# US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan



## Blue Marlin

*US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan *





* The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan – each worth an estimated $165 million – and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.*


US lawmakers on Wednesday used very strong language to oppose the sale of armament to Pakistan, arguing it cannot be trusted because of its continued support for terrorism.

One lawmaker called it a “snitch” in the context of why the US didn’t inform Pakistan before the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad in May 2011.

Another member called Pakistan a “Benedict Arnold” ally, referencing an American general who switched sides during the War of Independence to join the British.

They were at a hearing of the US House of Representatives’ foreign affairs committee called to review counter-terrorism ties with Pakistan in the light of the San Bernardino shootings. Tashfeen Malik and her husband Syed Rizwan Farook, both of Pakistani origin, shot and killed 14 people in the attack.

“I doubt that anyone who follows Pakistan closely was surprised to learn that one of the San Bernardino attackers – Tashfeen Malik – studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message,” committee chairman Ed Royce said in his opening remarks.

Announcing the hearing last week, the committee said it would look at US aid to Pakistan – $30 billion since September 11, 2001, according to a lawmaker.

The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan – each worth an estimated $165 million – and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.

Ted Poe, a Republican member of the House of Representatives, opposed the sale at the hearing, saying Pakistan had scrambled its F-16s after the Abbottabad raid.

A raid, Poe said, about which the US did not give Pakistan an advance warning as they would “snitch us off and Osama bin Laden would have left”.

“We need to be very concerned about providing armaments for Pakistan who seems to play all the sides,” he added.

Dana Rohrabacher, another Republican member of the House used Benedict Arnold to portray Pakistan as an untrustworthy ally completely undeserving of American aid.

“The clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers and they should,” he said, “because…we are giving people money who have continually involved themselves in acts harmful” to the US.

The lawmakers expressed concern about Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, which is expected to become the world’s third largest by 2025, according to a recent study.

US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan | world | Hindustan Times

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## Irfan Baloch

guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.

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## Bratva

No wonder, if this is the level of intellect shown b US policy makers, Their foreign policies constantly backfires w.r.t fighting a war against terrorism.

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## yolo2016

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.



So you mean to say that Indians RAW influences us about Haqqani network and other thriving terror groups that Pakistan supports?. That it is a pipe dream that we(our intelligence) found you to support those terror groups who kill our soldiers, and others? Always with the reflexive "he did it gene" on everything?



Bratva said:


> No wonder, if this is the level of intellect shown b US policy makers, Their foreign policies constantly backfires w.r.t fighting a war against terrorism.


Fair enough, you say we have low intellect. Then why do you send General Sharif to our country begging for more aid? You got super duper J17 you could buy from China or J 31! we are totally replaceable.



Blue Marlin said:


> @Irfan Baloch
> @PARIKRAMA used this picture which is somthing i sort of have to agree with. what do you think.


So U.S sends terrorists into India from pakistan and was behind 26/11? The lies the problem in the above scenario

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## mingle

It will go through no worries its all about saving jobs and taxes


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## ArsalanKhan21

The whole policy of supporting Taliban was fundamentally wrong. If Pakistan Army and/or ISI knew where Bin Laden was living it was treason. Saudi Arabia-born Tashfeen Malik was radicalized in Saudi Arabia. American-born husband Syed Rizwan Farook attacked because he had arguments with anti-Muslim person in San Bernardino nothing directly relating to Pakistan. Syed Rizwan Farook graduated from California State University, San Bernardino does that mean that University must be suspect ? Tashfeen Malik studied at Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan on the seat reserved for Overseas Pakistanis and she rarely interacted with the University staff and other students. If you want to blame Bahauddin Zakariya University than equally blame California State University.

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## The Sandman

Blue Marlin said:


> @Irfan Baloch
> @PARIKRAMA used this picture which is somthing i sort of have to agree with. what do you think.


 murica fk yeah!!!

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## Humble Analyst

mingle said:


> It will go through no worries its all about saving jobs and taxes


This will not go through, wake up rightly or wrongly the scene is changing against Pakistan.


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## mingle

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The whole policy of supporting Taliban was fundamentally wrong. If Pakistan Army and/or ISI knew where Bin Laden was living it was treason. Saudi Arabia-born Tashfeen Malik was radicalized in Saudi Arabia. American-born husband Syed Rizwan Farook attacked because he had arguments with anti-Muslim person in San Bernardino nothing directly relating to Pakistan. Syed Rizwan Farook graduated from California State University, San Bernardino does that mean that University must be suspect ? Tashfeen Malik studied at Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan on the seat reserved for Overseas Pakistanis and she rarely interacted with the University staff and other students. If you want to blame Bahauddin Zakariya University than equally blame California State University.


What about rest of 349 shootings where those morons got rediclaized ?they r just dum this deal will go through even after this pak interested more copies of F16 will go through again bussiness comes first then any moralities .

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## Blue Marlin

yolo2016 said:


> So you mean to say that Indians RAW influences us about Haqqani network and other thriving terror groups that Pakistan supports?. That it is a pipe dream that we(our intelligence) found you to support those terror groups who kill our soldiers, and others? Always with the reflexive "he did it gene" on everything?
> 
> 
> Fair enough, you say we have low intellect. Then why do you send General Sharif to our country begging for more aid? You got super duper J17 you could buy from China or J 31! we are totally replaceable.
> 
> 
> So U.S sends terrorists into India from pakistan and was behind 26/11? The lies the problem in the above scenario


no, in the sense that the usa will sell weapons to both countries and *may* use a bit of 'pushing' from one side to make the other comply

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## mingle

Humble Analyst said:


> This will not go through wake up rightly or wrongly the scene is changing against Pakistan.


Ok will go through without pak American Dums r nothing in Afghanistan .


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## yolo2016

Blue Marlin said:


> no, in the sense that the usa will sell weapons to both countries and *may* use a bit of 'pushing' from one side to make the other comply



You make no sense. U.S does not determine pakistan or india's policy towards each other. If anything, we are victims of terrorism from pakistan too. Obama is a fool for selling weapons or giving aid to Pakistan. But i also see why he does- we need to pay off pakistan for the supply route.


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## Humble Analyst

mingle said:


> What about rest of 349 shootings where those morons go rediclaized ?they r just dum this deal will go through even after this pak interested more copies of F16 will go through again bussiness comes first then any moralities .


8 planes is not business 50, hundred or 200 planes is business


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## ArsalanKhan21

yolo2016 said:


> Fair enough, you say we have low intellect. Then why do you send General Sharif to our country begging for more aid? You got super duper J17 you could buy from China or J 31! we are totally replaceable



The main reason for meetings is for both sides to present their arguments, understand each others policies and try to have an understanding. General Sharif presented Pakistani point of view and he was questioned on many issues. Pakistan defense requirements were discussed and minimum order of 8 F-16 was approved by White House.

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## mingle

Humble Analyst said:


> 8 planes is not business 50, hundred or 200 planes is business


Sir i told u will go through 8 is initial more r on the way .i wrote the reason before .


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## Blue Marlin

yolo2016 said:


> You make no sense. U.S does not determine pakistan or india's policy towards each other. If anything, we are victims of terrorism from pakistan too. Obama is a fool for selling weapons or giving aid to Pakistan. But i also see why he does- we need to pay off pakistan for the supply route.


do you thin the usa as a whole is stupid enough to let business with pakistn go? even if it is little.

remember the gunship fiasco. they wanted zulus and they said no. all of a sudden china, turkey and russia stepped in and offered to fill the void. then the usa jumps in and gives an offer to good to refuse. and they take it as well as some from russia and china too. but the later 2 were not worth $900+ million. the usa got the big chunk

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## Humble Analyst

yolo2016 said:


> You make no sense. U.S does not determine pakistan or india's policy towards each other. If anything, we are victims of terrorism from pakistan too. Obama is a fool for selling weapons or giving aid to Pakistan. But i also see why he does- we need to pay off pakistan for the supply route.


Putting money on Karzai does not pay off, it was better if Pashtoons being the majority been engaged in talks so US could have gotten out earlier, now proxy wars are being played from all sides. This is the problem no one is honest or no one is acting sensibly. The game of OBL is more than it meets the eye as it appears. Now that Iran is in check the World has to go after Pakistan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Just hear Donald Trump's speeches it is all clear. There will be plenty reasons for doing what is the intention. How many people died due terrorism in Pakistan? Guess that does not count han?

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## Viper0011.

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.



Common man, you know better.......if the California event hadn't happened, I think Pakistan was going to get the jets. This terror attack wasted NS and RS's entire effort spanning over two months!! There was a relationship that had started to take form. But this attack has left a HUGE mark on stuff and on people's hearts and minds. And Pakistan's name was in it big times again. I am actually surprised that this time, the US media played a very mature role and as always, didn't grill Pakistan to the degree it usually does. But nevertheless, one of the attackers was going to a religious school in Pakistan so there is serious association and the fact remains, how deep is this religious mess inside Pakistani cities?? 

There are serious sentiments inside the US, whether it be the people or the government and for all the right reasons. I don't think Indians or any other lobby has to do anything with it. The damage is done, will the Indian lobby make use of it and will further tell the US law makers "we told you so, they'll keep attacking you", you bet!! 

Can the US lawmakers deny that? I don't think so. We just got attacked YET one more time. There is no argument that beats the sad and scary reality!!

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## Pakistani E

How about the US stop selling weapons to the Saudis? You know the actual ones who's ideology was exported to Pakistan thanks to US approval for fighting the soviets, the same ideology that flew planes in to the twin towers. The same ideology that founded Al qaeda. The same ideology that ISIS takes its roots from. The same ideology that this woman was radicalised with. 

Any chance of stopping weapons sales to the Saudis ? Or you just love their money?

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## Viper0011.

mingle said:


> It will go through no worries its all about saving jobs and taxes



Really?? You truly think the largest economy on the globe is REALLY worried about a few hundred jobs and EIGHT jets?? 

And you think we have no national pride or respect for our country? You need to wake up and look around. We've been in Afghanistan for over a decade and a half due to our national pride. And it has cost us trillions. Not sure how a billion dollar worth of deal is such a big deal!! 

The US has respected Pakistan as a partner and has worked with her for decades. But if there will be attacks on us, trust me, even a 1000 jobs won't matter!!


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## Humble Analyst

Viper0011. said:


> Common man, you know better.......if the California event hadn't happened, I think Pakistan was going to get the jets. This terror attack wasted NS and RS's entire effort spanning over two months!! There was a relationship that had started to take form. But this attack has left a HUGE mark on stuff and on people's hearts and minds. And Pakistan's name was in it big times again. I am actually surprised that this time, the US media played a very mature role and as always, didn't grill Pakistan to the degree it usually does. But nevertheless, one of the attackers was going to a religious school in Pakistan so there is serious association and the fact remains, how deep is this religious mess inside Pakistani cities??
> 
> There are serious sentiments inside the US, whether it be the people or the government and for all the right reasons. I don't think Indians or any other lobby has to do anything with it. The damage is done, will the Indian lobby make use of it and will further tell the US law makers "we told you so, they'll keep attacking you", you bet!!
> 
> Can the US lawmakers deny that? I don't think so. We just got attacked YET one more time. There is no argument that beats the sad and scary reality!!


She did not go to religious school, she attended a university. Blaming a nation for a person's individual actions to this extent is wrong. Britain dealt with IRA, did not punish all Irish people or Ireland. But people in US like to generalize. By reacting the way people are reacting in US they help these terrorists but that it is too complicated to understand once people belong to a big country, they want to put everybody in same bracket. Yes Pakistan has issues but it is or never was US enemy. Even everybody has forgotten the Cold War era. Loyalty, fairness, justice, values are disappearing from World and terrorists are succeeding day by day.

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## Viper0011.

Pakistani Exile said:


> How about the US stop selling weapons to the Saudis?



Why do you think they bought EFT's???? They have heard the message loud and clear. 

But the topic isn't about KSA, nor was one of the shooters radicalized there. That took place elsewhere. Who would you like to bring into the picture in the next post to divert the attention?

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## Humble Analyst

Viper0011. said:


> Really?? You truly think the largest economy on the globe is REALLY worried about a few hundred jobs and EIGHT jets??
> 
> And you think we have no national pride or respect for our country? You need to wake up and look around. We've been in Afghanistan for over a decade and a half due to our national pride. And it has cost us trillions. Not sure how a billion dollar worth of deal is such a big deal!!
> 
> The US has respected Pakistan as a partner and has worked with her for decades. But if there will be attacks on us, trust me, even a 1000 jobs won't matter!!


It appear she lived most of her life in Saudi Arabia and briefly studied in Pakistan in a University. So are we gonna stop selling to KSA? If one pro life goes and kills people in abortion clinic are all pro life declared terrorists? But this is going nowhere nature will takes its course and History will judge better.

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## Viper0011.

Humble Analyst said:


> *She did not go to religious school, she attended a university. Blaming a nation for a person's individual actions to this extent is wrong.* Britain dealt with IRA, did not punish all Irish people or Ireland. But people in US like to generalize. By reacting the way people are reacting in US they help these terrorists but that it is too complicated to understand once people belong to a big country, they want to put everybody in same bracket. Yes Pakistan has issues but it is or never was US enemy. Even everybody has forgotten the Cold War era. Loyalty, fairness, justice, values are disappearing from World and terrorists are succeeding day by day.



She went to a Pharmacy school and she also attended a Maddrassa or a religious institute. Everyone knows it. I am sure the FBI will provide all the details sooner or later and we can all be more frustrated listening to how these people turn into killing machines without mercy for anyone!!

But, no one's blaming a nation for it. But everyone will question it. You have to think of the loss the other party suffered too. So this will have some draw backs, even temporarily. If I was in the Pakistani leadership, I would've started to contact the US leadership in congress. Initiating contact and reminding the other party of the relationship and offering sincere help, is never a bad idea.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.



The "Indian" Lobby isnt necessary, just the American Media is sufficient.


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## Sharpshooter12

yolo2016 said:


> Fair enough, you say we have low intellect. Then why do you send General Sharif to our country begging for more aid? You got super duper J17 you could buy from China or J 31! we are totally replaceable.


So you are irreplaceable, we get that. But so are we. Best of luck for solving that Afghan puzzle without us.


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## General General

Viper0011. said:


> Really?? You truly think the largest economy on the globe is REALLY worried about a few hundred jobs and EIGHT jets??
> 
> And you think we have no national pride or respect for our country? You need to wake up and look around. We've been in Afghanistan for over a decade and a half due to our national pride. And it has cost us trillions. Not sure how a billion dollar worth of deal is such a big deal!!
> 
> The US has respected Pakistan as a partner and has worked with her for decades. But if there will be attacks on us, trust me, even a 1000 jobs won't matter!!


After the attack on the Twin Towers, there was a no-fly-zone enforced all over the U.S. Only one plane was allowed to fly that day, non-stop, to Saudi Arabia. The jet contained all members of the Bin Laden family who were living in the U.S. The Bush family still has billions invested in their oil business. Guilty through association?

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## Humble Analyst

Viper0011. said:


> She went to a Pharmacy school and she also attended a Maddrassa or a religious institute. Everyone knows it. I am sure the FBI will provide all the details sooner or later and we can all be more frustrated listening to how these people turn into killing machines without mercy for anyone!!
> 
> But, no one's blaming a nation for it. But everyone will question it. You have to think of the loss the other party suffered too. So this will have some draw backs, even temporarily. If I was in the Pakistani leadership, I would've started to contact the US leadership in congress. Initiating contact and reminding the other party of the relationship and offering sincere help, is never a bad idea.


Yes agree with you and Pakistan needs to really remove the root causes of this issues for the sake of Pakistan and the World. However the media in US is not highlighting how many people are dying in terrorists attack in Pakistan. If that is reported fully in US then ordinary person will sympathize to some extent with Pakistani people too, while still asking them to take more responsibility and clean the mess in Pakistan. But I do not see that, just a rare mention once in a great while. That makes me worried and then People who support Donald Trump who want to bracket 1.6 billion in the same category of a few thousand terrorists. Common sense tells me World should isolate them. Yes Muslims have problems but is the reaction right? Or would the current reaction solve the problem or make it worse for the whole World?


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## Viper0011.

Humble Analyst said:


> It appear she lived most of her life in Saudi Arabia and briefly studied in Pakistan in a University. So are we gonna stop selling to KSA? If one pro life goes and kills people in abortion clinic are all pro life declared terrorists? But this is going nowhere nature will takes its course and History will judge better.



I think you are making a mistake in doing a comparison. The reality is, the American people have always welcomed immigrants as American foundations are based on immigration. The Muslims from all over were welcomed to America like everyone else as long as they came in legally.

Just one example. the Indians started to come in numbers like a decade and a half ago. They have Muslims too. But you tend to see more radicalization in Pakistan? It is a sad fact. Also, I can make this distinction because of my personal background and experiences in life. But to an average American family who doesn't know about Pakistan, Malaysia or Yemen, they just know that these guys were muslims and went to a mosque and all. So they will classify them as Muslims. You guys don't care about your own actions and how they make you look bad. There are so many threads on this forum where Pakistanis, write so much hatred about each other, due to their personal affiliations, family structure, military affiliation, etc. The reader often wonder if you guys can ever be trusted as one nation, or is it always divided. You (average Pakistanis) are responsible for creating a better image for your country with your actions (talking, respecting the law, posts on this forum, etc, etc). No one else will do it for you. Do you see the Indians writing so much crap about their system, leaders, or each other? NO!! Whatever they do, they know they are representing India and India has to come up as a peaceful, fun, colorful country. And they have made the world believe in it through peace and working with everyone (even if the reality may be different).

Also, on the comparison of the mass shooter vs. the California terrorists....here's an analogy. If your own son beats up your younger son for wrong reasons, you'll get upset as a dad, you'll yell at your older son but it remains inside the family and you deal with it.

But if a stranger guy from some far away place, came to you and asked you to live with you. And many years down the road, he beat the living out of your younger son, would you tolerate it? HELL NO!! So the way the American public sees this, is from that standpoint, that Muslims today, have more freedom here in the US then what they can get in their home countries. But instead of being appreciating of the fact, they are out there to hurt us? I am not generalizing the entire religion, I am just presenting an American perspective on it.

Why hurt the US if you LIVE here and are given all the rights like what people from the US enjoy?? If you have issues with the US, her foreign policy, or anything else, and you'll get pissed of and hurt the locals one day, perhaps, this isn't the place for you. Perception is reality and unfortunately, with this example I gave you, everyone else does look bad "One bad apple spoils the whole barrel"!!

When you go live somewhere else, you adapt the law of the land, try to assimilate in the local culture and accept that land as is. Because the land accepted you first. In this case, the land accepted others and told them they can practice their belief system too. Then why hurt other people living on that land??



General General said:


> After the attack on the Twin Towers, there was a no-fly-zone enforced all over the U.S. Only one plane was allowed to fly that day, non-stop, to Saudi Arabia. The jet contained all members of the Bin Laden family who were living in the U.S. The Bush family still has billions invested in their oil business. Guilty through association?



This is the beauty of American freedom actually. They were given safety as someone would've killed them. In fact, I would almost bet, the sad and terrible nature of that event since the Pearl Harbor, was SO grave, that even if you gave them police for protection, I don't think the police officers would've taken the assignment, or done it right.

What do you expect the US to have done? Locked the women and children into Gitmo for terrorist events that OBL did???? The American nation and principles don't stand for it. But the government is responsible for providing security to residents of the US. So IMO that was a good call to send them out by President Bush. Granted that actually happened the way you are stating it did. Not sure in that time, only one flight was allowed by the US President and it leaked out to you  sitting thousands of miles away....when things like these are usually confidential and secret !!

On Bush's business connections, I am sure the connections are there and its natural to do business globally in today's world. But I can ALSO assure you, when Bush or anyone else, including myself thinks about doing business with another country, we expect "PROFIT", not terror attacks on our homes !!!!

Its unbelievable to see the ignorance, arrogance and low quality attitude from people who just LOVE to point all fingers back to the US WITHOUT taking ONE cent's worth of responsibility for the craziness that goes on in Pakistan!!

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## Humble Analyst

Viper0011. said:


> I think you are making a mistake in doing a comparison. The reality is, the American people have always welcomed immigrants as American foundations are based on immigration. The Muslims from all over were welcomed to America like everyone else as long as they came in legally.
> 
> Just one example. the Indians started to come in numbers like a decade and a half ago. They have Muslims too. But you tend to see more radicalization in Pakistan? It is a sad fact. Also, I can make this distinction because of my personal background and experiences in life. But to an average American family who doesn't know about Pakistan, Malaysia or Yemen, they just know that these guys were muslims and went to a mosque and all. So they will classify them as Muslims. You guys don't care about your own actions and how they make you look bad. There are so many threads on this forum where Pakistanis, write so much hatred about each other, due to their personal affiliations, family structure, military affiliation, etc. The reader often wonder if you guys can ever be trusted as one nation, or is it always divided. You (average Pakistanis) are responsible for creating a better image for your country with your actions (talking, respecting the law, posts on this forum, etc, etc). No one else will do it for you. Do you see the Indians writing so much crap about their system, leaders, or each other? NO!! Whatever they do, they know they are representing India and India has to come up as a peaceful, fun, colorful country. And they have made the world believe in it through peace and working with everyone (even if the reality may be different).
> 
> Also, on the comparison of the mass shooter vs. the California terrorists....here's an analogy. If your own son beats up your younger son for wrong reasons, you'll get upset as a dad, you'll yell at your older son but it remains inside the family and you deal with it.
> 
> But if a stranger guy from some far away place, came to you and asked you to live with you. And many years down the road, he beat the living out of your younger son, would you tolerate it? HELL NO!! So the way the American public sees this, is from that standpoint, that Muslims today, have more freedom here in the US then what they can get in their home countries. But instead of being appreciating of the fact, they are out there to hurt us? I am not generalizing the entire religion, I am just presenting an American perspective on it.
> 
> Why hurt the US if you LIVE here and are given all the rights like what people from the US enjoy?? If you have issues with the US, her foreign policy, or anything else, and you'll get pissed of and hurt the locals one day, perhaps, this isn't the place for you. Perception is reality and unfortunately, with this example I gave you, everyone else does look bad "One bad apple spoils the whole barrel"!!
> 
> When you go live somewhere else, you adapt the law of the land, try to assimilate in the local culture and accept that land as is. Because the land accepted you first. In this case, the land accepted others and told them they can practice their belief system too. Then why hurt other people living on that land??
> 
> 
> 
> This is the beauty of American freedom actually. They were given safety as someone would've killed them. In fact, I would almost bet, the sad and terrible nature of that event since the Pearl Harbor, was SO grave, that even if you gave them police for protection, I don't think the police officers would've taken the assignment, or done it right.
> 
> What do you expect the US to have done? Locked the women and children into Gitmo for terrorist events that OBL did???? The American nation and principles don't stand for it. But the government is responsible for providing security to residents of the US. So IMO that was a good call to send them out by President Bush. Granted that actually happened the way you are stating it did. Not sure in that time, only one flight was allowed by the US President and it leaked out to you  sitting thousands of miles away....when things like these are usually confidential and secret !!
> 
> On Bush's business connections, I am sure the connections are there and its natural to do business globally in today's world. But I can ALSO assure you, when Bush or anyone else, including myself thinks about doing business with another country, we expect "PROFIT", not terror attacks on our homes !!!!
> 
> Its unbelievable to see the ignorance, arrogance and low quality attitude from people who just LOVE to point all fingers back to the US WITHOUT taking ONE cent's worth of responsibility for the craziness that goes on in Pakistan!!


I agree with most of the things you say, another example is did UK declare all Irish terrorist for having IRA as terrorists? Yes Pakistanis are not really united and there is corruption and lack of education. However I never worked in Pakistan so to me you go by individual actions. Natural instinct is to be biased but one has to resist that temptation. I am not wrong the reaction by ordinary people and Donald Trump will make things worse and help the terrorists. If you cannot see that I will not drag it further.


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## Viper0011.

Humble Analyst said:


> I agree with most of the things you say, another example is did UK declare all Irish terrorist for having IRA as terrorists? Yes Pakistanis are not really united and there is corruption and lack of education. However I never worked in Pakistan so to me you go by individual actions. Natural instinct is to be biased but one has to resist that temptation. I am not wrong the reaction by ordinary people and Donald Trump will make things worse and help the terrorists. If you cannot see that I will not drag it further.



Re-read the 3rd and 4th paragraph from the lengthy post you quoted me from. Its the answer to what you are asking above. The Irish weren't outsiders who were given equal rights and respected for being different. They were internal, a part of overall UK, or considered as such. But here, people came here and lived here, and were given all the rights. There was no need to hurt local Americans. If you didn't like the American policies, or culture, etc, then why live here?? One should respectfully leave before it causes damage to others, specially people who they've lived with and grew up with. The terrorist in California, had worked with the SAME people for a long time!! In fact, some women from that center he was working at, setup his wife's baby shower before their child was born. Now you tell me where the hell does it say in ANY religion that you kill innocent civilians, and here, this bast*ard killed people who were kind to him and had helped him!!!!


