo-charged casino capitalism and Washington’s brand of militarism.

The Pentagon, of course, does not do diplomacy. Seemingly unaware of the Vienna negotiations, it continued to accuse Iran of pursuing nuclear weapons. And that “military option” against Iran is never off the table.

So consider it the Mother of All Blockbusters to watch how the Pentagon and the war hawks in Congress will react to the post-Vienna and – though it was barely noticed in Washington – the post-Ufa environment, especially under a new White House tenant in 2017.

It will be a spectacle. Count on it. Will the next version of Washington try to make it up to “lost” Russia or send in the troops? Will it contain China or the “caliphate” of ISIS? Will it work with Iran to fight ISIS or spurn it? Will it truly pivot to Asia for good and ditch the Middle East or vice-versa? Or might it try to contain Russia, China, and Iran simultaneously or find some way to play them against each other?

In the end, whatever Washington may do, it will certainly reflect a fear of the increasing strategic depth Russia and China are developing economically, a reality now becoming visible across Eurasia. At Ufa, Putin told Xi on the record: “Combining efforts, no doubt we [Russia and China] will overcome all the problems before us.”

Read “efforts” as new Silk Roads, that Eurasian Economic Union, the growing BRICS block, the expanding Shanghai Cooperation Organization, those China-based banks, and all the rest of what adds up to the beginning of a new integration of significant parts of the Eurasian land mass. As for Washington, fly like an eagle? Try instead: scream like a banshee.

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## Twitchingbouse

TaiShang said:


> Tehran, Beijing, Moscow, Islamabad, and New Delhi have been actively establishing interlocking security guarantees.



Once I read this I knew this article was BS There are no interlocking security guarantees between any of those 3! 

Not even Russia and China have a formal defense treaty.


and don't even get me started on Russia or China going to war for Iran, or god forbid India going to war for Pakistan!

When will these 'analysts' understand that BRIC is not a collective for mutual defense, and certainly not a political bloc!

The Eurasian Economic Union is a joke, a sad shadow of Russia trying to regain its soviet past.


As for the Silk Road, no matter how well developed the land infrastructure is, it will always be cheaper and easier to transport by sea, there is no getting around that.


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## Shotgunner51

The top agenda always is Eurasian integration.



TaiShang said:


> Later, it plans to focus on funding such ventures in other developing nations across the *Global South* – all in their own currencies, which means bypassing the U.S. dollar. Given its membership, the NDB’s money will clearly be closely linked to the new Silk Roads. As Brazilian Development Bank President Luciano Coutinho stressed, in the near future it may also assist *European non-EU member states like Serbia and Macedonia*. Think of this as the NDB’s attempt to break a Brussels monopoly on Greater Europe. Kamath even advanced the possibility of someday aiding in the reconstruction of Syria.



Yes, I also shared China's vision on the Global South
Vision on the Global South



TaiShang said:


> From the Chinese and Russian perspectives, Eurasia is to be integrated via a complex network of superhighways, high-speed rail lines, ports, airports, pipelines, and fiber optic cables.



That's one of the major drives for AIIB, i.e. Infrastructures.
“Dear President, how can we help your country?” - AIIB

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## Shotgunner51

Twitchingbouse said:


> Once I read this I knew this article was BS There are no interlocking security guarantees between any of those 3!
> 
> Not even Russia and China have a formal defense treaty.
> 
> 
> and don't even get me started on Russia or China going to war for Iran, or god forbid India going to war for Pakistan!
> 
> When will these 'analysts' understand that BRIC is not a collective for mutual defense, and certainly not a political bloc!
> 
> The Eurasian Economic Union is a joke, a sad shadow of Russia trying to regain its soviet past.
> 
> 
> As for the Silk Road, no matter how well developed the land infrastructure is, it will always be cheaper and easier to transport by sea, there is no getting around that.



True, BRICS is just a term coined by an i-banker, certainly it isn't a political-military pact due to very different geopolitical visions of it "members", however there is a *potential for it to become a sizable trading bloc* and that might have certain influence on world financial order e.g. currency, commodity prices. The combined economy of BRICS (5 countries) are quite sizable:






Compared to BRICS, SCO is a pure Eurasian platform. Neither it is a political-military pact for the same reason like in BRICS, the inclusion of Pakistan & India is a testimony to that, it has always been more focused on *promoting co-operation between Eurasian countries on economy, trade and homeland security*. As an actionable initiative, the OBOR (One Belt One Road) not just comprise of "Eurasian Economic Belt" which aims to promote continental development, the "Maritime Silk Road" also aim at strengthening the traditional sea routes between Europe and the Pacific seaboard of Asia, benefiting all maritime economies in between. The combined economy of the just expanded SCO (8 countries) are quite sizable as well:

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## Tiger Genie

China: stock market bubble bursting; $6T to $26T potential write offs due to provincial & local govt books; completely dependent upon N.American and European retail environment for cash flow; Chinese rushing to move money out of China into US and Europe

Russia: reeling under sanctions and inflation. Oil price & supply killing them 

USA: dollar pretty much dictating; recovery in good swing up; benefiting from Chinese and Russian misery

Pepe Escobar: grasping at straws

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## TaiShang

Tiger Genie said:


> China: stock market bubble bursting; $6T to $26T potential write offs due to provincial & local govt books; completely dependent upon N.American and European retail environment for cash flow; Chinese rushing to move money out of China into US and Europe
> 
> Russia: reeling under sanctions and inflation. Oil price & supply killing them
> 
> USA: dollar pretty much dictating; recovery in good swing up; benefiting from Chinese and Russian misery
> 
> Pepe Escobar: grasping at straws



China: Lacking Modi.

Russia: Lacking Modi

US: Having multiple Modis.

India: For now, just one Modi.

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## Tiger Genie

TaiShang said:


> China: Lacking Modi.
> 
> Russia: Lacking Modi
> 
> US: Having multiple Modis.
> 
> India: For now, just one Modi.




True that. those rings are just gas belts around the stars ..


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## jhungary

I just want to know Russia, China running ring around Washington with what?

There are no strategic partnership, nor cooperation between 2 country, in fact, history have shown time and again China are at the receiving end of Russia thread throughout multiple time during the course of history.

It is actually US running ring around China and Russia by expanding NATO eastward and pivot the other Asian interest against China. Not the other way around.

Russia is more of a problem to China than the US, simply because they share a border with Russia. Just wait until the "Soviet" reborn again.

But seeing this article is written by Pepe Escobar, well, I rest my case.

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## Beidou2020

TaiShang said:


> China: Lacking Modi.
> 
> Russia: Lacking Modi
> 
> US: Having multiple Modis.
> 
> India: For now, just one Modi.



Modi-ji using Vedic math will achieve Kalam the clown's dream of superpower status........by 2012

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## Tiger Genie

Beidou2020 said:


> Modi-ji using Vedic math will achieve Kalam the clown's dream of superpower status........by 2012



is that before or after Xi Ji freezes your stock 'market' from 70% to 100%? But I gotta hand it to Xi and Ji! when they lose they lose in trillions


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## Zhang Fan

Tiger Genie said:


> is that before or after Xi Ji freezes your stock 'market' from 70% to 100%? But I gotta hand it to Xi and Ji! when they lose they lose in trillions


dyyyyymn!! I never thot there's been such a pack of desperate losers from india who are drooling at even the slightest downward fluctuation of China's economy,how creeeepy!your vedic culture never taught you to win like a man lose like a man? a bunch of vicious creepies!we'll only disappoint you more,looooooooozer

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## Tiger Genie

Zhang Fan said:


> dyyyyymn!! I never thot there's been such a pack of desperate losers from india who are drooling at even the slightest downward fluctuation of China's economy,how creeeepy!your vedic culture never taught you to win like a man lose like a man? a bunch of vicious creepies!we'll only disappoint you more,looooooooozer




Even in Mandarin and in Cantonese, freezing trading in 70% of stocks simply means it is not really a 'market'. If you don't get that I can understand your frustrated outburst and name calling. BTW this 2 to 3T loss is just a beginning. Wait till your local government writeoffs start...man that'll really work you up huh !


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## Zhang Fan

Tiger Genie said:


> Even in Mandarin and in Cantonese, freezing trading in 70% of stocks simply means it is not really a 'market'. If you don't get that I can understand your frustrated outburst and name calling. BTW this 2 to 3T loss is just a beginning. Wait till your local government writeoffs start...man that'll really work you up huh !


we got another indian gordon chang from slums playing the clown provding butts of jokes for us to laugh at,cheers!

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## Tiger Genie

Zhang Fan said:


> we got another indian gordon chang from slums playing the clown provding butts of jokes for us to laugh at,cheers!



good, keep up that brave front and yup, drink in moderation however desparate you feel...ciao


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## Shotgunner51

China is building the most extensive global commercial-military empire in history - Quartz
*
Written by* Steve LeVine
June 09, 2015







In the 18th and 19th centuries, the sun famously never set on the British empire. A commanding navy enforced its will, yet all would have been lost if it were not for ports, roads, and railroads. The infrastructure that the British built everywhere they went embedded and enabled their power like bones and veins in a body.

Great nations have done this since Rome paved 55,000 miles (89,000 km) of roads and aqueducts in Europe. In the 19th and 20th centuries, Russia and the United States established their own imprint, skewering and taming nearby territories with projects like the Trans-Siberian and the Trans-Continental railways.

Now it’s the turn of the Chinese. Much has been made of Beijing’s “resource grab” in Africa and elsewhere, its construction of militarized artificial islands in the South China Sea and, most recently, its new strategy to project naval power broadly in the open seas.

Yet these profiles of an allegedly grasping and treacherous China tend to consider its ambitions in disconnected pieces. What these pieces add up to is a whole latticework of infrastructure materializing around the world. Combined with the ambitious activities of Chinese companies, they are quickly growing into history’s most extensive global commercial empire.

A whole latticework of infrastructure… is growing into history’s most extensive global commercial empire.China views almost no place as uncontested. Chinese-financed and -built dams, roads, railroads, natural gas pipelines, ports, and airports are either in place or will be from Samoa to Rio de Janeiro, St. Petersburg to Jakarta, Mombasa to Vanuatu, and from the Arctic to Antarctica. Many are built in service of current and prospective mines, oilfields, and other businesses back to China, and at times to markets abroad.

But while this grand picture suggests a deliberate plan devised in Beijing, it also reflects an unbridled commercial frenzy. Chinese companies are venturing out and doing deals lacking any particular order. Mostly, they’re interested in finding growth abroad that is proving difficult to manage at home. This, too, is typical for a fast-growing power.

“This is very much in line with what we would expect from other great powers whose military posture follows its economic and diplomatic footprint,” Lyle Morris, a China specialist with Rand, told Quartz.

Below are snapshots of components that are either already in place or on the way.

*The story starts with a reimagined Silk Road …*





In September 2013, newly anointed Chinese leader Xi Jinping visited Kazakhstan’s capital, Astana. He was in town to seal the Chinese purchase of a $5 billion stake in Kashagan, one of the world’s largest oilfields. On that trip, he unveiled a plan ultimately dubbed “One Belt, One Road”—a land-and-sea version of the fabled East-West Silk Road trading route.

The idea is audacious in scope.






On land, Beijing has in mind a high-speed rail network (map 2). It will start in Kunming, the capital of Yunnan province, and connect with Laos and on into Cambodia, Malaysia, Myanmar, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.

Another overland network of roads, rail and energy pipelines will begin in Xi’an in central China and head west as far as Belgium (see dotted brown line above). As we’ve written previously, Beijing has already initiated an 8,011-mile cargo rail route between the Chinese city of Yiwu and Madrid, Spain. Finally, another 1,125-mile-long bullet train will start in Kashgar and punch south through Pakistan to the Arabian Sea port of Gwadur. The thinking behind this rail-driven plan isn’t new–as we have written previously, Beijing has been piecing it together for awhile.

At sea, a companion 21st-century Maritime Silk Road (see dotted blue line in map 1) would connect the South China Sea, and the Indian and South Pacific oceans. China would begin to protect its own sea lanes as well. On May 26 it disclosed a strategy for expanding its navy into a fleet that not only hugs its own shores, but can wander the open ocean.

China does not need to build all of these thousands of miles of railroads and other facilities. Much of the infrastructure already exists; where it does, the trick is to link it all together.

Everywhere, new public works will be required. And to make its vision materialize, Beijing must be careful to be seen as generously sharing the big engineering and construction projects. Up to now, such contracts have been treated as rare, big profit opportunities for state-owned Chinese industrial units. These include the China Railway Group, whose already-inflated share prices have often gone up each time another piece of the overseas empire has fallen into place. If local infrastructure companies are excluded from the largesse, there will be push-back on almost every continent.

Much of this infrastructure already exists. The trick is to link it all together.In any case, not all this will necessarily happen. In a recent note to clients, China observer Jonathan Fenby of the research firm Trusted Sources suggested that it may all be too ambitious. China has had a history of announcing and then shelving projects, such as a $3.7 billion railway canceled by Mexico in February amid allegations of local nepotism. Meanwhile, Japan has begun to challenge Chinese plans. It has launched rival bids for billion-dollar high-speed rail and other projects in Indonesia, Thailand and elsewhere, with relatively low-interest loans and sometimes better technology (paywall).

But Beijing seems to recognize its own limits. Rather, the world may help to build at least some of the infrastructure through another Chinese creation—the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, with its 57 founding members, modeled loosely on the World Bank. Projects backed by the bank are meant to be good for the country where they are built. But given China’s outsize influence in the institution, they are certain to include some that fit into its grand scheme of global infrastructure.

*…extends into South America…*






Xi has pledged $250 billion in investment in South America over the next 10 years. The centerpiece is a $10 billion, 3,300-mile, high-speed railroad (dotted red line above) that would start in Acu, near Rio de Janeiro, crossing the Amazon rainforest and the Andes Mountains, and terminate on the Peruvian coast. (NPR’s Tom Ashbrook conducted an excellent hour-long program on the railroad.)

On top of that, there’s an advanced proposal by Chinese billionaire Wang Jing to build a 170-mile-long, $50 billion canal through Nicaragua.

*…and also across Africa*






In January, China agreed with the African Union to help build railroads (map 4), roads, and airports to link all 54 African countries. These plans are already under way, including a $13 billion, 875-mile-long coastal railroad in Nigeria; a $3.8 billion, 500-mile-long railroad connecting the Kenyan cities of Nairobi and Mombasa; a $4 billion, 460-mile railway linking the Ethiopian cities of Addis Ababa and Djibouti; and a $5.6 billion, 850-mile network of rail lines in Chad.

Then there are China’s maritime ambitions. These envision modern ports in the Tanzanian capital, Dar es Salaam; the Mozambican capital, Maputo; Libreville, Gabon; the Ghanaian city of Tema; and the Senegalese capital, Dakar.

All these land and marine projects align with existing Chinese natural-resource investments on the continent. For example, the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) has large oil projects in Chad and Mozambique, and Chinese manufacturers are fast setting up Ethiopian factories that rely on cheap local labor.

*The new Chinese empire is enveloping its neighbors …*






In addition to its planned high-speed rail network into Malaysia and Singapore (map 2) and Laos (map 5) into southeast Asia (see map 5 for Laotian portion), China plans a canal across the Isthmus of Kra in *Thailand, *adeep-water container port and industrial park in Kuantan, *Malaysia*, and a$511-million expansion of Male airport in the *Maldives*.

*… and nations further afield in the Pacific*






China wants to dominate not only the South and East China seas, but far into the Pacific (map 6). According to the Lowy Institute, transportation comprises by far the largest portion of $2.5 billion in Chinese assistance and commercial credit to South Sea nations. Among the projects are:

*Fiji*: A $158 million hydroelectric plant and several sports complexes, including the 4,000-seat Vodafone stadium in Suva.

*Samoa*: A $100 million hospital in Apia, a $40 million terminal and upgraded runway at Faleolo Airport, and a $140 million wharf at Vaiusu.

*Tonga*: A $12 million government building to be called St. George Palace, and two small Chinese turboprop aircraft for domestic routes aboard Real Tonga airlines. The aircraft deal has been controversial because neither of the planes are certified for use in the West.

*Vanuatu*: Two more turboprops, this time for Air Vanuatu, and $60 million to build a Port Vila campus of the University of the South Pacific and a Parliament House (both loans have been forgiven).

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## Shotgunner51

*Pakistan is pivotal to China’s Silk Road …*






Why has China lavished $42 billion in infrastructure projects on Pakistan? The two have always been allies. But China has a particular goal: It wants to contain Uighur separatists who have been fomenting violence in the western province of Xinjiang. Some of these separatists have sanctuaries in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and Beijing has pushed hard for both countries to hand over Uighurs living there.





But sending goods through Pakistan (map 7) also helps China avoid the Malacca Strait (map 8). Much of Beijing’s oil and other natural resources passes through this narrow, 500-mile-long stretch of sea between Malaysia and Indonesia. China worries that, if its relations with Washington become truly hostile, the US could theoretically blockade the strait and starve the country of its lifeblood resources. That is in large part why Beijing is financing a deep Arabian Sea port at Gwadur, and the 1,125-mile-long super-highway, high-speed railway and oil-pipeline route to the Chinese city of Kashgar.

*… as is Central Asia …*





Central Asia has been an almost exclusively Russian playground for almost two centuries. It still is when it comes to pure muscle. But in matters of cash, China is fast moving in.

The relationship revolves around oil and natural gas. *Turkmenistan* supplies more than half of China’s imported gas. It gets there through three, 1,150-mile-long pipelines; a fourth pipeline is soon to begin construction. China is the only foreign nation that Turkmenistan allows to drill for gas onshore, in particular from Galkynysh, the second-largest gasfield in the world. China’s $5 billion share of the Kashagan oilfield in *Kazakhstan* is one of its largest oil stakes anywhere. Xi also has signed $15 billion in gas and uranium deals in *Uzbekistan*.

*… and Russia*





Two years ago, Russia announced a pivot towards China. The centerpiece of the shift is two natural-gas pipelines (the larger of the two is the dotted red line in map 9) through which a fifth of China’s gas imports would flow. The deal had some snags, but they reportedly have been worked out, and construction is to begin soon. In addition, China is to build a $242 billion, 4,300-mile high-speed railway from Beijing to Moscow, a two-day trip compared with the current six-day Trans-Mongolian Express.

*China is speeding up how fast goods get to Europe …*





*… and has piled into US real estate*





For now, the Chinese web of infrastructure does not extend to the US. Instead, what has been built elsewhere is serving as a jumping-off point to the gigantic US market. High-speed trains are only now starting to be planned in the US, and Chinese firms are front-runners to win contracts, including a $1 billion contest for the San Francisco-to-Los Angeles route, expected to be worth $68 billion. China’s CNR Corp. is already providing 284 passenger cars worth $566 million to the Boston subway system.

Another big splash: the United States is China’s favored destination for real estate investment (see chart above). This has included commercial jewels such as New York’s Waldorf Astoria ($1.95 billion to Angbang Insurance) and the Chase Manhattan Plaza ($725 million to Fosun). But the bigger sums have been spent in all-cash deals by wealthy Chinese for residential properties (pdf, page 12).

*Last but not least, China has polar ambitions*





Though the closest Chinese territory gets to the Arctic Circle is a thousand miles away, China nonetheless calls itself a “near-Arctic state.” Chinese oil company Cnooc has a majority share in Iceland’s Dreki oil and natural gas field, and Beijing established the Arctic Yellow River Station, a permanent research facility on Norway’s Spitsbergen Island. In Antarctica, China has four research stations, structures that allow nations to stake a claim to the continent. Plans for a fifth station at a place called Inexpressible Island are under way. It is positioning itself to move for the continent’s resources when a 1959 treaty guaranteeing its wilderness status expires in 2048.

Some of the infrastructure China is creating around the world will align with Western economic interests. But to the extent that it does, that will be inadvertent. Some of the most modern transportation infrastructure going up not only in China, but around the developing world, is deliberately _linked_ to China. It is meant to make the global economy a friendly place for Chinese commerce.

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## Beidou2020

Tiger Genie said:


> is that before or after Xi Ji freezes your stock 'market' from 70% to 100%? But I gotta hand it to Xi and Ji! when they lose they lose in trillions



You didn't know? Modi-jis vedic revolution will do miracles, all you need is a pen. 
Bang! 5% added to 'GDP'......Vedic style

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## Beidou2020

Japan is screwed. Russia and China uniting to counter Japanese aggression.

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## opruh

Abe-san must be pissing his pants right now.

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## Tiger Genie

Beidou2020 said:


> You didn't know? Modi-jis vedic revolution will do miracles, all you need is a pen.
> Bang! 5% added to 'GDP'......Vedic style



you're late to the party @Beidou2020 Sleeping at the wheel are you? Your buddy zhang fan beat you to it!!! wake up before they send you off


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## Zhang Fan

Tiger Genie said:


> good, keep up that brave front and yup, drink in moderation however desparate you feel...ciao


indian,go do something meaningful instead of wishing the one way superior than you to collapse,every time you bringed up your entertaining+resentful "predictions", you sounded like a grumble pus*y cursing the stronger who had ill-treated you,we've never been in the same league and will never be,the past has proved india is too subpar and lame for us to even call you a competitor,so please leave us alone and go bother someone else like somalia or afghan same of your league

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## Hindustani78

Updated: July 31, 2015 19:27 IST 
Russia and China set to counter U.S.-led "Asia Pivot" in the Pacific - The Hindu





Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks as he attends a Navy parade in Baltiisk, western Russia, Sunday, July 26, 2015 during celebrations for Russian Navy Day.

*The Russians unveiled their new doctrine last Sunday on board the frigate Admiral Gorshkov, and in the presence of President Vladimir Putin.*
Russia has released a new naval doctrine that singles out China as its core partner in the Pacific, signaling Moscow and Beijing’s push towards countering the Japan backed “Asia Pivot” of the United States.

The Russians unveiled their new doctrine last Sunday on board the frigate Admiral Gorshkov, and in the presence of President Vladimir Putin.

Regarding the Pacific, the amended naval doctrine, which will be valid till 2020, underscored that friendly ties with China in the Pacific were one of the cornerstones of Moscow’s new policy. "Cooperating with China and other countries in the region is a crucial part of carrying out the nation's maritime policy," Russia's maritime strategy stressed.

Moscow and Beijing appear to have responded strongly to Japan’s budding post-war doctrinal shift, which will allow Tokyo to deploy its armed forces overseas even without an imminent threat to Japanese

territory or citizens. Opponents say that the two security bills being debated in Parliament could draw Tokyo into U.S.-led conflicts around the globe. Specifically, the legislations can cement Washington’s “Asia Pivot” doctrine which envisages that 60 per cent of the total US armed forces would be deployed under the Pacific Command, with China as its focal point.

A scathing Xinhua commentary had earlier this month slammed the billsas manifesting Japan’s return to its militarist past.

On Thursday, Chinese Defence Ministry spokesman, Yang Yujun reinforced the attack by trashing Japan’s demand that China halt construction of oil drilling platforms in the East China Sea. "Japan's recent and

frequent finger-pointing is to create and play up the 'China Threat,' so as to find excuses for passing controversial security bills," observed Mr. Yang. The Defence Ministry also pointed out that the oil platforms, of which the Japanese had released pictures, were being legitimately established within China’s territorial waters.

In parallel, the Russo-Japanese ties are also now under increasing strain. Earlier this month, Russian Defence Minister, Sergei Shoigu announced that troops on Kuril islands, disputed by Japan, will be rearmed. On their part the Japanese have raised an alarm about a Russian military build-up in the east of the country, including on the Kuril Islands.

The clearest signal that the Russians and the Chinese were factoring the reinforcement of the U.S.-Japan military alliance in the Pacific came on July 7 when it was announced that Moscow and Beijing will

conduct joint military exercises in the Sea of Japan. The Russian Navy’s Pacific fleet will deploy 20 warships as well as aircraft and helicopters, in the August drill, which is a follow up of a similar exercise that the two countries had held in the Mediterranean Sea two months ago.

At the heart of the tensions in the Pacific are the South China Sea maritime disputes, which have pitted China against Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia and Brunei. The Chinese have been incensed by the seven hour surveillance mission that was personally undertaken in the South China by Admiral Scott Swift — the U.S. Pacific fleet commander. earlier this month. On Thursday, the Chinese Defence Ministry went ballistic by accusing the U.S. of militarising the South China Sea. "China is extremely concerned at the United States' pushing of the militarisation of the South China Sea region," Mr. Yang observed.

China has added punch to its rhetoric with the deployment last Tuesday of more than 100 Chinese naval vessels and dozens of military aircraft during military manoeuvres in the South China Sea.

Aligning Moscow’s perception with the Chinese, Russian Deputy Defence Minister Anatoly Antonov observed in May that the U.S. was the main de-stabilising factor in the Asia-Pacific.

"We are concerned by US policies in the region, especially since every day it becomes increasingly focused on a systemic containment of Russia and China," _Russia Today_ quoted him as saying.

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## Gufi

Hindustani78 said:


> Russia has released a new naval doctrine that singles out China as its core partner in the Pacific, signaling Moscow and Beijing’s push towards countering the Japan backed “Asia Pivot” of the United States.


interesting turn of events.... will try trusted bonds in the region


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## MAJESTICAL

China and Russia showing eyes to Us-Japan eh


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## Tiger Genie

Zhang Fan said:


> indian,go do something meaningful instead of wishing the one way superior than you to collapse,every time you bringed up your entertaining+resentful "predictions", you sounded like a grumble pus*y cursing the stronger who had ill-treated you,we've never been in the same league and will never be,the past has proved india is too subpar and lame for us to even call you a competitor,so please leave us alone and go bother someone else like somalia or afghan same of your league




Don't get so perturbed Zhangji....I am not saying China is hopeless. Just pointing out that until and unless China has another revolution and hopefully a less tyrannical system of governance, there is no chance for China to run any rings around any people oriented system. All you will ever be is glorified walmart suppliers - and as evidence of that I just showed you what happens when your government tried to 'open' the stock market ...next thing you know it collapsed, the CPC had to ORDER brokerages to keep buying to artificially shore up AND stop trading in some 70% of all stock! See, it is not enough to just improve roads while leaving your people in a primitive stage!


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## Beidou2020

Tiger Genie said:


> Don't get so perturbed Zhangji....I am not saying China is hopeless. Just pointing out that until and unless China has another revolution and hopefully a less tyrannical system of governance, there is no chance for China to run any rings around any people oriented system. All you will ever be is glorified walmart suppliers - and as evidence of that I just showed you what happens when your government tried to 'open' the stock market ...next thing you know it collapsed, the CPC had to ORDER brokerages to keep buying to artificially shore up AND stop trading in some 70% of all stock! See, it is not enough to just improve roads while leaving your people in a primitive stage!



As opposed to India being a glorified call centre for your English-speaking masters? 

When the Hindus get rid of that backward caste system and stop raping women and hanging them on trees, then you can call the Indians semi-civilised. Until then, Indians will remain one of the most primitive species on earth.

The thing is, Indians and Africans breed like rats and use up the resources of the world but 90% of the population Indian and African population are illiterate which means the contribution of India and Africa to the world is negligible.

Btw, let me know when the Indians get introduced to indoor plumbing

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## Tiger Genie

Beidou2020 said:


> The thing is, Indians and Africans breed like rats and use up the resources of the world but 90% of the population Indian and African population are illiterate which means the contribution of India and Africa to the world is negligible.



this shows how civilized you are....fortunately most of the chinese I know are much better people than you, so I won't lash back.


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## TheTruth

Tiger Genie said:


> this shows how civilized you are....fortunately most of the chinese I know are much better people than you, so I won't lash back.



People-run governments are not infallible. There are too many examples to the contrary for me to really believe this.

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## Gauss

It will take time but soon enough american sanctions on any country will be meaningless. American control over the global financial system allows it to sanction countries but that control will indeed disappear as China Russia and other non allied countries fill up their coffers.

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## Raphael

Reshuffling Eurasia’s energy deck — Iran, China and Pipelineistan: Escobar | Asia Times

Pipelineistan – the prime Eurasian energy chessboard — never sleeps. Recently, it’s Russia that has scored big on all fronts; two monster gas deals sealed with China last year; the launch of Turk Stream replacing South Stream; and the doubling of Nord Stream to Germany.

Now, with the possibility of sanctions on Iran finally vanishing by late 2015/early 2016, all elements will be in place for the revival of one of Pipelineistan’s most spectacular soap operas, which I have been following for years; the competition between the IP (Iran-Pakistan) and TAPI (Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India) gas pipelines.

The $7.5-billion IP had hit a wall for years now – a casualty of hardcore geopolitical power play. IP was initially IPI – connected to India; both India and Pakistan badly need Iranian energy. And yet relentless pressure from successive Bush and Obama administrations scared India out of the project. And then sanctions stalled it for good.

Now, Pakistan’s Minister of Petroleum and Natural Resources Shahid Khaqan Abbasi swears IP is a go. The Iranian stretch of the 1,800-kilometer pipeline has already been built. IP originates in the massive South Pars gas fields – the largest in the world – and ends in the Pakistani city of Nawabshah, close to Karachi. The geopolitical significance of this steel umbilical cord linking Iran and Pakistan couldn’t be more graphic.

Enter – who else? – China. Chinese construction companies already started working on the stretch between Nawabshah and the key strategic port of Gwadar, close to the Iranian border.

China is financing the Pakistani stretch of IP. And for a very serious reason; IP, for which Gwadar is a key hub, is essential in a much larger long game; the $46 billion China-Pakistan economic corridor, which will ultimately link Xinjiang to the Persian Gulf via Pakistan. Yes, once again, we’re right into New Silk Road(s) territory.

And the next step regarding Gwadar will be essential for China’s energy strategy; an IP extension all the way to Xinjiang. That’s a huge logistical challenge, implying the construction of a pipeline parallel to the geology — defying Karakoram highway.

IP will continue to be swayed by geopolitics. The Japan-based and heavily US-influenced Asian Development Bank (ADB) committed a $30 million loan to help Islamabad build its first LNG terminal. The ADB knows that Iranian natural gas is a much cheaper option for Pakistan compared to LNG imports. And yet the ADB’s agenda is essentially an American agenda; out with IP, and full support to TAPI.

This implies, in the near future, the strong possibility of Pakistan increasingly relying on the China-driven Asian Infrastructure Development Bank (AIIB) for infrastructure development, and not the ADB.

Recently, the IP field got even more crowded with the arrival of Gazprom. Gazprom also wants to invest in IP – which means Moscow getting closer to Islamabad. That’s part of another key geopolitical gambit; Pakistan being admitted as a full member, alongside India, of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), something that will happen, soon, with Iran as well. For the moment, Russia-Pakistan collaboration is already evident in an agreement to build a gas pipeline from Karachi to Lahore.

*Talk to the (new) Mullah*

So where do all these movements leave TAPI?

The $10 billion TAPI is a soap opera that stretches all the way back to the first Clinton administration. This is what the US government always wanted from the Taliban; a deal to build a gas pipeline to Pakistan and India bypassing Iran. We all know how it all went horribly downhill.

The death of Mullah Omar – whenever that happened – may be a game changer. Not for the moment, tough, because there is an actual Taliban summer offensive going on, and “reconciliation” talks in Afghanistan have been suspended.

Whatever happens next, all the problems plaguing TAPI remain. Turkmenistan – adept of self-isolation, idiosyncratic and unreliable as long as it’s not dealing with China – is a mystery concerning how much natural gas it really holds (the sixth largest or third largest reserves in the world?)

And the idea of committing billions of dollars to build a pipeline traversing a war zone – from Western Afghanistan to Kandahar, not to mention crossing a Balochistan prone to separatist attacks — is nothing short of sheer lunacy.

Energy majors though, remain in the game. France’s Total seems to be in the lead, with Russian and Chinese companies not far behind. Gazprom’s interest in TAPI is key – because the pipeline, if built, would certainly be connected in the future to others which are part of the massive, former Soviet Union energy grid.

To complicate matters further, there is the fractious relationship between Gazprom and Turkmenistan. Until the recent, spectacular Chinese entrance, Ashgabat depended mostly on Russia to market Turkmen gas, and to a lesser extent, Iran.

As part of a nasty ongoing dispute, Turkmengaz accuses Gazprom of economic exploitation. So what is Plan B? Once again, China. Beijing already buys more than half of all Turkmen gas exports. That flows through the Central Asia-China pipeline; full capacity of 55 billion cubic meters (bcm) a year, only used by half at the moment.

China is already helping Turkmenistan to develop Galkynysh, the second largest gas field in the world after South Pars.

And needless to add, China is as much interested in buying more gas from Turkmenistan – the Pipelineistan way – as from Iran. Pipelineistan fits right into China’s privileged “escape from Malacca” strategy; to buy a maximum of energy as far away from the U.S. Navy as possible.

So Turkmenistan is bound to get closer and closer, energy-wise, to Beijing. That leaves the Turkmen option of supplying the EU in the dust – as much as Brussels has been courting Ashgabat for years.

The EU pipe dream is a Pipelineistan stretch across the Caspian Sea. It won’t happen, because of a number of reasons; the long-running dispute over the Caspian legal status – Is it a lake? Is it a sea? – won’t be solved anytime soon; Russia does not want it; and Turkmenistan does not have enough Pipelineistan infrastructure to ship all that gas from Galkynysh to the Caspian.

Considering all of the above, it’s not hard to identify the real winner of all these interlocking Pipelineistan power plays – way beyond individual countries; deeper Eurasia integration. And so far away from Western interference.

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## Aepsilons

Raphael said:


> IP will continue to be swayed by geopolitics. The Japan-based and heavily US-influenced Asian Development Bank (ADB) committed a $30 million loan to help Islamabad build its first LNG terminal. The ADB knows that Iranian natural gas is a much cheaper option for Pakistan compared to LNG imports. And yet the ADB’s agenda is essentially an American agenda; out with IP, and full support to TAPI.
> 
> This implies, in the near future, the strong possibility of Pakistan increasingly relying on the China-driven Asian Infrastructure Development Bank (AIIB) for infrastructure development, and not the ADB.



Good luck with that, however, the reality is that the ADB will continue to help fund projects, energy driven assets and more , in Pakistan and around Pakistan. 

Good Luck to you, Good Luck to Us.

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## Raphael

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Good luck with that, however, the reality is that the ADB will continue to help fund projects, energy driven assets and more , in Pakistan and around Pakistan.
> 
> Good Luck to you, Good Luck to Us.



Cheap energy for Pakistan, and especially for Gwadar, can only benefit us. I'm glad to see Pakistan get all the assistance it can for energy infrastructure.

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## Aepsilons

Raphael said:


> Cheap energy for Pakistan, and especially for Gwadar, can only benefit us. I'm glad to see Pakistan get all the assistance it can for energy infrastructure.



Pakistan is a developing, and fairly large nation, she will need and require the help of her partners around the world. To which Japan is part of. The ADB will continue to fund projects for Pakistan, now, and in the indefinite future.

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## opruh

AIIB should fund some projects in Pakistan, not the ADB.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Pakistan is a developing, and fairly large nation, she will need and require the help of her partners around the world. To which Japan is part of. The ADB will continue to fund projects for Pakistan, now, and in the indefinite future.




Security situation is getting better.. Economy is improving but Pak is energy starved... 

P.S; Pak isn't used in a "fem" sense..

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## Aepsilons

Raphael said:


> Cheap energy for Pakistan, and especially for Gwadar, can only benefit us. I'm glad to see Pakistan get all the assistance it can for energy infrastructure.



Why should Pakistan be solely dependent on only Chinese funding? Do you actually think that China is the only source of investment in Pakistan? Perhaps you should look into the development of Pakistan since inception. Anyways, I am proud to say that Japan and Pakistan have a long history of cooperation, from the civil engagement level, to the strategic level, to the economic. 

I believe there is room for growth. 

Some positive news:

---------------------

*ADB to disburse $400m for energy to Pakistan*

*ISLAMABAD: Executive Director of Asian Development Bank (ADB) belonging to Pakistan, Sami Saeed on Tuesday informed Finance Minister Ishaq Dar that another $400 million were ready to be disbursed to Pakistan after the ADB’s Board approval under the Energy Sector Reforms Programme.
*


Federal Minister for Finance Senator Mohammad Ishaq Dar had a meeting with the Executive Director, Asian Development Bank (ADB) Mr. Sami Saeed here Tuesday.The Finance Minister welcomed the ADB Executive Director and shared with him details of his recent visit to Beijing for signing Articles of Agreement of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB). The Minister also exchanged views with Mr. Sami Saeed on ADB’s development programmes in Pakistan.



Mr. Sami Saeed said that AIIB had an important role to play for infrastructure development in Asian countries, specifically Pakistan, where the Government was focused on the energy, infrastructure and communication projects.



He said that the establishment of AIIB would help ADB in becoming more competitive and come up with better investment plans for its development partners. He added that Pakistan government’s positive measures for economic reforms had earned confidence of foreign investors who were eager to invest in mega projects in the country.



Mr. Sami Saeed also referred to Finance Minister’s meetings in Baku where he had presented Pakistan’s case for financing requirements in an emphatic manner and said that ADB was considering enhancing funding for Pakistan.



He informed the minister that ADB had approved on 30th June the amount of $225 million for the flood affectees out of which 65% will be for retroactive financing. Another $400 million were ready to be disbursed to Pakistan after the Board approval under the Energy Sector Reforms Programme. He informed the Minister that ADB was planning to contribute towards “Disaster Management Fund” for Pakistan along with other donors, enhancing the country’s capacity to guard against natural calamities.



The Finance Minister appreciated the support of ADB for Pakistan and said “ADB has been a great development partner for Pakistan. We appreciate its fair and independent working procedures. The Bank has always extended great support to Pakistan and we hope that it would continue to support Pakistan in future also”. 

ADB to disburse $400m for energy to Pakistan - thenews.com.pk



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Security situation is getting better.. Economy is improving but Pak is energy starved...



Indeed, my friend, Pakistan is definitely attracting more international investors. 

Interview: ‘Japanese are very interested to invest in Pakistan’ –Japanese Ambassador Hiroshi Inomata | Pakistan Today

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Why should Pakistan be solely dependent on only Chinese funding? Do you actually think that China is the only source of investment in Pakistan? Perhaps you should look into the development of Pakistan since inception. Anyways, I am proud to say that Japan and Pakistan have a long history of cooperation, from the civil engagement level, to the strategic level, to the economic.


Pakistan doesn't want to be solely dependant on China.. We are trying our best to rope in investors from around the world... But the reality is that China is the largest investor in the country... And more than helpful in funding infrastructure projects...


Also I really hope that this energy crisis is resolved soon... After 2009 ., the PPP govt did nothing except corruption ... No power generation projects nothing... And due to that we are seeing one of the worst energy crisis ever... Probably the worst ever... And due to a massive shortfall of 2000?MWs ... Industries are t working on full capacity,cottage industries have shutdown with even Pak businessmen moving to countries like Bangladesh (which got atleast 13-14 billion $ investment from Pak)... Despite the govt current govt providing gas and electricity to industrial areas (at the cost of people).. It's barely enough... IP,TAPI,nuclear plants,solar energy plants,hydro and "coal" projects have been mostly launched .. And we can hope that by 2018 the country will completely overcome this issue... Ironic part is that it was Pak that was trying to export electricity and today we are forced to buy electricity from Iran to light up Gwadar distt.


But yes we are grateful for Japanese help !

But personally I'd love to see Honda ,Toyota and Suzuki put out of business in Pak... They and their local partners are literally looting people ! People str forces to pay like 8000 $ for a shitty 80s model 700?cc tin can..

And over .3 million $ for land cruisers etc.. Hopefully VW will soon establish their plant here and give some competition to local manufacturers and assemblers who have formed a Monoply here.

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## Obambam

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> But the reality is that China is the largest investor in the country... And more than helpful in funding infrastructure projects...



Where and who we are is something that nobody can change. We are each other's immediate neighbours, our diplomatic and brotherly relations are time tested. It is only natural that we look to one another first before anyone else for our internal and regional affairs.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Obambam said:


> Where and who we are is something that nobody can change. We are each other's immediate neighbours, our diplomatic and brotherly relations are time tested. It is only natural that we look to one another first before anyone else for our internal and regional affairs.



Of course my friend... We have lived and traded with eachother since thousands of years... And having time tested brotherly relations it comes as no surprise... May we prosper !

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> IP will continue to be swayed by geopolitics. The Japan-based and heavily US-influenced Asian Development Bank (ADB) committed a $30 million loan to help Islamabad build its first LNG terminal. The ADB knows that Iranian natural gas is a much cheaper option for Pakistan compared to LNG imports. And yet the ADB’s agenda is essentially an American agenda; out with IP, and full support to TAPI.
> 
> This implies, in the near future, the strong possibility of Pakistan increasingly relying on the China-driven Asian Infrastructure Development Bank (AIIB) for infrastructure development, and not the ADB.



AIIB should definitely play more into the geopolitical yoke the US places upon Japan's neck and surpass slowly the ADB for regional integration and infrastructure projects.

That's a great window of opportunity and nobody knows when Japan will get rid of the US or the vice versa.

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## TaiShang

Gauss said:


> It will take time but soon enough american sanctions on any country will be meaningless. American control over the global financial system allows it to sanction countries but that control will indeed disappear as China Russia and other non allied countries fill up their coffers.



Indeed. That's a struggle fought on multiple fronts, but, more decidedly, on economic/development fronts. For now, at least.

Certain USers might perceive it as a weakness that China might not have a alliance-strategy similar of the US (hub and spokes and all other types). But this is not a lack of ability, but simply a choice of strategy. China does it differently hence the almost intellectual incapability of the certain US strategists whose minds are fixated in the good old Cold War years where the Soviets used to play just to the tune of the Western bloc.

Gone are the days.

Now China makes them play by its own tune, putting pressure here and there and forcing them into re-action.

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## TaiShang

*Largest China-Russia navy drills to be staged*

The navies of China and Russia will hold *their first ever joint landing drills during a large-scale naval exercise later this month in the Sea of Japan.*

Experts say this reflects the deepened military cooperation between the two sides.

The two countries will conduct their largest joint Pacific exercise from August 20 to 28.

According to the plan, phase II of Joint Sea Exercise 2015 will be held in both the Sea of Japan and off the coast of Russian region of Primorsky - about 250 miles away from Japan.

Military commentator Song Xiaojun says the location of the exercise is of strategic significance.

"The situation in the Sea of Japan has become volatile especially after US President Barack Obama announced the so-called Return to Asia plan three years ago and enhanced assistance to Japan. Taking into account Japan's latest move to lift the ban on the right to collective defense that strengthens the Japan-US alliance and Russia-US confrontation in East Europe, tensions in the sea area may escalate. Meanwhile, the area neighbors Russia's sparsely-populated Far East and China's northeast that is undergoing rejuvenation, so both China and Russia want to enhance defense there." 

Largest China-Russia navy drills to be staged - People's Daily Online

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## opruh

Good to see the forces of good cooperating with each other.


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## xunzi

When we are ready as in 2020s, 2030s at latest, I want to see a military defense pact (similar to US-UK) in which China/Russia will cooperate closely to defend our interest abroad through military force and alliance, which included providing advance weapons to our alliance system in SCO.

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## sicsheep

BEIJING — China and Russia will hold joint military drills in the waters and airspace of the Sea of Japan, Beijing said Thursday, the latest defenSe cooperation between the countries.

The exercises will take place Aug. 20-28 in the Peter the Great Gulf and other areas off the Russian coast, Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun told reporters.

A key purpose of the drills was to "further enhance their capabilities of jointly coping with maritime security threats," Yang said, adding they will include training in air defense, anti-submarine and surface warfare, and
landings.

China will send seven naval ships including a destroyer and a frigate, along with fighter jets and other aircraft, Yang said. Russia's contingent will include surface vessels, submarines and fixed wing
aircraft, he said, adding that both sides will dispatch ship-borne helicopters
and marines.

The drills come as Beijing and Moscow intensify cooperation in military, political and economic spheres.

In May they conducted their first joint naval exercises in European waters in the Black Sea and Mediterranean. It was China's farthest ever naval
exercise from its home waters.

Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin hold frequent summits and their countries, both permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, often take similar stances there on divisive
issues such as the conflict in Syria.

The waters of the Peter the Great Gulf, south of Vladivostok, are close to where the borders of Russia, China and North Korea come together.

Beijing and Tokyo are at odds over islands in the East China Sea farther south controlled by Japan but claimed by China, though both sides have made efforts to cool tensions through dialogue, including meetings between Xi and Japanese prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

The Japanese government last week claimed that China has put 16 drilling rigs close to its de facto maritime border with Japan, claiming China could exploit undersea reserves over which the two countries are at loggerheads.
Yang dismissed Tokyo's claims.

'The purpose of the Japanese accusation against China is to create and play up the China threat theory," he said, adding it provided Japan "an excuse" for new defencse legislation.

Japan's lower house of parliament this month approved controversial laws to allow Japanese troops to fight alongside allies when under attack, which has raised concerns in China that Tokyo will take a more robust military stance.

China is planning a huge military parade in early September to commemorate victory over Japanese forces as well as the broader defeat of the Axis powers in World War II. Russian troops will participate. China's military took part in a march in Moscow in May also marking the end of the conflict.

China, Russia To Hold Joint Naval, Air Drill

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## sicsheep

@Nihonjin1051 

Before you posted Japan -Russia coast guard drill pictures,

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## Aepsilons

Good to see the developing naval engagement between our Russian friends and China. Here's to more mature cooperation between the two.



sicsheep said:


> @Nihonjin1051
> 
> Before you posted Japan -Russia coast guard drill pictures,






Hopefully we can see more training with these handsome Russian sailors between our handsome Japanese sailors in the JMSDF !

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## Aepsilons




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## CCP

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Hopefully we can see more training with these handsome Russian sailors between our handsome Japanese sailors in the JMSDF !




Those handsome Russian sailors like to training with your handsome japanese fishing man.

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## Raphael

Washington’s Fifth Columns Inside Russia and China - The Unz Review

It took two decades for Russia and China to understand that “pro-democracy” and “human rights” organizations operating within their countries were subversive organizations funded by the US Department of State and a collection of private American foundations organized by Washington. The real purpose of these non-governmental organizations (NGOs) is to advance Washington’s hegemony by destabilizing the two countries capable of resisting US hegemony.

Washington’s Fifth Columns pulled off “color revolutions” in former Russian provinces, such as Georgia, the birthplace of Joseph Stalin and Ukraine, a Russian province for centuries.

When Putin was last elected, Washington was able to use its Fifth Columns to pour thousands of protesters into the streets of Russia claiming that Putin had “stolen the election.” This American propaganda had no effect on Russia, where the citizen back their president by 89%. The other 11% consists almost entirely of Russians who believe Putin is too soft toward the West’s aggression. This minority supports Putin as well. They only want him to be tougher. The actual percentage of the population that Washington has been able to turn into treasonous agents is only 2-3 percent of the population. These traitors are the “Westerners,” the “Atlantic integrationists,” who are willing for their country to be an American vassal state in exchange for money. Paid to them, of course.

But Washington’s ability to put its Fifth Columns into the streets of Moscow had an effect on insouciant Americans and Europeans. Many Westerners today believe that Putin stole his election and is intent on using his office to rebuild the Soviet Empire and to crush the West. Not that crushing the West would be a difficult thing to do. The West has pretty much already crushed itself.

China, obsessed with becoming rich, has been an easy mark for Washington. The Rockefeller Foundation is supporting pro-American Chinese professors in the universities. US corporations operating in China create superfluous “boards” to which the relatives of the ruling political class are appointed and paid high “directors’s fees.” This compromises the loyalty of the Chinese ruling class.

Hoping to have compromised the Chinese ruling class with money, Washington then launched its Hong Kong NGOs in protests, hoping that the protests would spread into China and that the ruling class, bought with American money, would be slow to see the danger.

Russia and China finally caught on. It is amazing that the governments of the two countries that Washington regards as “threats” were so tolerant of foreign-financed NGOs for so long. The Russian and Chinese toleration of Washington’s Fifth Columns must have greatly encouraged the American neoconservatives, thus pushing the world closer to conflict.

But as they say, all good things come to an end. The Saker reports that China finally has acted to protect itself from Washington’s subversion: China’s NGO Law: Countering Western Soft Power and Subversion, by Eric Draitser | THE OCEANIA SAKER

Russia, also, has acted in her defense: Kicked out of Russia: Moscow Challenges Washington’s Orwellian “National Endowment for Democracy” | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Also: Why Russia Shut Down National Endowment for Democracy (NED) Fronts | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

We Americans need to be humble, not arrogant. We need to acknowledge that American living standards, except for the favored One Percent, are in long-term decline and have been for two decades. If life on earth is to continue, Americans need to understand that it is not Russia and China, any more than it was Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia, that are threats to the US. The threat to the US resides entirely in the crazed neoconservative ideology of Washington’s hegemony over the world and over the American people.

This arrogant goal commits the US and its vassal states to nuclear war.

If Americans were to wake up, would they be able to do anything about their out-of-control-government? Are Europeans, having experienced the devastating results of World War I and World War II, capable of understanding that the incredible damage done to Europe in those wars is minuscule compared to the damage from nuclear war?

If the EU were an intelligent and independent government, the EU would absolutely forbid any member country from hosting a US anti-ballistic missile or any other military base anywhere close to Russia’s borders.

The Eastern European lobby groups in Washington want revenge on the Soviet Union, an entity that is no longer with us. The hatred transmits to Russia. Russia has done nothing except to have failed to read the Wolfowitz Doctrine and to realize that Washington intends to rule the world, which requires prevailing over Russia and China.

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## 55100864

LOLLLLL.....第五纵队！
Actually, US is not the only country having these Fifth Columns in China. every time Sino-US relation get closer, you see tons of anti-US article in several major chinese forums and social media by posters paid by Russia and Japan, but Washington’s Fifth Columns is unmatched, those Russian, Japanese and European “organizations" in china are child plays.

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## Hypersonicmissiles

It's amazing that Russia and China were blind to the true agenda of these NGOs.

Even I knew what these NGOs are all about but the Russian and Chinese leaders were unaware.

I think PDF members are more aware of the smaller details of things than governments. Governments are too focused on the big picture, they ignore the smaller details.

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## opruh

China needs to kick those NGOs out asap.

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## opruh

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Good to see the developing naval engagement between our Russian friends and China. Here's to more mature cooperation between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully we can see more training with these handsome Russian sailors between our handsome Japanese sailors in the JMSDF !


Russian sailors looks good, not the same can be said about the Japanese ones.

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## Raphael

Russia and China set to counter U.S.-led "Asia Pivot" in the Pacific - The Hindu

*Russia has released a new naval doctrine that singles out China as its core partner in the Pacific, signaling Moscow and Beijing’s push towards countering the Japan backed “Asia Pivot” of the United States.*

The Russians unveiled their new doctrine last Sunday on board the frigate Admiral Gorshkov, and in the presence of President Vladimir Putin.

Regarding the Pacific, the amended naval doctrine, which will be valid till 2020, underscored that friendly ties with China in the Pacific were one of the cornerstones of Moscow’s new policy. "Cooperating with China and other countries in the region is a crucial part of carrying out the nation's maritime policy," Russia's maritime strategy stressed.

Moscow and Beijing appear to have responded strongly to Japan’s budding post-war doctrinal shift, which will allow Tokyo to deploy its armed forces overseas even without an imminent threat to Japanese

territory or citizens. Opponents say that the two security bills being debated in Parliament could draw Tokyo into U.S.-led conflicts around the globe. Specifically, the legislations can cement Washington’s “Asia Pivot” doctrine which envisages that 60 per cent of the total US armed forces would be deployed under the Pacific Command, with China as its focal point.

A scathing Xinhua commentary had earlier this month slammed the billsas manifesting Japan’s return to its militarist past.

On Thursday, Chinese Defence Ministry spokesman, Yang Yujun reinforced the attack by trashing Japan’s demand that China halt construction of oil drilling platforms in the East China Sea. "Japan's recent and

frequent finger-pointing is to create and play up the 'China Threat,' so as to find excuses for passing controversial security bills," observed Mr. Yang. The Defence Ministry also pointed out that the oil platforms, of which the Japanese had released pictures, were being legitimately established within China’s territorial waters.

In parallel, the Russo-Japanese ties are also now under increasing strain. Earlier this month, Russian Defence Minister, Sergei Shoigu announced that troops on Kuril islands, disputed by Japan, will be rearmed. On their part the Japanese have raised an alarm about a Russian military build-up in the east of the country, including on the Kuril Islands.

The clearest signal that the Russians and the Chinese were factoring the reinforcement of the U.S.-Japan military alliance in the Pacific came on July 7 when it was announced that Moscow and Beijing will

conduct joint military exercises in the Sea of Japan. The Russian Navy’s Pacific fleet will deploy 20 warships as well as aircraft and helicopters, in the August drill, which is a follow up of a similar exercise that the two countries had held in the Mediterranean Sea two months ago.

At the heart of the tensions in the Pacific are the South China Sea maritime disputes, which have pitted China against Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia and Brunei. The Chinese have been incensed by the seven hour surveillance mission that was personally undertaken in the South China by Admiral Scott Swift — the U.S. Pacific fleet commander. earlier this month. On Thursday, the Chinese Defence Ministry went ballistic by accusing the U.S. of militarising the South China Sea. "China is extremely concerned at the United States' pushing of the militarisation of the South China Sea region," Mr. Yang observed.

China has added punch to its rhetoric with the deployment last Tuesday of more than 100 Chinese naval vessels and dozens of military aircraft during military manoeuvres in the South China Sea.

Aligning Moscow’s perception with the Chinese, Russian Deputy Defence Minister Anatoly Antonov observed in May that the U.S. was the main de-stabilising factor in the Asia-Pacific.

"We are concerned by US policies in the region, especially since every day it becomes increasingly focused on a systemic containment of Russia and China," _Russia Today_ quoted him as saying.

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## badguy2000

obviously ,CHina does not look on Russia as its core partner.


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## Economic superpower

Japan is finished.

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## Tractor

And a base in Vladivostok for Chinese navy should be there.

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## vostok

Tractor said:


> And a base in Vladivostok for Chinese navy should be there.


What?

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## jhungary

This is quite obvious don't you think?
???
If not China, who else? Japan? South Korea? Philippine? Canada? United States? or Mexico?

I guess they can always single out North Korea as a core allies in the Pacific but kind of a meh point...

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## Tractor

vostok said:


> What?


Russian just now occupying Chinese beachs and as an exchange...

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## vostok

Tractor said:


> Russian just now occuping Chinese beachs and as an exchange...


Oh, I see, it was a joke.


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## ahojunk

Raphael said:


> Moscow and Beijing appear to have responded strongly to Japan’s budding post-war doctrinal shift, which will allow Tokyo to deploy its armed forces overseas even without an imminent threat to Japanese



The Russians and Chinese are giving a non too subtle signal to the Japanese.
----
Also, should the American and Europeans decide to put boots on the ground in Syria, the Japanese will be there.
Hurray!

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## Tom99

badguy2000 said:


> obviously ,CHina does not look on Russia as its core partner.



I believe you got that wrong. If not Russia then who is China's core naval partner in the Pacific? You think Japan?

Even though China's naval ship doesn't go to Black Sea much but you probably can consider Russia be China's core naval partner there too.

China is able to handle the current problems/disagreements in East sea and SCS by itself , but it is always good to have a friend that you can work with for other problems that might arise in the future in the same area.

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## Yizhi

....


.

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## Aepsilons

Yizhi said:


> ....
> 
> 
> .




Partying without me? Jealous ....

@Yizhi i thought we were brothers?? 

So you and @TaiShang and company decided to toss me to the corner eh ? I already know AndreJin doesn't like me....

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## opruh

Japan! Says Russia and China

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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Partying without me? Jealous ....
> 
> @Yizhi i thought we were brothers??
> 
> So you and @TaiShang and company decided to toss me to the corner eh ? I already know AndreJin doesn't like me....



Kick out the undesired USers and join the club 

That would make a bloody power bloc in the Pacific. Isn't that what all pan-Asianists dream about?

Otherwise, got to watch it from not too afar...

Russia, China to Hold Joint Naval Drills

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## IsaacNewton

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Partying without me? Jealous ....
> 
> @Yizhi i thought we were brothers??
> 
> So you and @TaiShang and company decided to toss me to the corner eh ? I already know AndreJin doesn't like me....


Not sure how to include Japan in that cartoon. Japan has no recognizable national animal.

USA is often represented by a bald eagle
Russia the brown bear
China a panda or the red communist dragon
India the elephant

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## Hypersonicmissiles

IsaacNewton said:


> Not sure how to include Japan in that cartoon. Japan has no recognizable national animal.
> 
> USA is often represented by a bald eagle
> Russia the brown bear
> China a panda or the red communist dragon
> India the elephant



Japan is represented by a puppet.

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## TaiShang

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Japan is represented by a puppet.


 
LOL.

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## ahojunk

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Japan is represented by a puppet.





You are not very kind.

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## TaiShang

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Japan is represented by a puppet.


 
LOL.



ahojunk said:


> You are not very kind.



Hopefully our friends from Japan will take it as a friendly reminder. We like to see them to be independent fully. That's all about it.

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## Aepsilons

IsaacNewton said:


> Not sure how to include Japan in that cartoon. Japan has no recognizable national animal.



Traditionally, Japan is represented as a Crane.

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## Yizhi

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Partying without me? Jealous ....
> 
> @Yizhi i thought we were brothers??
> 
> So you and @TaiShang and company decided to toss me to the corner eh ? I already know AndreJin doesn't like me....



 i thought we just had some fun in the calligraphy thread? why you sound so sad?



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Traditionally, Japan is represented as a Crane.




panda...crane....






.

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## mike2000 is back

Yizhi said:


> ....
> 
> 
> .



Ahahahah....
Must say its a nice one. Like the drawing, they both look cute.

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## Aepsilons

Yizhi said:


> i thought we just had some fun in the calligraphy thread? why you sound so sad?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> panda...crane....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




You're right, we did have fun in the Calligraphy Thread. 










mike2000 is back said:


> Ahahahah....
> Must say its a nice one. Like the drawing, they both look cute.



Adorably cute, I must say.


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## LowPost

There was that Chinese political cartoon which represented Japan as a _midget _of some sort, compared to the giant Chinese panda, the Russia bear and the American eagle. 



Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Japan is represented by a puppet.

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## Huan

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Traditionally, Japan is represented as a Crane.


@Nihonjin1051 , I was thinking of today's Japan being represented by Hello Kitty or something cute. LOL


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## HRM YANG

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Partying without me? Jealous ....
> 
> @Yizhi i thought we were brothers??
> 
> So you and @TaiShang and company decided to toss me to the corner eh ? I already know AndreJin doesn't like me....


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## DaiViet

Raphael said:


> wtf? No, we never worship Viets. Viets don't even respect themselves, always selling themselves to the highest bidder, so how can any or their neighbors worship them?


What about Sun Wukong? Why there are many movies about this monkey?


conkhi said:


> No my brother, it is we conkhis who represent Vietnam. See my avatar that's our national symbol, that's what we worship


Oh god, don't show me that terrify picture. Torturing animal are not fun, this reminds me of Sino-Vietnam war 1979 where Chinese are death terrifying.


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## rcrmj

Huan said:


> @Nihonjin1051 , I was thinking of today's Japan being represented by *Hello Kitty* or something cute. LOL



Kitty is British, 100% British born, google it

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## TaiShang

*The US would love to see regime change in China, but Washington understands that the Chinese government remains firmly in control, political analyst Eric Draitser told Sputnik; therefore, the US is throwing its NGOs into the fray to do the "dirty work."*

Although Moscow and Beijing have in the past tolerated the activity of US-based NGOs in Russia and China, *they have since come to view the organizations as provocative and destructive, and have at long last decided to bring them to the end,* by passing legislation aimed at preserving the countries' sovereignty and independence.

Unsurprisingly, their moves have met with harsh criticism from the West.

*"The main reason why the West is so upset about Russia and China's moves to curb the influence of foreign NGOs is because these NGOs represent a critical element of the West's projection of soft power in these countries, and around the world. The NGOs act as a de facto arm of western intelligence and governments, helping to further the objectives of Washington and its allies," *US geopolitical analyst and Stopimperialism.com editor Eric Draitser told Sputnik.

Paul Craig Roberts: 'US Wants to Coerce Russia Into Submission'

"This may take the form of civil society penetration, human rights propaganda, or infiltration into fields such as academia, political activism, or popular media.  As such, these NGOs form a very potent weapon in the arsenal of Western countries, whose goal is to influence the hearts and minds of the targeted countries. Russia and China, being the two primary geopolitical obstacles to US and Western hegemony, are of course the primary targets," the analyst pointed out.

Curiously enough, these US government-funded entities are usually called "non-governmental" organizations, which at first glance have nothing to do with politics.

*"NGOs provide Washington with political and diplomatic cover, and what they might call "plausible deniability." Essentially, the US is able to throw up its hands and act as if it is uninvolved in the activities of the NGOs. In other words, it allows the US to engage in dirty tricks while keeping its hands clean," Draitser elaborated.*

Washington’s Fifth Columns Inside Russia and China

In one of his latest articles, "China's NGO Law: Countering Western Soft Power and Subversion," Draitser nailed Washington for its consistent attempts to destabilize China via a network of various NGOs. He pointed out that the infamous "Umbrella Revolution" movement in Hong Kong was closely connected with "key organs of US soft power," such as the National Democratic Institute (NDI) and the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

Furthermore, America's NGOs have long been adding fuel to the fire of ethnic tensions in Xinjiang, spreading distorted information about the situation in the region and consistently demonizing Beijing.* The same National Endowment for Democracy (NED) has been sponsoring a number of Uighur interest groups in western China for years, including the World Uighur Congress, Uighur American Association, International Uighur Human rights and Democracy Foundation, and the International Uighur PEN Club, among others.*

So, does it mean that Washington is planning to unleash a Maidan-style revolt in China?

"The US would love to see regime change in China, but they are not so naive as to believe that such a scenario is likely in the near or medium term. Washington understands perfectly that, despite the doomsday prognostication of the corporate media, the Chinese government and Communist Party are firmly in control, that the political and financial systems are not nearly volatile and weak enough for a Maidan style strategy," Draitser told Sputnik.

"However, the US would like to lay the groundwork for just such a destabilization in the future. That's why Washington has worked so hard to recruit younger generations into the NGO complex in order to indoctrinate the next generation of leaders into a US-centric, West-centric worldview that will allow the West a far better chance at regime change down the road," the geopolitical analyst emphasized.

Bad News for US: China, Russia Bolstering Military Cooperation in Asia

Despite the fact that China has long served as "the factory" for US consumer goods and its role as one of Washington's largest trading partners, the Chinese "threat" to US hegemony in the region outweighs the decades of mutually beneficial partnership.

Thus far, US corporations have rushed to make "lucrative manufacturing deals with other countries in the region (Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, etc.) where wages are even lower than in China, and which could serve as potential substitutes for China, were that deemed in the interests of the powers that be," Draitser highlighted.

However, "Beijing utterly rejects the notion that its government should take a back seat to Western interests," the analyst stressed.

*American geo-strategists are sweating bullets about further Sino-Russian rapprochement, and consider it a tremendous hindrance to US hegemony in the Asia Pacific region and beyond.*

"Washington is now apparently launching its plan to break up the Russian-Chinese alliance before it can solidify," Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy warned in his latest interview with Sputnik, noting that China's economy is still closely integrated with America's.

Is Washington able to lure Beijing away from Moscow in the near future?

"The US would love to lure China away from Russia, but the simple fact is that they cannot. US influence over China is not nearly what it once was, and under Xi Jinping, China has become ever more assertive regarding issues of sovereignty and strategy," Eric Draitser told Sputnik.

At the same time, Washington is cutting its own throat by alienating China through aggressive policy in the South China Sea and the militarization of the region.

"Remember that, aside from the NGOs, the US has antagonized China in the South China Sea, and with the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands issue. In both regions, the US has essentially tried to goad China into a direct confrontation, which to their credit, the authorities in Beijing have resisted," the geopolitical analyst stressed.

Meanwhile Russia and China are growing closer, he noted, referring to the country's bilateral infrastructure, energy and security projects, and of course the famous Beijing-led New Silk Road initiative.

"To suggest that the US could team with China against Russia (as it did decades ago) is, in my view, simply anachronistic," Eric Draitser concluded.



Read more: Soft Power in Action: Washington Would Love to See Regime Change in China / Sputnik International

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## cirr

Yet the thick skinned have the audacity to close Confucius Institute。

These slimy people are base and have no sense of shame。

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## TaiShang

cirr said:


> Yet the thick skinned have the audacity to close Confucius Institute。
> 
> These slimy people are base and have no sense of shame。



This is despite the fact that Confucius Institutes never do spying. 

US NGOs, on the other hand, are literally fifth-column terrorist organizations.

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## TaiShang

Russia, China to hold WWII-themed film festival

A festival of World War II-era Soviet movies will be shown in China for the first time ever, Russia's state movie fund Gosfilmofond said Monday.

The "Eternal Flame" retrospection will be held from Aug. 26 to Sept. 12 in Beijing and the eastern Chinese city of Suzhou, Gosfilmofond said in a statement.

*The festival is devoted to the 70th anniversary of Soviet and Chinese joint victory in WWII over German and Japanese aggressors, the statement said.*

In total, seven movies will be shown. None of them has been shown in China before.

Russia, China to hold WWII-themed film festival - People's Daily Online

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## opruh

There should be a documentary on how Japan was bombed back to stone age.

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## TaiShang

*US backs China & Russia, blow to Indian UNSC dream*

Aug 11, 2015, TOI

NEW DELHI: India's official dream of getting a permanent seat in the UN Security Council was dealt a decisive blow with the US teaming up with China and Russia to oppose negotiations for changes in the body. 

After a long and laborious process of discussions, countries have finally come out with a framework text which could be the basis of negotiations to reform the Security Council — not only to admit more countries as permanent members, but also to make its working more transparent. The text was the result of inter-governmental negotiations (IGN) and was introduced in the UN General Assembly by its president Sam Kutesa on August 1. 

The text, which may continue to be debated, however, has a short effective life after three biggies —US, China and Russia — came out against it, making any negotiations little more than an academic exercise. 

The US stand was a blow largely because its has been what New Delhi believed the most recent and important voice supporting India's permanent UNSC membership. In a letter, the US said, "The IGN is the most appropriate forum for these discussions. It is critical that any reform proposal enjoy broad consensus among member states." Sources said it's just diplomatese for pushing the can down the road. 

Indian officials say the IGN was really not going anywhere, but it has become the flavour of the season with all the nay-sayers like US, Russia and China. Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto". 

While India will not stake its partnership with the US on its non-support, it does make things awkward. PM Narendra Modi has recently written a long letter to all 193-member countries of the UN pushing India's case in the UNSC. Indian diplomats believe text-based negotiations are its best chance to get into the UNSC. 

Russia, India's oldest supporter for the UNSC seat, also supported the inter-governmental negotiations, rejecting the text-based one. "The intergovernmental negotiations on the UN Security Council reform should proceed in a calm, transparent and inclusive atmosphere free from artificial deadlines. If a consensus on this issue is not possible to achieve, then in any case it will be politically necessary to secure the support by the overwhelming majority of the member-states — a substantially greater number than the legally required two thirds of votes at the General Assembly," it said. That, say diplomats, will be almost impossible to achieve. 

China has remained a steadfast opponent to the process of UNSC reform, and has been the unofficial sponsor of the 13-nation group UfC. So China's opposition to the negotiations is not a surprise. Beijing has used its considerable clout in Africa, Asia and Latin America to build opinion against the text process. 

In its response, Beijing said it would refuse to "populate" the document. Outlining its position, China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.

The five clusters of key issues concerning Security Council reform are interrelated, and should not be addressed in isolation of each other. It is imperative to stick to the approach of a package solution." Indicating that it might be difficult to ever get China's support, it put out what appears to be an impossible position — "No solution on which member-states are seriously divided or approach that may cause division among member-states will have China's support."

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## baajey

HMMM AWKWARD SITUATION.
BTW, CAN INDIA LEAVE THE UN ?? after a dramatic Bhutto-ish dialogue baazi, of course.

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## badguy2000

1.USA doesn't allow CHina to have more votes of IMF and World bank, China just set up AIIB and Silk Road FUND to marginalize WB and IMF.
And now, WB/IMF are more eager to give CHinese more Vetos than China itself ,Otherwise, bouth would be replaced by AIIB/Silk Road FUnd sooner or later and got diabled like "the league of Nation".

2.if India were able to set up a Parallel or alternative of UN ,just as CHina does with WB/IMF, India would be offered a Veto of UN .

Thus, India had better spend its energy and money on developing its economy, instead of wasting money/time appealing Veto of UN now before its might deseves a veto.

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## Economic superpower

LOL just like what everyone said will happen.

None of the UNSC members will ever give anyone veto power. Veto power is the only thing that matters in UNSC.

Wait for the Indian-bots to start crying in.....3.....2.....1

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

Only democratic country should be part of UNSC. India is not in hurry to get permanent seat in SC. India is maintaining peace in the region and in the world without getting any seat. It is time to improve our economy , right now India don't want to interfere in other countries affairs. So no need such power.


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## Providence

Lots of foreign policy activism or lack thereof in case of India is driven by domestic sensitivities. With such a situation, India cannot be allowed to be a part of UNSC. Plain and simple. 

On that table for big boys, we take decisions based on collective agreements and with a principle of give and take irrespective of how much fierce differences we have outside the table. India (when it talks about a diligent track record also brings with it a track record of dilly dallying indecisive behaviour ). Once again I must stress, UNSC cannot be a hostage to domestic turmoil in some place.

Also, India playing neutral most of the time hardly brings any marginal benefit in the working of UNSC. 

We might reconsider after maybe 15 years.

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## badguy2000

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Only democratic country should be part of UNSC. India is not in hurry to get permanent seat in SC. India is maintaining peace in the region and in the world without getting any seat. It is time to improve our economy , right now India don't want to interfere in other countries affairs. So no need such power.



"democratic UNSC" is not UN,but G7.

it has existed for decades......

if so, India has not been offter a seat of G7,purely because India's backward economy does not deserve it.

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> Lots of foreign policy activism or lack thereof in case of India is driven by domestic sensitivities. With such a situation, India cannot be allowed to be a part of UNSC. Plain and simple.
> 
> On that table for big boys, we take decisions based on collective agreements and with a principle of give and take irrespective of how much fierce differences we have outside the table. India (when it talks about a diligent track record also brings with it a track record of dilly dallying indecisive behaviour ). Once again I must stress, UNSC cannot be a hostage to domestic turmoil in some place.
> 
> Also, India playing neutral most of the time hardly brings any marginal benefit in the working of UNSC.
> 
> We might reconsider after maybe 15 years.



When was the last time UNSC did anything right to begin with ? I have been saying form the very beginning, this organization is useless. India should just let i t be...


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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> *Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC... But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".*



This is the key part.

They will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".

Obviously. Why would any of the P5 members dilute their own power like that?

And a UNSC seat means nothing without veto power.

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## Economic superpower

Victory for China 

No veto for you India

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## Providence

Star Wars said:


> When was the last time UNSC did anything right to begin with ? I have been saying form the very beginning, this organization is useless. India should just let i t be...



Okay. Please just let it be..

I have always asked what marginal benefit would india being a member of UNSC bring to the organisation ? The answer I got was - a billion people would be represented. To me those facts doesn't matter. A failing country like Italy with 100 times less population has similar GDP as you guys.



badguy2000 said:


> "democratic UNSC" is not UN,but G7.
> 
> it has existed for decades......
> 
> if so, India has not been offter a seat of G7,purely because India's backward economy does not deserve it.



That's because India is not in top7 world economies in nominal terms. It's not a rocket science. Why is india complaining I don't understand.

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## Chinese-Dragon

And I constantly hear from Indian members that we just have to "wait and see", and that India will join the P5 in a few years time.

I would tag them, but I don't remember their names. No need either, all the old threads regarding UNSC reform are preserved on this site.

The basic underlying fact is that the P5 members are not going to dilute their own veto power. It makes no sense at all.

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> Okay. Please just let it be..
> I have always asked what marginal benefit would india being a member of UNSC bring to the organisation ? The answer I got was - a billion people would be represented. To me those facts doesn't matter. A failing country like Italy with 100 times less population has similar GDP as you guys.



How has the rest of the countries benefited UNSC ? not to mention America who is expert at bypassing or finding loopholes in the UN to constantly fight wars with either one country or the other. India is a regional power, carries considerable influence and is a rapidly growing economy if UN had any semblance rational thought, they would include India. But its not about peace its about power and influence. Which is just a Mirage as all the 5 countries wants to go 5 different ways...

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## Providence

Star Wars said:


> How has the rest of the countries benefited UNSC ? not to mention America who is expert at bypassing or finding loopholes in the UN to constantly fight wars with either one country or the other. India is a regional power, *carries considerable influence* and is a rapidly growing economy if UN had any semblance rational thought, they would include India. But its not about peace its about power and influence. Which is just a Mirage as all the 5 countries wants to go 5 different ways...



Like on what ? Give specifics

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> Like on what ? Give specifics



Regional influence in South Asia , Leading BBIN , BRICS member ,Second most influential member in the AIIB. Has goodwill and Influence in Afghanistan and Iran..

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## Providence

Chinese-Dragon said:


> And I constantly hear from Indian members that we just have to "wait and see", and that India will join the P5 in a few years time.
> 
> I would tag them, but I don't remember their names. No need either, all the old threads regarding UNSC reform are preserved on this site.
> 
> The basic underlying fact is that the P5 members are not going to dilute their own veto power. It makes no sense at all.



They would but the pros have to outweigh the cons. 

Cons is UNSC will become a clusterfck and I am yet to see an indian member highlighting any Pros.



Star Wars said:


> Regional influence in South Asia , Leading BBIN , BRICS member ,Second most influential member in the AIIB.



Regional influence in South Asia ? Like ? Quote instances !

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> Regional influence in South Asia ? Like ? Quote instances !



Do you know what BBIN is ?



Providence said:


> I am yet to see an indian member highlighting any Pros.
> !



lol, as if they had any Pro's to begin with. How many wars have taken place since World War 2 which has directly involved the P5 members themselves ?

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## Providence

Star Wars said:


> Regional influence in South Asia , Leading BBIN , BRICS member ,Second most influential member in the AIIB. Has goodwill and Influence in Afghanistan and Iran..



What are you talking man ? I am asking you to quote scenarios when that influence was used. List the top 10.

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## Mr.Nair

Economic superpower said:


> LOL just like what everyone said will happen.
> 
> None of the UNSC members will ever give anyone veto power. Veto power is the only thing that matters in UNSC.
> 
> Wait for the Indian-bots to start crying in.....3.....2.....1



Buddy because of UN perm security council member, russia is not under economic sanction and china is not crying for US involvement in SCS !

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## Providence

Star Wars said:


> lol, as if they had any Pro's to begin with. How many wars have taken place since World War 2 which has directly involved the P5 members themselves ?



They didn't, agreed.

But the equity of the position in the table has grown over the years because of UN's track record howsoever bad it may be. There's no parallel to it.

I will give you a common analogy. A venture starts with it's share price equal to junk. Over the years because it managed to survive, it grew considerably. Obviously the share price would be premium after 50+ years into operations


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## Speeder 2

Chinese-Dragon said:


> And I constantly hear from Indian members that we just have to "wait and see", and that India will join the P5 in a few years time.
> 
> I would tag them, but I don't remember their names. No need either, all the old threads regarding UNSC reform are preserved on this site.
> 
> The basic underlying fact is that the P5 members are not going to dilute their own veto power. It makes no sense at all.



Another basic underlying fact is that the chairs of P5 veto members are made by hard and real power, not boastful yet begging style of Indian rhetorics.

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## badguy2000

Mr.Nair said:


> Buddy because of UN perm security council member, russia is not under economic sanction and china is not crying for US involvement in SCS !




well, guys ,pls remember:


1.it is because UNSC has P5 as its big daddies that UNSC is something important.

it is not because P5 has the veto of UNSC that P5 are somebody mighty
it is always because of their powerful industry/decent R&D ,instead of "Veto" ,that P5 are mighty


2. UNSC is just a tool of P5 keeping their political previldges.

if UNSC doesn't not obey P5 or are not useful any more , P5 would just set up another alternatives tool and abadon UNSC as used toiliet tissues..

In fact, they did so with "the league of Nation" last time.

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## Mr.Nair

badguy2000 said:


> well, guys ,pls remember:
> 
> 
> it is because UNSC has P5 as its big daddies that UNSC is something important.
> 
> it is not because P5 has the veto of UNSC that P5 are somebody mighty
> 
> 
> 
> it is always because of their powerful industry/decent R&D ,instead of "Veto" ,that P5 are mighty



Powerful industry & recent R&D then Japan and Gemany will be the likely candidate than some of the members.The P5 is an outdated one with old world war legacy !

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> What are you talking man ? I am quoting scenarios when that influence was used. List the top 10.



1. India supported Vietnam's independence from France, opposed American involvement in the Vietnam War, and supported unification of Vietnam. During the Vietnam War, India supported the North, albeit not by conducting military hostilities against the South. This can be contrasted with the policies of the US, who strongly supported the South and engaged in military conflict with the North, albeit without issuing an official declaration of war.

2.1971 war Liberation of Bangladesh

3. LTTE, Not the best example, but there you go... and it happened. LTTE was also destroyed using help from India

4. India's economic presence and goodwill in Afghanistan has grown considerably ever since 9/11

5. Farkhor Air force base along with Ayni Air force base in Tajakistan is operated by IAF along with Tajakistan Air force

6. Sri Lanka freeing considerable amount of Indian fisherman after speaking with the PM directly, it has happened more than once already. Also conspiracy theories by Rajapaksha, former President claiming India was responsible for his election loss.

7. Recently and in the past India has had good enough relations with Myanmar to ask them to fight militants in their territory. Currently we even have the right to cross over to Myanmar and take them down

8. Bangladesh: Visit the Bangladesh section for all kinds of conspiracy theories, the new bangla govt. has been for some reason extremely friendly towards India..

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## cirr

Mr.Nair said:


> Buddy because of UN perm security council member, russia is not under economic sanction and china is not crying for US involvement in SCS !



Crying？

Yes，we have made 6 islands out of nowhere。That sure is worth a few ounces of cryings for whom you know。

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## Immanuel

It's ok, is shitty place to be anyways, India will do whatever it damn pleases, being part of the UNSC only impairs that freedom.

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## Providence

Mr.Nair said:


> Powerful industry & recent R&D then Japan and Gemany will be the likely candidate than some of the members.The P5 is an outdated one with old world war legacy !



Majority decisions doesn't mean it's correct. Just like in courts. UNSC is a pseudo-exec cum judiciary. That's where buck stops !

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> They didn't, agreed.
> But the equity of the position in the table has grown over the years because of UN's track record howsoever bad it may be. There's no parallel to it.
> I will give you a common analogy. A venture starts with it's share price equal to junk. Over the years because it managed to survive, it grew considerably. Obviously the share price would be premium after 50+ years into operations



UN has failed completely in its job of maintaining peace, especially when the member countries themselves are responsible for starting numerous wars... The Veto system is rather stupid and a rather convenient loophole...

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## Mr.Nair

cirr said:


> Crying？
> 
> Yes，we have made 6 islands out of nowhere。That sure is worth a few ounces of cryings for whom you know。



If you are not crying why can't show your military muscle and warning shots, who is stopping you !

Instead of telling go back go back .....

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## badguy2000

Mr.Nair said:


> Powerful industry & recent R&D then Japan and Gemany will be the likely candidate than some of the members.The P5 is an outdated one with old world war legacy !


1.Japan had once the chance during 1990s,when CHina was not so powerful and Japan had by far might economy.
But now, Japan has no chance,simplly because CHina is against it and CHina has more powerful industry now.

2. Japan and German are weak militarily and can not turn their industry might into military might.

3. EU has two vetos now, it is not reasonable to give another veto to EU. So, German has little chance.


4. a better reform plan of UNSC is to decrease P5 to P4,that is USA, China ,EU and Russia,instead of increaseing vetos.
such a P4 can reflect the new power balance in the world and increase the efficency of UN.
Of course ,it will be vetoed by France and UK....
Thus such a plan is not feasible.



Star Wars said:


> UN has failed completely in its job of maintaining peace, especially when the member countries themselves are responsible for starting numerous wars... The Veto system is rather stupid and a rather convenient loophole...



UN was set up not for maintaining peace,but as a police tools of P5.
P5 are satisfied with it, so it does its job well.

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## Providence

Star Wars said:


> 1. India supported Vietnam's independence from France, opposed American involvement in the Vietnam War, and supported unification of Vietnam. During the Vietnam War, India supported the North, albeit not by conducting military hostilities against the South. This can be contrasted with the policies of the US, who strongly supported the South and engaged in military conflict with the North, albeit without issuing an official declaration of war.
> 
> So? everyone chose sides. Did india's decision had any bearing on the outcome ?
> 
> 2.1971 war Liberation of Bangladesh
> 
> After that several decades of lull.
> 
> 3. LTTE, Not the best example, but there you go... and it happened. LTTE was also destroyed using help from India
> 
> LTTE was killed because they bit back india.
> 
> 4. India's economic presence and goodwill in Afghanistan has grown considerably ever since 9/11
> 
> So did for lots of other countries. And afganisthan's goodwill cannot solve their core issue. militancy or truce.
> 
> 5. Farkhor Air force base along with Ayni Air force base in Tajakistan is operated by IAF along with Tajakistan Air force
> 
> Alongwith russian air-force
> 
> 6. Sri Lanka freeing considerable amount of Indian fisherman after speaking with the PM directly, it has happened more than once already. Also conspiracy theories by Rajapaksha, former President claiming India was responsible for his election loss.
> 
> Okay. A recent phenomena. Need to be sustained.
> 
> 
> 7. Recently and in the past India has had good enough relations with Myanmar to ask them to fight militants in their territory. Currently we even have the right to cross over to Myanmar and take them down
> 
> Okay. Let's see if this policy can be implemented on the other side.
> 
> 8. Bangladesh: Visit the Bangladesh section for all kinds of conspiracy theories, the new bangla govt. has been for some reason extremely friendly towards India..
> 
> Cool. Again a recent development. But hardly adds to any consistent track record.


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## Rajaraja Chola

India do not need permanent seat. I had already emphasized in earlier threads. *Cos in forums we have votes, we "waste" them. We remain neutral or abstain from most of the issues. *
Unless India take a major shift in foreign policy, I do not support permanent membership to India. *Giving a vote to India, is a vote of waste , right now. *
And another thing, if India gets veto, we need to take sides. We wont be able to "please all" or non aligned as we are now.

We should wait for another 15-20 years, make our country a economic powerhouse.

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## Armstrong

Providence said:


> Like on what ? Give specifics



Where is my spot on the UNSC ?

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## Providence

Armstrong said:


> Where is my spot on the UNSC ?



You are invited to my home. We will make southern style bar-b-que 



Star Wars said:


> UN has failed completely in its job of maintaining peace, especially when the member countries themselves are responsible for starting numerous wars... The Veto system is rather stupid and a rather convenient loophole...



UNSC failed. So let's just give India a place in it ? Am i the only one missing a lack of argument here ?

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mr.Nair said:


> If you are not crying why can't show your military muscle and warning shots, who is stopping you !



Well we are building the islands and no one is stopping us? 

There were no islands there... Now there are. 

What you are thinking of, is India being unable to stop all those "Chinese incursions", instead breaking their own bunkers and stopping troop patrols to their own territory. 

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India



> *NEW DELHI: Apart from dismantling a SET of strategically-located bunkers at Chumar as part of an arrangement to end the standoff at Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, the Indian troops seem to have suspended patrols to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Chumar, at least for now. Senior officials briefed by personnel on the ground said the Army has discontinued the round-the clock patrolling it was undertaking in the area for the last few months.*

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## Armstrong

Providence said:


> You are invited to my home. We will make southern style bar-b-que



Thats a deal !  

Can we use @Star Wars as target practice though ?  

I've always wanted to know what it feels like to go Wild Wild West on an Indian !

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## Speeder 2

Mr.Nair said:


> Powerful industry & recent R&D then Japan and Gemany will be the likely candidate than some of the members.The P5 is an outdated one with old world war legacy !



it's a combination of industries, R&D & patents, military power, and geopolitical influences on a global scale arising prior to, since, and beyond WW2.

anyway, one of the minimum requirements of entry application forms is in-door plumbing, which stomps India's supa pawa dream, like forever

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## Shotgunner51

badguy2000 said:


> 1.USA doesn't allow CHina to have more votes of IMF and World bank, China just set up AIIB and Silk Road FUND to marginalize WB and IMF.
> And now, WB/IMF are more eager to give CHinese more Vetos than China itself ,Otherwise, bouth would be replaced by AIIB/Silk Road FUnd sooner or later and got diabled like "the league of Nation".
> 
> 2.if India were able to set up a Parallel or alternative of UN ,just as CHina does with WB/IMF, India would be offered a Veto of UN .
> 
> Thus, India had better spend its energy and money on developing its economy, instead of wasting money/time appealing Veto of UN now before its might deseves a veto.




The attitude towards Bretton Woods order (or in fact anything like that) is pragmatic, take it or leave it, let's not waste time dragging on for no expected results. Just go ahead and do what needs to be done.

If you cannot beat them, then join them, same in the other way round.

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## Providence

Armstrong said:


> Thats a deal !
> 
> Can we use @Star Wars as target practice though ?
> 
> *I've always wanted to know what it feels like to go Wild Wild West on an Indian !*



On the contrary, this forum has mellowed me down. I swiftly bring down a fail logic in the argument though.

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## Chinese-Dragon

The UNSC was made to stop another "World War".

Not to stop regular wars and insurgencies, but to stop another "World War".

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> After that several decades of lull.



It worked none the less..



Providence said:


> LTTE was killed because they bit back india.



Yes, and we killed them along with Sri Lankan army, either way we had a bearing on the outcome



Providence said:


> So did for lots of other countries. And afganisthan's goodwill cannot solve their core issue. militancy or truce.



So why are these "*lots of other countries*" not liked as much by afghans ? NOt to mention the creeping the cultural influence...



Providence said:


> Alongwith russian air-force



So what ? fact is that they agreed....



Providence said:


> Okay. A recent phenomena. Need to be sustained.



finally....'



Providence said:


> Okay. Let's see if this policy can be implemented on the other side.



Don't need to implement it, Pakistan army is fighting the problem themselves thanks to the decades of incompetence..



Providence said:


> Cool. Again a recent development. But hardly adds to any consistent track record.



Its consistent enough, we aren't the worlds police enforcing our will on smaller nations. Regional influence is extended through co-operation and mutual understanding which is beneficial to both parties...







Again..BBIN, and SAARC in the coming years will be extremely beneficial for our neighbors...

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## Mr.Nair

badguy2000 said:


> 1.Japan had once the chance during 1990s,when CHina was not so powerful and Japan had by far might economy.
> But now, Japan has no chance,simplly because CHina is against it and CHina has more powerful industry now.
> 
> 2. Japan and German are weak militarily and can not turn their industry might into military might.
> 
> 3. EU has two vetos now, it is not reasonable to give another veto to EU. So, German has little chance.
> 
> 
> 4. a better reform plan of UNSC is to decrease P5 to P4,that is USA, China ,EU and Russia,instead of increaseing vetos.
> such a P4 can reflect the new power balance in the world and increase the efficency of UN.
> Of course ,it will be vetoed by France and UK....
> Thus such a plan is not feasible.
> 
> 
> 
> UN was set up not for maintaining peace,but as a police tools of P5.
> P5 are satisfied with it, so it does its job well.



For high-tech industries japan still the leader..When china becomes part of P5, they are not a major economy,military or industrial might, other than part of those countries to win world war.Reality is that no P5 wants their power to get diluted and they make all kinds of excuses to justify their self interest.After cold war, UN becomes more irrelevant.

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## VelocuR

Only option for India is to start World War 3 or some wars with US, Russia and China

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## Star Wars

Providence said:


> UNSC failed. So let's just give India a place in it ? Am i the only one missing a lack of argument here ?



Did you not read that i was not interested in India joining UN from the very beginning

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## Echo_419

TaiShang said:


> *US backs China & Russia, blow to Indian UNSC dream*
> 
> Aug 11, 2015, TOI
> 
> NEW DELHI: India's official dream of getting a permanent seat in the UN Security Council was dealt a decisive blow with the US teaming up with China and Russia to oppose negotiations for changes in the body.
> 
> After a long and laborious process of discussions, countries have finally come out with a framework text which could be the basis of negotiations to reform the Security Council — not only to admit more countries as permanent members, but also to make its working more transparent. The text was the result of inter-governmental negotiations (IGN) and was introduced in the UN General Assembly by its president Sam Kutesa on August 1.
> 
> The text, which may continue to be debated, however, has a short effective life after three biggies —US, China and Russia — came out against it, making any negotiations little more than an academic exercise.
> 
> The US stand was a blow largely because its has been what New Delhi believed the most recent and important voice supporting India's permanent UNSC membership. In a letter, the US said, "The IGN is the most appropriate forum for these discussions. It is critical that any reform proposal enjoy broad consensus among member states." Sources said it's just diplomatese for pushing the can down the road.
> 
> Indian officials say the IGN was really not going anywhere, but it has become the flavour of the season with all the nay-sayers like US, Russia and China. Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".
> 
> While India will not stake its partnership with the US on its non-support, it does make things awkward. PM Narendra Modi has recently written a long letter to all 193-member countries of the UN pushing India's case in the UNSC. Indian diplomats believe text-based negotiations are its best chance to get into the UNSC.
> 
> Russia, India's oldest supporter for the UNSC seat, also supported the inter-governmental negotiations, rejecting the text-based one. "The intergovernmental negotiations on the UN Security Council reform should proceed in a calm, transparent and inclusive atmosphere free from artificial deadlines. If a consensus on this issue is not possible to achieve, then in any case it will be politically necessary to secure the support by the overwhelming majority of the member-states — a substantially greater number than the legally required two thirds of votes at the General Assembly," it said. That, say diplomats, will be almost impossible to achieve.
> 
> China has remained a steadfast opponent to the process of UNSC reform, and has been the unofficial sponsor of the 13-nation group UfC. So China's opposition to the negotiations is not a surprise. Beijing has used its considerable clout in Africa, Asia and Latin America to build opinion against the text process.
> 
> In its response, Beijing said it would refuse to "populate" the document. Outlining its position, China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.
> 
> The five clusters of key issues concerning Security Council reform are interrelated, and should not be addressed in isolation of each other. It is imperative to stick to the approach of a package solution." Indicating that it might be difficult to ever get China's support, it put out what appears to be an impossible position — "No solution on which member-states are seriously divided or approach that may cause division among member-states will have China's support."



We will take pur own time


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## Echo_419

Star Wars said:


> Regional influence in South Asia , Leading BBIN , BRICS member ,Second most influential member in the AIIB. Has goodwill and Influence in Afghanistan and Iran..



The SC will grow irrelevant if it decides to keep powers like Japan & India out of it

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## unbiasedopinion

Untill India has some major advantages on the military front, with leap bound progress in self grown technology, UNSC is a distant dream. 

Why would existing P5 dilute their power? What benefit will they have? All these talks about democracy, human rights etc are just farce and does not hold any value in the power games. 
NAM was the right choice and India should try to re-energise it.

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## Mr.Nair

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The UNSC was made to stop another "World War".
> 
> Not to stop regular wars and insurgencies, but to stop another "World War".



It is not mainly because of UNSC to stop world war, but because all major power's are nuclear armed and that stop's world war.

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## Indus Pakistan

Providence said:


> Like on what ? Give specifics



Provides counterweight to President Ghani's Afghanistan to Pakistan. Has significant influence on *Maldives* and* Bhutan*. What else you want?

Oh it has 1,280 million people and about to overtake China.

_Ps. It's influence on Iran is nothing. Iran being Iran would never do anything unless it wants to. As regards trade the Chinese carry far more leverage with Iran then India._

OEC: Iran (IRN) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners

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## Star Wars

Armstrong said:


> Thats a deal !
> Can we use @Star Wars as target practice though ?
> I've always wanted to know what it feels like to go Wild Wild West on an Indian !



And i thought you were a friend

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## Speeder 2

look at the similar threads below on the page, China has been supporting India's UNSC ambition since 2008

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## Mr.Nair

badguy2000 said:


> 1.Japan had once the chance during 1990s,when CHina was not so powerful and Japan had by far might economy.
> But now, Japan has no chance,simplly because CHina is against it and CHina has more powerful industry now.
> 
> 2. Japan and German are weak militarily and can not turn their industry might into military might.
> 
> 3. EU has two vetos now, it is not reasonable to give another veto to EU. So, German has little chance.
> 
> 
> 4. a better reform plan of UNSC is to decrease P5 to P4,that is USA, China ,EU and Russia,instead of increaseing vetos.
> such a P4 can reflect the new power balance in the world and increase the efficency of UN.
> Of course ,it will be vetoed by France and UK....
> Thus such a plan is not feasible.
> 
> 
> 
> UN was set up not for maintaining peace,but as a police tools of P5.
> P5 are satisfied with it, so it does its job well.



That police tool does not suits the events, as russia still facing sanctions outside UN and US trying to scuttle china's progress and demonstrating its military might on china's backyard.


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## Indus Pakistan

Providence said:


> Like on what ? Give specifics



Specifics? Okay here I go. Each Indian gave off C02 emission of nearly 1.7 tons. Thus 1.270 billion times 1.7 tons =* 2,159,000,000 tons* of emission.

That is lot of* hot gas* coming out of Indians. Surely that deserves UNSC seat?

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## Srinivas

_* A country like India deserves UNSC permanent seat and is in no need of recommendations or favors to get its deserved place.*_

*IGN do not mean any single power can stop India's entry into UNSC.* *This world has many countries and it is upto them to decide.*

* There is absolutely no need of UNSC expansion with out veto power, Countries in UNSC are acting like fascist powers. UNSC will loose its significance if it runs like Aristocracy.*





TaiShang said:


> *US backs China & Russia, blow to Indian UNSC dream*
> 
> Aug 11, 2015, TOI
> 
> NEW DELHI: India's official dream of getting a permanent seat in the UN Security Council was dealt a decisive blow with the US teaming up with China and Russia to oppose negotiations for changes in the body.
> 
> After a long and laborious process of discussions, countries have finally come out with a framework text which could be the basis of negotiations to reform the Security Council — not only to admit more countries as permanent members, but also to make its working more transparent. The text was the result of inter-governmental negotiations (IGN) and was introduced in the UN General Assembly by its president Sam Kutesa on August 1.
> 
> The text, which may continue to be debated, however, has a short effective life after three biggies —US, China and Russia — came out against it, making any negotiations little more than an academic exercise.
> 
> The US stand was a blow largely because its has been what New Delhi believed the most recent and important voice supporting India's permanent UNSC membership. In a letter, the US said, "The IGN is the most appropriate forum for these discussions. It is critical that any reform proposal enjoy broad consensus among member states." Sources said it's just diplomatese for pushing the can down the road.
> 
> Indian officials say the IGN was really not going anywhere, but it has become the flavour of the season with all the nay-sayers like US, Russia and China. Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".
> 
> While India will not stake its partnership with the US on its non-support, it does make things awkward. PM Narendra Modi has recently written a long letter to all 193-member countries of the UN pushing India's case in the UNSC. Indian diplomats believe text-based negotiations are its best chance to get into the UNSC.
> 
> Russia, India's oldest supporter for the UNSC seat, also supported the inter-governmental negotiations, rejecting the text-based one. "The intergovernmental negotiations on the UN Security Council reform should proceed in a calm, transparent and inclusive atmosphere free from artificial deadlines. If a consensus on this issue is not possible to achieve, then in any case it will be politically necessary to secure the support by the overwhelming majority of the member-states — a substantially greater number than the legally required two thirds of votes at the General Assembly," it said. That, say diplomats, will be almost impossible to achieve.
> 
> China has remained a steadfast opponent to the process of UNSC reform, and has been the unofficial sponsor of the 13-nation group UfC. So China's opposition to the negotiations is not a surprise. Beijing has used its considerable clout in Africa, Asia and Latin America to build opinion against the text process.
> 
> In its response, Beijing said it would refuse to "populate" the document. Outlining its position, China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.
> 
> The five clusters of key issues concerning Security Council reform are interrelated, and should not be addressed in isolation of each other. It is imperative to stick to the approach of a package solution." Indicating that it might be difficult to ever get China's support, it put out what appears to be an impossible position — "No solution on which member-states are seriously divided or approach that may cause division among member-states will have China's support."

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## TaiShang

TaiShang said:


> China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.



As long as one of the members disagrees, any enlargement effort is destined to fail.

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## VelocuR

Srinivas said:


> _* India deserves UNSC permanent seat and so it will get it in an appropriate way.
> A country like India is a do not need recommendations or favors to get its deserved place.*_
> 
> *IGN do not mean any single power can stop India's entry into UNSC.* *This world has many countries and it is upto them decide.*



It look like you have some comprehension issues, please read again. Why Modi ji wrote long letters of 193 pages to all countries???

*US backs China & Russia, blow to Indian UNSC dream*

Aug 11, 2015, TOI

NEW DELHI: India's official dream of getting a permanent seat in the UN Security Council was dealt a decisive blow with the US teaming up with China and Russia to oppose negotiations for changes in the body. 

After a long and laborious process of discussions, countries have finally come out with a framework text which could be the basis of negotiations to reform the Security Council — not only to admit more countries as permanent members, but also to make its working more transparent. The text was the result of inter-governmental negotiations (IGN) and was introduced in the UN General Assembly by its president Sam Kutesa on August 1. 

The text, which may continue to be debated, however, has a short effective life after three biggies —US, China and Russia — came out against it, making any negotiations little more than an academic exercise. 

The US stand was a blow largely because its has been what *New Delhi believed the most recent and important voice supporting India's permanent UNSC membership.* In a letter, the US said, "The IGN is the most appropriate forum for these discussions. It is critical that any reform proposal enjoy broad consensus among member states." Sources said it's just diplomatese for pushing the can down the road. 

Indian officials say the IGN was really not going anywhere, but it has become the flavour of the season with all the nay-sayers like US, Russia and China. Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto". 

While India will not stake its partnership with the US on its non-support, it does make things awkward. *PM Narendra Modi has recently written a long letter to all 193-member countries of the UN pushing India's case in the UNSC. Indian diplomats believe text-based negotiations are its best chance to get into the UNSC. *

Russia, India's oldest supporter for the UNSC seat, also supported the inter-governmental negotiations, rejecting the text-based one. "The intergovernmental negotiations on the UN Security Council reform should proceed in a calm, transparent and inclusive atmosphere free from artificial deadlines. If a consensus on this issue is not possible to achieve, then in any case it will be politically necessary to secure the support by the overwhelming majority of the member-states — a substantially greater number than the legally required two thirds of votes at the General Assembly," it said. That, say diplomats, will be almost impossible to achieve. 

China has remained a steadfast opponent to the process of UNSC reform, and has been the unofficial sponsor of the 13-nation group UfC. So China's opposition to the negotiations is not a surprise. Beijing has used its considerable clout in Africa, Asia and Latin America to build opinion against the text process. 

In its response, Beijing said it would refuse to "populate" the document. Outlining its position, China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.

The five clusters of key issues concerning Security Council reform are interrelated, and should not be addressed in isolation of each other. It is imperative to stick to the approach of a package solution." Indicating that it might be difficult to ever get China's support, it put out what appears to be an impossible position — "No solution on which member-states are seriously divided or approach that may cause division among member-states will have China's support."

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## Indus Pakistan

VelocuR said:


> India will win whole wars against big countries soon? gonna ride to Mars again under US supervisor?



It is called living on "*paste tense*" like this move "Back to the Future" but your from the past living in the future.

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## Srinivas

You have no idea how these things work !





VelocuR said:


> It look like you have some comprehension issues, please read again. Why Modi ji wrote long letters of 193 pages to all countries???
> 
> *US backs China & Russia, blow to Indian UNSC dream*
> 
> Aug 11, 2015, TOI
> 
> NEW DELHI: India's official dream of getting a permanent seat in the UN Security Council was dealt a decisive blow with the US teaming up with China and Russia to oppose negotiations for changes in the body.
> 
> After a long and laborious process of discussions, countries have finally come out with a framework text which could be the basis of negotiations to reform the Security Council — not only to admit more countries as permanent members, but also to make its working more transparent. The text was the result of inter-governmental negotiations (IGN) and was introduced in the UN General Assembly by its president Sam Kutesa on August 1.
> 
> The text, which may continue to be debated, however, has a short effective life after three biggies —US, China and Russia — came out against it, making any negotiations little more than an academic exercise.
> 
> The US stand was a blow largely because its has been what *New Delhi believed the most recent and important voice supporting India's permanent UNSC membership.* In a letter, the US said, "The IGN is the most appropriate forum for these discussions. It is critical that any reform proposal enjoy broad consensus among member states." Sources said it's just diplomatese for pushing the can down the road.
> 
> Indian officials say the IGN was really not going anywhere, but it has become the flavour of the season with all the nay-sayers like US, Russia and China. Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".
> 
> While India will not stake its partnership with the US on its non-support, it does make things awkward. *PM Narendra Modi has recently written a long letter to all 193-member countries of the UN pushing India's case in the UNSC. Indian diplomats believe text-based negotiations are its best chance to get into the UNSC. *
> 
> Russia, India's oldest supporter for the UNSC seat, also supported the inter-governmental negotiations, rejecting the text-based one. "The intergovernmental negotiations on the UN Security Council reform should proceed in a calm, transparent and inclusive atmosphere free from artificial deadlines. If a consensus on this issue is not possible to achieve, then in any case it will be politically necessary to secure the support by the overwhelming majority of the member-states — a substantially greater number than the legally required two thirds of votes at the General Assembly," it said. That, say diplomats, will be almost impossible to achieve.
> 
> China has remained a steadfast opponent to the process of UNSC reform, and has been the unofficial sponsor of the 13-nation group UfC. So China's opposition to the negotiations is not a surprise. Beijing has used its considerable clout in Africa, Asia and Latin America to build opinion against the text process.
> 
> In its response, Beijing said it would refuse to "populate" the document. Outlining its position, China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.
> 
> The five clusters of key issues concerning Security Council reform are interrelated, and should not be addressed in isolation of each other. It is imperative to stick to the approach of a package solution." Indicating that it might be difficult to ever get China's support, it put out what appears to be an impossible position — "No solution on which member-states are seriously divided or approach that may cause division among member-states will have China's support."


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## GURU DUTT

opruh said:


> Poor India, if the master US says no, then it's a no.


whose nations ex president and field marshal wrote a book called "friends not masters" for USA 

which nation gave its peshawar air base to CIA to snoop on USSR in 1950s  

which nation faught against USSR for USA in 1980's 

which nation even after so much harm caused deu to USA's WOT still fights for USA and gives them there bases and terriotories as a passage to afghanistan in exchange of war remmitence and CSF  

ever wonderred which nation was imposed with shamefull US acts like "kerry lugar bill"

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## VelocuR

Srinivas said:


> You have no idea how these things work !



Oh really, what is it? Tell us more.


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## Mr.Nair

opruh said:


> Poor India, if the master US says no, then it's a no.



US taunt in your backyard, why are you still trading with them ! what, are u a slave of US or you look self interest first?

We trade with Iran even under US sanction,US regret over incident of one of our diplomat ill treatment,India still deal with Russian military hardware and power plant projects .India does not support sanctions against Russia.Too much master buddy.

You can sell your bullsh**t to some where else !

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## Speeder 2

I'd love to the Chinese reactions in Chinese-language forum threads on this... must be hilarious. Anyone got a link?

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## Huan

Providence said:


> Lots of foreign policy activism or lack thereof in case of India is driven by domestic sensitivities. With such a situation, India cannot be allowed to be a part of UNSC. Plain and simple.
> 
> On that table for big boys, we take decisions based on collective agreements and with a principle of give and take irrespective of how much fierce differences we have outside the table. India (when it talks about a diligent track record also brings with it a track record of dilly dallying indecisive behaviour ). Once again I must stress, UNSC cannot be a hostage to domestic turmoil in some place.
> 
> Also, India playing neutral most of the time hardly brings any marginal benefit in the working of UNSC.
> 
> We might reconsider after maybe 15 years.


It is like applying to be a part of a tight-knit elite group I suppose. Hard to get in.

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## mike2000 is back

badguy2000 said:


> well, guys ,pls remember:
> 
> 
> 1.it is because UNSC has P5 as its big daddies that UNSC is something important.
> 
> it is not because P5 has the veto of UNSC that P5 are somebody mighty
> it is always because of their powerful industry/decent R&D ,instead of "Veto" ,that P5 are mighty
> 
> 
> 2. UNSC is just a tool of P5 keeping their political previldges.
> 
> if UNSC doesn't not obey P5 or are not useful any more , P5 would just set up another alternatives tool and abadon UNSC as used toiliet tissues..
> 
> In fact, they did so with "the league of Nation" last time.



It has much less to do with R&D or industry/infustrialization etc if it did then germany and Japan will be part of P5 OBVIOUSLY. China also didnt have a large industry(it was an agrarian society when the UNSC was formed) or R&D.

The UNSC simply came about after the second world war. The large major INDEPENDENT countries/powers who fought and emerged victorious automatically got access to the P5. OUT of these five just three actually got to write the rules of the post war world order, i.e U.K U.S,and U.S.S.R. These three powers were all industrial giants and world powers with interests and influence spanning the entire globe(Germany and Japan as well,but they lost the war), and Most of all THEY WERE THE VICTORS OF THE WAR. So winner take it all applied in this case and they wrote the rules which the world followed.
The other two powers i.e China and France got included in P5 as they were pary of the major independent countries who also took part in the war. but werent major stakeholders in the post war high tables/rule writers for different reasons. 

For France even though it was an advanced european industrial world power with colonies and influence spanning from africa to indo china, it lost surprisingly fast to Germany and was occupied and ruled by the Nazis and its government had to cooperate with the nazis which greatly reduced its own influence/image. 
CHINA on the other hand was an impoverished country/power with a little to no industry and made of warlords who ruled over their own territory, though it had a central governement. The governemnt KMT was also facing a rebelion by communist CCP supported by U.S.S.R and thus couldnt use all its resources to fully focus on the fight against JAPAN as it was fighting a civil war with communist rebels at the same time. So China after WWII still had to continue its civil war, which greatly affected the country from making full use if being a victor in the great war as the KMT was busy fighting the empowered CCP , so had little focus on negotiating/being at the high tables of writing the post world war rules. Had there been no civil war , then China would have got far more atter the war than it did e.g senkakus, taiwan, SCS ,maybe even mongolia etc.

So UNSC permanent seat was just as a result of the victors of the war. They were all INDEPENDENT powers at the time, though the power/industrial might/influence level varied.

In short there wont obviously be any change whatsoever in the P5+1 arrangement.

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## Hypersonicmissiles

Problem with India is that they actually believe the US is their ally and will do everything for them. 

The reality is the US is a ruthless power that will do everything to prevent a rival power from challenging it. Russia and China are problematic enough, the last thing the US wants is India given the power to counter American actions. 

India will never get UNSC veto power. America, Russia and China will make sure of it. Of course in public they will support India but when its decision time, they will back off from promises.

India isn't taken seriously on the world stage as they don't have an independent foreign policy.

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## SrNair

TaiShang said:


> *US backs China & Russia, blow to Indian UNSC dream*
> 
> Aug 11, 2015, TOI
> 
> NEW DELHI: India's official dream of getting a permanent seat in the UN Security Council was dealt a decisive blow with the US teaming up with China and Russia to oppose negotiations for changes in the body.
> 
> After a long and laborious process of discussions, countries have finally come out with a framework text which could be the basis of negotiations to reform the Security Council — not only to admit more countries as permanent members, but also to make its working more transparent. The text was the result of inter-governmental negotiations (IGN) and was introduced in the UN General Assembly by its president Sam Kutesa on August 1.
> 
> The text, which may continue to be debated, however, has a short effective life after three biggies —US, China and Russia — came out against it, making any negotiations little more than an academic exercise.
> 
> The US stand was a blow largely because its has been what New Delhi believed the most recent and important voice supporting India's permanent UNSC membership. In a letter, the US said, "The IGN is the most appropriate forum for these discussions. It is critical that any reform proposal enjoy broad consensus among member states." Sources said it's just diplomatese for pushing the can down the road.
> 
> Indian officials say the IGN was really not going anywhere, but it has become the flavour of the season with all the nay-sayers like US, Russia and China. Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".
> 
> While India will not stake its partnership with the US on its non-support, it does make things awkward. PM Narendra Modi has recently written a long letter to all 193-member countries of the UN pushing India's case in the UNSC. Indian diplomats believe text-based negotiations are its best chance to get into the UNSC.
> 
> Russia, India's oldest supporter for the UNSC seat, also supported the inter-governmental negotiations, rejecting the text-based one. "The intergovernmental negotiations on the UN Security Council reform should proceed in a calm, transparent and inclusive atmosphere free from artificial deadlines. If a consensus on this issue is not possible to achieve, then in any case it will be politically necessary to secure the support by the overwhelming majority of the member-states — a substantially greater number than the legally required two thirds of votes at the General Assembly," it said. That, say diplomats, will be almost impossible to achieve.
> 
> China has remained a steadfast opponent to the process of UNSC reform, and has been the unofficial sponsor of the 13-nation group UfC. So China's opposition to the negotiations is not a surprise. Beijing has used its considerable clout in Africa, Asia and Latin America to build opinion against the text process.
> 
> In its response, Beijing said it would refuse to "populate" the document. Outlining its position, China said, "Member-states are still seriously divided on the Security Council reform. No general agreement has been reached on any solution so far. Member-states still need to engage in patient consultations to find a solution that accommodates each other's interests and concerns. Any solution or reform model should enjoy general agreement among member-states.
> 
> The five clusters of key issues concerning Security Council reform are interrelated, and should not be addressed in isolation of each other. It is imperative to stick to the approach of a package solution." Indicating that it might be difficult to ever get China's support, it put out what appears to be an impossible position — "No solution on which member-states are seriously divided or approach that may cause division among member-states will have China's support."




We are not going anywhere .
They can resist for around 2 decades ,maximum.
We should check their response of these guys when we pass 5 trillion$ mark.
Manufacturing and own defence is already in full throttle .We dont have to waste money for these Seat .Just concentrate on our economy ,technology and military.That is all we need.

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## Guynextdoor2

Chinese-Dragon said:


> And I constantly hear from Indian members that we just have to "wait and see", and that India will join the P5 in a few years time.
> 
> I would tag them, but I don't remember their names. No need either, all the old threads regarding UNSC reform are preserved on this site.
> 
> The basic underlying fact is that the P5 members are not going to dilute their own veto power. It makes no sense at all.



This is a 30 year project, not a 5 year project



SrNair said:


> We are not going anywhere .
> They can resist for around 2 decades ,maximum.
> We should check their response of these guys when we pass 5 trillion$ mark.
> Manufacturing and own defence is already in full throttle .We dont have to waste money for these Seat .Just concentrate on our economy ,technology and military.That is all we need.



I think the decisive factor is going to be UK, their decline is so dramatic that they'll e a chicken-shit power in 15 years. Imagine if Norway/ Sri Lanka was a P5 member, it would be just lame.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

badguy2000 said:


> "democratic UNSC" is not UN,but G7.
> 
> it has existed for decades......
> 
> if so, India has not been offter a seat of G7,purely because India's backward economy does not deserve it.


What was China's economy status when China got permanent seat in UNSC??


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## Place Of Space

When the Indian time and time again justify for Japanese crime during WWII, I almost realize India has little chance.
Firstly you need to know how the UN come out, how the UNSC established. The UN establishment was based on WWII victory over Axis. The world changes, but the origin can't be changed, at least for a long period, the present world rules won't change.

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## Guynextdoor2

Place Of Space said:


> When the Indian time and time again justify for Japanese crime during WWII, I almost realize India has little chance.
> Firstly you need to know how the UN come out, how the UNSC established. The UN establishment was based on WWII victory over Axis. The world changes, but the origin can't be changed, at least for a long period, the present world rules won't change.



No Indian has justified Japanese War Crimes. That is a blatant lie.

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## dy1022

Guynextdoor2 said:


> This is a 30 year project, not a 5 year project
> 
> 
> 
> I think the decisive factor is going to be UK, their decline is so dramatic that they'll e a chicken-shit power in 15 years. Imagine if Norway/ Sri Lanka was a P5 member, it would be just lame.








Yes sir, Just look at what's Mike 2000 is back said in here, we'll know one day ,There will be no Uk but India in the P5 club!


Maybe Mike should eat more Fish and chips for saving Briton where 300 days out of 365 are rainning!

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## SrNair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> This is a 30 year project, not a 5 year project
> 
> 
> 
> I think the decisive factor is going to be UK, their decline is so dramatic that they'll e a chicken-shit power in 15 years. Imagine if Norway/ Sri Lanka was a P5 member, it would be just lame.



It is quite amazing to see some members enjoyment in here like end of the world.
Like I said .They will resist now .But how long ? Currently we are already a 2.3 trillion$ economy.
And our new gen politician and bureacrats are good in strategic thinking .
Some experts like this passed same comments when we talks about NSG waiver during 1990s .Now what?

You have a point in there.UK is declining .France and Russia also cant put up a performance like ours at any case.
All I can say is that these morons can resist us for maximum two decades.After that we will play our own assertive role .At that time our domestic politics wont be an issue.

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## Guynextdoor2

SrNair said:


> It is quite amazing to see some members enjoyment in here like end of the world.
> Like I said .They will resist now .But how long ? Currently we are already a 2.3 trillion$ economy.
> And our new gen politician and bureacrats are good in strategic thinking .
> Some experts like this passed same comments when we talks about NSG waiver during 1990s .Now what?
> 
> You have a point in there.UK is declining .France and Russia also cant put up a performance like ours at any case.
> All I can say is that these morons can resist us for maximum two decades.After that we will play our own assertive role .At that time our domestic politics wont be an issue.



And India is like 1/6 th of the world population, without our security paramount, the UNSC will just become a joke organization.



dy1022 said:


> Yes sir, Just look at what's Mike 2000 is back said in here, we'll know one day ,There will be no Uk but India in the P5 club!
> 
> 
> Maybe Mike should eat more Fish and chips for saving Briton where 300 days out of 365 are rainning!


Britai is growing old, in 1947 its colonial empire was still significant. It's showing there is a broad decline across sport, culture and military strength. They're retracting what is the truly logical level for a 60 million people island- like Scandinivan countries- great wealth, great health care, but probably not a big military player. It's inevitable.

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## SrNair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> And India is like 1/6 th of the world population, without our security paramount, the UNSC will just become a joke organization.



UNSC is already a joke .
One of it UK .Our leaders always show a lack of interest in visiting that nation.
Except US and China others cant compete with us in equal terms for long.
And after 1 decade we will have stabilised 1.6 billion population .Virtually ,if India force to take action against any other nation for its own interet ,UNSC will sit in sidewalk for watching.

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## xyxmt

badguy2000 said:


> 1.USA doesn't allow CHina to have more votes of IMF and World bank, China just set up AIIB and Silk Road FUND to marginalize WB and IMF.
> And now, WB/IMF are more eager to give CHinese more Vetos than China itself ,Otherwise, bouth would be replaced by AIIB/Silk Road FUnd sooner or later and got diabled like "the league of Nation".
> 
> 2.if India were able to set up a Parallel or alternative of UN ,just as CHina does with WB/IMF, India would be offered a Veto of UN .
> 
> Thus, India had better spend its energy and money on developing its economy, instead of wasting money/time appealing Veto of UN now before its might deseves a veto.



India and China, what a comparison!


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## Place Of Space

mike2000 is back said:


> It has much less to do with R&D or industry/infustrialization etc if it did then germany and Japan will be part of P5 OBVIOUSLY. China also didnt have a large industry(it was an agrarian society when the UNSC was formed) or R&D.
> 
> The UNSC simply came about after the second world war. The large major INDEPENDENT countries/powers who fought and emerged victorious automatically got access to the P5. OUT of these five just three actually got to write the rules of the post war world order, i.e U.K U.S,and U.S.S.R. These three powers were all industrial giants and world powers with interests and influence spanning the entire globe(Germany and Japan as well,but they lost the war), and Most of all THEY WERE THE VICTORS OF THE WAR. So winner take it all applied in this case and they wrote the rules which the world followed.
> The other two powers i.e China and France got included in P5 as they were pary of the major independent countries who also took part in the war. but werent major stakeholders in the post war high tables/rule writers for different reasons.
> 
> For France even though it was an advanced european industrial world power with colonies and influence spanning from africa to indo china, it lost surprisingly fast to Germany and was occupied and ruled by the Nazis and its government had to cooperate with the nazis which greatly reduced its own influence/image.
> CHINA on the other hand was an impoverished country/power with a little to no industry and made of warlords who ruled over their own territory, though it had a central governement. The governemnt KMT was also facing a rebelion by communist CCP supported by U.S.S.R and thus couldnt use all its resources to fully focus on the fight against JAPAN as it was fighting a civil war with communist rebels at the same time. So China after WWII still had to continue its civil war, which greatly affected the country from making full use if being a victor in the great war as the KMT was busy fighting the empowered CCP , so had little focus on negotiating/being at the high tables of writing the post world war rules. Had there been no civil war , then China would have got far more atter the war than it did e.g senkakus, taiwan, SCS ,maybe even mongolia etc.
> 
> So UNSC permanent seat was just as a result of the victors of the war. They were all INDEPENDENT powers at the time, though the power/industrial might/influence level varied.
> 
> In short there wont obviously be any change whatsoever in the P5+1 arrangement.



“Had there been no civil war , then China would have got far more atter the war than it did e.g senkakus, taiwan, SCS ,maybe even mongolia etc.”

Not be childish. Had there been no civil war, the America still could find out a lot of excuses to reap most victorious fruits. Check how Britain, France's sphere disappeared in South, South-East Asia.

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## mike2000 is back

Guynextdoor2 said:


> This is a 30 year project, not a 5 year project
> 
> 
> 
> I think the decisive factor is going to be UK, their decline is so dramatic that they'll e a chicken-shit power in 15 years. Imagine if Norway/ Sri Lanka was a P5 member, it would be just lame.



Keep dreaming. Its not illegal yet.


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## Gibbs

Sigh.. Always knew about, Always said so.. Some Indians here got over excited as usual when ever Americans say something to the Indian media just to pacify their ego.. And threw hissy fits when ever some of us tried to talk sense in to it and tried to talk them in to reality.. Oh well.. 



The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Only democratic country should be part of UNSC. India is not in hurry to get permanent seat in SC. India is maintaining peace in the region and in the world without getting any seat. It is time to improve our economy , right now India don't want to interfere in other countries affairs. So no need such power.



Well thats not exactly what your government thinks.. They're basically begging to be included in appealing in every global fora possible.. Humiliating

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## Chinese-Dragon

Gibbs said:


> Sigh.. Always knew about, Always said so.. Some Indians here got over excited as usual when ever Americans say something to the Indian media just to pacify their ego.. And threw hissy fits when ever some of us tried to talk sense in to it and tried to talk them in to reality.. Oh well..
> 
> 
> 
> Well thats not exactly what your government thinks.. They're basically begging to be included in appealing in every global fora possible.. Humiliating



Check the "similar threads" section at the bottom of the thread, they've been saying that "China supports India for a permanent seat" since 2008, lol!

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## SrNair

Gibbs said:


> Sigh.. Always knew about, Always said so.. Some Indians here got over excited as usual when ever Americans say something to the Indian media just to pacify their ego.. And threw hissy fits when ever some of us tried to talk sense in to it and tried to talk them in to reality.. Oh well..
> 
> 
> 
> Well thats not exactly what your government thinks.. They're basically begging to be included in appealing in every global fora possible.. Humiliating



We are not going anywhere .
They can resist for around 2 decades ,maximum.
We should check their response of these guys when we pass 5 trillion$ mark.
Manufacturing and own defence is already in full throttle .We dont have to waste money for these Seat .Just concentrate on our economy ,technology and military.That is all we need.

You can 'sigh' for now.
But we will continue our effort .'Wait and See'.


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## mike2000 is back

Place Of Space said:


> “Had there been no civil war , then China would have got far more atter the war than it did e.g senkakus, taiwan, SCS ,maybe even mongolia etc.”
> 
> Not be childish. Had there been no civil war, the America still could find out a lot of excuses to reap most victorious fruits. Check how Britain, France's sphere disappeared in South, South-East Asia.



Lool The two are completely different things/scenarios. The U.S was fighting for its own independence and ability to decide its own fate and be a power in its own right, not merely an extension of our empire/territory, and there was not much at stake as it was not a world war.

China on the other hand had never really been colonised(though it had some of its territory taken away/forcely leased by western powers and Russia), it was almost always independent hence no need to fight a war for independence as it was already independent/self ruled. So you cant compare the two. So yes i stand by my point, China would have fared far more better during WWII agaibst Japan had there been no civil war/rebellions internally prior to japan invading the country, that no secret, just common sense. Do you think the PRC could have even fared so well during the korean war after the civil war ended, if she was still fighting a full scale bloody civil war back home against an embolden rebel group? It wouldnt have even entered the war in that situation(as its focus would have been onndefeating its most dangerous ennemy back home). Its like syrian governemnt deciding to go a foreign expedition in say iraq or fighting israel while fighting rebels in its territory. Little chance of success giving these circumstances.

So yes, things would have been much different in that case, as a united/internally peaceful large country would have much more power/focus on negotiating a better deal for itself(after a bloody world war) than a chaotic civil war weaken country can ever do.

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## Hypersonicmissiles

Guynextdoor2 said:


> And India is like 1/6 th of the world population, without our security paramount, the UNSC will just become a joke organization.
> 
> 
> Britai is growing old, in 1947 its colonial empire was still significant. It's showing there is a broad decline across sport, culture and military strength. They're retracting what is the truly logical level for a 60 million people island- like Scandinivan countries- great wealth, great health care, but probably not a big military player. It's inevitable.



India is not even a proper country. It's questionable whether it will remain a union for the remainder of the century. 

UK is very strong in sports and was 3rd in the Olympics last time. British culture is still influential and the British military-industrial complex is world class.

India is beyond a joke in economics, technology, military, culture, etc.

Britain taught India everything, they gave you a country, they gave you infrastructure, they gave a language so you can communicate between your British-created country.

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## Gibbs

SrNair said:


> We are not going anywhere .
> They can resist for around 2 decades ,maximum.
> We should check their response of these guys when we pass 5 trillion$ mark.
> Manufacturing and own defence is already in full throttle .We dont have to waste money for these Seat .Just concentrate on our economy ,technology and military.That is all we need.
> 
> You can 'sigh' for now.
> But we will continue our effort .'Wait and See'.



Yeah, Yeah mate, recycled rhetoric.. Surprised your usual broken record of "Who are you to question us ?" Wasn't thrown today..

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## Hypersonicmissiles

SrNair said:


> We are not going anywhere .
> They can resist for around 2 decades ,maximum.
> We should check their response of these guys when we pass 5 trillion$ mark.
> Manufacturing and own defence is already in full throttle .We dont have to waste money for these Seat .Just concentrate on our economy ,technology and military.That is all we need.
> 
> You can 'sigh' for now.
> But we will continue our effort .'Wait and See'.



Coulda, woulda, shoulda 

Typical Indian. Never achieved anything but day dreaming about world domination.

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## SrNair

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> Coulda, woulda, shoulda
> 
> Typical Indian. Never achieved anything but day dreaming about world domination.



Never achieved anything???
Really??
We Indians knows our the difference between the condition prevailed in India in 1947 and now this 2015.
Of Course we have problems of poverty .But was also successfull in lifting 300 million in to middle class.
We have satisfaction about that performance.


Gibbs said:


> Yeah, Yeah mate, recycled rhetoric.. Surprised your usual broken record of "Who are you to question us ?" Wasn't thrown today..


So ??
Guys like you repeated same shit like a parrot about NSG waiver during 1990s .But what about now .
Similar thing will also happen in future .We are confident.

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## Place Of Space

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool the two are completely different things/scenarios. The U.S was fighting for its own independence and ability to decide its own fate and be a power in its own right, not merely an extentsion of our empire/territory, and there was not much at stake as it was not a world war.
> China on the other hand had nevrr been colonised(though it had some of its territory taken away/forcely leased by western powers and Russia), it was always independent hence no need to fight a war for independence as itbwas alredy independent/self ruled. So uou cant compare the two. So yes i stand by my point, China would have fared far more better had there been no civil war/rebellions internally prior to japan invading the country, that no secret, just common sense. Do you think the PRC could have even fared so well dring the korean war after the civil war ended, if she was still fighting a full scale bloody civil war back home against an embolden rebel group? It wouldnt have even entered thebwar in that situation. its like syrian governemnt deciding to go a foreign expedition in say iraq or fighting israel while fighting rebels in its territory. Little chance of success giving these circumstances.



You misunderstood my post. There were international laws keeping China's rights on Taiwan, SCS, but no laws indicated China still had rights on Ryukyu, Mongolia. China had already confessed their independence, under the Cairo, Potsdam rules.

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## Guynextdoor2

mike2000 is back said:


> Keep dreaming. Its not illegal yet.



Ok, explain to me then, how is not shutting down say, the Eurofighter program the most rational economic choice for UK?

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## SrNair

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Your state is like smaller than tamil nadu, and you want to give us 'insights'
> 
> 
> 
> I threw it more accurately as...*what makes you think you can question us?*
> 
> 
> 
> 50 cents for you




Dont question him bro.

He is a Glooooobal citizen .Perfect than Kofi Annan

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## Gibbs

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Your state is like smaller than tamil nadu, and you want to give us 'insights'
> 
> 
> 
> I threw it more accurately as...what makes you think you can question us?



Stick to the subject matter.. Your slips show, Insecure much ?

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## Guynextdoor2

Gibbs said:


> Stick to the subject matter.. Your slips show, Insecure much ?


Your president is equal to the influence of an average CM in India, your 'army chief' will be the level of a brigadier. Why do you waste time on things you don't understand.

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## Stealth



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## Gibbs

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Your president is equal to the influence of an average CM in India, your 'army chief' will be the level of a brigadier. Why do you waste time on things you don't understand.



Like how some of you Indians have such a massive inferiority complex, That they have to derail and drag in others things totally irrelevant to the subject ?.. Yeah that is a waste of time

As for anybody to comment of any subject matter relevant to the thread.. Tough shit to you.. This is a Pakistani forum with a global membership.. Better go somewhere else if you cant handle it

I know it's humiliating after begging and pleading to be included in to the big boys club, Just to be rejected like a piece of crap.. But the real world is not Bollywood fantasy.. More you lot realize it better for your sanity.. G'day

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## Guynextdoor2

Gibbs said:


> Like how some of you Indians have such a massive inferiority complex, That they have to derail and drag in others things totally irrelevant to the subject ?.. Yeah that is a waste of time
> 
> As for anybody to comment of any subject matter relevant to the thread.. Tough shit to you.. This is a Pakistani forum with a global membership.. Better go somewhere else if you cant handle it
> 
> I know it's humiliating after begging and pleading to be included in to the big boys club, Just to be rejected like a piece of crap.. But the real world is not Bollywood fantasy.. More you lot realize it better for your sanity



Sorry, but in issues of security no need to take inputs from a glorified beach resort.

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## Gibbs

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Sorry, but in issues of security no need to take inputs from a glorified beach resort.



It looks like the UNSC big boys thinks the same of you.. Unfortunately you'd be lucky to be called a beach resort..

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## AndrewJin

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool the two are completely different things/scenarios. The U.S was fighting for its own independence and ability to decide its own fate and be a power in its own right, not merely an extentsion of our empire/territory, and there was not much at stake as it was not a world war.
> China on the other hand had nevrr been colonised(though it had some of its territory taken away/forcely leased by western powers and Russia), it was always independent hence no need to fight a war for independence as itbwas alredy independent/self ruled. So uou cant compare the two. So yes i stand by my point, China would have fared far more better had there been no civil war/rebellions internally prior to japan invading the country, that no secret, just common sense. Do you think the PRC couldohave even fared so well dring the korean war after the civil war ended, if she was still fighting a full scale bloody civil war back home against an embolden rebel group? It wouldnt have even entered thebwar in that situation. its like syrian governemnt deciding to go a foreign expedition in say iraq or fighting israel while fighting rebels in its territory. Little chance of success giving these circumstances.


All P5 countries fought together during WWII.
Even China was so weak at that time, Chinese never gave up.

Some biggest demon-crazy at the same time just begged their colonial masters to for peace, inheriting railway system and national language from Britain. Btw, their biggest contribution in WWII I think was to have an Indian lawyer who said Japanese Nazi was innocent, who is still a hero respected in both Japan and India.

And until today, they still blame British, for example when a railway accident happens. So many years after independence, it's a miracle they still have so many stunted children given the fact they have more arable land than China, blame whom? Maybe British or that Italian.

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## Guynextdoor2

Gibbs said:


> It looks like the UNSC big boys thinks the same of you.. Unfortunately you'd be lucky to be called a beach resort..



Asking you for inputs on national security is like asking my dishwasher what he thought about the China I bought from Dansk Design.

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## LowPost

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The UNSC was made to stop another "World War".
> 
> Not to stop regular wars and insurgencies, but to stop another "World War".



Precisely. As much as flawed it might be, the UNSC and the UN itself were head and shoulders above and much much more effective than the ill-fated League of Nations.

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## AndrewJin

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> India is not even a proper country. It's questionable whether it will remain a union for the remainder of the century.
> 
> UK is very strong in sports and was 3rd in the Olympics last time. British culture is still influential and the British military-industrial complex is world class.
> 
> India is beyond a joke in economics, technology, military, culture, etc.
> 
> Britain taught India everything, they gave you a country, they gave you infrastructure, they gave a language so you can communicate between your British-created country.


Just have a look at FINA Championship in Kazan which has just ended a couple of days ago,
the top 6 is P5+ super sport power Australia.
Coincident?







SrNair said:


> .But was also successfull in lifting 300 million in to middle class.


Indian middle class, a total joke.
According to living standards of Indian middle class, China can have 1 billion.



Gibbs said:


> Like how some of you Indians have such a massive inferiority complex, That they have to derail and drag in others things totally irrelevant to the subject ?.. Yeah that is a waste of time
> 
> As for anybody to comment of any subject matter relevant to the thread.. Tough shit to you.. This is a Pakistani forum with a global membership.. Better go somewhere else if you cant handle it
> 
> I know it's humiliating after begging and pleading to be included in to the big boys club, Just to be rejected like a piece of crap.. But the real world is not Bollywood fantasy.. More you lot realize it better for your sanity.. G'day


The truth is they don't have legitimacy gained from WWII or overall national strength like Japan/Germany.

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## terranMarine

@AndrewJin 
I have read from so many Indians that India will be joining UNSC, damn what a blow to their deluded dream. India is not a worthy country joining the P5 period. They are as invisible as in any major sport events, no where to be seen.

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## Mr.Nair

terranMarine said:


> @AndrewJin
> I have read from so many Indians that India will be joining UNSC, damn what a blow to their deluded dream. India is not a worthy country joining the P5 period. They are as invisible as in any major sport events, no where to be seen.



China was in P5 just because they are super power in sports at that time,there is a limit for chinese bullcrap.


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## Mitro

If India test intercontinental ballistic missile and also launch SLBM with ten thousand KM range these country will invite India and give them veto and security council seat hurray

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## Speeder 2

mike2000 is back said:


> It has much less to do with R&D or industry/infustrialization etc if it did then germany and Japan will be part of P5 OBVIOUSLY. China also didnt have a large industr*y(it was an agrarian society when the UNSC was formed*) or R&D.



Yes, but there are more:

WW2 established the US as the most powerful country on earth.

it was largely the US who called the shot in the process of forming UNSC.

So apart from the reasons you said (independent...large...victors...etc) , most importantly deep in the psyche and knowledge base of the US elites at a time, (imperial) China had always been the most powerful in East Asia in the history hence the mother civilization of the entire Far Eastern Asia regardless it was an agrarian society at a time or not. Hence China in the UNSC was the MUST if the US wanted to have a long term strong influence in Asia. To understand that deeply, you need to watch this vid fully:

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## AndrewJin

terranMarine said:


> @AndrewJin
> I have read from so many Indians that India will be joining UNSC, damn what a blow to their deluded dream. India is not a worthy country joining the P5 period. They are as invisible as in any major sport events, no where to be seen.


Worst in life expectancy, worst in HDI, worst in social equality, worst in sanitation, worst in infra, worst in women's rights.
Let such a country into UNSC is a humiliation to UN.
Germany is more qualified.

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## terranMarine

AndrewJin said:


> Worst in life expectancy, worst in HDI, worst in social equality, worst in sanitation, worst in infra, worst in women's rights.
> Let such a country into UNSC is a humiliation to UN.
> Germany is more qualified.


India is just hopeless, i don't see why they insist they are worthy of becoming a permanent member. Such obsessiveness is unhealthy.

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## Speeder 2

dy1022 said:


> Yes sir, Just look at what's Mike 2000 is back said in here, we'll know one day ,There will be no Uk but India in the P5 club!
> 
> 
> Maybe Mike should eat more Fish and chips for saving Briton where 300 days out of 365 are rainning!



I think this Mike 2000 is likely an ethnic Sri Lankan (or somewhere of South Asia) who lives in the UK. perhaps he is even some sort of Chinese-related given his knowledge on China? Who knows.

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## AndrewJin

terranMarine said:


> India is just hopeless, i don't see why they insist they are worthy of becoming a permanent member. Such obsessiveness is unhealthy.


And now they blame British colonists who gave them national language, a whole independent country which never existed before, legal system, higher education, etc.

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## Mr.Nair

Funny my message deleted by moderator, no wonder pdf is pakistan-chini bhai bhai


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## Speeder 2

Guynextdoor2 said:


> No Indian has justified Japanese War Crimes. That is a blatant lie.



You'd better google up an Indian judge at the Tokyo War Crime Tribunal post WW2.

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## Guynextdoor2

Speeder 2 said:


> You'd better google up an Indian judge at the Tokyo War Crime Tribunal post WW2.



One guy says something and that reflects the whole country? In any case your claims are still false. He did not say that the war crimes were not commited but that the legal basis of the tribunals were suspect. A helluva lot of difference

While finding that 'the evidence is still overwhelming that atrocities were perpetrated by the members of the Japanese armed forces against the civilian population of some of the territories occupied by them as also against the prisoners of war', he produced a judgment questioning the legitimacy of the tribunal and its rulings. *He held the view that the legitimacy of the tribunal was suspect and questionable, because the spirit of retribution, and not impartial justice, was the underlying criterion for passing the judgment.*


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## mike2000 is back

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> India is not even a proper country. It's questionable whether it will remain a union for the remainder of the century.
> 
> UK is very strong in sports and was 3rd in the Olympics last time. British culture is still influential and the British military-industrial complex is world class.
> 
> India is beyond a joke in economics, technology, military, culture, etc.
> 
> Britain taught India everything, they gave you a country, they gave you infrastructure, they gave a language so you can communicate between your British-created country.



Dont bother with that Indian member mate. He is but one person and doesnt represent all indians on here whowho are more level headed and down to earth. 
Secret to deal with such delusional members is just to give them a 1 or 2 line sentence as reply, like i did above , dont bave time to argue with people who say irrational things or dream of being a bigger power than a country on which they still need help from to build a simply trainer jet fighter and denigrating that same cluntry as insignificant than they are. So just make your point like ioalways do and let him continue ranting


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## KIND

mc bc russian kya kr raha hai? waise india needs to stop this unsc unsc....indians themselve need to develop....

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## AndrewJin

SrNair said:


> 1 billion sweat workers  not middle class.
> But in our nation middle class dont have to work in sweat shops like yours
> They are rich without that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May be.Because they might also take a note to how to rig a democratic election.


U really live in delusion.
No wonder India is such a loser.




mike2000 is back said:


> Dont bother with that Indian member mate. He is but one person and doesnt represent all indians on here whowho are more level headed and down to earth.
> Secret to deal with such delusional members is just to give them a 1 or 2 line sentence as reply, like i did above , dont bave time to argue with people who say irrational things or dream of being a bigger power than a country on which they still need help from to build a simply trainer jet fighter and denigrating that same cluntry as insignificant than they are. So just make your point like ioalways do and let him continue ranting


Exactly.
Better to have more delusional Indians, good luck with Modi.
With such a team, Modi is....Good luck!
Guess Indian rich people are defined as illiterate, malnourished and urinate wherever they want.

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## mike2000 is back

Speeder 2 said:


> I think this Mike 2000 is likely an ethnic Sri Lankan (or somewhere of South Asia) who lives in the UK. perhaps he is even some sort of Chinese-related given his knowledge on China? Who knows.



According to your chinese brothers on here im vjetnamese. Now sri lanka has been added to it , @AndrewJin or some other chinese member who i cant remember the name im african,others have said Iranian, turk, white supremacist, arab, japanese, etc. . now sri lankan. Thats a rather new one

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## AndrewJin

mike2000 is back said:


> According to your chinese brothers on here im vjetnamese. Now sri lanka has been added to it , @AndrewJin or some other chinese member who i cant remember the name im african,others have said Iranian, turk, white supremacist, arab, japanese, etc. . now sri lankan. Thats a rather new one


I never call u Indian though, that is a really humiliating identity.
I think u are French in UK?

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## SrNair

AndrewJin said:


> U really live in delusion.
> No wonder India is such a loser.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> Better to have more delusional Indians, good luck with Modi.
> With such a team, Modi is....Good luck!
> Guess Indian rich people are defined as illiterate, malnourished and urinate wherever they want.
> 
> View attachment 245912




Ok Chinese .


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## Kaniska

That is quite natural..UN power donot want thier power to be diluted...


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## onebyone

AndrewJin said:


> U really live in delusion.
> No wonder India is such a loser.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> Better to have more delusional Indians, good luck with Modi.
> With such a team, Modi is....Good luck!
> Guess Indian rich people are defined as illiterate, malnourished and urinate wherever they want.
> 
> View attachment 245912


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## AndrewJin

onebyone said:


>


Am I speaking too much truth?

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## Guynextdoor2

mike2000 is back said:


> Dont bother with that Indian member mate. He is but one person and doesnt represent all indians on here whowho are more level headed and down to earth.
> Secret to deal with such delusional members is just to give them a 1 or 2 line sentence as reply, like i did above , dont bave time to argue with people who say irrational things or dream of being a bigger power than a country on which they still need help from to build a simply trainer jet fighter and denigrating that same cluntry as insignificant than they are. So just make your point like ioalways do and let him continue ranting



Ha ha! Well I still maintain that it'll be diffuclt for your country to survive if you don't immediately disband the RAF .


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## Whazzup

Hypersonicmissiles said:


> India is not even a proper country. It's questionable whether it will remain a union for the remainder of the century.
> 
> UK is very strong in sports and was 3rd in the Olympics last time. British culture is still influential and the British military-industrial complex is world class.
> 
> India is beyond a joke in economics, technology, military, culture, etc.
> 
> Britain taught India everything, they gave you a country, they gave you infrastructure, they gave a language so you can communicate between your British-created country.



Weather its union will remain? Well its there for the past 68 years some people even after many attempts can't even take Kashmir and you have doubt about India as whole?

India is a joke in terms of economics and tech? seriously prove it I always thought Chinese to be smart cmon you think economics is just pure numbers on a sheet (what you CAG?) a country with such a rich amount of human resource is joke for some people .sigh. 

And BTW if you really think foreign invaders are so good then its a shame Japan lost WW2 I'm sure even after all those crimes it still would have given you such a strong base as a nation.

on topic India don't deserve a permanent seat as of now but the reasons you are giving here are plain stupid (and I'm being polite).


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## AUSTERLITZ

No one should expect this now,we are only starting.2 decades..by 2035-40 it is sure,otherwise UN security council itself will begin to lose relevance if france and britain keep germany,japan and india out.

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## fnv74

Speeder 2 said:


> I bet that after getting this memo, Modi ji will cry and beg, putting on his planket and sunglasses, making a big scene out of it, before rushing to the field to relieve himself


You don't get UNSC seat by culture talks and people occupying high positions in big companies.

Russia took over Crimea by military force.

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## Shotgunner51

mike2000 is back said:


> OUT of these five just three actually got to write the rules of the post war world order, i.e U.K U.S, and U.S.S.R. These three powers were all industrial giants and world powers with interests and influence spanning the entire globe.





mike2000 is back said:


> The other two powers i.e China and France got included in P5 as they were pary of the major independent countries who also took part in the war. but werent major stakeholders in the post war high tables/rule writers for different reasons.



What a complete crap, I am stunned again by your distort of historical facts! About creation of UN:

The earliest concrete plan for a new world organization began under the aegis of the US State Department in 1939.
"Four Policemen" was coined to refer four major Allied countries, United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union, and *Republic of China*, which was emerged in Declaration by United Nations.
On New Year's Day 1942, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, Maxim Litvinov, of the USSR, and T. V. Soong, of China, *signed a short document which later came to be known as the United Nations Declaration* and the next day the representatives of twenty-two other nations (Note: France wasn't there) added their signatures.
During WWII, the United Nations became the official term for the Allies. To join countries had to sign the Declaration and declare war on the Axis

The United Nations was formulated and negotiated among the delegations from the Soviet Union, the UK, the US and Republic of China in Dumbarton Oaks Conference.
The heads of the delegations of the sponsoring countries took turns as chairman of the plenary meetings:Anthony Eden of Britain, Edward Stettinius of the United States, T. V. Soong of China, and Vyacheslav Molotov of the Soviet Union. At the later meetings, Lord Halifax deputized for Mr. Eden, V. K. Wellington Koo for T. V. Soong, and Mr Gromyko for Mr. Molotov.
The UN officially came into existence 24 October 1945, upon ratification of the Charter by the five permanent members of the Security Council.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> Washington is willing to consider specific countries for entry into the UNSC but only after they have proved their credentials in their "ability and willingness to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security and to other purposes of the United Nations". But it will not agree to "any alteration or expansion of the veto".



In layman's term: *"India must grow some balls and show us what they are really made of before we even consider them. P5 members are for countries that have demonstrated the ability to achieve things throughout history. Riding on the back as a former British colony, claiming to invented space flight and 0, and having the biggest mouth from the South are not consider credentials." *

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## Jlaw

Speeder 2 said:


> it's a combination of industries, R&D & patents, military power, and geopolitical influences on a global scale arising prior to, since, and beyond WW2.
> 
> anyway, one of the minimum requirements of entry application forms is in-door plumbing, which stomps India's supa pawa dream, like forever



Plus China fought US + allies in Korea to stalemate. Helped North Vietnam defeat US supported South Vietnam. Defeated india in 1962 while we had the biggest famine in recent history while at the same time USSR threatened to nuke and invade us. 

That is why China is *P*5, while India is *P*eeing.

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## fnv74

Germany started world war 2 which led to UNSC. So Germany deserves a seat at UNSC.


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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> In layman's term: *"India must grow some balls and show us what they are really made of before we even consider them. P5 members are for countries that have demonstrated the ability to achieve things throughout history. Riding on the back as a former British colony, claiming to invented space flight and 0, and having the biggest mouth from the South are not consider credentials." *



I see no reason why China let India have a seat in unsc even the US said yes. India can go create its own system. After all, it has all the soft power.

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## terranMarine

The UNSC is a WW2 legacy and in today's world we can still see the five members remain highly influential powerhouses in their own right. India just does not fit in, end of discussion. The prestige big boys club would become a pussy club overnight should India be allowed to join and the US did the right thing by siding with China and Russia.

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## xunzi

I can tell that the Indian bots are getting hurt over this matter. LOL For India, joining the UNSC is not to try to solve security issue or bring world peace, but it is about face and status. It is a prestige thing, like a trophy for India. For that, nobody wants to see India in especially they don't deserve to sit in one. Even France (the weakest in P5) is still more influential, advance, and powerful overall than India and that say a lot.

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## Icewolf

India will not play cricket with USA for this act of humiliation!

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## badguy2000

xunzi said:


> I can tell that the Indian bots are getting hurt over this matter. LOL For India, joining the UNSC is not to try to solve security issue or bring world peace, but it is about face and status. It is a prestige thing, like a trophy for India. For that, nobody wants to see India in especially they don't deserve to sit in one. Even France (the weakest in P5) is still more influential, advance, and powerful overall than India and that say a lot.


Indeed,it is time to decrease the N.O. of vetoe,instead of increasing vetos,because there are only 4 major powers in the world ,that is,USA,EU,china and russia now. The 4 has global influence. India,japan are still not in the league.

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## cirr

This is only to be expected from a US that wants to hang on to its domination over others for eternity。

So what's all the fuss about？

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## 21stCentury

India brings nothing to the table. The UN P5 originated from the ashes of the Second World War to form a new international order based on the major victorious powers of that era. It is an exclusive club with special privileges.

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## xunzi

I wonder which country in the General Assembly support India into the P5 club? lemme guess, the little Vietnam, Japan, and Philippines? Am I right? LOL

@Viet did your country support India to be permanent member in UNSC?

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## Indika

UN ? what is that, United Numbskulls? UN is totally irrelevant in todays world. MTCR, NSG atleast these technology cartels can deny tangible stuff that are required for advancement. But of what use is UN veto, when they are two camps Russian and American who can bail out india at UN.

Neither america cares for it nor russia bothers about it. Why the big boys even kids like pakistan/north korea with all the nuclear shenanigans dont care to give a damn about it. 

India needs to have economic and military might ,thats it. Any one can pass any resolution in UN and wipe their *** with it. What has happened to UN resolution on kashmir nothing ? so why bother about irrelevant stuff.

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## AndrewJin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Retard it's UN security counsel we are talking about... For which you were begging to join and got screwed by China.
> 
> UNSC can put embargo,sanction and even ask for the use of war against a state... Also you need UNSC's permission on many global issues.
> 
> 
> US is the sole super power but even than it can't get away with it most of the time... Russia is also under sanctions ...hurting its economy ..
> 
> As for "kids" son... You are also a "kid" when it comes to important global issues or UNSC.. Thy recently b1tch slapped you when you went to cry and moan (moving a resolution against Pak) about Pakistan... Embarassing..
> 
> 
> P.S; Pak is older than your country and has kicked your arse... It can pretty much exterminate your skin state... So bitch about your country's size to bang lesh or some other small state... In your North and above you .. You have 2 guys with "pointy nuclear dicks" ready to penetrate... "mother india" ought to be careful.
> 
> 
> "Wait and see" & "Modi jeeeee" are 2 most trending phrases
> 
> 
> Yeah Bhutan,bangladesh or nepal are so important countries
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my india bangladesh route ..
> 
> 
> So are several other countries ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was "first"
> 
> 
> What influence do you have on Afghanistan or Iran ?
> 
> You aren't even allowed in negotiations in Afghan issue .. You have no ties with Iran except as a trading partner .


Sometimes I really appreciate Indians being so ambitious without doing anything practical.
Other people just don't have the guts to brag if they are really weak.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Star Wars said:


> 1. India supported Vietnam's independence from France, opposed American involvement in the Vietnam War, and supported unification of Vietnam. During the Vietnam War, India supported the North, albeit not by conducting military hostilities against the South. This can be contrasted with the policies of the US, who strongly supported the South and engaged in military conflict with the North, albeit without issuing an official declaration of war.



Hardly a FUK was given... at max maybe a statement it two? Nothing on ground .. Also due to india being in the soviet camp.




> 2.1971 war Liberation of Bangladesh


A civil war (Planned and created by india) in another country ... Piggy backing on soviets.




> 3. LTTE, Not the best example, but there you go... and it happened. LTTE was also destroyed using help from India




How did you destroy LTTE? you created it... Heck you even passed resolutions against Sri Lanka.. It was Pak that was sending weapon shipments every week , sending military advisors and according to your own reports PAF pilots took part in that campaign ? It was Pak that trained their military,established their SF.. You were involved in the early 90s (After getting your PM blown by LTTE and were accused of war crimes (And thrown out by SL govt)... Massacre at hospitals etc...And getting almost 5000 indian troops killed with nothing to show on ground..




> 4. India's economic presence and goodwill in Afghanistan has grown considerably ever since 9/11


 And guess what... india has become an irrelevant player in Afghanistan..



> 5. Farkhor Air force base along with Ayni Air force base in Tajakistan is operated by IAF along with Tajakistan Air force



Only Farkhor base is used by india and has established nothing but a field hospital there .. No jets or military assets etc.. 
Russians screwed india on Ayni AB... Tajikistani military is also trained by Pak and uses Pakistani ports for imports and is connected to Pak..

.


> 6. Sri Lanka freeing considerable amount of Indian fisherman after speaking with the PM directly, it has happened more than once already. Also conspiracy theories by Rajapaksha, former President claiming India was responsible for his election loss.


So now SL doesn't shoot indian poachers? 

Rajapaksa is also gaining popularity and the current Sri Lankan PM facing a shitstorm... Paksa is going to win the elections and was supported by Pak and China.. 


> 7. Recently and in the past India has had good enough relations with Myanmar to ask them to fight militants in their territory. Currently we even have the right to cross over to Myanmar and take them down



Myanmar is a vessel state of China and also buys weapons from Pak apart from getting training..




> 8. Bangladesh: Visit the Bangladesh section for all kinds of conspiracy theories, the new bangla govt. has been for some reason extremely friendly towards India..


this shit is epic..



AndrewJin said:


> Sometimes I really appreciate Indians being so ambitious without doing anything practical.
> Other people just don't have the guts to brag if they are really weak.



They love to brag about stuff before it even plan to do something and most of the time it ends up in a disaster ..

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## AndrewJin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> hardly a FUK was given... at max maybe a statement it two? Nothing in ground .. Also due to india being in the soviet camp.
> 
> 
> 
> A civil war in another country ... Piggy backing on soviets.
> 
> 
> 
> how did you destroy LTTE? you created it... Heck you even passed resolutions against Sri Lanka.. It was Pak that was sending weapon shipments every week , sending military advisors and according to your own reports PAF pilots took part in that campaign ? you were involved in the early 90s and were accused of war crimes ... Massacre at hospitals etc...
> 
> 
> 
> and guess what... india has become an irrelevant player in Afghanistan..
> 
> 
> 
> Only Farkhor base is used by india edict has established nothing but a field hospital there .. No jets or military assets etc.. Russians screwed india on Ayni AB... Tajikistani military is also trained by Pak and uses Pakistani ports for imports and us connected to Pak...
> 
> So now SL doesn't shoot indian pochers?
> 
> Rajapaksa is also gaining popularity and the current Sri Lankan PM facing a shitstorm... Paksa is going to win the elections and was supported by Pak and China..
> 
> 
> Myanmar is a vessel state of China and also buys weapons from Pak apart from getting training..
> 
> 
> 
> this shit is epic..
> 
> 
> 
> They love to brag about stuff before it even plan to do something and most of the time it ends up in a disaster ..


They really master future tense and f*ck the present tense.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

AndrewJin said:


> They really master future tense and f*ck the present tense.


They live in the future..2025 .. When india will be a hyper power and Europeans and Americans will work as sweepers in india... They even made a movie about it..

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## AndrewJin

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They live in the future..2025 .. When india will be a hyper power and Europeans and Americans will work as sweepers in india... They even made a movie about it..


A movie?

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## TaiShang

AndrewJin said:


> Sometimes I really appreciate Indians being so ambitious without doing anything practical.
> *Other people just don't have the guts to brag if they are really weak.*



That sums up everything.

And explains why China would not let them joint the UNSC.

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## Devil Soul

Oopz bubble bust bubble bust every where

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## Chinese-Dragon

The Indian members here keep saying, *America got them an NSG waiver*, so America can get India anything that India wants. 

According to this line of logic, America got them an NSG waiver, so America can get them the UNSC and NSG membership as well. And no one can stop them. 

That leads to this question: So why is India always begging China for UNSC and NSG membership?

Modi came to China recently just to ask for the same thing:

PM Narendra Modi asks China to back India's bid for UNSC seat, NSG membership - Economic Times







Modi isn't dumb, he is trying really hard. Anyone who has read the UN charter knows that you need the support of EVERY single one of the P5 members to do this. You can't have even one P5 member voting against it, or even abstaining from voting at all. They all have to support it.

That's how the system works.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


>



This should win the forum video awards. 



eyeswideshut said:


> UN ? what is that, United Numbskulls? UN is totally irrelevant in todays world. MTCR, NSG atleast these technology cartels can deny tangible stuff that are required for advancement. But of what use is UN veto, when they are two camps Russian and American who can bail out india at UN.
> 
> Neither america cares for it nor russia bothers about it. Why the big boys even kids like pakistan/north korea with all the nuclear shenanigans dont care to give a damn about it.
> 
> India needs to have economic and military might ,thats it. Any one can pass any resolution in UN and wipe their *** with it. What has happened to UN resolution on kashmir nothing ? so why bother about irrelevant stuff.



If the UNSC is so useless, why is India so desperate to join it?

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## Viper0011.

Star Wars said:


> Regional influence in South Asia , Leading BBIN , BRICS member ,Second most influential member in the AIIB. Has goodwill and Influence in Afghanistan and Iran..



What does this has to do with the UNSC??? These are influences you get by being a bigger economy and your influence is over hyped inside India too, just being frank. The poster you are arguing with, is right. A billion people's representation isn't the case here. The criteria is different.

What's better? A billion people with all their administrative, cultural, religious issues (Hindus, vs. Muslims, Sikhs, etc, etc, which become a human rights issue by themselves), or say France or Italy with ONLY 10th of the population compared to India. But same or more GDP and no real human rights issues?

When President Obama gave you the advise, he was right. He was looking at this event and he wanted you to fix the human rights and religious tolerance record so a better case can be presented. But you guys got mad as the soup-o-powa India got told. That was sincere advise. But even after he was gone, nothing changed in India and minorities suffered constantly. How do you award a permanent seat to a nation where there are active human rights issues for decades?????

Before you guys jump up and down and comment out of anger, re-read my post and try to understand the good will in it for India!

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## Star Wars

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Also due to india being in the soviet camp.



India wasn't in any camp, we were a part of the NAM which held considerable influence in the devoloping world.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> A civil war (Planned and created by india) in another country ... Piggy backing on soviets.



lol...we destroyed your country and divided it into 2, armed the local militia against your rule and created a new nation and there was nothing you could do about it and held 90,000 prisoners and you are still wailing from the humiliation imposed on you . Only thing soviets did was halt the US 7nth fleet




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How did you destroy LTTE? you created it... Heck you even passed resolutions against Sri Lanka.. It was Pak that was sending weapon shipments every week , sending military advisors and according to your own reports PAF pilots took part in that campaign ? It was Pak that trained their military,established their SF.. You were involved in the early 90s (After getting your PM blown by LTTE and were accused of war crimes (And thrown out by SL govt)... Massacre at hospitals etc...And getting almost 5000 indian troops killed with nothing to show on ground..



How India helped destroy LTTE

How India secretly helped Lanka destroy the LTTE - Rediff.com News

India helped us in war against LTTE: Ranil - The Hindu


Now go and cry 




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> And guess what... india has become an irrelevant player in Afghanistan..



You wish, India has considerable influence in Afghanistan and not to mention generated a lot of goodwill within the Afgan people. Besides, you are probably frustrated your own backyard Hates you




DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Only Farkhor base is used by india and has established nothing but a field hospital there .. No jets or military assets etc..
> Russians screwed india on Ayni AB... Tajikistani military is also trained by Pak and uses Pakistani ports for imports and is connected to Pak..



Irrelevant , that fact is Indian Air force has started to operate Airbases outside the country. How India uses the base is really not your concern.

Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Nepal, Seychelles, Kazakhstan, Lesotho, Papua New Guinea and Ethiopia and many other countries train their military in the INA.

.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So now SL doesn't shoot indian poachers?
> Rajapaksa is also gaining popularity and the current Sri Lankan PM facing a shitstorm... Paksa is going to win the elections and was supported by Pak and China..



Gaining popularity, we,ll see that during elections it is highly unlikely he will win anyway.

Murder probe casts shadow over comeback bid by Sri Lanka’s Rajapaksa| Reuters
Sri Lanka elections: Of tumbling skeletons and bumbling politicians

_However, a pre-election survey showed only 27.5 percent voters preferred him over his bête noir and prime minister Ranil Wickremesinghe, leader of the rival United National Front for Good Governance (UNFGG), who had a near 40 per cent preference._

Say what , Verbal Diarrhea much? 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Myanmar is a vessel state of China and also buys weapons from Pak apart from getting training..



And yet they allow Indian military to enter their territory and kill terrorists.... When was the last time you did that instead of whining in your western front 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> They love to brag about stuff before it even plan to do something and most of the time it ends up in a disaster ..



NO, its just Pakistanis get butthurt when ever something good comes up about India. Its understandable, you people don't have influence even in your own country forget outside it. Either Slaves of America or China..lol some of your butthurt conspiracy theorists were even claiming we hold influence in U.S


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## Pandora

It is such a pity that instead of turning UN into a more democratic organisation India wants to become a part of dictatorship so much for shoving democracy to worlds filthy Arse hole. Current UN structure should be changed as it is based on post world war mindset. Every country should have right to vote.

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## Star Wars

Viper0011. said:


> What does this has to do with the UNSC??? These are influences you get by being a bigger economy and your influence is over hyped inside India too, just being frank. The poster you are arguing with, is right. A billion people's representation isn't the case here. The criteria is different.



The influence was less due to previous govt., current govt. has far more aggressive foreign policy regarding SAARC and regional issues. YOu will only see INdia's influence grow further.



Viper0011. said:


> What's better? A billion people with all their administrative, cultural, religious issues (Hindus, vs. Muslims, Sikhs, etc, etc, which become a human rights issue by themselves), or say France or Italy with ONLY 10th of the population compared to India. But same or more GDP and no real human rights issues?



Overhyped, the domestic issues are as irrelevant as the prevailing race problem that you see in US or the riligous tention that you are noticing in Europe b/e Muslims and native population. The current govt. has very good administration, the current problem with the parliament will go away within a couple of years...



Viper0011. said:


> When President Obama gave you the advise, he was right. He was looking at this event and he wanted you to fix the human rights and religious tolerance record so a better case can be presented. But you guys got mad as the soup-o-powa India got told. That was sincere advise. But even after he was gone, nothing changed in India and minorities suffered constantly. How do you award a permanent seat to a nation where there are active human rights issues for decades?????
> Before you guys jump up and down and comment out of anger, re-read my post and try to understand the good will in it for India!



NO, Obama was pandering to the Christian Evangalicals, nothing more nothing less... the person advices India while there is prevailing problems in his own country and then goes to Saudi Arabia and keeps his mouth shut. Classic case of Hypocricy. You seem less like an American and more like a Pakistani with the whole "*minorities suffering*" nonsense.IF America, China and Russia of all countries can have permanent seat with their human rights history. SO can India. India has never gotten even close to what the member states have done in human rights violation...


Besides UN is an utterly useless organization which has failed in every front. It only acts as a symbol of power, nothing more..


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## Gibbs

While respecting personal views of individual posters about the relevance of the UN system and more specifically the UNSC P5 in today's world, I find it hilarious that they seem to imply the same for their government, Which is not really the case.. They have been making some obnoxious and often desperate statements like they're representing small nations in any given fora and virtually begging in all fours to every single P5 member for acceptance for decades, Only to be tapped on the head and later rebuffed like a soiled nappy 

So to those questioning the relevance of the UNSC or the lack of it to the GoI.. It's simply a case of this..

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## AndrewJin

Gibbs said:


> While respecting personal views of individual posters about the relevance of the UN system and more specifically the UNSC P5 in today's world, I find it hilarious that they seem to imply the same for their government, Which is not really the case.. They have been making some obnoxious and often desperate statements like they're representing small nations in any given fora and virtually begging in all fours to every single P5 member for acceptance for decades, Only to be tapped on the head and later rebuffed like a soiled nappy
> 
> So to those questioning the relevance of the UNSC or the lack of it to the GoI.. It's simply a case of this..


And being the watchdog to some certain P5 doesn't give it the right to enter the house.


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## Hypersonicmissiles

Great to see India firmly put in its place.

Absolutely loving it.

India has no business getting anywhere near the UNSC.

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## mike2000 is back

Shotgunner51 said:


> What a complete crap, I am stunned again by your distort of historical facts! About creation of UN:
> 
> The earliest concrete plan for a new world organization began under the aegis of the US State Department in 1939.
> "Four Policemen" was coined to refer four major Allied countries, United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union, and *Republic of China*, which was emerged in Declaration by United Nations.
> On New Year's Day 1942, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, Maxim Litvinov, of the USSR, and T. V. Soong, of China, *signed a short document which later came to be known as the United Nations Declaration* and the next day the representatives of twenty-two other nations (Note: France wasn't there) added their signatures.
> During WWII, the United Nations became the official term for the Allies. To join countries had to sign the Declaration and declare war on the Axis
> 
> The United Nations was formulated and negotiated among the delegations from the Soviet Union, the UK, the US and Republic of China in Dumbarton Oaks Conference.
> The heads of the delegations of the sponsoring countries took turns as chairman of the plenary meetings:Anthony Eden of Britain, Edward Stettinius of the United States, T. V. Soong of China, and Vyacheslav Molotov of the Soviet Union. At the later meetings, Lord Halifax deputized for Mr. Eden, V. K. Wellington Koo for T. V. Soong, and Mr Gromyko for Mr. Molotov.
> The UN officially came into existence 24 October 1945, upon ratification of the Charter by the five permanent members of the Security Council.



I never said otherwise, but you miss an important point. So much for your so called facts yet again. Lool

I quote: "The idea for the United Nations was elaborated in declarations signed at wartime Allied conferences in Moscow, Cairo and Tehran in 1943. From August to October 1944, representatives of France, the Republic of China, the United Kingdom, the United States, and the Soviet Union met to elaborate the plans at the Dumbarton Oaks Conference in Washington, D.C. ". 

What you failed to point out(and this was the most important part where crucial decisions were taken) is that :

"Those talks(the Dumbarton Oaks Conference talks) were productive but INCONCLUSIVE, and were followed by the Yalta Conference (A MEETING OF THE U.S., U.K., AND USSR IN THE CRIMEA) in February 1945, which produced proposals outlining the purposes of the organization, its membership and organs, as well as arrangements to maintain international peace and security and international economic and social cooperation."

United Nations - New World Encyclopedia


So as you can see ROC (and even France as well) wasnt part of the crimean talks/meetings which decided the fate of the U.N and where the crucial decisions were taken and rules made, which went on to be implemneted by the U.N and followed by the world.

Now ask yourself why the ROC was absent during the crimean conference of 1945(i.e just as the war ended, hence where the important discussions and rules were written made)?? 
Answer as i said before was that at the end of the war, as Japanese troops were surrendering the KMT was busy/had its hands full on fighting the rebels(CCP) who had benefited enourmously from Japans invasion of China and from the looting of japanese weapons/equipments many of which were better than what even the KMT government troops had. So the CCP was embolden and had greatly increased its ranks with soldiers/volunteers from the countryside during Japanese invasion and weakening of KMT governement forces.

So China(ROC) had little to no interest/focus on participating in such a conference. The KMT/CHIANG kai shek had its hanfs full fighting its greatest ennemies at home already for its own survival. External influence/world power meant little to nothing to them when ghey were fighting for their very own survival. Reason ROC after the WWII despite being a victor didnt really participated in writing world rules, of which things like for example the senkakus islands could have been(with proper negotiation/bargaining with th U.S of course)ceeded back to her after Japans defeat. So the bloody civil war indeed weakened its position/bargaining chip .

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## XiaoYaoZi

mike2000 is back said:


> I never said otherwise, but you miss an important point. So much for your so called facts yet again. Lool
> 
> I quote: "The idea for the United Nations was elaborated in declarations signed at wartime Allied conferences in Moscow, Cairo and Tehran in 1943. From August to October 1944, representatives of France, the Republic of China, the United Kingdom, the United States, and the Soviet Union met to elaborate the plans at the Dumbarton Oaks Conference in Washington, D.C. ".
> 
> What you failed to point out(and this was the most important part where crucial decisions were taken) is that :
> 
> "Those talks(the Dumbarton Oaks Conference talks) were productive but INCONCLUSIVE, and were followed by the Yalta Conference (A MEETING OF THE U.S., U.K., AND USSR IN THE CRIMEA) in February 1945, which produced proposals outlining the purposes of the organization, its membership and organs, as well as arrangements to maintain international peace and security and international economic and social cooperation."
> 
> United Nations - New World Encyclopedia
> 
> 
> So as you can see ROC (and even France as well) wasnt part of the crimean talks/meetings which decided the fate of the U.N and where the crucial decisions were taken and rules made, which went on to be implemneted by the U.N and followed by the world.
> 
> Now ask yourself why the ROC was absent during the crimean conference of 1945(i.e just as the war ended, hence where the important discussions and rules were written made)??
> Answer as i said before was that at the end of the war, as Japanese troops were surrendering the KMT was busy/had its hands full on fighting the rebels(CCP) who had benefited enourmously from Japans invasion of China and from the looting of japanese weapons/equipments many of which were better than what even the KMT government troops had. So the CCP was embolden and had greatly increased its ranks with soldiers/volunteers from the countryside during Japanese invasion and weakening of KMT governement forces.
> 
> So China(ROC) had little to no interest/focus on participating in such a conference. The KMT/CHIANG kai shek had its hanfs full fighting its greatest ennemies at home already for its own survival. External influence/world power meant little to nothing to them when ghey were fighting for their very own survival. Reason ROC after the WWII despite being a victor didnt really participated in writing world rules, of which things like for example the senkakus islands could have been(with proper negotiation/bargaining with th U.S of course)ceeded back to her after Japans defeat. So the bloody civil war indeed weakened its position/bargaining chip .


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## Viper0011.

Star Wars said:


> NO, *Obama was pandering to the Christian Evangalicals, nothing more nothing less... the person advices India while there is prevailing problems in his own country and then goes to Saudi Arabia and keeps his mouth shut. *Classic case of Hypocricy. *You seem less like an American and more like a Pakistani with the whole "minorities suffering" nonsense*.
> 
> *IF America, China and Russia of all countries can have permanent seat with their human rights history. SO can India. India has never gotten even close to what the member states have done in human rights violation...*
> 
> 
> *Besides UN is an utterly useless organization which has failed in every front. It only acts as a symbol of power, nothing more..*



The more I debate with Indian members, the more comical it gets. Here's what you are saying to India's human rights abuse:

1) Obama wasn't talking about human rights issue, he was working on Evangelicals agenda. So essentially you told me that there was NO human resource issue and the POTUS was just spreading the Christian agenda of some sort 

2) Next, why would Obama say anything to India, we have our issues with minorities too......meaning that who are we to tell you about human rights when we have issues inside out own country. So you are telling me that Obama should've instead take care of our own issues instead of telling India so now there ARE issues inside India. You are going in OPPOSITE direction just in two statements. As you are clearly saying there are no issues in India and then there ARE issues but who the hell are we to tell you. Great, . So I am GLAD you admit that after going in circles that human rights are a big issue in India. 
By the way, take the number of Christians and Muslims killed in India by Hindu extremists over the last two year and match that with the US minorities number killed. You WILL NOT even get .5% of what happens in India. Yes, NOT EVEN POINT 5 (.5) percent!!!! See how big of an issue you have inside India and you are ignoring it!!!!

3) Because I brought up the abusive and violent treatment of minorities, I MUST be a Pakistani. So.....does that mean OBAMA was a Pakistani too as he brought the same thing up during his visit to India . None of you have any logic coming out of your posts on this topic. 

4) Then you are saying all countries (China, Russia, the US, etc) have the permanent seat in the US. So India should too. And obviously, the amount of lobbying you are doing for years, and even the sentiment here by reading online posts, is pretty clear that India needed a seat in the UN. So its VERY important to you. B

5) The next line after number 4 says the UN is a useless organization!!!  Then why put SO MUCH effort into it to get a full, permanent membership? Right above calling the UN, you said that India should be given the seat too as the US, Russians, the Chinese, everyone has that. 

Since India didn't get it, now it becomes useless? Do you even HAVE a stance on these things? Your post has one statement, and the next one is opposite of it. Then another statement, and the next one has an entirely opposite opinion. Its JUST like that Indian head-shake. Is it a yes or a no or both?

In one stance, you are saying India has no human rights issues. But then when Obama told you, he was working on Evangelicals agenda. And that there are issues but so are issues in the US too. So Obama shouldn't lecture India. Then you called me a Pakistani because I brought this up, since it not an issue and I am doing propaganda apparently (but you just told me right above calling me a Pakistani that why would POTUS tell India when the US has similar issues). So whether I am a Pakistan, Japanese, Thai or an American, the real answer is, there is an issue. But we should ALL never say anything as its the big soup-o-powa India!!! Nice.

And then, you are saying India must be given a seat and since it wasn't given, the UN becomes a "uselss organization" !!! Phew, talk about lack of common sense and the ability to take a stance!!!

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## Jlaw

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The Indian members here keep saying, *America got them an NSG waiver*, so America can get India anything that India wants.
> 
> According to this line of logic, America got them an NSG waiver, so America can get them the UNSC and NSG membership as well. And no one can stop them.
> 
> That leads to this question: So why is India always begging China for UNSC and NSG membership?
> 
> Modi came to China recently just to ask for the same thing:
> 
> PM Narendra Modi asks China to back India's bid for UNSC seat, NSG membership - Economic Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modi isn't dumb, he is trying really hard. Anyone who has read the UN charter knows that you need the support of EVERY single one of the P5 members to do this. You can't have even one P5 member voting against it, or even abstaining from voting at all. They all have to support it.
> 
> That's how the system works.
> 
> 
> 
> This should win the forum video awards.
> 
> 
> 
> If the UNSC is so useless, why is India so desperate to join it?



Can anyone answer why Modi was wearing a dress?

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## Star Wars

Viper0011. said:


> The more I debate with Indian members, the more comical it gets. Here's what you are saying to India's human rights abuse:
> 
> 1) Obama wasn't talking about human rights issue, he was working on Evangelicals agenda. So essentially you told me that there was NO human resource issue and the POTUS was just spreading the Christian agenda of some sort



Considering the amount of smiley's you have its obvious that you are irritated and upset. Next time don't be so obvious about your emotional state. 

Yes, he is pandering to the Evangalical NGO lobby




Viper0011. said:


> 2) Next, why would Obama say anything to India, we have our issues with minorities too......meaning that who are we to tell you about human rights when we have issues inside out own country. So you are telling me that Obama should've instead take care of our own issues instead of telling India so now there ARE issues inside India. You are going in OPPOSITE direction just in two statements. As you are clearly saying there are no issues in India and then there ARE issues but who the hell are we to tell you. Great, . So I am GLAD you admit that after going in circles that human rights are a big issue in India.



Idle banter without making any sense, every country has its domestic issue they should stick to fixing their domestic issues rather than commenting on others..



Viper0011. said:


> By the way, take the number of Christians and Muslims killed in India by Hindu extremists over the last two year and match that with the US minorities number killed. You WILL NOT even get .5% of what happens in India. Yes, NOT EVEN POINT 5 (.5) percent!!!! See how big of an issue you have inside India and you are ignoring it!!!!



How many were killed ? less BS more substance, prove your alligations. Mind telling me what happened to the Hindus in Pakistan when it was the second largest Nation with a Hindu population ?




Viper0011. said:


> 3) Because I brought up the abusive and violent treatment of minorities, I MUST be a Pakistani. So.....does that mean OBAMA was a Pakistani too as he brought the same thing up during his visit to India . None of you have any logic coming out of your posts on this topic.



no, you are a Pakistani your interest on Pakistani politics and current events proves that quiet easily, don't fool the others.. And Americans arn't so obsessed with Indian minorities as Pakistanis are. As i said, Prove your point instead of Farting from the keyboard 



Viper0011. said:


> 4) Then you are saying all countries (China, Russia, the US, etc) have the permanent seat in the US. So India should too. And obviously, the amount of lobbying you are doing for years, and even the sentiment here by reading online posts, is pretty clear that India needed a seat in the UN. So its VERY important to you. B



Where did i say that ? want to quote where i said i want India in the UNSC, i simply pointed the the member Nations have a history of Hypocrisy..



Viper0011. said:


> 5) The next line after number 4 says the UN is a useless organization!!!  Then why put SO MUCH effort into it to get a full, permanent membership? Right above calling the UN, you said that India should be given the seat too as the US, Russians, the Chinese, everyone has that.



Again where did i suggest India should be given a seat  Learn to read English MR.American 



Viper0011. said:


> Since India didn't get it, now it becomes useless? Do you even HAVE a stance on these things? Your post has one statement, and the next one is opposite of it. Then another statement, and the next one has an entirely opposite opinion. Its JUST like that Indian head-shake. Is it a yes or a no or both?



It useless from the very beginning, its a fact, when member countries themselves are involved in countless wars. You know it is useless...



Viper0011. said:


> In one stance, you are saying India has no human rights issues. But then when Obama told you, he was working on Evangelicals agenda. And that there are issues but so are issues in the US too. So Obama shouldn't lecture India. Then you called me a Pakistani because I brought this up, since it not an issue and I am doing propaganda apparently (but you just told me right above calling me a Pakistani that why would POTUS tell India when the US has similar issues). So whether I am a Pakistan, Japanese, Thai or an American, the real answer is, there is an issue. But we should ALL never say anything as its the big soup-o-powa India!!! Nice.



lol ....fail grammar form the so called American..why are you needlessly repeating your points. Besides its a Failed argument as i stated above..



Viper0011. said:


> And then, you are saying India must be given a seat and since it wasn't given, the UN becomes a "uselss organization" !!! Phew, talk about lack of common sense and the ability to take a stance!!!



Again, where did i say India must be given a seat


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## 21stCentury

Jlaw said:


> Can anyone answer why Modi was wearing a dress?



Maybe Modiji thinks that by wearing his wife's dress he would have a greater chance at negotiations

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## Hypersonicmissiles

Viper0011. said:


> The more I debate with Indian members, the more comical it gets. Here's what you are saying to India's human rights abuse:
> 
> 1) Obama wasn't talking about human rights issue, he was working on Evangelicals agenda. So essentially you told me that there was NO human resource issue and the POTUS was just spreading the Christian agenda of some sort
> 
> 2) Next, why would Obama say anything to India, we have our issues with minorities too......meaning that who are we to tell you about human rights when we have issues inside out own country. So you are telling me that Obama should've instead take care of our own issues instead of telling India so now there ARE issues inside India. You are going in OPPOSITE direction just in two statements. As you are clearly saying there are no issues in India and then there ARE issues but who the hell are we to tell you. Great, . So I am GLAD you admit that after going in circles that human rights are a big issue in India.
> By the way, take the number of Christians and Muslims killed in India by Hindu extremists over the last two year and match that with the US minorities number killed. You WILL NOT even get .5% of what happens in India. Yes, NOT EVEN POINT 5 (.5) percent!!!! See how big of an issue you have inside India and you are ignoring it!!!!
> 
> 3) Because I brought up the abusive and violent treatment of minorities, I MUST be a Pakistani. So.....does that mean OBAMA was a Pakistani too as he brought the same thing up during his visit to India . None of you have any logic coming out of your posts on this topic.
> 
> 4) Then you are saying all countries (China, Russia, the US, etc) have the permanent seat in the US. So India should too. And obviously, the amount of lobbying you are doing for years, and even the sentiment here by reading online posts, is pretty clear that India needed a seat in the UN. So its VERY important to you. B
> 
> 5) The next line after number 4 says the UN is a useless organization!!!  Then why put SO MUCH effort into it to get a full, permanent membership? Right above calling the UN, you said that India should be given the seat too as the US, Russians, the Chinese, everyone has that.
> 
> Since India didn't get it, now it becomes useless? Do you even HAVE a stance on these things? Your post has one statement, and the next one is opposite of it. Then another statement, and the next one has an entirely opposite opinion. Its JUST like that Indian head-shake. Is it a yes or a no or both?
> 
> In one stance, you are saying India has no human rights issues. But then when Obama told you, he was working on Evangelicals agenda. And that there are issues but so are issues in the US too. So Obama shouldn't lecture India. Then you called me a Pakistani because I brought this up, since it not an issue and I am doing propaganda apparently (but you just told me right above calling me a Pakistani that why would POTUS tell India when the US has similar issues). So whether I am a Pakistan, Japanese, Thai or an American, the real answer is, there is an issue. But we should ALL never say anything as its the big soup-o-powa India!!! Nice.
> 
> And then, you are saying India must be given a seat and since it wasn't given, the UN becomes a "uselss organization" !!! Phew, talk about lack of common sense and the ability to take a stance!!!



If India miraculously got a seat in the UNSC, they will come here and brag about how they are now a superpower.

But now that India got b*tch slapped, all of a sudden the UNSC is useless 

If it's useless why bother spending so much effort to get in the UNSC? 

Make no mistake, India got its pants pulled down. They got embarrassed.

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## fallstuff

Giving India a permanent seat with veto power does not serve the cause of other 5 veto powered members. India needs to make itself economically stronger which will open the door by default instead of going around begging for it.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Syama Ayas said:


> Whats with your perverted affinity to visualize Modi in women's clothing? Seems like misogynism has gotten the best of you



LOL some Pakistani member posted this picture in another thread, I just re-posted it.

It's not my fault if Modi has such a strange fashion sense.

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## Viper0011.

Star Wars said:


> Considering the amount of smiley's you have its obvious that you are irritated and upset. Next time don't be so obvious about your emotional state.
> Yes, he is pandering to the Evangalical NGO lobby
> Idle banter without making any sense, every country has its domestic issue they should stick to fixing their domestic issues rather than commenting on others..
> 
> How many were killed ? less BS more substance, prove your alligations. Mind telling me what happened to the Hindus in Pakistan when it was the second largest Nation with a Hindu population ?
> 
> no, you are a Pakistani your interest on Pakistani politics and current events proves that quiet easily, don't fool the others.. And Americans arn't so obsessed with Indian minorities as Pakistanis are. As i said, Prove your point instead of Farting from the keyboard
> 
> Where did i say that ? want to quote where i said i want India in the UNSC, i simply pointed the the member Nations have a history of Hypocrisy..
> 
> 
> Again where did i suggest India should be given a seat  Learn to read English MR.American
> 
> It useless from the very beginning, its a fact, when member countries themselves are involved in countless wars. You know it is useless...
> 
> Again, where did i say India must be given a seat



Here is your post and I am quoting from it: 
*



IF America, China and Russia of all countries can have permanent seat with their human rights history. SO can India. India has never gotten even close to what the member states have done in human rights violation...

Click to expand...

*
Read your post again. You people are like 12 year old and act like you are on periods. On one hand, you call the UN useless, in the next you ask for the seat. You complain about Obama that he was trying to focus on an Evangelical agenda, when he was outlining the terrorism conducted on religious bases similar to Al-Qaeda, by the Hindu extremists in BJP, RSS and Shiv Sena, where they kill and damage thousands of people from minority religions in India. Whoever calls this issue out, is EITHER working on an Agenda or is a Pakistani. Meaning India has no problem.

Do you believe in human rights? Do you denounce terrorism conducted by Hindus who kill Christians and Muslims???? Or is it a two faced India, who only bit*ches about it when someone else does it? How about you clear your stance on denouncing terrorism and then we can talk.

I posted a couple of articles for you. There are a TON of videos out there too, showing what the barbaric Hindus do to minorities in India. You can google them and see them yourself. I can't post those due to forum policies!!

Focus on the topic, not my flags, not Obama working on Evangelical agenda, not where I am from (pretty visible in my signatures), not personals. Stay focused on the topic and answer the above parts. No Indian style diversion from the topic. Let's debate and see what you got!


Hindus rewarded for killing Christians

Convert or we will kill you, Hindu lynch mobs tell fleeing Christians | World news | The Guardian


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## Star Wars

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL some Pakistani member posted this picture in another thread, I just re-posted it.
> 
> It's not my fault if Modi has such a strange fashion sense.



Adobe Photoshop... Its a pretty good software, Have you used it ?


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## mike2000 is back

Jlaw said:


> Can anyone answer why Modi was wearing a dress?


LOL I was about to ask the same question. Guess its just a photoshop i suppose?


----------



## Star Wars

Viper0011. said:


> Here is your post and I am quoting from it:



Am pointing out why Humanitarian rights plays little role here as the P5 nations have their own history with wars and human rights. American 



Viper0011. said:


> Read your post again. You people are like 12 year old and act like you are on periods. On one hand, you call the UN useless, in the next you ask for the seat. You complain about Obama that he was trying to focus on an Evangelical agenda, when he was outlining the terrorism conducted on religious bases similar to Al-Qaeda, by the Hindu extremists in BJP, RSS and Shiv Sena, where they kill and damage thousands of people from minority religions in India. Whoever calls this issue out, is EITHER working on an Agenda or is a Pakistani. Meaning India has no problem.



WTF are you on about ? don't talk like a senile old man...if you have allegations prove it. DOn't blabber nonsense 



Viper0011. said:


> Do you believe in human rights? Do you denounce terrorism conducted by Hindus who kill Christians and Muslims???? Or is it a two faced India, who only bit*ches about it when someone else does it? How about you clear your stance on denouncing terrorism and then we can talk.



Again, the person making the allegation has to prove his nonsense 



Viper0011. said:


> I posted a couple of articles for you. There are a TON of videos out there too, showing what the barbaric Hindus do to minorities in India. You can google them and see them yourself. I can't post those due to forum policies!!



Riots happen here and there every couple of years, its normal when you are a country so diverse, we dont just wipe out the minorities like Pakistanis do.. Hindus also get killed in them, but who cares about Hindus right only the minorities re human beings..



Viper0011. said:


> Hindus rewarded for killing Christians
> 
> Convert or we will kill you, Hindu lynch mobs tell fleeing Christians | World news | The Guardian



Really? Speroforum ? and a 7 year old news ? and yet the minorities prosper in this country ...


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## Chinese-Dragon

Jlaw said:


> Can anyone answer why Modi was wearing a dress?



Ren yao maybe, I don't know.

You'd have to ask him. Maybe he thought he would get the UNSC and NSG membership that way?

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## AndrewJin

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Ren yao maybe, I don't know.
> 
> You'd have to ask him. Maybe he thought he would get the UNSC and NSG membership that way?


His original cloth is also funny.

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## salmanACCA

Chinese-Dragon said:


> LOL some Pakistani member posted this picture in another thread, I just re-posted it.
> 
> It's not my fault if Modi has such a strange fashion sense.


hahaha you have stolen one of my finest pieces of photoshop

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## AndrewJin

salmanACCA said:


> hahaha you have stolen one of my finest pieces of photoshop


Even without PS, the photo is funny too.
Anyway, brilliant work!

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## AndrewJin

Syama Ayas said:


> None of your post addresses your self-hating tendency towards your own culture
> @SpArK the bolded part


Bro, u really need some drugs.
Speaking English everyday in India is not your fault.

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## rott

Lots of butt-hurting comments in the TOI comments section. 
Chinese members, don't miss it. It's a treasure of a lifetime.

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## 21stCentury

rott said:


> Lots of butt-hurting comments in the TOI comments section.
> Chinese members, don't miss it. It's a treasure of a lifetime.



toi-let news is always good entertainment lol

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## Gibbs

Just checked out the Times of India article and it's comments section.. Never seen such a deluded bunch of people, They truly believe in fantasies of their own.

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## Jlaw

21stCentury said:


> toi-let news is always good entertainment lol

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DESERT FIGHTER said:


>


HAHAHHAHAHA ... you gotta be sh&**^^ me!

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## Speeder 2

rott said:


> Lots of butt-hurting comments in the TOI comments section.
> Chinese members, don't miss it. It's a treasure of a lifetime.



It's tempting that I would probably register an account there and remind them of in-door plumbing at this historical moment. 

First, indoor plumbing, then, UNSC.

First, water on Earth, then, water on Mars.

Is that simple?

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

DESERT FIGHTER said:


>


Is Christine Fair's rickshaw ride in here somewhere too?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Star Wars said:


> India wasn't in any camp, we were a part of the NAM which held considerable influence in the devoloping world.


whay influence? Did you support vietnam in any way,?? 

They were supplied weapons by China and USSR... Nobody gave a Fuk about india..



> lol...we destroyed your country and divided it into 2, armed the local militia against your rule and created a new nation and there was nothing you could do about it and held 90,000 prisoners and you are still wailing from the humiliation imposed on you . Only thing soviets did was halt the US 7nth fleet


a civil war with 75 million support thsts your fukin achievement? 

We raped you for 1000 years...





> How India helped destroy LTTE
> 
> How India secretly helped Lanka destroy the LTTE - Rediff.com News
> 
> India helped us in war against LTTE: Ranil - The Hindu
> 
> 
> Now go and cry


all indian sources and from current SL PM.. What was happening when the war was being fought? you were playing your dirty domestic politics... Where your govts supported ltte... Let me tag SL Members @Gibbs. @Azizam





> You wish, India has considerable influence in Afghanistan and not to mention generated a lot of goodwill within the Afgan people. Besides, you are probably frustrated your own backyard Hates you



influence my arse... You are already packing your bag ... No "mining contracts".. No land route ... Not involved in any strategic decisions or confrence a negotiations .. And a lot of butthurt .. Your papers and media is crying day and out..




> Irrelevant , that fact is Indian Air force has started to operate Airbases outside the country. How India uses the base is really not your concern.


Your so called hospital has been in Tajikistan since 90s yet no a since fuk was given..





> Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Nepal, Seychelles, Kazakhstan, Lesotho, Papua New Guinea and Ethiopia and many other countries train their military in the INA.



 We train all ME,Central Asians,Ethiopians,Sudan,Nigeria,Niger,Zambia,Chad,Nepal,Sri Lanka and even bangladesh.. And myanmar .. Even Indinesians,Malay etc who also use our weapons 
.


> Gaining popularity, we,ll see that during elections it is highly unlikely he will win anyway.
> 
> Murder probe casts shadow over comeback bid by Sri Lanka’s Rajapaksa| Reuters
> Sri Lanka elections: Of tumbling skeletons and bumbling politicians
> 
> _However, a pre-election survey showed only 27.5 percent voters preferred him over his bête noir and prime minister Ranil Wickremesinghe, leader of the rival United National Front for Good Governance (UNFGG), who had a near 40 per cent preference._
> 
> Say what , Verbal Diarrhea much?




Let the Sri Lankans decide who the Fuk are you ? The chai Wala 



> And yet they allow Indian military to enter their territory and kill terrorists.... When was the last time you did that instead of whining in your western front



Lol .. We literally own Afghanistan,, and don't you complain how we cross into your country and beheadand kill your troops (your claims)..

P.S: your much touted operation was done on your on border with Myanmar or at max just a meters distance within the myanmar territory (myanmar the vessel state of China) so muh for your influence 


> NO, its just Pakistanis get butthurt when ever something good comes up about India. Its understandable, you people don't have influence even in your own country forget outside it. Either Slaves of America or China..lol some of your butthurt conspiracy theorists were even claiming we hold influence in U.S



So we are BUTThurt ? Over good news that india got insulted and embarassed by UNSC ?

Go shovel shit somewhere else Sukdeep ... You inferiority complex riddled coolie.

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## Star Wars

lol, so many smilies...Don't make your butthurt soo obvious 


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> whay influence? Did you support vietnam in any way,??
> They were supplied weapons by China and USSR... Nobody gave a Fuk about india..



NAM was extremely influential organization in the cold war, now if you know the non Madrassa history of NAM you would know people actually did give a **** about india. Unlike Pakistan which has become a political and economical joke.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> a civil war with 75 million support thsts your fukin achievement?
> We raped you for 1000 years...



lol, living in delusions are you....your country got torn apart because of India thats the truth, as for 1000 years, is that the Madrassa education ?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> all indian sources and from current SL PM.. What was happening when the war was being fought? you were playing your dirty domestic politics... Where your govts supported ltte... Let me tag SL Members @Gibbs. @Azizam



Indian Sources ? ..now that i have given you actual evidence you go back to your mindless insults 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> influence my arse... You are already packing your bag ... No "mining contracts".. No land route ... Not involved in any strategic decisions or confrence a negotiations .. And a lot of butthurt .. Your papers and media is crying day and out..



Are you that oblivious to what is going on ? you think India is helping Afghanistan for the heck of it ? There is a link between Chabbar portin Iran, Afganistan and other Central Asian countries...



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Your so called hospital has been in Tajikistan since 90s yet no a since fuk was given..



Is that relevant ? Point is we are operating bases away from our borders and you seem to be in a butthurt about it



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> We train all ME,Central Asians,Ethiopians,Sudan,Nigeria,Niger,Zambia,Chad,Nepal,Sri Lanka and even bangladesh.. And myanmar .. Even Indinesians,Malay etc who also use our weapons



And so does India, whats your point 
.


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Let the Sri Lankans decide who the Fuk are you ? The chai Wala



What does this have to do with my retort ? butthurt much ?  Besides a Chai wala is miles ahead of terrorists shooting up schools and markets..



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Lol .. We literally own Afghanistan,, and don't you complain how we cross into your ou try and beheadand kill your troops (your claims)..



You can't even manage Pakistan and your dreaming of owning Afghanistan  First fix your country. Did you forget how 100s of your soldiers surrendered to a handful of Terrorists and your elite supa dupa army got humiliated...



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> P.S: your NH touted operation was done on your on border with Myanmar or at max just a Hirt distance within the myanmar territory (myanmar the vessel state of China) so muh for your influence



Learn to read English, we can go into Myanmar hit anything and comeback. Myanmar specifically allows that..



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So we are BUTThurt ? Over good news that india got insulted and embarassed by UNSC ?
> Go shovel shit somewhere else* Sukdeep ... *You inferiority complex riddled coolie.



you might fall so low as to throw out personal insults, but i won't 

Lol,...A perceptual slave nation talking about India. Fact is we are growing considerably and are miles ahead of Pakistan in every field except terrorism... Your personal mental masturbation is irrelevant


----------



## Luca1

badguy2000 said:


> 1.USA doesn't allow CHina to have more votes of IMF and World bank, China just set up AIIB and Silk Road FUND to marginalize WB and IMF.
> And now, WB/IMF are more eager to give CHinese more Vetos than China itself ,Otherwise, bouth would be replaced by AIIB/Silk Road FUnd sooner or later and got diabled like "the league of Nation".
> 
> 2.if India were able to set up a Parallel or alternative of UN ,just as CHina does with WB/IMF, India would be offered a Veto of UN .
> 
> Thus, India had better spend its energy and money on developing its economy, instead of wasting money/time appealing Veto of UN now before its might deseves a veto.



Totally agree. India can only demand a UNSC veto power. It cannot beg for one. And India is still way too weak to demand one. India will be laughed out the door if it threaten to quit UN.



Star Wars said:


> UN has failed completely in its job of maintaining peace, especially when the member countries themselves are responsible for starting numerous wars... The Veto system is rather stupid and a rather convenient loophole...



And the grapes are sour...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Star Wars said:


> lol, so many smilies...Don't make your butthurt soo obvious


says the moron..




> NAM was extremely influential organization in the cold war, now if you know the non Madrassa history of NAM you would know people actually did give a **** about india.


So what was your rule in helping vietnam fight USA? verbal blowjob at best?

Pak was actually requested by US to fight in Vietnam but we didn't... Apart from that Vietnam had been buying weapons from Pak in the past..




> Unlike Pakistan which has become a political and economical joke.



whatever gets you an orgasm..




> lol, living in delusions are you....your country got torn apart because of India thats the truth, as for 1000 years, is that the Madrassa education ?


How do you tear apart a country where a small part or an overseas territory has already been asking for succession? Devdasi (temple prostitite) logic ?



> Indian Sources ? ..now that i have given you actual evidence you go back to your mindless insults


reality hurts right? You were sucking upto your Tamil Nadu terrorists .. Banning weapons and military support to Sri Lanka..apart from passing resolutions against SL which were blocked by Pak & China... Want sources? At the same time Pak was supplying weapon shipments every week,military advisors and "Pilots" who bombed your tamil terrorist brethren...




> Are you that oblivious to what is going on ? you think India is helping Afghanistan for the heck of it ? There is a link between Chabbar portin Iran, Afganistan and other Central Asian countries...



lmao... Clown Chahbahar is an iranian port you are only developing it for IRAN... They can pretty much dismiss your *** whenever they want... Before that you were (and still are) begging Pak for route to Kabul.., 

You were sidelined from all Afghan summits .. No mining contracts .., nothing ... Now you are bitchin on your media... Want source of your crying?
India ignored as Pak. takes charge of Afghan-Taliban talks: The Hindu - Mobile edition
More arse burn..



> Is that relevant ? Point is we are operating bases away from our borders and you seem to be in a butthurt about i


So your sole point is that coz you have been operating a single wretched hospital in Tajikistan you have influence there?

BC .. Tajiks are trained by us... Our army is already there training them... They are using our ports for import ... And have already established road link to Pak... Meanwhile rail link is also to be developed .. Not to forget CPEC will also connect them..



> And so does India, whats your point


No kiddo.,, it don't... Just cuz you train a few african countries doesn't mean shit,.



> What does this have to do with my retort ? butthurt much ?  Besides a Chai wala is miles ahead of terrorists shooting up schools and markets..


Maybe the chai Wala can make toilets top.. So that 700 million piss poor indians don't die of disease and starvation?



> You can't even manage Pakistan and your dreaming of owning Afghanistan  First fix your country. Did you forget how 100s of your soldiers surrendered to a handful of Terrorists and your elite supa dupa army got humiliated...


That's not what your mommy said,,, no matter how much you moan reality won't change..so keep bitchin..




> Learn to read English, we can go into Myanmar hit anything and comeback. Myanmar specifically allows that..


How can u learn English? How can I ever compete with appu the dot head with the "phunny" Anglash .. I always get "jero" in Anglash..


As for myanmar .. Lmao.. So you have influence on myanmar coz you killed a few indian guys 500 meters inside myanmar (a pisspoor country - living off Chinese handouts and a laughable military).. Sounds credible..




> you might fall so low as to throw out personal insults, but i won't
> 
> Lol,...A perceptual slave nation talking about India. Fact is we are growing considerably and are miles ahead of Pakistan in every field except terrorism... Your personal mental masturbation is irrelevant



So we are a slave nation that supports taliban fighting USA.. And they still consider us friends and give us weapons etc?
I mean Fuk off coolie... Go take a dump in LOC and you get beheaded ... But hey you can always point at "slaves" and do a headless bollywood dance like a good US cheerleader..

Go piss off sukdeep.its time beg US,China and Russia again ...

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## xunzi

Our Indian friends need to stop getting butthurt over fail attempt to beg for UNSC seat. It is all business and don't' hold grudge over it. You have to earn it. Ask yourself if you earn the right or not first.

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## JOEY TRIBIANI

Lolx another begging for seat failed.

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## Keel

UNSC 5 perm members' common qualties:

1. Alliance during WW2 to combat against the facists: imperial Japan and Nazi Germany's invasions
2. independently make their own advanced fighter jets
3. capable of making nuke submarines
4. capable of making fighter jet engines
5. net weapon exporters
6. within top 10 economies by nominal gdp (Japan being the number 3 biggest economy)
7. jointly or independently launched their satellite navigation systems
8. top medal contenders in Olympics and other global sports events
9. hosted at least once Olympics and all participating in summer, winter and aquatic sports actively
10. having top ranking global institution(s) of higher learnings (within top 200 according to QS and Time evaluations)
11. leading countries in scientific publications ( within top 15 countries per SJR SCImago Journal and country ranking)
12. having numerous orchestral sized (50 to over 100 muscians) musical groups or dancing organizations, numerous opera houses and music halls across country for performing arts of international standards
13. having well constructed infrastructures which meet basic facilities like running water, sanitation and electricity
14. efficient and safe transportation systems nationwide
15. high literacy rate
16. low infant mortality rate

--- what else?

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> View attachment 246287
> View attachment 246288
> View attachment 246289
> View attachment 246288
> View attachment 246287
> View attachment 246288
> View attachment 246289



Clearly proves Indians' English writing ability. I presume their speaking ability is even funnier.

At the end of the day, US just sided with Russia and China by putting India in its rightful place.

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## Star Wars

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> says the moron..











DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How do you tear apart a country where a small part or an overseas territory has already been asking for succession? *Devdasi* (temple prostitite) logic ?



You talking about the 90000 POW ? Or the little boys which your mullahs like so much.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> reality hurts right? You were sucking upto your Tamil Nadu terrorists .. Banning weapons and military support to Sri Lanka..apart from passing resolutions against SL which were blocked by Pak & China... Want sources? At the same time Pak was supplying weapon shipments every week,military advisors and "Pilots" who bombed your tamil terrorist brethren...



Not really, am actually entertained by the Verbal Diarrhea coming from you. Fact is , we helped grow LTTE and we helped destroy it unlike the monsters you grew in your backyard and are busy swallowing you whole.Without Help and cooperation from India, LTTE would be still be in Sri Lanka. Yeah and give your sources...



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> lmao... Clown Chahbahar is an iranian port you are only developing it for IRAN... They can pretty much dismiss your *** whenever they want... Before that you were (and still are) begging Pak for route to Kabul..,
> 
> You were sidelined from all Afghan summits .. No mining contracts .., nothing ... Now you are bitchin on your media... Want source of your crying?
> India ignored as Pak. takes charge of Afghan-Taliban talks: The Hindu - Mobile edition
> More arse burn..



You indeed are completely clueless, Chabbar port will be used to ship energy supplies from central asia, there is a reason India is funding Infrastructure in Afghanistan. Ofcourse, only you can handle Taliban, its your pet child..
As for what the Afgans think of you, go ask them 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So your sole point is that coz you have been operating a single wretched hospital in Tajikistan you have influence there?



India has spent 70$million on refurbishing that Airbase, currently it houses Mi-17 Helicopters to assist in reconstruction effort in Afganistan. Learn to do some reading before hitting that reply button. It saves repeated Embarrassment 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> BC .. Tajiks are trained by us... Our army is already there training them... They are using our ports for import ... And have already established road link to Pak... Meanwhile rail link is also to be developed .. Not to forget CPEC will also connect them..



Tajiks are trained by a whole host of countries, including India, nothing to brag about. We,ll see how long they use your port once the Infrastructure and work around Chabbar gets finished..lol CPEC...what happened to the money Chinese promised you to give in 2010 ? 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> No kiddo.,, it don't... Just cuz you train a few african countries doesn't mean shit,.



then stop bragging about pak army here 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Maybe the chai Wala can make toilets top.. So that 700 million piss poor indians don't die of disease and starvation?



Still better than Mullahsaurus and the Taliban cunts you have been raising, and you talk like your people are any better off. Go outside and see your own country. Spending to much time in your mothers basement is bad 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> How can u learn English? How can I ever compete with appu the dot head with the "phunny" Anglash .. I always get "jero" in Anglash..



Is that Madrassa education ?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> As for myanmar .. Lmao.. So you have influence on myanmar coz you killed a few indian guys 500 meters inside myanmar (a pisspoor country - living off Chinese handouts and a laughable military).. Sounds credible..



lol..we had influence on Myanmar since the 90s...this is nothing new..



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> So we are a slave nation that supports taliban fighting USA.. And they still consider us friends and give us weapons etc?
> I mean Fuk off coolie... Go take a dump in LOC and you get beheaded ... But hey you can always point at "slaves" and do a headless bollywood dance like a good US cheerleader..
> 
> Go piss off sukdeep.its time beg US,China and Russia again ...



You are a slave nation, either slave of US or slave of Saudi or slave of China either way your country lacks independence, strong leadership. A country without any cultural identity and country who has made Heroes of those people who raped their Ancestors and brags about it  That is the truth..


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## Star Wars

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 246405
> 
> 
> Now stop bitchin or I may come with my blade and make you my beetch like my great ancestors ... I still have a 500 year old sword of my Ancestor!
> 
> You big mouth c... are so passive in your real life... Yet a big mouth hiding behind a screen knowing that you are secure...




What happened, lose your nerve to reply and now going back to personal insult ? : 
Unlike you i was brought up in a good family and i will still avoid personal insults...


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## danger007

Star Wars said:


> What happened, lose your nerve to reply and now going back to personal insult ? :
> Unlike you i was brought up in a good family and i will still avoid personal insults...




Are you expecting proper reply from them??? lol they are more interested in personal attacks... they are the one who troll mostly, and who spit insults and personal attack ... even though they think, they are pure ones from lala land.. lolz ...

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## OrionHunter

What's the fukin' big deal dying for a permanent seat in the UNSC? It's a totally useless organization, a relic from the past! No one cares a hoot. It's as impotent and useless as a corpse in a harem. 

I think India should stop making a fool of itself by crying hoarse to get into this worthless club of ineffective entities.


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## mike2000 is back

OrionHunter said:


> What's the fukin' big deal dying for a permanent seat in the UNSC? It's a totally useless organization, a relic from the past! No one cares a hoot. It's as impotent and useless as a corpse in a harem.
> 
> I think India should stop making a fool of itself by crying hoarse to get into this worthless club of ineffective entities.



Its not really useless bros.if it was then your leaders wont be trying so hard to join the high chairs of P5. Or do you think your leaders are foolish/dumb? I dont think so. They know mors about world politics than you common people. So they know the use/value of a UNSC permanent seat.


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## Guynextdoor2

mike2000 is back said:


> Its not really useless bros.if it was then your leaders wont be trying so hard to join the high chairs of P5. Or do you think your leaders are foolish/dumb? I dont think so. They knkw mors about pilitics than you common people. So they know the use/value of UNSC permanent seat.



a chicken-shit power like UK doesn't deserve the UNSC seat. You have trolled the world the last time. We will boot you out, but before we do that we will insult you and abuse you in ways that leave you in no doubt what your true status is.


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## mike2000 is back

Guynextdoor2 said:


> a chicken-shit power like UK doesn't deserve the UNSC seat. You have trolled the world the last time. We will boot you out, but before we do that we will insult you and abuse you in ways that leave you in no doubt what your true status is.



Lool you are funny mate.


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## Guynextdoor2

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool you are funny mate.



In the end will make your country our ping pong court and turn your PM into our Ball Boy.


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## badguy2000

Mr.Nair said:


> What do u expect from illiterate chinese
> 
> *India share of the world economy when Britain arrived on it’s shores was 23 per cent, by the time the British left it was down to below 4 per cent.*
> 
> Watch Shashi Tharoor's Stirring Speech On Why Britain Must Compensate India For Its Colonial Rule
> 
> @Hypersonicmissiles
> 
> 
> 
> When japanese invaded your country, is your country becomes prosperous? Oh they invaded you country to make china prosperous


1.it is because India\China \muslim world were left behind industrialzation ,instead of "west invasion",that they became poorer and backward .

2.West invasion was just the by-products caused by the case that they were left by industrilzation tide.

3.if China/India had caught up with the industry tide as Japan did, they would had invaded and colonized Africa ,then launched WW aganist west world,as Japan did.

4. well ,CHina finally has managed to grasp of the last chance of industrialzation and industrializing itself rapidly..
that is why CHina now can challenge USA.
however, India was misled by west guys to give up manufacturing ,and seems to have missed the last chance of industrilzaiton again.

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## Mr.Nair

badguy2000 said:


> 1.it is because India\China \muslim world were left behind industrialzation ,instead of "west invasion",that they became poorer and backward .
> 
> 2.West invasion was just the by-products caused by the case that they were left by industrilzation tide.
> 
> 3.if China/India had caught up with the industry tide as Japan did, they would had invaded and colonized Africa ,then launched WW aganist west world,as Japan did.
> 
> 4. well ,CHina finally has managed to grasp of the last chance of industrialzation and industrializing itself rapidly..
> that is why CHina now can challenge USA.
> however, India was misled by west guys to give up manufacturing ,and seems to have missed the last chance of industrilzaiton again.



There is nothing called last industrialization, it keep on changing and china grasp the opportunity only because it is cheaper compared to west, neither china do not have might to challenge US even now as US is the biggest trading partner of China.India more concentrated on service sector than manufacturing and you forgot that india still a fastest growing economy at about 7.4% with 2.3 trillion dollar with out manufacturing sector like china.


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## TaiShang

India does not deserve to be a UNSC member. Period. It is not just China's opinion. Entire P5 thinks like that.

Why single out China? You are both in the AIIB and soon in the SCO.

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## mike2000 is back

Guynextdoor2 said:


> In the end will make your country our ping pong court and turn your PM into our Ball Boy.


You are really funny man.


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## Mr.Nair

TaiShang said:


> India does not deserve to be a UNSC member. Period. It is not just China's opinion. Entire P5 thinks like that.
> 
> Why single out China? You are both in AIIB and soon in SCO.



I think china decided to drop UNSC perm member as they are member of both SCO and AIIB !


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## TaiShang

Mr.Nair said:


> I think china decided to drop UNSC perm member as they are member of both SCO and AIIB !



No way. The UNSC is still the single most important institution. Good thing is, the UNSC works best when it is dysfunctional.

And right now it is pretty much dysfunctional because there is a clear 3 to 2 split.

India, at least, is not without options. There are alternatives, albeit smaller.

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## mike2000 is back

badguy2000 said:


> 1.it is because India\China \muslim world were left behind industrialzation ,instead of "west invasion",that they became poorer and backward .
> 
> 2.West invasion was just the by-products caused by the case that they were left by industrilzation tide.
> 
> 3.if China/India had caught up with the industry tide as Japan did, they would had invaded and colonized Africa ,then launched WW aganist west world,as Japan did.
> 
> 4. well ,CHina finally has managed to grasp of the last chance of industrialzation and industrializing itself rapidly..
> that is why CHina now can challenge USA.
> however, India was misled by west guys to give up manufacturing ,and seems to have missed the last chance of industrilzaiton again.



You said if China and India had followed our lead and industrilised(never mond that India was our colony and so had no say in how we ruled them, at least they have an excuse, but china has no excuse as it was indepenedent and self ruled.lol) then China/India would have invaded amd colonise (never mind that China colonised vietnam regardless.lol)other countries overseas as well.? 

Hmmmm....i thought according to chinese and indian members here that they are the moat holiest and most peaceful country that ever existed on planet earth? So you mean you are now humble and 'peaceful' simply because you didnt have our capabilities back then? Lol. 

Well, at least you are honest unlike some of your other brothers here who always blame everything on the 'evil imperialistic' west. So we are both on the same page.


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## badguy2000

Mr.Nair said:


> There is nothing called last industrialization, it keep on changing and china grasp the opportunity only because it is cheaper compared to west, neither china do not have might to challenge US even now as US is the biggest trading partner of China.India more concentrated on service sector than manufacturing and you forgot that india still a fastest growing economy at about 7.4% with 2.3 trillion dollar with out manufacturing sector like china.


1. if only cheaper labour were enough to grasp industriazation,, Black Africa would have been the world workshop long ago. Neither CHina nor Japan would have chance to start industrilzaiton at all.

2. sevice sectors like hair-cut/calling center/law/mecial-care/rent can not make one country mighty
only massive massive manufacturing/farming/mining/construction can arm one country and make it mighty.
3. USA/EU/China/Russia are the 4 which have largest manufacturing/farming/mining/construction sectors on the earth, so they can indpendently arm themselves and sustain a prolong war .
The big 4 are the real players of world politcal games.
the others ,including India, can not arm themselves and would have to depend on resupply from big 4. othewise, their weapons stocks would wear out at most after 6-month war.

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## TaiShang

badguy2000 said:


> only massive massive manufacturing/farming/mining/construction can arm one country and make it mighty.



But Indians hate it. That's why their country is so clean and pristine while ours sucks.

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## badguy2000

mike2000 is back said:


> You said if China and India had followed our lead and industrilised(never mond that India was our colony and so had no say in how we ruled them, at least they have an excuse, but china has no excuse as it was indepenedent and self ruled.lol) then China/India would have invaded amd colonise (never mind that China colonised vietnam regardless.lol)other countries overseas as well.?
> 
> Hmmmm....i thought according to chinese and indian members here that they are the moat holiest and most peaceful country that ever existed on planet earth? So you mean you are now humble and 'peaceful' simply because you didnt have our capabilities back then? Lol.
> 
> Well, at least you are honest unlike some of your other brothers here who always blame everything on the 'evil imperialistic' west. So we are both on the same page.



well, historically speaking, states are usually immoral.
it is usually because they didn't have to chance to do wrongs.if they didn't do wrongs.

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## Mr.Nair

badguy2000 said:


> 1. if only cheaper labour were enough to grasp industriazation,, Black Africa would have been the world workshop long ago. Neither CHina nor Japan would have chance to start industrilzaiton at all.
> 
> 2. sevice sectors like hair-cut/calling center/law/mecial-care/rent can not make one country mighty
> only massive massive manufacturing/farming/mining/construction can arm one country and make it mighty.



massive massive manufacturing sector will create vulnerable for a countries economy as they are more export oriented.Africa is a continent and not a country and each country have its own set of rules and regulation buddy.

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## badguy2000

Mr.Nair said:


> massive massive manufacturing sector will create vulnerable for a countries economy as they are more export oriented.Africa is a continent and not a country and each country have its own set of rules and regulation buddy.



massive manufacturing sectors give its workers salary, then increase domestic demands ,enlarged domestic demands then stimulates services and creates more service jobs.
that is exactly what happens to CHina.

without massive manufacturing, the whole country is uaually full of people want to serve others but can not find clients.that is what happens to India.

Now, CHinese bought 10 times more autos,AC,PC and almost all industry products than Indians.

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## mike2000 is back

badguy2000 said:


> well, historically speaking, states are usually immoral.
> it is usually because they didn't have to chance to do wrongs.if they didn't do wrongs.



Tell that to your holier than thou brothers on here.


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## Jlaw

@badguy2000, why do you keep trying to convince them? You tried that in Bharat forum and got shat on.

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## Mr.Nair

badguy2000 said:


> massive manufacturing sectors create demands ,demands stimulate services and create service jobs.
> 
> without massive manufacturing, the whole country is uaually full of people want to serve others but can not find clients.
> that is what happens to India.



Buddy don't worry too much about india, india know how to grow and what way to grow.You are telling as if india do not have manufacturing sector ! India is having 1.25 billion people and country people itself is a big client buddy as of local consumption


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## Jlaw

Mr.Nair said:


> Buddy don't worry too much about india, india know how to grow and what way to grow.You are telling as if india do not have manufacturing sector ! India is having 1.25 billion people and country people itself is a big client buddy as of local consumption


he might be indian?


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## Chinese-Dragon

The only way to change the "5 power" system, is to set up an alternative organization to the UN and get everyone else to join it.

Like China did with the AIIB.

Except if India tried to set up some Indian version of the United Nations, no one would actually leave the United Nations to join it.

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## Jlaw

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Except if India tried to set up some Indian version of the United Nations, no one would actually leave the United Nations to join it.


True. That is why I think India should split up into different kingdoms like pre-1947. This way if they decide to form another UN some kingdoms will join them, given the Indian UN" some credibility.

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## soundwave1987

How to acquire UNSC Permanent Membership:

Mission: Ocean weeps
Level: Inferno
Requirement: Defeat U.S Navy & Airforce in Pacific/Indian/Atlantic Ocean, Wipe out U.S Bases
Awards: Maritime Supremacy, Advanced R&D, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power

Mission: Winter is Coming
Level: Inferno
Requirement: Defeat Russian Federal Army & Airforce, Occupy Moscow
Awards: Natural Resources, Vast Territory, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power

Mission: Break the Great Wall
Level: Inferno
Requirement: Defeat PLA Army & Airfoce, Camp Alongside Yellow River/Yangtze River
Awards: Mass-Production, Industrialised Population, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power

Mission: God Forsake the Queen
Level: Inferno
Requirement: Defeat Royal Navy & Airforce, Invade British Isles
Awards: Financial Hegemony, Strategy Mastery, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power

Mission: Fall of Arc de Triomphe
Level: Inferno
Requirement: Defeat French Army & Airforce , Annihilate French Foreign Legion, Conquer France
Awards: Thriving Culture, Oversea Influence, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power

Massion: All Fall Before Me
Level: Armageddon
Requirement: Annihilate All Military Strength of the P5 members
Awards: World Domination, UNSC Monopoly, Access of Next Stage--Interstellar Voyager

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## Keel

Jlaw said:


> True. That is why I think India should split up into different kingdoms like pre-1947. This way if they decide to form another UN some kingdoms will join them, given the Indian UN" some credibility.



But it will be "india clone 1 + india clone 2 + 3, 4 .." supporting a "commonwealth" India so to speak
There will not be any impact outside of the hole

It is more difficult to establish a version 2 of UN by the Indians. It actually doesnt have any political clout other than (1) using its procurement as baits to lure the big fishes in the pond; like the Rafale deal which is virtually dead now (2) playing the "China Threat" card

UN is not just UNSC but it is a complex org which comprises of many important agencies like WHO, UNESCO, PeaceCorp ... serving the world

India simply does not have the resources to do what UN is doing now. No single country in the world can

AIIB's set up is a lot easier by comparison









soundwave1987 said:


> How to acquire UNSC Permanent Membership:
> 
> Mission: Ocean weeps
> Level: Inferno
> Requirement: Defeat U.S Navy & Airforce in Pacific/Indian/Atlantic Ocean, Wipe out U.S Bases
> Awards: Maritime Supremacy, Advanced R&D, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power
> 
> Mission: Winter is Coming
> Level: Inferno
> Requirement: Defeat Russian Federal Army & Airforce, Occupy Moscow
> Awards: Natural Resources, Vast Territory, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power
> 
> Mission: Break the Great Wall
> Level: Inferno
> Requirement: Defeat PLA Army & Airfoce, Camp Alongside Yellow River/Yangtze River
> Awards: Mass-Production, Industrialised Population, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power
> 
> Mission: God Forsake the Queen
> Level: Inferno
> Requirement: Defeat Royal Navy & Airforce, Invade British Isles
> Awards: Financial Hegemony, Strategy Mastery, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power
> 
> Mission: Fall of Arc de Triomphe
> Level: Inferno
> Requirement: Defeat French Army & Airforce , Annihilate French Foreign Legion, Conquer France
> Awards: Thriving Culture, Oversea Influence, Nuclear Arsenal, UNSC Permanent Membership with Veto Power
> 
> Massion: All Fall Before Me
> Level: Armageddon
> Requirement: Annihilate All Military Strength of the P5 members
> Awards: World Domination, UNSC Monopoly, Access of Next Stage--Interstellar Voyager



Are these plots for the next video games?

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## TaiShang

*Most beautiful high-speed rail to start operation at the China-Russia-DPRK border*

The railway starts from Jilin, and the destination is Hunchun, a city on China-Russia border, with a total length of 360.976 kilometers, and designed speed of 250 km per hour.

The rail line will pass several tourist sites including the Songhua Lake, the Changbai Mountain, and the Jiaohe Red Valley. Therefore it is also known as the "most beautiful high-speed rail" in northeast China.

Most beautiful high-speed rail to start operation at the China-Russia-DPRK border - People's Daily Online









The railway starts from Jilin, and the destination is Hunchun, a city on China-Russia border, with a total length of 360.976 kilometers, and designed speed of 250 km per hour.

The rail line will pass several tourist sites including the Songhua Lake, the Changbai Mountain, and the Jiaohe Red Valley. Therefore it is also known as the "most beautiful high-speed rail" in northeast China. 















@cirr

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## Umair Nawaz

so where DPRK comes in?


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## cirr

TaiShang said:


> *Most beautiful high-speed rail to start operation at the China-Russia-DPRK border*
> 
> The railway starts from Jilin, and the destination is Hunchun, a city on China-Russia border, with a total length of 360.976 kilometers, and designed speed of 250 km per hour.
> 
> The rail line will pass several tourist sites including the Songhua Lake, the Changbai Mountain, and the Jiaohe Red Valley. Therefore it is also known as the "most beautiful high-speed rail" in northeast China.
> 
> Most beautiful high-speed rail to start operation at the China-Russia-DPRK border - People's Daily Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The railway starts from Jilin, and the destination is Hunchun, a city on China-Russia border, with a total length of 360.976 kilometers, and designed speed of 250 km per hour.
> 
> The rail line will pass several tourist sites including the Songhua Lake, the Changbai Mountain, and the Jiaohe Red Valley. Therefore it is also known as the "most beautiful high-speed rail" in northeast China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @cirr



The rail starts from Changchun, capital of northeast China's Jilin Province.........

The Changchun-Jilin section of the HSR was put into operation several years ago.

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## opruh

Hoping that one day, Chinese HSR can extend all the way to Russia in the north, and to mainland Southeast Asia in the south. It will be such an adventure to travel by HSR from Singapore to China to Moscow, it's one of my dreams.

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## cirr

Umair Nawaz said:


> so where DPRK comes in?



The DPPK is more likely to come in at Dandong, another Chinese town bordering the reclusive country。

If the DPPK can be talked into building a HSR along its west coast，the journey between Beijing and Seoul，via Pyongyang，can be covered in 4 hours。



opruh said:


> Hoping that one day, Chinese HSR can extend all the way to Russia in the north, and to mainland Southeast Asia in the south. It will be such an adventure to travel by HSR from Singapore to China to Moscow, it's one of my dreams.



Your dream shall be realized one way or another at a not-2-distant date。

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## Umair Nawaz

cirr said:


> The DPPK is more likely to come in at Dandong, another Chinese town bordering the reclusive country。
> 
> If the DPPK can be talked into building a HSR along its west coast，the journey between Beijing and Seoul，via Pyongyang，can be covered in 4 hours。
> 
> 
> 
> Your dream shall be realized one way or another at a not-2-distant date。


but it wont happen.


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## TaiShang

opruh said:


> Hoping that one day, Chinese HSR can extend all the way to Russia in the north, and to mainland Southeast Asia in the south. It will be such an adventure to travel by HSR from Singapore to China to Moscow, it's one of my dreams.



That will surely happen, brother. 

Pieces are put together as we speak.

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## TaiShang

An alternative UN? Let's aim a bit short here. 

If India launched its own AIIB, would anyone join?

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## LowPost

opruh said:


> Hoping that one day, Chinese HSR can extend all the way to Russia in the north, and to mainland Southeast Asia in the south. It will be such an adventure to travel by HSR from Singapore to China to Moscow, it's one of my dreams.



Great for both tourists and businessmen, so this is a good reason for airline bosses to be afraid.  What would the construction and maintenance costs look like, though?


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## TaiShang

*Russia, China Mastering the Art of Countering 'Washington-Led Fifth Column' / Sputnik International*

*It has taken Russia and China some time, but in two decades they have learned how to counter "Washington's fifth column," an array of NGOs the US supports to destabilize Moscow and Beijing and force them to accept America's hegemony, a French media outlet reported.*

Washington's fifth column is sponsored by the US State Department and a multitude of private American organizations. It has been quite successful in some countries: it instigated color revolutions in Georgia and Ukraine, Boulevard Voltaire noted.

Washington’s Fifth Columns Inside Russia and China

*Russians, according to the media outlet, are largely immune to the efforts of these organizations and the lies they spread*. Some 89 percent of Russian citizens support President Vladimir Putin and his policies.

*"The remaining 11 percent are primarily those who believe that Putin is not too tough in his response to the Western aggression.* This minority also supports the Russian leader," Hildegard von Hessen am Rhein noted, adding that after all their work, Washington only managed to win over no more than 2 – 3 percent of Russians.

The United States has also been actively engaged in China, for instance through the Rockefeller Foundation supporting some pro-American professors in the universities, Boulevard Voltaire pointed out.

Nevertheless, both Russia and China see US activities aimed at supporting the fifth column for what they are and have started to protect themselves. "From now on the United States will have to be more humble and to forget about hypocrisy," the article stated.

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## Sasquatch

It would be naive not to use the UNSC entry as leverage for the border dispute with India and other issues, long term China won't support it. Excellent move.

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## Armstrong

Hu Songshan said:


> It would be naive not to use the UNSC entry as leverage for the border dispute with India and other issues, long term China won't support it. Excellent move.



What ? 

I thought we were brothers ! 

Jokes aside; thats not a bad idea...fits perfectly with real politick !


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## Economic superpower

Armstrong said:


> What ?
> 
> I thought we were brothers !
> 
> Jokes aside; thats not a bad idea...fits perfectly with real politick !



India will never be included in UNSC.

China will make sure of it.

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## Zarvan

Published time: 16 Aug, 2015 13:02
Get short URL





Major amphibious assault ship takes part in the Russian-Chinese "Joint Sea-2015" drills in the Mediterranean. / RIA Novosti
READ MORE: ‘Not aimed at third country’: Russia & China start joint drills at Mediterranean





Chinese missile frigate Linyi during the opening of the Russian-Chinese naval exercise Naval Interaction–2015. © Yulia Kaminskaya / RIA Novosti

International naval drills by the Russian and Chinese navies will be conducted in the Sea of Japan next week. Sailors, marines and naval air pilots of the two countries will be training together in combined operations in an amphibious assault exercise.
A Chinese squadron has left the port of Qingdao in Shandong province on Saturday and headed for Russia’s Vladivostok to take part in the bilateral naval exercise to be held in Peter the Great Bay on August 20-28.

A source close to the operation told Xinhua news agency that the drills _"are not targeted at any third party and are not relevant to the regional status quo,"_ stressing that the exercise is part of annual exchange program between Chinese and Russian militaries.

The Chinese task force coming to Vladivostok comprises seven warships, six shipborne helicopters, five warplanes, 21 amphibious vehicles and 200 marines. Russian Pacific Fleet will be represented with up to 20 battleships and support vessels, two submarines, 10 warplanes, nine amphibious vehicles and also 200 marines.





© Google Maps
Chinese warships are set to call at Vladivostok port next Thursday, August 20, Xinhua reports. While paying visit to Vladivostok’s harbor, Chinese ships are expected to be opened for civilian visitors.

Russian and Chinese troops, aircraft and vessels will be operating in five combined naval groups and four Air Force groups in Russian territorial waters and in neutral waters of the Sea of Japan.

The Sea of Japan borders four countries Japan, North Korea, South Korea and Russia. So far, the Chinese Navy has not taken part in exercises in this area.

The main declared task of the drills will be practicing protection of naval communications, anti-submarine training, air defense exercise and anti-ship actions.

For the first time ever the naval exercise will include a joint amphibious assault drill.

Naval training of Russian Pacific Fleet and the Navy of the People’s Liberation Army of China is named Joint Sea-2015(II) and will be held off the coast of Primorsky Krai in Russia’s Pacific region, some 650 kilometers from the coast of Japan.

The first, smaller part, of the Joint Sea exercise took place in the Mediterranean on May 11-21 this year.

Meanwhile, Moscow has agreed to take part in naval military exercises together with its Asia Pacific allies in the disputed South China Sea next May.

*READ MORE: Russia will take part in multinational navy drills in disputed South China Sea*

_

“We are strongly in favor for any dispute in South China Sea, in East China Sea, in any sea for that matter, to be resolved on the basis of the international law, including, first of all, the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention, on the basis of the declaration signed between China and ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations],”_ Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in an interview to Singapore’s Channel News Asia, in early August.

_“On this basis the countries directly involved in any dispute should find mutually acceptable solution without any outside interference,”_ Lavrov added.
Russia and China to stage naval drills in Sea of Japan, train for beach landing — RT News

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## Viet

you are welcome to dump the dollar if you want. let see who will suffer most. I place my bet it is not the US. the debt is to pay back in dollar. and in case you don´t know the US central bank can create billions of dollar out of thin air.

second, you may study more facts than spew nonsense. bretton woods as we know it is long dead. the central element of bretton woods system is gold, or more precise the gold reserves hoarded in the US and 43 other signatory countries. $35 per ounce of gold. No, not your brics bank or other chinese propaganda, it was the unsustainable cost of the Vietnam war that crashed the dollar and ended the system. since then what we see it is just a mix of fixed and flexibel peg of all world currencies against the dollar. the yuan included.

Nixon and the End of the Bretton Woods System, 1971–1973 - 1969–1976 - Milestones - Office of the Historian

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## Economic superpower

Viet said:


> you are welcome to dump the dollar if you want. let see who will suffer most. I place my bet it is not the US. the debt is to pay back in dollar. and in case you don´t know the US central bank can create billions of dollar out of thin air.
> 
> second, you may study more facts than spew nonsense. bretton woods as we know it is long dead. the central element of bretton woods system is gold, or more precise the gold reserves hoarded in the US and 43 other signatory countries. $35 per ounce of gold. No, not your brics bank or other chinese propaganda, it was the unsustainable cost of the Vietnam war that crashed the dollar and ended the system. since then what we see it is just a mix of fixed and flexibel peg of all world currencies against the dollar. the yuan included.
> 
> Nixon and the End of the Bretton Woods System, 1971–1973 - 1969–1976 - Milestones - Office of the Historian



Vietnam war crashed the dollar? 

Oh Vietnamese boy, you have been brainwashed by the VCP. 

If you actually believe the US won't lose if the dollar loses market share then you are an economic illiterate.

There is a reason the Fed can create trillions and have low inflation. Can you tell me why?

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## Indika

Viet said:


> you are welcome to dump the dollar if you want. let see who will suffer most. I place my bet it is not the US. the debt is to pay back in dollar. and in case you don´t know the US central bank can create billions of dollar out of thin air.
> 
> second, you may study more facts than spew nonsense. bretton woods as we know it is long dead. the central element of bretton woods system is gold, or more precise the gold reserves hoarded in the US and 43 other signatory countries. $35 per ounce of gold. No, not your brics bank or other chinese propaganda, it was the unsustainable cost of the Vietnam war that crashed the dollar and ended the system. since then what we see it is just a mix of fixed and flexibel peg of all world currencies against the dollar. the yuan included.
> 
> Nixon and the End of the Bretton Woods System, 1971–1973 - 1969–1976 - Milestones - Office of the Historian


Agreed.
OP fails to explain why china is holding american bonds and foreign reserves in dollar then. Fake it till you make it ?

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## vtnsx

Economic superpower said:


> Vietnam war crashed the dollar?
> 
> Oh Vietnamese boy, you have been brainwashed by the VCP.
> 
> If you actually believe the US won't lose if the dollar loses market share then you are an economic illiterate.
> 
> There is a reason the Fed can create trillions and have low inflation. Can you tell me why?



"There is a reason the Fed can create trillions and have low inflation. Can you tell me why?"

More US dollars being distributed worldwide. People are holding its debt around the world. By distributing the US dollars, it reduces inflation because paper money is now less for America. It's steroid for the US dollars. That being said, when people switched over another currency, it will devalue the US dollars. The paper money gets tossed back to the US and now they are holding more cash with little value.

Especially now with BRICS which has about 3 billion people. That is a significant number and can hurt the US badly once BRICS is matured.

I'm not an economic major, but I know the basic of cash flow.

Understanding money is like a revolution for a country. It is like an iPhone 6 plus to the old black and white flip phone of the past.

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## IR-TR

Beautiful. May this cut their military budget by 80%. They can't afford it. Only thing keeping it in place is the printing press, backed up by the world using Dollars.



Viet said:


> you are welcome to dump the dollar if you want. let see who will suffer most. I place my bet it is not the US. the debt is to pay back in dollar. and in case you don´t know the US central bank can create billions of dollar out of thin air.
> 
> second, you may study more facts than spew nonsense. bretton woods as we know it is long dead. the central element of bretton woods system is gold, or more precise the gold reserves hoarded in the US and 43 other signatory countries. $35 per ounce of gold. No, not your brics bank or other chinese propaganda, it was the unsustainable cost of the Vietnam war that crashed the dollar and ended the system. since then what we see it is just a mix of fixed and flexibel peg of all world currencies against the dollar. the yuan included.
> 
> Nixon and the End of the Bretton Woods System, 1971–1973 - 1969–1976 - Milestones - Office of the Historian



Bretton Woods is dead in theory, but in practice it was replaced by the Petrodollar, meaning that instead of the gold standard, the US dollar is backed by oil and other energy sale transactions. Guess what happens when that is gone.

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## NiceGuy

U cant defeat US in any kinds of war (hot-cold war) if u cant take down its Pacific allies first.... and JP-Aussia-NZ-TW still US's allies now , only South VN gone


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## IR-TR

eyeswideshut said:


> Agreed.
> OP fails to explain why china is holding american bonds and foreign reserves in dollar then. Fake it till you make it ?



There was no alternative. All those gigantic yearly trade surpluses had to be 'invested' somewhere.

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## TaiShang

He makes some interesting comments. Especially the end of his talk is of great importance.

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## xyxmt

eyeswideshut said:


> Agreed.
> OP fails to explain why china is holding american bonds and foreign reserves in dollar then. Fake it till you make it ?



maybe because China is not doing business with Russia alone. Will India accept Chinese currency?

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## Archie

Dollar is already too over valued
Dollar needs to fall by 20% for American Exports to become competitive vs Europe and china


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## Shotgunner51

@vostok @senheiser 

This is from English version of Pravda.ru, what are your views?

US desperate as Russia and China collapse Bretton Woods system - English pravda.ru

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## Viet

Economic superpower said:


> Vietnam war crashed the dollar?
> 
> Oh Vietnamese boy, you have been brainwashed by the VCP.
> 
> If you actually believe the US won't lose if the dollar loses market share then you are an economic illiterate.
> 
> There is a reason the Fed can create trillions and have low inflation. Can you tell me why?


Of course. or you don't know how the US financed the war efforts in Vietnam? They printed dollars day and night, making the currency more and more worthless. Until a certain breaking point was reached, when in 1971 the US central bank could not keep the promise: the peg 35 USD to a ounce of gold. Pls feel free and check how much an ounce costs right now. 

The US withdrew from VN because the cost became unsustainable, even for a economic and military superpower. That was the strategy of North Vietnam.

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## Viet

Shotgunner51 said:


> @vostok @senheiser
> 
> This is from English version of Pravda.ru, what are your views?
> 
> US desperate as Russia and China collapse Bretton Woods system - English pravda.ru


Yea call the russians and ask them. Despite your propaganda, in reality the bilateral sino-russia trade collapses this year by 30 per cent. The US can laugh at your collapse story.


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## NiceGuy

Viet said:


> Of course. or you don't know how the US financed the war efforts in Vietnam? They printed dollars day and night, making the currency more and more worthless. Until a certain breaking point was reached, when in 1971 the US central bank could not keep the promise: the peg 35 USD to a ounce of gold. Pls feel free and check how much an ounce costs right now.
> 
> The US withdrew from VN because the cost became unsustainable, even for a economic and military superpower. That was the strategy of North Vietnam.


Thats true. VN and its SCS(east VN sea) have a very important location, who control VN-SCS(east sea) can control the whole ASEAN plus shipping line of CN-SK-JP-Guam. 

US tried all ways including devaluation of dollar to stop the unification of VN , but failed and had to hand over S.VN- Spratly isls back to us .



> By the early 1960s, the U.S. dollar's fixed value against gold, under the Bretton Woods system of fixed exchange rates, was seen as overvalued. A sizable increase in domestic spending on President Lyndon Johnson's Great Society programs and *a rise in military spending caused by the Vietnam War gradually worsened the overvaluation of the dollar*.
> 
> *End of Bretton Woods system
> About the IMF: History: The end of the Bretton Woods System (1972–81)*


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## TaiShang

The navies of China and Russia hold joint drill in the Sea of Japan, Peter the Great Gulf, and in waters off Clerk Cape from August 20 to 28. 23 warships, two submarines, 15 aircraft, eight ship-borne helicopters, 400 marines and 30 amphibious equipments will join the nine-day drill.








沈阳舰官兵在做补给前准备。






沈阳舰与补给舰太湖舰同向并行。





引缆





拖带承重钢缆上舰。





加固钢缆





补给对接。 李秀林 摄





油水管滑向沈阳舰。

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## TaiShang

太湖舰同时为两艘战舰实施横纵向补给。





太湖舰同时为两艘战舰实施横纵向补给。 张鹏 摄





待机中的太湖舰。 李秀林 摄（资料图）





俯瞰干液货同时补给。 李秀林 摄（资料图






干液货同时补给。 李秀林 摄（资料图）





横向干液货同时补给。 李秀林 摄（资料图）





进行立体综合补给。 李秀林 摄（资料图）

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## BHAN85

Image links are broken, it seems that the CDN of the site doesnt allow external referers.

Here the original url to view the images: 在重大任务中历练成长—国防部网│军事图片│高清大图

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## anon45

ah yes, pravda... next source is presstv?

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## BHAN85

And Russia & Iran desperate as oil barrel prices collapse.

Dont forget that.

Russia and Iran are much more desperate than USA in order to triggering a big war and avoid economic collapse.

Likely the agression that it will escalate up to a big war will be caused by Iran.


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## Götterdämmerung

BHAN85 said:


> And Russia & Iran desperate as oil barrel prices collapse.
> 
> Dont forget that.
> 
> Russia and Iran are much more desperate than USA in order to triggering a big war and avoid economic collapse.
> 
> Likely the agression that it will escalate up to a big war will be caused by Iran.



I don't know in what parallel world you live in.

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## BHAN85

Götterdämmerung said:


> I don't know in what parallel world you live in.





Ask to your own government.

In that parallel world Germany Patriot antimissile in Turkey are "hacked" and a few weeks later German government announces Patriot withdrawal from Turkey in a few months.

And a few days later... Istanbul shooting: Two men detained after trying to storm German consulate in Dolmabahce Palace - reports | City A.M.

Yemen war started without warning, and the same will happen in the next ME war. Welcome to XXI century.

I think Germany government must be restlessness after Iran Deal and conversations between USA and Russia, like East-European countries after Molotov-Ribbentrop deal 75 years ago .


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## Götterdämmerung

BHAN85 said:


> Ask to your own government.
> 
> In that parallel world Germany Patriot antimissile in Turkey are "hacked" and a few weeks later German government announces Patriot withdrawal from Turkey in a few months.
> 
> And a few days later... Istanbul shooting: Two men detained after trying to storm German consulate in Dolmabahce Palace - reports | City A.M.
> 
> Yemen war started without warning, and the same will happen in the next ME war. Welcome to XXI century.
> 
> I think Germany government must be restlessness after Iran Deal and conversations between USA and Russia, like East-European countries after Molotov-Ribbentrop deal 75 years ago .



Oh, I see, the Spanish Gag Law is taking effect. Saying anything against NATO and the police will knock at your door.

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## TaiShang

*Russia, China Hold 'Unprecedented' Joint Naval Drills*

17:21 20.08.2015
 
*Thursday saw the beginning of the second phase of Sea Cooperation – 2015, a large-scale joint military exercise between Russia and China.*





Russian Navy to Conduct Artillery Drills in Pacific Ocean

Russia and China have started the second phase of "Sea Cooperation – 2015", a series of naval exercises which are being conducted in Peter the Great Bay near the Russian Far Eastern city of Vladivostok, Russian media reports said.


Taking part in the drills from both sides are 22 warships, submarines and auxiliary vessels, 20 aircraft, more than 500 marines and 40 armored vehicles, according to Vice Admiral Alexander Fedotenkov, Deputy Chief of the Russian Navy. On August 24, the active phase of the eight-day exercise will begin.

The press service of the Russian Pacific Fleet stated, in turn, that the main goal of the exercises will be drilling joint operations at sea, on land and in the air.

Notably, the exercises are occurring at the same time as NATO’s ongoing airborne drills, which have already been described as the largest war games in Europe since the end of the Cold War.

Alexander Fedotenkov, for his part, touted the scale of the Russian-Chinese naval drills as "unprecedented".

Moscow and Beijing specifically stressed that the drills are not directed against other countries and aim to bolster "Chinese-Russian relations of comprehensive strategic interaction and partnership, deepen friendly military cooperation and strengthen combat capability to jointly confront threats in the sea," according to the Chinese Defense Ministry.




























Russia, China Hold 'Unprecedented' Joint Naval Drills / Sputnik International

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## TaiShang

Chinese Fleet Arrives in Russian Port for Joint Naval Drill
2015-08-21







Russian military band perform during the welcoming ceremony for Chinese navy during the Joint Sea-2015 (II) drill on Aug. 20, 2015 in Vladivostok, Russia. The Joint Sea-2015 (II) drill takes place from Aug. 20 to 28 in the Peter the Great Gulf, waters off the Clerk Cape, and the Sea of Japan, this is the second China-Russia naval exercise this year.[Photo: Xinhua/Sun Yanxin]

A Chinese naval fleet has arrived at the Port of Vladivostok for the second phase of a joint naval drill with Russia.

Wang Hai, head of the Chinese Navy's side of the drill, says the drills they have planned in the coming days will cover anti-submarine warfare and air defense strategies.

"This year, we've broken our drills into two parts. The overall drills represent the friendly cooperation between the two navies, and believe we have made new steps forward. Compared to our drills last year, this year's drills are being carried out at a higher level."

A joint beach landing is also being planned.

This is the second naval exercise between China and Russia this year.

The two sides conducted drills in the Mediterranean in May. 





Chinese navy destroyer Shenyang is seen during the Joint Sea-2015 (II) drill on Aug. 20, 2015 in Vladivostok, Russia. The Joint Sea-2015 (II) drill takes place from Aug. 20 to 28 in the Peter the Great Gulf, waters off the Clerk Cape, and the Sea of Japan, this is the second China-Russia naval exercise this year.[Photo: Xinhua/Sun Yanxin] 





Russian honour guard react at the welcoming ceremony for Chinese navy during the Joint Sea-2015 (II) drill on Aug. 20, 2015 in Vladivostok, Russia. The Joint Sea-2015 (II) drill takes place from Aug. 20 to 28 in the Peter the Great Gulf, waters off the Clerk Cape, and the Sea of Japan, this is the second China-Russia naval exercise this year.[Photo: Xinhua/Sun Yanxin]

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## senheiser

anon45 said:


> ah yes, pravda... next source is presstv?


next source CNN, Fox News, Guardian, Washington Post, New York times and all the other nonesen papers

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## Bussard Ramjet

This is a big load of shit right now.

Also, China doesn't want the Bretton woods system to collapse. It wants to join the group of nations that form the rules and benefit from that. That is the reason to get itself involved in IMF, and asking for Yuan SDR Inclusion. 

I would urge Chinese members here to try to be neutral and look reality. 

The fraction of payments and reserves denominated in dollars has only increased, after the devaluation of Euro, and Yen. 

Right now money is flowing into dollars from all places, even China. That is the reason China's foreign exchange is decreasing.


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## anon45

senheiser said:


> next source CNN, Fox News, Guardian, Washington Post, New York times and all the other nonesen papers


then post them not this shit.

presstv pravda, spudnik, etc are not reliable sources, and they have proven themselves to be taken with a grain of salt, like chinadaily and foxnews, at least when it comes to matters concerning the US and their home countries.


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## senheiser

anon45 said:


> then post them not this shit.
> 
> presstv pravda, spudnik, etc are not reliable sources, and they have proven themselves to be taken with a grain of salt, like chinadaily and foxnews, at least when it comes to matters concerning the US and their home countries.


and everything your US media says about other countries is fact? nope

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## TaiShang

*Russia to build cross-border aerial ropeway with China*

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has signed an order authorizing relevant government departments to clinch with the Chinese side an intergovernmental agreement on the construction, operation and maintenance of the 750-meter-long ropeway across the Amur River in Russia's Far East(the Heilongjiang River in northeast China) on the common border, the government press service said.

The project is to be started this year, while the commissioning of the ropeway is expected by the first quarter of 2018.

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Actually,the Bretton Forest System has begined to collapse when Nixon declared to close the gold-dollar exchange channel in 1971.

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## TaiShang

senheiser said:


> next source CNN, Fox News, Guardian, Washington Post, New York times and all the other nonesen papers



These US-flagged Indian fails to understand that mistrust is mutual. 

We do not trust their press at least as much as they do not trust ours. So it is ineffective to try to ridicule the source based on one's biased opinion.

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## Styx

TaiShang said:


>


interesting, what's this place called ?

and looks like a pretty wide river, what kind of ropeway will it be ?


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## Jlaw

TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> Actually,the Bretton Forest System has begined to collapse when Nixon declared to close the gold-dollar exchange channel in 1971.


True. Bretton Woods system was designed to peg each nation's dollar to actual gold. It was Nixon that took Bretton Woods out thus allowed US to print infinite amount of money.

China and Russia actually want currency to be pegged to gold. I think the article title is misleading.

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## mike2000 is back

eyeswideshut said:


> Agreed.
> OP fails to explain why china is holding american bonds and foreign reserves in dollar then. Fake it till you make it ?



Ahahahahaha.....exactly. Its very easy for China to make the dollar collapse and stop it from being the world reserve currency.

Simple: China just needs to dump all its trillions of its foreign reserves in dollars and massive bonds in dollars its holds in the U.S , open up its capital markets and allow its currency to float freely. If it does all these then its yuan might be among the worlds reserve currencies before we all know it. 

But it also comes with its own risks for its economy though. Anyway, you can't eat your cake and have it. Have to make choices.

Until it does all these , then all these constant years of talks about the yuan/china taking down the dollar is just empty talk.

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## Indika

mike2000 is back said:


> Simple:China just needs to dump all its trillions foreign reserves in dollars and massive bonds in dollars its holds in the U.S , open up its capital markets and allow its currency to float freely. If it does all these then, its yuan will be among the qorlds reserve curewncy before we all know it. But it also comes with risks for its economy though. Anyway, you cant eat your cake and have it. Have to make choices


yes, they are never going to walk the talk. They are just looking for some idiots to try their currency. Why not trade with US in yuan itself ? 
Seriously cant think of a developing country holding trillion dollars in US bonds and very good trade balance every year. They can just pump that money back into their own economy and have a blast.

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## vtnsx

Viet said:


> Of course. or you don't know how the US financed the war efforts in Vietnam? They printed dollars day and night, making the currency more and more worthless. Until a certain breaking point was reached, when in 1971 the US central bank could not keep the promise: the peg 35 USD to a ounce of gold. Pls feel free and check how much an ounce costs right now.
> 
> The US withdrew from VN because the cost became unsustainable, even for a economic and military superpower. That was the strategy of North Vietnam.



It was a trillion plus dollar Vietnam war. An expensive experience for both sides of the country. That is one expensive experience in my textbook.


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## mike2000 is back

eyeswideshut said:


> yes, they are never going to walk the talk. They are just looking for some idiots to try their currency. Why not trade with US in yuan itself ?
> Seriously cant think of a developing country holding trillion dollars in US bonds and very good trade balance every year. They can just pump that money back into their own economy and have a blast.



They are just playing politics my friend. Every big power does that. Use of deception. Only weak/small countries fall for it.


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## anon45

senheiser said:


> and everything your US media says about other countries is fact? nope


of course not, critical thinking is always necessary, and like with fox news, your sources do away with that in favor of a simple narrative that feels good to whatever viewpoint they are catering to. At least in the US there are more viewpoints than the government's viewpoint.



TaiShang said:


> These US-flagged Indian fails to understand that mistrust is mutual.
> 
> We do not trust their press at least as much as they do not trust ours. So it is ineffective to try to ridicule the source based on one's biased opinion.


 fine ,live in your dream world where the US is forever collapsing , you will be great company for Hasbara buster, but i'll still call out these crappy sources for those who actually choose to think instead of opening their mouths for whatever soothes their fragile egos.

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## vtnsx

anon45 said:


> of course not, critical thinking is always necessary, and like with fox news, your sources do away with that in favor of a simple narrative that feels good to whatever viewpoint they are catering to. At least in the US there are more viewpoints than the government's viewpoint.
> 
> fine ,live in your dream world where the US is forever collapsing , you will be great company for Hasbara buster, but i'll still call out these crappy sources for those who actually choose to think instead of opening their mouths for whatever soothes their fragile egos.

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## jhungary

Some time I just wonder what kind of education level are required to write column or article for Russian source.....

Bretton Wood System does not exist anymore, not since US terminate the exchange rate pegged to gold in 1971. The whole point being in Bretton Woods system, in layman term is to put a fixed exchange rate from other country to US dollar and where US dollar then pegged to the Gold Standard, the system failed in 1971 when US central bank announced that there are more fiat money than Gold reserve, resulting currency floating and instead of pegged to USD and then peg to gold, it simply pegged to USD, hence the system failed. Then I wonder how Russia and China can make a failed system, fail again? 

And technically, the only way you can fail the current US Fiat Currency system without any damage to one owns currency is when we go back to the days with barter, trade with goods for goods. And since this is the only way no currency had changed hands, and hence no damage to either side. But then if that is the case. then why would we still use currency?

Problem is, there are no way any one country can collapse the US Dollars without dealing the same damage to themselves, the moment say China collapse the USD, let's say theoretically you can do it, you will devalue all the USD you hold, and all that will become toilet paper, then it will hit with bad debt. Theoretically, china can print more money to substitute the USD in their own procession or even in world's procession, but when you are talking about 68-70% world usage, that mean China have to print enough to replace USD 1 : 1, lol, you don't need a Economy degree to tell you the inflation is going to bring down the economy of China.

lol, hence I do not see how China and Russia join hand (Which contribute to less than 6% of world reserve) can bring down the USD. Some sort of wishful thinking there.

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## cirr

*Mega cargo train links China and Germany
(Lanzhou to Hamburg)*





_A weekly cargo rail service linking Lanzhou with Central Asia started on July 5 this year. The train leaves Lanzhou every Saturday, Niu said._

Friday, 21 August, 2015

*A freight-train service between Hamburg, Germany, and Gansu Province in northwest China opened Friday*.

The first train left Gansu's capital city Lanzhou at 10:50 a.m. on Friday. It will take 13 days to travel the 8,900 kilometers of track to Hamburg.

*The train is carrying machinery and electrical appliances, much of it manufactured in east China. On its return journey, it will carry advanced machinery made in Germany*, according to Niu Xiangdong, vice mayor of Lanzhou.

"This service will help Lanzhou establish a reputation as a hub for foreign trade, which will help develop the industry here," he said.

A weekly cargo rail service linking Lanzhou with Central Asia started on July 5 this year. The train leaves Lanzhou every Saturday, Niu said.

Mega cargo train links China and Germany

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## AndrewJin

How long is it?


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## cirr

AndrewJin said:


> How long is it?



42 wagons for 84 containers。

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## ahojunk

Congratulations to China!

The One Belt One Road is fast taking shape.

There are other trains from China to Europe. From memory, there are trains originating from China that terminate in Madrid and Poland.

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## cirr

*Russia And China To Build Cross-Border Aerial Ropeway*

Posted By: Marie Cabural

Posted date: August 22, 2015 12:27:19 PM

Russia and China are expected to build a 750-meter long aerial ropeway to allow people to pass through across a border river, which would boost tourism in both countries, report Shanghai Daily.





According to the press service of the Russian government, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev signed an order authorizing certain government agencies to strike an intergovernmental agreement with counterparts in China for the construction, operation, and maintenance of the cross-border aerial ropeway on Amur River (Heilongjiang River in China).

*Cross-border aerial ropeway expected to attract investments*

Russia and China are expected to begin the construction of the cross-border aerial ropeway this year, and its estimated opening will be in the first quarter of 2018. The ropeway is expected to add beauty to the Amur region and attract infrastructure investments to improve it as a tourist destination. It is also expected to help promote socio-economic development in the region.

Additionally, China and Russia are expecting to complete the construction of the *2,215-meter long railway bridge across the Amur River* by 2015. The bridge will connect China’s Tongjiang City in Heilongjiang Province with Nizhneleninskoye with Russia's Jewish Autonomous Oblast.

The bridge is expected to help boost the development of cross-border trade, transportation and tourism in the region.

A package of investment programs related to the two cross-border projects will be discussed during the upcoming 2015 Eastern Economonuc Forum (EEF) on September 3 to 4 in Vladivostok, Russia.

*Russia and China expected to sign 22 agreements*

Russian President Vladimir Putin is scheduled to visit China on September 3. He will join his counterpart Xi Jinping in the celebration of the 70th Anniversary of China’s victory against Japan and the broader defeat of the Axis powers and the end of the World War II.

"At the beginning of September, Putin will pay a visit to China. He will also attend celebrations of the 70th anniversary of Victory in the world war against Nazis and the war of China’s resistance to Japanese aggressors. An official meeting between Putin and [Chinese] President Xi Jinping is planned during solemn celebrations," said China’s Deputy Foreign Minister Chen Gopin.

The People’s Liberation Army will showcase its newest military equipment during the event.

Russia and China are expected to sign 22 agreements, according to the Russian Ambassador to Beijing Andrei Denisov. According to him, Putin and other members of the Russian delegation would discuss a range of issues with the Chinese party including trade and economic cooperation.

Denisov said, "I can say that we have 22 documents on the list.” According to him, the documents are related to infrastructure construction, banking, and financial sectors.

"We also expect to see the CEOs of our energy and metals companies, and also transport companies, as we have many transport projects," according to the Ambassador.

Meanwhile, Russia and China started the second phase of the joint naval exercises (Joint Sea 2015) involving 22 warships and more than 500 troops, 20 aircraft, and 40 armor vehicles.

Wang Haiqing of Xinhua commented that the joint naval drills are designed to promote maritime security and regional stability. Political observers suggested that both countries are seeking to extend their military power in the Asian region, which is torn byterritorial disputes.

"Growing military ties between Russia and China have irritated some sensitive nerves especially in Washington, but it is worth noting that excessive geopolitical interpretation of a specific military drill is neither necessary nor justified," said Haiqing.

Russia And China To Build Cross-Border Aerial Ropeway

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## TaiShang

*China opens cargo train service from northwest city to Germany
(Lanzhou to Hamburg)*
| 2015-08-21

LANZHOU, Aug. 21 (Xinhua) -- A freight-train service between Hamburg, Germany, and Gansu Province in northwest China opened Friday.

The first train left Gansu's capital city Lanzhou at 10:50 a.m. on Friday. It will take 13 days to travel the 8,900 kilometers of track to Hamburg.

The train is carrying machinery and electrical appliances, much of it manufactured in east China. On its return journey, it will carry advanced machinery made in Germany, according to Niu Xiangdong, vice mayor of Lanzhou.

"This service will help Lanzhou establish a reputation as a hub for foreign trade, which will help develop the industry here," he said.

A weekly cargo rail service linking Lanzhou with Central Asia started on July 5 this year. The train leaves Lanzhou every Saturday, Niu said.


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## Keel

for the foreign-minded simpletons in economics please dont give your vodoo and stolen economic concepts again

Bretton Woods system is a sound system which was built on substance
It aimed to maintain order and stability in currency exchanges all across the board while the american system is built on "american credits" like your credit card without signing limits - like the economists said "Fiat Money" which I brought the term for the first time on PDF on similar topic

China's Yuan is not going to "replace" the dollar overnight or anytime soon.

But the gist of the OP is stating the challenge against the dollars hegemony is there and the most qualified candidate for this job is laid on the shoulders of PRC now

Will RMB succeed in doing so? I think this is beyond discussion but the real sense of the endeavours is the world needs a rebalancing of "dollar hegemony" which will benefit the world currency regimes on the long run if RMB rises in prominence!

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## gambit

jhungary said:


> Some time I just wonder what kind of education level are required to write column or article for Russian source.....


The same level that is in someone gullible enough to believe Russian sources.


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## TaiShang

anon45 said:


> of course not, critical thinking is always necessary, and like with fox news, your sources do away with that in favor of a simple narrative that feels good to whatever viewpoint they are catering to. At least in the US there are more viewpoints than the government's viewpoint.
> 
> fine ,live in your dream world where the US is forever collapsing , you will be great company for Hasbara buster, but i'll still call out these crappy sources for those who actually choose to think instead of opening their mouths for whatever soothes their fragile egos.



Chillax, man. I know you know by heart you have a great democracy and you are simultaneously very critical-minded, multi-dimensional, multi-layered, cost-effective and environment-friendly. The news article above is just slightly above your level despite of all the amaznamous attributes and features you have.

Nobody claims the collapse of the US. I promise it won't collapse.

Today I wrote a long post somewhere here arguing that it is only the US that is capable of policing and dominating the world while China is neither capable of nor willing to do so.

You can take my words for China's foreign policy.

China is simply a developing country while US is the behemoth.

Feeling better now?

Note: Those who *believe* that "those who *believe* in Russian resources are gullible" are the ones who are gullible themselves. Period. This won't be open for debate again.

By the way, which *idiot *chooses to use the word *believe *to refer to reading news sources? This reflects a serious mental disorder and a state of mind of certain Western readership that think reading is an act of believing.

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## Economic superpower

Viet said:


> Of course. or you don't know how the US financed the war efforts in Vietnam? They printed dollars day and night, making the currency more and more worthless. Until a certain breaking point was reached, when in 1971 the US central bank could not keep the promise: the peg 35 USD to a ounce of gold. Pls feel free and check how much an ounce costs right now.
> 
> The US withdrew from VN because the cost became unsustainable, even for a economic and military superpower. That was the strategy of North Vietnam.



LOL you are incredibly stupid if you think the Vietnam war was the one that made the US go off the gold standard.

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## TaiShang

US stocks plunge in early trading after Chinese stock rout - The San Francisco Examiner

***

Comment:

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? My answer is: "it depends on who you are, and what your outlook and bearings are, and where you see your goals in financial planning are."

For the stock gamblers, short-term speculators, and those looking at "churning" and flipping stocks, these are bad times.

For the China-bashing, Chinese-demonizing US investors, i.e. those who look at China purely as a casino, and not interested in long-term China, but only in pure profits, short-term, and nothing else, *this is the time to panic and flee.*

But those of us who have followed China and love its governance and model of economic planning look at China's economic correction, as seen through the Shanghai and Shenzhen stock market rout, the shift from an export-based economy to a domestic-consumer-services based economy, with a re-direction into the new tech economy that is information-knowledge-based, in the e-commerce trajectory that is dramatically different from the mega-malls, bricks and mortar retailing that China's heady urban bling-bling economy... think that this is a correction and overhaul that is long overdue and must be made, with lots of pains and impact upon a privileged, albeit increasingly over-exuberant, and hyper-stimulated sector within China, who have lost all sense of proportionality nor grasp what China's "model of socialism with Chinese characteristics" is all about.

True, China's domestic economy, which has fueled the demand for global natural resources, and construction materials, such as cement, steel, fossil fuel, minerals, chemicals, particularly from those countries which have heavily depended on China as an export market for their resources, such as Australia, Brazil, the U.S., Canada, et al, are being impacted by China's economic correction, with a slowdown in imports of raw materials.

It is to be expected.

All in all, a 5% to 7% GDP growth is not bad for China, and this correction is a reflection of China's economic decision to shift away from an overheated, heady capitalist model of growth, and replacing it with a more balanced growth model that refocuses on social-economic priorities which take care of the vast masses of working Chinese who are not the urban elite, the compradores, and those weaned on export-driven manufacturing.

It is time to re-calibrate and look at a more rational China economic growth model that factors in a more equitable distribution of the wealth, more holistic health care, more sensible housing policies, rather than a hyper-speculative feverish frenzy, cleaner air, cleaner water, less traffic gridlock, a shift away from private automobile obsession, more environmental sustainable growth, better quality of life, a more socially responsible intelligentsia who are not consumed by "fa-jai" (wealth pursuit) as the end-all-and-be-all. And yes, better schools and education which is not consumed by "chu-guo liu xueh" and "western-moon worshipping" and US fellowships and scholarships to study abroad.

This alleged exodus of "panic" or "flight" money is to be expected. But China is not a sinking ship, the Titanic.

China is merely cleaning up and cleansing its big ship of rodents, vectors, rats, maggots, and the socially-reckless, ethically-irresponsible busisnessmen, their corrupt officials who back up their cronyistic business practices, and the foreign-western-US carpet baggers and hustlers.

*For these folks, China is not a good place to be at this time.*

*Welcome to the new ride in China's new "Belt and Road" trajectory. It is not for those who are in it purely for a quick ride and fast profits.*

*China is not for everyone.* Specially if you are a hustler, a stock casino gambler, and someone who is disinterested in "socialism with Chinese characteristics."

Edward Liu

@tranquilium , @Keel , @terranMarine , @AndrewJin , @opruh , @Shotgunner51

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> *It is hard to say what US leadership was exactly thinking when it decided to improperly impose sanctions on Moscow, but Russia's consequent pivot to Asia and its blooming partnership with Beijing have had major negative implications for the US power globally.*



Well it's true.

Similar to the Cold War, there are 3 main poles. USA, Russia, and China (and the allies of all three).

In a system with 3 poles, the idea is to get 2 of them together in order to gain the advantage.

USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.

But now, the Russians won't forget these sanctions for a 100 years. The USA has forever turned Russia into their enemy. An enemy with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.

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## Pangu

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well it's true.
> 
> Similar to the Cold War, there are 3 main poles. USA, Russia, and China (and the allies of all three).
> 
> In a system with 3 poles, the idea is to get 2 of them together in order to gain the advantage.
> 
> USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.
> 
> But now, the Russians won't forget these sanctions for a 100 years. The USA has forever turned Russia into their enemy. An enemy with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.



Well, if only they've read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, lol.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well it's true.
> 
> Similar to the Cold War, there are 3 main poles. USA, Russia, and China (and the allies of all three).
> 
> In a system with 3 poles, the idea is to get 2 of them together in order to gain the advantage.
> 
> USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.
> 
> But now, the Russians won't forget these sanctions for a 100 years. The USA has forever turned Russia into their enemy. An enemy with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.



We should forever be indebted to Mrs. Clinton for ruining "the reset." That was probably the closest moment when the US would have a chance to take down China.

Probably we will be thankful to Mr. Kerry for supporting radical terrorism in Syria, because that is, although a nightmare for the region, realistically, not so bad for China because it has the potential to keep the US busy for years to come.

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## xesy

Seriously, who gonna believe it. If the drill is not to flex muscles against US and the West, then who China and Russia show off to? Alien?


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## TaiShang

xesy said:


> Seriously, who gonna believe it. If the drill is not to flex muscles against US and the West, then who China and Russia show off to? Alien?



This is to increase compatibility between the two navies. Besides, we are as concerned about the regional peace as the US.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> We should forever be indebted to Mrs. Clinton for ruining "the reset." That was probably the closest moment when the US would have a chance to take down China.
> 
> Probably we will be thankful to Mr. Kerry for supporting radical terrorism in Syria, because that is, although a nightmare for the region, realistically, not so bad for China because it has the potential to keep the US busy for years to come.



Russia is a great ally to have, even if America didn't constantly get itself stuck in Middle Eastern quagmires.

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## Lure

Well on the recent events, China made it clear that US policy makers should always put China into equation when dealing with Russia. Thus China would be internationally responsible for Russia's actions. This is a great source of power but also a great responsibility. I guess from now on, China will be percieved as a direct adversary instead of a potential one for US policy makers.

As I've told before being able to stop the "mini cold war" (Asia pivot) is China's first serious challenge in the region now, because there will be less and less middle east or Russia in US foreign policy and more and more Asia-Pacific. Meaning China is becoming the main target of the US foreign policy.

For a long time after it's opening up China had never made any real effort to lead the anti-western polar of the world. It always seeked a balance among the "west" and the "east" in terms of relations. However those policies naturally came to an end. China has no way going back to it's old foreign policy after saving Russia from US imposed sanctions.

However I would wish for a different solution. It's a world wide know fact that US politics can bought. And it's a solid fact that China has a very strong diaspora and multinational cooperations (unlike Russia). Why not make lobby and push for what China wants in the US -just like Israel and many other European country does- instead of jumping on the bandwagon with Russia who has no clear international policy option other than publicly "brawling" US?

China has so many options for taking what it wants compared to Russia. I hope Chinese policy makers are keeping that in mind.

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## Bussard Ramjet

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well it's true.
> 
> Similar to the Cold War, there are 3 main poles. USA, Russia, and China (and the allies of all three).
> 
> In a system with 3 poles, the idea is to get 2 of them together in order to gain the advantage.
> 
> USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.
> 
> But now, the Russians won't forget these sanctions for a 100 years. The USA has forever turned Russia into their enemy. An enemy with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.




How is Russia a pole exactly?

The only thing that Russia has is a lot of land, a lot of nukes, and lot of oil. 

Russia is a 2 trillion economy, which is in recession. (Japan is a 4 trillion dollar economy, European Union combined a 17 trillion dollar economy) 

Russia has 140 million people, with an average percapita GDP of just above middle class. 

Russia has almost no industry of any note, apart from Soviet legacy military complex. 

Far more research happens in Germany alone, then the whole of Russia. 

Russia is now surrounded by NATO, upto its borders. 

Almost all nearby countries hate Russia, especially in Eastern Europe. 


I would say, the actual poles are US, Europe, China, and then the rest are small regional actors.

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## cirr

xesy said:


> Seriously, who gonna believe it. If the drill is not to flex muscles against US and the West, then who China and Russia show off to? Alien?



You don't have to believe anything，just stay believing in yourself。

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## Chinese-Dragon

Lure said:


> However I would wish for a different solution. It's a world wide know fact that US politics can bought. And it's a solid fact that China has a very strong diaspora and multinational cooperations (unlike Russia). Why not make lobby and push for what China wants in the US -just like Israel and many other European country does- instead of jumping on the bandwagon with Russia who has no clear international policy option other than publicly "brawling" US?



Well Russia openly "brawls" with the US as you say, while we stay in the background setting up a parallel international system, with organizations like the AIIB (which America's own allies ended up joining) and the SCO, among others.

Seems like a synergistic relationship.

Having an internal lobby inside America seems difficult. USA politics is very sceptical of anything that could be seen as pro-Russia or pro-China, with shades of the old McCarthyism.

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## TaiShang

Really good points. Thank you for the constructive post, which we miss these days.



Lure said:


> Well on the recent events, China made it clear that US policy makers should always put China into equation when dealing with Russia. Thus China would be internationally responsible for Russia's actions. This is a great source of power but also a great responsibility. I guess from now on, China will be percieved as a direct adversary instead of a potential one for US policy makers.



That's very interesting take although any Russian diplomat would disagree with. I am not sure whether siding with Russia on major global issues would by default mean being accountable for all of Russia's behavior. In the case of Ukraine Crisis, China has chosen not to overtly support Russia and adopted an oft-used rhetoric of political solution between the related (direct) parties.

The US in fact attempted a pact with Russia during the Reset period but for some reason it derailed. That could be due to private interests and in-fighting in Washington. As most of us know, Washington is a not a unitary colossus, but an amalgamation of private and group interests that keep fighting and trying to steer the country to their own benefit. They do it more elegantly due to sophisticated methods and instruments, but, still, this does not rule out the fact that the inner struggle has been rather fierce.

In my opinion, the winning side decided to estrange Russia and bring it on to China in the form of the Pivot. With Russia on the board or not, I believe China had already been decided as the new enemy. The mistake they made included taking Russia lightly. And China has proven to be an able international actor. None of the neo-liberal and neo-realist postulations by US political scientists have come about.



Lure said:


> As I've told before being able to stop the "mini cold war" (Asia pivot) is China's first serious challenge in the region now, because there will be less and less middle east or Russia in US foreign policy and more and more Asia-Pacific. Meaning China is becoming the main target of the US foreign policy.



I believe both Middle East and Russia will loom larger in the US foreign policy, and even largely so if a Republican gets the White House. On the Eastern front, on the other, escalation and war effort against DPRK has been stalled by China. The TPP is all over the place. The effort to stop China's island development program has failed and become the new normal. Today, nobody is talking about it except some MA students who want to get published online. China declared an ADIZ and rendered the DiaoyuDai a disputed island (thanks to Japanese recklessness, I should add).



Lure said:


> For a long time after it's opening up China had never made any real effort to lead the anti-western polar of the world. It always seeked a balance among the "west" and the "east" in terms of relations. However those policies naturally came to an end. China has no way going back to it's old foreign policy after saving Russia from US imposed sanctions.



But the trade relations with the US has been just as good. And geopolitical struggle has always been on the agenda. The Taiwan Straits Crisis took place in 1996. They bombed our embassy in Belgrade. The spy-plane accident in the 2000s. So, there has always been a struggle while China made business connections with all over the world. The balancing is in fact stronger these days as the US declines as the representative of the West. Now the UK and Germany can jump onto the AIIB wagon despite the US explicitly says the otherwise. And I cannot think of a better "East-West integration" program than the One-Belt, One-Road program, which has been announced in 2013. I agree that China will have to take more assertive posture but I do not see China being pushed to choose between East or West. China is just too big to choose. It embraces all.



Lure said:


> However I would wish for a different solution. It's a world wide know fact that US politics can bought. And it's a solid fact that China has a very strong diaspora and multinational cooperations (unlike Russia). Why not make lobby and push for what China wants in the US -just like Israel and many other European country does- instead of jumping on the bandwagon with Russia who has no clear international policy option other than publicly "brawling" US?



That I would strongly disagree with. Especially if influencing US politics means hiring some lobby agency (probably, Jewish?) in Washington (I guess Turkey has done that) and try to influence decision making in the Congress.

Buying US politics is for Armenian diaspora, Israeli lobbyists, Arab oil sheikhs, or Turkish government who wants to fight Nancy Pelossi in Congress. That's just un-great powerish. 

A great power like China would not resort to such tactics. For once, when it comes to China, the US is not that almighty. If China does not like something it vetoes (if it is on the UNSC) like it did two times with respect to Syria, or simply says 'no,' like it did with island development in SCS or ADIZ in ECS.

China, in this sense, does not jump on any bandwagon, be it Russian or US. The relationship with Russia is one of the equals. We are not obliged to do anything just for the sake of being a partner (this is unlike NATO which obliges the UK to fight alongside the US in the Middle East even when the general public does not want so). The SCO is not a NATO. China's foreign policy is not formulated in the conventional hard alliance or hub-and-spokes way.

@Chinese-Dragon

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## IR-TR

Bussard Ramjet said:


> How is Russia a pole exactly?
> 
> The only thing that Russia has is a lot of land, a lot of nukes, and lot of oil.
> 
> Russia is a 2 trillion economy, which is in recession. (Japan is a 4 trillion dollar economy, European Union combined a 17 trillion dollar economy)
> 
> Russia has 140 million people, with an average percapita GDP of just above middle class.
> 
> Russia has almost no industry of any note, apart from Soviet legacy military complex.
> 
> Far more research happens in Germany alone, then the whole of Russia.
> 
> Russia is now surrounded by NATO, upto its borders.
> 
> Almost all nearby countries hate Russia, especially in Eastern Europe.
> 
> 
> I would say, the actual poles are US, Europe, China, and then the rest are small regional actors.



What you say is true, but doesn't tell the whole story. Russia is number one in energy and mineral resources in the world. And it has arguably the most strategic location in the world. That, coupled with a strong military and lots of nukes, makes Russia a great power, though not as great as the US/EU or China or a future India. But still, not a small regional player either.

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## rott

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well it's true.
> 
> Similar to the Cold War, there are 3 main poles. USA, Russia, and China (and the allies of all three).
> 
> In a system with 3 poles, the idea is to get 2 of them together in order to gain the advantage.
> 
> USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.
> 
> But now, the Russians won't forget these sanctions for a 100 years. The USA has forever turned Russia into their enemy. An enemy with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.


USA's foreign policy is all messed up. They just bit more than they can chew. 

Silly cheese burgers and freedom fries.

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## anon45

IR-TR said:


> What you say is true, but doesn't tell the whole story. Russia is number one in energy and mineral resources in the world. And it has arguably the most strategic location in the world. That, coupled with a strong military and lots of nukes, makes Russia a great power, though not as great as the US/EU or China or a future India. But still, not a small regional player either.



Russia can't really be considered a typical regional player as you say, because its sheer geographical size precludes it.
That said it is the weakest of the poles economically and soft power wise, the others being US, EU, and China.

potential emerging poles being Brazil and India.

I wouldn't call Russia's location strategic, it's size is as much a curse as it is a benefit.





What is increasingly likely is, short of a stunning turnaround in Russian foreign policy, Russia will be beholden to the pole of China economically, in time becoming a secondary power to it as China holds more sway over the Russian economy, and Russia has nowhere else to turn.


An ascendant India could change this.

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## xesy

cirr said:


> You don't have to believe anything，just stay believing in yourself。


I question neither your belief or mine, I merely pointing out the fact that it is ridiculous for any sane person to believe in such obvious lies from the govt.


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## IR-TR

Indeed, but Russia will always be 'beholden to' bigger economies, be it the EU or China. Indeed, Russia's best best is to play it in between an INDEPENDENT (non US-infested) EU, China and India. That would be Russia making the best of it's self. All three real poles need Russia's energy, and all three would 'respect' Russia because of it's military. Russia is really just a very big Kazakhstan when you think of it. Can be neutral with all major surrounding powers. But for now, it will become closer to China because the West (US) is out to encircle and destroy Russia.

Edit: About Brazil, and any other South American country: they're only really buddying up with China/Brics, because of economic interests, of because the US is terrorizing them (Argentina/Venezuela). Otherwise, those nations are just as 'white' and Western as the US and Europe. So in the very very far future, they'll be just as pro American as Mexico or Canada. So I wouldn't call Brazil an independent pole. India will be one, China already is one, and there will be a large 'Western' pole. Otherwise the numbers don't add up.

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## Economic superpower

anon45 said:


> Russia can't really be considered a typical regional player as you say, because its sheer geographical size precludes it.
> That said it is the weakest of the poles economically and soft power wise, the others being US, EU, and China.
> 
> I wouldn't call Russia's location strategic, it's size is as much a curse as it is a benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> potential emerging poles being Brazil and India.
> 
> What is increasingly likely is, short of a stunning turnaround in Russian foreign policy, Russia will be beholden to the pole of China economically, in time becoming a secondary power to it as China holds more sway over the Russian economy, and Russia has nowhere else to turn.
> 
> 
> An ascendant India could change this.



India ain't touching China. Whatever power India has, China will be significantly ahead of them.

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## Place Of Space

anon45 said:


> Russia can't really be considered a typical regional player as you say, because its sheer geographical size precludes it.
> That said it is the weakest of the poles economically and soft power wise, the others being US, EU, and China.
> 
> potential emerging poles being Brazil and India.
> 
> I wouldn't call Russia's location strategic, it's size is as much a curse as it is a benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is increasingly likely is, short of a stunning turnaround in Russian foreign policy, Russia will be beholden to the pole of China economically, in time becoming a secondary power to it as China holds more sway over the Russian economy, and Russia has nowhere else to turn.
> 
> 
> An ascendant India could change this.



ahaah, the west is pleased to despise Russia, but China won't. 
In the cold war, Russia failed because Russia look down on China and push China into American camp..

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## anon45

IR-TR said:


> Indeed, but Russia will always be 'beholden to' bigger economies, be it the EU or China. Indeed, Russia's best best is to play it in between an INDEPENDENT (non US-infested) EU, China and India. That would be Russia making the best of it's self. All three real poles need Russia's energy, and all three would 'respect' Russia because of it's military. Russia is really just a very big Kazakhstan when you think of it. Can be neutral with all major surrounding powers. But for now, it will become closer to China because the West (US) is out to encircle and destroy Russia.



That will have to be a hope for the long term,
Russia's military will not earn it 'positive' respect in the EU (primarily Eastern Europe), only fear in the short term due to the Soviet Union's legacy, this is regardless of the US having influence on EU decisions or not.

As long as Russia occupies Crimea and carries on a proxy invasion in Ukraine, there will be no neutrality for Russia in the EU for the medium term. I only say this because in the long term anything is possible.



Economic superpower said:


> India ain't touching China. Whatever power India has, China will be significantly ahead of them.



So the US though of China in the 1990's


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## xunzi

India being a pole is something I'm afraid I won't be living to witness. India has enormous problem and they haven't really figure out how to solve their energy need which will become a crisis in the future.

For Russia, it is a great power. Russia is a mature power. It has enormous strategic depth that across vast boundary and territories. Being on Russia's side is not a bad thing. Guarantee nuclear cover and energy, which is all we need when facing the US in an all out war, if that day ever comes. Although the current policy is not to take any side in the West vs Russia dispute, there is no question we favor toward the balancing act. We will continue to support and lift Russia when we see it is being push to the corner. This does not mean we are against the West as we have very favorable view and relation with European Powers. It means we protecting our securities and national interests by keeping the world multi-polar balance instead of submitting to the US unipolar hegemony.

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## anon45

Place Of Space said:


> ahaah, the west is pleased to despise Russia, but China won't.
> In the cold war, Russia failed because Russia look down on China and push China into American camp..



I won't say pleased, i personally had hopes for a rapprochement given the shared interest in fighting terrorism among other things, but alas!

I suppose like Eastern European countries are paranoid of Russia, Russia is paranoid of NATO even though it is clearly a defensive alliance and was struggling for relevancy before Russia invaded Ukraine. Well no questions about its relevance now.



xunzi said:


> India being a pole is something I'm afraid I won't be living to witness. India has enormous problem and they haven't really figure out how to solve their energy need which will become a crisis in the future.
> 
> For Russia, it is a great power. Russia is a mature power. It has enormous strategic depth that across vast boundary and territories. Being on Russia's side is not a bad thing. Guarantee nuclear cover and energy, which is all we need when facing the US in an all out war, if that day ever comes. Although the current policy is not to take any side in the West vs Russia dispute, there is no question we favor toward the balancing act. We will continue to support and lift Russia when we see it is being push to the corner. This does not mean we are against the West as we have very favorable view and relation with European Powers. It means we protecting our securities and national interests by keeping the world multi-polar balance instead of submitting to the US unipolar hegemony.



If the current Russia is considered Russia as a mature and developed power, then I weep for Russians .


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## Economic superpower

anon45 said:


> That will have to be a hope for the long term,
> Russia's military will not earn it 'positive' respect in the EU (primarily Eastern Europe), only fear in the short term due to the Soviet Union's legacy, this is regardless of the US having influence on EU decisions or not.
> 
> As long as Russia occupies Crimea and carries on a proxy invasion in Ukraine, there will be no neutrality for Russia in the EU for the medium term. I only say this because in the long term anything is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> So the US though of China in the 1990's



India is not China. Never has been and never will be.

I thought you were an American. Sounds like you're an Indian.

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## xunzi

anon45 said:


> If the current Russia is considered Russia as a mature and developed power, then I weep for Russians .


So you think Russia should lay down, and let Ukraine join EU and having NATO expand further into Russia proper is the right thing to do then? Remember when you push the mother bear to the end of death, it will aggressively attack and defend their cubs.

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## anon45

Economic superpower said:


> India is not China. Never has been and never will be.
> 
> I thought you were an American. Sounds like you're an Indian.


well its possible i'm overestimating India, but just because i'm optimistic about India's future is hardly a reason to doubt me being American. 

Yes India is not a pole today, but given its demographics and being one of the geographically larger countries in the world, it definitely has the potential.


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## Broccoli

rott said:


> USA's foreign policy is all messed up. They just bit more than they can chew.
> 
> Silly cheese burgers and freedom fries.



US foreign policy is messed up because there is weak president in White House.

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## Shotgunner51

Bussard Ramjet said:


> How is Russia a pole exactly?
> 
> The only thing that Russia has is a lot of land, a lot of nukes, and lot of oil.
> 
> Russia is a 2 trillion economy, which is in recession. (Japan is a 4 trillion dollar economy, European Union combined a 17 trillion dollar economy)
> 
> Russia has 140 million people, with an average percapita GDP of just above middle class.
> 
> Russia has almost no industry of any note, apart from Soviet legacy military complex.
> 
> Far more research happens in Germany alone, then the whole of Russia.
> 
> Russia is now surrounded by NATO, upto its borders.
> 
> Almost all nearby countries hate Russia, especially in Eastern Europe.
> 
> 
> I would say, the actual poles are US, Europe, China, and then the rest are small regional actors.



US is a pole for sure.

As you have mentioned biggest land, biggest nuke stockpile, biggest gas/oil reserve, big "medium" developed society, Soviet legacy military-industrial base, then add UNSC P5 membership, geopolitical influence in CEE/MENA/SA, this combo makes *Russia a definite pole*.

EU is arguably a pole. It's an "Union" of small/medium sized nations, so is it truly coherent as a pole, given its sovereign members differ alot in their geo-economic interests? Also, Germany is all that matters.

China is also arguably a pole, since it actively maintains trade relationships with any country, no geopolitics attached, ending up as biggest trade partners for most countries in the world. China will continue to deepen trade ties with Eurasian countries, whether they are under western sanctions or not.

The only two poles are US, and Russia.



xunzi said:


> Being on Russia's side is not a bad thing




Russia is the only pole fighting against US global hegemony, so being on Russia's side is the righteous thing to do. Sino-Russia economic integration should be deepened.

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## anon45

xunzi said:


> So you think Russia should lay down, and let Ukraine join EU and having NATO expand further into Russia proper is the right thing to do then? Remember when you push the mother bear to the end of death, it will aggressively attack and defend their cubs.


Russia proper? Ignoring that NATO is a defensive alliance and would not attempt to invade Russia without something catastrophic first happening caused by Russia, shouldn't Russia's own nuclear arsenal give it enough piece of mind? No army is going to invade faster than a nuke flies.

As for NATO expanding, the continued expansion is due to Russia's foreign policy. These countries aren't being forced into joining, they choose to themselves because they fear Russia enough to do so!


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## xunzi

anon45 said:


> well its possible i'm overestimating India, but just because i'm optimistic about India's future is hardly a reason to doubt me being American.
> 
> Yes India is not a pole today, but given its demographics and being one of the geographically larger countries in the world, it definitely has the potential.


India advantage is having a big youth population and that's where everything begins and ends there. Its large demographics will become a problem when it seeks to grow. Expect much higher pollution coming out from them once they start to industrializing due to the fact it is a very tightly pack population. To feed its population with little resources. I don't know how they are going to accomplish that. I'm afraid India might already miss the 3rd industrialized period. With climate change talk and countries trying to reduce CO2, much stricter IPs, it is going to be much harder for India to industrialize now. If they can't industrialize, they have no shot at being a power because without playing a bigger role in global trade, security, and politics, they have no influence.



anon45 said:


> Russia proper? Ignoring that NATO is a defensive alliance and would not attempt to invade Russia without something catastrophic first happening caused by Russia, shouldn't Russia's own nuclear arsenal give it enough piece of mind? No army is going to invade faster than a nuke flies.
> 
> As for NATO expanding, the continued expansion is due to Russia's foreign policy. These countries aren't being forced into joining, they choose to themselves because they fear Russia enough to do so!


You like to spill that typical American propaganda that I doubt anyone believe in it. Oh right, you are not trying to invade Russia but only try to subjugate Russia by deploying missile defenses. LOL In this day and age, Russia is not going to allow anyone to intimidate Russia into changing their foreign policy. What Russia fear is not anyone in NATO attacking Russia, but it is the fact that you are crossing the red line into Russia influence and thus threaten their independent foreign policy. Ukraine and Syria crisis were two examples. Modern age war is fought by proxy through political; influence. Military force is only the last resolve.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Bussard Ramjet said:


> How is Russia a pole exactly?
> 
> The only thing that Russia has is a lot of land, a lot of nukes, and lot of oil.
> 
> Russia is a 2 trillion economy, which is in recession. (Japan is a 4 trillion dollar economy, European Union combined a 17 trillion dollar economy)
> 
> Russia has 140 million people, with an average percapita GDP of just above middle class.
> 
> Russia has almost no industry of any note, apart from Soviet legacy military complex.
> 
> Far more research happens in Germany alone, then the whole of Russia.
> 
> Russia is now surrounded by NATO, upto its borders.
> 
> Almost all nearby countries hate Russia, especially in Eastern Europe.
> 
> 
> I would say, the actual poles are US, Europe, China, and then the rest are small regional actors.



Well, we are talking about independent poles of power.

Those others that you mentioned, they aren't independent poles of power. They fall entirely under the American pole.

Russia on the other hand is an independent power.

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## Tractor

Then Xi's visit to US this month must be forgotten.


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## Zsari

anon45 said:


> As for NATO expanding, the continued expansion is due to Russia's foreign policy. These countries aren't being forced into joining, they choose to themselves because they fear Russia enough to do so!


 
Oh, they are not forced to join, but regime change will be on the horizon for those that don't. NATO is not a defensive alliance, not the way US intend to use it. It's a containment mechanism and it is a constrictor.

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## TaiShang

rott said:


> Ohhhhhhhhhhh.... You're so mean to India and Indians.



Just being realistic and offer my educated opinion bro. 



Zsari said:


> Oh, they are not forced to join, but regime change will be on the horizon for those that don't. NATO is not a defensive alliance, not the way US intend to use it. It's a containment mechanism and it is a constrictor.



That Indian person should read the NATO charter to understand the nature of it. It is not defensive at all. It is designed as preemptive.

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## TaiShang

xesy said:


> I question neither your belief or mine, I merely pointing out the fact that it is ridiculous for any sane person to believe in such obvious lies from the govt.



You have to take the official line. Intentions are a whole different animal.

It is good to talk softly while clinching an iron fist at arms length.

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## anon45

Shotgunner51 said:


> As you have mentioned biggest land, biggest nuke stockpile, biggest gas/oil reserve, big "medium" developed society, Soviet legacy military-industrial base, then add UNSC P5 membership, geopolitical influence in CEE/MENA/SA, this combo makes Russia a definite pole.
> 
> EU is arguably a pole. It's an "Union", so is it truly coherent as a pole, given its sovereign members differ alot in their geo-economic interests? Also, Germany is all that matters.



Well they were united enough to agree to sanctions on Russia, so I would say there is enough unity of purpose for it to be considered a legitimate pole in its own right.


Economic superpower said:


> No American would ever say 'No American thought China would in the 1990s' with a smiley face.
> 
> You are Indian!



lol you have some strange ideas about what an american should or should not do. Do you deny that few could have imagined China's position today in the early 1990's?

Whatever, what you guys want my nationality to be is no matter, though it is somewhat annoying to be referred to as an Indian when I am in fact American .

Well admitting that i expect every troll on here to now refer to me as Indian in a misguided attempt to get under my skin. 

Will respond to other post later.



Zsari said:


> Oh, they are not forced to join, but regime change will be on the horizon for those that don't. NATO is not a defensive alliance, not the way US intend to use it. It's a containment mechanism and it is a constrictor.


ok i lied, quick post! if by containment you mean Russia has little influence over the country with its military then yes, you are correct it does contain them. Otherwise any examples of aggressive NATO actions?

are you referring to Ukraine in this example? we will have to agree to disagree on that, but can you name any other members that were 'regime changed' into the alliance?[/QUOTE]


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## Zsari

anon45 said:


> ok i lied, quick post! if by containment you mean Russia has little influence over the country with its military then yes, you are correct it does contain them. Otherwise any examples of aggressive NATO actions?
> 
> are you referring to Ukraine in this example? we will have to agree to disagree on that, but can you name any other members that were 'regime changed' into the alliance?


 
Yugoslavia?

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## Lure

TaiShang said:


> That's very interesting take although any Russian diplomat would disagree with. I am not sure whether siding with Russia on major global issues would by default mean being accountable for all of Russia's behavior. In the case of Ukraine Crisis, China has chosen not to overtly support Russia and adopted an oft-used rhetoric of political solution between the related (direct) parties.



There is a problem here. Actions speak louder than words. I agree with you that China did not make any bold statements about the Crimera issue or Ukraine problem in general, but counteracted against the US sanctions agains Russia which was implemented just because of the Ukraine problem. Hence China taken away the tool to "punish" Russia from USA's hands. Let me ask you something, if you were a US policy maker, would you go on punishing Russia in that conjecture? Or would you pick on the country that keeps Russia "alive" in your next problem with them?

China made it clear that, ignoring China when there is a problem with Russia, is like ignoring US when there is a problem with UK. How would you take US out of the equation if you have a problem with UK? The relation between Russia and China evolved into a similar fashion at the moment when China made US sanction against Russia ineffective.



TaiShang said:


> The US in fact attempted a pact with Russia during the Reset period but for some reason it derailed. That could be due to private interests and in-fighting in Washington. As most of us know, Washington is a not a unitary colossus, but an amalgamation of private and group interests that keep fighting and trying to steer the country to their own benefit. They do it more elegantly due to sophisticated methods and instruments, but, still, this does not rule out the fact that the inner struggle has been rather fierce.



I certainly agree with that.



TaiShang said:


> In my opinion, the winning side decided to estrange Russia and bring it on to China in the form of the Pivot. With Russia on the board or not, I believe China had already been decided as the new enemy. The mistake they made included taking Russia lightly. And China has proven to be an able international actor. None of the neo-liberal and neo-realist postulations by US political scientists have come about.



Well US needs enemies. Every year the military should provide "legitimate" reasons to get that 700 billion $ from US tax payers. There are so many defence contractors, and their lobby is one of the strongest in the US because they are working directly with the government. You know where this is going right? I sometimes even think that, some of the technologies that US claims that is "stolen" from their servers were actually "handed over" to certain parties. That wing of US government certainly wants and enemy in order to legitimize every spent penny on trillion dollar projects.( I never say this to undermine the hardwork of thousands of Chinese engineers on defence projects. Don't get me wrong, China is working miracles in military and in economy/technology. )

But they are not the only actors in US politics. As you've said in the paragraph above US is an amalgamation of private and group interests. There are so many groups in US which sustains great interests by doing business with China. That's why I say the US-China relations might be sustained smoothly.



TaiShang said:


> I believe both Middle East and Russia will loom larger in the US foreign policy, and even largely so if a Republican gets the White House. On the Eastern front, on the other, escalation and war effort against DPRK has been stalled by China. The TPP is all over the place. The effort to stop China's island development program has failed and become the new normal. Today, nobody is talking about it except some MA students who want to get published online. China declared an ADIZ and rendered the DiaoyuDai a disputed island (thanks to Japanese recklessness, I should add).



Sorry but you're wrong on this one. Let's go back to 90's. Everyone in Washington was talking about the ME. Of course there was the occasional "China Rising" publicity but the main topic was the ME. In 2000's Russia started to grasp some public attention. But starting from 2010's it became a standart question in US public that "What will we do with China?". I mean, there are primaries right now and every presidential candidate was asked about how would they deal with China if they were elected. I don't recall such a phenomenon in 90's.

However, as you've stated and I partially agreed with you that, policy planners might even planning for this in 90's after the collapse of the USSR or even before. But still China saving the Russians story grasped a lot of attention and it was clearly what was wanted for so long by "some" guys in Washington. All of the actions above that you enlisted are the very bold actions that China avoided in the past. Do you think is it a coincidence that just after Xi's rise to power in 2012 the disputed Diayou islands were nationalized by Japan? They were private property and both sides (China and Japan) were simply checking that status quo.

China is rising up, I don't have daoubt about that. With that power China makes bold actions. That's also great. However just to be sure that those bold actions are made in the situations that were not staged in an office in Washington. China can very well be an actor of a social engineering policy in US. As you know such things evolve into mass hysteria pretty quick in US public opinion. Even a desert nation which has not even a national identity (Iraq) was shown as the next big "enemy" to US public. Afterwards here comes the people from Lockheed Martin justifies the "barely" working F-35 project, and bills a trillion dollars to US tax payers.



TaiShang said:


> But the trade relations with the US has been just as good. And geopolitical struggle has always been on the agenda. The Taiwan Straits Crisis took place in 1996. They bombed our embassy in Belgrade. The spy-plane accident in the 2000s. So, there has always been a struggle while China made business connections with all over the world. The balancing is in fact stronger these days as the US declines as the representative of the West. Now the UK and Germany can jump onto the AIIB wagon despite the US explicitly says the otherwise. And I cannot think of a better "East-West integration" program than the One-Belt, One-Road program, which has been announced in 2013. I agree that China will have to take more assertive posture but I do not see China being pushed to choose between East or West. China is just too big to choose. It embraces all



Yeah there is an economic balance between East and West. But I was talking about political balance. Conjecture after the Sino-Soviet split and today are not the same. And the paradigm shift is visible. China's policy is aligning more and more with the East as China makes those bold moves.

US-EU problems are not because, EU wants to be politically close to China. Because unlike US, EU rejects to struggle with the East. EU rejects the struggle because their economy are not addicted to war/weapon economy as the case of the US. They clearly see China as the "Eastern Pole" especially after saving Russia, but they don't want to struggle like US. They say the world is enough for every people/ideolohy/policy except for the ones that wants to destroy others. Since China is a market economy, they just want to partner up and make business with you guys. That's why UK, Germany and some other European countries joined AIIB. 



TaiShang said:


> That I would strongly disagree with. Especially if influencing US politics means hiring some lobby agency (probably, Jewish?) in Washington (I guess Turkey has done that) and try to influence decision making in the Congress.
> 
> Buying US politics is for Armenian diaspora, Israeli lobbyists, Arab oil sheikhs, or Turkish government who wants to fight Nancy Pelossi in Congress. That's just un-great powerish.



I didn't mean that. I just meant an organized Chinese diaspora in US, fostered by Chinese multinational companies which operates in US like Huawei. Chinese diaspora can build it's own lobby, they wouldn't need to hire jewish lobby.



TaiShang said:


> A great power like China would not resort to such tactics. For once, when it comes to China, the US is not that almighty. If China does not like something it vetoes (if it is on the UNSC) like it did two times with respect to Syria, or simply says 'no,' like it did with island development in SCS or ADIZ in ECS.



A great power like China utilizes every possible resource in it's hand to face with it's adversary in a position that only favors itself. Disrupt the US public opinion and US is not functional. Tell people that there is no reason to fight with China and people would be protesting their own governments to stop. It happened in Vietnam. Why need war, if you can take over peacefully? You should read Sun Tzu. 



TaiShang said:


> China, in this sense, does not jump on any bandwagon, be it Russian or US. The relationship with Russia is one of the equals. We are not obliged to do anything just for the sake of being a partner (this is unlike NATO which obliges the UK to fight alongside the US in the Middle East even when the general public does not want so). The SCO is not a NATO. China's foreign policy is not formulated in the conventional hard alliance or hub-and-spokes way.



Relationship with Russia are not among equals. China has the upper hand. Because China has the future.

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## Whazzup

TaiShang said:


> That's an Indian right there no matter how much one tries to hide. From their China fixation, it is so easy to spot them even when they do false flagging. An Indian eventually becomes an Indian.



I have never seen him posting anything on Indian matters doubt he's Indian and yes he is wrong about us being a pole ain't gonna happen soon.

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## haviZsultan

Well we Pakistanis are vouching for an Asian country like China to outstrip America. It would be in our interests and we are sure China would keep Pakistan in mind.

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## anon45

Zsari said:


> Yugoslavia?


Kosovo isn't part of NATO?



jackhammer2 said:


> I have never seen him posting anything on Indian matters doubt he's Indian and yes he is wrong about us being a pole ain't gonna happen soon.


well I guess i'll take your word for it, I was pretty much only focusing on 'hard' statistics such as geographic size and population, I know little about Indian politics. Likewise with Brazil.

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## Whazzup

anon45 said:


> well I guess i'll take your word for it, I was pretty much only focusing on 'hard' statistics such as geographic size and population, I know little about Indian politics. Likewise with Brazil.


Sir they are right about us I mean India has great human resource and we using it to our advantage too plus our diplomacy gets us alot of business and investment but Infrastucture is where we lack big time yes we have investment but delays and poor planing is not letting us achieve much plus there is also problem in domestic policies which hinter our land acquisition for infrastructure works . Without proper infrastructure India ain't going anywhere .There are other problems like corruption but lets leave it as this ain't topic here.


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## Post Colonnial

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well it's true.
> 
> Similar to the Cold War, there are 3 main poles. USA, Russia, and China (and the allies of all three).
> 
> In a system with 3 poles, the idea is to get 2 of them together in order to gain the advantage.
> 
> USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.
> 
> But now, the Russians won't forget these sanctions for a 100 years. The USA has forever turned Russia into their enemy. An enemy with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.




nonsense. China is crumbling and the current 10% fall hasn't even scratched the surface of the 26T writeoff Bloomberg is expecting. Russia is barely making payroll and with the oil crash, even Putin has gone silent - they are bleeding with each barrel! China will outright collapse but for walmart supply contracts


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## Zsari

anon45 said:


> Kosovo isn't part of NATO?


 
Kosovo? Kosovo was part of Serbia, the breakup of Yugoslavia however is far more than just Kosovo.


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## gambit

If you rely only on this forum for news, you would think that China is supreme global power and the US is a crumbling mess.

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## ArsalanKhan21

TaiShang said:


> ...... At the moment both countries appear to be natural born allies, ....



Russian empire have defeated China in 18-19th centuries and annexed Chinese territory. There will be conflict between the two in the future. They are allies at the moment against common adversaries.

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## opruh

anon45 said:


> Russia can't really be considered a typical regional player as you say, because its sheer geographical size precludes it.
> That said it is the weakest of the poles economically and soft power wise, the others being US, EU, and China.
> 
> potential emerging poles being Brazil and India.
> 
> I wouldn't call Russia's location strategic, it's size is as much a curse as it is a benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is increasingly likely is, short of a stunning turnaround in Russian foreign policy, Russia will be beholden to the pole of China economically, in time becoming a secondary power to it as China holds more sway over the Russian economy, and Russia has nowhere else to turn.
> 
> 
> An ascendant India could change this.


EU is not that united, they should collapse in the near future while India will forever be behind. In short there are only three powers, USA, China and Russia. The team with the two powers in it will simply win hence good news for China and Russia.



gambit said:


> If you rely only on this forum for news, you would think that China is supreme global power and the US is a crumbling mess.


US is already crumbling.

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## opruh

TaiShang said:


> US stocks plunge in early trading after Chinese stock rout - The San Francisco Examiner
> 
> ***
> 
> Comment:
> 
> Is this a good thing or a bad thing? My answer is: "it depends on who you are, and what your outlook and bearings are, and where you see your goals in financial planning are."
> 
> For the stock gamblers, short-term speculators, and those looking at "churning" and flipping stocks, these are bad times.
> 
> For the China-bashing, Chinese-demonizing US investors, i.e. those who look at China purely as a casino, and not interested in long-term China, but only in pure profits, short-term, and nothing else, *this is the time to panic and flee.*
> 
> But those of us who have followed China and love its governance and model of economic planning look at China's economic correction, as seen through the Shanghai and Shenzhen stock market rout, the shift from an export-based economy to a domestic-consumer-services based economy, with a re-direction into the new tech economy that is information-knowledge-based, in the e-commerce trajectory that is dramatically different from the mega-malls, bricks and mortar retailing that China's heady urban bling-bling economy... think that this is a correction and overhaul that is long overdue and must be made, with lots of pains and impact upon a privileged, albeit increasingly over-exuberant, and hyper-stimulated sector within China, who have lost all sense of proportionality nor grasp what China's "model of socialism with Chinese characteristics" is all about.
> 
> True, China's domestic economy, which has fueled the demand for global natural resources, and construction materials, such as cement, steel, fossil fuel, minerals, chemicals, particularly from those countries which have heavily depended on China as an export market for their resources, such as Australia, Brazil, the U.S., Canada, et al, are being impacted by China's economic correction, with a slowdown in imports of raw materials.
> 
> It is to be expected.
> 
> All in all, a 5% to 7% GDP growth is not bad for China, and this correction is a reflection of China's economic decision to shift away from an overheated, heady capitalist model of growth, and replacing it with a more balanced growth model that refocuses on social-economic priorities which take care of the vast masses of working Chinese who are not the urban elite, the compradores, and those weaned on export-driven manufacturing.
> 
> It is time to re-calibrate and look at a more rational China economic growth model that factors in a more equitable distribution of the wealth, more holistic health care, more sensible housing policies, rather than a hyper-speculative feverish frenzy, cleaner air, cleaner water, less traffic gridlock, a shift away from private automobile obsession, more environmental sustainable growth, better quality of life, a more socially responsible intelligentsia who are not consumed by "fa-jai" (wealth pursuit) as the end-all-and-be-all. And yes, better schools and education which is not consumed by "chu-guo liu xueh" and "western-moon worshipping" and US fellowships and scholarships to study abroad.
> 
> This alleged exodus of "panic" or "flight" money is to be expected. But China is not a sinking ship, the Titanic.
> 
> China is merely cleaning up and cleansing its big ship of rodents, vectors, rats, maggots, and the socially-reckless, ethically-irresponsible busisnessmen, their corrupt officials who back up their cronyistic business practices, and the foreign-western-US carpet baggers and hustlers.
> 
> *For these folks, China is not a good place to be at this time.*
> 
> *Welcome to the new ride in China's new "Belt and Road" trajectory. It is not for those who are in it purely for a quick ride and fast profits.*
> 
> *China is not for everyone.* Specially if you are a hustler, a stock casino gambler, and someone who is disinterested in "socialism with Chinese characteristics."
> 
> Edward Liu
> 
> @tranquilium , @Keel , @terranMarine , @AndrewJin , @opruh , @Shotgunner51


When China sneezes, usa catches cold.


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## Post Colonnial

one has to really wonder what these guys are inhaling. China needs a near 10% growth rate to service the nearly $30T debt bubble they have built up just in the past decade (look up Cinda's default for example and how CCB was forced to extend the bonds by 10 years when Cinda defaulted). This is not even considering the eventual write downs that are, according to People's Daily, $6T and according to non-governmental estimates likely much higher.

Russia is living pay check to pay check with its ONLY export oil having been shattered.

These are two even thinking of themselves in the same class of US is laughable.


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## Luca1

Post Colonnial said:


> nonsense. China is crumbling and the current 10% fall hasn't even scratched the surface of the 26T writeoff Bloomberg is expecting. Russia is barely making payroll and with the oil crash, even Putin has gone silent - they are bleeding with each barrel! China will outright collapse but for walmart supply contracts



China is not collapsing. And you are not Gordon Chang. China is not where U.S. Is at now. But it's the one with potential. India,however, will split into many smaller countries like how it historically exists.

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## Post Colonnial

Luca1 said:


> China is not collapsing. And you are not Gordon Chang. China is not where U.S. Is at now. But it's the one with potential. India,however, will split into many smaller countries like how it historically exists.


you obviously do not read economic analysis. The chinese debt trap was predicted as early as 2009 when it started assuming alarming proportion. When Cinda could not repay its loan on due, the CCB was forced by the Chinese gvt to extend the loan by 10 years! And that is a drop in the ocean. 

Sure China has potential but they will realize it ONLY after a revolution that throws away current form of communist rule and let people use their brains.

As to India splitting, again you obviously forget that after so many decades, the country just elected a party with absolute majority. No coalition, no marriages of convenience etc. Does that sound like a country splitting or uniting? Frankly India is showing how democracy is done in spite of abject poverty. No wonder it makes certain people make foaming statements such as yours!

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## XiangLong

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Well it's true.
> 
> USA missed a big chance, they could have courted Russia to be at least neutral to their cause.



Yeah, having Russia to act as cannon fodder... Uhm... I mean ''ally'' against China and have both Russia and China destroy each other, was and still is the wet dream of many Americans like the late Tom Clancy.

I would never forget the ridiculous scenario in ''The Bear and The Dragon'' in which China, after a series of equally ridiculous precedents, started an all-out war with Russia by invading Siberia! After which Tom Clancy's 'MURICA comes to rescue the ''helpless'' Russians by admitting Russia into NATO, and while just only US naval and air bombings seem to make the situation desperate enough for China to (attempt to) start an all-out nuclear war against BOTH Russia and the US! Meanwhile, a single CIA-run website with CNN coverage of the war and some drone footage, manages to spur a Chinese student revolution, in which some ''reformist'' eventually takes over, arrest the politburo, and pave the way for China to ''democracy''. Oh and get this jewel in this entire story... A NATO Apache helicopter manages to shoot down one of the Chinese ICBMs in mid-flight!

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## Dragon4

Luca1 said:


> China is not collapsing. And you are not Gordon Chang. China is not where U.S. Is at now. But it's the one with potential. India,however, will split into many smaller countries like how it historically exists.


tnx for the joke in the last


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## opruh

xesy said:


> Seriously, who gonna believe it. If the drill is not to flex muscles against US and the West, then who China and Russia show off to? Alien?


Paranoid troll spotted.

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## xesy

Just trying to keep the thread alive. I tried hard to make it look like I care.


opruh said:


> Paranoid troll spotted.


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## TaiShang

xesy said:


> Just trying to keep the thread alive. I tried hard to make it look like I care.



In fact you are reasonable to talk. Good to exchange ideas. Hope you were not mocking and pretending all this time.



opruh said:


> Paranoid troll spotted.



Maybe that reflects a national psyche, bro. We got to understand them and develop policies accordingly. 

Maybe there is a miscommunication between our respective countries.


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## xesy

TaiShang said:


> In fact you are reasonable to talk. Good to exchange ideas. Hope you were not mocking and pretending all this time.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that reflects a national psyche, bro. We got to understand them and develop policies accordingly.
> 
> Maybe there is a miscommunication between our respective countries.


Alright this is not going to work for me. See you in other threads.


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## TaiShang

Thank you for your very comprehensive analysis. It is a privilege for me to engage in such constructive and intellectual discourse. 



Lure said:


> There is a problem here. Actions speak louder than words. I agree with you that China did not make any bold statements about the Crimera issue or Ukraine problem in general, but counteracted against the US sanctions agains Russia which was implemented just because of the Ukraine problem. Hence China taken away the tool to "punish" Russia from USA's hands. Let me ask you something, if you were a US policy maker, would you go on punishing Russia in that conjecture? Or would you pick on the country that keeps Russia "alive" in your next problem with them?



I agree with these observations. It is definitely correct that China stood by Russia through economic action although, verbally it maintained the usual rhetoric. Military is of course out of question. Certainly, actions speak louder than words, and, in that, US decision makers must have written off China as one of bear-friendly. But from international law perspective, China has never been obliged to assist the US sanctions against Russia. For that, they need to pass a resolution at the UNSC. In that sense, US-EU move to punish Russia is still a unilateral action, not multilateral or international.

China is important for Russia, but it is not the only important country, by the way. Therefore, it would still be difficult for the US to single out China as the sole savior of Russia -- even if we admit Russia does need a savior.





In 2014:

_1. China Total trade with China reached $52 billion - 11% of all Russian trade. This is 4.6% higher than last year. China and Russia have set themselves a target of $200 billion annually by 2020. They are expected to beat that easily after announcing deals this year worth over a trillion dollars. 

2. Netherlands
Total trade with Netherlands reached $45 billion representing 9.6% of all Russian trade. This is 0.1% lower than last year. Historically Netherlands has been Russia's largest European trading partner due to a very strong bilateral investment treaty. 

3. Germany 
Total trade with Germany reached $41 billion representing 8.7% of all Russian trade. This is 0.2% lower than last year. German companies such as Siemens are very large exporters as machinery is the most important German export component to Russia. 

4. Italy
Total trade with Italy reached $30 billion representing 6.4% of all Russian trade. This is 2.2% lower than last year. Italian-Russian trade relations have historically been very good. Should South Stream come to fruition trade will rise further. _



Lure said:


> Well US needs enemies. Every year the military should provide "legitimate" reasons to get that 700 billion $ from US tax payers. There are so many defence contractors, and their lobby is one of the strongest in the US because they are working directly with the government. You know where this is going right? I sometimes even think that, some of the technologies that US claims that is "stolen" from their servers were actually "handed over" to certain parties. That wing of US government certainly wants and enemy in order to legitimize every spent penny on trillion dollar projects.( I never say this to undermine the hardwork of thousands of Chinese engineers on defence projects. Don't get me wrong, China is working miracles in military and in economy/technology. )



That's a very interesting observation which brings a whole new dimension to the debate. It would not be impossible entirely. What I agree 100% is that the US has constantly been in search of an enemy and China appears to be the next one although I am not sure how they would be able to justify the losses from such potential confrontation given that even the war on terror and a limited number of human loss on part of the US created such strong anti-war movements.



Lure said:


> Sorry but you're wrong on this one. Let's go back to 90's. Everyone in Washington was talking about the ME. Of course there was the occasional "China Rising" publicity but the main topic was the ME. In 2000's Russia started to grasp some public attention. But starting from 2010's it became a standart question in US public that "What will we do with China?". I mean, there are primaries right now and every presidential candidate was asked about how would they deal with China if they were elected. I don't recall such a phenomenon in 90's.



Don't you think this is an expected historical phenomenon? The China of 1990s was a lot different from the China of 2010. Accordingly, US official viewpoint has also changed. I believe that those decision makers, too, are susceptible to historical developments. This, however, does not rule out the fact that the lack of Middle East in early and mid-Obama presidency has been recently replaced by a stronger re-focus on the region. I believe these policy postures are ever changing. I agree that China looms large and they will squeeze every drop of juice from China threat theory, but, that is in a sense unavoidable whether China stands by Russia or entirely abondanes it.



Lure said:


> China is rising up, I don't have daoubt about that. With that power China makes bold actions. That's also great. However just to be sure that those bold actions are made in the situations that were not staged in an office in Washington. China can very well be an actor of a social engineering policy in US. As you know such things evolve into mass hysteria pretty quick in US public opinion. Even a desert nation which has not even a national identity (Iraq) was shown as the next big "enemy" to US public. Afterwards here comes the people from Lockheed Martin justifies the "barely" working F-35 project, and bills a trillion dollars to US tax payers.



That's also an interesting observation. There must be a certain action-reaction pattern in inter-state relations. All I can say here is that just as US moves (pre-planned/staged or not) create certain reaction on part of China, the vice versa might be true, as well. It then all comes down to the ability of strategy-making.



Lure said:


> Yeah there is an economic balance between East and West. But I was talking about political balance. Conjecture after the Sino-Soviet split and today are not the same. And the paradigm shift is visible. China's policy is aligning more and more with the East as China makes those bold moves.



I see China's policy to be less US-centric and more Eurasia-centric over the years. It is not really entirely an Asian/Eastern shift. And Europe is not a monolithic entity. There are eastern areas that are still pretty much under Russia's influence. And there is Africa and Latin America. I certainly agree that China is decoupling from the US-led hardcore Western alliance, but, its face is turned toward a larger landmass than the East.



Lure said:


> I didn't mean that. I just meant an organized Chinese diaspora in US, fostered by Chinese multinational companies which operates in US like Huawei. Chinese diaspora can build it's own lobby, they wouldn't need to hire jewish lobby.



I agree on that. Especially in terms of economic and cultural interests, China's private industries and institutions need to better marketing and PR in the US to win certain members of the Congress or governors and mayors. These people are there to ensure their position and Chinese entities can take advantage of the monied-politics of the US. That's probably something that China lacks miserably.



Lure said:


> A great power like China utilizes every possible resource in it's hand to face with it's adversary in a position that only favors itself. Disrupt the US public opinion and US is not functional. Tell people that there is no reason to fight with China and people would be protesting their own governments to stop. It happened in Vietnam. Why need war, if you can take over peacefully? You should read Sun Tzu.



I agree. I guess I misunderstood the entire "influencing US opinion" argument of yours. I definitely concur that China needs to utilize more secondary power in the form of institutions and companies. Certain steps are being taken and China's diaspora is being engaged more successfully these days. I guess, in that regard, Turkey itself, which has a huge diaspora, can offer some lessons to China. In the face of intense propaganda and demonization, China needs to utilize every available tools to change perceptions and winning battles with minimum cost.



Lure said:


> Relationship with Russia are not among equals. China has the upper hand. Because China has the future.



I would say that future is always a tricky beast. China might be seen to have the upper hand. Still, Russia cannot be underestimated.

By among equals, I did not mean "equals in real power," but equals "in terms of their relationship." The Western concept of alliance is often the stronger having the last say in any grouping. When it comes to China, it is a bit different. Inequality in size/scale/capacity does not always translate into inequality in social relationship. The charter of the AIIB or the SCO's decision making proves. This is actually the Asian way of consensus-based action. That's why China and Russia do not pursue a NATO-like hard alliance. They should, in my opinion, and China must be the final decision maker, but, I think neither leadership thinks the time is ripe for that.

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## Jlaw

opruh said:


> EU is not that united, they should collapse in the near future while India will forever be behind. In short there are only three powers, USA, China and Russia. The team with the two powers in it will simply win hence good news for China and Russia.
> 
> 
> US is already crumbling.


correct that EU is not that united. You take away Germany, than EU is fairly weak. France, UK is pissed off with southern Euro countries pushing illegal aliens into their territory.



XiangLong said:


> Yeah, having Russia to act as cannon fodder... Uhm... I mean ''ally'' against China and have both Russia and China destroy each other, was and still is the wet dream of many Americans like the late Tom Clancy.
> 
> I would never forget the ridiculous scenario in ''The Bear and The Dragon'' in which China, after a series of equally ridiculous precedents, started an all-out war with Russia by invading Siberia! After which Tom Clancy's 'MURICA comes to rescue the ''helpless'' Russians by admitting Russia into NATO, and while just only US naval and air bombings seem to make the situation desperate enough for China to (attempt to) start an all-out nuclear war against BOTH Russia and the US! Meanwhile, a single CIA-run website with CNN coverage of the war and some drone footage, manages to spur a Chinese student revolution, in which some ''reformist'' eventually takes over, arrest the politburo, and pave the way for China to ''democracy''. Oh and get this jewel in this entire story... A NATO Apache helicopter manages to shoot down one of the Chinese ICBMs in mid-flight!


people buy this shit in America. if you want to be rich, write anti China fairytales. it's a 3 trillion per year industry.

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## TaiShang

*Ongoing China-Russia Joint Naval Drills*
By Liu Rong (People's Daily Online) 22:27, August 25, 2015




Photo shows the Chinese Navy fleet taking part in the China-Russia Joint Sea-2015 (II)drill.

The drills, code named Joint Sea-2015 (II), are being held on Aug. 20-28 in the Peter the Great Gulf, waters off the Clerk Cape, and the Sea of Japan.

Themed "Joint maritime transportation protection and joint landing missions", the drill focuses on joint air defense, joint anti-submarine and anti-ship missions, joint defense,joint landing missions and so on.

During the exercises, the two navies will also open their warships for each other to visit and hold various sport and cultural activities as well.

China and Russia are continuing the active phase of their naval drills in the Sea of Japan and the Peter the Great Gulf.

The ’Joint Sea 2015 II’ drills involve 22 vessels, 20 aircraft, 40 armored vehicles and 500 marines from both countries.













This is the second China-Russia naval exercise this year.

The last China-Russia naval drills, Joint Sea-2015 (I), were held in the Mediterranean Sea in May.

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## xunzi

Hand in hand to ensure peace and stability within our hemisphere is always a welcome act.

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## Lure

TaiShang said:


> Thank you for your very comprehensive analysis. It is a privilege for me to engage in such constructive and intellectual discourse.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with these observations. It is definitely correct that China stood by Russia through economic action although, verbally it maintained the usual rhetoric. Military is of course out of question. Certainly, actions speak louder than words, and, in that, US decision makers must have written off China as one of bear-friendly. But from international law perspective, China has never been obliged to assist the US sanctions against Russia. For that, they need to pass a resolution at the UNSC. In that sense, US-EU move to punish Russia is still a unilateral action, not multilateral or international.
> 
> China is important for Russia, but it is not the only important country, by the way. Therefore, it would still be difficult for the US to single out China as the sole savior of Russia -- even if we admit Russia does need a savior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2014:
> 
> _1. China Total trade with China reached $52 billion - 11% of all Russian trade. This is 4.6% higher than last year. China and Russia have set themselves a target of $200 billion annually by 2020. They are expected to beat that easily after announcing deals this year worth over a trillion dollars.
> 
> 2. Netherlands
> Total trade with Netherlands reached $45 billion representing 9.6% of all Russian trade. This is 0.1% lower than last year. Historically Netherlands has been Russia's largest European trading partner due to a very strong bilateral investment treaty.
> 
> 3. Germany
> Total trade with Germany reached $41 billion representing 8.7% of all Russian trade. This is 0.2% lower than last year. German companies such as Siemens are very large exporters as machinery is the most important German export component to Russia.
> 
> 4. Italy
> Total trade with Italy reached $30 billion representing 6.4% of all Russian trade. This is 2.2% lower than last year. Italian-Russian trade relations have historically been very good. Should South Stream come to fruition trade will rise further. _
> 
> 
> 
> That's a very interesting observation which brings a whole new dimension to the debate. It would not be impossible entirely. What I agree 100% is that the US has constantly been in search of an enemy and China appears to be the next one although I am not sure how they would be able to justify the losses from such potential confrontation given that even the war on terror and a limited number of human loss on part of the US created such strong anti-war movements.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you think this is an expected historical phenomenon? The China of 1990s was a lot different from the China of 2010. Accordingly, US official viewpoint has also changed. I believe that those decision makers, too, are susceptible to historical developments. This, however, does not rule out the fact that the lack of Middle East in early and mid-Obama presidency has been recently replaced by a stronger re-focus on the region. I believe these policy postures are ever changing. I agree that China looms large and they will squeeze every drop of juice from China threat theory, but, that is in a sense unavoidable whether China stands by Russia or entirely abondanes it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's also an interesting observation. There must be a certain action-reaction pattern in inter-state relations. All I can say here is that just as US moves (pre-planned/staged or not) create certain reaction on part of China, the vice versa might be true, as well. It then all comes down to the ability of strategy-making.
> 
> 
> 
> I see China's policy to be less US-centric and more Eurasia-centric over the years. It is not really entirely an Asian/Eastern shift. And Europe is not a monolithic entity. There are eastern areas that are still pretty much under Russia's influence. And there is Africa and Latin America. I certainly agree that China is decoupling from the US-led hardcore Western alliance, but, its face is turned toward a larger landmass than the East.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree on that. Especially in terms of economic and cultural interests, China's private industries and institutions need to better marketing and PR in the US to win certain members of the Congress or governors and mayors. These people are there to ensure their position and Chinese entities can take advantage of the monied-politics of the US. That's probably something that China lacks miserably.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I guess I misunderstood the entire "influencing US opinion" argument of yours. I definitely concur that China needs to utilize more secondary power in the form of institutions and companies. Certain steps are being taken and China's diaspora is being engaged more successfully these days. I guess, in that regard, Turkey itself, which has a huge diaspora, can offer some lessons to China. In the face of intense propaganda and demonization, China needs to utilize every available tools to change perceptions and winning battles with minimum cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that future is always a tricky beast. China might be seen to have the upper hand. Still, Russia cannot be underestimated.
> 
> By among equals, I did not mean "equals in real power," but equals "in terms of their relationship." The Western concept of alliance is often the stronger having the last say in any grouping. When it comes to China, it is a bit different. Inequality in size/scale/capacity does not always translate into inequality in social relationship. The charter of the AIIB or the SCO's decision making proves. This is actually the Asian way of consensus-based action. That's why China and Russia do not pursue a NATO-like hard alliance. They should, in my opinion, and China must be the final decision maker, but, I think neither leadership thinks the time is ripe for that.



Hey thanks a lot for your analysis as well. It's a very nice read and we've reached on a common ground on most of the topics. The privilege is mine to engage in such an intellectual discourse.

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## senheiser

devoloping countries need to stick together. There is huge conspiracy going on with falling Oil prices and Chinese Stocks against Russia and China
@TaiShang @Chinese-Dragon @Chinese-Dragon

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## Economic superpower

Post Colonnial said:


> you obviously do not read economic analysis. The chinese debt trap was predicted as early as 2009 when it started assuming alarming proportion. When Cinda could not repay its loan on due, the CCB was forced by the Chinese gvt to extend the loan by 10 years! And that is a drop in the ocean.
> 
> Sure China has potential but they will realize it ONLY after a revolution that throws away current form of communist rule and let people use their brains.
> 
> As to India splitting, again you obviously forget that after so many decades, the country just elected a party with absolute majority. No coalition, no marriages of convenience etc. Does that sound like a country splitting or uniting? Frankly India is showing how democracy is done in spite of abject poverty. No wonder it makes certain people make foaming statements such as yours!



India is something China is striving NOT to become.

A country that has a caste system, rape epidemic, mass starvation, children dying of malnutrition, no sanitation should be considered a failed state. India is the country that comes closest to many failed states in Africa.

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## TaiShang

The joint military drills now being conducted by China and Russia mark the first time PLA Navy units have participated in military exercises in the Sea of Japan.






China, Russia make largest-ever joint landing

The People's Liberation Army's Navy units are participating in military exercises in the Sea of Japan for the first time, as China and Russia perform joint naval drills.

The two countries conducted an air-sea joint exercise Tuesday off Clerk Cape in the Peter the Great Gulf, the largest gulf in the Sea of Japan. At 10 a.m. a fleet headed to waters off the Clerk Cape.






_Joint military drills between China and Russia mark the first time for the People's Liberation Army's Navy units to participate in military exercises in the Sea of Japan._

The mixed formation includes guided missile cruisers, destroyers and landing ships from both China and Russia.

Three shipboard helicopters and eight fighter jets and attackers, are conducting simulated strikes on the highlands in the landing area. 

Two guided missile cruisers are also firing on the island.

After several rounds of attacks, a group of marines and armored vehicles reached the beach head from aircraft and ships.

The landing exercise was the Chinese navy’s first abroad.

"The exercise will improve our troops' capabilities of landing from the deep sea, and in strange sea areas and airspace. It will also improve our troops' capabilities for joint operations and landing with the Russian navy," said Li Xiangdong, deputy head, Landing Ship Detachment of South China Sea Fleet. 

The drill was the second China-Russia naval exercise this year and its scale was much larger than the one in the Mediterranean Sea.

"The first drill this year did not have marines or naval air forces. This time, the tasks are more complicated, such as facing large-scale attacks from the sea and against opponents with high technology at sea," said Capt. Konstantin Sivkov, VP, Academy of Geopolitical Problems. 

Data from the Russian Defense Ministry shows that 22 vessels, about 20 jets and helicopters, more than 500 marines, and 40 pieces of equipment were included in Tuesday's landing drill. 

But as Russian Captain Sivkov said, the drill is not a simple show of naval strength and instead indicates the two countries' resolution in safeguarding regional peace and stability.

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## Beidou2020

This will be the start of frequent military exercises China has with other countries.

China is not just building a massive military, its willing to show its capabilities too.

The haters better get used to seeing China doing these activities a whole lot more.

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## bdslph

how come it is a threat 
may be american thinking they will take over alaska hahaha


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## TaiShang

bdslph said:


> how come it is a threat
> may be american thinking they will take over alaska hahaha



Paranoia has no limits, apparently.

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## Post Colonnial

Economic superpower said:


> India is something China is striving NOT to become.
> 
> A country that has a caste system, rape epidemic, mass starvation, children dying of malnutrition, no sanitation should be considered a failed state. India is the country that comes closest to many failed states in Africa.



China has all these malaise in worse proportions, the central party apparatus simply hides all the info, until they no longer can. Case in point - the debt bubble that is currently bursting! Even here, they tried to hide the bursting bubble by manipulating the market but it became too much! 

Sorry pal, nice try no cigar!


----------



## IR-TR

Post Colonnial said:


> China has all these malaise in worse proportions, the central party apparatus simply hides all the info, until they no longer can. Case in point - the debt bubble that is currently bursting! Even here, they tried to hide the bursting bubble by manipulating the market but it became too much!
> 
> Sorry pal, nice try no cigar!



Why don't you make sure even your biggest and most prosperous cities have sewage and drinking water, then complain about China.

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

ebony&ivory said:


> As soon as our Zubr fleet reaches 100 to 200, we are ready to directly amphibious assault Tokyo from Tokyo Bay. Our tanks will roll into Shinto shrines, Tokyo University, government building and office towers of the keiretsu!



You are suspiciously fake Chinese.

Whats your game here boy?

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## Post Colonnial

IR-TR said:


> Why don't you make sure even your biggest and most prosperous cities have sewage and drinking water, then complain about China.



it is not one or the other. I want India to improve and I want China to improve as well.


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## Jlaw

Economic superpower said:


> India is something China is striving NOT to become.
> 
> A country that has a caste system, rape epidemic, mass starvation, children dying of malnutrition, no sanitation should be considered a failed state. India is the country that comes closest to many failed states in Africa.


Most Africa countries are doing a lot better. In their defense, African countries were looted and people were put in slavery. India have no excuses. They were ruled by British who gave them a legal system, technology and protection.

No more excuses from the southern superpower.

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## My-Analogous

Pangu said:


> Well, if only they've read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, lol.



Yeah new romance of the three friendly Nations (Pakistan, China and Russia) against US

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## TaiShang

*China Newspaper Condemns US Fears of Russia Ties*


ASIA & PACIFIC
27.08.2015

*China's ruling party newspaper countered the idea that the country's growing partnership with Russia presents a "nightmare" to the United States, saying that the US seeks to "shape an unfair global order."*

The newspaper of China's ruling Communist Party, People's Daily, condemned the idea that China and Russia's growing ties present a "nightmare" to the United States, as claimed in an article in The National Interest.

The article, authored by senior figures at the Atlantic Council, a think tank, claims that the new partnership between Russia and China allows the countries "the chance to reshape the global order to their liking." The article admitted that "no single nation can singularly shape international outcomes," but called on the US to act as a "first among equals."

"The US regards itself as the leader of the world, which clearly reveals its mentality of hegemony. It also holds that hegemony contributes to stability, but this is not the fact," People's Daily countered.

Four Reasons Why the New China-Russia Exercises Are Extraordinary

The newspaper added that Russia and China seek to improve the global order rather than ruin it. It cited the example of the US-initiated Iraq War, which brought instability to the Middle East as an example of the US-led global order.


People's Daily also called on the US to never seek confrontation and conflicts. Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi echoed this attitude in anarticle published on August 23 in People's Daily and Rossiyskaya Gazeta.

"China and Russia, as victor-countries in World War II, founding UN members and permanent members of its Security Council, are important constructive forces contributing to the formation of a multi-polar world," Wang Yi wrote.

The ruling party newspaper added that US dominance has damaged international security and development, concluding that "any hopeful US attempt to overthrow other countries' regimes must be thwarted."

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## TaiShang

*Scary Duo: US in Fear of Russia, China to Crush on Its Stealth Aircraft*

16:36 27.08.2015(updated 16:38 27.08.2015) Get short URL
*
The US media is concerned that Russia and China seem to be developing a new generation of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), capable of “negating America’s advantages in stealth aircraft.”*

The assumption is made on the basis of a report published on Flightglobal, a website related to the aviation and aerospace industries.

*It says that “Russia could be working on a low-observable, F-35-hunting unmanned air vehicle that uses deeply-integrated electronic warfare systems to stay hidden from radar. The tip-off comes from electronic systems producer KRET, which has a curious UAV model on display at the MAKS air show in Moscow.”

It cites the company’s first deputy chief executive officer Vladimir Mikheev as describing the vehicle as an advanced military UAV designed to detect stealth aircraft in the same vein as China’s ambitious “Divine Eagle” project.*

Such aircraft, the website says, would detect hard-to-absorb US combat aircraft using X-band and UHF radars, specifically the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35, and Northrop Grumman B-2. Airborne surveillance is just one of the UAV’s capabilities.

Mikheev says KRET is providing a deeply-integrated electronic warfare system that not only provides a protective electromagnetic sphere around the aircraft to counter air-to-air missiles, but also cloaks it from radars.

The unmanned aircraft closely resembles Northrop’s carrier-based X-47B demonstrator, but adds two lift fans on each wing and vertical stabilizers.

Mikheev says the UAV’s avionics, radar and electronic warfare systems are derived from those being produced for the Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighter and the Kamov Ka-50 attack helicopter.

The US media therefore recalled what the Chinese Divine Eagle project is all about.

“The Divine Eagle, perhaps China's most ambitious drone design. Planned to hunt stealth planes from afar, it could turn out to be not just the world's largest drone, but one of the most important to the future of war,” the website added.


“The timing is notable. Coming shorty after the release of the first Chinese defense White Paper calling for Chinese military expeditionary capabilities and high profile Sino-Russian naval exercises, the Divine Eagle is a visual announcement that China's building unique technologies that could change the brewing arms race in the Asia Pacific.”

The website also acknowledged that The Divine Eagle is planned to carry multiple Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars, of the AMTI, SAR and GMTI varities. Airborne Moving Target Indicator (AMTI) radar types are used to track airborne targets, like enemy fighters and cruise missiles. Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) provides high resolution of slow moving ground vehicles and enemy bases.


Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) radars are ideal for identifying and tracking ships, such as aircraft carriers. X/UHF band radars, which include the "F-22 killer" JY-26 that debuted at Zhuhai 2014, have raised concerns in the American military that they could track stealth aircraft like the F-35 fighter and B-2 bomber at long ranges.


As a High Altitude, Long Endurance (HALE) UAV, the Divine Eagle would prove incredibly useful in both offensive and defensive operations. Its long range anti-stealth capabilities can be used against both aircraft, like the B-2 bomber, and warships such as the DDG-1000 destroyer. Using the Divine Eagle as a picket, the Chinese air force could quickly intercept stealthy enemy aircraft, missiles and ships well before they come in range of the Mainland. Flying high, the Divine Eagle could also detect anti-ship missile trucks and air defenses on land, in preparation for offensive Chinese activity.

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## TaiShang

*Chinese and Russian navies conduct joint landing drill*
August 27, 2015




The Chinese and Russian navies held a joint beach landing drill in Russia's Peter the Great Gulf on August 25 as part of the ongoing China-Russia Joint Sea-2015 (II) live-fire military exercise. It is the first time for the two sides conduct landing exercises by using transport aircraft, helicopters, amphibious armored vehicles and landing ships together since 2012. (Photo/ People’s Daily Online)




The Chinese and Russian navies held a joint beach landing drill in Russia's Peter the Great Gulf on August 25 as part of the ongoing China-Russia Joint Sea-2015 (II) live-fire military exercise. It is the first time for the two sides conduct landing exercises by using transport aircraft, helicopters, amphibious armored vehicles and landing ships together since 2012. (Photo/ People’s Daily Online)




The Chinese and Russian navies held a joint beach landing drill in Russia's Peter the Great Gulf on August 25 as part of the ongoing China-Russia Joint Sea-2015 (II) live-fire military exercise. It is the first time for the two sides conduct landing exercises by using transport aircraft, helicopters, amphibious armored vehicles and landing ships together since 2012. (Photo/ People’s Daily Online)




The Chinese and Russian navies held a joint beach landing drill in Russia's Peter the Great Gulf on August 25 as part of the ongoing China-Russia Joint Sea-2015 (II) live-fire military exercise. It is the first time for the two sides conduct landing exercises by using transport aircraft, helicopters, amphibious armored vehicles and landing ships together since 2012. (Photo/ People’s Daily Online)






The Chinese and Russian navies held a joint beach landing drill in Russia's Peter the Great Gulf on August 25 as part of the ongoing China-Russia Joint Sea-2015 (II) live-fire military exercise. It is the first time for the two sides conduct landing exercises by using transport aircraft, helicopters, amphibious armored vehicles and landing ships together since 2012. (Photo/ People’s Daily Online)

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## TaiShang

*Russia and China are once again in the spotlight of the US media: let’s have a look at what they fear the two will do next.*

Only recently, the US voiced its concern over the possible development by Russia and China of a new generation of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), capable of “negating America’s advantages in stealth aircraft.”

Scary Duo: US in Fear of Russia, China to Crush on Its Stealth Aircraft

Now American media outlets are analyzing whether the two would jointly develop “some of the most sophisticated types of naval vessels on the planet.”

The idea was first raised in a recent piece in the Wall Street Journal. The newspaper alleged that “*since the start of tensions with the West, Russia has touted what it calls a strategic alliance with China, which may develop into plans to build a joint aircraft carrier.”*

The publisher, however, hopes that “a falling ruble and weaker economy has forced the Kremlin to scale back its ambitious plans for a multibillion-dollar military modernization.”

Additionally, it quotes a defense industry official as saying that “China is raising its demands, and wants a controlling stake in the project.”

The magazine the National Interest goes further and gives its own reasons for and against the possible joint project for each of the sides.

China's Official Newspaper Condemns US Fears of Russia Ties

As for Russia, it also hopes that Moscow “simply won’t have the money for such a financially draining endeavor.”

It reasons that “modern aircraft carriers cost billions of dollars to design, test and manufacture. Such a possibility seems silly when one considers that Moscow is struggling to modernize its military with other expensive pieces of hardware in the face of economic sanctions and sagging oil prices.”

China, it alleges, also wouldn’t “want to throw billions of dollars into such a project”, as its economy is “starting to sour”.

Besides, it questions, “why would China place billions of dollars into carriers with Russia or even on its own when it is working to undermine the military utility of such a weapons platform in the first place?”

*However, now that a certain amount of money has been released due to the failed Mistral deal with France, it is still remains to be seen whether such a project can come to life.*

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## sicsheep

The identities of a group of American technical experts who have provided assistance to covert operations by the US government overseas have been compromised as the result of cross-referencing of data from the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) and other recent data breaches, according a _Los Angeles Times_report. The _Times_' Brian Bennet and W. J. Hennigan cited allegations from two US officials speaking under the condition of anonymity that Chinese and Russian intelligence agencies have worked with both private software companies and criminal hacking rings to obtain and analyze data.

William Evanina, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence's National Counterintelligence Executive, confirmed in an interview with the LA Times that data from breaches had "absolutely" been used to unmask US covert agents. Performing data analytics on breach data could tell foreign intelligence agencies "who is an intelligence officer, who travels where, when, who's got financial difficulties, who's got medical issues" and help create a "common picture" of US intelligence operations, he said.

According to the report, the OPM hack and other major data breaches were being merged and analyzed by China in an effort to both ferret out US covert operations—to provide background information for targeted cyber-attacks—and to provide intelligence on individuals who could be targeted for blackmail. And Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) is also using recent data breaches and ties to cybercriminals to target US government employees for cyber-attacks, the unnamed officials claimed.

The OPM data breach may have played a role in the recent attack on the e-mail system of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. According to the _LA Times_ report, e-mails to JCS staffers purporting to be from USAA, a bank and insurance company serving current and former military members, carried links to a Web-based malware implant. Russian hackers mounted a similar attack on the State Department's e-mail system last year.

The Department of Defense is reportedly reviewing data from the Ashley Madison breach to determine if any service members' data was included—data that would make them vulnerable to blackmail, as infidelity and adultery are cause for revocation of security clearances and a violation of military law.

By collaborating with private companies and outside hackers rather than using internal government capabilities to gather data, the Chinese and Russian intelligence communities are able to avoid direct attribution of the attacks to them, officials told the _Times_. That makes it difficult for the US to target them with a response—and it may be why US officials have not directly, publicly implicated the Chinese government in the OPM hack.

China and Russia cross-referencing OPM data, other hacks to out US spies | Ars Technica

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## TaiShang

sicsheep said:


> According to the report, the OPM hack and other major data breaches were being merged and analyzed by China in an effort to both ferret out US covert operations—to provide background information for targeted cyber-attacks—and to provide intelligence on individuals who could be targeted for blackmail. And Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) is also using recent data breaches and ties to cybercriminals to target US government employees for cyber-attacks, the unnamed officials claimed.



President Xi must bring this up when meeting with Obama.

The rogue cyber-criminal must be warned not to engage in state-led cyber attacks against China and Russia.

If the US does not comply, China and Russia must impose sanctions on related US persons and entities.

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## BuddhaPalm

Now China and Russia can compete for best enhanced interrogation technique with live American test subjects! Probably there are some ladies too among these intel agents. Who can get them to squeal first?


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## apiSubmarine

Should China ally with Russia , Is it benefits for both country? I think they both country are strong enough, 
if yes, what are the benefits for Russia and china.


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## terranMarine

should you exist on this planet? what is the benefit for you hanging around on pdf ?

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## Tractor

Apparently not and apparently Chinese pretend to be an ally of Russia or pretend to believe so.
And also it's apparent that in Putin's eyes China is nothing before and little important in present day.Chinese may know well about this.


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## Sanchez

It depends on how much pressure US+EU put on Russia. Russia could always be China's strategic partner against unilateral hegemonic power of the world.


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## Tractor

Sanchez said:


> It depends on how much pressure US+EU put on Russia. Russia could always be China's strategic partner against unilateral hegemonic power of the world.


Do all Chinese be told that there are so much pressure US+EU put on Russia?
Well done Chinese media.


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## cirr

Let's get this over with as soon as possible。

I long for the day when I can travel HSR all the way from Beijing to London。

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## TaiShang

cirr said:


> Let's get this over with as soon as possible。
> 
> I long for the day when I can travel HSR all the way from Beijing to London。



Not sure about London (too boring for me), but it would be super cool to be able to travel from Beijing all the way to Moscow.

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

American and Japanese greatest nightmare=China,Korean,Russia,Europe and Middle East getting closer and closer by trading and culture communication,this plan is called "The new silk road"

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## Beidou2020

Putin is the man. I love that guy.

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> Putin is the man. I love that guy.



Putin is the best thing that happened to Russia since the dissolution. 

China-Russia partnership is the nightmare of the US.

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## yusheng

then Russia can be set free when China and the west struggle for mastering oil and gas price,
2015 will be the turning point of the west financial hegemony.

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## cirr

The West (the EU now and the US later) needs to deal with the refugee problem that is increasingly getting out of hand。

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## TaiShang

TaiShang said:


> Among the deals, Russia's second-biggest gas producer Novatek signed a framework agreement for China's Silk Road Fund to obtain a 9.9 percent stake in its Yamal liquefied natural gas project, the company said in a statement.



Silk Road Fund put in use. 



cirr said:


> The West (the EU now and the US later) needs to deal with the refugee problem that is increasingly getting out of hand。



That's really terrible. The US has just left a ticking bomb on the EU's lap by pulling them into the Syrian trap. 

The US has been part and parcel of the terrorism and civil war inside Syria (directly and through pawns) but, as usual, it will be the others to bear the brunt because, yada!, the US is geographically protected.

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## TaiShang

*Energy goes east as Russia and China seal multibillion dollar deals in Beijing*
Published time: 3 Sep, 2015 13:50 Edited time: 3 Sep, 2015 14:02






Chinese President Xi Jinping (R, back) attends a signing ceremony with Russian President Vladimir Putin (L, back) at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, China September 3, 2015. © Parker Song / Reuters

Russia’s Gazprom and CNPC of China have signed a memorandum on a third project as part of their strategic cooperation over the next five years. The resource base for gas supplies to China from the Russian Far East will be Sakhalin, said Gazprom CEO Aleksey Miller, adding that the volume and timing of the new route will be defined later. The eastern and western (aka Power of Siberia and Power of Siberia-2) routes are in progress.





Welding the joint at the ceremony marking the joining of the first link in the Power of Siberia main gas pipeline attended by Russian President Vladimir Putin, held at Namsky Highway near Us Khatyn village. © Aleksey Nikolskyi / RIA Novosti

Russian oil major Rosneft has advanced its deal to acquire a 30 percent stake in China’s ChemChina Petrochemical (CCPC)._“The document signed in Beijing defines a pre-agreed price, transaction structure and corporate governance issues,”_ said Rosneft.