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## General General

Viper0011. said:


> I think you are making a mistake in doing a comparison. The reality is, the American people have always welcomed immigrants as American foundations are based on immigration. The Muslims from all over were welcomed to America like everyone else as long as they came in legally.
> 
> Just one example. the Indians started to come in numbers like a decade and a half ago. They have Muslims too. But you tend to see more radicalization in Pakistan? It is a sad fact. Also, I can make this distinction because of my personal background and experiences in life. But to an average American family who doesn't know about Pakistan, Malaysia or Yemen, they just know that these guys were muslims and went to a mosque and all. So they will classify them as Muslims. You guys don't care about your own actions and how they make you look bad. There are so many threads on this forum where Pakistanis, write so much hatred about each other, due to their personal affiliations, family structure, military affiliation, etc. The reader often wonder if you guys can ever be trusted as one nation, or is it always divided. You (average Pakistanis) are responsible for creating a better image for your country with your actions (talking, respecting the law, posts on this forum, etc, etc). No one else will do it for you. Do you see the Indians writing so much crap about their system, leaders, or each other? NO!! Whatever they do, they know they are representing India and India has to come up as a peaceful, fun, colorful country. And they have made the world believe in it through peace and working with everyone (even if the reality may be different).
> 
> Also, on the comparison of the mass shooter vs. the California terrorists....here's an analogy. If your own son beats up your younger son for wrong reasons, you'll get upset as a dad, you'll yell at your older son but it remains inside the family and you deal with it.
> 
> But if a stranger guy from some far away place, came to you and asked you to live with you. And many years down the road, he beat the living out of your younger son, would you tolerate it? HELL NO!! So the way the American public sees this, is from that standpoint, that Muslims today, have more freedom here in the US then what they can get in their home countries. But instead of being appreciating of the fact, they are out there to hurt us? I am not generalizing the entire religion, I am just presenting an American perspective on it.
> 
> Why hurt the US if you LIVE here and are given all the rights like what people from the US enjoy?? If you have issues with the US, her foreign policy, or anything else, and you'll get pissed of and hurt the locals one day, perhaps, this isn't the place for you. Perception is reality and unfortunately, with this example I gave you, everyone else does look bad "One bad apple spoils the whole barrel"!!
> 
> When you go live somewhere else, you adapt the law of the land, try to assimilate in the local culture and accept that land as is. Because the land accepted you first. In this case, the land accepted others and told them they can practice their belief system too. Then why hurt other people living on that land??
> 
> 
> 
> This is the beauty of American freedom actually. They were given safety as someone would've killed them. In fact, I would almost bet, the sad and terrible nature of that event since the Pearl Harbor, was SO grave, that even if you gave them police for protection, I don't think the police officers would've taken the assignment, or done it right.
> 
> What do you expect the US to have done? Locked the women and children into Gitmo for terrorist events that OBL did???? The American nation and principles don't stand for it. But the government is responsible for providing security to residents of the US. So IMO that was a good call to send them out by President Bush. Granted that actually happened the way you are stating it did. Not sure in that time, only one flight was allowed by the US President and it leaked out to you  sitting thousands of miles away....when things like these are usually confidential and secret !!
> 
> On Bush's business connections, I am sure the connections are there and its natural to do business globally in today's world. But I can ALSO assure you, when Bush or anyone else, including myself thinks about doing business with another country, we expect "PROFIT", not terror attacks on our homes !!!!
> 
> Its unbelievable to see the ignorance, arrogance and low quality attitude from people who just LOVE to point all fingers back to the US WITHOUT taking ONE cent's worth of responsibility for the craziness that goes on in Pakistan!!



Vilification and generalisation works both ways. Instead of running blindly and jumping to conclusions with the information that the wife was from Pakistan, the media has done little to notify the gullible public that it was an individual act. She, nor her husband's ancestors, while they were still in Pakistan, were trained by the ISI. Also, if you follow the NAP threads here, you will find that tens of thousands of hate-preachers and extremist ideology promoters (even if non violent) have been arrested over the past couple of years. Because this type of rhetoric eventually leads some people to violence. How many people has the U.S. arrested for hate speech against Muslims? By the number of violent attacks on Muslims currently, it should be common sense to clamp down on enticing hatred on people. 
Coming back to the California shooters, as strange as it may sound, she lived the majority of her life in Saudi Arabia, as for her husband, he was a U.S. citizen by birth. And since we're playing the association game, did anyone know his brother was a decorated U.S. Navy specialist?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Thank you USA for the 16 brand new F16 Block E package appreciate the cooperation

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## Humble Analyst

Viper0011. said:


> Re-read the 3rd and 4th paragraph from the lengthy post you quoted me from. Its the answer to what you are asking above. The Irish weren't outsiders who were given equal rights and respected for being different. They were internal, a part of overall UK, or considered as such. But here, people came here and lived here, and were given all the rights. There was no need to hurt local Americans. If you didn't like the American policies, or culture, etc, then why live here?? One should respectfully leave before it causes damage to others, specially people who they've lived with and grew up with. The terrorist in California, had worked with the SAME people for a long time!! In fact, some women from that center he was working at, setup his wife's baby shower before their child was born. Now you tell me where the hell does it say in ANY religion that you kill innocent civilians, and here, this bast*ard killed people who were kind to him and had helped him!!!!


Who is saying what, who is justifying what? You are asking me to leave thank you very much I will definitely consider it just because you said it! I am a concerned citizen and look at thinks differently and look at the long run what is good for US and the World. The last logic was leave the US when I expressed my views and nothing in that was negative. I am amazed thank you very much for the advice. I prefer Trump he says it clearly without muffled nice phrases.


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## yolo2016

Sharpshooter12 said:


> So you are irreplaceable, we get that. But so are we. Best of luck for solving that Afghan puzzle without us.


Best of luck of having a pakistan worth anything if you don't solve it for yourself. If we leave and you continue with your ways- it will become a hellhole and pour into your country. Careful who you threaten, we don't have them on our borders.



Blue Marlin said:


> do you thin the usa as a whole is stupid enough to let business with pakistn go? even if it is little.
> 
> remember the gunship fiasco. they wanted zulus and they said no. all of a sudden china, turkey and russia stepped in and offered to fill the void. then the usa jumps in and gives an offer to good to refuse. and they take it as well as some from russia and china too. but the later 2 were not worth $900+ million. the usa got the big chunk



You are over playing your assumptions while thinking you are on to some great diplomatic coup or understanding. We are not looking at Pakistan as a business. India has bought 20X more than Pakistan has ever bought from us, and we are just starting with them. They fulfill not only our business needs but our strategic needs vs China. We are not about to ruin that for us. 

You are slowly becoming a proxy state to China. Plus- most of the equipment we give pakistan is paid by our own AID money. If it was not for Afghanistan, we would have left you with severe sanctions for your material support to terrorist groups. Don't forget you harboured Osama Bin Laden and Haqqanis and half dozen others.

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## Jungibaaz

The lawmakers in the US are the biggest, and most costly irony that anyone may have suffered in the history of mankind. 

How it is a nation like yours when inspected at the top can take on the form of such a great jest, yet murderous and damaging at that... is most certainly beyond belief, yet simple in its causes.

It is plain to see, and even obvious if one keeps up with internal politics or happens to observe any of the debates as of late.

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## yolo2016

Humble Analyst said:


> Putting money on Karzai does not pay off, it was better if Pashtoons being the majority been engaged in talks so US could have gotten out earlier, now proxy wars are being played from all sides. This is the problem no one is honest or no one is acting sensibly. The game of OBL is more than it meets the eye as it appears. Now that Iran is in check the World has to go after Pakistan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Just hear Donald Trump's speeches it is all clear. There will be plenty reasons for doing what is the intention. How many people died due terrorism in Pakistan? Guess that does not count han?



Other than the last sentence I'm not sure what you are going on about. And the last sentence is no excuse. It's of your own making. Your own state is responsible for those deaths on its very own citizens, and it STILL continues to play the game of good terrorist vs bad.

Militants not dangerous to Pakistan should not be targeted: Sartaj - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## CHD

yolo2016 said:


> Don't forget you harboured Osama Bin Laden and Haqqanis and half dozen others.


We have no reponsibility for a saudi men who was trained by CIA and was a CIA asset and ofr haqqanis they used to visit white house quite often so both of these groups were your heroes and assets, accept the fact.
PS you are an indian false flagger becuase i can smell it

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## yolo2016

Gamer-X said:


> We have no reponsibility for a saudi men who was trained by CIA and was a CIA asset and ofr haqqanis they used to visit white house quite often so both of these groups were your heroes and assets, accept the fact.
> PS you are an indian false flagger becuase i can smell it



You never have any responsibility- but your words don't matter in the real world. I have no doubt you smell a conspiracy.

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## CHD

yolo2016 said:


> You never have any responsibility- but your words don't matter in the real world. I have no doubt you smell a conspiracy.


yes it is a conspiracy

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think the congress folks can smoke weed from their arses, but in end what counts is that the militaries of both nation understand the big picture

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## MilSpec

Bratva said:


> No wonder, if this is the level of intellect shown b US policy makers, Their foreign policies constantly backfires w.r.t fighting a war against terrorism.


wait, you need f16 blk52+ with Aim120c5's for fighting terrorists. Sounds legit.

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## Chika_Pika

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.


But all points are correct

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## yolo2016

Gamer-X said:


> yes it is a conspiracy



Those are the Afghan Mujahidin group, and not the Taliban. Taliban was created by the ISI and military in 90's, and they ruled from 96-2001 in Afghanistan. Some internet guy put that image up and you fell for it. You don't even know your history around your country. Shameful.

And the senator posed with a moderate FSA a long while ago. That group has changed, its members have too. That does not mean he promotes terrorists. Why do you pakistani show us old pictures and think you are excused of supporting most of these groups below?

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## Chika_Pika

Pakistani Exile said:


> How about the US stop selling weapons to the Saudis? You know the actual ones who's ideology was exported to Pakistan thanks to US approval for fighting the soviets, the same ideology that flew planes in to the twin towers. The same ideology that founded Al qaeda. The same ideology that ISIS takes its roots from. The same ideology that this woman was radicalised with.
> 
> Any chance of stopping weapons sales to the Saudis ? Or you just love their money?


Ideology don't kill people, it's men(terrorists) who kill people

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## Tipu7

yolo2016 said:


> Taliban was created by the ISI and military in 90's


Hi

Were you part of their opening ceremony?

"Afghan Mujahideen" you said......

Who were they? Aren't most of Taliban were part of "Afghan resistance" against Soviets....?



MilSpec said:


> wait, you need f16 blk52+ with Aim120c5's for fighting terrorists. Sounds legit.


It's For terrorists supporters and funders.....

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## MilSpec

Tipu7 said:


> It's For terrorists supporters and funders.....


Wouldn't that count as fratricide?

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## mingle

Blue Marlin said:


> do you thin the usa as a whole is stupid enough to let business with pakistn go? even if it is little.
> 
> remember the gunship fiasco. they wanted zulus and they said no. all of a sudden china, turkey and russia stepped in and offered to fill the void. then the usa jumps in and gives an offer to good to refuse. and they take it as well as some from russia and china too. but they were not worth $900+ million





Viper0011. said:


> Really?? You truly think the largest economy on the globe is REALLY worried about a few hundred jobs and EIGHT jets??
> 
> And you think we have no national pride or respect for our country? You need to wake up and look around. We've been in Afghanistan for over a decade and a half due to our national pride. And it has cost us trillions. Not sure how a billion dollar worth of deal is such a big deal!!
> 
> The US has respected Pakistan as a partner and has worked with her for decades. But if there will be attacks on us, trust me, even a 1000 jobs won't matter!!


Bankrupt Broke and taters US cant do anything my friend fangs r nomore there .this deal will go through no matter what lawmaker says .


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## yolo2016

Tipu7 said:


> Hi
> 
> Were you part of their opening ceremony?
> 
> "Afghan Mujahideen" you said......
> 
> Who were they? Aren't most of Taliban were part of "Afghan resistance" against Soviets....?



I can read, do research or I should say I'm free to without having to be present at the ceremony. Are you not allowed to in pakistan? Do pakistani only speak to history they have been present to witness? All you have to search in Google is the term when was the taliban created.

Here your very own general says it too. ISI cultivated Taliban to counter Indian action against Pakistan: Musharraf - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Being a part of a resistance does not make those sitting in the image shown as Taliban. The image says the were Taliban. That claim is false. The taliban ideology was quite different than the Afghan resistance.


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## Pulsar

> The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan –* each worth an estimated $165 million *– and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.
> 
> Source: US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan


What? Each F-16 costs $165 million?  That's complete and unadulterated rubbish!

The cost of an F-16 today is $40-50 million depending on which block. Even the F-35s cost approx $100-120 million a pop.


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## Viper0011.

Pulsar said:


> What? Each F-16 costs $165 million?  That's complete and unadulterated rubbish!
> 
> The cost of an F-16 today is $40-50 million depending on which block. Even the F-35s cost approx $100-120 million a pop.



These are advanced F-16's, call them F-16's "P" if you will, like the block 60, with a couple of newer things that just came out. Plus support, maintenance and other items, including US defense contractors.



mingle said:


> Bankrupt Broke and taters US cant do anything my friend fangs r nomore there .this deal will go through no matter what lawmaker says .



Its people like your mentality who have no sense for anything international. If the sales goes through, it would primarily be because of NS + RS's visit and some back channels work that will take place to ensure that Pakistan is serious about eliminating all terrorists including the Haqani's. Otherwise, forget about the F-16's. You won't get a Toyota Corolla if the US made one .

The Republicans run the show in Congress and if you think what's coming out of their mouths is a joke, you are kidding yourself. People like you, that go to places like the US and Canada and make these countries realize that bringing someone like you, was a mistake. From your post, your mentality is pretty damn clear to me.

By the way, I don't know what you know about the US, but her market is at the highest in history. The US Fed increased the interest rates today. Meaning the system is super healthy. More hikes to come shortly

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## Umair Nawaz

yolo2016 said:


> So you mean to say that Indians RAW influences us about Haqqani network and other thriving terror groups that Pakistan supports?. That it is a pipe dream that we(our intelligence) found you to support those terror groups who kill our soldiers, and others? Always with the reflexive "he did it gene" on everything?
> 
> 
> Fair enough, you say we have low intellect. Then why do you send General Sharif to our country begging for more aid? You got super duper J17 you could buy from China or J 31! we are totally replaceable.
> 
> 
> So U.S sends terrorists into India from pakistan and was behind 26/11? The lies the problem in the above scenario


Do u know, u still dont have a shred of evidence which tells we support anyone in afghanistan.

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## HAIDER

When US sell the tech , they know when to turn off switch. But its fact India lobby work against Pak during any defence deal. It US govt make final decision and ignore.


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## fatman17

Blue Marlin said:


> *US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan – each worth an estimated $165 million – and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.*
> 
> 
> US lawmakers on Wednesday used very strong language to oppose the sale of armament to Pakistan, arguing it cannot be trusted because of its continued support for terrorism.
> 
> One lawmaker called it a “snitch” in the context of why the US didn’t inform Pakistan before the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad in May 2011.
> 
> Another member called Pakistan a “Benedict Arnold” ally, referencing an American general who switched sides during the War of Independence to join the British.
> 
> They were at a hearing of the US House of Representatives’ foreign affairs committee called to review counter-terrorism ties with Pakistan in the light of the San Bernardino shootings. Tashfeen Malik and her husband Syed Rizwan Farook, both of Pakistani origin, shot and killed 14 people in the attack.
> 
> “I doubt that anyone who follows Pakistan closely was surprised to learn that one of the San Bernardino attackers – Tashfeen Malik – studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message,” committee chairman Ed Royce said in his opening remarks.
> 
> Announcing the hearing last week, the committee said it would look at US aid to Pakistan – $30 billion since September 11, 2001, according to a lawmaker.
> 
> The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan – each worth an estimated $165 million – and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.
> 
> Ted Poe, a Republican member of the House of Representatives, opposed the sale at the hearing, saying Pakistan had scrambled its F-16s after the Abbottabad raid.
> 
> A raid, Poe said, about which the US did not give Pakistan an advance warning as they would “snitch us off and Osama bin Laden would have left”.
> 
> “We need to be very concerned about providing armaments for Pakistan who seems to play all the sides,” he added.
> 
> Dana Rohrabacher, another Republican member of the House used Benedict Arnold to portray Pakistan as an untrustworthy ally completely undeserving of American aid.
> 
> “The clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers and they should,” he said, “because…we are giving people money who have continually involved themselves in acts harmful” to the US.
> 
> The lawmakers expressed concern about Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, which is expected to become the world’s third largest by 2025, according to a recent study.
> 
> US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan | world | Hindustan Times



F16 dosnt cost 165 mill per copy.


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## yolo2016

Umair Nawaz said:


> Do u know, u still dont have a shred of evidence which tells we support anyone in afghanistan.



All over the internet you will hear Musharraf in his own words confessing to it.

ISI cultivated Taliban to counter Indian action against Pakistan: Musharraf - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Musharraf’s confession of Kashmir terror - The Express Tribune


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## Umair Nawaz

Viper0011. said:


> Why do you think they bought EFT's???? They have heard the message loud and clear.
> 
> But the topic isn't about KSA, nor was one of the shooters radicalized there. That took place elsewhere. Who would you like to bring into the picture in the next post to divert the attention?


Actually, U dont know it seems. The woman was born n raised in Saudia Arabia. She later on came here for advance studies. The University where she studied had only one seat for foreign based Pakistanis n She got that. She was radicalized much before. Just 2-3 years in university arnt good enough to radicalize someone to this extent.

Plus how about her husband? He was radicalized man himself since quit some time. Born and raised in yr country, and according to his Hispanic friend, he had brought weapons from him in 2011 too to conduct shootings before. 

So according to yr logic, her husband whom she had married in june 2014 had also been radicalized by her since then? In the same context She can also be radicalized by her husband too!

But then again u cant radicalize someone this fast to such an extent in just 1.5 years. Its better sometimes to use yr head too.

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## Osiris

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The whole policy of supporting Taliban was fundamentally wrong. If Pakistan Army and/or ISI knew where Bin Laden was living it was treason. Saudi Arabia-born Tashfeen Malik was radicalized in Saudi Arabia. American-born husband Syed Rizwan Farook attacked because he had arguments with anti-Muslim person in San Bernardino nothing directly relating to Pakistan. Syed Rizwan Farook graduated from California State University, San Bernardino does that mean that University must be suspect ? Tashfeen Malik studied at Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan on the seat reserved for Overseas Pakistanis and she rarely interacted with the University staff and other students. If you want to blame Bahauddin Zakariya University than equally blame California State University.



Correction Tashfeen Malik was born in Pakistan and radicalized in Pakistan, at Al-huda seminary in Multan, where she enrolled in Quranic studies.

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## Umair Nawaz

yolo2016 said:


> All over the internet you will hear Musharraf in his own words confessing to it.
> 
> ISI cultivated Taliban to counter Indian action against Pakistan: Musharraf - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Musharraf’s confession of Kashmir terror - The Express Tribune


Im a follower of Musharaf myself, these r from his interviews, where he actually said that after the soviat invasion of Afghanistan we felt threaten and from there on we along with american cia cultivated them. Then after the American invasion we again used our older links to counter the indian influence there because americans were under an obligation not to allow indians a space there which can be used against us when signing the deal for NATO supplies n logistics with us. 

We were left with no choice but to counter their influence. thats the gist of these two posts that yr sharing. And since i follow his interviews and himself i have seen him saying this and has even clarified that guardian claim that '' while he was interviewed by them he said that they had cultivated taliban'' as reported by the sources u shared.

below is the interview where he explained all this to a indian news channel.










Now as far as im aware of, yr asking about Haqani network. Which is a fraction of afghan taliban. What concrete proof do u yourself have about us supporting them?

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## Sipahi

yolo2016 said:


> I can read, do research or I should say I'm free to without having to be present at the ceremony. Are you not allowed to in pakistan? Do pakistani only speak to history they have been present to witness? All you have to search in Google is the term when was the taliban created.
> 
> Here your very own general says it too. ISI cultivated Taliban to counter Indian action against Pakistan: Musharraf - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Being a part of a resistance does not make those sitting in the image shown as Taliban. The image says the were Taliban. That claim is false. The taliban ideology was quite different than the Afghan resistance.



I Think everyone out there taking the responsibility of Taliban, not only ours but yours too.

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## yolo2016

Umair Nawaz said:


> Im a follower of Musharaf myself, these r from his interviews, where he actually said that after the soviat invasion of Afghanistan we felt threaten and from there on we along with american cia cultivated them. Then after the American invasion we again used our older links to counter the indian influence there because americans were under an obligation not to allow indians a space there which can be used against us when signing the deal for NATO supplies n logistics with us.
> 
> We were left with no choice but to counter their influence. thats the gist of these two posts that yr sharing. And since i follow his interviews and himself i have seen him saying this and has even clarified that guardian claim that '' while he was interviewed by them he said that they had cultivated taliban'' as reported by the sources u shared.
> 
> below is the interview where he explained all this to a indian news channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now as far as im aware of, yr asking about Haqani network. Which is a fraction of afghan taliban. What concrete proof do u yourself have about us supporting them?



So you agree you use terrorism as tactic against other nations and as Musharraf confessed.. Good.

You always left with a choice, and that choice was to not be supportive of terrorists. Repercussions of not doing so resulted in an implosion into Pakistan. All of this got you what?- Notoriety as a terrorist supporting nation, and you lost on both objectives! ( Afghan and Kashmir)

We have heard for years repeatedly high ranking US officials blaming Pakistan for supporting Haqqani network.

US can prove Pakistan’s ties with Haqqanis - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
US slams Pakistan for 'supporting' Haqqani - Al Jazeera English
US finds action against Haqqani network inadequate - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
U.S. says Pakistan's ISI supported Kabul embassy attack| Reuters
Pakistan backed attacks on American targets, U.S. says - The Washington Post
U.S. Threatens to Withhold Pakistan Aid - WSJ



mshahid said:


> I Think everyone out there taking the responsibility of Taliban, not only ours but yours too.



LOL seems you don't understand American nuance or the language. She is talking about Afghan Mujahideen we created and some of these radical islamist got in there too. She speaking of radical Islam and how we should have be aware f it. You forget USSR was at your door step- you wanted us to help and fund the resistance too.

But for you it is never the muslims who do this, NO NO- infact per you- you are a bunch of such weak minded people where if with america tells you to kill - you will. This why Trump says we need to be wary of muslims like you. Always with the excuse making and blaming on others

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## RealNapster

Blue Marlin said:


> *US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan – each worth an estimated $165 million – and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.*
> 
> 
> US lawmakers on Wednesday used very strong language to oppose the sale of armament to Pakistan, arguing it cannot be trusted because of its continued support for terrorism.
> 
> One lawmaker called it a “snitch” in the context of why the US didn’t inform Pakistan before the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad in May 2011.
> 
> Another member called Pakistan a “Benedict Arnold” ally, referencing an American general who switched sides during the War of Independence to join the British.
> 
> They were at a hearing of the US House of Representatives’ foreign affairs committee called to review counter-terrorism ties with Pakistan in the light of the San Bernardino shootings. Tashfeen Malik and her husband Syed Rizwan Farook, both of Pakistani origin, shot and killed 14 people in the attack.
> 
> “I doubt that anyone who follows Pakistan closely was surprised to learn that one of the San Bernardino attackers – Tashfeen Malik – studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message,” committee chairman Ed Royce said in his opening remarks.
> 
> Announcing the hearing last week, the committee said it would look at US aid to Pakistan – $30 billion since September 11, 2001, according to a lawmaker.
> 
> The Obama administration proposes to sell eight new F-16 jets to Pakistan – each worth an estimated $165 million – and is due to formally notify Congress about it any day now.
> 
> Ted Poe, a Republican member of the House of Representatives, opposed the sale at the hearing, saying Pakistan had scrambled its F-16s after the Abbottabad raid.
> 
> A raid, Poe said, about which the US did not give Pakistan an advance warning as they would “snitch us off and Osama bin Laden would have left”.
> 
> “We need to be very concerned about providing armaments for Pakistan who seems to play all the sides,” he added.
> 
> Dana Rohrabacher, another Republican member of the House used Benedict Arnold to portray Pakistan as an untrustworthy ally completely undeserving of American aid.
> 
> “The clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers and they should,” he said, “because…we are giving people money who have continually involved themselves in acts harmful” to the US.
> 
> The lawmakers expressed concern about Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, which is expected to become the world’s third largest by 2025, according to a recent study.
> 
> US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan | world | Hindustan Times








kal karay so aaj, aaj karay so abhi

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## Sipahi

yolo2016 said:


> So you agree you use terrorism as tactic against other nations and as Musharraf confessed.. Good.
> 
> You always left with a choice, and that choice was to not be supportive of terrorists. Repercussions of not doing so resulted in an implosion into Pakistan. All of this got you what?- Notoriety as a terrorist supporting nation, and you lost on both objectives! ( Afghan and Kashmir)
> 
> We have heard for years repeatedly high ranking US officials blaming Pakistan for supporting Haqqani network.
> 
> US can prove Pakistan’s ties with Haqqanis - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> US slams Pakistan for 'supporting' Haqqani - Al Jazeera English
> US finds action against Haqqani network inadequate - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> U.S. says Pakistan's ISI supported Kabul embassy attack| Reuters
> Pakistan backed attacks on American targets, U.S. says - The Washington Post
> U.S. Threatens to Withhold Pakistan Aid - WSJ
> 
> 
> 
> LOL seems you don't understand American nuance or the language. She is talking about Afghan Mujahideen we created and some of these radical islamist got in there too. She speaking of radical Islam and how we should have be aware f it. You forget USSR was at your door step- you wanted us to help and fund the resistance too.
> 
> But for you it is never the muslims who do this, NO NO- infact per you- you are a bunch of such weak minded people where if with america tells you to kill - you will. This why Trump says we need to be wary of muslims like you. Always with the excuse making and blaming on others



Afghan Mujaheddin re branded themselves as Taliban, US funded them, train them, ISI helped them... rest is useless.


----------



## yolo2016

mshahid said:


> Afghan Mujaheddin re branded themselves as Taliban, US funded them, train them, ISI helped them... rest is useless.



Nope. US was already out of there and in fact had sanctions imposed on Pakistan when ISI created the Taliban. You Pakistanis need to seriously know more about your history.


----------



## Sipahi

yolo2016 said:


> Nope. US was already out of there and in fact had sanctions imposed on Pakistan when ISI created the Taliban. You Pakistanis need to seriously know more about your history.



Yes, you invited all the mess of the world on our door step and left it. What your leadership was thinking , we will buy them a ticket for home ?????

Copied from @Irfan Baloch 

The Afghans from Northern Alliance by far have been the most successful in dealing with the Americans... they got nothing to show from their part. squandered billions of dollars of American dollars right in front of their faces and then showed the audacity to criticize the apologetic Americans as well as if they did some favor to Americans by accepting their money.

now I don't advocate deceit and free loading but in a way I wonder if it serves Americans best they love their partners who screw them. Pakistanis on the other side before and after Afghan war and WoT have been worse off, lost part of the country, lost tens of thousands of lives, suffered billions of losses and also got humiliated, insulted, dismissed and mocked by the Yanks and we (mostly) got our own leadership to blame.


----------



## wiseone2

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.



India has nothing to do with anti-Pakistan mood in Congress



yolo2016 said:


> Nope. US was already out of there and in fact had sanctions imposed on Pakistan when ISI created the Taliban. You Pakistanis need to seriously know more about your history.



facts do not count in fantasy world of the pakistanis especially their establishment



mshahid said:


> Afghan Mujaheddin re branded themselves as Taliban, US funded them, train them, ISI helped them... rest is useless.





mshahid said:


> Afghan Mujaheddin re branded themselves as Taliban, US funded them, train them, ISI helped them... rest is useless.



when was the Taliban created ? When did America cut off aid to Pakistan impose sanctions ?