Rosneft has also agreed to increase oil supplies to Chinese petrochemical plants to four million tons a year, said CEO Igor Sechin.

Overall, Rosneft has signed agreements with China worth a potential $30 billion, thus strengthening the established cooperation even further, he added.

*READ MORE: Russia-China relations at ‘historic peak’ despite ‘illegitimate Western restrictions’ - Putin*

The China Development Bank Corporation is ready to provide $600 million to Russia’s second-biggest cell phone operator, MegaFon. The money will be spent on equipment and services from Huawei, the Shenzhen-based multinational networking and telecommunications equipment and services company.

Russian Post and China Post have signed an agreement intended to strengthen cooperation and development of cross-border online trade, improving delivery of mail by railway -both by freight and passenger trains.





Andrey Karginov of Russia drives his Kamaz truck during the 10th stage of the Dakar Rally 2014 from Iquique to Antofagasta January 15, 2014. © Franck Fife / Reuters

*The Russian truck producer KAMAZ and Chinese Hawtai Motor Group have signed an agreement to establish a joint venture*. It is reported that Hawtai production in Russia will be organized on the premises of KAMAZ, while China will build a new plant for the production of KAMAZ trucks.

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## TaiShang

China and Russia agree on the joint development of oil fields

Rosneft and China Petrochemical Corporation (Sinopec) signed the Heads of Agreement on cooperation within the proposed joint development of Russkoye and Yurubcheno-Tokhomskoye fields. The document was signed by the Chairman of Rosneft Management Board Igor Sechin and the Chairman of China Petrochemical Wang Yupu during the visit of the Russian President Vladimir Putin to Beijing and in presence of the President of People's Republic of China Xi Jinping.

Under the agreement, Sinopec Group has the right to acquire a 49% stake in East Siberian Oil and Gas Company (ESOGC) and Tyumenneftegaz, that hold the exploration licenses for Russkoye and Yurubcheno-Tokhomskoye fields respectively.

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## Indika

TaiShang said:


> pit India against China


Why would US spend its effort on pitting india against china? Isnt china sided with pakistan and encouraging terrorist attacks in india.


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## Beidou2020

eyeswideshut said:


> Why would US spend its effort on pitting india against china? Isnt china sided with pakistan and encouraging terrorist attacks in india.



I believe Pakistan is the victim of Indian intelligence agency sponsoring terror attacks inside Pakistan. 
India has used terrorist networks to destabilise its neighbours.

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## Chinese-Dragon

eyeswideshut said:


> Why would US spend its effort on pitting india against china? Isnt china sided with pakistan and encouraging terrorist attacks in india.



No, in fact according to India's own internal military report (the Henderson-Brooks report), it was India that attacked China in 1962, while we were in the middle of the worst famine in our history:

It wasn't China, but Nehru who declared 1962 war - The Times of India

(And you still lost. )

As for the topic, this kind of "infiltration" is easier between USA/Russia/Israel, because all of these people are ethnically "white" looking. However they can't pass as Chinese, even half Chinese will be quite easy to see. (Keanu Reeves is half Chinese for example, and there is no way he would be able to pass as a local).

This isn't a Western country like the UK where their Prime Minister and everyone who could be Prime Minister is ethnically Jewish with foreign roots (Cameron, Miliband, etc.) Or America where there top leadership is Black/Hispanic. This is China, our top leadership are all Chinese.

The problem for us are Hanjian, those who will sell out their own motherland for a few USD. That's the real threat.

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## Indika

Chinese-Dragon said:


> No, in fact according to India's own internal military report (the Henderson-Brooks report), it was India that attacked China in 1962, while we were in the middle of the worst famine in our history:
> 
> It wasn't China, but Nehru who declared 1962 war - The Times of India
> 
> (And you still lost. )
> 
> As for the topic, this kind of "infiltration" is easier between USA/Russia/Israel, because all of these people are ethnically "white" looking. However they can't pass as Chinese, even half Chinese will be quite easy to see. (Keanu Reeves is half Chinese for example, and there is no way he would be able to pass as a local).
> 
> This isn't a Western country like the UK where their Prime Minister and everyone who could be Prime Minister is ethnically Jewish with foreign roots (Cameron, Miliband, etc.) Or America where there top leadership is Black/Hispanic. This is China, our top leadership are all Chinese.
> 
> The problem for us are Hanjian, those who will sell out their own motherland for a few USD. That's the real threat.


It was actually the japanese crane which ate the siberian fox in antartica.



Beidou2020 said:


> I believe Pakistan is the victim of Indian intelligence agency sponsoring terror attacks inside Pakistan.
> India has used terrorist networks to destabilise its neighbours.


yeah you are correct India supported bin laden and mullah omar.
.


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## Viet

September 4, 2015

*Rosneft and Japan Drilling Co., Ltd. signed an agreement for drilling exploration wells offshore Vietnam*

Rosneft Vietnam B.V., a company of Rosneft Group, and Japan Drilling Co., Ltd. (JDC) represented by its subsidiary Hakuryu 5, Inc. signed an agreement on provision and operation of the marine drilling rig HAKURYU-5, for the purposes of drilling exploration wells within the framework of Rosneft’s projects in Vietnam. It is planned to drill two wells in Blocks 06.1 and 05-3/11 in the Nam Con Son basin offshore Vietnam in 2016.

Consistent implementation of drilling works at both blocks will ensure synergy between the two projects and help reduce the timelines for implementation of the works, thus maximizing the efficiency of exploration activities at the Company’s Vietnamese assets.

Commenting on the document’s signing, Rosneft Chairman of the Management Board Igor Sechin noted:* “We have always welcomed participation of high technology partners from Japan in implementation of the Company’s projects. Despite the difficult macroeconomic situation, today we are expanding our cooperation in the area of exploration and production of hydrocarbons by executing contracts not only in Russia, but also in Asia Pacific.”*



*FOR REFERENCE:*

At present Rosneft is involved in the projects related to gas and condensate production and geological exploration in two blocks on Vietnamese shelf:


Block 06.1: Rosneft Vietnam B.V. owns 35% in the project, acting as the project operator; the project is being implemented based on the Production Sharing Contract (PSC). The PSC area comprises two gas condensate fields – Lan Tay and Lan Do. The fields are located 370 km from the shore in the Nam Con Son basin, the sea depth at the fields reaches 190 m. The initial gas reserves at the fields are about 68 billion cubic meters. By June 2015, accumulated production from Block 06.1 reached 300 million barrels of oil equivalent (or over 46 bcm of gas).
Block 05-3/11: Rosneft Vietnam B.V. owns 100% in the project and is the project operator. The licensed block is located in the region with proven hydrocarbon potential and well-developed infrastructure that also borders with the already operated fields of Block 06.1. The current estimate of Block 05.3/11 reserves is 40 billion cubic meters of gas and 9 million tons of gas condensate. 3D-seismic survey of 1,180 square kilometers and subsequent interpretation and studies have been completed, structures for exploration drilling activities in 2016 were defined.
Rosneft is also an investor with 32.67% equity in the Nam Con Son Pipeline – transporting gas and condensate from four offshore blocks in the Nam Con Son basin to power complex onshore –which creates a potential synergy in the event of discovery of commercial reserves in Block 05-3/11.


Rosneft - Rosneft and Japan Drilling Co., Ltd. signed an agreement for drilling exploration wells offshore Vietnam

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## Viet

@Nihonjin1051

_this news may be for you of interest. we are about to break the alliance between the russians and chinese against japan. and of course to mention, we strengthen the sovereignty over our maritime domain, and further undermine chinese 9-dash-claim._

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## 70U63

It is just commercial interest instead of geopolitic.
No doubt this topic have potential become troll fest 


Viet said:


> @Nihonjin1051
> _this news may be for you of interest. we break the alliance between the russians and chinese against japan._


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## Viet

70U63 said:


> It is just commercial interest instead of geopolitic.
> No doubt this topic have potential become troll fest


japan is our friend, supporting our nation in the last decades when we were enduring the hardship. it is in our interest to support japan. it serves both: our commercial interest and GEOPOLITIC.

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## Nilgiri

70U63 said:


> It is just commercial interest instead of geopolitic.



But will China now issue the same kind/manner of threat to Russia that it gave to India regarding joint oil exploration and extraction in the disputed areas?

With more countries joining the fray under Vietnam's claim....what is China going to do?

More words and statements?

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## 大汉奸柳传志

Time to mobilize Haiyang Shiyou 982 !!!

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## 70U63

I seriously wouldn't worry about this issue. If the drilling and operation are not in disputed area, everyone is happy. If it is in disputed area, i will just grab my popcorn and wait for the show. If China vs other strong country, they might just badmouth each other in the press and go back to negotiating table (behind the closed-door). The more interesting is if strong vs weak? Strong countries do have more card to play. 

Another thing, i don't think a lot of strong nations will stand with Vietnam beside Japan and US (& their Asian Pacific's sheriff aka Australia). Mostly will stand neutral, ask everyone to calm down and negotiate, while we busy see a lot people killing each others in middle east. 

OK, let's make a scenario, let's say a project JV btw Japan and Vietnam in disputed area, China and Japan subsequently send their coast guard there. They will only shout and each others, nothing will happen (may be use water canon so they can publish some on the press. The project wouldn't proceed because it is not safe. As usual no other member in ASEAN have time for this shxt as we are facing too much internal problem.



Nilgiri said:


> But will China now issue the same kind/manner of threat to Russia that it gave to India regarding joint oil exploration and extraction in the disputed areas?
> 
> With more countries joining the fray under Vietnam's claim....what is China going to do?
> 
> More words and statements?

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## Nilgiri

I am pretty sure the drilling is in a disputed area....seeing how the claim by China basically wraps up right against Vietnamese coastline. Vietnam would have to be drilling within its very immediate territorial waters to not be in the "disputed" zone with China....and as far as I know there is no oil there. All of it lies further offshore from the blocks I have seen....though I could be wrong.

I agree lets grab the popcorn and watch.


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## xunzi

You need to stop causing trouble.

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## TaiShang

*Sino-Russia co-engineered heavy helicopter debut in China*
2015-09-09_
_
A heavy-lift helicopter jointly developed by China and Russia made its debut in China on Wednesday.

*On display at the Tianjin International Helicopter Exhibition, the chopper is specially designed to suit China's geographical conditions, and can operate smoothly at high altitudes and temperatures, said Huang Chuanyue, deputy chief engineer with the helicopter division of the Aviation Industry Corp. of China.*

With a maximum cruising speed of 300 km/h, and the ability to take-off carrying 38.2 tonnes, it can carry excavators, cargo containers and light tactical vehicles, Huang told Xinhua.

China and Russia on May 8 signed a framework agreement agreeing to take the project to the next stage, which specified that all future models will be manufactured in China, Huang said.

These heavy-duty helicopters will be used in rescue and disaster missions, as well as maritime affairs, Huang said.

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## !eon

@TaiShang Have you got any pic of this heli ?


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## TaiShang

!eon said:


> @TaiShang Have you got any pic of this heli ?



Sorry, I have found no pictures so far.

@cirr , @cnleio , @Beast and other knowledgeable members would have much more info about this.

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## war&peace

Something like this (This is sky crane skorsky 64) 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/N179AC-Elvis-739.jpg


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## Echo_419

Viet said:


> @Nihonjin1051
> 
> _this news may be for you of interest. we are about to break the alliance between the russians and chinese against japan. and of course to mention, we strengthen the sovereignty over our maritime domain, and further undermine chinese 9-dash-claim._



Vietnam is a force of peace & stability in the region

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## Nilgiri

From the description in the article, I doubt its going to be like the skycrane but more like the the Mi-26.

38.2 tons of payload is a real beast. It's going to be the largest helicopter in the world....and gives the V-12 a run for its money.

Can't wait to see it!

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## Shabi1

Its going to be a heavily modified up rated Mi-26.














China Defense Blog: The Sino-Russian 20+ ton Heavy-lift Helicopter Project, confirmed

"Aleksandra Mikheyev, general manager of the Russian Helicopters, said at the Zhuhai Air Show in November 2014 that the contract would be signed for the China-Russian heavy helicopter joint development project in two or three months, and the aerodynamic configuration and flight performance parameters of the helicopter would be determined by February 2015.

　　Mikheyev said that the model is evolved from the M-26T helicopter, its take-off weight and carrying capacity are all smaller than those of the M-26 helicopter, but it is equipped with the M-26's D-136 engine, and therefore is superior to the M-26 helicopter in terms of thrust-weight ratio and mobility.

　　 The latest coverage of the Russian media, however, described the helicopter as "with a take-off weight of 38 tons and a carrying capacity of less than 15 tons, it can be used on plateaus under thermal climate conditions", which is not a copy and simple improvement of the M-26 helicopter."

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## qwerrty

Shabi1 said:


> Its going to be a heavily modified up rated Mi-26.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Defense Blog: The Sino-Russian 20+ ton Heavy-lift Helicopter Project, confirmed
> 
> "Aleksandra Mikheyev, general manager of the Russian Helicopters, said at the Zhuhai Air Show in November 2014 that the contract would be signed for the China-Russian heavy helicopter joint development project in two or three months, and the aerodynamic configuration and flight performance parameters of the helicopter would be determined by February 2015.
> 
> Mikheyev said that the model is evolved from the M-26T helicopter, its take-off weight and carrying capacity are all smaller than those of the M-26 helicopter, but it is equipped with the M-26's D-136 engine, and therefore is superior to the M-26 helicopter in terms of thrust-weight ratio and mobility.
> 
> The latest coverage of the Russian media, however, described the helicopter as "with a take-off weight of 38 tons and a carrying capacity of less than 15 tons, it can be used on plateaus under thermal climate conditions", which is not a copy and simple improvement of the M-26 helicopter."






that's old news. according to latest news, the new heavy chopper will be designed from scratch...




Russia and China plan to build an innovative heavy-lift helicopter | Defence blog
By Dylan Vosman - Sep 8, 2015

Russia and China are to sign the contract for the joint development of a heavy-lift helicopter designated Advanced Heavy Lift (AHL), Deputy Chief Executive Officer for Sales at Russian Helicopters holding company Grigory Kozlov was quoted as saying in an interview.

*“We are going to build a helicopter from scratch making it a fundamentally new aircraft even though it will borrow some of the solutions from the existing Mi-26, explains Gregory Kozlov. *

He also noted that to date, Russian Helicopters and Chinese corporation AVIC had formulated preliminary specifications and were working on towards a consensus on what the advanced heavy-lift helicopter would look like.

Experts estimate that the demand for the new model in China could top 200 rotorcrafts for the period until 2040. It is assumed that the AHL take-off weight will be about 38 tons, while the maximum commercial payload inside the cabin – 10 tons and the external load – 15 tons. The helicopter will be designed for around-the-clock operation in hot climates, in highland areas and in all weather conditions. It will be suitable for a wide range of missions: transportation, evacuation, firefighting and many others.

It is proposed that the future Russian-Chinese heavy-lift helicopter will receive a Russian-made engine leveraging the technology of the domestically produced engine PD-14. The Perm aircraft designers are prepared to launch this engine into mass production. One of the PD-14 prototypes was unveiled at the MAKS-2015 air show.

The framework cooperation agreement for the advanced heavy-lift helicopter project was signed between Russian Helicopters and China Aviation Industry Corporation this May. Pursuant to the agreement, the parties will work together across all the areas of development and preparatory activities ahead of the mass production of the new Advanced Heavy Lift (AHL) rotorcraft.

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## cirr

TaiShang said:


> Sorry, I have found no pictures so far.
> 
> @cirr , @cnleio , @Beast and other knowledgeable members would have much more info about this.



Only a model：

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## Place Of Space

Shabi1 said:


> Its going to be a heavily modified up rated Mi-26.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Defense Blog: The Sino-Russian 20+ ton Heavy-lift Helicopter Project, confirmed
> 
> "Aleksandra Mikheyev, general manager of the Russian Helicopters, said at the Zhuhai Air Show in November 2014 that the contract would be signed for the China-Russian heavy helicopter joint development project in two or three months, and the aerodynamic configuration and flight performance parameters of the helicopter would be determined by February 2015.
> 
> Mikheyev said that the model is evolved from the M-26T helicopter, its take-off weight and carrying capacity are all smaller than those of the M-26 helicopter, but it is equipped with the M-26's D-136 engine, and therefore is superior to the M-26 helicopter in terms of thrust-weight ratio and mobility.
> 
> The latest coverage of the Russian media, however, described the helicopter as "with a take-off weight of 38 tons and a carrying capacity of less than 15 tons, it can be used on plateaus under thermal climate conditions", which is not a copy and simple improvement of the M-26 helicopter."



These heavy heli in the future will be mainly deployed in southwest Plateau areas. China needs the giant tool to suppress the Indian aggressive challenges.

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## Place Of Space

If it is in the disputed area, China will ruthless destroy these contracts in operation.

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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> @Nihonjin1051
> 
> _this news may be for you of interest. we are about to break the alliance between the russians and chinese against japan. and of course to mention, we strengthen the sovereignty over our maritime domain, and further undermine chinese 9-dash-claim._




I said it before, and I'll say it again --- Japan and Vietnam are partners in the truest sense.

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## [Bregs]

Smart move by Vietnam to rope in japan and Russia for these projects

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## Aepsilons

Echo_419 said:


> Vietnam is a force of peace & stability in the region







[Bregs] said:


> Smart move by Vietnam to rope in japan and Russia for these projects




Vietnam is indeed wise to bring in the consortium of Russia, Japan, India, the United States to develop Vietnam's Offshore Oil and Gas resources in Vietnam's maritime territory.

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

弱者为什么要战斗，仅凭决心又能守护得了什么？


Nihonjin1051 said:


> I said it before, and I'll say it again --- Japan and Vietnam are partners in the truest sense


战斗力1+战斗力4=战斗力5，渣渣


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## SR-91

I'm surprised to see Russia in the news. Why do they want to upset China n their new found friendship?
Daal me kuch kala hai!!!!!


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## Aepsilons

SR-91 said:


> I'm surprised to see Russia in the news. Why do they want to upset China n their new found friendship?
> Daal me kuch kala hai!!!!!



Russia doesn't care about international image; Russia will follow any objectives that will benefit Russia. Russia is a continental and military superpower. She is will not be limited for the sake of feelings of any particular nation south of Russia's border.Russia will use whatever is necessary to forward the Russian Agenda Abroad. Russia for Russia, i suppose. 

Some countries believe in emotional pacts, Russia does not operate like that.

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## xyxmt

Is India not doing it


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## Aepsilons

@vostok



xyxmt said:


> Is India not doing it




The following countries are vested in Vietnam's Maritime Resources:


Japan
Russia
United States
India
Vietnam

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## SR-91

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Russia doesn't care about international image; Russia will follow any objectives that will benefit Russia. Russia is a continental and military superpower. She is will not be limited for the sake of feelings of any particular nation south of Russia's border.Russia will use whatever is necessary to forward the Russian Agenda Abroad. Russia for Russia, i suppose.
> 
> Some countries believe in emotional pacts, Russia does not operate like that.



True, but this move is sure to create ripples between these two. Why Russia needs to hunt for oil away from home, when it has plenty?


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## Aepsilons

SR-91 said:


> True, but this move is sure to create ripples between these two. Why Russia needs to hunt for oil away from home, when it has plenty?



Balance of Power. Russia cooperates with China out of necessity to bulwark against the effects of the sanctions. However, this does not mean that the Russian Military Establishment as well as the Interest Groups in the *Rossiyskaya Federatsiya *[Federation of Russian Republics] considers and views the People's Republic of China as its 'Total Ally', no, if you study geopolitics as long as I have and have considered the social and military defense paradigms, you will see it is a cooperation out of convenience. Russia policy is fixated on one singular point and that is : 1) Russian Federation Interest. If it benefits Russia to develop closer relations with Vietnam (an ASEAN state) then Russia will pursue such a policy. Russian Foreign Policy is deeply consistent and heavily focused on Russian Interest, first and foremost. Russia will not change foreign policy for the sake of China.

We are, afterall, talking about the legacy of the Great Soviet Union. Russia fears no one in the world; as a powerful nuclear entity with over 10,000 strategic nuclear forces , there is no power in this earth that 'influences' Russia militarily. China will never be a force to inhibit Russia, ever.

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## vostok

Nihonjin1051 said:


> @vostok


What?


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## Aepsilons

vostok said:


> What?



Sir, what's your input on Russia-Vietnam partnership. Id like to hear from the Russian point of view.


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## Viet

Place Of Space said:


> If it is in the disputed area, China will ruthless destroy these contracts in operation.


They, japan and russia will drill in our Eez, but may violate your fcking claim. Check the news in the coming days, the positions of russia oil/gas rigs will be made public. If not already. Pls feel free to send a cruise missile or two to destroy them. Ahem...Just in case you don't know, the russians have little humour if you kill their citizens. Good luck.

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## Aepsilons

Viet said:


> They, japan and russia will drill in our Eez, but may violate your fcking claim. Check the news in the coming days, the positions of russia oil/gas rigs will be made public. If not already. Pls feel free to send a cruise missile or two to destroy them. Ahem...Just in case you don't know, the russians have little humour if you kill their citizens. Good luck.




I have a feeling that Vietnam will be used as a mechanism for both Russia and Japan to build constructionist policies toward each other. Oh happy day!


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## Spectre

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Balance of Power. Russia cooperates with China out of necessity to bulwark against the effects of the sanctions. However, this does not mean that the Russian Military Establishment as well as the Interest Groups in the *Rossiyskaya Federatsiya *[Federation of Russian Republics] considers and views the People's Republic of China as its 'Total Ally', no, if you study geopolitics as long as I have and have considered the social and military defense paradigms, you will see it is a cooperation out of convenience. Russia policy is fixated on one singular point and that is : 1) Russian Federation Interest. If it benefits Russia to develop closer relations with Vietnam (an ASEAN state) then Russia will pursue such a policy. Russian Foreign Policy is deeply consistent and heavily focused on Russian Interest, first and foremost. Russia will not change foreign policy for the sake of China.
> 
> We are, afterall, talking about the legacy of the Great Soviet Union. Russia fears no one in the world; as a powerful nuclear entity with over 10,000 strategic nuclear forces , there is no power in this earth that 'influences' Russia militarily. China will never be a force to inhibit Russia, ever.



Partly true and partly misleading. Let me elaborate.

It is true Russia is vary of China, any country not willing to concede to Chinese supremacy would be, if you take past friction between China and Russia this doubly true.

But does the above preclude long term military and economic alignment of Sino-Russian relationship - No. The convergence is based on natural and complementary goals, strengths and weaknesses. China has very cleverly exploited Russian insecurities and troubles in relation to NATO. For all practical purposes China has co-opted Russia to it's cause of presenting a viable alternative to current power structure. Not saying this is good or bad. This is just how the game is played.

Russia is completely aware of this fact but has no option other than to go along with China, as there is no other anti-west/neutral country which can offer the combination which China does - Hard Cash, Human Resources and an ally at UNSC.

Hence you would see Russia adopting Chinese policies and goals even when they are not in Russia's best interest atleast for next few years. If oil prices rise substantially and NATO makes peace with Russia and Sanctions are withdrawn we might see a change in Russian tactics.

Long term, Russia will not forget their history with NATO and would likely seek an alliance on the old lines. Putin's thirst for re-capturing the glory of USSR will let Russia - US (NATO)alliance form. This does not mean Russia will trust China Blindly and forgo its interests in long term

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## vostok

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Sir, what's your input on Russia-Vietnam partnership. Id like to hear from the Russian point of view.


Vietnam - longtime partner of Russia. It is not surprising that Russian companies win tenders in Vietnam.

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## Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> I said it before, and I'll say it again --- Japan and Vietnam are partners in the truest sense.


all my best wishes to japan. Instead of flowers or other things, consider this as a small gift of the communist party chief of vietnam, he is going to pay a short visit your country

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## Aepsilons

Spectre said:


> Partly true and partly misleading. Let me elaborate.
> 
> It is true Russia is vary of China, any country not willing to concede to Chinese supremacy would be, if you take past friction between China and Russia this doubly true.
> 
> But does the above preclude long term military and economic alignment of Sino-Russian relationship - No. The convergence is based on natural and complementary goals, strengths and weaknesses. China has very cleverly exploited Russian insecurities and troubles in relation to NATO. For all practical purposes China has co-opted Russia to it's cause of presenting a viable alternative to current power structure. Not saying this is good or bad. This is just how the game is played.
> 
> Russia is completely aware of this fact but has no option other than to go along with China, as there is no other anti-west/neutral country which can offer the combination which China does - Hard Cash, Human Resources and an ally at UNSC.




Astute points, and I agree with your analysis of how China has co-opted Russia to China's cause of presenting a viable alternative to current power structure. But therein lies the main issue -- Russia 'has no other option', meaning it is a means to an end, a current (and i say this because it does not mean permanence) policy initiative. Will Russia leave the China-centered praxis when opportunities arise for Russia? I can bet my golden egg (if i were Mother Goose) on it!

Interesting times we live in, i doth say.



vostok said:


> Vietnam - longtime partner of Russia. It is not surprising that Russian companies win tenders in Vietnam.



Thank You, my respectable Russian Friend.

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## Spectre

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Astute points, and I agree with your analysis of how China has co-opted Russia to China's cause of presenting a viable alternative to current power structure. But therein lies the main issue -- Russia 'has no other option', meaning it is a means to an end, a current (and i say this because it does not mean permanence) policy initiative. Will Russia leave the China-centered praxis when opportunities arise for Russia? I can bet my golden egg (if i were Mother Goose) on it!
> 
> Interesting times we live in, i doth say.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You, my respectable Russian Friend.



Yes, please re- read my complete post post edit which is mostly what you have said with some divergence about long term strategy.

Regards


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## [Bregs]

vostok said:


> Vietnam - longtime partner of Russia. It is not surprising that Russian companies win tenders in Vietnam.



what would be china's reaction if Russians are alloted drilling wells in scs


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## ChineseTiger1986

[Bregs] said:


> what would be china's reaction if Russians are alloted drilling wells in scs



We build our articial islands and Vietnam needs more drill, everybody has its own life.

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## Aepsilons

Spectre said:


> Hence you would see Russia adopting Chinese policies and goals even when they are not in Russia's best interest atleast for next few years. If oil prices rise substantially and NATO makes peace with Russia and Sanctions are withdrawn we might see a change in Russian tactics.
> 
> Long term, Russia will not forget their history with NATO and would likely seek an alliance on the old lines. Putin's thirst for re-capturing the glory of USSR will let Russia - US (NATO)alliance



1. The sanctions will be removed in 2-3 years time.
2. Russia's independent foreign policy is actually a necessity to balance the NATO-led world order
3. Let us also note that Russia's foreign policy is adaptable, and mature.



[Bregs] said:


> what would be china's reaction if Russians are alloted drilling wells in scs



Nothing. What can China do? lol. 

We're talking about Russia. lol.

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## vostok

[Bregs] said:


> what would be china's reaction if Russians are alloted drilling wells in scs


I do not know. It's just business, such questions can always be solved.

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## Viva_Viet

Russia-Japan-VietNam- Laos-Myanmar-India, wow, China is surrounded

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## Aepsilons

Viva_Viet said:


> Russia-Japan-VietNam- Laos-Myanmar-India, wow, China is surrounded



We come in peace and for the gas ! lol.


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## Viva_Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We come in peace and for the gas ! lol.


In 1979, Soviet could not give a full support to VN bcs Cn blocked the way between VN-Soviet and Japan was not VN's friend. But things changed , I hope Japan will give VN-Russia a helping hand if China try to block the support from Russia bro to Vietnam again

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## Aepsilons

Viva_Viet said:


> In 1979, Soviet could not give a full support to VN bcs Cn blocked the way between VN-Soviet and Japan was not VN's friend. But things changed , I hope Japan will give VN-Russia a helping hand if China try to block the support from Russia bro to Vietnam again



Oh trust me I doubt China wants to experience the catastrophic military failure that was 1979 sino vietnamese war. Vietnam is stronger now and has a very broad support base now.


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## Viva_Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Oh trust me I doubt China wants to experience the catastrophic military failure that was 1979 sino vietnamese war. Vietnam is stronger now and has a very broad support base now.


Of course China dare not do it again WITHOUT daddy US support. But who knows what that crazy US may think . They may think that VN could be a threat like in 1979, so they may support China to attack VN again. 

VN-JP people have a good vision, I hope you guys realise which way both of us should go, times to unite and become stronger.....or US-CN will stab on our back again

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## Aepsilons

Viva_Viet said:


> Of course China dare not do it again WITHOUT daddy US support. But who knows what that crazy US may think . They may think that VN could be a threat like in 1979, so they may support China to attack VN again.
> 
> VN-JP people have a good vision, I hope you guys realise which way both of us should go, times to unite and become stronger.....or US-CN will stab on our back again



We are TPP brothers, we must think forward my friend not backwards.


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## Viva_Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> We are TPP brothers, we must think forward my friend not backwards.


Russia, not China is always a serious threat to USA, if US see a stronger Russian influence in ASEAN specially in Malacca, US will become seriously panic and they may do some stupid think again like in 1979.

TPP is good, but US is always greedy, if we are not smarter and dont have enough strong cards to play with them, we will lose the game against US in the future.

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## Aepsilons

Viva_Viet said:


> Russia, not China is always a serious threat to USA, if US see a stronger Russian influence in ASEAN specially in Malacca, US will become seriously panic and they may do some stupid think again like in 1979.
> 
> TPP is good, but US is always greedy, if we are not smarter and dont have enough strong cards to play with them, we will lose the game against US in the future.




Two words: Ying Yang.


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## Huan

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Balance of Power. Russia cooperates with China out of necessity to bulwark against the effects of the sanctions. However, this does not mean that the Russian Military Establishment as well as the Interest Groups in the *Rossiyskaya Federatsiya *[Federation of Russian Republics] considers and views the People's Republic of China as its 'Total Ally', no, if you study geopolitics as long as I have and have considered the social and military defense paradigms, you will see it is a cooperation out of convenience. Russia policy is fixated on one singular point and that is : 1) Russian Federation Interest. If it benefits Russia to develop closer relations with Vietnam (an ASEAN state) then Russia will pursue such a policy. Russian Foreign Policy is deeply consistent and heavily focused on Russian Interest, first and foremost. Russia will not change foreign policy for the sake of China.
> 
> We are, afterall, talking about the legacy of the Great Soviet Union. Russia fears no one in the world; as a powerful nuclear entity with over 10,000 strategic nuclear forces , there is no power in this earth that 'influences' Russia militarily. China will never be a force to inhibit Russia, ever.


Seriously, you cannot say never ever. China is still growing in economic and military size year by year.


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## Pangu

Well, it is true we can't do much if the Russians had a contract with the Viets. 

Except to bring in our own drilling rigs to up the ante. 

Truth be told, it's rinse & repeat, quite boring I might add.

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## Aepsilons

Pangu said:


> Well, it is true we can't do much if the Russians had a contract with the Viets.
> 
> Except to bring in our own drilling rigs to up the ante.
> 
> Truth be told, it's rinse & repeat, quite boring I might add.




Its just business, my friend. Nothing for any of us to get 'emotional' about.

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## Pangu

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Its just business, my friend. Nothing for any of us to get 'emotional' about.



Yes it is. But headlines sells sensationalism & make believers out of dull minds. I think it's time to rest to concentrate on the economy, the truth is, bad economy in China or Japan or the US is bad for everyone. Period.

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## TaiShang

*Drone buddies: Russia, China work on first MRLS-delivered scout UAV*
Published time: 9 Sep, 2015 






A Russian launch rocket system "Smerch" © Sergei Karpukhin / Reuters
992183

*Russian and Chinese engineers have allied to develop the first-ever reconnaissance drone instantly delivered to battlefields as far as 90km away using a powerful projectile of a multiple launch rocket system.*
Development of a drone delivered within a 300mm MRLS rocket is underway at the Splav design bureau and production center in the Russian city of Tula. The center is an integral part of Russia’s Techmash Concern, a weapon developer and subsidiary of the state corporation Rostec.

_“This system makes tactical intelligence really fast, because the UAV is delivered to a desired distance – which could be up to 90km – by a projectile flying with tremendous speed,”_ Deputy Director of Techmash Concern, Dmitry Rytenkov, said at the Russia Arms Expo 2015 in Nizhny Tagil on Wednesday.

Once deployed, the drone should be able to monitor the area fir 25-30 minutes, transmitting data to an operational console in real time, Rytenkov said.

That is more than enough for a MRLS battery to deliver a precise rocket strike and leave the firing position.





A 9А52-4 MLRS 9К58 Smerch. © Pavel Lisitsyn / RIA Novosti

Rytenkov has not elaborated further regarding which part of the system is going to be designed in China.

*Both Russia and China have 300mm MRLS systems in the inventory.*

For Russia it is the BM-30 Smerch (Whirlwind), a 12-rocket system capable of firing rockets with up to 250kg payload to a distance of 90km.

China also has several BM-30 Smerch systems, along with the domestically-developed A-100, armed with 10 rockets.

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## TaiShang

*China-Russia Ties Are Also a Product of Similar Historical Memory*

The two countries can point to a number of times they shared a similar fate of western invasion and attempted domination
Recently both suffered a similarly bloody WWII experience
WWII is sacred in Russia - Unlike the west Moscow would never fail to show up for an important WWII commemoration in another country over daily politics
Likewise Russians appreciate that China tying up millions of Japanese soldiers prevented Japan from joining the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union
_Alexander Gabuev is a senior associate at Carnegie Moscow Center_

Chinese President Xi Jinping watched the military parade Thursday at Tiananmen Square to commemorate China's contribution to WWII and Chinese losses in the war. Xi was joined by 30 heads of state, with Russian President Vladimir Putin standing next to him. This was a repeat of the May 9 Victory Day parade on Moscow's Red Square, where Xi was Putin's guest of honor. *The symbolic affinity between the two leaders represents not only a shared outlook on the current world, but also a shared view of history.*

WWII plays an important role in national psyches of both Russia and China. *For China, the war first started in 1937 - before the 1939 invasion of Poland that begun the war's European theater - and ended last.* The country has lost tens of millions of lives. *For the Soviet Union, the war claimed about 27 million lives - more than 13.7 percent of the population.* 

Large parts of both countries were invaded, and local populations were engaged in guerilla resistance. The war touched nearly every family in both Russia and China. That is why the memory of victory in WWII and of the sacrifices made in the course of war is still remembered after 70 years. This anniversary may be the last one for surviving veterans, which only adds to the significance. 

Both states have made the memory of WWII a part of “patriotic education campaigns” over the last seven decades, aimed at boosting social cohesion. Many of current leaders in both countries were brought up to hold respect toward WWII, making V-Day one of the most important days in their respective national calendars.

*This reality is very different from many former Allies nations, where the memories of WWII are still important, but don't play that foundational role. For example, WWII was no less an important experience for Great Britain, France and the US. This partially explains why these Western leaders skipped celebrations in Moscow and Beijing so easily this year due to current political disagreements with China and Russia over territorial disputes in the South China Sea or the war in Ukraine. *

Sometimes this attitude makes many Russians and Chinese feel not credited enough for what both nations contributed to the common victory.

It is not only the astonishingly high number of casualties which bring Russia and China together on this day. *Chinese resistance played a vital role in immobilizing the Japanese army and preventing an attack on the USSR from the East. Without China, both the Soviet Union and the US would have a very different situation vis-a-vis Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. *

The present is also important. 

Russia is under international sanctions over its actions in Crimea and its role in Donbass war. For Putin, a special relationship with China and Xi, who is perhaps the closest person to him among all current global leaders, is very important. China is facing its own international difficulties because of intensified territorial conflicts in the South China Sea and over the Diaoyu Islands. Another layer of tensions was added by the US plan to introduce sanctions against selected Chinese companies charged with cyber theft. 

In this environment, it is also important for Beijing to show that it has some friends in the BRICS and SCO countries. Russia is, of course, a very important player in both groups.

With mutual trade falling by 30 percent this year due to low commodities prices and economic downturn in Russia, the symbolic dimension is playing an increasingly important role for both Moscow and Beijing.

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## Jlaw

Sad that the world believe the US defeated Japan. What the US did was this 隔岸观火

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## Martian2

Wages Below China Spark Russian Dreams of Manufacturing Revival - Bloomberg Business

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## AndrewJin

When wages are becoming higher, the pivotal aspect lies in productivity and tech.
If wages are the only consideration, all manufacturing will escape from Japan/SK/Taiwan.

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## Hamartia Antidote

...and everybody here thinks the average person in Russia is thumbs up happy with the effects of the Ukrainian mess.....

$839 to $508 is huge.


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## S10

Some of the larger coastal cities in China can already be considered high income. I have two cousins, one being a marketing director and the other being a lawyer, easily pulls in 30000 RMB a month. If you convert that to Canadian dollars, that's about $5000. That's actually what I make in salary before taxes.

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## TaiShang

S10 said:


> Some of the larger coastal cities in China can already be considered high income. I have two cousins, one being a marketing director and the other being a lawyer, easily pulls in 30000 RMB a month. If you convert that to Canadian dollars, that's about $5000. That's actually what I make in salary before taxes.



That's exactly the reason China now investing heavily to develop inland regions. In fact, so far in 2015, manufacturing gains have been recorded in Central and Northeastern areas while the East coast saw decline. 

This shows macro-management is quite effective. The new normal.

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## AndrewJin

S10 said:


> Some of the larger coastal cities in China can already be considered high income. I have two cousins, one being a marketing director and the other being a lawyer, easily pulls in 30000 RMB a month. If you convert that to Canadian dollars, that's about $5000. That's actually what I make in salary before taxes.


And 30000yuan in China can buy 30000 newspaper, 15000 A/C bus tickets(without transport card), 15000 tins of cola,



TaiShang said:


> That's exactly the reason China now investing heavily to develop inland regions. In fact, so far in 2015, manufacturing gains have been recorded in Central and Northeastern areas while the East coast saw decline.
> 
> This shows macro-management is quite effective. The new normal.


Take my province in Central China as an example, huge room for development in those 3/4/5th tier cities.
GDP per capita varies significantly.

GDP per capita in 2014, prefecture-level of Hubei

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> That's exactly the reason China now investing heavily to develop inland regions. In fact, so far in 2015, manufacturing gains have been recorded in Central and Northeastern areas while the East coast saw decline.
> 
> This shows macro-management is quite effective. The new normal.


higher wages should help produce even better, higher quality products. A glimpse of Made in China 2025

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## AndrewJin

Jlaw said:


> higher wages should help produce even better, higher quality products. A glimpse of Made in China 2025


Skills to rule.
Tech to rule.
Skills to rule: East Asia's dominance in 43rd WorldSkills Competition in Brazil

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## Jlaw

AndrewJin said:


> Skills to rule.
> Tech to rule.
> Skills to rule: East Asia's dominance in 43rd WorldSkills Competition in Brazil


World skills 44th should be interesting. I expect more Chinese medals.

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## Hamartia Antidote

S10 said:


> Some of the larger coastal cities in China can already be considered high income. I have two cousins, one being a marketing director and the other being a lawyer, easily pulls in 30000 RMB a month. If you convert that to Canadian dollars, that's about $5000. That's actually what I make in salary before taxes.



But a typical experienced lawyer in Canada makes 6 figures.

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## AndrewJin

Jlaw said:


> World skills 44th should be interesting. I expect more Chinese medals.


A glimpse of China's vocational education.
Skilled workers now are given higher and higher wages because they deserve it.

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## S10

Hamartia Antidote said:


> But a typical experienced lawyer in Canada makes 6 figures.


That's too much of a blanket statement. It depends on your field. The average income for lawyers across Canada is actually about $75,000. Also, my cousin is only two years older than I am (I'm 27), and still considered a junior in his firm.

Using another profession as an example. My aunt is a senior nurse of a hospital in my home town, and she makes about 20,000 RMB monthly.

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## Jlaw

AndrewJin said:


> A glimpse of China's vocational education.
> Skilled workers now are given higher and higher wages because they deserve it.


nice documentary. Hail Sany



Hamartia Antidote said:


> But a typical experienced lawyer in Canada makes 6 figures.


Who cares. Lawyers are scumbags. The common workers are the backbone of China's success not lawyers

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## Nan Yang

Hamartia Antidote said:


> But a typical experienced lawyer in Canada makes 6 figures.


A lawyer? Oh i am so sorry for your country.

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## AndrewJin

Nan Yang said:


> A lawyer? Oh i am so sorry for your country.


US spends too much on lawyers and medication.
Even they spend that much, their life expectancy is one of the shortest in developed countries.
Their service sector as in Chinese idiom is 空中楼阁。

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## Jlaw

S10 said:


> That's too much of a blanket statement. It depends on your field. The average income for lawyers across Canada is actually about $75,000. Also, my cousin is only two years older than I am (I'm 27), and still considered a junior in his firm.
> 
> Using another profession as an example. My aunt is a senior nurse of a hospital in my home town, and she makes about 20,000 RMB monthly.


$75k before tax after tax, EI, EHT, etc in Canada you end up making less than $55k



S10 said:


> That's too much of a blanket statement. It depends on your field. The average income for lawyers across Canada is actually about $75,000. Also, my cousin is only two years older than I am (I'm 27), and still considered a junior in his firm.
> 
> Using another profession as an example. My aunt is a senior nurse of a hospital in my home town, and she makes about 20,000 RMB monthly.


$75k before tax after tax, EI, EHT, etc in Canada you end up making less than $55k

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## Hamartia Antidote

Nan Yang said:


> A lawyer? Oh i am so sorry for your country.



Well Canada isn't my country...

Certainly hiring a lawyer in the U.S. can be expensive...but many companies offer their employees shared access to a Law firm service for a token amount a year.

You hear people in movies say "let me call my lawyer".
Just last month some company was dragging their feet on a warranty obligation for a co-worker of mine. The next email he sent to them he CC'd the law firm. The company quickly paid.


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## Keel

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Well Canada isn't my country...
> 
> Certainly hiring a lawyer in the U.S. can be expensive...but many companies offer their employees shared access to a Law firm service for a token amount a year.
> 
> You hear people in movies say "let me call my lawyer".
> Just last month some company was dragging their feet on a warranty obligation for a co-worker of mine. The next email he sent to them he CC'd the law firm. The company quickly paid.




Untrue

Your company WONT bail you out at all costs without considering the types of legal fees you are going to pay PLUS there is a celing to the company's obligation for you AND legal consultations paid for by the company are usually limited to executives

PS: why change your handle when the old one is much simplier? New bottle old wine!

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## HongWu002

Great news! Chinese living standards are like South Korea and Taiwan a generation ago. With strong leadership, we can even cover the difference within 15 years. By 2030, with the Japanese recession continuing for a half century since 1990s, our wages will be quite close to Japan.

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## Luca1

Hamartia Antidote said:


> But a typical experienced lawyer in Canada makes 6 figures.



Six figures is not that high any more.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Luca1 said:


> Six figures is not that high any more.



Well that's average. Depending upon your specialty it varies widely. You have simple home closing lawyers and patent lawyers skewing numbers.


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## Luca1

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Well that's average. Depending upon your specialty it varies widely. You have simple home closing lawyers and patent lawyers skewing numbers.



I'm in high tech as software engineer. I'm in the lower end of spectrum in the low 100s.


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## TaiShang

*China, Russia to jointly develop wide-body airliners*
September 17, 2015

Russia expects to sign an agreement with China by the end of 2015 on joint development of long-range wide-bodied airliners, a Russian aircraft manufacturer said on Wednesday.

*Yury Slyusar, president of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), made the remarks at the Aviation Expo China 2015 in Beijing, saying that the technical parameters of the aircraft will be decide in March, 2016.*

*The airliners will not compete with the C919, China's first large passenger aircraft with 150 seats designed for short-haul commercial use, because the two models are different in passenger capacity and range.*

The two sides are already producing aircraft components in Shenzhen, and Russia plans to set up after-sales service and training centers in China, Slyusar said.

According to an agreement signed in May, China and Russia will start leasing the jets from Sukhoi, a UAC affiliate, and sales of Sukhoi SSJ-100 will be allowed in China.

The Russian company plans to sell 100 aircraft in China and Southeast Asia in the next three years.

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## I <3 PAK ARMY

So it means PIA would also get modern aero planes from its neighbors ...cheers :


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## Gufi

TaiShang said:


> *The airliners will not compete with the C919, China's first large passenger aircraft with 150 seats designed for short-haul commercial use, because the two models are different in passenger capacity and range.*


it will actually help Chinese learn the fine details of wide body aircraft in the long term....


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## S10

Jlaw said:


> $75k before tax after tax, EI, EHT, etc in Canada you end up making less than $55k


I think I make about 45k a year after taxes, which is pretty depressing considering my pre-tax salary is 60k.


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## cirr

C929？C939？

C929？C939？

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## Shotgunner51

Martian2 said:


> Wages Below China Spark Russian Dreams of Manufacturing Revival - Bloomberg Business




$764.3 per month? That's from Bloomberg or what? My domestic helper aka maid from Anhui province get paid more than that.

Good luck to those using Bloomberg or "Federal Statistics Services" to do business in China!

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## AndrewJin

Shotgunner51 said:


> $764.3 per month? That's from Bloomberg or what? My domestic helper aka maid from Anhui province get paid more than that.
> 
> Good luck to those using Bloomberg or "Federal Statistics Services" to do business in China!


Unskilled babysitter from the countryside for the newborn babies at least $1500 per month in Shanghai, $1000 in Wuhan.
If they receive some trainings, God knows how much u have to pay for them.

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## badguy2000

one dozen years ago, my salary was just 1/10 of Hongkongese/Tawanese.

Today,My salary today is dozens of times of that 10 years ago.

Now ,my salary is not less than more ordinary Taiwanese/Hongkongese, if it has not surpassed.

considering lower price index here, I can live a larger house and live a cozier life than more ordiary Taiwanese/Honghongese.
BTW, now I have bought 2 apartments and 1 small shop already....
I think that I am more lucky than most youth at the same age on the earth, considering that i had nothing but a monthly salary of 100 usd/month 12 years ago.

I do think my future is birght and I can buy more houses, as long as now war/riot disturb China.

BTW, I live in a tier3 inland city in CHina.

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## AndrewJin

badguy2000 said:


> one dozen years ago, my salary was just 1/10 of Hongkongese/Tawanese.
> 
> Today,My salary today is dozens of times of that 10 years ago.
> 
> Now ,my salary is not less than more ordinary Taiwanese/Hongkongese, if it has not surpassed.
> 
> considering lower price index here, I can live a larger house and live a cozier life than more ordiary Taiwanese/Honghongese.
> BTW, now I have bought 2 apartments and 1 small shop already....
> I think that I am more lucky than most youth at the same age on the earth, considering that my parent's monthly salary was only 50 USD 20 years ago.
> 
> I do think my future is birght and I can buy more houses, as long as now war/riot disturb China.
> 
> BTW, I live in a tier3 inland city in CHina.


True, $5000 salary in USA doesn't mean same living standard of $5000 in China, more like 10000yuan in Shanghai or 6000-8000yuan in second or third tier city.

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## badguy2000

Well,once i visited hongkong ,tailand and combodia. I do feel that chinese goverbnment provides much more chance and brighter future for its citizens than local governments. When i was young boy, my family might be ad poor as most combodia families and admired hongkongese/taiwanese for their higher life standard. Now, my family is much richer than most combodian ones,and i needn't admire hongkongese/taiwanese economically any more. And i am sure that my family has a brighter future than most hongkongese/taiwanese ones.

Every dog has its happy time. And now ,it is the happy time of chinese.

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## CHN Bamboo

The newly graduate come in the firm my dad stay.
Their wage around 4k$.
The normal graduate earn much more than the old genaration.



badguy2000 said:


> one dozen years ago, my salary was just 1/10 of Hongkongese/Tawanese.
> 
> Today,My salary today is dozens of times of that 10 years ago.
> 
> Now ,my salary is not less than more ordinary Taiwanese/Hongkongese, if it has not surpassed.
> 
> considering lower price index here, I can live a larger house and live a cozier life than more ordiary Taiwanese/Honghongese.
> BTW, now I have bought 2 apartments and 1 small shop already....
> I think that I am more lucky than most youth at the same age on the earth, considering that i had nothing but a monthly salary of 100 usd/month 12 years ago.
> 
> I do think my future is birght and I can buy more houses, as long as now war/riot disturb China.
> 
> BTW, I live in a tier3 inland city in CHina.


Oh..
12 years ago,my family is better than u XDDDD


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## Keel

Jlaw said:


> the indian probably does not live in the US. If you get in trouble with the law, the cheapest solution is the company will fire your ***



Some of what he has talked with me earlier about "legal charges" was deleted and his comments didnt make sense at all. Yeah that guy has given away his ID which he tries to hide

These unlucky Chinese Americans who are innocent but still get their "pink slips". 
How uncivilized their orgs are!
U.S. Drops Charges That Professor Shared Technology With China | Page 4

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## Hamartia Antidote

Jlaw said:


> the indian probably does not live in the US. If you get in trouble with the law, the cheapest solution is the company will fire your ***



Legal expenses insurance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would my company fire me??? At most the insurance company may do is raise premiums it charges everybody in my company.

Oh and cut the name calling.

I think you simply don't have the concept of legal insurance in China and you are having a hard time getting your head around it. It's a good thing to have. It's similar to car insurance.


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## CHN Bamboo

Keel said:


> Some of what he has talked with me earlier about "legal charges" was deleted and his comments didnt make sense at all. Yeah that guy has given away his ID which he tries to hide
> 
> These unlucky Chinese Americans who are innocent but still get their "pink slips".
> How uncivilized their orgs are!
> U.S. Drops Charges That Professor Shared Technology With China | Page 4


OH.HE SHOULD BE AN INDIAN?
NOT WHITE,BUT AN INDIAN?
I remember an article I read today.
Summary:Why there are more Indian being CEO?
Because India isnt good for human to live...
WTF.I can hardly concentrate on my exam..It distracts me a lot!!!..
Hahahahahaha..Why our teachers choose this article?

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## AndrewJin

Chinese Bamboo said:


> OH.HE SHOULD BE AN INDIAN?
> NOT WHITE,BUT AN INDIAN?
> I remember an article I read today.
> Summary:Why there are more Indian being CEO?
> Because India isnt good for human to live...


What's the hidden story behind it?




@dy1022

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## CHN Bamboo

AndrewJin said:


> What's the hidden story behind it?
> View attachment 257821
> 
> @dy1022


⁄(⁄ ⁄•⁄ω⁄•⁄ ⁄)⁄
Dont @ him


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## AndrewJin

Chinese Bamboo said:


> ⁄(⁄ ⁄•⁄ω⁄•⁄ ⁄)⁄
> Dont @ him


@dy1022


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## CHN Bamboo

AndrewJin said:


> @dy1022


stop,u r a bad guy

I will explain it on weekend.

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## Keel

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Legal expenses insurance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Why would my company fire me??? At most the insurance company may do is raise premiums it charges everybody in my company.
> 
> Oh and cut the name calling.
> 
> I think you simply don't have the concept of legal insurance in China and you are having a hard time getting your head around it. It's a good thing to have. It's similar to car insurance.



The concept you quoted from wikipedia above is a complete different thing from your comments which were deleted earlier
You said the case involved was about a developer and you co-worker on the dispute over property 
And you said the company paid fully for the legal charges for your co-worker during the case and you further said in admission of your ignorance or mistake that cases like "OJ Simpson" was not included in the Company's responsibility

So you are still at a loss of what the things are doing in this realm

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## Hamartia Antidote

Keel said:


> The concept you quoted from wikipedia above is a complete different thing from your comments which were deleted earlier
> You said the case involved was about a developer and you co-worker on the dispute over property
> And you said the company paid fully for the legal charges for your co-worker during the case and you further said in admission of your ignorance or mistake that cases like "OJ Simpson" was not included in the Company's responsibility
> 
> So you are still at a loss of what the things are doing in this realm



Yes the INSURANCE company paid the LAWYER fees in full. He did not have to pay anything.

The company I work for offers Legal Insurance at a discount. I pay my company a token amount for it and they pay the rest. When I need legal help I go to my Human Resources and have them get me a lawyer. The legal insurance pays for that lawyer.

If you guys weren't so quick to yell "UNTRUE!! UNTRUE!! You don't know what you are talking about..you troll" I could have had a chance to better clear up your confusion. I ALREADY made the car insurance analogy (which was deleted) and was IMMEDIATELY scoffed at and called an Indian.

Instead of scoffing at me and saying "that's impossible" how about saying "hey that sounds like legal insurance..that sounds like a nice things to have".
You guys are hopeless.

Thread over.


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## Jlaw

Keel said:


> The concept you quoted from wikipedia above is a complete different thing from your comments which were deleted earlier
> You said the case involved was about a developer and you co-worker on the dispute over property
> And you said the company paid fully for the legal charges for your co-worker during the case and you further said in admission of your ignorance or mistake that cases like "OJ Simpson" was not included in the Company's responsibility
> 
> So you are still at a loss of what the things are doing in this realm


and thus I ignore the fool.

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## Keel

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Yes the INSURANCE company paid the LAWYER fees in full. He did not have to pay anything.
> 
> The company I work for offers Legal Insurance at a discount. I pay my company a token amount for it and they pay the rest. When I need legal help I go to my Human Resources and have them get me a lawyer. The legal insurance pays for that lawyer.
> 
> If you guys weren't so quick to yell "UNTRUE!! UNTRUE!! You don't know what you are talking about..you troll" I could have had a chance to better clear up your confusion. I ALREADY made the car insurance analogy (which was deleted) and was IMMEDIATELY scoffed at and called an Indian.
> 
> Instead of scoffing at me and saying "that's impossible" how about saying "hey that sounds like legal insurance..that sounds like a nice things to have".
> You guys are hopeless.
> 
> Thread over.



wow that is a " hastily over" when you are misleading readers to a wrong scenario
what industry are you working for?
the case you talked about was between a developer and your co-worker over a property dispute in which both persons wanted to settle the case in court, correct?
did you mention "o j simpson's" case was not applicable to your co-worker's case?



Jlaw said:


> and thus I ignore the fool.



He is trying to fool around

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## AndrewJin

Keel said:


> wow that is a " hastily over" when you are misleading readers to a wrong scenario
> what industry are you working for?
> the case you talked about was between a developer and your co-worker over a property dispute in which both persons wanted to settle the case in court, correct?
> did you mention "o j simpson's" case was not applicable to your co-worker's case?
> 
> 
> 
> He is trying to fool around


Just press ignore button.

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## TaiShang

*‘China, Russia to ink twin-aisle jet deal by end of 2015′ 
September 21, 2015, 7:17 am*







China needs 6,330 new planes worth $950 billion in the next two decades, according to Boeing Co. [xinhua]


Russia plans to work with China on a wide-body aircraft that would compete with jetliners from Boeing Co. and Airbus Group SE and aims to sign an accord by the end of this year, Chinese state media said on Monday.

*A China Daily report quoted Yury Slyusar, president of Russia’s United Aircraft Corp, as saying the agreement would initially outline profit sharing and responsibilities, with technical requirements to be decided on by March next year.*

“So far, the project has proceeded well, and we plan to determine the technical requirements, specifications and outsourcing methods in March,” Slyusar said.

Russia’s United Aircraft Corp. and Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China (Comac), are discussing a work plan and obligations as they seek to firm up a memorandum of understanding signed in May 2014.

United Aircraft plans to target market share beyond just Russia and China, a company spokesperson said last month.

Boeing Co. said last month it expects China’s aviation industry to withstand the current financial market turbulence and forecast the nation’s carriers will almost triple their commercial aircraft fleet over the next two decades.

China needs 6,330 new planes worth $950 billion in the next two decades, the planemaker said.

China is forecast to surpass the US as the world’s largest aircraft market within the next 20 years.

China is also forecast to become the world’s biggest air travel market, according to Boeing.

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## TaiShang

*Checkmate*

29.09.2015
*
Russian President Vladimir Putin’s message at the UN General Assembly was stark; either sovereign states get together in a broad coalition against all forms of terror, and the principle of statehood is respected as enshrined in the UN charter - or there will be chaos.*

This UN General Assembly revealed that the Obama administration's perpetual newspeak does not cut it anymore. A review of UN speeches by both Putin and Obama is almost painful to watch. Putin acted like a serious global statesman. Obama acted like a poseur flunking a screen test.

Putin's key talking points could not but be easily accessible to the Global South — his prime audience, much more than the industrialized West. 

1) The export of color — or monochromatic — revolutions is doomed.

2) The alternative to the primacy of statehood is chaos. This implies that the Assad system in Syria may be immensely problematic, but it's the only game in town. The alternative is ISIS/ISIL/Daesh barbarism. There's no credible "moderate opposition" — as there was not in NATO-"liberated" Libya. 

3) Only the UN — as flawed as it may be — is a guarantor of peace and security in our imperfect, _realpolitik_ geopolitical environment. 

*Gotta slay those myths*

Washington believed its own Arab Spring myth in 2011, betting that after Tunis and Cairo, Damascus would fall in a flash.

The Beltway believed its own myth of "moderate rebels" taking power.

The Beltway did not listen to Syrian minorities warning about the danger of an extremist Sunni/Salafi-jihadi take over.

Thus the current Syrian tragedy; the end result of a formidably complex power play, political and religious, Syrian, regional and global.

ISIS/ISIL/Daesh — for all its barbarism — may eventually win a few battles, but it won't control the whole of "Syraq".

To defeat the cancer, there's only one possibility: a real military campaign conducted by a real coalition including the US, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia.

Washington though never joins a coalition that it cannot control at will.

Thus a possible road map of what may lie ahead — as debated by Obama and Putin, face to face, for 90 minutes in New York; a two-headed coalition, one led by the US, the other led by Russia, but "coordinating" on the ground. 

Still, Moscow will be struggling to form a wide-ranging coalition duly approved by the UN. 

The task is immense. "Syraq" will have to be reconstituted.

That implies an Iraq acceptable for all Iraqis — and that's impossible to accomplish without Iran. And a Syria acceptable to all Syrians — and that's impossible without Iran and Russia.

Washington after all would have never been able to accomplish both in the first place. The Empire of Chaos specializes in nation breaking, not nation building. 

*Gotta slay that dragon*

Gorbachev wanted to integrate the USSR in the European family — aiming for a Europe from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Post-Soviet Russia though was not even invited to enter the house. What happened was NATO colonization of the former Soviet space.

Gorbachev dreamed that the West would share peace dividends with Russia. What Russia got instead was a neoliberal shock — and a humiliated society treated as a loser of the Cold War. Exceptionalism prevailed.

Under Putin, Russia tried once again a strategic partnership with the EU. Does anyone remember Sergey Lavrov as late as 2011 swearing that modernization of Russia was ready to go as a pan-European project, just as in the time of Peter the Great?

Yet by 2007, Putin had changed the game, and was ready to openly contest the unipolar "order" — and slowly but surely project Russia back to the geopolitical limelight.

Post-Ukraine, still under sanctions, but armed with a strategic partnership with China, the time for a checkmate is now. 

In New York, Putin even proposed the lineaments of a New World Order. The genuine article, not that "vision thing" concocted by Daddy Bush post-collapse of the USSR. 

It would be an equitable, fair world order — where state sovereignty is respected, sanctions are meaningless, NATO ceases to expand ad infinitum and exceptionalism does not apply. 

The devil will be in the (many) details, of course. For instance, if a coalition to fight ISIS/ISIL/Daesh is forged and blessed by the UN, it will need the — virtually impossible — cohabitation of Sunnis and Shi'ites.

And in the near future, Brussels will have to tame visceral internal antagonism to have the European Union interacting with the Russia-led Eurasia Economic Union (EEU), which by that time will be totally integrated with the China-led New Silk Roads.

What's certain — for the overwhelming majority of the Global South — is that the Empire of Chaos made a mess everywhere, from Northern Africa and Southwest Asia to Russia's western borderlands.

Putin now rides into the hellish mess ready to slay the dragon of chaos — and the machinations of the Empire of Chaos. His sword? The UN. No wonder checkmated neocons, neoliberalcons and "humanitarian" imperialists can barely conceal their apoplexy.

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## TaiShang

*There Is No Folly to Russia's Pivot to China*

It just isn't a panacea - but it was never intended as such.

Recently, there has been no shortage of highly pessimistic commentaries published &republished, pointing out the supposed “follies” of Russia’s eastern pivot, by highlighting this year’s decline in Sino-Russian trade, China’s stock market volatility, and its supposedeconomic “weakness”. 

The conclusion implied by these articles is clear: “Russia’s economic pivot to China is failing, because increased economic cooperation has not mitigated Russia’s recent economic woes, or the effect of sanctions. China cannot save Russia, and the latter must continue depending on the West.”

This is essentially a straw-man conclusion. One thing should be plainly apparent through even a casual examination of Russia’s biggest recent commercial agreements with China: most of these arrangements with China were NEVER INTENDED to offset the impact of Russia’s current recession, but rather to position Russia’s economy for greater long-term diversification and upward mobility on the global economic value chain.

The deal which draws the most frequent & recent use of this straw-man is the $400 billion Sino-Russian ‘Power of Siberia’ gas deal. What is often overlooked is the fact that implementation was not set to take place until 2018 in the earliest scenario, and more likely closer to 2020 given potential construction delays.

Even then, this is a long-term arrangement that spans 30 years – which at best comes to about $13.4 billion of revenue per year. Bottom line, offsetting the immediate (’14-’16) economic pain of the recession and sanctions was NEVER the intent of this deal, and should not be a success metric.

Another deal that has come under plenty of media fanfare is China’s involvement in the Moscow-Kazan high-speed rail. Again, the earliest completion date cited is 2018, meaning Russia’s economy will not reap any productivity gains from faster transportation at least until then.

From an investment point of view, the immediate economic impact is even more negligible. China will partially finance this HSR route, which could total $5 billion over the next 3 years; this means an addition of $1.6-1.7 billion per year into Russia’s economy, which amounts to a paltry ~0.084% of Russia’s $2 trillion GDP.

A third attention-worthy agreement is the Sino-Russian joint-development of wide-body airliners, an endeavor that would usually take 8-20 years before bearing any fruit, if the Boeing 777 is an reasonable benchmark.

Finally, there is the Sino-Russian business incubator in Skolkovo, along with Russia’s plan to establish a Skolkovo branch in Vladivostok. From a pure probability standpoint, this is an endeavor that may NEVER yield any direct benefits. 

75-90% of all startups and small businesses are destined to fail, most of those that do not fail after 1-2 years will never have billion-dollar valuations or high-profiled IPOs; we should not expect startups from Skolkovo to perform differently.

Given that most strategic Sino-Russian initiatives will NOT bear fruit for many years, does that mean they are “failures”, or should not be pursued? The answer to that question really depends on how Russians perceive their own strategic priorities and their own future.

It is in Russia’ interests to diversify its trade portfolio, and eventually move away from being Europe’s resource appendage? Is it in Russia’s interests to modernize its transportation infrastructure, so as to stimulate economic development in its eastern regions? 

Is it in Russia’s interests to move up the international business value chain, from being solely a natural resources exporter to a competitor in high-tech, high-margin industries such as commercial aviation and robotics? Is it in Russia’s interests to foster entrepreneurship and innovation in an increasingly knowledge-based global economy? Is it in Russia’s interest to be an economically sovereign and independent country?

If the answer to the questions above is ‘yes’, then there is NO DOUBT that Russia should continue these initiatives with China, and continue its eastern pivot strategy.

The harsh reality is that with the exception of a few situations, there is relatively little China can do to ease the pain of current low energy prices and economic sanctions. This is the inevitable consequence of Russia’s 20-year+ over-reliance on resource exports to Europe for its economic development.

In the face of this reality, Russia has two choices: instant gratification by acquiescing to the West in the hope of short-term relief, and continuing down the path of ‘business-as-usual’, or partner with China to diversify and modernize its economy. 

The latter involves far more hard work and risk-taking, but is also a far more viable way to move Russia on a path of genuine sovereignty and stable economic modernization.

@vostok , @Project 4202

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## beijingwalker

*China Joining Russia In Syria Brings Risks Of World War*

10/09/2015 06:51 PM E


*American Decline: *Chinese forces head to Syria to join with Russia in filling Obama's power vacuum and purportedly fight the Islamic State. A false move involving NATO member Turkey could mean world war.

Russian and Chinese military sources now confirm that Chinese warships are en route to the Middle East to get in on some of the action of humiliating the U.S.

In just a week and a half, Moscow has upended the dynamics of power in the Mideast by taking on the role that President Obama relinquished: acting like a superpower in a regional conflict that has implications extending far beyond the region.

Russian ruler Vladimir Putin launched airstrikes against rebels opposing the terrorist Assad regime in Syria, first with a modest force to gauge the U.S. response and perhaps pull out if threatened. Seeing no threat, Putin has been intensifying Russian operations, even sending in Spetsnaz special forces troops.

China's entry means two major powers are stepping in to do what the U.S. was unwilling to do against IS.

It's a lesson in how fast the tables can turn when America displays weakness — losing wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and proving to be ineffective against IS despite fighting it for a year and three months now.

Our commander-in-chief even admits that he has no strategy against the monstrous caliphate that his very own policies of weakness brought into being.

What is apparently happening now was inconceivable before Obama sent America spiraling into decline: our two Cold War adversaries uniting militarily in an effort that will ultimately give them dominance, at our expense, in the most strategically important part of the world, the oil-rich and politically fragile Middle East.

You can't carry out your objectives there over the course of years with the most advanced military in the world? Fine. Watch us do it, Moscow and Beijing are telling us with their actions. And in months, or perhaps only weeks.

How the next president will dig us out of this hole is hard to fathom. A new post-Cold War Brezhnev Doctrine could come into effect, in which Moscow and Beijing warn that they will not let the U.S. reassert its influence in countries they've "liberated" in the Mideast.

If that turns out to be the case, America will be risking war with both Russia and China if it even tries to return to its pre-Obama influence in the region.

Moreover, with Russia already more than once "accidentally" violating the airspace of Turkey, a NATO member in spite of its current anti-U.S. government, the dangers — Moscow and Beijing engaging in incursions or other provocative actions on the Syria-Turkish border — are clear.

All NATO nations are obligated by treaty to defend against an attack on any individual NATO nation. If Russia and China see what they can get away with, they could expose NATO as impotent.

Or, worse, they could trigger World War III.

Neither Obama nor the many millions who voted for him twice ever thought his policies of weakness could make things this bad.
China Joining Russia In Syria Brings Risks Of World War - Investors.com

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great gesture by Chinese to help , with global harmony in these difficult moments when some are arming ISIS

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## punit

china is not going to join.


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## superpower

Together they will end the crisis .i hope


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## Fireurimagination

Damn and the loser of this world war would be innocent syrian people


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

There is no cities anymore all destroyed thank to financing from outside 

Like heck ... BRAND NEW TOYATA thundra trucks for ISIS whats up with the supply group 

Pakistan has suzuki pickups


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## HongWu002

China's antiterror czar suddenly traveled to Russia to discuss PLA ground troops attack against ETIM bases in Syria.

国家反恐领导小组副组长孙建国上将突然访俄_军事_中华网

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## cirr

China can at least provide，free of charge，the Syrian government with a few sets of UCAV systems。

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## mandrom

Fireurimagination said:


> Damn and the loser of this world war would be innocent syrian people



people of west,middle east,asia


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## Azizam

The handful of shiny new buildings sprouting out of a barren landscape of dusty steppe and rusting shipping containers is an incongruous sight. One of them, a sparkling tower of marble and glass, is empty aside from a duty-free shop on the ground floor. Next door, a shop sells Russian honey and Chinese ladies’ shoes, displayed side by side.

This is Khorgos, the dividing line between China and Kazakhstan. And while it may not look like much now, China has ambitions to transform this border point at what was once the edge of the Russian empire into a new gateway to the west.

“East meets west. It’s here. This is the linking point,” says Hicham Belmaachi, commercial director of a newly-built dry port at the border, designed to speed up the transit of Chinese goods via Xinjiang on their way to central Asia, Europe or the Middle East.

Khorgos is just one of a ribbon of projects across the region designed to help realise China’s dreams of a new Silk Road — a plan backed by President Xi Jinping that would firmly stamp his country’s authority and influence from Xi’ian to Europe.

With promises of tens of billions of dollars in investment, the Chinese strategy, if realised, could reshape the former Soviet economies of central Asia, which have been battered by falling commodity prices and recession in Russia.

But increasing economic dependence on China at a time of uncertainty over the health of its economy is not universally popular in the central Asian states. And the launch of a regional integration drive has put Beijing on a collision course with Moscow, which has been lobbying countries to join its Eurasian Economic Union. It also raises the stakes for Beijing: as China invests more in this fragile region bordering Afghanistan, it is finding it harder to resist being drawn into political and military affairs.

“This is China’s inadvertent empire. It’s a part of the world where they are clearly becoming the most significant geopolitical player,” says Raffaello Pantucci, a specialist on the region at the Royal United Services Institute. “I don’t think they’ve given consideration to what that means in the longer term.”

Two years ago, Mr Xi stood in Kazakhstan’s futuristic capital of Astana and invoked the memory of Zhang Qian, the diplomat who helped open China’s trade with the world in the 2nd century BC.

“As I stand here and look back at that episode of history, I could almost hear the camel bells echoing in the mountains and see the wisp of smoke rising from the desert,” the Chinese leader said. Describing Kazakhstan as a “magic land”, he called for the creation of a new “economic belt” along the old trade routes.

“The ancient Silk Road has gained fresh vitality,” he said.

Others see parallels with a more recent period in history: the tussle for influence between the Russian and British empires in the 19th century. As China expands its influence in parts of the former Soviet Union, central Asia could become the focus of a new “Great Game” between Beijing, Moscow and possibly Iran, Turkey and western countries.

But as western interest in the region recedes with the military drawdown from Afghanistan, and Russia’s ability to invest is curtailed by its own economic recession, the Great Game in the region may turn out to be one-sided. Over the past two decades China has quietly become the pre-eminent economic power in the region; now many central Asian governments greet the prospect of Chinese investment as their last chance to stave off a downturn that could threaten political stability.

Trade between China and the five post-Soviet central Asian states — Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan — has risen from $1.8bn in 2000 to $50bn in 2013, according to IMF data, before dropping slightly amid the decline in commodity prices. That means China has surpassed Russia in recent years to become the region’s single largest trade partner.

“If you look at investment needs in the region, then Chinese participation is very important to say the least,” says Agris Preimanis, central Asia economist at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, a major western investor in the region. “They are increasingly active in all sectors and you just cannot see western capital or Russian capital taking their place.”

In Kazakhstan, Chinese companies own somewhere between one-fifth and one-quarter of the country’s oil production — about the same proportion as the national oil company. In Turkmenistan, holder of the world’s fourth-largest gas reserves, China has replaced Russia’s Gazprom as the dominant buyer of Turkmen gas, accounting for 61 per cent of exports last year. Much of that shift is thanks the Central Asia-China gas pipeline, opened in 2009, which provides the region’s energy-rich economies with a major export route not controlled by Moscow. In the region’s poorer countries, China has also become an economic power. Chinese companies have invested in oil refineries and cement plants in Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, and in roads and tunnels across the region.

Data on the scale of Chinese investment are sketchy, as much is done at a bilateral level between Chinese state banks, such as China Development Bank or China Eximbank, and central Asian governments or state companies.

But in one example, the Tajik deputy finance minister last year told the FT that Beijing would invest $6bn in Tajikistan over the next three years — a figure equivalent to two-thirds of the country’s annual gross domestic product.

This economic dominance means that often it seems that China, not Russia, is now the most important patron of central Asian governments. After Kazakhstan allowed its currency to float freely in August, triggering an immediate devaluation of more than a fifth, its first priority was to reassure Beijing.

“Where is the first visit of the Kazakh president after this decision? Where was the first commitment that all the investments are in place? China,” says Kairat Kelimbetov, the central bank governor.

When Tajikistan, the region’s poorest country, was running low on central bank reserves this summer, it signed a swap agreement with the People’s Bank of China worth Rmb3.2bn ($500m).

It is not always smooth travelling on the new Silk Road. In a region that has traditionally felt greater cultural affinities with Russia and Turkey, politicians are frequently suspicious of China. A proposal for China to lease a large area of land for agriculture triggered rare public protests in Kazakhstan in 2010.

Dosym Satpayev, a Kazakh political scientist who heads the Almaty-based Risk Assessment Group, warns: “Any attempt by China to increase influence in Kazakhstan will awake more anti-China sentiment.”

While many see the new Silk Road as more of a formalisation of China’s presence in the region than a specific plan, the fanfare surrounding it has raised hackles among those who see central Asia as part of Russia’s “sphere of influence”. Zhao Huasheng, director of the Centre for Russia and Central Asia studies at Fudan University, says that when the Silk Road strategy was announced, Russian officials saw it as a challenge to Moscow’s own regional integration project, the Eurasian Economic Union.

“China provided a lot of explanation,” he says. “China sees the projects developing in parallel, in a co-operative way.”

In the past, Russia blocked attempts to increase the reach of another Chinese-led regional group, the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, which includes all the central Asian states apart from Turkmenistan.

Yet when Mr Xi visited Moscow in May, the two countries signed a declaration on co-operation between the Eurasian Economic Union and the Silk Road project. Alexander Gabuev, senior associate at the Carnegie Moscow Center, a think-tank, says the deal was the result of “painful internal discussions” in Moscow. Analysts say the unspoken agreement between Moscow and Beijing appears to be that Russia will cede economic dominance in central Asia to China, but maintain its military and security heft in the region.

“What the Kremlin is hoping for is a division of labour between Moscow and Beijing in central Asia,” says Mr Gabuev. “In this grand scheme, China will be the major driver for economic development, while Moscow will remain the dominant hard security provider.”

Liu Yazhou, a general in the People’s Liberation Army, called central Asia “a rich piece of cake given to today’s Chinese people by heaven” in a 2010 essay that became a kind of manifesto for China’s expansionist policy in the region.

Analysts see two broad motivations behind the dramatic increase in Chinese investment in the region that started in the 1990s.

First, as China’s commodity consumption skyrocketed, central Asia was a nearby source of oil, gas, uranium, copper and gold supplies. Second, Beijing wanted co-operation from the newly-independent states to keep its restive Xinjiang region in check. Xinjiang’s native Uighurs have much in common with the cultures, languages and religion of central Asia, and there is a large Uighur minority in the region.

But China may find it hard to stay out of security matters as its economic interests in the region increase. It has already started providing some military aid to Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. “Even though this is an economic project it could create political impact or influence,” says Prof Zhao. “I think China will get more involved in security in the region. But it doesn’t mean China will be involved in that region militarily.”

General Liu writes of the cultural affinities between Xinjiang and the peoples of central Asia, noting: “The advantageous factor is that they all derive great benefits from economic co-operation with China.”

With the launch of the new Silk Road, analysts see a shift in investments towards infrastructure and other sectors. “If before Chinese investment was directed at the oil and gas sector, now it will be in infrastructure, industry, agriculture, tourism and other areas,” says Ding Xiaoxing, director of central Asia studies at the China Institute for Contemporary International Relations, a government-linked think-tank.

At Khorgos, the Kazakh-Chinese border crossing, this shift is becoming reality. Rows of gleaming new railway tracks stretch into the distance, ready to handle ever-increasing volumes of Chinese cargo. Mr Belmaachi boasts that his team can shift a trainload of cargo from a Chinese to a Kazakh train — the two countries’ railways have different-sized gauges — in just 47 minutes.

The state railway company, Kazakhstan Temir Zholy (KTZ), has invested 245bn tenge ($900m) to build the dry port, which started operations in August and launches officially next Monday. China’s Jiangsu province in September announced an agreement to invest $600m over five years in logistics and industrial zones around Khorgos.

Darryl Hadaway, a former regional head of Deloitte who is starting a logistics business focused on Kazakhstan, says Khorgos can become a hub for regional and international trade, serving the role that Atlanta does in the US.

Already, the number of containers travelling by train between China and Europe via Kazakhstan has increased 18 times between 2011 and 2014, and is on track to double again this year, according to KTZ. The route is attractive to electronics companies such as HP — which has helped to pioneer it — for whom the shorter transit time compared to shipping by sea is worth paying for. The journey from China to Europe takes 14-16 days, compared with a month or more by sea, although the cost of shipping one container is some $9,000 compared with $3,000 by sea.

KTZ is hoping to capture 6 per cent of the trade between China and Europe by 2020; currently 98 per cent goes by sea.

“Companies in Europe and China have never studied this option in detail. People were really busy shipping by sea and not focusing on this route,” says Mr Belmaachi. “I really think this is the next big thing for the supply chain.”

Increasing the number of trains plying the route may also help to open up new trade routes for perishable products, like fruit and vegetables, says Mr Hadaway. “There is a whole range of products coming out of Asia that have never been able to access this market.”

http://m.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d35d34ca-6e70-11e5-aca9-d87542bf8673.html

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## Raphael

> “What the Kremlin is hoping for is a division of labour between Moscow and Beijing in central Asia,” says Mr Gabuev. “In this grand scheme, China will be the major driver for economic development, while Moscow will remain the dominant hard security provider.”



I absolute approve of these blueprints for the future Central Asian order. Russia should retain its political and military sphere of influence in the region. In return, China's should be permitted a robust economic footprint in the region. Above all, the two should cooperate to shut out the meddling US interloper.

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## topgun047

I hope the Indian govt. launches a "Me too" policy for Central Asia soon.
Can you guess the reference ?


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## Zsari

Raphael said:


> I absolute approve of these blueprints for the future Central Asian order. Russia should retain its political and military sphere of influence in the region. In return, China's should be permitted a robust economic footprint in the region. Above all, the two should cooperate to shut out the meddling US interloper.


 
Indeed. A lot of writing in the west attempting to drive a wedge between Russia and China, either via the yellow peril into Siberia threat or theorizing the Chinese dominance in central Asia. The fact is that China has no need to challenge Russia in central Asia. As long as the region is stable and Chinese goods are able to transit through safely & reliably, Chinese interest are being served to its fullest already, and having a non-hostile power paying to provide the security for the region is icing on the cake.

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## Place Of Space

Zsari said:


> Indeed. A lot of writing in the west attempting to drive a wedge between Russia and China, either via the yellow peril into Siberia threat or theorizing the Chinese dominance in central Asia. The fact is that China has no need to challenge Russia in central Asia. As long as the region is stable and Chinese goods are able to transit through safely & reliably, Chinese interest are being served to its fullest already, and having a non-hostile power paying to provide the security for the region is icing on the cake.



The cooperation is mainly about energy and anti-terrorism. Central Asia is a land-blocked area, America is very hard to play games here, only if they want to spend huge military expenditure to deliver army, aircrafts. The American military base in Kyrgyzstan has been proved an failture test.

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## Zsari

Place Of Space said:


> The cooperation is mainly about energy and anti-terrorism. Central Asia is a land-blocked area, America is very hard to play games here, only if they want to spend huge military expenditure to deliver army, aircrafts. The American military base in Kyrgyzstan has been proved an failture test.


 
If the US want to pay for the security of Afghanistan in blood and dollar for example, its China's gain as well. American's strength is in its naval force, not in its army, and with geography of the region, it will be suicidal for the US to use that as a platform in attacking China. As long as Russia is there to keep the goods and pipeline flowing, I would not be concerned at all.

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## opruh

Strong partnership between China and Russia is needed to counter america's negative influence to the world.


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## oproh

For me, the most important partner for China is Russia and vice versa. Great to see that the cooperation between these two Great Powers is continuously flourishing.

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## TaiShang

oproh said:


> For me, the most important partner for China is Russia and vice versa. Great to see that the cooperation between these two Great Powers is continuously flourishing.



Always concise and to the point, my friend！

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## TaiShang

*China Opens Cargo Train Service from Central City to Russia*

A freight-train service between central China's Hubei Province, and Moscow opened on Saturday.

The first train left Hubei's capital Wuhan on Saturday. It will take 12 days to make the 9,779-kilometer trip. 

The train with 41 cars is carrying machinery and electronic products, which are mainly manufactured in Wuhan. 

On its return journey, it will carry timber, according to Wu Guangming, general manager of Wuhan Asia-Europe Logistic Co., Ltd.

Wuhan began regular cargo train services to Europe via northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region in April, 2014.

Several Chinese cities, including Chongqing, Chengdu, Changsha, Hefei, Yiwu, Suzhou and Harbin, have launched similar freight train services to Europe so far.






@AndrewJin , @cirr , @vostok

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## AndrewJin

Great news! I hope Russia can open an consulate in Wuhan soon, there is not a single Russian consulate in Central China. We have all P5 in Wuhan except Russia.

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## TaiShang



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## Raphael

Russia and China: Beware the Budding Eurasian Colossus? | The National Interest

Lyle J. Goldstein

As Russia’s unexpected military intervention in Syria has dominated headlines across the globe in recent weeks, more than a few media outlets have speculated on whether Chinese forces could enter the fray. While that particular “twist” on the story remains extremely unlikely, the question is not entirely outlandish. After all, it was only a few months ago that a Chinese naval squadron was in the Black Sea exercising with the Russian fleet. Moreover, the Chinese Navy’s profile has been steadily rising in the Middle East as it sent its first flotilla into the Persian Gulf in the fall of 2014, has also conducted competent evacuation operations in Yemen in 2014 and Libya in 2011, while the PLA Navy maintains its continuous anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden as well. Major foreign and defense policy dilemmas await Beijing as it continues to plot out the future of its “one road, one belt” – China’s own strategic “pivot” to the west.

Nevertheless, Russian President Vladimir Putin’s continued success at keeping the West off balance with his Syrian gambit also raises the urgency of understanding the trajectory of the China-Russia relationship. For years, Western analysts have suggested that the Moscow-Beijing tie could not amount to much because it is widely regarded as purely a relationship of convenience suffused with mutual suspicion. Over the last decade, moreover, this skepticism has seemed to prove itself repeatedly, for example in the various bilateral energy projects that have moved slowly at best or in the somewhat indolent policy initiatives of the jointly managed Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). But Western strategists are, nevertheless, right to watch this relationship closely since a major strengthening of Russia-China relations could develop into the Eurasian “colossus” (albeit with two capitals rather than one) that geopolitics gurus have long warned about.

Signs of a steadily enhancing Russia-China partnership are quite readily visible. Reciprocal visits by the two Presidents to observe one another’s victory celebrations (and the conspicuous lack of Western leaders at either event) seemed to demonstrate a shared contemporary isolation as well as the common history of suffering catastrophic losses in the enormous conflagration of the Second World War. A recent article in the prestigious Chinese military journal, _中国军事科学_ [China Military Science] highlights that shared history in exploring “China-Soviet Union Cooperation during the World Anti-Fascist War.” In a chapter of WWII that is rarely discussed in the West, this article explains that Moscow did impressively provide China with almost 1,000 aircraft (and accompanying volunteer pilots) in the four years after the Nanjing Massacre in December 1937. There are numerous reasons why such extraordinary aid is not widely discussed. For Moscow, this lavish aid may appear as a significant strategic miscalculation in the years before the Nazi onslaught when the Red Army could no doubt have used those same aircraft as a vital reserve force. But in China, Soviet aid during WWII was not discussed thoroughly for many decades, because much of the aid flowed to the Nationalist Chinese rather than the Communists, and more particularly because of the legacy of the Soviet threat dating from the 1960s made such historical revelations a violation of prevailing Maoist, anti-Soviet orthodoxy.

While that history is indeed interesting and relevant, the focus of this edition of _Dragon Eye_ is instead on the contemporary China-Russia relationship. For that “strategic triangle” made famous by Henry Kissinger’s diplomatic pirouettes of the early 1970s, a fascinating view is offered in a mid-2015 edition of _俄罗斯东欧中亚研究_ [Research on Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia], published by the China Academy of Social Sciences. That journal has an interesting survey of Western writings on the evolving China-Russia relationship. Such literature reviews are quite common in Chinese social science journals, and this one is admirably complete, citing as it does, some notably solid analyses published in this venerable forum on the subject of the China-Russia relationship. But this Chinese literature review suggests that most Western analyses are surficial in nature and also are rather pessimistic, “… 唱衰中俄关系 …” […crooning about the decline of China-Russia relations …].

The survey develops an interesting time-line for the development of the Russia-China relationship in the post-Cold War world, starting with Moscow’s clear statement back during the 1995-96 Taiwan Crisis that its “one China policy” would not change. While the wars in the Balkans did push Russia and China closer together, this Chinese analysis relates that Russia-China relations “confronted the challenge of the 9/11 events,” because Russia appeared, for a time at least, to lean strongly toward the U.S. Interestingly, it is noted that Beijing did not explicitly support Moscow during the 2008 war with Georgia. This analysis also observes a seeming inclination of then-President Dmitry Medvedev to “亲美疏中” [kiss the U.S., while neglecting China]. According to this analysis, however, the tightening of the Moscow-Beijing link was well under way prior to the Ukraine Crisis. In particular, the author cites the West’s 2011 intervention in Libya as a major turning point. Nor did either the Bear or the Dragon appreciate reverberations of the “Arab Spring” into their own respective regions. Indeed, their common perception was that the West was ever more eager to see regime change in both Russia and China. An imperative to halt these trends was suggested in Sino-Russian diplomatic coordination in mid-2012 to prevent UN sanctions against the Assad regime in Damascus. Additional evidence, of course, is that Putin’s first trip abroad after assuming the Russian Presidency again in 2012 was China, while the opposite journey was made as Xi’s inaugural journey abroad as Chinese President back in 2013. Nevertheless, there is little doubt that the Ukraine Crisis has also helped to usher in a “new normal” in Russia-China relations. This Chinese analysis demonstrates a keen awareness that Western analysts are now seriously concerned lest the relationship evolves into a full-up “军事政治联盟” [military-political alliance].

The Chinese survey dutifully records much skepticism in Western appraisals regarding the possibility of genuine Russia-China strategic coordination. For example, one well-known Western academic is quoted as suggesting that Russia-China relations “are full of weakness.” It is recorded that other Western analysts emphasize both the limitations of the partnership, and also its “asymmetric” nature. On the latter point, it is suggested that there is a growing “实力差距” [capabilities gap] between the two powers and there is also a perception in the West that within the bilateral relationship that Beijing is increasingly in the driver’s seat. Indeed, one reason such literature surveys are popular among Chinese specialists is they may allow Chinese specialists to actually articulate concerns that are not quite politically correct in either Beijing (or Moscow for that matter). There is some discussion of the legacy of hostility and mistrust that may still linger from the armed confrontation that occurred on the border back in the middle of the Cold War. Interestingly, the analysis observes that this mistrust may “加上文化上俄罗斯一直对西方的认同感” [reinforce the degree to which Russia always identifies with the West on a cultural level]. To give a relatively concrete example of the related difficulties, this study mentions, for example, how Chinese copying of Russian weapons systems has caused Russia to be increasingly wary of exporting armaments technology to China. Meanwhile, it is pointed out that Chinese brace against such arms technology limitations, since it seems Russia is just seeking to maintain its edge in military technology over China. For this and other reasons, the Chinese analysis concludes that Western specialists are generally dismissive of the so-called “专制主义轴心” [authoritarian axis] and view the relationship as a kind of “bargaining chip” for both Moscow and Beijing in their respective relations with the West. The piece concludes with the rather dark view that many Westerners concerned about Russia still view China (vice Russia) as the “真正的战略对手” [the real strategic opponent]. The Chinese author observes, moreover, that the West is always aiming to “use China to pin down Russia and to employ Russia to pin down China …”

Watching Putin’s Syrian strategy unfold, along with all the related Western perturbations, many Chinese diplomats are sure to advocate for that most classic of Chinese stratagem: “坐山观虎斗” [sit on the mountain and watch the tigers fight]. However, Western analysts may yet be too skeptical regarding the development of Russia-China relations. As suggested above, various periods in history have seen very high levels of China-Russian collaboration, to include – lest we forget – the very founding of the Chinese Communist Party. It is not at all clear, as is often suggested, that antagonism is the “natural state” of affairs in China-Russia relations. The dual combination of the “rebalance,” in tandem with the West’s still evolving strategic response to the Ukraine Crisis, may yet prove sufficient to solidify a geopolitically significant Eurasian counterpoise.

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## TaiShang

*Russia and China: The Dawning of a New Monetary System?*
Global Research, October 25, 2015






_*
Note: *This article was originally published in January 2015._

The_ statement by Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi on 22 December 2014: “If the Russian side needs it, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity” – is a clear testimony that Russia and China have entered into an economic alliance which will be stronger than the incessant ruble and petrol devaluation manipulations by Washington, aided by the European puppets. _

China, leading member of the BRICS, is lining up the bloc of the BRICS and that of the SCO – and their currencies – to support Russia in need. Currency swaps between Russia (ruble) and China (yuan) for an initial US$ 25 billion equivalent have already been implemented, to allow direct transactions between the two countries. Similar swaps are under way between China and Russia with other countries, primarily the BRICS and the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization) members – including the soon to become new members – Iran, Pakistan, India (also a BRICS member) and Mongolia – and possibly in some not too distant future also strategically located NATO member Turkey.

In other words, a large junk of hydrocarbons will as of immediately no longer be traded in US (petro) dollars, but in rubles and yuans and their partners respective local currencies. This will reduce worldwide demand for the petro dollar.

The US is able to maintain pressure on other currencies, currently the ruble, only as long as the petro dollar remains the major world reserve currency. This is the main reason why Washington gets away with a seven-fold indebted dollar (i.e. total outstanding and uncovered commitments are currently more than 7 times higher than the US GDP (US$ 17.6 trillion, 2014 est. – vs. US$ 128 trillion of unmet obligations); making the US worldwide the most indebted country – by far.

Once the demand for the (petro) dollar fades – as hydrocarbons are no longer dealt in dollars – the value of the dollar will decline and at worst may result in hyperinflation in the dollar economies, including those closely linked to the US economy.

In the meantime, Russia has nothing to fear, since the ruble is really not traded anywhere, except sold by western central banks to go along with Washington’s criminal scheme of attempting to destroy the Russian economy by flooding an imaginary ‘market’ with the Russian currency – which they will not achieve.

The Russian central bank is basically not interfering. Why? – Because Russia eventually will need rubles for its new trading alliance – and will buy the rubles back from the flooded market at rock-bottom prices, for artificially boosted dollars and euros and other western linked currencies. In a future Russia-China based monetary system these currencies would at least initially be of secondary or tertiary importance.

Letting the ruble ‘collapse’ is a superb strategy by the Maestro Chess player, Vladimir Putin. Western investors in Russian shares, mainly but not exclusively of hydrocarbon corporations, dropped also. Western investors became afraid and released their shares on the market – Russia’s treasury bought them back at low market prices, increasing their value instantly and – and on top of it Russia reaped the dividends of the newly Russian owned shares. According to a Spiegel Online article, Russia made at least 20 billion dollars’ worth of profit with this little gambit alone, plus she repatriated about 30% of foreign-held Russian petroleum shares.

Russia has foreign exchange reserves of close to half a trillion dollars equivalent, more than two times the rubles in circulation. Russia’s economy shows a pristine balance sheet with only about 15% debt to GDP, whereas the EU’s debt-GDP ratio is close to 100%.

Here comes the link to the US-Saudi manipulated oil price. It just fell to below US$ 50 / barrel, less than half of what it was in June 2014 (US$ 105 – WTI Crude). This criminal act of attempting to destroy sovereign nations’ economies is foremost directed at Russia, but is also meant to ‘punishes’ other non-aligned oil producers, like Venezuela and Iran. ‘Aligned’ oil producers’ suffering might be written off by the empire as collateral damage.

But not only. That’s perhaps where Obama miscalculated by shooting his own foot. At these prices domestic unemployment will soar especially in petrol producing states, like Texas and North Dakota. Hardest hit will be Texas. Last week, JPMorgan Chief Economist Michael Feroli, predicted, “We think Texas will, at the least, have a rough 2015 ahead, and is at risk of slipping into a regional recession.”

According to Zero Hedge, the US hydrocarbon industry and its nationwide ramification produce almost US$ 1.2 trillion of GDP (7%) and generates more than 9.3 million well-paying permanent jobs throughout the nation. Most affected by the free fall of petrol prices will be the higher cost shale production – the new source that gave the impetus to the oil renaissance 5 years ago. Texas and North Dakota will be the main losers, in terms of job losses and recession. But repercussions will be felt countrywide, as almost all industries are linked to hydrocarbon energy.

Obama may feel that the hike in unemployment may be a small collateral price to pay for ruining other economies around the world. Besides, overall the US economy may profit from lower prices – letting the rich get richer and the poor – well, we know that.

However, there is another element that Obama’s and his cronies’ shortsightedness did not foresee. The petro-dollar is highly dependent on trading hydrocarbons in dollars – following the 40-year old agreement with the Saudis as head of OPEC in turn for US military security and protection. This alone, the constant demand for US dollars by all nations who needed to trade hydrocarbons, propelled the dollar into a ‘permanent’ reserve currency – allowing Washington to print dollars at will and to become a financial hegemon.

No longer. These times are gone. Washington’s evil attempt to destroy all those who ‘are not with us’, catalyzed the transition. More than a year ago, Russia started selling her hydrocarbons in rubles and local currencies of her trading partners, like China and other BRICS countries. Today Russia is selling her hydrocarbon in gold – yes, in physical gold. The west did not count with the quick analytical thinking of Mr. Putin’s. He will accept artificially inflated dollars and then immediately exchange them for gold, thereby increasing Russia’s gold reserves dramatically. Already today, the ruble is backed by gold – a reality the west with its casino currencies is quiet about.

By artificially boosting the value of the dollar against the Euro and lowering the price of gold, the FED and its Wall Street mobsters intend to make the dollar more attractive, say, as the euro which, after all its MSM propagated economic mediocrity, is backed by a much more solid and stable economy than is that of the United States; especially in view of its huge potential to be able to deal with the east – Russia and the Xi Jinping’s announced new economic Silk Road, all the way from Frankfurt to Shanghai. – But this would be Europe’s call; a sovereign call by a sovereign union and by new leaders with backbone and common sense.

This is still an open decision. Although, it looks like – or should logically appear – that Europe is waking up. Even the most stubborn stooges of Washington are gradually seeing the light. Hungary and Poland, historically not great friends of Russia, are wondering whether they might not be better off with the east, rather than licking Obama’s boots. German business is angry about Merkel’s obsessiveness with Washington imposed ‘sanctions’. They see Russia as the trading partner of the future, as it has been until Washington didn’t succeed in Ukraine – today an almost hopeless but still murderous basket case – and wanted to crush Vladimir Putin and his country. Even the spine and brainless Hollande is responding to France’s business – ‘sanctions’ – enough is enough.

Where does that leave Washington? – One move away from checkmate. Washington’s criminal attempt to destroy Russia’s economy has been largely irrelevant and self-destructive. In the meantime and as Russia’s gold reserves increase, Russia has established an alternative SWIFT system. It is currently being tested internally but could go global within a few months – so that any country wanting to avoid the corrupt dollar casino scheme could use the new system for international monetary exchanges.

That combined with ever more countries willing and daring to trade their hydrocarbons in their own currencies or currencies other than the dollar, will further lower demand on the petro-dollar. In addition, under their economic alliance, Russia and China may soon launch a new currency, a basket of currencies that could be joined by other nations ready and willing to abandon the fraudulent western fiat scheme. Immediate candidates would be the other BRICS and the countries of the SCO.

*The system could function in the same way as did the Euro at the beginning – as a basket of currencies each valued according to some key indicators of its national economy. – Initially the new monetary system might be gold based – as opposed to the current fiat money with no backing whatsoever. In the long run, however, gold is not a stable or sustainable back-up for any currency. The intrinsic value of gold is only its industrial worth, currently less than 20% of its use. The combined economic output of the nations behind the joint currency – to a lesser degree the numerical growth oriented GDP, but rather social indicators such as public health, standard of education and environmental concerns, capacity of conflict resolution, of living in peace and harmony – might be more indicative of the strength of a sovereign’s currency than just gold or a straight GDP.*

Such a new monetary system may soon cover 25% to one third of the world economy, thereby becoming fully autonomous. The petro-dollar would further lose its stature as world reserve. Ten years ago 90% of world reserves consisted of dollar-nominated securities. Today that ratio has shrunk to a mere 60%, as currencies like the Yuan is rapidly gaining ground as reserve money, especially in Asia. Even Australia has recently declared it will increase its Yuan holding.

The drop of the dollar as the world’s major reserve currency is Washington’s biggest nightmare, and has been for the last 15-20 years, when first Iran and then Iraq (Iraq’s oil for food program) and Venezuela threatened to sell their hydrocarbon in Euros. At that time this economically strategic move was not so much meant as an affront to the US, but rather a measure of security for their own economies, as worldwide trust in the US dollar was waning then and now.

This is considered one of the major reasons for the 2003 US invasion of Iraq – securing the petro dollar as trading currency – and the ensuing war, to take over all of Iraq’s hydrocarbon wells – and privatize them. It was also the key reason for Washington’s false flag accusation of Iran’s plans for manufacturing nuclear weapons. In the meantime this has been proven umpteen times as a lie, including by the 16 major US intelligent agencies.

Washington’s relentless aggression on Russia is of course part of the PNAC (Plan for a New American Century), to achieve full world hegemony, but at the same time Washington is desperate not to lose its dollar supremacy. The US is in a terminal quagmire. There is no way out. Washington is acting like a wild beast in its last throbs of live. The empire may be capable of destroying the world – including itself – just so that nobody may survive outside of the self-appointed Masters of the Universe.

The emergence of a new ‘eastern’, dollar detached monetary scheme is therefore becoming increasingly urgent.* One might ask, why hasn’t it happened before?*

The reasons’ might be manifold. The key players’ – Russia and China – *banking and exchange infrastructure might not have been ready.* But more likely,* to reduce to the extent possible the collateral economic damage a new monetary system may entail to the rest of the world. *After all, fair trading among sovereign nations is a noble objective for global peace.

@Economic superpower

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## Sanchez

It might be good to set up a SCO development bank and new silk road monetory fund, that would use RMB as main currency.

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## TaiShang

*CHINA ASCENDANT: $46 BILLION SPENT ON ‘NEW SILK ROAD’ IN CENTRAL ASIA*






23 Oct 20152

*China is investing heavily in a trade route that would open up transportation across its border with Pakistan.*

Up here on what is often referred to as the world’s highest paved border crossing, there still are not many signs that billions of dollars in investment — and goodwill — could soon flow across these peaks in the Karakorum Mountains.

At an elevation of more than 15,000 feet, yaks far outnumber cargo trucks crossing over Pakistan’s border with China. And just one border agent stands guard on the Pakistan side, when he hasn’t ducked into a steel shelter to avoid wind-whipped snow.

A few miles down the mountain into Pakistan, where the air is a bit thicker and the summer sun melts the snow, Mohammad Noor fulfills a generations-old family tradition: escorting more than 1,000 goats and sheep to summer pasture. This year, however, he keeps his footing by walking on a new section of Karakorum Highway, recently built by China. And with each step, Noor says, he feels as though he’s heading into the future.

“The young people now are more educated and don’t want to look after sheep and goats,” said Noor, 44. “The future is Pakistan and China.”

Noor was standing on China’s new gateway to the far-distant Arabian Sea, the spine of an ambitious project by Beijing in a country that has a history of frustrating the well-intentioned plans of others. Americans, disillusioned by decades of unfruitful involvement in Pakistan, are skeptical that China will have any more success here.

But Chinese President Xi Jinping is intent on extending China’s influence in Asia, confident that his country can avoid the old pitfalls and achieve a new economic and political predominance in the region.

Here, trucks carrying Chinese goods could soon begin a 1,700-mile descent through Pakistan, to a saltwater port where the freight will be put on ships bound for markets in Africa, the Middle East and Europe.

The journey will embody China’s efforts to re-create the old Silk Route that for centuries linked Asia to the Middle East, and brought wealth to both. And along the way, China will try to use its “Belt and Road” economic development strategy to lift Pakistan toward prosperity. It plans to spend $46 billion here on an array of projects.

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## TaiShang

*Trade, trains and e-commerce link China with Russia*
10-27-2015 15:20 BJT


Beijing and Moscow have drawn closer in recent years amidst the Russian economy spiraling down on account of U.S.-led sanctions that has caused a depreciation of its currency, the ruble.

Despite challenges, China continues to improve bilateral relations, via better diplomacy, trade and economic cooperation deals. Earlier this month, Harbin, capital of Helongjiang province, hosted the 2nd annual China-Russia Expo.

Nearly 10,000 business people from around the world were in attendance. Chinese and Russian business representatives gathered to discuss potential collaboration in the fields of electro-mechanical production, railways, forestry reserves, technical standards, mining, finance and tourism, as reported by ECNS (English-language China News Service).

*All aboard Wuhan-Moscow cargo train*

The expo highlighted stronger trade ties, which would mean the necessity for significant logistics upgrades. Accordingly last Saturday, a cargo freight train service between central China's Hubei province and Russia was launched. The 41-cars train departed from Wuhan to embark on a 9,779 km., 12-days-long journey to Moscow.

The train was loaded with goods mainly from Wuhan's industrial zone with items including machinery and electronics devices, while on its return trip, the train is expected to carry back Russian timber.

Wu Guang-ming, general manger of the Wuhan Asia-Europe Logistics Co., Ltd., pointed out that Chinese railways have boosted long-haul freight service to Europe through northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, starting in April 2014.

Mongolia, located between China and Russia, can expect to experience more trade traffic flowing through the country.

*China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor*

Mongolia stands to gain substantial benefits from rising trade and economic cooperation between Beijing and Moscow. The three nations are planning to construct an economic corridor to enhance cross-border transportation, communications and financial networks in the region.

Mongolia could witness a surge in tourism as well. The 1st China-Mongolia Expo was held last week in Hohhot, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region. Government officials have made agreements to initiate a China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor and to promote cross-border tourism.

10 projects, valued at over 1.4bn yuan ($US220 million) were signed, which is expected to jumpstart cross-border tourism route development, tourism personnel training along with hotels and resorts construction.

"Cross-border tourism is an important platform of the China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor," Wei Guonan, head of the Inner Mongolia Tourism Administration, told Xinhua news.

*E-commerce brings mutual benefits*

China and Mongolia have helped Russia overcome its current gloomy economic conditions. Additionally, China's e-commerce giants - particularly Alibaba - are providing online platforms for Russian traders to take advantage of the ruble’s devaluation.

According to China Economic Net, organic Russian food is growing in popularity with Chinese consumers. Wang Jiang-peng, general manager of Eshanghui, a private Russian food e-commerce firm, has already begun to cash in.

"Our WeChat platform was launched in mid-September and we now boast more than 800 traders distributing Russian goods," Wang said. "Our daily sales volume hit more than 100,000 yuan ($US 15,762) within 10 days."

The recent introduction in Shanghai of the China International Payments System (CIPS) would make it easier for cross-border funds to get bankwired into bank accounts in China, which is creating an added bonus for Russian e-commerce retailers and consumers.

*Looking Far East and beyond*

Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin has restructured the national economy to overcome recent market disruptions. He's focusing on the Far East to boost trade, while Russia's eastern region remains sparsely populated but rich in natural resources and in closer proximity with a prosperous China.

The Russian port city Vladivostok could be transformed into a vital link for rising China-Russia trade and business deals, which can set the tone for a shared happiness.

@senheiser , @vostok , @AndrewJin , @Shotgunner51 , @cnleio , @cirr

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## Shotgunner51

Good news!

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## TaiShang

*West Underestimates Sino- Russian Alliance, Neglects Historical Lessons*

09:55 27.10.2015
*
US hawks and neocons are concerned about Russia's further rapprochement with China, fearing that it could evolve into a powerful military alliance; should the US beware of the "Eurasian colossus?"*

Western geostrategists are closely watching the process of Sino-Russian rapprochement: some US skeptics are expressing doubts that the alliance has a bright future; other Western observers are beating drums over increasing cooperation between the Dragon and the Bear.

Interestingly enough, Chinese geostrategists in their turn are watching their watchers, analyzing scrupulously Western reports on Sino-Russian relations, Lyle J. Goldstein, Associate Professor in the China Maritime Studies Institute (CMSI) at the US Naval War College in Newport, noted.

"Signs of a steadily enhancing Russia-China partnership are quite readily visible. Reciprocal visits by the two Presidents to observe one another's victory celebrations (and the conspicuous lack of Western leaders at either event) seemed to demonstrate a shared contemporary isolation as well as the common history of suffering catastrophic losses in the enormous conflagration of the Second World War," Professor Goldstein wrote in his article for The National Interest.

Professor Goldstein noted that China and Russia currently have lots of shared political interests. A major turning point for Sino-Russian rapprochement was the NATO intervention in Libya in 2011, the professor remarked, citing Chinese analysts. The so-called "Arab Spring" and Ukrainian February coup of 2014 have accelerated the rapprochement process tremendously, he added.

"Additional evidence, of course, is that Putin’s first trip abroad after assuming the Russian Presidency again in 2012 was China, while the opposite journey was made as Xi’s inaugural journey abroad as Chinese President back in 2013," Goldstein underscored.

The professor hinted at the fact both China and Russia have a "legacy of hostility and mistrust" originating from the mid-Cold War period. According to Goldstein, this mistrust may potentially become a stumbling block in the way of Sino-Russian collaboration.

On the other hand the professor underscored that some important historical events involving China and Russia remain largely neglected by Western political analysts.

Citing Chinese research, Goldstein wrote: "In a chapter of WWII that is rarely discussed in the West, this article explains that Moscow did impressively provide China with almost 1,000 aircraft (and accompanying volunteer pilots) in the four years after the Nanjing Massacre in December 1937."

And that is not all. In addition to Goldstein's narrative it should be noted that Soviet Russia also contributed a lot to the emergence of the Chinese Communist Party and the establishment of the People's Republic of China on October 1, 1949. The USSR provided the Chinese Communists and their supporters with military, technological and humanitarian assistance paving the way for the Party's victory over the Kuomintang (armed and supported by the US) during the Chinese Civil War.

Quoting Chinese analysts, the professor stressed that they regard most Western analyses on Sino-Russian relations as "surficial in nature and also rather pessimistic." Moreover, Chinese authors observe that "the West is always aiming to 'use China to pin down Russia and to employ Russia to pin down China …'," Goldstein added.

"It is not at all clear, as is often suggested, that antagonism is the 'natural state' of affairs in China-Russia relations.The dual combination of the 'rebalance,' in tandem with the West’s still evolving strategic response to the Ukraine Crisis, may yet prove sufficient to solidify a geopolitically significant Eurasian counterpoise," Goldstein concluded.

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## Hamartia Antidote

original sputnik link (since the OP never does it)
West Underestimates Sino-Russian Alliance, Neglects Historical Lessons

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## TaiShang

*McCain Ranting and Raving Over US-Russian Flights Safety Deal in Syria*

25.10.2015

*The recent Russo-American agreement which aims to "de-conflict" the airspace over Syria has evidently hit a raw nerve in US Senator John McCain.*

and Moscow concluded an agreement aiming at "de-conflicting" Syria's airspace in order to avoid dangerous incidents and accidents between the US and Russian Air Forces.

"This 'de-confliction' agreement with Russia means that the United States will now be watching and moving out of the way while Russian aircraft, together with Syrian, Iranian, and Hezbollah ground forces, attack and kill brave young Syrians, many of whom our country has supported and encouraged to fight back against a brutal dictator [Bashar al-Assad]," McCain said in an official statement.

"This is not only self-defeating and harmful to our national interests; it is immoral," he proceeded, "This decision will reverberate ominously across the Middle East at a time when our friends increasingly do not trust us and our enemies do not feel deterred by us."

While Senator McCain continues his ranting and raving, US journalist Daniel Larison points to the fact that the agreement signed by Russia and the US actually lessens the risks to US pilots flying over Syria.

"McCain is bound to be annoyed by the agreement because it represents another step away from the crazy 'no-fly zone' option that he and other Syria hawks support. It is revealing that McCain objects so strenuously to an agreement that lessens the risks to US pilots flying over Syria," Larison wrote in his latest piece for The American Conservative.

"I doubt many Americans would find that to be either immoral or harmful," the journalist stressed.

Larison admitted that indeed Washington's behavior in Syria has been immoral but it is not related to the agreement.

By supporting and encouraging its proxies in Syria the US government "has created an absurd situation": it "has contributed to a conflict in which it has nothing at stake while setting those proxies up for failure."

Larison quoted US columnist Adam Elkus, who nailed it by saying that "there is something very unjust and disturbing in the way in which the United States can encourage men to risk their lives under the false hope that Uncle Sam will be with them the whole way."

Indeed, there is something really immoral in the US' proxy warfare, where people are being used like pawns in the Washington political establishment's grand chess game.

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## ChineseTiger1986

China is still a communist country, while Russia is an ex-communist country.

However, just like China, Putin's Russia currently still insists for a stronger state-owned economy as the 1990s privatization and total free market doctrine has created the biggest geopolitical disaster in the 20th century and a total tragedy for the Russian people.

Therefore, the capitalist USA doesn't like those state-capitalist countries such as China and Russia, and in result its belligerent policy has eventually pushed these two giants together.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Hamartia Antidote said:


> original sputnik link (since the OP never does it)
> West Underestimates Sino-Russian Alliance, Neglects Historical Lessons



Much more valuable than anything that comes out of the mouth of America.

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## TaiShang

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China is still a communist country, while Russia is an ex-communist country.
> 
> However, just like China, Putin's Russia currently still insists for a stronger state-owned economy as the 1990s privatization and total free market doctrine has created the biggest geopolitical disaster in the 20th century and a total tragedy for the Russian people.
> 
> Therefore, the capitalist USA doesn't like those state-capitalist countries such as China and Russia, and in result its belligerent policy has eventually pushed these two giants together.



President Putin has done some strategic work by re-nationalizing key sectors and putting US-capitalist oligarchs behind the bars.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Much more valuable than anything that comes out of the mouth of America.



So why does he fear posting original links.
The reason people should post original links is so you can check for "creative editing" of the article....which I have spotted him doing in the past.

Example:
Local attraction: young Chinese no longer staying overseas after graduating from foreign universitie


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## ChineseTiger1986

TaiShang said:


> President Putin has done some strategic work by re-nationalizing key sectors and putting US-capitalist oligarchs behind the bars.



That's why Putin is named as the savior by his people.

Without him, Russia will just become another Ukraine.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Much more valuable than anything that comes out of the mouth of America.



Who believes in regime friendly fascist mouthpieces? 

No wonder Russia Today is a champion in social media reference.

Unmasking the religio-fascist regime:

*Pentagon Used Missionaries as Spies to Penetrate North Korea*

21:03 26.10.2015

*A highly classified Pentagon intelligence operation ran a network of spies in North Korea from 2004 to 2012 under the cover of a US-based Korean Christian missionary group, US media reports revealed on Monday.*

WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — Hiramine was the Colorado-based founder of a multimillion-dollar humanitarian movement and non-governmental organization called the Humanitarian International Services Group (HISG).

“[Evangelical Christian leader Kay Hiramine] was a Pentagon spy whose NGO [non-governmental organization] was funded through a highly classified Defense Department program,” according to a report published in The Intercept.

However, the group really operated under a secret Defense Department program that began in December 2004 and lasted through most of President Barack Obama’s first term, the report said.

“[The program] was the brainchild of a senior Defense Department intelligence official of the Bush administration, Lt. Gen. William ‘Jerry’ Boykin… an evangelical Christian [who]… settled on the ruse of the NGO as he was seeking new… ways to penetrate North Korea,” the report explained.

In 2003, Boykin received widespread criticism for publicly making militant hostile statements about Islam, the report noted.

“North Korea was the most difficult intelligence target for the United State. But Hiramine’s NGO, by offering humanitarian aid to the country’s desperate population, was able to go where others could not,” The Intercept said.

Hiramine did not respond to requests for comment and neither did any of its senior colleagues, according to the report.

The Intercept said its expose was the result of a month-long investigation during which it interviewed more than a dozen current and former military and intelligence officials, humanitarian aid workers, missionaries, US officials and former HISG staffers.

The use of HISG for espionage was “beyond the pale” of what the US government should be allowed to do, Sam Worthington, president of Inter Action, an association of nearly 200 American NGOs, told The Intercept.

“It is unacceptable that the Pentagon or any other US agency use nonprofits for intelligence gathering. It is a violation of the basic trust between the US government and its civic sector,” he said.

A former US military official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Intercept that the Defense Department provided at least $15 million to HISG over the course of the program through these revenue streams.

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> Whether they be missionaries, news reporters, doctors, English teachers...they can all be spies. Chinese government have not improved in this area by the fact that they have not banned foreign NGO yet. Even the "low" IQ Hindu government already passed laws to make foreign NGO's operating in India a pain in the ***.



I am not sure the new NGO law has passed or not. 

It was being deliberated when I last heard. @AndrewJin , @cirr , @cnleio ? Any info?

I hope the law will be passed anytime soon. 

In my opinion, on this issue, China should adopt measures copied from Mr. Putin's playbook.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> In my opinion, on this issue, China should adopt measures copied from Mr. Putin's playbook.



Absolutely yes.

Putin understands national security. We should learn from him when it comes to national security matters, and he should learn from us when it comes to economic matters. This way we can both become stronger.

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## TaiShang

*Trade, Trains and E-commerce Link China with Russia*

Nearly 10,000 business people from around the world attended the 2nd annual China-Russia Expo in Harbin

Despite challenges, China continues to improve bilateral relations, via better diplomacy, trade and economic cooperation deals. Earlier this month, Harbin, capital of Helongjiang province, hosted the 2nd annual China-Russia Expo.

Nearly 10,000 business people from around the world were in attendance. Chinese and Russian business representatives gathered to discuss potential collaboration in the fields of electro-mechanical production, railways, forestry reserves, technical standards, mining, finance and tourism, as reported by ECNS (English-language China News Service).

*All aboard Wuhan-Moscow cargo train*

The expo highlighted stronger trade ties, which would mean the necessity for significant logistics upgrades. *Accordingly last Saturday, a cargo freight train service between central China's Hubei province and Russia was launched. The 41-cars train departed from Wuhan to embark on a 9,779 km., 12-days-long journey to Moscow.*

The train was loaded with goods mainly from Wuhan's industrial zone with items including machinery and electronics devices, while on its return trip, the train is expected to carry back Russian timber.

Wu Guang-ming, general manager of the Wuhan Asia-Europe Logistics Co., Ltd., pointed out that Chinese railways have boosted long-haul freight service to Europe through northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, starting in April 2014.

Mongolia, located between China and Russia, can expect to experience more trade traffic flowing through the country.

*China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor*

Mongolia stands to gain substantial benefits from rising trade and economic cooperation between Beijing and Moscow. *The three nations are planning to construct an economic corridor to enhance cross-border transportation, communications and financial networks in the region.*

Mongolia could witness a surge in tourism as well. The 1st China-Mongolia Expo was held last week in Hohhot, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region. Government officials have made agreements to initiate a China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor and to promote cross-border tourism.

10 projects, valued at over 1.4bn yuan ($US220 million) were signed, which is expected to jumpstart cross-border tourism route development, tourism personnel training along with hotels and resorts construction.

“Cross-border tourism is an important platform of the China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor,” Wei Guonan, head of the Inner Mongolia Tourism Administration, told Xinhua news.

*E-commerce brings mutual benefits*

China and Mongolia have helped Russia overcome its current difficult economic conditions. Additionally, China's e-commerce giants - particularly Alibaba - are providing online platforms for Russian traders to take advantage of the ruble’s devaluation.

According to China Economic Net, organic Russian food is growing in popularity with Chinese consumers. Wang Jiang-peng, general manager of Eshanghui, a private Russian food e-commerce firm, has already begun to cash in.

*“Our WeChat platform was launched in mid-September and we now boast more than 800 traders distributing Russian goods,” Wang said. “Our daily sales volume hit more than 100,000 yuan ($US 15,762) within 10 days.”*

The recent introduction in Shanghai of the China International Payments System (CIPS) would make it easier for cross-border funds to get bankwired into bank accounts in China, which is creating an added bonus for Russian e-commerce retailers and consumers.

*Looking Far East and beyond*

Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin has restructured the national economy to overcome recent market disruptions. He's focusing on the Far East to boost trade, while Russia's eastern region remains sparsely populated but rich in natural resources and in closer proximity with a prosperous China.

The Russian port city Vladivostok could be transformed into a vital link for rising China-Russia trade and business deals, which can set the tone for a shared happiness.

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## Max Khan

*China and Mongolia have helped Russia overcome its current difficult economic conditions.*
Really?! The author of this article must be joking. Check russian economical data, situation is worsening.


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## cnleio

TaiShang said:


> I am not sure the new NGO law has passed or not.
> 
> It was being deliberated when I last heard. @AndrewJin , @cirr , @cnleio ? Any info?
> 
> I hope the law will be passed anytime soon.
> 
> In my opinion, on this issue, China should adopt measures copied from Mr. Putin's playbook.


As far as i read news, the new China NGO law 《境外非政府组织管理法》still being deliberated, not deliver to Chinas National Peoples Congress yet.
中国首次为境外非政府组织专门立法
美英德总领事忧虑中国境外NGO管理法 徐显明：大可不必
目前全国人大常委会正在制定《境外非政府组织管理法》
*希望境外NGO自觉遵守中国法律，《境外非政府组织管理法》将提供便利和服务*

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## TaiShang

cnleio said:


> As far as i read news, the new China NGO law 《境外非政府组织管理法》still being deliberated, not deliver to Chinas National Peoples Congress yet.
> 中国首次为境外非政府组织专门立法
> 美英德总领事忧虑中国境外NGO管理法 徐显明：大可不必
> 目前全国人大常委会正在制定《境外非政府组织管理法》
> *希望境外NGO自觉遵守中国法律，《境外非政府组织管理法》将提供便利和服务*



Hopefully it will be approved and become a law of the nation soon.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> Hopefully it will be approved and become a law of the nation soon.


By that time, a lot of damage has already been done.

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## Zsari

cnleio said:


> As far as i read news, the new China NGO law 《境外非政府组织管理法》still being deliberated, not deliver to Chinas National Peoples Congress yet.
> 中国首次为境外非政府组织专门立法
> 美英德总领事忧虑中国境外NGO管理法 徐显明：大可不必
> 目前全国人大常委会正在制定《境外非政府组织管理法》
> *希望境外NGO自觉遵守中国法律，《境外非政府组织管理法》将提供便利和服务*


 
Not just foreign NGO, there are a lot of domestic NGO that receives funding from aboard, and they need to be regulated as well.

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## TaiShang

Zsari said:


> Not just foreign NGO, there are a lot of domestic NGO that receives funding from aboard, and they need to be regulated as well.



Yes, when foreign NGOs are regulated, they simply outsource their dirty deals to domestic ones. Hopefully the new updated law will cover all required areas.

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## Max Khan

No doubts, Russia has a great tourism potential maybe even the biggest on the globe but it is not a game changer.


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## Pangu

Didn't see this coming! The negotiation will be formidable in time & in intenisty, however, I think this move maybe a bait to force to Americans to rethink the sanctions, or the Saudis to cut production & raise price, I'm sure neither US or OPEC will not be pleased if China becomes a stakeholder in Rosneft. When an oil buyer becomes a stakeholder in an oil rich region it's never good news, lol.

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## ahojunk

The American won't rethink the sanctions against Russia, as it would be a massive back-down. It is not going to happen.

The Saudi will not cut production. The last time they did it, they lost market share which they found it difficult to get back. Also, Saudi need the money as they have a big budget deficit this year.

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## oproh

Big development if such deal will push through, best of luck to both China and Russia.

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## Manidabest

It seems Russia cant venture into any project or area alone itself... it needs the backing of Chinese in every case but i guess it is a good way of moving forward...


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## Hussain Farooqui

America being the largest economy of the world has surplus budgets for any development venture. Russia can't compete with the US because of much smaller economy. However, combined efforts of China and Russia can enable them to compete with the US.


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## bsruzm

*The U.S. aims to secure its advantage in conventional battle for years to come*








The U.S. Air Force is developing a new bomber that promises to secure the U.S. advantage in modern warfare.

The next-generation long-range strike bomber, recently awarded to Northrop Grumman Corp. NOC, -0.25% for development, will not be designed to rely on as yet undeveloped technologies, as is so often the case with new aircraft and weaponry. Instead, the aircraft will combine and fully exploit existing advanced stealth technology, integrated software, ordnance and countermeasures.

In effect, the military is consolidating the best of its technology in one package. At the same time, the U.S. Air Force has decided to aggregate all of its bombers under a single, unified command, clearing the way to making bombers a more central part of its operations. Thus the new long-range strike bomber is poised to become a central pillar of the U.S. strategy to project its power throughout the globe.


*Maintaining an edge in conventional warfare*

The B-2, the latest bomber model currently in use by the U.S. Air Force, was developed nearly 20 years ago. Since that time, newer aircraft have incorporated the significant technological advancements that have been made since the B-2’s inception. Some of this technology has made its way into the United States’ B-52, B-1B and B-2 bomber fleets, but the new bomber model will bring all of these technologies together in one comprehensive design, making fuller use of each to better meet modern strategic and tactical needs. At the same time, the new bomber is designed to be especially easy to upgrade as more advanced technology emerges.

The next-generation bomber comes not a moment too soon. Although the United States’ current bombers will last for some time, they are rapidly losing their competitive edge against the aircraft developed by rapidly strengthening military powers such as China and Russia. And while the bulk of the current U.S. bomber force will have to be replaced by 2037, the U.S. Air Force expects Chinese technological advances to overtake the most modern B-2 bomber much sooner, perhaps as early as 2020. The introduction of the new long-range strike bomber — and in particular, its more advanced stealth technology — will therefore be critical to maintaining the U.S. advantage in conventional combat operations.

*The network-centric approach*

Apart from stealth technology, the new bomber also features modern sensor packages that provide a clearer picture of the battlefield. Sensors of this type have already been installed in several other U.S. military aircraft, and a range of tests by the U.S. Air Force have shown they can help accurately and independently identify and engage targets. During Operation Resultant Fury in 2004, perhaps one of the most significant of these tests, B-52 and B-1 bombers were able to sink multiple moving maritime targets. These demonstrations suggest that in an actual combat situation, aircraft could detect, engage and destroy enemy vessels with precision-guided munitions. And the advanced sensor packages that make this possible are an important part of the design for the new U.S. long-range strike bomber. They give the United States a technological edge that could become even more important in future conflicts. If, for instance, conflict arises with China in the Pacific someday, technology that allows the U.S. military to effectively strike maritime targets will become a powerful tool for the United States.

Operation Resultant Fury also publicly tested the U.S. ability to conduct “network-centric warfare,” an important concept in modern warfare dictating that countries should attempt to translate their information advantage into a competitive edge on the battlefield. To do so often requires broad task forces comprising several different moving parts that work in concert with each other, connected by an advanced and reliable network. The new bomber’s sensor packages could help make that happen. In the 2004 test, bombers coordinated with intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance planes, command and control aircraft, refueling tankers and fighter jets. Though it was the bombers that ultimately delivered the decisive blow that completed the mission, the real feat of the exercise was the fact that the military was able to successfully integrate information collected from sensors on such a broad array of platforms. Pulling all this information together allowed surveillance and command platforms to identify and track numerous mobile maritime targets and lead the striking aircraft directly to them.







The advanced sensor packages on the new long-range strike bomber, then, will likely enable effective coordination with other vehicles during joint operations. The new bomber’s network will be integrated with already existing platforms, including a wide variety of unmanned aerial vehicles, which will make cooperation even smoother. Meanwhile, the U.S. Air Force’s broader objective is to develop its network-centric warfare capabilities in its other aircraft, including the F-35 fighter jet, effectively creating a wider web of sensors for the new bomber to integrate into. The easier it is for all these platforms to interact, the more effective each one becomes in the long run.

*An asymmetric advantage*

The latest bomber model could also create significant gains for the United States in asymmetric warfare. Bombers can spend a great deal of time flying over potential targets while carrying substantial amounts of ordnance. This offers a distinct advantage in conflicts against insurgencies and actors such as the Islamic State, which are often weaker than states in terms of traditional military power. For example, in the final months of 2014 and at the start of 2015, U.S. B-1B bombers played an important role in the battle to retake the Syrian city of Kobani from the Islamic State. With the help of refueling tankers, the bombers spent eight hours over the city expending their munitions in individual, precision-guided strikes against Islamic State fighters as they emerged. The long-range strike bomber will seek to improve upon these capabilities, both with its advanced sensor packages and with its potential to develop further into an unmanned platform. The aircraft would essentially be able to go anywhere in the world and remain in the air for as long as its ample ordnance lasts.

With its various advantages in asymmetric and maritime warfare, the new long-range bomber will play a central role in the United States’ projection of power abroad. Indeed, this has already been partially reflected in the recent restructuring of the U.S. Air Force. Since April, the United States has drawn all of its bomber aircraft under a single umbrella: the Global Strike Command. Prior to the reorganization, the Global Strike Command controlled nuclear-armed bomber aircraft and nuclear-armed intercontinental ballistic missiles. The remaining bombers reported to the Air Combat Command.

Now, the Global Strike Command will be able to move beyond its nuclear role by assuming control over all long-range striking capability. The move to place all strategic bombers under their own separate command will likely raise the profile of the U.S. bomber force, paving the way for it to emerge as a distinct pillar of U.S. military might.'' *MarketWatch - Stratfor

(I am not sure if it's already posted)*


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## TaiShang

*ASEAN diplomats welcome China's One Belt, One Road initiative*
*China's One Belt and One Road initiative is in focus as the region gets set to host the ASEAN summit. Despite territorial disputes in the South China Sea, regional diplomats say they welcome China’s move.*

By Jeremy Koh, Channel NewsAsia
*POSTED:* 16 Nov 2015 14:29


SHENZHEN, China: China has stepped up efforts to sell its ambitious One Belt and One Road initiative, which aims to create multiple economic corridors spanning more than 60 countries across the world.

Recently, the country invited China-based foreign diplomats to tour Fujian, Guangdong and Guangxi Provinces, together forming part of the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road that falls under the One Belt and One Road initiative.

“We are very interested in China’s efforts to share its development model because, as you know, China’s economic miracle is something that has impressed everybody," said Ivan Frank Olea, Minister and consul from the Philippines embassy. "With this One Belt, One Road and Maritime Silk Road, they want to share their development model, as well as share prosperity around the region.”

For many years, China’s calls for regional connectivity has been echoed in Southeast Asia. Diplomats from the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) said that China’s 21st Century Maritime Silk Road initiative can help to spur economic development in the region, especially since the bloc is launching an ASEAN Economic Community at the end of 2015.

*The initiative aims to transform ASEAN into a single market and production base in order to boost the region's competitiveness and connectivity.*

“This augurs very well with our masterplan on connectivity," said Magdalene Teo, Brunei Ambassador to China. "In fact I understand that Chinese senior officials and ASEAN senior officials are actively discussing a number of projects, a number of which Chinese has proposed in terms of enhancing connectivity between ASEAN and China.

Even though they have welcomed the initiative, several ASEAN diplomats have said they are still waiting for more details from China.

*“Now we're still talking about the idea of maritime co-operation, maritime sector, how do we elevate the maritime co-operation. But until now, we don’t have any blueprint of the maritime co-operation itself, especially in terms of the Silk Road,” Third Secretary of the Indonesian embassy in Beijing Sri Remaytin said.*

However, the proposed 21st Century Maritime Silk Road passes through regions where China has territorial disputes with neighbouring countries. Ties between the Philippines and China, for instance, have chilled in recent years - a result of overlapping claims in the South China Sea. Still, the Philippines says the two nations can still co-operate on the plan.

*“Economic development should not be affected by geopolitical situation because economic development means the betterment of people in all regions concerned. So we hope to co-operate with our Chinese friends. We have co-existed with them peacefully for 1,000 years and we hope to do the same in the coming years,” Mr Ivan said.*

But at least in private, some ASEAN diplomats have expressed their concerns the One Belt and One Road initiative could be part of Beijing’s push to assert itself as the region’s leader. So, they will be watching closely as more details are revealed.

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## Pangu

ahojunk said:


> The American won't rethink the sanctions against Russia, as it would be a massive back-down. It is not going to happen.
> 
> The Saudi will not cut production. The last time they did it, they lost market share which they found it difficult to get back. Also, Saudi need the money as they have a big budget deficit this year.



True also. Russians are master chess players, if they get us as a stakeholder, we will have endeavor to alleviate the sanctions imposed on Rosneft. That would bring us into the direct conflict with American & Saudi agenda...

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## bsruzm

TaiShang said:


> Russian Economic Development Minister has said Moscow is ready to sell 19.5 percent of its shares in Rosneft in 2016 - including to China




Today Russia needs but I believe, Russia is already alarmed and will be worse in long term about Chinese achievements.


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## ahojunk

Money talks, bullsh*t walks.

Of course, ASEAN will welcome China's OBOR initiative, knowing that China has a big fat wallet.

When you have lots of money, friends sprout from everywhere.

These so-called "friends" are willing to overlook their grievances.

We may not like it, but I am afraid this is the reality.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> Money talks, bullsh*t walks.
> 
> Of course, ASEAN will welcome China's OBOR initiative, knowing that China has a big fat wallet.
> 
> When you have lots of money, friends sprout from everywhere.
> 
> These so-called friends are willing to overlook other things too.
> 
> We may not like it, but I am afraid this is the reality.



Besides, China and asean are each other's largest trade partners. No side will be willing to sacrifice the existing interests for some small grievance, let alone for others. 

In this age of extreme economic fragility, every yuan counts.

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## cnleio

Well ... the news i read just fund Russia 90billion USD to bomb ISIS. Right now their Tu-22, Tu-95 and Tu-160 bombing in Syria. Lucky China and Russia we r friends, war fund is not a problem.

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## TaiShang

cnleio said:


> Well ... the news i read just fund Russia 90billion USD to bomb ISIS.



Russia is especially bombing terrorists supported by Turkey and Qatar west of Euphrates. East of it is already controlled by the Kurds, a fact that drives Turks crazy. Kurds are working with both Russia and US. 

So, that is money well spent. It is extremely important to stress that the real threat is the terrorists painted by Turkey as moderates. Russia and China made this clear in G20. 

One leg of western encroachment is in play in Syria if the other two legs are in Asia Pacific and Eastern Europe.

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## cnleio

TaiShang said:


> Russia is especially bombing terrorists supported by Turkey and Qatar west of Euphrates. East of it is already controlled by the Kurds, a fact that drives Turks crazy. Kurds are working with both Russia and US.
> 
> So, that is money well spent. It is extremely important to stress that the real threat is the terrorists painted by Turkey as moderates. Russia and China made this clear in G20.
> 
> One leg of western encroachment is in play in Syria if the other two legs are in Asia Pacific and Eastern Europe.


U know China just behind Russia, it means both nations have the same interest in the region ... we don't care Russian whether bomb ISIS.

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## TaiShang

cnleio said:


> U know China just behind Russia, it means both nations have the same interest in the region ... we don't care Russian whether bomb ISIS.



Turkish supported terrorists have lots of Uighur elements, Ahrar al Sham being the leading terrorist group. In this respect, China is right to provide not only political but also financial support to our most important strategic partner.

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## cnleio

TaiShang said:


> Turkish supported terrorists have lots of Uighur elements, Ahrar al Sham being the leading terrorist group. In this respect, China is right to provide not only political but also financial support to our most important strategic partner.


Seriously for 25-year oil imported from Russia, of course with these money from China Russian can do what they want, at last win-win for two partners. Oil price is cheaper but political investment is necessary for China government.

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## Daniel808

TaiShang said:


> Russia is especially bombing terrorists supported by Turkey and Qatar west of Euphrates. East of it is already controlled by the Kurds, a fact that drives Turks crazy. Kurds are working with both Russia and US.
> 
> So, that is money well spent. It is extremely important to stress that the real threat is the terrorists painted by Turkey as moderates. Russia and China made this clear in G20.
> 
> One leg of western encroachment is in play in Syria if the other two legs are in Asia Pacific and Eastern Europe.



I think China must send more "Humanitarian" Aid for Kurdish People.
I must Admit, Kurdish people is a Good Fighter. That's why I respect them  @bsruzm 

They fight ISIS and those Turks together, and They Win !

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## Shotgunner51

cnleio said:


> Well ... the news i read just fund Russia 90billion USD to bomb ISIS. Right now their Tu-22, Tu-95 and Tu-160 bombing in Syria. Lucky China and Russia we r friends, war fund is not a problem.



US$ 90 billion? Wow that's huge!

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## hexagonsnow

Well,air strike for the ISIS will destroy the military force quick and powerful,but the problem can't be solve easily,the real problem for Mideast will get more worse<Islam>.Islam can't be vanished by violence but enforce all Muslim together and gather more hatred from them.So the war will never end.

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## cnleio

Shotgunner51 said:


> US$ 90 billion? Wow that's huge!


lol ... need correct the data, news said 96 billion RMB (about 10billion USD), my mistake ... but this 's just 1st sum of oil money from China.
俄罗斯收到中国巨额石油预付款 美媒：雪中送炭
罗斯石油公司最近公布的财务报表显示，这家最大的俄罗斯石油企业第三季度收到了9965亿卢布（约972.6亿人民币）的石油预付款。市场分析人士认为，这是中国所支付的购买俄罗斯石油的预付款。根据2013年双方所签订的政府间协议和石油交易合同，俄罗斯将在25年内向中国增加供应3.6亿吨原油，每年大约不到1500万吨，合同总金额高达2700亿美元。普京总统当时曾透露，中国要支付的预付款金额高达700亿美元（约4459亿人民币）。

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## yusheng



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## cirr

I say let's buy 8 dozens of SU-35s to speed up the replacement of stone-age J-7 and J-8 fleets。

The purchase will also serve as a token of political and economic support for Russia。

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## Economic superpower



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## LowPost

Looking forward to future military exercises between China and Russia, either bilateral, as part of SCO or any other multinational drill.

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## TaiShang

Arryn said:


> Looking forward to future military exercises between China and Russia, either bilateral, as part of SCO or any other multinational drill.



Looking forward especially to a joint naval exercise in the SCS and institutionalizing it just like the annual naval drills in the Sea of Japan.

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## TaiShang

Nice all-around cooperation in the most strategic partnership of the time.

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## Beast

Still no official confirmation from Chinese side or rosoboronexport. I believe, it might not go thru yet.

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## oproh

Let's wait for confirmation, but if true it's great then that China chose Russia. Russia is definitely the most trustworthy military partner for China.

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## oproh

Nice one, China and Russia is the coolest military alliance ever.

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## TaiShang

oproh said:


> Let's wait for confirmation, but if true it's great then that China chose Russia. Russia is definitely the most trustworthy military partner for China.



Yes, it is too early to comment before a definite official confirmation. Until then, it is all speculation.

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## Shotgunner51

oproh said:


> Let's wait for confirmation, but if true it's great then that China chose Russia. Russia is definitely the most trustworthy military partner for China.



The Su-35 will probably be the last 4G program, same as the J-11 series, before the next gen comes into play. Considering the volume of only 24 sold/purchased, I suppose if the deal happens it serves several purposes. Most importantly it will forge closer industrial partnership between KnAAPO and SAC on their respective 4G programs. It also helps to boost Russian financial position on military campaigns against terror threats common to both nations. PLAAF might use these platforms in training & simulation e.g. "Blue Team".

Anyway you were right, yes let's wait for confirmation!

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## TaiShang

Shotgunner51 said:


> The Su-35 will probably be the last 4G program, same as the J-11 series, before the next gen comes into play. Considering the volume of only 24 sold/purchased, I suppose if the deal happens it serves several purposes. Most importantly it will forge closer industrial partnership between KnAAPO and SAC on their respective 4G programs. It also helps to boost Russian financial position on military campaigns against terror threats common to both nations. PLAAF might use these platforms in training & simulation e.g. "Blue Team".
> 
> Anyway you were right, yes let's wait for confirmation!



UPDATE 2-Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 bln for Su-35 fighter jets -source| Reuters

TASS: Military & Defense - Russia inks contract with China on Su-35 deliveries

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## Economic superpower

Why only 24?

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## TaiShang

Economic superpower said:


> Why only 24?



As the Reuters article says, the details will surface in time as there has been no official confirmation or comment by China. 

I have not found any source from China on the matter except those that cite the Russian source. 

The number might change and there might be exception/optional clauses, as well. 

I am also hoping the number will at least be double that of the stated here.

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## vtnsx

beijingwalker said:


> *Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets*
> 
> 6 hours ago
> 
> MOSCOW (Reuters) - China is to buy a batch of 24 Sukhoi-35 fighter jets from Russia in a deal worth more than $2 billion (1.3 billion pounds), an industry source told Reuters on Thursday, in a move that may help the Kremlin's strained finances.
> 
> A spokeswoman for Russian state holding Rostec confirmed a deal between the two countries had been signed involving Su-35 fighter jets, but declined to provide details.
> 
> The deal makes China the first foreign buyer of the Su-35, one of Russia's most advanced military aircraft, and is one of the largest contracts for military jets to have ever been signed between the two countries.
> 
> Russia and China have been in talks for several years over the Su-35s, and in 2012 the two sides signed a preliminary agreement for Beijing to buy some of the jets, the Kommersant newspaper reported.
> 
> Arms sales are a rare bright spot in an otherwise gloomy economic picture for Russia, whose economy is suffering from weak oil prices and Western sanctions over the Ukraine conflict.
> 
> Moscow has sought to deepen trade and financial ties with Beijing following the chill in relations with the West over Ukraine, but some analysts are sceptical as to whether the drive has yielded much in the way of early results.
> 
> It is not clear when China will pay Russia the more than $2 billion fee for the Su-35 jets.
> 
> 
> 
> (Reporting by Gleb Stolyarov; Writing by Alexander Winning; Editing by Andrew Osborn)
> 
> Russia, China sign contract worth over $2 billion for Su-35 fighter jets - Yahoo Finance



How much each?


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## Chanakyaa

apart from Engine Tech, i dont see how Su 35 Fits in the Cramped space between J11+J10 & J20 / J31


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## TaiShang

vtnsx said:


> How much each?



It says worth over 2 billion USD. 



XiNiX said:


> apart from Engine Tech, i dont see how Su 35 Fits in the Cramped space between J11+J10 & J20 / J31



It would of strategic importance from the perspective of deepening China-Russia security partnership. Not just technical.

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## vtnsx

TaiShang said:


> It says worth over 2 billion USD.
> 
> 
> 
> It would of strategic importance from the perspective of deepening China-Russia security partnership. Not just technical.



$2 billion is not each.
Anyways, it says on wiki that each SU-35 is estimated at 65 mill usd. So for 2 billions you can get 30 of these. The logistics probably took a chunk to get down to 25 jets.


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## Chanakyaa

TaiShang said:


> It would of strategic importance from the perspective of deepening China-Russia security partnership. Not just technical.



In That Case, getting a Borei Class Sub or PAK FA Partnership was Much .. Much...Better and Meaningful. Isnt It ?


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## TaiShang

XiNiX said:


> In That Case, getting a Borei Class Sub or PAK FA Partnership was Much .. Much...Better and Meaningful. Isnt It ?



The deal is still pretty much a speculation. So, anything said on this would be an extension of that. I am not sure of the strategic implications as well as possibility of any other deal. There is a whole strategic community in each great nation to make such calculations. 

I am more on the real side of international politics. Something happens then it is meaningful for me. Otherwise, history holds countless possibilities.



vtnsx said:


> $2 billion is not each.
> Anyways, it says on wiki that each SU-35 is estimated at 65 mill usd. So for 2 billions you can get 30 of these. The logistics probably took a chunk to get down to 25 jets.



Of course not each. It is the total alleged price. And still the figures are likely subject to change.

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## beijingwalker

> For the PLAAF, purchasing the Su-35 is a win-win. They will not only get a highly capable new aircraft, they will also acquire get an engine that has the power to make their sophisticated new J-20 a world-class fighter.

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## vtnsx

TaiShang said:


> The deal is still pretty much a speculation. So, anything said on this would be an extension of that. I am not sure of the strategic implications as well as possibility of any other deal. There is a whole strategic community in each great nation to make such calculations.
> 
> I am more on the real side of international politics. Something happens then it is meaningful for me. Otherwise, history holds countless possibilities.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not each. It is the total alleged price. And still the figures are likely subject to change.



Lol then why even bother to reply $2 billion?  butthurt.


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## beijingwalker

Russian SUKHOI SU 35 performing COBRA MANOEUVRE Awesome pilot skills

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## Economic superpower

Su-35 serves no purpose for China as far as I'm concerned. Only buying 24 will not make a huge difference to the PLAAF capabilities. If China thought Su-35 will make a big difference, then it should buy alot more than 24.

J-20 will soon be entering service in 2017-2018.

China has the J-11D which is very similar to Su-35 except engine featuring thrust. 

If China really did buy the Su-35, the whole deal is baffling on why now and why only 24.



beijingwalker said:


>



So why not just buy the engines themselves?

If China will put Su-35 jet engine for J-20, then what will power the Su-35?

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## Echo_419

TaiShang said:


> It says worth over 2 billion USD.
> 
> 
> 
> It would of strategic importance from the perspective of deepening China-Russia security partnership. Not just technical.



Good to see China is helping Russia financially


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## TaiShang

vtnsx said:


> Lol then why even bother to reply $2 billion?  butthurt.



You are a very knowledgeable person. Hence I do not get your humor. 



Echo_419 said:


> Good to see China is helping Russia financially



It is more of a strategic cooperation than help.

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## beijingwalker

Helping us to improve our own homemade jet engines referring to Su-35 engine.

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## Beast

If I am not wrong, these 24 Su-35 will be transfer to Pakistan Airforce and is not for China usage. China is acting as middle-man.

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## Jlaw

Beast said:


> If I am not wrong, these 24 Su-35 will be transfer to Pakistan Airforce and is not for China usage. China is acting as middle-man.


why would russia need to go through China to sell to Pak?

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## Sugarcane

Not possible, Russia will lose trillions dollars worth deals with India if she sell anything to her enemy.


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## Beast

LoveIcon said:


> Not possible, Russia will lose trillions dollars worth deals with India if she sell anything to her enemy.


Are you talking nonsense. How about RD-93 engine Mi-17 and Mi35 gunship sold to Pakistan?

Plus, India has a weak military industries. They cannot manufacture a lot of weapons at low price. Which means they still need to buy Russian weapons in order to modernize decently. Western stuff is too expensive to equip in large numbers. If India dont buy from Russia, who can they buy from in large number? China?

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## HRK

Beast said:


> Are you talking nonsense. How about RD-93 engine Mi-17 and Mi35 gunship sold to Pakistan?
> 
> Plus, India has a weak military industries. They cannot manufacture a lot of weapons at low price. Which means they still need to buy Russian weapons in order to modernize decently. Western stuff is too expensive to equip in large numbers. If India dont buy from Russia, who can they buy from in large number? China?



man you are not getting .... that was a sarcastic post .... he is mocking at Indian cyber force argument

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## Beast

Jlaw said:


> why would russia need to go through China to sell to Pak?



Despite warming ties between PAF and Russia. Selling a major weapon system like SU-35 might still kick a stir between Russia and India. Russian want to play that kind of attitude that this matter does not concern them but is China's fault. Then what can India blame on, blame Chinese? Lol..

Didn't you feel fishy that Russian deputy minister talk about selling Su-35 to PAF recently and then suddenly China declared purchase of 24 Su-35 from Russian? 24 is the exact amount PAF wanted to purchase during the discussion.

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## badguy2000

Well,the deal seems to have taken 5years at least,while chinese,aerospace tech has been developing so fast…

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## terranMarine

together we are strong

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## badguy2000

Russia radar can not help china too moch,i am afraid,while AESA has been widely applied to J10,J11,J15,J16.

The sole ruusia can help china' aera tech now seems to be engine.


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## apiSubmarine

Between China and Russia, Which is the most dangerous country for the US. What are the good and bad things for people in the world and the US. one is Tiger, one is Lion and last one is pola Bear. These are the most aggressive in the jungle or the world.


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## Indika

apiSubmarine said:


> Between China and Russia, Which is the most dangerous country for the US. What are the good and bad things for people in the world and the US. one is Tiger, one is Lion and last one is pola Bear. These are the most aggressive in the jungle or the world.


Economically china is bigger threat and militarily its russia.

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## beijingwalker

What Do Westerners Think Of China? |


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## Beast

US is the biggest threat to mankind. From fabricated lies of Iraq WMD, to foolish intervention of Libya which create a massive illegal immigrant and terrorist problem. Then to irresponsible supply of weapons and funds to ISIS to destabilise Syria. Now they washed their hands on Europe immigrant problem when comes to Europe. When that is still not enough, they pick trouble and pick side in SCS and spur certain countries to go against another serve their own agenda.

USA is the satan of the world. The world shall rise up against this tyrants and monster.

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## TaiShang

apiSubmarine said:


> Between China and Russia, Which is the most dangerous country for the US. What are the good and bad things for people in the world and the US. one is Tiger, one is Lion and last one is pola Bear. These are the most aggressive in the jungle or the world.



Both challenge the US from various angles: military, economics, culture, education etc.

US is not a singular power, as well. It is the leader of the Atlantic Pact and an amalgamation of the Western hegemony.

China is not a singular power, as well. Although not as institutionalized as the Atlantic Pact, China and Russia represent a new alternative historical bloc to the US-led Western hegemony.

So, I would say, in terms of real challenge, a China-Russia bloc is the most fundamental challenge the US faces in terms of the sustainability of its bloody grip on the world. That's the reason the US wages two silent wars on two fronts: One is with Russia and the other with China.

The rest is simply details or pieces on the board.



Beast said:


> Then to irresponsible supply of weapons and funds to ISIS to destabilise Syria. Now they washed their hands on Europe problem when comes to Europe refugee problem.



That has not been entirely negative development, I think. The way the US panicked and how they watered down the number of refugees they promised to take from Syria&Iraq on the aftermath of Paris terror attacks must have taught Europe a practical lesson in the long run. 

Do not get involved in grand strategies with the US, betting on the lives of other people, because, when the knife touches the nerve a bit, the US will simply shroud in its isolationism and let the Europe deal with the repercussions of ill-advised policies.

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## apiSubmarine

The real issue is , will the chinese ethnic control the whole world.


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## xunzi

If we are aggressive, you won't have a jungle to live. LOL

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## The Sandman

Militarily Russia but China is more dangerous to US because of it's economy and military

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## Economic superpower

TaiShang said:


> Both challenge the US from various angles: military, economics, culture, education etc.
> 
> US is not a singular power, as well. It is the leader of the Atlantic Pact and an amalgamation of the Western hegemony.
> 
> China is not a singular power, as well. Although not as institutionalized as the Atlantic Pact, China and Russia represent a new alternative historical bloc to the US-led Western hegemony.
> 
> So, I would say, in terms of real challenge, a China-Russia bloc is the most fundamental challenge the US faces in terms of the sustainability of its bloody grip on the world. That's the reason the US wages two silent wars on two fronts: One is with Russia and the other with China.
> 
> The rest is simply details or pieces on the board.
> 
> 
> 
> That has not been entirely negative development, I think. The way the US panicked and how they watered down the number of refugees they promised to take from Syria&Iraq on the aftermath of Paris terror attacks must have taught Europe a practical lesson in the long run.
> 
> Do not get involved in grand strategies with the US, betting on the lives of other people, because, when the knife touches the nerve a bit, the US will simply shroud in its isolationism and let the Europe deal with the repercussions of ill-advised policies.



Excellent points.

Individually, Russia and China are not powerful enough to take on the US, but Russia and China combined would have all the necessary things to fully challenge the US such as:

Large land area.
Large population.
Large workforce.
Abundant natural resources (energy, metals, agriculture).
Large nuclear arsenal.
Large standing army.
Advanced conventional military weaponary (fighters jets, strategic bombers, strategic air transport, attack helicopters, transport helicopters, destroyers, frigates, conventional submarines, nuclear attack submarines, aircraft carrier, LPD, etc).
Advanced space program (satellites, launch facilities, manned, space station).
Satellite navigation system (GLONASS, Beidou).
Large and advanced missile arsenal (ICBM, IRBM, MRBM, SRBM, cruise missiles launched from land, air, sea and subsea).
Advanced nuclear ballistic submarines.
Advanced strategic bombers.
Advanced air and missile defences.
Advanced intelligence and counter intelligence.
Large economy.
Large trading nation.
Large investor.
Large savings pool.
Large consumer market.
Large industrial/manufacturing base.
Large service sector.
Large foreign exchange reserves.
Large gold reserves.
Large creditor nation.
Large stock market.
Large bond market.
Large government budget revenue.
Large government budget.
Highly educated population.
Large number of scientists.
Large number of engineers.
Large automobile producer.
Large shipbuilder.
Advanced technical knowledge on everything.
Advanced technologies in various industries (transportation, energy, medical, electronics, IT, etc)
Fastest supercomputer.
Large R&D budget.
Large military spending.
Large weapons exporter.
Ability to build large scale infrastructure rapidly.

Russia has things China wants, China has things Russia wants. If Russia and China combined, that will be a superpower combination capable of taking on anyone.

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## Economic superpower

Individually, Russia and China are not a superpower. Russia has things China wants, China has things Russia wants. Russia and China combined will be a superpower combination as they would have all the necessary things to qualify as a superpower such as:

Large land area.
Large population.
Large workforce.
Abundant natural resources:
- energy
- metals
- agriculture
Large standing army.
Large nuclear arsenal.
Advanced conventional military weaponary:
- fighters jets
- strategic bombers
- strategic air transport
- attack helicopters
- transport helicopters
- destroyers
- frigates
- conventional submarines
- nuclear attack submarines
- aircraft carrier
- LPD
Advanced space program:
- launch facilities
- satellites
- manned
- space station
Satellite navigation system:
- GLONASS
- Beidou
Large and advanced missile arsenal
- ICBM
- IRBM
- MRBM
- SRBM
- land-launched cruise missiles
- air-launched cruise missiles
- ship-launched cruise missiles
- submarine-launched cruise missiles
Advanced nuclear ballistic submarines.
Advanced strategic bombers.
Advanced air and missile defences.
Advanced intelligence and counter intelligence.
Large economy.
Large trading nation.
Large investor.
Large savings pool.
Large consumer market.
Large industrial/manufacturing base.
Large service sector.
Large foreign exchange reserves.
Large gold reserves.
Large creditor nation.
Large stock market.
Large bond market.
Large government budget revenue.
Large government budget.
Large automobile producer.
Large shipbuilder.
Advanced technical knowledge on everything.
Advanced technologies in various industries:
- transportation
- energy
- medical
- electronics
- IT
Fastest supercomputer.
Highly educated population.
Large number of scientists.
Large number of engineers.
Large R&D budget.
Large number of patents owned.
Large military spending.
Large weapons exporter.
Ability to build large scale infrastructure rapidly.
Dominant in olympic sports.

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## Grevion

Economic superpower said:


> Russia has things China wants, China has things Russia wants.



OT- China's economic power + Russia's military power(Tech.) = Superpower.
But things don't run that way.

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## untitled

Only if their interests are aligned


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## Shotgunner51

@Economic superpower
Hi bro, Russia itself is already a full-spectrum superpower.

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## Economic superpower

Shotgunner51 said:


> @Economic superpower
> Russia itself is already a full-spectrum superpower.



Russia lacks economic power, population size, consumer market size, etc.
China lacks military power, natural resources, etc.

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## xunzi

China+Russia together would be invincible. In other words, impossible to defeat. However it is not necessary Russia will get us to the next level. Time is the only thing we need right now that would get us to the next level, similar to Soviet Union getting massive tech from the Nazi.

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## Economic superpower

xunzi said:


> China+Russia together would be invincible. In other words, impossible to defeat. However it is not necessary Russia will get us to the next level. Time is the only thing we need right now that would get us to the next level, similar to Soviet Union getting massive tech from the Nazi.



China can catch up to Russia militarily but China will never have the abundant natural resources Russia has nor the land area of Russia.

China is vulnerable being so dependent on natural resource imports. 

Russia = great power.
China = great power.
Russia + China = superpower.

For anyone that followed Dragonball Z, the analogy is USA is pure evil Majin Buu, China is Goku, Russia is Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta by themselves are too weak to fight Majin Buu, but Goku and Vegeta combined can take on Majin Buu.

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## cnleio

Have the same interests in the region.

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## Shotgunner51

Economic superpower said:


> Russia lacks economic power, population size, consumer market size, etc.
> China lacks military power, natural resources, etc.



If you look at *economic activities* (e.g. GDP), despite being interrupted by trade barriers (sanctions), Russia is still quite vibrant and maintains a middle-income nation. Manufacturing industry plays a major role (check sector composition) as well as exports, especially in hi-tech like weaponry, adding lucrative value to the economy. Most of all, Russia has a rich *"balance sheet"* that beats most of the world, say reserves in Forex, land, forest, minerals & energy.

The *population* isn't too small, still larger than the two self-restrained hidden-superpowers, aka Japan & Germany. More importantly it's about human capital (measured in HDI, poverty, literacy, nutrition, etc), for Russia it's a high-performance asset, not liability.

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## Economic superpower

Shotgunner51 said:


> If you look at *economic activities* (e.g. GDP), despite being interrupted by trade barriers (sanctions), Russia is still quite vibrant and maintains a middle-income nation. Manufacturing industry plays a major role (check sector composition) as well as exports, especially in hi-tech like weaponry, adding lucrative value to the economy. Most of all, Russia has a rich *"balance sheet"* that beats most of the world, say reserves in Forex, land, forest, minerals & energy.
> 
> The *population* isn't too small, still larger than the two self-restrained hidden-superpowers, aka Japan & Germany. More importantly it's about human capital (measured in HDI, poverty, literacy, nutrition, etc), for Russia it's a high-performance asset, not liability.



Russia cannot hang with the USA in a superpower battle. Everything Russia has, USA has in greater scale.

Russia + China is a superpower because China can add scale to Russian power.

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## TaiShang

Economic superpower said:


> Russia cannot hang with the USA in a superpower battle. Everything Russia has, USA has in greater scale.
> 
> Russia + China is a superpower because China can add scale to Russian power.



I guess Russia is doing pretty well in a full-spectrum proxy war with the US. I would say, in the final analysis, if we define superpower in terms of destructive capability, Russia is on par with the US.

That's what really matters. 

China is a fast rising great power; all it needs is time. A 20+ trillion USD economy and a sizable military industrial complex will be enough to put China on par with the US within a decade. 

If being superpower is defined as the ability to make international rules, then, both China and Russia occupy the highest seats available to nations. 

I agree, on the other hand that, China-Russia Eurasian duo is definitely an equal force against the Atlantic Pact.

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## Shotgunner51

Economic superpower said:


> Russia cannot hang with the USA in a superpower battle. Everything Russia has, USA has in greater scale.
> 
> Russia + China is a superpower because China can add scale to Russian power.




The point is that even without China or anyone, just by itself Russia is already a status-quo superpower that can confront US. Debt-driven consumption GDP in many services (e.g. movies, casinos, spa, beauty salons, ...), even in some light manufacturing (e.g. furniture, fashion, jewelry ...) with shallow supply chain, play insignificant role in war time confrontation. Russia has good human capital, powerful base of heavy industries, vast reserves of strategic materials, battle-hardened military, geopolitical influence, these make Russia the only other superpower in the world.

But yes bro, China is a value-adding strategic partner for Russia in her global confrontation with US, no doubt on that.



TaiShang said:


> if we define superpower in terms of destructive capability, Russia is on par with the US.




Agree to that bro.

Other than Russia, the only two nations that can be superpower on par with US/Russia are *Japan*, if they decides to re-militarize & re-build "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere" ("大東亜共栄圏 だいとうあきょうえいけん"), and *Germany*, if they are successful with changing EU into "Forth Reich" ("Viertes Reich").

China's mission is to revive cultural & economic prosperity of the Middle Kingdom as well as that of partnering nations, with a modest scale of peace enforcement branch just suffice to defend national interests, home & abroad.

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## haviZsultan

Economic superpower said:


> China can catch up to Russia militarily but China will never have the abundant natural resources Russia has nor the land area of Russia.
> 
> China is vulnerable being so dependent on natural resource imports.
> 
> Russia = great power.
> China = great power.
> Russia + China = superpower.
> 
> For anyone that followed Dragonball Z, the analogy is USA is pure evil Majin Buu, China is Goku, Russia is Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta by themselves are too weak to fight Majin Buu, but Goku and Vegeta combined can take on Majin Buu.


I wish you luck. An Asian power removing the world bully-win win situation for Pakistan.

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## A2Z

Economic superpower said:


> Individually, Russia and China are not a superpower. Russia has things China wants, China has things Russia wants. Russia and China combined will be a superpower combination as they would have all the necessary things to qualify as a superpower such as:
> 
> Large land area.
> Large population.
> Large workforce.
> Abundant natural resources:
> - energy
> - metals
> - agriculture
> Large standing army.
> Large nuclear arsenal.
> Advanced conventional military weaponary:
> - fighters jets
> - strategic bombers
> - strategic air transport
> - attack helicopters
> - transport helicopters
> - destroyers
> - frigates
> - conventional submarines
> - nuclear attack submarines
> - aircraft carrier
> - LPD
> Advanced space program:
> - launch facilities
> - satellites
> - manned
> - space station
> Satellite navigation system:
> - GLONASS
> - Beidou
> Large and advanced missile arsenal
> - ICBM
> - IRBM
> - MRBM
> - SRBM
> - land-launched cruise missiles
> - air-launched cruise missiles
> - ship-launched cruise missiles
> - submarine-launched cruise missiles
> Advanced nuclear ballistic submarines.
> Advanced strategic bombers.
> Advanced air and missile defences.
> Advanced intelligence and counter intelligence.
> Large economy.
> Large trading nation.
> Large investor.
> Large savings pool.
> Large consumer market.
> Large industrial/manufacturing base.
> Large service sector.
> Large foreign exchange reserves.
> Large gold reserves.
> Large creditor nation.
> Large stock market.
> Large bond market.
> Large government budget revenue.
> Large government budget.
> Large automobile producer.
> Large shipbuilder.
> Advanced technical knowledge on everything.
> Advanced technologies in various industries:
> - transportation
> - energy
> - medical
> - electronics
> - IT
> Fastest supercomputer.
> Highly educated population.
> Large number of scientists.
> Large number of engineers.
> Large R&D budget.
> Large number of patents owned.
> Large military spending.
> Large weapons exporter.
> Ability to build large scale infrastructure rapidly.
> Dominant in olympic sports.


No doubt that China and Russia can pose a threat to USA's dominance in the world but complete dominance would never be possible.

Russia has is very safe geographically as it is almost impossible to invade or attack Russia from the north and history has proved that Russian winter can be more dangerous then its armed forces. Russians have the natural resources needed, they have the technology needed, their population is almost enough but they at the moment lack the economy needed. 

China on the other hand has the economy needed, they have a very large work force, they are getting the technology gradually but they lack on the natural resources. China has the largest military and they have a powerful friend Russia. But natural resources is a point that can limit China as they need oil more than any country on earth and middle east is the biggest source but USA holds middle eastern oil. Everyone knows where Iraqi and Syrian oil is going, Saudis wont give a single drop to someone USA disapproves, Kuwaitis know who saved their @$$ when Saddam invaded and oil from Iran can be stopped by mighty US Navy. So until PLAN is powerful enough to take on US Navy you can't count on Iranian oil.

Moreover USA's main strength other than its economy and military is its geographical location. Every country that is close to USA is either an ally or so weak that USA can crush them when ever they want. This is something that China nor Russia has. China has very powerful neighbors with whom China has disputes and they are very close to USA. Japan and India are the spare head in this case. Though they both might not be able to tackle China single handedly but if both of them have a common enemy and they can get help from nations like Taiwan, Philippines and Vietnam then things would become very difficult for China. Russia on the other hand has its own problems with EU.

So in the end to conclude, China and Russia are great powers but at the moment they aren't in USA's league. USA can bring a war on Russian or Chinese soil when ever it wants and that's where problems for both would start. However if China and Russia in future can take a conflict to American soil then i would say whatever the result of that war would be one thing is for sure USA would collapse like a house of cards. From there whether USA wins or losses one thing is for sure it will lose its superpower status.

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## Economic superpower

Shotgunner51 said:


> The point is that even without China or anyone, just by itself Russia is already a status-quo superpower that can confront US. Debt-driven consumption GDP in many services (e.g. movies, casinos, spa, beauty salons, ...), even in some light manufacturing (e.g. furniture, fashion, jewelry ...) with shallow supply chain, play insignificant role in war time confrontation. Russia has good human capital, powerful base of heavy industries, vast reserves of strategic materials, battle-hardened military, geopolitical influence, these make Russia the only other superpower in the world.
> 
> But yes bro, China is a value-adding strategic partner for Russia in her global confrontation with US, no doubt on that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree to that bro.
> 
> Other than Russia, the only two nations that can be superpower on par with US/Russia are *Japan*, if they decides to re-militarize & re-build "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere" ("大东亚共荣圈"), and *Germany*, if they are successful with changing EU into "Forth Reich" ("Viertes Reich").
> 
> China's mission is to revive cultural & economic prosperity of the Middle Kingdom as well as partnering nations, with a modest peace enforcement branch just suffice to defend national interests, home & abroad.



Russia doesn't have a proper economy. It has to rely on energy prices for growth, that's not an economy. US drove down oil prices in the 1980's with Saudi help to bankrupt the Soviet Union. Russia needs Chinese economic power.

Japan and Germany are irrelevant because they don't have scale. To be a superpower, you need scale. 

The only country that can challenge the US is China because of China's scale.

If Chinese leaders have the view of having a modest military just enough to defend national interests, then this will be the century of India.

India also have scale like China and if they get it together, China won't have much room to manoeuvre and India will eventually surpass China.

China must strive for absolute maximum power. The notion the world will be peaceful is very naive. Humans by nature are thirsty for power and want to dominate. You want to be the one dominating instead of the one being dominated. 

China is surrounded by hostile powers and anything but strength will spell disaster for China.

China is up against US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philppines, Australia.

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## oproh

Judging by the fact that obama cries regularly about Russia and China, I can say that america is hostile to Russia and China. America is addicted to power and they want to be a solo leader to the world. Kudos to countries like China and Russia for standing up to the american bully.

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## Shotgunner51

Economic superpower said:


> Russia doesn't have a proper economy. It has to rely on energy prices for growth, that's not an economy. US drove down oil prices in the 1980's with Saudi help to bankrupt the Soviet Union. Russia needs Chinese economic power.
> 
> Japan and Germany are irrelevant because they don't have scale. To be a superpower, you need scale.
> 
> The only country that can challenge the US is China because of China's scale.
> 
> If Chinese leaders have the view of having a modest military just enough to defend national interests, then this will be the century of India.
> 
> India also have scale like China and if they get it together, China won't have much room to manoeuvre and India will eventually surpass China.
> 
> China must strive for absolute maximum power. The notion the world will be peaceful is very naive. Humans by nature are thirsty for power and want to dominate. You want to be the one dominating instead of the one being dominated.
> 
> China is surrounded by hostile powers and anything but strength will spell disaster for China.
> 
> China is up against US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philppines, Australia.




On Russia:

She does have a sizable base of hi-tech or heavy industries, weaponry in particular, that makes a huge difference from movie or casino GDP when it comes to war time.
In war time, her natural reserves like oil become hard currencies, and she has loads of it.
The scale of Russian human capital is also big enough, note excessive scale of population made up of uneducated or malnourished is a liability not an positive asset.
Russia got all these elements, and a geopolitical ambition, that makes her the only other superpower in the world.
P.S.: Yes scale is important, that of human capital, industrialization, tech and strategic reserves, but not scale of population. Check small population states like UK after industrial revolution, Japan after Meiji era and WWII Nazi Germany. Contemporary Japan & Germany are the only two "hidden" superpowers, let's not mistake their low profile for incapability. Other nations are too small or plainly irrelevant.​
On China:

She is not challenging US in order to become one of the superpowers, or the superpower, there is no such motive in the first place. Moreover there is no such need, check US demographics, socio-economics, politico-economics, on where are they heading, you know what I mean brother.
China shall continue to industrialize targeting to reach par with East Asia or Germany, build strategic reserves, build global assets and promote RMB in international financial systems, these are the objectives.

You were right, in presence of those blood-thirsty war-profiteers, the world can hardly be a peaceful place, that's why China has to maintain a peace enforcement branch to secure all frontiers of national interests at home or abroad, real or cyber, earth or space. Though China will only maintain a modest scale (e.g. ~1.2% of peace time GDP) of such a branch, since war is not an objective for her, it will always be last option to achieve or re-establish peace.
China will be a value-adding strategic partner for Russia in her superpower confrontation with US.

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## General Observer

beijingwalker said:


> What Do Westerners Think Of China? |


Bro, those people were all interviewed in what looks like Australia or New Zealand. You gotta look for the ignorant American interviewees, they say some things that gives you a new perspective for the stupidity in this world ...


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## Jlaw

Economic superpower said:


> Russia lacks economic power, population size, consumer market size, etc.
> China lacks military power, natural resources, etc.


dude, look around the world. Having a high GDP per capita does not make one a superpower. If that is the case, Luxemburgh is a superpower

I know it's hard to believe, but a robber with a gun is more powerful than a rich man without one.

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## Zsari

While it is necessarily to rely on Russia to provide a counter balance to western dominance, China will ultimately have to depend on itself to become a superpower. When and if Chinese economy and following that the Chinese national strength exceed that of the US, do expect Russia to turn against China as that's how the balance of power works.

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## FairAndUnbiased

If Chinese lack ambition to become a superpower, we will (deservedly) only become super poor.

This is a sink or swim world. If you do not swim, you sink. Everyone is a shark. Eat or be eaten. I don't know why all the KMT sympathizers and right wings always look back and say "oh things are soo different now". Sharks don't look back. They don't have necks. You know who have necks? Animals who get eaten by sharks. Be the shark.

Why is the J-15 called the Flying Shark and not the Flying Unicorn of Happiness? Exactly.

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## Aepsilons

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Why is the J-15 called the Flying Shark and not the Flying Unicorn of Happiness? Exactly.



lol, hahaha "flying unicorn of happiness". Dude, i just died laughing.

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## TaiShang

FairAndUnbiased said:


> If Chinese lack ambition to become a superpower, we will (deservedly) only become super poor.
> 
> This is a sink or swim world. If you do not swim, you sink. Everyone is a shark. Eat or be eaten. I don't know why all the KMT sympathizers and right wings always look back and say "oh things are soo different now". Sharks don't look back. They don't have necks. You know who have necks? Animals who get eaten by sharks. Be the shark.
> 
> Why is the J-15 called the Flying Shark and not the Flying Unicorn of Happiness? Exactly.





Tranquility through absolute destructive strength.

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## Aepsilons

TaiShang said:


> Tranquility through absolute destructive strength.




1984 much?


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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> 1984 much?



More like 2020s.

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## Aepsilons

TaiShang said:


> More like 2020s.



LOL, did you get my reference tho, buddy?


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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> LOL, did you get my reference tho, buddy?



Yes. But, why refer to dead texts while there is future you can refer to?

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## Aepsilons

TaiShang said:


> Yes. But, why refer to dead texts while there is future you can refer to?



hahahaha! alright, alright. :]


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## LowPost

*Russia-China Relations and the Downing of Russia’s Jet Fighter by Turkey*
*US-China Conducted A "Friendly" Military Exercise Less than A Week Before the Downing of Russia's Jet Fighter by Turkey *

_he downing of a Russian jet fighter over Syria’s airspace was undertaken by Turkey in consultation with Washington and Brussels. Turkey did not take this decision without getting the greenlight from the Pentagon. 
Is this an act of revenge against Russia for bombing the US-sponsored Islamic State in Syria? _

The unspoken truth is that Russia is undermining US-NATO’s ground operations inside Syria. The latter are made up of various Al Qaeda affiliated formations which de facto constitute the foot-soldiers of the Western alliance. These ISIS and Al Nusrah rebel forces are in turn led by intelligence operatives and Western special forces, many of whom are deployed by private mercenary companies on contract to US-NATO.

_The downing of Russia’s plane by Turkey is a clear act of provocation. What is its broader intent?_

_How will backlash at the diplomatic level? Is military escalation contemplated by Washington?_

_A covert war of stealth is currently unfolding which could evolve towards direct military confrontation between US-NATO and Russia._

*The Role of China*

From a strategic and military standpoint of view, Russia’s main ally is China, which until recently has been the object of military threats in the South China sea under Obama’s pivot to Asia.

What has been Beijing’s response to the downing of Russia’s aircraft by Turkey? What future role would China play in a scenario of military confrontation and escalation directed against the Russian Federation?

*US-China Military Relations*

In the course of the last few months, both the US and Britain have been playing a game of friendly diplomacy and economic cooperation with China’s president Xi Jinping.

Is the West attempting to Co-opt China? What bearing do these developments have on China and its strategic alliance with Russia?

According to US analysts, relations between the U.S. military and the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) are said to have “improved” in recent years “amid growing tensions between the United States and China” in the South China Sea.

The two countries have held frequent joint military exercises (theoretically limited to humanitarian assistance/disaster relief). In June 2015, a China-US army dialogue mechanism was signed with a view to “boosting army cooperation”

Central Military Commission Vice-Chairman Fan Changlong, who has just completed a visit to the US, urged Washington to reduce its military activities both in the air and in the waters of the South China Sea when meeting US government and military leaders.

Fan and US army Chief of Staff Raymond Odierno witnessed the signing of the dialogue mechanism at the National Defense University in Washington on June 15 2015.

This is the first cooperation document to be signed by the two armies in recent years.

Guan Youfei, director of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Ministry of National Defense, *said afterward that the two armies could hold joint exercises on land next year.*

Guan said the two sides discussed *mutual trust mechanisms* for reporting major military operations and the code of conduct on military encounters in the air and at sea, both signed last year. (China Daily, June 15, 2015, emphasis added)

In August 2015, China and Russia launched major war games entitled ‘Joint Sea 2015 II,’ described it as an _“unprecedented show of military cooperation,”_ (See RT, August 30, 2015). The drills involved the deployment of “a total of 22 ships, 20 aircraft, 40 armored vehicles, and 500 marines from the two countries, including the Varyag missile cruiser, flagship of the Russian Pacific fleet; and the Shenyang destroyer, the Chinese flagship, participated in the active phase of the exercises”(RT, August 30, 2015)

*US-China Joint Navy Exercise*

The conduct of major China-Russia war games in late August did not foreclose China’s decision to the holding of military drills some three months later (November 16-21) with the United States. This time the US Navy Pacific Fleet and the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) conducted a “friendly” joint US-China military exercise off the coast of Shanghai in the East China Sea.

According to the U.S. Navy, the Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS _Stethem _(DDG 63) arrived in Shanghai on the 16th of November with a mission to promote “maritime cooperation and reinforce a positive naval relationship with the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) East Sea Fleet.” (The Diplomat, November 18, 2015)

While U.S. sailors stood at attention when entering the port, around 70 Chinese sailors held up a bilingual sign that said “Welcome US Navy Destroyer USS _Stethem_ to Shanghai.”

This was a friendly military exercise coupled with social events. The scale was by no means comparable to that of the August Sino-Russian Joint Sea 2015 II held off the coast of Vladivostok in August. Nonetheless, in the course of this 5 days mission, the commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, Admiral Scott Swift held consultations with his Chinese counterpart commander of the China’s East Sea Fleet, Admiral Su Zhiqian:

After the port visit, the USS _Stethem_ will hold naval drills with the People’s Liberation Army Navy, including a joint rescue operation with Chinese warships near the estuary of the Yangtze River, as well as communications exercises involving the Code for Unplanned Encounters at Sea (CUES).

In a bitter irony, these joint exercises took place following the dispatch of “the USS Lassen, another Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, within 12 nautical miles of China’s man-made islands”. These US maneuvers in the South China Sea were considered by Beijing as an act of provocation instigated by the US Navy.
In turn, the US has mobilized a military alliance of several Southeast Asian countries against the People’s Republic of China (PRC), not to mention the establishment of the US sponsored Republic of Korea Naval base on* Jeju Island*, which lies within proximity of China’s coastline. The naval base constitutes a threat to China (rather than to North Korea).

The November Sino-US military exercise in the East China Sea are part of a propaganda campaign which consists in tacitly instilling a pro-US perspective within the ranks of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA):

“This is our second visit to China in three months,” said Lt. Erika Betancourt, Stethem’s operations officer. “The strides we have made in our partnership and operational cooperation improve both our ability to conduct exercises and our interactions at sea.” US Navy News Service, November 23, 2015)

While the November joint military exercises were largely symbolic, the important question is:

*Are they indicative of an “About Turn” in Sino-US military relations*– i.e. a shift from overt threats under Obama’s “Pivot to Asia” towards “military cooperation” and “dialogue”.

Defense News (November 16, 2015) intimates that a redirection of US military strategy in relation to China is unfolding: “_US, Chinese Navies Train Together Despite Tensions”. _

USS Stethem (image left)

The ship’s commanding officer, Harry Marsh, told reporters the visit was intended to “build mutual trust” between the two navies.

US sailors, he said, would learn about their counterparts’ “maritime experiences, so that when we operate at sea we can do it safely, and we understand what they are doing and what we do”.

The stopover comes shortly after the US sailed a warship near artificial islands being built by Beijing in the South China Sea.

Harris downplayed the friction [between the US and China]:* “Countries may have some disagreements, yet our navies are able to operate safely at sea.*“(Defense News) 

*The Role of Military Alliances*

Alliances are fundamental in the history of war. The First World war was in part the result of a destabilization and shift in military alliances.

Strategic alliances are often characterized by “cross-cutting coalitions” between opposing sides which in some cases lead to destabilizing the broader structure of military alliances.

Unquestionably, Washington’s intent is to establish a “cross-cutting” relationship with the People’s Republic of China with a view to eventually undermining and destabilizing China’s alliance with Russia.

US foreign policy in relation to China could be described as a “threaten-cooperate” strategy. It’s an ambivalent relationship which involves a_ quid pro quo_. “Pivot to Asia” versus “military cooperation”. It consists in “threatening” China with a view to forcing China to “cooperate” with the US.

Will China succumb to this diabolical agenda?

Is Washington attempting to rebuild its strategic relations with China with a view to eventually weakening and isolating Russia?

While the Chinese political leadership is divided, there is nonetheless a strong pro-American lobby in China both within the Shanghai business community, the media as well as among intellectuals in elite universities and the Beijing-based think tanks such as the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS).

Sino-US cooperation in the military sphere inevitably has a bearing on Moscow’s strategic relationship with Beijing.

*The US Navy held friendly military exercises with China’s PLA Navy less than a week prior to a blatant act of military aggression against the Russian Federation, which is China’s closest ally.*

In recent developments, Turkey has acknowledged in a letter addressed to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the 15 members of the UNSC that “it had shot down on an unidentified plane that violated Turkish airspace and defended its right to do so”.

While China and Russia are the core members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), they have also developed important bilateral relations in military affairs. For Moscow, the Sino-Russian military alliance is central to its ability to play a key “stabilizing role” in global politics.

_“_The consolidated position of our countries is having a stabilizing effect on the international situation,” according to Russia’s defense minister Sergei Shogu on an official visit to Beijing in September.

“The Russian defense chief added that* military cooperation remained the main basis of Russia and China’s strategic partnership*” (emphasis added), following the conduct of the biggest ever joint Sino-Russian naval drill in Russia’s Far East. *“By broadening their military cooperation, Russia and China will protect the security of their sovereign territories*, the Russian defense chief said.” (RT, September 2, 2015)

The question is how will China respond to an act of military aggression by a NATO member State directed against the Russian Federation?

We are at a dangerous crossroads: With regard to Turkey, any act of military reprisal by Russia (which at this stage seems unlikely) could potentially lead to military action by NATO against the Russian Federation, invoking the clause of “collective security” (article 5 of the Washington Treaty). Moreover, the aggressive action by Turkey could be followed by subsequent acts of aggression and/or provocation against Russia with a view to triggering (i.e. justifying) a process of military escalation.

*What position will China take when the issue of Turkey’s downing of Russia’s war plane over Syria is brought to the UN Security Council?*

*The position taken by China could be decisive in preventing a process of military escalation*.

Escalation would consist in an enlarged US-NATO-Israel led war against the broader Middle East-Central Asian region, extending from North Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean to China’s Xinjiang-Uighur Western frontier with Afghanistan and Pakistan. (see map below).

At the time of writing, no significant statement has as yet emanated from the Chinese government.

Russia-China Relations and the Downing of Russia’s Jet Fighter by Turkey | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

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## Zsari

Russia is unlikely to escalate the conflict even after the downing of Su-24 as it is operating deep within enemy territory so to speak, and would be unwise to take on too many foes at the same time. That said, Putin can still throw a punch in a tic-for-tac fashion. As far as China is concern, the recent joint military activities with the US would not change the overall Russia-China cooperation as there is not a fundamental shift within the power structure. China would certainly be sympathetic to Russia in the downing of its jet fighter, but don't expect any strong statement from China.

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## Globenim

They have enough trouble with Turkey supplying and coordinating the "moderate" terrorists , as well as trading with the "not so ok" terrorists in Syria.

Russia and other allies already foiled NATO efforts for forced regime change through imported terror and violence and is now on its way to liberate hostage taken territories and return them back to the Syrian government with the Syrian people. Its just a matter of time and funds.
If Russia falls for Turkeys provocation tactics they would give Turkey excuse to intervene in Russian efforts and affairs inside Syria.

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## TaiShang

I guess the US will never forget how China, along with Russia, vetoed a US-backed UN resolution for military intervention in Syria - twice. That was the strongest political expression of where China stood with respect to the Syrian crisis.

China-US naval drill is just a technical detail.

Geopolitically, the interests of Russia and China are very much aligned in Syria, as well as in most other global matters, both factually and ideationally. China also may find it another distraction from the Asia Pivot as the US gets more entangled in the post-Arab Spring Middle East.

US has to run between Kurds, Turks, Qataris, Saudis, Iranians, and Israelis, whose interests are all tangled and who are not sure about where the Obama administration really stands.

Luckily, China does not have so much baggage. Aligning with Russia is a clear statement and does not involve all the intrigues of Middle Eastern politics.

Certainly, China is not entirely isolated from the issue, but, it keeps at a safe distance, as it should be.

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## Beast

US friendly to China recently? They send destroyer within 12nm of our island. China sure send more fund and aid to Russia to make sure they destroy those Turkmen terrorist from Syria completely. China will not cooperate with US in Syria issue until they agree to our 12nm island in spratly island.

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## beijingwalker

*Why Russia needs China to buy its weapons*
Despite intellectual property concerns, Russia recently agreed to sell 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets to China - a deal worth $2 billion. But what is driving Moscow to seek deeper trade ties with Beijing? DW examines.







The deal, announced last week by Russian defense conglomerate Rostec, makes China the first foreign contractor of the multi-role Sukhoi Su-35 (main picture), an upgraded and highly maneuverable fighter jet. While the deal has yet to be confirmed by Beijing, Russian daily newspaper _Kommersant_quoted Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov on November 19 as saying: "The protracted talks on Su-35 deliveries to China have ended. We have signed the contract."

The agreement reportedly includes not only the supply of 24 jets to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) for a total of $2 billion ($83 million per unit) but also the delivery of ground support equipment and reserve aircraft engines. The first batch of the planes, with the NATO reporting name Flanker-E, is expected to be delivered next year.

A win-win situation?

Russian sales of advanced weapons to China, including modern combat aircraft, are not new. Indeed, throughout the post-Soviet period, China has been one of Russia's most important customers for arms exports. The Chinese have been purchasing systems, such as the Su-27 fighter jet, and advanced surface-to-air missiles, from Russia for over a decade.




The Su-35 is one of Russia's most advanced aircraft

"The arms relationship serves both countries, as Russia has depended on foreign sales to maintain parts of its defense industrial base, and China, with a steadily growing military budget, has been in search of advanced weapons that Western nations are unwilling to sell it," David Ochmanek, a senior defense analyst at the RAND Corporation, told DW.

What makes the latest deal particularly noteworthy, however, is that the Su-35 is one of Russia's most advanced military aircraft, and had not been previously sold to any foreign buyers. Until recently, Russia was actually quite reluctant to sell China the very most sophisticated of its weapons systems.

Russian concerns

James D. Brown, an expert on international affairs at Temple University's campus in Tokyo, explains that the reason behind this has been Moscow's concern that China would copy the technology and begin to produce its own rival weaponry which would then compete with Russian arms on world markets. "Many in the Russian defense industry had complained that this is what happened when Russia sold China the Su-27 fighter jet," said Brown.

Siemon Wezeman, a senior researcher with the Arms and Military Expenditure Program at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), has a similar view. He told DW that while China has imported significant numbers of weapons from Russia in recent years, it has also moved towards developing and producing its own advanced weapons, in part by copying Russian and sometimes Ukrainian technology or components such as engines for combat and other aircraft.

The Chinese had been interested in purchasing the Su-35 for several years, with experts pointing to Beijing's particular interest in the aircraft's engine technology, an area in which China still lags behind.






China has moved towards developing its own advanced weapons, in part by copying Russian technology, say experts

In fact, the Chinese have not yet been able to master key military technologies, especially regarding jet engines, as Keith Crane, a senior economist at the US-based RAND corporation, pointed out. "Despite the Chinese government's preference to purchase domestically, the PLAAF has successfully lobbied to purchase Russian aircraft because they have been superior to purely domestic models."

Given the copyright issues, there were strong indications that Russia wasn't initially willing to sell its latest Su-35 technology to China. "The argument was that China was likely to buy a small number of aircraft just to learn about the technology and copy it. Thus, any order placed must have been be profitable enough to offset the possible loss of technology," SIPRI expert Wezeman told DW.

Geopolitical factors

It is nevertheless striking that the Russians ultimately agreed to the deal, despite their intellectual property concerns. So why clinch the deal now? Wezeman points out that China will probably not get technology transfers required for a local high-level maintenance center for the aircraft, thus making it more difficult for the Chinese to copy from the 24 units.

But there are probably bigger interests at stake. It seems that Moscow has decided to set aside its previous reservations and significantly intensify its relations with China - including in the military sector - as a consequence of its currently tense relations with the West. In fact, analysts such as Moritz Rudolf argue that the Ukraine crisis and the Western embargo against Russia have served as catalysts for the completion of arms sales negotiations.

"In the past, Russia would not have sold its most modern military technology to China. One of the key reasons for the policy shift are financial constraints within Russia," Rudolf, who is a research associate at the Germany-based Mercator Institute for China Studies (MERICS), told DW, adding that the S-400 missile defense systems deal, which was officially announced this April, clearly illustrates this.






Missile technology, especially in advanced air-defense missile systems, is another area where Beijing still shows interest in Russian systems or technologies for use in Chinese-developed systems. The S-400 air-defense missile system is, next to the Su-35, the main Russian weapon that has been on the negotiating table for some time.

Closer ties

As a result of the deteriorating relations between Russia and the West, Moscow has been moving closer towards Asia, particularly Beijing. Since 2014, a number of significant economic deals have been signed with China, especially with regard to energy exports.

Political relations have become ever closer. Most symbolically, Chinese President Xi Jinping traveled to Moscow in May 2015 to participate in Russia's Victory Day parade, an event that was shunned by most Western leaders. In return, Russian President Vladimir Putin was present in Beijing in September 2015 to join Chinese celebrations of the 70th anniversary of victory over Japan.

The Russian leader has even begun to describe China as Russia's "natural ally" and proclaimed that relations are now at their "best in all their many centuries of history," analyst Brown told DW.

Regional concerns

China's neighbors will be concerned about the latest Sino-Russian arms deal given that the Su-35 is widely regarded as one of the best aircraft of its type in the world. "As such, it will add considerably to the current capabilities of the Chinese air force, thereby strengthening Beijing's ability to project power in the East and South China Seas," said analyst Brown.

Above all, he added, there must be concern that East Asia could slowly start to be divided into two rival camps, with the United States and allies on one side, and China and Russia on the other. Initial signs of such a division might be found in the recently agreed Trans-Pacific Partnership, which, although including several countries in the region, excludes both China and Russia.

A difficult relationship

However, wide gaps remain between the two countries. For instance, MERICS analyst Rudolf points out that while Putin and Xi have successfully negotiated milestone projects, putting them into practice has become a key challenge in the bilateral relationship. One important example includes the $400 billion "Power of Siberia" gas pipeline project, which is not progressing as expected, said Rudolf. "In addition, key infrastructure projects such as the Altai-pipeline could fail due to financing difficulties.”

And while the countries have stepped up their security cooperation within the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, they still compete over influence in Central Asia. "Beijing's 'One Belt, One Road' initiative and the Russia-initiated Eurasian Economic Union are not compatible in the long term," Rudolf added.

Similar strains can be found in defense ties, where Russia has been bolstering cooperation with China's rival India, already Asia's largest weapons importer. "Whereas China was the most important client for Russia's military aircraft in the past, currently India is as important. Moscow is much more comfortable working with the Indian than with the Chinese industry for a variety of reasons, including concerns about Chinese attempts to steal Russian intellectual property," said China expert Crane.

The last major order?

Given that the Chinese have mastered most military technologies and have thus become less reliant on Russian defense imports, Ben Moores, senior defense analyst at analytics firm IHS, says he sees no real intensification of Sino-Russian military ties in the near future. "The SU-35 will probably be the last major sale from Russia to China," he told DW. "While there is a lot of talk about military co-operation, there is very little action or real substance. China doesn't need Russia as much as Russia needs China."






China still shows interest in advanced air-defense missile systems such as the S-400

The Chinese market is still important to Russia, accounting for a quarter ($2.4 billion) of all Russian sales so far this year. But the problem for Moscow is that Beijing only buys a small amount of a weapons system and then copies it. "The one area they can't do this is engines but they are spending huge amounts to catch up. Bear in mind that China spends about $31 billion on procurement every year, so $2 billion isn't a great deal to China," said Moores.

If anything, he pointed out, Chinese imports as a percentage of all procurement spending have fallen over the longer term. "While Russian exports to China are not expected to fall in the short to medium term, I don't see China making any new large orders over the coming decade. The Su-35 is almost certainly the last one," said Moores.

It remains to be seen what impact a decline in Chinese orders would have on Russia's defense industry. For the time being, the sector has a solid backlog of orders from Russia's defense ministry.

Why Russia needs China to buy its weapons | Asia | DW.COM | 24.11.2015

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## vtnsx

Well, at least Russia is doing something. Honestly, I don't understand what the big fuss about Ukraine that's got Russia into this mess.


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## beijingwalker

China and Russia are natural allies, together they can beat NATO to pieces.


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## TaiShang

*China, Russia plan bullet train joint venture*
November 27, 2015





China's first low-and middle-speed maglev train gets debugged at Lanli Station in Changsha, Hunan province, on Nov 23, 2015. [Photo/China Daily]


China and Russia are setting up a joint venture in Russia for making electromagnetic unit vehicles for the Moscow-Kazan high-speed rail project, railway equipment maker CRRC Corp Ltd said on Thursday.

The vehicles will be made by Changchun Railway Vehicles Co, a CRRC subsidiary based in the capital city of Jilin province, it said.

The high-speed rail linking Moscow and Kazan, the capital of Tatarstan Republic, is located in the high altitude area, while Changchun Railway Vehicles has rich experience and advantages in making electromagnetic unit vehicles for alpine high-speed rail lines, it said.

The Chinese subsidiary's experience in making equipment suitable for extreme cold weather conditions will come in handy for the Moscow-Kazan line, said Zhu Ying, general manager of China Railway Eryuan Engineering Group Co.

The world's first high-speed railway operating in extremely low temperatures is the 921 kilometer line linking Harbin, the capital of China's northernmost province of Heilongjiang, and the port city of Dalian, Liaoning province, which opened in 2012. It works in temperatures as low as minus 50 degrees Celsius.

The maximum design speed of 400 km per hour is the fastest worldwide, and also the fastest for China's overseas high-speed railway contracts, Zhu said.

The Moscow-Kazan line, with a length of about 770 km, will run through seven Russian regions when it is completed by 2018 before the Russia FIFA World Cup.

It will cut travel time between Moscow and Kazan to three and a half hours from 14 hours now.

The line will be extended later and become part of the planned Beijing-Moscow high-speed corridor.

According to CRRC, China and Russia have negotiated on the order size and details of the joint venture.

Particulars regarding the number of electromagnetic units, scale and location of the plant and vehicle parameter performance are to be discussed later.

@AndrewJin , @cirr

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## Bussard Ramjet

TaiShang said:


> *China, Russia plan bullet train joint venture*
> November 27, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's first low-and middle-speed maglev train gets debugged at Lanli Station in Changsha, Hunan province, on Nov 23, 2015. [Photo/China Daily]
> 
> 
> China and Russia are setting up a joint venture in Russia for making electromagnetic unit vehicles for the Moscow-Kazan high-speed rail project, railway equipment maker CRRC Corp Ltd said on Thursday.
> 
> The vehicles will be made by Changchun Railway Vehicles Co, a CRRC subsidiary based in the capital city of Jilin province, it said.
> 
> The high-speed rail linking Moscow and Kazan, the capital of Tatarstan Republic, is located in the high altitude area, while Changchun Railway Vehicles has rich experience and advantages in making electromagnetic unit vehicles for alpine high-speed rail lines, it said.
> 
> The Chinese subsidiary's experience in making equipment suitable for extreme cold weather conditions will come in handy for the Moscow-Kazan line, said Zhu Ying, general manager of China Railway Eryuan Engineering Group Co.
> 
> The world's first high-speed railway operating in extremely low temperatures is the 921 kilometer line linking Harbin, the capital of China's northernmost province of Heilongjiang, and the port city of Dalian, Liaoning province, which opened in 2012. It works in temperatures as low as minus 50 degrees Celsius.
> 
> The maximum design speed of 400 km per hour is the fastest worldwide, and also the fastest for China's overseas high-speed railway contracts, Zhu said.
> 
> The Moscow-Kazan line, with a length of about 770 km, will run through seven Russian regions when it is completed by 2018 before the Russia FIFA World Cup.
> 
> It will cut travel time between Moscow and Kazan to three and a half hours from 14 hours now.
> 
> The line will be extended later and become part of the planned Beijing-Moscow high-speed corridor.
> 
> According to CRRC, China and Russia have negotiated on the order size and details of the joint venture.
> 
> Particulars regarding the number of electromagnetic units, scale and location of the plant and vehicle parameter performance are to be discussed later.
> 
> @AndrewJin , @cirr




Are the Russians opting for Maglev?

Maglev have never turned out to be economic compared to Rolling Stock.


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## cirr

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Are the Russians opting for Maglev?
> 
> Maglev have never turned out to be economic compared to Rolling Stock.



Electric multiple units（EMUs）

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## AndrewJin

The new standard CRH350 or CRH2G are the optimal choice for cold Russia, similar to our NE China and NW China.

*CRH2G
+40 --- -40 degree celsius *

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## beijingwalker

Russia to provide S-400 missile systems to China along with Su-35 jets


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## Echo_419

beijingwalker said:


> Russia to provide S-400 missile systems to China along with Su-35 jets



Looks like all these years the Russians were telling the truth


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## Kyle Sun

What ? I remember RU said S400 is not for sale.


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## Viper0011.

beijingwalker said:


> Russia to provide S-400 missile systems to China along with Su-35 jets



Defense of the Gawader port is about to get strengthened 



Kyle Sun said:


> What ? I remember RU said S400 is not for sale.



Oh, everything is for sale in Russia. How else do you expect Putin to sponsor a small war with NATO (Turkey issues)?? Do you think he'll tap into his "personal retirement" accounts??


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## cnleio

Kyle Sun said:


> What ? I remember RU said S400 is not for sale.


Strategic partners, it means can sell everything to each other ... No Secret.

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## Kyle Sun

Viper0011. said:


> Defense of the Gawader port is about to get strengthened
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, everything is for sale in Russia. How else do you expect Putin to sponsor a small war with NATO (Turkey issues)?? Do you think he'll tap into his "personal retirement" accounts??


I prefer Tu160.,

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## Blue Marlin

Kyle Sun said:


> What ? I remember RU said S400 is not for sale.


they have already exported it to Algeria i guess China is second




Algeria might have begun deploying S 400 SAM systems - Secret Difa3


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## cnleio

Kyle Sun said:


> I prefer Tu160.,


Tu-160 cockpit is very old ... we need to build our own B-2, not too long we can see China stealth bomber.


Tu-160






B-2

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## Kyle Sun

cnleio said:


> Tu-160 cockpit is very old ... we need to build our own B-2, few years later we can see China stealth bomber.
> 
> 
> Tu-160
> View attachment 275341
> 
> 
> 
> B-2
> View attachment 275342


NO , B2 is ugly. 

I like Tu160 , it's classic airplane, my beauty !



Blue Marlin said:


> they have already exported it to Algeria i guess China is second
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Algeria might have begun deploying S 400 SAM systems - Secret Difa3


Damn! 
When did Ru export S400 to Algeria ?


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## cnleio

Kyle Sun said:


> NO , B2 is ugly.
> 
> I like Tu160 , it's classic airplane, my beauty !


 As far as i knew, China need B-2 more than Tu-160 ... a stealth bomber is the future key for our nuclear-attack platform.

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## Blue Marlin

Kyle Sun said:


> NO , B2 is ugly.
> 
> I like Tu160 , it's classic airplane, my beauty !
> 
> 
> Damn!
> When did Ru export S400 to Algeria ?


not to long ago, late spring early summer of this year



cnleio said:


> Tu-160 cockpit is very old ... we need to build our own B-2, not too long we can see China stealth bomber.
> 
> 
> Tu-160
> View attachment 275341
> 
> 
> 
> B-2
> View attachment 275342


what about a tu-160 airframe with a b2 cockpit? now thats a good combination.

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## Kyle Sun

cnleio said:


> As far as i knew, China need B-2 more than Tu-160 ... a stealth bomber is the future key for our nuclear-attack platform.


 We just need one super nuclear bomb which can destroy Earth.


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## Place Of Space

Kyle Sun said:


> We just need one super nuclear bomb which can destroy Earth.



Why we need S-400 missiles?


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## cnleio

Blue Marlin said:


> what about a tu-160 airframe with a b2 cockpit? now thats a good combination.


LOL ... it's B-1B, if China government decide to develop 'China B-2' really no need that.


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## Blue Marlin

cnleio said:


> LOL ... it's B-1B, if China government decide to develop 'China B-2' really no need that.


the tu-160 is the largest combat aircraft in service today and its also one of the fastest too. a b1 is similar, but smaller and slower. but a bomber similar to that of the b2 would be the best option. but not a vital option. china needs a long range bombers and thats it stealth is just a bonus. smaller stealth airframes can move in first and neutralize any threats, such as sam's and adversarial jets then the bombers move in along with non stealth jets e.g. j11/j10 and get to work and do their own thing if you know what i mean.

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## cnleio

Blue Marlin said:


> the tu-160 is the largest combat aircraft in service today and its also one of the fastest too. a b1 is similar, but smaller and slower. but a bomber similar to that of the b2 would be the best option. but not a vital option. china needs a long range bombers and thats it stealth is just a bonus. smaller stealth airframes can move in first and neutralize any threats, such as sam's and adversarial jets then the bombers move in along with non stealth jets e.g. j11/j10 and get to work and do their own thing if you know what i mean.


No faster than what China under development ... B-2 stealth bomber is slower than Tu-160, but it can do some dirty work and silence attack before the real war begin ... it's a undetected Nuclear Deterrent platform for China, we don't need war but China need *Nuclear Deterrent* to others, B-2 is good for the job.
Maiden Flight of The New Chinese HyperSonic Aircraft Flew Faster than US Blackbird.

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## Blue Marlin

cnleio said:


> No faster than what China under development ... B-2 stealth bomber is slower than Tu-160, but it can do some dirty work and silence attack before the real war begin ... it's a nuclear deterrent platform for China, we don't need war but China need *nuclear deterrent* to others, B-2 is good for the job.
> Maiden Flight of The New Chinese HyperSonic Aircraft Flew Faster than US Blackbird.


already read the news on the hgv. nice. deterrent is whats its all about. who says there building weapons to actually use? but we all know that weapons are build for a purpose and thats offense not defense. deterrence just comes with the package.

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## LowPost

HOHHOT, Nov. 27 (Xinhua) -- A chartered train carrying Chinese 160 tonnes of fruit and vegetables to Moscow has passed through China's largest land checkpoint with Russia, in a logistics breakthrough that could greatly boost trade.

After being cleared by customs in Manzhouli of north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, the refrigerated train is expected to arrive in Moscow at the beginning of December following a trip lasting 12 to 14 days.

If the cargo sells well in the Russian capital, the checkpoint will provide swift clearance for repeats of the service, said Rong Zibin, chief inspection and quarantine official of Manzhouli, on Friday.

Local supply of fruit and vegetables in Moscow is inadequate in its long winter, creating an export opportunity for Chinese farmers.

The 160 tonnes of produce was gathered from the Chinese agricultural heartlands of Zhejiang, Fujian and Shandong provinces.

Manzhouli handles 60 percent of China's land freight to Russia. China exports 400,000 tonnes of fruit and vegetables to Russia through there annually.

It has mainly been carried by lorries destined for Russia's Novosibirsk, a freight hub more than 3,000 km from Moscow. Cargo train trips from Manzhouli to Novosibirsk take 90 hours.

Rong said Chinese logistics firms are keen to invest in more refrigerated train services if there is steady demand in Moscow. Enditem

Freight train opens new opportunities for China-Russia exports_News_Icrosschina

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## senheiser

*China, Russia to launch joint news agency to boost Eurasian integration*
Published time: 1 Dec, 2015 09:46Edited time: 1 Dec, 2015 09:53
Get short URL





The Chinese-Russian border on the Manchuria - Siberia railway route © Evgeny Yepanchintsev / Sputnik
China
“_The proposal to create a joint news agency has been made at the Russian-Chinese forum that is currently taking place in Beijing. Also, there is an initiative to set up an expert panel that would host a permanent dialogue for Pacific Region countries_,” the head of the State Duma Committee for Mass Media, Yuri Shuvalov, said in comments to Izvestia daily.

Shuvalov added that both projects were likely to be implemented in 2016, which has been declared as the year of the Russian and Chinese mass media.

READ MORE: Putin’s Beijing visit to boost Russia-China trade

The official noted that, in his view, the Russian and Chinese mass media were in the “_quality growth phase_” and new joint projects would contribute to mutual trust, adequate appraisal of events across the world and precise understanding of positions that the two nations hold on various issues.

“_This concerns the whole range of international politics, economic development of the Eurasian continent and the junction between the Eurasian Economic Union and the ‘Silk Road’ economic region, because these two projects had been developed in two different countries, but together they work in synergy_.” Shuvalov told reporters.

The Eurasian Economic Union was started in 2015 as the Customs Union of Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus. Soon the bloc was joined by Armenia and later by Kyrgyzstan. Many other countries have expressed interest in setting up a free trade zone with the EEU. Vietnam has already signed the agreement, while India may follow suit. Thailand is expected to launch a free trade zone with the EEU in 2016. In July, Syrian Prime Minister Wael Halqi said that Damascus wants to join the Eurasian Union and set up a customs-free zone to boost economic relations with friendly states.

The new Silk Road is China’s project with the goal of establishing an economic corridor with Russia and Mongolia.

READ MORE: Russia, China agree to integrate Eurasian Union, Silk Road, sign deals

In May, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping signed an agreement that will see the two countries cooperate on linking the development of the Eurasian Economic Union with the Silk Road economic project, along with a number of other deals in energy, trade and finance.

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## senheiser

@cirr @TaiShang @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Shotgunner51 @oproh

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## TaiShang

senheiser said:


> In May, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping signed an agreement that will see the two countries cooperate on linking the development of the Eurasian Economic Union with the Silk Road economic project, along with a number of other deals in energy, trade and finance.



Very tactical move. This also falls nicely wit the efforts to integrate European development investment fund with the Silk Road project.

Eurasian Union is a viable alternative to the Atlantic alliance.

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## Pangu

Both Russian & Chinese media needs this consolidation of information dissemination in earnest. Too much misinformation & disinformation from the other side in their endless propaganda campiagn.

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## TaiShang

Pangu said:


> Both Russian & Chinese media needs this consolidation of information dissemination in earnest. Too much misinformation & disinformation from the other side in their endless propaganda campiagn.



Yes, cooperation on the media-information dissemination is a key to put through the agenda and set up the discourse to our favor.

And repetition through multiple channels.

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## Raphael

Great news. While we're at it, we need to kick out the worst Western propaganda organs as well:

- Reuters
- Wall Street Journal
- Anything by Fairfax Media

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## Avisheik

Raphael said:


> Great news. While we're at it, we need to kick out the worst Western propaganda organs as well:
> 
> - Reuters
> - Wall Street Journal
> - Anything by Fairfax Media



Dont kick them out, Learn from them. Anyway Reuters isnt that biased compared to the other two(esp. WSJ)

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> Great news. While we're at it, we need to kick out the worst Western propaganda organs as well:
> 
> - Reuters
> - Wall Street Journal
> - Anything by Fairfax Media



And WOPO. They are religiously anti-China.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

USA isolated.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Good, let's make RMB-Ruble as the dual currency of the new Eurasian economic union.

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## yusheng

第四十五象 戊申 山水蒙卦

谶曰:　　有客西来 至东而止 木火金水 洗此大耻 

颂曰 ：
炎运宏开世界同；　金乌隐匿白洋中；

从此不敢称雄长：　兵气全消运已终 


it is an ancient Chinese prophet saying , in the near future, during a world war, China will defeat a country with an ally.

the defeated country like sun would never rise again since all its weaponary perished.

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## Beidou2020

Someone needs to reform that CCTV English. They need to be like RT instead of being pro-American.

RT, PressTV, Global Times, Sputnik should be the model for CCTV.

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## Raphael

TaiShang said:


> And WOPO. They are religiously anti-China.



I think you mean WaPo?



Avisheik said:


> Dont kick them out, Learn from them. Anyway Reuters isnt that biased compared to the other two(esp. WSJ)



I actually think Reuters is the worst. They're a little more restrained and subtle, but they're consistently the most fanatically Sinophobic of the major Western outlets. The only publications that are worse are niche online publications like the Diplomat (run by Japanese nationalists).

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## Place Of Space

yusheng said:


> View attachment 276361
> 
> 
> 第四十五象 戊申 山水蒙卦
> 
> 谶曰:　　有客西来 至东而止 木火金水 洗此大耻
> 
> 颂曰 ：
> 炎运宏开世界同；　金乌隐匿白洋中；
> 
> 从此不敢称雄长：　兵气全消运已终
> 
> 
> it is an ancient Chinese prophet saying , in the near future, during a world war, China will defeat a country with an ally.
> 
> the defeated country like sun would never rise again since all its weaponary perished.



This prophet is interesting.

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## General Observer

Hello? The epochtimes anyone? The people who write that is clearly on some hardcore crack

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## TaiShang

Raphael said:


> I think you mean WaPo?



Yes, sorry, typo. I meant Washington Post. 



Raphael said:


> The only publications that are worse are niche online publications like the Diplomat (run by Japanese nationalists).



If you have a slightly pro-China thesis, it is impossible to get published there. That's why I argue China needs to create its own venues to put forward its own discourse. This is, to me, a better approach than re-actively trying to counter-argue others.



General Observer said:


> Hello? The epochtimes anyone? The people who write that is clearly on some hardcore crack



Then there is shaghaist. I do not even know why they are allowed to exist. Too much freedom, I guess. 



Beidou2020 said:


> Someone needs to reform that CCTV English. They need to be like RT instead of being pro-American.
> 
> RT, PressTV, Global Times, Sputnik should be the model for CCTV.



Or maybe, CCTV remains as it is but another, more proactive and politically-conscious/critical TV is set up, utilizing the expertise/tech gained through CCTV. 

I also anticipate a global news station established and run by a patriotic national company to promote national interests. China needs a viable patriotic corporate media.

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## Beidou2020

TaiShang said:


> Yes, sorry, typo. I meant Washington Post.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a slightly pro-China thesis, it is impossible to get published there. That's why I argue China needs to create its own venues to put forward its own discourse. This is, to me, a better approach than re-actively trying to counter-argue others.
> 
> 
> 
> Then there is shaghaist. I do not even know why they are allowed to exist. Too much freedom, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe, CCTV remains as it is but another, more proactive and politically-conscious/critical TV is set up, utilizing the expertise/tech gained through CCTV.
> 
> I also anticipate a global news station established and run by a patriotic national company to promote national interests. China needs a viable patriotic corporate media.



CCTV definitely needs reform.

It needs to have guests that are critical of the West and America in particular and less pro-American hacks that agree with the policies of the American regime. It doesn't challenge the status quo of the West like RT.

China needs RT-like TV networks. RT has 90% of its guests who are either neutral or critical of American policies. CCTV have 95% of guests that support American policies.

CCTV tries too hard to be 'liked' by America to get interviews from American elites. CCTV is very anti-Russian, that to me is unacceptable considering Russia is China's number 1 strategic partner.

China also needs more international TV networks. One or two are not enough.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beidou2020 said:


> CCTV definitely needs reform.
> 
> It needs to have guests that are critical of the West and America in particular and less pro-American hacks that agree with the policies of the American regime. It doesn't challenge the status quo of the West like RT.
> 
> China needs RT-like TV networks. RT has 90% of its guests who are either neutral or critical of American policies. CCTV have 95% of guests that support American policies.
> 
> CCTV tries too hard to be 'liked' by America to get interviews from American elites. CCTV is very anti-Russian, that to me is unacceptable considering Russia is China's number 1 strategic partner.
> 
> China also needs more international TV networks. One or two are not enough.



I am not sure about the English channel of CCTV, but the Chinese channel of CCTV is more pro-Russia than pro-USA.

But the Chinese culture is generally more subtle and shy, that's why they even try to hide so much about the military information.

It is not about to reform the political stance of CCTV, but to reform its manner. Let's be a bit bolder, don't be too shy.

The US doesn't understand the subtle language.

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## Beidou2020

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I am not sure about the English channel of CCTV, but the Chinese channel of CCTV is more pro-Russia than pro-USA.
> 
> But the Chinese culture is generally more subtle and shy, that's why they even try to hide so much about the military information.
> 
> It is not about to reform the political stance of CCTV, but to reform its manner. Let's be a bit bolder, don't be too shy.
> 
> The US doesn't understand the subtle language.



I am talking about CCTV English.

Yes, US doesn't understand the subtle language, US only understand the language of power. Russians know exactly how to deal with the Americans since they have experience dealing with the US.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beidou2020 said:


> I am talking about CCTV English.
> 
> Yes, US doesn't understand the subtle language, US only understand the language of power. Russians know exactly how to deal with the Americans since they have experience dealing with the US.



Russia has the experience, while China has the strength.

The two nations are now a perfect combo as a team.

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## cirr

A strategic move that has been long overdue。



Beidou2020 said:


> Someone needs to reform that CCTV English. They need to be like RT instead of being pro-American.
> 
> RT, PressTV, Global Times, Sputnik should be the model for CCTV.



CCTV is run by a bunch of jokers。

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## Beidou2020

*It's now clear to the whole world that Turkey is the number 1 state sponsor of ISIS and also sponsors Uighur terrorists to carry out attacks in China.

Russia has applied sanctions on Turkey, should China use this moment to nail Turkey and apply sanctions too for its support of Uighur terrorists?

Russia applied sanctions after 1 Russian died. China has let Turkey off the hook after its terrorists have killed hundreds of innocent and defenceless Chinese going about their daily lives. How long can China stay silent on the obvious Turkish sponsoring of global terrorism from ISIS to Al Qaeda to Uighurs?*

*Vote in the poll.*

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## Martian2

China Inc. should stay neutral.

Picking a side is bad for business.

Business is business and politics is politics.

Intermixing the two is a terrible idea.

Maximizing productivity and efficiency require the separation of trade from politics.

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## Beidou2020

Martian2 said:


> China Inc. should stay neutral.
> 
> Picking a side is bad for business.



I agree it will damage China Inc., but when is China going to do something to stop Turkey sponsoring Uighur terrorists?

China needs to stop getting pushed around by every Tom, D*ck and Harry.

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## Martian2

Beidou2020 said:


> I agree it will damage China Inc., but when is China going to do something to stop Turkey sponsoring Uighur terrorists?
> 
> China needs to stop getting pushed around by every Tom, D*ck and Harry.


The problem is that every rebel group is out to annoy China.

There are too many Muslim fanatics willing to fight China. China cannot sanction the entire Middle East. Thus, sanctions should only be used as part of waging direct war against a country.

This is a cost-benefit analysis. A few minor terrorist attacks do not justify disrupting trade among countries (which has hundreds of millions of people collectively).

The number of Chinese killed every day in car accidents is about 150 (I think). The total number killed by terrorists is only about 150 per year (I'm guessing here).

Even if you sanction Turkey, the Uighurs would only find another supporter. It won't really change anything.

A better approach is to beef up China's borders with advanced surveillance and border patrols.

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## Kyle Sun

For what ?

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## zebra7

This Poll is interesting Guys and I am waiting for the Result.

@Beast @Chinese-Dragon


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## kankan326

China should punish Turkey and join in the war against ISIS.

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## Sanchez

No more tot export of military equipment to Turkey but we don't need to change trade relationship with Turkey. If China should ever use economic sanctions as a weapon, try Pinoys or Viets first.

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## senheiser

Raphael said:


> Great news. While we're at it, we need to kick out the worst Western propaganda organs as well:
> 
> - Reuters
> - Wall Street Journal
> - Anything by Fairfax Media


and the economics


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## 大汉奸柳传志

How exactly? We hardly buy anything from Turkey but sell a lot of stuff to them.Sanction is only going to hurt China more than it does to Turkey.

If you really want Turkey suffer, just buy weapons using the money we made from trading with turkey, and then send the weapon to the Kurds... Now that's waht I call badass.

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## TheTruth

Support the Kurds, Armenians and Greeks instead.

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## Zsari

utp45 said:


> How exactly? We hardly buy anything from Turkey but sell a lot of stuff to them.Sanction is only going to hurt China more than it does to Turkey.
> 
> If you really want Turkey suffer, just buy weapons using the money we made from trading with turkey, and then send the weapon to the Kurds... Now that's waht I call badass.



Arming the Kurds will not only cause problem for Turkey, but Syria, Iran & Iraq as well.

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## TheTruth

Zsari said:


> Arming the Kurds will not only cause problem for Turkey, but Syria, Iran & Iraq as well.



Maybe engagement could be limited to helping them kill ISIS proxies and humanitarian aid.

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## pher

TheTruth said:


> Support the Kurds, Armenians and Greeks instead.


Doing both.



Zsari said:


> Arming the Kurds will not only cause problem for Turkey, but Syria, Iran & Iraq as well.


It needs some coordination, but we can pull that off together with russia. For example, let them agree that an independent Kurdstan can only happen on today's turkey soil.

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## 大汉奸柳传志

Zsari said:


> Arming the Kurds will not only cause problem for Turkey, but Syria, Iran & Iraq as well.


I think Kurds rising to world stage is inevitable. although we can try another more badass way to herd isis inside turkish border...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I quite don't understand why some Chinese flag bearer are angry at Turkey , specially since Turkey and China are no where near each other

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## Mutakalim

Superpowers are switching roles. Now China and Russia will spit crap about terrorism to achieve their goals in middle east at the expense of Muslims. But we are responsible of our own decline.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I quite don't understand why some Chinese flag bearer are angry at Turkey , specially since Turkey and China are no where near each other



Chinese over here complain that Uighurs (probably separatist faction) are supported by Turkey while Turks are denying that. Chinese are not warmongers, the Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi called for Peace in Syria. Thats what we Pakistanis are also advocating for. I hope Pakistan and China can reduce the tensions b/w Turkey and Russia as Pakistan has influence over Turkey while China has on Russia.

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## TheTruth

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Chinese over here complain that Uighurs (probably separatist faction) are supported by Turkey while Turks are denying that. Chinese are not warmongers, the Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi called for Peace in Syria. Thats what we Pakistanis are also advocating for. I hope Pakistan and China can reduce the tensions b/w Turkey and Russia as Pakistan has influence over Turkey while China has on Russia.



The Turks have supported Uyghur terrorism for hundreds of years. It's not a recent thing. They do this because they see the Chinese people as being weak pushovers they can bully for 0 political cost.

It's time they felt sharp pain for their actions so they can be denied this delusion once and for all.

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## deepak.chauhan2312

SaG E Jillani88 said:


> Superpowers are switching roles. Now China and Russia will spit crap about terrorism to achieve their goals in middle east at the expense of Muslims. But we are responsible of our own decline.




what will be Pakistan's stance in this changing scenario.Now China will not be most loved country of Muslims for too long as China will always support Russia against Turkey


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## Economic superpower

FairAndUnbiased said:


> If Chinese lack ambition to become a superpower, we will (deservedly) only become super poor.
> 
> This is a sink or swim world. If you do not swim, you sink. Everyone is a shark. Eat or be eaten. I don't know why all the KMT sympathizers and right wings always look back and say "oh things are soo different now". Sharks don't look back. They don't have necks. You know who have necks? Animals who get eaten by sharks. Be the shark.
> 
> Why is the J-15 called the Flying Shark and not the Flying Unicorn of Happiness? Exactly.



Quoted for truth.

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## cnleio

China welcome Russia ... just Russian won't like this, their popular much less than Chinese ... we r strategic partners not a super-power. Just right now they hate American more than Chinese.

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## cnleio

Unnecessary, just behind Russia.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Chinese over here complain that Uighurs (probably separatist faction) are supported by Turkey while Turks are denying that. Chinese are not warmongers, the Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi called for Peace in Syria. Thats what we Pakistanis are also advocating for. I hope Pakistan and China can reduce the tensions b/w Turkey and Russia as Pakistan has influence over Turkey while China has on Russia.


When Uighurs carrying Turkey passports, through Turkey into Syria, and some XinJiang separatism H.Q in Turkey city ... everything just proved Turkey playing dirty to China ... the solution is China will play it too, *u hurt China and China will hurt u badly. *Kurds will be the only winner after ISIS rising, it seems all Top5 support that. Chinese is not the blind & not fool, my friend ! China won't let the fire in our home like XinJiang, just lead the fire into their garden, it's flexible diplomacy.









*
*

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## Beidou2020

cnleio said:


> Unnecessary, just behind Russia.
> 
> 
> When Uighurs carrying Turkey passports, through Turkey into Syria, and some XinJiang separatism H.Q in Turkey city ... everything just proved Turkey playing dirty to China ... the solution is China will play it too, *u hurt China and China will hurt u badly. *Kurds will be the only winner after ISIS rising, it seems all Top5 support that. Chinese is not the blind & not fool, my friend ! China won't let the fire in our home like XinJiang, just lead the fire into their garden, it's flexible diplomacy.
> View attachment 276682
> 
> View attachment 276683



Turkey has been supporting the ETIM but China has been powerless to stop it. Turkey does that because it feels China won't do anything.

Without sanctions China cannot hurt Turkey.

China lacks the ruthless streak of a USA, Russia, France, UK, Japan, Turkey. Without that ruthless streak, countries think you are weak and always challenge you. There is no fear factor. This can be seen by even small countries in Asia not afraid to bully China knowing China is too nice to do anything. The no-first-use nuclear policy shows a very timid mentality in China. In 1962, China beat India and retreated instead of taking the land. It missed the moment and now will never get South Tibet back. Even against a weak Japan in the past China didn't finish off the Japanese. Once Japan got strong in the 20th century, it made China pay a very heavy price for its kindness.

Russia didn't even apply that much sanctions on Turkey, it was the intent of their actions that showed the world that Russia cannot be pushed around. 1 Russian death was enough to get a tough response, forget about the effectiveness of the sanctions, its the intent of the response, you mess with Russia, Russia will push back. America who is a ruthless country always challenges China in China's backyard because it knows China won't lift a finger.

Countries can hurt China, but China won't do anything. That's what the world sees. China is too nice and kind hearted to do anything. China lacks the ruthless mentality, that fear factor to intimidate. That intimidating factor is a major deterrence because a USA or Russia will use disproportionate force to punish sending a psychological message of "don't ever f*** with me or you will get a response in no uncertain terms".

Post #18 by @TheTruth nailed it. Sadly its not just the Turks that think Chinese people are weak pushovers and can bully with 0 political cost....its every country that thinks this way of China. His view is the prevailing view of China by others.

My poll was an experiment where I wanted to find out the mentality of people.

Killer instinct is important in a world full of ruthless hyenas.

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## Martian2

Why not just ignore the Turks?

The Turks have their hands full with Russia and Greece (e.g. violating Greek airspace about 2,000 times last year).

Obviously, the Turks have too much free time on their hands. Let them play their little games. It has no effect on China.

China's national policy is very clear. The South China Sea is a red line.

Focusing your resources and attention on truly important matters is logical. The South China Sea is 3 million square kilometers of resources. East Turkestan is never going anywhere.

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## mike2000 is back

Just like @Martian2 said , why should china join into sanctioning Turkey just because it wants to follow Russia's lead? Lol 
Makes no sense. You should all note that China is still a DEVELOPING COUNTRY like my friend @Chinese-Dragon said in another similar thread. So this means China still needs time to developed and mature before it can start adopting such economic policies against other countries. Doing so now will simply dampen China's economy and international standing/business confidence . There is no reason China should even think about sanctioning Turkey, since contrary to what people might think , the turkish government doesn't on any way supports terrorist groups in xijiang. Just because some turkish ultra nationalists are going out of their way to remotely provide support to the it girls doesn't means they are backed by the Turkish government. If that was the case , then we might as well deduce that Pakistani government is also supporting uygur terrorists groups against China , since there are quite a few Pakistani who sympathise with their Muslim uygurs brothers suffering oppression at the hands of the commie Chinese government, reason there have been reports of uygurs terrorists sheltering in Pakistan and carrying out attacks in China. Does that means the Pakistani government support these groups?? Obviously no. 

So we should avoid getting emotional on such issues. At least your leaders are more level headed/pragmatic reason they will never do such a childish thing which will harm them more than anything for no good reason.. Plus it will be politically damaging for China as well, since China has been the one speaking out against western power use of sanctions for a while now. I will like to see the Chinese criticise Russia's use of sanctions as well though. Lol I know that will never happen. Lol 

Anyway..,,Let Russia and Western powers keep on with their sanctions stuffs. They both know why they are using such methods. Not sure if Russia knows what it's getting itself into though.

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## cnleio

Beidou2020 said:


> Turkey has been supporting the ETIM but China has been powerless to stop it. Turkey does that because it feels China won't do anything.
> 
> Without sanctions China cannot hurt Turkey.
> 
> China lacks the ruthless streak of a USA, Russia, France, UK, Japan, Turkey. Without that ruthless streak, countries think you are weak and always challenge you. There is no fear factor. This can be seen by even small countries in Asia not afraid to bully China knowing China is too nice to do anything. The no-first-use nuclear policy shows a very timid mentality in China. In 1962, China beat India and retreated instead of taking the land. It missed the moment and now will never get South Tibet back. Even against a weak Japan in the past China didn't finish off the Japanese. Once Japan got strong in the 20th century, it made China pay a very heavy price for its kindness.
> 
> Russia didn't even apply that much sanctions on Turkey, it was the intent of their actions that showed the world that Russia cannot be pushed around. 1 Russian death was enough to get a tough response, forget about the effectiveness of the sanctions, its the intent of the response, you mess with Russia, Russia will push back. America who is a ruthless country always challenges China in China's backyard because it knows China won't lift a finger.
> 
> Countries can hurt China, but China won't do anything. That's what the world sees. China is too nice and kind hearted to do anything. China lacks the ruthless mentality, that fear factor to intimidate. That intimidating factor is a major deterrence because a USA or Russia will use disproportionate force to punish sending a psychological message of "don't ever f*** with me or you will get a response in no uncertain terms".
> 
> Post #18 by @TheTruth nailed it. Sadly its not just the Turks that think Chinese people are weak pushovers and can bully with 0 political cost....its every country that thinks this way of China. His view is the prevailing view of China by others.
> 
> Killer instinct is important in a world full of ruthless hyenas.
> 
> My poll was an experiment where I wanted to find out the mentality of people.


My friend, China need playing the flexible diplomacy to solve such problem ... *making friends and using friend-relationship to help us is the best way* ... China has many Diplomat cards in hand and China is also a big arms export dealer. Turkey isn't the main rival for China, no need waste too much attention to them,* i had said Turkey also has their own troubles inside home and near the border.* When u can depend on friends to solve ur problem, just support them no need standing in front.


Compared with Guns & Killing, the Benefits & Economy is the most powerful weapon for us to find the right agent working for u. I do believe the U.S 100% understand how to use this, China also knew how to use this to help us.

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## Martian2

There are two paradigms.

Chinese are pragmatic. A small problem (e.g. Turkish support for Uighur terrorists) deserves a small response.

Americans are more ideological. They'll impose economic sanctions on anyone. The United States imposed sanctions on Cuba for 50 years. The US also imposed sanctions on Iran, Venezuela, and even China.

For example, China cannot purchase American satellite parts.

Looking at the American track record, we can see that it didn't work.

Thus, being rational, economic sanctions should be avoided. If Turkey had shot down a Chinese jet then sanctions would be appropriate. However, Russia can take care of itself. Let the Russians impose sanctions on Turkey.

Furthermore, the Russians have refrained from suspending the South Stream joint project between Turkey and Russia. If the Russians aren't willing to go all the way, why would you do their work for them?

Finally, Russia has not asked China for sanctions help.

In conclusion, never get into the middle of other people's fights. China's primary goal remains national development. After China becomes as wealthy as Americans (circa $55,000 per capita GDP), we can talk about behaving like Americans at that time. Not now.

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## cnleio

Martian2 said:


> There are two paradigms.
> 
> Chinese are pragmatic. A small problem (e.g. Turkish support for Uighur terrorists) deserves a small response.
> 
> Americans are more ideological. They'll impose economic sanctions on anyone. The United States imposed sanctions on Cuba for 50 years. The US also imposed sanctions on Iran, Venezuela, and even China.
> 
> For example, China cannot purchase American satellite parts.
> 
> Looking at the American track record, we can see that it didn't work.
> 
> Thus, being rational, economic sanctions should be avoided. If Turkey had shot down a Chinese jet then sanctions would be appropriate. However, Russia can take care of itself. Let the Russians impose sanctions on Turkey.
> 
> Furthermore, the Russians have refrained from suspending the South Stream joint project between Turkey and Russia. If the Russians aren't willing to go all the way, why would you do their work for them?
> 
> Finally, Russia has not asked China for sanctions help.
> 
> In conclusion, never get into the middle of other people's fights. China's primary goal remains national development. After China becomes as wealthy as Americans (circa $55,000 per capita GDP), we can talk about behaving like Americans at that time. Not now.


Does China really need that higher per capita GDP (circa $55,000) ?! I think 1.4billion Chinese over $10,000 per capita GDP, already can make China GDP higher than U.S's ... and RMB & 'Made in China' can produce 95% what we needs.

My personal opinion is , when Chinese per capita GDP to reach $10,000~$20,000 ... there will be another new China, the world will be shocked !

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## Martian2

*Turkey is part of China's railway transport network to Europe. Russia is not.*

For 25 years, the Russians have always said "nyet" to China's proposals to build a railway transport route to Europe.

Instead, China has now formed a railway transport system to Europe via Central Asian states and Turkey.

In my opinion, Turkey is arguably a better business partner for China than Russia. The Russians have said "nyet" too many times. China should keep working with other countries, including Turkey.
----------

Agenda.ge - Cargo from China to Europe will pass through Georgia, bypassing Russia

*"Turkey and China together with Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Georgia have formed a syndicate to transport cargo from China to Europe, bypassing Russia.*

*Representatives of large transport logistic operators from Turkey, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Lithuania signed a deal cementing the multi-national partnership on November 28, 2015 in Turkey, Istanbul."*

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## CAPRICORN-88

I have always suspect that the cancellation of the *US3.4 billion missile deal by Turkey* is in fact an initiative of China to let Turkey to save her face. 

China may no longer be interested to sell or help Turkey with its advance weaponry modernization program.



Martian2 said:


> *Turkey is part of China's railway transport network to Europe. Russia is not.*
> 
> For 25 years, the Russians have always said "nyet" to China's proposals to build a railway transport route to Europe.
> 
> Instead, China has now formed a railway transport system to Europe via Central Asian states and Turkey.
> 
> In my opinion, Turkey is arguably a better business partner for China than Russia. The Russians have said "nyet" too many times. China should keep working with other countries, including Turkey.
> ----------
> 
> Agenda.ge - Cargo from China to Europe will pass through Georgia, bypassing Russia
> 
> *"Turkey and China together with Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Georgia have formed a syndicate to transport cargo from China to Europe, bypassing Russia.*
> 
> *Representatives of large transport logistic operators from Turkey, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Lithuania signed a deal cementing the multi-national partnership on November 28, 2015 in Turkey, Istanbul."*



But with the sanction against Russia by USA and some of her allies, there are great business opportunities for China-Russia trade and hence an alternative route may be proposed in addition to the original silk route destination is completed.

The Chinese are very pragmatic and realistic.

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## powastick

More of EU problem than China's problem if Turkey is really doing it.

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## CAPRICORN-88

cnleio said:


> Does China really need that higher per capita GDP (circa $55,000) ?! I think 1.4billion Chinese over $10,000 per capita GDP, already can make China GDP higher than U.S's ... and RMB & 'Made in China' can produce 95% what we needs.
> 
> My personal opinion is , when Chinese per capita GDP to reach $10,000~$20,000 ... there will be another new China, the world will be shocked !



* "To get rich is glorious." – Deng Xiaoping *

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## Viva_Viet

Economic superpower said:


> China can catch up to Russia militarily but China will never have the abundant natural resources Russia has nor the land area of Russia.
> 
> China is vulnerable being so dependent on natural resource imports.
> 
> Russia = great power.
> China = great power.
> Russia + China = superpower.
> 
> For anyone that followed Dragonball Z, the analogy is USA is pure evil Majin Buu, China is Goku, Russia is Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta by themselves are too weak to fight Majin Buu, but Goku and Vegeta combined can take on Majin Buu.


Russia and US can form another eight nation alliance to rule CN again.

Dont try to drag Russia to your low level.


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## Reashot Xigwin

Russia is a dying dog waiting to be put down.


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## cnleio

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Russia is a dying dog waiting to be put down.


Hummmmmmmmmm ... i never saw some 'dying dog' has over 6,000x nukes.


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## Nike

the point is, all the reasons OP stated here is the most potent reasons to be a cause for future Sino-Russian conflicts

abundant natural resources, checks
more land area for further industrialization and support for sustenance basic commodities (timber, foods), checks
the declining power and influence of Russia among CIS member, checks


@Nihonjin1051 @gambit @jhungary @Shotgunner51

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## Aepsilons

madokafc said:


> the point is, all the reasons OP stated here is the most potent reasons to be a cause for future Sino-Russian conflicts
> 
> abundant natural resources, checks
> more land area for further industrialization and support for sustenance basic commodities (timber, foods), checks
> the declining power and influence of Russia among CIS member, checks
> 
> 
> @Nihonjin1051 @gambit @jhungary @Shotgunner51




The population of Russian Federation : 144 million

The population of the People's Republic of China: 1.4 Billion


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## Nike

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The population of Russian Federation : 144 million
> 
> The population of the People's Republic of China: 1.4 Billion



not to mention, they are neighbor who shared land border


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## Beidou2020

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Russia is a dying dog waiting to be put down.



Without Russian/Soviet military support to the developing world, many countries would already be Western colonies.

The weapons of the developing world are all Russian. Even indigenous weapons are based on Russian technology.

It's easy to laugh at Russia but without them, colonisation would still going on by the West.

Only those brainwashed by the West will hate Russia.


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## TaiShang

I would say stay neutral *upfront, *stay rational, and ruthlessly pragmatic. Even a distant trace of ideology is dangerous as it might blind vision.

China still needs time and thus, so long as its most vital interests are not challenged (SCS build-up, Taiwan, borders etc), it does not need to adopt radical punitive measures.

Russia's action is out of basic national interests, as well. I do not see them being emotional. This is the partner we want. We are not seeking "ideological" partners based on abstract, emotional concepts. That's probably why China-Russia relations are going so well. For Putin is a cold-blooded rationalist.

However, this does not mean China would not have had geopolitical position. And China made it clear by vetoing (even when it did not have to because Russia was known to use veto anyways) Syrian resolution at the UNSC. That's grand politics at the highest level of international governance.

Instead of getting involved in petty economic fights with trade partners, China needs to further economize its foreign policy and build-up absolute national power at home. This involves a better protection of the borders, better law enforcement, and political will to ruthlessly eliminate the few marginal terrorist/separatist groups.

*China will certainly keep working with Russia at the highest possible terms on grand international issues, but this does not require to be involved in every petty turf wars, Syrian war being one of them. *There is no reason, logical explanation to get involved at such *basic *level.

So, keep and reinforce strategic partnership with Russia on major *global governance-related, and bilateral military issues, *but stay away from regional turf wars so long as it does not concern China in an existential way.

On this, I agree 100% with @Martian2 .

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## Reashot Xigwin

If you think nuke is a stick to measure a country power you going to be very disapointed.

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## Viva_Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The population of Russian Federation : 144 million
> 
> The population of the People's Republic of China: 1.4 Billion


Thats the reason why Russia bro needs VN. VN can send more pple to Russia to increase Russia ppltion...but Mr.Putin need to protect VN ethnic well.


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## gambit

Is Russia and China combined a superpower?

In the same way that the EU -- in its beginning -- was considered to be a 'superpower', militarily and economically. We know how that idea turned out, do we ? EU members are more ideologically and politically aligned than Russia and China have in common with each other, and yet the EU is under greater political stress today than before.

Sorry...But Is Russia and China combined a superpower? Nyet and 不.

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## Aepsilons

madokafc said:


> not to mention, they are neighbor who shared land border



There are many eyes, who vie for the piece of pie. 



Viva_Viet said:


> Thats the reason why Russia bro needs VN. VN can send more pple to Russia to increase Russia ppltion...but Mr.Putin need to protect VN ethnic well.



We can solve that ; Vietnam can join the Japanese Empire. You will never go hungry. Again. 



Viva_Viet said:


> Thats the reason why Russia bro needs VN. VN can send more pple to Russia to increase Russia ppltion...but Mr.Putin need to protect VN ethnic well.












gambit said:


> Nyet and 不


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## Viva_Viet

Nihonjin1051 said:


> There are many eyes, who vie for the piece of pie.
> 
> 
> 
> We can solve that ; Vietnam can join the Japanese Empire. You will never go hungry. Again.


Wow, since when JP also has Ah Q ?? JP is just US chess now, but dream too much,bro.


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## cnleio

Reashot Xigwin said:


> If you think nuke is a stick to measure a country power you going to be very disapointed.


The human building nuke weapons, the purpose is to use them ... nobody gave our promise there won't a nuclear war, we r living in a nuclear-balance world, just now not the right time to open 'Pandora-box' yet. The Russian has the most numbers of nuke ... i do believe even U.S can't put them down or afford a nuclear conflict with Russia. So Russia isn't the 'dying dog', *nobody wish Russia to die coz that will break our current Nuclear-Balance world.*


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## Viva_Viet

cnleio said:


> The human building nuke weapons, the purpose is to use them ... nobody gave our promise there won't a nuclear war, we r living in a nuclear-balance world, just now not the right time to open 'Pandora-box' yet. The Russian has the most numbers of nuke ... i do believe even U.S can't put them down or afford a nuclear conflict with Russia. So Russia isn't the 'dying dog', *nobody wish Russia to die coz that will break our current Nuclear-Balance world.*


EU is just the chess of USA, US try to stop Russia to dominate the whole European, but US wont risk a nuke war wt Russia there.

Mr.Putin also know that, so he wont form an alliance wt CN. He always think CN is at lower level. Itd better to form another Eight nation alliance to rule CN again than allying wt CN.


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## cnleio

Viva_Viet said:


> EU is just the chess of USA, US try to stop Russia to dominate the whole European, but US wont risk a nuke war wt Russia there.
> 
> Mr.Putin also know that, so he wont form an alliance wt CN. He always think CN is at lower level. Itd better to form another Eight nation alliance to rule CN again than allying wt CN.


Let me tell a truth here , the China position is *very smart* in this world ... U.S/ Europe/ Russia all need China, coz China has MONEY, MILITARY, MARKET. They all have hundred billions trades with China, which one attack China first also hurt other's benefits & interests trading with China. And China also is a nuclear power, it means a nuclear war with China pay more but get less, much less than trading with China each year.

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## Reashot Xigwin

Fk Russia. Those motherfuxkers can't be trusted


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## jhungary

madokafc said:


> the point is, all the reasons OP stated here is the most potent reasons to be a cause for future Sino-Russian conflicts
> 
> abundant natural resources, checks
> more land area for further industrialization and support for sustenance basic commodities (timber, foods), checks
> the declining power and influence of Russia among CIS member, checks
> 
> 
> @Nihonjin1051 @gambit @jhungary @Shotgunner51



It would be a lot easier to have a China - (Insert Nations Name here) together and claim to be a superpower.

How about China-Brazil-India? How about China-EU? How about China-Canada-Denmark?

The OPs condition had totally disregard the geopolitical situation. It would be the same as saying China + India can defeat the United States. Geopolitics is what separate the geographical power. And without regarding geopolitics, whatever people say is just a pipe dream.

Another issue is influence, not just hard control but soft control on the issue, if US were to go to war tomorrow, they will not do it alone, yet, would you think even Russia would go to war with China if China need them? That is what superpower can do, not just put some data together and try to proof what is superpower and what is not.


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## Beidou2020

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Fk Russia. Those motherfuxkers can't be trusted



West can be trusted. West is never hypocritical.

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## Reashot Xigwin

Beidou2020 said:


> West can be trusted. West is never hypocritical.



Ask the average Ukrainian or Georgian how they feel about Russia's treacherous behavior. You might find the answer to be unsurprising.

Also speaking of treacherous. Putin calling Turkey's action to be a stab in the back is bit hypocritical after what they did recently.


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## Beidou2020

Reashot Xigwin said:


> Ask the average Ukrainian or Georgian how they feel about Russia's treacherous behavior. You might find the answer to be unsurprising.
> 
> Also speaking of treacherous. Putin calling Turkey's action to be a stab in the back is bit hypocritical after what they did recently.



Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers and rightfully was punished by Russia. Ukraine attacked ethnic Russians in Crimea and East Ukraine because they refused to recognise the coup of Yanukovich. Russia rightfully punished Ukraine by giving Crimea a referendum and took by Crimea.

Russia helped China a lot in weapons technology, space program, technical know how. 

Putin is the best leader in the world by a country mile. His Munich security conference speech in 2007 is legendary. One of the greatest speeches ever given. 

Putin ended the Chechen war and revived Russian pride and honour. 

Putin also solved the border issue with China.

Putin is the greatest leader in 21st century and one of the greatest leaders of all time. 

When Putin speaks, I listen. He tells it like it is without the politically correct bullsh*t.

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## anon45

Don't see how this would benefit China, and it would cause China problems down the road if it should ever decide it needs some influence in the Middle-East.


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## Martian2

Beidou2020 said:


> Georgia attacked Russian peacekeepers and rightfully was punished by Russia. Ukraine attacked ethnic Russians in Crimea and East Ukraine because they refused to recognise the coup of Yanukovich. Russia rightfully punished Ukraine by giving Crimea a referendum and took by Crimea.
> 
> Russia helped China a lot in weapons technology, space program, technical know how.
> 
> Putin is the best leader in the world by a country mile. His Munich security conference speech in 2007 is legendary. One of the greatest speeches ever given.
> 
> Putin ended the Chechen war and revived Russian pride and honour.
> 
> Putin also solved the border issue with China.
> 
> Putin is the greatest leader in 21st century and one of the greatest leaders of all time.
> 
> When Putin speaks, I listen. He tells it like it is without the politically correct bullsh*t.


Putin's Russia is also very weak.

The Russian foreign exchange reserves have fallen from about $550 billion to $350 billion. Russia is burning through its emergency cash pile.

Russia is in a sanctions war with Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, and Ukraine. You can now add Turkey to the list. This means the Russian economy will be stunted for many years to come. The standards of living in Russia have plummeted.

The Russian Ruble has lost half its value in two years (from 30 to 60 Rubles per US Dollar).

Russian budget cuts are devastating the Russian economy.

Putin is paying a very high price for his political agenda. While Putin's political gains are laudable (e.g. annexing part of Georgia and Crimea) from a Russian perspective, it is unclear whether Russia can hold on to those gains.

Thus, it is not a good idea to advocate that China emulate Russia. Putin's Russia may have won in the short term, but it could lose everything in the long term. Without China extending about $72 billion of credit (or more) to Russia, the Russian economy would probably have imploded by now.

The bottom line is that China's policy is: "Steady as she goes." China is earning an incredible $600 billion in annual trade surpluses. Why rock the boat?

If you want a muscular Chinese foreign policy, why not wait 15 years? China's Navy would be completely built out. Also, China would be mass producing its second generation of stealth fighters. Give China time to mature economically, technologically, and militarily. That would be the optimal time to flex Chinese military muscles.

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## pher

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I quite don't understand why some Chinese flag bearer are angry at Turkey , specially since Turkey and China are no where near each other


your turk brother is capable of making enemies thousands mile away, this is their special talent.

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## type93

All countries that hate Isis should

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## Martian2

Ask yourself a basic question.

Who's stronger economically and technologically? Is it China or Russia?

Who's more prosperous? China or Russia?

If you think it's China then China has nothing to learn from the Russians. This means Chinese foreign policy is superior to Russia.

Putin has a massive plate of foreign policy headaches. Putin is at loggerheads with Georgia, Ukraine, European Union, United States, Canada, Australia, Turkey, and Japan (with the building of Russian military bases in the Kurils).

In contrast, China is good friends with just about everybody. China is firing on all cylinders. The economy is growing at US$1 trillion per year. The military upgrade is progressing nicely. China is extending its high-speed rail network into other countries (e.g. Laos and Thailand).

Why in the world would China want to accumulate intractable foreign policy problems like Russia?

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## CAPRICORN-88

Martian2 said:


> Ask yourself a basic question.
> 
> Who's stronger economically and technologically? Is it China or Russia?
> 
> Who's more prosperous? China or Russia?
> 
> If you think it's China then China has nothing to learn from the Russians. This means Chinese foreign policy is superior to Russia.
> 
> Putin has a massive plate of foreign policy headaches. Putin is at loggerheads with Georgia, Ukraine, European Union, United States, Canada, Australia, Turkey, and Japan (with the building of Russian military bases in the Kurils).
> 
> In contrast, China is good friends with just about everybody. China is firing on all cylinders. The economy is growing at US$1 trillion per year. The military upgrade is progressing nicely. China is extending its high-speed rail network into other countries (e.g. Laos and Thailand).
> 
> Why in the world would China want to accumulate intractable foreign policy problems like Russia?



Agree. War is never an option nor the game plan of the Chinese leadership today. 

That is why China did not responds to Obama's desperate provocation in the SCS.

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## Martian2

The reality is that Putin and his fellow Russian citizens are in a deep recession with no end in sight. Part of the blame is due to Russia's difficult foreign policy problems.

You cannot just look at the positive aspects of Russian foreign policy. You must also look at the cost. The cost is that Putin and all Russians face a difficult and uncertain economic future.

China has virtually unlimited amounts of money. In sharp contrast, Russia is about to go broke. Tell me again which country has the better foreign policy.
----------

Russia's Putin Tightens Belt for Another Year With 10% Pay Cut | News | The Moscow Times

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## Beidou2020

Martian2 said:


> Putin's Russia is also very weak.
> 
> The Russian foreign exchange reserves have fallen from about $550 billion to $350 billion. Russia is burning through its emergency cash pile.
> 
> Russia is in a sanctions war with Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, and Ukraine. You can now add Turkey to the list. This means the Russian economy will be stunted for many years to come. The standards of living in Russia have plummeted.
> 
> The Russian Ruble has lost half its value in two years (from 30 to 60 Rubles per US Dollar).
> 
> Russian budget cuts are devastating the Russian economy.
> 
> *Putin is paying a very high price for his political agenda.* While Putin's political gains are laudable (e.g. annexing part of Georgia and Crimea) from a Russian perspective, it is unclear whether Russia can hold on to those gains.
> 
> Thus, it is not a good idea to advocate that China emulate Russia. Putin's Russia may have won in the short term, but it could lose everything in the long term. Without China extending about $72 billion of credit (or more) to Russia, the Russian economy would probably have imploded by now.
> 
> The bottom line is that China's policy is: "Steady as she goes." China is earning an incredible $600 billion in annual trade surpluses. Why rock the boat?
> 
> If you want a muscular Chinese foreign policy, why not wait 15 years? China's Navy would be completely built out. Also, China would be mass producing its second generation of stealth fighters. Give China time to mature economically, technologically, and militarily. That would be the optimal time to flex Chinese military muscles.



It is not Putin's political agenda. It is the Western agenda of total world domination and they see Russia as the only obstacle to West's ultimate dream of total world domination. Controlling Eurasia is one of the objectives of the Western elite.

Russia is not going to bow down and meekly accept that. They will fight to the very death whatever cost it may have. This is why I admire Russia and Putin. Russians are a warrior race. You punch them, they punch back. You knock them down, they get back up. Russians are tough, never met one who wasn't. It is not easy to crush Russia, they have the ability to survive even under enormous suffering. Many have tried to eliminate Russia over the centuries from Napoleon to Hitler to America but they have all failed. Even without the Soviet Union, Russia is still the 2nd strongest country in the world. Russia won't ever go away. Putin is a patriot, not a Western puppet like so many others countries have. Xi Jinping, a Chinese patriot sees that in Putin and admires Putin.

Russia is doing a huge favour for China by keeping the West distracted. If Russia couldn't defend itself and easily surrendered to Western pressure (like a Yeltsin might have), then the West will concentrate all its efforts from weakening the only other threat to the West's world domination.....China.

Once the West puts all the pressure on China, China can do 2 things:
1) meekly surrender.
2) stand up and fight for its rights.

CPC is like Putin, they are patriots. They will choose to stand up and resist. Then the Western pressure will cause massive damage to the Chinese economy and all the damage happening to Russia will be even a greater scale due to China not being energy independent. Cut off the energy, eliminate the country. There is only so long a country can survive without energy. This is why its so difficult to eliminate Russia, they have the most important thing to survive....energy. You can make Russia suffer economically but you cannot totally eliminate them. This infuriates the Western elites like Zbigniew Brzezinski and other geo-strategists.

It is in China's interest to keep strong relations with Russia because Russia is the only friend that China has that can stand on its feet against the West. Without Russia on China's side, China has to deal with US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Australia, NATO.

With Russia by China's side, China's greatest weakness which is energy dependence on the Western controlled seas is diminished. Russia can supply China with oil, gas, coal, industrial metals.

When the West decides to give China the same treatment given to Russia for not doing what the West tells you to do, Chinese money will dry up very quickly. China will find out only Russia is there for help.

There is a reason Xi Jinping chose Russia as his first foreign visit.

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## Martian2

There is a third option. China can annex plenty of neighboring hostile countries if the West gets too aggressive. This will create buffer zones.

In any case, I see friendly Sino-Western relations for decades into the future.

The Russians are big enough and can protect themselves.

It seems illogical to me to lend Chinese power to another country when China's national interest (ie. red line) is not at stake.

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## Beidou2020

Martian2 said:


> There is a third option. China can annex plenty of neighboring hostile countries if the West gets too aggressive. This will create buffer zones.
> 
> In any case, *I see friendly Sino-Western relations for decades into the future.*
> 
> The Russians are big enough and can protect themselves.
> 
> It seems illogical to me to lend Chinese power to another country when China's national interest (ie. red line) is not at stake.



The SCS will be a big determination of this. If either China or the US don't back down from the SCS issue, I see a major problem. For the US, its entire reputation as the number 1 power in Asia hangs in the balance. For China, SCS is a core interest now.

China has taken a hardline position on the SCS, this means relations with the US and therefore the West will deteriorate in the future. Security interests always trump economic interests.

Western think tanks are already talking about full containment of China. Where does China turn to if the US decides to play hardball with China?

US unwise to play alliance card against China[1]- Chinadaily.com.cn

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## Martian2

Beidou2020 said:


> The SCS will be a big determination of this. If either China or the US don't back down from the SCS issue, I see a major problem. For the US, its entire reputation as the number 1 power in Asia hangs in the balance. For China, SCS is a core interest now.
> 
> China has taken a hardline position on the SCS, this means relations with the US and therefore the West will deteriorate in the future. Security interests always trump economic interests.
> 
> Western think tanks are already talking about full containment of China. Where does China turn to if the US decides to play hardball with China?
> 
> US unwise to play alliance card against China[1]- Chinadaily.com.cn


The SCS is not really an issue.

1. The US destroyer traveled close to a Chinese island under the following three conditions. Firstly, the radar had to be turned off. Secondly, no helicopter could be aloft. Thirdly, the ship could not stop.

Thus, the US destroyer transit was an "innocent passage" and not a Freedom of Navigation (FON).

2. If the SCS issue escalates, China would probably win due to its enormous logistical advantages.

In any case, the United States has its hands full with the Paris attack and Russian-Turkey/NATO tensions. Why not enjoy the timeout? The SCS won't be an issue until next year. Let's see how things develop then.

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## FairAndUnbiased

Martian2 said:


> The SCS is not really an issue.
> 
> 1. The US destroyer traveled close to a Chinese island under the following three conditions. Firstly, the radar had to be turned off. Secondly, no helicopter could be aloft. Thirdly, the ship could not stop.
> 
> Thus, the US destroyer transit was an "innocent passage" and not a Freedom of Navigation (FON).
> 
> 2. If the SCS issue escalates, China would probably win due to its enormous logistical advantages.
> 
> In any case, the United States has its hands full with the Paris attack and Russian-Turkey/NATO tensions. Why not enjoy the timeout? The SCS won't be an issue until next year. Let's see how things develop then.



pretty sure that the existing routes already go through Russia, just not new routes.







If we do not stand up against terrorism and fascism abroad today, the terrorists and fascists will come to us tomorrow. The twin evils of terrorism and fascism are both extreme threats to humanity.

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## Martian2

FairAndUnbiased said:


> pretty sure that the existing routes already go through Russia, just not new routes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we do not stand up against terrorism and fascism abroad today, the terrorists and fascists will come to us tomorrow. The twin evils of terrorism and fascism are both extreme threats to humanity.


I think those are proposed routes. Most haven't been built yet.

Regarding terrorism, let the United States and Russia bomb ISIS into oblivion. China's doesn't have to lift a finger.

If you are referring to Turkish support of Uighur terrorists then China would have to go to war against Turkey. This is a bad idea for three reasons.

1. Turkish support for Uighur terrorists is pretty minor. It amounts to fake passports. The solution is to stop accepting Turkish passports in China without a biometric-verified passport. This eliminates the problem of fake-identity passports.

2. Turkey is part of NATO. Declaring war on NATO should not be done on a whim.

3. Turkey is Islamic. Most of the world's oil is in the Middle East. Antagonizing the Islamic-bloc oil rich countries should require a Chinese Red Line, which does not presently exist.
----------

Here is the logic on economic sanctions.

Do you agree that the Russia-Turkey sanctions are lose-lose?

If yes, why would you want China to enter a lose-lose sanctions war against Turkey?

Thus, China should not impose sanctions on Turkey.

The logic is straight-forward. China's goal is win-win relationships, not lose-lose.

China's Red Lines are: Taiwan independence, Diaoyu Islands, and South China Sea.

I don't see Turkey on the list. Do you?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

cnleio said:


> Unnecessary, just behind Russia.
> 
> 
> When Uighurs carrying Turkey passports, through Turkey into Syria, and some XinJiang separatism H.Q in Turkey city ... everything just proved Turkey playing dirty to China ... the solution is China will play it too, *u hurt China and China will hurt u badly. *Kurds will be the only winner after ISIS rising, it seems all Top5 support that. Chinese is not the blind & not fool, my friend ! China won't let the fire in our home like XinJiang, just lead the fire into their garden, it's flexible diplomacy.
> View attachment 276682
> 
> View attachment 276683



I respect your opinion, sir. Chinese have patience. You people can wait for years, hundred of years to turn things in your favor. Your people are not hot headed.

In my humble opinion, China shouldn't become aggressive in world politics. People definitely want to see at least one Power among UNSC members playing wisely and responsibly than others. West has already done too much harm to regions. West has lost its credibility in the world. Every rising power is blessing to World from God.

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## Bilal.

China should not stop being Chinese and emulate the moronic neo-cons. What appears tempting will give nothing but short term and limited gain versus much more cost in the long run. Martin and Cnleio have articulated it very well in my opinion.

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## Adıvar

utp45 said:


> How exactly? We hardly buy anything from Turkey but sell a lot of stuff to them.Sanction is only going to hurt China more than it does to Turkey.
> 
> If you really want Turkey suffer, just buy weapons using the money we made from trading with turkey, and then send the weapon to the Kurds... Now that's waht I call badass.



Kurds are already sent weapons by the west. Problem is they do not know how to use them. They need first education, training which is not an easy job. 

They also need a cultural transformation. from a culture that allows incest, honor killings, drug traffic, female genital circumcision, social violation to a modern mindset.


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## cnleio

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> I respect your opinion, sir. Chinese have patience. You people can wait for years, hundred of years to turn things in your favor. Your people are not hot headed.
> 
> In my humble opinion, China shouldn't become aggressive in world politics. People definitely want to see at least one Power among UNSC members playing wisely and responsibly than others. West has already done too much harm to regions. West has lost its credibility in the world. Every rising power is blessing to World from God.


Anyways i just point out China knew who is behind our enemy, who is hurting us ... the flexible diplomacy base on one rule "Enemy's enemy is our friend and Enemy's friend isn't the friend " and Mao already taught China: "人不犯我我不犯人,人若犯我我必犯人" it means Chinese will push back, we know that China no mercy to terrorism & separatism.







Martian2 said:


> I think those are proposed routes. Most haven't been built yet.
> 
> Regarding terrorism, let the United States and Russia bomb ISIS into oblivion. China's doesn't have to lift a finger.
> 
> If you are referring to Turkish support of Uighur terrorists then China would have to go to war against Turkey. This is a bad idea for three reasons.
> 
> 1. Turkish support for Uighur terrorists is pretty minor. It amounts to fake passports. The solution is to stop accepting Turkish passports in China without a biometric-verified passport. This eliminates the problem of fake-identity passports.
> 
> 2. Turkey is part of NATO. Declaring war on NATO should not be done on a whim.
> 
> 3. Turkey is Islamic. Most of the world's oil is in the Middle East. Antagonizing the Islamic-bloc oil rich countries should require a Chinese Red Line, which does not presently exist.
> ----------
> 
> Here is the logic on economic sanctions.
> 
> Do you agree that the Russia-Turkey sanctions are lose-lose?
> 
> If yes, why would you want China to enter a lose-lose sanctions war against Turkey?
> 
> Thus, China should not impose sanctions on Turkey.
> 
> The logic is straight-forward. China's goal is win-win relationships, not lose-lose.
> 
> China's Red Lines are: Taiwan independence, Diaoyu Islands, and South China Sea.
> 
> I don't see Turkey on the list. Do you?


Russia is the only way to Europe, not Turkey ... coz Middle-East is in hell, Turkey might become next. 'The Silk Road' won't go through war-zone.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Adıvar said:


> Kurds are already sent weapons by the west. Problem is they do not know how to use them. They need first education, training which is not an easy job.
> 
> They also need a cultural transformation. from a culture that allows incest, honor killings, drug traffic, female genital circumcision, social violation to a modern mindset.



Bro, One question over here. West is ally of Turkey then why it will send weapons to Kurds knowing that Kurds are against Turkey? What is your opinion about this?

We both are new members over here.


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## Adıvar

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Bro, One question over here. West is ally of Turkey then why it will send weapons to Kurds knowing that Kurds are against Turkey? What is your opinion about this?
> 
> We both are new members over here.


Kurds are not against Turkey. The Kurdish Regional Government of Iraq has very good relations with the present Turkish government. West send weapons to kurdish peshmergea in Iraq .

However, kurdish PKK, which is also recognized as a terrorist organisation by the west, is a threat to civilians for Turkey that must be exterminated.

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## Lure

cnleio said:


> Anyways i just point out China knew who is behind our enemy, who is hurting us ... the flexible diplomacy base on one rule "Enemy's enemy is our friend and Enemy's friend isn't the friend " and Mao already taught China: "人不犯我我不犯人,人若犯我我必犯人" it means Chinese will push back, we know that.
> View attachment 276883
> 
> 
> 
> Russia is the only way to Europe, not Turkey ... coz Middle-East is in hell, Turkey might become next. 'The Silk Road' won't go through war-zone.



One does always see what he wants to see. Let me show you another Turkey. Shall we?

From Labour Day.






















From Gezi Protests











Opening of Chinese Museum in Turkey






A Child's painting from National Sovereignty and Children's Day in Turkey






You can hate whatever you wanna hate. You can also hate my country. However don't make a few lunatics as an excuse for your hate. It just makes it worse, because those idiots thinks they are very strong and very important.

By the way those lunatics were always supported and nurtured by the West with Operation Gladio in the last 40 years. Where were your country? Why didn't you support left in Turkey? We are walking in a very thin line here, they are supported by Gulf countries, by the West, by everybody. On contrary who supported leftists or seculars in Turkey? No one. You've sit there in Shanghai watched all the action while leftists were being hunted down in Istanbul. Now you are angry with Turkey because Turkey became very conservative and ultra nationalistic. What would you expect? I guess leftists and seculars were stubborn enough to get 35% of the votes(CHP+Other leftist movements).

Please all Chinese members here reply this. What would you expect without any support to democratic, progressive and leftist people in Turkey!?

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## FairAndUnbiased

Martian2 said:


> I think those are proposed routes. Most haven't been built yet.
> 
> Regarding terrorism, let the United States and Russia bomb ISIS into oblivion. China's doesn't have to lift a finger.
> 
> If you are referring to Turkish support of Uighur terrorists then China would have to go to war against Turkey. This is a bad idea for three reasons.
> 
> 1. Turkish support for Uighur terrorists is pretty minor. It amounts to fake passports. The solution is to stop accepting Turkish passports in China without a biometric-verified passport. This eliminates the problem of fake-identity passports.
> 
> 2. Turkey is part of NATO. Declaring war on NATO should not be done on a whim.
> 
> 3. Turkey is Islamic. Most of the world's oil is in the Middle East. Antagonizing the Islamic-bloc oil rich countries should require a Chinese Red Line, which does not presently exist.
> ----------
> 
> Here is the logic on economic sanctions.
> 
> Do you agree that the Russia-Turkey sanctions are lose-lose?
> 
> If yes, why would you want China to enter a lose-lose sanctions war against Turkey?
> 
> Thus, China should not impose sanctions on Turkey.
> 
> The logic is straight-forward. China's goal is win-win relationships, not lose-lose.
> 
> China's Red Lines are: Taiwan independence, Diaoyu Islands, and South China Sea.
> 
> I don't see Turkey on the list. Do you?



Economic sanctions is not war. I also don't agree that sanctions against Turkey are lose-lose for Russia. It's only their loss. Turkey has nothing Russia wants.

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## Martian2

FairAndUnbiased said:


> Economic sanctions is not war. I also don't agree that sanctions against Turkey are lose-lose for Russia. It's only their loss. Turkey has nothing Russia wants.


Economics sanctions is a form of war waged by one country against another. The technical term is "economic warfare."

Russia wants Turkey's inexpensive food imports. Turkey controls access from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. Turkey is a country of 80 million consumers. Russia has only suspended (but not canceled) talks on the South Stream gas pipeline from Russia to Turkey to Europe.

It is puzzling to me that there seems to be strong support among some Chinese for Russia.

I am neither pro- or anti-Russia. Similarly, I am neither pro- or anti-Turkey. I am simply objective.

An impassioned analysis shows that there had been no bridge connecting China to Russia for 25 years (since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989). I think a railway bridge between China and Russia is being built or recently inaugurated. Nevertheless, there is still no bridge for cars or trucks.

Furthermore, there is no oil or gas pipeline from Russia to China. However, there is plenty of Russia oil and gas pipelines to Europe and Turkey. For 25 years, the Russians decided they would only sell their oil and gas to Europeans and Turks. China has to pay more for oil transported by rail cars.

Additionally, Russia was willing to give the Turks an 8% discount on gas sent to Turkey. In contrast, Iran played hardball with China and refused a 1.5% requested discount over a 30 year high-volume purchase. It is reasonable to assume that China requested an identical 1.5% discount from Russia. This was also refused by the Russians.

For the last 25 years, the Russians have given preferential trade privileges to Europeans and Turks. The Russians have played hardball with China.

China's economic allies are Turkmenistan, which currently supplies China with 30 bcm (ie. billion cubic meters) of gas via pipeline that is set to increase to 60 bcm in the next 3 years. Also, Kazakhstan is a reliable supplier of oil via pipeline. China has long-term contracts with Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan.

In my view, China should use its political power on behalf of Turkmenistan or Kazakhstan. The Russians are only being nice to China temporarily, because the Russians currently have disputes with all of its preferential trade partners. The Russians had been putting the economic screws to China for 25 years. They are hardly China's ally. Once the disputes are settled, the Russians will go back to favoring European and Turkish business partners.

For example, the steel gas pipelines for South Stream have already been built. The contractors were Germans and Japanese. None were Chinese. The Russians have excluded Chinese contractors from large Russian projects.

Prior to the latest Russia-West crisis, not a single Chinese oil contractor had been invited to participate in Arctic oil drilling. All were western companies. Once again, Chinese companies were excluded by the Russians.

The Russians were very insistent on building pipelines to the Pacific Ocean. Russian oil and gas were to be sold on the world market. It is only the recent glut of oil supply and the rift with the West and Japan (because Japan joined Western sanctions against Russia) that Russia agreed to an oil and gas pipeline to China. The original Russian plan was to bypass China.

The Russian geopolitical strategy is pretty clear. Do everything possible to keep China weak. The Russians need China temporarily. However, the Russians have no intention of being China's long-term partner. It is unwise for China to throw its weight forcefully behind Russia.

The better plan is to continue the long-term Chinese foreign policy. China remains neutral.

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## Jlaw

Martian2 said:


> Economics sanctions is a form of warfare waged by one country against another. The technical term is "economic warfare."
> 
> Russia wants Turkey's inexpensive food imports. Turkey controls access from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. Turkey is a country of 80 million consumers. Russia has only suspended (but not canceled) talks on the South Stream gas pipeline from Russia to Turkey to Europe.
> 
> It is puzzling to me that there seems to be strong support among some Chinese for Russia.
> 
> I am neither pro- or anti-Russia. Similarly, I am neither pro- or anti-Turkey. I am simply objective.
> 
> An impassioned analysis shows that there had been no bridge connecting China to Russia for 25 years (since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989). I think a railway bridge between China and Russia is being built or recently inaugurated. Nevertheless, there is still no bridge for cars or trucks.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no oil or gas pipeline from Russia to China. However, there is plenty of Russia oil and gas pipelines to Europe and Turkey. For 25 years, the Russians decided they would only sell their oil and gas to Europe and Turks. China has to pay more for oil transported by rail cars.
> 
> Additionally, Russia was willing to give the Turks an 8% discount on gas sent to Turkey. In contrast, Iran played hardball with China and refused a 1.5% requested discount over a 30 year high-volume purchase. It is reasonable to assume that China requested an identical 1.5% discount from Russia. This was also refused by the Russians.
> 
> For the last 25 years, the Russians have given preferential trade privileges to Europeans and Turks. The Russians have played hardball with China.
> 
> China's economic allies are Turkmenistan, which currently supplies China with 30 bcm (ie. billion cubic meters) of gas via pipeline that is set to increase to 60 bcm in the next 3 years. Also, Kazakhstan is a reliable supplier of oil via pipeline. China has long-term contracts with Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan.
> 
> In my view, China should use its political power on behest of Turkmenistan or Kazakhstan. The Russians are only being nice to China temporarily, because the Russians currently have disputes with all of its preferential trade partners. The Russians had been putting the economic screws to China for 25 years. They are hardly China's ally. Once the disputes are settled, the Russians will go back to favoring European and Turkish business partners.
> 
> For example, the steel gas pipelines for South Stream have already been built. The contractors were Germans and Japanese. None were Chinese. The Russians have excluded Chinese contractors from large Russian projects.
> 
> The Russian geopolitical strategy is pretty clear. Do everything possible to keep China weak. The Russians need China temporarily. However, the Russians have no intention of being China's dual partner. It is unwise for China to throw its weight forcefully behind Russia.
> 
> The better plan is to continue the long-term Chinese foreign policy. China remains neutral.



Yes. Agreed. I do not think China-Russia are natural allies in the long term. China have more overall interests with the west than with Russia.

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## flist3773

I categorically agree with Martian. I also don't understand blind faith and support for Russia from some Chinese members. Frankly, in my opinion, Russia is punching above its weight in geopolitical arena from a nation of mere $1 trillion USD GDP whose citizens are enjoying -10% in their real wages. Good thing is our diplomats are not emotional and always focus our interest first. I read many credible analysis on China - Russia gas contract that the terms are in favor of China (the contract itself is secret so no one knows for sure, but analysts with good track records all seem to agree that the terms of contract are in favor of China. 

I think it is in China's national interest to develop far stronger tie with Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan as well as other stans nations. Let Russia think Eurasian ECONOMIC Union can help her maintain grip on Central Asia. Let Russia spend $700 billions on modernizing her nuclear arsenals at the expense of ordinary citizens' living standards. 

Also, some people say Russia will survive this sanction from EU and the USA. Well, sure.. unless Russia is annihilated by the US's nuclear first strike, it will survive. But at what cost? 

@Martian2 Martian2, when are you going to post your analysis on Chinese semiconductor industry? So many things have occurred and I would like to know where China stands right now.

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## TheTruth

Martian2 said:


> There is a third option. China can annex plenty of neighboring hostile countries if the West gets too aggressive. This will create buffer zones.
> 
> In any case, I see friendly Sino-Western relations for decades into the future.
> 
> The Russians are big enough and can protect themselves.
> 
> It seems illogical to me to lend Chinese power to another country when China's national interest (ie. red line) is not at stake.



Agree, but Turkey needs to pay a proportional price for their terrorism. It should be separate but China should recognize that Turkey has a lot of enemies, and make them suffer if they continue to sponsor Uyghur terrorists. Sanctions or direct military action would be premature, but rather proportional overtures to Turkeys many enemies with whom there are common interests should be made.

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## Beidou2020

China is surrounded by enemies from US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Australia.

China's only friend is Russia. Countries like North Korea and Pakistan are liabilities, not assets for China.

The only saving grace for China is that there is a rift in Russian-Western relations. If Russia turned against China, China would be cornered from the north, east, south and west.

Without Russia, China is completely isolated. Western countries, Japan, India will never be China's true friends.

Without Russia, China would be way behind in military weapons and space program. Pretty much all the major weapons in China right now are Russian. West has banned weapons and space cooperation with China for a long time.

The West has already started its containment of China. Japan and India has joined their alliance.

Lose Russia as an ally, China would have a nightmare on its hands.

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## TaiShang

Martian2 said:


> The reality is that Putin and his fellow Russian citizens are in a deep recession with no end in sight. Part of the blame is due to Russia's difficult foreign policy problems.
> 
> You cannot just look at the positive aspects of Russian foreign policy. You must also look at the cost. The cost is that Putin and all Russians face a difficult and uncertain economic future.
> 
> China has virtually unlimited amounts of money. In sharp contrast, Russia is about to go broke. Tell me again which country has the better foreign policy.



It just happened that Russia has been aggressively surrounded by the West and their allies. I do not see this as a weakness of Russian diplomacy. It just happens that Russia is at the center of Eurasian geopolitics militarily, and the West must subdue or at least cripple it.

China is strong and untouchable. But the perception is that its geopolitical strength lies in economy and a number of connectivity schemes. Hence the West appears to be bent on dealing with the military colossus that they see as a threat rather than the economic one.

It is just how history developed beyond anyone's power.

This almost ensures that Russia's and China's position toward the Western aggression would be different at the stage in appearance, although, in essence, I see both of them as revolutionary and emancipatory. Therefore it would be perhaps injustice to name Russia's economic woes without naming the geopolitical challenges it faces. It happens that, unlike China, Russia simply cannot put off the NATO threat at its doorsteps.

If something similar happens and West challenges China the way it challenges Russia now, I am sure, China's response would not be different because, both China and Russia are fiercely sovereign nations, as @Beidou2020 says.

Right now, I agree that, China's position is balanced, as you very analytically pointed out, and suits national interests. But, peace times are the best to get ready for war. That's the reason why China's military development, including island build-up, goes at full speed. Unfortunately, Russia does not have the same economic hinterland China enjoys, and this justifies the assistance China offers to Russia. Because, at the end of the day, China and Russia nurture a very very similar conceptualization of global governance. The fate of the two nations are sealed together. Hence the strategic partnership at the highest level.

I am confident in the high spirit and dignity of the Russian nation. This is make or break moment to ensure that the world is saved from US-led Western hegemony. There is no likelihood of a Russian defeat, for sure, it is the MAD option eventually, hence, Russia will go through this and, hopefully, the events will further prove the vibrancy and logic of China-Russia partnership.



Lure said:


> By the way those lunatics were always supported and nurtured by the West with Operation Gladio in the last 40 years. Where were your country? Why didn't you support left in Turkey? We are walking in a very thin line here, they are supported by Gulf countries, by the West, by everybody. On contrary who supported leftists or seculars in Turkey? No one. You've sit there in Shanghai watched all the action while leftists were being hunted down in Istanbul. Now you are angry with Turkey because Turkey became very conservative and ultra nationalistic. What would you expect? I guess leftists and seculars were stubborn enough to get 35% of the votes(CHP+Other leftist movements).
> 
> Please all Chinese members here reply this. What would you expect without any support to democratic, progressive and leftist people in Turkey!?



Anytime Turkey is mentioned within the context of Uighur/radical Islamist terrorism, this point must be stressed over and over again -- that the country, by its founding principles, is actually peace-oriented, secular, and, proponent of social-democratic values. It still is home to a sizable progressive/secular population who are in fact paying a torturing, bloody price for their political stance.

I have studied 20th century revolutionaries, hence, within this context, Ataturk and his war of independence. This is the basis of my knowledge of Turkey. I can confidently say that, Ataturk ideas of public life, foreign policy, religion and progress is our contemporary.

The problem is that politics, and heck, the entire state has been hijacked by a very cunning radical Islamist clique who are hell-bent to destroy whatever remained of the values of the secular republic. It seem like a theater, literally, to the perennial struggle between reactionary and progressive forces. Turkey joined NATO under a government very similar to today's. They fought China in Korea under a government that politicized religion and sided with reactionary Western/regional forces.

For some reason, as Lure points out, Turkey's left/secular/progressives have not been given much international support. The West always sided with the reactionaries because they are more inclined to act as sold-outs for some distant ideology or material benefits.

We really need to keep things in greater perspective otherwise risk becoming a prey to the Western narratives. Uighur ethno-religious terrorism is real and the links to some Turkish radicals (including government officials) can be established, but still, there are millions that want a radical departure from such ethno-sectarian foreign policy but are simply over-powered. While taking every logical steps to harshly deal with threats to national security, China can still keep friendly relations with the progressives of Turkey. Even President Putin makes this distinction, which shows a high level of political consciousness.

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## Lure

TaiShang said:


> While taking every logical steps to harshly deal with threats to national security, China can still keep friendly relations with the progressives of Turkey. Even President Putin makes this distinction, which shows a high level of political consciousness.



Thanks a lot. That was what I'm trying to explain for some time. The more foreigners say Turkey is a convervative/radical/fundementalist country the more they are getting stronger. Not the ones who can oppose them. Altough we are overpowered, as you say, we do still exist. And we are not that few. There are millions of people.

Let me give you an example what happened to Maoists in Turkey. After Sino-Soviet split Turkish left was also divided into two main camps. One of them was the Marxist-Lenist camp, and the second one was the Maoist camp. TİP (Turkish Worker's Party) was the political party of Maoist movement in 70's. 7 TİP supporter university students was executed cold blodedly by the same lunatics that are burning Chinese flag today.

Bahçelievler massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me beriefly mention what happened back in 70's when Turkish left was much stronger. CHP was taking around 40% votes back then. I'm copying from Wikipedia,

Bülent Ecevit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bülent Ecevit (leader of CHP back in 70's) recalled that he learned for the first time of the existence of Operation Gladio, a secret "stay-behind" NATO army, in 1974. He has also said he suspected "Counter-Guerrilla", the Turkish branch of Gladio, of responsibility for the 1 May 1977 Taksim Square massacre in Istanbul, during which snipers fired on a protest rally of 500,000 citizens, killing 38 and injuring hundreds. CHP defeated AP in the 1977 general elections by gathering 41% of the votes (the election came just after the events of 1 May). But with 213 seats out of 450 Ecevit could not receive a vote of confidence (see 40th government of Turkey). In 1978 Ecevit formed his third government (42nd government of Turkey). However, after a defeat in by-elections in 1979, he resigned.

Taksim Square massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ever since the Taksim Square Massacre, the fact that none of the perpetrators were caught and brought to justice has fueled allegations that the Turkish branch of Operation Gladio, the Counter-Guerrilla, was involved. One of the first persons to raise such allegations was the then leader of the opposition Bülent Ecevit. At a meeting in Izmir, he said on 7 May: "*Some organizations and forces within the State, but outside the control of the democratic State of law, have to be taken under control without losing time. The counter-guerrilla is running an offensive and has a finger in the 1 May incident.*" Later he declined to comment on the incident, just like the then Prime Minister Süleyman Demirel. But in a confidential letter Demirel sent to Ecevit, he warned his rival that he might become the victim of the same circles, if he would speak at Taksim Square on 3 June 1977. The letter that was disclosed by Ecevit warned that shots might be fired from Sheraton (now the InterContinental) Hotel. The forces to conduct such an attack in order to spoil the stability of Turkey Demirel were suspected to be "illegal communist or terrorist organizations" or "foreign enterprises or international terrorist organizations" that had been encouraged by the incidents on Taksim Square on 1 May 1977.

Maoists were hunted down and assassinated, Worker's were shot with automatic rifles in Labour Day, leader of CHP -which is also the founding party of Turkish Republic and a 40% vote taking party back then- is threatened to be assassinated if he ever mentions Gladio. And whoever were to protect leftist/secularist and progressive people? I wish we had some type of agressive help instead of agressive insults from our eastern friends like Russians and Chinese back then.

I'm very thankful that just like Putin does, CPC also gives a sane response and doesn't alienate all of us.

By the way, let me finish with a funny story. Ultra nationalist groups in Turkey were protesting for Uyghur cause. In the mean time a Korean tourist group passes by them. Those idiots didn't even think for one second that from which nationality actually they could be and attacked Koreans thinking that they were attacking Chinese tourists. LOL.

Source : VIDEO: Turkish nationalists protesting China attack Korean tourists in Istanbul - POLITICS

Here is the leader of far right MHP leader Devlet Bahçeli's remarks about the issue :

Source : Koreans and Chinese 'both have slanted eyes,’ Turkey’s nationalist leader says over attacks on tourists - POLITICS

Yeap he didn't say attacking tourists is not a way protest or a shameful act and should be avoided. Instead he said "both Koreans and Chinese has slanted eyes, it's impossible to distinguish them". Which is of course pretty racist but he doesn't even know that he's being racist and very offending, I guess.

And the funniest one. Those crazies attacked a Chinese restaurant while protesting at another event. They've beaten the chef heavily. And they were right this time, chef was a Chinese citizen however he was an Uyghur Turk. LOL. Look at the irony here, they've beaten an Uyghur for supporting Uyghur cause.

Source : Istanbul Chinese restaurant attacked in protest at Uighur suppression - LOCAL

Those are the guys you(and we) are dealing with.

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## Martian2

Beidou2020 said:


> China is surrounded by enemies from US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Australia.
> 
> China's only friend is Russia. Countries like North Korea and Pakistan are liabilities, not assets for China.
> 
> The only saving grace for China is that there is a rift in Russian-Western relations. If Russia turned against China, China would be cornered from the north, east, south and west.
> 
> Without Russia, China is completely isolated. Western countries, Japan, India will never be China's true friends.
> 
> Without Russia, China would be way behind in military weapons and space program. Pretty much all the major weapons in China right now are Russian. West has banned weapons and space cooperation with China for a long time.
> 
> The West has already started its containment of China. Japan and India has joined their alliance.
> 
> Lose Russia as an ally, China would have a nightmare on its hands.


I think China has more options than you think.

1. Annex Mongolia (four Californias)
2. Annex Myanmar (Texas size)
3. Annex Vietnam (1,800 mile coastline)
4. Annex India (1/3rd the size of China and all tropical zone, which means four growing seasons per year)

At this point, China is almost twice its old size. It can hold out against the US for perpetuity.

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## bsruzm

Oh my god...


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## Beidou2020

Lure said:


> A Child's painting from National Sovereignty and Children's Day in Turkey
> 
> View attachment 276893









Beautiful drawing 

Shows the innocence of children.
It's very sad innocent children have to suffer due to the foolishness of adults.

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## TheTruth

Lure said:


> Thanks a lot. That was what I'm trying to explain for some time. The more foreigners say Turkey is a convervative/radical/fundementalist country the more they are getting stronger. Not the ones who can oppose them. Altough we are overpowered, as you say, we do still exist. And we are not that few. There are millions of people.
> 
> Those are the guys you(and we) are dealing with.



I'll have to agree with you. It was always the enemies of Ataturk who have been our enemies also. Thanks for being sensible as usual. When dealing with the likes of atoiletwolf or bruszm you need massive, brutal force though, so my goal at least was to just get them as angry as possible in the hopes that they mess up their terrorist plotting and kill themselves. It is also unquestionable that the Uyghur are not natives to Xinjiang and any other interpretation of history is fanciful. So that lie must also be rejected strongly.

Regardless China ought to engage closer with most Muslims who simply want to live in peace. It should be the best weapon against shit-eating animals such as those Grey Wolves.

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## Bilal.

Beidou2020 said:


> China is surrounded by enemies from US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Australia.
> 
> China's only friend is Russia. Countries like North Korea and Pakistan are liabilities, not assets for China.



So Pakistan is a liability to China. Is China feeding us? Has China fought our wars? Does China need to step in to stop aggression against Pakistan? No. We are very much capable of all that and have been doing so... On the other hand Pakistan has resisted and failed encirclement of China in the early days, it helped bring US close to you when USSR turned against you and now is again helping you circumvent hostile countries with CPEC. Liability my foot.

I pray for China's sake that neocon wanna be like you are not representative of Chinese thinking in general.

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## Beidou2020

Bilal. said:


> So Pakistan is a liability to China. Is China feeding us? Has China fought our wars? Does China need to step in to stop aggression against Pakistan? No. We are very much capable of all that and have been doing so... On the other hand Pakistan has resisted and failed encirclement of China in the early days, it helped bring US close to you when USSR turned against you and now is again helping you circumvent hostile countries with CPEC. Liability my foot.
> 
> I pray for China's sake that neocon wanna be like you are not representative of Chinese thinking in general.



Chillax bud.

Liability was the wrong word. What I was trying to point out is that Pakistan and North Korea are not as big an asset as Russia is for China. Of course Pakistan is a very important country to China.

Even if China had Britain, France, Germany and Japan as allies, I don't think those countries combined would be as big an asset as Russia would be for China.

You need one big and powerful ally instead of many medium powerful allies. China needs an ally with energy reserves, industrial metal reserves, very powerful military with a large nuclear arsenal, UNSC with veto power, independent foreign policy so it won't be coerced by foreign powers and also an ally that's next to China to transport those energy and metals without going through the seas.

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## Brainsucker

Martian2 said:


> I think China has more options than you think.
> 
> 1. Annex Mongolia (four Californias)
> 2. Annex Myanmar (Texas size)
> 3. Annex Vietnam (1,800 mile coastline)
> 4. Annex India (1/3rd the size of China and all tropical zone, which means four growing seasons per year)
> 
> At this point, China is almost twice its old size. It can hold out against the US for perpetuity.



Today is no longer the era of annexation. Plus, annexing a country is very-very expensive, and troublesome.


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## meis

Brainsucker said:


> Today is no longer the era of annexation. Plus, annexing a country is very-very expensive, and troublesome.


Having client state, puppet state, buffer state are still a cool thing to do tho.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I quite don't understand why some Chinese flag bearer are angry at Turkey , specially since Turkey and China are no where near each other


Turk trained and funded the Uyghur separatists.

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## I S I

Perfect example of "Begaani shaadi main abdullah deewana".


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## Viet

Martian2 said:


> I think China has more options than you think.
> 
> 1. Annex Mongolia (four Californias)
> 2. Annex Myanmar (Texas size)
> 3. Annex Vietnam (1,800 mile coastline)
> 4. Annex India (1/3rd the size of China and all tropical zone, which means four growing seasons per year)
> 
> At this point, China is almost twice its old size. It can hold out against the US for perpetuity.


what about Germany, the country has a long coast line as well as many islands too?
or is it too small for you? how about EU?


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## EAsian

Martian2 said:


> I think China has more options than you think.
> 
> 1. Annex Mongolia (four Californias)
> 2. Annex Myanmar (Texas size)
> 3. Annex Vietnam (1,800 mile coastline)
> 4. Annex India (1/3rd the size of China and all tropical zone, which means four growing seasons per year)
> 
> At this point, China is almost twice its old size. It can hold out against the US for perpetuity.


I don't think we will want these sh1tholes,unless you have some trillions of dollars to give them for us.

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## meis

type93 said:


> All countries that hate Isis should


Why hate ISIS? Because it's troubling the West/Europe? And the refugee crisis too? You know what is funny? ISIS never attack Israel. I wonder why.

I love ISIS. I'd hug them 24/7. Yea I just said that just for the sake of multi-polar world.

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## Place Of Space

meis said:


> Why hate ISIS? Because it's troubling the West/Europe? And the refugee crisis too? You know is funny? ISIS never attack Israel. I wonder why.
> 
> I love ISIS. I'd hug them 24/7. Yea I just said that just for the sake of multi-polar world.



Smart posts, I would love ISIS more if it only target at mighty officers and the dumb medias like Charlie.

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## Viet

EAsian said:


> I don't think we will want these sh1tholes,unless you have some trillions of dollars to give them for us.


you sound as if you are a rapist demanding money from the victim for the rape.
you talk of "we". can you tell me how many retards think like you in China?


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## Martian2

*Russia unfairly excludes Chinese companies from huge Russian infrastructure projects*

Japan and Germany are major suppliers of the multi-billion dollar Russian South Stream gas pipeline. Chinese companies were not allowed to bid.

Japan's Sumitomo is a major contractor in the Russian Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline across the Black Sea. Japan's "Marubeni-Itochu and Sumitomo" have a 40% work-share of the Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline.

Let Russia implore Japan and Germany to join its economic sanctions against Turkey. Chinese companies are unfairly excluded from Russian government procurement. The Russians stand alone. China should not join in any Russian sanctions against a third country. China simply does not have a stake. The Russians should ask Japan's Sumitomo and the Japanese government for help.
----------

"It ordered pipes from as far afield as *Japan and Germany* for the 2,400-kilometre (1,491-mile) South Stream pipeline..."

Turkey row leaves Russia stuck with abandoned gas pipes worth billions| Reuters






----------

China is excluded from the massive Russian gas pipeline project! China is not allowed to bid.

"Eleven groups bid on the project, with companies from Austria, Belgium, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia and Sweden vying for the contract."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/b...line-project-in-bulgaria-is-delayed.html?_r=0





----------

Japan's "Marubeni-Itochu and Sumitomo" have a 40% work-share of the Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline.

http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2014/march/article186355/

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## mike2000 is back

Martian2 said:


> *Russia unfairly excludes Chinese companies from huge Russian infrastructure projects*
> 
> Japan and Germany are major suppliers of the multi-billion dollar Russian South Stream gas pipeline. Chinese companies were not allowed to bid.
> 
> Japan's Sumitomo is a major contractor in the Russian Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline across the Black Sea. Japan's "Marubeni-Itochu and Sumitomo" have a 40% work-share of the Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline.
> 
> Let Russia implore Japan and Germany to join its economic sanctions against Turkey. Chinese companies are unfairly excluded from Russian government procurement. The Russians stand alone. China should not join in any Russian sanctions against a third country. China simply does not have a stake. The Russians should ask Japan's Sumitomo and the Japanese government for help.
> ----------
> 
> "It ordered pipes from as far afield as *Japan and Germany* for the 2,400-kilometre (1,491-mile) South Stream pipeline..."
> 
> Turkey row leaves Russia stuck with abandoned gas pipes worth billions| Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> China is excluded from the massive Russian gas pipeline project! China is not allowed to bid.
> 
> "Eleven groups bid on the project, with companies from Austria, Belgium, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia and Sweden vying for the contract."
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/b...line-project-in-bulgaria-is-delayed.html?_r=0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> Japan's "Marubeni-Itochu and Sumitomo" have a 40% work-share of the Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline.
> 
> http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2014/march/article186355/



LOL Partner/friend indeed. I must confess the Russians are very good at deception(almost as good/at par as Britain). Keep it up chess master Putin.



Martian2 said:


> I think China has more options than you think.
> 
> 1. Annex Mongolia (four Californias)
> 2. Annex Myanmar (Texas size)
> 3. Annex Vietnam (1,800 mile coastline)
> 4. Annex India (1/3rd the size of China and all tropical zone, which means four growing seasons per year)
> 
> At this point, China is almost twice its old size. It can hold out against the US for perpetuity.



Stop trolling dude. So far you have been making quite factual/Good analysis. Why destroy everything now??



Beidou2020 said:


> China is surrounded by enemies from US, Japan, India, Vietnam, Philippines, Australia.
> 
> China's only friend is Russia. Countries like North Korea and Pakistan are liabilities, not assets for China.
> 
> The only saving grace for China is that there is a rift in Russian-Western relations. If Russia turned against China, China would be cornered from the north, east, south and west.
> 
> Without Russia, China is completely isolated. Western countries, Japan, India will never be China's true friends.
> 
> Without Russia, China would be way behind in military weapons and space program. Pretty much all the major weapons in China right now are Russian. West has banned weapons and space cooperation with China for a long time.
> 
> The West has already started its containment of China. Japan and India has joined their alliance.
> 
> Lose Russia as an ally, China would have a nightmare on its hands.



Funny enough, i agree with you to some extent.
However, to be honest European powers U.K,France and Germany don't really consider/see China as a threat unlike all the other countries you mentioned there.

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## dy1022

As personal emotion, I'd like to see China to do something for harm Turkey badly!


But for China as a nation, should only cares about China's national interests first!


others = bullsh!ts!

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## cnleio

China won't get into the trouble of Middie-East conflict, now it's the mainstream thought inside China ... China will continue doing oil business with Middle-East nations, also will give support to Russia. Bets on both sides, BeiJing just watching at outside.

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## Tiqiu

@Lure 
A very good post which helps people like me know more, or another side of Turkey. Regardless what is happening nowadays Turkey does have a long history you can be proud of. Turkey should devote its self into developing the country like China did hard in the past.

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## Jlaw

Brainsucker said:


> Today is no longer the era of annexation. Plus, annexing a country is very-very expensive, and troublesome.


I believe if what Martian meant is if China is forced into that situation of "do" or "die" than there are no other options.

@Martian2

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## 帅的一匹

Turkey shall stop providing shelter to those Uygher seperatists and terrorists ASAP.

China is very much like doing business and flexible, but we certainly has bottom line as well. Turkey overtly or covertly supporting Uygher seperatists and terrorists are well known in China, the ambitious is too big to be hidden. Being Turkic doesn't mean you are pretty much superior to dictate other country's domestic affairs.

In my eyes, Erdogan is an extremist for sure.

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## Martian2

Jlaw said:


> I believe if what Martian meant is if China is forced into that situation of "do" or "die" than there are no other options.
> 
> @Martian2


That's the obvious context, but the anti-China trolls don't care.

I have said many times. The Roman Empire started out as a city-state. The Romans were surrounded by powerful neighbors. The Romans defeated the Etruscans, Greeks, and Carthaginians. Thus, the Romans built a massive empire.

I'm suggesting that history could repeat itself. There is a danger in the constant China-bashing and threats against China.

Like Rome, China may decide to defend itself militarily. The outcome should be the same. China should start absorbing its non-friendly neighbors to create a massive empire.

It is only a historical observation that the anti-China group of nations will regret their public threats and behind-the-scene maneuvers. China is most likely to annex these hostile countries.

The point is very simple. Rome neutralized the threats from its neighbors by annexing them. China is likely to walk in Rome's footsteps. The same problem has the same solution.

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## mike2000 is back

Martian2 said:


> That's the obvious context, but the anti-China trolls don't care.
> 
> I have said many times. The Roman Empire started out as a city-state. The Romans were surrounded by powerful neighbors. The Romans defeated the Etruscans, Greeks, and Carthaginians. Thus, the Romans built a massive empire.
> 
> I'm suggesting that history could repeat itself. There is a danger in the constant China-bashing and threats against China.
> 
> Like Rome, China may decide to defend itself militarily. The outcome should be the same. China should start absorbing its non-friendly neighbors to create a massive empire.
> 
> It is only a historical observation that the anti-China groups of nations will regret their public threats and behind-the-scene maneuvers. China is most likely to annex these hostile countries.
> 
> The point is very simple. Rome neutralized the threats from its neighbors by annexing them. China is likely to walk in Rome's footsteps. The same problem has the same solution.



WOW........Interesting, so you want to be like the 'imperialist/hegemonic evil' western powers which your people like to criticize/label every-time?? I thought China was a peaceful rising power who will NEVER seek hegemony/dominate his neighbors by force unlike 'Evil' western powers who colonized and still impose their rules on the world. 
Welcome to the club then, i knew it was only a matter of time when you get stronger. Be careful though, you might become the target of leftists/countries in the developing world who will start labeling you as another 'imperialist' just like the west today. 

Good luck with your plan though.

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## Shotgunner51

Lure said:


> One does always see what he wants to see. Let me show you another Turkey. Shall we?
> 
> From Labour Day.
> 
> View attachment 276894
> 
> 
> View attachment 276884
> 
> 
> View attachment 276885
> 
> 
> View attachment 276889
> 
> 
> 
> From Gezi Protests
> 
> View attachment 276886
> 
> 
> View attachment 276890
> 
> 
> Opening of Chinese Museum in Turkey
> 
> View attachment 276892
> 
> 
> A Child's painting from National Sovereignty and Children's Day in Turkey
> 
> View attachment 276893
> 
> 
> You can hate whatever you wanna hate. You can also hate my country. However don't make a few lunatics as an excuse for your hate. It just makes it worse, because those idiots thinks they are very strong and very important.
> 
> By the way those lunatics were always supported and nurtured by the West with Operation Gladio in the last 40 years. Where were your country? Why didn't you support left in Turkey? We are walking in a very thin line here, they are supported by Gulf countries, by the West, by everybody. On contrary who supported leftists or seculars in Turkey? No one. You've sit there in Shanghai watched all the action while leftists were being hunted down in Istanbul. Now you are angry with Turkey because Turkey became very conservative and ultra nationalistic. What would you expect? I guess leftists and seculars were stubborn enough to get 35% of the votes(CHP+Other leftist movements).
> 
> Please all Chinese members here reply this. What would you expect without any support to democratic, progressive and leftist people in Turkey!?




Very well written post, it's good for us to see different sides of the story especially in a plural society like Turkey, thanks!

There is no deep rooted hate in general, but people are naturally wary of separatist movement, and dislike anything that supports it, foreign or domestic. The emotion is especially negative when China adopts a business-only non-interference diplomacy since 1980's, exports E&M machineries instead of ideology or war.

Please continue to speak up for the progressive, leftists or seculars in Turkey, the outside world including this generation of Chinese have heard little of it. I might translate and send to Chinese media here, there's always hope for a better change my friend.

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## LowPost

Martian2 said:


> Putin has a massive plate of foreign policy headaches. Putin is at loggerheads with Georgia, Ukraine, European Union, United States, Canada, Australia, Turkey, and Japan (with the building of Russian military bases in the Kurils).



Before coming to that conclusion you need to ask yourself the question why NATO, a product of the Cold War, still exists in the first place despite the breakup of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Russia has proven that it is willing to respectfully cooperate with the US-led West, such as in containing nuclear proliferation and counterterrorism efforts in Central Asia. Unfortunately, we have yet to see the West return the favour:

pledge to not expand eastward after German reunification is broken
crippling Serbia, a traditional Russian ally under the false pretext of genocide during the Yugoslav Wars

encouraging ill will against Russia in the former Soviet states
giving the go ahead for Georgia to attack South Ossetia
unilateral withdrawal of the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002
financial and moral backing for colour revolutions in former Soviet countries to expand America's sphere of influence and to win more military allies
pushing a Russophobic agenda politically
Jackson-Vanik amendment
blocking of Russia's WTO entry
Well, we see a continued vilification of Russia in Western MSM and Putin is challenged by an increasingly assertive NATO. China is in a similar situation, so it is merely natural for both Moscow and Beijing to end the historical issues for good and to work together. But even without these aggressions by the US-led West we would see Russia and China treat each other like partners. @vostok also said once that a war between China and Russia is less likely than a conflict between Canada and the US.



Bilal. said:


> So Pakistan is a liability to China. Is China feeding us? Has China fought our wars? Does China need to step in to stop aggression against Pakistan? No. We are very much capable of all that and have been doing so... On the other hand Pakistan has resisted and failed encirclement of China in the early days, it helped bring US close to you when USSR turned against you and now is again helping you circumvent hostile countries with CPEC. Liability my foot.
> 
> I pray for China's sake that neocon wanna be like you are not representative of Chinese thinking in general.



Bear in mind that he is in fact German American, not Chinese. 


Also, shout out to @Lure's contributions for providing us an insight on Turkey's turbulent history in domestic politics.



Martian2 said:


> *Russia unfairly excludes Chinese companies from huge Russian infrastructure projects*
> 
> Japan and Germany are major suppliers of the multi-billion dollar Russian South Stream gas pipeline. Chinese companies were not allowed to bid.
> 
> Japan's Sumitomo is a major contractor in the Russian Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline across the Black Sea. Japan's "Marubeni-Itochu and Sumitomo" have a 40% work-share of the Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline.
> 
> Let Russia implore Japan and Germany to join its economic sanctions against Turkey. Chinese companies are unfairly excluded from Russian government procurement. The Russians stand alone. China should not join in any Russian sanctions against a third country. China simply does not have a stake. The Russians should ask Japan's Sumitomo and the Japanese government for help.
> ----------
> 
> "It ordered pipes from as far afield as *Japan and Germany* for the 2,400-kilometre (1,491-mile) South Stream pipeline..."
> 
> Turkey row leaves Russia stuck with abandoned gas pipes worth billions| Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> China is excluded from the massive Russian gas pipeline project! China is not allowed to bid.
> 
> "Eleven groups bid on the project, with companies from Austria, Belgium, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia and Sweden vying for the contract."
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/b...line-project-in-bulgaria-is-delayed.html?_r=0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> Japan's "Marubeni-Itochu and Sumitomo" have a 40% work-share of the Gazprom South Stream gas pipeline.
> 
> http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2014/march/article186355/



There might be conflicting interests between the two nations but it is premature to argue that this is an indication that Putin is trying to double-cross China.



Martian2 said:


> *Turkey is part of China's railway transport network to Europe. Russia is not.*
> 
> For 25 years, the Russians have always said "nyet" to China's proposals to build a railway transport route to Europe.
> 
> Instead, China has now formed a railway transport system to Europe via Central Asian states and Turkey.
> 
> In my opinion, Turkey is arguably a better business partner for China than Russia. The Russians have said "nyet" too many times. China should keep working with other countries, including Turkey.
> ----------
> 
> Agenda.ge - Cargo from China to Europe will pass through Georgia, bypassing Russia
> 
> *"Turkey and China together with Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Georgia have formed a syndicate to transport cargo from China to Europe, bypassing Russia.*
> 
> *Representatives of large transport logistic operators from Turkey, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Lithuania signed a deal cementing the multi-national partnership on November 28, 2015 in Turkey, Istanbul."*



It is true that China-Russia ties in commerce pales in comparison to business between China and the US, for instance, but it is very likely that we will see closer economic cooperation a, not just because of the anti-Russian sanctions.



Martian2 said:


> The reality is that Putin and his fellow Russian citizens are in a deep recession with no end in sight. Part of the blame is due to Russia's difficult foreign policy problems.
> 
> You cannot just look at the positive aspects of Russian foreign policy. You must also look at the cost. The cost is that Putin and all Russians face a difficult and uncertain economic future.
> 
> China has virtually unlimited amounts of money. In sharp contrast, Russia is about to go broke. Tell me again which country has the better foreign policy.
> ----------
> 
> Russia's Putin Tightens Belt for Another Year With 10% Pay Cut | News | The Moscow Times



There are plenty of alternative partners for Russia and we have heard many stories in the past about the assumption that Russia's economy is bound to collapse. Those who believed in these were disappointed. Sanctions and the low oil prices are taking a toll but Moscow is doing a good job in handling the difficulties.

https://www.rt.com/business/322526-russia-apec-economy-investment/




Martian2 said:


> Economics sanctions is a form of war waged by one country against another. The technical term is "economic warfare."
> 
> Russia wants Turkey's inexpensive food imports. Turkey controls access from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. Turkey is a country of 80 million consumers. Russia has only suspended (but not canceled) talks on the South Stream gas pipeline from Russia to Turkey to Europe.
> 
> It is puzzling to me that there seems to be strong support among some Chinese for Russia.
> 
> I am neither pro- or anti-Russia. Similarly, I am neither pro- or anti-Turkey. I am simply objective.
> 
> An impassioned analysis shows that there had been no bridge connecting China to Russia for 25 years (since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989). I think a railway bridge between China and Russia is being built or recently inaugurated. Nevertheless, there is still no bridge for cars or trucks.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no oil or gas pipeline from Russia to China. However, there is plenty of Russia oil and gas pipelines to Europe and Turkey. For 25 years, the Russians decided they would only sell their oil and gas to Europeans and Turks. China has to pay more for oil transported by rail cars.
> 
> Additionally, Russia was willing to give the Turks an 8% discount on gas sent to Turkey. In contrast, Iran played hardball with China and refused a 1.5% requested discount over a 30 year high-volume purchase. It is reasonable to assume that China requested an identical 1.5% discount from Russia. This was also refused by the Russians.
> 
> For the last 25 years, the Russians have given preferential trade privileges to Europeans and Turks. The Russians have played hardball with China.
> 
> China's economic allies are Turkmenistan, which currently supplies China with 30 bcm (ie. billion cubic meters) of gas via pipeline that is set to increase to 60 bcm in the next 3 years. Also, Kazakhstan is a reliable supplier of oil via pipeline. China has long-term contracts with Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan.
> 
> In my view, China should use its political power on behalf of Turkmenistan or Kazakhstan. The Russians are only being nice to China temporarily, because the Russians currently have disputes with all of its preferential trade partners. The Russians had been putting the economic screws to China for 25 years. They are hardly China's ally. Once the disputes are settled, the Russians will go back to favoring European and Turkish business partners.
> 
> For example, the steel gas pipelines for South Stream have already been built. The contractors were Germans and Japanese. None were Chinese. The Russians have excluded Chinese contractors from large Russian projects.
> 
> Prior to the latest Russia-West crisis, not a single Chinese oil contractor had been invited to participate in Arctic oil drilling. All were western companies. Once again, Chinese companies were excluded by the Russians.
> 
> The Russians were very insistent on building pipelines to the Pacific Ocean. Russian oil and gas were to be sold on the world market. It is only the recent glut of oil supply and the rift with the West and Japan (because Japan joined Western sanctions against Russia) that Russia agreed to an oil and gas pipeline to China. The original Russian plan was to bypass China.
> 
> The Russian geopolitical strategy is pretty clear. Do everything possible to keep China weak. The Russians need China temporarily. However, the Russians have no intention of being China's long-term partner. It is unwise for China to throw its weight forcefully behind Russia.
> 
> The better plan is to continue the long-term Chinese foreign policy. China remains neutral.



I find it interesting that you are using 'the Russians', so to me you seem to imply that the Kremlin consists of Sinophobes in disguise. To my mind it would be viable for Russia to adopt an anti-China policy IF it had the full backing of NATO, America's MNNAs and other states that are at odds with China. But I only see this happening if pro-West puppets were to take over the Kremlin after a colour revolution which has become highly improbable since the NGO law was enacted. The puppeteers of these pro-West politicians would be the hawks in Washington, London or another NATO member, the same forces that want both Russia and China to bend their knees. Putin knows their intentions very well and he has more often than not faced them.

Putin is a very pragmatic leader who enjoys a very high level of popularity, thus I am sure that his successor will likely follow his footsteps and it is impossible for pro-West liberals to win the people's hearts, contrary to the narrative in Western MSM. And no, it is not because the average Russian is brainwashed to worship Putin. Backstabbing China would indeed harm both nations but given the current geopolitical state of affairs Russia would commit suicide, hence it would pay a much higher price than China so it is ridiculously daft for the Kremlin to do so right now and in the foreseenable future. And here's a rule of thumb for you:

Pragmatic Russians see China as a strong and reliable partner.
Pragmatic Chinese see Russia as a strong and reliable partner.

Yes, Putin and Xi fall in their individual category. A possible motive for an anti-China stance on the part of Russia may be explained by the uneasy history between China and Russia in the end, pragmatism prevails over nationalism and blind grudges.

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## Martian2

With the collapse of commodity prices, everyone around the world wants to know how to industrialize. Brazil just fell into junk bond status. India is one notch above junk. S&P downgraded Russian debt to junk in January 2015.

In contrast, China's credit rating is AA-.

How do other countries industrialize and prosper like China? They keep studying China's policy reforms. They don't understand that is not sufficient. Regardless of the world's most friendly investment climate, you need someone to show up and take advantage of your policies and build your country into an industrial & technological power.

China intelligently welcomed foreign investors in 1978 when it opened up its economy. However, the real key was the Taiwanese that started flooding in with their money, intended-product-lines, clients, and technology. Taiwanese were comfortable in China, because they spoke the same language and shared the same culture.

Taiwanese have shown no inclination to move in large numbers into other countries. Other countries set up special economic zones, but the Taiwanese are worried that their investment may be seized at any time or due to a newly elected nationalist president. Hence, Taiwanese are only comfortable investing in mainland China.

The Taiwanese are important, because they are the risk-takers. They took a gamble in China. After the Taiwanese grew into a large presence in China, the South Koreans moved in to take advantage of the lower costs and Taiwan-trained skilled labor. After the South Koreans, the Japanese moved in due to similar competitive pressure. Next came the Europeans. Finally, the Americans.

Without the Taiwanese to kick off the process and transfer a lot of technology, there is no way a country can industrialize within our lifetime.
----------

Crisis in Emerging Markets: Is China’s Model Better Than Russia’s? - Institute of Modern Russia

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia sign missile-defense deal*
December 17, 2015

China and Russia have signed an agreement on the sale of Russia's S-400 surface-to-air missile system, a senior manager of Russia's leading technology corporation said on Wednesday.

In addition, Russia is planning to use China's spacecraft equipment, Dmitriy Shugaev, deputy CEO in charge of international affairs at Rostec, a State-owned company in charge of Russia's arms exports, told China Daily.

He said that the S-400 deal "is important to both Russia and China" and China will be the first foreign user of the missile system, but he declined to reveal the deal's details, saying they "are too sensitive to be revealed".

According to Russian media reports, the S-400 is a new-generation air defense system capable of engaging any aerial target, including airplanes, helicopters, drones and cruise and tactical ballistic missiles. The system's 40N6 missile can destroy airborne targets up to 400 km away.

*China clinched the deal in September last year, at a cost of more than $3 billion for the delivery of an unknown number of S-400s, Moscow Times reported.*

Currently, China relies on its domestically developed HQ-9 and the Russian-made S-300 missile systems for mid- and long-range air defense.

Wu Peixin, a military observer in Beijing, said that as one of the world's best anti-aircraft weapons systems, the S-400 will give the People's Liberation Army a big boost to its long-range, high-altitude air defense network.

"The system has several types of missiles that are capable of intercepting cruise missiles and tactical ballistic missiles, which means it is suitable to be deployed around important governmental or military sites to safeguard those vital places," he said.

Vasily Kashin, a senior analyst at the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told Russia's Sputnik news agency that* the long range of the S-400 will allow the PLA to engage targets over the East China Sea. "These missiles are capable of shooting down targets in the Diaoyu Islands airspace from the Chinese mainland."*

Shugaev, the Rostec deputy CEO, said Russia is in negotiations with China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp and China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp on the procurement of China-developed spacecraft instruments such as electronic and satellite communications devices.

Spokesmen for the two Chinese companies could not be reached for comment.

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## beijingwalker

*Russia China Could Sign Contract on Joint Heavy Helicopterby Mid-2016*


16:19 16.12.2015(updated 16:31 16.12.2015) Get short URL
 025140
*Rostec deputy CEO on international affairs said that Russia’s state technologies corporation and China's Avicopter expect to sign a general contract and an intergovernmental agreement on the joint development of a heavy-lift helicopter by mid-2016.*


BEIJING (Sputnik) – Russia’s state technologies corporation Rostec and China's Avicopter expect to sign a general contract and an intergovernmental agreement on the joint development of a heavy-lift helicopter by mid-2016, the Rostec deputy CEO on international affairs said Wednesday.


"We can say that both sides have aspirations to reach the signing of the contractual obligations and the intergovernmental agreement by the middle of next year. These are normal terms for such an amount of work," Dmitriy Shugaev said.

According to Shugaev, the contract would not be signed by the end of 2015, as previously expected.

According to Head of Rostec Beijing office Alexey Grishin, the parties came to the conclusion that it would be efficient "to sign subcontracts for the development of the main systems and components of the helicopter simultaneously with the general contract."

Grishin explained that it would help the sides to more accurately estimate the volume and cost of the work, as well as the areas covered by each parties.

In May, Russian Helicopters, part of Rostec, and the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) signed a framework cooperation agreement to introduce an advanced heavy-lift helicopter with maximum take-off weight of 38.2 tons.

Demand for the new helicopter in China is expected to surpass 200 helicopters during the period until 2040.

Russia’s state technologies corporation Rostec plans to sign wide-ranging strategic cooperation agreements with two Chinese industrial firms, Deputy Chief Executive said.

Rostec’s agreements with China North Industries Corporation (Norinco) and China Southern Power Grid Company (CSGC) will be concluded at the 20th annual Russia-China heads of state bilateral summit on Thursday.

"With this document, we close our series of agreements with major Chinese companies. Thus we cover the entire palette of our ties with Chinese partners. These are mainly power equipment, automotive components, optical devices and materials, medical equipment and high-precision machines," Shugaev said.

The two deals are planned to be signed in the presence of Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and his Chinese counterpart Li Keqiang, who co-chair the 20th summit.

"This will allow Russian and Chinese companies to begin cooperating in promoting mutual trade, investment and technical cooperation in high technologies," Shugaev said.

Norinco and CSGC are two of China’s 10 largest military-industrial complex corporations and rank 152nd and 169th, respectively, among 500 leading global companies.
Russia, China Could Sign Contract on Joint Heavy Helicopter by Mid-2016
With 46 subsidiaries, Norinco’s sales volume totaled nearly $400 billion last year, followed by nearly $300 billion by CSGC.



Read more: Russia, China Could Sign Contract on Joint Heavy Helicopter by Mid-2016

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## dy1022

great!

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## TaiShang

*Russian Deputy Finance Minister Sergei Storchak said that Russia and China will sign a bilateral memorandum on cooperation of two finance ministries.*

BEIJING (Sputnik) — Representatives of both Russian and Chinese finance ministries are expected to sign on December 17 a memorandum on mutual access to the debt markets of the two states, Deputy Finance Minister Sergei Storchak said Wednesday.

*Russian delegation, headed by Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, is visiting China between December 14 and 17,* where a number of intergovernmental agreements are expected to be signed.






Medvedev Hopes to Sign Large Number of Agreements With China Thursday

"Tomorrow we are signing a bilateral memorandum on cooperation of two [finance] ministries. The main point, I think, [is] the sides' obligations to work on creation of conditions for mutual access of the concerned parties to the debt markets of Russia and China," Storchak told RIA Novosti.

He added that the memorandum would also address the issues of cooperation between the treasuries of the two states.

*China is Russia's leading economic partner. In 2014, bilateral trade between the countries amounted to $95 billion. Currently, the two countries are actively cooperating in many fields, most notably in finance, energy, infrastructure and defense.*

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## KediKesenFare3

And what about China's own system? 
Is it that bad?


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## beijingwalker

KediKesenFare said:


> And what about China's own system?
> Is it that bad?


They are complementary ,actually your country tested that and showed it is one of the best in the world.

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## TaiShang

KediKesenFare said:


> And what about China's own system?
> Is it that bad?



The more, the merrier.

+ Geopolitics.

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## Beidou2020

S-400 and Su-35 deals will be a big boost for the PLA.

Bad news for Japan.

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## dy1022

KediKesenFare said:


> And what about China's own system?
> Is it that bad?




we refused to do TOT on HQ-9 to turkey, that's all you need to know!

Turkey's MLRS and SRBM are the resluts of TOT from China, but we won't do that anymore even a mockey version!

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## Daniel808

TaiShang said:


> *the long range of the S-400 will allow the PLA to engage targets over the East China Sea. "These missiles are capable of shooting down targets in the Diaoyu Islands airspace from the Chinese mainland."*



When those Pilot from Japan flying over Diayou Islands Airspace, will be in a Cold sweats. 

S-400 is Really a Good stuff.
Right know Diayou islands airspace is Safe 




TaiShang said:


> *In addition, Russia is planning to use China's spacecraft equipment, *Dmitriy Shugaev, deputy CEO in charge of international affairs at Rostec, a State-owned company in charge of Russia's arms exports, told China Daily.




Wow, That's new for me.
Nice one !

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## dy1022

Should deploy these S-400 missile systems to East China Sea and China's south sea as soon as possible!


just Lock some fighters from Japan and Vietnam for FUN!

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## Akasa

KediKesenFare said:


> And what about China's own system?
> Is it that bad?



Judging from the respective air/missile defense programs of the two countries, it seems that Russia's forte is in anti-aircraft surface-to-air missiles while China is more proficient in anti-ballistic and anti-satellite systems. This could be intentional or merely due to divergent paths in R&D. Either way, the two complement each other quite nicely.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia demonstrates interest in the Chinese HQ-19/26/29 systems (all of which have been tested) in the near future, as China has done so with the S400.

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## Zarvan

Not sure about S-400 but I would love to see S-350 in large numbers in Pakistan

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## dy1022

Zarvan said:


> Not sure about S-400 but I would love to see S-350 in large numbers in Pakistan




maybe you can see HQ-9 in Pakistan

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## Stag112

We have been told repeatedly that HQ9 is improved version of S300. But looks like China wants to make an "improved version" of S400 called HQ10.

@dy1022 since you used the word "monkey version", tell us will Russia also give you the monkey version of S400?


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## dy1022

Stag112 said:


> We have been told repeatedly that HQ9 is improved version of S300. But looks like China wants to make an "improved version" of S400 called HQ10.
> 
> @dy1022 since you used the word "monkey version", tell us will Russia also give you the monkey version of S400?





That's rich from an indian, whos' nation has countless failed projects like LCA,Arjun,Insas,GTX-35VS...


Monkey S-400 or not, we have own things, unlike useless India, can't even built anything by itself!



Let me remind you nicely, after 68 years of independence, India is the one still poorer than Sub-Sahara Africa!

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## Zarvan

dy1022 said:


> maybe you can see HQ-9 in Pakistan


I think Pakistan may have already bought some HQ-9

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## Stag112

dy1022 said:


> That's rich from an indian, whos' nation has countless failed projects like LCA,Arjun,Insas,GTX-35VS...
> 
> 
> Monkey S-400 or not, we have own things, unlike useless India, can't even built anything by itself!
> 
> 
> 
> Let me remind you nicely, after 68 years of independence, India is the one still poorer than Sub-Sahara Africa!



To be honest, I was not expecting anything more than off topic rants when I pointed out your arrogance. When India, Vietnam, Phiilpines buys its a monkey version, when China buys its better than the original - reason, because some Indian projects failed.

Classic high IQ on display.


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## cnleio

KediKesenFare said:


> And what about China's own system?
> Is it that bad?


China HQ-9, my friend ... the long-range SAM Turkey tested and planed to purchase in 2014. As far as i knew HQ-9 already not the latest SAM in China, PLA will have HQ-26 or HQ-9B.

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## tanlixiang28776

Using Indian logic that China buying weapons equals inferior domestic products what exactly does that entail for everything India imports including 5.56 bullets.

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## dy1022

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Using Indian logic that China buying weapons equals inferior domestic products what exactly does that entail for everything India imports including 5.56 bullets.




indians are worthless in here, better ignore them!

we have no time wasting for indian!

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## oproh

Abe-san might suffer from heart attack after hearing this news.

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## oproh

I think that the bilateral trade between the countries is still low. Hopefully both China and Russia will continue to find better ways to strengthen the cooperation between the two countries and increase the trade growth faster.

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## oproh

Military cooperation is always the best!


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## terranMarine

Japan buys most to everything of its military stuff from America, so do Indians think Japan make inferior technology? 
If China buys S400, our missile tech has to be inferior

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## Beidou2020

This is important for Russia because Russian companies are banned from raising funding from western capital markets. Companies usually raise money by issuing bonds. 

Russian companies need alternatives capital markets and Chinese onshore bond market is the 3rd largest bond market in the world.

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## Beidou2020

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Using Indian logic that China buying weapons equals inferior domestic products what exactly does that entail for everything India imports including 5.56 bullets.



99% of Indians on this forum are trolls. 

Even Indians with 'think tank' status are trolls.

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## Kyle Sun

be nice ! guys.

just enjoy this good news .

do not derail this thread please

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## Sanchez

China should perhaps develop ballistic missile defence system together with Russia!
Btw, an unconfirmed news in the Chinese miliatry forum says that T-key has approached Chinese gov on the Dec 15th and asked to buy 2 batterries of HQ-9 for immediate delivery. You could guess what China's reponse would be.

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## dy1022

Sanchez said:


> China should perhaps develop ballistic missile defence system together with Russia!
> Btw, an unconfirmed news in the Chinese miliatry forum says that T-key has approached Chinese gov on the Dec 15th and asked to buy 2 batterries of HQ-9 for immediate delivery. You could guess what China's reponse would be.





not asked but begged, shameless Turkey !

 (China's answer to Turkey)

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## Beast

dy1022 said:


> not asked but begged, shameless Turkey !
> 
> (China's answer to Turkey)


China shall support Russia and stopped selling those HQ-9 to Turkey.

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## LowPost

In the wake of the Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi disaster in 2011 many countries decided to reduce, freeze or even drop peaceful atom projects altogether. The Russian Federation and China, however, have no such intentions and continue developing their nuclear power sectors domestically and participating in projects in other countries. From time to time, this results in either cooperation or competition.
After the Fukushima accident, the PRC government rushed to announce that the country’s nuclear power sector will continue to grow following the comprehensive security checks at all nuclear power plants. Dozens of billions of dollars were poured into strengthening the security of the nuclear power plants under construction and those already in operation. China could not say no to the nuclear power, since the nation’s power demand has been steadily increasing, and the traditional coal-powered generation will soon fail to match it. Besides, the PRC is intending to reduce the number of its coal power stations due to the harm they cause to the environment.

At the moment, China has a world lead in expanding nuclear capacity. In 2015, PRC’s nuclear reactors generated 42 mln kWt, and this indicator is expected to double by 2020. A desire to make these plans a reality makes China seek help from Russia.

So, the construction of Tianwan Nuclear Power Plant in the Chinese Jiangsu province on the Yellow sea coast is still in progress. This power station is considered the largest site of Russia-China economic cooperation. The construction commenced in 1999 with two first units put in commercial operation in 2007. Their completion cost $3 billion. The construction project involved more than 150 Russian organisations and companies headed by JSC Atomstroyexport.

It will also be noteworthy to mention the institute Atomenergoproekt, Experimental Design Bureau “Gidropress”, and the Russian Research Centre “Kurchatov Institute”. The construction of the second stage of the Tianwan NPS commenced in 2012 after the complete units and the project itself had undergone multiple compliance inspections in the aftermath of the Fukushima accident. The plan is to build eight units in total. The reactors of Tianwan NPS are the enhanced version of VVER-1000 (water-water energetic reactor with nominal electric power of 1000MW). From economic point of view, they are considerably efficient, but their main advantage is that their reinforced emergency protection puts them among the safest reactors in the world allowing them to withstand earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters.

Needless to say, there is more to Russia-China nuclear cooperation than Tianwan NPS. Russian specialists took part in the development of PRC’s uranium enrichment centres, construction of an experimental reactor in the vicinity of Beijing as well as other projects.

Back in 2013 Russia’s Rosatom received a proposal from the PRC to participate in the joint construction and operation of floating NPSs; moreover, China was willing to take care of a large part of the project finances.

Undoubtedly, Russia-China cooperation in the nuclear power sector has benefitted the both parties and will continue to do so and develop further. Yet, in the years passed since its initiation, China has developed its own nuclear technologies to such an extent that it is ready to export them and challenge Russia’s position on the world market. For instance, in March 2015, Rosatom lost a bid for construction of six NPSs in the SAR to Chinese companies. The tender priced at $93 billion was contested by companies from the USA, France and South Korea.

The main reason why the China National Nuclear Corporation gained the upper hand on such strong competitors is that China let the scientists from the SAR see the research being done there. Willingness of the Chinese company to make significant investments in the SAR economy also took its toll.

In June 2015, China’s Prime Minister Li Keqiang visited one of the major Chinese nuclear power design companies, China Nuclear Power Engineering Co Ltd., in order to witness the testing of the China-made reactor «Hualong One» («Dragon»). In his speech he noted: ‘Today China is considered the world’s number one in high-speed railway development, and now it is time to be the first in nuclear technologies’.

China’s zone of interests, besides the SAR, encompassed the Middle East countries, Argentina and even the Great Britain. Sure enough, South-East Asia has not been deprived of attention either.

The pace of the Chinese expansion is high and the Russian nuclear experts need to put a lot of effort in order to keep pace with competitors for the market segments. Openly competing with China for the Middle East, Russia is simultaneously searching for importers of its technologies in ASEAN states where Chinese influence is strong.

In this respect it is worth mentioning the International Energy Week that took place on October 30, 2015 in Singapore where it has been held annually since 2008. According to the opinion of a Rosatom representative that participated in the event, ASEAN can become one of the main producers of nuclear energy in the world and that will help them meet their own power needs without harming the environment and will noticeably boost the economy. ‘The nuclear sector creates new jobs, supports machine industry and construction, promotes scientific and technical expertise as well as education,” he said. However, before embarking on nuclear projects, ASEAN countries should sort out financial issues. They will need to create a special infrastructure and train specialists. Rosatom already supports its partners in Vietnam in the construction of the Ninh Thuan nuclear power station. And thus, similar type of support can be offered to other ASEAN countries that would wish to develop their own nuclear sector.

It is also important to establish public relationships with the ASEAN countries, which tend to treat nuclear power with scepticism, especially after the Fukushima disaster. In Vietnam, for instance, Rosatom created an information centre to promote awareness of the nuclear technologies. For example, there you can find information about the new Russian reactors, type VVER, that can withstand external impacts including 7-8 magnitude earthquakes. (As was mentioned above, these very reactors will be put in operation at the Vietnam’s Ninh Thuan NPS). Let us remind you that EAEU countries signed an agreement with Vietnam on free trade zone in May 2015. Russia considers this as the first step toward a deeper integration with the whole Asia-Pacific region. It also applies to the nuclear power cooperation. In addition to the Vietnamese plant, Rosatom participates in building of experimental reactor in Indonesia. Mianmar and Thailand expressed their interest in seeking Russia’s participation in developing the nuclear power share in their energy sectors. Yet, these are not all of the ASEAN countries, and Russia has to hurry to get on board of the remaining nuclear power markets before China, its partner and rival, does.

_*Dmitry Bokarev, political observer, exclusively for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”.
First appeared: Russia and China in the Nuclear Energy Sector: Cooperation or Competition? | New Eastern Outlook*_

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## Shotgunner51

Arryn said:


> For instance, in March 2015, Rosatom lost a bid for construction of *six NPSs* in the SAR to Chinese companies. The tender priced at $93 billion was contested by companies from the USA, France and South Korea.



It's a gigantic deal! Contestants include China Guangdong Nuclear Power Holding Corp, Russian state nuclear corporation Rosatom, Toshiba's Westinghouse Electric Corp unit, Korea Electric Power Corp, and France's Areva/EDF.

That's probably why Xi was meeting with Zuma of South Africa so frequently.



Arryn said:


> China’s zone of interests, besides the SAR, encompassed the Middle East countries, Argentina and even the Great Britain. Sure enough, South-East Asia has not been deprived of attention either.



The market is huge, nuclear energy is fast becoming a key exports business.

China (CGN, CNNC) and Russia (Rosatom) should pool efforts to compete with rival Toshiba-Westinghouse. There are a lot of areas for cooperation from reactor industry, plant operation, uranium industry to waste management.

Let's not forget Kazakhstan, the world's top producer of uranium, is a SCO founding member, strategic partner for Russia-China alliance.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Shotgunner51 said:


> China (CGN, CNNC) and Russia (Rosatom) should pool efforts to compete with rival Toshiba-Westinghouse. There are a lot of areas for cooperation from reactor industry, plant operation, uranium industry to waste management.




Agreed.

More cooperation with Russia is always welcome.

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## Martian2

On AsiaWind, a member read the Russian-wrote article and noted the nominal per-capita GDP difference between Russia and China.


> But the Asian behemoth is nonetheless playing catch-up: per capita GDP in Russia stands at $12,736, while in China it is at $7,594. So, can we say that one country’s model has really been better than the other’s?



The GDP per capita comparison is from 2014.

This year, the Russian Ruble has depreciated from 35 to 70 Rubles per US Dollar.

Thus, the Russian nominal per-capita GDP is one-half of last year's.

The Russian nominal per-capita GDP is closer to $6,000 for the year 2015.

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## Chinese-Dragon

China's model is designed for China's specific circumstances and for our current stage of development.

It's right for China, doesn't mean it is right for other countries.

We've seen how successful it has been when "Western democracy" has been transplanted into developing countries like Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan, etc.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> China's model is designed for China's specific circumstances and for our current stage of development.
> 
> It's right for China, doesn't mean it is right for other countries.
> 
> We've seen how successful it has been when "Western democracy" has been transplanted into developing countries like Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan, etc.



Exactly. Imposing models on others has always ended up in disaster one way or another. In the final analysis, I wish the Russian people the best with their ongoing fierce fight for national sovereignty and dignity, an occurrence that inspires progressive-minded people. 

Hopefully, Russian economy will return to positive territory from next year onward as the Syrian-situation appears to be calming down across the Russia's lines. Then Mr. Putin can look more deeply at the Ukrainian situation.

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## TaiShang

dy1022 said:


> not asked but begged, shameless Turkey !
> 
> (China's answer to Turkey)



That was definitely a right decision not to sell.

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## TaiShang

China and Russia should cooperate on nuclear tech. The world market is big enough for both to have their fair share. Russia, in fact, is not sitting its hands tied behind, either (From last month):


*Russia to Build 4,800-MW Nuclear Power Plant in Egypt*
11/20/2015






Russia signed a cooperation agreement to build and operate a four-unit, 1,200-MW-each nuclear power plant in Egypt.

The memorandum of understanding between the Russian Federal Service for Environmental, Technological and Nuclear Supervision and the Egyptian regulatory body for nuclear and radiological safety was signed to further develop the nuclear infrastructure.

The two countries signed an agreement on the development of the project that determined the specifications of the plant and key areas of operation in February.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia sign over 30 deals during Medvedev visit*
​

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (R) and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev meet the press after the 20th China-Russia Prime Ministers' Regular Meeting in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Xinhua]


China and Russia signed more than 30 cooperation documents* in energy, investment, finance, high technology and other areas* during the 20th China-Russia Prime Ministers' Regular Meeting on Thursday.

*Energy giants Sinopec and Rosneft signed an MOU on oil and gas projects in eastern Siberia while CNPC and Gazprom inked an agreement on the design and construction of the cross-border section of China-Russia east-route natural gas pipeline.*

*China Development Bank and Russia's state corporation Vnesheconombank (VEB) also signed an agreement on a 10 billion yuan (1.56 billion U.S. dollars) loan.*

"The slew of deals signed between China and Russia is a *testimony of a higher level of our relationship*, and we are determined to ensure their implementation," Chinese Premier Li Keqiang said when meeting the press along with his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev.

With the sluggish global economic recovery, lower commodity prices and downward pressure for economies, China and Russia have faced common challenges for growth, Li said.

"But China and Russia have faced downward pressure on the economy head on," he said, citing *increased Chinese commodity imports from Russia and rising bilateral cooperation in energy, equipment, high technology and e-commerce.*

Both premiers called on the two countries to find new growth engines.

China proposed joint efforts to set industrial capacity and equipment manufacturing as new areas to power the economy, urging implementation of key cooperation projects and more cooperation in areas including energy, finance, aviation, agriculture and military technology.

*Li also proposed carrying out cooperation in oil exploration, development and refineries, and aligning China's development strategies of innovation, mass entrepreneurship and "Made in China 2025" plan with Russia's Development Strategy by 2020.*

China is willing to work with Russia to join China's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative with the Russian development strategy as well as the Russia-initiated Eurasian Economic Union, Li said.

Russia and China have made breakthroughs in agricultural cooperation, Medvedev said, praising cooperation documents signed on quarantine inspection requirements on exporting Russian wheat, corn, rice and soybean to China.

Russia hopes to work with China to outline future cooperation and explore new ways and areas for cooperation, Medvedev said, suggesting both sides further practical cooperation in trade and investment, mining resources, oil and gas, nuclear, aerospace, agriculture, finance and military technology.
*
China and Russia agreed to prepare for a successful China-Russia Media Exchange Year in 2016 and 2017. Li and Medvedev called on the media to contribute to the understanding and friendship of the people in the two countries. *(@Beidou2020 , this could be an opportunity for the Chinese international media to learn from the likes of RT, Sputnik and Russian-Insider.)*

In a joint communique released after the meeting, the two countries *pledged to enhance coordination in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and jointly fight terrorism.*

They reaffirmed support in political settlement of the Syria issue and the UN's key role. They vowed to maintain peace and stability in the Korean Peninsula and play constructive roles in a comprehensive, long-lasting and proper settlement of Iran's nuclear issue, said the communique.

Prior to the meeting, Li held a red-carpet ceremony to welcome Medvedev at the Great Hall of the People.

​

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (R) and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev co-chair the 20th China-Russia Prime Ministers' Regular Meeting in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Xinhua]




Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev co-chair the 20th China-Russia Prime Ministers' Regular Meeting in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Xinhua]

***

Looks like China-Russia partnership is really an all-around, multi-leveled and multi-lateral one, comprising areas from economic development to security and global-geopolitical cooperation.

Most importantly, China and Russia do indeed look eye to eye in terms of their conceptualization of international governance. 

Good news for the world. 

@Chinese-Dragon , @vostok

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## FairAndUnbiased

The problem with Russia is that they had a system that somewhat worked, and then broke it.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

Always check yourself before you wreck yourself.

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## Beidou2020

I'm looking forward to that media exchange initiative.

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## TaiShang

FairAndUnbiased said:


> The problem with Russia is that they had a system that somewhat worked, and then broke it.
> 
> Don't fix what isn't broken.
> 
> Always check yourself before you wreck yourself.



Most of my Russian classmates hated perestroika and glasnost. But they say the system began to somewhat deteriorate before Gorbachev. Of course, his decision to entirely dismantle the system was wrong; he could have simply adjusted to the new requirements of the time. After all, this was what dialectical materialism would suggest.

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## Beast

TaiShang said:


> Most of my Russian classmates hated perestroika and glasnost. But they say the system began to somewhat deteriorate before Gorbachev. Of course, his decision to entirely dismantle the system was wrong; he could have simply adjusted to the new requirements of the time. After all, this was what dialectical materialism would suggest.


Yes, Russian economy was quite bad in the early 80s. They do not have a powerful economy to support such an expensive military expenditure. Too much resources were spend on military that neglected civilian infrastructure and progress. For example, Why would soviet need 25000 nuke warhead? It is enough to destroy 4 times the land space in world. Those nuke are expensive to maintain and keep up. Having 4000 nuke warhead will be enough of a deterrent to make your foe think twice about invading USSR.

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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> Yes, Russian economy was quite bad in the early 80s. They do not have a powerful economy to support such an expensive military expenditure. Too much resources were spend on military that neglected civilian infrastructure and progress. For example, Why would soviet need 25000 nuke warhead? It is enough to destroy 4 times the land space in world. Those nuke are expensive to maintain and keep up. Having 4000 nuke warhead will be enough of a deterrent to make your foe think twice about invading USSR.



I guess just as China has learned from the Soviet experience, Russia seems to have learned from it. That's probably the reason why they are now able to manage a multi-front struggle with the West.

Of course, better relations with China is an important factor. Russia has a huge economic hinterland to rely on when it comes to the worst, thanks to China.

China-Russia compatibility and high-level partnership is creates lots of public goods for both nations and this must be further promoted/elevated.

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## TaiShang

*Li, Medvedev Attend China-Russia Youth, Media Exchange Ceremony*
2015-12-18 12:23:00 Xinhua Web Editor: Huang Yue






Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (R) and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev attend the closing ceremony of China-Russia Youth Year & opening ceremony of China-Russia Media Exchange Year in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Photo: Xinhua/Wang Ye]





Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev attend the closing ceremony of China-Russia Youth Year & opening ceremony of China-Russia Media Exchange Year in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Photo: Xinhua/Zhang Duo]





Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev attend the closing ceremony of China-Russia Youth Year & opening ceremony of China-Russia Media Exchange Year in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Photo: Xinhua/Zhang Duo]

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## Place Of Space

Big friend sometimes is really useful.

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## Kyle Sun

i never say any ru company in my real life
we two have huge potential to burst cooperation

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## beijingwalker



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## beijingwalker

Boom and bust along Chinese-Russian border | Journal Reporters

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## oproh

I already watched both videos, they are interesting. I think Russia's economy will grow less than 1% next year, the return to positive growth is a welcome news but Putin still needs to work double time.

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## oproh

Nice, hopefully more news like this in the future.

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## JSCh

Russia seeks to strengthen energy alliance with China – Asia Times
By Sergei Blagov _on_ December 18, 2015 _in_ Asia Times News & Features, China

MOSCOW– The Kremlin intensified efforts to re-orient its energy strategy towards East Asia, as Russia’s plans of energy trade with Europe have been adversely affected by the Ukrainian crisis, as well as the latest conflict with Turkey.

Natural gas and crude oil export to China have long been a key element of Russia’s East Asian energy strategy. This week, Russia moved to strengthen the energy alliance with China by concluding a series of new agreements.

On December 17, the Russian gas monopoly Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) signed an agreement on the cross-border section of the Power of Siberia gas pipeline, including the sub-water link across the Amur River. The deal involves the so called “Eastern” gas pipeline route.

Gazprom and CNPC also agreed to continue negotiating the “Western” gas supply route in January 2016, including plans to raise its capacity up to 60 billion cubic meters (bcm)/year.

Gazprom and CNPC agreed to cooperate on gas-powered electricity generation in Eastern and North-Eastern China. By pushing this agreement, Gazprom apparently seeks to ensure a long-term market for its gas in China.

CNPC clinched a tentative deal with Gazprom’s oil subsidiary, Gazpromneft, that envisages possible joint oil projects in Russia, China and third countries.

Energy giants Rosneft and China Petroleum and Chemical Corporation (Sinopec) signed an MOU on possible joint oil and gas projects in Siberia.

In all, both sides signed more than 30 energy, finance and technology cooperation agreements during Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to China this week.

Also on December 17, Russia’s largest gas processing and petrochemicals company SIBUR and Sinopec finalized Sinopec’s acquisition of a 10% interest in SIBUR. Sinopec will have the right to nominate a representative for SIBUR’s board as a strategic investor, SIBUR said.

This week’s bilateral gas deals followed key agreements concluded earlier this year and last year. On May 8, 2015, Gazprom and CNPC signed a deal on gas supplies to China via the so called Western route. Gazprom agreed to supply China with 30 bcm of gas annually for 30 years. In May 2014, both sides agreed a $400-billion deal for Russia to supply China with 38 bcm/year from 2018 for 30 years via the Eastern route.

Moscow’s plans to develop the energy alliance with China took quite long to materialize. Back in 2006, Moscow first pledged to export Russian gas to China. But Russia and China struggled to agree on gas prices. Gazprom first offered to supply gas at European price levels, while CNPC insisted on lower prices.

Russia’s top officials had previously expected final agreements on gas prices to be concluded in 2009, and gas supplies to start in 2014-2015. Instead, these final agreements were signed only in 2014-2015.

In contrast with the planned gas pipelines, Russian crude oil supplies to China already became an important element of the bilateral trade. In 2014, Russian oil shipments to China reached 28.5 million tons or nearly 40% up year-on-year.

In 2011, Russia started crude oil supplies to China via the East Siberia Pacific Pipeline (ESPO). According to the agreement concluded in 2009, Russian state-run energy giants Rosneft and Transneft pledged to supply 15 million tons of oil to China for 20 years in exchange for Chinese loans totaling $25 billion.

Russia’s latest efforts to strengthen energy partnership with China happened to coincide with a steep decline in international energy prices that came as a blow to the Russian state coffers. Therefore, Moscow is becoming increasingly interested in China’s energy market, part of a huge and still growing economy.

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## TaiShang

*Sinopec acquires 10% share of Russia's Sibur*
December 17, 2015

Sinopec, China's largest oil refiner, has completed a deal to acquire 10 percent share of Russia's largest gas processing and petrochemicals company Sibur, they announced Thursday.





Sinopec, China's largest oil refiner. [File photo/Xinhua]

*The 10 percent minority investment will lead to better sharing of joint expertise and resources, strengthen not only the leading market position of both companies, but also the strategic cooperation between China and Russia, said a statement on Sinopec's website.*

Sinopec will have the right to nominate a representative for Sibur's board of directors as a strategic investor, it added.

"Sibur's vertically-integrated upstream and petrochemical business model is highly complementary with Sinopec's businesses. This transaction is in line with our objective to strategically expand our petrochemical business overseas, and help diversify and secure Sinopec's long-term sourcing of petrochemical products," Wang Yupu, chairman of Sinopec, was quoted in the statement.

The completion of the deal came after Sibur and Sinopec signed a strategic partnership agreement in September 2015.

The two companies will discuss the possibility of widening the scope of collaboration. Sinopec is expected to participate in the Amur Gas Chemical Complex construction project as a strategic partner with Sibur, Sinopec said.

*****
*China's Silk Road Fund to buy into Russian LNG project*
Xinhua, December 18, 2015

China's Silk Road Fund, a medium- to long-term investment fund, will buy 9.9 percent of a Russian liquefied natural gas (LNG) project.

The Silk Road Fund said Friday that it entered into a set of binding agreements with Russia-based natural gas producer Novatek on Thursday in the presence of Premier Li Keqiang and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev.

The Fund will buy 9.9 percent stake in Novatek's Yamal LNG project and provide a 15-year loan of around 730 million euros (about 790 million U.S. dollars) to finance the project. The deal will not ahead until an intergovernmental agreement comes into force.

Located on the Yamal Peninsula, the Yamal project is the world's largest natural gas development, liquefaction, transportation and sale project, with a designed annual output of 28 billion cubic meters.

The Silk Road Fund was set up in December 2014 to promote investment and financing cooperation between China and other countries, serving the China-proposed "Belt and Road" initiative, which encompasses the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> Most of my Russian classmates hated perestroika and glasnost. But they say the system began to somewhat deteriorate before Gorbachev. Of course, his decision to entirely dismantle the system was wrong; he could have simply adjusted to the new requirements of the time. After all, this was what dialectical materialism would suggest.


Gorbechev and Yeltsin will go down in history as what Emperess Dowager was to China.

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## Aepsilons

Sakura_Kaigun said:


> I believe the Russians have particular strengths unique to their state in particular the national dialectic of national support despite multinational economic restrictions. This makes one one refer to history ; in 1948 Russia was already falling victim to sanctions leveled against her by the west and it would be half a century before they were lifted.
> 
> Why even the Soviet Union also played the sanctions game as well such as against China, Albania, Yugoslavia and even against Finland.
> 
> So the issue is Russian adaptability is with out question ; with Chinese investments and collaboration , the Russians will more likely than not weather this.



@Sakura_Kaigun my friend ---

If the Soviet Union can survive an all-encompassing sanction leveled against her by the West for over 50 years, then surely the Russian Federation , today, can expect to resist the effects of the sanctions currently, yes? I do agree with you that tho the sanctions have a political message, its importance is based on the fact that it has reawakened a geopolitical division in Europe and the drawing of lines. While I agree with you that China's investments in Russia and current trade levels in Russia will ultimately help the Russians face recent capital flight, I believe there is only so much that China can contribute. Afterall, the Chinese are vested in developing the Silk Road Paradigm which will aim to encompass Greater China's Western territory with the rest of Central and Western Asia to the hinterland of Europe and the Near East. China has a multifactorial role in developing that region, and much capital will be required to realize that, as well as the importance of maintaining a broad-minded political rapproachment process --- meaning China will maintain a healthy distance with Russia while She engages the West and the Near Eastern states. The Chinese are not dependent on Russia, while the latter is now dependent on the former. That's my view.

Would you be as so kind to enlighten me and the rest here on your analysis of what made China successful compared to Russia's early experiment post-Soviet epoch? I know i'm asking a broad question, but please enlighten me.

Thank you kindly, Sir.

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## Borr

This article is written by someone that know his/her own trade, but not much outside his/her field. Taiwan looks good in semiconductors, but is actually only good at MARKETING a few commercialized applications of semiconductors. That's it.

China didn't industrialize over one generation. China's real industrialization started in th 50' with the Soviet Union's SYSTEMATIC transfer of a bundle of 100+ entire industries, as part of bargain in the aftermath of the Korean war.

China has many industries that simply doesn't exist in TW. The real impact of process in the article is TW is one of the early birds (and more investments from SEA Chinese ethnic groups) when China switched from the Soviet economic bloc into the Europan/American bloc.

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## FlyCheatter

Borr said:


> This article is written by someone that know his/her own trade, but not much outside his/her field. Taiwan looks good in semiconductors, but is actually only good at MARKETING a few commercialized applications of semiconductors. That's it.
> 
> China didn't industrialize over one generation. China's real industrialization started in th 50' with the Soviet Union's SYSTEMATIC transfer of a bundle of 100+ entire industries, as part of bargain in the aftermath of the Korean war.
> 
> China has many industries that simply doesn't exist in TW. The real impact of process in the article is TW is one of the early birds (and more investments from SEA Chinese ethnic groups) when China switched from the Soviet economic bloc into the Europan/American bloc.


...absolutely right, setting the Taiwan as the one superhero industrialized Chine - a "lil" (a huuuge one in reality) exxageration. Soviet Union industialized China (Liberated by destruction Kwantung army - basicaly entire Army of Japan, armed, and made communist), hundreds of thousands of chineese students were having education in SU for the above mentioned Industies transfer ... and then yep, . you put it ... 'switch'

...there's "millions" of "Institutes" of studying/modern/whatever Russia exists ... mostly doing just rubbish production and money consumption ... -- the face of "modern Russia" - corrupt and useless elites consuming resources...

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## ChineseTiger1986

FlyCheatter said:


> ...absolutely right, setting the Taiwan as the one superhero industrialized Chine - a "lil" (a huuuge one in reality) exxageration. Soviet Union industialized China (Liberated by destruction Kwantung army - basicaly entire Army of Japan, armed, and made communist), hundreds of thousands of chineese students were having education in SU for the above mentioned Industies transfer ... and then yep, . you put it ... 'switch'
> 
> ...there's "millions" of "Institutes" of studying/modern/whatever Russia exists ... mostly doing just rubbish production and money consumption ... -- the face of "modern Russia" - corrupt and useless elites consuming resources...



USSR did play the key role for China's early industrialization. However, Russia itself was de-industrialized after the collapse of the USSR.

I think if Russia could adopt China's current political/economic model, then Russia will have a chance to be re-industrialized again to become a manufacturing powerhouse.

China needs an ideological high ground to prove that her own ideology is superior to the western counterpart. And with Russia's participation and success, it will greatly bolster China's political/economic model.

Putin is making Russia more authoritarian than ever after the collapse of USSR, so it is quite clearly which side he is leaning.



Borr said:


> This article is written by someone that know his/her own trade, but not much outside his/her field. Taiwan looks good in semiconductors, but is actually only good at MARKETING a few commercialized applications of semiconductors. That's it.
> 
> China didn't industrialize over one generation. China's real industrialization started in th 50' with the Soviet Union's SYSTEMATIC transfer of a bundle of 100+ entire industries, as part of bargain in the aftermath of the Korean war.
> 
> China has many industries that simply doesn't exist in TW. The real impact of process in the article is TW is one of the early birds (and more investments from SEA Chinese ethnic groups) when China switched from the Soviet economic bloc into the Europan/American bloc.



Taiwan did help China to reduce the gap with the West on some degree, but China's industrial foundation was laid down in the early 1950s with the help of the USSR.

China was capable to build the H-bomb and ICBM back in the 1960s, and a lot of so-called 'modern developed countries' aren't capable to achieve this feat yet.

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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> While I agree with you that China's investments in Russia and current trade levels in Russia will ultimately help the Russians face recent capital flight, I believe there is only so much that China can contribute.



If I may infer, my friend, I guess, there is still a slew of areas China and Russia can further cooperate. Although it is true that both nations (not just China) is not entirely dependent on the other, there is a huge compatibility advantage between the two nations. Russia can provide a much larger market for China than the current bilateral trade level of 90$ billion. 

There are areas of high tech and heavy industry (such as space, military, bio-engineering, nuclear) that the two can further cooperate. And this is only the economic aspect. 

There is another aspect, as important as economic one, which is geopolitics. I believe this is what really brings the two together： Their threat perception is somewhat aligned. This would be a bad news for me if I were the US president, but, they must have their own calculations. 



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Afterall, the Chinese are vested in developing the Silk Road Paradigm which will aim to encompass Greater China's Western territory with the rest of Central and Western Asia to the hinterland of Europe and the Near East.



Silk Road, or the entire OBOR paradigm, is not antithetical to Russian interests. Hence the reason for the efforts to align OBOR with Russia's Eurasian Economic Union. The geographical vastness and depth of the two nation enable them to engage in multilateral diplomacy without directly harming each other's interests. If it were China vs. a smaller nation, we would be talking about a power imbalance, but in case of China and Russia, there is more balance than imbalance, I believe.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> USSR did play the key role for China's early industrialization. However, Russia itself was de-industrialized after the collapse of the USSR.
> 
> I think if Russia could adopt China's current political/economic model, then Russia will have a chance to be re-industrialized again to become a manufacturing powerhouse.



In Putin, I see the hints of China's pragmatism and decisiveness.

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## TaiShang

*Russian PM Places Wreath at Monument to People's Heroes in Beijing*
2015-12-17







Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev places a wreath at the Monument to the People's Heroes in Tian'anmen Square, in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 17, 2015. [Photo: Xinhua]

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## Martian2

Russia helped China in the 1950s. However, that has little relevance in modern times.

The Soviet Union helped the Warsaw Pact countries more.

All of the former Warsaw Pact countries became economic and technological basket cases.

Hence, I still think Taiwan is the most important factor in China's recent modernization from 1978-2015.

When people talk about China's Economic Miracle, they are not talking about 1950s China.

They are talking about today's high-tech export powerhouse. One to two million Taiwanese live in China to ensure the smooth functioning of the Chinese hi-tech export machine. 90% of the world's notebook computers are manufactured by Taiwanese companies on mainland China. There are many other examples in the LED, LCD, petrochemicals, machine tools, etc. industries.

In conclusion, Taiwan is the key behind China's Economic Miracle. Otherwise, we would have seen similar economic miracles in Eastern Europe if Russian assistance was the critical factor.

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## TaiShang

Martian2 said:


> Russia helped China in the 1950s. However, that has little relevance in modern times.
> 
> The Soviet Union helped the Warsaw Pact countries more.
> 
> All of the former Warsaw Pact countries became economic and technological basket cases.
> 
> Hence, I still think Taiwan is the most important factor in China's recent modernization from 1978-2015.
> 
> When people talk about China's Economic Miracle, they are not talking about 1950s China.
> 
> They are talking about today's high-tech export powerhouse. One to two million Taiwanese live in China to ensure the smooth functioning of the Chinese hi-tech export machine. 90% of the world's notebook computers are manufactured by Taiwanese companies on mainland China. There are many other examples in the LED, LCD, petrochemicals, machine tools, etc. industries.
> 
> In conclusion, Taiwan is the key behind China's Economic Miracle. Otherwise, we would have seen similar economic miracles in Eastern Europe if Russian assistance was the critical factor.



I guess Taiwan has been instrumental in terms of high-tech. Russia (Soviet Union) was perhaps instrumental in terms of heavy industries.

China's efficient and pragmatist policies ensured that the required know-how would be gained, and Taiwan, as Russia was before, has been there especially ever since the large exodus of Taiwanese scientists/entrepreneurs from the US in the 90s.

In that regard, the contributions of both Russia and now Taiwan cannot be denied. They just happened/are happening in differing historical contexts.

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## Martian2

TaiShang said:


> I guess Taiwan has been instrumental in terms of high-tech. Russia (Soviet Union) was perhaps instrumental in terms of heavy industries.
> 
> China's efficient and pragmatist policies ensured that the required know-how would be gained, and Taiwan, as Russia was before, has been there especially ever since the large exodus of Taiwanese scientists/entrepreneurs from the US.
> 
> In that regard, the contributions of both Russia and now Taiwan cannot be denied. They just happened/are happening in differing historical contexts.


Except for the last couple of years, China averaged 10% real economic growth for 30 years.

The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Beginning in the 2000s, the Russian economy made a huge comeback on the increased price in oil.

Since China has little oil, it did not follow the Russian model.

Thus, which country was responsible for China's transformation? Once again, I suggest it was mostly Taiwan.
----------

Let's see if I can convince you with a logic-based argument.

A country grows wealthy by selling non-commodity products.

A non-commodity product requires patent protection.

Thus, the number of USPTO patents is a general indicator of the number of patented products that a country can sell on the world market with a high margin. For example, a Taiwanese five-axis CNC machine tool costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. A commodity product like corn is only worth a few dollars per bushel. It would take a warehouse of corn to equal the value of one compact Taiwanese CNC machine tool.

Over the last 38 years, Taiwan has a cumulative portfolio of 150,121 USPTO patents. Russia has 4,473. The Soviet Union had 3,902. Collectively, Russia and the Soviet Union only had 8,375 USPTO patents. Russia (and the Soviet Union) was in no position to help China manufacture and sell high-margin patented products.

Patent Counts By Country, State, and Year - All Patent Types (December 2014)

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## Shotgunner51

TaiShang said:


> Shugaev, the Rostec deputy CEO, said Russia is in negotiations with China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp and China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp on the procurement of China-developed spacecraft instruments such as electronic and satellite communications devices.




Good!

The two will also jointly develop and produce aerospace components, see link from IHS Jane's:

China and Russia Sign Aerospace Components Deal

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## TaiShang

Shotgunner51 said:


> Good!
> 
> The two will also jointly develop and produce aerospace components, see link from IHS Jane's:
> 
> China and Russia Sign Aerospace Components Deal



Very nice. If energy is one of the components of deepening China-Russia strategic partnership, military technology is another. The two countries are using their strengths wisely to reinforce the synergy and compatibility/cooperation.

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## Kyle Sun

Sanchez said:


> China should perhaps develop ballistic missile defence system together with Russia!
> Btw, an unconfirmed news in the Chinese miliatry forum says that T-key has approached Chinese gov on the Dec 15th and asked to buy 2 batterries of HQ-9 for immediate delivery. You could guess what China's reponse would be.


I doubt that .
Turkey will not dare to buy HQ-9 from china when it needs the supports of NATO or USA. 

Uncle Sam will be piss off and leave it to the ru.

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## beijingwalker

*China's booming space program might put the US and Russia to shame*




Kelly Dickerson
Dec. 16, 2015, 11:55 AM






Space exploration for China didn't exactly blast off.

By the time China launched its first satellite, the US had already landed men on the moon — twice. And China didn't send a person into space until 2003, even then by relying heavily on Russian hardware.

But that has all changed. China's space program is booming.

"[T]he Chinese are ... vaulting ahead," writes astronomer Chris Impey wrote in his book "Beyond: Our Future in Space." "Their Long March rocket is original and has quickly eclipsed Russian rockets."

Today the China National Space Administration (CNSA) continues to innovate, channeling national ambition into an aggressive moon exploration program and a brand-new space station.

"Unlike one of the stereotypes that they're just sort of copying our technology, they're actually innovating," Impey recently told NPR's Fresh Air host Terry Gross. "They have very young engineers in their space program — very keen, very well trained, very ambitious."

Keep scrolling to see what China's impressive space agency has been up to lately.

*The Chinese National Space Administration is catching up to the world thanks largely to a fleet of "Long March" rockets.*
*



*


*The rockets have powerful engines and thrusters and can carry up to 13 tons into orbit around the Earth.






This means a Long March is capable of carrying satellites, robotic rovers, and even humans into space.






China is continuing to build more and more advanced models of Long March rockets.






For example, it launched the powerful 3C in 2014. The rocket carried an experimental spacecraft that China wants to use for a future lunar mission.






China also builds its own spacecraft, called the Shenzhou. The first mission — Shenzhou-1 — was a test flight without any crew on board.






TO BE CONTINUED..


*

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## beijingwalker

*Today the Shenzhou ferries taikonauts (Chinese astronauts) into space.*
*



*

*Shenzhou spacecraft are loosely based on Russia's Soyuz vehicles. They both have three separate modules, but the Chinese version is larger and made with different materials.





*
*Unlike NASA, whose astronauts have to hitch rides into space from Russia, China has the rocket power to launch its own space travelers.






The spacecraft can snugly fit three people.






And as soon as China successfully built the Shenzhou, it didn't waste any time using it to send taikonauts into space.






Taikonaut Wang Yaping trains for a mission inside this spinning machine at the Beijing Aerospace City.

On June 16, 2012, taikonauts Jing Haipeng (right), Liu Wang (center) and Liu Yang (left) were sent off in style from the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in Gansu province.







TO BE CONTINUED..
*

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## NIA

Congrats!!! Keep it going.
Asians have talent.

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## beijingwalker

*They all piled inside a spacecraft atop a Long March 2-F rocket and blasted off from the launch center, beginning the Shenzhou-9 mission — China's second-most-recent crewed spaceflight.*
*



*

*Liu Yang (right) became China's first female taikonaut that day.





*
*The Shenzhou spacecraft are all designed to float about 213 miles above Earth — just a few miles below the International Space Station. Taikonauts usually only spend a few weeks at a time in orbit.






Here, a taikonaut has suited up and ventured into the vacuum of outer space to perform maintenance during the Shenzhou-7 mission.






He even carried a People's Republic of China flag for part of the dangerous task.







All the spacecraft come with a landing pod that looks similar to NASA's Orion spacecraft.
*
*



*
Taikonauts Zhang Xiaoguang (left), Nie Haisheng (center), and Wang Yaping (right) returned to Earth in 2013 in one of these capsules. They had just completed a 15-day mission orbiting Earth as part of the Shenzhou-10 mission.

*TO BE CONTINUED..*

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## Khafee

@beijingwalker Kindly post specifications of the rockets as well.

Thank You for an amazing thread!

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## beijingwalker

*But China isn't just launching taikonauts into space: It has its sights set on the moon. The space agency's Chang'e-3 probe landed there in December, 2013.*
*



*

*The mission marked the first soft landing of a probe on the moon in almost 40 years.





The probe carried CNSA's 300-pound "Jade Rabbit" rover. The rover is now out of commission, but China still has a working telescope on the moon.






*
*China also has its own space station. It's called Tiangong 1, and it launched in 2011. Here's a model of what it looks like:






The tiny space station (left) is designed to dock with one of the agency's Shenzhou spacecraft (right)






TO BE CONTINUED.

*

Chinese space exploration is 'vaulting ahead' - Tech Insider

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## C130

so what exactly has China down in the field of space technology that the U.S and Russia hasn't done and continues to do??

when will China launch ambitious programs like the Hubble Telescope and New Horizons??
New Horizons Image Gallery | NASA

it will be the private sector that will trump all countries space programs anyhow








meanwhile China chokes on it's own success

will they innovate their way out of that mess?







maybe the rich Chinese along with wealthy white westerns will build a space station and look down and laugh at us still left on Earth


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## Khafee

C130 said:


> so what exactly has China down in the field of space techonolgly that the U.S and Russia hasn't done and continues to do??
> 
> when will China launch ambitious programs like the Hubble Telescope and New Horizons??
> New Horizons Image Gallery | NASA
> 
> it will be the private sector that will trump all countries space programs anyhow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> meanwhile China chokes on it's own success
> 
> will they innovate their way out of that mess?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe the rich Chinese along with wealthy white westerns will build a space station and look down and laugh at us still left on Earth



They are moving in the right direction. To write them off would be seriously premature.

Regards

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## beijingwalker

*Don't know why, can't post anymore...*

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## C130

Khafee said:


> They are moving in the right direction. To write them off would be seriously premature.
> 
> Regards




I think it's premature to say China space program would put the U.S and Russian programs to shame.





China's ego is big as it's ambition


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## beijingwalker

C130 said:


> I think it's premature to say China space program would put the U.S and Russian programs to shame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's ego is big as it's ambition



*This is an American report

Chinese space exploration is 'vaulting ahead' - Tech Insider*

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## Khafee

beijingwalker said:


> *This is an American report*


Ignore him, please continue doing what you were doing so brilliantly.

Thank You!

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## hirobo2

C130 said:


> so what exactly has China down in the field of space technology that the U.S and Russia hasn't done and continues to do??
> 
> when will China launch *ambitious programs like the Hubble Telescope* and New Horizons??



Lol, are you serious? What's the point of wasting tax dollars looking at remote regions of outer space where things have been dead for millions of years (by the time the light rays reach Earth, those objects are no longer around)? Hubble serves no practical purpose whatsoever!

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## C130

hirobo2 said:


> Lol, are you serious? What's the point of wasting tax dollars looking at remote regions of outer space where things have been dead for millions of years (by the time the light rays reach each, those objects are no longer around)?



I should be the one asking if you are serious

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## hirobo2

C130 said:


> I think it's premature to say *China space program would put the U.S and Russian programs to shame.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's ego is big as it's ambition



They already did. The innovative rocket design says Americans can't engineer practical designs for beans!

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## C130

hirobo2 said:


> They already did. The innovative rocket design says Americans can't engineer practical designs for beans!


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## hirobo2

C130 said:


>



Typical fellow American and our sheer pride/arrogance. But that's not how the world sees us buddy. Most hate us for starting meaningless wars. They're rooting on China to overtake us in the future!

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## beijingwalker

*This is an American report, and I don't know why that I tried several times but just can't post the last part of this article here, here is the link for the whole article*
*
Chinese space exploration is 'vaulting ahead' - Tech Insider*

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## C130

hirobo2 said:


> Typical fellow American and our sheer pride/arrogance. But that's not how the world sees us buddy. Most hate us for starting meaningless wars. They're rooting on China to overtake us in the future!



sure fellow burger 



beijingwalker said:


> *This is an American report, and I don't know why that I tried several times but just can't post the last part of this article here, here is the link for the whole article
> 
> Chinese space exploration is 'vaulting ahead' - Tech Insider*




space exploration has been stale since the late 70's. competition is welcomed, but it's the private sector that interests me.


if China or Russia go to the moon and colonize it all the better 


meanwhile Chinese will have to live in bubbles if pollution isn't curtailed

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## ArsalanKhan21

China is still at least 50 years behind USA in space technology but catching up quickly. China is now doing what US did in early 1960s. US astronauts landed on Moon on 20 July 1969 no other nation has matched that yet. The Space race in the 1960s was not about science but the superiority of ideologies. Now Space investment has to be justified.

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## General Observer

Really? Look at who Spacex's current sole customer is. Without it, there is no funding for private spaceflight programs.

Also, have you seen Elon Musk's interviews? Your ego must be as big as his if you ignore how much hypocrisy is filled in your comment!



C130 said:


> so what exactly has China down in the field of space technology that the U.S and Russia hasn't done and continues to do??
> 
> when will China launch ambitious programs like the Hubble Telescope and New Horizons??
> New Horizons Image Gallery | NASA
> 
> it will be the private sector that will trump all countries space programs anyhow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> meanwhile China chokes on it's own success
> 
> will they innovate their way out of that mess?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe the rich Chinese along with wealthy white westerns will build a space station and look down and laugh at us still left on Earth

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## Nan Yang

I think what making US loss sleep is not that China is ahead in space (And China is not) but that China appears to have a vision with action and funds and following a steady and consistent path.

US on the otherhand, due to poor leadership have had a inconsistent and vision-less path. They developed the Saturn and landed on the moon, then abandoned all of that. Then they developed the faulty space shuttle and now abandoned it again going back to the old design which they have lost.
Not to mentioned the international space station.

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## General Observer

C130 said:


> sure fellow burger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> space exploration has been stale since the late 70's. competition is welcomed, but it's the private sector that interests me.
> 
> 
> if China or Russia go to the moon and colonize it all the better
> 
> 
> meanwhile Chinese will have to live in bubbles if pollution isn't curtailed



Newspace is for dreamers. I've been involved with the Newspace community since 2011, and while the minds, ideas and passion behind this industry is phenomenal, the industry isn't so 'lucrative' and you know it yourself, if there weren't government support and backing, there would be no NewSpace. Currently, all grants are given to them by NASA or congress as it is.

Also, to badge pollution with China is just as bad as what your buddies are saying about Poverty in India. Ignorant, you really think pollution and poverty is as rampant as you put it? Besides, america ain't doing anything about pollution in reality; it's the Yanks doing all the talking and all the developing countries actually implementing.

Here's LA:

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## Beast

CZ-5 rocket debut is important to prove China as a space power. Without CZ-5, China can't called herself space power.



ArsalanKhan21 said:


> China is still at least 50 years behind USA in space technology but catching up quickly. China is now doing what US did in early 1960s. US astronauts landed on Moon on 20 July 1969 no other nation has matched that yet. The Space race in the 1960s was not about science but the superiority of ideologies. Now Space investment has to be justified.


You are sprouting nonsense. Has 50 years ago has GPS system? China has build a rival beidou system to match US. That wouldn't put China 50 years behind US.

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## ArsalanKhan21

Beast said:


> You are sprouting nonsense. Has 50 years ago has GPS system? China has build a rival beidou system to match US. That wouldn't put China 50 years behind US.



What I am saying that there are huge gaps in China's Space technology. Which means they are close behind US in some areas and decades behind in other areas. One example is that China can build Fifth generation fighters but lacks local engine technology to power it.

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## thesolar65

Super Falcon said:


> Where is world power india or it hiding like pussy cat



Why bothered about India? India is doing its bit and gets recognised. What about you? You even don't show your flag? Are You ashamed of your country's flag? Has your country send a stone to space? Why bring India in to China and US debate? You are blinded by so much hate and jealousy that India comes in your dreams every time you sleep?

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## beijingwalker

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> What I am saying that there are huge gaps in China's Space technology. Which means they are close behind US in some areas and decades behind in other areas. One example is that China can build Fifth generation fighters but lacks local engine technology to power it.



I really doubt that US can do what they used to be able to do, US might be 50 years behind where they used to be today. The whole industry is losing sufficient fund. Money talks in the end.

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## AMCA

Super Falcon said:


> Where is world power india or it hiding like pussy cat



Why do you think we should hide? If at all it is anyone who needs to hide, it is Mr. obvious SUPARCO that hasn't yet managed to launch even a bee into space from its soil.


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## C130

General Observer said:


> Really? Look at who Spacex's current sole customer is. Without it, there is no funding for private spaceflight programs.
> 
> Also, have you seen Elon Musk's interviews? Your ego must be as big as his if you ignore how much hypocrisy is filled in your comment!



sole customer  are you sure about that bud.
List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S federal funding/purchase of use Falcon 9 isn't a problem. you need a little push to get things going as well

meanwhile the U.S taxpayer saves massively using Falcon 9 over ULA which cost 300% more 


now that Falcon 9 booster can successfully land intact to be re-used the price per lauch is going to be even cheaper 

Is China going to copy this  of course they will 



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


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## anon45

Of all the times to post an article claiming china's space program superiority to the US, you had to do it on the day after this.







With the Falcon Heavy currently expected to launch Mid 2016, capable of delivering *53 METRIC TONS* of payload into orbit...

First Falcon Heavy Launch Scheduled for Spring - SpaceNews.com

Bad timing man, bad timing.

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## beijingwalker

I think the article talks about the booming Chinese space industry and its huge potential in the future, not who is ahead of who right now.

*2015 in spaceflight*

*By country
Country* *Launches* *Successes/* *Failures/* *Partial failures*



Europe 9 9 0 0



India 5 5 0 0



Iran 1 1 0 0



Japan 4 4 0 0



People's Republic of China *18 18 0 0 *



Russia 27 24 1 2 Includes Sea Launch and Soyuz from Kourou (3)



United States 20 18 2 0
*

China 18 launches with successful rate 100%, pretty impressive.*

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## C130

anon45 said:


> Of all the times to post an article claiming china's space program superiority to the US, you had to do it on the day after this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the Falcon Heavy currently expected to launch Mid 2016, capable of delivering *53 METRIC TONS* of payload into orbit...
> 
> First Falcon Heavy Launch Scheduled for Spring - SpaceNews.com
> 
> Bad timing man, bad timing.




I think he made this thread because of what SpaceX did.

the timing is way to suspicious

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## General Observer

C130 said:


> sole customer  are you sure about that bud.
> List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> U.S federal funding/purchase of use Falcon 9 isn't a problem. you need a little push to get things going as well
> 
> meanwhile the U.S taxpayer saves massively using Falcon 9 over ULA which cost 300% more
> 
> 
> now that Falcon 9 booster can successfully land intact to be re-used the price per lauch is going to be even cheaper
> 
> Is China going to copy this  of course they will



What I mean is the sole primary customer-Thanks for your sarcasm, even though you probably know what I meant. The whole Falcon 9 design was created for the CCDev project; so was the ATK Liberty project, the ULA Atlas V+Boeing CST100, and the Sierra Nevada DreamChaser. That's the life and bread of Spacex. I presumed there were secondary customers, but that's like carrying CubeSat's on your mission because you've got room, and it's an easy quick buck.

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## C130

General Observer said:


> What I mean is the sole primary customer. The whole Falcon 9 design was created for the CCDev project. That's the life and bread of Spacex. I presumed there were secondary customers, but that's like carrying CubeSat's on your mission because you've got room, and it's an easy quick buck.




sole primary customer for right now  which is why I said the government is basically kickstarting SpaceX off

you are talking about COTS

Commercial Orbital Transportation Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


now who do you think is going to commercialize civilan space travel??? government run space agencies or the private sector like SpaceX  

which is going to make more money for the company than putting satellites in space


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## war&peace

Congratulations China, this is amazing progress especially bringing Asia at par with USA in space race. Russia is sometimes labelled as part of Europe (by Europeans) despite all this launching facilities are located well inside Asia.

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## General Observer

C130 said:


> sole primary customer for right now  which is why I said the government is basically kickstarting SpaceX off
> 
> you are talking about COTS
> 
> Commercial Orbital Transportation Services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> now who do you think is going to commerical civilan space travel??? government run space agencies or the private sector like SpaceX  which is going to make more money than putting satellites in space



No, I mean CCDev. At least it was called that when I was still involved with NewSpace 2011-2012.

NASA - CCDev Information


To be quite frank, putting a space capsule in orbit is still deemed as putting a satellite in space; an artificial one. Who's going fuel Spacex' demand for their Mars mission? The few billionaires in america paying for a few grand each flight?

Let the big dogs handle exo-LEO spaceflight-Government i.e. NASA SLS system.

And let the commercial guys take on Near-earth orbit.

By the way, why do you americans always jump at the sight of an article claiming anything about challenging us supremacy? This time, you didn't read right; the topic is might put... to shame, not disposed america of leadership in spaceflight... Looking forward to your sarcastic remarks.

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## C130

General Observer said:


> No, I mean CCDev. At least it was called that when I was still involved with NewSpace 2011-2012.
> 
> NASA - CCDev Information
> 
> 
> To be quite frank, putting a space capsule in orbit is still deemed as putting a satellite in space; an artificial one. Who's going fuel Spacex' demand for their Mars mission? The few billionaires in america paying for a few grand each flight?
> 
> Let the big dogs handle exo-LEO spaceflight-Government i.e. NASA SLS system.
> 
> And let the commercial guys take on Near-earth orbit.
> 
> By the way, why do you americans always jump at the sight of an article claiming anything about challenging us supremacy? This time, you didn't read right; the topic is might put... to shame, not disposed america of leadership in spaceflight... Looking forward to your sarcastic remarks.





lol you actually believe NASA SLS will work out 


if China takes over the leadership of space travel that's fine and dandy


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## General Observer

C130 said:


> lol you actually believe NASA SLS will work out



The SLS has as much chance as any commercial crew proposal. That is, what mood congress is in the day the new administration steps in. My friends and I know this part far too well.



C130 said:


> if China takes over the leadership of space travel that's fine and dandy



Leadership of space travel? as in what, policies or technological development? Policies are independent of each nation. Technological advantages are only temporary, it's only a matter of time before your competitors catch up. Why does it matter who's leading then?

For policy, I believe in a united space front. Space is the last thing to bring mankind together.

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## C130

General Observer said:


> The SLS has as much chance as any commercial crew proposal. That is, what mood congress is in the day the new administration steps in. My friends and I know this part far too well.
> 
> 
> 
> Leadership of space travel? as in what, policies or technological development? Policies are independent of each nation. Technological advantages are only temporary, it's only a matter of time before your competitors catch up. Why does it matter who's leading then?
> 
> For policy, I believe in a united space front. Space is the last thing to bring mankind together.




competition is what will drive space exploration.

SLS will fail because it's government ran and managed.

manned space travel has became stale. we havenen't traveled from low earth orbit since 1973 I believe.


space shuttle was a waste of resources along with ISS  though both are technological wonders


if China can get us beyond low earth space travel I will become a China fan boy


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## General Observer

C130 said:


> competition is what will drive space exploration.
> 
> SLS will fail because it's government ran and managed.
> 
> manned space travel has became stale. we havenen't traveled from low earth orbit since 1973 I believe.
> 
> 
> space shuttle was a waste of resources along with ISS  though both are technological wonders
> 
> 
> if China can get us beyond low earth space travel I will become a China fan boy



I agree with the competition part. Competition is also what drove the Gemini, then Apollo missions; government ran. What I'm trying to say is, don't disregard something simply because it's government ran and managed projects may I remind you.

Look at what RFP's commercial companies are working off of-NASA/USAF proposals. Which means, companies are staying competitive to fight for a government contract, something NASA has potential to also cover, but isn't, because it's working on bigger projects.

As I said, any commercial project (at this point), has as much chance of survival as the SLS, because you never know what the next administration is going to demand next. It'll stay this way until private companies venture away from government tenders and actually become self-sufficient.

Speaking of the space shuttle, what Spacex accomplished isn't much more of a feat that what the Space Shuttle accomplished, except it was able to re-use a booster. What would be a feat, is if we could finally ditch chemical propulsion, and invest in technological barrier breaking propulsion methods i.e. Nuclear, Ion propulsion (VASIMR such as), and my personal proposal, gravity modification.

I brought this up with many Newspace companies, and while representatives agree with the passion and drive part, no-one wants to invest, because they would rather be safe than sorry. This was the case with ATK, and Spacex was no different in thinking.

What I must give Spacex credit for, is their effort and drive; they stick to their milestones. I greatly admire my friends at Spacex who work 80 hour weeks, and never complain about it because it drives them. Great work mentality.

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## anon45

General Observer said:


> Let the big dogs handle exo-LEO spaceflight-Government i.e. NASA SLS system.
> 
> And let the commercial guys take on Near-earth orbit.



That is the general idea with other companies, but if SpaceX has a a different plan with their MCT all the more power to them. They have the vision and have clearly demonstrated the competency. That they are a private company should not stop NASA from utilising them, hell they are an American company.



General Observer said:


> By the way, why do you americans always jump at the sight of an article claiming anything about challenging us supremacy? This time, you didn't read right; the topic is might put... to shame, not disposed america of leadership in spaceflight... Looking forward to your sarcastic remarks.



That the article is clickbait title with no actual substance is the entire point.It is all "might", "maybe" "could"

It doesn't define how China's moon program is considered 'aggressive'. They are planning a landing around 2030? That hardly sounds like an aggressive program, by that measure the US' program for a manned landing on mars is aggressive, and most would not consider it such.

It doesn't specify any innovation in its rockets, just says the program is innovative, no specifics, and says China is developing bigger rockets. Whoopdee doo, so are we! 

It hypes up taking 13 tons to orbit ignoring that the US has launchers that take up more, the Falcon 9 takes up the same amount, and the Falcon Heavy will take up significantly more, let alone the SLS.


It hypes up China's moon rovers ignoring that the US has 2 on mars, one of which has been active for 12 YEARS. NASA's unmanned space program is actually its major bright spot which separates it from the rest, as the US is the only country to have sent probes to every planet in the solar system. No other space agency even reaches NASA's ankles when it comes to unmanned mission accomplishments.

Basically the article says the Chinese space program 'might' shame NASA, and then gives nothing!

China's space program has made strides, and it is developing, but to even say it MIGHT eclipse and shame RosCosmos, let alone NASA, at this point is extremely weak. You might as well say ISRO 'might' shame NASA and RosCosmos and you'd be equally right!

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## General Observer

anon45 said:


> That is the general idea with other companies, but if SpaceX has a a different plan with their MCT all the more power to them. They have the vision and have clearly demonstrated the competency. That they are a private company should not stop NASA from utilising them, hell they are an American company.
> 
> 
> 
> That the article is clickbait title with no actual substance is the entire point.It is all "might", "maybe" "could"
> 
> It doesn't define how China's moon program is considered 'aggressive'. They are planning a landing around 2030? That hardly sounds like an aggressive program, by that measure the US' program for a manned landing on mars is aggressive, and most would not consider it such.
> 
> It doesn't specify any innovation in its rockets, just says the program is innovative, no specifics, and says China is developing bigger rockets. Whoopdee doo, so are we!
> 
> It hypes up taking 13 tons to orbit ignoring that the US has launchers that take up more, the Falcon 9 takes up the same amount, and the Falcon Heavy will take up significantly more, let alone the SLS.
> 
> 
> It hypes up China's moon rovers ignoring that the US has 2 on mars, one of which has been active for 12 YEARS. NASA's unmanned space program is actually its major bright spot which separates it from the rest, as the US is the only country to have sent probes to every planet in the solar system. No other space agency even reaches NASA's ankles when it comes to unmanned mission accomplishments.
> 
> Basically the article says the Chinese space program 'might' shame NASA, and then gives nothing!
> 
> China's space program has made strides, and it is developing, but to even say it MIGHT eclipse and shame RosCosmos, let alone NASA, at this point is extremely weak. You might as well say ISRO 'might' shame NASA and RosCosmos and you'd be equally right!



By the way, if you read the above, I did just praise Spacex for effort, because I have many of my old classmates and friends working there; I just hate the company for a personal conflict with them in 2011, but that's besides the point.

And, who cares if they are an american company? You are going to discount the many other great entities outside of america because they're not 'american?' That's such a loser's attitude, I'm sorry.

Perhaps this is just a fun article, there have been so many on the forums haven't there? Just relax, and enjoy yourselves... Jeeshhh

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## anon45

C130 said:


> competition is what will drive space exploration.
> 
> SLS will fail because it's government ran and managed.
> 
> manned space travel has became stale. we havenen't traveled from low earth orbit since 1973 I believe.
> 
> 
> space shuttle was a waste of resources along with ISS  though both are technological wonders
> 
> 
> if China can get us beyond low earth space travel I will become a China fan boy


Don't actually agree that everything that govt touches turns to crap in spaceflight. They serve their purpose of pioneering where investment fails.

The case for the MCT is also unclear yet, who are their early customers? Only ones I can see are national space agencies at this point.

My main issue with the SLS is how often it will be launched, and of course the sky high prices. Capability is not the question for me though. It most definitely will be capable, just not necessarily efficient.



General Observer said:


> By the way, if you read the above, I did just praise Spacex for effort, because I have many of my old classmates and friends working there; I just hate the company for a personal conflict with them in 2011, but that's besides the point.
> 
> And, who cares if they are an american company? You are going to discount the many other great entities outside of american because they're not 'american?' That's such a loser's attitude, I'm sorry.
> 
> Perhaps this is just a fun article, there have been so many on the forums haven't there? Just relax, and enjoy yourselves... Jeeshhh




Id assume an American government space agency would prefer to launch on American launchers if it is suitable for the purposes of the mission yes.

Not to discount partnerships of course, but it doesn't seem like a leap of logic to me.

;edit: Never thought you were a SpaceX hater, If you worked in newspace you know how far they have come.

fun article...


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## Aepsilons

beijingwalker said:


> *Today the Shenzhou ferries taikonauts (Chinese astronauts) into space.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *Shenzhou spacecraft are loosely based on Russia's Soyuz vehicles. They both have three separate modules, but the Chinese version is larger and made with different materials.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *Unlike NASA, whose astronauts have to hitch rides into space from Russia, China has the rocket power to launch its own space travelers.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *The spacecraft can snugly fit three people.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *And as soon as China successfully built the Shenzhou, it didn't waste any time using it to send taikonauts into space.*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Taikonaut Wang Yaping trains for a mission inside this spinning machine at the Beijing Aerospace City.*
> 
> *On June 16, 2012, taikonauts Jing Haipeng (right), Liu Wang (center) and Liu Yang (left) were sent off in style from the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in Gansu province.*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *TO BE CONTINUED..*




One small step for China, another giant leap for mankind.

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## General Observer

anon45 said:


> Don't actually agree that everything that govt touches turns to crap in spaceflight. They serve their purpose of pioneering where investment fails.
> 
> The case for the MCT is also unclear yet, who are their early customers? Only ones I can see are national space agencies at this point.
> 
> My main issue with the SLS is how often it will be launched, and of course the sky high prices. Capability is not the question for me though. It most definitely will be capable, just not necessarily efficient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Id assume an American government space agency would prefer to launch on American launchers if it is suitable for the purposes of the mission yes.
> 
> Not to discount partnerships of course, but it doesn't seem like a leap of logic to me.



My mistake-I misunderstood it for 'if it's not american, it's not up to par.'

By the way, thread is getting derailed. If you want to talk about american spaceflight, y'all might want to open up one in a different portion of the forums.

Regarding this article, we can agree that it's superficial in content, but was written by someone in the West. So let us move on from trolling from all sides...

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## 21stCentury

Beast said:


> CZ-5 rocket debut is important to prove China as a space power. Without CZ-5, China can't called herself space power.
> 
> 
> You are sprouting nonsense. Has 50 years ago has GPS system? China has build a rival beidou system to match US. That wouldn't put China 50 years behind US.



The thing with this 'X years ahead or X years below' is not straight forward as in it will literally take X amount of years to catch up. It's all about key technologies, once China acquires/develops certain technologies which it is lacking in it will leap forward and close the gap in technological disparity.

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## Aepsilons

21stCentury said:


> The thing with this 'X years ahead or X years below' is not straight forward as in it will literally take X amount of years to catch up. It's all about key technologies, once China acquires/develops certain technologies which it is lacking in it will leap forward and close the gap in technological disparity.



LOL, "technological disparity" ? Are you admitting that China is technologically disparate ?


----------



## Slave_to_the_waffle

General Observer said:


> By the way, thread is getting derailed. If you want to talk about american spaceflight, y'all might want to open up one in a different portion of the forums.



Here you go:

US Space Program - a thread

Sven might murder you depending on how lengthy your discussion is though.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> LOL, "technological disparity" ? Are you admitting that China is technologically disparate ?



How the Christmas season treating you? Any snow yet?

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## Aepsilons

21stCentury said:


> The thing with this 'X years ahead or X years below' is not straight forward as in it will literally take X amount of years to catch up.



Comparison game is always unproductive, in general. Anyways, its always relative.



Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> How the Christmas season treating you? Any snow yet?



Its not bad , actually. Spent a lot on gifts for the family, and i still feel like i'm missing something !!!

How about you? Did the Christmas Elves help you out? ha ha ha ha , my beautiful Norwegian fwend?  



Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> Sven might murder you depending on how lengthy your discussion is though.



He's more than welcome to try, i've become almost immune to strangulation, nowadays. ha ha ha.....!

Anyways, give our Swedish friend my regards.

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## Slave_to_the_waffle

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Its not bad , actually.



Ugh, sounds horrible. It's December 22nd and the only "white stuff" I've seen is from a powdered doughnut.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> and i still feel like i'm missing something !!!



I know the feeling. Sven, Anna, the rest of his family (including his dogs and sister who's living with them), my family and friends, coworkers. I'm thinking about getting my purse therapy sessions for Christmas. It's feeling abused.

...

Oh, wait I know what's missing. We lost @Armstrong !!!

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## 21stCentury

Nihonjin1051 said:


> LOL, "technological disparity" ? Are you admitting that China is technologically disparate ?



Well yes, there are certain technologies where China have not fully mastered, why is that funny?

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## Aepsilons

21stCentury said:


> why is that funny?



Nothing. I Love You. 

Muah, muah ! Thats my Christmas present to you ! My warm, succulent and moist kiss! LOL



Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> Ugh, sounds horrible. It's December 22nd and the only "white stuff" I've seen is from a powdered doughnut.



LOL, no snow over there in Norway land? No snow back in Jersey, 'twas raining the last time i remember.



Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> I know the feeling. Sven, Anna, the rest of his family (including his dogs and sister who's living with them), my family and friends, coworkers. I'm thinking about getting my purse therapy sessions for Christmas. It's feel abused.



Hahahahaha, awww, how cute. lol @ 'purse therapy' session.



Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> Oh, wait I know what's missing. We lost @Armstrong !!!



Where is he? tis a fond farewell from our @Armstrong ? He leaveth us alone, on this dark , chilly solstice night....


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## 21stCentury

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Nothing. I Love You.
> 
> Muah, muah ! Thats my Christmas present to you ! My warm, succulent and moist kiss! LOL
> 
> ....



I'm good.

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## Aepsilons

21stCentury said:


> I'm good.



Hahaha, i was just kidding, dude. Can't just laugh with me?


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## j20blackdragon

General Observer said:


> Speaking of the space shuttle, what Spacex accomplished isn't much more of a feat that what the Space Shuttle accomplished, except it was able to re-use a booster. What would be a feat, is if we could finally ditch chemical propulsion, and invest in technological barrier breaking propulsion methods i.e. Nuclear, Ion propulsion (VASIMR such as), and my personal proposal, gravity modification.



Smartest paragraph in this entire thread.

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## Indika

More investment will get better technology. I dont see any reason why china cant do it. I wish china invests more and does better. US is a benchmark bcos soviets went of the radar. But when soviets were around they were the best. 

Wish china all the best, technology in particular space exploration is not a privilege of westerners alone. Those *** holes had the gal to ridicule india when they sent probe to mars.


----------



## jhungary

hirobo2 said:


> Lol, are you serious? What's the point of wasting tax dollars looking at remote regions of outer space where things have been dead for millions of years (by the time the light rays reach Earth, those objects are no longer around)? * Hubble serves no practical purpose whatsoever*!



lol.......exactly how stupid are you??

You do know when you see a star, any stars in the sky, that's another sun (Which the astromatical term is star by the way) from another Universe. Your last line basically blasted all your creditability to smithereens.



beijingwalker said:


> I really doubt that US can do what they used to be able to do, US might be 50 years behind where they used to be today. The whole industry is losing sufficient fund. Money talks in the end.



lol.......you do know NASA budget is 12 times of CNSA budget right? (18.1 Billions in 2015 vs 1.5 billions for CNSA in 2014) 

As with all my other space post. There are *NOTHING MORE TO BE DONE* on moon bounded by the current outer space treaty for NASA to expand, NASA have done basically all they can with the Moon and stratosphere between 1970 to 2010 with 170 space mission. Nothing more can be done unless US abandon the Outer space treaty. It basically a waste of money to send people to the moon for US as they will just go there, walk around and do nothing, as EVERYTHING had been done in the past 40 years before....

If US were to abandon the treaty tomorrow and start colonize the moon, US will have the technology to transport module and precisely land on any part of the Moon it desire, know where to set up the colony to enjoy the soil structure, know where to put solar panel to enjoy maximum sunlight, know where to desalinate so the drinking water will not be contaminated by Space radiation. Know the effect of "Moon-Light" which is different than on Earth.....Basically all that were done and ready and the only thing they need is the word "go" then they can colonize the moon.

NASA move on to other project, that does not mean they did not work at all. Like the NASA X-Craft, and the space probe. You have to be quite naïve to believe the NASA is going backward.....


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## Cyberian

No nation will surpass the American space program unless it puts a man on another planet before the Americans do. I can't see that happening though.

You can put all of the world's space programs together and they still will not come anywhere close the American space program.

By the way, NASA is finally getting a budget increase.


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## Beast

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> What I am saying that there are huge gaps in China's Space technology. Which means they are close behind US in some areas and decades behind in other areas. One example is that China can build Fifth generation fighters but lacks local engine technology to power it.





ArsalanKhan21 said:


> *China is still at least 50 years behind USA in space technology but catching up quickly. *China is now doing what US did in early 1960s. US astronauts landed on Moon on 20 July 1969 no other nation has matched that yet. The Space race in the 1960s was not about science but the superiority of ideologies. Now Space investment has to be justified.



Can you read your own writing? So now you denied you say China is 50years behind USA in space technology?

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## 3Kingdoms

SUPARCO said:


> By the way, NASA is finally getting a budget increase.



That and a get out of jail free pass;
*
NASA's Child Pornography Ring *_[note I'm not permitted to link sites]_

Report date 26 August 2015
dailymail..../news/article-318495
NASA employees caught buying child **** from site which showed three-year-olds being abused - but they escape prosecution and now their names are being kept secret
_
/watch?v=S3PqUmcGnhU_

*Federal agents raid NASA 2006*
cbsnews /news/feds-raid-nasa-office-in-p0rn-probe 

Federal agents raided a NASA office in Washington on Wednesday during a child pornography probe, accusing an agency executive of viewing and trading illicit images and videos from his home and work computers, according to a court affidavit obtained by an investigative Web site.

Seems the US need these scientist no matter what! Clear indication of Chinas threat.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Beast said:


> Can you read your own writing? So now you denied you say China is 50years behind USA in space technology?



The Chinese member indicated that China close to US in GPS technology and has its own satellites. I am talking about the China's gaps in space technology, US landed man on the moon in 1969 and no other nation has repeated that. It is the Chinese who are boasting their successes.

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## Beast

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The Chinese member indicated that China close to US in GPS technology and has its own satellites. I am talking about the China's gaps in space technology, US landed man on the moon in 1969 and no other nation has repeated that. It is the Chinese who are boasting their successes.


So much of your nonsense. Fake Pakistanis! So GPS is not space technology then is jungle forest?

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## ArsalanKhan21

Beast said:


> So much of your nonsense. Fake Pakistanis! So GPS is not space technology then is jungle forest?



Whatever makes you happy !

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## gambit

jhungary said:


> lol.......you do know NASA budget is 12 times of CNSA budget right? (18.1 Billions in 2015 vs 1.5 billions for CNSA in 2014)
> 
> As with all my other space post. There are *NOTHING MORE TO BE DONE* on moon bounded by the current outer space treaty for NASA to expand, NASA have done basically all they can with the Moon and stratosphere between 1970 to 2010 with 170 space mission. Nothing more can be done unless US abandon the Outer space treaty. It basically a waste of money to send people to the moon for US as they will just go there, walk around and do nothing, as EVERYTHING had been done in the past 40 years before....
> 
> If US were to abandon the treaty tomorrow and start colonize the moon, US will have the technology to transport module and precisely land on any part of the Moon it desire, know where to set up the colony to enjoy the soil structure, know where to put solar panel to enjoy maximum sunlight, know where to desalinate so the drinking water will not be contaminated by Space radiation. Know the effect of "Moon-Light" which is different than on Earth.....Basically all that were done and ready and the only thing they need is the word "go" then they can colonize the moon.
> 
> NASA move on to other project, that does not mean they did not work at all. Like the NASA X-Craft, and the space probe. You have to be quite naïve to believe the NASA is going backward.....


You are talking to a guy who probably never been any higher than 30,000 ft in an airliner.


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## 3Kingdoms

jhungary said:


> l
> As with all my other space post. There are *NOTHING MORE TO BE DONE* on moon bounded by the current outer space treaty for NASA to expand, NASA have done basically all they can with the Moon and stratosphere between 1970 to 2010 with 170 space mission. Nothing more can be done unless US abandon the Outer space treaty. It basically a waste of money to send people to the moon for US as they will just go there, walk around and do nothing, as EVERYTHING had been done in the past 40 years before....
> 
> If US were to abandon the treaty tomorrow and start colonize the moon, US will have the technology to transport module and precisely land on any part of the Moon it desire, know where to set up the colony to enjoy the soil structure, know where to put solar panel to enjoy maximum sunlight, know where to desalinate so the drinking water will not be contaminated by Space radiation. Know the effect of "Moon-Light" which is different than on Earth.....Basically all that were done and ready and the only thing they need is the word "go" then they can colonize the moon.
> 
> NASA move on to other project, that does not mean they did not work at all. Like the NASA X-Craft, and the space probe. You have to be quite naïve to believe the NASA is going backward.....



I thought NASA planned to build a station on the Moon? Europe and Russia have teamed together to plan colonization of the Moon, especially mine this Helium-3. China the same I don't think NASA would take a seat with all this happening.

bbc...../news/science-environment-34504067

We can also guess the many benefits for weapon's defence, medical science etc.


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## jhungary

gambit said:


> You are talking to a guy who probably never been any higher than 30,000 ft in an airliner.



well.....you know, they think space is just like earth, they can do whatever they wanted disregarding all kind of restriction like weightlessness and radiation....



3Kingdoms said:


> I thought NASA planned to build a station on the Moon? Europe and Russia have teamed together to plan colonization of the Moon, especially mine this Helium-3. China the same I don't think NASA would take a seat with all this happening.
> 
> bbc...../news/science-environment-34504067
> 
> We can also guess the many benefits for weapon's defence, medical science etc.



That is for Private Venture. not for government venture. The US government was bounded by Outer Space Treaty, but private company did not. Theoretically, if a Chinese Company can go to space, they can colonize anything and everything, same as any US company or any company from anywhere. But Chinese and US Government cannot colonize the space as per the treaty


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## Kyle Sun

No matter what , we are running in the right direction.

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## 3Kingdoms

jhungary said:


> That is for Private Venture. not for government venture. The US government was bounded by Outer Space Treaty, but private company did not. Theoretically, if a Chinese Company can go to space, they can colonize anything and everything, same as any US company or any company from anywhere. But Chinese and US Government cannot colonize the space as per the treaty



Smart move that treaty - just read up on it... It also prohibits nukes but conventional weapons are allowed! I guess private venture is where the $ is at.
Read on NASA's own site an argument for colonizing the moon as a first step to Mars, mind you its from 2005.
science.nasa.gov.....
/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/18mar_moonfirst/


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## oprih

Good job China, I'm sure more amazing achievements will be delivered by China next year.
Why is that in every thread though about Chinese achievements, there has to be americans and their pets spewing some nonsense in an effort to derail the thread? Government-sponsored trolls?

Rated negatively by a western whore.

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## rott

Most of them root for their adopted country since their own country has nothing much to show for. 
USA USA USA.... Lol

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## Martian2

*Taiwan controls 90% of world computer notebook and tablet production*

In the following December 22, 2015 citation, we see that Taiwan still controls 90% of worldwide computer notebook and tablet production. All of the actual production is on mainland China. It's too expensive to manufacture in Taiwan.

If you go through each industrial sector, you will realize that Taiwan caused the boom in China's electronics (including enterprise computer servers), semiconductors, and petrochemical industries.
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Can Taiwan achieve another miracle with hardware startups?

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## Red Wolf

*China’s assiduous courting of former Soviet Central Asian nations is stirring apprehension among Russia’s leaders*
*PUBLISHED: 28 December, 2015



*
President Xi Jinping meets Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) member heads of government earlier this month. Photo: EPA

Slowly but surely, a four-lane highway is beginning to take shape on the sparsely populated Central Asian steppe. Soviet-era cars, trucks and ageing long-distance buses weave past modern yellow bulldozers, cranes and towering construction drills, labouring under Chinese supervision to build a road that could one day stretch from eastern Asia to Western Europe.

This small stretch of blacktop, running past potato fields, bare dun-coloured rolling hills and fields of grazing cattle, is a symbol of China’s march westward, an advance into Central Asia that is steadily wresting the region from Russia’s embrace.

Here the oil and gas pipelines, as well as the main roads and the railway lines, always pointed north to the heart of the old Soviet Union. Today, those links are beginning to point toward China.

“This used to be Russia's back yard,” said Raffaello Pantucci, director of International Security Studies at the Royal United Services Institute in London, “but it is increasingly coming into China's thrall.”

It is a shift that has shaken up the Russian leadership, which is watching China’s advance across the steppe with little apprehension. Moscow and Beijing may speak the language of partnership these days, but Central Asia has emerged a source of wariness and mistrust.

For China, the region offers rich natural resources, but Beijing’s grander commercial plans — to export its industrial overcapacity and find new markets for its goods — will struggle to find wings in these poor and sparsely populated lands.





In September 2013, Chinese President Xi Jinping (習近平) chose Kazakhstan’s sparkling, modern new capital, Astana, to announce what has since become a cornerstone of his new, assertive foreign policy, a Silk Road Economic Belt that would revive ancient trading routes to bring new prosperity to a long-neglected but strategically important region at the heart of the Eurasian continent.

Bound together by 2,000 years of exchanges dating to the Western Han Dynasty and sharing a 1,100-mile border, the two nations, Xi said, now have a “golden opportunity” to develop their economies and deepen their friendship.

At the China-Kazakhstan border, at a place known as Horgos to the Chinese and Khorgos to the Kazakhs, a massive concrete immigration and customs building is being completed to mark that friendship, rising from the windswept valley floor like a mammoth Communist-style spaceship.

A short distance away, China is building an almost entirely new city, apartment block by apartment block, alongside a two-square-mile free-trade zone, where traders sit in new multi-storey shopping malls hawking such items as iPhones and fur coats.

This is reputed to have been a seventh-century stop for Silk Road merchants. Today, the People's Daily newspaper calls it “the pearl” on the Silk Road Economic Belt.

But this pearl is distinctly lopsided: On the Kazakh side of the zone, opposite all those gleaming malls, a single small building, in the shape of a nomad’s tent or yurt, sits on an expanse of wasteland where a trickle of people stop to buy biscuits, vodka and camel’s milk.





A Chinese surveyor climbs to take measurements at the site of a bridge project near Shymkent, Kazakhstan, on Sept. 16. (Adam Dean/For The Washington Post)

The Silk Road slogan may be new, but many of its goals are not. Beijing has long been working to secure a share of the region’s rich natural resources to fuel China’s industrial economy; it is building a network of security cooperation in Central Asia as a bulwark against Islamic extremism that could leak into China’s restive western province of Xinjiang, and it wants to create alternative trading routes to Europe that bypass Asia’s narrow, congested shipping lanes.

Under the Silk Road plan, China also is promising to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build new infrastructure here, and hopes to reap benefits of its own: to create new markets for Chinese goods, especially for heavy industries such as steel and cement that have suffered as the Chinese economy has slowed.

But the scene at Horgos underlines the fact that the economies of China’s Central Asian neighbours are simply too small to provide much of a stimulus to China’s giant, slowing economy.

*Russian opposition*

China’s ambitious Central Asian plans did not go down well, at least initially, in Moscow.

“When China announced its Silk Road plan in Kazakhstan, it was met with a lot of scepticism and even fear by the Russian leadership,” said Alexander Gabuyev, head of the Russia in the Asia-Pacific Program at the Carnegie Moscow Centre. “The feeling was, ‘It’s a project to steal Central Asia from us, they want to exploit our economic difficulties to be really present in the region.’ ”

Russia had long blocked China’s attempts to create an infrastructure development bank under the auspices of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, a regional body, fearing it would become a tool for Chinese economic expansion.

Beijing responded by sidestepping Moscow, establishing an Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank in June with a $100 billion capital base.





Kazakh staff and customers are seen in a yurt selling imported goods on the Kazakh side of the Horgos free-trade zone in Horgos, China, on Sept. 14. (Adam Dean/For The Washington Post)

China has overtaken Russia to become Central Asia’s biggest trade partner and lender. Pipelines transport increasing amounts of Kazakh oil to China and vast quantities of Turkmen gas east through Horgos. That has served to undermine Russia’s negotiating position when it has tried to sell its own gas to China.

At the same time, however, President Xi has worked overtime to calm Russian fears, reassuring his counterpart Vladimir Putin that Beijing has no plans to counter his country’s political and security dominance in Central Asia.

In 2014, Russia attempted to draw the region more closely into its embrace by establishing a Eurasian Economic Union, with Kazakhstan a founding member.

But even as Moscow moved to protect its turf, the realisation was dawning that Russia lacked the financial resources to provide Central Asia the economic support it needed.

After the breakdown of relations with the West over Ukraine in 2014, and the imposition of sanctions, the dogmatic view that Russia had to be the top economic dog in Central Asia was questioned, and then finally, grudgingly abandoned.

It was impossible, Gabuyev said, so Russia’s leaders decided to divide the labour: Russia would provide security, while China would bring its financial muscle.

In May, Xi and Putin signed a treaty designed to balance the two nations’ interests in Central Asia and integrate the Eurasian Economic Union and the Silk Road.

China’s expanding influence has provoked mixed feelings in many states.

About a quarter of Kazakhstan’s citizens are ethnic Russians, while Russian media dominate the airwaves. The Chinese language, by contrast, is nowhere to be seen or heard. Even India has more cultural resonance through Bollywood films, said political scientist Dossym Satpayev in Almaty.

What Beijing can offer is infrastructure loans and investment. It has been careful to frame its plans as more than just a “road” — where Kazakhstan's resources are extracted and Chinese goods waved on their way to Europe — but as a “belt” of economic prosperity.





A construction worker erects scaffolding at a shopping mall construction project overlooking the entrance building to the Horgos free-trade zone in Horgos, China, on Sept. 14. (Adam Dean/For The Washington Post)

Nevertheless, a survey conducted by independent analyst Elena Sadovskaya found that Kazakh attitudes toward Chinese migrant workers reflected fears that China would one day dominate the country, swamp it with immigrants and cheap goods, grab land or simply suck out its natural resources. “In 2030, we'll all wake up and find ourselves speaking Chinese,” is one common saying here.

In July, scores of people were injured when a mass brawl broke out between Chinese and local workers at a copper mine near the northern Kazakh city of Aktogay.

Kazakhstan’s Foreign Minister Erlan Idrissov plays down concerns. China may outnumber the 17 million Kazakh population by 80 to one, but its progress and development is good news, he says.

“Our philosophy is simple: We should get on board that train,” he said in an interview in Astana. “We want to benefit from the growth of China and we don't see any risks to us in that growth.”

China’s state-owned investment giant CITIC runs an oilfield and an asphalt factory in Kazakhstan, and has said it had established a US$110 billion fund to invest in Silk Road projects, with much of the money aimed at Kazakhstan and Central Asia.





Chinese and Kazakh traders line up to pass immigration and enter the Horgos free-trade zone in Horgos, China, on Sept 14. (Adam Dean/For The Washington Post)

But private Chinese companies and ordinary Chinese traders said they have yet to reap the rewards, as the small Kazakh economy is shrinking under the weight of falling commodity prices and Russia’s economic decline.

Meanwhile Russia was playing interference, they said, imposing new import restrictions under the Eurasian Economic Union.

In Almaty, the Yema Group has been importing Chinese bulldozers, diggers and other heavy equipment for more than a decade. Business, once booming, has collapsed in the past two years, as many Chinese vehicles fail to meet tough Russian certification standards that now apply throughout the economic union.

Shi Hairu, a 52-year-old trader from Shanghai who sells Chinese gloves in a small shop in a market in Almaty, arrived two years ago when the economy at home started to slow. But sales have been halved this year — a sharp depreciation in the Kazakh currency, the tenge, has drastically reduced locals’ purchasing power, while customs clearance has become slower and costlier.

In the Horgos free-trade zone, Chinese traders also say business is poor. Many were lured here by tax breaks and cut price deals to rent shops, and by enthusiastic cheerleading by state media about the opportunities on offer.





Kazakh traders wait for their goods purchased from China to be cleared on the Kazakh side of the Horgos free-trade zone near Horgos, Kazakhstan, on Sept. 14. (Adam Dean/For The Washington Post)

“After we came here, we realised it was all lies,” said one owner of a shop that sells women's underwear who declined to be named for fear of trouble with the authorities.“We basically got deceived into coming here.”

The Kazakh government is building a “dry port” at Khorgos — with warehouses, an industrial park and rows of cranes to transfer containers across different railroad gauges — in what it hopes will become a major distribution and transshipment hub for goods bound between China and Western Europe, a “mini-Dubai” in the making.

But the nearby free-trade zone still has just one small supermarket, guarded by four lonely concrete camels, plastic flowers in their saddlebags. The nearest Kazakh city, Almaty, is a five-hour drive away along a bone-jarring road.

Yang Shu, director of the Institute of Central Asian Studies at Lanzhou University, calls Horgos “a mistake” because so few people are in its vicinity. Trade between the two nations declined 40 percent in the first six months of this year, to $5.4 billion, just a quarter of 1 percent of China’s global trade.





A Chinese worker from Sinohydro works in an office on the company’s base near Shymkent, Kazakhstan, on Sept. 16. (Adam Dean/For The Washington Post)

Nevertheless, experts agree that China’s Silk Road plan has immeasurably more clout than the American New Silk Road plan advanced by then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in 2011 that was meant to bind Afghanistan to Central Asia but that barely got off the ground, or Russia’s own pivot to Asia, mired in economic woes and bureaucratic inertia.

For now, Pantucci, at the Royal United Services Institute, said China and Russia have established a “modus vivendi”.

“I used to believe Central Asia would become a bone of contention between the two countries, but the priority in Moscow and Beijing remains the broader strategic relationship,” he said.

But Tom Miller, at a consulting firm called Gavekal Dragonomics, argues that as Beijing’s investment and financial ties with Central Asia deepen, “its political influence will inevitably strengthen,” too. Harking back to the “Great Game,” the 19th-century contest between the British and Russian empires’ influence in Central Asia, he says there is only one winner this time around.

“Beijing’s strategists studiously avoid any talk of playing a ‘New Great Game’ in the heart of Asia — but they look set to win it nonetheless,” Miller said.

*Source*: South China Morning Post / The Washington Post

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## LowPost

*An interesting look at the relations between Russia and China and their impact on the global balance of power.*






Russia’s President Vladimir Putin, left, and China’s President Xi Jinping shake hands after signing an agreement during a bilateral meeting at the Xijiao State Guesthouse ahead of the fourth Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia (CICA) summit, in Shanghai, China Tuesday, May 20, 2014. (AP Photo/Carlos Barria, Pool)

_Written by *HB* exclusively for *SouthFront: Analysis & Intelligence*_

*Is there a new economic regime on the horizon?*

In the last couple of years we´ve seen a lot of news about the emerging economic powers, the so called BRICS nations. Events such as the launching of the new development bank the AIIB, the denomination of the Chinese renminbi and most recently its admission in to the IMF´s SDR-basket have hit the headlines in recent times. But to what extent is this just rhetoric, and how much of this is of real significance? Are we really closing in on a historical shift in terms of the global economic structure, such as occurred in the 1870´s,1914,1944 or 1971?

The time frame certainly seems to fit but what are the implications? Do Sino-Russian relations have any significance at all in this aspect, and in particular the latest gas deals with China? The answer lies in analysing the tri-polar relations of the leading world powers China-Russia and the U.S.A.

*The opening of China and Nixon´s abolishment of the dollar-goldstandard in 1971.*

In the 1860´s and 1870´s different economic unions where established such as the Latin Monetary Union and the Nordic Monetary Union. The currencies of these unions as well as other currencies such as the British Pound Sterling at that time where all based on a gold standard. Hence this period of monetary history has been called “the age of the classic gold standard”. In 1914 at the outbreak of world war I, most countries had to abandon the gold-convertibility of their currencies.

Two prominent nations however continued to have gold-redeemable currencies. One was Great Britain (the old empire) under the Bank of England and the other was (the emerging power), the United States of America with its newly launched Federal Reserve Bank. In 1944 at the end of world war II, the U.S. officially overtook Great Britain´s role as the sole economic hegemon of the world, not as an adversary, but as an important ally to the old empire. At the Bretton Woods Conference that year it was decided that only the dollar was to be convertible to gold, but the value of other currencies where to be measured in dollars. This system has been called the “Bretton Woods system” or “the dollar-goldstandard”. In 1971 becouse of pressure mainly from Germany and France to redeem large amounts of dollar-holdings to gold, president Nixon abandoned the convertibility of the American dollar. This occurred as the European manufacturing-base was beginning to surpass the American output for the first time since the end of the war. This event marks a new era in terms of the world monetary system. It also marks the beginning of the U.S.A´s conversion from a production driven economy to a mainly consumer based one.

The opening of China, and its emergence on the global market can also be traced back to 1971. That year Nixon sent Henry Kissinger on his two historic and secret missions to Beijing to pave the way for the opening of China´s economy. Since its opening in 1972, China has gradually grown in to the biggest manufacturing base in the world. In a recent CCTV interview Kissinger spoke about his historic trips to Bejing and their implications. He explains that when he came to Beijing for the first time in 1971, there were no automobiles on the streets, no consumer goods, no skyscrapers and the people were all dressed the same. He further caims that if someone had told him then, what Beijing were to look like in the year 2015, he would have considered that person out of his mind. It is an astonishing achievement of the Chinese people he asserts. Kissinger also explains how the trade relationship with the U.S. has been a big part of this development in China. In 1971 the U.S.´s trade with China was less than with Honduras . Today it´s of global proportions and neither U.S. or China can benefit at the expense of the other he argues.

The joined economies of the two countries now represent half of the global economy. For this reason Kissinger assumes the two countries need to deepen their diplomatic dialogues. The accomplishments of such a dialogue he maintains need to be viewed by the long term trends, but not in terms of the day to day statements. As China is re-emerging in to its historical place as a global power, Kissinger hopes the relationship will not be one of Military confrontations, but one of common problem solving. He proclaims that if one of the economies gets damaged, not only will the other follow suit but the whole world-economy will suffer.

When Kissinger is asked about the implications of the recent slowdown in the Chinese economy, he affirms that it is an unavoidable side-effect of China´s transformation, from a production driven economy to a consumer based one. He also points out that in a historical perspective “western economies” (like th U.S.A. after 1971) have gone through similar transformations before and suffered periodical crisis during that process. Both China and the U.S. should acknowledge this fact according to Kissinger, and synchronize their economic policies to minimize the impact.

The economic relationship with China he points out is now and has been for a while, an indispensable part of the current world system and for that reason it has also been the most continual and consistent foreign policy of the U.S.A. since 1971. Every U.S. president since 1971 has been brought to this reality, whatever the rhetoric in the election campaign was, Kissinger explains.

*The Shanghai summits, Sino-Russian relations*

As I have explained an economic regime-change can happen gradually over a long period of time like in the case of the U.S.A. and Great Britain around 30 years from the launching of the federal reserve in 1914 to the Bretton Woods conference in 1944. Also, as in the case of Great Britain and the U.S. the old and the new hegemon can in fact be allies just as well as adversaries through this evolution. Although Russia is not a candidate to compete for the role of world economic hegemon, the Sino-Russian relationship is an important factor that can influence how the shift from west to east develops and at what speed.

American strategic experts know that Sino-Russian relations have an effect on U.S.-Chinese relations, therefore they pay attention to important developments. A series of such developments have taken place this year. The two eastern countries have laid the foundation for massive economic co-operation. In the latest Shanghai summit, Russia committed to supply China with 25% of its current consumption level of natural gas before the year 2018. CSIS held a conference recently to discuss what effect the deepening Sino-Russian economic ties can have for the U.S.-Chinese relations. Former U.S. National Security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski maintained that Russia is not a global economic power. Furthermore, he does not view Russia as a global military power except with regards to its nuclear capabilities, which are close to those of the U.S. A´s.

China however is a global economic power but it is very limited in its nuclear capabilities. Brzezinski thinks this fact makes Russia an important ally for China. He regards China and the U.S. as the pre-eminent gobal powers, but he acknowledges the fact that China has the option of utilizing Russia against the U.S. when ever convenient. Although Brzezinski believes the U.S.-China relationship is the pre-eminent relationship of the triangle and not the Russian-Chinese one, he acknowledges that the Chinese media is very hostile to the U.S.A. and vice versa. This is not the case in the Russia-China relations and in fact Putin is very popular among the Chinese public. The Chinese leadership also appreciates the fact that the Russians accept their political accommodations (one party system). Brzezinski also worries about how the Chinese view the growing disparity between the rich and the poor in the west, and thinks this could be a damaging factor in the U.S. relationship with China.

Ambassador J. Stapleton Roy, Founding director of the Kissinger institute on China and the United States, and a leading expert at the Wilson-center thinks that both China and Russia have very strong impulses to develop their relationship. Neither country likes to see a “one-polar” world system emerging. Stapleton Roy explains that China and Russia settled their historic border disputes peacefully ten years ago. So geo-strategically they now stand back to back so to speak. He views the Sino-Russian relationship as being currently at its best in post worldwar II history, including the years of communist co-operation.

Ambassador Stapleton focuses his analyses on energy supplies. He points out that before 1990 China´s energy policy was one aimed at self sufficiency, after 1993 however it became increasingly dependent on energy imports. So far it has had an energy policy aimed at diversified supplies. He explains that Europe wants to diversify away from Russia since they don´t like to be dependent on Russia for gas. This he assumes will inevitably increase Chinese demand for Russian gas, and push the two giants even closer to one another. So in a way here Europe and China are competing for the same energy base.

Those that read my previous article about the political economy surrounding the Turkish-Russian crisis know that there may be American impulses to scale down Russian influence in Turkey by altering the energy flows from Russia through Turkey in to Europe. Perceptive readers however might also have noticed that the increased Iranian supply was to be re-directed out of China and in to Europe through Turkey. So this would serve as a good example of what Stapleton Roy is talking about.

The latest Russian-Chinese gas-agreement seems a very important one, a commitment of 38 billion cubic meters annually, that´s a very big deal by any measure. Also China agreed to Russia´s oil based price-formula. The Chinese have been resisting the formula (an oil- indexed gas-price) in negotiations with Russia for ten years but now all of a sudden they agreed to it. The total Chinese consumption is 70-100 billion cubic meters annually, so the deal is 25%-50% of Chinas current consumption levels. It will however have to be increased drastically before 2018, maybe even doubled, since China is moving away from coal and in to cleaner energy. Since China is doing other gas-deals such as with Turkmenistan and others, the Russian deal should not make China dependent on Russia, Stapleton claims, at least not in the sense of political influence.

The former prime-minister of Australia, Kevin Rudd is an expert on International relations and a long time student of China. Rudd also speaks Mandarin. He views the latest Shanghai agreements as a dramatic world event that fundamentally turns the dial on the arrangements made by Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon in the early 1970´s. He thinks they represent a combination of forces which have been at work in the Sino-Russian relationship and U.S.-China relationship for a long time and which will fundamentally begin to alter the premises of the 1972 strategic concorde.

Regarding how the Chinese view the Russian relationship, Rudd mentions 4 factors.


The Chinese leadership´s first priority is to remain in power. There is no critique of their political arrangements coming from Moscow as opposed to Washington.
The Sino-Russian historic border settlements are a major comforting factor. China no longer views Russia as a threat.
China is in the stage of converting the economy from a production driven (energy intensive) economy to a consumer based (less energy intense) economy. China is looking for securing longtime energy security, food security, raw materials e.t.c. In this sense China views Russia as a huge long time strategic partner of fundamental significance.
China has recently launched a new kind of pro-active diplomacy towards its neighbors, aimed at increasing its influence. The strategic relationship with Russia is an indispensable part of that new diplomacy, according to Rudd.
Regarding the Russian perspective on the relationship Rudd names 3 factors.


China does not challenge their political arrangements.
Their economic relationship with China is an insurance policy against pressure coming from elsewhere (such as western sanctions).
Russia wants to see a multi-polar world. Relations with China are important to retain that world order.
Rudd also points out that there are some anxieties in Russia regarding China too. Being the weaker of the two countries, they fear Chinese influence growing too much. The Russians don´t want to be told what to do by the Chinese.

Brzezinski thinks this anxiety will eventually bring Russia closer to the west. That however, he explains, depends on how the U.S.-Chinese relations will develop. The U.S. therefore needs a better relationship with China, Brzezinski adds.

So it´s in this context that closer relations between Russia and China have great significance. How they develop in the future, will have a major impact on how a new world order unfolds.





The power triangle of the three nations can be visualized as a color-triangle. The dimensions of power in the relations between the old and the new empire (U.S.A-China) are probably somewhere in the light green area for the moment. China needs to draw power from Russia to move the U.S. relations closer to the blue area. That would also mean their Russian relations turned a little red-purple in the process.

The Chinese gas-deal with Russia moves the Sino-Russian relations more towards the red-purple, without however visibly moving the U.S.-China relations at all. But China also gave in to an oilprice-indexed deal, they´ve been resisting for years. That gives OPEC some leverage too, I assume. Which I would also imagine moves both the Green and Orange squares closer to the yellow at the same time on the triangle. That would mean an overall power movement of North-West on the triangle, (Directly away from China). The simple explanation to that is simply, China really needs that energy. However, as J. Stapleton Roy pointed out we have to be careful here “we don´t know the details of this deal, and it´s very likely that Russia was dealing from a weak position”. So maybe the key factor in the deal is not the gas, but the unknown factor . This leads to the question, did China get something else in return?

Relations between Russia and China. Their Impact on Global Balance of Power

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## TaiShang

I do not see why the author simply mouthpieces the Western opinion while almost the entirety of these opinions are pedestrian, at best.

Let's look at what this "expert" Mr. Kevin Rudd had to say:



Arryn said:


> The Chinese leadership´s first priority is to remain in power. There is no critique of their political arrangements coming from Moscow as opposed to Washington.



Wrong. Leadership changes in China, unlike how it is in the developed West in which oftentimes the leadership is simply a mask worn by the power elites that actually run the whole business of governance.



Arryn said:


> The Sino-Russian historic border settlements are a major comforting factor. China no longer views Russia as a threat.



Ah, how innovative! That's been a past history already. News to the expert, China sorted out all of its land borders except the one with India.



Arryn said:


> China is in the stage of converting the economy from a production driven (energy intensive) economy to a consumer based (less energy intense) economy. China is looking for securing longtime energy security, food security, raw materials e.t.c. In this sense China views Russia as a huge long time strategic partner of fundamental significance.



Yes, energy matters. But, what China and Russia have at hand goes well beyond energy. Energy is a nexus, a strong starting point at the moment, but not the entirety of the relationship.



Arryn said:


> China has recently launched a new kind of pro-active diplomacy towards its neighbors, aimed at increasing its influence. The strategic relationship with Russia is an indispensable part of that new diplomacy, according to Rudd.



China has been involved in proactive diplomacy for a long time. It is only over the past few years that foreign diplomacy is being institutionalized more comprehensively. Was not launching the SCO a proactive diplomacy? I bet gaining permanent membership in the UNSC was a pretty successful diplomacy. So, nothing new.

And, on Russia's part, Mr. Rudd says:



Arryn said:


> China does not challenge their political arrangements.



China does not challenge anyone's political arrangements, Mr. Sensitive. That's the very core of China's foreign policy. While itself being ruthlessly sovereign, China cannot impose others political systems.



Arryn said:


> Their economic relationship with China is an insurance policy against pressure coming from elsewhere (such as western sanctions).



Yet, China-Russia strategic partnership goes further back than the sanctions, although, sanctions gave further meaning and impetus to the development of the relationship.



Arryn said:


> Russia wants to see a multi-polar world. Relations with China are important to retain that world order.



Almost everybody wants that. The question is, who is capable of doing that?



Arryn said:


> Rudd also points out that there are some anxieties in Russia regarding China too. Being the weaker of the two countries, they fear Chinese influence growing too much. The Russians don´t want to be told what to do by the Chinese.



Russia is not the "weaker" side. It is the "equal." A weak Russia would not singlehandedly send US government to take "Strategy 101" at a community college.

And why would the "Chinese" be telling Russians what to do? Is this a mental reflection of classic Western vassal-landlord relationship?



Arryn said:


> Brzezinski thinks this anxiety will eventually bring Russia closer to the west.



Wrong. Because states do have lots of anxieties all the time. But, what matters is the reality on the ground. And, last time I checked, the US-led West was very eager to tell Russia what to do.



Arryn said:


> That however, he explains, depends on how the U.S.-Chinese relations will develop. The U.S. therefore needs a better relationship with China, Brzezinski adds.



No way. After China rejected the G2 offer, US foreign diplomacy lost direction and concentration. That's good. No level of China-US relations will do away with the strategic expanse of China-Russia relations. That's unimaginable. That's becoming more and more a distant likelihood each time the US regime sends some stunt ships/jets into China's territorial waters.

The die is cast on this.

@Chinese-Dragon , @vostok , @Shotgunner51 , @Martian2 , @Economic superpower et al.

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## Pakistanisage

A strong Sino-Russian relations is very good for Pakistan.

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## LowPost

TaiShang said:


> I do not see why the author simply mouthpieces the Western opinion while almost the entirety of these opinions are pedestrian, at best.
> 
> Let's look at what this "expert" Mr. Kevin Rudd had to say:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. Leadership changes in China, unlike how it is in the developed West in which oftentimes the leadership is simply a mask worn by the power elites that actually run the whole business of governance.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, how innovative! That's been a past history already. News to the expert, China sorted out all of its land borders except the one with India.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, energy matters. But, what China and Russia have at hand goes well beyond energy. Energy is a nexus, a strong starting point at the moment, but not the entirety of the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> China has been involved in proactive diplomacy for a long time. It is only over the past few years that foreign diplomacy is being institutionalized more comprehensively. Was not launching the SCO a proactive diplomacy? I bet gaining permanent membership in the UNSC was a pretty successful diplomacy. So, nothing new.
> 
> And, on Russia's part, Mr. Rudd says:
> 
> 
> 
> China does not challenge anyone's political arrangements, Mr. Sensitive. That's the very core of China's foreign policy. While itself being ruthlessly sovereign, China cannot impose others political systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet, China-Russia strategic partnership goes further back than the sanctions, although, sanctions gave further meaning and impetus to the development of the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> Almost everybody wants that. The question is, who is capable of doing that?
> 
> 
> 
> Russia is not the "weaker" side. It is the "equal." A weak Russia would not singlehandedly send US government to take "Strategy 101" at a community college.
> 
> And why would the "Chinese" be telling Russians what to do? Is this a mental reflection of classic Western vassal-landlord relationship?
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. Because states do have lots of anxieties all the time. But, what matters is the reality on the ground. And, last time I checked, the US-led West was very eager to tell Russia what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> No way. After China rejected the G2 offer, US foreign diplomacy lost direction and concentration. That's good. No level of China-US relations will do away with the strategic expanse of China-Russia relations. That's unimaginable. That's becoming more and more a distant likelihood each time the US regime sends some stunt ships/jets into China's territorial waters.
> 
> The die is cast on this.
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon , @vostok , @Shotgunner51 , @Martian2 , @Economic superpower et al.



Thanks a lot for your sentiment. Southfront is a reliable website for defence topics and geopolitical matters but their authors may be partial to some extent. 



Pakistanisage said:


> A strong Sino-Russian relations is very good for Pakistan.



Precisely. We are seeing an upturn in Pakistan-Russia relations for quite a while now and the announcement of Pakistan's promotion to a full member in the SCO. I'm also hoping that Iran will benefit from the close China-Russia ties.

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## ebrahym

i donot think that Strong sino-russia relations will benefit Pak or india ...... but they surely will change the dynamics of south asia


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## Aepsilons

Red Wolf said:


> China has overtaken Russia to become Central Asia’s biggest trade partner and lender. Pipelines transport increasing amounts of Kazakh oil to China and vast quantities of Turkmen gas east through Horgos. That has served to undermine Russia’s negotiating position when it has tried to sell its own gas to China.



An impressive strategic calculation move by the Chinese Leadership.


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## Force Awakens

Russia will strike back.


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## Red Wolf

Force Awakens said:


> Russia will strike back.




With what? Cheap vodka?

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## Force Awakens

Red Wolf said:


> With what? Cheap vodka?


By assassinating china Generals


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## Beast

Look at how these Turksmen try to discord between the Sino-Russian r/s with poisonous/ fake article.. From Washington post? If the article can be trusted, pig will grow wings and fly

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## TheTruth

Force Awakens said:


> By assassinating china Generals



They're going to assassinate curry generals for being too poor to purchase more hardware.

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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> An impressive strategic calculation move by the Chinese Leadership.



I think this is not a sort of Chinese plot against the Russians. It is just a natural extension of China's economies of scale. Similar developments are taking place in Latin America, as well, albeit at a smaller scale, and China is taking over the US in many areas that it used to enjoy dominant status.

Only major difference perhaps is that China can have land connections in Central Asia and deep into the Eurasia. Plus, Central Asia has enormous hydro-carbon potential.



Beast said:


> Look at how these Turksmen try to discord between the Sino-Russian r/s with poisonous/ fake article.. From Washington post? If the article can be trusted, pig will grow wings and fly



Lots of hot air from the US-regime friendly media against the ever growing China-Russia strategic partnership. Their shortcomings are our strengths.

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## Beidou2020

American regime propaganda article of the day!

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> American regime propaganda article of the day!



 They got to earn a living, bro.

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## Ahiska

China and Russia never really liked each other.
If the US wouldnt exists they would kill each other in no time.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Ahiska said:


> China and Russia never really liked each other.
> If the US wouldnt exists they would kill each other in no time.



Is that a joke man? 

USA might as well not even exist, if you see what happened to Crimea in 2014, the Philippines in 2012, Georgia in 2008. All their allies have been losing territory to Russia and China in the past few years alone, and they haven't even lifted a finger.

Russia and China are basically operating unchecked at the moment, yet relations are stronger than ever.

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## TaiShang

Ahiska said:


> China and Russia never really liked each other.
> If the US wouldnt exists they would kill each other in no time.



Not so, historically.

Being two great powers, they will not be vassal to each other, for sure, but, with or without the US, relations will remain strong.

When China-Russia found the SCO or sorted out the borders, there was no Russia-US enmity at today's scale.

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## cnleio

Chinese is good at trading and building, those developing nations will need China more than Russia in the Middle-Asia ... they r taking the chance to develop with China, also China is a big market for them bigger than Russia market. Whatever Chinese to go, the economy card in our hands should use well ... trading & building more useful than weapons, the most effective weapon not AK47 or M4A1 it's MONEY like the USD or the RMB trading to each other.

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Not so, historically.
> 
> Being two great powers, they will not be vassal to each other, for sure, but, with or without the US, relations will remain strong.
> 
> When China-Russia found the SCO or sorted out the borders, there was no Russia-US enmity at today's scale.



True brother.

The reason for the conflict between China and the USSR during the Cold War was mainly due to (1) ideology and (2) the territorial dispute.

Both of which have been solved. We have officially solved our territorial dispute with Russia, and neither China or Russia care much about ideology anymore.

Now it is all about geopolitical interests. In which Russia is an indispensable ally, along with Pakistan.

The writing is on the wall, and everyone can see it. China and Russia are aligned.

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## LowPost

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Is that a joke man?
> 
> USA might as well not even exist, if you see what happened to Crimea in 2014, the Philippines in 2012, Georgia in 2008. All their allies have been losing territory to Russia and China in the past few years alone, and they haven't even lifted a finger.
> 
> Russia and China are basically operating unchecked at the moment, yet relations are stronger than ever.





TaiShang said:


> Not so, historically.
> 
> Being two great powers, they will not be vassal to each other, for sure, but, with or without the US, relations will remain strong.
> 
> When China-Russia found the SCO or sorted out the borders, there was no Russia-US enmity at today's scale.



In the midst of the Crimean reunification with Russia and the Ukraine crisis Obama and the then-Secretary General of NATO Rasmussen proudly announced that Russia has been 'isolated'. Oh well, since Putin has been boosting the relations with China, Iran, BRICS, SCO and the Eurasian Union they have been proven wrong. 

Upon realising their grave misjudgement Western MSM tries hard to denigrate the partnership between China and Russia by bringing up the 'A Chinese annexation of Siberia is immiment' myth, for instance. The same media outlets also love to pick on China's territorial disputes and 'rising nationalism' without uttering a word about the fact that the historical differences between Beijing and the Kremlin have been solved long before, a milestone in China's and Russia's foreign policy and the US had nothing to do with it.

Is the article from the OP going to halt Russian cooperation with China? I for one am not holding my breath.

军报驳解放军亮相红场是"与强盗同庆"_军事_中国网

@vostok

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## vostok

Arryn said:


> In the midst of the Crimean reunification with Russia and the Ukraine crisis Obama and the then-Secretary General of NATO Rasmussen proudly announced that Russia has been 'isolated'. Oh well, since Putin has been boosting the relations with China, Iran, BRICS, SCO and the Eurasian Union they have been proven wrong.
> 
> Upon realising their grave misjudgement Western MSM tries hard to denigrate the partnership between China and Russia by bringing up the 'A Chinese annexation of Siberia is immiment' myth, for instance. The same media outlets also love to pick on China's territorial disputes and 'rising nationalism' without uttering a word about the fact that the historical differences between Beijing and the Kremlin have been solved long before, a milestone in China's and Russia's foreign policy and the US had nothing to do with it.
> 
> Is the article from the OP going to halt Russian cooperation with China? I for one am not holding my breath.
> 
> 军报驳解放军亮相红场是"与强盗同庆"_军事_中国网
> 
> @vostok


Why should Russia care about trade of the CA countries? They have the right to trade with anyone they want. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan - are Russian military allies in the CSTO. Russian military bases located there. China is not intended to drive out the Russian militaries and replace them with Chinese ones - so we have no reason for conflict.

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## terranMarine

vostok said:


> Why should Russia care about trade of the CA countries? They have the right to trade with anyone they want. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan - are Russian military allies in the CSTO. Russian military bases located there. China is not intended to drive out the Russian militaries and replace them with Chinese ones - so we have no reason for conflict.



I think the Americans are worried about the silk road  , it's the key to economic development and trade for China, Central Asia, Iran, Russia all the way to Europe. We know the game the Americans are trying to play here with that kind of article, Yankees must think Russians are idiots. Sanctions didn't work on Russia so now they want to use propaganda to separate our growing ties. Well tough luck, nobody is falling for such a cheap trick. The Sino-Russo ultimate tag team will bring that warmonger to his knees.

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## Aepsilons

terranMarine said:


> Well tough luck, nobody is falling for such a cheap trick. The Sino-Russo ultimate tag team will bring that warmonger to his knees.



Not to America's knees, anything short of military victory cannot bring America to her knees. The issue that they are worried about is uncontrolled Sino-Russian cooperation in Eurasia that will ultimately affect American designs there.

We can agree that Obama's foreign policy initiatives have ended in epic failure. So for the Russians and Chinese to capitalize on that failure --- they are only doing what is best for their respective national interest(s).

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## terranMarine

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Not to America's knees, anything short of military victory cannot bring America to her knees. The issue that they are worried about is uncontrolled Sino-Russian cooperation in Eurasia that will ultimately affect American designs there.
> 
> We can agree that Obama's foreign policy initiatives have ended in epic failure. So for the Russians and Chinese to capitalize on that failure --- they are only doing what is best for their respective national interest(s).



I wasn't talking about military actions, to bring America to his knees one has to look at the possible options on the table without destroying the whole planet by the 3 mightiest countries pen pal

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## Aepsilons

terranMarine said:


> I wasn't talking about military actions, to bring America to his knees one has to look at the possible options on the table without destroying the whole planet by the 3 mightiest countries pen pal



Still, it will be impossible to bring her on wounded knee , my friend. Their lifeline is on the global merchant fleet....

Eurasian link will be China's and Russia's testament, but even that alone cannot disrupt American economic clout. 

It requires more than that, to be honest.


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## terranMarine

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Still, it will be impossible to bring her on wounded knee , my friend. Their lifeline is on the global merchant fleet....
> 
> Eurasian link will be China's and Russia's testament, but even that alone cannot disrupt American economic clout.
> 
> It requires more than that, to be honest.



It's not just the Eurasian link, it's also not just China eclipsing US as the world's biggest economy in the near future. There are many factors involved in the grand plan. Patience my friend, piece by piece the visualization will emerge as long you know where to look for it.

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## Aepsilons

terranMarine said:


> It's not just the Eurasian link, it's also not just China eclipsing US as the world's biggest economy in the near future. There are many factors involved in the grand plan. Patience my friend, piece by piece the visualization will emerge as long you know where to look for it.



I welcome the rise of China, it is inevitable, however I believe that the interests of China not necessarily be antithetical to that of America's. Both have mutually inclusive interests and both prove to be guarantors of development especially in the developing world.

I appreciate China in that she has largely stayed away from crisis regions in the world, unlike the Russians who have a direct interest in Syria now and are openly taking part in conflict.

China, on the other hand, provides economic support on all parties. I think that is a much more productive stance, less interventionalistic and enables any sovereign nation to settle and sort out their internal affairs independently. 

Intervention only becomes necessary when interests are attacked directly. I think Japan shares that same position.

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## ahojunk

terranMarine said:


> I think the Americans are worried about the silk road  , it's the key to economic development and trade for China, Central Asia, Iran, Russia all the way to Europe. We know the game the Americans are trying to play here with that kind of article, Yankees must think Russians are idiots. Sanctions didn't work on Russia so now they want to use propaganda to separate our growing ties.


Agree. The OBOR is also about security.



terranMarine said:


> Well tough luck, nobody is falling for such a cheap trick. The Sino-Russo ultimate tag team will bring that warmonger to his knees.


Disagree. I don't like war mongering stuff.



terranMarine said:


> I wasn't talking about military actions, to bring America to his knees one has to look at the possible options on the table without destroying the whole planet by the 3 mightiest countries


I am glad you clarified your position.

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## CAPRICORN-88

Red Wolf said:


> *China’s assiduous courting of former Soviet Central Asian nations is stirring apprehension among Russia’s leaders*
> *PUBLISHED: 28 December, 2015*
> *Source*: South China Morning Post / The Washington Post



 If I did not viewed a documentary aired by Channel News, Singapore recently I may actually believe all these negative tall tales invented by Western journalists are true. 

In fact, Washington has every reason to be alarmed as the new infra-structure as well growth along the Silk Route is unprecedented and is getting more and more vibrant by the day.

Historically the people in these nations have strong cultural ties and bond with both Russia and China. Most importantly is they are getting richer and they are independent. So for Western journalist to allege that they are mere puppets of Russia and China is a load of nonsense.

 I think this is precisely why Alibaba took over SCMP.

“Some have suggested that ownership by Alibaba will compromise the SCMP’s editorial independence,” said Alibaba’s Executive Vice Chairman Joseph C. Tsai said in a letter to SCMP readers. “This CRITICISM reflects a BIAS of its own, as if to say newspaper owners must espouse certain views, while those that hold opposing views are ‘UNFIT,'” he said.

“We think the world needs a *PLURALITY* of views when it comes to China coverage. China’s rise as an economic power and its importance to world stability is too important for there to be a singular thesis.”

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## Kaniska

Force Awakens said:


> Russia will strike back.




I doubt..One good thing about China is that it does not intervene in your political affair...That is the strength of China....And China offers lot of value additional in terms of economy to its friends...Unlike Russia which does not have the strength of China in terms of economics..

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## CAPRICORN-88

Ahiska said:


> China and Russia never really liked each other.
> If the US wouldnt exists they would kill each other in no time.



That is an Indian troll's fantasy and dream.

Who knows, If USA did not existed, Russia and China may be the greatest among friends? You do not agree. Hahaha

But you can't dwell on askew hypothesis, can you?

The reality is USA, Russia and China are all military superpowers today. One can just as easily says that it was in fact shit-stirrer Obama's USA that pushed Russia closer to China and China closer to China e.g. Ukraine, Asia pivotal. Why complain? That is why there is video that suggested that Pentagon is revolting against Obama administration.

Today China and Russia do not have any territorial border dispute as they are all water under the bridge and settled. They have a lot more in common, they discovered. They are in fact strategic military partners.

EXAMPLE: 
*Russia, China Sign Satellite Navigation Agreement*
February 10, 2015 

Russia and China have signed a cooperation agreement on satellite navigation, a Russian Space Agency spokesperson told RIA Novosti on Tuesday.

Roscosmos chief Igor Komarov met with Xu Dazhe, the leader of China’s National Space Administration, on an official visit in Beijing.

“The first provision to set up a committee and a protocol were signed during the first working session. Igor Komarov and Xu Dazhe discussed issues of bilateral cooperation in the field of electronic components for rocket construction and building rocket engines,” the spokesperson said.

A Russian-Chinese committee on satellite navigation was established in October 2014 at the meeting between Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yang.

In November, China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) and the Russian GLONASS nonprofit partnership agreed to establish a joint venture to promote worldwide services based on GLONASS and BeiDou.

Russia and China also recently completed joint reconnaissance for the placement of GLONASS differential correction and monitoring stations in the Chinese cities of Urumqi and Changchun. Each country is expected to accommodate three such facilities.








USA and NATO sanction against Russia did not work because of China.

In event of a conflict, USA's embargo or cut-off of energy resources to China thru' SCS will also not work because of secured energy oil-pipe supplies from Russia and Central Asia to China.

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## TaiShang

Arryn said:


> Upon realising their grave misjudgement Western MSM tries hard to denigrate the partnership between China and Russia by bringing up the 'A Chinese annexation of Siberia is immiment' myth, for instance. The same media outlets also love to pick on China's territorial disputes and 'rising nationalism' without uttering a word about the fact that the historical differences between Beijing and the Kremlin have been solved long before, a milestone in China's and Russia's foreign policy and the US had nothing to do with it.



The problem with this attitude is, their regime propaganda machine is not that almighty anymore. There are alternatives where people learn the unbiased and non-manipulated truth.

Like, @Chinese-Dragon said, there were minor border dispute as well as, prior to that, some ideological differences (sort of in-camp disagreement), but those small roadblocks have already been overcome. Also remember, even the ideological struggle between the two was within the same ideological umbrella. So, that was, by nature, no different from the in-fighting between Italian Communist Party and Moscow in the 1920s/30s.

This is the progressive Marxian nature; it is different from that of reactionary and ahistorical right-wing ideologies that are always more unified and act as a bloc.

China and Russia have overcome this Marxian/leftist tendency by fully embracing geopolitical realism and critical thinking.



vostok said:


> Why should Russia care about trade of the CA countries? They have the right to trade with anyone they want. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan - are Russian military allies in the CSTO. Russian military bases located there. China is not intended to drive out the Russian militaries and replace them with Chinese ones - so we have no reason for conflict.



Exactly, in fact，China is very comfortable to interact within the framework of the SCO and has no interest in replacing Russian military presence with its own.



terranMarine said:


> I think the Americans are worried about the silk road  , it's the key to economic development and trade for China, Central Asia, Iran, Russia all the way to Europe. We know the game the Americans are trying to play here with that kind of article, Yankees must think Russians are idiots. Sanctions didn't work on Russia so now they want to use propaganda to separate our growing ties. Well tough luck, nobody is falling for such a cheap trick. The Sino-Russo ultimate tag team will bring that warmonger to his knees.



Very well said!



Nihonjin1051 said:


> I believe that the interests of China not necessarily be antithetical to that of America's.



Better think deeply about Japan and further improving China-Japan relations, my friend. US is an old story to us all in this region.

We just need to manage them.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> Both have mutually inclusive interests and both prove to be guarantors of development especially in the developing world.



Economically, no. Militarily, no. So, no mutual interests in the developing world. We have mutual interests, say, with Japan or Korea in the developing world. And we cooperate. With US? No. They are mostly a militarized country with very little diplomatic flexibility. We cannot work with them in the developing world. We have never worked, in fact. Yours is just sugar-coating the bitter reality, my friend.  Let's not mistake someone else's own interests for ours.



Nihonjin1051 said:


> I appreciate China in that she has largely stayed away from crisis regions in the world, unlike the Russians who have a direct interest in Syria now and are openly taking part in conflict.



Russia is ending the conflict, in my view. Not taking part in it. This is also a favor to China, because it is pounding certain elements that China would love to see annihilated.

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## Red Wolf

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> If I did not viewed a documentary aired by Channel News, Singapore recently I may actually believe all these negative tall tales invented by Western journalists are true.
> 
> In fact, Washington has every reason to be alarmed as the new infra-structure as well growth along the Silk Route is unprecedented and is getting more and more vibrant by the day.
> 
> Historically the people in these nations have strong cultural ties and bond with both Russia and China. Most importantly is they are getting richer and they are independent. So for Western journalist to allege that they are mere puppets of Russia and China is a load of nonsense.
> 
> I think this is precisely why Alibaba took over SCMP.
> 
> “Some have suggested that ownership by Alibaba will compromise the SCMP’s editorial independence,” said Alibaba’s Executive Vice Chairman Joseph C. Tsai said in a letter to SCMP readers. “This CRITICISM reflects a BIAS of its own, as if to say newspaper owners must espouse certain views, while those that hold opposing views are ‘UNFIT,'” he said.
> 
> “We think the world needs a *PLURALITY* of views when it comes to China coverage. China’s rise as an economic power and its importance to world stability is too important for there to be a singular thesis.”




Central Asian nations are free to pick their allies. However, a few facts remain:

1. China and Russia are interested in Central Asia for the long term.
2. China is flushed with cash while Russia is running on fumes.
3. If China is to fulfill its potential, it will need to secure a lot of natural resources. We're talking 1 billion people here.
4. China is not exclusively betting on Central Asia. Its doing big business in Africa, America, etc.

All news sources have some bias and its reflected in their editorial. SCMP is no different.

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## TaiShang

I would like to pool information on the connectivity and cooperation projects related to China One Belt One Road strategy on this thread. 

I also wish not only to dedicate time to material developments, but also to conceptual developments (Eurasianism as opposed to Atlanticism) that arises from this material basis in a true Marxian sense.

Welcome to share and opine.

***

*China-Europe fast rail brings mutual benefit *
Xinhua, January 2, 2016


Trains made nearly 180 round trips between Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province and Lodz, Poland, in the last two and a half years.

Since 2013, three trains a week have made the 9,826 kilometer trip on the Chengdu-Europe fast rail, reaching Poland via Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus.

"Commodities are transported to Europe within 15 days," said Xu Pingfu, vice director of the Chengdu logistics office. "It is the fastest freight railway between China and Europe."

Around 300 trains will ply the route in 2016, which will extend to Hamburg in Germany and Tilburg in the Netherlands. Commodities from coastal cities like Shanghai, Shenzhen and Xiamen are transported to Chengdu and from there to Europe because of the line's low cost and high reliability.

"The price of transporting commodities on the Chengdu-Europe line is one fifth of the air freight cost, and it is three times faster than shipping," said Xu.

Chengdu will spend a total of 1.9 billion yuan (300 million US dollars) in the next three years building China's largest international railway port, said Chen Zhongwei, director of Chengdu logistics office.

Many leading exporters are considering moving to Chengdu for these reasons, according to Chen.

"We aim to be the pivot between Europe and Pan-Asia by building international railways and establishing a European commodity distribution center in the next three years," Chen said.

***

@Chinese-Dragon , @vostok , @Shotgunner51, @Beast , @TianyaTaiwan , @bobsom , @Economic superpower , @AndrewJin , @senheiser , @russiarussia , @xunzi , @ahojunk , @cirr , @Hu Songshan , @waz , @Horus , @Edison Chen , @powastick , @Daniel808 , @cnleio , @tranquilium , @dy1023 , @Yizhi @Arryn , @CAPRICORN-88 , @Nihonjin1051 , @Gotterdammerung, _et al._

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## TaiShang

China's Central Economic Work Conference, Pax Sinica and the global order
January 2, 2016





Another gamesmanship[By Zhai Haijun/China.org.cn]



A curious little essay appeared in the New York Times. It was entitled "Cracks in the Liberal Order" by Ross Douthat, and it talked about how the post-Cold war order had been shaken during 2015, and how Pax Americana was a dying concept.

According to Douthat, the liberal order had survived some brutal attacks and various setbacks in the last quarter of a century, including, most importantly, the rise of China, the "dot com bust," the 9/11 terrorist incident and the rise of Islamism as an ideology drawing mindless and disillusioned youth from the West, while, funnily enough, their Middle East counterparts are flocking West in search of a liberal life free from societal constraints they'd been experiencing.

Douthat argues that no ideology had been able to shake the foundations of the world order until now. So, what is the reason?

The writer believes it is the rise of Populist parties, both economical tra-left and ultra-right, in Europe, and the rise of nativist economically jingoistic ultra-nationalism in West, combined with the Islamic jihad, and the rise of "Putinism."

Ironically, Ross chose to write this article in the same week China's Central Economic Work Conference was held in Beijing, which he totally failed to mention. From a statement, it appears China will focus on five tasks in 2016: cutting industrial capacity, reducing the housing stock, cutting official debt, lowering corporate costs and improving various weak system links.

A CNTV analysis mentioned the government will focus on the biggest poverty reduction endeavor, improve technological advancement and foster emerging sectors. It also stated that to stimulate growth, an overhaul will be undertaken to prevent the supply glut, and resolve industrial overcapacity.

Like supply side reforms across the world in the 1980s, Chinese administrators vowed to cut down and streamline factors causing sluggish growth, which will please foreign investors.

The Douthat analysis, meanwhile, also ignores the start of the AIIB and that the RMB was recognized as a global currency. The China-backed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank was formally established and is expected to be operational early in 2016 as the bank's 17 founding members ratified an agreement. The bank is about to hold its opening ceremony in January and elect its president.

The mainstreaming of the Chinese currency, and the recognition of the Yuan as a global currency signifies, more than anything, the economic health of China on which world hopes are pinned. These economic factors, more than anything, should signify the liberal fundamental economic order is healthy and is actually much more inclusive that it was decade earlier.

*If one glosses over the economic argument, one will realize, the Douthat analysis is not as much a lament of the world order passing, as a lament over the loss of Pax Americana. However, these have never been the same, and it was a mistake to even think they were. The order itself is not dying, and world is not descending into total disorder, just mutating.*

*The threats to the order are not suicidal. The populist parties in Europe and U.S. are all rallying against loss of sovereignty and micromanagement in the EU, and it's really economic sovereignty that has a direct correlation with job losses in Europe. All the anti-migrant rage is really over this, more than societal.*

If one looks at the other side of the ocean, both the Republicans and Democrats are running on a Nativist anti-trade agreement, as the chief argument is, again, related to Asian giants stealing American jobs.

In the Middle East and Africa, masses are fleeing towards an imagined better future, leaving a dark, stagnated continent where the economic future is bleak. *The generational jihadis in the West are a bunch of depressed lost boys and girls who never saw proper jobs and have never taken responsibility for their lives.*

*In the sea of civilization, the eventual tide changed from Pax Britannica to Pax Americana quite smoothly after WWII. In Asia, perhaps we'll see a Pax Sinica in the future, only time will tell. However, what one can welcome is there's no great power, and certainly not China and/or India is rising up with a declared goal of destabilizing the established order.*

China's recent Central Economic Work Conference is a testimony of that mainstreaming and burden sharing of global economy. American analysts in the 1990s constantly asked China to be a part of responsible global citizenry, with shared economic prosperity, and they should now welcome the prospect when it is actually approaching reality, rather than lamenting a loss of alleged global hegemony.

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## 54ptu

China‘s influence will naturally grow, Russia knows best it cannot just keep China out of this region by simply asking politely. We are talking about one of the best geopolitical players here, not some amateur like India who has the habit of running around making unreasonable demands.

Besides，China and Russia have much bigger common interest in CA like cleanse the region of pan-turkism.

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## Force Awakens

Kaniska said:


> I doubt..One good thing about China is that it does not intervene in your political affair...That is the strength of China....And China offers lot of value additional in terms of economy to its friends...Unlike Russia which does not have the strength of China in terms of economics..


Agree with you.


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## TaiShang

Excerpts from the first rescript the first Ming emperor Hongwu (r. 1368–98) sent to Japan in 1369:

“In the past, when the emperors ruled the tianxia, all who were lit by the sun and moon, whether
near or far, were treated with impartiality. Thus with Zhongguo stable and peaceful, [the countries
in] all four directions were in their proper places and there was no intention to make them submit
(to Zhongguo).… We are bringing mutual peace and calm to all countries far and near so that
the good fortunes of peace may be enjoyed by all.”

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## CAPRICORN-88

Red Wolf said:


> Central Asian nations are free to pick their allies. However, a few facts remain:
> 
> 1. China and Russia are interested in Central Asia for the long term.
> 2. China is flushed with cash while Russia is running on fumes.
> 3. If China is to fulfill its potential, it will need to secure a lot of natural resources. We're talking 1 billion people here.
> 4. China is not exclusively betting on Central Asia. Its doing big business in Africa, America, etc.
> 
> All news sources have some bias and its reflected in their editorial. SCMP is no different.



 As a matter of facts, the hinterland nations in Central Asia can’t escape the influence of both Russia and China whether they like it or not.

1. Yes. You are right Russia and China are interested in these nations today. That is because of the USA. USA uses their intelligence services to stir shits in these nations thru’ the NGO, dissidents.

USA pays lots and lots of money to Kyrgyzstan to secure the right to build a military base there on the pretext of supplying the forces in Afghanistan. All of the sudden, protests and demonstrations in this generally peaceful state started to appear. Both Russia and China felt threatened as it is in their backyards e.g. China intelligence has solid evidences that USA use Central Asia to infiltrate Xinjiang. Let us not forget who started the AL QAEDA, ISIS or even armed them.

That is why the Shanghai Cooperation Organization was formed to counter the influence of USA. It WORKS. In 2014 USA was forced to vacate the military base.

2. Whether China or Russia is flushed with cash or fumes has nothing to do with the geopolitical equation. The economies of Central Asia did not contributing much to both the economies of China or Russia anyway. But by securing the contract on the natural resources it is killing two birds with one stone.

3. Both China and Russia are blessed with natural resources. Look at the import numbers of China recently, they are falling. That is because both Russia and China are beginning to tap on their own resources at home. They are not alone. USA is exporting OIL for the first time. So countries like Australia, etc better watch out or mind their language, their words or their foreign policies e.g. FON in S.C.S, ADIZ in the Far East, (which has nothing to do with them except to support USA)etc

4. One thing for sure, the OBOR initiative will bring about prosperity to these nations and peace can be ensured in that way.

 Yes. You are right most news sources especially in the West produced biased news articles against what is perceived as their enemies by their master. So what is wrong with Chinese acquiring these news media to counter the propaganda of the West? Why are they so alarm?

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## cirr

A deal of enormous long-term significance 

*1MDB Sells Majority Stake in Real-Estate Project for $1.7 Billion*

*State investment firm seeks to cut debt*






The landmark KL Tower in Kuala Lumpur in the background with the 1MDB logo in the foreground in September. PHOTO: MANAN VATSYAYANA/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES

By YANTOULTRA NGUI and P.R. VENKAT

Updated Dec. 31, 2015 8:44 a.m. ET

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia—Malaysian state investment fund 1Malaysia Development Bhd. Thursday said it had agreed to sell a majority stake in a Kuala Lumpur real-estate project to a consortium that includes a state-owned Chinese company for 7.41 billion ringgit ($1.72 billion), the second time in recent weeks that a Chinese firm has helped 1MDB cut its debt pile.

The involvement of China Railway Engineering Corp., the Malaysian unit of China Railway Group Ltd., in the winning consortium comes at a time when it is competing with Japanese firms for a contract to build a high-speed rail link between Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. China Railway Engineering Managing Director Cai Zemin said at a news conference announcing the deal that the company would try its best to get the railway project.

Malaysia has previously said any tender would based on internationally recognized standards.

Thursday’s agreement closely follows 1MDB’s move to sell energy assets for $2.3 billion to Chinese state-owned firm China General Nuclear Power Corp., which will also assume 7.43 billion ringgit of the debt held by the energy unit, Edra Global Energy.

The property sale, meanwhile, is for a 60% stake in Bandar Malaysia, the site of an old air force base on the edge of Kuala Lumpur’s city center. It is one of two prime plots of land in the capital that 1MDB bought from the government and planned to develop into a mixed shopping, residential and entertainment center. 1MDB will retain a 40% stake in the development. It also wholly owns another city center development, Tun Razak Exchange, named for Malaysian Prime MinisterNajib Razak’s father.

*MALAYSIA’S 1MDB DECODED*




In a statement Thursday, the state-run firm, whose advisory board is chaired by Mr. Najib, said that “today’s agreement marks the final major milestone in the 1MDB rationalization plan.” It expects the cash deal to be completed by the end of June next year.

Mr. Najib said the deal to sell Bandar Malaysia meant that 1MDB’s major challenges were now behind it.

“Now it is time for us to await the outcomes of the inquiries into the company; to take note of any lessons that need to be learned; and to move on together in a constructive manner,” he said in a New Year’s statement.

Some opposition politicians, however, said the planned sale risked selling off valuable state assets to pay off debts accrued by what they say is 1MDB’s reckless expansion in recent years.

“Today’s agreement has confirmed my earlier fears that 1MDB’s financial troubles will drag the nation into selling off crucial national assets, to pay off the sovereign fund’s massive debts,” said Rafizi Ramli, secretary-general of the People’s Justice Party.

1MDB didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment.

1MDB has begun selling off assets after accumulating more than $11 billion in debt since its launch in 2009 and becoming the focus of investigations in several countries. Its problems have brought scrutiny to Mr. Najib’s role in overseeing 1MDB and have hurt investor confidence in Malaysia’s commodities-driven economy, which had already been suffering from fund outflows and falling oil prices.

The Wall Street Journal reported in July that government investigators had traced nearly $700 million that had passed through agencies, banks and companies linked to 1MDB to the prime minister’s alleged private accounts, but didn’t know where the money went.

Mr. Najib had denied any wrongdoing or taking money for personal gain, but hasn’t explained how the money that was transferred to his alleged accounts was used. He described it to local media as a donation, while his deputy prime minister, Zahid Hamidi, previously said such donations were legal under Malaysian law. The country’s anticorruption agency said the money came from a Middle East donor.

*FULL COVERAGE: MALAYSIA’S 1MDB*



OLIVIA HARRIS/REUTERS

1MDB also denied any wrongdoing and said it would cooperate with the investigations.

China Railway Engineering is teaming with Malaysian tycoon Lim Kang Hoo’s Iskandar Waterfront Holdings Bhd. to buy the stake in Bandar Malaysia, beating other bids from Malaysian groups and interest from the Middle East. Iskandar is also developing a high-end residential and commercial complex in the southern state of Johor, opposite Singapore, and its involvement in the Kuala Lumpur project will help expand its reach in Malaysia.

The Bandar Malaysia site is also attractive to China Railway Engineering as it is planned to be the terminus of the proposed high-speed rail line to Singapore.

The buyers will also take on all of Bandar Malaysia’s obligations, including a 2.4 billion ringgit Islamic bond and the costs of relocating police and military facilities that were on the Bandar Malaysia site, 1MDB President and Group Executive Director Arul Kanda said.

1MDB Sells Majority Stake in Real-Estate Project for $1.7 Billion - WSJ

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## Manidabest

China is just looking for markets for its products and nothing more really its just business nothing personal


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## cirr

*China Railway awarded Gemas-JB rail project*

BY SHAREN KAUR - 11 DECEMBER 2015 @ 12:07 PM

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia is awarding the Gemas-Johor Baru electrified double tracking project (EDTP) to China Railway, says Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai.

Liow said the Gemas-JB line will complete the whole electrified double tracking rail network up to Padang Besar.

Currently, there are 1,641.4km of railway network in Malaysia, of which 46 per cent are electrified double tracks.

The completion of the Gemas-JB EDTP in 2020 will increase the number to 58 per cent.

Liow was speaking at the opening ceremony of the China High Speed Railway Exhibition, here, today.

"We have committed to and are awarding the contract to China Railway so we can speed up the project, he said.

He said keeping in mind how critical a good transportation network is for economic growth and social inclusion in Malaysia's journey to become a high-income nation, his ministry is working hard to identify new railway lines that will enhance the existing rail network especially within the Klang Valley.





Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai said the government is awarding the Gemas-Johor Baru electrified double tracking project (EDTP) to China Railway.

China Railway awarded Gemas-JB rail project | New Straits Times | Malaysia General Business Sports and Lifestyle News

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## TaiShang

*China-Europe fast rail brings mutual benefit *
January 2, 2016 

Trains made nearly 180 round trips between Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province and Lodz, Poland, in the last two and a half years.

Since 2013, three trains a week have made the 9,826 kilometer trip on the Chengdu-Europe fast rail, reaching Poland via Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus.

"Commodities are transported to Europe within 15 days," said Xu Pingfu, vice director of the Chengdu logistics office. "It is the fastest freight railway between China and Europe."

Around 300 trains will ply the route in 2016, which will extend to Hamburg in Germany and Tilburg in the Netherlands. Commodities from coastal cities like Shanghai, Shenzhen and Xiamen are transported to Chengdu and from there to Europe because of the line's low cost and high reliability.

"The price of transporting commodities on the Chengdu-Europe line is one fifth of the air freight cost, and it is three times faster than shipping," said Xu.

Chengdu will spend a total of 1.9 billion yuan (300 million US dollars) in the next three years building China's largest international railway port, said Chen Zhongwei, director of Chengdu logistics office.

Many leading exporters are considering moving to Chengdu for these reasons, according to Chen.

"We aim to be the pivot between Europe and Pan-Asia by building international railways and establishing a European commodity distribution center in the next three years," Chen said.

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## cnleio

*Eight countries. 2,055 nuclear tests. 71 years.*

In the name of national security, eight countries have tested nuclear weapons all over the world since 1945, frequently near populated places. North Korea’s claim of hydrogen bomb test draws skepticism, condemnations. 
(gif display in the news)




Eight countries have performed nuclear tests. The United States and U.S.S.R. have performed the most explosive tests in history.

“Yield,” a measure of how much energy an explosion releases, is measured in kilotons — one equalling about the power of 1,000 tons of TNT. Both nuclear superpowers have performed nuclear tests with yields of at least 10,000 kilotons (at scale above: ).

The United States is the only country that has used a nuclear weapon in war. Those destructive detonations — in Japan at Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945, and at Nagasaki three days later — were just 15 () and 21 () kilotons.

_[A ground zero forgotten: The Marshall Islands, once a U.S. nuclear test site, faces oblivion again]_

*Nuclear tests throughout history, per country*
Most nuclear powers have not performed a nuclear test in decades. Only North Korea has tested in the 21st century.

The United States and Russia possess 93 percent of the global nuclear warheads arsenal, according to Federation of American Scientists estimates. Both countries each have several thousand “retired” warheads awaiting dismantlement.

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## cnleio

White House: No evidence to support North Korean ‘hydrogen bomb’ claim

TOKYO — World leaders slammed North Korea on Wednesday for carrying out a fourth nuclear test, an explosion that Pyongyang claimed was a powerful hydrogen bomb but whose strength was strongly questioned by international experts and American officials.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said initial data from various monitoring sources were “not consistent with North Korean claims of a successful hydrogen bomb test.”

Nuclear monitors also said the magnitude of the blast suggested an atomic explosion rather than one produced by an exponentially more powerful hydrogen device — potentially more than 1,000 times more destructive than the bomb dropped on the Japanese city of Hiroshima near the end of World War II.

_[A look behind the North’s claim]_

In New York, meanwhile, the U.N. Security Council gathered in an emergency session and strongly denounced the reported test as a “clear threat to international peace and security,” said Elbio Rosselli, the envoy from Uruguay, which currently holds the council presidency.





He said the council would begin work on a new resolution. But Rosselli did not specify possible further U.N. measures against the North, which described the device as an “H-bomb of justice” needed for defense against the United States.

“Regardless of whether this is a hydrogen test or a normal, vanilla device, this is a very serious provocation,” said James Acton, co-director of the nuclear policy program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

North Korea's three previous nuclear tests since 2006 have been met with international condemnation, including resolutions and sanctions from the Security Council. But the response has done nothing to deter Pyongyang.

Despite the widespread skepticism about the North’s assertion, data from the blast will be carefully scrutinized for any hints of technological advances in its nuclear program. Even incremental progress would demonstrate that the North has been able to develop its expertise despite international sanctions and other pressures.

The test also appeared to be part of efforts by the North’s leader, Kim Jong Un, to project strength at a time when the country faces increasing isolation, including growing strains in its critical lifeline with China.

The North’s renegade status has been further underscored by the nuclear deal reached last year between Iran and world powers, including the United States and China. Under the pact, Tehran agreed to limits on its nuclear program in exchange for the easing of international sanctions.




A confirmed North Korean nuclear test would be the 2,055th since 1945 VIEW GRAPHIC 
Over the past decade, Iran has developed capacities to make nuclear material, but its leaders insist they do not seek an atomic weapon.

In contrast, North Korea “is apparently willing to accept international isolation,” said Earnest.

In Vienna, Lassina Zerbo, executive secretary of the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization, said a seismic reading on Wednesday was “slightly down” compared with the level from the North’s last nuclear test in 2013.

A full analysis by the watchdog group could take days as experts look at other data including airborne radioactive isotopes, said Zerbo.

A U.S. dry fuel hydrogen, or thermonuclear, bomb tested in 1954 at Bikini Atoll had a yield of 15 megatons, making it more than 1,000 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb.

In Seoul, South Korean President Park Geun-hye put her military on alert and said North Korea would pay a price for the test, which she called a “grave provocation.” Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe had a similar message, describing it as “a major threat” that Japan “absolutely cannot accept.”

The United States pledged to stand by its allies in the region.

“We do not and will not accept North Korea as a nuclear armed state, and actions such as this latest test only strengthen our resolve,” Secretary of State John F. Kerry said in a statement.

_[North Korea also tests limits of Chinese ties]_

“The answer to North Korea’s threats is more pressure, not less,” said Rep. Edward R. Royce (R-Calif.), chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

But the severity of any international response will depend on the level of political will in China and Russia, both veto-wielding permanent members of the Security Council and the closest thing North Korea has to friends.

After a nuclear test in 2013, the first of Kim’s tenure as North Korea’s leader, China supported expanded sanctions against the country, although it is not clear how strictly Beijing has enforced the restrictions on its neighbor.

Still, China also condemned the test Wednesday.

“Today [North Korea] ignored the general objection from the international community and conducted a nuclear test once again. As to this matter, China strongly opposes,” Hua Chunying, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, told reporters in Beijing.

Although China remains North Korea's biggest patron, relations have been severely strained since Kim took power and detonated a nuclear device a month before Xi Jinping took over as president of China.

Russia, which declared 2015 a “year of friendship” with North Korea, also condemned the detonation and called for international nuclear talks with North Korea to resume.

_[North Korea’s leader: Scary funny]_

Russian President Vladimir Putin, who gave Kim a rare foreign invitation for a visit last year, ordered a full study of data from Russia’s monitoring stations, said the spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.

“The first H-bomb test was successfully conducted,” the official Korean Central News Agency said in a statement issued shortly after a special announcement was broadcast on state-run television. It said it needed the weapon for defense against the United States, which it described as “the chieftain of aggression” and a “gang of cruel robbers.”

“Nothing is more foolish than dropping a hunting gun before herds of ferocious wolves,” the statement said in North Korea's trademark colorful prose.

But there were immediate questions about the claim. Nuclear experts noted that the yield appeared to be similar to North Korea’s three previous atomic tests, rather than the “enormous” yield that would be expected if it had been a thermonuclear explosion.

Jeffrey Lewis, a nuclear expert at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, Calif., said Wednesday’s explosion looked very similar to past tests and was not enormous, suggesting it was not a hydrogen bomb.

Either way, Pyongyang’s action presents a new challenge to the outside world, which has struggled to find ways to end North Korea’s nuclear defiance.

“North Korea’s fourth test — in the context of repeated statements by U.S., Chinese and South Korean leaders — throws down the gauntlet to the international community to go beyond paper resolutions and find a way to impose real costs on North Korea for pursuing this course of action,” said Scott Snyder, a Korea expert at the Council on Foreign Relations.



Map of N.Korea IRBM & ICBM, whatever true or fake missile ...





The Iran announce to the world, they don't have nuke but the White House 'confirm' Iran making nuke ... The N.Korea announce to the world, they have hydrogen bomb but the White House no evidence to support 'nuke claim' ... Is it interesting ?!  Diplomacy vs State Interest

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## LowPost

cnleio said:


> The Iran announce to the world, they don't have nuke but the White House 'confirm' Iran making nuke ... The N.Korea announce to the world, they have hydrogen bomb but the White House no evidence to support 'nuke claim' ... Is it interesting ?!  Diplomacy vs State Interest



Check out this interesting Op-Ed article on SCMP:

*UN condemnation of North Korea’s nuclear test smacks of double standards*
Sherif Elgebeily says the Security Council’s outrage at Pyongyang’s nuclear ambitions would seem more legitimate if wasn’t so biased, given other member states’ actions

Almost two years since the last round of United Nations sanctions, North Korea has tested its first hydrogen bomb. The reaction from the UN Security Council, predictably, has been one of outrage, judging the test to constitute such a flagrant violation of UN sanctions and threat to peace and security that an emergency meeting was convened within three hours.

This frantic appeal to emotion elicits fear within the international community but overlooks one simple fact: Pyongyang has as much of a legal right to nuclear proliferation as any other state.

It is no coincidence that the five permanent members of the Security Council all possess nuclear weapons. Nor should it be overlooked that Japan – a current non-permanent member and convenor of numerous emergency meetings on North Korea – held sufficient weapons-grade plutonium in 2013 for an estimated 5,000 nuclear bombs.

The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) entered into force in 1970 with the aim of total prevention of nuclear weapon acquisition by non-nuclear weapon states. Despite the clear inequality of the subsequent creation of a nuclear-capable “members’ club”, 191 states have so far acceded, including North Korea in 1985. In 2003, when it withdrew from the treaty, it was – legally speaking – exercising its sovereign power.
Indeed, under the principles of international law enshrined in the Vienna Convention on the Laws of Treaties, all states maintain the right to enter into and withdraw from treaties. Nonetheless, in eight resolutions since 2006, the council has taken the unprecedented step of sanctioning Pyongyang for refusing to re-accede to the NPT, deeming its withdrawal a threat to international peace. Thus, the “members’ club” has placed itself above international law.

More troubling is the council’s selective bias. India and Pakistan, both non-signatories to the NPT, not only possess nuclear weapons but tested missile delivery systems last year. Neither has been forced to accede to the NPT, despite open hostility and the fact both tested their nuclear weapons in 1998 – long after the NPT came into force.

It may seem that any expansion of nuclear arsenals poses a threat to peace and security and therefore falls within the remit of the council’s mandate. However, the legitimacy of the council’s action is questionable when one example is isolated while ignoring analogous regional and international threats. If the council truly aspires to a future free of nuclear weaponry, it must cast aside its double standards and broaden its scope.

*Dr Sherif Elgebeily is a part-time lecturer and assistant research officer at the Centre for Comparative and Public Law, University of Hong Kong*

UN condemnation of North Korea’s nuclear test smacks of double standards | South China Morning Post

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## Aepsilons

BEIJING, January 27. /TASS/. Comprehensive strategic cooperation between China and Russia is successfully developing, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said on Wednesday. "China fully agrees with what [Russian Foreign Minister Sergey] Lavrov said about Russian-Chinese relations ate yesterday’s press conference," Hua said.


"Comprehensive strategic partnership between China and Russia is getting a positive impetus for development at the high level," the diplomat added. "Last year the two sides celebrated together the 70th anniversary of Victory in the Second World War, coordinated the initiative of linking the Silk Road Economic Belt with the Eurasian Economic Union, successfully held a year of youth exchanges and effectively coordinated their positions on international issues. 


Considerable progress was reached in the development of the two countries, as well as in ensuring global peace, security and stability," she noted.

"China is ready to work together with Russia on comprehensive implementation of agreements on cooperation reached by the leaders of the two countries," the spokesperson stressed adding that Moscow and Beijing "should make more progress in bilateral relations." 

On Tuesday Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told an annual press conference that the relations between Moscow and Beijing are now at the highest level over the whole history of ties between the two countries.

http://tass.ru/en/politics/852484

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## LowPost

Strong China-Russia ties are the key to Eurasian integration and a stable East Asia. Japan ought to take note of this fact and benefit from it as well.


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## Babu999

*Mediterranean should be used for fishing*


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## Babu999

Very frequent exercises by Russia


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## Super Falcon

Russian uniform looks cool


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## rott

BCCItheGreat said:


> It seems china is afraid of India and Japan relations lol
> And wanted to prove a point here that they got Russia on their side...


Oh wow India and Japan - so powerful. I am shivering already.


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## LowPost

*Goodbye Petrodollar: Russia Accepts Yuan, Is Now China's Biggest Oil Partner*

Russia is now the top crude exporter to China, the largest (or second largest, depending on whom you ask) oil demand growth country in the world.

At the start of the decade, Saudi Arabia enjoyed a 20% share of Chinese crude imports, while Russia was lagging far behind with 7%. Now the Saudis find themselves neck and neck with Moscow for the lead in Chinese market share, with both performing in the 13-16% range. But Russia's share continues to rise, as The Kingdom struggles to maintain a foothold.

Why? Analysts attribute Russia's huge market share growth to its willingness to accept yuan, while Saudi Arabia is still clinging to blood-soaked dollars. As Business Insider notes:

_

Interestingly, part of Russia's success in China has been attributed to *its willingness to accept Chinese yuan denominated currency for its oil*._

This is consistent with earlier forecasts about Russia's market share in China. Bloomberg reported back in July:

_“*Following Russia’s recent acceptance of the renminbi as payments for oil, we expect more record high oil imports ahead to China*,” Gordon Kwan, the Hong Kong-based head of regional oil and gas research at Nomura Holdings Inc., said in an e-mail, referring to the Chinese currency. “If Saudi Arabia wants to recapture its number one ranking, *it needs to accept the renminbi for oil payments instead of just the dollar*.”_

As both the head of the Eurasian Economic Union (and founding member of BRICS), as well as a major energy exporter, Russia is leading the charge against the dollar. And now other nations are following suit: Iran and India announced last month that they intend to settle all outstanding crude oil payments in rupees, as part of a joint strategy to dump the dollar and trade instead in national currencies.

The dollar is slowly losing its privileged place in international transactions. What this means for the United States is anyone's guess.

Goodbye Petrodollar: Russia Accepts Yuan, Is Now China's Biggest Oil Partner
----------------------------------
* Russia steals Saudi's crown as China’s top oil supplier *

Moscow is gaining momentum as the biggest seller of crude oil to China, with Russian crude supplies overtaking those from Saudi Arabia.

According to data from RBC Capital Markets, the Saudi share of Chinese crude imports at the beginning of the decade was about 20 percent, while Russia's was below 7 percent. The situation has changed.

_"Russia is the biggest rival to the Saudis in the single-largest oil demand growth country in the world,"_ Michael Tran, RBC Capital Markets' commodity strategist told Business Insider.

_"The rising tide of Chinese growth has meant that notional volumes for both countries have increased in the years since, but Russia's gains have been outsized,"_ he added.

Tran said Saudi Arabia now finds itself _“neck and neck with Moscow for the lead in Chinese market share, with both jostling in the 13-14percent range, yet the momentum resides with the latter."_

Over the past five years, Saudi Arabia increased exports to China by only about 120,000 barrels a day while Russia managed to increase exports by 550,000 barrels a day in the same period.

Russia managed to overtake the Saudis as the biggest crude exporter to China four times in 2015. In the past five years Saudi Arabia has lost the top spot only six times.

Statistics from China's General Administration of Customs (GAC) showed that in December Beijing bought 4.81 million tons of crude oil from Russia. The volume was up 30 percent compared with the previous year.

Imports from Saudi Arabia dropped 1.2 percent year on year to 4.47 million tons. The fall was blamed on a hike in the official Saudi selling price and the closure of several large Chinese refineries for planned overhauls.

_"Saudi Arabia is losing its crown as its selling prices in Asia haven't been attractive enough,"_ Gao Jian, an analyst at SCI International, a Shandong-based energy consultant, told Bloomberg back in June.

Analysts say that Russia’s readiness to accept Chinese yuan as payment for its oil is one of the key tipping points.

The Russian-Chinese financial cooperation program includes a three-year ruble-yuan currency swap worth more than $20 billion. The swap agreement was signed in 2014 by the central banks of Moscow and Beijing with the aim of boosting trade using national currencies.

In November, the Central Bank of Russia included the Chinese yuan in its reserve currency basket.
https://www.rt.com/business/331139-russia-china-saudi-arabia-oil/
Russia steals Saudi's crown as China’s top oil supplier — RT Business

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## Nan Yang

Arryn said:


> _“*Following Russia’s recent acceptance of the renminbi as payments for oil, we expect more record high oil imports ahead to China*,” Gordon Kwan, the Hong Kong-based head of regional oil and gas research at Nomura Holdings Inc., said in an e-mail, referring to the Chinese currency. “If Saudi Arabia wants to recapture its number one ranking, *it needs to accept the renminbi for oil payments instead of just the dollar*.”_



If that happen, there will be regime change in Saudi Arabia.

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## Aepsilons

Arryn said:


> *Goodbye Petrodollar: Russia Accepts Yuan, Is Now China's Biggest Oil Partner*
> 
> Russia is now the top crude exporter to China, the largest (or second largest, depending on whom you ask) oil demand growth country in the world.
> 
> At the start of the decade, Saudi Arabia enjoyed a 20% share of Chinese crude imports, while Russia was lagging far behind with 7%. Now the Saudis find themselves neck and neck with Moscow for the lead in Chinese market share, with both performing in the 13-16% range. But Russia's share continues to rise, as The Kingdom struggles to maintain a foothold.
> 
> Why? Analysts attribute Russia's huge market share growth to its willingness to accept yuan, while Saudi Arabia is still clinging to blood-soaked dollars. As Business Insider notes:
> 
> _
> 
> Interestingly, part of Russia's success in China has been attributed to *its willingness to accept Chinese yuan denominated currency for its oil*._
> 
> This is consistent with earlier forecasts about Russia's market share in China. Bloomberg reported back in July:
> 
> _“*Following Russia’s recent acceptance of the renminbi as payments for oil, we expect more record high oil imports ahead to China*,” Gordon Kwan, the Hong Kong-based head of regional oil and gas research at Nomura Holdings Inc., said in an e-mail, referring to the Chinese currency. “If Saudi Arabia wants to recapture its number one ranking, *it needs to accept the renminbi for oil payments instead of just the dollar*.”_
> 
> As both the head of the Eurasian Economic Union (and founding member of BRICS), as well as a major energy exporter, Russia is leading the charge against the dollar. And now other nations are following suit: Iran and India announced last month that they intend to settle all outstanding crude oil payments in rupees, as part of a joint strategy to dump the dollar and trade instead in national currencies.
> 
> The dollar is slowly losing its privileged place in international transactions. What this means for the United States is anyone's guess.
> 
> Goodbye Petrodollar: Russia Accepts Yuan, Is Now China's Biggest Oil Partner
> ----------------------------------
> * Russia steals Saudi's crown as China’s top oil supplier *
> 
> Moscow is gaining momentum as the biggest seller of crude oil to China, with Russian crude supplies overtaking those from Saudi Arabia.
> 
> According to data from RBC Capital Markets, the Saudi share of Chinese crude imports at the beginning of the decade was about 20 percent, while Russia's was below 7 percent. The situation has changed.
> 
> _"Russia is the biggest rival to the Saudis in the single-largest oil demand growth country in the world,"_ Michael Tran, RBC Capital Markets' commodity strategist told Business Insider.
> 
> _"The rising tide of Chinese growth has meant that notional volumes for both countries have increased in the years since, but Russia's gains have been outsized,"_ he added.
> 
> Tran said Saudi Arabia now finds itself _“neck and neck with Moscow for the lead in Chinese market share, with both jostling in the 13-14percent range, yet the momentum resides with the latter."_
> 
> Over the past five years, Saudi Arabia increased exports to China by only about 120,000 barrels a day while Russia managed to increase exports by 550,000 barrels a day in the same period.
> 
> Russia managed to overtake the Saudis as the biggest crude exporter to China four times in 2015. In the past five years Saudi Arabia has lost the top spot only six times.
> 
> Statistics from China's General Administration of Customs (GAC) showed that in December Beijing bought 4.81 million tons of crude oil from Russia. The volume was up 30 percent compared with the previous year.
> 
> Imports from Saudi Arabia dropped 1.2 percent year on year to 4.47 million tons. The fall was blamed on a hike in the official Saudi selling price and the closure of several large Chinese refineries for planned overhauls.
> 
> _"Saudi Arabia is losing its crown as its selling prices in Asia haven't been attractive enough,"_ Gao Jian, an analyst at SCI International, a Shandong-based energy consultant, told Bloomberg back in June.
> 
> Analysts say that Russia’s readiness to accept Chinese yuan as payment for its oil is one of the key tipping points.
> 
> The Russian-Chinese financial cooperation program includes a three-year ruble-yuan currency swap worth more than $20 billion. The swap agreement was signed in 2014 by the central banks of Moscow and Beijing with the aim of boosting trade using national currencies.
> 
> In November, the Central Bank of Russia included the Chinese yuan in its reserve currency basket.
> Russia steals Saudi's crown as China’s top oil supplier — RT Business




Impressive development. Ganbare!

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## VCheng

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Impressive development. Ganbare!



Wasn't Mid East oil supposed to get to China via Gawadar? Oh wait......


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## Aepsilons

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Wasn't Mid East oil supposed to get to China via Gawadar? Oh wait......



The Chinese are Wise, my friend. They , as a gargantuan sized nation of over 1.4 Billion, need to secure various vital sources of energy. They have this now through Russia, Iran, OPEC, and also their own vital strategic reserves. I suppose they , like the Americans, realize the importance of sovereignty and energy security paradigm.

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## VCheng

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Chinese are Wise, my friend. They , as a gargantuan sized nation of over 1.4 Billion, need to secure various vital sources of energy. They have this now through Russia, Iran, OPEC, and also their own vital strategic reserves. I suppose they , like the Americans, realize the importance of sovereignty and energy security paradigm.



Of course. That is why I just don't see them getting oil over a 16,000 foot pass that easily given the many alternatives they have open to them.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Arryn said:


> Russia steals Saudi's crown as China’s top oil supplier — RT Business



This is old news...from June of last year...
Russia overtakes Saudi Arabia as largest supplier of oil to China | Business | The Guardian

remember this...from a year and a half ago
Russia signs 30-year gas deal with China - BBC News


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## Aepsilons

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Of course. That is why I just don't see them getting oil over a 16,000 foot pass that easily given the many alternatives they have open to them.



Perhaps we should consider the implications for Gwadar, ultimately, in regards to the development of Pakistan & South Asian context. Gwadar is a major hub and one of three major deep sea ports for Pakistan, its ultimate finalization will mean Pakistan's easier access to the Persian Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz , increase trade as well as helping to facilitate China's reach and grasp into the markets of the contiguous region. Correlate with me , if you may, and observe the importance of Gwadar in China's strategic agenda --- it allows an alternative route to the Straits of Malaccas, which in Beijing's conjecturation , can be pinched by 7th and 3rd Fleet mobilizations in event of a contingency in the South China Seas. This is one of the reasons why China, through an omnidirectional intercollaborative framework with her regional security and economic partners (namely Pakistan a la Gwadar, Thailand a la Kra Canal, and Myanmar-Thailand a la Dawei Seaport Project with Japan) in developing alternative routes of transportation of her merchant fleet. 

Gwadar , as it pertains to Pakistan , is of significant importance as it means Pakistan has greater access to contain and project its power in region, secondly it increases trade potential with region. However, in the greater strategic aspect, THE SINO-PAK ALLIANCE can actually build upon this by synergizing in developing and sustaining Gwadar. To Pakistan, Gwadar means regional reach, to China, Gwadar means one of various points of access in projecting China's reach to the world.

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## VCheng

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Correlate with me , if you may, and observe the importance of Gwadar in China's strategic agenda --- it allows an alternative route to the Straits of Malaccas, which in Beijing's conjecturation , can be pinched by 7th and 3rd Fleet mobilizations in event of a contingency in the South China Seas.



So how does one reconcile the all-season warm seas with a mountainous route, snowbound in winter, over 16,000 feet in elevation, and through an active earthquake zone?


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## Aepsilons

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> So how does one reconcile the all-season warm seas with a mountainous route, snowbound in winter, over 16,000 feet in elevation, and through an active earthquake zone?



Lol. Sir, how am I suppose to react to that rhetorical question?

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## VCheng

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Lol. Sir, how am I suppose to react to that rhetorical question?



By accepting that there will not be much oil going through?


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## Aepsilons

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> By accepting that there will not be much oil going through?



I will not answer self incriminating questions, my dear Sir !



Hamartia Antidote said:


> This is old news...from June of last year...
> Russia overtakes Saudi Arabia as largest supplier of oil to China | Business | The Guardian
> 
> remember this...from a year and a half ago
> Russia signs 30-year gas deal with China - BBC News



This never accounted the Iranian Connection, my dear.

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## Nike

the emerging economy like Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Philippine all of them are net oil importer no need to worry about the market.


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## jhungary

In term of Economy, NOTHING has change. Even if China only buy whatever they buy with RMB, since RMB only have 10.9% of reserve status predicted after they were listed in the basket (Actual % may be less) the problem is that it would not be wise for Russia, which lacking forex themselves as they were eating it up since the sanction started in 2014. To stockpile RMB.

There are 2 reasons

1.) RMB is a volatile currency, as of now, the Chinese Government, not Chinese Federal Bank were in control of the currency, and again, as I said multiple time over and over, the 2 scaling back to back within 6 months alarm the world as that was the currency that is intended to go into the IMF basket in just 8 months. What if the government of China once again down-adjust the value after joining IMF basket? This would basically damage any RMB forex holder, if Russian are holding a large amount of RMB, it would literally get shorted by the Chinese Government at will.

2.) RMB is not international Tradable. Meaning it still require a conversion into USD when both country deal outside of each other. What about Russia-Iran? DO they deal with RMB too? Or China to EU? Would they deal with solely RMB too? The more RMB out there means there are more RMB to converted to USD or Euro. Which actually fuelled the US Currency which literally push the Russian in further debt, unless, of course, they can get whatever they want from China, and China, on the other hand, make a big concession on Russia.


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## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> This never accounted the Iranian Connection, my dear.



They were already buying from Iran even with the sanctions.


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## Aepsilons

Hamartia Antidote said:


> They were already buying from Iran even with the sanctions.



Yes they were, but now , the volume shall increase. Absent of sanctions. Not only China, but also Japan.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Yes they were, but now , the volume shall increase. Absent of sanctions. Not only China, but also Japan.







It's very possible for Japan to shift a higher percent to Iran since they are lopsided towards Saudi.
Of course they could also buy more from Russia.


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## Aepsilons

Hamartia Antidote said:


> It's very possible for Japan to shift a higher percent to Iran since they are lopsided towards Saudi.
> Of course they could also buy more from Russia.



Actually, yes. Since the sanctions were removed, IRAN will be prioritized. Besides, Iran has unique demographic "blessings" that enables their society to accomodate Japanese infrastructure. Saudi Arabia .... lacks that unique internal ability due to their reliance on foreign workers (engineers, physicians, et al). Saudis have always lacked the drive compared to Iranians, who , despite crippling sanctions, have molded and developed a thriving manufacturing and industrial sector.



*"Iran is aiming to boost its crude oil exports to Japan from 110,000 barrels per day during the sanctions to about 300,000, Iran State News Agency reported.*


*“Japan has been Iran’s loyal customer and we are willing to expand economic ties,” the ministry official said."*​
Iran's first post-sanctions oil shipments leave for Japan, China | The Japan Times



Hamartia Antidote said:


> Of course they could also buy more from Russia.



It will be 3 new sources , actually:

Russia
Iran
Papua New Guinea (LNG, Oil)

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## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Papua New Guinea (LNG, Oil)



Interesting. Well less traffic through the SCS.

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## Aepsilons

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Interesting. Well less traffic through the SCS.



Yes, well they have quite the reserves, and with Japanese infrastructure investments, we can also work out a special system in preference for Japan. The Papuans are very cordial and accommodating people. 



Hamartia Antidote said:


> Interesting. Well less traffic through the SCS.



Japan is also currently working a naval base discussion with Papua New Guinea, btw. I hope to see positive developments in coming years.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Nihonjin1051 said:


> Japan is also currently working a naval base discussion with Papua New Guinea, btw. I hope to see positive developments in coming years.



Ah positioning yourself near the alternate route shipping lanes. Good move.


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## Aepsilons

Hamartia Antidote said:


> Ah positioning yourself near the alternate route shipping lanes. Good move.



One has to, i suppose. I suppose it has been in the Japanese Navy's plans to revitalize Japan's strategic reach in the Pacific and Indian Ocean(s).

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## Place Of Space

Hamartia Antidote said:


> It's very possible for Japan to shift a higher percent to Iran since they are lopsided towards Saudi.
> Of course they could also buy more from Russia.



China's crude oil import by source, 2013
Where the U.S. get its oil
Hey, Is this the same thing?

Where China get its oil? 48% of oil China get is from domestic production, in 2009.

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## TaiShang

Nihonjin1051 said:


> The Chinese are Wise, my friend. They , as a gargantuan sized nation of over 1.4 Billion, need to secure various vital sources of energy. They have this now through Russia, Iran, OPEC, and also their own vital strategic reserves. I suppose they , like the Americans, realize the importance of sovereignty and energy security paradigm.



Geopolitical diversification. You cannot put all your faith on one single energy source and route. Besides, Gwadar is an all-around port, not simply an oil-transfer hub. 



Place Of Space said:


> China's crude oil import by source, 2013
> Where the U.S. get its oil
> Hey, Is this the same thing?
> 
> Where China get its oil? 48% of oil China get is from domestic production, in 2009.



Yes, roughly half of China's crude is domestically sourced. But the volume (if not the percentage) of imported oil is ever increasing and won't be stopping anytime soon.

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## Aepsilons

TOKYO, February 3. /TASS/. Japan’s Vice Minister for Foreign Affairs Akitaka Saiki held separate talks on Wednesday with the ambassadors of Russia and China to Japan, during which the parties agreed to call upon North Korea (DPRK) to show restraint, the Japanese Foreign Ministry reported.

On February 2, the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) and the International Maritime Organization (IMO) told TASS that North Korea informed the United Nations about the intention to launch an Earth observation satellite in the period between 8 and 25 February. The ITU received a letter from the DPRK Permanent Mission to the United Nations, informing that North Korea plans to launch an Earth observation satellite, spokesman for the Geneva-based ITU Sanjay Acharya told TASS on Tuesday. The London-based IMO has also confirmed the fact of receiving the DPRK notification. IMO has received information from the DPRK regarding the launch of an Earth observation satellite between 8 and 25 February, Natasha Brown, an IMO spokesperson, told TASS.

North Korean Posts and Telecommunications Minister Kim Kwang Chol informed the Geneva-based ITU via diplomatic channels that the satellite will be of the Kwangmyongsong (Bright Star) type and have a four-year operational life, Japan’s Kyodo news agency reported on Tuesday. No clues as to the timing of the launch were provided, but sources at the London-based International Maritime Organization said the IMO was informed by North Korea that an earth observation satellite launch would be conducted between February 8 and 25.



TASS: World - Japan, China, Russia agree to urge DPRK to show restraint — Japanese Foreign Ministry

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## TaiShang

*The newly founded Russian-Chinese joint educational institution, established on the basis of Russia's top Lomonosov Moscow State University (MSU), may accept up to 250 students when it opens in September 2016, MSU Vice-Rector Sergei Shahrai told Sputnik.*




© Sputnik/ Anton Denisov

Russia, China to Sign International University Deal Monday

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — In 2014, Russia and China pledged to open a joint university, with MSU to open a branch *in China's rapidly developing Shenzhen free economic zone*.


"The first intake is expected to range from 100 to 250 students for all course programs. The university does not have any state-commissioned study places, the training will be carried out on a fee-paying basis. It will cost Chinese nationals 20,000 — 30,000 yuan [$2,000 — $4,600] per year, for foreign nationals — up to 70,000 yuan a year," Shahrai said.

He pointed out that the university has been classified in the highest category of educational institutions and therefore prospective students will need to perform well in state exams and pass a test on the Russian language as an academic subject as well as an entrance interview.

There are plans for 12 study programs to be offered at the university, but for the first academic year, which is according to Shahrai can be seen as an "expexperimental" one, there will be only five to choose from, namely ecology and natural resources, Russian philology, applied mathematics, the physics and chemistry of modern materials and international taxation and customs regulation.

Students will be able to receive two internationally recognized science degrees at a Bachelor's and Master's level.



Read more: http://sputniknews.com/society/20160209/1034470107/university-joint-students-comment.html#ixzz406jGuRLq

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## ito

India China joint university will be great idea, giving that there is huge number of students coming from both countries pursuing education outside their respective countries .

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## onebyone

Once again, the South China Sea is back in the news, and once again, it’s for all the wrong reasons.

The People’s Republic of China seems to have one crystal-clear objective: to dominate this important body of water to such an extent that they will be able to enforce what they call their “nine-dash-line” claim that incorporates almost the entire sea.
What comes after that is unclear. For example, would China stop any and all foreign military vessels from transiting, by force if necessary? Would Beijing kick out all so-called foreign fishing vessels? How far do Chinese claims of so-called “indisputable sovereignty” go? Know this—if trends continue, in the next few years, we might just find out.

But in all honesty, we are getting ahead of ourselves just a wee bit. In fact, there are several important steps that Beijing will need to follow before it can dominate this important body of water—and much of it involves control of the skies above. 

Indeed, without control of the air domain, China can’t dominant the seas and islands below. And while the People’s Liberation Army Air Force has certainly made big strides over the last twenty years, patrolling such a large area would be a challenge—until possibly now.

Thanks to Beijing’s recent creation of new islands in the South China Sea, along with three new large airfields, China is developing the bases it needs to patrol the skies above to enforce its claims.

What comes next is what really matters: which planes would Beijing place on those airfields? One very distinct possibility is one of the world’s best: Russia’s Su-35 fighter. China just closed a deal to acquire twenty-four of the fighters, and while even basing all of them in the South China Sea might not be enough to enforce a likely future Air-Defense Identification Zone, the advanced Russian jet would give Beijing a big advantage in its quest to dominate the area. And with the first four being delivered this year, Washington and its allies have much to ponder. As Peter Wood pointed out in 2013 for China Brief:

“An important improvement of the Su-35 over the [Chinese] Su-27/J-11B is the ability to carry external fuel tanks, which would be a major factor limiting the Su-27, which does not have aerial refueling capability. . . This is in addition to a 20% increase in fuel capacity over the Su-27 and air refueling capability. This later capability is another important part of China’s strategy of increasing loiter times and distances. “Loiter time” is the amount of time an aircraft can spend in the vicinity of a target, as opposed to reaching the area and returning to base. Generally there are three ways to increase loiter time. Smaller, slower aircraft like the U.S.’s Predator or Global Hawk drones can stay aloft for many hours at a time due to their long wings and lack of a pilot. The other two options are larger fuel tanks or refueling capability. China’s nascent aerial refueling program is not yet fully proven and does not currently involve any naval planes, and is estimated at becoming operationally effective between 2015-2020. . .”

Wood continues on, concluding his work by stating:

“While the Su-35’s technologies will benefit Chinese aviation, its larger contribution lies in enforcement and deterrence in the South China Sea. China’s currently deployed forces in the South China Sea and contested areas could already do significant damage to possible adversaries like the Philippines. Without a combat-capable Air Force and Naval forces largely composed of aging/1960s-era former U.S. coast guard cutters, the Philippines cannot effectively challenge China’s territorial claims. The Sukhoi jets’ larger fuel capacity and in-flight refueling capability mean that Chinese jets could remain on station for longer, enforcing their claims by conducting patrols and interceptions in a more consistent way. Going forward, the combination of the Su-35, China’s extant shorter range fighters, advanced surface-to-air missiles, and long range ballistic and cruise missiles could act as a, strength-in-depth, multi-layered capabilities to protect China’s claims and make others less eager to intervene if China chose to pursue conflict with its neighbors.”

While the above work by Wood is certainly impressive—and a little frightening—it is a little dated, and in this case, actually reinforces much of his claims concerning the Su-35.

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## onebyone

As the above was written _before_ China’s extensive reclamation projects in the South China Sea, Wood was clearly discussing basing these planes in mainland China as close to the coast as possible. Clearly basing these planes in Beijing’s newly created airfields, with likely more airstrips to come, will magnify dramatically the impact the Su-35 would have on China enforcing its claims in the South China Sea. And if Beijing reverse-engineers them—as they have done in the past with other advanced Russian fighters—the South China Sea could be a very different place than it is today.
_Harry Kazianis (_@grecianformula_) is the former Executive Editor of The National Interest. Kazianis presently serves as Senior Fellow (non-resident) for Defense Policy at the_Center for the National Interest_ as well as Fellow for National Security Affairs at_The Potomac Foundation_. He is the editor and co-author of the Center for the National Interest report_Tackling Asia’s Greatest Challenges_: A U.S.-Japan-Vietnam Trilateral Report. All opinions are his own._
_
Coming to the South China Sea: Russia's Lethal Su-35 Fighter? | The National Interest Blog_


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## xunzi

Whether Su35 will deploy or not, we will ensure our territorial rights are to be respect in the SCS.

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## dichoi

*Deputy Defence Minister greets Russian senior officer*
VNA FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2016 - 10:10:12 

.




Deputy Defence Minister Nguyen Chi Vinh and Kshimovskiy Alexander at the reception (Source: Cổng TTĐT Bộ Quốc phòng Việt Nam
*
Hanoi (VNA)* – Deputy Defence Minister Nguyen Chi Vinh has affirmed that the Vietnam-Russia defence cooperation has reaped fruits over recent years.

He made the remarks at a reception in Hanoi on February 18 for the visiting Deputy Chief of the Main Directorate of International Military Cooperation of the Russian Defence Ministry Kshimovskiy Alexander.

Vinh highlighted that these outcomes of the bilateral cooperation have significantly contribute to promoting peace and stability in the region and the world.

The host expressed his hope that the upcoming Defence Policy Dialogue between the two countries will help further bolster their defence ties.

For his part, Kshimovskiy hoped defence links between the two sides will be stronger and more effective in the future.-VNA


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## TaiShang

*Political adviser: THAAD is intended to target China and Russia*
By He Shan
March 6, 2016



















Qian Lihua, a member of the 12th National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) and former director-general of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Ministry of National Defense. [Photo by He Shan, China.org.cn]


Wednesday, the ROK and the United States set up a joint working team to discuss the agenda of deploying a missile defense system in the Korean Peninsula, sparking grave concern and protests from China.

The Terminal High Altitude Area Defense System (THAAD), developed by the United States, is claimed to neutralize missile threats from the DPRK, but many believe it will inevitably target China and Russia, if the radar deployed by the United States is used to view China's military operations.

"Once it is deployed, it will compromise the strategic security balance in East Asia and jeopardize China's security," said Qian Lihua, a member of the 12th National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) and former director-general of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Ministry of National Defense.

He said, "In a sense, THAAD is intended to target China and Russia and is a part of America's global missile defense system."

*He explained that at a range of up to 3,000 km (1,800 miles), THAAD's radar could penetrate into China and even further into Russia, far beyond the defense needs of the ROK.*

Recently, the United States has accused China more than once of "militarizing" the South China Sea, but at the same time, it has boosted its military presence in the area surrounding China and sent military ships and planes to make the situation worse.

Qian sees the deployment of THAAD as a further boost to the U.S. military presence on the Korean Peninsula.

Made by the U.S. Army, THAAD is designed to smash short, medium and intermediate ballistic missiles.

"If the United States deploys the system, it will breach international treaties and violate its safety promises made to some countries," said Qian.

At the regular press conference on March 4, Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hong Lei said that China is firmly opposed to the deployment of the THAAD system on the Korean Peninsula and urged relevant parties to act cautiously.

"No harm shall be done to China's strategic security interests," the spokesperson said.

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## 21stCentury

Well duh, only fools would think otherwise. That is why China is making moves in East and South China Sea. No amount of American freedom of navigation buIIshit propaganda will work against China.

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## Echo_419

TaiShang said:


> *Political adviser: THAAD is intended to target China and Russia*
> By He Shan
> March 6, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Qian Lihua, a member of the 12th National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) and former director-general of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Ministry of National Defense. [Photo by He Shan, China.org.cn]
> 
> 
> Wednesday, the ROK and the United States set up a joint working team to discuss the agenda of deploying a missile defense system in the Korean Peninsula, sparking grave concern and protests from China.
> 
> The Terminal High Altitude Area Defense System (THAAD), developed by the United States, is claimed to neutralize missile threats from the DPRK, but many believe it will inevitably target China and Russia, if the radar deployed by the United States is used to view China's military operations.
> 
> "Once it is deployed, it will compromise the strategic security balance in East Asia and jeopardize China's security," said Qian Lihua, a member of the 12th National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) and former director-general of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Ministry of National Defense.
> 
> He said, "In a sense, THAAD is intended to target China and Russia and is a part of America's global missile defense system."
> 
> *He explained that at a range of up to 3,000 km (1,800 miles), THAAD's radar could penetrate into China and even further into Russia, far beyond the defense needs of the ROK.*
> 
> Recently, the United States has accused China more than once of "militarizing" the South China Sea, but at the same time, it has boosted its military presence in the area surrounding China and sent military ships and planes to make the situation worse.
> 
> Qian sees the deployment of THAAD as a further boost to the U.S. military presence on the Korean Peninsula.
> 
> Made by the U.S. Army, THAAD is designed to smash short, medium and intermediate ballistic missiles.
> 
> "If the United States deploys the system, it will breach international treaties and violate its safety promises made to some countries," said Qian.
> 
> At the regular press conference on March 4, Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hong Lei said that China is firmly opposed to the deployment of the THAAD system on the Korean Peninsula and urged relevant parties to act cautiously.
> 
> "No harm shall be done to China's strategic security interests," the spokesperson said.



Captian obvious strikes again

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## Nike

Lol, this person doesnt know if since the beginning whole of China is under firing range of minuteman missile system


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## xunzi

madokafc said:


> Lol, this person doesnt know if since the beginning whole of China is under firing range of minuteman missile system


What a moronic comment. In the game of strategic balance, it implies your enemy can strike you but you have limitation in striking them back. This give the enemy more leverage in international competition ranging from political, military, and even economically. You really think you can outsmart our strategic planner, do you?

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## TaiShang

*China to Invest More in Russia's Far East*
2016-03-07

China is encouraging more enterprises to invest in agriculture in Russia's Far East, Minister of Agriculture Han Changfu said on Monday.

*Investment of enterprises from Heilongjiang Province, which borders Russia, has yielded handsome returns, Han said at a press conference on the sidelines of the national legislature annual session.*

The minister said he expects more Sino-Russo cooperation in agricultural research and development as well as professional training.

China and Russia have had a solid foundation to expand agricultural cooperation, a significant aspect of bilateral ties, Han said.

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## yantong1980

Poor South Korea, they didn't know what they just awaken. SK should know this not Korean peninsula matter anymore, but cover North East Asia and entire Asia. Last Joint drill by SK and uncle Sam rising the tension.

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## Pangu

*WhatRoleWillRussiaPlayintheUS-ChineseSouthChinaSeaDrama?*

*The US-Chinese standoff in the South China Sea is heating up, with Washington dispatching a small armada to the area following reports that Beijing had reinforced a key island with fighters and air defenses. Much has been said and written about the dispute, with Russian analysts left pondering: if push comes to shove, what will Russia's role be?*





© AP PHOTO/ BULLIT MARQUEZ
Eliciting Trouble: US Navy Dispatched Several Ships to South China Sea

On Thursday, the Navy Times reported that the US had dispatched an aircraft carrier, the USS John C. Stennis, two destroyers and two cruisers from the US's 7th Fleet to the South China Sea, ostensibly in response to reports that China had sent fighter jets to Woody Island, the largest of the disputed Paracel Islands in the South China Sea.

China's response did not take long in coming. On Friday, Fu Ying, spokeswoman for the National People's Congress (China's legislature), commented by suggesting that this US "show of force" "arouses a feeling of disgust among the Chinese people," adding that Washington's "actions seem to be aimed at agitating tensions."

The territorial dispute surrounding islands in the South China Sea has gone on for decades, and includes the Paracels, the Spratlys, and Scarborough Shoal. The groups of islands are contested by China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei. The US, for its part, cannot directly contest China's claims with sovereignty counterclaims, but has involved itself in the dispute under the guise of protecting its allies.





© PHOTO: WIKIPEDIA/VOICE OF AMERICA
South China Sea claims map

Last month, the United States accused China of militarizing the South China Sea by placing anti-aircraft missile systems, advanced radar and jet fighters on Woody Island, thereby ostensibly expanding Beijing's control of sea territories through which nearly a third of global trade passes. With Washington suggesting that the move would "raise further tensions in the region," the Chinese Foreign Ministry responded by stressing that Beijing has every right to maintain defensive military systems within its own territory.





© AFP 2016/ POOL / RITCHIE B. TONGO
Media Smear Campaign? China Claps Back at Reports of Sending Fighter Jets to Disputed Islands

Commenting on the ongoing dispute in an article for independent Russian newspaper Svobodnaya Pressa, columnist Andrei Ivanov suggested that amid the rising tensions between Washington and Beijing, one thing is obvious: 

"That the dispute between the two great powers is not just over the islands. China is fighting for global leadership, something which the US will not let go of so easily. After all, so long as Washington is recognized as the world's hegemonic power, US debt obligations can be exchanged for the fruits of the labor of countries all across the world."

"Interestingly," Ivanov noted, "at the same press conference where Fu Ying spoke of US aggression, the spokeswoman of the National Legislature also had many warm words to say about Russia." 

At the conference, Fu emphasized that "Chinese-Russian relations are at their best stage in history," adding that their further "development will be sound as they meet our mutual interests." Beijing and Moscow, she noted, do not have any serious disputes between them, "do not exert pressure on each other," and "can fully concentrate on discussing cooperation, as well as the exchange of ideas."

The spokeswoman's words, Ivanov suggested, indicate that "it's possible that China is engaging in a more assertive policy in the Pacific precisely because it counts on the support of our country."






© SPUTNIK/ VITALIY ANKOV
Russian-Chinese naval drill "Naval Interaction–2015", Vladivostok, August 2015. The exercises constituted the largest joint maritime exercises in the two countries' history.

*The Laws of Geopolitics*

Asked to comment on the situation in the South China Sea, Mikhail Alexandrov, the head expert at the Center for Military and Political Studies at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, told Svobodnaya Pressa that the processes taking place in the region are taking place according to the laws of geopolitics.





© FLICKR/ MARINES
‘Hostile Military Force’: Pentagon to Ramp Up Role in Nordic War Games

"A reconfiguration of forces is taking place around the world. The strength of power centers independent from the West, among them Russia, China, India, Iran and Brazil, is growing. And the United States can no longer control the entire planet. Once they get involved in some kind of confrontation with any one power center, the others take the opportunity to spread their influence."

Subsequently, the analyst noted, "the Chinese took full advantage of the conflict between Russia and the West. American resources were diverted to the European direction, and to Syria, Turkey and Ukraine. There was even talk of the possibility of war in Europe. The Americans escalated the situation around the Baltic. [Subsequently] they overlooked the fact that China might be strengthened as a result."

From the strategic point of view, Alexandrov noted, China's moves "are absolutely correct. Beijing saw that US resources were concentrated elsewhere, and placed aircraft and air defense systems in the South China Sea. The US realized this, too late, and now attempting to remedy the situation will be difficult."

*US Can No Longer Count on Kicking China Out of the Region*

"What can the US do? Provoke a confrontation? Any collision with the Chinese would not be a cakewalk for the Americans. China now has enough strength to repel the attack of two or three [carrier-based US] aviation groups. Moscow could give the Chinese sea-based cruise missiles. So a US victory in a sea battle cannot be assured. And if the Americans lose, or even tie, US hegemony around the world would collapse like a house of cards. Therefore, Washington is taking a serious risk, and they know it."

China, in the analyst's words, has yet to achieve military parity with the Western alliance, "but as far as a naval battle on its shores goes, China can win. Moreover, the Chinese military has been equipped with new submarines, new aircraft, and intermediate-range ballistic missiles to attack carrier groups. In other words, China is well armed for this kind of battle."






© FLICKR/ U.S. PACIFIC FLEET
More Kids on the Block? US, Japan and India to Hold Exercises Near S China Sea

"Naturally, China is concerned with US actions, including the attempt to control shipping in the South China and East China Seas, and to prevent the reunification of the Chinese mainland with Taiwan." Therefore, "China's task is to demonstrate such a level of strength that the Americans will not be able to creep into the region, and Beijing is steadily doing so."

Effectively, Alexandrov suggested, "the US will need to start an arms race in the region, and simultaneously in Europe and the Persian Gulf as well. I do not believe that the US or even the whole West will be able to do so – the economic situation is too unfavorable."

*'Washington's Ammunition Doesn't Match Its Ambitions'*

Asked whether, facing the situation that they do, Washington might not do better to simply leave the Asian-Pacific region quietly, to save face, the analyst noted that experience has shown that is unlikely. 

"We had long proposed to the Americans that they leave the post-Soviet space alone. We have long said 'leave us alone in the [former Soviet] space, and we will not bother you elsewhere around the world.' But Washington cannot agree to this: they want to be present all over the world. Except their ammunition does not match their ambitions."

"In principle, it never did. It's just that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia mistakenly hoped, for a long time, to integrate into the West; the US, subsequently, saw themselves as an unchallenged leader. The illusion of omnipotence was born. It is an illusion in which Washington continues to live, and this is very dangerous, because it provokes the threat of a major war. And it is necessary to explain this danger to the Americans using economic, political and military means. Washington needs to understand that it is not all-powerful."






© AFP 2016/ ROSS D. FRANKLIN
McCain: US Should Consider Sanctioning Chinese Companies

With his interviewer recalling that China depends on the US as its main trade partner, Alexandrov countered by emphasizing that in fact that really, "it's not yet clear who depends on whom more…If China were to completely break trade relations with the US, as the US did with Russia, an alternative financial system, without the West's participation, would be formed, [given that] tremendous manufacturing capacities have been formed in the Asia-Pacific region…A complete victory over China is one thing. But just severing relations with China is not something the US will do; and it will not introduce sanctions."

"Now, we will see the maneuvering of forces. China will continue to increase its power in the region. America will need to show that it is still the world's most powerful sea power. The arms race will continue until one party runs out of steam –most likely, that will be the US. They have an enormous budget deficit, and a colossal public debt. And Washington will not be able to shoulder the burden if it has to engage in an arms race against Russia as well."

Asked what role, if any, Moscow might play in the ongoing US-Chinese drama, the analyst emphasized that China is already receiving Russian support. "Russia is the only country selling modern weapons technology to the Chinese. Were it not for Russian assistance, China would be lagging significantly behind the West's aircraft and cruise missiles."

Furthermore, "Russia and China have a treaty of friendship and cooperation, in which there is an article on consultations in the case of a threat to one country. And in the case of conflict with the United States, Russia may provide assistance to China; the treaty allows for such an eventuality."






© SPUTNIK/ VITALIY ANKOV
Russian and Chinese servicemen shake hands during the Russian-Chinese drill "Naval Interaction-2015" at the Klerk testing grounds in Russia's Primorye Territory.

*M is for Multipolar*

Ultimately, Alexandrov emphasized, "our goal is to create a polycentric system – that is, to push the US out of its position as global hegemon. Today, the US can dictate its terms and impose its decisions on others. In a multipolar world, it is possible to form tactical alliances in order to counter other players. That is, we are talking about a system promoting the balance of power –one that allows countries to maneuver, and does not allow any one power to hold a 'controlling stake' in world affairs."

"When this polycentric system is created, we will be able to judge whether continued cooperation with China is beneficial for Russia. At the current stage, it is advantageous."

Read more: What Role Will Russia Play in the US-Chinese South China Sea Drama?

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## Desertfalcon

In answer to the OP's question: *None.* 

Russia has little history and even less interests in the SCS. And despite Russian/Chinese "friendliness", what little role Russia might play, will be in supplying her historic ally India with weapons and logistical support, possibly some diplomatic support if India request it.

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## Ankit Kumar

Desertfalcon said:


> In answer to the OP's question: *None.*
> 
> Russia has little history and even less interests in the SCS. And despite Russian/Chinese "friendliness", what little role Russia might play, will be in supplying her historic ally India with weapons and logistical support, possibly some diplomatic support if India request it.



Ok, now this is confusing. Why will India ask Russia for support in SCS ?? 

We have nothing to do in SCS. We know that we have to fight our wars ourselves, no need to pick sides in others matters. 

But Russia will play a role by supplying more weapons to Vietnam and China both.


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## Desertfalcon

Ankit Kumar said:


> Ok, now this is confusing. Why will India ask Russia for support in SCS ??
> 
> We have nothing to do in SCS. We know that we have to fight our wars ourselves, no need to pick sides in others matters.


Because India might if God forbid, the day comes that China and India go to war, again. They did once and China is expanding not only in the SCS, but in the Indian Ocean. Russia also already has a history of supporting India, materially and diplomatically, when India has been at war with Pakistan, China's ally. It's pretty straight forward reasoning. It's not what I think _will_ happen. It's just what I think would play out, if it _did_ happen.



> But Russia will play a role by supplying more weapons to Vietnam and China both.


In the event of a conflict, those two countries will be on completely different sides so no, Russia will not supply both. Russia already supplies Vietnam but much less so, China. Just as Russia already has a very close defence relationship with India, but much less so with China.


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## Pangu

Hang on there, this article by the Russians is about the SCS, don't deflect the topic to India & the India Ocean, sheesh... 

As for India's role in the SCS, it is yet to be determined what role or even whose side India will take. I would have no doubt that India will use SCS to counter play our influence in Pakistan CPEC & our lingering border issue. But to say that Sino-India war will erupt at your desire is just plain silly. 

You are trying way too @*Desertfalcon*, take a chill pill.

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## yoshi.oda

@Pangu tomodachi obvious Russia can into North Pacific can divert American 7 fleet . Japan is random variable. American cannot know what we do till we do it. Can just sit back and eat popcorn



Pangu said:


> Hang on there, this article by the Russians is about the SCS, don't deflect the topic to India & the India Ocean, sheesh...
> 
> As for India's role in the SCS, it is yet to be determined what role or even whose side India will take. I would have no doubt that India will use SCS to counter play our influence in Pakistan CPEC & our lingering border issue. But to say that Sino-India war will erupt at your desire is just plain silly.
> 
> You are trying way too @*Desertfalcon*, take a chill pill.



American prediction ha you know

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## jammersat

the role of a bystander


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## Pangu

yoshi.oda said:


> @Pangu tomodachi obvious Russia can into North Pacific can divert American 7 fleet . Japan is random variable. American cannot know what we do till we do it. Can just sit back and eat popcorn
> 
> 
> 
> American prediction ha you know



Haha, yes my friend. Time will come when the cheery tree will blossom again, smiling on both China & Japan. Patience is a virtue.

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## yoshi.oda

jammersat said:


> the role of a bystander



No . Russia want to increase their power here. Russia Pacific Fleet increasing in power. Their obj: decrease American power here. Russia can befriend Japan Korea more



Pangu said:


> Haha, yes my friend. Time will come when the cheery tree will blossom again, smiling on both China & Japan. Patience is a virtue.



I want gaijin out of my country

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## jammersat

yoshi.oda said:


> No . Russia want to increase their power here. Russia Pacific Fleet increasing in power. Their obj: decrease American power here. Russia can befriend Japan Korea more
> 
> 
> 
> I want gaijin out of my country



i don't think so , russia has attracted enough attention with syria and Ukraine , , they rather not make more fuzz about themselves


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## yoshi.oda

jammersat said:


> i don't think so , russia has attracted enough attention with syria and Ukraine , , they rather not make more fuzz about themselves



Look at Russian Far East build up.


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## Ankit Kumar

Pangu said:


> Hang on there, this article by the Russians is about the SCS, don't deflect the topic to India & the India Ocean, sheesh...
> 
> As for India's role in the SCS, it ist to be determined what role or even whose side India will take. I would have no doubt that India will use SCS to counter play our influence in Pakistan CPEC & our lingering border issue. But to say that Sino-India war will erupt at your desire is just plain silly.
> 
> You are trying way too @*Desertfalcon*, take a chill pill.



No , that too is going too far. 

At best India is only for oil in SCS, it doesn't matter much if it gets that with Vietnam or with China. 

And believe me when I say it, there never was so much goodwill and desire, to mend ties with China than ever it was. Yes the border issue and river issue will take its time. 

But as economy increase and the bilateral trade, so the conflicts will be resolved. 



Desertfalcon said:


> Because India might if God forbid, the day comes that China and India go to war, again. They did once and China is expanding not only in the SCS, but in the Indian Ocean. Russia also already has a history of supporting India, materially and diplomatically, when India has been at war with Pakistan, China's ally. It's pretty straight forward reasoning. It's not what I think _will_ happen. It's just what I think would play out, if it _did_ happen.
> 
> 
> In the event of a conflict, those two countries will be on completely different sides so no, Russia will not supply both. Russia already supplies Vietnam but much less so, China. Just as Russia already has a very close defence relationship with India, but much less so with China.



We know one thing, that no one else will fight wars for us. And we are working for it. 

Chinese cooperation with Pakistan is not a concern, but Chinese cooperation with Pakistan in Kashmir is our problem. 

The bigger problem is American cooperation with Pakistan. But that doesn't call for preparing 10,000km ICBMs. 

As for the point, you brought Russian Support to India on SCS. I only meant that we will do nothing in SCS, so help is not required.

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## rott

Ankit Kumar said:


> No , that too is going too far.
> 
> At best India is only for oil in SCS, it doesn't matter much if it gets that with Vietnam or with China.
> 
> And believe me when I say it, there never was so much goodwill and desire, to mend ties with China than ever it was. Yes the border issue and river issue will take its time.
> 
> But as economy increase and the bilateral trade, so the conflicts will be resolved.
> 
> 
> 
> We know one thing, that no one else will fight wars for us. And we are working for it.
> 
> Chinese cooperation with Pakistan is not a concern, but Chinese cooperation with Pakistan in Kashmir is our problem.
> 
> The bigger problem is American cooperation with Pakistan. But that doesn't call for preparing 10,000km ICBMs.
> 
> As for the point, you brought Russian Support to India on SCS. I only meant that we will do nothing in SCS, so help is not required.


One of the wisest Indian members I've ever encountered on PDF. 
Nice meeting you, bro!

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## 1R0N_M4N_XL

i have never heard of russia official stance, all i know is russia somewhat supports their former ally vietnam. 

there's no signs that russia is willing to have military alliance with china.. 

most likely russia will take advantage of the situation.. if china fall's i will bet russia will rush in and take as much territory as much as possible.


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## Viva_Viet

1R0N_M4N_XL said:


> i have never heard of russia official stance, all i know is russia somewhat supports their former ally vietnam.
> 
> there's no signs that russia is willing to have military alliance with china..
> 
> most likely russia will take advantage of the situation.. if china fall's i will bet russia will rush in and take as much territory as much as possible.


True, Russia still prefer Soviet's strategy: support Vietnam to contain China. If CN fall,then Beijing will belong to Russia


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## 1R0N_M4N_XL

Viva_Viet said:


> True, Russia still prefer Soviet's strategy: support Vietnam to contain China. If CN fall,then Beijing will belong to Russia



correct i read an article from russian generals that they predict that russia & china will have border disputes in future, once china gets stronger or china no longer need russian military tech.


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## Viva_Viet

1R0N_M4N_XL said:


> correct i read an article from russian generals that they predict that russia & china will have border disputes in future, once china gets stronger or china no longer need russian military tech.


Russia bear is not smart at running bussiness, so he will not be the threat to US economy like CN. I think that once day, USA will even shake hand wt Russia to divide CN again,just like in Eight alliance preriod


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## rott

Viva_Viet said:


> True, Russia still prefer Soviet's strategy: support Vietnam to contain China. If CN fall,then Beijing will belong to Russia


Sheesh.... Kids these days!

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## bbccdd1470

yoshi.oda said:


> I want gaijin out of my country


This is exactly what Nihonjin1050 talking about. The American will never understand the mind of Japanese, in which they are overconfident that the Japanese will be forever subordinated to them. Look at its history, the Japanese are pride people and every countries that tried to vassalize them were failed at the end, that including my country.

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## omega supremme

Russia shall do nothing when you see your enemies making a mistake the best thing to do is to remain silent let your enemy get weaker and that is what Russia is doing. They will only get benefits from China-America war


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## Zero_wing

rott said:


> Says the one with two bananas in each hand and an all out anti-china bashing Filipina.



Says the one who knows nothing nice try bigot


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## TaiShang

*Russia Chopper Tech Heading to China*
2016-03-09







A new heavy helicopter model is manufactured by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China. [Photo: china.com]

*China and Russia have reached consensus on technologies to be used in the joint development of heavy-lift helicopters.*

Chairman of the AVIC Helicopter Company, Yu Feng, says the two countries held the *seventh round of negotiations* to cooperate in developing heavy lift choppers.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China signed a framework agreement with Russian Helicopters last May.

The project is going forward as planned.

*Heavy helicopter refers to those with a take-off weight of over 20 tons.*

The cooperation will fill a blank in China's helicopter industry.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia support resumption of Six-Party Talks *




Visiting Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi (3rd R) holds talks with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov (2nd L) in Moscow, Russia, on March 11, 2016. [Xinhua]


Both China and Russia pursue the denuclearization on the Korean peninsula, and support the resumption of Six-Party Talks with commitment to making new efforts to that end, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said here Friday.

"The United Nations Security Council Resolution 2270 should be fully implemented, which would, on the one hand, block further development of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea's (DPRK) nuclear programs, *and on the other, should not have impact on its people and humanitarian need,"* Wang said at a press conference after meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov.

*Actions should be avoided to intensify tensions on the Korean Peninsula,* and efforts should be made to resume the Six-Party Talks, which are important contents in the resolution and also commitments of all the members of the United Nations Security Council, Wang noted.

There should be no alternative to the UN Security Council resolution, said Wang, adding that *any unilateral sanctions beyond the resolution*, since without authorization from the UN Security Council and short of international consensus, should be cautiously considered, while all parties involved should exercise restraint to prevent the situation from spinning out of control.

Wang stressed that China's proposal of promoting peace mechanism alongside the denuclearization process indicates its responsible position of not giving up negotiations, which is also part of the implementation of the resolution.

"Any sides with different ideas should speak out their own suggestions, and China is ready to listen to voices from other sides in working out the detailed and practical schemes concerning the nuclear issue," said Wang.

Commenting on the possible deployment of the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD), a U.S. Army anti-ballistic missile system, in South Korea, *the two foreign ministers shared the opinion* that it is far beyond the defense needs in the region. They believed that the deployment of THAAD would sabotage regional strategic balance and lead to an arms race.

The Six-Party Talks, involving China, the DPRK, the United States, the Republic of Korea, Russia and Japan, was designed to facilitate a peaceful solution to nuclear non-proliferation on the Korean Peninsula.

The talks were suspended in late 2008.

The UN Security Council unanimously adopted resolution 2270 on the DPRK on March 2 that, in reality, cuts off the country from any means to develop its nuclear and missile programs.

@Nihonjin1051 , @Tiqiu, @Kiss_of_the_Dragon _et al_.

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## Desertfalcon

The problem is that the UN and any outside parties, are virtually powerless over what North Korea does. NK is the most isolated state in the world. There is no real outside leverage against her that is effective.


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## TaiShang

Forces for good...

*China, Russia urge NK to return to talks*
Source: Reuters Published: 2016-3-12 0:48:54

* Pyongyang’s nuclear ambitions deemed unacceptable *

China and Russia said on Friday North Korea's nuclear ambitions were unacceptable, urging Pyongyang to resume talks over its nuclear weapons program and heed a UN Security Council resolution banning ballistic missile tests.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi stepped up pressure on Pyongyang after holding talks in Moscow a day after North Korea defied the UN by firing two short-range ballistic missiles into the sea.

"We do not recognize the nuclear status of the DPRK," Wang told a news briefing via a translator, using the official acronym for North Korea.

The North should "fully and comprehensively" implement the UN resolution, Wang said. "At the same time, we will not spare efforts to return to the Six-Party Talks," he noted.

Pyongyang reportedly has a large stockpile of short-range missiles and is developing long-range and intercontinental missiles.

Earlier on Friday, North Korea's official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) reported that North Korean leader Kim Jong-un had watched a ballistic missile launch test and ordered the country to improve its nuclear attack capability by conducting more tests.

"Dear comrade Kim Jong-un said work ... must be strengthened to improve nuclear attack capability and issued combat tasks to continue nuclear explosion tests to assess the power of newly developed nuclear warheads and tests to improve nuclear attack capability," KCNA said.

*Commenting on the North's growing nuclear ambitions, Wang said the latest UN resolution banning its nuclear tests must be "implemented point by point."

Lavrov said Moscow deemed Pyongyang's behavior "irresponsible."*

"We believe that the world community's firm reaction will be interpreted by Pyongyang as a signal that there should be no such escapades in future," said Lavrov. "It should be clear in Pyongyang that no one is going to exonerate the DPRK for such escapades," he said, referring to missile tests.

*Both Wang and Lavrov also hit out at US plans to deploy the THAAD anti-missile system in South Korea.

"The deployment of this US missile system far exceeds the actual defense needs of the [Korean] peninsula ... and will harm the strategic balance of power in the region, possibly leading to a new arms race," said Wang.*

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## TaiShang

*Europe Bye Bye: China Overtakes Germany as Russia's Largest Oil Customer*

The Russian-Chinese oil partnership is shaping to be the most important of such relationships in the world

*It only makes sense.* We've previously reported that *Russia has displaced Saudi Arabia as China's top supplier of oil.* But the International Energy Agency has now said that *at the end of 2015 China likewise overtook Germany as Russia's top consumer.*

"Shipping data suggest that China is importing more and more ESPO crude [East Siberian Pacific Ocean blend] and at the end of 2015 overtook Germany to become Russia’s biggest customer," the IEA said in its Oil Market Report for March released on Friday.

Russia is now the top supplier of oil to the top importer of oil. This is still not quite the biggest energy partnership in the world – the flow of oil from Canada to US is larger – but it's certainly the most geopolitically significant.

The Canadian-American relations would be much the same with or without the massive oil trade, *but Russia and China becoming more commercialy important to each other will help to reinforce the many political ties (SCO, BRICS) Beijing and Moscow have been weaving so far.*

In fact the growing commercial relationship (particularly in oil and arms) is to a very large extent the consequence of the greater political understanding between the two since 2014 and the Western turn against Russia. The oil relationship specifically is taking off in the wake of a deal whereby* Russia is now accepting payment directly in *Chinese Renminbi*.*

This gives Beijing an added ease of mind and is not problematic for Russia either since China is nowadays a massive factory and therefore the renminibi Russia earsn with oil sales can be easily spent on valued Chinese goods. In fact every year Russia imports more from Chine than it exports so there can be no fear of accumulating unwanted currency.

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## Abacin

China must strengthen the relations with Russia, thanks to the strategic mistake made by United States. This relation must be strengthened by economic activities to the level that it won't be sabotaged by change of leadership. Russia will not only be a safe resources, but also a deep penetration into EuroAsia continent geopolitically. Alliance of China and Russia can dominate EuroAsia continent while alliance of China and United States can dominate Pacific.

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## Lure

TaiShang said:


> The Canadian-American relations would be much the same with or without the massive oil trade, *but Russia and China becoming more commercialy important to each other will help to reinforce the many political ties (SCO, BRICS) Beijing and Moscow have been weaving so far.*



The World order resulting from the WW2 put Russia and China into the same team. Of course they had their differences. But surely the way they see the World is not completely opposite. Even without the warming trade relations China and Russia had enjoyed positive and stable relations since the collapse of USSR.

In fact one can take this into one step further and define a relationship model that is completely opposite of what the author has described. Thanks to a similar World view about the opposition to political leadership of the US, China and Russia enjoys a warm economic relationship. Without a similar World view I can't imagine such a warm economic relationship. Thus Chinese and Russian relationship would be very warm even if there weren't any sweet trade deals between them, and thanks to those political ties we see those trade deals. Not the other way around. 



TaiShang said:


> This gives Beijing an added ease of mind and is not problematic for Russia either since China is nowadays a massive factory and therefore the renminibi Russia earsn with oil sales can be easily spent on valued Chinese goods. In fact every year Russia imports more from Chine than it exports so there can be no fear of accumulating unwanted currency.



Even if there were no trade surplus favoring the Chinese side a capital accumulation in terms of RMB is unlikely. Since RMB is recenlty approved as a reserve currency by IMF, a lot of central bank worldwide planning to enlarge their RMB stockpile. Hence Russia can even trade with 3rd party countries using RMB.

Thus there is no need for a trade surplus favoring China in order to use RMB for international trade.

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## Viet

China overtaking Germany as the largest oil consumer = downfall of Europe?



Abacin said:


> China must strengthen the relations with Russia, thanks to the strategic mistake made by United States. This relation must be strengthened by economic activities to the level that it won't be sabotaged by change of leadership. Russia will not only be a safe resources, but also a deep penetration into EuroAsia continent geopolitically. Alliance of China and Russia can dominate EuroAsia continent while alliance of China and United States can dominate Pacific.


Russia-china bilateral trades

2014: $95 billion
2015: $64 billion
2016: $40 billion?

a long way to go if you want to replace the evil west, I guess.


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## Abacin

Viet said:


> China overtaking Germany as the largest oil consumer = downfall of Europe?
> 
> 
> Russia-china bilateral trades
> 
> 2014: $95 billion
> 2015: $64 billion
> 2016: $40 billion?
> 
> a long way to go if you want to replace the evil west, I guess.


The commodity price dropped a lot. In terms of quantity, it still rose, even though it dropped in terms of dollars. Russia trade with the whole world dropped 30% due to sanctions and drop of commodity prices. But sometimes trade doesn't review the true relations. With the sanctions, Russia allows Chinese to invest many areas not opened before. For example, Chinese agriculture investment in Russia is thriving, which is helping Russia free from food crisis as in Soviet era.

The sanction on Russia rejuvenates Russian agriculture and light industries since Russia cannot import them with resources money. Many Chinese invest heavily in those areas. Russia has resources and well trained workers. It is a great opportunity to utilize Chinese capitals.

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## Lure

Viet said:


> 2014: $95 billion
> 2015: $64 billion
> 2016: $40 billion?



You need to look at the proportion of Chinese bilateral volume to entire international trade volume of Russia. Nominal values mean nothing since Russian currency experienced a huge devaluation and a huge drop in commodity prices.

As you can see from the chart below, Russian trade volume dropped from 2014 to 2015.






Russian exports contracted 31.4% in 2015 as of first quarter

Source : Russia's Foreign Trade Is Collapsing

"Exports fell by 31.4%, from about 39.5 billion US dollars to about 27.5 billion."

Russian exports to China contracted 20.9% in 2015 as of the 3rd quarters.

TASS: Business & Economy - Trade volume between China and Russia down 29% to $50 bln in January-September

"Imports from Russia to China declined in the first three quarters by 20.9% compared to the same period last year to $21.8 bln."

Those are not a very healthy comparison since the timeframe is different but I couldn't find the exact numbers. However those numbers can give you a clue about what's going on since they Show a very strong pattern. Both total exports and exports to China slowed down in Russian economy. However exports to China slowed down slower thus making China obtain a bigger ratio in the Russian exports.

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## Abacin

This sanction will decrease the dependence of the West for Russian Industries and enhance intertwined connections between China and Russia. China will become the crossing point where American Industry and Russia Industry meets. This will further Chinese status as the world manufacturing center.





Russia is still full of cheap foods in the counter. Just more Made in Russia instead of imports. Sanction of Russia is a gold rush for many Chinese capitals although bad for exporters.

Furthermore, Russia accepts CNY instead of dollar in Sino-Russia trades and starts to allow the usages of Chinese financial tools such as Union Pay to hedge against MasterCard and Visa.

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## mike2000 is back

Abacin said:


> China must strengthen the relations with Russia, thanks to the strategic mistake made by United States. This relation must be strengthened by economic activities to the level that it won't be sabotaged by change of leadership. Russia will not only be a safe resources, but also a deep penetration into EuroAsia continent geopolitically. Alliance of China and Russia can dominate EuroAsia continent while alliance of China and United States can dominate Pacific.



Lol awww....how sweet.
WHY HAS RUSSIA AND CHINA NOT FORMED AN ALLIANCE ALL THESE TIME EVEN UP TO NOW? Lol I dont see any country stopping both countries from doing so.
Or Is it also because of the 'evil' west manipulations? Lol If you cant form an alliance at the height of your most friendliest relations so far, then when will you form an alliance? Lol

Why has RUSSIA NEVER(and still doesn't) support China when it comes to your core interests and vice versa? Is it also because of the 'evil' west manipulations? Lol

Name me one SINGLE time Russia has ever publicly voiced its suppory to China regarding your disputes with other Asian countries, taiwan or even against the U.S. lol With allies/strategic partners like that who needs enemies? 

Now ask yourself WHY IS THAT??  Thing is Russia doesnt trust China any more than they trust the west. If anything they often rather prefer the west, only thing is we placed sanctions on them for their aggression. Lol 

Thing is Russia just has a normal business relationship with China, not different from U.S/Wesr-China massive business/investment ties. They only difference is that they have been selling you all sorts of weapons systems these past decades, but we placed sanctions on China after 1990 Tiananmen massacre, so we cant overtly sell sophisticated weapons to you people, apart from parts, engines, 'civilian helicopters' etc.

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## Abacin

mike2000 is back said:


> Lol awww....how sweet.
> WHY HAS RUSSIA AND CHINA NOT FORMED AN ALLIANCE ALL THESE TIME EVEN UP TO NOW? Lol I dont see any country stopping both countries from doing so.
> Or Is it also because of the 'evil' west manipulations? Lol If you cant form an alliance at the height of your most friendliest relations so far, then when will you form an alliance? Lol
> 
> Why has RUSSIA NEVER(and still doesn't) support China when it comes to your core interests and vice versa? Is it also because of the 'evil' west manipulations? Lol
> 
> Name me one SINGLE time Russia has ever publicly voiced its suppory to China regarding your disputes with other Asian countries, taiwan or even against the U.S. lol With allies/strategic partners like that who needs enemies?
> 
> Now ask yourself WHY IS THAT??  Thing is Russia doesnt trust China any more than they trust the west. If anything they often rather prefer the west, only thing is we placed sanctions on them for their aggression. Lol
> 
> Thing is Russia just has a normal business relationship with China, not different from U.S/Wesr-China massive business/investment ties. They only difference is that they have been selling you all sorts of weapons systems these past decades, but we placed sanctions on China after 1990 Tiananmen massacre, so we cant overtly sell sophisticated weapons to you people, apart from parts, engines, 'civilian helicopters' etc.


China cannot form alliance with Russia since Sino-USA is equally important. Deteriorating US-Russia relation allows China to become the anchor point for the triangular relation.
United Nations' Permanent Security council is one form of alliance for China/US/Russia. Europe was designed to be one, however, the impact of Europe without ability to unify will only become weaker and weaker compared to China/US/Russia. 
In this kind of triangular relations, no action means support since both China and Russia can stand on its own. China supports Crimea through no action; while Russia supports China in Taiwan, ECS and SCS through no action.

Maybe US is also supporting China in SCS. With US military involvement, China has solid reasons to militarize SCS without strong critics from other parts of world. US wants China to fill this military vacuum when US retreats from first island chain to make sure that every part of the world is dominated by US/China/Russia alliance. Politics is not as simple as it shows on the surface.

There may be competition of interests among China/US/Russia. But the biggest threat to all of three is countries such as North Korea, who is not obedient to United Nations system.

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## Viet

Abacin said:


> China cannot form alliance with Russia since Sino-USA is equally important. Deteriorating US-Russia relation allows China to become the anchor point for the triangular relation.
> United Nations' Permanent Security council is one form of alliance for China/US/Russia. Europe was designed to be one, however, the impact of Europe without ability to unify will only become weaker and weaker compared to China/US/Russia.
> In this kind of triangular relations, no action means support since both China and Russia can stand on its own. China supports Crimea through no action; while Russia supports China in Taiwan, ECS and SCS through no action.
> 
> Maybe US is also supporting China in SCS. With US military involvement, China has solid reasons to militarize SCS without strong critics from other parts of world. US wants China to fill this military vacuum when US retreats from first island chain to make sure that every part of the world is dominated by US/China/Russia alliance. Politics is not as simple as it shows on the surface.
> 
> There may be competition of interests among China/US/Russia. But the biggest threat to all of three is countries such as North Korea, who is not obedient to United Nations system.


Russia, America support you in the SC Sea?
Don't consume too much drugs, boy, that's not good for you!

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## Abacin

I US SCS actions, China benefits the most through island reclamation while Philippines is the biggest loser.


Viet said:


> Russia, America support you in the SC Sea?
> Don't consume too much drugs, boy, that's not good for you!


Through US SCS actions, China benefits the most through island reclamation while Philippines is the biggest loser. Is this not the reality?

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## Viet

Lure said:


> You need to look at the proportion of Chinese bilateral volume to entire international trade volume of Russia. Nominal values mean nothing since Russian currency experienced a huge devaluation and a huge drop in commodity prices.
> 
> As you can see from the chart below, Russian trade volume dropped from 2014 to 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian exports contracted 31.4% in 2015 as of first quarter
> 
> Source : Russia's Foreign Trade Is Collapsing
> 
> "Exports fell by 31.4%, from about 39.5 billion US dollars to about 27.5 billion."
> 
> Russian exports to China contracted 20.9% in 2015 as of the 3rd quarters.
> 
> TASS: Business & Economy - Trade volume between China and Russia down 29% to $50 bln in January-September
> 
> "Imports from Russia to China declined in the first three quarters by 20.9% compared to the same period last year to $21.8 bln."
> 
> Those are not a very healthy comparison since the timeframe is different but I couldn't find the exact numbers. However those numbers can give you a clue about what's going on since they Show a very strong pattern. Both total exports and exports to China slowed down in Russian economy. However exports to China slowed down slower thus making China obtain a bigger ratio in the Russian exports.


That's not changing the fact on the ground: China foreign trade is in freefall.


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## Abacin

The backbone of US foreign policy is still the United Nation system designed by President Roosevelt. US is just trying to see if it can get more than that. If not, it will withdraw to the United Nation system.



Viet said:


> That's not changing the fact on the ground: China foreign trade is in freefall.


The whole world is in free fall. We are entering the stage of anti-globalization because workers in developed countries get really hurt.

In 1980, US had 19 million manufacturing jobs with 200 million populations; but in 2016, US only has 13 million manufacturing jobs with 300 million populations. From now on, manufacturing factories have to go closer to the market, not cheaper jobs. Many Chinese companies have already started factories in US to meet this demand.





Lenovo's new Whitsett, N.C., plant




the state-of-the-art American Yuncheng Gravure Cylinder plant

Closer to the market, not closer to cheaper labors, will become the mainstream. That's why China invests heavily in Europe, America, Russia and India to protect market shares of Chinese products through revenue and jobs sharing. Samsung's investment in Vietnam proved to be a big mistake. Its market share in China and United States has dropped significantly.

Global trade dropped 13.8% in 2015, but world GDP still increased 3.1%. This just reflects that more factories move closer to the market. Instead Chinese share of global exports jumped in 2015.




China Economic Watch | China Outperforms in Global Trade

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## gambit

I hope China get more and more dependent on Russia for energy.


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## Stephen Cohen

gambit said:


> I hope China get more and more dependent on Russia for energy.



How will that help USA


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## Viet

Abacin said:


> The backbone of US foreign policy is still the United Nation system designed by President Roosevelt. US is just trying to see if it can get more than that. If not, it will withdraw to the United Nation system.
> 
> 
> The whole world is in free fall. We are entering the stage of anti-globalization because workers in developed countries get really hurt.
> 
> In 1980, US had 19 million manufacturing jobs with 200 million populations; but in 2016, US only has 13 million manufacturing jobs with 300 million populations. From now on, manufacturing factories have to go closer to the market, not cheaper jobs. Many Chinese companies have already started factories in US to meet this demand.
> 
> 
> Closer to the market, not closer to cheaper labors, will become the mainstream. That's why China invests heavily in Europe, America, Russia and India to protect market shares of Chinese products through revenue and jobs sharing. Samsung's investment in Vietnam proved to be a big mistake. Its market share in China and United States has dropped significantly.
> 
> Global trade dropped 13.8% in 2015, but world GDP still increased 3.1%. This just reflects that more factories move closer to the market. Instead Chinese share of global exports jumped in 2015.
> China Economic Watch | China Outperforms in Global Trade


how is Samsung's investment in Vietnam proved to be a big mistake?
I am willing to bet, in 5 years, the company will close all factories in China and move to VN.

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## Abacin

gambit said:


> I hope China get more and more dependent on Russia for energy.


Both China and Russia have resources to build independent economy. Both also know very well about diversification and anchoring. Leaders such as Gorbachev are very rare and won't repeat with a century; otherwise China and Russia couldn't make to the current level. United States cannot behave with this kind of mood: Once you pick up some golds, you can pick up gold again. Since the fall of Soviet Union, the wisdom of United States degrades a lot due to hegemony.



Viet said:


> how is Samsung's investment in Vietnam proved to be a big mistake?
> I am willing to bet, in 5 years, the company will close all factories in China and move to VN.


They have factories in Vietnam and they lost their market share in China. If they close all factories in China, they will have no business in China. China, United States, Europe and India all are using domestic market as a tool to promote domestic technology and jobs.

Old model to develop economy through export-oriented economy with cheap labor is dead. China was lucky to catch the last train. Rising protection and coming of robots make cheap labor less important while market becomes the most important in deciding factory location. The attraction of investments will be decided by the size of local market.

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## gambit

Stephen Cohen said:


> How will that help USA


A China dependency on Russia for energy does not 'help' US directly, but what it does is to introduce a vulnerability into China. Remember when all the people on this forum were cheering for the US to 'collapse' because of if so-and-so reduce oil output, blockade the Strait of Hormuz, etc...etc... ? While the bulk of that is sheer fantasy, there is a grain of truth that our oil import introduced a vulnerability. The bulk of US oil import is from Canada and Mexico, so that vulnerability is small. On the other side of the world, China and Russia are not exactly friendly acquaintances, let alone allies, and much farther from friends.


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## Viet

Abacin said:


> They have factories in Vietnam and they lost their market share in China. If they close all factories in China, they will have no business in China. China, United States, Europe and India all are using domestic market as a tool to promote domestic technology and jobs.
> 
> Old model to develop economy through export-oriented economy with cheap labor is dead. China was lucky to catch the last train. Rising protection and coming of robots make cheap labor less important while market becomes the most important in deciding factory location. The attraction of investments will be decided by the size of local market.


nonsense. China and Asean have FTA. take Samsung. she can relocate all factories to VN and export smartphones to CN, even the market share is declining in CN. all Samsung needs is import stuffs from CN, which can´t be made in VN. you can dream of making expensive stuffs by robots, and shunt cheap labor to other countries.

can repeat to other industries such as garment and textile. you can enjoy your high paid jobs for a few, while the mass will struggle to find jobs.

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## GCTom

Russia is happy to sell oil to Europe/Germany as well as to China at fair market price. However, the difference is China will not use its large-oil-customer status to attack or threaten Russia. 

It is good to see these two countries are continuing to develop their economic ties. It will only benefit the people of both nations.

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## TaiShang

Lure said:


> In fact one can take this into one step further and define a relationship model that is completely opposite of what the author has described. Thanks to a similar World view about the opposition to political leadership of the US, China and Russia enjoys a warm economic relationship. Without a similar World view I can't imagine such a warm economic relationship. Thus Chinese and Russian relationship would be very warm even if there weren't any sweet trade deals between them, and thanks to those political ties we see those trade deals. Not the other way around.



I totally agree. In fact, in an academic article I jointly published, we argued that China-Russia relations are based on ideational similarities, hence, structurally sound. Conjectural differences, for that reason, won't negatively impact the overall strategic partnership.

China and Russia are forming a very different form of major power relationship, which fits very well China's long-held foreign policy doctrine.



Lure said:


> Even if there were no trade surplus favoring the Chinese side a capital accumulation in terms of RMB is unlikely. Since RMB is recenlty approved as a reserve currency by IMF, a lot of central bank worldwide planning to enlarge their RMB stockpile. Hence Russia can even trade with 3rd party countries using RMB.



The pressure by the US is only accelerating the process. But, even without the presence of the US, China and Russia were destined to be close allies because of geography, ideology and geopolitics.



mike2000 is back said:


> WHY HAS RUSSIA AND CHINA NOT FORMED AN ALLIANCE ALL THESE TIME EVEN UP TO NOW? Lol I dont see any country stopping both countries from doing so.



Because they do not want to. These two countries ae different beasts and they won't repeat Washington's strategy. The lack of a formal alliance (which China has with nobody) does not mean lack of strategic depth. If you really want to try the extend of it, wage an open war on Russia and see how far China is willing to go. I assure you China will go ten Korea Wars on you.



mike2000 is back said:


> Why has RUSSIA NEVER(and still doesn't) support China when it comes to your core interests and vice versa? Is it also because of the 'evil' west manipulations? Lol



Don't speak "Ahmedinejad" language, this does not make you look funny but irritating. 

Russia supported China when it needed; but, China is in no need of support at the moment. The relationship we are constructing is deeper and requires no need for show of force like the US stages stunts every month to prove South Korea how great an ally they are.

We are just a different super powers and we like to catch you off-guard.



mike2000 is back said:


> Name me one SINGLE time Russia has ever publicly voiced its suppory to China regarding your disputes with other Asian countries, taiwan or even against the U.S. lol With allies/strategic partners like that who needs enemies?



Lots of silent support. And lots of joint statements at the very conceptual level. That's why we really care; to be on the same line conceptually. For Taiwan or SCS, China is in no need for overt help because we can handle it just well. But, for example, China played an instrumental role to break the effect of your sanctions on Russia, and will do more if it needs to.

And, institutionally, for example, China and Russia agreed to align OBOR and EEU to create an Eurasian juggernaut. I guess this cooperation is no less important than your fossilized Atlantic alliance.



mike2000 is back said:


> Thing is Russia just has a normal business relationship with China, not different from U.S/Wesr-China massive business/investment ties. They only difference is that they have been selling you all sorts of weapons systems these past decades, so we cant overtly sell sophisticated weapons to you people, apart from parts, engines, 'civilian helicopters' etc.



No. Ideationally, we have no commonality with you. You are just a business partner to us; a small island out of many. We will never have any ideological, historical, and conceptual affinity with you. At the highest level of international politics (UNSC) we will always side with Russia, not you. So, when, it comes to rule making and idea making, Russia is China's only partner/ally.

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## Beast

gambit said:


> A China dependency on Russia for energy does not 'help' US directly, but what it does is to introduce a vulnerability into China. Remember when all the people on this forum were cheering for the US to 'collapse' because of if so-and-so reduce oil output, blockade the Strait of Hormuz, etc...etc... ? While the bulk of that is sheer fantasy, there is a grain of truth that our oil import introduced a vulnerability. The bulk of US oil import is from Canada and Mexico, so that vulnerability is small. On the other side of the world, China and Russia are not exactly friendly acquaintances, let alone allies, and much farther from friends.



China is switching to wind farm, solar and nuclear to power most of its electricity and heavily promote electric locomotive like train, car and bus. The China bus already on track to switch to 90% electric in 5 years time. Already China import of coal in 2015 has dropped 3.6% despite increase of electricity usage. Slowly import of fossil fuel will drop too.

Remember, China still produce 45% of its own fossil fuel for her need. Plus if really need, it can drill the shale gas.

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## Abacin

Viet said:


> nonsense. China and Asean have FTA. take Samsung. she can relocate all factories to VN and export smartphones to CN, even the market share is declining in CN. all Samsung needs is import stuffs from CN, which can´t be made in VN. you can dream of making expensive stuffs by robots, and shunt cheap labor to other countries.
> 
> can repeat to other industries such as garment and textile. you can enjoy your high paid jobs for a few, while the mass will struggle to find jobs.


You are naive in foreign business. If the government is not happy with you, it can have many ways to create troubles for you. For example, Huawei is very difficult to penetrate into US market although it has No. 1 share in the market. The important reason is that Huawei makes everything including chips by itself while other Chinese smartphones players still use chips from US companies. Huawei's market share in United States has no job values to United States. Similarly US government always tries to check European or Japanese cars to help domestic auto makers.

Robots have entered the explosive stage. It may still no cheap. But every country wants to protect their own manufacturing factories so that robot R&D can be carried out and the country can have a foot on robotic manufacturing. Companies working on robotic manufacturing all get subsidies no matter in China and United States. With protectionism, products made from those robotic manufacturing factories can compete well with those made from cheap labors elsewhere for many industries.

The core of Industry 4.0 is robotics.

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## vtnsx

Viet said:


> Russia, America support you in the SC Sea?
> Don't consume too much drugs, boy, that's not good for you!



lol, no i think he sniffs a lot of bullsh1t in the air. It got him drowsy.



Abacin said:


> You are naive in foreign business. If the government is not happy with you, it can have many ways to create troubles for you. For example, Huawei is very difficult to penetrate into US market although it has No. 1 share in the market. The important reason is that Huawei makes everything including chips by itself while other Chinese smartphones players still use chips from US companies. Huawei's market share in United States has no job values to United States. Similarly US government always tries to check European or Japanese cars to help domestic auto makers.
> 
> Robots have entered the explosive stage. It may still no cheap. But every country wants to protect their own manufacturing factories so that robot R&D can be carried out and the country can have a foot on robotic manufacturing. Companies working on robotic manufacturing all get subsidies no matter in China and United States. With protectionism, products made from those robotic manufacturing factories can compete well with those made from cheap labors elsewhere for many industries.
> 
> The core of Industry 4.0 is robotics.



Yet, you are naive in building business relationship.


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## mike2000 is back

TaiShang said:


> . If you really want to try the extend of it, wage an open war on Russia and see how far China is willing to go. I assure you China will go ten Korea Wars on you.



China will go to war with the West if Russia is attacked?? LMAO. 
That was funny dude. You got good sarcasm I must confess. 
First time I have heard this in my entire life. Good one mate. Lool



TaiShang said:


> You are just a business partner to us; a small island out of many. We will never have any ideological, historical, and conceptual affinity with you. At the highest level of international politics (UNSC) we will always side with Russia, not you. So, when, it comes to rule making and idea making, Russia is China's only partner/ally.



Lol you talk about the delusions of being an Ahmadinejad(which I agree. Lol ), then you go on to talk about how you and Russia have historical shared ideologies and affinity to Russia than towards us? Lol 
Mate we are not in Mao's era of the 1950s . Lol Which common ideology do you have with Russia today? 
you abandoned Russia's commie ideology model and embraced the West while opening up to us and discarding Moscow(granted even Russia later discarded that outdated ideology.lol), which served your country well I must say. Now you are talking about shared ideology with Russia. . 
You do remember that yoy allied with the 'evil west' to bring down your Soviet ideological ally as recently as 30 years ago right?, Did the west force China to abandon irs ideological Soviet Russia? Nope. 

Its all about interests mate, so quit that ideological/hostorical affinity bullshit, thats for delusional islamist to believe/swallow. 

If anything we have more close relations and affinity with Russia, since they are still European,similar race, and europe has had more people to people contacts /interactions with Russia than China can ever have. 
As I said its all about interests dude


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

mike2000 is back said:


> Lol awww....how sweet.
> WHY HAS RUSSIA AND CHINA NOT FORMED AN ALLIANCE ALL THESE TIME EVEN UP TO NOW? .



Alliance mean dominant and subordinate relation such as US-Japan, US-Philippine both take order from Americans but not the other way around but China will never want to get lecture by Russian on how we should conduct our foreign policy nor who should we chose as friends. Alliance also mean that you have to defend ally's interest or at least not to do anything to undermine their interests, this will limit your options and freedom of conducting the foreign policy...basically China want to be the master of it own same go with Russia, so it's very logic that both will never go into alliance. Nerveless there is an appropriate formula that satisfy both nation's interest that close to match the word alliance, it's call *strategically partnership*.

Under the strategically partnership mean *both China and Russia will only unit to defend the common interest* such as US's THAAD deployment on SK, or if US try unilaterally slap sanction on innocent country, or step into central Asia to undermine China and Russia's interest. Beside that both China & Russia can do what they want. Russia can continue sell submarine to Vietnam to counter China in SCS, sell better weapons to India to counter China and same go with China, we can cozy with Ukraine to get engine technology or blue print for ex-soviet weapon or cozy central Asia countries for oil.

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## C130

TaiShang said:


> *Europe Bye Bye: China Overtakes Germany as Russia's Largest Oil Customer*
> 
> The Russian-Chinese oil partnership is shaping to be the most important of such relationships in the world
> 
> *It only makes sense.* We've previously reported that *Russia has displaced Saudi Arabia as China's top supplier of oil.* But the International Energy Agency has now said that *at the end of 2015 China likewise overtook Germany as Russia's top consumer.*
> 
> "Shipping data suggest that China is importing more and more ESPO crude [East Siberian Pacific Ocean blend] and at the end of 2015 overtook Germany to become Russia’s biggest customer," the IEA said in its Oil Market Report for March released on Friday.
> 
> Russia is now the top supplier of oil to the top importer of oil. This is still not quite the biggest energy partnership in the world – the flow of oil from Canada to US is larger – but it's certainly the most geopolitically significant.
> 
> The Canadian-American relations would be much the same with or without the massive oil trade, *but Russia and China becoming more commercialy important to each other will help to reinforce the many political ties (SCO, BRICS) Beijing and Moscow have been weaving so far.*
> 
> In fact the growing commercial relationship (particularly in oil and arms) is to a very large extent the consequence of the greater political understanding between the two since 2014 and the Western turn against Russia. The oil relationship specifically is taking off in the wake of a deal whereby* Russia is now accepting payment directly in *Chinese Renminbi*.*
> 
> This gives Beijing an added ease of mind and is not problematic for Russia either since China is nowadays a massive factory and therefore the renminibi Russia earsn with oil sales can be easily spent on valued Chinese goods. In fact every year Russia imports more from Chine than it exports so there can be no fear of accumulating unwanted currency.




China is getting more Russian oil than Germany now so??? 60% of Russia oil exports head West to Europe. only about 14-15% goes to China. unless that flip flops in the next decade I don't think this is a big deal.

There is a lot of oil out there too much in fact. even Saudi Arabia is stepping on Russia toes and taking market share from Russia in Europe and with Irans oil coming back online that just means Russia is going to face more competition in Europe.

China is slowing down so that means it's need for more oil is slowing as well.


Saudi Arabia's Oil War With Russia - Bloomberg View


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## TaiShang

mike2000 is back said:


> China will go to war with the West if Russia is attacked?? LMAO.
> That was funny dude. You got good sarcasm I must confess.
> First time I have heard this in my entire life. Good one mate. Lool



First of all, the West won't attack Russia. We know it right? So, yes, hypothetically speaking, China will get involved. That's despite off all the emoticons you mobilize.

Short of a war, the West is in open conflict with Russia and China is clearly on the side of Russia from economic warfare to Syria and Ukraine. I do not know what else do you expect? Probably, you won't be convinced so long as there is no NATO.

That you won't see anytime soon because China and Russia view the world differently. We do not look at the world from the same angle as you.



mike2000 is back said:


> Mate we are not in Mao's era of the 1950s . Lol Which common ideology do you have with Russia today?



Pragmatism. Anti-hegemony. Non-intervention. Fierce sovereignty. Anti-Western imperialism. State-supervised liberal economy. State-held assets and key technologies.



mike2000 is back said:


> You do remember that yoy allied with the 'evil west' to bring down your Soviet ideological ally as recently as 30 years ago right?, Did the west force China to abandon irs ideological Soviet Russia? Nope.



Your worldview is too coarse and superficial. So, I will not narrate for you the ideological intricacies of the time. But, in a single sentence, we did not ally the West to bring down the Soviets. There was a hiatus, for sure, but that was, again, ideological. It just happened that China embraced an open-up policy before the Soviets thought of it. China is still China today. Soviets are no more. We Communists learn from history and move on. Russia today shows they have learned from the Soviet experience. Hence the deep strategic partnership.



mike2000 is back said:


> Its all about interests mate, so quit that ideological/hostorical affinity bullshit, thats for delusional islamist to believe/swallow.



It is definitely about interests and the Western and Chinese interests are antithetical. That's why we are building up strategic assets. These are to harm you should you dare to harm us our interests, you know it right? If you are looking for a pilgrimage in the mecca of pragmatism, look no further than China.

We do not buy your (your, in general terms) idiotic civilizational "The West" propaganda.



mike2000 is back said:


> If anything we have more close relations and affinity with Russia, since they are still European,similar race, and europe has had more people to people contacts /interactions with Russia than China can ever have.



OK, I will not touch this consolation for you. I will just advice you that as long as you are under US Atlanticist yoke, you will be seen simply as a geostrategic extension of Washington and we won't take you seriously. You are only good to do business with; not to develop deep strategic partnership.

But I like it that your countries won't be alarmed at the ever expanding China-Russia strategic alignment.

Now I want to share this.

***

*An Alliance Against US Hegemony: Russia, China Begin 'Coordinating' Foreign Policy*

The economic partnership between Russia and China is rapidly developing into a political and military alliance against US ambitions in Asia

We reported yesterday that China has become the first foreign buyer of Russia's most advanced air defense system, the S-400, and noted how the deal is consistent with growing military and political ties between the two countries.

Moscow clearly sees Beijing as a long-term ally if it's willing to provide China with its best military hardware.

If the S-400 deal isn't persuasive enough though, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi's comments during his recent visit to Moscow should remove all doubt regarding the China-Russia alliance:

_“China-Russia cooperation is not confined to bilateral levels, instead, the two countries_* have been coordinating and playing active roles in a number of international issues*_,” Wang said on Friday._

_The two countries, as permanent members of the UN Security Council and major emerging economies, _*have held similar positions on the Syrian crisis, as well as negotiations at the WTO and IMF.*

_“As each other’s _*most important and prioritized partners, China and Russia are developing the comprehensive strategic coordination as a strategic principle, rather than any expediency*_,” the Chinese Foreign Minister added._

This is an incredible statement, and is most likely causing mass panic at the Pentagon. China and Russia are working together on "strategic coordination" regarding "a number of international issues". This is how NATO talks, minus the acronym.

While Yi cites the conflict in Syria as an example of "similar positions" between Moscow and Beijing, we suspect that China realizes it will need help to keep the US out of its sphere of influence. Together, Russia and China are now protesting US plans to deploy new missile defense systems in South Korea. And as the US continues to antagonize China in the South China Sea, Beijing sees Russia as a political and military partner against further western ambitions in Asia.

Which brings us back to the S-400 deal: China wants military deterrence from US encroachment -- something that Russia specializes in.

Yes, China wears the "economic pants" in this relationship, but Russia more than compensates with its advanced military capabilities and incredible potential for economic growth -- which China is heavily invested in. And as BRICS continues to develop, as well as the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and the Eurasian Economic Union, we predict that China will gradually come to see Russia as an economic equal.

True, China and Russia don't have joint military bases spanning the globe, but NATO is hardly a model for an effective defensive alliance.

The China-Russia alliance against US hegemony: Finally, something to drink to.





@vostok , @Chinese-Dragon , @Abacin , @Beast , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon , @Arryn _et al._

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## xunzi

gambit said:


> A China dependency on Russia for energy does not 'help' US directly, but what it does is to introduce a vulnerability into China. Remember when all the people on this forum were cheering for the US to 'collapse' because of if so-and-so reduce oil output, blockade the Strait of Hormuz, etc...etc... ? While the bulk of that is sheer fantasy, there is a grain of truth that our oil import introduced a vulnerability. The bulk of US oil import is from Canada and Mexico, so that vulnerability is small. On the other side of the world, China and Russia are not exactly friendly acquaintances, let alone allies, and much farther from friends.


Actually Russia is the safest place to buy energy from. There is no threat of third party meddling in Russia energy policy.

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## cirr

*30 days saved! New rail route speeds up cargo delivery from China to Russia

A new cargo rail route linking the administrative centre of China's northeastern city of Harbin to the Russian city of Yekaterinburg opened on Thursday.*

The first Harbin-Russia international cargo train loaded with containers arrived for customs checks with the TransContainer company in the fourth largest city in Russia.

According to the Vice Director of the TransContainer branch on the Sverdlovsk Railway Maxim Smirnov, "the time on the road amounted to 10 days," which is four times faster than previously possible. Previously, a delivery of goods from southern China to Russia had to be transported mainly by sea via the port of Dalian, which takes on average 40 days.


[InKunming--China] 

*Railway authorities in China's far western Xinjiang region on Wednesday launched a cargo train service linking its regional capital of Urumqi with Moscow.*

The one more cargo train service westward can help boost the development of the northwestern autonomous region, a "core area" of the Silk Road economic belt, said Liu Jianxin, vice governor of Xinjiang, at the launch ceremony.
Since March 2014, Xinjiang has opened cargo train service to Kazakhstan, Georgia, Iran, Turkey and also Chelyabinsk of Russia.

The first train, loaded with 1,300 tonnes of PVC, left Urumqi at 6:15 p.m. and is scheduled to reach Moscow more than 4,000 km away in about ten days. It will return with wood pulp from Russia.

Wang Hongxin, chairman of Xinjiang Zhongtai Chemical Co., Ltd., said the cargo service can help drive the company's annual sales of PVC by 10 percent.

By the second half of the year, more than three cargo trains will run between Xinjiang and the destinations in Russia and also central and western Asia per week.

The trains can then transport 50 billion yuan (8.1 billion U.S. dollars) of cargo a year, Liu said.

http://en.kunming.cn/index/content/2...nt_3933074.htm

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## TaiShang

cirr said:


> *30 days saved! New rail route speeds up cargo delivery from China to Russia
> 
> A new cargo rail route linking the administrative centre of China's northeastern city of Harbin to the Russian city of Yekaterinburg opened on Thursday.*
> 
> The first Harbin-Russia international cargo train loaded with containers arrived for customs checks with the TransContainer company in the fourth largest city in Russia.
> 
> According to the Vice Director of the TransContainer branch on the Sverdlovsk Railway Maxim Smirnov, "the time on the road amounted to 10 days," which is four times faster than previously possible. Previously, a delivery of goods from southern China to Russia had to be transported mainly by sea via the port of Dalian, which takes on average 40 days.
> 
> 
> [InKunming--China]
> 
> *Railway authorities in China's far western Xinjiang region on Wednesday launched a cargo train service linking its regional capital of Urumqi with Moscow.*
> 
> The one more cargo train service westward can help boost the development of the northwestern autonomous region, a "core area" of the Silk Road economic belt, said Liu Jianxin, vice governor of Xinjiang, at the launch ceremony.
> Since March 2014, Xinjiang has opened cargo train service to Kazakhstan, Georgia, Iran, Turkey and also Chelyabinsk of Russia.
> 
> The first train, loaded with 1,300 tonnes of PVC, left Urumqi at 6:15 p.m. and is scheduled to reach Moscow more than 4,000 km away in about ten days. It will return with wood pulp from Russia.
> 
> Wang Hongxin, chairman of Xinjiang Zhongtai Chemical Co., Ltd., said the cargo service can help drive the company's annual sales of PVC by 10 percent.
> 
> By the second half of the year, more than three cargo trains will run between Xinjiang and the destinations in Russia and also central and western Asia per week.
> 
> The trains can then transport 50 billion yuan (8.1 billion U.S. dollars) of cargo a year, Liu said.
> 
> http://en.kunming.cn/index/content/2...nt_3933074.htm

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## TaiShang

*Russia and China Will Join Europe to the Eurasian Landmass*

The European peninsula will be drawn into the embrace of the Heartland as Russia and China work out their natural destiny as Eurasia

_The author is an Italian industrialist and Honorary member of the Academy of Science of the Institut de France with long experience in the Middle East. He wrote this article especially for RI._

In a now famous speech delivered at the 2007 Munich Conference on Security, Vladimir Putin outlined his foreign policy in no uncertain terms: Russia would not tolerate being encircled by the Atlantic Alliance, and there is no disputing his claim that the network of sensors, radars, and missiles installed around the Federation is not there to manage "instability in the greater Middle East”. He believed then, and still does now, that the international system should be based on laws endorsed by the United Nations and other global agencies, rather than on NATO and the EU, as he stated to the Italian Minister of Defense at the time.

The coalitions of the willing that supported US and Saudi actions in the First and Second Gulf Wars, wiping out a traditional Russian ally, Iraq, resulted in unexpected blowback, turning the oil region into a "no man's land".

For the Russian President, American unipolarity signals a strategic void at the edge of the empire, with incalculable consequences for future strategists, even the United States.

In Munich, Putin made clear his desire to achieve a reduction of missile systems, to be later extended to other players. Bilateral negotiations would be carried out under UN auspices, not delegated to regional alliances. The "conventionalization" of confrontation would lessen the nuclear threat and allow for significant reductions in military spending, ending the post-cold war confrontation and reducing clashes between the peripheries - or Rimland - of the former opposing blocs.

Emphasizing the destructive effects of a unipolar world, Russia maintains that no one power can control the world, but can only generate polarizations leading to a terrible war. For Russia, the future must be multipolar, all the more so that the US has lost its geo-economic primacy.

Globalizing must end. But what about Europe? Will it wait for the crumbs of the TTIP, hoping a still secret treaty with the United States will allow it to grow its economy, or will it finally begin to think big?

After harsh comments on US behavior, in Munich Putin said that pressure to adopt “democracy”, including by NGOs, constituted interference and produced the opposite effect, putting weak States at the mercy of expensive international aid, but also of multinational companies that increase social tensions and in some cases, encourage Islamist terrorism.

In Munich, as currently, it took political courage to link global economic disasters, globalization, unipolar policies and social and political destabilization to jihadist terrorism. For Vladimir Putin, the unipolar world ended when globalization was countered by Chinese expansion, the BRICS and other new centers of economic and political development. The United States is now in a financial crisis provoked by its own geopolitical and financial overreach.

Several of the Russian President’s prophecies have come true: China is expanding geo-economically, both with the One Road, One Belt initiative, which will unify the entire Asian Heartland economically, and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which will evolve from an "Asian EEC" into an "Eastern NATO".

The traditional American pendulum swings between exercising "necessary power" abroad and the "city on the hill”; between Teddy Roosevelt and the Monroe doctrine. Even Israel’s Prime Minister turned down a March 18 meeting with Obama, while strengthening ties with Russia, members of the Knesset paying a visit to Crimea in early February. Israel’s own global strategy is to continue a divide and rule strategy vis a vis its Arab neighbors, seeking to become a regional power as the Islamic world finds itself increasingly at war. Israel monitors its defenses along the Syrian border, and although when hostilities began it saw Bashar al-Assad as the weak link of the pro-Iranian axis, it will longer plan support the so-called "moderate rebels" alongside the 

The US and NATO expected Russian support for the Arab Syrian Army to be technologically and strategically irrelevant, but with Baathist covert networks operating in Raqqa, the “Caliphate’s" capital city, and Assad’s forces a few miles away encircling Aleppo, ISIS/Turkey cooperation looks very different. The Russian Federation has proved a credible opponent of the Atlantic Alliance, preventing NATO from going beyond its old peacekeeping rhetoric in the Middle East and North 

Russia and China are investing in Israel’s hi-tech sector, the most advanced in the world, filling the gaps left by the end of US hegemony and forcing Washington to pressure China to limit its land and sea power as it tries to encircle the Russian Federation in a useless resurgence of the Cold War. The Philippines offered the US six new bases for America’s Special Forces global network. But as John Maynard Keynes’ once said, "the difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping old 

The US attempt to encircle Eurasia is met by Russian and Chinese expansion across the Eurasian Heartland. Today Putin is a careful follower of the American geopolitician Spykman, who was involved in Soviet containment and prioritized the “edges”, or “rim” of the world's continental land masses. Today, both China and Russia are expanding into their “near abroad”, in order to oppose the US economically, as China gradually relinquishes its role as foremost buyer of US Treasury bonds.

Both new powers aiming for a multipolar world are shedding dollars and buying gold, while the current imbalance in world markets enables China to sign contracts in renminmbi with emerging countries, and Russia to sell oil and gas to small nations as well as China, offsetting the US embargo.

A new distribution of the world’s strategic polarities can be imagined in the near future, going from Russia, the Western hinge of the new Chinese Silk Road towards the Middle East and the European Union, and countering the pro-US Sunni axis in Syria with a new independent role for Israel.

Russia still fears America’s global strike capability, with or without NATO support. Already at the 2007 Munich Conference, it stressed the importance of decoupling Europe from the Atlantic Alliance, which Putin sees as part of the US’s global strategy to protect power.

The Russian Federation will be stably connected to India, and later to the EU, as it separates strategically from the US and forges an independent foreign policy. It will also turn its attention to the Arctic and the Russian share of the Antarctic.

The primary aim of Russia’s maritime doctrine to 2020 is to protect its “near abroad” from destabilization by US-sponsored "color revolutions”, and NATO’s expansion is seen as the main threat to its strategic interests. Is the European Union really interested in destabilizing the Rimland to strike Russia or China? I think not.

The cultural and symbolic aspect.of Eurasianism is fundamental for Russia. The Soviet world saw a cultural continuity between Europe and the "Third Rome”, seeking to equalize, if need be violently, old Russia with the West. Today, Eurasia represents the cultural and strategic autonomy of Vladimir Putin’s Russia, an attempt to connect Eurasia’s European peninsula with the Slavic Heartland, bridging nations and traditional geopolitical boundaries.

@vostok , @senheiser , @Chinese-Dragon , @Arryn , @Dungeness , @Tiqiu

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## jhungary

lol............

This is fun....

On one hand, the author saying Europe as a whole should maintain an "Independent" foreign policy. on the other hand, he is also preaching the Europe should join the Russia and China to "Counter" the balance of Pro-US Sunni Dominated Syria......

Did the writer actually know what he is saying? The two are contradicting each other. Joining "Russian" Bloc had they have one is not maintaining an "Independent" policy, otherwise EU leaning on NATO would also be called "Independent" FP....

But then this happened at the end of this Russian Insider Article

Did you enjoy this article? - Consider helping us!
*Russia Insider depends on your donations: the more you give, the more we can do.*
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LOL.


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## TaiShang

*China-Russia ties not to be affected by changing int'l situation*
Xinhua, March 16, 2016

Premier Li Keqiang said Wednesday that *China-Russia relations will not be affected by changes in international situation and pressures from a third party.*

China follows the principle of non-alignment, and China-Russia cooperation will not target at a third party, Li told a press conference after the conclusion of the national legislature's annual session.

China and Russia are each other's biggest neighbor, and there is a comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination in bilateral relations, the premier said.

*"This relationship is an all-dimensional one," he said, adding that President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, have met with each other "quite often".*

There is a good political relationship and enhanced economic ties between the two countries.

China has developed its relations with Russia on the basis of mutual respect and mutual benefit, Li said, adding that China pursues an independent foreign policy of peace.

China and Russia can explore their cooperation in the integrated development of oil and natural gas, and introduce greater diversity in bilateral trade, said the premier.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia need to join hands to secure stability of Korean Peninsula*
By Wang Xiaobo
Source:Global Times
Published: 2016-3-17 23:33:01


Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi visited Russia last week. The two sides coordinated their stance over the North Korean nuclear issue, stating that both China and Russia firmly champion denuclearization on the Korean Peninsula and would not give up efforts to resume the Six-Party Talks. 

*China and Russia of late have been deeply locked into a double-layered predicament on the Korean Peninsula, threatened by both the North Korean nuclear tests and the possible deployment of the THAAD missile defense system in the South. *

Sticking to a strategic line of "parallel economic construction and nuclear weapons development," Pyongyang launched a long-range missile and placed a satellite into orbit with stubborn determination to acquire prohibited nuclear capabilities. 

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un ordered his country to be ready to use its nuclear warheads at any time and to turn its military posture to "pre-emptive attack" mode, which aroused deep concerns in the international community. The US and South Korea have carried out joint military drills that are unprecedented in size. The confrontational acts of both sides have escalated tensions on the peninsula. 

*China and Russia are concerned that if the North Korean nuclear problem cannot be properly tackled, countries like South Korea and Japan will follow suit in nuclear weapons development. Worse, a regional war may break out, causing turbulence along borders with China and Russia, floods of North Korean refugees, destruction to the environment and a humanitarian crisis. *

The two countries are also confronted with a second predicament of the possible deployment of the THAAD system in South Korea. According to the Associated Press, Washington and Seoul last week began formal talks on deploying this sophisticated system.

During Wang's Russia visit, Wang and his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov expressed their opposition to the deployment of the THAAD system. They hold that putting the system in South Korea exceeds the actual defensive demands of the Korean Peninsula and would "inflict direct harm to the strategic security interests of China and Russia." 

China and Russia should join hands and take a dual track of curbing both North Korea's nuclear ambition as well as the deployment of the THAAD system. 

President Xi Jinping said in 2013 that* "No one should be allowed to throw a region and even the whole world into chaos for selfish gain." *

In order to address the North Korean nuclear conundrum, China has put forward a proposal to pursue the denuclearization of the peninsula and the replacement of the armistice agreement with a peace treaty. Only if the two are negotiated in parallel, can a scientific, rational and balanced solution be reached to resolve Pyongyang's nuclear problem. 

*The situation on the peninsula has not improved since UN Resolution 2270 took effect. Instead, it has deteriorated.* Concerning North Korea's advancement of its nuclear missile plan, China and Russia cannot sit by and see a disruption to the peace and stability on the peninsula and the Northeast Asian region. 

*The two also need to thwart the deployment of the THAAD system. Deploying the THAAD system in South Korea poses direct threats to the strategic and security interests of China and Russia. They must work together to prevent the US and South Korea from causing turbulence on the peninsula without hesitation so as to safeguard the security interests of both countries. *

Northeast Asia is a complicated region full of hotspots and conundrums. China and Russia, for the interest of the whole region, should enhance cooperation, communication, coordination, information-sharing and military trust to lower the risks of war on the peninsula. 

At a critical moment when the peninsula situation is spiraling out of control, Beijing and Moscow must demonstrate to Pyongyang, Washington and Seoul their resolution to safeguard the national interests and stability of the region by getting rid of the double-layered predicament through the method of dual track.

_The author is a professor at the College of Political Science and Public Management, Yanbian University_

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## senheiser

jhungary said:


> lol............
> 
> This is fun....
> 
> On one hand, the author saying Europe as a whole should maintain an "Independent" foreign policy. on the other hand, he is also preaching the Europe should join the Russia and China to "Counter" the balance of Pro-US Sunni Dominated Syria......
> 
> Did the writer actually know what he is saying? The two are contradicting each other. Joining "Russian" Bloc had they have one is not maintaining an "Independent" policy, otherwise EU leaning on NATO would also be called "Independent" FP....
> 
> But then this happened at the end of this Russian Insider Article
> 
> Did you enjoy this article? - Consider helping us!
> *Russia Insider depends on your donations: the more you give, the more we can do.*
> $25
> $50
> $500
> $750
> $100
> $250
> $1000
> Other amount
> 
> LOL.


its called capitalism of course it doesnt work for your propaganda media thats why they all have to merge with one another and constaley to beg to turn off the Adblock on their websites lolmao

Russia Insider also has its own store
Shop Russia | 100% authentic, premium Russian-made products – delivered.

funny how they self-substantivise themself without any state help or big investor. But of course you would have either way dismissed them if it would be owned by the Russian Government or a close friend of Putin in your wicked Western Mindset.


----------



## jhungary

senheiser said:


> its called capitalism of course it doesnt work for your propaganda media thats why they all have to merge with one another and constaley to beg to turn off the Adblock on their websites lolmao
> 
> Russia Insider also has its own store
> Shop Russia | 100% authentic, premium Russian-made products – delivered.
> 
> funny how they self-substantivise themself without any state help or big investor. But of course you would have either way dismissed them if it would be owned by the Russian Government or a close friend of Putin in your wicked Western Mindset.



lol, your post align to what Russian Insider said. Both are garbage.....

The only different is, people like you buy the garbage RI told you, but then no one buy your BS online......LOL...

Especially so when it was coming from a person who live in the west yakking about how Western Propaganda lol....You must be a fool to stay behind then.


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## TaiShang

Just discover new heights in bilateral relations...

This will drive neo-fascist elites crazy. The regular man on the street; I do not care what they think of China and Russia. It is their power elites that matter.

It is, nonetheless, refreshing to see the West (US) sees China and Russia increasingly through the same lens.

***

*Panic Reaches New Heights: 'Russia, China Planning Space Attacks on US'*

21:51 16.03.2016(updated 02:28 17.03.2016) Get short URL


*In a new campaign of budget-bolstering and fear-mongering, the Pentagon has warned of impending attacks on US satellites by Russia and China.*

"Adversaries are developing kinetic, directed-energy, and cyber tools to deny, degrade and destroy our space capabilities," Air Force Gen. John Hyten, head of the Air Force Space Command, told the US House Armed Service strategic forces subcommittee on Tuesday.






ESA/J.Huart

'Immediate Threats': US Air Force Strengthens Space Defense to Counter Russia, China


"They understand our reliance on space, and they understand the competitive advantage we derive from space. The need for vigilance has never been greater," he asserted.

Hyten has campaigned for a new Air Force project group, whose sole purpose would be to protect US space assets against foreign "aggression." On Tuesday, he warned that US Global Positioning System satellites are vulnerable to attack.

Lt. Gen. David Buck, commander of Joint Functional Component for Space, testified alongside Hyten.

"Simply stated, there isn’t a single aspect of our space architecture, to include the ground architecture, that isn’t at risk," Buck declared. "Russia views US dependency on space as an exploitable vulnerability and they are taking deliberate actions to strengthen their counter-space capabilities."

Buck also sounded alarms over China’s creation of its Strategic Support Forces, a space warfare and cyber warfare unit.







Get Lost, GPS: China Plans Launch of 40 Beidou Navigation Satellites


"China is developing, and has demonstrated, a wide range of counter-space technologies to include direct-ascent, kinetic-kill vehicles, co-orbital technologies that can disable or destroy a satellite, terrestrially-based communications jammers, and lasers that can blind or disable satellites," he said.

"Moreover, they continue to modernize their space programs to support near-real-time tracking of objects, command and control of deployed forces, and long-range precision strikes capabilities."

But alongside the chicken-little rhetoric that the sky is falling, the Pentagon officials could offer no proof, and only vague solutions to the dire threat they proclaim.

"A space offset strategy must employ a diverse set of resilience measures that complicate the technical, political, and force structure calculus of our adversaries, by arraying a complex set of response, with few overlapping vulnerabilities and a combination of known and ambiguous elements," Douglas Loverro, deputy assistant defense secretary for space policy, told Congress.

Much of this wild-eyed science-fiction hype appears to be driven by a fear of losing the current military space budget, in a period of financial drawdowns for the Pentagon. Last month, Hyten told Defense One that US Space Command keeps a close eye on Russian satellite positions, claiming that, "We watch where it goes all the time."







Similarly, the Air Force expressed anguish over China’s decision to shoot down one of its own weather satellites in 2007. While the move was a way to effectively dismantle a decaying satellite, Washington viewed the incident as a demonstration of Beijing’s offensive capabilities.

The US condemned North Korea’s recent satellite launch, leading the charge to impose additional UN sanctions on Pyongyang.

As the Pentagon relentlessly invents external "threats" at which to point fingers, Hyten admitted in December 2015 that the US may be unintentionally jamming its own satellites.

2015 saw 261 cases in which US satellite communications were jammed. When asked by Breaking Defense how many of those were conducted by China or Russia, Hyten, at the time, said, "I really don’t know. My guess is zero."

@vostok

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## TaiShang

*COSCO buys stake in big Greek port*

China's largest shipping company COSCO closed the deal to buy a majority stake in the Greece's biggest harbor, a move that would give the shipper control over one of the country's key thoroughfares into Europe.

The deal, signed on Friday between COSCO Shipping Corporation Ltd, a company merged between China Ocean Shipping Group Co and China Shipping Group Co, and Greece's state asset sales fund, will see a total payment of 368.5 million euros ($420 million) for a 67 percent stake, but it still needs final approval from the Greek government.

The deal, also the first overseas investment after the combination, was followed by a slight surge in shares of China COSCO Holdings Co, a COSCO subsidiary, that have witnessed 2.13 percent increase to 6.24 yuan ($0.96) on Monday.

Zhou Mi, a senior researcher fellow at the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Cooperation, said that the move would not only boost regional connectivity and cooperation between China and Europe, but also provide better services to Chinese companies.

"After gaining the holding stake in the port, I think that will also help COSCO design its customized service and utilize the management system in terms of container, routes and timetable to better serve the Chinese clients," he said.

*Zhou said the port, located in the Mediterranean Sea basin which links East Central Europe and Western Europe, will be of strategic importance for China, the world's second-largest economy, and help boost ties and business between the two regions.*

Chinese investment in Piraeus is seen as a key plank of the Belt and Road Initiative, which envisages creating the 21st century land and maritime equivalent of the Silk Road.

Premier Li Keqiang, on a visit to Greece in June 2014, said that Piraeus could be China's gateway to Europe.

*Piraeus Port is among the top 10 container ports in Europe. It has more than 1,500 employees and provides various services to more than 24,000 ships every year, earlier reports said.*

COSCO pledged to make good on promises to attract more investment to the port and the country.

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## Hamartia Antidote

Workers protest as Greece sells Piraeus Port to China COSCO






By Angeliki Koutantou

ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece sealed the sale of Piraeus Port Authority (OLPr.AT) to China COSCO Shipping Corporation (601919.SS) on Friday, while striking dockworkers protested against what will be the country's second major privatisation since late last year.

The sale of Greece's biggest port had been halted by the leftist government of Alexis Tsipras when it won elections in January last year but it was resumed under Greece's 86 billion-euro bailout deal agreed with its euro zone partners in August.

Dockworkers walked out on Friday and marched in central Athens to protest against the deal, which they fear will put their jobs at risk. Container terminals were shut as a result of the strike. Brief scuffles broke between police and some of the protesters

"This is not a concession, it's a giveaway of property belonging to the Greek people," Constantinos Tsourakis, a worker at the port, said. "Why should China be masters of the game at Piraeus and not the Greek state?"

Under the 368.5 million euro (£297.5 million) deal, signed on Friday by China COSCO with Greece's privatisation agency, COSCO will buy 51 percent of Piraeus for 280.5 million and the remaining 16 percent for 88 million after five years and once it completes investments of 350 million over the next decade.

China COSCO Chairman Xu Lirong, present at the signing, likened Piraeus Port to the 'Argo', the ship used by Jason and the Argonauts.

"Let the ship sail and bring the Golden Fleece," Xu said, adding that COSCO would invest in upgrading infrastructure at the port and that new jobs would be created.

"China COSCO Shipping ... will continue to be committed to Greek growth in the long-term," he said.

Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang invited his counterpart Tsipras to visit China, Tsipras' office said after the signing of the deal on Friday. The trip is planned for June.

The total value of the COSCO contract is 1.5 billion euros, including additional investment, as well as revenues of 410 million euros, dividends and interest Greece is expecting to collect under the 36-year concession deal between Piraeus Port and the government.

Privatisations, a major element of Greece's bailouts since 2010, have produced revenue of only 3.5 billion euros so far because of political resistance and bureaucratic hurdles.

Athens concluded a 1.2 billion euro airport leasing deal with Germany's Fraport (FRAG.DE) in December, hoping this would help the country meet this year's target for privatisation proceeds of 1.9 billion euros.

In January, Greece named COSCO as the sole bidder for Piraeus Port. Τhe port, a gateway to Asia, eastern Europe and north Africa, handled 16.8 million passengers and 3.6 million 20-foot equivalent units (TEUs) of containers in 2014.

COSCO has been operating one of the port's container terminals since 2009 and is investing 230 million euros to build a second container terminal at the port.



(Additional reporting by Lefteris Karagiannopoulos and Renee Maltezou; Editing by Jane Merriman)

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## Jlaw

Good move to help bring more jobs to the local Greeks and at the same time more Chinese products.

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> Good move to help bring more jobs to the local Greeks and at the same time more Chinese products.



That's just an extension of the OBOR, albeit a critical one in terms of access to vital European markets.

After China developed the port, it quickly rose to a prominent status among the ports in the world, registering high growth in volume and becoming one of the top ten ports in Europe. This has brought a lot of job to crisis stricken Greece, which has left so many Greek friends happy and elated.

This is a stage in China's global governance, from critique to reformer and now at the beginning of the creation stage.

China creates ideas and builds institutions to operationalize those ideas. This is what I call “alternative discourse making." This is more constructive than joining the Western discourse or responding to their libel and slander. Leave them and their discourse alone, they will dialectically die away in time.
*
That's why it is not advisable to respond them; because this will only help their discourse to remain relevant longer.*

Future belongs to those who sing a new tune. The US regime is fossilized.






*Greece seals sale of Piraeus Port to China COSCO; deal hailed by both countries*
11 Apr 2016

by ShippingHerald 

An agreement between Greece’s privatization fund HRADF and China COSCO Shipping Corporation for the sale of the majority stake in Piraeus Port Authority (PPA) was signed in Athens. The agreement has been hailed by both Greece and China as creating a win-win situation for all parties.

Under the deal, the Chinese investors will pay 280.5 million euros ($319.79 million) to HRADF for the initial acquisition of a 51 percent stake, while it will pay another 88 million euros within five years for the remaining 16 percent, provided it has implemented the agreed investments in the port.

The agreement was signed by HRADF chief Stergios Pitsiorlas and COSCO Hong Kong CFO Feng Jinhua in the presence of Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, China COSCO Shipping Chairman Xu Lirong and Chinese Ambassador to Greece Zou Xiaoli at the office of Greek Prime Minister.

*Welcoming Xu at his office, Tsipras said the agreement signing will “cut the ‘Silk Road’ shorter.”*

“We want to become a bridge between West and East. To build a reliable cooperation that can guarantee speed and efficiency in the transportation of goods from China to the Mediterranean and Europe”, Tsipras pointed out.

According to the Greek prime minister, the agreement sends a strong message to the global economic community for the recovery of the Greek economy.

“With the agreement there is an important opportunity for the two countries to develop a growth orientation that can benefit both,” Tsipras added.

Addressing distinguished guests after the ceremony at the Zappeion Exhibition Center in Athens, Xu said China COSCO Shipping has always been committed to harmonious development in Greece and a win-win situation for all parties.

In 2015, the container throughput of Piraeus Port increased to 3.36 million TEU from 880,000 TEU in 2010, while the global ranking of Piraeus Port also increased significantly from 93rd to 39th in terms of container capacity.

In addition, COSCO Shipping will not only operate a state-of-the-art port that will connect Asia and Europe trade, but will also create jobs and help invigorate the Greek economy.

“The development of PCT(Piraeus Container Terminal) has improved Piraeus Port’s core facilities, brought more than 1,200 new direct jobs to the people of Greece, increased Greece’s fiscal revenue and boosted demand for ship materials, and promoted the development of the local economy,” he added.

Referring to the provisions of the agreement, the China COSCO Shipping chairman pointed out the strategic benefits provided by China’s Belt and Road Initiative to help Piraeus Port become the Mediterranean’s largest container transit port.

On the Greek part, Greek Deputy Prime Minister Yannis Dragassakis said these agreements are of strategic nature as they are not temporary, but can generate prospects for the next decades.

Dragassakis hailed the historical strong Sino-Greek ties noting that the agreement opened the road for more investments in the industries of tourism, commerce and culture.

“The investment must be not only economically viable, but to have a positive impact to the society as well,” he said.

Apart from the Chinese imports, Dragassakis stressed that the cooperation can benefit also Greek exports.

“The marine route should and can be bidirectional, not only have imports to Greece and Europe, but also Greek exports to China,” Dragassakis said.

Chinese Ambassador to Greece Zou Xiaoli added that the agreement marked a historic milestone for Sino-Greek friendship and relationships at multiple levels.

“China and Greece, two ancient nations, are once again presented with the opportunity to promote human civilizations side by side,”Zou said.

The Chinese ambassador added that there was great potential for bilateral cooperation in underwater archaeology, cultural heritage restoration, film, press, publication and cultural industry among other fields.

For the advantages of the agreement talked also the mayor of Perama, the city where Cosco is located at the extreme western end of the port of Piraeus. “This investment will benefit both the local economy and national economy. It will have positive impact in the unemployment rates and in Greece’s prosperity,” Yannis Lagoudakis, mayor of Perama city, told Xinhua.

Since 2009, COSCO Shipping’s subsidiary PCT has been operating Piers II and III at Piraeus port under a 35-year concession agreement posting remarkable results, while PPA was running Pier I until today.

COSCO Shipping’s vision to turn Piraeus into a leading international transit hub for products and services from Asia to Europe has already attracted other major multinationals to the port which are cooperating with PCT to distribute their products in the region.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

in Asia, only China dare to chart the water that traditionally dominated by western countries such big corporation take over or mega risky project, we will succeed where western failed, I believe China and Greece will be success in this cooperation.

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## TaiShang

*Piraeus Port deal can lay foundations for new era of Sino-European trade, cooperation *
By George N. Tzogopoulos 


Approximately three months after the Greek Privatization Fund accepted the offer from COSCO for the sale of the Piraeus Port Authority, final details of the deal have started to be agreed.* The recent visit to Athens of the president of the newly established China COSCO Shipping Group, Xu Lirong, and his meeting with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and Greek President Prokopis Pavlopoulos confirmed the will of both sides to expand their smooth cooperation, which started in 2009.* As President Pavlopoulos said, "the new Piraeus investment is highly interesting not only in terms of its economic impact but also concerning relations between Greece and China." 

The Greek Privatization Fund has announced that COSCO will offer 368.5 million euros ($418.65 million) to buy the Piraeus Port Authority and assesses that the total value of the agreement could amount to 1.5 billion euros, including future investments to be made by the Chinese company in Piraeus. 

A recent study by the Foundation of Economic and Industrial Research in Greece attempted to quantify specific benefits. 

In particular, this study goes beyond the concession deal itself and fiscal revenues and examines positive results for other areas of the economy. 

It expects multinational companies to invest in the port and around Piraeus and considers the construction of logistic hubs and repair zones as well as the development of the cruise sector as natural parallel activities. 

*In that regard, the privatization of the Piraeus Port Authority could be an engine for growth leading to an economic output of 4 billion euros in 2025. *

More importantly, COSCO's involvement in Piraeus has a critical geopolitical impact because *it turns Greece's biggest port to a transhipment hub which is a gateway to Europe due to its geographical location.* 

In a period of economic calamity the Greek government should be continuously looking for similar opportunities that can make the country a point of reference in international relations and business. 

The Chinese side believes that COSCO's investment in Piraeus is a "win win" situation. This argumentation is reasonable. The implementation of the "One Belt, One Road" initiative will involve Greece's biggest port, especially if the China-Europe Land-Sea Express Route is constructed. 

Also, the Chinese shipping giant can rely on Piraeus to boost its profitability. 

*The recent acquisition of the Piraeus Port Authority is not merely a Sino-Greek affair. Its importance goes beyond the bilateral context and affects the evolution of Sino-European relations. *

In a period during which more Chinese investments in Europe are taking place, the Piraeus deal could be a model for both sides generating new Sino-European interest for partnerships. 

Optimism, however, should not hide existing problems. *The ongoing refugee crisis occasionally hinders the smooth operation of the Greek railway, causing serious delays in the transportation of goods from and to the Piraeus port.* In addition, some details of the concession agreement are still pending along with its ratification in the Greek Parliament. 

But experience from previous years suggests that small obstacles can be overcome and little differences can be balanced when appropriate patience is shown. 

_The author is a lecturer at the European Institute in Nice, France._

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## TaiShang

*China's export hub opens regular cargo train to Europe *
Xinhua, April 15, 2016







Carrying furniture, home appliances and machinery, the first train of the first regular railway freight service linking Guangdong Province and Germany waits for departure in Dongguan on Thursday. [Photo/Xinhua]

China on Thursday launched its first regular freight train service linking its southern province of Guangdong and Germany.

The first train, carrying furniture, home appliances and machinery, left Dongguan on Thursday afternoon and will pass through Russia, Belarus and Poland before reaching Duisburg in Germany.

The journey of more than 13,000 kilometers will take 19 days, 15 days shorter than sea freight, said a spokesperson with the Guangzhou Railway Corporation.

Guangdong is the leading Chinese province for foreign trade, with its exports accounting for about 30 percent of the national total.

The new line will see trains set out from Dongguan every Thursday.

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## TaiShang

On April 30, the Russian-based Kontinental Hockey League (KHL) is expected to formally accept the application of a new ice hockey team, HC Red Star Kunlun, for the 2016-17 season. This is notable because HC Red Star is going to be based out of Beijing, thus ushering in a new era for the KHL, which is in its ninth season, and bringing a new angle to Russian-Chinese relations.

The KHL was founded in 2008 with 21 of its 24 teams based in Russia (one each played out of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Latvia). However, from the start it had goals to move not just beyond the borders of Russia, but outside the former Soviet Union. For years, rumors abounded that teams from locations as diverse as Austria, Germany, Italy, Poland, and Switzerland would join, though none of that happened. Expansion did occur, and in 2012-2013 eight different countries were represented in the KHL, though all were from former Communist states.

It was not until the 2014-15 season that this changed, with the addition of Jokerit, an historic team based in Helsinki, Finland. Critics would note that this was only made possible by the purchase of the team by a group led by Boris Rotenberg, a close friend of Vladimir Putin. Indeed nearly all KHL teams are owned either by oligarchs or state-run corporations, or a mixture of both, though details on ownership have never been fully disclosed.

With no proper moves into Europe, the KHL’s first president, Alexander Medvedev (who also served as the director-general of Gazprom Export from 2006 to 2014), was removed from his position and replaced by Dmitry Chernyshenko, who had previously served as the director of the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics. Unlike his predecessor, Chernyshenko was not interested in moving into Europe. A combination of sanctions and general opposition from the European domestic ice hockey federations both contributed to this decision, so instead he looked east, toward Asia.

The choice to do so is rather logical. There are already two KHL teams located in the Russian Far East (in Khabarovsk and Vladivostok), and a team from the Russian-controlled Sakhalin Island joined Asia League Ice Hockey, which mainly consists of teams from Japan and South Korea, in 2014. There is also no denying that the chance to market themselves to a potential audience of 1.3 billion people is alluring to KHL officials, especially as the Chinese are not as hostile to Russia when compared to Europe.

However it is the increased focus of China on winter sports that seems to have truly spawned this decision. It is no coincidence that an ice hockey team was announced for Beijing only months after that city was awarded the 2022 Winter Olympics. With seven years until the start of the games, there is time to develop a taste for ice hockey in China. It would also serve as a means to improve the Chinese national team, which currently ranks 38th in the world and is playing in the fifth tier of the International Ice Hockey Federation’s (IIHF) World Championships.

A parallel can be seen in nearby South Korea; after being awarded the 2018 Winter Olympics, their national team was the target of a mass effort to improve their performance. In ten years they have moved up from 33rd overall to a high of 21st. While still not good enough for the 16-team elite division, South Korea’s team is close enough that they were granted an automatic place in the Olympics. If China does not see similar improvements, the IIHF is under no obligation to grant them a similar exemption, which could be highly embarrassing for the host nation.

Reports surrounding the new team imply that it will try and be bold for its premier season. Even before it has been officially confirmed, which is merely a technicality in the world of the KHL, HC Red Star has reportedly made offers to Ilya Kovalchuk, one of the most prominent Russian players in the world, and Mike Keenan, one of the most highly successful coaches. Kovalchuk is famous in North America for walking away in 2013 from the National Hockey League (NHL) and a 15-year, $100 million contract in order to play in Russia, while Keenan is the only coach to have won a championship in both the NHL and KHL. These rumours have been denied since they were first reported in late March, but it is no secret that Kovalchuk has had issues recently with his current team, SKA St. Petersburg, and Keenan has not coached since being relieved in October 2015.

It will be one of the KHL’s boldest moves to have a team based in Beijing when the season starts in August. The risk of such a move is immense for both the KHL and the Chinese. But if it is a success, it could see the start of much closer cooperation between the Russians and Chinese in terms of sports, and a drastic shift in Russia’s attempts to cultivate influence, from west to east.

http://russia-insider.com/en/russias-hockey-league-worlds-2nd-richest-coming-china/ri13897

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## TaiShang

*SCO Summit May Consider Russia-Mongolia-China Economic Corridor Project*
Sputnik

11:18 14.04.2016(updated 13:00 14.04.2016)

*This year’s Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) summit in Uzbekistan may consider the creation of a Russia-Mongolia-China economic corridor on the sidelines, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Thursday.*

ULAN BATOR (Sputnik) – The Uzbek capital of Tashkent hosts the six-member military, economic and political alliance’s next summit on June 23-24.

"We consider it important to make efforts to implement the ‘roadmap’ of cooperation between the three countries, as well as the rapid completion of the program to create the economic corridor between Russia, Mongolia and China, which could be put to the approval of the leaders on the sidelines of the SCO summit," Lavrov said in a speech at the Mongolian Foreign Ministry.

The heads of three states endorsed a roadmap of trilateral cooperation at a meeting in the Russian city of Ufa in July 2015. Lavrov said earlier on Thursday that its working group was finalizing the program for the establishment of the economic corridor.

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## LowPost

Great news, as an Ice Hockey fan I'll probably have to follow the KHL more regularly, though time could be an issue as I follow motorsports and footy (I'm a Kopite & Madridista) as well. Would be interesting to see whether, and if so, how and when HC Red Star Kunlun will develop into a top side in the league.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Both Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi and his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov on Monday voiced their opposition to internationalizing the South China Sea dispute, calling for settlement through negotiation and consultation.

Wang and Lavrov made the statements during a meeting between them in the day. Wang is visiting Moscow to attend the 14th meeting with participation of foreign ministers of China, Russia and India.

China is safeguarding legitimate rights and interests in South China Sea and is entitled to choose, in accordance with relevant laws, by itself ways for resolving disputes, said Wang, adding that Beijing's refusal of the Philippines' unilaterally-proposed arbitration case over the issue is a move meant to uphold the dignity and authority of the law.

Both China and Russia should stay on guard *against abuses of mandatory arbitration*, said Wang.

While speaking of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to China this year, Wang said China stands ready to work with the Russian side in preparing for the forthcoming visit and making it a great success, so as to ensure the high-level development of the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination.

The Chinese Foreign Minister also called for concerted efforts in supporting Uzbekistan in making a success of this year's summit of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which will be held in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, and advancing the steady development of the regional bloc.

For his part, Lavrov said Moscow and Beijing, in face of common challenges, have been upholding world peace through joint efforts and stepping up the expansion of such international organizations as the United Nations and the Group of 20, the international forum for the governments and central bank governors from 20 major economies.

The two sides also agreed to work together and pursue the denuclearization on the Korean peninsula and peace and stability in the region.

----------------------------------------

Abuse of mandatory arbitration, indeed China starts to question the legal basis of this international arbitration system, it became so abusive by making unilaterally decision without the consent of China regarding SCS...maybe it's about time for China to formulate a new approach to overwrite this international arbitration system as we did with World bank by creating our own system and organization.

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## Nan Yang

India didn't say aanything?

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nan Yang said:


> India didn't say anything?



After China and Russia made the statement, India wouldn't dare to make any statement regarding SCS as it did in front of US. Keep quiet is the best option knowing that Russia is not please with how India cozy with US. I think Russia's statement over SCS has sent a strong message to India that it will not remain neutral between China and India if the latter keeps tilting toward US at the expense of Russia.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

China offers to exchange technologies with Russia. China offers the technology needed to create radiation-resistant electronic space equipment. In return, China asks for a technology to build liquid rocket engines.

According to a senior source at the Russian Space Agency Roskosmos, "Chinese partners want to receive not only oxygen-kerosene rocket engines, but also the technology for their production. In return, they offer a technology for radiation-resistant space equipment. To be honest, this exchange does not seem fair to us," an official said.

According to the _Izvestia_ newspaper, Roskosmos earlier said that the supply of rocket engines to China was impossible due to the absence of appropriate regulatory framework.

"Unlike Russia, China is not a party to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). Therefore, the organization of cooperation in the field of rocketry requires the creation of a reliable legal framework to regulate obligations of the parties for the protection and non-proliferation of rocket technologies."

Noteworthy, mankind is on the verge of the most exciting era of space exploration since the launch of the first satellite to orbit in 1957. Yet, space exploration is suspiciously absent from pre-election campaigns of all candidates for US presidency.

- See more at: http://www.pravdareport.com/news/sc...2-russia_russia_space-0/#sthash.u42K6Urw.dpuf

-----------------

It's first time I ever heard of this kind of technology exchange  but nevertheless very interesting to see China open this kind of proposal. It's also good to know that China has something on hand (radiation resistance electronic technology) as exchange instead of been lack behind on every field and been an importer of technology.

I don't know how Russia define the fairness regarding this technology exchange, maybe one day when Russia realize that Radiation resistance electronic is equally vital as engine in order to achieve a complete successful space mission then China and Russia can strike a deal

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China offers to exchange technologies with Russia. China offers the technology needed to create radiation-resistant electronic space equipment. In return, China asks for a technology to build liquid rocket engines.
> 
> According to a senior source at the Russian Space Agency Roskosmos, "Chinese partners want to receive not only oxygen-kerosene rocket engines, but also the technology for their production. In return, they offer a technology for radiation-resistant space equipment. To be honest, this exchange does not seem fair to us," an official said.
> 
> According to the _Izvestia_ newspaper, Roskosmos earlier said that the supply of rocket engines to China was impossible due to the absence of appropriate regulatory framework.
> 
> "Unlike Russia, China is not a party to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). Therefore, the organization of cooperation in the field of rocketry requires the creation of a reliable legal framework to regulate obligations of the parties for the protection and non-proliferation of rocket technologies."
> 
> Noteworthy, mankind is on the verge of the most exciting era of space exploration since the launch of the first satellite to orbit in 1957. Yet, space exploration is suspiciously absent from pre-election campaigns of all candidates for US presidency.
> 
> - See more at: http://www.pravdareport.com/news/sc...2-russia_russia_space-0/#sthash.u42K6Urw.dpuf
> 
> -----------------
> 
> It's first time I ever heard of this kind of technology exchange  but nevertheless very interesting to see China open this kind of proposal. It's also good to know that China has something on hand (radiation resistance electronic technology) as exchange instead of been lack behind on every field and been an importer of technology.
> 
> I don't know how Russia define the fairness regarding this technology exchange, maybe one day when Russia realize that Radiation resistance electronic is equal vital as engine in order to achieve a space mission then China and Russia can strike a deal



I highly doubt China is so interested in Russia rocket engine. The YF-100 engine is very powerful and will debut for CZ-5 in June this year. Russia media still lives in cold war mentality where they think China is weak. Putin must send some KGB to teach these reporter a lesson. The gravest enemy Russian face is American. Those reporter shall spend more effort on American.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> I highly doubt China is so interested in Russia rocket engine. The YF-100 engine is very powerful and will debut for CZ-5 in June this year. Russia media still lives in cold war mentality where they think China is weak. Putin must send some KGB to teach these reporter a lesson. The gravest enemy Russian face is American. Those reporter shall send more effort on American.



Both China and Russia have engine and radiation electronic technology and both are capable to perform a successful space mission with their current technologies but if both can complemented each other's weakness such make engine and satellite more reliable or less costly then I think it's worth for a technology exchange discussion....Russia didn't say it don't want the exchange but to question the fairness of the deal.

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Both China and Russia have engine and radiation electronic technology and both are capable to perform a successful space mission with their current technologies but if both can complemented each other's weakness such make engine and satellite more reliable or less costly then I think it's worth for a technology exchange discussion....Russia didn't say it don't want the exchange but to question the fairness of the deal.



China is moving perfectly in space development. From heavy launch rocket to space station. Beidou II, High resolution real time satelite imaging camera and top end spy satelite and supported by strong fund. Unlike Russia lacking of investment, funds and drain of talent. China space technology has advance so many years without foreign help. So what's make any help now, a different?

That article is just more of a sour grape from old time cold war mentality reporter as I say.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> China is moving perfectly in space development. From heavy launch rocket to space station. Beidou II, High resolution real time satelite imaging camera and top end spy satelite and supported by strong fund. Unlike Russia lacking of investment, funds and drain of talent. China space technology has advance so many years without foreign help. So what's make any help now, a different?
> 
> That article is just more of a sour grape from old time cold war mentality reporter as I say.



Despite of lacking of fund Russia is still more advance than China in some technologies fields, that's undeniable facts. And to answer your question, it will make difference if this engine is bigger, more powerful, more reliable, less costly ...something that we don't have...then it's worth...I don't think China is interested to exchange for something that worst than what we current possess..

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia, India seek bigger role in global affairs *
Xinhua, April 19, 2016




Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi (L), Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov (C) and Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj attend the *14th Meeting of the Foreign Ministers of China, Russia and India, in Moscow*, capital of Russia, on April 18, 2016. [Xinhua/Bai Xueqi]


Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Monday suggested that China, Russia and India expand cooperation *so that the three-party mechanism will play a bigger role in global affairs.*

Wang, who is visiting Moscow attending the 14th trilateral meeting of foreign ministers, made the remarks when he had a meeting with his Russian and Indian counterparts Monday.

The ever-changing global and regional circumstances have underlined the need for closer communication among the three countries and more contributions from them to the settlement of complicated hot-button issues, said Wang.

As the world's major emerging markets, Wang said, China, Russia and India established the cooperative mechanism not only out of the trend of multi-polarity, but also the need for common progress, which is helpful to create a more positive environment for the development of developing countries.

The Chinese foreign minister also said to put into full play their potential, the three nations should make more efforts to reform their economic structure, encourage innovation and transform industrial patterns, which will further promote their cooperation in all areas, from politics to economy and trade, and then to security and culture,

On global economic governance, Wang called for gaining more say for emerging markets through frameworks of the Group of 20 and BRICS, saying that China is ready to take the opportunity of this year's G20 summit to be held in Hangzhou, east China's Zhejiang province, to exchange views with Russia and India on new ways to speed up world economic recovery. BRICS groups Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

*Based on mutual understanding and trust, the three parties agreed to keep working together to fight against such evils as terrorism, piracy, and illegal drug smuggling, while facilitating the political solutions to regional hot-button issues, particularly the crises in Syria and Ukraine, as well as the peace process in Afghanistan and the Middle East.*

The Chinese diplomat stressed that cooperation among Beijing, Moscow and New Delhi is an open mechanism, not targeting any third party and having no intention to ally to confront others.

The trilateral mechanism will continue to play a positive and constructive role in improving global stability and regional development, and to promote democracy of international relations, Wang said.

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## TaiShang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> After China and Russia made the statement, India wouldn't dare to make any statement regarding SCS as it did in front of US. Keep quiet is the best option knowing that Russia is not please with how India cozy with US. I think Russia's statement over SCS has sent a strong message to India that it will not remain neutral between China and India if the latter keeps tilting toward US at the expense of Russia.



Russia's support on SCS issue is very critical. Perhaps the next step should be to organize annual drills in SCS, similar to the one held every year in ECS under the title of Joint Sea.

This will send a strong message to every related actors as to the ultimate shape of alliances in the region. No country, basically, can team up with Russia at the cost of China's vital interests.

Ukraine Crisis, thankfully, pushed China-Russia partnership into levels never seen before.

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## 帅的一匹

Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.

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## TaiShang

wanglaokan said:


> Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.



China turned down G2 proposal with the US.

But I believe China will be more open to the idea of an alternative global structuring under a G3 scheme.

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## 帅的一匹

TaiShang said:


> China turned down G2 proposal with the US.
> 
> But I believe China will be more open to the idea of an alternative global structuring under a G3 scheme.


G2 is a conspiracy set up by Yankees to isolate China. We prefer a multi- pillar world.

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## Hellfire

wanglaokan said:


> Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.



I would stress on the underlined part. Personally for me, things would be much better with establishment of permanent peace with China by settlement of boundary issue with freeze of present locations under respective controls as the final boundary. There are tremendous opportunities to be taken together than at variations.

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## 帅的一匹

China shall respect India's rights in Indian Ocean, and contra versa. I would rather believe India than USA. I hope India could keep certain distance with USA, which render India to excercise more influence in the multi pillar world.



hellfire said:


> I would stress on the underlined part. Personally for me, things would be much better with establishment of permanent peace with China by settlement of boundary issue with freeze of present locations under respective controls as the final boundary. There are tremendous opportunities to be taken together than at variations.


Indians don't trust Uncle Sam in their deep side of heart, neither do China and Russia. If China and India can tick out the border problem, it will improve the bilateral relationship. The trick Uncle Sam played is to stir up the relationship between Asians and take advantage of it. India now is adopting a balance foreign policy between China and USA. Modi is smart. Now Russia perform as bridge between China and India, it's a good sign.

The current visit paid to China by Mr Parrikar is a. Strong signal sent out by Modi government that: India is no ones puppet. It sure win China's respect, and China will also redefine the relationship with India.

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## Nan Yang

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> After China and Russia made the statement, India wouldn't dare to make any statement regarding SCS as it did in front of US. Keep quiet is the best option knowing that Russia is not please with how India cozy with US. I think Russia's statement over SCS has sent a strong message to India that it will not remain neutral between China and India if the latter keeps tilting toward US at the expense of Russia.


That includes Vietnam too.
That's a big favor to China.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Russia's support on SCS issue is very critical. Perhaps the next step should be to organize annual drills in SCS, similar to the one held every year in ECS under the title of Joint Sea.
> 
> This will send a strong message to every related actors as to the ultimate shape of alliances in the region. No country, basically, can team up with Russia at the cost of China's vital interests.
> 
> Ukraine Crisis, thankfully, pushed China-Russia partnership into levels never seen before.



Facing US containment with the help of their European allies and Japan, China and Russia can't longer afford to stay neutral or playing solo against US, I think both already realized that. If both form an unofficial alliance under the name of strategic partner and defend each other's core interest (SCS or Ukraine), they will be able to deter US from been assertive.



Nan Yang said:


> That includes Vietnam too.
> That's a big favor to China.



The message is not only for Vietnam but all American allies on this region such Japan, Russia know that it can't count on insignificant Vietnam to counter US, China is a big counterweight, only by cooperate with China will tilt the balance of the power in favor of Russia (两害相权取其轻，两利相权取其重).

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## kbd-raaf

Man oh man, Sushma Swaraj is tiny.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Indeed this G3 is feasible since all these three are from BRIC, G3 is more for international politic to keep US from dictating this world while BRIC is more for economy.



kbd-raaf said:


> Man oh man, Sushma Swaraj is tiny.



But she got a big brain

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## srshkmr

I would Love to See G3 Flourish  Both India and China are mature enough to solve their Issues with dialogue

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## Daniel808

Thanks Russian Brother 
China and Russia is one word in South China Sea case.

So, Russia dump Viets and Indian for China.
Very Nice Choice !

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## Beidou2020

Waste of time. BRICS is dead. It lasted about 5 years and the world changed and it became irrelevant.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

Beidou202 Post: 8253854 said:


> Waste of time. BRICS is dead. It lasted about 5 years and the world changed and it became irrelevant.


How it is dead?? Can you enlighten me, how economic priorities can be dead in economic warfare??


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## 911

Allying with US helped no one ever. US only thinks about their own people and its major ally British. Rest of their so called allies lose more than they get from US. Joining hands with China is the future. China, India and Russia need better communication with each other.

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## 帅的一匹

Beidou2020 said:


> Waste of time. BRICS is dead. It lasted about 5 years and the world changed and it became irrelevant.


China and India is gonna be the leading force of world economy, never doubt it.

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## nair

To be honest G3 is going to be the best possible group for Asia....... Imagine the power of this 3 big countries together........ If the relationships are better among this 3 other countries in the region will also get benefited from it.......If Russia plays a big role this is possible.......

But the chances of it materializing is next to "0"....

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## Spectre

nair said:


> To be honest G3 is going to be the best possible group for Asia....... Imagine the power of this 3 big countries together........ If the relationships are better among this 3 other countries in the region will also get benefited from it.......If Russia plays a big role and this is possible.......
> 
> But the chances of it materializing is next to "0"....



G3 is a diversionary tactic, that's all. 

I say we look at the deeds and not the words and here in lies the kicker -

1. India enjoys limited patronage from Russia, Israel and France.

2. US and UK are supposedly neutral but often have mischievous anti-india policy when it suits them. 

3. China and Pakistan are openly hostile and are pursuing anti-India policy at all fronts. 

4. Rest are irrelevant strategically.

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## barbarosa

India can play a good role but if it want.


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## nair

Spectre said:


> 1. India enjoys limited patronage from Russia, Israel and France



That is why i said the chances of it becoming a reality is next to "0"...... Well Russia would be fine with this..... But it will not go down well with israel and france, because this alliance will turn against US interests....


Spectre said:


> 2. US and UK are supposedly neutral but often have mischievous anti-india policy when it suits them.


We all know why they support India these days....... We are using each other in what ever way we can.... and both look at each other with certain amount of mistrust.... Any possible alliance (G3), uncle sam wont sit idle and let it happen.....



Spectre said:


> 3. China and Pakistan are openly hostile and are pursuing anti-India policy at all fronts



This is going to be the biggest thorn (China - India relationship) in the G3........ When it comes to Pakistan, it will not be a big problem and will be dealt with.....



Spectre said:


> 4. Rest are irrelevant strategically


Nato??????

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## Spectre

nair said:


> That is why i said the chances of it becoming a reality is next to "0"...... Well Russia would be fine with this..... But it will not go down well with israel and france, because this alliance will turn against US interests....
> 
> We all know why they support India these days....... We are using each other in what ever way we can.... and both look at each other with certain amount of mistrust.... Any possible alliance (G3), uncle sam wont sit idle and let it happen.....
> 
> 
> 
> This is going to be the biggest thorn (China - India relationship) in the G3........ When it comes to Pakistan, it will not be a big problem and will be dealt with.....
> 
> 
> Nato??????



Russia is on a self destructive course so much so that I feel sorry for them. With Oil Money, Strong Defence export and relatively low pop density they had the potential to be the next Germany but narcissistic leadership, corruption, nepotism and misplaced sense of importance have destroyed all potential leaving them with a strong exterior shell but weak underbelly. 

France is usually independent and does not rely on US for much hence the strings though present are extremely slack. 

Israel is a tricky little thing and for factors too lengthy to go into have a one sided relationship largely with USA. In short they are the only nation which takes US money with both hands and gives them nothing. 

Uncle SAM does not have much say in formation of G3 but frankly both India and China are at odds when it come to future trajectory due to resource competition. Russia-China block is already functional and thriving and serves most of the purpose. 

NATO is nothing but US + . So for all intents and purposes when I talk about US, I mean NATO. Now constituents of NATO are a different beast and some countries matter more than other like France, Germany and UK.

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## mpk1988

We will continue our status quo and try to maintain healthy relationships with all. That's why we said "no" to a joint patrolling in SCS and other stuff.

Historically also, we have never been warmongering, or prone to barbarism like looting, evangelism etc, unlike others.

The only difference now, compared to a few decades ago, is that we are big enough economically and militarily to have an active say. That's all.

Also, I would say that Chinese netizens shouldn't be so distrustful of the U.S. A healthy relationship without conflicts between the U.S, Russia and China would by itself make global peace much more feasible. People should top believing all the internet conspiracy crap about the U.S. You stay powerful long enough, you will become the villain. It's true for every big empire/nation. China will slowly and surely realise that. It's only natural.

Maybe the middle east and parts of greater middle east/their sphere of influence etc would still be tumultuous.. but then.. I don't think even if an all powerful magical bearded fairy god existed, those regions would remain peaceful..

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Spectre said:


> G3 is a diversionary tactic, that's all.
> 
> I say we look at the deeds and not the words and here in lies the kicker -
> 
> 1. India enjoys limited patronage from Russia, Israel and France.
> 
> 2. US and UK are supposedly neutral but often have mischievous anti-india policy when it suits them.
> 
> 3. China and Pakistan are openly hostile and are pursuing anti-India policy at all fronts.
> 
> 4. Rest are irrelevant strategically.



G3 is not a diversionary tactic but a mechanism that is good for China, Russia and India when they need to fight for common interest or use it to deter western from undesirable action against respective countries, it's not mean to form a permanent alliance but an umbrella that all three can feel safer against western's pressure tactic.

As for China and India relation, I think the sentiment is mutual, we feel much anti-China as Indians feel anti-India regarding both nations, we can have a long exhaustive debate but we will never able tor fix any problem...the best way is to stay as frienemy for now which be friend and enemy as the same time.

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## Spectre

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> G3 is not a diversionary tactic but a mechanism that is good for China, Russia and India when they need to fight for common interest or use it to deter western from undesirable action against respective countries, it's not mean to form a permanent alliance but an umbrella that all three can feel safer against western's pressure tactic.
> 
> As for China and India relation, I think the sentiment is mutual, we feel much anti-China as Indians feel anti-India regarding both nations, we can have a long exhaustive debate but we will never able tor fix any problem...the best way is to stay as frienemy for now which be friend and enemy as the same time.



I agree and thanks for responding to my posts in a respectful manner. I usually don't get sensible replies when quoted by Chinese members.

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## barbarosa

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> G3 is not a diversionary tactic but a mechanism that is good for China, Russia and India when they need to fight for common interest or use it to deter western from undesirable action against respective countries, it's not mean to form a permanent alliance but an umbrella that all three can feel safer against western's pressure tactic.
> 
> As for China and India relation, I think the sentiment is mutual, we feel much anti-China as Indians feel anti-India regarding both nations, we can have a long exhaustive debate but we will never able tor fix any problem...the best way is to stay as frienemy for now which be friend and enemy as the same time.


USA is trying for making nest in India.


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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> *China, Russia, India seek bigger role in global affairs *
> Xinhua, April 19, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi (L), Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov (C) and Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj attend the *14th Meeting of the Foreign Ministers of China, Russia and India, in Moscow*, capital of Russia, on April 18, 2016. [Xinhua/Bai Xueqi]
> 
> 
> Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Monday suggested that China, Russia and India expand cooperation *so that the three-party mechanism will play a bigger role in global affairs.*
> 
> Wang, who is visiting Moscow attending the 14th trilateral meeting of foreign ministers, made the remarks when he had a meeting with his Russian and Indian counterparts Monday.
> 
> The ever-changing global and regional circumstances have underlined the need for closer communication among the three countries and more contributions from them to the settlement of complicated hot-button issues, said Wang.
> 
> As the world's major emerging markets, Wang said, China, Russia and India established the cooperative mechanism not only out of the trend of multi-polarity, but also the need for common progress, which is helpful to create a more positive environment for the development of developing countries.
> 
> The Chinese foreign minister also said to put into full play their potential, the three nations should make more efforts to reform their economic structure, encourage innovation and transform industrial patterns, which will further promote their cooperation in all areas, from politics to economy and trade, and then to security and culture,
> 
> On global economic governance, Wang called for gaining more say for emerging markets through frameworks of the Group of 20 and BRICS, saying that China is ready to take the opportunity of this year's G20 summit to be held in Hangzhou, east China's Zhejiang province, to exchange views with Russia and India on new ways to speed up world economic recovery. BRICS groups Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.
> 
> *Based on mutual understanding and trust, the three parties agreed to keep working together to fight against such evils as terrorism, piracy, and illegal drug smuggling, while facilitating the political solutions to regional hot-button issues, particularly the crises in Syria and Ukraine, as well as the peace process in Afghanistan and the Middle East.*
> 
> The Chinese diplomat stressed that cooperation among Beijing, Moscow and New Delhi is an open mechanism, not targeting any third party and having no intention to ally to confront others.
> 
> The trilateral mechanism will continue to play a positive and constructive role in improving global stability and regional development, and to promote democracy of international relations, Wang said.



I don't think India is ready to let go of US and side with Russia as what we have seen recently. Inf act India is ready to dump Russian weapons for American if the deal goes through.

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## SrNair

wanglaokan said:


> Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.



India will always gives prominence to her own permanent interests .
Having said that ,we believes our future and stability depends upon our relations with our neighbours especially with PRC .
May be we are competitiors but we need each other .And China is the main power in this group several times stronger than India and Russia.

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## Echo_419

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> G3 is not a diversionary tactic but a mechanism that is good for China, Russia and India when they need to fight for common interest or use it to deter western from undesirable action against respective countries, it's not mean to form a permanent alliance but an umbrella that all three can feel safer against western's pressure tactic.
> 
> As for China and India relation, I think the sentiment is mutual, we feel much anti-China as Indians feel anti-India regarding both nations, we can have a long exhaustive debate but we will never able tor fix any problem...the best way is to stay as frienemy for now which be friend and enemy as the same time.



I agree a mutually beneficial relationship can be established between the 2 countries. China is no angel but is still far better than US which can destabilize India anytime it wants

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## SrNair

wanglaokan said:


> China shall respect India's rights in Indian Ocean, and contra versa. I would rather believe India than USA. I hope India could keep certain distance with USA, which render India to excercise more influence in the multi pillar world.
> 
> 
> Indians don't trust Uncle Sam in their deep side of heart, neither do China and Russia. If China and India can tick out the border problem, it will improve the bilateral relationship. The trick Uncle Sam played is to stir up the relationship between Asians and take advantage of it. India now is adopting a balance foreign policy between China and USA. Modi is smart. Now Russia perform as bridge between China and India, it's a good sign.
> 
> The current visit paid to China by Mr Parrikar is a. Strong signal sent out by Modi government that: India is no ones puppet. It sure win China's respect, and China will also redefine the relationship with India.



Russians and Chinese knows the real policy of India .You are absolutely right .Diplomatic tussle between India and US is the best example of that .We wont trust them .How can we whole heartedly support a nation that sent a CBG to threaten us ?
US will always like the degradation of Asian powers ,so that they can take advantage from it . But India or China cant afford of the degradation of their neighbours .



barbarosa said:


> USA is trying for making nest in India.



We also knows that .But we cant provoke them unnecessarily .Perhaps Russia or China can do that because they are in much better but we are not.But still we will follow that independent policy.

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## 帅的一匹

Echo_419 said:


> I agree a mutually beneficial relationship can be established between the 2 countries. China is no angel but is still far better than US which can destabilize India anytime it wants


USA wanna destabilize China and Russian and put everyone in Asia under its pawn. We shall not be utilized by Yankees to contain each other if we still value independence. They still think they are master and Asians are slaves, it never change.

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## AbRaj

wanglaokan said:


> China shall respect India's rights in Indian Ocean, and contra versa. I would rather believe India than USA. I hope India could keep certain distance with USA, which render India to excercise more influence in the multi pillar world.
> 
> 
> Indians don't trust Uncle Sam in their deep side of heart, neither do China and Russia. If China and India can tick out the border problem, it will improve the bilateral relationship. The trick Uncle Sam played is to stir up the relationship between Asians and take advantage of it. India now is adopting a balance foreign policy between China and USA. Modi is smart. Now Russia perform as bridge between China and India, it's a good sign.
> 
> The *current visit paid to China by Mr Parrikar is a. Strong signal sent out by Modi government that: India is no ones puppet.* It sure win China's respect, and China will also redefine the relationship with India.


No its direct to China as "there is still some time left , settle the disputes and make peace. Don't force us to become your enemy which will be disastrous to both"



SrNair said:


> Russians and Chinese knows the real policy of India .You are absolutely right .Diplomatic tussle between India and US is the best example of that .We wont trust them .*How can we whole heartedly support a nation that sent a CBG to threaten us* ?
> US will always like the degradation of Asian powers ,so that they can take advantage from it . But India or China cant afford of the degradation of their neighbours .
> 
> 
> 
> We also knows that .But we cant provoke them unnecessarily .Perhaps Russia or China can do that because they are in much better but we are not.But still we will follow that independent policy.


And how can you trust a nation which invaded your state



Echo_419 said:


> I agree a mutually beneficial relationship can be established between the 2 countries. China is no angel but is still far better than US which can destabilize India anytime it wants


Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??



Echo_419 said:


> I agree a mutually beneficial relationship can be established between the 2 countries. China is no angel but is still far better than US which can destabilize India anytime it wants


Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??

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## SBUS-CXK

Freemasonry on non Anglo-Saxon nation crackdown never stop! While China and India and Russia is the largest threat of freemasonry. USA do their best to provoke the contradiction between us, in an attempt to enable us to war with each other. Never threaten their... However, they underestimate the wisdom of the ancient civilization.

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## Echo_419

AbRaj said:


> Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??
> 
> 
> Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??



Not even remotely. What I am trying to say is that We need a multi-polar world in order to keep US influence in check


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## AbRaj

Echo_419 said:


> Not even remotely. What I am trying to say is that We need a multi-polar world in order to keep US influence in check



But First we need to know our real enemies 
And Unipolar, bipolar, multipolar are pure nonsense 
A multipolar world is more unstable and there are more chances of conflict of interests and wars


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## SBUS-CXK

TaiShang said:


> China turned down G2 proposal with the US.
> 
> But I believe China will be more open to the idea of an alternative global structuring under a G3 scheme.


China is very aware of their strength, we can not equal with the United States. We are just in the developing world. So opposed to G2. Even if the G3, should also be dominated by Russia. We will not do leader... This is the result of a Chinese old saying.

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## Echo_419

AbRaj said:


> But First we need to know our real enemies
> And Unipolar, bipolar, multipolar are pure nonsense
> A multipolar world is more unstable and there are more chances of conflict of interests and wars



Till now we have lived in a unipolar world & personally, it has not been the most stable period in our history. I would rather have multiple powers keeping each other in check rather than one single power(be it China or Russia or US)

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## Zhang Fan

Echo_419 said:


> Till now we have lived in a unipolar world & personally, it has not been the most stable period in our history. I would rather have multiple powers keeping each other in check rather than one single power(be it China or Russia or US)


Don't you think you will sleep at night more easily if usa keeps being the single power?I'm afraid if it was russia that dominates,having a good sleep would be a lofty dream forever! You gotta gear up even when sleeping on bed in case of russians jumping out of nowhere and annexing a huge chulk of lands off you



Echo_419 said:


> Till now we have lived in a unipolar world & personally, it has not been the most stable period in our history. I would rather have multiple powers keeping each other in check rather than one single power(be it China or Russia or US)


Between arrogant world police and stark mafia,the world prefers being patronized by the arrogant than being directly ripped off by maifa I suppose

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## SrNair

AbRaj said:


> No its direct to China as "there is still some time left , settle the disputes and make peace. Don't force us to become your enemy which will be disastrous to both"
> 
> 
> And how can you trust a nation which invaded your state
> 
> 
> Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??
> 
> 
> Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??



China is our neighbour .So they have to restrain themselves .Like we did or doing in the case of Pakistan .
But US dont have any such limitations .Destruction of an Asian nation wont affect them .They are thousands miles away.

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## Kompromat

India sees itself as a "superior" state to China and Russia, they have already picked their side when they signed the Logistical Support Agreement with the United States. They are now officially engaged.



wanglaokan said:


> Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.

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## AbRaj

Echo_419 said:


> Till now we have lived in a unipolar world & personally, it has not been the most stable period in our history. I would rather have multiple powers keeping each other in check rather than one single power(be it China or Russia or US)


You are ignoring the whole cold war and the destruction it brought to other countries


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## AbRaj

SrNair said:


> China is our neighbour .So they have to restrain themselves .Like we did or doing in the case of Pakistan .
> But US dont have any such limitations .Destruction of an Asian nation wont affect them .They are thousands miles away.


On flip side neighborhood bring more conflict of interests and history is littered with such examples


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## Echo_419

Horus said:


> India sees itself as a "superior" state to China and Russia, they have already picked their side when they signed the Logistical Support Agreement with the United States. They are now officially engaged.




Signing an agreement with the US = Seeing one as superior to other countries 
Our cooperation with the United states is only to maintain Stability & peace in the region. We have not signed any agreement which binds us in a US coalition, unlike some other countries who openly join US sponsored alliances to spread instability in the region.



AbRaj said:


> You are ignoring the whole cold war and the destruction it brought to other countries



Would you prefer 2 rival bullies keeping each other in check or 1 single bully dominating the entire class

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## AbRaj

Echo_419 said:


> Signing an agreement with the US = Seeing one as superior to other countries
> Our cooperation with the United states is only to maintain Stability & peace in the region. We have not signed any agreement which binds us in a US coalition, unlike some other countries who openly join US sponsored alliances to spread instability in the region.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you prefer 2 rival bullies keeping each other in check or 1 single bully dominating the entire class


It doesn't matter what anyone want, 
World don't operate on anyones likings


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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> India sees itself as a "superior" state to China and Russia, they have already picked their side when they signed the Logistical Support Agreement with the United States. They are now officially engaged.


They will not easily side with USA, they are in the fence now. Russi still has huge influence on India. Actually the Indian foreign minister brought up several times the current China veto on ban of Muhamad army leader Azhar in the G3 bilateral talk, she request China not to apply double standard in the filed of counter terrorism. China India still has long way to go. India is not superior, it's a neighbour of frienemy. Both China and India will keep a close eye on each other, and move accordingly.

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## Sully3

BRICS is dead in the water so how does one expect G3 to work. 

Brazil economy never took off like how it was predicted 5 years ago. Plus there is rampant corruption their and even the PM is being forced to resign over the petrobras scandal 

Russia has plans of itself to have much more influence in the SE Asia with its sights set on Iran and Pakistan 

India on hand is spending billions on US army equipment and buying ships and planes rapidly, to counter Chinas might military power 

China is going through its own financial difficulties after years of growth but that was bound to happen sooner or later. The main thing is the experts that predicted Chinas growth slowing down and same ones that are saying that they will get through this. 

Dont really see what South Africa brings to the table. Ghana and Nigeria in the next few years will have more influence in Africa then SA because of the untapped oil, gas and gold resources in both countries


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## 帅的一匹

India need to contain China, it also can't afford China being toppled. When China is down, Indians can't swim happily in the Indian Ocean cause they are no more useful to USA. If Modi can't understand the simple reason, he won't be the PM of India.

A subtle balance between China and USA will maximize India's national interest.

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## dichoi

Russia is again become a leader. Congratulation for Mr. Ivan.

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## TaiShang

kbd-raaf said:


> Man oh man, Sushma Swaraj is tiny.



That's normal. She is a lady.

Mr. Lavrov appears gigantic, LOL. No wonder, he is, in my opinion, the most influential foreign minister at the moment.

Mr. Yi is more scholarly.



Beidou2020 said:


> Waste of time. BRICS is dead. It lasted about 5 years and the world changed and it became irrelevant.



I think, economically, BRICS is pretty much viable. But, to remain relevant further into future, I agree, the organization needs to be further institutionalized and start to cover broader issue areas.

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## Djinn

It is a good initiative, but we all know that India will be more aligned with the US.


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## TaiShang

*'Russia, China and India Building Multipolar World' That Neo-Cons Don’t Get*

© Sputnik/ Ramil Sitdikov
16:34 20.04.2016(updated 19:35 20.04.2016) Get short URL

*The meeting of the foreign ministers of Russia, India and China in Moscow suggests continuing rapprochement between the three countries. However this union seems to agitate American and Japanese neo-conservatives, according to the former Chinese diplomat Wang Yusheng.*





© Sputnik/ Vitaliy Ankov
Russia-China Military Cooperation Considerably Grows in Recent Years

However, according to the diplomat these fears are abnormal and baseless because in reality the strategic partnership of Moscow, Delhi and Beijing will only benefit the multipolar world; online publication Global Times reported the diplomat as saying.


The strategic partnership between these three countries was first brought to light back in 1998 by then Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov. However, many did not share his point of view, considered it impossible and did not give it much importance.

However, his idea played quite an important role and gradually, meeting by meeting, these ties have evolved and expanded.

For many years now, the whole world is looking favorably on the partnership between Russia, India and China, which reinforces a multipolar system and contributes to stability in the region and around the world, the Global Times reported.

Russia, India and China are the largest countries in the world in terms of population and GDP. Russia inherited the power of the Soviet Union and has not lost its status as a great superpower; it is currently successfully recovering its position in the world.

India traditionally prefers not to accede to any alliances and China adheres to independence in diplomacy with both the countries moving forward at an impressive rate in economic growth.

“Hence, all three countries have a fairly high credibility on the world stage and it is quite obvious that they are making an important contribution to the multipolar world.”

All of these factors are a matter of concern for the United States. These countries are at a “strategic crossroads” for the US.

China, can resist the “Americanization;” Russia, whose president did not follow in the steps of his predecessors and did not go towards West and even India, which, for the US and Japan would be an ideal participant for “Asian NATO,” did not want to become part of the block.

“If the US threw aside its Cold War views, it would realize that Moscow, New Delhi and China are pursuing their cooperation in accordance to the call of the new epoch. This is quite a positive and healthy relationship that is beneficial for the development of the whole world,” Yusheng said.

“If all these neo-cons are so concerned about the happiness of mankind, why don’t they try and join the ranks themselves,” the diplomat concluded.

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## Ind4Ever

wanglaokan said:


> Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.


There is no way India can be comfortable with China better than US. It's not gonna happen. While India keep getting FDI from all around the world China can invest too but this not gonna stop our posture at our borders which I believe turning into offensive by each passing day



TaiShang said:


> *'Russia, China and India Building Multipolar World' That Neo-Cons Don’t Get*
> 
> © Sputnik/ Ramil Sitdikov
> 16:34 20.04.2016(updated 19:35 20.04.2016) Get short URL
> 
> *The meeting of the foreign ministers of Russia, India and China in Moscow suggests continuing rapprochement between the three countries. However this union seems to agitate American and Japanese neo-conservatives, according to the former Chinese diplomat Wang Yusheng.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Sputnik/ Vitaliy Ankov
> Russia-China Military Cooperation Considerably Grows in Recent Years
> 
> However, according to the diplomat these fears are abnormal and baseless because in reality the strategic partnership of Moscow, Delhi and Beijing will only benefit the multipolar world; online publication Global Times reported the diplomat as saying.
> 
> 
> The strategic partnership between these three countries was first brought to light back in 1998 by then Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov. However, many did not share his point of view, considered it impossible and did not give it much importance.
> 
> However, his idea played quite an important role and gradually, meeting by meeting, these ties have evolved and expanded.
> 
> For many years now, the whole world is looking favorably on the partnership between Russia, India and China, which reinforces a multipolar system and contributes to stability in the region and around the world, the Global Times reported.
> 
> Russia, India and China are the largest countries in the world in terms of population and GDP. Russia inherited the power of the Soviet Union and has not lost its status as a great superpower; it is currently successfully recovering its position in the world.
> 
> India traditionally prefers not to accede to any alliances and China adheres to independence in diplomacy with both the countries moving forward at an impressive rate in economic growth.
> 
> “Hence, all three countries have a fairly high credibility on the world stage and it is quite obvious that they are making an important contribution to the multipolar world.”
> 
> All of these factors are a matter of concern for the United States. These countries are at a “strategic crossroads” for the US.
> 
> China, can resist the “Americanization;” Russia, whose president did not follow in the steps of his predecessors and did not go towards West and even India, which, for the US and Japan would be an ideal participant for “Asian NATO,” did not want to become part of the block.
> 
> “If the US threw aside its Cold War views, it would realize that Moscow, New Delhi and China are pursuing their cooperation in accordance to the call of the new epoch. This is quite a positive and healthy relationship that is beneficial for the development of the whole world,” Yusheng said.
> 
> “If all these neo-cons are so concerned about the happiness of mankind, why don’t they try and join the ranks themselves,” the diplomat concluded.


It's true all three are powerful in their region and of course willing to become more powerful globally. But I don't think it's gonna affect our bilateral ties with US Japan or Vietnam. As each follows different types of diplomatic views. China won't stop supporting Pakistan . India won't stop supporting Vietnam Japan US Australia SCS countries. RUSSIA won't stop supporting Vietnam and SCS countries so lines are drawn already. Those times when Russia partially control Indian foreign policy are long gone. Today Russians have more control over Chinese policies than with Indians. China needs Russia for military tech and military support incase of was with US at SCS. But if India went to war with China we have several other options than Russia? Though Russian assistance and partially towards India will be sensed



dichoi said:


> Russia is again become a leader. Congratulation for Mr. Ivan.



Russia must get back to its core principles of becoming a global power. As of now China is inching towards taking that part replacing Russia?

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## TaiShang

Ind4Ever said:


> It's true all three are powerful in their region and of course willing to become more powerful globally. But I don't think it's gonna affect our bilateral ties with US Japan or Vietnam. As each follows different types of diplomatic views. China won't stop supporting Pakistan . India won't stop supporting Vietnam Japan US Australia SCS countries. RUSSIA won't stop supporting Vietnam and SCS countries so lines are drawn already. Those times when Russia partially control Indian foreign policy are long gone. Today Russians have more control over Chinese policies than with Indians. China needs Russia for military tech and military support incase of was with US at SCS. But if India went to war with China we have several other options than Russia? Though Russian assistance and partially towards India will be sensed



I think what is significant is to meet across the basic ideational lines supported by growing economic interaction. By basic ideational lines, I mean the principles of non-interference which, in fact, China constructed along with India as early as 1950s. I guess these ideas are well and functioning today, mostly, in the policies of these major powers.

Geopolitical lines are not that firmly drawn, I believe -- at least not as clearly as you state. We, for once, do not perceive Russia to be supporting any SCS actors at the cost of China's major interests. In the same manner, China's traditional friendship with Ukraine does not impinge upon Russia's strategic goals.

Small steps here and there won't alter the big picture -- that there emerges slowly an alternative order in Eurasia which does not necessarily take the US as the primordial enemy, but, which also does not subscribe to its vision of the world.

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## Chinese-Dragon

mpk1988 said:


> Also, I would say that Chinese netizens shouldn't be so distrustful of the U.S. A healthy relationship without conflicts between the U.S, Russia and China would by itself make global peace much more feasible. People should top believing all the internet conspiracy crap about the U.S.



It's not really a conspiracy though.

The USA is used to being the sole superpower, the gobal hegemon. They don't want to lose their position, nobody wants to lose their position, that's just human nature.

They see China in particular as an indicator that their unipolar world is soon coming to an end, in favor of a new multipolar world system.

In fact it's not just China, the transmission of modern technology means that the entire world is becoming more developed, which means that America's "relative power" compared to the rest is on a steady decline.

Everything is relative as they say. The rise of other powers in the world means that America's relative power is declining. That's something they will have to get used to, since the rest of the world isn't going to stop developing just because America wants to keep the world unipolar. It's inevitable, but the guy at the top never wants to give up his crown.

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## SBUS-CXK

AbRaj said:


> No its direct to China as "there is still some time left , settle the disputes and make peace. Don't force us to become your enemy which will be disastrous to both"
> 
> 
> And how can you trust a nation which invaded your state
> 
> 
> Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??
> 
> 
> Oh so Chinese are stabilizing us??


If India is to give up colonialism, do not threaten Nepal, Sri Lanka annexation of Bangladesh. Give up the UK "McMahon line". To the territory of China. We will become very good friends.

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## mpk1988

Chinese-Dragon said:


> It's not really a conspiracy though.
> 
> The USA is used to being the sole superpower, the gobal hegemon. They don't want to lose their position, nobody wants to lose their position, that's just human nature.
> 
> They see China in particular as an indicator that their unipolar world is soon coming to an end, in favor of a new multipolar world system.
> 
> In fact it's not just China, the transmission of modern technology means that the entire world is becoming more developed, which means that America's "relative power" compared to the rest is on a steady decline.
> 
> Everything is relative as they say. The rise of other powers in the world means that America's relative power is declining. That's something they will have to get used to, since the rest of the world isn't going to stop developing just because America wants to keep the world unipolar. It's inevitable, but the guy at the top never wants to give up his crown.



Nobody wants to lose their position.. That's true...
However, the amount of conspiracy theories that place the U.S as the sole big bad guy are simply ludicrous. It's mostly tin-foil hat stuff. I'm not saying that the U.S doesn't want to be the remain the most powerful country in the world. That' only natural like you said.
But, going by the very same logic, China is also moving towards the same path? Don't you agree? As you become bigger and more powerful, you demand more and want to topple the U.S.

I'm just saying that escalating the situation further isn't going to sort out things and that both sides need to be understanding, make concessions etc. That being said, I do see a more peaceful world in the future where China plays a big role.

India, as such, is a relatively small fish (no matter what internet fanboys say) and will largely remain confined to south Asia. We might be more active in peacekeeping operations and global economic and security activities but I do not ever see us initiating something large enough to put the big powers at loggerheads. Just a stabilising role.

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## SBUS-CXK

SrNair said:


> Russians and Chinese knows the real policy of India .You are absolutely right .Diplomatic tussle between India and US is the best example of that .We wont trust them .How can we whole heartedly support a nation that sent a CBG to threaten us ?
> US will always like the degradation of Asian powers ,so that they can take advantage from it . But India or China cant afford of the degradation of their neighbours .
> 
> 
> 
> We also knows that .But we cant provoke them unnecessarily .Perhaps Russia or China can do that because they are in much better but we are not.But still we will follow that independent policy.


Freemasonry plot is obvious. Do not allow any non Anglo-Saxon countries threatens him. China and India are small contradiction. But USA is trying to expand his. Weak to China and India. Because the USA was concerned about the rise of the two countries.


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## AbRaj

Two said:


> If India is to give up colonialism, do not threaten Nepal, Sri Lanka annexation of Bangladesh. Give up the UK "McMahon line". To the territory of China. We will become very good friends.


Dude just learn the damn English and get lost (the reason you are here)


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## SBUS-CXK

AbRaj said:


> Dude just learn the damn English and get lost (the reason you are here)


You give up to explain "McMahon line"?


----------



## Abingdonboy

wanglaokan said:


> Of course it will excercise more influence in the future. India is better with Russia and China than USA. Uncle Sam is no happy with it to the extreme.


F*ck the US, they are only interested in ruling the world unchallenged.

+ Russia seems like an odd inclusion, they are on a downward spiral and will drag any "grouping" like "G3" down- just like BRICS has become toothless with the BRS elements sinking at an alarming rate.



wanglaokan said:


> China shall respect India's rights in Indian Ocean, and contra versa. I would rather believe India than USA. I hope India could keep certain distance with USA, which render India to excercise more influence in the multi pillar world.
> 
> 
> Indians don't trust Uncle Sam in their deep side of heart, neither do China and Russia. If China and India can tick out the border problem, it will improve the bilateral relationship. The trick Uncle Sam played is to stir up the relationship between Asians and take advantage of it. India now is adopting a balance foreign policy between China and USA. Modi is smart. Now Russia perform as bridge between China and India, it's a good sign.
> 
> The current visit paid to China by Mr Parrikar is a. Strong signal sent out by Modi government that: India is no ones puppet. It sure win China's respect, and China will also redefine the relationship with India.


India and China need to settle their petty issues, together they can do incredible things together and the West will do everything in their power to prevent this. 

Divide and rule, divide and rule- that is the West's playbook, I hope the leaders of these two Asian giants do not make it easy for them.



Horus said:


> India sees itself as a "superior" state to China and Russia, they have already picked their side when they signed the Logistical Support Agreement with the United States. They are now officially engaged.


India has signed nothing of the sort, such intellectual dishonesty. What has been signed is an MoU on a watered down LSA(it is not even called that anymore as the Indian side has changed it so much). Nothing is agreed, nothing is settled. 

One thing is for sure, Pakistanis will hate this G3 idea and will tell all sorts of lies to disrupt it.

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## AbRaj

Two said:


> You give up to explain "McMahon line"?


I got headache trying to understand you


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## 911

AbRaj said:


> But First we need to know our real enemies
> And Unipolar, bipolar, multipolar are pure nonsense
> A multipolar world is more unstable and there are more chances of conflict of interests and wars


Bullshit. Don't know why you like America to control the whole world (media, internet, etc). Inferiority complex?


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## AbRaj

911 said:


> Bullshit. Don't know why you like America to control the whole world (media, internet, etc). Inferiority complex?


Dont try to fool yourself
Look at what Chin is doing in SCS and to your country
yourChina love is not going to change anything


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## Ind4Ever

TaiShang said:


> I think what is significant is to meet across the basic ideational lines supported by growing economic interaction. By basic ideational lines, I mean the principles of non-interference which, in fact, China constructed along with India as early as 1950s. I guess these ideas are well and functioning today, mostly, in the policies of these major powers.
> 
> Geopolitical lines are not that firmly drawn, I believe -- at least not as clearly as you state. We, for once, do not perceive Russia to be supporting any SCS actors at the cost of China's major interests. In the same manner, China's traditional friendship with Ukraine does not impinge upon Russia's strategic goals.
> 
> Small steps here and there won't alter the big picture -- that there emerges slowly an alternative order in Eurasia which does not necessarily take the US as the primordial enemy, but, which also does not subscribe to its vision of the world.



RIC can't take clear position on Syria, Global warming, Arms race, Un reforms etc. Many views between India and Russia converges but very less when it's India and China or in most cases Russia and China. This I belive future strategy where India Russia China dominates today's superior powers globally.Those days are still a fairy tale. As one war anywhere around the world could make sure defence oriented western powers to thrive for the next 3 decades. China and India has understood this power of local defence capabilities. Where India is too late to the party. 

Let's see how our relationship will turn out to be. As China know India is its biggest competitor than threat and India knows China is its foremost greater threat than competitor. Both mindset are deviated in opposite directions. May be just may be Pakistan at the phase of its current economic growth will be weak to be a strategic partner or a pawn against India. At this stage it's obvious that sense will prevail for peace between both. China will do the same what US did with Pakistan in late 90s and 2000 and beyond. Double agent. Who tries to make both the parties happy. Well those time when India fully dependent on Russia and others but not anymore?


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## TaiShang

*RIC: China and Russia are Unified over Security Issues, India is Seeking China's Support*
2016-04-21, CRI

*




*​*by Olga Sorokina*

Shortly before the trilateral gathering involving diplomats from China, India and Russia on Monday, Lavrov pointed that the ministers and delegates were planning to discuss a wide range of issues, including UN reforms and counter-terrorism strategies. The meeting marked the 14th summit within the so-called RIC format since 2003.

"We will discuss how to interact in the UN and how to promote different initiatives. For sure, we cannot avoid the subject of the UN reforms, including the reform of the UN Security Council," said Lavrov.

Lavrov added that successful cooperation between the countries makes the world safer.

According to Russian Foreign minister, China and Russia has worked out a unified position on security issues. "We have consistently advocated these kind of /mutual/ decisions... we don't want to force any projects which don't receive a wide support and carry a risk to split the UN," emphasized Segey Lavrov.

*However, the serving Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj raised the issue of China blocking India's bid at the UN to ban Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar.*

During the RIC meeting on Monday she urged Russia, India and China to carry out the commitment to fight terrorism together.

*"If we want to fulfill our commitment to fight terrorism, then they must rethink the position they have taken in the UNSC 1267 Committee", emphasized Swaraj. (The United Nations Security Council resolution 1267, adopted in October 1999, designates individuals and entities associated with Al-Qaida, Osama bin Laden or the Taliban wherever located as terrorists.)*

"We need to give up the tendency to differentiate 'my terrorists' and 'your terrorists', the Indian diplomat said. At the RIC meeting I put forward these views quite frankly before my two counterparts from Russia and China," she added.

*Previously India has said it is disappointed that a "technical hold" has been put by China on Indian application to include Pathankot terror attack initiator Masood Azhar in the UN sanctions list. China responded by saying India should consult with Pakistan.*

"I think India needs to separate the issue of the listing of the terrorist from the issue of condemning Pakistan," Defence Expert Samir Saran commented the situation to The New India Express on Monday. Samir Saran is a Senior Fellow and Vice President at the Observer Research Foundation.

*India should have a “heart-to- heart” dialogue with China to win its support at the United Nations to ban Masood Azhar, former external affairs minister Salman Khurshid has said.*

“You cannot expect China to deliver unless we talk to them. This is not carrying a shopping list,” Khurshid previously told Press Trust of India (PTI) during

China-India Corporate Dialogue held April 11 in Changcha.

“If we have to make friends and we cannot be selfish in your demeanour and we have to be accommodative and willing,” he added. “I am sure China will respond and support. You need to have heart-to-heart conversation,” concluded Khurshid.

To recall, both China and Russia are among the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. India has managed to secure greater support from Beijing and Moscow for its bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council (UNSC).

Moving on a different subject, in reply to a question from Press Trust of India (PTI) on Chinese-Indian relations, Wang Yi responded that the difficult border issues would also ultimately be resolved.

*"At the moment, the boundary negotiation is in the process of building up small positive developments. It is like climbing a mountain. The going is tough and that is only because we are on the way up. This is all the more reason that we should do more to strengthen China-India cooperation, so that we can enable and facilitate the settlement of the boundary question."*

RIC will continue to carry out strategic coordination and cooperation to maintain international peace and security, continued Wang Yi. "We will start strategic cooperation on the development of Russia's Far Eastern region," working together in the fields of oil and gas and nuclear, and on high-speed rail.

The strategic partnership between Russia, India and China has a stabilising effect on the Eurasia area, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in Moscow on Monday, according to TASS.

The talks will continue as 26 members of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence-Building Measures in Asia (CICA) and 12 observers will meet in Beijing on April 27-28 to discuss the cooperation towards promoting peace, security and stability in Asia. China’s MFA expressed a desire to see Sergey Lavrov as a head of a Russian delegation in Beijing.

Indian National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's and his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi plan to address the question of the UN sanctions list in Beijing on April 21.

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## Viet

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/bu...eals-on-further-oil-and-gas-exploitation.html

_Vietnam and Russia signed an inter-governmental agreement on further geological survey and oil and gas exploitation in Russia within the framework of the Vietnam-Russia oil and gas joint venture Rusvietpetro at a ceremony in Hanoi on April 20._

_




At the signing ceremony._


The two sides also inked a protocol amending the inter-governmental agreement dated December 27, 2010 on continued cooperation in geological survey and oil and gas exploitation in Vietnam’s continental shelf by Vietsovpetro.

Addressing the event, Minister of Industry and Trade Tran Tuan Anh said the signing of the two documents reflects Vietnam and Russia’s policy of giving priority to developing bilateral cooperation on oil and gas energy.

Russian Deputy Minister of Energy Sentyurin Yuri Petrovich spoke highly of the Vietsovpetro and Rusvietpetro, considering them as a symbol of the traditional and strategic ties between Vietnam and Russia.

Both Rusvietpetro and Vietsovpetro are joint ventures between the Vietnam National Oil and Gas Group (PetroVietnam) and the Zarubezhneft oil company of Russia.

Established on June 19, 1981, Vietsovpetro has tapped 220 million tonnes of crude oil, raking in over 74 billion USD and contributing nearly 47 billion USD to the State budget.

As of December 31, 2015, Rusvietpetro, which was formed on December 15, 2009, pumped over 13 million tonnes of crude oil, earning more than 5 billion USD, said General Director of the Directorate of Energy Dang Hung Cuong.


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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> *RIC: China and Russia are Unified over Security Issues, India is Seeking China's Support*
> 2016-04-21, CRI
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *​*by Olga Sorokina*
> 
> Shortly before the trilateral gathering involving diplomats from China, India and Russia on Monday, Lavrov pointed that the ministers and delegates were planning to discuss a wide range of issues, including UN reforms and counter-terrorism strategies. The meeting marked the 14th summit within the so-called RIC format since 2003.
> 
> "We will discuss how to interact in the UN and how to promote different initiatives. For sure, we cannot avoid the subject of the UN reforms, including the reform of the UN Security Council," said Lavrov.
> 
> Lavrov added that successful cooperation between the countries makes the world safer.
> 
> According to Russian Foreign minister, China and Russia has worked out a unified position on security issues. "We have consistently advocated these kind of /mutual/ decisions... we don't want to force any projects which don't receive a wide support and carry a risk to split the UN," emphasized Segey Lavrov.
> 
> *However, the serving Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj raised the issue of China blocking India's bid at the UN to ban Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar.*
> 
> During the RIC meeting on Monday she urged Russia, India and China to carry out the commitment to fight terrorism together.
> 
> *"If we want to fulfill our commitment to fight terrorism, then they must rethink the position they have taken in the UNSC 1267 Committee", emphasized Swaraj. (The United Nations Security Council resolution 1267, adopted in October 1999, designates individuals and entities associated with Al-Qaida, Osama bin Laden or the Taliban wherever located as terrorists.)*
> 
> "We need to give up the tendency to differentiate 'my terrorists' and 'your terrorists', the Indian diplomat said. At the RIC meeting I put forward these views quite frankly before my two counterparts from Russia and China," she added.
> 
> *Previously India has said it is disappointed that a "technical hold" has been put by China on Indian application to include Pathankot terror attack initiator Masood Azhar in the UN sanctions list. China responded by saying India should consult with Pakistan.*
> 
> "I think India needs to separate the issue of the listing of the terrorist from the issue of condemning Pakistan," Defence Expert Samir Saran commented the situation to The New India Express on Monday. Samir Saran is a Senior Fellow and Vice President at the Observer Research Foundation.
> 
> *India should have a “heart-to- heart” dialogue with China to win its support at the United Nations to ban Masood Azhar, former external affairs minister Salman Khurshid has said.*
> 
> “You cannot expect China to deliver unless we talk to them. This is not carrying a shopping list,” Khurshid previously told Press Trust of India (PTI) during
> 
> China-India Corporate Dialogue held April 11 in Changcha.
> 
> “If we have to make friends and we cannot be selfish in your demeanour and we have to be accommodative and willing,” he added. “I am sure China will respond and support. You need to have heart-to-heart conversation,” concluded Khurshid.
> 
> To recall, both China and Russia are among the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. India has managed to secure greater support from Beijing and Moscow for its bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council (UNSC).
> 
> Moving on a different subject, in reply to a question from Press Trust of India (PTI) on Chinese-Indian relations, Wang Yi responded that the difficult border issues would also ultimately be resolved.
> 
> *"At the moment, the boundary negotiation is in the process of building up small positive developments. It is like climbing a mountain. The going is tough and that is only because we are on the way up. This is all the more reason that we should do more to strengthen China-India cooperation, so that we can enable and facilitate the settlement of the boundary question."*
> 
> RIC will continue to carry out strategic coordination and cooperation to maintain international peace and security, continued Wang Yi. "We will start strategic cooperation on the development of Russia's Far Eastern region," working together in the fields of oil and gas and nuclear, and on high-speed rail.
> 
> The strategic partnership between Russia, India and China has a stabilising effect on the Eurasia area, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in Moscow on Monday, according to TASS.
> 
> The talks will continue as 26 members of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence-Building Measures in Asia (CICA) and 12 observers will meet in Beijing on April 27-28 to discuss the cooperation towards promoting peace, security and stability in Asia. China’s MFA expressed a desire to see Sergey Lavrov as a head of a Russian delegation in Beijing.
> 
> Indian National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's and his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi plan to address the question of the UN sanctions list in Beijing on April 21.



There is no peace until LAC is revert back and south Tibet is part of China again. No love until those things happen

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> There is no peace until LAC is revert back and south Tibet is part of China again. No love until those things happen



That's for sure since sovereignty claims cannot be negotiated.

It seems, China is simply exploring ways to improve relations within the meaningful limits of the existing disagreements.

I definitely does not mean reverting back on historical titles.

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## TaiShang

*Huge Room for China-Russia Cooperation in Space*
2016-04-22

China and Russia have good mechanism for cooperation in space and aerospace, and the room for cooperation is "huge", according to the head of China's space administration.

China and Russia have an outline for cooperation in this sector and cooperative projects have been conducted smoothly, Xu Dazhe, director of China National Space Administration, said at a press conference on Friday in response to a question on this topic.

*Xu said the two countries are recently cooperating on issues such as astronautic dynamics and spaceflight electronic components.*

China and Russia are working together to explore the universe and hopefully the two countries will improve aerospace technology and make better use of resources, Xu said.

Also, Xu said China's efforts in developing aerospace sector have always been open and transparent.

Citing plots in Hollywood blockbuster "The Martian", Xu said it may indicate that scientists in the United States are willing to cooperate with Chinese counterparts on relevant fields.

The official said that despite some "well-known" reasons that hold back such cooperation, a dialogue mechanism has been established between China and the United States and communications will be carried on via this channel.

*The official stressed that China follows the civilian-military integration strategy in the aerospace sector, and that it is natural for China to use space resources for national defense and world peace purposes.*

The press conference was held ahead of the China's first Space Day on April 24 to mark the launch of the country's first satellite 46 years ago.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Would be great to see Joint Russian - Chinese space mission to Mars


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## C130

meh government run Space Programs are so 20th century. It's the era of private companies like SpaceX 


though It would be interesting to see what comes of this  joint rockets? joint space station? joint exploration? joint satellites? etc etc

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## TaiShang

*For the Long Haul: Moscow-Beijing Ties Move to a 'Higher Level'*
"Russian-Chinese relations are able to resist any international crises"

(Sputnik) 


Wed, Apr 20, 2016 




Originally appeared at *Sputnik
*
In his article published by the US magazine National Interest, Lyle J. Goldstein, Associate Professor in the China Maritime Studies Institute at the Newport-based Naval War College, pointed to more efforts by Russia and China to move bilateral military collaboration to a "higher level."

According to him, "the rapidly changing balance of power in the western Pacific, not to mention thirty-plus years of stable relations," clearly counters critics' arguments about what they described as a yet-to-be-developed strategic coordination between Russia and China.

_"Since the early 1990s, Beijing's resources helped Russia's arms manufacturers to survive during the lean years, while Moscow has enabled China's remarkable leap into advanced weaponry,"_ Goldstein said.

In this regard, he referred to the Chinese J-11, J-15, and J-16 fighter jets, which he recalled "are all potent modifications of the successful Russian design" of the fourth generation multi-role fighter Su-27.

He also mentioned the YJ-12 and YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship missiles which he described as "Chinese spinoffs from Russia's recognized missile prowess."

Russian-Chinese naval drills during 2014 and 2015 signaled "a more ambitious program of military collaboration which now seems to be in the works," according to Goldstein.







He recalled that the drills which took place in the Sea of Japan in August 2015 was the largest ever Chinese-Russian joint naval exercise, which notably saw "the inclusion of numerous Chinese jets that flew into Russia from China, both J-10s and J-7s, and even a PLA Air Force KJ-200 early-warning/ battle-management aircraft."

_"Deploying this uniquely valuable platform to this exercise does indeed convey the notion that China and Russia are now seeking to move the military partnership to a higher level,"_ Goldstein pointed out.

Shortly after the end of the drills, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu, for his part, said that military cooperation between Russia and China forms the basis of a strategic union between the two nations and this partnership is having a stabilizing effect on the international situation.

Last month, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said that Russian-Chinese relations are able to resist any international crises, and that temporary factors cannot prevent the two countries from enhancing their cooperation. He touted the relations between Moscow and Beijing as "mature and stable."

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## qwerrty

they should jointly make big nuclear rocket engine for manned mars and beyond. everything else, china is pretty self-sufficient

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## Bussard Ramjet

qwerrty said:


> they should jointly make big nuclear rocket engine for manned mars and beyond. everything else, china is pretty self-sufficient



Just so that you know, you can theoretically not use nuclear power for propulsion in space. Nuclear power produces a lot of energy, but relatively little momentum, and that too is in high entropy. You can sure make air breathing nuclear engines, where energy heat up air, and uses it as a propellant, but in space and high atmosphere, you can't use nuclear energy for propulsion. (Although, it is true that most of the energy for space trips is required in entering and exiting the atmosphere)


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## qwerrty

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Just so that you know, you can theoretically not use nuclear power for propulsion in space. Nuclear power produces a lot of energy, but relatively little momentum, and that too is in high entropy. You can sure make air breathing nuclear engines, where energy heat up air, and uses it as a propellant, but in space and high atmosphere, you can't use nuclear energy for propulsion. (Although, it is true that most of the energy for space trips is required in entering and exiting the atmosphere)



the idea is to use it to power electric engine like the impulse drive in star trek enterprise when they don't want to travel light speed. lol. it's not impossible. vasimr engine in development at ad astra rocket company is very similar to that concept

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## Bussard Ramjet

qwerrty said:


> the idea is to use it to power electric engine like the impulse drive in star trek enterprise when they don't want to travel light speed. lol. it's not impossible. vasimr engine in development at ad astra rocket company is very similar to that concept




Again, the diagrams you showed, still use some propulsion material. Here they are using plasma. It will be more efficient than normal fuels, because every metal ion can be used equally for the propulsion, but there has to be something. You can't use simply energy for propulsion, for the only non mass things that you can eject will have disproportionately small momentum. You will require ejection of mass.


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## qwerrty

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Again, the diagrams you showed, still use some propulsion material. Here they are using plasma. It will be more efficient than normal fuels, because every metal ion can be used equally for the propulsion, but there has to be something. You can't use simply energy for propulsion, for the only non mass things that you can eject will have disproportionately small momentum. You will require ejection of mass.


of course it won't be efficient on its own alone. the idea is to use it to help accelerate plasma and make your ship goes much much faster than the current ion thruster or similar that we have today that rely on crappy solar power

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## Beidou2020

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Would be great to see Joint Russian - Chinese space mission to Mars



No.

Tried that in 2011 and Russian rocket failed. 

I want things like manned, moon and mars missions to be done independently by China to improve the technological capabilities of the nation.

Getting someone else to do it is useless, brings no prestige whatsoever.

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> No.
> 
> Tried that in 2011 and Russian rocket failed.
> 
> I want things like manned, moon and mars missions to be done independently by China to improve the technological capabilities of the nation.
> 
> Getting someone else to do it is useless, brings no prestige whatsoever.



I agree that key technologies and ventures must be domestically developed although, cooperation with a strategic partner as big as Russia is also significant.

It is significant not only due to the synergy the combined effort would create, but also due to the symbolic and geopolitical significance.

***

*China Aiming for Reusable Manned Spacecraft*
2016-04-24

China is studying how to retrieve and reuse manned spacecraft in its future missions, the chief engineer of the nation's manned space program said on Sunday.

"It's our next goal to reuse manned spacecraft. We want to make our space exploration cost-effective," Zhou Jianping said, as China marks Space Day, newly designated by the government to commemorate China's first satellite launch on April 24, 1970.

Reusable manned spacecraft are a Holy Grail of space exploration. The United States developed partially reusable manned spacecraft capable of reaching low Earth orbit. But they were all retired in 2011 due to high costs and risks, including an accident in 2003 that killed seven astronauts.

Zhou did not go into any more details on the project, but stressed his team's focus on saving costs, giving an example from the Tiangong space lab series.

Tiangong-1 was due to be followed by Tiangong-2 and Tiangong-3, but Chinese scientists managed to incorporate all tasks planned for the third generation of the lab into Tiangong-2, he said. There has been no need to develop Tiangong-3.

And China's space station, to be completed around 2022, will be a "green model, with highly advanced and budget-saving facilities in flight control, power supply and waste recycling," according to Zhou.

Earlier this month, U.S. rocket developer SpaceX achieved a world first by landing one Falcon rocket on a carrier at sea.

China was paying close attention to such innovation and was testing its own reusable rockets, promising a breakthrough before the end of 2020, according to earlier reports.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Russia and China will hold their first joint computerized missile defense drills.


MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia and China are set to hold their first ever joint computer-aided command-staff missile defense exercises in May 2016, the press service of the Russian Defense Ministry said Friday.

*"The main objective of the exercise is to develop cooperation between the missile defense groups being set up by Russia and China to their territories from accidental and provocative ballistic and cruise missile strikes,"* the press service said in a statement.

It was noted in the statement that the planned drills are not directed against any third party.

Russia and China have stepped up their defense cooperation in recent months. The countries have already held joint training exercises this year, while top defense officials met for talks on international and regional security, as well as bilateral military-technical cooperation.

According to Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov, Moscow and Beijing have a united stance on regional peace and international security.


Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160429/1038829146/drills-russia-china-computers.html#ixzz47DmOS1sL

--------------------
Wow, first time to hear such kind of military exercise. Hope military cooperation will make China and Russia more secure.

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## BoQ77

lol. What is the missile defense not use computer


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

BoQ77 said:


> lol. What is the missile defense not use computer



Only nation earn enough of trust each other to engage on this highly sensitive military drill, what you Viet know anything about joint computerized missile defense drills ?

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Only nation earn enough of trust each other to engage on this highly sensitive military drill, what you Viet know anything about joint computerized missile defense drills ?



They have no such technology to conduct such drill. So its difficult for them to comprehend.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> They have no such technology to conduct such drill. So its difficult for them to comprehend.



I just love Viet over-simplify things...

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## onebyone

Viet superpower in the univers

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## Beidou2020

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Only nation earn enough of trust each other to engage on this highly sensitive military drill, what you Viet know anything about joint computerized missile defense drills ?



As I've said before, Vietnamese wouldn't know the difference between a tank and a missile.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beidou2020 said:


> As I've said before, Vietnamese wouldn't know the difference between a tank and a missile.



lol

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## qwerrty

this is like nato level integration

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## TaiShang

A very welcome development. It is anticipated that China and Russia's drive to provide security and development in Eurasia will gradually nullify and limit the destructive effects of US-led NATO.

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## BoQ77

err .... Am I wrong. Is it a simulated drill ??


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TaiShang said:


> A very welcome development. It is anticipated that China and Russia's drive to provide security and development in Eurasia will gradually nullify and limit the destructive effects of US-led NATO.



Mark my word, US will be isolated in Eurasia with their assertive and aggressive stand toward China and Russia, Americans think they're smart to use China and Russia neighbors to encircle and contain both countries but it will end up to be victim of it own plot.

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## navtrek

BoQ77 said:


> err .... Am I wrong. Is it a simulated drill ??



No buddy you are not wrong. I guess its a translated article or may be the author wanted to stress on the network integration part.

But as usual our Chinese friends think they are superior IQ people so they are always right.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Only nation earn enough of trust each other to engage on this highly sensitive military drill, what you Viet know anything about joint computerized missile defense drills ?



I think what he ment was 
"What is the missile defense not use computer"

"Which missile defense does not use computer ?"

try to point out that fact. But the author of the article has used the words to stress on the integration of computer networks part.


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## xunzi

The possibility of a creating a unify missile defense system across EuraAsia is in the book. It would be good to see that happen to discourage US's aggression toward Russia and in our Pacific Theater.

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## TaiShang

xunzi said:


> The possibility of a creating a unify missile defense system across EuraAsia is in the book. It would be good to see that happen to discourage US's aggression toward Russia and in our Pacific Theater.





Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Mark my word, US will be isolated in Eurasia with their assertive and aggressive stand toward China and Russia, Americans think they're smart to use China and Russia neighbors to encircle and contain both countries but it will end up to be victim of it own plot.



Exactly. It makes perfect sense to integrate defense systems for coordinated response. It appears that China and Russia are progressing from soft strategic alliance (economy), to hard alliance (security).

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## onebyone

*April 29, 2016*
*China lending Russia $6.2 billion for Russia's Moscow-Kazan high speed rail project*

China has agreed to provide a 400 billion-ruble ($ 6.2 billion) loan for Russia's Moscow-Kazan High-Speed Rail Project, the Russian Railways company said Friday.

In late March, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich attended the Boao Forum for Asia (BFA), where he invited Chinese business to take part in the implementation of high-speed rail projects in Russia, including the Moscow-Kazan railway and a high- speed railway between Samara and Tolyatti.

The project is initial stage of a high speed rail line connecting Moscow and Beijing and later one of lines connecting China to Europe.














*China is discussions with India on several High Speed rail projects

India has tied up with Japan for its first high-speed train to run on a 505-km track between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. China is keen to work on other proposed routes. It is carrying out feasibility studies for high-speed lines on the 2,200-km Chennai-New Delhi route and the 1,200-km long New Delhi-Mumbai corridor.

The proposed Chennai-New Delhi corridor could be the second-largest in the world, after the 2,298 km-long Beijing-Guangzhou line, which was launched three years ago.

Comparing the pricing of tickets of various modes of transport, the Chinese railway chief said the fare for a regular passenger train is 10 cents per kilometer, while second class on HSR costs 48 cents per kilometer and first class costs 80 cents. An air ticket, on average, came to about 1 RMB (100 china cents) per km. This was after airlines had been forced to lower their rates since they were losing out to High Speed Rail.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/china-lending-russia-62-billion-for.html*

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Exactly. It makes perfect sense to integrate defense systems for coordinated response. It appears that China and Russia are progressing from soft strategic alliance (economy), to hard alliance (security).



China and Russia found the common interest to enhance defense cooperation, as I mentioned before if China or Russia want to play solo against US with its alliance, Nato from the west, Japan, Korea from the east, both will suffer for not to have enough of resources (defense budget) to answer to the threat. It's a natural logic for the two to stick together or both will be suffered in consequence.

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## Daniel808

Nice Development for China and Russian Military Cooperation.
One step Closer for a Military Alliance

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## TaiShang

*Chinese Lend 'Isolated Russia' $12bn for Gas Plant in the Arctic*
West throws a spanner in the works, the Chinese step in, the project proceeds

Vladimir Soldatkin 


Olesya Astakhova 








Originally appeared at *Reuters
*
Russia's Yamal liquefied natural gas (LNG) project has signed loan agreements with Chinese banks worth over $12 billion, it said on Friday, circumventing Western sanctions in a major boost for the project led by gas producer Novatek.

Talks with European and Chinese lenders had dragged on for months, complicated by Western sanctions against Novatek and its major shareholder Gennady Timchenko, a friend of Russian President Vladimir Putin, over Moscow's role in the Ukraine crisis.

With the deal, Yamal LNG's external financing needs, seen at $18-$19 billion, are fully covered.

The project has already secured state funds worth 150 billion roubles ($2.3 billion) from a rainy day fund and 3.6 billion euros from state-controlled lender Sberbank and Gazprombank.

Yamal LNG's future had been in jeopardy due to the lack of access to Western capital markets. Plunging oil prices, the benchmark for gas prices, had also clouded its prospects.

Several other global LNG projects, notably the proposed $30 billion Browse floating LNG project off Australia, have been shelved due to global oversupply.

"The project is progressing in accordance with the approved schedule. With the first train of the LNG plant 65 percent complete we are currently at the most intensive phase of construction and assembly works," Yevgeny Kot, director general of Yamal LNG, said in a statement.

*'PUTIN'S WIN'*

The loan deals, the third-largest in Russian corporate history, are likely to be presented in Russia as a victory over what are seen as Western attempts to curb Russia's energy expansion to punish it for its role in the Ukraine crisis.

They are also in line with Russia's "Eastwards Pivot", a policy of forging closer political and economic ties with Asia's biggest powerhouses, such as China, to compensate for poorer relations with the West.

Earlier this decade, Kremlin energy champion Rosneft , raised over $30 billion in Western loans to acquire Anglo-Russian oil firm TNK-BP, while oil pipeline monopoly Transneft jointly with Rosneft got $25 billion from Chinese banks to build a pipeline to Asia.

The new funds will help the $27 billion Yamal LNG project to start producing liquefied gas next year. Three LNG production lines are envisaged, each with an annual capacity of 5.5 million tonnes.

About 95 percent of future production has been pre-sold.

Yamal LNG, the world's most northerly project of its kind, is located beyond the Arctic circle. The gas, frozen at a temperature of around minus 160 Celsius (minus 320 Fahrenheit)will be shipped to global markets including China.

Russia wants to double its share in the global LNG market by 2020 from 4.5 percent currently. Kremlin-controlled Gazprom and Royal Dutch Shell are key shareholders in Russia's only LNG plant, located on the Pacific island of Sakhalin. It produces over 10 million tonnes of LNG per year.

The 15-year loan deals of 9.3 billion euros ($10.6 billion) and 9.8 billion yuan ($1.5 billion) were signed with Export-Import Bank of China and the China Development Bank.

The euro-denominated part of the loan is being made at 3.3 percent above the European benchmark 6-month EURIBOR rate at the construction stage and 3.55 percent above thereafter, Yamal LNG said. The renminbi loan is being made at 3.3 percent above China's 6-month SHIBOR benchmark, and then 3.55 percent above.

Novatek holds 50.1 percent of Yamal LNG. France's Total and China National Petroleum Corp control 20 percent each while China's Silk Road Fund owns 9.9 percent.

($1 = 0.8790 euros)

($1 = 6.4840 Chinese yuan renminbi)

($1 = 64.3000 roubles)

***

Very good news, which is, nicely coincidentally, came at a time I was engaged in a research project with a classmate of mine from Russia on a join project on China-Russia energy cooperation.

China and Russia are rally upgrading bilateral relations into a deeper cooperation, using in this way, energy as an effective policy tool.

Smart great powers.

@Chinese-Dragon , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon , @vostok, _et al_.

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## cirr

So China lent Russia close to 200 billion USD in the past month or so.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

cirr said:


> So China lent Russia close to 200 billion USD in the past month or so.



How US expect to isolate Russia when China is on Russia's side with such amount of money.

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> How US expect to isolate Russia when China is on Russia's side with such amount of money.



That is why Russia can afford to attack the ISIS in syria although a limited one. It is to check the western US power and let them know they can't dictate who they want to topple.

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## TaiShang

*While EU Wants Slice of Iranian Pie, Russia and China Have First Helpings*

16:46 10.05.2016Get short URL

*European businesses are eager to jump into Iran after the lifting of nuclear-related sanctions on the country, however, according to some media sources, challenging the position of Russia and China will be “no easy trick.”*

“The cake is quite big, but everyone wants a slice,” the Australian-based website The Conversation writes with regards to the Iranian market, which opens up to western countries after the lifting of nuclear-related sanctions on Tehran.

Among those who are ready to invest are German industrial giant Siemens, the oil and gas company Shell, and French auto makers Peugeot and Renault, as well as Airbus Group.

In addition, the outlet detailed the visits to Iran last month of Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi, accompanied by business leaders from the energy, transportation and defense sectors and of EU High Representative Federica Mogherini, accompanied by business representatives and seven EU commissioners, including those for transport, energy and industry.

All of the above signals an extremely high-level of interest in restoring economic ties with Iran.

However there are certain barriers which put Europe at disadvantage with regards to China and Russia, the two countries which have benefitted from the imposed sanctions and are now “well-placed” in Iran’s market.

“The Iran rush is tugged back by the persistence of sanctions not related to the nuclear deal and which can very easily apply to European companies,” the website notes.

Among those are sanctions on missile technologies and conventional weapons, terror list sanctions and targeted sanctions on anyone connected with support of terror, ballistic missiles, human rights abuses and censorship and destabilizing regional activities, including in Syria and Yemen.


According to White House guidance, the website says that anyone found to have had dealings with those on the Specially Designated Nationals List (SDN) would “put themselves at risk of being cut off from the US financial system. This includes foreign financial institutions, who would risk losing their correspondent account with US banks.”

In a separate analysis on the issue, Bloomberg noted that for the same very reason Europe’s biggest banks prefer to stay out of Iran, “unwilling to go anywhere near Iran-related business for fear that they will run afoul of remaining US sanctions on the country.”

Among those who are “not prepared to do business in Iran yet” are France’s Societe Generale SA, Germany’s Deutsche Bank AG, Zurich-based Credit Suisse Group AG, ING Groep NV in the Netherlands and the UK’s Standard Chartered Plc.

Thus the “funding issue has become a financial diplomacy hot-spot,” it notes.

This again has opened the way for Chinese and Persian Gulf lenders to “grab a slice of the business of funding companies’ investments in Iran.”

Russia and China are already very-well positioned in the Iranian market.

China has been providing goods that Iran could no longer receive from the West.

“Losing no time, the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, paid a visit to Iran in January, signing a Sino-Iranian “comprehensive strategic partnership” and announcing 17 agreements in the energy, trade, and industrial sectors,” The Conversation says.

Iran is important for China’s “One Belt, One Road” initiative that would join markets from China to Central Asia and the Middle East, it adds.

As for Russia’s interests in the country, they concentrate on the restart of arms sales and the nuclear industry and Moscow “stands in a stronger position” there.

So, both media sources conclude, “it’s a tough call for European businesses.”



Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160510/1039375678/europe-iran-russia-china.html#ixzz48GPap1hX

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## Dalit

Until Trump the warmonger wins and derails world peace.


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## Gufi

Dalit said:


> Until Trump the warmonger wins and derails world peace.


International sanctions will not work now, they will be vetoed by both Russia and China, both which will have financial interests there
Iran should stay away from anything which can be sanctioned and the people should raise their voice in the best way possible, while purchasing things...


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## Dalit

Gufi said:


> International sanctions will not work now, they will be vetoed by both Russia and China, both which will have financial interests there
> Iran should stay away from anything which can be sanctioned and the people should raise their voice in the best way possible, while purchasing things...



Well, the Israelis still haven't gotten over their anti-Iran rhetoric and Trump has already promised that he would tear the nuclear deal and throw it in a bin. Now presuming that Trump wins, which is a likely outcome, we can expect things to deteriorate.


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## Gufi

Dalit said:


> Well, the Israelis still haven't gotten over their anti-Iran rhetoric and Trump has already promised that he would tear the nuclear deal and throw it in a bin. Now presuming that Trump wins, which is a likely outcome, we can expect things to deteriorate.


Study the life of Trump and then please tell me if your judgement stays the same... He talks big and likes to strut about, but he will not go around waging wars because he can never convince congress war is needed... America can do nothing serious in his presidency as no world leader will take him for anything but a joke.


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## cloud4000

Dalit said:


> Well, the Israelis still haven't gotten over their anti-Iran rhetoric and Trump has already promised that he would tear the nuclear deal and throw it in a bin. Now presuming that Trump wins, which is a likely outcome, we can expect things to deteriorate.



What can Trump do about it? He's free to reimpose US sanction if he wishes, but no other country will follow. Trump, Israel and Gulf states can suck on lemons if they are so sour about over Iran.


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## Dalit

Gufi said:


> Study the life of Trump and then please tell me if your judgement stays the same... He talks big and likes to strut about, but he will not go around waging wars because he can never convince congress war is needed... America can do nothing serious in his presidency as no world leader will take him for anything but a joke.



I have studied his life. I also know he can be bold and unpredictable. Don't underestimate the madness of Trump. This guy truly harbors hate for Muslims. He is riding his success on the hatred against Muslims and this should also tell you how ugly his supporters are. When he says that he is going to make sure that America is respected again, he means to do exactly that. He is not going achieve that by handing out an olive branch I can assure you. He is going to be confrontational and ugly. He is going to wage trade and actual wars.


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## Gufi

Dalit said:


> I have studied his life. I also know he can be bold and unpredictable. Don'r underestimate the madness of Trump. This guy truly harbors hate for Muslims. When he says that he is going to make sure that America is respected again by force, he means to do exactly that.


Trump is the type of person who can scrap projects because they take too long, build walls which are totally not feasible and bankrupt America just because of his ego. Let us wait and watch, but Trump will talk big and have a big stick, but that stick will not be in his hands... Time will tell, Trump is not worth considering as a threat, rather something that would solidify other emerging powers at the expense of America.


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## Dalit

Gufi said:


> Trump is the type of person who can scrap projects because they take too long, build walls which are totally not feasible and bankrupt America just because of his ego. Let us wait and watch, but Trump will talk big and have a big stick, but that stick will not be in his hands... Time will tell, Trump is not worth considering as a threat, rather something that would solidify other emerging powers at the expense of America.



Of course, it remains to be seen, but I'm just highlighting the prospects. He'll have to deliver on his promises. You can't just lie your way to a presidency.


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## Gufi

Dalit said:


> Of course, it remains to be seen, but I'm just highlighting the prospects.


Most of what he says goes against his own constitution, and most of the facts he states are wrong. You can not ban people like that, you can not ask other countries to pay for things, and you certainly can not declare war without the backing of congress. Trump will be a President who will just act tough... Putin without the power maybe is the best way to describe it. 
I advice you to watch Last week tonight, and the coverage they gave about him also.


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## Dalit

Gufi said:


> Most of what he says goes against his own constitution, and most of the facts he states are wrong. You can not ban people like that, you can not ask other countries to pay for things, and you certainly can not declare war without the backing of congress. Trump will be a President who will just act tough... Putin without the power maybe is the best way to describe it.
> I advice you to watch Last week tonight, and the coverage they gave about him also.



Of course, he just rambles. Everyone knows that except his supporters. Although, he is a seriously dangerous loose cannon. Once in power, Israel could exploit this guy very easily. The world doesn't take him seriously, but neither does he and his supporters.


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## Gufi

Dalit said:


> Of course, he just rambles. Everyone knows that except his supporters. Although, he is a seriously dangerous loose cannon. Israel could exploit this guy very easily.


Iran maybe or Pakistan could be in trouble for the next few years but not if power to wage war remains with congress. Just hope Trump goes around firing people


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## barbarosa

EU will never help Iran otherwise if Iran fight against Muslim country then it is possible.


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## TaiShang

*Russia and China Continue Loading up on Gold Despite Rising Price*

As if they're taking the rising price as validation of their policies

Originally appeared at *Business Insider*

This has been a great year for gold.

The precious metal is up 19%, and recently crossed $1,300 per ounce for the first time in 15 months before pulling back into the $1,265 area. One of the most encouraging signs for the yellow metal is that demand has come from all sorts of places.

Buyers have come back into the market in India, the world's largest buyer of gold, after a strike by the country's jewelers associations brought business to standstill. In the US, demand for bullion is the strongest it's been in 30 years.








But it's not just everyday people who are scrambling to get their hands on gold: Central banks are loading up as well. Data from the World Gold Council showed that central banks scooped up a net 45 tonnes of gold during the first quarter. According to Capital Economics' commodities economist, Simona Gambarini, central-bank demand in the first quarter climbed 28% versus a year ago.

Of the buyers, Russia (+46 tonnes), China (+35 tonnes), and Kazakhstan (+7 tonnes) were the most active in the market, Capital Economics says. As for why the central banks are buying, here's the research firm:

The primary driver of central banks' gold buying continues to be diversification away from the US dollar with some also looking for a hedge against currency volatility more generally. Indeed, historically gold is negatively correlated with the US dollar, the main asset held by central banks across the world, making it an effective hedge against future dollar weakness. What's more, gold tends to have little or no correlation to other traditional or alternative reserve assets, like government bonds.

Going forward, Capital Economics thinks that "the upbeat Q1 figure is in line with our view that the official sector will continue to be a steady source of demand for gold, helping to underpin our positive view on prices."

Capital Economics isn't the only one with a positive view on gold. In a mid-April note to clients, Murray Gunn, HSBC's head of technical analysis, noted that gold is "in an uptrend with a bullish Elliott Wave structure."

At the time, Gunn suggested: "With momentum turning up we open a long position at a spot reference of $1,260. A stop-loss is set at $1,200 with an initial target of $1,500."







***

Thought within the context of China's newly launched gold-pricing mechanism, gold-backed Yuan might not be that far away from being realized.