----------



## yolo2016

mshahid said:


> Yes, you invited all the mess of the world on our door step and left it. What your leadership was thinking , we will buy them a ticket for home ?????
> 
> Copied from @Irfan Baloch
> 
> The Afghans from Northern Alliance by far have been the most successful in dealing with the Americans... they got nothing to show from their part. squandered billions of dollars of American dollars right in front of their faces and then showed the audacity to criticize the apologetic Americans as well as if they did some favor to Americans by accepting their money.
> 
> now I don't advocate deceit and free loading but in a way I wonder if it serves Americans best they love their partners who screw them. Pakistanis on the other side before and after Afghan war and WoT have been worse off, lost part of the country, lost tens of thousands of lives, suffered billions of losses and also got humiliated, insulted, dismissed and mocked by the Yanks and we (mostly) got our own leadership to blame.



You are free to create your version of history and Pakistanis are known for being prone to conspiracies . Rest of the world knows that Pakistan's problem is the result of a continued support of "good terrorist" as a foreign policy tool.


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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> India has nothing to do with anti-Pakistan mood in Congress
> 
> 
> 
> facts do not count in fantasy world of the pakistanis especially their establishment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when was the Taliban created ? When did America cut off aid to Pakistan impose sanctions ?



Taliban In 1991, sanctions activated in 1990

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## Umair Nawaz

yolo2016 said:


> *So you agree you use terrorism as tactic against other nations and as Musharraf confessed.. Good.*
> 
> You always left with a choice, and that choice was to not be supportive of terrorists. Repercussions of not doing so resulted in an implosion into Pakistan. All of this got you what?- Notoriety as a terrorist supporting nation, and you lost on both objectives! ( Afghan and Kashmir)
> 
> We have heard for years repeatedly high ranking US officials blaming Pakistan for supporting Haqqani network.
> 
> US can prove Pakistan’s ties with Haqqanis - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> US slams Pakistan for 'supporting' Haqqani - Al Jazeera English
> US finds action against Haqqani network inadequate - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> U.S. says Pakistan's ISI supported Kabul embassy attack| Reuters
> Pakistan backed attacks on American targets, U.S. says - The Washington Post
> U.S. Threatens to Withhold Pakistan Aid - WSJ
> 
> 
> 
> ]


LOL cut this drama would u.... Yr own country n its unsikable ally Israel supports terrorism even ore that what we have supported ever. How do u think TTP and LeJ came into existence? Who was Raymond Davis? Yr own Negro Ponte had written a book saying how CIA had planted its own white spies into the Pakistan's west and in Afghanistan to creat such organizations. Even Daesh is funded and armed by yr own government openly these days. Even in Pakistan the Daesh people arrested have acknowledged that. fact. After Been Introgated By ISI, ISIS Leader Admits We Are Being Funded By The Obama Administration

And now yr trying to build an alliance to fight against them just as a show off since Russia has came into the game, while u just an year ago didnt even wanted to fight them? Even Pakistan has twice rejected yr offer to join that alliance now. Since we have seen u guys and yr seriousness in treating yr own so called allies and then backstabbing them yrselves, and when they give u a doze of yr owm medicine then u start bitching that they r those who play double games etc

Coming from a background where yr taught in yr universities and schools that yr the greatest nation and a world champ on freedoms n rights etc........while not even bothering to know that if that claim is acknowledged worldwide too or it is yr own self praise thingy.... Then going to other countries to invade them and destroy them in the name of same so called ''guaranteeing freedom n liberty'' slogans etc etc which yr public buys. And when u face their resistance and their spirits which drive their will to fight against foreign occupiers invading their homelands u call them terrorists. Well u may call those people terrorists but in reality for their own people and for the people of that region they are called freedom fighters, whether u like it or not thats how it is. Its like Nazis calling the partisans of WW2 terrorists.

Because thats true that For Nazis the partisans were terrorists, same way for u these people of Afghanistan, those taliban r terrorists or for Israel the Hamas or Hizbullah r terrorists. They arnt like Daesh where foreigners r fighting for them, the taliban r only Afghans or the pashtoons from the border areas of Pakistan who are sympathetic to their cause because they have family relations with those people. This is the ground situation here. Now dont expect us to go against our own people if u cant even abide by yr commitment in the first place. BTW will America go against the bulk of its citizens because Pakistan says so? Certainly not.

So stop playing holly.......And be a moral judge of other when yr worst in all of humanity, today u decide who becomes Nuke power or not and who can become a NSG member or not.......While yr the ones who have used the atom bombs not ones but twice on others not Russia, China and certainly not Pakistan.

The above was the response to the bold part for rest; If u yrself wont abide by yr commitments and give space to others in our backyard that too to those which r our enemies then we also ave options buddy! Pakistan isnt some Middle Eastern Country like Syria or Iraq, we have been ruling this region on our own since the entire good part of last century. We arnt some Tom Dick Harry type country which can be rolled over. So if u come here by yourself and ask us to help yrself and then dont abide by the obligations u had with us in order to get transit routes and become part of this fight as yr ally, while if that wasnt enough u have give too much space in our backyard to our enemies who use those lands against us as well as u sell them weapons too which will be used against us as well in future, then u will PAY A PRIZE!

Now if u arm my enemy and befriend them so much that u have became the largest weapons exporter to them then dont forget we will also not stay quit. We will also take necessary steps to safe guard our national security because to us priority is our National security and our national interests not yrs same like for u its not important what is our interest or our national security. Nobody is yr slave here. 

U shouldnt have came in this region and got yrself in such a position in this first place, where u had to give space to our enemy and get wrath of yr own ally. Our alliance would have took place if u had not come here. So we r not the ones to blame here because we didnt started it.

Still if u have concrete proof about this Haqqani network then ask yr government to present it. Case closed.

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## Sipahi

yolo2016 said:


> You are free to create your version of history and Pakistanis are known for being prone to conspiracies . Rest of the world knows that Pakistan's problem is the result of a continued support of "good terrorist" as a foreign policy tool.



That's what I am saying, first you call all the extremist of the world in Afghanistan to wage a war on Russia, once Russia retract and lost half of the country and influence, you left just like that ... leaving all the terrorists on our door step ??

What we supposed to do with those 300 thousand + extremists ??? Its your very own medicine which is not curing you anymore


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## yolo2016

Umair Nawaz said:


> LOL cut this drama would u.... Yr own country n its unsikable ally Israel supports terrorism even ore that what we have supported ever. How do u think TTP and LeJ came into existence? Who was Raymond Davis? Yr own Negro Ponte had written a book saying how CIA had planted its own white spies into the Pakistan's west and in Afghanistan to creat such organizations. Even Daesh is funded and armed by yr own government openly these days. Even in Pakistan the Daesh people arrested have acknowledged that. fact. After Been Introgated By ISI, ISIS Leader Admits We Are Being Funded By The Obama Administration
> 
> And now yr trying to build an alliance to fight against them just as a show off since Russia has came into the game, while u just an year ago didnt even wanted to fight them? Even Pakistan has twice rejected yr offer to join that alliance now. Since we have seen u guys and yr seriousness in treating yr own so called allies and then backstabbing them yrselves, and when they give u a doze of yr owm medicine then u start bitching that they r those who play double games etc
> 
> Coming from a background where yr taught in yr universities and schools that yr the greatest nation and a world champ on freedoms n rights etc........while not even bothering to know that if that claim is acknowledged worldwide too or it is yr own self praise thingy.... Then going to other countries to invade them and destroy them in the name of same so called ''guaranteeing freedom n liberty'' slogans etc etc which yr public buys. And when u face their resistance and their spirits which drive their will to fight against foreign occupiers invading their homelands u call them terrorists. Well u may call those people terrorists but in reality for their own people and for the people of that region they are called freedom fighters, whether u like it or not thats how it is. Its like Nazis calling the partisans of WW2 terrorists.
> 
> Because thats true that For Nazis the partisans were terrorists, same way for u these people of Afghanistan, those taliban r terrorists or for Israel the Hamas or Hizbullah r terrorists. They arnt like Daesh where foreigners r fighting for them, the taliban r only Afghans or the pashtoons from the border areas of Pakistan who are sympathetic to their cause because they have family relations with those people. This is the ground situation here. Now dont expect us to go against our own people if u cant even abide by yr commitment in the first place. BTW will America go against the bulk of its citizens because Pakistan says so? Certainly not.
> 
> So stop playing holly.......And be a moral judge of other when yr worst in all of humanity, today u decide who becomes Nuke power or not and who can become a NSG member or not.......While yr the ones who have used the atom bombs not ones but twice on others not Russia, China and certainly not Pakistan.
> 
> The above was the response to the bold part for rest; If u yrself wont abide by yr commitments and give space to others in our backyard that too to those which r our enemies then we also ave options buddy! Pakistan isnt some Middle Eastern Country like Syria or Iraq, we have been ruling this region on our own since the entire good part of last century. We arnt some Tom Dick Harry type country which can be rolled over. So if u come here by yourself and ask us to help yrself and then dont abide by the obligations u had with us in order to get transit routes and become part of this fight as yr ally, while if that wasnt enough u have give too much space in our backyard to our enemies who use those lands against us as well as u sell them weapons too which will be used against us as well in future, then u will PAY A PRIZE!
> 
> Now if u arm my enemy and befriend them so much that u have became the largest weapons exporter to them then dont forget we will also not stay quit. We will also take necessary steps to safe guard our national security because to us priority is our National security and our national interests not yrs same like for u its not important what is our interest or our national security. Nobody is yr slave here.
> 
> U shouldnt have came in this region and got yrself in such a position in this first place, where u had to give space to our enemy and get wrath of yr own ally. Our alliance would have took place if u had not come here. So we r not the ones to blame here because we didnt started it.
> 
> Still if u have concrete proof about this Haqqani network then ask yr government to present it. Case closed.



You really did not have to write 5 paragraphs of gibberish to tell me in every paragraph that this all a conspiracy against you guys. We've established that you pakistanis are uniquely prone to blaming everyone else and to always follow some conspiracy. This is the best example I can give you. If 9 out 10 people say you are supporting training terrorists and 1 out 10 say it is the Ameriki doing it. You will choose that 1 person out 10. The funny part of it is that your own Generals, defense minister, politicians confess to it openly to following 'good terrorist' policy



mshahid said:


> That's what I am saying, first you call all the extremist of the world in Afghanistan to wage a war on Russia, once Russia retract and lost half of the country and influence, you left just like that ... leaving all the terrorists on our door step ??
> 
> What we supposed to do with those 300 thousand + extremists ??? Its your very own medicine which is not curing you anymore



You seem to miss another historical point. we did not call anyone, we asked you to create a resistance. You were afraid of USSR on your borders, then you called upon your fellow muslims - we funded you. 

Then you went on create more terrorist groups after that war(taliban), employed wahhabis among them- all in the name of perceived Indian presence. 

Then as a country you opened up radicals madarasa's with Saudi money, changed your constitution (remember ZIa) to go towards accepting that radical version of Islam. Then you created terror groups to attack kashmir and continue to use terrorism as foreign policy tool. 

You sir, have to look at you own military and ISI for creating this cluster you know what... blaming americans from 1985 only works among the excuse making crowd within Pakistan.



abdulbarijan said:


> _*“We are the United States of Amnesia (USA), we learn nothing because we remember nothing.” -Gore Vidal*_
> ​



We wish we had been more like Pakistan and emulated it's successful status, and reputation instead. Thanks for quoting us.

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## Sipahi

yolo2016 said:


> You really did not have to write 5 paragraphs of gibberish to tell me in every paragraph that this all a conspiracy against you guys. We've established that you pakistanis are uniquely prone to blaming everyone else and to always follow some conspiracy. This is the best example I can give you. If 9 out 10 people say you are supporting training terrorists and 1 out 10 say it is the Ameriki doing it. You will choose that 1 person out 10. The funny part of it is that your own Generals, defense minister, politicians confess to it openly to following 'good terrorist' policy
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to miss another historical point. we did not call anyone, we asked you to create a resistance. You were afraid of USSR on your borders, then you called upon your fellow muslims - we funded you.
> 
> Then you went on create more terrorist groups after that war(taliban), employed wahhabis among them- all in the name of perceived Indian presence.
> 
> Then as a country you opened up radicals madarasa's with Saudi money, changed your constitution (remember ZIa) to go towards accepting that radical version of Islam. Then you created terror groups to attack kashmir and continue to use terrorism as foreign policy tool.
> 
> You sir, have to look at you own military and ISI for creating this cluster you know what... blaming americans from 1985 only works among the excuse making crowd within Pakistan.



The Question was who started and who funded ?

US was pioneer and according to President Ronald they were moral equivalent of America;s founding fathers.


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## Hyperion

Try to learn how the US operates. One word. Lobbying. If you can somehow understand the breadth and depth of that single word, and you are ready to throw insane amount of money at it, you can have the American Senate recite "The Kalma" everyday.

So nothing to do with US policy makers, yet everything to do with the Indian Lobby.



Bratva said:


> No wonder, if this is the level of intellect shown b US policy makers, Their foreign policies constantly backfires w.r.t fighting a war against terrorism.


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## yolo2016

abdulbarijan said:


> I actually deleted my response to this thread because It was going down the drain anyways ... but since you did quote me ... I suppose I should do this...
> 
> From what I see in your responses the general belief system of yours is that the US never did anything wrong ... it was ALL Pakistan ... yet you admit to Funding the Mujahideen ... You forget you were the ones arming them too ... I guess you also forgot that little piece of foreign policy that was originally developed by the NSA of Carter who served from 77-81 and this was then translated in to the "Regan doctrine" as we know it ... and ofcourse you never mention it or are oblivious of it ... maybe that's why you point fingers at the alleged Pakistani foreign policy ... yet for some reason forget to mention the documented foreign policy of the US towards the end of the cold war ... This is no conspiracy its historical documented facts ... But thank you for proving that quotation that I quoted previously ... i.e
> 
> 
> _*“We are the United States of Amnesia (USA), we learn nothing because we remember nothing.”-Gore Vidal*_



Congrats on disowning your own faults by going now back to 1977. lol - You guys are a riot.

"look ameriki you funded an Ak47 and helped USSR from taking over us too in 85, and everything we as pakistan have done since then is your fault."


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## CHD

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1017946398270310


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## Umair Nawaz

yolo2016 said:


> You really did not have to write 5 paragraphs of gibberish to tell me in every paragraph that this all a conspiracy against you guys. We've established that you pakistanis are uniquely prone to blaming everyone else and to always follow some conspiracy. This is the best example I can give you. If 9 out 10 people say you are supporting training terrorists and 1 out 10 say it is the Ameriki doing it. You will choose that 1 person out 10. The funny part of it is that your own Generals, defense minister, politicians confess to it openly to following 'good terrorist' policy
> 
> 
> 
> .


LOL is this u could get from by post?
By the same pretext we can also say that ''we have also established u Americans as uniquely prone to blaming everyone else and to always follow conspiracies.'' Whether its yr defeat in Afghanistan to nukes to WOT.

And about conspiracies check out what yr own Country.

Malaysian Missing plane could have been hijacked to Pakistan: US media


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## yolo2016

Umair Nawaz said:


> LOL is this u could get from by post?
> By the same pretext we can also say that ''we have also established u Americans as uniquely prone to blaming everyone else and to always follow conspiracies.'' Whether its yr defeat in Afghanistan to nukes to WOT.
> 
> And about conspiracies check out what yr own Country.
> 
> Malaysian Missing plane could have been hijacked to Pakistan: US media



There is something call percentages, the percentage of your population that thinks like you vs. the percentage of our population that paid attention to that one article is vastly different. We don't need a conspiracy when your own Generals, politicians have confessed to use terrorism as a foreign policy tool. Confessed to supporting and training terror groups. It is you have that has the worldwide reputation of a terror supporting country, now the U.S. It your neighbours that blame you for hosting and supporting terror groups , not ours. It is you that have the these below- not us .

Who is buying your message of blaming it on others outside of Pakistan? No one...

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## elitepilot09

Why has no one mentioned that its estimated to be *$165 million* each?? Thats a crazy high amount for an F-16.... somethings up.

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## GURU DUTT

so after all that freedom wars for afghanies from evil USSR & the war against terror in afghanistan USA is finally coming to its sences and have started to call of the "most important non NATO ally" to "snitch" should have happened just after 9/11 but anyway its better to be late than to be never ... good luck to all sane people like Ted Poe & Dana Rohrabacher truth is on your side and indians support your just cause


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## Umair Nawaz

yolo2016 said:


> There is something call percentages, the percentage of your population that thinks like you vs. the percentage of our population that paid attention to that one article is vastly different. We don't need a conspiracy when your own Generals, politicians have confessed to use terrorism as a foreign policy tool. Confessed to supporting and training terror groups. It is you have that has the worldwide reputation of a terror supporting country, now the U.S. It your neighbours that blame you for hosting and supporting terror groups , not ours. It is you that have the these below- not us .
> 
> Who is buying your message of blaming it on others outside of Pakistan? No one...


Do u know yr own USAF retired General had also said the same abt this?

And talk abt conspiracies, its not our universities where they have societies which propagate conspiracies either against zionists, new world order etc etc. In pakistan we dont have countless blogs, websites who propagate that. Rather its our people who quote these sources from yr own country abt conspiracies. From banking system to New world order etc etc.

And talk abt percentage ehh.


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## Capt.Popeye

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.




LOLLL, @Irfan Baloch ; there is nothing that India can do that Tashfeen Malik and Syed Rizwan Farook did not do........
Now have fun........

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## Bratva

MilSpec said:


> wait, you need f16 blk52+ with Aim120c5's for fighting terrorists. Sounds legit.



Remind me again how Abu musab al zarqawi was killed in Iraq ?

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## rockstar08

165 Million $ a pop ? 
does the writer mistakenly add 1 in to 65 , or he replace 16 with 35

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## Areesh

MilSpec said:


> Wouldn't that count as fratricide?



No that would call as anti terror operation. We have no Rashtria Rifles or BSF around to call it a fratricide.


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## TheNoob

@yolo2016 
you dont sound very american, eh? :d


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## Blue Marlin

fatman17 said:


> F16 dosnt cost 165 mill per copy.


indian media think it does. if you have a problem speak to the editors


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## I S I

WTF 165 million dollar a piece? Is it powered by a nuclear reactor?


Blue Marlin said:


> indian media think it does. if you have a problem speak to the editors


Indian media thinks that Bharat has become a Super Power. Doesn't mean it is one.


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## MadDog

yolo2016 said:


> You make no sense. U.S does not determine pakistan or india's policy towards each other. If anything, we are victims of terrorism from pakistan too. Obama is a fool for selling weapons or giving aid to Pakistan. But i also see why he does- we need to pay off pakistan for the supply route.



Economic Aid ? When did Gen Raheel Sharif asked for it, do you know Pak's reserves are $20 Billion, GDP (nominal) $271 Billion, GDP (PPP): $930 Billion, its included in middle income countries, No leader from Pak asked for economic assistance. Infact India has been the largest recipient of US aid according to TimesOfIndia. 

If you are talking about Coalition Support Fund, then my friend, As our allies in war on terror Americans have used our military bases for missions in Afghanistan, they were given airspace to fly to Afghanistan from Arabian sea, their supplies went through the port of Karachi , hundreds and thousands containers passed every month, to pull out their equipment they again used Pak road network, considerable damage is done to roads due to the sheer number of containers, do you think all of these services are free ?

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## Imran Khan

lets see how can they stop

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## Paksanity

Viper0011. said:


> Common man, you know better.......if the California event hadn't happened, I think Pakistan was going to get the jets. This terror attack wasted NS and RS's entire effort spanning over two months!! There was a relationship that had started to take form. But this attack has left a HUGE mark on stuff and on people's hearts and minds. And Pakistan's name was in it big times again. I am actually surprised that this time, the US media played a very mature role and as always, didn't grill Pakistan to the degree it usually does. But nevertheless, one of the attackers was going to a religious school in Pakistan so there is serious association and the fact remains, how deep is this religious mess inside Pakistani cities??
> 
> There are serious sentiments inside the US, whether it be the people or the government and for all the right reasons. I don't think Indians or any other lobby has to do anything with it. The damage is done, will the Indian lobby make use of it and will further tell the US law makers "we told you so, they'll keep attacking you", you bet!!
> 
> Can the US lawmakers deny that? I don't think so. We just got attacked YET one more time. There is no argument that beats the sad and scary reality!!



"they will keep attacking you" you say. Who are ' they'? If intelligence community can not communicate to lawmakers that ' they' are and will be bombed by these F-16 flown by Pakistan military pilots then it can not be Pakistan's fault either. If US lawmakers are so naive that they don't know that US made F-16s have been instrumental in driving out militants from FATA which again was what both US and Pakistan desired, then I'm afraid US lawmakers are about to lose an important ally in their war against terrorism. I can understand a common Joe painting entire Pakistan with same brush but not a senator or congressman.

Of course it is US decision and they have the right to take it. However this will only drive suspicion and harm vital cooperation in intelligence and logistics spheres. Pakistan will not receive the news well and this will push her to seek other measures to secure its defense. I mean if we can't trust them with just 8 aircraft that too the ones we already have what sort of allies we are. If Tashfeen's blame is to be borne by Pakistan's military, how US doesn't share the blame for her husband,born and bred in US? How actions of Tashfeen become representative of Pak military who is fighting the very same mindset with help of US weapons?

I'm afraid these lawmakers are not looking at the broader picture and they will end up hurting long term US interests with their short term voter's appeasement approach. Someone from Defence and intelligence establishment needs to explain them the facts.

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## Bratva

Hyperion said:


> Try to learn how the US operates. One word. Lobbying. If you can somehow understand the breadth and depth of that single word, and you are ready to throw insane amount of money at it, you can have the American Senate recite "The Kalma" everyday.
> 
> So nothing to do with US policy makers, yet everything to do with the Indian Lobby.



Irrespective of throwing tons of money at them, US legislators are expected to take educated potshots but what these Legislators said was outright stupid and idiotic. I was commenting on the intellectual and critical thinking of such legislators. What's the difference b/w them and rednecks and hillybillys ? These days most of US so called educated legislators take their geo politics lessons from Fox news instead of researching diligently and properly.

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## I S I

Bratva said:


> Irrespective of throwing tons of money at them, US legislators are expected to take educated potshots but what these Legislators said was outright stupid and idiotic. I was commenting on the intellectual and critical thinking of such legislators. What's the difference b/w them and rednecks and hillybillys ? These days most of US so called educated legislators take their geo politics lessons from Fox news instead of researching diligently and properly.


It could be the case of Indian media putting own words in some one else mouth. Happened before too.

We should wait for reliable source..


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## Vyom

Umair Nawaz said:


> Do u know, u still dont have a shred of evidence which tells we support anyone in afghanistan.



Your Quote in the signature.


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## xyxmt

Blue Marlin said:


> *US lawmakers strongly oppose weapon sales to ‘snitch’ Pakistan*
> *Tashfeen Malik – studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message,” committee chairman Ed Royce said in his opening remark*s.



A naturalized US citizen married an innocent Pakistani woman and converted her into a terrorist to commit a heinous crime of shooting innocent civilian that happens very so often in the US....another version of the same incident, for stupid US law maker's review

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## Vyom

yolo2016 said:


> Congrats on disowning your own faults by going now back to 1977. lol - You guys are a riot.
> 
> "look ameriki you funded an Ak47 and helped USSR from taking over us too in 85, and everything we as pakistan have done since then is your fault."




A bit of history.

Pakistan’s Islamist Addiction:
To manage the myriad threats that emanated from Afghanistan, Pakistan turned to a cast of allies that would become the centerpiece of Pakistani foreign policy: Islamists and Islamist militants. By 1960, Pakistan’s intelligence agencies, acting under the auspices of the army, were encouraging Pakistan’s Islamist parties to advance the country’s pursuit of strategic depth by forging ideological allies in Afghanistan. As Afghanistan came increasingly under the influence of the Soviet Union, Pakistan’s Islamist parties and their Afghan allies became the principal foes of Afghan communists. The People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), founded in 1965, was itself divided between rival wings. While the Communist factions competed for power and influence, Islamists were also responding to the spread of leftist ideology. By the mid-1950s, Islamist politics had become firmly entrenched in Kabul, with Islamists gathering at Kabul University to debate campus Marxists. These Islamists were Pakistan’s earliest allies, largely due the mediation of Pakistan’s own Islamist parties, most notably the Jamaat-e-Islami. By 1973, the Islamists conducted their first shura (leadership council) in the home of Burhanuddin Rabbani, a junior member of the Sharia faculty at Kabul University. The shura elected Rabbani as its leader and Ghulam Rasul Sayyaf, also at the Kabul University, as deputy leader. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who was a student, assumed command of political activities. The latter became known as the
Jamiat-i-Islami (Islamic Society) which would form the nucleus of the various mujahideen groups that Pakistan began to instrumentalize in its efforts to manipulate Afghanistan’s internal affairs. As events in Afghanistan began to churn with the pro-Pashtunistan Sardar Mohammad Daoud ousting King Zahir Shah in 1973, Pakistan’s insurgency in Balochistan intensified and Pakistan responded with brutal military force. Afghanistan vigorously opposed military action in Balochistan while simultaneously prosecuting its claims upon Pashtun territories in Pakistan. In 1973, the authoritarian civilian leader Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, exhausted with Afghanistan and its varied policies, ordered the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI) to lead covert actions in Afghanistan. The Inspector General of the Frontier Constabulary and the Director General of the ISI jointly conducted intelligence missions inside Afghanistan. Islamist leaders such as Hekmatyar and Rabbani routinely met with Pakistani intelligence. Bhutto, as well as all subsequent Pakistani leaders, chose Islamists as their instruments of interference in Afghanistan. Pakistan feared using ethnicity-based opposition because of the potential backlash such an approach could have for its own restive ethnic groups on the border areas.