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## meis

Flash news:
George Soros (a Jewish/Zionist elite) says China is manipulating the currency.

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## rashid.sarwar

some one told me, the russian economy is shrinking...


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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> *Russia and China Continue Loading up on Gold Despite Rising Price*
> 
> As if they're taking the rising price as validation of their policies
> 
> Originally appeared at *Business Insider*
> 
> This has been a great year for gold.
> 
> The precious metal is up 19%, and recently crossed $1,300 per ounce for the first time in 15 months before pulling back into the $1,265 area. One of the most encouraging signs for the yellow metal is that demand has come from all sorts of places.
> 
> Buyers have come back into the market in India, the world's largest buyer of gold, after a strike by the country's jewelers associations brought business to standstill. In the US, demand for bullion is the strongest it's been in 30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not just everyday people who are scrambling to get their hands on gold: Central banks are loading up as well. Data from the World Gold Council showed that central banks scooped up a net 45 tonnes of gold during the first quarter. According to Capital Economics' commodities economist, Simona Gambarini, central-bank demand in the first quarter climbed 28% versus a year ago.
> 
> Of the buyers, Russia (+46 tonnes), China (+35 tonnes), and Kazakhstan (+7 tonnes) were the most active in the market, Capital Economics says. As for why the central banks are buying, here's the research firm:
> 
> The primary driver of central banks' gold buying continues to be diversification away from the US dollar with some also looking for a hedge against currency volatility more generally. Indeed, historically gold is negatively correlated with the US dollar, the main asset held by central banks across the world, making it an effective hedge against future dollar weakness. What's more, gold tends to have little or no correlation to other traditional or alternative reserve assets, like government bonds.
> 
> Going forward, Capital Economics thinks that "the upbeat Q1 figure is in line with our view that the official sector will continue to be a steady source of demand for gold, helping to underpin our positive view on prices."
> 
> Capital Economics isn't the only one with a positive view on gold. In a mid-April note to clients, Murray Gunn, HSBC's head of technical analysis, noted that gold is "in an uptrend with a bullish Elliott Wave structure."
> 
> At the time, Gunn suggested: "With momentum turning up we open a long position at a spot reference of $1,260. A stop-loss is set at $1,200 with an initial target of $1,500."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> 
> Thought within the context of China's newly launched gold-pricing mechanism, gold-backed Yuan might not be that far away from being realized.



I thought China launched a gold backed yuan on April 21?

What is surprising are more Americans buying gold as they know the USD eventually will not be suitable in high inflation economies

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> I thought China launched a gold backed yuan on April 21?
> 
> What is surprising are more Americans buying gold as they know the USD eventually will not be suitable in high inflation economies



Yes, China launched Yuan denominated gold benchmark on April 19th.

You individual US people, or the US government? I thought the US government's gold holdings are not that large.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> Yes, China launched Yuan denominated gold benchmark on April 19th.
> 
> You individual US people, or the US government? I thought the US government's gold holdings are not that large.


Individuals. I'm sure Federal Reserves also buying because they know the USD is not reliable in the forseeable future.



TaiShang said:


> Yes, China launched Yuan denominated gold benchmark on April 19th.
> 
> You individual US people, or the US government? I thought the US government's gold holdings are not that large.



Yup and also the new gold back yuan cannot be converted to USD

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## Jlaw

crap, Canada has no gold reserves. Stupid govt sold all. Our currency is pure fiat.


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## TaiShang

*One Belt, One Road: China Construction Bank to invest S$30bn in Singapore*

New funds will be made available to support Chinese and Singaporean companies as part of China’s One Belt, One Road infrastructure project. China Construction Bank (CCB) and International Enterprise (IE) Singapore have signed a Memorandum of Understanding committing to the project.

The idea of the scheme is to better connect China with commerce from Africa, Asia, and Europe, much like the ancient silk roads used to do.

Under the MOU, which is the first signed by CCB with a Southeast Asian country, S$30 billion of financial services will be provided to support local and Chinese companies in investing in One Belt, One Road projects through Singapore. The bank has 176 major projects in One Belt, One Road countries, with a cumulative investment size of more than S$405 billion covering sectors such as mining, transportation, and power generation.

As Lee Ark Boon, CEO of IE Singapore, told Channel News Asia, the partnership between CCB and IE Singapore is “strategic, strengthening the critical financing element and bringing more projects to fruition”.

Speaking at the One Belt, One Road Infrastructure and Capital Market Financial Services Forum, Chun Sung, Minister within the Prime Minister's Office, claimed that outward investments from China are surpassing foreign direct investments into China, and thus that with the levels of infrastructure required in Southeast Asia, there is “tremendous potential” to channel part of the outward direct investment into the region.

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## onebyone

a new Eurasian land bridge of freight trains connecting the port of Lianyungang in Jiangsu province to Rotterdam
a Mongolia-Russia corridor
a Central Asia-West Asia corridor
an Indochina peninsula corridor
a Pakistan corridor
a Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar corridor






“One Belt, One Road” is also invoked for China’s infrastructural investments in other parts of Southeast Asia, North Africa, as well as various countries in Central and Western Europe. While “One Belt, One Road” investments follow predetermined routes, other associated investments are being tagged on as a code word for China’s outbound global strategy.

The rationale is global connectivity, which defines the 21st century. It is part and parcel of what the World Economic Forum calls the Fourth Industrial Revolution. China is a central hub for the world’s production, supply, logistics and value chain. “One Belt, One Road” will deepen China’s infrastructural, economic, institutional and cultural connectivity with key parts of the globe. Not only will this enhance China’s global rapport and influence, it will also help counter exposure to geopolitical risks inherent in America’s “Asia rebalancing”, and China’s own energy security challenge and other imponderables in the South China Sea.

“One Belt, One Road” doesn’t translate into offloading surplus capacity in commodities such as steel and coal; it involves exporting excess capital to invest in productive infrastructure across the globe.

Projected investments are estimated to benefit 4.4 billion people in 65 countries. The total size, according to some estimates, could be more than 12 times America’s Marshall Plan to aid post-second-world-war Western Europe, in comparable money-of-the-day terms.

Besides infrastructural investments in ports, high-speed rail, power generation and other utilities, there are ancillary private-sector investment opportunities in real estate, telecoms, e-commerce, financial, tourism, education, creative industries and green technologies. “One Belt, One Road” is not a one-way street of China’s outbound investments. There is also huge export potential for Western products, technologies and services to enter China.

Hong Kong trade and Development has more information

1) The New Eurasia Land Bridge Economic Corridor
The New Eurasia Land Bridge, also known as the Second Eurasia Land Bridge, is an international railway line running from Lianyungang in China’s Jiangsu province through Alashankou in Xinjiang to Rotterdam in Holland. The China section of the line comprises the Lanzhou-Lianyungang Railway and the Lanzhou-Xinjiang Railway and stretches through eastern, central and western China. After exiting Chinese territory, the new land bridge passes through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and Poland, reaching a number of coastal ports in Europe. Capitalising on the New Eurasia Land Bridge, China has opened an international freight rail route linking Chongqing to Duisburg (Germany); a direct freight train running between Wuhan and Mělník and Pardubice (Czech Republic); a freight rail route from Chengdu to Lodz (Poland); and a freight rail route from Zhengzhou to Hamburg (Germany). All these new rail routes offer rail-to-rail freight transport, as well as the convenience of “one declaration, one inspection, one cargo release” for any cargo transported. 

(2) The China-Mongolia-Russia Economic Corridor
Linked by land, China, Mongolia and Russia have long established various economic ties and co-operation by way of frontier trade and cross-border co-operation. In September 2014, when the three country’s heads of state met for the first time at the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation (SCO) Dushanbe Summit, agreement was reached on forging tripartite co-operation on the basis of China-Russia, China-Mongolia and Russia-Mongolia bilateral ties. At the same meeting, the principles, directions and key areas of trilateral co-operation were defined. The three heads of state also agreed to bring together the building of China’s Silk Road Economic Belt, the renovation of Russia’s Eurasia Land Bridge and the proposed development of Mongolia’s Steppe Road. This commitment will strengthen rail and highway connectivity and construction, advance customs clearance and transport facilitation, promote cross-national co-operation in transportation, and help establish the China-Russia-Mongolia Economic Corridor. In July 2015, the three leaders held a second meeting in the Russian city of Ufa. This second summit saw the official adoption of the Mid-term Roadmap for Development of Trilateral Co-operation between China, Russia and Mongolia.

(3) China-Central Asia-West Asia Economic Corridor
The China-Central Asia-West Asia Economic Corridor runs from Xinjiang in China and exits the country via Alashankou to join the railway networks of Central Asia and West Asia before reaching the Mediterranean coast and the Arabian Peninsula. The corridor mainly covers five countries in Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan) as well as Iran and Turkey in West Asia.
At the third China-Central Asia Co-operation Forum, held in Shandong in June 2015, a commitment to “jointly building the Silk Road Economic Belt” was incorporated into a joint declaration signed by China and the five Central Asian countries. Prior to that, China had signed bilateral agreements on the building of the Silk Road Economic Belt with Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. China had also concluded a co-operation document with Uzbekistan on the building of the Silk Road Economic Belt. This was aimed at further deepening and expanding mutually beneficial co-operation in such areas as trade, investment, finance, transport and communication. The national development strategies of the five Central Asian countries – including Kazakhstan’s “Road to Brightness”, Tajikistan’s “Energy, Transport and Food” (a three-pronged strategy aimed at revitalising the country), and Turkmenistan’s “Strong and Happy Era” – all share common ground with the establishment of the Silk Road Economic Belt.

(4) China-Indochina Peninsula Economic Corridor
During the Fifth Leaders Meeting on Greater Mekong Sub-regional Economic Co-operation, held in Bangkok in December 2014, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang put forward three suggestions with regard to deepening the relations between China and the five countries in the Indochina Peninsula. The suggestions included: (1) to jointly planning and building an extensive transportation network, as well as number of industrial co-operation projects; (2) creating a new mode of co-operation for fundraising; and (3) promoting sustainable and co-ordinated socio-economic development. Currently, the countries along the Greater Mekong River are engaged in building nine cross-national highways, connecting east and west and linking north to south. A number of these construction projects have already been completed. Guangxi, for example, has already finished work on an expressway leading to the Friendship Gate and the port of Dongxing at the China-Vietnam border. The province has also opened an international rail line, running from Nanning to Hanoi, as well as introducing air routes to several major Southeast Asian cities.

(5) China-Pakistan Economic Corridor
The concept of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor was first raised by Premier Li Keqiang during his visit to Pakistan in May 2013. At the time, the objective was to build an economic corridor running from Kashgar, Xinjiang, in the north, to Pakistan’s Gwadar Port in the south. At present, the two governments have mapped out a provisional long-term plan for building highways, railways, oil and natural gas pipelines and optic fibre networks stretching from Kashgar to Gwadar Port. According to a joint declaration issued by China and Pakistan in Islamabad in April 2015, the two countries will proactively advance key co-operation projects, including Phase II of the upgrade and renovation of the Karakoram Highway (the Thakot-Havelian section), an expressway at the east bay of Gwadar Port, a new international airport, an expressway from Karachi to Lahore (the Multan-Sukkur section), the Lahore rail transport orange line, the Haier-Ruba economic zone, and the China-Pakistan cross-national optic fibre network.

(6) Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor
In a series of meetings during Premier Li Keqiang’s visit to India in May 2013, China and India jointly proposed the building of the Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor. In December 2013, the Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor Joint Working Group convened its first meeting in Kunming. Official representatives from the four countries conducted in-depth discussions with regard to the development prospects, priority areas of co-operation and co-operation mechanisms for the economic corridor. They also reached extensive consensus on co-operation in such areas as transportation infrastructure, investment and commercial circulation, and people-to-people connectivity. The four parties signed meeting minutes and agreed the Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor joint study programme, establishing a mechanism for promoting co-operation among the four governments.

The government of China released the vision and plan in 2015

SOURCES - South China Morning Post, HKTDC, China Government

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/05/one-belt-one-road-will-be-12-times.html

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## TaiShang

*China to Launch 30 Beidou Satellites in Next 5 Years
(to cover countries on the Belt & Road Initiative, OBOR)*
2016-05-19 20:22:52 Xinhua Web Editor: Guan Chao







A computer-simulated image shows China’s Beidou navigation satellite system. [Photo: baidu.com]

China plans to launch 30 Beidou navigation satellites during the 13th five-year plan period (2016-2020), capping its three-step strategy to build a global navigation system by 2020.

*The first batch of 18 satellites will be launched before 2018 to cover countries along the routes in "the Belt and Road" initiative, said Ran Chengqi, director of the China Satellite Navigation Office, during the China Satellite Navigation Conference, which opened on Wednesday.*

After having achieved the first two steps -- building a regional functional navigation system by 2012, the accuracy and stability of the Beidou system must be improved, said Ran, adding international cooperation will also help the nascent navigation system.

Aside from announcing satellite navigation cooperation with the United States, China and Russia have agreed to make the Beidou and Glonass satellite navigation systems compatible with each other, said Ran.

He added that Beidou also successfully synchronized its frequency with the Galileo navigation system operated by the European Union.

Ran said China will detail the development ideas and proposals of the Beidou system in a white paper, which is expected to be released soon.

The white paper also elaborates on how Beidou will work with the International Civil Aviation Organization and International Maritime Organization to bring benefits to the world, according to Ran.

"To let the whole world know about Beidou, understand Beidou and use Beidou, we still have much technical and coordination work to do," he said.

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## TaiShang

*The 'Petroyuan' Is the Big Bet of Russia and China*

The two BRICS giants are leading the world in 'de-dollarization'

Ariel Noyola Rodriguez
(Voltairenet) 


Fri, May 20, 2016 | 



Originally appeared at *Voltairenet*. 

In place of humiliating Russia, the “economic war” that Washington and Brussels had promoted was counterproductive,* since it only contributed to fortify the energy team between Moscow and Beijing.* We recall that in May of 2014 the Russian company Gazprom agreed to supply gas to China up to 38 billion cubic meters annually during three decades (starting in 2018) through the signing of a contract for 400 billion US dollars with the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNCP) [1].

At the present time both powers coordinate the work of an ambitious plan of strategic projects that include the *construction of gas and oil pipelines* as well as the *combined operation of refineries and large petrochemical complexes.* Without proposing to do so, the coming together of Moscow and Beijing has produced deep changes in the world oil market in favor of the Orient, dramatically undermining the influence of Western petroleum companies.

Even Saudi Arabia, that until recently was the principal supplier of petroleum to the Asian giant, has been undermined by Kremlin diplomacy.* While from 2011 the petroleum exports of Saudi Arabia to China were growing at a rhythm of 120 billion barrels per day, those of Russia grew at a velocity of 550 billion barrels per day, that is to say, almost five times more rapidly.* In fact, in 2015 the Russian companies managed to overcome the sales of petroleum from the Saudis four times: Riyadh had to conform with being the second provider of crude to Beijing in May, September, November and December [2].

It is worth noting that the countries that make up the European core have also seen their share of the market diminished in the face of the Asian region: *Germany, for example, was supplanted by China at the end of 2015 as the greater buyer of Russian petroleum [*3*]*. In this way, the great investors operating in the world oil market can hardly believe how, *in a few months, the principal purchaser (China) became the favorite client of the third major producer (Russia).* In accord with the Vice-President of Transneft (the Russian company charged with the implementation of national oil pipelines), Serge Andronov, China is disposed to import a total volume of 27 million tones of Russian petroleum during 2016 [4].

*The Russian-Chinese energy alliance is proposed to go longer.* *Moscow and Beijing have made their interchanges of petroleum a channel of transition towards a multipolar monetary system, that is to say, a system that is no longer based on the dollar alone, but takes into account various currencies and above all, that reflects the correlation of forces in the current world order.* The economic sanctions imposed by Washington and Brussels drove the Russians to eliminate the dollar and the euro from their commercial and financial transactions, since otherwise, they would be too exposed to suffer sabotage in the moment of realizing buying and selling operations with their principal trading partners.

For this reason, *from mid-2015, the hydrocarbons that China buys from Russia are paid in yuans, not in dollars, information that has been confirmed by high executives of Gazprom Neft,* the petroleum branch of Gazprom [5]. *This has lead to the use of the “people’s currency” (‘renminbi’) in the world oil market and at the same time allows Russia to neutralize the economic offensive launched by the United States and the European Union.* The underpinnings of a new financial order supported by the petroyuan is emerging: the Chinese money is preparing to become the axis of commercial exchanges of the Asian-Pacific region with the principal petroleum powers.





© David Manrique
Today Russia realizes its interchanges of petroleum with China in yuans, *in the future the Organization of the Petroleum Exporters Countries (OPEC) will do the same if China demands it.* *Or will the cult of Saudi Arabia for the dollar make them lose one of their principal clients?* [6] Other geoeonomic powers have already followed the path of Russia and China, since they have understood that *in order to establish a more balanced monetary system, the “de-dollarization” of the world economy is a priority.*

No less important is that after the fall of oil prices, more than 60% (from mid-2014), the Chinese banks have become a decisive financial support for the joint energy infrastructure works. For example, to establish as soon as possible the Russian-Chinese gas pipeline “Force of Siberia”, Gazprom requested from the Bank of China a five-year loan for an amount equivalent to 2 billion euros this past month of March [7]. This is the greatest bilateral credit that Gazprom has contracted with a financial institution to date. Another example is the loan that China gave Russia some weeks ago for a total of 12 billion US dollars for the Yamal LNG project (for liquefied natural gas) in the Arctic region [8]. *Obviously, the foreign policy of Russia in energy have not lost any strength due to isolation, on the contrary, it is now enjoying its best moments, thanks to China.*

In conclusion, the hostility of the leaders of the United States and the European Union against the government of Vladimir Putin has precipitated the strengthening of the Russian-Chinese team that at the same time has only increased the weight of the Orient in the world market of hydrocarbons. *The great bet of Moscow and Beijing is the petroyuan, the strategic instrument of payment that brings with it a challenge to the dominion of the dollar in the fixing of prices for black gold.*

@vostok , @Chinese-Dragon , @AndrewJin , @Jlaw , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon , @cirr , @ahojunk , @WSHH , @dy1022 , @rott _et al._

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## ahojunk

One truth - whatever you do, if you exclude the biggest or second biggest player in the world, your plan will not be successful.

China is now the biggest consumer of petroleum. I believe Russia is the second biggest producer and the biggest outside of OPEC. The Saudi are now not able to dictate the price of petroleum any longer. China as the biggest consumer is in a better position to dictate the price as it is now buying from multiple big suppliers.

In the past, when Saudi reduce production, the price of petroleum will go up. However, if they do it now, they will lose market share, so it's not in their interest to do so. The market dynamics has changed.

The Americans and the Europeans in their haste to sanction Russia forgot to nicely ask China whether it was a good idea.
Oh, it is little late now. 

==========
Oh! that reminds me of TPP.

Q: What is the chance of success of TPP as it is excluding the biggest player in the world?
A: None, zip, zero. A big fat chance!

Also, I believe neither Trump nor Hillary are too keen on TPP too.

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## Beast

China buys Russia oil and paid in Yuan. Russia uses Yuan to buy Chinese goods since China is the world factory producing almost all commercial available. Its a win plus jackpot for China. 

I notice Aliexpress Russian website is filled with large number of Russian customers.

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## jhungary

Petroyuan would probably destabilise Yuan first, before any damage done to US dollar.

Yuan need currency reform to be used to anchor anything, the more it uses Yuan, the more it will make it unstable as more currency flow, now imagine what would Russian feel if Russian sold China oil and gas and got paid by RMB, and Chinese government done a devalue like they did in q3 2015?

Country trade with RMB today usually used USD as a guarantor (As in holding the same amount in USD to exchange with RMB), which mean the more yuan is used internationally, the more USD trade, and in fact, petro yuan did not destabilise dollar, in fact, they were strengthening dollar as world reserve currency. It jump from 63% on 2014, to 64.7 in 2015.

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## Beast

jhungary said:


> Petroyuan would probably destabilise Yuan first, before any damage done to US dollar.
> 
> Yuan need currency reform to be used to anchor anything, the more it uses Yuan, the more it will make it unstable as more currency flow, now imagine what would Russian feel if Russian sold China oil and gas and got paid by RMB, and Chinese government done a devalue like they did in q3 2015?
> 
> Country trade with RMB today usually used USD as a guarantor (As in holding the same amount in USD to exchange with RMB), which mean the more yuan is used internationally, the more USD trade, and in fact, petro yuan did not destabilise dollar, in fact, they were strengthening dollar as world reserve currency. It jump from 63% on 2014, to 64.7 in 2015.


I thought you wish the dollar collapse and you can forgot your housing debt?

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## jhungary

Beast said:


> I thought you wish the dollar collapse and you can forgot your housing debt?



Sometime you don't get what you wish for, plus, we still have 6 days to go, so it's hard to say


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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> China is now the biggest consumer of petroleum. I believe Russia is the second biggest producer and the biggest outside of OPEC. The Saudi are now not able to dictate the price of petroleum any longer. China as the biggest consumer is in a better position to dictate the price as it is now buying from multiple big suppliers.
> 
> In the past, when Saudi reduce production, the price of petroleum will go up. However, if they do it now, they will lose market share, so it's not in their interest to do so. The market dynamics has changed.



Very well explained. It is a promising sign that imports from Saudi Arabia (Middle East in general) have been leveled for a while whereas Russia climbed as China's largest crude source. When the gas deal becomes online in 2018, a similar dynamic will take place with respect to natural gas. Rendering KSA insignificant is going to put another nail on the USD coffin.



ahojunk said:


> The Americans and the Europeans in their haste to sanction Russia forgot to nicely ask China whether it was a good idea.
> Oh, it is little late now.



Sanctions on Russia have proven to be a losing game. Sadly, EU has to suffer because their sovereignty has been arrested by the US. Japan, smartly, was able to foresee what is upcoming and defied US sanctions. Sanctions not only pushed China-Russia closer, it also convinced Russia to be more on China's side in SCS territorial dispute.

US was unlikely to coerce China into anything it does not wish to do in SCS, and now with Russia's explicit support at the highest level, it has become even less likely.

Thankfully, what Middle East did from 2000-2008, East Europe has been doing since 2013-14--digging holes under the US feet as it clumsily structures irrational foreign policy.

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## dy1022

China wins again !!!

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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Sanctions on Russia have proven to be a losing game.



Sanctioning Russia was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Even more stupid than invading the entire Middle East and North Africa region in one decade.

Russia won't forget these sacntions from America, not in a thousand years.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Sanctioning Russia was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Even more stupid than invading the entire Middle East and North Africa region in one decade.
> 
> Russia won't forget these sacntions from America, not in a thousand years.



I was very concerned when Medvedev pressed the reset button along with Hillary. That was one point I felt really stressed in terms of larger geopolitics of Greater China.

Luckily, history found its right course; pitting the US against Russia in such a way that created a greater psychological chasm between US regime and our Russian partners than the entire Cold War.

During Cold War, if not the Soviet elite, a considerable size of Russian population had a favorable view of the Western regimes, if not explicitly, under countless Western regime propaganda. Hence, USSR was weaker ideologically and in terms of information warfare.

Russia is a different beast today in terms of global information and agenda making. That's one great man; I guess everything starts and ends with leadership. It is make or break for a country.

We need to be thankful to dialectical forces that brought two great statesmen, Mr. Xi and Mr. Putin, together at the same historical moment whereas, on the other side, there was first Bush and his religious fanatics and then Obama and his (although I believed Obama's initial sincerity) Asia-Pacific fascists.

It is just great. As you say, really, the US has made itself entirely irrelevant in the Eurasia by making a perfect enemy from Russia.

@vostok

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## jhungary

ahojunk said:


> One truth - whatever you do, if you exclude the biggest or second biggest player in the world, your plan will not be successful.
> 
> China is now the biggest consumer of petroleum. I believe Russia is the second biggest producer and the biggest outside of OPEC. The Saudi are now not able to dictate the price of petroleum any longer. China as the biggest consumer is in a better position to dictate the price as it is now buying from multiple big suppliers.
> 
> In the past, when Saudi reduce production, the price of petroleum will go up. However, if they do it now, they will lose market share, so it's not in their interest to do so. The market dynamics has changed.
> 
> The Americans and the Europeans in their haste to sanction Russia forgot to nicely ask China whether it was a good idea.
> Oh, it is little late now.
> 
> ==========
> Oh! that reminds me of TPP.
> 
> Q: What is the chance of success of TPP as it is excluding the biggest player in the world?
> A: None, zip, zero. A big fat chance!
> 
> Also, I believe neither Trump nor Hillary are too keen on TPP too.



Umm, no........

US Oil consumption is standing at 19 million barrel per day in 2015. China is touching 13 millions barrel a day, The reason why US import less than China is because US produced a lot more than China

And no, if any trade pact would not work without the biggest market in the world, then all Chinese Free trade pact would not work as they did not include US in it, which is as of now, the Biggest Economy in the world.


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## rott

ahojunk said:


> China is now the biggest consumer of petroleum.


Buddy, can you provide a link?

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## TaiShang

rott said:


> Buddy, can you provide a link?



I think it is still the second largest, with a daily consumption of about 9 million barrels. The US consumes about 14 million barrels. That's right from my memory, figures might be a little higher or lower.

China, however, is the largest importer. It is also the largest consumer of energy.

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## S10

Even with cheap oil and plentiful suppliers, China should start reducing its requirement for oil and seek more alternative energy. For one, the pollution and carbon produced by burning of fossil fuel is killing the environment.

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## rott

TaiShang said:


> I think it is still the second largest, with a daily consumption of about 9 million barrels. The US consumes about 14 million barrels. That's right from my memory, figures might be a little higher or lower.
> 
> China, however, is the largest importer. It is also the largest consumer of energy.


That's what I thought so too. 
I suppose USA still runs on diesel locomotive.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> I think it is still the second largest, with a daily consumption of about 9 million barrels. The US consumes about 14 million barrels. That's right from my memory, figures might be a little higher or lower.
> 
> China, however, is the largest importer. It is also the largest consumer of energy.


.
Thanks bro, for the correction.

China is the largest importer of petroleum and with China's help, Russia can be the biggest exporter.

Yes, China is the largest consumer of energy.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot exclude the biggest players and still hope to succeed.

Most people understand my point but a very small minority does not.

Guess what? It doesn't bother me one iota, I just ignore them.

TBH, I think my post is slightly off-topic. Please forgive.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> .
> Thanks bro, for the correction.
> 
> *China is the largest importer of petroleum and with China's help, Russia can be the biggest exporter.*
> 
> Yes, China is the largest consumer of energy.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that you cannot exclude the biggest players and still hope to succeed.
> 
> Most people understand my point but a very small minority does not.
> 
> Guess what? It doesn't bother me one iota, I just just them.
> 
> TBH, I think my post is slightly off-topic. Please forgive.




Exactly, bro. There is a tendency between China and Russia to utilize energy in order to deepen strategic relations. Energy, in a sense, is a launching pad, as you have pointed out.

And this just came out; it seems that, in the first three months of this year, Russia became China's largest supplier while Saudi Arabia (and even Iran)'s imports declined.

China is doing the right thing: By buying from its land neighbor, it is providing financial cover for Russia and also reinforcing its own energy security by relying less on SCS bound Middle East imports.

The bonus of this entire scheme is Yuan's extensive use and avoidance of Petrodollar. As the news goes, China and Russia now do oil business entirely in their own currencies.

One step at a time.

***

*Race to Petrodollar End Speeds Up - China Imports Record Amount of Russian Oil in April*

Oil that is paid for in China's own currency

4 hours ago | 



Originally appeared at *Zero Hedge*

We have reported for years that Russia and China have been doing everything they can to displace the use (and influence) of the US dollar.

The US of course, either oblivious or too arrogant to care, has continued to bring Russia and China together by annoying both equally with its incessant meddling. Recall that recently both China andRussia have had to warn the US about its insistence on flying reconnaissance planes too close to their borders.

Of course, as the US has been playing geopolitical games, China and Russia have been working on strengthening their relationship with one another. At the end of 2015, China had become Russia's biggest oil customer, and as of April, Russian oil shipments to China hit a record high. Russia has also surpassed Saudi Arabia as the biggest crude exporter to China.









RT has more:

Beijing has ramped up imports of Russian oil by 52.4 percent last month compared to a year earlier. China's General Administration of Customs calculated a record 4.81 million tons.

In March, China bought 4.65 million tons of oil from Russia.

Russia, Saudi Arabia and Angola were China’s three major oil suppliers last month.

April imports from Saudi Arabia fell by 22 percent year-on-year to 4.12 million tons. In March, China imported 3.98 million tons of oil from the country.

China increased year-on-year oil imports from Angola last month by 39 percent to 3.98 million tons. Imports from Iran in April fell by 5.1 percent yoy to 2.76 million tons.

An International Energy Agency report showed that at the end of 2015 Russia overtook Saudi Arabia as the biggest crude exporter to China.

Russian exports to China have doubled over the past five years, and supply is expected to continue to be strong. Transneft's Vice-President Sergey Andropov said that China is expected to import 27 million tons of Russian crude this year via the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) pipeline. The volume underscores the significance of contracts signed in 2009 by Rosneft, Transneft, and China National Petroleum Corporation to have Russia supply oil to China through the ESPO.

Russian exports to China have more than doubled over the past five years, up by 550,000 barrels a day. Moscow and Beijing have significantly increased energy cooperation, with a wide range of multibillion dollar projects.

Russian oil transport monopoly Transneft’s Vice-President Sergey Andropov said in March that China is ready to import 27 million tons of Russian crude this year via the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) pipeline. Supplies to China through the ESPO pipeline started in 2011 after Rosneft, Transneft and China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) signed contracts two years earlier. Currently five million tons of crude are supplied through the pipeline annually, and this is expected to rise to 15 million tons a year.

Experts say Chinese imports of Russian oil are likely to stay high over the coming years due to long-term crude supply contracts and rising demand from the world's second biggest oil consumer.

* * *

There is an underlying theme here that cannot be ignored.

*Whatever the US has been focusing on, whether it's commissioning *$4.4 billion warships*, wargaming in the name of "*regional stability*", or *arguing over LGBT rights and confederate flags*, it is neither productive, nor helping its global economic standing. One day when the USD is no longer the reserve currency, and all of the games the Federal Reserve plays to allow fiscal policy to go unchecked are no longer an option, we suspect that it will wish it had done things quite differently.*

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## LowPost

*Eurasia: China and Russia is Where It’s Happening*

*In 1865 at the end of the US Civil War New York journalist Horace Greeley popularized the expression, “”Go West, young man, and grow up with the country.” Today, some 150 years later, as the colossal economy of the United States of America sinks into obsolescence, outsourcing, income depression, and staggering real unemployment, with many countries of the European Union close to the same, the slogan should properly be changed. “Go East, young man,” and grow up with the booming economies of Eurasia, especially Russia and China. While NATO planes and warships increasingly saber rattle both Russian and Chinese territories, the two giants of Eurasia are forging relations closer than ever in their history. Energy alliances are at the heart of the process.*

*Energy Synergies*

Since May, 2014, China and Russia have agreed to staggeringly large energy deals that make China less vulnerable to any NATO or Mideast supply blackmail, and Russia to any Ukraine or EU energy blackmail.

In May, 2014 Russian President Vladimir Putin and China’s President Xi Jinping signed the so-called Russian East Route pipeline deal, a $400 billion agreement over 30 years that will begin sending 38 billion cubic meters of gas annually from Russia to China beginning 2018. It was followed in November 2014 by an agreement for the so-called West Route gas pipeline that will connect gas fields in western Siberia with northwest China through the Altai area of Xinjiang Autonomous Region. They also agreed on provisions for possible second and third sections to be added later that would bring capacity to an impressive 100 billion cubic meters a year. West Route is designated a priority and to be finished in six years.

When both East and West Route pipelines are operational, Russia will supply some 59% of the current Chinese annual natural gas consumption, replacing the EU as Russia’s largest gas export market. Today China consumes 169 billion cubic meters annually. At the same Beijing meeting, the presidents of state oil companies Rosneft and CNPC signed a deal whereby CNPC buys a 10% stake in Rosneft subsidiary Vankorneft which operates the huge Russian Vankor oil field. China will receive some $7 billion worth of Russian oil from Vankor in the deal.

Then on April 19 this year Russian First Deputy Energy Minister Alexei Teksler told RIA Novosti that certain Chinese state oil companies are discussing buying the planned 19.5% state share of Rosneft that is to be sold privately by end of 2016. The likely candidate would be China’s CNPC oil company.

*Yamal LNG Project Gets China Money *

Now on May 3, the Director General of the Yamal LNG Export Terminal project in northwest Siberia made an announcement that clearly did not please the Washington sanctions warriors. The Russian LNG project consortium signed a loan agreement with China Exim Bank and the China Development Bank who will extend a 15-year loan to the project of 9.3 billion euros, some 75% of the estimated total funds that Yamal needs to get into production.

Following Washington sanctions that blocked key Russian energy companies from raising capital in western markets, Yamal looked highly unlikely. As the company’s website notes, “Launched at end 2013, Yamal is not only one of the most complex liquefied natural gas projects ever undertaken; it is also one of the most competitive…because it benefits from the vast natural gas reserves situated across the Yamal peninsula. Complex because it is located above the Arctic Circle.” Its partners include Russia’s Novatek, China’s CNPC, French Total (20%) and, significantly, China’s Silk Road Fund.

OAO Novatek is Russia’s largest independent natural gas producer, concentrated in the Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region (YNAO) in Western Siberia, the most significant gas producing region in Russia, accounting for approximately 80% of Russia’s natural gas production and approximately 16% of global gas production. Now the Chinese are taking the major financing burden to make the mammoth Yamal project work.

Also significant in terms of the process of de-dollarization taking place in Russia, China, Iran and other Eurasian countries, the Chinese loans will be denominated in Euros and not in US dollars.

It appears clearly that Washington’s enraged neoconservatives around Victoria Nuland in the State Department and Defense Secretary Ash Carter have made the best contribution to bringing China and Russia together in an unprecedented manner. They managed this impressive feat by imposing financial and economic sanctions on Russia and threatening China’s sea lanes, fostering terrorism in Xinjiang and advancing the military “Asia Pivot” as well as the TPP that deliberately excludes China. The result is that both Russia and China are forging deep long-term economic ties across Eurasia that ultimately will become the focal point for world economic growth as the China New Silk Road—the One Belt, One Road project– links Russia, China, Iran and the vast regions across Eurasia with a new network of high-speed rail and port links, energy links, pipelines, electricity infrastructure. Russia has clearly decided to “Go East, young man.”

It would be an entirely new paradigm if the nations of Europe were to also go East to open vast new markets for their stagnating economies rather than open US Missile defense bases, hosting advanced nuclear weapons and station US troops on the borders of Russia.

_*F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics, exclusively for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”*_

http://journal-neo.org/2016/05/25/eurasia-china-and-russia-is-where-its-happening/

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## TaiShang

Arryn said:


> It appears clearly that Washington’s enraged neoconservatives around Victoria Nuland in the State Department and Defense Secretary Ash Carter have made the best contribution to bringing China and Russia together in an unprecedented manner.



This century might as well be a Eurasian century.

But, China should not miss one look on the maritime front all the time, as well. Hence, SCS is as important as Eurasia.

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## TaiShang

*Russia and China are eager to take their relationship of regional security to a new level with one of the main areas of cooperation aimed at dealing with issues relating to the situation in neighboring regions, according to a report by CCTV.*

A conference on bilateral Russian-Chinese relations, which is being held in Moscow currently, will highlight the need for some sort of transformation and revision of bilateral relations under the new situation, according to Zhang Xin, researcher of the School of Advanced International Studies at East China University.

“Let’s take a look at the past year or two. We know that Russia is under increasing pressure from Western sanctions and this seriously affects the country's economy.





© Sputnik/ Sergey Guneev
China Hopes to Develop Plan on Cooperation With Russia During Putin's Visit

China, on the other hand, is getting more and more involved in a complex situation in the region,” Xin said in an interview with CCTV.

These new factors are pushing both the sides to reconsider and possibly revise bilateral relations. Here, on one hand, it means ‘a new quality of bilateral relations.’

The analyst pointed out that the conference itself is a meeting of experts, so one should not consider statements made at these meetings by experts and specialists, as official.

Nonetheless, judging by what has been heard at the conference, the analyst has highlighted three main directions of cooperation in the sphere of regional security.

According to the analyst, *first of all it is important to understand if the Shanghai Cooperation Organization can be reorganized into a regional platform for cooperation in the field of security to include participants apart from the current ones.*

*“Secondly, we see a clear trend in Russia's active attempts to increase its presence in the Asia-Pacific region,* which is widely manifested, in particular, in security cooperation,” Xin said.





© Sputnik/ Kirill Kalinnikov
Lavrov: Russia-China Partnership Best Example of 21st Century Intergovernmental Relations

He further said that both the countries have discussed this during the recent Russia-ASEAN summit, which was held a week ago. This is another recent trend, the importance of which in the context of regional security in the Asia-Pacific region may further increase.

*Thirdly, it is interesting to see whether the two sides will start expressing mutual support for each other's basic positions on regional security more openly and loudly in the surrounding regions.*

In these areas, both sides seek to achieve a higher level of cooperation and support from each other. I believe that these three areas are probably the main points in the context of cooperation between Russia and China in the field of regional security.

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## TaiShang

China, Russia vow to boost military ties




Admiral Sun Jianguo (2nd R), deputy chief of the Joint Staff Department of China's Central Military Commission, meets with Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov (2nd L) in Singapore, June 3, 2016. (Xinhua/Then Chih Wey)



Admiral Sun Jianguo, deputy chief of the Joint Staff Department of China's Central Military Commission, met with Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov Friday and the two sides pledged to step up military cooperation.

Sun, who met Antonov on the sidelines of the Shangri-La Dialogue, said that the two countries have seen a sound development trend in military cooperation, as the overall relations between the two sides are running well.

*He said the two sides are both facing with a more complicated international security situation and closer mutual cooperation is in need.*

Antonov praised the effective cooperation between the two defense ministries and expressed the willingness to join hands with China in the fight against security threats including terrorism.

Antonov also vowed to deepen the mutual military cooperation under the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

*He said the Russian military is keen to launch more joint maritime drills and anti-terror exercises with the Chinese side.*

The 15th Shangri-La Dialogue, an Asia-Pacific defense and security summit, runs in Singapore from Friday to Sunday.

Sun, on the sidelines of the dialogue, met on Friday with defense ministers, military chiefs and high-ranking defense officials from countries including Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore and Brunei.

***
So, when is the first China-Russia naval drills on the SCS?

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## dy1022



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## Chinese-Dragon

Pakistan + Russia are our closest allies in the world.

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## xunzi

Motto always should be "expansion and always think expansion".

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## xunzi

I'm willing to support a full signing of a mutual defense treaty with Russia. Let get this done and we can be serious about protecting each other interest more closely.

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## Chinese-Dragon

xunzi said:


> I'm willing to support a full signing of a mutual defense treaty with Russia. Let get this done and we can be serious about protecting each other interest more closely.



There is no need to be honest. Nobody in the world is going to directly attack Russia or China. They will only be able to use indirect means.

It would be pretty nice as a symbolic thing though.

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## xunzi

Chinese-Dragon said:


> There is no need to be honest. Nobody in the world is going to directly attack Russia or China. They will only be able to use indirect means.
> 
> It would be pretty nice as a symbolic thing though.


Beside symbolic, it demonstrates both Sino-Russia relation is special and we are willing to support each other core interest. This point is important to demonstrate to NATO and will lesson their aggression toward Russia and the US towards us. So a mutual defense treaty will definitely push our relation to the next level and will make the SCO and our mutual friends security tighter and safer.

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## AndrewJin



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## cirr

AndrewJin said:


>



Yangtse River Automobile Co. Ltd. sold the Moroccan city of Malakashi 35 electric buses for a cool 40 million USD.

Nice little earner.

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## TaiShang

I wonder, with GE home electronics acquisition, how much Haier's global market will be. 15%?

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> There is no need to be honest. Nobody in the world is going to directly attack Russia or China. They will only be able to use indirect means.
> 
> It would be pretty nice as a symbolic thing though.



Partnership with Russia is the most significant one for China, in my opinion.

Russia is not only a strong ally to resist and counter-attack US moves, but also it is an anchor of stability in Central Asia, keeping the region from being radicalized through religious extremist indoctrination. Thanks to this, China's western borders are much more secure although there is the threat of Islamic extremism and terrorism coming from some border states.

For one, China should cherish secular neighbors. Syria is a living example of what might happen if your historical neighbor turns radical-sectarian and starts to support and export extremist ideologies.

China is not Syria, but radical religious extremism can easily prove to be a pain in the neck.

That's why I wholeheartedly support oppressive secularism (The French style); China should never give in to pressure on the basis of pseudo religious freedoms.

Together with Russia, China can promote secularism and historical materialism as the cultural norm of the region.

That's just one of the dimensions of China-Russia strategic partnership. But a very important one, in my opinion.

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## AndrewJin

cirr said:


> Yangtse River Automobile Co. Ltd. sold the Moroccan city of Malakashi 35 electric buses for a cool 40 million USD.
> 
> Nice little earner.


lol, though I hate Yangtse electric buses in Wuhan.
I know Wuhan has to buy some to support local manufacturing, but now they are abroad.


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## onebyone

Two Russian Sukhoi Su-24s fly over USS Donald Cook in the Baltic Sea on April 12.Photo: EPA
A Chinese jet fighter last week conducted an “unsafe” intercept of a US spy plane in international airspace over the East China Sea. It’s starting to become a trend — one the Obama administration needs to reverse.

It’s the second such incident in a month — on top of a series of Russian jets repeatedly buzzing US planes and a Navy ship in the Baltic. Beijing and Moscow both seem to think Team Obama can be bullied.

Worse, the Chinese moves directly violate a US-China agreement last September on rules of behavior on air encounters — one that was supposed to reduce tensions.

On top of the real risk of injury from a collision in the latest intercept, China also managed an insult: At the time, Secretary of State John Kerry and Treasury Secretary Jack Lew were in Beijing for an annual meeting.

In both cases, the aggressor is trying to claim territory it doesn’t own.

Beijing is conducting a long-term campaign to seize control of the South China Sea, a plan that also involves the creation of artificial islands that it then packs with military assets.

Moscow, meanwhile, is out to assert dominance in the Baltic — intimidating Norway and Sweden as well as Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

Team Obama’s non-response to the Russian provocations probably encouraged China to give it a whirl.
If the White House similarly ignores the latest provocations, expect the likes of Iran or North Korea to be next. And their pilots are a lot less expert — boosting the odds of a fatal collision.

Put it in baseball terms: When the other team starts throwing too many brushback pitches, your players have to respond. And it’s far better to do so early — before you wind up with a bench-clearing brawl.
http://nypost.com/2016/06/11/obama-needs-to-make-russia-china-stop-playing-chicken-with-us-planes/

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

"Baltic Sea" and ""East China Sea" have already showed the truth.
Hey,buddy,don't tell me something shitty like "indian ocean",because this is not word-games，it's about history and the results of WW2.

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## AndrewJin

Hopes all on Trump!
That African American and multiple Bushes & Clintons make this world more miserable.

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## ptldM3




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## HongWu002

Mommy make China and Russia stop hurting me...

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## Globenim

I'm not touching you!
I'm not touching you!
I'm not touching you!
I'm not touching you!
I'm not touching you!
Baww they tried to touch me!

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## Emperor_of_Mankind

The NY post is just a sensationalist tabloid.


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## qwerrty

what do they expect? try lurking around in someone's backyard and see what will happen lol

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## rott

HongWu002 said:


> Mommy make China and Russia stop hurting me...


It's more like, "mommy, China and Russia molested me".

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## TaiShang

*For the Sake of the World, Russia and China Need to up Their Information-Warfare Game*
"The great achievements of China and Russia have to be explained in detail. Such information should be spread to all corners of the planet."

Andre Vltchek
(New Eastern Outlook)




Narrative or be narrative

Originally appeared at *New Eastern Outlook*

These days you may get hugs from many common people in the Middle East or Latin America when you say that you are Russian, but such emotional outbursts are mainly intuitive. After being bombarded by extremely effective and negative Western propaganda for years and decades, people of the world still know very little,* if anything, about two enormous countries that have been proudly resisting the Western imperialism – Russia and China.*

I recently spent five weeks in Latin America, where the West openly supports the entire wide spectrum of counter-revolutionary movements, literally overthrowing one progressive government after another. I worked alongside the left-wing intellectuals there, helping to define the way forward, to rescue the Process.

But I was shocked by how little is known there about both Russia and China – for decades two natural allies of the patriotic Latin American Left.

“Are you for Putin or against?” And: “Is China really as capitalist now as we read?”

These were two most commonly asked questions.

Not in Cuba, of course. Cuba, almost free of most of propaganda media outlets of the Empire is actually one of the best-educated and informed societies on Earth. There, people know all about those long decades and centuries of the epic struggle of the Russian people against Western imperialism. There, it is very well known that China is essentially and once again increasingly a Communist (and successful) nation with clear central planning, which uses some controlled capitalist practices in order to build a prosperous society for its people.

But even in such educated countries like Argentina and Chile, even in those centers of progress and revolution like Ecuador and Venezuela*, the two world giants are often misunderstood. *The majority of people in Latin America may feel sympathy for both Russia and China, but there is no deep knowledge of the realities there.

It is truly discouraging, because the Latin American Left is one of the essential components of the front against Western imperialism, standing shoulder to shoulder with Russia and China, but also South Africa, Iran and other proud nations.

*It is easy to understand the reasons behind all this. Even in some of the most revolutionary nations of Latin America, the Western mass media outlets have been managing to retain their presence, often through the right-wing big business cable TV and satellite distributors.* Most of the biggest newspapers are still in the hands of local business interests.

*And so the negative and misleading messages about Russia and China are spread constantly. People are bombarded with them from the television screens, from the pages of mass-circulation newspapers, and from the imported (Western) films.*

Many are resisting. They instinctively want to cling to both Russia and China. But they don’t have enough “ammunition”; not enough positive and inspiring information is available to them. In the meantime the critics are armed to the teeth with toxic propaganda that is mass-produced in New York, Los Angeles, London and Madrid.

And the situation is much worse in Asia.

There, the Empire has truly and fully mobilized all available resources, in order to discredit its two main adversaries.

Speaking to my friends and colleagues in such places like Indonesia and Philippines, I was told that most of the people there know little, even close to nothing about Russia. It is still perceived through the Cold War and post-Cold-War stereotypes. The Western propaganda apparatus has been portraying Russians as cold, aggressive, brainwashed and dangerous.

*Great Russian culture, Russian arts and the exceptional warmth of the Russian people, are something almost totally unknown in most of the Asian nations.*

Great foreign policy successes of Russia, like those in Syria, are twisted and turned into the crimes, even in Muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia, where “people should definitely know better”.

In India, which had been for decades very close to the Soviet Union, the situation is somehow brighter, but only among the extremely small and educated group of its citizens. There, like in many other parts of the world, pro-business and pro-Western mass media is skillfully defending the interests of the West, demonizing all that is standing in the way of the Empire.

*China is being targeted with an even greater and more malicious force than Russia. Successful and Communist China is the worst nightmare for the West and for the local, Asian ‘elites’.*

The entire propaganda apparatus is now in overdrive, spreading ideological attacks and negative messages. *The most peaceful major country on Earth is being portrayed as an aggressor and threat to regional and world peace. In the Philippines and elsewhere, the global Western regime is arousing the cheapest and extremely dangerous bellicose forms of nationalism.*

The local Chinese diaspora of Southeast Asia that consists mainly of the anti-Communist elements, descendants of the people who left China after the revolution, are playing an extremely important and destructive role.

*Nobody seems to notice that the United States/NATO is encircling both Russia and China with its military bases, while deploying new offensive missile systems. Nobody talks about those tens of millions of people who were massacred during the Western invasions of Asia during the 20th century.*

And the situation is not much different in Africa and elsewhere.

*

True, both Russia and China have invested some substantial resources in order to counter the Western propaganda. The RT, Sputnik and NEO (New Eastern Outlook), have all become extremely effective global information and intellectual detoxification outlets.

*But the West is still investing more. The ideological war is even something that is lately being discussed openly in Washington. The more Russia and China resist and the more they defend themselves; the more Western propaganda steps up its indoctrination campaigns.*

Clearly, both Russia and China have to do more, not only for their own interests, but also for the good of the world.

The great achievements of China and Russia have to be explained in detail. Such information should be spread to all corners of the planet.

*In this field, China should learn from Russia, as the Chinese media outlets now available abroad are still too ‘timid’ and too reconciliatory.* It requires real strength and determination to counter the mighty and centuries-old Western propaganda and brainwashing schemes. It also requires large financial budgets.

But the intellectual ‘resistance’ and the ideological wars should not be fought only in the fields of the politics, news and analyses. The tremendous cultural and intellectual achievements of both China and Russia should be made available to the populations on all continents. China has done so already a lot, mainly through its Confucius Institutes. It should be doing more, and so should Russia.

Both countries are in possession of marvelous cultural wealth, overflowing with wisdom and arts. Their humanism is much deeper than that of the West – the West that has been mainly building its wealth, for centuries, by plundering the Planet.

For as long as one can remember, both Europe and North America had been committing genocides, while enslaving entire continents. *At the same time, they have been engaging in self-glorification, promoting their political, economic and cultural concepts. They claimed cultural superiority.* And they have been doing it with such force, such ruthlessness and in the end with such success, that they have managed to fully indoctrinate most of the world into accepting that there is really no alternative, no other way (except the Western way) forward.

There are naturally other ways, and needless to say, much better ones!

In fact, before European colonialism began ruining and enslaving the planet, almost all parts of the world were living in much more developed and gentler societies than those of the West.

Now very little is known about this fact. Alternatives are not discussed in the mainstream, anymore. The search for a better world, for more humanistic concepts, is almost totally abandoned; at least in the West and in its colonies and ‘client” states.

It as if this horrid nightmare, into which the world had been forced into by the global Western dictatorship, is the only imaginable future for our human race.

It is not. And there are two great countries on this planet, Russia and China, which can offer many alternatives. They are strong enough to withstand all the pressure from the West. They have hearts, brains; they have the know-how and resources to offer alternatives and to re-start millennia old, essential discussions about the future of our humanity.

But in order for this to happen, the world has to first know about both Russia and China. It has to understand their cultures.

The war against imperialism should be fought not only on the battlefields; it should be fought on the airwaves, at the printing presses, in the concert halls and theatres. Kindness, humanism, internationalism and knowledge can often serve as weapons much more powerful than missiles, strategic bombers and submarines.

@vostok , @Jlaw , @ahojunk , @Chinese-Dragon , @ChineseTiger1986 , @AndrewJin , @Tiqiu , @cirr _et al_.

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## ahojunk

For a start, China should help Russia build up its own "Internet Firewall" to filter out all the filth.

And China should learn from RT and Sputnik on how to disseminate news.

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## Jlaw

Installing a Chinese RT is a start. Also Chinese people in general are not as patriotic as Russians. China need to start from within. Their current Globtal Times is a joke. As they supposed to be right wing news, yet they allow foreigners to write opinion pieces that undermine their whole objective.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Jlaw said:


> Installing a Chinese RT is a start. Also Chinese people in general are not as patriotic as Russians. China need to start from within. Their current Globtal Times is a joke. As they supposed to be right wing news, yet they allow foreigners to write opinion pieces that undermine their whole objective.



Exactly, without CPC, China will still eat dust right now.

That's why those foreigners hate CPC so much.

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> Installing a Chinese RT is a start. Also Chinese people in general are not as patriotic as Russians. China need to start from within. Their current Globtal Times is a joke. As they supposed to be right wing news, yet they allow foreigners to write opinion pieces that undermine their whole objective.



I agree about a Chinese RT in multiple languages with studios in each global centers.

Global Times is supposed to be leftist/Marxist with a high level of political consciousness and patriotism. But at times some opinion pieces (in its English version) actually propagates right wing political and economic ideas (such as fundamentalist liberalism).

An aggressive, no apology rhetoric is important. Being a nice and cuddly panda does not do the purpose. Need to present some teeth and claws. Ridicule, belittling, naming, demonizing, associating, mud-slinging, etc.; these kinds of tactics must extensively be used, just as they are used effectively by the Western media.

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## TaiShang

onebyone said:


> In both cases, the aggressor is trying to claim territory it doesn’t own.



Wow, the tabloid already figured out who does not own the SCS. I guess we need to follow the suit and start debating who really owns the southern states that the US invaded and took away by force from Mexico in the 1840s.

Besides, the US flying all the way to China's doorstep is not aggressive. China confronting being spied is aggressive. One needs to be as low as US regime media to make such assertions.



onebyone said:


> Beijing is conducting a long-term campaign to seize control of the South China Sea, a plan that also involves the creation of artificial islands that it then packs with military assets.



As if the US never created artificial structures on Hawaii or Guam. What is the difference?

On its way out, Team Obama (whatever it is, but the tabloid use the term to make it look like some extremely professional group of hard working smart USers sitting down around table and saving the world) will get used to be gently pushed away. One step back at a time.

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## BDforever

onebyone said:


> Two Russian Sukhoi Su-24s fly over USS Donald Cook in the Baltic Sea on April 12.Photo: EPA
> A Chinese jet fighter last week conducted an “unsafe” intercept of a US spy plane in international airspace over the East China Sea. It’s starting to become a trend — one the Obama administration needs to reverse.
> 
> It’s the second such incident in a month — on top of a series of Russian jets repeatedly buzzing US planes and a Navy ship in the Baltic. Beijing and Moscow both seem to think Team Obama can be bullied.
> 
> Worse, the Chinese moves directly violate a US-China agreement last September on rules of behavior on air encounters — one that was supposed to reduce tensions.
> 
> On top of the real risk of injury from a collision in the latest intercept, China also managed an insult: At the time, Secretary of State John Kerry and Treasury Secretary Jack Lew were in Beijing for an annual meeting.
> 
> In both cases, the aggressor is trying to claim territory it doesn’t own.
> 
> Beijing is conducting a long-term campaign to seize control of the South China Sea, a plan that also involves the creation of artificial islands that it then packs with military assets.
> 
> Moscow, meanwhile, is out to assert dominance in the Baltic — intimidating Norway and Sweden as well as Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.
> 
> Team Obama’s non-response to the Russian provocations probably encouraged China to give it a whirl.
> If the White House similarly ignores the latest provocations, expect the likes of Iran or North Korea to be next. And their pilots are a lot less expert — boosting the odds of a fatal collision.
> 
> Put it in baseball terms: When the other team starts throwing too many brushback pitches, your players have to respond. And it’s far better to do so early — before you wind up with a bench-clearing brawl.
> http://nypost.com/2016/06/11/obama-needs-to-make-russia-china-stop-playing-chicken-with-us-planes/


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## greenwood

Lunch time, i want the chicken into my belly.

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> I agree about a Chinese RT in multiple languages with studios in each global centers.
> 
> Global Times is supposed to be leftist/Marxist with a high level of political consciousness and patriotism. But at times some opinion pieces (in its English version) actually propagates right wing political and economic ideas (such as fundamentalist liberalism).
> 
> An aggressive, no apology rhetoric is important. Being a nice and cuddly panda does not do the purpose. Need to present some teeth and claws. Ridicule, belittling, naming, demonizing, associating, mud-slinging, etc.; these kinds of tactics must extensively be used, just as they are used effectively by the Western media.



It does sound left as hell but western media deem global times as a "right wing mouthpiece of the Chinese government"

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> It does sound left as hell but western media deem global times as a "right wing mouthpiece of the Chinese government"



I think they mistake fascism with communism.

Communism is left. Fascism is right. Capitalist west is neo-fascist. China's state ideology is socialist-communist. Global Times, although might voice certain right-liberal ideas, is perfectly left.

NYT or WP, on the other hand, right, that is, potentially fascist.

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## senheiser

_*Russia developing aircraft engine for joint passenger jet with China*
Published time: 20 Jun, 2016 14:32
Get short URL




© Valeriy Melnikov / Sputnik


Construction of a heavy-lift aircraft engine for a Russian-Chinese long-range wide-body aircraft has started, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told reporters on Monday.


"We’ve informed the Chinese side about the beginning of work on Russia's heavy-lift aircraft engine in the thrust segment of up to 35 tons. The decision was made by the Russian president in May, with all the necessary funds allocated",_ Rogozin said after the meeting of the Russian-Chinese intergovernmental commission.

According to Rogozin, the new plane will have two engines instead of four.

_“Neither the Soviet Union nor Russia have ever developed such a powerful engine. They are manufactured only by General Electric and Rolls-Royce,"_ said Rogozin, adding_“now this kind of engine will also be developed for the Russian-Chinese joint project."_

_"All development issues of a new passenger jet will now be solved, because you can't have a plane without an engine,"_ he added.

The memorandum on the creation of a new airliner was signed in 2014 during President Vladimir Putin’s visit to China. It is part of a $13 billion aviation cooperation deal.

A specially-created engineering center in Russia will undertake technical and electronics production while the construction of fuselage and the assembly of the airplanes will take place in China.

The new 250-280 seat aircraft will reportedly be a development of the Russian-designed IL-96. It will have a range of 12,000km. According to the managing director of Air Transport Observer magazine, Maksim Pyadushkin, the cost of the plane is estimated at $200-260 million which is similar to the American Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

The first planes are expected to be completed by 2023 and to go on sale in 2025.

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## TaiShang

senheiser said:


> _*Russia developing aircraft engine for joint passenger jet with China*
> Published time: 20 Jun, 2016 14:32
> Get short URL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Valeriy Melnikov / Sputnik
> 
> 
> Construction of a heavy-lift aircraft engine for a Russian-Chinese long-range wide-body aircraft has started, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told reporters on Monday.
> 
> 
> "We’ve informed the Chinese side about the beginning of work on Russia's heavy-lift aircraft engine in the thrust segment of up to 35 tons. The decision was made by the Russian president in May, with all the necessary funds allocated",_ Rogozin said after the meeting of the Russian-Chinese intergovernmental commission.
> 
> According to Rogozin, the new plane will have two engines instead of four.
> 
> _“Neither the Soviet Union nor Russia have ever developed such a powerful engine. They are manufactured only by General Electric and Rolls-Royce,"_ said Rogozin, adding_“now this kind of engine will also be developed for the Russian-Chinese joint project."_
> 
> _"All development issues of a new passenger jet will now be solved, because you can't have a plane without an engine,"_ he added.
> 
> The memorandum on the creation of a new airliner was signed in 2014 during President Vladimir Putin’s visit to China. It is part of a $13 billion aviation cooperation deal.
> 
> A specially-created engineering center in Russia will undertake technical and electronics production while the construction of fuselage and the assembly of the airplanes will take place in China.
> 
> The new 250-280 seat aircraft will reportedly be a development of the Russian-designed IL-96. It will have a range of 12,000km. According to the managing director of Air Transport Observer magazine, Maksim Pyadushkin, the cost of the plane is estimated at $200-260 million which is similar to the American Boeing 787 Dreamliner.
> 
> The first planes are expected to be completed by 2023 and to go on sale in 2025.



Excellent. I bet, when President Xi and President Putin come together in couple of days for SCO meeting, they will also talk about this.

I heard President Putin also plans a state visit to China this or next month.

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## Beidou2020

TaiShang said:


> Excellent. I bet, when President Xi and President Putin come together in couple of days for SCO meeting, they will also talk about this.
> 
> I heard President Putin also plans a state visit to China this or next month.



http://tass.ru/en/politics/883467

Putin state visit to China is on June 25th.

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## cirr

Just the SCO market is large enough for hundreds of C929s.

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## TaiShang

Beidou2020 said:


> http://tass.ru/en/politics/883467
> 
> Putin state visit to China is on June 25th.



A slew of big deals and further improvement in strategic cooperation.

One day later, South Korean PM is flying to Beijing.

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## Daniel808

Nice Cooperation between China and Russia Industry Aviation 

Waiting for C929 Project Development.

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## vostok

As @Barmaley posted today - it will be PD-35 engine with 35 tonnes trust.

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## Tshering22

TaiShang said:


> Excellent. I bet, when President Xi and President Putin come together in couple of days for SCO meeting, they will also talk about this.
> 
> I heard President Putin also plans a state visit to China this or next month.



All the best.

About time someone from Asia breaks this duopoly from Europe and North America. 

New aircraft means more orders and more competition.

Any concept designs released for public info yet?

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## Daniel808

*COMAC C929 Wide Body Aircraft Concept 











Specifications Comac C929.



Crew: 3 rights;
Passenger capacity: 350 people (depending on version);
Length of aircraft: 53,5 m .;
Wingspan: 55,6 m .;
The height of the aircraft: 13,6 m .;
Weight of empty aircraft: 115000 kg. (Depending on version);
Payload: 105000 kg. (Depending on version);
Maximum takeoff weight: 220000 kg. (Depending on version);
Cruising speed: 920 km \ .;
Maximum airspeed: 950 km \ h .;
Maximum range of flight: 10000 km .;
Maximum height of flight: 14500 m .;
Type of aircraft engine: turbofan;
Power plant: in the decision-making process.
Power: decision-making process

*

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## onebyone

*June 21, 2016*
asia, china, economic impact, europe, future, geopolitical, indonesia, pakistan, russia, world

A multibillion-dollar high-speed rail deal between China and Russia is expected to be signed during Russian president Vladimir Putin’s visit to Beijing this week, when the two nations are expected to extend military cooperation.

China’s foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang announced on Monday the Putin would start his state visit on June 25.

Up to 30 trade agreements could be signed. China has recently confirmed plans to provide a 400 billion-rouble (HK$48 billion) loan to build a high-speed railway between the Russian cities of Moscow and Kazan.

In April, two Chinese state banks agreed to lend more than US$12 billion to develop a liquefied natural gas plant in the Russian Arctic, after more than a year of delays. Negotiations between the two sides were complicated by US sanctions against the project’s majority shareholder Novatek, which is partly-owned by Putin’s close ally and Russian billionaire Gennady Timchenko.






If implemented, the deal would make China the biggest consumer of Russian gas, importing 68 billion cubic metres annually.

The railway deal is expected to be signed, and the first batch of the loan for the gas deal is expected to be agreed upon during Putin’s upcoming visit, said Alexander Gabuev, a senior associate and the chair of the Russia in the Asia-Pacific Programme at the Carnegie Moscow Centre.

_China is a large market for commodities… [and] a source for capital, technology, and infrastructure. Russia has an abundance of mineral resources, which requires capital, technology, and infrastructure. That’s a natural match_

China will invest around 4.7 trillion yuan ($724 billion) in transport infrastructure projects over the next three years. The 2016-2018 plan from China's Ministry of Transport and National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) will see China push forward 303 key transportation projects including railways, highways, waterways, airports and urban rail.

The investment plan would improve the country's high-speed transport networks and inter-city links to meet the demands of China's wider economic and social development.

The China led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) has its war chest ready for action. Bank president Jin Liqun said on Tuesday that the bank has approved a $1.2 billion lending portfolio this year and will make those projects known on June 24.

Early projects are expected in Pakistan and Indonesia is also high on the list. 








Developing the new Silk Road, if it works, could bring an economic prosperity to a vast and complex region often mired in poverty and religious violence. If it brings modernity, it opens the door for made in China technologies and brands that, for now, are largely closed due to lack of market depth along the Silk Road target nations.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/06/more-china-russia-infrastructure-and.html

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## war&peace

Pakistan, China and Russia will only move closer in the future.

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## somebozo

war&peace said:


> Pakistan, China and Russia will only move closer in the future.



While India has been an ally of Russia for long time..the path of Russian prosperity is via Pakistan..

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## war&peace

somebozo said:


> While India has been an ally of Russia for long time..the path of Russian prosperity is via Pakistan..


Thanks to Allah


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## Nilgiri

somebozo said:


> While India has been an ally of Russia for long time..the path of Russian prosperity is via Pakistan..



http://comtrade.un.org/data/

Pak Russia trade in 2015: 400 million USD

India Russia trade in 2015: 7 billion USD (17 times more)

And then we have news like this one:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...with-indian-companies-to-sell-stake-in-fields

Has Pakistan's puny economy invested even 1 dollar into Russia?

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## That Guy

Nilgiri said:


> http://comtrade.un.org/data/
> 
> Pak Russia trade in 2015: 400 million USD
> 
> India Russia trade in 2015: 7 billion USD (17 times more)
> 
> And then we have news like this one:
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...with-indian-companies-to-sell-stake-in-fields
> 
> Has Pakistan's puny economy invested even 1 dollar into Russia?


You don't become best friends, after decades of hostility and one shadow war.

Things are going to take their time, but both sides are improving their relations, with Russia selling helicopters, and requested to build a pipeline within Pakistan.

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## Nilgiri

That Guy said:


> You don't become best friends, after decades of hostility and one shadow war.
> 
> Things are going to take their time, but both sides are improving their relations, with Russia selling helicopters, and requested to build a pipeline within Pakistan.



Well India and China do a lot of trade and investment with each other. I don't see us being exclusive paths to each other's prosperity though....nor looking to indulge in high level military trade either.

I don't think Russia is going to sell anything critical military wise to Pakistan in the current decade or even next one....and we will have to sit back and wait how the trade relationship develops between the two rather than speculate wildly.


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## Perpendicular

Nilgiri said:


> I don't think Russia is going to sell anything critical military wise to Pakistan in the current decade or even next one.


Probably if Indians are smart enough and continue on the current development path (Economically Militarily), those two odd decades should be enough to grow ourselves out of this pakistani quagmire forever.

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## Zarvan

Russia wants to be part of CPEC that is why they are also offering us SU-35

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## Nilgiri

Zarvan said:


> Russia wants to be part of CPEC that is why they are also offering us SU-35



Where have they offered you the Su-35? Lets see an official Russian source and not some Pakistan media hyperbole....like JF-17 Sri Lanka saga.


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## Zarvan

Nilgiri said:


> Where have they offered you the Su-35? Lets see an official Russian source and not some Pakistan media hyperbole....like JF-17 Sri Lanka saga.


Talks are taking place and and soon you would hear about it. As for Sri Lanka its buying JF-17 and also is Myanmar and talks are taking place with several more countries. I know you are jealous because your beloved TEJAS has turned out to be a total disaster. But JF-17 is working and growing and expanding.

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## Nilgiri

Zarvan said:


> Talks are taking place and and soon you would hear about it. As for Sri Lanka its buying JF-17 and also is Myanmar and talks are taking place with several more countries. I know you are jealous because your beloved TEJAS has turned out to be a total disaster. But JF-17 is working and growing and expanding.



OK so no confirmed sources on anything. Just as expected: HOT AIR.

Maybe Russians like to listen to you guys talk and waste time hehe.


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## Zarvan

Nilgiri said:


> OK so no confirmed sources on anything. Just as expected: HOT AIR.
> 
> Maybe Russians like to listen to you guys talk and waste time hehe.


You would see it really soon Mr until than you can keep satisfying yourself that nothing is happening because this is your favourite past time before you get a major shock of Russia making deal with Pakistan for SU-35

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## war&peace

Nilgiri said:


> OK so no confirmed sources on anything. Just as expected: HOT AIR.
> 
> Maybe Russians like to listen to you guys talk and waste time hehe.


You are becoming a hot air balloon with jealousy but that's understandable

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## Nilgiri

Zarvan said:


> You would see it really soon Mr until than you can keep satisfying yourself that nothing is happening because this is your favourite past time before you get a major shock of Russia making deal with Pakistan for SU-35



Define really soon? This month? Next few months? This year?

Or will it be one of those always eternally "really soon"? (Just like tomorrow never actually arrives).


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## somebozo



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## Beidou2020

Would be nice to have a mutual defense treaty between Russia and China.

Something similar to article 5 of the NATO treaty should be done where a country can invoke article 5 where others come to their defense in a time of crisis.

It would act as a strong deterrence against aggression.

Russia and China need to take their alliance to the next level. Both need to stick together.

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## My-Analogous

Zarvan said:


> You would see it really soon Mr until than you can keep satisfying yourself that nothing is happening because this is your favourite past time before you get a major shock of Russia making deal with Pakistan for SU-35



Don't hurt Indian ego my friend


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## ahojunk

_I hope this thread will consolidate all the news on the One Belt One Road, Silk Road (land and maritime) and related stuff._

@AndrewJin @Beast @Beidou2020 @bobsm @Chinese Bamboo @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @cirr @cnleio @Daniel808 @Dungeness @dy1022 @empirefighter @FairAndUnbiased @greenwood @grey boy 2 @GS Zhou @hexagonsnow @hirobo2 @j20blackdragon @Jguo @jkroo @Jlaw @JSCh @lcloo @Mista @Nan Yang @onebyone @powastick @qwerrty @rcrmj @rott @S10 @Shotgunner51 @Stranagor @sweetgrape @TaiShang @terranMarine @Tiqiu @WSHH @XiaoYaoZi @xunzi @Yizhi @yusheng @PaklovesTurkiye 
--------
*China-Europe railway line offers more than economic benefits*
(Xinhua) Updated: 2016-06-27 08:06






_A fully-loaded freight train heads to Lyon, France, from Wuhan, Hubei province. [Photo provided to China Daily]_


*Big boost to culture, technology and tourism expected to deepen friendly ties*

"Look, it's the train from China!" The waiting crowd broke into a loud applause. Standing among them, Tomasz Gorzelak, chief executive of Polish Hatrans Logistics Company, waved at the train cheerfully with a bright smile on his face.

This was a moment captured at a midday Thursday at a railway station in the central Polish city of Lodz, where a freight train carrying dozens of cargo containers just entered the platform after a journey of merely 10 days from Chengdu, capital city of Sichuan province in Southwest China, to Poland.

As soon as the train stopped, logistics workers from the Polish side started to unload the containers, under the coordination of Gorzelak.

"These containers are loaded with mobile phones, tablets, laptops and accessories for electronic devices from China," said he while busy monitoring the crane operations.

These "made in China" goods, according to Gorzelak, will soon be delivered to various regions in Poland and reach clients within hours.

"The current China-Europe railway is just like a 'new Silk Road' linking China with central and eastern European countries," Gorzelak said.

"In ancient times, we had the historic Silk Road, which served as a trade route and an economic corridor linking China and the West for some 2,000 years, and it really played an indelible role in both economic and cultural exchanges between both sides," he explained.

Gorzelak said he believes that with the support of the Belt and Road Initiative, the significance of the China-Europe express trains will go beyond economic values and benefits.

"The trains will also build a bridge for bilateral exchanges on culture, technology and tourism, help further enhance mutual understanding and deepen the friendship between the two peoples," he said.

As one of the major rail routes between China and Europe, the Chengdu-Europe Express Railway Service began operation on April 23, 2013, linking Chengdu with Lodz, an emerging European logistics transit hub. This route was extended in April this year to Kutno, another city in central Poland.

To take full advantage of this direct rail route, Chengdu has proposed a new strategic plan named "Chengdu-Europe Plus," which is in line with the Belt and Road Initiative, according to Chen Zhongwei, director of Chengdu logistics office.

"We aim to become a pivot for logistics between Europe and pan-Asia by expanding international railway networks and establishing a European commodity distribution center," said Chen.

According to the new plan, goods from Europe will be distributed from the city to China's Pearl River Delta, Yangtze River Delta and Bohai Economic Rim, as well as some Southeast Asian countries and regions. Meanwhile, Chinese products transported through the Chengdu-Europe express route will be distributed to European countries from Kutno, Chen explained.

The municipal governments of Chengdu and Lodz have established offices in each other's cities to better coordinate and promote the logistics route, and about 400 cargo trains are expected to take this route in 2016, said Liu Lijuan, commercial counsellor of the Chinese Embassy in Warsaw.

"China's Belt and Road Initiative and European Coordinators agenda proposed by the European Union (EU) complement each other," Liu said, adding that a successful cooperation between the two will provide new export opportunities for Polish products.

"Synergies between China, EU development plans and frequent exchanges of goods and personnel have laid the groundwork for a strong China-Poland partnership," Liu said.

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## ahojunk

*Russia to develop new China rail link*





_A Russian railway container terminal_

*SHANGHAI:* *June 15, 2016. RZD Holding, part of Russian Railways, is developing a direct rail link with China across Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Belarus – the last two countries are members of the Eurasian Economic Union.*

The announcement by Russian Railways president Oleg Belozerov follows a meeting with Lee Hechun, chairman of the China Yingkou Port Group, who confirmed interest in establishing a joint Russian-Chinese logistics center in the Moscow region.

The two sides plan container rail services linking Yingkou with Moscow via Gomel in Belarusia, and Yingkou to Dobra in Slovakia, in order to reduce transit times between China’s southeast region and Europe by nearly 50 percent.

Belozerov commented: “Russia faces the acute question not only of developing the transport and logistics infrastructure in the country’s eastern regions, but also of creating optimal overland freight delivery transit routes. This requires, on the one hand, using our national territory as much as possible, and on the other taking advantage of the opportunities presented by the integration processes across the Eurasian space.”

Russian Railways is currently involved in the integration of the Baikal-Amur Main Line and the Trans-Siberian Railway that last year saw volumes increase 3.9 percent to over 113 million tons. Between 2010 and 2015 container traffic on the route has risen 57 percent to nearly 504,000 TEU.

“We provide a number of services that allow shippers to deliver freight door-to-door on a regular and frequent basis. Two of our main products are ‘The Trans-Siberian in 7 days’ and ‘The Baikal Shuttle’. However, we need more of these kind of services and are therefore developing a completely new range of high-quality products which we will soon be ready to offer to our customers,” said Belozerov.

He added that TEU rates for transit container shipments on fast trains via Russia’s Far Eastern ports to Europe are now discounting up to 60 percent, depending on the container size and the route.

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## ahojunk

_The belt and road in Eastern Europe._

--------
China Deepens Ties with Eurasian Countries
2016-06-24 16:46:04 | CRIENGLISH.com | Web Editor: Liang Tao

*By Xu Qinduo*

It takes eight hours from Serbia's capital of Belgrade to Budapest, the capital of Hungary by train which runs at a speed of some 40 kilometers per hour. In China, the travel time of a similar distance by high speed rail is two hours, such as from Shanghai to the neighboring city of Ningbo. That's part of the reason why Chinese President Xi Jinping paid a visit to Serbia as China is helping modernizing the rail system that will reduce the travel time between Belgrade and Budapest to some three hours. 

President Xi's visit to Serbia and Poland in Europe and Uzbekistan since last week can be viewed in the backdrop of the famous One Belt One Road initiative. The OBOR aims to build stronger land connectivity through Central Asia to Europe as well as by sea route through Southeast Asia, Africa to Europe.







The latest trip can also be seen as an effort by Beijing to strengthen its relationship with Europe by investing more in Central and East European Countries or CEEC. Under the "16+1" framework, the 16 CEEC countries and China have met and worked on bilateral ties for years.

If you take a look at the global community, China is probably the only country that possesses the capability to commit huge investment in infrastructure construction and trade. And that's what the Chinese President's trip was all about.

For Serbia, Xi Jinping's arrival was regarded as the beginning of Spring after a long Winter. Everything will blossom after the visit, said Serbian officials. It's the first time that a Chinese state leader has visited the Central European country in 30 years. For Belgrade, the visit is historic not only in being the first, but also the positive changes expected to be brought about to the country of seven million. 

In anticipating the Mr. Xi's arrival, Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic told China Radio International that, "Serbia will sign 24 cooperative agreements with China, such a number has never been the case during any world leaders' visit to our country."

He said China's investment to Serbia is of great importance, and could solve a variety of problems of Serbian companies from the past, which the country could hardly deal with without the Chinese side.

What sounding a bit funny is that, according to Mr. Nikolic, "many countries already envy Serbia" and their presidents have asked whether they could visit during Xi's stay here, so they could arrange a meeting.

And indeed, China is offering a hand in resolving Serbian companies' problems. Beijing invested 46-million-euro to purchase Serbia's century-old steel plant Smederevo and is to transform the plant into one of the most competitive firms in Europe with its latest technologies.

The deal may be just one of numerous investments by Chinese companies around the world. But it's critical to a small country like Serbia. The plant employs 5,050 people and all the jobs are kept. Compared to a loss of 113 million US dollars last year, the plant will receive some 300 million dollars investment from the Chinese side.

As for the nation, a Reuters report says Belgrade believes the deal is expected to "push Serbia's growth to up to 4 percent in 2017, more than double the official forecast for this year."

During his stop in Poland, the largest trading partner of China in the region, President Xi witnessed a visual and emotional moment when an express freight train steadily rolled into a cargo terminal in Warsaw. The China Railway Express arrived from Chengdu, capital of Sichuan Province after a 13-day journey. The new train service will facilitate Poland to export more agricultural products to a huge Chinese market, like milk, meat and apples.

Polish officials say some 20 freight trains run between China and Poland each week carrying electronics, food stuffs, alcohol and car parts. The journey takes less than two weeks, which creates a huge advantage compared to the 40-day transit by sea.

Poland sits in the center of Europe and nearly all such trans-continental trains from China go through Poland. Taking advantage of its strategic position, Poland says it was discussing "massive investments" with Beijing.

In Uzbekistan the last leg of President Xi's Eurasian trip, he witnessed the opening of a 19.2-kilometer railway tunnel that brings Uzbekistan's populous Ferghana Valley with the rest of the country. The tunnel, the biggest Chinese-led project in the region, is also said to be the largest of its kind in Central Asia.

President Xi addressed Uzbekistan’s parliament, the first ever given by a foreign leader. During his speech, rounds of enthusiastic, standing applause were registered. Xi told them that “this unique tunnel will become an important link in the international, China-Central Asia-Europe railway transit corridor.” 

His Uzbek counterpart Islam Karimov expressed warm gratitude to China that “I want to tell you that we have a proverb: ‘You know a friend in times of hardship.’ China is indeed such a friend that has lent a hand at a difficult time.” Uzbek economy is going through a challenging time as, Russia, one of its major trade partners, suffers from biting sanctions from Western countries. 

The Uzbek trip also brought Xi to the gathering of leaders of Shanghai Cooperation Organization countries. One key agenda of the summit is to officially grant membership to both India and Pakistan, a welcoming move to cement stability and peace in this region.

A set of pipelines, roads and railways have already been built up to link China to countries in Central Asia and Europe. For example, Yiwu is connected to Madrid, Zhengzhou to Hamburg, Lianyungang to Rotterdam, Chongqing to Duisburg.

Xi's latest trip presents as a solid step of more connectivity along route of Silk Road. Every country that falls into the grand program is expected to benefit from the Chinese initiative.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Man...That is awesome !!! Can't control excitement and imaginaion when same such scenes will b seen with respect to CPEC.....All the best for your efforts....

Haters are gonna hate.....

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## ahojunk

@PaklovesTurkiye
_Here is some news on CPEC. I hope CPEC will bring lots of benefits to Pakistan, especially to the rural poor.
CPEC is part of the Belt and Road.
_
--------
*CPEC project’s completed part bringing tangible benefits to people: envoy*
10 HOURS AGO BY INP






The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a major and pilot project under the Belt and Road Initiative, has made progress and benefited local people, top Chinese diplomat said on Sunday.

The CPEC project goes well on the whole and the completed part is bringing tangible benefits to local people, Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan Sun Weidong said in an interview with Xinhua.

Sun said the two countries had launched a host of early harvest projects focusing on energy and transport infrastructure to meet Pakistan’s immediate needs.

In the energy sector, 16 projects have been sorted out to be implemented first, which can generate 10.4 million kilowatts of electricity in total, Sun said, adding that half of the projects have been under construction, and will help Pakistan ease its power shortages.

A solar power plant in the city of Bahawalpur, built by the Chinese company ZTE Energy, has recently installed a 300-megawatt generator unit, which can produce 480 million kWh annually, enough to satisfy the daily power consumption of at least 200,000 Pakistani families, Sun said.

Regarding transportation, Sun said, phase II of the Karakorum highway, the Multan-Sukkur section of the Lahore-Karachi highway, and the Pakistan portion of a cross-border optical cable project are already underway.

As the largest transportation project under the CPEC, the 392 km-long Multan-Sukkur stretch is expected to create nearly 10,000 jobs at the peak of its construction, the ambassador added.

According to incomplete statistics, the CPEC projects under construction have employed more than 6,000 Pakistani workers by the end of March, not mention the employment indirectly created and driven by the projects, Sun said.

Furthermore, Chinese companies participating in CPEC helped residents in remote areas of Pakistan gain access to clean water, electricity and better transportation.

China’s Three Gorges Corporation and Tebian Electric Apparatus have provided generators, solar lights and water purification units to residents in remote regions while China Road and Bridge Corporation has repeatedly helped locals build makeshift bridges and water ducts and taken part in rescue and relief operations.

The China Development Bank, Huawei, China State Construction Engineering Corporation, as well as other Chinese entities, have also sponsored Pakistanis to receive further education in China, donated school buses to Gwadar and set up education funds, which have received wide praise from the local population.

According to Sun, the government, the parliament, the military, the media, and think tanks in Pakistan are all paying close attention to the progress of CPEC and offering their full support.

The CPEC, which highlights energy, transport, the Gwadar port and industrial cooperation at the current stage, has formed the “1+4” layout, and will seek to expand cooperation to such sectors as finance, science and technology, education, poverty alleviation, and urban planning.

“The CPEC is a mutually-beneficial and win-win cooperation, which will contribute to the prosperity and development of China, Pakistan and the region and the building of a community of shared destiny between the two countries,” Sun said.

“We will fully implement the important consensus reached by the leaders of China and Pakistan, and push forward the construction of CPEC to benefit the Chinese and Pakistani peoples,” Sun added.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

ahojunk said:


> @PaklovesTurkiye
> _Here is some news on CPEC. I hope CPEC will bring lots of benefits to Pakistan, especially to the rural poor._
> 
> --------
> *CPEC project’s completed part bringing tangible benefits to people: envoy*
> 10 HOURS AGO BY INP
> 
> View attachment 314010
> 
> 
> The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a major and pilot project under the Belt and Road Initiative, has made progress and benefited local people, top Chinese diplomat said on Sunday.
> 
> The CPEC project goes well on the whole and the completed part is bringing tangible benefits to local people, Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan Sun Weidong said in an interview with Xinhua.
> 
> Sun said the two countries had launched a host of early harvest projects focusing on energy and transport infrastructure to meet Pakistan’s immediate needs.
> 
> In the energy sector, 16 projects have been sorted out to be implemented first, which can generate 10.4 million kilowatts of electricity in total, Sun said, adding that half of the projects have been under construction, and will help Pakistan ease its power shortages.
> 
> A solar power plant in the city of Bahawalpur, built by the Chinese company ZTE Energy, has recently installed a 300-megawatt generator unit, which can produce 480 million kWh annually, enough to satisfy the daily power consumption of at least 200,000 Pakistani families, Sun said.
> 
> Regarding transportation, Sun said, phase II of the Karakorum highway, the Multan-Sukkur section of the Lahore-Karachi highway, and the Pakistan portion of a cross-border optical cable project are already underway.
> 
> As the largest transportation project under the CPEC, the 392 km-long Multan-Sukkur stretch is expected to create nearly 10,000 jobs at the peak of its construction, the ambassador added.
> 
> According to incomplete statistics, the CPEC projects under construction have employed more than 6,000 Pakistani workers by the end of March, not mention the employment indirectly created and driven by the projects, Sun said.
> 
> Furthermore, Chinese companies participating in CPEC helped residents in remote areas of Pakistan gain access to clean water, electricity and better transportation.
> 
> China’s Three Gorges Corporation and Tebian Electric Apparatus have provided generators, solar lights and water purification units to residents in remote regions while China Road and Bridge Corporation has repeatedly helped locals build makeshift bridges and water ducts and taken part in rescue and relief operations.
> 
> The China Development Bank, Huawei, China State Construction Engineering Corporation, as well as other Chinese entities, have also sponsored Pakistanis to receive further education in China, donated school buses to Gwadar and set up education funds, which have received wide praise from the local population.
> 
> According to Sun, the government, the parliament, the military, the media, and think tanks in Pakistan are all paying close attention to the progress of CPEC and offering their full support.
> 
> The CPEC, which highlights energy, transport, the Gwadar port and industrial cooperation at the current stage, has formed the “1+4” layout, and will seek to expand cooperation to such sectors as finance, science and technology, education, poverty alleviation, and urban planning.
> 
> “The CPEC is a mutually-beneficial and win-win cooperation, which will contribute to the prosperity and development of China, Pakistan and the region and the building of a community of shared destiny between the two countries,” Sun said.
> 
> “We will fully implement the important consensus reached by the leaders of China and Pakistan, and push forward the construction of CPEC to benefit the Chinese and Pakistani peoples,” Sun added.



Everyone in Pakistan, believe me, is talking about CPEC......There is not a single person in Pakistan, even if they criticize CPEC through different aspects (becoming minority due to flow of outsiders, or traders who are showing concerns about cheap but competitive Chinese goods) they are not denying the importance, significance and benefits CPEC will bring to Pakistan and region.....

Pakistanis, as a nation, are very committed to this project. Our political and military leadership demonstrates again and again their willingness to complete this project.....We will complete this project at all costs....No power can stop this......I have heard, one Chinese cargo will reach to Gwadar as Gwadar will be operational by the year end.......

Damn, we are moving ahead.

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## ahojunk

_Money talks, bullsh*t walks!
Money, money and money for the Belt and Road initiative. 
This Silk Road Fund one of them. The AIIB is another one. _

@PaklovesTurkiye
_Pakistan is lucky, it has an exclusive 46 billion CPEC fund._

--------
*EBRD, Silk Road Fund agree to cooperate*
By Svitlana Pyrkalo
15 Jun 2016





_MoU signed by EBRD First Vice President Phil Bennett and Silk Road Fund President Wang Yanzhi_

*Memorandum of Understanding paves way for joint projects with fund set up to support China’s Belt and Road Initiative*

A cooperation agreement has been reached between the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) and the Silk Road Fund, established to implement China's Belt and Road initiative, inspired by the ancient Silk Road connecting China and Europe.

A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed today in Beijing, China, was a further step forward in the Bank’s cooperation with China which became the EBRD’s 67th shareholder on 15 January this year.

In the MoU, the Silk Road Fund and the EBRD agree to boost cooperation at an institutional level and to inform each other of any potential co-investment opportunities in their common regions of operations.

Phil Bennett, EBRD First Vice President, said at the signing: “Today’s Memorandum is a new step in an already close working relationship with the Silk Road Fund which we regard as a key partner in China and potentially in the EBRD countries of operations. Our regions have a funding gap of about US$ 400 billion a year for necessary infrastructure investments. A joint effort by all stakeholders is needed to bridge that gap and we see working with partners like the Silk Road Fund as the most efficient way forward.”

For the Silk Road Fund the MoU was signed by Wang Yanzhi, Board Member and President of the Fund, who said: “We are glad that our working relationship with the EBRD is signified with the signing of the Memorandum today. Stretching from central Asia to central and eastern Europe to northern Africa, the EBRD’s areas of operation cover many strategic nodes along the Belt and Road Initiative, and are important investment destinations for Chinese corporates. We look forward to seeing the two institutions co-finance important projects soon and together promote regional and global connectivity for common development.”

The Silk Road Fund is a development and investment fund dedicated to supporting infrastructure, resources and energy development, industrial capacity cooperation and financial cooperation in countries and regions involved in China’s Belt and Road Initiative.

The Belt and Road Initiative runs through Asia, Europe and Africa. It is aimed at promoting the orderly and free flow of economic factors; the highly efficient allocation of resources and deep integration of markets; encouraging the countries along the Belt and Road to achieve economic policy coordination and carry out broader and more in-depth regional cooperation of higher standards; and jointly creating an open, inclusive and balanced regional economic cooperation architecture that benefits all.

http://www.ebrd.com/news/2016/ebrd-silk-road-fund-agree-to-cooperate.html

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## PaklovesTurkiye

@shah1398 @Talwar e Pakistan @Pomegranate @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @smuhs1 @graphican @war&peace @maximuswarrior @HAKIKAT @Max @Lucky Breeze 

Time to make some money along with Chinese Brethren??

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## ahojunk

*NHA striving for early completion of western route of CPEC*
11 HOURS AGO BY APP






The National Highway Authority is striving for early completion of western route of China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) and it is also among the top priorities of the government.

An official of National Highway Authority (NHA) told APP that construction of Hakla-DI Khan has started and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif performed the ground-breaking of Hakla-Dera Ismail Khan Motorway.

This project is an important part of western route of CPEC and the 285 km-long motorway will be completed in two years at a cost of more than Rs 142 billion. He said that the project alignment starts at Hakla, near Tarnol interchange on M-1 and passes through Fateh Jhang, Mianwali, Kundal and ends at Yarak at Indus Highway (N-55).

He said the alignment of motorway passes through developing areas and its construction will generate new employment opportunities. Availability of high-speed transportation will pave way for improvement of health and education sectors as well, and local produces will easily be taken to the big markets.

He said that ground-breaking of the up-gradation of Zhob-Mughalkot section was performed by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in December 2015.

He said that up-gradation of Zhob-Quetta highway has also been realised and work on Sorab-Hoshab section was in progress. He said 193 Km Hoshab-Turbat-Gwadar portion has been completed.

He said rehabilitation of DI Khan-Mughalkot section of N-50 would be completed by 2018. Moreover, he said that dualization of 531 km DI Khan to Kuchlak section of N-50 would be operational by 2020.

About dualisation of 211 km Quetta-Kalat-Surab section, he said it was planned to be completed by 2020.The objective of the CPEC is to promote trade ties with neighbouring countries Central Asian States and South Asian countries, which will ultimately prepare the make Pakistan a trade hub in this whole region, he said.

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## grey boy 2

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> @shah1398 @Talwar e Pakistan @Pomegranate @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @smuhs1 @graphican @war&peace @maximuswarrior @HAKIKAT @Max @Lucky Breeze
> 
> Time to make some money along with Chinese Brethren??



Hopefully the "18% interest rate FIVE HEADED HYDRA" will vanished as the CPEC continued to progress

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## PaklovesTurkiye

ahojunk said:


> *NHA striving for early completion of western route of CPEC*
> 11 HOURS AGO BY APP
> 
> View attachment 314013
> 
> 
> The National Highway Authority is striving for early completion of western route of China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) and it is also among the top priorities of the government.
> 
> An official of National Highway Authority (NHA) told APP that construction of Hakla-DI Khan has started and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif performed the ground-breaking of Hakla-Dera Ismail Khan Motorway.
> 
> This project is an important part of western route of CPEC and the 285 km-long motorway will be completed in two years at a cost of more than Rs 142 billion. He said that the project alignment starts at Hakla, near Tarnol interchange on M-1 and passes through Fateh Jhang, Mianwali, Kundal and ends at Yarak at Indus Highway (N-55).
> 
> He said the alignment of motorway passes through developing areas and its construction will generate new employment opportunities. Availability of high-speed transportation will pave way for improvement of health and education sectors as well, and local produces will easily be taken to the big markets.
> 
> He said that ground-breaking of the up-gradation of Zhob-Mughalkot section was performed by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in December 2015.
> 
> He said that up-gradation of Zhob-Quetta highway has also been realised and work on Sorab-Hoshab section was in progress. He said 193 Km Hoshab-Turbat-Gwadar portion has been completed.
> 
> He said rehabilitation of DI Khan-Mughalkot section of N-50 would be completed by 2018. Moreover, he said that dualization of 531 km DI Khan to Kuchlak section of N-50 would be operational by 2020.
> 
> About dualisation of 211 km Quetta-Kalat-Surab section, he said it was planned to be completed by 2020.The objective of the CPEC is to promote trade ties with neighbouring countries Central Asian States and South Asian countries, which will ultimately prepare the make Pakistan a trade hub in this whole region, he said.



Yes...Government is hoping that progress on CPEC will bring them another 5 years of Government. Government is very serious about it.....There is a dedicated thread for CPEC, all updates/progess and discussion you can see over here.......

https://defence.pk/threads/china-pakistan-economic-corridor-cpec-updates-discussions.259273/page-43



grey boy 2 said:


> Hopefully the "18% interest rate FIVE HEADED HYDRA" will vanished as the CPEC continued to progress



....I have seen no proof of this 18% rate of interest.....Pakistani members disagreed with that too.......Don't know form where our Indian friends bring this number........from propaganda office?

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## war&peace

CPEC will only benefit Pakistan i.e. no tangible risks. The reports of CPEC destroying local industry are vastly exaggerated since it is a trade route and not just for importing Chinese good into Pakistan. While cheap Chinese goods are already flooding Pakistani markets and it is a fact regardless of the existence of CPEC. To protect industry, govt can take some measures and industry should try to be competitive in quality and price. You cannot keep selling antiquated design and poorly engineered good forever. They will need to be innovative and creative instead of using the same old tactics.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

war&peace said:


> CPEC will only benefit Pakistan i.e. no tangible risks. CPEC destroying local industry are vastly exaggerated for since it is a trade route and not just for importing Chinese good in Pakistan. While cheap Chinese goods are already flooding Pakistani markets and it is a fact regardless of the existence of CPEC. To protect industry, govt can take some measures and industry should try to be competitive in quality and price. You cannot keep selling antiquated design and poorly engineered good forever. They will need to be innovative and creative instead of using the same old tactics.



Agreed, bro. We should fight all propaganda flooding internet regarding CPEC. We all know who opposed this wonderful project.

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## ahojunk

_What, are you kidding me? 
The ADB wants a piece of the CPEC pie.
If that is the case, CPEC must be doing well._

--------
ADB to invest in CPEC, Gwadar city projects
THE EXPRESS TRIBUNE > BUSINESS
By Shahbaz Rana | Published: June 21, 2016






Gwadar Port - it's going to be a beauty!

ISLAMABAD: The Asian Development Bank (ADB) has expressed keen interest in investing in the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) and in the Gwadar city to complement efforts made by both the countries, but it has not yet received a formal request from the federal government.

“The CPEC, Special Economic Zones and other initiatives have huge financial needs and the ADB can complement Pakistan and China’s efforts,” said ADB Vice President Wencai Zhang while speaking to media at the conclusion of his five-day visit to Pakistan on Monday.

The ADB has provided Pakistan loans amounting to over $27 billion over a period of 50 years and the purpose of the VP’s visit was to find new areas of cooperation and to get first-hand information about economic cooperation.

“I visited Gwadar for the first time and was so impressed by the quality and potential of the Gwadar port, located at such an important place,” said Zhang while sharing his feelings.

“The port needs a lot of investment in coming years. Authorities have named a few projects for transport, city development, water supply and road and rail to link Gwadar with other cities for which they seek the ADB support,” he added.

He said the authorities would first have to talk to the central government for the ADB support and that the bank had so far received no formal request from the government.

However, he added the bank – one of the two largest lenders to the country – would “certainly complement what China and Pakistan are doing along the economic corridor”. “The ADB will not duplicate what the two countries have already agreed to,” he maintained.

Present on the occasion, ADB Country Director Werner Liepach said the bank was actively looking at how to leverage the potential the CPEC offered. “If you only built the road; it’s only for transit, but the CPEC opportunity has to be realised,” he said.

“We are in talks with the government to find ways to develop the economic corridor.”

The ADB vice president said he had also discussed a plan to invest in the Pakistan Railways on a medium to long-term basis. “The railway minister mentioned three main lines but we have not yet picked any line for investment.”

He said the bank was keen to support the railways but first wanted to see a clear roadmap for sector’s reform, one that showed that the sector would be economically and financially viable in the years to come.

“Pakistan has achieved a lot of macroeconomic and financial stability, but the challenge of how to achieve higher economic growth remains,” he said, adding in order to take the current 4-5% growth rate to 7%, Pakistan needed more investment as the investment-to-GDP ratio was still very low.

“Export diversification remains another challenge the country needs to address,” he added.

The ADB distanced itself from the on-going GDP growth fudging allegations levelled by the parliamentarians and independent economists.

“The 4.7% growth estimate for 2015-16 was in line with the projections made by the international financial institutions,” the country director stated.

Zhang said the ADB had invested a lot in the energy sector to support reforms and remove bottlenecks, and it would continue with its heavy investment in the sector.

He said the lender was “overall satisfied with the progress in the energy sector and the government is broadly on track”. The two-year deadline to end load-shedding is realistic but depended on a lot of factors.

The ADB and Pakistan also signed an agreement for a $100 million loan to build the remaining 64km section of the motorway (M-4) connecting Shorkot and Khanewal in Punjab.

_Published in The Express Tribune, June 21st, 2016._

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## grey boy 2

Good news pal, thanks for sharing

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## Tiqiu

war&peace said:


> CPEC will only benefit Pakistan i.e. no tangible risks. The reports of CPEC destroying local industry are vastly exaggerated since it is a trade route and not just for importing Chinese good into Pakistan. While cheap Chinese goods are already flooding Pakistani markets and it is a fact regardless of the existence of CPEC. To protect industry, govt can take some measures and industry should try to be competitive in quality and price. You cannot keep selling antiquated design and poorly engineered good forever. They will need to be innovative and creative instead of using the same old tactics.


I can't comment on how CPEC will affect your local industry as I really don't know your country well. However, we can study and look at some of the cases in history as a precedent for a judgement. When China opened up some 40 years ago, it incurred lots of debts from literally zero national debt to build hotels,roads, power plants and etc. As a result, business people from outside could come,live and invest in China, which in turn taught the Chinese people how to compete with the rest of the world and how to innovate. So for Pakistan, CPEC will lay down the foundation so Pakistani can compete,innovate and change the rest of the world.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> A cooperation agreement has been reached between the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) and the Silk Road Fund, established to implement China's Belt and Road initiative, inspired by the ancient Silk Road connecting China and Europe.



This is vey critical in terms of OBOR's Eurasian expansion which aims eventually to connect China's east to Europe's west.

A potential cooperation agreement with EBRD was being mentioned last year but that was basically between EBRD and AIIB. I am pleasantly surprised that the SRF is also included in the scheme.

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## ahojunk

_Belt and Road news from Kazakhstan......_

--------
China, Kazakhstan Pledge to Align Development Strategies
2016-06-24 16:16:37 | Xinhua Web | Editor: Guo Jing





_Chinese President Xi Jinping (R) meets his Kazakh counterpart, Nursultan Nazarbayev (L) in the Uzbek capital Tashkent on June 24, 2016. [Photo: Xinhua]_

Chinese and Kazakh leaders vowed here Friday to seek synergy between their respective development strategies amid efforts to boost bilateral cooperation.

The two sides should speed up and well plan the aligning of the China-proposed Silk Road Economic Belt initiative and Kazakhstan's new economic policy named the Bright Road, and strengthen cooperation in a wide range of areas, according to Chinese President Xi Jinping and his Kazakh counterpart, Nursultan Nazarbayev.

They made the pledge during a meeting on the sidelines of an annual summit of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) in the Uzbek capital Tashkent.

Xi reviewed the bilateral cooperation since the two countries established a comprehensive strategic partnership five years ago, saying that rapid progress and fruitful results have been achieved.

"China and Kazakhstan have become a community of common interest and shared future in a real sense," he said. "The Chinese side is willing to work with Kazakhstan to lift our cooperation to a higher level."

Xi suggested that the two countries keep close high-level contacts, support and coordinate with each other on major issues of their respective concern, and always plan for cooperation from a strategic height and a long-term perspective.

He called on the two countries to make the best use of the new model the two countries have created for industrial capacity cooperation, to push for the early implementation of related projects as well as cooperation in agriculture, energy, local affairs, cultural and people-to-people exchanges, and environment protection.

China supports Kazakhstan in hosting a "China Tourism Year" in 2017, Xi said.

The president also said that China is willing to enhance cooperation with Kazakhstan in the United Nations and other multilateral platforms.

China will offer strong support to Kazakhstan after it takes over the rotating chair of the SCO following the Tashkent summit, to jointly contribute to the greater development for the organization, Xi added.

Nazarbayev extended his warm congratulations on the 95th anniversary of the founding the Communist Party of China, which falls on July 1.

He said that it is a priority in the foreign policy of Kazakhstan to develop a relationship with China featuring good-neighborliness, mutual trust and friendship.

Kazakhstan firmly supports China's Silk Road Economic Belt initiative, and wants to initiate bilateral industrial capacity cooperation projects at an early date, such as in auto and chemical engineering industries, and to increase cooperation in trade, agriculture, logistics, infrastructure and tourism, Nazarbayev said.

The Kazakh side stands ready to make joint efforts with China to ensue a sound development of the SCO, he added.

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## qwerrty

this project probably won't go anywhere, because china can do it all by themselves using experience from building the y20, c919, cseries and many airbus planes. it will get cancelled just like the joint asian regional jet when china quit and all solo with their arj21.. from previous reports, all sub-components will be western, then later on with russian or chinese just like mc21 and c919. why 50/50 share your huge market that will grow even more bigger with russia when you can do it all yourself?

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## Beidou2020

qwerrty said:


> this project probably won't go anywhere, because china can do it all by themselves using experience from building the y20, c919, cseries and many airbus planes. it will get cancelled just like the joint asian regional jet when china quit and all solo with their arj21.. from previous reports, all sub-components will be western, then later on with russian or chinese just like mc21 and c919. why 50/50 share your huge market that will grow even more bigger with russia when you can do it all yourself?



I'd also prefer China to do this by itself. But I guess these kind of projects can help the relationship.

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## Lucky Breeze

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> .I have seen no proof of this 18% rate of interest.....Pakistani members disagreed with that too.......Don't know form where our Indian friends bring this number........from propaganda office?


*Loans to the Pakistani Government*
Approximately $11 billion worth of infrastructure projects being developed by the Pakistani government will be financed by concessionary loans, with *composite interest rates of 1.6%*, after Pakistan successfully lobbied the Chinese government to reduce interest rates from an initial 3%.The loans are subsidised by the government of China, and are to be dispersed by the Exim Bank of China and the China Development Bank. For comparison, loans for previous Pakistani infrastructure projects financed by the World Bank carried an interest rate between 5% and 8.5%, while interest rates on market loans approach 12%.

The loan money would be used to finance projects which are planned and executed by the Pakistani government. Portions of the approximately $6.6 billion Karachi–Lahore Motorway are already under construction. The $2.9 billion phase which will connect the city of Multan to the city of Sukkur over a distance of 392 kilometres has also been approved,with 90% of costs to be financed by the Chinese government at concessional interest rates, while the remaining 10% is to be financed by the Public Sector Development Programme of the Pakistani government.In May 2016, the $2.9 billion loan were given final approvals required prior to disbursement of the funds were given by the Government of the People's Republic of China on May 4, 2016, and will be concessional loans with an interest rate of 2.0%. The National Highway Authority of Pakistan reported that contractors arrived on site soon after the loan received final approval.

The China Development Bank will finance the $920 million towards the cost of reconstruction of the 487 kilometer portion of the Karakoram Highway between Burhan and Raikot. An addition $1.26 billion will be lent by the China Exim Bank for the construction of the Havelian to Thakot portion of this 487 kilometer stretch of roadway, to be dispersed as low-interest rate concessional loans.

The long-planned 27.1 km long $1.6 billion Orange Line of the Lahore Metro is regarded as a commercial project project, and does not qualify for the Exim Bank's 1.6% interest rate. It will instead by financed at a 2.4% interest rate after China agreed to reduce interest rates from an originally planned rate of 3.4%.

The $44 million Pakistan-China Fiber Optic Project, a 820 km long fibre optic wire connecting Pakistan and China, will be constructed using concessionary loans at an interest rate of 2%, rather than the 1.6% rate applied to other projects.

*Interest-free loans for Gwadar projects*
The government of China in August 2015 announced that concessionary loans for several projects in Gwadar totalling $757 million would be converted 0% interest loans.The projects which are now to financed by the 0% interest loans include: the construction of the $140 million Eastbay Expressway project, installation of breakwaters in Gwadar which will cost $130 million, a $360 million coal power plant in Gwadar, a $27 million project to dredge berths in Gwadar harbour, and a $100 million 300-bed hospital in Gwadar. Pakistan will only repay the principle on these loans.

In September 2015, the government of China also announced that the $230 million Gwadar International Airport project would no longer be financed by loans, but would instead be constructed by grants which the government of Pakistan will not be required to repay.

*Loans to private consortia*
$15.5 billion worth of energy projects are to be constructed by joint Chinese-Pakistani firms, rather than by the governments of either China or Pakistan. The Exim Bank of China will finance those investments at 5–6% interest rates, while the government of Pakistan will be contractually obliged to purchase electricity from those firms at pre-negotiated rates.

As an example, the 1,223MW Balloki Power Plant does not fall under the concessionary loan rate of 1.6%, as the project is not being developed by the Pakistani government. Instead, it is considered to be a private sector investment as its construction will be undertaken by a consortium of Harbin Electric and Habib Rafiq Limited after they successfully bid against international competitors.Chinese state-owned banks will provide loans to the consortium that are subsidised by the Chinese government. In the case of the Balloki Power Plant, state-owned banks will finance the project at an interest rate of 5%,while the Pakistani government will purchase electricity at the lowest bid rate of 7.973 cents per unit.

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## Beast

qwerrty said:


> this project probably won't go anywhere, because china can do it all by themselves using experience from building the y20, c919, cseries and many airbus planes. it will get cancelled just like the joint asian regional jet when china quit and all solo with their arj21.. from previous reports, all sub-components will be western, then later on with russian or chinese just like mc21 and c919. why 50/50 share your huge market that will grow even more bigger with russia when you can do it all yourself?



Its more of Russia keen for the joint venture rather China. The announcement of the joint venture is more of a symbolic political gesture than real meaningful project. I bet there will be a similar project going on and 100% Chinese.

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## qwerrty

Beast said:


> Its more of Russia keen for the joint venture rather China. The announcement of the joint venture is more of a symbolic political gesture than real meaningful project. I bet there will be a similar project going on and 100% Chinese.


the y20 is huge aircraft. china has no problem designing large airframe. avic already made a large diameter fuselage structure for widebody jet for testing.. the composite material skin and structure on russian mc-21 and c919 are made by facc, a subsidiary of china's avic. according to reports, this joint widebody jet will use western sub-systems first including engines just like c919. can you see here? why do they even need russia?

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## ahojunk

*PRESS RELEASE*
*Putin-Xi Press Conference Reaffirms Commitment to Their Joint One Belt, One Road/Eurasian Economic Union as Global Alternative*

June 26, 2016 (EIRNS)—At the close of their June 25 summit in Beijing, presidents Xi Jinping of China and Vladimir Putin of Russia emerged to issue summary statements to the press.

President Xi began by referring to his discussions with "my old friend President Putin," and noted that

"President Putin and I have unanimously decided that the more complicated the international situation, the more determined we should be, guided by the spirit of strategic cooperation and the idea of eternal friendship."

He went on to explain that

"the two sides have the confidence and opportunity to expand regional economic cooperation, to overcome the global economic challenges and to maintain the positive dynamics of economic development through deepening practical cooperation and aligning our interests, in particular by converging the national development strategies One Belt, One Road and the Eurasian Economic Union."

Xi added that the "all-encompassing partnership and strategic interaction" of Russia and China included a commitment to

"sustaining the aims and principles of the UN Charter and the basic provision of international law, ensuring a global strategic balance... We oppose the use of force and threats of using force, casual introduction of sanctions and threats of sanctions."

President Putin noted that "Russia and China have very close or almost identical views on international development," and then centered most of his remarks on economic cooperation.

"The global economic crisis, instability on commodity markets and foreign exchange markets could not but affect our bilateral relations,"

Putin stated, and pointed out the joint measures that the two countries are adopting:

"To reduce dependence on foreign exchange markets, we are expanding the use of national currencies in mutual settlements. The share of payments in Russian rubles is three percent, and the share of the Chinese yuan is even greater at nine percent. The latter figure should rise significantly after Russia establishes a clearing and settlement center for the yuan. Our focus is on building up industrial cooperation, launching joint projects in infrastructure, resource development, and development of agriculture.... Cooperation in peaceful nuclear energy is growing.... We are expanding close cooperation in aircraft building and the space industry."

Putin also emphasized that the countries’ approach is centered on

"the concept of aligning the Eurasian Economic Union and the Silk Road Economic Belt. Today, an official start was announced for talks on a trade and economic cooperation agreement between our integration projects. It promises a new level of partnership, which presupposes the creation of a common economic space on the entire Eurasian continent."

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## ahojunk

_It is good that Hong Kong wants a piece of the belt and road pie. But it has to create its own opportunities._

--------
*Hong Kong is in prime position to benefit from China’s one belt, one road economic strategy*

*As a major connector in the region and globally, the city can capitalise on the opportunities presented by the Silk Road Initiative*

PUBLISHED : Tuesday, 21 June, 2016, 2:08pm
UPDATED : Tuesday, 21 June, 2016, 2:08pm
John Cremer

With its bold vision and extensive geographical reach, China’s one belt, one road initiative has the scope to transform patterns of trade, investment and thinking over the coming decades.

So far, all the talk suggests Hong Kong is in prime position to play a full part in whatever transpires and will be able to benefit accordingly.

However, it is equally true that any industry, multinational, consultancy, entrepreneur or service provider with hopes of capitalising on the opportunities can’t simply sit and wait.

*Contracts will not just flow their way*. Hong Kong’s banks and businesses will have to prove they are up to the challenge and be ready to fight for every dollar.

“Many Hong Kong contractors are ranked very high on a global scale and have the qualities and resources to pursue infrastructure opportunities along the belt and road,” says Agnes Chan, Hong Kong and Macau managing partner for EY. 

“*As a ‘superconnector’, Hong Kong is also well-placed to be a platform for financing*. For example, the sector’s experience can be utilised to raise funds for the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) via bond offerings, developing yuan products, or providing project financing for individual companies. This will help boost Hong Kong’s international status as a fund-raising centre and an offshore hub for trading renminbi.”

Having long acted as a bridgehead for mainland China to the rest of the world, the essential task now is to redirect as necessary, deploying existing skills and professional expertise in markets which remain largely untouched or untapped.

And selling what Hong Kong can offer requires new ideas, detailed planning and specific action. The city’s wealth of legal, financial and engineering know-how, its global networks, entrepreneurial spirit and all-round efficiency are a given. Impressing in future will take something more.

“For example,as an investment platform, Hong Kong’s treaty network is still not comprehensive enough,” Chan says.

“*We need to speed up the pace in concluding more double-taxation treaties with other countries in the belt and road region*.”

In today’s digital world, she adds, it is also important to do more to develop and retain talent. At a time of increasing mobility and changing expectations about the work in general and the workplace in particular, business models, accepted practices, collaboration and the presumed appeal of overseas assignments require regular review.

And in other respects, while Hong Kong as a whole can clearly claim a good under-standing of China, its economic strengths and investment environment, the same can hardly be said of countries such as Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan.

“How well do we know them?” Chan says. “We need a better understanding and a strategy to prioritise the roles of the business sector and the government. Hong Kong has to be innovative, leverage its strengths, and make full use of its soft power to develop a multi-pronged approach and make our ‘systems’ even more user-friendly and efficient.”

Public-private partnerships (PPP) may well point the way, where government is the enabler and private sector companies then get the job done. The model has a track record in areas like transport, infrastructure and even technology.

“Take the Silk Road Fund as an example,” Chan says. “It is state-owned money used to foster investment along the belt and road, allowing corporate investors to reduce their risks and be more courageous in their plans.”

Julian Vella, KPMG’s Asia-Pacific regional head for global infrastructure, notes that there are already significant PPP opportunities in China’s domestic market and growing demand for information about different models.

“Outbound PPPs in overseas markets are a very active part of our business,” Vella says. “The key is how risk can be shared between public and private sectors and how to reflect this in financing options, but we see real opportunities in [newer] markets.”

For Andrew Weir, KPMG’s regional senior partner in Hong Kong and the firm’s global chair of real estate and construction, there is a clear role to play as a service centre for the offshore aspects of the belt and road scheme, but there is no reason to stop there.

“This is such a broad economic development and policy initiative, there are many cross-sector aspects and opportunities,” Weir says. “Companies need to look closely at how best to position themselves and how to contribute.”

In principle, it is not just the big names in financing, construction and legal services that stand to benefit. Professionals in diverse areas like design, quality control, high-tech electronics and arbitration should also be assessing the possibilities.

“As businesses, we need to articulate and share Hong Kong’s already strong story and major role as a connector in the region and globally,” Weir says. “*Some practical matters are the ongoing development of tax treaties and information sharing, as well as understanding the emerging trade and investment agreements*.”

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## ahojunk

_There are multiple rail routes from China to Poland, France, Spain, Czech Republic, Germany and Netherlands. 
Probably, there are more to come._

--------
*China-Europe freight rail route boosts Silk Road trade*
2016-06-19 08:56 | Xinhua | _Editor: Feng Shuang_

When Zeng Minping and his family arrived in Warsaw, they were surprised to see so many Chinese-made products in their local Ikea store.

A salesclerk told them that the goods were shipped to Poland by rail and Ikea staff in the freight department often drove 140 km away to Kutno railway station in Lodz to fetch the goods.

The Yuxinou (Chongqing-Xinjiang-Europe) Railway stretches from Chongqing in southwest China to Duisburg, close to Germany's border with the Netherlands. Since January 2011, over 600 cargo trains have carried Chinese products to Europe.

Kutno is a key railway hub in Poland and central Europe and in 2014, the first China-bound cargo train departed from there.

Since then, the Yuxinou Railway has attracted cargo from neighboring countries to Kutno, with businesses keen to transport all kinds of products to China in the most efficient possible way.

Passing across the Chinese frontier through the Alataw Pass in Xinjiang, Europe-bound trains cross Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland and reach Germany after about 14 days.

In 2015, Zeng with his wife and daughter spent about three months to travel over 11,000 km through the route and reached the terminal in Duisburg.

During the journey they witnessed the rise of China's influence along the route, not just Chinese products but local people who can even speak some simple Chinese phrases and more and more people have heard of the Silk Road Economic Belt.

The Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, more commonly known as the *Belt and Road Initiatives* proposed by China, will see Chinese companies expand their presence abroad and greater regional integration and development in terms of infrastructure and trade.

The ancient Silk Road linked China and Europe, and people along the road traded not only commodities but exchanged their cultures and civilizations. Today, China is European Union's second largest trading partner and EU is China's largest trade partner.

Cargo trains were a logical development, opening a new channel for the transfer of goods to and from China's central and western regions to compete with the traditional maritime route from the east coast. *A total of 16 cities now have regular cargo trains to Europe*.

From Harbin in northeast China, Yiwu in the east, Wuhan and Changsha in central China, cargo trains carry IT equipment, automobiles and other products to Poland, Germany, Czech Republic and Spain, and bring the best of Europe to Chinese customers.

"The volume of our business is increasing by 50 to 60 percent every year," said Liu Lei, general manager of Shanghai Seacoast International Logistics Company, a shipping agent dealing with cargo trains leaving from Zhengzhou in central China's Henan Province.

Liu's company started their cargo train business over two years ago. As the route becomes more regular, freight volume keeps increasing and the cost has fallen by a half.

Rail freight is slower than air and more expensive than shipping, but Liu said its advantages attract specific clients and they are increasing.

The cargo is generally high added-value items and clients have strict demands on delivery requirements or have urgent orders, said Liu, whose clients are mostly German companies with factories in China.

Trains from Zhengzhou arrive in Poland, the gateway to the EU from the east. "Poland is now a major manufacturing base in the European Union with relatively low labor costs," said Liu.

"My business directly originated from Yuxinou route," said Yang Jie, executive president of HeKa International GmbH who has a mall for German products in Chongqing.

Born in Chongqing and now living in Germany, Yang sells Chinese products to Germany. Knowing that cargo trains from China often returned empty, Yang decided to transport German products back to hometown.

In November 2015, the 50,000 square meter "German Life Mall" opened in Chongqing. Yang expects annual sales to reach 5.5 billion yuan (835 million U.S. dollars).

Since the Belt and Road Initiatives began to take shape, over 1,700 trains have passed from China to Europe along 39 lines. Earlier this month, the government and China Railway Corporation (CRC) unified these routes under the China Railway Express brand.

A CRC press release hypothesized that the move would strengthen the overall competitiveness of Chinese railway transportation in the world.

"The rail route has promoted trade and economic exchanges along the Silk Road, and helped and driven the development of China's open economy," said Li Pumin, secretary general of China's National Development and Reform Commission.

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## TaiShang

*China Deepens Ties with Eurasian Countries*
2016-06-24 16:46:04 
CRIENGLISH.com Web Editor: Liang Tao

*






By Xu Qinduo*

It takes eight hours from Serbia's capital of Belgrade to Budapest, the capital of Hungary by train which runs at a speed of some 40 kilometers per hour. In China, the travel time of a similar distance by high speed rail is two hours, such as from Shanghai to the neighboring city of Ningbo. That's part of the reason why Chinese President Xi Jinping paid a visit to Serbia as China is helping modernizing the rail system that will reduce the travel time between Belgrade and Budapest to some three hours.

President Xi's visit to Serbia and Poland in Europe and Uzbekistan since last week can be viewed in the backdrop of the famous One Belt One Road initiative. *The OBOR aims to build stronger land connectivity through Central Asia to Europe as well as by sea route through Southeast Asia, Africa to Europe. *

The latest trip can also be seen as an effort by Beijing to strengthen its relationship with Europe by investing more in Central and East European Countries or CEEC. Under the "16+1" framework, the 16 CEEC countries and China have met and worked on bilateral ties for years.

If you take a look at the global community, China is probably the only country that possesses the capability to commit huge investment in infrastructure construction and trade. And that's what the Chinese President's trip was all about.

For Serbia, Xi Jinping's arrival was regarded as the beginning of Spring after a long Winter. Everything will blossom after the visit, said Serbian officials. It's the first time that a Chinese state leader has visited the Central European country in 30 years. For Belgrade, the visit is historic not only in being the first, but also the positive changes expected to be brought about to the country of seven million.

In anticipating the Mr. Xi's arrival, Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic told China Radio International that, "Serbia will sign 24 cooperative agreements with China, such a number has never been the case during any world leaders' visit to our country."

He said China's investment to Serbia is of great importance, and could solve a variety of problems of Serbian companies from the past, which the country could hardly deal with without the Chinese side.

What sounding a bit funny is that, according to Mr. Nikolic, "many countries already envy Serbia" and their presidents have asked whether they could visit during Xi's stay here, so they could arrange a meeting.

And indeed, China is offering a hand in resolving Serbian companies' problems. Beijing invested 46-million-euro to purchase Serbia's century-old steel plant Smederevo and is to transform the plant into one of the most competitive firms in Europe with its latest technologies.

The deal may be just one of numerous investments by Chinese companies around the world. But it's critical to a small country like Serbia. The plant employs 5,050 people and all the jobs are kept. Compared to a loss of 113 million US dollars last year, the plant will receive some 300 million dollars investment from the Chinese side.

As for the nation, a Reuters report says Belgrade believes the deal is expected to "push Serbia's growth to up to 4 percent in 2017, more than double the official forecast for this year."

During his stop in Poland, the largest trading partner of China in the region, President Xi witnessed a visual and emotional moment when an express freight train steadily rolled into a cargo terminal in Warsaw. The China Railway Express arrived from Chengdu, capital of Sichuan Province after a 13-day journey. The new train service will facilitate Poland to export more agricultural products to a huge Chinese market, like milk, meat and apples.

Polish officials say some 20 freight trains run between China and Poland each week carrying electronics, food stuffs, alcohol and car parts. The journey takes less than two weeks, which creates a huge advantage compared to the 40-day transit by sea.

Poland sits in the center of Europe and nearly all such trans-continental trains from China go through Poland. Taking advantage of its strategic position, Poland says it was discussing "massive investments" with Beijing.

In Uzbekistan the last leg of President Xi's Eurasian trip, he witnessed the opening of a 19.2-kilometer railway tunnel that brings Uzbekistan's populous Ferghana Valley with the rest of the country. The tunnel, the biggest Chinese-led project in the region, is also said to be the largest of its kind in Central Asia.

President Xi addressed Uzbekistan’s parliament, the first ever given by a foreign leader. During his speech, rounds of enthusiastic, standing applause were registered. Xi told them that “this unique tunnel will become an important link in the international, China-Central Asia-Europe railway transit corridor.”

His Uzbek counterpart Islam Karimov expressed warm gratitude to China that “I want to tell you that we have a proverb: ‘You know a friend in times of hardship.’ China is indeed such a friend that has lent a hand at a difficult time.” Uzbek economy is going through a challenging time as, Russia, one of its major trade partners, suffers from biting sanctions from Western countries. 

The Uzbek trip also brought Xi to the gathering of leaders of Shanghai Cooperation Organization countries. One key agenda of the summit is to officially grant membership to both India and Pakistan, a welcoming move to cement stability and peace in this region.

A set of pipelines, roads and railways have already been built up to link China to countries in Central Asia and Europe. For example, Yiwu is connected to Madrid, Zhengzhou to Hamburg, Lianyungang to Rotterdam, Chongqing to Duisburg.

Xi's latest trip presents as a solid step of more connectivity along route of Silk Road. Every country that falls into the grand program is expected to benefit from the Chinese initiative.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> What sounding a bit funny is that, according to Mr. Nikolic, "many countries already envy Serbia" and their presidents have asked whether they could visit during Xi's stay here, so they could arrange a meeting.


.
It's amazing what can happen when you have a big wallet. Everyone wants to be your friend, lol.

That's reality. You can talk all the bullsh*t but at the end of the day, it's money that matters.

So guys, do more, work harder and talk less.

Let the others do the talking but you just show them the results.

And there were plenty over the last few days;
- fastest supercomputer (Sunway-TaihuLight) and second fastest supercomputer (Tianhe-2),
- CZ-7 rocket,
- ARJ21 maiden flight,
- heavy-ion medical accelerator ready for clinical trials,
- new highways, expressways, tunnels, HSR lines, metro lines,
- Gaofen-4,
- Midea Offers to Buy Kuka AG,
- AIIB has made its first loans,
- first embedded neural network processing unit,
- 4G users exceed 500 million,
- one of the biggest heavy-lift ship,
- Aperture Spherical Telescope "FAST" almost complete,
- World's biggest 70-ton vibration-simulation table,
- scientists find the existence of the Majorana fermion particle,
- etc.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> .
> It's amazing what can happen when you have a big wallet. Everyone wants to be your friend, lol.
> 
> That's reality. You can talk all the bullsh*t but at the end of the day, it's money that matters.
> 
> So guys, do more, work harder and talk less.
> 
> Let's the others do the talking but you just show the results.
> 
> And there were plenty over the last few days;
> - fastest supercomputer (Sunway-TaihuLight) and second fastest supercomputer (Tianhe-2),
> - CZ-7 rocket,
> - ARJ21 maiden flight,
> - heavy-ion medical accelerator ready for clinical trials,
> - new highways, expressways, tunnels, HSR lines, metro lines,
> - Gaofen-4,
> - Midea Offers to Buy Kuka AG,
> - AIIB has made its first loans,
> - first embedded neural network processing unit,
> - 4G users exceed 500 million,
> - one of the biggest heavy-lift ship,
> - Aperture Spherical Telescope "FAST" almost complete,
> - World's biggest 70-ton vibration-simulation table,
> - scientists find the existence of the Majorana fermion particle,
> - etc.



Very poetically and factually put, my friend.

Talking won't fill the sails, neither will it fill the pockets. Money (economy) is what moves history. As the quote you put there shows, when you walk around with pockets full of money, people will love your soft power and sign up to benefit from your hard power.

China does not need to waste time by profuse talking. Doing and showing results (like island development regardless off what some others keep talking and objecting verbally) is the best form of expression.

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## ahojunk

*China’s one belt, one road initiative set to transform economy by connecting with trading partners along ancient Silk Road*

*Central government uses land and sea routes to connect with 65 countries in Asia, Africa and Europe, targeting five areas – infrastructure, trade, policy, finance and people*

PUBLISHED : Tuesday, 21 June, 2016, 2:46pm
UPDATED : Friday, 24 June, 2016, 3:36pm
Lee Hill-choi







In more than 30 years, China has become an economic superpower, with its influence spanning the globe.

The country is now at a crossroads as it finds its economy under some strain.

The central government wants to double 2010 income levels by 2020, as the nation is making a major push to transform its economy from a largely export-driven one to services and domestic consumption, from labour and energy-intensive manufacturing towards innovative, hi-tech and higher value-added production, and from quantity to quality and ecological sustainability.

Three years ago, President Xi Jinping announced the one belt, one road initiative, a key policy to connect trading partners along the ancient Silk Road.

The central government wants to *connect the nation with 65 countries in Asia, Africa and Europe through land and sea* routes. The strategy has laid out *five areas – infrastructure, trade, policy, finance and people* – of cooperation with one belt, one road, or Maritime Silk Road, countries and regions.

The Maritime Silk Road connects China’s east coast to ports, including Colombo in Sri Lanka, Gwadar in Pakistan, across the Indian Ocean, through the Red Sea to Greece’s Piraeus, ending in Venice. The overland economic belt connects Venice to Duisburg in Germany, across to Moscow, through Central Asia and western China to end in Xian, the ancient capital where the historic Silk Road began.

A recent business report suggested that the initiative will create six transnational China-centric economic corridors: a new Eurasian land bridge of freight trains connecting the port of Lianyungang in Jiangsu province to Rotterdam; a Mongolia-Russia corridor; a Central Asia-West Asia corridor; an Indochina peninsula corridor; a Pakistan corridor; and a Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar corridor.

The initiative is expected to have a major impact in China’s domestic front and internationally. One of the key domestic objectives is to accelerate the development of China’s west and central provinces. The plan divides the nation into five regions with infrastructure plans to connect with neighbouring countries and increase connectivity.

The strategy is huge in scale, with an equally massive price tag and three financial institutions are at the forefront of investing in the infrastructure projects.

The initiative is supported by China’s *Silk Road infrastructure fund* of US$40 billion, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (*AIIB*), with registered capital of US$100 billion; and the *New Development Bank* of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS countries) with an initial capital of US$50 billion, which is set to increase to US$100 billion.

Established in 2014, the China-led Silk Road Infra-structure Fund is mostly backed by China’s massive foreign exchange reserves, which stands at US$3.20 trillion.

The release of the “Vision and Actions of the Silk Road Economic Belt and 21st Century Maritime Silk Road” by China’s National Development and Reform Commission in March last year reinforces the initiative as a programme of cooperation and inclusiveness that abides with “market rules and international norms”.

The initiative focuses mostly on infrastructure and is expected to open up opportunities across industries. Professional services firms are preparing to meet investor demands, and are anticipating potential risks related to infrastructure projects associated with such a large-scale, cross-border initiative. Risk management and due diligence practices will be at the forefront of any business dealings coming from the ambitious strategy.

According to Bert Hofman, country director for China, Mongolia and Korea, East Asia and Pacific region at the World Bank, the large-scale nature of the one belt, one road initiative “could stimulate Asian and global economic growth”. He identifies the potential benefits for belt and road countries plagued by “underdeveloped infrastructure, low investment rates and low per-capita incomes”.

It isn’t just Asia looking to profit from the initiative. Britain is also keen to cooperate with China. “To win business ... we believe it is critical for UK companies to get involved in this initiative as soon as possible, in order to gain access to a wider tranche of the Chinese market and to third markets along the routes,” said the China-Britain Business Council. Inside China, the council identified several opportunities within provinces and industries. Alongside infrastructure, financial and professional services, agriculture and environment are key areas for growth and investment.

And will Hong Kong benefit from the initiative? Last month, in a _South China Morning Post_ report, China’s third highest-ranking official outlined how Hong Kong could seize the opportunities of the initiative.

Observers said incorporating the city into the plan was to be expected, given much of the groundwork was laid by a scheme to unite the economies of the pan-Pearl River Delta region.

Hong Kong was also a natural stepping-off point for Beijing as it sought to project its power throughout Southeast Asia, the observers said.

Zhang Dejiang, chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress, said Hong Kong was “a natural partner, [and] can join forces with the pilot free-trade zone in Guangdong and the Qianhai Shenzhen-Hong Kong cooperation zone and Fujian province, a core area for the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road”.

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## TaiShang

*While European Union is Collapsing, Eurasia is Integrating*

Originally appeared at *RIA Novosti*. Translated by Julia Rakhmetova

_The author is a columnist for the international news agency Rossiya Segodnya. Under the pen name Master Cheng, he also writes best-selling political thrillers set in South East Asia._

Dmitry Kosyrev

The idea in the title is too evident. While the Brits were voting to leave the EU, India and Pakistan were signing key SCO documents at a summit of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization in Tashkent. These two things happened – collapse there and integration here – on the same day. Below are details, and they are very interesting, as always.

*It’s not a stadium here*

First, let’s note that there were no official ceremonies in relation to the integration of India and Pakistan, two new flags were not added to the six ones of the current SCO members.

The decision on their entering was accepted a year ago at a summit in Ufa, and now the following happened: the leaders of the six SCO countries accepted memorandums on the commitments of their Indian and Pakistani colleagues to the conventions mandatory for each of its members. 

This is what President Vladimir Putin said on the subject at the concluding press conference: “You saw that we completed the affiliation of two large countries – India and Pakistan; there are only formalities left, and we can say that they are going to become full members of this organization by next year. After they enter, the organization will gain a new sound and a new weigh and we can say that the summit was a complete success.” The he answered questions on Great Britain and the EU.

As we can see, we’re not in a stadium playing the game Eurasia-EU 1:0. The SCO exists not to confront the others, even in a propagandist way.

Besides, the affiliation of the Indians and Pakistanis to all the SCO mechanisms is a matter of paperwork, but a long one; they still need to sign about 30 documents. It’s a long bureaucratic procedure that sometimes requires coordination with parliaments or other authorities. 

The summit was a formality. The documents, which were coordinated beforehand, were signed: the Tashkent declaration , the plan of action of the organization for 2016-2020 to achieve the Development Strategy by 2025, the report of the Council of Regional Anti-Terror Structures on its activity in 2015 and so on. 

The SCO changed the political geography of the globe on the first and other key stages of its operation (like the summit in Ufa), and today it is creating a cooperation infrastructure with many councils – often where it didn’t exist before. The summits only sum up the experience of what happened during the year, in a clerical way. This was especially evident in Tashkent.

*Don’t repeat mistakes of others *

The SCO is neither an alliance, nor a union, because all its members think that the time of unions has passed (as things happening to the EU and NATO demonstrate). Note the idea that oversaw the preparation of documents for the current summit, on reinforcement of the military component of the organization without changes in its status. This can lead to possible problems on the part of Afghanistan, and more precisely extremist, jihadist forces in the region. 

But if it is not a union, what is it then? Apparently, it’s an attempt to build a modern model of relations between countries that are united by region, but divided by many specificities, which they countries want to save, without being neutralized by rules and standards.

Is this a challenge to the standardized West? No, it’s just an attempt not to repeat its mistakes, which are very evident on Great Britain’s ‘independence day’. It’s an attempt, but we cannot know whether it will be successful. 

This is about ‘open regionalism’ – i.e. no one prevents the countries from becoming a member of other unions. This is a non-western approach, and sometimes it holds the SCO as an organization back, but it can’t be otherwise. 

It is specified in the document signed by India and Pakistan, that SCO members shouldn’t work against each other’s interests, though relations between many of them may be tense. The other thing is that the SCO serves as a venue where they may try to agree.

Let’s look at the list of the 18 countries who are members of the SCO. There will be 8 full members next year’s summit in Astana: China and India, Russia and Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirghizia. The others, which have observer or partner status, – are their neighbors, may be considering the integration process. It’s hard to imagine more different countries. 

The European countries were the also different at the beginning of integration. They kept track of the neutralization of specificities and reduction of sovereignty. As we can see now, they were mistaken. But this doesn’t mean that our integration is better – it has hardly started. According to some statements made by the president of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov, the host of the meeting, this time it was harder to prepare for the summit.

Right now, “the SCO’s formula” looks simple: prevent military and political shocks in Central Asia, build an infrastructure (roads, logistics centers, information bases and legal system), that would really unify all the countries of one region.

Note that culture and education, within the SCO, are part of that infrastructure,an overarching humanitarian space that is being created in Eurasia. The process is not only huge – it’s eternal.

And let’s not forget that the SCO does not encompass the whole range of relations, for example, between Russia and India, or China and Russia, but only that which relates to the newly-constructed region in Central Asia. It is a regional project. You could say, as Chinese do, that an ancient model of the world, which had the Great Silk Route as its center center, is being recreated, from China to Europe, but we all know that this is about shaping the future, not restoring the past.





Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit in Tashkent

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## greenwood

A European diplomat ever said: Europe has two type of nations. One type is small nations, another one is they have not realized they are small nations.

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## Zulkarneyn

Interesting developments take place. Russia +Turkey is mending ties. RUssian and Turkish higher ups are in Pakistan right now.


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## somebozo

EU is far from disintegrating yet...but with the departure of Britain it has been significantly weakened..Britain like France and Germany does not have its economic zone the the Eastern europe rather all British economic dependencies are overseas in Asia and Africa..

Other block which negatively affected by EU is southern European countries mainly Spain and Greece..their cost of export increased due to EURO and they are unable to compete in the mainland European market as well as other export markets..which led to their debt accumulation and subsequent default..


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## qwerrty

Beast said:


> *Its more of Russia keen for the joint venture rather China*. The announcement of the joint venture is more of a symbolic political gesture than real meaningful project. I bet there will be a similar project going on and 100% Chinese.



here's another one that we recently have heard a lot about on news and most probably will not go anywhere just like the jv widebody jet




----
*Sino-Russian cooperation in space-is it possible ?*
Posted on: June 27, 2016 at 10:01 pm


Few decades ago it would be considered as a joke but in the present conditions it could be considered as reality. According to Russian sources, cooperation with China in joint development of new super heavy launch vehicles which could be utilized during Moon mISSion is more than possible.

Both countries are developing own Moon exploration programs with ambitious goals. Russia is targeting for manned Moon missions and establishing lunar outpost in 2030s. China is planning further robotic exploration and creating large space station which will serve in future for Moon and deep space exploration. Of course China is not denying that they are targeting into manned mission to the Moon but still there is no timetable for this program. In spite of Moon landing, both countries are planning to establish own space stations and are posSESsing or developing heavy Rockets able to deliver to orbit large payloads: Angara in heavy version (and Soyuz-FG at the moment) and Long March 5. Fact that cooperation of these two countries could bring positive results for both partners seems to be obvious, but *until now, various propositions were rather given by Russia than China. Fact, that such cooperation was started, was unveiled by Anatoly Perminov, previous chief of the Roscosmos in 2006 along with declaration that joint Russian-Chinese Space Sub-Commission was working on appropriate agreement. Since 2006, Russia invited China many times for different kinds of cooperation in space, but without positive results*. One of the key joint programs was Phobos-Grunt space probe which was built by Roscosmos with participation of CNSA. Unfortunately after launch on November 8, 2011, probe failed to start its journey from parking orbit to Phobos (one of the Martian moons). In 2012 probe burnt in Earth atmosphere with Chinese Martian orbital probe Yinghuo-1 onboard. This failed mission was in fact only serious space venture which appeared since 2006 as result of Sino-Russian cooperation. On *April 2015 Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin announced about Russian proposition for starting cooperation with China for creating lunar base in near future (it was mentioned that it is possible to create base until end of 2020s). Unfortunately after meeting with Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang later in 2015, proposition was still proposition and Chinese side seemed not to be interested in such cooperation.*

*On June 25, 2016 in Beijing Russian President Vladimir Putin met with Chinese President Xi Jinping, but in spite of fact that meeting was on highest level, Sino-Russian cooperation will not dramatically change after this meeting. Russian side of course is able to claim that it was great success; China still declares will of buying famous Russian Energomash RD-180 engines, but still there was more declaring than true action. Previous declarations by Andrey Denisov, Russian Ambassador in China, that cooperation for new heavy rocket and combining efforts to accelerate Moon programs of both countries is natural and seems to be undISPutable, were premature.* Ambassador even predicted cooperation in deep space exploration and colonization of Moon:

“In a perspective, cooperation is perceptible in the field of designing a heavy rocket and establishing interaction in the sphere of space stations and long-distance flights.”

*Chinese side apparently has other plans for own space exploration*. Russia, which is strongly interested in selling arms and space Technologies to China to cover hole in the budget caused by numbers of sanctions after Crimea crisis could consider this business as recessed comparing to previous decades. China developed own technologies and when in the early 2000s, Russian Soyuz spacecraft and Russian weapon were bought by *China, now in fact China could sell to Russia own technology. Good examples of change in Chinese space industry could be next generation Chinese spacecraft which capsule scaled model was successfully tested on June 26, 2016, which development seems to be more advanced comparing to Russian “Federation” spacecraft. Another example could be, recently announced by CALT (China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technologies), starting development of new rocket which will be able to lift payload five times heavier than present Long March rockets. With such launch vehicle, CNSA will be able to seriously consider deep space missions including sending heavy payload to Mars or delivering large payload to the Moon. CALT also declared that maiden flight of the rocket is possible in next 15 years. Russia probably would like to see inside next generation Chinese rockets Russian engines, but for the moment it seems less possible.* Long March 7 which recently was successfully Launched from Wenchang Satellite Launch Center was equipped with YF-100 Chinese made rocket engines which were designed independently by Xi’an Aerospace Propulsion Institute.

*Russia also presented various propositions of participation in space medicine programs which could be useful for CNSA, especially due the ban for Chinese participation in International Space Station. According to Dmitry Rogozin Chinese side expressed “keen interest” in these projects but again without any clear declaration. At the moment Chinese space industry seems to be in very good condition*. Various advanced projects like new generation of Long March rockets, successful development of next generation spacecraft, started program of new hypersonic plane which could be considered as the beginning of the creating reusable space plane, successes of the Chang’e lunar probe and advanced plans of creating own space station puts at the moment China in more favorable position comparing to Russian partner. Roscosmos with shrinking budget, postponed Moon program and very general plans for own space station are able to offer China engines, technologies and know-how, but still it is possible that space industry of China is strong enough to achieve same technologies independently sooner or later without involving in cooperation with potential competitor.



Code:


http://www.satprnews.com/2016/06/27/sino-russian-cooperation-in-space-is-it-possible/

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## TaiShang

China's Eurasian strategy is eventually directed at Northern Europe. Hence, a weakened Europe is not necessarily for China's interests. The potential benefit of the UK exit from the EU is the likelihood of the EU having greater sovereignty to turn toward Eurasia. Without Western Europe, Eurasian framework is never complete.

For China, the most significant partner in its Eurasian push is Russia; therefore, mending and strengthening Russia-EU relations would be a boost for new-Eurasianism. UK exit, in this regard, also potentially beneficial.

If you check the OBOR map, the most investment so far went to the Northern Corridor, the road which goes through Russia into Eastern Europe and then to Western Europe.

This is where the future of Eurasia lies, in China's strategic calculation.

China-Russia-Eastern Europe and Western Europe. Other lines are secondary in importance. The one going into the Middle East through/or above Turkey is the weakest (least invested) one because of the inherent dangers and instabilities. If the sectarian, religious-autocratic, anti-nation state situation improves, China can think of reviving the line.

But this is long down the line.

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## Taimoor Khan

India is a anomaly in this regional embrace. While trying ever so hard to be accepted as American ally , punching above its weight while selling itself as regional check on China rise, it is also been shown its true worth by China in recent NSG meet. Maybe India is in SCO to be reminded as to who is the big daddy. Indians policies are not in line with SCO because of its turbulence relations with her immediate SCO neighboring members, China and Pakistan. How much India will be of use when it comes to actual trade and economic links, is questionable due to its geography, issues with neighboring Pakistan and China, and her own desire to contain China on the whims of America. 

With EU is doldrums, the Asia pivot of America will certainly be effected where the yanks will find themselves increasingly isolated in their confrontation with China.

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## TaiShang

*How Russia, China are Creating Unified Eurasian Trade Space*
© AFP 2016/ KIRILL KUDRYAVTSEV

16:29 23.06.2016(updated 18:29 27.06.2016) Get short URL


*Russia is pushing ahead with its project of a "more extensive Eurasian partnership" involving the Eurasian Economic Union, Moscow's CIS partners as well as China, India, Pakistan and Iran; meanwhile, Beijing and Moscow continue to build a Eurasian economic corridor that will stretch from Shanghai to Berlin.*

Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to Beijing, scheduled on June 25, aims to strengthen economic ties between Russia and China and facilitate the development of the countries' Eurasian projects.

In his interview with Xinhua, recorded on June 17 on the sidelines of the St Petersburg International Economic Forum, Vladimir Putin emphasized:

"It turns out that to say we [Russia and China] have strategic cooperation is not enough anymore. This is why we have started talking about a comprehensive partnership and strategic collaboration."

"'Comprehensive' means that we work virtually on all major avenues; 'strategic' means that we attach enormous inter‑governmental importance to this work," the President of Russia explained.






It is expected that the leaders of the two countries will sign more than 30 documents during Vladimir Putin's visit to Beijing.

"Predictably, the Russian President's trip to the People's Republic of China has become the focus of worldwide attention, especially after inking the agreement of integration of the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) and the China-led New Silk Road initiative on May 8, 2015," Sarkis Tsaturyan, a Russian-Armenian historian and international policy analyst, writes in his recent article for Regnum.

The analyst points out that over the past year Moscow has taken considerable steps in the Asian direction. For instance, on May 1, President Putin approved Federal law N120-FZ on ratification of free trade between the EAEU and Vietnam.

"Now Thailand is knocking on Russia's door," the analyst remarks, adding that not only Moscow is interested in Russo-Thailand rapprochement, but also Beijing, that is planning to build a navigation channel in the south of the kingdom, bypassing the Strait of Malacca.





© Sputnik/ Vladimir Astapkovich
Russian President Vladimir Putin delivers his address at the plenary session of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

However, there is much more to be done.

Speaking at the plenary session of the St Petersburg International Economic Forum on June 17 President Putin called attention to the fact that over 40 states and international organizations have expressed their willingness to establish a free trade zone with the EAEU, thus creating a "greater integration area."

"Our partners and we think that the EAEU can become one of the centers of a greater emergent integration area… Now we propose considering the prospects for more extensive Eurasian partnership involving the EAEU and countries with which we already have close partnership — China, India, Pakistan and Iran — and certainly our CIS partners, and other interested countries and associations," the Russian President underscored.





© Sputnik/ Vladimir Astapkovich

EEU, China Should Gradually Remove Barriers for Cooperation on Silk Road Belt - Putin

According to Tsaturyan, Vladimir Putin's message does not require further clarification, especially in the context of Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov's earlier speech at the State Duma on June 15.


During a Government Hour at Russia's State Duma Lavrov pointed out that* an agreement on trade and economic cooperation between the EAEU and China "is being drafted," as well as "an agreement in principle on a search for ways of integrating the development plans of the EAEU and the Silk Road Economic Belt."* He added that negotiations on establishing free trade zones with many states from different parts of the world are also underway.

"New horizons are opening up by the initiative of Russian President Vladimir Putin on the start of consultations between the member states of the EAEU, the SCO [Shanghai Cooperation Organization] and ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations] on forming a comprehensive Eurasian economic partnership in the future," Lavrov told the State Duma.





© AP Photo/ Mikhail Klimentyev
Russia, China, Mongolia to Sign Deal on Creation of Economic Corridor

Russia and China's initiatives are understandable in the light of the TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) and TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) projects championed by the US. Both countries are interested in creating a unified economic space in Eurasia.

Meanwhile, President of the People's Republic of China Xi Jinping has tested waters in Central and Eastern Europe during his latest trip. Remarkably, Beijing's initiative has received high praise in Warsaw and Belgrade, while the Baltic States are also seeking a way to jump on the New Silk Road bandwagon.

*Tsaturyan explains that the China-led New Silk Road initiative envisages the creation of a 13,000 km-long corridor that will cross China, Mongolia, Russia, Belarus, Poland and Germany.* As a result a unified economic space from Shanghai to Berlin will be established on the Eurasian continent, he stresses.

The analyst hinted at the fact that Germany and other major European countries are also interested in this integration process, regardless of Washington's obvious displeasure. According to Tsaturyan, Berlin and London seek to diminish the US' influence in Eurasia and swing the balance in their own favor.

Apparently, therefore German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier has openly denounced NATO's Anaconda-2016 military drills on Russia's doorstep as "warmongering" and "saber-rattling" that can deteriorate the situation on the continent and worsen the EU relations with Russia, the analyst suggests.

@vostok , @Chinese-Dragon , @AndrewJin

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> "Now Thailand is knocking on Russia's door," the analyst remarks, adding that not only Moscow is interested in Russo-Thailand rapprochement, but also Beijing, that is *planning to build a navigation channel in the south of the kingdom, bypassing the Strait of Malacca*.


.
@TaiShang

If this is true, Singapore will be greatly impacted.

Isn't Singapore part of the maritime silk route?

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## nadeemkhan110

China’s AVIC and Russian Helicopters have finalized an agreement to develop the Advanced Heavy Lift (AHL) helicopter, a new heavy-lift helicopter design based on the Mi-26 platform.

*Comment and Analysis*

The two sides committed to proceed to the program in May 2015. The AHL will be produced in China to help meet domestic civilian needs in the country. The impetus for such a platform emerged when the Mi-26TS played asignificant part in supporting humanitarian relief missions in China, particularly the earthquakes in Sichuan in both 2008 and 2013.

According to Russian Helicopters, the AHL is expected to have a lift capacity/payload of 10 tons internally and 15 tons externally. While principally designed as a civil-use helicopter, Russian Helicopters believes the AHL could be adapted for military use should a customer request it.

The focus on civilian use is not surprising. China is an immense market, one with a myriad of government and privately-owned entities that could make use of the AHL. From construction companies to agencies involved in medical evacuation and fire-fighting, the AHL will not be short on local demand. Rather, the AHL will join a number of other civilian-first helicopter platforms, the Airbus-AVIC Z-15/H175 and Airbus H215, in supporting the vast Chinese market.

In the long-term, China would be well-served by adapting the AHL (alongside other platforms) for military use if and where possible. The heavy-lift market in particular is narrow, with the CH-47 dominating usage in most major markets using heavy-lift helicopters. With the support of immense domestic usage as well as economies of scale, AVIC could make a competitively strong entry into the global market.
Source: http://quwa.org/2016/06/27/russia-china-proceed-develop-new-heavy-lift-helicopter/

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## yantong1980

Hmmm, sound logic, but my opinion geopolitics relationship is sometime quite 'different' than just simply logic. Please, don't so driven by this author of this article, or any article and it author that unrelated with Russia or China. Read anything that official from both countries about this subject, compare both and make your own assumption. Then I think the result will be closer.


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## Tshering22

Daniel808 said:


> *COMAC C929 Wide Body Aircraft Concept
> 
> View attachment 312949
> 
> View attachment 312950
> 
> 
> Specifications Comac C929.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Crew: 3 rights;
> 
> Passenger capacity: 350 people (depending on version);
> 
> Length of aircraft: 53,5 m .;
> 
> Wingspan: 55,6 m .;
> 
> The height of the aircraft: 13,6 m .;
> 
> Weight of empty aircraft: 115000 kg. (Depending on version);
> 
> Payload: 105000 kg. (Depending on version);
> 
> Maximum takeoff weight: 220000 kg. (Depending on version);
> 
> Cruising speed: 920 km \ .;
> 
> Maximum airspeed: 950 km \ h .;
> 
> Maximum range of flight: 10000 km .;
> 
> Maximum height of flight: 14500 m .;
> 
> Type of aircraft engine: turbofan;
> 
> Power plant: in the decision-making process.
> 
> Power: decision-making process
> *



Amazing concept if this materializes.

Looking forward to seeing this in Indian colours.

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## onebyone

*China's One Belt One Road is an attempt to physically and economically unify Europe and Asia and $890 billion in deals are a start*
June 30, 2016

There are 900 deals under way on China's One Belt One Road initiative. The deals are worth $890 billion, such as a gas pipeline from the Bay of Bengal through Myanmar to south-west China and a rail link between Beijing and Duisburg, a transport hub in Germany. China says it will invest a cumulative $4 trillion in OBOR countries, though it does not say by when. Its officials tetchily reject comparison with the Marshall Plan which, they say, was a means of rewarding America’s friends and excluding its enemies after the second world war. OBOR, they boast, is open to all. But, for what it is worth, the Marshall Plan amounted to $130 billion in current dollars.

President Xi’s chief foreign adviser, Yang Jiechi, has tied OBOR to China’s much-touted aims of becoming a “moderately well-off society” by 2020 and a “strong, prosperous” one by mid-century.

Mr Xi seems to see the new Silk Road as a way of extending China’s commercial tentacles and soft power. It also plays a role in his broader foreign-policy thinking. The president has endorsed his predecessors’ view that China faces a “period of strategic opportunity” up to 2020, meaning it can take advantage of a mostly benign security environment to achieve its aim of strengthening its global power without causing conflict. OBOR, officials believe, is a good way of packaging such a strategy. It also fits with Mr Xi’s “Chinese dream” of recreating a great past. It is not too much to say that he expects to be judged as a leader partly on how well he fulfils OBOR’s goals.

Third, OBOR matters because it is a challenge to the United States and its traditional way of thinking about world trade. In that view, there are two main trading blocs, the trans-Atlantic one and the trans-Pacific one, with Europe in the first, Asia in the second and America the focal point of each. Two proposed regional trade deals, the Trans-Pacific Partnership and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, embody this approach. But OBOR treats Asia and Europe as a single space, and China, not the United States, is its focal point.

In April a Chinese shipping company, Cosco, took a 67% stake in Greece’s second-largest port, Piraeus, from which Chinese firms are building a high-speed rail network linking the city to Hungary and eventually Germany. In July work is due to start on the third stage of a Chinese-designed nuclear reactor in Pakistan, where China recently announced it would finance a big new highway and put $2 billion into a coal mine in the Thar desert.





A financial structure to support it has also taken shape. In 2015 the central bank transferred $82 billion to three state-owned “policy banks” for OBOR projects. China’s sovereign wealth fund backed a new Silk Road Fund worth $40 billion and the government set up the AIIB with $100 billion of initial capital. The bank is not formally part of OBOR but the loans approved at its first general meeting—roads in Pakistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, for example—are all in Silk Road countries.

Now the rest of the Chinese state is mobilising. Two-thirds of China’s provinces have emphasised the importance of OBOR for their development. For example, Fuzhou, the capital of coastal Fujian province, has told its companies to “start businesses in the countries and regions along the maritime Silk Road”; it has set up a free-trade zone to attract firms from such countries in South-East Asia. Many big state-owned enterprises (SOEs) have an OBOR department, if only in the hope of getting money for their projects.

As a result, China’s foreign direct investment (FDI) is increasingly going along the Silk Road. In 2015, by official reckoning, its FDI in OBOR countries rose twice as fast as the increase in total FDI. Last year 44% of China’s new engineering projects were signed with OBOR countries. In the first five months of 2016, the share was 52%.

China’s approach to investment seems to be changing, too. Its OBOR contracts are now more likely to involve Chinese firms managing the infrastructure they build, rather than (as in the past) building them and simply handing them over. In theory, this should give China an interest in working for the long term in Silk Road countries.

There are reasons for thinking the new Silk Road will be completed. Most important, Asia needs new infrastructure—about $770 billion a year of it until 2020, according to the Asian Development Bank. This demand should eventually ease today’s worries about a lack of projects. Bert Hofman, the World Bank’s chief in Beijing, adds that individual countries will benefit more if they align their plans with one other and with China. It does not pay to plan and build separately.

Next, China needs OBOR. At home, its businesses are being squeezed by rising costs and growing demands that they pay more attention to protecting the environment. It makes sense for them to shift some manufacturing overseas—as long as the infrastructure is there.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/06/chinas-one-belt-one-road-is-attempt-to.html

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## ahojunk

*'One Belt, One Road' forum gains traction at the WEF*
CCTV.com
06-28-2016 16:27 BJT

Among many sub-forums being held in Tianjin, the discussion on the one belt one road initiative links Chinese entrepreneurs to trade ministers from other countries. The entrepreneurs say the private sector will be the backbone for Chinese firms' expansion abroad.

At the world economic forum in Tianjin, many Chinese firms say they value the opportunity to develop overseas, while they also caution on risks.

"The biggest challenge is risk. Only by locating a local partner could we avoid risks," said Li Huaizhen, China Minsheng Investment Group CEO.

As the global economy remains soft, experts say the one belt one road initiative could provide more opportunities for business and eventually, a new round of growth.

"For China, the most important market used to be advanced economies and east Asia. Both of them would see declining growth. Whether China could explore new markets as drivers for our global growth? One Belt One Road initiative is very meaningful for this matter," said Huang Yiping, deputy dean of National School of Dev't, Peking University.

Others say it is time to advance the connectivity among regional partners.

"Countries along the belt and road initiative would be hot destinations for energy infrastructure. We need a sophisticated system to support companies expanding overseas, especially for those private companies," said Gao Jifan, Trina Solar CEO.

Analysts say that in the long term, better connectivity would bring out an economic union, which would enable countries to coordinate their tariffs, currencies and financial policies, and find an effective model to deal with disputes.

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## TaiShang

*Maiden journey to Moscow*




A cargo train is ready to depart from Nanjing in Jiangsu Province on June 29, 2016. To arrive in Moscow in 15 days, the new direct service provides a means of getting goods from the Yangtze River Delta to Europe. After the maiden journey, the Nanjing-Moscow cargo train is scheduled to operate every two weeks, and weekly around the beginning of next year. [Photo/Xinhua]




A cargo train is ready to depart from Nanjing in Jiangsu Province on June 29, 2016. To arrive in Moscow in 15 days, the new direct service provides a means of getting goods from the Yangtze River Delta to Europe. After the maiden journey, the Nanjing-Moscow cargo train is scheduled to operate every two weeks, and weekly around the beginning of next year. [Photo/Xinhua]






A cargo train is ready to depart from Nanjing in Jiangsu Province on June 29, 2016. To arrive in Moscow in 15 days, the new direct service provides a means of getting goods from the Yangtze River Delta to Europe. After the maiden journey, the Nanjing-Moscow cargo train is scheduled to operate every two weeks, and weekly around the beginning of next year. [Photo/Xinhua]

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## TaiShang

onebyone said:


> *June 30, 2016*
> asia, china, economic impact, europe, finance, world
> 
> There are 900 deals under way on China's One Belt One Road initiative. The deals are worth $890 billion, such as a gas pipeline from the Bay of Bengal through Myanmar to south-west China and a rail link between Beijing and Duisburg, a transport hub in Germany. China says it will invest a cumulative $4 trillion in OBOR countries, though it does not say by when. Its officials tetchily reject comparison with the Marshall Plan which, they say, was a means of rewarding America’s friends and excluding its enemies after the second world war. OBOR, they boast, is open to all. But, for what it is worth, the Marshall Plan amounted to $130 billion in current dollars.
> 
> President Xi’s chief foreign adviser, Yang Jiechi, has tied OBOR to China’s much-touted aims of becoming a “moderately well-off society” by 2020 and a “strong, prosperous” one by mid-century.
> 
> Mr Xi seems to see the new Silk Road as a way of extending China’s commercial tentacles and soft power. It also plays a role in his broader foreign-policy thinking. The president has endorsed his predecessors’ view that China faces a “period of strategic opportunity” up to 2020, meaning it can take advantage of a mostly benign security environment to achieve its aim of strengthening its global power without causing conflict. OBOR, officials believe, is a good way of packaging such a strategy. It also fits with Mr Xi’s “Chinese dream” of recreating a great past. It is not too much to say that he expects to be judged as a leader partly on how well he fulfils OBOR’s goals.
> 
> Third, OBOR matters because it is a challenge to the United States and its traditional way of thinking about world trade. In that view, there are two main trading blocs, the trans-Atlantic one and the trans-Pacific one, with Europe in the first, Asia in the second and America the focal point of each. Two proposed regional trade deals, the Trans-Pacific Partnership and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, embody this approach. But OBOR treats Asia and Europe as a single space, and China, not the United States, is its focal point.
> 
> In April a Chinese shipping company, Cosco, took a 67% stake in Greece’s second-largest port, Piraeus, from which Chinese firms are building a high-speed rail network linking the city to Hungary and eventually Germany. In July work is due to start on the third stage of a Chinese-designed nuclear reactor in Pakistan, where China recently announced it would finance a big new highway and put $2 billion into a coal mine in the Thar desert.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A financial structure to support it has also taken shape. In 2015 the central bank transferred $82 billion to three state-owned “policy banks” for OBOR projects. China’s sovereign wealth fund backed a new Silk Road Fund worth $40 billion and the government set up the AIIB with $100 billion of initial capital. The bank is not formally part of OBOR but the loans approved at its first general meeting—roads in Pakistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, for example—are all in Silk Road countries.
> 
> Now the rest of the Chinese state is mobilising. Two-thirds of China’s provinces have emphasised the importance of OBOR for their development. For example, Fuzhou, the capital of coastal Fujian province, has told its companies to “start businesses in the countries and regions along the maritime Silk Road”; it has set up a free-trade zone to attract firms from such countries in South-East Asia. Many big state-owned enterprises (SOEs) have an OBOR department, if only in the hope of getting money for their projects.
> 
> As a result, China’s foreign direct investment (FDI) is increasingly going along the Silk Road. In 2015, by official reckoning, its FDI in OBOR countries rose twice as fast as the increase in total FDI. Last year 44% of China’s new engineering projects were signed with OBOR countries. In the first five months of 2016, the share was 52%.
> 
> China’s approach to investment seems to be changing, too. Its OBOR contracts are now more likely to involve Chinese firms managing the infrastructure they build, rather than (as in the past) building them and simply handing them over. In theory, this should give China an interest in working for the long term in Silk Road countries.
> 
> There are reasons for thinking the new Silk Road will be completed. Most important, Asia needs new infrastructure—about $770 billion a year of it until 2020, according to the Asian Development Bank. This demand should eventually ease today’s worries about a lack of projects. Bert Hofman, the World Bank’s chief in Beijing, adds that individual countries will benefit more if they align their plans with one other and with China. It does not pay to plan and build separately.
> 
> Next, China needs OBOR. At home, its businesses are being squeezed by rising costs and growing demands that they pay more attention to protecting the environment. It makes sense for them to shift some manufacturing overseas—as long as the infrastructure is there.
> 
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/06/chinas-one-belt-one-road-is-attempt-to.html



A nicely-written article, especially in terms of its analysis on the US and Chinese approach to development. As it seems, China has a unitary approach to Eurasian development, but the US, out of its geographic location, has a binary approach.

One thing to point out, also, is the paradigmatic difference between China and the US, which is one of securitization. China emphasizes economy in order to ensure security whereas the US emphasizes security to ensure economic growth.

Two paradaigms clashing. The US will likely move closer to the losing end.

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## ahojunk

_This Belt and Road Initiative is something the participating countries wanted as it brings them benefits.
When OBOR becomes a reality, Europe, Central Asia, East Asia and SEA will be one big economic market. 
Looking on the outer will be US. lol._

--------

JUNE 28, 2016
ONE BELT, ONE ROAD INITIATIVE SIGNALS CHINA’S ECONOMIC AND STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES

 MD STAFF

China’s “One Belt, One Road” (OBOR) concept for regional cooperation, which encompasses 65 countries along the land and maritime Silk Road routes, highlights China’s economic and strategic objectives as it faces slower growth and seeks to promote new growth drivers.

“This is beyond economics,” said Jin Liqun, President of the Beijing-based Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), in a session on the OBOR project at the Annual Meeting of the New Champions 2016. “This is more a strategic, geopolitical issue. It boils down to one single objective: *peace and prosperity for people*.”

“One of the main reasons ‘One Belt, One Road’ was created is to do something about [China’s] overcapacity domestically,” explained political scientist Ian Bremmer, President of Eurasia Group in the United States. OBOR has the backing of China’s leadership and is focused in large part on developing infrastructure in countries along the routes, which would bolster their commercial relations with China. “The infrastructure is badly needed,” Bremmer reckoned. “This fills a vacuum.”

The strategic dimension of OBOR, however, is important, he observed. “You are talking about China going out and creating supply chains that it will be eager to protect. It won’t be ‘not my problem’ anymore. The Chinese leadership will be much more in support of stability. The world absolutely welcomes this and needs it.” But initially, there may not be many investment-ready projects to give substance to OBOR, Bremmer cautioned. “The economics may be disappointing for a lot of people over the next decade.”

While it may be difficult to develop viable and profitable ventures, there are many such OBOR-aligned projects underway already, including ports, industrial plants and other infrastructure, asserted Benedikt Sobotka, Chief Executive Officer of Eurasian Resources Group in Luxembourg. “There is a strategy – and the Chinese government has been implementing it. It is absolutely impressive how systematically and efficiently this initiative is being implemented.” China, Sobotka remarked, is returning to the economic and commercial prominence it enjoyed in the days of the ancient Silk Road.

For Zhang Bingjun, Corporate Chairman of Tianjin TEDA Construction Group in China, OBOR is indeed a reality. His company, for example, has been collaborating with the Egyptian government on developing an industrial development zone near the Suez Canal. Many Chinese enterprises, Zhang noted, are now exploring opportunities in the international market. “The launching of this strategy is driven by the demand of Chinese companies,” he said. “*China’s leaders have proposed ‘One Belt, One Road’ after in-depth analysis of the Chinese and world economies and with a holistic understanding of the countries and the complementarity of the countries in the region*.”

China’s leaders have put forward a long-term vision, said Li Daokui, Dean of Schwarzman College at Tsinghua University in Beijing. By investing in infrastructure development in OBOR countries, China aims to promote the flow of capital, goods and commodities across the region. If the plan is successful over the coming decades, the countries in the region “will form a highly effective, efficient and socially developed region like the EU,” Li said. “The region will become highly converged economically rather than be in conflict.” He warned that China will need to be careful with its investments. “We need to have good environmental protection, or else local people will have regrets.”

China fully understands that responsibility, Jin stressed. The AIIB, another China-led initiative that parallels OBOR, will be involved to a large extent in funding projects in the region. “Any project that would be good for Asia, whether in or outside of Asia, would be good for the bank,” he said. “All projects which we can consider must be financially sustainable, environmentally friendly and socially acceptable.” Despite scepticism and suspicion among some critics of the AIIB and OBOR, China is aiming for mutual benefits and transparency, Jin insisted. “China is the proponent, initiator and promoter. But China itself cannot do all this. *China proposes but does not impose*. It is a response to the need. The need may not have been well expressed, but China has now expressed it.”

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## TaiShang

*Joint Russian-Chinese anti-terrorist exercises involving the National Guard of Russia (Rosgvardiya) and the Chinese People's Armed Police Force (PAP) kicked off in the Moscow Region on Sunday.*

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The large-scale special tactical exercise is being held on July 3-14 July in Russia's Moscow and Smolensk regions. The PAP Snow Leopard and Falcon commando units and Rosgvardiya's Vityaz unit are taking part in the training, a RIA Novosti correspondent reported from the site of events on Sunday.

"Neighborly relations between our countries are a strategic line between the Chinese and Russian sides. Today, we are beginning a new stage of cooperation. We are glad to have friendly relations with our partner and are ready to carry out common tasks," the chief of Rosgvardiya's general staff, Sergey Chenchik, said.





© REUTERS/ Kim Kyung-Hoon
Oops! Washington's Aggressive Posture Pushes Russia & China Closer Together

Chenchik's Chinese counterpart said that the two countries' interior forces are holding their third joint exercise and are working to improve mutual understanding and improving security in the scenario of a regional terrorist threat.

The units will use equipment such as mortar batteries, Mi-8 transport helicopters and armored vehicles.

The National Guard of Russia was formed in April and combined a range of internal security forces into one federal body tasked with securing borders, countering terrorism and organized crime, protecting public order, guarding state facilities and carrying out gun control. China's People's Armed Police is a law enforcement organization responsible for civilian policing.

sputniknews.com

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## Daniel808

> *"Neighborly relations between our countries are a strategic line between the Chinese and Russian sides. Today, we are beginning a new stage of cooperation. We are glad to have friendly relations with our partner and are ready to carry out common tasks,"* the chief of Rosgvardiya's general staff, Sergey Chenchik, said.

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## nadeemkhan110

*Two great superpowers I love CHINA AND RUSSIA
and I don't like USA *

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## grey boy 2

nadeemkhan110 said:


> *Two great superpowers I love CHINA AND RUSSIA
> and I don't like USA *



Thanks for your good will buddy.

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## pher

China should send a regiment of PLA there to jointly drill with Russia along the Nato border, get some orientation in that area and also show our strategic support to Russia. Afterall, Russia will have a navy excercise with China in SCS soon.

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## TaiShang

pher said:


> China should send a regiment of PLA there to jointly drill with Russia along the Nato border, get some orientation in that area and also show our strategic support to Russia. Afterall, Russia will have a navy excercise with China in SCS soon.



I will not consider China-Russia partnership as a mature one until/unless the two sides declare that attack on one of the partners will be considered an attack the other and responded accordingly.

Still awaiting that ultimate strategic partnership.

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## pher

TaiShang said:


> I will not consider China-Russia partnership as a mature one until/unless the two sides declare that attack on one of the partners will be considered an attack the other and responded accordingly.
> 
> Still awaiting that ultimate strategic partnership.


If you pay attention to our joint statement several days ago when Putin was in Beijing, actually we are pretty much in a military alliance now. maybe that is why turkey apologied to Russia, just 2 days after that statemment.

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## TaiShang

pher said:


> If you pay attention to our joint statement several days ago when Putin was in Beijing, actually we are pretty much in a military alliance now. maybe that is why turkey apologied to Russia, just 2 days after that statemment.



Yes, I liked the statement, but, a formal declaration would be a more powerful geopolitical statement which would make the West encroaching on both China and Russia think twice.

It is very interesting observation about Turkey. Turkey is not to be trusted even on a solid pragmatist basis; essentially, they are on the Western camp no matter what happens, that is just in the gene of right wing governments. Hopefully, Russia will be able to utilize this to bring the Syrian situation to an end.

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## pher

TaiShang said:


> Yes, I liked the statement, but, a formal declaration would be a more powerful geopolitical statement which would make the West encroaching on both China and Russia think twice.
> 
> It is very interesting observation about Turkey. Turkey is not to be trusted even on a solid pragmatist basis; essentially, they are on the Western camp no matter what happens, that is just in the gene of right wing governments. Hopefully, Russia will be able to utilize this to bring the Syrian situation to an end.


If we make a formal declaration now, which will offically announce the new global cold war begins. It is a bit rush but I believe it will arrive soon. Couldn't help to wait that great moment come.

The following is the ads appearing on Russian street, which remind us that Russia is ready.

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## Daniel808

Viet said:


> why only a regiment? do you think the russians will be impressed? the germans sent 3.5 millions for a visit some time ago. try harder. don´t forget to tag me if the russians stage any drills with you in the SC sea.
> 
> @Barmaley



They are (China and Russia) already Cooperate between each other Navies in East China Sea last month (8-9 June 2016)





Japan must be Pissed so much. Lol 


*Nice Cooperation between Chinese Navy - Russian Navy together in Diayou Island Waters - East China Sea, 8-9 June 2016.

*
So, Cooperation between China and Russia in South China Sea to protect SCS from *Pirates *is imminent !
Just Patience, dude* 





*
Together, We secure SCS from Pirates attack

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## Beidou2020

TaiShang said:


> I will not consider China-Russia partnership as a mature one until/unless the two sides declare that attack on one of the partners will be considered an attack the other and responded accordingly.
> 
> Still awaiting that ultimate strategic partnership.



This is the ultimate partnership.

But China is stuck with NFU nuclear policy. Russia don't have NFU policy.

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## ahojunk

pher said:


> Why didn't you tag Putin? He visited China on a yearly basis, maybe He can explain to you why coming to China so frequently.


.


Gotta give you a [Like]. You made me laugh so hard!

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## TaiShang

pher said:


> If we make a formal declaration now, which will offically announce the new global cold war begins. It is a bit rush but I believe it will arrive soon. Couldn't help to wait that great moment come.
> 
> The following is the ads appearing on Russian street, which remind us that Russia is ready.
> 
> View attachment 315511



Well said, and I agree. No need to further rally the West into an all-around confrontation.

A strong geopolitical but non-binding statement would be, especially right before/after the ITLOS ruling, a joint exercise in SCS.

@vostok , @senheiser

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## TaiShang

Commentary

*Russia’s “China Dreams” are Less of a Fantasy Than You Think*
*Alexander Gabuev*
*June 28, 2016*


*



*
In the wake of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to Beijing for a summit with Xi Jinping, the reaction in the Western media has been predictably [URL='http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-23/putin-s-trade-pivot-to-china-isn-t-all-smooth-as-silk-for-russia']skeptical. Snickering about the Russia-China axis has been a fixture in Washington and most European capitals for far too long. Western media and policymakers commonly react to the Kremlin’s “pivot to China” in the wake of the Ukraine crisis with derision.

The dominant view in these circles is that there is much more dividing China and Russia than uniting them. Moscow is afraid of its giant neighbor, which increasingly holds the dominant position in the relationship, according to the standard line of argument. With a gross domestic product that dwarfs that of Russia and an army growing progressively more capable and assertive, China seems to present a threat with which the Kremlin is ill-equipped to deal. Further, China depends far more on the West for markets and technology, and its trade with the European Union and the United States is nearly ten times larger than trade with neighboring Russia. In short, the argument goes, the partnership between Moscow and Beijing is a shallow one, so the West shouldn’t fret too much about it.

For understandable reasons, a sharp drop in bilateral trade in 2015 and the distinct lack of progress on high-profile investment and energy deals are cited as evidence that Russia’s “China dreams” were totally unrealistic from the outset. However, the situation is much more complex than this analytically complacent narrative suggests. Poking holes in Russian and Chinese propaganda may be worthwhile, but not if it lulls outside observers into missing the fact that Moscow is slowly but surely drifting into Beijing’s firm embrace.

*The Kremlin’s “pivot to China” is happening under challenging external conditions, a fact that should be taken into account when measuring its progress. *Russian-Chinese trade fell by nearly 30 percent in *2015 largely due to the *collapse* in oil prices.* But the *actual volume of Russian oil exports to China increased by the same amount*, according to Chinese customs data. For the first time in history, Moscow has become the largest or second-largest crude supplier to Beijing, which puts them basically on par with Saudi Arabia. Now that Russia and China are expanding the pipelines that connect their energy networks, this trend is likely to continue.

*Chinese financial institutions have not replaced the West as a source of capital for Russia, and Chinese commercial banks *have been reluctant* to ignore U.S./EU sanctions. However, the lending reticence of Chinese commercial banks has been compensated by the willingness of Beijing’s so-called political banks and export-import banks to lend to Russian companies, even those under sanctions.* With $18 billion in loans, *China was Russia’s *largest source of foreign capital* last year* if one discounts Russian money parked offshore in Cyprus.

Moscow and Beijing have also stepped up efforts to develop a parallel financial infrastructure that will bypass the United States and thus be immune to international sanctions. *Fearful of being *cut off* from SWIFT and other U.S.-led payment systems like Visa and MasterCard, the Russians are working on creating *alternatives*.* China’s approach to doing business with Iran prior to the nuclear deal provided a useful template in this regard. But this time, Beijing has a lot more to play with since the Russian leadership is hellbent on breaking free from their near-total dependence on the U.S.-dominated global financial system.

Another key element of change is Russia’s decision to reassess its policy on arms sales to China. Faded are Moscow’s old fears that Russian arms could be reverse-engineered and sold in third-party markets, or, worse, might one day be used against Russia in a border conflict. Just consider recent sales of highly advanced systems like the S-400 surface-to-air missile system and Su-35 fighter jets. These deals are likely to alter the strategic balance vis-a-vis Taiwan, the East China Sea, and the South China Sea. If the Chinese People’s Liberation Army ultimately decides to deploy the S-400 across the Taiwan Strait, it would control the skies over the island, making its defense far more challenging and costly.

*An asymmetrical Russian-Chinese interdependence is emerging.* China is reaping the lion’s share of the benefits and Russia acting like the needier, more pliable partner. However, the partnership is not driven by mutual trust or by a desire to undermine the West. It is true that both Moscow and Beijing are concerned about Washington’s plans, such as the deployment of American THAAD anti-ballistic missile systems in South Korea, as well as presumed American democracy promotion campaigns, particularly on the Internet. Both topics are reflected in two statements Putin and Xi signed after the summit. But the growing partnership is spurred not only by growing anti-Americanism, but more importantly by Russia’s quest for external economic support to keep the regime afloat in the wake of Western sanctions. Chinese leaders are carefully camouflaging the growing lopsidedness of the relationship through skillful shows of respect. Given the Kremlin’s lack of viable alternatives to China’s embrace, Beijing is now poised to acquire the kind of assets it needs to energize its quest for global influence. The West needs to take this fact into account as it seeks to dissuade Asian allies like Japan from developing their own ties with Moscow.


_*Alexander Gabuev is a senior associate and the chair of the Russia in the Asia-Pacific program at the Carnegie Moscow Center. Prior to joining Carnegie, Gabuev was a member of the editorial board of Kommersant publishing house and served as deputy editor in chief of *_*Kommersant-Vlast*_*, one of Russia’s most influential newsweeklies.*_[/URL]

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> Yes, I liked the statement, but, a formal declaration would be a more powerful geopolitical statement which would make the West encroaching on both China and Russia think twice.
> 
> It is very interesting observation about Turkey. Turkey is not to be trusted even on a solid pragmatist basis; essentially, they are on the Western camp no matter what happens, that is just in the gene of right wing governments. Hopefully, Russia will be able to utilize this to bring the Syrian situation to an end.



I wouldn't rush the military alliance declaration.

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## beijingwalker

*As US Controlled NATO Meets: U.S. War on Russia and China Will Mean Ruin for the Whole of Europe and Asia*
by JOHN V. WALSH

What we shouldn’t do now is inflame the situation further through sabre-rattling and warmongering. ..

Whoever believes that a symbolic tank parade on the alliance’s eastern border will bring security is mistaken. ..

We are well-advised to not create pretexts to renew an old confrontation. ..

(It would be) fatal to search only for military solutions and a policy of deterrence.

— German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier,commenting on NATO’s recent military exercises in Poland and the Baltics.

Frank-Walter Steinmeier’s cry of distress is that of a man watching a tidal wave of destruction gathering force, similar to ones that have engulfed his country twice in the 20th Century. His dread is not to be dismissed since it comes from a man who is in a position to know what the U.S. is up to. His words reflect the fears of ever more people across all of Eurasia from France in the West to Japan in the East.

Under the euphemism of “containment,” the U.S. is relentlessly advancing its new Cold War on Russia and China. Its instrument in the West is NATO and in the East, Japan and whatever other worthies can be sharked up.

It is a Cold War that grows increasingly hotter, with proxy wars now raging in Eastern Ukraine and Syria and with confrontations in the South China Sea. There is an ever growing likelihood that these points of tension will flare up into an all out military conflict.

In the West this conflict will begin in Eastern Europe and Russia, but it will not stop there. All the European NATO countries would be on the front lines. In the East the conflict will take place in the Western Pacific in the region of China’s coast and in the peninsulas and island countries in the region, including Japan, the Philippines and Indochina.

In each case the US will be an ocean away, “leading from behind,” as Barack Obama would put it, or engaged in “offshore balancing” as some foreign policy “experts” might term it.

No matter the “victors,” all of Eurasia, from France in the West to Japan in the East would be devastated. No matter the outcome, the US could escape unscathed and “win” in this sense. And all Eurasian nations would lose. It would be World War II redux.

One can get a sense of what this means in the case of economic conflict by looking at the minimal economic warfare now being waged on Russia in the form of sanctions. Those sanctions are hurting both Russia and the rest of Europe. The US is untouched.

The same is also true for military conflict. Want to know what it would look like? Look at Eastern Ukraine. All of Eurasia could come to resemble that sorry nation in the event of a military conflict pitting the US and its allies against Russia and China. Eurasia, be forewarned!

The goal of the US foreign policy elite would clearly be for Russia and China to “lose,” but even if they “won,” they would be brought low, leaving the US as the world’s greatest economic and military power as it was in 1945.

Europe is beginning to awaken to this. We have Steinmeier’s plea above. But it is not only Germany that is worried. The French Senate wants an end to the sanctions imposed on Russia. Business people in many Western European countries, most notably in Germany and Italy, European farmers who export to Russia and tourist entrepreneurs like those in Turkey and Bulgaria also want an end to sanctions and military exercises. Parties of the Right want an end to domination by NATO and Brussels, both controlled by the US. The Brexit is just one rumbling of such discontent.

All these nations are growing increasingly aware of the fate that awaits them if overt conflict erupts with Russia. The people of Germany want none of it. Likewise the people of Japan are stirring against the US effort to goad Japan into fighting China. All remember the devastation of WWII.

Let’s recall the casualty figures, i.e., deaths, among the principal combatants of WWII:

Soviet Union- 27,000,000 (14% of the population);

China- 17,000,000 (3.5%);

Germany- 7,000,000 (8.5%);

Japan- 2,800,000 (4%).

By comparison, for the US, safely far offshore, the number was 419,000 (0.32%)!

And for a few other countries which “got in the way” of the major adversaries:

Yugoslavia- 1,500,000 (9%)

Poland- 6,000,000 (17%)

French Indochina- 1,600,000 (6.11%)

Philippines- 527,000 (3.29%)

One wonders what the leaders of Poland or the Philippines or some elements in Vietnam are thinking when they take a belligerent attitude to Russia or China in order to please the US.

The problem with this US strategy is that it could easily spill over into a nuclear conflict as nearly happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Then the US too would be reduced to radioactive rubble. The bet of the Western policy elite must be that Russia and China would not respond to a conventional war with a nuclear response.

However Vladimir Putin has made it clear that in any war with the West, the US will feel the impact at once. The neocons and the rest of the US foreign policy elite must be betting that Putin can do nothing, because he would not use nuclear weapons. So the destruction will be confined to Europe and Asia.

But that assumption is a dangerous one. Nuclear weapons might not be used. Russia and China might respond with a conventional weapons attack on US cities. In WWII Germany was able to wreak considerable devastation using conventional bombs on England delivered by airplanes and V2 rockets. Similarly the US was able to do enormous damage to Germany and to Japan with conventional weapons, especially fire bombing as in Tokyo and Dresden. Today technology has advanced greatly, and US cities have nuclear power plants nearby.

What is the likely outcome of a conventional war waged against US cities? Do we wish to find out? And once it begins where is the firewall against an all-out nuclear exchange? Where are the neocons and the rest of the US foreign policy elite taking us? Certainly the damage will begin with Eurasia, but Americans would do well to worry that great swarms of chickens might come home to roost in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. This is not the 20th Century.

For some the scenarios above might seem unduly alarmist. They might doubt that the US elite would be capable of consciously unleashing such a vast bloodletting. For those, it is useful to recall the words of President Harry S. Truman, who said in 1941, when he was still a Senator and before the US had entered WWII:

“If we see that Germany is winning the war, we ought to help Russia; and if that Russia is winning, we ought to help Germany, and in that way let them kill as many as possible. . . .”

Is that not what happened?

People of Eurasia, beware.

_A version of this article originally appeared on RT __here_.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/07...l-mean-ruin-for-the-whole-of-europe-and-asia/

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## beijingwalker

beijingwalker said:


> One wonders what the leaders of Poland or the Philippines or some elements in Vietnam are thinking when they take a belligerent attitude to Russia or China in order to please the US.


It's a Russian RT report. it's clearly shown that Russia is not happy with those countries.

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## sword1947

US and Nato just wanna do that, so China and Russia will play with them

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## TaiShang

A nice infographics.

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## ahojunk

_Learning another language exposes one to another culture._

--------
*Multilingual education gains rising popularity in the Middle Kingdom due to the One Belt, One Road initiative*
By Chen Ximeng | Source:Global Times | Published: 2016-7-10 5:03:03





_A teacher teaching a Spanish class in the Spanish immersion program at Gucheng High School in Shijingshan district. Photo: Li Hao/GT_​
Wang Xinyue, an 18-year-old graduate from Gucheng High School in Shijingshan district, had a different experience than most high school graduates who took gaokao (national college entrance examinations) last month. Instead of English, he sat for a Spanish exam. 

Wang studied Spanish language for three years in the Spanish immersion classes at his school. According to the regulations of the Ministry of Education for foreign language exams in gaokao, students can choose from six languages - English, Japanese, German, French, Russian and Spanish. 

"We have one advantage compared to English test-takers. Some universities will put down the score threshold for students like me through independent recruitment." 

After some research, Wang targeted four untraditional foreign languages from Xi'an International Studies University in Shaanxi Province over English - French, Arabic, Russian and Italian. 

In recent years, an increasing number of students are majoring in untraditional foreign languages, and starting learning at a younger age.

Wu Wei, the director of the admission division of Beijing International Studies University (BISU), told Metropolitan that this year, the biggest change on enrollment is opening four new untraditional foreign language programs of study - *Polish, Hungarian, Czech and Latvian* - with 80 more spots for admission in Beijing. 

As the international communication between China and other countries is broadened and becoming more in-depth, more Chinese companies expand overseas, and under the influence of the One Belt, One Road initiative, the demand for talented people that have mastered untraditional foreign languages has grown extensively. 

*Rising popularity
*
The enrollment for untraditional foreign languages began on July 7 in Beijing. 

On that evening, the first admission letter from Beijing Language and Culture University (BLCU) was sent to Zhou Run, a graduate from Beijing No.161 High School. Zhou, scored 646, higher than all the applicants of BLCU, and 63 points higher than the first-tier cutoff line in Beijing. He was admitted into a French major, the Beijing Daily reported on July 7. 

Zhou told the Beijing Daily that his dream is to be a French interpreter. 

"French is widely used now, so I hope to use French to communicate with more people," Zhou said in the report. 

Wu, who is now very busy with admission work, said that compared with other majors, the admission scores for untraditional foreign language are very high. 

"Statistics from this year show the scores of applicants are higher than previous years. There are a large number of candidates applying for the four newly-launched languages," said Wu.

Wu said in recent years, more students have a great passion for learning untraditional foreign languages, therefore the competition becomes very fierce. One of the reasons he believes is that most young people born after 1995 are influenced by a more diverse culture. 

"More importantly, compared with English which is widely taught in China, there are not many schools teaching untraditoinal foreign languages, especially for less-known languages such as Lao, Polish and Serbian. Yet the demand is great and the job prospects are very good, increasing its popularity."

Wu said the hot majors are French, Spanish and German; among which French was the hottest with an application and enrollment ratio of 32:1 last year. 

He further explained that French and Spanish have always been popular, mainly because many countries use the two languages, and graduates have more career choices. As Chinese resource-based companies, such as oil companies, expand their businesses in South America, the graduates in Spanish language courses are greatly coveted. There are also "cold" languages becoming popular as the connections between China and these countries become closer. 

For example, this year's newly-launched languages are to cater to the needs for Central and Eastern European languages, he added.





_More Chinese students learn non-traditional foreign languages for better job prospects, a higher possibility of being enrolled in a university in a non-traditional foreign language country and learning about new cultures. Photo: IC_​
*Lowering ages, high starting point
*
Besides university students, younger students are taking on early untraditional foreign language studies. 

Wang was one of the 20 members in the Spanish immersion class in Gucheng High School. All the members in his class were selected among junior high school students in Beijing. 

Wang said in their class, Spanish is the first foreign language taught, with English being the second. Every week, they have nine Spanish classes. They also have a lot of Spanish-related extracurricular activities.

Wang thinks by starting early in high school, he has a wider choice of universities to become more multilingual. While waiting on the results of Chinese universities, he is also applying for Spanish universities.

Like Gucheng, several other schools in Beijing also have launched early immersion or special classes for Japanese, French and Korean languages, aimed at high school students. Beijing No.21 Middle School, as one of the earliest schools to launch classes of this kind in Beijing, has offered French since 2004 and has seen over 400 graduates, according to the Modern Education News in 2015. 

Some language training organizations also open up untraditional foreign language classes to cater to growing needs of younger students. 

According to the statistics of Hongyu School, a language training organization in Beijing, students taking untraditional foreign language classes are aged from five to 10, the Beijing-based newspaper The Mirror reported in 2013. 

"For the past two years, middle and primary school students have a growing passion for learning untraditional foreign languages like Italian, German, French and Spanish," said Principal Qu Hongtao, quoted by The Mirror.

An anonymous parent told the paper that mastering English is not that advantageous in the job market. If children can lay down a strong base of a second language at a young age, they will have an edge in spoken ability and culture for landing a job both in China and abroad. 

Some parents did so to give their children an advantage in studying overseas. Since 2012, going to school in countries with untraditional foreign languages is becoming more popular. 

According to the principal of another training school, who was quoted by the report, students going overseas to study in an untraditional foreign language country have a great edge in language, compared with those going to English-speaking countries. If one is proficient in an untraditional foreign language, he or she will be more likely to be enrolled in a top university in that country. 

Last year, to cater to the growing need of learning an untraditional foreign language at a younger age, BISU piloted a seven-year, run-through cultivation program for four languages - Polish, Hungarian, Czech and Latvian. The four classes were filled with 80 students selected from junior high schools in Beijing. The program received around 1,280 applications. 

"We call them 'little' university students. During the seven years, the first two years will be spent in BISU to learn English, general-knowledge courses, and high school basic courses; one year in a cooperative university in the target country, one year back to BISU, and the last three years again in the target country," said Wu.

He said that in this way, students can put down the burden of preparing for gaokao. 

After this year's pilot, they decided to add another four: *Romanian, Lithuanian, Estonian and Serbian* to cater to the growing needs for people trained in Central and Eastern European languages. 

*The driving force of One Belt, One Road initiative
*
With the execution of One Belt, One Road initiative, there is a growing demand for untraditional foreign language experts. 

Wu said that one of the major reasons for launching eight Central and Eastern European languages is that they are major countries in One Belt, One Road initiative. 

"The relation between China and these countries are continuously strengthened with increasing communication, especially in economic cooperation, which will greatly increase the need for talented language persons." 

He recalled that the officials from some embassies of these countries in China have expressed to him how badly they want talented language persons. The ambassador from the Embassy of Poland even told him if they are lack in teaching resources, they can help find Polish professors to support the program. 

Jason Wang, a 28-year-old graduate of Thai language at Beijing Foreign Studies University (BFSU) in 2011, now works as the product manager of a well-known Internet company in Beijing. He thinks that learning Thai gives good prospects for career, especially since China has launched the One Belt, One Road initiative. Thailand is one of the countries that are involved in this initiative, which will further improve the need for Thai talented persons.

"Besides, China's Internet industry has developed at a high pace, so many put their eyes on an overseas market, which creates a great need for people like me," said Jason Wang.

Lan Jianhua, vice director of the employment division of BFSU, said statistics show that the need for untraditional foreign language is very high in target countries under the One Belt, One Road Initiative. For example, this year, they could clearly feel the need for Serbian language increasing. 

According to a China Youth Daily report in 2015, the number of official languages covering the countries in the initiative is over 40. However, there are only 20 languages for admissions in universities in China between 2010 and 2013. Besides, the number of students able to be admitted in untraditional foreign language programs belonging to countries involved in the One Belt, One Road initiative is limited, said the report. 

"To cater to the growing needs, the school is considering opening up new languages, adding more admissions for the languages and cutting down on others," said Lan. "Our school plans to build a national-level untraditional foreign language development strategic base to cultivate more multi-talent language graduates."

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## ahojunk

_Wow! They are also preventing the trafficking of endangered wildlife. Very good move._

-------
*Officials receive CITES enforcement training relevant to “One belt, One Road Initiative”*
Monday, July 11, 2016 at 12:31 





_Xiao Yu, a Programme Officer with TRAFFIC, presented recent market monitoring results © TRAFFIC_
*
Tianshui, Gansu, China, July 2016*—Around 50 enforcement officials, including representatives from the Forest Police, Customs, State Administration of Industry and Commerce and Forestry Department in Ningxia, Qinghai, Gansu and Yunnan provinces attended a training event on the Convention on international trade in endangered species of wild fauna and flora (CITES) last month. 

The event was organized by the Shanxi Branch of China’s CITES Management Authority (CITES MA) in Gansu province in co-operation with TRAFFIC and focused on the influence of China on wildlife trade and combating wildlife crimes.

Ningxia, Qinghai and Gansu all lie along the new “Silk Road Economic Belt”, while Yunnan is an important hub in the new “Maritime Silk Road”. Together they form the “One Belt, One Road initiative”, which aims to boost connectivity and co-operation between China and the rest of Eurasia. 

The economic development will bring more legal wildlife trade, with the likelihood of an increase in wildlife smuggling and illegal trade too, presenting new enforcement challenges.

Mr Zhang Shanning, Director of Enforcement and Training with China’s CITES MA spoke about some of the latest developments with international trade in threatened species and the high-level political attention the issue was currently receiving in the country. 

Xiao Yu, a Programme Officer with TRAFFIC presented recent market monitoring findings, after which Ms Jia Yongyi, Director of the Shanxi Branch of China’s CITES MA commented: 

“All enforcement departments need to take TRAFFIC’s market survey results seriously: their reliable information can help the government with implementation of CITES regulations in China.”

”The One Belt, One Road initiative is a crucial part of the National Strategy, which will promote international trade in many fields,” said Zhou Fei, Head of TRAFFIC’s China office.

“TRAFFIC, as an international organization, needs to investigate and study the influence of the trade in wildlife as this Strategy unfolds, to ensure there is sustainable development and avoid any negative impacts on our natural resources.” 

Shanxi Institute of Zoology is currently carrying out research into the impacts of the One Belt, One Road initiative, the results of which will be released at the end of 2016. 

WWF UK is thanked for their generous support for TRAFFIC’s work facilitating China’s enforcement departments in implementation of CITES regulations.

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## onebyone

Tim Daiss , 

CONTRIBUTOR

Geopolitical analyst and journalist based in Southeast Asia. 

Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.


*TWEET THIS*

Russia and China are discussing joint cooperation in outer-space exploration, including missions to the Moon and even Mars





JIUQUAN, CHINA – SEPTEMBER 29: A Long March 2F rocket carrying the country’s first space laboratory module Tiangong-1 lifts off from the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center on September 29, 2011 in Jiuquan, Gansu province of China. The unmanned Tiangong-1 stayed in orbit for two years and docked with China’s Shenzhou-8, -9 and -10 spacecraft with the eventual goal of establishing a manned Chinese space station around 2020. (Photo by Lintao Zhang/Getty Images)

Russia and China are discussing joint cooperation in outer-space exploration, including missions to the Moon and even Mars , according to a statement by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on Wednesday.

“Yesterday, we (Rogozin and Vice-Premier of China’s State Council Wang Yang) worked for three and a half hours, discussing cooperation in the nuclear sphere and cooperation in the issues of interaction between our space agencies where there are such large projects as the deliveries of rocket engines, and cooperation in navigation systems,” the Russian vice-premier said.

He made his remarks during a talk with the heads of Russian regions and Chinese provinces and the managers of companies from both countries. The expo is an annual industrial exhibition held since 2014 within the framework of the Harbin Trade Fair.


“We’re developing an understanding for the rocket and space industry for possible interaction in such profound and technologically complex projects as the future exploration of the Moon, Mars and piloted cosmonautics,” he said.

Rogozin added that both countries have the potential to implement such impressive projects as trust exists both at the political level and at the level of specialists solving these issues.

Rogozin’s statement’s come less than a month after Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to Beijing. During that meeting the two sides inked a pact setting out the legal framework for protecting their rights to sensitive space technologies in joint projects like launch vehicles and rocket engines.
China’s lunar program needs Russia




Chinese astronauts (front L-R) Wang Yaping, mission commander Nie Haisheng and Zhang Xiaoguang gesture as they prepare to board the Shenzhou-10 spacecraft in Jiuquan, northwest China’s Gansu on June 11, 2013. China launch its longest-ever manned space mission on June 11, with its second woman astronaut among the crew, as it steps up its ambitious space programme, a symbol of the country’s growing power. (Photo AFP/AFP/Getty Images)

Russia’s Ambassador to China, Andrey Denisov, said the two sides have been discussing the prospects of cooperation with space stations and making long-distance space flights. He added that “this cooperation is of purely peaceful, civilian nature and will finally benefit the entire humankind rather than only the participating states.”

China, for its part, has already ramped-up its pace program, conducting 19 successful space flights last year, with 20 planned for 2016. It also plans to launch to launch its Tiangong 2 space laboratory and a manned spacecraft Shenzhou 11, among other military and commercial orbital missions.


Earlier this month, according to state-run _Xinhua _news agency, China shipped the Tiangong 2 to the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in the Gobi desert, where it will be launched into space in mid-September. The module was transported by rail from Beijing.

The Tiangong 1 was launched in 2011 and hosted two crews of taikonauts (Chinese astronauts) in 2012 and 2013. China releases less information about its space activities than other nations, while plans for Tiangong 1 remain unclear. 
Rogozin said on July 6 that China might buy rocket engines for its space program from Russia, adding that China was interested “in a number of services and products, which will be very important for the development of the Chinese space program, in particular, for its lunar program.” He said that China’s lunar program is practically impossible without “certain supplies of equipment from Russia.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timdais...uss-mission-to-moon-even-mars/2/#3908754256bc

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## maximuswarrior

About time. China and Russia need to start cooperating as a counterweight. The world will benefit from their cooperation.

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## Jlaw

maximuswarrior said:


> About time. China and Russia need to start cooperating as a counterweight. The world will benefit from their cooperation.


The problem is that Russians want cooperation now but China is on the verge of able to do these on their own. The Russians offer is 10 years too late.

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## maximuswarrior

Jlaw said:


> The problem is that Russians want cooperation now but China is on the verge of able to do these on their own. The Russians offer is 10 years too late.



LOL That is the thing with Russia. They don't offer you something until you already have it, but the same could be said for others.

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## Jlaw

maximuswarrior said:


> LOL That is the thing with Russia. They don't offer you something until you already have it, but the same could be said for others too.


To me it seems the Russians need China more than China need them.

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## maximuswarrior

Jlaw said:


> To me it seems the Russians need China more than China need them.



I would be inclined to say so too.

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## greenwood

Jlaw said:


> To me it seems the Russians need China more than China need them.



It is equal relationship. This is the reason in 2016 China and Russia upgrade to highest level cooperation relationship, but have not declared ally. In any ally, there should be a leader. So far both nations don't consider each other as leader.

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## Jlaw

maximuswarrior said:


> I would be inclined to say so too.


I'm more concern with time delay for joint projects. You know how fast China work.

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## anon45

greenwood said:


> It is equal relationship. This is the reason in 2016 China and Russia upgrade to highest level cooperation relationship, but have not declared ally.* In any ally, there should be a leader. *So far both nations don't consider each other as leader.



Definitely not true, counter-example would be WW1, WW2.

Also don't believe there was a clear leader of international forces during the Boxer rebellion (though the US was a lesser participant).

Napoleonic wars as well.

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## greenwood

anon45 said:


> Definitely not true, counter-example would be WW1, WW2.
> 
> Also don't believe there was a clear leader of international forces during the Boxer rebellion (though the US was a lesser participant).
> 
> Napoleonic wars as well.



My fault, I should have told the casual ally and solid ally. In the casual ally (such as US USSR in WWII ), they don't need leader, as long as they have strong common interests or same enemy / target, they will bind ally. When the target lose threat, the ally will be dismissed quickly.

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## Beast

maximuswarrior said:


> I would be inclined to say so too.


Why? What can Russian offer for China? We are going to commission the largest radio telescope and our heavy rocket going to debut by end of this year. I don't think there is anything Russian can do more than us. Even the lunar moon trip of retrieving soil is going to happen in 2018.

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## oprih

It's lovely to see the strengthening cooperation between these two Great and Responsible Powers.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Jlaw said:


> The problem is that Russians want cooperation now but China is on the verge of able to do these on their own. The Russians offer is 10 years too late.



No one is interested on you when you was still weak...simple as that, but when're strong you will have better bargaining position.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> No one is interested on you when you was still weak...simple as that, but when're strong you will have better bargaining position.



Well said. That is the heart of the matter in international relations.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> Why? What can Russian offer for China? We are going to commission the largest radio telescope and our heavy rocket going to debut by end of this year. I don't think there is anything Russian can do more than us. Even the lunar moon trip of retrieving soil is going to happen in 2018.



Well Russia will have come with interesting cooperation offer since China will cover a great percentage cost of this mission unless they will be shoulder half of the cost. There is some space field that they're still more advance than China, if that will benefit to this mission then it's worth to have cooperation otherwise it's better off that we go alone.

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Well Russia will have come with interesting cooperation offer since China will cover a great percentage cost of this mission unless they will be shoulder half of the cost. There is some space field that they're still more advance than China, if that will benefit to this mission then it's worth to have cooperation otherwise it's better off that we go alone.


Seriously, anything from Forbes about China you shall take it with a pinch of salt. I doubt China needs anything from Russia. There is no indication China foot most of the bill and even that is truth. That doesn't mean China needs something that we don't have. I doubt China is at disadvantage in this deal.


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## Beidou2020

Beast said:


> Why? What can Russian offer for China? We are going to commission the largest radio telescope and our heavy rocket going to debut by end of this year. I don't think there is anything Russian can do more than us. Even the lunar moon trip of retrieving soil is going to happen in 2018.



Russia is still ahead in rocket engines.

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## Beast

Beidou2020 said:


> Russia is still ahead in rocket engines.


Not really. There was a BS article from Russia claiming China wanted to buy their R-180 rocket but mind you, there was a powerful and similar YF-660 being build. We do not have much info but I am sure its exists since Long March-9 rocket project is almost officially announced. Russia current new gen of rocket angara is not much far away from China Long March-5. Seriously, I do not know what can Russia really offer?


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## Hamartia Antidote

Beast said:


> Seriously, anything from Forbes about China you shall take it with a pinch of salt. l.



They were already on the way down even before being bought by a Chinese company. Now they are simply a front company for Chinese media.


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## Beast

Hamartia Antidote said:


> They were already on the way down even before being bought by a Chinese company. Now they are simply a front company for Chinese media.


As if they will write anything on neutral. Read the article yourself...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28380634

_'Steve Forbes will remain as chairman and editor-in-chief'_


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## Hamartia Antidote

Beast said:


> As if they will write anything on neutral. Read the article yourself...
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28380634
> 
> _'Steve Forbes will remain as chairman and editor-in-chief'_



Yes, that Space Cadet sold his father's (Malcolm Forbes) successful company because after he died he couldn't run it himself...or more like he knew how to run it into the ground.


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## Genesis

anon45 said:


> Definitely not true, counter-example would be WW1, WW2.
> 
> Also don't believe there was a clear leader of international forces during the Boxer rebellion (though the US was a lesser participant).
> 
> Napoleonic wars as well.



You know why Philippe Petain was made Vichy France leader in WW2? You know who the supreme commander of all allied forces are in WW2? You know who the leader on the other side of the allies is I'm sure.

So very true.

The Boxer rebellion is a very weird war, Qing declared war on 11 countries I think. Yet the war isn't fought in Europe but in China. There didn't need to be a leader, though I think if I remember correctly, the Germans were nominally in charge.

Napoleonic, Napoleon, the iron duke was nominally the leader. He was given the marshal baton of all the nations.

Think you need to read history more carefully.


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## anon45

Genesis said:


> You know why Philippe Petain was made Vichy France leader in WW2? You know who the supreme commander of all allied forces are in WW2? You know who the leader on the other side of the allies is I'm sure.



Are you saying the Soviet Union considered the US the 'leader' of the allies? China considered the US the leader of the allies? It was an alliance of convenience, but there was never a clear decided leader except when it came to certain operations. Soviet forces were never under the command of Eisenhower, neither were Chinese.




Genesis said:


> Napoleonic, Napoleon, the iron duke was nominally the leader. He was given the marshal baton of all the nations.
> 
> Think you need to read history more carefully.



Talking about the alliance against Napoleon.


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## Genesis

anon45 said:


> Are you saying the Soviet Union considered the US the 'leader' of the allies? China considered the US the leader of the allies? It was an alliance of convenience, but there was never a clear decided leader except when it came to certain operations. Soviet forces were never under the command of Eisenhower, neither were Chinese.



Believe me, Chang may not like it, and he may not always follow it, but FDR had some major influence there. I mean the whole Burma campaign, is essentially the Americans pressuring Chiang to do it.

If nothing else, his commander of China theatre is an American designation that he accepted. 

As to the Soviets, that's a different thing. It's not really an alliance in the first place, it's more like Hitler pissed off both and both are attack. Like if a third party punches you and me in the mouth and we both fight him, doesn't make us allies, just means we are fighting him at the same time.



> Talking about the alliance against Napoleon.


I realize that, hence Iron Duke, you know who he is right. If you read more on him, you would know, he was the supreme commander of all allied forces.


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## anon45

Genesis said:


> I realize that, hence Iron Duke, you know who he is right. If you read more on him, you would know, he was the supreme commander of all allied forces.



Thought you were referring to Napoleon as the iron duke and marshal baton of all nations, thought that was weird... ok so miscommunication.

Huh apparently Wellesley was given the rank of Field Marshal by all the allied nations, TIL.


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## Genesis

anon45 said:


> Thought you were referring to Napoleon as the iron duke and marshal baton of all nations, thought that was weird... ok so miscommunication.
> 
> Huh apparently Wellesley was given the rank of Field Marshal by all the allied nations, TIL.


I can see how it be confusing, but there was only one iron duke during that period.

Anyways, as an American, you guys had it easy, even during your weak periods, you were still head and shoulders above everyone else in the Americas. There was also no historical baggage. at least not much.

The new ruling on the seas for China isn't upheld, because that wasn't the core of the issue. The issue is the balance of power has been disturbed and until it is restore, there can be no solution.

During Qing's Asia, there was more or less peace and stability, because the balance of power was stable. During the 90s and 2000s, it was stable, because the balance of power was more or less stable. However, come 2016, we are almost 3 times the economy of the next challenger, Japan, and our military is growing leaps and bounds.

The balance of power is disturbed.

I mention this because the leader of an alliance thing, you guys today are so powerful, that no one can seriously look at you and not see you as the big brother.

You are like the NBA player that plays on the street, even if he wants to be just part of the game and relax, people are going to pass him the ball.

This is why I don't really go to too much trouble over American interpretation of Asian events, not enough experience in this type of situation.


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## jerry_tan

http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/did-russia-just-ask-china-to-buzz-off-on-the-south-china-sea/

*Did Russia Just Ask China to ‘Buzz Off’ on the South China Sea?*
The Russian MFA statement after the PCA ruling was not as soft on China as usual.

By Anton Tsvetov
July 16, 2016
2.9k
4
3
*2.9k* Shares

No appeasement. No accommodation. On July 12, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague smashed China’s expansive nine-dash line claim in the South China Sea, as well as its conduct with regards to the environment and Philippine fishermen, as inconsistent with the Constitution of the Oceans – the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). Beijing is now in damage control mode – disregarding the court’s jurisdiction, denying any compliance with the merits and making a list of international reactions.

On the long list of countries Beijing claims to have support from, Russia is the largest and most influential state. Moscow’s reaction to the court ruling was somewhat delayed and was voiced on July 14. It also came in the form of an answer to a question posed by a Chinese journalist at the weekly press briefing by the foreign ministry’s spokeswoman Maria Zakharova – a clear sign that Russia wishes to distance itself from the disputes and does not regard the South China Sea as a first tier issue.

As usual with the Russian stance, Moscow expressed support for a diplomatic solution to the dispute by the parties involved, called for compliance with international law, including UNCLOS and the 2002 Declaration of Conduct, and an early conclusion of a binding Code of Conduct.

*Enjoying this article?* Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
But there was something else. The Russian MFA spokeswoman explicitly said that Russia does not take sides in the conflict. Though making the case against extra-regional involvement, she did not mention non-claimants that are using the situation for their own geopolitical considerations, the usual euphemism for the United States. Finally, she mentioned UNCLOS not once but twice, supporting the Convention’s role in upholding rule of law in the oceans and stressing the universal nature of the document.

These minor additions made the fresh Russian statement go a little bit beyond the baseline. Emotionally, it looked like a snap of the teeth toward extensive pressure. And pressure there has been. There is no doubt that Beijing has utilized bilateral channels to push Russia toward more support. Just one day before the ruling was announced, the deputy chief of China’s diplomatic mission to Russia visited the Foreign Ministry to discuss “current bilateral and global issues.” Zakharova said that Russia will not be drawn into the disputes and it is rather clear who has been most industrious in trying to do so.

Previously, China has been very liberal with Russia’s position, bending the non-internationalization clause as proof of Russian support. If we take the clause at face value, then it makes perfect sense, as Moscow has been historically against any interventions by extra-regional states into its own neighborhood and other neighborhoods by extension. However, when put into context it sounds too much in harmony with China’s opposition to the internationalization of the South China Sea disputes, by which Beijing means mainly two things – U.S. involvement and international arbitration.

Beijing, as it has done previously, will still count Russia on the list of states that support China in its defiance of any arbitration and this week’s PCA ruling in particular. Moscow is unlikely to make clarifications, let alone take back words or make excuses, to avoid irritating its strategic partner. This means that in this rapidly changing environment, Russia’s big diplomatic success will consist in standing ground and withholding pressure from both sides — even if this neutrality is taken as a lack of support.

_Anton Tsvetov is a Southeast Asia researcher with the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), a Moscow-based foreign policy think tank. He tweets on Asian affairs and Russian foreign policy at__@antsvetov__. The views expressed here are the author’s own and do not reflect those of RIAC_

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## rott

Japanese news source?

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## sword1947

ask putin first, then you will know the answer.

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## S10

Heh @ "Permanent Court of Arbitration smashed China's Nine Dash Line"

Since when do a kangaroo clown show without any affiliation to UN able to judge matters related to a UN treaty?

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## nik141993

rott said:


> Japanese news source?


Yes only CCP source are reliable

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## rott

nik141993 said:


> Yes only CCP source are reliable


You are correct.

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## Tamilnadu

anyone will be stupid if they think russia will take sides on SCS.it will be China all alone even china knows it.

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## jerry_tan

S10 said:


> Heh @ "Permanent Court of Arbitration smashed China's Nine Dash Line"
> 
> Since when do a kangaroo clown show without any affiliation to UN able to judge matters related to a UN treaty?[/QUOTE
> You forgot that China is signatury of UNCLOS.
> 
> 
> 
> S10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh @ "Permanent Court of Arbitration smashed China's Nine Dash Line"
> 
> Since when do a kangaroo clown show without any affiliation to UN able to judge matters related to a UN treaty?
Click to expand...



*Don't worry CHina & Philppines will meet again this time UN ICJ so better prepare yourself to avoid further embarrassment.*


*http://www.forbes.com/sites/andersc...outh-china-sea-rent-and-damages/#116bb0946035*

*Philippines Should Sue China For $177 Billion In South China Sea Rent And Damages*

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## T-Rex

Tamilnadu said:


> anyone will be stupid if they think russia will take sides on SCS.it will be China all alone even china knows it.



*This time Russia will be compelled to take a side, if not publicly then definitely behind the closed doors. Anyone who says otherwise does not know the basis of the Sino-Russian alliance.*

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## S10

jerry_tan said:


> *Don't worry CHina & Philppines will meet again this time UN ICJ so better prepare yourself to avoid further embarrassment.*
> 
> 
> *http://www.forbes.com/sites/andersc...outh-china-sea-rent-and-damages/#116bb0946035*
> 
> *Philippines Should Sue China For $177 Billion In South China Sea Rent And Damages*


Hah! And I'm gonna be president of United States riding a unicorn to the White House.

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## Allen Iverson

T-Rex said:


> *This time Russia will be compelled to take a side, if not publicly then definitely behind the closed doors. Anyone who says otherwise does not know the basis of the Sino-Russian alliance.*


ya?? I don't remember Chinese voicing their opinion going out of the line against any international ruling for Russia so far in any international matters.. Do you know Chinese response for CRIMEA .. China indirectly supported Ukraine, but distanced itself from any direct responses.. Who will compel Russia to take a stand?? China..? Tell that to Mr Putin, and he will show how he got tickled in some private parts of his body by laughing off this stupid statement.. It seems you are the only one who does not know the basis of Sino Russian alliance.. So better learn and then Big mouth..
@SpArK @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Tamilnadu

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## HongWu002

LOL at propaganda article. Russia rejected its ally Vietnam so badly. Just like 1979, Vietnam boasted about its support from Soviet Union but nobody saved them from China attack.

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## T-Rex

Allen Iverson said:


> ya?? I don't remember Chinese voicing their opinion going out of the line against any international ruling for Russia so far in any international matters.. Do you know Chinese response for CRIMEA .. China indirectly supported Ukraine, but distanced itself from any direct responses.. Who will compel Russia to take a stand?? China..? Tell that to Mr Putin, and he will show how he got tickled in some private parts of his body by laughing off this stupid statement.. It seems you are the only one who does not know the basis of Sino Russian alliance.. So better learn and then Big mouth..
> @SpArK @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Tamilnadu



*So, why don't you clarify Putin's stand on this issue Mr. wiseguy? Post Putin's or any of his minister's statement against China's stand on the issue.*

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## Beidou2020

China will do what it wants, when it wants, however it wants in the South China Sea.

No military or tribunal will stop Chinese activities in the South China Sea.

End of story!

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## Allen Iverson

T-Rex said:


> *So, why don't you clarify Putin's stand on this issue Mr. wiseguy? Post Putin's or any of his minister's statement against China's stand on the issue.*


Exactly my point.. Putin didn't share his opinion, instead he kept silent.. But when China showed middle finger to Russia during crimea issue, I can only imagine, what Putin will do, in this matter.. He did exactly what china did, by letting his external affairs ministry spokes person talk on behalf him.. Russia just returned china's favour..


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## T-Rex

Allen Iverson said:


> Exactly my point.. Putin didn't share his opinion, instead he kept silent.. But when China showed middle finger to Russia during crimea issue, I can only imagine, what Putin will do, in this matter.. He did exactly what china did, by letting his external affairs ministry spokes person talk on behalf him.. Russia just returned china's favour..



*And what was that Russian response?*

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## Hamartia Antidote

jerry_tan said:


> http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/did-russia-just-ask-china-to-buzz-off-on-the-south-china-sea/
> 
> *Did Russia Just Ask China to ‘Buzz Off’ on the South China Sea?*
> The Russian MFA statement after the PCA ruling was not as soft on China as usual.
> 
> By Anton Tsvetov
> July 16, 2016
> 2.9k
> 4
> 3
> *2.9k* Shares
> 
> No appeasement. No accommodation. On July 12, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague smashed China’s expansive nine-dash line claim in the South China Sea, as well as its conduct with regards to the environment and Philippine fishermen, as inconsistent with the Constitution of the Oceans – the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). Beijing is now in damage control mode – disregarding the court’s jurisdiction, denying any compliance with the merits and making a list of international reactions.
> 
> On the long list of countries Beijing claims to have support from, Russia is the largest and most influential state. Moscow’s reaction to the court ruling was somewhat delayed and was voiced on July 14. It also came in the form of an answer to a question posed by a Chinese journalist at the weekly press briefing by the foreign ministry’s spokeswoman Maria Zakharova – a clear sign that Russia wishes to distance itself from the disputes and does not regard the South China Sea as a first tier issue.
> 
> As usual with the Russian stance, Moscow expressed support for a diplomatic solution to the dispute by the parties involved, called for compliance with international law, including UNCLOS and the 2002 Declaration of Conduct, and an early conclusion of a binding Code of Conduct.
> 
> *Enjoying this article?* Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
> But there was something else. The Russian MFA spokeswoman explicitly said that Russia does not take sides in the conflict. Though making the case against extra-regional involvement, she did not mention non-claimants that are using the situation for their own geopolitical considerations, the usual euphemism for the United States. Finally, she mentioned UNCLOS not once but twice, supporting the Convention’s role in upholding rule of law in the oceans and stressing the universal nature of the document.
> 
> These minor additions made the fresh Russian statement go a little bit beyond the baseline. Emotionally, it looked like a snap of the teeth toward extensive pressure. And pressure there has been. There is no doubt that Beijing has utilized bilateral channels to push Russia toward more support. Just one day before the ruling was announced, the deputy chief of China’s diplomatic mission to Russia visited the Foreign Ministry to discuss “current bilateral and global issues.” Zakharova said that Russia will not be drawn into the disputes and it is rather clear who has been most industrious in trying to do so.
> 
> Previously, China has been very liberal with Russia’s position, bending the non-internationalization clause as proof of Russian support. If we take the clause at face value, then it makes perfect sense, as Moscow has been historically against any interventions by extra-regional states into its own neighborhood and other neighborhoods by extension. However, when put into context it sounds too much in harmony with China’s opposition to the internationalization of the South China Sea disputes, by which Beijing means mainly two things – U.S. involvement and international arbitration.
> 
> Beijing, as it has done previously, will still count Russia on the list of states that support China in its defiance of any arbitration and this week’s PCA ruling in particular. Moscow is unlikely to make clarifications, let alone take back words or make excuses, to avoid irritating its strategic partner. This means that in this rapidly changing environment, Russia’s big diplomatic success will consist in standing ground and withholding pressure from both sides — even if this neutrality is taken as a lack of support.
> 
> _Anton Tsvetov is a Southeast Asia researcher with the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), a Moscow-based foreign policy think tank. He tweets on Asian affairs and Russian foreign policy at__@antsvetov__. The views expressed here are the author’s own and do not reflect those of RIAC_



http://www.mid.ru/en/press_service/video/-/asset_publisher/i6t41cq3VWP6/content/id/2354135

*Question: On July 12, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague rendered a judgment on the jurisdiction of certain islands in China’s economic zone. What do you think about the decision, and what is Russia’s attitude towards China’s policy in the South China Sea?*

*Maria Zakharova: *We would like to note the following in connection with the July 12 ruling of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague concerning the well-known lawsuit filed by the Philippines. It is our position that the states involved in territorial disputes in these seas should honour the principle of the non-use of force, and that they should continue to search for a diplomatic settlement based on international law, mainly the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. They should act in accordance with the spirit of ASEAN and PRC documents, specifically, the 2002 Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea and the guidelines for following the declaration that were coordinated in 2011.

We support ASEAN and PRC efforts to draft a code of conduct in the South China Sea. I will remind you that Russia is not involved in territorial disputes in that region, and that it has no intention of getting involved. We consider it a matter of principle not to side with any party. We believe that the concerned parties should conduct negotiations in a format they define. We also believe attempts to interfere in a resolution of territorial issues in the South China Sea by external parties to be counter-productive. We support the role of the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea in ensuring the rule of law during activities in the world’s oceans. Moreover, it is important that the provisions of this universal international treaty be applied consistently and in a way that will not jeopardise the integrity of the legal system stipulated by the convention.


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## HongWu002

Hamartia Antidote said:


> *We also believe attempts to interfere in a resolution of territorial issues in the South China Sea by external parties to be counter-productive. We support the role of the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea in ensuring the rule of law during activities in the world’s oceans. Moreover, it is important that the provisions of this universal international treaty be applied consistently and in a way that will not jeopardise the integrity of the legal system stipulated by the convention.*


Quoted for truth.

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Allen Iverson said:


> But when China showed middle finger to Russia during crimea issue


What a stupid rumor!
Shame on you.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jerry_tan said:


> *Don't worry CHina & Philppines will meet again this time UN ICJ so better prepare yourself to avoid further embarrassment.*
> 
> 
> *http://www.forbes.com/sites/andersc...outh-china-sea-rent-and-damages/#116bb0946035*
> 
> *Philippines Should Sue China For $177 Billion In South China Sea Rent And Damages*



*Go hire American lawyers for extra 30 millions *

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## Allen Iverson

T-Rex said:


> *So, why don't you clarify Putin's stand on this issue Mr. wiseguy? Post Putin's or any of his minister's statement against China's stand on the issue.*


Dumbass, that is the whole point of this article.. Read the OP again and ask this question to yourself. Mr Unwise Guy..



TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> What a stupid rumor!
> Shame on you.


I should say shame on you, for letting down Russia when it required you the most, and now begging for her support.. The word Shame is not in the dictionary of china I think..



T-Rex said:


> *And what was that Russian response?*


What do you think it is?? Read the OP again.. You'll understand the context..


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## sword1947

nik141993 said:


> Yes only CCP source are reliable


any message from Putin to proof this artical said?

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Allen Iverson said:


> for letting down Russia when it required you the most, and now begging for her support..


Do indians all talk like you?
Without any evidence you keep spitting bullshit,sick man.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Here we go again... for those who wish ill to China will make peacocks out of chicken feathers.. Especially the ill wishers in the south.

Even if the entire world did not support China's position would it matter? 

Russia is strategic partner for China. The Chinese just bailed them out financially. 
Now NATO breathing down their necks in Eastern Europe, do you think that they will need China more or less?

Let us guess who is going to support them? Will be indians? Did they support them for Crimea?

Apart from cheering of ill wishing hordes of the south... None is going to give a toss. ASEAN standing upto China?

Asian must focus on Peace and Development.

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## T-Rex

Allen Iverson said:


> Dumbass, that is the whole point of this article.. Read the OP again and ask this question to yourself. Mr Unwise Guy..
> 
> What do you think it is?? Read the OP again.. You'll understand the context..


*
Listen jackass, I've been listening to your crap for a while, the point is Putin or his ministers never said a word against China's stand on the issue and that means they support China's stand. If they had said anything you wanted to hear jackasses like you wouldn't wait to produce it on PDF.*

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## Allen Iverson

TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> Do indians all talk like you?
> Without any evidence you keep spitting bullshit,sick man.


Do all Chinese talk like you..?? Pansies.. Shitty peopleTalks about rules when it comes to NSG but doesn't care to bother any rules when it comes to Hague ruling because it doesn't favour you right??.. How does the double standards work for you.. Russians showed you their finger when you ran to them for support.. Like how you showed fingers to them during Crimea issue.. Learn to live with it..



T-Rex said:


> *Listen jackass, I've been listening to your crap for a while, the point is Putin or his ministers never said a word against China's stand on the issue and that means they support China's stand. If they had said anything you wanted to hear jackasses like you wouldn't wait to produce it on PDF.*


Listen most respected Lungi, I've been trying to understand your posts so far but failed to do so, because of no logic.. Now coming to the topic, the foreign ministry spokes women *MARIA ZAKHAROVA Said as below, 
"*We support ASEAN and PRC efforts to draft a code of conduct in the South China Sea. I will remind you that Russia is not involved in territorial disputes in that region, and that it has no intention of getting involved. We consider it a matter of principle not to side with any party. We believe that the concerned parties should conduct negotiations in a format they define. We also believe attempts to interfere in a resolution of territorial issues in the South China Sea by external parties to be counter-productive. We support the role of the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea in ensuring the rule of law during activities in the world’s oceans. Moreover, it is important that the provisions of this universal international treaty be applied consistently and in a way that will not jeopardise the integrity of the legal system stipulated by the convention."

This is exactly what the Chinese did in Crimea issue.. When Russia asked to support, China issued a statement that, it respects the sovereignity of Ukraine and doesn't want to get involved and hence it doesn't support any.. Now do you know how to apply logic and understand the context of this, especially when china who is doing Billions of Dollars business with Russia, ask them for their help and support and they get a response like this..Keep your china looking Logic within you.. That will save some bandwidth in this forum..


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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Allen Iverson said:


> Do all Chinese talk like you..?? Pansies.. Shitty peopleTalks about rules when it comes to NSG but doesn't care to bother any rules when it comes to Hague ruling because it doesn't favour you right??.. How does the double standards work for you.. Russians showed you their finger when you ran to them for support.. Like how you showed fingers to them during Crimea issue..


You have no logics and your brain is full of emotion,enjoy yourself.

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## T-Rex

Allen Iverson said:


> Do all Chinese talk like you..?? Pansies.. Shitty peopleTalks about rules when it comes to NSG but doesn't care to bother any rules when it comes to Hague ruling because it doesn't favour you right??.. How does the double standards work for you.. Russians showed you their finger when you ran to them for support.. Like how you showed fingers to them during Crimea issue.. Learn to live with it..
> 
> 
> Listen most respected Lungi, I've been trying to understand your posts so far but failed to do so, because of no logic.. Now coming to the topic, the foreign ministry spokes women *MARIA ZAKHAROVA Said as below,
> "*We support ASEAN and PRC efforts to draft a code of conduct in the South China Sea. I will remind you that Russia is not involved in territorial disputes in that region, and that it has no intention of getting involved. We consider it a matter of principle not to side with any party. We believe that the concerned parties should conduct negotiations in a format they define. We also believe attempts to interfere in a resolution of territorial issues in the South China Sea by external parties to be counter-productive. We support the role of the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea in ensuring the rule of law during activities in the world’s oceans. Moreover, it is important that the provisions of this universal international treaty be applied consistently and in a way that will not jeopardise the integrity of the legal system stipulated by the convention."
> 
> This is exactly what the Chinese did in Crimea issue.. When Russia asked to support, China issued a statement that, it respects the sovereignity of Ukraine and doesn't want to get involved and hence it doesn't support any.. Now do you know how to apply logic and understand the context of this, especially when china who is doing Billions of Dollars business with Russia, ask them for their help and support and they get a response like this..Keep your china looking Logic within you.. That will save some bandwidth in this forum..


*
So, now you've come down to a spokesperson level. How do we know that she's not your face-book acquaintance posing as Russian spokesperson? Without the source it means nothing.*

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## Allen Iverson

TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> You have no logics and your brain is full of emotion,enjoy yourself.


Emotions filled in Brain?? There you go again..


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## sword1947

Allen Iverson said:


> ya?? I don't remember Chinese voicing their opinion going out of the line against any international ruling for Russia so far in any international matters.. Do you know Chinese response for CRIMEA .. China indirectly supported Ukraine, but distanced itself from any direct responses.. Who will compel Russia to take a stand?? China..? Tell that to Mr Putin, and he will show how he got tickled in some private parts of his body by laughing off this stupid statement.. It seems you are the only one who does not know the basis of Sino Russian alliance.. So better learn and then Big mouth..
> @SpArK @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Tamilnadu


only you do that, we do not

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## yusheng

2015 spring，China&Russia had drill in The Mediterranean Sea;
2016 autumn, China&Russia will have drill in SCS,

Don't you think that is meaningless?

diplomatic rhetoric is only rehtoric, action is actual.

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## jerry_tan

yusheng said:


> 2015 spring，China&Russia had drill in The Mediterranean Sea;
> 2016 autumn, China&Russia will have drill in SCS,
> 
> Don't you think that is meaningless?
> 
> diplomatic rhetoric is only rehtoric, action is actual.


So what , you think like a 10 year old child



Globenim said:


> Dogs desperately beg Russia to recognize their cangaroo trial no one cares for.
> 
> Russia nicely says its not taking part in their clown show.
> 
> Somehow the dogs spin that into Russia "abondoning" China.
> 
> Lol.. its really getting pathethic now...



Kangaroo courts are inside commie China . ..

Who's pathetic now ,  while the communist government is doing damage control 

http://www.bigstory.ap.org/article/...th-china-sea-china-willing-pay-price-defiance


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## rott

TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> What a stupid rumor!
> Shame on you.


He's awaiting for the 'ban" wagon.

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## AlyxMS

jerry_tan said:


> Kangaroo courts are inside commie China . ..
> 
> Who's pathetic now ,  while the communist government is doing damage control
> 
> *URL*


Judging from that article:
the only two quotes from Chinese officials are:

"The South China Sea arbitration unilaterally initiated by the Philippines is nothing but a political scheme for one party to insult the other and will be recorded as an infamous case in the history of international law,"

and

"We don't understand why the U.S. has been so active in backing the arbitration behind the scene,"
"As time goes by, I believe the plot will eventually come to light."



> while the communist government is doing damage control


Spoken as if it's a fact. While the entirety of the article is guess work.

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## lcloo

In the ASEM summit held in Mongolia concluded on last week end.

Russia voiced their support for China. this is official. 

Even Vietnam's Nguyen Xuan Phuc said his nation respects China's stance on the arbitration, adding that the disputes should be solved peacefully through negotiations.




_In the meeting with Li, Vietnam's Nguyen Xuan Phuc said his nation respects China's stance on the arbitration, adding that the disputes should be solved peacefully through negotiations.

Lao Prime Minister Thongloun Sisoulith said on the same day that Laos supports China's stance over the South China Sea issue, and stands ready to work with China to maintain peace and stability in the region.

Their words were echoed by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, who said on Friday that his country supports settlement of the South China Sea disputes through dialogue and consultation between countries directly concerned.
_
_Russia__n Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev also said Russia opposes the internationalization of the South China Sea disputes or any interference by the forces outside the region.

*Russia supports China's principles on resolving the disputes*, Medvedev said. He called for bilateral negotiations and consultations between directly relevant parties to solve the issue.

Source: __https://defence.pk/threads/south-china-sea-news-discussions.196058/page-705#ixzz4EiFFapmc_

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## CAPRICORN-88

China and Russia described themselves as "Comprehensive strategic partner" but are in fact closer than that.

Both these nations hold annual military exercise including naval, aerial together. 

When Putin was installed, the first country he visited was China and vice versa for the China's President Xi Jin-ping.

Their political views are almost similar. Bilateral trades have been increasing tremendously over the years e.g. Russia signed a significant gas supply and pipeline deal with China, China designed cars are experiencing booming sales in Russia, Russia are now using China designed aircrafts - Y-12, etc

So it is NOT surprising when Russia voiced their support for China in the South China Sea?

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## terranMarine

Putin telling China to buzz off? It keeps getting crazy here all the time, are they getting so desperate now that they have to fabricate what's going on in Putin's mind? Let the Russian PM spell it out for ya "Russia is asking outsiders to buzz off on the SCS issue"

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## oprih

The alliance between China and Russia is rock solid, no matter how much daydreaming indians do, nothing will change.

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## TaiShang

*How Hague Verdict on S China Sea Failed to See ‘Western Hypocrisy’*
© AFP 2016/ STR

21:10 17.07.2016

*The Hague-based Permanent Court of Arbitration ruled that China has no legal basis to claim historic rights to resources in the South China Sea. China called this decision 'invalid'.*

Despite China’s rejection of the decision, several countries including the US have been pressuring China to accept the void verdict under the banner of “respect for law”.


Ever since the Philippines filed the South China Sea arbitration, the US, Australia, Japan and some other countries accused China of violating international law.

According to China's People's Daily newspaper, “This tough talk only exposed their dirty strategic motives. Such tricks are not able to cover the legitimacy of China’s stances, nor alter the strong support to China from those international forces standing for justice.”

The publication further mentioned that the above countries adopted a completely different attitude when they were involved in issues related with the international rule of law. Hence, such sharp contrast speaks for their hypocrisy and unpredictability.

“They supported international judicial rules that they can benefit from, but trampled on that not in favor of them ,” the newspaper wrote.

The publication mentioned that the US has never been accused under UNCLOS because Washington never approved the law, an article on Foreign Affairs wrote in an ironic tone.

“Back in the 1980s, Nicaragua charged the US with taking military and paramilitary actions in and against Nicaragua and violating the sovereignty of Nicaragua in the International Court of Justice (ICJ).”

The ICJ ruled in favor of Nicaragua and gave reparations to Nicaragua. But the US, with a tough attitude, declined participation in the events and overruled the verdict delivered by the ICJ.

The US later obstructed enforcement of the judgment by the UN Security Council and banned Nicaragua from obtaining any definite compensation.

“The same goes for Australia, which always wants to follow the ‘international police’ posture. When concluding maritime rights treaties with Timor-Leste, the Australian government unilaterally rejected such articles concerning maritime delimitation and third-party dispute settlement procedure. Without any other options, Timor-Leste had to file for arbitration to overrule the validity of the treaty,” People’s Daily reported.


In order to stop Timor-Leste from initiating the arbitration, the Australian intelligence agency went as far as searching the legal representative office of Timor-Leste in Australia, delaying documents and stopping witnesses from appearing before the tribunal.


Another country which is no stranger to violating international law is Japan. Its whale-hunt in Antarctica was ruled as breaching the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling by the ICJ, which ordered Japan to stop distributing whaling permits in the South Pole.

“Though talking a good talk about respecting the verdict, the Japanese government did not match its actions with words. No effective measures were taken to curb domestic whaling.”

Contrary to, Western countries, China has always resolutely maintained the authority of international law.

At the commemoration marking the 60th anniversary of the "Five Principles of Peaceful Co-existence," Chinese President Xi Jinping pointed out that all countries should advance the rule of law in international relations together.

“We should urge all parties to abide by international law and well-recognized basic principles governing international relations and use widely applicable rules to tell right from wrong and pursue peace and development,” People’s Daily reported Xi Jinping as saying.

According to the publication, unlike Western countries who selectively apply international law, China always applies “the spirit of the international rule of law in its diplomatic practice.” So far, China has established over 23,000 bilateral agreements and joined more than 400 multilateral treaties.

In January 2013, the Philippines filed a suit against China, claiming that Beijing had violated the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea by its actions in the South China Sea. China refused to participate in the case.

Last week, the Hague-based Permanent Court of Arbitration ruled that China has no legal basis to claim historic rights to South China Sea resources and violated the sovereign rights of the Philippines in the country’s exclusive economic zone.

*sputniknews.com/asia/20160717/1043172326/south-china-sea-hague-verdict.html*

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## Jlaw

*yawn*

why isn't there an emoticon for the yawn?

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## TaiShang

*Russia And China Discuss Joint Outer-Space Exploration, Moon And Even Mars*





Originally appeared at *Forbes
*
China and Russia are discussing joint cooperation in outer-space exploration, including missions to the Moon and even Mars , according to a statement by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on Wednesday.

“Yesterday, we (Rogozin and Vice-Premier of China’s State Council Wang Yang) worked for three and a half hours, discussing cooperation in the nuclear sphere and cooperation in the issues of interaction between our space agencies where there are such large projects as the deliveries of rocket engines, and cooperation in navigation systems,” the Russian vice-premier said.

He made his remarks during a talk with the heads of Russian regions and Chinese provinces and the managers of companies from both countries. The expo is an annual industrial exhibition held since 2014 within the framework of the Harbin Trade Fair.

“We’re developing an understanding for the rocket and space industry for possible interaction in such profound and technologically complex projects as the future exploration of the Moon, Mars and piloted cosmonautics,” he said.

Rogozin added that both countries have the potential to implement such impressive projects as trust exists both at the political level and at the level of specialists solving these issues.

Rogozin’s statement’s come less than a month after Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to Beijing. During that meeting the two sides inked a pact setting out the legal framework for protecting their rights to sensitive space technologies in joint projects like launch vehicles and rocket engines.

*China’s lunar program needs Russia*

Rogozin said on July 6 that China might buy rocket engines for its space program from Russia, adding that China was interested “in a number of services and products, which will be very important for the development of the Chinese space program, in particular, for its lunar program.” He said that China’s lunar program is practically impossible without “certain supplies of equipment from Russia.”

Russia’s Ambassador to China, Andrey Denisov, said the two sides have been discussing the prospects of cooperation with space stations and making long-distance space flights. He added that “this cooperation is of purely peaceful, civilian nature and will finally benefit the entire humankind rather than only the participating states.”

China, for its part, has already ramped-up its pace program, conducting 19 successful space flights last year, with 20 planned for 2016. It also plans to launch to launch its Tiangong 2 space laboratory and a manned spacecraft Shenzhou 11, among other military and commercial orbital missions.

Earlier this month, according to state-run Xinhua news agency, China shipped the Tiangong 2 to the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in the Gobi desert, where it will be launched into space in mid-September. The module was transported by rail from Beijing.

The Tiangong 1 was launched in 2011 and hosted two crews of taikonauts (Chinese astronauts) in 2012 and 2013. China releases less information about its space activities than other nations, while plans for Tiangong 1 remain unclear.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Personally, I would rather see China doing it alone. After all China has the capacity and skilled workforce.
But if it serves the Chinese strategic needs then why not.

Any progess in space is good for mankind.

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## onebyone

The Chinese People’s Republic Army Air Force (PLAAF) is believed to have received four low production rate J-20 jets, which have been tested and completed acceptance tests recently. The first front-line regiment is supposed to activate and receive aircraft by June 2017 and is expected to be combat ready by 2019. That milestone could be pushed forward, given the budget priority. The final requirement could be between 500 to 700.

Chengdu’s No.611 Institute developed the plane. This large interceptor made its first flight in 2011. Two Russian-made Saturn AL-31F power the prototypes and first production aircraft accelerating it to a maximum speed of Mach 1.7.

Two lateral bays accommodate highly maneuverable PL-9/PL-10 IR missile. The main weapon bay can carry longer weapons can accommodate four PL-15 medium-range AAMs or the new PL-21 ramjet powered, long Range Air/Air Missiles, similar to the MBDA Meteor. Additionally, large air/ground weapons can be carried in this bay.









In 2015, Russia slowed PAK FA (T-50) production and reduce its initial order to 12 jets due to the nation's deteriorating economy, along with the manufacturer's ability to produce the more complex aircraft.

Russian Air Force Commander-in-Chief Viktor Bondarev, stated that the PAK FA is to enter serial production in 2017, after all trials are complete. Due to the aircraft's complexity and rising costs, the Russian Air Force will retain large fleets of fourth-generation Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-35S fighters.

The United States could build over 2000 F-35 stealth fighters and has built 187 F-22 stealth fighters.

The U.S. and eight partner nations + Israel, Japan, and South Korea have planned to acquire a total of 3,170 F-35s. 

The US should build 873 F-35s by 2022.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/07/china-likely-to-beat-russia-as-second.html

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## seven7seven

Never mind Russia, China is competing hard with USA, to produce large volumes of 5th gen fighters. It's not really hard to figure out why China is making such fast progress. You need ample funding, advanced research and manufacturing capacity, political will from their leadership, and good reason (SCS disputes) to build these expensive and sophisticated weapons. All of these things China has plenty of.

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## TaiShang

*China’s Newest 1,305MPH Next-Gen Stealth J-20 Fighter Jet Soars the Skies*

22:01 23.07.2016

*The advance of the J-20 fighter program is cause for concern for Japan which faces a several year capability gap until the F-35 Lightning II becomes combat ready – if it ever does.*

China’s Chengdu Aircraft Company (CAC) has built a new Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) J-20 stealth fighter jets with video footage on Chinese websites showing the latest rendition in full fury this week. This is the second known J-20 LRIP fighter jet after the first with the serial number 2101 displayed in late December 2015. There are believed to be a total of four such next generation jets in the possession of the Chinese Air Force.

The fighter jet is painted in shades of gray along with a toned down national insignia, but unlike previous J-20s, it has no identifiable serial numbers. China’s official Xinhua and CCTV news outlets have yet to confirm the existence of the new J-20 despite video evidence to confirm its existence.

Security analysts believe that the appearance of the LRIP fighter jet suggests that it is nearing introduction into service with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force well ahead of official US Department of Defense projections that the J-20 would become operational in 2018.

The J-20 soars at a top speed of 1,305MPH (2,100kmh) and features a stealth design comparable to Lockheed-Martin’s F-35 Lightning II although with far fewer reported technical setbacks and safety concerns. The J-20’s weapons are carried internally, with a central bay believed to contain four beyond visual range air-to-air missiles (BVRAAMs) as well as two short-range air-to-air missiles (AAMs).


Only one challenge remains before the J-20 is inducted into the Chinese Air Force – what power source will be used for mass production of the fighter jet? Currently, the J-20 is powered by two Russian Saturn AL-31 engines, but Beijing hopes to eventually install 180-kN (40,000-pound-trhust) rated WS-15 turbofans, but the indigenous jet engine development program has run into a series of manufacturing problems that has delayed their full scale production.


The emergence of the J-20 over the skies of the South and East China Seas would provide Beijing with unparalleled regional air superiority as they continue to battle over the contested Paracel and Spratly Islands amidst US intervention and for the Senkaku (Diaoyu) Islands against Japan. 

The advance of the J-20 fighter jet comes at a worrying time for Tokyo which faces a several year capability gap as they wait to see whether a functional F-35 fighter jet will ever fully materialize after the US prohibited their ally from acquiring the ultra-elite F-22 Raptor.

Sputnik News

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## TaiShang

*Will Russia and China Build an SCO-Based Joint Missile Defense System?*

21:57 20.07.2016(updated 22:26 20.07.2016)

*Russia and China may create a unified missile defense system for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. That's the conclusion of experts speaking at a forum dedicated to the US deployment of the THAAD anti-ballistic missile system in South Korea. What would the Russian-Chinese system look like? Sputnik investigates.*

On Monday, experts in Moscow and Beijing spoke via video conference on the implications for regional security of the US deployment of missile defense systems in South Korea. And while the forum focused mostly on political and military implications of the THAAD deployment, experts also intrigued observers by indicating that it was possible for Russia and China to join together to create a single missile defense shield over the entirety of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the political, economic and military organization involving much of eastern Eurasia. 





© Sputnik/ Ruslan Krivobok
Russia, China Could be 'Driving Force' in Creation of SCO Joint Missile Shield

Regarding the THAAD deployment, Moscow has repeatedly indicated that it was categorically opposed to the move. THAAD, capable of monitoring ballistic and aerial targets at distances of up to 1,500 km, is expected to give the US military the capability to 'see' into the territory of the Russian Federation, and even further into that of China.


Speaking at the video conference on Monday, Vladimir Petrovsky, a senior researcher at the Moscow-based Center for the Studies and Forecasting of Russia-China Relations at the Institute for Far Eastern Studies, explained that the potential for a joint missile defense shield exists. Moreover, such a shield would be entirely appropriate given recent US moves, from its deployment of missile shield components in Eastern Europe to the deployment of THAAD in South Korea. 

"Russia and China could become the driving force in the area of missile defense. Special attention should be paid to the land-based interception systems which we have at our disposal," the analyst said.





© REUTERS/ Lee Jong-hyun/News1 via REUTERS
THAAD Dilemma: Seoul's Safety Assurances 'Nothing But Enforcement'

Recently, the analyst recalled, Japan, South Korea and the United States conducted drills practicing the interception of ballistic missiles using the maritime-based US Aegis system. The appropriate response from Moscow and Beijing, according to Petrovsky, would be for the two countries' air defense forces to conduct similar joint exercises at the Ashuluk range in Russia's Astrakhan region.

Asked to comment on Petrovsky's words, experts speaking to the independent online news and analysis hub Svobodnaya Pressa indicated that a joint missile defense system was entirely within the realm of possibility.





© Sputnik/ Artem Zhitenev

An S-300PM missile system deployed at the Ashuluk firing range for Aerospace Defense Forces tactical exercises. File photo.

Vladimir Evseev, the deputy director at the CIS Institute, indicated that he believes the creation of a united anti-missile defense system is definitely possible.

"Just to specify, we are talking about an anti-missile defense system, not air defense in general. In May, Russia and China staged their first joint missile defense exercises using computer simulations in Moscow. This was the first step in a plan to create a joint missile defense system. The next could be to gather real-world experience on the interception of ballistic targets, for example, at the Ashuluk range."

The expert noted that at present, China has two battalions of S-300PMU surface-to-air missile systems, two regiments of S-300PMU-1s and four regiments of S-300PMU-2s. Moreover, they have their own domestically developed SAM system – the HQ-9, created on the basis of its Russian analogues. This includes a maritime variant of the complex – the HHQ-9. "In addition, China has an analogue to the American Aegis system – built on the basis of France's Thomson-CSF TAVITA."





© Photo: Wikipedia
HongQi 9 [HQ-9] launcher pictured in Beijing during the 60th anniversary parade dedicated to China's founding, 2009.

These systems are capable of intercepting ballistic targets at altitudes of up to 30 km and speeds of 1.5-2 km per second. Russia soon plans to supply Beijing with the S-400 Triumf; that system's basic missiles are also capable of intercepting targets at altitudes of about 30 km, but at higher precision.


Russian defense systems, in addition to the S-300 and S-400, also include the Moscow Air Defense System's A-135 missile, capable of intercepting enemy missiles at altitudes of up to 60 km.

"With regard to missile attack early warning systems (EWS), that of Russia is of course more advanced, and includes ground-based early warning radar (including the Daryal, Volga, Don-2N and Voronezh radar systems), plus the group of satellites in high elliptical and geostationary orbit."





© Sputnik/ Igor Zarembo

A Voronezh-series radar system in the Kaliningrad region. The Voronezh-series radar station features a high level of standardization and prefabrication, allowing for it to be deployed more cheaply and quickly than its predecessors.
Effectively, Evseev noted that "based on available funds, we could carry out exercises and make an attempt to intercept a ballistic target over Russian territory using joint calculations and, later on, eventually strive for the creation of collective missile defense."

"Such a move would serve as an effective response to US plans to deploy elements of missile defense in space. It is space-based ABM specifically which threatens to provide guaranteed interception – during the active phase of the missile's flight. And at this stage it is not necessary to make choices about the real targets within a cloud of decoys, as is the case when interception is carried out during the passive phase," nearer to the ground.

Ultimately, the analyst warned, if the US continues to develop its space-based missile defense components, "the only effective means against such a system would be the use of anti-satellite weapons. We know that China has tested with such systems, and we have similar designs, even if they are not widely advertised. In my view, we can only respond to Washington through the combination of military and diplomatic efforts. Diplomacy alone will not stop the construction of the US missile defense system."

For his part, Vasily Kashin, a senior researcher at the Institute of Far Eastern Studies, noted that Russian-Chinese cooperation in the field of missile defense is possibile, although a full-scale joint shield is unlikely.

At the same time, Kashin indicated, "creating a collective missile defense system in the framework of the SCO is not possible by definition, given the specifics of the organization and the policies of its members. For example, a country like Uzbekistan may have its own dissenting opinion on the issue, not to mention the positions of India and Pakistan," set to join the SCO in 2017.

"As for collective missile defense between Russia and China, it is an unlikely scenario, but possible, given that cooperation in this field already exists. China is now in the process of creating an early warning system, and is developing a strategy for missile defense, including theater missile defense."

In this sense, Kashin suggested, "Beijing is naturally interested in our experience and, possibly, in an automated system of data exchange. As we know, missiles, if they begin their flight from the continental United States, will fly to Russia and China over the North Pole. In principle, the exchange of data in the event of such a global strike may be of interest to our countries. Something of the kind has already been implemented by the US: The Americans receive real-time data from the early warning radar they sold to Taiwan, [and] the same thing seems likely with South Korea."

Still, according to the analyst, a genuine joint Russian-Chinese system of missile defense will most likely remain on the drawing board.

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## BoQ77

the fifth generation is just a relative term.


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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

*WRONG basic THINKING
China does NOT need to beat Russia in anything at all forever*

There is NO need to gloat on J-20.
China does NOT need to beat Russia in anything at all forever.

But for certain CHINA *need to beat the crap out of USA* in every STEM sectors.

@onebyone

May I suggest, Next time, please Examine the Title before you post any news from Western Anglo Saxon media,
and immediately change the wording to benefit All True China Friendly nations and PRC.

Chinese is always losing the Soft Power war against the Western Anglo Saxon media ( LIES + SPINS + DISHONESTY ), because we have been careless in the detail wordings.

Please Pay Attention to the Titles.
Titles from Russian Media about China are always UpLifting.

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

*Awesome, Let's Make It Happen now
SCO-Based Joint Missile Defense System*

Let's make sure to remove all Brainwashed Hanjian Chinese in the Position of Power from blocking the RUSSIAN and CHINESE alliance
~ together RUSSIAN and CHINESE alliance can bleed them all ( usa + Japan + India + Aussie + France + England ) to death -- in the ongoing War of Attrition.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> *Will Russia and China Build an SCO-Based Joint Missile Defense System?*
> 
> 21:57 20.07.2016(updated 22:26 20.07.2016)
> 
> *Russia and China may create a unified missile defense system for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. That's the conclusion of experts speaking at a forum dedicated to the US deployment of the THAAD anti-ballistic missile system in South Korea. What would the Russian-Chinese system look like? Sputnik investigates.*
> 
> On Monday, experts in Moscow and Beijing spoke via video conference on the implications for regional security of the US deployment of missile defense systems in South Korea. And while the forum focused mostly on political and military implications of the THAAD deployment, experts also intrigued observers by indicating that it was possible for Russia and China to join together to create a single missile defense shield over the entirety of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the political, economic and military organization involving much of eastern Eurasia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Sputnik/ Ruslan Krivobok
> Russia, China Could be 'Driving Force' in Creation of SCO Joint Missile Shield
> 
> Regarding the THAAD deployment, Moscow has repeatedly indicated that it was categorically opposed to the move. THAAD, capable of monitoring ballistic and aerial targets at distances of up to 1,500 km, is expected to give the US military the capability to 'see' into the territory of the Russian Federation, and even further into that of China.
> 
> 
> Speaking at the video conference on Monday, Vladimir Petrovsky, a senior researcher at the Moscow-based Center for the Studies and Forecasting of Russia-China Relations at the Institute for Far Eastern Studies, explained that the potential for a joint missile defense shield exists. Moreover, such a shield would be entirely appropriate given recent US moves, from its deployment of missile shield components in Eastern Europe to the deployment of THAAD in South Korea.
> 
> "Russia and China could become the driving force in the area of missile defense. Special attention should be paid to the land-based interception systems which we have at our disposal," the analyst said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © REUTERS/ Lee Jong-hyun/News1 via REUTERS
> THAAD Dilemma: Seoul's Safety Assurances 'Nothing But Enforcement'
> 
> Recently, the analyst recalled, Japan, South Korea and the United States conducted drills practicing the interception of ballistic missiles using the maritime-based US Aegis system. The appropriate response from Moscow and Beijing, according to Petrovsky, would be for the two countries' air defense forces to conduct similar joint exercises at the Ashuluk range in Russia's Astrakhan region.
> 
> Asked to comment on Petrovsky's words, experts speaking to the independent online news and analysis hub Svobodnaya Pressa indicated that a joint missile defense system was entirely within the realm of possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Sputnik/ Artem Zhitenev
> 
> An S-300PM missile system deployed at the Ashuluk firing range for Aerospace Defense Forces tactical exercises. File photo.
> 
> Vladimir Evseev, the deputy director at the CIS Institute, indicated that he believes the creation of a united anti-missile defense system is definitely possible.
> 
> "Just to specify, we are talking about an anti-missile defense system, not air defense in general. In May, Russia and China staged their first joint missile defense exercises using computer simulations in Moscow. This was the first step in a plan to create a joint missile defense system. The next could be to gather real-world experience on the interception of ballistic targets, for example, at the Ashuluk range."
> 
> The expert noted that at present, China has two battalions of S-300PMU surface-to-air missile systems, two regiments of S-300PMU-1s and four regiments of S-300PMU-2s. Moreover, they have their own domestically developed SAM system – the HQ-9, created on the basis of its Russian analogues. This includes a maritime variant of the complex – the HHQ-9. "In addition, China has an analogue to the American Aegis system – built on the basis of France's Thomson-CSF TAVITA."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Photo: Wikipedia
> HongQi 9 [HQ-9] launcher pictured in Beijing during the 60th anniversary parade dedicated to China's founding, 2009.
> 
> These systems are capable of intercepting ballistic targets at altitudes of up to 30 km and speeds of 1.5-2 km per second. Russia soon plans to supply Beijing with the S-400 Triumf; that system's basic missiles are also capable of intercepting targets at altitudes of about 30 km, but at higher precision.
> 
> 
> Russian defense systems, in addition to the S-300 and S-400, also include the Moscow Air Defense System's A-135 missile, capable of intercepting enemy missiles at altitudes of up to 60 km.
> 
> "With regard to missile attack early warning systems (EWS), that of Russia is of course more advanced, and includes ground-based early warning radar (including the Daryal, Volga, Don-2N and Voronezh radar systems), plus the group of satellites in high elliptical and geostationary orbit."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © Sputnik/ Igor Zarembo
> 
> A Voronezh-series radar system in the Kaliningrad region. The Voronezh-series radar station features a high level of standardization and prefabrication, allowing for it to be deployed more cheaply and quickly than its predecessors.
> Effectively, Evseev noted that "based on available funds, we could carry out exercises and make an attempt to intercept a ballistic target over Russian territory using joint calculations and, later on, eventually strive for the creation of collective missile defense."
> 
> "Such a move would serve as an effective response to US plans to deploy elements of missile defense in space. It is space-based ABM specifically which threatens to provide guaranteed interception – during the active phase of the missile's flight. And at this stage it is not necessary to make choices about the real targets within a cloud of decoys, as is the case when interception is carried out during the passive phase," nearer to the ground.
> 
> Ultimately, the analyst warned, if the US continues to develop its space-based missile defense components, "the only effective means against such a system would be the use of anti-satellite weapons. We know that China has tested with such systems, and we have similar designs, even if they are not widely advertised. In my view, we can only respond to Washington through the combination of military and diplomatic efforts. Diplomacy alone will not stop the construction of the US missile defense system."
> 
> For his part, Vasily Kashin, a senior researcher at the Institute of Far Eastern Studies, noted that Russian-Chinese cooperation in the field of missile defense is possibile, although a full-scale joint shield is unlikely.
> 
> At the same time, Kashin indicated, "creating a collective missile defense system in the framework of the SCO is not possible by definition, given the specifics of the organization and the policies of its members. For example, a country like Uzbekistan may have its own dissenting opinion on the issue, not to mention the positions of India and Pakistan," set to join the SCO in 2017.
> 
> "As for collective missile defense between Russia and China, it is an unlikely scenario, but possible, given that cooperation in this field already exists. China is now in the process of creating an early warning system, and is developing a strategy for missile defense, including theater missile defense."
> 
> In this sense, Kashin suggested, "Beijing is naturally interested in our experience and, possibly, in an automated system of data exchange. As we know, missiles, if they begin their flight from the continental United States, will fly to Russia and China over the North Pole. In principle, the exchange of data in the event of such a global strike may be of interest to our countries. Something of the kind has already been implemented by the US: The Americans receive real-time data from the early warning radar they sold to Taiwan, [and] the same thing seems likely with South Korea."
> 
> Still, according to the analyst, a genuine joint Russian-Chinese system of missile defense will most likely remain on the drawing board.



Evolution of SCO is a slow and gradual process. If we want the eaurasian region to remain peaceful and develop to its true potential...we need stability and peace.

Outside forces have tried for decades to keep SCO region backward and poor. OBOR will only succeed if there is Peace under the Heavens.

Sino-Russian cooperation is critical. They must provide security together. BMD is but just one component of it. Very vital of course.

Step in the right direction.

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## Beidou2020

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> *WRONG basic THINKING
> China does NOT need to beat Russia in anything at all forever*
> 
> There is NO need to gloat on J-20.
> China does NOT need to beat Russia in anything at all forever.
> 
> But for certain CHINA *need to beat the crap out of USA* in every STEM sectors.
> 
> @onebyone
> 
> May I suggest, Next time, please Examine the Title before you post any news from Western Anglo Saxon media,
> and immediately change the wording to benefit All True China Friendly nations and PRC.
> 
> Chinese is always losing the Soft Power war against the Western Anglo Saxon media ( LIES + SPINS + DISHONESTY ), because we have been careless in the detail wordings.
> 
> Please Pay Attention to the Titles.
> Titles from Russian Media about China are always UpLifting.



Agreed.

Russia is in a long struggle with the West and its puppets just like China is in.

No need to compare with Russia. Russia has awesome weaponary.

Russians provided weapons to the developing world countries during the 20th century to fight against the Western imperialism.

I have enormous respect for Russia especially the great man Putin!

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## xunzi

I pretty much know we come ahead but Russia is not a competitor. We should personally thank Russia for the aid it provides to us during our period of military weakness.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

There is NO comparison between Russian and China.

There is only cooperation between the two great powers.

Such articles are designed to produce rift or split between the peoples of the two great countries.

The level of strategic cooperation between the two countries have grown so much that trouble makers are getting very worried.

We must work hard for peace and harmony in eurasia. 

Only with peace and harmony OBOR can succeed. Win-win for both great powers.

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## TaiShang

Sinopakfriend said:


> Evolution of SCO is a slow and gradual process. If we want the eaurasian region to remain peaceful and develop to its true potential...we need stability and peace.
> 
> Outside forces have tried for decades to keep SCO region backward and poor. OBOR will only succeed if there is Peace under the Heavens.
> 
> Sino-Russian cooperation is critical. They must provide security together. BMD is but just one component of it. Very vital of course.
> 
> Step in the right direction.



I agree. Global trade remains Pacific-bound. But, global security needs to be Eurasia-bound. The SCO is the framework to ensure this in the long term.

The OBOR, on the other hand, is a plan to bring Eurasia at least on the same foot with the Pacific in terms of trade.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> I agree. Global trade remains Pacific-bound. But, global security needs to be Eurasia-bound. The SCO is the framework to ensure this in the long term.
> 
> The OBOR, on the other hand, is a plan to bring Eurasia at least on the same foot with the Pacific in terms of trade.



Tai Shang, right to the heart of the matter. 

Global trade is for now Pacific bound. However, through OBOR a new civilisation dynmaic is becoming slowly are reality.

From Singapore to Spain, from Moscow to Colombo. 

When all is connected and indusrial zones are established along the road, we will truly enter an age of peace and development.

The momentum is in this direction. There is no doubt. 

Peace and development is a better option than war and conflict. OBOR offers this to all the countries in the belt zone.

Exciting times await us.

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## ahojunk

*President Xi sends congratulatory message to 2016 Media Cooperation Forum on Belt and Road*
By Shi Jing (People's Daily Online) 11:19, July 26, 2016







Chinese President Xi Jinping sent a congratulatory message on Tuesday to the 2016 Media Cooperation Forum on the Belt and Road, calling on media to play a positive role in pushing forward the progress of the initiative.

President Xi said that the Silk Road is a common treasure for people from all over the world. In order to promote the spirit of the Silk Road, China has put forward the Belt and Road Initiative, which will be jointly carried out through extensive consultation so that it honors the interests of all, and promotes policy coordination, facilities connectivity, unimpeded trade, financial integration and person-to-person bonds between countries along the Belt and Road route.

China is willing to join hands with these countries to build the mutually beneficial and cooperative network of Belt and Road, jointly found a new model of cooperation, explore the platform of multilateral cooperation, and push forward programs in key fields to build a green, healthy, intelligent and peaceful Silk Road, Xi said, noting that this will benefit all the people and countries along the road.

"Media plays an essential role in communicating information, enhancing mutual trust and building consensus. This forum provides a platform for media from many countries to engage in dialogue and practice cooperation." The Chinese president added, "We hope to utilize this platform to promote the development of international relations, deliver public opinion and deepen mutual trust, as well as to push forward the progress of the Belt and Road Initiative."

The Media Cooperation Forum on the Belt and Road, which is hosted by People’s Daily, has been held each year since 2014. It is the media forum with the greatest number of participants from various countries and foreign media organizations held by a Chinese media group in recent years.

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## CAPRICORN-88

*The face of Central Asia will be transformed with the OBOR.*

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> *The face of Central Asia will be transformed with the OBOR.*



All of eurasia, ME, South Asia, ASEAN and Africa, my good friend.

Such a bold and vast project has never been undertaken in human history.

This a paradigm shift. From war and violence to peace and co-development.

Humanity needs a new paradigm.

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## ahojunk

*‘Belt and Road’ inks investment worth over $1.4 billion, creates more than 60,000 jobs*
(People's Daily Online) 11:13, July 26, 2016





_(Wang Chen, vice chairman and secretary general of the National People’s Congress (NPC) Standing Committee, addresses the opening ceremony of the 2016 Media Cooperation Forum on Belt and Road. Photo/people.cn) _


The Belt and Road Initiative has helped to create 60,000 jobs around the world with its total investment of more than $1.4 billion so far, a top legislator said Tuesday.

Chinese President Xi Jinping first proposed the Belt and Road Initiative during state visits to Central and Southeast Asia in the spring of 2013. The initiative has been widely supported since that time, especially in countries along the Belt and Road route, said Wang Chen, vice chairman and secretary general of the National People’s Congress (NPC) Standing Committee.

Wang made his remarks at the opening ceremony of the 2016 Media Cooperation Forum on Belt and Road that began July 26 in Beijing.

Wang said that over 70 countries, regions and international organizations have actively participated in Belt and Road construction. He added that China has signed cooperative agreements with more than 30 countries, and over 20 countries have signed industrial capacity cooperative agreements. Some 46 overseas cooperation zones have been established in 17 countries along the Belt and Road route.

“Belt and Road construction has become a common dream, guiding us to pursue peace and development for people in many countries,” Wang said.

The annual media forum, which is hosted by People’s Daily, has been held each year since 2014. It is the media forum with the greatest number of participants from various countries and foreign media organizations held by a Chinese media group in recent years, according Yang Zhenwu, president of People's Daily, at the opening ceremony.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

OBOR = Community of Prosperity.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia navies to hold drill in South China Sea 

Xinhua, July 28, 2016
*
The navies of China and Russia will hold a joint drill in South China Sea in September, spokesperson Yang Yujun of China's Defense Ministry said Thursday.

*The drill, codenamed Joint Sea-2016, is a product of the consensus reached by the two sides, said Yang.*

Held on both land and sea, the drill is a routine one between China and Russia, and does not target any third party, according to Yang.

The drill will consolidate and develop the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination, deepen pragmatic and friendly cooperation between the two militaries, and enhance the capabilities of the two navies to jointly deal with maritime security threats, Yang said.

**

_I was expecting this and I often times said that China-Russia joint drill in the SCS will be part and parcel of China's development and security policy in the region.

The depth and breadth of China-Russia strategic partnership is to take a whole new level with this; clearly indicating Russia's geopolitical posture as it relates to China's competition with the US in the SCS.

Those small countries which put their hope on US help can kiss their faint hope a solid goodbye, because, with Russian involvement on the side of China, US military meddling is less of a likelihood than before.

This is stall a beginning steps of a deeper and more institutional China-Russia partnership. 
_
@Beidou2020 , @Chinese-Dragon , @xunzi , @Sinopakfriend , @AndrewJin , @terranMarine , @Jlaw , @cnleio , @ahojunk , @Jguo , @yusheng , @ChineseTiger1986 , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon , @Three_Kingdoms , @Han Patriot , @rcrmj , @vostok _et al_.

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## Nevsky

Uncle Sam wont be happy with that.

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

知乎上看到的一段很搞笑的话：
苏联海军的作战思想是：
把船开出去 ，
把导弹打光，
然后游回来。

俄罗斯海军就是一个掩护核潜艇发射洲际导弹的挡箭牌而已。

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## terranMarine

Chinese and Russian Navy performing military drill in SCS sends a heavy weight warning to US and Japan. This is exactly what we need. US and it's European stooges trying to bring Russia down with sanctions ain't gonna succeed with China's economic assistance and vice versa with Russia coming to China's aid in the SCS man o man this is a huge slap in their face.

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## TaiShang

BRICSFTW said:


> Uncle Sam wont be happy with that.



I guess the entire point is to make Uncle unhappy - although, officially, it is not directed at anybody.

What I wonder most is how the lil' countries will react to it. They will ask Uncle for yet another innocent passage?

China and Russia's interests and strategies are being aligned in the Pacific and Eurasia.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Logical progression really.

Indeed not directed at any party at all.

Chinese navy went to Black Sea.

Logical that Rus navy comes to Chinese waters be ECS or SCS.

A comprehensive and productive partnership between the two is good for peace and stability.

They should invite more friendly countries for such excercises.

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## yusheng

China don't want to bullyrag small countries , especially neighbours, but the nature changed when they wanted to employ US to get the benefits from China. then their only fate is cannon fodder .

in fact, the Philippinese and Vietnamese are smart enough to see through the US tricks, i just worry Japan and Taiwan province will do the silly job.

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## Chinese-Dragon

China-Russia-Pakistan cooperation is always the dream.

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## cnleio

U.S - China - Russia, making the SCS dispute more interesting. Each doing their own business in SCS：

1. China building artificial islands (claim to SCS)
2. U.S show to Vietnam/ Philippines (against China)
3. Russia show to American (with China)

Top3 powers playing game in SCS, *welcome to the earth ~! *

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## The Eagle

The dream of China-Pak-Russia is about to come true and for all, this is not a power projection or pointed to anyone but it is the same practice that every country adopts around the world with friendly neighbors and countries. The drastic change in geopolitics and regional security threats, it is the need of time to come with solutions and arrangements that no threat may ever dare to bully. As per another prospective, it is always good to learn from each other for the growth of own as it is the first rule, Self Benefits. Everything is possible in diplomacy yet needs a good practice and approach with all information about the friend and foe. 

These drills are very well timed and surely are not pointed out to any nation. Military drills are not new to anyone around especially in times where the threat is trying to reach at the doorsteps of the one.

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## terranMarine

Didn't a Viet here posted an article from the Diplomat titled with Russia telling China to buzz off in SCS ??? 
With this military drill announcement i just don't know what to say anymore  fact speaks for itself

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Chinese-Dragon said:


> China-Russia-Pakistan cooperation is always the dream.



In old days everyone could become a Mandrin. From every social class....it was pure merit.
One of exames was to be a master Go player.

A global game of Go before you good eyes, my friend.

Enjoy and connect the dots.

I know you can.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

The Chinese Defense Ministry announced Thursday that China and Russia will conduct joint naval exercises in the disputed South China Sea in September despite a recent international tribunal ruling that rejected Beijing’s claims to the strategic waterway.

Defense Ministry spokesman Senior Col. Yang Yujun called the drills “routine” at a news conference and vowed they were not directed at any countries.

The planned exercises will be the first joint drills in the South China Sea between China and Russia. The two nations, who were once communist rivals, have forged a partnership aimed at countering pressure from the U.S. and its allies over their military activities.

“This is a routine exercise between the two armed forces, aimed at strengthening the developing China-Russia strategic cooperative partnership,” Yang said. “The exercise is not directed against third parties.”

The joint drills will also be the first scheduled in the South China Sea since the Permanent Court of Arbitration’s July 12 ruling in The Hague, Netherlands, that nullified China’s territorial and maritime claims to virtually the entire waterway. The case was brought by the Philippines over China’s claims and dealt a huge blow to Beijing.

China has refused to abide by what it considers an invalid and illegitimate ruling.

Moscow and Beijing, both of which signed a massive natural gas deal in 2014 as part of a growing energy partnership, held joint naval exercises in the East China Sea for the first time in 2014, and conducted their first ever drills in European waters in May 2015. Later that year, both countries carried out exercises in the Sea of Japan.

China’s Defense Ministry also confirmed Thursday that it would move forward with anti-missile system tests in response to South Korea’s decision to employ an advanced U.S. anti-missile system.

The U.S. and South Korea announced last month that the two countries would deploy a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense unit, known as the THAAD system. China cautioned the system would destabilize security in the region.

“To develop suitable capabilities for missile defense is necessary for China to maintain its national security,” Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said. “It will improve the self-defense capability of China and is not targeting any specific country and will not affect international strategic stability.”

------------------
We're not targeting 3th countries , next we will do in Indian Ocean and caribbean sea.

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## shhh

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> The Chinese Defense Ministry announced Thursday that China and Russia will conduct joint naval exercises in the disputed South China Sea in September despite a recent international tribunal ruling that rejected Beijing’s claims to the strategic waterway.
> 
> Defense Ministry spokesman Senior Col. Yang Yujun called the drills “routine” at a news conference and vowed they were not directed at any countries.
> 
> The planned exercises will be the first joint drills in the South China Sea between China and Russia. The two nations, who were once communist rivals, have forged a partnership aimed at countering pressure from the U.S. and its allies over their military activities.
> 
> “This is a routine exercise between the two armed forces, aimed at strengthening the developing China-Russia strategic cooperative partnership,” Yang said. “The exercise is not directed against third parties.”
> 
> The joint drills will also be the first scheduled in the South China Sea since the Permanent Court of Arbitration’s July 12 ruling in The Hague, Netherlands, that nullified China’s territorial and maritime claims to virtually the entire waterway. The case was brought by the Philippines over China’s claims and dealt a huge blow to Beijing.
> 
> China has refused to abide by what it considers an invalid and illegitimate ruling.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing, both of which signed a massive natural gas deal in 2014 as part of a growing energy partnership, held joint naval exercises in the East China Sea for the first time in 2014, and conducted their first ever drills in European waters in May 2015. Later that year, both countries carried out exercises in the Sea of Japan.
> 
> China’s Defense Ministry also confirmed Thursday that it would move forward with anti-missile system tests in response to South Korea’s decision to employ an advanced U.S. anti-missile system.
> 
> The U.S. and South Korea announced last month that the two countries would deploy a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense unit, known as the THAAD system. China cautioned the system would destabilize security in the region.
> 
> “To develop suitable capabilities for missile defense is necessary for China to maintain its national security,” Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said. “It will improve the self-defense capability of China and is not targeting any specific country and will not affect international strategic stability.”
> 
> ------------------
> We're not targeting 3th countries , next we will do in Indian Ocean and caribbean sea.



It feels so good when someone gives a middle finger to the so called super power.
It feels even better when they are our best friend.

Way to go China!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

China and Russia learn to reciprocate and defense other's interest instead of sit idle and keep watching US to play divide and conquer game, it's not China's interest to see Russia down nor Russia's interest to see China's down. China should help Russia on European side and Russia should help China on SCS, both can help each other to deter against Japan-US military alliance...only future will tell how far they will go together.

The best formula for China Russia long last relation is not sit idle and watch the other side fall



Shaheer ul haq said:


> It feels so good when someone gives a middle finger to the so called super power.
> It feels even better when they are our best friend.
> 
> Way to go China!



I propose Pakistan-China-Russia to do military exercise in Indian Ocean..

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## ebrahym

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> The Chinese Defense Ministry announced Thursday that China and Russia will conduct joint naval exercises in the disputed South China Sea in September despite a recent international tribunal ruling that rejected Beijing’s claims to the strategic waterway.
> 
> Defense Ministry spokesman Senior Col. Yang Yujun called the drills “routine” at a news conference and vowed they were not directed at any countries.
> 
> The planned exercises will be the first joint drills in the South China Sea between China and Russia. The two nations, who were once communist rivals, have forged a partnership aimed at countering pressure from the U.S. and its allies over their military activities.
> 
> “This is a routine exercise between the two armed forces, aimed at strengthening the developing China-Russia strategic cooperative partnership,” Yang said. “The exercise is not directed against third parties.”
> 
> The joint drills will also be the first scheduled in the South China Sea since the Permanent Court of Arbitration’s July 12 ruling in The Hague, Netherlands, that nullified China’s territorial and maritime claims to virtually the entire waterway. The case was brought by the Philippines over China’s claims and dealt a huge blow to Beijing.
> 
> China has refused to abide by what it considers an invalid and illegitimate ruling.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing, both of which signed a massive natural gas deal in 2014 as part of a growing energy partnership, held joint naval exercises in the East China Sea for the first time in 2014, and conducted their first ever drills in European waters in May 2015. Later that year, both countries carried out exercises in the Sea of Japan.
> 
> China’s Defense Ministry also confirmed Thursday that it would move forward with anti-missile system tests in response to South Korea’s decision to employ an advanced U.S. anti-missile system.
> 
> The U.S. and South Korea announced last month that the two countries would deploy a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense unit, known as the THAAD system. China cautioned the system would destabilize security in the region.
> 
> “To develop suitable capabilities for missile defense is necessary for China to maintain its national security,” Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said. “It will improve the self-defense capability of China and is not targeting any specific country and will not affect international strategic stability.”
> 
> ------------------
> We're not targeting 3th countries , next we will do in Indian Ocean and caribbean sea.


I guess our chinese brothers feel now they should not have broke up with soviets ....... nevertheless Russia has just entered SCS .... big win for china



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I propose Pakistan-China-Russia to do military exercise in Indian Ocean..


ruskies in Pakistan .......... would that not be a spectacle ....... but india still have a leverage over them

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## shhh

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China and Russia learn to reciprocate and defense other's interest instead of sit idle and keep watching US to play divide and conquer game, it's not China's interest to see Russia down nor Russia's interest to see China's down. China should help Russia on European side and Russia should help China on SCS, both can help each other to deter against Japan-US military alliance...only future will tell how far they will go together.
> 
> The best formula for China Russia long last relation is not sit idle and watch the other side fall
> 
> 
> 
> I propose Pakistan-China-Russia to do military exercise in Indian Ocean..



I wish Arabs learned from you guys.

Yeah that military exercise is really going to put fire in someone's a$$

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

a_b said:


> I guess our chinese brothers feel now they should not have broke up with soviets ....... nevertheless Russia has just entered SCS .... big win for china
> 
> ruskies in Pakistan .......... would that not be a spectacle ....... but india still have a leverage over them



Broken up at that period of time was out of necessity, the relation was bad, China didn't want to be seen at second class communist...but Now we stand on our feet, a new Sino-Russia relation is base on equal, common interest and mutual respect which not like Japan that is subordinate to US.

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## ebrahym

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Broken up at that period of time was out of necessity, the relation was bad, China didn't want to be seen at second class communist


but if that would not have happened ...... much would have been different


Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Japan that is subordinate to US


cant argue
but Japanese are trying hard to get rid of them ...... people are protesting more against US .......... they have been mistreated bu US and were forced to Apologize for 70 years for being victims of absurd dream ......... no doubt they were naughty in past but they have paid much......... plus the japanese cars specially their cost is terrorism ....... bring down your cost or atleast start assembly plants in pakistan

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

a_b said:


> but if that would not have happened ...... much would have been different
> 
> cant argue
> but Japanese are trying hard to get rid of them ...... people are protesting more against US .......... they have been mistreated bu US and were forced to Apologize for 70 years for being victims of absurd dream ......... no doubt they were naughty in past but they have paid much......... plus the japanese cars specially their cost is terrorism ....... bring down your cost or atleast start assembly plants in pakistan



I dare to say if there was no Sino-Soviet split, Soviet would still exist and China might not be today world second economy socio-capitalist...China will certainly not let communist brothers down...and Eastern European communist would not fallen like domino into Western favor.

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## ebrahym

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I dare to say if there was no Sino-Soviet split, Soviet would still exist and China might not be today world second economy socio-capitalist...China will certainly not let communist brothers down...and Eastern European communist would not fallen like domino into Western favor.


but the fact is it did happen ........... however we can expect a new "Eurasia" from our frandz in the north


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

a_b said:


> but the fact is it did happen ........... however we can expect a new "Eurasia" from our frandz in the north



The pass is the pass, China and Russia today realized that their need each other more than before, EuroAsia is massive continental land that contain most population of the world, Both can complement each other, Russia has the resource, we have skill labor and money to invest and there is huge market out there.

who you mean frandz in the north.. Afghanistan?

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## ebrahym

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> who you mean frandz in the north.. Afghanistan?


no chinese and russinas ...... from the map both of them are on north of us


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

a_b said:


> no chinese and russinas ...... from the map both of them are on north of us



Oh lol...I first thought Afghanistan

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## ebrahym

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Oh lol...I first thought Afghanistan


they are more like on the west its just Wakhan corridor ............... god i wish we had wakhan corridor


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

a_b said:


> they are more like on the west its just Wakhan corridor ............... god i wish we had wakhan corridor



Don't worry, even without that corridor, you guys are welcome to use China land to access central Asia, with CPEC corridor, China and Pakistan are bind to have even close relation.

Didn't see that there is one thread exist, MOD please merge it into the other one.

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## ebrahym

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Don't worry, even without that corridor, you guys are welcome to use China land to access central Asia, with CPEC corridor, China and Pakistan are bind to have even close relation

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I dare to say if there was no Sino-Soviet split, Soviet would still exist and China might not be today world second economy socio-capitalist...China will certainly not let communist brothers down...and Eastern European communist would not fallen like domino into Western favor.



The split turned out well eventually i have to say, after SU was no more the US had no use of China so the arms embargo was the best option to defeat China after Democracy Rally failed in Beijing. What the US never calculated was that Russia and China joining hands again. The rest is history

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Shaheer ul haq said:


> I wish Arabs learned from you guys.
> 
> Yeah that military exercise is really going to put fire in someone's a$$



China sure can help Arabs to fix this problem, China might be the newbie to play divide and conquer but we certainly know how to unit other nations to common interest but we don't want to let American to think that we're forming alliance against them,a strong Arab united nation mean US is over in middle east.

The last time China unite Africans nations to for a summit has shocked US up until now that has prompt US to create an African command...LOL.









terranMarine said:


> The split turned out well eventually i have to say, after SU was no more the US had no use of China so the arms embargo was the best option to defeat China after Democracy Rally failed in Beijing. What the US never calculated was that Russia and China joining hands again. The rest is history



The biggest American mistake is that they think that Chinese will be submissive like Japanese, that we will to comply to their demands and do as they said , when they realized that was not work out as they expected (恼羞成怒) and here we're today.

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> The biggest American mistake is that they think that Chinese will be submissive like Japanese, that we will to comply to their demands and do as they said , when they realized that was not work out as they expected (恼羞成怒) and here we're today.


Don't forget the father of chinese rocketry

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## shhh

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China sure can help Arabs to fix this problem, China might be the newbie to play divide and conquer but we certainly know how to unit other nations to common interest but we don't want to let American to think that we're forming alliance against them,a strong Arab united nation mean US is over in middle east.
> 
> The last time China unite Africans nations to for a summit has shocked US up until now that has prompt US to create an African command...LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest American mistake is that they think that Chinese will be submissive like Japanese, that we will to comply to their demands and do as they said , when they realized that was not work out as they expected (恼羞成怒) and here we're today.



Buddy that is not the problem with Arabs, the problem is that they "do not want to unite".
Even Pakistan can unite them, if they were willing to do it.
The mess they are in is created by themselves, yes USA did all that, but they let it happen.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Shaheer ul haq said:


> Buddy that is not the problem with Arabs, the problem is that they "do not want to unite".
> Even Pakistan can unite them, if they were willing to do it.
> The mess they are in is created by themselves, yes USA did all that, but they let it happen.



Why they don't want to be unite? that is illogic



terranMarine said:


> Don't forget the father of chinese rocketry



Indeed, Stupid Americans like bash China and bashed Chinese people, when US has bad relation with China, they held American Chinese accountable, you wouldn't be surprise there will be more like Qian Xuesen to surprise US...LMAO

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## Echo_419

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> The Chinese Defense Ministry announced Thursday that China and Russia will conduct joint naval exercises in the disputed South China Sea in September despite a recent international tribunal ruling that rejected Beijing’s claims to the strategic waterway.
> 
> Defense Ministry spokesman Senior Col. Yang Yujun called the drills “routine” at a news conference and vowed they were not directed at any countries.
> 
> The planned exercises will be the first joint drills in the South China Sea between China and Russia. The two nations, who were once communist rivals, have forged a partnership aimed at countering pressure from the U.S. and its allies over their military activities.
> 
> “This is a routine exercise between the two armed forces, aimed at strengthening the developing China-Russia strategic cooperative partnership,” Yang said. “The exercise is not directed against third parties.”
> 
> The joint drills will also be the first scheduled in the South China Sea since the Permanent Court of Arbitration’s July 12 ruling in The Hague, Netherlands, that nullified China’s territorial and maritime claims to virtually the entire waterway. The case was brought by the Philippines over China’s claims and dealt a huge blow to Beijing.
> 
> China has refused to abide by what it considers an invalid and illegitimate ruling.
> 
> Moscow and Beijing, both of which signed a massive natural gas deal in 2014 as part of a growing energy partnership, held joint naval exercises in the East China Sea for the first time in 2014, and conducted their first ever drills in European waters in May 2015. Later that year, both countries carried out exercises in the Sea of Japan.
> 
> China’s Defense Ministry also confirmed Thursday that it would move forward with anti-missile system tests in response to South Korea’s decision to employ an advanced U.S. anti-missile system.
> 
> The U.S. and South Korea announced last month that the two countries would deploy a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense unit, known as the THAAD system. China cautioned the system would destabilize security in the region.
> 
> “To develop suitable capabilities for missile defense is necessary for China to maintain its national security,” Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said. “It will improve the self-defense capability of China and is not targeting any specific country and will not affect international strategic stability.”
> 
> ------------------
> We're not targeting 3th countries , next we will do in Indian Ocean and caribbean sea.



Perhaps we will excersie with you in Indian ocean


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## shhh

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Why they don't want to be unite? that is illogic



Exactly! they are illogical fools, thats why they are hated, why do you think ME is in such a mess, they have very stupid and personal issues with each other.


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## oprih

What a lovely day!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Echo_419 said:


> Perhaps we will excersie with you in Indian ocean



I certainly wish this day to be happen

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia ‘semi-alliance’ to launch drills in S.China Sea *
By Yang Sheng
Published: 2016-7-29 0:23:00 

* China, Russia stand together in face of a more assertive US *

The Chinese Ministry of Defense announced Thursday that China and Russia will launch a joint military drill in the South China Sea in September, *a move observers say shows the two countries have formed a "semi-alliance" in the face of an increasingly assertive US.*

"This is a routine drill between two military forces aimed at strengthening the developing China-Russia strategic cooperative partnership," said Yang Yujun, spokesperson for the Ministry of National Defense during a regular monthly press conference in Beijing on Thursday.

Even though Yang said the exercise is not directed against third parties, *experts consider that the choice of location and the timing show the drill is aimed specifically at countering the increasing US military presence in the Asia-Pacific.* 

Shi Yinhong, director of the Center for American Studies at the Renmin University of China, told the Global Times that "due to the great pressure Russia receives from the West in Europe, Moscow is becoming more motivated to having deeper strategic cooperation with Beijing at this moment. The drill is an obvious example in the military area."

Shi believes there is no denying that the US is the major strategic rival of both China and Russia. Under pressure from the US, China and Russia are moving their bilateral relationship to a semi-alliance level, Shi said.

*Reinforce global stability
*
China and Russia are both permanent members of the UN Security Council with veto powers. The two countries have cooperated on many international issues in the past, including the Syria crisis and nuclear issue in both Iran and North Korea. 

On June 26, Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a joint statement in Beijing which aims to reinforce global strategic stability. Experts believe that the military drill in the South China Sea in September is an action based on that statement.

*The joint statement makes clear that China and Russia want strategic stability. As both countries believe the US is encroaching on the geopolitical balance in the region, it is only natural for the two nations to stand together, Shi said.* 

Song Zhongping, a Beijing-based military expert, said the drill's location also shows a strong signal to countries that are trying to get involved in the South China Sea issue militarily.

In 2015, the China-Russia joint military drill was in the Sea of Japan; in 2014, in the East China Sea. 

"It's very clear that both countries will pick a hot spot region to launch a drill … this year China and Russia both agreed that to have the drill in the South China Sea has a specific political aim," Song said 

*Timing coincidental
*
In September 2016, the G20 Summit will be held in Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province, while the ASEAN Summit will also take place in Vientiane Laos, but experts stressed that the timing of the drill has nothing to do with these events.

Rather, said Song, it is based on the season and weather conditions rather than diplomatic reasons. In September, conditions in the South China Sea are ideal for the exercises. 

Shi believes that "Chinese and Russian military forces will avoid the G20 Summit due to the sensitiveness of the timing." 

On the specific military aims of the drill, Song considers that the two navies will focus on traditional naval battle craft, such as anti-submarine and anti-aircraft missions, but the drill will be bigger in scale than last year's. 

*Infrastructure on South China Sea islands might also be used during the drill, Song said. *

"The Yongxing Island airport in the Xisha Islands can be used for military aircraft, but others in the Nansha Islands are not ready yet," he noted.

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## TaiShang

China, Russia voice serious concern over THAAD deployment in South Korea
Source:Xinhua Published: 2016-7-29

China and Russia on Thursday voiced serious concern over the deployment of the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) in South Korea. 

At a fourth meeting on Northeast Asia security held in Moscow, Chinese Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs Kong Xuanyou and Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov noted *that such a unilateral and non-constructive action taken by the US brings negative effects to the strategic balance, security and stability of the region and the world. *

The deployment of the advanced US missile defense system in South Korea is just a part of Washington's global anti-missile scheme, which clearly contradicts with the aims claimed by the US and South Korean governments, the two officials noted. 

Expressing the firm opposition to issues relevant to the THAAD deployment, both sides agreed to enhance coordination in order to better cope with the negative developments, also to protect the strategic security of China, Russia and other regional countries. 

*Under the comprehensive strategic partnership, China and Russia would further strengthen communications and coordinations based on the joint statement on strengthening global strategic stability, signed in June by leaders of the two countries, with a view to protect each other's interests, especially the interest in strategic stability, through the most reliable and effective ways. *

Kong and Morgulov also said the two countries would continue pushing forward the settlement of the nuclear issue of the Korean Peninsula through dialogues and negotiations, in particular the irreplaceable platform of Six Party Talks. 

To realize denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, it is necessary to reduce military and political tensions on the peninsula, to downscale the military drills held in the region and thus to build mutual trust, the two officials added. 

They also urged both South Korea and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) to resume dialogues to achieve inter-Korean reconciliation and create a sound environment for development on the Korean Peninsula. 

Earlier this month, Seoul and Washington announced the agreement to install one THAAD battery in Seongju, a county some 250 km southeast of the South Korean capital city, by the end of next year, as one way to counter the nuclear and missile threats posed by the DPRK. 

China has expressed strong dissatisfaction with and resolute opposition to the THAAD deployment in South Korean territory as it damaged China's security interests and broke a strategic balance in the region, while Russia indicated a military response by deploying a missile unit in the Far Eastern region.

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## Hamartia Antidote

It would be a big achievement just to get the Admiral Kuznetsov to the SCS. I don't even think it has ever seen the Indian or Pacific Oceans. The battlecruiser _Admiral Nakhimov _is being repaired. so with their big ships out I guess they could send a regular cruiser like the Varyag.






light cruiser Varyag in San Francisco


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## cnleio

Congratulate U.S ~ push China to Russia together & push Russia to China together.

Well done, Uncle SAM !

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## ahojunk

*China's accession to TIR to boost 'Belt and Road' projects*
By Yuan Can (People's Daily Online) 17:37, July 28, 2016







China has become the 70th country to ratify the United Nation's Transports Internationaux Routiers (TIR) Convention, the global standard for international freight customs transit.

The application of the TIR system will provide China with the opportunity to unify its exports under a single, simplified transit procedure to EU countries for all modes of transport. Chinese freight containers will travel all the way to Ireland without being opened for customs checks. The international guarantee scheme is a first step toward putting the legal framework of the Belt and Road Initiative into action.

"China’s accession to the TIR Convention will open new, efficient and faster transport opportunities and transport routes between China and Europe. It can become a real game changer for international trade and is a strong contribution to the Chinese vision for 'One Road, One Belt,'" said United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) executive secretary Christian Friis Bach.

China's accession to TIR is closely related to the country's promotion of the Belt and Road Initiative, said Zhang Guihong, executive dean of the U.N. Studies Center of Fudan University, in an interview with thepaper.cn.

Delivering his keynote speech at the Boao Asia Forum on March 29, 2015, Chinese President Xi Jinping vowed that the "One Belt, One Road" project is to generate over $2.5 trillion in trade within 10 years.

The average travel period for Chinese freight containers from China to Europe will be shortened from the current 28 days to just one or two weeks, said UNECE spokesperson, Jean Rodriguez.

The United Nations Secretary-General has confirmed that the TIR Convention will come into effect in China on Jan. 5, 2017.

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## Gibbs

Great thread.. Tks @ahojunk .. Global economic and political power is returning to the east, It's just a matter of time, History is just repeating itself.

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## ahojunk

_This is indeed good news. More than 2,000 already._

--------
*2,000-passage benchmark passed by China-Europe freight train service*
(People's Daily Online) 17:38, July 22, 2016


Equipped with 47 carriages carrying 94 containers, the X8024 Asia-Europe freight train departed for Madrid from the city of Yiwu on July 21. The departure was a significant one, as it brought the number of China-Europe train journeys to the milestone of 2,000.





Between the departure of the first train and the 500th, four years passed; between number 501 and number 1,000, the time was reduced to a mere seven months. From 1,001 to 1,500? Just five months. And only three and a half months passed between 1,501 and 2000.

In the past several years, China Railway Corporation (CRC) has viewed China-Europe passages as an important signifier. The company considered those numbers while planning its One Belt, One Road initiative, and also while improving communication with local governments along the lines.

The number and scope of China-Europe freight train service are both growing. In 2015, the number of trains doing China-Europe routes more than doubled. In the first half of 2016, year-on-year growth was 150 percent. In the new route map released on May 15, 13 lines had been added. The *number of lines is now 39 in total*, which significantly expands the area that was previously covered. The trains travel to eight different European countries and over a dozen cities.

To ensure timeliness, CRC contracted a variety of experts to supervise container allocation, general operations, collection and transfers. As a result, the current on-time rate is nearly 100 percent.

The cost of logistics keeps decreasing, and CRC offers a preferential policy for freight. The corporation sent research teams to Poland, Germany and Lithuania to learn about overseas commodity supplies. Trains have also begun delivering commodities like clothing, wine, furniture and automobile parts.

As operation of the China-Europe passages is maturing, these routes are becoming a safe, fast and environmentally friendly option. Governments and corporations are both taking notice, and growth is unlikely to slow any time soon.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

@ahojunk Thanks for keeping us posted on OBOR developments.

The most important initiative in the world. Yet enjoys so little attention here on the PDF.

Keep up the good news coming.

*OBOR = Harmony under the Heavens*

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## TaiShang

Sinopakfriend said:


> @ahojunk Thanks for keeping us posted on OBOR developments.
> 
> The most important initiative in the world. Yet enjoys so little attention here on the PDF.
> 
> Keep up the good news coming.
> 
> *OBOR = Harmony under the Heavens*



Academic research on OBOR is just taking hold. I can tell by first hand experience (working on a research project on OBOR with my supervisor now) that there is a lot of research opportunity for young and aspiring researchers who wish to have a place in academia.

Rise of new powers creates new social realities. Researchers can seek and develop new theories from them. Times of crisis and explosive growth/change always offer great offerings to philosophers.

We may look at the OBOR from such perspective, as well.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> Academic research on OBOR is just taking hold. I can tell by first hand experience (working on a research project on OBOR with my supervisor now) that there is a lot of research opportunity for young and aspiring researchers who wish to have a place in academia.
> 
> Rise of new powers creates new social realities. Researchers can seek and develop new theories from them. Times of crisis and explosive growth/change always offer great offerings to philosophers.
> 
> We may look at the OBOR from such perspective, as well.



We, indeed, need to look at OBOR from a philosophic perspective.

It is such a vastly different perspective/paradigm that directly challenges the emperial dynamic of last 500 years.

Win-win paradigm has never been offered before in history in such a formate or at such a scale.

Community of Prosperity is directly linked to the Harmony under the Heavens.

A proper dialectic / a structured discourse will produce a rich framework of thinking...and of course policy development as well.

Young people with organised mind, as yourself, must study and develop ideas much further.

What I miss in the OBOR paradigm/project is a compelling narrative. 

We lack communication skils.

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## yantong1980

This is not about 'bad boy Kim' anymore, SK know this, this is geopolitical provocation. What China answer?

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## yantong1980

Glad to hear that, this is going to be one h*ll of message.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

SK is rather unwise to let itself be used like this.

The US is a guest. China, Russia and Korea share border.

Have been there for enternity and will there for equally long.

The US will leave one day. 

What is SK or JP are going to do then?

Those who follow the Way, act wisely.

SK is becoming a mystery these days.

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## terranMarine

yantong1980 said:


> This is not about 'bad boy Kim' anymore, SK know this, this is geopolitical provocation. What China answer?



South Korea shall be punished, China will have to look at the options on the table e.g. trade could be influenced or deployment of more military equipment facing SK. One way or the other China must make the South Koreans feel the pain.

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## Three_Kingdoms

THAAD is against the national security of both China and Russia so we have to respond to the imminent and direct threat without hesitation and as a team

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## xunzi

Once we finished the SCS development, Russian ships are welcome to visit to rest in the beauty of SCS modern island.

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## Beidou2020

A Chinese guided missile destroyer takes part in a week-long China-Russia navy exercise int the East China Sea off Shanghai in 2014. Photo: AP

The alarm should have sounded a couple of months ago when Chinese commentators began quoting Vladimir Putin, that "if a fight is inevitable, go and fight first".

But warning bells are ringing loudly now after China declared this week Russia will send warships into the disputed South China Sea to conduct joint navy exercises.

The startling development will bring yet another great power into what has fast become a global flashpoint right in Australia's neighbourhood.

And you shouldn't be surprised that Australia is seen very much as a player in this growing dispute.

Just have a read of a firecracker editorial published in China's state-run Global Times on Saturday, calling for "revenge" after the decision by Foreign Minister Julie Bishop last week to join Japan and the US in calling for Beijing to respect international law.

"If Australia steps into the South China Sea waters, it will be an ideal target for China to warn and strike," the paper thundered.





A Chinese missile frigate Yuncheng launches an anti-ship missile during a military exercise in the waters near south China's Hainan Island. Photo: AP

Australia is not even a 'paper tiger,' it's only a 'paper cat' at best."

How much you take the Global Times as delivering a not-too-subtle official threat on behalf of the authorities in Beijing - and some in Canberra will interpret it that way - or just a shrill bluff really depends on how you judge China's intentions.

One thing is certain, as defence hardheads well know, is that if China really did think Australia was no more significant than a "paper cat", they wouldn't feel the need to say so.

Australia has resisted calls to follow the US lead and dispatch its own navy ships inside the sensitive 12-mile zone around China's artificial islands, just to show Canberra will not recognise any claims to sovereignty.

It was China's sweeping claim, known as the "nine dash line", that was declared illegal last month by an international tribunal.






But back to Russia, why Putin might feel the need to send his navy to this far distant waterway right now, and how much more complicated this dispute might soon become.

As Marina Tsirbas from the National Security College in Canberra observes, Russia is looking for any excuse to give the US a "poke in the eye".

Remember Putin made a dramatic intervention into the Syrian conflict last year by sending Russian fighter jets to bolster the failing regime of Bashar al Assad, much to the annoyance of the White House.

This promised naval deployment of Russian ships to the South China Sea also comes as a surprise, although Moscow has always insisted it should be seen as an "intrinsic" Pacific power, with a longstanding navy port in Vladivostok.

Russia has conducted navy drills with China elsewhere, and made a point of dispatching a small fleet of powerful warships off the coast of Australia when Putin's came to Brisbane in the "shirtfront" days after MH17 was shot down.

"China and Russia increasingly find themselves backing one another up when one of them is in confrontation with the West," says Michael Wesley, a foreign affairs specialist with the Australian National University.

Wesley doubts the two powers will forge an alliance - "they are not going to go to war for each other" - but may have moved beyond mere ties of convenience.

Yet Russia is not the first country to hold navy drills with China.

The Royal Australian Navy conducted live fire exercises with the Chinese navy a couple of years ago, drills that admittedly occurred in waters much further north, outside the South China Sea.

How significant this latest Russian intervention turns out to be really depends on the warships sent, how long they stay, and what they do.

A spokesman for Defence Minister Marise Payne said: "we expect that all parties will conduct themselves in accordance with international law."

Russia's presence might be more for symbolism than practical support, but either way, the crowd on the waters is growing.

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## Beidou2020

Beijing and Moscow have agreed that they will "proactively consider strengthening bilateral coordinating measures" to tackle the threat posed by the US and the Republic of Korea's plan to deploy a powerful antimissile system on the Korean Peninsula.

The consensus was reached during the fourth China-Russia Northeast Asia security consultation in Mosow on Thursday, according to a news release of the Foreign Ministry on Friday.

Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs Kong Xuanyou and Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov co-chaired the meeting.

Prior to the meeting, China had expressed strong dissatisfaction with and resolute opposition to the THAAD deployment in ROK territory as it damaged China's security interests and broke the strategic balance in the region, while Russia indicated a military response by deploying a missile unit in the Far Eastern region. 

At the meeting, both sides voiced "serious concerns" over the advancing plan of deploying the THAAD antimissile system in the ROK.

The two countries agreed that the US unilaterally developing and deploying strategic antimissile systems "is not a constructive action" and will "exert negative influence upon the strategic balance, security and stability in the world and in the region".

China and Russia agreed that a necessary condition for denuclearizing the peninsula is to lower the military and political tension there.

Efforts that will lower such tension include downsizing the scale of military drills taking place in this region as well as building an atmosphere of mutual trust among the parties concerned.

They also urged both the ROK and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) to resume dialogues to achieve inter-Korean reconciliation and create a sound environment for development on the Korean Peninsula.

Earlier this month, Seoul and Washington announced the agreement to install one THAAD battery in Seongju, a county some 250 km southeast of the ROK capital city, by the end of next year, as one way to counter the nuclear and missile threats posed by the DPRK.

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## ahojunk

At the moment it is all talk and no action by China.

Why can't China tighten some economic and political screws on South Korea?

This will let SK know that China means business.

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## terranMarine

ahojunk said:


> At the moment it is all talk and no action by China.
> 
> Why can't China tighten some economic and political screws on South Korea?
> 
> This will let SK know that China means business.



Perhaps more aid to DPRK ?  One thing is for sure both China and Russia aren't happy about THAAD and there will be response from both nations. Just wait and see what's gonna happen, patience bro

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## AndrewJin

ahojunk said:


> At the moment it is all talk and no action by China.
> 
> Why can't China tighten some economic and political screws on South Korea?
> 
> This will let SK know that China means business.


Did you see the sales number of Samsung mobile phones in China?
It's like a genocide.
And they have to transfer more core technology to China, building more high-tech factories.

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## ahojunk

AndrewJin said:


> Did you see the sales number of Samsung mobile phones in China?
> It's like a genocide.
> And they have to transfer more core technology to China, building more high-tech factories.


.
Just impacting only Samsung is not enough.

Being nice is not good, as SK may take it as a sign of weakness!

China should tighten more political, economic and social "screws" against SK.

By "killing the chicken to scare the monkeys", Japan will also take notice!

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

SK had been advised behind the scenes to be wise and avoid provocations at the behest of trouble makers.

Sadly SK has not listen to good sense.

The joint Sino-russian missile excercises and China disclosing its BMDS are warning to SK to back off.

I fear SK is going the wrong road.

If tolerated it will set example of weakeness.

China will try to solve this through friendly diplomacy first and far most.

Otherwise, China will have to visit its toolset to find a proper response.

Regardless of which approach is chosen...there MUST be a robust Action by China.

Time for Non-Action, sadly, is over.

It is disturbing to see the trouble makers breeding only disharmony and chaos.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Sinopakfriend said:


> SK had been advised behind the scenes to be wise and avoid provocations at the behest of trouble makers.
> 
> Sadly SK has not listen to good sense.
> 
> The joint Sino-russian missile excercises and China disclosing its BMDS are warning to SK to back off.
> 
> I fear SK is going the wrong road.
> 
> If tolerated it will set example of weakeness.
> 
> China will try to solve this through friendly diplomacy first and far most.
> 
> Otherwise, China will have to visit its toolset to find a proper response.
> 
> Regardless of which approach is chosen...there MUST be a robust Action by China.
> 
> Time for Non-Action, sadly, is over.
> 
> It is disturbing to see the trouble makers breeding only disharmony and chaos.



China was very clear, we wont allow any one making trouble in Korea peninsula to threaten the security or balance of the region, it's China's red line similar to what US draw it red line in Cuba region. I don't know what China gonna do but China certainly wont sit idle, we all will stay tune to see future development.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China was very clear, we wont allow any one making trouble in Korea peninsula to threaten the security or balance of the region, it's China's red line similar to what US draw it red line in Cuba region. I don't know what China gonna do but China certainly wont sit idle, we all will stay tune to see future development.



Exactly.

If we loose an inch now we shall loose a mile tomorrow.

Chinese policy of friendship and co-development has been taken a weakness by the trouble makers and their puppets. 

Be it NE or south...

Time for Clear Action.

At the same time we must remain with the Way and not fall into traps set for China both in the NE and south.

PLAN must also accelerate it modernisation with more potent platforms.

It is a multi-dimensional struggle now. 

Many fronts opening at the same time.

The Dragon is mysterious, full of surprises.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Sinopakfriend said:


> Exactly.
> 
> If we loose an inch now we shall loose a mile tomorrow.
> 
> Chinese policy of friendship and co-development has been taken a weakness by the trouble makers and their puppets.
> 
> Be it NE or south...
> 
> Time for Clear Action.
> 
> At the same time we must remain with the Way and not fall into traps set for China both in the NE and south.
> 
> PLAN must also accelerate it modernisation with more potent platforms.
> 
> It is a multi-dimensional struggle now.
> 
> Many fronts opening at the same time.
> 
> The Dragon is mysterious, full of surprises.



China today is not the China of 1950s to mid 1970s which we're isolated from the world, economically bad with no money for our army. As long as China remain the second economic power, 100+ billions on defense mean we will be able to take proper measure and find solution to the threat, without money you can just live with frustration to see enemy at your door step but can't do nothing. The most important for China now is to have a clear and decisive action, do what must be done with the money we earned, missing the window of opportunity will be a set back for China.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China today is not the China of 1950s to mid 1970s which we're isolated from the world, economically bad with no money for our army. As long as China remain the second economic power, 100+ billions on defense mean we will be able to take proper measure and find solution to the threat, without money you can just live with frustration to see enemy at your door step but can't do nothing. The most important for China now is to have a clear and decisive action, do what must be done with the money we earned, missing the window of opportunity will be a set back for China.



You percieve it correctly, my brother.

This is a historic moment which will determine the fate of all asia.

The turning point in global power architecture is at the decision point.

Russia did what it had to do. The empire could do it no harm.

China needs to stand up and be firm.

I am the most pacifist that there is.

Only want to see peace and prosperity.

But the trouble makers need to be contained now.

They have been containing or trying to contain China for centuries.

Now it is time to contain the trouble makers.

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## Beidou2020

My solution is:

1) full scale buildup of the Chinese military.
2) abolish no-first-use nuclear policy.
3) significantly increase nuclear arsenal.
4) develop and deploy Chinese missile defence systems.
5) increase in Chinese military spending to 5% of GDP (the same figure as Russia and Israel).

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beidou2020 said:


> My solution is:
> 
> 1) full scale buildup of the Chinese military.
> 2) abolish no-first-use nuclear policy.
> 3) significantly increase nuclear arsenal.
> 4) develop and deploy Chinese missile defence systems.
> 5) increase in Chinese military spending to 5% of GDP (the same figure as Russia and Israel).



Personally, I think China should only invest on the most pay off solution to the threat, we can't just afford to go full aspect confrontation build up as URSS during the cold war.

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## jhungary

ahojunk said:


> At the moment it is all talk and no action by China.
> 
> Why can't China tighten some economic and political screws on South Korea?
> 
> This will let SK know that China means business.



That's because there are no ledge for china to use against SK, at least not at the level that will hurt China itself. Trade are two way street, you cannot try to "teach" a lesson to some other country without hurting your own.

Do remember this is an internal affair of some other country, there are pretty much nothing China can do without looking like a bully. Hence, there won't be any action against the THAAD deployment.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> That's because there are no ledge for china to use against SK, at least not at the level that will hurt China itself. Trade are two way street, you cannot try to "teach" a lesson to some other country without hurting your own.
> 
> Do remember this is an internal affair of some other country, there are pretty much nothing China can do without looking like a bully. Hence, there won't be any action against the THAAD deployment.



Do you think if China place Radar in Cuba will be considered by American as internal affaire of other country?

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Do you think if China place Radar in Cuba will be considered by American as internal affaire of other country?


China and Russia should be placing nukes in Cuba then they will be talking about threats and not internal affairs of another country.

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## jhungary

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Do you think if China place Radar in Cuba will be considered by American as internal affaire of other country?



But then the American is not someone who purposed "*Peaceful Rise*" unlike China, ain't it?

American like to meddle with people affair, that's what the Chinese have long be criticizing about, and you cannot be doing the same thing and get to criticizing the US, basically, you cannot have the cake and eat it. You gotta choose

P.S. Nobody is stopping China placing radar system or missile defence in Cuba, I mean, that is IF Cuba willing to do it.

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## Three_Kingdoms

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Do you think if China place Radar in Cuba will be considered by American as internal affaire of other country?



Exactly
Simple logic isnt it?

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> But then the American is not someone who purposed "*Peaceful Rise*" unlike China, ain't it?
> 
> American like to meddle with people affair, that's what the Chinese have long be criticizing about, and you cannot be doing the same thing and get to criticizing the US, basically, you cannot have the cake and eat it. You gotta choose
> 
> P.S. Nobody is stopping China placing radar system or missile defence in Cuba, I mean, that is IF Cuba willing to do it.



The peaceful rise is for peaceful time  ,we're not bind with "peaceful rise" commitment to anyone during trouble time LMAO. Of course why US would stop China for doing what it has done the same to other...that will be really undemocratic

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## jhungary

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> The peaceful rise is for peaceful time  ,we're not bind with "peaceful rise" commitment to anyone during trouble time LMAO. Of course why US would stop China for doing what it has done the same to other...that will be really undemocratic



You still don't get it didn't you?

US deployed THAAD in South Korea, that is not something or anything China can do or alter, this is between the government of the United States and South Korea.

China is welcome to develop an Anti-THAAD device (which sounded strange as THAAD is a missile defence, so in effect you are saying China developing anti-anti-missile system), that's your pejorative, I do not honestly think the American can do anything to stop China to develop such a system.

The problem is, you can either choose to call foul or develop an anti-THAAD system, you cannot do both.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> You still don't get it didn't you?
> 
> US deployed THAAD in South Korea, that is not something or anything China can do or alter, this is between the government of the United States and South Korea.
> 
> China is welcome to develop an Anti-THAAD device (which sounded strange as THAAD is a missile defence, so in effect you are saying China developing anti-anti-missile system), that's your pejorative, I do not honestly think the American can do anything to stop China to develop such a system.
> 
> The problem is, you can either choose to call foul or develop an anti-THAAD system, you cannot do both.



What make you think that we can't do anything?  We still can hold back the decision to sanction NK and it will be SK and US nightmare if China and Russia support NK by providing more devastating weapons and provide NK with real time information regarding US and SK army deployment in SK...

And that do not exclude that China and Russia will join hand to install Radar in Cuba, remember Castro is still communist friend.

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What make you think that we can't do anything?  We still can hold back the decision to sanction NK and it will be SK and US nightmare if China and Russia support NK by providing more devastating weapons and provide NK with real time information regarding US and SK army deployment in SK...
> 
> And that do not exclude that China and Russia will join hand to install Radar in Cuba, remember Castro is still communist friend.



IF China and Russia would want to punish SK both will definitely look at the option of giving more military aid to DPRK and there's nothing USA,JP or SK can do about it. I suppose China does not mind giving DPRK some financial assistance either  , but for the record DPRK has already taken counter measures already by moving the Rodong missiles closer to the border  . To add more oil to the heat we will be looking forward DPRK launching more nuclear and missile tests.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

terranMarine said:


> IF China and Russia would want to punish SK both will definitely look at the option of giving more military aid to DPRK and there's nothing USA,JP or SK can do about it. I suppose China does not mind giving DPRK some financial assistance either  , but for the record DPRK has already taken counter measures already by moving the Rodong missiles closer to the border  . To add more oil to the heat we will be looking forward DPRK launching more nuclear and missile tests.



China is still calculating the option to support NK, we just want to make some room for US and SK to make up their mind regarding THAAD. SK will be the most hurt and ultimate loser if China and Russia decide to back NK, not only we can nullify the THAAD threat by providing the appropriate weapon and real time information to NK but SK will never again to gain China favor to deal with NK.

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China is still calculating the option to support NK, we just want to make some room for US and SK to make up their mind regarding THAAD. SK will be the most hurt and ultimate loser if China and Russia decide to back NK, not only we can nullify the THAAD threat by providing the appropriate weapon and real time information to NK but SK will never again to gain China favor to deal with NK.



Indeed, we have plenty of options on the table for dealing with THAAD. If they think they can checkmate both China and Russia with this system they will be in for a nasty surprise coming from our retaliation.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

terranMarine said:


> Indeed, we have plenty of options on the table for dealing with THAAD. If they think they can checkmate both China and Russia with this system they will be in for a nasty surprise coming from our retaliation.



US strategy is to have overwhelming military superioriity over China and Russia that they can feel secure to attack us with impunity but US will likely be first to collapse if enemy can breach in their homeland defense because they will not know how to cope with chaos, death and destruction. Throughout US history, they have never been invaded or massively under enemy bombardment but unlike China and Russia we have lost over millions of lifes during WW2, we know what we will expect if there is a war.

Imagine in the future that technology to get into space will be so cheap, we can weaponized the space and place all kinds of missile just directly over US space, THAAD will never be anymore an issue for China, US can be checkmate this way too

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> US strategy is to have overwhelming military superioriity over China and Russia that they can feel secure to attack us with impunity but US will likely be first to collapse if enemy can breach in their homeland defense because they will not know how to cope with chaos, death and destruction. Throughout US history, they have never been invaded or massively under enemy bombardment but unlike China and Russia we have lost over millions of lifes during WW2, we know what we will expect if there is a war.
> 
> Imagine in the future that technology to get into space will be so cheap, we can weaponized the space and place all kinds of missile just directly over US space, THAAD will never be anymore an issue for China, US can be checkmate this way too



Don't forget we have DPRK too, they will be able to deal with THAAD in a flash should the Yankees wants a war with us. North Koreans don't want China to fall either . As you have mentioned too the ring of fire will be taken into account by us  , imagine the massive tsunamis and volcano eruptions.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

terranMarine said:


> Don't forget we have DPRK too, they will be able to deal with THAAD in a flash should the Yankees wants a war with us. North Koreans don't want China to fall either . As you have mentioned too the ring of fire will be taken into account by us  , imagine the massive tsunamis and volcano eruptions.



Last time I wrote an tectonic bomb to deal with Japan, people complain to the MOD that I wrote a genocide thread and I got banned for 1 month...I don't want to talk the ring of fire or American, Japanese?? and Pinoy will cry to the MOD

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Last time I wrote an tectonic bomb to deal with Japan, people complain to the MOD that I wrote a genocide thread and I got banned for 1 month...I don't want to talk the ring of fire or American, Japanese?? and Pinoy will cry to the MOD


 i know the feeling, i was banned by the Hui Muslim for few weeks because i posted the photo of the humiliated yankees captured by the Iranian forces. I know it's f*cking humiliating to USA.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

C'mon man, please Hui is our blood brother...I don't like anything that harm the unity China or united spirit of Chinese.

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## terranMarine

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> C'mon man, please Hui is our blood brother...I don't like anything that harm the unity China or united spirit of Chinese.


I know I know bro, lets hope he will be more wisely before handing out bans just because some hybrid started to complain. Anyway things are looking good for China, Russia and DPRK when it comes down to chess pieces. But i gotta give it to you a tectonic bomb in JP?  Brilliant. I myself would not hesitate to use our Megaton toys if someone dares to even lay a finger on our Mainland.

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## xunzi

If Kim regime is smart, they fix their internal problem, reform their country following our model to reintegrate with the global economy. Then we will back them up and place military hardware to defend their turf from the Sk-US alliance. This way the strategic balance is maintain. Russia-China, we must continue to encourage NK to follow our policy so we can legitimately place missile defence in NK without having to hear the UN crying about it.

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## Beidou2020

Trying to destroy the China-South Korea relationship is one of the aims of the US. The US will then fill the void left by China and become the most important economic partner for South Korea.

China should avoid falling for the trap set.

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## jhungary

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What make you think that we can't do anything?  We still can hold back the decision to sanction NK and it will be SK and US nightmare if China and Russia support NK by providing more devastating weapons and provide NK with real time information regarding US and SK army deployment in SK...
> 
> And that do not exclude that China and Russia will join hand to install Radar in Cuba, remember Castro is still communist friend.



That's not things you do to stop South Korea from installing the THAAD System, that is just your response to the South Korea installing THAAD system. You can go to trade war with South Korea or increase your aid to North Korea, to try to scare SK off from installing THAAD, *but the ultimate decision would be South Korea and the United States alone, one being the willingness to install the system, the other being the willingness to sell the system*.

This is the same as you can ask Cuba to install a Chinese Radar, it will be done regardless how US object or react to such act, however, the final decision is always between China and Cuba, US can do anything to object such move, but as long as Cuba willing to install the Chinese Radar, there are nothing the US can do to say otherwise.

Also, you are quite naïve to think a trade war or helping the NK would help your case, trade war does not benefit China, in fact, since China have a big export surplus to SK, it would hurt China more than SK if China is to start a Trade War with the South. Reason being it's always easier to find supplier than market, and if China export more than they import from the South Korea, that means China will lose bigger share of business than South Korea. Think of it like this, if China stop supplying IC to Samsung for their phones and electronics, For Samsung, the worse they can get is to score an IC deal with someone else with a higher price, so the end result will be raise the price of their tablet, phone or TV, and most probably, they will be able to find a comparable price to China in the like of Thailand, Philippine, Vietnam, which then won't affect their business. On the other hand, the IC company lost Samsung as the client, they will then need to find another one that buy that much in order to keep the same production level, otherwise you are talking about shutting down production and so on. Downscaling a business is always more hurtful than a slightly raise of price.

Helping North Korea more will only isolate China in world stage, and also, it will help push South Korea further to the United States then they already are, if so, anything could happen, the South Korean may even request the US to station Nuclear Missile in the south just in case of a Korean War do-over.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> That's not things you do to stop South Korea from installing the THAAD System, that is just your response to the South Korea installing THAAD system. You can go to trade war with South Korea or increase your aid to North Korea, to try to scare SK off from installing THAAD, *but the ultimate decision would be South Korea and the United States alone, one being the willingness to install the system, the other being the willingness to sell the system*.
> 
> This is the same as you can ask Cuba to install a Chinese Radar, it will be done regardless how US object or react to such act, however, the final decision is always between China and Cuba, US can do anything to object such move, but as long as Cuba willing to install the Chinese Radar, there are nothing the US can do to say otherwise.
> 
> Also, you are quite naïve to think a trade war or helping the NK would help your case, trade war does not benefit China, in fact, since China have a big export surplus to SK, it would hurt China more than SK if China is to start a Trade War with the South. Reason being it's always easier to find supplier than market, and if China export more than they import from the South Korea, that means China will lose bigger share of business than South Korea. Think of it like this, if China stop supplying IC to Samsung for their phones and electronics, For Samsung, the worse they can get is to score an IC deal with someone else with a higher price, so the end result will be raise the price of their tablet, phone or TV, and most probably, they will be able to find a comparable price to China in the like of Thailand, Philippine, Vietnam, which then won't affect their business. On the other hand, the IC company lost Samsung as the client, they will then need to find another one that buy that much in order to keep the same production level, otherwise you are talking about shutting down production and so on. Downscaling a business is always more hurtful than a slightly raise of price.
> 
> Helping North Korea more will only isolate China in world stage, and also, it will help push South Korea further to the United States then they already are, if so, anything could happen, the South Korean may even request the US to station Nuclear Missile in the south just in case of a Korean War do-over.



You're wrong again, I didn't stay to stop SK from install THAAD but we sure can do something to counter it such as helping NK which it' s an option, if SK allow US to threaten our security, we will make them double payback
.
And no I'm not naïve, I think you read the trade figure upsidedown, SK is the one who has trade surplus with China and attract of most of Chinese tourists, they wll be the one to get the most pain if China decide to have a trade war. Japan, US and EU will be the ones who will jump of joys and will be delighted to fill the vacuum and take over SK business in China.

We help NK all the time and see no one dare to isolate China nor US itself, when SK allow American cross the red line then we will be careless of the fate of SK or what US has to say: sure SK can get closer to US and even allow US to place nuke, China can do the same with Cuba or any South America countries, are American gonna have Cuba crisis 2.0? 



jerry_tan said:


> They talking to each other  but nobody is smart enough to comment about putting also their own version of THAAD missiles in North Korea..
> 
> From Australia, Japan, India , Vietnam, Philippines and even Skorea they made most of their neighbor as enemies poor commie. And their friends are from 4th world countries like Venezuela , Nkorea , Pakistan & some Africans



We certainly smarter than Pinoy, put our version of THAAD in North Korea to do what? you pinoy better go to have the 101 lesson on what it call strategical deployment, we rather put that in Scarborough Shoal which much pay off because we can not only scan Philippine but control the entire SCS...LMAO

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## jhungary

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> You're wrong again, I didn't stay to stop SK from install THAAD but we sure can do something to counter it such as helping NK which it' s an option, if SK allow US to threaten our security, we will make them double payback
> .
> And no I'm not naïve, I think you read the trade figure upsidedown, SK is the one who has trade surplus with China and attract of most of Chinese tourists, they wll be the one to get the most pain if China decide to have a trade war. Japan, US and EU will be the ones who will jump of joys and will be delighted to fill the vacuum and take over SK business in China.
> 
> We help NK all the time and see no one dare to isolate China nor US itself, when SK allow American cross the red line then we will be careless of the fate of SK or what US has to say: sure SK can get closer to US and even allow US to place nuke, China can do the same with Cuba or any South America countries, are American gonna have Cuba crisis 2.0?
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly smarter than Pinoy, put our version of THAAD in North Korea to do what? you pinoy better go to have the 101 lesson on what it call strategical deployment, we rather put that in Scarborough Shoal which much pay off because we can not only scan Philippine but control the entire SCS...LMAO




Oh well, if you think this is the way to win.

*There is a reason why what you said have not been done by the Chinese Government, care to venture a guess?*

It was not like you said at all that you can just do this and that, every action comes with consequence, and for you, these consequence is non-existence for China. And guess what? I am glad the country did not run by people like you...

Anyway, there are nothing more for me to talk about here, you refused to see the reality and live in your dream land where you are the king of your own world, I am not going to argue with that.

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## gambit

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> And that do not exclude that China and Russia will join hand to install Radar in Cuba, remember Castro is still communist friend.


   

*THAT* is hilarious. Cuba is too far out of Moscow's and Beijing's reach, son. All the Castros can do is talk, Cuba's physical proximity and now increasing economic dependencies on North America will pull them in the *OPPOSITE* direction of their talk. Yes, once in a while, China can make a port call to Cuba, but try making Cuba a branch of the PLA and we can life even worse for Cuba than when Fidel was in power. You think Beijing is going to come to Cuba's assistance when the entire island is under blockade ?



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> You're wrong again, I didn't stay to stop SK from install THAAD but we sure can do something to counter it such as helping NK which it' s an option,...


You can call anything an 'option'. But companion to calling anything optional is feasibility. In the abstract, China can install her version of THAAD in Mexico, but feasibility will make it THUD.

The US already have her Army and Air Force in-country of South Korea. What does China have in-country of her military in North Korea ? Zilch. The US Navy make regular port calls and have joint exercises with the South Korean navy. How often is the same actions between the PLAN and the North Korean navy ? Right now, the PLAN is more eager to have a joint exercise with US Navy than trying to get anything done with the North Koreans. Establishment make it easy for growth and the US is far more established in South Korea than China is in North Korea.

With no feasibility, you have no option. That is how the real world works. But of course, *YOU* live in a fantasy world.

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## gambit

Beidou2020 said:


> Delete your account.


If you can transfer one million dollars to a Caribbean bank account of my choosing, I will do as you ask.


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## Three_Kingdoms

Beidou2020 said:


> Trying to destroy the China-South Korea relationship is one of the aims of the US. The US will then fill the void left by China and become the most important economic partner for South Korea.
> 
> China should avoid falling for the trap set.



I think the best way for us to fight off the threat of THAAD is to develop our own version of jamming deception systems which are to make their wide area surveillance function obsolete

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

jhungary said:


> Oh well, if you think this is the way to win.
> 
> *There is a reason why what you said have not been done by the Chinese Government, care to venture a guess?*
> 
> It was not like you said at all that you can just do this and that, every action comes with consequence, and for you, these consequence is non-existence for China. And guess what? I am glad the country did not run by people like you...
> 
> Anyway, there are nothing more for me to talk about here, you refused to see the reality and live in your dream land where you are the king of your own world, I am not going to argue with that.



There is reason why China has not done what I said because they have better idea and in better position than me to deal with THAAD, If China just do what I said, you think I'm still sitting in front of my PC? LMAO 

And you're very right, every action come with consequence, you think deployment of THAAD in SK is without consequence? Only American exceptionalism think that way. And no China don't need me to do anyrhing for the country, I'm pretty confident that Chinese gorverment can handle all threat by themselves.

And you're wrong, I'm interested to see your version of reality but doesn't mean I have to buy, the best I can do it's agree to disagree.



gambit said:


> *THAT* is hilarious. Cuba is too far out of Moscow's and Beijing's reach, son. All the Castros can do is talk, Cuba's physical proximity and now increasing economic dependencies on North America will pull them in the *OPPOSITE* direction of their talk. Yes, once in a while, China can make a port call to Cuba, but try making Cuba a branch of the PLA and we can life even worse for Cuba than when Fidel was in power. You think Beijing is going to come to Cuba's assistance when the entire island is under blockade ?



Cubar is too far out for Beijing's reach? Kid, your country don't have communication satellite I can understand that , placing Radar in Cuba is not a threat nor aiming to any third country , if US can do that in SK so we sure can do with Cuba, US don't own Cuba, try to set blockade as much as they want but harm our ship and freedom of navigation to Cuba than US mean to declare war to China



gambit said:


> You can call anything an 'option'. But companion to calling anything optional is feasibility. In the abstract, China can install her version of THAAD in Mexico, but feasibility will make it THUD.
> 
> The US already have her Army and Air Force in-country of South Korea. What does China have in-country of her military in North Korea ? Zilch. The US Navy make regular port calls and have joint exercises with the South Korean navy. How often is the same actions between the PLAN and the North Korean navy ? Right now, the PLAN is more eager to have a joint exercise with US Navy than trying to get anything done with the North Koreans. Establishment make it easy for growth and the US is far more established in South Korea than China is in North Korea.
> 
> With no feasibility, you have no option. That is how the real world works. But of course, *YOU* live in a fantasy world.



We don't need regular port call or joint exercise with NK, the moment they need , we just walk in as during Korean war in 1950s...you don't need PhD to understand that.

And we're eager to have joint exercise with US navy??? we're not Japanese to just want carrying American order to turn left and Right with our ship and pretending to do exercise, we did more exercise with Russia than US, the only time we do that with US it's under their invitation and to give them some face saving...LMAO

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## Brainsucker

Well, look at the brighter side. It give China a reason to develop their missile force further. Complaining like that will only give a counter productive result, and boost THAAD popularity in the world.

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## xunzi

jhungary said:


> That's not things you do to stop South Korea from installing the THAAD System, that is just your response to the South Korea installing THAAD system. You can go to trade war with South Korea or increase your aid to North Korea, to try to scare SK off from installing THAAD, *but the ultimate decision would be South Korea and the United States alone, one being the willingness to install the system, the other being the willingness to sell the system*.
> 
> This is the same as you can ask Cuba to install a Chinese Radar, it will be done regardless how US object or react to such act, however, the final decision is always between China and Cuba, US can do anything to object such move, but as long as Cuba willing to install the Chinese Radar, there are nothing the US can do to say otherwise.
> 
> Also, you are quite naïve to think a trade war or helping the NK would help your case, trade war does not benefit China, in fact, since China have a big export surplus to SK, it would hurt China more than SK if China is to start a Trade War with the South. Reason being it's always easier to find supplier than market, and if China export more than they import from the South Korea, that means China will lose bigger share of business than South Korea. Think of it like this, if China stop supplying IC to Samsung for their phones and electronics, For Samsung, the worse they can get is to score an IC deal with someone else with a higher price, so the end result will be raise the price of their tablet, phone or TV, and most probably, they will be able to find a comparable price to China in the like of Thailand, Philippine, Vietnam, which then won't affect their business. On the other hand, the IC company lost Samsung as the client, they will then need to find another one that buy that much in order to keep the same production level, otherwise you are talking about shutting down production and so on. Downscaling a business is always more hurtful than a slightly raise of price.
> 
> Helping North Korea more will only isolate China in world stage, and also, it will help push South Korea further to the United States then they already are, if so, anything could happen, the South Korean may even request the US to station Nuclear Missile in the south just in case of a Korean War do-over.


South Korean has a trade surplus with us, my friend. Learn the fact!

As I have said before, we will have a proper response to the THAAD deployment. The rest of what you said is nonsense. We will pursue our interest in North Korea to fit within the national interest just as the US pursue their interest in South Korea.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Three_Kingdoms said:


> I think the best way for us to fight off the threat of THAAD is to develop our own version of jamming deception systems which are to make their wide area surveillance function obsolete



China should adopt multi-layer approach to deal with THAAD:

-Jamming deception as you said
-Diplomacy: tell US not to do that or we can do that with Cuba or Mexico 
-Sanction to SK
-Help Nord Korea
-Join Russia to denounce American threat
-Build and deploy our anti-ballistic

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## Three_Kingdoms

Can we hold a 3-party talk with the 2 Koreans? Say, look any side of the Koreans who tries to f* the other Koreans is doomed to be hard hit by PLA, no mercy 
So off you go tell the Americans to go home packing with their THAAD!

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## Brainsucker

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China should adopt multi-layer approach to deal with THAAD:
> 
> -Jamming deception as you said
> -Diplomacy: tell US not to do that or we can do that with Cuba or Mexico
> -Sanction to SK
> -Help Nord Korea
> -Join Russia to denounce American threat
> -Build and deploy our anti-ballistic



You don't have to do anything like that. You don't have to sell highly advanced weapon to NK either. Just send your most advanced jamming system / anti missile missile to NK, included your army.

And how do you do that? Remember that NK has defensive alliance treaty with China. Without this treaty, US and ROK would have marching their army to Pyongyang long time ago. Plus, it is not selling anything to Pyongyang. You put your army there, just like what US do in ROK . The reason is, to defend your ally or to obligate your responsibility as the DPRK ally. 

This way will make ROK think twice before they do to escalate the tension in the region.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Brainsucker said:


> You don't have to do anything like that. You don't have to sell highly advanced weapon to NK either. Just send your most advanced jamming system / anti missile missile to NK, included your army.
> 
> And how do you do that? Remember that NK has defensive alliance treaty with China. Without this treaty, US and ROK would have marching their army to Pyongyang long time ago. Plus, it is not selling anything to Pyongyang. You put your army there, just like what US do in ROK . The reason is, to defend your ally from US attack.
> 
> This way will make ROK think twice before they do to escalate the tension in the region.



Well said but people are saying that China will get isolated if we decide to help NK

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## Brainsucker

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Well said but people are saying that China will get isolated if we decide to help NK



Why is that? you have a treaty with DPRK. It's your obligation to defend DPRK if ROK, Japan, and US decide to march their army to destroy Kim dynasty. Plus, you don't sell anything to them. It's not violating UN's blockade to DPRK. You just send a small element of your army there; just like what US did in ROK, Japan, and Taiwan.

This can give ROK 2 options. Either they want to see your armies in DPRK or they reject US's THAAD.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Brainsucker said:


> Why is that? you have a treaty with DPRK. It's your obligation to defend DPRK if ROK, Japan, and US decide to march their army to destroy Kim dynasty. Plus, you don't sell anything to them. You just send a small element of your army there; just like what US did in ROK, Japan, and Taiwan.



I think China should start to learn how to sign defense treaty with other nations in Middle east and South America, so we can invoke defense treaty to sell army to these countries..

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## gambit

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> There is reason why China has not done what I said because they have better idea and in better position than me to deal with THAAD, If China just do what I said, you think I'm still sitting in front of my PC?


So essentially, you are saying that you do not know what you are talking about. LMAO 



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Cubar is too far out for Beijing's reach?


Yes. And am not talking geographically.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Kid,...


Am old enough to be your father.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> ...your country don't have communication satellite I can understand that...


My country is the US.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> US don't own Cuba,...


We pretty much do -- notionally speaking. And everybody in the Western Hemisphere knows it.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> ...try to set blockade as much as they want but harm our ship and freedom of navigation to Cuba than US mean to declare war to China


And you think China can take on US in our backyard over Cuba ? 

You cannot even take on US in your backyard. You want to see a real kid ? Go look in the mirror.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> And we're eager to have joint exercise with US navy???


Yes, you do. You want to learn from the best, no ?



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> ...we did more exercise with Russia than US...


Am sure you can learn a weeeee bit from the 2nd rate Russian Navy.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

The good doctor wrote _*the Grand Chessboard.*_

The prescription is followed to the letter by the US establishment. 

Great to see how the mind of this strategist works...and how tactics evolve/change..but strategic thrust remains the same.

Only through study and application of wisdom a Taoist can percieve.

Through Virtue and Forbearance the _*Go*_ can be played.

The Chinese have keenly studied the grand chessboard. 

At display here is the difference between two paradigms.

Young ones seek excitement and fireworks... old and wise win without much fanfare.

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## patu

Three_Kingdoms said:


> I think the best way for us to fight off the threat of THAAD is to develop our own version of jamming deception systems which are to make their wide area surveillance function obsolete


I am agree with you And that's what the most nation leader chose. 
As in my opinion that's the deeper motives of the Chinass leader and any other country so they have a high diter now.

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## TaiShang

*China's “Going Out” Initiative: Service Demand of Western China to Tap Belt and Road Opportunities* Part I

29 July 2016

*Hong Kong Trade Office*

Thanks to the active overseas investment of Chinese enterprises in recent years and the Chinese government’s advancement of the Belt and Road Initiative, China was the world’s third-largest source of foreign investment for the fourth consecutive year in 2015. In fact, many mainland enterprises are stepping up their efforts in “going out” to look for brands, technologies and other resources to boost their competitiveness, while bringing in the advantages of foreign partners as a way to further develop Chinese and overseas markets.

HKTDC Research recently conducted a questionnaire survey with enterprises in western China. The results reveal that in order to deal with such challenges as securing financing, escalating production costs and market slowdowns, mainland enterprises are keen to seek outside professional services to help them achieve transformation and upgrading. These range from brand design and promotion strategies, to marketing and product research and development (R&D), to financial and legal services.

Moreover, the majority of enterprises surveyed said they would consider “going out” further to tap business opportunities in countries along the Belt and Road routes, particularly in ASEAN countries and other Southeast Asian markets. As well as aiming to sell more industrial/light consumer products to Belt and Road markets, they also wish to carry out sourcing and investment activities such as setting up factories.






Many Chinese enterprises are considering “going out” to capture Belt and Road opportunities.

The largest proportion of the surveyed enterprises (50%) said that, in the course of “going out”, they would be most interested in going to Hong Kong to seek professional supporting services and business partners. This is in line with the results of similar surveys carried out by HKTDC Research in the past three years, namely in the Pearl River Delta (PRD) in 2013, the Yangtze River Delta (YRD) in 2014 and the Bohai Rim in 2015. Therefore, whether in the coastal regions or in western China, it is apparent that Hong Kong is the preferred services platform for mainland enterprises intent on “going out”.

*New Pattern of Opening Up Under the 13th Five-Year Plan*

China is not only a leading destination for foreign direct investment (FDI), but it also ranks among the world’s top sources of FDI. Indeed, China has in recent years significantly relaxed its administrative measures on outbound investment in order to facilitate the “going out” of enterprises to invest overseas. Furthermore, the Belt and Road Initiative strengthens mutually beneficial co-operation with countries along its economic corridors.

Adopted in March 2016, China’s 13th Five-Year Plan[1] stresses the need to establish a new pattern of all-round opening up in the next five years (2016-2020). It encourages enterprises to “go out” to establish sales networks in foreign markets and to bring in the advantages of foreign partners to enhance competitiveness. Meanwhile, bilateral and multilateral co-operation mechanisms will be improved to encourage co-operation and investment in countries along the Belt and Road routes, infrastructure connectivity and trade facilitation advanced, and co-operation in energy and industry chains strengthened. It can therefore be expected that China’s outbound investment activities will see further expansion.

*The World’s Third-Largest FDI Source*

According to the latest United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD) figures[2], for four straight years since 2012 China has been the world’s third-largest source of FDI. China’s total outward FDI flows have increased from US$123.1 billion in 2014 to about US$127.6 billion in 2015, trailing only the United States (US$300 billion) and Japan (US$128.7 billion).

Although China has entered into a “new normal” of slower economic growth in the past few years, it has gradually become a main investor in certain developed countries. In particular, investment through cross-border mergers and acquisitions has been increasing, and has moved away from the previous pattern of focusing on energy and natural resources to a diversified pattern covering wholesale and retail, transportation and shipping/warehousing, and real property development. Furthermore, many Chinese enterprises have engaged with their foreign partners in co-operation projects involving technology, or are carrying out various types of commercial co-operation activities with foreign brands, as a way to further develop Chinese and overseas markets.













Meanwhile, China’s direct investment in Belt and Road countries is continually increasing, rising substantially from about US$400 million in 2004 to US$13.66 billion in 2014, an average annual increase of about 43%. Ministry of Commerce figures show that in 2015 Chinese enterprises made non-financial sector direct investment totalling US$14.8 billion (+18.2%) to 49 Belt and Road countries, accounting for 12.6% of China’s total non-financial sector direct investment that year. The investment flows were mainly directed towards *Singapore, Kazakhstan, Laos, Indonesia and Russia.*

It is worth noting that a considerable number of Chinese enterprises choose Hong Kong as their main channel for carrying out outbound investment – not only because Hong Kong is an international financial centre in the region with such advantages as free flow of capital. Abundant global communications and market network resources, as well as the availability of a complete range of professional services, are also key factors attracting mainland enterprises to use the Hong Kong platform in “going out”.

According to Ministry of Commerce figures, in 2014 the Chinese mainland routed US$70.9 billion in outward FDI through Hong Kong, accounting for 57.6% of the mainland’s total FDI outflows that year. Based on cumulative investment stock as at the end of 2014, the mainland has made US$509.9 billion in outward FDI through Hong Kong, accounting for 57.8% of the mainland’s outward FDI stock.[3]

Part II @Shotgunner51





China is the world’s third-largest source of FDI.





A considerable number of Chinese enterprises choose Hong Kong as their main channel for outbound investment.


*Hong Kong: a Preferred Platform*

Many cities and economic regions along China’s coast have been open to the outside world for many years. As China’s economy and investment outflows expand, coastal regions, provinces and cities, such as the PRD, YRD and Bohai Rim, have become main sources of outbound investment. On the other hand, with the western region including Sichuan province and Chongqing municipal benefiting from the Western Development strategy and other preferential policies, and with the efforts of provinces and cities concerned in attracting outside businesses and capital, the economy in the western region has been developing rapidly. Western China has always been an important gateway, a trading and logistics hub and an industry exchange ground connecting to Central Asia, South Asia and West Asia, and now enterprises in the region are also developing related investment and trading opportunities under the country’s “going out” and Belt and Road initiatives.

In May 2016, HKTDC Research conducted a questionnaire survey at the SmartHK fair held in Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province. As well as seeking to understand what challenges enterprises in western China are facing in their operations, the survey also aimed to find out about their intentions concerning transformation and upgrading, in “going out” to tap Belt and Road business opportunities, and their demand for professional services.

The survey followed similar studies carried out by HKTDC Research in the past three years in the PRD (2013), the YRD (2014) and Bohai Rim (2015) regions.[4] In the current survey, 237 effective questionnaires were completed by mainland enterprises (comprising trading companies, manufacturers and service suppliers) mainly from Sichuan, Chongqing and elsewhere in the western region.[5] The opinions of these 237 mainland enterprises on “going out” to tap Belt and Road business opportunities are outlined below.[6]

*Challenges in Business Operations*

Of the enterprises surveyed, 96% said they had come across different types of challenges in their operations in the past year. The three main problems they faced were (1) difficulties in financing; (2) rising labour, land and/or other production costs; and (3) a weak mainland market and inadequate orders. These accounted for 39%, 38% and 36%, respectively, of the enterprises surveyed.

In addition, 26% of the enterprises indicated they were worried about their lack of capability in product design and technological R&D; 22% pointed out that, in the face of keen competition in the international markets, they lacked competitive brands to help develop international markets and business; and 20% said they were affected by weak international markets and inadequate orders. By comparison, relatively few enterprises (only 9% of those surveyed) said the volatile renminbi exchange rate, including depreciation of the currencies in their target markets, was a hindrance.






*Adjusting Operating Strategy*

Confronted with market competition and other challenges, 95% of the enterprises surveyed said they had already adjusted their business and operating strategies and made relevant investment, or would consider doing so in the next one to three years. As to the direction of adjustments in business and operating strategies, *most enterprises indicated they would do more to develop overseas markets, accounting for 44% of all enterprises surveyed (including 29% saying they would do more to develop overseas mature markets and 25% saying they would do more to develop overseas emerging markets). In addition, 43% said they would develop/strengthen their own-brand business, while 41% said they would like to do more to develop the Chinese mainland market.*

Compared with the results of previous surveys, enterprises in western China appeared to be as keen as their PRD counterparts in wanting to develop both overseas markets and the Chinese mainland market. In comparison, enterprises in the YRD and Bohai Rim regions were more concerned with bringing in foreign advantages to develop the mainland market, showing that the development strategies of enterprises in different regions were not all the same.






*Intention of Tapping Belt and Road Opportunities*

In the current survey, enterprises were also asked about their opinion on Belt and Road opportunities. *Among all the enterprises surveyed, 81% said they would consider tapping opportunities in countries along Belt and Road routes in the next one to three years.* Among these enterprises, *most (65%) said they would like to sell more industrial products and light consumer goods to Belt and Road markets. A smaller proportion of the enterprises (34%) would like to go to Belt and Road countries to carry out sourcing activities, including the sourcing of consumer goods/food products to sell in the mainland market or the sourcing of raw materials for production on the mainland.* Some enterprises (26%) would like to invest and set up factories in Belt and Road countries. In addition, 17% would like to set up transit warehouses in overseas locations including Belt and Road countries to enhance international logistics efficiency.

On the other hand, more than half of the enterprises (53%) said they would be most interested in going to Southeast Asia, such as ASEAN countries, to tap Belt and Road opportunities. Other locations of interest included South Asia (27%), Central and West Asia (20%), Central and Eastern Europe (19%) and the Middle East and Africa (18%).

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## TaiShang

Part III

*Keen Demand for Hong Kong and Overseas Services*

Facing all types of business and operating challenges and aiming to advance transformation and upgrading, the enterprises surveyed were keen for various types of professional services. In line with the results of HKTDC’s surveys conducted previously in the PRD, YRD and Bohai Rim regions,* the three main types of services most sought by western China enterprises were: (1) brand design and promotion strategy; (2) marketing strategy for the development of new business and new markets (including the development of Belt and Road markets); and (3) product development and design.* These accounted for 46%, 45% and 44%, respectively, of the enterprises surveyed. This shows that, irrespective of the direction of transformation and upgrading of mainland enterprises or the focus of their operating strategies, the professional services needs of enterprises from different regions are more or less the same.