By 1973, many Islamist leaders were already ensconced in militant training camps that the ISI established for them in North and South Waziristan agencies in the FATA. This laid the foundation for a larger anti-Soviet, so-called jihad effort in the 1980s, with American, Saudi, and other funders. These Pashtun-dominated agencies in FATA were a black hole, inaccessible to the press and conveniently located on the border with Afghanistan’s eastern provinces of Paktia, Logar and Paktika. Moreover, Pakistan’s military had a large garrison at Razmak (in the northern part of South Waziristan, near the southern boundary with North Waziristan). Pakistani security forces were also stationed in Mohmand agency abutting the northeastern, Pashtun-dominated, Afghan provinces of Nangarhar and Kunar. Pakistan’s leadership ordered the Frontier Corps, a paramilitary organization whose recruits come from FATA, but whose officers are seconded from the Pakistan army, to organize and train the Afghans. The unit’s inspector general, Brigadier (later Major General) Naseerullah Khan Babar oversaw the entire operation to train the Islamist militants. Hekmatyar and Ahmad Shah Massoud (who would later become an enemy of Pakistan and a target of the Taliban in the mid-1990s) were among the first to receive Pakistani training. Between 1973 and 1977, Pakistan’s armed forces trained some 5,000 militants to fight the Daoud regime. During their time in Pakistan, Afghan Islamists forged ever-deeper ties with Pakistan’s Islamists, in particular members of the Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) and the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islami, both of which were closely tied to the military and received funding from Saudi Arabia, among other donors. Hekmatyar would go on to form Hizb-e-Islami-Afghanistan, which had ideological ties to JI leadership in Pakistan (R. Hussain 2005; Haqqani 2005; Rubin 2002). Contrary to popular perceptions, Pakistan undertook these initiatives well before the Soviets crossed the Amu Darya and long before the United States became involved. In other words, when the United States and others became involved in Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion on Christmas Day, 1979, they were augmenting and resourcing a policy that Pakistan had developed and funded on its own, driven by its own security imperatives. Throughout 1978, Lt. General Fazle Haq, of the ISI and operating at Zia’s orders, managed to collapse about fifty Afghan resistance groups into a more manageable cadre. Other ISI operatives worked to foster deeper ties between Pakistani and Afghan Islamist groups while the Frontier Corps was tasked with training the burgeoning Islamist militias. These collective efforts resulted in seven major Sunni Afghan Islamist militant groups, in addition to a few important Shia militias that enjoyed more support from Iran. These groups were developed solely under Pakistan’s direction and with Pakistani funds; in fact, American assistance to the mujahideen effort did not begin to flow until 1982 because the United States had sanctioned Pakistan in April 1979 for developments in its nuclear weapons program. The United States was unable to overtly fund Pakistan until Ronald Reagan became president in 1981 and worked with Congress to get those sanctions waived.

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## Blue Marlin

xyxmt said:


> A naturalized US citizen married an innocent Pakistani woman and converted her into a terrorist to commit a heinous crime of shooting innocent civilian that happens very so often in the US....another version of the same incident, for stupid US law maker's review


dont say it to me, im just a messenger


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## Wolf

165 Million dollars for one F-16. How could that be?


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## GURU DUTT

Wolf said:


> 165 Million dollars for one F-16. How could that be?


corruption


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## MilSpec

Bratva said:


> Remind me again how Abu musab al zarqawi was killed in Iraq ?


Not by Aim 120C5's for sure. unless there was a riveting flying carpet chase involved in the equation.

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## Umair Nawaz

Vyom said:


> Your Quote in the signature.


i know, but what does amerrica has? from there side as a proof.


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## ganesh623

*'The clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers. We are very foolish, giving people money who involve themselves in activity that's harmful to America.'*

*'When you look at the cold hard facts, Pakistan is not an ally to the United States. They have been a protector of our enemies.'*

*Aziz Haniffa/Rediff.com reports from Washington, DC.*





Almost every member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Wednesday, December 16, slammed Pakistan for its alleged treachery of declaring its strategic loyalty to the US, but simultaneously providing safe havens for and colluding with terrorist groups attacking the US, India and Afghanistan.

Led by Committee Chairman Congressman Ed Royce, California Republican, the members expressed concern over Pakistan's unrelenting development of its nuclear weapons arsenal and pilloried the Obama administration for its policy of continued to provide Islamabad with military and economic largesse, even as its plays this 'double game.'

At a hearing titled, _The Future of US-Pakistan Relations_, Royce fired the first of several salvos, noting, that 'The committee has repeatedly urged Pakistan to take meaningful action against key Islamist terrorist groups operating within its territory. Unfortunately, Pakistan, which is now home to the world's fastest growing nuclear weapons programme, has remained a fount of radical Islamist thought.'

'It was no surprise that one of the San Bernardino attackers, Tashfeen Malik, studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message,' Royce added.

'Looking back,' Royce recalled, 'the 9/11 terrorist attacks transformed US-Pakistan relations overnight. After more than a decade under sanctions for its nuclear proliferation, Pakistan was to be a key ally in combating Islamist militancy, becoming a leading recipient of US aid in the nearly 15 years since.'

But 'while the US was quick to embrace Pakistan,' Royce stated, 'Pakistan has hardly reciprocated. Pakistani governments have come and gone, but its northwestern frontier has remained a terrorist haven, with its security services supporting what it considers to be good Islamist terrorist groups.'

'These good groups, under Pakistan's calculus, destabilise Afghanistan and threaten neighbouring India, while the government simultaneously opposes what it considers the bad Islamist groups.'

'Today,' Royce said, 'Deobandi schools create an infrastructure of hate -- 600 Deobandi_madrasa_s, funded with Gulf State money, teach intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric that inspires the foot soldiers of jihadist terrorism.'

'I've made three trips to Islamabad to press this issue,' Royce said. 'Pakistan must do the work to register schools and close those creating new generations of radicals. And those are the schools that are being funded with Gulf State money -- the Deobandi schools, and they need to be closed.'

'Pakistan's nuclear arsenal,' Royce said, 'is on track to be the third largest. Its addition of small tactical nuclear weapons in recent years is even more troubling. This is a country which spends a fifth of its budget on the military, from long-range missiles to F-16s, but under 2.5 percent on education.'

'Through all of the double-dealing, US policy has essentially stood still. Security assistance, cash, and arms has continued to flow under the occasional temporary delays. Indeed, despite some Department of Defence assistance for Pakistan being held because of inadequate efforts against the Haqqani network, the State Department is currently seeking more arms for Islamabad.'

'We want a strong partnership with the country, but a new policy is long overdue,' Royce said. 'One option, as (_Eliot_) Engel (_New York Democrat_) and I proposed earlier this year, would be to target those officials who maintain relationships with designated terrorist groups, with travel and financial sanctions.'

'This would make it clear,' Royce argued, 'he US and Pakistan cannot have a true strategic partnership, until Pakistan security services cuts ties with terrorist organisations.'

Congressman Ted Poe, Texas Republican, pointed out that the US 'has given Pakistan $30 billion since 9/11,' and asserted, 'Pakistan is a Benedict Arnold ally to the United States. Even going back to May the 2nd, 2011, when there was the raid on -- in Pakistan, on Osama bin Laden, we didn't tell the Pakistanis we were coming, because, frankly, they would snitch us off and Osama bin Laden would have left.'

'And the near confrontation that took place between the US and Pakistan after the raid, Pakistan scrambled two US-made F-16s, and were headed to the area where the raid took place, and a possible confrontation with two US-made jets against American helicopters at the raid didn't happen, but it could have happened,' Poe said.

'I think we need to be very concerned about providing armaments for Pakistan, who seems to play all the sides,' Poe added.




'When I was elected 28 years ago,' Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, California Republican, said, 'I think most people considered me Pakistan's best friend in the House of Representatives. And let me just say that I -- over the years-- have been deeply disappointed that those people who I considered to be my friends were betraying the trust of the United States, and were committing acts that were only the acts that an enemy would commit, even though we continued to have a facade of friendship
'We've given $30 billion -- $30 billion since 9/11 -- to Pakistan, yet we realised that since 9/11, we still see that there's ample evidence that Pakistan is still deeply involved with various terrorist networks, including supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan and radicals who kill Americans.'

'Frankly, our relationship with Pakistan has been a disgrace,' Rohrabacher said. 'We have a government that gave safe haven to Osama bin Laden, the murderer of 3,000 Americans -- 3,000 Americans slaughtered in front of us. I don't think anybody believes that the high-level people in the Pakistan government didn't know about that.'

Rohrabacher complained that Islamabad also 'continues to hold Dr Afridi (_who provided the US intelligence with information about bin Laden's whereabouts_) just to rub it in our face the type of relationship they have with us.'

'And to their own people, they're slaughtering people, they're slaughtering people in Balochistan, and the Sindhis and others who are being brutally oppressed by a clique in their government.'

'It's not all of Pakistan,' Rohrabacher said, 'but the clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers, and they should, because we are. We're acting foolish. We are very foolish, giving people money who have continually to involve themselves in activity that's harmful to the United States of America, is not going to win their friendship.'

'As an Indian American and the only Indian-American member of Congress,' Dr Amerish 'Ami' Bera, California Democrat, said, 'the stability of the region is incredibly important to me.'

'On the counter-terrorism side, I think post-Mumbai in 2008, India demonstrated incredible restraint in its approach to Pakistan.'

'I would have expected Pakistan to have a much more robust crackdown on the terrorist threats, on the LeT (_Lashkar-e-Tayiba_) and the Haqqani network and others,' Dr Bera said. 'From the perspective of the Indians, there is almost this side-by-side relationship in in Pakistan with some of these terrorist networks that's almost symbiotic. They live side by side.'

'In some ways,' Dr Bera pointed out, 'it is almost as though they allow these networks to exist in Pakistan to destabilise the region, or to have this constant threat on India.'






'Pakistan -- let's be truthful about this -- plays a double game,' Congressman Brian Higgins, New York Democrat, asserted. 'They are our military partner, but they are the protector and the patron of our enemies. And this has been going on for 15 years.'

'Since 2002,' Higgins said, 'United States aid to Pakistan, economic and military, has averaged about $2 billion a year. Pakistan's annual defence budget is only about $5 billion a year.'

'Also, Pakistan is involved in an arms race against what it believes is its existential threat with India,' he added. 'In fact, according to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Pakistan could have 350 nuclear warheads in the next decade, becoming the world's third biggest nuclear power, outpacing India, France, China, and the United Kingdom.'

'We have to call them out on this double game that they have been playing, not this year, not last year, not five years, but for the past 15 years.'

'When you really look at the cold hard facts, Pakistan is not an ally to the United States. They have facilitated, they have encouraged, they have been a protector of the very enemies,' Higgins reiterated.

Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, Hawaii Democrat and the first and only Hindu American serving in Congress, brought up the role of the ISI and noted that 'there has been evidence time and time again of their direct and indirect connections with the Haqqani network.'

'In 2011,' Gabbard recalled, 'then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen called the Haqqani network a veritable arm of the ISI.'

'I think one of the greatest concerns as we look at how closely connected the Haqqani and others are to Pakistan,' Gabbard said, 'is the safety of the nuclear weapons that they have.'

'When you have the Haqqani network being an arm of the ISI,' Gabbard said, 'there was concern that that they could gain access to these nuclear weapons or traffic them or get them into the wrong hands.'

US Congress attacks Pakistan: 'Acts only an enemy would commit' - Rediff.com India News


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## vayudoot

Now people will comment about, US + Modi Nexus to contain Pakistan and..Pakistan should get close to Russia and China. 

___ end of debate__


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## Tameem

vayudoot said:


> Now people will comment about, US + Modi Nexus to contain Pakistan and..Pakistan should get close to Russia and China.
> 
> ___ end of debate__



That for diplomacy........in private we Pakistanis enjoys milking that fat silly bull(US) no matter how hard it flungs its head in Air

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## vayudoot

Tameem said:


> how hard it flung its head in Air



through US drones in Air


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## Tameem

vayudoot said:


> through US drones in Air



And that technology too ends up in Pakistani inventory eventually

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## ConcealCarry

and where did the other (352+) terrorists involved in 352 mass shootings during 2015 studied? and what kind of message those schools are spreading?


Mass Shootings in 2015 - Mass Shooting Tracker




Blue Marlin said:


> “I doubt that anyone who follows Pakistan closely was surprised to learn that one of the San Bernardino attackers – *Tashfeen Malik – studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message*,” committee chairman Ed Royce said in his opening remarks.

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## CHD

why would we protect USA interest?do they owe us for anything?they have given us 30 billion half of which is our own money for the transit given by PAKISTAN.
Before USA so called WAR ON TERROR world was a better place.Before 2003 there was no suicide attack in IRAQ in its entire history and they have seen more than 2000 suicide attacks in the last 10 years and same is the case for almont all the muslim countries, before USA there were no suicide attacks and terrorism in Pakisrtan and aftrer USA invasion of Afghanistan there have been 487 suicide attacks in Pakistan in last 15 years and financial losses of almost $100 billion dollars.Due to USA adventures 70,000 pakistanis have lost their lives.We were not an enemy of USA but the next and current generation of Pakistanis are.*USA IS THE ULTIMATE TERRORIST IN THIS WORLD AND EVEN WHEN ISIS IS FINISHED TOMORROW OR DAY AFTER THEN THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ORGANISATION OR COUNTRY(CHINA) WHICH USA WILL SAY IS THE THREAT TO WORLD PEACE*

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## Areesh

It is sad to see that congressmen of a superpower are so dumb. Oh well. That explain the blunders after blunders that USA did all over the world. From Afghanistan to Iraq to Syria. Keep it uncle sam.

Keep screwing our world.

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## vayudoot

Tameem said:


> And that technology too ends up in Pakistani inventory eventually



No that's Chinese


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## ConcealCarry

What's the relevance of the third picture in this article? typical indian whore cribbing




ganesh623 said:


> *'The clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers. We are very foolish, giving people money who involve themselves in activity that's harmful to America.'*
> 
> *'When you look at the cold hard facts, Pakistan is not an ally to the United States. They have been a protector of our enemies.'*
> 
> *Aziz Haniffa/Rediff.com reports from Washington, DC.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost every member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Wednesday, December 16, slammed Pakistan for its alleged treachery of declaring its strategic loyalty to the US, but simultaneously providing safe havens for and colluding with terrorist groups attacking the US, India and Afghanistan.
> 
> Led by Committee Chairman Congressman Ed Royce, California Republican, the members expressed concern over Pakistan's unrelenting development of its nuclear weapons arsenal and pilloried the Obama administration for its policy of continued to provide Islamabad with military and economic largesse, even as its plays this 'double game.'
> 
> At a hearing titled, _The Future of US-Pakistan Relations_, Royce fired the first of several salvos, noting, that 'The committee has repeatedly urged Pakistan to take meaningful action against key Islamist terrorist groups operating within its territory. Unfortunately, Pakistan, which is now home to the world's fastest growing nuclear weapons programme, has remained a fount of radical Islamist thought.'
> 
> 'It was no surprise that one of the San Bernardino attackers, Tashfeen Malik, studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly fundamentalist message,' Royce added.
> 
> 'Looking back,' Royce recalled, 'the 9/11 terrorist attacks transformed US-Pakistan relations overnight. After more than a decade under sanctions for its nuclear proliferation, Pakistan was to be a key ally in combating Islamist militancy, becoming a leading recipient of US aid in the nearly 15 years since.'
> 
> But 'while the US was quick to embrace Pakistan,' Royce stated, 'Pakistan has hardly reciprocated. Pakistani governments have come and gone, but its northwestern frontier has remained a terrorist haven, with its security services supporting what it considers to be good Islamist terrorist groups.'
> 
> 'These good groups, under Pakistan's calculus, destabilise Afghanistan and threaten neighbouring India, while the government simultaneously opposes what it considers the bad Islamist groups.'
> 
> 'Today,' Royce said, 'Deobandi schools create an infrastructure of hate -- 600 Deobandi_madrasa_s, funded with Gulf State money, teach intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric that inspires the foot soldiers of jihadist terrorism.'
> 
> 'I've made three trips to Islamabad to press this issue,' Royce said. 'Pakistan must do the work to register schools and close those creating new generations of radicals. And those are the schools that are being funded with Gulf State money -- the Deobandi schools, and they need to be closed.'
> 
> 'Pakistan's nuclear arsenal,' Royce said, 'is on track to be the third largest. Its addition of small tactical nuclear weapons in recent years is even more troubling. This is a country which spends a fifth of its budget on the military, from long-range missiles to F-16s, but under 2.5 percent on education.'
> 
> 'Through all of the double-dealing, US policy has essentially stood still. Security assistance, cash, and arms has continued to flow under the occasional temporary delays. Indeed, despite some Department of Defence assistance for Pakistan being held because of inadequate efforts against the Haqqani network, the State Department is currently seeking more arms for Islamabad.'
> 
> 'We want a strong partnership with the country, but a new policy is long overdue,' Royce said. 'One option, as (_Eliot_) Engel (_New York Democrat_) and I proposed earlier this year, would be to target those officials who maintain relationships with designated terrorist groups, with travel and financial sanctions.'
> 
> 'This would make it clear,' Royce argued, 'he US and Pakistan cannot have a true strategic partnership, until Pakistan security services cuts ties with terrorist organisations.'
> 
> Congressman Ted Poe, Texas Republican, pointed out that the US 'has given Pakistan $30 billion since 9/11,' and asserted, 'Pakistan is a Benedict Arnold ally to the United States. Even going back to May the 2nd, 2011, when there was the raid on -- in Pakistan, on Osama bin Laden, we didn't tell the Pakistanis we were coming, because, frankly, they would snitch us off and Osama bin Laden would have left.'
> 
> 'And the near confrontation that took place between the US and Pakistan after the raid, Pakistan scrambled two US-made F-16s, and were headed to the area where the raid took place, and a possible confrontation with two US-made jets against American helicopters at the raid didn't happen, but it could have happened,' Poe said.
> 
> 'I think we need to be very concerned about providing armaments for Pakistan, who seems to play all the sides,' Poe added.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'When I was elected 28 years ago,' Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, California Republican, said, 'I think most people considered me Pakistan's best friend in the House of Representatives. And let me just say that I -- over the years-- have been deeply disappointed that those people who I considered to be my friends were betraying the trust of the United States, and were committing acts that were only the acts that an enemy would commit, even though we continued to have a facade of friendship
> 'We've given $30 billion -- $30 billion since 9/11 -- to Pakistan, yet we realised that since 9/11, we still see that there's ample evidence that Pakistan is still deeply involved with various terrorist networks, including supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan and radicals who kill Americans.'
> 
> 'Frankly, our relationship with Pakistan has been a disgrace,' Rohrabacher said. 'We have a government that gave safe haven to Osama bin Laden, the murderer of 3,000 Americans -- 3,000 Americans slaughtered in front of us. I don't think anybody believes that the high-level people in the Pakistan government didn't know about that.'
> 
> Rohrabacher complained that Islamabad also 'continues to hold Dr Afridi (_who provided the US intelligence with information about bin Laden's whereabouts_) just to rub it in our face the type of relationship they have with us.'
> 
> 'And to their own people, they're slaughtering people, they're slaughtering people in Balochistan, and the Sindhis and others who are being brutally oppressed by a clique in their government.'
> 
> 'It's not all of Pakistan,' Rohrabacher said, 'but the clique that runs that country is treating us like suckers, and they should, because we are. We're acting foolish. We are very foolish, giving people money who have continually to involve themselves in activity that's harmful to the United States of America, is not going to win their friendship.'
> 
> 'As an Indian American and the only Indian-American member of Congress,' Dr Amerish 'Ami' Bera, California Democrat, said, 'the stability of the region is incredibly important to me.'
> 
> 'On the counter-terrorism side, I think post-Mumbai in 2008, India demonstrated incredible restraint in its approach to Pakistan.'
> 
> 'I would have expected Pakistan to have a much more robust crackdown on the terrorist threats, on the LeT (_Lashkar-e-Tayiba_) and the Haqqani network and others,' Dr Bera said. 'From the perspective of the Indians, there is almost this side-by-side relationship in in Pakistan with some of these terrorist networks that's almost symbiotic. They live side by side.'
> 
> 'In some ways,' Dr Bera pointed out, 'it is almost as though they allow these networks to exist in Pakistan to destabilise the region, or to have this constant threat on India.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Pakistan -- let's be truthful about this -- plays a double game,' Congressman Brian Higgins, New York Democrat, asserted. 'They are our military partner, but they are the protector and the patron of our enemies. And this has been going on for 15 years.'
> 
> 'Since 2002,' Higgins said, 'United States aid to Pakistan, economic and military, has averaged about $2 billion a year. Pakistan's annual defence budget is only about $5 billion a year.'
> 
> 'Also, Pakistan is involved in an arms race against what it believes is its existential threat with India,' he added. 'In fact, according to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Pakistan could have 350 nuclear warheads in the next decade, becoming the world's third biggest nuclear power, outpacing India, France, China, and the United Kingdom.'
> 
> 'We have to call them out on this double game that they have been playing, not this year, not last year, not five years, but for the past 15 years.'
> 
> 'When you really look at the cold hard facts, Pakistan is not an ally to the United States. They have facilitated, they have encouraged, they have been a protector of the very enemies,' Higgins reiterated.
> 
> Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, Hawaii Democrat and the first and only Hindu American serving in Congress, brought up the role of the ISI and noted that 'there has been evidence time and time again of their direct and indirect connections with the Haqqani network.'
> 
> 'In 2011,' Gabbard recalled, 'then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen called the Haqqani network a veritable arm of the ISI.'
> 
> 'I think one of the greatest concerns as we look at how closely connected the Haqqani and others are to Pakistan,' Gabbard said, 'is the safety of the nuclear weapons that they have.'
> 
> 'When you have the Haqqani network being an arm of the ISI,' Gabbard said, 'there was concern that that they could gain access to these nuclear weapons or traffic them or get them into the wrong hands.'
> 
> US Congress attacks Pakistan: 'Acts only an enemy would commit' - Rediff.com India News


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## CHD

To bring peace to this world you have to kill a terrorist having a gun and an american who is carrying a gun outside its american borders, get rid of these two and the world will be a much better place

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## araz

yolo2016 said:


> You make no sense. U.S does not determine pakistan or india's policy towards each other. If anything, we are victims of terrorism from pakistan too. Obama is a fool for selling weapons or giving aid to Pakistan. But i also see why he does- we need to pay off pakistan for the supply route.


Your own generals who are full of praise for the role the Pak Army played in counter terrorism efforts would beg to differ with you. You are an Indian falsoe flagger. MODS please take note.
Araz

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## Areesh

ConcealCarry said:


> What's the relevance of the third picture in this article? typical indian whore cribbing



India walon nai apna randi rona bhi to karna hai.

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## ConcealCarry

Khandani pasha hai b.chodon ka


Areesh said:


> India walon nai apna randi rona bhi to karna hai.


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## Pakistani E

Viper0011. said:


> Why do you think they bought EFT's???? They have heard the message loud and clear.
> 
> But the topic isn't about KSA, nor was one of the shooters radicalized there. That took place elsewhere. Who would you like to bring into the picture in the next post to divert the attention?



Look, no where did I say US should not pursue further investigation if this woman was radicalised in Pakistan. I will not shy away from the fact that certain religious establishments are involved in radicalisation. What I am merely pointing out is that what is happening in Pakistan is an advanced form of cancer of extremist ideology, it is not where the ideology comes from. Foundation for that is the patronage of the House of Saud. You cannot keep treating symptons but ignore the origin of the disease.

The fact of the matter is, the US and all western governments know that Saudi Arabia is ground zero for most extremist groups in terms of ideological backing. The US can stop all trade with pakistan but it will not stop terrorist attacks in US or anywhere else in the world, as long as the Saudis and their partners in the gulf are freely allowed to export extremist ideology around the world, no amount of name calling Pakistan will stop them. 

I know someone who met ambassadors of various European countries and they were asked about the best way to stop terrorism. The answer they were given was that 'you all know where the extremists get their ideological cover, together with funds, cut that off and you cut off a significant amount of terrorism.' They all, however, bowed in silent and did not attempt to dispute this nor did they say they will do anything to stop this. Maybe its time the US and western allies "do more" to stop their terrorist buddy Saudi in stopping the export of extremism around the world?



Chika_Pika said:


> Ideology don't kill people, it's men(terrorists) who kill people



Most murders are premediated. The people doing the killings have motivations and desires that they seek to accomplish with an act of murder, barring few cases. You cannot boil this argument down to "men kill people". That way you will never be able to combat extremism. The fact of the matter is, this woman at least, was "radicalised" in favour of ISIS. She pledged alliegiance to it. Which basically means she espouses the same desires and motivations that they do. Now lets go back and see what the ideology of ISIS is. It's just another branch of the ideology widespread in Saudi Arabia, this ideology is being exported around the Muslim world with full knowledge of the US. Look, I know you're an Indian, so your thought process is already bias against Pakistan. But I am not absolving Pakistanis who have committed terrorist acts. But if you do not look at the motivation behind criminal and terrorist acts, you will never be able to combat it. Are you familliar with a murder investigation? Motivation is one of the first thing that is looked at.


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## Areesh

ConcealCarry said:


> Khandani pasha hai b.chodon ka



Paidaishi hain. Paida hotai hi seekh laitai hain.


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## Irfan Baloch

Capt.Popeye said:


> LOLLL, @Irfan Baloch ; there is nothing that India can do that Tashfeen Malik and Syed Rizwan Farook did not do........
> Now have fun........


lol?

Rizwan .. an American born citizen grew studied in America.. goes to America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalized


Tashfeen, leaves Pakistan in childhood to live in America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalised

both meet up and come to America...

and do their Business


what does it have to do with me?

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## tarrar

Indian lobby is speaking.


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## Irfan Baloch

Paksanity said:


> "they will keep attacking you" you say. Who are ' they'? If intelligence community can not communicate to lawmakers that ' they' are and will be bombed by these F-16 flown by Pakistan military pilots then it can not be Pakistan's fault either. If US lawmakers are so naive that they don't know that US made F-16s have been instrumental in driving out militants from FATA which again was what both US and Pakistan desired, then I'm afraid US lawmakers are about to lose an important ally in their war against terrorism. I can understand a common Joe painting entire Pakistan with same brush but not a senator or congressman..


Sir i am surprised at the intensity of an Indian joker with American flags .. forgot his name.. who is quoting Dawn news as a proof that we support Haqqanis.. the Idiot if he was American. would have known that its Americans who are openly supporting and funding terrorists in Syra and bitching why Russians are bombing their trained people.
well thats beside the point. the US should lockdown the university and school where Farook educated if Tashfeen's short trip of Al Huda univeristy is to be used as transformation.

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## yolo2016

araz said:


> Your own generals who are full of praise for the role the Pak Army played in counter terrorism efforts would beg to differ with you. You are an Indian falsoe flagger. MODS please take note.
> Araz



Did you expect them to publicly insult them? You take a gentleman's courtesy to mean too much. How is that you take note of a comment from our Generals about that, but disregard the very same General's comment calling out Pakistan for supporting terrorist groups? 

Is not everyone a false flag to you. That theme seems to be the answer to shirk your responsibilities.


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## Irfan Baloch

yolo2016 said:


> All over the internet you will hear Musharraf in his own words confessing to it.
> 
> ISI cultivated Taliban to counter Indian action against Pakistan: Musharraf - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Musharraf’s confession of Kashmir terror - The Express Tribune


I know Indian shy flaggers normally quote Dawn news a lot when it suits them
but thats besides the point.
Americans know it well and even claim it when it suits them (before the oh shit moment) that they prep and support proxies like in the middle east.. they call them moderate Syrian fighters.
ones who behead people, dig up graves and eat hearts? what is so moderate about them?
and then they cry when Russians bomb these "moderates?".

I know you cant think what an AMerican is thinking right now .. the name of America's most valued Arab ally pops up all the time but the US leadership looks the other way blaming someone else.. quoting Tashfeen and Farooks case is the most half-arsed comment that a poor and clueless American politician has had to use against Pakistan.


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## Manzoor Az

Pakistan please seek reality America is no friend. It is a vile nation that openly supports India and always will favour India. Pakistan needs to further strengthen its ties with China Middle East Turkey Azerbaijan Europe South America and South EastAsia


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## DESERT FIGHTER

By all means US should go ahead... A lot of potential sellers ... The Americans would definetly push Pak towards Russian & Chinese camp... Which in turn will screw US interests !

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## Chika_Pika

Pakistani Exile said:


> Look, no where did I say US should not pursue further investigation if this woman was radicalised in Pakistan. I will not shy away from the fact that certain religious establishments are involved in radicalisation. What I am merely pointing out is that what is happening in Pakistan is an advanced form of cancer of extremist ideology, it is not where the ideology comes from. Foundation for that is the patronage of the House of Saud. You cannot keep treating symptons but ignore the origin of the disease.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, the US and all western governments know that Saudi Arabia is ground zero for most extremist groups in terms of ideological backing. The US can stop all trade with pakistan but it will not stop terrorist attacks in US or anywhere else in the world, as long as the Saudis and their partners in the gulf are freely allowed to export extremist ideology around the world, no amount of name calling Pakistan will stop them.
> 
> I know someone who met ambassadors of various European countries and they were asked about the best way to stop terrorism. The answer they were given was that 'you all know where the extremists get their ideological cover, together with funds, cut that off and you cut off a significant amount of terrorism.' They all, however, bowed in silent and did not attempt to dispute this nor did they say they will do anything to stop this. Maybe its time the US and western allies "do more" to stop their terrorist buddy Saudi in stopping the export of extremism around the world?
> 
> 
> 
> Most murders are premediated. The people doing the killings have motivations and desires that they seek to accomplish with an act of murder, barring few cases. You cannot boil this argument down to "men kill people". That way you will never be able to combat extremism. The fact of the matter is, this woman at least, was "radicalised" in favour of ISIS. She pledged alliegiance to it. Which basically means she espouses the same desires and motivations that they do. Now lets go back and see what the ideology of ISIS is. It's just another branch of the ideology widespread in Saudi Arabia, this ideology is being exported around the Muslim world with full knowledge of the US. Look, I know you're an Indian, so your thought process is already bias against Pakistan. But I am not absolving Pakistanis who have committed terrorist acts. But if you do not look at the motivation behind criminal and terrorist acts, you will never be able to combat it. Are you familliar with a murder investigation? Motivation is one of the first thing that is looked at.


You are partially correct that they are brainwashed ideologically but you can't just blame Saudis for all wrong doings. It's your state who provides suitable environment for these jihadists to spread their propaganda to use these snakes against your adversaries be it Afghanistan, India, Iran etc etc. Basically they are part of your state machinery at some point of time, even now many good terrorist are considered freedom fighters, so why blame Saudis?


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## illusion8

Irfan Baloch said:


> Sir i am surprised at the intensity of an Indian joker with American flags .. forgot his name.. who is quoting Dawn news as a proof that we support Haqqanis.. the Idiot if he was American. would have known that its Americans who are openly supporting and funding terrorists in Syra and bitching why Russians are bombing their trained people.
> well thats beside the point. the US should lockdown the university and school where Farook educated if Tashfeen's short trip of Al Huda univeristy is to be used as transformation.



The Americans are supporting the kurds I think.. Al qaeda is the patent organization that oversees most terrorist organization's. .including isis. Zawahiri..After the killing of obl did expose aq strategy to have local powerful militant groups in multiple places of interest...It looks like aq has become successful.


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## Solomon2

Irfan Baloch said:


> ... an American born citizen grew studied in America.. goes to America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalized Tashfeen, leaves Pakistan in childhood to live in America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalised both meet up and come to America...and do their Business what does it have to do with me?









_This Committee has repeatedly urged Pakistan to take meaningful action against key Islamist terrorist groups operating within its territory. Unfortunately Pakistan, which is now home to the world’s fastest growing nuclear weapons program, has remained a fount of radical Islamist thought. I doubt that anyone who follows Pakistan closely was surprised to learn that one of the San Bernardino attackers – Tashfeen Malik – studied at a Pakistani school spreading a particularly conservative message. _

_Looking back, the 9/11 terrorist attacks transformed U.S.-Pakistan relations overnight. After more than a decade under sanctions for its nuclear proliferation, Pakistan was to be a key ally in combatting Islamist militancy, becoming a leading recipient of U.S. aid in the nearly 15 years since. _

_But while the U.S. was quick to embrace Pakistan -- Pakistan has hardly reciprocated. Pakistani governments have come and gone, but Pakistan has remained a terrorist haven, with its security services supporting what it considers to be "good" Islamist terrorist groups. These “good” groups – under Pakistan’s calculus – destabilize Afghanistan and threaten neighboring India. _

_Today, Pakistan maintains an infrastructure of hate. Thousands of Deobandi madrassas, funded with Gulf state money, teach intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric that inspires the foot soldiers of jihadist terrorism. I’ve made three trips to Islamabad to press this issue. Pakistan must do the work to register schools, and close those creating new generations of radicals. _

_Meanwhile, Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is on track to be the third largest. Its addition of small tactical nuclear weapons and longer-range missiles in recent years is even more troubling. This is a country which spends a fifth of its budget on the military, but under two and a half percent on education. _

_Through all of Pakistan’s double-dealing, U.S. policy has essentially stood still. Security assistance – cash and arms – has continued to flow after the occasional temporary delays. Indeed, despite some Department of Defense assistance for Pakistan being held because of inadequate efforts against the Haqqani network, the State Department is currently seeking more arms for Islamabad. _

_Pakistan itself has been devastated by terrorism, with thousands of its soldiers and citizens killed in terrorist attacks. We want a strong partnership with the country. But a new policy is long overdue. One option, as Ranking Member Engel and I proposed earlier this year, would be to target those officials who maintain relationships with designated terrorist groups with travel and financial sanctions. This would make it clear: the U.S. and Pakistan cannot have a true strategic partnership until Pakistan cuts ties with terrorist organizations. _

_Recently, senior U.S. officials – including National Security Advisor Susan Rice and Deputy Secretary of State Tony Blinken – have travelled to Islamabad, reportedly to press on the Pakistani government. We look forward to hearing from our witness today whether there is reason for hope, or if our policy stuck in the same rut. _
link​


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## Wolf

i would like to know the wisdom behind procurement of 165 million dollar F-16 rather than buying atleast 3 J-10s from the same amount. Furthermore, the amount of humiliation which the congress is bestowing upon us coupled with the ifs and buts associated as well as unreliability in terms of provision of spares. Is it worth it? 

There are a lot of other options that can be exercised from this money such as
1) Building infrastructure to roll out more JF-17s from Kamra 
2) Buying J-10s
3) Buying J-11s
4) talks with russia regarding provision of Su 35s.
5) Investment in J-31 program and its acquisition if possible.
6) lastly, if our PAF top brass is so much obsessed with F-16s, we may procure used F-16s with less flying hours on them from other countries.

IMHO 165 million $ per plane is a sheer waste of money and may raise questions as to the transparency of the deal.


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## Solomon2

*The Honorable Richard Olson, *Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, U.S. Department of State

"...During the last two years, we can point to progress, however imperfect, made across the economic and security sectors. First, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his administration have restored macroeconomic stability to Pakistan and improved economic growth...Pakistan has rooted out many terrorist safe havens and recovered more than 160 tons of improvised explosive device (IED) precursors. U.S.-origin equipment, including precision-guided munitions and night vision devices, has allowed Pakistan to successfully target militants at all times of the day and night while minimizing civilian casualties...

"...Pakistan’s counterterrorism cooperation with the United States on al-Qa’ida has been critical in decimating the organization. However, while Pakistan has made significant sacrifices in its fight against terrorism, we believe it can also take more steps to put pressure on all terrorist groups in Pakistan that threaten regional stability...We believe Pakistan will be key to facilitating a peace process with the Taliban, and we hope Pakistan will follow through on its stated commitment to Afghan-owned, Afghan-led reconciliation...

"...With generous support from Congress, U.S. assistance to Pakistan has helped enable progress in many of these areas of mutual interest, and it continues to help Pakistan make incremental improvements. Our security assistance has helped Pakistan develop critical counterinsurgency and counterterrorism capabilities that it has used to great effect in ongoing operations...While we sometimes have differences of opinion, we are able to communicate frankly on the things that are most important to us and find opportunities to make incremental progress. My personal experience has shown me that sustained, consistent engagement with Pakistan – its government, its military, and its people – is the best way to address challenges and advance our core interests and to shape Pakistan’s long-term future...

"....as Pakistan seeks to combat violent extremism and pursue counterinsurgency and counterterrorism objectives, we continue to encourage and support Pakistan to strengthen the rule of law, civil liberties, respect for human rights, accountability, and freedom of speech, which we firmly believe are vital to lasting peace and security...I again thank you for your attention and look forward to your questions."


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> lol?
> 
> Rizwan .. an American born citizen grew studied in America.. goes to America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalized
> 
> 
> Tashfeen, leaves Pakistan in childhood to live in America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalised
> 
> both meet up and come to America...
> 
> and do their Business
> 
> 
> what does it have to do with me?



Hi,

Because america has become foxnews----that is all they can do---blame everyone else---but themselves---and thank you for the post---the way you put it---.

I was thinking something similar---.

Irfan---the thing is pakistan has done a tremendous amount of work to decimate the terrorists----. 

The problem is that we do not understand the intensity of the consequence because the truck missed the car by a whisker--by a hair breadth----so we shake it off as if nothing happened---because our problem is that once we cross over to the other side---we cannot come back----once we see the other side of the VEIL----we cannot look back---turn back time and say okay " he was doing it right and I was wrong ".

Pakistani problem is of marketing itself----. The generals need to stop pitching sales and let professionals do it.


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## ArsalanKhan21

Manzoor Az said:


> Pakistan please seek reality America is no friend.





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> By all means US should go ahead..





MastanKhan said:


> that is all they can do---blame everyone



The ISI and Pakistan Army were clearly double dealing with US when at the same time they supported and armed Talibans. Can't just put all the blame on US while ignoring Pakistan's actions.

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## Ironhammer

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The ISI and Pakistan Army were clearly double dealing with US when at the same time they supported and armed Talibans. Can't just put all the blame on US while ignoring Pakistan's actions.


That we learned from the west, so called civilized west. Or they use diplomatic language that's mean hypocrisy , say some thing else and do the other.

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## ArsalanKhan21

Ironhammer said:


> That we learned from the west, so called civilized west. Or they use diplomatic language that's mean hypocrisy , say some thing else and do the other.



USA is doing the same thing in Syria as they are arming Daesh ISIS and also bombing them at the same time.

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## waz

The ups and downs of the US/Pakistan relationship, nothing new here. They do a point i.e. some individuals do have dubious links, but then they are being slowly rooted out. 
By the way stop replying to Yolo2016, he is clearly an Indian poster and we will be sorting out his flags.

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## Blue Marlin

MilSpec said:


> wait, you need f16 blk52+ with Aim120c5's for fighting terrorists. Sounds legit.


not all weapons need to be for anti terrorism. in fact they dont need blk52's the c130 have bombing capabilities. as long as they are dual use then it should be fine. to be quite honest i get annoyed when india complains towards a sale of weapons to pakistan.(no offence) does pakistan complain about india's purchases. you need to remember the usa has been selling weapons to pakistan way back and have established good relations. yes india offers more interms of sales and their arguement of ofsetting pakistan by india ordering more is not going to work as the usa wants both markets.

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## Pakistani E

Chika_Pika said:


> You are partially correct that they are brainwashed ideologically but you can't just blame Saudis for all wrong doings. It's your state who provides suitable environment for these jihadists to spread their propaganda to use these snakes against your adversaries be it Afghanistan, India, Iran etc etc. Basically they are part of your state machinery at some point of time, even now many good terrorist are considered freedom fighters, so why blame Saudis?



Read my post again, I am not absolving anyone, merely pointing out tht root of the problem. Pakistan is paying for the mistake of supporting terrorists. But to suggest that the US and the Saudis are not to blame is ignoring historical realities.

I don't think this woman or her husband are considered good terrorists by any part of the establishment in Pakistan. Our establishment wants good relations with US.

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## Ultima Thule

We forget USA and stick to JF-17 and will purchase either J-10 or J-11D and than finally J-31,kick *** the USA


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## Paksanity

Irfan Baloch said:


> lol?
> 
> Rizwan .. an American born citizen grew studied in America.. goes to America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalized
> 
> 
> Tashfeen, leaves Pakistan in childhood to live in America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalised
> 
> both meet up and come to America...
> 
> and do their Business
> 
> 
> what does it have to do with me?





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Because america has become foxnews----that is all they can do---blame everyone else---but themselves---and thank you for the post---the way you put it---.
> 
> I was thinking something similar---.
> 
> Irfan---the thing is pakistan has done a tremendous amount of work to decimate the terrorists----.
> 
> The problem is that we do not understand the intensity of the consequence because the truck missed the car by a whisker--by a hair breadth----so we shake it off as if nothing happened---because our problem is that once we cross over to the other side---we cannot come back----once we see the other side of the VEIL----we cannot look back---turn back time and say okay " he was doing it right and I was wrong ".
> 
> Pakistani problem is of marketing itself----. The generals need to stop pitching sales and let professionals do it.



Well sir, I still believe they won't stop these 8 birds. It is too small a deal to spoil graceful exit from Afghanistan and they know it. Most likely these are pressure tactics and should be seen in the backdrop of recent developments. US has been mounting pressure on many fronts and wants Pakistan to cede some space. Top most is nuclear weapons and missile program. More than tactical nukes it is the Submarine launched nukes and long range SSMs that worry them. That puts Pakistan in a very very strong position and it won't be easily dictated then. Then there is this embarrassing situation of Afghanistan. They can't face the public with the current situation over there. Recent humiliation of ANA adds to insult and hence the scapegoating of Pakistan. Then there is this warming Pak-Russia relations and increasing Chinese footprint in Indian Ocean courtesy Pakistan. Doesn't sit well with US policy of choking China via Indian proxy. US might also be setting tone for Pakistan's next big order for Military hardware i.e. come prepared to give in some before you ask for anything big.

All said and done, US still can not afford to walk away just like that (at least in my opinion). There is ISIS rising in Afghanistan which can make US exit impossible to justify. There is critical intelligence to be had and logistics can be a nightmare without Pakistan's help. There is also Russia-china influence to be counter balanced and then there is always a place for a country strategically located with highly trained military. In the end all Pakistan has to do is not flinch and it will be just fine.

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## khanasifm

checked online no where this news to be found except hinustan / times nothing in US news ???


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## Cyberian

United States has provided $30 billion to Pakistan since 2001 and Supa Powa India wasn't able to stop this flow of money to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which is armed to teeth with nukes? How comes?

Americans always make so much noise openly but quietly sell to Pakistan whatever it asks for.


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## MilSpec

Blue Marlin said:


> not all weapons need to be for anti terrorism. in fact they dont need blk52's the c130 have bombing capabilities. as long as they are dual use then it should be fine. to be quite honest i get annoyed when india complains towards a sale of weapons to pakistan.(no offence) does pakistan complain about india's purchases. you need to remember the usa has been selling weapons to pakistan way back and have established good relations. yes india offers more interms of sales and their arguement of ofsetting pakistan by india ordering more is not going to work as the usa wants both markets.



If we have a large market and potential book order which can be leveraged to mitigate security risks for us, then common sense dictates to use it to it's full potential, if anything make it clear to major suppliers that it is a zero sum game when it comes to business, pick either India or Pakistan, if anything let the equation spill into every sector. It happens in every capital equipment market, why should be defense be any different.

From US's perspective, I am not sure how happy Americans will be know that US transfers entire fleet of AH1's without charging a cent to Pakistan from EDC account and in return what it got from Pakistan is pretty evident, pretty much every high value target harbored in Pakistan, ISI worked directly against US although getting a ton of money from WoT account. After providing billions in military AID if the same recipient is colluding against US, then the outrage from the American law makers is quite obvious.



SUPARCO said:


> United States has provided $30 billion to Pakistan since 2001 and Supa Powa India wasn't able to stop this flow of money to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which is armed to teeth with nukes? How comes?
> 
> Americans always make so much noise openly but quietly sell to Pakistan whatever it asks for.


How many lives has that 30 billion paid for, how many Pakistani civilians have died in the drone strikes?

look up preamble to your own constitution, it will be pretty evident what you sold to US for the 30 billion....

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## wiseone2

mshahid said:


> Taliban In 1991, sanctions activated in 1990



how does American aid bankroll the Taliban ?



SUPARCO said:


> United States has provided $30 billion to Pakistan since 2001 and Supa Powa India wasn't able to stop this flow of money to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which is armed to teeth with nukes? How comes?
> 
> Americans always make so much noise openly but quietly sell to Pakistan whatever it asks for.



you sell yourself to the devil and whine about it

What have you gotten from America other than a few F-16s ?


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## Chika_Pika

Pakistani Exile said:


> Read my post again, I am not absolving anyone, merely pointing out tht root of the problem. Pakistan is paying for the mistake of supporting terrorists. But to suggest that the US and the Saudis are not to blame is ignoring historical realities.
> 
> I don't think this woman or her husband are considered good terrorists by any part of the establishment in Pakistan. Our establishment wants good relations with US.


I agree US and Saudi are also responsible


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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> how does American aid bankroll the Taliban ?
> 
> 
> 
> you sell yourself to the devil and whine about it
> 
> What have you gotten from America other than a few F-16s ?



US funded Mujahideen and Mujahideen re branded themselves as Taliban.


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## Kompromat

They WILL be snitched


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## my2cents

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The whole policy of supporting Taliban was fundamentally wrong. If Pakistan Army and/or ISI knew where Bin Laden was living it was treason. Saudi Arabia-born Tashfeen Malik was radicalized in Saudi Arabia. American-born husband Syed Rizwan Farook attacked because he had arguments with anti-Muslim person in San Bernardino nothing directly relating to Pakistan. Syed Rizwan Farook graduated from California State University, San Bernardino does that mean that University must be suspect ? Tashfeen Malik studied at Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan on the seat reserved for Overseas Pakistanis and she rarely interacted with the University staff and other students. If you want to blame Bahauddin Zakariya University than equally blame California State University.



If this was an isolated case of indoctrination then I would buy your argument. But we have numerous cases of indoctrination shootings, including the ones that happen in your country almost on daily basis. It is the process of radicalization that is culminating in all these shootings that is alarming. Take 9/11, 26/11, San Bernadino, 2009 Fort Hood shooting cases and many others and what you will find is that all these perpetrators of shooting were indoctrinated or influenced by some radical elements of Islam. They have no respect for human life. They have no respect for man made constitution or its institutions. They are all inferior to commandments from God.

If the University of San Bernardino is teaching all that then you are right.


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## Vyom

Umair Nawaz said:


> i know, but what does amerrica has? from there side as a proof.



So you are of the opinion that only which can be proven in court of law with evidence is the only truth. Hope you use that as a life rule.  

Pakistan is an American convenience compromise, Look what they did to Iraq, and they didn't need a shred of evidence for that. My sincere advice is Keep safe distance from the Americans. No matter what, their friendship is fatal.

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## Super Falcon

165 mil each are we nuts rafale is around 110 mill better in thi price we got SU 35 20 of them each around 85 mil

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## wiseone2

Paksanity said:


> Well sir, I still believe they won't stop these 8 birds. It is too small a deal to spoil graceful exit from Afghanistan and they know it. Most likely these are pressure tactics and should be seen in the backdrop of recent developments. US has been mounting pressure on many fronts and wants Pakistan to cede some space. Top most is nuclear weapons and missile program. More than tactical nukes it is the Submarine launched nukes and long range SSMs that worry them. That puts Pakistan in a very very strong position and it won't be easily dictated then. Then there is this embarrassing situation of Afghanistan. They can't face the public with the current situation over there. Recent humiliation of ANA adds to insult and hence the scapegoating of Pakistan. Then there is this warming Pak-Russia relations and increasing Chinese footprint in Indian Ocean courtesy Pakistan. Doesn't sit well with US policy of choking China via Indian proxy. US might also be setting tone for Pakistan's next big order for Military hardware i.e. come prepared to give in some before you ask for anything big.
> 
> All said and done, US still can not afford to walk away just like that (at least in my opinion). There is ISIS rising in Afghanistan which can make US exit impossible to justify. There is critical intelligence to be had and logistics can be a nightmare without Pakistan's help. There is also Russia-china influence to be counter balanced and then there is always a place for a country strategically located with highly trained military. In the end all Pakistan has to do is not flinch and it will be just fine.



US Navy would hunt your subs in no time. It is easier to destroy your nukes in the sea rather than land where you have plenty of places to hide



mshahid said:


> US funded Mujahideen and Mujahideen re branded themselves as Taliban.



that is not Uncle Sam's problem. It is Gen Zia and ISI's policy to exclude secular nationalists from the Mujhadeen and include the Islamic wackos. The CIA went along.


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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> US Navy would hunt your subs in no time. It is easier to destroy your nukes in the sea rather than land where you have plenty of places to hide
> 
> 
> 
> that is not Uncle Sam's problem. It is Gen Zia and ISI's policy to exclude secular nationalists from the Mujhadeen and include the Islamic wackos. The CIA went along.



Uncle SAM left millions of extremists on our door steps after breaking USSR into pieces, and they are going to do the same once again. What Uncle SAM expect from US ?? We will not buy them a air ticket to their homes. US should complete the tasks they opened or stop doing world policing.


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## wiseone2

mshahid said:


> Uncle SAM left millions of extremists on our door steps after breaking USSR into pieces, and they are going to do the same once again. What Uncle SAM expect from US ?? We will not buy them a air ticket to their homes. US should complete the tasks they opened or stop doing world policing.



Uncle Sam did not choose the extremists. Gen Zia and Pakistani army did
Your army is the god father for all these nutcases


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## Blue Marlin

MilSpec said:


> If we have a large market and potential book order which can be leveraged to mitigate security risks for us, then common sense dictates to use it to it's full potential, if anything make it clear to major suppliers that it is a zero sum game when it comes to business, pick either India or Pakistan, if anything let the equation spill into every sector. It happens in every capital equipment market, why should be defense be any different.
> 
> From US's perspective, I am not sure how happy Americans will be know that US transfers entire fleet of AH1's without charging a cent to Pakistan from EDC account and in return what it got from Pakistan is pretty evident, pretty much every high value target harbored in Pakistan, ISI worked directly against US although getting a ton of money from WoT account. After providing billions in military AID if the same recipient is colluding against US, then the outrage from the American law makers is quite obvious.


well im sorry..... for the usa its not as easy as picking either or. its, i want you both. india is looking at buying f18 or is being offered f18s. and pakistan is buying f16s. do you think that the usa will not care who it sells the weapons too? remember if pakistan and india become buddies weapon sales will fall incremently. its unlikely as they will never become buddies as powerfull people on both sides dont want that. so with the "threat" of a conflict being moderate that threat needs to be countered, and the usa is there to serve both parties.
sure in some cases like france and russia thats differant.

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## T-Rex

Viper0011. said:


> She went to a Pharmacy school and she also attended a Maddrassa or a religious institute.



*There are more examples of terrorists with university education, so should we start painting the universities as breeding ground of terrorism? You're not after terrorism, you're after Islam and its fundamental institutions, terrorism is a tool which is being used to curb the influence if Islam. Terrorism is part and parcel of the US foreign policy, if not assrahell wouldn't be neck deep in state terrorism and roam around scot-free. It's the Machiavellian policy of secretly creating, training and funding terrorists and thugs like the ME despots to contain greater Islamic renaissance which is to be blamed for the turmoil we see in ME right now. As you speak, your ally assrahell is busy rescuing and treating the daesh terrorists. You think the world doesn't understand what that means? What would you have said if Pakistanis were doing that? Assrahell and her allies like sissy the thug are responsible for the destructive trends in the Muslim youth. In the end Muslims are at the receiving end of it and that tells whose dirty business it is.*


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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> Uncle Sam did not choose the extremists. Gen Zia and Pakistani army did
> Your army is the god father for all these nutcases



No, You are wrong, first they invited them from all over the world to Afghanistan and once their mission was complete against Russia, they just left.. Same US is doing with ISIS. funding training and providing logistics and in the end when Russia break or US's mission accomplished they will left syrians and iraqis just like that under the guns of ISIS.

Thats how America operate in the world.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We normally hear many things , such as crows , birds and dogs barking , its difficult to pay attention minor voices

Congress is far far away , and , we just can't hear it well because of great distance but they seem to have it all WRONG


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## araz

yolo2016 said:


> Did you expect them to publicly insult them? You take a gentleman's courtesy to mean too much. How is that you take note of a comment from our Generals about that, but disregard the very same General's comment calling out Pakistan for supporting terrorist groups?
> 
> Is not everyone a false flag to you. That theme seems to be the answer to shirk your responsibilities.


So I called you a false flagger correctly. And you thought you could hide behind the US flag. But thevenom in your post is clear for all to see. There is the blood of 20000 soldiers and 80 000 of my countrymen giving proof of our intent to rid us of a menace that was not of our creation in the first instance. If that is not enough the said congressmen should feel ashed of the fact that they count money that they owe us in rent for our facilities that they have used and our fuel that they have consumed and our transport system that they have used to transport stuff across our country on our roads for their war on terror. To top it all off they have finally come round to listening 5o what we have been saying all along that negotiating with the Taliban is a better option rather than bombing the shit out of them as USSR tried it to no avail. And you talk of our treachery. Subhan Allah! !! Do you have no shame.

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## Capt.Popeye

Irfan Baloch said:


> lol?
> 
> Rizwan .. an American born citizen grew studied in America.. goes to America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalized
> 
> 
> Tashfeen, leaves Pakistan in childhood to live in America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalised
> 
> both meet up and come to America...
> 
> and do their Business
> 
> 
> what does it have to do with me?