Other services western China enterprises need to seek from the outside included: marketing activities tailored to overseas markets, including Belt and Road markets (37%); financial services such as banking, financing and project valuation (36%); services in energy conservation, emission reduction and environmental protection technology (33%); and supply chain management and support services, such as materials and product inventory and logistics management (31%). Of those enterprises surveyed requiring these services, more than 60% indicated they would use the services provided by Hong Kong or overseas suppliers, with the exception of energy conservation and environmental protection technology.






*“Going out” To Seek Business Partners*

Meanwhile, 81% of the enterprises surveyed expressed an interest in seeking, or had already “gone out” to seek, business partners overseas.* The majority of the enterprises (about 50%) said they were interested in co-operating with foreign brands to increase sales. This is similar to the results from the surveys previously conducted in the PRD, YRD and Bohai Rim regions.* (Coincidentally, enterprises from different regions considered brand co-operation as their top reason for seeking foreign partners.)

*In addition, 22% of the western China enterprises surveyed said they would like to acquire minority equity stakes in foreign companies to expand their overseas/mainland sales networks, 20% would like to enter into technological co-operation with overseas institutions, while 15% would like to redouble their efforts in purchasing high-tech equipment, raw materials and key parts and components from overseas.*






*Hong Kong as the Preferred Services Platform for the Mainland’s “Going Out”*

About half (50%) of the enterprises surveyed indicated they would like to go to Hong Kong to seek the professional services mentioned above and/or to look for foreign business partners. *Although this proportion is slightly lower than in the previous three surveys, Hong Kong remains the “going out” platform preferred by most western China enterprises, and attracts the preference of a much higher proportion of enterprises surveyed than other locations such as the US, Germany, Taiwan, Japan and Singapore, which account for 26%, 20%, 19%, 17% and 14%, respectively, of the enterprises surveyed.* It is therefore apparent that, irrespective of the location of a mainland enterprise or whether it is from the PRD, YRD, Bohai Rim or China’s western region, Hong Kong is the preferred services platform for “going out” from the mainland.






http://hkmb.hktdc.com/en/1X0A6UMW/hktdc-research/Chinas-“Going-Out”-Initiative-Service-Demand-of-Western-China-to-Tap-Belt-and-Road-Opportunities?utm_source=enews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=hkmb-edm

@Chinese-Dragon , @Beidou2020

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## ahojunk

_Here is a video on one of the OBOR railway between Yiwu, China and Madrid, Spain._

--------






*Yiwu-Madrid railway line: New route between China and Europe*



CCTV News
Published on 5 Aug 2016

Direct cargo trains between China and Europe are no longer new to logistics and transport. However, to one place in China, the new route, which began two years ago, has brought new meanings to the area. CCTV’s Shi Wenjing visits east China's Yiwu, a city that holds the world's largest commodity wholesale market.

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## ahojunk

_Not exactly 1B1R, but what the heck..._

--------
Cambodia inaugurates China-funded road in western province
Source: Xinhua | 2016-08-02 18:04:20 | Editor: huaxia





_May 6, 2013. Cambodian Prime Minister Samdech Techo Hun Sen drive a bulldozer during the inauguration ceremony of the construction project of national road No. 44 in Kampong Speu province, Cambodia. (Xinhua/Li Hong)_


KAMPONG SPEU, Cambodia, Aug. 2 (Xinhua) -- Cambodia on Tuesday inaugurated the 140 km national road No. 44 here, which had been built under a concessional loan from China.

The road is off the national road No. 4, going through four districts in western Kampong Speu province and ending at the national road No. 5.

Cambodian Prime Minister Samdech Techo Hun Sen and Chinese Ambassador to Cambodia Bu Jianguo presided over the inauguration ceremony, which was attended by government officials, diplomatic corps and about 10,000 locals.

Hun Sen said the road was essential to facilitate travel and goods transport in the province, expressing his sincere thanks to China for her support to the project.

Ambassador Bu said she is confident that the road will contribute to improving the livelihood of residents along the road.

The road had been constructed by the China Road and Bridge Corporation in a period of 40 months.






_Cambodian Prime Minister Samdech Techo Hun Sen cuts the ribbon during the inauguration ceremony of national road No. 44 in Kampong Speu province, Cambodia, Aug. 2, 2016. (Xinhua/Sovannara)_

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## ahojunk

_Now this news from Cambodia is OBOR (or Belt & Road Initiative) related..._

--------
Cambodian PM, Chinese commerce minister discuss cooperation under Belt and Road Initiative
Source: Xinhua | 2016-08-01 21:38:09 | Editor: huaxia





_Cambodian Prime Minister Samdech Techo Hun Sen (R) meets with Chinese Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, Aug. 1, 2016. (Xinhua/Sovannara)_


PHNOM PENH, Aug. 1 (Xinhua) -- Cambodian Prime Minister Samdech Techo Hun Sen met with visiting Chinese Commerce Minister Gao Hucheng on Monday, discussing the cooperation between the two countries under the framework of China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative, a senior official said.

Hun Sen said that Cambodia fully supported the Belt and Road Initiative, adding that the country has been working to link its Rectangular Strategy to the initiative, according to Eang Sophalleth, a personal aide to the prime minister.

The prime minister said the initiative would importantly contribute to Cambodia's socio-economic development.

For his part, Gao said that his visit to Cambodia was to learn about Cambodia's strategy in connecting with the Belt and Road Initiative and to promote the implementation of agreements that the two countries had reached.

The minister said that he would hold talks with CambodianCommerce Minister Pan Sorasak, Finance Minister Aun **** Moniroth, and Transport Minister Sun Chanthol on Tuesday in order to explore ways to broaden bilateral cooperation in economy, trade, investment, and transport infrastructure development.

During the meeting, Hun Sen pinned the government's honorary medal to Gao to thank him for his contributions to the development of Cambodia.

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## ahojunk

China's first refrigerated container train leaves for Moscow
(Xinhua) 21:04, August 08, 2016





_China's first refrigerated-container train left for Moscow from northeast China's Dalian on Monday, marking the opening of a new transport link between the two countries._

DALIAN, Aug.8 -- China's first refrigerated-container train left for Moscow from northeast China's Dalian on Monday, marking the opening of a new transport link between the two countries.

The new refrigerated-freight line is 8,600 km long, with trains taking about 10 days to reach Moscow. The train is carrying products worth 150,000 U.S.dollars, including pears from Hebei, pomelos from Guangdong and garlic from Shandong.

After crossing the border, goods will switch to a Russian freight train in Baikal, Siberia.

The new transport link will shorten the journey time by 60 percent as the old route used sea and rail travel.
China's refrigerated-product exports to Russia have been on the rise.





_China's first refrigerated-container train left for Moscow from northeast China's Dalian on Monday, marking the opening of a new transport link between the two countries. _

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## ahojunk

*China’s US$1.4 trillion ‘One Belt, One Road’ set to make bigger impact than US’ Marshall Plan to rebuild post-war Europe*

*Project is set to leave economic legacy bigger and extend Beijing’s might across the globe*

PUBLISHED : Monday, 08 August, 2016, 2:03pm
UPDATED : Monday, 08 August, 2016, 11:08pm

China’s ambition to revive an ancient trading route stretching from Asia to Europe could leave an economic legacy bigger than the Marshall Plan or the European Union’s enlargement, according to a new analysis.

Dubbed “One Belt, One Road”, the plan to build rail, highways and ports will embolden China’s soft-power status by spreading economic prosperity during a time of heightened political uncertainty in both the United States and European Union, according to Stephen L. Jen, chief executive officer at Eurizon SLJ Capital, who estimates a value of US$1.4 trillion for the project. 

It will also boost trading links and help internationalise the yuan as banks open branches along the route, according to Jen.

“This is a quintessential example of a geopolitical event that will likely be consequential for the global economy and the balance of political power in the long run,” said Jen, a former International Monetary Fund economist.

Reaching from east to west, the Silk Road Economic Belt will extend to Europe through Central Asia and the Maritime Silk Road will link sea lanes to Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

While China’s authorities aren’t calling their Silk Road a new Marshall Plan, that’s not stopping comparisons with the US effort to rebuild western Europe after the second world war.

With the potential to touch on 64 countries, 4.4 billion people and around 40 per cent of the global economy, Jen estimates that the “One Belt, One Road” project will be 12 times bigger in absolute dollar terms than the Marshall Plan. 

China may spend as much as 9 per cent of gross domestic product – about double the US’ boost to post-war Europe in those terms.

“The ‘One Belt, One Road’ project, in terms of its size, could be multiple times larger and more ambitious than the Marshall Plan or the European enlargement,” said Jen.

It’s not all upside. Undertaking an expansive plan like this one will inevitably run the risk of corruption, project delays and local opposition.

Chinese-backed projects have frequently run into trouble before, especially in Africa, and there’s no guarantee that potential recipient nations will put up their hand for the aid.

In addition, resurrecting the trading route will need funding during a time of slowing growth and rising bad loans in the nation’s banks. Sending money abroad when it’s needed at home may not have an enduring appeal.

Still, at least China has a plan.

“*The fact that this is a 30-40 year plan is remarkable as China is the only country with any long-term development plan, and this underscores the policy long-termism in China, in contrast to the dominance of policy short-termism in much of the West,*” Jen said.

And that’s a win-win for soft power.

“The ‘One Belt, One Road’ project could be a huge PR exercise that could win over government and public support in these countries,” he said.


This article appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition as:
Silk Road scheme ‘may dwarf Marshall Plan’s ambitions’

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## BoQ77

*by Andrew Mckirdy*
Staff Writer

Aug 9, 2016
RIO DE JANEIRO – Japan captured the men’s Olympic team all-around gymnastic gold medal it craved after pulling away from the competition in imperious fashion at the Rio Games on Monday.

The team of Kohei Uchimura, Ryohei Kato, Yusuke Tanaka, Kenzo Shirai and Koji Yamamuro started slowly at Rio Olympic Arena but gradually reeled in leader Russia before moving into first place by the finest of margins going into the final rotation.

A stunning floor performance by Olympic debutant Shirai then gave Japan breathing space ahead of nearest rivals Russia and China, and a final score of 274.094 confirmed Japan’s win and a first Olympic team gold since the 2004 Athens Games.

“Now that I’ve got this medal, it really feels like a real Olympic gold medal,” said team leader Uchimura, a record six-time all-around world champion who will attempt to defend his individual Olympic title on Wednesday.

“I’ve won individual gold medals before but this feels completely different. To win a gold medal with my friends is something that makes me so happy.”

Russia took the silver medal with a score of 271.453, while China, which won gold in both 2008 and 2012, took bronze with 271.122.

Shirai bagged the second-highest individual score of the final just when his team needed it most.

Japan headed into the final floor exercise with less than a point lead over both Russia and China, but the 19-year-old twisted and tumbled his way to a mark of 16.133 to put the gold medal beyond doubt.

“I felt a huge responsibility going into the floor exercise,” said Shirai, who will compete in the floor final on Sunday. “The coach had told me to practice the things that had gone wrong in qualifying, and I wasn’t thinking that I was going to fail. I knew if I performed as I usually did, I would be OK.”

Japan, which won the world team title last October in Glasgow, Scotland, after a 37-year drought, got off to a difficult start when Yamamuro fell off the pommel horse, the team’s first apparatus of the evening.

“At first I started thinking about why I had fallen off, but then I told myself to just go out there and do the things I am capable of and think only about that,” said Yamamuro.

Yamamuro’s mistake left Japan in sixth place after the first rotation, but strong performances on the rings and vault pushed the team up to second behind Russia before a ferocious showing by Tanaka on the parallel bars further closed the gap.

“I’ve been working hard for the past four years since the London Olympics, and I wanted to be able to keep my cool during this competition,” said Tanaka, whose performance on the parallel bars earned him a score of 15.9, the team’s second-highest mark behind Shirai’s floor performance.

“But it’s just not possible to keep your cool when you get here. So all I could do was just believe in my training and go out there and do it.”

Japan struggled to find its rhythm in Saturday’s qualifying round, with Uchimura slipping on the pommel horse and falling off the horizontal bar to set nerves jangling ahead of the final.

But a steady performance on the night brought the team the prize that had eluded it at the past two Olympics, and Shirai — the only member making his debut — was pleased to make it first time lucky.

“I’ve dreamed of competing at the Olympics since I was a little kid, especially when I watched the teams that lost in Beijing and London,” said the Nippon Sports Science University student. “So to be part of the team that has won the gold medal hasn’t really sunk in yet. I’m really happy and it’s a great experience.”

And now that Japan’s 12-year Olympic itch has been scratched, Uchimura is hoping for more success on home soil in four years’ time.

“You can’t top what happened in Athens, but we’ve made our own history here,” said the 27-year-old Nagasaki Prefecture native. “I think this is something that we can take into the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo.

“This result will put pressure on the gymnasts who compete in the final in 2020, but there are many in Japan who can live up to that. I’d like them to watch what we’ve done and take as much from it as they can.”


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## BoQ77

US women's gymnastics team strikes gold over Russia, China.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

What about Vietnam?

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## sweetgrape

Can understand the poster is very happy China team are suppressd by no matter who, what a poor vietcong, final post is in China&Far East forum

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## BoQ77

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> What about Vietnam?



straight ques, straight ans. Vietnam is weak at that. 
And Phan Thi Ha Thanh doesn't reach her best performance.



sweetgrape said:


> Can understand the poster is very happy China team are suppressd by no matter who, what a poor vietcong, final post is in China&Far East forum



Sorry for not so good achievement, China men and women team performed in Rio.
They deserved to have 2 golds for China.

IT is my surprise to see these results.
But dont deny the progress of Japan and USA.


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## sweetgrape

BoQ77 said:


> straight ques, straight ans. Vietnam is weak at that.
> And Phan Thi Ha Thanh doesn't reach her best performance.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for not so good achievement, China men and women team performed in Rio.
> They deserved to have 2 golds for China.
> 
> IT is my surprise to see these results.
> But dont deny the progress of Japan and USA.


You think it hurt us? hehe, what a poor vietnam! we are much more mature than you, we are not at the same level, you can't understand, kid

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## Jlaw

Why are Chinese coaches training Vietcong to win medals? Are Chinese stupid or just falling for fake Viet kindness?


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## BoQ77

Money is a factor


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## ahojunk

_The countries along the Belt & Road Initiative are lucky._

--------
China's new scholarship to sponsor students from Belt & Road nations
Source: Xinhua 2016-08-11 20:57:40


BEIJING, Aug. 11 (Xinhua) -- The central government will establish a Belt and Road scholarship, which will sponsor students from countries along the routes to study in China, according to an action plan publicized Thursday.

The scholarship will sponsor 10,000 foreign students each year over the next five years, according to an action plan on education cooperation, published by the Ministry of Education.

In the next three years, the government will also sponsor 2,500 Chinese students to study in Belt and Road initiative nations each year, according to the document.

The Belt and Road initiative refers to the building of the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road. It will be a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient trade routes.

The action plan also listed projects that would see the joint founding of schools and training for teachers and other professionals.

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## ahojunk

_An Australian journalist's view of OBOR. 
You can sense some frustration that Australian is not included._

--------
*Australia not part of China's Silk Road expansion of trade, for now*
Ross Gittins
July 31 2016

You've heard of belt and braces. You may even have heard of one country, two systems. But have you heard of One Belt, One Road? No, I thought not. Rest assured, you will.

It's a topic much discussed in business and economic circles in China, as I learnt on a visit there sponsored by the Australia-China Relations Institute at the University of Technology, Sydney.





_China's new silk road will run through central Asia. Photo: Prashanth Vishwanathan_

It's a plan for the establishment of a new Silk Road between Europe and China, to increase trade and cultural exchange between all the countries along the route.

It's an initiative of the Chinese government, first announced by President Xi Jinping in 2013, and much elaborated since then.

The belt refers a land-based Silk Road Economic Belt running through China to Central Asia to Russia and Europe.

The road refers to a sea-based Maritime Silk Road taking in the countries of south-east Asia and running through the Indian Ocean to the countries of South Asia, then through the Suez Canal to the Mediterranean.

To keep muddling metaphors, the maritime "road" may even have a spur line to Africa. In principle, more than 60 countries could be involved.

It may sound like a politicians' grand vision that won't get far. That's certainly the way some American critics have reacted to it. There could be much suspicion, resentment and resistance to China's expansion plans from countries and their citizens, they say.

But *while politicians talk big in Western countries, in China they tend to act big*. Making the initiative a reality would involve much spending on infrastructure such as sea ports, airports, railways, highways, oil and gas pipelines, power stations and special economic zones.

China has much to gain from all this, of course. Its existing development activity in certain African countries suggests it would supply much of the materials and labour for infrastructure projects.

Should the oft-predicted economic "hard landing" eventuate and lead to rapidly rising unemployment at home, its desire to get on with foreign construction projects might be heightened.

Establishing a new Silk Road means China, already the world's largest trading nation, would greatly expand its export opportunities.

Many Australian companies are well-equipped to supply such consulting services, but to-date our firms have shown limited appetite for the higher risks involved in developing country projects. 

But trade between a willing buyer and willing seller is mutually beneficial. And increased trade could do much to hasten the economic development of the "stans" of Central Asia - such as Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

Already there is much interest and activity in Pakistan.

Geoff Raby, a former Australian ambassador to China, has observed that the initiative is "of great strategic significance for Beijing, as it is also intended to reduce China's major strategic vulnerability caused by so much of its seaborne trade, especially crude oil, having to go through the Strait of Malacca".

As an aside, this vulnerability also helps explain China's sensitivity over the South China Sea.

Full implementation of the initiative could take decades, of course. But a solid start has already been made. For instance, a freight rail link between the south-western China province of Sichuan (the one with the spicy food) and Lodz in Poland is now running three trains a week.

This fits also with the Chinese government's earlier - and continuing - Go West campaign to move economic activity - particularly labour-intensive manufacturing - inland from the richer coastal provinces, where labour is getting ever-more expensive.

But have you noticed something? The many countries that could get involved with the initiative include Indonesia, but not us.

At least, not directly. There is scope, however, for Australian banks and other financial institutions help facilitate the funding of infrastructure projects.

Much of the construction of projects will be done by big Chinese state-owned enterprises. We could, of course, sit back and hope this leads to restored demand for our coal and iron ore.

But the SOEs will often need to partner with foreign firms able to provide the specialist expertise they lack in in such things as engineering and major construction.

Many Australian companies are well-equipped to supply such consulting services, but to-date our firms have shown limited appetite for the higher risks involved in developing country projects.

Much safer to limit your innovation and agility to pressing the government for "reforms" that cut the tax you pay or allow you to drive harder bargains with your employees.

But not to worry. There are Japanese and South Korean firms who'll be happy to eat the Chinese lunch we don't fancy.

*Ross Gittins is the Herald's economics editor.*

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## TaiShang

*Russia engages with China on THAAD
August 12, 2016*

*Moscow suggests US rethinks NK threat*

China and Russia are discussing a proposal to prevent the further escalation of tensions on the Korean Peninsula, the Russian ambassador told media, which experts say indicates that the two countries are growing closer in the face of the deployment of a US missile defense system that has altered the fragile geopolitical balance in Northeast Asia.

The Russian Embassy in Beijing confirmed the proposal with the Global Times on Thursday, adding that it was mentioned by Russian Ambassador Andrey Denisov in an interview with Russian media.

*China's foreign ministry has yet to confirm the existence of a joint proposal.*

No other details have been released, but Denisov told Russian newspaper Izvestia that Russia believes the US and South Korea should at least control the scale of their joint military drills if they cannot cancel the exercises.

He said tensions have escalated to a severe level and Russia believes measures should be taken to at least prevent it from further deteriorating, Izvestia reported Thursday.

Russia suggested the US, Japan and South Korea re-evaluate the threat level of North Korean military capabilities, which they could be exaggerating, Denisov told Izvestia.

* "The deployment of the THAAD (Terminal High-Altitude Area Defense) system is driving China and Russia to move closer to each other to counter pressure from the US and the unstable factors on the Korean Peninsula,"* Wu Enyuan, a research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times.

Wu said it is too early to say whether the situation would slide into "a new Cold War," but the THAAD deployment has broken the fragile strategic balance in the geopolitically volatile Northeast Asian region.

"It raises the possibility of confrontation to a new level, with the US, South Korea and Japan on one side and China, Russia and North Korea on the other. If anything happens, conflicts are likely to spill beyond the Korean Peninsula," he noted.

South Korea declared last month it had agreed to deploy the controversial US missile defense system as a countermeasure against North Korean weapons tests, drawing strong criticism from China and Russia.

*The THAAD system, when implemented with the AN/TPY-2 long-range radar, is capable of spying on activities in neighboring countries' territory. It also dampens China's strategic nuclear missile deterrence capacity, a key part of China's national security.*

* "China could always increase the number of its nuclear weapons and improve their performance to rebuild the strategic balance between China and the US ruined by the THAAD deployment,"* Wu Riqiang, an international affairs scholar at the Renmin University of China, wrote to the Global Times on Thursday. "However, through this process, Sino-South Korean relations will be seriously damaged."

*THAAD in Japan?*

Meanwhile, the Japanese Defense Ministry is inclined to hasten efforts to deploy a THAAD battery in the wake of North Korea's recent missile launches, Chosun Ilbo quoted NHK as saying.

A North Korean Rodong missile fell into Japan's exclusive economic zone on August 3.

"We cannot eliminate the possibility of another THAAD deployment in Japan in the future. However, by releasing the news at this time, Japan wishes to kill two birds with one stone - to show its support for the US deployment in South Korea and to test China's and Russia's response to its own purchase of a THAAD battery," Da Zhigang, director of the Institute of Northeast Asian Studies at the Heilongjiang Provincial Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times on Thursday.

Wu Enyuan said that with THAAD deployments in South Korea and Japan, US moves will be interpreted as an attempt to forge an "Asian NATO."

The THAAD deployment has damaged mutual trust between China and South Korea, and China and the US.

On Thursday, US Missile Defense Agency director James D. Syring said in South Korea that the THAAD deployment is strictly meant to protect South Korea and will not be used against China.* He added that THAAD in the Korean Peninsula will not be part of the US' wider missile defense network, the Korean Herald reported. But analysts said China is unconvinced by the statement alone.*

China is deeply suspicious that the US' pivot to Asia strategy is aimed at containing it.

"The key to resolving issues on the Korean Peninsula rests on the US. If the US is willing to extend an olive branch to North Korea like it did to Iran, tensions would be eased in a week. Neither China nor Russia holds such a huge sway on North Korea," Da said.

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## Jlaw

ahojunk said:


> .
> Just impacting only Samsung is not enough.
> 
> Being nice is not good, as SK may take it as a sign of weakness!
> 
> China should tighten more political, economic and social "screws" against SK.
> 
> By "killing the chicken to scare the monkeys", Japan will also take notice!



China should side with Japan on the comfort women issue. From other sources there is a strong indication the Korean comfort women were actually pimped by korean men to the Japanese.



terranMarine said:


> I know I know bro, lets hope he will be more wisely before handing out bans just because some hybrid started to complain. Anyway things are looking good for China, Russia and DPRK when it comes down to chess pieces. But i gotta give it to you a tectonic bomb in JP?  Brilliant. I myself would not hesitate to use our Megaton toys if someone dares to even lay a finger on our Mainland.



He's been harsh on me in the past because that fake SE Asian jap complained, fake Latino complained, and BBQ the Viet troller complained. 

Complained and I got banned even though what I said were the truth.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> But *while politicians talk big in Western countries, in China they tend to act big*



Wow, he sums up nicely.



ahojunk said:


> Making the initiative a reality would involve much spending on infrastructure such as sea ports, airports, railways, highways, oil and gas pipelines, power stations and special economic zones.



And he well captures the "money walk, talk talks" rule.

Australia has been surprisingly hostile to "anything" Chinese, recently, including their disgusting media insulting Team China members in the most blatantly racist manner. Low-life whatevers!

This teaches one lesson (that we should have learned so far already): They will respect power only.

Now, back to topic.

China adds a fourth branch to its European OBOR route.

**

*China-Europe freight train adds new route to Russia's Chelyabinsk*
(Xinhua) August 14, 2016





A cargo train left Zhejiang in eastern China on Saturday for Russia's Chelyabinsk, the latest freight train service China has launched to boost trade ties along the ancient Silk Road. [Photo: zjnews.8531.cn]

HANGZHOU, Aug. 13 -- A cargo train left east Chinese province of Zhejiang on Saturday for Russia's Chelyabinsk, the latest freight train service China has launched to boost trade ties along the ancient Silk Road.

The X8024 freight train leaving from Yiwu at 4:18 p.m. Saturday is the fourth route connecting the eastern Chinese export hub with cities in Europe, Central and Western Asia.

The weekly train service will travel 7,200 kilometers in eight days before reaching Chelyabinsk, a logistic and transit hub for Russia in the Ural Mountains region.

This compares with 35 days for a shipping route connecting Yiwu and Chelyabinsk.

Trade between Yiwu and Russia amounted to 507.4 million U.S. dollars in 2015. Daily package delivery from Yiwu to Russia stands at 23,000, or roughly half of all the e-commerce orders Russia has placed in Zhejiang Province.

*This newly opened freight train service takes only two thirds of the time used for road transportation and costs only one fifth of air transportation.*

The freight train service is also expected to extend to Russian's capital Moscow in the future.

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## TaiShang

*Interview: Belt & Road Initiative to foster China-Serbia win-win cooperation: Serbian expert*
Xinhua | 2016-08-14





Chinese President Xi Jinping (C, front) attends a luncheon hosted by Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic (R, front) and Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic (L, front) in Belgrade, Serbia, June 19, 2016. (Xinhua/Ding Lin)


by Wang Huijuan, Nemanja Cabric

BELGRADE, Aug. 14 (Xinhua) -- China-proposed Belt and Road initiative offers new perspective for the growth of the friendly ties between China and Serbia towards achieving win-win results in various fields, Zivadin Jovanovic, a Serbian expert on international relations, told Xinhua in a recent interview.

*Jovanovic served as Yugoslavian foreign minister from 1998 to 2000 and is now president of the think-tank "Belgrade Forum for a World of Equals" founded in 2000.*

Jovanovic said people in both Serbia and China shared in history a tradition of fighting against aggression and oppression and defending national dignity.

*"Today our two countries share the same basic objectives, such as peaceful coexistence, independent internal and foreign policy, support to United Nations and respect for the international law," he said, adding that both countries acknowledge the need to build a new world order based on the principle of sovereign equality of all nations.*

Both countries have "stable friendship" and are "trusted partners" in various fields, the Serbian expert said, citing *China's solidarity with Serbia during the 1999 NATO bombing of then Yugoslavia as well as China's support for Serbia following the 2014 floods that struck Serbia hard as examples.*

He also noted that in a move to honor the Serbia-China friendship, just two months ago,* Belgrade named the street in front of the future Chinese cultural center after the ancient Chinese philosopher Confucius (551-479 BC) and named the area around the center as "Square of Serbian-Chinese Friendship".*

Serbia and China in June agreed to upgrade their relations to a comprehensive strategic partnership. "This is a natural result of long-lasting friendship, comprehensive cooperation and mutual trust between the two countries," Jovanovic said, stressing that it presents an iron foundation for accelerating bilateral cooperation in the 21st century.

"Multidimensional, global initiative Belt and Road has opened new unprecedented perspectives for expansion and intensification of cooperation," he said.

When it comes to bilateral economic cooperation, Jovanovic listed some of the major achievements within the framework of the Belt and Road initiative -- *Mihajlo Pupin Bridge, Kostolac thermal power plant, the E763 highway, the Serbia-Hungary railway and Smederevo Steel Mill.*

In his opinion, the Belt and Road initiative expands, widens and intensifies Sebia-China cooperation.

The initiative provides an opportunity to expand and modernize Serbia's regional and European infrastructure and will help Serbia activate its existing resources towards achieving modern and sustainable development, Jovanovic said.

Moreover, it will help Serbia adapt its strategy of development and distribution of international cooperation towards its own potentials, priorities and new realities in the world, the Serbian expert said.

Serbia and China "in spite of geographic distance, incomparable size of territories, population and economic potentials, do respect each other, do share values of peace stability and win-win cooperation," therefore they have wide area for bilateral and international cooperation, he added.

"Thanks to cooperation with China, especially within the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative, Serbia is resolving some long-standing economic difficulties, accelerating economic and technological development and reinforcing partnership position in Europe," Jovanovic said, adding, "China, on the other side, can always be confident in Serbia that it will be its stable partner in Europe, particularly in the process of the implementation of the Belt and Road Initiative."

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## TaiShang

*China makes headway on Belt and Road, urbanization*
Xinhua, August 17, 2016

Progresses in the Belt and Road Initiative and China's urbanization drive are among the bright spots in the country's efforts to fulfill targets in its development plan.

Capacity, infrastructure and education cooperation with countries under the Belt and Road Initiative have made substantial progress, said Zhao Chenxin, spokesperson for the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) at a news briefing.

ADVANCES IN BELT AND ROAD

*The total value of bilateral industrial cooperation has exceeded 100 billion U.S. dollars under the framework. So far, Chinese companies have built 46 cooperation zones in countries along the routes, while China's Ministry of Education has inked over 60 deals with those countries.*

*In 2015, nearly half of the international students in China came from countries along the routes, Zhao said. Nearly 400,000 foreign students from 202 countries and regions came to study in China in 2015, data showed.*

Meanwhile, China has built railways, highways and ports along the routes while signing MOUs with its neighbors and partners.

Launched in late 2013, the initiative is an umbrella term for the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road. It will be a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes.

PROGRESS ON URBANIZATION GOALS

China has also made significant progress in shanty-town renovation and building affordable housing and public transportation, the spokesperson said at the same briefing.

*As of the end of June, the country had met 66.9 percent of its annual shanty-town renovation target, 8.2 percentage points higher than the same period last year.*

As for urban affordable housing projects, 97.9 percent of the annual target had been reached as of the end of June, Zhao said.

In the first half of 2016, city and inter-city railway networks grew rapidly. Rail transit in 25 cities reached a length of more than 3,300 kilometers, and another 3,800 km was under construction in 37 cities. The intercity traffic network hit 1,250 km.

Governments of all provincial regions have released their reform plans on the household registration system.

The central government is supporting 37 towns to innovate infrastructure investment financing and help medium and small cities and towns to improve infrastructure weak points in water, heat and gas supply as well as sewage and garbage treatment.

Zhao also said that China will strive to foster new pillars of economic growth and deepen international cooperation in its urbanization drive.

CHALLENGING CAPACITY CUTS AHEAD

However, overcapacity reduction casts a shadow over the Chinese economy. China still faces daunting challenges in reducing capacity for the rest of 2016, despite an acceleration in July, according to Zhao.

By the end of July, capacity reduction in China's steel sector totaled just 21 million tonnes, or 47 percent of the annual target, Zhao said. This marked substantial progress, as China had only completed about 30 percent of planned cuts for the year by the end of June, but it is still far from the target.

To fulfil the annual target, local governments were urged to be more resolute in cutting capacity and introducing measures such as accountability systems, public exposure and blacklisting, according to Zhao.

China had reached 38 percent of annual coal capacity reduction targets as of the end of July, Zhao added.

Zhao attributed the default largely to a spike in steel and coal prices this year and local governments' reluctance to cut capacity in order to protect jobs and local economies.

Despite the default, Zhao said China's overcapacity cutting efforts will not drag on the country's growth or harm the world economy.
*
Overcapacity is a global problem resulting from the 2008 financial crisis and occurs in many industries such as crude oil, iron ore and auto making, causing shale oil and gas stockpiles in the United States and iron ore overproduction in Australia, Zhao said when responding to concerns raised by a Reuters correspondent.*

Even in the steel sector, overcapacity is not just a "China problem." "Many countries are confronting the problem. It is a global issue," he said. *In 2014, China's rate of capacity utilization of crude steel was about the same as the world's average of 73.4 percent.*

Moreover, China's iron and steel products are mainly for the domestic market to support the country's urbanization, manufacturing and infrastructure development.

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## 艹艹艹

(Beijing) – China National Petroleum Corp., one of the country's largest gas and oil producers, has started developing a second pipeline to import 15 million metric tons of crude oil each year from Russia, official People's Daily reported on August 16.

The 940-kilometer pipeline connects Mohe, the northernmost Chinese county bordering Russia, and Daqing, the country's largest oil field by output in the northeastern province of Heilongjiang. The project is due to be finished in January 2018 and it runs parallel to another US$ 25 billion pipeline linking the town of Skovorodino in Siberia to the world's biggest consumer of energy.

Once completed, the pipeline will double the annual volume of crude imports from Russia to 30 million metric tons, CNPC said in May.

Russia, which overtook Saudi Arabia as the world's largest oil producer in 2009, is one of China's top sources of crude.

*CNPC commences laying second China-Russia oil pipeline in NE*
Source:Global Times Published: 2016/8/17 23:08:39
0


China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC), the nation's biggest oil and gas producer, has started laying the second oil pipeline of the China-Russia crude oil pipeline project in Northeast China's Heilongjiang Province.

The pipeline, which runs from Mohe to Daqing, both in Heilongjiang, will be 940 kilometers long and is expected to have an annual capacity of 15 million tons, according to a report published by the People's Daily on Wednesday.

The project is likely to be completed by the end of October 2017, and is expected to start operations on January 1, 2018. 

The energy relationship between China and Russia, one of the world's biggest oil producers, has deepened since Russia started sending oil supplies to China in 2011, Bloomberg reported in May. 

China's imports of Russian crude jumped nearly 30 percent in 2015, making Russia the second-largest supplier to China on an annual basis after Saudi Arabia, noted the report.

China signed an agreement with the Russian government to expand crude oil trade cooperation in March 2013. 

In June 2013, CNPC signed a contract with Rosneft to increase Russian crude supplies to China. Under the contract, starting from January 2018, Rosneft is to increase supplies of crude to China via the pipeline being constructed now. 

The second pipeline project was approved by the National Development and Reform Commission, China's top economic planner, in March 2014.

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## TaiShang

long_ said:


> China's imports of Russian crude jumped nearly 30 percent in 2015, making Russia the second-largest supplier to China on an annual basis after Saudi Arabia, noted the report.



In the final month of 2015, in fact, Russia overtook the KSA in crude shipments. This was also the case in the first three months of 2016. I anticipate Russia to become the top supplier of crude in 2016.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

*China’s recent announcement of an increase of its humanitarian support for the Syrian people and that it would provide additional training to the Syrian forces comes as a “headache for the US,” according to the American media.*

“As if the multi-party war in Syria weren’t complicated enough, it now appears that the *People’s Republic of China has decided to take a more active role in the conflict*, providing increased humanitarian assistance and possibly military training to Syrian forces,” says the New York-based news website The Fiscal News.

The website notes that Beijing’s announcement comes just a day after Russia announced that it had launched strikes against Daesh from an airbase inside the Islamic Republic of Iran.

“Combined, these two events create a major foreign policy conundrum for the Obama administration, as three of the countries, most resistant to the US on the global stage, appear to be teaming up against a non-state actor that has frustrated the US for years,” it further notes.

This point of view is echoed by The New York Times, which says that Russia now has “the ability to strike from virtually all directions in a region where it has been reasserting its power — from Iran, from warships in the Caspian Sea, from its base in the Syrian coastal province of Latakia and now from the Mediterranean.”

The newspaper however notes that the decision to fly the long-range bombers from Iran rather than from Moscow is even “far more important militarily”: if it continues, this “could result in a more devastating air war over a long period of time.”

The outlet explains that “while both Russia and the US say they share the goal of defeating the Islamic State group (Daesh) in Syria, they are waging parallel but separate wars against the militant group while simultaneously backing opposite sides in the conflict between Russia’s ally, President Bashar al-Assad of Syria, and his other opponents, including rebels backed by the US.”

Meanwhile on Wednesday Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that he US has acknowledged that it has been unable to separate the opposition in Syria from terrorists.

"Regrettably, our partners in fact acknowledged that they cannot do this," Lavrov said.

"But we are not making a tragedy out of this. The directions of our work now allow switching to a coordinated and a more efficient cooperation in the fight against terrorists," Russia’s top diplomat added.

Earlier in August Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov also said that the US was unprepared to separate terrorist organizations from the moderate opposition in Syria.

“The Syrian government has embarked on the separation of terrorists from the moderate opposition and the civilians.. Our colleagues in Washington were not ready to do for political reasons, and did not intend to do throughout the past months in defiance of the signals and the promises they gave us,” Ryabkov added.

Russian-US partnership in Syria cannot be genuine as long as Washington puts forward additional demands, according to the diplomat.

“We have repeatedly drawn the Americans’ attention to the fact that after each successful round of closed negotiations and after reaching certain agreements, Washington begins putting forward additional requirements that violate the entire balance and prevent progress immediately afterward,” Ryabkov then said.

He added that “there are regular Russia-US contacts along various lines. Both foreign and defense ministries are involved in these contacts. 
“We attribute as unflattering the assessments we hear from our American colleagues,” he said.

“Washington has been completely inconsistent in its actions in Syria, putting forward demands to stop fighting terrorists as soon as the Syrian army has achieved real success in fight against terrorists”, Ryabkov said.

As soon as the Syrian government and the armed forces have achieved, with Russian support, a real progress in the fight against terrorists, the Americans began to use unacceptable methods, demanding, in essence, the cessation of the fight against terrorists.

US Secretary of State John Kerry made the promise to separate the groups as part of the understandings underlying the February 22 cease-fire, but never delivered on it.

A central issue in the US-Russian cease-fire negotiations in February was the fact that the opposition groups supported by the CIA operate in close proximity to and full cooperation with units of al-Nusra Front.

Last year the former US ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford (2010-2014), admitted that the Obama administration had long “looked the other way while the [al-]Nusra Front and armed groups on the ground, some of which are getting help from the US, have coordinated in military operations against the regime.”

Now, backed with US weaponry, these same groups are a significant barrier to upcoming peace talks in Geneva

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## T-Rex

*F-35 Stealth Fighter Prepares for the Unthinkable: War with China or Russia*





Kris Osborn

April 27, 2016

The Air Force F-35 is using “open air” ranges and computer simulation to practice combat missions against the best Chinese and Russian-made air-defense technologies – as a way to prepare to enemy threats anticipated in the mid-2020s and beyond.

The testing is aimed at addressing the most current air defense system threats such as Russian-made systems and also focused on potential next-generation or yet-to-exist threats, Harrigian said.

Air Force officials have explained that, looking back to 2001 when the JSF threat started, the threats were mostly European centric – Russian made SA-10s or SA-20s. Now the future threats are looking at both Russian and Chinese-made and Asian made threats, they said.

“They have got these digital SAMS (surface-to-air-missile-systems) out there that can change frequencies and they are very agile in how they operate. being able to replicate that is not easy,” Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Harrigian, Director of the F-35 Integration Office, told Scout Warrior in an interview.

Surface threats from air defenses is a tough problem because emerging threats right now can see aircraft hundreds of miles away, service officials explained.

Furthermore, emerging and future Integrated Air Defense Systems use faster computer processors, are better networked to one-another and detect on a wider range of frequencies. These attributes, coupled with an ability to detect aircraft at further distances, make air defenses increasingly able to at times detect even stealth aircraft, in some instances, with surveillance radar.

_(This piece first appeared in Scout Warrior here) _

While the Air Force aims to prepare for the unlikely contingency of a potential engagement with near-peer rivals such as Russia or China, Harrigian explained that there is much more concern about having to confront an adversary which has purchased air-defense technology from the Russians or Chinese. Harrigian emphasized that, while there is no particular conflict expected with any given specific country, the service wants to be ready for any contingency.

Harrigian explained that the F-35 is engineered with what developers call “open architecture,” meaning it is designed to quickly integrate new weapons, software and avionics technology as new threats emerge.

“One of the key reasons we bought this airplane is because the threats continue to evolve - we have to be survivable in this threat environment that has continued to develop capabilities where they can deny us access to specific objectives that we may want to achieve. This airplane gives us the ability to penetrate, deliver weapons and then share that information across the formation that it is operating in,” Harrigian explained. 

While training against the best emerging threats in what Harrigian called “open air” ranges looks to test the F-35 against the best current and future air defenses – there is still much more work to be done when it comes to anticipating high-end, high-tech fast developing future threats. This is where modeling and simulation play a huge part in threat preparation, he added.

“The place where we have to have the most agility is really in the modeling and simulation environment - If you think about our open air ranges, we try to build these ranges that have this threats that we expect to be fighting. Given the pace at which the enemy is developing these threats - it becomes very difficult for us to go out and develop these threats,” Harrigan explained.

The Air Force plans to bring a representation of next-generation threats and weapons to its first weapons school class in 2018.
In a simulated environment, F-22s from Langley AFB in Virginia could train for combat scenarios with an F-35 at Nellis AFB, Nevada, he said.

The JSF’s Active Electronically Scanned Arrays, or AESA’s, the aircraft is able to provide a synthetic aperture rendering of air and ground pictures. The AESA also brings the F-35 electronic warfare capabilities, Harrigian said.

Part of the idea with F-35 modernization is to engineered systems on the aircraft which can be upgraded with new software as threats change. Technologies such as the AESA radar, electronic attack and protection and some of the computing processing power on the airplane, can be updated to keep pace with evolving threats, Harrigian said.

Engineered to travel at speeds greater than 1,100 miles per hour and able to reach Mach 1.6, the JSF is said to be just as fast and maneuverable at an F-15 or F-16 and bring and a whole range of additional functions and abilities.

Overall, the Air Force plans to buy 1,763 JSF F-35A multi-role fighters, a number which will ultimately comprise a very large percentage of the service’s fleet of roughly 2,000 fighter jets. So far, at least 83 F-35As are operational for the Air Force.

*4th Software Drop:*

Many of the JSF’s combat capabilities are woven into developmental software increments or “drops,” each designed to advance the platforms technical abilities. There are more than 10 million individual lines of code in the JSF system.

While the Air Force plans to declare its F-345s operational with the most advanced software drop, called 3F, the service is already working on a 4th drop to be ready by 2020 or 2021. Following this initial drop, the aircraft will incorporate new software drops in two year increments in order to stay ahead of the threat.

The first portion of Block IV software funding, roughly $12 million, arrived in the 2014 budget, Air Force officials said.

Block IV will include some unique partner weapons including British weapons, Turkish weapons and some of the other European country weapons that they want to get on their own plane, service officials explained.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...r-prepares-the-unthinkable-war-china-or-15956

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

China should not confine itself on SCS and eastern sea, we have to take care of global issues, it's in China interest to have a peaceful and stable Middle east, US should not see that as a threat to their global hegemony.

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## UKBengali

Chinese J-20s and J-31s will be waiting to blow these F-35s out of the sky before they even have the chance to face the SAMs.

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## UKBengali

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China should not confine itself on SCS and eastern sea, we have to take care of global issues, it's in China interest to have a peaceful and stable Middle east, US should not see that as a threat to their global hegemony.



China should still tread carefully as it is not truly free of Western economic and military blackmail just yet.

From around 2025-2030 onward, then China should be free to do as it pleases as it should then be around the level of
the US in world global power.

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## hoangsa74

UKBengali said:


> Chinese J-20s and J-31s will be waiting to blow these F-35s out of the sky before they even have the chance to face the SAMs.


J20 would not be a match even for f15 silent eagle

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

UKBengali said:


> China should still tread carefully as it is not truly free of Western economic and military blackmail just yet.
> 
> From around 2025-2030 onward, then China should be free to do as it pleases as it should then be around the level of
> the US in world global power.



Indeed, we haven't anything provocative as what US did to us...yet.

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## UKBengali

hoangsa74 said:


> J20 would not be a match even for f15 silent eagle



How did you figure this out genius?

J-20 was optimised from the ground up to have a stealth airframe and has the best avionics and missiles that China can
produce. It will also soon have the 5th generation WS-15 engine installed.

F-15 SE is no more than a 4th gen air-frame with some attempt to apply stealth features. It's engine is an enhanced 4th generation. Apart from avionics and missiles it is outclassed by the J-20 in every aspect.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

> The Air Force F-35 is using “open air” ranges and computer simulation to practice combat missions against the best Chinese and Russian-made air-defense technologies – as a way to prepare to enemy threats anticipated in the mid-2020s and beyond



US is not the only one to have combat simulation, I guess this how China use the combat simulation to optimize and design the J-20, this is just an on going game, as long as China has talented people and resource, China can always run another simulation and let computer to plot the best solution for China in the incoming war.

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## X-2.

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China should not confine itself on SCS and eastern sea, we have to take care of global issues, it's in China interest to have a peaceful and stable Middle east, US should not see that as a threat to their global hegemony.


USA has no balls to confront any power like China ,Russia and directly Pakistan or even iran ! 
West and USA knows damn well the future power of the world is China and they all know dam well that they can't control china by force other then cutting it down *economically,peaceful regions will bring more business and revenue for china and this will never digest by west*

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## ebrahym

hoangsa74 said:


> J20 would not be a match even for f15 silent eagle


with all due respect Silent Eagle is far from realization and will be the only 4th gen platform to compete with 5th gen Realm


UKBengali said:


> F-15 SE is no more than a 4th gen air-frame with some attempt to apply stealth features. It's engine is an enhanced 4th generation. Apart from avionics and missiles it is outclassed by the J-20 in every aspect


i dont know what do you expect from a fighter if not missiles and avionics
but comparing a 5th gen platform to a 4th gen upgrade who is not into realization yet is not sane
J-20 will be a great asset but its mass production is not realized yet
f-22 is very large in numbers in the sky and alone can take on China presently
however what happens in future is up for speculations


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## UKBengali

ebrahym said:


> i dont know what do you expect from a fighter if not missiles and avionics
> but comparing a 5th gen platform to a 4th gen upgrade who is not into realization yet is not sane
> J-20 will be a great asset but its mass production is not realized yet
> f-22 is very large in numbers in the sky and alone can take on China presently
> however what happens in future is up for speculations



Your post is a little confusing to be honest.

I gather you also agree that the J-20 will outclass F-15 SE?

True the US fleet of F-22 can take on the whole Chinese air-force now but this assumes that there will be
just an air-battle between Chinese fighters and US F-22s. In reality the Chinese will launch thousands of ballistic
and cruise missiles to destroy the F-22s and the air-fields that host them.

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## ebrahym

UKBengali said:


> I gather you also agree that the J-20 will outclass F-35 SE?


if you mean F-15SE than know that it is not even in development phase yet and comparing a product in light production and one on paper is above my mind
as for F-35 , than j-20 and f-35 both are equally far from Skies yet so no comparison there
about current war Us is likely to dominate the air
you see SAMs capabilities regarding F-22 are questionable among both realms
all i want to say is future is up for speculation but if we speak now
USAF is likely to dominate all skies but realize that PLAAF is also prepared for "defensive Flights"
hope you are getting the picture


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

X-2. said:


> USA has no balls to confront any power like China ,Russia and directly Pakistan or even iran !
> West and USA knows damn well the future power of the world is China and they all know dam well that they can't control china by force other then cutting it down *economically,peaceful regions will bring more business and revenue for china and this will never digest by west*



Well said, peace will bring prosperity to Middle east, China is interested on business deal and not war.

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## cirr

Deal with this - J-20H 

Max range: 3500km
Combat range: 1200-1500km
Engines: twin WS-15
Max speed: 2.2M, cruising: speed 1.4M
RCS: 0.01m2
Internal weapons bay: main 4.5mX2.4mX0.8m, side 3.2mX1.0X0.6m
Weapons: PL-21 A2A missile etc
Avionics
etc etc

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## hoangsa74

UKBengali said:


> *How did you figure this out genius*?
> 
> J-20 was optimised from the ground up to have a stealth airframe and has the best avionics and missiles that China can
> produce. It will also soon have the 5th generation WS-15 engine installed.
> 
> F-15 SE is no more than a 4th gen air-frame with some attempt to apply stealth features. It's engine is an enhanced 4th generation. Apart from avionics and missiles it is outclassed by the J-20 in every aspect.


Because the U.S have been producing stealth planes since the 1970's. All of a sudden china is telling the world that it is better than the u.s? Only in your Chinese fan boy dream.

*Because the U.S have been producing stealth planes since the 1970's. All of a sudden china is telling the world that it is better than the u.s? Only in your Chinese fan boy dream. 





The F-15 Silent Eagle's frontal rcs is the same as the F-35. The aircraft has a Radar Cross Section Reduction Package, which includes radar-absorbent materials, form-fitting fuel tanks, and vertical stabilizers at a radar-reducing 15 degree cant. Silent Eagle even has a pair of internal weapons bays built into the fuselage to hide Sidewinder and AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, JDAM satellite guided bombs, and small diameter bomb. The lack of missiles and drop tanks hanging off the wings and fuselage improves the aircraft's radar-cross section. Silent Eagle also features plenty of non-stealth upgrades including a powerful AESA radar, an infrared search and track capability for air-to-ground and air-to-air combat, and an updated electronic warfare suite. Boeing touts Silent Eagle's greater situational awareness, faster jamming, and accurate threat location.

Click to expand...

*

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## UKBengali

hoangsa74 said:


> Because the U.S have been producing stealth planes since the 1970's. All of a sudden china is telling the world that it is better than the u.s? Only in your Chinese fan boy dream.
> 
> *Because the U.S have been producing stealth planes since the 1970's. All of a sudden china is telling the world that it is better than the u.s? Only in your Chinese fan boy dream.
> 
> *



Not very bright are you? When did I or China ever claim that China is better than the US in making fighter planes?

If the F-15SE has the same RCS as F-35 then this makes the F-35 look rather bad for a 5th generation plane.

While the F-22 will be competitive with J-20, the F-35 will have little chance against it.

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## GR!FF!N

ebrahym said:


> F-15SE than know that it is not even in development phase yet



F-15SE is already developed.

















And its been offered to various countries(mainly SK and Japan).Now Israel showed interest to buy 1 sqd of F-15 SE.

read this..

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...52/boeings-stealthy-f-15-silent-eagle-israel/

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## X-2.

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Well said, peace will bring prosperity to Middle east, China is interested on business deal and not war.


Let the cpec fulfill,if the next 5 years go smoothly then after 10 years we will see things very differently

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## Daniel808

ebrahym said:


> J-20 will be a great asset but its mass production is not realized yet



Already in Production.
LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production)














Indeed, Truly a beast in the Sky

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## UKBengali

Daniel808 said:


> Already in Production.
> LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, Truly a beast in the Sky



Once the WS-15 engine is installed, then the J-20 will be competitive against F-22.

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## Daniel808

UKBengali said:


> Once the WS-15 engine is installed, then the J-20 will be competitive against F-22.



Deadly Dragon
Lol

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## UKBengali

Daniel808 said:


> Deadly Dragon
> Lol


 
China seems to have finally become competitive with the US with weapons like J-20 fighter, Type-055 cruiser and the upcoming Type-095 SSN. These weapons will be produced in large numbers.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> China seems to have finally become competitive with the US with weapons like J-20 fighter, Type-055 cruiser and the upcoming Type-095 SSN. These weapons will be produced in large numbers.



And the Type 003 supercarrier after a decade.

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## T-Rex

*I believe the US has around 180 F-22s. Even if we consider the Chinese J-20 as a match for the F-22 how long will it take for China to produce enough J-20s to tackle the 180 US F-22s? China is in a bind to complete its WS-15 development and must start mass production of J-20 as soon as possible.*

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## UKBengali

T-Rex said:


> *I believe the US has around 180 F-22s. Even if we consider the Chinese J-20 as a match for the F-22 how long will it take for China to produce enough J-20s to tackle the 180 US F-22s? China is in a bind to complete its WS-15 development and must start mass production of J-20 as soon as possible.*



2025?

@ChineseTiger1986

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> 2025?
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986



2017-2018 should be test phase for the J-20B, and 2019-2020 should be the mass production phase.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> 2017-2018 should be test phase for the J-20B, and 2019-2020 should be the mass production phase.



How many J-20 do you expect China to produce?

I estimate around 300.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> How many J-20 do you expect China to produce?
> 
> I estimate around 300.



Some source suggesting 700 or more, since the J-20 will become the successor of the J-15.

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## T-Rex

UKBengali said:


> 2025?
> 
> @ChineseTiger1986


*
By that time the US will have additional 300 F-35s. So, how does it solve the challenge faced by China?*

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Some source suggesting 700 or more, since the J-20 will become the successor of the J-15.



It think the numbers will ultimately depend on the threat that China faces.

China is well capable to produce 700 by 2030 if the need arises. We need to take into account that the J-31 will also be available as a cheaper option and that will be not that much inferior to the J-20 once it has 5th gen engines. J-20/J-31 will be produced in a hi/low mix.

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## T-Rex

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Some source suggesting 700 or more, since the J-20 will become the successor of the J-15.


*
Can China produce at least 50 if a war breaks out?*

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## ~Phoenix~

hoangsa74 said:


> J20 would not be a match even for f15 silent eagle



Ha! Grow up,kid... Su-27s,J-10s,J-11s can take care of F-15s...



GR!FF!N said:


> Now Israel showed interest to buy 1 sqd of F-15 SE.



NO WAY,THATS A VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY BAD NEWS! But anyways,Egypt has Dassault Rafaels to take care of them...Rafaels can even take down F-35s!





Russian MiG-29s,Su-27s,Su-30s,MiG-35s,Su-33s and Chinese FC-1,J-10s,J-11s,J-15s can take care of American F-15s,F-16s and F/A-18s.
Russian Su-35s and Chinese J-35s will take down American F-35s.
Russian Su-50 PAKFA,FGFA and Chinese J-20s will take down American F-22 Raptor

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## ChineseTiger1986

T-Rex said:


> *Can China produce at least 50 if a war breaks out?*



Definitely, once China masters the technology, then the mass production shouldn't be a problem.



UKBengali said:


> It think the numbers will ultimately depend on the threat that China faces.
> 
> China is well capable to produce 700 by 2030 if the need arises. We need to take into account that the J-31 will also be available as a cheaper option and that will be not that much inferior to the J-20 once it has 5th gen engines. J-20/J-31 will be produced in a hi/low mix.



SAC has lost all the bet against CAC in both air and navy.

Now SAC has to sell the J-31 to the foreign countries with a very low price including the TOT.

Don't be surprised that the tag price of the J-31 is about the same as the F-16.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> SAC has lost all the bet against CAC in both air and navy.
> 
> Now SAC has to sell the J-31 to the foreign countries with a very low price including the TOT.
> 
> Don't be surprised that the tag price of the J-31 is about the same as the F-16.



Sad J-31 is cool looking fighter, I will wait until J-31 ver 2.0 come out before make judgement about it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Sad J-31 is cool looking fighter, I will wait until J-31 ver 2.0 come out before make judgement about it.



Unfortunately, J-31 has been dominated by J-20 in both air and navy.

The recent decision made by the PLAN is a huge blow to SAC. So maybe J-31 will find a way to shine in other countries.

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## ~Phoenix~

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> SAC has lost all the bet against CAC in both air and navy.
> 
> Now SAC has to sell the J-31 to the foreign countries with a very low price including the TOT.
> 
> Don't be surprised that the tag price of the J-31 is about the same as th



Thats great news...to us...
J-31 is at par with the F-35.And except Pakistan,Bangladesh,Ukarine and Iran to be the first customers! 



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Sad J-31 is cool looking fighter, I will wait until J-31 ver 2.0 come out before make judgement about it.



Well,but we can get it,right?

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## ChineseTiger1986

~Phoenix~ said:


> Thats great news...to us...
> J-31 is at par with the F-35.And except Pakistan,Bangladesh,Ukarine and Iran to be the first customers!



J-31 is also a very good fighter, but it just got overshadowed by an even more superior fighter like J-20.

Maybe Syria and Egypt can also take the consideration if they cannot afford the PAK FA.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> J-31 is also a very good fighter, but it just got overshadowed by an even more superior fighter like J-20.
> 
> Maybe Syria and Egypt can also take the consideration if they cannot afford the PAK FA.



J31 does have a good future ahead of it. 

SAC just needs to up its game..even if it has to loose money on the first cutomer...which will be PAF.

The old wisdom says..._*give the latern away for free to sell the oil later. 
*_
I would not be suprised if SAC ends up selling around 500 of J31 in the coming two decades..

WS13E is coming along fine... the so called engine problems have more to do with internal PLAAF demand than the production quality...WS15 will come online alonng with J20B..so all is good.

Besides...it is not just an aircraft vs. aircraft that is going change the balance of power in NE asia..its much more than that...and China is in very good position now...only great things ahead of us.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Sinopakfriend said:


> J31 does have a good future ahead of it.
> 
> SAC just needs to up its game..even if it has to loose money on the first cutomer...which will be PAF.
> 
> The old wisdom says..._*give the latern away for free to sell the oil later.
> *_
> I would not be suprised if SAC ends up selling around 500 of J31 in the coming two decades..
> 
> WS13E is coming along fine... the so called engine problems have more to do with internal PLAAF demand than the production quality...WS15 will come online alonng with J20B..so all is good.
> 
> Besides...it is not just an aircraft vs. aircraft that is going change the balance of power in NE asia..its much more than that...and China is in very good position now...only great things ahead of us.



They have to make very thin profit by selling the J-31, but if they can sell more, then they can make their money back.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

~Phoenix~ said:


> Well,but we can get it,right?



Every nation is looking for 4 gen. stealth fighters, J-31 will be an affordable fighter for Bangladesh

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## ~Phoenix~

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> J-31 is also a very good fighter, but it just got overshadowed by an even more superior fighter like J-20.
> 
> Maybe Syria and Egypt can also take the consideration if they cannot afford the PAK FA.



Syria is not in quite of a position for 5th generation stuff you know.
Egypt is currently awaiting full delivery of its Dassault Rafaels and MiG-35s,so it might be a lil bit long untill they buy more stuff!

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> They have to make very thin profit by selling the J-31, but if they can sell more, then they can make their money back.



Exactly, my brother. As I said there is potential of 500+ J31 sales...then there is support and spare parts business.. SAC must make sure that PAF goes for J31..even if they have to take a loss on the deal. PAF is globally respected airforce...so if PAF goes for J31...then ME and Asian countries will go for it.

Besides..there is always the Chinese credit lines for the potential customers...This project must not end up as demonstrator only. SAC needs to up its game. The build methodology of this plane is truly revolutionary compared to J-11 series...

But then you know much more than myself.

Wish SAC all the best in making this great fighter a true success story.

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## ~Phoenix~

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Every nation is looking for 4 gen. stealth fighters, J-31 will be an affordable fighter for Bangladesh



Thats what I wanted to say,but we should get a few squadrons of 4+ birds before moving on to 5th gen ones...

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## GR!FF!N

~Phoenix~ said:


> NO WAY,THATS A VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY BAD NEWS! But anyways,Egypt has Dassault Rafaels to take care of them...Rafaels can even take down F-35s!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian MiG-29s,Su-27s,Su-30s,MiG-35s,Su-33s and Chinese FC-1,J-10s,J-11s,J-15s can take care of American F-15s,F-16s and F/A-18s.
> Russian Su-35s and Chinese J-35s will take down American F-35s.
> Russian Su-50 PAKFA,FGFA and Chinese J-20s will take down American F-22 Raptor





Man,you need to grow up and stop reading propaganda stuff..By the way,why its a bad news?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

~Phoenix~ said:


> Thats what I wanted to say,but we should get a few squadrons of 4+ birds before moving on to 5th gen ones...



If Bangladesh is not facing a serious threat then 4+ birds can fix the current situation but think of China if you need 5 gen , we will make your a friendship price.

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## ~Phoenix~

GR!FF!N said:


> Man,you need to grow up and stop reading propaganda stuff..By the way,why its a bad news?



Israel is our blood enemy,brother.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> If Bangladesh is not facing a serious threat then 4+ birds can fix the current situation but think of China if you need 5 gen , we will make your a friendship price.



Well,theres no way we will stand a chance against India and we can easily take care of Myanmar with what we have...And we are China's largest arms buyer and an ally,so they'll be nice towards us...

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## AMDR

F-35 production is (as of now) projected to stop in 2037 at 2,443 F-35s spread across the USAF, USMC, and USN. Production peaks in 2023 at 170-180 aircraft per year at around $80 Million per. As of today close to 200 F-35s are in the US inventory. As part of the USAF 2035 FOC they envision an advanced variant of the F-35 (which they call the F-35D) to by operational by then. Whether that variant will be included in the 2443 total production run I don't know.


USAF only graphic. USMC and USN numbers not accounted for here. F-X replaces the F-22.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

~Phoenix~ said:


> Well,theres no way we will stand a chance against India and we can easily take care of Myanmar with what we have...And we are China's largest arms buyer and an ally,so they'll be nice towards us...



Bangladesh is China 2nd all weather friend , I think China will be glad to offer what Bangladesh need.

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## ebrahym

GR!FF!N said:


> F-15SE is already developed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And its been offered to various countries(mainly SK and Japan).Now Israel showed interest to buy 1 sqd of F-15 SE.
> 
> read this..
> 
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...52/boeings-stealthy-f-15-silent-eagle-israel/





Daniel808 said:


> Already in Production.
> LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, Truly a beast in the Sky


my bad
but still both have yet to hit open skies
nevertheless both are from two different categories
and comparing them is still not justified
nevertheless i can not find F-15 SE specs in internet if anyone would be kind enough to post engine ,aionics and its stealth


----------



## jhungary

Most people do not understand how a 4th gen aircraft can kill a 5th gen.

Keyword. Network Warfare.

Network warfare is not a future technology, anything within a battlefield is connected to one another. You can see what I saw even you and I were 70 miles apart. The same technology are being applied in aviation technology as we speak.

How? I do not know, and even if I do know, I don't think I can tell you how it work. But I will just tell you what I know. When I was training in a Bradley IFV, we got this tiny little thing called fire solution computer, it does not just lit up the target we can see within our own scope, it also lit up target my wingman saw and what the helicopter above pick up. I can fire a TOW missile and that missile can hit a target I cannot see nor did I lock on.

And that was in 2003. Before we got Wireless TOW missile and computer are running at 750MHz.

Today, legacy fighter don't need to see a stealth fighter to hit it, as long as they were picked up by AWACS/Ground Radar or other Stealth Fighter, you can still hit it without you seeing or locking at it.


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## UKBengali

jhungary said:


> Most people do not understand how a 4th gen aircraft can kill a 5th gen.
> 
> Keyword. Network Warfare.
> 
> Network warfare is not a future technology, anything within a battlefield is connected to one another. You can see what I saw even you and I were 70 miles apart. The same technology are being applied in aviation technology as we speak.
> 
> How? I do not know, and even if I do know, I don't think I can tell you how it work. But I will just tell you what I know. When I was training in a Bradley IFV, we got this tiny little thing called fire solution computer, it does not just lit up the target we can see within our own scope, it also lit up target my wingman saw and what the helicopter above pick up. I can fire a TOW missile and that missile can hit a target I cannot see nor did I lock on.
> 
> And that was in 2003. Before we got Wireless TOW missile and computer are running at 750MHz.
> 
> Today, legacy fighter don't need to see a stealth fighter to hit it, as long as they were picked up by AWACS/Ground Radar or other Stealth Fighter, you can still hit it without you seeing or locking at it.



Thanks for that revelation as we did not already know that!

All that matters is that one-on-one, a 5th gen fighter will nearly always beat a 4th gen fighter.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> J-31 is also a very good fighter, but it just got overshadowed by an even more superior fighter like J-20.
> 
> Maybe Syria and Egypt can also take the consideration if they cannot afford the PAK FA.



Do you seriously think the PAK-FA that is not even a stealth aircraft would have any chance against J-31?

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Do you seriously think the PAK-FA that is not even a stealth aircraft would have any chance against J-31?



This subject is too sensitive, and I don't wanna spark too many unpleasant debates with our Russian friends.

If any country cannot afford for the 5th gen stealth aircrafts, then J-31 is definitely a viable option for anyone.

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## Deepika Maheshwari

~Phoenix~ said:


> Israel is our blood enemy,brother.
> 
> 
> 
> Well,theres no way we will stand a chance against India and we can easily take care of Myanmar with what we have...And we are China's largest arms buyer and an ally,so they'll be nice towards us...



Bangladesh is China's largest arms buyer?

http://www.dawn.com/news/1241157

Thought it was Pakistan! They account for 37% of China's arms export



UKBengali said:


> Thanks for that revelation as we did not already know that!
> 
> All that matters is that one-on-one, a 5th gen fighter will nearly always beat a 4th gen fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you seriously think the PAK-FA that is not even a stealth aircraft would have any chance against J-31?



Bengalis are the brightest folks, then why are you acting like a... well whatever! 

What I am already finding too _weird _in this discussion is that people are comparing fighter jets without any idea of what they are meant to do ie their role. J-20 and J-31 are two totally diferent planes in totally different roles. One is a large plane initially meant for ground attack and deep penetration strikes and other is a mid sized plane.

Then again, US or rather any air-force flies planes in formation and mixes and matches the planes for tactical advantage. Heck! India in an exercises with the US had shown an interesting tactic of mixing Mig-21 with Su30MKI for great effect. Generations is more like bunch of features and different generations in different countries had different meaning!

Lastly, Stealth! everyone is so enamored by stealth! What they are missing is that J-31, J-20, F-22, PAK-FA are stealthy from one/few particular _view(s) _usually frontal and to few bands of radio energy. In a real war, you will not be going one on one and there will be fusion of radar information, radars possibly using different bands, not to mention with AWACS and perhaps sea based radar systems, if the theatre is in SCS. This is too complex and I doubt even the think tanks like RAND are capable of correctly predicting the outcomes, nevermind amatures. That said, there are very few countries that have more experience of war than US and Russia. China is still to prove her chops here.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Bengalis are the brightest folks, then why are you acting like a... well whatever!
> 
> What I am already finding too _weird _in this discussion is that people are comparing fighter jets without any idea of what they are meant to do ie their role. J-20 and J-31 are two totally diferent planes in totally different roles. One is a large plane initially meant for ground attack and deep penetration strikes and other is a mid sized plane.
> 
> Then again, US or rather any air-force flies planes in formation and mixes and matches the planes for tactical advantage. Heck! India in an exercises with the US had shown an interesting tactic of mixing Mig-21 with Su30MKI for great effect. Generations is more like bunch of features and different generations in different countries had different meaning!
> 
> Lastly, Stealth! everyone is so enamored by stealth! What they are missing is that J-31, J-20, F-22, PAK-FA are stealthy from one/few particular _view(s) _usually frontal and to few bands of radio energy. In a real war, you will not be going one on one and there will be fusion of radar information, radars possibly using different bands, not to mention with AWACS and perhaps sea based radar systems, if the theatre is in SCS. This is too complex and I doubt even the think tanks like RAND are capable of correctly predicting the outcomes, nevermind amatures. That said, there are very few countries that have more experience of war than US and Russia. China is still to prove her chops here.



Stop trying to be clever as you are a complete unknown on this forum.


Now get some status before butting into conversations that you have no business getting into.

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## Deepika Maheshwari

vtnsx said:


> J20 is a garbage plane. You don't need to do anything, that plane is just going to go down on its own and crash.


I won't say that. China has been working on airframe design for quite sometime now. Not the kind of experience that likes of Russia and US has but still.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Stop trying to be clever as you are a complete unknown on this forum.
> 
> 
> Now get some status before butting into conversations that you have no business getting into.



It looks weird, why this quote has been under my name?

Maybe the forum got some technical issues?

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## Deepika Maheshwari

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It looks weird, why this quote has been under my name?
> 
> Maybe the forum got some technical issues?


Or maybe he edited the quote block for the reason best known to him.


----------



## Basel

Sinopakfriend said:


> J31 does have a good future ahead of it.
> 
> SAC just needs to up its game..even if it has to loose money on the first cutomer...which will be PAF.
> 
> The old wisdom says..._*give the latern away for free to sell the oil later.
> *_
> I would not be suprised if SAC ends up selling around 500 of J31 in the coming two decades..
> 
> WS13E is coming along fine... the so called engine problems have more to do with internal PLAAF demand than the production quality...WS15 will come online alonng with J20B..so all is good.
> 
> Besides...it is not just an aircraft vs. aircraft that is going change the balance of power in NE asia..its much more than that...and China is in very good position now...only great things ahead of us.



SAC really have to up capabilities of J-31 if they want to sell it to PAF, because Turkey wants Pakistan to join its TFX program which will have western tech in it.


----------



## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It looks weird, why this quote has been under my name?
> 
> Maybe the forum got some technical issues?



No idea.

Do you notice how these Indians try to imitate the writing style of Americans and try
to use their slang expression as well?

These people are beyond pathetic.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> SAC has lost all the bet against CAC in both air and navy.
> 
> Now SAC has to sell the J-31 to the foreign countries with a very low price including the TOT.
> 
> Don't be surprised that the tag price of the J-31 is about the same as the F-16.



Where did you get this information from?

I am not sure whether foreign countries will be much interested
in a plane that China does not even operate itself.

A fighter plane needs constant upgrades, be it in engines, radar and other avionics
to stay competitive during it's 30-40 year life-span. It will be very
difficult for this to happen if the J-31 was an export-only product.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Where did you get this information from?
> 
> I am not sure whether foreign countries will be much interested
> in a plane that China does not even operate itself.
> 
> A fighter plane needs constant upgrades, be it in engines, radar and other avionics
> to stay competitive during it'seems 30-40 year life-span. It will be very
> difficult for this to happen if the J-31 was an export-only product.



It is now well known among the Chinese military forums that J-31 is losing to J-20 in the PLAN bid for the successor of J-15.

The PLAAF will also purchase J-31, since it will be the replacement for J-10, but the PLAN prefers J-20 in term of the offensive capability.

BTW, J-31 will be sold like 50 million per unit, so you guys are not interested?

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is now well known among the Chinese military forums that J-31 is losing to J-20 in the PLAN bid for the successor of J-15.
> 
> The PLAAF will also purchase J-31, since it will be the replacement for J-10, but PLAN prefers J-20 in term of the offensive capability.
> 
> BTW, J-31 will be sold like 50 million per unit, so you guys are not interested?



If PLAAF purchases J-31 then there will be no problem.

At 50 million a unit of course BAF will be interested in procuring
them.

But are you sure it will be this cheap? The level of technology in the J-31
like AESA radars and twin 5th generation engines will not come
cheap. I was guessing it will come to around the 75 million mark with the
J-20 at around 100 milion a unit.

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## Joe Shearer

UKBengali said:


> Stop trying to be clever as you are a complete unknown on this forum.
> 
> 
> Now get some status before butting into conversations that you have no business getting into.



Actually @Deepika Maheshwari , you are right. This is an entirely spurious conversation, between those who don't have the money to buy, and don't have the background to assess their needs, but try and cut a dash by throwing around names and displaying their familiarity with technology, and those who don't have the authority to sell or even get close to the process, and are busy pursing their lips with judicious faces on the Internet, trying to decide what price is right for their country and its industry. 

My suggestion is not to interrupt - you will not get this amusement even from paid shows - but to listen and to take notes. This is a master class on how not to conduct a discussion.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> If PLAAF purchases J-31 then there will be no problem.
> 
> At 50 million a unit of course BAF will be interested in procuring
> them.
> 
> But are you sure it will be this cheap? The level of technology in the J-31
> like AESA radars and twin 5th generation engines will not come
> cheap. I was guessing it will come to around the 75 million mark with the
> J-20 at around 100 milion a unit.



It will definitely be cheaper as SAC wants to make a comeback by selling more J-31.

So they will start by making extremely thin profit in hope to push more sale.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It will definitely be cheaper as SAC wants to make a comeback by selling more J-31.
> 
> So they will start by making extremely thin profit in hope to push more sale.



With the relative cheapness of the J-31 and China's ability to provide financing options, 
I don't see why BAF won't be placing a large order next decade.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> With the relative cheapness of the J-31 and China's ability to provide financing options,
> I don't see why BAF won't be placing a large order next decade.



Just like the Type 052D, it is much cheaper than we initially thought.

It costs less than 700 million to build, so even China plans to sell it at 1 billion per unit, it is a lot of profit.

So for those friendly countries, China will probably sell the Type 052D with a friendly price of 700-800 million per unit.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Just like the Type 052D, it is much cheaper than we initially thought.
> 
> It cost less than 700 million to build, so even China plans to sell it at 1 billion per unit, it is a lot of profit.
> 
> So for those friendly countries, China will probably sell the Type 052D with a friendly price of 700-800 million per unit.



I can see BD Navy being interested in procurement of around 4 Type-52D next decade.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> I can see BD Navy being interested in procurement of around 4 Type-52D next decade.



The Type 052D is in fact more advanced than the Arleigh Burke Flight IIA, but its full potential has been restricted by its smaller tonnage as a CODOG ship.

Now the COGAG Type 055 will unleash all sophisticatedness of the Type 052D with a further upgrade, but for many countries, the COGAG ship like Type 055 is too expensive to maintain, even Japan and South Korea can only maintain a small number of those inferior COGAG destroyers.

For many countries, the Type 052D is definitely a much more viable option. I think Bangladesh/Pakistan/Iran could opt for this ship.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 052D is in fact more advanced than the Arleigh Burke Flight IIA, but its full potential has been restricted by its smaller tonnage as a CODOG ship.
> 
> Now the COGAG Type 055 will unleash all sophisticatedness of the Type 052D with a further upgrade, but for many countries, the COGAG ship like Type 055 is too expensive to maintain, even Japan and South Korea can only maintain a smaller number of those inferior COGAG destroyers.
> 
> For many countries, the Type 052D is definitely a much more viable option. I think Bangladesh/Pakistan/Iran could opt for this ship.



I think you are underestimating how powerful the Type-052D can be in actual practice

It has 64 VLS cells in total. Say 32 carry the 200km range HQ-9 SAMS, then 16 cells can quad pack the SD-10
SAM version for a total of 64 50km range missiles. You will then have 16 cells for anti-ship missiles.
What matters for Pakistan and BD is that these ships will outclass the current or planned Indian ships by a significant margin.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> I think you are underestimating how powerful the Type-052D can be in actual practice
> 
> It has 64 VLS cells in total. Say 32 carry the 200km range HQ-9 SAMS, then 16 cells can quad pack the SD-10
> SAM version for a total of 64 50km range missiles. You will then have 16 cells for anti-ship missiles.
> What matters for Pakistan and BD is that these ships will outclass the current or planned Indian ships by a significant margin.



Against the USN, the Type 052D lacks a bit of firepower due its smaller tonnage as a CODOG ship.

But against other navies, the Type 052D has sufficient firepower to overwhelm them.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Against the USN, the Type 052D lacks a bit of firepower due its smaller tonnage as a CODOG ship.
> 
> But against other navies, the Type 052D has sufficient firepower to overwhelm them.



Other interesting thing about BD is that a single Type-052D destroyer can provide air defence for half of BD due to the country's small size. A destroyer like this can also be used to provide air-defence to major cities like Dhaka and Chittagong simultaneously during war.

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## alaungphaya

It will be a generation until the U.S. can be matched in conventional airpower.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Other interesting thing about BD is that a single Type-052D destroyer can provide air defence for half of BD due to the country's small size. A destroyer like this can also be used to provide air-defence to major cities like Dhaka and Chittagong simultaneously during war.



In order to boost China's arm export, China needs to offer more competitive products such as the Type 052D and Type 093B, not only J-31.

The Type 054A and Type 039C are good products, but they face too much competition.

When China wants to sell those strategic leveled weapons is not for making money, but to increase its influence and ties with other nations.

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## UKBengali

alaungphaya said:


> It will be a generation until the U.S. can be matched in conventional airpower.



Don't think China is interested in matching the US in conventional air-power anyways.

As long as China can defend itself and can make sure the US cannot interfere with it's merchant
ships, China will be happy not to have to spend any more money on it's military.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> In order to boost China's arm export, China needs to offer more competitive products such as the Type 052D and Type 093B, not only J-31.
> 
> The Type 054A and Type 039C are good products, but they face too much competition.
> 
> When China wants to sell those strategic leveled weapons is not for making money, but to increase its influence and ties with other nations.



A major issue with the Type-054A and Type-39C is that there is a fair bit of performance
difference between them and Western systems.

China selling the Type-093B? Indians would be crapping their pants as it would likely outclass
anything they have.

If China wants to be taken seriously as a rival to US then it would have to start offering modern systems
to friendly countries.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Don't think China is interested in matching the US in conventional air-power anyways.
> 
> As long as China can defend itself and can make sure the US cannot interfere with it's merchant
> ships, China will be happy not to have to spend any more money on it's military.
> 
> 
> 
> The other issue with the Type-054A and Type-39C is that there is a fair bit of performance
> difference between them and Western systems.
> 
> China selling the Type-093B? Indians would be crapping their pants as it would likely outclass
> anything they have.
> 
> If China wants to be taken seriously as a rival to US then it would have to start offering modern systems
> to friendly countries.



The Type 093B is the "Type 052D" in China's sub fleet, and China will also produce 12-18 just like the Type 052D.

Apart from Pakistan and Iran, I don't think China has many other customers left for the Type 093B. Maybe Brazil and Argentina, but these two aforementioned countries superstitiously prefer the western weapons anyway.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Type 093B is the "Type 052D" in China's sub fleet, and China will also produce 12-18 just like the Type 052D.
> 
> Apart from Pakistan and Iran, I don't think China has many other customers left for the Type 093B. Maybe Brazil and Argentina, but these aforementioned countries prefer the western weapons anyway.



BD won't be getting Type-093B but Pakistan would be interested if it could afford them.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> BD won't be getting Type-093B but if Pakistan would be interested if it could afford them.



Maybe BD wants to opt for the Type 039C?

Since Pakistan always wants to acquire the nuclear sub, so I assume they will try to acquire some once the budget problem has been solved.

I also assume Iran is the next potential buyer after Pakistan.

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## UKBengali

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Maybe BD wants to opt for the Type 039C?
> 
> Since Pakistan always wants to acquire the nuclear sub, so I assume they will try to acquire some once the budget problem has been solved.
> 
> I also assume Iran is the next potential buyer after Pakistan.



Yep that sub is a favourite for BD
to procure before end of decade.

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## ChineseTiger1986

UKBengali said:


> Yep that sub is a favourite for BD
> to procure before end of decade.



The Type 093B is definitely niche compared to the Type 039C.

When China intends to sell the Type 093B, it can also establish a stronger military tie with those buyers, even more than Russia leased their SSN to India.

For the current geopolitical landscape, China needs to establish some military alliance, since the US is planning to gang up on China.

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## FairAndUnbiased

Deepika Maheshwari said:


> That said, there are very few countries that have more experience of war than US and Russia. China is still to prove her chops here.



China doesn't fight much but has a high win rate.

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## CAPRICORN-88

FairAndUnbiased said:


> China doesn't fight much but has a high win rate.


Americans claimed that they won the KOREAN WAR but why is North Korean Regime still around then?

Now new evidences have emerged that General MacArthur lied to the US Congress about high enemies casualties in order to overcome the low morale of the US and its allies fighting forces after Chinese volunteers entered the war resulting in US Operation RETREAT that resulted in many US soldiers being captured or frost to death.

Mao's China had warned MacArthur NOT to cross the Yalu River but MacArthur in his arrogance did because he thought he could recaptured Peking for KMT based in Taiwan. Hence the entry of Chinese Volunteers force into Korean although they were fighting USA brave soldiers armed to their teeth with only bugles, spears, swords and captured WW2 Japanese rifles with 2 or 3 bullets. That was the REAL history NOT those written by the USA appointed historians.

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## BoQ77

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> Americans claimed that they won the KOREAN WAR but why is North Korean Regime still around then?



Korean war, in principle, is still going on.


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## xunzi

cirr said:


> Deal with this - J-20H
> 
> Max range: 3500km
> Combat range: 1200-1500km
> Engines: twin WS-15
> Max speed: 2.2M, cruising: speed 1.4M
> RCS: 0.01m2
> Internal weapons bay: main 4.5mX2.4mX0.8m, side 3.2mX1.0X0.6m
> Weapons: PL-21 A2A missile etc
> Avionics
> etc etc


That is one nasty aircraft specification!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

vtnsx said:


> I'm sorry to break your heart. J20 is garbage and you know it. Not even battle proven. And you think it rivals with an F16. ahhaahahhaahahahah!!



You don't break my heart at all, you just amuse me, it's good for you to think that way, hope it will comfort you, And we don't even need to certify J-20 as battle proven because we have super computer to simulate the battle field as US did with F-35

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## BoQ77

One day, we could decide who win a war after some online games.



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> You don't break my heart at all, you just amuse me, it's good for you to think that way, hope it will comfort you, And we don't even need to certify J-20 as battle proven because we have super computer to simulate the battle field as US did with F-35


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

BoQ77 said:


> One day, we could decide who win a war after some online games.



F-22 and F-35 were born from computer complex simulation with all war scenario and @vtnsx asked J-20 to be battle proven.

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## T-Rex

UKBengali said:


> Other interesting thing about BD is that a single Type-052D destroyer can provide air defence for half of BD due to the country's small size. A destroyer like this can also be used to provide air-defence to major cities like Dhaka and Chittagong simultaneously during war.


*
Why does BD need air defence? I thought india was providing security to BD. Besides, BD is surrounded by her 'all weather ally' from three sides, so what's the need for defence forces? I'm sure Myanmar can be handled by our 'all weather ally' if we request them. Shouldn't that farther cement our relation with our 'all weather ally"? After all there's not a state on this planet we 'love' and 'trust' more than our 'all weather ally'. *

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## GR!FF!N

ebrahym said:


> my bad
> but still both have yet to hit open skies
> nevertheless both are from two different categories
> and comparing them is still not justified
> nevertheless i can not find F-15 SE specs in internet if anyone would be kind enough to post engine ,aionics and its stealth



http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=844

It flew in 2010..But yes,both are in different category.


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## BoQ77

The first F-35 in Asia goes to Japan


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## T-Rex

*We're eagerly waiting to see how it performs against the Chinese J-20. I hope uncle sam won't keep us waiting for too long.*

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## BoQ77

T-Rex said:


> *We're eagerly waiting to see how it performs against the Chinese J-20. I hope uncle sam won't keep us waiting for too long.*



Let me correct you. Hope China wont keep us waiting for long.


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## T-Rex

BoQ77 said:


> Let me correct you. Hope China wont keep us waiting for long.


*
China hasn't kept you waiting. China has not only built an artificial island, she has also built a military base on the island. Wake up from your cowardly dream!*

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## BoQ77

T-Rex said:


> *We're eagerly waiting to see how it performs against the Chinese J-20. I hope uncle sam won't keep us waiting for too long.*



You want to see F-35 vs J-20



BoQ77 said:


> Let me correct you. Hope China wont keep us waiting for long.



I remind you J-20 isn't available, while F-35 is



T-Rex said:


> *China hasn't kept you waiting. China has not only built an artificial island, she has also built a military base on the island. Wake up from your cowardly dream!*



You derailed to artificial island, and military base on the island.
While all of us know that, even when J-20 is available, they never deploy J-20 there.


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## T-Rex

BoQ77 said:


> You want to see F-35 vs J-20
> 
> 
> 
> I remind you J-20 isn't available, while F-35 is.


*
J-20 is not available to you, we know that.*





BoQ77 said:


> You derailed to artificial island, and military base on the island.
> While all of us know that, even when J-20 is available, they never deploy J-20 there.


*
I didn't say anything irrelevant, the SCS issue is at the heart of all this.*

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## TaiShang

*'Zheng'ou' freight train services enhance ties with countries along Silk Road*
(Xinhua) 15:39, August 20, 2016




A lorry runs in the Container Terminal of Zhengzhou Railway in Zhengzhou, Central China's Henan province, August 18, 2016. Since the railway line came into use in 2013, "Zheng'ou" (Zhengzhou-Xinjiang-Europe) freight train services have been providing solutions for the international logistics industry and promoting international trade ties and economic development with countries along the Silk Road.[Photo/Xinhua]




Photo taken on August 18, 2016 shows the Container Terminal of Zhengzhou Railway in Zhengzhou, Central China's Henan province. Since the railway line came into use in 2013, "Zheng'ou" (Zhengzhou-Xinjiang-Europe) freight train services have been providing solutions for the international logistics industry and promoting international trade ties and economic development with countries along the Silk Road. [Photo/Xinhua]




Vehicles are seen at the Container Terminal of Zhengzhou Railway in Zhengzhou, Central China's Henan province, August 18, 2016. Since the railway line came into use in 2013, "Zheng'ou" (Zhengzhou-Xinjiang-Europe) freight train services have been providing solutions for the international logistics industry and promoting international trade ties and economic development with countries along the Silk Road. [Photo/Xinhua]




A lorry runs in the Container Terminal of Zhengzhou Railway in Zhengzhou, Central China's Henan province, August 18, 2016. Since the railway line came into use in 2013, "Zheng'ou" (Zhengzhou-Xinjiang-Europe) freight train services have been providing solutions for the international logistics industry and promoting international trade ties and economic development with countries along the Silk Road. [Photo/Xinhua]






A freight train leaves the Container Terminal of Zhengzhou Railway for Hamburg, Germany, in Zhengzhou, Central China's Henan province, August 18, 2016. Since the railway line came into use in 2013, "Zheng'ou" (Zhengzhou-Xinjiang-Europe) freight train services have been providing solutions for the international logistics industry and promoting international trade ties and economic development with countries along the Silk Road. [Photo/Xinhua]

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## gambit

UKBengali said:


> Not very bright are you? When did I or China ever claim that China is better than the US in making fighter planes?


China is not even on a par with US in aviation.



UKBengali said:


> If the F-15SE has the same RCS as F-35 then this makes the F-35 look rather bad for a 5th generation plane.


Bullshit.

First, the frontal RCS of any aircraft, other than prop jobbers, is the lowest of all aspects, so to make the frontal RCS of the F-15 to near that of the F-35 says much about the design of the F-15 and nothing negative about the F-35.



UKBengali said:


> While the F-22 will be competitive with J-20, the F-35 will have little chance against it.


The J-20 is DOA. The PAK is also DOA. Essentially, any non-US 'stealth' fighter, even from allies, is DOA. The F-35 *WILL* eat the J-20 for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

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## initial_d

I think The J 20 is like Mig 25 foxbat back in The 70's and 80's, myth only, too exagerated


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## UKBengali

gambit said:


> The J-20 is DOA. The PAK is also DOA. Essentially, any non-US 'stealth' fighter, even from allies, is DOA. The F-35 *WILL* eat the J-20 for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.



OK, how did you come to this conclusion?

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## ahojunk

Xi offering nations 'ride' on Silk Road
By AN BAIJIE (China Daily)

*President urges proactive role in implementing projects along routes to provide a 'sense of gain'*

China is willing to give other countries "a ride" as it renews ties, via the Belt and Road Initiative, with nations along the old Silk Road routes, President Xi Jinping said on Wednesday.

As the second-largest economy in the world, China should be "more proactive" in dealing with other countries, Xi told a meeting attended by government officials, entrepreneurs and scholars.

The president encouraged Chinese companies to invest in countries along the routes of the Belt and Road Initiative, also known as the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.

He also said China welcomes investment from those countries.

According to Xi, more than 100 countries and global organizations have participated in China's Belt and Road Initiative, and more than 20 countries have worked with China in production capacity cooperation in such areas as railway construction and nuclear power.

The president urged the implementation of Belt and Road projects to ensure that the countries involved have "a sense of gain".

The export of China's production and construction capacity could support the Belt and Road countries to push forward industrialization and will help to stabilize the world economy, he said.

*The Silk Road Economic Belt is a land-based route from China through Central Asia and Russia to Europe. The 21st Century Maritime Silk Road is a strategic route through the Strait of Malacca to India, the Middle East and East Africa.*

The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by Xi in 2013, began to take shape in 2014 with a focus on infrastructure.

Xi has made state visits to a number of countries, including the Czech Republic, Serbia, Poland and Uzbekistan, along the Belt and Road routes this year. More than 30 countries and international organizations have signed agreements and memorandums of understanding with China on jointly implementing the Belt and Road strategy.

As part of the Belt and Road projects, *freight trains have made more than 2,000 trips from China to Europe and back on 39 rail lines*, according to the Foreign Ministry.

Wang Licheng, board chairman of Hangzhou-based Holley Group, said at the meeting that the Thai-Chinese Rayong Industrial Zone, jointly developed by Wang and his partners in Thailand, has *created more than 20,000 jobs for people* in Thailand's east coastal region.

The company plans to build an occupational school near the industrial zone to train more skilled workers, a proposal that has been welcomed by Thai authorities, he said.

The entrepreneur suggested that the construction of industrial parks abroad should be set as China's national strategy, with supportive policies established to encourage private companies to expand business overseas.

Liu Weidong, director of the Belt and Road Strategy Institute of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said that through the Belt and Road strategy, China could allocate global resources and provide services for the whole world.

Wang Yiwei, an expert on European studies with Renmin University of China in Beijing, said that through the Belt and Road projects, China could share its development experience with other countries as well as find new markets for its production capacity.

Countries in the Central and Eastern Europe region are eager to develop ties with China to attract more Chinese investment, and President Xi's state visits to the CEE countries in March and June have brought results, he said.

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## ~Phoenix~

UKBengali said:


> Do you seriously think the PAK-FA that is not even a stealth aircraft would have any chance against J-31?



You high?



Deepika Maheshwari said:


> Bangladesh is China's largest arms buyer?
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1241157
> 
> Thought it was Pakistan! They account for 37% of China's arms export



Well,I read it somewhere that Pakistan makes most of that stuff with ToT,but we just buy and rarely make stuff ourselves with ToT.As you see,almost all our Navy,Airforce and Army stuff and equipments comes directly from China.




Deepika Maheshwari said:


> Bengalis are the brightest folks, then why are you acting like a... well whatever!




Well,you can't just relate the Bangladeshis in PDF as "brightest folks" and hes probably high,so ignore him.



Deepika Maheshwari said:


> India in an exercises with the US had shown an interesting tactic of mixing Mig-21 with Su30MKI for great effect.



Weren't Indian MiG-21s retired?



vtnsx said:


> J20 is a garbage plane. You don't need to do anything, that plane is just going to go down on its own and crash.



If Chinese planes are garbage,then Vietnamese planes are dog poop.
Put your hatred towards China somewhere else,probably the toilet.




CAPRICORN-88 said:


> Americans claimed that they won the KOREAN WAR but why is North Korean Regime still around then?
> 
> Now new evidences have emerged that General MacArthur lied to the US Congress about high enemies casualties in order to overcome the low morale of the US and its allies fighting forces after Chinese volunteers entered the war resulting in US Operation RETREAT that resulted in many US soldiers being captured or frost to death.
> 
> Mao's China had warned MacArthur NOT to cross the Yalu River but MacArthur in his arrogance did because he thought he could recaptured Peking for KMT based in Taiwan. Hence the entry of Chinese Volunteers force into Korean although they were fighting USA brave soldiers armed to their teeth with only bugles, spears, swords and captured WW2 Japanese rifles with 2 or 3 bullets. That was the REAL history NOT those written by the USA appointed historians.



We Asians know that,its what the Worship-America-And-Capitalism folks who should know the REAL history!



T-Rex said:


> *Why does BD need air defence? I thought india was providing security to BD. Besides, BD is surrounded by her 'all weather ally' from three sides, so what's the need for defence forces? I'm sure Myanmar can be handled by our 'all weather ally' if we request them. Shouldn't that farther cement our relation with our 'all weather ally"? After all there's not a state on this planet we 'love' and 'trust' more than our 'all weather ally'. *




"all weather ally" - Perfect word lol



BoQ77 said:


> You want to see F-35 vs J-20



No,F-22 vs J-20...The F-35 is too weak for the J-20,it should be fixed against Su-35...

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## hoangsa74

UKBengali said:


> OK, how did you come to this conclusion?


The U.S have been building stealth planes since the 1970's. F-117, b2, f22. F-35 is built based on massive knowledge of experience from building the previous stealth planes. What experience does j20 and pakfa are built based on? Nothing. Bangladesh or any country out there would dump the j-20 or pakfa on any heart beat if they could buy the f-35


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## ~Phoenix~

hoangsa74 said:


> The U.S have been building stealth planes since the 1970's. F-117, b2, f22. F-35 is built based on massive knowledge of experience from building the previous stealth planes. What experience does j20 and pakfa are built based on? Nothing. Bangladesh or any country out there would dump the j-20 or pakfa on any heart beat if they could buy the f-35



J-31 comes at 50 million a pop.J-20 and PAK FA come at 75-100 million per unit.And whats the cost of F-22 and B-2?
And Russia has been building since '80s...Only China lacks experience.


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## UKBengali

~Phoenix~ said:


> J-31 comes at 50 million a pop.J-20 and PAK FA come at 75-100 million per unit.And whats the cost of F-22 and B-2?
> And Russia has been building since '80s...Only China lacks experience.




80% of stealth is shaping and the US has given the shape away for world to see.

China has plenty of experience in airplane design as it has both the J-10 and JF-17 designs to it's name.
It has also reverse engineered the SU-27 airframe as the J-11. The big question mark with J-20 is when the
5th generation WS-15 engine would be ready, as without this it will stand little chance in duelling against
F-22 across the whole spectrum.

Yes the J-20 is likely to not be as good as F-22 but unlikely that the difference is so great that
F-22 would have an overwhelming advantage.

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## CAPRICORN-88

~Phoenix~ said:


> J-31 comes at 50 million a pop.J-20 and PAK FA come at 75-100 million per unit.And whats the cost of F-22 and B-2?
> And Russia has been building since '80s...Only China lacks experience.


F-22 approx. USD 355 million a piece.



BoQ77 said:


> Korean war, in principle, is still going on.



Most unfortunate, you are right in this case.

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## gambit

UKBengali said:


> 80% of stealth is shaping and the US has given the shape away for world to see.


That is true. But making a *FUNCTIONAL* fighter is in a different league.



UKBengali said:


> China has plenty of experience in airplane design as it has both the J-10 and JF-17 designs to it's name.


Plenty of experience does not automatically make China the equal.

For starter, the US have a *CONTINUOUS* presence in aviation since the birth of aviation, and we are talking about powered and manned vehicles, not passive flights like balloons and gliders.

Next, what make US aviation industry vibrant is the same reason what make the US automotive industry vibrant -- competition. At one point, the US actually had more major aviation companies, as in whole vehicles, than automotive companies. Counting minor companies, then the car industry have more. North American, Beechcraft, Boeing, etc, were churning out varieties of models just as fast as the Big Three auto companies.

Next, military aircrafts are even more unique and demanding. There is only one customer -- the government. The car can be built to have planned obsolescence, purposely limited useful life, but not the airplane and definitely not the bomber and the fighter aircrafts. Styling matters in the car, but irrelevant for the airplane. The B-52 is likely to be the first aircraft to be literally 100 yrs old by the time of its retirement. Not the B-52 design, but the actual individual aircrafts themselves. There are probably a few aircrafts around the world that are 100 yrs old, but we are talking about an entire fleet that have been continuously operating since its inception.

China's aviation may have had plenty of assist and her accomplishments are impressive, but it will take varieties of product lines over time before China can be considered a peer to the US.



UKBengali said:


> Yes the J-20 is likely to not be as good as F-22 but unlikely that the difference is so great that F-22 would have an overwhelming advantage.


Unlikely ? Your opinion is no better than one that says likely. If experience is included, then the opinions of aviation experts who said likely weighs more. In war, a difference of less than 10% means _'the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat'_. It is likely that the difference in 'stealth' between the F-22 and the J-20 is more than 10% in favor of the F-22. This is not a car race where competitors repeatedly face each other yr after yr. This is literally a death match.

And the J-20 is DOA.

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## UKBengali

gambit said:


> And the J-20 is DOA.



That is only your opinion and you cannot back that up.

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## Mo12

lets hope the war wont go nuclear as this will affect neighbouring countries like India


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## gambit

initial_d said:


> I think The J 20 is like Mig 25 foxbat back in The 70's and 80's, myth only, too exagerated


My take is that the J-20 will be a better product than the MIG-25.

When I was on the F-16, I attended a technical presentation where we saw the MIG-25's technical information and analyses from 1976. Essentially, the MIG-25 was, and still is, a 'piece of shit', as how a few engineers put it 40 yrs ago. This has nothing to do with Western bigotry against anyone. If there is a redeeming capability, it would be the engines and even that is being generous since the engines had to be practically rebuilt if the jet went over 80% in a single sortie. On the F-16, if the jet went Mach, all we do is perform a few extra tests on the oil sample, which is taken after every flight anyway. Not even the SR-71 required engine rebuilt after Mach.

The J-20 may have its own myths and exaggerations, but that is no different than any other aircraft out there. I can be impressed negatively (MIG-25) or positively (F-16). If we ever get a technical glimpse of the J-20, we will be positively impressed by the Chinese.


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## BoQ77

We recognize that every model design of China has impressive specs...
In paper.

Even their J10, J15 model are suffering many accidents recently.
And actually, many models operate underpowered as J31, J20, Y20,...


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## Ultima Thule

BoQ77 said:


> We recognize that every model design of China has impressive specs...
> In paper.
> 
> Even their J10, J15 model are suffering many accidents recently.
> And actually, many models operate underpowered as J31, J20, Y20,...


its depend on maintenance and also not forget pilot error, birds strike and lots more reason not for faulty air frame, wait 2 or 3 year and than picture will change totally J-20 with WS-15, J-31 with WS-13E and Y-20 with WS-20

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## BoQ77

pakistanipower said:


> its depend on maintenance and also not forget pilot error, birds strike and lots more reason not for faulty air frame, wait 2 or 3 year and than picture will change totally J-20 with WS-15, J-31 with WS-13E and Y-20 with WS-20



Do you know how many year China need to make domestic engine for J10 ? They designed it with promising WS10, but more than 10 years passed, still there is no firm evidence that domestic engines replaced Russian ones


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## Ultima Thule

BoQ77 said:


> Do you know how many year China need to make domestic engine for J10 ? They designed it with promising WS10, but more than 10 years passed, still there is no firm evidence that domestic engines replaced Russian ones


yes engine is weak point for china its your belief that you don't belief the fact that WS-10 is real, WS-10 program as old as J-10 program and remember that China is just entered turbofan manufacturing capability, it will takes time to mature that technology, with a current phase of China that technology is already matures and going toward big project like Ws-15, WS-13E and WS-20

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## BoQ77

pakistanipower said:


> yes engine is weak point for china its your belief that you don't belief the fact that WS-10 is real, WS-10 program as old as J-10 program and remember that China is just entered turbofan manufacturing capability, it will takes time to mature that technology, with a current phase of China that technology is already matures and going toward big project like Ws-15, WS-13E and WS-20



At its stable performance, WS10 at Al31 leverage. But not now.
Again, what is WS20? Why you are so sure about what you never seen? Al31FN is what we saw powering J20


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## ChineseTiger1986

BoQ77 said:


> At its stable performance, WS10 at Al31 leverage. But not now.
> Again, what is WS20? Why you are so sure about what you never seen? Al31FN is what we saw powering J20



Again, not AL-31FN, I am not buying what Deino said.

That silver nozzled engine is clearly not AL-31FN.

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## Ultima Thule

you can't close your eyes that in fact WS-10 is real if you are not blind even Jane's defense weekly, global-security, aviation week and other respected aviation sites is stated that WS-10 is real and out of trouble and mature enough to equip J-10B, C and J-11 series, future engine for Y-20 which uses WS-10 core, and yes in current form J-20 uses AL-31FN or may be WS-10G or WS-10T but future of J-20 is with WS-15 thats for sure

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## ChineseTiger1986

pakistanipower said:


> you can't close your eyes that in fact WS-10 is real if you are not blind even Jane's defense weekly, global-security, aviation week and other respected aviation sites is stated that WS-10 is real and out of trouble and mature enough to equip J-10B, C and J-11 series, future engine for Y-20 which uses WS-10 core, and yes in current form J-20 uses AL-31FN or may be WS-10G or WS-10T but future of J-20 is with WS-15 thats for sure



That's right, the B model of the J-20 will be in its 100%.

We shall see the first prototype of the B model by 2017.

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## BoQ77

pakistanipower said:


> you can't close your eyes that in fact WS-10 is real if you are not blind even Jane's defense weekly, global-security, aviation week and other respected aviation sites is stated that WS-10 is real and out of trouble and mature enough to equip J-10B, C and J-11 series, future engine for Y-20 which uses WS-10 core, and yes in current form J-20 uses AL-31FN or may be WS-10G or WS-10T but future of J-20 is with WS-15 thats for sure



Again why so sure? Which future? Did WS15 exist?
What is J20B, ever existed? 

What you guys did here is posting doubtful things about F35 the existed one, but persuade others to believe on some things never existed.

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## yusheng

pakistanipower said:


> and you are trolling and started flame wars against china



Yes, just ignore him.

400 + ws10 ,till to 2015,12, have been supplied to PLAA, according the report from AVIC.

http://www.avic.com/cn/cxyfz/shzl/shzlbg/index.shtml
http://www.avic.com/en/index.shtml

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## ahojunk

*International trade corridor tested*
Updated: 2016-08-19 07:55
By Luo Wangshu(China Daily)




A pilot route to simplify international freight transportation across China, Mongolia and Russia hit the road in Tianjin on Thursday, aiming to boost economic cooperation and trade between the countries.

"The pilot trip is an effective trial to carry out the nations' top strategic plans in the transportation field, and also a move to deepen economic cooperation in the economic corridor through China, Mongolia and Russia," said Liu Xiaoming, vice-minister of transportation, adding that the pilot trip will coordinate freight transportation policies and standards in the economic corridor, aiming to simplify freight transport procedures along the route.

In July, China joined the TIR Convention, an international system allowing transportation of authorized goods through member states without being subject to customs inspections. It takes effect on Jan 5. Russia and Mongolia are already TIR member countries.

The estimated seven-day trip covering 2,152 kilometers will stop at 11 cities, including China's border city Erenhot, Mongolia's capital Ulaanbaatar and Russia's Ulan-Ude.

A total of nine trucks are participating in the trip - three each from China, Mongolia and Russia.

"It will be a milestone in our trilateral transportation," Liu said.

The route links China's One Belt, One Road initiative with Mongolia's Prairie Road program and Russia's transcontinental rail plan.

"The new route will open the Mongolian and Russian markets for us. For example, when the route opens, high value-added products such as electronic products and tropical fruits can be transported by road from South China, and even Southeast Asian countries, to Mongolia and Russia," said Guo Xin, general manager of Nanjing Xinjinhang Logistic Co, which is participating in the pilot.

"Air cargo is very expensive. Now electronic products from Samsung and Huawei are usually sent to Mongolia and Russia by plane. If the road corridor opens, it would be a more cost-effective alternative," Guo said, adding that the cost of road transportation is about one-tenth of air transportation.

"One truck carrying about 20 metric tons of freight from South China's Guangxi GuangxiZhuang autonomous region to Russia costs about $4,000. But air cargo is calculated by the kilo," Guo said.

China signed road freight agreements with Mongolia in 1991 and Russia in 1992.

Last year, 3.7 million passengers and 24.6 trillion kilo-grams of freight were transported between China and the two countries.

In 2014, President Xi Jinping proposed a China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor. Details were dis-cussed by the presidents of China, Mongolia and Russia, aiming at strengthening regional ties and boosting trade.

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## TaiShang

*Central Asia freight train service starts*

Source:Xinhua | 2016-08-25







A railway worker gets on the first Central Asia cargo train in Nantong, east China's Jiangsu Province, Aug. 25, 2016. The cargo train left Nantong on Thursday for Afghanistan's Hairatan, marking the start of Central Asia freight train service. (Xinhua/Ji Chunpeng)











@Sinopakfriend

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## TaiShang

*Belt and Road: Singapore’s new growth track?*
Article 03/08/2016 

Nomita Nair, Junwei Lu on 03/08/2016

Summary: *Singapore has been one of the earliest supporters of the Belt & Road initiative, recognising its enormous potential.* Being strategically located along the maritime Silk Road, the Belt & Road initiative is expected to unlock untapped regions across Central Asia, creating new trade and investment for Singaporean companies. In particular, *Singapore's well established logistics and infrastructure sectors are expected to reap the benefits.*

The One Belt One Road initiative has a short name with a big ambition. Announced in late 2013, it aims to promote connectivity and cooperation among countries primarily in the Eurasia region through the maritime Silk Road and the land-based Silk Road Economic Belt.

The strategic proposal - now formally referred to as the Belt and Road initiative - is also part of China's strategy to secure its status and influence as one of the world's most powerful economies. *President Xi Jinping set his mind on the Belt and Road initiative, just as he did on his well-known anti-corruption efforts.* While not short of detractors and sceptics, it is difficult to ignore the general support and enthusiasm generated in both public and private sectors, and the general consensus that the Belt and Road initiative has built impressive momentum.

The benefits of China's initiative are clear for the Asean region. *With economic growth slowing in the region and a clear need for infrastructure development, governments across Asia have the opportunity to boost infrastructure spending and improve reputations through Belt and Road. *However, as a nation state with some of the world's most advanced infrastructure and an already sophisticated port and transportation system linking to its neighbours, where do the opportunities for Singapore lie?

Singapore was one of the earliest supporters of the Belt and Road initiative, recognising its magnitude and enormous potential. Being strategically located along the maritime Silk Road, the Belt and Road initiative is expected to unlock untapped regions, namely Central Asia, creating new trade and investment for Singapore companies. In particular, Singapore's well established logistics and infrastructure sectors are expected to reap benefits from the Belt and Road initiative.* Singapore has a strong pool of local companies with wide-ranging infrastructure capabilities, from power, *water* to transport management.* These companies' familiarity with doing business in Asia also makes them excellent partners for Chinese companies to explore infrastructure projects and market opportunities in the region. The establishment of the Asean Economic Community in December 2015 is also expected to multiply the benefits of the Belt and Road initiative even further. *Singapore is the country coordinator for Asean-*China* dialogue relations, with a remit to hold this role for the next three years.* This will enhance Singapore's super connector role, particularly as Belt and Road links China with its South-east Asian neighbours.

In addition, as one of the region's leading financial and professional services hubs, there are multiple areas for Singapore to capitalise on. For instance, *Singapore is a world leader for offshore RMB exchange, alongside Hong Kong, and this creates natural synergies for *China*-linked financings.* Signs of this already happening can be seen from Singapore signing memoranda of understanding with Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Limited, China Construction Bank and Bank of China to bring more than S$90 billion worth of financing for Belt and Road projects to the table. Professional services firms are also poised to capitalise on the significant opportunities in advising both Singapore-based and foreign enterprises as they expand into the region. The Belt and Road initiative is not without its challenges. To succeed, it requires a combination of huge financial clout, cutting-edge technical acumen and the ability to implement projects in a region with very diverse cultures, religions, languages and political systems. *Deng Xiaoping once said: "Learn from all countries in the world. And most of all learn from Singapore."* Singapore still has much to offer China in this regard and the Belt and Road initiative will certainly lead to even deeper ties between these two countries.

@Mista , @Shotgunner51

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## TaiShang

*China conducts joint military exercises with Russia, US, Australia: Defense Ministry*
(CRI Online) August 26, 2016








A series of joint military exercises among Chinese, Russian, U.S. and Australian troops is getting underway.

*Spokesperosn Wu Qian says Chinese ground forces are teaming up with US and Australian troops for training sessions in Australia's rugged northern regions.*

"Based on our agreement with the U.S. and Australian defense departments, China, the US and Australia are holding* the joint 'Exercise Kowari 2016' that includes field survival training in Darwin, Australia from Aug. 24 to Sept. 11."*

On top of this, the Chinese Defense Ministry says *Chinese and Australian ground forces will also conduct their own, separate exercies - dubbed "Panda-Kangaroo 2016" from September 14th to the 23rd.*

Those exercies, which will take place near Sydney, Australia, will include canoeing and downhill climbing drills.

The Chinese side says both sessions in Australia will be a good opportunity for Chinese ground forces to interact with their counterparts from Australia and the United States, and will also improve their overall training.

Meanwhile, the Defense Ministry's Wu Qian says preparation work is also underway for a planned joint naval exercise with Russia.

"China and Russia have held their third round of negotiation over the 'Joint Sea 2016' maritime exercise in Zhanjiang City from Aug. 16 to 21, exchanging views on the exercise plan and arrangements for communication and logistic supports. They have reached wide consensus and have also inspected the relevant sites and facilities to be involved in the exercises. "

An exact date as to when the joint naval exercises with the Russian navy have not been laid out.

**
_Some of our Communist neighbours, who can't wait seeing China and US start WWIII no later than tomorrow early morning because the US cares so much for the Communists to hold all the islands it has stolen, should not be depressed .
_
@kecho .

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## TaiShang

@kecho

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## Mista

*Singapore 'can help One Belt, One Road project reach potential'*

Singapore can play a key role in helping China's ambitious One Belt, One Road (OBOR) initiative reach its full potential, said Minister in the Prime Minister's Office Chan Chun Sing yesterday.

He told a forum that while the initiative was inspired by the ancient overland and maritime trade routes, it will need to incorporate other dimensions of connectivity to really flourish - and this is where Singapore can help.

"To me, whether it's One Belt, One Road, or the Maritime Silk Road, it goes beyond the two dimensions of conventional land and sea connectivity. It will be what I call a five-dimensional connectivity - that's land, sea, air, data and finance," he said.

The joint Singaporean and Chinese government project, the Chongqing Connectivity Initiative, could be where Singapore adds value, he said. The initiative has identified four areas for bilateral collaboration: finance, aviation, transport and logistics, and infocommunications technology. Mr Chan said it aims to create a "dumb-bell effect", namely, to catalyse the development of the two ends of the "dumb-bell" - in Chongqing and in Singapore.

"It's not just about foreign direct investment (FDI) flowing from Singapore to China. It's about how China... will also want to push its FDI into the world for... more sustainable returns for its ageing population," said Mr Chan, who was speaking to about 500 participants at the second Singapore Regional Business Forum held at The Ritz-Carlton.

"China can use Singapore as a platform to reach out to South-east Asia and the rest of the world.

"Singapore, on the other end of the dumb-bell, can bring in services to catalyse the development of China's western region. The creation of this dumb-bell effect will allow Singapore to play a role that is in accordance with China's needs."

In a separate panel, banking leaders elaborated on Singapore's role in the OBOR initiative as an infrastructure financing hub. Panellists said Singapore could play a key role in infrastructure finance for the region, a process that is well under way with banking experts in that field relocating here. But the private sector here faces several challenges in fighting for a slice of the cake.

OCBC Bank chief executive Samuel Tsien pointed to tough competition from the public sector due to the proliferation of financing via the Silk Road Fund, as well as the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

Recounting his experience meeting a China Development Bank official, Mr Tsien said he had asked why no commercial banks were involved in the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed railway project. He was told that the bank had too much money and not enough projects. "As commercial banks, we really need to partner the policy banks in order to find opportunities that we cannot identify alone," he said.

DBS Bank head of project finance Lim Wee Seng said there was no lack of funds for the huge sums needed for infrastructure in the region, but that there was a lack of "bankable projects" due to institutional capacity. He urged the private sector to work with governments to develop more projects.

"This could be a potential area for Singapore and China to collaborate in," he said, adding that Singapore could bring in its urban-planning skills, and China its strengths in construction and sources of financing.

http://www.straitstimes.com/business/singapore-can-help-one-belt-one-road-project-reach-potential

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## TaiShang

Mista said:


> *Singapore 'can help One Belt, One Road project reach potential'*
> 
> Singapore can play a key role in helping China's ambitious One Belt, One Road (OBOR) initiative reach its full potential, said Minister in the Prime Minister's Office Chan Chun Sing yesterday.
> 
> He told a forum that while the initiative was inspired by the ancient overland and maritime trade routes, it will need to incorporate other dimensions of connectivity to really flourish - and this is where Singapore can help.
> 
> "To me, whether it's One Belt, One Road, or the Maritime Silk Road, it goes beyond the two dimensions of conventional land and sea connectivity. It will be what I call a five-dimensional connectivity - that's land, sea, air, data and finance," he said.
> 
> The joint Singaporean and Chinese government project, the Chongqing Connectivity Initiative, could be where Singapore adds value, he said. The initiative has identified four areas for bilateral collaboration: finance, aviation, transport and logistics, and infocommunications technology. Mr Chan said it aims to create a "dumb-bell effect", namely, to catalyse the development of the two ends of the "dumb-bell" - in Chongqing and in Singapore.
> 
> "It's not just about foreign direct investment (FDI) flowing from Singapore to China. It's about how China... will also want to push its FDI into the world for... more sustainable returns for its ageing population," said Mr Chan, who was speaking to about 500 participants at the second Singapore Regional Business Forum held at The Ritz-Carlton.
> 
> "China can use Singapore as a platform to reach out to South-east Asia and the rest of the world.
> 
> "Singapore, on the other end of the dumb-bell, can bring in services to catalyse the development of China's western region. The creation of this dumb-bell effect will allow Singapore to play a role that is in accordance with China's needs."
> 
> In a separate panel, banking leaders elaborated on Singapore's role in the OBOR initiative as an infrastructure financing hub. Panellists said Singapore could play a key role in infrastructure finance for the region, a process that is well under way with banking experts in that field relocating here. But the private sector here faces several challenges in fighting for a slice of the cake.
> 
> OCBC Bank chief executive Samuel Tsien pointed to tough competition from the public sector due to the proliferation of financing via the Silk Road Fund, as well as the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.
> 
> Recounting his experience meeting a China Development Bank official, Mr Tsien said he had asked why no commercial banks were involved in the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed railway project. He was told that the bank had too much money and not enough projects. "As commercial banks, we really need to partner the policy banks in order to find opportunities that we cannot identify alone," he said.
> 
> DBS Bank head of project finance Lim Wee Seng said there was no lack of funds for the huge sums needed for infrastructure in the region, but that there was a lack of "bankable projects" due to institutional capacity. He urged the private sector to work with governments to develop more projects.
> 
> "This could be a potential area for Singapore and China to collaborate in," he said, adding that Singapore could bring in its urban-planning skills, and China its strengths in construction and sources of financing.
> 
> http://www.straitstimes.com/business/singapore-can-help-one-belt-one-road-project-reach-potential



I have recently read that, among the Belt and Road countries (60+), Singapore is the fastest in terms of bureaucratic efficiency and trade facilitation.

I guess China's Hong Kong and regional neighbor Singapore will benefit immensely from the increased trade flow in the region thanks to the Belt and Road, especially the maritime leg.

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## ahojunk

*Central Asia freight train service starts*
Source:Xinhua Published: 2016/8/25 22:57:07



The first Central Asia cargo train departs from Nantong, east China's Jiangsu Province, Aug. 25, 2016. The cargo train left Nantong on Thursday for Afghanistan's Hairatan, marking the start of Central Asia freight train service. (Xinhua/Ji Chunpeng)




Customs staff workers pass by the first Central Asia cargo train before it leaves Nantong, east China's Jiangsu Province, Aug. 25, 2016. The cargo train left Nantong on Thursday for Afghanistan's Hairatan, marking the start of Central Asia freight train service. (Xinhua/Ji Chunpeng)




A railway worker gets on the first Central Asia cargo train in Nantong, east China's Jiangsu Province, Aug. 25, 2016. The cargo train left Nantong on Thursday for Afghanistan's Hairatan, marking the start of Central Asia freight train service. (Xinhua/Ji Chunpeng)

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## TaiShang

*Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO chance for further development I*
(Xinhua) 12:31, August 28, 2016




(Left) File photo taken in 1958 shows the first batch of "Dongfanghong" tractors produced by Luoyang First Tractor Factory in Luoyang, central China's Henan Province.

(Right)"Dongfanghong" tractors park in the factory in Luoyang, central China's Henan Province, Aug. 16, 2016. (The file photo was taken by Tang Maolin and right photo was taken by Zhu Xiang)
In 1958, China's first caterpillar tractor "Dongfanghong" was manufactured in Luoyang Tractor Factory, marking the first step of China's tractor industry. In the past six decades, the factory which renamed as YTO Group Corporation has produced 3.31 million tractors and 2.45 million power machines. The Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO an opportunity to further development. In the recent years, YTO built several factories in Serbia, South Africa, Poland and other countries. In 2011, the French company McCormick, an old tractor factory founded in 1950s, was acquired by YTO. In 2015, YTO was listed on the first six Chinese companies settled in the China-Belarus Industrial Park. After experiencing the development process from technology import to independent research and development, YTO enhanced its competitiveness and more "Dongfanghong" tractors would show in the fields at home and abroad.




Photo taken in 1962 (Upper) shows "Dongfanghong" tractors on a train in China and photo taken in Dec. 1961 (Lower) shows "Dongfanghong" tractors shipping to Albania in Shanghai.

In 1958, China's first caterpillar tractor "Dongfanghong" was manufactured in Luoyang Tractor Factory, marking the first step of China's tractor industry. In the past six decades, the factory which renamed as YTO Group Corporation has produced 3.31 million tractors and 2.45 million power machines. The Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO an opportunity to further development. In the recent years, YTO built several factories in Serbia, South Africa, Poland and other countries. In 2011, the French company McCormick, an old tractor factory founded in 1950s, was acquired by YTO. In 2015, YTO was listed on the first six Chinese companies settled in the China-Belarus Industrial Park. After experiencing the development process from technology import to independent research and development, YTO enhanced its competitiveness and more "Dongfanghong" tractors would show in the fields at home and abroad.




A customs officer checks a "Dongfanghong" tractor in Luoyang, central China's Henan Province, July 26, 2013.

In 1958, China's first caterpillar tractor "Dongfanghong" was manufactured in Luoyang Tractor Factory, marking the first step of China's tractor industry. In the past six decades, the factory which renamed as YTO Group Corporation has produced 3.31 million tractors and 2.45 million power machines. The Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO an opportunity to further development. In the recent years, YTO built several factories in Serbia, South Africa, Poland and other countries. In 2011, the French company McCormick, an old tractor factory founded in 1950s, was acquired by YTO. In 2015, YTO was listed on the first six Chinese companies settled in the China-Belarus Industrial Park. After experiencing the development process from technology import to independent research and development, YTO enhanced its competitiveness and more "Dongfanghong" tractors would show in the fields at home and abroad.




(Upper) Farmers try a "Dongfanghong" tractor in Ecuador, June 25, 2008. (Lower)"Dongfanghong" tractors are seen at a handover ceremony of aid tractors in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan, July 29, 2011.

In 1958, China's first caterpillar tractor "Dongfanghong" was manufactured in Luoyang Tractor Factory, marking the first step of China's tractor industry. In the past six decades, the factory which renamed as YTO Group Corporation has produced 3.31 million tractors and 2.45 million power machines. The Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO an opportunity to further development. In the recent years, YTO built several factories in Serbia, South Africa, Poland and other countries. In 2011, the French company McCormick, an old tractor factory founded in 1950s, was acquired by YTO. In 2015, YTO was listed on the first six Chinese companies settled in the China-Belarus Industrial Park. After experiencing the development process from technology import to independent research and development, YTO enhanced its competitiveness and more "Dongfanghong" tractors would show in the fields at home and abroad.

*Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO chance for further development II*



 
Photo taken on Oct. 16, 2009 (Upper) shows a "Dongfanghong" tractor working in fields in Malaysia and photo taken on June 1995 (Lower) shows people driving a "Dongfanghong" tractor in Cote d'Ivoire.
In 1958, China's first caterpillar tractor "Dongfanghong" was manufactured in Luoyang Tractor Factory, marking the first step of China's tractor industry. In the past six decades, the factory which renamed as YTO Group Corporation has produced 3.31 million tractors and 2.45 million power machines. The Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO an opportunity to further development. In the recent years, YTO built several factories in Serbia, South Africa, Poland and other countries. In 2011, the French company McCormick, an old tractor factory founded in 1950s, was acquired by YTO. In 2015, YTO was listed on the first six Chinese companies settled in the China-Belarus Industrial Park. After experiencing the development process from technology import to independent research and development, YTO enhanced its competitiveness and more "Dongfanghong" tractors would show in the fields at home and abroad.





"Dongfanghong" tractors, to be shipped to Cuba, park at a port in Qingdao, east China's Shandong Province, July 16, 2015.

In 1958, China's first caterpillar tractor "Dongfanghong" was manufactured in Luoyang Tractor Factory, marking the first step of China's tractor industry. In the past six decades, the factory which renamed as YTO Group Corporation has produced 3.31 million tractors and 2.45 million power machines. The Belt and Road Initiative gives YTO an opportunity to further development. In the recent years, YTO built several factories in Serbia, South Africa, Poland and other countries. In 2011, the French company McCormick, an old tractor factory founded in 1950s, was acquired by YTO. In 2015, YTO was listed on the first six Chinese companies settled in the China-Belarus Industrial Park. After experiencing the development process from technology import to independent research and development, YTO enhanced its competitiveness and more "Dongfanghong" tractors would show in the fields at home and abroad.

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## ahojunk

*Columnists - Behind The Headlines*
Sunday, 28 August 2016

*Mixing borders with trade*
BY BUNN NAGARA



_Connecting the world: China’s ambitious New Silk Road project presents vast opportunities to many countries.​_

*As China reprises its role in history as the world’s trade leader, some kinks in its foreign relations still need to be ironed out.*

AMONG once-fashionable terms, “borderless world” must be one of the least relevant today.

Borders are at least as important now as they had ever been. Border disputes and conflicts over territory are still very much in vogue.

Distance and proximity also matter. Goods and people still have to be transported over land and sea.

More than two millennia ago, traders traversing vast distances along the Silk Road contributed to the growth of Asian and European civilisations.

China, at the very heart of this economic artery, thrived as the “Middle Kingdom.” It was both conduit and catalyst for the rise of Asia and Europe as well as close relations between them.

Internally, ancient China was also capable of feats like the Great Wall, one of the Wonders of the World and among history’s most massive infrastructure projects.

Although the iconic wall as barrier may seem to contradict the Silk Road that connected peoples, one of the Great Wall’s purposes was to secure the Silk Road and its legitimate travellers from bandits.

Trade was paramount and still is. Colossal infrastructure was needed to support extensive trade, and continues to be.

In 2013, China launched the “One Belt, One Road” mega-project or OBOR, involving a New Silk Road to reconnect East Asia with western Europe across the vast Eurasian land mass.

This will incorporate the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-century Maritime Silk Road, comprising six component economic corridors: China-Mongolia- Russia, China-Indochina Peninsula, Bangladesh-China-India- Myanmar, China-Pakistan, China-Central Asia-West Asia, and the New Eurasia Land Bridge.

Obor will also link to such entities as the Yangtze River Economic Belt and the Russian-led Eurasian Economic Union (EEU) for larger synergies.

Covering 65 countries and territories in Asia, Africa and Europe, Obor will reportedly impact on some 4.4 billion people, or 60% of the world’s population.

It will comprise nearly 120 projects involving some US$225bil (RM903bil) at current value. Obor will be the most massive infrastructure project in the world. Its costs and benefits will also be of a comparable scale.

The Silk Road Economic Belt alone will link Xian to the Tajik capital Dushanbe, then further westward to Moscow, then Rotterdam and Venice.

Further south, the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road will link Fuzhou across the South China Sea to Jakarta, up the Malacca Straits to Colombo, Kolkata, then Nairobi, Athens and Venice.

The various component economic corridors link a whole host of more towns, cities and communities. Scores of ports, airports, highway networks and high-speed rail links will be constructed or upgraded.

In South-East Asia, Obor would accommodate and complement Asean’s efforts at building regional connectivity.

As it was with the old Silk Road some 2,000 years ago, Obor’s main themes and motivations are economic: to promote trade and investment between major points on much of the world map.

There are other motivations, of course. As it was before, cultural exchanges will be encouraged and developed.

But some countries still wary of China’s growth see a strategic angle implicit in Obor’s geopolitical configuration.

At a recent conference in Ulaanbaatar, a Japanese participant acknowledged Obor’s benefits but also expressed concern about its strategic implications. But nobody else was listening.

Most participants were content with awaiting the opportunities that Obor was expected to deliver.

Where there were concerns, they were about other issues.

The Europeans were worried about the risk of environmental degradation that construction of the major infrastructure projects of the various corridors could entail.

When pressed on the strategic issues, Europeans in general would murmur about how the mega-project should be more of a collective effort with equitably shared benefits.

Obor’s clear strategic implication is that China will be the country at its core. Is that enough to be of any legitimate concern?

Nobody has an alternative plan or interpretation of Obor, much less “a better idea.” Any circumspection has also not developed beyond some doubts that could be dispelled with more information.

That indicates one of Obor’s weaknesses: not enough detailed information has been made available beyond the platitudes and feel-good gestures.

Requests for more details or anything like a blueprint typically result in getting a copy of Vision and Actions on Jointly Building Silk Road Economic Belt and 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road, a policy document issued by China’s Foreign Ministry.

Although this is the nearest thing to a blueprint for Obor, it is still lacking in details.

This situation suggests that Beijing is satisfied with only providing the broad themes of the big picture, leaving provisional authorities, the private sector and other interests to fill in the blanks.

By the same token, the scores of countries and territories outside China covered by Obor should also act to provide the details that are still missing. This would help ensure that the costs and benefits which accrue would be more equitable and acceptable.

It is not only common sense but also smart forward planning that has to begin now. It makes no sense to languish in apathy and complaint mode, doubting the benefits of Obor by doing nothing to co-design it.

Funding is a key issue, particularly given the enormous costs involved, so the likely financial resources need to be examined carefully.

Even a cash-rich China cannot afford to fund Obor entirely on its own, despite its deep pockets. Besides multilateral projects like Obor, China also has financial commitments in other countries on a bilateral basis.

Some of the necessary resources at least will have to come from other countries. This issue has been contributing to doubts that some countries still have about acceding to Obor.

When earlier reports suggested that the China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) would be instrumental in financing Obor, Beijing baulked.

Perhaps, it had quietly planned for the AIIB to finance projects in other regions of the world. Or perhaps it did not want to spook countries with no place in Obor that were still mulling over whether to join the AIIB.

Alternatively, China may have other financial institutions in mind for Obor – but what are they?

One possibility is the New Development Bank, or BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) bank.

But that would be an unlikely or limited source, since Obor concerns only three of the five countries. More specifically, Obor’s designated financial institution is the state-owned Silk Road Infrastructure Fund. But this is also of limited utility, since at its launch in 2014, Beijing allocated only US$40bil (RM160bil), or less than 18% of Obor’s projected costs.

Another challenge facing Obor on the ground, or in the water, is China’s assertive posture over disputed territory in the South China Sea. This is the precise location of the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, which requires close collaboration with other countries including rival claimant states.

The Philippines had taken its dispute with China to the Permanent Court of Arbitration at the Hague, which ruled against China’s claims. But with a new, more conciliatory government in Manila, the prospect for negotiations has improved substantially.

The hope of better regional relations, and of Obor in South-East Asia, now hinges on the progress of relations between China and claimant countries like the Philippines.

Evidently, borders, territory and sovereignty continue to be as significant today as trade and development.

*Bunn Nagara is a Senior Fellow at the Institute of Strategic and International Studies (ISIS) Malaysia.*

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## TaiShang

*First freight train linking Yiwu to Afghanistan departs*
Xinhua, August 29, 2016

The eastern Chinese city of Yiwu, *home to the world's leading small commodities market*, saw its first freight train leave for Afghanistan on Sunday.

*It is the fifth cargo train route linking Yiwu to Europe or Asia. Cargo train routes already in service connect Yiwu with countries including Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Spain, Iran, and Russia.*

The train, hauling 100 containers of goods worth more than US$4 million, will arrive at Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan via Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.* A single trip is 7,500 km and takes 15 days, half the time needed for maritime transportation.* The service is expected to run weekly by the end of this year.

The northern Afghanistan city of Mazar-i-Sharif is a key commercial center near the border with Uzbekistan. It also serves as a logistics hub for the entire Middle East. The new freight route is expected to help upgrade trade cooperation between China and the region.

*Trade between Yiwu and Afghanistan amounted to US$20.2 million in 2015, representing year-on-year growth of 2,284.5 percent.* The total import-export volume reached US$18.3 million during the first half of this year, up by 4,683 percent compared with the same period last year, according to the local bureau of commerce.

**
*
Guangzhou launches China-Europe cargo train service to Russia*
Xinhua, August 28, 2016

A cargo train left south China's Guangzhou City Sunday for Vorsino, Kaluzhskaya Oblast in Russia.

It is the latest freight train route China has launched to boost trade ties along the ancient Silk Road.

*The train will travel 11,500 km over 14 days before reaching its destination. Its cargo includes garments, shoes, hats, cloth, lamps and lanterns, electrical appliances, and electronics.*

Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong Province, has traditionally depended more on maritime freight services. The new cargo train service saves 30 days compared with shipping services, and it costs just a fifth of the price for air transportation.

Kaluzhskaya Oblast has set up a major logistics center in the Vorsino industrial park to handle 150,000 to 350,000 containers a year, according to Russian media reports.

Currently, 26 cities in China offer China-Europe or China-Asia freight train services.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> *First freight train linking Yiwu to Afghanistan departs*
> Xinhua, August 29, 2016
> 
> The eastern Chinese city of Yiwu, *home to the world's leading small commodities market*, saw its first freight train leave for Afghanistan on Sunday.
> 
> *It is the fifth cargo train route linking Yiwu to Europe or Asia. Cargo train routes already in service connect Yiwu with countries including Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Spain, Iran, and Russia.*
> 
> The train, hauling 100 containers of goods worth more than US$4 million, will arrive at Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan via Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.* A single trip is 7,500 km and takes 15 days, half the time needed for maritime transportation.* The service is expected to run weekly by the end of this year.
> 
> The northern Afghanistan city of Mazar-i-Sharif is a key commercial center near the border with Uzbekistan. It also serves as a logistics hub for the entire Middle East. The new freight route is expected to help upgrade trade cooperation between China and the region.
> 
> *Trade between Yiwu and Afghanistan amounted to US$20.2 million in 2015, representing year-on-year growth of 2,284.5 percent.* The total import-export volume reached US$18.3 million during the first half of this year, up by 4,683 percent compared with the same period last year, according to the local bureau of commerce.
> 
> **
> *
> Guangzhou launches China-Europe cargo train service to Russia*
> Xinhua, August 28, 2016
> 
> A cargo train left south China's Guangzhou City Sunday for Vorsino, Kaluzhskaya Oblast in Russia.
> 
> It is the latest freight train route China has launched to boost trade ties along the ancient Silk Road.
> 
> *The train will travel 11,500 km over 14 days before reaching its destination. Its cargo includes garments, shoes, hats, cloth, lamps and lanterns, electrical appliances, and electronics.*
> 
> Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong Province, has traditionally depended more on maritime freight services. The new cargo train service saves 30 days compared with shipping services, and it costs just a fifth of the price for air transportation.
> 
> Kaluzhskaya Oblast has set up a major logistics center in the Vorsino industrial park to handle 150,000 to 350,000 containers a year, according to Russian media reports.
> 
> Currently, 26 cities in China offer China-Europe or China-Asia freight train services.


Picture of the first freight train to Afghanistan.





_The launching ceremony of the first freight train from Yiwu to Afghanistan in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Aug. 28, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua]

The eastern Chinese city of Yiwu, home to the world's leading small commodities market, saw its first freight train leave for Afghanistan on Sunday. The train, hauling 100 containers of goods worth more than 4 million U.S. dollars, will arrive at Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan via Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. (Xinhua/Gong Xianming)
_

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> Picture of the first freight train to Afghanistan.
> 
> View attachment 329772
> 
> _The launching ceremony of the first freight train from Yiwu to Afghanistan in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Aug. 28, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua]
> 
> The eastern Chinese city of Yiwu, home to the world's leading small commodities market, saw its first freight train leave for Afghanistan on Sunday. The train, hauling 100 containers of goods worth more than 4 million U.S. dollars, will arrive at Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan via Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. (Xinhua/Gong Xianming)_




That's amazing.

OBOR is...








TaiShang said:


> *Trade between Yiwu and Afghanistan amounted to US$20.2 million in 2015, representing year-on-year growth of 2,284.5 percent.* The total import-export volume reached US$18.3 million during the first half of this year, up by 4,683 percent compared with the same period last year, according to the local bureau of commerce.



Apparently, the trade starts from a very low base. But, still, significant development pace. This is especially so if you consider the non-progressive and perhaps long-dead US-led Silk Road Initiative.

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## ahojunk

_More news on the Guangzhou - Russia freight train service.
The OBOR is slowly taking shape._

--------
Guangzhou launches China-Europe cargo train service to Russia
(CRI Online) 08:40, August 29, 2016





_China-Europe cargo train service to Russia is launched on August 28, 2016. [Photo: Chinanews.com]_

China has launched a new freight train route to boost trade along the ancient Silk Road.

The latest route links south China's Guangzhou City with Vorsino, Kaluzhskaya Oblast in Russia.

The train will travel 11,500 km over 14 days before reaching its destination.

The new train service saves 30 days compared with shipping services, and only costs a fifth of the price of air transportation.

So far, 26 cities in China have launched cargo train routes towards Europe and landlocked Asian regions.

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## ahojunk

_I am starting a thread that touches both China and Russia.
This is the first one post._

--------
*Eco-friendly Russian food products can satisfy China’s growing appetite*
August 24, 2016 OLEG REMYGA, SPECIAL TO RBTH

With a growing Chinese middle class demanding high quality and eco-friendly food products, Russian agricultural exporters have a great opportunity to tap into this niche market.

Until the mid-1980s, the Soviet Union was among the world leaders in the production of wheat, rye, sugar beet, potatoes, milk and livestock. Russia’s agricultural industry then went into the doldrums and took over two and a half decades to recover.

It received a major boost in 2014 when Russia introduced sanctions on food products from the West, and initiated an import substitution-focused policy.

The price competitiveness of Russian agricultural products has primarily increased over the last two years due to the sharp devaluation of the ruble.

Bumper harvests in the last two years have led to a surplus of agricultural produce in Russia and an opportunity to increase large-scale exports to China, the world’s largest consumer of food.

In 2015, the country's population consumed 120 million tons of wheat (almost as much as the European Union), 150 million tons of rice (a third of global consumption), and 57 million tons of pork (first place).

Simultaneously, as the population in China is growing, the total arable land is decreasing, while, according to unofficial data, the level of urbanization has reached 55 percent.

As the demand for agricultural products is expanding, the country's production capacity is declining. China's leadership, realizing that this situation calls into question the food security of the country, announced at the end of 2015 that as part of the 13th Five-Year Plan (2016-2020) the country would rely more on food imports. Medium and long-term export prospects look very bright for Russian agricultural producers.

*Problems to face*

At the same time, the ongoing cooperation is not free from problems. The first hurdle that came in the way of Russian agricultural producers was the bureaucratic procedure in China to attain phytosanitary certification.

Chinese regulators are very cautious about allowing foreign businesses access to their agricultural market. The negotiations on the admission of Russian meat to China's market took more than a year.

Russian meat products will most likely enter the Chinese market by the end of 2016. The Russian regions bordering China, especially in the Far East will have a comparative advantage in the export of agricultural products to China. In turn, the development of infrastructure of the Russian Far East will only spur the development of the agricultural sector.

The institutional framework for this trend is already being formed. The recently established Russian-Chinese Agricultural Development Fund aims to develop agricultural infrastructure projects in the Amur Region, the Jewish Autonomous Region, and Primorye Territory. The fund plans to invest 200 billion rubles ($3 billion) in these regions that are in the Far East. 

Russian agricultural products can compete most effectively in certain unoccupied niches of the Chinese market. In dollar terms, average wages are already higher in China than in Russia. Simultaneously, the growing middle class has begun to demand higher-quality foods.

However, Chinese manufacturers often sacrifice the quality of manufactured food products for the sake of higher levels of productivity. Chinese consumers tend to consider Russian foods as environmentally friendly products grown on the vast expanses of their “northern neighbor.”

The niche market of ecologically friendly products has not yet been tapped by local manufacturers. So, despite all the complexities at the moment, the medium and long-term prospects for Russian agricultural exports look very bright. It is no coincidence that in the first half of 2016, China became the largest importer of Russian agricultural products.

Oleg Remyga is Head of China Studies in Moscow School of Management SKOLKOVO

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## ahojunk

_A lot of things are happening between China and Russia._

--------
*China, Russia eye crossings on border island*
China Daily, August 8, 2016






China and Russia are considering setting up land crossings connecting through Heixiazi Island, which is jointly owned by the two countries.

Zhou Hong, director of the Heixiazi Island Development and Management Committee, said Russia has suggested cross-border checkpoints. These would allow eight-seater or smaller cars to travel between Khabarovsk, one of the largest cities in Russia's Far East, and Fuyuan in Heilongjiang province, the most easterly town in China.

Zhou said that once the checkpoints are set up, they could be the largest on the Sino-Russian border and handle a projected annual passenger flow of more than 2 million.

The 335-square-kilometer island at the confluence of the Heilongjiang and Wusuli rivers, known as the Amur and Ussuri rivers in Russia, will play a vital role in boosting the local economy both as a road link and as a tourist destination.

The island, about one-third the size of Hong Kong, was the last border sticking point between China and Russia until the two countries agreed to each taking half of it.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry said after border markers were unveiled on the island in 2008, "The experience of China and Russia in resolving border disputes left by historical factors proves that peaceful dialogue and fair and reasonable consultation on an equal basis are effective."

However, considerable speculation arose over the use of the island－ranging from a tourist attraction to free trade zone to property development－until President Xi Jinping visited it in May and made an appeal for environmental protection.

Viewing the island and the rivers from a pagoda, he said ecological protection should be the priority for the island, especially as infrastructure would need to be built to encourage more tourists to visit the area, Xinhua News Agency reported.

In a written statement to China Daily on July 26, the National Development and Reform Commission, China's top economic planning agency, outlined a three-pronged policy for the island's "protective development".

It called for it to be turned into a "model zone for China-Russia cooperation", while emphasizing ecological protection and moderate tourism growth for the island.

Zhou said that since Xi's visit, local strategies have shifted to focus on ecological infrastructure construction, such as roads on the island.

Tourists are being asked to leave their cars behind and to take electric carts to get around the island. It boasts the recently built pagoda, abandoned Russian barracks and wetland areas. Visitors can also see a Russian Orthodox church, patrol boats and more wetland on the Russian side.

To further ease environmental pressure on the island, a 6-square-km multipurpose complex is being built in Fuyuan, which is separated from the island by a river.

The 10-year project, costing more than 4 billion yuan ($601 million), will include service facilities for tourists to the island, a conference center and possibly a campus jointly run by Chinese and Russian universities.

Zhou, who is also the Party chief of the rural, pollution-free river town of Fuyuan, which has a population of less than 200,000, said more tourists using the land crossings could represent the "biggest opportunity" for local residents, who had incomes that averaged 20,993 yuan last year.

Fuyuan, which shares a border river with Russia to the north and east, is scores of kilometers from Khabarovsk, which has a population of about 600,000. In July, six vessels carrying more than 800 Chinese and Russian tourists and traders shuttled between Fuyuan and Khabarovsk each day.

A boat ride from Fuyuan to Khabarovsk takes 90 minutes, but a land drive would take just an hour. This could attract large numbers of Chinese and Russian tourists and revitalize local business that is usually halted in winter when rivers freeze, Zhou said.

Last year, 520,000 tourists visited Fuyuan and Heixiazi Island. This figure is expected to rise to 600,000 this year, according to local tourism officials.

While China has yet to reply to the Russian proposals on the crossings, Zhou is confident about the plan, saying, "It will only be a matter of time."

Qi Wenhai, a professor of China-Russia relations at Heilongjiang University, drawing on previous experience of local economic development in China, said a slower ecological approach to the island might be worthwhile if rapid growth means environmental sacrifices.

Qi said ecological tourism, green agriculture and full use of road and river ports with Russia were the right direction for the border area to take.

"My vision is for Fuyuan to become an international tourist resort," Zhou said.

@vostok 

Please feel free to contribute if you have interesting news or updates.

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## ahojunk

_Interesting. This is the first time I heard of honey-based alcoholic beverage. 
It's called mead._

--------
*Altai-based company looks to export Russian mead to China*
July 5, 2016 EVGENIYA OGURTSOVA, SPECIAL TO RBTH
*
Chinese distributors take interest in honey-based alcoholic beverage.*





_*Russian Mead. Source: Lori/Legion-Media*_

Medovedov, an Altai-based company, is in talks with Chinese distributors to supply mead, a Russian honey-based alcoholic beverage.

“China is a limitless consumer market with a high demand for quality products,” Medovedov Chief Executive Alexander Grebenyuk told Altapress.ru. He added that Chinese companies were pondering over how to market the beverage, which is not well known in China.

According to the International Trade Center, Russia’s honey exports in 2014 stood at $3 million. China, Kazakhstan, UAE, and the U.S. are the main consumers of Russian honey.

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## vostok

ahojunk said:


> _Interesting. This is the first time I heard of honey-based alcoholic beverage.
> It's called mead._
> 
> --------
> *Altai-based company looks to export Russian mead to China*
> July 5, 2016 EVGENIYA OGURTSOVA, SPECIAL TO RBTH
> *
> Chinese distributors take interest in honey-based alcoholic beverage.*
> 
> View attachment 329795
> 
> _*Russian Mead. Source: Lori/Legion-Media*_
> 
> Medovedov, an Altai-based company, is in talks with Chinese distributors to supply mead, a Russian honey-based alcoholic beverage.
> 
> “China is a limitless consumer market with a high demand for quality products,” Medovedov Chief Executive Alexander Grebenyuk told Altapress.ru. He added that Chinese companies were pondering over how to market the beverage, which is not well known in China.
> 
> According to the International Trade Center, Russia’s honey exports in 2014 stood at $3 million. China, Kazakhstan, UAE, and the U.S. are the main consumers of Russian honey.


In ancient times, when we did not have wine and vodka we were drinking beer and this one - mead.

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## ahojunk

*Sino-Russian agricultural fund may finance 17 projects in Far East*
August 3, 2016 TASS

The fund will focus on supporting projects aimed at producing agricultural products as well as creation of necessary infrastructure.






_*Participants in the 2015 Eastern Economic Forum at Far Eastern Federal University on Russky Island. Source: Stanislav Krasilnikov/TASS*_

Sino-Russian fund of agricultural development is exploring the possibility of financing 17 agricultural enterprises in Russia’s Far East, a representative of the Ministry for the Development of the Russian Far East said, adding that the decision to provide four projects with funds may be taken soon.

"A total of 17 agricultural enterprises in the Far East considered for financing by the agricultural fund, are in the prior list of projects. At the moment decisions on financing four projects with a total of 32 bln rubles ($480 mln) worth of investment, are about to be made," the Ministry said, adding that the first investment projects to be backed by the Russian-Chinese fund, will be announced at the second Eastern Economic Forum.

The fund will focus on supporting projects aimed at producing agricultural products as well as creation of necessary infrastructure, the source said, with the goal of satisfying local demand for those products being an indispensable prerequisite.

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## ahojunk

*Eastern Economic Forum key venue for boosting Russia-China efforts — ministry*
August 10, 13:15 UTC+3 

*The 2nd Eastern Economic Forum will be held on September 2-3 in Vladivostok*
BEIJING, August 10. /TASS/. The upcoming Eastern Economic Forum (EEF) is an important framework for promoting Russian-Chinese cooperation in the Far East, a source in the Chinese Foreign Ministry told TASS on Wednesday.

"The EEF is a new and important venue for fostering Russian-Chinese cooperation in the Far East. The Chinese side is prepared to take an active part in developing Russia’s Far East on mutually beneficial terms. We intend to expand cooperation, utilize all available advantages and encourage the development of cross-border partnerships," the ministry said.

"We believe that the 2nd Eastern Economic Forum will turn out to be a great success and we are confident that Russian and Chinese companies will achieve new results," the source said. "The Chinese side is actively gearing up to send its high-level representative to the forum and is ready to actively encourage Chinese companies to take part in the forum."

The 2nd Eastern Economic Forum will be held on September 2-3 in Vladivostok. Over 2,400 people from China, Japan, South Korea, India, Vietnam, Australia, the United States and Singapore are expected to take part in the forum to discuss opportunities for investors, vehicles and instruments for supporting entrepreneurs, as well as infrastructure and energy projects. The first Eastern Economic Forum was held in Vladivostok in September 2015. More than 80 large investment contracts valued at over 1.3 trillion rubles ($20.32 billion) were signed there.

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## Economic superpower

*Number of Chinese tourists to Russian Transbaikal region up 62.8%*
(Xinhua)
Updated:August 29, 2016

MOSCOW - Over 5,400 Chinese tourists visited Russian Transbaikal region on a visa-free exchange basis in the first half of the year, up 62.8 percent year on year, the Russian news agency TASS reported Monday. 

According to the agency, the local authorities are working on a project to develop tourism between 2017 and 2025 by improving infrastructure and spa complex, and seek to attract tourists from other parts of the country and overseas. 

In recent years, the number of tourists visiting Transbaikal region has been on the rise, and 99 percent of them are Chinese, the report said. 

The most popular tour sites are its mineral springs, Orthodox churches and monasteries of Chita. 

Over 1 million tourists from China visited Russia in 2015, spending nearly $1 billion, according to data from the Moscow tourism department.

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## ahojunk

*Chinese companies place high priority on Eastern Economic Forum — expert*
August 12, 20:34 UTC+3 

*The second Eastern Economic Forum will be held in Vladivostok on September 2-3*





BEIJING, August 12. /TASS/. Chinese investors and companies assign high priority to the Eastern Economic Forum (EEF) to be hosted by Russia in September, Deputy Secretary-General of China Overseas Development Association He Zhenwei told TASS on Friday.

"We attach great importance to this event (EEF) since Russian leaders are expected to be there. As far as companies are concerned, they expect to acquire better understanding of the regional policy pursued by Russia and specific features of Advance Development Territories (ADT) operations on the Forum sidelines," He Zhenwei said. "Chinese companies also hope to meet heads of Russian regions and establish contacts with them. One more task is to find business partners," he added.

Companies also intend to examine specific investment projects during the EEF, He Zhenwei said. "We need specific investment projects on construction of new hubs, upgrade of transport facilities, construction of roads and enterprises," he added.

The second Eastern Economic Forum will be held in Vladivostok on September 2-3.

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## ashok321

Moscow and Beijing are developing a new passenger aircraft with a super flight range. According to the manufacturer, the aircraft will compete with Western air carriers, Boeing and Airbus, despite the fact that the new project is currently not in high demand by the customers, according to AeroTelegraph.






*The failed Tupolev Tu334 and COMAC ARJ21 share a lot in common; dated technology, structural issues, and unrealistic goals. Unlike the Tu334, the ARJ21 is still expected to fly commercially, for now at least*
*
*
Moscow and Beijing are developing a new passenger aircraft with a super flight range. According to the manufacturer, the aircraft will compete with Western air carriers, Boeing and Airbus, despite the fact that the new project is currently not in high demand by the customers, according to AeroTelegraph.

It has become known that the construction of the aircraft will take place in China, “closer to the markets,” Stephan Ayzelin wrote for AeroTelegraph.

*The Russian United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and China's Comac plan to create an aircraft with two jet engines which would be able to travel for more than 12 thousand kilometers and accommodate 280 passengers.*

The first models of the jets will be sold in the years 2025-2027. According to the report, the preliminary cost of the aircraft will be 200-260 million dollars.








Talks between China and Russia regarding the creation of such an aircraft have been ongoing for a long time.
In June 2016, the two countries signed an agreement to start work on the project. The United Aircraft Corporation and Comac decided to manufacture the aircraft in China, in the suburbs of Shanghai Pudong, justifying this “closeness to the most important export markets.”


Thus, Beijing and Moscow are seeking to compete with two main rivals: Airbus and Boeing companies.
Until now, Russia and China had only aircraft of medium and low flight distances; hence the new aircraft is designed to compensate for that.


“However, for the production of the aircraft, there will be a need for Western technology, until the time that Russia gets sufficiently powerful engines. Till then it will be supplied by Rolls Royce and General Electric,” according to AeroTelegraph.


The Russo-Chinese project may well prove to be successful and attract customers, including Western buyers, as it was evidenced by the example of the Sukhoi Superjet.






However, most of the orders come from “close to the Russian state airline,” the demand for them is not very large, even in developing countries. That is why Moscow and Beijing may go to lowering the prices.

As evidenced by a poll on the website AeroTelegraph, 43% of readers believe that the future of the Russo-Chinese plane will not be successful in the market, 26% believe that the project will “certainly” be successful, whereas 31% remain “undecided”.

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## Economic superpower

*Russia and China: Shifting From Neutrality to More Support in Vital Conflicts*
29.08.2016

*Russia and China are to hold join military drills in the South China Sea, a key source of tension between Beijing and other countries; meanwhile, China has announced that “the time is right” for it to enter the Syrian crisis. The Russian media suggests why the two are shifting their positions from neutrality to more support in these conflicts.*





© SPUTNIK/ SERGEY GUNEEV
Towards an Alliance? Current State and Prospects of Russia-China Friendship

Last week Vladimir Matveyev, a spokesman for the Russian Navy’s Pacific Fleet confirmed that Russia and China have agreed to hold their planned joint drills in the South China Sea on September 12-19.

The exercises would focus on organized efforts to protect merchant ships in the South China Sea. There will also be landings on islands, the spokesman added.

In July, Chinese Defense Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said the drills were “not directed against third countries.”

However, some Chinese analysts have interpreted Russia’s willingness to take part in the exercises as an endorsement of Chinese claims in South China Sea maritime territorial disputes.

On August 18, Chinese English-language newspaper The Global Times reported that “the time is right for the Chinese military to contribute more to ending the Syrian crisis”, following reports that a Chinese military delegation had visited Damascus to talk about military cooperation and humanitarian aid.





© AFP 2016/ JUNG YEON-JE
Rear Admiral Guan Youfei (C), director of Foreign Affairs Office of China's National Defence Ministry, speaks during annual working-level talks with South Korea at the Defence Ministry in Seoul on January 15, 2016

Rear Admiral Guan Youfei, Director of the Office for International Military Cooperation of China's Central Military Commission, met Fahad Jassim al-Freij, Syrian Defense Minister, in Damascus.

Both sides agreed to further cooperate on personnel training and humanitarian aid from the Chinese military.

Chinese Ministry of National Defense then said that China has played an active role in seeking a political solution to the Syrian crisis and supporting Syria's independence and autonomy, and the Chinese military is willing to strengthen cooperation with its Syrian counterparts.

Guan also met with a Russian general heading its Syrian reconciliation center in Damascus on "issues of common interests," the ministry said, without elaborating.







© AP PHOTO/ WARFAREWW
Washington's Conundrum in Syria: Russia, Iran and China Team Up

The above prompted various media suggestions why the two countries are shifting their positions from neutrality to more support in these conflicts.

Russian online news service Regnum suggested that for Beijing it was the need to demonstrate that there is no “worldwide denunciation” of its position in the South China Sea territorial dispute. And that the great powers are not unanimous in their support of the US, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei and other China’s opponents in this conflict.

“The US has successfully tested its technique of shaping a “powerful and fearful rogue state” out of Russia in the mass media two years ago. And China is now concerned that Washington will want to apply this scenario towards it,” says its analytical piece on the issue.

That is why, it further suggests, Beijing now needs certain landmark gestures from Moscow which would demonstrate that Russia has changed its neutral position to the one close to Chinese.






© AFP 2016/ KIRILL KUDRYAVTSEV
Russia, China to See Multiple High-Level Meetings by End of 2016 - Russian Envoy

Diplomatic rhetoric is not enough here, it says, but joint military maneuvers in disputed waters — is the best gesture for all the observers.

The author further suggests that in return, “China should have offered a very serious prize to Russia.” And “such a prize” might be the readiness of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army to straightforwardly and demonstratively join the Russian-Syrian-Iranian coalition in Syria.

This is what Moscow urgently needs right now, it says, due to some political reasons.

“There is shifting from neutrality in exchange for the shifting from neutrality,” the author notes.

“Joining the conflicts on the “right” side ensures the cracking of isolation: Russia’s isolation in the Syrian conflict and China’s isolation in the South China Sea conflict,” the article says.

It further adds that such a “construction” keeps within traditions of the Eastern politics – both Middle Eastern and Far Eastern.

@TaiShang @ChineseTiger1986 @AndrewJin @cirr @Dungeness @long_
@vostok @Sinopakfriend
@Beast @xunzi @S10 @j20blackdragon @Fattyacids @Chinese-Dragon

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## war&peace

This is a logical move. Both Russia and China can take on USA and its allies in the region and for economic development, they can benefit from the trade.
Russia can benefit from CPEC more than even China. Russia's access to the hot waters has been limited or rather practically absent. Russia through China and Afghanistan can be linked to CPEC and access Gawader Deep Sea port.
Russia, China, Pakistan can make a huge economic region

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## TaiShang

SCS joint drills, in my view, will be the symbolic pinnacle of China-Russia cooperation in the Asia-Pacific. That's so important and a strong message to the US-led trouble makers.

The enlargement of the SCO is significant in terms of security regime in Central Asia and beyond.

The OBOR-EEU (Eurasian Union) integration and cooperation agreement is also another significant step in terms of institutionalizing China-Russia relations.

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## BoQ77

Any country needs friends. 
Is Russia China's friend?
Yes !! yes !!


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## xunzi

I'm still waiting for the day when a mutual defense treaty is signed between SCO members. That's when we are talking serious business in defending in each other interest and not allow the US's led order to establish hegemony and double standard in the global share vision.

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## Bussard Ramjet

xunzi said:


> I'm still waiting for the day when a mutual defense treaty is signed between SCO members. That's when we are talking serious business in defending in each other interest and not allow the US's led order to establish hegemony and double standard in the global share vision.



Lol. SCO is going to include India soon. Do you really think there will be a military alliance between India and China? 

Also, Russia is more of a burden/liability for China than a resource. What does alliance with Russia bring China? Basically Russia, and some of its friends. (which aren't many) 

On the other hand, Russia has got too many enemies that will also become China's enemies. The Nordic countries, Baltics, and broader Europe. Count in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Ukraine, Finland, to be instant enemies. 

And then Europe, which has right now been largely neutral between the tussle between China and US will totally side with US. 

You seem to totally underestimate the size and strength of Russia's foes. The countries that I listed by themselves comprise a greater GDP than Russia. And then Europe is a superpower.



xunzi said:


> I'm still waiting for the day when a mutual defense treaty is signed between SCO members. That's when we are talking serious business in defending in each other interest and not allow the US's led order to establish hegemony and double standard in the global share vision.



The fact is that China has not got many friends. And by friends I mean countries where at all levels there is a warmth and sense of common destiny with China. Pakistan seems to be the only friend that China has.

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## ahojunk

China's Alibaba Discusses Possibility of Lending to Russian Small Businesses
09:26 09.08.2016

*The financial division of China's e-commerce giant Alibaba, Ant Financial Services Group, is in talks with the Russian banks on the possibility of lending to Russian small businesses, the company's head of foreign business Jia Han said.* 

BEIJING (Sputnik) — At present, Ant Financial provides services for crediting small business in China, amounting to an average of $5,000.

"We are currently considering such a possibility for Russia as well. We are constantly in contact with the Russian partner-banks, and this issue is also being discussed," Jia told RIA Novosti. Ant Financial has already issued loans to 2 million small and medium-sized businesses in China. The company implements two programs, namely lending to small and medium-sized businesses, and financial support to farmers.

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## Viet

TaiShang said:


> SCS joint drill, in my view, will be the symbolic pinnacle of China-Russia cooperation in the Asia-Pacific. That's so important and a strong message to the US-led trouble makers.
> 
> The enlargement of the SCO is significant in terms of security regime in Central Asia and beyond.
> 
> The OBOR-EEU (Eurasian Union) integration and cooperation agreement is also another significant step in terms of institutionalizing China-Russia relations.


Can you do for all of us a favor: keeping your propaganda to yourself!



xunzi said:


> I'm still waiting for the day when a mutual defense treaty is signed between SCO members. That's when we are talking serious business in defending in each other interest and not allow the US's led order to establish hegemony and double standard in the global share vision.


When are you leaving America and return to Chinese communist paradise?


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## ahojunk

*Russian President Vladimir Putin tops China’s guest list for G20 summit*

In the third story in a series on China’s relations with other G20 members ahead of next month’s summit in Hangzhou, the _South China Morning Post_ looks at the foundations of what’s been called a ‘bromance’ between President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart

PUBLISHED : Sunday, 14 August, 2016, 11:00am
UPDATED : Monday, 15 August, 2016, 1:26am
Cary Huang







When Russia and China celebrated the 70th anniversary of the end of the second world war with grand military parades in Moscow and Beijing last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin and President Xi Jinping stood shoulder to shoulder, front and centre, on the reviewing stands.

Those images have prompted many to speculate that Putin will again feature prominently alongside Xi when China hosts Group of 20 leaders at the G20 summit in Hangzhou, Zhejiang province, next month.

A senior Chinese diplomat made no secret China’s intentions this month, telling media that Putin would be guest No 1 at the annual gathering of leaders from the world’s most influential nations and largest economies.

It will be a marked contrast to the reception Putin received at the 2014 G20 summit in Brisbane, Australia, which he left early after coming under concerted Western fire over the Ukraine crisis. Putin left those talks before the final communique was issued, saying he needed to get some sleep.

Others who will be attending this year’s most important gathering of global leaders include US President Barack Obama, British Prime Minister Theresa May, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Francois Hollande and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

Xi and Putin have met more than a dozen times in recent years and appear to have developed a personal friendship as they have exchanged views on various global issues. Many observers have noted signs of a budding “bromance” between the two leaders, which has helped push the state-to-state relationship to new heights.

“Chinese protocol will treat Putin well in terms of a spot for the group photo of G20 leaders, etcetera,” said Alexander Gabuev, a senior associate and chair of the Russia in the Asia-Pacific programme at the Carnegie Moscow Centre.

Some observers have likened the improvement in Sino-Russian ties as a result of the two leaders’ friendship to the turnaround in the Sino-US relationship following then US president Richard Nixon’s historic trip to China in 1972, when a de facto Sino-US alliance was formed to check an expansionist Soviet Union. They also say it has once again raised the prospect of the formation of a new alliance to challenge the domination of global affairs by the US-led West.

The fact that no leaders from the other major wartime allies – the US, Britain and France – attended the two parades last year suggests the world is increasingly becoming divided into two major camps, with China and Russia on one side, and the US-led West on the other.

While that remains a subject of debate, most observers agree that China and Russia have now found more reasons than before to forge ahead with cooperation in the pursuit of common interests. They expect Xi will use his position as host of the G20 summit to showcase Sino-Russian friendship as a shining example of good diplomacy, while also boosting the two countries’ status on the global stage.

“With China being the host this year, efforts will be made to show that Putin is an active player and that he is not isolated,” Gabuev said, contrasting that to last year’s G20 summit in Antalya, Turkey, where he said Putin was also marginalised.

Diplomats will be focused on the interaction between Xi and Putin at the summit, looking for any clues on the development of one of the world’s most important bilateral relationships.

Wang Xianju, deputy director of the Renmin University-St Petersburg State University Research Centre, said developments since Putin’s visit to China in June would only increase the level of interest.

Chief among them is the escalation of tension in the South China Sea following the Permanent Court of Arbitration’s landmark ruling in The Hague on July 12 that denied China’s claim to sovereignty over most of the South China Sea. Another recent development of note is cooling of the relationship between China and South Korea following Seoul’s decision to allow the US to deploy its Terminal High-Altitude Area Defence (THAAD) anti-missile system in South Korea in response to North Korea’s ambitious nuclear programme. Relations between China and Japan have also deteriorated due to increasing confrontation over a territorial dispute in the East China Sea.

Wang said those issues would be high on the agenda in talks between Xi and Putin at the G20 summit.

A series a geopolitical changes have contributed to the improvement in Sino-Russian ties, with escalating tension between China and US over the regional security implications of Obama’s “pivot to Asia” at centre stage. Another key factor has been rising tension between Russia and the US-led West after Washington and the European Union, headquartered in Brussels, imposed sanctions on Russia in response to its annexation of Crimea and the crisis in eastern Ukraine.

The Sino-Russian relationship has officially been upgraded three times since the collapse of the Soviet Union in late 1991, an event which brought a de facto US-China alliance to an end.

In 1992, the two countries declared they were pursuing a “constructive partnership”. In 1996, they promoted their relationship to the status of a “strategic partnership”. And in 2001, they agreed to a “comprehensive partnership” by signing a Treaty of Good-Neighbourliness and Friendly Cooperation.

But the relationship only really began to flower after Xi became Communist Party general secretary in late 2012. In the first overseas trip of his presidency, in March 2013, just over a week after he became China’s head of state, Xi and Putin agreed in Moscow to forge “a special relationship” with increased security, economic, diplomatic and military cooperation.

However, most analysts view the relationship as being founded on realpolitik rather than a real strategic and political alliance similar to the one established shortly after the founding of communist China in 1949. Russia needed China’s market and capital, especially as Western sanctions over Ukraine bite, while Beijing saw Moscow as a source of diplomatic support and vital energy resources.

Benjamin Herscovitch, a senior analyst at Wikistrat, a geostrategic analysis and business consultancy headquartered in the US, said the burgeoning Sino-Russian relationship was “a product of a marriage of convenience rather than genuine romance”.

“Beijing and Moscow are increasingly diplomatically and economically close because of the imperatives of realpolitik,” he said.

For a strategically isolated Moscow, China was a welcome economic partner that would not punish Russia for its aggression in Ukraine, Herscovitch said. While the US-led West imposed sanctions and castigated Russia diplomatically, Beijing would happily do business with Moscow and voice qualified support for it.

Economic cooperation between China and Russia has boomed this century, with the volume of bilateral trade rising more than sixfold from US$15.8 billion in 2003 to US$95.3 billion in 2014, according to Chinese customs figures. China is Russia’s second largest trading partner, after the European Union, and Russia has launched major oil and gas projects with China, becoming one of its leading oil suppliers.

Some observers say the strategic partnership between China and Russia has recently gone way beyond a mere alliance of economic and political convenience.

Chinese and Russian officials say the key is Eurasian integration, starting with Xi’s “One Belt, One Road” initiative to improve regional transport infrastructure, and linking up with the Eurasian Economic Union (EEU), which came into being last year and includes Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan. Beijing and Moscow also plan to expand the six-nation Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, making it a security alliance similar to Nato.

The strategic partnership has also covered cooperation in the development of the BRICS grouping, which also includes the developing giants of India, Brazil and South Africa, support for China-led institutions such as the New Development Bank and Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, seen as a challenge to US-led Breton Woods institutions like the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, and coordination in the G20, UN and other major international institutions.

Some Western analysts have viewed the recent, rapid enhancement of such collaboration as the beginning of a partnership set on destabilising the US-led world order and diminishing Washington’s capacity to influence strategic outcomes. However, only a few analysts believe that a China-Russia axis is being formed.

“I don’t think there’s going to be a demonstration of some special axis between Russia and China,” Gabuev said. “The two countries are not likely to become allies.”

He said Russia was likely to increase its sale of sophisticated weaponry to China, such as last year’s deal on the S-400 air defence system, while China would become a supplier of some critical parts for Russian military equipment, such as providing microelectronics for use in its space programme. “This part of their relationship will mature and continue,” Gabuev said.

While Putin has, by and large, been viewed unfavourably in the West, surveys have found that Russia’s strongman leader has many fans in China. However, not many Chinese believe he is a true friend of China. Having witnessed numerous shifts of diplomatic friends and enemies over the years, they see such intimacy as a product of diplomatic pragmatism.

Some are worried the Sino-Russian relationship might stall if Putin resigns, as expected, in 2018, due to the crucial role the personal ties between Xi and Putin have played in advancing bilateral relations.

Analysts said the key element in the friendship between China and Russia friendship was a shared desire to rein in America’s role as the world’s sole superpower by building a multipolar world – with both countries seeking global leadership roles.

Gabuev said the essentially non-democratic political systems of the two countries meant their interests were aligned, but the personal relationship between Xi and Putin was also important “because the two leaders are the major pushers in advancing bilateral ties”.

Additional reporting by Catherine Wong

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## Place Of Space

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Lol. SCO is going to include India soon. Do you really think there will be a military alliance between India and China?
> 
> Also, Russia is more of a burden/liability for China than a resource. What does alliance with Russia bring China? Basically Russia, and some of its friends. (which aren't many)
> 
> On the other hand, Russia has got too many enemies that will also become China's enemies. The Nordic countries, Baltics, and broader Europe. Count in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Ukraine, Finland, to be instant enemies.
> 
> And then Europe, which has right now been largely neutral between the tussle between China and US will totally side with US.
> 
> You seem to totally underestimate the size and strength of Russia's foes. The countries that I listed by themselves comprise a greater GDP than Russia. And then Europe is a superpower.
> 
> Whatever to say, China has more friends than India has.
> 
> 
> The fact is that China has not got many friends. And by friends I mean countries where at all levels there is a warmth and sense of common destiny with China. Pakistan seems to be the only friend that China has.



what you mean the sense of common destiny?

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## Bussard Ramjet

Place Of Space said:


> what you mean the sense of common destiny?



That the countries at the level of public, intelligentsia, intellectuals, businesses, media, and administration are comfortable with your vision of a country, and see their destiny closely aligned with that of China.


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## Tshering22

war&peace said:


> Russia can benefit from CPEC more than even China. Russia's access to the hot waters has been limited or rather practically absent. Russia through China and Afghanistan can be linked to CPEC and access Gawader Deep Sea port.
> 
> Russia, China, Pakistan can make a huge economic region



They can access the same through North-South Corridor via Iran and India.

No matter how you or we see it, Russia gains doubly from both the India-Iran-Russia corridor and your proposal.


----------



## ahojunk

*China-Russia oil pipeline fuels trade*
By ZHANG YU/LYU CHANG (China Daily) Updated: 2016-08-19 08:57






_*Two China National Petroleum Corp employees collect crude oil transported from Russia at the valve chamber in Daqing, Heilongjiang province. GUO JUNFENG/FOR CHINA DAILY*_

*Huge capacity of link to enhance energy security, cut costs*

A new China-Russia oil pipeline will help guarantee China's oil consumption and, cut its transportation costs, said Gao Jian, an oil analyst at commodities consultancy Sublime China Information Co Ltd.

Compared with other countries, Russia has oil of quite good quality, and its location near China makes it competitive in exporting oil to China, Gao said, adding that Russia will certainly become China's largest exporter of oil in the near future.

The European economic situation made Russia shift its oil export destinations to the Asia-Pacific region, while China, as one of the world's largest oil consumers, has the need to import oil from neighboring countries, according to Gao.

Construction of the second China-Russia crude oil pipeline started recently in northeastern China's Heilongjiang province, a move that expands the capability for oil transportation from Russia to China.

The pipeline, traversing the China-Russia border, is 940 km in length and 813 mm in diameter, with a capacity to transport 15 million tons of crude oil annually, according to China National Petroleum Corporation.

The Chinese section of the pipeline starts from the border city of Mohe in Heilongjiang, runs southward through the Inner Mongolia autonomous region and ends at Daqing in Heilongjiang.

The pipeline is expected to be put into operation at the beginning of 2018.

It will run parallel to an existing pipeline－the first China-Russia crude oil pipeline that was put into use in 2011, which can also transport 15 million tons of oil each year.

According to the CNPC Economics & Technology Research Institute, China imported 328 million tons of oil last year.

In 2015, Russia exported 41.04 million tons of crude oil to China, making China the country's largest oil importer, Russian media reported.

That means more than 12.5 percent of crude oil China imported last year was from Russia.

China and Russia signed a cooperation agreement on expanding bilateral trade in crude oil in 2013.

Following the agreement, CNPC signed a trade contract with Rosneft, Russia's largest oil producer, to expand the supply of oil for China.

Building a new pipeline is the main action under the contract.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Brothers, friends,

What we see slowly unfold is the systematic and peaceful dismentalling of the global hegemonic empire.

The paradigm of win-win cooperation is slowly and steadily cutting the roots of hegemonic imperial policies.

From SDR bonds issuance by China to joint Sino-Russian drills in missile defence..

The shared vision and economic integeration of Russia into Chinese economy is taking shape without boasts or chest thumbing.

As in the ME China was fully supporting Russian intervention every step of the way..and now openly joining in to crush and eliminate the foreign sponsored terrorist killers.

SCO will gain more strength through integeration of Turkey and Iran down the road. 

But for now from Gawadar to Moscow China is surrounded by true friends...

Yet we should NEVER underestimate the cunning and skills of troublemakers...they might not fight the SCO or China or Russia openly but their proxies are equally vicious...

Just look to the South...india is running to US to become the junior partner in the global empire...while sitting in SCO, BRICS or AIIB. 

First the Seas are secured then the illegally occupied lands return...

OBOR, CPEC and EEU are all building blocks of this new paradigm.

Those who support us in this are friends and those oppose or try to subotage this are not.

Buddha and Sun Wukong...500 years of humility for Sun Wukong!

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## Mo12

war&peace said:


> Russia can benefit from CPEC more than even China. Russia's access to the hot waters has been limited or rather practically absent. Russia through China and Afghanistan can be linked to CPEC and access Gawader Deep Sea port.
> 
> Russia, China, Pakistan can make a huge economic region



Russia and China yes, but in Asia I can name 10 other countries who would be more beneficial.


Bussard Ramjet said:


> Lol. SCO is going to include India soon. Do you really think there will be a military alliance between India and China?
> 
> Also, Russia is more of a burden/liability for China than a resource. What does alliance with Russia bring China? Basically Russia, and some of its friends. (which aren't many)
> 
> On the other hand, Russia has got too many enemies that will also become China's enemies. The Nordic countries, Baltics, and broader Europe. Count in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Ukraine, Finland, to be instant enemies.
> 
> And then Europe, which has right now been largely neutral between the tussle between China and US will totally side with US.
> 
> You seem to totally underestimate the size and strength of Russia's foes. The countries that I listed by themselves comprise a greater GDP than Russia. And then Europe is a superpower.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is that China has not got many friends. And by friends I mean countries where at all levels there is a warmth and sense of common destiny with China. Pakistan seems to be the only friend that China has.



There is a saying.... be careful on who you pick as your friends.



Tshering22 said:


> They can access the same through North-South Corridor via Iran and India.
> 
> No matter how you or we see it, Russia gains doubly from both the India-Iran-Russia corridor and your proposal.



Its easier through Iran as the terrain is much better.


----------



## ahojunk

_This is not so good news!_

--------
China-Russia Trade Turnover Drops 17% in July - Chinese Customs
08.08.2016

*Trade volume between China and Russia in July dropped by 17 percent to 5.673 billion compared with the same month last year, the Chinese General Administration of Customs said in a report Monday.* 

BEIJING (Sputnik) — According to the report, in July, China's exports to Russia amounted to $3.3 billion, while imports from Russia were at $2.3 billion. In July last year, the trade volume between China and Russia reached $6.64 billion.

Total bilateral trade volume for the period between January and July reached $37.4 billion, which is 0.9 percent less than last year. At the same time, China's exports to Russia grew by 7.7 percent, while imports from Russia fell by 8.8 percent, according to the Customs. 

Last year, trade volume between China and Russia has decreased by 28.6 percent and amounted to $68.06 billion. 

China’s total trade fell in 2015 as the yuan lost value and the country’s economic growth slowed to its lowest rate in over 25 years, prompting the national government to announce economic reforms.

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## jkroo

There are postive energies needed to stabilize the world. China and Russia play very important roles now.

Just try hard to stop those greedy warmongers.

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## Zsari

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Lol. SCO is going to include India soon. Do you really think there will be a military alliance between India and China?
> 
> Also, Russia is more of a burden/liability for China than a resource. What does alliance with Russia bring China? Basically Russia, and some of its friends. (which aren't many)
> 
> On the other hand, Russia has got too many enemies that will also become China's enemies. The Nordic countries, Baltics, and broader Europe. Count in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Ukraine, Finland, to be instant enemies.
> 
> And then Europe, which has right now been largely neutral between the tussle between China and US will totally side with US.
> 
> You seem to totally underestimate the size and strength of Russia's foes. The countries that I listed by themselves comprise a greater GDP than Russia. And then Europe is a superpower.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is that China has not got many friends. And by friends I mean countries where at all levels there is a warmth and sense of common destiny with China. Pakistan seems to be the only friend that China has.



Russia brings resources, access, and security. China doesn't need it's friends, but the resources Russia has and the access to resources and markets through Russia means China will have alternative to sea lanes that's dominated by the US. More importantly, a secured north and west border would mean China will not be fighting a multi front war, and that it can concentrate on naval development as the chance of fighting a large scale land war is reduced to near zero. Equally important is a mutual defense treaty would strengthen MAD which would reduce the chance of miscalculation on the part of the US and it's minors.

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## Mo12

Sinopakfriend said:


> Brothers, friends,
> 
> What we see slowly unfold is the systematic and peaceful dismentalling of the global hegemonic empire.
> 
> The paradigm of win-win cooperation is slowly and steadily cutting the roots of hegemonic imperial policies.
> 
> From SDR bonds issuance by China to joint Sino-Russian drills in missile defence..
> 
> The shared vision and economic integeration of Russia into Chinese economy is taking shape without boasts or chest thumbing.
> 
> As in the ME China was fully supporting Russian intervention every step of the way..and now openly joining in to crush and eliminate the foreign sponsored terrorist killers.
> 
> SCO will gain more strength through integeration of Turkey and Iran down the road.
> 
> But for now from Gawadar to Moscow China is surrounded by true friends...
> 
> Yet we should NEVER underestimate the cunning and skills of troublemakers...they might not fight the SCO or China or Russia openly but their proxies are equally vicious...
> 
> Just look to the South...india is running to US to become the junior partner in the global empire...while sitting in SCO, BRICS or AIIB.
> 
> First the Seas are secured then the illegally occupied lands return...
> 
> OBOR, CPEC and EEU are all building blocks of this new paradigm.
> 
> Those who support us in this are friends and those oppose or try to subotage this are not.
> 
> Buddha and Sun Wukong...500 years of humility for Sun Wukong!



Thats because China is being aggressive to India on the boundary and giving arms to Pakistan to use on India.

India Russia relationship is strong than China Russia is


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## Bussard Ramjet

Zsari said:


> Russia brings resources, access, and security. China doesn't need it's friends, but the resources Russia has and the access to resources and markets through Russia means China will have alternative to sea lanes that's dominated by the US. More importantly, a secured north and west border would mean China will not be fighting a multi front war, and that it can concentrate on naval development as the chance of fighting a large scale land war is reduced to near zero. Equally important is a mutual defense treaty would strengthen MAD which would reduce the chance of miscalculation on the part of the US and it's minors.



Almost all the benefits listed here (except joint MAD) are already enjoyed by China right now. An alliance will bring marginal benefits, but take its toll on the European relationships of China. 

Also, once the Europeans are your enemies, what will you do by access to Europe over land via Russia? (Anyways due to instability and political climate, any Europe-Russia arrangement is always a very flimsy one. Not to mention that land routes are significantly more expensive than naval routes.)


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## hoangsa74

TaiShang said:


> SCS joint drill, in my view, will be the symbolic pinnacle of China-Russia cooperation in the Asia-Pacific. That's so important and a strong message to the US-led trouble makers.


drill? U mean russia is drilling for oil within the 9 dashed line like they r doing right now? Just ask the vit konk. Looks like Russia is not your best buddy there.


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## Zsari

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Almost all the benefits listed here (except joint MAD) are already enjoyed by China right now. An alliance will bring marginal benefits, but take its toll on the European relationships of China.
> 
> Also, once the Europeans are your enemies, what will you do by access to Europe over land via Russia? (Anyways due to instability and political climate, any Europe-Russia arrangement is always a very flimsy one. Not to mention that land routes are significantly more expensive than naval routes.)



Enjoyed during peace time. None guaranteed during war time however, something that a mutual defense treaty would cement.
The expansion of NATO is a Washington agenda, not a European one. The Europeans understand that antagonizing Russia is not in their security interest. If the Europeans cannot detach themselves from the Washington bandwagon, then with or without Russia, China's relationship with them would be a rocky one.

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## Economic superpower

Mo12 said:


> Thats because China is being aggressive to India on the boundary and giving arms to Pakistan to use on India.
> 
> India Russia relationship is strong than China Russia is



India-Russia relationship was merely a money earning business for Russia by selling weapons. They needed the money. Apart from that there is absolutely NOTHING to that relationship. That money earning business will slow since India has chosen to sleep with America and buy their weapons.

India has never supported Russia in any of its geopolitical rivalries with the US. Geopolitical support to Russia is the most important in its battle with America right now. India can offer next to nothing on that.

In fact, with India agreeing to being a complete vassal state of the US now, Russia is starting to realise it can no longer trust India. That's why Russia is getting closer to China.

Russian media has also turned anti-India recently. Before it was all praise for India. Russia is suspicious of India's agenda. The shift is happening and only you Indians don't realise it.

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## xunzi

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Lol. SCO is going to include India soon. Do you really think there will be a military alliance between India and China?
> 
> Also, Russia is more of a burden/liability for China than a resource. What does alliance with Russia bring China? Basically Russia, and some of its friends. (which aren't many)
> 
> On the other hand, Russia has got too many enemies that will also become China's enemies. The Nordic countries, Baltics, and broader Europe. Count in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Ukraine, Finland, to be instant enemies.
> 
> And then Europe, which has right now been largely neutral between the tussle between China and US will totally side with US.
> 
> You seem to totally underestimate the size and strength of Russia's foes. The countries that I listed by themselves comprise a greater GDP than Russia. And then Europe is a superpower.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is that China has not got many friends. And by friends I mean countries where at all levels there is a warmth and sense of common destiny with China. Pakistan seems to be the only friend that China has.


Uh huh, you think you know more about geopolitics than me? You're talking with a master here. LOL

An alliance with Russia will secure our northern border. Energy security is our number #1 concern and Russia happens to be an energy superpower. From a strategic angle, an military alliance will push back Washington's global "color revolution" policy. That in turn will help everyone in the world to bring more peace and development that no other can provide better than China. LOL

There is no such things as eternal enemy and friends. LOL What those countries are doing is to peg against Russia by using the US. They are not exactly trusty of the US. Actually even the EU don't trust them. That's why France and Germany had secret meeting with Putin without Washington approval. LOL As far as I'm concern with our relationship with EU. With or without Russia military alliance, business will continue as usual because there is a mutual benefit for both to conduct business. You don't see us making a big deal out of US and their puppet alliance against us, do you? Grow up.

We got plenty of friends in Latin America and Africa. The two largest and populous region. What difference is we don't go aggressively pursuing friendship like Washington through pressure and coercion. That, of course, I'm afraid will change in the future as we gather our global footprint. You will see so called friends pop up everywhere like a balloon. LOL

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## Pakistan First

More sleepless nights for Moddi.

This is history in the making: Turkey-Iran-Pakistan-China-Russia

Those into eschatology know the significance.

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## ahojunk

_A flop in Russia but a success in China, go figure.
The Chinese taste is different to the Russian, perhaps?_

---------
*Russian fantasy film becomes box office hit in China*
Published time: 22 Aug, 2016 13:01






The movie featuring dragons, a popular theme in Chinese culture, and made 18.35 million yuan ($2.77 million) at the box office.

The movie made more money in a single day than during its entire run in Russia and the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States) earlier this year.

As of the end of the weekend, the fantasy drama earned $6.77 million with an audience of nearly 1.5 million people.

Released in Russia last December, ‘He is a Dragon’ became an internet hit in China after a pirated copy of the video appeared on the web. One of the pirated videos got 3.7 million views in just five days, according to Vedomosti daily.

The popularity of the movie came as a surprise to the producers. The principal character of the drama does not fit the image of the dragon in Chinese culture as a good omen symbolizing success, power and good luck.

_“When we presented the movie to Chinese distributors, they said that locals are unlikely to be interested in the picture because of its plot, as the dragon is featured as a negative character bringing evil, which fundamentally contradicts the national image,”_ said Valeriya Dobrolyubova, the head of Bazelevs sales department as quoted by RIA Novosti.

‘He is a Dragon’ is on its way to becoming the most successful Russian movie released in China. That honor belongs to the 2013 war drama ‘Stalingrad’, which made $11.8 million at the Chinese box office with $1.7 million on its opening day.

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## TaiShang

Yet another great concentrated thread by @ahojunk .

**



ahojunk said:


> *China-Russia oil pipeline fuels trade*
> By ZHANG YU/LYU CHANG (China Daily) Updated: 2016-08-19 08:57
> 
> View attachment 329983
> 
> _*Two China National Petroleum Corp employees collect crude oil transported from Russia at the valve chamber in Daqing, Heilongjiang province. GUO JUNFENG/FOR CHINA DAILY*_
> 
> *Huge capacity of link to enhance energy security, cut costs*
> 
> A new China-Russia oil pipeline will help guarantee China's oil consumption and, cut its transportation costs, said Gao Jian, an oil analyst at commodities consultancy Sublime China Information Co Ltd.
> 
> Compared with other countries, Russia has oil of quite good quality, and its location near China makes it competitive in exporting oil to China, Gao said, adding that Russia will certainly become China's largest exporter of oil in the near future.
> 
> The European economic situation made Russia shift its oil export destinations to the Asia-Pacific region, while China, as one of the world's largest oil consumers, has the need to import oil from neighboring countries, according to Gao.
> 
> Construction of the second China-Russia crude oil pipeline started recently in northeastern China's Heilongjiang province, a move that expands the capability for oil transportation from Russia to China.
> 
> The pipeline, traversing the China-Russia border, is 940 km in length and 813 mm in diameter, with a capacity to transport 15 million tons of crude oil annually, according to China National Petroleum Corporation.
> 
> The Chinese section of the pipeline starts from the border city of Mohe in Heilongjiang, runs southward through the Inner Mongolia autonomous region and ends at Daqing in Heilongjiang.
> 
> The pipeline is expected to be put into operation at the beginning of 2018.
> 
> It will run parallel to an existing pipeline－the first China-Russia crude oil pipeline that was put into use in 2011, which can also transport 15 million tons of oil each year.
> 
> According to the CNPC Economics & Technology Research Institute, China imported 328 million tons of oil last year.
> 
> In 2015, Russia exported 41.04 million tons of crude oil to China, making China the country's largest oil importer, Russian media reported.
> 
> That means more than 12.5 percent of crude oil China imported last year was from Russia.
> 
> China and Russia signed a cooperation agreement on expanding bilateral trade in crude oil in 2013.
> 
> Following the agreement, CNPC signed a trade contract with Rosneft, Russia's largest oil producer, to expand the supply of oil for China.
> 
> Building a new pipeline is the main action under the contract.



Wow， a second oil pipeline in the making. This is for sure ensure that Russia remains the top crude provider. Now, onto 2018, natural gas from eastern Russia will start to flow, elevating Russia's share in natural gas market, as well.

China will have more presence in the strategic sea routes while its dependency on those routes for energy import declines (currently, it pretty much stabilized).

**

*Teaching Beijing to Play Hockey *

_Kunlun Red Star is the first Chinese team to play in Russia's Kontinental Hockey League._

By Matthew Bodner
Aug. 25 2016 — The Moscow Times







“China is a great sports nation. It has enormous human resource potential, possesses all modern technologies, and ice hockey enjoys full state support, so why not?” Vladimir Krechin, Red Star general manager. HC Kunlun Red Star

After three straight preseason losses, Beijing’s Red Star won their first match in the Kontinental Hockey League (KHL). Barely six weeks old, they toppled Kazakhstan’s Barys Astana 3-1, prompting a team-to-team fight. Three days later, when the two teams met again, it was clear that a new KHL rivalry has been born.

It was the first game of Kazakhstan’s President’s Cup—a traditional curtain-raiser for the KHL season in late August. Tension between the teams was apparent within the first three minutes. Astana player Dmitry Rypsayev tried to single-handedly fight the entire Red Star roster, and saw some success.

Going into this Aug. 8 match with just 23 games of KHL play under his belt, Ryspayev had yet to score a single goal. But with 194 minutes spent in the penalty box during that time, the young Kazakh’s genius for on-ice violence was clear. Red Star didn’t have anyone on their roster to match that kind of pugilistic talent. The team’s Russian coach, Vladimir Yurzinov Jr., pulled his players from the ice.

It was a strategic decision: accept a forfeit and ensure the team is healthy enough to fight another day. This matchup was, after all, intended to be a friendly preseason game and trial run leading into the Aug. 22 start of the KHL season. For Red Star, these games were also intended to set the stage for their arrival in Beijing for their first home game on Sept. 5.

Fighting would give the new Chinese audience the wrong idea about hockey, the KHL reasoned. When the league decided to hand Ryspayev a lifetime ban on Aug. 18, it used precisely those reasons to justify it. While there is a place for fair fighting in hockey, said KHL President Dmitry Chernyshenko, there is no place for Ryspayev’s assault on the “newcomer.”

“We are constantly working to attract a new audience and broaden the game’s geographical reach,” Chernyshenko continued, “and Ryspayev’s behavior is not merely harmful in a sporting context, it also blackens the image of the league.”

Dmitry Ryspayev tried to fight most of the Red Star roster. TEHNO_News / YouTube

*The Great Game *
Kunlun Red Star, as the team is officially known, is China’s first team to join the Russian-dominated KHL. Behind the National Hockey League (NHL), the KHL is widely regarded as the second most competitive hockey league in the world. While there has been talk for over a year that Beijing was trying to assemble a KHL team, Red Star only joined the league on June 25.

The ceremony inducting Red Star into the KHL was picturesque. Russian President Vladimir Putin, in Beijing for a series of high-level state negotiations, sat next to his counterpart Xi Jinping. The two watched as KHL Vice President Roman Rotenberg and chairman of the KHL board Gennady Timchenko— both longtime Putin allies—signed a formal agreement with Red Star’s management.

Ostensibly a Chinese team—ownership remains murky—Red Star is coached and managed by seasoned Russians. The club has an explicit mission: to play a central role in developing Chinese hockey ahead of Beijing’s hosting of the 2022 Winter Olympics, says Red Star General Manager Vladimir Krechin.

Hockey is one of the contest’s most prestigious events, and Russia has been one of the world’s preeminent hockey powers for decades, with the Soviet national team famously dominant at international competition. In this way, teaching China hockey is one of the few areas of the Russia-China relationship where Moscow can confidently play the coveted role of senior partner.

“I see Red Star as a club that will bring ice hockey in China to the next level,” Krechin says. “The partnership will involve much more than just building one professional club. There is a vast, long-term program covering everything: youth programs, coaching programs, international tournaments for different levels, and much more.”

The man tapped to spearhead this effort was Russian hockey coach Vladimir Yurzinov Jr., the son of a famous Soviet hockey player. His role is a critical one in Red Star’s political goodwill mission. By building a team that can play what he calls “attractive hockey,” Chinese fans can discover a sport they can get behind, and the sport’s infrastructure will fall into place.





American hockey player Chad Rau, one of the team’s NHL veterans, plays the position of forward. He is one of the team’s experienced foreign players. HC Kunlun Red Star

*Red Star Rising *
“It is impossible at this moment to find Chinese players good enough to form an entire team,” Yurzinov says. KHL regulations stipulate that at least 10 players represent the host nation, or are otherwise Russian. The team is then free to pad out the remainder of the roster with experienced NHL players and veterans from the KHL.

According to one of the team’s Chinese recruits, 18-yearold Rudi Ying, the problem is mainly a difference in approach. “The basic mistake Chinese players make, he says, “is treating hockey like a skill sport, not a contact team sport.”

The difference became apparent to Ying 10 years ago, when his family moved to the United States and he entered the youth league system there.

They also lack what Ying called “game sense” and a sense of competitiveness. This stems from the typical Chinese season schedule. During the crucial stretch from ages 12 to 18, Chinese players will play no more than 20 games a season, while kids in the United States and Europe typically play anywhere from 60 to 80 games.

But in the decade since Ying left China to play in the United States, support for the game has steadily grown. China has fielded teams in the less prestigious Asia League Ice Hockey (ALIH), and has a decent elementary school training system. The problem is in training players through high school and into college. The idea is for Red Star to eventually form an academy to fill this gap.

Meanwhile, Yurzinov’s Chinese players, like Ying, must be the vanguard of a new generation of Chinese hockey talent. It is likely that Red Star players will in six years be called upon to form the backbone of a Chinese national team at the 2022 Beijing Olympics. “I see it as my duty to help the development of Chinese hockey,” Ying says, expecting to heed the call down the line.

“The only reason hockey is not popular in China is that people don’t know about it. I think once they see it, they will fall in love, and Red Star is really going to help with that,” he says. In the short term, this will be handled by Red Star’s foreign players. Even rookie Russians like Alexander Mikulovich say they have been encouraged to pass along their skills.

“The owner came in one day and said to us: ‘Guys, I know that the Chinese players are not as good as you, but just try to be nice to them. And, if possible, teach them some stuff,” Mikulovich says.

While this might sound patronizing to some, Ying said it was the key selling point that drew him from the traditional North American developmental leagues to the KHL. “I had a long conversation with my agent about how the guys on the team are going to take me under their wing. Some of them have close to 10 years experience on me, and they’ve been really helpful,” he says.





Red Star coach Vladimir Yurzinov. HC Kunlun Red Star

While Yurzinov and his players are looking to bring their Chinese teammates up to their level, the coach needs to ensure he has a team that can win. If Red Star is unable to develop into a competitive organization, the entire project could fail. “No one expects heroics from a newborn team, but who wants to be a bunch of clowns on ice? Who wants to lose day after day?” he says.

And so, as Red Star prepares for its first game of the KHL season in Khabarovsk on Sept. 1, the coaching staff continues to play with its roster. The latest rumors circulating online are that Red Star is courting its own answer to KHL hit men like banned Astana player Ryspayev.

On Aug. 18, KHL sportswriter Aivis Kalniņš wrote on Twitter that the club made a contract offer to infamous Canadian enforcer Brian McGrattan. The former NHL player holds a dubious record in the lesser American Hockey League (AHL): most time spent in the penalty box during one season, standing at 551 minutes.

Next time Red Star has to fight, it will be ready.

@vostok

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## TaiShang

Sinopakfriend said:


> Yet we should NEVER underestimate the cunning and skills of troublemakers...they might not fight the SCO or China or Russia openly but their proxies are equally vicious...
> 
> Just look to the South...india is running to US to become the junior partner in the global empire...while sitting in SCO, BRICS or AIIB.



Definitely, the disagreements persist. But, a practical, pragmatic alliance is possible despite the fact that there are serious disagreements on various issues.

The Turkey has serious beef with every NATO member, practically, but this does not prevent NATO from looming largely on Russia.

The US and France were at each other's throat during the Second Iraq War. Yet, NATO survives.

That's what makes institutions special. They provide solid structures. Your are either in or out. But, if you are in, you need to comply with the house rules that you sign to gain the access.

Currently, neither India nor Pakistan are full SCO members. They have to read through the protocols and rules, and pass them in their national assemblies. Then, they are granted full membership.

If India plays double or breaks rules, it will be kicked out more quickly than it was let in. That's so simple. No body is naïve or stupid; especially China and Russia. They, of course, are able to read through the mind of an Indian or anybody else, for that matter.

Yet, I still am of the opinion that India will be an asset in the SCO's expansion despite that bilateral disagreements with China remains.



Economic superpower said:


> India-Russia relationship was merely a money earning business for Russia by selling weapons. They needed the money. Apart from that there is absolutely NOTHING to that relationship. That money earning business will slow since India has chosen to sleep with America and buy their weapons.
> 
> India has never supported Russia in any of its geopolitical rivalries with the US. Geopolitical support to Russia is the most important in its battle with America right now. India can offer next to nothing on that.
> 
> In fact, with India agreeing to being a complete vassal state of the US now, Russia is starting to realise it can no longer trust India. That's why Russia is getting closer to China.
> 
> Russian media has also turned anti-India recently. Before it was all praise for India. Russia is suspicious of India's agenda. The shift is happening and only you Indians don't realise it.



Well said.

India provides nothing to Russia that China does, in terms of material benefits and strategic depth.

After all, it was not India that signed a 400 billion USD natural gas deal with Russia.

Besides, India has not been vocal about Russia's self-defence policies of recent years while China has made serious and real commitments to assist Russia in times of direst need.

India is itself an industrial/technological midget, has no land connection with Russia, and can only serve as a weapons customer. The last item is the only meaningful tie that Russia probably is caring about.

But, just as Vietnam, India can easily find another patron; customers are always fickle.

What is needed is institutionalization.

And, apart from the Western alliance, the only viable institution maker in the world is China. And Russia is the number 1 guest and partner in every institution China creates.

Think of the OBOR-EEU integration. That by itself is larger than the past 50 years of India-Russia relations.



Pakistan First said:


> More sleepless nights for Moddi.
> 
> This is history in the making: Turkey-Iran-Pakistan-China-Russia
> 
> Those into eschatology know the significance.



I agree, except Turkey. Turkey is currently on the Western alliance and will most likely come at each other's throat with Russia soon as, as excited and roused up as they are, the Turkish state arms a foreign entity in Syia and violates Syrian sovereignty against the approval of the legitimate government.

No, Turkey and China-Russia are anti-thesis of each other in terms of political ideology, affiliation and world view.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> Yet another great concentrated thread by @ahojunk .



@TaiShang , You are welcome.
My hope is this *"China & Far East" forum* will serve to educate and broaden our knowledge of this increasingly important part of the world.

Thanks for posting this:-


TaiShang said:


> *Teaching Beijing to Play Hockey *
> 
> _Kunlun Red Star is the first Chinese team to play in Russia's Kontinental Hockey League._
> 
> By Matthew Bodner
> Aug. 25 2016 — The Moscow Times


.
It's good to see China and Russia's relationship goes beyond business.


========
Russia-China Power of Siberia Gas Pipeline Project on Schedule
15:00 25.08.2016






*Russia’s Gazprom and China affirm full compliance with the schedule in the implementation of the Power of Siberia pipeline project via the eastern route, Gazprom said in a statement Thursday*.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Gazprom CEO Alexei Miller hosted Chinese Ambassador to Russia Li Hui at the company’s headquarters in Moscow earlier in the day. "Key items on the agenda are deliveries of Russian pipeline gas to China. The sides confirmed their full compliance with the schedule of the gas supply project through the eastern route, and discussed the progress of negotiations on the western route delivery project," the company said.

Gazprom signed a 30-year framework agreement with the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) in 2014 for annual deliveries of 38 billion cubic meters of Russian gas through the eastern route pipeline, formally known as the Power of Siberia and expected to come on-stream in late 2019.

In May, Gazprom said that 71 miles of the pipeline's 3,000 kilometers to stretch across Russian territory were constructed in 2015. Another 250 miles are planned to be completed in 2016. The CNPC plans to build up to 50 kilometers on Chinese territory this year.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20160825/1044627628/power-of-siberia-gas.html

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> Definitely, the disagreements persist. But, a practical, pragmatic alliance is possible despite the fact that there are serious disagreements on various issues.
> 
> The Turkey has serious beef with every NATO member, practically, but this does not prevent NATO from looming largely on Russia.
> 
> The US and France were at each other's throat during the Second Iraq War. Yet, NATO survives.
> 
> That's what makes institutions special. They provide solid structures. Your are either in or out. But, if you are in, you need to comply with the house rules that you sign to gain the access.
> 
> Currently, neither India nor Pakistan are full SCO members. They have to read through the protocols and rules, and pass them in their national assemblies. Then, they are granted full membership.
> 
> If India plays double or breaks rules, it will be kicked out more quickly than it was let in. That's so simple. No body is naïve or stupid; especially China and Russia. They, of course, are able to read through the mind of an Indian or anybody else, for that matter.
> 
> Yet, I still am of the opinion that India will be an asset in the SCO's expansion despite that bilateral disagreements with China remains.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said.
> 
> India provides nothing to Russia that China does, in terms of material benefits and strategic depth.
> 
> After all, it was not India that signed a 400 billion USD natural gas deal with Russia.
> 
> Besides, India has not been vocal about Russia's self-defence policies of recent years while China has made serious and real commitments to assist Russia in times of direst need.
> 
> India is itself an industrial/technological midget, has no land connection with Russia, and can only serve as a weapons customer. The last item is the only meaningful tie that Russia probably is caring about.
> 
> But, just as Vietnam, India can easily find another patron; customers are always fickle.
> 
> What is needed is institutionalization.
> 
> And, apart from the Western alliance, the only viable institution maker in the world is China. And Russia is the number 1 guest and partner in every institution China creates.
> 
> Think of the OBOR-EEU integration. That by itself is larger than the past 50 years of India-Russia relations.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, except Turkey. Turkey is currently on the Western alliance and will most likely come at each other's throat with Russia soon as, as excited and roused up as they are, the Turkish state arms a foreign entity in Syia and violates Syrian sovereignty against the approval of the legitimate government.
> 
> No, Turkey and China-Russia are anti-thesis of each other in terms of political ideology, affiliation and world view.



My brother, you analysis is yet again valid and rational. Wonderful!

A few points though...

1- Turkey in SCO, OBOR-EEU is better than out. Let us not forget its a pivotal state. The most important thing is that Turkey needs to find a frank and mutually benenifitial understanding with China. I think you know what I mean. Same with Russia. First test: Syria...here Turkey has to join a win-win solution with Sino-Russian perspective. 

2- india has taken too unconstructive approach lately. It has been overestimating its reach and capabilities of late and is trying to provoke/contain/insult China rather openly. By joining a military alliance it has clearly joined the troublemakers camp.

In eurasian space Russia and China chose a win-win paradigm and worked towards integeration of OBOR-EEU. Where as india envisions itself as competitor of China in that space. Just read their think tanks papers let alone there 'free and dimmocratic' media.. 

China accomodated indian ego every step of the way... but its behaviour has been not constructive to say it politely. 

3- There is troublemakers sponsored/created noise in SCS & ECS...india is threatening to suboage CPEC, trying to drill oil in Chinese waters, joining US led alliance with JP, AUS to contain China in the Chinese Seas..joining US in military alliance to Contain China in South, South West Asia, ME and AFrica..even the western media has trumped it this way. Scan the net and you will see it validated.


The scenario that is emerging is that Sino-Russian partnership is the core..where our Pak brothers form a bridge in South West Asia and ME..and eurasian space is decidely under this core.

I only percieve that india has fully joined the troublemakers camp and wish to pressure China on border and other strategic issues..since india doesnt have strength to do it alone it wishes to ride the US for its purposes.

China must as always show Virtue and manage the Sun Wukong with Wisdom and Patience. 

But 500 years of humilty is the destiny of Sun Wukong.

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## ahojunk

*The 9th Meeting of China-Russia Joint Committee on Proper Use and Protection of Transboundary Waters Held in St. Petersburg*
2016/08/05

From August 1 to 4, 2016, the 9th Meeting of China-Russia Joint Committee on Proper Use and Protection of Transboundary Waters was held in St. Petetsburg, Russia. Chairman on the Chinese side of the Joint Committee and Vice Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin, Chairman on the Russian side of the Joint Committee and Acting Head of the Federal Water Resources Agency Nikanorov Vadim of Russia, and representatives from ministries of foreign affairs, environmental protection, water resources, border defense and others as well as relevant local governments in border regions of the two countries attended the meeting.




The meeting reviewed and summarized the fruitful achievements of the Joint Committee since the 8th meeting, formulated and ratified the 2017 working plans of the Joint Committee and two working groups of water quality monitoring and protection and water resources management, and exchanged candid and in-depth views on topics of common interest, reaching important consensus.




Speaking highly of the important role of the Joint Committee in advancing mutual understanding and trust between both countries in the field of transboundary waters and constantly deepening relevant practical cooperation, both sides stressed their willingness to join efforts so as to make greater contributions to safeguarding the common and long-term interests of both countries and enriching the connotation of China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination.

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

As usual ~ *ALWAYS AWESOME Top Notch* thread created by *Super Awesome* @ahojunk

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## Pakistan First

TaiShang said:


> I agree, except Turkey. Turkey is currently on the Western alliance and will most likely come at each other's throat with Russia soon as, as excited and roused up as they are, the Turkish state arms a foreign entity in Syia and violates Syrian sovereignty against the approval of the legitimate government.
> 
> No, *Turkey and China-Russia are anti-thesis of each other in terms of political ideology*, affiliation and world view.



And therein lies the upcoming surprise. Stay tuned.

Indeed, from several aspects Russia (or China for that matter), is very different from most of the Muslim countries, however, as we've seen in the past numerous times, there have been alliances. And in the coming years, there's a school of thought in the Islamic world, which foresees the Islamic countries aligning themselves with Russia (and China), including Turkey. We, as students of Islamic eschatology are therefore, watching these recent development very closely.

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

@hoangsa74 

Is below your trademark ... ... ??

A Southern Vietnamese Backstabbing traitor who is selling out Vietnam 
Long term Prosperity to the white anglo saxon scums. 
Many people wonder if the said Southern Vietnamese parents are exhibiting the same 
Treacherous and Backstabbing trait as well ??

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## TaiShang

Pakistan First said:


> And therein lies the upcoming surprise. Stay tuned.
> 
> Indeed, from several aspects Russia (or China for that matter), is very different from most of the Muslim countries, however, as we've seen in the past numerous times, there have been alliances. And in the coming years, there's a school of thought in the Islamic world, which foresees the Islamic countries aligning themselves with Russia (and China), including Turkey. We, as students of Islamic eschatology are therefore, watching these recent development very closely.



I am not sure about the future or eschatological extrapolations. I believe in causality and dialectic. 

But, maybe, with a Heavenly strike of good fortune, Turkey returns to its revolutionary secular roots. Then, it would be a more workable partner.

Yet, under current situation, China does not see Turkey nothing more than an economic actor. We have absolute political mistrust in the current sectarian and religio-imperialist foreign policy ideology of Turkish government. That's an anti-thesis of China's very founding principles and vice versa.

That's perhaps why the now outlawed Islamic cleric, Gulen, once sanctioned and heavily sponsored by the current Turkish regime (up until 2013), has never been given space in China or Russia to function and flourish its dangerous religious ideology.

I believe Russia has similar view although, due to geographic proximity, it has somehow deeper relations with Turkey. But, as things are developing in Syria, if there is no deeper conspiracy between Russia and Turkey, the relations will go even further down then it was during the Russian fighter jet crisis.

@Economic superpower



Sinopakfriend said:


> 1- Turkey in SCO, OBOR-EEU is better than out. Let us not forget its a pivotal state. The most important thing is that Turkey needs to find a frank and mutually benenifitial understanding with China. I think you know what I mean. Same with Russia.* First test: Syria...here Turkey has to join a win-win solution with Sino-Russian perspective.*



That's the ideal situation and I agree on this point although I suspect its practical functionality under current situation. But, I have no faith that the highlighted expectation would come through. Since the 1950s, Turkey has been part and parcel of the NATO-led opposition to anything that is represented by China and Russia. First and foremost, the socialist worldview. I do not see the current Turkish leadership, with its absolute grip on the state and ideology, will have any ideological congruence with China or Russia.

Heck, their National Parliament leader just called revolutionary Che a _killer_.

I read that he was the same person that was among those who attacked and killed several left revolutionaries in the 1950s when those revolutionaries were protesting against the visiting US naval ship in Istanbul. Same ideology, same linage, same tradition. Only stronger.



Sinopakfriend said:


> 2- india has taken too unconstructive approach lately. It has been overestimating its reach and capabilities of late and is trying to provoke/contain/insult China rather openly. By joining a military alliance it has clearly joined the troublemakers camp.



I agree. That's why I believe, beyond the practical economic considerations, India is not a strategic partner. But China shares a long border with India, hence, the geographic reality cannot be denied. Hence, practical solutions need to be sought. Institutional learning under the SCO framework might work.



Sinopakfriend said:


> 3- There is troublemakers sponsored/created noise in SCS & ECS...india is threatening to suboage CPEC, trying to drill oil in Chinese waters, joining US led alliance with JP, AUS to contain China in the Chinese Seas..joining US in military alliance to Contain China in South, South West Asia, ME and AFrica..even the western media has trumped it this way. Scan the net and you will see it validated.



That's all reality itself and, India is not doing anything visionary, obviously. It is copy and paste from the Philippines, Vietnam and Japan's playbook. That's unfortunate. Nonetheless, because these are all China's land and sea neighbors, China needs to economically engage them while geopolitically reinforces its indigenous defence capabilities. That's the only way to go. China can easily deny the existence, say, of Turkey on its geopolitical radar, but one cannot deny Japan. China needs to engage. Engagement, like you say often, through new discourses and frameworks like the OBOR or the SCO might give the optimum, although not desired, outcome.



Sinopakfriend said:


> The scenario that is emerging is that Sino-Russian partnership is the core..where our Pak brothers form a bridge in South West Asia and ME..and eurasian space is decidely under this core.



I agree. I would define China-Russia partnership as the core of the new Eurasian space. Central Asia, Pakistan and Iran function under this core. Currently, the direction of the Eurasian land bridge is Western Europe, not West Asia or the Middle East. By simply looking at the newly launched train and road network across China's west, we can see that the present focus is on Russia, Central Asia and Pakistan.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> I am not sure about the future or eschatological extrapolations. I believe in causality and dialectic.
> 
> But, maybe, with a Heavenly strike of good fortune, Turkey returns to its revolutionary secular roots. Then, it would be a more workable partner.
> 
> Yet, under current situation, China does not see Turkey nothing more than an economic actor. We have absolute political mistrust in the current sectarian and religio-imperialist foreign policy ideology of Turkish government. That's an anti-thesis of China's very founding principles and vice versa.
> 
> That's perhaps why the now outlawed Islamic cleric, Gulen, once sanctioned and heavily sponsored by the current Turkish regime (up until 2013), has never been given space in China or Russia to function and flourish its dangerous religious ideology.
> 
> I believe Russia has similar view although, due to geographic proximity, it has somehow deeper relations with Turkey. But, as things are developing in Syria, if there is no deeper conspiracy between Russia and Turkey, the relations will go even further down then it was during the Russian fighter jet crisis.
> 
> @Economic superpower
> 
> 
> 
> That's the ideal situation and I agree on this point although I suspect its practical functionality under current situation. But, I have no faith that the highlighted expectation would come through. Since the 1950s, Turkey has been part and parcel of the NATO-led opposition to anything that is represented by China and Russia. First and foremost, the socialist worldview. I do not see the current Turkish leadership, with its absolute grip on the state and ideology, will have any ideological congruence with China or Russia.
> 
> Heck, their National Parliament leader just called revolutionary Che a _killer_.
> 
> I read that he was the same person that was among those who attacked and killed several left revolutionaries in the 1950s when those revolutionaries were protesting against the visiting US naval ship in Istanbul. Same ideology, same linage, same tradition. Only stronger.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. That's why I believe, beyond the practical economic considerations, India is not a strategic partner. But China shares a long border with India, hence, the geographic reality cannot be denied. Hence, practical solutions need to be sought. Institutional learning under the SCO framework might work.
> 
> 
> 
> That's all reality itself and, India is not doing anything visionary, obviously. It is copy and paste from the Philippines, Vietnam and Japan's playbook. That's unfortunate. Nonetheless, because these are all China's land and sea neighbors, China needs to economically engage them while geopolitically reinforces its indigenous defence capabilities. That's the only way to go. China can easily deny the existence, say, of Turkey on its geopolitical radar, but one cannot deny Japan. China needs to engage. Engagement, like you say often, through new discourses and frameworks like the OBOR or the SCO might give the optimum, although not desired, outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I would define China-Russia partnership as the core of the new Eurasian space. Central Asia, Pakistan and Iran function under this core. Currently, the direction of the Eurasian land bridge is Western Europe, not West Asia or the Middle East. By simply looking at the newly launched train and road network across China's west, we can see that the present focus is on Russia, Central Asia and Pakistan.


.


Yes, indeed. First the inner circle then the outer rings...the priority is rightfully, well thought through, to integerate EU, EEU and South West Asia through OBOR.


This is going well...on its foundations next phase shall be built. I am extremely delighted with deligence and foresight that the Chinese planners have shown. 


The end game in the first phase remains..Germany.

With German industrialists just waiting for the right moment to embark upon their investment journey Eastwards. This is where growth is going to happend for the coming decades...and all roads lead for Germans from Moscow to BeiJing.

Regarding, engagements with the immediate neighbours...your view is correct again. Economic integeration and some begnign neglect of bad behviour is the right course. Pragmatic.

Turkey is a very long term prospect. A generational thing...on the Game of _Go_...slow does it. 

Look brother, BRICS is rather dead. And there is only R&C left. So, we must treat it as such. 

I do percieve a new framework to emerge in due time to replace it. But I will leave it at that. Anything on the matter will be speculative...which I don't prefer.

The operative dynamics, on the other hand, are very encouraging. Without overestimation or arrogance..China must continue the present course. 

Sometimes, I do wish to be active part of it. But who knows...

You keep up the good work! Love your views and analyses.

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## ahojunk

_This is from Sputnik, a Russian viewpoint. An interesting read.
IMHO, this friendship/alliance is helped along by the policies of Obama.
I sometimes wonder if America and its think tanks seriously think through its policies and strategies._

--------
Towards an Alliance? Current State and Prospects of Russia-China Friendship
14:46 27.08.2016(updated 15:36 27.08.2016)






*Russia and China are close political allies. Beijing is actively investing in the Russian economy. In future, the two countries may also form a military alliance, an article by Russian experts read*.

On September 2, the Eastern Economic Forum 2016 will kick off in Russia’s Vladivostok. The main topic on the agenda will be boosting economic cooperation between Russia and Asian countries. 

The article was prepared for the forum by Vasily Kashin, senior research fellow at the Institute for Far Eastern Studies, and Anastasia Pyatachkova, research fellow at the Higher School of Economics. The authors highlighted the main areas of cooperation between Moscow and Beijing and provided a prognosis. 

China and Russia are major economic partners, including a number of infrastructure and investment projects. However, Russian and Western analysts have repeatedly claimed that economic cooperation between Moscow and Beijing is slowing down.

The authors noted that the main problem in assessing the actual scope of this cooperation is the lack of reliable statistics. However, according to the article, economic cooperation between Russia and China is blooming. 

Recently, Chinese economists assessed Chinese investments into the Russian economy at $32-33 billion, based on data about major Chinese projects in Russia. 

*"The sum says that China is already one of the biggest investors in Russia. […] In addition, China is Russia’s second-biggest trade partner, after the European Union, with a trade volume of $68 billion in 2015," Lenta.ru cited the article.*​
The crisis in Ukraine sparked debates on the possibility of a Russian-Chinese alliance. However, both countries have repeatedly denied the idea of a formal political and military alliance due to obvious reasons, the article read. 

Such an alliance would justify the NATO expansion to the east as well as an increased US military presence in Asia. 

*"At the same time, a formal alliance would produce some benefits for both countries. First, it would provide security guarantees for Russia and China. Second, it would facilitate military and political coordination," the authors wrote*.​
Russia and China have long been engaged in intense military cooperation, including major joint drills since 2005. The Chinese military is also actively involved in Russian military contests, like the tank biathlon and Aviadarts.

Russian-Chinese drills are focused on joint counterterrorism operations on land and actions against enemy submarines and aviation. In 2016, Russia and China held a joint missile defense exercise and joint maneuvers of the Russian National Guard and the Chinese People’s Police forces. 

Moreover, there has been an intense exchange of visits by the presidents and prime ministers of Russia and China. During his presidency, Russian leader Vladimir Putin has paid 11 official visits to China. 

Moscow and Beijing also coordinate positions on a number of international issues, including Iran, Syria, US missile defense, and development of joint initiatives, including on global strategic stability and information security. 

Russia and China have communication channels between different ministries, security agencies, military and diplomatic officials. 

*"The level of coordination and military cooperation between Moscow and Beijing is more than just a partnership. The economic part of the cooperation is not that developed as the military part but it’s also developing. As a result, cooperation between Russia and China already resembles an alliance," the article read*.​
The authors also noted that there are difficulties in Russian-Chinese ties, particularly in economic cooperation. For example, both the Russian and Chinese economies are dominated by bureaucratic state-owned corporations, slowing down many joint projects. 

*"Cooperation between Moscow and Beijing started in the mid-1990s and is now developing. The Ukrainian crisis and tensions in the South China Sea have slightly accelerated the cooperation. In the future, ties between Russia and China are likely to have clear strategic goals," the authors concluded*.​
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20160827/1044691247/russia-china-cooperation.html

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## ahojunk

Russia's Primorsky Territory, China's Jilin Region Plan Agriculture Cooperation
12:46 16.08.2016 (updated 12:47 16.08.2016) 







*The authorities of Russia's far-eastern Primorsky Territory and the northeastern Chinese province of Jilin intend to develop cooperation in the agriculture sector, the territory's administration said Tuesday*.

VLADIVOSTOK (Sputnik) — On Tuesday, the Chinese city of Changchun hosted a meeting of Russian and Chinese regional delegations.

*"The sides agreed that agriculture was a promising field for cooperation. The sides are expected to discuss further details at the Russia-China forum for development of modern agriculture, which will start later in the day in the capital of Jilin province, Changchun," the administration said*.​
In May, Russian Agriculture Minister Alexander Tkachev proposed the establishment of a Russia-China business council focused on the agricultural sector to enhance bilateral cooperation in this field.

According to Tkachev, this format will enable closer ties to be forged between Russian and Chinese agricultural companies as well as allowing the full list of joint investment projects in agriculture to be determined, taking into account the interests of all parties involved.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160816/1044313634/russia-china-regions-agriculture.html

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## ahojunk

_Lawyers are lawyers, they also want their cut!_

--------
Belt and Road Initiative needs more support from Chinese lawyers, experts say
By Jiang Jie (People's Daily Online) 10:18, August 29, 2016





_*(Lawyer representatives and experts on Belt and Road initiative at the seminar. Photo/Courtesy of Beijing Lawyers Association)*_

Only 3,000 licensed lawyers out of the 270,000 in China maintain practices dealing with foreign issues and affairs. This number is far below what is needed to meet market demand given the development of the Belt and Road Initiative, according to industry experts.

The figure was released at a seminar held by lawyers associations from Beijing, Tianjin and Hebei province on Aug. 26. The topic of the seminar was the opportunities and challenges of foreign affairs-related law practices.

Of the 3,000 lawyers cited, only 300 can use English fluently in a professional capacity, and approximately 200 work in Beijing, said Zhang Wei, vice president of the Beijing Lawyers Association (BLA), to People’s Daily Online.

“This is far from enough, and this is only counting English-speaking lawyers, who can only cover some countries along the Belt and Road Initiative route. However, many more foreign language-speaking lawyers are needed for the total of 65 countries covered by the route,” Zhang noted, adding that the BLA has pledged to train 200 more lawyers within three years. Zhang also called for more financial support and preferential policies from the authorities to help promote the training.





_*(Experts issue the report at the seminar. Photo/Courtesy of Beijing Lawyers Association)*_

In addition to language barriers, a report compiled by the BLA showed that many lawyers also lack knowledge of foreign legal and social systems, which is necessary to measure and prevent risks during overseas operations or investment.

Chinese companies are relatively weak in dealing with non-market factors overseas, such as international NGOs and labor unions, according to Ke Yinbin, a deputy director of the Center for China & Globalization. Ke said at the seminar that such factors are usually given inadequate attention and slow responses, which then worsens the situation. Instead, Ke suggested, lawyers should help companies to raise their awareness of such factors and thus be better prepared.

Echoing Ke, Ren Jianzhi, chairman of the Belt and Road Legal Research Council of the BLA, noted at the seminar that he personally has handled cases where Chinese companies are required to set up mosques within their perimeter in several Islamic countries.

“One should be able to conduct a case-by-case study to analyze the ‘pain points’ of a country or a company: what it lacks and what it needs – that’s where the market is,” said Zhao Lei, a professor from the Institute of International Strategic Studies of the Central Party School of the CPC．　

At the seminar, Zhao stressed that geography should not be the limitations for the Belt and Road initiative and more countries can be engaged to join the 65 countries covered by the route.

Currently, Chinese companies tend to hire local lawyers who are based in countries where they hope to do business - a practice that is not only relatively costly, but that also takes opportunities away from domestic lawyers, Zhao told reporters after the seminar.

Ren told People’s Daily Online that Chinese lawyers hold more advantages than their foreign counterparts when it comes to familiarity with Chinese culture and decision-making procedures, but that only comprehensive expertise in an overseas environment can ensure the best chance of success abroad.

“Perspectives also need to change for Chinese lawyers. They should stop looking at State-owned companies only – these companies have limited markets – but also offer their services to the vast market of private companies that are eager to try their hand overseas,” Zhao noted.

Also presented at the seminar are Zhou Xiaoyan, head of Department of European Affairs at the Ministry of Commerce, Li Gongtian, deputy chief of Beijing Justice Bureau and Gao Zicheng, president of BLA.

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## ahojunk

*Russia’s Far East to boost agricultural ties with China*
Jeff Pao Aug 8, 2016 6:02am





_*Yury Trutnev says Russian Far East and China can collaborate in more agricultural projects. Photo: EJ Insight*_

Authorities in the Russian Far East region are expected to launch the first batch of projects under a newly established agricultural fund during the Eastern Economic Forum next month.

“We’ve set up an agricultural fund of US$10 billion with Chinese capital,” Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev, who is also the presidential plenipotentiary envoy to the Far Eastern Federal District, said in a media briefing in Vladivostok.

“We will use the fund to implement some environmentally safe and clean food projects,” he said.

A signing ceremony will be held during the forum, which will take place in Vladivostok on Sept. 2 to 3.

Officials will also announce more details about the Sino-Russian partnership.

“China is one of the most active countries in the food production sector today,” Trutnev said. “The Chinese economy has also accumulated a substantial size to enable them to materialize such projects.”

Last December, China announced a deal allowing the importation of Russian agricultural products, including wheat, corn, rice, soybean and rapeseed.

In April, both countries signed a deal setting up an agricultural fund with China contributing 90 percent of the capital and the rest coming from Russia.

Russia holds a 51 percent stake in the fund while China owns the rest.

According to the Ministry for the Development of the Russian Far East, the fund will initially invest 32 billion rubles (US$480 million) in 17 agricultural enterprises in the region, local media reported last week. 

*Sinking oil prices and sanctions*

Over the past two years, the Russian economy has been reeling from declining oil prices and sanctions imposed by the European Union and the United States after the Russian military intervention in Ukraine in 2014.

Average crude oil prices dropped 51.7 percent to US$41.85 last year from US$86.73 in 2014, according to the Illinois Oil and Gas Association.

Russian exports, consisting mainly of oil, gas and metal, fell 31.4 percent to US$341.47 billion during the period, with the downward momentum continuing in the first half of this year.

Following the sanctions that began in March 2014, net flows of foreign direct investment in Russia fell to negative US$59 million in the second half of that year, compared with positive US$11.45 billion in the same period of 2013. The weak trend remained in the first half of 2016.

The Russian ruble weakened to 66.43 against the US dollar at the end of last Friday from 33.98 in mid-2014.

Given the drastic currency depreciation, inflation in Russia hovered above 15 percent last year and eased to about 7 percent recently. Many local residents complain that they cannot afford to buy food and basic necessities.

Amid the weakening economy, Russian President Vladimir Putin hosted the first Eastern Economic Forum in Vladivostok last September with the goal of boosting exports to Asian countries and attracting foreign investments.

Putin also wants to develop the Far East region as a showroom of market economy for the rest of the country to follow.

“Whether we like it or not, sanctions and sinking oil prices have impacted our economy,” Trutnev said. “We will keep discussing with our partners about how to improve our effectiveness.”

He said apart from attracting investments, the second Eastern Economic Forum will also focus on how to strengthen interstate relations and nurture the younger generation of Russians in the region.

Recent economic data and market indicators are suggesting that the worst is over for the Russian economy, Sean Darby, chief global equity strategist at Jefferies LLC, said in a report last month.

“The authorities have kept a very disciplined monetary and fiscal policy to ensure that inflation has remained tempered while fears over a devaluation of the currency have proved groundless,” he said.

*Eastern Economic Forum*

In May, Trutnev visited Japan to promote the Eastern Economic Forum and related investment opportunities across different sectors including agriculture, energy, medicine and food processing in the region.

He also visited Hong Kong and Singapore to drum up investments, followed by a trip to Tianjin in June to attend the World Economic Forum.

“We are creating an environment that relies on investments. Our task is to create a good setting for investors to seek their opportunities,” he said.

“We met with some Hong Kong companies recently. They are showing up on the Russian markets,” he said.

Russia is now setting up an electronic trading platform for a stock market collaboration project between its Far East region and Hong Kong, he added.

Last year, Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang, together with representatives from 75 Chinese companies, attended the first Eastern Economic Forum and signing several investment agreements worth 1.3 trillion rubles.

This year the forum will continue to take place at the Russky Island campus of Far Eastern Federal University, where the 2012 APEC summit was held.

More than 2,400 visitors from 40 countries are expected to participate.

_This is the first of a three-part series that will serve as a curtain-raiser for the second Eastern Economic Forum summit._

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## ahojunk

New railway LNG transport line opens between China and Kazakhstan
(CRI Online) 09:52, July 31, 2016




_*File photo shows the site of an ongoing construction project in an oil and gas treatment plant in Kazakhstan. [Photo: cnpc.com.cn]*_

The first train carrying liquefied natural gas from Kazakhstan to China has arrived at the border crossing at Xinjiang.

It's arrival is being hailed as the next step in greater energy transport connections between China and central Asian countries.

The new rail link for Liquified Natural Gas is expected to help shore-up LNG resources, which have been coming up short in China due to growing demand and the limited capasity at the sea ports to transfer LNG onshore.

Wang Xinchun, director of the Alashankou Free Trade Zone's economic development bureau in Xinjiang, says their port of entry is going to significantly increase energy transport options for China.

"There will be one train each week, which will transport 300-thousand tons year. In the future, we expect to be able to increase the annual LNG imports to 800-thouisand tons or more according to market demand and the needs of domestic companies."

The border crossing at Alashankou in Xinjiang has seen over 8.7 million tons of goods worth over 3.5-billion US dollars pass through so far this year.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

ahojunk said:


> *Russia’s Far East to boost agricultural ties with China*
> Jeff Pao Aug 8, 2016 6:02am
> 
> View attachment 330154
> 
> _*Yury Trutnev says Russian Far East and China can collaborate in more agricultural projects. Photo: EJ Insight*_
> 
> Authorities in the Russian Far East region are expected to launch the first batch of projects under a newly established agricultural fund during the Eastern Economic Forum next month.
> 
> “We’ve set up an agricultural fund of US$10 billion with Chinese capital,” Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev, who is also the presidential plenipotentiary envoy to the Far Eastern Federal District, said in a media briefing in Vladivostok.
> 
> “We will use the fund to implement some environmentally safe and clean food projects,” he said.
> 
> A signing ceremony will be held during the forum, which will take place in Vladivostok on Sept. 2 to 3.
> 
> Officials will also announce more details about the Sino-Russian partnership.
> 
> “China is one of the most active countries in the food production sector today,” Trutnev said. “The Chinese economy has also accumulated a substantial size to enable them to materialize such projects.”
> 
> Last December, China announced a deal allowing the importation of Russian agricultural products, including wheat, corn, rice, soybean and rapeseed.
> 
> In April, both countries signed a deal setting up an agricultural fund with China contributing 90 percent of the capital and the rest coming from Russia.
> 
> Russia holds a 51 percent stake in the fund while China owns the rest.
> 
> According to the Ministry for the Development of the Russian Far East, the fund will initially invest 32 billion rubles (US$480 million) in 17 agricultural enterprises in the region, local media reported last week.
> 
> *Sinking oil prices and sanctions*
> 
> Over the past two years, the Russian economy has been reeling from declining oil prices and sanctions imposed by the European Union and the United States after the Russian military intervention in Ukraine in 2014.
> 
> Average crude oil prices dropped 51.7 percent to US$41.85 last year from US$86.73 in 2014, according to the Illinois Oil and Gas Association.
> 
> Russian exports, consisting mainly of oil, gas and metal, fell 31.4 percent to US$341.47 billion during the period, with the downward momentum continuing in the first half of this year.
> 
> Following the sanctions that began in March 2014, net flows of foreign direct investment in Russia fell to negative US$59 million in the second half of that year, compared with positive US$11.45 billion in the same period of 2013. The weak trend remained in the first half of 2016.
> 
> The Russian ruble weakened to 66.43 against the US dollar at the end of last Friday from 33.98 in mid-2014.
> 
> Given the drastic currency depreciation, inflation in Russia hovered above 15 percent last year and eased to about 7 percent recently. Many local residents complain that they cannot afford to buy food and basic necessities.
> 
> Amid the weakening economy, Russian President Vladimir Putin hosted the first Eastern Economic Forum in Vladivostok last September with the goal of boosting exports to Asian countries and attracting foreign investments.
> 
> Putin also wants to develop the Far East region as a showroom of market economy for the rest of the country to follow.
> 
> “Whether we like it or not, sanctions and sinking oil prices have impacted our economy,” Trutnev said. “We will keep discussing with our partners about how to improve our effectiveness.”
> 
> He said apart from attracting investments, the second Eastern Economic Forum will also focus on how to strengthen interstate relations and nurture the younger generation of Russians in the region.
> 
> Recent economic data and market indicators are suggesting that the worst is over for the Russian economy, Sean Darby, chief global equity strategist at Jefferies LLC, said in a report last month.
> 
> “The authorities have kept a very disciplined monetary and fiscal policy to ensure that inflation has remained tempered while fears over a devaluation of the currency have proved groundless,” he said.
> 
> *Eastern Economic Forum*
> 
> In May, Trutnev visited Japan to promote the Eastern Economic Forum and related investment opportunities across different sectors including agriculture, energy, medicine and food processing in the region.
> 
> He also visited Hong Kong and Singapore to drum up investments, followed by a trip to Tianjin in June to attend the World Economic Forum.
> 
> “We are creating an environment that relies on investments. Our task is to create a good setting for investors to seek their opportunities,” he said.
> 
> “We met with some Hong Kong companies recently. They are showing up on the Russian markets,” he said.
> 
> Russia is now setting up an electronic trading platform for a stock market collaboration project between its Far East region and Hong Kong, he added.
> 
> Last year, Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang, together with representatives from 75 Chinese companies, attended the first Eastern Economic Forum and signing several investment agreements worth 1.3 trillion rubles.
> 
> This year the forum will continue to take place at the Russky Island campus of Far Eastern Federal University, where the 2012 APEC summit was held.
> 
> More than 2,400 visitors from 40 countries are expected to participate.
> 
> _This is the first of a three-part series that will serve as a curtain-raiser for the second Eastern Economic Forum summit._



Food security is joint Sino-Russian strategy for benefit of both peoples.

Already Chinese companies are investing and working in this agro sector in Russia.

With resolution and foregsight both counteries can serve their people well

I am grateful to you, my young brother, that you have dedicated yourself along with @AndrewJin to highlight the Truth and Positve about China.

Both of you enjoy my esteem and love. You both keep up the good work..none of us are so capable and dedicated as you two.

Bless you both!

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## TaiShang

Belt and Road is not only about trade but also culture, as well as cultural infrastructure.

**

http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0830/c90000-9107769.html






sketch showing the design of the new Great Mosque in Algeria's capital Algiers.

A Chinese construction giant will complete the world's third largest mosque in Algeria at the end of December, the housing department of the Algerian government said recently.

According to Agencia EFE, the Algerian housing department said that 85 percent of the construction work of the new Great Mosque in Algeria's capital Algiers had been finished by the China State Construction Engineering Corporation (CSCEC). The service life of the new Great Mosque could last for 400 to 500 years, the Algerian housing department added.






When complete, the new Great Mosque will become Africa's largest mosque, and the world's third largest mosque after those in Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia.

The mosque, built at a cost of 1.3 billion US dollars will cover 400,000 square meters and will have the world's highest minaret soaring 270 meters into the sky. The maximum capacity of the mosque will be 120,000 people; it will also feature a library containing one million works and seating for 2,000; as well as a museum and a research center.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> Belt and Road is not only about trade but also culture, as well as cultural infrastructure.


.
Yes, I agree. OBOR (Belt & Road Initiative) should also cover education and Africa too.



TaiShang said:


> The service life of the new Great Mosque could last for 400 to 500 years, the Algerian housing department added.


.
When I read that the mosque could last for 400 to 500 years, I immediately thought of the Great Wall and the Forbidden City, etc.

All these structures have lasted more than 500 years. IMHO, if a structure can last 500 years, there is a good chance it will last for a thousand years or more.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> *Russia’s Far East to boost agricultural ties with China*
> Jeff Pao Aug 8, 2016 6:02am
> 
> View attachment 330154
> 
> _*Yury Trutnev says Russian Far East and China can collaborate in more agricultural projects. Photo: EJ Insight*_
> 
> Authorities in the Russian Far East region are expected to launch the first batch of projects under a newly established agricultural fund during the Eastern Economic Forum next month.
> 
> “We’ve set up an agricultural fund of US$10 billion with Chinese capital,” Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev, who is also the presidential plenipotentiary envoy to the Far Eastern Federal District, said in a media briefing in Vladivostok.
> 
> “We will use the fund to implement some environmentally safe and clean food projects,” he said.
> 
> A signing ceremony will be held during the forum, which will take place in Vladivostok on Sept. 2 to 3.
> 
> Officials will also announce more details about the Sino-Russian partnership.
> 
> “China is one of the most active countries in the food production sector today,” Trutnev said. “The Chinese economy has also accumulated a substantial size to enable them to materialize such projects.”
> 
> Last December, China announced a deal allowing the importation of Russian agricultural products, including wheat, corn, rice, soybean and rapeseed.
> 
> In April, both countries signed a deal setting up an agricultural fund with China contributing 90 percent of the capital and the rest coming from Russia.
> 
> Russia holds a 51 percent stake in the fund while China owns the rest.
> 
> According to the Ministry for the Development of the Russian Far East, the fund will initially invest 32 billion rubles (US$480 million) in 17 agricultural enterprises in the region, local media reported last week.
> 
> *Sinking oil prices and sanctions*
> 
> Over the past two years, the Russian economy has been reeling from declining oil prices and sanctions imposed by the European Union and the United States after the Russian military intervention in Ukraine in 2014.
> 
> Average crude oil prices dropped 51.7 percent to US$41.85 last year from US$86.73 in 2014, according to the Illinois Oil and Gas Association.
> 
> Russian exports, consisting mainly of oil, gas and metal, fell 31.4 percent to US$341.47 billion during the period, with the downward momentum continuing in the first half of this year.
> 
> Following the sanctions that began in March 2014, net flows of foreign direct investment in Russia fell to negative US$59 million in the second half of that year, compared with positive US$11.45 billion in the same period of 2013. The weak trend remained in the first half of 2016.
> 
> The Russian ruble weakened to 66.43 against the US dollar at the end of last Friday from 33.98 in mid-2014.
> 
> Given the drastic currency depreciation, inflation in Russia hovered above 15 percent last year and eased to about 7 percent recently. Many local residents complain that they cannot afford to buy food and basic necessities.
> 
> Amid the weakening economy, Russian President Vladimir Putin hosted the first Eastern Economic Forum in Vladivostok last September with the goal of boosting exports to Asian countries and attracting foreign investments.
> 
> Putin also wants to develop the Far East region as a showroom of market economy for the rest of the country to follow.
> 
> “Whether we like it or not, sanctions and sinking oil prices have impacted our economy,” Trutnev said. “We will keep discussing with our partners about how to improve our effectiveness.”
> 
> He said apart from attracting investments, the second Eastern Economic Forum will also focus on how to strengthen interstate relations and nurture the younger generation of Russians in the region.
> 
> Recent economic data and market indicators are suggesting that the worst is over for the Russian economy, Sean Darby, chief global equity strategist at Jefferies LLC, said in a report last month.
> 
> “The authorities have kept a very disciplined monetary and fiscal policy to ensure that inflation has remained tempered while fears over a devaluation of the currency have proved groundless,” he said.
> 
> *Eastern Economic Forum*
> 
> In May, Trutnev visited Japan to promote the Eastern Economic Forum and related investment opportunities across different sectors including agriculture, energy, medicine and food processing in the region.
> 
> He also visited Hong Kong and Singapore to drum up investments, followed by a trip to Tianjin in June to attend the World Economic Forum.
> 
> “We are creating an environment that relies on investments. Our task is to create a good setting for investors to seek their opportunities,” he said.
> 
> “We met with some Hong Kong companies recently. They are showing up on the Russian markets,” he said.
> 
> Russia is now setting up an electronic trading platform for a stock market collaboration project between its Far East region and Hong Kong, he added.
> 
> Last year, Chinese Vice Premier Wang Yang, together with representatives from 75 Chinese companies, attended the first Eastern Economic Forum and signing several investment agreements worth 1.3 trillion rubles.
> 
> This year the forum will continue to take place at the Russky Island campus of Far Eastern Federal University, where the 2012 APEC summit was held.
> 
> More than 2,400 visitors from 40 countries are expected to participate.
> 
> _This is the first of a three-part series that will serve as a curtain-raiser for the second Eastern Economic Forum summit._



That's a very important piece of news and defies the popular view that Russia is somehow suspicious of China's intentions with respect to its agriculture activities in the sparsely populated Far East regions.

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## ahojunk

Russia, China to Launch Ecommerce Platform to Promote Russian Produce in China
11:26 31.08.2016 (updated 11:35 31.08.2016)






Russia’s Far East Development Fund reached an agreement that will help to increase food exports to China.

VLADIVOSTOK (Sputnik) — Russia’s Far East Development Fund said Wednesday that it had reached an agreement with the Russian branch of the Chinese technology giant LeEco to establish a so-called LeLive ecommerce platform to increase food exports to China.

LeLive will use the Chinese company's "Le Ecosystem," an online platform, which has a monthly reach of more than 800 million users.

*"The agreement was signed ahead of the Eastern Economic Forum in Moscow. LeLive is created as a full-cycle platform for the creation, promotion, distribution and sales of Russian agribusiness products, which meet high environmental standards, to Chinese end-users," the statement reads*.​
The Russian goods to be sold through the platform will include beverages, confectionery, flour, cereals, canned meat, butter, honey and nuts. Some of these goods will be produced by companies in Russia's Far East that are already in existence and those to be established with the support of the fund, it was noted in the statement.

The Russian fund will provide LeLive with organizational and administrative support in cooperating with agribusinesses in Russia's Far East, helping to attract investment and other forms of participation in the project.

Russia and China have been stepping up their economic cooperation in recent years, reversing the negative trend in trade. In the first half of 2016, bilateral trade rose by 1.8-percent year-on-year, or by more than $31 billion.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160831/1044802717/russia-china-far-east.html

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## ahojunk

*New Russian railway corridor to reduce Trans-Siberian transit time*
August 30, 2016 ALEXANDER KORABLINOV, RBTH

The project is expected to cost $6.5 billion.





_*The Vladivostok railway station. Source: Kommersant*_

A new railway corridor in the Russian Far East will provide a faster connection between the Trans-Siberian railway and the Pacific Ocean via a new port on the Sea of Japan, Sputnik News reported on Aug. 29.

The project, which has a completion date of 2025, is being managed by Khabarovsk-based transport logistics company Samarga-Holding and is expected to cost $6.5 billion, according to the report.

“This transport corridor will be able to serve most of the ports of the Russian Far East, as well as Japan, China and Korea,” Alexander Vasilyev, director of Samarga-Holding told the website. “The project cuts the distance to the Trans-Siberian railway by 550 km and allows much faster transportation of cargo to the European part of Russia.”

Under the project, a logistical center will be built at a railway station in Khabarovsk and a new railway line will be laid from Khabarovsk to the neighboring Primorye Territory, according to the report.

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## ahojunk

Russia Makes Proposal to China on Far East Shipbuilding Investment
13:15 08.08.2016 (updated 13:17 08.08.2016)

*Moscow is interested in attracting Chinese partners to shipbuilding in the Russian Far East, the ambassador to China told Sputnik.*

BEIJING (Sputnik) — Moscow has approached Beijing with a proposal to invest in shipbuilding in Russia’s Far East, Russian Ambassador to China Andrei Denisov told Sputnik.

_"We are proposing our Chinese colleagues to contribute to the development of our shipbuilding in the [Russian] Far East. We are interested in attracting Chinese partners," he said._​
According to the diplomat, it is premature to talk about any specific projects yet. 

_"If the Chinese side expresses interest in the reconstruction and modernization of production at the Russian Zvezda shipyard, then we will consider options, whether it would be investments or the purchase of a stake," he said_.​
The Zvezda shipyard was built in the town of Bolshoy Kamen, in Far East Russia, in the 1950s and was used for repairing naval vessels as well as decommissioning submarines. In late 2000s, plans to modernize the shipyard were announced.

In June, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said that the modernization and expansion of the Zvezda shipyard was one of the most important construction projects in the country as it would enable the implementation of the country's Arctic development plans.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20160808/1044047391/russia-china-shipbuilding-denisov.html

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## Daniel808

*Russia, China Building Yuan-Based Alliance Against Dollar*







The yuan is nearing to become a true international currency. In October, the Chinese currency will be added by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to its list of reserve financial instruments.

A day before the Eastern Economic Forum 2016 started in Russia’s Vladivostok the Russian-Chinese Financial Council held a meeting to discuss boosting ties between Russian and Chinese financial organizations.

Currently, the council comprises 27 Russian and 29 Chinese financial institutions. The council is aimed at facilitating transactions in capital markets and promoting payments in national currencies. Russia and China are actively involved in the Silk Road Economic Belt trade and infrastructure initiative, which is expected to include Russia and the entire Eurasian Economic Union (EEU).

According to Andrei Ivanov, head of the trade financing department at Sberbank CIB, shifting to national currencies should be considered in the perspective of Silk Road integration plans. He underscored that payments in national currencies are an issue of national importance. China is boosting its economic positions. Its share in Russian trade turnover has increased from 11.4 to 13.5 percent.

In addition, the structure of Chinese exports are changing. Russia has increased purchases of hi-tech products from China, including modern equipment and industrial machines.

*Beijing is also making global financial advancements, Ivanov was quoted as saying by the Russian online publication Lenta.ru. The yuan is becoming a real international currency. According to SWIFT data, the yuan is the third most popular currency in trade transactions. In October, the Chinese currency will be included on the list of IMF reserve currencies.*







In November 2015, Christine Lagarde, Managing Director of the IMF, announced that the fund would expand the reserve currency list for the first time in 35 years. There will be five such currencies, including the US dollar, the British pound, euro, the Japanese yen and the yuan.

The yuan was added on the list after China carried out economic liberalization reforms, including easing access for foreigners to the domestic financial market and easing foreign trade rules. Russian and Chinese banks play an important role in switching to national currencies in trade transactions. Banks support deals between Russian and Chinese companies and should promote yuan as the preferable payment tool.

Russia and China need economic integration in their border regions, and banks would play the key role, Mikhail Pavlov, Vice Chairman of the Asian-Pacific Bank, said. The bank currently works with nearly 2,000 companies and 50 percent of them work with China. According to Pavlov, many ATB clients have switched from the dollar to yuan. However, there are several factors that have slowed down the yuan’s march to regional dominance.

Most of them are related to the downturn in the Russian economy and Western sanctions, Pavlov said. At the same time, the Russian economy is expected to return to growth soon.
In addition, Moscow and Beijing signed several dozens of agreements facilitating trade deals. Russian banks are closely watching the yuan’s advances in the global financial market. For example, Sberbank CIB, the investment subsidiary of Russia’s biggest bank Sberbank, plans to issue yuan-denominated bonds in 2017.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20160903/1044933366/china-russia-yuan.html

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## ahojunk

Asian-Pacific Bank Expects Growth of China's Investment to Russia's Far East
21:45 02.09.2016






*It is expected that China will increase investment to projects in Russia's Far East, Andrey Vdovin, the chairman of the Executive Board of the Asian-Pacific Bank, told Sputnik Friday*.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Earlier in the day, the EEF kicked off on Russky Island, near the eastern Russian city of Vladivostok, where the energy cooperation projects of Russia with Asian-Pacific countries are expected to be discussed.

"The progress with Chinese investors will definitely take place. A new reset in Russia-Japan relation can also attract huge capital to the Far East. If we create attractive terms, foreign investors will appear," Vdovin said on the sidelines of the Eastern Economic Forum (EEF) in Vladivostok.

The forum, which is due to run through Saturday, is expected to attract some 2,500 participants, from countries including China, Japan, South Korea, India, Vietnam, Australia, the United States and Singapore.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20160902/1044911774/bank-russia-investment.html

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## TaiShang

Two approaches to OBOR. Which one is the winning one? Only time will tell.

**

*Australia warns new lawmakers to weigh Chinese investment cautiously*
Published by The Edge at 2016-08-31 15:42:07

SYDNEY (Aug 31): Australia has urged legislators to take a more cautious approach in backing China's pursuit of "legitimate interests" and *stay alert to the motives guiding its investments*, in a briefing book published by the non-partisan parliamentary library.

Authored by government officials and distributed ahead of Tuesday's opening of parliament, *the booklet raises concerns that* *"creating a Eurasia-wide, China-led bloc to counter the United States"* is the long-term aim of China's "One Belt, One Road" project, including its investments in northern Australia.

"Some see this initiative as a profound challenge to the current global political and economic status quo," a parliamentary library researcher wrote in the book, designed to guide lawmakers on issues likely to come before them.

"Australia needs to adopt a more economically and strategically prudent attitude in determining how the Australia-China economic relationship is to further develop."

*The caution comes after Treasurer Scott Morrison this month blocked the sale of electricity network Ausgrid to China and Hong Kong buyers, citing undefined national security concerns.*

That followed his rejection of a Chinese consortium's bid for Australia's largest pastoral holding, S. Kidman & Co.

*And a decision to lease a commercial and military port in northern Australia to a Chinese firm last year stirred concerns in the United States.*

Coupled with the recent regulatory pushback to Chinese-led deals, the booklet has spurred some worries about future deals.

"If our industries are to reach their full potential, we need foreign investment," said Helen Sawczak, national chief executive of business grouping the Australia China Business Council.

"Issues raised in the report may deter potential investors. The relationship is strong but it is a concern when these things stack up together."

The 205-page briefing book was handed out to members of parliament ahead of the first session after the July 2 election.

China is Australia's largest trading partner and a large source of foreign investment, spending US$11.1 billion on Australian assets, mostly property, in 2015, accounting and advisory firm KPMG and the University of Sydney have said.

Earlier this month BHP Billiton's Chief Executive Andrew Mackenzie said China's development strategy was advantageous to the region, singling out initiatives such as "One Belt, One Road" and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

"It is so important that Australia is part of that," Mackenzie said on August 16, after the company's annual results.

The parliamentary booklet sets out China's "broader uses" for its growing economic influence.

"China's rise and pursuit of its 'legitimate interests' have been supported by successive Australian governments," it said.

"A key question emerging from China's recent actions in the South China Sea is where do these 'legitimate interests' begin and end - do they include the establishment of 'spheres of influence'?"

***

*Infrastructure helps regional integration *
China Daily, September 5, 2016 




Two Indonesian women pose for a photo in front of a model of China's high-speed train in Walini, West Java province, on Jan 21, 2016 to mark the launch of the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed railway project. [Photo/Xinhua]


Infrastructure connectivity is a focus of both the Belt and Road Initiative and the G20 Leaders Summit because of its significance for boosting economic growth and promoting prosperity.

In the communiqué issued after the G20 Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors Meeting held in Chengdu, Sichuan province on July 23-24, a global infrastructure connectivity alliance was planned to be launched to enhance the synergy and cooperation among various infrastructure connectivity programs in a holistic way.

As the communiqué said, greater interconnectivity is a defining demand of the 21st century global economy and the key to promoting sustainable development and shared prosperity.

A core aim of the Belt and Road Initiative is to achieve connectivity in five aspects, including policy, infrastructure, trade, financing and peoples.

Infrastructure connectivity is a priority area for the Belt and Road Initiative, because it directly relates to trade costs and so will influence a region's trade level.

The development of many countries along the Belt and Road routes is restricted by their underdeveloped infrastructure due to geographic factors and their low financing capacity. That means there is an urgent demand for infrastructure construction in these countries, as well as tremendous market potential to be tapped by improving the infrastructure connectivity along the Belt and Road.

*The Chinese consultancy company SWS Research Co. estimated in a report on the Belt and Road Initiative that the overall investment needed for infrastructure construction in core countries along the Belt and Road is about $3.26 trillion.*

*"Since the launch of the Belt and Road Initiative by July 2016, the total value of the contract projects that China has signed with countries along the routes is $279 billion," said Shen Danyang, a Ministry of Commerce spokesman, at a media briefing on Aug 17.*

A series of infrastructure projects in countries along the routes, mainly ports, railways, highways, airports and telecommunication networks, have been launched recently.

The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, which has been called "the first movement of the symphony of the Belt and Road Initiative" by Wang Yi, China's foreign minister, is the demonstration project of the six economic corridors of the Belt and Road Initiative and the first milestone in the implementation of the initiative.

"Connectivity, linkage and interdependence between China and Pakistan will all increase through the initiative," said Shaukat Aziz, former prime minister of Pakistan, in an exclusive interview with China Daily in July.

Meanwhile, China's technological and management advantage in transportation infrastructure construction, especially high-speed railways, can effectively meet demands of the countries along the routes.

Construction of the China-Thailand railway within the Trans-Asia Railway network and Jakarta-Bandung high-speed railway in Indonesia have successively started, and a batch of highways in countries along the routes have also been launched. A comprehensive regional traffic integration network is gradually forming shape.

Chu Yin, a researcher on the Belt and Road Initiative at the University of International Relations, states that there are three major regions for infrastructure construction along the Belt and Road routes, namely Southeast Asia, South-Central Asia and Africa.

"Infrastructure construction in these areas along the routes will be decisive in promoting regional integration," Chu said.

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## ahojunk

*What’s driving China’s One Belt, One Road initiative?*
2 September 2016
Author: Junhua Zhang, Shanghai Jiao Tong University

Since 2013, the ‘One Belt, One Road’ (OBOR) initiative has become the centrepiece of China’s economic diplomacy. The essence of OBOR is to promote regional and cross-continental connectivity between China and Eurasia. The ‘One Belt’ and ‘One Road’ refer to China’s proposed ‘Silk Road Economic Belt’ and ‘Maritime Silk Road’. Connectivity covers five major areas of interest: policy coordination, infrastructure construction (including railways and highways), unimpeded trade, financial integration and people-to-people ties. Among these, infrastructure construction is the dominant feature of the New Silk Road.





While the historical Silk Road was an upshot of bottom-up trade activities, driven mainly by nations outside China, the OBOR initiative is designed by China’s ruling elites. It represents the first major attempt by China to design and implement a cross-continental mercantile strategy and will surely have significant global and geopolitical consequences.

OBOR is a product of Chinese neomercantilist thinking. Today’s neomercantilism differs from the mercantilism of the 17th to early 20th century, when merchants were often complicit in the imperialism of the great powers in pursuit of increased political power and private wealth. Neomercantilism today is much more constrained, thanks to national and international legal frameworks, reluctance to engage in armed conflicts, as well as a greater widespread appreciation of human rights.

Chinese neomercantilism endorses global trade and its institutions while also pursuing a government-led globalisation strategy to accumulate capital and wealth for the nation. China’s strategy clearly preferences state-owned enterprises (SOEs) and is focused on establishing free trade areas — similar to the China–ASEAN Free Trade Area which came into effect in 2010 — with Central Asia and South Asia.

So what is driving China’s OBOR initiative?

Many of China’s production sectors have been facing overcapacity since 2006. The Chinese leadership hopes to solve the problem of overproduction by exploring new markets in neighbouring countries through OBOR. The OBOR initiative will provide more opportunities for the development of China’s less developed border regions. China also intends to explore new investment options that preserve and increase the value of the capital accumulated in the last few decades. OBOR has the potential to grow into a model for an alternative rule-maker of international politics and could serve as a vehicle for creating a new global economic and political order.

But there are significant risks associated with China’s OBOR strategy. China’s neomercantilism lacks sensitivity when addressing some issues in host countries, particularly regarding culture, environment and ethnicity. Beijing’s authoritarian approach may also impede effective cooperation with democratic countries

The China–Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) project is a prime example of the risks and challenges facing China. CPEC is a combination of transport and energy projects and includes the development of a major deep-sea port offering direct access to the Indian Ocean and beyond. Plans for CPEC were officially formalised in April 2015. According to the agreements of both sides, total costs for the projects currently under construction amount to US$46 billion. Should all the planned projects be implemented, the combined value of the projects would be equal to all foreign direct investment in Pakistan since 1970, and would be equivalent to 17 per cent of its 2015 GDP.

The Chinese leadership sees Pakistan as one of its most longstanding and committed allies. This is why CPEC is being treated as a poster child for the OBOR initiative. Still, many uncertainties exist which could topple the project. CPEC faces domestic political opposition in Pakistan, with infighting between provinces and the central government over the allocation of investment. A more serious issue is that of security. On the Chinese side, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) is hindering Chinese efforts, while on the Pakistani side the Pakistani Taliban and other anti-state militant groups pose an immense threat to construction crews and could disrupt the flow of goods.

With this in mind, in the short term, China’s OBOR initiative will likely only deliver very modest results despite immense investments. It is still hard to predict whether China’s OBOR projects will be effective over the medium-to-long term as this depends on the responsiveness of both governments to challenges, as well as the external environment.

Still, OBOR marks the beginning of a new economic diplomacy for China as it shifts towards being an active driver of the regional and global economy. Whether China’s neomercantilist expansion policy will meet expectations, remains to be seen.

Junhua Zhang is a professor at Shanghai Jiao Tong University, China.

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## ahojunk

_At last count, there are about 40 freight train routes between China and Europe._

--------
*Xi'an launches China-Europe freight train service to Hamburg*
Source: Xinhua | September 3, 2016, Saturday |






A cargo train left Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, for Hamburg in Germany Friday night, local authorities said Saturday.

The train left Xi'an at 8:50 p.m. Friday and will pass through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and Poland before reaching Hamburg, Xi'an international port authority said in a press release.

It said the journey will last 13 days.

The train carries machinery, home appliances, garments and electronic equipment, which will be forwarded from Hamburg to other European cities.

It is the second China-Europe freight train from Xi'an. The first left for Warsaw on Aug. 18.

The train will promote the further opening of Shaanxi Province, and help shape a new international trade route within the framework of China's Belt and Road Initiative, said Han Song, a senior official with Xi'an municipal committee of the Communist Party of China.

"In the future, there'll be an outbound train every week and an inbound train once a month," said Han.

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## TaiShang

*Why Russia and China want to limit US economic influence in Asia-Pacific*

Sep 1, 2016, Russia Direct
Alexander Korolev

*Given new attempts by the U.S. to create economic integration structures that will restrain Chinese dominance in the region, Beijing is working on building deeper economic cooperation with other Asia-Pacific countries – including Russia.*

*



*

_Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (7th R) attends the releasing ceremony of a joint statement on the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) Negotiations in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Nov. 22, 2015. Photo: Xinhua_

In the face of growing competition from the U.S. for the right to play the leading role in the economic growth of Asia-Pacific, China now views the promotion of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) as a key strategic priority. Moreover, the recent aggravation of China’s relations with its regional partners has only added a sense of urgency to economic integration.

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership is a proposed free trade agreement (FTA) between the 10 member states of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) - Brunei, Myanmar, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam - and the six partner states with which ASEAN has existing FTAs (Australia, China, India, Japan, South Korea and New Zealand).

Officially, ASEAN and the six dialogue partners announced the start of negotiations on RCEP in August 2012 in Cambodia during the 44th meeting of the ASEAN economic ministers. However, the initial stage of the formation of the multilateral economic initiative took place in the late 1990s.

The Asian financial crisis of 1997–1998 had a serious negative impact on the socio-economic development of most regional states. Under those conditions, ASEAN’s key task as coordinator of the integration initiatives in Asia-Pacific was finding the ways to minimize the effects of the financial crisis. The members of the Association were perfectly aware that it was impossible to achieve that goal without active support from the more developed regional countries - Japan, China and South Korea.

*The first step was the formation of East Asia Free Trade Area (EAFTA), which was propelled forward by China in 2001.* The launch of that project gained immediate support from ASEAN members such as Malaysia, which viewed the EAFTA as an effective mechanism for overcoming the economic recession and building up comprehensive cooperation with the countries of Northeast Asia.

China viewed the mechanism of ASEAN+3 as a “pivot” and key channel of cooperation in East Asia. [ASEAN+3 includes the 10 members of ASEAN, plus China, Japan and South Korea – Editor’s note] The gradual strengthening of Beijing’s positions in Asia-Pacific foreign policy nourished the Chinese leadership’s ambition to play a leading part in the newly established East Asia Summit (EAS). China attempted to mold the main directions and work principles of the new dialogue platform primarily according to its own interests. China’s lack of interest in gradual expansion of the EAS membership is also very indicative.

*Therefore, initially China viewed the RCEP as a tool to enhance its role in the economic and regional processes during a transition period for most Asia-Pacific nations.* Using the mechanism of the ASEAN+3 partnership, Beijing also hoped to implement specific foreign policy goals.

*RCEP as an alternative to the American world order
*
One of the key factors pushing China to intensify the process of formalizing the RCEP is the strengthening of U.S. positions in Asia-Pacific, a trend that started under President Barack Obama. The shifting focus of Washington’s foreign policy towards Asia-Pacific is seen both in terms of economic influence (strengthening of cooperation with the countries of Northeast Asia and Southeast Asia) and military-political cooperation (intensified dialogue with key allies — Japan, South Korea and the Philippines). In addition, the key feature of the U.S. “pivot to Asia” is the rise of anti-Chinese rhetoric.

The quintessence of this pivot can be easily seen in the establishment of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), the largest trade-economic initiative ever undertaken. Judging by the tone of the statements coming from the American establishment (including President Obama), TPP is in fact viewed as an instrument for deterring China. “We can’t let countries like China write the rules of the global economy,” Obama claimed.

The high degree of politicization of the TPP initiative and the comprehensive nature of the agreement, which assigns non-tariff regulation and other issues that are sensitive to China a top priority, almost excludes any chance of China joining the TPP. The most likely scenario in the short and medium term for Beijing is to further promote alternative initiatives and projects of economic regional integration, including the Silk Road Economic Belt and Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership.

*Chinese political leadership views the RCEP initiative as an attempt to prevent the formation of a U.S.-centric economic architecture in Asia-Pacific*

Therefore, the Chinese political leadership views the RCEP initiative as an attempt to prevent the formation of a U.S.-centric economic architecture in Asia-Pacific and to avoid creation of an regional anti-China alliance under U.S. auspices.

*RCEP as a part of China’s regional strategy
*
China, being a superpower, perceives building regional relations along with forming a “community of common destiny” (one of the backbones of China’s development and security concept, which aims at development on the basis of common interests and values — Editor’s note) as being strategically important. Moreover, the implementation of RCEP fits neatly into the concept of the peaceful rise of China, which implies its more active role in the integration processes as well as contribution to universal development and prosperity.

In order to understand RCEP’s place in China’s foreign policy strategy, it is important to look at the member states involved in its initiative. It includes countries that are the U.S.’s key allies in Asia-Pacific, including Japan and South Korea. However, the most destructive element in trilateral relations is the complex of political tensions that have a negative impact on the development of diplomatic and trade-economic relations between the sides, especially between Japan and China.

Over the period 2011-2015, trade turnover between Tokyo and Beijing declined from $345 billion to the current level of $279 billion. Rising tensions between China and Japan caused by the conflict over the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands started in 2012 when the negotiations on RCEP were launched for the first time.

The main stumbling block in the Japan-Korean dialogue concerns some questions of history, namely, the problem of sexual slavery in the Japanese army during World War II.

*The parties have *repeatedly declared* that they are trying not to mix political controversies and economic cooperation by de facto forming “relations of a new type.” Therefore, there is an urgent need for a “reset” in their relations and establishment of permanent communication channels, which enhances the importance of such platforms as the Trilateral Summit and partnership in the ASEAN+3 format.*

In such circumstances, promotion of RCEP is viewed by the leadership of the three countries as a universal means of strengthening their economic interdependence and raising their level of mutual trust. Besides, the “Asian three” have made official statements on the necessity of intensifying the negotiations on the establishment of RCEP, in particular, during the Trilateral Summit in Seoul on Nov. 1, 2015.

Therefore, China views RCEP as a mechanism to deepen the economic cooperation with the countries of Northeast Asia, which certainly serves the interests of each of the three countries.

*Finally, China aims to use the platform of the RCEP to eventually create the Free Trade Area of the Asia-Pacific (FTAAP), where Beijing will play one of the leading roles.* Specifically, China’s Premier of the State Council Li Keqiang declared this during the Boao Forum for Asia, which took place in 2014 on the island of Hainan.

Besides, China aims to promote RCEP for the purpose of easing the political tensions with its Southeast Asian partners that are directly involved in the territorial dispute in the South China Sea (Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei).

*According to Beijing’s official position, RCEP, unlike TPP, aims not to rewrite the existing rules of world trade but only to unify and harmonize the international standards on trade and economic relations*. Meanwhile, China makes no secret of the fact that by promoting such initiatives, it aims to acquire greater independence and flexibility in making international economic decisions.

*Implications for Russia
*
Taking into account the intensification of its foreign policy in the Asian-Pacific region and strengthening of its strategic partnership with China, *Russia is interested in the promotion of RCEP.* Moscow’s strategic task is to get integrated in the production, distribution and technological chains of Asia-Pacific and to create its own “success story” in the Far East, such as by forming a chain of high-tech clusters in the country’s Far East territories.

In particular, this area of work became a priority during the Russian chairmanship of APEC in 2012. RCEP, as an integration project, aims at building regional interdependencies through the development of trans-border infrastructure and strengthening of the institutional basis of multilateral economic cooperation.

*Acting within the framework of the Eurasian Economic Union, Russia has already signed a Free Trade Agreement with Vietnam. A similar agreement with *ASEAN *will mean the removal of a formal obstacle to Russia joining RCEP. *Moreover, China and ASEAN welcome Russia entering the Partnership. Such a position is motivated by the sides’ desire to move towards building a comprehensive Eurasian partnership, a consolidated geo-economic and geo-strategic space with Russia, China and ASEAN as key centers of power.

*Finally, the American factor plays an important role in forming a favorable attitude of the Russian elites to the economic initiative of Beijing. This is namely about the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which most observers view as the main alternative to RCEP. Russia opposes such unions as TPP.* According to Russian President Vladimir Putin, “The Trans-Pacific Partnership is another attempt by the U.S. to build an architecture of the regional economic cooperation that is advantageous to the U.S. itself.”

Moscow’s official position is based on the understanding that any regional economic structure is defective without participation of Russia and China. In this regard, Russia’s interest in promoting Chinese initiatives is driven by Moscow’s desire to harmonize the world’s financial, trade and economic architecture through enhancing the role of non-Western countries.

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## TaiShang

*Maritime Silk Road conference held in SE China*
By Guo Xiaohong, China.org.cn



​Minister Guo Yezhou of the International Department of the CPC Central Committee delivers a speech at the opening ceremony of the conference, Sept. 7, 2016. [Photo by Guo Xiaohong/China.org.cn]

They were in Xiamen, southeast China's Fujian Province, to attend the conference on building the China-initiated 21st Century Maritime Silk Road and advancing international industrial cooperation.

To promote MSR development, countries concerned should enhance efforts to optimize their trade structure, strengthen coordination and connectivity based on ocean economy, create innovative multi-level financing vehicles like the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), build land and maritime transportation networks and boost people-to-people exchange, urged Guo Yezhou, vice minister of the International Department of the CPC Central Committee and chairman of the council of China Center for Contemporary World Studies (CCCWS), at the conference.

As a country with advantages in the equipment manufacturing industry, China is willing to serve the needs of countries along the road and beef up related cooperation, said Guo.

Participants at the conference agreed that the "Belt and Road" initiative should not be a solo effort by China; Wei Jianguo, former Chinese vice minister of commerce, said the "Belt and Road" initiative welcomes involvement not only from countries along the road but also from other countries including trans-national groups, think tanks and finance organizations like the International Monetary Fund and the Asian Development Bank.

*In 2013, Chinese President Xi Jinping proposed building a close-knit China-ASEAN community and offered guidance on constructing a 21st Century Maritime Silk Road to promote maritime cooperation. It was designed to go from China's coast to Europe through the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean along one route, and from China's coast through the South China Sea to the South Pacific along another.*

In addition, the "Belt and Road" initiative is not just about "hard cooperation" like infrastructure; it also contains soft elements like culture and people-to-people contact, said Essam Sharaf, former prime minister of Egypt, at the meeting.

The "Belt and Road" initiative, a golden opportunity for all, will help to promote understanding and friendship among the people of the countries around this road through people to people, business to business and government to government cooperation in the areas of culture, education, science, technology and social welfare and sport, said Sharaf.

To move the MSR forward, Sharaf highlighted the need for improvement in maritime transportation through the Maritime Silk Road, the driving force of hidden potential economic capabilities.

On the sidelines of the conference, the Special Fund for the Activities of the "Belt and Road" was launched by the China Friendship Foundation for Peace and Development with an aim to beef up agricultural and industrial cooperation and boost exchanges for countries along the silk road.

The conference was jointly sponsored by the Belt and Road Think Tank Association, the China International Fair for Investment and Trade Organizing Committee and the Eco-Agriculture and Food Safety Forum for the Belt and Road. It was co-hosted by Fudan University and Huaqiao University and organized by the China Center for Contemporary World Studies and the Foreign Affairs Office of the Fujian Provincial Government.



​The Special Fund for the Activities of the "Belt and Road" is launched by the China Friendship Foundation for Peace and Development, on the sidelines of the maritime silk road conference, Sept. 7, 2016. [Photo by Guo Xiaohong/China.org.cn]

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## TaiShang

*How Russia and China Could Strike the US Air Force’s 'Achilles Heel'*

Dave Majumdar

_Russia is developing air-to-air missiles of such range they could threaten America's tanker and AWACS planes_

Originally appeared at *The National Interest*

A new generation of Russian and Chinese-built long-range air-to-air missiles could threaten the critical nodes that enable U.S. air operations. Those nodes include the AWACS, various intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) assets, aerial refueling tankers and electronic attack aircraft.

While often overlooked in favor of advanced anti-ship and surface-to-air missile systems when examining Russian and Chinese anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) capabilities, such long-range air intercept weapons—coupled with the right fighter—could cut the sinews that allow the United States to conduct sustained air operations in both the Asia-Pacific and the European theatres. Essentially, Russians and/or Chinese forces could pair long-range air-to-air missiles with aircraft like the Mikoyan MiG-31 Foxhound, Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA and the Chengdu J-20 to attack American AWACS, JTARS and aerial refueling tankers like the Boeing KC-135 or forthcoming KC-46 Pegasus. Especially over the vast reaches of the Pacific where airfields are few and far between, lumbering aerial refueling tankers could be an Achilles’ Heel that Beijing could chose to exploit. There are three long-range air-to-air missile programs that bear watching—the Russian Vympel R-37M RVV-BD, the Novator KS-172 (aka K-100) and the Chinese PL-15.

Russia’s new R-37M RVV-BD long-range air-to-air missile is already at the initial operational capability (IOC) stage onboard the Mikoyan MiG-31BM Foxhound. It will also eventually be integrated onboard the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E and the T-50 PAK-FA stealth fighter. The RVV-BD—also called the AA-13 Arrow by NATO—is claimed to have successfully intercepted targets at ranges greater than 160 nautical miles.

“The improved R-37M (RVV-BD, Izdelie 610M) missile is in serial production since 2014, and now, apparently, it is in an IOC stage in squadrons of MiG-31BM upgraded interceptors,” said researcher Mikhail Barabanov, editor-in-chief of the Moscow Defense Brief, which is published by the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) in Moscow. “The RVV-BD missile is also planned for use on the T-50 fighters.”

The original R-37 was originally developed by the Soviet Union to attack high-value NATO air assets such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS, E-8 JSTARS and RC-135V/W Rivet Joint. The idea was to use a high-speed fighter such as the MiG-31—which can sustain speeds of Mach 2.35 over a radius of 390 nautical mileswhile carrying a significant air-to-air payload—with the new missile to eliminate those NATO air assets. An aircraft like the MiG-31—or a stealthy supersonically cruising airframe such as the PAK-FA—is ideal for such a mission because they are difficult to intercept due to their sheer speed and altitude.

“The R-37 was a dedicated missile for wiping out ISR assets that was developed and tested in the 1990s,” said Mike Kofman, a research scientist specializing in Russian military affairs at CNA Corporation. “It was not meant for just the Mig-31. There is also a follow-on missile that's one of Novator's projects—the KS-172 or now often called K-100.”

After the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian defense industry continued work on the R-37 project but progress came slowly. The 1990s was an especially difficult time for the Russian defense industry as funding slowed to a trickle. Indeed, the original Soviet-era R-37 was cancelled before being restarted as the current RVV-BD variant. “The pure R-37 (Izdelie 610) missile terminated development in 1997,” Barabanov said.

The R-37M is likely to utilize a combination of inertial guidance with course corrections from the launch aircraft and active radar guidance for the terminal phase. During combat operations, aircraft like the MiG-31 would make a high-speed dash towards its target and launch a salvo of R-37Ms. The Foxhound would likely track the target with its enormous Zaslon-M phased array radar and feed data to the missile until the weapons’ own radar went active. It might also have a home-on-jam feature similar to the one found onboard the U.S.-made AIM-120D AMRAAM to counter airborne electronic attack aircraft such as the Boeing EA-18G Growler.

The Soviet Union was well aware that one of NATO and the United States Air Force’s primary advantages was their ability to run a coordinated air campaign using assets such as the AWACS. The Soviet Union explored a variety of methods to counter aircraft such as the AWACS—including passive-homing long-range air-to-air weapons. “As I understand, the theme of air-to-air missiles with passive radar homing was popular in the Soviet Union in the 1980s (see also R-27P), but is now recognized as unpromising,” Barabanov said.

While the RVV-BD is a fearsome weapon, Moscow might be developing an even more capable missile called the Novator KS-172—which is sometimes also called the K-100. While the RVV-BD is thought to have a maximum range of less than 200 nautical miles, the Novator-designed weapon might be able to engage targets as far away as 250 nautical miles. “200 plus nautical miles is too steep for the R-37M,” Kofman said. “It is only Novator that makes something for targets at those ranges. That would be something like the KS-172 that was designed to try and hit beyond 200 miles.”

However, it is unclear when or even if the KS-172/K-100 missile will ever complete development and enter production. There are indications that the K-100 is likely a long-dormant project that might never see the light of day. “With the K-100 they were looking for Indian money to finish development,” Kofman said. “Nice missile from Novator, but I doubt it will see operational status—no need for that kind of a long poke to fit on any fifth-gen aircraft.”

Indeed, Moscow-based Barabanov said that the K-100 has likely been terminated. “As for the K-100 missile, I have my doubts that this an active program,” Barabanov said. “I think that the work on it stopped a long time ago.”

Meanwhile, on the other side of the world, China is developing the ramjet-powered PL-15 that could have a range as great as 120 miles. The PL-15 weapon has caused consternation within the top-ranks of the U.S. Air Force with Air Combat Command commander Gen. Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle citing the Chinese weapon as one of the pressing reasons for the United States to develop a next-generation replacement for the decades-old AIM-120 AMRAAM.

“How do we counter that and what are we going to do to continue to meet that threat?” Carlisle asked during a speech at the Center for Strategic and International Studies last year. Later, during an interview with Flightglobal, Carlisle said that countering the new Chinese missile was an “exceedingly high priority” for the U.S. Air Force. “The PL-15 and the range of that missile, we’ve got to be able to out-stick that missile,” Carlisle said.

Indeed, the problem is not just that the PL-15 would out-range the AMRAAM, when coupled with the J-20, the Chinese could attack the tankers and ISR aircraft that would be the key enablers during any air campaign over the Pacific.A 2008 RAND briefing suggested that in order to sustain F-22 operations over Taiwan from Guam, the U.S. Air Force would need to launch three to four tanker sorties per hour to deliver 2.6 million gallons of fuel. That’s a fact that has not likely escaped Beijing’s notice.

While there is not much concrete data available about the J-20, the aircraft appears to have been optimized to high-speeds, long-range, stealth and a heavy internal payload. With a combination of reduced radar cross-section and high supersonic speed—armed with internally carried PL-15 missiles—it is possible that the J-20 could be used to threaten U.S. Air Force tankers and ISR assets in the Pacific theatre. As pointed out in the 2008 RAND study—Chinese derivatives of the Su-27 Flanker all but annihilated U.S. tanker, ISR, maritime patrol and command and control aircraft during a simulation using long-range air-to-air missiles.

The U.S. Air Force has looked at dispersed basing and developing robust logical trains to supply those austere airstrips to counter China's A2/AD capabilities in the Pacific theatre. However, the Air Force does not appear to have fully developed a plan to protect its tanker, ISR and command and control assets from enemy air attacks. The only answer the service has to the problem is that those aircraft will have to be pulled back to safety outside the effective range of the Chinese threat. However, that would also shorten the effective range of the Pentagon’s short-range tactical fighters—reducing their ability to strike deep inside Chinese territory.

Thus,* with the information available*, it is likely that Russian and Chinese deployment of long-range air-to-air missiles—and the fifth-generation fighters to carry those weapons—could pose a significant problem for the Pentagon. It’s a problem that certainly bears watching in the coming years.

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## Nan Yang

F22 needs to refuel 6 times each round trip !!! This does not sound like a good plan.

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## gambit

Nan Yang said:


> F22 needs to refuel 6 times each round trip !!! This does not sound like a good plan.


And we have no experience at all in air refueling. Absolutely not. This is something brand new to US.

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## Nan Yang

gambit said:


> And we have no experience at all in air refueling. Absolutely not. This is something brand new to US.


Thus the opening title...
*Achilles Heel*

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## gambit

Nan Yang said:


> Thus the opening title...
> *Achilles Heel*


The operative word here is 'could'. Not 'would'.

You can come up with any scenario and put 'could' into it and the Internet Chinese will enthusiastically eat it up. The word 'could' is often used by writers under deadline pressure to publish something.

Tell US...

Who in the world knows more about air refueling than US ?

China ? 

You think that we do not know how to coordinate air refueling to reduce 'time of vulnerability' ?

An air refueler is based on the civilian airliner. When the airliner was designed, the best fuel efficiency methods were built in. So what this mean is that the air refueler have the same built in fuel efficiency. Any interceptor that tries to remain airborne and laboriously hunt for the air refueler will most likely run out of fuel itself before it can find the target.

So yes, by all means put your faith in an Internet article that uses the word 'could'. After all, it is not your blood, but Chinese blood at risk, right ?


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## Place Of Space

Before it becomes Achilles, we won't talk about its heel.


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## Nan Yang

gambit said:


> The operative word here is 'could'. Not 'would'.
> 
> You can come up with any scenario and put 'could' into it and the Internet Chinese will enthusiastically eat it up. The word 'could' is often used by writers under deadline pressure to publish something.
> 
> Tell US...
> 
> Who in the world knows more about air refueling than US ?
> 
> China ?
> 
> You think that we do not know how to coordinate air refueling to reduce 'time of vulnerability' ?
> 
> An air refueler is based on the civilian airliner. When the airliner was designed, the best fuel efficiency methods were built in. So what this mean is that the air refueler have the same built in fuel efficiency. Any interceptor that tries to remain airborne and laboriously hunt for the air refueler will most likely run out of fuel itself before it can find the target.
> 
> So yes, by all means put your faith in an Internet article that uses the word 'could'. After all, it is not your blood, but Chinese blood at risk, right ?


Not just this article, which also corroborate with study after study and stimulation by the Rank Corporation think tank which has close ties with US airforce.

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## TaiShang

*1st China-Europe CR Express cargo train to arrive in Europe*
*September 09, 2016*







Photo taken on Sept. 8, 2016 shows a CR Express cargo train leaving for Antwerp, Belgium, at Shuangzhai Railway Logistics Center in Xining, northwest China's Qinghai Province.* The first China-Europe CR Express cargo train from Tibet Plateau, carrying featured products like wolfberry fruit and Tibetan carpets, will arrive its destination in Europe after 12-day travel. *(Xinhua/Wu Gang)

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## TaiShang

Just wanted to save the link shared by @onebyone for further reference.

These concentrated threads are good for academic purpose 

Thank you @ahojunk for initiating this very innovative trend.

https://defence.pk/threads/chinas-new-silk-road-picks-up-where-hillary-clintons-flopped.448642/

***

Although I disagree with the idea that the OBOR equals to highly-opportunistic Marshall Plan, and also much broader than it in every aspect, I am still OK if it is understood that this is Marshall Plan in Chinese characteristics.


“*Three Nos*”

No interference in the internal affairs of other nations
Does not seek to increase the so called “sphere of influence”
Does not strive for hegemony or dominance


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## ahojunk

‘Real New Silk Road’ to turn Afghanistan into major regional transit hub
By Khaama Press - Sat Sep 10 2016, 1:30 pm






Optimisms are on the rise with the opening of the New Silk Road connecting China with the Eurasian landmass as two trains carrying dozens of containers bound for Afghanistan left China with the first consignment arriving in Hairatan port of Afghanistan earlier this month.

The initiative by China is considered is a major turnover in Afghanistan’s efforts to turn the country into a regional transit as it has been dubbed as Real New Silk Road following attempts by the then US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to start the operations of the road in 2011 but subsequently flopped before it even got started.

According to an article published in Forbes by the magazine’s contributor Wade Sheppard, China is making good on this ambition by integrating Afghanistan in with their Belt and Road initiative — a major part of what could be called the real New Silk Road.

At least 85 containers were transported in the first Afghanistan-bound train that ceremoniously departed from Nantong in China’s eastern Jiangsu province on 25th August.

The side of the train was draped with a banner that read “Congratulations on the Central Asian trains (Nantong – Afghanistan – Hairaton) launching” and on the front was a similar sign topped off with a bright red pom-pom.

The second train bound for Afghanistan is expected to arrive today after covering 7,500 kilometer of journey from eastern Chinese city of Yiwu to Mazar-e-Sharif city of Afghanistan, carrying over 100 containers worth of $4 million cargo.

The latest developments came as the Afghan government has been attempting to turn the country into a major regional transit hub by taking advantage of the geographical position of the country.

President Mohammad Ashraf Ghani during his speech at a gathering in Kabul said Afghanistan will continue to emerge as a key player to link the region, insisting that the country will no more remain dependent on a single port, gesturing towards the Pakistani ports on which the Afghan traders have long been counting on.


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## TaiShang

China, Russia navies to hold navy drill in South China Sea

(Xinhua) 14:16, September 11, 2016

BEIJING, Sept. 11 -- China and Russia will stage an eight-day Navy drill in the South China Sea off southern China's Guangdong Province starting Monday, a Chinese Navy spokesperson said Sunday.

The drill, "Joint Sea-2016," will feature Navy surface ships, submarines, fixed-wing aircraft, ship-borne helicopters marine corps and amphibious armored equipment from both navies, according to spokesperson Liang Yang. Most of the Chinese participants will come from the Nanhai Fleet under the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

Together, Chinese and Russian participants will undertake defense, rescue, and anti-submarine operations, *in addition to joint-island seizing missions and other activities, Liang said.*

The marine corps, in particular, will carry out live-fire drills, sea crossing and island landing operations, and island defense and offense exercises among others, he said.

Liang said the drill, from Sept. 12-19, is part of an annual program, *which aims to consolidate and advance the Sino-Russian comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination, and deepen friendly and practical cooperation between the two militaries.*

It will also improve coordination between the two navies on joint defense operations at sea, he said.

Earlier reports in July quoted a Chinese Defense Ministry spokesperson as saying that the drill "does not target any third party."

The annual China-Russia joint naval exercise is the fifth of its kind between the two countries since 2012. The drills were held in 2012 in the Yellow Sea; off the coast of Russia's Far East in 2013; and in the East China Sea in 2014.

In 2015, the drill was conducted in two phases: in the Mediterranean in May and then in the Peter the Great Gulf, the waters off the Clerk Cape, and the Sea of Japan in late August.

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## Shotgunner51

Thread locked for checking.

Edit: Thread cleaned now re-open, different on-topic opinions are welcome as usual. No more off-topic posts, this is pre-warning. Thanks.

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## TaiShang

*Navy drill highlights strong ties*
China Daily, September 12, 2016

China and Russia will start an eight-day joint naval exercise from Monday, which for the first time will take place in the South China Sea, according to a Chinese navy spokesman.

The drill, "Joint Sea-2016", will feature* naval surface ships, submarines, fixed-wing aircraft, ship-borne helicopters marine corps and amphibious armored equipment* from both navies, spokesman Liang Yang said on Sunday.

The naval exercise will be held in the eastern waters of Zhanjiang, the southernmost city of Guangdong province, where the Nanhai Fleet under the People's Liberation Army Navy is headquartered.

Most of the Chinese participants will come from the Nanhai Fleet. The exercise will be commanded by Rear Admiral Yu Manjiang, vice-commander of the Nanhai Fleet.

The annual China-Russia joint naval exercise is the fifth between the two sides since 2012.

Chinese and Russian naval forces will undertake* defense, rescue, and anti-submarine operations, in addition to joint-island seizing missions and other activities*, said Liang, the navy spokesman.

Liang said the drill, from Sept 12-19, is part of an annual program, which aims to consolidate and advance the Sino-Russian comprehensive strategic partnership, and deepen friendly and practical cooperation between the two militaries.

Yang Yujun, spokesman of Chinese Defense Ministry, said in July that the drill "does not target any third party".

Vladimir Matveyev, the chief press officer of Eastern Military District for the Pacific Fleet of Russia, told TASS news agency late last month that *the Russian anti-submarine ships Admiral Tributs and Admiral Vinogradov, the amphibious ship Peresvet, the towboat Alatau, and the tanker Pechenga will take part in the drill.*

Yin Zhuo, director of the PLA Navy's Expert Consultation Committee, said that dispatching large anti-submarine ships shows that the Russian navy attaches great importance to the joint exercise with China.

**

Russia is China's most significant strategic partner in defense and (especially energy-related) economic compatibility.

The drill has been one of the strongest signs of Russia's stance toward the SCS dispute.

It is obvious that, the US-led minor country coalition has a formidable China-Russia coalition to deal with.

This is to make sure that nobody on the other end of the Pacific will act like trigger happy zealots.

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## TaiShang

I suspect that the following development is in part related to the OBOR as well as the government's consolidation efforts.

***

*Steel companies swing back to profit*
Xinhua, September 11, 2016

China's steel industry improved its profitability in the first seven months, due to rising steel prices, an industry insider said Saturday.

*Although sales revenues of 373 steel companies fell 11.91 percent to 1.5 trillion yuan (225 billion U.S. dollars) during the period, their profits hit 16.3 billion yuan, Zhao Pei, secretary general of the Chinese Society for Metals, said at a forum.*

However, market demand remained tepid, with steel consumption falling 3.6 percent year on year in July, Zhao said.

The old growth model of the steel industry cannot continue because of the slowing economy and lingering overcapacity, he said, while calling for the sector's transformation and upgrading.

As of July, China had achieved 47 percent of its target to cut steel capacity by 45 million tonnes this year.

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## Daniel808

*Russia Supports China’s Stance on South China Sea *

WORLD 17:30 05.09.2016(updated 17:52 05.09.2016)

Russian President Vladimir Putin said that Moscow supports China’s stance on the South China Sea court dispute and opposes any third-party interference.

HANGZHOU (Sputnik) – Russia supports China’s stance on the South China Sea court dispute and opposes any third-party interference, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday.

"Chairman Xi Jinping and I have developed very trusting, I would say friendly, relations. But he never – I want to emphasize this – never approached me requesting to somehow comment, somehow intervene in the matter," Putin told reporters.

"We of course have our own opinion on this matter. It is that, first of all, we do not interfere and we believe that any intervention of a non-regional power goes only to the detriment of settling these issues. The intervention of third-party non-regional powers, in my opinion, is harmful and counterproductive," he added.

On July 12, the Hague-based Permanent Court of Arbitration ruled that Beijing has no legal basis to claim historic rights to South China Sea resources and has violated the sovereign rights of the Philippines in the country's exclusive economic zone.

The ruling came after Manila filed a case in January 2013 accusing Beijing of violating the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

*"We stand in solidarity and support of China's position on this issue – not to recognize the decision of this court… This is not a political position, but purely legal. It lies in the fact that any arbitration proceedings should be initiated by the disputing parties, while the arbitration court should hear the arguments and positions of the disputing parties. As you know, China did not address the Hague arbitration and no one listened to its position there. How can you recognize these decisions as fair? We support China's position on this issue," Putin stressed.*

Beijing’s territorial claims to the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea, which are believed to be rich in oil and gas reserves, run counter to those of the Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei and Vietnam.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160905/1044988523/russia-china-putin.html

Imagine this brother @TaiShang @Shotgunner51 @Beast @Jlaw @jkroo

China's Nanhai Fleet and Russian Fleet Sailing together and Protecting each other in South China Sea 

*China's Nanhai Fleet





Russian Fleet





*

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## Chinese-Dragon

Damn that will be an awesome sight for sure.

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## TaiShang

Daniel808 said:


> *"We stand in solidarity and support of China's position on this issue – not to recognize the decision of this court… This is not a political position, but purely legal. It lies in the fact that any arbitration proceedings should be initiated by the disputing parties, while the arbitration court should hear the arguments and positions of the disputing parties. As you know, China did not address the Hague arbitration and no one listened to its position there. How can you recognize these decisions as fair? We support China's position on this issue," Putin stressed.*



Very strong position and must have hurt those little countries that believe they can micro-bully China by pitting one great power against the other.

US can be utilized this way,

Russia cannot be utilized.

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## dy1022



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## cochine

Daniel808 said:


> "We stand in solidarity and support of China's position on this issue – not to recognize the decision of this court… This is not a political position, but purely legal. It lies in the fact that any arbitration proceedings should be initiated by the disputing parties, while the arbitration court should hear the arguments and positions of the disputing parties. As you know, China did not address the Hague arbitration and no one listened to its position there. How can you recognize these decisions as fair? We support China's position on this issue," Putin stressed.



China had refuted to join in arbitration in Hagge, because China has known well before that China will been a loser. China doesn't have evidences to approve "China nine dashed" claim in SCS, historically.


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## hoangsa74

The russian just slap the viet in the face. Too bad the viet r still delusional n think russia is their best buddy

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## cochine

hoangsa74 said:


> The russian just slap the viet in the face. Too bad the viet r still delusional n think russia is their best buddy



What is wrong with you ?

The drill is in China EZZ in Quangdong Province, not in East Vietnam sea. Its permitted by international laws. Russia is important counterpart to weapon supply of Vietnam only, nothing more.

We can do , same same navy exercise with Japan navy or with USA navy in East Vietnam Sea too.


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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> China had refuted to join in arbitration in Hagge, because China has known well before that China will been a loser. China doesn't have evidences to approve "China nine dashed" claim in SCS, historically.



Let Mr. President, China's most strategic ally, refute you.



Daniel808 said:


> *"We stand in solidarity and support of China's position on this issue – not to recognize the decision of this court… This is not a political position, but purely legal. It lies in the fact that any arbitration proceedings should be initiated by the disputing parties, while the arbitration court should hear the arguments and positions of the disputing parties. As you know, China did not address the Hague arbitration and no one listened to its position there. How can you recognize these decisions as fair? We support China's position on this issue," Putin stressed.*



***

And the show is set to begin!

***

*China, Russia ready for joint navy drill in South China Sea*
Xinhua, September 12, 2016

​


Officers and soldiers of Chinese Navy hold a welcome ceremony as a Russian fleet arrive at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua] 

The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between Sept. 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong.

Wang Hai, Chinese chief director of the exercise and deputy commander of the Chinese Navy, said that this year marks the 20th anniversary of the two sides establishing strategic cooperation.

The two sides have conducted six joint navy drills in five years, and the drill will enhance the abilities of both sides to counter common security threats, said Wang at the welcoming ceremony.

*Chinese Navy spokesperson Liang Yang said the drill will feature the highest level of standardization, combat and digitalization in recent China-Russia drills.*

Participants will undertake joint air defense, anti-submarine operations, landing,* island-seizing*, search and rescue, and weapon use.

The Russian Navy will bring three surface ships, two supply ships, two helicopters, 96 marines, as well as amphibious armored equipment.

Most of the Chinese forces come from the Nanhai Fleet under the People's Liberation Army Navy, with some from the Beihai Fleet and Donghai Fleet.

A total of 10 ships from the Chinese Navy, including destroyers, frigates, landing ships, supply ships and submarines, will take part in the drill, as well as 11 fixed-wing aircraft, eight helicopters and 160 marines, and amphibious armored equipment.

According to a Chinese Defense Ministry spokesperson in July, the drill will not target a third party.

Liang said the joint navy drill will feature in-depth coordination between the navies of the two countries.

The drill will make use of a China-Russia joint command information system for the first time, Liang said, adding that the system is capable of sending, receiving and sharing information among all command posts and combat units at all levels.p The paperwork and command processes during the drill will be standardized and optimized to make organizational work more effective, the spokesperson said.

Liang said the "deep coordination at a high level" between the two countries' navies will further deepen practical cooperation, promote friendship and enhance mutual trust between the two navies.

​

A Russian navy ship arrives at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. [Photo/Xinhua]

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## cochine

TaiShang said:


> Let Mr. President, China's most strategic ally, refute you.



Former China's ally in cold war is USA, and Mr. Presedent said that:

*"In an interview with Singapore’s Strait Times on the Philippines’ lawsuit against China, Obama said the tribunal’s ruling delivered a clear and legally binding decision on maritime claims in the East Sea as they relate to China and the Philippines, and that ruling should be respected.* "

http://vovworld.vn/en-US/News/The-S...esident-Barack-Obama-on-PCA-ruling/458287.vov


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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> Former China's ally in cold war is USA, and Mr. Presedent said that:
> 
> *"In an interview with Singapore’s Strait Times on the Philippines’ lawsuit against China, Obama said the tribunal’s ruling delivered a clear and legally binding decision on maritime claims in the East Sea as they relate to China and the Philippines, and that ruling should be respected.* "
> 
> http://vovworld.vn/en-US/News/The-S...esident-Barack-Obama-on-PCA-ruling/458287.vov



Mr. Dutere gave Mr. Obama his due.

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## cirr

Daniel808 said:


> *China's Nanhai Fleet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian Fleet
> View attachment 333635
> 
> *



Both DDG 168 and DDG 169 will be given a major facelift to have VLS installed in a few years.

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## Beast

cirr said:


> Both DDG 168 and DDG 169 will be given a major facelift to have VLS installed in a few years.


Has 167DDG rejoined the fleet?


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## Viet

kecho said:


> What is wrong with you ?
> 
> The drill is in China EZZ in Quangdong Province, not in East Vietnam sea. Its permitted by international laws. Russia is important counterpart to weapon supply of Vietnam only, nothing more.
> 
> We can do , same same navy exercise with Japan navy or with USA navy in East Vietnam Sea too.


Ah bro let them. Let the Chinese stage exercise after exercise If they think can promote the peaceful rise image of China. People outside China think of a different image of them: the image of a hooligan. A man loving his muscles thinking highly of himself believes can intimidate other people.

But hey there is a saying in Germany:

Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt es sich ganz ungeniert.

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## Beast

Viet said:


> Ah bro let them. Let the Chinese stage exercise after exercise If they think can promote the peaceful rise image of China. People outside China think of a different image of them: the image of a hooligan.
> 
> But hey there is a saying in Germany:
> 
> Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt es sich ganz ungeniert.


Be careful up of this south vietnam regime leftover staying in the west. They are bound out to destroy VPC and vietnam. They are interest is never for the good of whole vietnam but themselves.

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## Viet

Beast said:


> Be careful up of this south vietnam regime leftover staying in the west. They are bound out to destroy VPC and vietnam. They are interest is never for the good of whole vietnam


Don't be too much delusional. The leftovers as you say it are getting old and retired. Their children are busy to make money, raising kids and where to buy the second or third house.


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## cochine

Beast said:


> US? They shall led by example. Double standard just show how shallow American are. And vietnam, now your ally isn't USA? China used to be your ally too. Why didn't you bother to mention that when U dig up decades of old news?
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States



China stolen Paracel Islands of Vietnam in cold war 1974 after normalisation diplomacy with USA 1972, and stolen with force our Reefs in Spratly in Sino Vietnam war 1988.

in reality China was not our ally, China is untrusted partner.

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## GeHAC

kecho said:


> China stolen Paracel Islands of Vietnam in cold war 1974 after normalisation diplomacy with USA 1972, and stolen with force our Reefs in Spratly in Sino Vietnam war 1988.
> 
> in reality China was not our ally, China is untrusted partner.


When China get back the island and reefs in WW2 from japan,you were still a colony

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## cochine

GeHAC said:


> When China get back the island and reefs in WW2 from japan,you were still a colony



What you said is just propaganda of China.

In the past there was Cochin sea is recognized by Chinese from Ming Dynasty China's. Paracel and Spratly is under official administration of Nguyen Dynasty from 1670s in the past. 

Japan occupation in WW II is illegal.


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## TaiShang

*Russian fleet arrives in China for joint drill*
Xinhua, September 13, 2016




Officers and soldiers of Chinese Navy hold a welcome ceremony as a Russian fleet arrive at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





A Russian navy ship arrives at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





A Russian navy ship arrives at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





A Russian navy ship arrives at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





A Russian navy ship arrives at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





A band of Chinese Navy perform at a welcome ceremony as a Russian fleet arrive at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





A band of Chinese Navy perform at a welcome ceremony as a Russian fleet arrive at a port in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 12, 2016. A Russian fleet arrived in Zhanjiang on Monday, with Chinese naval forces gathering for a joint drill. The "Joint Sea 2016" drill will go ahead between September 12 and 19 in the South China Sea, off Guangdong. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)

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## Gibbs

*Sri Lanka becomes first South Asian participant at powerful Sino-ASEAN expo*


15 Chinese and ASEAN leaders at Nanning’s CAEXPO 13 
Sri Lanka honoured, pleased about China’s interest in Sri Lanka: Rishad
Says pleased of China’s interest in Sri Lanka
ASEAN bloc is future destiny of China
2015 China-SL trade tops $ 4 b
Sri Lanka received a rare honour on 11 September of being the third economy ever in the world and the first South Asian economy to join the dominant China-ASEAN bloc’s high profile annual trade and investment event in Nanning, the modern capital of Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, China.

“Under the One Belt, One Road framework, China’s ‘Go Global Strategy’ emphasised a greater importance to enhance trade, investment and economic cooperation with Sri Lanka,” said Minister of Industry and Commerce Rishad Bathiudeen, addressing the launch event of CAEXPO 13 at the Osmanthus Hall of Nanning International Convention & Exhibition Centre in Nanning.

Sri Lanka was among the 15 Chinese and ASEAN high profile leaders joining the CAEXPO 13. The opening session widely featured aspects of China-ASEAN FTA, China’s 21st Century Maritime Silk Road plans, as well as aspects of ‘China-ASEAN Advanced Technology Cooperation’ including Beidou satellite navigation, aerospace technology, high-speed modern railway, and unmanned auto manufacturing.

*




Head of Mission of Consulate General of Sri Lanka in Guangzhou, Consul General Shanika Dissanayake joins Minister Rishard Bathiudeen at the Nanning opening session*


More importantly the large scale multi-country CAEXPO event also gave a glimpse of the future destiny and an eye-opener as to what lies ahead for the China-ASEAN bloc.

Launching China’s ASEAN connectivity initiative, leaders of China and 10 ASEAN countries also signed their names on the tickets for high-speed trains running between China and ASEAN, which is the proposed China-ASEAN direct connectivity strategy. Representing China, the event was attended by Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli.

According to CAEXPO Secretariat, ‘CAEXPO Special Guest Country’ mechanism invites a country outside of the China-ASEAN region to join the CAEXPO as a Guest and is considered to be a strategic way for China to open to the (rest of) the globe.

*So far only Australia and South Korea had been invited by China as CAEXPO Special Guest Countries and with its 11 September presence at the CAEXPO grand opening, Sri Lanka become the third country ever in the world and the first South Asian nation to be a CAEXPO Special Guest Country.*

“Sri Lanka is honoured to join CAEXPO as a Special Guest Country and I thank the people of China for this invitation,” said Bathiudeen. “We welcome this initiative and we are here to invite Chinese business enterprises to explore more opportunities of economic cooperation and trade development in Sri Lanka. I believe that this Forum could play a pivotal role in strengthening existing relations between China and Sri Lanka.

“The ‘Social Market Economic Model’ as envisioned by the new Unity Government of Sri Lanka will propel and nuance the dynamics of Sri Lanka’s next stage of the economic development trajectory. These initiatives and consistency in our economic and trade liberalisation policies have brought Sri Lanka much closer with the global partners and in particular with China as a key development partner. Sri Lanka is placed at 68th rank in the Global Competitiveness Index 2015-2016 and the Sri Lankan Government has ambitious plans, to improve and advance this position it further.”

He noted that Sri Lanka’s strategic location as a connecting point of sea and air transport between east and west had been complimentary to the expansion in the trade with the world, pointing out that the Free Trade Agreements that Sri Lanka entered into with India and Pakistan have already become the key gateway platform for manufacturers and investors in Sri Lanka in accessing a sub-regional market with over 1.6 billion people.

“I invite Chinese and ASEAN investors to explore the opportunities presented by these key agreements, particularly into the diverse basket of value-added exports for which Sri Lanka obtains duty-free market access in the South Asia region. Sri Lanka’s strategic location, skilled labour force, business infrastructure, common law based legal system, highly-modernised sea port operations, recreational facilities and living standards have provided many opportunities for foreign investments. Sri Lanka is progressing towards becoming Asia’s hub for businesses, naval operations, commercial activities, knowledge based industries, aviation and energy developments. I am pleased that China continues to show interest in Sri Lanka as a dynamic and exciting investment destination, and would like to encourage further partnerships in this direction.”

Bathiudeen met Senior Official of Guangzhou Autonomous Province Liu Xin Wen on the sidelines. He was welcomed by awaiting Lankan exhibitors at Nanning Convention Centre for his soft-launch of CAEXPO Sri Lanka Pavilion and exports portfolio and he was interviewed by the Guanxi TV channel. He also addressed the afternoon Sri Lanka Investment Promotion Seminar organised by the Department of Commerce for keen Chinese investors.

The Sri Lankan official in China facilitating Bathiudeen’s delegation to CAEXPO13, Consul General Shanika Dissanayake (Head of Mission of Consulate General of Sri Lanka in Guangzhou who clinched the Special Guest Country status for Sri Lanka) and Bathiudeen’s Senior Advisor Himali Jinadasa also joined him at the Nanning opening session where Fortune 500 companies such as China Railway Engineering Corporation, China Railway Construction Corporation and Aluminium Corporation of China also were present.

Total bilateral trade between China and Sri Lanka topped $ 4 billion in 2015, with a steady growth of 14% from 2014’s $ 3.5 billion.

- See more at: http://www.ft.lk/article/567457/Sri...powerful-Sino-ASEAN-expo#sthash.s8jp5Q5W.dpuf

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## jkroo

Big boys are playing together and the drills last 8 days. Hope they can provide us a series of awesome photos. @Daniel808 

The drills include anti sub stimulation that is the signal for strong bilateral trust in the cooperation. And the forces attended could even destroy some little countries. But drill is drill. Let's watch and just ignore some little friends' noise please.

One thing is very interesting that the painting work of both navies are stylish. A stable stimulus to SCS and also a big feast for military fans.

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## Daniel808

Nice Pictures, bro @TaiShang Thanks.

I cannot wait to see Photos of China-Russia Navy drill in South China Sea @jkroo
That would be awesome !

I think the most Important thing in this drill is *"Combined Amphibious Landing Operation in Islands"*
That's mean Chinese and Russian Amphibious Troops is ready to Cooperate between each other to retake all Chinese Islands in South China Sea sometime in the Future against those *Pirates*

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## ahojunk

I have deleted an offensive and racist post and issued a warning to the member concerned.

I am disgusted at this sort of behaviour.

Members have a right to express their opinion, but debate properly without insulting or racist remarks.

I allow freedom of speech if it is factual and the language is appropriate.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia start joint navy drill in South China Sea*
September 14, 2016
Xinhua




Marines take part in a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russiastarted "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Seaon Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Chinese and Russian marines pose for photos during a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Wang Hai, Chinese chief director of the exercise and deputy commander of the Chinese Navy, and his Russian counterpart Alexander Fedotenkov issue orders as a joint naval drill starts in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Wang Hai (R), Chinese chief director of the exercise and deputy commander of the Chinese Navy, and his Russian counterpart Alexander Fedotenkov declare the start of a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Chinese and Russian marines take part in a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Marines take part in a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Wang Hai, Chinese chief director of the exercise and deputy commander of the Chinese Navy, and his Russian counterpart Alexander Fedotenkov declare the start of a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)

@vostok , @BRICSFTW

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## TaiShang

Continued from above. Images: Xinhua




Marines take part in a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)




Marines take part in a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese and Russian navy officers participate a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 13, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)

@Daniel808

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## F-22Raptor

Call it gunboat diplomacy from 35,000 feet.

Three times in the last two months, the United States has flown B-1 bombers, equipped with the latest non-nuclear cruise missiles, on missions in Europe and Asia meant to show adversaries as well as allies what one U.S. commander called "an unshakable commitment."

The flights are part of strategic missions aimed at sending explicit messages to Russia, China and North Korea. Each of the B-1's is equipped with two dozen non-nuclear cruise missiles with highly accurate, bunker-busting warheads, a new capability.

"Deployment follows capability," said Hans M. Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists, who tracks the missions. He explained that with the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM), a cruise missile, the U.S. believes it has an intimidating, even if non-nuclear, capability.

The latest mission took place Monday night Eastern Time over the Korean peninsula, when two B-1 bombers flew within a few miles of the DMZ between North and South Korea, accompanied by U.S. F-16's and South Korean F-15's. Earlier in the mission, which was flown out of Andersen Air Force Base in Guam, the B-1's were escorted by Japanese F-15's.

The U.S. left no doubt that the flyover was related to North Korea's latest nuclear weapons test, which took place four days ago.

"North Korea's nuclear test is a dangerous escalation and poses an unacceptable threat," Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, U.S. Forces Korea commander, said in a statement Tuesday. "The United States has an unshakable commitment to defend allies in the region and will take necessary steps to do so, including operations like this one today."

And to ensure that no one missed the point, the Defense Department released both still images and video of the mission.

The mission was one of three in recent weeks intended by the U.S. to act as deterrence, but which its adversaries claim are provocations.

On Tuesday, a B-1 bomber from Dyess Air Force Base in Texas landed at Ostrava Air Force Base in the Czech Republic, part of the deployment of a non-nuclear bomber strike group to Europe for exercise Ample Strike, according to official Pentagon reports. The B-1 joined a B-52 that flew to Ostrava two weeks ago.

Kristensen said that while the U.S. had deployed a B-1 to the Czech Republic "on a good will mission" in the past, this is different. "It's part of a strike package of bombers deployed as part of a NATO exercise," he said, and as such is more likely to attract Russian attention.


Kristensen also noted that last month, as part of the same NATO exercise, a B-52 was deployed to neighboring Slovakia, also a first as part of an exercise.

Earlier this summer, a B-1 and a B-2 stealth bomber were deployed to Andersen AFB in Guam, from which the Air Force's venerable B-52 still flies. It marked the first time all three U.S. strategic bombers have been deployed to Asia simultaneously. The Pentagon again left little to the imagination, calling the deployment "Continuous Bomber Presence."

Then, on August 17, again working with regional allies, the U.S. flew all three bomber types on a mission over the disputed South China Sea, where the People's Republic of China is trying to assert dominance over islands and sea lanes that U.S. allies like Japan and Philippines also claim.

On Tuesday, the response from North Korea to Monday's exercise came in a statement from KCNA, the North's official news agency.

"Any sanction, provocation and pressure cannot ruin our status as a nuclear state and evil political and military provocations will only result in a flood of reckless nuclear attacks that will bring a final destruction," KCNA said.

Meanwhile, U.S. military officials tell NBC News that flights by Chinese bombers on Monday were meant as a counter to last month's U.S. bomber overflights of the South China Sea.

According to a Defense Ministry statement on one of its blogs, on Monday China carried out an exercise in the Bashi Channel, between the Philippines' northernmost island of Luzon and Taiwan. Both countries dispute China's claims in the South China Sea.

"Bombers, fighters, and early warning and aerial refueling aircraft" flew through the channel on Monday, Reuters reported, based on the blog statement. "This move is to raise the air force's abilities via training, to meet the needs to maintaining national sovereignty, protecting national security and guaranteeing peaceful development."

In fact, according to a senior Air Force official, this might be the first time in history when the United States, China and Russia are all employing long-range bombers in conventional warfare tasks and deterrence missions.

Russia has repeatedly bombed targets in Syria using long-range bombers, its first combat experience since the war in Chechnya. China has been flying regular patrols in the South China Sea as part of its demonstration of greater military muscle.

All of these aircraft are potentially capable of carrying nuclear weapons, the official said, but this is "conventional deterrence and signaling." Long-range assets — bombers and missiles — are now on par with nuclear and cyber weapons as elements of the new strategic triad.

Kristensen says much of the U.S. strategy is driven by its recent deployment of the extended-range JASSM missile. Each B-1 can carry up to 24 for them, each with a 1,000-pound penetrating warhead. It reportedly can hit a target 600 miles away with an accuracy of eight feet.

"It's a significant but little noticed shift," he said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-bombers-send-china-russia-north-korea-message-n647616

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## TaiShang

US militarist jingoism is now taken as a sign of weakness, not strength.

A country that fails to implement a mere three-country Silk Road Initiative is not to be taken seriously.

Besides, according to Trump, half of the US generals are rubbish.

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## TaiShang

*China's Upping the Ante in the South China Sea *

Pepe Escobar





Originally appeared at *Sputnik 
*
The Joint Sea-2016 started this Monday; that’s the fifth annual China-Russia naval drill, featuring stalwarts from both navies in action at the eastern waters of Zhanjiang, in Guangdong province, the HQ of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy Nanhai Fleet.

Considering this is the first time that the Joint Sea is happening in the South China Sea, apocalyptic alarms from the usual suspects could not be more predictable – and thoroughly dismissed by the Beijing leadership.

*The Joint Sea-2016 intervenes just after a quite significant holding hand moment last week in Laos. Hand holders were no less than China’s premier Li Keqiang and Filipino President Rodrigo Duterte, a.k.a.* The Punisher, clad for a change in full suit and tie regalia.

There were good reasons for such camaraderie. *After all China and ASEAN had just agreed that the framework for a legally binding code of conduct in the South China Sea will be in effect before the end of the year.* Singapore lobbied “vigorously” for this key development. *Beijing regards Singapore as “a key partner for cooperation in the region”, as Li told Xinhua.* The Punisher’s own press secretary, Martin Andanar, squared the circle; “Our president also expressed his approval of having a framework for a code of conduct.” The setting — Laos — could not be more strategically appropriate for China. For three years now China is Laos’s biggest investor – mostly in energy and mining, including the construction of the $868 million Nam Ngiep 1 hydropower project. Key planned projects include the $1.6 billion Luang Marsh Special Economic Zone (SEZ) near Vientiane, and — what else – a 472 km railway between Kunming in Yunnan province and Vientiane, with an extension to Thailand, to be completed by 2021. That will be part of the Southeast Asian branch of the New Silk Roads.

*Bombing Laos with rhetoric*

Laos was the setting for the first face to face meeting between a top Chinese leader – Prime Minister Li Keqiang — and the 10 heads of state from ASEAN, right before the East Asia summit – the annual gathering of the ASEAN 10 plus China, South Korea, Japan, India, Australia, New Zealand, US and Russia.

At the East Asia summit, US President Barack Obama*, in his last* *– quite melancholic –* visit to Asia, *to where his administration allegedly pivoted*, declared that The Hague’s ruling invalidating China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea is binding. *That was not only false – but piled up on a Nobel Prize with a license to kill (list) visiting Laos decades after the nation was bombed to smithereens by the “indispensable nation” now saying with a straight face that everything’s gonna be alright.* *Asians, to say the least, were not impressed.* The reason for Obama’s visit was to actually sell the pivot once again to Asia in tandem with its “NATO on trade” arm – the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP). Obama insisted that, "TPP is a core pillar of America's rebalance to the Asia-Pacific. And the trade and the growth it supports will reinforce America's security alliances and regional partnerships." *He added, "failure to move ahead with TPP will not just have economic consequences, but call into question America's leadership in this vital region."* Beijing for its part privileged diplomacy over empty rhetoric when dealing with an in-flux ASEAN, crisscrossed by a stark diversity among its 10 member nations. Indonesia and Thailand, for instance, used to be bridge-builders, but now Jakarta is concentrated inward and Bangkok’s policies are in transition.

*The White House was counting on Manila to press its – confrontation – case, as Manila is supposed to be a key cog in the pivot machine.* Yet even when talking to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, Duterte emphasized South China Sea problems should be resolved through peaceful means, and Manila would maintain dialogue with Beijing.

And then, to “celebrate” this pan-Asia meeting – and simultaneously the 68th anniversary of the founding of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) — *Pyongyang inflicted a dose of realism on all and sundry by conducting a fifth nuclear test.* *Exit TPP, enter high-speed rail China, meanwhile, keeps accumulating “facts on the sea” – with a lot of action, in the form of sea patrolling, originating from Sansha, a prefecture-level city set up in 2012 to administer the Spratly Islands, Paracel Islands and Macclesfield Bank (which the Chinese call Zongsha Islands).* These “facts on the sea” are irreversible, as Sansha has made sure islands, atolls, reefs, rocks, shoals – whatever the terminology – all across the South China Sea are regarded as a matter of national security, politically and strategically, for Beijing. As far as in-flux ASEAN is concerned, Thailand may retain the status of strategic pivot for US interests. But now Washington must factor the delicate political equation before the looming – and extremely complex — royal succession, with the power of the Thai army solidified by a new constitution as it expands trade and political relations with both Russia and China.

*Still, the only discourse emanating from Washington boils down to Pentagon obsession with confrontation in the South China Sea and White House obsession with TPP, the trade arm of the pivot.*

Kishore Mahbubani, dean of Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, has been clever enough to propose a way out. *What if Washington accepted a Chinese contribution in terms of high-speed rail technology – as a means to jump-start the US economy from the Pacific to the Atlantic.* This China-US partnership in infrastructure would be, according to Mahbubani, a “match made in heaven”. The American Society of Civil Engineers has projected a $1.44 trillion investment funding gap in the US between 2016 and 2025 – generating a huge drag on business, exports and incomes. China would have the financial and institutional capacity to build that much-needed infrastructure.* TPP is a dead end. Perhaps Mahbubani should send his proposal to Donald Trump.
*
@AndrewJin , the HSR part is interesting.

@Daniel808

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## Dungeness

USA has been sending countless messages to China since 1949, nuclear or otherwise. They will keep sending messages, nothing more, nothing less.

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## S10

Heh that's cute.

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## Economic superpower

Message of hot air.

A true message would be those bombers dropping bombs on China's SCS islands.

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## terranMarine

Why bother keep making threads about US sending messages to DPRK, China and Russia when America does not want to ignite another Korean War? It only makes the OP look stupid 

Declaring war on Iraq based on false pretense didn't stop Americans so why not even repeat it again against these Communist bloc? 

The bald eagle doesn't suit America, i have a more suitable logo

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## Chinese-Dragon

The superpower has lost its balls against even North Korea, now that is amazing.

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## sword1947

we read it, that's all

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

I don't know why you mention "China" and "Russia".
Both of these 2 countries want to get rid of crazy North Korea.
What China has done before is just a try to change North Korea into a nomal country,not to protect NK.
If Nk collapsed,China might suffer some problems in a short time,but US would lost a foothold on east asia.
Because SK wouldn't need USA if NK were dead.
Then,do you know what will happen to SK?


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## Beast

As if China and Russia can't?












Economic superpower said:


> Message of hot air.
> 
> A true message would be those bombers dropping bombs on China's SCS islands.


The American don't dare to do it. They are cowards

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## ahojunk

_The ties between China and Russia is ever growing stronger each day.
These two look very happy meeting each other.
_
-------
Chinese president meets Russian federation council speaker on ties
(Xinhua) 20:22, September 09, 2016





_*Chinese President Xi Jinping (R) meets with Russian Federation Council Speaker Valentina Matviyenko in Beijing, capital of China, Sept. 9, 2016. (Xinhua/Li Xueren)*_

Chinese President Xi Jinping met with Russian Federation Council Speaker Valentina Matviyenko on Friday, pledging to improve bilateral relations.

Xi said China and Russia enjoy a high-level of mutual political trust and engage in mutually beneficial cooperation.

The comprehensive strategic partnership of collaboration between the two countries has helped shape a new type of international relations with win-win cooperation as its core, he said.

This year marks the 15th anniversary of the signing of the China-Russia Good-Neighborly Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation, as well as the 20th anniversary of the establishment of a strategic partnership of collaboration between the two countries.

Xi met with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin on Sunday in Hangzhou on the sidelines of the G20 summit, the third meeting between the two leaders this year.

Stressing that he and Putin reached new consensus on ties during the meeting, Xi called on both countries to work together to convert the political advantages into more substantial results, which would benefit the two countries and their people.

Regarding parliamentary relations, Xi spoke highly of the close exchanges between China's National People's Congress (NPC) and the Federal Assembly of Russian Federation in recent years.

He encouraged both sides to continue to share governance, legislation and oversight experience as this would help to consolidate political and strategic mutual trust and support bilateral relations.

Matviyenko spoke highly of the G20 summit in Hangzhou. She said Russia is willing to work with China to implement the consensus reached by two presidents, adding that the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation hopes to improve relations with China's NPC.

Matviyenko is on a three-day visit to China, from Wednesday, at the invitation of Zhang Dejiang, chairman of the NPC Standing Committee.

Later on Friday, Zhang and Matviyenko held talks on exchanges between the two countries' legislatures.

Zhang called on both sides to enhance cooperation in various fields, including under multilateral frameworks, to fully implement the important consensus reached by the two heads of state.

Following the talks, Zhang was presented the medal "Order of Friendship" by Matviyenko, on behalf of President Putin, in recognition of his contribution to China-Russia ties.

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## Nevsky

More pictures, cant w8 to see the ships in action.

































http://orientalist-v.livejournal.com/1518985.html

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## Daniel808

Thanks so much for the pictures, comrades @TaiShang @BRICSFTW 

Cannot wait to see Ships from both Navies Protecting each other in South China Sea.
Congrats for Chinese and Russian Friendship

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## ahojunk

Rosneft, ChemChina Sign Pact on Far Eastern Petrochemical Company





_Sputnik News. 19:43 04.09.2016 (updated 19:45 04.09.2016)_

Russia’s oil company Rosneft and China’s chemical giant ChemChina inked a deal on Sunday that outlines steps to create the Far Eastern Petrochemical Company (FEPCO).

HANGZHOU (Sputnik) — The document was signed by Rosneft CEO Igor Sechin and ChemChina’s Ren Jianxin on the sidelines of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s meeting with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in Hangzhou, China. 

*"The FEPCO project will become a new milestone in the partnership between our countries and will further strengthen Russian-Chinese economic ties. The creation of a joint venture will help us shape the development structure of the world’s one of the most advanced petrochemical projects that will have direct access to the Asia-Pacific market," *Sechin told reporters in Hangzhou.​
Under the agreement, Rosneft will hold a 60-percent share in the joint venture, while ChemChina will hold 40 percent.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/business/20160904/1044957673/rosneft-chemchina-far-east.html

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## ahojunk

_More pictures of the train from Qinghai to Belgium._

--------
*China Railway Express takes Tibetan products to Europe*
(CRIENGLISH.com) Updated: 2016-09-10 09:27





A freight train has left Qinghai bounding for Belgium on Sept 8, 2016. The train carries 44 containers packed with products like Tibetan tapestries and goji berries. The 12-day journey will take the train through Kazakhstan and Eastern European countries including Russia and Poland. It is the first train from the Tibet Plateau going to Europe. So far, 16 Chinese cities such as Chongqing, Wuhan and Xi'an have sent freight trains to European cities. [Photo / Chinanews.com]





A freight train has left Qinghai bounding for Belgium on Thursday. The train carries 44 containers packed with products like Tibetan tapestries and goji berries. The 12-day journey will take the train through Kazakhstan and Eastern European countries including Russia and Poland. It is the first train from the Tibet Plateau going to Europe. So far, 16 Chinese cities such as Chongqing, Wuhan and Xi'an have sent freight trains to European cities. [Photo / Chinanews.com]





A freight train has left Qinghai bounding for Belgium on Thursday. The train carries 44 containers packed with products like Tibetan tapestries and goji berries. The 12-day journey will take the train through Kazakhstan and Eastern European countries including Russia and Poland. It is the first train from the Tibet Plateau going to Europe. So far, 16 Chinese cities such as Chongqing, Wuhan and Xi'an have sent freight trains to European cities. [Photo / Chinanews.com]





A freight train has left Qinghai bounding for Belgium on Thursday. The train carries 44 containers packed with products like Tibetan tapestries and goji berries. The 12-day journey will take the train through Kazakhstan and Eastern European countries including Russia and Poland. It is the first train from the Tibet Plateau going to Europe. So far, 16 Chinese cities such as Chongqing, Wuhan and Xi'an have sent freight trains to European cities. [Photo / Chinanews.com]

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## TaiShang

BRICSFTW said:


> More pictures, cant w8 to see the ships in action.
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> http://orientalist-v.livejournal.com/1518985.html



Do share images and analyses, of the drill from Russian media, if any, my friend.

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## grey boy 2

Chinese and Russian marines joined exercise of attack and defend of islands 中俄混编陆战分队对岛礁防御之敌进行进攻战斗战术综合演练

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## T-55

New joint exercises"Peace Mission-2016"
The SCO exercises "Peace Mission-2016" will be held from 15 to 21 September 2016, with the participation of the Armed Forces of China, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Russia.




















Photos show hundreds of #Russia|n military vehicles on the move in #Tajikistan.












https://twitter.com/m3t4_tr0n?lang=en
http://orientalist-v.livejournal.com/?skip=12
http://www.kabar.kg/eng/society/full/16916

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## Nevsky

Chinese guests on russian ships.

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## ahojunk

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...68-11e6-8064-c1ddc8a724bb-20160911-story.html
*
China lays new brick in Silk Road with first Afghan rail freight *
Eltaf Najafizada, (c) 2016, Bloomberg(c) 2016, Bloomberg


For centuries, Chinese products have wended their way thousands of kilometers across mountains and deserts to the heart of central Asia, Afghanistan. Now, for the first time, the trade is carried by rail.

With the first train last week pulling in to Hairatan, northern Afghanistan, China marked another advance in President Xi Jinping's Silk Road project to deepen his nation's influence along old trade routes. For Afghan President Ashraf Ghani, the new link also marks a small step toward a dream of turning his landlocked country into a transit hub of Asia.

Already the top investor in the war-torn country to its west, China is aiming to boost its commercial standing, as the no. 5 trading partner currently. Deepening those ties would help Afghanistan pare back the influence of Pakistan, the southern neighbor with which ties have sometimes been strained over outbreaks of violence and closures in border crossings.

"It's an unprecedented, vital project for the Afghan economy," said Azarakhsh Hafizi, the head of the international relations committee at Afghanistan Chamber of Commerce &amp; Industries in the capital, Kabul. "That will greatly reduce Chinese imported commodities' prices and unprecedentedly improve our trade with China, now standing at tens of millions of dollars."

The train, carrying $4 million worth of commercial goods such as fabric, clothes and construction material, took just two weeks to arrive from the east coast of China, a fraction of the three-to-six months the road transit takes via Pakistan to the eastern border crossing into Afghanistan. It's a new link in Xi's "one belt, one road" project deepening the lattice of transport links across Eurasia, an initiative that's coming together in fits and starts, with advances in places like Bangladesh, and setbacks in locations including Thailand.

"Without Afghan connectivity, there is no way to connect China with rest of world," said Yao Jing, Chinese ambassador in Afghanistan, in a speech marking the first freight train's arrival on Sept. 7. "As a neighbor, China attaches greater importance to the development and peace process in Afghanistan."

China has for years had grand investment plans for Afghanistan's resource riches, which the Afghanistan Geological Survey estimates are as much as $3 trillion. While the Metallurgical Corp. of China Ltd. received a license in 2007 to mine the biggest Afghan copper deposit, and China National Petroleum Corp. won a contract in 2011 to drill for oil, development of the resources is still some ways off, thanks in part to the nation's patchy infrastructure.

"The direct railway can be the best route for them to transfer copper to China," Hafizi said.

Further economic development is being stymied by increasing terrorist attacks by the Taliban, Islamic State and other insurgents against Kabul's central government, which has often exercised little control over much of the country. Abduction is another impediment as at least 35 traders and businessmen were kidnapped in July, according to the Afghanistan Chamber of Commerce.

"China still confronts two major problems," said Dhruva Jaishankar, foreign policy fellow with Brookings Institution India Center. "First is that connectivity is still subject to a stabilization of the security situation in Afghanistan. The second is that many projects, including this one, will face questions of commercial viability."

The new transport corridor to China may help avoid these ongoing security threats, officials say. "Pakistan won't any longer be our only option for transit to have our goods imported from China," said Javid Faisal, a Afghanistan government spokesman.

A spokesman at the Pakistan Embassy in Kabul, Akhtar Muneer, declined to comment on the opening of the China-Afghanistan rail corridor or its affect on trade with his nation, currently the Afghans' top trading partner.

* Afghanistan's $600 million export industry -- including shipments of saffron, marble, lapis lazuli and high-quality Kurk wool -- will see "a considerable" increase following the opening of the rail route, *said Khan Jan Alokozay, a deputy chairman of the Afghanistan Chamber of Commerce.

Reducing import costs could help hold down inflation as Afghanistan takes from abroad some 90 percent of its commercial products such as food, fabric, electronics, construction materials, oil and gas.

Mohammad Rafi Amiri, the general director of Harirod Logistical Co. in Afghanistan, the company that imported the goods from China to Afghanistan, said *transporting directly from China could "reduce prices by 30 percent".*

The freight trains are expected to carry 45 containers of goods twice a month from the Chinese city of Haimen to Hairatan, according to Musafer Quqandi, a spokesman for the Ministry of Commerce and Industries. Once inside Afghanistan the goods will be transported to Mazar-e-Sharif city, the country's second biggest commercial center, through an extended 75 km railway built in 2010 with Asian Development Bank funding.

"The investments boost China's position as Afghanistan's biggest foreign investor," said Sayed Masood, an economics professor at Kabul University, in a phone interview. "The country now seeks to be Afghanistan's biggest trading partner."

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## grey boy 2

Updates

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## Viet

Beautiful pictures, more beautiful than those posted in mid autumn festival. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what islands from what enemy Chinese and Russian forces want to seize?

But honestly I am a bit disappointed. Had expected to see more: launch of cruise and ballistic missiles, endless of tanks and warships, bombers unloading tons of bombs on perceived enemy troops. At the end, Chinese girls hug Russian liberators. Xi Jinping and comrade Putin cry because of luck.


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## grey boy 2

Updates

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## grey boy 2

Updates

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## yusheng

on September 14th, the Russian Navy Corps mixed with Chinese Navy on reefs defense and attack drill site pictures:

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## yusheng

on September 16th, Russia jointed 2016 military exercises in airspace of Zhanjiang held a joint maritime search and rescue, maneuvering, joint boarding and inspection, joint coverup, anchorage defense drills

site pictures:

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## yusheng



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## yusheng

Tuesday's exercise featured a light weapons shooting competition, sea crossing, island landing, climbing and gliding.

The joint drill demonstrates the shared security concerns of both China and Russia, Chen Hu, a military expert, told Xinhua. The joint exercise helps improve the capability of the two navies to address maritime security threats, and safeguard regional security and stability.

"One of the joint exercise highlights is coordinated three-dimensional island seizing," Chen said.

Zhang Junshe, senior research fellow of the Military and Academic Institute of the Chinese Navy, said the navies would perform operations in a number of areas, including air defense, anti-submarine, anti-vessel, and landings.

http://eng.mod.gov.cn/DefenseNews/2016-09/13/content_4730051.htm

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## simple Brain

Report China Acquires Vicious 1,553MPH Su-35 Multirole Fighter Jets From Russia.
The first four Su-35 fighter jets from a 24 aircraft arms deal between the two allies are to be delivered before the end of the year according to a statement by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant. This week the governor of Khabarovsk Krai, a federal area located in the Russian Far East, said in a statement during the opening of a new aircraft production plant that China will receive the first four Russian-made Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighter jets in consideration of a 24 aircraft deal between Moscow and Beijing signed in November of 2015. © AFP 2016/ SABAH ARAR Russian MoD Confirms US-Led Coalition's F-16, A-10 Jets Attacked Syrian Army From 2016 to 2018, the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production plant will build and deliver a total of 24 Su-35 combat jets to China, the governor said according to RIA news agency as part of the agreement first forged between the parties in late 2015. The Diplomat explains that the "the Su-35 is a Fourth++ generation, twin-engine, highly maneuverable multirole fighter jet powered by two AL-117S turbofan engines.
The Russian aircraft’s powerful turbofan engine is also the most likely reason why China is interested in acquiring Su-35 fighters." The fighter jet has a maximum speed of 1,553 MPH (2500kmh) with advanced dry thrust and afterburner capabilities that enhance the aircraft’s dogfight maneuverability and semi-stealth design that makes it possibly the most lethal fighter jet in the sky. The Su-35 is Russia’s top air-superiority fighter, until the fifth-generation PAK-FA stealth fighter comes into production, with a clear maneuverability edge over existing fighter jets and a limited radar cross section after adjustments were made to the engine inlets and canopy as well as a series of modifications including the use of “radar-absorbent material” that gives the flanker a stealth-like profile. © AFP 2016/ GEORGE OURFALIAN Damascus Accuses US-Led Coalition of Bombing Syrian Army in Deir Ez-Zor The fighter jet comes armed with K-77M radar-guided missiles with a range of over 120 miles (193km) providing pilots with standoff capabilities ensuring pilot protection, an R-74 infrared-guided missiles that allow for targeting by a pilot using a helmet-mounted optical sight, and a thirty-millimeter cannon with 150 rounds for dogfight battles. The acquisition of the Su-35 by the Chinese is a major boon for the country’s defense as well as its avionics industry. China has worked to produce its own turbofan akin to the Su-35’s, known as the WS-10 turbofan, but it continues to underperform the Russian-made AL-117S. If China is able to reverse engineer the technology they may be able to rapidly overcome their avionics gap with the West.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160917/1045416113/china-fighter-jet-russia-su35.html

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## enquencher

What a idiotic title twist given in op.


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## ahojunk

_This is an opinion piece._
--------
Belt and Road Initiative beneficial to all
2016-09-14 10:02:04 CRIENGLISH.com Web Editor: Liang Tao






*By Liang Tao*

The now-concluded G20 Leaders Summit in Hangzhou has concentrated at four core concepts: Innovation, Invigoration, Interconnectivity and Inclusiveness, which have been dubbed the "4 I's." The last two are the essence of plans to enhance global economic revitalization and recovery. UN chief Ban Ki-moon has also highlighted sustainable growth as a key factor in the communiqué released from the Summit, the first in G20 history. In it, he suggests sustainable growth can be understood as a continuing development model. A path toward interconnectivity, inclusiveness and sustainable growth are also a new standard being offered in China's Belt and Road Initiative.

This means the "Belt and Road" strategy can't merely attempt to blindly copy either China's economic growth pattern or an industrial upgrade model used in other countries. Instead, "Belt and Road" needs to establish a tailor-made development path to cope with the diversified needs in countries where the local environment, social and cultural customs, as well as the level of economic development, need to be taken into account. This is the direction the "Belt and Road" plan should be heading toward.

The Belt and Road Initiative, first put forward by President Xi Jinping during his state visit to Kazakhstan in 2013, is a blueprint for building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes. Since its first suggestion three years ago, the blueprint has been detailed, and achievements have already gone far beyond expectations. The "Belt and Road" plan is now in common use in world politics and global economics.

"Belt and Road" has also been widely supported by the international community. More than 100 countries and international organizations are already participating in the initiative. China has signed cooperation agreements with more than 30 countries along the routes, and has launched international industrial capacity cooperation with more than 20 others. In 2015, bilateral trade among China and participating countries surpassed one trillion US dollars.

As an open and inclusive regional growth-oriented proposal, the "Belt and Road" project has a goal of using the advantages individual countries possess to expand economic links, while also serving to explore new economic growth areas. Its launch comes at a time when the developing and developed worlds both face challenges in trying to overcome a tendency during tough economic times to turn toward protectionism. In order to bolster the initiative, China has played a leading role in establishing the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) and the Silk Road Fund. This is an example of China turning words into action.

By providing financing to the developing world, China is keen to spur infrastructure development, particularly at a time when securing funds for projects has proven difficult from Western-dominated organizations. This is a testament to China's global insight, as well as the government's long-term goal of creating a global society that works together. Steps such as capital infusions to the IMF, actively joining in UN peacekeeping missions and taking a lead on climate change are among the steps which show China wants to be a global leader.

Last but not least, win-win cooperation and benefit sharing need to be the linchpin which holds the "Belt and Road" strategy together. For China, in the short term, countries which participate are going to gain immediate benefits. But beyond this, "Belt and Road" is also going to help cement closer ties with China, as well as set an example for others to join in the win-win strategy.

In the long run, in addition to bringing a more pragmatic approach to China's foreign policy, as well as creating economic benefits for the 4.4 billion people who live in the "Belt and Road" region, the initiative should also help China open itself up more to the outside world through regional integration.

In the end, it just makes sense for the regional community and the businesses that work within it to become involved with the Belt and Road Initiative.

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## Shotgunner51

*Why Russia And China Are Intent On Salvaging Syria’s Economy*

September 16, 2016

*An economy in ruins*

More than five years of armed conflict has had a catastrophic impact on the Syrian economy. National GDP has plummeted to less than 50 percent of pre-conflict output, and according to recent figures, the total economic loss to date amounts to 275 billion USD – around five times the country’s 2010 GDP. As violence continues in several parts of the country, especially in the pre-conflict commercial powerhouse of Aleppo, Syria’s economic downfall can be expected to continue.

The extreme damage to the economy is due to a combination of a 25 percent drop in overall population, the displacement of half of all Syrians, a steep drop in economic activity, capital flight, massive destruction of infrastructure and productive capacity, as well as the loss of 25 million school years for Syria’s children, which will reduce labour productivity for the coming generation. Furthermore, large segments of the Syrian business elite that initially remained confident in the future of the country have lost faith and divested their assets and relocated to neighbouring countries.

Such an economic impact is not only affecting the Syrian population at present, but will be felt for decades, if not generations. If the war ended this year, it would take 10-15 years before Syria’s per capita GDP would return to pre-conflict levels. And as the violence is expected to continue well into the future, total long-term economic costs could reach up to 1 trillion USD – nearly 20 times the 2010 GDP. One vital economic sector that has been hit extremely hard is the agricultural sector. Fighting has destroyed irrigation systems and other infrastructure, depleted water supplies, ruined soil conditions, obstructed trade and caused massive displacement of the farming population. This came on top of Syria suffering yet another drought with cumulative rainfall in 2013-14 being less than half of the long-term average. As a result, Syria’s wheat production has dropped 30 percent compared to pre-conflict levels and made the country highly dependent on cereal imports to mitigate growing food insecurity.

There is however some positive news for Syria’s agricultural sector. Among them is a programme recently adopted by newly-appointed Prime Minister Imad Khamis’ government prudently designed to support the agricultural production. This includes government donations for home agriculture and measures to facilitate domestic food production in addition to potential micro-loans for rural women to further revive the sector and catalyse local growth.

Another extremely important sector for the Syrian economy is that of hydrocarbons. In 2011 Syria’s oil production stood at 400,000 barrels per day but due to heavy fighting over territorial control with oil fields this has now dropped to a daily production of only 15,000-25,000 barrels, with a substantial part extracted and sold by various armed non-state groups. The Syrian army and its allies are, however, currently seeking to regain full control of the country’s hydrocarbon resources and the associated infrastructure, especially in central Syria.

In eastern Hama governorate, pro-government forces backed by Russian airstrikes in late July took control over parts of a key oil pipeline east of Salamiyah. North-east of Palmyra in Homs governorate, fighting is taking place around the gas facilities of Arak while airstrikes regularly target the IS-held oil town of Sukhna.

At the Mahr and Jazal oil fields and Shaer gas fields north-west of Palmyra, pro-government ground forces backed by airstrikes are additionally fighting off IS militants in order to increase the daily production. While these efforts will likely only have a minor short-term economic impact, they could prove crucial in the long-term goal of restarting the country’s oil production and benefiting the overall Syrian economy.






Syria’s hotspot in the struggle for control of hydrocarbon sites​
*A helping hand*

Since the Russian military intervention in September 2015, the battle fortunes of Bashar al-Assad’s government have seen a significant reversal. This has brought relative stability to many government-controlled parts of the country and has also allowed for initial steps of economic reconstruction, a process in which Assad’s foreign allies Russia and China are set to play a key role.

The economic cooperation between Syria and Russia stretches back decades and several Russian corporations have contracts in Syria from before the conflict. According to the Moscow Times these were already worth around 20 billion USD in 2011, and it is a number certain to rise in the future.

Several recent high-level visits to Moscow by the Syrian president himself, his minister of foreign affairs and other government officials have, for example, involved discussions about Russian companies including Gazprom, Soyuzneftegaz, Lukoil and Zarubezhneft getting further involved in Syria’s oil production.

Arms exports have also been a key Russian business interest closely tied to the Syrian government. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Russian arms sales to Syria totalled 4.7 billion USD from 2007-2010. The Moscow Times estimated active bilateral arms contracts at 4 billion USD in 2011 alone, including MiG-29 fighter jets, Pantsir surface-to-air missiles, tanks, artillery systems and anti-tank weapons.

Russia has also played a key role in Syria’s monetary system. Since 2012, Russia has been printing Syrian pounds and flying them to Syria to allow the government to pay public sector salaries in spite of rapidly declining reserves. Additionally, Russian President Vladimir Putin has channeled billions of dollars to the Syrian government to prevent a financial collapse.

Eager to cash-in on its massive support for the Assad government, Russia will likely not only seek to replenish the Syrian army’s weapons stockpiles after the conflict, but also seek to ensure a favourable position come the time of distribution of reconstruction contracts in several sectors.

In addition to Russia, China will likely also play a key role in Syria’s post-conflict economic recovery. Although Chinese oil workers were pulled out of Syria in 2013 due to escalating violence, the Chinese National Petroleum Corporation still holds shares in two of Syria’s largest oil producers: The Syrian Petroleum Company and Al-Furat Petroleum Company, while Sinochem also holds substantial shares in various Syrian oil fields.

China’s role in Syria’s economic recovery will, however, not be limited to the oil sector. In December, China offered Syria 6 billion USD worth of investments in addition to 10 billion USD worth of existing contracts, as well as a significant deal signed between the Syrian government and Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei to rebuild Syria’s telecom infrastructure as part of China’s 900 billion USD ‘Silk Road’ infrastructure initiative.

China has also been a major exporter of weapons systems to the Syrian government. In the 1990s China was selling Syria ballistic missiles technology and from 2006-2010 the People’s Republic was Syria’s fifth-largest provider of conventional weapons. Chinese exporters have also been linked to Syria’s chemical weapons programmes. In terms of overall trade, in 2010 China was the largest source of imports to Syria.

Aiming to defend these economic interests, Chinese officials recently announced plans to increase humanitarian support for the Syrian people as well as military support for the Syrian government in the fight against terrorism. In mid-August the Director of the Office for International Military Cooperation of China’s Central Military Commission, Guan Youfei, arrived in Damascus and pledged to expand Chinese military support for the Syrian government, likely including both training and military hardware deliveries.

Backed by military commitments to President Assad’s rule, Russia and China have doubled down on their existing business interests in Syria and thus further positioned themselves to play a key role in the future recovery of several sectors in the devastated Syrian economy.


_Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-russia-china-intent-salvaging-190000702.html_

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## Shotgunner51

*What is Eurasianism?*
_*
Published on September 18th, 2016
by Graham E. Fuller*_





_Photo: Meeting of Eurasian Economic Council._​You might recall the term “Eurasia” from high school geography classes. The term isn’t used much any more in political discussions in the West, but it should be. That is where the most serious geopolitical action is going to be taking place in the world as we move deeper into the 21st century. The US, focused so intently on “containment” of Russia, ISIS, and China will be missing the bigger Eurasian strategic picture. 

Eurasia is the greatest landmass of the world, embracing Europe and all of Asia—some of the oldest and greatest centers of human civilization.

*So what is Eurasianism?* It has meant different things at different periods. A century ago, the Kissingers of the time spun theories about a deep and inevitable strategic clash between sea-borne power (UK/US) and continental/land-based powers (Germany, Russia.) “Eurasia” then meant mostly Europe and western Russia. Indeed, what need was there to talk then about Asia itself, most of Asia was underdeveloped and lay under the control of the British Empire (India) or the French (Indo-China) and had no independent will. Japan was the only real “Asian power”—that ironically developed its own imperial designs, and thus came to clash with American imperial power in the Pacific.

Today of course all that is different. Eurasia increasingly means “Asia” in which the “Euro” part figures modestly. Furthermore, China has now become the center of Eurasia as the world’s largest economy. Not surprisingly, China (like the Muslim world) projects a decidedly “anti-imperial” bent based on what it sees as its humiliation at the hands of the West and Japan during its two-hundred year eclipse—during one of its dynastic down-cycles. But China is very much back now into a classic “up-cycle” mode of power and influence again and is determined to project its weight and influence. India too now is now a rapidly developing power with regional reach. And Japan, while quiescent, still represents formidable economic power, perhaps to be augmented by greater military regional reach.

The significance of the term “Eurasian” has changed a good deal, but it still suggests strategic rivalry. At a time when the US formally declares its intent to militarily dominate the world (“full spectrum dominance” was the official Pentagon doctrine in 2000) the concept of Eurasianism is responding with vigor. And not just in China, but in its new significance for countries like Russia, Iran, even Turkey. It suggests a sense of the eclipse of dominant western power in the face of new Asian power.

It’s not all just about military and money. It’s also cultural. Russian culture has for two centuries maintained a lively debate about whether Russia belongs to the West, or embodies a distinctly Eurasian (yevraziiskaya) culture that is separate from the West. Eurasianists represent a significant force within Russian strategic and military thinking (although Putin, interestingly, does not fully embrace this world-view.)

The idea is a vague but culturally important one; it grapples with Russian identity. It speaks of a Slavic culture but with deep Eurasian roots even in an old Turkic and Tatar past. Remember that historically it is the modern West that torched Russia twice: witness the invasions of Napoleon and Hitler up to the gates of Moscow. Nato today probes ever more deeply all around the Russian periphery. The Eurasianists are suspicious of, if not hostile to, the West as a permanent threat to “Holy Mother Russia.” “Eurasianism” will always lurk just beneath the surface in the Russian strategic world-view.

That is what Russia’s new Eurasian Economic Union is all about, a goal to at least economically unite Belarus, the Central Asian states and others into a greater Eurasian economic whole. (Oil-rich Kazakstan was actually the author of the concept; it will seek to maintain ties with the West; but look at it its place on a world map to see where Kazakstan’s real long-term options lie. Russia may not now be the best economic star to tie one’s future to, but it is just one of many Eurasian vehicles out there and they are not mutually exclusive. Options bring greater security.

China is moving in stunningly ambitious directions in creating the new _Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank_ (that 57 states have signed onto including most European states, Canada and Australia—but conspicuously without Japan so far, or the US.) This creates a new Eurasian-focused central banking instrument with strong Chinese influence. China is also projecting massive new transportation networks (the Silk Road Economic Belt and the Maritime Silk Road —“One Belt One Road”) across Eurasia to China linking China to Europe, the Middle East, Central and South Asia, and the Far East by rail, road, and sea. China’s “Eurasian strategy” is already a burgeoning reality. Yes, suspicions and rivalries exist between Russia and China and India and Japan. But the strong economic and developmental thrust of these proposals differ markedly from the American more “security” focused organization with its worrisome military implications.

Not only has Washington fought these Chinese and Eurasian initiatives unsuccessfully, but it is US policies in particular—that identify both Russia and China as the presumptive enemy—that have helped bring Russia and China together on many issues, linked now by shared distrust of US global military ambitions.

Japan, incidentally, before World War II had its own doctrine of “Eurasianism” —an effort to identify with and stir up Asian peoples and territories against western colonial domination; this strategy could have been quite effective had it not been accompanied by Japan’s own brutal military invasions of East Asian countries, destroying the credibility of the Japanese _“Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere”_. Today Japan hasn’t moved its location; it will still have to deal with the reality of Chinese power in the East. And what Japanese leader would seriously pursue a long range policy of hostility to China in support of a US Pacific strategy that is inherently designed to bottle up China? Especially when China and Japan are huge mutual trading and investment partners?

Iran is keenly interested in balancing against geopolitical pressures from the US and seeks membership in these Russian and Chinese economic development institutions. Iran is a natural “Eurasian “ and “Silk Road” power.

Turkey has gotten into the Eurasian game, again. Going back to the early days of Erdogan’s AK Party foreign policy— in the vision of then foreign minister Davutoglu—Turkey was no longer limited to being a western power, but also proclaimed its geopolitical interests (nearly a hundred years after the fall of the Ottoman Empire) in the Middle East, and indeed, Eurasia. (After all, the Turks originally come from Eurasia, having migrated west from Lake Baikal a thousand years ago.) That means serious ties with Russia, combined with deep ethnic, cultural and historical ties with Central Asia, and with China. Turkey (like Iran and Pakistan) seeks to be part of these Russian and Chinese networks. And, among some Turkish nationalist politicians and military officers (including many secular Kemalists) there is strong “Eurasianist” leaning to expand Turkey’s geopolitical options to explore strategic and cultural ties with Eurasia. It also reflects an expression of distrust of western and US efforts to dominate the region.

For Turkey this is not an either/or issue. It can seek to be part of Europe (including Nato) but will not relinquish the broad geostrategic alternative options to the East, with its ever greater economic clout, and roads and rails to link it.

In short, the new Eurasianism is no longer about nineteenth century land and sea power. It is an acknowledgment that the era of western (and especially US) global dominance is over. Washington can no longer command (or afford) a longer-term bid to dominate Eurasia. In economic terms no state in the region, including Turkey, would be foolish enough to turn its back on this rising “Eurasian” potential that also offers strategic balance and economic options.

There are, of course, huge fault-lines across Eurasia—ethnic, economic, strategic, and some degree of rivalry. But the more Washington attempts to contain or throttle Eurasianism as a genuine rising force, the greater will be the determination of states to become part of this rising Eurasian world, even while not rejecting the West.

All countries like to have alternatives. They don’t like to lie beholden to a single global power that tries to call the shots. America’s narrative of what the global order is all about is no longer accepted globally. Furthermore it is no longer realistic. It would seem short-sighted for Washington to continue focus upon expanding military alliances while most of the rest of the world is looking to greater prosperity and rising regional clout. (China’s military expenditures are about one quarter of US spending.)



_*Graham E. Fuller* is a former senior CIA official, author of numerous books on the Muslim World; his latest book is “Breaking Faith: A novel of espionage and an American’s crisis of conscience in Pakistan.” (Amazon, Kindle)._

Source: http://lobelog.com/what-is-eurasianism/

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## Indus Pakistan

Shotgunner51 said:


> You


Interesting article. I wonder if you are aware of the writings of Halford Mackinder and his "Hearland Theory"?

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History

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## terranMarine

*Three years after inception of OBOR*

Three years have passed since the inception of the Belt and Road initiative, namely the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, which intends to build a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient trade routes.

Have things panned out as we expected?

*To date more than 100 countries and international organizations are on board for the initiative, with more than 30 bilateral cooperation agreements signed. More than 20 countries have launched international industrial capacity cooperation with China. Meanwhile, newly established multilateral institutions committed to supporting the initiative, such as the China-proposed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) which has 57 founding members including some key US allies, and the New Development Bank (NDB), are in operation, with China playing a bigger role in international financial affairs.*

But the success of the Belt and Road cannot only be summed up by a list of numbers, as it does not tell us the whole story. It's time we dive deeper into the initiative and take a look at what we have achieved.

*Firstly, the B&R initiative re-balances the aspirations of China and those of other participants in a pragmatic manner. Three years on, many countries relish the chance to better cooperate with China and more crucially, to spur their own economic development.* Through candid bilateral talks, goals are set, needs are defined and challenges are identified. Both are aware of what their respective core competence and comparative advantages are, and what they want to achieve. The Belt and Road scheme did not create a lot of projects, so to speak. *Conversely, it is a facilitator to align China's vision with the development strategies of participants, in which China contributes its standard, experience and management expertise and assumes a due share of responsibility, speeding up the local development process. Hundreds of local level projects have therefore been clustered under the same umbrella made in China, the Belt and Road initiative.*

*Examples abound under the umbrella, such as the $1.4 billion Port City project in Colombo. The mega project was back in business after one year's suspension due to some environmental and regulatory concerns. That was by no means a surprise, as the Chinese builder wants to promote "Sri Lanka as the ultimate business and tourist destination center for trade, exhibitions and conferences in Asia, enabling the establishment of a Center/Hub of the marine Silk Road in Asia and the preferred global tourism destination in Asia." This is exactly what the Sri Lankan government wants to achieve - to build Colombo as a shipping hub in the Indian Ocean - and that coincides with the Chinese blueprint of bilateral cooperation. Who would have the heart to reject a cheap yet lavish banquet when s/he is ravenous?*

*Secondly, the Belt and Road re-balances supply and demand, such as China's surplus in capital and overcapacity in its industrial sectors, and emerging economies' daunting needs for infrastructure and foreign investment, across different regions. It injects new impetus to globalization and provides a slew of pro-growth measures for the sluggish world economy. *

The initiative benefits all stakeholders involved. Many of the projects would have never kicked off, as some countries along the routes, both in the Belt and on the Road, are places with a heap of problems – be it poverty affecting a large number of people, terrorism, piracy issues, or a lack of institutional infrastructure. In a word, growth prospects are gloomy because of various risks and uncertainties. * Existing international financial institutions such as the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank would decline their request for loans in building infrastructure based on the risk assessment of the project. The B&R initiative is a silver-lining to help build connectivity thereby creating jobs, facilitating trade, reducing poverty, curbing terrorism, and narrowing the gap between rich and poor.*

The construction of the 19.2-km Qamchiq Tunnel in Uzbekistan is exemplary. As the longest of its kind in Central Asia so far, it relieves traffic pressure for about 10 million people who account for over one third of the country's population. It is noteworthy that only after a Chinese bank - the Export-Import Bank of China - loaned Uzbekistan $350 million to fund the tunnel in 2014 did the World Bank issue another loan of $195 million for the remaining railway project.

It's not only those developing countries that get bountiful fruits out of the B&R initiative, though. Many advanced economies do, too. That's why despite criticism voiced by the US, many developed economies all followed Britain's footsteps, including the most recent applicant, Canada, and joined the AIIB, demonstrating their interest in B&R projects. The reason behind this is simple. *A recent report issued by the Brussels-based think tank Bruegel says that a 10 percent reduction in railway, air and maritime costs increases trade by 2 percent, 5.5 percent and 1.1 percent, respectively. Based on the computation given by the report, Yuxinou railway line, a B&R project linking China's Chongqing to Germany's Duisburg, reported a reduction in transportation costs by 50 percent last year. That's why analysts say that the EU, which is projected to have a 6% increase in trade, will be the biggest winner from the initiative compared with other regions. The B&R is good news for cash-strapped Europe that suffered tough austerity measures and now faces a continuous influx of refugees. Don't forget that that is only trade we are talking about, aside from the other positive ripple benefits brought by the B&R initiative.*

By sailing on the boat of international industrial capacity cooperation, Chinese firms are going global at an unprecedented rate, and excess capacity built up in China's industrial sector, coupled with its expertise in equipment manufacturing and infrastructure construction, has been moving beyond home turf to cater to a larger market. Countries along the routes laud it, because they know the more infrastructure there is in the world, the greater progress there will be.

However, there are some countries that feel threatened by it. And it's unnecessary. For example, Iran, India and Afghanistan signed a milestone deal to develop the strategic Chabahar port, connecting the three countries to Central Asia. It will allow India to bypass Pakistan to Afghanistan and Europe, and is seen as an alternate to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, a crucial part of the B&R initiative. Contrast to hype created by boisterous foreign media, China was neither upset nor jealous and it said the improvement of infrastructure in Central Asia would also offer opportunities for Chinese companies. China neither viewed the agreement as a threat nor India as an arch-rival, as China realized that although it was a trilateral agreement, it can facilitate multilateral participation. Later Iran did welcome China to engage in the development of the port.

*Finally, the Belt and Road is China's global investment strategy that re-balances the growing trend toward anti-globalization activism. Unlike Uncle Sam's strategy to alienate China by excluding China in its Trans-Pacific Partnership and not joining the AIIB, and amidst the rise of nationalism and populism - after all, we are not sure what adverse consequences will be in the aftermath of Brexit and what the world will be if Donald Trump wins the US presidency - China believes in inclusive growth and has faith in globalization. It does and will continue to focus on joint development and promote common prosperity through the Belt and Road initiative. *

China has to learn a lot and there are bound to be trials and tribulations ahead, but it has met challenges already. Nonetheless, China is not into navel-gazing and has provided a solution to the acute hangover left by the latest financial crisis. Much as what Dominic Barton, global managing director of McKinsey & Company, told me in an interview, that led by infrastructure, *the Belt and Road initiative benefits the whole world on every dimension. Most importantly, it is not only about GDP growth. Rather, it is GDP growth plus green growth plus inclusive growth, applying China's experience to the rest of the world to improve the well-being of those who have lived in landlocked countries and those who are moving to the middle class. In total, more than 4 billion people around the world.*

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## Jlaw

Time to make East / SE Asia , European continent centre of the world again.


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## Jlaw

三國遊戲 in the 21st century


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## ahojunk

Shotgunner51 said:


> According to the Moscow Times these were already worth around 20 billion USD in 2011





Shotgunner51 said:


> Russian arms sales to Syria totalled 4.7 billion USD from 2007-2010. The Moscow Times estimated active bilateral arms contracts at 4 billion USD in 2011 alone,





Shotgunner51 said:


> In December, China offered Syria 6 billion USD worth of investments in addition to 10 billion USD worth of existing contracts,





Shotgunner51 said:


> Huawei to rebuild Syria’s telecom infrastructure as part of China’s 900 billion USD ‘Silk Road’ infrastructure initiative.





Shotgunner51 said:


> In terms of overall trade, in 2010 China was the largest source of imports to Syria.


.
It's all down to money, isn't it. China has learnt a bitter lesson in Libya where it lost billions of dollars.
Money talks, bullsh*t walks.

Russia and China have to protect their economic interests. The west isn't going to do it for them.

For Russia, China and Syria, it's win-win for all three.




Shotgunner51 said:


> Russia and China have doubled down on their existing business interests in Syria and thus further positioned themselves to play a key role in the future recovery of several sectors in the devastated Syrian economy.



I hope the fighting in Syria will end soon and reconstruction is able to start. The people of Syria has suffered long enough.

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## ahojunk

terranMarine said:


> Finally, the Belt and Road is China's global investment strategy that re-balances the growing trend toward anti-globalization activism. Unlike Uncle Sam's strategy to alienate China by excluding China in its Trans-Pacific Partnership and not joining the AIIB, and amidst the rise of nationalism and populism - after all, we are not sure what adverse consequences will be in the aftermath of Brexit and what the world will be if Donald Trump wins the US presidency - China believes in inclusive growth and has faith in globalization. It does and will continue to focus on joint development and promote common prosperity through the Belt and Road initiative.


.
To be honest, I am not sure nor worried about what Uncle Sam can do.

US is the world's biggest debtor nation and sinking into more and more debt each passing day.

They are sustaining their economy by printing fiat money and this cannot go on forever.

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## TaiShang

*Chinese, Russian fleets conduct weapon use during joint drill*
September 19th, 2016, Xinhua





A radar operator reports situation on Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese and Russian fleets fire main guns during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" fires depth charge rockets during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" fires a main gun during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" fires secondary guns during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)







Water columns soar high after Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" fires depth charge rockets during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)

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## TaiShang

*Guidelines for China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor unveiled

People's Daily, Sept 18. 2016*

Last week, China’s National Development and Reform Commission unveiled guidelines for the construction of the China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor.* These are the first multilateral cooperation guidelines under the Belt and Road Initiative.*

China, Mongolia and Russia have always emphasized the commonalities and connections between their strategies. *The guidelines state that these connections of the Silk Road economic belt, the Eurasian Economic Union and the Prairie Road program are the ultimate goal of the project.*

"There is a clear need for a connection of the three countries’ strategies. *Mongolia is striving to develop an export-oriented economy, but it lacks a development channel in the East and West; Russia wants to integrate into Eurasian economic development with the help of the Belt and Road Initiative; for China, development of the economic corridor is conducive to opening up the market to the north.* Therefore, effective syncing of the three countries’ strategies is a good thing for all," said Lin Guijun, vice president of the University of International Business and Economics.

The tripartite collaboration also has a solid foundation in economics and trade. *Data from the Development and Reform Commission shows that in 2015, trade volume between China and Mongolia reached $7.3 billion, and that trade volume between China and Russia amounted to $64.2 billion. China has become Mongolia’s largest trade partner and investor for the 10th consecutive year. China is also Russia's fifth largest export market and largest source of imports.*

The guidelines propose seven concrete areas for cooperation, including the* improvement of transport facilities through the expansion of land, air and sea connections; the renovation of ports of entry; and an overhaul of customs procedures for easier clearance.*

Indeed, the three countries are complementary in a variety of areas.* In infrastructure, for example, Mongolia’s Prairie Road program proposes the construction of highways, railways and oil pipelines, but the country lacks adequate technical and financial resources. Meanwhile, Russia faces a high demand for high-speed rails and other transportation facilities. China has accumulated abundant experience in these areas.* Thus, cooperation in these fields not only promotes infrastructure development but also expand trade and investment between the nations.

The three countries have already begun cooperation across seven fields. *At the China-Mongolia-Russia Cooperation Fair, held in China, agreements worth $6.4 billion were signed.* The highway for New Ulaanbaatar International Airport, a project between China and Mongolia, and the Moscow-Kazan high-speed railway, jointly undertaken by China and Russia, have all injected vigor into the local economy.

@Sinopakfriend

***

Saving for future reference (thread by @terranMarine ):

https://defence.pk/threads/three-years-after-inception-of-obor.450068/

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> *Guidelines for China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor unveiled
> 
> People's Daily, Sept 18. 2016*
> 
> Last week, China’s National Development and Reform Commission unveiled guidelines for the construction of the China-Mongolia-Russia economic corridor.* These are the first multilateral cooperation guidelines under the Belt and Road Initiative.*
> 
> China, Mongolia and Russia have always emphasized the commonalities and connections between their strategies. *The guidelines state that these connections of the Silk Road economic belt, the Eurasian Economic Union and the Prairie Road program are the ultimate goal of the project.*
> 
> "There is a clear need for a connection of the three countries’ strategies. *Mongolia is striving to develop an export-oriented economy, but it lacks a development channel in the East and West; Russia wants to integrate into Eurasian economic development with the help of the Belt and Road Initiative; for China, development of the economic corridor is conducive to opening up the market to the north.* Therefore, effective syncing of the three countries’ strategies is a good thing for all," said Lin Guijun, vice president of the University of International Business and Economics.
> 
> The tripartite collaboration also has a solid foundation in economics and trade. *Data from the Development and Reform Commission shows that in 2015, trade volume between China and Mongolia reached $7.3 billion, and that trade volume between China and Russia amounted to $64.2 billion. China has become Mongolia’s largest trade partner and investor for the 10th consecutive year. China is also Russia's fifth largest export market and largest source of imports.*
> 
> The guidelines propose seven concrete areas for cooperation, including the* improvement of transport facilities through the expansion of land, air and sea connections; the renovation of ports of entry; and an overhaul of customs procedures for easier clearance.*
> 
> Indeed, the three countries are complementary in a variety of areas.* In infrastructure, for example, Mongolia’s Prairie Road program proposes the construction of highways, railways and oil pipelines, but the country lacks adequate technical and financial resources. Meanwhile, Russia faces a high demand for high-speed rails and other transportation facilities. China has accumulated abundant experience in these areas.* Thus, cooperation in these fields not only promotes infrastructure development but also expand trade and investment between the nations.
> 
> The three countries have already begun cooperation across seven fields. *At the China-Mongolia-Russia Cooperation Fair, held in China, agreements worth $6.4 billion were signed.* The highway for New Ulaanbaatar International Airport, a project between China and Mongolia, and the Moscow-Kazan high-speed railway, jointly undertaken by China and Russia, have all injected vigor into the local economy.
> 
> @Sinopakfriend
> 
> ***
> 
> Saving for future reference (thread by @terranMarine ):
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/three-years-after-inception-of-obor.450068/



TaiShang, my friend,

First, welcome back. Hopefully, you had good holidays!


If we look at OBOR as an architectural arefact, then North corridor i.e. Sino-Rus-/Sino-Rus-Mongolia route is one of the most stable and trouble free. The vast landmass and rich resources make Mongolia a natural partner. They are very eager to join OBOR and have been lobbying China to build it through their lands.

CPEC is the southern opposite op this architecture. Goes beyond Pak geography. Afro-Asian Ocean is where China's Marinetime Silk Road is more vulenerable to our southern hegemon/'going to be' super power who has for all intents and purposes joined the troublemakers camp. @Kaptaan 

Central asian route is also not totally free of troublemakers but not to the extent as CPEC, SCS, ECS and Afro-Asian ocean. What China is rightfully doing is building many alternatives, openings for trade and lines of communications.

With right paced economic integeration of eurasia, South West Asia / ME and Africa through CPEC and active naval economic architecture in Africa from Afro-Asian Ocean to Atalntic the route to South America becoems secure and open. 

Given the intentesity of sobotage of CPEC by the rising troublemaker some secutrity concerns emerge. 

Nothing what China can not handle...it is just multifronted attempts by the Contain China Party from SCS, ECS to Afro-Asian Ocean. The delusional powers think that the Dragon can be contained.

But then no one said that global empire will whither away peacefully and let a new Constructive and Inclusive Paradigm emerge.

On positive note China is building critical mass diligently and managing the empire with Virtue. 


.

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## TaiShang

*China's Win-Win with Russia at the G20 Summit of Hangzou*

_Replacing the US dollar as the main currency in world economy remains Beijing's shared goal with Moscow_

Sat, Sep 17, 2016

Giancarlo Elia Valori 

In a letter written in December 2015, Xi Jinping proposed some national and global objectives for the G20 Summit of September 4-5, 2016. For the CCP Secretary the aim of the G20 system - which he recalls was born at the beginning of the 2008 financial crisis - would be to develop concrete goals leading to a multipolar and shared global economy.

In that letter Xi Jinping said that, if said goals were reached, China would provide its decisive contribution, even partially changing its production system.

The win-win strategy is the declared goal of the Chinese Secretary. Over and above the wording of this concept, this has a very specific meaning.

As shown by statistics, 77% of all the goals set at the previous G20 Summit held in Antalya have been achieved.

Furthermore, considering that data shows that the G20 countries account for approximately 90% of the world GDP, we can realize that, over and above declarations of principle and set phrases, for China the Hangzou Summit was the ideal forum to start redesigning its place in the world.

In his opening speech at the G20 Summit in China, Xi Jinping clarified - in modern terms - a concept of the old Maoist tradition, whereby each country must take its own specific path to development.

In other words, there are no models to be imported in an already globalized world, possibly after a long and ruinous war for "democracy".

Each country has its own vocation, its system, its shih, namely its natural form, just to use a term of Taoist philosophy.

While recalling the effort - a true "Great Leap Forward", unlike Mao’s autarkic line of the 1950s - which has led China to be the second largest economy, Xi Jinping clarified - always between the lines - another important point.

*According to the CPC Secretary, China will not slow down the pace of its reforms, which means that today it will still tend to strengthen its internal market and its fight against corruption.*

According to the latest data, the Party has sanctioned as many has 300,000 officials this year only.

*Xi Jinping’s fight against corruption wants to convey the message that the Party is resuming the central role it has always played in Communist China and intends to open itself to foreign markets in the best possible way.*

Hence without foreign entrepreneurs’ actions manipulated by the corruption of State’s and Party’s cadres, executives and leaders.

*In addition, Xi Jinping wants to change the old equation of China's development, with a view to increasing competitiveness on an equal footing with the most technologically advanced Western economies.*

In other words, so far China has made social and industrial dumping towards the West's "mature" productions, characterized by low growth rate and average value added.

Thanks to this system, China is overcoming underdevelopment and is "standing up" - to use again Mao Zedong’s terminology.

*Currently the strategy is changing: China will play on equal terms in the global technology and capital market.*

In that way, over the years, China had become what some US economists called "the global sweatshop", thus using for the Chinese factories a terminology reminding us of Charles Dickens’ novels.

According to the CPC Secretary, Xi Jinping, now the Chinese capital will be used, on the one hand, to create a supply-side economy within the country and, on the other hand, to enter the new labour-saving technological sectors, which will be the majority in future productive systems.

Hence, with a view to avoiding the huge Chinese population creating problems of internal political stability which could not be solved, even by force, Xi Jinping is enlarging the Chinese domestic market.

This is the reason why, however, he wants the West to keep on contributing to the upgrade of the Chinese economy.

Globalization is still one of China’s primary goals.

Hence the reference made by Xi Jinping to the renewal of the technological drivers of this global production phase is particularly significant.

And this is the reason why China still requires an open and competitive global market.

*Instead of absorbing "old" productions, as in the days of the "Four Modernizations", China wants to participate in the creation of the new technologies - not only the digital ones - which will characterize the economy in the coming years.*

Initially Deng Xiaoping wanted to compete with Hong Kong in attracting foreign companies.

Now Xi Jinping will participate, on an equal footing with the West, in the definition of the next economic growth cycle.

A cycle in which, incidentally, Italy will participate only marginally.

Its current leadership has not even the faintest idea of the issues raised by Xi Jinping in his speech delivered to the G20 Summit.

*Therefore the Chinese leader’s line is even clearer: in the near future, development will be based on a range of tax, monetary and geopolitical tools, of which Xi Jinping’s China is fully aware.*

Hence it will maintain a flexible fiscal policy and it will support some tax cuts. It will also increase government spending, in contrast to the private capital crisis, while it will maintain and increase the yuan-denominated funds deposited abroad.

*This project is reminiscent of the Eurasian project to be undertaken jointly with Russia.*

*The project consists in replacing the US dollar, or at least being side by side with it, as world exchange currency.*

Again between the lines Xi Jinping conveys the message that globalization is perfect because it helps us to manage the still substantial Chinese overproduction.

In addition, China needs to cut production costs - and here the Western advanced management counts – as well as change its costly and unproductive real estate market.

Finally, China must improve the distribution network efficiency and avoid financial asymmetric shocks.

All this can be read between the lines in the speech delivered by Xi Jinping.

And it is also worth recalling the attention paid by the Chinese CPC Secretary to the "green" economy because it improves the whole economic performance and avoids the parallel health and infrastructure costs and even the cost of adapting the Chinese production to the world market.

According to Xi Jinping, who is still a serious expert of Marxism, it is the new climate of global collaboration which generates the new economic growth drivers, not vice versa.

Without a political decision on the new production formula there will be no transformation of the global economy.

Hence the issue lies in enhancing international cooperation and involving also the marginal countries we must rescue from the jihad or from the long fratricidal wars, as well as particularly ensuring a level playing field in the international system.

China has not appreciated the US policies of vast "ocean" alliance for trade globalization - the TTIP for the European Union and the TTP for Asia, namely the strategies put in place by President Obama.

Types of trade policies that - while speaking of the British economic growth - Carl Schmitt called "thalassocratic".

*In fact, China is both land and ocean.*

It has not accepted the North American TTP because it suspects there is a US desire of leadership in global trade.

*China wants to take advantage of the void of the US global policy - which has been blocked by the EU for the TTIP and has seen only 13 countries advocating the Asian TTP, clearly targeted against China* - and fit in it, also to avoid becoming a regular purchaser of US goods and distorting its monetary policy, which is designed to promote the yuan internationalization.

Furthermore, so far neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump have fully clarified their projects towards China.

*Using again Taoist concepts, the "emptiness" of US policy must be replaced by the "fullness" of the new Chinese geoeconomy.*

Moreover, the current European leaders attended the Huangzou G20 Summit having in mind the next EU Summit of Bratislava, which shall deal with the Brexit issue.

Currently no EU Head of State or Government has the ability, the culture and the strength to evaluate operations longer than six months. Conversely the British Prime Minister, Theresa May, has already had confidential contacts with Xi Jinping and has spoken of a "golden age" in bilateral relations between Great Britain and China.

At the G20 Summit, Prime Minister May also met five other European countries to negotiate the new trade system after the Brexit.

The British Prime Minister wants to ward off the danger of a new US approach vis-à-vis Great Britain and is opening to China with a view to becoming a global hub, not only at financial but also at productive level.

China is expected to invest approximately 40 billion pounds in Great Britain, not to mention the building of the nuclear power plant Hinkley Point C and later of Sizewell in Sussex.

Great Britain wants to use China with a view to positively stepping up Brexit, thus decreasing its economic risks. Great Britain will replace the tired old Europe, with the rich, powerful and vibrant China.

This means applying to the European economy - that Great Britain is leaving - the "Four Is", the four key priorities which provided the slogan of the Huangzou G20 Summit, in the most genuine and authentic Chinese tradition.

The future economy shall be "Innovative, Invigorated, Interconnected and Inclusive".

In other words, China does no longer intend to support global growth only with financial means, as happened during the US-led globalization.

In fact, China founded the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) in December 2015 and aims at including the nations marginalized from the first wave of globalization. The AIIB has already 57 members.

Indeed China aims at a global economy which will implement new value creation mechanisms, especially manufacturing and non-financial ones.

*And here the link between the Russian Federation and China will be strengthened permanently.*

*The starting point will be the joint initiative for the Russian Far East and the Chinese North-East.*

*The G20 spoke about the new Russian-Chinese Eurasia and the Chinese leaders said to the leaders gathered for the Summit that this would lead to "big surprises."*

The systems and organizations on the basis of which the Chinese and Russian project will be implemented are the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and ASEAN, through the Eastern Economic Forum.

Hence, in this regard, we can say that, for Xi Jinping, the G20 held in China was a great success.

@vostok , @Sinopakfriend

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## Nevsky

More action:

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## ahojunk

_There are no permanent allies, just permanent interests.
The US is in decline, it's the world's largest debtor nation._

---------------------
*Hostility to the US unites Moscow and Beijing*
The west must not assume Sino-Russian relations are set in stone






Financial Times, September 14, 2016

The west’s misreading of the Sino-Soviet split in the 1950s and early 1960s was one of the great intelligence failures of the cold war. Had the US realised the extent of animosity between the two powers, it might have found ways to exploit the differences earlier.

Today, the US and its allies are in danger of making the opposite mistake. Most serious western analysts dismiss the possibility that Russia and China could ever form a true alliance. Even many Chinese and Russian experts say historical and cultural mistrust is simply too great for each side.

But the Sino-Russian relationship has already become much closer much faster than most had anticipated. A fully fledged alliance built on shared antagonism towards the US-dominated world order is a possibility, if not yet a reality.

This week, Russian and Chinese ships are holding their largest-ever joint naval exercises — eight days of live-fire island invasion drills in the flashpoint of the South China Sea. That follows apparently co-ordinated ship manoeuvres in June in the East China Sea, near islands at the centre of a bitter dispute between China and Japan.

The display of solidarity comes two months after an international tribunal in The Hague rejected China’s historical claims to most of the region, which conflict with the claims of five other countries. Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president, has been China’s staunchest supporter in the wake of that ruling, which China rejected as illegitimate.

Beijing has traditionally eschewed formal alliances and its only close international partners in recent years have been Pakistan and North Korea. But Xi Jinping, president of China, has adopted a more assertive foreign policy than any of his predecessors in the past four decades and there are signs that China is warming to the idea of formal alliances. Mr Xi and Mr Putin have met 17 times since early 2013 and at working level there has been a surge in bilateral contacts.

Apart from a shared hostility to American “meddling” in their backyards, China and Russia are similar in many other ways, from their authoritarian political systems to their penchant for state capitalism. Mr Xi and Mr Putin have pledged a “rejuvenation” of their nations and have stoked xenophobia with appeals to populist nationalism and by carefully shaping a strongman image with the help of tightly controlled state media.

An alliance carries risks for Russia in particular. Moscow is wary of alienating other potential allies in the region. It remains worried about stark demographic imbalances in the Far East, where densely populated Chinese provinces nestle beside vast uninhabited expanses of Russian territory. Mr Putin also chafes at the suggestion that Russia might be the junior partner.

Meanwhile, in Beijing, memories of the 1960s border war in Manchuria and Moscow’s paternalistic approach to fellow Communist states during the Soviet era still rankle.

But both sides appear increasingly willing to look past their differences and concentrate on what unites them: their animus towards a superpower that they believe is in terminal decline.

Washington and its friends must not repeat their cold war mistakes by assuming the Sino-Russian relationship is set in stone and underplaying the risk of an anti-Western alliance. This should not prevent the US working with Russia and China where appropriate, whether in Syria or on climate change.

But it requires vigilance and reinforces the importance of offering reassurance to the west’s allies in eastern Europe and in Asia.

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## Shotgunner51

Kaptaan said:


> Interesting article. I wonder if you are aware of the writings of Halford Mackinder and his "Hearland Theory"?
> 
> Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History




Yes, his concept is quite well known in China as “World Island" (世界岛). Except for the western perspective, I do agree with most of his analyses.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

*Whoever controls the world island, controls the world....*

And then there was the *Grand Chessboard*
_
Yet_ a new paradigm has created a totally new synthesis of these old emperial thinkings...

OBOR not only stitches together the entire eurasian landmass but it does so without domineering or interference... so who controls the world island now? @TaiShang 

With integeration of EEU into OBOR a new synergy has taken shape that takes into account all of the stakeholders and their vital national interests... this has not happened before.

Pres. Xi's new great power relationship paradigm is at play here... win-win is the only way forward for humanity.

A Community of Prosperity can only pervail when the ground conditions are created for it. OBOR does this rather nicely.

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## TaiShang

Sinopakfriend said:


> *Whoever controls the world island, controls the world....*
> 
> And then there was the *Grand Chessboard*
> _
> Yet_ a new paradigm has created a totally new synthesis of these old emperial thinkings...
> 
> OBOR not only stitches together the entire eurasian landmass but it does so without domineering or interference... so who controls the world island now? @TaiShang
> 
> With integeration of EEU into OBOR a new synergy has taken shape that takes into account all of the stakeholders and their vital national interests... this has not happened before.
> 
> Pres. Xi's new great power relationship paradigm is at play here... win-win is the only way forward for humanity.
> 
> A Community of Prosperity can only pervail when the ground conditions are created for it. OBOR does this rather nicely.



I think it was Brzezinski who called Eurasia the "supercontinent." There is indeed a paradigm shift from Euroatlanticist global geopolitics to a Eurasian one.

Euroatlanticism was/is centered on maritime connections while the land peripheries (Central Asia, Middle East, North Africa) were/are reduced to imperial chessboard.

The new Eurasianism once again connects the land and maritime aspects of global geopolitics, bringing together the entire Eurasian continent through land and sea routes.

We may as well call new-Eurasianism as new-globalism.



Ottoman123 said:


> Keep China out of Eurasianism.



China _is_ the Eurasia. Without China, Eurasia is, as it has been for the past 100 years, a romantic notion only. China is the country that is currently putting lots of meat on the dead bones of this concept, a thought of which made smart analysts like Kissinger and Brzezinski shiver.

Yet, it is happening before our very eyes.

The connections that starts from China and spreads across Eurasia (especially Eurasian North and maritime South) like a web is real and tangible.

Hence, not sure how much you like to keep China out of Eurasia, but, what is happening is that you are being sidelined as China generates facts, ideas and institutions on the ground.

Your country, by the way, falls well outside this new emerging paradigm because of its strong connections with the West (the religio-fascist government's future rests on good ties with the West, after all) and the extremist Gulf.

Your country is a pawn on the geopolitical chessboard without autonomy, a part of the radicalized sectarian potpourri of the Gulf, which elicit no respect or inspiration from the rest of the secular world.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> Mr Xi and Mr Putin have pledged a “rejuvenation” of their nations and have stoked xenophobia with appeals to populist nationalism...



Where is xenopohobia in China or Russia?

If China and Russia are xenophobic, what is the US regime all about where, in election time, the number 1 selling point is xenophobia?

Western press is getting more and more desperate.

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## KediKesenFare3

No, China is explicitly _*not *_a part of Eurasia. Btw, I'm not anti-China but you Chinese guys didn't understand this ideology at this point. We are talking about a Russian concept. It also aims to exclude China from the Russian sphere of influence (= Central and West Asia). 








On the one hand Peking isn't considered as an enemy according to Russian chief ideologists. But on the other hand the Russians don't want to see you in any Central Asian nation (Turkic countries). In essence Eurasianism is a "Slavic-Turkic thing". But of course, the vast majority of Turkic people don't support this Russian grasp. Many are happy that China offers a second option. 

I personally don't support a Turkish membership in the Eurasian Union and I'm against any kind of Turanian dreaming. We have enough problems at home already.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> Where is xenopohobia in China or Russia?
> 
> If China and Russia are xenophobic, what is the US regime all about where, in election time, the number 1 selling point is xenophobia?
> 
> Western press is getting more and more desperate.


Indeed, the western media is getting desperate, they are spinning and hyping.



ahojunk said:


> Mr Xi and Mr Putin have pledged a “rejuvenation” of their nations and have stoked xenophobia with appeals to populist nationalism and *by carefully shaping a strongman image with the help of tightly controlled state media*.


This is the full sentence.

This (unnecessary) sentence was added to denigrate the budding China and Russian's relationship. All press have an agenda to push.

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## TaiShang

Russian officers and soldiers waves to say goodbye to Chinese fleet during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 19, 2016. The closing ceremony of the "Joint Sea 2016" drill was held at the joint director department after Chinese and Russian fleets completed all scheduled subjects of the drill on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province on Monday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Russian officers and soldiers waves to say goodbye to Chinese fleet during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 19, 2016. The closing ceremony of the "Joint Sea 2016" drill was held at the joint director department after Chinese and Russian fleets completed all scheduled subjects of the drill on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province on Monday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese officers and soldiers waves to say goodbye to Russian fleet during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 19, 2016. The closing ceremony of the "Joint Sea 2016" drill was held at the joint director department after Chinese and Russian fleets completed all scheduled subjects of the drill on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province on Monday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese officers and soldiers waves to say goodbye to Russian fleet during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 19, 2016. The closing ceremony of the "Joint Sea 2016" drill was held at the joint director department after Chinese and Russian fleets completed all scheduled subjects of the drill on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province on Monday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese officers and soldiers waves to say goodbye to Russian fleet during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 19, 2016. The closing ceremony of the "Joint Sea 2016" drill was held at the joint director department after Chinese and Russian fleets completed all scheduled subjects of the drill on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province on Monday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" fires secondary guns during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Guangzhou" fires depth charge rockets during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese and Russian fleets fire main guns during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 18, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted weapon use on a sea area east of Zhanjiang in south China's Guangdong Province during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Sunday. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)

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## TaiShang

Chinese navy's helicopter sends a rescuer to the drowning crew of a merchant ship during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 16, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted joint operation exercise off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Friday. The drill, starting on Sept. 12, will run until Sept. 19, consisting of three phases: preparation at port, exercise at sea and summary. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Huangshan" sends marines to search a suspicious ship during a China-Russia naval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 16, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted joint operation exercise off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea during the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Friday. The drill, starting on Sept. 12, will run until Sept. 19, consisting of three phases: preparation at port, exercise at sea and summary. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese frigate "Huangshan" sends marines to search a suspicious ship during a China-Russianaval joint drill at sea off south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 16, 2016. Chinese and Russian fleets conducted joint operation exercise off Guangdong Province in the South China Seaduring the "Joint Sea 2016" drill on Friday. The drill, starting on Sept. 12, will run until Sept. 19, consisting of three phases: preparation at port, exercise at sea and summary. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese marines take part in a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 14, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. The drill will run until Sept. 19, featuring navy surface ships, submarines, fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, marines and amphibious armored equipment. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)





Chinese and Russian marines hug during a joint naval drill in Zhanjiang, south China's Guangdong Province, Sept. 14, 2016. China and Russia started "Joint Sea 2016" drill off Guangdong Province in the South China Sea on Tuesday. The drill will run until Sept. 19, featuring navy surface ships, submarines, fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, marines and amphibious armored equipment. (Xinhua/Zha Chunming)

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## TaiShang

KediKesenFare said:


> No, China is explicitly _*not *_a part of Eurasia. Btw, I'm not anti-China but you Chinese guys didn't understand this ideology at this point. We are talking about a Russian concept. It also aims to exclude China from the Russian sphere of influence (= Central and West Asia).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the one hand Peking isn't considered as an enemy according to Russian chief ideologists. But on the other hand the Russians don't want to see you in any Central Asian nation (Turkic countries). In essence Eurasianism is a "Slavic-Turkic thing". But of course, the vast majority of Turkic people don't support this Russian grasp. Many are happy that China offers a second option.
> 
> I personally don't support a Turkish membership in the Eurasian Union and I'm against any kind of Turanian dreaming. We have enough problems at home already.



China is Eurasia. Without China, Eurasianism is dead as a cold stone. One needs economic, political and industrial capability to initiate a discourse as wide as Eurasianism. Currently, only China is capable of doing that. Hence the reason the AIIB is shooting for 100+ membership.

Historical Eurasianism is a dream. It is a romantic ideology born in the early 1900s in Russia as a pan-Slavic notion. The idea was mostly based on Russia's territorial unity and was exclusivist.

China-led Eurasianism is called the new-Eurasianism for this reason. For its insignia is one of integration through extensive lines of communication and trade across Eurasian heartland, with China acting as the ideational and material center of it.

In that case, China-led Eurasianism is totally disconnected from the historical Eurasianism. That's the reason why it is based on the ancient Silk Road idea.

Russia is the most strategic component of the whole OBOR concept because, without Russia, China is geographically disconnected from the safest route to Western Europe. That's the reason China has been extremely active to get Moscow involved at every level.

In fact, the first institutional cooperation was formed with Russia with the agreement between Russia-led EEU and China's OBOR. The SCO, on the other hand, completes the security aspect. Central Asian Russophone republics are part and parcel of this plan.

China-Russia relations is not simply on paper or in theory, it is fully institutionalized.

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## TaiShang

*China-Russia naval drill ends with island-seizing mission*
*September 20, 2016, Xinhua*





The Chinese and Russian navies stage a mission to seize an island on Sunday, marking the end of the two countries' joint drill this year.[Photo by GAN JUN/CHINA DAILY]

*The Chinese and Russian navies staged a mission to seize an island on Sunday as part of an eight-day exercise in the South China Sea.*

As the key element of the annual drill, the navies dispatched warships, marine forces, helicopters and amphibious armored equipment for the mission.

*The exercise demonstrated the Chinese and Russian navies' capacities in command management, telecommunications coordination, and intelligence and information sharing, said Senior Captain Li Xiangdong, who commanded the Chinese warships.*

The mission marked the end of the China-Russia Joint Sea 2016 drill, which started on Sept 12 in eastern waters off Zhanjiang, the southernmost city in Guangdong province and the base of the Nanhai Fleet. A closing ceremony was to be held on Monday.

Compared with previous years, the 2016 drill focused more on confrontational capacity such as surface warships, submarines and land-based defenses, Li said, adding that the use of an advanced command system made communication between the two navies smoother.

*It was also the first time the China-Russia joint exercise had been held in the South China Sea.*

Rear Admiral Yu Manjiang, vice-commander of the Nanhai Fleet and commander of the joint exercise, said *the sea was a natural choice for the drill as the two countries have already held exercises in China's other waters.*

"Some people and countries are pointing fingers at this (joint drill), but this is not necessary at all," he said, adding that it is an annual drill that does not target a third party.

A. Maxim, a lieutenant captain with the Russian navy's marine force, said the exercise had promoted mutual understanding between the two navies.

*Ten Chinese ships－destroyers, frigates, landing ships, supply ships and submarines－took part in the drill as well as 11 fixed-wing aircraft, eight helicopters and 160 marines.*

Also involved were Russia's large anti-submarine ships Admiral Tributs and Admiral Vinogradov, the large amphibious ship Peresvet, the sea towboat Alatau and the tanker Pechenga.

Captain Sun Hao, who was in charge of the island-seizing mission, said the marine forces of both sides could understand each other despite the language barrier.

*"I noticed that during the exercise that soldiers from the two countries could communicate with body language, simple English and even eye contact," he said.*

Roman Kosarev, a journalist for Russia Today who covered the drill, agreed with Sun and added: "Increasingly, language has not been a problem."



















@kecho

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## yusheng



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## Osman Pamukoglu

TaiShang said:


> China is Eurasia. Without China, Eurasianism is dead as a cold stone. One needs economic, political and industrial capability to initiate a discourse as wide as Eurasianism. Currently, only China is capable of doing that. Hence the reason the AIIB is shooting for 100+ membership.
> 
> Historical Eurasianism is a dream. It is a romantic ideology born in the early 1900s in Russia as a pan-Slavic notion. The idea was mostly based on Russia's territorial unity and was exclusivist.
> 
> China-led Eurasianism is called the new-Eurasianism for this reason. For its insignia is one of integration through extensive lines of communication and trade across Eurasian heartland, with China acting as the ideational and material center of it.
> 
> In that case, China-led Eurasianism is totally disconnected from the historical Eurasianism. That's the reason why it is based on the ancient Silk Road idea.
> 
> Russia is the most strategic component of the whole OBOR concept because, without Russia, China is geographically disconnected from the safest route to Western Europe. That's the reason China has been extremely active to get Moscow involved at every level.
> 
> In fact, the first institutional cooperation was formed with Russia with the agreement between Russia-led EEU and China's OBOR. The SCO, on the other hand, completes the security aspect. Central Asian Russophone republics are part and parcel of this plan.
> 
> China-Russia relations is not simply on paper or in theory, it is fully institutionalized.


Eurasia is just Slavo-Turkic ...Not Chinese.


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## Attila the Hun

KediKesenFare said:


> No, China is explicitly _*not *_a part of Eurasia. Btw, I'm not anti-China but you Chinese guys didn't understand this ideology at this point. We are talking about a Russian concept. It also aims to exclude China from the Russian sphere of influence (= Central and West Asia).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the one hand Peking isn't considered as an enemy according to Russian chief ideologists. But on the other hand the Russians don't want to see you in any Central Asian nation (Turkic countries). In essence Eurasianism is a "Slavic-Turkic thing". But of course, the vast majority of Turkic people don't support this Russian grasp. Many are happy that China offers a second option.
> 
> I personally don't support a Turkish membership in the Eurasian Union and I'm against any kind of Turanian dreaming. We have enough problems at home already.


It really is just a Slav and Turk thing. No clue what these Chinese are trying to achieve lol.


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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Many turks here emphasizes that China is not a a part of eurasia.They are right,if the so-called "eurasia" is just a package of the soviet's sphere of influence.Like this picture .LOL,it shows us that why the turkey tried its best to join the NATO.
Well,China is now constructing the "Asiaeuro",not "Eurasia".
Whether China is a part of eurasia or not, China is here.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

`Without a Centre no Circle can not be drawn....centre is the essence of all circles....

OBOR is the circle both on land and on sea...

A circle of new paradigm... a circle of Community of Prosperity. 

Without China no -ism can sustain itself in today's world.

What is critical in our discourse in this very relevant thread is not to fall into rising China non-starter as it will happen here by our 'friends'. 

What is essential to visit the subject of Recovery of China both as Civilisation and as economy. China is in recovery mode since the incepction of PRC... this process of recovery will continue for coming 3 decades.

So the question arises: What role eurasia plays in the recovery of China and by default Chinese Axis?
For if China recovers so will the Sino Friends.

Very interesting thread!

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## Osman Pamukoglu

TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> View attachment 336109
> Many turks here emphasizes that China is not a a part of eurasia.They are right,if the so-called "eurasia" is just a package of the soviet's sphere of influence.Like this picture .LOL,it shows us that why the turkey tried its best to join the NATO.
> Well,China is now constructing the "Asiaeuro",not "Eurasia".
> Whether China is a part of eurasia or not, China is here.


Yes, China is here, just not in Eurasia.


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## T-123456

Shotgunner51 said:


> *What is Eurasianism?*
> _*
> Published on September 18th, 2016
> by Graham E. Fuller*_
> 
> View attachment 335711
> 
> _Photo: Meeting of Eurasian Economic Council._​You might recall the term “Eurasia” from high school geography classes. The term isn’t used much any more in political discussions in the West, but it should be. That is where the most serious geopolitical action is going to be taking place in the world as we move deeper into the 21st century. The US, focused so intently on “containment” of Russia, ISIS, and China will be missing the bigger Eurasian strategic picture.
> 
> Eurasia is the greatest landmass of the world, embracing Europe and all of Asia—some of the oldest and greatest centers of human civilization.
> 
> *So what is Eurasianism?* It has meant different things at different periods. A century ago, the Kissingers of the time spun theories about a deep and inevitable strategic clash between sea-borne power (UK/US) and continental/land-based powers (Germany, Russia.) “Eurasia” then meant mostly Europe and western Russia. Indeed, what need was there to talk then about Asia itself, most of Asia was underdeveloped and lay under the control of the British Empire (India) or the French (Indo-China) and had no independent will. Japan was the only real “Asian power”—that ironically developed its own imperial designs, and thus came to clash with American imperial power in the Pacific.
> 
> Today of course all that is different. Eurasia increasingly means “Asia” in which the “Euro” part figures modestly. Furthermore, China has now become the center of Eurasia as the world’s largest economy. Not surprisingly, China (like the Muslim world) projects a decidedly “anti-imperial” bent based on what it sees as its humiliation at the hands of the West and Japan during its two-hundred year eclipse—during one of its dynastic down-cycles. But China is very much back now into a classic “up-cycle” mode of power and influence again and is determined to project its weight and influence. India too now is now a rapidly developing power with regional reach. And Japan, while quiescent, still represents formidable economic power, perhaps to be augmented by greater military regional reach.
> 
> The significance of the term “Eurasian” has changed a good deal, but it still suggests strategic rivalry. At a time when the US formally declares its intent to militarily dominate the world (“full spectrum dominance” was the official Pentagon doctrine in 2000) the concept of Eurasianism is responding with vigor. And not just in China, but in its new significance for countries like Russia, Iran, even Turkey. It suggests a sense of the eclipse of dominant western power in the face of new Asian power.
> 
> It’s not all just about military and money. It’s also cultural. Russian culture has for two centuries maintained a lively debate about whether Russia belongs to the West, or embodies a distinctly Eurasian (yevraziiskaya) culture that is separate from the West. Eurasianists represent a significant force within Russian strategic and military thinking (although Putin, interestingly, does not fully embrace this world-view.)
> 
> The idea is a vague but culturally important one; it grapples with Russian identity. It speaks of a Slavic culture but with deep Eurasian roots even in an old Turkic and Tatar past. Remember that historically it is the modern West that torched Russia twice: witness the invasions of Napoleon and Hitler up to the gates of Moscow. Nato today probes ever more deeply all around the Russian periphery. The Eurasianists are suspicious of, if not hostile to, the West as a permanent threat to “Holy Mother Russia.” “Eurasianism” will always lurk just beneath the surface in the Russian strategic world-view.
> 
> That is what Russia’s new Eurasian Economic Union is all about, a goal to at least economically unite Belarus, the Central Asian states and others into a greater Eurasian economic whole. (Oil-rich Kazakstan was actually the author of the concept; it will seek to maintain ties with the West; but look at it its place on a world map to see where Kazakstan’s real long-term options lie. Russia may not now be the best economic star to tie one’s future to, but it is just one of many Eurasian vehicles out there and they are not mutually exclusive. Options bring greater security.
> 
> China is moving in stunningly ambitious directions in creating the new _Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank_ (that 57 states have signed onto including most European states, Canada and Australia—but conspicuously without Japan so far, or the US.) This creates a new Eurasian-focused central banking instrument with strong Chinese influence. China is also projecting massive new transportation networks (the Silk Road Economic Belt and the Maritime Silk Road —“One Belt One Road”) across Eurasia to China linking China to Europe, the Middle East, Central and South Asia, and the Far East by rail, road, and sea. China’s “Eurasian strategy” is already a burgeoning reality. Yes, suspicions and rivalries exist between Russia and China and India and Japan. But the strong economic and developmental thrust of these proposals differ markedly from the American more “security” focused organization with its worrisome military implications.
> 
> Not only has Washington fought these Chinese and Eurasian initiatives unsuccessfully, but it is US policies in particular—that identify both Russia and China as the presumptive enemy—that have helped bring Russia and China together on many issues, linked now by shared distrust of US global military ambitions.
> 
> Japan, incidentally, before World War II had its own doctrine of “Eurasianism” —an effort to identify with and stir up Asian peoples and territories against western colonial domination; this strategy could have been quite effective had it not been accompanied by Japan’s own brutal military invasions of East Asian countries, destroying the credibility of the Japanese _“Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere”_. Today Japan hasn’t moved its location; it will still have to deal with the reality of Chinese power in the East. And what Japanese leader would seriously pursue a long range policy of hostility to China in support of a US Pacific strategy that is inherently designed to bottle up China? Especially when China and Japan are huge mutual trading and investment partners?
> 
> Iran is keenly interested in balancing against geopolitical pressures from the US and seeks membership in these Russian and Chinese economic development institutions. Iran is a natural “Eurasian “ and “Silk Road” power.
> 
> Turkey has gotten into the Eurasian game, again. Going back to the early days of Erdogan’s AK Party foreign policy— in the vision of then foreign minister Davutoglu—Turkey was no longer limited to being a western power, but also proclaimed its geopolitical interests (nearly a hundred years after the fall of the Ottoman Empire) in the Middle East, and indeed, Eurasia. (After all, the Turks originally come from Eurasia, having migrated west from Lake Baikal a thousand years ago.) That means serious ties with Russia, combined with deep ethnic, cultural and historical ties with Central Asia, and with China. Turkey (like Iran and Pakistan) seeks to be part of these Russian and Chinese networks. And, among some Turkish nationalist politicians and military officers (including many secular Kemalists) there is strong “Eurasianist” leaning to expand Turkey’s geopolitical options to explore strategic and cultural ties with Eurasia. It also reflects an expression of distrust of western and US efforts to dominate the region.
> 
> For Turkey this is not an either/or issue. It can seek to be part of Europe (including Nato) but will not relinquish the broad geostrategic alternative options to the East, with its ever greater economic clout, and roads and rails to link it.
> 
> In short, the new Eurasianism is no longer about nineteenth century land and sea power. It is an acknowledgment that the era of western (and especially US) global dominance is over. Washington can no longer command (or afford) a longer-term bid to dominate Eurasia. In economic terms no state in the region, including Turkey, would be foolish enough to turn its back on this rising “Eurasian” potential that also offers strategic balance and economic options.
> 
> There are, of course, huge fault-lines across Eurasia—ethnic, economic, strategic, and some degree of rivalry. But the more Washington attempts to contain or throttle Eurasianism as a genuine rising force, the greater will be the determination of states to become part of this rising Eurasian world, even while not rejecting the West.
> 
> All countries like to have alternatives. They don’t like to lie beholden to a single global power that tries to call the shots. America’s narrative of what the global order is all about is no longer accepted globally. Furthermore it is no longer realistic. It would seem short-sighted for Washington to continue focus upon expanding military alliances while most of the rest of the world is looking to greater prosperity and rising regional clout. (China’s military expenditures are about one quarter of US spending.)
> 
> 
> 
> _*Graham E. Fuller* is a former senior CIA official, author of numerous books on the Muslim World; his latest book is “Breaking Faith: A novel of espionage and an American’s crisis of conscience in Pakistan.” (Amazon, Kindle)._
> 
> Source: http://lobelog.com/what-is-eurasianism/


Some people dont get the term ''Eurasianism'',thats why they post these dumb comments.
They forget that there is the question of soft power(economic,financial) which is more important then military power which means that without China,there cant be Eurasianism.
However,the dumb comment from the known troll about my country is also ridiculous because my country is seen as one of the pilars of Eurasianism.

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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Osman Pamukoglu said:


> Yes, China is here, just not in Eurasia.


Never mind,we don't want to disturb your warm family(Slav and turk,good friends forever).
My compatriots just confused “asiaeuro” with "eurasia".

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## Attila the Hun

TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> Never mind,we don't want to disturb your warm family(Slav and turk,good friends forever).
> My compatriots just confused “asiaeuro” with "eurasia".


Where did I say Slavs and Turks are friends? I am just saying only Slavs and Turks are Eurasian.


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## TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics

Please accept my benediction.

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## cochine

TaiShang said:


> China-Russia naval drill ends with *island-seizing* mission



I think this " island-seizing " maneuver is related to Taiwan. Russian will not join with China in future conflict Sino-Vietnam in East Sea of Vietnam. 

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/ma...gal-path-to-peace--stability-in-east-sea.html

Russian experts talk legal path to peace, stability in East Sea
_Leading Russian experts and researchers on Asia-Pacific discussed how a legal path helps secure to peace and stability in the East Sea at a round-table workshop in Moscow on September 8._



_




_

They agreed that the ruling issued by the Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) in The Hague, the Netherlands on July 12, confirms China’s sovereignty declaration in the East Sea has no legal foundation.

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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> _Leading Russian experts and researchers on Asia-Pacific discussed how a legal path helps secure to peace and stability in the East Sea at a round-table workshop in Moscow on September 8._



Leading Russian experts and researchers' opinions are just opinions, my friend. What matters is the tangible actions on the ground. Island-seizing might be applicable in any situation that involves island-seizing.

Nonetheless, I view the joint drills not necessarily anti-Vietnam or Taiwan province, because these problems by themselves are not unsolvable by China's own efforts alone. China does not need Russian active assistance to take back the islands/provinces that historically it owns.

The drills are a direct message to the US, which is the only concern in China's calculations. If the US has an alliance in the SCS and ECS, there you go, China does his own security network.

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## TaiShang

Osman Pamukoglu said:


> Eurasia is just Slavo-Turkic ...Not Chinese.



Eurasianism as an ideology is essentially a pan-Slavic notion.

Read up if you have access to one of academic databases:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967067X97000020

--Quote-- "Eurasianism is a quasi-political and intellectual movement. Its representatives state that Russia is a unique blend of Slavic and non-Slavic cultures and ethnic groups. Eurasianists also emphasize the corporate nature of the Russian state which makes it quite different from the West. Eurasianism emerged in the 1920s as an anti-Bolshevik movement. Yet, through its evolution, Eurasianism has become closer and closer to the Soviet brand of Marxism. In its blending of Marxism with nationalism, Eurasianism was one of the precursors to the present-day ideology of post-Soviet Russia.“ -- End of quote --



TheTheoryOfMilitaryLogistics said:


> Many turks here emphasizes that China is not a a part of eurasia.They are right,if the so-called "eurasia" is just a package of the soviet's sphere of influence.Like this picture .LOL,it shows us that why the turkey tried its best to join the NATO.
> Well,China is now constructing the "Asiaeuro",not "Eurasia".
> Whether China is a part of eurasia or not, China is here.



That's an interesting argument. For the sake of conceptual convenience, I tend to use Eurasianism, but, I also add "new" to underline the distinctness of the idea from the Soviet-era romantic Eurasianism.

Turkey as a polity in present day is not even Central Asian (technically as well as politically); certainly, it is inside the Eurasian landmass. But, neither in Soviet-era Eurasianist models, nor present time China-led Eurasian model, Turkey did not/does not factor in as a meaningful component.

The reality is that Turkey was until recently a staunch ally in the Western camp, forming the moderate Green Belt against the Soviet-China Communist Bloc. Over the past decade, Turkey devolved from being a Euro-West Asian country to a sectarian Gulf-Middle Eastern country with security ties with the West.

China is definitely the only true Eurasian country both politically and economically, but not ideologically. China's ideology is for China only. New Eurasianism, for that matter, is a technocratic concept, but not a historico-ideological sentimental one.



T-123456 said:


> However,the dumb comment from the known troll about my country is also ridiculous because my country is seen as one of the pilars of Eurasianism.



Your country is not a pillar of Eurasia economically and politically, no body can empirically verify that. You are ideologically/culturally Middle Eastern-Gulf, and politically European. All of your trade figures, political-security attachments point to that direction. Just because one day one politician says we are Eurasian does not make you Eurasian.

Turkey is irrelevant in modern (new) E

You have made no meaningful contribution to Eurasianism (I do not consider Turan-ideology as Eurasianism just as I do not consider pan-Slavism as Eurasianism), both epistemologically and ontologically. Russia did make enormous contribution in terms of creating a literature which I have been using extensively in my studies. But I have yet to find a credible literature of readings from Turkey.

China, on the other hand, is both economically, and increasingly, politically, a Eurasian country (and, certainly, more than that). This Eurasianism is both land and maritime connected. It is institutionalized. It has the required economic, political and institutional components. Turkey appears very weakly in all of these components as of now. China does simply not prioritize Turkey.

Turan romanticism might be meaningful there, but here it is unknown and has no practical impact. I guess no body is interested what some lofty ideas are being developed in nationalist-romanticist circles in Turkey. The reality is, Turkey has been (unfortunately) sidelined from new-Eurasian development. If it is lucky, it can join the remotest circle, but will hardly be allowed the inside circles.

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## usernameless

Attila the Hun said:


> Uzbeks, Kazaks, Turkmens, Kirghiz , Turks are all culturally Middle Eastern in other words MUSLIM. and not Eurasian??
> Turanians are not Eurasian... because, they don't get on with the ******, who are not even Eurasian .
> You Chinese are just Asian. get over it already.


Why are you insulting though? Post constructive messages instead of trolling as the Turkish (or any) community on PDF is better off without trolls.
@ahojunk @Shotgunner51

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## Nevsky



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## yusheng



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## yusheng



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## yusheng



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## TaiShang

*I Scream, You Scream, China Screams for Putin’s Ice-Cream*

_Chinese businessmen, enthusiastic over Vladimir Putin’s gift to President Xi of a box of ice-cream, have started using the image of the Russian leader in their advertising for items produced in Russia

Olga Samofalova _

_Originally appeared__ at _*Vzglyad – Russian online magazine*_. Translated by Julia Rakhmetova _





A couple of weeks ago, President Vladimir Putin presented Xi Jinping with a whole box of Russian ice-cream during the G20 summit in Hangzhou. Xi was delighted, saying that he had come to love Russian ice-cream during his many visits to Moscow.

*“Every time I come to Russia, I always bring Russian ice-cream home with me. Your cream is better, and that’s why it tastes so good,” the Chinese President said.*

Russian ice-cream became a popular treat in China in the last few years. And after such a PR campaign, it has an even greater chance to conquer the Chinese market of almost 1.4 billion consumers.

Chinese ice-cream salesmen continued the marketing launched by Putin, with an unusual advertisement. *An image of the Russian leader eating an ice-cream cone appeared on mini-trucks in the Chinese region of Heihe, bordering with the Russian city of Blagoveshchensk, according to the newspaper .*

*The image of Putin is quite popular even without the ice-cream story, and the Chinese started use it a long time ago to advertise their goods.* For example, a huge banner at the chocolate shop in Harbin is decorated with the portrait of the Russian leader. According to the newspaper Novye Izvestia, the portrait of Putin appears on real estate advertising in some places.

The Chinese are not the first to come up with the idea of using Putin images for commercial purposes. It’s been done in the West and in Russia itself. For example, at a Paris fashion week, the German fashion house Talbot Runhof presented a collection of T-shirts depicting the Russian President against a background of pictures of four world fashion centers: Paris, New-York, London and Milan.

The Italian company Caviar produced a limited edition of gold cases for iPhones decorated with Russia’s coat of arms, Putin’s portrait and quotes from the Russian anthem.

*After the reunification with Crimea, the image of Putin began even more popular*: lots of souvenir gifts with images of Putin, his autograph and quotes have appeared on clothing, dishes and phone covers - although the president disapproves o his image being used for commercial purposes, according to his spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

@vostok 

_So, did President Putin just add another concept to the literature: Ice cream diplomacy?_

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## cochine

TaiShang said:


> Leading Russian experts and researchers' opinions are just opinions, my friend. What matters is the tangible actions on the ground. Island-seizing might be applicable in any situation that involves island-seizing.
> 
> Nonetheless, I view the joint drills not necessarily anti-Vietnam or Taiwan province, because these problems by themselves are not unsolvable by China's own efforts alone. China does not need Russian active assistance to take back the islands/provinces that historically it owns.
> 
> The drills are a direct message to the US, which is the only concern in China's calculations. If the US has an alliance in the SCS and ECS, there you go, China does his own security network.



I like this picture.

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## ahojunk

_The financial numbers are staggering!_

--------
China's investment in Belt and Road countries up 38.6 pct
(Xinhua) 16:36, September 22, 2016


BEIJING, Sept. 22 (Xinhua) -- China's investment in Belt and Road Initiative countries *soared 38.6 percent year on year as the country's outbound direct investment (ODI)* reached a record high in 2015, official data showed Thursday.

Investment in Belt and Road countries stood at 18.93 billion U.S. dollars and represented 13 percent of the country's ODI last year, according to Zhang Xiangchen, deputy international trade representative with China's Ministry of Commerce (MOC).

Zhang told reporters at a news conference that Belt and Road investment is essential to the fast development of China's ODI.

China's ODI hit an all-time high of 145.67 billion U.S. dollars in 2015, exceeding the 135.6 billion in foreign direct investment it received, making it a net capital exporter for the first time, Zhang said.

It is the world's second-largest source of outbound investment, exceeded only by the United States, Zhang said.

The initiative, proposed by President Xi Jinpingin 2013, refers to the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road -- a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes.

As of July, *Chinese enterprises had established 52 economic cooperation zones in the countries while paying 900 million dollars in taxes and creating nearly 70,000 local jobs*.

The MOC said earlier the Belt and Road Initiative had boosted business cooperation between Chinese and foreign firms. During the *first eight months of 2016, nearly 4,000 engineering contracts were signed by Chinese companies in 61 countries along the routes, with combined contract value of 69.82 billion U.S. dollars*.

China needs to fully take advantage of the international market and resources as its economy and companies transform, said Zhang, adding that Chinese firms are keen to become active players in global innovation, manufacturing and the market.

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## Shotgunner51

Gibbs said:


> *Sri Lanka becomes first South Asian participant at powerful Sino-ASEAN expo*
> 
> 
> 15 Chinese and ASEAN leaders at Nanning’s CAEXPO 13
> Sri Lanka honoured, pleased about China’s interest in Sri Lanka: Rishad
> Says pleased of China’s interest in Sri Lanka
> ASEAN bloc is future destiny of China
> 2015 China-SL trade tops $ 4 b
> Sri Lanka received a rare honour on 11 September of being the third economy ever in the world and the first South Asian economy to join the dominant China-ASEAN bloc’s high profile annual trade and investment event in Nanning, the modern capital of Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region, China.
> 
> “Under the One Belt, One Road framework, China’s ‘Go Global Strategy’ emphasised a greater importance to enhance trade, investment and economic cooperation with Sri Lanka,” said Minister of Industry and Commerce Rishad Bathiudeen, addressing the launch event of CAEXPO 13 at the Osmanthus Hall of Nanning International Convention & Exhibition Centre in Nanning.
> 
> Sri Lanka was among the 15 Chinese and ASEAN high profile leaders joining the CAEXPO 13. The opening session widely featured aspects of China-ASEAN FTA, China’s 21st Century Maritime Silk Road plans, as well as aspects of ‘China-ASEAN Advanced Technology Cooperation’ including Beidou satellite navigation, aerospace technology, high-speed modern railway, and unmanned auto manufacturing.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Head of Mission of Consulate General of Sri Lanka in Guangzhou, Consul General Shanika Dissanayake joins Minister Rishard Bathiudeen at the Nanning opening session*
> 
> 
> More importantly the large scale multi-country CAEXPO event also gave a glimpse of the future destiny and an eye-opener as to what lies ahead for the China-ASEAN bloc.
> 
> Launching China’s ASEAN connectivity initiative, leaders of China and 10 ASEAN countries also signed their names on the tickets for high-speed trains running between China and ASEAN, which is the proposed China-ASEAN direct connectivity strategy. Representing China, the event was attended by Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli.
> 
> According to CAEXPO Secretariat, ‘CAEXPO Special Guest Country’ mechanism invites a country outside of the China-ASEAN region to join the CAEXPO as a Guest and is considered to be a strategic way for China to open to the (rest of) the globe.
> 
> *So far only Australia and South Korea had been invited by China as CAEXPO Special Guest Countries and with its 11 September presence at the CAEXPO grand opening, Sri Lanka become the third country ever in the world and the first South Asian nation to be a CAEXPO Special Guest Country.*
> 
> “Sri Lanka is honoured to join CAEXPO as a Special Guest Country and I thank the people of China for this invitation,” said Bathiudeen. “We welcome this initiative and we are here to invite Chinese business enterprises to explore more opportunities of economic cooperation and trade development in Sri Lanka. I believe that this Forum could play a pivotal role in strengthening existing relations between China and Sri Lanka.
> 
> “The ‘Social Market Economic Model’ as envisioned by the new Unity Government of Sri Lanka will propel and nuance the dynamics of Sri Lanka’s next stage of the economic development trajectory. These initiatives and consistency in our economic and trade liberalisation policies have brought Sri Lanka much closer with the global partners and in particular with China as a key development partner. Sri Lanka is placed at 68th rank in the Global Competitiveness Index 2015-2016 and the Sri Lankan Government has ambitious plans, to improve and advance this position it further.”
> 
> He noted that Sri Lanka’s strategic location as a connecting point of sea and air transport between east and west had been complimentary to the expansion in the trade with the world, pointing out that the Free Trade Agreements that Sri Lanka entered into with India and Pakistan have already become the key gateway platform for manufacturers and investors in Sri Lanka in accessing a sub-regional market with over 1.6 billion people.
> 
> “I invite Chinese and ASEAN investors to explore the opportunities presented by these key agreements, particularly into the diverse basket of value-added exports for which Sri Lanka obtains duty-free market access in the South Asia region. Sri Lanka’s strategic location, skilled labour force, business infrastructure, common law based legal system, highly-modernised sea port operations, recreational facilities and living standards have provided many opportunities for foreign investments. Sri Lanka is progressing towards becoming Asia’s hub for businesses, naval operations, commercial activities, knowledge based industries, aviation and energy developments. I am pleased that China continues to show interest in Sri Lanka as a dynamic and exciting investment destination, and would like to encourage further partnerships in this direction.”
> 
> Bathiudeen met Senior Official of Guangzhou Autonomous Province Liu Xin Wen on the sidelines. He was welcomed by awaiting Lankan exhibitors at Nanning Convention Centre for his soft-launch of CAEXPO Sri Lanka Pavilion and exports portfolio and he was interviewed by the Guanxi TV channel. He also addressed the afternoon Sri Lanka Investment Promotion Seminar organised by the Department of Commerce for keen Chinese investors.
> 
> The Sri Lankan official in China facilitating Bathiudeen’s delegation to CAEXPO13, Consul General Shanika Dissanayake (Head of Mission of Consulate General of Sri Lanka in Guangzhou who clinched the Special Guest Country status for Sri Lanka) and Bathiudeen’s Senior Advisor Himali Jinadasa also joined him at the Nanning opening session where Fortune 500 companies such as China Railway Engineering Corporation, China Railway Construction Corporation and Aluminium Corporation of China also were present.
> 
> Total bilateral trade between China and Sri Lanka topped $ 4 billion in 2015, with a steady growth of 14% from 2014’s $ 3.5 billion.
> 
> - See more at: http://www.ft.lk/article/567457/Sri...powerful-Sino-ASEAN-expo#sthash.s8jp5Q5W.dpuf




Good news! I remember last year I said that SL is a maritime economy that has more in synergy with China-ASEAN economic belt, now that SL being invited as Special Guest to CAEXPO!

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## cochine

*Vietnam calls for peace maintenance as Russia joins China in military drill in S.China Sea*

By Viet Anh September 22, 2016 | 05:42 pm GMT+7
*The week-long joint exercise came shortly after Putin spoke in support for China’s stance in the waters.*
Vietnam’s foreign spokesman has called for peace maintenance in the region as China and Russia just conducted the first joint military exercise in the East Sea, internationally known as the South China Sea.

The spokesman said at a press briefing Thursday that all activities including military operations in the East Sea need to follow international regulations, particularly the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

“Vietnam hopes that all countries contribute positively to the maintenance of peace and stability, and ensure air and maritime safety and security in the East Sea as well as the whole Asia-Pacific region,” Binh said.

China and Russia on Monday just wrapped up their first week-long military exercise off Guangdong.

The activity came after Russian President Vladimir Putin showed support for Beijing’s position in the East Sea during talks early this month.

The two leaders are said to have shared opinions that it is inappropriate for a third party to meddle in other countries’ affairs, the argument Beijing has used against U.S. involvement in East Sea territorial disputes.

An international tribune in the Hague on July 12 ruled that Beijing has no legal basis to claim historic rights to the East Sea resources. The ruling came after the Philippines filed a case in January 2013 accusing Beijing of violating the UNCLOS.

http://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/vi...in-military-drill-in-s-china-sea-3472572.html


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## powastick

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/stor...ayas-kayo-i-ll-deal-with-china-russia-instead

*Duterte responds: Lumayas kayo, I'll deal with China, Russia instead*

*Published *September 22, 2016 8:26pm
By TRISHA MACAS, GMA News







*President Rodrigo Duterte again lashed out at critics, saying he doesn't believe claims that his tough talk is scaring off investors, even as he said he's ready to deal with China and Russia instead.*

"Do not keep complaining about my mouth because my mouth is not the problem. It cannot bring down a country," said Duterte in a speech in Cagayan De Oro on Thursday.

"Ang issue dito hindi ang bunganga ko. And they are saying the ratings sa business, sa economy. Eh 'di so be it. Lumayas kayo. Then we can start on our own.* I can go to China. I can go to Russia. I had a talk with them. They are waiting for me.* So what the hell."

Credit rating agency Standard & Poor's (S&P) Global Ratings earlier said an upgrade for the Philippines was unlikely because of investor concern over the political climate.

"(I)nternational investors may be getting worried about potential diplomatic complications and short-term law and order issues on the ground," S&P said in the September 2016 issue of Asia-Pacific Economic Snapshots.

Duterte has drawn international headlines because of his profanity-laced tirades that have been directed at critics from the United Nations, the European Union, and the United States.

In another speech earlier in the day, Duterte said he didn't care about credit ratings.

"Sabihin nitong mga... na BB plus credit, wala akong pakialam sa inyo," he said in Misamis Oriental.

*Fastest growing economy*

In an earlier press conference, Palace officials were much more diplomatic.

"We welcome S&P’s decisions as it gives government greater resolve to make our economy growth robust, sustainable and inclusive. The fundamentals of the economy are solid and strong," Presidential Communications Secretary Martin Andanar said.

"We are the fastest growing economy in the second quarter of 2016 and we shall seize this economic momentum to bring about inclusive developments to our people. Any hiccups to slow down growth will depend on the overall performance of the global economy."

Andanar also defended the administration's drug war, which has drawn much international criticism due to its rising death toll.

"The President’s commitment in the anti-illegal drug campaign and criminality will enhance the country’s image to attract more foreign investment," he said.

"Peace and order is a must, for investors to invest more in the country and we thank the Filipino for having a better appreciation of the positive changes now happening under this administration. As we all know, consumer optimism soared at the start of this presidency."

Trade Secretary Ramon Lopez added that despite the concerns over killings, the government is not changing macroeconomic policies.

"Kasi ho si President Duterte tingin po naming even sa business sector, siya po talaga determined lang to help the Filipino people, to ensure peace, security, drug-free, illegal drug-free. Iyon din po ang pangako sa ASEAN nagkasundo doon at siya po talagang he is just after our welfare," he said.

*Tough talk*

In his Cagayan De Oro speech, Duterte also defended his tough talk, hitting out at human rights advocates for criticizing him for his rhetoric threatening to kill criminals.

"There is no law at all [that stops anyone from threatening criminals]. Mind you, Human Rights Commission, tarantando pala kayo, there has to be a law." he said.

Earlier this month, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein criticized Duterte for "empowering police forces to shoot to kill any individual whom they claim to suspect of drug crimes, with or without evidence."

- See more at: http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/stor...ith-china-russia-instead#sthash.x4iqKTdV.dpuf

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## Shotgunner51

powastick said:


> "Ang issue dito hindi ang bunganga ko. And they are saying the ratings sa business, sa economy. Eh 'di so be it. Lumayas kayo. Then we can start on our own.* I can go to China. I can go to Russia. I had a talk with them. They are waiting for me.* So what the hell."





powastick said:


> "Sabihin nitong mga... na BB plus credit, wala akong pakialam sa inyo," he said in Misamis Oriental.





powastick said:


> "Kasi ho si President Duterte tingin po naming even sa business sector, siya po talaga determined lang to help the Filipino people, to ensure peace, security, drug-free, illegal drug-free. Iyon din po ang pangako sa ASEAN nagkasundo doon at siya po talagang he is just after our welfare," he said.




Any idea what the non-English parts says? Please help translate if possible.

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## vostok

September 22 Memorial Park "Chuninyuan" village Telinhe Mudanjiang City, Heilongjiang Province held a solemn ceremony of opening of the monument in honor of the seven Soviet soldiers of 190th Rifle Division died in war with Japan.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Who is this guy I like his enthusiasm smart guy to recognize importance of regional cooperation

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## Cossack25A1

Shotgunner51 said:


> Any idea what the non-English parts says? Please help translate if possible.





> Ang issue dito hindi ang bunganga ko. And they are saying the ratings sa business, sa economy. Eh 'di so be it. Lumayas kayo.


The issue here is not my mouth. And they are saying the ratings for business, for economy. Then so be it. Get lost.



> "Sabihin nitong mga... na BB plus credit, wala akong pakialam sa inyo," he said in Misamis Oriental.


They can say...BBplus credit, I don't care about them (ratings).



> Kasi ho si President Duterte tingin po naming even sa business sector, siya po talaga determined lang to help the Filipino people, to ensure peace, security, drug-free, illegal drug-free. Iyon din po ang pangako sa ASEAN nagkasundo doon at siya po talagang he is just after our welfare," he said.


For us in the business sector, President Duterte is determined to help the Filipino people, to ensure peace, security, drug-free, illegal drug-free. That is also the agreement in ASEAN and he is just after our welfare.

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## Shotgunner51

Cossack25A1 said:


> The issue here is not my mouth. And they are saying the ratings for business, for economy. Then so be it. Get lost.
> 
> 
> They can say...BBplus credit, I don't care about them (ratings).
> 
> 
> For us in the business sector, President Duterte is determined to help the Filipino people, to ensure peace, security, drug-free, illegal drug-free. That is also the agreement in ASEAN and he is just after our welfare.




My Tagalog is very limited, thanks very much for your help!

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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> *Vietnam calls for peace maintenance as Russia joins China in military drill in S.China Sea*
> 
> By Viet Anh September 22, 2016 | 05:42 pm GMT+7
> *The week-long joint exercise came shortly after Putin spoke in support for China’s stance in the waters.*
> Vietnam’s foreign spokesman has called for peace maintenance in the region as China and Russia just conducted the first joint military exercise in the East Sea, internationally known as the South China Sea.
> 
> The spokesman said at a press briefing Thursday that all activities including military operations in the East Sea need to follow international regulations, particularly the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).
> 
> “Vietnam hopes that all countries contribute positively to the maintenance of peace and stability, and ensure air and maritime safety and security in the East Sea as well as the whole Asia-Pacific region,” Binh said.
> 
> China and Russia on Monday just wrapped up their first week-long military exercise off Guangdong.
> 
> The activity came after Russian President Vladimir Putin showed support for Beijing’s position in the East Sea during talks early this month.
> 
> The two leaders are said to have shared opinions that it is inappropriate for a third party to meddle in other countries’ affairs, the argument Beijing has used against U.S. involvement in East Sea territorial disputes.
> 
> An international tribune in the Hague on July 12 ruled that Beijing has no legal basis to claim historic rights to the East Sea resources. The ruling came after the Philippines filed a case in January 2013 accusing Beijing of violating the UNCLOS.
> 
> http://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/vi...in-military-drill-in-s-china-sea-3472572.html



I am cautiously optimistic that, like the PH, VN will also come to its senses in understanding that conspiring with outside-unrelated actors against China on the territorial disputes will only aggravate the situation and end up hardening China's posture.

At the end of the day, no body will really risk their lives for PH or VN.

Russia's support of China in the South China Sea obviously shows that two top powers of the world desire a bilaterally-negotiated regional solution to the disputes.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> As of July, *Chinese enterprises had established 52 economic cooperation zones in the countries while paying 900 million dollars in taxes and creating nearly 70,000 local jobs*.
> 
> The MOC said earlier the Belt and Road Initiative had boosted business cooperation between Chinese and foreign firms. During the *first eight months of 2016, nearly 4,000 engineering contracts were signed by Chinese companies in 61 countries along the routes, with combined contract value of 69.82 billion U.S. dollars*.



Impressive. Hopefully, soon, we will not be bombarded by the analyses on China's overproduction woes just like the stories on ghost cities and pollution which are now being sidelined by the Western discourse market.

***

*Hong Kong and Kazakhstan Strengthen Ties under The Belt and Road Initiative *

*High-level Hong Kong delegation visits Almaty, Astana*

HONG KONG, Sept 15, 2016 - (ACN Newswire) - Riding on business opportunities being created by the Belt and Road Initiative, Hong Kong's first high-level official delegation to Central Asia is visiting Kazakhstan to promote closer trade and investment ties. Organised by the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government and the Hong Kong Trade Development Council (HKTDC), the 13-16 September mission is led by Financial Secretary John Tsang and involves meetings with Kazakh government and business leaders in Astana and Almaty.

In the Kazakh capital, Kairat Kelimbetov, Governor of the Astana International Financial Centre officiated at a Wednesday (14 September) business luncheon which attracted more than 210 leading members of the Kazakhstan business community.

Memorandum of understanding on bilateral relations

A highlight of the trip was a Memorandum of Understanding signed Wednesday by the HKTDC and Astana International Financial Centre. Under the agreement, the HKTDC will promote investment projects in Kazakhstan through its Belt and Road Portal and both organisations will support future delegations to Hong Kong and Kazakhstan respectively.

Financial Secretary Mr Tsang also witnessed a framework agreement between KZT Express, a transport and logistics subsidiary of Kazakhstan's national railway, and Hong Kong-registered Kazakhstan Potash Corporation (KPC). The deal calls for the two companies to establish and develop cooperation on international transportation and logistics.

Hong Kong-Kazakhstan collaboration

Noting that Kazakhstan is Central Asia's largest economy with ample natural resources, Mr Tsang outlined Hong Kong's unique advantages including its "one country, two systems" formula as a Special Administrative Region of China, as well as the city's international experience and networks in finance, investment, trade and logistics.

He also said Kazakh investors and businesses can make good use of Hong Kong's advanced infrastructure and professional services to find opportunities on the Chinese mainland as well as in global markets.

Belt and Road opportunities

Also speaking at the Hong Kong Business Luncheon in Astana, HKTDC Assistant Executive Director Stephen Liang elaborated on the event's theme: "Exploring Business Opportunities between Hong Kong and Kazakhstan under the Belt and Road Initiative."

Mr Liang said the Initiative provides a clear impetus for Hong Kong-Kazakhstan collaboration to grow, and the HKTDC stands ready to support companies from Kazakhstan and around the world to access Belt and Road opportunities using Hong Kong's wide range of services including legal, financial, transport, infrastructure and real estate services.

He added that the HKTDC can help by "informing, connecting and facilitating" through the Council's full range of services and events including more than 30 world-class international trade fairs and conferences as well as business matching and investment missions. Mr Liang invited Kazakh enterprises to join the next Belt and Road Summit in Hong Kong on 11 September 2017, as well as to visit the HKTDC's Belt and Road Portal (www.beltandroad.hk) where Kazakhstan businesses can find news about Belt and Road-related projects and connect with potential partners and investors.

The mission was also an opportunity to underscore how Kazakh companies are already tapping into Hong Kong's business advantages. Companies such as KAZ Minerals and KTZ Express are already either listed in Hong Kong or have opened Hong Kong offices. In recent years, there are also an increasing number of buyers and exhibitors from Kazakhstan coming to Hong Kong trade events.

Rising star in Central Asia

Mr Kelimbetov welcomed Hong Kong business people to explore new opportunities in Kazakhstan. "To encourage business growth and attract foreign investment, we have adopted a number of measures such as simplified procedures and tax incentives," he said.

In addition to WTO accession, Kazakhstan is a founding member of the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) and is a potential access point to the 290 million-strong CIS market which includes Russia, Belarus, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan. The country has set up 10 special economic zones (SEZs), including the US$3.5 billion Khorgas-East Gate SEZ near its border with China. 

Diverse delegation

Among the more than 30 Hong Kong delegates on the trip are senior executives from regulatory agencies as well from leading multinational corporations in finance, infrastructure and real estate, technology, telecommunications, legal, logistics and natural resources sectors.

The mission includes Chairman of Hong Kong's Financial Services Development Council Laura Cha, Chairman of ATF Bank Anthony Espina, Technical Director of Octopus Holdings Limited Sammy Kam and Non-executive Chairman of MTR Corporation Frederick Ma. Representatives from Hong Kong Exchanges & Clearing Limited, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority and PCCW Global Limited are also part of the delegation.

During the four-day visit, the Hong Kong group will meet Kazakh officials and executives of leading enterprises, as well as see public transportation systems, logistics and industrial park facilities, a mixed-use development project and attend briefings by financial institutions.

The group will depart Astana for Almaty today, where a second Hong Kong Business Luncheon will be held at the InterContinental Almaty Hotel on Friday (16 September).

HKTDC Photo Link: http://bit.ly/2cIwqP8

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## cochine

TaiShang said:


> I am cautiously optimistic that, like the PH, VN will also come to its senses in understanding that conspiring with outside-unrelated actors against China on the territorial disputes will only aggravate the situation and end up hardening China's posture.
> 
> At the end of the day, no body will really risk their lives for PH or VN.
> 
> Russia's support of China in the South China Sea obviously shows that two top powers of the world desire a bilaterally-negotiated regional solution to the disputes.



aggressive rising or expansionism of China in SCS is the main reason for USA asia pivot policy. The situation is getting more complicated when Russia and Japan will involved in to this dispute with different intention. PCA ruling is victory of people PH and VN here. and USA will turn back , in long term. Its not vobal talking.

Russia support for China (vobally and ot training your by navy drilling) is simply calculated on his own interest, the case of Crime annexation should be brought to permanent court in Hagge, in near future. Russian will not join to fight counter USANAVY in SCS for China' dream. I think China could known well about that.


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## ahojunk

*Russia & China start building connecting suspension bridge*
Published time: 22 Sep, 2016 12:33, RT.com




_*
The Amursk River riverside in Blagoveshchensk © Igor Ageyenko / Sputnik*_​

The construction of a suspension bridge across the Amur River, which will connect the Russian city of Blagoveshchensk with China’s Heihe has begun, reports the Xinhua news agency.

The Chinese region will invest about $120 million in the project.

According to the construction director Xing Lixin, the bridge will be around a kilometer long and getting between China and Russia will take 20 minutes, which will significantly reduce the border crossing time.

The project has been thought about for 20 years, and Russia and China finally agreed to build the road in 2014. Since then, the two sides have been negotiating how it would be financed.

After the suspension bridge is finished, it will be connected to a railway bridge across the Amur River.







The bridge is likely to boost trade between Russia's Far East and China. The shortest distance between Heihe and Blagoveshchensk, which are known as sister cities, is 700 meters. However, cars now have to drive 3,500 kilometers to get to the neighbor country.

Border trade with China is a very important part for Blagoveshchensk’s economy. The city is home to a large Chinese expatriate community and is part of a free trade zone which also includes Heihe.

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## cirr

*Russia Targets China for Gold Sales as VTB, Sberbank Expand*

Yuliya Fedorinova YFEDORN

September 22, 2016 — 4:23 AM EDT

Updated on September 22, 2016 — 12:37 PM EDT

Russia’s gold sales in China are set to expand as VTB Capital boosts sales and Sberbank PJSC prepares to enter the market, chasing demand in the world’s biggest consumer of bullion.

Sberbank CIB plans to register on the Shanghai Gold Exchange and eventually to sell up to 100 tons (3.2 million ounces) a year, according to an e-mail from the investment arm of Russia’s largest bank. VTB Capital, a unit of the second-biggest lender, is targeting sales of as much as 20 metric tons of gold in China in 2017, Sergey Nenashev, the bank’s head of precious metals, said by e-mail. Sales may reach a rate of 100 tons a year near the end of 2018, he said.

Russian banks, which act as intermediaries between the country’s gold producers and the market, aim to tap into Asian growth. Rising incomes and few investment options in China are driving demand for gold jewelry, bars and coins in China. In July, Shanghai Gold Exchange volumes almost doubled from a year earlier to 1.7 trillion yuan ($255 billion), figures compiled by the bourse show.


Banks have been looking at China for a while as it’s the “largest ultimate, paying customer” for gold, Sergey Kashuba, head of the Union of Gold Producers of Russia, said by e-mail on Tuesday. This year, they may ship several tons of gold to China in pilot sales, he said.

If Sberbank and VTB each will reach their targets of annual sales of 100 tons to China, that would account for about 5 percent of the world’s global gold supply, based on figures from the World Gold Council.

*Avoiding Costs*
VTB and Otkritie Financial Corp., the nation’s biggest closely held lender, started operating on the bourse in Shanghai in April and August, respectively. Otkritie plans to sell 5 tons this year, the press service said, declining to comment further.

With India and China buying up almost 60 percent of global gold output, “our current strategy is to be the preferred partner for the official domestic importers into these regions,” Nenashev of VTB said. The lender buys 70 to 90 tons of gold in Russia each year, and 50 to 90 tons on international markets, he said.


Traditionally, Russian miners sold metal to local banks, primarily Sberbank, VTB and Otkritie, to avoid export costs. The country is the second-biggest gold producer, with output of about 290 tons in 2015, according to the Union of Gold Producers of Russia.

*Premium Price*
Miners like local banks as they offer a premium to market prices, Mikhail Stiskin, chief financial officer at Polyus PJSC, Russia’s largest gold producer, said in an interview in June.

“The central bank of Russia simply pays the London gold price to give an incentive to the domestic financial institutions not to export physical gold,” Nenashev said. “For the local banks, there are savings on international logistics, insurance and other transaction costs. This translates into savings for our customers as well.”

Sberbank sees Europe and the Middle East, as well as Asia, as the major focus but will consider expanding in other areas as long as markets stay strong, its press service said.

“We believe that the macroeconomic environment will stay supportive for gold and expect the metal to trade above $1,250-$1,300 per ounce in the mid-term with risks skewed to the upside," Sberbank said.

VTB Capital has a more optimistic view for 2017, forecasting an average $1,450 an ounce. Gold has risen 26 percent this year to $1,342 an ounce.

“Any drop below $1,300 per ounce should be viewed as a buying opportunity,” Nenashev said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...d-sales-to-china-as-sberbank-goes-to-shanghai

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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> aggressive rising or expansionism of China in SCS is the main reason for USA asia pivot policy.



The "Rebalance to Asia" policy was declared in 2011 (Obama's speech in Australian parliament and Clinton's article in Foreign Affairs.) China's island development program started in 2013.

According to the law of causality, China's island development program cannot be the cause of the "Pivot."



kecho said:


> The situation is getting more complicated when Russia and Japan will involved in to this dispute with different intention.



Japan has always been strongly involved. It is one of the largest (if not the largest) development actors in SEA. But Japan has its own historical-territorial baggage with China (Taiwan), Korea, and Russia. So, no, it cannot be a more effective actor than it really is.

Russia's involvement on China's side, however, changes the balance very significantly not the least because it is a nuclear power and hold UNSC seat. Besides, Russia has its own territorial dispute with Japan and in very bad terms with the US, which happens to be the new-found partner of Vietnam.



kecho said:


> PCA ruling is victory of people PH and VN here.



Maybe for VN, but obviously not for PH. Check the last two months of PH government statements. Looks like VN is the new PH for the US in SEA.



kecho said:


> and USA will turn back , in long term. Its not vobal talking.



US is already here, it cannot be more than it is. It came to the pinnacle of its existence in East Asia, and it looks like it has no practical effect on China, other than forcing China to take development steps more quickly than it would otherwise have done.

US presence is not helping you, because the US is not here to help you, in the first place.



kecho said:


> Russia support for China (vobally and ot training your by navy drilling) is simply calculated on his own interest, the case of Crime annexation should be brought to permanent court in Hagge, in near future.



Of course, my friend, would you work for your boss if it was not for your interest? Every sort of relationship is interest-based, be it monetary or emotional.

Hague cannot do anything to a UNSC permanent power. UNSC is the maker of law. You cannot fight a war legitimately if there is no full consensus by 5 permanent powers.



kecho said:


> Russian will not join to fight counter USANAVY in SCS for China' dream. I think China could known well about that.



Just as the US will not fight with China for PH or VN. Maybe it will fight with China, but not for VN or PH. Just ask yourself: Why would they have to die for you?

In the end, we are coming back to Hobbesian international system. You are alone. We are alone.

Russian support is strategically important for China, be it for altruistic reasons or for selfish interests. What matters is that Russia stands by China in SCS.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congratulations on Chinese and Russian forces on conclusion of collective effort to combat , against disturbances in region

We would we would have also been there , to participate in some capacity may be send in 1-2 ships in such a glorious occasion

Looks quite intense










Just amazing pictures thank you to the Chinese users to share these wonderful images

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## GS Zhou

kecho said:


> Russia support for China (vobally and ot training your by navy drilling) is simply calculated on his own interest, the case of Crime annexation should be brought to permanent court in Hagge, in near future. Russian will not join to fight counter USANAVY in SCS for China' dream. I think China could known well about that.



Of course Russian is doing it for its own interests. We are all making decisions and taking actions for own interests, no matter it is individual persons like you or me, or countries like China, Russia, US, Japan, or Vietnam. 

We value our ties with Russia. But that doesn't mean we need Russia to do the sea battle for us. That's unnecessary. The motto of our Chinese people is: 自力更生艰苦奋斗 (Translation: Work hard and depend on our own capabilities)

In addition, I don't know how your perceive the Russian Navy. But to me, the Russian Navy has been seriously weakened since its peak time during the Soviet-era. At least that's the case for its surface ships. For example, its Pacific Fleet currently only has five destroyers, 4x Project 1155, 1x Project 956, all commissioned before the death of the Soviet Union. 

But do you know the frequency of new ships delivery to the China PLA Navy just in this year (Jan. to July, 2016)? Let me tell you: *one new ship every 10 days*. If you don't believe, check my thread at:
https://defence.pk/threads/china-navy-has-got-19-new-ships-year-to-date-2016.442197/

BTW, take a look at the July 2016 sat. image of one Chinese shipyard. How many new 052D destroyers are close to be delivered? 1, 2, 3, 4! Again, that's just one shipyard at one single moment.

Now you still think we need Russia to do the sea battles for us?

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## Beast

GS Zhou said:


> Of course Russian is doing it for its own interests. We are all making decisions and taking actions for own interests, no matter it is individual persons like you or me, or countries like China, Russia, US, Japan, or Vietnam.
> 
> We value our ties with Russia. But that doesn't mean we need Russia to do the sea battle for us. That's unnecessary. The motto of our Chinese people is: 自力更生艰苦奋斗 (Translation: Work hard and depend on our own capabilities)
> 
> In addition, I don't know how your perceive the Russian Navy. But to me, the Russian Navy has been seriously weakened since its peak time during the Soviet-era. At least that's the case for its surface ships. For example, its Pacific Fleet currently only has five destroyers, 4x Project 1155, 1x Project 956, all commissioned before the death of the Soviet Union.
> 
> But do you know the frequency of new ships delivery to the China PLA Navy just in this year (Jan. to July, 2016)? Let me tell you: *one new ship every 10 days*. If you don't believe, check my thread at:
> https://defence.pk/threads/china-navy-has-got-19-new-ships-year-to-date-2016.442197/
> 
> BTW, take a look at the July 2016 sat. image of one Chinese shipyard. How many new 052D destroyers are close to be delivered? 1, 2, 3, 4! Again, that's just one shipyard at one single moment.
> 
> Now you still think we need Russia to do the sea battles for us?
> 
> View attachment 336997


The alliance is merely symbolic.

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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> The alliance is merely symbolic.



I believe, it also has considerable geopolitical and geoeconomic content. Consider the UNSC voting congruence and energy ties.

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## TaiShang

*OBOR. Why Vietnam matters?*



















Vietnam’s economy rose 6.7% in 2015, surpassing the target growth rate of 6.2%, with the industry and service sectors growing 9.4% and 6.3% YOY respectively.

Consumer price inflation in Vietnam edged up by 1.9% year-on-year (YOY) in April 2016 mainly due to two consecutive price hikes of petrol price as well as an increasing demand for construction materials.

In July 2015, Vietnam adopted a “negative list” in its inward investment policy with foreign businesses allowed to operate in all areas except six prohibited sectors.

China's Hong Kong was Vietnam’s six largest source of inward FDI in the first four months of 2016, valued at about US$196 million.

Vietnam is part of the China-ASEAN Free Trade Area, and it has signed double taxation agreements with over 60 countries/territories including the Chinese mainland and Hong Kong. In February 2016, Vietnam along with 11 other countries including the US and Singapore officially signed the Trans-pacific Partnership (TPP) Agreement.

Vietnam’s imports grew much faster than exports in 2015, resulting in a trade deficit of US$3.2 billion, with exports rising 8.1% YOY to US$ 162.4 billion while imports surging by 12% at US$ 165.6 billion.

China's Hong Kong’s exports to Vietnam dropped by 3.7% YOY to US$2.1 billion in the first three months of 2016, while imports increased by 5.4% to US$1.6 billion over the same period.
@kecho , @AViet , @Viet , @Shotgunner51

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## cochine

GS Zhou said:


> Of course Russian is doing it for its own interests. We are all making decisions and taking actions for own interests, no matter it is individual persons like you or me, or countries like China, Russia, US, Japan, or Vietnam.
> 
> We value our ties with Russia. But that doesn't mean we need Russia to do the sea battle for us. That's unnecessary. The motto of our Chinese people is: 自力更生艰苦奋斗 (Translation: Work hard and depend on our own capabilities)
> 
> In addition, I don't know how your perceive the Russian Navy. But to me, the Russian Navy has been seriously weakened since its peak time during the Soviet-era. At least that's the case for its surface ships. For example, its Pacific Fleet currently only has five destroyers, 4x Project 1155, 1x Project 956, all commissioned before the death of the Soviet Union.
> 
> But do you know the frequency of new ships delivery to the China PLA Navy just in this year (Jan. to July, 2016)? Let me tell you: *one new ship every 10 days*. If you don't believe, check my thread at:
> https://defence.pk/threads/china-navy-has-got-19-new-ships-year-to-date-2016.442197/
> 
> BTW, take a look at the July 2016 sat. image of one Chinese shipyard. How many new 052D destroyers are close to be delivered? 1, 2, 3, 4! Again, that's just one shipyard at one single moment.
> 
> Now you still think we need Russia to do the sea battles for us?
> 
> View attachment 336997





Beast said:


> The alliance is merely symbolic.



What you said above is disclosed that China and Russia don't trust each on others, this is symbolic navy drill to counter Asia pivot of USA only.

Putin said that Russi against the involvement of third party in to SCS dispute. It dose mean that Russia will not fight for China expansion in SCS.


----------



## terranMarine

kecho said:


> What you said above is disclosed that China and Russia don't trust each on others, this is symbolic navy drill to counter Asia pivot of USA only.


Whatever it is, Russia ain't gonna support Vietnam in SCS.

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## cochine

terranMarine said:


> Whatever it is, Russia ain't gonna support Vietnam in SCS.



supplying warships and fighting jets for us, it is enough.


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## Beast

kecho said:


> What you said above is disclosed that China and Russia don't trust each on others, this is symbolic navy drill to counter Asia pivot of USA only.
> 
> Putin said that Russi against the involvement of third party in to SCS dispute. It dose mean that Russia will not fight for China expansion in SCS.


China don't even needs Russia strength and can win easily against even the whole ASEAN combined. The drill is to show Russia stand on China side when comes to SCS dispute. PLAN has 3 fleet. Even sending just one fleet is enough to wipe out whole ASEAN fleet.  

China is too strong.

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## GS Zhou

kecho said:


> What you said above is disclosed that China and Russia don't trust each on others, this is symbolic navy drill to counter Asia pivot of USA only.
> 
> Putin said that Russi against the involvement of third party in to SCS dispute. It dose mean that Russia will not fight for China expansion in SCS.


I feel very funny that you use the word "trust" to describe diplomatic relationship. Tell me which countries on earth Vietnam can TRUST with heart and soul? China? Laos? Cambodia? Thailand? Russia? US? Japan? India?

I showed you the navy strength comparison. No need for us to have Russia to fight for us. That's the only hardcore fact, but too cruel to you.



Beast said:


> China don't even needs Russia strength and can win easily against even the whole ASEAN combined. The drill is to show Russia stand on China side when comes to SCS dispute. PLAN has 3 fleet. Even sending just one fleet is enough to wipe out whole ASEAN fleet.
> 
> China is too strong.


No need to mention the so-called "whole ASEAN combined". We have many friends in ASEAN, but just few opponents.
Don't let the few opponents spoil our friendship with the broader ASEAN community.

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## GS Zhou

kecho said:


> supplying warships and fighting jets for us, it is enough.


Enjoy your arms race with China!

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## Beast

kecho said:


> supplying warships and fighting jets for us, it is enough.


That is where the main problem. If US and Europe supply, I am more worry but it's Russia a good allies of China. I am sure all the vietnamese equipment source codes for China will be ready anything 

We can jam vietnam military hardware anytime we want. That is why PLAAF J-10 jam VPAF SU-30MKK 50times without problem while J-10 is unharmed.

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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> supplying warships and fighting jets for us, it is enough.



Why should Vietnam "trust" Russia while China can't?

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## fadine

TaiShang said:


> Why should Vietnam "trust" Russia while China can't?



common chineses:


> 下令吧。灭日本。灭越南。灭美国，最后灭俄罗斯，然后把这几个国家的，钱和女人在分给中国光棍。想想都爽歪歪，
> 
> =>
> extirpate Japan. extirpate Vietnam. Destroy the United States, and finally destroy Russia ...


Fac.

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## terranMarine

I know what @kecho is trying to do with word tricks such as Russia and China don't trust each other.
Allow me to summarize how things works

China doesn't expect Russia to join a sea battle against US in SCS. Lets be very clear on this shall we? 

Russia can sell subs,warships to Vietnam. China isn't gonna complain at Russia's doorstep.
In case of a sea battle, VN can forget about Russian fighting China. Russia will only watch how PLAN wipes out the pathetic Vietnam Navy.
China is rapidly building a Blue Water Navy, the speed in which China does this is astonishing
China is far more important than VN to Russia. VN is totally useless in helping Russia to deter US aggression especially if you look at the geographical settings. Russia,China and the "STAN" countries are all connected and forming a very important part of OBOR. VN is f*cking USELESS.
PLAN can still easily destroy PH, VN, INDO, MY Navies all combined
PLAN is already the 2nd strongest Naval force in the world
Good luck in arms race to PH,VN,INDO and MY. You guys' budget is a f*cking joke to us.
Oh don't expect Japan, India or US coming to save your ***, if you do well that's even more hilarious when either one of your countries is foolish enough to start a Naval battle against China and nobody is answering your cries "HELP HELP HELP"

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## ahojunk

_Besides the physical infrastructure, you also need the financial part..._

========
PBOC pushes yuan clearing services along Belt and Road
By ZHONG NAN/MAO WEIHUA (China Daily)
Updated: 2016-09-22 08:08

Bilateral, multilateral financial platforms will help facilitate trade and investment

The central bank will continue to make more bilateral currency swap deals, and enlarge the scope and scale of renminbi settlements with countries along the Belt and Road Initiative to cut exchange rate risk and transaction cost for trade and investment, said a senior central bank official on Wednesday.

Chen Yulu, deputy governor of the People's Bank of China, said China will use both bilateral and multilateral financial cooperation platforms and more flexible financial service policies to further facilitate trade and investment along these two trading routes.

The actual payment amount between China and countries and regions along the Belt and Road Initiative amounted to 860 billion yuan ($129 billion) between January and August this year.

The People's Bank of China has so far *signed 21 bilateral currency swap agreements* with central banks along the Belt and Road Initiative, with a total scale of *1.4 trillion yuan*.

Six countries along the routes have been authorized as renminbi qualified foreign institutional investors, with a total quota of 330 billion yuan, by the People' s Bank of China. China has also established five renminbi clearing banks along these two trading routes.

The infrastructure, service and trade network proposed by China in 2013 envisions a Silk Road Economic Belt and a 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, covering about 4.4 billion people in more than 60 countries and regions in Asia, Europe and Africa.

"The establishment of a sound green financing mechanism will be a systemic project that requires coordination among central authorities, local governments, financial institutions and enterprises," said Chen at the Silk Road Financial Forum, a part of the Fifth China-Eurasia Expo held in Urumqi, the capital city of the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region.

Because many infrastructure projects that are being built or will be built in markets along the Belt and Road Initiative require a large amount of capital and need to wait a long time to gain financial returns, Chen said it is also important to develop transportation, environmental protection, public service and infrastructure through the public-private partnership model.

In the PPP, a government service or private business venture is funded and operated through a partnership of government and one or more companies from the private sector.

Ji Yuhua, deputy director of policy research department at the China Insurance Regulatory Commission, said insurance companies and regulatory authorities are keen to offer more financial support for medium and long-term projects in countries along the Belt and Road Initiative, as capital needed by life insurance companies has an economic cycle between 30 and 40 years.

Eager to gain more financial return from overseas markets, Chinese insurance companies have also established an investment fund with capital of 300 billion yuan in 2015, and a considerable part of the fund have been invested in infrastructure and services along the Belt and Road.

Contact the writers at zhongnan@chinadaily.com.cn and maoweihua@chinadaily.com.cn

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## Viet

terranMarine said:


> I know what @kecho is trying to do with word tricks such as Russia and China don't trust each other.
> Allow me to summarize how things works
> 
> China doesn't expect Russia to join a sea battle against US in SCS. Lets be very clear on this shall we?
> 
> Russia can sell subs,warships to Vietnam. China isn't gonna complain at Russia's doorstep.
> In case of a sea battle, VN can forget about Russian fighting China. Russia will only watch how PLAN wipes out the pathetic Vietnam Navy.
> China is rapidly building a Blue Water Navy, the speed in which China does this is astonishing
> China is far more important than VN to Russia. VN is totally useless in helping Russia to deter US aggression especially if you look at the geographical settings. Russia,China and the "STAN" countries are all connected and forming a very important part of OBOR. VN is f*cking USELESS.
> PLAN can still easily destroy PH, VN, INDO, MY Navies all combined
> PLAN is already the 2nd strongest Naval force in the world
> Good luck in arms race to PH,VN,INDO and MY. You guys' budget is a f*cking joke to us.
> Oh don't expect Japan, India or US coming to save your ***, if you do well that's even more hilarious when either one of your countries is foolish enough to start a Naval battle against China and nobody is answering your cries "HELP HELP HELP"


Have you not noticed nobody is impressed by your empty bragging?

If you want to impress people in Vietnam then

- take back Manchuria from Russia

- liberate the senkakus from Japan

- unite Taiwan

- defeat America

- take the South China Sea under your control

Can you do anything except bragging days and nights?

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## terranMarine

Viet said:


> Have you not noticed nobody is impressed by your empty bragging?
> 
> If you want to impress people in Vietnam then
> 
> - take back Manchuria from Russia
> 
> - liberate the senkakus from Japan
> 
> - unite Taiwan
> 
> - defeat America
> 
> - take the South China Sea under your control
> 
> Can you do anything except bragging days and nights?



So sorry i wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone, just stating FACTS. Do you understand the difference between bragging and facts? You see unlike you i don't talk crap. I remember there are times you brag about Vietnam capable of defeating the PLA and sometimes you would say Vietnam won't stand a chance against China. Make up your goddamn mind how strong is your pathetic Vietnam compared to the PLA. Make a list of your damn Airforce,Army and Navy and compare with the PLA. It looks very very depressing on your side. So i suggest you buzz of and keep your so called supa powa Vietnam to your Vietnam military thread instead of promoting crap here. OH so what happened to the AB destroyers USA was supposed to give to Vietnam for FREE according to your begging? 2-3 years has already passed and i still don't see VN having any destroyers  

At least the Indians already know when to STFU now about their Navy. Few years back they were still talking crap about PLAN and how Indian Navy is ahead of us. We are militarizing the islands in SCS, we are expanding it. You see your papa USA doing anything about it? They are even too SCARED to ignite another Korean War and Kim keeps on testing Nukes. Keep on whining as China's military power is growing by the minute as we speak.

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## Viet

terranMarine said:


> So sorry i wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone, just stating FACTS. Do you understand the difference between bragging and facts? You see unlike you i don't talk crap. I remember there are times you brag about Vietnam capable of defeating the PLA and sometimes you would say Vietnam won't stand a chance against China. Make up your goddamn mind how strong is your pathetic Vietnam compared to the PLA. Make a list of your damn Airforce,Army and Navy and compare with the PLA. It looks very very depressing on your side. So i suggest you buzz of and keep your so called supa powa Vietnam to your Vietnam military thread instead of promoting crap here. OH so what happened to the AB destroyers USA was supposed to give to Vietnam for FREE according to your begging? 2-3 years has already passed and i still don't see VN having any destroyers
> 
> At least the Indians already know when to STFU now about their Navy. Few years back they were still talking crap about PLAN and how Indian Navy is ahead of us. We are militarizing the islands in SCS, we are expanding it. You see your papa USA doing anything about it? They are even too SCARED to ignite another Korean War and Kim keeps on testing Nukes. Keep on whining as China's military power is growing by the minute as we speak.


Stop empty bragging and show me Chinese military power. The Manchuria awaits you to liberate from Russia!


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## Reashot Xigwin

Viet said:


> Stop empty bragging and show me Chinese military power. The *Manchuria awaits you to liberate from Russia!*



You never finish high school, do you?

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## terranMarine

Viet said:


> Stop empty bragging and show me Chinese military power. The Manchuria awaits you to liberate from Russia!



Pretending to be strong when you are NOT is acting like a 

This is Vietnam







And it will be flatten by this

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## Beast

Viet said:


> Stop empty bragging and show me Chinese military power. The Manchuria awaits you to liberate from Russia!


I will report yr trolling @Shotgunner51

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## Shotgunner51

Thread locked for checking, please wait.

Edit: Thread now re-open. @Viet @terranMarine both of you please calm down, get back to topic, thanks!

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## cochine

TaiShang said:


> The "Rebalance to Asia" policy was declared in 2011 (Obama's speech in Australian parliament and Clinton's article in Foreign Affairs.) China's island development program started in 2013.
> 
> According to the law of causality, China's island development program cannot be the cause of the "Pivot."



China signed in to UNCLOS but after China submitted a map to the UN UNCLOS including the nine-dash lines territorial claim in the South China Sea on 7 May 2009.

Its clear evidence for the expansionism of China in SCS

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## TaiShang

*5th China-Eurasia Expo held in Urumqi *
*(Xinhua) Updated: 2016-09-24 *





Performers dance at the Belarus pavilion during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




A visitor watches the making of Hotan carpet during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




An exhibitor (R) drinks wine at Georgia pavilion during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




An exhibitor (R) shows the craftwork to visitors at Kenya pavilion during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




Visitors try the "dark tea" from China's Hunan Province during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




Visitors watch carpets at Iran pavilion during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




Visitors are seen beside porcelain works from China's Jiangxi province during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Uygur autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]




A visitor knows about vehicles of Foton during the 5th China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, capital of Northwest China's Xinjiang autonomous region, Sept 22, 2016. Starting from Sept 20, more than 2,000 Chinese and foreign companies, delegates from 57 countries and regions, and six global organizations are participating in the six-day fair held in the regional capital of Urumqi. [Photo/Xinhua]

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## TaiShang

kecho said:


> China signed in to UNCLOS but after China submitted a map to the UN UNCLOS including the nine-dash lines territorial claim in the South China Sea on 7 May 2009.
> 
> Its clear evidence for the expansionism of China in SCS



UNCLOS has nothing to do with the nine (or 10) dashed line. One is about the management if sea resources. The other is about sovereignty.

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## TaiShang

*Xi'an holds Int'l Seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative*
By Chen Boyuan
China.org.cn, September 26, 2016
More than *300 guests from 35 countries* gathered in Xi'an to attend the International Seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative, which opened on Sept. 26. The seminar, whose theme is "*Shared Memory, Common Development*," seeks to explore cooperation opportunities after this strategic initiative was proposed three years ago.



More than 300 guests from 35 countries gathered in Xi'an to attend the International Seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative, under the theme of "Shared Memory, Common Development," which opened on Sept. 26.[Photo/China.com.cn by Lun Xiaoxuan] 

The initiative has been met with a strong response from the international community and particularly from countries along the Belt and Road, arousing enthusiasm and interest in many countries to explore and participate in the initiative.

At the seminar's opening ceremony, Liu Qibao, member of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee and Head of the Publicity Department of the CPC Central Committee, said that the seminar's theme "embodies our efforts to treasure historical legacy, our wishes for the common prosperity of countries along the routes and acknowledges our responsibility to world peace and development."

*China has signed cooperative agreements with more than 30 countries and launched manufacturing and production capacity cooperation with more than 20 countries along the routes, said Liu.*

*"We should note that the outcomes in terms of speed and scale of the Belt and Road Initiative have been better than expected. Now, we have a clearer vision of the prospects of this initiative and are more confident in accomplishing it," he said.*

A previous international seminar on the Silk Road Economic Belt was held in Urumqi in 2014.

Xi'an is the birthplace of Chinese civilization and also the starting point of the ancient Silk Road.

This year's seminar will feature panel sessions with members from think tanks, the media and businesses.

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## cochine

TaiShang said:


> UNCLOS has nothing to do with the nine (or 10) dashed line. One is about the management if sea resources. The other is about sovereignty.



you can say what you want to say here, claim of China is illegal, so why china denied to join with Philippine to the court for arbitration in Hagge. China would like to use muscle-force to solve this dispute.

so why I said that expansionism of China is a reason for US turn back to Asia with asia pivot.


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## terranMarine

kecho said:


> you can say what you want to say here, claim of China is illegal, so why china denied to join with Philippine to the court for arbitration in Hagge. China would like to use muscle-force to solve this dispute.
> 
> so why I said that expansionism of China is a reason for US turn back to Asia with asia pivot.



First of all it's The Hague, you might look it up before you show off your English skills 

Secondly your constant cries of illegal this illegal that won't gain you any support or sympathy from PDF members or any one reading this for the matter. China got support from 60-70 countries after the ruling whereas Philippines can only enjoy a handful of support. From that moment on you guys can forget about claiming the world is supporting the Pinoys or Viets 

Thirdly, US pivot to Asia is not a reactionary response to China's island construction you simpleton. It's a grand scheme masking a secretive hidden agenda.

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## Shotgunner51

*Kazakhstan’s Nurly Zhol and China’s Economic Belt of the Silk Road: Confluence of Goals*
By Sanat Kushkumbayev _in_ Opinions _on_ 22 September 2015






Modern Kazakhstan, located in the central part of Eurasia, is a transit link in the system of multilevel interconnections of Asia and Europe. It is known that the internal development and availability of international transport arteries are essential ingredients to the economic and political independence of states. For Kazakhstan and other Central Asian countries since independence, the role of international transport communications has been and remains significant.

The draft economic Belt of the Silk Road (EBSR) and the *Nurly Zhol* state programme both were announced in the capital of Kazakhstan. It is symbolic that Chinese President Xi Jinping first announced this initiative to the international community in September 2013 in Astana. The concept is based on five principles: political convergence, communication infrastructure, free trade, circulation of capital and the rapprochement of peoples.

Announced by President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev in November 2014, the Nurly Zhol new economic policy largely corresponds with the plans for the development of EBSR. Launched into operation in recent years, sections of the international highway Western China – Western Europe, as well as the *Kazakhstan-Turkmenistan-Iran-Persian Gulf railway*, can be an organic part of the modern Silk Road routes.​
The Nurly Zhol programme is directed at integrated continuation of the course of reforms in the economy. To this end, Kazakhstan conducted a large-scale programme of modernisation of transport assets, which covers all modes of transport.​
Until 2020, it is planned to implement projects with a total investment of about *$40 billion*. Until the end of 2015, it is planned to attract $5 billion from four leading international banks for the construction of roads in the Centre – South, Centre – East and Center – West directions. This is how the task set in Nurly Zhol of connecting the capital with major regions on the radiation principle will be implemented.




2015 was especially fruitful for Kazakh-Chinese relations. President of China Xi Jinping at the time of his visit to Astana in May, noted, “Currently, China and Kazakhstan have achieved initial results towards the formation of the belt and the Chinese side appreciates this fact. China intends to promote the convergence of the formation of the economic zone of the Silk Road with the Kazakhstan’s Nurly Zhol programme.

_“Both countries should continue to implement large-scale joint projects in the spheres of infrastructure and transport and communication of interconnectedness to promote cooperation in the field of energy and finance, to deepen relations in the humanitarian sphere, to continue to strengthen the partnership for security,” _

said Xi Jinping.​
The state visit of the President of Kazakhstan to China in early September gave a new impetus to bilateral cooperation and in particular the further interaction of Kazakhstan’s Nurly Zhol and the Chinese initiative of the Economic Belt of the Silk Road. A joint declaration on a new stage of comprehensive strategic partnership, adopted by the two leaders, secured the long-term perspective.

Kazakhstan’s competitiveness depends not only on the development of transit potential, but also on the level of development of national transport and communications infrastructure. Cooperation with China, having rich experience in this field is attractive for Kazakhstan.

The planned construction of the Big Almaty Ring Road near Almaty will exceed 100 km and will be built funded by Chinese investment.
Infrastructure facilities such as the Almaty – Ust-Kamenogorsk road, the road to the border with China to the Alashankou station and several others will be implemented through the investment from China.
The loan agreement between JSC Astana LRT and the State Development Bank of China was signed.
Light rail transit will be built in the capital of Kazakhstan and the creation of a system of high-speed BRT buses will be subsidised.
Chinese partners are planning to invest $600 million over five years in the development of the logistics and the creation of industrial special economic zone at Khorgos-Eastern Eate.
The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is the driver of these and other projects with capital of $100 billion along with the Silk Road Fund with $40 billion.
For the purpose of industrial development in Kazakhstan, the Bank of China is ready to allocate $5 billion through the Baiterek holding.
Moreover, investments are expected in Kazakhstan from the Silk Road Funds and also the largest investment corporation, CITIC Group.
In addition, the Samruk Kazyna Sovereign Wealth Fund has signed with Chinese companies agreements in the spheres of transport, energy, nuclear, metallurgical and chemicals totaling $5.1 billion.
Kazakhstan welcomes Chinese investment in non-primary sectors of the economy. In the framework of the signed new contracts, joint ventures will be created in the manufacturing and agriculture sectors (cement, glass, food industry) on the territory of Kazakhstan. These ventures involve dozens of companies and billions of dollars in contracts.
With regard to the implementation of projects with partners from China, Kazakhstan has formed a volume of 100 container trains from the port of Lianyungang to Central Asia. This new volume has never been on the railroad. EBSR has become an open platform for economic cooperation between the Eurasian Economic Union and the Asia-Pacific region.
With a gradual shift of the global economic centre towards the Asia-Pacific region, relations between Europe and East Asia will take a leading role. The dynamic development of these ties is currently channeled through ASEM (Asia-Europe Meeting) institution with regular meetings of leaders of Asia-Pacific countries and the EU. Kazakhstan’s accession to the World Trade Organisation and the introduction of international standards for the movement of goods across borders should have a significant impact on the development of transport infrastructure of the region.






*The author is deputy director of the Kazakhstan Institute of Strategic Studies under the President of Kazakhstan.*

http://astanatimes.com/2015/09/kaza...ic-belt-of-the-silk-road-confluence-of-goals/

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## cochine

terranMarine said:


> First of all it's The Hague, you might look it up before you show off your English skills
> 
> Secondly your constant cries of illegal this illegal that won't gain you any support or sympathy from PDF members or any one reading this for the matter. China got support from 60-70 countries after the ruling whereas Philippines can only enjoy a handful of support. From that moment on you guys can forget about claiming the world is supporting the Pinoys or Viets
> 
> Thirdly, US pivot to Asia is not a reactionary response to China's island construction you simpleton. It's a grand scheme masking a secretive hidden agenda.



Its my Vietenglish. You can understand or not, I don't care.

There is 60 to 70 country ? your number is not correct, can you show list the name of such countries here ?.

USA asia pivot is not secret aganda. Its clear that Uncle Sam doesn't let China to be master who could dominated in East and South East Asia, geopolictially.


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## Pinoy

26 September 2016

By AFP

*Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte said Monday he would seek closer economic ties with China and Russia, as the local currency and stock market extended declines following Western criticism of his deadly war on crime.*

The peso hit a seven-year low to the dollar on Monday and foreign investors pulled out from local shares for a 23rd straight day, which analysts said was due to growing uncertainty over Duterte's handling of what has been one of Asia's best-performing economies in recent years.

*"I will open trade alliances with Russia and China so all you other investors, just go. No problem,"* Duterte said in a speech at the presidential palace.







*Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte has attracted widespread criticism from Western governments and rights groups for a bloody crime crackdown ©Noel Celis (AFP/File)*

*Duterte has attracted widespread criticism from Western governments and rights groups for a bloody crime crackdown has that claimed more than 3,300 lives since he took office on June 30.*

International credit rating agency Standard and Poor's warned last week Duterte's war on crime was threatening the Philippines' economy and endangering its democratic institutions.

It also said his unpredictable foreign policy and national security statements were other downsides that meant a credit upgrade for the Philippines was unlikely in the next two years.

Duterte has responded with abusive comments agains his critics over his war on crime, such as branding US President Barack Obama a "son of a whore" and UN chief Ban Ki-moon a "fool".

The Philippines, a former American colony, had up until Duterte been one of the United States' most loyal and enduring allies in Asia. The two nations are bound by a mutual defence treaty.

*Duterte has repeatedly signalled he is looking to distance the Philippines from the United States, but his comments on Monday were his most explicit that he was planning to pivot towards US rivals China and Russia.*

Duterte said he had already privately spoken with Chinese President Xi Jinping and Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, although it was impossible to immediately verify when the conversations had taken place.

On Monday the Philippine stock market fell 1.18 percent to close at 7,632.46 points.

*"Global funds sold Philippine stocks for a 23rd straight day amid nervousness about the fallout from Duterte’s anti-drug war and his outbursts against the US and the United Nations," *Bloomberg reported.

The local currency also fell 0.5 percent on Monday to 48.25 to the dollar, touching its lowest level since 2009.

*"(The peso's decline is) mainly due to politics, with the Philippine president’s ongoing war on drug dealers and his intent to seem to alienate all of their major trading partners," *Jeffrey Halley, a market strategist at Oanda Asia Pacific Pte in Singapore told Bloomberg.






*
The Filipino peso hit a seven-year low to the dollar on Monday and foreign investors pulled out from local shares for a 23rd straight day ©Jay Directo (AFP/File)*

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## 艹艹艹

It is said that the Americans want him to step down.

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## eldamar

Mysticbuddy said:


> Man this guy is showing all the signs of foolishness. I am with him when it comes to drug war but he is becoming reckless.
> 
> :


.
More like he is doomed if u continue's his pontless alliance with the US. Pivoting to China is a pragmatic decision

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## Mysticbuddy

eldarlmari said:


> i
> More like he is doomed if u continue's his pontless alliance with the US. Pivoting to China is a pragmatic decision


Loosing its claim over SC sea is pragmatic? I am not sure. Please elaborate


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## C130

time to ask Duterte if he accepts the 9 dash line now

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mysticbuddy said:


> Loosing its claim over SC sea is pragmatic? I am not sure. Please elaborate
> 
> 
> Well that's what Hong Kong people are for. How are those student leaders working?



You know I am a Hong Konger right? 

Tell me, what has the "mutual defence treaty" between the USA and the Philippines done for them?

When China was seizing territory from the Philippines in 2012, what did America do?

Nothing. They didn't even sanction China for $0.01, that's how much their "mutual defence treaty" is worth to them.

But now Duterte can come and negotiate directly with China. Our claims in the SCS are up for negotiation, as long as the other side is reasonable. (Much better than just losing it anyway under an alliance with the US.)

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## 艹艹艹

C130 said:


> time to ask Duterte if he accepts the 9 dash line now


So he wants to negotiate with China, not the United States

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## Jlaw

Mysticbuddy said:


> Loosing its claim over SC sea is pragmatic? I am not sure. Please elaborate



you can't lose what you don't really own in the first place.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Mysticbuddy said:


> There is just one problem, US is not reasonable. When we went to Afghanistan or Iraq or Libya. You get it. Right?



Yeah I remember the USA invaded 3 countries in the past decade alone.

And you wonder why Duterte wants nothing to do with the USA anymore. 

Under their alliance with the USA, China was actively seizing territory from them, while America ignored their own mutual defence treaty. You can't blame them for thinking that is a bad deal.

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## Mysticbuddy

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You know I am a Hong Konger right?
> 
> Tell me, what has the "mutual defence treaty" between the USA and the Philippines done for them?
> 
> When China was seizing territory from the Philippines in 2012, what did America do?
> 
> Nothing. They didn't even sanction China for $0.01, that's how much their "mutual defence treaty" is worth to them.
> 
> But now Duterte can come and negotiate directly with China. Our claims in the SCS are up for negotiation, as long as the other side is reasonable. (Much better than just losing it anyway under an alliance with the US.)


Now the sane answer, they will not back out of the treaty. And yes we need their -- what? We give them a lot in lieu for the bases there.


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## eldamar

Mysticbuddy said:


> Loosing its claim over SC sea is pragmatic? I am not sure. Please elaborate
> 
> 
> Well that's what Hong Kong people are for. How are those student leaders working?



like the other poster said, how do u lose somethign when it's never yours in the first place. Clearly Duterte knows this deep within. Hence, hes smart to pivot to China in return for the massive incoming Chinese infrastruture investments in the PH(like the railroad projects)

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## Mysticbuddy

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yeah I remember the USA invaded 3 countries in the past decade alone.
> 
> And you wonder why Duterte wants nothing to do with the USA anymore.
> 
> Under their alliance with the USA, China was actively seizing territory from them, while America ignored their own mutual defence treaty. You can't blame them for thinking that is a bad deal.


What territory are you claiming? South China Sea?


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## 艹艹艹

*Philippines's president has accused the United States Holocaust Philippines*

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## XDescendantX

While the Philippine president is at it he might as well kick out the U.S. military as well. It would be a double win for China.

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## C130

long_ said:


> So he wants to negotiate with China, not the United States


china isn't going to negotitate over the 9 dash line. it's either submit or be conquered.

china is going to do what it wants no matter what. Duterte and the Phillphines aren't equals to China on this issue.

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## 艹艹艹

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Yeah I remember the USA invaded 3 countries in the past decade alone..


Because the US arms dealers want to make more money.



C130 said:


> china isn't going to negotitate over the 9 dash line. it's either submit or be conquered.
> 
> china is going to do what it wants no matter what. Duterte and the Phillphines aren't equals to China on this issue.


Therefore, in this issue, the United States can not play a role. Philippines can only negotiate with China

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## eldamar

Whatever American Exceptionalist defenders have to argue, Duterte has made up his mind.

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## Beast

Mysticbuddy said:


> Loosing its claim over SC sea is pragmatic? I am not sure. Please elaborate


What can SCS do to Philippine economy and how does US soldier presence of abusing local and rapes helps to stamp the fury of Pinoy towards US soldier?

You can't expect to eat the whole pie w/o contributing.

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## alaungphaya

Money talks, bullshit walks. You Filipinos need to deal with this guy. It's like you elected aa Youtube comments section for president.

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## Nike

alaungphaya said:


> Money talks, bullshit walks. You Filipinos need to deal with this guy. It's like you elected aa Youtube comments section for president.




they worship him right now


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## pr1v4t33r

madokafc said:


> they worship him right now


there's already some gossips about a coup plan circulating in the air.


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## alaungphaya

madokafc said:


> they worship him right now


The rich elite don't I bet. And Philippines is run by a small cabal of rich and powerful families just like other Hispanic legacy countries. They won't stand idly by as their fortunes plummet.


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## eldamar

pr1v4t33r said:


> there's already some gossips about a coup plan circulating in the air.



Source?

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## Cossack25A1

eldarlmari said:


> Source?



http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2016/09/20/malacanang-andanar-duterte-coup-plot.html
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/coup-detat...philippines-government-issues-warning-1582250
http://www.rappler.com/nation/146772-palace-investigating-oust-duterte-plot



alaungphaya said:


> Money talks, bullshit walks. You Filipinos need to deal with this guy. It's like you elected aa Youtube comments section for president.



16 million (out of 98 million) Filipinos voted him, and they are are the most vocal in the Internet.

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## eldamar

Cossack25A1 said:


> http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2016/09/20/malacanang-andanar-duterte-coup-plot.html
> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/coup-detat...philippines-government-issues-warning-1582250
> http://www.rappler.com/nation/146772-palace-investigating-oust-duterte-plot
> 
> 
> 
> 16 million (out of 98 million) Filipinos voted him, and they are are the most vocal in the Internet.


 

if thats the case, PH would be descending into anarchy(if he ever gets ousted- dead or alive) since duterte is a lawfully-elected president

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## TaiShang

The US military presence is nothing but a social, economic and moral disaster.

Duterte's seeking for non-militarized interaction is fully understandable.

China and Russia welcome Duterte as a reasonable partner.

***

*Duterte ‘about to cross the Rubicon’ with US, wants alliances with Russia & China*
26 Sep, 2016

*




*
Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte © Erik De Castro / Reuters

The remarks came just as the Philippines and the US prepare to hold joint naval exercises in October. Such drills have over the years served to cemented the military alliance between the two countries.

Philippine leader seeks arms from Russia & China, pursues policies independent from US 

Duterte earlier said *he would seek a termination of the treaty which allows US soldiers to maintain a presence in his country's south. He also said he would buy weapons from Russia and China to decrease reliance on America in defense matters, and that Manila would not participate in a maritime conflict were it to be initiated by Washington, despite a 1951 treaty requiring it to do so.*

The militaries on both sides said the president's statements would not undermine their cooperation.

Speaking on Monday, Duterte also dismissed concerns expressed last week by the rating agency Standard and Poor's, which said the sluggish performance of the Philippines economy and Duterte's controversial remarks may prompt it to revise the country's rating.

_*"Never mind about the ratings,"*_* the president said. *_*"I will open up the Philippines for them to do business, alliances of trade and commerce."*_

Duterte came to power on the image of being a tough guy and the promise to fight drug crimes the way he did during his tenure as mayor of Davao City. The no-holds-barred approach to narcotics earned him the nickname ‘the Punisher’ after the mafia-fighting vigilante character from the Marvel comic books.

The president said he would welcome the United Nations, European Union and United States to investigate alleged unlawful killings during his ongoing anti-drug campaign, but only under Philippine laws.

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## Manidabest

well good for his country i cant talk about russia but China is a decent country and a long term friend... it doesnt invade anyone and doesnt interfere in anyone's internal problem....

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## pr1v4t33r

Cossack25A1 said:


> 16 million (out of 98 million) Filipinos voted him, and they are are the most vocal in the Internet.



So, what's your personal opinion about the coup plot? against it or secretly support it?


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## TaiShang

*China expected to play more practical role in Belt and Road Initiative: report*
September 27, 2016
People's Daily






The International Seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative is held in Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, Sept. 26, 2016. (Xinhua/Shao Rui)

*China sees itself not only as an initiator but also a responsible and reliable practitioner of the Belt and Road Initiative*, suggested a think tank in a report on the three-year progress of "Belt and Road," released on Sept. 26.

Since the Belt and Road Initiative is *a long-term and systematic program*, China should take measures in five areas, including policy, talent cultivation and business support, the report stated. These measures will ensure that China plays a more practical role in the development of the initiative. The report, titled "Adhering to the Planning, Order and Pragmatic Construction of the 'Belt and Road,'" was released on Monday.

The report emphasizes the role of business support systems as a source of power for the initiative’s development.

"Comprehensive support for Chinese enterprises in terms of investment banking services, business trust, administration, legal affairs, auditing, consulting and investigation should be in place, so as to help Chinese enterprises prosper while going global," the report said. The report also stated that both a "positive list" and "negative list" should be introduced in the initiative to build a comprehensive mechanism for efficient and integrated progress.

In light of the fact that there’s no existing precedent, efforts should be made to explore innovative construction, the report said. A productive network of global Chinese talent should be developed, as overseas Chinese serve as an important link to reduce the gap between China and foreign countries.

Furthermore, the report said that *China should offer a full interpretation of the significance of the initiative, clearly explaining its positive effects.* This has the potential to facilitate the deepening of international cooperation and reduce misunderstanding of the initiative abroad.

By the end of June 2016, China had issued joint proposals and statements with 56 countries and regional organizations for implementing the initiative, and signed relevant memorandums of understanding or agreements accordingly. China has signed investment treaties with various countries along the Belt and Road route, investing over $50 billion. To ensure adequate financing, China has been pushing for trade settlement in RMB, currency swaps and other financial arrangements.

The report, the country's first authoritative report on the three-year progress of “Belt and Road" and a result of research done by a team at the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies of Renmin University of China, was released at a seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative, which opened on Sept. 26 in Xi'an, the capital city of Shaanxi province.

***

My friend, @Sinopakfriend, the part highlighted in red clearly echoes your observation that the OBOR discourse needs to be better narrated and introduced to the potential stakeholders. Effective narration is clearly part and parcel of the success of the theory in practical use and real world effect.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

TaiShang said:


> *China expected to play more practical role in Belt and Road Initiative: report*
> September 27, 2016
> People's Daily
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The International Seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative is held in Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, Sept. 26, 2016. (Xinhua/Shao Rui)
> 
> *China sees itself not only as an initiator but also a responsible and reliable practitioner of the Belt and Road Initiative*, suggested a think tank in a report on the three-year progress of "Belt and Road," released on Sept. 26.
> 
> Since the Belt and Road Initiative is *a long-term and systematic program*, China should take measures in five areas, including policy, talent cultivation and business support, the report stated. These measures will ensure that China plays a more practical role in the development of the initiative. The report, titled "Adhering to the Planning, Order and Pragmatic Construction of the 'Belt and Road,'" was released on Monday.
> 
> The report emphasizes the role of business support systems as a source of power for the initiative’s development.
> 
> "Comprehensive support for Chinese enterprises in terms of investment banking services, business trust, administration, legal affairs, auditing, consulting and investigation should be in place, so as to help Chinese enterprises prosper while going global," the report said. The report also stated that both a "positive list" and "negative list" should be introduced in the initiative to build a comprehensive mechanism for efficient and integrated progress.
> 
> In light of the fact that there’s no existing precedent, efforts should be made to explore innovative construction, the report said. A productive network of global Chinese talent should be developed, as overseas Chinese serve as an important link to reduce the gap between China and foreign countries.
> 
> Furthermore, the report said that *China should offer a full interpretation of the significance of the initiative, clearly explaining its positive effects.* This has the potential to facilitate the deepening of international cooperation and reduce misunderstanding of the initiative abroad.
> 
> By the end of June 2016, China had issued joint proposals and statements with 56 countries and regional organizations for implementing the initiative, and signed relevant memorandums of understanding or agreements accordingly. China has signed investment treaties with various countries along the Belt and Road route, investing over $50 billion. To ensure adequate financing, China has been pushing for trade settlement in RMB, currency swaps and other financial arrangements.
> 
> The report, the country's first authoritative report on the three-year progress of “Belt and Road" and a result of research done by a team at the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies of Renmin University of China, was released at a seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative, which opened on Sept. 26 in Xi'an, the capital city of Shaanxi province.
> 
> ***
> 
> My friend, @Sinopakfriend, the part highlighted in red clearly echoes your observation that the OBOR discourse needs to be better narrated and introduced to the potential stakeholders. Effective narration is clearly part and parcel of the success of the theory in practical use and real world effect.



Tai Shang,

It delights me to see that things are moving in the right direction with typical Chinese methodic approach. Of course, to have a solid narrative one needs actual results which speak for themselves. Otherwise, we end up with hollow rethoric of certain quarters. 

Given the historic scale and magnitude of OBOR it will take time..however, I am delighted to see that policymakers at the highest level are investing in this fundamental instrument.

Otherwise, you and I are always available to take the burden of shaping and executing the narrative. 

You have a wonderfulday!

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## TaiShang

*(Along Belt & Road) Spotlight: Three years on, China's Belt and Road Initiative to embrace greater achievements

Xinhua | 2016-09-26*

XI'AN, China, Sept. 26 (Xinhua) -- Three years ago, Beijing unveiled its Belt and Road Initiative to deepen China's own reforms and opening-up, and better connect itself with the rest of the world in terms of policy coordination, trade, transportation, energy and information facilities.

Beijing wants to see that the bounty of development arising from the landmark initiative can be shared among all who are part of the program.

Over the past three years, significant and broad achievement has been made, which proved the initiative's effectiveness and demonstrated its nature that favors common development.

RICH RESULTS

According to a report issued by China's Renmin University at a two-day international seminar that opened on Monday in the northwestern Chinese city of Xi'an, *more than 100 countries and international bodies are currently involved in the initiative, while over 30 countries along the new Silk Road have signed cooperation agreements with Beijing. China is also working with more than 20 nations on industrial capacity projects.*

Among all other things, the most strategic accomplishments have been the successful development policy coordination between China and the countries along the belt and road.

The report said China has already begun the coordination of its signature initiative with the development strategies of many countries involved in the program, including *Kazakhstan's the Bright Road and Russia's Eurasian Economic Union.*

In boosting facility connectivity, China is working with countries and regions in coordinating infrastructure standards, connecting transportation and energy infrastructure, and boosting information connectivity, said the report.

In trade, the past three years have seen China's consistent efforts to join belt and road countries to promote trade and investment activities by negotiating bilateral agreements to remove trade and investment barriers and create a healthy business environment.

*By the end of June, China has signed bilateral investment treaties with 104 countries along the belt and road, while its investment in these countries have totaled 51.1 billion U.S. dollars, said the report. *

To ensure adequate financial support for the initiative, China, said the report, has been vigorously pushing forward financial cooperation with countries joining the initiative*, as well as RMB trade settlement, currency swap*, and other financial services.

The Beijing-based Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), founded at the end of 2015, considers projects related to the initiative as one of its top priorities.

The bank's 509-million-dollar investment in its first four projects, which was approved in late June, and focuses on power, transportation, urban development and other areas, has all gone to countries along the belt and road.

Meanwhile, Beijing has also attached great importance to enhancing cooperation in education, health care, as well as people-to-people and cultural exchanges, an effort to win public support for the implementation of the initiative.

WELL RECEIVED AROUND THE WORLD

Ever since China launched the initiative, it has received positive responses worldwide as Beijing has vowed to promote the program based on mutual benefit and the spirit of inclusiveness as well as sustainable development.

Engstrom Anna, analyst for economics, policy and governance at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, told Xinhua that the initiative certainly is getting a lot of attraction worldwide, adding that everyone is "quite excited" about China's idea.

"We are seeing a lot of cooperation from China in Thailand, Serbia, and Hungry," she said, adding that the most substantial achievement for the initiative is that China has actually bolstered its mutual trust with other countries, which she believes is the foundation for their future cooperation.

Jonathan E. Hillman, fellow and director of the Reconnecting Asia Project, Center for Strategic and International Studies, believes the initiative is "hugely ambitious."

He said many in the West are encouraged by the economic potential, because if it works well, it does benefit all the participants, including the West.

Charles Dkechukwu Onunaiju, director of the center for China studies in Nigeria, said the initiative one of China's most important contribution to human kind in the 21st century, and it presents great opportunity to connect the entire African continent, and the Africans take it very seriously.

CHALLENGES & BRIGHT FUTURE

Still, giant as the Belt and Road Initiative is, there is no doubt that it will have to face and fend off risks and difficult challenges along the way forward.

Engstrom Anna believes* political risk has to be considered*. As many of China's overseas projects under the initiative need many years to finish, they could run into troubles under such a scenario as the change of government in the countries Chinese investors work with.

In Hillman's view, if the initiative to achieve greater success in the future, it needs to set clear priorities, like what kind of projects would be chosen.

"It's like that if you have so many goals, it's hard to implement that. You need to focus on what matters most," he said.

Despite the potential challenges, the initiative is going to have a bright future, for the potential demand is enormous and the benefits are also great for all sides.

According to the AIIB, the belt and road region has about 750 billion dollars for infrastructure a year through 2020.

A recent Bloomberg report said that if these infrastructure investments were to be fully realized, then that would mean 580 million tons in annual cement demands.

The report also said that meeting all of Asia's demand for railways, pipelines and power stations and other projects may generate 272 million tons of demands for steel.

The huge demand in cement and steel bears tremendous opportunities for China to advance industrial capacity cooperation. Those who choose to work with China, especially countries and regions in the less developed world, can use this chance to close up their infrastructure gap to prepare for future economic takeoff.

Moreover, the program could also boost shipping and cargo demands as planned infrastructure investments improve ports that dot the silk route.

***

*China's investment in Belt and Road countries up 38.6 pct*
Source: Xinhua 2016-09-22 

BEIJING, Sept. 22 (Xinhua) -- China's investment in Belt and Road Initiative countries soared 38.6 percent year on year as the country's outbound direct investment (ODI) reached a record high in 2015, official data showed Thursday.

*Investment in Belt and Road countries stood at 18.93 billion U.S. dollars and represented 13 percent of the country's ODI last year, according to Zhang Xiangchen, deputy international trade representative with China's Ministry of Commerce (MOC).*

Zhang told reporters at a news conference that Belt and Road investment is essential to the fast development of China's ODI.

China's ODI hit an all-time high of 145.67 billion U.S. dollars in 2015, exceeding the 135.6 billion in foreign direct investment it received, making it a net capital exporter for the first time, Zhang said.

It is the world's second-largest source of outbound investment, exceeded only by the United States, Zhang said.

The initiative, proposed by President Xi Jinping in 2013, refers to the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road -- a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes.

As of July, Chinese enterprises had established 52 economic cooperation zones in the countries while paying 900 million dollars in taxes and creating nearly 70,000 local jobs.

The MOC said earlier the Belt and Road Initiative had boosted business cooperation between Chinese and foreign firms. During the first eight months of 2016, nearly 4,000 engineering contracts were signed by Chinese companies in 61 countries along the routes, with combined contract value of 69.82 billion U.S. dollars.

China needs to fully take advantage of the international market and resources as its economy and companies transform, said Zhang, adding that Chinese firms are keen to become active players in global innovation, manufacturing and the market.

***

* Media vital for Belt and Road*
By Chen Boyuan
China.org.cn, September 27, 2016
The successful advancement of the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative requires the support of countries along the routes. To achieve that goal, the media should play a bigger role in letting more people know about the strategic initiative and the benefits it will bring.



Fang Zhenghui, vice president of China International Publishing Group, shares his ideas on how media can help with the Belt and Road Initiative on Sept. 26, in Xi'an. [Photo by Chen Boyuan / China.org.cn]

Chinese and international delegates to the International Seminar on the Belt and Road Initiative, opened on Sept. 26 in the ancient Chinese capital Xi'an, agreed that media could help eliminate misunderstandings at the grass roots level and therefore lead to consensuses at the highest levels.

Since September of 2013, mainstream international media outlets have published more than 10,000 reports in English alone on the Belt and Road, according to a study done by the Center for International Communication Studies of the China International Publishing Group (CIPG).

Such high attention on a single topic is unprecedented in the history of media, said Fang Zhenghui, vice president of CIPG at the seminar.

*In another survey conducted by the same agency, people from eight countries, including the United States, Russia, Britain and India, gave 77 points out of 100 for their recognition of the Belt and Road; while 18 countries in the G20 bloc, excluding China, gave 67.6 points for how the Belt and Road could help with peace and development along its routes.*

"The figures show that people are paying more attention to the Belt and Road and giving it positive reviews. It's fair to say that the amicable situation can be attributed to the media's extensive, continuous and in-depth coverage of the Belt and Road these years," said Fang.

Dmitry Strovsky, professor of journalism from Ural Federal University in Russia, expressed concerns about the misconceptions between people due to the lack of proper media coverage.

Speaking at the seminar, he said that media coverage about China is quite limited in Russia, and therefore many Russian people are afraid of Chinese, because they do not know about them. This situation may get more intense since Russian media, like their peers in many other countries, tend to be aggressive in their reports about China, he said.

According to Strovsky, very few people in Russia know about China's Belt and Road. Hence, he called for more media coverage and support to help sustain China-Russia relations, which have been in good standing in recent years.

He believed that the situation is also the same when it comes to the relations between China and other countries on the Belt and Road. In other words, although media does not directly participate in the construction of Belt and Road projects, it has the power to make the construction go smoothly.

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## alaungphaya

Cossack25A1 said:


> http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2016/09/20/malacanang-andanar-duterte-coup-plot.html
> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/coup-detat...philippines-government-issues-warning-1582250
> http://www.rappler.com/nation/146772-palace-investigating-oust-duterte-plot
> 
> 
> 
> 16 million (out of 98 million) Filipinos voted him, and they are are the most vocal in the Internet.



So what are the ruling families in your country planning to do about him?


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## TaiShang

*China expected to take larger role in global governance amid calls for de-globalization: report
September 22, 2016
By Jiang Jie
People's Daily*








China’s provision of public goods to the world is expected to be strengthened, a recent report predicted. It is also expected that China will take a more active role in the global governance process, especially given the current climate of de-globalization.

The short-term plan focuses on promoting the sustainable growth of the global economy, including improvement of the Financial Stability Board, the establishment of a G20 Secretariat and construction of a Belt and Road Initiative “in which China and Asia will play the leading role to reinvigorate the economy and enhance regional cooperation,” according to the States’ Participation Index of Global Governance (SPIGG) World Report, issued on Sept. 22.

"China has benefited from globalization 1.0, wherein international organizations have supported China's development. Now it's an era of globalization 2.0, but the trend of de-globalization has taken shape ... Global governance at this time is no longer about international organizations but also countries. China is playing a more active role in the process," said Wang Huiyao, director of the Center for China and Globalization (CCG).

“Global governance reform requires China to play a role and share its wisdom. It is unimaginable for China to be absent from the world development agenda, climate change talks, IMF reform, counter-terrorism efforts, cyberspace security and other key global governance issues,” the SPIGG report noted, referencing China’s principle of non-interference in internal affairs and the nation’s efforts to bring mutual benefits.

“These two rules are very impressive. I want to point out that we are sticking to our principle of non-interference in internal affairs, but we are also protecting our interests and the safety of our people and property,” said Wang Shijie, former Chinese ambassador to Iran.

“Foreign interference is one of the key causes of chaos in the Middle East, as major nations provoke wars in the region … It will be very crucial for [effective] global economic governance and maintaining stable economic development, as it is also a main reason for the chaos,” Wang said.

Huang Xueqi, former secretary general of the China General Chamber of Commerce, U.S.A., pointed out that China used to avoid speaking out on topics like global governance due to a lack of economic and politic power.

“The fact that we are proposing it proves that we are now capable of contributing on this matter … But how our proposals such as the Belt and Road Initiative turn out is still reliant on national development,” Huang said.

These remarks were made at a seminar held by CCG, the Political Science Institute of East China under the University of Political Science and Law (ECUPL) and China International Publishing Group. The report, compiled by ECUPL, was also released at the seminar.






China currently ranks fourth in the SPIGG report, which analyzes 190 sovereign states across the globe to study their participation in and contribution to global governance. While the average score was 287, China earned a whopping 600.7. China came after only France, the U.K. and the U.S., with the U.S. scoring 770 in total – 108 points higher than its closest competitor.

SPIGG analyzed four main factors: mechanism, performance, decision-making and responsibilities. The organization determined that factors constitute a solid basis for understanding a nation’s role in the world.

While remarkable transformations have lately taken place in economic growth and soft power, a significant gap still remains between China and other Western leaders. Nevertheless, Huo Jianguo, former director of international trade and economic cooperation at the Ministry of Commerce, pointed out that world leadership is something to be gained gradually, through individual cases.

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## Cossack25A1

pr1v4t33r said:


> So, what's your personal opinion about the coup plot? against it or secretly support it?


Even though I am against Duterte's tirades against the US and the UN, I do *not* support any coup plots.



alaungphaya said:


> So what are the ruling families in your country planning to do about him?


None for now despite some rumors of an impeachment.

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## Pinoy

alaungphaya said:


> The rich elite don't I bet. And Philippines is run by a small cabal of rich and powerful families just like other Hispanic legacy countries. They won't stand idly by as their fortunes plummet.


You mean the oligarchs? FYI the Philippines is not as poor as your country or like Cambodia where it killed millions of its people, that never and will never happen in the Philippines, even in Marcos regime... it was just all black propaganda by World media run by the West and antis who are sponsored by oligarchs. God will damn the souls of these evil oligarchs!






Thanks to President Rodrigo Duterte who is waging a war not only against illegal drugs but also against oligarchs whom he described as “monsters.”



madokafc said:


> they worship him right now


The world is so used in seeing dishonest and pretentious leaders that when they see an honest one they all loses their minds. President Duterte is brutally frank, non pretentious, honest president. We (Filipinos) love our President and we are damn proud of him.

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## Three_Kingdoms

*A meeting of two ancient empires: How did two Chinese skeletons find their way into a Roman cemetery in London?*

*Archaeologists analysed 22 skeletons from a Roman cemetery in London *
*The remains were buried there between the 2nd and 4th Centuries AD*
*Two of the skeletons have a morphology that suggests Asian ancestry*
*It suggests the links between China and Rome were stronger than believed*

By RICHARD GRAY FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 09:05 GMT, 23 September 2016 | UPDATED: 15:22 GMT, 23 September 2016
They were two powerful, ancient empires separated by more than 5,000 miles of imposing mountain ranges, barren desert and exposed steppe grasslands.

Yet a collection of seemingly unremarkable bones discovered in a Roman cemetery in London has provided new insights into the links between the Roman Empire and Imperial China.

Analysis has revealed that two skeletons dating from between the 2nd and 4th Century AD unearthed at the site in the city's Southwark area may have been Chinese.

Scroll down for video 





Analysis of skeletons found in a Roman cemetery in south London (pictured) have revealed that two of the people buried there between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD had Asian ancestry and were possibly from China. It provides new evidence of the links between the empires 


*ROMES LINKS WITH CHINA*
They were arguably the two most powerful civilisations of the time.

The Roman conquest of Egypt in 30BC saw trade with China flourish.

While the Silk Road trade route had been delivering cloth, spices and other luxuries to the west for centuries before, the new wealth and fashions of the Roman brought unprecedented demand.

Much of this trade was initially done through Greece and India, but later also through the Parthian Empire.

The Roman Senate, however, saw this trade as a threat on both economic and moral grounds.

Senica the Younger described how silk cloth appeared to have a corrupting influence on the bodies of women and said the material did not 'hide the body, nor even one's decency'. 

The findings promise to rewrite the history of the Romans as it suggests these two great empires had far greater connections than previously believed.

While it is known that there was extensive trade between China and ancient Rome along what became known as the Silk Road, the two empires are thought to have viewed each other warily.

Accounts from the time suggest the Chinese were curious about the 'tall and virtuous' people of Rome, while the Romans found their rivals in the east mysterious but valued their silk cloth.

Despite the trade between the empires, however, only one person of Asian ancestry has ever been found on sites dating back to the Roman Empire – an adult man unearthed at Vagnari in Italy.

But now research led by the Museum of London has revealed two more individuals of Asian ancestry, buried among the remains of other citizens of ancient Londinium.

According to the Times, while experts have not been able to identify their exact origins, it is likely these people had come from China.

Writing in the Journal of Archaeological Science, Dr Rebecca Redfern, an archaeologist at the Museum of London, said how they ended up there is a mystery.

She and her colleagues said: 'The expansion of the Roman Empire across most of western Europe and the Mediterranean, led to the assimilation and movement of many ethnically and geographically diverse communities

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ry-promise-rewrite-history.html#ixzz4LcSJX5bJ 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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## TaiShang

*Alataw Pass: Largest land port on Kazakhstan border in China's Xinjiang

Xinhua | 2016-09-28 *






The Sino-Kazakh boder gate is seen at the Alataw Pass in northwest China's Xinjiang Region, July 28, 2016. (Xinhua/Zhu Xiang)











A railway station is seen at the Alataw Pass in northwest China's Xinjiang Region, July 28, 2016. *China's far western Xinjiang Region is becoming better connected with the international community after the implementation of the Silk Road Economic Belt. *Trade volume at Alataw Pass, the region's largest land port on the Kazakhstan border, reached 25 million tonnes in 2014, after an average annual growth of 27 percent since 1991. (Xinhua/Zhu Xiang)















People do shopping in a market in the Alataw Pass City, northwest China's Xinjiang Region, July 28, 2016. (Xinhua/Zhao Ge)






Wine from Georgia is seen in a store in the bonded zone in Alataw Pass City, northwest China's Xinjiang Region, July 28, 2016. (Xinhua/Zhao Ge)






Camels walk by railway at the Alataw Pass in northwest China's Xinjiang Region, July 28, 2016. (Xinhua/Zhu Xiang)

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## beijingwalker

*Russia Assesses Relations With China as Best in History – Foreign Ministry
23:21 28.09.2016
*
Trust-based relations between Russian and Chinese leaders and unique partnership mechanisms have elevated the countries' relations to the highest level in history, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov said on Wednesday.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – He expressed hope that bilateral relations in different dimensions would develop further. "Russia is sincerely delighted by China’s achievements, who is our strategic partner bilaterally and internationally. We truly appreciate our relations with the People’s Republic of China and consider them as the best in history," Morgunov said on the 67th anniversary of China’s founding. © AP PHOTO/ CHRISTOPHE ENA US Should Work Closely With China, Russia on North Korean Nuclear Issue - Kerry "The defining factor of the success of the relations development has been the establishment of regular, trust-based contacts between the leaders, and the formation of partnership mechanisms that our countries have with no other states," the deputy foreign minister said. In May, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov characterized the state of partnership between Russia and China as the best example of intergovernmental relations.

https://sputniknews.com/world/20160928/1045809761/russia-china-relations.html

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## barbarosa

We pay tribute to both the Nations for their strong relation ship with each others.

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## ahojunk

*China-Eurasia Expo closes, 18 bln USD contracts signed*
2016-09-26 13:12 | Xinhua | _Editor: Xu Shanshan_

A total of 18 billion U. S. dollars worth of contracts were signed during the fifth China-Eurasia Expo in Urumqi, northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.

During the expo, held from September 20 to 25, contracts were signed covering areas such as science, agriculture, mineral resources, energy, manufacturing and finance. A total of 16 corporate finance cooperation projects were signed.

Delegates from 57 countries and regions and six international organizations attended the expo, along with 3,500 professional purchasers. A total of 2,192 companies, including 418 overseas firms, took part in the expo.

The previous expo saw 6 billion U.S. dollars worth of foreign trade contracts signed with Chinese companies.

Li Jingyuan, head of the expo's secretariat, said the expo further strengthened Xinjiang's overseas cooperation, and played an increasingly important role in promoting the Silk Road Economic Belt construction.

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## JayMandan

It's sad but the international community is CLUELESS of what is really going on inside the Philippines.



Pinoy said:


> You mean the oligarchs? FYI the Philippines is not as poor as your country or like Cambodia where it killed millions of its people, that never and will never happen in the Philippines, even in Marcos regime... it was just all black propaganda by World media run by the West and antis who are sponsored by oligarchs. God will damn the souls of these evil oligarchs!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to President Rodrigo Duterte who is waging a war not only against illegal drugs but also against oligarchs whom he described as “monsters.”
> 
> 
> The world is so used in seeing dishonest and pretentious leaders that when they see an honest one they all loses their minds. President Duterte is brutally frank, non pretentious, honest president. We (Filipinos) love our President and we are damn proud of him.

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## ahojunk

Pinoy said:


> The world is so used in seeing dishonest and pretentious leaders that when they see an honest one they all loses their minds. President Duterte is brutally frank, non pretentious, honest president. We (Filipinos) love our President and we are damn proud of him.





JayMandan said:


> It's sad but the international community is CLUELESS of what is really going on inside the Philippines.


.
I enjoy reading your responses which is different to the reports by western media.

Basically, western media is doing a character assassination of Duterte. I don't remember reading a story from western media praising your president.

As usual there are two sides to a story. We should look at both sides before jumping to conclusion.

What matters most is what pinoys think.


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## ahojunk

THE BUZZ
*The Great Russia-China Oil Alliance Is Here (And Why It Matters)*
Tao Wang, Nationalinterest.og
September 30, 2016

China used to call Russia its ‘older brother’. But never again since the fall of the USSR. In an effort to portray its status as a less powerful yet assuredly more senior neighbour, Russian officials have recently begun referring to their country as China’s ‘elder sister’. The new term has proven less popular in China.

Whatever familial phrase these nations eventually settle on, it is increasingly clear to policymakers and analysts that the rapprochement between Moscow and Beijing is one of the most important trends in global politics since 2014. The two powers’ deepening accord has the potential to significantly shift the direction of geopolitics in North and Northeast Asia.

Russia signed a major oil export deal with China in 2009, agreeing to supply 15 million tonnes per annum through the East Siberia–Pacific Ocean pipeline. Since then, China’s energy cooperation with Russia seemed to always leave a bitter taste — until 2014. The catalyst for better relations was the crisis in Ukraine, which estranged Russia from the West. Moscow faced substantial capital outflows and uncertainty around its energy exports to the European Union. China became the only option. Moscow has since opened up to energy investment from China, removing a number of key restrictions on investing in oil and gas resources on Russian soil.

Increasing oil imports from Russia seems to make good sense to the Chinese leadership now that their territorial dispute with multiple countries in the South China Sea is intensifying. The long-argued ‘Malacca dilemma’ — China’s dependence on imports travelling through the narrow Malacca Strait between Malaysia and Indonesia — seems to finally have its manifesto. Despite a lack of real evidence that choking China’s oil imports in the world’s busiest strait is feasible or even possible, Russian oil exported through pipelines and trains certainly looks like a safer option.

For Russia, China’s oil bill has played a key role in holding up the country’s weak economy, especially since the European Union turned its back on Russian gas. But as with all new dancing partners, there are bound to be missteps.

The collapse in oil prices since 2014 surprised both nations and hurt most oil exporters’ economies. Russia has been among the worst hit. Oil and gas exports account for 50 per cent of its federal budget and 70 per cent of export revenues before the collapse of oil prices in 2014. The huge gas deal signed with China in 2014 is price indexed to oil. Though the exact formula has not been revealed, the price informing the agreement would now be in a very different range from when the deal was inked.

China, too, is hardly in economic paradise.

The ‘new normal’ of China’s economic transition is far from stabilized. Premier Li Keqiang has repeatedly called for progress in addressing under-performing ‘zombie’ enterprises and overcapacity in heavy industries. Fiscal and financial measures to ratchet up China’s economy could be directed to innovation and productivity growth, instead of being wasted on putting these incompetent firms on life support. High debt among state-owned enterprises (SOEs) is hurting the government’s ability to propel economic growth while investment from the private sector decelerates sharply.

On the other hand, slow growth in heavy industries has seen China’s diesel demand decline consistently over the last few years. Car-clogged cities and the rise of electric vehicles also suggest dimming prospects for petrol demand growth. *Competition for the Chinese oil market will only get fiercer as oil producers fail to freeze output* and the world’s largest growing market faces huge uncertainty. None of these developments are in Russia’s interests.

But China and Russia’s dance will go on as long the game of international power continues.

*China and Russia are still complementary economies*. One is rich in resources and high military technology, while the other is good at mass manufacturing and rich in cash. This complementarity is well demonstrated by their partnership in Central Asia, where China provides investment in resource-rich yet unpredictable countries while Russia ensures the stability of ruling regimes. Facing increasing pressure from both east and west, it is unlikely that either China or Russia will seek to change this partnership any time soon, though the countries’ willingness and ability may not always match.

Russia has become a surprising beneficiary of China’s deepening oil sector reform. The Chinese government granted approximately 80 million tonnes of crude oil import quota to a number of qualified ‘teapot’ refineries in Shandong province, an area that previously was only open to China’s national oil companies (NOCs). The move was an attempt to introduce an element of competition to the oil sector. As a result, over 90 per cent of China’s oil import growth in the first half of 2016 was driven by these teapot refineries.

*Energy ties between China and Russia reflect mutual demands for cooperation in political, security and economic dimensions. They cannot be viewed as driven by only one of them*.

For both nations, opaque decision-making processes in government as well as in each country’s powerful NOCs mean that good bilateral communication and understanding are not always ensured. Sometimes their interests may be at odds.

Uncertainty surrounding the progress of China’s economic transition, SOE reform and future developments in energy technology could lead to a range of very different scenarios. These developments could either reinforce or destroy energy ties between China and Russia. But in the years to come, the world should not be surprised to see more energy deals signed by these two powers.

_Tao Wang is Assistant Director of the Yicai Research Institute and a non-resident fellow at the Carnegie–Tsinghua Center._

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## ahojunk

China, Mongolia agree to cement comprehensive partnership
2016-10-01 23:30:27 Xinhua Web Editor: Meng Xue

_*




Liu Yunshan (L), a member of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee, meets with Chairman of the Mongolian People's Party (MPP) Miyegombo Enkhbold, who is also chairman of the State Great Hural, Mongolia's parliament, in Ulan Bator, Mongolia,
Oct. 1, 2016. [Photo: Xinhua/Rao Aimin]*_​
Senior Communist Party of China (CPC) official Liu Yunshan met separately with Mongolian president and prime minister on Saturday, signalling a strong desire on both sides to cement ties in a comprehensive manner.

Liu, a member of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee, started his visit to Ulan Bator Saturday morning.

In his meeting with Mongolian President Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj, Liu first conveyed greetings and best regards from Chinese President Xi Jinping.

During the state visit by President Xi in 2014, the two countries upgraded their bilateral relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership and the bilateral ties have since entered a new stage. The momentum should be cherished and maintained, said Liu.

"My visit is to implement the agreements made by top leaders of the two countries, help increase mutual understanding and promote cooperation in a bid to push forward the bilateral comprehensive strategic partnership," said Liu.

Liu stressed that China highly values its relations with Mongolia and regards its ties with Mongolia as an important part of its neighborhood diplomacy.

Respecting each other's core interests lays the political foundation for the healthy and stable development of China-Mongolia relations, said Liu, adding that China respects Mongolia's state sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, as well as the development path chosen by the Mongolian people.

China appreciates Mongolia's stance of upholding the one-China policy, Liu said.

China hopes the two sides will further strengthen political trust, jointly work for better connectivity along the border, enhance cooperation on ports, industrial capacity, and investment, among others, and maintain close coordination on major regional and global issues so as to safeguard common interests.

China is also willing to enhance coordination with Mongolia within the framework of the United Nations and it welcomes the Mongolian side to play a positive role in international and regional affairs.

For his Part, Elbegdorj said Mongolia will unswervingly pursue a friendly policy towards China, and continue to deepen political mutual trust and substantial cooperation with China in various fields.

While during his meeting with Mongolian Prime Minister Jargaltulga Erdenebat, Liu proposed that the two countries deepen exchanges at all levels, work for new progress on major projects, tap their economic complementarity and create a stable and better investment environment.

China encourages cooperation with Mongolia in supporting the Silk Road Fund under the Belt and Road Initiative, said Liu.

Erdenebat spoke highly of the long-term Mongolia-China friendly cooperation, saying Mongolia will actively participate in China's proposals like the Belt and Road Initiative, interconnectivity and production capacity cooperation.

The Mongolian side appreciates China's consistent assistance, and will advance cooperation with China in such areas as mineral resources, infrastructure, currency-swap, farm produce processing and cross-border transportation, said Erdenebat.

Earlier, Liu also met with Chairman of the Mongolian People's Party (MPP) Miyegombo Enkhbold, discussing party-to-party and cultural exchanges. Enkhbold is also chairman of the State Great Hural, Mongolia's parliament.

On the same day, Liu also attended a launch ceremony of a joint cultural program, which introduces Chinese TV dramas to Mongolia.

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## Shotgunner51

*First rail shuttle between Rotterdam and China launches*

Monday 3rd October 2016






The Port of Rotterdam has announced that the first rail service between China and the Netherlands is now in full operation.

The Chengdu-Tilburg-Rotterdam-Express, which was launched by the Chinese rail operator CDiRS, is claimed to reach its destination ‘door-to-door’ in 15 days.

According to the port, while the rail shuttle is currently a weekly service, the CDiRS and its Dutch partner RailPortbrabant aim to increase the service to five times a week starting from late 2017.

The Chinese cities linked by the service include Shanghai, Ningbo, Wuhan, Yiwu, Xiamen, Shenzhen, Nanning and Kunming.

The service, which crosses Kazakhstan and Moscow, also offers railway connections to Vietnam and South Korea.

Allard Castelein, CEO of the Port of Rotterdam Authority, said: “By sea, Rotterdam is already the most important European destination of Chinese cargo. Thanks to this shuttle, we are now also adding a fast connection by land.”

He added: “We strongly believe in this concept, partly because a large part of Europe can efficiently be reached via the excellent short sea connections from Rotterdam. And vice versa, of course.”

Roland Verbraak, general manager of RailPortbrabant’s parent company GVT Group of Logistics, pointed out that cargo from China is often shipped by short sea from the Port of Rotterdam to the UK, Scandinavia and Portugal.

http://container-mag.com/2016/10/03/first-rail-shuttle-rotterdam-china-launches-2/

@ahojunk see whether you wanna merge this with railway or OBOR thread.

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## ahojunk

@Shotgunner51

Let's leave this thread as is, for people to have a discussion.

Will merge later after the discussion (so as to leave the main thread "clean" and as a repository.)

--------

The OBOR or Belt & Road Initiative is fast taking shape.

There are now multiple freight train routes from various cities in China to different cities in Europe. There is also a train service to Afghanistan too!

The main beneficiaries are those countries who are participants of OBOR.

With OBOR, the inland western regions of China are also benefiting.

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## TaiShang

*China promotes sci-tech cooperation along Belt and Road*
*October 04, 2016, Xinhua*


BEIJING, Oct. 4 (Xinhua) -- The Chinese government has released a plan on scientific and technological (S&T) cooperation between China and countries along the Belt and Road.

*China plans to set up joint labs, research centers, tech transfer centers and S&T parks with countries along the Belt and Road in the next three to five years*, according to a document issued by the Ministry of Science and Technology, the National Development and Reform Commission, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Commerce.

*The government also aims to bring over 150,000 S&T personnel from those countries to China for exchanges or training, and expects to receive more than 5,000 young scientists during the same period.*

Basic cooperation plans should be made with key countries, and memorandums or agreements signed, the document read.

According to a mid-term objective set in the document, the government will expand S&T cooperation from surrounding countries to a larger region in the next ten years, assisting cooperation platforms and major projects to make progress.

The Belt and Road initiative refers to the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road, a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes.

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## Devil Soul

*Philippine leader tells Obama 'go to hell', says can buy arms from Russia, China*
RREUTERS
October 04, 2016
WORLD











*MANILA: Philippine leader Rodrigo Duterte on Tuesday told U.S. President Barack Obama to "go to hell" and said the United States had refused to sell some weapons to his country but he did not care because Russia and China were willing suppliers.*

In his latest salvo, Duterte said he was realigning his foreign policy because the United States had failed the Philippines and added that at some point, "I will break up with America". It was not clear what he meant by "break up".

During three tangential and fiercely worded speeches in Manila, Duterte said the United States did not want to sell missiles and other weapons, but Russia and China had told him they could provide them easily.

"Although it may sound shit to you, it is my sacred duty to keep the integrity of this republic and the people healthy," Duterte said.

"If you don't want to sell arms, I'll go to Russia. I sent the generals to Russia and Russia said 'do not worry, we have everything you need, we'll give it to you'.

"And as for China, they said 'just come over and sign and everything will be delivered'."

His comments were the latest in a near-daily barrage of hostility toward the United States, during which Duterte has started to contrast the former colonial power with its geopolitical rivals Russia and China.

When asked about Duterte's comments, U.S. State Department spokesman John Kirby said on Tuesday, "Frankly, it seems at odds with the warm relationship that exists between the Filipino and American people and the record of important cooperation between our two governments, cooperation that has continued under the Duterte government."

*HELL IS FULL*

On Sunday, Duterte said he had received support from Russia and China when he complained to them about the United States. He also said he would review a U.S.-Philippines Enhanced Defence Cooperation Agreement.

The deal, signed in 2014, grants U.S. troops some access to Philippine bases, and allows them to set up storage facilities for maritime security and humanitarian and disaster response operations.

He said the United States should have supported the Philippines in tackling its chronic drugs problems but instead criticized him for the high death toll, as did the European Union.

"Instead of helping us, the first to hit was the State Department. So you can go to hell, Mr Obama, you can go to hell," he said.

"EU, better choose purgatory. Hell is full already. Why should I be afraid of you?"

At a later speech he said he was emotional because the United States had not been a friend of the Philippines since his election in May.

"They just ... reprimand another president in front of the international community," he told the Jewish community at a synagogue.

"This is what happens now, I will be reconfiguring my foreign policy. Eventually, I might in my time I will break up with America."

It was not clear if by his "time", he was referring to his six-year term in office.

According to some U.S. officials, Washington has been doing its best to ignore Duterte's rhetoric and not provide him with a pretext for more outbursts.

While an open break with Manila would create problems in a region where China's influence has grown, there were no serious discussions about taking punitive steps such as cutting aid to the Philippines, two U.S. officials said on Monday.

Several of Duterte's allies on Monday suggested he act more like a statesman because his comments had created a stir. On Tuesday, he said his outbursts were because he was provoked by criticism of his crackdown on drugs.

"When you are already at the receiving end of an uncontrollable rush, the only way out is to insult," he said.

"That is my retaliation."

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## cloud4000

If this is the behavior of Duterte, then what option does US have except to to downgrade their relations with the Philippines. They don't need this headache.

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## X-2.

Why don't the join Chinese belt and take the SCS case back and go along with Chinese alliance for next 100 years


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## Blue Marlin

DAMN !
@James Jaevid what's murica got in store for this guy?


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## X-2.

Blue Marlin said:


> DAMN !
> @James Jaevid what's murica got in store for this guy?


May be democracy is coming to Philippine

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## Blue Marlin

X-2. said:


> May be democracy is coming to Philippine


dont worry were gonna drop the seeds of democracy.


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## Hamartia Antidote

He's going to buy Chinese missiles to defend his territory from the Chinese....

What's the purpose of wanting US missile anyway? (Other than to hand them to the Chinese)

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## X-2.

Blue Marlin said:


> dont worry were gonna drop the seeds of democracy.


Lolz I think 2ladies will do that job.. may and Hilary


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## terranMarine

But first we have to wait and see what actions will follow after some nonstop outbursts. Duterte will have to stick to his words and i hope he is smart enough to distance himself from the US regime. Erdogan learned it the *HARD *way, he should be thankful to Russia for all the assistance and support he had received during the darkest hours of the coup. So throwing insults at the soon out of the office Obama is fine with me, now kick the yankee military out of PH for the 2nd time

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## Russell

Real shame this isn't the 80's...he would already have been taken out by the CIA

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## terranMarine

It tells us alot about an Indian wishing the death upon a PH president

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## Mugwop

The subservient and apologetic politicians of Pakistan can learn something from this guy.

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## dy1022

Great

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## eldamar

cloud4000 said:


> If this is the behavior of Duterte, then what option does US have except to to downgrade their relations with the Philippines. They don't need this headache.



The US dun have to- Duterte already stated he is ready to 'break up' with the US and go into the embrace of CHina. 

PH is jilting her former lover for a new1 



Russell said:


> Real shame this isn't the 80's...he would already have been taken out by the CIA



Hence, American Exceptionalism is gone for good


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## Jlaw

terranMarine said:


> But first we have to wait and see what actions will follow after some nonstop outbursts. Duterte will have to stick to his words and i hope he is smart enough to distance himself from the US regime. Erdogan learned it the *HARD *way, he should be thankful to Russia for all the assistance and support he had received during the darkest hours of the coup. So throwing insults at the soon out of the office Obama is fine with me, now kick the yankee military out of PH for the 2nd time



You know how friends of US evenutally end up?

Osama, Gadaffi, Hussein, Noriega, etc..

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## TaiShang

*Belt & Road will link Nepal with world economy *
By Ritu Raj Subedi, China.org.cn, October 5, 2016

Chairman Mao said: *"Differences between friends cannot but reinforce their friendship."*

Mao's vision of friendship with China's many neighbors finds fitting reflection in the Belt and Road (B&R) initiative, a creative venture that Chinese President Xi Jinping unveiled in 2013.

*It seeks to connect nations and bring immense prosperity to their people through infrastructure development and creation of an integrated trading network spreading from western China to Central Asia, South Asia, the Middle East and even to Europe.*

B&R can be* a socialist-driven globalization process* intended *to remove inequality created by freewheeling capitalism.* This premise is implied by the fact that China has committed itself to peaceful rise and respect for the sovereignty of other nations.

It has set aside US$40 billion to start a process that includes 3.8 billion people living in 60 countries once lying along or adjacent to the original Silk Road. The newly launched Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is expected to be a major provider of the money.

"B&R is a policy framework that incorporates myriad development projects, and countries like Nepal should proactively seek to benefit from it," says Dr Upendra Gautam, general secretary at the China Study Center.

He notes that integrating Nepal into the B&R really means integration into the global economy, thus "opening up new opportunities for Nepal."

A replication of the ancient Silk Road, B&R is "rooted in history and oriented toward the future." Nepal had a special relationship with the ancient Silk Road, and it is widely believed Buddhism initially travelled along the route to reach China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Thailand and other Asian nations. Certainly, the ancient Silk Road contributed to Nepal's prosperity many centuries ago.

*Nepal has taken formal steps to be part of B&R, the 21st century version of the ancient Silk Road. Its connection to the modern version is through the Tibet of China.* *Nepal could serve as a gateway to South Asia when the B&R vision comes to fruition.*

During former Prime Minister K.P. Sharma Oli's visit to China last March, Nepal and China inked a landmark deal on trade and transit arrangements, and agreed to enhance connectivity as part of the B&R project.

*Point 5 of the 15-point joint statement issued then reads: "Both sides agreed to seek synergy in development planning, formulate appropriate bilateral cooperation programs and carry out major projects under the framework of the Belt and Road initiative. The Chinese side agreed to accelerate the feasibility study of the Araniko Highway Repair and Maintenance Project and the Repair and Maintenance Project of the Syaphrubesi-Rasuwagadhi Highway, and build a bridge over the Karnali River at Hilsa of Pulan/Yari port."*

In order to give flesh to their agreement, Nepal and China should jointly work to build road networks through the border passes of Olangchungola (5,095 m), Kimathanka (2,248 m), Lapche (4,091 m), Tatopani (2,515 m), Rasuwagahdi (1,983 m), Larke(5,135 m), Kor La (4,817 m), Hilsa (5,012 m) and Tinker(5,703 m).

The document "Envisioning Nepal 2030" of Nepal's Planning Commission states: "To promote growth, Nepal needs to be the connection and trading route not just between India and China but of South Asia as a whole. Capitalizing on its historic linkages, Nepal needs to conduct an in-depth study of reviving the South Western Silk Road (circular silk way)."

The Belt and Road initiative is expected to promote the country's immense potential in trade, tourism, water resources and transportation through technology transfers, high standard infrastructure and labor mobility.

"The B&R strategy will help Nepal connect to the global value chain by developing world class infrastructure," says Prof. Dr. Surya Raj Acharya, an infrastructure expert.

*Former Nepalese ambassador to China, Rajeshwar Acharya, and Dr Gautam suggest creating a sub-regional group comprising Nepal, Bhutan and India's northwest, Tibet and Sichuan Province based on the BCIM (Bangladesh, China, India and Myanmar) model in order to serve as a gateway to both Southeast and South Asia under the Belt and Road initiative.*

The B&R initiative is also about promoting cultural understanding. Nations around the Himalayas have a large number of Buddhist followers, and development of the Trans-Himalayan Buddhist pilgrimage will bring them together. This requires opening Trans-Himalaya railway services connecting Nepal with China, then with the Buddhist sub-circuit.

Nepal aspires to reap benefits from the B&R initiative, but chronic political instability has posed a stumbling block. The absence of a coherent foreign policy and lukewarm response to China's initiative among politicians and bureaucracy could deprive the country of significant gains.

The media reported that President Xi's proposed visit to Nepal was put off after China sensed that Nepal's preparations to implement the Belt and Road initiative were not up to scratch. Nepal mustn't delay in carrying out the necessary works to implement the project, because it cannot afford to let it slip through its fingers.

_Ritu Raj Subedi is an associate editor of The Rising Nepal._

_Opinion articles reflect the views of their authors, not necessarily those of China.org.cn._

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## TaiShang

terranMarine said:


> But first we have to wait and see what actions will follow after some nonstop outbursts. Duterte will have to stick to his words and i hope he is smart enough to distance himself from the US regime. Erdogan learned it the *HARD *way, he should be thankful to Russia for all the assistance and support he had received during the darkest hours of the coup. So throwing insults at the soon out of the office Obama is fine with me, now kick the yankee military out of PH for the 2nd time



Let's see his first foreign visit to, allegedly, China and Japan or Russia. That will be of great significance. If Duterte receives Russian and Chinese backing long with a not too distanced relationship with Japan, that would be enough security in the absence of (and hostility from) the US.

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## TaiShang

eldarlmari said:


> Nepal needs China more then China needs her(if ever).









I agree.Nepal appears not to have a particular geographical depth but, a good friend is always preferable over a distanced (or hostile) one.

B&R is first and foremost a Eurasia-oriented project with focus on land and sea linkages with Europe. But, the regional context cannot be ignored if it is going to, as claimed, fix the shortcomings of the first globalization wave.

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## TaiShang

*West fabricates China-Russia spy scandals *
Source: Global Times, Published: 2016/9/26 

Russian space scientist Vladimir Lapygin was sentenced earlier this month to seven years in prison on charges of state treason, according to Western media outlets. He allegedly provided aerospace technology intelligence to an Asian country, which media outlets claimed is China. 

According to reports, Lapygin worked for the Central Research Institute of Machine Building under the Roscosmos space agency and taught at Moscow's Bauman State Technical Institute. 

As top secrets were involved, coverage of this case inevitably has been tinged by speculation. Some Chinese scholars told the Global Times that the Western media is keen on reporting spy cases between China and Russia, often with exaggerated and even fake content. 

*Certain pro-Western forces in both Chinese and Russian society are also keen on finding fault with the Sino-Russian relationship.*

Scholars point out that there is no reason to make a fuss even if there is espionage between the two countries, as every nation, especially major powers, has a need for intelligence. China and Russia have managed the related affairs well. Espionage is not an obstacle for the two sides to deepen their comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination.

*In comparison, the scandal over the US Prism system caused rifts between the US and its allies, which protested strongly over US bugging of their state leaders. China and Russia have never openly accused each other of espionage since President Vladimir Putin took office for his first term. *

Russia has put more efforts, including tightening laws, into safeguarding its national secrets in recent years. Some Russian scientists who are active in foreign exchanges may feel they can't adapt to the changes. *Some Western media outlets criticize the Kremlin for its strengthened internal governance and even politicize it, but Chinese public opinion has never hyped the issue.*

China and Russia have seen expanding cooperation and thus more frequent communications in the science sector recently, including joint research in aerospace and other areas. Official information exchanges remain the mainstream in bilateral relations. *China "stealing" Russia's technology, and Russia shielding its technological secrets from China is not happening between the two countries.*

Beijing and Moscow are stable strategic partners. Neither country attempts to steal intelligence to subvert or contain the other. The intelligence agencies of the two countries have friendly, not confrontational, relations.

*Bilateral ties between the US and Russia, and between the US and China, are constantly soured by spy-related conflicts. Mutual respect between Beijing and Moscow thus stands out. *

The China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination is a pillar of global strategic balance. Both countries should be careful not to be misled by Western reports which are constantly released to derail Sino-Russian relations deliberately.

@vostok

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## eldamar

http://eng.belta.by/economics/view/...opportunities-for-europe-and-asia-95079-2016/

Opinion: The One Belt, One Road initiative will open new opportunities for Europe and Asia Economy 
04.10.2016 | 19:31

MINSK, 4 October (BelTA) – The One Belt, One Road initiative will open new opportunities for Europe and Asia in the sphere of transport and logistics. Latvian Transport Minister Uldis Augulis made the statement during the conference on the role of the China-Belarus industrial park Great Stone in the development of the Belarusian transport and logistics system in Minsk on 4 October, BelTA has learned. The conference was held as part of the Belarusian Transport Week. 

The Latvian Transport Minister said that the construction of the China-Belarus industrial park has been an important item on the agenda of the Latvian transport and logistics industry for quite some time. “Nobody is going to deny the fact that China's One Belt, One Road initiative is extremely important for connecting the continents of Europe and Asia. The initiative will open new opportunities in transport and logistics. And the Great Stone park is an important stage in this initiative,” explained Uldis Augulis. 

The Latvian Transport Minister noted that the Chinese initiative is unparalleled on the global scale. It makes one think about new approaches to logistics planning, said Uldis Augulis. He said that Latvia suggests two cooperation areas to Belarus and China — logistics and merchandise distribution. 

The official also reminded that Belarus and Latvia have already implemented successful transport and logistics projects, in particular, the Zubr container train. “We are now working to expand the route to Georgia and Turkey,” he said. 

The Belarusian Transport Week is scheduled to take place in Minsk on 4-6 October. It will include the tenth Belarusian Transport and Logistics Congress and the tenth international expo Transport & Logistics 2016. Delegations from and representatives of 11 countries — Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Austria, France, Sweden, Germany, and China — are taking part in the Belarusian Transport Week. 

About 70 organizations from nine countries are taking part in the expo Transport & Logistics 2016. The number includes transport and logistics operators, manufacturers and dealers of automobiles, logistics hub equipment vendors, insurance companies, sea port administrations, railway administrations from CIS and non-CIS states. 

Apart from stands dedicated to individual companies the expo features a national stand of Latvia, a collective stand of the Klaipeda port and the port companies, a collective stand of Ukrainian Railways. ZAO SkyWay Technologies and OAO Belkommunmash (E433 Vitovt Max Electro electric bus) are showcasing innovative products, which were initially unveiled during Europe's largest international expo InnoTrans in Berlin.

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## anon45

If Duterte is planning to ally with Russia and China, what the F is he asking for US missiles for? Im glad that we refused to sell even semi-modern weapons to the Philippines that got his panties in a wad, as it is they are a potential security risk. 

Funny enough, Duterte is currently talking a big game, but i'm still waiting for it to translate into action. When will he cut trade ties with the US and EU? Less talk, more action.

He can buy weapons from whoever, if he's planning on antagonizing the US in international waters it wont help him, and if he's planning on cozying up with China I question his need for missiles in the first place.


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## eldamar

TaiShang said:


> I agree.Nepal appears not to have a particular geographical depth but, a good friend is always preferable over a distanced (or hostile) one.
> 
> B&R is first and foremost a Eurasia-oriented project with focus on land and sea linkages with Europe. But, the regional context cannot be ignored if it is going to, as claimed, fix the shortcomings of the first globalization wave.



Atually, how if Nepal is gonna be part of obor, is she gonna be a land obor terminus or a linkage downwards, by land- to India(who is also part of maritime obor. E.g Kolkata)?

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## eldamar

anon45 said:


> If Duterte is planning to ally with Russia and China, what the F is he asking for US missiles for? Im glad that we refused to sell even semi-modern weapons to the Philippines that got his panties in a wad, as it is they are a potential security risk.
> 
> Funny enough, Duterte is currently talking a big game, but i'm still waiting for it to translate into action. When will he cut trade ties with the US and EU? Less talk, more action.
> 
> He can buy weapons from whoever, if he's planning on antagonizing the US in international waters it wont help him, and if he's planning on cozying up with China I question his need for missiles in the first place.



Less talk, more action?

You're quoting a national leader- not a small time politician. If he had the guts to flip the bird at the EU and the US on TV, as well as sanctioning the deaths of thousands of drug offenders/pushers- u think he would not stick to his words?









And guess what? I just found out this myself:

http://www.cninfo360.com/sjdt/20160121/410279.html

*罗德里戈&#8226;迪泰特简介 菲律宾总统竞选人：*祖父是中国人* 无意与中国开战(图)*


*= Grandfather is a Chinese*_(Duterte's)_

*他补充道，自己的祖父是中国人，他不想跟中国开战，因为在福建的表亲不想战争。*

*=*

*'he stressed that his own grandfather was a mainland Chinese*_(likely a Chinese immigrant to the PH, like the rest of the Chinese diaspora)_* and do not wish to get involved in a war with China. That's because his relatives in Fujian*_(province)_* do not want war*_(with Duterte)_*.'*

This makes Duterte a part-Overseas Chinese himself.

No wonder he's pro-China

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## Place Of Space

anon45 said:


> If Duterte is planning to ally with Russia and China, what the F is he asking for US missiles for? Im glad that we refused to sell even semi-modern weapons to the Philippines that got his panties in a wad, as it is they are a potential security risk.
> 
> Funny enough, Duterte is currently talking a big game, but i'm still waiting for it to translate into action. When will he cut trade ties with the US and EU? Less talk, more action.
> 
> He can buy weapons from whoever, if he's planning on antagonizing the US in international waters it wont help him, and if he's planning on cozying up with China I question his need for missiles in the first place.



You talk horse, dude, it's the USA needs the Philippines, for the wot pivot purpose. Duterte is smart, he knows clearly at the time what the America seek to beg from his country.

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## Place Of Space

eldarlmari said:


> Atually, how if Nepal is gonna be part of obor, is she gonna be a land obor terminus or a linkage downwards, by land- to India(who is also part of maritime obor. E.g Kolkata)?



Nepal is insignificant however.


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## Beast

cloud4000 said:


> If this is the behavior of Duterte, then what option does US have except to to downgrade their relations with the Philippines. They don't need this headache.


The US still need to bend down to Philippine despite all this humiliation. The US desperate needs Philippine for US anti China campaign. 

If Duterte wants US president to kneel before him. THe president need to do it. Without Philippine, US evil anti China campaign will never succeed.

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## TaiShang

eldarlmari said:


> Atually, how if Nepal is gonna be part of obor, is she gonna be a land obor terminus or a linkage downwards, by land- to India(who is also part of maritime obor. E.g Kolkata)?



The actual development of the B&R has very little to do with this map. This map does not reflect the ground reality. There is, for example, no OBOR related linkage between Iran and Turkey.

Nepal can be a land linkage, not a terminus.



Place Of Space said:


> Nepal is insignificant however.



Greater trade flow is never insignificant, regardless of the size of a nation.

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## Filipino

anon45 said:


> If Duterte is planning to ally with Russia and China, what the F is he asking for US missiles for? Im glad that we refused to sell even semi-modern weapons to the Philippines that got his panties in a wad, as it is they are a potential security risk.


He didn't ask for it, he was referencing the efforts of past administrations to get modern weaponry that never went anywhere. For example, there was an attempt in the late 90s to acquire fighters from Israel that got blocked by US congress (because of American technology in the fighters) because the US Gov't wanted to sell them embargoed Pakistani F-16s instead. Then that also didn't work out and the Philippines was left with its worn-out F-5As (not even Es) until they had to be grounded in 2003.

I'm pro-US and a naturalized American, but I could see (and dread) a realignment from a mile way. It's disappointing to say the least.

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## gambit

anon45 said:


> If Duterte is planning to ally with Russia and China, what the F is he asking for US missiles for? Im glad that we refused to sell even semi-modern weapons to the Philippines that got his panties in a wad, as it is they are a potential security risk.
> 
> Funny enough, Duterte is currently talking a big game, but i'm still waiting for it to translate into action. When will he cut trade ties with the US and EU? *Less talk, more action.*
> 
> He can buy weapons from whoever, if he's planning on antagonizing the US in international waters it wont help him, and if he's planning on cozying up with China I question his need for missiles in the first place.


The US should accommodate that 'more action'. Weapons purchase from China does not mean the Filipinos like China.

China do not need the Philippines' compliance to further secure the SCS. A weakened Philippines will do just fine and it already that weakened. So if the US begins our withdrawal from the Philippines, as the country's economic conditions deteriorate, the Filipinos will turn against Duterte. Once Duterte is ousted, and only after bloodshed because people like him, re Venezuela, once they have a taste of power, they will do everything they can to keep it, the US can return with the typical 'I told you so.'

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## gambit

scope said:


> Why are you throwing a tantrum? *This is what Western liberal democracy is all about - the right to choose one's own path.* With 90+ % approval rating, he seems to be doing what his people want. I wish him every success.


You are correct.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/7279

Chavez's approval rating was pretty high.


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## Place Of Space

eldarlmari said:


> Less talk, more action?
> 
> You're quoting a national leader- not a small time politician. If he had the guts to flip the bird at the EU and the US on TV, as well as sanctioning the deaths of thousands of drug offenders/pushers- u think he would not stick to his words?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And guess what? I just found out this myself:
> 
> http://www.cninfo360.com/sjdt/20160121/410279.html
> 
> *罗德里戈&#8226;迪泰特简介 菲律宾总统竞选人：*祖父是中国人* 无意与中国开战(图)*
> 
> 
> *= Grandfather is a Chinese*_(Duterte's)_
> 
> *他补充道，自己的祖父是中国人，他不想跟中国开战，因为在福建的表亲不想战争。*
> 
> *=*
> 
> *'he stressed that his own grandfather was a mainland Chinese*_(likely a Chinese immigrant to the PH, like the rest of the Chinese diaspora)_* and do not wish to get involved in a war with China. That's because his relatives in Fujian*_(province)_* do not want war*_(with Duterte)_*.'*
> 
> This makes Duterte a part-Overseas Chinese himself.
> 
> No wonder he's pro-China



Geez! Why every Pinoy president claims he has a Chinese father or grandfather! But we didn't know we had such grand sons.

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## James David

Blue Marlin said:


> DAMN !
> @James Jaevid what's murica got in store for this guy?



Just wait for it.. He will come to Daddy once he is out of options. American Aid comes with coke, McDonalds, 7/11s, Hilton Hotels (that includes Paris), and with the Chinese comes.. well the Chinese.

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## cloud4000

eldarlmari said:


> You're quoting a national leader- not a small time politician. If he had the guts to flip the bird at the EU and the US on TV, as well as sanctioning the deaths of thousands of drug offenders/pushers- u think he would not stick to his words?



His tough guy act might work for the domestic audience, but it's toxic on the international level where he's dealing with other leaders. 

I've seen Duterte before. Popular at first, hated later. His type always overstay their welcome.



Beast said:


> The US still need to bend down to Philippine despite all this humiliation. The US desperate needs Philippine for US anti China campaign.
> 
> If Duterte wants US president to kneel before him. THe president need to do it. Without Philippine, US evil anti China campaign will never succeed.



In this case Duterte is a fool. If the whole point was to leverage his relationship with US he's going about the worst way possible. What kind of a negotiator insults the people he negotiates with? Even Duterte's allies and supporters have told him to be more a statesman than a jackass.

All he's doing is making it easier for the US.

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## gambit

James Jaevid said:


> Just wait for it.. He will come to Daddy once he is out of options. American Aid comes with coke, McDonalds, 7/11s, Hilton Hotels (that includes Paris), and with the Chinese comes.. well the Chinese.


China will not help.

If you help your neighbor A, it is not because you have something against B and you want A's help. If your neighbor A's house is damaged by a fire, you help out of compassion and with no desire for anything in return.

For so often in international politics, that is not how countries interact with each other. We want an alliance with the Philippines. We give all sorts of aid. But precisely because we seek to contain the Soviet Union and/or China, we want an alliance with the Philippines. An alliance carries duties, responsibilities, and privileges.

If my neighbor's house got damaged in a fire and I helped his family, that does not mean I have incurred any kind of responsibilities for him and his family.

China is already busy and financially burdened in Africa to the point that some have called Africa China's colonial outpost. Does anyone here, particularly the forum's Filipino members, really believe that a US withdrawal will automatically bring in China as replacement ? Why should China incur for herself political and potentially even military duties for the Philippines ?

There will be no China-Philippines political alliance. China will do nothing other than sell the Philippines whatever Duterte want. Note I said Duterte, not the Philippines. As the Philippines weakens, she will decrease her influence in the SCS issue, leaving China stronger in the sea immediately off the Philippines' coast.

Duterte is being shortsighted and behind closed Politburo doors, China is laughing at the Philippines.

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## Zsari

James Jaevid said:


> Just wait for it.. He will come to Daddy once he is out of options. American Aid comes with coke, McDonalds, 7/11s, Hilton Hotels (that includes Paris), and with the Chinese comes.. well the Chinese.



You need aid paid in coke, McDonald, etc? Those are business and merchandise that come with a business friendly environment with or without aid. What US aid will bring is US troop and a boss who will constantly tell you what you can and cannot do. What Chinese aid will bring are railway, schools, and hospitals. As to Chinese, Philippines is already full of Chinese anyway. Even Duerte claim Chinese ancestry, so did Aquino.

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## Sanchez

James Jaevid said:


> Just wait for it.. He will come to Daddy once he is out of options. American Aid comes with coke, McDonalds, 7/11s, Hilton Hotels (that includes Paris), and with the Chinese comes.. well the Chinese.



You are right. American aid comes with junk food while the president Mr D stated it clearly that he wants Chinese dishes. Well, I guess that even Ms Clinton would have to come to China for her eternally loved things. Nowadays, nothing can be fixed in the US. You know it...

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## eldamar

cloud4000 said:


> His tough guy act might work for the domestic audience, but it's toxic on the international level where he's dealing with other leaders.
> 
> I've seen Duterte before. Popular at first, hated later. His type always overstay their welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> In this case Duterte is a fool. If the whole point was to leverage his relationship with US he's going about the worst way possible. What kind of a negotiator insults the people he negotiates with? Even Duterte's allies and supporters have told him to be more a statesman than a jackass.
> 
> All he's doing is making it easier for the US.



So any1 who antagonises the US is a fool?


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## cloud4000

eldarlmari said:


> So any1 who antagonises the US is a fool?



No. Just Duterte.


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## Beast

gambit said:


> China will not help.
> 
> If you help your neighbor A, it is not because you have something against B and you want A's help. If your neighbor A's house is damaged by a fire, you help out of compassion and with no desire for anything in return.
> 
> For so often in international politics, that is not how countries interact with each other. We want an alliance with the Philippines. We give all sorts of aid. But precisely because we seek to contain the Soviet Union and/or China, we want an alliance with the Philippines. An alliance carries duties, responsibilities, and privileges.
> 
> If my neighbor's house got damaged in a fire and I helped his family, that does not mean I have incurred any kind of responsibilities for him and his family.
> 
> China is already busy and financially burdened in Africa to the point that some have called Africa China's colonial outpost. Does anyone here, particularly the forum's Filipino members, really believe that a US withdrawal will automatically bring in China as replacement ? Why should China incur for herself political and potentially even military duties for the Philippines ?
> 
> There will be no China-Philippines political alliance. China will do nothing other than sell the Philippines whatever Duterte want. Note I said Duterte, not the Philippines. As the Philippines weakens, she will decrease her influence in the SCS issue, leaving China stronger in the sea immediately off the Philippines' coast.
> 
> Duterte is being shortsighted and behind closed Politburo doors, China is laughing at the Philippines.



Duterte is seeking the economic finance that US cannot provided, from China. And China has demonstrated the capabilities in Laos, Cambodia and Africa.

https://defence.pk/threads/ethiopia-djibouti-railway-the-tazara-railway-in-a-new-era.453681/

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## terranMarine

The deal Aquino made with the US didn't come to fruition. Aquino expected the US to fully back him up in case a war broke out in SCS with China. Lets not forget he also expected to come out victorious from the outcome of this "international court" *cough, cough* So how exactly did it play out for PH? After a swift demonstration by the PLA revealing some of its muscles to the world, the Americans were quickly lowering their stance in order to avoid reaching a point of no return. Yeah yeah Obama and Abe made some noises calling China to respect the outcome but did the international community back them up? The answer is *NO* , 60-70 countries sided with China. Did US keep sending bombers and destroyers near SCS? *NO* Basically China told the US *F*CK YOU* . Aquino was left with a hefty bill of > $30 million, that's right that's a huge amount of cash which could have been spend on infrastructure but instead he bought thin air 

Duterte asked Kerry what are you gonna do with the bill? The bill is PH's responsibility said Kerry 
Now Duterte is totally fed up with the Yankees and calling that son of a whore to remind his own business adding another *F*CK YOU EU and GO TO HELL OBAMA
*
Vietnam was hoping to see some firework in SCS but after seeing the lame attitude from US and the uncertain future of TPP, she decided to kowtow to China 

Duterte is right US is broke and China has the moolah, learn your place in the hierarchy and China will hand out carrots not sticks.

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## gambit

Beast said:


> Duterte is seeking the economic finance that US cannot provided, from China. And China has demonstrated the capabilities in Laos, Cambodia and Africa.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/ethiopia-djibouti-railway-the-tazara-railway-in-a-new-era.453681/


Cannot or will not ? You are confused between the two.

Anyway...Economic assistance is not the same as having duties and responsibilities as outlined in an alliance. Like my example if my neighbor's house is damaged in a fire, if I feed his family, that is 'economic assistance'. I can even put his family in my home for a few days. But that is a far cry from having to be *LEGALLY* responsible for taking his children to school, give them medicines, or take his wife to the market.

China will do just enough to make gullible Filipinos, like Duterte, thinks China cares, then at the right time, as in when Duterte and his cronies ran the country's economy to the ground, China will withdraw. It will be a wise decision because aid cost the least when the country, or the person, is able to fend for itself. Look at Venezuela. Where is either Russia or China ? Your China is in Africa, so certainly the Western Hemisphere is no problem.

But if China get involve with Venezuela at the time when this is getting more and more common...

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2016/10/03/91511734/


> Venezuelan Child Nearly Dies from Scraped Knee



...China will be incurring a responsibility, ranging from political to military to humanitarian, that will take yrs to have any return, if there any return at all.

So all you PDF Chinese can do is crow about how much China can do here and there, but until your China is willing to take on responsibilities the way the US have for decades...

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## Götterdämmerung

I see the US shills getting their knickers in a knot.

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## TaiShang

With China's aid (which China does not call 'aid' but 'cooperation') comes infrastructure and development. Better future for kids. Clean streets. Decent infrastructure. Sustainable public transportation.

With US aid (which is mostly in military terms) comes filth, rape, moral degradation, murder, disease and lots of out of wedlock kids of mixed variety with no father to be seen nearby.

US has never been a force for good. It is the most militarist regime of the past century.



terranMarine said:


> Duterte is right US is broke and China has the moolah, learn your place in the hierarchy and China will hand out carrots not sticks.



US cannot sustain a developmentalist diplomacy because it lacks capacity and capability. Duterte cannot feed people with US military junk, he needs jobs, sanitation, streets clean from crimes and people clean from drugs.

Duterte does not wish to end up like a bad copy of Detroit.

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## gambit

TaiShang said:


> Duterte does not wish to end up like a bad copy of Detroit.


Actually...The Philippines is worse than Detroit. 

- Most of population is under the poverty level and millions of Filipino men are overseas because there are little opportunities at home.

- While the Mayor of Detroit works with the police, Duterte is calling for literally a national war against drug dealers and what he allows further enforce the perception of entrenched corruption in the government.

- The Philippines is too capital poor to exploit the suspected wealth in the SCS, but if there are capital, corruption would siphon large amount of wealth away from the people.

More like Detroit is working not to be like the the Philippines. But by all means, our Filipino members are free to cheer for China and Duterte's imaginary independent foreign policies, which we all know mean does not exist.


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## TaiShang

*Russian-Chinese Business Is Surging*

Russian exports to China topped $33 billion in 2015

Sofia Pale (New Eastern Outlook)





Originally appeared at *New Eastern Outlook
*
Russian President, Vladimir Putin, was the key player at the G20 Summit that took place in September 2016 in China. This was due to not only political reasons: the Russian leader managed to garner extra popularity with international media outlets all because of an unexpected gift – a box of Russian ice cream, which Mr Putin personally presented to the President of the People’s Republic of China Xi Jinping. “Your ice cream tastes better because your cream is thicker,” announced the grateful host of the Summit. It is not a surprise that this situation will be beneficial to Russian ice cream producers, who will immediately take this opportunity and begin supplying their product to the Chinese market at an accelerated rate (currently, just a few tons are supplied every year, although the Russian product has carved out a niche).

This minor episode illustrates a smooth turnaround of the Russian market in the export of goods to the East. Despite a number of challenges related to business practices, language and cultural barriers, trade between Russia and its most important Eastern partner, China, is currently developing quite successfully.

Official data reports that* in 2015, exports from Russia to China amounted to $33 billion, and Russia was ranked 16th in China’s top 20 trade partners. At the same time, China remains Russia’s main export partner.*

Currently, *about 30% of Russian exports to China are food products that are enjoying a growing demand.* China primarily buys Russian fish and meat products. However, amidst the healthy nutrition trend of the Chinese, combined with the fact that China traditionally does not breed cows, the Russian dairy products are taking the first place. Common milk from the country, not soymilk, is considered in China to be one of the healthiest products for which enthusiasts of healthy lifestyles are willing to pay considerable amounts of money.

Apart from dairy products, in the 2015-2016 period, *exports of the Russian chocolate, sunflower oil, beer and honey from Russia to China have sharply increased.* High demand for these products is explained by the fact that the Russian products contain a lot more natural ingredients that their Chinese analogues.

According to the 2015 results, in addition to the growing popularity of Russian food products, another most lucrative export to China was amber. Amber products are of high demand in China, as they are a symbol of wealth, prosperity, and well-being. The Chinese are willing to pay real money for symbolisms. For example, the prices of Russian amber soared by 60% over the past year. At the same time, the number of buyers from China hasn’t diminished.

*Energy carriers and raw commodities account for the remaining 70% of Russian exports to China.* Russia supplies electric power, oil, gas, timber and natural resources (especially non-ferrous metals) to China. all leading Russian companies are represented at the Chinese raw materials market.

*In 2016, Russia has become the largest oil exporter to China.* Rosneft supplies 75% of black gold consumed by the PRC on the Chinese market. *Meanwhile, the volume of oil supplies from Saudi Arabia to China has turned out to be 7 times lower.* *The victory in the competition with Saudi Arabia, which until recently had been the major oil supplier to China, caused the increase in Rosneft’s stock price by more than 30% over the first half of 2016.*

Another major Russian company – Gazprom, is constructing the Power of Siberia gas pipeline to provide an unprecedented gas supply to China. The project, which shall be implemented by 2021, is expected to bring substantial profit to the Russian economy.

However, the trade partnership with China is not limited to only the export of Russian agricultural products and raw materials.* Among other things, Russia is expanding its cooperation with the PRC in the field of the outer space development.* Thus, following successful negotiations in summer of 2016 on intellectual property protection in space-rocket technologies, Russia is ready to supply RD-18 rocket engines, which have no analogues in the world. The USA is also buying up these engines for use in its Atlas 5 missile carriers.* It should be noted that the Russian side is interested in involving its Chinese colleagues to the use of the recently constructed Vostochny Cosmodrome, which was successfully launched in April 2016, just 100 kilometres from the Chinese border.*

After the G20 Summit in September 2016, a breakthrough in the cooperation between Russia and China in the financial sphere is expected.* By the end of the year, the Russian Vnesekonombank (VEB – Foreign Trade Bank) will for the first time begin issuing bonds in yuan. *This will be the first time that such loans are issued in the Chinese currency. *In particular, under the Eastern Economic Forum that took place in September 2016, VEB signed an agreement with 10 Chinese commercial banks on acquiring a syndicated loan worth 10 billion yuan (about $1.5 billion).* This transaction means that the Russian banking system has acquired one more foreign investor in one of the three reserve currencies. On October 1, 2016, the yuan will get 10.92% of the International Monetary Fund reserve currency, and shall be ranked the third most valuable currency after the dollar (41.73%) and the euro (30.93%).

*Moreover, this year, about 20 Russian companies, including financial institutions, industrial enterprises, and government departments, will place bonds worth about $300 million on the Chinese stock market.* This seems to not be a great deal so far, but this market segment has started to develop. Until 2015, foreign investors were not allowed on the Chinese bond market. However, the yuan bond market has been running for 11 years, with its profitability reaching about 20% a year just recently. Consequently, the entry of Russian business on the Chinese bond market presents very attractive prospects.

In conclusion, it should be noted that China is a vast, unexplored territory, which Russian businesses are willing to discover. The entrance of Russian companies onto Chinese markets marks the beginning of a new era in Russia-China relations. It is a well-known fact that economic cooperation also calls for political and cultural convergence. This means that the two giants – Russia and China, will both benefit immensely under conditions of peace and stability in the entire Asia-Pacific region.

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## royalharris

gambit said:


> So all you PDF Chinese can do is crow about how much China can do here and there, but until your China is willing to take on responsibilities the way the US have for decades...


As a world policeman? play regime change games?
No, it is your job.
We are not interested to share your privilege

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## gambit

It is funny that when it comes to the US, we must listen to world opinions.

But now world opinions is against Duterte, he is applauded for being independent, and for an Asian country, the cheering takes a racist turn as he is not doing what the white Europeans and Americans want.


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## Jlaw

eldarlmari said:


> Less talk, more action?
> 
> You're quoting a national leader- not a small time politician. If he had the guts to flip the bird at the EU and the US on TV, as well as sanctioning the deaths of thousands of drug offenders/pushers- u think he would not stick to his words?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And guess what? I just found out this myself:
> 
> http://www.cninfo360.com/sjdt/20160121/410279.html
> 
> *罗德里戈&#8226;迪泰特简介 菲律宾总统竞选人：*祖父是中国人* 无意与中国开战(图)*
> 
> 
> *= Grandfather is a Chinese*_(Duterte's)_
> 
> *他补充道，自己的祖父是中国人，他不想跟中国开战，因为在福建的表亲不想战争。*
> 
> *=*
> 
> *'he stressed that his own grandfather was a mainland Chinese*_(likely a Chinese immigrant to the PH, like the rest of the Chinese diaspora)_* and do not wish to get involved in a war with China. That's because his relatives in Fujian*_(province)_* do not want war*_(with Duterte)_*.'*
> 
> This makes Duterte a part-Overseas Chinese himself.
> 
> No wonder he's pro-China


i wouldnt necessarily think so. he is looking out for the best interest of the philippines.

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## James David

Hey @Blue Marlin , @gambit I think covered it all. 



gambit said:


> China will not help.
> 
> If you help your neighbor A, it is not because you have something against B and you want A's help. If your neighbor A's house is damaged by a fire, you help out of compassion and with no desire for anything in return.
> 
> For so often in international politics, that is not how countries interact with each other. We want an alliance with the Philippines. We give all sorts of aid. But precisely because we seek to contain the Soviet Union and/or China, we want an alliance with the Philippines. An alliance carries duties, responsibilities, and privileges.
> 
> If my neighbor's house got damaged in a fire and I helped his family, that does not mean I have incurred any kind of responsibilities for him and his family.
> 
> China is already busy and financially burdened in Africa to the point that some have called Africa China's colonial outpost. Does anyone here, particularly the forum's Filipino members, really believe that a US withdrawal will automatically bring in China as replacement ? Why should China incur for herself political and potentially even military duties for the Philippines ?
> 
> There will be no China-Philippines political alliance. China will do nothing other than sell the Philippines whatever Duterte want. Note I said Duterte, not the Philippines. As the Philippines weakens, she will decrease her influence in the SCS issue, leaving China stronger in the sea immediately off the Philippines' coast.
> 
> Duterte is being shortsighted and behind closed Politburo doors, China is laughing at the Philippines.



Jeeez I wont even pretend that you understood my post. Typical answer but not surprising. 



Zsari said:


> You need aid paid in coke, McDonald, etc? Those are business and merchandise that come with a business friendly environment with or without aid. What US aid will bring is US troop and a boss who will constantly tell you what you can and cannot do. What Chinese aid will bring are railway, schools, and hospitals. As to Chinese, Philippines is already full of Chinese anyway. Even Duerte claim Chinese ancestry, so did Aquino.

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## TaiShang

Jlaw said:


> i wouldnt necessarily think so. he is looking out for the best interest of the philippines.



US regime is surprised that PH interests somehow do not align with those of the US.

Or, do they sincerely want PH to remain in the state of subjugation and poverty for ever in return for providing comfort to US military personnel (out of their free will, often) who would otherwise be unemployed?


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## gambit

TaiShang said:


> US regime is surprised that PH interests somehow do not align with those of the US.


We are surprised -- that Duterte is that foolish.



TaiShang said:


> Or, do they sincerely want PH to remain in the state of subjugation and poverty for ever in return for providing comfort to US military personnel (out of their free will, often) who would otherwise be unemployed?


No, we want the Philippines to be independent and allied with US. Far better than you can say for China.

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## SBUS-CXK

cloud4000 said:


> If this is the behavior of Duterte, then what option does US have except to to downgrade their relations with the Philippines. They don't need this headache.


Political stance, the goal is to get more things from US. do not need to take seriously.


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## cloud4000

Two said:


> Political stance, the goal is to get more things from US. do not need to take seriously.



Nothing wrong with this, but this is no way to go about it. If you want to get something from someone you don't back them into the corner with insults and threats, but give them room to respond. How will US respond when Duterte talks like that?


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## SBUS-CXK

cloud4000 said:


> Nothing wrong with this, but this is no way to go about it. If you want to get something from someone you don't back them into the corner with insults and threats, but give them room to respond. How will US respond when Duterte talks like that?


I think of Turkey, you know that Turkey wants to buy China's HQ-9 air defense missiles, but US and NATO interfere with it. Turkey gave up. Then, the Russian aircraft into the Syria, and the intensification of the conflict in Turkey... Tell me, who's the air defense missile in Turkey? Who is helping Turkey? In addition to the Turkey concession, there are other ways?

India's arms inventory is only 20 days, oh, maybe now can be extended to 30 days. India apart from the mouth, there are other ways?

In international politics. Only their own interests, there is no axiom. And truth, in the hands of power. Don't be so childish.

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## cloud4000

Two said:


> I think of Turkey, you know that Turkey wants to buy China's HQ-9 air defense missiles, but US and NATO interfere with it. Turkey gave up. Then, the Russian aircraft into the Syria, and the intensification of the conflict in Turkey... Tell me, who's the air defense missile in Turkey? Who is helping Turkey? In addition to the Turkey concession, there are other ways?



Turkey is free to leave NATO any time it wishes if it wants to pursue a more independent path on defence matters. NATO has sent military forces and equipment to Turkey as it needed them, including Patriots air defence batteries. Turkey and NATO share the use of Incirilik Air Base. 



Two said:


> India's arms inventory is only 20 days, oh, maybe now can be extended to 30 days. India apart from the mouth, there are other ways?



What does this have to do with the discussion?



Two said:


> In international politics. Only their own interests, there is no axiom. And truth, in the hands of power. Don't be so childish.



You are not only stating the obvious, but it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Of course, Duterte is pursing his country's interesting, I'm just questioning the way he's going about it.


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## SBUS-CXK

cloud4000 said:


> Turkey is free to leave NATO any time it wishes if it wants to pursue a more independent path on defence matters. NATO has sent military forces and equipment to Turkey as it needed them, including Patriots air defence batteries. Turkey and NATO share the use of Incirilik Air Base.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with the discussion?
> 
> 
> 
> You are not only stating the obvious, but it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Of course, Duterte is pursing his country's interesting, I'm just questioning the way he's going about it.


1, When the Russian Air Force in Syria and Turkey of tension, U.S. the withdrawal of Turkey's Patriot missile removal.

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160701/1042262275/patriot-turkey-deployment-crisis.html
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...royce-to-open-tech-center-in-turkey/73785320/

2， Also hope that India do not use Rafale as a war bet, you are always facing the fate of Turkey.

3， All things in the world are decided by 5 countries, or more accurately, in fact, it is determined by 3 countries. No matter who is the party? The final result, by the interests of the 3 countries decided to exchange.

4，Mature, look at the world, do not look at a country.


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## haviZsultan

I will be happy when Pakistan tells US and Obama to go to hell. That country has supported mullahs and terrorists constantly especially when it suits them, like in Afghanistan at the time of the Soviets. US has a history of supporting the vitriolic mullahs like Zia Ul Haq. The fall of American civilization will be the most brilliant and spectacular thing possible.



Blue Marlin said:


> dont worry were gonna drop the seeds of democracy.


Like democracy came to Congo by supporting a dictator. US demand for democracy is lip service. It is an excuse on which the American empire is built. They have never brought democracy anywhere. It makes Americans feel good about themselves, to tell themselves they are the good guys. 

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/205411/10-vicious-dictators-supported-by-the-u-s-government/


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## Taimoor Khan

Going by history, multi polar world actually bring stability to the world order as there are more checks and balances, with clear red lines drawn. Its in American interests to realise these geopolitical realities and move on.


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## cloud4000

haviZsultan said:


> I will be happy when Pakistan tells US and Obama to go to hell. That country has supported mullahs and terrorists constantly especially when it suits them, like in Afghanistan at the time of the Soviets. US has a history of supporting the vitriolic mullahs like Zia Ul Haq. The fall of American civilization will be the most brilliant and spectacular thing possible.



And be replaced with what? Probably, more of the same. History repeats itself. Civilizations come and go. American civilization will one day fall, but it will probably be replaced with something equal or even worse.



haviZsultan said:


> Like democracy came to Congo by supporting a dictator. US demand for democracy is lip service. It is an excuse on which the American empire is built. They have never brought democracy anywhere. It makes Americans feel good about themselves, to tell themselves they are the good guys.



You are so right on this issue. Democracy is okay as long as it serves American interests. Some of America's biggest allies and friends have been brutal dictatorship all over the world. This is why when some American politico barks about spreading democracy, I just tune out. American hypocrisy on democracy has made me a cynic.

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## jerry_tan

Philippine lost scarborough because the supposed to be friend (USA) coudnt protect them, USA is afraid of China.
Philippines right now its back on the wall , no choice but to sleep with the enemy, if we cannot beat CHINA why not join them .


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## Ayan81

jerry_tan said:


> Philippine lost scarborough because the supposed to be friend (USA) coudnt protect them, USA is afraid of China.
> Philippines right now its back on the wall , no choice but to sleep with the enemy, if we cannot beat CHINA why not join them .



Blame US on losing scarborough? Although i can agree that the US is soft on China. Duterte is teaching us to hate what he hates. and im sad your one of them.

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## anon45

scope said:


> Why are you throwing a tantrum? This is what Western liberal democracy is all about - the right to choose one's own path. With 90+ % approval rating, he seems to be doing what his people want. I wish him every success.



tantrum? Freedom to pursue ones own path doesnt mean freedom from consequences, thats the same in any democracy. This shows that all the claims that the Philippines was a US puppet were so much BS, but we should still respond in the best way to protect our interests.

In my view, that's cutting our losses with the Philippines, ending the now utterly one sided MDT, and if the Philippines starts being actively hostile against other US interests and the US led global order, to look into cutting them out of the western business world and among other things limiting remittances.

I think we've shown extreme patience with Duterte and his words because they were not backed by action. But there is action being taken now, so we should cut them off and save ourselves additional pain. I don't expect this to happen before the elections are over, but As Hillary acclimates to the office, I think she won't be weak enough to stand idle in the face of tangible actions, not just words.

Trump would obviously take the most brute force approach, he can't stand insults. Filipinos better hope he isn't elected.

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## Pinoy

Hmm I think he also revealed his ideology being leftist, favoring China/Russia over US.


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## anon45

gambit said:


> The US should accommodate that 'more action'. Weapons purchase from China does not mean the Filipinos like China.
> 
> China do not need the Philippines' compliance to further secure the SCS. A weakened Philippines will do just fine and it already that weakened. So if the US begins our withdrawal from the Philippines, as the country's economic conditions deteriorate, the Filipinos will turn against Duterte. Once Duterte is ousted, and only after bloodshed because people like him, re Venezuela, once they have a taste of power, they will do everything they can to keep it, the US can return with the typical 'I told you so.'



Im skeptical to say the least. I think he has built himself a personality cult at this point, I'd be amazed if he actually left office at what was supposed to be the end of his term. If things get worse for the Philippines, even without the US doing anything, he will simply lash out at the US and become more popular for it. That said I don't have a view on the inside. All I see is Duterte and his support despite these moves, and work off of that.

I thought that Filipinos wanted to be friendly with the US, but I'm not so sure now. Tangible action has backed their insults now, there isn't much more to do but to cut it off when we are in the best position to be able to, otherwise it will be cut off for us when we aren't prepared.



Filipino said:


> He didn't ask for it, he was referencing the efforts of past administrations to get modern weaponry that never went anywhere. For example, there was an attempt in the late 90s to acquire fighters from Israel that got blocked by US congress (because of American technology in the fighters) because the US Gov't wanted to sell them embargoed Pakistani F-16s instead. Then that also didn't work out and the Philippines was left with its worn-out F-5As (not even Es) until they had to be grounded in 2003.
> 
> I'm pro-US and a naturalized American, but I could see (and dread) a realignment from a mile way. It's disappointing to say the least.



This has got to be the worst thing to see for Filipino-Americans, I wish you guys didn't have to go through this.

But we can't do anything about it, its coming one sidedly from Duterte, and he has the public support for it, all we can do is respond to best protect American interests.



Place Of Space said:


> You talk horse, dude, it's the USA needs the Philippines, for the wot pivot purpose. Duterte is smart, he knows clearly at the time what the America seek to beg from his country.


Nah, the Philippines isn't critical to US power projection, though it does make it easier. We operated for a decade without bases in the Philippines, and we have overseas logistics down to an art.

We'd like to have the Philippines on board, but if they are turning away themselves there's not much we can do. Its clear Duterte isn't actually looking to be neutral. I suppose he views the economic benefits to outweigh what will be the territorial losses, but the territory change will be permanent, the economic benefits temporary.

Why he thinks its a sound tradeoff is beyond me, but now that tangible action has been taken, I'm convinced that Duterte is serious, so again we can only respond in a way that best protects our interests.



eldarlmari said:


> Less talk, more action?
> 
> You're quoting a national leader- not a small time politician. If he had the guts to flip the bird at the EU and the US on TV, as well as sanctioning the deaths of thousands of drug offenders/pushers- u think he would not stick to his words?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And guess what? I just found out this myself:
> 
> http://www.cninfo360.com/sjdt/20160121/410279.html
> 
> *罗德里戈&#8226;迪泰特简介 菲律宾总统竞选人：*祖父是中国人* 无意与中国开战(图)*
> 
> 
> *= Grandfather is a Chinese*_(Duterte's)_
> 
> *他补充道，自己的祖父是中国人，他不想跟中国开战，因为在福建的表亲不想战争。*
> 
> *=*
> 
> *'he stressed that his own grandfather was a mainland Chinese*_(likely a Chinese immigrant to the PH, like the rest of the Chinese diaspora)_* and do not wish to get involved in a war with China. That's because his relatives in Fujian*_(province)_* do not want war*_(with Duterte)_*.'*
> 
> This makes Duterte a part-Overseas Chinese himself.
> 
> No wonder he's pro-China



No, you are correct, he has taken tangible action now, so he is serious. We should respond in a way befitting how serious it is. Its only a matter of time before the MDT ends, we should end it on the best terms for us.

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## eldamar

http://www.newsweek.com/duterte-boa...-rating-after-first-three-months-power-506750


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## ahojunk

Wow! President Duterte still has 76% approval rating after 3 months in office, that's an achievement.

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## AndrewJin

ahojunk said:


> Wow! President Duterte still has 76% approval rating after 3 months in office, that's an achievement.


He speaks for the People.

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## X-2.

Mugwop said:


> The subservient and apologetic politicians of Pakistan can learn something from this guy.


Bir sir problem is usa don't want to give them democracy as they don't have oil or enough gold or they aren't fighting against world banks like Qaddafi try to did and second most they are neighbour of China and they know they will make Philippines another Vietnam for Americans

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## James David

The fall of US? Aint gonna happen dude. We will continue living in blissful ignorance with Mcdonalds, booze and steak here in the US. I dont know about you but that doesnt sound "The fall of American civilization" as you put it.

Guys hold on to your panties, we will not and will never abandon the Philippines. As a matter of fact we never left!!! Even after they kicked us out in Subic and Clark. It is after all our 52nd state then Cuba and so on and so forth...

@gambit , @anon45 have you bought your six pack yet? "The fall of American civilization" is about to happen!!!









haviZsultan said:


> I will be happy when Pakistan tells US and Obama to go to hell. That country has supported mullahs and terrorists constantly especially when it suits them, like in Afghanistan at the time of the Soviets. US has a history of supporting the vitriolic mullahs like Zia Ul Haq. The fall of American civilization will be the most brilliant and spectacular thing possible.

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## gambit

anon45 said:


> ...he will simply lash out at the US and become more popular for it.


That was how Venezuela began her decline.

This is no longer the Cold War where you can play one superpower against the other and see whose 'boatload of cash' is larger. Neither Russia nor China can trumpet their presence under any ideological banner. If the Cold War is still on, Venezuela would have been ripe for the political taking. In real estate, it is 'location, location, location'. To be better, it would have to be Mexico. Instead, despite being in the US backyard, Venezuela was abandoned.

We do not need the Philippines and the reason we do not need the Philippines is because China do not need the Philippines.

The reason why China do not need the Philippines is because the Philippines offers no advantages to gain anything against the US. Beyond the Philippines is a vast stretch of ocean that ends at America's door. Why should China focus on that when so much wealth is crisscrossing a body of water right under China's gaze ?

We do not need the Philippines is because the US is powerful enough to contain China -- via the US Navy -- if we wanted to.

I say let the Philippines go. China is not going to move in. China is not going to give the Philippines anything for nothing.

For example...

https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/china-taiwan-and-endless-battle-recognition


> China formally resumed diplomatic relations with the tiny West African nation of Gambia on March 17 after 21 years. The two nations cut ties in 1995 when Gambia became one of a handful of African countries to formally recognize Beijing’s rival, Taiwan. Gambia tried to reverse course in 2013 by renouncing its recognition of Taiwan. But China, as part of a tacit agreement reached with Taiwan in 2008 to refrain from poaching each other’s allies, refused to reciprocate — leaving Gambia in limbo. The diplomatic truce between Taipei and Beijing now appears to be broken, highlighting nascent tension between China and Taiwan’s new, potentially uncooperative ruling party.


Any country that want to do business with China must submit to China's demands regarding Taiwan. So if China is going to make the Philippines a vassal state, there will be conditions that Duterte must bow to.

But again, are the gains in getting the Philippines outweighs the burdens of keeping that vassal state in line ? For now and the next decade, there are no gains, tangible or otherwise. Intangible gains are the most difficult to achieve and sustains, especially if you have to deal with charismatic figures and their associated cults. If China learned anything from US foreign relations, it is to keep at a distance any charismatic leaders. Look at NKR. The Philippines is no threat to China the way a US-controlled Korean peninsula can be.

The best is China gain control of the SCS. The worst is -- the status quo where China can use the SCS for profit and under American protection at that.

So why should China 'need' the Philippines ?


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## Götterdämmerung

The situation is beyond desperation for the US. Unless they will wreak havoc on the Philippines, making another failed state à la Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan, there is not much they can do. But what use is a Philippines in complete chaos for the US? It would only be a PR desaster for the whole world to see that even the US sycophants in the EU can hardly sell to the gullible populace.

Oh, the US shills in this forum, they, too, are in a desperate situation knowing they are perceived as clowns in the forum but yet they still have to write their drivels or become jobless.

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## AndrewJin

Götterdämmerung said:


> The situation is beyond desperation for the US. Unless they will wreak havoc on the Philippines, making another failed state à la Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan, there is not much they can do. But what use is a Philippines in complete chaos for the US? It would only be a PR desaster for the whole world to see that even the US sycophants in the EU can hardly sell to the gullible populace.
> 
> Oh, the US shills in this forum, they, too, are in a desperate situation knowing they are perceived as clowns in the forum but yet they still have to write their drivels or become jobless.


Non white US flaggers are more desperate than their own masters....

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## eldamar

AndrewJin said:


> He speaks for the People.



76% approval rating will put all the defiant American exceptionalists here to rest

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## Sanchez

Pinoys might be pushing the US to share more free hamburgers, or being kicked out of PH for the second time. Poor GIs...

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## Imran Khan

USA is not SOLO super power now


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## randomradio

gambit said:


> That was how Venezuela began her decline.



Its current 'major' economic problem is because of its overdependence on oil and massive social welfare programs. Nothing special there, it was expected when oil prices tanked. And this literally has nothing to do with the US.

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## AndrewJin

Imran Khan said:


> USA is not SOLO super power now


Of course, US and the 2012 supa powa.

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## anon45

scope said:


> No. It shows the claims that Philippines _was _a US puppet were likely true.
> 
> 
> Edit: *Are true*



If the Philippines were a puppet Duterte would have never come to power, and if he had come to power he would never have been allowed to pursue the path he s pursuing.

Carrot and stick is basic diplomacy, hardly puppeteering, unless you now consider the Philippines a Chinese puppet given the carrot and stick diplomacy they have been pursuing?



James Jaevid said:


> The fall of US? Aint gonna happen dude. We will continue living in blissful ignorance with Mcdonalds, booze and steak here in the US. I dont know about you but that doesnt sound "The fall of American civilization" as you put it.
> 
> Guys hold on to your panties, we will not and will never abandon the Philippines. As a matter of fact we never left!!! Even after they kicked us out in Subic and Clark. It is after all our 52nd state then Cuba and so on and so forth...
> 
> @gambit , @anon45 have you bought your six pack yet? "The fall of American civilization" is about to happen!!!
> 
> View attachment 341757



Aren't we still in the dark ages after our massive financial collapse in May? 

I wish I could be as hopeful that Relations with the Philippines would stay good, I don't see it. Duterte is too dead set on running cheeks spread and mouth open to China. I would legit not be surprised if we see Chinese ships basing from the Philippines in 5 years. Its the only real weapon he has against the US, though it would make the Philippines a military target in the event of general hostilities. Presumably that's what he wants, to cement the US as Filipino enemy number 1 and make people care less about the territory the Philippines is about to lose.

For China's part, they have an interest in keeping Duterte in power for as long as possible. I've said it before and i'll say it again, I'll be very surprised if he leaves at the end of his term.


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## ahojunk

_Will merge with main thread after discussions._
========
*Central, Eastern Europe key to Belt and Road Initiative: senior CPC official*
2016-10-07 08:43 | Xinhua | _Editor: Li Yan_

_



_​_Liu Yunshan, a member of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee
of the Communist Party of China, addresses the China-CEE (Central and Eastern European)
Countries Political Parties Dialogue in Budapest, Hungary, Oct. 6, 2016. (Xinhua/Rao Aimin)​
_
Senior Communist Party of China (CPC) official Liu Yunshan said on Thursday that Central and Eastern Europe is a key region for building the Belt and Road Initiative and a priority area in China's external exchanges and cooperation.

Liu, a member of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee, made the comment when addressing the opening ceremony of the China-Central and Eastern European Countries (CEECs) Political Parties Dialogue, the first of its kind within the China-CEECs cooperation mechanism, dubbed as the 16+1 framework.

"The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping and advocated by the Chinese government, is a major move for China's opening-up on all fronts, fits in line with the theme of peace and development, and accords with the internal need of all countries to accelerate development. It will present more development opportunities to the world and open up more space for coordinated development of China and CEECs," Liu said.

Over the past three years, the Belt and Road Initiative has increasingly become a new driver of global economic recovery, a new bond for exchanges between Asian and European civilizations and a new platform for improving global governance, he said.

"It has been proved that jointly building the Belt and Road Initiative helps boost prosperity and regional economic cooperation among countries along the Belt and Road, enhance exchanges and mutual learning among civilizations and promote world peace and development," Liu said.

He called on China and CEECs to respect each other, enhance political mutual trust, maintain close high-level exchanges, implement consultation and dialogue mechanisms and consolidate traditional friendship to lay a solid political groundwork for deepening consultation.

Liu urged both sides to pursue win-win outcomes and synergize development strategies by promoting policy coordination, facilities connectivity, unimpeded trade, financial integration and people-to-people ties, bringing about a new win-win situation featuring aligned development, mutually reinforcing growth and integrated interests.

He said both sides need to focus on major projects in priority areas of infrastructure connectivity, industrial cooperation, materializing some key projects at a faster pace to bring more tangible benefits to all countries, adding that people-to-people and cultural exchanges and friendship among the people should be strengthened.

Political parties in China and the CEECs enjoy a long history of interaction and it is their shared responsibility to make good use of the "16+1" cooperation platform and advance the Belt and Road Initiative to release the potential for cooperation, Liu said.

Political parties should shoulder the responsibility of strengthening political guidance and consolidating strategic mutual trust, conduct candid dialogue on major issues concerning the Belt and Road Initiative and the "16+1" cooperation and translate the political dialogue outcomes into government policies, Liu said.

"We should build consensus among political parties and coordinate operations, focus on common interests and resolve differences and disputes through dialogue and consultation," Liu said, adding that political parties have the responsibility of increasing understanding between the peoples and translating cooperation vision into tangible benefits to the peoples.

The CEECs leaders, including Viktor Orban, president of Fidesz-Hungarian Civic Alliance and Prime Minister of Hungary, Vojtech Filip, leader of the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia and vice president of the Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Republic, thanked the CPC for creating the dialogue platform for political parties to discuss development strategy, overcoming ideological and geographical differences.

The Belt and Road Initiative is a grand peaceful proposal to promote cooperation and win-win development. The initiative, rooted in China's profound philosophy and culture and love for peace, will guide the Europe-China relations for the coming decades and enable both sides to contribute to world peace, security and development, the CEECs representatives said.

They said political parties in the CEECs were delighted to engage in building the Belt and Road Initiative and are willing to work with the CPC to play a politically guiding role to lead the think tanks, civil organizations and the public to implement the initiative and make efforts for the peace and prosperity of China, the CEECs as well as the world.

Liu arrived in Budapest earlier Wednesday for a two-day official good-will visit to Hungary. Liu is taking on an Asia-Europe tour, which took him to Mongolia and Greece ahead of Budapest.

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## Cossack25A1

gambit said:


> But again, are the gains in getting the Philippines outweighs the burdens of keeping that vassal state in line ?



If China turns the Philippines into its vassal state, there won't be much of a change, except that some of the players will be swapped - if now the rebellion involves Maoist communist, in a China-vassal Philippines (which would likely have a government that is in line with Chinese ideology or Chinese standards), it would instead have a right-wing, anti-China armed movement, and the CCP will, in some ways, intervene in the form of arms shipment support to the China-friendly PH government.



anon45 said:


> I wish I could be as hopeful that Relations with the Philippines would stay good, I don't see it. Duterte is too dead set on running cheeks spread and mouth open to China.* I would legit not be surprised if we see Chinese ships basing from the Philippines in 5 years*. Its the only real weapon he has against the US, though it would make the Philippines a military target in the event of general hostilities. Presumably that's what he wants, to cement the US as Filipino enemy number 1 and make people care less about the territory the Philippines is about to lose.
> 
> For China's part, they have an interest in keeping Duterte in power for as long as possible. I've said it before and i'll say it again, I'll be very surprised if he leaves at the end of his term.



Make it less than 5 years, since there is a very high-probability that if EDCA and VFA are officially and permanently suspended, the PH military may end up having war games with the PLA, which would be very ironic.
And yes, I am already expecting the PDF China Battalion, a German, some Singaporeans, some Indonesians and Pakistanis to attack me verbally and tell that I should be hanged for treason.


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## Mugwop

X-2. said:


> Bir sir problem is usa don't want to give them democracy as they don't have oil or enough gold or they aren't fighting against world banks like Qaddafi try to did and second most they are neighbour of China and they know they will make Philippines another Vietnam for Americans



They can help America encircle China,That's what it's all about


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## X-2.

Mugwop said:


> They can help America encircle China,That's what it's all about


Yep if they do so like Japan ...

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## S10

I actually think JF-17 is well suited for Philippines if relationship wasn't so strained. They could buy it with a loan from China. It's affordable and capable enough for what they need, mainly counter-insurgency.


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## gambit

randomradio said:


> Its current 'major' economic problem is because of its overdependence on oil and massive social welfare programs. Nothing special there, it was expected when oil prices tanked. *And this literally has nothing to do with the US.*


Of course we had nothing to do with it. Socialism taken to its natural conclusion -- communism -- have always ended up a disaster.


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## randomradio

gambit said:


> Of course we had nothing to do with it. Socialism taken to its natural conclusion -- communism -- have always ended up a disaster.



It has more to do with lack of vision than socialism.

India's policies were all socialist for decades, a lot of them still are. All the policies made were very sound and had vision, but the govt failed in its implementation. It was the other way round for Venezuela, their policies were not visionary, but they made that up with implementation of whatever policies they could make. Had they diversified, they would have been a major economic powerhouse by now.

During their heyday their national revenue was equal to that of the Saudis. So their predicament has less to do with socialism and more to do with gross mismanagement of the economy.

Unfortunately, you are a victim of your govt's propaganda. So I would recommend reading less biased views.
https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/


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## gambit

randomradio said:


> It has more to do with lack of vision than socialism.
> 
> India's policies were all socialist for decades, a lot of them still are. All the policies made were very sound and had vision, but the govt failed in its implementation. It was the other way round for Venezuela, their policies were not visionary, but they made that up with implementation of whatever policies they could make. Had they diversified, they would have been a major economic powerhouse by now.
> 
> During their heyday their national revenue was equal to that of the Saudis. So their *predicament has less to do with socialism and more to do with gross mismanagement of the economy.*
> 
> Unfortunately, you are a victim of your govt's propaganda. So I would recommend reading less biased views.
> https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/


Please...As I said so often in this forum in the past: That we do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum.

What it means is that management, good or bad, comes from different sources, notably competence and motivators. If you are motivated to do harm, effective management will be the least of your concern, whether you are technically competent or not. If you are motivated to do good and positive things, but if you are not properly educated, your technical incompetence can actually produce the reverse of what you want.

What happened in Venezuela, no matter how much _The Nation_ magazine tried to spin it, was a combination of socialist motivation and technical (in)competence in managing the country.

According to the article that you brought on, Venezuela was rated 10th most corrupt in the world.

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/


> In 2015 Transparency International listed Venezuela as the tenth most corrupt country in the world (out of 167 listed).


Why is corruption so much the common theme before X, Y, or Z country descends into political and economic despair ?

So between you and I, it is *YOU* who is the victim of propaganda. _The Nation_ magazine is hardly objective. To you, history does not exist before the Internet, so probably I have been reading it longer that you have been alive. _The Nation_ magazine is famously sympathetic to Marxism and communist objectives. It is the 'Fox News' of the American Left. For you to bring on _The Nation_ magazine as 'unbiased' is laughable.

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## randomradio

gambit said:


> Please...As I said so often in this forum in the past: That we do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum.
> 
> What it means is that management, good or bad, comes from different sources, notably competence and motivators. If you are motivated to do harm, effective management will be the least of your concern, whether you are technically competent or not. If you are motivated to do good and positive things, but if you are not properly educated, your technical incompetence can actually produce the reverse of what you want.
> 
> What happened in Venezuela, no matter how much _The Nation_ magazine tried to spin it, was a combination of socialist motivation and technical (in)competence in managing the country.
> 
> According to the article that you brought on, Venezuela was rated 10th most corrupt in the world.
> 
> https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/
> 
> Why is corruption so much the common theme before X, Y, or Z country descends into political and economic despair ?
> 
> So between you and I, it is *YOU* who is the victim of propaganda. _The Nation_ magazine is hardly objective. To you, history does not exist before the Internet, so probably I have been reading it longer that you have been alive. _The Nation_ magazine is famously sympathetic to Marxism and communist objectives. It is the 'Fox News' of the American Left. For you to bring on _The Nation_ magazine as 'unbiased' is laughable.



Oh wow, so typical. Socialism bad. Communism bad. Socialism leads to communism. Let's all forget the underlying causes. Venezuela is corrupt and is socialist so it's bad. You sound like a Fox commentator right there.

Right, then what about India? India is more socialist than Venezuela. China is also far more socialist than Venezuela. And what's worse is both countries have insignificant social welfare programs in comparison to Venezuela, which makes living conditions in Venezuela far superior. India and China are both socialist economies that allow capitalism to also thrive on the fringes. In both countries, the biggest employers are the govts. So where does your argument take you when it comes to these two countries?

Of course, I hope that my country would abandon its socialist policies through reforms someday, but that doesn't change the ground realities, that a socialist country is now the world's fastest growing major economy, still being driven by govt spending, and is one of the champions of democracy.

What do you think happened to the US economy in 2007 or even in the 1930s? There wasn't any socialism or communism in the US, was there? What about Japan when the asset prices burst? So here logic and reasoning will come to play, and a whole list of problems are listed, but when it comes to countries that the US don't like, logic and reasoning are thrown out the window, and the blame falls on anything that doesn't fit the American narrative, is that right?

I find it hilarious that you attack The Nation, when the article has so much more truth than even mainstream newspapers in the US. Economies don't collapse because they are socialist or capitalist, they collapse due to mismanagement or sometimes by uncontrollable forces like natural disasters or external economic conditions like the oil glut or the financial crisis.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...d-saudis-prove-that-socialism-works-just-fine

All the Middle Eastern oil economies are socialist. They simply solve most of their problems with hard cash.

So your narrative is lost here. The underlying causes are the oil glut and continued mismanagement of the economy, including the currency which is controlled by vested interests. If they devalue their currency like the Russians did, they will be up to speed in 5 years with a combination of diversification and upward mobility of oil once the global economy is in better shape.

The Russians are headed towards positive growth again, regardless of the oil glut and sanctions.
https://sputniknews.com/business/20160607/1040961231/gdp-russia-growth-forecast.html

The Saudis have also started to diversify their economy.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-arabias-cabinet-approves-economic-reform-package-1465252667

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## Beast

S10 said:


> I actually think JF-17 is well suited for Philippines if relationship wasn't so strained. They could buy it with a loan from China. It's affordable and capable enough for what they need, mainly counter-insurgency.


We will sell them JL-15, it more suitable for countries like Philippine.


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## TaiShang

Hopefully, this will be the last one and signify the end of PH subjugation to the US' selfish interests in the Asia-Pacific.

If one needs to look at the practical results of US involvement and encouragement, look no further than Libya and Iraq. A US regime, which helped set up the menace called the ISIS and now is in bed with moderate-turned Al Nusra terrorists (AQ of Iraq), would not hesitate a similar set up in the PH.

***
*
U.S., Philippine marines cut short joint military exercises
October 10, 2016, Xinhua*

MANILA, Oct. 10 -- The U.S. and Philippine marines have decided to cut short their amphibious landing exercises and live-fire training in the Philippines, ending the games one day ahead of schedule, a spokesman for the Philippine marines said on Monday.

Both sides have agreed to end the exercises on Tuesday instead of Wednesday, Capt. Ryan Lacuesta, spokesman for the Philippine marines, said.

The drills, which started on Oct. 4, were conducted in several areas in the Philippine Luzon island and Palawan province.

Lacuesta told reporters that the closing ceremony would be held at the Philippine marine headquarters in Manila on Tuesday.

* "All major events have already been conducted. All the major exercises have been accomplished already so we decided to move the closing," he said.*

Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte, who assumed presidency in June, said he wants to terminate military exercises with the U.S. during his term and prohibit the Philippine military from joining in joint patrols in the South China Sea.

The U.S. and the Philippines conduct three major joint exercises and 28 minor cross-training exercises every year.


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## 艹艹艹

*China, Russia to hold second anti-missile drill*
*Updated: 2016-10-11 16:12*
*By Zhang Yunbi(chinadaily.com.cn)*




China and Russia will conduct a second joint anti-missile exercise next year.



A China-Russia joint press conference on missile defense on the sidelines of the Xiangshan Forum in Beijing on Tuesday. [Photo/chinadaily.com.cn]

The announcement, on Tuesday, was made at a China-Russia joint press briefing on missile defense on the sidelines of the Xiangshan Forum in Beijing, a high-end meeting of defense officials and experts.

The two countries held a joint computer-simulated anti-missile drill in May.

Observers noted that Beijing and Moscow have increased their anti-missile cooperation this year as the United States and its ally, the Republic of Korea, pushed forward a joint plan to deploy the long-range Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) anti-missile system in the ROK.

The X-band radar associated with the THAAD system has a maximum range of 2,000 km, a radius which is capable of covering parts of China and Russia.

In a joint statement on global strategic stability released following the meeting between President Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin in June, the countries voiced shared concerns over the deployment of antimissile capabilities globally and said that any unilateral deployment is a setback.

At a China-Russia Northeast Asia security consultation in Moscow in July, Beijing and Moscow agreed that they will "proactively consider strengthening bilateral coordinating measures" to tackle potential negative factors posed by the deployment of THAAD.








http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2016-10/11/content_27026575.htm

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## Habibullah Khan

The Russian SU 300 and SU 400 air missile defense systems are simply insane. They can singlehandedly change the attack equation for your opponents.... Downwards. They are in Syria which is half the reason the US military is now so hesitant in enforcing a No Fly Zone there. The other half is the SU 3x

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## Nevsky

*China, Russia to hold further anti-missile drills after U.S. THAAD decision*
Tue Oct 11, 2016 | 4:35pm IST

China and Russia will hold their second joint anti-missile drills next year, Chinese state media said on Tuesday, after South Korea and the United States angered the two countries with plans to deploy a U.S. anti-missile system in South Korea.

The Chinese and Russian militaries held their first such exercises in May as Washington and Seoul were in discussions over installing the U.S. Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system to protect against any North Korean threats.

THAAD is now due to be deployed on a South Korean golf course, unsettling Moscow and Beijing, which worry that the system's powerful radar will compromise their security and do nothing to lower temperatures on the Korean peninsula.

China and Russia announced the new round of drills for 2017 at a defence forum in Beijing, the official Xinhua news agency said. It didn't give further details.

The Global Times, a popular nationalist tabloid run by the ruling Communist Party's People's Daily, cited a senior Chinese military official criticising the THAAD plans before announcing the new round of drills.

"The United States' blind development of anti-missile systems that exceed demand and its search for absolute unilateral military superiority inevitably damage global strategic equilibrium and gravely harm major powers' strategic trust," Major General Cai Jun said.

"China and Russia are in close communication on next year's exercises," Cai, the vice head of the Central Military Commission Joint Staff Department's warfare bureau, said.

The paper also cited Cai as saying that the THAAD deployment "could lead an arms race into space".

This year's drills were held at a Russian military research centre and were intended to help the two militaries familiarise themselves with their respective command structures and data transmission processes, state media reported at the time.

Tension on the Korean peninsula has been high this year, beginning with North Korea's fourth nuclear test in January, which was followed by a satellite launch, a string of tests of various missiles, and its fifth and largest nuclear test last month.

http://in.reuters.com/article/china-russia-security-drills-idINKCN12B19U?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+reuters/INworldNews+(News+/+IN+/+World+News)

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## terranMarine

The message can't be more clearer than this, the frequent military drills between China and Russia is an indication of the highest order that our strategic partnership are at such a high level even the most stupidest person on Earth realizes what kind of signals these two (amongst the strongest military powers) are sending to US and NATO.

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## TaiShang

terranMarine said:


> The message can't be more clearer than this, the frequent military drills between China and Russia is an indication of the highest order that our strategic partnership are at such a high level even the most stupidest person on Earth realizes what kind of signals these two (amongst the strongest military powers) are sending to US and NATO.



Exactly. This a clear message to the US-led West that the starting point of our relations is co-existence. If this cannot be respected by the US-led West, then, the privileges we have given to them for centuries will be taken away.

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## F-22Raptor

In a rare bit of good cyber security news, Chinese hacking thefts of American corporate secrets have plummeted in the 13 months since China signed an agreement with the Obama administration to curb economic espionage, U.S. officials and outside experts say.

Analysts say the success may hold lessons for how the U.S. should deal with Russia, which at the same time has stepped up a different sort of hacking campaign that officials says is aimed at undermining confidence in the American election.

The change in China's behavior "has been the biggest success we've had in this arena in 30 years," said Dmitri Alperovitch, co-founder of Crowdstrike, a cyber security firm that tracks computer network intrusions.

"And it wasn't anything we did in cyber space -- it was the threat of sanctions and the impact on their economy."

Alperovitch said his firm has observed a 90 percent drop in commercial hacking against U.S. firms attributable to Chinese government actors. U.S, intelligence agencies also have reported a sharp falloff, according to officials briefed on the matter.

To be sure, Alperovitch and others say, Chinese intelligence agencies are still hacking to steal national U.S. security secrets, including attacking defense firms. But those attacks are considered commonplace, because they are exactly what the National Security Agency does to China and other U.S. adversaries.

At issue in the agreement President Obama signed with President Xi Jinping in September 2015 was hacking to steal corporate intellectual property to benefit Chinese firms. The U.S. says it doesn't do that, but China did it with impunity for years, in what a former NSA director called the biggest transfer of wealth in modern history.

After years of pressure, Obama elevated the issue and threatened sanctions on China. The U.S. also indicted five members of the People's Liberation Army in 2014, accusing them of commercial hacking.

In the agreement, China essentially promised to stop doing it.

The dropoff actually began a year before the agreement was signed, according to a study released in June by the iSight intelligence unit of FireEye, a cyber security company.

"Since mid-2014, we have observed an overall decrease in successful network compromises by China-based groups against organizations in the U.S. and 25 other countries," the report said. "These shifts have coincided with ongoing political and military reforms in China, widespread exposure of Chinese cyber activity, and unprecedented action by the U.S. government."

In addition, a cyber hotline to facilitate speedy communication between China and the U.S. over hacking incidents is in the testing phase, U.S. officials told NBC News.

Instead of targeting U.S. firms, Alperovitch said, China has turned its hackers inward, probing Chinese companies as part of an anti-corruption campaign -- and also against Russia.

"We're seeing a massive increase in domestic intrusions (by the Chinese government) against companies in China where they are using this for an anti-corruption campaign," he said. "And we're actually seeing a massive increase in attacks on Russia. They've stolen everything that Russia has in the defense space."

Last week, the Obama administration formally accused Russia of a campaign of hacking designed to interfere in the U.S. election campaign, including an effort to steal and leak embarrassing emails by Democrats. So far, the U.S. has taken no observable action in response.

White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said Tuesday that the U.S. is mulling a "proportional" response to Russia, but he declined to be more specific.

"The president has talked before about the significant capabilities that the U.S. government has to both defend our systems in the United States but also carry out offensive operations in other countries," he said on Air Force One en route to a Hillary Clinton campaign event in North Carolina. "So there are a range of responses that are available to the president and he will consider a response that is proportional."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russia-may-be-hacking-us-more-china-hacking-us-much-n664836


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## cloud4000

You know what they say: a good defence is a good offence. This is the only way Putin understands.

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## Beast

cloud4000 said:


> You know what they say: a good defence is a good offence. This is the only way Putin understands.


Yes, after Putin foolishly force Assad to agree a ceasefire against FSA and US cold blooded murder 90 of Syria soldier. Putin awaken and landed some of the most devastating bombing in Aleppo on Assad enemy.

Best defence is best offense by Putin is to bomb yr enemy to Stone Age and refuse ceasefire.

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## Zsari

Does the author ever consider that negotiation and agreement is what makes things work rather than threats and sanctions?

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## ahojunk

Chinese President Xi Jinping’s Asian visits to bolster ‘Belt and Road’ construction and BRICS cooperation
(People's Daily) 10:09, October 12, 2016

Chinese President Xi Jinping’s forthcoming state visits to Cambodia and Bangladesh, and attendance at the 8th BRICS Summit in Goa, India from October 13 to 17 will promote neighborhood friendships, facilitate “Belt and Road” construction and promote BRICS cooperation, the People’s Daily wrote in an article published on Tuesday.

The editorial - under the byline of Zhong Sheng, a pseudonym often used for editorials that interpret China’s policies – praised the friendship between China and Cambodia, saying that the two countries are good neighbors with sincere and brotherly relations.

Cambodia has always upheld justice and rendered valuable support to China on issues concerning the latter’s core interests, the article added.

Xi’s visit to Cambodia, the first by a major Chinese leader since the 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China in 2012, will significantly consolidate the traditional friendship between the two and deepen bilateral strategic cooperation, it said.

Speaking of Xi’s visit to Bangladesh, the first one paid by a Chinese president in 30 years, the People’s Daily defined it as a “milestone.”

“Since the establishment of diplomatic ties 41 years ago, both countries, as good neighbors, friends and partners, have yielded constant progress in bilateral relations through continued mutual respect, mutual understanding and mutual support,” said the commentary.

During his visits, Xi will bring forth new visions for cooperation and exchange views with Cambodian and Bangladeshi leaders on advancing the “Belt and Road” initiative, opening a new chapter on “Belt and Road” construction.

The “Belt and Road” initiative “originated in Asia, depends on Asia and will benefit Asia,” the paper said, pointing out that the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, part of the “Belt and Road” initiative, was first proposed by President Xi during his Southeast Asian tour three years ago.

As important regional countries and China’s friendly neighbors, Cambodia and Bangladesh have shown an active willingness to participate in the “Belt and Road” initiative, the article pointed out.

After 10 years of rapid development, the BRICS cooperation mechanism has formed a comprehensive, wide-ranging and multi-layered framework, setting an example for cooperation among emerging markets and developing countries, the article said, commenting on the five-nation bloc.

“Despite occasional doubts over the fading effectiveness of BRICS, the series of measures that have been taken to revive the economy has led to the world looking at BRICS countries in a different light,” it said.

The article also pointed out that IMF Director Christine Lagarde recently voiced her confidence in the development of BRICS members against the background of the current fragile and unbalanced world economic recovery.

The article ended by stating that it is expected that a new consensus and new outcomes regarding the “Belt and Road” construction will be brought about by Xi’s visits. It also called on BRICS countries to work together for a brighter future.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia pledge closer cooperation within multilateral frameworks*

Source: Xinhua | 2016-10-16 





Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in the western Indian state of Goa, Oct. 15, 2016. (Xinhua/Yao Dawei)

GOA, India, Oct. 15 (Xinhua) -- Chinese President Xi Jinping met Russian President Vladimir Putin here Saturday, and the two sides vowed to advance bilateral ties and boost cooperation within multilateral frameworks.

Xi arrived in the western Indian state of Goa earlier in the day for the eighth summit of the emerging-market bloc of BRICS, which groups Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

He recalled that leaders of the five countries met last month on the sidelines of the 11th summit of the Group of 20 major economies in the eastern Chinese city of Hangzhou, where they had an in-depth exchange of views on promoting BRICS cooperation and reached many important consensuses.

China, said the president, hopes that the BRICS summit in Goa will achieve positive results and inject new impetus into BRICS cooperation.

As China will hold the rotating chair of BRICS in 2017, Beijing stands ready to work with Russia and all other parties concerned to make a success of the ninth summit, he added.

*Noting that both China and Russia are permanent members of the UN Security Council and major emerging-market countries, Xi said the two countries should strengthen coordination and cooperation within the United Nations, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, BRICS and other multilateral frameworks.*

The two sides, he added, should jointly promote a more just and reasonable international order and safeguard the interests of the emerging-market countries and developing countries.

Recalling that he and Putin held a fruitful meeting last month in Hangzhou and reached important consensuses on advancing the China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination, he said the two sides should now earnestly push for their implementation.

Putin, for his part, said he is delighted to see that Russia and China have maintained close communication at high levels and in various fields, which is very important to consolidating bilateral ties.

Russia is committed to enhancing cooperation with China within multilateral frameworks and supports China in hosting the ninth BRICS summit next year, he added.

*Calling China an important economic partner of Russia, Putin said his country is willing to deepen cooperation with the Chinese side in such areas as energy, transport infrastructure, aviation manufacturing and space.*

*Moscow, he said, also supports the Russia-led Eurasian Economic Union in aligning its development strategies with the China-proposed Silk Road Economic Belt initiative and carrying out cooperation with the Chinese side.*

The two leaders also had an in-depth exchange of views on the Korean Peninsula situation and other global and regional issues of shared concern.

They agreed to maintain close communication and coordination to jointly safeguard peace and stability in Northeast Asia and the common interests of the two countries as well.

India holds the rotating chair of BRICS this year, and a summit has been scheduled for the weekend in the coastal state of Goa.

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## ahojunk

I am not really familiar with the overall situation.

However, from what I know if I am China I won't waste my time and money with BRICS.

You cannot really help those countries who are not willing to help themselves.

I suggest that China invest her time and money with Central Asian Republics, Russia and OBOR.

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## Rahim Malik

china makes it own eco-friendly food, then why going to Russia


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## Daniel808

The world is approaching what is often referred to as Doomsday. In other words, the World War 3.

China, Russia and Pakistan may have just formed an unofficial alliance to counter America’s global dominance. China, Russia, Pakistan and other authoritarian counties in Central Asia could join their forces to try and take away Washington’s dominance.

The U.S., meanwhile, is not twiddling its thumbs either. Washington has a number of allies in Asia, including Japan, all of whom are ready to jump into the fire and die for the Americans on the battlefield.

If that happens and China, Russia and Pakistan would go to war against the U.S., Japan, the European Union and their allies, one way or another, either side would put its nuclear weapons to work.






And given the fact that Russia, China and Pakistan have about 7,620 nuclear warheads combined, the United States would lose that nuclear war even before some guy in Pentagon would open his mouth to say, ‘Look, it’s a nuc…’


*Bipolar nuclear world: China, Russia and Pakistan vs. U.S. and allies*

There are a number of reasons why we’re coming toward a bipolar world with Russia, China and Pakistan on one side and the United States and its allies on the other side.

First, Russia has been actively strengthening its military ties with both China and Pakistan. In fact, Russia has just received a crucial support from China on the most important global issue of our time: Syria.

But what’s even more concerning is that Russia has been strengthening its diplomatic and military ties with Pakistan, its Cold War rival. Having both China and Pakistan on their side would get Russia a serious advantage in an imminent nuclear war against the U.S.

Second, China has been very supportive of not only Russia, but also Pakistan lately. In fact, Pakistan has always been China’s traditional ally and Beijing has always protected Islamabad against its historical rival, India.

Third, Beijing, Moscow and Islamabad see the need to form the China-Russia-Pakistan triangle, because it would finally allow them to put an end to U.S. global dominance.


*Presidential Election makes U.S. Weak*

And the U.S. is particularly weak right now, as the country is divided over its upcoming presidential election. The Donald Trump vs. Hillary Clinton polls clearly indicate that the country has never been so divided before, and it makes it look weak from the outside.

And since Russian President Vladimir Putin is known for his sophisticated plans to attack enemies at the most inopportune times for them, there is a high chance Russia would seek China’s military support to strike their mutual enemy.

A few weeks back, Russia sent a contingent of its soldiers to hold Pak-Russian military drills. The move was interpreted as Putin’s excuse to send his ground forces into Pakistan to protect his ally against India.

The drills came at a time when tensions between Pakistan and India reached its peak level following an attack on the Uri military camp in India-held Kashmir.


*Nuclear-powered India with or against U.S.?*

India, which has nuclear weapons on its own, is actually a crucial player in the imminent bipolar world. While India has previously slammed Russia for its ever-growing ties to Pakistan, it’s still not so quick to jump into the bed with the United States.

Earlier this year, India rejected an offer from the U.S. to join naval patrols in the South-China Sea alongside Japan and Australia. Patrolling the South-China Sea alongside Japan would mean the end of India’s diplomatic relations with China, the move that India is definitely not prepared to do.

Even though India has been criticizing Russia for its military cooperation with Pakistan, New Delhi has a number of joint military projects with Russia of its own.

So India is sort of torn apart between China-Russia and the United States. But Pakistan has surely already made up its mind which bed is cozier, and it went with China and Russia.







*Pakistan: ‘U.S. is NOT superpower anymore’*

Last week, Mushahid Hussain Syed, the Pakistani PM’s special envoy to Kashmir, threatened to break ties with Washington and officially cozy up to Russia and China, because America is “a declining world power.”

“[The] US is no longer a world power. It is a declining power. Forget about it,” Syed said, reiterating one of Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s diplomats’ recent comments, in which he said Pakistan would make a deal with China and Russia if the U.S. stays neutral on the Pak-India conflict in Kashmir.

Interestingly, China supplies Pakistan with more weapons than any other country in the world. But more importantly, Beijing is actively building nuclear reactors in Pakistan, which means China wants to strengthen its allies and prepare them for a possible war with the West.

When the U.S. and many other countries signed the NPT Treaty in 1996, neither India nor Pakistan signed it. And as tensions on the India-Pakistan border continue to grow every week, one of the sides could actually resort to nuclear weapons.

And it’s more likely that Pakistan would make its nuclear move first, because it knows it has the military support from China and Russia. In fact, Beijing has already pledged to help Pakistan in the case of any foreign aggression.


*Can U.S. survive China’s alliance with Russia?*

While the Russians haven’t made those pledges to Pakistan yet, it doesn’t take a Sherlock Holmes to predict that Russia would side with China in any international conflict.

China, Pakistan and India all possess ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and sea-based nuclear weapons, which means it would be interesting if India could side with China and its historical rival Pakistan after all.

India has no idea whether it can or cannot rely on receiving any sort of help from the U.S. And while the country is stronger than Pakistan in terms of its army power, Pakistan has more nuclear weaponry than India, which means A LOT in any global conflict.

And the thing is that the U.S. has no idea if India would side with them in an international conflict either. So if there will be a nuclear confrontation between the U.S. on one side, and the China-Russia-Pakistan triangle on the other side, there is a high probability that the U.S. would be the defeated side.


By Polina Tikhonova on October 13, 2016 10:24 am in Politics
@SheerazRaza has also contributed to this article.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/10/china-russia-pakistan-superpower/


Long Live Chinese-Pakistani-Russian brothership 
@PaklovesTurkiye @Horus @BRICSFTW @DESERT FIGHTER and many others

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

shah naimat ullah wali also predicted this alliance. add iran to it too.

turkey may become its part later.

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## TaiShang

*China, Russia Enhance Military Cooperation in Response to US Missile Threat*

18.10.2016(updated 16:50 18.10.2016)

The expansion of Sino-Russian military cooperation to include joint missile defense exercises is an important landmark in bilateral relations, military expert Vasily Kashin told Sputnik.

Last week the 7th Xiangshan Security Forum was held in Beijing, organized by the Chinese Association of Military Sciences and the Chinese Institute for International Strategic Studies.

Speaking at the forum, Major-General Cai Jun of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (CPLA) announced that* China and Russia will carry out their second joint missile defense military exercises next year. The plan follows the successful computerized joint exercise by the Russian and Chinese missile defense command in May this year.*

The joint exercises are set to become Russia and China's third annual set of joint military exercises, in addition to the "Peace Mission" and "Naval Interaction" drills. Vasily Kashin, senior fellow at the Russian Academy of Science's Far Eastern Studies Institute, told Sputnik that May's computerized exercises were modeled on China's HQ-9 anti-aircraft missile systems, which can be used to shoot down short-range ballistic missiles and some types of medium-range missiles. 
...

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/world/201610181046459591-china-russia-anti-missile/

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## onebyone

*The Booming China-Europe Rail Network Is Taking The Next Step*

Throughout the 2000s, various different China-Europe rail routes were being beta tested in starts in stops, but it wasn’t until 2012 that the logistics crew at HP worked out the bugs and began offering regular weekly service between Chongqing to Duisburg, Germany.

A year later, Chinese President Xi Jinping would announce a new policy called One Belt, One Road (later changed to the Belt and Road) that would shake up the geopolitical and geo-economic layout of Eurasia and re-establish China’s place in it. The plan called for pumping the New Silk Road — the long-emerging network of trade routes, logistics hubs, and economic zones stretching between China and Europe — with hundreds of billions of dollars worth of momentum. This new policy proved to be a boon for trans-Eurasian rail transport, as these new rail lines would become its vanguard, establishing physical links between many of the key countries and a platform of cooperation from which to drive closer diplomatic and economic ties.






_An international train at Khorgos Gateway, an emerging transshipment hub on the China-Kazakhstan border. It is places like this that are going to potentially benefit most from Beijing’s efforts to consolidate the emerging pan-Eurasia rail network. Image: Khorgos Gateway._

The Belt and Road soon became a major talking point of China’s central government and state-run media, and related infrastructure was posited as new drivers of growth as well as being what the bosses in Beijing wanted. Soon, cities from all over China began starting up China-Europe rail lines; each trying to position themselves as hubs on the emerging Silk Road Economic Belt. What started out as two regular routes emerging from booming high-tech zones in Chongqing and Chengdu rapidly grew into a 39 route network linking together dozens of cities in China and Europe.

In China, provinces and large cities still maintain relatively large amounts of authority to develop their own infrastructure and make investments, and most of these new trans-Eurasian trains were developed and subsidized by local municipalities without direct oversight from the central government.

A common Chinese calamity soon ensued: a feeding frenzy of development which resulted in a sector which became, as put by China’s National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), “plagued with high costs, disorderly competition and a supply-demand imbalance.”

Basically, the divided nature of the trans-Eurasian rail routes were reducing the potential of the network as a whole. Cities were setting themselves up as competitors as they vied for cargo and “Silk Road” status, and it was becoming clear that a better organizational structure was needed.





_China Railway Express-branded shipping containers. Image: Wade Shepard._

Throughout the past year it has been rumored along the stations of the Silk Road Economic Belt that China’s central government was going to step in and take more control over the emerging network of trans-Eurasian trains. The first big move towards this was creating the China Railway Express brand, which was put on display to the world back in June through distributing thousands of new shipping containers bearing its new logo. Now, more reforms are on the way:

It was formally announced last week by the NDRC that this melee of trans-Eurasian trains will be streamlined down to just three routes as part of a new five-year plan to improve the European service of China Railway Express and the China-Europe rail network as a whole.

“I think it is necessary because to me it doesn’t make any sense that these cities are competing with each other. I think that doesn’t work because it’s counterproductive,” said Ronald Kleijwegt of HP, who led the team that revived trans-Eurasian rail with the first regular China-Europe route in 2012. “So I think having this managed more centrally from the government, where these cities need to see the overall benefit for companies like us but also for their own country and their own city.”

So rather than individual cities in China making rail transport arrangements with individual cities in Europe, the Silk Road rail system will move towards becoming a true multi-tiered network with major transshipment hubs that are linked into by secondary and tertiary hubs. So block trains that are currently traveling virtually intact all the way from, say, Xiamen to Lodz, Poland, 9,826 kilometers away, will eventually be routed into to a transshipment hub like Chengdu or Khorgos on the China/ Kazakhstan border instead, where they could be broken down and have their containers shipped to a multitude of different locations throughout Eurasia. 

“If you have them all [China-Europe trains] routed into, for instance, Khorgos, from Khorgos you can then rebuild trains to other destinations directly into Europe or even into the Middle East. It is the same way eastbound. If you have trains coming in with containers from France, from Spain, from Germany, from Poland, to Khorgos you can re-consolidate and then onward you can ship these containers further back to Guangzhou, Zhengzhou, and what have you,” Kleijwegt explained.

While it generally takes under 15 days for these trains to traverse the expanse between China and Europe, the services that are being offered by most cities besides Chengdu and Chongqing are only weekly or bi-weekly. So this means if you want to ship a container to Europe on Monday and the train doesn’t depart until Saturday night your cargo is going to be idle. A consolidated network can mean far better services to and from Europe by funneling more cargo into larger transshipment hubs who can then have the volumes necessary for virtually around the clock departures.

The additional value of consolidating the trans-Eurasian rail network, beyond efficiency and cost-effectiveness, is the fact that it better enables key points along the various routes to leverage their positions as transshipment hubs to support broader development initiatives – like entirely new cities. The Khorgos Gateway dry port on the Kazakhstan/ China border is within a giant special economic zone, there are multiple free industrial zones surrounding the major rail depot at Malaszewicze on the Poland/ Belarus border, and Baku is currently building a logistics economy that is within the belly of a large-scale manufacturing area. The idea behind these nascent Silk Road hubs is to become places where products are not merely shipped through but can also be assembled or manufactured en-route and put right onto trains, as the economic layout of the interior of Eurasia undergoes a monumental economic transition.

Basically, what this means is that the China-Europe rail network is maturing. There is now enough cargo volume to make large-scale intermodal transshipment hubs in the west of China, Central Asia, and Eastern Europe a viable reality, as the New Silk Road starts to show glimmers of the efficient, interconnected, and versatile trade network it is meant to become. 

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. Follow by RSS.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...twork-is-taking-the-next-step/2/#542123bb396f_

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## cirr

5000 China-Europe freight trains a year by 2020 

http://xm.fjsen.com/2016-10/20/content_18594086.htm

China means business.

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## onebyone

cirr said:


> 5000 China-Europe freight trains a year by 2020
> 
> http://xm.fjsen.com/2016-10/20/content_18594086.htm
> 
> China means business.


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## ahojunk

*The Booming China-Europe Rail Network Is Taking The Next Step*





Wade Shepard ,
CONTRIBUTOR, I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find.
OCT 19, 2016 @ 02:49 PM, Forbes

Throughout the 2000s, various different China-Europe rail routes were being beta tested in starts in stops, but it wasn’t until 2012 that the logistics crew at HP worked out the bugs and began offering regular weekly service between Chongqing to Duisburg, Germany.

A year later, Chinese President Xi Jinping would announce a new policy called One Belt, One Road (later changed to the Belt and Road) that would shake up the geopolitical and geo-economic layout of Eurasia and re-establish China’s place in it. The plan called for pumping the New Silk Road — the long-emerging network of trade routes, logistics hubs, and economic zones stretching between China and Europe — with hundreds of billions of dollars worth of momentum. This new policy proved to be a boon for trans-Eurasian rail transport, as these new rail lines would become its vanguard, establishing physical links between many of the key countries and a platform of cooperation from which to drive closer diplomatic and economic ties.





_*An international train at Khorgos Gateway, an emerging transshipment hub on the China-Kazakhstan border. It is places like this that are going to potentially benefit most from Beijing’s efforts to consolidate the emerging pan-Eurasia rail network. Image: Khorgos Gateway.*_

The Belt and Road soon became a major talking point of China’s central government and state-run media, and related infrastructure was posited as new drivers of growth as well as being what the bosses in Beijing wanted. Soon, cities from all over China began starting up China-Europe rail lines; each trying to position themselves as hubs on the emerging Silk Road Economic Belt. What started out as two regular routes emerging from booming high-tech zones in Chongqing and Chengdu rapidly grew into a 39 route network linking together dozens of cities in China and Europe.

In China, provinces and large cities still maintain relatively large amounts of authority to develop their own infrastructure and make investments, and most of these new trans-Eurasian trains were developed and subsidized by local municipalities without direct oversight from the central government.

A common Chinese calamity soon ensued: a feeding frenzy of development which resulted in a sector which became, as put by China’s National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), “plagued with high costs, disorderly competition and a supply-demand imbalance.”

Basically, the divided nature of the trans-Eurasian rail routes were reducing the potential of the network as a whole. Cities were setting themselves up as competitors as they vied for cargo and “Silk Road” status, and it was becoming clear that a better organizational structure was needed.





_*China Railway Express-branded shipping containers. Image: Wade Shepard.*_

Throughout the past year it has been rumored along the stations of the Silk Road Economic Belt that China’s central government was going to step in and take more control over the emerging network of trans-Eurasian trains. The first big move towards this was creating the China Railway Express brand, which was put on display to the world back in June through distributing thousands of new shipping containers bearing its new logo. Now, more reforms are on the way:

It was formally announced last week by the NDRC that this melee of trans-Eurasian trains will be streamlined down to just three routes as part of a new five-year plan to improve the European service of China Railway Express and the China-Europe rail network as a whole.

“I think it is necessary because to me it doesn’t make any sense that these cities are competing with each other. I think that doesn’t work because it’s counterproductive,” said Ronald Kleijwegt of HP, who led the team that revived trans-Eurasian rail with the first regular China-Europe route in 2012. “So I think having this managed more centrally from the government, where these cities need to see the overall benefit for companies like us but also for their own country and their own city.”





_*Container loading area at Suzhou West Station for Europe-bound trains. (Image: Wade Shepard)*_

So rather than individual cities in China making rail transport arrangements with individual cities in Europe, the Silk Road rail system will move towards becoming a true multi-tiered network with major transshipment hubs that are linked into by secondary and tertiary hubs. So block trains that are currently traveling virtually intact all the way from, say, Xiamen to Lodz, Poland, 9,826 kilometers away, will eventually be routed into to a transshipment hub like Chengdu or Khorgos on the China/ Kazakhstan border instead, where they could be broken down and have their containers shipped to a multitude of different locations throughout Eurasia.

“If you have them all [China-Europe trains] routed into, for instance, Khorgos, from Khorgos you can then rebuild trains to other destinations directly into Europe or even into the Middle East. It is the same way eastbound. If you have trains coming in with containers from France, from Spain, from Germany, from Poland, to Khorgos you can re-consolidate and then onward you can ship these containers further back to Guangzhou, Zhengzhou, and what have you,” Kleijwegt explained.

While it generally takes under 15 days for these trains to traverse the expanse between China and Europe, the services that are being offered by most cities besides Chengdu and Chongqing are only weekly or bi-weekly. So this means if you want to ship a container to Europe on Monday and the train doesn’t depart until Saturday night your cargo is going to be idle. A consolidated network can mean far better services to and from Europe by funneling more cargo into larger transshipment hubs who can then have the volumes necessary for virtually around the clock departures.

The additional value of consolidating the trans-Eurasian rail network, beyond efficiency and cost-effectiveness, is the fact that it better enables key points along the various routes to leverage their positions as transshipment hubs to support broader development initiatives – like entirely new cities. The Khorgos Gateway dry port on the Kazakhstan/ China border is within a giant special economic zone, there are multiple free industrial zones surrounding the major rail depot at Malaszewicze on the Poland/ Belarus border, and Baku is currently building a logistics economy that is within the belly of a large-scale manufacturing area. The idea behind these nascent Silk Road hubs is to become places where products are not merely shipped through but can also be assembled or manufactured en-route and put right onto trains, as the economic layout of the interior of Eurasia undergoes a monumental economic transition.

Basically, what this means is that the China-Europe rail network is maturing. There is now enough cargo volume to make large-scale intermodal transshipment hubs in the west of China, Central Asia, and Eastern Europe a viable reality, as the New Silk Road starts to show glimmers of the efficient, interconnected, and versatile trade network it is meant to become.

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. Follow by RSS._

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## ahojunk

Wed Oct 12, 2016 | 10:53 AM IST, Reuters
*China adds fuel to speed up 'Railway Express' to Europe*

China's state planner has drawn up a five-year plan to develop the China Railway Express to Europe, improving customs clearance and infrastructure, it said on Wednesday.

The network was crucial to China's "One Belt, One Road" policy, spearheaded by President Xi Jinping to increase connectivity and cooperation between China and the rest of Eurasia, it said.

The 2016-2020 plan is the first top-level scheme to be proposed for the corridor, which has grown in popularity as firms seek shorter goods travel times, the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) said on its website.

*Local governments have launched rail services over 39 lines linking Chinese cities like Chongqing to destinations in Germany, Poland and the Netherlands*, but Beijing this year moved to *take control of the network, rebranding the trains and containers under the "China Railway Express" brand*.

The NDRC said the network, seen as an alternative to shipping by sea or air, had been plagued with high costs, disorderly competition and a supply-demand imbalance, creating a need to strengthen regulation.

The state planner would *focus on developing three routes and 43 transit hubs on the network* as well as improve the services and infrastructure, it said.



(Reporting by Brenda Goh; Editing by Nick Macfie)

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## TaiShang

*Nepal to participate in China's Belt and Road Initiative 
Xinhua, October 21, 2016*

Nepali Prime Minister Pushpa Kamal Dahal on Friday, reiterated Nepal's readiness to participate in the China's Belt and Road Initiative saying that the country wants to be benefited from the initiative.

The prime minister made such remarks at a meeting with visiting Chinese Minister of State Administration for Industry and Commerce Zhang Mao in Kathmandu.

"The prime minister reiterated Nepal's active participation in China's Belt and Road Initiative," Foreign Relations Advisor to the Prime Minister Rishi Raj Adhikari told Xinhua after the meeting.

The Belt and Road refers to the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, and the initiatives aim at building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient trade routes of Silk Road.

The two sides discussed on a range of bilateral issues during the meeting.

*"Relationship between Nepal and China has remained trouble-free for ages and it needs to be further strengthened in the present context. I believe that frequent exchanges of high level visits help to enhance our bilateral ties," Advisor Adhikari quoted Prime Minister Dahal as saying.*

On the occasion, the visiting Chinese minister expressed satisfaction over smooth-running of ongoing various bilateral cooperation projects between China and Nepal.

The Nepali prime minister also expressed happiness over the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on bilateral exchange of information on the areas of consumers' right protection between Nepal and China recently.

The deal is aimed at helping to create competitive market environment and more particularly, accentuate the trade relations between two neighboring countries, according to Nepal's Ministry of Commerce.

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## ahojunk

A map of the initiative in January this year. Photo: Reuters.






One Belt, One Road. Click to enlarge.

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## Shotgunner51

*Belgium heading to engage with China's Belt and Road plan*
2016-10-22 08:25






Belgium's Deputy Prime Minister Kris Peeters told Friday's Belt and Road forum held in Brussels
that Belgium is expected to become the member of China-backed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank next year.
(Fu Jing for China Daily)​

Belgium is on the way to becoming the next European country, after the UK, Czech Republic and Greece to actively engage in China's Belt and Road Initiative to better connect Asia, Europe and Africa, according to *deputy Belgian Prime Minister Kris Peeters*.

He told Friday's Belt and Road forum held in Brussels that *Belgium is expected to become a member of the China-backed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank*.

_"We have much to gain from this initiative. Belgium hopes to become a member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank next year," _Peeters told the forum, organized by Chinese Embassy in Belgium.​
The embassy organized the event as part of its efforts to mark the 45th anniversary of China-Belgium relations. Peeters also said the Belgian ports of Antwerp and Zeebrugge are ready to contribute to the success of the Belt and Road Initiative.

Earlier this week, when Peeters met visiting *Vice-Premier Ma Kai*, he confirmed that Belgium is among the group of European countries which will live up to the obligations agreed with China when it signed World Trade Organization treaty 15 years ago.

Peeters said he was impressed by the progress China has made within just three years after President Xi Jinping proposed the Belt and Road Initiative. "For the past three years, China has indeed been the driving force behind these unprecedented initiatives," said Peeters.

Peeters said he knows the proposal involve already more than 60 countries, 4.4 billion people, representing well over half of global GDP.

_"This has led to new forms of cooperation and the creation of new financial instruments and institutions, such as the Silk Road Fund and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank,"_ he said.​
_"Belgium is ready to join you on the exciting path of the One Belt One Road Initiative. We may be a relatively small country, certainly in comparison with China, but we are very big in terms of creating and strengthening links."_​
*Qu Xing*, *the Chinese Ambassador to Belgium*, said the Belt and Road Initiative aims to promote the connectivity of Asian, European and African continents and their adjacent seas, tap market potential, and promote Asia to secure a favorable position in the global supply chain, industrial chain and value chain.
_
"It is not a Chinese strategy that requires support from other countries, but rather a Chinese initiative open for participation of all,"_ he said, adding that this project will only succeed when it is jointly built through consultation to meet the interests of all.​
Qu also said under the "Belt and Road" framework, a number of cross-border infrastructure projects covering 44 countries have started construction this year, and some have even come into service.

Qu said Belgium is located in the western end of the Eurasian continent, and enjoys convenient transportation and well-developed logistics, so thus has great advantage in carrying out cooperation with China.

In respect of the policy coordination, high-level mutual visits are frequent, said Qu.

In 2014, President Xi Jinping paid a state visit to Belgium and the two sides agreed to strengthen cooperation under the framework of the Belt and Road initiative, especially the railway connection between China's western regions and the port of Antwerp.

In June last year, King Philippe paid a return state visit to China and witnessed the signing of more than 90 agreements and contracts. During a visit to Belgium in June of last year, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, together with Prime Minister Charles Michel, witnessed the signing of 12 cooperation agreements, accounting for more than 20 billion dollars.

_"When we celebrate the 45th anniversary of diplomatic relations, I believe the cooperation under the Belt and Road Initiative framework will bring our connections to new highs," _said Qu.​

http://www.ecns.cn/business/2016/10-22/231216.shtml

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## TaiShang

*China Ocean Strategic Industry Investment Fund to promote ‘Belt and Road’ initiative*
By Liu Zhun (Global Times) October 24, 2016
*
Fund launched for Chinese firms along Belt, Road*

*Up to 30 billion yuan ($4.43 billion) will be injected into China's "Belt and Road" (B&R) initiative by mid-2017*, Li Yu, president of Beijing-based think tank International Ocean Forum, announced in Hong Kong on Saturday.

Li's announcement came during the inauguration of the China Ocean Strategic Industry Investment Fund (COSIIF), which is designed to explore investment opportunities and offer financial services to Chinese enterprises in foreign markets, especially along the "Road," short for the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.

*COSSIIF was launched by Hong Kong-based Golden Grain Capital Management Limited under the auspices of the International Ocean Forum.* Its major partners include the Dubai-based Elyseum Capital Partners.

The B&R initiative was proposed by China's top leadership in 2013. The World Bank has estimated that the new framework will cover 65 countries, two-thirds of the world population and invigorate $2.5 trillion worth of international business activities. The initiative has led China to expand investment in financial sectors. *In 2014, China established the Silk Road Fund, which has raised $10 billion so far. A year later, China set up the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), which launched in 57 countries with an initial capital of $100 billion.*

However, the emergence of the two new financial institutions, along with traditional organizations such as the Asian Development Bank and the World Bank, is still far from meeting the enormous demand for investment along the B&R routes. *It is expected that by 2020, $800 billion will be needed solely for infrastructure projects in Asian countries.*

Unlike these "State-owned" or "government-led" financial institutions, the newly-built COSSIIF represents a new trend for raising capital for mega projects, Li said. Headquartered in Hong Kong, COSSIIF has "a broad international perspective and can be more efficient in implementation." In addition, the fund has introduced Islamic finance, which has a treasure chest of money, into its financial pool, a bold move that can "diversify the sources of funding and more tightly integrate Hong Kong and Dubai, the two major financial hubs in Asia," said Li.

Rick Pudner - former CEO of Emirates NBD, the largest bank in the Middle East for six years, and current president of Elyseum Capital Partners - said Hong Kong and Dubai "mirror one another in terms of capabilities and access to the Belt and Road." He added that the synergies between the two areas in terms of opening up and the ability to tap into different financial resources gives them advantages when it comes to major projects in Africa and the Middle East.

In order to balance its roles as a profit-seeking financial institution and a promoter of the B&R initiative, COSSIIF Chairman Jin Kun said the fund will divide its business strategies into two parts. *The first part will focus on assembling private equity funds by investing in businesses with potential, while the second part will focus on helping countries located along the routes of the B&R initiative with infrastructure projects.* Jin said the arrangement will "better serve this grand national program while aligning with the fund's aim to develop and prosper and benefit our partners and clients."

Jin also said that the fund can provide a role model for China's overseas investments by locating sufficient investment opportunities and providing down-to-earth suggestions for Chinese companies in overseas markets.

"We can help these enterprises in a more rational, healthy and professional way to enlighten them on the rules of international financial sectors so as to avoid haphazard investment," Jin said.

"We don't invest just to invest, we must choose projects that are in line with our investment principles - a rational return on investment and a sustainable investment portfolio."

Jin also expressed the hope that China's successful experience in boosting and maintaining extraordinary economic growth could be shared with other countries along the B&R routes through the fund.

* "The B&R is not a Chinese version of the Marshall Plan because it has no political strings attached," Jin said, explaining that the initiative can export China's excessive capacity to where it is mostly needed and help these countries optimize their economic structures.*

"The only political expectation for the initiative," said Jin, "is that it can change other countries' views about China, who is a friend instead of a threat."

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## Shotgunner51

TaiShang said:


> Unlike these "State-owned" or "government-led" financial institutions, the newly-built COSSIIF represents a new trend for raising capital for mega projects, Li said. Headquartered in Hong Kong, COSSIIF has "a broad international perspective and can be more efficient in implementation." In addition, the fund has introduced Islamic finance, which has a treasure chest of money, into its financial pool, a bold move that can "diversify the sources of funding and more tightly integrate Hong Kong and Dubai, the two major financial hubs in Asia," said Li.




Good news! COSSIIF, a private sector fund that brings Hong Kong and Dubai to the grand game, which of course is not limited to sovereign welfare funds.

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## ahojunk

NE China's Heihe attracts foreign tourists
2016-10-23 19:34:49 Xinhua Web Editor: Shi

Heihe, separated from Russia only by a border waterway, has attracted over 268,000 foreign tourists, mainly Russians, in the first 9 months of this year, increasing by 12% year on year.






Russians bargain at a morning market in Heihe City, northeast China's Heilongjiang Province, Oct. 22, 2016. [Photo: Xinhua]






A Russian man takes photos of a breakfast stall in Heihe City, northeast China's Heilongjiang Province, Oct. 22, 2016. [Photo: Xinhua]






A Russian man receives cupping treatment at a nursing home in Heihe City, northeast China's Heilongjiang Province, Oct. 21, 2016. [Photo: Xinhua]






Russian ladies enjoy Chinese meals at a restaurant in Heihe City, northeast China's Heilongjiang Province, Oct. 22, 2016. [Photo: Xinhua]

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## TaiShang

*‘Belt and Road’ initiative points to brighter globalization *
By Jean-Pierre Raffarin Source:Global Times Published: 2016/10/24 19:50:55

The history of the Silk Road sparks numerous aspirations for the ancient route. Hadrian, the Roman Emperor depicted by French writer Marguerite Yourcenar, was fascinated with the flourishing commerce and trade along the ancient Silk Road.

The "Belt and Road" initiative put forward by Chinese President Xi Jinping has amazed the world. There have been three highlights of the initiative. 

First of all,* the markets of Asia, Europe and Africa will be integrated into a community of common interest thanks to the initiative. *

As the marginal effect generated from globalization has lessened, the world economy has come to need a new growth engine. The connectivity created by the initiative will present Asia with new growth opportunities. 

By helping with the infrastructure projects of countries along the "Belt and Road" route, China will further open itself to the world and accelerate its development as well. What's more, China has been making efforts to internationalize the RMB and transform its economic growth towards a focus on higher quality and more inclusiveness. 

As all countries live on the same planet, none can survive like an isolated Robinson Crusoe. China-Europe cooperation will bring the latter economic growth and job opportunities, while Europe, Asia and Africa will turn into a community of shared interests, responsibilities and destinies in terms of geopolitical strategy.

Though globalization led by Western countries did bring prosperity to cities and coastal areas, villages, inland areas and Oriental countries were left behind. By calling for a "global rebalance," the initiative points to a brighter future for globalization. 

Second,* new driving forces are emerging in Asia*. Asia is becoming a global engine for structural reform by reforming and opening up to the world. Its vitality will bolster European growth as well.

*Since Asian countries have always believed that "Europe is the key to globalization," it is more of an imperative for them to focus on the European market, especially considering that, at present, the US is neglecting Europe after pivoting toward the Asia-Pacific region.*

Europe-Asia cooperation will bring balance to the future world. Europe should take this opportunity to return to the center of the world stage, and in this way, reshape the transatlantic relationship between Europe and the US. 

Third, the initiative highlights both cultural and economic development.* Western dominated globalization, while bringing in competition, also introduced some destructive effects: retrogression of civilization, prevailing individualism and irrational behavior.* The recent chaos in the Western world, including a resurgence of populism, a chaotic US presidential election and Brexit, have shaken the world. 

Given this backdrop, the geopolitical and strategic entity of Europe, Asia and Africa, which is represented by Egypt, Greece, India and China, *needs to shoulder the responsibility of rejuvenating human civilization.* 

Right now, cultural exchanges within the framework of the "Belt and Road" are blossoming. For example, the second China-France culture forum, themed "the Belt and Road: Cultural Communication and Integration," will be held in Lyon, France in 2017.

The "Belt and Road" initiative is more than just a theory, it is a new model for governance thanks to its plentiful financial instruments and multilateral mechanisms. 

The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), that was proposed by Xi Jinping and established in 2013, now holds over $100 billion of subscribed capital, which will allow it to effectively propel development. The establishment of AIIB, the New Development Bank and the Silk Road Fund sends a message to the world that China is more than capable of implementing the initiative.

While the initiative is sure to test the French government's wisdom and judgment when it comes to deciding how to respond to and dovetail development strategies with the "Belt and Road" initiative, France welcomes and supports the initiative, because it is directly linked to its interests and strategic plans. 

_The author is the *former French prime minister* and chairman of the *Senate Committee for Military, Defense and Foreign Affairs.*_
*
*

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## Shotgunner51

*China to send new test trains via TITR*
By Rashid Shirinov






Railways agencies of Azerbaijan and China agreed to send another five test container trains on the *Trans-Caspian International Transportation Route (TITR)* through Azerbaijan.

Nadir Azmammadov, the spokesperson for Azerbaijan Railways announced about this while talking to Trend on October 25.

He noted that the cooperation between the railways of Azerbaijan and China is being expanded.

The issue of boosting the cooperation was mulled in China, as Head of Azerbaijan Railways CJSC Javid Gurbanov visits Chengdu city to meet with Chen Zhongwei, Director of the municipal port and logistics center of the city, and Fan Yun, Director of international rail services of Chengdu.

The sides discussed economic opportunities, export potential of China’s Sichuan province and the routes for export of local goods to Europe, as well as the opportunities of TITR.

*The Chinese side expressed its interest in TITR and desire to create a regional hub in Azerbaijan*, given the country’s favorable geographical location.

Chinese partners also noted that with a view to increase trade with such countries as Iran, Turkey, and countries of southern Europe, they are going to arrange dispatch of cargo trains through Azerbaijan in the framework of One Belt, One Road project, Azmammadov said.

This project involves the use of TITR, and increase of trains' number.

Hence, the parties came to an agreement on sending five test container trains on TITR until the end of the year, as well as decided to hold next bilateral meeting in Baku.

*The Trans-Caspian international transport route, which is designed to provide transport connections between the East and West of Eurasia, runs through China, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and then to Europe via Turkey and Ukraine*. The route was launched with the establishment of its Coordinating Committee in October 2013. The first test container train from China arrived at the Baku International Sea Trade Port on August 3, 2015.






The agreement to create the *Trans-Caspian International Transportation Consortium* was signed in April 2016 in Baku by the railway authorities of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Kazakhstan.

In January, 2016, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Ukraine decided to apply the competitive feed-in tariffs for cargo transportation via the TITR. Single competitive rate was introduced in the framework of the route starting from June 1, 2016 with the view to reduce the costs of international cargo transportation.

About 300,000-400,000 containers are expected to be transported via the Trans-Caspian international transport route by 2020, bringing huge financial profits to Azerbaijan. Growing interest in the transport infrastructures passing through Azerbaijan's territory is expected to make the country a major transport hub in the region.



http://www.azernews.az/business/104236.html

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## Shotgunner51

*China interested in creation of transport hub in Azerbaijan (PHOTO)*

25 October 2016 19:59 (UTC+04:00)
Baku, Azerbaijan, Oct. 25
By Maksim Tsurkov – Trend:






Railway authorities of Azerbaijan and China have agreed to send five more test container trains via the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route through Azerbaijan, head of the press service of Azerbaijan Railways CJSC Nadir Azmammadov told Trend Oct. 25.

He said the expansion of cooperation between the railway authorities of the two countries continues.

_“Chairman of Azerbaijan Railways CJSC Javid Gurbanov held a meeting in China’s Chengdu with director of the city’s municipal port and logistics office, as well as director of the city’s international railway service,” _said Azmammadov.​
The sides discussed economic opportunities, the export potential of Chinese province of Sichuan, routes for export of goods produced in Sichuan to Europe, as well as opportunities of the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route, Azmammadov added.

The Chinese side expressed its interest in the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route and the desire to create a regional hub in Azerbaijan, given its geographical location.

_“The Chinese partners noted that in order to increase trade turnover with such countries as Iran, Turkey and the countries of southern Europe, they are going to organize the shipment of freight trains through Azerbaijan within the ‘One Belt, One Road’ project,” _said Azmammadov.​
_“The project involves using the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route, as well as increasing the number of trains on it,” _he added.​
Azmammadov said the parties came to an agreement on sending five test container trains via the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route before late 2016, and also decided to hold the next bilateral meeting in Baku.

The agreement to create the Trans-Caspian International Transportation Consortium was signed in April in Baku by the railway authorities of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Kazakhstan.

New competitive tariffs were introduced for the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route on June 1, 2016.

The *Trans-Caspian International Transport Route* runs through *China, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and then through Turkey and Ukraine to Europe*.


http://en.trend.az/business/economy/2677078.html

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## beijingwalker

*Hovercrafts Used to Ferry Passengers across Border River between China, Russia*
*



*

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## beijingwalker

*China starts building cross-river cableway linking Russian city*
*



*

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## Nevsky

Putin: Large-scale Eurasian integration, in concert with China's New Silk Road, our goal

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## Shotgunner51

beijingwalker said:


> *Hovercrafts Used to Ferry Passengers across Border River between China, Russia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Very interesting mode of transport

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## Zaslon

do any of Chinese members know when the People Liberation Army will receive the S-400s and SU-35s?

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## GeraltofRivia

ahojunk said:


> I am not really familiar with the overall situation.
> 
> However, from what I know if I am China I won't waste my time and money with BRICS.
> 
> You cannot really help those countries who are not willing to help themselves.
> 
> I suggest that China invest her time and money with Central Asian Republics, Russia and OBOR.


In my humble opinion, the relevance of BRICs appears reduced in the recent years due to the dire economic situation in some members and China's stunning rise to preeminence. There is no doubt that the development work in CEPC and central Asia have been dominant in the current phase of OBOR in terms of resource allocation. However, the importance of BRICs will re-emerge in the near future when OBOR enters the next phase where Africa and south America will receive more attention and resource. BRICs, which includes 2 leading countries in these regions, will play an important role in facilitating the development.

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## TaiShang

BRICSFTW said:


> Putin: Large-scale Eurasian integration, in concert with China's New Silk Road, our goal



I wonder if you could provide the link to this statement.  I looked it up on the internet, but nothing came out. 

Russian sources would work, as well.

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## TaiShang

*Transportation links to drive prosperity along Belt and Road: Volvo Group*
(Xinhua) October 27, 2016

BEIJING, Oct. 27 -- Better transportation links and infrastructure will help drive prosperity along the China-proposed Belt and Road and offer plenty of opportunities for foreign companies to participate, a recent white paper released by manufacturing giant Volvo Group said.

Regional infrastructure development creates win-win outcomes for all participating countries, and improving transportation networks in the region will bring gains through increased market access, reduced trade costs and more efficient energy production and use, according to the white paper released during the Global Sustainable Infrastructure and Connectivity Summit jointly held by Volvo Group and Tsinghua University.

*Infrastructure is fundamental for production and people's lives. Sustainable infrastructure, to some extent, determines the sustainability of the whole economy*, said Qian Xiaojun, director of the Green Economy and Sustainable Development Research Center of Tsinghua University.

It is vital to achieve synergy and consensus on policy regulation, industrial standards, technological innovation and upgrades, and marketization to move toward a shared ambition of sustainable development, Qian added.

Improved transportation infrastructure and networks will offer plenty of business opportunities by spurring demand for construction equipment, efficient long-haul transportation, and exchange and use of transportation-related data, according to the white paper.

However, transportation development along the Belt and Road routes still has to address geopolitical and security challenges, business operation risks, inadequate infrastructure and incoherent transportation policy in cross-border movement, said Huang Zheng, public affairs and communication vice president of Volvo Group China.

No single actor can solve the challenges, and China will need new forms of cooperation to successfully address complex tasks. In transportation connectivity areas, cities or project developers need to collaborate with both public and private organizations, contractors, suppliers, service providers, transportation operators, insurance companies and others, the report advised.

Multinational companies with a presence in China can collaborate with Chinese companies to contribute to the initiative with their expertise in localization and complementary advantages in technology and services, Huang added.

The Volvo Group has been in China for 24 years and China has become its second "home market" after Volvo's Global Headquarters in Sweden. It has already participated in projects along the Belt and Road such as the China-PakistanEconomic Corridor.

The white paper called for more information from the government about the implementation plan and relevant policies and a fair business environment open to all willing stakeholders.

The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinpingin 2013, comprises the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.

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## TaiShang

***



*President Putin Caught on Tape Trying to Bribe Chinese Delegation: WATCH*

...with Russian ice cream

Richard Brandt
Sat, Oct 22, 2016 | 




Sanctions on Russian ice cream when?

Russia often gets accused of bribing foreign officials, and some bad news reached the Kremlin last month.

*President Putin was caught on tape bribing Chinese officials!*

The shocking video highlights the finer points of the Russo-Chinese relationship and a yet unexploited vulnerability of the Chinese: *their love of Russian ice cream.*

Whether or not the KGB had a hand in concocting the latest batch of frozen sugary delight has not been confirmed yet.

*The Americans were deeply disappointed earlier last week upon learning that their Ben and Jerry gift-basket was rejected by the Chinese Office of Foreign Affairs.*

We wait now in anticipation to see if the long-awaited sanctions on Russia's weaponized ice-cream sector will by implemented by Congress. *A line in the cream has to be drawn*, a message has to be sent to Russia, that this is not how to do diplomacy in the current year!
*
Video here: http://russia-insider.com/en/presid...trying-bribe-chinese-delegation-watch/ri16887*

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## TaiShang

Impressive first batch of BIG data has come. Time to evaluate what has been accomplished so far. Who are the winners and who are the losers.

***

*China issues first big data report on B&R Initiative*
China.org.cn, October 28, 2016



Mr. Tian Jinchen (L) and Mr. Du Ping unveil the book 'Belt and Road in Big Data 2016'. [China.org.cn] 

China released its first big data report on the Belt and Road Initiative –"Belt and Road in Big Data 2016" – in Beijing on Oct. 28.

It is an annual report that presents a comprehensive assessment of the implementation of the initiative and an authoritative evaluation of the cooperation between China and the 64 countries involved and the engagement of its 31 provinces.

The report, released by Du Ping, standing deputy director of the State Information Center (SIC), consists of two volumes: the first offers a comprehensive assessment of the building of the Belt and Road, and the second presents special analysis on important issues, such as international industrial cooperation, regional cooperation, internationalization of RMB and cross-border e-commerce, and puts forward some practical suggestions.

*According to Du, there are more than 300 billion pieces of data in the report from domestic and foreign statistics agencies, news websites, social media and various other forums, over 5pb of which is original data*, covering more than 60 countries and regions along the routes of the Belt and Road.

It shows that *Russia, Kazakhstan, Thailand, Pakistan and Indonesia are the five most cooperative countries* in advancing the Belt and Road Initiative and that *Guangdong, Zhejiang, Shanghai, Tianjin, Fujian, Jiangsu, Shandong, Henan, Yunnan and Beijing* are the top ten most active participants in China in the implementation of the vision

Industrial cooperation in automobile, construction materials, iron and steel, railway and information communication attract the most attention from overseas. Specifically, *Southeast Asian countries care more about the automobile, iron and steel, electricity and information communication industries; countries in the Central and Eastern Europe are eager to absorb infrastructure investment from China, while industrial cooperation, automobile, real estate, highway and power grid construction are the main concerns for Northeast Asian countries.*

Supervised by the General Office of Leading Group of Advancing the Building of the Belt and Road Initiative, the report was compiled by the SIC and published by the Commercial Press.

Co-founded by the SIC, the municipal government of Karamay in Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and the IZP Group, the Belt and Road Big Data Center is dedicated to building a state-level think tank decided to the initiative and vows to establish a database and a global platform to provide professional services for governments, enterprises and organizations involved in the initiative.

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## Nevsky

TaiShang said:


> I wonder if you could provide the link to this statement.  I looked it up on the internet, but nothing came out.
> 
> Russian sources would work, as well.



Its from Vladai 2016 meeting, here it is, full quote:

Russia advocates the harmonisation of regional economic formats based on the principles of transparency and respect for each other’s interests. That is how we arrange the work of the Eurasian Economic Union and conduct negotiations with our partners, particularly on coordination with the Silk Road Economic Belt project, which China is implementing. We expect it to promote an extensive Eurasian partnership, which promises to evolve into one of the formative centres of a vast Eurasian integration area. To implement this idea, 5+1 talks have begun already for an agreement on trade and economic cooperation between all participants in the process.

http://valdaiclub.com/events/posts/...the-valdai-discussion-club-s-plenary-session/

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## Shotgunner51

BRICSFTW said:


> Its from Vladai 2016 meeting, here it is, full quote:
> 
> Russia advocates the harmonisation of regional economic formats based on the principles of transparency and respect for each other’s interests. That is how we arrange the work of the Eurasian Economic Union and conduct negotiations with our partners, particularly on coordination with the Silk Road Economic Belt project, which China is implementing. We expect it to promote an extensive Eurasian partnership, which promises to evolve into one of the formative centres of a vast Eurasian integration area. To implement this idea, 5+1 talks have begun already for an agreement on trade and economic cooperation between all participants in the process.
> 
> http://valdaiclub.com/events/posts/...the-valdai-discussion-club-s-plenary-session/



Thanks! What's the "5+1" mentioned?

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## TaiShang

Shotgunner51 said:


> Thanks! What's the "5+1" mentioned?



Is it 5 permanent EEU members plus Vietnam?

Vietnam has recently been given member status, but perhaps not a full member yet.

@BRICSFTW will know much better on this.

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## TaiShang

*China nurtures scientists for "Belt and Road" countries*
Xinhua 2016-10-28


BEIJING, Oct. 28 (Xinhua) -- Imoulan, postdoctoral student from Morocco, is examining a new species of fungus in his lab.

"It's so exciting to discover a new fungus in such a short time," said Imoulan.

Extracted from earth in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, the new species may be useful in agriculture, in control of pests and disease, reducing chemical pollution.

Imoulan came to China in 2014, and is now doing his research at the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) institute of microbiology.

"I owe my professor a big thank you. And thanks to CAS, I have a scholarship as well as such good equipment," he said. "It would have taken much longer to finish my experiments back home."

With the support of the CAS President's International Fellowship Initiative (PIFI), CAS-TWAS Center of Excellence for Biotechnology provides opportunities for students from developing countries seeking solutions to the problems of resources, energy, population, health and environment in those countries.

"CAS, as one of China's leading research institutions, plays its part in science and technology research in the Belt and Road Initiative," said Wang Ruiyan, program manager at the center.

According to Wang, CAS has offered scholarships to over 50 students and visiting scholars from developing countries in the past three years.

"This kind of exchange program strengthens scientific cooperation between China and other countries, improving international cooperation on biotechnology research," said Wang.

Prof. Yao Yijian, researcher at the institute and Imoulan's supervisor said, "We provide students with the latest approaches and the best equipment. In turn, they bring us fresh ideas. This pushes forward research on both sides."

Fitsum, an Ethiopian PhD student encountered a problem in his work, but with his supervisor's guidance, managed to continue his research and is about to publish his first paper.

"I am very grateful to the professors who have helped me all the way. You know, few people do such research in Ethiopia. If I hadn't come to China, it would have taken me 10 years to finish my first paper," he said.

"When I go back to Ethiopia, I want to teach in universities and take what I have learnt here to students there," he added.

A CAS report on biotechnology published earlier this week said the number of biotechnology patents from Belt and Road countries has been growing steadily.

According to Wang, PIFI scholarships are important to scientific research and cooperation in Belt and Road countries.

"Some of the students have graduated and gone back home, contributing to science and growth in their countries," said Wang.

"We are just doing basic research, and we still have a long way to go," he said. "We hope our center has done something to initiate deeper cooperation and nurture more scientists."

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## Shotgunner51

*‘One Belt, One Road’ and Hundreds of Highways*
*China builds roads with speed unprecedented in human history.*

_Written by *Nikolay Nikolaev*; Originally appeared at *A-specto*, translated by *Valentina Tzoneva* exclusively for *SouthFront*_

31.10.2016

A few weeks ago, China opened on its territory a nearly 1,000-mile long highway in the northern parts of the country, in the autonomous region of Inner Mongolia. At first glance, there is nothing unusual as far as the 930-kilometre (km) stretch between Bayan Nur City and the village of Alha in North China goes … completely through the Gobi Desert. Many would ask what is the economic benefit of a road passing through the nothingness? On the territory of the Gobi Desert, which is 12 times larger than Bulgaria, live about as many people as in the municipality of Petrich (most of them in the country of Mongolia), and large reserves of natural resources are not available. *The world’s longest highway through the desert, however, is part of the new Silk Road: ‘One Belt, One Road’. *The completion of the highway of over 2,000 km will be finalised in June 2017 and the trip between the capital, Beijing, and Urumqi in Sindzyan – the Uighur autonomous region – will be shortened to 10 hours. From there, from the west, north and south stretch the vast spaces of Asia and Europe with the colossal economic prospects that they hide.

*The Chinese leaders slowly but methodically move towards a grandiose infrastructure project of the new Silk Road. Beijing will not just build a fast transport and communication link with the countries of the Eurasian continent with this.* *The project, ‘One Belt, One Road’, aims to redefine global trade and financing and to transform the geopolitical architecture of the world, replacing the Atlantic and Pacific relations with Eurasian trade and economic and financial cooperation.*

The economic belt of the Silk Road includes three trans-Eurasian economic passages: north (China-Central Asia-Russia-Europe), central (China-Central Asia-West Asia-Persian Gulf and the Mediterranean Sea) and southern (China-South-East Asia-South Asia-the Indian Ocean). The sea route foresees the establishment of two routes: one from China to the South Pacific region and the other to Europe. The ambitious idea is focused on building a large-scale transport infrastructure: highways, pipelines to transport energy, airports, ports, high-speed rail infrastructure and telecommunications networks to enhance trade, as well as economic, financial and cultural cooperation between the Eurasian countries. *This project promises to end the centuries-long domination of the periphery’s naval forces to Eurasia over the supercontinent.*

The release of the segment in the Gobi Desert will soon be followed by the implementation of several large-scale transport facilities. In the coming years, China will complete the construction of some colossal projects from where the basic infrastructure will start the Chinese expansion in the world.

_The Bulgarian Prime Minister, Boyko Borisov, may be offended, but in recent years in the People’s Republic of Bulgaria (led by Todor Zhivkov), significantly more highways have been built than in China._ _This is for one simple reason: Beijing did not have one kilometre of highway until 1987._ _Under the leadership of four Ministers of Transport (Juan Dzhendon, Zhang Chunsien, Li Shanlin and Yang Chuantan), China built the largest highway network in the world._ _And now it’s only in the middle of its plans._ _Today, the Celestial has about 110,000 km in highways, surrounding the country from east to west and north to south; enough to tour the world nearly three times!_
*
Beijing planned to put into operation a total of 200 highways by 2030 (119 primary and 81 connecting) with the astronomical length of 260,000 km: the 12 rings of the planet Mars.* _Each year, Beijing builds motorway sections equal in length to the distance from the east to the west coast in the US and back._ _Stories about traffic congestion on Chinese highways lasting 11 days with 50 lanes in the region of Beijing sound stunning._ _But the truth is that the growing middle class in the country increases each year with a fleet of more than 20 million vehicles._​





From September this year, the People’s Republic has a new transport minister: 57-year-old governor of the northern province of Shanxi, Li Syaopan. His appointment is symbolic. Syaopan is the son of former Chinese premier, Li Peng (1988-1998), and will be responsible for implementing the ambitious programme worth 4.7 trillion yuan (over US$720 billion) for the development of China’s transport infrastructure in the next three years*. Improving the road system is without parallel in human history. Only within the next three decades, China will build infrastructure greater than the one created by the USA throughout its history.*

_To solve the problem of overloading the automotive network, China is now planning another ambitious project: the construction of dense high-speed rail system allowing for movement of trains over 300 km/hour (km/h)._ _The first high-speed lines in China are fairly recent_*. In 2007, the first line was put into operation and today, about 20,000 km of railway highways operate in the country; more than all other countries in the world combined!* _For the past year, the high-speed trains of the Celestial have shipped 1.1 billion passengers._ _The number of employees on the Chinese railways today is greater than the number of civilians working for the entire US government. The colossal network of speed lines is encircling the whole country with huge bridges, tunnels and viaducts, the largest of which is Viaduct Danyang-Kunshan, which has a length of 164.8 km (roughly the distance between Sofia and Skopje)._​





The dreams of the Chinese leaders do not stop there. Chinese Railways holds the record for the highest speed of a passenger train: 431 km/h. The largest manufacturer of equipment for rail transport in China recently announced that it has begun research and development for a new train type, “maglev,” which can develop speed of up to 600 km/h. The idea is for a similar facility to connect the mega-cities of Beijing and Shanghai, the distance between which is over 1,000 km. According to the plans of the Chinese authorities, by 2030, the country of Confucius should have brought into operation an unimaginable 45,000 km of high-speed railway lines.

The Celestial has about 500 airports in the territory of the country. The number of air transport passengers has increased by over 50% over the past five years – amounting to more than 400 million passengers. The Chinese Communist Party aims to overtake the global leader in this indicator, the USA. *By 2018,* *China will build the largest airport in the world: Beijing-Dasin, with a maximum capacity of 130 million passengers per year.* *The new mega-airport will cost US$13 billion, will have nine runways and will be built on more than 27,000 hectares (ha) of land.* *China’s plans and goals are to reach 2,000 air ports in the Celestial by 2030, meaning that the Chinese will build 100 airports annually.*






China has more than 2,000 ports, allowing Chinese goods – currently amounting to nearly 40% of the freight transported by sea – to travel thousands of nautical miles to all corners of the world. At the beginning of the century, Beijing began the phased construction of a mega project: the deep-sea container port, Jansa, south of Shanghai. The special feature of the port is its location: on an artificial island into the ocean. Jansa Port is connected to land via the longest sea-bridge in the world (32.5 km) and last year, it handled nearly 37 million TEU (unit of measurement equivalent to 20 standard transport containers) and is on the way to becoming the biggest deep-water port ever built in the world. The port has a 20-km jetty and is not called by many *“the eighth wonder of the world,”* by chance.
​





For ease the transport network, China plans to acquire the most colossal road facilities built in the history of mankind.* Beneath the Bohai Sea, the longest undersea tunnel in the world should be completed by 2026.* *With its length of 123 km, it will surpass the two, so far longest, underwater tunnels together: the Japanese tunnel, Seiko, and the Channel Tunnel.* The underwater tunnel will shorten the crossing distance between the two sides: it will take a little over an hour and a half instead of the current 12 hours. A high-speed railway track will be built as well.

_Beijing is building the longest bridge in the world to ease the movements between Hong Kong, Zhuhai and Macao._ _The project is complicated from an engineering point of view and must find a solution to the huge traffic flow of ships at the estuary of Zhujiang and the unusually deep waters in the area. The 50-km facility will be the longest bridge; some 15 times greater than the ‘Golden Gate’ bridge in San Francisco._ _For its construction, more than 420,000 tons (t) of steel were used, the equivalent of 60 Eiffel Towers._ _North of Hong Kong, the Chinese government is building a second Megamall, which will build shortcuts in the agglomeration of over 40 million inhabitants._​





The super-infrastructure on Chinese territory resolves domestic issues, but is has another crucial purpose*. The huge highways, ports, airports and high-speed lines serve as a base from which Beijing plans to connect its powerful economy with the countries of the Eurasian continent.* The project, ‘One Belt, One Road’, is carried out in small but sure steps. Chinese state corporations, private investors and funds bought ports and airports across Eurasia in recent years. The most active strategy is the one in the Indian Ocean, emanating from the relative weakness of the Chinese armed forces against their American rivals.

It is known that around two-thirds of the global trade in oil and half of the world’s maritime trade pass through the sea lanes of the Strait of Malacca. The mighty US Navy can, in acute conflict with Beijing, easily block the Straits and bring the Chinese economy to its knees. A few months ago, a 770-km pipeline was opened between Madai Island in Myanmar and China. The pipeline, which has a capacity of 22 billion t of oil per year, partly solves this dependence. The deep-sea port in Kyaokpyu, from where oil is transported to the Celestial, was won at an auction earlier this year by key Chinese company, CITIC Group, founded in 1979. The newly-established special economic zone, Kyaokpyu, in the Bay of Bengal, is a joint project between Chinese and Myanmar companies and it aims to significantly increase economic cooperation. *More than 40% of all foreign investment in the former British colony of Burma comes from the People’s Republic.* *As you can guess, the investments are mainly in infrastructure.*

Meanwhile, Myanmar’s neighbour, Bangladesh, is currently diverting the Chinese proposal for the concession of the largest deep-water port in the Bay of Bengal, located in the city of Chittagong. At an advanced stage is another Chinese investment for the port of Colombo in Sri Lanka. Under external pressure, the authorities of the small island nation were forced to freeze the project, but Sri Lanka’s huge debt and its inability to pay the Celestial back for the investments could make the country review its decision soon. Beijing also has an interest in the international airport in Matala and the deep-sea port in Hambantota. *The largest Chinese step in the implementation of the project, ‘One Belt, One Road’, however, was made in Pakistan and the Persian Gulf.* *Beijing secured a 40-year lease of the Pakistani port of Gwadar and is currently expanding its capacity with an investment of nearly US$2 billion, which will make it a megaport.* In the coming years, China will build the so-called Sino-Pakistani economic passage with an investment of US$51 billion. The bulk of the money is aimed at building roads, rail links and pipelines – a 1,152 km highway, Karachi–Lahore, a high-speed rail line, Karachi–Peshawar, a pipeline between the Iranian city of Navabshah and the port of Gwadar, and an oil pipeline between Gwadar and China. *Despite the threats made by White House representative, Victoria Nuland, to Pakistan, the pipeline and some of the other projects are at an advanced stage of implementation.*

_The last major infrastructural direction of China in the Indian Ocean is East Africa._ _After acquiring a number of ports in Kenya, Djibouti and Eritrea, in the next three years_ *China will implement infrastructure investments exceeding US$60 billion.* *The biggest transport investment ever made in Africa is a railway line from the port city of Mombasa in Kenya to Nairobi, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi and the second section between Kenya and South Sudan.*_ State company, the China Road and Bridge Corporation, will build the track, and the funding, worth US$14 billion will be provided by China’s Export-Import Bank._​





*The northern Eurasian direction of the Chinese project, ‘One Belt, One Road’, is going at a good pace. Russia has a key role in its realisation.* *The two countries have already agreed the biggest energy projects for energy export from Moscow to Beijing in the history of the world. *The project, ‘The Power of Siberia’, worth US$400 billion and the so-called West Route (‘The Power of Siberia-2’), will provide for the Chinese demand for natural gas. The pipelines are being built, and the first deliveries to the Celestial are expected in 2019.

The north conveyor path of the economic belt of the new Silk Road will pass through Russia. The two countries have already agreed to build a 770-km high-speed train route between Moscow and Kazan. For the construction of the section, Beijing plans to extend credit in the amount of 400 billion roubles for 20 years. With Russian permission obviously, the central direction of the economic belt will be realised. Recently, the first block train, loaded with Chinese goods, passed through Russian-populated parts of Kazakhstan to Tehran. This is the way to recover the ancient Silk Road, the Iranian railway company said, cited by France Press.

_Bulgarian politics: when a man sits on two chairs, he falls on the ground._

*This central direction should excite Bulgaria.* *The concept envisages the construction of a trans-Eurasian passage for economic interaction between China and Europe with an end-point: Rotterdam.* The Greek government and the Chinese state corporation, COSCO, in April finalised a deal for the privatisation of the largest port in the country: Piraeus, Athens. The Chinese have already invested over €200 million in the two container-terminals near Athens, which they acquired in 2009, bringing the facility’s capacity to growth of over 2.5 million containers annually. In the next few years, an extensive modernisation, worth €350 million, will open the entrance of Chinese maritime transport in Europe. Transporting the goods from the port of Athens and the railway stations from the central axis of the Silk Road is of interest to Bulgaria*.* *Chinese investors have already funded the underwater railway tunnel under the Bosphorus in Turkey, Marmaray, with US$2 billion. Europe and Asia were connected through a railway in the southern parts of the old continent in this way.* The aim of a serious government should be fighting for the transport passage from Athens and Istanbul to pass through Bulgarian territory.

*Regretfully, at present, it seems that Belgrade will be China’s major partner.* *Since the signing of the bilateral strategic partnership between China and Serbia in 2009, the Celestial has invested more than US$1 billion in the Serbian economy, mainly in infrastructure.* A highway bridge over the Danube, connecting Zemun and Borce, was opened recently with Chinese financing. The building of a 350-km high-speed rail line between Hungary and Serbia started last year. *The format 16+1, including China and the 16 countries of Eastern Europe, is a business forum in which leaders of countries like Poland and Romania also agreed to major Chinese investments in their countries.*

Belgrade was selected to host the summit of 16+1 in 2014. The event was attended by Chinese Premier, Li Keqiang, and leaders of Eastern Europe. *Whether under external pressure or not it is hard to say, but Borisov created another piece of his foreign-policy-stupidity as he was the only prime minister from Eastern Europe who did not respect the meeting.* At the last moment, Rumyana Bachvarova was sent to the meeting, and the Serbian news agencies reported that seven Bulgarians who were involved in preparations for a protest against the violation of human rights in China, were arrested. A little later, the prime ministers of China, Serbia, Hungary and Macedonia signed an agreement to build a high-speed rail line passing by and not going through Bulgaria. The high-speed line from the Macedonian-Greek border to the port of Athens will soon be completed. *As it became clear from the reception of Obama at the airport in Hangzhou this fall, the Chinese have a habit of saying, in a diplomatic manner, when a guest is not welcome.* *At the end of his visit to China last year for the meeting of the 16+1, Boyko Borisov was subjected to an unprecedented search by Chinese authorities at the airport in Beijing.* *Apparently, without thinking, our Prime Minister even suggested that the next meeting be held in Bulgaria.*

_As the Hungarian leader, Viktor Orban, recently said, we are witnessing “an east wind in the global economy.”_ _Meanwhile, some nations make windmills while others lead imaginary hybrid wars, freeze cooperation and close joint economic projects._ _As we have already gotten used to, it is good to lay low when the strong winds come or simply to “listen to the superiors.”_ *And while we do it, the Chinese train passes us by like a small Balkan station without stopping.*​*

https://southfront.org/one-belt-one-road-and-hundreds-of-highways/*

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## Jlaw

Bulgaria is the biggest loser so far in the OBOR

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## AndrewJin

The expressway built in nowhere, will be of great significance in the near future.
It is the shortest route between Beijing and Urumqi, Central Asia and Russia.

Standard 4-lane control-accessed expressway

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## TaiShang

*China, Kyrgyzstan agree to further boost cooperation *

Xinhua, November 3, 2016

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and his Kyrgyz counterpart, Sooronbay Jeenbekov, on Wednesday agreed to further boost cooperation between the two countries in a variety of fields.







Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (L) holds talks with Kyrgyz Prime Minister Sooronbay Jeenbekov in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan, Nov. 2, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua]



Li is in the Kyrgyz capital of Bishkek for an official visit to the central Asian country and the 15th prime ministers' meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO).


China and Kyrgyzstan are friendly neighbors and strategic partners with solid mutual political trust, close high-level contacts, rapidly growing pragmatic cooperation and active people-to-people exchanges, Li said during a meeting with Jeenbekov.


China supports Kyrgyzstan's efforts in seeking a development path that is compatible with its national circumstances and in safeguarding national independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, he said.


He added that his country is also willing to translate the high-level mutual political trust with Kyrgyzstan into more substantial cooperation results, so as to promote sustained, sound and comprehensive development of bilateral ties and cooperation.


The two economies are highly complementary to each other with abundant points of converging interests and great potentials for cooperation, said the premier.


China is willing to conjoin the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative with Kyrgyzstan's development strategy, make earnest efforts to push forward production capacity cooperation, strengthen cooperation in transport and other infrastructure building, and conduct cooperation in agriculture as a whole and intensive processing of agricultural products, Li said.


The premier called upon the two sides to enhance cooperation in the fields of information communications, tourism and people-to-people exchanges.


Li also expressed his hope that Kyrgyzstan will further improve its investment environment, so as to make it easier for Chinese companies to invest and start businesses in the country.


For his part, Jeenbekov hailed the high-level bilateral relations between Kyrgyzstan and China, saying Kyrgyzstan is willing to further increase political dialogues with China and boost the building of the Belt and Road through bilateral economic cooperation.


Jeenbekov pointed to production capacity, investment, light textile, telecommunications, small and medium-sized enterprises, agriculture, water conservancy irrigation, air transportation, and emergency disaster relief as the areas where the two countries should conduct cooperation.


Kyrgyzstan is also willing to carry forward the China-Kyrgyzstan-Uzbekistan Railway project and highway projects in Bishkek, so as to lift the economic and trade relations between the two countries to higher levels and bring benefits to the two peoples, the Kyrgyz prime minister said.


Jeenbekov also said his country is willing to strengthen communication and cooperation with China within the framework of the SCO and other multilateral institutions.


After the meeting, the two leaders signed and released a joint communique between the two countries and witnessed the signing of a number of cooperation documents in such fields as economy, technology, production capacity, transport, agriculture and intellectual property rights.


Kyrgyzstan is the first leg of Li's ongoing eight-day four-country tour, which will also take him to Kazakhstan, Latvia and Russia.

**

@Shotgunner51 , there was a thread named 'Belt and Road News and Development' dedicated to OBOR related news and analyses. For some reason, the thread is gone (merged with a strange sounding long titled thread). I was wondering if you would bring that thread back under a general OBOR title. These analyses are getting lost easily. Dedicated threads are a researcher's treasure really.

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## hirobo2

Beijing definitely needs a bigger airport. On my flight home to North America they made me take a shuttle bus to board the airplane in Beijing. The inconvenience! Not enough room for the airplane to park directly at the gate?

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## AndrewJin

hirobo2 said:


> Beijing definitely needs a bigger airport. On my flight home to North America they made me take a shuttle bus to board the airplane in Beijing. The inconvenience! Not enough room for the airplane to park directly at the gate?


I received such service everywhere!
No enough gate, common at every airport in China.

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## eldamar

wasnt there a thread somewhere that mentioned China will build at least 2000 airports, big and small combined- by 2025? im sure steps are already being undertaken to solve this problem in regards to the lack of airplane berthing lots. Chinese always do what they claim they will(or doesnt even claim anything at all until it's done)

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## AndrewJin

eldarlmari said:


> wasnt there a thread somewhere that mentioned China will build at least 2000 airports, big and small combined- by 2025? im sure steps are already being undertaken to solve this problem in regards to the lack of airplane berthing lots. Chinese always do what they claim they will(or doesnt even claim anything at all until it's done)


2000 might be overestimated...
Nearly all big cities' airports are being upgraded....Or a second airport is being built.
Smaller cities in the East have no reason to build airports because of HSRs and HSR stations at big airports.
Many airports in smaller cities and regions in Western China are being built.

New terminal of Wuhan Airport, with one new HSR (Wuhan-Airport-Xi'an) and subway





*Qingdao New Airport, to open in 2019
Airport+HSR+Subway



*
















Building comprehensive transport hub is the trend at big cities.....

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## TaiShang

hirobo2 said:


> Beijing definitely needs a bigger airport. On my flight home to North America they made me take a shuttle bus to board the airplane in Beijing. The inconvenience! Not enough room for the airplane to park directly at the gate?



Same in Taipei Taoyuan Airport although it depends on the season. At times the demand is so huge, so no enough space for parking directly at a gate.

But I also do not like the inconvenience of boarding a shuttle bus to get onboard. Flying is already a burden, the long wait and bus ride makes it even worse.

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## JSCh

*Yesterday's Silk Road could be tomorrow's environmental superhighway*
Nov. 4, 2016

While China is building a gigantic modern-day upgrade of the famed ancient Silk Road resplendent in global cooperation in the name of economic expansion, a group of sustainability scholars point out that the Belt and Road Initiative (B&R) also could be a superhighway of environmental progress.

China’s initiative is essentially supersizing the ancient Silk Road – which connects China to the Mediterranean – and weaving it into the Maritime Silk Road’s ocean-based routes to connect China with Asia, Europe and Africa, as well as along the Indian Ocean and Mediterranean Sea.

It’s an ambitious initiative, involving some 65 countries that are home to two thirds of the world’s population and cover one-third of the global economy.

Money drives it, as the project would shape world economies. But it also could create routes filled with opportunity. Taking advantage of that complex and vast expanse demands a different way of measuring and looking at the world, according to a Michigan State University professor in October edition of _Ecosystem Health and Sustainability_.




“The Belt and Road Initiative could be built to guide great progress in global cooperation,” said Jianguo “Jack”Liu, Rachel Carson Chair in Sustainability. “Environmental challenges like climate change; biodiversity loss; desertification; air, water, soil, and ocean pollution; and natural disasters rarely honor man-made borders, so now is the time to start building mechanisms to create environmental wins. But this also requires a sophisticated way of understanding the impacts that come with change.”

Liu, director of the Center for Systems Integration and Sustainability (CSIS), and his colleagues in China and the United States use the new integrated telecoupling framework, which allows scientists to understand and govern the interconnections of socioeconomic and environmental issues that span the globe. That would allow factoring the changes that ripple across the lands, accounting for what otherwise might be unforeseen and unintended consequences.

In other words, they stress that an enterprise as sweeping as this initiative demands new, more holistic ways to understand its effects. The stakes, Liu said, are particularly high with environmental concerns such as climate change, air and water pollution and food security demand immediate solutions.

The recommendations in the policy forum, whose first author is author Dewei Yang of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Xiamen, China; are created under the guiding principle of telecoupling – never forgetting that effects flow back and forth, touching not only beginnings and ends, but spilling over everywhere in between, sparking other impacts. Ignore all that action at a peril of cascading consequences never anticipated.

Among the group’s suggestions:


Build infrastructure that pulls the many nations together to allocate people, resources and energy equitably and efficiently.

Get creative about sharing. Environmental problems flow over boundaries. Energy needs by all often are held by a few. The authors say new ways are called for to share both challenges and opportunities. They suggest innovative research to create realistic cost-benefit understandings across distances. Multi-national joint research programs and environmental reserves of common interests could help nurture ideas that could benefit all.

Boost technological transfer with cultural and religious exchanges. Use the effort to create exhibitions, festivals and fairs to promote with better overall understanding and appreciation.

The B&R will touch international organizations and countries even if it doesn’t physically flow through them. The authors recommend that groups like the United Nations could and should have roles to smooth progress in areas in which all share a fate, such as climate adaptation and mitigation and poverty alleviation.
In addition to Liu, “New road for telecoupling global prosperity and ecological sustainability” was written by lead author Dewei Yang of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Xiamen, China; Jingjing Cai, Vanessa Hull, Kaiyong Wang and Yin-Phan Tsang. Yang and Cai were visiting scholars at CSIS. Hull and Tsang were CSIS members.

The work is funded by the National Natural Science Foundation of China, the China Scholarship Council, the National Science Foundation, Michigan AgBioResearch, and Michigan State University.

*Contact: *Sue Nichols, nichols@msu.edu, 517-432-0206


Yesterday's Silk Road could be tomorrow's environmental superhighway | Center for Systems Integration and Sustainability | Michigan State University

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## Shotgunner51

eldarlmari said:


> wasnt there a thread somewhere that mentioned China will build at least 2000 airports, big and small combined- by 2025? im sure steps are already being undertaken to solve this problem in regards to the lack of airplane berthing lots. Chinese always do what they claim they will(or doesnt even claim anything at all until it's done)




Yes, many airports are under-capacity due to massive increase of traffic in passenger. Freight is another key driver in making Chinese airports busy, Hong Kong tops the world, Shanghai Pudong ranks third, then Taipei Taoyuan, Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen are also among world's top 25 busiest.

_*Airports Council International (ACI) 2015 Statistics*_




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_airports_by_cargo_traffic#2015_statistics
http://www.aci.aero/Data-Centre/Monthly-Traffic-Data/Freight-Summary/12-months​
So naturally China is fast expanding existing airports, and building new ones. Trend for new era airport has two characteristics:

1) *Integrated transport hub*, example is Shanghai Hongqiao Hub which integrates airport, HSR, metro and expressway into one;








2) *Aerotropolis"*, example is the Zhengzhou Airport Economic Zone (ZAEZ), an airport-centered city seven times the size of Manhattan, infra and amenities for 2.6 million residents, located within greater Zhengzhou metropolis.​

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## 艹艹艹

http://www.dw.com/en/chinas-new-silk-road-brings-great-promise-to-eastern-europe/a-36271021
*China's 'New Silk Road' brings great promise to eastern Europe*

*Date*05.11.2016
*Author*Anastas Vangeli






From roads in Montenegro to industrial parks in Poland, China has become one of the biggest investors in eastern and southeastern Europe. The Beijing-led "16+1" initiative promises to boost cooperation with the region.




Xi Jinping visited the Czech Republic earlier this year

In the past 25 years, there have been a number of international platforms focusing on Central, East and Southeast Europe (CESEE). However, few have been as comprehensive and ambitious as the Beijing-led initiative dubbed "16+1," which brings together 16 post-socialist countries, eleven of which are European Union member states and five of which are in different stages of accession. China is aiming to promote "pragmatic cooperation" across a number of policy areas, with the goal of making the most out of CESEE's untapped economic potential.

On November 5, leaders from China and CESEE countries will hold their fifth-annual summit in Riga. The high-level talks are accompanied by business forums, think-tank conferences and other sideline events. Beyond the summit, there have been a vast array of gatherings under the 16+1 framework that involved various branches of government, academia and business. Delegations of CESEE representatives are now regularly flown to China and vice versa.

New era of cooperation

The increased interaction has been an unlikely development. Only few years ago, contact between the two sides was limited and far from enthusiastic. In the 1990s and early 2000s, many CESEE governments pursued ideological anti-communist diplomacy, which was not fond of closer ties with China. Since then, as elsewhere in the EU, political issues have been pushed to the side, allowing economic diplomacy to flourish. Today, Sino-CESEE relations are said to be at their highest point since the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949, when CESEE countries were among the first to recognize it - a fact that Beijing considers to be of special symbolic significance.

Chinese policymakers and experts say that in 2016, China-CESEE relations are ready to move beyond the initial phase of rapprochement. Earlier this year Chinese President Xi Jinping visited the Czech Republic, Serbia and Poland - signifying the increased importance Beijing is placing on the region.

16+1 has also become a crucial part of China's "Belt and Road Initiative" (BRI), also known as the"New Silk Road."Rooted in both its domestic imperatives (developing western Chinese regions and exporting overcapacity) as well as the thirst for capital across Asia, Africa and Europe, the BRI pushes for coordinated development and policy, promotes investment in infrastructure and financial integration and calls for "civilizational dialogue."

In practice, the 16+1 cooperation has, in only a few years, led to a significant increase in the economic importance of CESEE for China and vice versa. In 2015, for example, China had almost as much total trade volume with the bloc of 16 as it had with Russia. Investments from both Chinese and state-owned enterprises have gradually increased. A number of transport infrastructure projects - including the Budapest-Belgrade high-speed rail line, a leg of the "China-Europe Land-Sea Express" from Hungary to Greece - are underway.

Living up to its potential

However, aside from these achievements, the overall impression is that 16+1 has yet to live up to its full potential. Much more is being promised and projected than actually delivered. The economic cooperation between China and CESEE nations is still dwarfed by China's partnership with the rest of the EU.

Sino-CESEE relations have had to adjust to the "new normal" of the Chinese economy, which now grows at a rate of around 6.5 percent. CESEE countries, which often lack resources and experience, have struggled to keep up with the pace that China has set under the comprehensive 16+1 format. Domestic, regional and European-wide political circumstances are also limiting. Thus, for China too, the early stages of cooperation have been a learning experience. Unlike their CESEE counterparts, however, Chinese policymakers pace themselves for the long run - often milestones are set for the decades to come.

The summit in Riga will provide an opportunity for Chinese and CESEE leaders to take stock of current developments and announce future measures and areas of cooperation. In a time when the EU faces multiple crises, from the rise of destructive political forces to increasing tensions between Russia and NATO, the 16+1 summit provides a rare opportunity to map out visions for global economic renewal. It is also understandable that sometimes the progress is slower than expected.

_Anastas Vangeli is a doctoral researcher at the Polish Academy of Sciences, Warsaw, and a Claussen-Simon PhD Fellow of the ZEIT-Stiftung Ebelin und Gerd Bucerius._


*DW RECOMMENDS*

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## Zain Malik

A few weeks ago, China opened on its territory a nearly 1,000-mile long highway in the northern parts of the country, in the autonomous region of Inner Mongolia. At first glance, there is nothing unusual as far as the 930-kilometre (km) stretch between Bayan Nur City and the village of Alha in North China goes ... completely through the Gobi Desert. Many would ask what is the economic benefit of a road passing through the nothingness? On the territory of the Gobi Desert, which is 12 times larger than Bulgaria, live about as many people as in the municipality of Petrich (most of them in the country of Mongolia), and large reserves of natural resources are not available. The world's longest highway through the desert, however, is part of the new Silk Road: 'One Belt, One Road'. The completion of the highway of over 2,000 km will be finalised in June 2017 and the trip between the capital, Beijing, and Urumqi in Sindzyan - the Uighur autonomous region - will be shortened to 10 hours. From there, from the west, north and south stretch the vast spaces of Asia and Europe with the colossal economic prospects that they hide.

The Chinese leaders slowly but methodically move towards a grandiose infrastructure project of the new Silk Road. Beijing will not just build a fast transport and communication link with the countries of the Eurasian continent with this. The project, 'One Belt, One Road', aims to redefine global trade and financing and to transform the geopolitical architecture of the world, replacing the Atlantic and Pacific relations with Eurasian trade and economic and financial cooperation.

The economic belt of the Silk Road includes three trans-Eurasian economic passages: north (China-Central Asia-Russia-Europe), central (China-Central Asia-West Asia-Persian Gulf and the Mediterranean Sea) and southern (China-South-East Asia-South Asia-the Indian Ocean). The sea route foresees the establishment of two routes: one from China to the South Pacific region and the other to Europe. The ambitious idea is focused on building a large-scale transport infrastructure: highways, pipelines to transport energy, airports, ports, high-speed rail infrastructure and telecommunications networks to enhance trade, as well as economic, financial and cultural cooperation between the Eurasian countries. This project promises to end the centuries-long domination of the periphery's naval forces to Eurasia over the super continent.

The release of the segment in the Gobi Desert will soon be followed by the implementation of several large-scale transport facilities. In the coming years, China will complete the construction of some colossal projects from where the basic infrastructure will start the Chinese expansion in the world.

The Bulgarian Prime Minister, Boyko Borisov, may be offended, but in recent years in the People's Republic of Bulgaria (led by Todor Zhivkov), significantly more highways have been built than in China. This is for one simple reason: Beijing did not have one kilometre of highway until 1987. Under the leadership of four Ministers of Transport (Juan Dzhendon, Zhang Chunsien, Li Shanlin and Yang Chuantan), China built the largest highway network in the world. And now it's only in the middle of its plans. Today, the Celestial has about 110,000 km in highways, surrounding the country from east to west and north to south; enough to tour the world nearly three times! Beijing planned to put into operation a total of 200 highways by 2030 (119 primary and 81 connecting) with the astronomical length of 260,000 km: the 12 rings of the planet Mars. Each year, Beijing builds motorway sections equal in length to the distance from the east to the west coast in the US and back. Stories about traffic congestion on Chinese highways lasting 11 days with 50 lanes in the region of Beijing sound stunning. But the truth is that the growing middle class in the country increases each year with a fleet of more than 20 million vehicles.
From September this year, the People's Republic has a new transport minister: 57-year-old governor of the northern province of Shanxi, Li Syaopan. His appointment is symbolic. Syaopan is the son of former Chinese premier, Li Peng (1988-1998), and will be responsible for implementing the ambitious programme worth 4.7 trillion yuan (over US$720 billion) for the development of China's transport infrastructure in the next three years. Improving the road system is without parallel in human history. Only within the next three decades, China will build infrastructure greater than the one created by the USA throughout its history.

To solve the problem of overloading the automotive network, China is now planning another ambitious project: the construction of dense high-speed rail system allowing for movement of trains over 300 km/hour (km/h). The first high-speed lines in China are fairly recent. In 2007, the first line was put into operation and today, about 20,000 km of railway highways operate in the country; more than all other countries in the world combined! For the past year, the high-speed trains of the Celestial have shipped 1.1 billion passengers. The number of employees on the Chinese railways today is greater than the number of civilians working for the entire US government. The colossal network of speed lines is encircling the whole country with huge bridges, tunnels and viaducts, the largest of which is Viaduct Danyang-Kunshan, which has a length of 164.8 km (roughly the distance between Sofia and Skopje).

The dreams of the Chinese leaders do not stop there. Chinese Railways holds the record for the highest speed of a passenger train: 431 km/h. The largest manufacturer of equipment for rail transport in China recently announced that it has begun research and development for a new train type, "maglev," which can develop speed of up to 600 km/h. The idea is for a similar facility to connect the mega-cities of Beijing and Shanghai, the distance between which is over 1,000 km. According to the plans of the Chinese authorities, by 2030, the country of Confucius should have brought into operation an unimaginable 45,000 km of high-speed railway lines.

The Celestial has about 500 airports in the territory of the country. The number of air transport passengers has increased by over 50% over the past five years - amounting to more than 400 million passengers. The Chinese Communist Party aims to overtake the global leader in this indicator, the USA. By 2018, China will build the largest airport in the world: Beijing-Dasin, with a maximum capacity of 130 million passengers per year. The new mega-airport will cost US$13 billion, will have nine runways and will be built on more than 27,000 hectares (ha) of land. China's plans and goals are to reach 2,000 air ports in the Celestial by 2030, meaning that the Chinese will build 100 airports annually.

China has more than 2,000 ports, allowing Chinese goods - currently amounting to nearly 40% of the freight transported by sea - to travel thousands of nautical miles to all corners of the world. At the beginning of the century, Beijing began the phased construction of a mega project: the deep-sea container port, Jansa, south of Shanghai. The special feature of the port is its location: on an artificial island into the ocean. Jansa Port is connected to land via the longest sea-bridge in the world (32.5 km) and last year, it handled nearly 37 million TEU (unit of measurement equivalent to 20 standard transport containers) and is on the way to becoming the biggest deep-water port ever built in the world. The port has a 20-km jetty and is not called by many "the eighth wonder of the world," by chance.
For ease the transport network, China plans to acquire the most colossal road facilities built in the history of mankind. Beneath the Bohai Sea, the longest undersea tunnel in the world should be completed by 2026. With its length of 123 km, it will surpass the two, so far longest, underwater tunnels together: the Japanese tunnel, Seiko, and the Channel Tunnel. The underwater tunnel will shorten the crossing distance between the two sides: it will take a little over an hour and a half instead of the current 12 hours. A high-speed railway track will be built as well.