Has nothing to do with me neither......... (except for having to reach for some more



pop-corn)
@Irfan Baloch; whats up with you now..... ready to ditch your fellow 'ummah-wallas' so easily now?


----------



## Rahatullah

Every sanction of yours is a blessing in disguise ....thy friendship hurts , thy enmity relieves...This is not your f.16 that make us win , this is the matchless trait of resilience in the Pakistani blood that make change happen ..
And the TRAIT we own ..no one can take it ...IT BURNS TO CONTAIN IT ...good day


----------



## Bratva

MilSpec said:


> Not by Aim 120C5's for sure. unless there was a riveting flying carpet chase involved in the equation.




Did US paid for these C5's via CT funds ?



MilSpec said:


> If we have a large market and potential book order which can be leveraged to mitigate security risks for us, then common sense dictates to use it to it's full potential, if anything make it clear to major suppliers that it is a zero sum game when it comes to business, pick either India or Pakistan, if anything let the equation spill into every sector. It happens in every capital equipment market, why should be defense be any different.
> 
> From US's perspective, I am not sure how happy Americans will be know that US transfers entire fleet of AH1's without charging a cent to Pakistan from EDC account and in return what it got from Pakistan is pretty evident, pretty much every high value target harbored in Pakistan, ISI worked directly against US although getting a ton of money from WoT account. After providing billions in military AID if the same recipient is colluding against US, then the outrage from the American law makers is quite obvious.
> 
> 
> How many lives has that 30 billion paid for, how many Pakistani civilians have died in the drone strikes?
> 
> look up preamble to your own constitution, it will be pretty evident what you sold to US for the 30 billion....



If ISI directly against US, then how come US started direct negotiations against those elements ISI supported by giving them a political refuge in Qatar, China and IRAN. Infact US directly engaged with Haqqani group second in command in Murree talks. Those American Law makers should understand if US is not serious in alleviating our concerns about Indian and afghan terrorism inside Pakistan, we will not care about your concerns as well. 

Common sense dictates, ISI would not have done double dealings if US was sincere and would not have let NDS+RAW have a free hand in balochistan and FATA from 2006. Only after TTP 2nd in command capture along with NDS officials created sincerity. 

And there is a war going on in afghanistan. What do you expect, Pakistan is some sort of super humans they can stop the flow of terrorists running from there to here? Is US able to stop the flow of Mexican drug cartels? No. But Did Pakistan created any hindrance when US targeted those HVT in Pakistan ? No.

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> lol?
> 
> Rizwan .. an American born citizen grew studied in America.. goes to America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalized
> 
> 
> Tashfeen, leaves Pakistan in childhood to live in America's best allied country KSA and gets radicalised
> 
> both meet up and come to America...
> 
> and do their Business
> 
> 
> what does it have to do with me?



Let us not forget the role played by Al-Huda in this case, Sir.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Why F16 so expensive?



Blue Marlin said:


> do you thin the usa as a whole is stupid enough to let business with pakistn go? even if it is little.
> 
> remember the gunship fiasco. they wanted zulus and they said no. all of a sudden china, turkey and russia stepped in and offered to fill the void. then the usa jumps in and gives an offer to good to refuse. and they take it as well as some from russia and china too. but the later 2 were not worth $900+ million. the usa got the big chunk


Will Pakistan use China or Russia as step stone to get visa for US weapon in the future? I mean the passion of PAF for F16 , in my eyes, is very much over the necessity. Those F16 worth 165 millions each? That's robbing.


----------



## Blue Marlin

wanglaokan said:


> Why F16 so expensive?
> 
> 
> Will Pakistan use China or Russia as step stone to get visa for US weapon in the future? I mean the passion of PAF for F16 , in my eyes, is very much over the necessity. Those F16 worth 165 millions each? That's robbing.


its not $165 million each.the media got it wrong. for 165 million it would be a f15. china and pakistan are buddies and the china will be happy to sell tech to pakistan. but pakista is mainly focused on the jf-17 and upgrading that. then after that then they will probably get to work on a 5th gen fighter somwhere early in 2020's. pakistan i not interested in thej10 as the tech on the j10 will be on later jf-17 models. for pakistan airforce the 3 main jobs are keep working on the jf-17, buy more f16's new or second hand. and look for a 5th gen fighter. the last one should be easy as theres only 2 options. the j31 and the tfx


----------



## 帅的一匹

Blue Marlin said:


> its not $165 million each.the media got it wrong. for 165 million it would be a f15. china and pakistan are buddies and the china will be happy to sell tech to pakistan. but pakista is mainly focused on the jf-17 and upgrading that. then after that then they will probably get to work on a 5th gen fighter somwhere early in 2020's. pakistan i not interested in thej10 as the tech on the j10 will be on later jf-17 models. for pakistan airforce the 3 main jobs are keep working on the jf-17, buy more f16's new or second hand. and look for a 5th gen fighter. the last one should be easy as theres only 2 options. the j31 and the tfx


PAF wanna get J20, it takes time.


----------



## Blue Marlin

wanglaokan said:


> PAF wanna get J20, it takes time.


i dont know the answer to that


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let us not forget the role played by Al-Huda in this case, Sir.




Shhhhh!!!! things like the Al-Huda and other such influences (which are a 'dime a dozen' as we know already) all fall in the "don't ask, don't tell" category. Lets not embarrass @Irfan Baloch........ now. 
Maybe he just wants to think that its only a "bad dream"............



mshahid said:


>




Such a lovely portrait of Ol' Ronnie Reagan sitting with fellow-tribals.
No wonder he was a failed C-grade Hollywood actor in his earlier career.


----------



## MilSpec

Bratva said:


> Did US paid for these C5's via CT funds ?


Looks like the aircrafts themselves came off the EDA funds.

Pakistan had originally planned a total purchase valued at $5.1 billion, almost all of it in national funds. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes it wanted to purchase from 36 to 18, which lowered the overall value of the deal to approximately $3.1 billion. The 18 new planes are valued at $1.4 billion, with the remainder of the $3.1 billion dedicated to associated munitions (valued at approximately $641 million) and 46 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet (estimated to cost $891 million). Additionally, the United States has provided Pakistan with *14 F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA).*

Source F-16


for the rest look up SIPRI for what came from where, either WOT account, EDA or FMA. 






Bratva said:


> If ISI directly against US, then how come US started direct negotiations against those elements ISI supported by giving them a political refuge in Qatar, China and IRAN. Infact US directly engaged with Haqqani group second in command in Murree talks. Those American Law makers should understand if US is not serious in alleviating our concerns about Indian and afghan terrorism inside Pakistan, we will not care about your concerns as well.


In that case the US lawmakers are absolutely correct in questioning military assistance to pakistan as you are admitting it's duplicity/



Bratva said:


> And there is a war going on in afghanistan. What do you expect, Pakistan is some sort of super humans they can stop the flow of terrorists running from there to here? Is US able to stop the flow of Mexican drug cartels? No. But Did Pakistan created any hindrance when US targeted those HVT in Pakistan ? No.



Well, most of the top US politicians and Military brass have on record stated Pakistan shielding and protecting US's designated HVT's. If there wasn't why wouldn't they allow Pakistan to capture OBL, you can still apprehend the egyptian and hand them over the US, but you won't.[/QUOTE]



mshahid said:


> No, You are wrong, first they invited them from all over the world to Afghanistan and once their mission was complete against Russia, they just left.. Same US is doing with ISIS. funding training and providing logistics and in the end when Russia break or US's mission accomplished they will left syrians and iraqis just like that under the guns of ISIS.
> 
> Thats how America operate in the world.




Lets see if there are any other precedence of similar nature.

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## Sipahi

MilSpec said:


> Looks like the aircrafts themselves came off the EDA funds.
> 
> Pakistan had originally planned a total purchase valued at $5.1 billion, almost all of it in national funds. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes it wanted to purchase from 36 to 18, which lowered the overall value of the deal to approximately $3.1 billion. The 18 new planes are valued at $1.4 billion, with the remainder of the $3.1 billion dedicated to associated munitions (valued at approximately $641 million) and 46 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet (estimated to cost $891 million). Additionally, the United States has provided Pakistan with *14 F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA).*
> 
> Source F-16
> 
> 
> for the rest look up SIPRI for what came from where, either WOT account, EDA or FMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In that case the US lawmakers are absolutely correct in questioning military assistance to pakistan as you are admitting it's duplicity/
> 
> 
> 
> Well, most of the top US politicians and Military brass have on record stated Pakistan shielding and protecting US's designated HVT's. If there wasn't why wouldn't they allow Pakistan to capture OBL, you can still apprehend the egyptian and hand them over the US, but you won't.






Lets see if there are any other precedence of similar nature.





[/QUOTE]

What actually bugti did for bhutto ???


----------



## MilSpec

Blue Marlin said:


> theres only 2 options. the j31 and the tfx


Well, according to PDF, within a few months there would be SU35's, which will pave the way for PAKFA's, the american wing of PDF is quite confident by 2020 there would be F35's and then the traditional J20, j31's and finally we have the thanksgiving TFX. 

so either ways PAF is covered pretty well, or is it 



mshahid said:


> What actually bugti did for bhutto ???



Known terrorist according to Government of Pakistan pictured with the head of state of Pakistan a few decades ago. 

Very similar to 
Known terrorist according to US government pictured with the head of state of US a few decades ago. 

That is the precedence.

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## rockstar08

8 F-16's are good for what anyway ?

every Single Country around us is upgrading their Air forces and we are stuck with just 8 F-Sola ? and with that no one know how man strings will be attached ..

India buying 36 Rafale 
Qatar Buy 24 Rafale 
Indonesia bought Su-35's 
China Bought Su-35's 
UAE planned to Buy Rafale 
Iran looking forward for Su-30's and many more 
and so on ...

but where we Stand ? no where 
No heavy Fighter , No Long Range SAM's , No Deep Strike Capabilities ?

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## ArsalanKhan21

rockstar08 said:


> but where we Stand ? no where
> No heavy Fighter , No Long Range SAM's , No Deep Strike Capabilities ?



We have Talibans for last 25 years they are more powerful than any fifth generation fighters.

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## Sipahi

Capt.Popeye said:


> Shhhhh!!!! things like the Al-Huda and other such influences (which are a 'dime a dozen' as we know already) all fall in the "don't ask, don't tell" category. Lets not embarrass @Irfan Baloch........ now.
> Maybe he just wants to think that its only a "bad dream"............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a lovely portrait of Ol' Ronnie Reagan sitting with fellow-tribals.
> No wonder he was a failed C-grade Hollywood actor in his earlier career.



Who cares about his antics in hollywood.

He was Mr. President of Mighty US when the meeting held in oval office.



MilSpec said:


> Well, according to PDF, within a few months there would be SU35's, which will pave the way for PAKFA's, the american wing of PDF is quite confident by 2020 there would be F35's and then the traditional J20, j31's and finally we have the thanksgiving TFX.
> 
> so either ways PAF is covered pretty well, or is it
> 
> 
> 
> Known terrorist according to Government of Pakistan pictured with the head of state of Pakistan a few decades ago.
> 
> Very similar to
> Known terrorist according to US government pictured with the head of state of US a few decades ago.
> 
> That is the precedence.



He was not terrorist at the time and he played a key role for gwadar.

However he and bhutto fallout on Gas royalty issue and after bhutto era he got elected as a cheif minister of Balochistan.

He became terrorist while balochistan when balochis are not electing his clan so he decided to go against state and got a missile in cave.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let us not forget the role played by Al-Huda in this case, Sir.


how can I ever forget that sir and how can I also forget the role played byt eh "in-transit" country as well that funds the likes of Al-Huda and turns seemingly normal American citizens into Radicalised killers .. when visited.
just saying lets not be selective here. why we and the good US lawmakers have to waste time on such a weak Pakistani link of this couple? when there are much better examples there? 

like a certain guest that was eventually caught and made a "thrilling" appearance in "*Zero Dark 30*" thus helping the good Americans to forget why the same guest was allowed to escape tora bora in the first place? how could we make such a thrilling movie if he had been caught right there and then? asks Irfan?

oh yea sorry Al Huda..? No no thats smoke screen please dont let the occupants of Red Mosque run away again.. the ex pat Pakistani female murderer also allegedly met the Red Mosque leadership .. now that is something good patriot Americans should hammer into Pakistani leadership.. I wonder why they don? 

is it because raiding and closing down Red Mosque will indirectly also help us Pakistanis too?



Capt.Popeye said:


> Has nothing to do with me neither......... (except for having to reach for some more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pop-corn)
> @Irfan Baloch; whats up with you now..... ready to ditch your fellow 'ummah-wallas' so easily now?


speak for your self buddy.. I will up your pop corn with chicken nuggets .. but diet coke since I am watching my figure.


----------



## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> how can I ever forget that sir and how can I also forget the role played byt eh "in-transit" country as well that funds the likes of Al-Huda and turns seemingly normal American citizens into Radicalised killers .. when visited.
> just saying lets not be selective here. why we and the good US lawmakers have to waste time on such a weak Pakistani link of this couple? when there are much better examples there?
> 
> like a certain guest that was eventually caught and made a "thrilling" appearance in "*Zero Dark 30*" thus helping the good Americans to forget why the same guest was allowed to escape tora bora in the first place? how could we make such a thrilling movie if he had been caught right there and then? asks Irfan?
> 
> oh yea sorry Al Huda..? No no thats smoke screen please dont let the occupants of Red Mosque run away again.. the ex pat Pakistani female murderer also allegedly met the Red Mosque leadership .. now that is something good patriot Americans should hammer into Pakistani leadership.. I wonder why they don?
> 
> is it because raiding and closing down Red Mosque will indirectly also help us Pakistanis too?



Fascinating conspiratorial undertones in your reply Sir. The next movie script, perhaps?


----------



## Wolf

wiseone2 said:


> US Navy would hunt your subs in no time. It is easier to destroy your nukes in the sea rather than land where you have plenty of places to hide
> 
> 
> 
> that is not Uncle Sam's problem. It is Gen Zia and ISI's policy to exclude secular nationalists from the Mujhadeen and include the Islamic wackos. The CIA went along.




i would like to know the ways and means by which US Navy may be able to hunt our submarines in no time.

As far as Gen. ZIa's policy is concerned, he did absolutely right by inducting mujahideens because Afghan nationalists were against Pakistan from the begining and tried to carve out a pashtunistan and so could not be trusted. Furthermore it resulted in uniting all muslim nationalities in Afghan Jihad and fighters from many muslim countries joined which reinforced the Afghan resistance against russians. Therefore, General ZIa's policy at that time was the need of the hour. Priorities in foreign policy change with time. TTP of today are our enemies in the same way as for usa yesterday's mujahideen are today's terrorists. Last but not the least TTP has no connection with mujahideens as that generation is not into fighting anymore. TTP is a foreign funded band of mercenaries and they have been routed to a large extent from Pakistani territory.


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## VCheng

Capt.Popeye said:


> Shhhhh!!!! things like the Al-Huda and other such influences (which are a 'dime a dozen' as we know already) all fall in the "don't ask, don't tell" category. Lets not embarrass @Irfan Baloch........ now.
> Maybe he just wants to think that its only a "bad dream"............



It is quite hard to shush me to be quiet. The truth embarrasses only those who wish to avoid it.


----------



## MilSpec

mshahid said:


> He was not terrorist at the time .


And that is the key Phrase....

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## Slave_to_the_waffle

Blue Marlin said:


> not all weapons need to be for anti terrorism



@waz however would like to see the Type 216 sold to Pakistan for that reason.






But of course this isn't actually outlandish considering submarines are used to insert covert operatives conducting counter-terrorism:





Even if the submarine doesn't have a lockout chamber:










Looks like @waz was on the right track, Germany should offer Pakistan the Type 216 for counter-terrorism purposes.





MilSpec said:


> the american wing of PDF is quite confident by 2020 there would be F35's



Hasn't it been the opposite from the Americans? Haven't most of them said the geopolitical and financial realities make the F-35 for Pakistan an unrealistic proposition?

That's what I've noticed anyway from the likes of Oldman, F-22Raptor, AMDR and the other American "Americans".

I admire your cynicism though.


----------



## Indika

rockstar08 said:


> , No Deep Strike Capabilities ?


deep strike? only deep strike pakistan indulges is in FATA/Waziristan so why does pakistan need such long range heavy jets?

(Campaign intensifies: Fresh aerial strikes in North Waziristan kill 25 militants - The Express Tribune)


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Irfan Baloch said:


> speak for your self buddy.. I will up your pop corn with chicken nuggets .. but diet coke since I am watching my figure.



No Coke for me now. Its the weekend so its some pints of Beer as my choice of refreshment. But if you convince yourself hard enough, then the recent events will seem like a bad dream........ or even better still, as if they never even happened!
Have a nice weekend..... now I'm off towards the cooler-box.


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## Blue Marlin

Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> @waz however would like to see the Type 216 sold to Pakistan for that reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But of course this isn't actually outlandish considering submarines are used to insert covert operatives conducting counter-terrorism:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if the submarine doesn't have a lockout chamber:


can you imagine the navy try to justify why it would be good for counter terrorism.
well there nearly did order 3 type 214's but it was canced due to the cost and restrictions.



MilSpec said:


> Well, according to PDF, within a few months there would be SU35's, which will pave the way for PAKFA's, the american wing of PDF is quite confident by 2020 there would be F35's and then the traditional J20, j31's and finally we have the thanksgiving TFX.
> 
> so either ways PAF is covered pretty well, or is it


how dare you! su-35!! remove the su and put an f there, f-35 laddy f-35. india will really be in trouble would'nt they?

the only options are the j-31 and tfx for pakistan thats it.

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## Cyberian

MilSpec said:


> How many lives has that 30 billion paid for, how many Pakistani civilians have died in the drone strikes?
> 
> look up preamble to your own constitution, it will be pretty evident what you sold to US for the 30 billion....



Soviet Union also used to launch air strikes on Pakistan's border region 1980s. That empire is dead.

How many Indians have been killed in terrorist attacks since 2001? Why don't you look at your own statistics first.

Your poverty stricken nation has ended up with $483 billion of external debt as of June 2015, was it really worth confronting Pakistan?


----------



## MilSpec

SUPARCO said:


> Soviet Union also used to launch air strikes on Pakistan's border region 1980s. That empire is dead.


Was soviet union you major ally and largest aid donor to your country?



SUPARCO said:


> How many Indians have been killed in terrorist attacks since 2001? Why don't you look at your own statistics first.


compare and see the results. 




SUPARCO said:


> Your poverty stricken nation has ended up with $483 billion of external debt as of June 2015, was it really worth confronting Pakistan?


our economy yoy has done better, and external debt is not the sole indicator for performance of an economy. As far as confrontation with Pakistan, we will do whatever we need to do for protecting our interests. We have an independent foriegn policy which values our sovriegnity, our foreign policy has, is and will never be bartered for few shiny f16's and military aid. But that may be beyond your comprehension, as of now sit back and take diktats for your major donor, you put yourself in that position, so why complain now.

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## Sipahi

MilSpec said:


> And that is the key Phrase....



You are such an ................. Fill it your self.


what subhasg chandra bose doing with Lord Mountbatten as a President of Congress. google it.

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## MilSpec

mshahid said:


> You are such an ................. Fill it your self.


It takes courage to say what you have to say and you clearly lack it.



mshahid said:


> what subhasg chandra bose doing with Lord Mountbatten as a President of Congress. google it.


That is just supporting my point... that is just another fail moment in your confrontational excitement.

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## Sipahi

MilSpec said:


> It takes courage to say what you have to say and you clearly lack it.
> 
> 
> That is just supporting my point... that is just another fail moment in your confrontational excitement.



We are not the who believe in having slap one after another by changing facial side  you are itching to rate me negitive, but I will not give you another hit.

Someone's terrorists is another freedom fighter.


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## Indika

mshahid said:


> Someone's terrorists is another freedom fighter.


snakes are snakes by whichever name you call it. Some bite the prey and others swallow them.
only good choice is not to end up becoming vermins or become their prey. just pick your choice.


----------



## Sipahi

eyeswideshut said:


> snakes are snakes by whichever name you call it. Some bite the prey and others swallow them.
> only good choice is not to end up becoming vermins or become their prey. just pick your choice.



What are you thoughts on Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra bose ?


----------



## Joseph Goebbels

mshahid said:


> What are you thoughts on Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra bose ?


so now when you have failed collectivelly even by 3.5 wars with india and some 40 years of proxy wars to get kashmir you find solace is mocking at owr national heros no wonder you still name your missiles after those who invaded and ensalved your lands of your ancesstors

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## Indika

mshahid said:


> What are you thoughts on Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra bose ?


former was sikh and latter was hindu , proof of indias cultural diversity .

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## wiseone2

mshahid said:


> What are you thoughts on Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra bose ?



I do not have an opinion on Bhagat Singh. My opinion on Subash Chandra Bose is that he was crazy or stupid to ally with Nazi Germany and Japan.


----------



## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> I do not have an opinion on Bhagat Singh. My opinion on Subash Chandra Bose is that he was crazy or stupid to ally with Nazi Germany and Japan.



Most of the India wont agree with you on that



eyeswideshut said:


> former was sikh and latter was hindu , proof of indias cultural diversity .


Ahahahaha Good one



Joseph Goebbels said:


> so now when you have failed collectivelly even by 3.5 wars with india and some 40 years of proxy wars to get kashmir you find solace is mocking at owr national heros no wonder you still name your missiles after those who invaded and ensalved your lands of your ancesstors



Ahaha tujhe q bura lag rha hai bhai hmare missiles k naam

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## Joseph Goebbels

mshahid said:


> Most of the India wont agree with you on that
> 
> 
> Ahahahaha Good one
> 
> 
> 
> Ahaha tujhe q bura lag rha hai bhai hmare missiles k naam


why should we mind what you do rather we are really happy that you are doing it its only your false ego and racial bravado that dosent lets you see the true fact


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## Sipahi

Joseph Goebbels said:


> why should we mind what you do rather we are really happy that you are doing it its only your false ego and racial bravado that dosent lets you see the true fact



You are pointing out the names , they caught your attention ??


----------



## Joseph Goebbels

mshahid said:


> You are pointing out the names , they caught your attention ??


every body needs a little bit of humor for entertainment dont they 

thing is we have kashmir and we have both great armed forces and an economy to support them + we have all the powers in the world USA, UK , Europe , Russia , Israel to owr support and we are successfully playing owr cards to block your wepons supply lines on which you always boasted so much and from the orignal source of that supply so no matter what name , game you come up with we shall remain a step ahead in the game and all you could do is sulk


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## batmannow

Joseph Goebbels said:


> why should we mind what you do rather we are really happy that you are doing it its only your false ego and racial bravado that dosent lets you see the true fact


Stay on the topic ,
& stop typical biased RSS shyt , messing this thread ?



Joseph Goebbels said:


> every body needs a little bit of humor for entertainment dont they
> 
> thing is we have kashmir and we have both great armed forces and an economy to support them + we have all the powers in the world USA, UK , Europe , Russia , Israel to owr support and we are successfully playing owr cards to block your wepons supply lines on which you always boasted so much and from the orignal source of that supply so no matter what name , game you come up with we shall remain a step ahead in the game and all you could do is sulk


Tell me which & what year , we didn't get the weapons we needed from US or China ,Russia our main arms suppliers because of Indian pressure ?
You will be astonished ,its the other way around if you think about Russia ?


----------



## Joseph Goebbels

batmannow said:


> Stay on the topic ,
> & stop typical biased RSS shyt , messing this thread ?
> 
> 
> Tell me which & what year , we didn't get the weapons we needed from US or China ,Russia our main arms suppliers because of Indian pressure ?
> You will be astonished ,its the other way around if you think about Russia ?


me a RSS 

we dont need to give any proofs to anybody look at the love hate USA pakistan relations ever since kargil misadvanture and you will know what im talking about


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## Abotani

mshahid said:


> What are you thoughts on Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra bose ?


The former is debatable but Bose was definitely akin to terrorists, seeking and taking active support of the nazis and the equally reprehensible Japan during WW2.


----------



## Sipahi

Joseph Goebbels said:


> every body needs a little bit of humor for entertainment dont they
> 
> thing is we have kashmir and we have both great armed forces and an economy to support them + we have all the powers in the world USA, UK , Europe , Russia , Israel to owr support and we are successfully playing owr cards to block your wepons supply lines on which you always boasted so much and from the orignal source of that supply so no matter what name , game you come up with we shall remain a step ahead in the game and all you could do is sulk



Which weapon you blocked actually ??

None... thanks to your efforts Russia removed arm embargo... Thank you India 



Abotani said:


> The former is debatable but Bose was definitely akin to terrorists, seeking and taking active support of the nazis and the equally reprehensible Japan during WW2.



Why Bhagat Singh is debatable, he along with Azad involve in activities which British govt consider terrorism ?

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## Abotani

mshahid said:


> Why Bhagat Singh is debatable, he along with Azad involve in activities which British govt consider terrorism ?


As far as I know, BS didn't target civvies to spread fear and terror to achieve his aims. If you have any other source which states otherwise, feel free to share, for I admit I don't care much for subcontinent's freedom efforts; so I never bothered to read much about individuals.
The reason why British left had more to do with ww2 and the pressure to decolonise exerted by USA, no matter how Indians try to claim otherwise.


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## batmannow

Joseph Goebbels said:


> me a RSS
> 
> we dont need to give any proofs to anybody look at the love hate USA pakistan relations ever since kargil misadvanture and you will know what im talking about



Deficient equipment: No parachutes in Indian Army for over a decade, says report - World - DAWN.COM

Looks like that India is in deep need , of USA to equip it, with basic arms & equipment ?lolzz


& you should check since kargill , how much weapons we have got from USA ?
If you can , see from records ?
Since kargill , Pakistan has come more closer to USA ,off course we have difference of opinion on many issues , but at the same time , USA don't want to , be losted in Afghanistan as soviets were ?
No way , USA can afford that ?
nor , it wants to let the only Muslim nuclear power going to its opposite camp , or in support of other Muslim countries like IRAN ?
So , for them , even if they don't want to support Pakistan , they have no other option to not support Pakistan ?
On the other hand , Pakistan is already out of American majic box long time ago?
China & Russia can form a solid block ,with Pakistan , Iran , Iraq , sirya against Americans & their so called allies in the region ?
Right now Pakistan , is just testing Americans to give it , a reason , a excuse which can let it openly , buy Russian weaponry ?
Do you think , america will ever let it happen , specially when its forces are in Afghanistan ?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Its funny becasue , weapons are sold to India

Apache
P8

etc with out concern of technology falling into Russian hands

Who just bought S400 from Russia , rubbing salt in US eyes


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## wiseone2

mshahid said:


> Most of the India wont agree with you on that



you seem like a rational person
tell me the wisdom of joining forces with Axis powers in World War 2. you have to be naive or ignorant or blinded by hatred of the British

he lucked out in that the Axis powers lost


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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> you seem like a rational person
> tell me the wisdom of joining forces with Axis powers in World War 2. you have to be naive or ignorant or blinded by hatred of the British
> 
> he lucked out in that the Axis powers lost



Tum mujhe khoon do, mein tumhain azadi dun ga ..... Subhash Chandra bose

I think he was fed up with Mr.Gandhi's style of politics and he find this way easy.