Beijing is building the longest bridge in the world to ease the movements between Hong Kong, Zhuhai and Macao. The project is complicated from an engineering point of view and must find a solution to the huge traffic flow of ships at the estuary of Zhujiang and the unusually deep waters in the area. The 50-km facility will be the longest bridge; some 15 times greater than the 'Golden Gate' bridge in San Francisco. For its construction, more than 420,000 tons (t) of steel were used, the equivalent of 60 Eiffel Towers. North of Hong Kong, the Chinese government is building a second Megamall, which will build shortcuts in the agglomeration of over 40 million inhabitants.

The super-infrastructure on Chinese territory resolves domestic issues, but is has another crucial purpose. The huge highways, ports, airports and high-speed lines serve as a base from which Beijing plans to connect its powerful economy with the countries of the Eurasian continent. The project, 'One Belt, One Road', is carried out in small but sure steps. Chinese state corporations, private investors and funds bought ports and airports across Eurasia in recent years. The most active strategy is the one in the Indian Ocean, emanating from the relative weakness of the Chinese armed forces against their American rivals.

It is known that around two-thirds of the global trade in oil and half of the world's maritime trade pass through the sea lanes of the Strait of Malacca. The mighty US Navy can, in acute conflict with Beijing, easily block the Straits and bring the Chinese economy to its knees. A few months ago, a 770-km pipeline was opened between Madai Island in Myanmar and China. The pipeline, which has a capacity of 22 billion t of oil per year, partly solves this dependence. The deep-sea port in Kyaokpyu, from where oil is transported to the Celestial, was won at an auction earlier this year by key Chinese company, CITIC Group, founded in 1979. The newly-established special economic zone, Kyaokpyu, in the Bay of Bengal, is a joint project between Chinese and Myanmar companies and it aims to significantly increase economic cooperation. More than 40% of all foreign investment in the former British colony of Burma comes from the People's Republic. As you can guess, the investments are mainly in infrastructure.

Meanwhile, Myanmar's neighbour, Bangladesh, is currently diverting the Chinese proposal for the concession of the largest deep-water port in the Bay of Bengal, located in the city of Chittagong. At an advanced stage is another Chinese investment for the port of Colombo in Sri Lanka. Under external pressure, the authorities of the small island nation were forced to freeze the project, but Sri Lanka's huge debt and its inability to pay the Celestial back for the investments could make the country review its decision soon. Beijing also has an interest in the international airport in Matala and the deep-sea port in Hambantota. The largest Chinese step in the implementation of the project, 'One Belt, One Road', however, was made in Pakistan and the Persian Gulf. Beijing secured a 40-year lease of the Pakistani port of Gwadar and is currently expanding its capacity with an investment of nearly US$2 billion, which will make it a megaport. In the coming years, China will build the so-called Sino-Pakistani economic passage with an investment of US$51 billion. The bulk of the money is aimed at building roads, rail links and pipelines - a 1,152 km highway, Karachi - Lahore, a high-speed rail line, Karachi - Peshawar, a pipeline between the Iranian city of Navabshah and the port of Gwadar, and an oil pipeline between Gwadar and China. Despite the threats made by White House representative, Victoria Nuland, to Pakistan, the pipeline and some of the other projects are at an advanced stage of implementation.

The last major infrastructural direction of China in the Indian Ocean is East Africa. After acquiring a number of ports in Kenya, Djibouti and Eritrea, in the next three years China will implement infrastructure investments exceeding US$60 billion.The biggest transport investment ever made in Africa is a railway line from the port city of Mombasa in Kenya to Nairobi, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi and the second section between Kenya and South Sudan. State company, the China Road and Bridge Corporation, will build the track, and the funding, worth US$14 billion will be provided by China's Export-Import Bank.

The northern Eurasian direction of the Chinese project, 'One Belt, One Road', is going at a good pace. Russia has a key role in its realisation. The two countries have already agreed the biggest energy projects for energy export from Moscow to Beijing in the history of the world. The project, 'The Power of Siberia', worth US$400 billion and the so-called West Route ('The Power of Siberia-2'), will provide for the Chinese demand for natural gas. The pipelines are being built, and the first deliveries to the Celestial are expected in 2019.

The north conveyor path of the economic belt of the new Silk Road will pass through Russia. The two countries have already agreed to build a 770-km high-speed train route between Moscow and Kazan. For the construction of the section, Beijing plans to extend credit in the amount of 400 billion roubles for 20 years. With Russian permission obviously, the central direction of the economic belt will be realised. Recently, the first block train, loaded with Chinese goods, passed through Russian-populated parts of Kazakhstan to Tehran. This is the way to recover the ancient Silk Road, the Iranian railway company said, cited by France Press.

Bulgarian politics: when a man sits on two chairs, he falls on the ground.

This central direction should excite Bulgaria.The concept envisages the construction of a trans-Eurasian passage for economic interaction between China and Europe with an end-point: Rotterdam.The Greek government and the Chinese state corporation, COSCO, in April finalised a deal for the privatisation of the largest port in the country: Piraeus, Athens. The Chinese have already invested over €200 million in the two container-terminals near Athens, which they acquired in 2009, bringing the facility's capacity to growth of over 2.5 million containers annually. In the next few years, an extensive modernisation, worth €350 million, will open the entrance of Chinese maritime transport in Europe. Transporting the goods from the port of Athens and the railway stations from the central axis of the Silk Road is of interest to Bulgaria.Chinese investors have already funded the underwater railway tunnel under the Bosphorus in Turkey, Marmaray, with US$2 billion. Europe and Asia were connected through a railway in the southern parts of the old continent in this way.The aim of a serious government should be fighting for the transport passage from Athens and Istanbul to pass through Bulgarian territory.

Regretfully, at present, it seems that Belgrade will be China's major partner. Since the signing of the bilateral strategic partnership between China and Serbia in 2009, the Celestial has invested more than US$1 billion in the Serbian economy, mainly in infrastructure. A highway bridge over the Danube, connecting Zemun and Borce, was opened recently with Chinese financing. The building of a 350-km high-speed rail line between Hungary and Serbia started last year. The format 16+1, including China and the 16 countries of Eastern Europe, is a business forum in which leaders of countries like Poland and Romania also agreed to major Chinese investments in their countries.

Belgrade was selected to host the summit of 16+1 in 2014. The event was attended by Chinese Premier, Li Keqiang, and leaders of Eastern Europe. Whether under external pressure or not it is hard to say, but Borisov created another piece of his foreign-policy-stupidity as he was the only prime minister from Eastern Europe who did not respect the meeting. At the last moment, Rumyana Bachvarova was sent to the meeting, and the Serbian news agencies reported that seven Bulgarians who were involved in preparations for a protest against the violation of human rights in China, were arrested. A little later, the prime ministers of China, Serbia, Hungary and Macedonia signed an agreement to build a high-speed rail line passing by and not going through Bulgaria. The high-speed line from the Macedonian-Greek border to the port of Athens will soon be completed. As it became clear from the reception of Obama at the airport in Hangzhou this fall, the Chinese have a habit of saying, in a diplomatic manner, when a guest is not welcome. At the end of his visit to China last year for the meeting of the 16+1, Boyko Borisov was subjected to an unprecedented search by Chinese authorities at the airport in Beijing. Apparently, without thinking, our Prime Minister even suggested that the next meeting be held in Bulgaria.

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## Zain Malik

@Chinese-Dragon @long_ @zheng2 @oprih @Two @lonelyman @wanglaokan @royalharris @AndrewJin

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## 艹艹艹

*Once we make a decision we will do our best to carry it out.*

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## Zain Malik

long_ said:


> *Once we make a decision we will do our best to carry it out.*


THAT is the point for which the whole world is Afraid of China...


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## 艹艹艹

Zain Malik said:


> THAT is the point for which the whole world is Afraid of China...


Don't be afraid of China, but some people deliberately create "China threat" theory .

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## AndrewJin

*Let's build it around the world!*

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## Meengla

Wow! 'break-neck speed' is truly the right phrase for the transformation done by China. I don't think ever in human history a country has risen so high from so low in such a short timeframe. I mean think of what China was in 1949?!

PS. I remember decades ago, 'Made in Japan' was considered inferior (compared with Made in U.K). Then 'Made in Hong Kong' was considered inferior. And, till recently, 'Made in China' was considered inferior.

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## AndrewJin

This series of short documentaries presented One Belt One Road with numbers and statistics from Big Data.
Each episode is only 10-15 minutes in length with English subtitles.


*Episode 1 Parcels From Faraway Places*





*Episode 2 Roads Leading To The World*





*Episode 3 Travel Through Cultures *

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## AndrewJin

*Episode 4 Running Energy*





*Episode 5 Stories Behind Food*





*Episode 6 The Silk Road, Here We Go!*





*Episode 7 Made-in-China, What's Your Choice?*




@Gibbs @Kaptaan @Shotgunner51 @TopCat @UKBengali @el che @PaklovesTurkiye @Tipu7 @simple Brain @Götterdämmerung @Mista @eldarlmari @coffee_cup @waz @Arsalan @Dungeness @Two @bolo @Echo_419 @pts_m_h_2016 @Darmashkian @Pluralist @Khan_21 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @PaklovesTurkiye @hellfire @Two @AViet @maximuswarrior @Huan @Darmashkian @endyashainin @Taygibay @LA se Karachi @911 @Cherokee @xyxmt @BDforever @Three_Kingdoms @T-123456 @somebozo @Maira La @vostok @senheiser @Nilgiri @terranMarine @Jlaw @Dandpatta @Philia @Hasan89 @pts_m_h_2016 @XenoEnsi-14 @Malik Abdullah @LadyFinger @Devil Soul @Zain Malik @waz

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## AndrewJin

There is another official documentary from CCTV Documentary Channel.
It has no English substitutes.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0eGJygpmOH7JqQC2PH09Rz8edoPZ61NJ

Some video clips

*Colombo Port





China-Egypt Suez Economic and Trade Cooperation Zone





Wind Energy Farm in Pakistan 





Kaleta Dam in Guinea built by Three Gorge Dam Group 




*
*Suramadu Bridge in Indonesia *
*



*

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## onebyone

*China's belt and road is integrating countries in Asia, Africa and Europe into China's financial, industrial and infrastructure model into one global value chain*
November 09, 2016

The ultimate purpose of the Belt and Road Initiative is deep economic integration through the development of global value chains. Importantly, the initiative is supposed to abide by market rules. Either geopolitical considerations were never taken into account or everything in the Vision and Actions document was carefully checked and revised to make it read like a business plan.

even in the milder forms of expanding Chinese soft power. Issued in March 2015 with the clunky title “Vision and Actions on Jointly Building Silk Road Economic Belt and 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road,” the paper offers a vision of greater economic integration between mutually complementary economies. Such integration is meant to promote the “orderly and free flow of economic factors, highly efficient allocation of resources and deep integration of markets.”

*Global Value Chains*

Patterns of international specialization and division of labor are particularly relevant in the age of global value chains. Today, very few products are manufactured in a single country. A country’s manufacturing imports are more likely to be intermediate goods—that is, commodities, components, or semifinished products that a country uses to make its own products. These could be final products or new segments in a global network of producers and suppliers. Global value chains can become so complex that imports can also contain returned value added that originated in the importing country. In China, nearly 7 percent of the total value of imported intermediate goods reflects value added that originated in China. For electronic goods, Chinese intermediate imports contain over 12 percent of returned Chinese domestic value added.

The Belt and Road Initiative is the first example of “transnational” industrial policy. “Formerly, all industrial policy was national,” he said. He has a point, as even the European Union, when it created an ambitious transnational framework of rules and institutions, tended to abandon industrial policy on the grounds that such a policy could not be reproduced at a transnational level.

The image of the original Silk Road is particularly misleading in this context, as indicated by the inclusion of the small code words “belt” and “road” in the names of the project’s two components. The land element is called a belt to pinpoint that its ultimate goal is the creation of a densely integrated economic corridor rather than a transportation network linking two points. The maritime road is meant to adapt sea transportation to new patterns of global trade.








Ernst and Young had a 32 page document looking at how business can leverage the belt and road initiative.

Chinese companies have built 46 cooperation zones [industrialization zones] in countries along the routes, while China's Ministry of Education has inked over 60 deals with those countries, according to Zhao.

In 2015, nearly half of the international students in China came from countries along the routes, Zhao added. Nearly 400,000 foreign students from 202 countries and regions came to study in China in 2015, data showed.

Meanwhile, China was building more railways, highways and ports along the routes while sealing more MOUs with its neighbors and partners.

SOURCES- Carnegie Endowment, China National Development and Reform Commission, China Daily, EY


http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11/chinas-belt-and-road-is-integrating.html

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## JSCh

*Nov 10, 2016 @ 03:29 PM*
*Europe Finally Wakes Up To The New Silk Road, And This Could Be Big*
Wade Shepard, Contributor

“They humiliated me a year ago,” began Karl Gheysen, the then-CEO of the Khorgos Gateway dry port on the Kazakh/China border, in November of 2015.

He then told me a story about a talk that he attempted to give to an audience of senior executives of big rail companies at a conference in Europe a year earlier.

“I started talking about Khorgos and Kazakhstan, and the general of the executives interrupted and said, ‘We’ve heard this before, for the last 15 years we’ve heard Kazakhstan this and Kazakhstan that. We’ve all heard about the Silk Road. Go back to your playground and make something, and when you have something come back here and show me the volume!’”

That about summed up the general attitude in Europe at that time towards the emerging network of economic corridors that had been dubbed the New Silk Road. Since the late 1990s, the governments of Central Asia along with a few upstart investors and think tanks had been promoting a vision of a reconnected Asia, but what had actually been developing on the ground was haphazard at best — a nascent dry port here, a new highway to nowhere there.


_Continue -> _http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...y-wakes-up-to-the-new-silk-road/#1b89b2e27b5e

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## beijingwalker

*Top Trump Advisor signals interest in possible cooperation with China's One Belt One Road Global Infrastructure plans*
November 15, 2016

A top adviser to US president-elect Donald Trump has lashed out at the Obama administration's opposition to China's economic diplomacy, especially the decision to stay away from The Beijing-based Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB).

In an opinion piece in the South China Morning Post on Friday, James Woolsey, a senior adviser to Trump on national security and intelligence, called Washington's spurning of the China-led multilateral lender "a strategic mistake" and expected a "much warmer" response From Trump to President Xi Jinping's "One Belt, One Road" initiative.




The United States and Japan are the only two G7 countries that have not signed up to be AIIB members, a move viewed by Beijing as a sign of Washington's mistrust of the Chinese government and its ambition to exert bigger regional influence.

Analysts said that if Trump backed US membership of the AIIB and endorsed China's efforts to revive trade routes along the ancient Silk Road, it would be a big sign of goodwill from Washington to Beijing to pave the way for future agreements.

Former Chinese vice-commerce minister Wei Jianguo agreed, saying that while Trump labelled China a currency manipulator and threatened trade wars, he might have a more open attitude towards China-backed institutions and investment programs.

Wei Jianguo, China Center for International Economic Exchanges, now a deputy director of the China Center for International Economic Exchanges, said that if Trump embraced the AIIB, more trade and investment deals could flow between the two economies.

Daiwa Capital Markets economists Kevin Lai and Olivia Xia said that if Trump aborted the TPP, China could avoid the risks of "being shut out of a massive trade deal." But it could also delay much-needed reforms in China.

"Without the threat from the TPP, China could continue to support inefficient state-owned enterprises to strengthen the state control and impose local-content requirements on multinational companies to keep jobs in China," they said.

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11/top-trump-advisor-signals-interest-in.html

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

If this is the case then Mr. Trump, the Casino Tycoon, is ironically sealing "winners take it all" mindset and embarking on "growth through sharing". Here, sharing means sharing with the USA, for no free lunches in his book...


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## maximuswarrior

Obama screwed up royally. Instead of viewing China a rival he could have joined the bandwagon. He didn't and now someone like Trump could surprisingly do a 360 and cooperate with China. This is welcome news.


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## FalconsForPeace

Connecting the Chinese city of Kashgar and the deep-water Pakistani port of Gwadar, the Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif inaugurated a new trade route known as the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC). The creation of this modern day “silk road” is an indicator of China’s growing desire to increase its influence in the Middle East and Pakistan’s shift closer to China.

The first convoy of Chinese trucks, carrying goods to be shipped abroad, arrived a day before this week’s opening at the newly-renovated port of Gwadar, after travelling more than 2,000 kilometers from Kashgar in Xinjiang province in western China. Gwadar, which is located some 300 miles from the strategic Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf, is a fuel hub as 20 percent of the world’s petroleum passes through the port city.

“CPEC is currently touted as a game changer for Pakistan, as it has the potential to forever alter the country’s economic trajectory,” Zeeshan Salauddin, Senior Research Fellow at Pakistan’s Center for Research and Security Studies, told The Media Line. “The $46 billion China has pumped into this pilot project for their much larger One Belt, One Road (OBOR) initiative not only indicates their confidence in Pakistan to start the massive process, but also relies on CPEC to be an unmitigated success.”

Costing $46 billion, the “One Belt, One Road”, otherwise known as The Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-century Maritime Silk Road. is Chinese President Xi Jinping’s linchpin project, aiming to affirm China’s paramount position in Asia and the Middle East. The CPEC part of it, expected to be completed in the next 15 years, also includes plans to create roads, rail and oil pipelines links, and will boost Pakistan’s economy, which is currently grappling with an acute economic crisis.

“This joint project represents a major shift in Pakistani policy,” Dr. Gareth Price, Senior Research Fellow at the Chatham House think tank in London, told The Media Line. “For decades Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have been the closest of allies.”

“But the tipping point came when Pakistan decided not to join the Saudi-led coalition fighting the Iranian-supported Houthi rebels in Yemen,” Price added.

Pakistan, a Sunni-majority country which shares a 600-mile border with Shiite Iran, is the only Muslim nuclear power. The Saudis believe that if they ever felt threatened by a nuclear Iran, Pakistan would come to their aid. Saudi Arabia also gives Pakistan cheap oil and cash infusions in times of need.

The world powers’ nuclear deal with Iran, which possesses huge hydrocarbon reserves, has been a big game changer. Pakistan is going through a serious energy shortage and preserving good relations with a nuclear-constrained Iran in a rapidly shifting diplomatic environment is a strategic move.

Analysts say that Pakistan might be cozying up to China in an effort to reduce its dependence on support from the United States, especially as the India-friendly US President-Elect assumes office in January 2017.

CPEC is also a way for the world’s second largest economy to expand its influence in the Middle East and counter both US and Indian influence. China is the biggest importer of Middle Eastern oil, and its dependence on imported oil and natural gas fueled the Chinese President’s visits to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Iran last earlier this year.

As Chinese ships now use the Strait of Malacca, a narrow passage between the Malay Peninsula and Indonesia, China is seeking convenient and reliable access to the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean. The proposed new route would give China the access it wants.

“Pakistan will inevitably need to improve diplomatic and trade ties with the Middle East in order to facilitate this plan (OBOR),” Salauddin said. “Gwadar city, for instance, already runs on electricity imported from neighboring Iran.”

“Pakistan will also need to present its case not as a competitor, but as an additional market, specifically catering to Central Asian states, as well as China and Russia, thereby opening doors and creating an interdependent system of inter-state economy with China-Pakistan at its core,” Salauddin added.

A serious problem threatening the success of CPEC is the fact the Gwadar port and many of the roads of the CPEC run are located in Baluchistan, the province where an Islamic State suicide bomber attacked a Sufi Shrine in November killing 52 people.

“China has problems with Islamic radicals in Xinxiang province,” explained Ailiya Naqvi, an analyst at the Pakistan Institute for International Affairs, to The Media Line.
According to Naqvi, both Xinxiang and Baluchistan are underdeveloped regions and this new economic partnership will not only create new infrastructure but also encourage investment and job opportunities, known to “put a lid on radicalism.”

For Price, CPEC is win-win for all those involved, with the exception of Pakistan’s long-time foe, India. “Part of CPEC’s infrastructure goes through the hotly contested Kashmir province. Things look okay now, but India is worried about what will happen if China decides to deploy military forces in the region to help Pakistan.”

Analysts are in agreement that massive Chinese investment will boost Pakistan’s economy but worry that Pakistan will become China’s client state, feeling like it has to align its policies with the economic giant.

http://www.themedialine.org/news/chinas-game-changing-route-middle-east/

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## cirr

*New train links Ningxia, Kazakhstan*

2016-11-16

YINCHUAN - A new train route connecting northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region and Kazakhstan has started operations. 

The first train, carrying almost 3,000 tonnes of freight in 45 compartments, arrived in Alma-Ata, the largest city in Kazakhstan, from Ningxia's Shizuishan City on November 12. 

The new route will greatly reduce delivery costs between Ningxia and Central Asia, according to Wang Feng, director of the Lanzhou Railway Bureau. 

The train will only run once this year, but will operate on a regular basis in the near future, the bureau added. 

Bordering Shaanxi and Gansu provinces, Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region is a major stop along the northern route of the ancient Silk Road. The opening of the new rail route is a key step to improving trade between China and Central Asia, which has been promoted under China's Belt and Road Initiative.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_27398143.htm

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## TaiShang

*ABB aims to cash in on Belt & Road *
China Daily, November 17, 2016




Ulrich Spiesshofer, CEO of ABB Group. [Photo provided to China Daily]


ABB Group, the Swiss power and automation company, wants to form more partnerships with China's power, transportation and energy companies to develop engineering, procurement and construction projects along the Belt and Road Initiative, to further diversify its global sales, said its global head.

Ulrich Spiesshofer, its chief executive officer, said with three years of development, the Belt and Road Initiative has proved to be a practical tool driving the growth of both global and Chinese companies.

Countries such as Turkey, Russia, Pakistan and India as well as countries in the Middle East and Africa all have demand in their markets to improve their power and infrastructure sectors, which is attractive to these companies.

The initiative has brought new opportunities in overseas projects for Chinese EPC companies. Chinese companies signed about 4,000 overseas EPC contracts in 60 countries and regions along the route of the initiative in 2015, while the total contract value reached $93 billion, according to data from the Ministry of Commerce.

ABB has provided tailor-made traction motors for the 95 trains designed by CRRC Tangshan Co Ltd for line 2 of the Izmir metro in Turkey.

The company also offered a 220 kV main substation solution to Sinopec for its EPC project in Atyrau Refinery, Kazakhstan, as well as supplying a 6,000 metric ton per-day cement processing line in Saudi Arabia for China National Building Material Corp and 420KV switchgears to China Machinery Engineering Co for its project in Angola's Soyo power plant.

EPC projects are a common form of contracting arrangement in the construction industry.

"We have deployed more than 30,000 employees across the world to help global cooperation which is an advanced platform for us to integrate the business with many sectors in different countries, not only in the fields of power or regional connectivity, we are also proficient in providing maritime equipments and solutions to our customers," said Spiesshofer.

The Swiss firm employs 18,000 people in China and operates 40 local firms across a sales and service network in 147 cities.

Claudio Facchin, president of ABB's power grids division worldwide, said ABB has partnered with Chinese companies to complete more than 1,000 projects over the past decade, which has significantly supported both industrial and infrastructure development.

"The power sector is undergoing unprecedented change both from a demand and supply perspective, with the influx of renewables being a major game changer. This not only requires the grid to become more flexible and reliable but also to be more intelligent and automated," said Facchin, who was previously stationed in Beijing and responsible for the company's operations in China and North Asia.

He said the company is providing key technologies for incorporating clean energy into conventional grids. For instance, its high-voltage direct-current technology can ensure efficient and reliable long-distance electricity transfer. ABB worked on the Xiangjiaba-Shanghai electricity transmission link which transfers enough clean energy across more than 2,000 kilometers to serve the needs of nearly 24 million users using HVDC technology.

ABB has more than 110 HVDC projects worldwide. It has been involved in 26 HVDC projects in China so far.

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## TaiShang

*China opens int'l tax service hotline* 
Xinhua, November 19, 2016

China opened an international tax service hotline on Friday in Shanghai, to boost the Belt and Road Initiative and international tax service exchange.

The hotline was launched at the 12366 Shanghai international tax service center, which was set up in January with the aim of conforming to international standards.

*The Shanghai tax service center and hotline aim to support the Belt and Road Initiative, China's free trade zones, the overseas investment of Chinese enterprises as well as international economic cooperation, said Wang Jun, director of the State Administration of Taxation, at the opening ceremony.*

A high-end international tax service platform will contribute to global investment and growth and a fairer and more open tax service system, said Wang.

The Shanghai center should strive to be a bridge for international taxation exchange and cooperation, he added

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## ahojunk

*Hamburg Summit to focus on Belt and Road Initiative*
2016-11-16 16:14 | Xinhua | _Editor: Mo Hong'e_

China's Belt and Road Initiative will be a key focus of the Hamburg Summit in Germany on Nov. 23 and 24, said Lars Anke, chief representative of Hamburg Liaison Office China.

Initiated by the Hamburg Chamber of Commerce, the Hamburg Summit is a major Sino-European economic conference that aims to boost exchanges and tap business opportunities for entrepreneurs from both countries, according to organizers.

German and Chinese companies are increasing bilateral trade and investment in light of the initiative and also seeking cooperation opportunities in ports, transportation and industrial automation, Anke told reporters Tuesday in Shanghai.

So far, over 550 Chinese companies have set up offices in Hamburg and more than 700 Hamburg businesses are engaged in trade with China. In 2015, Hamburg port handled 2.5 million container units (TEU) from and to China, a third of all handled in the German port.

Chinese companies have also increased investment in Germany, according to Peter Rothen, consul general of Germany in Shanghai.

Chinese companies have showed strong interest in Hamburg's digital market.

In June, Spearhead, a Beijing-based company, acquired mobile advertising platform Smaato from Hamburg for 148 million U.S. dollars. In April, Shanghai-based Youzu Interactive acquired Hamburg-based game developer Bigpoint with the aim of jointly building a global marketplace for online and mobile games.

Dutch chipmaker NXP is currently selling its high-tech semiconductor plant in Hamburg to a consortium consisting of Jianguang Asset Management and Wise Road Capital.

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## ahojunk

*Belt and Road trade, investment platform launched in Nepal*
2016-11-20 09:33 | Xinhua | _Editor: Huang Mingrui_

The Nepal Chapter of the Belt and Road International Trade and Investment Platform, a mutual exchange platform of global purchasers and suppliers, was launched here on Saturday.

It is the one of the private sector-led initiatives to promote the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road in Nepal with the Himalayan country already signing agreement with China to become a part of the Chinese initiative for global connectivity.

The Belt and Road initiative, proposed by China in 2013, brings together countries in Asia, Europe and even Africa via overland and maritime networks.

The international trade and investment platform was formed with a joint initiative of chamber of commerce, associations and authoritative organizations from all countries along the Belt and Road.

Nepalese Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Krishna Bahadur Mahara inaugurated the platform, which aims to enhance economic connectivity between China and Nepal as well as other Asian countries.

Chairman of Nepal Chapter Bhaskar Raj Rajkarnikar said the Nepal-based platform would basically focus on promoting four sectors - tourism and culture, international trade, financing and large investment in Nepal under the Belt and Road.

"Being a part of business communities linked with B&R, we can enhance foreign direct investment in Nepal from other countries associated with B&R," said Rajkarnikar, who is also former vice-president of Federation of Nepalese Chambers of Commerce and Industry, the apex private sector body of Nepal.

He told Xinhua that they would also work for developing Nepal as a transit route between China and South Asia as the Himalayan country is located between China and India.

During the visit of former Nepalese Prime Minister Sharma Oli to China in March, the two countries agreed to synergize each other's development planning, formulate appropriate bilateral cooperation programs and carry out major projects under the framework of the Belt and Road.

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## Shotgunner51

*China's Huge 'One Belt, One Road' Initiative Is Sweeping Central Asia*
_Posted November 21st, 2016 for The Heritage Foundation_
_Senior Research Fellow_
_Asian Studies Center_

Having overbuilt in many domestic industries—such as coal, cement and even solar panels—the Chinese government is redirecting its capital abroad. The aim is to reduce excessive industrial capacity at home while increasing financial returns. U.S. policymakers ought to be watching this very closely.

One of Beijing’s most ambitious foreign economic development initiatives aims to recreate the legendary Silk Road. Nicknamed One Belt One Road (OBOR), the project wields plenty of financial muscle. It launched in February 2014 with $40 billion (Edit: Silk Road Fund) — mostly drawn from Beijing’s bountiful foreign exchange reserves.

Since then, OBOR has begun attracting other foreign investors. Singapore’s state-owned development board (Edit: GIC, Sinagpore' sovereign welfare fund) has agreed to partner with China Construction Bank, committing about $22 billion to finance OBOR projects. International pension funds, insurance companies, sovereign wealth funds and private equity funds have also thrown in on OBOR projects in search of higher financial returns. *Chinese infrastructure investment projects now span the globe*.

Chinese companies have funded and built *roads, bridges and tunnels across Central Asia*, increasing trade and making China the dominant economic power in the region. In 2013, trade between China and the five Central Asian states (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan) totaled $50 billion, while the five states’ trade with Russia—previously the region’s top economic player—amounted to only $30 billion.

China has also redrawn Central Asia’s energy economics. *Chinese companies now own close to a quarter of Kazakhstan’s oil production and account for well over half of Turkmenistan’s gas exports*. Recently they signed $15 billion in gas and uranium deals with Uzbekistan.

China is also going global with its expertise in high-speed rail (HSR) construction. With more than twelve thousand miles of track laid, China has more HSR than the rest of the world combined. Now Beijing plans to build HSR networks connecting China with all of *Southeast Asia*.

*South America* will receive Chinese funding, as well. President Xi has pledged $250 billion over the next decade. This includes an *HSR system* spanning the Brazilian rain forest and traversing the Andean mountains. If that was not ambitious enough, Chinese business tycoon Wang Jing has announced his intent (though plans are currently stalled) to challenge the Panama Canal by building a $50 billion, 170-mile *canal crossing Nicaragua*.

Last year, the Chinese news agency Xinhua announced that Beijing had already completed over *one thousand projects in Africa*, including 2,233 kilometers of rail construction and 3,350 kilometers of highway paving. In January of this year, China announced that it would help build a series of *transportation grids (railroad, bridges and roads) linking 54 African countrie*s.

To penetrate the struggling but affluent European market (China’s largest trading partner), China is financing the upgrade of the *Greek port of Piraeus* and a $3 billion *bullet train from Belgrade to Budapest*. Another network of *rails, roads and pipelines*, starting in the Chinese central city of Xian, will stretch westward as far as *Belgium*. Beijing has already started building an *eight-thousand-mile cargo rail route between the Chinese city of Yiwu and Madrid*.

China is also in the lead for building a proposed HSR in *California*.

Equally important, are the other financial institutions, either Chinese-based or initiated by China. The *Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank* (to finance infrastructure construction throughout Asia) has fifty-seven member countries. China plans to provide much of the $100 billion in initial capital.

Then there is the *Export-Import Bank* of China, which lent more than $80 billion in 2015. This dwarfs the Asia Development Bank, which lent $27 billion over the same period.

China also plans to build a $46 billion economic corridor—pipeline, rail, roads, bridges and more—through *Pakistan*. The goal is to establish a trade route connecting Gwadar, a port on the Arabian Sea, to northwest China. This enormous project is driven in part by Beijing’s desire to build additional routes for its energy imports from the Middle East—to lessen its dependence on sea routes.

*Tehran* has been most receptive to Chinese infrastructure projects, hoping it will help make Iran a key trading hub between Europe and China. Earlier this year, the first freight train from eastern China—traveling through Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan—completed the journey in just fourteen days, compared to forty-five days by sea. Sino-Iranian trade increased from $4 billion in 2003 to $52 billion in 2014, and Tehran hopes to boost that figure to $600 billion over the next decade.
Naturally, the global infusion of Chinese capital has fostered some geopolitical tension as well. Moscow, for one, is far from pleased about losing preeminence in Central Asia, a region it had dominated for two centuries. China has built an oil pipeline from Kazakhstan and a gas pipeline that has allowed Turkmenistan to break its dependence on Russia.

The Chinese propensity to use their own labor on foreign projects has also prompted complaints in Africa and elsewhere that Chinese infrastructure investment primarily benefits Chinese contractors. Though there is a paucity of official data, it is estimated that at least one million private Chinese citizens have arrived in Africa since 2001. But with economic growth sharply slowing in most developing economies, Chinese capital investment seems welcomed—at least for now—in most countries.

Beijing’s desire to “go global” should not necessarily be viewed as a threat to American interests but more of a challenge to be managed. China’s size and trading status is quickly reshaping the economics and geopolitics of Asia. To maintain American economic influence, Washington must stay deeply engaged in the world as well.

http://www.pressreleasepoint.com/chinas-huge-one-belt-one-road-initiative-sweeping-central-asia

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## ahojunk

*Kazakhstan university may offer scholarships to Hong Kong students under ‘One Belt, One Road’*

Other speakers at forum organised by Polytechnic University also called for open-mindedness from local youth towards belt and road initiative

PUBLISHED : Friday, 25 November, 2016, 5:59pm
UPDATED : Friday, 25 November, 2016, 11:09pm 



 Shirley Zhao

One of the heads of a Kazakhstan university has said her institution is considering offering scholarships to Hong Kong students in a bid to strengthen connections with the city under China’s “One Belt, One Road” initiative.

Professor Loretta O’Donnell, vice-provost of Kazakhstan’s Nazarbayev University, was speaking at the ‘Nurturing Talent and Building Capacity in Supporting the Belt and Road Development’ forum, organised by Polytechnic University on Friday.

Also present was Stephen Ng Tin-hoi, chairman of the Hong Kong General Chamber of Commerce, who called for open-mindedness towards the policy and for people to see it as an opportunity for cultural and business exchange, instead of as political propaganda.






_Professor Loretta O’Donnell, vice-provost of Kazakhstan’s Nazarbayev University_

“The spirit of ‘One Belt, One Road’ is about knowledge, testing assumptions and finding what unites us,” said O’Donnell. “What can possibly be wrong with that? There will be business opportunities, intellectual opportunities and research opportunities.”

O’Donnell said *Hong Kong has been offering scholarships to Kazakhstani students, so the university wanted to do the same for students there*. But she said details about the plan have not been worked out yet.

O’Donnell said the university only had 14 out of some 4,000 students from overseas. The institution plans to increase the number of international students to about 20 per cent of the total enrolment by 2020.

She added that Hong Kong can benefit too by attracting Kazakhstani students.

“[The scholarships] are very generous, very timely and I think very carefully constructed, because the best students in Kazakhstan, I would argue, are as good as the best students in Hong Kong and in China,” O’Donnell said.

“We think we’ve got human capital, and I think the government of Hong Kong knows that.”

In June, Hong Kong’s Education Bureau set out a plan for a seed fund of HK$1 billion to provide – through investment returns – *about 100 scholarship places for students from countries under the belt and road initiative to pursue their undergraduate studies in Hong Kong or vice versa. Each scholarship recipient will get up to HK$120,000 a year*.

But student union leaders were sceptical about the plan, calling it propaganda to “please Chinese leaders”. They urged the government to use the fund to increase government-subsidised degree places for local students instead of giving it to overseas students.

General Chamber of Commerce chairman Ng said the city needed to attract more talent from overseas as there were “serious vacancies” in sectors such as construction, health care and aviation.

“Most businesses in Hong Kong are still trying to learn about the belt and road policy and what it means,” Ng said at the forum. “My answer is that it promises to open a new frontier for growth, which is sadly lacking in other parts of the world.”

Ng addded that Hong Kong youth could also seek personal development and more job opportunities from countries involved in the policy, because “*Hong Kong’s future is not in Hong Kong but around us*”.

Wu Wai-lok, a management student at Polytechnic University had visited some countries under the belt and road initiative on trips organised by the institution. She was hopeful about developing her career in these places, she said, because finding an ideal job locally had been increasingly hard for young people.

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## ahojunk

*Silk Road scholarships to expand China’s links to Eurasia*

Chinese universities will offer students in countries on the route of the One Belt, One Road initiative to study in mainland institutions

_*




Representatives and guests at a forum on supporting the One Belt, One Road initiative. 
Photo: Hong Kong Polytechnic University*_​
By LIN WANXIA NOVEMBER 28, 2016 4:04 PM (UTC+8)

China is set to broaden its connection with Eurasia by offering 100 Silk Road scholarships to attract students in countries on the route of the One Belt, One Road initiative.

“Each of the 100 scholarships will reach at least 50,000 yuan,” said Li Liang, the director of the International Cooperation and Exchange Department at Xi’an Jiaotong University during a forum on November 25 in Hong Kong. *The scholarships will primarily be offered to masters or doctoral students* in various fields of study, Li added.

Li was among senior administrative staff and students from more than 10 universities invited to attend the “International Forum: Nurturing Talent and Building Capacity in Supporting the Belt and Road Development”. Hong Kong Polytechnic University hosted the forum at Hotel ICON in Tsim Sha Tsui.

The Silk Road scholarships are part of plans by the *Universities Alliance of the New Silk Road*, which was initiated by Xi’an Jiaotong University in May 2015. It later *included 134 universities from 34 countries and regions, including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Turkey*.

With plans to set up policy studies centres, joint labs, summer schools and elite training programs, the alliance aims to serve as a leading education platform to cover the land-based “Silk Road Economic Belt.”

Chinese President Xi Jinping unveiled the One Belt, One Road development strategy in 2013 aimed at reviving the land and maritime Silk Roads dating back to the days of Marco Polo.

“Belt” refers to a vast area in Eurasia, and “Road” stands for the sea route that links China’s coastal cities to Africa and the Mediterranean, passing key ports in Southeast Asia and the Suez Canal.

Xi set up a *US$40 billion Silk Road infrastructure fund to kick-start the project*.

Earlier this year, HK$1 billion had been allocated to launch the One Belt, One Road scholarship by the Hong Kong government. The scholarship was first offered in Indonesia and is expected to further expand along the so-called marine Silk Road.

Malaysia could soon be the next country to benefit from the scholarship, after the Education Minister of Hong Kong, Eddie Ng Hak-kim, told the November 25 forum that he would visit the country and sign a memorandum on Monday.

However, critics say the Hong Kong government’s support of the One Belt, One Road initiative is aimed at flattering the central government.

The initiative has long been criticised for its vague definition and interpreted as political propaganda with an economic flavor that is really intended to reduce China’s overcapacity in steel and coal, by building infrastructure around the region.

“It is a collective responsibility and an opportunity for us to sign the primary drive of the collaboration that is represented by this initiative is to support a shared prosperity across the regions to involve,” said Dinah Birch, the pro-vice-chancellor of the University of Liverpool, at the forum.

She defended the initiative by reminding international society not to lose sight of the fact that fragmentation is not the path to the kind of prosperity people expect.

Birch was referring to the rising resistance to globalisation that was signalled by the Brexit outcome in the UK and the election of Donald Trump on November 8 as the next US president.

*Is China the next overseas education destination?*

With the increasing number of scholarships gradually covering all countries along both “the Belt” and “the Road”, the initiative is becoming the catalyst for making China the new top destination for international students.

According to the Education Ministry, the number of international students in China from One Belt, One Road countries like India, Pakistan and Kazakhstan saw an increase of over 10% in 2015 from a year earlier, which is the largest increase among the top 15 countries that sent students to China.

This number is likely to continue to grow. On August 11, the ministry announced an increase in the quota of central government scholarships for Belt and Road countries. In the next five years, 10,000 students per year from these regions will be sponsored to study in China.

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## ahojunk

Tianjin FTZ launches China-Europe freight train
_*- (Tianjin to Minsk)*_
(Xinhua) 17:30, November 21, 2016

A freight train departed a pilot economic zone in the northern coastal city of Tianjin for the first time Monday morning.

Loaded with *104 containers of construction materials*, it is the first China-Europe freight train to leave the Tianjin Pilot Free Trade Zone (FTZ), and is set to arrive in Minsk, capital of Belarus, around December 4.

The train will leave China via Erlianhaote Customs in northern China's Inner Mongolia and head to the China-Belarus Industrial Park in Minsk, according to the administrative committee for Tianjin Dongjiang Port Area. The return trip will carry goods to China, including *wood products from Belarus and surrounding countries*.

Scheduled to operate 20 times per year, the Tianjin-Minsk freight train will carry an annual total of 30,000 tonnes of goods, the committee said.

As the new China-Europe freight train service opens, the Dongjiang Port Area will play an important role in linking the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road with the Silk Road Economic Belt, the committee said.

The freight service is set to expand to more European cities in the future.


********

_One more OBOR train route to Europe, this one from Tianjin FTZ to Minsk, Belarus._
.

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## ahojunk

*China-Europe freight train to open new Moscow route by end of 2016*
(People's Daily Online) 16:58, November 04, 2016
_* - (Chengdu to Moscow)*_

_*




(File photo)*_​

A new route of the China-Europe freight train, from Chengdu, Sichuan province to Moscow, Russia, is expected to open by the end of 2016. Tao Xun, the general manager of Chengdu Industry Investment Corporation, disclosed the plan at a promotional event on Nov. 2.

Additionally, Tao stated that future China-Europe freight routes will cover the economic circles of the Yangtze River Delta, Pearl River Delta and Bohai Sea Rim, connecting with Hong Kong, Macau, South Korea, Japan and other ASEAN nations.

For routes starting from Chengdu, nodes in Poland, as well as terminals in Germany and Netherland, have been established. The lines will expand to 10 more terminals, including Paris, Madrid and Milan. Meanwhile, overseas warehouses and affiliated agencies will set up in interior cities along the lines.

Recently, Chengdu has been operating two routes for the China-Europe freight train. The middle route to Lodz, Poland opened in April 2013, by way of Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus. The southern route to Istanbul opened in September 2016, connecting Turkey, Iran and Georgia.


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## ahojunk

*The Countries Building The New Silk Road -- And What They're Winning In The Process*
Wade Shepard , 
CONTRIBUTOR | Forbes
I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find. 
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
NOV 22, 2016 @ 10:42 PM

When the Soviet Union fell the political and economic landscape of central Eurasia shattered into a melee of disconnected, dysfunctional shards as 14 new countries suddenly emerged in tandem with a pronounced political and economic vacuum. Whereas the Soviets, to varying degrees of success, organized the various realms under their control according to specific industrial and agricultural specialties — i.e. Georgia would build heavy machinery, Kazakhstan would produce wine, Azerbaijan would provide oil, etc. — and bolstered infrastructural and economic development along these respective designations, each post-Soviet state was suddenly left to rebuild its entire economy virtually from the ground up.

However, almost as soon as the Soviet Union disintegrated, the countries of Central Asia and the Caucasus began looking for ways to reconnect again. Inspiration for the future was soon taken straight from the pages of history. During the days of what had retroactively been dubbed the Silk Road the countries of Central Asia acted as land bridge, connecting the booming markets of China with those in Europe. Ancient Silk Road cities like Xi’an, Samarkand, Merv, Aleppo, and Baghdad all acted as major transshipment and manufacturing centers, where middlemen would relay wares between all points of the Eurasian landmass. While there is certainly a large amount of romance attached to this simplified rendering of history, this rendering is serving as a functional road map as to how the region is moving forward and developing today.





_A peddler and beggar in front of a propaganda poster for the Silk Road Economic Belt in Urumqi, in China’s far western Xinjiang region. Image: Wade Shepard._

Eurasia, as a contiguous continent stretching from the west of Europe to the eastern coast of China, is rapidly being drawn together into a massive market covering over 60 countries, 60% of the world’s population, 75% of energy resources, and 30% of GDP. Many plans have been brought forth by multiple regional players to guide this endeavor — the most dynamic of which is China’s multi-trillion dollar Belt and Road initiative — but the end goal of them all is the same: to create “win-win” solutions where all parties benefit by pursuing the similar goal of infrastructural development and economic integration.

“In order to create a situation where everybody is in the same boat in terms of economic development, they are putting together One Belt, One Road,” said Huang Jing of Singapore National University. “In other words, if everyone is economically in the same boat then if China goes up everybody goes up and if China goes down then everybody goes down. That’s the nature of the idea.”


*Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan*

Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan are resource-dependent nations who see the writing on the wall: relying on oil and gas for economic solvency is a gambler’s position — prices rise and plunge, alternately pumping the country with riches and plunging it down in a tailspin of recession, and their supplies are ultimately finite. Especially in the case of Azerbaijan, oil reserves are getting perilously low, and it has been estimated that the country only has 30 years of potential oil dependency left. So both countries have placed all or nothing bets on diversifying their economies, and one of the main ways they are doing so is by leveraging their geographic positions between China and Europe and creating key transportation hubs linking east and west.


*Russia*

Russia virtually stretches from one side of Eurasia to the other, and its participation in the New Silk Road initiative is imperative for its success. While Russia never really came out in outright opposition to the movement, and its Eurasian Customs Union was essential for the rise of trans-Eurasian rail transport, it initially viewed China’s involvement in Central Asia as an intrusion into its backyard. But this position has started changing as Russia’s might as a regional powerhouse has been decimated by low oil prices and U.S./EU sanctions over the Ukraine conflict. Effectively, these dire economic pressures has pushed the country into finding other means of sustenance, and its gaze inevitably fell eastward to China.

Joint economic projects between China and Russia have been on the rise ever since. These include less resistance to Belt and Road endeavors, more investment from and trade with China, and increased cooperation in industries such as aerospace, science, and finance. China recently created the plans for the impending Moscow to Kazan high-speed rail line, and then offered a $6 billion loan to help build it along with a proposal to extend it all the way to Beijing. Other Russo-Sino partnerships include efforts to trade in their own currencies rather than in dollars and Russia using China’s Unionpay electronic payment network rather than Plus or Cirrus.


*Georgia*

In the years immediately following the fall of the Soviet Union, Georgia’s economy was in shambles and civil war and revolution rang out across the country. It was a crisis situation for over a decade, and the country appeared to be on the trajectory of a failed state. But then in the mid-2000s the political situation stabilized and reforms were successfully initiated to curb corruption and better position the country as a target for international investment. The plan was to turn Georgia into a logistics and manufacturing hub in the heart of Eurasia, as a place where companies from every corner of the continent could meet in the middle to produce their wares cheaply and export them to Europe, Russia, Central Asia, Turkey, and Iran. Preferential and free trade deals were signed with neighboring countries as well as the EU, the CIS, the USA, and Japan, and Georgia fully jumped into China’s Belt and Road initiative, becoming one of the first countries to sign onto the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB).


*Pakistan*

Pakistan currently finds itself caught in the middle of prolonged geopolitical and security quagmire. With a marked political struggle with India to the southeast, and having Iran to the west and Afghanistan to the north, the country’s economic potential has been very much stunted. Partnering with China on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a core part of the Belt and Road initiative, is seen as a key way not only for Pakistan to improve its energy capacities, enhance its infrastructure, and bolster its economy — and, ideally, assuage terrorism and other security threats in the process.


*Sri Lanka*

In the later half of the 2000s Sri Lanka’s government was being brought up on war crimes by the UN Human Rights Council and subsequently found its sources of aid from the US and trade concessions from the EU cut off. The government, which up to that time had been very much aligned with India and the West, took this as an affront to its sovereignty and pursued alternative streams of economic sustenance. . . which, of course, led right into the arms of China.

Now a fundamental station on the China-led 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, Sri Lanka is engaging in large-scale infrastructure projects with China, which include Colombo Financial City — a financial center meant to rival Singapore and Dubai — a deep sea port in Hambantota, a new container terminal in Colombo’s port, the Mattala International Airport, and an impending 15,000 acre industrial zone that will reputedly attract 2,500 Chinese companies and create a million jobs. Although there have been multitudes of near catastrophic political, administrative, and debt problems associated with building this new infrastructure, the country’s prime minister still refers to it a once in a lifetime opportunity to jump-start development and generate a high-income society.


*Europe*

The European Union has found itself in a period of economic stagnancy, which has in some places teetered on the brink of all out collapse. With a current GDP growth rate of 1.6%, the only continent in the world with slower economic growth than Europe is Antarctica. Not only are many countries in the Eurozone at a virtual economic standstill in terms of growth, but some are actually going backwards — Greece’s economy is 27.6% smaller than before the 2008 economic crisis, while Spain and Portugal’s economies are 4.5% and 6.5% smaller, respectively. While the continent may not currently be in a state of crisis it could certainly use some additional economic stimulation.

As the EU is the western endpoint of all five routes of the New Silk Road, it conceivably stands to gain from this increased access to markets throughout Eurasia.

First of all, as new bilateral trade pacts between China and countries like Poland, the Czech Republic, and Serbia show, these enhanced trade corridors are opening up new destinations for European exports, such as Polish apples, Dutch veal, and French wines. Europe produces the kind of products that China’s newly arisen middle and upper classes are hungry for, and the new trade routes going into the heart of the world’s largest consumer market will not have anything but a positive economic impact on Europe.

Secondly, the potential benefit to Europe of improved infrastructure throughout its eastern realms, the CIS, Caucasus, and South Asia, should not be underestimated. According to the Bruegel Institute, a 10% reduction in railway, air, and maritime transportation costs increases trade by 2%, 5.5% and 1.1% respectively. From Bruegel’s estimates, European trade may be boosted by more than 6% simply from infrastructural improvements at the hands of the Belt and Road initiative. A double bonus to the EU comes from the fact that they don’t have to pay much for this development, as the bill is mostly being footed by China and other countries along the various routes.

Thirdly, the Belt and Road means large amounts of money being injected into Europe. According to the Mercator Institute for China Studies, China is projected to triple its global assets to $20 trillion by 2020, and much of this is flowing right into the EU. Chinese M&A and other forms of FDI are already growing at a record pace in Europe, and this will more than likely continue growing as the Belt and Road develops.

The countries of Southeastern Europe are also aiming to benefit in a big way from Silk Road infrastructure and investment. Falling into the crack between Russia and the EU, countries such as Serbia, Romania, and Macedonia are looking to China to help assuage their economic woes. Already, China has planned big investments in the region in the form of transportation infrastructure — which includes the proposed Greece to Hungary high-speed rail line and several major highways – currency swaps, and renewable energy development, as the somewhat contrived 16+1 platform starts to become a driving force for regional integration.


*China*

Meanwhile, China has also been plunging through an entire array of major economic transitions of its own, which its multi-trillion dollar Belt and Road endeavor was created to be a solution for aspects of.

First of all, China is starting to mature economically — the growth engines are downshifting into a lower gear, the tertiary sector is overtaking the secondary, and the country’s wage advantage is rapidly vanishing. International investment is being used as a new way to bolster economic growth, acquire new technologies, and secure the country’s westward trade routes and supply lines, of which the Belt and Road is the primary vehicle.

While Chinese exports will certainly be stimulated via the Belt and Road, the big story is in the exporting of Chinese businesses — especially low-level manufacturing capacity — along its various routes. This essentially tethers businesses to the mainland that would otherwise freely drift away from its shores or go under altogether. So China’s manufacturers too are following the global tide and are setting up operations in countries like Vietnam, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, were the wages are cheaper and the infrastructural capacities are growing rapidly in part due to big investments via the ADB, World Bank, and the Belt and Road’s various financing vehicles.

Secondly, China’s heavy industries are currently in a painful period of reform, and many are facing major overcapacity issues. While it is my impression that fears of China dumping large amounts of cheap steel and other industrial commodities onto global markets via the Belt and Road are largely unfounded — the governments of the world have already shown that they are wise to this — a reasonable amount of Chinese-invested infrastructure will be built with Chinese steel, glass, and concrete, thus providing a much-needed demand for excessive supply.

Third, China’s “Go West” policy has led to the complete overhaul and exponential expansion of cities throughout the country’s central and western regions, which has created a new demand for westbound overland trade routes. So rather than having manufacturing centers in western cities like Chengdu, Xi’an, Lanzhou, and Urumqi having to ship their exports all the way across the country to the east coast to be shipped to western markets by sea, they can have the option to transport a reasonable volume of high-value goods directly westward overland via newly established rail lines.

“As we know, in western China provinces like Xinjiang and Gansu will grow nearly eight to ten percent during the next ten years, that’s why they need our roads for export and to connect with the big markets,” explained Murat Bekmagambetov, the director of the department of strategic planning at KTZ, Kazakhstan’s national railway. “We can make our opportunity [by making] our infrastructure and their goals have synergy.”

On top of this comes the unlikely — but still conceivable — reality that a US-led naval blockade of the Straight of Malacca could cut China off from its energy supply lines and trade routes in the Middle East and Europe, which has made the creation of a variety of alternative access points to the sea of national importance. Currently, two main land-to-sea corridors are being constructed — one going south from Kunming, in China’s Yunnan province, through Myanmar to the coast, and another cutting south from Xinjiang through Pakistan to Gwadar port on the Indian Ocean.


*Conclusion*

Dozens of countries from all corners of Eurasia are finding similar solutions for a wide array of economic challenges through joining together in a common ambition: to further integrate and reconnect the continent via a single enhanced infrastructure, energy, and economic grid. At this juncture the dominant rhetoric is that there is more to gain by working together than standing alone, and this synergy of national ambitions is what is meant by “win-win” partnerships along the New Silk Road.

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. _

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## onebyone

*China's $4 trillion OBOR will span 65 countries with 70% of the world's population*

China’s “One Belt, One Road” (OBOR) initiative is at the center of Asia's infrastructure buildout. Geographically, OBOR could span 65 countries responsible for roughly 70 percent of the world’s population. Economically, it could include Chinese investments approaching $4 trillion.

Asia's infrastructure market is growing by 8 percent annually over the next decade, rising to nearly 60 percent of the global total. All told, the region’s infrastructure needs are estimated to exceed $1 trillion annually.


Behind these big numbers are some big questions. To begin with, how is this mega-initiative manifesting itself on the ground? Are new projects economically viable? Looking further ahead, how might these new connections reshape flows of goods, people, data and ideas? What new economic and political realities might emerge?

There are also early signs of progress on the ground. As of mid-year, 39 railways between China and Europe were operational. Last month, a cargo train completed the first trip from China to Afghanistan.
Russian officials have welcomed China’s efforts in their backyard, even suggesting OBOR could be linked with the Eurasian Economic Union. Additionally, Russia aims to increase connectivity with Azerbaijan, Iran, and India through the North-South Transport Corridor. The route could cut transit costs by 30 percent and time by 40 percent from today’s 40-day maritime journey. It will take a major step forward in the coming months, when Iran and Azerbaijan’s railways are connected for the first time.

Asia is also connecting internally, especially in South and Southeast Asia. Though primarily focused on increasing connectivity within its own borders, India is working to strengthen links with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN). Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Act East” policy aims to give India’s landlocked northeast region better access to its southern ports. It also revives the Trilateral Highway, an ambitious plan to connect India, Myanmar, and Thailand by road. Despite delays, India announced last month that it will extend the project to Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam.

According to a study by the McKinsey Global Institute, countries with more connections to global flows of trade, finance, people, and data grow by up to 40 percent more than less-connected countries. By continuing to drive demand, a more connected and integrated Asia would also benefit the rest of the world.

A study looks at two OBOR projects: Khorgos Gateway on the Kazakh-Chinese border and the Padma Bridge in Bangladesh. The goal is not to pass judgment on OBOR’s overall prospects, which could take years to assess and even longer to fully unfold. But it begins to lay the groundwork for a more comprehensive investigation. In particular, both cases illustrate the significant economic potential of today’s projects as well as the considerable barriers they’ll need to overcome.





The Khorgos Gateway was empty but is now a key part of China’s “One Belt, One Road” initiative. This area is now home to a massive industrial zone and logistics center called Khorgos Gateway. It’s equipped with customs and immigration facilities, cranes for switching containers between different railroad gauges, and dormitories for thousands of workers.

Some have said this spot could become a “New Dubai” if rail transport between Asia and Europe takes off in the coming years. By 2020, they estimate economic activity here will have increased 20-fold, supporting 50,000 jobs. For context, that’s roughly 40 percent of the surrounding district’s current population.

But success of these new overland routes is far from assured. Compared to sea freight, rail cuts the travel time between Asia and Europe in half. However, it’s also 2-5 times more expensive, which is one reason why 90 percent of today’s international trade travels by sea. To be sure, paying more for faster service makes sense for some products. In some cases, the additional transportation cost can be offset by lower inventory costs.

At least three challenges suggest maritime shipping could remain dominant. First, the shipping industry is overcapacity, compelling shipping companies to slash costs and even merge. Second, artic sea lanes are becoming more accessible. Finally, there are trade imbalances between Europe and China that make it difficult to sustain rail operations, underscored by the fact that a significant portion of rail containers return to China empty.

Of course, each of these factors could change in the future. For example, as Asian incomes rise, demand for European exports could increase. For the foreseeable future, however, each presents a significant challenge to the viability of new Asia-Europe overland routes.





The positive impact of new hard infrastructure will depend heavily on upgrading the region’s “soft” infrastructure. Imagine for a moment that every piece of Asian Highway 1 is completed. There would still be plenty of barriers to overcome: inefficient customs procedures, laws requiring goods to be unloaded and put on local trucks, and of course, corruption.
http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/chinas-obor-4-trillion-will-span-65.html

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## Jlaw

Nice. A big project like this can only be pull off by China. 4 trillion . Putting money to good use

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## haidian

*One Belt One Road will be 12 times America's Marshall Plan after adjusting for inflation*
*



*

*http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/05/one-belt-one-road-will-be-12-times.html*

China becomes the center of the world again.

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## Jlaw

Marshall plan? How that work out?

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## Kaniska

If China can pull off with his project, world economic activity will shift from West and Europe to Asia. I wish all the best and i hope we can see it in our generation.

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## TaiShang

onebyone said:


> The positive impact of new hard infrastructure will depend heavily on upgrading the region’s “soft” infrastructure. Imagine for a moment that every piece of Asian Highway 1 is completed. There would still be plenty of barriers to overcome: inefficient customs procedures, laws requiring goods to be unloaded and put on local trucks, and of course, corruption.
> http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/chinas-obor-4-trillion-will-span-65.html



Padma bridge is about to be completed.

*China sends first span of Bangladesh's largest Padma Bridge*

Source: Xinhua | 2016-08-09 

DHAKA, Aug. 9 (Xinhua) -- First Made in China span for Bangladesh's largest Padma bridge has reached the project site.

The 150-meter span weighing some 2900 tones was made of steel plate with 20-80mm thickness in a Chinese factory.

Obaidul Quader, Bangladesh's road transport and bridges minister, said all the 41 spans for the bridge will gradually arrive from China.

Regarding the bridge's construction progresses, Quader said 37 percent of the works have been done.

The first span will be put on the bridge pillars by the end of the year, he said.

His ministry said in a statement Monday night that from now on one or two spans will arrive from China every month.

In December last year, Bangladeshi Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina inaugurated the main works of the country's largest Padma Bridge project by unveiling its foundation plaque.

She had also unveiled the plaque of the river training works, the second most costly component of the 3-billion-U.S. dollar project conducted by one of the largest international companies, Sinohydro Corporation Limited.

Experts say the bridge, when it comes into operation in 2018, will ease pressure on the country's premier seaport in Chittagong, 242 km southeast of capital Dhaka, as it will bolster the second largest Mongla seaport in Bagerhat district, 178 km southwest of the capital city.

In June 2014, the Bangladeshi government awarded China Major Bridge Engineering Company Limited a 1.55-billion-U.S. dollar contract to build core structure of the Padma Bridge project which is to be completed in four years.

The 25-meter-wide and 10-km-long bridge will be built over Padma River, one of the three major rivers in Bangladesh.

About 6.15 km of the bridge is being built over the river while the remaining part on both banks.

Apart from connecting nearly 30 million people in Bangladesh's southwest region to the rest of the country, the bridge will enhance regional trade and collaboration along the Asian highway No. 1 and the Trans-Asian railway network.

***



Jlaw said:


> Nice. A big project like this can only be pull off by China. 4 trillion . Putting money to good use



According to ABD study, Asia will need about $800 billion every year by 2020 to meet the basic infrastructure needs. That means tons of steel, cement and glass as well as millions of workhours and countless machinery put into use.

I see this as a Great Deal of China.

US Great Deal was an isolationist but poverty eliminating project.

China, thanks to its longer historical memory and great power status, thinks more global, turning US Great Deal, under the OBOR, into a Eurasian super-build up project.

Those who with deeper historical memory usually win in the end.

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## Dungeness

"*Building for the world*", that is what a real "*Responsible Great Power*" should do for the sake of Humanity.

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## TaiShang

Dungeness said:


> "*Building for the world*", that is what a real "*Responsible Great Power*" should do for the sake of Humanity.



The difference is stark and clear:






@Shotgunner51 , @AndrewJin , @Jlaw , @terranMarine , @Chinese-Dragon

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## Shotgunner51

Kaniska said:


> If China can pull off with his project, world economic activity will shift from West and Europe to Asia. I wish all the best and i hope we can see it in our generation.




Yes I wish the same my friend.

Situation of global economic activities: In *production domain*, global center of gravity is in the East which accounts for more than rest-of-the-world combined in most categories, from civil engineering, heavy industries to electronics. The exactly opposite happens in *consumption domain*, which is centered in the West.

Long term risk: This *highly polarized status quo* is the source of global imbalance in payments, posing increasing severe financial challenges to existing world order.

Getting a way out: OBOR initiative (and in broader context, the Global South) aims at creating *new consumption markets, new production bases*, in the world between East and West.​

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## terranMarine

TaiShang said:


> The difference is stark and clear:
> 
> View attachment 357927



This super mega project is so grand it's just simply incredible. It's all about connectivity, truly a remarkable feat once the whole thing is completed and all of this comes from the visionary leader Xi
On the other side of this exciting continents (Asia, Central Asia, part of the ME, NW Africa, Eurasia and Europe) there's a new POTUS who wants to replicate an ancient Chinese invention namely The Great Wall. Trump intends to make America great again by keeping Mexicans and other South Americans out. Now i'm not sure if that's gonna help but i guess we'll just have to wait and see for the results.

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## Shotgunner51

terranMarine said:


> there's a new POTUS who wants to replicate an ancient Chinese invention namely The Great Wall




Trump "steals" this idea? We couldn't care less, let's go Latin America.







https://defence.pk/threads/as-trump-talks-wall-china-builds-bridges-to-latin-america.461733/page-2

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## Viet

onebyone said:


> China’s “One Belt, One Road” (OBOR) initiative is at the
> 
> Of course, each of these factors could change in the future. For example, as Asian incomes rise, demand for European exports could increase. For the foreseeable future, however, each presents a significant challenge to the viability of new Asia-Europe overland routes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The positive impact of new hard infrastructure will depend heavily on upgrading the region’s “soft” infrastructure. Imagine for a moment that every piece of Asian Highway 1 is completed. There would still be plenty of barriers to overcome: inefficient customs procedures, laws requiring goods to be unloaded and put on local trucks, and of course, corruption.
> http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/chinas-obor-4-trillion-will-span-65.html


the Asian highway will run through Vietnam?

sound logical. we are seeking funds to finance north-south highway and highspeed railway. everybody is welcome to contribute with donations. otherwise we will charge our lovely foreigners when they use our infrastructures

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## TaiShang

Viet said:


> the Asian highway will run through Vietnam?
> 
> sound logical. we are seeking funds to finance north-south highway and highspeed railway. everybody is welcome to contribute with donations. otherwise we will charge our lovely foreigners when they use our infrastructures



Inclusion of Vietnam into the OBOR framework would be a win-win.

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## TaiShang

Take a look at the map of Eurasia.






Turkey appears to be, by dialectical super forces, placed at a critical geographic location in providing a bridge between East Asia and Europe, especially the Mediterranean Europe.

Thus, it should be advantageous in the New Silk Road expansion. However, so far, China has established strong land connections with Europe via the Northern Eurasian Corridor, having direct access to Western Europe through Central Asia, Russia, and Eastern Europe.

Now China has over 40 rail lines toward Western Europe, consolidated into three major rail linkages.

The maritime linkage to Europe, however, is still the big question.

Turkey has little relevance in land connection but, in theory, it should have big advantage as far as the maritime connection to Western Europe is concerned.

But it happens not to be the case and, as I argue, it won't be the case for various geopolitical and historical reasons.

So what is the alternative New Silk Road route that by-passes Turkey?

Now, look again at the map above and find Georgia.

China has been building a deep sea port in Anaklia, west of Georgia, which is said to be twice as big in capacity than Turkish ports, and will include FTZs and other amenities.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...a-port-set-to-transform-georgia/#6b7f06a03f47






When complete, cargoes will be delivered by rail to the port and, from there, will be loaded onto vessels to be delivered to European destinations via the Black Sea.

How to by pass Turkey? By establishing a ferry and ro-ro ships between Anaklia in Georgia and Constanta in Romania. This is the northern by-pass route.

Another by-pass route is via Cyprus. China (COSCO) plans to operate a port there.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2016-01/29/content_23301148.htm

_"Foreign Minister Wang Yi said during a visit to Nicosia last month that China is interested in operating Cypriot ports and wants to help turn the eastern Mediterranean island nation into a regional shipping hub."
_
I think what remains to Turkey is to urgently reconfigure its foreign policy priorities and make itself a peninsula of stability in the region, from which the region becomes stabilized. This is hard work and what has been destroyed in the region over the past five years cannot be rebuilt in less than 10 years.

But, the ultimate result may worth the effort.

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## terranMarine

must drop Turkey

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## Beast

Turkey is not in any strategic position. Most of Chinese goods are destinate to rich western countries and Russia which the Belarus, Poland route to Germany looks more promising.

The turkey route is too complicated and need approval from too many countries plus their purchasing power is not strong. It is very logic, turkey are dropped.

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## TaiShang

Beast said:


> Turkey is not in any strategic position. Most of Chinese goods are destinate to rich western countries and Russia which the Belarus, Poland route to Germany looks more promising.
> 
> The turkey route is too complicated and need approval from too many countries plus their purchasing power is not strong. It is very logic, turkey are dropped.



Any link to Turkey has to go through various South Asian countries. I guess that still would be a potential route but Syrian War destroyed all the likelihood. Now, the northern route is the most viable.

The ongoing Georgia route is also important to link up with many Eastern European countries such as Bulgaria, Hungary, Serbia etc.

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## Azeri440

TaiShang said:


> Any link to Turkey has to go through various South Asian countries. I guess that still would be a potential route but Syrian War destroyed all the likelihood. Now, the northern route is the most viable.
> 
> The ongoing Georgia route is also important to link up with many Eastern European countries such as Bulgaria, Hungary, Serbia etc.



nope, it would go through the same connection China would use to get to Georgia, currently Azerbaijan is building a port in the Caspian Sea, along with Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, ferries and cargo ships will move the cargo across the Caspian. Azerbaijan, Turkey and Georgia are also building a railway connection 











in terms of Eastern European nations, they have their own railway project which also involves Turkey Georgia and Azerbaijan, and also includes Ferry transport, project is called viking






its is impossible to avoid Turkey, the biggest reason China is using land as a new way of transportation to Europe is due to speed, once Turkey completes railway tunnel to Europe, the fastest way is through Turkey.

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## TaiShang

Azeri440 said:


> nope, it would go through the same connection China would use to get to Georgia, currently Azerbaijan is building a port in the Caspian Sea, along with Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, ferries and cargo ships will move the cargo across the Caspian. Azerbaijan, Turkey and Georgia are also building a railway connection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in terms of Eastern European nations, they have their own railway project which also involves Turkey Georgia and Azerbaijan, and also includes Ferry transport, project is called viking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its is impossible to avoid Turkey, the biggest reason China is using land as a new way of transportation to Europe is due to speed, once Turkey completes railway tunnel to Europe, the fastest way is through Turkey.



I am not interested what other routes are being built. I am not sure how much of it has been built. But, what I know is the ground work going on is a port in Georgia and a ferry/ro-ro link to Romania.

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## Azeri440

TaiShang said:


> I am not interested what other routes are being built. I am not sure how much of it has been built. But, what I know is the ground work going on is a port in Georgia and a ferry/ro-ro link to Romania.



yes, and the cargo goes through Azerbaijan to Georgia











both ports in Azerbaijan and Georgia are pretty much being built at the same speed and similar capacity, by the time Georgian port is completed, other infrastructure projects in the region will also be completed.

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## GeraltofRivia

TaiShang said:


> I am not interested what other routes are being built. I am not sure how much of it has been built. But, what I know is the ground work going on is a port in Georgia and a ferry/ro-ro link to Romania.



Wow, I did not realize (due to the fact that I did not study the map carefully) that Georgia is in such a great location. Once it completes building the Black Sea port, together with the Azerbaijan's port in the Caspian Sea, a rail-ferry link to Europe will be established. I suppose Turkey is still very welcomed in joining the mega project but the dependency would be reduced significantly.

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## TaiShang

Azeri440 said:


> yes, and the cargo goes through Azerbaijan to Georgia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both ports in Azerbaijan and Georgia are pretty much being built at the same speed and similar capacity, by the time Georgian port is completed, other infrastructure projects in the region will also be completed.



Hence the argument that the purpose of building a port is to by-pass Turkey. Otherwise, land connection via Turkey into Europe would suffice.

The fact that a major port is being built is very interesting.



GeraltofRivia said:


> Wow, I did not realize (due to the fact that I did not study the map carefully) that Georgia is in such a great location. Once it completes building the Black Sea port, together with the Azerbaijan's port in the Caspian Sea, a rail-ferry link to Europe will be established. I suppose Turkey is still very welcomed in joining the mega project but the dependency would be reduced significantly.



Yes, it is well-located and the port makes it even more interesting.

Of course, there would be other links, also via Turkey, in the future, but, as you say, China definitely wants to diversify the strategic options when it comes to multiple linkages to the eventual destination, Western Europe.


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## GeraltofRivia

Azeri440 said:


> yes, and the cargo goes through Azerbaijan to Georgia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both ports in Azerbaijan and Georgia are pretty much being built at the same speed and similar capacity, by the time Georgian port is completed, other infrastructure projects in the region will also be completed.



This is great development! looking forward to linking it up from coast to coast!

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## Azeri440

TaiShang said:


> Hence the argument that the purpose of building a port is to by-pass Turkey. Otherwise, land connection via Turkey into Europe would suffice.
> 
> The fact that a major port is being built is very interesting.



Chinese strategy is to develop multiple routes and not rely on a single route, but time will tell how it will all play out in few years.

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## GeraltofRivia

Azeri440 said:


> Chinese strategy is to develop multiple routes and not rely on a single route, but time will tell how it will all play out in few years.



I suppose the reason of having multiple routes is not just for transportation purpose, more importantly the intention is that they will facilitate economic growth along multiple corridors. A rich friend is a happy friend!

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## TaiShang

GeraltofRivia said:


> This is great development! looking forward to linking it up from coast to coast!



The Silk Road being a multinational development project, China has to take into consideration many factors, including geopolitics. Currently and in the foreseeable future, staying away from Turkey make more sense. Hence the heavy concentration on the routes that by-passes Turkey.

This is in no way a hostile position, it is the pragmatic position. Turkey can still benefit from it but definitely not as much as it would ideally have.

The port being built in Georgia will be quite immense, meeting the needs of increased trade many many years to come. This is a big score on part of the Georgian leadership.


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## Shotgunner51

Azeri440 said:


> yes, and the cargo goes through Azerbaijan to Georgia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both ports in Azerbaijan and Georgia are pretty much being built at the same speed and similar capacity, by the time Georgian port is completed, other infrastructure projects in the region will also be completed.



Good to know, check these progress







*China to send new test trains via TITR*
By Rashid Shirinov






Railways agencies of Azerbaijan and China agreed to send another five test container trains on the *Trans-Caspian International Transportation Route (TITR)* through Azerbaijan.

Nadir Azmammadov, the spokesperson for Azerbaijan Railways announced about this while talking to Trend on October 25.

He noted that the cooperation between the railways of Azerbaijan and China is being expanded.

The issue of boosting the cooperation was mulled in China, as Head of Azerbaijan Railways CJSC Javid Gurbanov visits Chengdu city to meet with Chen Zhongwei, Director of the municipal port and logistics center of the city, and Fan Yun, Director of international rail services of Chengdu.

The sides discussed economic opportunities, export potential of China’s Sichuan province and the routes for export of local goods to Europe, as well as the opportunities of TITR.

*The Chinese side expressed its interest in TITR and desire to create a regional hub in Azerbaijan*, given the country’s favorable geographical location.

Chinese partners also noted that with a view to increase trade with such countries as Iran, Turkey, and countries of southern Europe, they are going to arrange dispatch of cargo trains through Azerbaijan in the framework of One Belt, One Road project, Azmammadov said.

This project involves the use of TITR, and increase of trains' number.

Hence, the parties came to an agreement on sending five test container trains on TITR until the end of the year, as well as decided to hold next bilateral meeting in Baku.

*The Trans-Caspian international transport route, which is designed to provide transport connections between the East and West of Eurasia, runs through China, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and then to Europe via Turkey and Ukraine*. The route was launched with the establishment of its Coordinating Committee in October 2013. The first test container train from China arrived at the Baku International Sea Trade Port on August 3, 2015.






The agreement to create the *Trans-Caspian International Transportation Consortium* was signed in April 2016 in Baku by the railway authorities of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Kazakhstan.

In January, 2016, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Ukraine decided to apply the competitive feed-in tariffs for cargo transportation via the TITR. Single competitive rate was introduced in the framework of the route starting from June 1, 2016 with the view to reduce the costs of international cargo transportation.

About 300,000-400,000 containers are expected to be transported via the Trans-Caspian international transport route by 2020, bringing huge financial profits to Azerbaijan. Growing interest in the transport infrastructures passing through Azerbaijan's territory is expected to make the country a major transport hub in the region.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/one-belt-one-road-news-info-analysis.349603/page-401#ixzz4S3Ai7z3r






​*China interested in creation of transport hub in Azerbaijan (PHOTO)*
25 October 2016 19:59 (UTC+04:00)
Baku, Azerbaijan, Oct. 25
By Maksim Tsurkov – Trend:






Railway authorities of Azerbaijan and China have agreed to send five more test container trains via the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route through Azerbaijan, head of the press service of Azerbaijan Railways CJSC Nadir Azmammadov told Trend Oct. 25.

He said the expansion of cooperation between the railway authorities of the two countries continues.

_“Chairman of Azerbaijan Railways CJSC Javid Gurbanov held a meeting in China’s Chengdu with director of the city’s municipal port and logistics office, as well as director of the city’s international railway service,” _said Azmammadov.

The sides discussed economic opportunities, the export potential of Chinese province of Sichuan, routes for export of goods produced in Sichuan to Europe, as well as opportunities of the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route, Azmammadov added.

The Chinese side expressed its interest in the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route and the desire to create a regional hub in Azerbaijan, given its geographical location.

_“The Chinese partners noted that in order to increase trade turnover with such countries as Iran, Turkey and the countries of southern Europe, they are going to organize the shipment of freight trains through Azerbaijan within the ‘One Belt, One Road’ project,” _said Azmammadov.

_“The project involves using the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route, as well as increasing the number of trains on it,” _he added.

Azmammadov said the parties came to an agreement on sending five test container trains via the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route before late 2016, and also decided to hold the next bilateral meeting in Baku.

The agreement to create the Trans-Caspian International Transportation Consortium was signed in April in Baku by the railway authorities of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Kazakhstan.

New competitive tariffs were introduced for the Trans-Caspian International Transport Route on June 1, 2016.

The *Trans-Caspian International Transport Route* runs through *China, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia and then through Turkey and Ukraine to Europe*.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/one-belt-one-road-news-info-analysis.349603/page-401#ixzz4S3BCm2z0

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## Zulkarneyn

Bullocks. West Asia and East Europe is almost entirey dependant on Turkish economy as the biggest economy in that part of the world. Whether China decides to build train/sea routes via Turkey or not is not going to significantly affect Turkey's current and prosptective role in its region. Turkey is still the second largest NATO power and in the G20 and regional power. That a proxy war is ongoing in Syria isn't going to affect Turkey's current rise in terms of Geopolitical and Economical rise.

Look at that map again almost all Central Asian countries are Turkic, who have deep cultural, academical, economical and political bonds with Turkey

Thanks god ignorant comments uttered in this thread isn't shared by the upper CPC experts.


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## TaiShang

Zulkarneyn said:


> Bullocks. West Asia and East Europe is almost entirey dependant on Turkish economy as the biggest economy in that part of the world. Whether China decides to build train/sea routes via Turkey or not is not going to significantly affect Turkey's current and prosptective role in its region. Turkey is still the second largest NATO power and in the G20 and regional power. That a proxy war is ongoing in Syria isn't going to affect Turkey's current rise in terms of Geopolitical and Economical rise.
> 
> Look at that map again almost all Central Asian countries are Turkic, who have deep cultural, academical, economical and political bonds with Turkey
> 
> Thanks god ignorant comments uttered in this thread isn't shared by the upper CPC experts.




You misunderstood the entire thread. We are not talking about Silk Road's impact on Turkey's future role in the region.

The ground reality is that there have been over 40 rail lines and countless road-lines extending to Europe and none (zero) passes through Turkey.

China is building a deep port (twice as big as any ports Turkey has) in Georgia, not in Turkey, for a reason.

This must be due to a calculated move by the very policy makers in the Chinese government (there is no such thing as CPC experts).

I am not interested how important Turkey is by itself. Especially the NATO part is in fact a good reason for China to avoid Turkey.

I am not saying Turkey is not important. It may be. But, so far, within the context of the Silk Road, Turkey has been sidelined and by-passed, which I find extremely interesting.

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## Zulkarneyn

TaiShang said:


> You misunderstood the entire thread. We are not talking about Silk Road's impact on Turkey's future role in the region.
> 
> The ground reality is that there have been over 40 rail lines and countless road-lines extending to Europe and none (zero) passes through Turkey.
> 
> China is building a deep port (twice as big as any ports Turkey has) in Georgia, not in Turkey, for a reason.
> 
> This must be due to a calculated move by the very policy makers in the Chinese government (there is no such thing as CPC experts).
> 
> I am not interested how important Turkey is by itself. Especially the NATO part is in fact a good reason for China to avoid Turkey.
> 
> I am not saying Turkey is not important. It may be. But, so far, within the context of the Silk Road, Turkey has been sidelined and by-passed, which I find extremely interesting.



Could it be that China has opted for a major port in Georgia due to it geographical location (Black Sea), it's closer to China and it makes no sense to build a port to the Black Sea in Turkey as these exist already. Furthermore, it's infeasible and almost impossible for a foreign nation to build ports in Turkey - (in a hypothetical case China built a port in Turkey, Turkish authorites wouldn't allow any Chinese interference in its operation), as Turkey is already capable and has been building ports for centuries on our own terms. 

In other words none bypasses Turkey, China makes the most of utilizing its potential in an underdeveloped poor country that desires foreign investments in any form and shape (in this case giving much freedom to Chinese construction firms, followed by possible Chinese oil/gas giant companies inside their borders). The exact same way China operates in poor countries in Africa that desires investment even at the expense of selling land and rights at a minimum or no price at all. 

In other words China opts for the long term game, to be exact this is a win/win (positive sum game) situation for both countries in many respects, but it happens so due to Georgia's poor situation, the exact same way with African nations and China.


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## Shotgunner51

TaiShang said:


> Take a look at the map of Eurasia.
> 
> View attachment 358147
> 
> 
> Turkey appears to be, by dialectical super forces, placed at a critical geographic location in providing a bridge between East Asia and Europe, especially the Mediterranean Europe.
> 
> Thus, it should be advantageous in the New Silk Road expansion. However, so far, China has established strong land connections with Europe via the Northern Eurasian Corridor, having direct access to Western Europe through Central Asia, Russia, and Eastern Europe.
> 
> Now China has over 40 rail lines toward Western Europe, consolidated into three major rail linkages.
> 
> The maritime linkage to Europe, however, is still the big question.
> 
> Turkey has little relevance in land connection but, in theory, it should have big advantage as far as the maritime connection to Western Europe is concerned.
> 
> But it happens not to be the case and, as I argue, it won't be the case for various geopolitical and historical reasons.
> 
> So what is the alternative New Silk Road route that by-passes Turkey?
> 
> Now, look again at the map above and find Georgia.
> 
> China has been building a deep sea port in Anaklia, west of Georgia, which is said to be twice as big in capacity than Turkish ports, and will include FTZs and other amenities.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...a-port-set-to-transform-georgia/#6b7f06a03f47
> 
> View attachment 358148
> 
> 
> When complete, cargoes will be delivered by rail to the port and, from there, will be loaded onto vessels to be delivered to European destinations via the Black Sea.
> 
> How to by pass Turkey? By establishing a ferry and ro-ro ships between Anaklia in Georgia and Constanta in Romania. This is the northern by-pass route.
> 
> Another by-pass route is via Cyprus. China (COSCO) plans to operate a port there.
> 
> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2016-01/29/content_23301148.htm
> 
> _"Foreign Minister Wang Yi said during a visit to Nicosia last month that China is interested in operating Cypriot ports and wants to help turn the eastern Mediterranean island nation into a regional shipping hub."
> _
> I think what remains to Turkey is to urgently reconfigure its foreign policy priorities and make itself a peninsula of stability in the region, from which the region becomes stabilized. This is hard work and what has been destroyed in the region over the past five years cannot be rebuilt in less than 10 years.
> 
> But, the ultimate result may worth the effort.




Please allow me for different opinion. I think the design is a result of optimization of a number of factors, from financial to logistics, but no political motive, no intention to by-pass any specific nation. There is no enemy state in the region.

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## TaiShang

Zulkarneyn said:


> Could it be that China has opted for a major port in Georgia due to it geographical location (Black Sea), it's closer to China and it makes no sense to build a port to the Black Sea in Turkey as these exist already. Furthermore, it's infeasible and almost impossible for a foreign nation to build ports in Turkey - (in a hypothetical case China built a port in Turkey, Turkish authorites wouldn't allow any Chinese interference in its operation), as Turkey is already capable and has been building ports for centuries on our own terms.



Hasn't Turkey leased ports to major groups from the Gulf, for example, Dubai, and has been operating those ports for many years?

http://www.dpworld.com.tr/

Nonetheless, the inability to build a port in Turkey may be one of the reasons. This still does not explain the preference to carry the goods to Romania on the other side of the Black Sea and then into Europe.



Zulkarneyn said:


> In other words China opts for the long term game, to be exact this is a win/win (positive sum game) situation for both countries in many respects, but it happens so due to Georgia's poor situation, the exact same way with African nations and China.



Georgia benefits from it as much as, say, Greece or Cyprus benefits from China's port development. China built and now operates one of Europe's ten largest ports in Greece.

Georgia, being poor and developing is playing the long game in the right way and it may eventually be a major hub for China's goods and services directed at Europe.



Zulkarneyn said:


> In other words none bypasses Turkey, China makes the most of utilizing its potential in an underdeveloped poor country that desires foreign investments in any form and shape (in this case giving much freedom to Chinese construction firms, followed by possible Chinese oil/gas giant companies inside their borders). The exact same way China operates in poor countries in Africa that desires investment even at the expense of selling land and rights at a minimum or no price at all.



China being a major developing country is a fact repeated daily by the government at every level. Hence, China's interaction with the rest of the world, including Africa, is qualitatively different from that of other countries, including Turkey.

For Silk Road investment in Africa, here is a brief list of major projects in Africa (completed and ongoing).

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## Zulkarneyn

TaiShang said:


> Hasn't Turkey leased ports to major groups from the Gulf, for example, Dubai, and has been operating those ports for many years?
> 
> http://www.dpworld.com.tr/
> 
> Nonetheless, the inability to build a port in Turkey may be one of the reasons. This still does not explain the preference to carry the goods to Romania on the other side of the Black Sea and then into Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> Georgia benefits from it as much as, say, Greece or Cyprus benefits from China's port development. China built and now operates one of Europe's ten largest ports in Greece.
> 
> Georgia, being poor and developing is playing the long game in the right way and it may eventually be a major hub for China's goods and services directed at Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> China being a major developing country is a fact repeated daily by the government at every level. Hence, China's interaction with the rest of the world, including Africa, is qualitatively different from that of other countries, including Turkey.
> 
> For Silk Road investment in Africa, here is a brief list of major projects in Africa (completed and ongoing).
> 
> View attachment 358163


Now we are on same term


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## TaiShang

*Romania welcomes Belt and Road Initiative: officials*

Source: Xinhua | 2016-03-30 







Photo taken on Oct. 17, 2015 shows the aerial view of the port in Beihai city, southwest China's Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region. Beihai city, starting point of China's ancient marine silk road towards outside world, plays an important role in China's foreign trade over 2,000 years ago. To revitalize economic prosperity, Beihai is playing catch-up by joining the movement behind the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road to make its port an export channel for west China and a star of the modern version of the maritime Silk Road. (Xinhua/Huang Xiaobang)

by Marcela Ganea

BUCHAREST, March 30 (Xinhua) -- Romania welcomes the the Belt and Road Initiative as a continuation of the Silk Road idea in the 21st century, Florin Marius Tacu, secretary of state with the Chancellery of the Romanian prime minister, told a workshop in Bucharest on Tuesday.

Tacu, former Romanian consul general in Shanghai, said that Romanian President Klaus Iohannis stressed the wish to facilitate the economic exchanges between Europe and China, when meeting with diplomatic corps in Bucharest in January 2015.

The official said that Romania is "interested in all fields: nuclear energy, infrastructure ... We are making efforts to streamline the procedures for Romanian products to enter the Chinese market."

Daniel Tanase, from the Department of Globalization of the Romanian Foreign Ministry, said that China's initiative to bring a new Silk Road to connect Europe and Asia is a good input to stimulate the 16+1 cooperation.

"Romania is interested in finding common points between the 16+1 cooperation, the EU programs for infrastructure and investments, and the new Silk Road proposed by China," he said.

According to Dinu Dinulescu, general secretary of the Association for the Economic and Social Study and Forecast (ASPES), China and the EU have a daily exchange of goods of 1 billion euros (1.11 billion U.S. dollars).

Dinulescu told the workshop that the exchanges between Romania and China are 1 billion euros in six months, so there is a lot of room for development.

"Romania used to be a major partner for China and under the 16+1 framework, we can become again a good market for China. We can become an energy hub, we have potential in energy facilities, both conventional and renewable," he stressed.

In addition, Liviu Muresan, president of the EURISC foundation, stressed, "Global economy needs China."

The Romanian think tank wants to promote pragmatic economic and development projects and stimulate the cooperation between China and the Central and Eastern Europe countries along the Belt and Road Initiative as well as the 16+1 mechanism, by involving think tanks from the 16+1 countries.

Xu Feihong, Chinese ambassador to Romania, also said,"China put forward the Belt and Road Initiative by analyzing the challenges in today's world and China's new tasks, to enhance cooperation and promote common development."

The ambassador emphasized that in 2015, Chinese companies invested 40.8 billion U.S. dollars in the countries along the Belt and Road. The Chinese economy will take off together with the economies of the Belt and Road countries which will bring prosperity to Asia and Europe.

Regarding the Romanian-Chinese cooperation, Xu told the participants of the workshop that he is very happy with the cooperation in the energy field. However, "the level of our mutual cooperation is still below our aspiration."

"We'll have to find methods to put forward projects of mutual cooperation between China and Romania," he said.

The workshop, under the theme of "Romania-China cooperation: Romania's contribution to 16+1 and Belt & Road Initiative," was organized by the EURISC foundation, together with two other local think tanks: Middle East Political and Economic Institute and ASPES.

**

@Shotgunner51 , could you please merge this thread with the larger OBOR thread? I could not locate the dedicated OBOR thread.

Regards.

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## Shotgunner51

TaiShang said:


> @Shotgunner51 , could you please merge this thread with the larger OBOR thread? I could not locate the dedicated OBOR thread.



Done, please carry on here.

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## xenon54 out

Zulkarneyn said:


> @Sinan @xenon54 @usernameless @T-123456 @bsruzm @KediKesenFare
> beyler your opinion is valued


The future might bring new opportunities now that Kars-Tbilisi-Baku line is finished which is soon ready to operate, it all depends on diplomacy now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku–Tbilisi–Kars_railway

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## ahojunk

This thread is about "One Belt One Road" or "Belt and Road Initiative".

A friendly reminder to all to keep on topic.

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## TaiShang

Belt and Road extending more iron network into Eurasia via Russia and Central Asia. Yet another link created between China and one of the most strategic spokes on the New Silk Road framework.

I think the rail links are still hindered with incompatible gauge systems. Once/if unified, it will further boost the speed of delivery and hence reduce cost.

***
*
Xi'an-Moscow freight train service launched*
Xinhua, December 7, 2016



​The first freight train service linking Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, with Moscow, capital of Russia, is ready for departing in Xi'an, Dec. 6, 2016. The train of 41 containers mainly carrying consumer durables will pass through Kazakhstan before reaching Moscow, and the trip will take 11 days, compared to the traditional land/sea route, which takes over 45 days. (Xinhua/Tang Zhenjiang)

A freight train service linking Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province with Moscow, capital of Russia, began operations on Tuesday.

*The train of 41 containers mainly carrying consumer durables, left Xi'an at 10:50 a.m. and will pass through Kazakhstan before reaching Moscow, sources with the Xi'an International Trade and Logistics Park said.*

The trip will take 11 days, compared to the traditional land/sea route, which takes over 45 days.* It is the third China-Europe freight train from Xi'an following those to Warsaw and Hamburg.*

Xi'an, known in ancient times as Chang'an, was a terminus of the Silk Road -- an ancient land trade route that ran through northwest China's Shaanxi, Gansu and Xinjiang, and Central and Western Asia, before reaching the Mediterranean.



​The first freight train service linking Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, with Moscow, capital of Russia, is ready for departing in Xi'an, Dec. 6, 2016. The train of 41 containers mainly carrying consumer durables will pass through Kazakhstan before reaching Moscow, and the trip will take 11 days, compared to the traditional land/sea route, which takes over 45 days. (Xinhua/Tang Zhenjiang)



​The first freight train service linking Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, with Moscow, capital of Russia, is ready for departing at the launching ceremony held in Xi'an, Dec. 6, 2016. The train of 41 containers mainly carrying consumer durables will pass through Kazakhstan before reaching Moscow, and the trip will take 11 days, compared to the traditional land/sea route, which takes over 45 days. (Xinhua/Tang Zhenjiang)

@vostok

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## TaiShang

*China to build international road transport system by 2020*
Xinhua, December 6, 2016

China will build an open, modern and efficient international road system by 2020 to facilitate international transport and strengthen connectivity among countries along the Belt and Road.

*China will advance transport infrastructure construction along the Belt and Road, improve customs clearance efficiency and strengthen emergency rescue capabilities to facilitate international transport, according to a circular jointly released by eight central departments.*

The move is aimed to develop economic corridors with countries along the Belt and Road, reduce cross-border transport costs and improve transport services and efficiency, said Wang Shuiping, a senior official of the Ministry of Transport, during a press conference Tuesday.

Proposed by China in 2013, the Belt and Road is an infrastructure and trade network aiming to connect Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes.

Regions along the Belt and Road account for 63 percent of the global population and 29 percent of the global economy, statistics show.

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## TaiShang

The Yuxinou (Chongqing) freight rail plan. Start in Xinjiang province of China, crossing Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, and finally reaching Duisburg in Germany.

Interesting how China opts for the northern route to link up with Europe overland. Eurasia is big and there are many options to set up links with Europe. The big winners currently are Central Asia, Russia and Eastern Europe.

As time passes by a and the lines get mature, there will less and less opportunity for the left-out countries to position themselves in one of the spokes that China casts across Eurasia. 







More interesting is the booming (literally, booming) freight train service. New steel and fire Eurasia created by China is up and running.

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## JSCh

* China to build modern international road transport system by 2020*
Source: Xinhua 2016-12-06 18:17:41

BEIJING, Dec. 6 (Xinhua) -- China will build an open, modern and efficient international road system by 2020 to facilitate international transport and strengthen connectivity among countries along the Belt and Road.

China will advance transport infrastructure construction along the Belt and Road, improve customs clearance efficiency and strengthen emergency rescue capabilities to facilitate international transport, according to a circular jointly released by eight central departments.

The move is aimed to develop economic corridors with countries along the Belt and Road, reduce cross-border transport costs and improve transport services and efficiency, said Wang Shuiping, a senior official of the Ministry of Transport, during a press conference Tuesday.

Proposed by China in 2013, the Belt and Road is an infrastructure and trade network aiming to connect Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes.

Regions along the Belt and Road account for 63 percent of the global population and 29 percent of the global economy, statistics show.

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## TaiShang

_There comes the soft power aspect (extension) of hard power

***_

*China to establish Confucius Institutes in all countries along Belt and Road route*
(People's Daily Online) December 12, 2016

_



_

_[File photo]_

China has plans to establish Confucius Institutes* in all the countries along the Belt and Road route,* in an effort to promote Chinese language and culture. This will benefit both China and the Belt and Road nations, according to Hao Ping, vice minister of the Ministry of Education.

At a conference held in Kunming, Yunnan province on Nov. 11, Hao stated that* 51 countries along the Belt and Road route have already established 134 Confucius Institutes and 127 Confucius Classrooms, while 460,000 students have registered to study Chinese and Chinese culture in 2016.*

In 2017, China plans to establish Confucius Institutes in another nine countries, achieving the goal of covering all Belt and Road countries, Hao added.

“Confucius Institutes should play a more important role in the construction of the Belt and Road. China should attach importance to the training of professional teachers, as well as to targeted course content,” Zhu Chongshi, headmaster of Xiamen University, said during the conference.

Confucius Institutes are named after the ancient Chinese philosopher Confucius. They serve as non-profit public institutions aimed to help foreigners understand China by studying the language and culture at universities overseas. The first such institute was established in 2004.

A total of 2.1 million people are currently studying Chinese language and culture in 511 Confucius Institutes and 1,073 Confucius Classrooms across 140 countries and regions, the Xinhua News Agency reported.

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## TaiShang

*China expects progress in China-Thailand railway 
China.org.cn*
China pledged on Monday to work with Thailand on the joint railway project for the benefit of both countries and peoples.



Chinese Premier Li Keqiang (R) meets with Thailand's First Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Prawit Wongsuwan in Beijing, capital of China, Dec. 12, 2016. [Photo/Xinhua]



Premier Li Keqiang made the remarks when met with First Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Prawit Wongsuwan of Thailand.

Thai Deputy Prime Minister Somkid Jatusripitak, who was here to attend the 5th China-Thailand Joint Committee on Trade, Investment and Economic Cooperation Meeting held on Friday in Beijing, was also present at the meeting on Monday.

Li said he and Thai Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha reached consensus on the railway earlier this year.

The memorandum signed on Friday made clear arrangements for the next step on the basis of the current cooperation framework, said Li.

Prawit told Li he is visiting to inform China about recent developments on behalf of Prayuth.

He said Thailand is ready to work with China on major connectivity projects including the railway and strengthen cooperation on tourism, internet, agriculture and law enforcement.

Thailand and China signed documents on the development of Thailand's transportation infrastructure in 2014.

On the regional cooperation, Li said it is the consensus of all sides to enhance the economic integration of the East Asia, especially to agree upon the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) at an early date.

It is in line with all parties' interests, conducive to showing the willingness of countries in the region to promote trade and investment liberalization and facilitation, he said.

China supports the Association of the South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) in playing a core role in the regional cooperation and would like to enhance communication and contacts with parties including Thailand on the negotiation of RCEP under the framework of China-ASEAN ties and East Asia cooperation, Li said.

Prawit said the RCEP is an important proposal that will benefit Asia.

As an ASEAN member, Thailand will play an active role in the RCEP negotiation process.

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## Shotgunner51

*Inside China’s Global Spending Spree*
*By Scott Cendrowski*
Photograph by Teru Onishi for Fortune 
December 12, 2016, 6:30 AM EST 


The high-rise coastal city of Dubai plays host to all kinds of luxury oddities: indoor ski slopes, gold-bar vending machines, vast artificial archipelagoes shaped like palm trees. But six miles inland, something just as unusual, if far less gaudy, is taking shape—the first coal-fired power plant in the Middle East.

The United Arab Emirates, to which Dubai belongs, need to diversify their energy mix. By 2030, Dubai hopes to balance natural gas and solar and get 7% of its energy from coal. Its first step: a massive “clean coal” project. Workers broke ground in early November for a plant expected to be finished in 2023.

In this petroleum-dominated region, there isn’t much coal-power expertise. But that won’t be a problem for Dubai, thanks to help from unusual sources. *The nearly $2 billion project is backed by $1.4 billion in funding from the Chinese government and banks and is being built by Chinese construction crews*.

Why such largesse for an emirate swimming in oil wealth? Because Dubai is one of the nations China is targeting as part of One Belt, One Road, an ambitious *foreign-investment project designed to boost China’s trade and diplomatic ties with more than 60 countries in the Middle East, Europe, and Africa*. China is opening up its checkbook for this group of potential allies: It’s committing $1 trillion through the program in the next decade—and as much as $3 trillion over the long term—to huge infrastructure investments, in locations that stretch from China’s coast through the deserts of Xinjiang province and the steppes of Central Asia as far west as Spain and Scandinavia.






Already, nearly *$900 billion worth of projects are underway or planned*, according to the China Development Bank, and the first ones are almost finished. A $2.1 billion thermal-power plant in Karachi should be completed by the end of next year, just 40 months after construction started.

One Belt, One Road represents China’s biggest overseas spending effort ever, a project that, adjusted for inflation, is at least 12 times the size of the Marshall Plan, the history-changing U.S. program that helped rebuild Western Europe from rubble after World War II. The effort is already seeding power plants, railroads, and pipelines in emerging-market countries starving for such backbone investments.

Just as with the Marshall Plan, there’s far more than altruism in play. China’s huge *state-owned infrastructure companies*, hampered by their own country’s gradual slowdown, need projects that will keep their foundries blazing and their workers paid while the nation makes the transition to a less industrial, more consumer-driven economy. And Belt and Road (as China’s government has rebranded it) helps China earn diplomatic goodwill at a time when the U.S. and Europe appear less willing to invest in economy-building abroad.

*The New Silk Road*

Belt and Road has a historical precedent: the ancient Silk Road that for hundreds of years connected Chinese traders with those in the Middle East and Europe via the Eurasian steppes, Palestine, and Turkey. In an era of wagon caravans and sailing ships, those trading ties did little to extend a then-insular China’s geopolitical clout. But Belt and Road is intended to forge far more binding ties today.

The program, which was formally announced in 2013, is the brainchild of Chinese President Xi Jinping. Xi has already amassed power in military and economic affairs faster than any other modern Chinese leader, says Willy Lam, an expert on Chinese politics and a professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Expanding China’s influence abroad is Xi’s next priority, and Belt and Road is designed to do just that. “It projects Chinese hard and soft power to places as far as East Africa,” says Lam, “and it bonds China with countries … that may otherwise continue to remain dependent on the U.S.”

Joe Ngai, managing partner of McKinsey’s Hong Kong practice, says the need for infrastructure in emerging markets in central and southern Asia and into Africa amounts to $2 trillion to $3 trillion a year. The Belt is the land-based component of Xi’s strategy to meet that demand. It’s a network of railroads, oil pipelines, and other projects that runs northwest from China through Kazakhstan and Russia. The Belt hits multiple Asian countries before turning west through Belarus and Poland into Europe—where it’s bringing investment to countries where post-financial-crisis austerity has crimped infrastructure spending.

The Road (somewhat confusingly) is a maritime route of investments to improve ports along shipping lanes, extending from southern China to Indonesia and west to Africa, the Middle East, and southern Europe. Many of those areas have already attracted intensive Chinese investment in the past decade, and some experts say that “Belt and Road” is merely a slick label added to existing Chinese policy. But the money promised to the new project is anything but superficial.

The famed Silk Road trading routes once connected China with medieval Europe. Today, the One Belt, One Road initiative is strengthening China’s ties to countries along the same routes—and the economic and geopolitical stakes are far higher. According to the Mercator Institute, the 65 countries that could eventually be connected by Belt and Road account for around 30% of the global economy. About $900 billion worth of projects are now either underway or in detailed planning stages, according to the China Development Bank; this map highlights some of the signature projects.





(High-resolution map, click to enlarge)​
*The Decision Makers*

Chinese spending abroad for Belt and Road is expected to reach $100 billion annually over the next decade, and China has earmarked as much as *$3 trillion* for it. The money comes from Chinese-backed development banks, China’s state-owned enterprises, and even local Chinese governments. The funding process is convoluted, but one leading player is the recently formed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), China’s answer to the World Bank; AIIB is starting with $100 billion to lend. China will be responsible for one-third to one-half of the bank’s financing, but its members include almost 60 other countries.

AIIB’s board is searching for worthwhile endeavors—and so is China’s domestic bureaucracy. “Provinces and cities have been assigned Belt-and-Road quotas [by the central government], and are busy sending delegations abroad to find projects,” Arthur Kroeber of the Hong Kong-based research firm Gavekal Dragonomics wrote recently.

It is essentially up to Xi’s administration to choose the projects. China’s central government decides the countries it wants to work with, and those countries nominate projects for funding. China’s selections reflect both commercial and political interests, analysts say. If the host country is important for political reasons, China may be willing to take losses on construction; if not, China is more likely to invest in collaborations that could eventually offer a positive return. Belt and Road’s political elements were evident in late October when brash Philippine President *Rodrigo Duterte*, who has disparaged both President Obama and Pope Francis in his bid to push the Philippines away from old alliances, visited China to get in Xi’s good graces. Duterte’s delegation came away with $24 billion worth of funding and pledges for ports, mines, and railways.

*The Money Trail*

Some Belt and Road projects are already underway.

A $23 billion high-speed rail line could someday stretch from China through Thailand to Singapore.

In southern Pakistan along the Arabian Sea, two large coal-fired power plants are going up.

A gas pipeline running from Russia to China through Siberia is under construction, with a price tag of more than $55 billion.

In Europe there’s a massive Czech Republic canal project linking river basins from Poland to Slovakia and Austria that China and the Czechs are each funding with $1 billion investments.
Of the $100 billion a year spent on Belt and Road, about *50% will be used for raw materials like concrete and steel*, according to Strategy&, the consulting arm of PwC. For China that’s essentially domestic stimulus: Top Chinese officials have noted that Belt and Road projects can soak up excess steel and iron from Chinese companies hurt by the waning of their nation’s building frenzy.

Another 30% to 40% of total spending will go toward construction, engineering, and high-tech equipment. Those phases will be led by Chinese engineering construction contractors (EPCs), which have a lock on winning the lead business from China’s lenders. China’s goal is eventually to attract private investors in projects that are economically viable. Qatar’s sovereign wealth fund, for instance, took a 49% stake in a Pakistan power plant project, while the Chinese builder Power Construction took the other 51%.

Read the full story at http://fortune.com/china-belt-road-investment/

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## TaiShang

Shotgunner51 said:


> Another 30% to 40% of total spending will go toward construction, engineering, and high-tech equipment.



It is important that the equipment is provided/sourced by China's own machinery makers. This way, China will have its own Cat, Hyundai, and Hitachi.



Shotgunner51 said:


> The Belt is the land-based component of Xi’s strategy to meet that demand. It’s a network of railroads, oil pipelines, and other projects that runs northwest from China through Kazakhstan and Russia. The Belt hits multiple Asian countries before turning west through Belarus and Poland into Europe—where it’s bringing investment to countries where post-financial-crisis austerity has crimped infrastructure spending.



That's a very realistic description of the Belt as it is today.



Shotgunner51 said:


> A gas pipeline running from Russia to China through Siberia is under construction, with a price tag of more than $55 billion.



This will become online in 2018. The 400billion USD deal is for a 30 year supply, which will make Russia China's largest natural gas provider -- after crude oil.

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## Shotgunner51

TaiShang said:


> It is important that the equipment is provided/sourced by China's own machinery makers. This way, China will have its own Cat, Hyundai, and Hitachi.
> 
> That's a very realistic description of the Belt as it is today.
> 
> This will become online in 2018. The 400billion USD deal is for a 30 year supply, which will make Russia China's largest natural gas provider -- after crude oil.




Yes! Also take note of the map, one of the most comprehensive about OBOR I've seen, covering as far as *Walvis Bay*. It's quite high res 2349 x 1419, you may click to enlarge.






Pipelines, rail, seaports, power/data grids are major OBOR connectivity projects, expect to see lots of greenfield investment in Eurasian landmass, Africa and ASEAN.


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## 艹艹艹

https://timesofislamabad.com/russia...rridor-project-russian-ambassador/2016/12/17/
*Russia supports China-Pakistan Economic Corridor project: Russian Ambassador*
Posted By:News Deskonecember 17, 2016





ISLAMABAD (APP): Russian Ambassador to Pakistan Alexey Y. Dedov has said that Russia has strongly support China- Pakistan Economic Corridor project as it is crucial for Pakistan’s economy and regional connectivity.

Pakistan Russia getting closer on all important issues: Russian Ambassador

In an exclusive interview with Radio Pakistan, he pointed out that CPEC is component of China’s Silk Road and his country was also working on a similar Eurasian Economic Union and China and Russia are holding discussions to merge the two projects.

Asked about North-South gas pipeline project of Pakistan Government, the Russian Ambassador said they are eager to realize the project at the soonest.

The Ambassador said the two countries are closely cooperating in different areas but there is need to enhance the volume of bilateral trade.

About MI-35 gunship helicopter deal between the two countries, he said the contract has already been signed and it is now for the officials concerned to define a timeframe for the purpose.

Pakistan-Russia-China to meet in Moscow over Afghanistan

Replying to a question, the Russian Ambassador said his country wants Pakistan and India to resolve all issues including Jammu and Kashmir through peaceful means.

He said Pakistan and Russia are also closely cooperating in efforts for restoration of peace in Afghanistan.

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## ahojunk

*Time for Europe to better position Belt & Road*
By Chen Chenchen | Source:Global Times | Published: 2016/12/18 19:08:39





Illustration: Peter C. Espina/GT


"The Belt and Road Initiative (B&R initiative) is not discussed on TV here," a Zurich-based economist from a top local university said to me during a recent conversation we had in his office. "Not many people here are informed about the initiative. I read a couple of articles in newspaper, but I'm not so familiar."

It was one typical answer I heard during a recent trip to Switzerland. My colleague and I paid visits to several top Swiss think tanks, and we also had discussions with finance professionals from Zurich. It didn't take long before we came to the intuitive fact that many elite Europeans from academia and business lack basic understanding of the B&R initiative.

This quick observation is in accordance with research findings back in China on European attitudes toward it. According to the Center for European Union Studies at Shanghai International Studies University, while the EU's top decision-makers have made increasingly clear and positive responses to the B&R initiative, studies and analyses from European think tanks and business interest groups are still weak.

One immediate explanation is that since the initiative is in the early stages of implementation, many Europeans haven't yet seen a direct link to specific projects. I did a mini survey before giving a presentation to a group in Zurich, mainly consisting of senior professionals from local financial giants. Among the three dozen people in the room, only five or six raised their hands to indicate they'd heard of it before they walked in. One investment banker told me later that it was primarily because the initiative wasn't yet something they could directly invest in.

Nonetheless, a more profound reason is probably rooted in the way Europeans deal with the external world. The B&R initiative has been perceived with a mixture of skepticism and interest, partly due to problems in mutual strategic distrust between Europe and China. One of the widely held European views is that projects linked to the B&R initiative would mean exploitation of resources in areas between China and Europe, and that the Chinese would leave a "quasi-colonial legacy" behind. 

A global vision of inter-connectivity, based on pluralism and equal collaboration, is instinctively ruled out by many elite Europeans. Traditional theories of geopolitical rivalry, which date back to the age of imperialism, somehow permeate in the European perception of the initiative. Some see the initiative as a Chinese way of geo-economic expansion aimed at reshaping Eurasian political, economic and security order. This old-fashioned mentality may mean passivity in dealing with Chinese investments. 

*Europe does have interest in it, but it is simply impossible to reap quick benefits from it without spending time to properly position it, and to find concrete ways to bridge it with Europe's own development frameworks, including the European Fund for Strategic Investment and Trans-European Transport Networks*. In this sense, European business people engaging in trade and foreign investment as well as think tanks focusing on foreign policy studies and consulting could do more. 

Both China and the EU have raised ambitious cooperation goals in various fields, including energy, urbanization, intellectual property rights protection, as well as aviation and aerospace. EU-China ties could advance by leaps and bounds if cooperation plans are brought to implementation.

From the Chinese perspective, two gaps are prominent at the moment. One is between Chinese and European positioning of the B&R initiative. It has literally become China's No.1 project for both domestic development and external interaction, and some top Chinese scholars envisage the concept initiating the nation's third round of reform and opening-up. This is in sharp contrast with skepticism among some Europeans toward the so-called period of validity of the initiative.

The other gap is evident when one roughly compares studies on the initiative by think tanks in Europe and the US. In Washington, systematic studies, including tracking of specific projects in terms of their profitability, have been under way. In Europe, there are certainly solid studies, but generally speaking, detailed and systematic perceptions of the initiative are inadequate.

In the Chinese leadership's top-level design, "market-oriented" is listed as one of its principles. This means that mobilizing the private sector and social vigor is indispensable following government-to-government coordination. Local and industrial participation is key to building up inter-connectivity between the two ends of the vast Eurasian landmass.

In order to bring this into reality, Europeans need to first understand the B&R initiative in a more detailed way, rather than being led by a stereotyped view on Chinese intentions. In this process, European think tanks and business interest groups have important roles to play.

_The author is a research fellow with Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at the Renmin University of China.__chenchenchen@ruc.edu.cn_


********

_China needs to do more PR work regarding B&R in Europe._
.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> *Time for Europe to better position Belt & Road*
> By Chen Chenchen | Source:Global Times | Published: 2016/12/18 19:08:39
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Illustration: Peter C. Espina/GT
> 
> 
> "The Belt and Road Initiative (B&R initiative) is not discussed on TV here," a Zurich-based economist from a top local university said to me during a recent conversation we had in his office. "Not many people here are informed about the initiative. I read a couple of articles in newspaper, but I'm not so familiar."
> 
> It was one typical answer I heard during a recent trip to Switzerland. My colleague and I paid visits to several top Swiss think tanks, and we also had discussions with finance professionals from Zurich. It didn't take long before we came to the intuitive fact that many elite Europeans from academia and business lack basic understanding of the B&R initiative.
> 
> This quick observation is in accordance with research findings back in China on European attitudes toward it. According to the Center for European Union Studies at Shanghai International Studies University, while the EU's top decision-makers have made increasingly clear and positive responses to the B&R initiative, studies and analyses from European think tanks and business interest groups are still weak.
> 
> One immediate explanation is that since the initiative is in the early stages of implementation, many Europeans haven't yet seen a direct link to specific projects. I did a mini survey before giving a presentation to a group in Zurich, mainly consisting of senior professionals from local financial giants. Among the three dozen people in the room, only five or six raised their hands to indicate they'd heard of it before they walked in. One investment banker told me later that it was primarily because the initiative wasn't yet something they could directly invest in.
> 
> Nonetheless, a more profound reason is probably rooted in the way Europeans deal with the external world. The B&R initiative has been perceived with a mixture of skepticism and interest, partly due to problems in mutual strategic distrust between Europe and China. One of the widely held European views is that projects linked to the B&R initiative would mean exploitation of resources in areas between China and Europe, and that the Chinese would leave a "quasi-colonial legacy" behind.
> 
> A global vision of inter-connectivity, based on pluralism and equal collaboration, is instinctively ruled out by many elite Europeans. Traditional theories of geopolitical rivalry, which date back to the age of imperialism, somehow permeate in the European perception of the initiative. Some see the initiative as a Chinese way of geo-economic expansion aimed at reshaping Eurasian political, economic and security order. This old-fashioned mentality may mean passivity in dealing with Chinese investments.
> 
> *Europe does have interest in it, but it is simply impossible to reap quick benefits from it without spending time to properly position it, and to find concrete ways to bridge it with Europe's own development frameworks, including the European Fund for Strategic Investment and Trans-European Transport Networks*. In this sense, European business people engaging in trade and foreign investment as well as think tanks focusing on foreign policy studies and consulting could do more.
> 
> Both China and the EU have raised ambitious cooperation goals in various fields, including energy, urbanization, intellectual property rights protection, as well as aviation and aerospace. EU-China ties could advance by leaps and bounds if cooperation plans are brought to implementation.
> 
> From the Chinese perspective, two gaps are prominent at the moment. One is between Chinese and European positioning of the B&R initiative. It has literally become China's No.1 project for both domestic development and external interaction, and some top Chinese scholars envisage the concept initiating the nation's third round of reform and opening-up. This is in sharp contrast with skepticism among some Europeans toward the so-called period of validity of the initiative.
> 
> The other gap is evident when one roughly compares studies on the initiative by think tanks in Europe and the US. In Washington, systematic studies, including tracking of specific projects in terms of their profitability, have been under way. In Europe, there are certainly solid studies, but generally speaking, detailed and systematic perceptions of the initiative are inadequate.
> 
> In the Chinese leadership's top-level design, "market-oriented" is listed as one of its principles. This means that mobilizing the private sector and social vigor is indispensable following government-to-government coordination. Local and industrial participation is key to building up inter-connectivity between the two ends of the vast Eurasian landmass.
> 
> In order to bring this into reality, Europeans need to first understand the B&R initiative in a more detailed way, rather than being led by a stereotyped view on Chinese intentions. In this process, European think tanks and business interest groups have important roles to play.
> 
> _The author is a research fellow with Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at the Renmin University of China.__chenchenchen@ruc.edu.cn_
> 
> 
> ********
> 
> _China needs to do more PR work regarding B&R in Europe._
> .




One concern the EU has is that the OBOR may have a fragmenting effect on the community building in Europe. They worry that if China negotiates bilaterally with specific EU members, this will weaken EU's overall unified decision making powers.

Maybe EU must establish an office to particularly deal with the OBOR related issues. Because OBOR won't disappear just because the EU pretends it does not exist.

The charm of the initiative is too big for (especially Eastern European countries) to ignore. They will in one way or another join the development bandwagon.

AIIB-EBRD cooperation, in this sense, is a good step to this end.

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## TaiShang

*Preventing Islamic risk on ‘Belt and Road’*
By Mei Xinyu Source: Global Times Published: 2016/12/15 15:33:39





_Illustration: Liu Rui/GT_

A few years ago, I predicted that for the next 10 to 20 years, economic recession will worsen and cause major social instability in emerging countries. Africa, Latin America and Middle East Islamic countries will be the prime source of this upheaval and turmoil. For nearly three years, the Ukrainian crisis, the emergence of the Islamic State, the Yemen civil war and 2016 Turkish coup attempt have proved my prediction.* In the next 10 to 20 years, "Islamic risk" will be one of the world's biggest political risks.*

*For China's "One Belt, One Road" (OBOR) initiative, Islamic risk is also a prominent political danger.* *According to the broadest definition, OBOR involves 64 countries, 33 of which are Muslim countries, accounting for more than half the total. *

Among the remaining 31 non-Muslim countries, 10 countries have obvious existing Muslim unrest and are at risk of terror attacks. In total, 44 countries have Islamic risk, making up 69 percent of the total number of countries along OBOR.

For example, Pakistan, China's iron-core brother, is a country with serious Islamic extremism.* From 2012 to 2013, violent terrorist incidents in Pakistan caused 11,590 deaths, which included 6,008 civilians, 1,408 policemen and 4,174 militants.*

As a country pursuing a policy of non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries, China has no obligations to get them out of the social upheavals. What China can do is to create a favorable environment for their peaceful development through equal trade after they walk out of turbulence. When promoting OBOR, China should fully consider risk returns, and try to maximize returns while minimizing risk.

In view of Islamic risk, China ought to give priority to pre-arrangements, supplemented by measures afterward. *Chinese enterprises in Muslim countries should put self-help measures first, while making government guarantees and rescue mechanisms subsidiary.* Relying on these tactics means that *active arrangements are vital for reducing Islamic risk during the process of perfecting a transnational operation political risk-response system.* Only in this way can China minimize the cost of political risks in transnational management.

In addition, the Chinese government should modestly promote overseas aid, and expand policy-oriented export credit insurance and overseas investment insurance. However, expecting the aid to eliminate all political risks is unrealistic, which is beyond the affordability of Chinese national strength and may lead to moral hazard for enterprises.

According to the above principles, China can take measures such as organizing Chinese security companies, and carrying out rescues and intervention when necessary. Nevertheless, what China should do most is as follows.

The probability of political risks should be reduced by appropriately arranging OBOR, moderately relaxing restrictions on media reports, discussing Islamic risk, implementing neutral and friendly policies, and taking appropriate international operations strategies.

Especially, a more open media environment and more discussions about corruption problems, social unrest, rampant violence and other negative issues in Islamic countries can prevent Chinese people from entering dangerous places.

Moreover, it is advised to speed up the organization of overseas Chinese chambers of commerce, so as to strengthen overseas merchants' ability to resist political risks. In addition, China should improve bilateral investment-protection mechanisms and upgrade policy-oriented export credit insurance and foreign investment insurance.

_The author is a research fellow at the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Cooperation under the Ministry of Commerce. opinion@globaltimes.com.cn_

***

@AndrewJin , @long_ , @cirr , @Shotgunner51


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## TaiShang

*Belt and Road Initiative helps promote new mode of globalization: experts*
(Xinhua) December 26, 2016


BEIJING, Dec. 26 (Xinhua) -- With the current globalization mode being challenged by rising protectionism, China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative (B&R) provides insight into* building a new mode that better suits world development*, said Chinese experts here on Monday.

Though the progress of globalization may have been set back by surging isolationism and populist sentiments in the West, its general trend will not change, said scholars on international relations at a forum held by Xinhuanet.com, the website of Xinhua News Agency.

At present, it is impossible for any country to live in a closed system any more, said Wang Yiwei, director of the Center for International Studies at China's Renmin University.

The biggest obstacles to the current globalization mode stem from its institutional defects and its unadaptable governance structure, said Yang Xiyu, a researcher from the China Institute of International Studies.

"The world calls for a new mode of globalization," Yang added.

Launched in 2013, the B&R is perceived as an efficient way for promoting a new mode.

Acknowledging the success of the initiative, experts at the forum also pointed out challenges that may lie ahead.

For countries along the route, possible religious or ethnic conflicts, along with other problems in the legal, financial and environmental areas, may hinder the sound development of the initiative, said Guo Xiangang, a researcher from the China Institute of International Studies.

"China should improve risk assessment, reinforce enterprise-led management and encourage the market to play its role," said Guo.

He also suggested China foster experts in relevant fields and train employees to respect local customs.

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## TaiShang

*China-Europe cargo trains support development of Belt and Road initiative*

(Xinhua) 14:50, December 29, 2016






Containers are seen at Yiwu West Railway Station in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Dec. 28, 2016. The China-Europe container trains have become a major transportation channel of the international logistics industry, and also powerful support for the development of the Belt and Road initiative. (Xinhua/Huang Zongzhi)





Workers unload goods from a China-Europe container train at Yiwu West Railway Station in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Dec. 28, 2016. The China-Europe container trains have become a major transportation channel of the international logistics industry, and also powerful support for the development of the Belt and Road initiative. (Xinhua/Huang Zongzhi)





Customers select Spanish goods imported by China-Europe container trains at Yiwu International Trade Mart in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Dec. 28, 2016. The China-Europe container trains have become a major transportation channel of the international logistics industry, and also powerful support for the development of the Belt and Road initiative. (Xinhua/Huang Zongzhi)





Trucks carrying Chinese goods unload containers at Yiwu West Railway Station in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Dec. 28, 2016. The China-Europe container trains have become a major transportation channel of the international logistics industry, and also powerful support for the development of the Belt and Road initiative. (Xinhua/Huang Zongzhi)






Trucks carrying Chinese goods unload containers at Yiwu West Railway Station in Yiwu, east China's Zhejiang Province, Dec. 28, 2016. The China-Europe container trains have become a major transportation channel of the international logistics industry, and also powerful support for the development of the Belt and Road initiative. (Xinhua/Huang Zongzhi)

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## 艹艹艹



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## Maxpane



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## TaiShang

*Silk Road International Bank set in Djibouti *

2016-12-29 08:57 | CE.cn

_By Gu Yang_

With the acceleration of Chinese enterprises' "Going out", the financial industry is becoming the powerful support to boost Belt and Road construction. Recently, under the guidance of the Belt and Road construction frame, *the first commercial bank set abroad by our country- Silk Road International Bank was announced to be set up in Djibouti on the west bank of Gulf of Aden* and this was the first time for China-invested enterprises to obtain the banking license on the African continent.

*Why Djibouti*

Djibouti is a strange country for most people, but in the eyes of Luo Feng, the Vice Chairman of Silk Road International Bank Board of Directors and the President of IZP Group, this magical land in the east Africa is a hot land that is full of hope-it is at the vital communication hub of Europe, Asia and Africa and is located at the throat where the Red Sea flowing into the Indian Ocean. It is not only the strategic area connecting the Asia, Europe and Africa markets, but also the key point for Belt and Road Initiative to construct the sea passage in the western front.

Presently, the financial infrastructure of Djibouti is relatively weak and there is not a set of complete national payment systems. The financial service deployment completely depends on the SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication) System under the cash and USD system and the banking business is basically at the phase of manual operation.

However, the local good financial investment environment makes Luo Feng a little excited: the political situation and the exchange rate are stable; there is a certain trade volume without foreign exchange control; it allows the free movement of capital and fully opens to the foreign capital; What's more, the development goal "Be the Financial Center of the East Africa and the Dubai of the Horn of Africa" put forward by Djibouti is highly consistent with the business orientation of the Big Data Technology and Cross-border Trade Finance Company of IZP Group.

*The Silk Road International Bank was jointly initiated and set up by China-invested enterprises such as the IZP Group, China Merchants Group and Silk Road E-merchants Information Technology Co., Ltd. with the Ministry of Finance of Djibouti.* It is the 13th local commercial bank set up at the approval of the Djibouti Central Bank. Among which, IZP Group is the major initiator and occupies 25 percent of the shares, so does the Ministry of Finance of Djibouti.

More businesses in Silk Road International Bank

"The short-term goal of the Silk Road International Bank is to develop into the biggest international bank and transactional bank of Djibouti within 5 years as well as to become the biggest card issuer in the East Africa," said Illias Moosa Guardavalle, the Chairman of Silk Road International Bank Board of Directors and the Finance Minister of the Ministry of Finance of Djibouti.

He said, China was one of the major investment countries of Djibouti and the trade contacts between them were frequent. The establishment of the Silk Road International Bank will help Djibouti improve the financial infrastructures, improve the clearing and settlement facilitation of both parties and effectively promote the local social economic development. Meanwhile, the advanced information technology, mature business model and mature market means brought by the Silk Road Bank will help Djibouti transfer the geographic advantages into the momentum of economic development and promote the realization of "Be the Financial Center of the East Africa".

"The Silk Road International Bank will adopt the advanced information technology and financial management experience to create the first high-tech bank of Djibouti with the modern information system. It will provide a package of financial solutions for China-Africa bilateral trade and the investment of China in Africa, provide safe and convenient payment and settlement service for numerous Chinese enterprises in Africa and escort the trades of Chinese enterprises in Africa," said Luo Feng. Djibouti will form the liquidation ring of the African region by taking the Silk Road International Bank as the carrier to provide the international clearing and settlement service for the global trade and consumption as well as to lay the foundation for establishing an international financial center.

"Belt and Road Initiative enables the China's high quality productions 'Going-out' and objectively, China-invested enterprises need the settlement center like Silk Road International Bank as well as convenient and efficient cross-border financial services," said Chen Chunying, one shareholder of the Silk Road International Bank and the Vice-President of Silk Road E-merchants Information Technology Co., Ltd. The Silk Road International Bank is an important link of the "Silk Road Station" in Belt and Road construction. Silk Road E-merchants need such a link, so do Chinese enterprises.

Who will be the next "Silk Road Bank"

Under the framework of WTO, any two countries can realize the point-to-point trade pattern. However, the pattern of monetary settlement is a single-polarization and the flattening of the trade and the single-polarization of the settlement not only limit the global growth, but also bring fatal effects to the geo-economics. One of the performances is the constant depreciation of the domestic currency and the enormous risks caused thereby.

"As the statistic shows, one well-known domestic enterprise in the Central Asia lost about USD 1.8 billion for currency devaluation last year" said Luo Feng. 10 years ago, we may not need the internationalization of RMB nor needed to concern about the exchange rate changes of other countries. But now, when we make the investment, what we take is RMB or US dollars and what we take back is the local currency. But many countries along the Belt and Road do not have US dollars, which may cause a big risk of depreciation.

As far as Luo Feng concerned, the new system of clearing and settlement established by the Silk Road International Bank through the big data and the block chain structure changes the past tree structure of dollar-based system into the net structure, which can realize the real-time account arrival and reduce the financial risks; what's more, under the new clearing system, all the money can become the clearing currency, which not only provides services for Chinese enterprises, but also is welcomed by European enterprises. The philosophy of "Co-consulting, Co-construction and Sharing" advocated by Belt and Road Initiative is truly reflected.

Luo Feng said frankly, African could not afford to install the fixed-line telephones and it evolved into the 3G era across the 2G era directly, realizing "out of nothing" and "corner overtaking". "It is also true for the financial infrastructures: presently, we really have the chance to enable the African finance to make the breakthrough from 'zero to one' like the communication industry through the new technologies such as the big data and the digital bank.

Luo Feng revealed that apart from the Silk Road International Bank in Djibouti, setting up a new silk road bank in Togo (Community of West African States) and a two-wing development pattern of "Togo in the west and Djibouti in the east" finally are being considered.

Presently, IZP Group has obtained the interbank clearing license in more than 40 countries of Europe, Central Asia, Africa, South Asia, Middle East, North Africa, etc. It is expected that it will enter into more than 120 overseas countries and regions in the next 3 years. The establishment of the Djibouti Silk Road International Bank is an important link of its global layout and will be the bridgehead for it to develop business in Africa.

@Shotgunner51 , @AndrewJin , @cirr , @ahojunk , @DayWalker90

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## Place Of Space

From this series, I learn more knowledge of OBOR route nations. Thanks.

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## TaiShang

*Spotlight: China's Belt and Road Initiative promotes connectivity, development along ancient route*
Xinhua, January 2, 2017

More than three years ago, Chinese President Xi Jinping proposed to build the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road.

Looking back at 2016, the Belt and Road Initiative has gained fruitful early achievements, promoting connectivity and opening up possibilities and potentials for development along the ancient trade route.

SILK ROAD ECONOMIC BELT STRINGS ROADS TOGETHER

One day in golden October in Kashgar of China's Xinjiang Region, a fleet of 50 trucks of a joint trade convoy carrying large containers started to roll along the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

After passing the Pamirs, crossing the Har goolun Range, and threading Pakistan's western region, the fleet finally arrived at its destination -- the Gwadar Port of Pakistan, concluding its 3,115-km journey in a month.

The containers carried by the fleet were shipped to the United Arab Emirates and other countries, marking the Gwadar port's first export of containers to overseas destinations, and showing that the port has restored the designed handling capacity.

Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said that CPEC is destined to transform the entire country and open up a world of possibilities for not just Pakistan but also Central Asian states.

In February 2016, China Railway Tunnel Group completed building the Qamchiq Tunnel in Uzbekistan, the longest tunnel in Central Asia. It is part of the 169-km Angren-Pap railway line, a major state project. After completion of the rail line, Uzbekistan's domestic transport will no longer have to go through foreign territories.

*"If we say 2013 is the year of proposal, 2014 is the year of guideline, 2015 is the year of top-level design, then 2016 is the year of implementing landmark projects of the Belt and Road Initiative,"* said Zhao Lei, a professor at China's Central Party School. "Many European countries have high approval rates on the Belt and Road Initiative."

Perhaps the busy-running China-Europe trains give the best illustration to people's acceptance. *Since the Belt and Road proposal, trains running between Europe and China have been burgeoning. By June 2016, trains had been running nearly 2,000 times between China and Europe, with a total of import and export value of 17 billion U.S. dollars.*

Many other projects are also under way. *The China-Belarus industrial park is in development, the Hungary-Serbia railroad is to be constructed by the Chinese side soon, cooperation between China and Central and Eastern European countries has been further expanded.*

The Silk Road Economic Belt, with a nature of inclusiveness and openness, has become a vital link connecting regional development and China's transformation.

21ST CENTURY MARITIME SILK ROAD CONNECTS ROADS AND PORTS

In October 2016, *the contract for the second phase of the China-Laos railway project was signed in Lao capital of Vientiane.*

Kicked off in late 2015, the construction of the project is expected to be completed in five years. Upon completion of the railway, a trip from Vientiane to the Chinese border will take only four hours, turning Laos from a landlocked country into a land-linked nation.

On Jan. 21, 2016,* at the ground-breaking ceremony of the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed railway*, Indonesian President Joko Widodo launched the country's first ever high-speed railway project in Walini, West Java Province.

With a maximum design speed of 350 km per hour, the travel time between Jakarta and Bandung will be cut from over three hours to less than one hour once the project is finished.

The Belt and Road Initiative provides opportunities not only for a new round of China's opening-up, but also for the growth of world economy.

On Aug. 10, 2016, *Chinese shipping giant COSCO acquired 67 percent stake of Piraeus Port Authority through the Athens Stock Exchange, officially becoming the controlling shareholder of the Greek port.*

Piraeus is expected to operate as a hub in Europe for the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, and to connect the Silk Road Economic Belt with the China-Europe Land-Sea Express Line.

According to Chinese ambassador to Greece Zou Xiaoli, Piraeus was not merely an economic project, but also a bridge to connect the peoples of Greece and China.

*In Africa, the Chinese-built Ethiopia-Djibouti railway has officially opened service, marking a milestone in cooperation between China, Ethiopia and Djibouti.*

In Cambodia, the Sihanoukville Special Economic Zone has attracted hundreds of enterprises, providing a model of China-Cambodia cooperation under the Belt and Road Initiative.

In Myanmar, a consortium of six foreign companies led by China's CITIC has won two bids to build an industrial park and a deep-sea port in the Kyaukpyu Special Economic Zone in Rakhine State, which will improve the country's infrastructure, local people's employment and livelihood.

In Sri Lanka, the green light has been given to the delayed Colombo Port City. Through the Maritime Silk Road, China will support the country in becoming a shipping, logistics and even financial hub in the Indian Ocean.

A CHINESE MATTER, ALSO A WORLD MATTER

It has been nearly two years since the Chinese-owned company Southeast Asia Telecommunications entered the Cambodian market. *With an investment of 150 million U.S. dollars, a fiber network extending 10,000 km, and over 1,000 base stations, the company has improved the efficiency of communications in Cambodia, and was spoken highly of by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen.*

Apart from opening up a new market in Cambodia with the dedication to high-speed Internet and high-quality phone calls, the company is also shouldering social responsibility by launching the Youth Sci-Tech Education Base and the Cloud Data Center.

"Previously, people saw most 'Belt and Road' programs in areas such as energy and infrastructure.* In 2016, cooperation between China and those countries along the routes have been expanded to education, culture, medical care and telecommunications*," said Zhao of the Central Party School

*If the "hard connection" of the Belt and Road draws countries geographically closer, then the "soft connection" brings people together.*

Till now, over 100 countries and international organizations have expressed willingness to actively support and join the initiative, 40 of which have signed cooperation deals with China.

*In 2017, a Belt and Road summit will be held to further map out the blueprint of the initiative, explore business opportunities and deepen alignment of development strategies between China and the relevant parties.*

On June 22, 2016, during a speech at the Legislative Chamber of the Uzbek Supreme Assembly in Tashkent, Xi called for building a green, healthy, intelligent and peaceful Silk Road, laying out the future of the initiative.

According to Huang Rihan, Executive Director of the Belt and Road Institute at the Center for China and Globalization think tank, a green Silk Road urges environmental protection and intensive cultivation for sustained development.

A healthy Silk Road means closer cooperation in medical care and health among related countries. An intelligent Silk Road calls for people cultivation and exchanges. A peaceful Silk Road aims at implementing a common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security concept in Asia, then promoting world peace and stability, Huang added.

While addressing the Uzbek Parliament, Xi invited other countries to attend the 2017 Belt and Road summit. The summit will not only look back at the fruitful harvest made so far under the initiative, but also set up a new starting point for the future, observers said.

"The Belt and Road Initiative will not be a flash in the pan, nor will it be formalism," said Zhao, "China will go deep with the initiative and turn it into real benefits."

*"The agreement reached in November by the UN General Assembly to further promote the Belt and Road Initiative worldwide shows that its construction involves not just China, but also countries along the routes and the world at large,"* said Wang Yiwei, a professor at Renmin University of China.

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## Hindustani78

*China flags off first goods train to London*

By: PTI | Beijing | Published:January 2, 2017 4:16 pm
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/china-flags-off-first-goods-train-to-london-4455704/

*The train will travel for about 18 days and more than 12,000 kilometres before reaching its destination in Britain, the China Railway Corporation (CRC) said.*

China has launched its first freight train to London over 12,000 kms away as part of efforts by the world’s second largest economy to expand rail links to different areas across the globe to improve its dwindling exports and stabilise slowdown. The train departed from China’s international commodity hub Yiwu in Zhejiang Province yesterday. It will travel for about 18 days and more than 12,000 kilometres before reaching its destination in Britain, the China Railway Corporation (CRC) said.

Yiwu is known for producing small commodities, and the train mainly carried such goods, including household items, garments, cloth, bags and suitcases. It will pass through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France before arriving in London, state- run Xinhua news agency reported.

London is the 15th city in Europe added to China-Europe freight train services. The service will improve China-Britain trade ties, strengthen connectivity with western Europe, while better serving China’s Belt and Road Initiative, an infrastructure and trade network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes, the CRC said.

China’s exports totalled to USD 2.27 trillion in 2015 slowing down from USD 2.34 trillion in 2014. Its economy grew at 6.9 per cent in 2015, slipping below seven per cent in a quarter of century. As part of its efforts to stabilise its exports and economy, China has embarked on multi-billion dollar global connectivity project called the ‘One Belt One Road’ (Silk Road).

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## onebyone

*First China-U.K. Freight Train Departs as Xi Seeks to Lift Trade*
Bloomberg News
January 3, 2017, 1:28 PM GMT+11 January 4, 2017, 1:34 AM GMT+11

London trip will span 18 days and more than 12,000 kilometers
‘Silk Road’ service to transit Asia, Europe and Channel Tunnel






London is the 15th city in Europe to be added to China’s freight train services to the continent.Photographer: Pierre-Philippe Marcou/AFP via Getty Images


China started a freight train to London as part of President Xi Jinping’s efforts to strengthen trade ties with Europe, according to state-owned China Railway Corp.

The train departed Yiwu in eastern Zhejiang province on Jan. 1 and will cover more than 12,000 kilometers (7,500 miles) in about 18 days before reaching the British city, China Railway Corp. said in a statement on its website on Monday. The freighter, carrying garments, bags and suitcases among other items, will pass through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France. Xinhua reported the service earlier.


London is the 15th city in Europe to be added to China’s freight train services to the continent as Xi seeks to reinforce commercial links with markets across Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Europe. In 2013, Xi unveiled his so-called Belt-and-Road initiative, making transport lines the centerpiece of his efforts to create a modern Silk Road.

Read more about China’s modern-day Silk Road here

China has initially set aside about $40 billion in a fund to finance roads and railways abroad under the plan, while the nation’s trade with countries along the routes could reach $2.5 trillion in about a decade, Yao Gang, the then vice chairman of China Securities Regulatory Commission, said in 2015.

Railways is one of the top priorities of President Xi and only last month, the country announced that it plans to spend 3.5 trillion yuan ($503 billion) to expand the national railway system by 2020.

The high-speed rail network will span more than 30,000 kilometers under the proposal, according to details released at a State Council Information Office briefing in Beijing Thursday. The distance, about 6.5 times the length of a road trip between New York and Los Angeles, will cover 80 percent of major cities in China.

China has also used railways as a diplomatic tool overseas. Chinese domestic train manufacturers have targeted emerging markets in Africa, Latin America and Southeast Asia for rail-related orders while also bidding for high-profile contracts in the developed world.

Rail trade between Asia and Europe is rather unique when bulk of the goods between the two continents travel by ships. Goods sail about 10 days to reach Los Angeles from Asia, and could take as many as 30 days to Rotterdam.

China’s economy is on pace to meet the official growth target, posting 6.7 percent expansions in the first three quarters of 2016.

— With assistance by Sam Nagarajan

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ght-train-to-london-as-xi-promotes-trade-ties

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## onebyone

'China freight train' in first trip to Barking, London

3 January 2017



Image copyright GETTY IMAGES The first freight train from China arrived in Hamburg in August 2013 after a 15 day journey

China has launched a direct rail freight service to London, as part of its drive to develop trade and investment ties with Europe.

China Railway already runs services between China and other European cities, including Madrid and Hamburg.

The train will take about two weeks to cover the 12,000 mile journey and is carrying a cargo of clothes, bags and other household items.

It has the advantage of being cheaper than air freight and faster than sea.




Image copyright GETTY IMAGES
The first China-Europe Block Train for Madrid left Yiwu Railway Freight Station in November 2014

The proliferation of routes linking China and Europe is part of a strategy launched in 2013 aimed at boosting infrastructure links with Europe along the former Silk Road trading routes.

London will become the 15th European city to join what the Chinese government calls the New Silk Route.

The service will pass through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany Belgium and France before arriving at Barking Rail Freight Terminal in East London, which is directly connected to the High Speed 1 rail line to the European mainland.

Because of the different railway gauges involved, a single train cannot travel the whole route and the containers need to be reloaded at various points.

The Chinese government is keen to boost its economy in the face of slowing export and economic growth.






http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38497997?yptr=yahoo

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## TaiShang

onebyone said:


>



OBOR goes northwest. Excellent. Currently, that's the most viable route, along with China-Central Asia-Eastern Europe-Western Europe route.

Interestingly, railway gauge systems actually push China to down south. But, despite of this, China goes northwest. There must be strong political, security and economic reasons for this.

If the newly-laid tracks in Russia-Central Asia are made compatible with that of China's, they will have even bigger advantage and larger piece of China's development public goods.

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## onebyone

*Globalization Isn’t Doomed. It’s Evolving, With China As A Leader
*
*China attaches great importance to making globalization and global governance work again.*
01/04/2017 11:00 am ET | *Updated* 8 hours ago

The worldwide debate about globalization has been upended by “the Trump phenomenon,” which has spread like wildfire across Europe and elsewhere. The two separate camps of “deglobalization” versus “reglobalization” are pitted against each other in a tug of war with no clear winner.

From a historical perspective, globalization has not been linear in its progress. There have been ups and downs and twists and turns. With several decades of fast growth of globalization, the world has reaped unprecedented benefits, but we have also seen a widening gap between the rich and the poor and a deeper division between capital and labor, as predicted by Karl Marx.

Globalization will continue but with a different paradigm or narrative, ushering in a new era of “reglobalization,” wherein China is called upon to play a key role of leadership. China’s President Xi Jinping is going to the Davos World Economic Forum this January, which again indicates that China attaches great importance to making globalization and global governance work again, even though now globalization is somewhat in shatters and in urgent need of change.

Although what anti-globalization measures President-elect Trump will take and what will happen in European politics in the next few years are mostly in the domain of unknowns, there are a few trends that will no doubt continue. One trend is that after the 2008 financial crisis, neo-liberalism has been retreating or receding at a rapid pace globally. Another trend is that despite global economic slowdown, China’s economic growth path and political system have been resilient.

The contrast between a collapsing neo-liberalism of the West and the much-welcomed new development model espoused and practiced by China is not to be missed. I am certain that it will be featured prominently at the upcoming annual Davos gathering too. In the last decade or so, China has taken a proactive approach to the provision of global commons ranging from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization to the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank, from Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership to the “One Belt & One Road” initiative.

Amid growing uncertainty caused by political and economic shifts in advanced nations like the U.S., U.K., Italy and France, China stands out as an anchor of stability and continuity in global governance and international efforts to tackle global challenges such as climate change. Of course, it is not just about China, the U.S. and Europe. It is about the changing political and economic landscape of the world we live in and about the “rebalance” or “convergence” between developed and developing nations on a scale that has not been seen since the industrial revolution a few hundred years ago. Global governance is undergoing a historical shift from Western governance to co-governance by the East and West. Will we succeed in shaping the emerging new world order to be more fair and just?

Reglobalization does not mean throwing away the current global governance system. China has repeatedly expressed its firm position that it wants to safeguard, reinforce and reform the existing governance system.

Rising populism in the U.S. and Europe is a result of the widening income and wealth gap. That root cause that keeps feeding the populist anger against the elites in the West is now crystal clear. If that angst cannot be diffused, any talk of a new world order would be futile. China’s success in continuous growth and reduction of poverty should be a model for other nations.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/globalization-china-leader_us_586bcee0e4b0d9a5945c8b2a

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## Jlaw

China leadership is better for the world

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## Chinese-Dragon

Globalization sucks for countries that are not competitive.

When you're not competitive, you prefer not to compete. Down that road lies communist-style stagnation.

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## Place Of Space

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Globalization sucks for countries that are not competitive.
> 
> When you're not competitive, you prefer not to compete. Down that road lies communist-style stagnation.



Most countries in the world are not that competitive. So I don't think competitiveness is the standard or condition of accepting globalization.

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## TaiShang

Interesting historical point of convergence in which one set of actors are receding while another set of actors are rising. The receding actors wish to bring the system (that they set up, for the most part) down with themselves at the sight of the fact that the rising actors are now benefitting more than they were supposed to do.

Make no mistake, if the previous state of affairs, in which China was a mere dirty-cheap factory of the world with no competitive and innovative edge, continued, the receding actors would fanatically argue about maintaining the great globalization movement and claim that if the impoverished nations were in miserable conditions, the guilt must be looked for in their own backward cultures, insufficient public services and inefficient governance.

Yet, especially with respect to China, it has not been the case. China has transformed itself from a low-end, low value-added manufacturer into a (still developing) innovative economy with an all-around industrial manufacturing chain and logistics. Especially from the 2012, China has also set out to qualitatively and quantitatively improve regional conditions by proposing a comprehensive framework of maritime-land connectivity centered-around Eurasia. This meant that China was not simply asking for a piece from the pie for itself only, but a more fair distribution.

The West (US) would be fine about an idea of a G2, giving China its fair share of economic benefits. But, sharing the world resources with the rest of the world was a no-go. If China was weak, the US-led West would simply punish it and make an accomplice out of it; but because of China's strength, that was largely also out of option (although they tried in various places from Xinjiang to Hong Kong and, probably, in Taiwan, China, in the future).

Then, what option remained for the US-led West other than simply retreating and backing down on their own promises and demonizing the very system that enabled them in-proportionately wealthier at the cost of the rest? Hence, they are retreating, cursing globalization and free trade, and blaming all their miserable existence on China's competitive and more efficient industries.

My argument is that re-globalization is possible without active participation of the US-led West. The OBOR has been designed to show this. Hence, China has been doing more trade with the rest of the world minus US-EU. I believe we have the capacity and potential to develop and grow not only because of (and in cooperation with) the US-led West but also in spite of it.

The ideal situation would be the first option, for sure.

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## Shotgunner51

Place Of Space said:


> Most countries in the world are not that competitive.




There is one simple, convenient and decisive factor - currency - that can alter relative competitiveness. This looks simple, but in fact is the most complicated factor that may involve post-WWII status quo, geopolitics, domestic politics, national/public interests, vested interest groups ("political elites").

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## Viet

Jlaw said:


> China leadership is better for the world


China is big. You have enough room there to lead the landscape. No, you as leader have never been good for anyone. Least your immediate neighbors. Look at history.

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## Place Of Space

Viet said:


> China is big. You have enough room there to lead the landscape. No, you as leader have never been good for anyone. Least your immediate neighbors. Look at history.



At recent history, Vietnam was a province of China. Qing dynasty didn't deal well with UK and France about the regional geopolitics. Since 1850's, UK intend to ally with China to fight against France, and Russia in Asia, specially in Indochina it's obviously UK-China vs France-Burma. China defeated France, north Vietnam should haven't been annexed by France. This is the history you might not learn.

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## Viet

Place Of Space said:


> At recent history, Vietnam was a province of China.


I know that part of history. China treated Vietnam 100 times worse than Taiwan today when Vietnam broke away.


Place Of Space said:


> Qing dynasty didn't deal well with UK and France about the regional geopolitics. Since 1850's, UK intend to ally with China to fight against France, and Russia in Asia, specially in Indochina it's obviously UK-China vs France-Burma. China defeated France, north Vietnam should haven't been annexed by France. This is the history you might not learn.


wrong. China intervened in Vietnam when it was too late when you realized the French would use Vietnam as springboard for the invasion of China. the French´s assault on China came as expected. China lost the war, had to cede territories to the French. if there was no danger for China, you would not bother lifting a finger.


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## Chinese-Dragon

TaiShang said:


> Hence, they are retreating, cursing globalization and free trade, and blaming all their miserable existence on China's competitive and more efficient industries.



Exactly. Competition and free markets were their great ideology... when they were winning. 

Now that they are losing, they are retreating into protectionism. Even before Trump, the USA was already the number 1 most protectionist country in the world. Trump is merely continuing the trend.

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## Place Of Space

Viet said:


> I know that part of history. China treated Vietnam 100 times worse than Taiwan today when Vietnam broke away.
> 
> wrong. China intervened in Vietnam when it was too late when you realized the French would use Vietnam as springboard for the invasion of China. the French´s assault on China came as expected. China lost the war, had to cede territories to the French. if there was no danger for China, you would not bother lifting a finger.



China give you spirit and soul. After you check your neighbors such as Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar sometimes fall badly in ethnic and religious conflict, like when you lack air and water, you will find its significances. 

China won the war. France-Burma ally was suppressed. At the time, the whole Vietnam as a country didn't exist already.

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## Viet

Place Of Space said:


> China give you spirit and soul. After you check your neighbors such as Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar sometimes fall badly in ethnic and religious conflict, like when you lack air and water, you will find its significances.
> 
> China won the war. France-Burma ally was suppressed. At the time, the whole Vietnam as a country didn't exist already.


Calling VN not existing as like you call China not existing until PRC is established. You lost the war against the French. Read the treaty of Tientsin (1885), China accepted French protectorate over Vietnam. in addition the treaty of Hue (1884), demanding Vietnam to stop paying tribute to China after 1,000 years.

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## shjliu

Viet said:


> China is big. You have enough room there to lead the landscape. No, you as leader have never been good for anyone. Least your immediate neighbors. Look at history.


Without China, Vietnam may no longer exist as it is now, will be colonized by US. Look at history.

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## Place Of Space

Viet said:


> Calling VN not existing as like you call China not existing until PRC is established. You lost the war against the French. Read the treaty of Tientsin (1885), China accepted French protectorate over Vietnam. in addition the treaty of Hue (1884), demanding Vietnam to stop paying tribute to China after 1,000 years.



I said Qing dyansty didn't deal well with UK and France about the regional geopolitics. On battlefield Qing won, Qing should have closely allied with UK, but it didn't realize the importances of diplomacy and geopolitics.

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## Viet

Place Of Space said:


> I said Qing dyansty didn't deal well with UK and France about the regional geopolitics. On battlefield Qing won, Qing should have closely allied with UK, but it didn't realize the importances of diplomacy and geopolitics.


the qing army may have scored victories in one or two battles, but lost all the wars against foreign aggressors. otherwise you would not have signed a series of unequal treaties, including the ones with the French over Vietnam.



shjliu said:


> Without China, Vietnam may no longer exist as it is now, will be colonized by US. Look at history.


part of the truth is, without the war you staged against Vietnam in the 1979 and throughout 1980s, our relationship would be much better now. but anyway, the PLA learned a lot from Vietnam during the encounter, otherwise China army today would have been still a peasant army in the Mao area. like the US armed forces, they learned from Vietnam war too. they scrapped military draft and turned the army to a professional army.

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## Place Of Space

Viet said:


> the qing army may have scored victories in one or two battles, but lost all the wars against foreign aggressors. otherwise you would not have signed a series of unequal treaties, including the ones with the French over Vietnam.
> 
> 
> part of the truth is, without the war you staged against Vietnam in the 1979 and throughout 1980s, our relationship would be much better now. but anyway, the PLA learned a lot from Vietnam during the encounter, otherwise China army today would have been still a peasant army in the Mao area. like the US armed forces, they learned from Vietnam war too. they scrapped military draft and turned the army to a professional army.



Let's come back to the topic. Do Vietnam support or oppose globalization?

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## nature is

Viet said:


> the qing army may have scored victories in one or two battles, but lost all the wars against foreign aggressors. otherwise you would not have signed a series of unequal treaties, including the ones with the French over Vietnam.
> 
> 
> part of the truth is, without the war you staged against Vietnam in the 1979 and throughout 1980s, our relationship would be much better now. but anyway, the PLA learned a lot from Vietnam during the encounter, otherwise China army today would have been still a peasant army in the Mao area. like the US armed forces, they learned from Vietnam war too. they scrapped military draft and turned the army to a professional army.



European power ruled the world in 19th century, but we were still a sovereign country, unlike Vietnam. So you don't come brag this and that, blah, blah, blah. And don't derail this thread.

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## TaiShang

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Exactly. Competition and free markets were their great ideology... when they were winning.
> 
> Now that they are losing, they are retreating into protectionism. Even before Trump, the USA was already the number 1 most protectionist country in the world. Trump is merely continuing the trend.



If I were the US, I would be concerned the most if China really began to act just as the US acted before.

During the early oil discovery period in the Middle East, the US utilized every diplomacy instruments, including military, to protect and promote their oil companies.

The US also used tariff and non-tariff barriers very aggressively to protect home industries. Some even argue that the US grew stronger because of trade barriers.

But, they have kept accusing China for its efforts to protect nascent domestic industries through some government support and protection.

They have kept accusing China for putting trade barriers although China is the second largest importer in the world.

I just hope (and anticipate) that China won't make an ideology out of globalization or free market concepts into which it would trap itself. Rather, China needs to pragmatically utilize these theories and offer as much inclusive and common opportunities as possible to ensure comprehensive development.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-trade-history

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## Viet

Place Of Space said:


> Let's come back to the topic. Do Vietnam support or oppose globalization?


sure VN supports free flow of capital, human, services and goods, aka globalization. haven´t you noticed VN signs 16 FTAs? from China, Japan, South Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, to Chile and the Russia led Eurasia Economic Union (EAEU), from EU to TPP. under negotiation is FTA with Hong Kong, Israel and North European countries.

also VN is open to free flow of labour. anyone with sought after qualifications can work in VN, can buy properties, get residency.


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## Place Of Space

Viet said:


> sure VN supports free flow of capital, human, services and goods, aka globalization. haven´t you noticed VN signs 16 FTAs? from China, Japan, South Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, to Chile and the Russia led Eurasia Economic Union (EAEU), from EU to TPP. under negotiation is FTA with Hong Kong, Israel and North European countries.
> 
> also VN is open to free flow of labour. anyone with sought after qualifications can work in VN, can buy properties, get residency.



FTA is not globalization, it may be anti-globalization.

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## Viet

Place Of Space said:


> FTA is not globalization, it may be anti-globalization.


what is your definition of globalization?



nature is said:


> European power ruled the world in 19th century, but we still keep our sovereignty, unlike Vietnam. So you don't come and brag this and that, blah, blah, blah. And don't derail this thread.


I don´t brag. I would not bother to comment in any thread if not concerning VN.
similar the case if the indo posters don´t brag being the boss of Asean, I don´t give a second to waste on.


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## nature is

Viet said:


> what is your definition of globalization?
> 
> 
> I don´t brag. I would not bother to comment in any thread if not concerning VN.
> similar the case if the indo posters don´t brag being the boss of Asean, I don´t give a second to waste on.



Indonesia, being the largest country in Asean, is sometimes touted as the leader.

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## Viet

nature is said:


> Indonesia, being the largest country in Asean, is sometimes touted as the leader.


leader in what? touted by whom? as largest country you are qualified as leader? leader in producing en mass of people?

the indo finished as the before last in the last PISA test. they send women to HK and elsewhere to be served as maids in Chinese households. they have no money no expertise no nothing to invest in Asean. they advance a nationalistic policy, hindering exports and imports. nor have they interest of Asean politics. the country basically has Jakarta and Bali. the rest can be ignored. the capital sinks rapidly to the earth core due to withdrawal of ground waters. they burn more rain forests to the ground than the entire planet. but all of these, nobody in the self reclaimed leader cares of.


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## Place Of Space

Viet said:


> what is your definition of globalization?
> 
> 
> I don´t brag. I would not bother to comment in any thread if not concerning VN.
> similar the case if the indo posters don´t brag being the boss of Asean, I don´t give a second to waste on.



FTA is more about bilateral or regional cooperation. WTO's mission is globalization. But as we can see, WTO fall in difficulties these years, nations turn to establish FTAs. However, TPP's faiture is a good sign for globalization. Without China and Russia entering, can it be called global-what? The future is still bright.

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## katarabhumi

Viet said:


> what is your definition of globalization?
> 
> I don´t brag. I would not bother to comment in any thread if not concerning VN.
> similar the case if the indo posters don´t brag being the boss of Asean, I don´t give a second to waste on.



When do we really brag as boss of ASEAN actually?.. It's only an overreaction on your part. If other see and think Indonesia as leader ASEAN then so be it.. If they're not then so be it -too. Everybody has opinion, don't lose yourself.



Viet said:


> leader in what? touted by whom? as largest country you are qualified as leader? leader in producing en mass of people?
> 
> the indo finished as the before last in the last PISA test. they send women to HK and elsewhere to be served as maids in Chinese households. they have no money no expertise no nothing to invest in Asean. they advance a nationalistic policy, hindering exports and imports. nor have they interest of Asean politics. the country basically has Jakarta and Bali. the rest can be ignored. the capital sinks rapidly to the earth core due to withdrawal of ground waters. they burn more rain forests to the ground than the entire planet. but all of these, nobody in the self reclaimed leader cares of.



Have you take your pill?


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## Viet

katarabhumi said:


> When do we really brag as boss of ASEAN actually?.. It's only an overreaction on your part. If other see and think Indonesia as leader ASEAN then so be it.. If they're not then so be it -too. Everybody has opinion, don't lose yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you take your pill?


Yes I take my pill by eating pho now. If you manage keeping your leadership bullshit to yourself then everyone is happy. Don't care a penny of what other paid cheep cheerleaders say you are this or that.


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## TaiShang

*Collapse of Anglo-US model highlight of 2016*
By Heiko Khoo
China.org.cn, January 5, 2017

It was a dramatic year in world politics. After a long period of slowly-accumulating social and economic contradictions, a new and tumultuous era has opened up, heralding a time of sudden transformations, social and cultural upheavals, and ideological flux.

In June 2016, the British people voted to leave the European Union, thus reversing the trend towards globalization. Similarly, the election of Donald Trump as U.S. President signals the end of American-backed multilateralism. In consequence, the Anglo-U.S. model of Neoliberal Capitalism is dead.

Such developments hide a broader and deeper malaise affecting world capitalism. In order to balance the books and restore "economic credibility" many countries adopted draconian austerity measures following the Great Recession of 2008-9.

In the advanced capitalist countries of Europe and the United States, overall living standards have fallen. Many poor and middle-income countries experienced catastrophic social consequences.

This is leading to a revolt at the ballot box, against what is often called "the political class" or "the establishment."

It also exposes the falseness in four long-promoted "commonsense" myths: that enriching the few eventually benefits the many; that countries will increasingly integrate and collaborate; that wealthy capitalist democracies assist poor countries to develop; and that these same wealthy countries are international guarantors of peace, justice and human rights.

Firstly, even in the wealthiest countries economic inequality has assumed grotesque proportions.

Secondly, the BREXIT vote, the EU migration crisis, and Donald Trump's anti-migrant rhetoric all reveal that the four-decade process of global integration is ending and a process of disintegration is taking hold.

The third myth is negated by the fact that global development over the last 65 years, has seen only 13 countries grew fast enough to make it into the high-income club of nations.

And the fourth myth has been shattered by the wars in the Middle East and North Africa, and the growth of the surveillance state.

Best-case scenarios for the world's leading economies predict sluggish growth in 2017. Therefore, the anger and discontent witnessed in 2016 will continue to exert social pressure on the existing order.

In the capitalist democracies, challenges to the ruling class is opening the way for all manner of peculiar creatures to have their moment in the spotlight.

For now, it is the right-wing that is on the ascendancy. With its nationalist appeal, it reawakens nostalgia for "tradition" and defending national, racial and religious identity as prevailed in the "good old days." The right-wing psychologically emboldened many of those who lost their bearings when economic prospects worsened.

Middle class grievances, a feeling of being cheated by the rich and powerful, coagulates into potent ideological concoctions combining prejudice and ignorance with arrogant assertions of power.

Around this core support base, a wider public is won over by conservative slogans and buzzwords. They function as if they are specifically designed to excite nationalist, xenophobic, racial, religious or sexual conflicts.

One thing is certain, none of the central problems in society will be resolved by the solutions proposed by the present rulers of Europe or the U.S. And this is because of the structural foundations of the system.

Politics is like a theatrical performance whose function, at root, is to help the biggest companies maximize their profits. Control over the political script and the performance on stage is normally guaranteed.

Deeply entrenched economic interests dominate politics. In this system - no matter what shade of government is in power - the interests of the largest privately-owned profit-seeking companies, shape the contours of the world's economy.

Private profit is the central driving force of this type of society. Indeed, despite popular perceptions, Donald Trump did not win the U.S. Presidency by means of astute buffoonery, or because of his rhetoric against migrants and the political and economic establishment. He won because billions (in dollar terms) stand behind him!

Now, his chosen cabinet of billionaire courtiers suggests a period of direct capitalist control of the government. This is a dangerous game to play. It risks exposing the assiduously concealed reality of the symbiotic relationship between political power and big business. Consequently, challenges to the system as a whole are more likely.

The present wave of reactionary politics, which aims to restore tradition, contain migration, revive national pride, and promote religious morality and sexual conservatism, will continue to make advances.

However, the working classes are not simply passive observers. Their interests are not aligned with "traditional values" but are universal and international and comprise a real alternative to the present reactionary political tide.

A hundred years after the Russian revolution established the first Marxist government in 1917, the ideas of socialism are finding a receptive audience in the U.S. This explains why Senator Bernie Sanders' socialist slogans in the U.S. presidential campaign found such an echo among the poor, the workers and the youth.

The current turn to mystical and reactionary politics will fail to deliver prosperity; so more concrete visions of socialist change will emerge out of popular discontent and generate mass support for much deeper revolutionary change.

_Heiko Khoo is a columnist with China.org.cn._

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## nature is

Viet said:


> leader in what? touted by whom? as largest country you are qualified as leader? leader in producing en mass of people?
> 
> the indo finished as the before last in the last PISA test. they send women to HK and elsewhere to be served as maids in Chinese households. they have no money no expertise no nothing to invest in Asean. they advance a nationalistic policy, hindering exports and imports. nor have they interest of Asean politics. the country basically has Jakarta and Bali. the rest can be ignored. the capital sinks rapidly to the earth core due to withdrawal of ground waters. they burn more rain forests to the ground than the entire planet. but all of these, nobody in the self reclaimed leader cares of.



By various commentary and editorial, if you read them.

As ASEAN's ‘natural leader’, Indonesia should assert leadership
http://www.thejakartapost.com/seasi...eader-indonesia-should-assert-leadership.html

Why Indonesia should take a leading role in ASEAN
http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/03/28/why-indonesia-should-take-a-leading-role-in-asean/


Development and social issues are common to all countries in the Asean. But if you tip the scale, Indonesia has size advantage over others.

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## Viet

nature is said:


> By various commentary and editorial, if you read them.
> 
> As ASEAN's ‘natural leader’, Indonesia should assert leadership
> http://www.thejakartapost.com/seasi...eader-indonesia-should-assert-leadership.html
> 
> Why Indonesia should take a leading role in ASEAN
> http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/03/28/why-indonesia-should-take-a-leading-role-in-asean/
> 
> 
> Development and social issues are common to all countries in the Asean. But if you tip the scale, Indonesia has size advantage over others.


No thanks. We have no interest of following the leader in sending our women to overseas to become slaves in Chinese households. Nor have we intention to burn our forests to the ground.


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## katarabhumi

Viet said:


> Yes I take my pill by eating pho now. If you manage keeping your leadership bullshit to yourself then everyone is happy. Don't care a penny of what other paid cheep cheerleaders say you are this or that.



You contradict yourself, first you said we have no money and next you said we paid other for cheerleading?

Don't forget to provide better job for your poor fishermen, share them some pho too to ease their hunger so no need to steal in our yard. Now how's the 4 year plan going? Any progress?



nature is said:


> By various commentary and editorial, if you read them.
> 
> As ASEAN's ‘natural leader’, Indonesia should assert leadership
> http://www.thejakartapost.com/seasi...eader-indonesia-should-assert-leadership.html
> 
> Why Indonesia should take a leading role in ASEAN
> http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/03/28/why-indonesia-should-take-a-leading-role-in-asean/
> 
> 
> Development and social issues are common to all countries in the Asean. But if you tip the scale, Indonesia has size advantage over others.



TBH we don't really care about the leadership thing nor we brag about being one. You may scan through our Indonesian thread(s) to prove that.. but in case you ever find them, that usually made to tease some funny Viet around here.

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## onebyone

*Trains Are The New Pandas: The Story Behind The New China-UK Rail Line*
Wade Shepard ,
CONTRIBUTOR
I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.


A 200-container block train pulled out from the West Railway Station of Yiwu, in China’s coastal Zhejiang province, on Monday, January 2nd. Its destination was not nearby Shanghai, Beijing, or even the booming city of Chengdu in the west, but Barking — as in the London borough. This train, laden with clothes, bags, and household items, will make the 12,000 kilometer journey in 16 days, and symbolically usher in a new stage in China-UK trade relations.

This new rail route, which will traverse Kazakhstan, a part of Russia, Belarus, and the EU before entering the UK via the Channel Tunnel, is part of a rapidly growing network that now consists of 39 rail lines, which directly connect 16 cities in China with 15 cities in Europe.

_





London becomes the 15th European city to be linked into the emerging trans-Eurasian rail network (Photo by VCG/VCG via Getty Images)_

What is now a paradigm-shifting international trade network, arose from humble beginnings in Chongqing in 2012. Ronald Kleijwegt, the director of the logistics team at HP, began looking for a better way to ship the electronics and components that his company was manufacturing in central China to Europe in the late 2000s. By 2012, he had the kinks worked out and began offering the first regular direct China-Europe rail service, which linked Chongqing with Duisburg in Germany. From this point, a veritable network rapidly began arising, with new lines connecting cities like Chengdu, Suzhou, Lianyungang, Wuhan, Xiamen, Zhengzhou, and Yiwu with Lodz, Warsaw, Madrid, Hamburg, and Lyon.

The economic fundamentals of this trans-Eurasian rail service is sound: these trains allowed manufacturers and freight forwarders to get their products between China and Europe in less than half the time of shipping by sea at a fraction of the cost of shipping by air. While these trains are not a viable form of transport for all types of products, they fill a void in the market for high-value products that need to be transported as quickly as possible, such as electronics, fashion items, car parts, heavy machinery, premium agricultural goods, and fresh meat.

While these direct trans-Eurasian block trains were initially developed by commercial entities purely for economic reasons, they soon took on a geopolitical dimension of their own. In 2013, China announced its Belt and Road initiative (BRI), which pledged over a trillion dollars to bolster the development of transportation, energy, and trade infrastructure from the west of China to the east of Europe, and the establishment of these rail lines soon became its vanguard -- which is attested to by the fact that the entire network is subsidized by the Chinese government.

This ambitious plan was to guide China’s participation in the preexisting New Silk Road project. Starting in the late 1990s, the Post-Soviet countries of Central Asia and the Caucasus began looking for new ways to boost their international relevance as well as their ailing economies, and many found inspiration in the romantic iterations of their history, when they were vibrant hubs along the Silk Road. Today, the re-creation of this ancient trade network has become one of the biggest infrastructural, economic, and political developments happening in the world. The countries of the Eurasian landmass, from the east of China to the west of Europe are gradually being pulled together into a contiguous market covering 60 countries, and 60% of the population, 75% of the energy resources, and 60% of the GDP in the world. It has been estimated that within ten years trade throughout this region could top $2.2 trillion annually.

Yiwu, a port city of roughly 1.2 million people on the coast of Zhejiang province that’s probably best known as the place where a huge portion of the world’s Christmas decorations come from is now directly connected by train to Barking, a borough of London that’s probably best known as the worst place to live in the entire UK. This is a trade route whose impact will extend far beyond merely being a mechanism for shipping a relatively meager amount of goods. This is not only a physical but a conceptual link tying together China and the UK via Central Asia, Russia, and mainland Europe. In essence, it is part of the soft power groundwork that further investment partnerships can be built up from.

With the UK’s future position with the EU looking uncertain due to Brexit, a potentially new paradigm for the island nation’s international relations is gradually revealing itself. And right on cue, China was at their doorstep.

All along the countries of the New Silk Road, China has been demonstrating the uncanny ability to fill economic and diplomatic vacuums wherever they arise. Seemingly as soon as a country has a diplomatic break up with a larger political power, China steps in offering economic, political, and, occasionally, military support to make up the difference.

When the US and EU slapped Russia with sanctions in 2014 over the conflicts in Ukraine and Crimea, China was right there with investment offers — which included a $15 billion bid to build a high-speed rail line between Moscow and Kazan — the establishment of a linked Sino-Russia electronic payment network, better synergy between the Moscow-led Eurasian Economic Union and the Belt and Road initiative, as well as increased cooperation in industries such as aerospace, science, and finance.

When Sri Lanka was brought up on charges of war crimes and the US turned off its aid flow and the EU declined to re-up its preferential trade concessions in the later half of the 2000s, the country simply did an about-face and aligned instead with China. The result was a spree of large-scale infrastructure projects, which included a new deep sea port, a container terminal, an international airport, a slew of highways, a massive financial district meant to rival Singapore and Dubai, and potentially a 15,000 acre industrial zone.

And when the US reputedly denied the Philippines arms and President Duterte when on his embarrassing tirades against Obama, China was who he ran to.

The UK is no different. The country’s dislocation with the EU was an invitation for China to up its efforts to engage economically and politically — something which the UK may need more than its East Asian suitor. As put by Kerry Brown on The Diplomat in October:

"Firstly, because as the UK risks alienating its key trade and economic allies in the European common market, the need to open up new high growth areas like that with China increases. The option in the past of treating China as a remote, more distant prospect is receding. Suddenly all the grand promises in the past of trading with Beijing in a new, expanded way have to become reality much quicker than was ever expected.

"Brexit will make the UK a weaker partner with China, and a dependent and vulnerable one. It is a lamentable outcome. And the likeliest attitude that will eventually prevail in Beijing will not be respect, or even malice towards the UK. The Chinese have bigger fish to fry. It will be more like sporadic pity, with the occasional flashback to memories of a time when the UK mattered – a dismal outcome for a country that, until recent times, was influential, respected and often admired in China despite its complex history.​
Plans are already underway in the UK for major Chinese-led development projects, including the Hinkley Point nuclear plant, potentially a new $2.12 billion Asian-focused financial district in the old East End dock area of London, and something called the Spire London project, which seeks to erect Europe’s tallest residential building in Canary Wharf. According to CBRE Group Inc., Chinese enterprises invested around $5 billion in London property in 2016 — a record amount — and London is in the process of becoming one of the largest centers for RMB trading in the world. While Chinese companies may gradually move their European headquarters from the UK to the EU, a more independent UK is looking to be very attractive to Chinese investors, which could ultimately result in closer economic ties, according to Angela Stanzel of the European Council on Foreign Relations.

While this new direct rail route from Yiwu to London will provide a new, more cost effective and efficient way to ship products from one side of Eurasia to the other, its true benefit will be found in the conceptual link that it establishes between China and the UK. Trains have become the new pandas in Chinese diplomacy.

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. Follow by RSS.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...ehind-the-new-china-to-uk-train/#36bb58e04349_

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## ahojunk

*Trains Are The New Pandas: The Story Behind The New China-UK Rail Line*
JAN 6, 2017 @ 02:25 PM
Wade Shepard , CONTRIBUTOR
I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.

A 200-container block train pulled out from the West Railway Station of Yiwu, in China’s coastal Zhejiang province, on Monday, January 2nd. Its destination was not nearby Shanghai, Beijing, or even the booming city of Chengdu in the west, but Barking — as in the London borough. This train, laden with clothes, bags, and household items, will make the 12,000 kilometer journey in 16 days, and symbolically usher in a new stage in China-UK trade relations.

This new rail route, which will traverse Kazakhstan, a part of Russia, Belarus, and the EU before entering the UK via the Channel Tunnel, is part of a rapidly growing network that now consists of 39 rail lines, which directly connect 16 cities in China with 15 cities in Europe.

What is now a paradigm-shifting international trade network, arose from humble beginnings in Chongqing in 2012. Ronald Kleijwegt, the director of the logistics team at HP, began looking for a better way to ship the electronics and components that his company was manufacturing in central China to Europe in the late 2000s. By 2012, he had the kinks worked out and began offering the first regular direct China-Europe rail service, which linked Chongqing with Duisburg in Germany. From this point, a veritable network rapidly began arising, with new lines connecting cities like Chengdu, Suzhou, Lianyungang, Wuhan, Xiamen, Zhengzhou, and Yiwu with Lodz, Warsaw, Madrid, Hamburg, and Lyon.

The economic fundamentals of this trans-Eurasian rail service is sound: these trains allowed manufacturers and freight forwarders to get their products between China and Europe in less than half the time of shipping by sea at a fraction of the cost of shipping by air. While these trains are not a viable form of transport for all types of products, they fill a void in the market for high-value products that need to be transported as quickly as possible, such as electronics, fashion items, car parts, heavy machinery, premium agricultural goods, and fresh meat.

While these direct trans-Eurasian block trains were initially developed by commercial entities purely for economic reasons, they soon took on a geopolitical dimension of their own. In 2013, China announced its Belt and Road initiative (BRI), which pledged over a trillion dollars to bolster the development of transportation, energy, and trade infrastructure from the west of China to the east of Europe, and the establishment of these rail lines soon became its vanguard -- which is attested to by the fact that the entire network is subsidized by the Chinese government.

This ambitious plan was to guide China’s participation in the preexisting New Silk Road project. Starting in the late 1990s, the Post-Soviet countries of Central Asia and the Caucasus began looking for new ways to boost their international relevance as well as their ailing economies, and many found inspiration in the romantic iterations of their history, when they were vibrant hubs along the Silk Road. Today, the re-creation of this ancient trade network has become one of the biggest infrastructural, economic, and political developments happening in the world. The countries of the Eurasian landmass, from the east of China to the west of Europe are gradually being pulled together into a contiguous market covering 60 countries, and 60% of the population, 75% of the energy resources, and 60% of the GDP in the world. It has been estimated that within ten years trade throughout this region could top $2.2 trillion annually.

Yiwu, a port city of roughly 1.2 million people on the coast of Zhejiang province that’s probably best known as the place where a huge portion of the world’s Christmas decorations come from is now directly connected by train to Barking, a borough of London that’s probably best known as the worst place to live in the entire UK. This is a trade route whose impact will extend far beyond merely being a mechanism for shipping a relatively meager amount of goods. This is not only a physical but a conceptual link tying together China and the UK via Central Asia, Russia, and mainland Europe. In essence, it is part of the soft power groundwork that further investment partnerships can be built up from.

With the UK’s future position with the EU looking uncertain due to Brexit, a potentially new paradigm for the island nation’s international relations is gradually revealing itself. And right on cue, China was at their doorstep.

All along the countries of the New Silk Road, China has been demonstrating the uncanny ability to fill economic and diplomatic vacuums wherever they arise. Seemingly as soon as a country has a diplomatic break up with a larger political power, China steps in offering economic, political, and, occasionally, military support to make up the difference.

When the US and EU slapped Russia with sanctions in 2014 over the conflicts in Ukraine and Crimea, China was right there with investment offers — which included a $15 billion bid to build a high-speed rail line between Moscow and Kazan — the establishment of a linked Sino-Russia electronic payment network, better synergy between the Moscow-led Eurasian Economic Union and the Belt and Road initiative, as well as increased cooperation in industries such as aerospace, science, and finance.

When Sri Lanka was brought up on charges of war crimes and the US turned off its aid flow and the EU declined to re-up its preferential trade concessions in the later half of the 2000s, the country simply did an about-face and aligned instead with China. The result was a spree of large-scale infrastructure projects, which included a new deep sea port, a container terminal, an international airport, a slew of highways, a massive financial district meant to rival Singapore and Dubai, and potentially a 15,000 acre industrial zone.

And when the US reputedly denied the Philippines arms and President Duterte when on his embarrassing tirades against Obama, China was who he ran to.


The UK is no different. The country’s dislocation with the EU was an invitation for China to up its efforts to engage economically and politically — something which the UK may need more than its East Asian suitor. As put by Kerry Brown on The Diplomat in October:

_"Firstly, because as the UK risks alienating its key trade and economic allies in the European common market, the need to open up new high growth areas like that with China increases. The option in the past of treating China as a remote, more distant prospect is receding. Suddenly all the grand promises in the past of trading with Beijing in a new, expanded way have to become reality much quicker than was ever expected.

"Brexit will make the UK a weaker partner with China, and a dependent and vulnerable one. It is a lamentable outcome. And the likeliest attitude that will eventually prevail in Beijing will not be respect, or even malice towards the UK. The Chinese have bigger fish to fry. It will be more like sporadic pity, with the occasional flashback to memories of a time when the UK mattered – a dismal outcome for a country that, until recent times, was influential, respected and often admired in China despite its complex history._​
Plans are already underway in the UK for major Chinese-led development projects, including the Hinkley Point nuclear plant, potentially a new $2.12 billion Asian-focused financial district in the old East End dock area of London, and something called the Spire London project, which seeks to erect Europe’s tallest residential building in Canary Wharf. According to CBRE Group Inc., Chinese enterprises invested around $5 billion in London property in 2016 — a record amount — and London is in the process of becoming one of the largest centers for RMB trading in the world. While Chinese companies may gradually move their European headquarters from the UK to the EU, a more independent UK is looking to be very attractive to Chinese investors, which could ultimately result in closer economic ties, according to Angela Stanzel of the European Council on Foreign Relations.

While this new direct rail route from Yiwu to London will provide a new, more cost effective and efficient way to ship products from one side of Eurasia to the other, its true benefit will be found in the conceptual link that it establishes between China and the UK. Trains have become the new pandas in Chinese diplomacy.

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. _

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> All along the countries of the New Silk Road, China has been demonstrating the uncanny ability to fill economic and diplomatic vacuums wherever they arise. Seemingly as soon as a country has a diplomatic break up with a larger political power, China steps in offering economic, political, and, occasionally, military support to make up the difference.



Scientific policy making. Using soft energy to beat down hard energy. The West, even it studies Tao and Lao Tsu until its eyes fall off, will never truly comprehend it.

Which is good.

During the times of colonialism and Opium Wars, China was also unable to understand the West.



ahojunk said:


> "Brexit will make the UK a weaker partner with China, and a dependent and vulnerable one. It is a lamentable outcome. And the likeliest attitude that will eventually prevail in Beijing will not be respect, or even malice towards the UK. The Chinese have bigger fish to fry. It will be more like sporadic pity, with the occasional flashback to memories of a time when the UK mattered – a dismal outcome for a country that, until recent times, was influential,* respected and often admired in China* despite its complex history.



Never admired beyond pragmatic use of useful aspects. I guess we are not inflicted with Stockholm Syndrome. Instead of lamenting over the demise of the once powerful empire, let's let business thrive and money is made.


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## ahojunk

_More info on the train from Yiwu, China to Barking, London, UK._

========
JAN 3, 2017 @ 03:12 PM
*The New Silk Road: China Launches Beijing-London Freight Train Route*
Jonathan Webb , CONTRIBUTOR
_I write about the supply chain and corruption. 
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own_.





_A general view of the first China Railway Express, a new railway line from China to Europe during the inauguration by visiting Chinese President Xi Jinping in Warsar, Poland, on the sideline of the International Forum on the New Silk Road, Monday, 20 June 2016. The visit is intended to boost China's infrastructure investments in Europe, and opening China's market to Poland's foods. (AP Photo/Czarek Sokolowski)_

On Sunday, the Chinese government launched a rail freight service between China and London. This is the first direct rail link between China and Great Britain. The route of the service will traverse from Beijing, across Asia and Europe, before terminating in London.

The route is actually not new at all. It is part of the old Silk Road, which commenced in 200 BC, through which Chinese silk caravans carried wears to Europe and Africa. The trail provided much wealth and prestige for the Chinese Empire of the day.

Now, Beijing is aiming to resurrect this historic trade route by using rail power.

The journey is as much an engineering challenge as a logistical problem. Freight must swap trains along the way, as railway gauges vary between the connecting countries. In its 18-day journey, freight will span 7,456 miles of railways, crossing Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium, France and the UK.

The new route unlocks a new option for shippers. Currently, the choice is two-fold. One, take an ocean-bound route, which, although cheap, can be slow. Two, use an air carrier that is considerably faster, but much more expensive.

A direct rail link between Beijing and Western Europe enables manufacturers to explore new means to lower transport costs. The line may not provide a suitable alternative to all producers, but canny negotiators can leverage the new market entrant to lower prices of their established pathways by boat or plane.

The London link expands Chinese growing portfolio of rail connections. There are presently 39 lines that connect 12 European cities with 16 Chinese cities.

The move is part of China’s new ‘One Belt, One Road’ strategy, launched by president Xi Jinping in 2013. The initiative aims to improve links between the Beijing and its neighbors within Eurasia.

Logistical linkages are a key means to embed co-operation and trade relationships between countries. The first freight train as a part of this strategy linked China to Tehran. This connection links Iran with the central Asian countries of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and ultimately China.

Many analysts believe that an expanded Chinese economic role within central Asia will also enhance its political influence over an increasingly important global region.

In addition, Central Asian countries, such as Kazakhstan, may see a boon in their own economic performance. Historically, such countries have struggled to connect to the global economy. The new line may provide easy access to wealthy importer markets.

The announcement is also well-timed for the British. The government in London is currently scouring the world for trade deals, in anticipation of a departure from the European Union. China's economy is high on the list of prospective partners as the UK aims to open new trading deals unfettered by EU restrictions.

Economists look to infrastructural projects as a spur to economic development. China is the past-master at such engineering initiatives. It has transformed its economy through a series of well-planned transport and manufacturing investments. Should this new line prove successful, we can expect to see a similar resurgence of economic activity along the ancient Silk Road.


********

_There is an inaccuracy in this article.
The train is not from Beijing but from Yiwu._
.

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## ahojunk

_A video on the cargo train from China to Madrid, Spain._

=======






*Railway between China and Spain aids economic growth*


CGTN

Published on Jan 10, 2017

Overseas railway projects not only exemplify China's Belt and Road Initiative, but also boost local economies. Spain is one of the partners on this route, and CGTN’s Dan Williams brings us the story.

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## TaiShang

*China to promote PPP model in Belt and Road Initiative*
(Xinhua) January 16, 2017

China will spread public-private partnerships (PPP) in countries participating in the Belt and Road Initiative, an infrastructure and trade network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes, a senior official has said.

He Lifeng, deputy head of National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), made the remarks Saturday at the 15th China Enterprise Development Forum.

*The NDRC, China's top economic planner, and several other departments, have come up with a working mechanism to boost the PPP model in countries along the routes, according to He, without providing further details.*

*He said the PPP model would help facilitate the progress of projects as it broadens financing channels for companies.*

*Innovative financing models are necessary since some projects under the Belt and Road Initiative require large investments with long payback periods, He said.*

PPPs have existed in China since the 1980s, but the adoption of the financing mode had been slow until China released two PPP guidelines in 2014.

In China, PPP project operators are encouraged to directly solicit money from the capital market, and social security funds and insurance premiums are allowed to invest in these projects.

The Belt and Road Initiative, also known as the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, was put forward by China in 2013.

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## onebyone

New Silk Road? 1st China-London freight train arrives






The first direct freight train service from China to the United Kingdom arrives at a rail freight terminal in Barking, east London, Wednesday Jan. 18, 2017. Some 34 containers packed with mainly clothes and other high street goods completed the 7,456-mile (11,999km) journey in 18 days. (Stefan Rousseau/PA via AP) (The Associated Press)

LONDON – The first direct freight train service from China to London has arrived.

The 18-day trip saw dozens of containers packed mainly with clothes transported from the city of Yiwu in eastern China to Barking in east London, via Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland and western Europe.

The train entered Britain from France through the Channel Tunnel, completing a 7,456-mile (11,999 km) journey.

The service is faster than sending goods by sea. Weekly trains will initially be run to assess demand.

China Railway already has freight services to European destinations including Madrid and Hamburg. They are part of efforts to revive the fabled Silk Road trading routes to the West.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/18/new-silk-road-1st-china-london-freight-train-arrives.html

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## ahojunk

_This is news to me. I didn't know that "health" could also be part of the Silk Road._

========
*China, WHO to build 'healthy' Silk Road*
2017-01-19 08:53 Xinhua Editor:Xu Shanshan






_Chinese President Xi Jinping (L) meets with World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Margaret Chan in Geneva, Switzerland, Jan. 18, 2017. (Xinhua/Li Xueren)_

China and the World Health Organization (WHO) pledged here Wednesday to step up health cooperation under the framework of the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative.

A memorandum of understanding in this regard was signed between the two sides at the WHO headquarters in Geneva, witnessed by visiting Chinese President Xi Jinping and WHO Director-General Margaret Chan.

"China welcomes the WHO's active participation in the construction of the Belt and Road, and of a 'healthy' Silk Road," Xi said during a meeting with Chan.

Chan echoed Xi's remarks, saying that the WHO is willing to enhance cooperation with China under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative, amid efforts to improve the public health in countries along the Belt and Road.

The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by Xi in 2013, refers to the building of the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road. It is aimed at building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient trade routes.






Chinese President Xi Jinping (2nd L) meets with World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Margaret Chan (2nd R) in Geneva, Switzerland, Jan. 18, 2017. (Xinhua/Wu Xiaoling)

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## ahojunk

*First freight train from China to London completes maiden journey*
2017-01-19 11:15 China Daily _Editor: Feng Shuang_

A train traveling all the way from Yiwu on China's east coast arrived in London's Barking station on Wednesday afternoon, becoming the first direct freight train to link the UK and China, crossing the deserts, fields and mountains of Eurasia and ducking under the English channel on its epic 18-day, 12,451 km journey.

Diplomats, transport executives and members of the international media assembled to watch the China-Europe Block Train travel the last few hundred meters of the new Yiwu-London line and pull into Barking's cargo terminal on schedule at 1 pm.

"This is the latest practical outcome of China-UK cooperation on the Belt and Road Initiative," said Zhu Qin, a minister from the Chinese embassy in the UK. "Since its first journey in 2011, China Railway Express has reached many destinations in Europe and Asia. It has become a tangible link between China and Europe, a symbol of China-Europe cooperation. It has contributed greatly to connectivity in the Eurasian continent, and the economic development of the wider region."

The new service is operated by China's Yiwu Timex Industrial Investment Co, which has been running freight trains twice a week between China, Germany and Spain for more than a year.

The train's engine tugged 68 Twenty-foot Equivalent Unit (TEU) cargo containers bearing 4-million-pounds-worth of goods from Yiwu markets - household wares, clothing, fabric, bags and other small commodities. The train crossed the Chinese border at Alataw Pass, and meandered across Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France, and under the English Channel to reach the UK.

Because of differing gauges on its route, the containers were offloaded several times.

Oscar Lin, manager of the service's UK agent, London-based Onetwothree Logistics, told China Daily the service is currently accepting bookings for the return journey.

Transporting goods by train is not only half as cheap as air transport, it also takes half the time sea shipping does. The train departed in Yiwu on Jan. 1, taking just 18 days to travel 12,451 km - which is roughly the entire coastline of the United Kingdom.

Yiwu is the largest small commodities trading center in the world, and each year produces more than half the world's Christmas decorations. Exports from Yiwu to the UK had a value of 621 million dollars (502 million pounds) in 2015, and 569 million dollars (461 million pounds) from January-November 2016, representing a 10 percent increase for the same period the year before.

Rajesh Agrawal, London's deputy mayor for business, said: "The arrival of the first freight train from China shows that London is a leading destination for Chinese businesses, offering firms access to markets, expertise and capital, as well as an entry point to the West."

The new service falls in line with China's Belt and Road international development strategy is an initiative proposed by President Xi Jinping in 2013 that focuses on connectivity and cooperation among countries geographically close to China. United Kingdom has expressed its desire to be an active partner on the initiative.

Last year Lord Sassoon, a Conservative peer with extensive Chinese business links, presented Xi with the China-Britain Business Council's report on the Belt and Road Initiative, outlining several areas in which UK companies were collaborating on infrastructure and energy projects along the trade route.

.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> _This is news to me. I didn't know that "health" could also be part of the Silk Road._
> 
> ========
> *China, WHO to build 'healthy' Silk Road*
> 2017-01-19 08:53 Xinhua Editor:Xu Shanshan
> 
> View attachment 369585
> 
> _Chinese President Xi Jinping (L) meets with World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Margaret Chan in Geneva, Switzerland, Jan. 18, 2017. (Xinhua/Li Xueren)_
> 
> China and the World Health Organization (WHO) pledged here Wednesday to step up health cooperation under the framework of the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative.
> 
> A memorandum of understanding in this regard was signed between the two sides at the WHO headquarters in Geneva, witnessed by visiting Chinese President Xi Jinping and WHO Director-General Margaret Chan.
> 
> "China welcomes the WHO's active participation in the construction of the Belt and Road, and of a 'healthy' Silk Road," Xi said during a meeting with Chan.
> 
> Chan echoed Xi's remarks, saying that the WHO is willing to enhance cooperation with China under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative, amid efforts to improve the public health in countries along the Belt and Road.
> 
> The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by Xi in 2013, refers to the building of the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road. It is aimed at building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient trade routes.
> 
> 
> View attachment 369586
> 
> Chinese President Xi Jinping (2nd L) meets with World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Margaret Chan (2nd R) in Geneva, Switzerland, Jan. 18, 2017. (Xinhua/Wu Xiaoling)



Indeed an interesting dimension to add to the New Silk Road scheme. Then we may anticipate more dimensions to be added from culture and education to health and energy security.

I think, in the end, what OBOR intends to achieve is really create a complete new globalization. The old one served its purpose; as Gramsci said (I paraphrase), the old is dying, the new has yet to born (Gramsci said 'cannot be born').

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## TaiShang

*Towards a stable global order*

(People's Daily Online) 13:20, January 19, 2017

_Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif, Chief Minister of Punjab Province, Pakistan. [Courtesy of Pakistan Embassy in China]_

At the onset of 2017, the world is exposed to far graver threats to its peace, stability and security than was the case in the preceding year. With transformative changes sweeping through the United States, Europe and greater Middle East, the role of the global institutions responsible for conflict management and resolution has increased manifold.

However, a more strident view on the mushroom growth and complexity of conflicts around the world has questioned the effectiveness and relevance of the international governance architecture, stating that a manifest lack of commitment to the ideals and principles of the UN Charter explains why the world is adrift chased doggedly by chaos and turbulence.

There are serious concerns on the uncertain direction the world has taken having the potential to deepen crises in different parts of the world. The interconnected nature of these challenges becomes all the more perilous when we observe that the values and notions that have founded the globalized order are under severe attack and running the risk of unraveling in the absence of a counter-narrative.

Amid concerns and apprehensions about the future of international order, Chinese President Xi Jinping has come to represent the aspirations of the world community. His call for a participatory and broad-based governance model to regulate the world affairs has found ready listeners.

*As a statesman, President Xi Jinping has had his finger on the pulse of the people when he says that reform of the existing global governance system and mechanism is necessary in view of the evolution the world landscape and major transnational challenges are undergoing.* His advocacy of a shared approach on the part of the world community is premised on employing innovation to revamp the existing system in an attempt to build more ‘equitable, just and effective architecture of global governance’, one which meets the aspirations of the people.

Two initiatives of President Xi need to be talked about here that show that China is taking practical steps to set up a model of development that benefits not just her but also builds win-win partnerships aimed at distributing the fruits of prosperity.

*The establishment of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) represents China’s response to the growing needs of the Asian communities for infrastructure development.* This initiative is in line with China’s declared aim of making greater contribution to international development endeavors, for the Chinese are convinced that much of their progress owes itself to international cooperation. AIIB will play the leadership role in the Asian continent in terms of provision of funds for infrastructure development. This role is all the more critical when seen in the context of likely funding deficit to the tune of US$800 billion during the decade of 2010-2020 as per projection of the World Bank and Asian Development Bank.

*The second initiative of President Xi Jinping is his ‘Belt and Road’ vision that has the potential to redefine global geopolitics by making ‘shared fruits of economy and trade’ the pivot of the whole dynamic concept*. This initiative that proposes six corridors including the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor will eventually connect 65 plus countries through air, road, and sea routes thereby resulting in increased trade flows to the tune of US$2.5 trillion according to one estimate.

The Belt and Road Initiative is in line with the Chinese President’s vision of ‘building a community of shared interests, destiny and responsibility.’ It is a part of China’s grand strategy of deepening reform and opening-up. The ideas of win-win partnership that President Xi has espoused at every level whether it is UN General Assembly’s 70th Session in New York, G20 Hangzhou Summit in China, or 8th BRICS Summit in India, are defined by peace, inclusiveness and prosperity.

The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, which is a flagship project of the Belt and Road Initiative, is undergoing robust implementation at the moment. The projects of worth US$30 billion are being implemented. Eight industrial zones to bet set up in all the provinces of Pakistan will create investment and employment opportunities. With a major chunk of the CPEC investment i.e. US$34 billion earmarked for energy sector projects, Pakistan’s GDP will be strengthened by 2 percent straightaway on their completion.

The 13th of November 2016 will do down in history as an epoch-making day when the Prime Minister of Pakistan, flanked by top civil and military leadership of the country, inaugurated the Pilot Trade Project at a prestigious ceremony at Gwadar city. The operationalization of the Gwadar port, which is the centerpiece of the CPEC, is the best news to come in recent months. The start of the trade activity represents the realization of a cherished dream and opening of a new era of peace and development for Pakistan, South and Central Asia, and Gulf regions.

The fact that the cargo containers used the overland western route during their 3000 km long movement from Kashgar to Gwadar sends multiple messages. It proves that Pakistan is a peaceful country and the CPEC route has been fully secured, thanks to elaborate security arrangements made by the government of Pakistan. The way people showed their warmth and excitement as the caravans passed through different regions shows the popular ownership of the CPEC project.

I would take the opportunity to thank the Chinese leadership particularly President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang for their highly dynamic and proactive role in the success of the whole endeavor. The opening of Gwadar port for international trade is the result of unity of thought and close coordination between our two governments.

The successful implementation of the Belt and Road Initiative would help deepen regional economic integration, boost cross-border trade and financial flows between Eurasian countries and the outside world, and further entrench patterns of trade, investment, and infrastructure. The formal start of trade activity at the Gwadar port represents a landmark event in this regard.

In a world driven by various conflicts and hardcore rivalries, China is a voice of sanity that stands for collaborative efforts to negotiate the current set of challenges. The rise of China as the second largest economy and paramount military power is a lesson in how strong leadership commitment and clarity of purpose backed by amazing energy of the leadership can work wonders in a short span of a few decades.

The Chinese model of development that focuses on continuous process of internal reform, consolidation of gains, rule of law and peaceful coexistence with neighbors is holistic, containing important lessons for its friends. China has successfully bridged the North-South gap by championing the causes of the developing world at every forum.

In Pakistan, we continue to be inspired by spectacular accomplishments China has made under the leadership of President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang. The way Beijing has lifted people out of acute poverty by providing them with reasonable standard of living is a practical manifestation of the China Dream, an idea that is changing lives for the better.

As old global order faces threats of extinction, it is satisfying that the new world order with Chinese characteristics of peace and development is there to augment or better still replace it.

_The writer is Chief Minister of Punjab Province in Pakistan._

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## LowPost

Talking about China and globalisation, I've seen a rather unique group of China bashers emerge recently. To be precise, a group of conspiracy theorists that are of the opinion that China spearheading globalisation in place of the declining US is testament to 中国 being part of the Anglo-Zionist network/NWO. In my book, one fundamental flaw in this assumption is the fact they are conflating the Chinese definition of globalisation with its Anglo-Zionist counterpart.

In China's version, agreements are made with virtually every country on this planet on both an economic and political level to enhance trust and the standard of living in the countries China is cooperating with. This provides China with a larger pool of customers for its products given the fact that the US-led West won't be able to satisfy the demands of said countries for much longer.

What the Anglo-Zionists understand under globalisation is the exact opposite, i.e. to subjugate other nations using either economic, political or military force, thus essentially paving the way for a world run by a small number of (mostly US) elites.


These are my thoughts in a nutshell as I do not have the time at the moment to elaborate these further. What is your view, @TaiShang and @Shotgunner51?

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## Shotgunner51

Arryn said:


> Talking about China and globalism, I've seen a rather unique group of China bashers emerge recently. To be precise, a group of conspiracy theorists that are of the opinion that China spearheading globalism in place of the declining US is testament to 中国 being part of the Anglo-Zionist network/NWO. In my book, one fundamental flaw in this assumption is the fact they are conflating the Chinese definition of globalism with its Anglo-Zionist counterpart.
> 
> In China's version, agreements are made with virtually every country on this planet on both an economic and political level to enhance trust and the standard of living in the countries China is cooperating with. This provides China with a larger pool of customers for its products given the fact that the US-led West won't be able to satisfy the demands of said countries for much longer.
> 
> What the Anglo-Zionists understand under globalism is the exact opposite, i.e. to subjugate other nations using either economic, political or military force, thus essentially paving the way for a world run by a small number of (mostly US) elites.
> 
> Just some quick and random thoughts, sorry they're a bit messy, let's continue when free!
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts in a nutshell as I do not have the time at the moment to elaborate these further. What is your view, @TaiShang and @Shotgunner51?




Hey long time no see!

If there is any Anglo-Zionist network, talks of China being part of it is just utter bull crap, let's not forget China is run by communists who emerge from grassroots, who were ideologically anti-capitalist only one to two generations ago. Moreover, there isn't even any slightest cultural, language, family or whatever historic links between the two groups. In Japan there are Keiretsu, in South Korea there are Chaebol, in China if there's anything similar, then it could only be the communist party.

On globalism, it's nothing mysterious, in plain language it just means doing business wherever possible, peacefully. Han dynasty did that by horses, Ming Dynasty did that by ships, nowadays we do that with container vessels and cargo planes, for millennium it's always basic human instinct to profit. But there was a violent version once upon a time, it's called colonialism, an European model. Back to present days, we do business just like centuries ago, the key difference is that now there is an "universal" currency (credits) that every sellers accept as payment, some weird things do happen say its value seems infinite large, but as mentioned above, China is not part of whatever gang that creates it, it's an entirely American-driven thing.

When we sell something, naturally we want to get paid. In fact getting paid is the ultimate objective, selling is just a mean, don't mix things up. When one market is already seriously indebted, and still constantly writing new IOU as payment, what to do? Move on, look for new markets in every possible place on this globe. In that sense, yes, of course China must embrace globalism.

Just some random thoughts not well organized, let's continue when free!

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## ChineseTiger1986

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Globalization sucks for countries that are not competitive.
> 
> When you're not competitive, you prefer not to compete. Down that road lies communist-style stagnation.



China right now is the competitive communist, while those anti-globalization armies are mainly right-wing fascists.

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## terranMarine

Was it not the Americans who kicked the door open at Japan's gate demanding for globalization? Now America under Trump wants protectionism, locked inside a house. America first, America first ....  It appears Trump wants to copy feudal Japan's imprisonment policy now or perhaps the Great Wall of China if the wall is ever gonna come separating US and Mexico

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## kuge

what of any impact to the american major direct-sale, multi-level, networking marketing companies ?

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## eldamar

TaiShang said:


> If I were the US, I would be concerned the most if China really began to act just as the US acted before.
> 
> During the early oil discovery period in the Middle East, the US utilized every diplomacy instruments, including military, to protect and promote their oil companies.
> 
> The US also used tariff and non-tariff barriers very aggressively to protect home industries. Some even argue that the US grew stronger because of trade barriers.
> 
> But, they have kept accusing China for its efforts to protect nascent domestic industries through some government support and protection.
> 
> They have kept accusing China for putting trade barriers although China is the second largest importer in the world.
> 
> I just hope (and anticipate) that China won't make an ideology out of globalization or free market concepts into which it would trap itself. Rather, China needs to pragmatically utilize these theories and offer as much inclusive and common opportunities as possible to ensure comprehensive development.
> 
> https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-trade-history



The thing is US is keen on spreading its ideology as the champion of human rights and democracy, along with artificially keeping the value of the dollar afloat to sustain its treasury, while China is only interested in securing trade routes and markets for its manufactured goods exports and raw materials imports with no desire/interest to spread it's political ideas globally.

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## Jlaw

Shotgunner51 said:


> Hey long time no see!
> 
> If there is any Anglo-Zionist network, talks of China being part of it is just utter bull crap, let's not forget China is run by communists who emerge from grassroots, who were ideologically anti-capitalist only one to two generations ago. Moreover, there isn't even any slightest cultural, language, family or whatever historic links between the two groups. In Japan there are Keiretsu, in South Korea there are Chaebol, in China if there's anything similar, then it could only be the communist party.
> 
> On globalism, it's nothing mysterious, in plain language it just means doing business wherever possible, peacefully. Han dynasty did that by horses, Ming Dynasty did that by ships, nowadays we do that with container vessels and cargo planes, for millennium it's always basic human instinct to profit. But there was a violent version once upon a time, it's called colonialism, an European model. Back to present days, we do business just like centuries ago, the key difference is that now there is an "universal" currency (credits) that every sellers accept as payment, some weird things do happen say its value seems infinite large, but as mentioned above, China is not part of whatever gang that creates it, it's an entirely American-driven thing.
> 
> When we sell something, naturally we want to get paid. In fact getting paid is the ultimate objective, selling is just a mean, don't mix things up. When one market is already seriously indebted, and still constantly writing new IOU as payment, what to do? Move on, look for new markets in every possible place on this globe. In that sense, yes, of course China must embrace globalism.
> 
> Just some random thoughts not well organized, let's continue when free!


Well put bro. Westerners thinking always about the 0 sum game. Never about win-win. Anglo elites or NWO gang will never allow China to be part of their group with the same status. In fact I would say China and Russia to an extent is ruining their NWO objectives to control the world's resources.

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## shadows888

Jlaw said:


> Well put bro. Westerners thinking always about the 0 sum game. Never about win-win. Anglo elites or NWO gang will never allow China to be part of their group with the same status. In fact I would say China and Russia to an extent is ruining their NWO objectives to control the world's resources.



More like they are just shooting themselves in the foot with Brexit and Trump.

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## LowPost

Shotgunner51 said:


> Hey long time no see!
> 
> If there is any Anglo-Zionist network, talks of China being part of it is just utter bull crap, let's not forget China is run by communists who emerge from grassroots, who were ideologically anti-capitalist only one to two generations ago. Moreover, there isn't even any slightest cultural, language, family or whatever historic links between the two groups. In Japan there are Keiretsu, in South Korea there are Chaebol, in China if there's anything similar, then it could only be the communist party.
> 
> On globalism, it's nothing mysterious, in plain language it just means doing business wherever possible, peacefully. Han dynasty did that by horses, Ming Dynasty did that by ships, nowadays we do that with container vessels and cargo planes, for millennium it's always basic human instinct to profit. But there was a violent version once upon a time, it's called colonialism, an European model. Back to present days, we do business just like centuries ago, the key difference is that now there is an "universal" currency (credits) that every sellers accept as payment, some weird things do happen say its value seems infinite large, but as mentioned above, China is not part of whatever gang that creates it, it's an entirely American-driven thing.
> 
> When we sell something, naturally we want to get paid. In fact getting paid is the ultimate objective, selling is just a mean, don't mix things up. When one market is already seriously indebted, and still constantly writing new IOU as payment, what to do? Move on, look for new markets in every possible place on this globe. In that sense, yes, of course China must embrace globalism.
> 
> Just some random thoughts not well organized, let's continue when free!



Thanks for your sentiment. I actually meant globalisation, not globalism, apologies for confusing these two terms. 

Whilst @TaiShang calls the US a neo-fascist regime which is spreading chaos all over the globe, I am using the term AngloZionist (courtesy to a blogger called The Saker) which I think is a more accurate term to describe the current world order we live in. In other words, I am not blaming a state per se for the destruction in e. g. Syria and Ukraine and the spread of anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda, but rather a network of individuals and groups, which includes Soros, the Zionist lobby, neocon thinktanks, the US MIC, MNCs, hostile NGOs, US secret services etc. 

@TaiShang should be well-versed in that topic.

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## TaiShang

Arryn said:


> Talking about China and globalisation, I've seen a rather unique group of China bashers emerge recently. To be precise, a group of conspiracy theorists that are of the opinion that China spearheading globalisation in place of the declining US is testament to 中国 being part of the Anglo-Zionist network/NWO. In my book, one fundamental flaw in this assumption is the fact they are conflating the Chinese definition of globalisation with its Anglo-Zionist counterpart.
> 
> In China's version, agreements are made with virtually every country on this planet on both an economic and political level to enhance trust and the standard of living in the countries China is cooperating with. This provides China with a larger pool of customers for its products given the fact that the US-led West won't be able to satisfy the demands of said countries for much longer.
> 
> What the Anglo-Zionists understand under globalisation is the exact opposite, i.e. to subjugate other nations using either economic, political or military force, thus essentially paving the way for a world run by a small number of (mostly US) elites.
> 
> These are my thoughts in a nutshell as I do not have the time at the moment to elaborate these further. What is your view, @TaiShang and @Shotgunner51?




I like to distinguish Globalization process from Zionist (or Anglo-Zionist) ideology (if any); because, in my view, the former is a more comprehensive concept than the latter. What is smaller cannot contain what is larger unless the larger unit is made fragmented or squeezed into a more compact size.

I understand that globalization is a process that emerges from the very nature of the place we humankind share: It is a round, connected space, a globe, hence, human being has the potential opportunity to make contacts. We may talk about a speeding up of globalization as transportation and communication channels are improved and became available to the mass. However, I think we cannot think of globalization as a project that is entirely under the control of one specific entity. In my view, the potential for globalization has existed from the time immemorial; human activity has triggered it and gave it a certain shape and feel. Every social unit has contributed to it.

As @Shotgunner51 points out, globalization emerged in different forms: It once was the Silk Road extending from the eastern coasts of the Middle Kingdom to today's Afghanistan and all the way to the Middle East and North Africa. As has been argued, for most of its part, China's ancient globalization was one of a "long peace." Peace, especially for the space we now call the Confucius sphere. Later, it took another, more militarist form, which now we call Colonialism. Then, it evolved into imperialism, that is colonialism without direct land management. Interestingly, for each manifestation of globalization, the underlying rationale was economics. China did trade. Britain, France and US waged the Opium Wars because Britain had trade deficit and opium was the only commodity they could sell. US and others wanted ports and trade concessions. Eventually, under imperialism, US waged wars for control over currency and resources.

The emerging globalization is just another manifestation of the same phenomenon. It is led by China and is being constructed economically as we speak. With economic fundamentals are more or less set up (China's manufacturing and logistics prowess, trade penetration etc.), then ideas emerges from material reality. Think of ideas such as new form of major power relations, non-interventionism, etc. Then, China has also begun to set up institutions to put these ideas into practice to test their viability and ensure commonality. If we look at previous globalizations, we will see that those also had the material basis, ideas, and institutions.

This is why China-led emerging globalization is very real. Established powers probably see and understand this. Hence, the emergence of multiple hostile forces to stop globalization to transform itself under China's leadership. The hostile forces may utilize ideologies to disturb emerging trends, especially if they see that materially (militarily) they are disempowered. Commodore Perry cannot pay a visit to the Port of Shanghai.

Military option being closed off, they, once, utilized democracy and human rights as a weapon for submission. The plan largely failed, and, recently, the shortcomings of Western propagated models have become more obvious not only in the target regions, but in the West itself, as well.

It appears that anti-China forces also like to utilize higher conspiracies, those that gain currency, especially among underdeveloped cultures and economies in which people are susceptible to grand ideas with strong religious tone, to harm China-led globalization. Anglo-Zionist argument may be one of them. In my view, Zionism by itself is no different from politicized Christendom or Islamic Khalifa ideology. Admittedly, each use different means (war, finance, terrorism); some disappeared pretty much and some are still alive, and also some seem to be emerging. In my view, Zionism is the one that has been kept alive and sponsored mostly through finance and culture.

Nonetheless, it is rather far-fetched to argue that China has become an extension of this Anglo-Zionist global governance (if we assumed there is such a thing. I tend to ignore such arguments laden with strong religiosity and dark sciences like Kabbalah). China is a rather distinct and separate civilization from the theories emerged in the Middle East. China's cultural and political realms are much less penetrable due to distinct racial and linguistic characteristics, which renders it one of the distinct civilization ecosystems. If Greater China moved to another (smaller) planet, It would form a complete model by itself.

That's why I am confident about China-led globalization and I do not see it being part of the Anglo-Zionist network, or NWO. Globalization being a continuity, it is impossible not to carry on certain older aspects, but, in the end, it has to be globalization with Chinese characteristics. For me, the threat is neo-fascism in which elite (business) interests become state interest and the state powers are used to further elite domination. I see the US government being arrested by such elite conspiracy. There may be Zionist elements in it; but, at the end of the day, it is the material that guides actions.

What, then, the thinking people may need to do is to deconstruct the material basis in history and reconstruct it in a different shape by using right and fair policies. It is a mixture of realism and idealism; definitely not altruism. That's why I argued in my previous post on this thread that China should not be arrested by altruistic political correctness and over-ideologizing of globalization process.

China needs to always keep in view the material basis inherent in history making and historical process.

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## LowPost

Many thanks for your write-up, @TaiShang. In my view, this group of conspiracy theorists I was talking about are particularly of relevance when you regard them against the backdrop of the rise of Donald Trump, who seeks rapprochement with Russia but at the same time is intent on playing hardball with regards to China-US relations, and the rise of patriotic movements all over Europe. Whilst they are critical of political correctness and Killary (which I agree) and some of whom view Russia, not the US, as their natural partner, they do not view China in a favourable light. I cannot exactly explain why but I have a gut feeling these rabid ideologues will be much more dangerous than the laughable likes of Gordon Chang you all are too familiar with from Western MSM ("Ziomedia" in The Saker's parlance). 

Anyone remember Alex Jones, by the way?

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## LowPost

What brought myself to bring this thought into the thread is the latest video by a self-proclaimed German patriot, Russophile and YouTuber called Nikolai Alexander, who runs the YouTube channel Reconquista Germania. In his videos, he talks about geopolitics, history and current social affairs, such as anti-Russian propaganda, the Syrian and Ukrainian crisis, Nikolai Starikov (Russian political writer and pundit), uncontrolled mass immigration in Europe etc.

In his recent video, titled 'The New World Order lures a patriot into a trap', he also deals with China's current role in geopolitics in his personal view of the world. The video is longer than an hour and since he mentions many different aspects in it, e.g. the foundation of the Fed, Trotsky vs. Stalin, American imperialism, WWIII and an imminent global economic collapse, to mention a few, and it takes too much effort and time to summarise all of these, I will only focus on China in my example.

While there are many things I agree with him, he unexpectedly unleashes a barrage of Sinophobic arguments that put Gordon Chang to shame.






"The US has to conquer the entire world, until its time runs out, i.e. overinflation occurs. If the US achieves said target, it can carry out a currency reform, in other words, a controlled collapse, without foreign powers exploiting power vacuums. However, there are two behemoths, which are nearly impossible to break down, obstructing America's road to the finish line: Russia and China."

"There are conspiracy theorists that are of the opinion that these nations have already been incorporated in the power structure of the NWO. This assumption, however, includes one blatant fallacy. If this were to be the case, there would be no need to wait for a merger between Russia, China and the Anglo-American empire whilst eliminating smaller actors such as Iran and to artificially orchestrate conflicts that may lead to another World War."

Sound, then. But the best is yet to come.

"Whilst the impoverishment in the supposedly capitalist West wears on, we watch a supposedly communist China ascend to become a global power."

"Not only does the Chinese economy chalk up record growth, the Chinese also purchase everything worldwide. Resources, real estate, ports and territory. And the West watches without doing anything. Very logical. Germany 'defends its freedom' from some cavemen in the Hindu Kush range, but there's nothing it can do against an unprecedented authoritarian mega empire in the East."

Beating the China threat drum, eh?

"And it becomes even more ludicrous. Not only does the West just watch, it backs this development. It is the West that outsource its industries to China, sells its commodities to the Chinese and clandestinely kept China via TOT and other ploys alive, when it was actually communist and unable to survive on its own"

"TOT" Yes, it's the West that's been allied to the People's Republic of China since Day One, right, Nikolai? It's the West China urgently needed for its survivial during the first years, right? 

"How can you explain that the West has been beating the death out of powers that could threaten them to some extent for centuries, but now cultivates an existential threat, such as the Chinese Empire? Because China is set to be the new base of operations of the NWO. It's not the US that transferred its industries to China, it's the NWO that did so from a sinking ship to another one. It's not the Americans that sold off their, or rather our own gold to China, it's the NWO that did so from the old HQ to their new."

Congratulations, Nikolai. You've promoted the China threat thesis even more effectively that any of the trolls on PDF, and the China hawks from the countries at odds with China.

"This is why the West, which usually spits fire to anyone opposing its doctrine, embarrassingly kowtows to China, its 'future saviour', without any criticism."

"China's human rights violations are far more severe than in Russia, but it's the latter that is always under fire from the Western presstitutes."

Ironically, you did Amnesty International, Freedom House and Human Rights Watch, all of which are tools of the NWO you're going on about for an hour, proud. 

"China, on the other hand, is being praised by the Western press thanks to its economic growth. For example, Die Zeit published an article called 'Are autocrats better at managing a country's economy?' (Shows a screencap of the article)"

Never knew German MSM, CNN, BBC, Fox News, Al Jazeera and Gordon Chang are paid to get their tongues up XJP's bum. Thanks for reminding me.

At the end of the video, he believes the West is headed for a major political and economic crisis, a civil war even that will change its landscape forever, as a new regime is to emerge out of this disaster. And guess who will lead it, in his view?

"Communist and authoritarian China, which somehow evaded this crisis, as well as the power elite, since they are in possession of the gold reserves, the infrastructure, the factories, the ports and the resources. And we, by the way, we will be no more. The civil war and the chaos will be exploited to secretly shut down any forms of opposition. Humanity will finally be done for."

Finally, he calls the viewer to "expose" the plan of said elites to the public and, if possible, run as a patriot in politics to become head of government and, if successful, tell the public the current system will no longer last forever. In his opinion, Brexit has failed, partially due to Farage's resignation from UKIP out of fear and the lack of results afterwards, whereas Trump can ill afford to fail. He also calls them to get out from what he calls a "consumer mentality" and to spread the message conveyed by his video.


Not sure if Nikolai Alexander is for real or I'm reading a dystopic novel, to say the least.  @Götterdämmerung, do you happen to watch his videos?

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## Götterdämmerung

Arryn said:


> What brought myself to bring this thought into the thread is the latest video by a self-proclaimed German patriot, Russophile and YouTuber called Nikolai Alexander, who runs the YouTube channel Reconquista Germania. In his videos, he talks about geopolitics, history and current social affairs, such as anti-Russian propaganda, the Syrian and Ukrainian crisis, Nikolai Starikov (Russian political writer and pundit), uncontrolled mass immigration in Europe etc.
> 
> In his recent video, titled 'The New World Order lures a patriot into a trap', he also deals with China's current role in geopolitics in his personal view of the world. The video is longer than an hour and since he mentions many different aspects in it, e.g. the foundation of the Fed, Trotsky vs. Stalin, American imperialism, WWIII and an imminent global economic collapse, to mention a few, and it takes too much effort and time to summarise all of these, I will only focus on China in my example.
> 
> While there are many things I agree with him, he unexpectedly unleashes a barrage of Sinophobic arguments that put Gordon Chang to shame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The US has to conquer the entire world, until its time runs out, i.e. overinflation occurs. If the US achieves said target, it can carry out a currency reform, in other words, a controlled collapse, without foreign powers exploiting power vacuums. However, there are two behemoths, which are nearly impossible to break down, obstructing America's road to the finish line: Russia and China."
> 
> "There are conspiracy theorists that are of the opinion that these nations have already been incorporated in the power structure of the NWO. This assumption, however, includes one blatant fallacy. If this were to be the case, there would be no need to wait for a merger between Russia, China and the Anglo-American empire whilst eliminating smaller actors such as Iran and to artificially orchestrate conflicts that may lead to another World War."
> 
> Sound, then. But the best is yet to come.
> 
> "Whilst the impoverishment in the supposedly capitalist West wears on, we watch a supposedly communist China ascend to become a global power."
> 
> "Not only does the Chinese economy chalk up record growth, the Chinese also purchase everything worldwide. Resources, real estate, ports and territory. And the West watches without doing anything. Very logical. Germany 'defends its freedom' from some cavemen in the Hindu Kush range, but there's nothing it can do against an unprecedented authoritarian mega empire in the East."
> 
> Beating the China threat drum, eh?
> 
> "And it becomes even more ludicrous. Not only does the West just watch, it backs this development. It is the West that outsource its industries to China, sells its commodities to the Chinese and clandestinely kept China via TOT and other ploys alive, when it was actually communist and unable to survive on its own"
> 
> "TOT" Yes, it's the West that's been allied to the People's Republic of China since Day One, right, Nikolai? It's the West China urgently needed for its survivial during the first years, right?
> 
> "How can you explain that the West has been beating the death out of powers that could threaten them to some extent for centuries, but now cultivates an existential threat, such as the Chinese Empire? Because China is set to be the new base of operations of the NWO. It's not the US that transferred its industries to China, it's the NWO that did so from a sinking ship to another one. It's not the Americans that sold off their, or rather our own gold to China, it's the NWO that did so from the old HQ to their new."
> 
> Congratulations, Nikolai. You've promoted the China threat thesis even more effectively that any of the trolls on PDF, and the China hawks from the countries at odds with China.
> 
> "This is why the West, which usually spits fire to anyone opposing its doctrine, embarrassingly kowtows to China, its 'future saviour', without any criticism."
> 
> "China's human rights violations are far more severe than in Russia, but it's the latter that is always under fire from the Western presstitutes."
> 
> Ironically, you did Amnesty International, Freedom House and Human Rights Watch, all of which are tools of the NWO you're going on about for an hour, proud.
> 
> "China, on the other hand, is being praised by the Western press thanks to its economic growth. For example, Die Zeit published an article called 'Are autocrats better at managing a country's economy?' (Shows a screencap of the article)"
> 
> Never knew German MSM, CNN, BBC, Fox News, Al Jazeera and Gordon Chang are paid to get their tongues up XJP's bum. Thanks for reminding me.
> 
> At the end of the video, he believes the West is headed for a major political and economic crisis, a civil war even that will change its landscape forever, as a new regime is to emerge out of this disaster. And guess who will lead it, in his view?
> 
> "Communist and authoritarian China, which somehow evaded this crisis, as well as the power elite, since they are in possession of the gold reserves, the infrastructure, the factories, the ports and the resources. And we, by the way, we will be no more. The civil war and the chaos will be exploited to secretly shut down any forms of opposition. Humanity will finally be done for."
> 
> Finally, he calls the viewer to "expose" the plan of said elites to the public and, if possible, run as a patriot in politics to become head of government and, if successful, tell the public the current system will no longer last forever. In his opinion, Brexit has failed, partially due to Farage's resignation from UKIP out of fear and the lack of results afterwards, whereas Trump can ill afford to fail. He also calls them to get out from what he calls a "consumer mentality" and to spread the message conveyed by his video.
> 
> 
> Not sure if Nikolai Alexander is for real or I'm reading a dystopic novel, to say the least.  @Götterdämmerung, do you happen to watch his videos?



I haven't wached this clip, but funny enough, today I just had a thought about the cabal and China's ascendency from a historic point of view. As we know, Mao was indeed supported by Rockerfeller. But somehow members of the Chinese elite were smart enough to just play along till Mao died. In fact, Deng also played along so not to cause any suspicion as he know China was too weak to counter the cabal. Deng and the post Mao elite in China know that China can only escape the cabal's design by modernising China and gather enough strength. Now it's too late for the cabal to really influece China but that does not mean that they have given up. There are still many sell outs in the Chinese elite and to identify them is the most difficult task.

Just my two cents.

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## LowPost

Götterdämmerung said:


> I haven't wached this clip, but funny enough, today I just had a thought about the cabal and China's ascendency from a historic point of view. As we know, Mao was indeed supported by Rockerfeller. But somehow members of the Chinese elite were smart enough to just play along till Mao died. In fact, Deng also played along so not to cause any suspicion as he know China was too weak to counter the cabal. Deng and the post Mao elite in China know that China can only escape the cabal's design by modernising China and gather enough strength. Now it's too late for the cabal to really influece China but that does not mean that they have given up. There are still many sell outs in the Chinese elite and to identify them is the most difficult task.
> 
> Just my two cents.



I remember watching a video on YouTube where the narrator showed pictures of Mao meeting members of the cabal you were talking about (can't remember their exact names but they were revealed to be Zionists) as the premise of this video is to prove that revolutions are one method of said cabal to fulfil their aims. 

I'll be damned if this is all true, though.

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## Jlaw

Arryn said:


> What brought myself to bring this thought into the thread is the latest video by a self-proclaimed German patriot, Russophile and YouTuber called Nikolai Alexander, who runs the YouTube channel Reconquista Germania. In his videos, he talks about geopolitics, history and current social affairs, such as anti-Russian propaganda, the Syrian and Ukrainian crisis, Nikolai Starikov (Russian political writer and pundit), uncontrolled mass immigration in Europe etc.
> 
> In his recent video, titled 'The New World Order lures a patriot into a trap', he also deals with China's current role in geopolitics in his personal view of the world. The video is longer than an hour and since he mentions many different aspects in it, e.g. the foundation of the Fed, Trotsky vs. Stalin, American imperialism, WWIII and an imminent global economic collapse, to mention a few, and it takes too much effort and time to summarise all of these, I will only focus on China in my example.
> 
> While there are many things I agree with him, he unexpectedly unleashes a barrage of Sinophobic arguments that put Gordon Chang to shame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The US has to conquer the entire world, until its time runs out, i.e. overinflation occurs. If the US achieves said target, it can carry out a currency reform, in other words, a controlled collapse, without foreign powers exploiting power vacuums. However, there are two behemoths, which are nearly impossible to break down, obstructing America's road to the finish line: Russia and China."
> 
> "There are conspiracy theorists that are of the opinion that these nations have already been incorporated in the power structure of the NWO. This assumption, however, includes one blatant fallacy. If this were to be the case, there would be no need to wait for a merger between Russia, China and the Anglo-American empire whilst eliminating smaller actors such as Iran and to artificially orchestrate conflicts that may lead to another World War."
> 
> Sound, then. But the best is yet to come.
> 
> "Whilst the impoverishment in the supposedly capitalist West wears on, we watch a supposedly communist China ascend to become a global power."
> 
> "Not only does the Chinese economy chalk up record growth, the Chinese also purchase everything worldwide. Resources, real estate, ports and territory. And the West watches without doing anything. Very logical. Germany 'defends its freedom' from some cavemen in the Hindu Kush range, but there's nothing it can do against an unprecedented authoritarian mega empire in the East."
> 
> Beating the China threat drum, eh?
> 
> "And it becomes even more ludicrous. Not only does the West just watch, it backs this development. It is the West that outsource its industries to China, sells its commodities to the Chinese and clandestinely kept China via TOT and other ploys alive, when it was actually communist and unable to survive on its own"
> 
> "TOT" Yes, it's the West that's been allied to the People's Republic of China since Day One, right, Nikolai? It's the West China urgently needed for its survivial during the first years, right?
> 
> "How can you explain that the West has been beating the death out of powers that could threaten them to some extent for centuries, but now cultivates an existential threat, such as the Chinese Empire? Because China is set to be the new base of operations of the NWO. It's not the US that transferred its industries to China, it's the NWO that did so from a sinking ship to another one. It's not the Americans that sold off their, or rather our own gold to China, it's the NWO that did so from the old HQ to their new."
> 
> Congratulations, Nikolai. You've promoted the China threat thesis even more effectively that any of the trolls on PDF, and the China hawks from the countries at odds with China.
> 
> "This is why the West, which usually spits fire to anyone opposing its doctrine, embarrassingly kowtows to China, its 'future saviour', without any criticism."
> 
> "China's human rights violations are far more severe than in Russia, but it's the latter that is always under fire from the Western presstitutes."
> 
> Ironically, you did Amnesty International, Freedom House and Human Rights Watch, all of which are tools of the NWO you're going on about for an hour, proud.
> 
> "China, on the other hand, is being praised by the Western press thanks to its economic growth. For example, Die Zeit published an article called 'Are autocrats better at managing a country's economy?' (Shows a screencap of the article)"
> 
> Never knew German MSM, CNN, BBC, Fox News, Al Jazeera and Gordon Chang are paid to get their tongues up XJP's bum. Thanks for reminding me.
> 
> At the end of the video, he believes the West is headed for a major political and economic crisis, a civil war even that will change its landscape forever, as a new regime is to emerge out of this disaster. And guess who will lead it, in his view?
> 
> "Communist and authoritarian China, which somehow evaded this crisis, as well as the power elite, since they are in possession of the gold reserves, the infrastructure, the factories, the ports and the resources. And we, by the way, we will be no more. The civil war and the chaos will be exploited to secretly shut down any forms of opposition. Humanity will finally be done for."
> 
> Finally, he calls the viewer to "expose" the plan of said elites to the public and, if possible, run as a patriot in politics to become head of government and, if successful, tell the public the current system will no longer last forever. In his opinion, Brexit has failed, partially due to Farage's resignation from UKIP out of fear and the lack of results afterwards, whereas Trump can ill afford to fail. He also calls them to get out from what he calls a "consumer mentality" and to spread the message conveyed by his video.
> 
> 
> Not sure if Nikolai Alexander is for real or I'm reading a dystopic novel, to say the least.  @Götterdämmerung, do you happen to watch his videos?


I believe Soros is part of the NWO. How else can he make billions betting against British pound in the 80s that made him the headline news? Guys like Alex Jones, Nikolai Alexander are NWO tools propagating the NWO.

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## LowPost

I think I need to clarify my nomenclature here. 

As mentioned previously, I borrowed the term "Anglo-Zionist" from a Swiss-born Russian-Dutch blogger named The Saker, who currently lives in the US and writes about various geopolitical events and military-related topics. He is, obviously, pro-Russia but also pro-China, due to his Russian origin and his hatred towards the neocons and the 1% that run what he calls, the "Anglo-Zionist Empire", or "The Empire", for short. As you can tell from the name, it stands for the US, its accomplices and vassal states worldwide. 

Here's a blog post where he explains the reasons for his usage: http://thesaker.is/why-i-use-the-term-anglozionist-and-why-its-important/

Now I used "Anglo-Zionist network" synonymous to the NWO, or the cabal, used by Götterdämmerung. Thinking about it, I find the latter two terms, while being commonly used to describe a small group of power elites you do not hear about often but wield enormous influence on the globe, to be more more fitting than mine.


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## Piotr

Chinese economist Song Hongbing participated in the conference in Sejm (Polish Parlament). He was talking about New Silk Road.
Mr Song talk in English about New Silk Road at 26:43 and 1:26:08

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## ahojunk

*Major projects along the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC)*

From Chongyang Institute of Renmin University of China and Caijing Magazine








********

_Pakistan should be energy sufficient soon. No more power cuts or outages.
Improved transport infrastructure.
Hive of activities at Gwadar port.
CPEC is a game changer for Pakistan._
.

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## ahojunk

*Spotlight: Belt and Road Initiative to reshape world economy, expert says*
2017-01-29 13:03 Xinhua _Editor: Huang Mingrui_

China's Belt and Road Initiative can greatly benefit the world and significantly reshape the global economic development if certain risks are addressed, Jean-Pierre Lehmann, an expert on the international economy, said here Friday at a conference.

The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by China in 2013, aims to build a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient Silk Road trade routes. *It has won support from over 100 countries and international organizations*.

In his speech, Lehmann, who is also the founder of the Evian Group, said the initiative, involving 2.5 trillion U.S. dollars and infusing 1.75 percent surplus into the world's gross domestic product (GDP), could bring huge economic benefits, if some challenges, like the new-asset quality and social unrest in some of the areas within the network, are overcome.

Reminding that "the narrative of the 21st century will be written in Asia by the Asians, and above all, by China as a regional and global power," Lehmann said that "*China is already the main market for many countries, from Brazil to France ... there are Chinese interests across the world, from Seattle to Djibouti.*"

China's global dimension is already obvious, he suggested. "The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), set up in 2016, attracted even the U.S. allies, and Obama failed to prevent them from joining the AIIB. *China already set up 110 economic zones in 50 countries*. In Xi'an (a city in China's northwest), the Summit of the Silk Road gathered 500 participants from 52 countries," he said.

Some 25 percent of the world economic growth comes from China, the expert said, adding that by 2030, China will become a high-income economy with strong harmonious relations and driven by creativity and power of ideas. "*The Chinese economy was made by muscle, but now it's getting more with the brain*, but many do not understand this!"

The world depends on China and China depends on the world, Lehmann said.

Deng Xiaoping, the late Chinese leader who initiated the reform and opening-up policies, said that *China cannot develop in isolation from the rest of the world. Three decades later, the world cannot do without China*, the expert pointed out.

Lehmann also suggested there is strong competition when it comes to doing business with China. "Often, many countries seem to have the same competitive advantages, but you should keep up the discussion and build relations for business with the Chinese."

"In January 2017, the first freight train from Yiwu (in eastern China) to London became operational and Xi Jinping was the first Chinese president to come to Davos, this is staggering! *We already speak of Eurasia*. Things happen at an amazingly rapid pace," Lehmann said.

Whereas "*China's foreign policy could reshape a good part of the world's economy*," Lehmann said we should not conclude from this that China wants to be the hegemon.

.

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## TaiShang

*Wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Jiangsu*

Xinhua, February 6, 2017





A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017.* The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route.* (Xinhua/Li Xiang)




A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)




A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)




A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)




A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)




A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)

***

_Literally speaking, no "self-titled mad dog" can stop the train of development and connectivity._

@Chinese-Dragon , @oprih , @Shotgunner51 , @Jlaw

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## Jlaw

TaiShang said:


> *Wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Jiangsu*
> 
> Xinhua, February 6, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017.* The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route.* (Xinhua/Li Xiang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A train carrying 720 tons of wheat from Kazakhstan arrives in Lianyungang Port in Lianyungang, east China's Jiangsu Province, Feb. 5, 2017. The first batch of wheat from Kazakhstan arrived in Lianyungang port by a cargo train on Sunday and was then shipped to Southeast Asia, opening a new trade route. (Xinhua/Li Xiang)
> 
> ***
> 
> _Literally speaking, no "self-titled mad dog" can stop the train of development and connectivity._
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon , @oprih , @Shotgunner51 , @Jlaw


a precursor to OBOR. Win win for all involved.

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## cirr

Russian food trains arriving in China now a daily occurence.

China has become the largest export market for Russian agricultural produces.

Grains, dairy products including icecream(yummy), frozen seafoods, assortments of candies for the sweet-toothed etc etc.

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## Samlee

A New World Order Is Finally Being Created Under Chinese+Russian Leadership

And I Have A Feeling It's Gonna Be Much Better Than The One Created By US+EU.Based Development and Propserity Not Destruction and Exploitation

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## powastick

Laos train project so slow!

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## Gibbs

*Sirisena backs Xi's Maritime Silk Road project*

Press Trust of India | 
Beijing February 7, 2017 Last Updated at 18:07 IST


Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena today assured full support to his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping's ambitious Maritime Silk Road project, saying it will open new era of relations between the two countries.

In his message to Xi on the* 60th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic ties between the two countries,* Sirisena said Sri Lanka is firmly dedicated to promoting its relations with China.


He said that he believed on the basis of the ancient Maritime Silk Road (MSR), the Belt and Road Initiative will open up a new era for bilateral ties.

MSR has evoked serious concerns in India as it facilitates active presence of China in the strategic Indian Ocean with security implications in India's backyard.

The project is part of One Belt, One Road (OBOR) initiative which also incorporates USD 46 billion China, Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) and the Bangladesh, China, India, Myanmar (BCIM) Economic corridor.

Sirisena's pro-China predecessor Mahinda Rajapaksa was one of the first leaders in the region to come out in full support of MSR.

After his election, Sirisena who took a critical view of Chinese investments and ordered review of various China-aided projects.

With over USD eight billion debt to China, Sirisena government recently allotted 80 per cent share in the Hambantota project to a state-run Chinese firm for 99 years lease on debt swap basis.

His government's plans to allot 15000 acres of land in Hambantota for a Chinese industrial park has evoked strong protests from locals.

Sirisena has also deputed Prime Minister Ranil Wickramasingheto attend the OBOR Summit being organised by Xi in May here.

In his message to Xi, Sirisena said the friendship between Sri Lanka and China dates back to long time.

He said since the two countries established diplomatic relations 60 years ago, their ties have gained constant and sound development, which were later upgraded to a strategic partnership, state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

On the occasion, Xi said that since China and Sri Lanka established diplomatic relations 60 years ago, the bilateral ties, to which he attaches great importance, have stood the test of an ever-changing international situation and achieved a healthy and smooth development.

Xi said he appreciates Sri Lanka for its active participation in the Belt and Road Initiative.

"I am willing to work with you to consolidate political mutual trust, expand mutually beneficial cooperation and deepen people-to-people friendship between the two countries, so as to inject new vigour and vitality into the China-Sri Lanka strategic cooperative partnership featuring sincere mutual assistance and enduring friendship," Xi said.

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang and his Sri Lankan counterpart Ranil Wickremesinghe also exchanged greetings on the occasion.
(REOPENS FGN 22)

Li in his message said that since the two countries set up formal ties in 1957, they have witnessed the sound and stable development of their relations, which have become increasingly stronger.

"In recent years, the two countries, taking the Belt and Road Initiative as an opportunity, have broadened cooperation and their relations enjoy good prospects," Li said.

China is willing to work with Sri Lanka to carry forward the traditional friendship and "deepen win-win cooperation" so that the China-Sri Lanka strategic cooperative partnership can achieve more accomplishments, Li said.

Wickremesinghe said Sri Lanka-China friendship, which has continued for centuries through the ancient maritime silk road, has been further strengthened under the Belt and Road Initiative.

The initiative has also provided opportunities for the two countries to explore new areas of cooperation, the prime minister added.

Sri Lanka will work with China to continuously deepen bilateral ties and broaden cooperation for the benefit of the two peoples, Wickremesinghe said.

The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by China in 2013, aims to build a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient land and maritime trade routes.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...aritime-silk-road-project-117020700853_1.html

@Shotgunner51 @ahojunk @Chinese-Dragon.. Mind you the snide remark because it's a Indian news outlet

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## ahojunk

Gibbs said:


> Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena today assured full support to his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping's ambitious Maritime Silk Road project, saying it will open new era of relations between the two countries.





Gibbs said:


> Sirisena's pro-China predecessor Mahinda Rajapaksa was one of the first leaders in the region to come out in full support of MSR.
> 
> After his election, Sirisena who took a critical view of Chinese investments and ordered review of various China-aided projects.
> 
> With over USD eight billion debt to China, Sirisena government recently allotted 80 per cent share in the Hambantota project to a state-run Chinese firm for 99 years lease on debt swap basis.


@Gibbs 

Sorry for being cynical but the two sides in Sri Lanka were playing politics and use it to their advantage at different times.

Srisena won the elections because of his "opposition" to China's investments. As soon as he won, he suspended the projects on the pretext of re-examining them. I knew it won't last long, it was all a big show. (Sounds very much like what another leader is doing now in his country, LOL).

In the final analysis when faced with reality, they will find that it's still "money talks, bullsh*t walks".

Now, Rajapaksa is doing the same thing as what Srisena did.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> @Gibbs
> 
> Sorry for being cynical but the two sides in Sri Lanka were playing politics and use it to their advantage at different times.
> 
> Srisena won the elections because of his "opposition" to China's investments. As soon as he won, he suspended the projects on the pretext of re-examining them. I knew it won't last long, it was all a big show. (Sounds very much like what another leader is doing now in his country, LOL).
> 
> In the final analysis when faced with reality, they will find that it's still "money talks, bullsh*t walks".
> 
> Now, Rajapaksa is doing the same thing as what Srisena did.



The Belt and Road won't in fact be an easy ride for China to construct. Too many actors and interests are involved. I think this is anticipated.

The worst case, nonetheless, is when domestic infighting is involved. Then, rationality is shelved and emotions and partisanship prevail.

To overcome this, China tries to institutionalize the OBOR, adding some punitive powers in case of serious defection.

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## Gibbs

ahojunk said:


> @Gibbs
> 
> Sorry for being cynical but the two sides in Sri Lanka were playing politics and use it to their advantage at different times.
> 
> Srisena won the elections because of his "opposition" to China's investments. As soon as he won, he suspended the projects on the pretext of re-examining them. I knew it won't last long, it was all a big show. (Sounds very much like what another leader is doing now in his country, LOL).
> 
> In the final analysis when faced with reality, they will find that it's still "money talks, bullsh*t walks".
> 
> Now, Rajapaksa is doing the same thing as what Srisena did.



Agreed

I guess it's a learning curve for the Chinese too, It's not the same when dealing with advanced economies and mature nations with solid national pilocies, and with these third world politicians

China can well do not to put all thier eggs in one basket like they did with the Rajapaksa regime.. I guess lessons learnt for the better

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## TaiShang

*China could beat Japan on bullet train projects in Southeast Asia *

By Chu Daye Source: Global Times Published: 2017/2/8


* Railway rivals *

_Following news that Thailand and Malaysia are set to begin talks on the construction of a 1,500-kilometer high-speed railway (HSR) linking Bangkok in Thailand and Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, Chinese experts said that Chinese HSRs have more merits than their Japanese competitor - called shinkansen. *The Bangkok-Kuala Lumpur railway will be a new addition to the 3,900-kilometer pan-Asia railway network that is already taking shape.* *Chinese experts said it makes more sense for customers to choose a Chinese solution, as owning two systems will backfire in terms of maintenance.*_







A high-speed train enters a railway station in Luoyang, Central China's Henan Province, in September 2016. Photo: CFP






Graphics: GT

Thailand and Malaysia are set to start talks on the construction of a high-speed railway (HSR) between their capitals, Japanese media reported on Monday.

Arkhom Termpittayapaisiht, Thailand's transport minister, said discussions will cover which purveyors of high-speed rail expertise will be involved in the project, according to a report in the Nikkei Asian Review. *They could be "China or Japan" or "China and Japan," though the Thai minister said Malaysia seems to favor China.*

China will jump at the chance if Thailand and Malaysia ask for help with the planned HSR project, the report said. Japan is also eager, setting the stage for a battle between the two countries.

*The pan-Asia railway network is tied into China's "One Belt and One Road" (B&R) initiative. *Formally called the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, the B&R initiative was proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping in 2013 to boost connectivity and trade among Asia, Europe, the Middle East and Africa. The pan-Asia railway's long-term goal is to allow trains to run to Singapore from Kunming, capital of Southwest China's Yunnan Province.

*China's interests
*
Experts contacted by the Global Times took the news in stride, believing that the HSR project between Singapore and Kuala Lumpur is more deserving of attention. They also said that the Chinese railway export package is better than Japan's, which is also good.

"Speaking for myself, I think China should be interested, as *the China-Laos railway, the Laos-Thailand railway, and the Thailand-Malaysia railway are all part of the pan-Asia railway network,"* said Huang Ningshu, vice director of the China-Laos Railway Project. The 417.9-kilometer-railway connects Kunming with Vientiane, capital of Laos.

China will be duly interested in the latest news about the Thailand-Malaysia railway, but its focus will remain on the Singapore-Malaysia railway, which is in a far more advanced stage of development, said Sun Zhang, a railway expert and professor at Shanghai-based Tongji University.

In December 2016, Malaysia and Singapore formalized the details on the Kuala Lumpur-Singapore HSR project. The countries will solicit two international tenders by the end of 2017.

Regarding the Thailand-Malaysia railway, Sun said that Thailand, as the potential buyer, has the right to shop around. 

Given that customer country will try to play China and Japan against each other in tit-for-tat competition to get the best deal, it behooves the Chinese side to study Southeast Asian customers' needs more carefully and more convincingly demonstrate its advantages, noted Sun.

"For the Singapore-Kuala Lumpur HSR, it has to compete with a mature commercial aviation market that has as many as 45 flights a day between the two cities," Sun told the Global Times on Tuesday.

"So the HSR in this section of the pan-Asia railway has to run at a speed of 350 kilometers per hour to be competitive. Faster trains cost more to operate, so we need to show our customer that we can deliver that speed at a reasonable cost," Sun said.

Sun said Japan will find it difficult to do so.

On other sections, like the Thailand-Malaysia railway, speed is less of an issue because there are not as many flights between the two countries. Sun said the managers of the project will like a low-cost package for a railway line that runs at 250 kilometers per hour.

"We needs to study these matters thoroughly to make sure that what we offer is accurately aligned with our customer's need," Sun said.

Japan's shinkansen bullet train technology is already running in the island of Taiwan, and Japan has also signed deals in India and Thailand.

In 2015, however, Japan lost out to China for the Jakarta-Bandung HSR project in Indonesia.

Currently Thailand is planning a shinkansen project between Bangkok and Chiang Mai and a Sino-Thai HSR project linking the Laotian border.

*Buyer's interests
*
For Thailand, a country with somewhat limited finances, having its HSR to be provided by two countries with two different systems means it has to be prepared to pay extra for future maintenance, such as two sets of spare parts, repair services and training for employees, Sun said.

Such maintenance stretches a long time span because it has to cover the entire life span of the purchased products, Sun claimed. 

That is 30 years for the rolling stock, 60 years for the railway bridges and 100 years for tunnels, noted Sun.

*Experts also pointed out that Japan, being a cluster of islands of limited size, does not have China's experience at either operating a huge HSR network or building in complex terrain such as rain forest. China's high-speed trains have proved themselves in its southwestern provinces, which share a similar geography with Southeast Asia.*

China built the world's largest high-speed rail network in less than a decade. 

As of the end of 2016, China operated 20,000 kilometers of HSR track, or 65 percent of the world's total, according to media reports.

*"China operates its HSRs across six climate zones and five time zones. Japan has no such experience," said Jia Limin, a professor at Beijing Jiaotong University.* 

Jia, a leading expert in HSRs, briefed Chinese President Xi Jinping on the technological strengths of Chinese HSRs in June 2016, according to media reports.

"As a late starter, China's high-speed railways utilize newer and more advanced technologies," Jia told the Global Times on Tuesday. "The Chinese technologies also come from a more diversified background, having absorbed both European and Japanese technologies. More importantly, these technologies were proven in mass application, whereas many of Japan's newest technologies have not been proven in actual use." 

Experts said the world is big enough for China and Japan to both export their HSR technologies. But any country that builds two HSR systems, one Chinese and one Japanese, will face practical problems.

*Unlike China, Japan cannot be physically connected to these countries once the railway is built, denying its user of some practical functions from the connectivity, Sun said.*

"When rolling stock needs an upgrade - which they will need to do in their long life cycle - they can be actually driven back to China into a Chinese plant for a speedy upgrade at a reasonable cost," noted Sun. "If the rolling stock is made in Japan, however, the customer country has to do the upgrade on its own in plants that won't need to be built if they take the Chinese option."

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> Experts said the world is big enough for China and Japan to both export their HSR technologies. But any country that builds two HSR systems, one Chinese and one Japanese, will face practical problems.


.
As this is the OBOR thread, my suggestion is for China to focus on OBOR countries and leave the non-OBOR countries to Japan, France, Spain or Germany.

Reason being, China has an advantage in funding projects in OBOR participating countries.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> .
> As this is the OBOR thread, my suggestion is for China to focus on OBOR countries and leave the non-OBOR countries to Japan, France, Spain or Germany.
> 
> Reason being, China has an advantage in funding projects in OBOR participating countries.



But that would practically mean that Japan be kept from SEA, Central Asia, Eastern and Western Europe, and the Middle East markets.

What remains is the Americas and Africa.

But, in any case, customers really need to make a choice; China-Japan combination may not work well because of inherent compatibility issues.

I am certain of such a likelihood because Taiwan has been experiencing the problems of outsourcing the metro to Japan and Germany. For this reason, almost for three years the Taipei-Taoyuan metro line will come online.

In Mainland China, this would not take no more than several months to complete and become operational.

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## ahojunk

TaiShang said:


> But that would practically mean that Japan be kept from SEA, Central Asia, Eastern and Western Europe, and the Middle East markets.
> 
> What remains is the Americas and Africa.
> 
> But, in any case, customers really need to make a choice; China-Japan combination may not work well because of inherent compatibility issues.
> 
> I am certain of such a likelihood because Taiwan has been experiencing the problems of outsourcing the metro to Japan and Germany. For this reason, almost for three years the Taipei-Taoyuan metro line will come online.
> 
> In Mainland China, this would not take no more than several months to complete and become operational.


.
IMHO tenders for the trains/HSR in North America, India and Middle East to be given to Japan, France, Spain and Germany to focus. Western Europe have their home grown HSRs. 

China is better off focusing on OBOR countries, i.e. SEA, Russia, Central Asia, Eastern Europe, Africa and South America. In all these places, China is already involved in the infrastructure and have funding advantages. Technically, South America is not in OBOR.

China should also look at the HSR in Australia too. However, our HSR is the "HSR that runs during elections". After each election, it's back to business as usual. We have been taking about HSR for decades but nothing happens. Sigh! By the way, we want to be in OBOR too.

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## onebyone

*Absurd? China And Kazakhstan's Remote Cross-Border FTZ May Finally Be Set To Boom*
Wade Shepard , CONTRIBUTOR
FEB 9, 2017 @ 12:41 AM 
I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find. 
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.


The first time I visited the International Center for Boundary Cooperation “Khorgos” (ICBC) was in May of 2015. At that time, I found a bi-national free trade zone straddling the China / Kazakhstan border that was basically a Chinese “cheap stuff” market flung out on the Eurasian steppes that was mired in a stagnant position between conception and vitalization. On the Chinese side there were five three-story marketplaces where vendors rented out booths to sell run of the mill, no-brand apparel, car tires, and plastic toys tax-free. On the Kazakh side, the scene was much grimmer: there was nothing but a temporary "nomad" tent selling Kazakh chocolates and imported Georgian wine that was set up next to a burning pile of garbage, and not much else.





_The opening ceremony for the first trade center on the Kazakhstan side of the ICBC free trade zone. Image: ICBC "Khorgos."_

In the spring of 2015 it was easy to be critical of the ICBC. However, I ended my otherwise disparaging article about this visit on a guardedly positive note:

But what needs to be kept in perspective is that not only a new free trade zone is being created here but an entirely new economy. The ICBC is just one part of a multi-faceted development initiative to build an entirely new conurbation of trade, manufacturing, and logistics in a place where it didn't exist before. The adjacent Khorgos Eastern Gate Special Economic Zone and Khorgos Gateway dry port is estimated to attract 30,000 workers and their families, while the new city of Horgos on the Chinese side is being built for 200,000 people. All of these projects have synergy with the ICBC, and such large-scale development everywhere takes not years but decades.

Nearly two years after this first visit, I returned to the ICBC, and I must report that even after a string of political, financial, and corruption mishaps, nobody has given up on the place. As the new Chinese city of Horgos blossoms into an urbanized area of 30-story high-rise towers and a new epicenter for robotics manufacturing, the Khorgos Gateway dry port -- the catalyst for a "new Dubai" -- on the Kazakh side of the border doubles its container volume each year, and the Western Europe-Western China Highway, which passes right through Khorgos on its way from the coast of China to the Baltic Sea at St. Petersburg, gets set to officially open, the ICBC seems to have worked out some of its kinks and kicked development into another gear.





_The new trade center on the Kazakhstan side of the ICBC. Image: Wade Shepard._

I entered the free trade zone from Kazakstan this time, and it became immediately apparent that some major changes had occurred since my last visit. There was a large warehouse of Senko-Lancaster, a Japanese / Kazakh joint venture that’s focused on distributing goods from China to other Silk Road countries that just opened three months ago. Around the corner was a new hotel that started being built last year by a Kazakh developer and a Chinese partner. A little ways away was a large trade center that was being developed via a Turkish / Kazakh JV that was at a mid-point of construction. In the center of it all was a massive new Kazakh / Chinese trade center called Samruk Central Square, which opened for business last summer — the first substantial commercial operation to open on the Kazakh side in the five year history of the ICBC. And, yes, that laughable tent and burning pile of garbage have long been removed.

If anybody knows the story of the ICBC, it’s Ravil Budukov. A Chinese-educated Kazakh, he has been with the project from around the time it first began in December of 2011. He showed up fresh out of college from Suzhou, and eventually rose up to become the chief officer of the International Department on the Kazakh side.

I asked Budukov what had happened, how did Kazakhstan transform their part of the ICBC from having next to nothing to showing glimmers of coming to life in such a short period of time?

“When they started, nobody in the world had any experience with this," he replied simply. "There were no laws and they didn't know how to administer it."

There is nowhere in the world like the ICBC. It is a bi-national, quasi-extra territorial free trade zone that has its own legal, tax, and immigration regimes. While China has the political nimbleness to quickly restructure its policies and laws to adhere to the ambitions of its national projects, in Kazakhstan this is a little more challenging. But now, Budukov said, the proper administrative procedures and laws have been worked out, and the results are apparent.





_Construction on the Kazakh side of the ICBC. Image: Wade Shepard._

Funding the ICBC was also an issue for Kazakhstan. While the China side had an almost unlimited budget backed by Beijing — with $4 billion already being pumped in with reserves on the way — Kazakhstan was wallowing in the middle of a dire economic crisis. The combination of plunging oil and gas prices, which caused a 40% drop in national revenue, along with the devastated Russian economy and the economic slow-down in China -- two of the country's main trading partners -- left Kazakhstan adrift in a perfect storm of economic calamities. While developing its transportation infrastructure and diversifying its economy with projects such as the ICBC are part of the country’s "path to the future," finding the money for it in the meantime proved challenging. Partially to these ends, every project that is currently in development on the Kazakh side of the ICBC are international joint ventures.

The Chinese side has also grown at a rapid clip since my last visit. In addition to the five large shopping centers, branches of all five of China’s big banks, a large hotel, and a Jiangsu province-sponsored business center that were previously in operation, I saw three more trade centers, a massive exhibition hall, another hotel, and what will soon become the Silk Road Tower — an iconic 300-meter-high observation tower — that were all at various stages of construction.





_The new museum on the Chinese side of the ICBC that is reputedly set to open soon. Image: Wade Shepard_.

But what I found most interesting was the museum that was recently built next to the construction site for the tower, which I was told would open after the Chinese New Year holiday.

When the ICBC was announced it was not only marketed as a cross-border, tax-free commercial zone, but as a hub for entertainment and inter-cultural exchange. It was to be a place where merchants and travelers from across China, Central Asia, Russia, Turkey, and Europe could meet in the middle and stay for 30 days visa-free to dine on each other’s cuisine and share each other’s entertainment, along with buying each other's products. The master plan called for hotels, restaurants, museums, amusement parks, an anthropological center, casinos, spas, and a university for foreign languages. It was to become a modern _caravanserai_, a vibrant international hub where all of the countries of the revived Silk Road could join together. Such “people to people” exchanges have become a central theme of China’s Belt and Road initiative, and at every station along the way where China has a major presence there are not only plans for logistics hubs, manufacturing zones, and warehouses, but cultural, shopping, and entertainment facilities as well.

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## onebyone

“We hope that this center will be the biggest tourist center in the world. Not only Chinese or Kazakh but other countries, cultures, to all come and meet in the middle,” said Kaharman Jazin, the new president of the ICBC.

There is also more of an international presence here in the ICBC than I witnessed before. This place isn’t just meant to be for trade between China and Kazakhstan, but is intended to be a great market that connects China with the entire CIS and potentially even Europe beyond, and this is particular true for the Eurasian Economic Union — the customs area that includes Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus, and Armenia — that the ICBC is on the border of. The next phase of development for this emerging free trade zone consists of expanding its reach out through this region, and Budukov is currently running a traveling road show, going from country to country trying to entice investors to come and set up operations on the doorstep of China.

According to Budukov, 10,000 visitors from China and 3,000 visitors from Kazakhstan are currently coming into the ICBC each day — which is up from the 1,500 daily visitors that were coming at the time of my previous visit.






A duty free shopping center on the Chinese side of the ICBC. Image: Wade Shepard.

Another long-term aim of the ICBC is to become a place where visitors don’t only come to buy more or less utilitarian items at a cheaper price but also the luxury items that are trending throughout Asia. While there are signs advertising the presence of Chanel, Calvin Klein, Clinique, Prada, and Gucci in the ICBC, a visitor would be hard-pressed to find any of these luxury products actually being sold here. I walked through one trade center on the Chinese side that boasted the presence of luxury brands only to find the displays empty. The workers told me that the would be restocked after the Chinese New Year holiday. Maybe.
But even if these luxury products were actually sold here, the import restrictions of both the Eurasian Economic Union and China would hamper their sales volumes. Visitors can only take 50 kilos or 1,500 euros worth of merchandise tax-free per month out of the ICBC and into Kazakhstan. While China has an 8,000 yuan (US$1,250) daily limit. There are reports of a cottage industry that has developed in the nearby Kazakh town of Zharkent, where local high-school and college students carry merchandise out of the ICBC for shoppers who wish to buy more tax-free than the import restrictions allow.

“Do you feel as if this is a major problem limiting the potential success of the ICBC?” I asked both Kaharman and Budukov.

“Yes,” they both replied in unison.

“Is there anything that you can do about it?”

Kaharman just shook his head and smiled. This is an issue that’s even higher than Astana; it goes straight to the heart of the Eurasian Economic Union — straight to Moscow, who hasn't been the biggest fan of the whole ICBC concept, to put it mildly.

This entire stretch of the China / Kazakhstan border region is being cultivated as a massive bi-national conurbation of development -- all of the various projects have synergy with each other and are ultimately rising up in unison. This development zone is a national-level ambition of both China and Kazakhstan, and the political will and funding is there to take it to fruition — perhaps by any means necessary. To repeat an adage that has become popular during China’s decades-long development boom, the ICBC may in fact be "too big to fail," and may potentially become the central market of the entire New Silk Road.

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. Follow by RSS._

http://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...tz-may-finally-be-set-to-boom/2/#7d2166731434

*Here Are 5 Ways China's New Silk Road Is Good For Western Companies*


Alex Capri , 

CONTRIBUTOR

I write about international trade and cross-border business. 

Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.


*TWEET THIS*

Is it realistic for U.S. and other Western firms to expect good business opportunities within the OBOR? This question becomes even more compelling as the public dialog between the U.S. and China grows increasingly hostile and confrontational.





A sign shows the distance in kilometers to various destinations as a freight train transporting containers laden with goods from China, arrives at DB Cargo's London Eurohub rail freight depot in Barking, east London on January 18, 2017, from Yiwu in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang. NIKLAS HALLE'N/AFP/Getty Images.

China’s One-Belt-One-Road initiative is the most ambitious infrastructure project in history. Referred to as "OBOR," this immense network of planned highways, railways, energy grids and port facilities will create economic corridors between 65 countries in Asia, Africa and Europe.

But Beijing's high profile gambit is viewed with suspicion by outsiders. Many foreign observers regard OBOR as the Chinese ruling party's grand design to establish geopolitical hegemony throughout Asia and beyond. To underscore the OBOR initiative, Beijing has also been the chief architect behind two other Sino-centric projects: the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) -- which, if ratified, would become the world’s largest multilateral free trade agreement -- and the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB). 

All of this needs to be put into the context of the latest political drama coming out of Washington. When viewed together with the Trump Administration’s rejection of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP)—as well as the new President’s apparent abdication of responsibility regarding America’s longstanding leadership role in the neoliberal world order— it’s clear that the OBOR initiative could fundamentally change today’s geopolitical landscape and redraw the map of global trade.


Which begs the question: Is it realistic for U.S. and other Western firms to expect good business opportunities within the OBOR? This question becomes even more compelling as the public dialog between the U.S. and China grows increasingly hostile and confrontational.

Even without the complications of deteriorating political relationships, infrastructure projects in emerging markets always present firms with a multitude of uncertainties. And given OBOR’s massive scale, many sceptics think the initiative is unrealistic.
But Beijing has done a masterful job when it comes to big infrastructure projects. China Inc. understands that infrastructure is the backbone of connectivity, and connectivity is the lifeblood of modern day commerce. Even if it doesn’t reach its full potential, OBOR’s connective corridors will redefine regional supply chains, create new markets, and redraw the map of today’s production networks. 

FindTheData | Graphiq
Thus, despite many risks, OBOR presents multinational businesses with historic possibilities.

The challenge for Western companies, therefore, is two-fold: first, they must identify OBOR’s true opportunities; second, they must gauge their tolerance to a wide range of risks.
Identifying OBOR’s Opportunities

Here are five key areas of interest for Western firms.

Capacity Building – OBOR’s massive funding requirements must come from both public institutions and private investors. To date, private investors have stayed away. Chinese state owned banks generally lack transparency and are widely perceived to suffer from the ill effects of corruption and poor management. This creates a window of opportunity for Western professional services firms, particularly those specializing in accountancy, consultancy, banking and insurance. The presence of these firms, as they work with local partners to implement good governance and transparency, will make OBOR more attractive to private banks and investors.

Clean Energy and Sustainable Projects – China’s recent endorsement of the Paris Agreement — and President Xi Jin Ping’s proclamation that China will lead the world in the fight against climate change — will create an opening for foreign firms. Here, Western engineering firms and energy companies can find real opportunities to participate in sustainable projects with Chinese SOEs and local firms. This also provides an opening for Western NGOs, as they work with key stakeholders.

Strategic Value Chains – As new OBOR corridors connect economic zones, Western MNEs will have access to labor pools in Central Asia, Southeast Asia and Africa. The global footwear and wearing apparel industry, in particular, will have opportunities to relocate manufacturing centers and other value-adding activities along OBOR, as wages and other costs escalate in China. These new value chains will provide faster access to key markets in Europe and Asia, given their connectivity to high speed rail networks.


New Markets for Consumer Goods – As OBOR’s functional infrastructure expands, new population clusters will emerge along its main arterials, providing new “local” markets and new consumers. Western brands, from hand phone makers to pharmaceutical companies, should push to capture market share. As customer bases along OBOR grow, Western MNEs — which enjoy high brand value and good reputations — will have the opportunity to reengineer their supply chains and to perform manufacturing closer to their customers.

Faster Transit Times – OBOR will allow faster transit times for cargo. DHL Global Forwarding, one of the world’s largest freight companies, is already routing increasing amounts of freight along the “Belt,” from the city of Lianyungang, China, all the way to Istanbul. Transit times are just 14 days. For MNEs throughout Asia, a new logistical window is opening, offering a variety of new routes, distribution hubs and supply chain networks. As more MNEs route their cargo via OBOR, their legacy logistics providers will be compelled to offer end-to-end services across the OBOR network.

Dealing With OBOR’s Risks

Initially it will not be easy for U.S. and other Western firms to compete in an environment that is heavily influenced by Beijing’s central planners and SOEs. Chinese companies in the construction, banking, steel, high-speed rail and energy sectors will dominate early infrastructure efforts. Local competitors will also present obstacles to foreign firms. And the usual emerging market risks will be ever present: lack of transparency and uniformity within regulatory environments, corruption, macro-economic and financial risks — even supply chain security risks.

Eventually, however, state-sponsored development will have to give way to pragmatic collaboration between Chinese SOEs, local companies and foreign firms. The sheer scale and amount of capital — both monetary and human — needed to create the infrastructure of OBOR will compel all parties to seek the most optimal partnerships. This will have to involve the world’s best-in-class foreign companies.

For now, uncertainty prevails.

Western companies will need to adopt a wait-and-see strategy and hope that Washington and Beijing walk-back their tough rhetoric and find a way to craft a coherent, stable working arrangement. Given today’s geopolitical environment, this is far from guaranteed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexcap...is-good-for-western-companies/2/#3d65b16b1dc4

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## ahojunk

_China is going to give the Belt & Road Initiative a big push this year._

========
Chinese vice premier urges new breakthroughs in Belt and Road development
(Xinhua) 20:45, February 10, 2017

Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli on Friday called for greater progress to be achieved in projects under the Belt and Road Initiative this year.

Significant headway should be achieved in certain principal areas, Zhang told attendees of a work conference on Belt and Road development in 2017.

The vice premier demanded "high-quality" work to ensure that the Belt and Road forum for international cooperation, which will be held in Beijing in May, is a success.

Areas to be developed further include infrastructure connectivity, and trade and investment cooperation along the Belt and Road, Zhang said.

He also said more detailed measures were needed to prevent risks and enhance people-to-people exchanges.

The Belt and Road Initiative, an infrastructure and trade network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes, was first put forward by President Xi Jinping in 2013.

While originating in China, the initiative has delivered benefits well beyond its borders. So far, more than 40 countries and international organizations have signed cooperation agreements with China under the initiative.

The upcoming Belt and Road forum will explore ways to address regional and global economic problems, generate fresh energy for interconnected development, and ensure that the initiative brings greater benefits to people of the countries involved, Xi said in January.

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## 艹艹艹

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1032560.shtml
*China-Pakistan Economic Corridor aims to boost trade between two countries*
By Ma Jingjing Source:Global Times Published: 2017/2/12 20:08:39

*Xinjiang gets taste of South Asian seafood*
_
For the first time, the residents of Northwest China'sXinjiangUyghur Autonomous Region were able to eat seafood imported from Pakistan by container cars through the Khunjerab Pass in January. This successful trial is expected to improve overland trade between China and Pakistan via the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, which accounts for 2 percent of the overall trade between the two countries. Meanwhile, the Xinjiang government has decided to invest more than 170 billion yuan ($24.72 billion) in a road network between China and Pakistan to improve transportation capability. However, experts noted that there remain challenges to the growth of bilateral trade, such as a lack of infrastructure and insufficient consumer demand in western China._





_A ship carrying containers in Gwadar port, Pakistan, in November 2016 Photo: CFP_

The first batch of Indian Ocean seafood shipped by container cars arrived in Northwest China's Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region through the Khunjerab Pass on January 13, marking the first time that Taxkorgan Tajik Autonomous county, Kashgar prefecture, has received imported seafood.

"We imported 7.46 tons of seafood, including prawns, cuttlefish and squid, worth $26,700. It was sold mainly in western China," said Chen Hai'ou, president of Kashgar Mufeng Biotechnology Co.

The frozen seafood was shipped from the port of Karachi in southern Pakistan to the port of Sost in northern Pakistan, and then transported to China via the Karakoram Highway.

The highway, also known as China-Pakistan Friendship Highway, which connects Xinjiang and northern Pakistan, stretches more than 1,000 kilometers across the Karakoram, Himalayas and Hindu Kush mountains.

Chen said that the container cars started from Pakistan in November 2016 and entered the Khunjerab Pass before the Karakoram Highway closed for the winter. The closure lasts from December to April each year.

This trial shipment is meaningful because it illustrates the growth of overland trade between the two countries since the highway was rebuilt and extended in 2013, said Zhou Rong, a senior research fellow at the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at Renmin University of China.

The highway greatly reduced the transnational transportation time.

"It used to take 30 to 40 days to ship goods to Xinjiang [from Pakistan], but we can now receive goods in about 10 days through the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC)," Chen told the Global Times on Wednesday.

It was also 10 percent cheaper than transporting seafood from coastal cities in China, Chen noted.

Chinese Premier Li Keqiang proposed the 3,000-kilometer CPEC, which links Xinjiang and Pakistan's Gwadar port, during his visit to Pakistan in May 2013.

As part of China's "One Belt and One Road" initiative, the project aims to strengthen economic cooperation in transportation, energy and other industries.

*Revitalized trade
*
The first shipment of seafood imported via the overland channel will invigorate bilateral trade and will have a demonstration effect on other companies, said Cao Lei, chief of Khunjerab Pass.

China imports an average of 3.9 million to 4.1 million tons of seafood each year, though a small proportion comes from Pakistan, said Cui He, vice chairman of the China Aquatic Products Processing and Marketing Association. The South Asian country doesn't rank among the top 20 seafood importers to China.

However, given that Pakistan doesn't consume a lot of seafood and its seafood resources remain well preserved, it is likely to boost overland shipments to Xinjiang, Cui told the Global Times on Saturday.

Currently, 98 percent of trade between the two countries is by sea, Cao was quoted as saying in a report of domestic news portal chinanews.com on February 4. Bilateral trade across Khunjerab Pass accounts for the remaining 2 percent.

For their part, Chinese companies will likely increase overland exports of large mechanical equipment and construction materials such as cement and steel to Pakistan as they contract more infrastructure projects under the CPEC, Zhou said.

In addition, the CPEC has made it more convenient for domestic companies to transport goods to Pakistan, where they can arrive in the northern city of Sost, he said. In the past, containers were shipped through the port of Karachi, where they had to go through customs.

Chen is also optimistic about the prospects that the CPEC will revitalize overland trade. "Besides seafood, we will import fruit and other agricultural products in line with domestic needs," he said, noting he is discussing importing fruit with Pakistani companies.

Eddie Wong, CEO of Shenzhen Hezhengyuan Group, the parent company of Kashgar Mufeng Biotechnology Co, told the Global Times on Sunday that the company will continue to import cotton and sugar in the second phase.

Meanwhile, his firm is negotiating with their Pakistani counterparts to export reasonable cost garments to the country.

Meanwhile, Xinjiang will devote a huge amount of funding in 2017 to building up a highway network to further improve transportation between the two countries, the Associated Press of Pakistan reported on Tuesday.

This year, the region will invest 170 billion yuan ($24.72 billion) in building new roads, 8.1 billion yuan into railway construction and 4.8 billion yuan in civil aviation projects, the report said, noting the total will surpass the combined investment in transportation infrastructure from 2011 to 2015.

*Demanding challenges
*
The CPEC is supposed to bring earth-shaking changes to Pakistan's economy, but has yet to do so due to factors including lack of necessary infrastructure and low consumer demand in western China, Zhou said.

For example, an oil and gas pipeline in Pakistan linking the Middle East and China has not been connected, and thus the country can't get oil transit fees, he explained.

Although the Karakoram Highway is expected to boost overland trade between the two neighbors, objective factors make it hard to measure to what extent the corridor will contribute to its bilateral trade.

The highway's width of roughly six to 10 meters, which may not be able to handle enough traffic, and landslides may occur due to the complex topography, Zhou said. Most important of all, the highway is closed during winter, directly limiting the volume of transported goods.

Pakistan's supply level and western China's consumption demand is another problem that needs to be worked out, Cui told the Global Times on Saturday.

To increase bilateral trade, Xinjiang and western China need to boost their demand for goods from South Asia and the Middle East, Zhou noted.

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## 艹艹艹

http://dailytimes.com.pk/features/16-Feb-17/china-pakistan-economic-corridor-an-insight
*China-Pakistan Economic Corridor : An insight





By: Tariq Mushtaq
16-Feb-17
*
The China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) is currently under construction at a cost of $46 billion which is intended to rapidly expand and upgrade Pakistani infrastructure, as well as deepen and broaden economic links between Pakistan and the People's Republic of China.







Infrastructure projects under the aegis of CPEC will span the length and breadth of Pakistan, and will eventually link the Pakistani city of Gwadar in southwestern to China's northwestern autonomous region of Xinjiang via a vast network of highways and railways. Proposed infrastructure projects are worth approximately $11 billion, and will be financed by heavily-subsidized concessionary loans at an interest rate of 1.6% that will be dispersed to the Government of Pakistan by the “Exim Bank of China”- “China Development Bank” and the “Industrial and Commercial Bank of China”.
*
Expected Development:*


The Karakoram Highway between Rawalpindi and the Chinese border will be completely overhauled.

As part of infrastructure 1,100 kilometre long motorways will be constructed between the cities of Karachi and Lahore.

1350 kilometer long motorway will be constructed which will connect all major cities and Chinese border with Gawadar. Presently work to link Gawadar with Quetta by six lane motorway is in progress.

A separate double carriage network will be constructed between Gawadar and all major Cities connecting Gawadar with Chinese Border and Afghan border, which will be only for transportation of containers.

The Karachi–Peshawar main railway line will also be upgraded with twin tracks to allow for train travel up to 160 kilometers per hour.

Pakistan's railway network will also be extended to eventually connect to China's Southern Xinjiang Railway in Kashgar. This track will be laid alongside Karakoram Highway for which Chinese engineers have already started paper work.

A network of pipelines to transport liquefied natural gas and oil will also be laid as part of the project, including a $2.5 billion pipeline between Gawadar and Nawabshah to transport gas from Iran.

At Gawadar a state of the art international airport will be constructed with two separate terminals. One for cargo transportation between Gawadar and China, the second for international flights as a huge number of air transportation is expected through Gawadar international airport.

Plans for a corridor, stretching from the Chinese border to Pakistan's deep water ports on the Arabian Sea, dates back to the 1960s and motivated construction of the Karakoram Highway beginning in 1967. Chinese interest in Pakistan's deep-water harbour at Gawadar had been rekindled by 2000, and in 2002 China began construction at Gawadar port which is still under completion because of political instability in Pakistan. Gawadar Port is deepest in the region. Chabahar port of Iran in approximately 11 meters in depth whereas Gawadar’s depth is much more than this.

*



*

*EXPECTED FINANCIAL GAINS:*


China daily requires six million barrels of oil. Presently its shipment travels 12000 kilometers. If, its shipped through Gawadar the distance is reduced to 3000 kilometers, saving Chinese 20 billion Dollars per annum and Pakistan will get 5 billion dollars against this facility.





​

It is estimated that around 80,000 trucks / Containers per month will travel toward Gawadar Port from China. Against this facility Pakistan will earn another handsome amount in billions of dollars.

It is also estimated that around 100,000 trucks / containers will cross Pakistan to wards Gawadar Port from Central Asian Region and this facility will add good amount in our national exchequer in shape of dollars.

When such a huge network of roads and pipes will be constructed, employment in every field will be required, which will help the country for employing labour, technicians, engineers, management graduates and highly technical personnel.

With such a huge network of roads, railway and pipelines, number of business opportunities will be raised. These opportunities include hotels, pumps, industrial estates, shopping places and much more, which will again be very helpful for employing people and for contribution in the national exchequer.

*
INDIAN UNENTHUSIASTIC ROLE:
*
India and Afghanistan are working jointly to promote Iranian deep sea port of Chabahar against Gawadar Port of Pakistan. This is now an open secret that India is nakedly involved in sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan and to destabilize CPEC project with the active support of Afghan intelligence NDS. Sources added that RAW spy Yadev who is a serving officer in Indian Navy shared certain information during interrogation and such information led to the arrest of a NDS operator who had been living in Pakistan since long for helping terrorists to destabilize areas where CPEC project will run and would connect Gwadar Port to Chinese city of Kashi (Kashgar). These two developments were enough to expose intensive work done by intelligence agencies to make China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) a failure.

Meanwhile, India is trying its best to stop Central Asian states to opt Gwadar Port for their international trade hub as all Central Asia countries are landlocked and they are using mostly Balkan ports and India is luring Central Asia republics to use Chabahar Port of Iran that will be fully operational by December 2016.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi held a tour of the Central Asian Republics (CARs)—Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan in last July and sold the idea of connecting CARs with Chabahar Port through North South Corridor. This Corridor (route) starts from Kandla port of India to Chabahar port of Iran via sea and then moves on towards Central Asia through Iranshar, Zahedan and Mashhad. From Mashhad, it enters to Turkmenistan and crosses Chardzhor and then enters Uzbekistan at Bokhara. It runs from Bokhara to Tashkent and enters Kyrgyzstan via Dzhambul. This routes ends at Almty city of Kazakhstan.

This route will not only be time consuming but also expensive for cargo handlers of Central Asia. Mr. Modi was not very successful to sell this idea because North South Corridor is too long and too expensive option for CARs while Gwadar port of Pakistan is in their proximity (provided peace and security is ensured in Afghanistan as a bed of thorns lies between Pakistan and Central Asia).

Receiving a lukewarm response from Central Asian states during the visit of Mr. Modi, India started work on another option for offering a shorter route to CARs to reach Chabahar port.

Now India has decided to finance a new route that will run in Northern Afghanistan in the proximity of Central Asian borders. India will release a huge amount of over 5 billion rupees for new route that will run which is under consideration, from Heart-Leman-Bala Murghab—Cormach—Maymaneh—Andkhoy—Karamkal—Shaberghan—Aqchach to Mazar Sharif. It may be mentioned that every country of Central Asia is already connected with Mazar Sharif. New road networking will enable Chabahar to connect with other central Asia states while bypassing Turkmenistan and through Afghanistan, minimizing journey and cargo cost for Central Asian states of Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan to reach Chabahar port for international trade.

Development observers believe that Indian investment for uplifting road network to connect Chabahar port with Central Asia through a new road networking looks an attempt to diminish the importance of China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) that can be shortest possible route to connect Central Asian republics with Gawadar Port to enhance Central Asian world trade.

India has already invested over $ 960,000 over Route 606 that is also known as Delaram–Zaranj Highway inside Afghanistan. The length of this route is over 200km. It connects Delaram (border city of Afghanistan) to Zaranj (Capital of Nimruz province of Afghanistan). Construction of this project started in 2005 and road was opened for trade in year 2009.

Financial interests of India, Iran and Afghanistan are knotted in Chabahar port while Pakistan’s interests are connected with CPEC and Gwadar port.

This complex situation narrates the saga of fragile relations of Pakistan with its two important neighbours, Iran and Afghanistan and of course the mechanism how India can use both of them against Pakistan anytime it wishes because economic interests are real foundation of foreign relations in today’s world.

But, one thing is essential and there, that Gawadar being the deepest port in the region has an edge over Chabahar, secondly even if CAR doesn’t attach their trade from Gawadar, China’s trade of oil and its commercial trade through Gawadar makes the project feasible. And, if 50% trade of CAR states is added, the profits will be sky high and Pakistan will earn good profits. So, there seems no fear, what so ever the strategy of Indian government towards CPEC, all we require is, to stand affirm and don’t let anybody to create any sort of disturbance in our country. This, I will request to all the parties and all the leaders.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Chabahar and Gwadar are two different ports, on two different levels for two different reasons.


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## cirr

*Shanxi sends first freight train to Russia*

2017-02-17 10:08

People's Daily Online _Editor: Wang Fan_





(Qiao Dong/People's Daily)

The first China-Europe freight train departed Taiyuan, capital city of of Shanxi province for Lesosibirsk, Russia on Feb. 15. It will transport two large, China-made mine excavators to the Russian city.

Compared to the sea route, the freight method shortens overall transportation time by 20 days; it also effectively avoids sea water erosion to the excavators and losses caused by collision. The train provides a new export channel for enterprises based in Shanxi, which boasted the fastest growth rate in exports and imports in China in 2016.

http://www.ecns.cn/business/2017/02-17/245761.shtml

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## cirr

*山西开出首趟中欧班列 重型挖掘机“远嫁”俄罗斯*

2017-02-16 16:17:21

来源：山西日报

关键字:重工铁路一带一路中国精造

山西日报2月15日报道，15日10时56分，75006/5次中俄班列驶出山西太原中鼎物流园，2台具有我国完全自主知识产权的WK-20型大型矿用挖掘机搭乘班列，驶往俄罗斯列索西比尔斯克。这是山西开出的首趟中欧班列，实现了山西到俄罗斯的重型机械铁路直达运输，不仅运输时间比海运缩短20天左右，而且可以有效避免海水侵蚀、晃动碰撞造成的货物损耗。






*两台“巨无霸”重型挖掘机乘上班列*

2月15日，随着一声汽笛长鸣，满载着太重生产的两台WK-20挖掘机的专列徐徐启动，驶向俄罗斯。

*首列中欧班列由41节车皮组成，车头为粉红色。太原铁路局营销处副处长苏海春说，由于货物太大，除31节铁路敞车车皮外，另有10节集装箱专用车皮装载太重产品，两台“巨无霸”分别装入20个20英尺国际标准集装箱内，再装载在这10节集装箱车皮上。由于体型巨大，两台“巨无霸”被分解为200多个包装件，这些包装件既有重量不足1吨的轻泡件，也有宽度5米左右的超限件，形状极不规则。为让这些部件平稳乘车，太原铁路局与太重集团相关技术人员针对每个包装件定制化设计装载方案，并采取集装箱内加固等方法，保证每一个部件都平稳牢固。而组成专列的车头和车皮，均是从全国铁路系统其他省份的兄弟单位调运而来*。

列车从中鼎物流园始发，经满洲里，开往俄罗斯列索西比尔斯克，全程运行6000公里，其中国内2491公里，国外3509公里。列车将于2月20日抵达满洲里，预计3月初到达列索西比尔斯克。

*时间缩短20天，运费下降20%*

记者了解到，班列运载货物为太重集团生产的WK—20型大型矿用挖掘机，该型挖掘机每台重约800吨，高13.54米，一铲斗就可挖掘矿石20立方米，是名符其实的“巨无霸”。这也是该型挖掘机首次进入俄罗斯市场。“以前也有太重的产品出口俄罗斯，但20立方米的挖掘机，为首次出口。”太原重工矿山设备分公司党委书记马骏介绍，通过中欧班列到俄罗斯列索西比尔斯克，不仅运输时间要比走海运缩短20天，节省20%的运输费用，而且可以有效避免海水侵蚀、晃动碰撞造成的货物损耗，因而成为中俄双方客户的首选运输方式。











事实上，组织运送货物的过程，并不容易。苏海春介绍，由于到站客户不具备接卸3吨以上集装箱的能力，太原铁路局在全国中欧班列开行中首次采用了集装箱与敞车混装的形式，对重量3吨之内、适合装箱的货物采用20只20英尺集装箱装运，其余货物采用敞车装运。又因为中国国铁集装箱与俄罗斯集装箱不能互通，局里紧急协调中铁集装箱太原分公司从周边各省紧急调用俄罗斯集装箱装载，全力满足需求。

马骏介绍，由于“巨无霸”产品有相当一部分为超限件和超重件，远远超过了铁路荷载能力，因此这部分超限件不得不采用公路的运输方式，在多方努力推进下，满洲里海关针对此次运输首次提出了“公路货物在铁路海关监管场所同铁路班列货物一起申报，通关后在海关押运状态下从公路口岸出境”的方案，为出口企业提供了极大的通关便利。此外，正常情况下，货运班列均为标准集装箱班列；而本次班列除了10节集装箱车皮装载20个标准集装箱外，还有31节铁路敞车，堪称前所未有的“混搭班列”。

*挖掘机将在-50℃区域工作*

这趟中欧班列的开行，是太原铁路局服务“一带一路”建设的一次具体实践，更为山西企业走出国门，为“中国制造”走向世界开辟了一条新的更加便捷的通道。

为保证货物及时运到满洲里出关，太原铁路局与太重集团倒排进度、密切协作，按时限、高质量进行装载和调度。中国铁路总公司批准该趟班列按照技术直达进行组织，沿途不改编。

班列自太原启程，途经满洲里，再经贝加尔斯克，中途转为公路运输，货物抵达列索西比尔斯克后，需经过叶尼塞河运往矿区。由于货物过大过重，俄方客户计划采取卡车拉雪橇的方式，从冰面上拖运过河，并且要在3月30日冰河解冻之前，用冰面运输工具从俄罗斯最大河流叶尼塞河的冰面上通过，真可谓铁路、公路、水路三者俱全，最终抵达俄罗斯联邦俄罗斯克拉斯诺亚尔斯克边疆区的列索西比尔斯克站（Лесосибирск）。

望着班列准时驶出，马骏长吁一口气，如释重负。马骏告诉记者，此次货运，组织准备时间最短。算起来，从最初班列的准备工作到正式发车仅用了短短一个半月时间。其间经历了春节假期和春运过程，相关部门和企业在春节期间依然坚守岗位，在汽运、铁路都面临运力紧张的状态下，通过太原铁路局、山西省人民政府口岸办、太原海关、太原国检局等部门通力协作，最终保证班列准时、安全、高效地运行。

几个月后，人们会高兴地看到，这两台“太重牌”挖掘机将会在地处西伯利亚边缘地带、温度在-50℃的俄罗斯极地黄金公司矿区，一展“中国制造”的威力！

http://www.guancha.cn/Project/2017_02_16_394602.shtml

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## MarcsPakistan

cirr said:


> *山西开出首趟中欧班列 重型挖掘机“远嫁”俄罗斯*
> 
> 2017-02-16 16:17:21
> 
> 来源：山西日报
> 
> 关键字:重工铁路一带一路中国精造
> 
> 山西日报2月15日报道，15日10时56分，75006/5次中俄班列驶出山西太原中鼎物流园，2台具有我国完全自主知识产权的WK-20型大型矿用挖掘机搭乘班列，驶往俄罗斯列索西比尔斯克。这是山西开出的首趟中欧班列，实现了山西到俄罗斯的重型机械铁路直达运输，不仅运输时间比海运缩短20天左右，而且可以有效避免海水侵蚀、晃动碰撞造成的货物损耗。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *两台“巨无霸”重型挖掘机乘上班列*
> 
> 2月15日，随着一声汽笛长鸣，满载着太重生产的两台WK-20挖掘机的专列徐徐启动，驶向俄罗斯。
> 
> *首列中欧班列由41节车皮组成，车头为粉红色。太原铁路局营销处副处长苏海春说，由于货物太大，除31节铁路敞车车皮外，另有10节集装箱专用车皮装载太重产品，两台“巨无霸”分别装入20个20英尺国际标准集装箱内，再装载在这10节集装箱车皮上。由于体型巨大，两台“巨无霸”被分解为200多个包装件，这些包装件既有重量不足1吨的轻泡件，也有宽度5米左右的超限件，形状极不规则。为让这些部件平稳乘车，太原铁路局与太重集团相关技术人员针对每个包装件定制化设计装载方案，并采取集装箱内加固等方法，保证每一个部件都平稳牢固。而组成专列的车头和车皮，均是从全国铁路系统其他省份的兄弟单位调运而来*。
> 
> 列车从中鼎物流园始发，经满洲里，开往俄罗斯列索西比尔斯克，全程运行6000公里，其中国内2491公里，国外3509公里。列车将于2月20日抵达满洲里，预计3月初到达列索西比尔斯克。
> 
> *时间缩短20天，运费下降20%*
> 
> 记者了解到，班列运载货物为太重集团生产的WK—20型大型矿用挖掘机，该型挖掘机每台重约800吨，高13.54米，一铲斗就可挖掘矿石20立方米，是名符其实的“巨无霸”。这也是该型挖掘机首次进入俄罗斯市场。“以前也有太重的产品出口俄罗斯，但20立方米的挖掘机，为首次出口。”太原重工矿山设备分公司党委书记马骏介绍，通过中欧班列到俄罗斯列索西比尔斯克，不仅运输时间要比走海运缩短20天，节省20%的运输费用，而且可以有效避免海水侵蚀、晃动碰撞造成的货物损耗，因而成为中俄双方客户的首选运输方式。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 事实上，组织运送货物的过程，并不容易。苏海春介绍，由于到站客户不具备接卸3吨以上集装箱的能力，太原铁路局在全国中欧班列开行中首次采用了集装箱与敞车混装的形式，对重量3吨之内、适合装箱的货物采用20只20英尺集装箱装运，其余货物采用敞车装运。又因为中国国铁集装箱与俄罗斯集装箱不能互通，局里紧急协调中铁集装箱太原分公司从周边各省紧急调用俄罗斯集装箱装载，全力满足需求。
> 
> 马骏介绍，由于“巨无霸”产品有相当一部分为超限件和超重件，远远超过了铁路荷载能力，因此这部分超限件不得不采用公路的运输方式，在多方努力推进下，满洲里海关针对此次运输首次提出了“公路货物在铁路海关监管场所同铁路班列货物一起申报，通关后在海关押运状态下从公路口岸出境”的方案，为出口企业提供了极大的通关便利。此外，正常情况下，货运班列均为标准集装箱班列；而本次班列除了10节集装箱车皮装载20个标准集装箱外，还有31节铁路敞车，堪称前所未有的“混搭班列”。
> 
> *挖掘机将在-50℃区域工作*
> 
> 这趟中欧班列的开行，是太原铁路局服务“一带一路”建设的一次具体实践，更为山西企业走出国门，为“中国制造”走向世界开辟了一条新的更加便捷的通道。
> 
> 为保证货物及时运到满洲里出关，太原铁路局与太重集团倒排进度、密切协作，按时限、高质量进行装载和调度。中国铁路总公司批准该趟班列按照技术直达进行组织，沿途不改编。
> 
> 班列自太原启程，途经满洲里，再经贝加尔斯克，中途转为公路运输，货物抵达列索西比尔斯克后，需经过叶尼塞河运往矿区。由于货物过大过重，俄方客户计划采取卡车拉雪橇的方式，从冰面上拖运过河，并且要在3月30日冰河解冻之前，用冰面运输工具从俄罗斯最大河流叶尼塞河的冰面上通过，真可谓铁路、公路、水路三者俱全，最终抵达俄罗斯联邦俄罗斯克拉斯诺亚尔斯克边疆区的列索西比尔斯克站（Лесосибирск）。
> 
> 望着班列准时驶出，马骏长吁一口气，如释重负。马骏告诉记者，此次货运，组织准备时间最短。算起来，从最初班列的准备工作到正式发车仅用了短短一个半月时间。其间经历了春节假期和春运过程，相关部门和企业在春节期间依然坚守岗位，在汽运、铁路都面临运力紧张的状态下，通过太原铁路局、山西省人民政府口岸办、太原海关、太原国检局等部门通力协作，最终保证班列准时、安全、高效地运行。
> 
> 几个月后，人们会高兴地看到，这两台“太重牌”挖掘机将会在地处西伯利亚边缘地带、温度在-50℃的俄罗斯极地黄金公司矿区，一展“中国制造”的威力！
> 
> http://www.guancha.cn/Project/2017_02_16_394602.shtml


Can u Please translate this into english


----------



## TaiShang

cirr said:


> It will transport two large, China-made mine excavators to the Russian city.



Making Russia great again. Russia is an essential part and parcel of the OBOR scheme. It is likely that Putin joins a major Silk Road summit this year.

China-Central Asia-Russia-Eastern Europe-Western Europe. The new emerging Eurasian supercontinent trade route.

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## rott

I am wondering about the different guages in different countries. What rail gauage is Russia's?

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## TaiShang

rott said:


> I am wondering about the different guages in different countries. What rail gauage is Russia's?



They differ. Hence, the need to transfer the cargo at the China-Russia border and then again at the corresponding border in Eastern Europe.

I think this slows things up but still faster and cheaper than sea transport.

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## AndrewJin

TaiShang said:


> They differ. Hence, the need to transfer the cargo at the China-Russia border and then again at the corresponding border in Eastern Europe.
> 
> I think this slows things up but still faster and cheaper than sea transport.


Yes, even spending quite a lot of time at the border to change trains, still, it is faster.

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## rott

AndrewJin said:


> Yes, even spending quite a lot of time at the border to change trains, still, it is faster.


You're the expert on trains

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## samsara

*Decoding Trump’s pivot to China | Pepe Escobar*






One Belt, One Road, One China: Is the new White House crew changing tack on Beijing? Photo: Reuters

*The pivot to China*​
Trump remains hostage to his own election rhetoric, legacy of past policies. Meantime, Beijing is delivering its strategic vision for a new Pax Sinica​
By Pepe Escobar (2017-02-11)

When President Xi Jinping visited the United Nations in Geneva last month, before his landmark pro-globalization speech in Davos, he said China’s proposition to the world was to “build a community of shared future for mankind and achieve shared and win-win development.”

Then came the astonishing numbers. “In the coming five years, China will import US$8 trillion of goods, attract US$600 billion of foreign investment, make US$750 billion of outbound investment, and Chinese tourists will make 700 million outbound visits.”

For most of the “community of shared future,” it didn’t take long for the implications to sink in.

Then came the threat of a US-China trade war. The possible ending of the One China policy. The threat of a blockade in the South China Sea.

Then came The Letter. From Trump to Xi, sending good wishes to “the Chinese people.” Too little, too late – over a week after the start of the Year of the Rooster. Still, with great tact, the Foreign Ministry in Beijing stressed communication was always on, “led by China’s top diplomat, State Councillor Yang Jiechi, who outranks the foreign minister.”

Then, finally, came The Phone Call. The first time they ever talked. Trump told Xi he plans to respect the One China policy. Game on.

What’s next?

*Exit ‘borders’; enter ‘corridors’*

It’s open to debate whether any of Trump’s China hands – in fact, they are virtually non-existent – have written him a memo laying out the magnitude of what Beijing is trying to accomplish, business-wise. That won’t last long because Trump eventually will wake someone up with a 3am phone call wondering, “How come we’re not part of the action?”

Inbuilt in the New Silk Roads, aka One Belt, One Road, is a new transpolitical concept; territoriality is extrapolated from national borders towards belts and roads – in fact, supply chains. This goes way beyond mere technicalities: supply-chain management; inter-modality; inter-operability; a new approach to logistics; you name it. It’s posing the foundation of a transnational new geoeconomic model, and, if successful in the long run, a new geopolitical model.

The model implies that China is proposing through all these corridors – across the upgraded high-speed Trans-Siberian rail route, across Southeast Asia, across Pakistan – whole new layers to the notion of multinational cooperation; political, economic, financial (as in the role of the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank and the Silk Road Fund). No wonder a group of Chinese researchers recently published a groundbreaking essay in *Monthly Review* titled
_One Belt, One Road: China’s strategy for a new global financial order_.





Riding the iron rooster: Xi is attempting to redraw the global geopolitical map. Photo: Reuters

Add to this the progressive interpolation of OBOR with the Russia-led Eurasian Economic Union. The EEU is fully institutionalized, complete with bureaucratic layers, while OBOR is still a loose experiment in progress. As Xi and Vladimir Putin have stressed, OBOR and EEU are ultimately complementary – and that adds an extra dimension to the Russia-China strategic partnership.

Beijing’s advance across Central Asia is essentially geoeconomic, as an infrastructure provider; Moscow for its part is not paranoid that Beijing harbors political hegemonic designs. The light at the end of the (high-speed rail) tunnel is always Eurasia integration, with regional powers Iran and eventually Turkey also on board for the long haul.

*Time for dialectic hostility*

Klaus Baader, chief Asia-Pacific economist at Societe Generale in Hong Kong, recently told Bloomberg: “How many times did Trump say he would label China a currency manipulator on his first day in office? It was pure rhetoric … Rhetoric that cannot be implemented.”

That does not mean that after the Trump-Xi call all the rhetoric will vanish. The folks in Trump’s internal audience/electoral base have eagerly entertained the desire – or illusion – that they deserve a better distribution of wealth since they’re right at the heart of the “indispensable nation”; and that this may happen mostly at the expense of a China that has profited immensely from globalization. That’s what Trump’s rhetoric has been emphasizing.





The heart of America: how to let him down softly?Photo: Reuters

For its part, China is embarking on a much more ambitious path – albeit one fraught with danger. It needs to stop depending so much on exports to the US. It must also continue to invest in its internal market, transferring wealth and opportunities from the eastern seaboard to central provinces and the west. But most of all, Beijing is focused on paving the way for a new geoeconomic Pax Sinica down the road.

Vast sectors of the US deep state though remain committed to the pivot to China – as in, its outright containment. Trump may have already understood that a trade war is a lose-lose proposition. In the absence of an Asian economic version of NATO (the dead-in-the water Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal), the emphasis will be on “vigilant” allies/semi-disguised vassals such as Japan, South Korea and Australia (after “that” phone call to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, Canberra will be a tough proposition).

In a nutshell: the pivot to Asia will survive in some shape or form. Notice the set of “recommendations” to the president by a *task force* on US-China policy organized by the Asia Society and the University of California San Diego.

Nestled among platitudes on human rights and the need to “reaffirm US commitments,” there’s the same misleading emphasis on “freedom of navigation” – which China reads as US naval hegemony meant as a law of nature – and the proverbial need to “maintain an active US naval and air presence” to “respond resolutely to China’s use of force against the United States or its treaty allies.” (Note the premise is always Chinese aggression.)

Wishful thinking – already debunked by reality – is also the norm, as in “changes are needed in the Trans-Pacific Partnership to gain bipartisan ratification in Congress.”

This is all too predictable. Kurt Campbell, at the moment part of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, among other roles, is a key member of the task force. Campbell was the *conceptualizer* of the pivot to Asia, which he sold to Hillary Clinton who then sold it to Obama. For the Pentagon, the categorical imperative remains the same: China must not be allowed in any circumstances to contest US “access” or escape from its geostrategic containment in the South and East China Seas.

Add the chilling *message* delivered by former CIA director James Woolsey, who until recently was advising Trump on national security: “The US sees itself as the holder of the balance of power in Asia and is likely to remain determined to protect its allies against Chinese overreach.” Crude translation: it’s our way or the highway (rather, bottom of the ocean).

So welcome to the overall guidelines of Trump’s China pivot. Dialectic hostility, anyone?

http://www.atimes.com/article/decoding-trumps-pivot-china/

-----

_*PEPE ESCOBAR* is an independent geopolitical analyst. He writes for many publications, and is a frequent contributor to websites and radio and TV shows ranging from the US to East Asia. Born in Brazil, he's been a foreign correspondent since 1985, and has lived in London, Paris, Milan, Los Angeles, Washington, Bangkok and Hong Kong. Even before 9/11 he specialized in covering the arc from the Middle East to Central and East Asia, with an emphasis on Big Power geopolitics and energy wars. He is the author of "Globalistan" (2007), "Red Zone Blues" (2007), "Obama does Globalistan" (2009) and "Empire of Chaos" (2014), all published by Nimble Books. His latest book is "2030", also by Nimble Books, out in December 2015._
_====================_

*ABOUT ASIA TIMES*

I have been abstaining from reading the Asia Times for quite some time since it's taken over by the *ROTHSCHILD-owned Chatham House*, which is based in London. One of my favorite authors there, Pepe Escobar, with his column "_The Roving Eye_" was ditched after the new owner. With all these unwelcomed changes I also decided to ditch this site regrettably, for I also read some writings by the economist, *Henry C.K. Liu* as well as *Prof. Michel Chossudovsky from the GlobalResearch* there... all these expert authors were gone by the arrival of the Chatham House!

Well, I just stumbled across this Pepe Escobar's article by a tip-off at some other site. The website's layout was already changed. Out of my curiosity seeing the return of Pepe Escobar there I checked further its current status, i.e. who's the owner of this site, whether it's still owned by the Chatham House or not. Then arrived at this Wiki page about the Asia Times -- still under the previous entry "Asia Times Online", last updated on 02 November 2016, at 10:12, which I secured through some screenshot. Strangely its Wiki entry mentions nothing about the [previous] ownership by the Chatham House (somehow in around 2014 or so) 

Here's the screenshot of its Wiki page that I took minutes ago, 2017-02-17 16:00 UTC for backup purpose... note esp. the highlighted info.

Look at its dual entries at Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Times_Online
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Times

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## MultaniGuy

samsara said:


> *Decoding Trump’s pivot to China | Pepe Escobar*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One Belt, One Road, One China: Is the new White House crew changing tack on Beijing? Photo: Reuters
> 
> *The pivot to China*​
> Trump remains hostage to his own election rhetoric, legacy of past policies. Meantime, Beijing is delivering its strategic vision for a new Pax Sinica​
> By Pepe Escobar (2017-02-11)
> 
> When President Xi Jinping visited the United Nations in Geneva last month, before his landmark pro-globalization speech in Davos, he said China’s proposition to the world was to “build a community of shared future for mankind and achieve shared and win-win development.”
> 
> Then came the astonishing numbers. “In the coming five years, China will import US$8 trillion of goods, attract US$600 billion of foreign investment, make US$750 billion of outbound investment, and Chinese tourists will make 700 million outbound visits.”
> 
> For most of the “community of shared future,” it didn’t take long for the implications to sink in.
> 
> Then came the threat of a US-China trade war. The possible ending of the One China policy. The threat of a blockade in the South China Sea.
> 
> Then came The Letter. From Trump to Xi, sending good wishes to “the Chinese people.” Too little, too late – over a week after the start of the Year of the Rooster. Still, with great tact, the Foreign Ministry in Beijing stressed communication was always on, “led by China’s top diplomat, State Councillor Yang Jiechi, who outranks the foreign minister.”
> 
> Then, finally, came The Phone Call. The first time they ever talked. Trump told Xi he plans to respect the One China policy. Game on.
> 
> What’s next?
> 
> *Exit ‘borders’; enter ‘corridors’*
> 
> It’s open to debate whether any of Trump’s China hands – in fact, they are virtually non-existent – have written him a memo laying out the magnitude of what Beijing is trying to accomplish, business-wise. That won’t last long because Trump eventually will wake someone up with a 3am phone call wondering, “How come we’re not part of the action?”
> 
> Inbuilt in the New Silk Roads, aka One Belt, One Road, is a new transpolitical concept; territoriality is extrapolated from national borders towards belts and roads – in fact, supply chains. This goes way beyond mere technicalities: supply-chain management; inter-modality; inter-operability; a new approach to logistics; you name it. It’s posing the foundation of a transnational new geoeconomic model, and, if successful in the long run, a new geopolitical model.
> 
> The model implies that China is proposing through all these corridors – across the upgraded high-speed Trans-Siberian rail route, across Southeast Asia, across Pakistan – whole new layers to the notion of multinational cooperation; political, economic, financial (as in the role of the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank and the Silk Road Fund). No wonder a group of Chinese researchers recently published a groundbreaking essay in Monthly Review titled
> One Belt, One Road: China’s strategy for a new global financial order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Riding the iron rooster: Xi is attempting to redraw the global geopolitical map. Photo: Reuters
> 
> Add to this the progressive interpolation of OBOR with the Russia-led Eurasian Economic Union. The EEU is fully institutionalized, complete with bureaucratic layers, while OBOR is still a loose experiment in progress. As Xi and Vladimir Putin have stressed, OBOR and EEU are ultimately complementary – and that adds an extra dimension to the Russia-China strategic partnership.
> 
> Beijing’s advance across Central Asia is essentially geoeconomic, as an infrastructure provider; Moscow for its part is not paranoid that Beijing harbors political hegemonic designs. The light at the end of the (high-speed rail) tunnel is always Eurasia integration, with regional powers Iran and eventually Turkey also on board for the long haul.
> 
> *Time for dialectic hostility*
> 
> Klaus Baader, chief Asia-Pacific economist at Societe Generale in Hong Kong, recently told Bloomberg: “How many times did Trump say he would label China a currency manipulator on his first day in office? It was pure rhetoric … Rhetoric that cannot be implemented.”
> 
> That does not mean that after the Trump-Xi call all the rhetoric will vanish. The folks in Trump’s internal audience/electoral base have eagerly entertained the desire – or illusion – that they deserve a better distribution of wealth since they’re right at the heart of the “indispensable nation”; and that this may happen mostly at the expense of a China that has profited immensely from globalization. That’s what Trump’s rhetoric has been emphasizing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The heart of America: how to let him down softly?Photo: Reuters
> 
> For its part, China is embarking on a much more ambitious path – albeit one fraught with danger. It needs to stop depending so much on exports to the US. It must also continue to invest in its internal market, transferring wealth and opportunities from the eastern seaboard to central provinces and the west. But most of all, Beijing is focused on paving the way for a new geoeconomic Pax Sinica down the road.
> 
> Vast sectors of the US deep state though remain committed to the pivot to China – as in, its outright containment. Trump may have already understood that a trade war is a lose-lose proposition. In the absence of an Asian economic version of NATO (the dead-in-the water Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal), the emphasis will be on “vigilant” allies/semi-disguised vassals such as Japan, South Korea and Australia (after “that” phone call to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, Canberra will be a tough proposition).
> 
> In a nutshell: the pivot to Asia will survive in some shape or form. Notice the set of “recommendations” to the president by a *task force* on US-China policy organized by the Asia Society and the University of California San Diego.
> 
> Nestled among platitudes on human rights and the need to “reaffirm US commitments,” there’s the same misleading emphasis on “freedom of navigation” – which China reads as US naval hegemony meant as a law of nature – and the proverbial need to “maintain an active US naval and air presence” to “respond resolutely to China’s use of force against the United States or its treaty allies.” (Note the premise is always Chinese aggression.)
> 
> Wishful thinking – already debunked by reality – is also the norm, as in “changes are needed in the Trans-Pacific Partnership to gain bipartisan ratification in Congress.”
> 
> This is all too predictable. Kurt Campbell, at the moment part of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, among other roles, is a key member of the task force. Campbell was the *conceptualizer* of the pivot to Asia, which he sold to Hillary Clinton who then sold it to Obama. For the Pentagon, the categorical imperative remains the same: China must not be allowed in any circumstances to contest US “access” or escape from its geostrategic containment in the South and East China Seas.
> 
> Add the chilling *message* delivered by former CIA director James Woolsey, who until recently was advising Trump on national security: “The US sees itself as the holder of the balance of power in Asia and is likely to remain determined to protect its allies against Chinese overreach.” Crude translation: it’s our way or the highway (rather, bottom of the ocean).
> 
> So welcome to the overall guidelines of Trump’s China pivot. Dialectic hostility, anyone?
> 
> -----
> 
> _*PEPE ESCOBAR* is an independent geopolitical analyst. He writes for many publications, and is a frequent contributor to websites and radio and TV shows ranging from the US to East Asia. Born in Brazil, he's been a foreign correspondent since 1985, and has lived in London, Paris, Milan, Los Angeles, Washington, Bangkok and Hong Kong. Even before 9/11 he specialized in covering the arc from the Middle East to Central and East Asia, with an emphasis on Big Power geopolitics and energy wars. He is the author of "Globalistan" (2007), "Red Zone Blues" (2007), "Obama does Globalistan" (2009) and "Empire of Chaos" (2014), all published by Nimble Books. His latest book is "2030", also by Nimble Books, out in December 2015._


Interesting article.

dont see where USA is pivotin to China.

I see the one China one belt system as eye-catching.

I see how Pakistan is important as well.


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## samsara

Here's an *excellent comment* posted by a reader, named *Branka Alhamdy* at the article link.

A comment that is too good to be left out. I quoted in fullness here the said posting, changed or deleted no single word, only corrected the misspelling, all credits go to the original poster/author: Branka Alhamdy

--------- the beginning of quote --------
_I am shocked to see how many people just do not get it. The "globalist" speech at Davos was not your "father's Oldsmobile". China is essentially approving of Trump's view of globalism. It is a REJECTION of block mentality, and embrace of dealing with nations as the fundamental units of international order. How many times have these principles been talked about in every gathering of Shanghai Cooperation Organization. How many times have they been explained? They essentially deny the usefulness of multilateral trade institutions, as a means of creating new blocks. Globalism, under neoconservative leadership in US for much too long, has essentially created a Trotskyite concept of global revolution, a concept of a block of the "progressive" societies vs. the oppressive. Every time blocks are created, world gets polarized, and instead of each country working on bettering itself, it becomes subsumed into the supposedly "greater" good of sacrificing itself for the block. Each country and their elites are competing for a sugar daddy, and the protection that comes with it -- economy be damned. 

While once upon a time block-based organizing principle may have had a value, in modern era of interconnected world, it has become a losing proposition. To mask the failures, the block mentality was just transformed into the concept of multilateral trade agreements. Again, a block that benefits elites, and neglects their own peoples and economies. But the proof is already out -- the system does not work. Look at EU. A very promising concept for collaboration on major infrastructure projects, standardization to insure easier movement of goods, services and people. What happened? Once a block was formed, other agendas were pursued. Stronger states started dictating the weaker ones what they can or cannot do. In fact, poorer countries got considerably poorer. Once these countries realized that they cannot sell all they want on the Union market, without quotas, they realized also that the myriad of rules started to choke their production, flooding their own market with the surplus production from the more developed countries. Then other disasters followed. Greece was "advised" by EU to drop their "dirty" industries, and focus on tourism and services. Sounds good, except that tourism and services had been woefully insufficient for any sort of sustainable economic development, and the borrowing was encouraged. Now, with the key industries and once thriving commercial ports rusting, they have turned to China to sell their port. EU was apoplectic -- how can you look for a salvation outside our block! You have to die for your block solidarity -- that is that. And other countries figured it out, and signed up with China for a wide range of projects, mostly infrastructure, mining, and metal production. Russia is investing too, but the petty block mentality is even more afraid of Russia, and many investments -- not approved! They have just done this to Hungary, denying expansion of their existing nuclear power plant that was built by Russia. And by now, while Europeans need jobs, the pundits are telling them that they need -- immigration! That Europe is aging, and needs new blood -- from refugees. In fact, it was to dilute "nationalism". While in Spain, young people under 25 are struggling with over 50% unemployment! Hey, Germany -- let EU Spanish youth, have jobs, you need not increase your "diversity" by importing anyone. 

Europe has become an experiment in social engineering, ridiculous rules in everything from schools to running farms. It is a financially and socially a mess, with unaccountable bureaucracies running the show. 

Trump understands the principles that are slowly shaping the post-block global economy. It is a network of EQUALS IN RESPONSIBILITY. No models of democracy are imposed, no attempts of changing regimes, no interfering to alter cultures, no prescribed models of economic development or governing. In the name of "human rights" the pompous fools have bombed, staged revolutions, imposed satraps on societies. And created chaos. Trump's words, not mine. 

The complementary nature of China's OBOR and Russia's EEU, has been there from the start. Eurasian Union is essentially an infrastructure of tariffs and taxes, that incorporates WTO classifications of goods, allowing the transit among members to be literally seamless. From China, across Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus, all the way up to EU border in Poland, a number of container trains is increasing all the time, bound to the land port of Duisburg in Germany. The land port is a major hub for rail transit throughout Europe. The key is win-win. Or translated, each country is to take responsibility for THEIR OWN DEVELOPMENT. They can participate, or not. Russia and China do NOT compete for the favors of other countries -- but do not connive to harm them._​--------- the end of quote --------



Iqbal Ali said:


> Interesting article.
> 
> dont see where USA is pivotin to China.
> 
> I see the one China one belt system as eye-catching.
> 
> *I see how Pakistan is important as well.*


Friend, of course Pakistan is important in the OBOR initiative as witnessed in the CPEC cooperation. The many ongoing gigantic projects involved there are already the self-explanatory, way much more convincing than the many words or even treaties!! The lots of money poured into the many projects related to CPEC are doing the remarkable talking!

*"Money talks, bullsh*t walks."* - I quote the tagline of @ahojunk

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## NakedLunch

What would a serious American pivot towards China do to Indo-American relations? Surely Trump will alter the that dynamic and India could find itself at arms-length from three of the world super-powers? Possibility....


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## ahojunk

*Maritime Silk Road relics to apply for World Heritage status*
Chinanews.com) 15:28, February 17, 2017





Liusheng Pagoda, part of the Ancient Quanzhou Historic Relics, in Shishi City, East China’s Fujian Province, Feb. 16, 2017. Local authorities are applying to have the relics added as a whole to UNESCO’s list of World Heritage Sites in 2018. The relics include sites related to the peak period of the maritime trade route, known as the Maritime Silk Road, during the Song (960-1279) and Yuan (1271-1368) dynasties. (Photo: China News Service/Wang Dongming)





Liusheng Pagoda, part of the Ancient Quanzhou Historic Relics, in Shishi City, East China’s Fujian Province, Feb. 16, 2017. Local authorities are applying to have the relics added as a whole to UNESCO’s list of World Heritage Sites in 2018. The relics include sites related to the peak period of the maritime trade route, known as the Maritime Silk Road, during the Song (960-1279) and Yuan (1271-1368) dynasties. (Photo: China News Service/Wang Dongming)





Liusheng Pagoda, part of the Ancient Quanzhou Historic Relics, in Shishi City, East China’s Fujian Province, Feb. 16, 2017. Local authorities are applying to have the relics added as a whole to UNESCO’s list of World Heritage Sites in 2018. The relics include sites related to the peak period of the maritime trade route, known as the Maritime Silk Road, during the Song (960-1279) and Yuan (1271-1368) dynasties. (Photo: China News Service/Wang Dongming)





Shihu Port, part of the Ancient Quanzhou Historic Relics, in Shishi City, East China’s Fujian Province, Feb. 16, 2017. Local authorities are applying to have the relics added as a whole to UNESCO’s list of World Heritage Sites in 2018. The relics include sites related to the peak period of the maritime trade route, known as the Maritime Silk Road, during the Song (960-1279) and Yuan (1271-1368) dynasties. (Photo: China News Service/Wang Dongming)

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## Ajit6333

A stable and prosporous pakistan is in interest of everyone...best of luck pak...however there are some negative news regarding CPEC that it will put pakistan into 20 billion debt and most employees and labours will be from China and China is selling old coal plants which will pollute the environment etc... as per Rauf Klasra Mushbir Lucman and few other reputed pakistani media personnels had to say ...pak bros pls reply


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## ahojunk

*CPEC opens door to foreign investment in Pakistan*
By Xu Wei, MengXianglin and Zhang Mengxu from People's Daily (People's Daily Online) 13:06, February 26, 2017





_Pakistanis put greetings on a board at the 2016 Sangam Club gala on Nov. 19, 2016, organized by the Chinese 
Embassy in Pakistan to increase the local people’s understanding of China. (Photo by Xu Wei/People's Daily)_​
The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor *(CPEC), the flagship project under the "Belt and Road" initiative, is going full steam ahead*. The corridor, opening a door to foreign investment in Pakistan, has brought Pakistan more development opportunities.

"In May this year, China will host in Beijing the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation, which aims to discuss ways to boost cooperation, build cooperation platforms and share cooperation outcomes, " Chinese President Xi Jinping said at the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting 2017 in Davos, Switzerland.

Proposed by China in 2013, the “Belt and Road” initiative refers to the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road. It is aimed at building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa.

Of the projects under the “Belt and Road” framework, the *CPEC is regarded as a vanguard* in China's cooperation with countries along the routes.

The *“Belt and Road” initiative is a "game changer" for Pakistan*, former Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Azizsaid.

*Key energy projects and infrastructure construction along the CPEC* will serve as an *important engine to drive Pakistan's economic growth* and bring more economic activities and opportunities to the country, he added.

Along the corridor, the Thakot-Havelian reconstruction project of the Karakoram Highway, the only overland channel connecting China and Pakistan, the construction of the Multan-Sukkur section of a motorway linking Peshawar and Karachi, as well as the Orange Line of the Lahore Metro, have already begun.

Meanwhile, *10 power plants with total installed capacity of 7,300 MW*, including one in Sahiwal, have begun construction. Other projects include the *Gwadar Port, as well as a 25-hectare free trade zone* in adjacent areas of the port.

The *CPEC has opened the doors to foreign investment in Pakistan*, *and its people will benefit from it*, Chief Minister of Punjab Shahbaz Sharif said, recognizing the significant contributions the corridor will make to improve the local economy and improve people’s livelihood.

These infrastructure projects offer new opportunities for China's machinery industry as well. Zhao Wei, an employee at Chinese heavy machinery manufacturer Xuzhou Construction Machinery Group, told People's Daily that the company has sold nearly 400 devices in the country thanks to CPEC.

The company’s regional sales have grown to more than $43 million, Zhao added. He is currently stationed in Pakistan.

The "Belt and Road" initiative is a Chinese program to achieve inter-connectivity and common development among the countries along its route. As a flagship project of the initiative, *CPEC has brought together the hearts of both peoples, setting a benchmark for cooperation among en-route countries*.

Data shows that, so far, Chinese enterprises have invested more than $50 billion in countries along the “Belt and Road” routes. In the first three quarters of 2016, China-Pakistan trade reached over $14 billion, and the value of newly signed engineering contracts by Chinese enterprises in Pakistan has surpassed $7.1 billion. 






_A Chinese factory prefabricates cover plates for the Karakoram Highway reconstruction phase 2.
(Photo by China Road and Bridge Corporation)_​

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## TaiShang

*Cargo train launched between Xi'an, Uzbekistan*
Xinhua, February 26, 2017

Cargo train services have begun between Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province, and Uzbekistan.

*A train carrying 1,000 tonnes of cotton yarn in 41 carriages arrived on Friday at Xinzhu station in Xi'an from Tashkent*, said an official with Xi'an railway bureau.

The new route has *cut the delivery time from one month to 15 to 18 days*.

Around 3,000 tonnes of quality cotton yarn will be imported from Uzbekistan every month. After arrival, the yarn will be distributed to eastern and northern parts of China.

*Xi'an started cargo train services to Central Asia in 2013 and later extended to Europe. As of Thursday, 290 trains had run carrying a total of 454,000 tonnes of cargo to cities like Almaty, Hamburg and Moscow*, said the official.

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## ahojunk

*Zhuhai grows at rapid pace under ‘Belt and Road’ initiative*
By Chen Qingqing in Zhuhai Source:Global Times Published: 2017/2/20 19:48:39

*Building up the coast*
_
In March 2015, the National Development and Reform Commission, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Commerce jointly proposed an action plan for the "One Belt and One Road" initiative that aims to leverage the strengths of coastal regions like the Pearl River Delta and advance the development of several pilot free trade zones, including the one in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Zhuhai was among the first cities to launch economic reforms more than three decades ago. Currently, the "B&R" initiative gives the city new opportunities to strengthen ties with Hong Kong, Macao and the global market. The Global Times recently visited several landmark projects in Zhuhai to see how long it will take to fully integrate the city under the initiative. This story is the second in a two-part series_.





_The Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge, which will link the three regions, overcame 
complex engineering problems to be built. Photo: Chen Qingqing/GT_​
Tian Hong, a pioneer in marine heavy industry, moved to Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, two years ago to help establish SANY Group's marine industry zone near the port of Gaolan, in Zhuhai. 

Located in western Zhuhai, the marine industry zone, considered a bellwether for the country's coastal industry, is set to become a new industrial base for marine machinery and clean energy. 

"The first phase of this zone is about 800 mu [53.3 hectares], and it will expand to 6,000 mu [400 hectares] through the second and third phases," Tian said, pointing to a vast undeveloped area outside his office window. 

The company's board has still not decided a timeline for the second and third phases, according to Tian.

Established in June 2015, SANY Marine Heavy Industry Co, a subsidiary of SANY Hong Kong Group Ltd, has settled in the area to manufacture port machinery and ship engineering equipment. 

"For us, port equipment is an indispensable part of the 'One Belt and One Road' initiative, because building ports to handle freight is a crucial part of the initiative," Tian told the Global Times on February 14. 

The company ships its machinery, such as rail-mounted container gantry cranes, to domestic destinations as well as other counties, such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. 

"Over the next five years, we aim to make about 8 billion yuan ($1.16 billion) in sales, 60 percent of which will be in overseas market," Tian said.

Several cranes have been erected in the industrial zone, only a few miles away from the port of Zhuhai, which encompasses the Gaolan port area. Workers were testing a container gantry crane, which will be soon shipped to India. 

Companies investing in the port of Zhuhai are not the only ones eyeing business opportunities from the "B&R" initiative. The port itself has taken part in the "B&R" initiative projects, including one to enhance logistics connections with western provinces such as Southwest China's Guizhou Province. 

The port is also involved in the development of the Pakistani port of Gwadar, according to an e-mail the Zhuhai Development and Reform Commission sent to the Global Times on Wednesday. 

For instance, the cooperation between the Zhuhai and Gwadar ports comprises exploring new shipping routes and strengthening the Chinese port as a logistics point to tap into the South Asian and Southeast Asian markets. 

Zhuhai has also been stepping up efforts to advance the development of Hong Kong, Macao and the Chinese mainland through the Hengqin Pilot Free Trade Zone (FTZ). 

Located in a strategic position, with Hengqin's nearest point to Macao about 187 meters and 34 nautical miles from Hong Kong, the FTZ can be easily accessed from five international airports and four deep-sea ports, such as Hong Kong International Airport and Macao International Airport.

Construction sites were seen almost everywhere in the zone. Cranes and bulldozers passed through, piling up huge mounds of dirt. Local people called the new residential property projects in this area "a new investment magnet." 

*Open questions
*
So far, 20,000 enterprises have been established in the FTZ, including 1,259 from Hong Kong and Macao, said a local official, who preferred not to be identified. 

"I came here to launch my start-up mainly because we don't have to pay rent for this office during the first year of operation," said Chen Qiwei, a 27-year-old graduate from the University of Macao. 

Chen and four partners design and manufacture automated boats. 

The office, which is less than 40 square meters, comes with basic office furniture, including chairs and desks, "though I had to supply the computers," he said.

Chen's company is one example of a start-up running in *Hengqin Innovalley, a project for aggregating start-ups*. 

Hengqin Financial Investment Co has funded the project, which is one project in the FTZ that has seen "significant progress." 

However, it is still up in the air who will invest in Chen's business. 

It takes only one day to register an enterprise in the zone, but it is expected that local authorities will ramp up supervision, the official told the Global Times on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, the FTZ opening to Macao has driven increasing number of homebuyers from the special administrative region to buy houses on the mainland because the average home price in Macao is about 100,000 Macao pataca ($12,509) per square meter, which is too high for many to afford. 

"Now, the average home price here has reached 50,000 yuan ($7,930) [per square meter], which is still cheaper than across the bridge," said a taxi driver in Hengqin, who refused to be named. 

Determining how to attract more trade enterprises will likely enhance the FTZ's connection with the global market, the official noted. "But it's still an open question," he said.

*A showcase project 
*
Miles away from the Hengqin FTZ, the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge - one of the most anticipated infrastructure projects in the world - is expected to reach the conditions of opening to traffic by the end of 2017, said Wei Dongqing, the deputy Party secretary and director of administration of the bridge authority. 

The 55-kilometer-long bridge will reshape transportation in the Pearl River Delta, Hong Kong and Macao, which will better integrate the region into the "B&R" initiative, Wei said. 

"Most importantly, it has set an example for infrastructure projects led by Chinese companies because the construction of this bridge has achieved major breakthroughs," he told the Global Times on Wednesday. 

Technical challenges during the complex process mainly come from building a link that incorporates bridges, artificial islands and the longest immersed tunnel in open water under complicated hydrogeological conditions, according to the authority. 

A construction philosophy they adopt is maximizing work on land by precasting parts such as tunnel elements, bridge piers and bridge girders in the factories all over China, and minimizing work on the sea by assembling the elements with major equipment like floating cranes.

"The completion of this bridge is just another example of how Chinese infrastructure construction and technology have come to be leaders worldwide," Wei said.

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## TaiShang

*China invested $14.5 bln in Belt and Road nations in 2016* 
China Daily, February 28, 2017

China invested about $14.5 billion in countries along Belt and the Road Initiative routes last year — *about 8.5 percent of the country's total overseas investment*, an official said.

Song Lihong, an inspector at the Comprehensive Department of the Ministry of Commerce, said great achievements have been made in the three years since the initiative was launched.

Representatives from 93 think tanks and research institutes in China participated in a meeting on Belt and Road development hosted by Renmin University's Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.

Song said* China has already signed agreements to cooperate with 14 countries stretching from Asia to Europe. It has also built 56 trade parks in more than 20 countries. Last year, China's trade volume with countries along the Belt and Road reached 6.3 trillion yuan ($917 billion).* A large number of infrastructure projects are either operating or under construction.

Moreover, China has developed people-to-people exchanges in related countries, including setting up education scholarships for students to study in China, and strengthening cooperation with colleges.

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## TaiShang

*Chengdu starts freight train to Belarus*
Xinhua, March 2, 2017

Southwest China's Chengdu city started freight trains to Belarus on Wednesday, the first of the city's planned 150 freight trains to countries such as Belarus, Russia and Lithuania this year.

The train, carrying 41 containers of auto parts, left the provincial capital of Sichuan Wednesday afternoon and will reach Minsk 12 days later after an over 8,800-km trip.

The auto parts were ordered by Chinese carmaker Geely for its joint venture in Minsk.

Chengdu ran 460 freight trains to cities in Poland, the Netherlands and Germany last year -- more than any other Chinese city. In 2017, the city plans to run 1,000 freight trains to Europe.

Demand for rail freight between China and Europe, an alternative to slower and riskier ocean shipping and much costlier air travel, has exploded in recent years.

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## TaiShang

*Beidou to cover Belt & Road countries in 2018*
2017-02-04 Source: China.org.cn By: Xu Zhenhao

The Beidou Navigation Satellite System, which is independently developed and operated by China, is expected to cover all countries along the Belt & Road routes by 2018, and then expand to cover the whole world by 2020. 
According to Fu Yong, director of China National Administration of GNSS and Applications (CNAGA), the BeiDou system has been in stable and good working condition since it was put into operation. Key indicators, especially the precision of positioning and timing, perform obviously better than designed criteria.

So far, the number of civilian users has exceeded 10 million, said Fu. In 2016, it had more than 70,000 new subscribers.

Up to now, the system has answered about 1.2 billion positioning queries, supported sending of 6.1 billion text messages and offered 90 million bi-directional timing services.

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## onebyone

*Egypt announces new Chinese investments in textile*







New Chinese investments in the field of textiles are coming soon to Egypt's Suez Canal economic region, an Egyptian official said on Saturday.

Ahmed Darwish, head of the Suez Canal Economic Zone (SCZone), said so during a business conference held in Cairo, adding that a number of investment contracts would be signed in the SCZone with Chinese international firms.

At the two-day first round of the Belt and Road Industrial and Commercial Conference, held under the slogan of "Egypt ... Your Gateway to BRICA," the Belt and Road Industrial and Commercial Alliance, Darwish said that the SCZone has become largely attractive to investors, particularly those of China.





People look at fabrics at a night market in Cairo. /CFP Photo

He added that China's TEDA Corporation, one of the oldest industrial developers in the zone, has been developing an area of over seven square km in Ain Sokhna district of the Suez Canal Corridor east of Cairo.

The SCZone chief hailed TEDA's work in the region that attracted some 68 enterprises, including Jushi, a fiberglass giant from China.

Proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping in 2013, the Belt and Road Initiative is meant to revive the ancient trade way known as the Silk Road, including land and sea trade routes between China and countries in Asia, Africa and Europe.

The first round of the annual Belt and Road Industrial and Commercial Conference is organized by Egyptian Businessmen's Association and China Federation of Industrial Economics, Egypt and China being the founding members of BRICA.

Held under the auspices of the Egyptian Ministry of Trade and Industry, some 150 Egyptian businessmen and 160 others from the BRICA states took part in the conference, besides large financial institutions including China Development Bank, Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, African Development Bank and the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa.
(Source: Xinhua)

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d4d7a4d35497a4d/share_p.html

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## ahojunk

*Eurasia Land Bridge is taking shape*

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## ahojunk

*China-Europe new freight train links Xi'an with Budapest*
(Xinhua) 20:35, April 01, 2017

XI'AN, April 1 -- A new freight train linking China's northwestern city of Xi'an with Budapest has started operation.

The 41-carriage train loaded with garments, toys, household items and electronic products mainly made in eastern China's Yiwu City, departed from Xi'an, capital of Shaanxi Province, on Saturday afternoon.

It will leave China through the Alataw Pass in Xinjiang, and pass Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and Poland before reaching its destination in Hungary.

The trip spans about *9,300 km and takes 17 days*, about 30 days shorter than the previous sea and rail route.

Starting Nov. 28, 2013, Xi'an has launched 317 cargo trains to central Asia and Europe, exporting 474,000 tonnes of goods as of April 1 this year.

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## ahojunk

*Myanmar president pledges efforts in Belt and Road Initiative*
(Xinhua) 19:16, April 07, 2017

Myanmar is studying how to participate in the Belt and Road Initiative, as an increasing number of countries are taking part, according to the Myannmar president.

President U Htin Kyaw made the remarks Friday during his visit to Xi'an, capital city of northwest China's Shaanxi Province.

Xi'an is the starting point of the ancient Silk Road, and home to the world-famous Terracotta Warriors.

Shaanxi is also a core area for the Belt and Road Initiative, which was proposed by China in 2013 with the aim of building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa, along and beyond the ancient Silk Road trade routes.

U Htin Kyaw, who visited the Terracotta Warriors on Friday afternoon, expressed hope of enhancing cooperation with Shaanxi in areas such as trade and vocational training.

The Myanmar president, currently on a six-day visit to China from April 6 to 11, is accompanied by a delegation of over 30 members, including ministers from the country's commerce and construction departments.


********

_The Belt & Road Initiative (or OBOR) is gathering momentum._
.

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## Shotgunner51

onebyone said:


> Suez Canal Economic Zone (SCZone)





onebyone said:


> China's TEDA Corporation


Good news! Wish more investments go Teda City and Egypt.






@ahojunk OBOR news

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## Dawood Ibrahim

*First ‘Silk Road’ train from Britain leaves for China*

STANFORD HOPE: The first-ever freight train from Britain to China started its mammoth journey on Monday along a modern-day “Silk Road” trade route as Britain eyes new opportunities after it leaves the European Union.

The 32-container train, around 600 metres long, left the vast London Gateway container port laden with whisky, soft drinks and baby products, bound for Yiwu on the east coast of China.

It was seen off on its 18-day, 12,000-kilometre journey with a string quartet, British and Chinese flags, and speeches voicing hope that it will cement a new golden age of trade between the two countries as Brexit negotiations loom.

The first train from China to Britain arrived on January 18, filled with clothes and other retail goods, and Monday’s departure was the first journey in the other direction.

The rail route is cheaper than air freight and faster than sea freight, offering logistics companies a new middle option.

After the last three containers were lifted onto the wagons, the driver gave a thumbs-up and tooted his horn as he got the train rolling at the port in Stanford-le-Hope, east of London.

“Restoring the ancient Silk Road as a means by which China, north Europe and now the UK can exchange goods is an important and exciting initiative,” said Xubin Feng, the chairman of Yiwu Timex Industrial Investment, which is co-running the service. “We have great faith in the UK as an export nation and rail provides an excellent alternative for moving large volumes of goods over long distances faster.”

The train will go through the Channel Tunnel before travelling across France, Belgium, Germany, Poland, Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan before heading into China.

The containers, which also contain vitamins and pharmaceutical products, will be taken off and put on different wagons as they leave Poland, as the former Soviet Union countries use a wider rail gauge.

The containers switch back to standard gauge wagons at the Chinese border, an operation that typically takes around two hours. Boosting trade with China is a top priority for Britain as it leaves the EU and becomes free to strike its own trade deals. London was hailing the first export train as part of its “global Britain” plan, recalibrating its post-EU trading outlook.

Rupert Soames, Prime Minister Theresa May’s business ambassador for infrastructure and transport, said that the new route was “positive and timely”.

_Published in Dawn, April 11th, 2017_

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## ahojunk

Duration: 0:49 secs

*First "Silk Road" train from London leaves for China*


New China TV
Published on 11 Apr 2017

First "Silk Road" train from London leaves for China. The cargo train is loaded with 32 containers carrying products including milk powder and soft drinks.

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## ahojunk

*China Exclusive: Belt and Road "huge opportunity" for China, world: experts*
(Xinhua) 19:48, April 12, 2017

BEIJING, April 12 -- Experts said the China-backed Belt and Road Initiative will create fresh business opportunities for the world, as well as tangible benefits.

A seasoned lawyer in serving Belt and Road projects, Sean Prior, counsel at the law firm Mayer Brown JSM, is upbeat about the prospects of the initiative.

"For the last few years, I have done a lot of work with Chinese developers and financiers in Asia, including Bangladesh, Pakistan and the Philippines, and all my clients from those countries agree the Belt and Road is a huge opportunity," Prior said.

Prior cited surging investment from China to the Belt and Road region and increasing cooperative agreements signed between Chinese and local companies.

The initiative was proposed by China in 2013 to create a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes. Investment and trade have been growing rapidly for the past years.

ASEAN countries, the Middle East and South Asia have attracted most of the investment, and the energy, transportation and information technology sectors appeared to be investors' favorites, according to a report co-authored by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS) and China Bond Rating. Prior believes the initiative can generate benefits in a wide range of areas, with infrastructure improvements only the first stage of development.

"*Better infrastructure will create conditions for the moving of industrial production capacity from China* to areas with resources and demand, and then there will be more projects in retail, real estate and other market-oriented sectors in countries with large populations," Prior said.

The Belt and Road Initiative will have a broad influence in boosting local growth, according to Prior.

Echoing his words, Dai Guanchun, a partner at the Jingtian and Gongcheng law firm, also expects the initiative to generate great opportunities.

"It may be oil companies and project contractors at first, but investors in other sectors, from flour to finance, will be quickly attracted. The industrial chain will keep expanding," Dai said. "The local economy will boom and exchanges with the rest of the world will improve, which, in my perspective, is the true value of the Belt and Road Initiative."

It is not just Chinese firms, but also those from developed countries, that can seek their fortunes in the process, according to Dai.

*China has invested more than 50 billion U.S. dollars in countries along the Belt and Road routes since 2013*.

A total of *56 economic and trade cooperation zones have been built by Chinese businesses in 20 Belt and Road countries, generating nearly 1.1 billion U.S. dollars in tax revenue and 180,000 jobs for relevant countries*.

However, experts also warned of risks due to an uncertain investment environment. Companies should be aware of the lack of legal protection for investors, uncertainties in local regulations, and protectionism in some countries, Dai said.

The CASS report cited ethnic and religious factors, a changing geopolitical landscape, as well as weak and unbalanced global economic growth as major challenges.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> A total of *56 economic and trade cooperation zones have been built by Chinese businesses in 20 Belt and Road countries, generating nearly 1.1 billion U.S. dollars in tax revenue and 180,000 jobs for relevant countries*.



Also add about 40 rail linkages established with Europe via Central Asia and Russia. 

Infra investment so far went to South and Southeast Asia, while trade links were mostly established with Russia, Central Asia and Europe.

Prudent choices.

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## Mo12

Well done China.


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## JSCh

Friday, April 14, 2017, 11:18
*UK further embraces Belt & Road Initiative*
By Angus Mcneice
*Britain hopes to provide services across a range of sectors to aid expansion of the Chinese project. Angus McNeice reports from London.*

*Editor's note:* _This is the fourth installment of China Daily's special series on the Belt and Road Initiative. Friday marks the one-month countdown to the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing in May._




This year, the United Kingdom became the westernmost point in the Belt and Road Initiative's sprawling land-transportation network when a freight train crossed the deserts and mountains of Eurasia on the 12,400 km journey from Yiwu, Zhejiang province, on China's eastern coast, to Barking Station in London.

The UK has been a strong advocate of President Xi Jinping's signature international development and infrastructure plan since 2013, when the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, known together as the Belt and Road Initiative, were proposed.

British companies have worked on dozens of Chinese development projects along the initiative's proposed routes. The UK's most visible endorsement of the plan came in 2015, when it joined the China-led Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank. In February, Chinese government sources told news outlets that China had invited British Prime Minister Theresa May to its major Belt and Road summit in Beijing in May.

In March, Liu Xiaoming, the ambassador to the UK, said China views Britain as "a country of global influence" and an important partner for the initiative.

James Sassoon, chairman of the China-Britain Business Council and a member of the British House of Lords, said this view, coupled with the UK's already active involvement, places the nation in prime position to expand its contribution to the initiative beyond the provision of legal and financial services.

"In the Belt and Road, we are beginning to see a glimpse of the future," Sassoon said.

"And the Belt and Road is still evolving. That is why the expertise of UK financial, legal and advisory services are so important at this early stage. However, we also see longer-term opportunities for UK-China collaboration in third countries across many other sectors, including manufacturing, logistics, agriculture, food processing, science and technology, education, healthcare and retail."

British companies active in Belt and Road nations include BP, Arup, Atkins and Mott Macdonald in the energy and infrastructure sectors, HSBC and Standard Chartered in banking and financial services, and KPMG, PWC and Pinsent Masons in professional and legal services.

Last year, Linklaters, a London-headquartered law firm, provided legal advice to a Chinese bank in a $1.95 billion deal for the Thar Block II mining and energy project in Pakistan. In March last year, UK law firm Herbert Smith Freehills was involved in the Silk Road Fund's acquisition of a stake in Novatek, a natural gas producer in Russia. Meanwhile, in October, the London Metal Exchange, the global center for industrial metals trading, agreed to invest in warehouse construction along the Belt and Road routes.

In late March, at the Boao Forum's annual conference in Hainan province, Li Ruogu, former chairman of the Export-Import Bank of China, said collaboration between the UK and China on the initiative and a new trade dialogue following Britain's exit from the European Union could deepen ties between the two nations.

*Commercial considerations*

Bilateral trade between China and the UK has surpassed 60 billion pounds ($74.5 billion) in each of the last two years, having increased more than two and a half times in 10 years. Recent reports show that the UK received almost 25 percent of China's entire inward stock of investment to the EU last year.

The initiative has augmented trade between the UK and China, with the creation of the Yiwu-London rail line and the launch of a representative office for the Chengdu International Railway Service in London.

The rail company operates the Chengdu-Euro Express Railway, one of the largest land trade routes by volume between Asia and Europe. Stephen Rinsler, director of the UK's Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, said if the rail link can prove its reliability it will provide a valuable alternative for exporters because rail is cheaper than air and faster than shipping.

Nathan Hayes, an economist at the Construction Intelligence Centre in London, said as markets along the routes develop and investment drives further growth, secondary opportunities for the UK will likely be found across multiple sectors. "UK businesses can leverage the improving business environments and better access to growing, liberalized markets along the Belt and Road routes to secure opportunities across sectors," he said.

Hayes argues that this secondary British involvement is likely to arrive as a trickle, not a wave. That's because many of the countries along the routes are emerging markets with potential risk factors, such as foreign-exchange volatility, recession and the "crowding-out" of private sector investment as a result of government activity.

"Operating risks are obviously much higher in such environments, and project management may be much more fraught," he said. "Such environments present the greatest risks to UK companies attempting to conduct business."

Sassoon, of the China-Britain Business Council, said an initial "leap of faith" will be required by participants in an initiative of the scope and scale of the Belt and Road. The region covers around two-thirds of the world's population, accounting for about one-third of global GDP.

"Something of this nature requires vision and dogged commitment to bring to life", he said. "The commercial opportunities are clear in the long term, and the value of individual projects in remote or underdeveloped areas can only be realized when they are part of a linked network."

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## Fledgingwings

When would this mighty project be completed ?


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## ahojunk

*Russian President Putin confirms to attend Beijing's Belt and Road Forum*
(Xinhua) 08:06, April 14, 2017





_Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli (R) meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, Russia, April 13, 2017. (Xinhua/Wang Ye)_


MOSCOW, April 13 (Xinhua) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin said here on Thursday that he is glad to *attend the Belt and Road Forum for international cooperation to be held in Beijing on May 14-15*.

Putin made the remarks when he met with visiting Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli, who was here for the fourth meeting of the China-Russia Investment Cooperation Committee and the meeting with the Russian chair of the China-Russia Energy Cooperation Committee from Tuesday to Thursday.

China put forward the Belt and Road Initiative in 2013, with the aim of building a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient Silk Road trade routes.

*China has viewed Russia as an important partner among the Belt and Road countries*, Zhang told Putin, adding that the *Chinese government will make good preparations for Putin's attendance*.

It is the strategic consensus reached by both Chinese President Xi Jinping and Putin to *integrate the Belt and Road Initiative and Russia's Eurasian Economic Union*, said Zhang.

China has attached great importance to Russia's initiative of the Eurasian Economic Union and related ministries of both sides are in discussions of concrete measures to boost the integration, the vice premier said.

He called on both sides to speed up the construction of major energy projects, expand two-way investment and finance cooperation in order to promote the common development.

Hailing the rapid growth of two-way trade volume since last year, Putin said the bilateral trade structure has improved.

Sound progresses have scored on the Russia-China cooperation on major energy projects, said Putin. The east-route gas pipeline project and Yamal liquefied natural gas (LNG) project have advanced smoothly, while the west-route gas pipeline projects are under negotiation, he said.

Putin said Russia welcomes the active participation of Chinese investors into Russia's economic development.

He also called on the two sides to explore new areas of cooperation in order to add new impetus into the strategic partnership of comprehensive coordination.

During Zhang's three-day stay in Moscow, he also met with Igor Sechin, the chief of Russian oil company Rosneft and Alexei Miller, CEO of Russian natural gas company Gazprom respectively. The two sides exchanged views on further cooperation.

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## ahojunk

*China’s direct investment in Belt and Road regions*
2017-04-12 10:22 | Globaltimes.cn | Editor:Li Yan








********

_This is a game changer, whether one likes it or not._
.

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## TaiShang

ahojunk said:


> *China has viewed Russia as an important partner among the Belt and Road countries*, Zhang told Putin, adding that the *Chinese government will make good preparations for Putin's attendance*.
> 
> It is the strategic consensus reached by both Chinese President Xi Jinping and Putin to *integrate the Belt and Road Initiative and Russia's Eurasian Economic Union*, said Zhang.



Let's sign more deals and achieve greater strategic congruence. Cooperation makes greatest sense not only economically, but also geopolitically.

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## ahojunk

*‘Modern Silk Road’ expanded: Express train departs Chengdu for Lodz*
CGTN

Published on 16 Apr 2017

The China-Europe Rail Service celebrated its sixth anniversary this week, and its role in international trade is expected to further expand with the development of the Belt and Road Initiative.

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## ahojunk

*Commentary: China's "Belt and Road" initiative delivering benefits to world*
(Xinhua) 09:17, April 16, 2017

The "Belt and Road" initiative, the grand trade and infrastructure plan, may have only originated in China in 2013 but *already it has delivered benefits well beyond its borders.*

Building upon the spirit of the ancient routes, the modern Belt and Road is a transnational network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa, with the aim of promoting common development among all the countries involved.

The initiative is not a solo performance. It is a symphony played by multiple performers according to their talents. There can be no hogging the limelight of growth and development. The stage is big enough to be shared by all.