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## wiseone2

mshahid said:


> Tum mujhe khoon do, mein tumhain azadi dun ga ..... Subhash Chandra bose
> 
> I think he was fed up with Mr.Gandhi's style of politics and he find this way easy.



in retrospect it is clear that kicking the British out is the easiest job


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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> in retrospect it is clear that kicking the British out is the easiest job



Almost all the armed struggles failed against British empire in South Asia, and Mr Subhash was designated to be failed.


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## waz

Slave_to_the_waffle said:


> @waz however would like to see the Type 216 sold to Pakistan for that reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But of course this isn't actually outlandish considering submarines are used to insert covert operatives conducting counter-terrorism:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if the submarine doesn't have a lockout chamber:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like @waz was on the right track, Germany should offer Pakistan the Type 216 for counter-terrorism purposes.



Lol, that made me laugh hard.


----------



## haviZsultan

Why do we buy from America anyway?


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## Capt.Popeye

haviZsultan said:


> Why do we buy from America anyway?



If you really want an answer to that; then direct that questions to the Gernails in GHQ.


----------



## TMA

haviZsultan said:


> Why do we buy from America anyway?



Pakistan should disengage with the US and NATO. It would be a wise step. And a wiser step would be to cultivate a strong relationship with the Russian Federation.

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## wiseone2

mshahid said:


> Almost all the armed struggles failed against British empire in South Asia, and Mr Subhash was designated to be failed.



kicking the british was the easy part. getting rid of our corrupt elites is an ongoing struggle

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## Sipahi

wiseone2 said:


> kicking the british was the easy part. getting rid of our corrupt elites is an ongoing struggle



It will take another 100 years in south Asia


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## SQ8

Viper0011. said:


> Really?? You truly think the largest economy on the globe is REALLY worried about a few hundred jobs and EIGHT jets??
> 
> And you think we have no national pride or respect for our country? You need to wake up and look around. We've been in Afghanistan for over a decade and a half due to our national pride. And it has cost us trillions. Not sure how a billion dollar worth of deal is such a big deal!!
> 
> The US has respected Pakistan as a partner and has worked with her for decades. But if there will be attacks on us, trust me, even a 1000 jobs won't matter!!



The day is not far when SOCOM will be roaming around Pakistani nuke facilities conducting raids and neutralizing facilities and all the bravado along with love for General Raheel will leave people in tears due to helplessness.


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## mingle

Oscar said:


> The day is not far when SOCOM will be roaming around Pakistani nuke facilities conducting raids and neutralizing facilities and all the bravado along with love for General Raheel will leave people in tears due to helplessness.


Yeh Nuclear weapons r sitting on yonge st go and grab it it wont work like that .Rest if it is possible will done long time ago it wont like that .Rest Broke Bankrupt America has nothing left tooths borken pie eaton by enemies pitty situation shaking hand with enemies what u trying to prove ??My friend those days gone if that easy been done over iran long time .


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> Yeh Nuclear weapons r sitting on yonge st go and grab it it wont work like that .Rest if it is possible will done long time ago it wont like that .Rest Broke Bankrupt America has nothing left tooths borken pie eaton by enemies pitty situation shaking hand with enemies what u trying to prove ??My friend those days gone if that easy been done over iran long time .


Sure. If that makes you comfortable. Considering that they've already strolled right next to the military academy and walked away easily.

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## mingle

Oscar said:


> Sure. If that makes you comfortable. Considering that they've already strolled right next to the military academy and walked away easily.


Yeh that was different thing this is different we talking about day & nite better read Seymour harsh story I don't beleive on conspiracy show me his dead body.My friend facts r facts America was a super power not now things changed last 14 yrs .you better read Urdu article written by Ghulam Abbas called Over Coat that what today America is ,,
Pakistan was is & will remain Nuclear power at this I have no douts America is Neutralize camel back is broken just over coat is left .


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Oscar said:


> Sure. If that makes you comfortable. Considering that they've already strolled right next to the military academy and walked away easily.


That was a focussed operation with narrowly defined goals and a specific target. Neither the target (OBL) nor the goals (neutralizing AQ leadership) were of importance to Pakistan's National security (considering he was not suspected to be in Pakistan).

That said, I'm not denying that the US has the military capabilities to destroy (missile, drone, bombers) Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure of it wanted to, but you're not going to see SOCOM on the ground in any such action, without Pakistan's ground forces being neutralized first.

Even US missile, drone, bomber attacks are out of the question unless a major terrorist attack on US soil is traced back to Pakistani State institutions, or the Pakistan Army collapses in its current form.

More and more it appears that the US born and bred husband in the husband-wife terrorist duo in San Bernardino, who seemingly never visited Pakistan, was radicalized and building pipe bombs with his neighbor long before meeting Tashfeen Malik.

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## mingle

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That was a focussed operation with narrowly defined goals and a specific target. Neither the target (OBL) nor the goals (neutralizing AQ leadership) were of importance to Pakistan's National security (considering he was not suspected to be in Pakistan).
> 
> That said, I'm not denying that the US has the military capabilities to destroy (missile, drone, bombers) Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure of it wanted to, but you're not going to see SOCOM on the ground in any such action, without Pakistan's ground forces being neutralized first.
> 
> Even US missile, drone, bomber attacks are out of the question unless a major terrorist attack on US soil is traced back to Pakistani State institutions, or the Pakistan Army collapses in its current form.
> 
> More and more it appears that the US born and bred husband in the husband-wife terrorist duo in San Bernardino, who seemingly never visited Pakistan, was radicalized and building pipe bombs with his neighbor long before meeting Tashfeen Malik.


That is one case rest 349 shooting ?where they brainwashed ?terrorism is terrorism with different shapes and origins not define with certain sects or religions .ppl forgot 349 shoots only one they rubbing reason they were Muslims and Browns that's it shows how sick and broken American society has become Obama should look at home first than outside world .


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## SQ8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That was a focussed operation with narrowly defined goals and a specific target. Neither the target (OBL) nor the goals (neutralizing AQ leadership) were of importance to Pakistan's National security (considering he was not suspected to be in Pakistan).
> 
> That said, I'm not denying that the US has the military capabilities to destroy (missile, drone, bombers) Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure of it wanted to, but you're not going to see SOCOM on the ground in any such action, without Pakistan's ground forces being neutralized first.
> 
> Even US missile, drone, bomber attacks are out of the question unless a major terrorist attack on US soil is traced back to Pakistani State institutions, or the Pakistan Army collapses in its current form.
> 
> More and more it appears that the US born and bred husband in the husband-wife terrorist duo in San Bernardino, who seemingly never visited Pakistan, was radicalized and building pipe bombs with his neighbor long before meeting Tashfeen Malik.


I would disagree. The impact of that trust on Pakistan's security has been massive. Whereas there was just an idea of Pakistan being two timing, now there is both open and closed talk of neutralizing Pakistan or enabling India to do so effectively. 

SOCOM will come and carry out operation with impunity regardless of Pakistani ground forces simply because they have the capability to establish near instantaneous air dominance in Pakistan and via that threaten any Pakistani ground forces with certain destruction if they try to intervene. 
Salala is just an example of what 1/10th the US military is capable of when it comes to taking down a conventionally prepped force like Pakistan.


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## war&peace

Irfan Baloch said:


> guilty by association lol. very heartfelt and emotional arguments right from the bollywood movie.
> Indian lobby must spend more money so that such opposition doesnt fail yet again when despite everything the sales did take place.


You mean I can be an instant billionaire by exporting burnol to India?


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## CHD

Oscar said:


> I would disagree. The impact of that trust on Pakistan's security has been massive. Whereas there was just an idea of Pakistan being two timing, now there is both open and closed talk of neutralizing Pakistan or enabling India to do so effectively.
> 
> SOCOM will come and carry out operation with impunity regardless of Pakistani ground forces simply because they have the capability to establish near instantaneous air dominance in Pakistan and via that threaten any Pakistani ground forces with certain destruction if they try to intervene.
> Salala is just an example of what 1/10th the US military is capable of when it comes to taking down a conventionally prepped force like Pakistan.


So do you have any suggestions? or you just like to critisize like Mastan khan,Hussain haqqani and other Pakistani americans, which is common factor found among these people

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## SQ8

Gamer-X said:


> So do you have any suggestions? or you just like to critisize like Mastan khan,Hussain haqqani and other Pakistani americans, which is common factor found among these people


Considering I became one a year ago, I have all the suggestions out there...what makes you any different for me to repeat them. Do you have anything beyond sticking to a "I am who I am" attitude like the millions of your fellow countrymen?


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## mingle

Oscar said:


> I would disagree. The impact of that trust on Pakistan's security has been massive. Whereas there was just an idea of Pakistan being two timing, now there is both open and closed talk of neutralizing Pakistan or enabling India to do so effectively.
> 
> SOCOM will come and carry out operation with impunity regardless of Pakistani ground forces simply because they have the capability to establish near instantaneous air dominance in Pakistan and via that threaten any Pakistani ground forces with certain destruction if they try to intervene.
> Salala is just an example of what 1/10th the US military is capable of when it comes to taking down a conventionally prepped force like Pakistan.


I would disagree with u not getting point what we talking about .Nuclear weapons r not like regular warheads or stockpiles if that easy Iran might be very easy then ?north Korea has one or few that very easy pak security compromised at salala but Hersh don't agree that they came they picked gone .pak without nuclear teeth is not interest of us aswell it's a check on India so the India check over pak vice versa .its not movie it won't be like a video game .


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## CHD

Oscar said:


> Considering I became one a year ago, I have all the suggestions out there...what makes you any different for me to repeat them. Do you have anything beyond sticking to a "I am who I am" attitude like the millions of your fellow countrymen?


So then do constructive criticisim, dont discourage people that dosen't do any good


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> I would disagree with u not getting point what we talking about .Nuclear weapons r not like regular warheads or stockpiles if that easy Iran might be very easy then ?north Korea has one or few that very easy pak security compromised at salala but Hersh don't agree that they came they picked gone .pak without nuclear teeth is not interest of us aswell it's a check on India so the India check over pak vice versa .its not movie it won't be like a video game .



There is no need for it to be a video game but at the same time it will be. No one is going to pick nukes up and load them up in a chopper to leave. Securing weapons means securing command and control, securing deployment and so on. Sadly, in our case.. the main arm that is the command and control is already compromised. That leaves the stragglers with the ten or so weapons who will try to set a rudimentary or older device off in a last ditch effort. It is those that need securing, and securing 10 weapons may not be so difficult. 

However, future SOCOM operations will focus around hitting Taliban leadership that is in the more populated areas of Pakistan. So Quetta and other areas where the Haqqani and other establishment connections will be hit just as easily as Osama was in Abbotabad. 
It is not a "if so and so happens" scenario but a very real one that is a known at US military circles.



Gamer-X said:


> So then do constructive criticisim, dont discourage people that dosen't do any good


What constructive crtique? Why dont you get up and start reading my posts.. perhaps you might find what you are looking for. There is only discouragement left for folks who continue shouting conspiracy theories at terrorism and turn a blind eye to extremism.


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## mingle

Gamer-X said:


> So do you have any suggestions? or you just like to critisize like Mastan khan,Hussain haqqani and other Pakistani americans, which is common factor found among these people


It's paranoia situation they live in I don't mind they have right to live in this state of mind .Buddy of mine worked at KRL now very top Banana at Suparco .Discussed in detail about this issue whole pak military and national security doctrine based on nuclear threshold so what these fellows talking about is possible in Hollywood movie not in real world .Hussain Haqqni need to remove his wig so his brain get some fresh air wil help him a lot .


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> It's paranoia situation they live in I don't mind they have right to live in this state of mind .Buddy of mine worked at KRL now very top Banana at Suparco .Discussed in detail about this issue whole pak military and national security doctrine based on nuclear threshold so what these fellows talking about is possible in Hollywood movie not in real world .Hussain Haqqni need to remove his wig so his brain get some fresh air wil help him a lot .


Sure, buddy of mine and phuppas cousin and so on. I wonder how many chachas and phuppas made it to leading NESCOM and others within the last year I moved to the US. I am guessing none and their bravado not withstanding; the Salala incident is going to be repeated in the near future.


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## mingle

Oscar said:


> There is no need for it to be a video game but at the same time it will be. No one is going to pick nukes up and load them up in a chopper to leave. Securing weapons means securing command and control, securing deployment and so on. Sadly, in our case.. the main arm that is the command and control is already compromised. That leaves the stragglers with the ten or so weapons who will try to set a rudimentary or older device off in a last ditch effort. It is those that need securing, and securing 10 weapons may not be so difficult.
> 
> However, future SOCOM operations will focus around hitting Taliban leadership that is in the more populated areas of Pakistan. So Quetta and other areas where the Haqqani and other establishment connections will be hit just as easily as Osama was in Abbotabad.
> It is not a "if so and so happens" scenario but a very real one that is a known at US military circles.
> 
> 
> What constructive crtique? Why dont you get up and start reading my posts.. perhaps you might find what you are looking for. There is only discouragement left for folks who continue shouting conspiracy theories at terrorism and turn a blind eye to extremism.


Nothing will happen as I said 14 yrs passed another 14 will plate is too big than US can handle there is known leadership of talibs live in Qutta just reffereing Qutta shora meant nothing .Rest u meant sharing nuclear button with America ?first they should do North Korea which few start from there .


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> Nothing will happen as I said 14 yrs passed another 14 will plate is too big than US can handle there is known leadership of talibs live in Qutta just reffereing Qutta shora meant nothing .Rest u meant sharing nuclear button with America ?first they should do North Korea which few start from there .


They are prep ping for NK here. Lots of troops hint about it.


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## mingle

Oscar said:


> Sure, buddy of mine and phuppas cousin and so on. I wonder how many chachas and phuppas made it to leading NESCOM and others within the last year I moved to the US. I am guessing none and their bravado not withstanding; the Salala incident is going to be repeated in the near future.


Sure Budd will see what will happen let ur friends come with choppers and load them with bombs .



Oscar said:


> They are prep ping for NK here. Lots of troops hint about it.


All military have planes about theior future ops this is nothing new India does it so the pak so US .How many of them excecute may be none or all .Hagel said few days ago we were ready to Bomb Damacus but Obama Ran away at last moment so planing is there it's not new .


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## CHD

Oscar said:


> They are prep ping for NK here. Lots of troops hint about it.


What if Pakistan have stationed around some 20-30 nukes in china? is USA going for them too.After attacking Pakistan, how will KSA react which considers Pakistan its nuclear umbrella and what about china whose one general has openely said to USA that Pakistan is our ISRAEL.

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## Viper0011.

mingle said:


> Yeh that was different thing this is different we talking about day & nite better read Seymour harsh story I don't beleive on conspiracy show me his dead body.My friend facts r facts America was a super power not now things changed last 14 yrs .you better read Urdu article written by Ghulam Abbas called Over Coat that what today America is ,,
> Pakistan was is & will remain Nuclear power at this I have no douts America is Neutralize camel back is broken just over coat is left .



Fools....rush in please. Man, you do need to go to Wiki and read up on the US's military strength. And stuff on Wiki is actually old......

What has happened in 14 years? I'll tell you, we now have Lasers on jets, a few squadrons of F-35's, more F-22's, and the list goes on and on. Not to mention the sexy chick in my avatar is still undetectable , even after B-2's being in operations for like 3 decades....no real match or "tech advancement" from China till Russia. Just all talk . Welcome to the planet Earth!! The US hasn't changed much militarily. I don't know how they let you into Canada. Do they not make sure you at the least have an IQ of a high school graduate????

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## mingle

Gamer-X said:


> What if Pakistan have stationed around some 20-30 nukes in china? is USA going for them too.After attacking Pakistan, how will KSA react which considers Pakistan its nuclear umbrella and what about china whose one general has openely said to USA that Pakistan is our ISRAEL.


Mark my words US cannot do it by military means there is zero chances of success and political fall out is huge for US .At the moment they trying to make ties better with pak they need pak military help in A-stan and in middleeast the recent 34 countries allience under saudi command is sign that they might need pak military mussle againest DAESH .



Viper0011. said:


> Fools....rush in please. Man, you do need to go to Wiki and read up on the US's military strength. And stuff on Wiki is actually old......
> 
> What has happened in 14 years? I'll tell you, we now have Lasers on jets, a few squadrons of F-35's, more F-22's, and the list goes on and on. Not to mention the sexy chick in my avatar is still undetectable , even after B-2's being in operations for like 3 decades....no real match or "tech advancement" from China till Russia. Just all talk . Welcome to the planet Earth!! The US hasn't changed much militarily. I don't know how they let you into Canada. Do they not make sure you at the least have an IQ of a high school graduate????


Americans r fool there is no dout in my mind yeh Dum too when russia went Bankrupt how big his military mussle was any idea ?come out from southern mentality will make u better world is bigger than America super power rises and falls history is full of them f they wont fall Romans still super power wake up .Sell pak jets if u wana save some jobs other wise more Americans gonna join job seekers party .


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## Viper0011.

Gamer-X said:


> What if Pakistan have stationed around some 20-30 nukes in china? is USA going for them too.After attacking Pakistan, how will KSA react which considers Pakistan its nuclear umbrella and what about china whose one general has openely said to USA that Pakistan is our ISRAEL.



I don't think the US and Pakistan should ever get to a war like situation. That would be too bad as there is a 60 years long relationship between the two. Yes, its been a rocky relationship but still. You really think in a confrontation, KSA will actually "do" something beyond verbal statements of "solidarity" (as you guys call it in Pakistan)????

And on China, you think China would risk their own 1.3 billion citizens future at risk if the US really had a reason to go to war? I think people like you should open their eyes up and quit smoking the stuff you've been on. Its pretty obvious that your "judgment" is pretty impaired!!

Lastly, I don't know why we are talking about this situation. Its either blaming America for all evil inside Pakistani society or these grandiose statements of "fighting a war". How about for a change, you guys write something on economy or on other projects, or how the US and Pakistan can build a better relationship and a future? Doing these silly comparisons with the world's strongest military doesn't make sense.



mingle said:


> Americans r fool there is no dout in my mind yeh Dum too when russia went Bankrupt how big his military mussle was any idea ?come out from southern mentality will make u better world is bigger than America super power rises and falls history is full of them f they wont fall Romans still super power wake up .Sell pak jets if u wana save some jobs other wise more Americans gonna join job seekers party .



How old are you? Reading your posts seems like you are a 12 year old kid who just came to Canada and still aren't over the "Pakistan's military muscle"!!

Russians didn't have a 16 trillion strong economy, nor their currency ruled the world, and nor did they had even 30% of the innovation and businesses the US enjoys. Big giant military is one thing. Big giant economy supporting that military is something totally different. I don't think you have a slight clue of what I am talking about. So how about you not stupid respond and stupidity this entire thread, that's already derailed?? I don't mind debating as long as the other person has some common sense. 

Super powers rise and fall, everyone knows that. But right now, and for the past 60 years and for the next 30 years, I don't see the US falling anywhere. So your post is dealing with today. And the US is the super power, period. On the jets, really, fools like you think we need 50 jobs for 8 jets? REALLY?

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## mingle

Viper0011. said:


> I don't think the US and Pakistan should ever get to a war like situation. That would be too bad as there is a 60 years long relationship between the two. Yes, its been a rocky relationship but still. You really think in a confrontation, KSA will actually "do" something beyond verbal statements of "solidarity" (as you guys call it in Pakistan)????
> 
> And on China, you think China would risk their own 1.3 billion citizens future at risk if the US really had a reason to go to war? I think people like you should open their eyes up and quit smoking the stuff you've been on. Its pretty obvious that your "judgment" is pretty impaired!!
> 
> Lastly, I don't know why we are talking about this situation. Its either blaming America for all evil inside Pakistani society or these grandiose statements of "fighting a war". How about for a change, you guys write something on economy or on other projects, or how the US and Pakistan can build a better relationship and a future? Doing these silly comparisons with the world's strongest military doesn't make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> How old are you? Reading your posts seems like you are a 12 year old kid who just came to Canada and still aren't over the "Pakistan's military muscle"!!
> 
> Russians didn't have a 16 trillion strong economy, nor their currency ruled the world, and nor did they had even 30% of the innovation and businesses the US enjoys. Big giant military is one thing. Big giant economy supporting that military is something totally different. I don't think you have a slight clue of what I am talking about. So how about you not stupid respond and stupidity this entire thread, that's already derailed?? I don't mind debating as long as the other person has some common sense.
> 
> Super powers rise and fall, everyone knows that. But right now, and for the past 60 years and for the next 30 years, I don't see the US falling anywhere. So your post is dealing with today. And the US is the super power, period. On the jets, really, fools like you think we need 50 jobs for 8 jets? REALLY?


Well the way lawmakers wineing it seems to be a big deal u think pak cares about 8 jets if US says No ??tell me ?pak can buy jets rom any other country if they have cash in hand ?But we promise to give guys more bussiness to save ur jobs next order will be bigger above 30 numbers .Be happy what u get now adays gone those days pisram sultan bood .


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Oscar said:


> ... now there is both open and closed talk of neutralizing Pakistan or enabling India to do so effectively.


To what end?

Having the capability and feigned outrage over an OBL operation (that the US herself chose to leave Pakistan in the dark about, despite Pakistan having neutralized KSM and many other senior AQ operatives) is one thing, having some sort of feasible end goal as a result of the required massive military operation/s quite another.

There is no situation better than the status quo that will arise out of a US military operation on Pakistani soil that attempts to neutralize all of Pakistan's nuclear weapons infrastructure.


> Salala is just an example of what 1/10th the US military is capable of when it comes to taking down a conventionally prepped force like Pakistan.


Salala is an example of a remote infantry border check-post with no anti-air defenses being obliterated by heavy aerial bombardment, by an ally no less, at night. It didn't require SOCOM just as any aerial bombing of Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure will not really require SOCOM unless SOCOM forces want to take casualties within the various nuclear complexes while attempting to secure them via troops on the ground.

I'm any case, given that the Pakistan military is not going to just let an all out and unprovoked military assault on Pakistan go unchallenged, any US assault on Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure will essentially be an all out war against Pakistan, that will have to neutralize the conventional military as part of the goal of securing the nuclear weapons, and what possible advantage does destroying Pakistan's military and allowing The next strongest military group (religious extremists) a path to power achieve for the US in terms of 'anti-terrorism objectives'?

Without the Pakistan Army, the Pakistani moderates have the same chance as the Shia and Yazidi in Iraq against groups like Daesh, LEJ, TTP etc.

So, again, xenophobic and anti Moozlum hate driven drivel by US commentators and troops aside, what's the US end goal from the hypothetical military operation being discussed here?

Turning Pakistan into another Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia?

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## VCheng

Why fight at all when slow economic strangulation will work even better?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Why fight at all when slow economic strangulation will work even better?


What's the end goal of 'slow economic strangulation'? When's this 'slow economic strangulation' going to begin (US AID doesn't count)?


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> What's the end goal of 'slow economic strangulation'? When's this 'slow economic strangulation' going to begin (US AID doesn't count)?



Exactly my point. There is no need to fight with Pakistan. At all.


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## CHD

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Exactly my point. There is no need to fight with Pakistan. At all.


Why are you so negative in every post in every thread?are you trying to be too smart?Does your wife beats you in the morning or someone dont give you enough breakfast?Or have you taken some classes from Hussain Haqqani?

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## GoldenRatio1618

Leave the American they play with Pakistan when they see Pakistan is going for other option they propose sale and send bill to administration when they see Pakistan is not going to leave American market they oppose it or make hurdles every time....

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## mingle

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Exactly my point. There is no need to fight with Pakistan. At all.


True ishaq $$ is working on this agenda but main players in pak r aware of these games wont work either just a little fiscal manegment does wonders for pak looking farward for new govt in pak .



GoldenRatio1618 said:


> Leave the American they play with Pakistan when they see Pakistan is going for other option they propose sale and send bill to administration when they see Pakistan is not going to leave American market they oppose it or make hurdles every time....


I dont thing 8 jets will make any difference .F 16 lines r closing i think in next two yrs this order is blessing for yanks LCM knows there will be more order from pak as well down the road .pak has other options now when u paying from ur own pocket u can buy from anywhere .this deal will go through any way .


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## VCheng

mingle said:


> True ishaq $$ is working on this agenda but main players in pak r aware of these games wont work either just a little fiscal manegment does wonders for pak looking farward for new govt in pak .



The total debt of Pakistan is now over $90 billion, and rising. That is a wondrous testament to the fiscal management, or, more accurately, the lack thereof.



Gamer-X said:


> Why are you so negative in every post in every thread?are you trying to be too smart?Does your wife beats you in the morning or someone dont give you enough breakfast?Or have you taken some classes from Hussain Haqqani?



Please read my signature.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Exactly my point. There is no need to fight with Pakistan. At all.


So you see no US goals being met through military or economic conflict with Pakistan, given the current Pakistan military dynamics?


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> So you see no US goals being met through military or economic conflict with Pakistan, given the current Pakistan military dynamics?



Not at all. Pakistan's stability serves US national interests. Clearly.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Not at all. Pakistan's stability serves US national interests. Clearly.


I agree with you on that - that was the gist of my previous posts. 

I asked for the clarification because your response to my comments was interpreted by some Pakistani posters as 'negative' or 'anti-Pakistan' - this helps set the record straight, no?


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I agree with you on that - that was the gist of my previous posts.
> 
> I asked for the clarification because your response to my comments was interpreted by some Pakistani posters as 'negative' or 'anti-Pakistan' - this helps set the record straight, no?



Some are too busy in attacking me personally because they cannot respond to the content of my posts, as my signature says. That is their problem, not mine. 