Openness, inclusiveness and mutual benefit are the hallmarks of the Belt and Road; the source of the strong support it has garnered.

Since 2013, *over 100 countries and international organizations have given warm responses to the initiative, with the signing of nearly 50 inter-governmental agreements of cooperation*.

The ambitious plan is not empty talk. It is a framework under which concrete, targeted projects and measures, which are consistent with local demands, are rolled out to aid development.

Chinese companies have invested more than 50 billion U.S. dollars and built 56 economic and trade cooperation zones in 20 countries along the routes, generating nearly 1.1 billion U.S. dollars in tax revenue, creating 180,000 local jobs and spurring the economic development of these countries.

A 3.37 km water pipeline project, completed by a Chinese company, in a Jordanian township is among the latest infrastructure projects. A total of 500,000 people living in an area of extreme water shortage now have access to water 24 hours a day, thanks to the project.

In a month, China will host the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation to explore ways to address problems facing global and regional economy, create fresh energy for pursuing inter-connected development.

The significance of the event, which takes the theme "boosting cooperation and realizing win-win development," is especially timely given the rise of protectionism and anti-globalization.

The global economy has remained sluggish for quite some time. Income inequality and uneven development all weigh heavily on global social stability.

The Belt and Road initiative, which embodies responsibility, win-win cooperation and genuine pursuit of common development, offers the world a Chinese approach to the challenges of today; a balanced, equitable and inclusive development model.

We are closer today than we have ever been. The world is a close-knit community of shared future. Our interests and pursuits are extensive and mutually dependent. We should all pursue a well-coordinated and inter-connected approach.

The history books can show us -- isolation and exclusivity will lead nowhere, neither will protectionism and anti-globalism deliver.

Opening up and cooperation are the prerequisites of a bright future, and China welcomes anyone who wants to jump on its express train of development.

We should continue to champion an open global economy to share opportunities and interests and achieve win-win results. Efforts need to be redoubled to develop global connectivity to enable all countries to achieve inter-connected growth and share the prosperity.

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## onebyone

*Multiple Routes Between China And Europe Is Why The New Silk Road Is A Real Game Changer*

Wade Shepard , CONTRIBUTOR
I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find. 
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.





_Wade Shepard_

A train bound for Germany pulls into the Khorgos Gateway dry port in Kazakhstan on the Chinese border.

The power and potential of the Belt and Road — aka the New Silk Road — lies in its versatility. This emerging network of revitalized transportation routes and new trading hubs which stretch between China and Europe finds efficiency, security, and healthy competition in the fact that it is not a single route but a network of multiple, interconnected trans-Eurasian corridors. Like in the days of the ancient Silk Road, if one corridor goes down due to a change in government, war, an economic upheaval, or a spat over tariffs, cargo can simply be shipped to similar destinations via alternative routes — like a river flowing around a boulder.

Eurasia, the continental landmass that contains both Europe and Asia, is rapidly being drawn into a single massive market covering upwards of 65% of the population, 75% of energy resources, and 40% of GDP in the world, and it is revolutionized rail routes that are the strings tying it all together.

There are currently three operational rail corridors that physically connect China and Europe. The northern one goes mainly through Russia, and for the most part follows the route of the Trans-Siberian Express. The central route goes all the way across Kazakhstan before linking into the northern route in the west of Russia. While the southern route goes through Kazakhstan to Aktau and either crosses the Caspian Sea by ferry or goes around to Iran before going through Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey. Along each corridor the transport time is in the ballpark of 10.5 to 16 days.

While the north and central overland routes of the New Silk Road are currently booming, the southern one is just now becoming established. While the more developed routes efficiently link together just three large customs zones — China, the Eurasian Economic Union, and the EU — amounting to just two “border” crossings along the 9,000+ kilometer journey, the southern route is a little more complicated. Entering into Kazakhstan from China at Khorgos, the line then enters separate customs regimes in Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey, before connecting into the European rail network.

Ironically, a couple of marked political and economic conflicts have actually led to increased development of this southern corridor.

“This route came about to go around Russia,” Martin Voetmann, who currently works for DP World at the Aktau seaport, spoke bluntly.

The EU leveling sanctions against Russia over the Ukraine conflict sparked a reactionary embargo by Russia against many EU products. Not only are European products like meat, produce, and cheese prohibited from being imported into Russia but they are not even allowed to be transported to third party countries across Russian terrain.

“The big problem that we face is that there are still sanctions in Russia to move perishables over from Europe to China or Europe to Kazakhstan through Russia. That's the bottleneck at the moment,” said Jan Koolen from Unit 45 — a company that manufactures high-tech shipping containers which allow sensitive electronics and perishables to be shipped overland between China and Europe year round. “But now they are also looking at another corridor, which is Baku-Aktau, the southern route.”

The main advantage of going around Russia is that manufacturers and freight forwarders can sidestep the country's reactionary sanctions and get their goods to their desired markets unimpeded. Up to now, the Russian embargo has severely hamstrung Europe’s ability to fully leverage the newly established trans-Eurasian rail network, as the type of products that its producers would otherwise ship overland to China largely happen to be the same ones that Russia prohibits. The trans-Caspian route provides a workaround to this trade blockade, and the corridor is starting to gain momentum the more Europe seeks to fill the backload of rail cargo to China.

“You have the return factor,” Voetmann began. “You end up with your containers and your platforms in Europe, now what do you do with them?”

It’s logistics 101: a closed circuit where containers are transported full of goods on both outbound and return journeys is optimal. The China to Europe side has been activated -- nearly 2,000 trains have now cross Eurasia going west. Now the intrigue is to fill the capacity for the return trips to China, presenting Europe with a new way to access the booming Chinese middle class in the process.

Major initiatives, like the commissioning of the first UK to China direct cargo train last week, the creation of New Silk Way Logistics, a joint venture between three of Europe's largest freight forwarders, and the Kazakh multimodal company KTZ Express setting up operations in Europe, show that accessing China by rail is becoming increasingly attractive to Western companies.

Voetmann is currently busy at work coming up with solutions to establish the port of Aktau as a hub for west to east trans-Eurasian cargo.

“So potentially you can find a fast and fairly cheap [option] for the return cargo coming from Europe and into China,” he said. "It's fairly fast and maybe we will be able to do it in a cheaper way, so it opens up a whole new range of possibilities once you have this route established.”

However, the southern rail corridor is currently only running on an as needed basis. There is not yet a regular service, but this is set to change.

“As demand for the services on the Southern rail corridor continues to grow, the authorities in Lianyungang and Chengdu are looking to introduce scheduled services into Istanbul in the coming months. Once in place, these scheduled services will enable greater flow of goods along the corridor and spur China-Europe trade,” said Steve Huang, the CEO of China operations for DHL, the German freight forwarding giant who is one of the core companies that are blazing trails along the New Silk Road.

Pushing forward regular service on the southern rail corridor is the soon to be launched Baku-Tbilisi-Kars (BTK) rail line, which will directly link the port of Baku in Azerbaijan with Turkey.

“The Baku–Tbilisi–Kars railway is expected to be completed in 2017. Once its operational, transportation from China to Turkey will be faster and more cost effective,” Huang continued.

The power of China’s Belt and Road initiative and the broader New Silk Road is found in the fact that a diverse and interconnected network is being created — a supercharged economic grid that is being superimposed over the whole of Eurasia — not a single route which can be easily disrupted.

Or, as my seven-year-old daughter once put it:

“You just said that there are many roads, daddy, that means you have to call it the New Silk _Roads_.”

_I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. Follow by RSS.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadesh...ilk-road-is-a-real-game-changer/#5913cd41feba
_

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## ahojunk

*The Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation to be held on May 14 and 15*
(CNTV) 14:02, April 18, 2017





Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi.[Photo: CGTN]

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi announced on Tuesday that the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation will be held in Beijing on May 14 and 15.

So far, *28 heads of state and government including Russian President Vladimir Putin, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and over 80 leaders of international organizations, 100 ministerial-level officials, as well as 1,200 delegates from various countries and regions will participate in the forum*.

Chinese President Xi Jinping will attend the opening ceremony and deliver a keynote speech, as well as host a round table meeting that will brainstorm on policy and strategic development and interconnected development.

In addition to the round-table meeting, another “1+6” high level meeting will be held to discuss various topics including infrastructure, trade and economic cooperation, energy resources, financial cooperation, eco-environment, and people-to-people exchanges.

Proposed by President Xi Jinping in 2013, the initiative is now in its fourth year and is of great importance to global governance and international endeavor to make globalization more inclusive. Wang said the upcoming forum will be the highest level international forum to be held since the proposal of the initiative.


********

_It is amazing that OBOR is taking off and gathering momentum.
Don't think any other country is able to coordinate this massive programme this well.
Well, if you have plenty of money, of course it helps._
.

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## ahojunk

*Key forum to rally support for Belt and Road Initiative*
(Xinhua) 08:17, April 19, 2017






_Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi (C) and Wang Xiaotao (L), deputy head of the National Development and Reform Commission, attend a press conference on the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, capital of China, April 18, 2017. The Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation will be held from May 14 to 15 in Beijing and Chinese President Xi Jinping will attend the opening ceremony and host the round table summit of the leaders, Wang Yi said on Tuesday. At the invitation of Xi, 28 heads of state and government leaders will attend the forum. (Xinhua/Xing Guangli)_


BEIJING, April 18 -- China is counting on an upcoming forum to build support for its Belt and Road Initiative, a Chinese solution to global economic blues.

Next month, the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation will convene in Beijing.

The gathering meets an increasingly urgent need for a new cooperation platform that brings countries together to pull the world out of the economic mire and inject fresh energy into interconnected development.

The world experienced the worst economic hardships last year since the global financial crisis, with a 13-percent drop in foreign direct investment and weak trade growth.

"We do not lack the resources or ability to address our problems, but the current fragmented and exclusive international cooperation model makes it difficult to integrate resources," Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Tuesday at a press briefing.

A new platform is needed to explore ways of cementing economic recoveries, creating new growth and improving infrastructure, Wang said.

The two-day forum starting May 14 may go some way to showing that the initiative proposed by China in 2013 can do that job.

The Belt and Road Initiative aims to become a transnational network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa, promoting common development among all countries involved. The meeting is expected to translate the ambitious blueprint into solid progress and turn a new page on the initiative.

*Thus far, 28 heads of state and government leaders have confirmed their attendance at the forum. Other delegates include officials, entrepreneurs, financiers and reporters from 110 countries, and representatives of 61 international organizations*.

Wang expects the results of the forum to range from consensus building to specific measures on implementation. *China expects to sign agreements with around 20 counties and 20 organizations at the event*.

*MUTUAL BENEFITS, JOINT EFFORTS*

Cooperation and win-win development will lie at the core of the forum.

"*The Belt and Road has become the most important public good China has provided to the world. It was first proposed by China but now is for all countries to enjoy*," Wang said.

*Since 2013, China has invested more than 50 billion U.S. dollars in Belt and Road countries. A total of 56 economic and trade cooperation zones have already been built by Chinese businesses there, generating nearly 1.1 billion dollars in tax revenue and creating 180,000 local jobs*.

"China is upbeat about the initiative in boosting mutual development and is willing to channel more energy into it," Wang said, adding that China's transformation and opening up will provide more opportunities.

Meanwhile, he called for concerted efforts from counties involved, saying that beneficiaries will in return inject vitality into the regional development in the future.

"We do not need 'lone heroes' but partners who pull together in times of trouble," Wang said. The initiative is not a solo performance.

Wang compared the Belt and Road to "a circle of friends" open to all countries that share the same goals, rather than an exclusive club, saying that China has no intention of drawing geographical boundaries to areas covered by the initiative.

"As long as the spirit of the Belt and Road is recognized... everyone can enjoy its opportunities," he said.

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## ahojunk

*Golden bridge illuminates ahead of Belt and Road forum*
2017-04-20 10:11 | Ecns.cn | Editor: Yao Lan





The newly built "Silk Road Golden Bridge" in Beijing Olympic Park gets its lights tested on April 18, 2017, in preparation for the upcoming Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation that will be held from May 14 to 15.(Photo/VCG)





The newly built "Silk Road Golden Bridge" in Beijing Olympic Park gets its lights tested on April 18, 2017, in preparation for the upcoming Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation that will be held from May 14 to 15.(Photo/VCG)





The newly built "Silk Road Golden Bridge" in Beijing Olympic Park gets its lights tested on April 18, 2017, in preparation for the upcoming Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation that will be held from May 14 to 15.(Photo/VCG)


********

_Reminds me of the ancient Chinese gold tael._
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## ahojunk

*Seven countries to deepen cooperation on China-Europe freight rail services*
(Xinhua) 09:08, April 23, 2017




_Photo taken on April 20, 2017 shows the containers in a railway container center in Qingbaijiang District in Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province. This container center serves as a railway logistic hub in southwest China. Till April 16, 2017, 559 cargo trains departed from the center and went to Europe. (Xinhua/Xue Yubin)_


BEIJING, April 22 (Xinhua) -- Railway authorities of *China, Belarus, Germany, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Poland and Russia, have signed an agreement to deepen cooperation on China-Europe freight rail services*, according to China Railway Corporation.

The agreement serves the Belt and Road Initiative, expands the market share of rail freight between Asia and Europe and drives economic development and trade cooperation for counties along the route.

The countries will *jointly push for better railway infrastructure for a safe, smooth, fast, convenient and competitive rail route*, according to the agreement.

*Information technology will boost train speed and unified service*. Information sharing platforms will be built to ensure transport safety.

The countries will expand the rail services to more areas with faster customs clearance. A joint work team and expert team will be formed to solve problems.

*The China-Europe freight train service was launched in 2011 and grown rapidly with high efficiency. It has become an important part of the Belt and Road Initiative*.

*A total of 3,557 freight trains have run so far, with services reaching 27 Chinese cities and 28 cities in 11 countries in Europe*.


*******

_The speed at which the rail routes are happening is incredible._

.



ahojunk said:


> Railway authorities of *China, Belarus, Germany, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Poland and Russia, have signed an agreement to deepen cooperation on China-Europe freight rail services*,


.
All these countries are in Eastern Eruope and Central Asia except Germany.



ahojunk said:


> *A total of 3,557 freight trains have run so far, with services reaching 27 Chinese cities and 28 cities in 11 countries in Europe*.


.
That is approximately 2 trains per day. This number will increase.

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## ahojunk

*High-end products from China’s Chongqing shipped to Europe by rail*


CGTN
Published on 20 Apr 2017

New international railway lines are helping to connect modern day China with Europe. The first line starting from southwest China’s Chongqing was put into use over six years ago. Companies use it to transport high-end products from Chongqing to Duisburg in Germany. Laptops assembled in Chongqing are making their way to Europe's biggest economy thanks to this railway.

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## TaiShang

*China opens new freight train service to Moscow*
Xinhua | Updated: 2017-04-21

XIAMEN - A new freight train service started on Friday *linking the east China port city of Xiamen with Moscow*, making it the newest China-Europe freight train route.

At 9:30 am,* the train with 40 containers left the station from Xiamen Free Trade Zone carrying goods worth $363,000 including granite, lighting supplies, artificial flowers and shoes for Moscow.*

A single trip on the *10,920-km route takes 13 to 14 days*. Without the direct train service, it* used to take at least 25 days* to transport goods.

The train route connects the eastern and northeastern Chinese cities of Nanchang, Nanjing, Jinan and Jinzhou, and crosses the border via Manzhouli Port in North China's Inner Mongolia autonomous region.

Jiang Jingdong, assistant general manager of Xiamen Haicang Free Trade Port Zone Investment and Construction Management Co Ltd, said the service is still in trial operations with three trips from Xiamen to Moscow per month. The freight train service will be normalized in the second half of this year.

Huang Changhong, manager of Trans-China Logistics Co Ltd, said that trade between Xiamen and Russia is complementary. *Xiamen and its surrounding cities are export-oriented with machinery equipment and shoemaking industries, while it imports wood, paper pulp and vegetable oil from Russia.*

Lin Jiangfan, an official with Xiamen Haicang Free Trade Port Zone, said that as the host city of the 2017 BRICS Summit slated for September, Xiamen welcomes a closer partnership with Russia, one of the BRICS countries. The Xiamen-Moscow freight train service could also strengthen the Belt and Road Initiative, driving trade in Xiamen.

In 2016, exports from Xiamen to Russia reached more than 5 billion yuan ($727 million), and imports from Russia totaled 1.9 billion yuan.

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## ahojunk

*China to push for common prosperity with Kyrgyzstan via Belt & Road: Chinese FM*
(Xinhua) 14:50, April 22, 2017

China is ready to work together with Kyrgyzstan to achieve common prosperity by building the Silk Road Economic Belt, as agreed by the leaders of both sides, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said here Friday.

Wang made the remarks while meeting his Kyrgyz counterpart, Erlan Abdyldayev, on the sidelines of a Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) foreign ministers' meeting.

Since the establishment of their diplomatic ties 25 years ago, the two countries have witnessed the stable and healthy development of their bilateral relations, said Wang.

Kyrgyz President Almazbek Atambayev's successful visit to China earlier this year has further consolidated the friendship and trust between the leaders of the two countries, and during the visit they have also mapped out the future development of bilateral ties, said Wang.

Kyrgyzstan is an important partner in building the Silk Road Economic Belt and China is willing to work with the Kyrgyz side in this regard so as to bring about development for both countries, said Wang.

For his part, Abdyldayev said Kyrgyzstan cherishes its relations with China and the country firmly supports China's efforts to combat terrorism, separatism and extremism.

The country is also willing to take all necessary measures to ensure the safety of the Chinese diplomatic mission in Kyrgyzstan, he added.

The Chinese embassy in Kyrgyzstan was hit by a suicide attacker in August, with the lone assailant killed and five others injured.

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## JSCh

* Int'l coalition set up to promote space cooperation *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-04-23 18:24:07_|_Editor: ying_




XI'AN, April 23 (Xinhua) -- A coalition was established Sunday in northwest China's Shaanxi Province to promote innovation and cooperation on space exploration under the the Belt and Road Initiative.

The coalition, set up in the provincial capital of Xi'an, encompasses 48 universities, research institutes and academic organizations at home and abroad. It was initiated by the Chinese Society of Astronautics and Xi'an-based Northwestern Polytechnical University.

Tian Yulong, secretary-general of China National Space Administration, said the alliance will boost exchanges on space innovation between its members and help joint training of high-caliber professionals.

China designated April 24 as Space Day last year to mark the anniversary of the country's first satellite launch Dongfanghong-1 in 1970.

Xi'an, home to more than 200 aerospace research centers and enterprises, will hold major celebrations on Monday.

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## ahojunk

*Interview: UNESCO chief lauds China's efforts promoting cultural dialogues along Belt and Road*
By Xinhua writers Gan Chun, Zhang Man (Xinhua) 09:02, April 20, 2017





_Irina Bokova, Director-General of the United NationsEducational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), is interviewed by Xinhua in Paris, capital of France, on April 18, 2017. China has once again shown strong commitment to promoting cultural dialogues and diversity through its Belt and Road Initiative, said Irina Bokova, Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) here on Wednesday. (Xinhua/Chen Yichen)_

PARIS, April 19 -- China has once again showed strong commitment to promoting cultural dialogues and diversity through its Belt and Road Initiative, said Irina Bokova, Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) here on Wednesday.

In an interview with Chinese media, Bokova described the Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping in 2013, as a "fascinating project", stressing that the UN agency commends and supports this initiative.

The initiative, having already won the support of over 100 countries and international organizations, aims to build a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient Silk Road routes, which were inscribed on the UNESCO World Cultural Heritage List in 2015.

*This goal coincides with that of the UNESCO's own Silk Road Project launched in 1988*, which is to promote intercultural dialogues and establish links between different cities and civilizations along the historic trade routes, so as to achieve prosperity and harmony, Bokova told reporters.

*The UNESCO chief will attend the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation*, scheduled for mid-May, which will bring together at least 28 heads of state and government and is expected to yield major outcomes including the signing of cooperative documents between China and around 40 countries and international organizations.

"I'm more than convinced that economic prosperity only cannot bring happiness, sustainability and harmony in societies. We need also the soft power; we need to develop education; we need to develop intercultural dialogues; we need to develop understandings thus bring more social inclusion and equity in societies, and this is where UNESCO brings our contribution," said Bokova.

Recalling her own visits to many historic sites along the Silk Road, Bokova said she has always been amazed by how intercultural dialogues were developed over 2,000 years ago.

"This is something that we should encourage nowadays if we want to see more prosperity, more connectivity, and more mutual understanding among the peoples, which in my view will accompany trade, investment and economic prosperity," she said.

Bokova said she was particularly impressed by the speech by President Xi on his visit to UNESCO Paris headquarters in March 2014, in which the President underlined the importance of the Silk Road and intercultural dialogues, a message that remains highly relevant today.

"It is very relevant because unfortunately we see extremism, we see destruction; we see a different vision of the world. This is why our cooperation with China is so important, and this is why the Belt and Road Initiative is so important," she explained.

She cited examples of the atrocious destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha in Afghanistan in 2001 and the ancient city of Palmyra in Syria earlier this year.

"The extremists destroyed these heritages because they rejected the same view about diversity in the world," she said. "We should educate young people about diversity. We have to prevent violent extremism through supporting heritage, through supporting diversity."

On cooperation between China and UNESCO, Bokova said that the relationship has developed substantially. China already boasts 50 inscribed World Heritages, and has co-organized successful events on creativity and education with the UN agency.

"China's also supporting some of our projects in the least-developed parts of the world, including in Pakistan, in Afghanistan and in western Africa. I think all these bring a lot of substance, and a lot of very concrete examples of how jointly we can change the world for the better," she added.

The UNESCO chief also thanked China for backing the resolution adopted on March 24 by the UN Security Council on protecting cultural heritages amid conflicts, calling it a "landmark decision" that puts the importance of cultural heritages on the global political agenda.

Towards the end of the interview, Bokova cited a Chinese proverb to depict her expectation for the Belt and Road Initiative.

"*One tree does not make a forest, and one string does not make music. The moral is that we need a broad international cooperation to bring prosperity to the world,*" she said.

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## samsara

*Road to prosperity: Freight train from Russia travels 7,000 km **to China's underdeveloped inland Ganzhou, Jiangxi Province.*​










*Freight train connects Russia with China's revolutionary heartland*

Source: Xinhua | 2017-04-24 11:03:26 | Editor: MJ

*NANCHANG, April 24 (Xinhua)* -- A freight train connecting Russia with Ganzhou, Jiangxi Province, arrived in the inland city Sunday, bringing Russian goods to the former revolutionary heartland of the Communist Party of China.





The locations of Kansk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia and Ganzhou, Jiangxi Province, China​The journey started from *Kansk*, where buses first transported 38 containers more than 260 km to Bazaiha, followed *by a train journey of more than 7,000 km*, before reaching *Ganzhou* in eastern China.

Ganzhou is an inland area with a complex landscape. It was important in early revolutionary activities due to its remote mountain ranges, but its wartime geographical advantages have now become a stumbling block in development.

The government tried to push regional development in the past few decades, but Ganzhou won no major projects or key investment due to its geography, resulting in slow, sometimes nonexistent, industrial growth.

Many people in Ganzhou are still living in poverty.

The train is expected to bring resources from Europe and boost local development.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-04/24/c_136231657.htm

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## TaiShang

*New light on old money*
By Wang Kaihao | China Daily | Updated: 2017-04-25 07:23




More than 500 coins from olden-day China and about 100 statues from places along the ancient Silk Road are displayed at a Beijing museum. [Photo provided to China Daily]

The exhibits are small and eroded, not only by sand, but by time. As the ancient empires along the Silk Road faded into obscurity, these surviving coins are remaining witnesses of the booming communication on that legendary Eurasian trade route.

The event, Coins Have Two Sides, West and East: Exhibition of Currencies on Ancient Silk Road was launched on Thursday at Network of International Cultural Exchange Gallery, which is affiliated to the Ministry of Culture.

At the show, more than 500 coins from ancient China and about 100 ancient statues from places along the land and sea routes, respectively, are displayed.

The exhibits range from copper coins with square holes from the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD220) to gold coins from the Byzantine Empire besides items from today's Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and India.

The exhibition hall is like a microcosm of economic history in the ancient world.




More than 500 coins from olden-day China and about 100 statues from places along the ancient Silk Road are displayed at a Beijing museum. [Photo provided to China Daily]


The coins are on loan from Jin Jiadong, 67, who is based in Nanchang, capital of Jiangxi province.

Jin, who has been collecting coins for at least the past 30 years, owns more 10,000 items, which are displayed at a private museum in Nanchang.

"Some coins lack high economic value but contain very important historical information," says Jin.

"When you set out to systematically look for certain types of coins, you find many voids in your collection. That encouraged me to communicate more with overseas collectors," he says.

According to him, more than 200 exhibits are from ancient China's central kingdoms, and about 60 are from Xiyu (the western regions), a term used to describe the numerous regimes, which existed from the third century BC to the eighth century AD in today's Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, and Central Asia.






More than 500 coins from olden-day China and about 100 statues from places along the ancient Silk Road are displayed at a Beijing museum. [Photo provided to China Daily]


The exhibition is a part of a series of displays on the Silk Road at the gallery.

In March, an exhibition on the Mogao Caves, a crossroads on the Silk Road in Dunhuang, Gansu province, was staged there, at the start of its tour around the world.

The coin event is also scheduled to be taken to countries along the Silk Road, as part of China's Belt and Road Initiative.

He Ruzhen, who launched the program, says: "In ancient times, Chinese people used porcelain and tea to trade in goods along the Silk Road before using money. Today, we'd like to use these cultural linkages to stir emotional resonance among people in countries along the Belt and Road. More cultural exhibitions will help."

Contact the writer at wangkaihao@chinadaily.com.cn


*If you go*

Coins Have Two Sides, West and East: Exhibition of Currencies on Ancient Silk Road

10 am to 5 pm, through May 21, Mondays closed. Network of International Cultural Exchange Gallery, 83 Beiheyan Dajie (Avenue), Dongcheng district, Beijing.

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## samsara

*The Very First London-Yiwu cargo train carrying British products enters China*

Source: Xinhua | 2017-04-25 | Editor: Mengjie















Photo taken on April 24, 2017 shows containers full of British products carried by the first London-Yiwu cargo train at the Alataw Pass in northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. The cross-continent freight, loaded with containers carrying products including milk powder and soft drinks, left London, capital of Britain, earlier this month for Yiwu in east China's Zhejiang Pvovince. *The 12,000-kilometer journey passes through nine countries in 18 days.* (Xinhua/Zhang Yongheng)

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## TaiShang

*Dubai cashes in on Belt & Road*
By Chai Hua in Shenzhen, Guangdong | China Daily | Updated: 2017-04-26






The futuristic cityscape of Dubai. [Photo/Agencies]


Dubai's Multi Commodities Center, the largest free trade zone in the United Arab Emirates, has seen a *strong surge in the number of Chinese companies as the Belt and Road Initiative drives* new business opportunities.

Registrations of Chinese companies at the DMCC have *grown by an average of 46 percent* annually over the past five years.

"The number of Chinese companies setting up in Dubai and DMCC is on the rise," said Chief Executive Officer Gautam Sashittal. *"But it is still a small portion of our 13,500 registered companies in total".*

Located in the middle of the Maritime Silk Road, the zone has attracted around 150 Chinese companies since its establishment in 2002.

The majority of Chinese companies already there are large corporates involved in infrastructure and technology, *including Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology Co Ltd, Hisense Group, Sinopec Group, China Harbour Engineering Co and China State Construction Engineering Corp.*

He said he believes the Belt and Road Initiative will drive the growth even more rapidly and provide new opportunities for small and medium-sized companies and startups in the trading and services sectors.

"With the increased digitalization of trade, international commerce will grow by $29 trillion over the next decade, bringing about 350 million new businesses into international trade," he said. "And that's where we are keen to grow trade relationships."

On Monday, a DMCC delegation visited Shenzhen, home of 1.4 million SMEs in Guangdong province, for the first time. "We are here because it is the hub for technology and new innovations," he explained.

In addition, the DMCC plans to build a new coffee center which is expected to export around 140,000 metric tons of Chinese Arabica beans from Yunnan province to Dubai and then re-export them globally.

Cong Hongbin, vice-chairman of international relations at strategic advisory company Falcon and Associates, said the petroleum and natural gas industry accounts for about just 2 percent of Dubai's GDP, while the majority comes from the service sector, such as trade, logistics and tourism.

He said the city not only can benefit from the Belt and Road Initiative but also is an ideal pivot to support its development.

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## JSCh

*China-invested bitumen plant in Kazakhstan benefits local residents*
By Ma Xiaoning, Zhou Hanbo, Xie Yahong and Liu Junguo from People’s Daily (People's Daily) 15:33, April 26, 2017

Thanks to its cooperation with China under the framework of “Belt and Road” initiative, Kazakhstan’s dream to develop its own petrochemical processing industry has come true. After establishing Aktau asphalt plant, the largest direct investment project in non-resource sectors between the two countries, the Central Asian nation is no longer dependent on asphalt imports.

Co-invested by KazMunayGas and China's CITIC Group, the plant is Kazakhstan’s first modern oil processing company, which has brought considerable benefits to local residents.

Though oil-rich, Kazakhstan sees a relatively backward oil refining industry, with many downstream petrochemical products relying on imports for a long time.

Before 2014, nearly 90 percent of bitumen in Kazakhstan was imported. Thanks to the “Belt and Road” initiative, the country’s vision to foster its own petrochemical processing industry has realized.

The plant was put into production three months after Chinese President Xi Jinping concluded his historic visit to Central Asia in September 2013.

Before kicking off his visit, Xi told a Kazakh media that China and Kazakhstan should enhance cooperation in non-resource sectors such as chemical industry.

Kazakh President Nursultan Nazarbayev, when announcing the operation of the plant via video connection, expressed his gratitude to Chinese enterprises, saying that Kazakhstan “is finally able to construct its roads independently.” On a following inspection tour to the plant, the president even compared the bitumen plant to “his own child”.

“The plant has not only satisfied domestic demand, this year it started to export bitumen to Uzbekistan,” 63-year-old manufacturing technician Groba told the People’s Daily with pride.

Groba added that no disqualification has been reported in environmental inspections over the past three years, as the environmental standard of Kazakhstan is much stricter than that of the EU.

Zhou Hanzhang, chief mechanic of the plant, said the plant’s technologies and equipment are both imported from China, with qualities above international standards.



_Chinese and Kazakh administrative staffs discuss operation of the Aktau bitumen plant, which is the largest joint venture in non-resource sectors between China and Kazakhstan. (Photo by Zhou Hanbo from People’s Daily)_

CITIC Group, when investing in Kazakhstan, has been following Xi’s requirements on international cooperation in production capacity.

“China will promote international production capacity cooperation, offer high-quality, advanced and environmental-friendly production capacity and technologies to help its partners optimize industrial distribution and raise industrialization,” Xi said.

“The plant has not only enabled me to live a descent life but also provided jobs to over 200 citizens near its location,” said Groba. As a larger number of locals are indirectly working for the plant, it has become a star among the joint ventures in Aktau.

Wang Fuhua, engineer-in-chief of the instrument system, said that his workmates and he are all known to the locals, who will always express their willingness to apply for jobs at the factory. “We feel very proud to work here,” Wang said.

Abizhanov, director of the product and material workshop, said that he hopes his daughter to learn at China University of Petroleum in the future where she can not only get specialized knowledge but also learn Chinese language. Abizhanov’s daughter is currently studying petrochemical engineering in Minsk, capital of Belarus.

“With the accelerated construction of the Silk Road Economic Belt, China will increase (its) investment in Kazakhstan. Given such background, she will embrace a better career prospect if mastering Chinese,” Abizhanov added.

Dispatcher Aman said that he wants to build high-quality roads for his motherland. Aman graduated from China University of Petroleum in Qingdao, Shandong Province and was impressed by the wide and smooth pavements at the school.

“After Kazakhstan's ‘Bright Road’ new economic policy aligns with China’s ‘Belt and Road’ initiative, there will be larger demand for high quality bitumen,” he added.

“As the largest and most professional bitumen manufacturer in Kazakhstan, the plant will not only help build the nation’s bright pathway with domestically produced bitumen, but also pave a bright pathway for my future career,” Aman is confident about the future.

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## ahojunk

*China Focus: What to expect from Belt and Road Forum*
(Xinhua) 15:29, May 01, 2017

BEIJING, May 1 -- The Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation scheduled for mid-May is a high-profile international meeting on the Belt and Road Initiative, a China-proposed trade and infrastructure plan connecting Asia with Europe and Africa.

China will use the forum to build a more open and efficient international cooperation platform and a closer, stronger partnership network as well as to push for a more just, reasonable and balanced international governance system.

Here is what you need to know about the initiative and the upcoming forum.

*-- NEW VISION*

The Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation, which takes the theme "strengthening international cooperation and co-building the 'Belt and Road' for win-win development," will be held from May 14 to 15 in Beijing. President Xi Jinping will attend the opening ceremony and host a round-table leaders' summit.

The forum has been designed to pool more consensus, identify cooperation directions, push forward the implementation of projects, and improve supporting systems.

*-- HISTORIC LEGACY*

The Belt and Road comprises the land-based Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road, which were put forward for the first time by President Xi in September and October 2013 in his subsequent state visits to Kazakhstan and Indonesia.

Building upon the spirit of the ancient Silk Road -- "peace and cooperation, openness and inclusiveness, mutual learning, and mutual benefits" -- which continues to this day, the initiative targets a modern transnational network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa, with the aim of promoting common development among all parties involved.

*-- INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION*

More than 100 countries and international organizations have already joined the initiative, of which more than 40 have signed cooperation agreements with China.

The United Nations General Assembly, the UN Security Council and APEC have all incorporated or reflected Belt and Road cooperation in their resolutions and documents.

*-- FACILITIES CONNECTIVITY*

A series of major transport, energy and communication projects, including the multi-purpose road-rail Padma Bridge in Bangladesh, the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, and China Railway Express trains to Europe - have witnessed breakthroughs over the past three years and more.

*-- UNIMPEDED TRADE*

Trade between China and countries along the Belt and Road totaled 6.3 trillion yuan (about 913 billion U.S. dollars) in 2016, more than a quarter of China's total trade value.

Chinese businesses have invested more than 50 billion U.S. dollars in countries along the Belt and Road, and helped build 56 economic and trade cooperation zones in 20 of those countries, generating nearly 1.1 billion U.S. dollars in tax revenue and 180,000 local jobs.

*-- FINANCIAL INTEGRATION*

China has dedicated 40 billion U.S. dollars to a Silk Road Fund and set up the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) in 2015 to provide financing for infrastructure improvement in Asia.

So far, the AIIB has seen its membership increase to 70, with the multilateral development bank's total lending amounting to over 2 billion dollars.

*-- ECONOMIC CORRIDORS*

China is also pushing forward six economic corridors in the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative, namely, the New Eurasian Continental Bridge, the China-Mongolia-Russia corridor, the China-Central Asia-West Asia corridor, the China-Indochina Peninsula corridor, the China-Pakistan corridor, and the Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar corridor.

Together, the six corridors form a trade and transport network across Eurasia, laying a solid foundation for regional and trans regional development plans.

*-- PEOPLE-TO-PEOPLE BOND*

While the "hard connection" of rail lines and ports brings countries closer through ease of travel and logistics, "soft connections" will bring their people together.

On June 22, 2016, during a speech at the Legislative Chamber of the Uzbek Supreme Assembly in Tashkent, Xi called for building a green, healthy, intelligent and peaceful Silk Road, laying out the future of the initiative.

*-- GLOBALIZATION*

The significance of the forum is especially timely given the rise of anti-globalization.

At a time when certain Western powers are retreating into protectionism and isolation, China has been promoting the globalization of the economy in a spirit of openness and inclusiveness. China will unswervingly continue to open up and push globalization with Chinese wisdom.

*-- WIDE PARTICIPATION*

More than 1,200 people will attend the forum scheduled for mid-May, including officials, scholars, entrepreneurs, representatives of financial institutions and media organizations from 110 nations, as well as representatives from more than 60 international organizations.

They include heads of state and government from at least 28 countries, as well as UN secretary-general Antonio Guterres, World Bank president Jim Yong Kim, and managing director of the International Monetary Fund Christine Lagarde.

*-- CONCRETE OUTCOMES*

Results of the forum are expected to range from consensus building to specific measures on implementation. China expects to sign cooperative documents with nearly 20 countries and more than 20 international organizations at the event.

China will also work with countries along the routes on nearly 20 action plans concerning infrastructure, energy and resources, production capacity, trade and investment.

The round-table leaders' summit, to be held on May 15, will issue a document defining goals and principles and refining cooperative measures.

During the forum, all parties will identify major cooperative projects, set up working groups and establish an investment cooperation center. They will sign financing agreements to support their cooperative projects.

China will work with all parties on a set of measures, including an improved financial cooperation mechanism, a cooperation platform for science, technology and environmental protection, and enhanced exchanges and training of talent.

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## onebyone

_*For ‘One Belt, One Road,’ China Casts Madagascar as a ‘Bridge’ to Africa*

Editor’s note: This article is part of an ongoing WPR series about China’s One Belt, One Road infrastructure initiative, also known as the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road._

In January, Chinese Foreign Minster Wang Yi started his annual Africa tour with a stop in Madagascar’s capital, Antananarivo—a sign of the importance Beijing places on Madagascar’s role in the One Belt, One Road initiative. Last month, during Malagasy President Hery Rajaonarimampianina’s state visit to Beijing, the two countries signed several agreements to accelerate Chinese investment in energy, aviation, transportation, ports and airport construction. In an email interview, Dr. Cornelia Tremann, an expert on Sino-Malagasy relations who is now a researcher at the West Africa Research Center in Dakar, Senegal, details the historical ties that provide the foundation for this relationship. ...

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...-china-casts-madagascar-as-a-bridge-to-africa

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## onebyone

China’s ambitious One Belt, One Road (OBOR) initiative is likely to have “modest” short-term impact on total investment and overall economic growth in the vast region, says Oxford Economics.
Launched by President Xi Jinping in 2013, OBOR aims to create an infrastructure network by building roads, ports and railway tracks along ancient trading routes that will span 65 countries and connect some 60% of the global population.

“While it’s hard to quantify the total number of projects and amount of financing, the China Development Bank alone has reserved US$890 billion (S$1.24 trillion) for over 900 projects, highlighting the magnitude of this undertaking,” says Oxford Economics’ He Tianjie and Louis Kuijs in a research briefing on April 27.

The Asian Development Bank (ADB) estimates that OBOR would need an annual infrastructural investment of US$1.7 trillion until 2030.

Excess capacity in China’s steel industry ranges from 250 to 450 million tonnes per year, while the economists estimate that total annual OBOR spending would only generate around 22 million tonnes of annual steel demand at current prices.

China Telecom Global has its sights set on expanding its data centre business across the ‘One Belt, One Road’ region, after signing an agreement with UK data centre owner Global Switch and Chinese data centre operator Daily Tech.






The initiative is aimed at building roads, power plants and other infrastructure projects to promote trade and transportation, with funding needs expected to reach US$8 trillion through to 2020.


http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/0...any-trillions-in-investment-in-the-2020s.html

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## onebyone

*China's Belt-Road Plan May Top $500 Billion, Credit Suisse Says*
Bloomberg News
4 พฤษภาคม 2560 15:24 GMT+7

Initiative’s future seen as promising amid U.S. isolationism
Xi convening 28 world leaders for summit May 14-15 in Beijing





A Chinese worker at a Sindh Engro Coal Mining Co. site in the Thar desert, Pakistan.

Photographer: Asim Hafeez/Bloomberg
China could pour more than half a trillion dollars into its Belt and Road Initiative, and the push for greater global influence looks even more promising with U.S. President Donald Trump pulling back from engagement, according to Credit Suisse Group AG.

The plan could funnel investments worth $313 billion to $502 billion into 62 Belt-Road countries over the next five years, Hong Kong-based analyst Shen Hu wrote in a report Tuesday. In Africa, China may may make additional investments of as much as $79 billion in 13 countries, she said.

Most funds may flow into India, Russia, Indonesia, Iran, Egypt, the Philippines and Pakistan, Shen and other analysts said. They added that the biggest beneficiaries could be mid-size Chinese construction and machinery companies and Asian infrastructure firms with close ties to the country’s investment.

"Its future seems even more promising" as the White House pullback creates opportunities, Shen wrote. "China’s overseas investment can be more significant for the world, with its growing influence and the U.S. administration potentially taking a more isolationist turn."

Chinese President Xi Jinping, who will convene a Belt and Road summitwith 28 world leaders May 14-15 in Beijing, has embraced a new role as an advocate for free trade after Trump’s election, working to boost China’s role in global governance. Xi defended trade before the World Economic Forum in Davos this year, and Premier Li Keqiang echoed the theme in an essay for Bloomberg Businessweek, saying China will champion economic openness and trade.

Read More: Xi Takes on Trump in Rebuttal Against Protectionism

The analysts estimated the size of the initiative, which they expect will last at least five years but likely as long as a decade, by scoring demand and supply factors, focusing on infrastructure. China may give certain countries preferential treatment to serve its own interests, such as bilateral relations, resources demand and the soundness of investment, they said.

The analysts included a caveat, adding that due to the uncertainties of the initiative, "there’s not much meaningful discussion about how large the initiative could really be."

Chinese shares that could benefit include construction machinery producer Sany Heavy Industry Co., Sinotruk Hong Kong Ltd., a unit of China’s first maker of heavy trucks, China Communications Construction Co., and Zoomlion Heavy Industry Science and Technology Co., the analysts said. They also cited Malaysian civil engineering company Gamuda Bhd, Indonesian state construction company PT Wijaya Karya, and Pakistan’s Lucky Cement Ltd.

_— With assistance by Jeff Kearns
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...d-plan-may-top-500-billion-credit-suisse-says
_

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## Shotgunner51

*China Minsheng-led Asia consortium mulls creation of up to $15b fund*






May 5, 2017: A consortium of financial institutions in Asia, led by Chinese conglomerate China *Minsheng Investment Group*, is planning to set up a mega fund worth $10-15 billion. The other funds in the consortium include *Zhongtai International* in the Chinese mainland, Hong Kong-based *Sun Hung Kai*, *AMTD Group* and *BlackPine*, Japan-based *Orix Corp*, South Korea-based *Mirae Asset Global Investments* and *IndoChina Capital* from Southeast Asia.

According to a statement by *Asia Institutional Investors Alliance* led by *CMIG*, institutional investors from many countries and regions including Mainland China, Hong Kong of China, Japan, South Korea, Israel, India, and Southeast Asia, will establish an *Asian Institutional Investor Joint Overseas Investment Fund*.

*The Hong Kong-based fund will be formed to tap new economy business opportunities on China’s One Belt, One Road initiative route.* The Belt and Road Initiative is a development strategy and framework, proposed by the Chinese government, that focuses on connectivity and cooperation among countries primarily between China and the rest of Eurasia. The fund will focus on investment opportunities in sectors including aged care and healthcare, high-tech, fintech, and emerging industries in developed economies and countries alongside the Belt and Road.

In October 2016, CMIG established AIIA in partnership with *China-ASEAN Investment Corporation Fund*, *JP Morgan* and *UBS*. It has gathered *Asian sovereign wealth funds*, banks, long-term funds, and private equity funds, aiming to create a globalized institutional investor platform with regional features.

“The establishment of the Fund will further the cooperation and exchange among AIIA members, and then bring about an “Asian force” into the international capital market,” according to an official statement.

*Founded in Shanghai in 2014 with a registered capital of 50 billion yuan ($7.3 billion), CMIG comprises 59 private enterprises, including Giant Interactive Group backed by billionaire Shi Yuzhu, Suning Commerce Group and China Oceanwide Holdings Group*.

Read more at: http://www.dealstreetasia.com/stories/71995-71995/

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## onebyone

_Editor’s note: This article is part of an ongoing WPR series about China’s One Belt, One Road infrastructure initiative, also known as the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road. _

Last month, the U.K. inaugurated the first freight train service to China—a 17-day, 7,500-mile journey from Essex to Zhejiang province. A cargo route was earlier established linking China and Spain. The milestones are reminders of Chinese ambitions for European involvement in its One Belt, One Road initiative. In an email interview, Andrew Small, senior trans-Atlantic fellow with the Asia Program of the German Marshall Fund of the United States, explains why European officials are generally enthusiastic about the initiative and describes potential barriers to the implementation of individual projects. ...






http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...rope-embrace-china-s-one-belt-one-road-vision

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## samsara

*Book on Belt and Road stories published in 7 languages*

Source: Xinhua | 2017-05-05 |Editor: Yamei





A book on the real life stories of the people along the Belt and Road routes, the first of its kind,
was recently published in seven different languages ahead of an international forum
to mark the great initiative later this month. (Xinhua)​
*BEIJING, May 5 (Xinhua) -- A book on the real life stories of the people along the Belt and Road routes, the first of its kind, was recently published here in seven different languages ahead of an international forum to mark the great initiative later this month.*

The book, titled "*Belt and Road: People with Stories*," contains a total of 100 stories selected from the reports of China's Xinhua News Agency and thousands of articles written by people around the world.

*The Belt and Road Initiative*, comprising the *Silk Road Economic Belt* and the *21st Century Maritime Silk Road*, was proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping in 2013 with an aim to revive ancient trade routes to link China with numerous countries in Asia, Europe and Africa through trade and infrastructure networks.

The chosen stories, available in *Arabic, English, French, Spanish, Russian, and Portuguese*, speak about how the initiative has brought tangible benefits to the general public along the two routes and in the world at large.

From a Kyrgyz farmer lifting his family out of poverty by growing Chinese corn, to an Ecuadorian hotel staffer surviving a deadly earthquake thanks to Chinese technology, the book tells the emotional and memorable tales of the ordinary people to reflect a bigger picture of the initiative, which is now being advanced in Asia, Africa, Europe and the American continent.

By narrating these detailed memories, it also tries to shed light on the Chinese pursuit of win-win cooperation and common development.

*The book is a joint effort of Xinhua, the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission, and the Confucius Institute Headquarters.*

Its publication by Xinhua Publishing House came ahead of the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation to be held in Beijing on May 14-15. According to the Chinese foreign ministry, some 28 heads of state and government leaders will attend the event.

Please click _here_ to download "Belt and Road: People with Stories"

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## Fledgingwings

WW3 shall take place sooner than this begins.


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## samsara

*Belt, Road not a 'one-man show'*

By Wang Qingyun - China Daily - Saturday, May 6, 2017, 11:34






China does not want to "put on a one-man show" with the Belt and Road Initiative, and it is not true that the initiative is "controlled" by China, Beijing said on Friday.

"_*If the Belt and Road really is controlled by China, and if everyone really has no way to share the benefits, I think they wouldn't be rushing in to participate,*_" said Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang, pointing out that *delegates from 110 countries will be coming to the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation. The forum will be held in Beijing on May 14 and 15.*

Geng made the remarks in response to a question at a daily news conference regarding opinions among some that the initiative, instead of being "win-win", was China's solo play. "These are misunderstandings made totally out of stereotypical thinking," he said.

*READ MORE:* *Belt and Road Forum a historic test*

The Belt and Road Initiative, though proposed by China, is a project that needs to be built by all participants, the spokesman told the news conference.

He said China sticks to "extensive consultation, joint contribution and shared benefits".

China is currently consulting with countries that will attend the forum about an outcome document, the spokesman said, adding that the document will be a result of "extensive consultation" that will draw on the wisdom and consensus of all participants.

*ALSO READ:* *HK prepares to embrace Belt and Road Initiative*

Geng said China will work with all sides to make the forum a successful one that will further build consensus and lay out plans for implementing the initiative.

http://www.chinadailyasia.com/nation/2017-05/06/content_15609018.html

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## Shotgunner51

*One Belt, One Road: The Silk Road*
by Moritz Rudolf






https://www.merics.org/en/merics-analysis/infographicchina-mapping/china-mapping/

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## onebyone

BEIJING (Reuters) - China's Foreign Ministry said on Tuesday that North Korea will be sending a delegation to next week's summit on President Xi Jinping's ambitious new Silk Road project.

Leaders from 28 countries will attend the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing on May 14-15, an event orchestrated to promote Xi's vision of expanding links between Asia, Africa and Europe underpinned by billions of dollars in infrastructure investment.

"According to what I understand, the North Korean side will send an official delegation to relevant events at the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation that will shortly be taking place," spokesman Geng Shuang told a daily briefing.

He did not elaborate.

Despite Chinese anger at North Korea's repeated nuclear and missile tests, China remains the isolated state's most important economic and diplomatic backer, even as Beijing has signed up for tough U.N. sanctions against Pyongyang.

China has over the years tried to coax North Korea into cautious, export-oriented economic reforms, rather than sabre rattling and nuclear tests, but to little avail.

(Reporting by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Simon Cameron-Moore)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-north-korea-sending-delegation-silk-road-085635612.html

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## Stuttgart001

Seems the persuasion of China works recently.


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## TaiShang

onebyone said:


> BEIJING (Reuters) - China's Foreign Ministry said on Tuesday that North Korea will be sending a delegation to next week's summit on President Xi Jinping's ambitious new Silk Road project.
> 
> Leaders from 28 countries will attend the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing on May 14-15, an event orchestrated to promote Xi's vision of expanding links between Asia, Africa and Europe underpinned by billions of dollars in infrastructure investment.
> 
> "According to what I understand, the North Korean side will send an official delegation to relevant events at the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation that will shortly be taking place," spokesman Geng Shuang told a daily briefing.
> 
> He did not elaborate.
> 
> Despite Chinese anger at North Korea's repeated nuclear and missile tests, China remains the isolated state's most important economic and diplomatic backer, even as Beijing has signed up for tough U.N. sanctions against Pyongyang.
> 
> China has over the years tried to coax North Korea into cautious, export-oriented economic reforms, rather than sabre rattling and nuclear tests, but to little avail.
> 
> (Reporting by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Simon Cameron-Moore)
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-north-korea-sending-delegation-silk-road-085635612.html



China should also make sure that the developing plan to build a Northeast Asia super grid include North Korea rather than by-passing it.

There are currently two competing visions: One goes across North to South Korea and then into Japan; the other from China to South Korea via undersea UHVDC line and then into Japan.

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## Stuttgart001

TaiShang said:


> China should also make sure that the developing plan to build a Northeast Asia super grid include North Korea rather than by-passing it.
> 
> There are currently two competing visions: One goes across North to South Korea and then into Japan; the other from China to South Korea via undersea UHVDC line and then into Japan.


Of course China would like to make NK linked to the rest of the world provided Kim agreed to open the door of his state.
But it is very hard to do that ,cause Kim's dictatorship would be of little probability to maintain, as soon as the door is opened , I am afraid.

That is why Kim Jong un's father withdrew all the corporations with SOR and China all of a sudden the second he realized the threaten brought by interaction of between North Korean with foreigners.


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## TaiShang



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## TaiShang

*Vietnamese president kicks off China visit, to attend Belt and Road forum*
Xinhua Published: 2017-05-11 14:58:34






Vietnamese President Tran Dai Quang and his wife arrive in Beijing on Thursday May 11, 2017. [Photo: cri.cn]

Vietnamese President Tran Dai Quang and his wife kick off a five-day state visit to China on Thursday, where he will also attend the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation.

The visit and attendance at the forum is made at the invitation of Chinese President Xi Jinping, who is also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee.

Quang's trip aims to maintain the development momentum of the cooperation between the two countries and parties, increase political trust and bilateral cooperation efficiency in economy, trade and investment, and popularize Vietnam's investment attraction policies for Chinese businesses, Vietnam's state-run news agency VNA reported on Thursday.

*Vietnam supports initiatives and efforts to bolster economic and regional connectivity in the common interests of countries and the region*, the VNA said.






Vietnamese President Tran Dai Quang and his wife arrive in Beijing on Thursday May 11, 2017. [Photo: cri.cn]

Over the years, Vietnam and China have maintained regular high-level visits to advance their comprehensive strategic partnership of cooperation.

The two countries have also expanded cooperation in various sectors -- including economy and trade, investment and tourism -- at ministerial and local levels.

*While China remains the largest trading partner of Vietnam, Vietnam surpassed Malaysia last year to become the largest trading partner of China in the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.*

According to Chinese statistics, two-way trade between Beijing and Hanoi reached 87.8 billion U.S. dollars in the first 11 months of 2016, an increase of 1.6 percent year on year.

In the same period, *Vietnam's export to China amounted to 32.96 billion dollars, up 20.8 percent year on year, and its trade deficit with China fell by 31 percent*.

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## JSCh

*Science cooperation network in works*
By Zhang Zhihao | China Daily | Updated: 2017-05-10 09:59

China aims to complete a cooperative network in science and technology for countries involved in the Belt and Road Initiative by 2030, it was announced Tuesday.

The network will be indispensable to the development of science and innovation by the middle of this century, according to Bai Chunli, president of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, who spoke at a news briefing in Beijing.

"Since the initiative was proposed in 2013, the academy has expanded its global cooperation and outreach," he said. "We're providing technological support and services to help countries tackle practical issues."

The academy has launched the International Outreach Initiative and is cooperating closely with the World Academy of Sciences for the advancement of science in developing countries, a UNESCO program based in Trieste, Italy.

The Chinese Academy of Sciences has signed more than 200 international cooperation agreements with 60 countries. In addition, more than 600 of its scholars are working with international organizations or major science publications.

It has also trained about 1,800 people from Belt and Road countries, focusing on common issues such as climate change, water security, green energy and disaster prevention and relief, Bai said.

"Many countries have fragile ecosystems, and China also has similar issues," he said. "Our research aims to help. At the same time, advanced technologies from other countries, like sandstorm prevention, can benefit us."

The academy is setting up nine overseas centers for science and technology cooperation and has launched more than 20 major science projects to address common challenges for Belt and Road countries, such as weather surveillance and environmental protection.

"These are parts of the academy's international science cooperation network, which focuses on strategic counseling, technology cooperation, training and the commercialization of scientific achievements," Bai said.

More than 30,000 foreign scholars visit the academy to take part in exchanges and cooperation every year, and 2,000 now work at the academy, in most academic fields.

China has attracted more than 1,500 foreign students from developing countries－in some cases offering scholarships. The Chinese academy plans to train about 500 master's and doctoral students a year, according to Cao Jinghua, director of international cooperation at the academy.

"Talent forms the foundations for exchanges and cooperation," Cao said.

"We hope our programs will equip foreign students with the skills to make a contribution in their countries, which will benefit the initiative in the long run."

The Chinese academy will continue to expand the cooperation network based on its advantages, and eventually push it onto the world stage, he said.

So far, 22 countries have joined the academy's initial framework. "We welcome other countries' participation in the network and taking part in the construction of the Belt and Road," Cao said.

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## onebyone

Ahead of the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing on May 14-15, which Indonesian President Joko Widodo is expected to attend, CGTN's Aixinjueluo Bei spoke to the country's consul general in Shanghai to learn more about how the initiative can enhance infrastructure and e-commerce cooperation between the two countries.
After two years of negotiations, China confirmed in April that it will build Indonesia's first high-speed railway between Jakarta and Bandung. The project is the first of its kind in Southeast Asia. It is also the first time China has allowed a state-owned company, China Railway, to fully immerse itself in an overseas project, including design and construction.




VCG Photo
The railway is expected to be finished in 2019 and will shorten the traveling time between the two cities from more than three hours to 40 minutes.
“Economically, it will really boost growth between Bandung and Jakarta. And along this railway road it's expected to have four or five special (economic) zones so you can imagine the rapid development of the economy between these two cities,” said Indonesia's consul general in Shanghai, Siti Nugraha Mauludiah.




VCG Photo
China was Indonesia's ninth largest overseas investor in 2015, but today it is third after Singapore and Malaysia. While infrastructure building is sure to be a major subject going forward, Indonesia is also seeking cooperation with China in other industries, such as e-commerce.
“Look at China now, the small, medium enterprises are thriving because of e-commerce. And one thing from e-commerce that we have to learn is not only information technology but also how China develops the logistics industry, the distribution industry,” noted Mauludiah.




VCG Photo
The Indonesian Chamber of Commerce in China succeeded in bringing more than 100 Chinese investors to Indonesia in just 18 months with most of the projects involving infrastructure. But e-commerce is the next step, says the chamber's chairman.
To further develop infrastructure and e-commerce between China and Indonesia, the first Indonesia Week will be held on May 20-26 in Shanghai, with an Indonesia Infrastructure Investment Forum and an Indonesia Financial Sector Seminar.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d557a4d79677a4d/share_p.html

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## Shotgunner51

*Tanzania - the Belt and Road Initiative and China-Tanzania Relations*
11 May 2017, opinion By Dr Lu Youqing

As early as two thousand years ago, China opened up a network of trade routes both on land and at sea. The land route started from Chinese inland cities and reached the Mediterranean countries through Central Asia.

The maritime route started from China's South-East coastal areas and reached East Africa and Europe through Indo-China Peninsula, South China Sea Islands, the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. At that time, silk was the landmark export commodity of China, therefore, the two routes were named 'Silk Road'.

In 2013, Chinese President Xi Jinping launched a major initiative to jointly build "the Silk Road Economic Belt" and the "21st Century Maritime Silk Road", which was to revitalise the two time-honoured land and marine for international trade. Later, China merged the two initiatives, and named it 'The Belt and Road'.

It was not empty talk. The 'Belt and Road Initiative' is a full set of visible and tangible measures. China aims at driving the relevant regions to realise common development and prosperity, speed up regional integration, narrow the development gap and increase complementarity of each country's advantage, in the five major areas of policy coordination, facilities connectivity, unimpeded trade, financial integration and people-to-people bonds.

*Enhancing policy coordination*

This is an important guarantee for implementing 'The Belt and Road Initiative'. We hope all participant countries will enhance political mutual trust, build a multilevel inter-governmental policy communication mechanism and dock their economic development strategies with each other. They are also expected to jointly work out plans and measures for regional cooperation, negotiate to solve cooperation-related issues, and provide policy support for the implementation of practical cooperation and large-scale projects.

*Facilities connectivity*

This is a priority area for implementing the initiative. On the basis of respecting each other's sovereignty and security concerns, countries along 'The Belt and Road' should improve the connectivity of their infrastructure construction plans and technical standard systems; jointly push forward the construction of international trunk passageways, including railways, roads, airways, oil and gas pipelines, cross-border power-transmission routes and cross-border communications trunk line networks.

*Investment and trade cooperation*

This is a major task in building 'The Belt and Road'. We should strive to improve investment and trade facilitation, and remove investment and trade barriers for the creation of a sound business environment.

We will discuss with countries and regions along the Belt and Road on opening free trade areas and industrial parks, so as to unleash the potential for expanded cooperation. In accordance with the principles of mutual complementarity and win-win outcome, we should deepen cooperation in agriculture, forestry, animal husbandry and fisheries. We should increase cooperation in the exploration and development of coal, oil, gas, metal minerals and other conventional energy sources.

*Financial integration*

This is an important underpinning for implementing the Belt and Road Initiative. China hopes to make joint efforts to establish the *Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank* and *Brics Development Bank*, set up and put into operation the *Silk Road Fund* as early as possible. We should build a regional financial risk early-warning system, and create an exchange and cooperation mechanism of addressing cross-border risks and crisis. We should give full play to the role of the Silk Road Fund and that of sovereign wealth funds of countries along the Belt and Road, and encourage commercial equity investment funds and private funds to participate in the construction of key projects of the Initiative.

*People-to-people bonds*

This provides the public support for implementing the initiative. We should carry forward the spirit of friendly cooperation of the Silk Road by promoting extensive cultural and academic exchanges, personnel exchanges and cooperation, media cooperation, youth and women exchanges and volunteer services, so as to win public support for deepening bilateral and multilateral cooperation.

Started from scratch in 2013, the Belt and Road Initiative has been growing healthily and gained much unexpected progress and outcome. It has won the support of more than 100 countries and international organisations, and has become an extensive international consensus.

It has been written into resolutions of many international bodies including the *UN General Assembly* and *UN Security Council*. Currently, we are building the economic corridor in Euro-Asia. We have also witnessed greater connectivity, growing trade and investments and steady progress in major cooperation programs.

Since January 1st this year,* China-Europe Express Rail* was launched and trains were seen crossing 8 countries within 18 days, making it a latest wonder along the Belt and Road. Upon hearing the news, President Magufuli said to me that this direct rail link between China and UK is a remarkable and imaginable achievement in the world. It is one of the greatest feat in the history of transportation.

Actually, building *intercontinental railway networks* is a part of the Belt and Road Initiative. It will greatly promote trade with China, which in turn will help the global economy to grow.

Mr Lu Jianing, chairman of the Far East Branch of Russian Academy of Science, said that the Belt and Road Initiative is different from other development programs of the west. It offers a better option for the world than the old globalisation under the control of US.

*World development, security*

It injects positive energy to global economy. Due to the deep impact of the financial crisis, the sluggishness of global economic recovery, plus downturn of investment and trade, the growth of major economies are slowing down. Meanwhile, protectionism, isolationism and unilateralism are on the rise. Tide is rising against *globalisation*. These trends pose a great threat to global economy.

It is at such a difficult moment for the world when western powers are struggling with their own economy, China launched the Belt and Road Initiative, which is like a warm current that brought new hope for global recovery.

The Belt and Road Initiative conforms to the trend featuring a multi-polar world, a globalised economy, diversified culture and informationised society.

Advocating the spirit of open up and cooperation, the Initiative is committed to maintain a liberalisation of international trade and an open world economy. It will enhance the confidence of all countries on cooperation, dispel the dark cloud of economic stagnation and inject new energy to global economic growth.

*New economic cooperation model*

It is a brand-new international cooperation model for many reasons. It champions the ideal of common development. It aims at seeking convergence of state interest, destiny and responsibility. It focuses on making a bigger pie for all and pursues win-win outcome.

It advocates cooperation based on equality. It upholds the principle of achieving shared growth through discussion and collaboration. All interests are well catered for. There is no hegemonic agenda or political conditions attached, granting full freedom of development to all participants.

It is by no means a China-only project. It is a public product offered by China to the world. It's applicable everywhere and will serve anywhere as a strong drive of economic growth. It reflects a long-term vision of China for global economy, and shows China's strong sense of responsibility and accountability as a major country in the world.

*Political, economic re-balance*

The old international political and economic order was set up by western powers based on their financial, technological and rule advantages. The old order limits the growth of developing countries and widens the gap between the South and North. The participants of the Belt and Road Initiative are mostly developing or least developed countries.

Through this initiative, China will share with them the dividend of its development and reform, as well as its experiences and lessons learned in growth. *China will also transfer abroad its competitive production capacity and industries with comparative advantages*. This will help narrow the gap between underdeveloped and developed countries, remove bottleneck problems in the development of relevant countries, and greatly improve their own production capacity.

Meanwhile, the initiative encourages cooperation and dialogues among participants, facilitate cooperation based on connectivity, resource-share and complementary advantages. This will create favourable conditions for regional collective rise. We can say that the Belt and Road Initiative is a self-help action featuring unity and self improvement of developing countries, which has a prospect of breaking the wealth disparity and imbalanced regional development in the past, and promote common and balanced development.

*Promotes world and regional peace*

The Belt and Road Initiative features peaceful development. It was initiated on basis of *Five Principles of Peaceful Co-existence* and was branded with 'Peace'. It is against exclusivism. It has no intention to form military alliance. It poses no security threat to any country or region. The initiative champions friendship and cooperation, emphasises the concept of Community of Shared Destiny.

It calls for an enhanced political mutual trust, enlarged open cooperation and will help to alleviate or even solve misunderstandings, differences or conflicts between countries. Today, the international community is troubled by growing non-traditional security threats including terrorism, illegal migration, famine, cross border crimes and environmental degeneration.

Yet the root cause of these problems are poverty and imbalanced development. Should they have decent lives? Who wishes to be a human bomb, flee from hometown, or kill each other? In this sense, this development brings security. Development also holds the master key to all global security challenges.

Priorities for intentional cooperation of the Belt and Road Initiative include economic development, job creation, poverty reduction, livelihood improvement, and environmental protection. It aims at common development, especially in those less developed regions, which in turn, will address the root cause of the security problems in front of human beings.

*Prospect of China-Tanzania cooperation under the framework*

Beijing will host the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation this May. The forum aims at drawing up a blueprint for the future development of the Initiative, better docking each other's development strategies and translating cooperation into more concrete projects. China has invited the Tanzanian government to attend this Forum to discuss cooperation under the Initiative.

Tanzania was invited, not only because it is a historic and natural part of the Maritime Silk Road, and it is a landing point of the Belt and Road in Africa. More importantly, Tanzania was invited because of its special traditional friendship with China built since history.

In 2015, the Chinese government selected Tanzania as a pilot country for China-Africa capacity cooperation. Currently, China is the largest trade partner and project contractor of Tanzania, and a major source of FDI.

A large number of Chinese state-owned and private companies with strong capital, technical and management capacity are taking part in Tanzania's industrialisation. The outcomes of China-Tanzania cooperation can be seen in various sectors of the economic development and all the aspects of people's livelihood in Tanzania.




The *Nyerere Bridge* was built by a Chinese company. It is the largest cable-stayed cross-sea bridge. The project quality was highly commended by President Magufuli. *Tanzanian National ICT Backbone Broadband Network*, constructed by a Chinese company, has brought a leapfrog to Tanzanian network application from none to first-class.

It well bridged the digital gap between Tanzania and developed countries. The natural gas pipeline (*Mtwara–Dar es Salaam Natural Gas Pipeline*; MDNGP), laid down by a Chinese company, helped Tanzania to realise its dream of generating electricity with its own resources.

Besides, more Chinese invested projects will start production in the coming two months, including the largest *ceramic factory *in East Africa with Chinese investment of $80 million, and a *modern steel plant* with an investment of nearly $30 million.

It is fair to say that China-Tanzania capacity cooperation has born early fruit which has laid a sound foundation for the bilateral cooperation under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative.

The highly complementary national development strategies is an internal impetus to push forward the Belt and Road Initiative. We can see from the promises made by President Magufuli during his presidential campaign, Tanzania's "Second Five-Year Development Plan" and the measures taken by the government in the past year, that, President Magufuli is leading Tanzanian people to forge ahead on the road of building a middle-income country by improving infrastructure, expanding economic and trade cooperation with foreign countries, promoting industrialisation, invigorating agricultural industry and other strategic measures.

The above-mentioned development strategies well-matched the concept and content of the Belt and Road Initiative. Furthermore, to better grow its economy, Tanzania must firstly well address three weaknesses, namely lack of technology, capital and skilled personnel. China has comparative advantage in these three areas and is willing to help Tanzania without any reservation because we truly wish to see our brothers live a better life. I also need to point out, starting from solving the problem of food and clothing, it took China less than 40 years since adopting reform and opening up policy to become the second largest economy in the world. China's development path, model and experience have a strong reference to Tanzania. In the process of jointly building the Belt and Road, we will share these experiences with the Tanzania to help avoid detours and move toward strength and prosperity.

Because of these special advantages and common interests between China and Tanzania, I firmly believe that the Belt and Road Initiative will further widen and deepen China-Tanzania cooperation and contribute to better economic and social development of Tanzania.

Dr_ Lu Youqing is the Ambassador of the People's Republic of China to Tanzania.
_
http://allafrica.com/stories/201705110195.html

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## Shotgunner51

*CEE pings loudly on China’s economic radar*
By Elliot Wilson 08 May 2017






To ardent followers of China’s brand of economic diplomacy, it all seemed eerily familiar. It was November 2016 and a state-owned financial giant — in this case, *Industrial and Commercial Bank of China* — was trumpeting plans to roll out a vast new investment fund aimed at snapping up foreign assets and ploughing the nation’s cash into ambitious and faraway infrastructure projects.

But the target wasn’t the Middle East or the landlocked but resource-rich wastes of Central Asia. Nor was it sub-Saharan Africa or Latin America, recent recipients of so much of China’s largesse. This time, China’s leaders were going after a new quarry: the disparate assemblage of 16 nation states — some developed, ambitious and moderately wealthy; others mired in poverty or locked into a lower-middle-income holding pattern — that make up Central and Eastern Europe (CEE).

It seemed to catch the entire region on the hop, yet the announcement was all too real. Jiang Jianqing, chairman of ICBC, the world’s largest commercial lender by assets, was on record, pledging to channel up to €10bn ($10.9bn) into leading CEE retailers, food manufacturers and high-end technology firms. Infrastructure would also get a boost, with the new outfit, *Sino-CEEF Holding*, set to invest billions of dollars into new roads, rail lines, airports and power plants. Jiang was quick to emphasise the willingness of the region’s presidents and premiers to contribute generously to the new investment fund.

Nor is Sino-CEEF the only fund pumping mainland cash into regional projects. Back in 2015, a Warsaw-based investor, *CEE Equity Partners*, was handed $1.5bn by *Export-Import Bank of China (Exim)*, one of a trio of China-controlled policy lenders, and told to go forth and invest. So they did. In the past 18 months the fund has bought shares in a raft of regional firms ranging from Slovakian lighting specialist JLR to Hungarian voice and data carrier Invitel Group.

Why?

But why focus on a culturally diverse region stretching from the Baltics in the north to the Balkans in the south and from the elegant spires of Prague to Russian-occupied eastern Ukraine, which boasts few major multinationals, suffers from human and capital flight and lacks much in the way of natural resources. What is China’s motive here? Why Central and Eastern Europe? Why now?

They are good questions. A booming bilateral trade relationship can hardly be the primary reason for China’s belated interest. Mainland exports to the CEE accounted for 2.7% of all Chinese exports in 2015, according to the Observatory of Economic Complexity (OEC), a data tool created by the MIT Media Lab in Massachusetts. Compare that with the US (the destination for 18.4% of all mainland exports in 2015) or the European Union or Japan, which respectively accounted for 16.2% and 6.2% of all Chinese-made goods.

It’s even harder to make a compelling case for ICBC’s investment pledge when you drill down to a sovereign level. Poland, the CEE region’s largest economy, accounts for around 0.6% of Chinese exports, reckons Tatiana Lysenko, chief emerging Europe economist at Standard & Poor’s. For the Czech Republic, the region’s second largest economy, that share falls to 0.2%.

_“Generally,”_ notes William Jackson, an emerging-markets economist at Capital Economics, _“CEE-China ties are a trifling matter. China makes up a small share of CEE exports and the CEE region makes up a small share of Chinese exports.” _​
In truth, China’s interest in a region that has, notes Chris Hartwell, president of the Centre for Social and Economic Research (Care), a Warsaw-based think tank,_ “spent 20 years re-orienting its trade links toward western Europe and away from [its former political masters in] Russia” _is complex and nuanced.​
On a purely commercial level, China’s interest in Europe’s eastern reaches is easy to explain. Mainland exports to CEE countries totalled $63.8bn in 2015, according to the OEC, while the value of goods travelling in the opposite direction was $10.8bn. Thus, China’s export-to-import ratio with the CEE region that year was 593% compared to 355% with the United States, 228% with the UK, 218% with the EU and 211% with Africa.

That data is yet more eye opening when viewed at the sovereign level. The Czech Republic’s trade deficit with China was a whopping 8.9% of GDP in 2015. Other regional states have lower, but far from insignificant, trade deficits with the People’s Republic: Slovakia’s stands at 5.2% of GDP, Estonia’s is 4.5% and Poland’s is 4.1%. Compare those to the trade deficits that major developed nation states run with China, from the US (1.8%), to France and the UK (1.2%), to Germany (0.6%). Little wonder, notes Stefan Kawalec, founder of Warsaw-based financial consultants Capital Strategy and a former chief economic advisor to the Polish government, that* “the CEE is a region worthy of China’s attention”*.

Slowly, then, a picture begins to emerge. At a very basic level, China views the region through the prism of trade. CEE states have little in the way of energy reserves or natural stores of commodities to offer China but it is teeming with ambitious and low-to-middle-income economies that are in the main democratic and open to free trade.

And that makes them _“natural destinations for Chinese capital, goods, investment and labour”_, says Gu Hongfei, an associate at the central and Eastern European Centre for Asian Studies, a Budapest-based think tank that draws together academics from 12 CEE and Asian states. _“For China, the region presents an opportunity to ease excess capacity at home.” _​
Others see a deeper vision at work, one that plays to the comparative advantages of both sides. Eastern Europe offers investors two genuine and compelling benefits: high levels of employee skill and low unit labour costs. China’s own labour costs are rising fast as its economy gets older and richer but thanks to its vast foreign exchange reserves, which stood at just over $3tr at end-March 2017, it boasts vast pools of accessible and fungible state capital.

This, says Care’s Hartwell, will result _“not necessarily in a huge expansion of bilateral trade, but in an acceleration of investment from the Chinese side that will drive trade into the CEE, through it and beyond. China’s new emphasis on high-end technology, innovation and knowledge-based industries could be really beneficial for the CEE region. There is a nice symbiosis there and it could drive innovation for all of Europe.”_​Capital Strategy’s Kawalec believes China is keen to use the region as an industrial base camp, manufacturing consumer goods and specialised high-end products at a lower cost before shipping them to wealthier western European markets.

*Connecting the dots*

Then there’s infrastructure. If there is one thing China does effortlessly well it is this. Mainland construction firms have in recent years built maritime toll bridges in Mumbai and highways in eastern Africa; future plans include new rail lines in Latin America, ring roads encircling Kazakh cities and a giant road and rail system linking western China with the Pakistan port city of Gwadar.

So it makes sense to fund and build infrastructure projects across Central and Eastern Europe, particularly when, as Capital Strategy’s Kawalec notes, they help “facilitate the transport of Chinese-made products to European markets”. Or, to put it another way, to convey goods made by mainland-owned factories located within European Union-area CEE states to the likes of Germany and France.

China’s interest in the region varies from state to state, experts say. Larger regional economies such as Poland and the Czech Republic, boasting developed-world-level infrastructure, have less need of mainland cash to fund roads and tunnels. But Hungary, a country that has benefited in the past from Chinese aid and which is currently struggling to see eye-to-eye with the EU, is more likely to welcome mainland capital with open arms.

*Balkan focus*

Another likely target for China is the Balkans.
_
“China wants Serbia to become a key logistics and transportation hub that can be used to convey Chinese-made goods to Europe and to open markets that might be closed or restricted,”_ says Care’s Hartwell. _“China really has been targeting the underbelly of Europe in the Balkans, and Serbia is probably one of the largest recipients of Chinese tied aid. The Balkans seem to be more of a multiplier for them in terms of infrastructure.”_​
Standard & Poor’s Lysenko believes the need for China-originated infrastructure capital is greatest not in the non-EU western Balkans but in the Black Sea states of Bulgaria and Romania.

Focusing on poorer markets that mainstream capital often bypasses, rather than scattering cash to the wind in the hope that some of it will stick, makes good sense. After all, China is a newcomer to a region long dominated and influenced by Russia and the big economic beasts of western Europe. Infrastructure capital is also flowing into the region from Russia (which is funding two new €12.5bn reactors at a nuclear plant on the Hungarian stretch of the River Danube) and the EU, which is half way through a three-year plan to channel €21bn into Europe-wide (including CEE) infrastructure projects. In the short run at least, China will not have everything its own way.

*OBOR — wrapping soft power around hard assets*

Encircling this entire discussion is an acronym that may come to define the 21st century. China’s vastly ambitious One Belt, One Road plan, or OBOR, is often misunderstood, in large part because few outside China (and possibly very many living within its borders) do not, or cannot, grasp the project’s ultimate intent.

Whether you view it as a genuine game-changer, a paper tiger or just a handy phrase designed to give China’s globalisation plans focus and definition, no one can accuse it of lacking ambition. OBOR spans 65 countries, 60% of humanity, and more than 25% of the world’s GDP. Its overland route, which starts in the Chinese capital, stretches eastward through Central Asia and Russia — whose own trade ties with China have improved markedly in recent years — and Poland, culminating at the great Dutch port of Rotterdam.

Paul Sheard, chief global economist at Standard Poor’s, believes OBOR is all about “wrapping soft power around hard assets”. He says it speaks to China’s desire to achieve multiple goals, from increasing its global reach and influence, to boosting returns on its external financial assets, to winning over foreign markets and making them reliable and stable conduits for its capital and exports.

In this sense, Central and Eastern Europe is very much part of China’s long term plans. A strong CEE region is cricial to the OBOR project and thus crucial to China’s long term interests. Viewed in this light, the decision by major Chinese lenders such as ICBC and Exim to pump capital into a region far from the country and traditionally under the political, financial and cultural aegis of Russia, Germany and the EU makes an awful lot of sense. Chinese cash may never quite come to dominate the CEE region. But it is here to stay.

http://www.globalcapital.com/article/b12x6f3qxkkt4l/cee-pings-loudly-on-chinas-economic-radar

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## Shotgunner51

*Polish PM sets off for China*
11.05.2017 14:52

Poland’s PM has set off for China to invite local investors to co-finance the Polish government’s flagship economic projects such as a central airport and railways. 





Prime Minister Beata Szydło. Photo: KPRM

As *Michał Owczarek *reports, the prime minister will also attend the first Belt and Road Summit held by the Chinese government to promote closer economic cooperation and connectivity between regions.

_“The Chinese seek huge projects, preferably ones that will relieve them of as much cash as possible in one spot; and building a central Polish airport could come in very handy here, especially that it could embrace traffic with China,” _said Tomasz Pisula, the president of the Polish Investment and Trade Agency.​
http://www.thenews.pl/1/6/Artykul/306444,Polish-PM-sets-off-for-China

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## Shotgunner51

*Chilean President on state visit to China from May 12-15*
Posted By: Web Editor on: May 11, 2017

SANTIAGO/BEIJING – The presidents of Argentina, Chile and Uzbekistan will pay state visits to China and attend the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation later this week.






Argentinean President Mauricio Macri will visit China from May 14 to 18; Chilean President Michelle Bachelet will visit from May 12 to 15; Uzbek President Shavkat Mirziyoyev will visit from May 11 to 15.

The three presidents are among the at least 28 heads of state or government who will attend the forum in Beijing, according to state-run Xinhua, the highest-profile international meeting on the Belt and Road since China put forward the initiative in 2013.






Last November, Chinese President Xi Jinping arrived in the Chilean capital of Santiago for a state visit to the Latin American country.

Chile established diplomatic ties with China in 1970, the first country in South America to do so. Meanwhile, Chile was the first Latin American country to sign a free trade agreement (FTA) with China, and the first one in Latin America to acknowledge China’s full market economy status.

Bilateral trade volume has grown fourfold since the FTA went into effect in 2006. China is now Chile’s largest trading partner, its largest export destination and the largest buyer of *copper* products.

Currently, Chile is China’s second largest source of wine imports, with bottled wine exports to China up by 46 percent in 2015. The two countries have signed a number of quarantine agreements on cherries, blueberries and avocados.

China has become an important market for Chilean cherries, blueberries, apples, grapes and a variety of seafood such as salmon. Chinese products with good quality and competitive prices are also popular among Chilean consumers. For example, Chinese-made cars have taken up a considerable share of the Chilean auto market.

China’s first *RMB clearing bank* in Latin America was opened in Chile in June this year, setting up a platform to upgrade financial cooperation between China, Chile and the rest of Latin America.

http://santiagotimes.cl/2017/05/11/chilean-president-bachelet-starts-state-visit-to-china-today/

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## Shotgunner51

*New Uzbek President Goes To China Looking To Expand Bilateral Ties*
May 11, 2017 15:21 GMT Bruce Pannier






Uzbek President Shavkat Mirzyaev will meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping and other top Chinese officials, as well as with representatives of leading Chinese companies.

Shavkat Mirziyaev has arrived in China to pay his first official visit to that country as Uzbekistan's president.

The visit lasts through May 13, after which he will attend his first major international conference as Uzbek head of state when he stays on in China for the May 14-15 One Belt-One Road forum.

Mirziyaev is due to meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping and other top Chinese officials, as well as with representatives of leading Chinese companies.

According to Asad Khojaev, the head of Mirziyaev's press service, Uzbekistan and China will sign around 100 agreements worth an estimated $20 billion in Beijing.

China is already one of Uzbekistan's leading trade partners and a key investor in projects in Uzbekistan.

Chinese companies helped construct the *Pap-Angren railway*, a 123-kilometer-long line from eastern Uzbekistan to an area not far from the capital, Tashkent, a $1.9 billion project financed in part by *China's Export-Import Bank*.

China has also helped fund and construct *three gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to China* that run through Uzbekistan. And Beijing has signed contracts with Tashkent for Uzbekistan to eventually supply up to *10 billion cubic meters of gas annually* through those pipelines.

Mirziyaev signaled early on in his presidency that he would be seeking closer economic cooperation with other countries to help invigorate Uzbekistan's flagging economy.

China has proven to be a prime source of foreign investment and loans, not just for Uzbekistan but for all the Central Asian states. However, Beijing has already helped fund most of the major projects that link Central Asia to China, *including roads, railway lines, and oil and gas pipelines*, and Uzbek businessmen accompanying Mirziyaev might find fewer opportunities for cooperation with China than during the last decade.

Press releases ahead of Mirziyaev's trip made just passing mention of talks on security cooperation, though this is likely to be a key topic in Mirziyaev's conversations with Chinese officials.

Uzbekistan has a short (approximately 160 kilometers long) border with Afghanistan, and Beijing is said to be increasingly concerned about Muslims from China's western Xinjiang Autonomous Uyghur Region appearing in the ranks of Islamic extremist groups in Syria and Iraq.

According to some reports, as these groups are being forced out of these two Middle Eastern countries, many of the Central Asians and Uyghurs in these extremist organizations are making their way to Afghanistan.

China and Uzbekistan are both members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, along with Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan (and soon India and Pakistan). That organization has commitments to cooperation in countering terrorism.

Mirziyaev served as Uzbekistan's prime minister from 2003 to 2016, so he has been to China several times before and is already acquainted with some Chinese officials.

Beyond improving trade ties with China, Mirziyaev might also be seeking to maintain and strengthen the political ties between the two countries. China has become a linchpin in Uzbekistan's foreign policy, helping Tashkent fend off Western criticism of rights abuses in Uzbekistan and serving as an important counterweight to former colonial master Russia.

https://www.rferl.org/a/uzbekistan-president-china-visit/28480763.html

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## samsara

*China aims to triple rail freight with Europe by 2020*

*Link seen as foundation of Belt and Road economic expansion*

By Shunsuke Tabeta, Nikkei staff writer - May 12, 2017 8:00 am JST





China is expanding rail freight to and from Europe to support more than just its IT industry.​
*CHONGQING, China -- China aims to nearly triple rail freight shipments to and from Europe by 2020, an international logistics executive here told The Nikkei, making the transport link a backbone of economic growth in the Belt and Road infrastructure initiative.*

*The National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), which steers economic policy, aims to run 5,000 freight trains between China and Europe in 2020, up from 1,800 in 2016.*




Toward that goal, China must not only export more to Europe, but also work toward economic development with the other countries along the Belt and Road routes, said Zhou Shulin, chairman of the supervisory board at major international shipper Yuxinou (Chongqing) Logistics. Zhou sees railroads as fundamental to that economic development.

Rail freight could bring *building materials to Central Asian countries* along the Belt and Road route where infrastructure construction is growing, such as Kazakhstan, Zhou suggested.

He added that *cross-border e-commerce* probably would drive demand for rail shipping as well, as economic growth in Belt and Road countries would let consumers there buy more goods from Chinese companies such as Alibaba Group Holding, raising exports.

*China also aims to import more from Europe.* There was almost no demand for such imports when the *Chongqing railway opened in 2011*, but recent years have brought more shipments by rail of European high-end cars and auto parts. Yuxinou is considering bringing in lumber from Russia and northern Europe as well, Zhou said.

He added that he would like to partner with Japanese companies for their *cold-storage shipping technology*, which could pave the way for importing salmon and other goods from northern Europe.

*The railway between Chongqing and Duisburg, Germany*, was opened as *a major freight artery linking China and Europe*. It was meant to export computers, printers and other information technology products, Zhou said. *Around a third of the world's computers are made in Chongqing*, and most are shipped to Duisburg by train for export to Europe and elsewhere. The railway came to support the growth of the IT industry in China's economy.

The railway became a broader export means for China, the "world's factory," beginning in 2013, when President Xi Jinping introduced the Belt and Road Initiative. *It began supporting economic development for other inland areas*, such as by shipping coffee beans from Yunnan Province. Shipments of machinery, garments and everyday goods grew, and in 2016, IT products made up only about half of gross shipping volumes.

*Yuxinou Logistics* was formed in Chongqing by a joint investment from rail operators and logistics companies in countries including China, Germany, Russia and Kazakhstan. It has worked to streamline customs procedures, mainly in China and Germany. *It handles distribution by rail freight between Chongqing and Europe*, and apparently accounts for about 80% of rail shipping between China and Europe on a value basis.

(Nikkei Asian Review)

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## samsara

*Indonesia plays it cool in competition for China’s OBOR money*

By Fedina S. Sundaryani - The Jakarta Post

Jakarta | Fri, May 12, 2017 | 08:30 am





Economic talk: Investment Coordinating Board (BKPM) chairman Thomas Trikasih Lembong
discusses Indonesia's investments during a visit at The Jakarta Post on Feb. 20. (JP/Donny Fernando)​
*Indonesia is playing its cards close to its chest in its effort to convince China to sink more money into the archipelago through the ambitious One Belt One Road (OBOR) initiative, by offering limited projects in only two to three regions deemed most suitable for the new Silk Road.*

In the OBOR summit, slated for next Sunday through Monday, China will gather 29 countries to upgrade the legendary Silk Road trade route into an advanced global trade network, by investing heavily in infrastructure connecting Asia, Africa and Europe.

Investment Coordinating Board (BKPM) chairman Thomas Lembong confirmed that Indonesia would only offer infrastructure projects in a limited number of regions as the government had found that a lack of focus could make Chinese investors hesitant.

While declining to mention the exact regions as the matter still needs to be discussed in a meeting at the office of the Coordinating Maritime Affiars Minister on Friday, he noted that Indonesia would focus on maritime projects encompassing transportation, telecommunications, tourism, industrial estates, energy and power.

“_We have a vision that during the summit, we will propose integrated projects worth tens of billions of US dollars. However, the government must first pick out two or three priority regions,_” he said on Wednesday.

*Since its establishment in 2013, the OBOR initiative has seen more than US$50 billion of Chinese investment. It could funnel investments, worth between $313 billion and $502 billion, into 62 Belt-Road countries over the next five years, Hong Kong based analyst at Credit Suisse Group AG Shen Hu wrote.*

*While Indonesia has been a member of the OBOR program since its establishment in 2013, it has so far only reaped $5 billion to $6 billion in infrastructure investment from the initiative. The figure is much smaller compared to its peers; Pakistan has received $62 billion, while Malaysia has received $32 billion, said Thomas.*

*The government hopes to change this with President Joko “Jokowi” Widodo’s attendance next week. He will have to compete with 28 heads of state, including those from six other ASEAN members and 12 European countries.*

Indonesian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (Kadin) deputy chairperson of international relations Shinta Widjaja Kamdani *urged Indonesia to be more proactive* as *$359 billion of investment is needed under the 2015-2019* midterm development plan (RPJMN), with state-owned firms only able to fund 63 percent.

“_We have toll roads, sea ports, airports and power plant projects that are in line with the OBOR program. The government must find a way to offer these projects with enticing investment schemes,_” she told The Jakarta Post.

Economist Ari Kuncoro from the University of Indonesia agreed with the government’s decision to offer only a few regions, but said the country needed to carefully assess the decision. “There should be a clear road map on how we want to join. Indonesia needs to offer a conscientious concession for mutual benefits,” he added.

The OBOR program is suitable for cities that were covered in the old trade route between China and Indonesia, such as *Sabang in Aceh*, *Medan in North Sumatra*, *Batam in Riau islands* and *Pontianak in West Kalimantan*.

However, Ari suggested that they not be specifically offered to OBOR, but also to Japan and the United States, all of which have interest to grow as the world’s leading economic hub.

-----

Stefani Ribka contributed to this story


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## onebyone

rian wang | May 12, 2017 | 







China has lent $100 billion so far for One Belt and One Road projects.

The Hassyan clean coal project in the United Arab Emirates received two loans worth $2.3 billion, a gas transporter based in Azerbaijan secured $600 million and Pakistan won $400 million. Other debtor countries include Oman, Indonesia, Bangladesh, India and Tajikistan.

Thomas Hugger, chief executive officer and founder of Asia Frontier Capital Ltd., expects Pakistan to gain “significantly” from the initiative, thanks to the China–Pakistan Economic Corridor, which has lured $46 billion in investment commitments from China. “Besides Pakistan, the Central Asian economies especially Kazakhstan should benefit. Iran, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Myanmar can also benefit.”







http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/05/chinas-one-belt-one-road-loans-up-to-100-billion-in-total.html

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## beijingwalker

*World's biggest building project aims to make China great again*
The ‘Belt and Road initiative’ could see hundreds of billions spent from Mongolia to Malaysia, Thailand to Turkmenistan and Indonesia to Iran

by Tom Phillips in Tashkurgan
Friday 12 May 2017 01.25 BST

When the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, unveiled what some call the most ambitious development plan in history, Zhou Jun decided almost immediately he should head for the hills.

The 45-year-old entrepreneur packed his bags and set off for one of his country’s most staggeringly beautiful corners: a sleepy, high-altitude border outpost called Tashkurgan that - at almost 5,000km (3,100 miles) from Beijing - is the most westerly settlement in China.

“I saw a great opportunity to turn this little town into a mid-sized city,” Zhou explained during a tour of ‘Europa Manor’, a garish roadside spa he recently opened for Chinese tourists along the Karakoram, the legendary 1,300km highway that snakes through China’s rugged western mountains towards the 4,700m-high Khunjerab Pass.

Zhou said he was part of a wave of entrepreneurs now pouring into this isolated frontier near Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, hoping to cash in on President Xi’s “Belt and Road initiative”, a multi-billion dollar infrastructure campaign that looks set to transform large swaths of Asia and the world beyond.

“This place is going to see big changes,” predicted Zhou, who hails from the central city of Xi’an, as he guided his visitors through an R&R centre filled with plunge pools, wicker chaise lounges and fake plastic trees.






Tajik women who are optimistic about the region’s redevelopment. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

This weekend world leaders including Russian president Vladimir Putin, Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif and Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan will gather in Beijing to celebrate Xi’s plan, which supporters hail as the start of a new era of globalisation but sceptics see as a strategic ploy to cement China’s position as Asia’s top dog.

“The Belt and Road forum will go down as a landmark event in the history of Chinese foreign policy,” boasted a frontpage commentary in the Communist party’s official mouthpiece, the People’s Daily, on the eve of the event, which bears the unfortunate English acronym “Barf”.

As the last stop on the Karakoram before the border with Pakistan, Tashkurgan stands on the front line of one of the most ambitious components of Xi’s project: the $62bn China-Pakistan economic corridor (Cpec).

Officials in Beijing and Islamabad claim the corridor – a vast web of planned infrastructure projects running diagonally from the resource-rich region of Xinjiang in western China to the deep-water port of Gwadar on Pakistan’s Arabian coast – will spark an “economic revolution” in the south Asian country.

*Tashkurgan, an isolated town on China's border with Pakistan, is set to witness major changes as Beijing pushes ahead with a $900bn development plan
*
The jaw-dropping landscape of glaciers and grasslands around Tashkurgan, an ancient Silk Road trading hub that is home to China’s Tajik ethnic minority, has changed little in hundreds, if not thousands, of years. “It is worth a journey from England merely to see this place,” the British adventurer Robert Shaw marvelledafter trekking through the region’s “stupendous peaks” in the late 1860s.





Children in the town of Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

“The next 10 years are going to bring tremendous change,” Zhou boasted. He claimed, with a heavy dose of hyperbole, that the town’s future might resemble that of skyscraper-studded mega-cities such as Shanghai and Guangzhou.

Muzaffar Shah, a Pakistani salesman who was passing through the Chinese city on his way back from a shopping expedition to the bazaars of Kashgar, said he also sensed change was coming.

Shah remembered his first trip to Tashkurgan, in 1993, when “it was nothing”. “This is growing very fast [now] – very, very fast,” he added over a plate of yak curry by the Karakoram, which Chinese travellers call the China-Pakistan Friendship Highway. “Everything has changed.”

Over the coming years Tashkurgan is unlikely to be the only place to feel the effects of China’s infrastructure crusade, which some compare to America’s post-war Marshall plan to rebuild Europe.

From Mongolia to Malaysia, Thailand to Turkmenistan and Indonesia to Iran, a slew of Chinese projects, including power plants, solar farms, motorways, bridges, ports and high-speed rail links, are set to be built with support from China’s banks and work force.

Advertisement
According to some estimates, China will bankroll some $150bn of infrastructure projects each year in countries that embrace Xi’s signature foreign policy initiative.

Tom Miller, the author of a recent book about Xi’s Asian infrastructure blitz, said the Belt and Road schemes were part of a vast wave of Chinese capital that was now “washing over the world”.

So many economic and geo-political goals lay behind the program that it defied one simple definition but essentially it was Xi’s answer to Donald Trump’s #MAGA: “Let’s Make China Great Again”.

“It is part of a push to cement China’s position as the undisputed power of Asia,” he said.

“China’s greatest strengths are financial – it has enormous economic muscle – and building infrastructure. So it is putting those things together and using its economic diplomacy to build roads, railways, ports, powerlines [that will help] integrate Asia [and] puts China at the centre of Asia.”

“It is very significant because China is the only country that has the capacity to build infrastructure like this and the only country that is willing to do it,” Miller added.

“You can be very sceptical about what the Belt and Road itself means … but nobody doubts that China is lending a lot of money and building a lot of stuff.”

The winds of change have already been blowing in Tashkurgan and affecting its 40,000-strong population. 

Physically and culturally, the town, which is the main home of the Sarikoli-speaking Tajik minority, is about as far from Beijing as you can get, without crossing China’s 22,000km border.

An exhibit at the local government museum, the Tajik Folk Culture Exhibition Hall, describes its natives as having “typical features of Caucasian race, with light skin coloration, golden yellow or dark brown hair, dark blue or gray brown eyes, thin lip, high nose, not high cheekbone, developed body hair and beard.”

Slowly, however, the make-up of the population is changing. Locals say the last decade has seen a major influx of Mandarin-speaking immigrants from China’s ethnic Han majority after the government began trying to boost the local economy by turning the picturesque border town into a tourist destination.

Those efforts intensified following an outbreak of deadly ethnic rioting in Xinjiang’s capital, Urumqi, in 2009 as authorities began pushing for a burst of “leapfrog” economic development that might calm the province’s violence-hit south.

Miller said one of the Belt and Road initiative’s key aims was to bring development and stability to China’s deprived periphery by linking such regions with overseas markets.

“Particularly in Xinjiang, China believes that economic development can help solve some of the security questions with its own militant Muslim minority and Islamist problems over the borders. They think that if you give people jobs and economic hope then perhaps they will be less inclined to foment insurgencies and other things,” he said.

“I think they are mistaken there … but that is how they think,” Miller added.

The ever-present security forces on Tashkurgan’s otherwise tranquil streets give it the feel of an Alpine resort crossed with the West Bank and public expressions of dissent are rare.

Asked how they felt about the town’s future, locals firmly stuck to the party line and said they were hopeful Xi’s project would inject new life into the area.

“We fully support the Belt and Road initiative,” beamed Narzi Baygim, a 23-year-old Tajik tour guide who said she hoped it would bring more tourists to the region. “I think it will help connect China to other countries and to promote friendship.”

Rebiya, a 22-year-old interpreter, said she was glad to have been born and raised in such a scenic and pristine corner of China. “Living here is like living in heaven,” she said.

But development was welcome, she said, shrugging off the suggestion that Tajik traditions might be diluted by the influx of outsiders.

“[Our culture] has been passed down over the past 2,000 years and has become part of our DNA,” she said. “I don’t think it will vanish just because of economic development.”

While business people are banking on the transformation of the region around Tashkurgan, not everyone is convinced the reality will live up to Xi’s grand vision. Some point out that since the Belt and Road initiative began in 2013 trade between Xinjiang and foreign countries has actually fallen. 

Rahber Khan, the owner of a Pakistani restaurant near the town’s main square, said he feared most Chinese investment was destined for the strategic port of Gwadar, not the impoverished region where his family lived.

“Maybe in the future we are growing but right now we don’t see anything good in front of us,” said Khan, 39, who is originally from Ghulkin, a village just over the border.

“I’m not sure if it’s coming or not,” he said of plans to connect Pakistan and China with the Khunjerab railway, adding: “It’s just talking.”

Before this weekend’s summit in Beijing, China has trumpeted its commitment to the “game-changing” initiative in a barrage of state-sponsored propaganda.

“At a time when certain western powers are retreating into protectionism and isolation, China has been promoting the globalisation of the economy in a spirit of openness and inclusiveness,” the official news agency Xinhua declared.

The English-language China Daily newspaper described the drive as “one of the most important public goods China offers the world”. 

Outside Khan’s restaurant, the Communist party has also set out its stall, stamping its message onto a giant red billboard that towers over Tashkurgan’s main square.

“Build a beautiful Xinjiang!” the sign reads. “Make a Chinese dream come true!”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/12/chinese-president-belt-and-road-initiative

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## samsara

*US to send top adviser to China’s Belt and Road summit as part of Sino-US trade deal*

PUBLISHED : Friday, 12 May, 2017, 2:16pm
UPDATED : Friday, 12 May, 2017, 2:24pm

By Wendy Wu, Zhuang Pinghui, Stuart Lau - SCMP

The United States will send a delegation led by a top White House adviser to the ‘Belt and Road’ summit in Beijing this weekend as part of a trade deal between China and Washington.

The US’ attendance at the upcoming two-day forum that starts on Sunday was listed among the 10-point initial results of the 100-Day action Plan of the US-China Comprehensive Economic Dialogue, released by China on Friday.

China reaches out to South Korea with late invite to global trade meeting

The forum will see state leaders and delegations discuss President Xi Jinping’s trade and infrastructure development initiative.

*Matt Pottinger, Special Assistant to the President and senior director for East Asia of National Security Council of the White House, will lead the US delegation, the US embassy said on Friday.*

*“The United States recognises the importance of China’s One Belt and One Road initiative and is to send delegates to attend the Belt and Road Forum May 14-15 in Beijing,” according to the joint release by China’s finance and commerce ministries on Friday.*

Washington’s attendance at the summit was a concrete result of Xi’s trade plan, finance vice-minister Zhu Guangyao told a press conference on Friday morning.

North Korea’s invitation to China’s Belt and Road summit ‘may cast shadow over UN sanctions’

“_China and US should cooperate in bilateral economic areas, but also step up policy coordination in economy in a wider range in the world. I have participated in the negotiation of the initial results, and the 10th point [US attendance] was raised by US and China welcomes that,_” Zhu said.

*China welcomed all countries’ participation in the initiative, he added.*

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## Hareeb

Good for China and the region at large.




beijingwalker said:


> China believes that economic development can help solve some of the security questions with its own militant Muslim minority and Islamist problems over the borders. They think that if you give people jobs and economic hope then perhaps they will be less inclined to foment insurgencies and other things,


Agreed with this strategy. Keep people busy so they dont enough time to think otherwise.

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## cirr

*World's biggest building project aims to make China great again*

The ‘Belt and Road initiative’ could see hundreds of billions spent from Mongolia to Malaysia, Thailand to Turkmenistan and Indonesia to Iran

by Tom Phillips in Tashkurgan

Friday 12 May 2017 01.25 BST

When the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, unveiled what some call the most ambitious development plan in history, Zhou Jun decided almost immediately he should head for the hills.

The 45-year-old entrepreneur packed his bags and set off for one of his country’s most staggeringly beautiful corners: a sleepy, high-altitude border outpost called Tashkurgan that - at almost 5,000km (3,100 miles) from Beijing - is the most westerly settlement in China.

“I saw a great opportunity to turn this little town into a mid-sized city,” Zhou explained during a tour of ‘Europa Manor’, a garish roadside spa he recently opened for Chinese tourists along the Karakoram, the legendary 1,300km highway that snakes through China’s rugged western mountains towards the 4,700m-high Khunjerab Pass.

Zhou said he was part of a wave of entrepreneurs now pouring into this isolated frontier near Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, hoping to cash in on President Xi’s “Belt and Road initiative”, a multi-billion dollar infrastructure campaign that looks set to transform large swaths of Asia and the world beyond.

“This place is going to see big changes,” predicted Zhou, who hails from the central city of Xi’an, as he guided his visitors through an R&R centre filled with plunge pools, wicker chaise lounges and fake plastic trees.





Tajik women who are optimistic about the region’s redevelopment. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

This weekend world leaders including Russian president Vladimir Putin, Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif and Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan will gather in Beijing to celebrate Xi’s plan, which supporters hail as the start of a new era of globalisation but sceptics see as a strategic ploy to cement China’s position as Asia’s top dog.

“The Belt and Road forum will go down as a landmark event in the history of Chinese foreign policy,” boasted a frontpage commentary in the Communist party’s official mouthpiece, the People’s Daily, on the eve of the event, which bears the unfortunate English acronym “Barf”.

As the last stop on the Karakoram before the border with Pakistan, Tashkurgan stands on the front line of one of the most ambitious components of Xi’s project: the $62bn China-Pakistan economic corridor (Cpec).

Officials in Beijing and Islamabad claim the corridor – a vast web of planned infrastructure projects running diagonally from the resource-rich region of Xinjiang in western China to the deep-water port of Gwadar on Pakistan’s Arabian coast – will spark an “economic revolution” in the south Asian country.


The jaw-dropping landscape of glaciers and grasslands around Tashkurgan, an ancient Silk Road trading hub that is home to China’s Tajik ethnic minority, has changed little in hundreds, if not thousands, of years. “It is worth a journey from England merely to see this place,” the British adventurer Robert Shaw marvelledafter trekking through the region’s “stupendous peaks” in the late 1860s.





Children in the town of Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

But this obscure and secluded town is now bracing for a revolution of its own, as authorities cook up grand plans to transform it and the surrounding region.

In order to ferry people and equipment into this far-flung outpost, which is seven hours’ drive from the nearest major city, one of China’s highest altitude airports is being built just south of town on the Pamir plateau, a sparsely inhabited region previously the preserve of farmers, nomads and yaks.

Construction teams on both sides of the border have been rebuilding some of the most treacherous stretches of the Karakoram, the world’s highest transnational highway and a project that took two decades and more than 1,000 lives to build.

Further ahead, there are spectacular plans to build the so-called Khunjerab railway, a high-altitude line that would run roughly alongside the Karakoram and link north-eastern Pakistan with the Chinese city of Kashgar.

Such proposals are music to the ears of fortune-seekers such as Zhou who have flocked to this landlocked town to open improbably named businesses such as the Sea Front International Hotel.





Passengers sit in an open topped vehicle on the Karakoram Highway, Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

“The next 10 years are going to bring tremendous change,” Zhou boasted. He claimed, with a heavy dose of hyperbole, that the town’s future might resemble that of skyscraper-studded mega-cities such as Shanghai and Guangzhou.

Muzaffar Shah, a Pakistani salesman who was passing through the Chinese city on his way back from a shopping expedition to the bazaars of Kashgar, said he also sensed change was coming.

Shah remembered his first trip to Tashkurgan, in 1993, when “it was nothing”. “This is growing very fast [now] – very, very fast,” he added over a plate of yak curry by the Karakoram, which Chinese travellers call the China-Pakistan Friendship Highway. “Everything has changed.”

Over the coming years Tashkurgan is unlikely to be the only place to feel the effects of China’s infrastructure crusade, which some compare to America’s post-war Marshall plan to rebuild Europe.





Nuyuft Arkin, a 45-year- old farmer, outside the new home on the outskirts of Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

From Mongolia to Malaysia, Thailand to Turkmenistan and Indonesia to Iran, a slew of Chinese projects, including power plants, solar farms, motorways, bridges, ports and high-speed rail links, are set to be built with support from China’s banks and work force.

According to some estimates, China will bankroll some $150bn of infrastructure projects each year in countries that embrace Xi’s signature foreign policy initiative.

Tom Miller, the author of a recent book about Xi’s Asian infrastructure blitz, said the Belt and Road schemes were part of a vast wave of Chinese capital that was now “washing over the world”.

So many economic and geo-political goals lay behind the program that it defied one simple definition but essentially it was Xi’s answer to Donald Trump’s #MAGA: “Let’s Make China Great Again”.

“It is part of a push to cement China’s position as the undisputed power of Asia,” he said.

“China’s greatest strengths are financial – it has enormous economic muscle – and building infrastructure. So it is putting those things together and using its economic diplomacy to build roads, railways, ports, powerlines [that will help] integrate Asia [and] puts China at the centre of Asia.”

“It is very significant because China is the only country that has the capacity to build infrastructure like this and the only country that is willing to do it,” Miller added.

“You can be very sceptical about what the Belt and Road itself means … but nobody doubts that China is lending a lot of money and building a lot of stuff.”

The winds of change have already been blowing in Tashkurgan and affecting its 40,000-strong population. 

Physically and culturally, the town, which is the main home of the Sarikoli-speaking Tajik minority, is about as far from Beijing as you can get, without crossing China’s 22,000km border.

An exhibit at the local government museum, the Tajik Folk Culture Exhibition Hall, describes its natives as having “typical features of Caucasian race, with light skin coloration, golden yellow or dark brown hair, dark blue or gray brown eyes, thin lip, high nose, not high cheekbone, developed body hair and beard.”

Slowly, however, the make-up of the population is changing. Locals say the last decade has seen a major influx of Mandarin-speaking immigrants from China’s ethnic Han majority after the government began trying to boost the local economy by turning the picturesque border town into a tourist destination.

Those efforts intensified following an outbreak of deadly ethnic rioting in Xinjiang’s capital, Urumqi, in 2009 as authorities began pushing for a burst of “leapfrog” economic development that might calm the province’s violence-hit south.

Miller said one of the Belt and Road initiative’s key aims was to bring development and stability to China’s deprived periphery by linking such regions with overseas markets.

“Particularly in Xinjiang, China believes that economic development can help solve some of the security questions with its own militant Muslim minority and Islamist problems over the borders. They think that if you give people jobs and economic hope then perhaps they will be less inclined to foment insurgencies and other things,” he said.

“I think they are mistaken there … but that is how they think,” Miller added.





A Chinese flag flies over Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian

The ever-present security forces on Tashkurgan’s otherwise tranquil streets give it the feel of an Alpine resort crossed with the West Bank and public expressions of dissent are rare.

Asked how they felt about the town’s future, locals firmly stuck to the party line and said they were hopeful Xi’s project would inject new life into the area.

“We fully support the Belt and Road initiative,” beamed Narzi Baygim, a 23-year-old Tajik tour guide who said she hoped it would bring more tourists to the region. “I think it will help connect China to other countries and to promote friendship.”

Rebiya, a 22-year-old interpreter, said she was glad to have been born and raised in such a scenic and pristine corner of China. “Living here is like living in heaven,” she said.

But development was welcome, she said, shrugging off the suggestion that Tajik traditions might be diluted by the influx of outsiders.

“[Our culture] has been passed down over the past 2,000 years and has become part of our DNA,” she said. “I don’t think it will vanish just because of economic development.”

While business people are banking on the transformation of the region around Tashkurgan, not everyone is convinced the reality will live up to Xi’s grand vision. Some point out that since the Belt and Road initiative began in 2013 trade between Xinjiang and foreign countries has actually fallen. 

Rahber Khan, the owner of a Pakistani restaurant near the town’s main square, said he feared most Chinese investment was destined for the strategic port of Gwadar, not the impoverished region where his family lived.

“Maybe in the future we are growing but right now we don’t see anything good in front of us,” said Khan, 39, who is originally from Ghulkin, a village just over the border.

“I’m not sure if it’s coming or not,” he said of plans to connect Pakistan and China with the Khunjerab railway, adding: “It’s just talking.”

Before this weekend’s summit in Beijing, China has trumpeted its commitment to the “game-changing” initiative in a barrage of state-sponsored propaganda.

“At a time when certain western powers are retreating into protectionism and isolation, China has been promoting the globalisation of the economy in a spirit of openness and inclusiveness,” the official news agency Xinhua declared.

The English-language China Daily newspaper described the drive as “one of the most important public goods China offers the world”. 

Outside Khan’s restaurant, the Communist party has also set out its stall, stamping its message onto a giant red billboard that towers over Tashkurgan’s main square.

“Build a beautiful Xinjiang!” the sign reads. “Make a Chinese dream come true!”

_Additional reporting by Wang Zhen_

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/12/chinese-president-belt-and-road-initiative

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## samsara

*Indonesia to join China's initiated economic pact*

Antara News - 10th May 2017

*Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Transport Minister Budi Karya Sumadi said Indonesia will join China's initiated economic cooperation pact "One Belt One Road" (OBOR).*

*"To be sure, we will join and take participation in it, as it will be difficult for us to raise fund out side the state budget for investment. Our budget fund would be enough to cover only 30 percent of the total fund requirement for our investment projects," Budi Karya Sumadi said after the opening of the 2nd Ministerial Conference of the Indian Ocean Rim Association (IORA) on Blue Economy here on Wednesday.*

*President Joko Widodo is scheduled to attend the OBOR economic forum in Beijing, on 14 May 2017. The forum is expected to be attended by leaders of 138 countries.*

*Budi said Indonesia joining OBOR is naturally expected as currently China is the world largest investing country, while the countrys state budget could not finance its ambitious infrastructure projects.*

"In my opinion it is something common if we enter an international system we could use for our benefit," he said.

He said a team is preparing a proposal related to *transport infrastructure* to OBOR including *railways, seaport and airports.*

Other ministers may have their own proposals. The cabinet Ministers to accompany President Joko Widodo to attend the Beijing forum include *Coordinating Minister for Maritime Affairs Luhut Pandjaitan, Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi, and Transport Minister Budi Karya Sumadi.*(*)

-----------------

*Antara (news agency)*

*Antara* is an Indonesian news agency organized as a private company under the Ministry of State-owned Enterprises. It is the country's national news agency, supplying news reports to the many domestic media organization. It is the only organization authorized to distribute news material created by foreign news agencies.

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## onebyone

The United States will send a delegation led by a top White House adviser to the ‘Belt and Road’ summit in Beijing this weekend as part of a trade deal between China and Washington.

The US’ attendance at the upcoming two-day forum that starts on Sunday was listed among the 10-point initial results of the 100-Day action Plan of the US-China Comprehensive Economic Dialogue, released by China on Friday.

China reaches out to South Korea with late invite to global trade meeting

The forum will see state leaders and delegations discuss President Xi Jinping’s trade and infrastructure development initiative.

Matt Pottinger, Special Assistant to the President and senior director for East Asia of National Security Council of the White House, will lead the US delegation, the US embassy said on Friday.

“The United States recognises the importance of China’s One Belt and One Road initiative and is to send delegates to attend the Belt and Road Forum May 14-15 in Beijing,” according to the joint release by China’s finance and commerce ministries on Friday.
Washington’s attendance at the summit was a concrete result of Xi’s trade plan, finance vice-minister Zhu Guangyao told a press conference on Friday morning.
North Korea’s invitation to China’s Belt and Road summit ‘may cast shadow over UN sanctions’

“China and US should cooperate in bilateral economic areas, but also step up policy coordination in economy in a wider range in the world. I have participated in the negotiation of the initial results, and the 10th point [US attendance] was raised by US and China welcomes that,” Zhu said.

China welcomed all countries’ participation in the initiative, he added.



http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...-top-adviser-chinas-belt-and-road-summit-part

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## samsara

*THE BELT AND ROAD INITIATIVE*







On May 14-15, 2017 Chinese President Xi Jinping will host the leaders of 29 countries and representatives from at least 54 countries at the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing. Announced in 2013, the Belt and Road Initiative (also known as One Belt, One Road or OBOR) aims to strengthen China’s connectivity with the world. It combines new and old projects, covers an expansive geographic scope, and includes efforts to strengthen hard infrastructure, soft infrastructure, and cultural ties. At present, the plan extends to 65 countries with a combined Gross Domestic Product of $23 trillion and includes some 4.4 billion people.






One Belt One Road Forum Attendees 

*Country - Head of State Attendees:*

*Argentina President Mauricio Macri *
*Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko *
*Cambodia Prime Minister Hun Sen *
*Chile President Michelle Bachelet *
*Czech Republic President Milos Zeman *
*Ethiopia Prime Minister Hailemariam Desalegn *
*Fiji Prime Minister Josaia Voreqe Bainimarama *
*Greece Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras *
*Hungary Prime Minister Viktor Orban *
*Indonesia President Joko Widodo *
*Italy Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni *
*Kazakhstan President Nursultan Nazarbayev *
*Kenya President Uhuru Kenyatta *
*Laos President Bounnhang Vorachith *
*Malaysia Prime Minister Najib Razak *
*Mongolia Prime Minister Jargaltulga Erdenebat *
*Myanmar State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi *
*Pakistan Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif *
*Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte *
*Poland Prime Minister Beata Szydlo *
*Russia President Vladimir Putin *
*Serbia Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic *
*Saint Martin Prime Minister William Marlin *
*Spain Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy *
*Sri Lanka Prime Minister Ranil Wickremesinghe *
*Switzerland President Doris Leuthard *
*Turkey President Recep Tayyip Erdogan *
*Uzbekistan President Shavkat Mirziyoyev *
*Vietnam President Tran Dai Quang*

PLUS those delegations from following nations:

*Afghanistan *
*Albania *
*Armenia *
*Australia *
*Azerbaijan *
*Bahrain *
*Bangladesh *
*Bhutan *
*Bosnia and Herzegovina *
*Brunei *
*Bulgaria *
*Croatia *
*Egypt *
*Estonia *
*Ethiopia *
*France *
*Georgia *
*Germany *
*Iran *
*Iraq*
*Israel*
*Japan*
*Jordan*
*Kuwait*
*Kyrgyzstan*
*Latvia*
*Lebanon*
*Lithuania*
*Macedonia*
*Maldives*
*Moldova*
*Montenegro*
*Nepal *
*NewZealand*
*North Korea*
*Oman*
*Palestine*
*Qatar*
*Romania*
*Saudi Arabia*
*Singapore*
*Slovakia*
*Slovenia*
*South Africa*
*South Korea*
*Syria *
*Tajikistan*
*Thailand*
*Timor Leste*
*Turkmenistan*
*Ukraine*
*United Arab Emirates*
*United Kingdom*
*Yemen*






And several international organizations will be well-represented too, with UN Secretary General António Guterres, President of the World Bank Jim Yong Kim, and Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund Christine Lagarde all set to attend.

SEE: The Belt and Road Initiative: The Defining Project of our Century | LaRouche PAC

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## samsara

*China pushes back on West’s One Belt, One Road narrative*

_Is OBOR "colonization" or “the China solution for global economic revival”?_

By Asia Unhedged - Asia Times - May 12, 2017 2:00 AM (UTC+8)





The title "New Silk Road, New Dream" is emblazoned accross Xinhua News Agency's One Belt, One Road page. Source: Xinhua​
With the One Belt, One Road forum hosting leaders from around the world this weekend in Beijing, the battle to define the massive global initiative is heating up.

Leading English language papers have _pumped out skeptical headlines_ in recent weeks, such as “The Folly of Investing in China’s ‘One Belt, One Road’” from the *Wall Street Journal*, and the *New York Times*’ “Is China the World’s New Colonial Power?”. The *Financial Times* proclaimed this week that “China’s ‘Belt and Road’ vision struggles to leave port”.

Is this _skeptical portrayal_ of what might be the biggest overseas investment push in history fair?

Certainly the Chinese press has something to say about that, as the excitement from most corners of the world will be on display at the forum this weekend.

China’s *Xinhua News Agency* has been churning out headlines such as “One Belt, One Road creates a new model for globalization”, and “[OBOR] provides opportunity for Europe’s revival”, while the *People’s Daily* proclaimed “[OBOR] is leading a new wave of globalization”.

English language commentary from Xinhua last week asked the question, “_*Why do Western commentators look at China’s Belt and Road Initiative with Cold War prejudice?*_” The article cites Western critics that have compared OBOR to the US-led Marshall Plan for post-World War II reconstruction and the 19 th century Great Game, during which Britain and Russia competed for control of central Asia.

The Chinese press has emphasized Beijing’s insistence that OBOR investments represent a *win-win opportunity* for China and other countries involved. The enthusiasm shown by the 29 world leaders attending the forum this weekend is proof that many agree, especially at a time when the US appears to be receding from the world stage.

*Many Western media outlets write that they are worried, from an investment point of view, that the initiative will falter. But it seems likely that many in the West are more worried about the initiatives’ success.*

* * * * *

*Belt and Road Initiative*
*http://www.xinhuanet.com/silkroad/english/index.htm*

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## samsara

cirr said:


> *World's biggest building project aims to make China great again*
> 
> The ‘Belt and Road initiative’ could see hundreds of billions spent from Mongolia to Malaysia, Thailand to Turkmenistan and Indonesia to Iran
> 
> by Tom Phillips in Tashkurgan
> 
> Friday 12 May 2017 01.25 BST
> 
> When the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, unveiled what some call the most ambitious development plan in history, Zhou Jun decided almost immediately he should head for the hills.
> 
> The 45-year-old entrepreneur packed his bags and set off for one of his country’s most staggeringly beautiful corners: a sleepy, high-altitude border outpost called Tashkurgan that - at almost 5,000km (3,100 miles) from Beijing - is the most westerly settlement in China.
> 
> “I saw a great opportunity to turn this little town into a mid-sized city,” Zhou explained during a tour of ‘Europa Manor’, a garish roadside spa he recently opened for Chinese tourists along the Karakoram, the legendary 1,300km highway that snakes through China’s rugged western mountains towards the 4,700m-high Khunjerab Pass.
> 
> Zhou said he was part of a wave of entrepreneurs now pouring into this isolated frontier near Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, hoping to cash in on President Xi’s “Belt and Road initiative”, a multi-billion dollar infrastructure campaign that looks set to transform large swaths of Asia and the world beyond.
> 
> “This place is going to see big changes,” predicted Zhou, who hails from the central city of Xi’an, as he guided his visitors through an R&R centre filled with plunge pools, wicker chaise lounges and fake plastic trees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tajik women who are optimistic about the region’s redevelopment. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian
> 
> This weekend world leaders including Russian president Vladimir Putin, Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif and Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan will gather in Beijing to celebrate Xi’s plan, which supporters hail as the start of a new era of globalisation but sceptics see as a strategic ploy to cement China’s position as Asia’s top dog.
> 
> “The Belt and Road forum will go down as a landmark event in the history of Chinese foreign policy,” boasted a frontpage commentary in the Communist party’s official mouthpiece, the People’s Daily, on the eve of the event, which bears the unfortunate English acronym “Barf”.
> 
> As the last stop on the Karakoram before the border with Pakistan, Tashkurgan stands on the front line of one of the most ambitious components of Xi’s project: the $62bn China-Pakistan economic corridor (Cpec).
> 
> Officials in Beijing and Islamabad claim the corridor – a vast web of planned infrastructure projects running diagonally from the resource-rich region of Xinjiang in western China to the deep-water port of Gwadar on Pakistan’s Arabian coast – will spark an “economic revolution” in the south Asian country.
> 
> 
> The jaw-dropping landscape of glaciers and grasslands around Tashkurgan, an ancient Silk Road trading hub that is home to China’s Tajik ethnic minority, has changed little in hundreds, if not thousands, of years. “It is worth a journey from England merely to see this place,” the British adventurer Robert Shaw marvelledafter trekking through the region’s “stupendous peaks” in the late 1860s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Children in the town of Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian
> 
> But this obscure and secluded town is now bracing for a revolution of its own, as authorities cook up grand plans to transform it and the surrounding region.
> 
> In order to ferry people and equipment into this far-flung outpost, which is seven hours’ drive from the nearest major city, one of China’s highest altitude airports is being built just south of town on the Pamir plateau, a sparsely inhabited region previously the preserve of farmers, nomads and yaks.
> 
> Construction teams on both sides of the border have been rebuilding some of the most treacherous stretches of the Karakoram, the world’s highest transnational highway and a project that took two decades and more than 1,000 lives to build.
> 
> Further ahead, there are spectacular plans to build the so-called Khunjerab railway, a high-altitude line that would run roughly alongside the Karakoram and link north-eastern Pakistan with the Chinese city of Kashgar.
> 
> Such proposals are music to the ears of fortune-seekers such as Zhou who have flocked to this landlocked town to open improbably named businesses such as the Sea Front International Hotel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers sit in an open topped vehicle on the Karakoram Highway, Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian
> 
> “The next 10 years are going to bring tremendous change,” Zhou boasted. He claimed, with a heavy dose of hyperbole, that the town’s future might resemble that of skyscraper-studded mega-cities such as Shanghai and Guangzhou.
> 
> Muzaffar Shah, a Pakistani salesman who was passing through the Chinese city on his way back from a shopping expedition to the bazaars of Kashgar, said he also sensed change was coming.
> 
> Shah remembered his first trip to Tashkurgan, in 1993, when “it was nothing”. “This is growing very fast [now] – very, very fast,” he added over a plate of yak curry by the Karakoram, which Chinese travellers call the China-Pakistan Friendship Highway. “Everything has changed.”
> 
> Over the coming years Tashkurgan is unlikely to be the only place to feel the effects of China’s infrastructure crusade, which some compare to America’s post-war Marshall plan to rebuild Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nuyuft Arkin, a 45-year- old farmer, outside the new home on the outskirts of Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian
> 
> From Mongolia to Malaysia, Thailand to Turkmenistan and Indonesia to Iran, a slew of Chinese projects, including power plants, solar farms, motorways, bridges, ports and high-speed rail links, are set to be built with support from China’s banks and work force.
> 
> According to some estimates, China will bankroll some $150bn of infrastructure projects each year in countries that embrace Xi’s signature foreign policy initiative.
> 
> Tom Miller, the author of a recent book about Xi’s Asian infrastructure blitz, said the Belt and Road schemes were part of a vast wave of Chinese capital that was now “washing over the world”.
> 
> So many economic and geo-political goals lay behind the program that it defied one simple definition but essentially it was Xi’s answer to Donald Trump’s #MAGA: “Let’s Make China Great Again”.
> 
> “It is part of a push to cement China’s position as the undisputed power of Asia,” he said.
> 
> “China’s greatest strengths are financial – it has enormous economic muscle – and building infrastructure. So it is putting those things together and using its economic diplomacy to build roads, railways, ports, powerlines [that will help] integrate Asia [and] puts China at the centre of Asia.”
> 
> “It is very significant because China is the only country that has the capacity to build infrastructure like this and the only country that is willing to do it,” Miller added.
> 
> “You can be very sceptical about what the Belt and Road itself means … but nobody doubts that China is lending a lot of money and building a lot of stuff.”
> 
> The winds of change have already been blowing in Tashkurgan and affecting its 40,000-strong population.
> 
> Physically and culturally, the town, which is the main home of the Sarikoli-speaking Tajik minority, is about as far from Beijing as you can get, without crossing China’s 22,000km border.
> 
> An exhibit at the local government museum, the Tajik Folk Culture Exhibition Hall, describes its natives as having “typical features of Caucasian race, with light skin coloration, golden yellow or dark brown hair, dark blue or gray brown eyes, thin lip, high nose, not high cheekbone, developed body hair and beard.”
> 
> Slowly, however, the make-up of the population is changing. Locals say the last decade has seen a major influx of Mandarin-speaking immigrants from China’s ethnic Han majority after the government began trying to boost the local economy by turning the picturesque border town into a tourist destination.
> 
> Those efforts intensified following an outbreak of deadly ethnic rioting in Xinjiang’s capital, Urumqi, in 2009 as authorities began pushing for a burst of “leapfrog” economic development that might calm the province’s violence-hit south.
> 
> Miller said one of the Belt and Road initiative’s key aims was to bring development and stability to China’s deprived periphery by linking such regions with overseas markets.
> 
> “Particularly in Xinjiang, China believes that economic development can help solve some of the security questions with its own militant Muslim minority and Islamist problems over the borders. They think that if you give people jobs and economic hope then perhaps they will be less inclined to foment insurgencies and other things,” he said.
> 
> “I think they are mistaken there … but that is how they think,” Miller added.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Chinese flag flies over Tashkurgan. Photograph: Tom Phillips for the Guardian
> 
> The ever-present security forces on Tashkurgan’s otherwise tranquil streets give it the feel of an Alpine resort crossed with the West Bank and public expressions of dissent are rare.
> 
> Asked how they felt about the town’s future, locals firmly stuck to the party line and said they were hopeful Xi’s project would inject new life into the area.
> 
> “We fully support the Belt and Road initiative,” beamed Narzi Baygim, a 23-year-old Tajik tour guide who said she hoped it would bring more tourists to the region. “I think it will help connect China to other countries and to promote friendship.”
> 
> Rebiya, a 22-year-old interpreter, said she was glad to have been born and raised in such a scenic and pristine corner of China. “Living here is like living in heaven,” she said.
> 
> But development was welcome, she said, shrugging off the suggestion that Tajik traditions might be diluted by the influx of outsiders.
> 
> “[Our culture] has been passed down over the past 2,000 years and has become part of our DNA,” she said. “I don’t think it will vanish just because of economic development.”
> 
> While business people are banking on the transformation of the region around Tashkurgan, not everyone is convinced the reality will live up to Xi’s grand vision. Some point out that since the Belt and Road initiative began in 2013 trade between Xinjiang and foreign countries has actually fallen.
> 
> Rahber Khan, the owner of a Pakistani restaurant near the town’s main square, said he feared most Chinese investment was destined for the strategic port of Gwadar, not the impoverished region where his family lived.
> 
> “Maybe in the future we are growing but right now we don’t see anything good in front of us,” said Khan, 39, who is originally from Ghulkin, a village just over the border.
> 
> “I’m not sure if it’s coming or not,” he said of plans to connect Pakistan and China with the Khunjerab railway, adding: “It’s just talking.”
> 
> Before this weekend’s summit in Beijing, China has trumpeted its commitment to the “game-changing” initiative in a barrage of state-sponsored propaganda.
> 
> “At a time when certain western powers are retreating into protectionism and isolation, China has been promoting the globalisation of the economy in a spirit of openness and inclusiveness,” the official news agency Xinhua declared.
> 
> The English-language China Daily newspaper described the drive as “one of the most important public goods China offers the world”.
> 
> Outside Khan’s restaurant, the Communist party has also set out its stall, stamping its message onto a giant red billboard that towers over Tashkurgan’s main square.
> 
> “Build a beautiful Xinjiang!” the sign reads. “Make a Chinese dream come true!”
> 
> _Additional reporting by Wang Zhen_
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/12/chinese-president-belt-and-road-initiative


This *sour grapes* kind of article by the (in)famous British mainstream, The Guardian, instead generated my curiosity to learn more about the *Tashkurgan (aka. Taxkorgan or Tashkurghan) 塔什库尔干*, the principal town and seat of *Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County*, situated in the southwestern part of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, China. No wonder that its population is mostly of Tajik ethnicity. The small and remote town is located near to the borders of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Tashkurgan is probably the most isolated area in China, there is only one road, that is *The Karakoram Road* or the *National Highway G314* to reach this town.




Tashkurgan means "Stone Fortress" or "Stone Tower" in the local language. Historical Chinese name for the town was a literal translation (Chinese: 石头城). The official spelling is Taxkorgan. Historically, the town was also called Sarikol or Sariqol. This region is commonly known as the main road of the "old Silk Road", the main route leading from China to West Asia. The average elevation is 4,000 meters.




Tashkurgan Town 塔什库尔干镇 is situated in the southwesternmost of Xinjiang Province, China.
The Kalakuli or Karakul Lake is the famous lake in Tashkurgan,
​




Tashkurgan, Xinjiang, China​
Tashkurgan has a long history as a stop on the Silk Road. Major caravan routes converged here leading to Kashgar in the north, Yecheng to the east, Badakhshan and Wakhan to the west, and Chitral and Hunza to the southwest (_modern Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan_).

About 2,000 years ago, during the Han Dynasty, Tashkurgan was the main centre of the Kingdom of Puli (蒲犁), mentioned in the _Book of Han_ and the _Book of the Later Han_. Later it became known as Varshadeh. Mentions in the _Weilüe of the Kingdom of Manli_ (滿犁) probably also refer to Tashkurgan.

Many centuries later Tashkurgan became the capital of the Sarikol kingdom (色勒库尔), a kingdom of the *Pamir Mountains*, and later of Qiepantuo (朅盘陀) under the Persian Empire. At the northeast corner of the town is a huge fortress known as the Princess Castle dating from the Yuan Dynasty (1279–1368 CE) and the subject of many colourful local legends. A ruined fire temple is near the fortress. The Buddhist monk *Xuanzang* passed through Tashkurgan around 649 CE, on his way to Khotan from Badakhshan, as did Song Yun around 500 CE.









Tashkurgan Grassland - During your walk on the grassland, you will encounter local Tajik people, herds of grazing animals, and you may visit their traditional yurt houses. You will have the opportunity to take photos of traditional life on the *Pamir Plateau* and of the beautiful scenery of the surrounding Pamir Mountains. There is also Karakul (Kalakuli) Lake, a nice lake, but has very few yurts or herdsmen during off season.

More info and beautiful pictures here: "*Tashkurgan, Where Heaven Meets Earth*"

Travel Tashkorgan - Beautiful Roof of Xinjiang | Episode 2 (Eng)




(Episode 1 is not available)

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## Dungeness

United States Agrees To Take Part In The BELT & ROAD FORUM!

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## onebyone

Summit beginning in Beijing on Sunday is looking like a proper international forum, with major late additions


PUBLISHED : Friday, 12 May, 2017, 11:56pm
UPDATED : Saturday, 13 May, 2017, 3:08am

The belt and road summit beginning on Sunday in Beijing will now look like a proper international gathering, with Washington, Seoul and Tokyo agreeing to send delegations.

The US delegation will be headed by Matthew Pottinger, special assistant to President Donald Trump and the National Security Council senior director for East Asia.

The presence of the US delegation would mark the end of a boycott by Washington of China’s “Belt and Road Initiative”, and would be “a good start for Beijing and Washington to build bilateral trust”, said Yuan Zheng from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

As for South Korea, Beijing did not initially invite it due to its unhappiness with Seoul’s decision to deploy a US anti-missile system. But Beijing extended an olive branch after President Xi Jinping spoke to new South Korean President Moon Jae-in to congratulate him on his appointment.

China and US to open their markets further, easing fears of trade war

During the discussion, Xi said South Korea and China should respect each other’s concerns and handle disputes appropriately, while Moon said he planned to send a delegation to Beijing to discuss the missile shield, the Terminal High-Altitude Area Defence system, which Beijing sees as a threat to its security.

A delegation led by lawmaker Park Byeong-seug from the South’s ruling Democratic Party would attend the forum tomorrow and on Monday, according to presidential press secretary Yoon Young-chan.

The five main projects of the Belt and Road Initiative

For Japan, Liberal Democratic Party Secretary General Toshihiro Nikai will attend a high-level conference during the forum.

During his visit, Nikai was expected to hand over a personal letter from Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to Xi, according to the Japan News.

On Tuesday, Beijing confirmed that a North Korean delegation would also attend. Beijing did not give details, but Yonhap said it would be led by Kim Yong-jae, the minister of external economic relations.

A South Korean official told Yonhap that the possibility of a dialogue between the two Korean delegations could not be ruled out.

Additional reporting by Kristin Huang

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...an-and-koreas-make-belt-and-road-forum-global

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

As I said in my previous comments on other thread, It's in US interest to join OBOR to expand their business across Eurasia continent since US has a good business and manufacturing plants in China such as Apple and other brand and China is HUB for over 3 billions people throughout the land connectivity , Americans will hold a competitive edge over Japan and other competitors and share a portion of cake. Japan and Korea sure know the important of OBOR China, if China will to share the connectivity and let them to have a portion of cake, they will be gladly to take part of this mega-project as AIIB.

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## Amember

"The belt and road summit beginning on Sunday in Beijing will now look like a proper international gathering, with Washington, Seoul and Tokyo agreeing to send delegations."

Wow as if without us, sk, japan, the BRF is not a proper international gathering? wtf...

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## Srinivas

The project is more like a contractor china connecting, building and developing third world countries. I doubt west will agree on Chinese domination, they have their own plans to constrain china.


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## sinait

Amember said:


> "The belt and road summit beginning on Sunday in Beijing will now look like a proper international gathering, with Washington, Seoul and Tokyo agreeing to send delegations."
> Wow as if without us, sk, japan, the BRF is not a proper international gathering? wtf...


With the participation of US, SK, Japan, with total GDP of US$20+ Trillions, I would not call that insignificant. Just like any gathering without China will not be so internationally "proper". 
The more the merrier and the more isolated India's absence will be.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Srinivas said:


> The project is more like a contractor china connecting, building and developing third world countries. I doubt west will agree on Chinese domination, they have their own plans to constrain china.



OBOR is China idea and for sure China will lead this project because China is willing to put the most money on it compare to other nations, as I said China is willing to share the feast with all, every can bring their contributions and explore the business opportunity over these OBOR trade route, China has no point to hold exclusivity or selectivity of any nations to joins as AIIB. The west can do what they want or have their own version of OBOR but they will never able to constrain China, the best they could do is refuse to take part as India did.

And funny thing is with great surprise to all US, Japan and Korea are taking part of forum only India send a low profile delegation, I dare to say that India don't want to be left behind and committed the same mistake as US and Japan for refusing to join AIIB.

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## Srinivas

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> OBOR is China idea and for sure China will lead this project because China is willing to put the most money on it compare to other nations, as I said China is willing to share the feast will all every can bring their contributions and explore the business opportunity over these OBOR trade route, China has no point to hold exclusivity or selectivity of any nations to joins as AIIB. The west can do what they want or have their own version of OBOR but they will never able to constrain China, the best they could do is refuse to take part as India did.
> 
> And funny thing is with great surprise to all US, Japan and Korea are taking part of forum only India send a low profile delegation, I dare to say that India don't want to be left behind and committed the same mistake as US and Japan for refusing to join AIIB.



Delegations are sent to get economic benefits out of this initiatives with out official recognition. Those countries might have cut some deals to get a share of profits. There is a chance that Japan and USA might invest and share profits in obor in certain areas. But India's case is different we have our own corridors, our own plans of investment. We also have Nepal which is a part of obor like a window for interaction with china.

We consider china as a huge developed export market .


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Srinivas said:


> Delegations are sent to get economic benefits out of this initiatives with out official recognition. Those countries might have cut some deals to get a share of profits. There is a chance that Japan and USA might invest and share profits in obor in certain areas. But India's case is different we have our own corridors, our own plans of investment. We also have Nepal which is a part of obor like a window for interaction with china.
> 
> We consider china as a huge developed export market .



Every nation can build their corridor that benefit them the most, if OBOR don't bring any good for India then why join it right? I think OBOR is significant for US, Japan and Korea because they all have manufacturing plant and business in China so in some extend, they all can take advantage of the OBOR to promote and extend their respective business across Eurasian continent.

Take a rice cooking appliance as example, Japan not only sell this appliance across China but they can use Chinese merchants and traders to extend their sale throughout the rest of the continent.

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## faithfulguy

India would also come if China would allow Indians to work in Chinese factories and send back remittances. That is the only benefit for India.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

faithfulguy said:


> India would also come if China would allow Indians to work in Chinese factories and send back remittances. That is the only benefit for India.



It's up to India to identify their own interest within OBOR and feel free will to join, if China keep insist and convince it to join, they might thought we're begging them, there is so much China and India can cooperate in Business sectors since we both have a huge population and the demand is huge but I'm not expert in international business so I will let other to talk about this issue.

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## beijingwalker

*US, South Korea, Japan to attend Belt and Road Forum in China, India undecided*
*India has still not taken a decision on the invite for China but the US and South Korea announced today that they will be a part of the One Belt, One Road Forum.*
Ananth Krishnan | Posted by Sonalee Borgohain
Beijing, May 12, 2017 | UPDATED 14:46 IST






The United States and South Korea today announced last-minute participation at China's Belt and Road Forum, while India said it had still not decided on attending.

Matt Pottinger, Special Assistant to President Donald Trump and senior director for East Asia of National Security Council of the White House, will head the US delegation. His rank is equivalent to an Additional Secretary in the Indian government.

His announcement came as a surprise as the US had in the past indicated wariness as the One Belt, One Road (OBOR) initiative. The US had also stayed away from the China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), which India joined as second-largest member, and urged its allies to do the same.

South Korea also announced today it would send a delegation, underlining a change in climate of recently strained ties with China following last week's election. This followed a telephone call between Chinese President Xi Jinping and new president Moon Jae-in.

Ties had been tense over the previous government in Seoul agreeing to host the US anti-missile system THAAD (Terminal High Altitude Area Defence) which led to a suspension of diplomatic exchanges and South Korean companies in China being targeted by boycott calls. President Moon, however, announced he will send a delegation led by Park Byeong-seug, a member of parliament and top official of his party.

Japan has also agreed to send a delegation represented by ruling Liberal Democratic Party's secretary general Toshihiro Nikai, thought to be close to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

So far, 28 countries have said they will send heads of state, among whom are Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Ministers of Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

The Germany and United Kingdom are also sending ministers.

As of today morning, India said it was still yet to take a decision on the invite for China. India has voiced its oppositions to part of the China Pakistan Economic Corridor that passes through Pakistan occupied Kashmir, with CPEC being framed as a flagship of the OBOR initiative.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...belt-and-road-forum-china-india/1/952124.html

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## beijingwalker

Why does US come? I think the Silk Road is the one connecting China with the Old World, not Americas.

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## StarCraft_ZT

Intersting...


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## Kaniska

Srinivas said:


> The project is more like a contractor china connecting, building and developing third world countries. I doubt west will agree on Chinese domination, they have their own plans to constrain china.



They do not have much choice than joining foroum...


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## maximuswarrior

LOL at the Indian boycott. Who needs India when you have such trading powerhouses lining up.


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## JOEY TRIBIANI

beijingwalker said:


> Why does US come? I think the Silk Road is the one connecting China with the Old World, not Americas.


Maybe they are there just to pretend as they are still a super power & Multinational projects wont start without their blessing.

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## Chinese-Dragon

beijingwalker said:


> Why does US come? I think the Silk Road is the one connecting China with the Old World, not Americas.



Strange indeed, considering that Chinese initiatives like the Belt and Road, RCEP and the AIIB etc. are effectively direct challenges to the current American-backed system of global governance (IMF etc).

Maybe it's a new direction from Trump due to him being friendly with Xi Jinping.

Trump has had a track record of sabotaging American interests, maybe this is just another one.


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## beijingwalker

Those countries announced to come at the last moment vividly shows the age old wisdom, if you can't beat them, join them.

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## faithfulguy

I wonder how India will spin the news on how it choose not to attend OBOR. Words come into mind would be: India is a supa Powa, India is mighty, India need no OBOR as it has its own initiative... etc

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## Gibbs

*Sri Lanka PM arrives in China for One Belt One Road summit*

Sri Lanka's Prime Minister Ranil Wickremesinghe arrived here today to attend China's high- profile Belt and Road summit beginning tomorrow.

Wickremesinghe left for the Chinese capital immediately after seeing off India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the end of his two-day visit to Sri Lanka last evening.

Wickremesinghe will hold talks with Chinese President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Li Xiang on a host of bilateral issues, his office has said.

*Analysts here say Wickremesinghe's Beijing visit has gained significance as India has chosen to stay away from the summit, citing sovereignty concerns related to the China- Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).
*
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/repor...in-china-for-one-belt-one-road-summit-2437128


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## shahbaz baig

India is likely to keep its participation limited in China’s One Belt One Road summit starting from tomorrow (Sunday), The Indian Express reported.

Signalling displeasure over China-Pakistan Economic Corridor’s route, New Delhi has decided on not sending a high-level representative to attend the two-day summit.

Sources revealed that there was a possibility that India might send a junior diplomat to witness the summit proceedings.


*One Belt, One Road: Shehbaz to represent Punjab at OBOR summit in China*

There was no official announcement by India’s Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) regarding New Delhi’s participation in the summit. Sources said that a decision has not been taken yet.

The May 14-15 summit is set to be attended by 29 heads of state and governments, including one of India’s strategic partners — Russian President Vladimir Putin. Most of India’s neighbours are attending the One Belt One Road (OBOR) summit, which is Chinese President Xi Jinping’s pet project.

source

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## shahbaz baig

NEW DELHI:India is unlikely to send any representative to China's big "One Belt One Road" summit beginning Sunday, in effect to a boycott of Beijing's ambitious initiative for cross border connectivity through ports, railways and roads.

One part of the project called the CPEC (China-Pakistan Economic Corridor) runs through Azad Kashmir. India has strongly objected to this project, maintaining that Azad Kashmir is a part of India, not Pakistan.

The Ministry of External Affairs has not officially commented today on participation in the two-day meeting. Foreign Ministry spokesperson Gopal Baglay earlier this week told reporters that the government hadn't taken a decision yet.


"You know that our position is that since the so-called CPEC forms a part of OBOR, that is where our difficulty is," Mr Baglay had said. "It passes or proposes to pass through what is sovereign Indian territory and we have made our views in this regard very, very clear to the Chinese side."

But Beijing has brushed aside Indian concerns. Last week, the China's ambassador to India, Luo Zhaohui, asked New Delhi to look at the project from the prism of economics, and not sovereignty.


Leaders of 29 countries plus senior delegates from other nations gather in Beijing for a two-day summit for the road project that stretches from China to Europe with infrastructure projects in between. The initiative involving hundreds of billions of dollars over the coming decades is expected to cement China's dominance over Asia, including in India's neighbourhood.

Sri Lanka, Nepal and Pakistan are already attending. The US too has decided to attend, marking a U-turn in its position that is seen as a symbolic boost for the summit.

China's economy is nearly five times the size of India's.

India, which is Asia's third largest economy behind China and Japan, sits near one of the world's busiest shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean. For Delhi not to be part of the continent-wide project presents a headache for both China and India.

Delhi is upset over China's refusal to allow it entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), a global cartel that controls nuclear trade, and over Beijing blocking a request at the UN to sanction Masood Azhar, the Pakistan-based head of terror group Jaish-e-Mohammed, which has attacked military bases in India.

source

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## Jlaw

Interesting. India boycotting obor by sending a delegation?

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## grey boy 2

Jlaw said:


> Interesting. India boycotting obor by sending a delegation?


A "Junior Diplomat" to WITNESS the summit  same old story=Indian style boycott like calling for boycotting Chinese goods last time

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## Zhukov

Good riddance.

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## Logicaldude

Blatant lie. We are sending our guy Nawaz.

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## terranMarine

This news isn't shocking nor unexpected to be honest, i find the delegates from US & Japan joining the summit as an amusing surprise that deserved more highlight than from a nobody supa powa.

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## terranMarine

India should stick to her words, *do not participate*


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## Lucky Breeze

I think Indians are taking it as a matter of their ego.

" _dil py mat ly yaar , dil py mat ly, mar jye ga_"

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## 艹艹艹

poor Indians

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## graphican

If India will be connected with OBOR, that will be to its Eastern Naxal states which are already pro-China and demanding freedom from India. That is one smart move by China, *If India joins OBOR, it loses some, if it doesn't join OBOR, it loses some. *

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## onebyone

Published May 13, 2017 at 4:18 PM
There will be a safe, convenient and efficient system of China-Europe direct cargo trains by 2020, the country’s top economic planning body has said.

It is estimated that there will be around 5,000 cargo trains running between China and Europe annually by 2020, according to a development plan issued by the National Development and Reform Commission.

As a key component of the Belt and Road initiative, direct cargo trains will connect a growing number of cities in China and Europe.

Demand for rail cargo service between China and Europe has exploded in recent years because it offers an alternative to slower and riskier sea freight and much costlier air cargo.

The development plan shows that the cargo train service system will consist of three routes — an east route, a central route and a west route. The routes will not only connect China with Europe, but also with East Asia and Southeast Asia.

Some 43 transport hubs will be created along the three routes and 43 railway lines will be built, according to the plan.

There were 1,881 China-Europe cargo trains in service as of the end of June, which transported imports and exports worth 17 billion U.S. dollars.

The European Union has been China’s largest trading partner for more than a decade, while China is one of the EU’s biggest sources of imports. Bilateral trade amounted to 3.51 trillion U.S. dollars in 2015.

_Story compiled information from Xinhua News Agency.
https://america.cgtn.com/2017/05/13/5000-china-europe-cargo-trains-expected-by-2020
_

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## Water Car Engineer

graphican said:


> If India will be connected with OBOR, that will be to its Eastern Naxal states which are already pro-China and demanding freedom from India. That is one smart move by China, *If India joins OBOR, it loses some, if it doesn't join OBOR, it loses some. *




They're not demand freedom from India, they want a communist India. Let's not even compare their movement to the communist take over of Russia, China, Vietnam, etc.

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## xunzi

Indian needs to stop being childish.

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## Place Of Space

It's more like India boycott itself.

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## cirr

I want to see 10000 cargo trains running annually between the EU and China by 2020.

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## cloud4000

cirr said:


> I want to see 10000 cargo trains running annually between the EU and China by 2020.



Looks like more shipping lines will be going out of business like Hanjin...


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## AndrewJin

This is an important railway port at China-Kazakhstan border.

*Alataw Pass*

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## Vigneshwara

grey boy 2 said:


> A "Junior Diplomat" to WITNESS the summit  same old story=Indian style boycott like calling for boycotting Chinese goods last time



Either you do not understand the word "boycott" or you have not taken your medications.


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## shjliu

Vigneshwara said:


> Either you do not understand the word "boycott" or you have not taken your medications.


please do explain your meaning of "boycott", set your definition here.


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## Vigneshwara

shjliu said:


> please do explain your meaning of "boycott", set your definition here.



BOYCOTT: withdraw from commercial or social relations with (a country, organization, or person) as a punishment or protest. But, India is sending a delegation howcome that is defined as "boycott".


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## ito

There is nothing that India will get from OBOR. India is well connected to the world as it sits in the midst of Indian ocean through which 60% of world trade flows.


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## StraightShooter

Which means either EU needs to mend its relations with Russia & Turkiye or China would have to use the sea route instead.


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## Srinivas

StraightShooter said:


> Which means either EU needs to mend its relations with Russia & Turkiye or China would have to use the sea route instead.


Chinese are loosing manufacturing edge, I doubt the numbers.


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## StraightShooter

Srinivas said:


> Chinese are loosing manufacturing edge, I doubt the numbers.



Its not so much that China is loosing the manufacturing edge but it is the advent of the new manufacturing age with robotics and 3D printing technologies which are making the old way of labor intensive manufacturing obsolete.

West would be in-sourcing those manufacturing plants to their shores but will only bring back fraction of the jobs that were outsourced decades ago due to automation while China would have the manufacturing technology but needs to find new markets in emerging world.


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## Srinivas

StraightShooter said:


> Its not so much that China is loosing the manufacturing edge but it is the advent of the new manufacturing age with robotics and 3D printing technologies which are making the old way of labor intensive manufacturing obsolete.
> 
> West would be in-sourcing those manufacturing plants to their shores but will only bring back fraction of the jobs that were outsourced decades ago due to automation while China would have the manufacturing technology but needs to find new markets in emerging world.


It takes atleast 10 to 15 years for robots to mature, not all goods can be produced by robots.

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## Chhatrapati

There is already a thread running about this. @The Eagle @waz Please merge it with the main thread
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/india-to-skip-obor-forum.495476/


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## shjliu

Vigneshwara said:


> BOYCOTT: withdraw from commercial or social relations with (a country, organization, or person) as a punishment or protest. But, India is sending a delegation howcome that is defined as "boycott".


so India did not Boycott China's OBOR?

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## Riz

What else they can do? Pak and China really hurting them badly, they have very little options left as USA also announced to participate CPEC, we likely to see more chines and world powers investment in Kashmir, one day there will be no option left other than participate in OBOR..

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## Chhatrapati

Vigneshwara said:


> BOYCOTT: withdraw from commercial or social relations with (a country, organization, or person) as a punishment or protest. But, India is sending a delegation howcome that is defined as "boycott".


Can you put a source to your claim? may be I missed that news.


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## Sheikh Rauf

Brave initiative and Excellent for business linkage is very very impt either its air sea road or train if you have all of em evailable then you will boom in case of emergency enemy wont be able to block everything Good move by China. 
countries who trying hard to Block China to show off their Fake shining are gonna cry in every artical you read..

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## GURU DUTT

*India boycotts One Belt One Road Summit in China*
By Ritu Sharma | Express News Service | Published: 13th May 2017 01:44 PM | 

Last Updated: 13th May 2017 11:17 PM | A+A A- | 






An attendee at a conference looks up near a portrait of Chinese President Xi Jinping with the words 'Xi Jinping and One Belt One Road' and 'One Belt One Road strategy,' in Beijing. (Photo|AP)

NEW DELHI: As the leaders of 29 countries of the world are gathering on Sunday to attend the summit in China on One Belt One Road – the modern day version of the ancient Silk Route – India on Saturday decided to boycott the project as a part of it passes through the Azad Kashmir. India categorically stated that connectivity projects must "respect sovereignty and territorial integrity" .

India had got the official invite to attend the six forums during the two day conference that begins on Sunday. All the South Asian countries barring India have already signed up for OBOR. The US, after initial hesitance on the ambitious project that will create a network of road, rail and ports between Asia, Africa and Europe, has come around and will be taking part in the summit. Sitting on the head of one of the busiest shipping lanes, India’s non-participating is going to be hurt both India’s and China’s interests.

The Ministry of External Affairs' (MEA) Spokesperson Gopal Baglay (MEA) said, "Guided by our principled position in the matter, we have been urging China to engage in a meaningful dialogue on its connectivity initiative, ‘One Belt, One Road’ which was later renamed as ‘Belt and Road Initiative’. We are awaiting a positive response from the Chinese side." MEA also enumerated various bilateral initiatives it has undertaken with other countries. 



Related Article
China bombards internet with videos touting Xi Jinping's 'One Belt, One Road' project
Nepal signs up to China's new Silk Road project
India’s primary objection to the OBOR that it sees as a ‘unilateral’ or ‘national’ initiative of China is that one of its subsets – China-Pakistan Economic Corridor traverse through Gilgit-Batlistan that India considers to be its territory.

"Regarding the so-called ‘China-Pakistan Economic Corridor’, which is being projected as the flagship project of the BRI/OBOR, the international community is well aware of India’s position. No country can accept a project that ignores its core concerns on sovereignty and territorial integrity, " Baglay added. 

India also hinted at how OBOR projects have been creating bad debt in countries where the projects have been undertaken. " Connectivity initiatives must follow principles of financial responsibility to avoid projects that would create unsustainable debt burden for communities; balanced ecological and environmental protection and preservation standards; transparent assessment of project costs; and skill and technology transfer to help long term running and maintenance of the assets created by local communities, " Indian position read. 

Former Indian Ambassador to China Ashok K Kantha said that India and China has lot of space for bilateral engagement but that should not be “contingent” on India joining or giving a blanket endorsement for OBOR. “India has some valid reservations, especially when China itself considers sovereignty as one of the core interests. CPEC has geo-strategic implications for India. Also OBOR is a Chinese initiatives so we endorsing it is not a realistic expectation,” Kantha told the Express.

Kantha was Ambassador to China as the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank took shape as multilateral financial institution and he thinks it could pave the way ahead for cooperation on the connectivity front too. “It needs pragmatic approach on China’s part as well. We will be two largest economies of the world by 2030. So joining OBOR, which is going to have strategic agenda for China, as a junior partner is highly unlikely for India. It might work for smaller countries, but for India it is a difficult proposition,” Kantha added.

Speaking at the 2nd Raisina Dialogue earlier this year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi in reference to OBOR (without naming it) had said: “However, equally, connectivity in itself cannot override or undermine the sovereignty of other nations. Only by respecting the sovereignty of countries involved can regional connectivity corridors fulfill their promise and avoid differences and discord.”

http://www.newindianexpress.com/wor...ne-belt-one-road-summit-in-china-1604412.html

i hope this makes it pretty clear we are not coming and boycott means that we are not going to be part of any such move ... how hard is it & @WebMaster why such threads keep propping up and your keeping silent ?


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## AndrewJin

StraightShooter said:


> Its not so much that China is loosing the manufacturing edge but it is the advent of the new manufacturing age with robotics and 3D printing technologies which are making the old way of labor intensive manufacturing obsolete.
> 
> West would be in-sourcing those manufacturing plants to their shores but will only bring back fraction of the jobs that were outsourced decades ago due to automation while China would have the manufacturing technology but needs to find new markets in emerging world.


An argarian country clearly has not clue in this new technological revolution. They still count on the god of rain for their primitive agricultural sector. Their entire economy is smaller than Western China's.

Automated port, Qingdao City







Sheikh Rauf said:


> Brave initiative and Excellent for business linkage is very very impt either its air sea road or train if you have all of em evailable then you will boom in case of emergency enemy wont be able to block everything Good move by China.
> countries who trying hard to Block China to show off their Fake shining are gonna cry in every artical you read..


Their view is irrelevant.
The point is we and all parcipating countries will prosper from this grand geopolitical paradigm shift.



cloud4000 said:


> Looks like more shipping lines will be going out of business like Hanjin...


Different types of products.
Today computers r being transported via this route. Shipping will be equally important, as in the maritime Silk Road.

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## Fledgingwings

cirr said:


> I want to see 10000 cargo trains running annually between the EU and China by 2020.


It wont take long once it gets started.

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## shadows888

ito said:


> There is nothing that India will get from OBOR. India is well connected to the world as it sits in the midst of Indian ocean through which 60% of world trade flows.



... what nonsense, all those trade flows are passing by Indian ocean, not going to port, unless your charging a transit fee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_container_ports

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## AndrewJin

shadows888 said:


> ... what nonsense, all those trade flows are passing by Indian ocean, not going to port, unless your charging a transit fee.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_container_ports


Ports to india are new ideas, do they have any modern big port?

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## grey boy 2

*1000th trip this year for Sino-Europe freight train*
(CNTV) 10:45, May 14, 2017
The 1,000th freight train connecting China and Europe this year departed Yiwu in eastern China’s Zhejiang Province on Saturday, bound for Madrid.

The Yixin’ou line runs freight services twice per week with a lead time of 16 days. This allows goods from China to arrive in Europe in a shorter time than via shipping by sea.








CGTN Photo

The train carries Yiwu’s small commodities such as household items, toys, decors, and garments to Europe. Upon return, European goods such as wine, olive oil and cosmetic products are imported to China. Trains returning from Europe are now scheduled for once a month.

The Yixin’ou line launched its maiden trip in November 2014. This rail link, measuring over 13,000 kilometers, is by far the longest in the world.

Since then, Yiwu has started operation of a direct rail freight service to London. The Yiwu-London line passes through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France.




CGTN Photo

As part of their intercontinental rail freight services, the CR Express has now developed a total of 39 train routes connecting 16 cities in China to Europe. Rail freight provides a cheaper shipment method to air, and a more time-efficient option than sea.

According to logistics expert Wang Jianming from Yiwu, the launch of the Yixin’ou lines not only strengthens trade ties between China and Europe, but also promotes people-to-people and cultural exchanges.

He reveals that the city of Yiwu is also holding discussions with European countries such as Latvia and Poland to establish partnerships and collaborations in trade, education and logistics sectors.

Wang is optimistic that collaborations between China and Europe will flourish as the CR Express runs on a more frequent basis.
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0514/c90000-9215085.html

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## cirr

grey boy 2 said:


> *1000th trip this year for Sino-Europe freight train*
> (CNTV) 10:45, May 14, 2017
> The 1,000th freight train connecting China and Europe this year departed Yiwu in eastern China’s Zhejiang Province on Saturday, bound for Madrid.
> 
> The Yixin’ou line runs freight services twice per week with a lead time of 16 days. This allows goods from China to arrive in Europe in a shorter time than via shipping by sea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CGTN Photo
> 
> The train carries Yiwu’s small commodities such as household items, toys, decors, and garments to Europe. Upon return, European goods such as wine, olive oil and cosmetic products are imported to China. Trains returning from Europe are now scheduled for once a month.
> 
> The Yixin’ou line launched its maiden trip in November 2014. This rail link, measuring over 13,000 kilometers, is by far the longest in the world.
> 
> Since then, Yiwu has started operation of a direct rail freight service to London. The Yiwu-London line passes through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CGTN Photo
> 
> As part of their intercontinental rail freight services, the CR Express has now developed a total of 39 train routes connecting 16 cities in China to Europe. Rail freight provides a cheaper shipment method to air, and a more time-efficient option than sea.
> 
> According to logistics expert Wang Jianming from Yiwu, the launch of the Yixin’ou lines not only strengthens trade ties between China and Europe, but also promotes people-to-people and cultural exchanges.
> 
> He reveals that the city of Yiwu is also holding discussions with European countries such as Latvia and Poland to establish partnerships and collaborations in trade, education and logistics sectors.
> 
> Wang is optimistic that collaborations between China and Europe will flourish as the CR Express runs on a more frequent basis.
> http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0514/c90000-9215085.html



Barely four and a half months into this year there are already 1000 cargo trains between China and Europe? 

Over 2500 for the whole of 2017?

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## cirr

shadows888 said:


> ... what nonsense, all those trade flows are passing by Indian ocean, not going to port, unless your charging a transit fee.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_container_ports



lol...it is extremely hard nigh impossible to drive some sense into the head of our Indian friends.

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## grey boy 2

shjliu said:


> so India did not Boycott China's OBOR?

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## Banglar Bir

*Aung San Suu Kyi to attend Belt and Road forum in Beijing*
SAM Staff, May 13, 2017




Myanmar State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi will attend the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation scheduled for Sunday and Monday in Beijing, the Myanmar Foreign Ministry announced Thursday.

This will be Aung San Suu Kyi’s second trip to China since her National League for Democracy took power in April 2016.

Located on the routes of the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, Myanmar is key partner of China under the Belt and Road Initiative, which envisions trade and infrastructure networks connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along ancient trade routes over land and sea.

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## asgur

So no more nucking each other, i guess?

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Is it a comedy or a farce... very difficult to ascertain its nature.

By 'boycotting' OBOR what has india achieved? In practical, tangible terms... What?

If india wishes to become a great regional power someday in the future..then it needs to change its paradigms.

Very unconstructive behaviour.

Not only 'boycotting' OBOR Summit but also all this silly media hype... what has it achieved on global power balance...

If the idea was to inflict slight, insult on PRC by trying to be a fly-in-the-soup... dear indians... nobody noticed your boycot. Sad truth for you.

The OBOR is the Biggest Contructive Project in History!

So per default, indians have boycotted the Future. Tragic.

IT was just a first summit of the OBOR... many more to come...

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## StraightShooter

AndrewJin said:


> An argarian country clearly has not clue in this new technological revolution. They still count on the god of rain for their primitive agricultural sector. Their entire economy is smaller than Western China's.
> 
> Automated port, Qingdao City




And you think none of the countries from the West has this type of technology and infrastructure?


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## maximuswarrior

Srinivas said:


> Chinese are loosing manufacturing edge, I doubt the numbers.



You are mistaken. You are the only sore loser in this whole episode.

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## AndrewJin

StraightShooter said:


> And you think none of the countries from the West has this type of technology and infrastructure?


Lots of countries have.
This is the new era.
But most countries do not have.
Half of top10 ports are in China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_container_ports

Bridge to the biggest port in the world

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## StraightShooter

AndrewJin said:


> Lots of countries have.
> This is the new era.
> But most countries do not have.
> Half of top10 ports are in China.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_container_ports
> 
> Bridge to the biggest port in the world
> View attachment 396719
> 
> View attachment 396720
> View attachment 396721




Yes, China needs all those ports as currently China is the manufacturing base for all the stuff that is being manufactured and imported into the Western countries.

Once West completes implementing the automation in their respective countries, the demand for Chinese manufactured goods from West would drastically fall which means China needs to find new demand from the emerging markets which do not have automation yet. Which means your OBOR routes to Asia, Africa and Latin America would be of more critical than the OBOR routes to EU or US/Canada.


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## beijingwalker

China's Muslim Uighurs look to cash in on 'New Silk Road'

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## beijingwalker

China: Putin and Xi Jinping join world leaders for Belt and Road Forum family photo


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## lcloo

More than 1,300 people from more than 130 nations, NGO and all major institutions like UN, World Bank, IMF etc joined the opening of OBOR, the biggest gathering outisde United Nations.

Only sour grapes would take this event as insignificant.

The UN Chief gave speech in OBOR.




BEIJING, May 14 (Xinhua) -- The highest-level forum on the Belt and Road opened Sunday in Beijing, an important boost to the grand plan for interconnected development and sustainable growth.

Before heads of state and government from 29 foreign countries and delegates from more than 130 countries, Chinese President Xi Jinping, who proposed the Belt and Road Initiative in 2013, outlined principles and measures for advancing the open and inclusive plan in a keynote speech at the opening of the two-day event.

Special envoys and delegates from many developed countries, such as France, Germany and the United States, attended the meeting. Greater consensus is being built among countries with different political systems and cultures to push the initiative.

Russian *President Vladimir* Putin said the Belt and Road Initiative is "promising" and his country has supported the initiative.

Given the challenges like protectionism and development gaps, it is necessary to find new development engines to promote justice and equality, he said.

The coordination of the Belt and Road Initiative and the Eurasian Economic Union strategy will boost the Eurasian development, said Putin.

*Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan* said the Belt and Road is an important initiative which connects Asia and Europe and other continents.

The mechanism will promote sustainable development and improve the lives of people and bring mutual benefits to all countries, he said, confident of its success at the forum.

"The speech is very very impressive and presents a very clear roadmap for the future," said *Zafaruddin Mahmood, a delegate from *Pakistan*.*

Xi pledged more financial support for the Belt and Road construction, including an additional 100 billion yuan (about 14.5 billion U.S. dollars) to the Silk Road Fund, and assistance worth 60 billion yuan in the coming three years to developing countries and international organizations participating in the initiative.

Hailing the solid progress of the initiative in the past four years, Xi proposed five guiding principles for the pursuit of the Belt and Road initiative: building the Belt and Road into a road of peace, prosperity, opening up, innovation and connecting different civilizations. He outlined priorities such as infrastructure and industrial cooperation.

"Xi's speech is encouraging and points out the priorities of the plan. The forum undoubtedly is a landmark event for economic and trade cooperation," said *Mirzohid Rahimov, a delegate from Uzbekistan*.

In a complicated international political and economic environment, the Belt and Road Initiative has met the need for win-win development and the common interests of most countries, he said.

The five fields of connectivity -- policy, infrastructure, trade, finance and people -- are important for all countries, he added.

China will play a very important role in multilateralism with the Belt and Road Initiative, basically a global development vision, said *UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres*, mentioning the Chinese proverb "If you want to get rich, first build a road."

The initiative reflects a new model of international cooperation and interaction with mutually beneficial cooperation through the connection of policies and development strategies.

"President Xi was talking about the future. He analyzed the challenges, but said more about solutions," *Umberto de Pretto, secretary-general of the International Road Transport Union*.

The Belt and Road Initiative is a vision of the future of the whole planet, not just China or Eurasia, he said.

"Since the launch of this initiative, we have seen increasing support from governments, businesses and other stakeholders within and beyond the Belt and Road region," said *Klaus Schwab, founder and executive chairman of the World Economic Forum.*

He regards the Belt and Road Initiative as a shining model for regional collaboration, development and growth.

This initiative respects the differences between countries and their various paths for development, not imposing a specific plan or ideological framework, but seeking to create common ground for cooperation and mutual benefit, he said.

"Xi's commitment is taken very seriously and it shows that China is engaging the world like never before and I think that is the overarching vision that he gave," said *Robert Lawrence Kuhn, an international corporate strategist*.

"China is not seeking hegemony, China is seeking its rightful role," said Kuhn.

*Li Xiangyang, a researcher with Chinese Academy of Social Sciences*, said the forum will gather consensus and dismiss doubts.

"The Belt and Road is an unprecedented project of vast magnitude. It is important for us to explore ways to solve problems," he said.

"The initiative is far beyond the economic strategy of any single country or region, its mission is to make the world more innovative, dynamic, and equal," *Alibaba founder Jack Ma* said.

"The Belt and Road is a great vision with a bright future," he said.




Another news report:-
Spotlight: *World leaders chant Belt & Road chorus*
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-05-14 21:52:18_|_Editor: Hou Qiang_

BEIJING, May 14 (Xinhua) -- World leaders brainstormed the advancement of the Belt and Road Initiative at a two-day event starting here Sunday, joining China in a chorus of common prosperity.

Characterized by extensive consultation, joint contribution and shared benefits, the Belt and Road links countries and regions that account for about 60 percent of the world's population and 30 percent of global economic output.

Speaking at the opening of the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation, *UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres* said the ambitious intercontinental initiative is "rooted in a shared vision for global development."

*A PROJECT OF THE CENTURY*

Chinese President Xi Jinping, in a keynote speech delivered at the international gathering attended by heads of state and government from 29 countries, among thousands more others, said the initiative is "a project of the century" that will benefit people across the world.

The Belt and Road Initiative proposed by China in 2013 consists of the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road. It aims to build a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along and beyond the ancient Silk Road trade routes.

"Spanning thousands of miles and years, the ancient silk routes embody the spirit of peace and cooperation, openness and inclusiveness, mutual learning and mutual benefit," Xi told an audience of more than 1,500.

Russian *President Vladimir* Putin said the historical experience of cooperation between countries linked by the ancient Silk Road through Asia, Europe and Africa is important in the 21st century when the world is facing "very serious challenges."

Calling the Belt and Road Initiative an example of cooperation in such fields as infrastructure, transport and industry, the Russian president said his country has supported the initiative from the very beginning.

*Chilean President Michelle Bachelet* said the breadth of the initiative, the level of participation and its strategic dimensions, highlight its capacity to become the biggest economic cooperation project in place today.

*Czech President Milos Zeman*, for his part, said he salutes China for this courageous, long-term project.

Over the past years, the Belt and Road Initiative has grown from an embryonic proposal into a network, while a cooperation pattern of shared growth through discussion and collaboration has taken shape.

As of the end of 2016, more than 100 countries and international organizations have expressed their support for the initiative. China has signed 46 cooperation agreements with 39 countries and international organizations, covering a broad range of fields.

The Belt and Road Initiative brings enormous benefits to all involved and serves as a main driver of the global transformation under the UN 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, said *Peter Thomson, President of the UN General Assembly* who is also present at the forum.

*INFRASTRUCTURE AND BEYOND*

The "courageous" vision of the Belt and Road Initiative is becoming a reality and bearing rich fruit in more fields than expected.

Four years after it was proposed, Belt and Road countries have seen increased connectivity in policies, infrastructure, trade and finance, as well as strengthened people-to-people bonds.

According to *World Trade Organization Director General Roberto Azevedo*, infrastructure is essential, a point also highlighted by *special envoy of German Chancellor *Angela Merkel*, Minister of Economic Affairs Brigitte Zypries*.

"A lack of proper transport network was on top of the trade cost list and the One belt, One Road is hugely important in responding to this need," Azevedo told an international audience at the high-level meeting of the Belt and Road forum.

Calling the forum "a new and decisive step in the progress of the initiative," *special envoy of *France*'s just sworn-in President Emmanuel Macron, former French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin* noted the development potential brought by the Belt and Road Initiative in tourism, financing, culture and environment.

"The Belt and Road Initiative is about connecting cultures, communities, economies, and people, and about adding new economic flavors by creating infrastructure projects that are based on 21st-century expertise and governance standards," said *International Monetary Fund Managing Director Christine Lagarde*.

Greece also highly values the initiative, with *Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras* saying it brings important opportunities for people-to-people contact, cultural exchanges and tourism.

*OPEN PLATFORM*

With various advantages and needs, the partners pay close attention to keep the initiative open, inclusive and beneficial to all.

Pakistan's Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif told the forum: "Let me make it very clear, the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, an economic undertaking, is open to all countries in the region."

Sitting at the crossroad of Asia and Europe, Turkey wishes to bring its unique geographical location into full play, said the country's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

*Special envoy of British Prime Minister Theresa May, Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond*, said his country is "a natural partner" in the grand development initiative.

He expects that with China driving at the east, and Britain at the western end of the Belt and Road, all countries along the routes could work together to bring more jobs, growth and higher living standard for all people.

*Klaus Schwab, founder and executive chairman of the World Economic Forum*, said the Belt and Road Initiative is "a pioneering, international framework based on an open platform concept."

For *World Bank President Jim Yong Kim*, the Belt and Road Initiative can meet the aspiration of those people living in the countries that are still in need of development support.

For ordinary people, the initiative could well represent something simple, "like a fragrant cup of tea," according to Lagarde, which has for centuries "brought cultures, communities and people closer together," and is ready to burst with new economic flavors.

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## Srinivas

maximuswarrior said:


> You are mistaken. You are the only sore loser in this whole episode.


We do not need another nation's money and help for our needs, we can do it much better ourselves.


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## 武成王

StraightShooter said:


> Yes, China needs all those ports as currently China is the manufacturing base for all the stuff that is being manufactured and imported into the Western countries.
> 
> Once West completes implementing the automation in their respective countries, the demand for Chinese manufactured goods from West would drastically fall which means China needs to find new demand from the emerging markets which do not have automation yet. Which means your OBOR routes to Asia, Africa and Latin America would be of more critical than the OBOR routes to EU or US/Canada.



China and India roughly has same export percentage of GDP, between 20% and 25%. China does not depend SO MUCH on export as you think. The most export orientated economy is South Korea and Germany, roughly 40% - 50%.

I refer a paragraph of report from IFR 2016:

"75% of the global robot sales in five countries There are five major markets representing 75% of the total sales volume in 2015: *China, the Republic of Korea, Japan, the United States, and Germany*. Sales volume increased from 70% in 2014. Since 2013 China is the biggest robot market in the world with a continued dynamic growth. With sales of about 68,600 industrial robots in 2015 – an increase of 20% compared to 2014 -* China alone surpassed Europe’s total sales volume (50,100 units)*. Chinese robot suppliers installed about 20,400 units according to the information from the China Robot Industry Alliance (CRIA). Their sales volume was about 29% higher than in 2014. Foreign robot suppliers increased their sales by 17% to 48,100 units (including robots produced by international robot suppliers in China). *The market share of Chinese robot suppliers grew from 25% in 2013 to 29% in 2015.* Between 2010 and 2015, total supply of industrial robots increased by about 36% per year on average. (For more details see chapter 3.3.1.)"

Who is western countries? East Asia is both the largest robotic market and supplier of the world.

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## netasif2004

They will make the same high tech dryport in Havallian Pakistan.

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## 艹艹艹



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## Realtalk108

Srinivas said:


> We do not need another nation's money and help for our needs, we can do it much better ourselves.



Is that why Modi is visiting other countries asking for investment? Talk about being deluded.


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## Srinivas

Realtalk108 said:


> Is that why Modi is visiting other countries asking for investment? Talk about being deluded.


That is promoting , show me where India is selling its assets and asking for aid?



StraightShooter said:


> Yes, China needs all those ports as currently China is the manufacturing base for all the stuff that is being manufactured and imported into the Western countries.
> 
> Once West completes implementing the automation in their respective countries, the demand for Chinese manufactured goods from West would drastically fall which means China needs to find new demand from the emerging markets which do not have automation yet. Which means your OBOR routes to Asia, Africa and Latin America would be of more critical than the OBOR routes to EU or US/Canada.


They want to kill the advantage that other countries have like cheap labour, human resources, potential growth prospects and resources.

Reason why they are venturing into Vietnam, Pakistan , Africa etc...etc.

95 % of margin goes to china on a mobile manufactured with Chinese parts sold in India, imagine what these can do to other countries who are under the grip of obor. Chinese will suck all the resources dry and leave once the potential decreases and the countries no longer has potential growth prospects.

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## Realtalk108

Srinivas said:


> That is promoting , show me where India is selling its assets and asking for aid?



What do you think investment is? _Not _money? 



Srinivas said:


> 95 % of margin goes to china on a mobile manufactured with Chinese parts sold in India



95% of margin goes to USA on goods assembled with USA made parts in China. Welcome to the real world. You start with low cost manufacturing and gradually move up the value chain. But India hasn't even gotten on the first step and you declared we don't need money. Sure.

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## Arsalan 345

China is not only regional power,it is also super power and if they implemented this project successfully, it will bring revenue,sheer amount of money.this country China has invested billions in Pakistan.only a good friend can do it.a friend like china in this generation is a blessing!

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## terranMarine

Arsalan Zaheer said:


> China is not only regional power,it is also super power and if they implemented this project successfully, it will bring revenue,sheer amount of money.this country China has invested billions in Pakistan.only a good friend can do it.a friend like china in this generation is a blessing!



Ah but my iron buddy, Indians don't think China is a super power in making. Many people consider China and Russia are just regional powers because we don't have that kind of military muscle to project power all around the world. Yes both are rational powers who don't venture off to other sides and bomb citizens to oblivion. But geopolitics is so much more than playing war games. It's about behaving responsibly and rationally. OBOR is a masterpiece from Xi trying to help out undeveloped countries. This gigantic project is something we are dedicated to make it work, fully committed to it. That is why so many countries are willing to get involved, participate and believe in our sincere efforts striving for a better world, a better place for humanity. It's so huge we won't be seeing it paying off in 5,10,15,20 years but everybody will see the benefit when they look back 50-100 years from now and they are glad their countries did not miss the boat. Everybody now most likely won't witness what that future will be like but future generations will be thankful their countries boarded the vessel. The Great Zheng He sailed with his armada exploring the world and doing trade, with the revitalized silk road we are recreating the same kind of spirit from the past. It's all about connectivity, co-prosperity, commitment seeing the globe as a collective community receiving fund to develop. Developed countries in Europe and even US can greatly benefit from this massive network of trade. China too is proud having a trustworthy friend as Pakistan. All the best to our Iron buddy

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## tw00tw00

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-silkroad-britain-idUSKBN18A04D

*Britain says it's a natural partner for China's new Silk Road*

British finance minister Philip Hammond said on Sunday Britain is a natural partner for China's new Silk Road program, and as it leaves the European Union (EU) it wants more trade with the world not less.

China is one of the countries Britain hopes to sign a free trade agreement with once it leaves the EU, and London and Beijing have been keen to show that Britain's withdrawal from the bloc will not affect ties.

The two countries have in recent months announced closer cooperation in areas such as financial services as the British government prepares to negotiate its EU divorce.

Hammond offered strong support for what China formally calls the Belt and Road initiative, as he spoke at the opening of a summit on the plan in Beijing.

"It is my belief that Britain, lying at the western end of the Belt and Road, is a natural partner in this endeavor. Britain has for centuries been one of the strongest advocates on an open global trading system," he said.

Britain can be a natural partner in delivering infrastructure in Belt and Road countries by supporting the finance and planning needed, Hammond said.

"As China drives forward the Belt and Road initiative from the east, we in Britain are a natural partner in the west, standing ready to work with all Belt and Road partner countries to make a success of this initiative."

Britain wants to convince its trading partners that its decision to leave the EU does not mean it is against trade.

"As we embark on a new chapter in our history, as we leave the European Union, we want to maintain a close and open trading partnership with our European neighbors, and at the same time pursue our ambition to secure free trade agreements around the world with new partners and old allies alike," Hammond said.

"Our ambition is for more trade, not less trade, and China clearly shares this ambition."

Britain's vote to leave the EU and the election of Donald Trump as U.S. president last year have been two of the most obvious examples of growing unease in Western countries about globalization.

Hammond said there had to be an acknowledgement that rapid change had unsettled many people.

"As leaders, we have to respond to these concerns by continuing to seek new opportunities to expand trade but at the same time by ensuring that all our citizens are reaping the benefits that trade brings."


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## StraightShooter

This is the OBOR to UK


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## Beast

StraightShooter said:


> And you think none of the countries from the West has this type of technology and infrastructure?


Yes, indeed. 

You still think the current world fastest supercomputer is in the west?



Srinivas said:


> We do not need another nation's money and help for our needs, we can do it much better ourselves.


Like your military hardware that still import more than 50percent than you make? Can India shut off import and still survive? No,It will collapse.

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## Dungeness

Srinivas said:


> We do not need another nation's money and help for our needs, *we can do it much better ourselves*.



But it has not happened for the last 70 years. I don't know where you've got your confidence from, but you are certainly a very confident dude.

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## Han Patriot

Srinivas said:


> We do not need another nation's money and help for our needs, we can do it much better ourselves.


I understand your frustration, but once you get out of India and see the world, it will change your mind forever. The truth is Chinese infrastructure is even better than western nations in some sense. How do I know? Because I have travelled the US and Europe. Even seen the shitty Charles De Gaul airport? The shitty subways of NY?

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## AndrewJin

Dungeness said:


> It has not happened in the last 70 years.


Supa Powa is only super in making surgica strika. It has no money, no technology, no talents, no execution.

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## TaiShang

President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Russian President Vladimir Putin before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Christine Lagarde, managing director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and her husband before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome World Bank President Jim Yong-kim before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum (BRF) for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak and his wife before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte and his partner before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Indonesian President Joko Widodo and his wife before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]





President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan welcome Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko and his son before a banquet for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing, May 14, 2017. [Photo/Xinhua]















Night scene of the iconic Bird's Nest National Stadium is seen in Beijing on May 13, 2017. The Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation will be held in the National Convention Center near the stadium from May 14-15. [Photo/Xinhua]





The CCTV Tower, the headquarters of China Central Television, shines for the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation scheduled for May 14-15 in Beijing, on May 13, 2017. [Photo/VCG]

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## powastick



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## MultaniGuy

I am looking forward to OBOR. Hopefully OBOR will be something great.

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## TaiShang

*US in Denial as Beijing Lays Groundwork for New Economic Order*
China's Belt and Road summit has begun—and its outcome will put another nail in the petrodollar's coffin

Paul Goncharoff 



Marcellus’ famous one-liner to Horatio—“Something is rotten in the state of Denmark”—could be updated in 2017 as *“something is rotten in the state of the Union”.*

Does anyone else find it odd that one of *the broadest geo-economic projects in recent history* is only being attended by* unofficial observers *from the United States? It is the potentially game changing “Belt and Road” vision which is steadily, surely and inevitably coming together as evidenced by meetings ongoing in China this weekend. The project has already had some impact on the status and future relevance of the dollar, eurodollar and petrodollar.

*The “Belt and Road” is China’s vision.* It *comfortably meshes with Russia’s Eurasian vision*, coming together to provide a roadmap which includes a broad swathe of countries with contiguous or strategic interests on the continental landmass, from the South China sea to the Baltic. One of the key tenets of these programs is the promotion of free trade, contrasting with politically inspired behaviorism in sanctioning countries and tuning relationships via import restrictions.

China has put its money where its mouth is, with a further 100 billion yuan deposited to the Silk Road Fund to assist infrastructure projects and 60 billion yuan in aid to developing countries. In addition Chinese government-run banks are now establishing lending mechanisms of approximately 380 billion yuan to support the project. Both Russia and China agree that economic development will enhance political stability thoughout the many countries in the region.

*Putin mentioned that trade protectionism creates the environment of have’s vs; have-not’s, resulting in a “breeding ground for international extremism and terrorism.” *He went on to say that “Russia believes the future of the Eurasian partnership is not just about fostering ties between a few select countries and economies. It should change the very political and economic landscape of the continent bringing Eurasia stability, and prosperity.”

Over the past few years, and with increasing amplitude, *China, Russia and other similarly interested economies are taking steps to reduce their dependence on the US dollar. *The fact that the sale of oil denominated in US dollars is essential for the support of the US Dollar’s leading role worldwide. The US dollar's status as the planet’s reserve currency is one of two bulwarks of Washington's hegemony since the end of the Second World War, the other is projecting US military presence.

An International Energy Agency report showed that at the end of 2015 Russia overtook Saudi Arabia as the biggest crude exporter to China. The trade is Ruble/Yuan oriented, not US Dollar. Russian exports to China have more than doubled over the past seven years, rising to over 550,000 bpd and are expected to continue to be strong especially via the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) pipeline.

Whatever alternative reality the US has been focusing on, whether it's arguing over photo sessions in the white house between guests (Trump-Lavrov), projecting military force to enhance stability of overseas interests (safe neighborhoods?), or transgender toilet issues. Not much is happening within the beltway to enhance the qualities of _*Gravitas, Pietas, Dignitas, or Virtus*_ that befit hegemonic empires, or help with our global economic and geopolitical image.

The world monetary order is changing. Slowly but steadily, global trade and currency markets are becoming less dollar-centric. Formerly marginal currencies such as the Chinese yuan, the Indian Rupee and even the Russian Ruble will eventually occupy a place on the world financial stage as serious competitors to U.S. dollar dominance.

One day when the USD is no longer the only go-to reserve currency, perhaps we may wish we had taken a more democratic path as we push ever harder to market our unipolar, beltway sanctioned “proper life for man” brand.

Speaking of brands, one Russian businessman tried to explain to me his view of how America globalizes, he said “It is like having a shoe that fits you well, but there is only one size. Those with bigger feet will suffer as they force their size 45 foot into that size 38 Oxford with all the accompanying pinched pain. Those with small feet will cry crocodile tears as their feet are hammered persistently for a swell-to-fit result… Either way no-one but the original owner is ever going to walk well”.

_*Paul Goncharoff* is Chairman, Disciplinary Committee, National Association of Corporate Directors, Russia_

@BRICSFTW , @samsara , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon , @powastick , @AndrewJin

***

For future potential reference, I save @onebyone 's thread here: 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/5-000-china-europe-cargo-trains-expected-by-2020.495597/

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## Dungeness

AndrewJin said:


> Supa Powa is only super in making surgica strika. It has no money, no technology, no talents, no execution.



But they do have lots of "plans".

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## MultaniGuy

TaiShang said:


> *US in Denial as Beijing Lays Groundwork for New Economic Order*
> China's Belt and Road summit has begun—and its outcome will put another nail in the petrodollar's coffin
> 
> Paul Goncharoff
> 
> 
> 
> Marcellus’ famous one-liner to Horatio—“Something is rotten in the state of Denmark”—could be updated in 2017 as *“something is rotten in the state of the Union”.*
> 
> Does anyone else find it odd that one of *the broadest geo-economic projects in recent history* is only being attended by* unofficial observers *from the United States? It is the potentially game changing “Belt and Road” vision which is steadily, surely and inevitably coming together as evidenced by meetings ongoing in China this weekend. The project has already had some impact on the status and future relevance of the dollar, eurodollar and petrodollar.
> 
> *The “Belt and Road” is China’s vision.* It *comfortably meshes with Russia’s Eurasian vision*, coming together to provide a roadmap which includes a broad swathe of countries with contiguous or strategic interests on the continental landmass, from the South China sea to the Baltic. One of the key tenets of these programs is the promotion of free trade, contrasting with politically inspired behaviorism in sanctioning countries and tuning relationships via import restrictions.
> 
> China has put its money where its mouth is, with a further 100 billion yuan deposited to the Silk Road Fund to assist infrastructure projects and 60 billion yuan in aid to developing countries. In addition Chinese government-run banks are now establishing lending mechanisms of approximately 380 billion yuan to support the project. Both Russia and China agree that economic development will enhance political stability thoughout the many countries in the region.
> 
> *Putin mentioned that trade protectionism creates the environment of have’s vs; have-not’s, resulting in a “breeding ground for international extremism and terrorism.” *He went on to say that “Russia believes the future of the Eurasian partnership is not just about fostering ties between a few select countries and economies. It should change the very political and economic landscape of the continent bringing Eurasia stability, and prosperity.”
> 
> Over the past few years, and with increasing amplitude, *China, Russia and other similarly interested economies are taking steps to reduce their dependence on the US dollar. *The fact that the sale of oil denominated in US dollars is essential for the support of the US Dollar’s leading role worldwide. The US dollar's status as the planet’s reserve currency is one of two bulwarks of Washington's hegemony since the end of the Second World War, the other is projecting US military presence.
> 
> An International Energy Agency report showed that at the end of 2015 Russia overtook Saudi Arabia as the biggest crude exporter to China. The trade is Ruble/Yuan oriented, not US Dollar. Russian exports to China have more than doubled over the past seven years, rising to over 550,000 bpd and are expected to continue to be strong especially via the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) pipeline.
> 
> Whatever alternative reality the US has been focusing on, whether it's arguing over photo sessions in the white house between guests (Trump-Lavrov), projecting military force to enhance stability of overseas interests (safe neighborhoods?), or transgender toilet issues. Not much is happening within the beltway to enhance the qualities of _*Gravitas, Pietas, Dignitas, or Virtus*_ that befit hegemonic empires, or help with our global economic and geopolitical image.
> 
> The world monetary order is changing. Slowly but steadily, global trade and currency markets are becoming less dollar-centric. Formerly marginal currencies such as the Chinese yuan, the Indian Rupee and even the Russian Ruble will eventually occupy a place on the world financial stage as serious competitors to U.S. dollar dominance.
> 
> One day when the USD is no longer the only go-to reserve currency, perhaps we may wish we had taken a more democratic path as we push ever harder to market our unipolar, beltway sanctioned “proper life for man” brand.
> 
> Speaking of brands, one Russian businessman tried to explain to me his view of how America globalizes, he said “It is like having a shoe that fits you well, but there is only one size. Those with bigger feet will suffer as they force their size 45 foot into that size 38 Oxford with all the accompanying pinched pain. Those with small feet will cry crocodile tears as their feet are hammered persistently for a swell-to-fit result… Either way no-one but the original owner is ever going to walk well”.
> 
> _*Paul Goncharoff* is Chairman, Disciplinary Committee, National Association of Corporate Directors, Russia_
> 
> @BRICSFTW , @samsara , @Kiss_of_the_Dragon , @powastick , @AndrewJin


Thankfully the rise of China will change things for the better.

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## AndrewJin

Dungeness said:


> But they do have lots of "plans".


Plan=Achievement in their splendid western democracy....

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## TaiShang

Dungeness said:


> But they do have lots of "plans".



Not just plans. They even have plans about plans; it is like a black hole.

Besides, for some Indians on this thread to understand, I will repeat what @hackerdelight has gently reminded (I will write in large fonts):

*Exports of goods and services (% of GDP) - World Bank:*






India's GDP to export ratio is higher (and declining before even picking up).

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## Dungeness

TaiShang said:


> Not just plans. They even have plans about plans; it is like a black hole.
> 
> Besides, for some Indians on this thread to understand, I will repeat what @hackerdelight has gently reminded (I will write in large fonts):
> 
> *Exports of goods and services (% of GDP) - World Bank:*
> 
> View attachment 396910
> 
> 
> India's GDP to export ratio is higher (and declining before even picking up).



H1B visa holders' salaries are counted as their IT Export, and it is big part of their total export. I don't see too many products here that are made in India, but I do own one, a 10" x 10" steel temper that I bought at Home Depot some time ago. India is making progress in export of manufactured goods.

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## Beast

Dungeness said:


> H1B visa holders' salaries are counted as their IT Export, and it is big part of their total export. I don't see too many products here that are made in India, but I do own one, a 10" x 10" steel temper that I bought at Home Depot some time ago. India is making progress in export of manufactured goods.



It's so hilarious when these joker brag abt their so called export superior to Chinese 

132 Exascale supercomputer in 2017 and supapowa in 2012. Jai Hind!

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## Arthur

So much for "containing" China.

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## 武成王

Srinivas said:


> We do not need another nation's money and help for our needs, we can do it much better ourselves.



Funny. Do you know that India is the second large shareholder of AIIB. What's the motivation of India to join AIIB in your eyes? Lend money to others or want to get more foreign investment into India's infrastructure? BTW, AIIB just approved a $ 160 millions India project which is part of the Indian government's Power for All program, and will strengthen the power transmission and distribution system in the south eastern state of Andhra Pradesh.

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## In4ser

Xi Jinping Speech about OBOR

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## Srinivas

hackerdelight said:


> Funny. Do you know that India is the second large shareholder of AIIB. What's the motivation of India to join AIIB in your eyes? Lend money to others or want to get more foreign investment into India's infrastructure? BTW, AIIB just approved a $ 160 millions India project which is part of the Indian government's Power for All program, and will strengthen the power transmission and distribution system in the south eastern state of Andhra Pradesh.



That is a loan there is a difference between going for aid and taking money on interest.

Even Western nations do that.


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## Aasimkhan

I dont see Pakistan connected to the route on the map ?



hackerdelight said:


> Funny. Do you know that India is the second large shareholder of AIIB. What's the motivation of India to join AIIB in your eyes? Lend money to others or want to get more foreign investment into India's infrastructure? BTW, AIIB just approved a $ 160 millions India project which is part of the Indian government's Power for All program, and will strengthen the power transmission and distribution system in the south eastern state of Andhra Pradesh.


Ha ha liar got caught

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## TaiShang

*3 types of power in President Xi's keynote speech at BRF*
by Fang Zhenghui
China.org.cn, May 14, 2017

President Xi Jinping's keynote speech at the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation on Sunday offers a profound view on the Belt and Road Initiative from the perspectives of *history and reality, vision and action, as well as involving mind and matter.* It is undoubtedly full of inspiration and power.

The speech demonstrates the power of conviction, the kernel of the Silk Road Spirit. *Throughout history, our forefathers kept moving forward regardless of facing billowing waves, rugged mountains and endless deserts.* With the same conviction in which they steadfastly adhered to building a road of peace, prosperity, openness, innovation and civilization, we have taken solid steps to implement the Belt and Road Initiative and achieved significant achievements over the past four years. Both history and reality show that,with common conviction, we can develop a shared vision and forge strong synergy.

The speech emphasizes the power of culture in the pursuit of the Belt and Road Initiative. Culture builds bridges of mutual understanding between the peoples of different countries. No matter how diverse the cultures, they share common features. The Silk Road Spirit encompasses not only cultural integration drawn from our history, but also people's aspiration for cultural exchanges today, spurring us to pursue the Initiative.

*The speech presents China's image as a major responsible country and displays the power of responsibility. China has made great efforts to boost policy communications, infrastructure connectivity, trade link, capital flows and understanding among peoples since the Initiative was proposed. *At the BRF, President Xi introduced new programs to further implement the Initiative. This consolidates China's image as a major responsible country, translating vision into action, and initiatives into commitments; this, in turn, bolsters the confidence of the countries along the route and the international community in general in promoting the Initiative.

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## Kyle Sun

Srinivas said:


> That is a loan there is a difference between going for aid and taking money on interest.
> 
> Even Western nations do that.


You are too sensitive.

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## Srinivas

Kyle Sun said:


> You are too sensitive.



Thanks for the concern 

But I am also tough !


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## cirr

*IT majors praise plan for a digital silk road*

By HE WEI and MA SI | China Daily | Updated: 2017-05-15






Alibaba founder and Chairman Jack Ma (second from left) talks with Ricardo Melendez-Ortiz, chief executive of the International Centre for Trade and Sustainable Development, at the forum on Sunday. WANG ZHUANGFEI / CHINA DAILY


China aims to build a digital silk road as it identifies innovation as the driving force to pursue the Belt and Road Initiative, President Xi Jinping said on Sunday.

The nation will focus on frontier areas such as digital economy, artificial intelligence, nanotechnology and quantum computing, Xi told the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in Beijing.

"Innovation is an important force powering development. The Belt and Road Initiative is new by nature and we need to encourage innovation in pursuing this initiative," he said.

Xi stressed the importance of advancing the development of big data, cloud computing and smart cities.

Alibaba Cloud, China's largest cloud computing provider, announced on Friday it will establish a data center in Malaysia this year, providing local and regional enterprises with scalable and cost-effective cloud capabilities.

Simon Hu, president of Alibaba Cloud, said the planned investment will add to its existing data centers in 14 locations worldwide, and will enhance future deployment in economies related to the Belt and Road Initiative as more Chinese companies conduct business there.

"President Xi's emphasis on digital economy and financial technology suggests huge potential to be unleashed under the Belt and Road Initiative, and is an orchestra baton to fintech firms that want to expand overseas," said ShengJia, chief executive officer of NCF Group, a payment platform for internet finance.

As the Belt and Road Initiative is set to push overseas investments to new heights, China should establish smart platforms using big data technologies to facilitate trade and investment, said Wu Qi, global vice-president of the consultancy Accenture.

Jack Ma, founder and chairman of Alibaba Group Holding Ltd, said at the forum that "the Belt and Road Initiative is what China has for future. The world will admire you not because of the GDP number but what you do to contribute to the growth of other countries".

http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-05/15/content_29351354.htm

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## -blitzkrieg-

Aasimkhan said:


> I dont see Pakistan connected to the route on the map ?
> 
> 
> Ha ha liar got caught



thats because we are ruled by nawaz sharif.
enjoy..
benazir bhutto and musharaf also did nothing for the rail network.


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## cirr

*Freight train begins epic journey from China to Zeebrugge *

*by* Alan Hope,

*SUMMARY*
A trainload of Volvo cars has left north-eastern China and should arrive at the North Sea port on 26 June, destined for dispatch around the world

*World hub*

The first freight train carrying Volvo cars from China to the port of Zeebrugge set off on Saturday. From Zeebrugge, the cars will be dispatched by ship to the rest of the world.





Federal economy minister Kris Peeters (_pictured_) was in Daqing on Saturday to witness the start of the link, which he called “very important symbolically”. The train will travel via Russia, Belarus, Poland and Germany before reaching Zeebrugge.

The first train from the Volvo factory, now owned by the Chinese Geely group, is scheduled to arrive in the port on 26 June. According to port CEO Joachim Coens, *there will be three trains a week, each carrying 123 cars.*

The new cars, the model S90, will then be further transported in containers. The port is looking for ways to fill the train when it returns to China.

*The port expects to receive between 30,000 and 40,000 cars over a year, which suggests a higher frequency than expected – up to 300 trains a year*, according to Peeters.

The train link will still only represent a small fraction of the total automobile traffic through Zeebrugge, which totalled 2.8 million vehicles in 2016. “Zeebrugge is known to be a world hub for new cars,” Coens said.

http://www.flanderstoday.eu/business/freight-train-begins-epic-journey-china-zeebrugge

@AndrewJin @TaiShang

*China to Develop Track Changing Trains To Handle Different OBOR Gauges*

Posted on May 15, 2017 by China Briefing

Liu Hualong, the Chairman of China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation Limited (CRRC), China’s rail car manufacturer, has said the company is researching and developing locomotives that can travel at up to 400 kilometers per hour and also change tracks to better facilitate rail transportation between regions that utilize different track gauges. This is needed as China’s rail gauge differs in width from that used by Mongolia, Kazakhstan, and Russia, whose tracks also differ from gauges used in Europe.

Liu revealed the plans at a press conference on the One Belt, One Road initiative, held by the Information Office of the State Council. The press conference was hosted ahead of the two-day Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation, which has begun in Beijing. He also stated that China was developing trains and carriages, involving new technologies and products to better adapt itself to international transport and interconnection. This also included bespoke engineering, tailoring for specific international markets. Much of CRRC’s engineering work is carried out in Dalian and Shenyang in Northeast China.

Liu stated that CRRC had, for example, received orders totaling RMB 10 billion (US$1.45 billion) from Malaysia in the past three years, with a specific brief to design carriages for female passengers as well as containing prayer rooms. He also said that in terms of international markets, CRRC’s products are sold in 83 percent of all of countries that contain railways across the world.

The gauge changing technologies will be useful and will save time and inconvenience for passengers. At present, it can take up to eight hours to lift trains off bogies and onto new ones, while freight needs to be unloaded then reloaded onto new freight platforms.

Chris Devonshire-Ellis of Dezan Shira & Associates comments: “The rail freight services envisaged by the Chinese will mainly compete with air cargo rather than shipping. Rail is ideal for transporting large, heavy goods, and equipment, and the OBOR infrastructure developments will require exactly that. It may well be that containers of Chinese goods are also transported along with this primary cargo, but the main benefit in having the train network developed is for heavy goods.”

http://www.china-briefing.com/news/...g-trains-to-handle-different-obor-gauges.html

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## Godman

*Belt & Road: China welcomes heads of state, intl bodies at global cooperation forum*
Published time: 14 May, 2017 01:15Edited time: 14 May, 2017 18:29
Get short URL

The opening ceremony of the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing, China, May 14, 2017 © Thomas Peter / Reuters

Beijing is hosting a high-level international cooperation forum, dubbed "One Belt, One Road,” which brings together dozens of heads of state and government, along with financial organizations and hundreds of business representatives and entrepreneurs.
*LIVE UPDATES: China hosts global Silk Road forum*

_"Spanning thousands of miles and years, the ancient silk routes embody the spirit of peace and cooperation, openness and inclusiveness, mutual learning and mutual benefit,"_ Chinese President Xi Jinping said at the opening of the forum. _"The Silk Road spirit has become a great heritage of human civilization."_

Xi also undertook to build a _“road of peace”_ as he emphasized the need to respect the sovereignty and national interests of each and every state. The Chinese president added that he also wants it to be a _“road of prosperity,”_ focusing on cooperation and production that would aim to maintain a dynamic growth.

The initiative, Xi said, is based on transparency and efficient resource allocation, with _“no intention of creating a small group detrimental to stability.”_

Putin: Old economic models based on ‘protectionism and unlawful restrictions’ cannot sustain global growth https://t.co/C5v1ZZgEPLpic.twitter.com/2ojW86gMiu

— RT (@RT_com) May 14, 2017
Speaking after the host of the conference, Russian President Vladimir Putin noted that, unfortunately, _“protectionism and unlawful restrictions”_ have become the new norm in the modern world.

_“We cannot resolve modern challenges by using old approaches. We need new ideas. We need to abandon all stereotypes,”_ Putin urged.

_“We should set a role model for the global community of how we can work together, develop together, based on equality and respect for national sovereignty based on international law and the United Nations principles.”_

Russia is ready to join the development of _“new modern transport corridors,”_ Putin said, as well as to contribute to _“large scale energy infrastructure projects.”_ Putin also called for scientific cooperation and to “_set up international laboratories”_ which can contribute to regional development.

_“Civilization project for the future,”_ as Putin called the New Silk Road, should bring stability and prosperity along its way.

Taking the stage after Putin, Turkey’s President Recep Erdogan emphasized that a project of such scale will encourage greater intergovernmental cooperation and strengthen the _“climate of solidarity”_ among all partners. The establishment of a new, coherent political and economic system will _“pave the way in a new era,”_ said the Turkish leader leader whose country was an important point of convergence during the times of the ancient Silk Road.

Rounding-off the opening ceremony as the final speaker, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Antonio Guterres, said the Silk Road project has _“immense potential… far-reaching in geography and ambition.”_

Putin arrived in Beijing to offer concrete initiatives to implement and strengthen the Beijing-led Silk Road project which top delegates of 29 nations will discuss over two days at the Belt and Road Forum in the Chinese capital.

Hosted by Chinese President Xi, the forum will offer a unique opportunity for the world leaders to engage in a wide range discussions. Putin is one of the keynote speakers.

High-level interactions between Russia and China have intensified over the recent years and Moscow is ready to promote ways to cooperate in trade, cultural and scientific exchange in an effort to boost the reincarnation of the ancient and famed Silk Route.

Read more


Why the New Silk Roads terrify Washington
According to the Russian president’s press service, Putin plans to present Moscow’s vision, outlining the prospects for economic development in Eurasia. He also plans to propose a number of concrete initiatives to build the shortest cost-effective and efficient transport routes through the territory of Russia for the delivery of goods from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Among other plans, Russia wants to strengthen the interconnection of the Asian Pacific countries in the energy sector. As the demand for electricity in the Asia-Pacific region is rapidly growing, Moscow wants to create an energy ring between Russia, Japan, Korea, China and Mongolia which was first discussed at the Eastern Economic Forum in Vladivostok in 2016.

China and Russia share infrastructure development plans in the Far East region. China, for instance, has attached great importance to integrating the Eurasian Economic Union with this Beijing led mechanism.

_“China regards Russia as a key partner when implementing the concept,”_ the Kremlin said in a statement. _“Russia, in turn, is interested in using the opportunities provided by the Chinese initiative for implementing major joint projects – including the economic development of the Russian regions of Siberia and the Far East.”_

Xi and Putin have been discussing potential development regularly throughout the course of the year. Both leaders met at high-level international forums, including the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit in June in Astana, Kazakhstan. They also met at the BRICS summit in Xiamen, China in September and the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum in Vietnam in November.

Read more


China ready to shoulder global leadership burden if others back out – senior Chinese diplomat
The Belt and Road Initiative was first proposed by China in 2013. It envisions two components: the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road that are expected to cover more than 60 percent of the world’s population and more than one-third of the global economic output.

The Chinese proposal envisages the creation of six economic corridors: Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar, China-Mongolia-Russia, China-Central Asia-West Asia, China-Indochina Peninsula, China-Pakistan Economic Corridor and Eurasian Land Bridge.

The list of the 28 confirmed heads of state and government attending the forum also include Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte, Turkish President Recep Erdogan and Italian Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni.

But not all countries are roused by the China-led project. Washington, for instance, is sending a low-level delegation led by White House adviser Matt Pottinger, while France, Germany, and Britain are to be represented by finance officials.

Politicians aside, the forum will hear from over 80 leaders of international organizations, including, the United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, International Monetary Fund Managing Director Christine Lagarde, and World Bank Group President Jim Yong Kim. Some 1,500 business representatives and journalists are expected to attend.

https://www.rt.com/news/388285-china-silk-road-forum/

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## TaiShang



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## JSCh

* Environmental protection projects in border areas *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-05-16 10:20:59_|_Editor: liuxin_





URUMQI/KUNMING, May 16 (Xinhua) -- China and other countries are working on cross-border environmental protection along the Belt and Road region.

In the Gaoligong Mountains on the China-Myanmar border, a variety of rare species thrive. China has built national and provincial nature reserves there, while Myanmar has two of its own.

The area is prone to forest fires, logging and poaching, particularly in the Nujiang, Baoshan and Dehong areas in Yunnan Province. Such incidents pose threats to both countries, making cross-border environmental protection vital.

In 2015, China and Myanmar established a research lab on biodiversity, to conduct a variety of projects such as field surveys and training. Both sides work together against illegal activities in the region.

"We often meet colleagues from Myanmar," said Li Zhengbo, deputy head of the Baoshan management bureau of the Gaoligong Mountains National Nature Reserve. Foresters on both sides have reached agreements on putting out forest fires, investigating criminal cases, and building environmental protection awareness.

From 2010 to 2015, Yunnan apprehended 130,000 suspects in regard to forest and wildlife crime in the region, many with the assistance of Myanmar.

As the Belt and Road increases pace, more joint eco-efforts are underway. Research projects on environmental protection have begun between China and Pakistan on the riverflow, landscape and geological disasters.

"We will try to find mechanisms to decrease risks and improve regional cooperation," said an expert with the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

"The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is an important part of the Belt and Road Initiative, and research on environmental protection will definitely play an important part in the construction of the Silk Road Economic Belt and the corridor," said Lei Jiaqiang, director of the Xinjiang Institute of Ecology and Geography under the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

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## SBUS-CXK

Hussein said:


> lol it's a joke?
> if americans would not buy your products your economy would be a disaster. you are inter dependant. both dependant.


Wrong, Europeans do not buy our products is our disaster.


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## Godman

Cartoon of the Day in DailyMirror a major SL newspaper

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## Shotgunner51

* Leaders take group photo at Belt and Road forum *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-05-15 18:44:55_|_Editor: MJ_










Chinese President Xi Jinping, foreign delegation heads and guests pose for a group photo at the Leaders' Roundtable Summit of the Belt and Road Forum (BRF) for International Cooperation at Yanqi Lake International Convention Center in Beijing, capital of China, May 15, 2017. (Xinhua/Yao Dawei)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-05/15/c_136285795.htm

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## JSCh

*More foreigners seeking medical care in Xinjiang*
By Cui Jia (China Daily) 10:35, May 17, 2017



A nurse from the Hospital of Xinjiang Traditional Uyghur Medicine, attends to a mother from Uzbekistan, along with her daughter, who was born in the facility in Urumqi, capital of the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region.[Photo/Xinhua]

*Region plans to expand services for people along Silk Road routes*

More patients from Central Asian nations sought medical care in the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region last year because of its high quality healthcare and its proximity, according to a senior official.

Foreign patients accessed medical services at hospitals in Urumqi, the regional capital, either in person or via an online diagnosis and consultation platform 8,600 times, an increase of more than 20 percent over 2015, said Liu Chengyuan, deputy mayor of Urumqi.

"We expect to see more foreign patients this year because coming to Urumqi for surgeries and health checks has become a popular trend," he said. "People have been drawn to Xinjiang to seek help from neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons. They are also interested in traditional Chinese and Uygur medicine."

As a core area of the Belt and Road Initiative, Xinjiang plans to become an international medical care center to serve foreign patients, especially those from neighboring countries.

The region borders a number of countries, including Russia, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan. It is home to 14 diverse peoples, including Uygur, Kazakh and Tajik ethnic groups－people who speak the same language and have customs similar to neighboring countries.

"The region has natural and cultural advantages of providing medical care to people from countries involved in the initiative," said Peng Yong, deputy director of the Xinjiang Health and Family Planning Commission.

Five major hospitals in Urumqi have provided 500 beds for international patients and are equipped with nurses who can speak Russian and Kazakh. Foreign patients can also receive fast-track services in those hospitals, Peng said, adding that more than 30 hospitals around Xinjiang also plan to launch services for foreigners.

In addition to the public, senior figures from Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan have visited the region 25 times to receive health checks since 2015, Peng added.

The region's online diagnosis and consultation platform includes 11 top hospitals in China, 17 in Kyrgyzstan, two in Georgia and five in Kazakhstan. Fifteen hospitals in Tajikistan also plan to join the platform, Peng said.

Liu said the platform will eventually include 100 hospitals to provide timely help to foreign patients.

"Medical care is a basic and common need. Providing lifesaving medical care to foreign patients can create mutual trust," Peng said.

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## Shotgunner51

*Greece and China sign 3-year action plan for Railroads, Ports and Airports*
TornosNews.gr 16.05.2017 | 17:49 






Call issued to Greek and Chinese enterprises to expand cooperation between the two countries in the domains of *infrastructure*, *shipping* and* telecoms*

Greece and China signed a* “three-year action plan” *for joint projects over the weekend that will see Greece claim a share of Beijing’s 100-billion-euro investment program for the countries on the so-called New Silk Road.

The plan signed is simply a statement of intent and does not come with any contracts or specific commitments. However, it concerns investments in transport, energy and telecommunications,_ “whose successful implementation could bring investments running into billions of euros,”_ according to Deputy Economy Minister Stergios Pitsiorlas, who signed the action plan on Greece’s behalf.​
_“There are investment plans on the table concerning the rail network, ports and airports, and stretching to telecom and energy network interconnections and investment in power plants, including those using renewable energy sources,” _added Pitsiorlas, the former head of the state privatization fund (TAIPED).​
In his meeting with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras on Saturday, Chinese President Xi Jinping issued a call to Greek and Chinese enterprises to expand cooperation between the two countries in the domains of infrastructure, shipping and telecoms.


http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/tourism...on-plan-for-railroads-ports-and-airports.html
http://www.ekathimerini.com/218464/...thens-and-beijing-sign-three-year-action-plan

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## Devil Soul

*China’s new world order*
ZAHID HUSSAINUPDATED ABOUT 4 HOURS AGO
 64 COMMENTS
 PRINT




The writer is an author and journalist.


CHINA recently hosted 29 heads of state and government at the Belt and Road Forum, reinforcing the country’s claim to leadership of an emerging geopolitical and economic world order. The summit conference that also attracted representatives of more than 40 other countries and multilateral financial agencies was the clearest expression yet of China breaking out of its old foreign policy mould that had restrained it from attempting a global role.

China’s multibillion-dollar One Belt, One Road (OBOR) infrastructure development project linking the old Silk Road with Europe, is a manifestation of China’s growing geopolitical ambitions. A brainchild of President Xi Jinping, perhaps, the most powerful Chinese leader after Mao Zedong, OBOR has now been under development for four years, spanning 68 countries and accounting for up to 40 per cent of global GDP.

President Xi’s ambition of propelling China to centre stage of the global power game represents a sharp departure from the approach of previous Chinese leaders who strictly adhered to Deng Xiaoping’s tenet to “hide our capabilities and bide our time, never try to take the lead”. Thus over the past two decades, China has avoided being drawn into global conflicts and has completely focused its energies on development that helped it to become an economic superpower.

China’s push to take the world leadership has come at a time when a strong anti-globalisation wave is sweeping the Western world that is showing a growing tendency of returning to more protectionist regimes. The United States under the Trump administration with its inward-looking approach has virtually abandoned the mantle of globalisation thus ceding greater space to Beijing’s assertion.

*It is evident that OBOR is not just about infrastructure development.*
It is not surprising that the OBOR initiative is being embraced by a wide range of countries from Asia and Africa to Europe and even South America, notwithstanding some serious concerns about the cost and benefits of the enormously ambitious project. Surely fewer European countries showed up at the Beijing summit because of their reservations over China’s reluctance to open doors to foreign companies.

While addressing the forum, President Xi tried to alleviate concerns about China’s dominance, inviting other countries to take part in the project. China is spending roughly $150bn a year in the 68 countries that have so far signed on to the plan. According to Chinese government figures, around $1 trillion have already been invested in OBOR, with several more trillions due to be invested over the next decade. This way Beijing hopes to find a more profitable avenue for the country’s vast foreign exchange reserves, mostly invested in low-interest-bearing US government securities.

It is evident that OBOR is not just about infrastructure development; one of the major objectives of the initiative is to turn Eurasia into an economic and trading centre, breaking the domination of the American-led transatlantic regime. It is also a manifestation of the changing geopolitics and the realignment of forces, reflecting a move to shift the centre of gravity of trade to the East and establish China’s predominance in global politics.

Indeed, Russia has lent active support to the Chinese initiative indicating a growing strategic partnership between the two countries. Moscow’s major interest is to consolidate its primacy in Central Asia through regional security and a trade bloc.

However, it is willing to accommodate China’s economic and geopolitical interests more than ever because of Western sanctions following the Ukraine crisis. Since 2014, the two countries have reached several high-profile multibillion-dollar economic and trade deals signalling their close, evolving economic ties. Unsurprisingly, Russian President Vladimir Putin used the forum to lash out at the US and other Western countries over their increasingly protectionist policies.

Surely China considers the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) a “flagship project” in the whole scheme of OBOR. This multibillion-dollar investment programme has added a new dimension to the friendship between Pakistan and China. From purely strategic and security cooperation spanning more than five decades, the relationship has now evolved into a dynamic economic and commercial partnership.

This growing bilateral cooperation comes at a time when China’s rising geopolitical ambition also underscores its concerns about Pakistan’s security and its fledgling economy. Given its geostrategic position, Pakistan has the potential to serve as a nexus for the two routes — the continental Eurasian Silk Road Economic Belt and a Southeast Asian Maritime Silk Road

Although Beijing downplays geostrategic motivations, CPEC represents an international extension of China’s effort to deliver security through economic development. Notwithstanding their growing strategic cooperation, terrorist sanctuaries in Pakistan have remained a major source of worry for the Chinese government. China’s security concerns, especially those that arise from its restive region of Xinjiang, and the Islamist militancy threatening Pakistan’s stability have also been a strong factor in Beijing’s new approach to achieving security through economic development.

This growing Pakistan-China strategic alliance has also exposed the regional geopolitical fault lines. Predictably, India boycotted the Beijing forum citing serious reservations about the project, particularly regarding China-funded development in Gilgit-Baltistan that is linked to the Kashmir dispute. Yet another excuse given by the Indian authorities was that a trans-regional project of this magnitude required wider consultation.

Explore: _Is India trying to convince the world China’s OBOR plan is secretly colonial?_

Despite their geopolitical rivalry and long-standing border dispute, trade between India and China has grown significantly crossing $100bn. But there have been some visible signs of tension between the two most populous nations in the past few years with the strengthening of ties between Washington and New Delhi. India has openly sided with the US and Japan against China over the South China Sea issue.

Indeed, the success of the summit has provoked a strong reaction from Delhi. So much so that some leading commentators have called for tougher action to obstruct the OBOR project. “Far from this, CPEC (the life and soul of OBOR) threatens India’s territorial integrity in a manner unseen since 1962,” Samir Saran, a leading Indian commentator wrote in an op-ed piece.

Notwithstanding the scepticism, OBOR is a new geo-economic reality representing an emerging world order. The process cannot be reversed.

_The writer is an author and journalist._

zhussain100@yahoo.com

Twitter: @hidhussain

_Published in Dawn, May 17th, 2017_

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## TaiShang

*Putin Aligns With Xi in Crafting the New World (Trade) Order*

Russia will be *a key ally* for China's One Road, One Belt initiative



Pepe Escobar 


Tue, May 16, 2017 | 




*Putin was treated as the guest of honor*

History will record the Belt and Road Forum in Beijing marked the juncture where the 21st century New Silk Roads assumed their full character of *Globalization 2.0, or “inclusive globalization,” *as defined by President Xi Jinping in Davos earlier this year.

I have dealt with the monumental stakes here and here. Terminology, of course, remains a minor problem. What was once defined as One Belt, One Road (OBOR) is now promoted as the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). Much is still somewhat lost in translation in English, what matters is that Xi has managed to imprint the myriad possibilities inbuilt in the concept especially across the Global South.

An amiable host, Xi in Beijing went 'no holds barred' extolling the inclusive integration merits of OBOR/BRI. It also helps that along the way, this being China, his spin doctors came up with a lovely metaphor to illustrate how OBOR/BRI should find its force as a common,* pan-Eurasian effort*; “_Wild Swan geese [found across Asia but not in Europe] are able to fly far and safely through winds and storms because they move in flocks and help each other as a team._”

And arguably the key member of this flock of wild swan geese happens to be Russia.

#Putin plays piano at Xi Jinping's residence during forum in Beijing https://t.co/i5M9w3QFeH pic.twitter.com/xGuQyr07wF

— RT (@RT_com)
May 15, 2017
*
Follow the geese*

President Putin and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov were guests of honor at the forum. *At a business breakfast discussion*, *Xi seated Putin to his right and Lavrov to his left.*

At a Leaders Roundtable summit on the second day of the forum - a sort of Silk Road United Nations, with the microphones open equally to all – Putin touched on a key point; *the symbiosis, formalized since 2015, between OBOR/BRI and the Russia-driven Eurasian Economic Union (EEU)*, currently formed by Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Armenia.

As Putin said, “_some 50 European, Asian and Latin American states_” are interested in cooperation with the EEU. While the EEU and China are discussing their own, wide-ranging trade/economic deal, the EEU is also consulting, among others, with Iran, India, Serbia, Singapore, and Egypt.

But it was during his speech at the inaugural session of the forum that Putin managed to distill what amounts to a concentrate of Russian foreign policy.

Here are the key topics.

- Through “*integration formats like the EEU, OBOR, the SCO, and ASEAN, we can build the foundation for a larger Eurasian partnership.*”

- There is now a “_unique opportunity to create a common cooperation framework from the Atlantic to the Pacific 
– for the first time in history._” Essentially, this is what Putin himself had once proposed – then shunned by EU/NATO – even before Xi announced OBOR in 2013.

- “_Russia is not only willing to be a reliable trading partner but also seeks to invest in the creation of joint ventures and new production capacities in partnering states, to invest in industrial facilities, sales, and services._”

- Russia is investing in building “_a system of modern and well-connected transport corridors_,” “_expanding the capacity of the Baikal-Amur Mainline and the Trans-Siberian Railway, investing significant resources into improvements to the Northeast Passage_.”

- And then, looking at the Big Picture, “_the infrastructure projects within the EEU and the One Belt, One Road initiative in conjunction with the Northeast Passage can completely reconfigure transportation on the Eurasian continent._”

- Putin expects “_newly established financial institutions like the New Development Bank (BRICS Development Bank) and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank to offer a supporting hand to private investors._”

 And then, the clincher, fully aligned with Xi’s vision; “_*Greater Eurasia is not an abstract geopolitical arrangement but, without exaggeration, a truly civilization-wide project looking toward the future*_*.*”

*When in doubt, call the SCO*

Compared with the depth and breadth of this shared vision, *nothing could be more pedestrian than the official India attitude*; not only sending a low-level delegation to Beijing, but imprinting on mainstream Indian media the notion that OBOR/BRI is “_little more than a colonial enterprise [that would leave] debt and broken communities in its wake_”.

The flock of wild swan geese flying toward Eurasia integration is now a fact of life. East Asian output, for that matter, will surpass North America’s during the Trump era. The future, rather, the dissolution of unipolar hegemony will be decided in Eurasia, particularly East Asia.

India may certainly harbor its own strategic agenda. But self-marginalization of the one and only integrated development project in the 21st century hardly qualifies as savvy diplomacy.

So it looks like Putin once again will have his work cut out for him. India, a historical partner of the former USSR, still maintains good trade relations with Russia. Iran, for its part, is as much a key Indian energy partner as China’s. So the road map ahead spells out Moscow, alongside Tehran, playing the go-betweens trying to sweeten India into the Eurasia integration path.

That could well take place within the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), which from now on will have a full plate not only trying to smooth out a feasible Afghan peace process but making sure India and Pakistan find a political entente cordiale.

It will be a bit like older brothers trying to instill some sense into younger ones – as Russia and China, as part of their strategic partnership, have already worked hard to manage the twin admission of India and Pakistan into the SCO.

Iran will also become a full member shortly. So we will soon have an active SCO from Southwest Asia all the way to South Asia, with a political-economic integration agenda expanding the initial drive to fight myriad manifestations of Salafi-jihadi terror.

This slowly but surely progressive convergence fits into the larger goals of the Russia-China strategic partnership, which once again, as demonstrated during the Beijing forum, is all about Eurasia integration.

The invisible story at the Beijing forum was that as much as Turkey is a key node of OBOR/BRI and Kazakhstan is a key node between OBOR/BRI and the EEU, *it’s China and Russia that will truly advance the complex roadmap of this “**civilization-wide project.”*

Source: *RT*

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## JSCh

*China’s belt and road infrastructure plan also includes science *
By Dennis Normile, May. 16, 2017 , 12:00 PM

China’s plan to make massive investments in land and sea links with global trading partners also includes a little noticed commitment to support science and engineering, including the creation of dozens of new laboratories.

The belt and road initiative—originally announced in fall 2013 and officially dubbed the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-Century Maritime Silk Road—is primarily an economic development program. Chinese President Xi Jinping's pet project, it is heavy on infrastructure—calling for new roads, railways, bridges, and ports—to recreate the overland and maritime trade routes that once led to China. Nearly 70 nations have agreed to cooperate in the plan, which aims to foster industrial development not only in the developing nations of Asia and Africa, but also in China's western provinces, which have yet to share in the economic prosperity of the country's coastal regions.

China is also planning to use the initiative to flex its scientific and engineering muscles, officials made clear at a 2-day Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation that ended yesterday in Beijing. “Innovation is an important force powering development,” Xi said in a speech to the opening session of the forum. And so the initiative will include technical cooperation in fields including artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, quantum computing, and smart cities. He also mentioned the need to pursue economic growth that is in line with sustainable development goals, and that rests on environmentally friendly approaches.

A science and technology action plan calls for training 5000 foreign scientists, engineers, and managers over the next 5 years, as well as welcoming younger scientists to China on short-term research visits. (That pledge comes on top of a separate program that each year provides 10,000 scholarships to students from developing countries to study in China.) The initiative also calls for setting up 50 joint laboratories, though the research fields and other details are not yet specified. And Xi wants to create a big data service platform on environmental protection, and promises support for countries adapting to climate change.

The Beijing-based Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) is on board with the effort. A year ago it formed a Digital Silk Road program that will bring together scientists from 40 countries to cooperate on space-based Earth observations that might help identify and manage natural resources, protect the environment, and prepare for and respond to disasters. And last fall, the academy organized an international symposium that pulled together 50 countries from along the trade routes to explore further opportunities for cooperation. CAS sees the belt and road effort as China “shouldering more international responsibility,” academy President Bai Chunli said in a statement prior to the summit.

So far, China has committed some $1 trillion to the belt and road initiative, which will unfold over many years.

DOI: 10.1126/science.aal1198




China’s belt and road infrastructure plan also includes science | Science | AAAS

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## The Accountant

n


Godman said:


> Cartoon of the Day in DailyMirror a major SL newspaper


nice

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## ckf

Srinivas said:


> That is promoting , show me where India is selling its assets and asking for aid?
> 
> 
> They want to kill the advantage that other countries have like cheap labour, human resources, potential growth prospects and resources.
> 
> Reason why they are venturing into Vietnam, Pakistan , Africa etc...etc.
> 
> 95 % of margin goes to china on a mobile manufactured with Chinese parts sold in India, imagine what these can do to other countries who are under the grip of obor. Chinese will suck all the resources dry and leave once the potential decreases and the countries no longer has potential growth prospects.


By your twisted logic, all the consumers/countries around the world buying Chinese goods are stupid...all the Indian/government buying and allowing importing of Xiaomi phones are idiots. Your are too smart for us idiots.

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## Srinivas

ckf said:


> By your twisted logic, all the consumers/countries around the world buying Chinese goods are stupid...all the Indian/government buying and allowing importing of Xiaomi phones are idiots. Your are too smart for us idiots.



Buying products and selling resources are two different things !


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## ckf

Srinivas said:


> Buying products and selling resources are two different things !


[/QUOTE]
Do you understand comparative advantage in Trade, and why people trade. S.Korea and Japan has no natural resources, but plenty of economic brain power....resource is valuable and potentially a curse (Saudi). So the Idea China sucking India, Pakistan, Sri lanka and Vietnam's natural resources as fuel is just one sided...advancement in society comes when its citizen have access to technology and material goods which promotes learning, education and healthy competition...

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## 武成王

Presently the number of US oversea military base is 374, distributed in more than 140 countries and regions, 300000 troops. China has only 1 if count in Djibouti. Without world wide war, or similar event as disintegration of USSR, there's no dramatic change of global order.

OBOR does bring political impact however it's dramatically exaggerated by fantasy media,
US act as a very important role in global security order whether we like it or not, without US,
the world would suddenly mess up, war could breakup everywhere. However the power of US should be *balanced *to reduce abuse.

Trump would strength American military capability and capacity as he promised days ago, does an "inward looking US" need spend more money on military? No. The global order of economy is gradually changing, e.g. rising of China, India, SEA and Africa etc. The security order ? No in foreseeable future.

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## samsara

*WHAT BELT AND ROAD SNUB MEANS FOR SINGAPORE’S TIES WITH CHINA*

_Lion City’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong was not among the many heads of state invited to a summit for Chinese President Xi Jinping’s new Silk Road, suggesting Beijing is still smarting from a protracted diplomatic spat_

 By Bhavan Jaipragas - SCMP - 18 May 2017






*Not invited*: Singaporean Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong.​
*China’s decision not to invite Singapore’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong to last weekend’s Belt and Road Forum highlights the still-strained ties between the two countries, observers say, though officials in the Lion City have tried to shrug off talk of any diplomatic rift.*

Of the 10 Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean) members, only three countries were not represented by their heads of government at the high-level summit in Beijing: Singapore, Thailand and Brunei. Twenty-nine national leaders and the representatives of 28 other countries attended the two-day meeting to discuss the China-led initiative to rebuild the ancient Silk Road trade route through a network of new ports, railways and roads.

The Singapore delegation was led by national development minister Lawrence Wong, while Thailand was represented by foreign minister Don Pramudwinai and four other cabinet ministers. Brunei, the tiny but oil-rich kingdom ruled by Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, was represented by *second foreign minister Lim Jock Seng*.

*In an interview with travelling Singaporean media, Wong revealed that the invitations were decided by China. It was the first official acknowledgement that Lee was not invited.* In sharp contrast, regional counterparts including Malaysia’s Najib Razak, Indonesia’s Joko Widodo and the Philippines’ Rodrigo Duterte prominently highlighted their participation in the summit on social media. Lee’s office did not respond to _This Week in Asia’s_ queries on the matter.






The Philippines' Rodrigo Duterte, Indonesia's Joko Widodo and Malaysia's Najib Razak in a photo shared on Najib’s Twitter account.​
*Smaller nations with less-established diplomatic ties with Beijing also sent their heads of government to the summit. These included Fiji, Chile, Greece, and Hungary.*

Britain sent finance minister Philip Hammond, the government’s de facto number two, while the US delegation was led by White House adviser Matt Pottinger.

Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a Southeast Asian foreign policy expert, said in the case of some countries like Thailand, heads of government were probably left off the guest list because of their peripheral geographical location in the sea and land routes linking China with the rest of Asia and Africa.

PROTRACTED SPAT

But while nearly half of the 57 countries were not represented by their heads of government, foreign policy experts said Lee’s absence was conspicuous as it provided clues on the extent of the fallout following a protracted diplomatic spat between the two countries over the past year.

*$55b trade route, and a rekindled China-Pakistan love affair*

Xue Li, a senior research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences think tank, said China’s decision not to invite the Singaporean leader reflected a growing belief in Beijing that *the Lion City sought only economic benefits from China, while “relying on the US for security”*.

“*China is gradually recognising this and therefore doesn’t really care if the Singapore PM attended or not,*” Xue said.

Michael Tai, a Singapore-China watcher at Cambridge University, said the non-invite showed the city state had “_not patched things up with Beijing since last year’s Non-Aligned Movement Summit incident_”. He was referring to the public exchange of words between *Stanley Loh, the Singaporean envoy in Beijing*, and *the state-linked Global Times newspaper* over a report on the city state’s position on the South China Sea dispute during last year’s Non-Aligned Movement Summit.






Nine Singapore military vehicles at a container terminal in Hong Kong, where they were seized by customs. Photo: AP​Bilateral ties hit another low in November after Hong Kong customs seized nine Singapore military vehicles en route from exercises in Taiwan to the Lion City, citing a breach of local laws on the shipment of strategic commodities. The vehicles were returned two months later, but China used the episode to voice its displeasure at Singapore’s longstanding policy of conducting military exercises in Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province.

*Hong Kong to return seized armoured vehicles to Singapore*

After the vehicles were returned on January 24, Singaporean officials declared that their behind-the-scenes diplomatic efforts had helped to fix the months-long diplomatic turbulence between the two countries. Lee, in an interview with the BBC in March said “_both sides handled it carefully and there had been a satisfactory outcome_”. *But the non-invitation to the weekend summit showed he and other Singaporean leaders were not on the same page as Beijing on the state of bilateral relations, some observers said.*

“_*What we can deduce is that China is laying its unhappiness over these issues with the Singaporean head of government, who happens to be Lee Hsien Loong,*_” said Chong Ja Ian, a Chinese foreign policy expert at the National University of Singapore.

*WATCH: Belt and Road - What, when, why, how?*

The incident was not the first time Lee, the son of Singapore’s founding premier Lee Kuan Yew, has come under pressure from Beijing. Months before taking over as premier in August 2004, Lee triggered a furious reaction from China after he made a private visit to Taiwan and offered to mediate between the leaders of the self-governing island and Beijing. China, which considers Taiwan a renegade province, portrayed the gesture as an interference in domestic affairs and temporarily suspended high-level diplomatic exchanges.

*The senior Lee, who died in 2015 aged 91, is widely recognised as the architect of an adroit foreign policy that embraces all major powers. He maintained close ties with senior Chinese leaders even after he retreated from public life following a near five-decade political career.*

*Can China really deliver Malaysia’s Singapore slayer?*

“_*The current administration in Singapore is different from the generation of Lee Kuan Yew,*_” said Xue, the Chinese foreign policy expert. “_*They are used to dealing with China from their Western perspective that is being a teacher of China, rather than a follower of China,*_” he added.

Tai, the Cambridge-based observer, said *the new Silk Road could drive a permanent wedge between the two countries*. “_*The Belt and Road promises to bring regional connectivity on an unprecedented scale, which could soon undercut Singapore’s most important asset – her position as the premier trade and financial centre between the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea,”*_ he said.

‘ALL WEATHER FRIENDS’

Singaporean officials meanwhile have maintained the city state is committed to a strong relationship with China. Wong, who led the Singapore delegation at the summit, said the city state could play a role as a key financial hub for the Belt and Road Initiative. The city state has assets under management of US$1.8 trillion, and last year was the top destination for foreign direct investment linked to the new Silk Road. In a forum in Beijing last week, senior Singaporean diplomat Tommy Koh said the Lion City was one of China’s “all weather friends”. “The bottom line is this: Singapore will never allow its relationship with any major power to harm China,” he said.

*WATCH: Chinese President Xi hosts Belt and Road forum*

*He was refuting comments by the Chinese foreign policy observer Ruan Zongze that Singapore was aligned with the US despite publicly claiming it was not.* Officials have also sought to use a series of diplomatic engagements between the two countries this week to downplay talk of strained ties. Senior Communist Party official Zhao Leji met with Lee on Tuesday during an official visit to Singapore. Wong is chairing the World Cities Summit Mayors Forum in Suzhou starting on Thursday. The two-day event is organised by the Singapore government.

And on Friday, Chee Wee Kiong, the permanent secretary of the Singaporean foreign ministry, will co-chair a scheduled China-Asean meeting with Chinese vice-foreign minister Liu Zhenmin. Singapore is the designated coordinator of China-Asean relations.

At home, some online commentators said the episode crystallised the constant exhortations by the late elder Lee on the vulnerability of small states. Lee in 2009 had said “_*a small country must seek a maximum number of friends, while maintaining the freedom to be itself as a sovereign and independent nation*_”.

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## Banglar Bir

*China’s new world order*
Zahid Hussain, May 17, 2017

China recently hosted 29 heads of state and government at the Belt and Road Forum, reinforcing the country’s claim to leadership of an emerging geopolitical and economic world order. The summit conference that also attracted representatives of more than 40 other countries and multilateral financial agencies was the clearest expression yet of China breaking out of its old foreign policy mould that had restrained it from attempting a global role.


China’s multibillion-dollar One Belt, One Road (OBOR) infrastructure development project linking the old Silk Road with Europe, is a manifestation of China’s growing geopolitical ambitions. A brainchild of President Xi Jinping, perhaps, the most powerful Chinese leader after Mao Zedong, OBOR has now been under development for four years, spanning 68 countries and accounting for up to 40 per cent of global GDP.

President Xi’s ambition of propelling China to centre stage of the global power game represents a sharp departure from the approach of previous Chinese leaders who strictly adhered to Deng Xiaoping’s tenet to “hide our capabilities and bide our time, never try to take the lead”. *Thus over the past two decades, China has avoided being drawn into global conflicts and has completely focused its energies on development that helped it to become an economic superpower.*

China’s push to take the world leadership has come at a time when a strong anti-globalisation wave is sweeping the Western world that is showing a growing tendency of returning to more protectionist regimes. The United States under the Trump administration with its inward-looking approach has virtually abandoned the mantle of globalisation thus ceding greater space to Beijing’s assertion.

It is not surprising that the OBOR initiative is being embraced by a wide range of countries from Asia and Africa to Europe and even South America, notwithstanding some serious concerns about the cost and benefits of the enormously ambitious project. Surely fewer European countries showed up at the Beijing summit because of their reservations over China’s reluctance to open doors to foreign companies.

While addressing the forum, President Xi tried to alleviate concerns about China’s dominance, inviting other countries to take part in the project. China is spending roughly $150bn a year in the 68 countries that have so far signed on to the plan. According to Chinese government figures, around $1 trillion have already been invested in OBOR, with several more trillions due to be invested over the next decade. This way Beijing hopes to find a more profitable avenue for the country’s vast foreign exchange reserves, mostly invested in low-interest-bearing US government securities.

It is evident that OBOR is not just about infrastructure development; one of the major objectives of the initiative is to turn Eurasia into an economic and trading centre, breaking the domination of the American-led transatlantic regime. It is also a manifestation of the changing geopolitics and the realignment of forces, reflecting a move to shift the centre of gravity of trade to the East and establish China’s predominance in global politics.

Indeed, Russia has lent active support to the Chinese initiative indicating a growing strategic partnership between the two countries. Moscow’s major interest is to consolidate its primacy in Central Asia through regional security and a trade bloc.

However, it is willing to accommodate China’s economic and geopolitical interests more than ever because of Western sanctions following the Ukraine crisis. Since 2014, the two countries have reached several high-profile multibillion-dollar economic and trade deals signalling their close, evolving economic ties. Unsurprisingly, Russian President Vladimir Putin used the forum to lash out at the US and other Western countries over their increasingly protectionist policies.

Surely China considers the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) a “flagship project” in the whole scheme of OBOR. This multibillion-dollar investment programme has added a new dimension to the friendship between Pakistan and China. From purely strategic and security cooperation spanning more than five decades, the relationship has now evolved into a dynamic economic and commercial partnership.

*This growing bilateral cooperation comes at a time when China’s rising geopolitical ambition also underscores its concerns about Pakistan’s security and its fledgling economy. Given its geostrategic position, Pakistan has the potential to serve as a nexus for the two routes — the continental Eurasian Silk Road Economic Belt and a Southeast Asian Maritime Silk Road*

Although Beijing downplays geostrategic motivations, CPEC represents an international extension of China’s effort to deliver security through economic development. Notwithstanding their growing strategic cooperation, terrorist sanctuaries in Pakistan have remained a major source of worry for the Chinese government. China’s security concerns, especially those that arise from its restive region of Xinjiang, and the Islamist militancy threatening Pakistan’s stability have also been a strong factor in Beijing’s new approach to achieving security through economic development.

This growing Pakistan-China strategic alliance has also exposed the regional geopolitical fault lines. Predictably, India boycotted the Beijing forum citing serious reservations about the project, particularly regarding China-funded development in Gilgit-Baltistan that is linked to the Kashmir dispute. Yet another excuse given by the Indian authorities was that a trans-regional project of this magnitude required wider consultation.

Despite their geopolitical rivalry and long-standing border dispute, trade between India and China has grown significantly crossing $100bn. But there have been some visible signs of tension between the two most populous nations in the past few years with the strengthening of ties between Washington and New Delhi. *India has openly sided with the US and Japan against China over the South China Sea issue*.

Indeed, the success of the summit has provoked a strong reaction from Delhi. So much so that some leading commentators have called for tougher action to obstruct the OBOR project. “Far from this, CPEC (the life and soul of OBOR) threatens India’s territorial integrity in a manner unseen since 1962,” Samir Saran, a leading Indian commentator wrote in an op-ed piece.

*Notwithstanding the scepticism, OBOR is a new geo-economic reality representing an emerging world order. The process cannot be reversed.*

_[The writer is an author and journalist]

http://southasianmonitor.com/2017/05/17/chinas-new-world-order/_

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## JSCh

* Feature: China's high-tech creates footprints in Belt and Road routes countries *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-05-19 14:24:15_|_Editor: Hou Qiang_

BEIJING, May 19 (Xinhua) -- "This mobile container/vehicle inspection system will soon be delivered to Mexico... It is advanced in that it can erect an arch within several minitues to inspect moving vehicles without stopping them," Cai Zhifu, a worker of Nuctech company, told Xinhua in a recent intervew in Beijing.

Nuctech, derived from China's Tsinghua University and founded in 1997, is an advanced security and inspection solution and service supplier in the world.

The Chinese high-tech company impressed visitors and its potential customers with the world's first 3D scanner for airports at the 17th edition of the Airport Show held on May 15-17 in Dubai, the most populous city of the United Arab Emirates.

Its security equipment and solution have been installed in more than 150 countries and regions worldwide, including more than 50 countries along the Belt and Road routes, which covered customs, civil aviation, railway, postal logistics, border security and other areas, to help fight terrorism, maintain security and protect people's lives and property.

The China-made advanced equipment and system have performed well around the world, namely, in the Palestine-Israel border, the English Channel and the Port of Hamburg in German, and at major international events, such as Olympic Games in Beijing and Brazi's Rio, G20 summit in China's Hangzhou and World Expo in Milan, Italy.

In 2002, Nuctech equipment won reputation by defeating German and U.S. products in an inspection test, during which Nuctech inspected drugs hidden inside a vehicle while the other two failed.

To maintain the highest level of detection, the company will frequently upgrade their systems to compete with terrorists and lawbreakers, who usually upgrade their criminal means, said Wang Weidong, vice chairman of Nuctech.

In 2016, a just-upgraded Nuctech equipment helped Australian Border Security seize 254 kg of cocaine and 104 kg of methamphetamine, worth 186 million U.S. dollars.

Under the Belt and Road Initiative, China's innovative high-tech has brought tangible benefits to countries along the routes, especially in the developing countries, and won local people's recognition.

In Sri Lanka, more than 500 cataract sufferers regained sight in the end of last year, thanks to China-made intraocular lens innovated by Eyebright Medical Group.

Eyebright, a national high-tech enterprise focusing on protection and caring of eyes and vision health, launched in 2014 the first China developed foldable aspheric intraocular lens, breaking the dominance of foreign products in this field.

"Sri Lanka doctors look at the Chinese intraocular lens with new eyes, and many local cataract patients came to seek help," said Zhang Shunhua, doctor at Peking Union Medical College Hospital, who joined a Chinese government medical mission to Sri Lanka specialized in cataract treatment last year.

Through China's overseas medical assistance mission, Eyebright's products have helped people in many countries, including Cambodia, Sudan and Congo, to regain sight.

Nuctech and Eyebright are only two examples of many Chinese innovative enterprises, which have reached the Belt and Road routes countries and in turn have been supported by the initiative, proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping in 2013, with an aim to build trade and infrastructure networks connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along and beyond the ancient Silk Road routes.

Over recent years, many Chinese high-tech companies, like telecom giants Xiaomi, Huawei and CRRC, supported by the Belt and Road Initiative, have opened up foreign markets, helping make innovation a new "name card" for China.

Chinese companies, especially those that are hosted and supported by Zhongguancun, a high-tech hub in the Chinese capital city, are trying to share with other countries their expertise in telecommunication and information technologies.

Technological innovation is an important momentum for development. China, with innovative technology and superb products, has begun to provide Chinese solutions and expertise to other countries, rather than the mere made-in-China products, to realize common prosperity.

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## JSCh

*Chinese crop experts bring hope of boost to food supply*
By Hou Liqiang and Liu Kun | China Daily Europe | Updated: 2017-05-19 10:09 

Large harvests of Chinese crops planted in Africa have raised hopes on the continent of greater grain yields to combat food shortages, Chinese scientists say.

"Trial plantings of quality Chinese crop varieties, including wheat, rice, corn, sweet sorghum and grapes, in Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, Sudan and other countries have shown promising results," says Wang Qingfeng, director of the Sino-Africa Joint Research Center in Kenya.

He says the results have been especially good in Kenya. With about 6.7 hectares of demonstration farmland, the center has conducted trial planting of high-yield corn for three years after variety screening and research. The yield of sweet sorghum has increased by 40 percent in trial planting, while hybrid rice has yielded an average 6,000 to 7,500 kilograms per hectare, four to five times the yield of local varieties, he says.




*A testing field at Maasai Mara University in Kenya. Provided to China Daily*

Researchers at the center have collected some local varieties of rice, wheat and sorghum for gene sequencing to develop crops that could suit the local soil and climate, he says.

Further screening is still needed to determine the varieties for promotion after more comprehensive research into local environment and trial planting. But to help start production as soon as possible, the Kenya center has applied to China's Ministry of Commerce to establish a Sino-Kenyan modern agricultural demonstration and training center, he says.

The demonstration and training center will be responsible for screening and bringing in high-yield crop varieties, demonstrating latest planting techniques and training talents of agricultural production and product processing to improve the agricultural production capacity in Africa, says Wang.

The center has signed cooperation agreements with some Chinese agricultural companies, including Hubei Provincial Seed Group, to help in technology achievement transformation, demonstration and promotion and will seek cooperation with more companies.

China has helped African nations when their grain harvests have been affected by drought, but what the research center is doing represents a change to this aid strategy. The new model gives more "soft aid" that features technology and management approaches, says Wang, who is also deputy director of the Chinese Academy of Sciences' Wuhan Botanical Garden.

"The change better meets the need of African people and could enhance understanding and trust of them with Chinese people and deepen the friendship," he says.

The research center, which was opened in September at Jomo Kenyatta University of Agriculture and Technology, focuses on biodiversity protection, remote resources sensing, microbiology and the promotion of modern agricultural practices.

It covers 4,300 square meters and comprises a botanical garden, state-of-the-art laboratories, herb ariums, greenhouses, administration offices and conference and accommodation facilities. The Chinese Academy of Sciences supports its management and has provided equipment worth more than $2.2 million.

Meanwhile, Chinese agriculture experts have also been making efforts to increase the yield of rice in Ethiopia.

With funding from the Chinese government, a base for rice experiments and demonstration was established in February in the Werer Agricultural Research Center in Northeast Ethiopia's Afar region, which is affiliated with Ethiopia Institute of Agricultural Research and is 278 kilometers away from the capital, Addis Ababa.

With high temperatures and abundant sunshine, Werer is crossed by the Awash River, the longest in Ethiopia, and is an area suitable for rice planting. The conditions, however, haven't been efficiently used. Rice is planted on dry farmland instead of paddy fields for only one season a year during the rainy season, making yields low, says Luo Xueyi, a Chinese expert who led construction of the base.

Rice has been grown in Ethiopia for more than 40 years, but only about 53,500 hectares of the crop is planted each year in the country with a population of about 99.4 million. With the population on the rise, grain requirements are increasing, while the yield of teff, the main ingredient for Ethiopia's traditional main food, injera, is only about 100 kilograms per hectare. Rice has been listed by the Ethiopian government as an important grain to replace teff and ensure food security, says Luo.

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## Blacklight

Devil Soul said:


> CHINA recently hosted *29 heads of state and government* at the Belt and Road Forum, reinforcing the country’s claim to leadership of an emerging geopolitical and economic world order. The summit conference that also attracted *representatives of more than 40 other countries* and multilateral financial agencies was the clearest expression yet of China breaking out of its old foreign policy mould that had restrained it from attempting a global role.


*29 *heads of state & gov. + *40* gov reps = *69 *Countries.

Can anyone list those* 69 *countries?

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## Shotgunner51

*GREECE: EuroAsia Interconnector at centre of energy and telecom hub hopes*
17 May, 2017
*
EuroAsia Interconnector, the subsea cable that will connect the electricity grids of Israel, Greece and Cyprus, with the capability of selling surplus energy to western European markets, has been deemed as an integral part of Greece’s plans to transform the country into a regional electricity and telecom hub*






The 1,520 km ‘electricity highway’ project has just passed a landmark stage of its development programme, presently executing the final pre-work studies which have been co-financed by the European Union and will lead to the construction works starting this year with the aim of *uniting all three national grids by 2022*.

Several officials accompanying Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras on his visit to Beijing to attend the ‘Belt and Road Forum’ over the weekend, reiterated Greece’s commitment to the interconnector project, in addition to other key energy infrastructure projects, such as oil and gas exploration and the *Trans Adriatic Pipeline (TAP)*.

Already, Foreign Minister Nicos Kotzias warned Turkey a week earlier to de-escalate its military exercises in the Aegean and the Cyprus Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) in the eastern Mediterranean, saying that Greece’s energy security will be a new priority for the government in Athens.

This follows criticism that the Greece-Cyprus Defence Dogma, initiated by Andreas Papandreou nearly two decades ago, never really got off the ground and safeguarding Greek and Cypriot energy interest had been sacrificed in the face of attempts at improved relations with Ankara.

Tweeting after inaugurating the Greek Studies Centre at Beijing’s Foreign Studies University, Tsipras referred to his meetings with Chinese business executives, saying that strategic energy projects - such as an *undersea power cable* linking Athens and Crete in the context of the *EuroAsia Interconnector* - were discussed.

In posts on his @PrimeministerGR account, Tsipras said that he met with economic actors in Beijing, including Chinese electricity company executives.

_“Among others, we spoke with executives of the Chinese Electricity Company about projects of strategic importance, such as the Athens-Crete energy link in the context of the EuroAsia Interconnector,”_ the tweet said.​



On the sidelines of the ‘Belt and Road Forum’, Tsipras met with the Chairman of the *State Grid Corporation of China*, that in December 2016 acquired 24% of the shareholding of the *Greek Independent Power Transmission Operator* (IPTO or ADMIE) in a deal worth 320 mln euros, which is the grid operator that will benefit from one of the three sectors of the EuroAsia Interconnector, that will connect Attica and Crete.

_“The co-operation between EuroAsia Interconnector, the Greek IPTO and State Grid is of the utmost importance for the successful implementation of this strategic infrastructure project, as this is a leading electricity interconnection that is transforming Greece into a key regional energy hub,”_ said EuroAsia’s Chairman and CEO Nasos Ktorides said.​
Meanwhile, the project now includes a telecom facility, as Greece’s Digital Policy and Telecom Minister Nicos Pappas said that the EuroAsia Interconnector will also lay a parallel* fibre-optic link between Israel and Greece*.

_“The prospect of upgrading the EuroAsia Interconnector from a purely energy link to one of energy and telecoms, with the addition of fibre optics, equates into upgrading the digital role that Greece can play in the wider region,”_ Pappas said earlier in Tel Aviv, during a meeting with his Israeli counterpart Avi Blasberger.​He said that the interconnector will be laid at a depth of 2,000 metres and will cost 3 bln euros, financed by the EU, the three partner nations and own funds.

One of the most significant deals signed in Beijing was that between *Greek telco* and Internet giant *Forthnet* and the Chinese company *ZTE*, in the presence of Prime Minister Tsipras and Digital Policy Minister Pappas. The agreement concerns an investment of 500 mln euros, about 350 mln of which will be invested over the next three years.

These deals raise hopes that Greece will be able to reach an agreement on its debt very soon.

Government spokesman Dimitris Tzanakopoulos said that_ “for us the main issue is the country to be included in the quantitative easing programme and anything that leads to a debt settlement that will open the door to the country’s inclusion is acceptable for us.” _​
He added that, ahead of the Eurogroup meeting on May 22, the primary surpluses must be defined in order a comprehensive agreement to exist because on this depends the size of the mid-term measures for the debt. He noted that the discussion will certainly open at the next Eurogroup meeting and expressed the wish that it will be completed in the specific meeting. _“If we don’t succeed to complete the discussions on May 22 and some more days are needed, I believe it is not that terrible,” _ Tzanakopoulos concluded.

In a similar mood, Tsipras and *IMF* chief Christine Lagarde agreed on the need for debt relief during their meeting in Beijing, where Lagarde sent the message that if Berlin does not agree on a feasible fiscal ‘path’ then the IMF will leave from the programme. In this case the measures will not be applied, replied Tsipras.

According to Athens News Agency reports, Tsipras and Lagarde totally agreed on the need for a solution for the Greek debt now and the definition of the mid-term measures immediately. Such a development is necessary in order the growth potentials of the Greek economy to unfold.

Moreover, Lagarde noted that if German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble insists on the view that there is no need for debt relief and a feasible fiscal path after 2018 can’t be agreed, then the IMF will leave from the programme. Tsipras answered that in this case (if the IMF leaves from the programme) then the measures that will be voted in the Greek parliament in the week will not be implemented in 2019-2020

*Returning to growth *

In his address at the Forum for the One Belt One Road project, Tsipras said that it is becoming a crucial vehicle for expanding economic growth, trade and investment. It is crucial for *maximising investment synergies and promoting trade, transport, energy and telecommunications networks*, through projects that can have a big impact on national economies.

_“Greece - after many years of severe crises - is returning to a growth path which opens up remarkable opportunities for investment and trade. My country is once again taking full advantage of its unique geopolitical identity as a *country of Europe, the Mediterranean, the Balkans and the broader Black Sea region*, but also as a maritime country with potential for advancing relations, far beyond its neighbourhood. In this framework Greece is expanding its role as an important regional hub in the fields of trade, transport, energy, telecommunications, logistics, culture and tourism,”_ the Greek PM said.​
_ “As a leading maritime country, looking for new trade routes, we see the great opportunities in the *21st Century Maritime Silk Road*. An increasing number of Greek shipowners build their ships in China, while our biggest port - the port of Piraeus where a very important investment by* COSCO* has been made - is becoming a global gateway to Europe for products coming from Chinese and other Asian ports, including through the Suez Canal. From Piraeus port, the merchandise can easily be transported by rail to many destinations in the Balkans and in Central Europe.”_​
The president of the *World Bank*, Jim Yong Kim, referred to the Prime Minister’s statements regarding the need for synergies, partnerships and dialogue so that the necessary investments are planned on a stable basis.

He also supported Tsipras’ proposal the Belt and Road Forum to be held again in the future as the first meeting was a success. Moreover, he referred to the prospects of the global economy and the possible risks.

*Tsakalotos: exit programme in 2018 *

Meanwhile, Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos said on Monday that the Greek government wants to exit from the *bailout programme* in 2018 with a solution for its debt burden.

_“Our aim is to exit this program in 2018 […] to leave the extreme supervision and enter a different path. And for this other path we need a solution on debt so that it is sustainable, we need to tap the markets,”_ he told a parliamentary committee debate on the prior actions agreed with the country’s lenders.

The minister said the government does not claim to have achieved a “success story”, as previous governments have in the past, noting there are _“many things in the agreement that will sadden people”_ but there are also _“things for which we can be pleased about”_.

_“This is why we say the main battle is the fight against supervision,” _he explained, adding that _“there will be gray areas” _even when the country completes its aid programme.

Finally, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin said on Friday, in a statement from the G7 Finance Ministers’ Meeting taking place in Bari that _“the ball is now in the court of Greece’s European partners, who have to keep their side of the bargain regarding debt relief.” _

_“They must now implement what was necessary from the beginning... In other words, in some way or another to relieve the debt burden on the Greek economy and its budget,”_ Sapin said, noting that all parties in the talks had expressed a desire to reach agreement before the Eurogroup on May 22.​*European Commissioner for Economic and Financial Affairs* Pierre Moscovici also expressed optimism that a deal will be found for Greece.

_“I am confident the will is there and Greece will be able to turn the page on a too-long chapter of austerity and open a new chapter of growth and investment in a framework of stability,”_ he said. _“After so many years of recession, the Greek people really need that."_​The Eurozone countries and the IMF are expected to agree on the target for primary surpluses that Greece will have to achieve after 2018. Concerning debt, the Eurogroup wants to reach a decision on concrete relief measures that will satisfy the IMF to such an extent that it will be able to announce the same day that it will ask its governing council to approve a new program for Greece.

http://www.financialmirror.com/news-details.php?nid=35287

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## Jlaw

samsara said:


> *WHAT BELT AND ROAD SNUB MEANS FOR SINGAPORE’S TIES WITH CHINA*
> 
> _Lion City’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong was not among the many heads of state invited to a summit for Chinese President Xi Jinping’s new Silk Road, suggesting Beijing is still smarting from a protracted diplomatic spat_
> 
> By Bhavan Jaipragas - SCMP - 18 May 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Not invited*: Singaporean Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong.​
> *China’s decision not to invite Singapore’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong to last weekend’s Belt and Road Forum highlights the still-strained ties between the two countries, observers say, though officials in the Lion City have tried to shrug off talk of any diplomatic rift.*
> 
> Of the 10 Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean) members, only three countries were not represented by their heads of government at the high-level summit in Beijing: Singapore, Thailand and Brunei. Twenty-nine national leaders and the representatives of 28 other countries attended the two-day meeting to discuss the China-led initiative to rebuild the ancient Silk Road trade route through a network of new ports, railways and roads.
> 
> The Singapore delegation was led by national development minister Lawrence Wong, while Thailand was represented by foreign minister Don Pramudwinai and four other cabinet ministers. Brunei, the tiny but oil-rich kingdom ruled by Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, was represented by *second foreign minister Lim Jock Seng*.
> 
> *In an interview with travelling Singaporean media, Wong revealed that the invitations were decided by China. It was the first official acknowledgement that Lee was not invited.* In sharp contrast, regional counterparts including Malaysia’s Najib Razak, Indonesia’s Joko Widodo and the Philippines’ Rodrigo Duterte prominently highlighted their participation in the summit on social media. Lee’s office did not respond to _This Week in Asia’s_ queries on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Philippines' Rodrigo Duterte, Indonesia's Joko Widodo and Malaysia's Najib Razak in a photo shared on Najib’s Twitter account.​
> *Smaller nations with less-established diplomatic ties with Beijing also sent their heads of government to the summit. These included Fiji, Chile, Greece, and Hungary.*
> 
> Britain sent finance minister Philip Hammond, the government’s de facto number two, while the US delegation was led by White House adviser Matt Pottinger.
> 
> Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a Southeast Asian foreign policy expert, said in the case of some countries like Thailand, heads of government were probably left off the guest list because of their peripheral geographical location in the sea and land routes linking China with the rest of Asia and Africa.
> 
> PROTRACTED SPAT
> 
> But while nearly half of the 57 countries were not represented by their heads of government, foreign policy experts said Lee’s absence was conspicuous as it provided clues on the extent of the fallout following a protracted diplomatic spat between the two countries over the past year.
> 
> *$55b trade route, and a rekindled China-Pakistan love affair*
> 
> Xue Li, a senior research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences think tank, said China’s decision not to invite the Singaporean leader reflected a growing belief in Beijing that *the Lion City sought only economic benefits from China, while “relying on the US for security”*.
> 
> “*China is gradually recognising this and therefore doesn’t really care if the Singapore PM attended or not,*” Xue said.
> 
> Michael Tai, a Singapore-China watcher at Cambridge University, said the non-invite showed the city state had “_not patched things up with Beijing since last year’s Non-Aligned Movement Summit incident_”. He was referring to the public exchange of words between *Stanley Loh, the Singaporean envoy in Beijing*, and *the state-linked Global Times newspaper* over a report on the city state’s position on the South China Sea dispute during last year’s Non-Aligned Movement Summit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nine Singapore military vehicles at a container terminal in Hong Kong, where they were seized by customs. Photo: AP​Bilateral ties hit another low in November after Hong Kong customs seized nine Singapore military vehicles en route from exercises in Taiwan to the Lion City, citing a breach of local laws on the shipment of strategic commodities. The vehicles were returned two months later, but China used the episode to voice its displeasure at Singapore’s longstanding policy of conducting military exercises in Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province.
> 
> *Hong Kong to return seized armoured vehicles to Singapore*
> 
> After the vehicles were returned on January 24, Singaporean officials declared that their behind-the-scenes diplomatic efforts had helped to fix the months-long diplomatic turbulence between the two countries. Lee, in an interview with the BBC in March said “_both sides handled it carefully and there had been a satisfactory outcome_”. *But the non-invitation to the weekend summit showed he and other Singaporean leaders were not on the same page as Beijing on the state of bilateral relations, some observers said.*
> 
> “_*What we can deduce is that China is laying its unhappiness over these issues with the Singaporean head of government, who happens to be Lee Hsien Loong,*_” said Chong Ja Ian, a Chinese foreign policy expert at the National University of Singapore.
> 
> *WATCH: Belt and Road - What, when, why, how?*
> 
> The incident was not the first time Lee, the son of Singapore’s founding premier Lee Kuan Yew, has come under pressure from Beijing. Months before taking over as premier in August 2004, Lee triggered a furious reaction from China after he made a private visit to Taiwan and offered to mediate between the leaders of the self-governing island and Beijing. China, which considers Taiwan a renegade province, portrayed the gesture as an interference in domestic affairs and temporarily suspended high-level diplomatic exchanges.
> 
> *The senior Lee, who died in 2015 aged 91, is widely recognised as the architect of an adroit foreign policy that embraces all major powers. He maintained close ties with senior Chinese leaders even after he retreated from public life following a near five-decade political career.*
> 
> *Can China really deliver Malaysia’s Singapore slayer?*
> 
> “_*The current administration in Singapore is different from the generation of Lee Kuan Yew,*_” said Xue, the Chinese foreign policy expert. “_*They are used to dealing with China from their Western perspective that is being a teacher of China, rather than a follower of China,*_” he added.
> 
> Tai, the Cambridge-based observer, said *the new Silk Road could drive a permanent wedge between the two countries*. “_*The Belt and Road promises to bring regional connectivity on an unprecedented scale, which could soon undercut Singapore’s most important asset – her position as the premier trade and financial centre between the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea,”*_ he said.
> 
> ‘ALL WEATHER FRIENDS’
> 
> Singaporean officials meanwhile have maintained the city state is committed to a strong relationship with China. Wong, who led the Singapore delegation at the summit, said the city state could play a role as a key financial hub for the Belt and Road Initiative. The city state has assets under management of US$1.8 trillion, and last year was the top destination for foreign direct investment linked to the new Silk Road. In a forum in Beijing last week, senior Singaporean diplomat Tommy Koh said the Lion City was one of China’s “all weather friends”. “The bottom line is this: Singapore will never allow its relationship with any major power to harm China,” he said.
> 
> *WATCH: Chinese President Xi hosts Belt and Road forum*
> 
> *He was refuting comments by the Chinese foreign policy observer Ruan Zongze that Singapore was aligned with the US despite publicly claiming it was not.* Officials have also sought to use a series of diplomatic engagements between the two countries this week to downplay talk of strained ties. Senior Communist Party official Zhao Leji met with Lee on Tuesday during an official visit to Singapore. Wong is chairing the World Cities Summit Mayors Forum in Suzhou starting on Thursday. The two-day event is organised by the Singapore government.
> 
> And on Friday, Chee Wee Kiong, the permanent secretary of the Singaporean foreign ministry, will co-chair a scheduled China-Asean meeting with Chinese vice-foreign minister Liu Zhenmin. Singapore is the designated coordinator of China-Asean relations.
> 
> At home, some online commentators said the episode crystallised the constant exhortations by the late elder Lee on the vulnerability of small states. Lee in 2009 had said “_*a small country must seek a maximum number of friends, while maintaining the freedom to be itself as a sovereign and independent nation*_”.


Father smart, son a US brown noser.

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## cirr



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## onebyone

New Sino-European freight train route starting from Shenzhen opens

Photos taken on May 22, 2017 show the first freight train of China Railway Express from the city of Shenzhen to European countries at Yantian Port in Shenzhen, south China's Guangdong Province.

Freight train X8428, with a total traveling length of 9900 kilometers and bound for Minsk of Belarus, departed from Shenzhen's Yantian Port on Monday, marking the opening of a new Sino-European freight train route starting from Shenzhen.

(Xinhua/Mao Siqian)

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## onebyone



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## Beast

OBOR start the ball rolling....

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## onebyone



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## onebyone

Wade Shepard , 

CONTRIBUTOR

I travel to emerging markets around Asia and report on what I find. 

Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.






Wade Shepard

Europe-bound train pulling out from the Khorgos Gateway dry port on the Kazakhstan / China border.

The markets of Europe and Asia are being drawn more closely together via an array of enhanced land and sea trade routes that are part of a multinational, multi-faceted development that has been vaguely dubbed the New Silk Road. China took a leading role in building this trade network with its 2013 Belt and Road initiative (BRI), which is touted to pump $150 billion per year into mostly emerging markets in dozens of countries throughout Asia, Africa and Europe for the purpose of bolstering connectivity, security, and, by extension, prosperity.

In the spring of 2015, I began traveling the various routes of the New Silk Road to see what was really happening on the ground. Two years and more than 30 countries later, I’ve compiled a list of key takeaways from this endeavor — part two of which is below.

_Read part one here: I Spent Two Years On China's Belt And Road, And This Is What I Found._


The BRI spearheads a new type of foreign policy

Declaring the ‘buddy-buddy’ type of foreign relations which consists of countries forming strategic bonds with select other countries as “outdated geopolitical maneuvering,” China instead pursues diplomatic and economic relations with pretty much any taker — aiming to “forge partnerships of dialogue with no confrontation and of friendship rather than alliance,” as put by Xi Jinping himself.

The hallmark of China’s 21st century foreign policy so far has been its brash disregard for the established geopolitical divisions of the world. Concurrently, China is building political and economic partnerships with Israel and Iran, India and Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Armenia, the U.S. and North Korea, the EU and Russia. China doesn’t flaunt its morals or embargo countries for diverging from its ethical standards.
Politically indiscriminate, China seemingly doesn’t not care if you’re a democracy, a dictatorship, a monarchy, a theocracy, or even a borderline failed state. If you’re willing to step up to the table and do business, China is your friend — well, just so you don’t meddle in what China posits as its “internal affairs.”

With the Belt and Road we’re not looking at a dimetric partitioning of global power that will see China leading a contingent of allies against the United States; we’re not looking at any type of Orwellian, east vs. west showdown. We’re looking at China solidifying ties with every player possible as a way of gaining the leverage necessary to enhance its own autonomy, economic prowess, supply chains and security. As what amounts to the BRI extends around the world, we’re going to see a geopolitical makeup where nearly all countries have one thing in common: a deeply intertwined partnership with China, a common link which Chinese leaders tout as a recipe for peace.

The BRI will pave the way for China’s economic transition

China is in a state of mass transition: The country no longer wishes to merely be the world’s factory, the wellspring of cheap, “Made in China” junk. Rather, the country is opting — meaning, investing billions of dollars and the political will of the central government — to become one of the world’s epicenters for high-tech R&D and high-end, high-value manufacturing.

While many critics have posited that the BRI is just a more streamlined way for China to dump its perceived excess of commodities, such as steel and cheap consumer goods upon the markets of the world, the view from the ground is a little different. While certainly large amounts of building materials and low-quality consumables will pour out from China along the five emerging routes of the BRI, what will be far more significant is the off-shoring of Chinese companies and manufacturing operations. Low-end manufacturing and dirty energy production are becoming less and less viable in China: large swaths of the country are maturing beyond their industrial adolescents, the wage advantage in the east and central regions is dwindling, and the public is no longer uninformed and passive about pollution. China sees the writing on the wall, and the BRI is one of the mechanism that the country is employing to keep the tether tied to its enterprises as they inevitably go off-shore.

Meanwhile, China is going all-in on building up its high-tech sector. The country is moving up the manufacturing value chain, is buying up western technology in droves, has companies designing some of the most high-tech products available today, and legions of factories starting their own brands.

In some ways, China and the west are switching positions. The low-level manufacturing operations that the rise of China was built upon are now being dispersed around the world — even being re-shored to the U.S. and Europe — while the high-tech, high-end manufacturing that was once the forte of the west is being gobbled up by China. So China is now making iPhones, drones and green energy technologies, while the west is going back to making t-shirts.


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## onebyone

The BRI makes Europe relevant again

Every road has a beginning and an end. When looking at the BRI we must not only look at China but also at Europe, the place where all of these enhanced Silk Road trade routes ultimately lead to.

At a time when many European countries are either economically stagnant — or even in periods of contraction — and the U.S. is looking more and more inward, the possibility of new political and economic horizons carries significant potential. The BRI is making Europe relevant again, one trans-Eurasian rail line, financial district and revitalized port at a time. The initiative invariably ties the often slow-moving, bureaucratically hamstrung, and cash-strapped continent in the west with the high-paced, emerging superpower to the east who just happens to have more money to spend than any other country on earth.

While the BRI does increasingly open the gates of Europe to Chinese products and M&A, it also opens the gates of China for European producers. It is a mistake to think of the BRI as a one way street. As China’s middle class continues exploding, disposable income continues rising, and buying power goes through the roof, China has become one of the most targeted markets on the planet. The fact that the BRI opens up enhanced ways for companies to get their products to China is a potential that Europe is finally waking up to.




There are currently 39 rail lines which directly link 15 cities in Europe with upwards of 20 cities in China. The type of goods that these trains are best suited for are precisely what Europe produces and are just what the rising middle class in China is hungry to buy. European pharmaceutical, automotive, luxury, agriculture, and high-end food industries are starting to leverage these new transport routes. BMW, for example, is already shipping cars to China by rail from Duisburg and Land Rover has shown interest in potentially using the newly established London to Yiwu train.

Yes, China doesn’t play fair. Yes, China rigs the system to give domestic enterprises an advantage over foreign companies. Yes, European markets are far more open and transparent than those in China.
But the BRI also offers Europe economic and infrastructural opportunities that otherwise wouldn’t exist — opportunities which, if leveraged properly, could help boost Europe back up on its pedestal.

_*I'm the author of Ghost Cities of China. I'm currently traveling the New Silk Road doing research for a new book. Follow by RSS.*_

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadesh...g-chinas-belt-and-road-part-2/2/#18c94b838991

In some ways, China and the west are switching positions. The low-level manufacturing operations that the rise of China was built upon are now being dispersed around the world — even being re-shored to the U.S. and Europe — while the high-tech, high-end manufacturing that was once the forte of the west is being gobbled up by China. So China is now making iPhones, drones and green energy technologies, while the west is going back to making t-shirts.


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## Jlaw

What I learned by reading this is a westerner baizuo with too much time on hand.

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## Han Patriot

This is guy is quite objective. He refuted the Western media that the ghost cities are empty, he travels and meet the people on the ground, talk to them and understand what they think.


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## Shotgunner51

* China, Arab countries sign satellite navigation declaration*
_Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-05-24 19:59:44_|_Editor: Mengjie_






SHANGHAI, May 24 (Xinhua) -- A declaration on BeiDou cooperation between China and Arab countries was signed Wednesday, helping Arab countries benefit from China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS).

China's self-developed BDS is compatible with other satellite navigation systems and aims to provide services to Belt and Road countries and regions from the end of 2018, completing deployment of 35-satellite constellation around 2020 to provide global services.

_"The declaration will provide policy support for satellite navigation cooperation on both sides," _said Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs Zhang Ming at the first forum on BDS cooperation between China and Arab countries.​
Zhang expressed his hope that with the aid of delegates a _"space silk road"_ could soon be built to help China-Arab cooperation.

Wang Li, chairman of the China Satellite Navigation System Committee, said that based on present cooperation and the needs of Arab countries, both sides agreed to boost major project cooperation and conduct joint research on satellite navigation application in fields, including intelligent transportation, land mapping, precision agriculture and public security.

The forum also featured training sessions on the BDS.

A second forum on BDS cooperation between China and Arab countries will be held in an Arab country in 2019.

Proposed in 2013, the Belt and Road Initiative, comprising the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, aims to build a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along and beyond ancient trade routes.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-05/24/c_136311779.htm


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## JSCh

* China Focus: Chinese banks join global payments innovation to facilitate B&R construction *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-05-24 17:02:13_|_Editor: Mengjie_





BEIJING, May 24 (Xinhua) -- An additional 11 Chinese commercial banks have joined a global payments innovation (gpi) initiative to offer faster, more transparent and traceable cross-border payments for Chinese companies, a press conference announced Tuesday.

The initiative was launched in December 2015 by SWIFT, a global member-owned cooperative that provides financial messaging services. Since then, nearly 110 banks operating across more than 200 countries and regions, including almost all Belt and Road countries, have joined the initiative.

This announcement brings the number on Chinese banks taking part to 13, which together represent an estimated 80 percent of Chinese cross-border payments. The Bank of China (BOC) and Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) had already joined the initiative.

"China Railway Engineering Corporation has many overseas projects under construction, especially in Belt and Road countries. Cross-border payments are made almost daily. But slow processing time and the lack of visibility of the payment status have always been a problem," said Li Guang, an accountant from China Railway Finance Company.

Alain Raes, CEO for APAC and EMEA at SWIFT, said at the press conference, that fast, transparent and traceable payment services will better support the trade and supply chains under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative.

The new payment services will revolutionize the industry by combining real-time payment tracking with the speed and certainty of same-day settlement for international payments, he said.

More than 20 global transaction banks have begun using or implementing the SWIFT gpi service, with another 50 in the pipeline. Hundreds of thousands of payments have already been sent across more than 85 country corridors, according to Raes.

SWIFT gpi will also allow over 400 Chinese institutions to carry out safe and reliable transactions with over 11,000 institutions that are using the SWIFT network globally.

Improved connectivity and more products and services denominated by the Chinese yuan will help China with its RMB internationalizationn agenda, the chief executive said.

"As one of the earliest banks to participate, BOC has played an important role in rule setting, pilot testing and long-term planning. In January, BOC became one of the banks worldwide to go live. Currently, gpi business has been undertaken in 66 domestic and overseas BOC branches and 11 major currencies, with rapid growth of channels and customer coverage," said Wu Jianguang from BOC.

SWIFT gpi allows commercial banks to improve the quality and efficiency of cross-border payments, enrich and optimize the global clearing network, and improve customer service for international payments, said Peng Hua from ICBC.

Strengthening financial connectivity between countries is an important key to the Belt and Road development.

At the Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation held on May 14 to 15, a joint communique was issued vowing to jointly work on a long-term, stable and sustainable financing system; enhance financial infrastructure connectivity, by exploring new models and platforms of investment and financing and improving financial services.

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## cirr

*Jiangxi opens China-Europe freight train*

2017-06-01 17:10:39(Beijing Time) Xinhua 

NANCHANG, June 1 (Xinhua) -- The Ganzhou port in east China's Jiangxi Province opened its first China-Europe freight train on Thursday.

*The cargo trains will carry Russian timber to Ganzhou and then return to Kyrgyzstan loaded with furniture.*

The new route is expected to build Ganzhou into a port for international timber trade, local officials said.

China opened its first trans-continental freight train route in July 2013. Several Chinese cities, including Chongqing, Chengdu, Changsha, Hefei, Yiwu, Suzhou and Harbin, have already launched similar freight train services to Europe.

In 2016, the number of China-Europe freight trains surpassed 1,700, including 1,130 outbound trains and 572 inbound trains, an increase of 109 percent year on year.

Chinese Premier Li holds talks with German Chancellor Merkel in Berlin

China's submersible Jiaolong conducts 5th dive in Mariana Trench

Hong Kong's 20th return anniversary to be celebrated on July 1

Kenya launches flagship standard gauge railway set to transform nation

Cheongsam show held at Sanshuiwan scenic spot in Taizhou City

In pics: Amboseli National Park in Kenya

In pics: outdoor cultural performance given by Ulanmuqi in N China

Water park attracts many citizens in SW China's Chongqing

http://english.sina.com/news/2017-06-01/detail-ifyfuzym7569383.shtml

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## JSCh

*Deutsche Bank eyes US$3B B&R bonanza*
China Daily, June 1, 2017

Deutsche Bank AG, Germany's largest lender, said on Wednesday that it plans to finance US$3 billion worth of projects in partnership with the China Development Bank in the countries and regions taking part in the Belt and Road Initiative.

The CDB and Deutsche Bank agreed to work together over the next five years to support the projects. The move will make Deutsche Bank one of the first global lenders to participate in the initiative.

The two parties also agreed to establish a joint team to cooperate on projects promoting the initiative, including joint lending and project finance that are beneficial to the clients of both lenders.

Garth Ritchie, head of Deutsche Bank's corporate & investment bank, said expanding infrastructure links between China and Europe is a positive opportunity for the peoples and economies of both sides.

The CDB has lent a combined US$160 billion to projects in countries and regions taking part in the Belt & Road Initiative, supporting infrastructure, social welfare and public utility projects, according to the lender.

"We insisted that the projects we finance must be sustainable, and we only operate those in mature conditions. Lending to these projects must be in alignment with the ideas of inclusive lending and supporting green economic growth," said Hu Huaibang, chairman of the CDB.

Xi Junyang, a professor at Shanghai University of Finance and Economics, said that financial institutions play a significant role in supporting projects in Belt and Road economies, and foreign banks which operate in China and have established a global market presence are likely to use their global networks to play a role in this.

"Global lenders which have expertise in cross-market financing, investment and management may see financing projects in countries and regions taking part in the Belt and Road Initiative as a new growth opportunity," said Xi.

German business daily Handelsblatt reported that Deutsche Bank is also seeking approval to issue renminbi-denominated bonds in China's bond market, which are widely known as Panda Bonds and are yuan-denominated bonds issued by qualified foreign capital institutions in the Chinese market.

According to a report by German foreign trade and investment authorities, the number of Chinese investment projects in Germany grew from 190 in 2015 to 281 in 2016, making China the country with most investment projects in Germany for three consecutive years.

Ministry of Commerce spokesman Sun Jiwen said that Chinese investment in Germany totaled 11 billion euros (US$12.03 billion), about 1 percent of all foreign investment, which shows that Chinese investment in Germany is still at an early stage and has great growth potential.

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## cirr

Also opened in the past couple of days are freight train routes from Harbin to Minsk and Changsha to Budapest。

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## cirr

*Xinjiang exports liquid chemical to Europe via freight train*
ECNS App Download
*A freight train loaded with 2,000 tonnes of liquid chemical departed Friday from Korla city in northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region to the German city of Ludwigshafen*.

It is the first time that Xinjiang has exported liquid chemical to Europe via the China-Europe freight train route.

The train carried 82 tank containers of BDO, a liquid chemical mainly used as a solvent in the manufacture of plastics, medicine and cosmetics. It will reach Ludwigshafen in 15 days, after traversing Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland.

The trans-continental freight train route has become increasingly popular since it was launched in July 2013.

http://www.ecns.cn/business/2017/05-27/259345.shtml

*Wuhan exports cultural products to Europe via freight train*

Xinhua, May 27, 2017

*A freight train loaded with cultural items, including paintings and calligraphy brushes, is heading to the German city of Gottingen after leaving Wuhan in central China's Hubei Province.*

It was the first time that such items have been exported from Wuhan to Europe via the China-Europe freight train route.

The train carried two containers loaded with over 2,000 items such as incense burners and wooden furniture. It will reach Gottingen in 15 days after crossing Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus.

Previously, such products were exported via air or sea freight, with higher costs and longer travel time respectively.

Since it was launched in July 2013, the trans-continental freight train routes have been extended due to increased demand. China now has express freight services to 28 European cities.

http://china.org.cn/arts/2017-05/27/content_40907814.htm

@AndrewJin

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## MultaniGuy

CPEC is indeed a game changer.

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## JSCh

*New Silk Road Oil & Gas Company launches gas production project in Bukhara region*
01 June 2017 12:01
*
Tashkent, Uzbekistan (UzDaily.com) --* On 31 May, New Silk Road Oil & Gas Company, an Uzbek-Chinese joint venture, started a project on development of Khojasayat gas condensate field in Bukhara region of Uzbekistan.

In accordance with the feasibility study of the project, it is planned to drill 16 production wells on the licensed area.

Once the project reaches its designed capacity, the venture will produce 1 billion cubic meters of natural gas and 6,500 tonnes of gas condensate a year.

New Silk Road Oil & Gas Company is a joint venture of Uzbekneftegaz of Uzbekistan and CNODC of China.

In September 2013, Uzbekneftegaz and CNODC established the company on a parity basis for additional exploration and development of the Karakul investment block.

The raw material base of the JV will be fields discovered during geological exploration, carried out by the CNODC in the oil and gas areas of Uzbekistan.

The production of gas at the Karakul investment block in Bukhara region is scheduled to begin in the second half of 2017.

The cost of the project is US$377.5 million. The project will be financed due to resources of the joint venture funds, as well as Chinese loans under the guarantee of CNPC.

China’s China Petroleum Engineering & Construction Corporation (CPECC), XIBU Drilling Engineering Company Ltd and China National Logging Corporation are determined as the contractors of the project in the result of organized tenders.


UzDaily.com: New Silk Road Oil & Gas Company launches gas production project in Bukhara region

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Arryn said:


> I remember watching a video on YouTube where the narrator showed pictures of Mao meeting members of the cabal you were talking about (can't remember their exact names but they were revealed to be Zionists) as the premise of this video is to prove that revolutions are one method of said cabal to fulfil their aims.
> 
> I'll be damned if this is all true, though.




My friend,

You and my good friend @Götterdämmerung were having a good discussion..and I wasn't even invited to the party. Me sad!

Anyhow, to dissect the global empire is easy and most difficult at the same time. Let us for now call it an entity loyal only to its own goals... the slow death of Western Civilisation might and might not be its agenda. Appears to be...

Let us wait for our friend @Götterdämmerung to return then we can have a go at it. 

My sense is that issuance of money is political act. Any country who has sovereignity on issuance of money is free of sorts.. Let us see which ones?

We must treat the entity with respect though... you both understand what is meant here!

Take care,

SPF

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## LowPost

Sinopakfriend said:


> My friend,
> 
> You and my good friend @Götterdämmerung were having a good discussion..and I wasn't even invited to the party. Me sad!
> 
> Anyhow, to dissect the global empire is easy and most difficult at the same time. Let us for now call it an entity loyal only to its own goals... the slow death of Western Civilisation might and might not be its agenda. Appears to be...
> 
> Let us wait for our friend @Götterdämmerung to return then we can have a go at it.
> 
> My sense is that issuance of money is political act. Any country who has sovereignity on issuance of money is free of sorts.. Let us see which ones?
> 
> We must treat the entity with respect though... you both understand what is meant here!
> 
> Take care,
> 
> SPF



I wasn't aware you are actually familiar with the topics discussed, so apologies for that. But better late than never, right?

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## China and Pakistan

Rumour is a lying jade


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## NoOne'sBoy

Chinese have to start getting combat experience from somewhere otherwise their huge military would be useless if it can't be used to protect Chinese interests overseas.


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## Götterdämmerung

Sinopakfriend said:


> My friend,
> 
> You and my good friend @Götterdämmerung were having a good discussion..and I wasn't even invited to the party. Me sad!
> 
> Anyhow, to dissect the global empire is easy and most difficult at the same time. Let us for now call it an entity loyal only to its own goals... the slow death of Western Civilisation might and might not be its agenda. Appears to be...
> 
> Let us wait for our friend @Götterdämmerung to return then we can have a go at it.
> 
> My sense is that issuance of money is political act. Any country who has sovereignity on issuance of money is free of sorts.. Let us see which ones?
> 
> We must treat the entity with respect though... you both understand what is meant here!
> 
> Take care,
> 
> SPF


The transatlanticists have infiltrated this forum. Well, since my life does not depend on handouts of the deep state, I will of course not shit up to call a spade a spade.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Götterdämmerung said:


> The transatlanticists have infiltrated this forum. Well, since my life does not depend on handouts of the deep state, I will of course not shit up to call a spade a spade.





Ah, my friend,

Understood. Happy to see you back! @Arryn ready when you are.

My question stands: What is a Human?

Without agreeing on a shared description... all discussion becomes accedemic... such a defintion helps to form a context and guage with which to measure our existential scorecard. 

From democracy to real freedom to availability of knowledge or lack thereof... 

I know both of you are Thinking persons so let us try some Original Thinking. 

Looking forward to your views,


SPF

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## Banglar Bir

*Malaysia an ‘Important Node’ in OBOR*
Geo politically, Malaysia is trying to seek a balance between the two big powers the United States and China. Malaysia is getting involved in OBOR parallel enjoying the status as a member of TPP, a US-led trade agreement.
Saadat Hassan Bilal -

*Malaysia’s geographical location, status as an influential middle power and its substantial coordination and implementation structures multiplies its importance to the node of Chinese, One Belt One Road. Geographically positioned between Thailand and Singapore, Malaysia is a useful connector in China’s broader infrastructure plans which include a high-speed railway Beijing envisions would eventually run from Kunming, China down to Laos and Thailand and onwards to Malaysia and Singapore.*

*For two reasons Malaysia is significant to OBOR, firstly, it is sitting on a strategic spot, in that Kuala Lumpur is quite close to the Malacca Strait, the second busiest waterway in the world. Trade statistics show that almost half of the world’s total annual seaborne cargo passed through this passage, which is jointly administered by Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. Secondly, Malaysia is now China’s largest trading partner in ASEAN and the third largest in Asia and its policy option can be used as reference for some other countries.

The Melaka Gateway is one such project, and provides a case study for a closer examination of the potential for OBOR investments in Malaysia to further Beijing’s strategic objectives. The strategic value of OBOR investments in Malaysia will not only increase China’s economic clout, but would also provide a solid logistical foundation to enable Beijing’s military aspirations. China has strong motivations to leverage its OBOR investments in Malaysia for strategic purposes, consistent with the plan’s revitalized focus. China’s 2015 defence white paper outlined a combination of ‘near seas defense’ and ‘distant seas protection’.

As Malaysia becoming gradually the major ASEAN partner in OBOR initiative being the beneficiary of more than US$200 billion worth of Chinese infrastructure and real estate investment. Malaysia’s need to upgrade its infrastructure to attract larger foreign investors and boost its slowing economy merges with China’s OBOR ambitions. But some of those investments have provoked suspicion about their potential to enable a Chinese military presence.

In addition, Malaysia can help China expand markets in other ASEAN and neighboring countries. All these factors together make Malaysia’s position key to the prospects of Belt Road. Several key areas and projects have been highlighted by both Malaysia and China under the umbrella of OBOR, including infrastructure, transportation, energy, property and even education and some progress have been made on each to date. For example, 60% of the equity of the 1MDB-owned Bandar Malaysia project in Kuala Lumpur was sold to a consortium led by a Malaysian company and China Railway Engineering Corp (CREC, a stated owned Chinese company) at RM7.41 billion in early 2016.

Since 2009, China supposed to been Malaysia’s largest trading partner. In 2015, China invested US$2 billion in Malaysia and total bilateral trade was US$100 billion. Given the strategic partnership initiative between both countries, Malaysia continues to be highly attractive outbound investment destination in China. China foreign investments in Malaysia will essentially translate to improved infrastructure and logistics and high-value job creation which ultimately facilitates Malaysia to become a high-income country by 2020.

With trade volume registering US$102 billion in 2014 , Malaysia has already been China’s largest ASEAN trading partner since 2008 and its third biggest Asian trading partner after Japan and South Korea. It is expected that the bilateral trade, which is growing at 8% yearly, will continue to expand. This strong bonding is going to be strengthened in the face of the Chinese president Xi Jin-ping’s efforts to enhance regional connectivity. At the highest level, Prime Minister Najib Razak has agreed to support China in principle in MSR at the Boao Forum for Asia 2015 . Transport Minister Liow T iong Lai also indicated that Malaysia had looked into how it should prepare itself and the emphasis is on ports, railways and the aviation sector, seaports in particular.

As for now OBOR and MIC (made in china) 2025 strategies, Malaysia has a higher potential to attract Chinese Multinational companies (“MNCs”) to grow their business in Greater Kuala Lumpur (“GKL”). GKL’s optimal location in Asia enables them to leverage GKL as a gateway into the ASEAN region on the back of 633 million populations, with growing household income and increasing high standard of living. 

The alignment will enable Malaysia to benefit from the sharing of advanced technology, knowledge and experience, increased exposure to a global perspective, cultivate innovation and the creation of high-value job opportunities.
Malaysia US$6.8 billion deal with three Chinese state-owned companies to construct and manage a deep-sea port and Maritime Industrial Park on three reclaimed islands off Malacca city, as part of the larger US$9.7 billion Melaka Gateway mega-development. The facilities will include a container and bulk terminal, shipbuilding and repair services, and marine engineering and manufacturing services. On the other hand China General Nuclear Power Corp. (SOE) acquired Malaysia’s second largest power producer, Edra Global Energy Bhd, in a USD 2.3 Billion deal from Malaysia’s 1Malaysia Development Berhad (1MDB), a state fund.

The deal gives China major foothold in the Malaysian energy sector. China Railway Construction Corp. joined forces with Malaysian Iskandar Waterfront Holdings to acquire a 60% stake in a major 1MDB property project ‘Bandar Malaysia’. The parties formed a 40-60 joint venture, through which they have access to one of the largest sustainable urban development projects being conducted in Malaysia. These acquisitions happened after 1MDB defaulted on its bond payments. 1MDB is a development company owned entirely by the Malaysian government. China also ranks as the top foreign backer of Malaysian real estate projects, with total investments topping 2.1 billion US dollars.

Recent projects include upgrading and building new ports, creating industrial parks and iconic urban developments, power generation, train construction, building new rail lines, investments in manufacturing plants, logistics, and information and communication technology. “This idea of upgrading ports and building new ports is actually a dream come true. The government policy for the last 10 to 15 years has been to make Malaysia a hub because of the location. I think now with the Chinese idea of trying to help and upgrade the infrastructure it will become a reality,” said Abdul Majid Ahmad Khan, former Malaysian Ambassador to China.

Currently, there is cooperation between Malaysia and China on ports through a port alliance arrangement estimated to involve 11 Chinese and six Malaysian ports. China is keen to invest in Malaysia’s infrastructure projects for several reasons. Malaysia is viewed as politically stable, has favourable economic growth prospects, is highly ranked in trade competitiveness and has both traditional as well as new emerging areas for development in which to invest. Although BRI envisions major economic benefits, some fundamental challenges remain, such as geopolitical mistrust and economic constraints on China’s side. Examining China’s other major investments in Malaysia brings the strategic picture into sharper focus.

At Kuantan on Malaysia’s east coast, China jointly owns an industrial park and a 40% stake in the construction of a deep-sea port. Sand’s being rapidly dredged there to facilitate the US$12.4 billion East-Coast Rail Link, 85% of which is financed by China. The line will run from Port Klang on the west coast to Kuantan Port in the east, ending at Tumpat, near Malaysia’s northwest border with Thailand. Once complete, the railway will be a land bridge between Klang and Kuantan, enabling China-bound goods to bypass Singapore and the southern Malacca Strait. That’ll divert significant volumes of traffic away from Singapore and enhance China’s ability to control the flow of goods.

In 2016, during his visit to China Malaysian Prime Minister, Najib Razzak witnessed signing of fourteen agreements on several iconic and mega agreements between Malaysia and China worth RM144 billion. High Speed Rail (HSR) connecting Malaysia and Singapore is important but final results of final bidding will not be available until 2018. However, it is a general consensus that a Chinese-led consortium is one of the two most promising competitors (the other is Japanese-led consortium) because of its successful precedent as set in Indonesia.
Geopolitically, Malaysia is trying to seek a balance between the two big powers of the United States and China. If its getting involved in OBOR, Malaysia is also a member of TPP, a US-led trade agreement. Since OBOR and TPP are widely considered to be part of a rivalry between China and the US, the involvement of both projects clearly shows that Malaysia hopes to benefit from both but not to overly rely on any.

In a sense, the choice of “OBOR or TPP” reflects the choice of “US or China”, which is a common issue facing almost all the ASEAN countries, which is largely due to the geographic location of these countries. Although ASEAN countries try to speak with one voice, each of them have different responses to the “US or China” issue — some are more pro-American and others seem more pro-China. Of course, such is subject to change depending on their leadership and certain circumstances and the dispute over the South China Sea plays a key role in the policy option.

Last but not least, skepticism and concerns about OBOR can also be found in Malaysia. In addition to the dispute concerning the South China Sea, the “indifference” of Malay ethnic people as opposed to the “enthusiasm” of Chinese ethnic people and the exaggeration of the potential effect of OBOR are also challenges. However, it seems that the Malay-Chinese cooperation on OBOR hasn’t been influenced much by such opinions.

http://regionalrapport.com/2017/06/01/malaysia-important-node-obor/*


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## JSCh

* Greek, Chinese ports sign MOU to boost commercial ties *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-06-13 10:41:57_|_Editor: ying_





ATHENS, June 12 (Xinhua) -- The Piraeus Port Authority (PPA), together with Chinese giant COSCO Shipping, the majority shareholder of PPA, and the world's largest commercial port of Shanghai signed two Memorandums of Understanding on Monday in the Greek capital of Athens to boost commercial ties.

The Shanghai International Port Group, which manages 25.7 percent of China's international trading volume, signed the memorandums with COSCO Shipping and PPA in the presence of Han Zheng, a member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) and secretary of the CPC Shanghai Municipal Committee.

Under the deal, which is within the framework of the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative, Piraeus will strengthen its strategic position on the world trade map by increasing the incoming cargo from China to Europe.

The two sides also agreed to strengthen cooperation in staff training, technical assistance, information exchange, as well as develop synergies to create new business opportunities.

"The current agreement with the port of Shanghai is very important. It means that through Piraeus huge quantities of goods will be transported from China to the rest of the world," Greek Deputy Economy and Development Minister Stergios Pitsiorlas told Xinhua on the sidelines of the event.

The document highlights the great perspective of growth not only for Piraeus, but for Greece as well, and Greece plays a key role for the Belt and Road Initiative and Piraeus is the first step for this cooperation, Pitsiorlas said.

"The agreement will strengthen the national economy and employment. We need investments in this period. Such investments show that the foreigners trust our country," said Christos Lampridis, secretary general of Ports, Port Policy and Maritime Investments of the Ministry of Shipping.

Since 2010, Cosco Shipping's subsidiary Piraeus Container Terminal has been operating Piers II and III at Piraeus port under a 35-year concession agreement.

In 2016, COSCO Shipping acquired 67 percent of the shares of PPA, turning the port into an important transport hub at the crossroads of Asia, Europe and Africa.


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## onebyone

High-powered current and former government, business and academic leaders from China and Silk Road nations will be gather in Hangzhou for two days starting tomorrow to discuss business opportunities in those fast-growing regions.

The event will be organized by the Silk Road International Association, or SRIA, an affiliate of the Beijing-headquartered International Finance Forum, or IFF. SRIA, created in 2016, aims to serve as a platform for dialog and cooperation for business along the historic Silk Road; the IFF is focused on high-level dialog and research in the financial field. China has pledged $124 billion, including loans, to support projects along its former Silk Road trading route in the coming years.

Top Chinese companies with senior leaders present in Hangzhou for SRIA’s first summit include the China Railway Group, China Construction Bank and Everbright Securities. Government speakers from China will include Yuan Jiajun, governor of Zhejiang Province. Former Korean Prime Minister Han Seung-soo will speak, as well as Prince Turki bin Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud, CEO of the King Abdullah Foundation, and Jenny Shipley, the former New Zealand prime minister.

Economists on hand include Cheng Xingdong, chief China economist of BNP Paribas (Asia) and Wang Yan, former senior economist at the World Bank. Click here for more information about SRIA.


--Follow me on Twitter @rflannerychina

https://www.forbes.com/sites/russel...road-summit-to-open-in-hangzhou/#7db4997d7ae3


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## onebyone

Michael Clauss is the German ambassador to China in the SCMP suggest two ways to deal with China’s Silk Road ambitions.

1. partner with China to close development gaps, while reinforcing the open, transparent and non-hierarchical world order, as seems to be working with the AIIB.
2. Europe could offer its own concept to act as another friendly pole with the power to attract. Local content – that is, maximum participation by local labour, local companies and local products – could be the signature of connectivity, European-style. Open tenders where the best offer wins, hopefully through a bid from the country where the project is built, would be another. Labour safety, environmental standards and fair and sustainable financing would be a third.

Japan’s Prime Minister has indicated that Japan will cooperate with the One Belt One Road if it is open and transparent.

The United States could be considering joining the China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

This could result in a economic and geopolitically positive result.

A trillion dollar per year shortfall in infrastructure investment could be fixed. Fixing the infrastructure shortfall should boost global GDP growth.
There would be more growth in developed and developing countries and the world.







https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/...-power-sharing-with-usa-europe-and-japan.html

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## JSCh

* China to extend highway cargo link to southeast Asia *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-06-25 14:51:42_|_Editor: An_





CHONGQING, June 25 (Xinhua) -- A regular road cargo service between southwest China's Chongqing Municipality and Bangkok will start operations in July, local authorities said.

Chongqing has planned three routes to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), according to the Chongqing municipal transportation authorities.

The eastern route from Chongqing to Hanoi in Vietnam is already in operation.

In July, the middle route will connect Chongqing, through Vientiane in Laos and on to Bangkok. The 96-hour journey covers 2,800 kilometers.

The third, the western route which goes from Chongqing to Yangon of Myanmar, will start open at the end of this year or the beginning of next, said He Zonghai, director of Chongqing transportation group.

He said the cargo service will bring more fruit, grain, timber and other agricultural products from southeast Asia to Chongqing.

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## TaiShang

*China to extend highway cargo link to southeast Asia*
Xinhua, June 25, 2017

A regular road cargo service between southwest China's Chongqing Municipality and Bangkok will start operations in July, local authorities said.

Chongqing has planned three routes to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), according to the Chongqing municipal transportation authorities.

*The eastern route from Chongqing to Hanoi in Vietnam is already in operation.*

In July, *the middle route will connect Chongqing, through Vientiane in Laos and on to Bangkok.* The 96-hour journey covers 2,800 kilometers.

*The third, the western route which goes from Chongqing to Yangon of Myanmar, will start open at the end of this year or the beginning of next*, said He Zonghai, director of Chongqing transportation group.

He said the cargo service will bring more fruit, grain, timber and other agricultural products from southeast Asia to Chongqing.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2017-06/25/content_41093629.htm

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## onebyone

*Under Beijing's proposed Northern Corridor railway project, Latvia might be another player in China's long-term rail-sea development vision*
By DOUG TSURUOKA JULY 2, 2017 1:23 PM (UTC+8)

It was a meeting that could easily pass unnoticed. Chinese Premier Li Keqiang met with Finnish Prime Minister Juha Sipila on June 27 in Dalian, China, during the annual World Economic Forum meeting known as Summer Davos.

The upshot of their tete-a-tete was that China and Finland pledged to enhance bilateral cooperation in Arctic affairs and areas such as manufacturing and urbanization. Most important, Li told Sipila that China wanted to bolster communication with Finland in international and regional matters, specifically in the context of China-EU and China-Nordic cooperation.

The growing collaboration between the world’s second-largest economy and a small Nordic nation of 5.5 million people highlights a little-known fact: China’s One Belt, One Road (Obor) project has an Arctic angle. and Finland could play a pivotal role.

On the Finnish side, one of the most interesting proposals is for a €3 billion (US$3.4 billion) “Arctic Corridor” railway that would connect Northern Europe with China and Arctic Ocean deep-water ports. The idea is being pitched by a group of Finnish academics and business leaders. It would connect the city of Rovaniemi in northern Finland with the Norwegian port of Kirkenes on the Barents Sea. 





Finland’s Arctic Corridor project. Illustration: Arctic Corridor
Ships could move goods from China as well as oil and gas from Arctic fields in Russia westward along the Northern Sea Route to Kirkenes. Cargos would be offloaded to the railway and sent southward through rail connections to Scandinavia, Helsinki, the Baltic states and the rest of Europe.

“The Arctic Corridor project sees Obor as very important as it provides an alternative to connect Asia with the Arctic and Europe,” Timo Lohi, a spokesman for the Arctic Corridor project, told Asia Times.

Lohi notes that Kirkenes in Norway is the closest Western port to Asia. The port is also ice-free, allowing the use of larger vessels and saving on icebreaking costs.

The Northern Sea Route, which runs along the Russian Arctic coast from the Kara Sea, along Siberia, to the Bering Strait, is assuming growing importance under Obor. Melting Arctic ice, in one example, makes it possible to ship gas by tanker from Russia’s huge $27 billion Yamal LNG (liquefied natural gas) project in Siberia, in which Chinese companies and development banks have hefty stakes.

Using the Northern Sea Route also lops an estimated 20-25% off the distance between Asia and Europe that use the Indian Ocean and the Suez Canal routes.

*China’s rail freight angle*
The Arctic Corridor railway could also be joined at the Finnish border to Russia’s rail network, which in turn connects with China’s. According to Lohi, this would enable Chinese freight to be transported to Europe by train. Such interconnected rail networks already allow goods to be delivered between the United Kingdom and China.

The Arctic Corridor project is at an early stage. Preliminary planning has started in Finland, and regional land use and other impact studies are under way. The plan will be discussed at Finland’s Kouvola Rail Forum in September. The planning process could take 10 years. Financing for the project is yet to be nailed down. But if cargo flows are sufficient, Lohi believes construction could begin by the early 2030s.

China is said to be aware of the project, though no official contact has been made. The Norwegian and Finnish transport ministries are also discussing how to cooperate on the effort.

Chinese financing for the Arctic Corridor is critical. European Union member Finland was battered by the 2008 financial crisis. Its economic growth still lags behind the rest of the euro zone, and various EU-related issues make it hard to secure other outside aid.

While Chinese interest in the project is uncertain, firms from China are already making hefty investments in Finland. China’s Sunshine Kaidi New Energy Group invested $1.13 billion in a new wood-based biodiesel plant in the northern city of Kemi. More Chinese investments are on the way.

In another gesture, Chinese President Xi Jinping paid his first state visit to Finland in April. Chinese media at the time noted that Finland in 1950 was one of the first Western nations to recognize China’s new Communist government. 

What is more, Finland recently assumed the rotating chairmanship of the Arctic Council, an international body that Arctic littoral states including Russia and the US use to govern the Arctic. It will serve in that position until 2019, giving it leverage in Arctic matters of interest to China.

*Latvia also a player*
Finland isn’t the only prospective site for an Obor railhead. Another candidate is Latvia. Bordering Russia, it has well-developed cargo-shipping and rail-freight infrastructure dating to the Soviet era.

This was a factor when China opened an 11,000-kilometer direct freight route between Yiwu city in Zhejiang province and Riga, Latvia, last November.

Some observers say geography, logistics and expertise make Finland and Latvia the only logical choices for northern railheads that could serve Obor’s needs. In addition to airports and rails, Finland offers its capital port of Helsinki, while Latvia boasts the industrialized port city of Riga. Both nations, moreover, are EU members.

“Although there is currently no clear leader for establishing improved freight routes that connect China with Northern Europe, Finland and Latvia are emerging as the two favorites due to a combination of geographic, economic and logistical considerations,” said an April 6 article in The Baltic Times.

Moving cargo by sea to Kirkenes from Russia and China is more attractive than hauling it overland by rail.

“The notion of shipping goods by land from Asia to Europe is not very practical and [is] expensive,” said David Dollar, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, DC. “Last year there were 20,000 containers from China that went by rail to Europe. You can put 20,000 containers on one ship. So I think shipping will continue to be the overwhelmingly economical way to ship goods.”

*Challenges*
On the downside, analysts say both Finland and Latvia need substantial infrastructure investments to participate effectively in Obor, highlighting the need for Chinese cash.

Adam Lajeunesse, an expert on Arctic security, sees other challenges. He cautions that the demand for northern infrastructure projects like the Arctic Corridor is still theoretical and faces serious hurdles. 

For one thing, he notes that large-scale development of offshore oil reserves in Russia’s Arctic is not economic given current oil prices. He adds that oil’s dilemma will be made worse if Western countries make a serious transition to electric vehicles in the next 20 years.

“I think there’s a real possibility that none of the Russian Arctic offshore oil is ever developed,” said Lajeunesse, who holds the Irving Chair in Arctic Security at Canada’s St Francis Xavier University.

Tensions between the West and Russia also remain high. Lajeunesse says this could complicate collaboration on multinational infrastructure projects like the Arctic Corridor. He points out that Baltic and Scandinavian nations are especially wary of Russia in the wake of alleged Russian cyber-attacks and fighter probes of their airspace.

While China is interested in using the Northern Sea Route, Lajeunesse points out that the passage’s viability is sometimes overstated. “While the Chinese are interested in using it, it really is interest rather than enthusiasm,” he said. “Ice conditions are still difficult, and Russian fees and regulations have been cited by Chinese companies as a major hurdle to large-scale adoption.”

_Doug Tsuruoka is Editor-at-Large of Asia Times_
http://www.atimes.com/article/finland-serve-chinas-arctic-gateway-obor/

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## Raphael

All Arctic countries shall serve China as gateways. Every single one.

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## JSCh

*China to pour trillions into Belt and Road projects*
By Jiang Jie (People's Daily Online) 17:18, July 13, 2017






File photo
​China’s well-funded Belt and Road Initiative has rolled out with thousands of Chinese enterprises going all out in the vast, new market created by participating countries and beyond. The vast overseas market will become a giant pool of capital, with trillions of dollars of overseas investment and financing in the coming years, experts projected.

Chinese investments overseas have been growing at a double-digit rate over the past 10 years. By 2016, some 30,000 Chinese companies have marched overseas, with a total investment of $1.2 trillion, including outward foreign direct investment at $183.2 billion. In five years, that figure is expected to rise to $750 billion, revealed Zhou Xiaofei, a director at National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC).

Zhou made the remarks at the “Chinese Firms Going Abroad 50 Forum,” organized by the Counselors’ Office of the State Council. The forum was contracted to the Center for China and Globalization (CCG).

Zhou also pointed out that private companies make up some 60 percent of the Chinese companies in the foreign market, though many are inexperienced newcomers compared to their overseas counterparts.

“The NDRC has streamlined the application process to facilitate Chinese companies’ overseas investment. Most investments only require a record on file, with no lengthy verification procedure,” Zhou said. “The NDRC will continue to encourage Chinese companies to go overseas and negotiate and cooperate with participating countries along the B&R to bring down the cost of cooperation. Efforts will also be made to improve overseas security and to lower operational risks.”

Zhang Xingfu, a deputy head of a department responsible for outward investment and economic cooperation under the Ministry of Commerce, told the forum that more than 70 percent of the Chinese companies overseas are profiting. By 2016, a total of 77 projects have taken shape in 36 countries and regions with total investment of $24.19 billion. These Chinese-led projects will add more than $70 billion in value and create over 212,000 jobs.

“China will continue to outshine others at a time when the developed countries are expected to remain mired in economic stagnation,” said Justin Yifu Lin, former World Bank chief economist, at the forum, adding that China’s economy will remain robust and serve as the world’s economic engine.

Behind the growing prosperity are a number of Chinese financial institutions that have been providing constant support to the companies.

According to Sun Ping, vice president of the Export-Import Bank of China, the bank has supported a total of 1,279 B&R projects, with the loan balance exceeding 671.4 billion RMB, up 18.28 percent.

Meanwhile, the total investment of projects supported by the Silk Road Fund has topped $80 billion, said the fund’s executive vice president Ding Guorong. “We should be aware that the financing demand in B&R construction is huge. The demand cannot be met by the fund or any single Chinese financial institution,” Ding noted, adding that the Silk Road Fund has established cooperative ties with a dozen international financial institutions on possible bilateral or multilateral cooperation opportunities.

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## JSCh

* China becomes largest investor in Arab region *
By Dong Feng Source:Global Times Published: 2017/7/23 22:03:39

* Exports labor, tech to key Belt and Road area *

China reportedly become the largest investor in the Arab region in 2016, with investment worth 199.63 billion yuan ($29.5 billion), representing 31.9 percent of market share, surpassing the US and the United Arab Emirates (UAE).

In 2016, Arab countries attracted $30.8 billion in foreign direct investment (FDI) in total, the Xinhua News Agency reported on July 19, citing a report by the Arab Investment and Export Credit Guarantee Corp.

China was followed by the UAE at 102.86 billion yuan or 16.4 percent, and the US at 47.37 billion yuan.

"The growth was driven by the Belt and Road (B&R) initiative, considering the region is a crucial junction along the B&R route," Chen Fengying, a research fellow at the China Institute of Contemporary International Relations, told Global Times on Sunday.

The Middle East region is eyeing economic transformation through industrial cooperation, an area in which China can make its own contribution, Chen said. For example, China and Egypt are preparing to establish a Special Economic Zone Development in Egypt to drive the development of the Arab country's trade and economy, she said.

"In terms of economic structure, China and Arab countries are highly complementary, which provides great potential for trade," Wang Jun, an expert at the China Center for International Economic Exchanges, told the Global Times on Sunday, noting that China excels in industry and light industry and the Middle East region has abundant oil and gas.

Under the framework of the Belt and Road initiative, China will export labor and technologies to Arab countries and will also strengthen educational and people-to-people exchanges, Wang said.

Currently, Chinese companies like Huawei and ZTE have already set up branches in the region, which are expected to increase investment in the future, Wang explained.

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## JSCh

* China signs cooperation agreements with 69 entities under Belt and Road *
_ Source: Xinhua_|_ 2017-08-17 21:14:18_|_Editor: Mengjie_





BEIJING, Aug. 17 (Xinhua) -- The number of countries, regions, and international organizations that have signed cooperation agreements with China on the joint development of the Belt and Road Initiative has reached 69, the country's top economic planner said Thursday.

The agreements consist of cooperation deals in various fields, including infrastructure construction, financial collaboration, and cultural exchanges, said a spokesperson with the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC).

Some key infrastructure projects, including the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed railway, have seen fast development with the active participation of Chinese companies, said the spokesperson.

More than 4,000 cargo train trips have been made between China and Europe, with the trains passing through 31 cities in 12 European countries.

In terms of finance, China has signed currency swap agreements with 22 countries and regions along the Belt and Road, with total size reaching about one trillion yuan (about 150 billion U.S. dollars).

In addition, China has signed educational cooperation agreements with more than 60 countries and partnered with the World Health Organization in promoting health projects based on the initiative.

The Belt and Road Initiative, proposed by China in 2013, aims to build trade and infrastructure networks connecting Asia with Europe and Africa along the ancient Silk Road trade routes to seek common development and prosperity.

The NDRC will continue to push the construction of key projects under the initiative while helping companies implement risk-control mechanisms, preventing irrational overseas investments, said the spokesperson.

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## JSCh

*Afghan children to get free treatment*
By CUI JIA | China Daily | Updated: 2017-08-31 09:00














Twenty-one children from Afghanistan with congenital heart disease arrived in Urumqi, Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, on Wednesday to receive free surgical treatment.

The children, all under age 14, are the first to benefit from a humanitarian program for Afghan children with severe problems under the Belt and Road Initiative.

The Red Cross Society of China will take groups of children who have been screened for surgery to receive free treatment.

Screenings were carried out by the Chinese Red Cross foreign aid medical team in Kabul, Afghanistan, in late August, according to team leader Sun Shuopeng.

In its first phase, the program is expected to provide free medical treatment for around 100 Afghan children, Sun said.

The Afghan Red Crescent Society estimates that nearly 7,000 Afghan children with congenital heart disease are in urgent need of treatment.

The program is funded by the Belt and Road Fraternity Fund, which was launched by the Red Cross Society of China in May. The fund aims to boost humanitarian activities and cooperation in countries involved in the Belt and Road Initiative.

Proposed by President Xi Jinping in 2013, the initiative is an umbrella term for the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.

Humanitarian threats such as military conflicts, natural disasters and uneven socioeconomic development are common in Belt and Road regions, so local demand for humanitarian aid is immense, said Wang Ping, vice-president of the society.

With financial support from the fund, the society established an emergency care center in Pakistan's Gwadar Port in May, alongside its local counterpart, the Pakistan Red Crescent Society.


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## Galactic Penguin SST

* Cargo train services launched between Yinchuan, Tehran *

2017-09-05 19:50:16

YINCHUAN, Sept. 5 (Xinhua) -- The first cargo train linking Yinchuan, capital of northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region and Tehran, capital of Iran, began operation Tuesday.

The train left Yinchuan loaded with more than 560 tonnes of machinery, daily commodities, ceramics and glassware and is scheduled to reach Tehran in about 15 days travelling via Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

"The train takes more than 20 days less than transporting by ship, and is expected to greatly lower our delivery costs," said Liang Hua, whose company is in charge of the operation.

According to Kong Guohua, an official from Ningxia's Department of Commerce, the new cargo route will help increase trade between China and countries in central and west Asia.







Spoiler



http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/05/136586226_15046125503781n.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/05/c_136586226.htm



▲ A Chinese freight train bound for Iran's Tehran departs from the Yinchuan South Railway Station in Yinchuan, capital of northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, Sept. 5, 2017. The launch ceremony of the international freight train from Yinchuan to Tehran was held here on Tuesday. 







Spoiler



http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/05/136586226_15046125503931n.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/05/c_136586226_2.htm



▲ A Chinese freight train bound for Iran's Tehran departs from the Yinchuan South Railway Station in Yinchuan, capital of northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, Sept. 5, 2017. The launch ceremony of the international freight train from Yinchuan to Tehran was held here on Tuesday. 

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-09/05/c_136586226.htm


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## Kamikaze Pilot

JSCh said:


> *Afghan children to get free treatment*
> By CUI JIA | China Daily | Updated: 2017-08-31 09:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twenty-one children from Afghanistan with congenital heart disease arrived in Urumqi, Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, on Wednesday to receive free surgical treatment.
> 
> The children, all under age 14, are the first to benefit from a humanitarian program for Afghan children with severe problems under the Belt and Road Initiative.
> 
> The Red Cross Society of China will take groups of children who have been screened for surgery to receive free treatment.
> 
> Screenings were carried out by the Chinese Red Cross foreign aid medical team in Kabul, Afghanistan, in late August, according to team leader Sun Shuopeng.
> 
> In its first phase, the program is expected to provide free medical treatment for around 100 Afghan children, Sun said.
> 
> The Afghan Red Crescent Society estimates that nearly 7,000 Afghan children with congenital heart disease are in urgent need of treatment.
> 
> The program is funded by the Belt and Road Fraternity Fund, which was launched by the Red Cross Society of China in May. The fund aims to boost humanitarian activities and cooperation in countries involved in the Belt and Road Initiative.
> 
> Proposed by President Xi Jinping in 2013, the initiative is an umbrella term for the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road.
> 
> Humanitarian threats such as military conflicts, natural disasters and uneven socioeconomic development are common in Belt and Road regions, so local demand for humanitarian aid is immense, said Wang Ping, vice-president of the society.
> 
> With financial support from the fund, the society established an emergency care center in Pakistan's Gwadar Port in May, alongside its local counterpart, the Pakistan Red Crescent Society.


*May God Save Those Afghan Children!!!!*


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## JSCh

JSCh said:


> *Afghan children to get free treatment*
> By CUI JIA | China Daily | Updated: 2017-08-31 09:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twenty-one children from Afghanistan with congenital heart disease arrived in Urumqi, Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, on Wednesday to receive free surgical treatment.


Thursday, September 07, 2017, 17:33
*Red Cross offers Afghan children a lifeline*
Thursday, September 07, 2017, 17:33 By Mao Weihua and Cui Jia
_*
Youngsters with heart conditions flown to Xinjiang for crucial treatment. Mao Weihua in Urumqi and Cui Jia in Beijing report.*_



A child with congenital heart disease from Afghanistan is prepared for an operation at the First Affiliated Hospital of Xinjiang Medical University in northwestern China on Saturday. The program is part of the Red Cross Society of China's humanitarian activities in countries involved in the Belt and Road Initiative. (WAMG JING / CHINA DAILY)

Doctors in northwestern China have performed lifesaving surgeries on 17 Afghan children with congenital heart disease, the first of many expected to receive help through an ongoing Red Cross program.

It comes after a Chinese medical team visited Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, late last month to prepare desperately ill youngsters to be flown to China for free advanced treatment.

The first group of 21 children, aged 2 to 14, arrived at the First Affiliated Hospital of Xinjiang Medical University on Aug 30. As of Monday, 17 had undergone successful operations and were recovering well, according to Zhang Haibo, head surgeon for the program.

"The first day of operations (on Friday) all went well," he said. "Doctors from across China have become a great team in the operating room."

Angiza, 2, was among four children who received surgery on Friday. It took seven doctors three hours to fix an atrial septal defect, a serious condition that can affect oxygen levels in the blood.

Other children, like Marwa, have been receiving nonsurgical treatment. The 3-year-old has an abnormal heart structure, which means she is weaker and thinner than an average child of her age. Due to complications, doctors decided that surgery was too risky.

Joma Gull, the child's grandfather, has accompanied her on the trip to Urumqi, capital of the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, which borders Afghanistan.

"I heard about the program about two weeks ago, so I took her to Kabul from my hometown to see the Chinese doctors," he said. "I trust the highly skilled doctors will help Marwa become healthy and have a normal life."

The children and their guardians were expected to stay at the hospital for 15 days, during which staff members will help them to relax in their new environment.

The Red Cross Society of China, which runs the humanitarian program, has said it aims to initially help about 100 children. Meanwhile, the Red Crescent Society of Afghanistan estimates nearly 7,000 Afghan children with congenital heart disease are in urgent need of treatment.



After being screened by Chinese medics at the Kabul Royal Hospital, the first group of 21 children, aged 2 to 14, arrived at the First Affiliated Hospital of Xinjiang Medical University on Aug 30. As of Monday, 17 had undergone successful operations and were recovering well. (WAMG JING / CHINA DAILY)

Doctors from Shanghai, Beijing and Xinjiang arrived at Kabul Royal Hospital to start screening children for the program on Aug 26.

To get there, they traveled in armored vehicles, as suicide bombings and kidnappings are still a threat in the city. However, personal safety was not their major concern.

"Our goal was to bring the children to China for surgery as soon as possible. Anything else was less important," said Sun Shuopeng, secretary-general of the Chinese Red Cross Foundation, the fundraising arm of the society, who led the foreign aid team.




Originally, the doctors planned to screen only children age 7 and under. Yet as the demand among older children was so high, they decided to expand the program to those aged 8 to 14.

"Although some of the children's heart defects are not difficult to fix, they have missed the best time for treatment - which was when they are younger - due to the poor medical conditions in Afghanistan. So there are risks," said surgeon Zhang, who is director of Shanghai Children's Medical Center's cardiothoracic department. 




The program is backed by the Belt and Road Fraternity Fund, which the Chinese Red Cross Foundation launched in February to support humanitarian activities and cooperation in countries involved in the Belt and Road Initiative.

The fund, mostly made up of donations from Chinese corporations, has become a new channel for domestic enterprises to perform humanitarian work, according to Wang Ping, the society's vice-president.

Military conflicts, natural disasters and uneven socioeconomic development are common in countries and regions along the proposed Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road, which means local demand for humanitarian aid is immense, he said.




Using the fund, the foundation established an emergency care center at Pakistan's Gwadar Port in May in cooperation with its local counterpart, the Pakistan Red Crescent Society.

As China's largest humanitarian group, the Red Cross Society is a major platform for boosting people-to-people diplomacy, as it can rally nongovernmental resources as well as boost communication and cooperation at the individual level, Wang said. It is also more likely to be well received by local communities, he added.

As the first 21 children recover from vital treatment and get ready to return to Afghanistan, another group is preparing to head to China.

"We will give the children the best gift they could ever wish for - a new life," Sun said.


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## TaiShang

*Panama can be strategic point to bring Belt-Road Initiative to Latin America*
(Xinhua) 15:42, September 17, 2017






(File photo)

Panama could be a strategic bridge to extend China's Belt and Road Initiative to Latin America, said Francisco Carlo Escobar, the Panamanian ambassador to China appointed after the two countries established diplomatic ties in June.

*In a recent interview with Xinhua, Escobar, who recently presented his credentials to Chinese President Xi Jinping, said that Panama is highly interested in this initiative, which seeks to create a trade and infrastructure network connecting Asia with Europe, Africa and beyond.*

"Panama can be (a strategic place) ... for logistical distribution and perhaps to present certain infrastructure projects which could help the Belt and Road Initiative in the region," he said.

Escobar listed Panama's several advantages to promote the initiative including its geographic position, an interoceanic canal, distribution centers in the Colon Free Trade Zone on the Caribbean, and the favorable laws it offers to multinationals.

Escobar noted that Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei has already operated in Panama as a regional base, saying he is confident that other Chinese companies will follow suit.

The Belt and Road Initiative, put forward by Xi in 2013, is aimed at building the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road through concerted efforts of all related countries to benefit all participants by promoting unimpeded trade, financial integration, infrastructure inter-connectivity and closer people-to-people exchanges.

Talking about the on-going visit by Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi to Panama, the ambassador said the arrangement testifies to mutual interest in boosting diplomatic ties and political consultations between Panama and China.

According to the ambassador, Panama will discuss with the Chinese side the construction of Panama's several important projects including the expansion of Tocumen International Airport and ports in the province of Colon.

Panama also looks forward to consultations with China on cooperation in immigration and tourism, he said.

"We are confident and are looking forward to the future development of relationship between the two countries," said Escobar.

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## TaiShang



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## TaiShang

*Big data report on Belt and Road progress released*
By Guo Yiming
China.org.cn, October 12, 2017

The Belt and Road Initiative has boosted cooperation, trade and corporate competitiveness between China and countries along the route, according to a government report released in Beijing on Thursday.




A data-based report on the progress of the Belt and Road was released by the Chinese government on October 12 in Beijing. [Photo provided to China.org.cn]


Compiled by the State Information Center and published by the Commercial Press, the second annual report also indicated growing interest in local participation, media coverage and academic research as the initiative moves forward.

The report is internationally sourced from 500 billion rows of data from over 200 companies, 800 think tanks and 1,000 media outlets in over 60 Belt and Road countries to assess progress of the China-proposed initiative in eight aspects.

According to the report, cooperation between China and the Belt and Road countries is increasing, *with Russia, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Thailand and Vietnam ranking as the top five partners.* Chinese provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions have shown increased participation in the initiative, with east China taking the lead and west China demonstrating stronger potential.

China’s uptick in trade with other Belt and Road countries, especially neighboring ones, resulted from supportive infrastructure and policy measures. *Chinese companies showed more interest in Belt and Road development and have seen an increased presence along the route, especially those in the construction, manufacturing, finance and internet industries.*

The report also outlined the engagement and contribution of various think tanks and media outlets to policy coordination, facilities connectivity, unimpeded trade,financial integration and people-to-people bond.

“The report will be vital for further decision-making on the government and corporate level,” commented Ou Xiaoli, a senior official from the State Council's special working group on the Belt and Road Initiative.

http://china.org.cn/china/2017-10/12/content_41721382.htm

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## TaiShang

*Cargo train services connect China with 34 European cities*
By Wan Yu (People's Daily) 13:48, October 22, 2017

A working meeting on deepened international cooperation of China-Europe freight trains was recently held in Zhengzhou, central China’s Henan Province.* The event came as data showed that the trains have connected China with 34 cities in 12 European countries after six years of operation.*







_The first Yiwu-Xinjiang-Europe cargo train sets off in November 2014. (Source: People’s Daily Online)_

During the three-day meeting starting on Tuesday*, more than 70 railway representatives from China, Belarus, Germany, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Poland and Russia discussed their collaboration roadmap as well as working plans for the joint working group they set up.* It was also their first meeting as members of the group.

The conference marked an intensified cooperation on China-Europe cargo train services.

*China-Europe freight train, or China Railway Express to Europe, is a cargo train service between China and Europe, as well as Belt and Road countries that runs on fixed routes and schedules.*

More than 5,000 cargo train trips have been made between China and Europe since the start of the direct rail freight services six years ago, *half of which were made in 2017*, showed statistics from China Railway Corporation (CRC).

A total of 57 routes have been opened, linking 34 Chinese cities with 34 European cities in 12 countries. In 2016, the number of China-Europe freight trains surpassed 1,700, *including 1,130 outbound trains and 572 inbound trains, an increase of 109 percent year on year.*

The 13,052-kilometer rail from eastern China’s city of Yiwu to Madrid via Alataw Pass in Xinjiang Region has been in operation for more than 1,000 days since it set off for the first time on November 18, 2014.

Currently, nine routes from Yiwu to Europe have been opened, including the ones to Madrid, London and Prague. With 5 logistics centers and eight overseas warehouses, these routes radiate 34 countries.

The freight train service transports goods from eight Chinese provinces and municipalities including Zhejiang, Guangdong, Anhui, Jiangsu and Shanghai, covering nearly 2,000 items of China-made products such as small commodities, clothes, bags and tools.

Overseas projects, including the China-Belarus Industrial Park, and a wholesale market for small commodities set up by China in Warsaw, also benefited from the service.

Railway authorities of China, Belarus, Germany, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Poland and Russia, inked an agreement to deepen cooperation on China-Europe freight rail services this April, said CRC, adding that this meeting held at its call aims to ensure a better implementation of the agreement.

During the three-day meeting, representatives also discussed next year’s plans, specific operation of the broad-gauge sections, time and place for the team's next meeting and procedures for new member enrollment. 

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/1022/c90000-9283298.html

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## MultaniGuy

Good news. The sooner China becomes the world's largest economy, the better.

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## AsianLion

*The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI): The Great Game and Supply Chains*

Published on May 



*Poonam Datta*

*C-Level Management | Maritime, Logistics & Supply Chain*
“Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy’s back without fighting.” - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

*Introduction*

Anyone who has played chess against a very strong opponent has experienced the situation whereby the game is controlled by the opponent from the start. Even though you may have all your pieces on the board, your pieces seem to be working against you, in tandem with your opponent’s pieces in order to effect a checkmate. The BRI is such a giant chess game being played out in the international arena. That being said, this article seeks to steer away from the discourse of geopolitics about the BRI. It seeks, instead, to delineate the impact of the BRI to global supply chains with special emphasis on the UAE.

*Background*

The ancient Silk Road dates back to about 2000 years ago. It was probably the first example of globalization with trade, culture, technology, and religion flowing across the porous and ever-changing borders of empires. The story of civilization is the story of supply chains. Fast forward to 2013 when the Chinese premier Xi Jinping resurrected the Silk Road and the collective vision of the Chinese Dream.

*What it is*

The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) (known earlier as the One Belt One Road aka OBOR) is a gargantuan Chinese government undertaking to connect the Chinese economy to the economies of Eurasia and Africa. The plan is breath-taking, audacious and ambitious in scope. It envisages the land-based Silk Road Economic Belt (SREB) and the ocean-based Maritime Silk Road (MSR). The official reasons are - (i) Policy co-ordination, (ii) Facilities connectivity (iii) Unimpeded trade, (iv) Financial integration and (v) People-to-people bond.

The plan has 4 main infrastructure pillars essential for trade – (i) Transport, (ii) Energy (iii) Telecommunications and (iv) Special Economic Zones. Depending upon the country, ‘Transport’ could mean modernizing or setting up from scratch of roads (including bridges), rail (including metros), waterways (including ports) and airports. ‘Energy’ could mean modernizing or developing power plants (hydro, solar, coal, wind) as well as laying oil and gas pipelines. The third pillar of ‘Telecommunications’ is modernizing or setting up telecommunications networks (optical cables, satellites). The fourth pillar is the setting up of Special Economic Zones (SEZ’s) such as Gwadar (Pakistan) or Djibouti which serve as a funnel for trade to pass through.

A back of the napkin calculation shows that the BRI will cover almost 1/3rd of the world’s countries and land area, about 2/3rd of the global population, close to 1/3rd of global GDP and 1/3rd of Household Consumption. It is expected to lead to trillions of dollars invested in thousands of major and minor projects in these countries. The primary inbound flows towards China will be commodities and resources whereas the primary outbound flows will be manufactured products. As is expected for a project of this size and scope, the completion date is expected to be 2049 to coincide with the centenary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China. Needless to say, such a huge undertaking will have far-reaching consequences to global supply chains. Let’s look at these in a little more detail. 

*The terrestrial corridors*

· The New Eurasian Land Bridge (NELB)

The NELB is a 10,000 km plus overland cross-border road and rail network linking Eastern China with Western Europe. It passes through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, and Poland. Currently, the rail network links about 40 odd Chinese cities with 40 plus European cities (in 13 countries). An example of a link is the freight train line from China's Tangshan (Hebei Province) to Antwerp, Belgium. This line cuts transport time to just 16 days thereby shaving travel time by sea by a third. It thus offers a more efficient supply chain for goods from North Eastern China, Japan, South Korea and East Russia.

China is the largest partner for EU imports and the second largest partner for EU exports in 2017. The value of exports from China to the EU was USD 450 billion while imports into China from the EU add up to $240 billion. Manufactured goods (Machinery, Chemicals etc.) dominate both the exports of goods from the EU to China and imports from China to the EU, accounting for 85 % of the total exports and 97 % of total imports. Add to this, Japan and South Korea’s trade with the EU and one may see a disruption of existing shipping lines transporting goods from North-East Asia to the EU.

This corridor is important for reasons of providing China direct access to the large markets of Europe. It connects the Yellow Sea, the East China Sea and the South China Sea with the Baltic Sea and the North Sea.

· The China–Mongolia–Russia Economic Corridor (CMREC)

The CMREC will run from Northern China to Eastern Russia. It has two branches. One starts from China's Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region and extends to Hohhot (China). It then becomes the Steppe Road running through Mongolia connecting the Gashuun Sukhait Free Trade Zones (FTZ) on the Sino-Mongolian border to the Altanboulag FTZ on the Russian-Mongolian border. The other branch extends from China's Dalian, Shenyang, Changchun, Harbin, and Manzhouli to Russia's Chita, which serves as the gateway to Siberia and Russia’s Far East.

Trade between China and Russia was $84 billion in 2017 and is expected to touch $100 in 2018. It has been growing at the pace of 15-20% over the last decade. Russia surpassed Saudi Arabia as China’s largest source of foreign crude oil in 2016, exporting 1.2 million b/d to China in 2017. Trade between China and Mongolia in 2017 stands at $7 billion. Mongolia has abundant raw materials and mineral resources. The Steppe road will be especially important to serve the Oyu Tolgoi (copper and gold mines) and Tavan Tolgoi (coal mines) as well as meat products to Chinese markets.

This corridor is important for reasons of providing China with fuel, minerals and meat products. Besides, it provides access to Russia’s huge Siberian and Far Eastern territories.

· China-Central and West Asia Economic Corridor (CCWAEC)

The CCWAEC runs from Western China through Central Asia and branches out towards Turkey, Iran and perhaps eventually Saudi Arabia. It is expected to start in Urumqi in the Chinese province of Xinjiang and pass through Khorgas on the China-Kazakhstan border. It then moves onward through Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan until it reaches Iran. In Iran, one section is expected to end at Bandar Abbas (Iran). Another section is expected to pass onward through Azerbaijan, Georgia and terminate in Turkey. A third may well end up reaching the Arabian Peninsula. Turkey further becomes the gateway to the Balkans, Eastern Europe and eventually Western Europe on one hand and the North African ports on the other. The Arabian Peninsula provides access to a large swathe of North-East Africa.

China surpassed the United States in annual gross crude oil imports in 2017, importing 8.4 million barrels per day (b/d). Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Oman are major exporters of oil to China. China has also surpassed South Korea to become the world’s second-largest importer of liquefied natural gas (LNG) in 2017 by importing on average, 5 billion cubic feet per day (Bcf/d) in 2017. Most countries along this corridor have large proven reserves of natural gas. Furthermore, China has 17 LNG import terminals at 14 ports along its coastline can be used to supply Japan and South Korea with their energy needs. Bilateral trade between China and Iran, Turkey and the GCC was $32 billion, $27 billion and $114 billion respectively in 2016 and has considerable room for growth.

This corridor is thus important for providing the fuel which will keep China’s economic engine humming nicely for the rest of the 21st century. Moreover, this corridor links Xinjiang to five water bodies viz. the Caspian Sea, the Strait of Hormuz, the Persian Gulf, the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.

· China-Indo-China Peninsula Economic Corridor (CICPEC)

The CICPEC is expected to run from Southern China to Singapore. It envisages the linking of the southern cities of Kunming, Nanning and the Pearl River Delta cities (Hong Kong, Guangzhou) to the major cities in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Myanmar. One such network under construction is the Pan-Asia Railway Network. Kunming in China and Bangkok in Thailand are the two regional hubs. There will be a Central route which will run from Kunming through Boten on the China-Laos border onto Vientiane in Laos and terminate in Bangkok. The Eastern route is expected to run from Kunming through Hekou on the China-Vietnam border on to the Vietnamese cities of Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City and terminate in Bangkok. The Western route overlaps with the Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor (BCIMEC). It will from Kunming to Ruili on the China-Myanmar border on to the Burmese cities of Mandalay and Yangon and finally terminate in Bangkok. The final leg of the Railway network is from Bangkok through Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia and it terminates in Singapore.

This region accounts for 7 of the ASEAN countries. It can be used to access the remaining three ASEAN countries of Indonesia, Philippines and Brunei. If ASEAN were a single entity, it would rank as the sixth largest economy in the world. In 2016, China remained as ASEAN’s top trading partner, with total trade in goods amounting to US$368 billion. The ASEAN territorial waters are three times larger than its total land making it particularly important in terms of sea lanes and fisheries. It can also be used as the gateway to Australia and New Zealand.

This corridor is important due to the pinch point of the Straits of Malacca through which China’s oil currently passes. Also, most of the ASEAN states are littoral to the South China Sea. Closer integration with ASEAN can mean closer cooperation in the South China Seas.

· Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor (BCIMEC)

The BCIMEC is expected to connect China’s Southwest provinces with Myanmar, Bangladesh and India’s North East. It is expected to link the cities of Kunming (China), Mandalay (Myanmar), Dhaka (Bangladesh) and Kolkata (India). The project envisages road, rail, waterways and air linkages. Also under the umbrella of BCIMEC, is the 2000 km expressway which starts from Southwest China’s Yunnan province and extends to the central Myanmar city of Mandalay, then to the south to the capital Yangon and also to the west to Sittwe and the Kyaukpyu Special Economic Zone. There is also a 2000 km long rail link between Kunming and Yangon.

Bilateral trade between China (excluding Hong Kong) and India, Bangladesh and Myanmar was $85 billion, $15 billion and $13.5 billion respectively in 2017. Chinese companies will be able to access the Bay of Bengal from multiple ports. Oil pipelines from some of these ports (Made port near Kyaukpyu) to Kunming are operational allowing China to obtain oil bypassing the straits of Malacca. Air routes are also opening up between Kunming and various cities in these three countries. 

This corridor has the most economic potential among the corridors because it links 3 billion people together.

· The China–Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC)

The CPEC is one of the flagship projects under the BRI linking the Chinese province of Xinjiang to the Arabian Sea and the Gulf of Oman via Gwadar in Pakistan. The main artery of this $60+ billion project is the 3000 km long link between China’s Kashgar in Xinjiang and Pakistan’s Gwadar port on the Arabian Sea. New roads will also link Gwadar with Chaman on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border thereby providing an entry point into Afghanistan. Also on the anvil is a 1700 km railway line between Gwadar and Khunjerab on the Pakistan-China border.

China-Pakistan bilateral trade stands at about $18 billion in 2017. Gwadar is the gateway to the Gulf Cooperation Council states with which China has trade worth $114 billion in 2016. A third of China’s oil imports come from the GCC states and Qatar is one of China’s largest source of Natural gas. The CPEC is operational with Chinese cargo being transported overland to Gwadar Port for onward maritime shipment to Africa and West Asia. Sea Food originating in the Indian Ocean is making the trip in reverse, to be sold in the markets of Xinjiang and beyond. This land-based route significantly cuts the distance from Mainland China to the Persian Gulf compared to the sea-based route. 

This corridor is of strategic importance because it is located not too far from another pinch point i.e. the Strait of Hormuz through which a large amount of oil destined for China passes. This reduces corridor reduces the dependence on the Straits of Malacca.

*The Maritime routes aka Blue Economic Passages*

The 21st Century Maritime Silk Road (MSR)

The MSR seeks to link China with the remaining ASEAN countries, Oceania and Africa. It thus complements the terrestrial corridors. It has two main components – (i) Coastal China - South China Sea – Indian Ocean – Mediterranean Sea/Atlantic Ocean – Europe and (ii) Coastal China – South China Sea / Philippine Sea – Australia / New Zealand.

Both of the components are the conventional routes. The first route has a military dimension to it and the military assets i.e. bases are referred to as ‘string of pearls’.

The Ice Silk Road (ISR)

The ISR seeks to link China with Europe and North America via the Arctic Ocean. It thus presents an alternative to existing routes via the Suez Canal or the Pacific Ocean. It has two main components viz. (i) Coastal China - Bering Sea – Arctic Ocean (hugging North Coastal Russia) – Scandinavia (Europe) and (ii) Coastal China – Bering Sea – Arctic Ocean (hugging North Coastal Canada) – USA (North America)

The Chinese state-owned shipping company Cosco has already begun sending container ships via the Ice Silk Road since 2013. Besides the obvious reasons of the Arctic Ocean holding substantial deposits of oil and natural gas, the Northern Route from Northern coastal China to Northern Europe is expected to cut distance traveled by a third and shipping time by a week.

*Impact on UAE*

Dubai Plan 2021’s vision “to become a global platform for knowledge-based, sustainable and innovative industries.” The 5 strategic objectives of the vision entail –

(i) Growth Engine - Increase total GDP and value-added of manufacturing

(ii) Innovation Based - Enhance depth of knowledge and innovation

(iii) Home for Global Businesses - Become the preferred manufacturing platform for global businesses

(iv) Environmentally Sustainable - Promote environmentally-friendly and energy efficient manufacturing

(v) Adopting Islamic Standard - Become a center for the global Islamic products market

The BRI dovetails seamlessly with these strategies. Trade between the UAE and China is forecasted to be about $80 billion in 2018. The economic potential is much higher. Dubai lies at the intersection of 2 of the terrestrial corridors and 1 of the maritime passages viz. CCWAEC, CPEC and MSR. Dubai’s forward-thinking leadership, international talent pool, rule of law, business-friendly atmosphere, world-class facilities and geopolitical neutrality is unmatched by any other city in the Middle East, South Asia or Africa. Dubai can thus be a pivot and be poised for a larger role in linking the following markets together – (i) China, Russia, Central Asia and the Middle East with Africa (ii) Europe, Middle East and North Africa with South Asia, the ASEAN countries and Oceania.

*Benefits:*

In the 1950’s, America set out building 40,000 plus miles of highways to link the nation together. According to one estimate, that project has returned more than $6 in economic productivity for every $1 it cost. The BRI is expected, according to Chinese government estimates, to generate a total economic turnover of over $20 trillion.

Although the primary beneficiaries will be China and Chinese companies, the economic benefits will cascade down across the board to countries, industries and companies across the globe. These supply chains will need multi-modal transport systems. The highways will need semi-trailer trucks. The maritime routes and waterways will need ships and ferries. The airports will need passenger and cargo planes. The improved infrastructure, lower transit costs and economic integration of many low-wage areas along the routes could see manufacturing operations shift to these areas. Apart from the windfall for the manufacturers of transportation equipment, the service industries will also stand to benefit. Companies involved in hospitality and financial services will benefit immensely. The economic prosperity of the participating nations will spur the demand for a whole slew of products including two and four wheelers, consumer goods, white goods and electronic goods.

*Conclusion*

The BRI is the linking of the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic, Indian and Arctic Oceans via the Eurasian landmass. Due to the sheer magnitude and number of stakeholders, the going will not always be smooth as silk. In order to ensure the successful completion, it is imperative for the dominant stakeholder to take into account the considerations of the other stakeholders so that the project is successful. The BRI presents a new opportunity wherein trade can be the tool used to maintain peace between nations. If this ‘Great Game’ is played correctly, it can be a win-win scenario for all concerned.



Other Supply Chain articles by the same author –

*The Global Trends driving Supply Chains*

*Virtual Supply Chains made easy*

*Lasting Impact of Last Mile Delivery*

*Blockchain for Shipping & Logistics*

*The Digitization of the Shipping Industry: 2020 CE and beyond*

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## AsianLion



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## Stranagor



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