Pakistan remains an important country in its own right for USA. Pakistan's nuclear weapons have contributed to the longest period of peace without all out war in South Asia. Why would USA want to disturb the balance that was achieved with its own help in the first place? 

Besides, if USA wanted to de-nuclearize Pakistan - which it clearly does not - there are much better ways to do so as I mentioned above. There is simply no need for war. At all. Now is there anything anti-Pakistan in saying that? Nope.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Pakistan remains an important country in its own right for USA. Pakistan's nuclear weapons have contributed to the longest period of peace without all out war in South Asia. Why would USA want to disturb the balance that was achieved with its own help in the first place?


That said, @Oscar is correct about a significant amount of anti-Pakistan sentiment in the US military (especially in the lower level officers and recruits) and in the chattering classes (Christine Fair, Lisa Curtis etc etc). The former is driven by extended exposure through deployments in Afghanistan and with the ANA and NDS (the latter especially feeding volumes of concocted intelligence along the lines of the MSF Hospital being run by the ISI to US intelligence and military). 

However, anti-Pakistan sentiment, even if it was justified, is not a substitute for rational policy making that weighs the pros and cons of punitive actions (military or economic) in furthering US National interests over time. Unless US policy makers are really deluded enough to view China as an enemy equivalent to the USSR during the height of the Cold War, the destabilization of Pakistan via military and/or economic means (as part of a larger strategy to weaken China by freeing up India and basing Uighur terrorists in a destabilized Pakistan), makes no sense in a world that is increasingly bound through economic ties and in which the Chinese economy plays a massive role.


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> That said, @Oscar is correct about a significant amount of anti-Pakistan sentiment in the US military (especially in the lower level officers and recruits) and in the chattering classes (Christine Fair, Lisa Curtis etc etc). The former is driven by extended exposure through deployments in Afghanistan and with the ANA and NDS (the latter especially feeding volumes of concocted intelligence along the lines of the MSF Hospital being run by the ISI to US intelligence and military).
> 
> However, anti-Pakistan sentiment, even if it was justified, is not a substitute for rational policy making that weighs the pros and cons of punitive actions (military or economic) in furthering US National interests over time. Unless US policy makers are really deluded enough to view China as an enemy equivalent to the USSR during the height of the Cold War, the destabilization of Pakistan via military and/or economic means (as part of a larger strategy to weaken China by freeing up India and basing Uighur terrorists in a destabilized Pakistan), makes no sense in a world that is increasingly bound through economic ties and in which the Chinese economy plays a massive role.



US policy will remain geared towards serving US interests, and for now, that includes Pakistan an an important country to ally with. I see no problems here for the time being, given that nothing in international politics is permanent. 

Pakistan has the sovereign right to pursue its own policies to serve its own national interests. If things change, for example if a few more Pakistanis attack inside USA, then both sides need to see what each needs to do. That is the way it works. 

Nothing surprising or anti-Pakistan or anti-USA in saying that either.


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## SipahSalar

Since when is an F-16 worth $165million?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> If things change, for example if a few more Pakistanis attack inside USA, then both sides need to see what each needs to do.


What I see is that a radicalized American learn to build pipe bombs with another American (neither of whom had been to Pakistan), one of whom married a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia, ostensibly brainwashed her and carried out a terrorist attack in San Bernardino.

Where's the 'more Pakistanis' in here? Sounds like the US needs to get a handle on domestic radicalization in the US, which in my view partly needs to be through supporting reformist Islamic research and scholars through educational grants and funds etc.


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> What I see is that a radicalized American learn to build pipe bombs with another American (neither of whom had been to Pakistan), one of whom married a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia, ostensibly brainwashed her and carried out a terrorist attack in San Bernardino.
> 
> Where's the 'more Pakistanis' in here? Sounds like the US needs to get a handle on domestic radicalization in the US, which in my view partly needs to be through supporting reformist Islamic research and scholars through educational grants and funds etc.



You are entitled to your views, but unfortunately things work differently in US media, as opposed to Pakistan, as you very well know. Trying to pretend that the Times Square Bomber and the San Bernardino killers were not connected to Pakistan and the vicious anti-Americanism there, will not work, Sir, in my view.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Trying to pretend that the Times Square Bomber and the San Bernardino killers were not connected to Pakistan and the vicious anti-Americanism there, will not work, Sir, in my view.


Did the husband visit Pakistan? He was born in the US, educated in the US, learned to build pipe bombs in the US, and was radicalized in the US - and he had a brother who served in the US military with distinction.

What's Pakistan's role in this?


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Did the husband visit Pakistan? He was born in the US, educated in the US, learned to build pipe bombs in the US, and was radicalized in the US - and he had a brother who served in the US military with distinction.
> 
> What's Pakistan's role in this?



As I said, you may keep thinking whatever you want. It is your right. Others will do the same according to their own thoughts. Eventually, all the inputs make their way into US policies by due process.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> As I said, you may keep thinking whatever you want. It is your right. Others will do the same according to their own thoughts. Eventually, all the inputs make their way into US policies by due process.


You appear to disagree with the fact that the husband was radicalized in the US with no influence from Pakistan? Why? Why was his brother, raised in the same environment, immune to radicalization and served with distinction in the US military?

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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> You appear to disagree with the fact that the husband was radicalized in the US with no influence from Pakistan? Why? Why was his brother, raised in the same environment, immune to radicalization and served with distinction in the US military?



Well, it won't be the first time that we agree to disagree and move on.


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## rockstar08

Oscar said:


> The day is not far when SOCOM will be roaming around Pakistani nuke facilities conducting raids and neutralizing facilities and all the bravado along with love for General Raheel will leave people in tears due to helplessness.



even if for argument sake we consider what you are saying is right , than it mean US is the Dumbest Country in the world ? what they did in Iraq is still haunting them , the already thousand dead American are not enough ? and yet you are saying that they will attack a Nuclear armed state , oh a Country with a Standing army of 617000 Active troops and almost the same in reserve with a Average Air force and Missile Tech , what makes you think the day US attack us and neutralize our Command and control , our army will be paralyzed ? and we can not order a nuke Strike on US forces in Afghanistan and Gulf ? yes we cant hit the US mainland but we will make sure US wont be able to withhold their title of Super power .. their entire Fleet in Bahrain can be hit along with all bases in Afghanistan , you can do the Maths with Casualties .. and as per Pakistan and its forces ? yes we will have our army to be bombed heavily by US , but than what ? US will send its forces to hold Pakistan ? LOL
forget it yaar , you cant be believing in those fairy tale stories they tell you in US , you know what happen in Iraq when you dismantle a army and leave the infrastructure destroyed ? even if Half of the Army went out to become Jihadi, every US soldier in Pakistani land will leave in a body bag  
let alone the 2 Million armed Tribal , and other Tribes of Quetta and Sindh ... 
Attacking Pakistan will be a nightmare for US , look how they deal with Iran ...we can do it , we will do it and in the end , lets do the peace deal  

and as far as i am concerned , if your country is planning to attack a nuclear state they do have done the maths if the nukes fall into the hands of Extremist after you bomb our army? 
and as for Salala , even if 2-3 soldiers there have anza SAM, results would have been much different  
attacking a check post with poor equipped Soldiers in night time is bravery and tactics ? yeah they can do it again no doubt ... but that will cost some Pampers to US army fighting in Afghanistan

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## VCheng

rockstar08 said:


> even if for argument sake we consider what you are saying is right , than it mean US is the Dumbest Country in the world ? what they did in Iraq is still haunting them , the already thousand dead American are not enough ? and yet you are saying that they will attack a Nuclear armed state , oh a Country with a Standing army of 617000 Active troops and almost the same in reserve with a Average Air force and Missile Tech , what makes you think the day US attack us and neutralize our Command and control , our army will be paralyzed ? and we can not order a nuke Strike on US forces in Afghanistan and Gulf ? yes we cant hit the US mainland but we will make sure US wont be able to withhold their title of Super power .. their entire Fleet in Bahrain can be hit along with all bases in Afghanistan , you can do the Maths with Casualties .. and as per Pakistan and its forces ? yes we will have our army to be bombed heavily by US , but than what ? US will send its forces to hold Pakistan ? LOL
> forget it yaar , you cant be believing in those fairy tale stories they tell you in US , you know what happen in Iraq when you dismantle a army and leave the infrastructure destroyed ? even if Half of the Army went out to become Jihadi, every US soldier in Pakistani land will leave in a body bag
> let alone the 2 Million armed Tribal , and other Tribes of Quetta and Sindh ...
> Attacking Pakistan will be a nightmare for US , look how they deal with Iran ...we can do it , we will do it and in the end , lets do the peace deal
> 
> and as far as i am concerned , if your country is planning to attack a nuclear state they do have done the maths if the nukes fall into the hands of Extremist after you bomb our army?
> and as for Salala , even if 2-3 soldiers there have anza SAM, results would have been much different
> attacking a check post with poor equipped Soldiers in night time is bravery and tactics ? yeah they can do it again no doubt ... but that will cost some Pampers to US army fighting in Afghanistan



Such fearmongering is designed only to reinforce the impression that it is the noble Pak Army against the rest of the world, and only it is brave enough to stand up to evil Uncle Sam. It serves to keep the faithful in line, that is all. A favorite theme peddled at PDF, nothing more.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Well, it won't be the first time that we agree to disagree and move on.


It won't be the first time your inability to provide facts or sources supporting your claims has resulted in a statement of 'agreeing to disagree' either.


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> It won't be the first time your inability to provide facts or sources supporting your claims has resulted in a statement of 'agreeing to disagree' either.



You should read my signature too. 



SipahSalar said:


> Since when is an F-16 worth $165million?



Please feel free to turn the deal down. Nobody is forcing Pakistan to buy these F-16s.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You should read my signature too.


So should you, if only to better understand the distinction between an attack on someone's person vs a statement highlighting the lack of any credible supporting facts/arguments for a position you are taking.

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## batmannow

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Such fearmongering is designed only to reinforce the impression that it is the noble Pak Army against the rest of the world, and only it is brave enough to stand up to evil Uncle Sam. It serves to keep the faithful in line, that is all. A favorite theme peddled at PDF, nothing more.


No the times have changed long ago , but realization of the facts by USA & its so called joker politicians is still too slow ?

Sure Pakistan isn't , is or was the strongest of the military powers on earth , but at the same time america wasn't on the top of world at many times in past or maybe future ?

American military hard ware sales are getting thinner & thinner because , of its ill planned proxy wars & its invasions in the middle east ?

More & more countries in the world are getting out of luxurious & expensive net of military arms ?
& Pakistan has lot more good options on its plate ?


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## VCheng

batmannow said:


> No the times have changed long ago , but realization of the facts by USA & its so called joker politicians is still too slow ?
> 
> Sure Pakistan isn't , is or was the strongest of the military powers on earth , but at the same time america wasn't on the top of world at many times in past or maybe future ?
> 
> American military hard ware sales are getting thinner & thinner because , of its ill planned proxy wars & its invasions in the middle east ?
> 
> More & more countries in the world are getting out of luxurious & expensive net of military arms ?
> & Pakistan has lot more good options on its plate ?



The time have changed, but Pakistan and USA have remained allies. There is no reason for that relationship to change for the foreseeable future.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> So should you, if only to better understand the distinction between an attack on someone's person vs a statement highlighting the lack of any credible supporting facts/arguments for a position you are taking.



You are entitled to your views as I am to mine. If someone fails to see the facts due to intentional blindness, it is not my problem. That is their right which I can respect without a problem. Peace!


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## SipahSalar

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You should read my signature too.
> 
> 
> 
> Please feel free to turn the deal down. Nobody is forcing Pakistan to buy these F-16s.


Stop with the assumptions. I am just questioning the price of the plane. A single F-16 is not worth $165million. An F-35A costs $148million. Anyways there's little point in explaining it to an uninformed person.


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## Basel

@WebMaster please clear this thread from non related posts.

On Topic: If US don't want to sell more weapons then please go ahead with it, as now other nations can fill the gap, because the tech US is offering is not ultramodern, customized J-10B/C or even Mig-35 can fill gap of F-16s if sanctions like 90s are imposed again.

Pakistan knows future frontline fighter jets (5th generation) will not come from US, that is why other options are being explored.

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## batmannow

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The time have changed, but Pakistan and USA have remained allies. There is no reason for that relationship to change for the foreseeable future.
> 
> 
> 
> You are entitled to your views as I am to mine. If someone fails to see the facts due to intentional blindness, it is not my problem. That is their right which I can respect without a problem. Peace!


Being allies doesn't means to be , a repeated bullied military buyer ?
Yes , we have better relationship with USA , & yes we don't want to be stupidly stubborn enough , to let Americans become bad with us , but that not means also to be bullied & humiliated by few stupid politicians from each sides ?
Pakistan has better , & cheaper options available to its military requirements then what American s has to offer ?
We can have mutual beneficial friendship ,not costing our defences ?
I hope , you might have seen , the pakistans official statement regarding sirya ?
It indicates , a 90° change , against the american +ksa +turkeys allied stance in that region ?
If we check , our air force , has more potential to get next , of its hardware induction from China & Russia then compare to USA ?
WHAT ANERICANS can offer us now , its the same decade old Lollypops , we are use to getting over & over again
?
F-16s , cobra hellicoptor gunships ?
& few of their acceosories ?

On the other hand ,China & Russia are the corner stones of our air force ,in 2015 with our thunders being , in the air defending our skies .
& times have really changed , from the point where we having F-16 s in kargill war , & our airforce was unable to fly them , because under american sanctions , & less of techinal & tactical support needed for our air defences .

Americans politicians still not realise that , we don't need their dam F-16s anymore ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You are entitled to your views as I am to mine. If someone fails to see the facts due to intentional blindness, it is not my problem. That is their right which I can respect without a problem. Peace!


I can't see facts that you don't actually provide, like why you believe there is a Pakistani link to the American born, raised and educated San Bernardino husband who never visited Pakistan and who was radicalized and building pipe bombs with another American long before meeting a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia.

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## VCheng

SipahSalar said:


> Stop with the assumptions. I am just questioning the price of the plane. A single F-16 is not worth $165million. An F-35A costs $148million. Anyways there's little point in explaining it to an uninformed person.



The point is that the seller determines the price and the buyer determines if it is worth the value of the goods being sold. Whatever price works for both is the sale price.



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I can't see facts that you don't actually provide, like why you believe there is a Pakistani link to the American born, raised and educated San Bernardino husband who never visited Pakistan and who was radicalized and building pipe bombs with another American long before meeting a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia.



You may deny the link that many others see. You have your vision, others have theirs. No problem here, as far as I can tell.



batmannow said:


> Being allies doesn't means to be , a repeated bullied military buyer ?
> ................
> Americans politicians still not realise that , we don't need their dam F-16s anymore ?



So when is Pakistan saying no to the deal?


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## v9s

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You may deny the link that many others see. You have your vision, others have theirs. No problem here, as far as I can tell.



Stop beating around the bush and provide the man the source to the links you speak of.

The reason for your signature is because you've been told time and time again that you come across as a clever know-it-all. Unfortunately for you, you think it's a great asset to have. Newsflash: It's not, especially if you'd like to get your point across to people. But if you've come here to stroke your ego, go right ahead.



Oscar said:


> Sadly, in our case.. the main arm that is the command and control is already compromised.


How is that so?

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## VCheng

v9s said:


> Stop beating around the bush and provide the man the source to the links you speak of.
> 
> The reason for your signature is because you've been told time and time again that you come across as a clever know-it-all. Unfortunately for you, you think it's a great asset to have. Newsflash: It's not, especially if you'd like to get your point across to people. But if you've come here to stroke your ego, go right ahead.



What has that to do with the topic of this thread? That discussion belongs elsewhere IMO.

Back to the topic, Pakistan has a long policy of getting as many F-16s as it can from any source, due to its long history with the platform. While it is true that PAF can do its job with other equipment, divorcing the F-16 will have its own price.


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## cloud4000

SipahSalar said:


> Stop with the assumptions. I am just questioning the price of the plane. A single F-16 is not worth $165million. An F-35A costs $148million. Anyways there's little point in explaining it to an uninformed person.



I found the price a bit steep two for Block 52s. The price must include engines, spares, and weapons. No way Pakistan is dumb enough to pay $165 million for one air frame. You can get 6-8 JF-17s for that price.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> You may deny the link that many others see.


Please do explain what this Pakistan link, to a man born, raised and educated in America, who never visited Pakistan, whose brother was a decorated US military veteran, and who became radicalized and learned to build pipe bombs with another American, long before he met a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia, is exactly.


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## VCheng

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Please do explain what this Pakistan link, to a man born, raised and educated in America, who never visited Pakistan, whose brother was a decorated US military veteran, and who became radicalized and learned to build pipe bombs with another American, long before he met a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia, is exactly.



I have no need to explain anything. As the OP of this thread tells us, it is the US lawmakers who are discussing what to supply to Pakistan or not, on my (and probably your) behalf. You can make your views heard by your local congresscritter. 



Humble Analyst said:


> This will not go through, wake up rightly or wrongly the scene is changing against Pakistan.



Things always change in cycles in international geopolitics. Nothing new is happening here.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> The day is not far when SOCOM will be roaming around Pakistani nuke facilities conducting raids and neutralizing facilities and all the bravado along with love for General Raheel will leave people in tears due to helplessness.



Highly doubt it, but okay. OBL was limited to one location. Nukes are not in one location for the exact same reason. Problem is, if there is an attack and Army officers see their nukes taken away casually by SOCOM, one or two might just get desperate. That upredictableness is something no one wants.

And just btw, where was this SOCOM when OBL ran away from Afghanistan, right when American forces were bombing like shyt?

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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Highly doubt it, but okay. OBL was limited to one location. Nukes are not in one location for the exact same reason. Problem is, if there is an attack and Army officers see their nukes taken away casually by SOCOM, one or two might just get desperate. That upredictableness is something no one wants.
> 
> And just btw, where was this SOCOM when OBL ran away from Afghanistan, right when American forces were bombing like shyt?



As long as the nukes have no means to deliver them, what good are they? If such a plan were to be implemented (unlikely), the first goal would be to take out the means to deliver them.


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## batmannow

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The point is that the seller determines the price and the buyer determines if it is worth the value of the goods being sold. Whatever price works for both is the sale price.
> 
> 
> 
> You may deny the link that many others see. You have your vision, others have theirs. No problem here, as far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> So when is Pakistan saying no to the deal?


They won't say no until , the point been reached that , USA can't give any more ?
But then , god knows we would be having , what block of our thunders ?
& with some strike squadrons having Russian super strike fighters ?

We won't say no , that's where the trick is ?

but that , will make USA in a weak position , from which they can't bully us any more ?

Our power , will be that , USA can't stop it cause they knows stopping it , will make us more open & resource full ?



Donatello said:


> Highly doubt it, but okay. OBL was limited to one location. Nukes are not in one location for the exact same reason. Problem is, if there is an attack and Army officers see their nukes taken away casually by SOCOM, one or two might just get desperate. That upredictableness is something no one wants.
> 
> And just btw, where was this SOCOM when OBL ran away from Afghanistan, right when American forces were bombing like shyt?


Few peoples knows , that in case of any attack on nuclear weaponry , stratigic forces won't ask permission to fight it out , they have their line of action , & required permissions already been granted with in that procedure ?
They won't ask to any one anything , they will start fighting it ?
& general raheel or any one else ,won't be able to do anything at all ?
They will react , & they have their targets ?
Its not few dam soilders , guarding few boxes of sweets in some garrisons ?


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## wiseone2

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> As long as the nukes have no means to deliver them, what good are they? If such a plan were to be implemented (unlikely), the first goal would be to take out the means to deliver them.



i assume a sucidal crackpot can always detonate one on pakistani soil



batmannow said:


> They won't say no until , the point been reached that , USA can't give any more ?
> But then , god knows we would be having , what block of our thunders ?
> & with some strike squadrons having Russian super strike fighters ?
> 
> We won't say no , that's where the trick is ?
> 
> but that , will make USA in a weak position , from which they can't bully us any more ?
> 
> Our power , will be that , USA can't stop it cause they knows stopping it , will make us more open & resource full ?
> 
> 
> Few peoples knows , that in case of any attack on nuclear weaponry , stratigic forces won't ask permission to fight it out , they have their line of action , & required permissions already been granted with in that procedure ?
> They won't ask to any one anything , they will start fighting it ?
> & general raheel or any one else ,won't be able to do anything at all ?
> They will react , & they have their targets ?
> Its not few dam soilders , guarding few boxes of sweets in some garrisons ?



you are not getting Russian super strike fighters



AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Please do explain what this Pakistan link, to a man born, raised and educated in America, who never visited Pakistan, whose brother was a decorated US military veteran, and who became radicalized and learned to build pipe bombs with another American, long before he met a Pakistani girl raised in Saudi Arabia, is exactly.



pakistani girl raised in saudi arabia spent five years in a pakistani madrasa



TMA said:


> Pakistan should disengage with the US and NATO. It would be a wise step. And a wiser step would be to cultivate a strong relationship with the Russian Federation.



you are free to pursue relationship with Russia. you will find Russia a state on a permanent decline. tens of thousands of best Russian brains have left for the West. $100 oil masked the decline of Russia for the past 10 years


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## Donatello

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> As long as the nukes have no means to deliver them, what good are they? If such a plan were to be implemented (unlikely), the first goal would be to take out the means to deliver them.



You must be joking. The biggest problem with Nukes is not the delivery system. It is the Nuclear material that can be smuggled out and made into a dirty bomb. That is the worst US/European nightmare. Anyone can then carry or detonate a bomb in a western city, just for the sake of it. If psychos like ISIS got their hands on one, they surely wouldn't think twice.

And that my friend is the issue.

Imagine you have secured 119/120 nuclear materials. There is still one that needs to be accounted for. No amount of your SOCOM or DEVGRU or Delta force or anything can do about it. It could be anywhere. A sealed radioactive cannister would be like a needle in a haystack. OBL was captured because he left behind an electronic/wireless trail. A nuke could be sitting in front of you and you wouldn't know.

That is the problem. Not the delivery systems.

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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> You must be joking. The biggest problem with Nukes is not the delivery system. It is the Nuclear material that can be smuggled out and made into a dirty bomb. That is the worst US/European nightmare. Anyone can then carry or detonate a bomb in a western city, just for the sake of it. If psychos like ISIS got their hands on one, they surely wouldn't think twice.
> 
> And that my friend is the issue.
> 
> Imagine you have secured 119/120 nuclear materials. There is still one that needs to be accounted for. No amount of your SOCOM or DEVGRU or Delta force or anything can do about it. It could be anywhere. A sealed radioactive cannister would be like a needle in a haystack. OBL was captured because he left behind an electronic/wireless trail. A nuke could be sitting in front of you and you wouldn't know.
> 
> That is the problem. Not the delivery systems.



This is all UNLIKELY to happen at all, so why get worked up over nothing? There is no real issue here.

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## batmannow

wiseone2 said:


> i assume a sucidal crackpot can always detonate one on pakistani soil
> 
> 
> 
> you are not getting Russian super strike fighters
> 
> 
> 
> pakistani girl raised in saudi arabia spent five years in a pakistani madrasa
> 
> 
> 
> you are free to pursue relationship with Russia. you will find Russia a state on a permanent decline. tens of thousands of best Russian brains have left for the West. $100 oil masked the decline of Russia for the past 10 years


We will , if USA won't give us ?
I can put a link of the statement by dupty forighen minster of Russia in this regurd , which wasn't long ago ?
& BTW our thunder is flying on a Russian engine ?
& just few weeks ago we have inducted fourth of our thunders squadrons in our air inventory ?
Open your eyes , & accept the realities ?lolzz


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## TMA

wiseone2 said:


> i assume a sucidal crackpot can always detonate one on pakistani soil
> 
> 
> 
> you are not getting Russian super strike fighters
> 
> 
> 
> pakistani girl raised in saudi arabia spent five years in a pakistani madrasa
> 
> 
> 
> you are free to pursue relationship with Russia. you will find Russia a state on a permanent decline. tens of thousands of best Russian brains have left for the West. $100 oil masked the decline of Russia for the past 10 years


I wish to raise the awareness with compatriots of become closer to "Roman" Russian Federation. Perhaps instead of going to study in the West go to Russia and cultivate links there. 
Russia is getting stronger everyday.

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## rockstar08

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Such fearmongering is designed only to reinforce the impression that it is the noble Pak Army against the rest of the world, and only it is brave enough to stand up to evil Uncle Sam. It serves to keep the faithful in line, that is all. A favorite theme peddled at PDF, nothing more.



well Pakistani hardly believe that Army is something super natural .. cause we are not the one fighting all kind of aliens in movies LOL
as for my reply , Oscar is decent poster here .. so i was curious why he think like that ? 
without calculating risks and consequences i doubt US will anything of that level Stupidity

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## SQ8

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> To what end?
> 
> Having the capability and feigned outrage over an OBL operation (that the US herself chose to leave Pakistan in the dark about, despite Pakistan having neutralized KSM and many other senior AQ operatives) is one thing, having some sort of feasible end goal as a result of the required massive military operation/s quite another.
> 
> There is no situation better than the status quo that will arise out of a US military operation on Pakistani soil that attempts to neutralize all of Pakistan's nuclear weapons infrastructure.
> 
> Salala is an example of a remote infantry border check-post with no anti-air defenses being obliterated by heavy aerial bombardment, by an ally no less, at night. It didn't require SOCOM just as any aerial bombing of Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure will not really require SOCOM unless SOCOM forces want to take casualties within the various nuclear complexes while attempting to secure them via troops on the ground.
> 
> I'm any case, given that the Pakistan military is not going to just let an all out and unprovoked military assault on Pakistan go unchallenged, any US assault on Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure will essentially be an all out war against Pakistan, that will have to neutralize the conventional military as part of the goal of securing the nuclear weapons, and what possible advantage does destroying Pakistan's military and allowing The next strongest military group (religious extremists) a path to power achieve for the US in terms of 'anti-terrorism objectives'?
> 
> Without the Pakistan Army, the Pakistani moderates have the same chance as the Shia and Yazidi in Iraq against groups like Daesh, LEJ, TTP etc.
> 
> So, again, xenophobic and anti Moozlum hate driven drivel by US commentators and troops aside, what's the US end goal from the hypothetical military operation being discussed here?
> 
> Turning Pakistan into another Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia?



To answer, I would suggest giving this a read
No Exit from Pakistan: America's Tortured Relationship with Islamabad: Daniel S. Markey: 9781107623590: Amazon.com: Books

But to sum it up, there are much more sophisticated weapon systems than the ones that ferried the SEALs over to execute OBL. 
Just a sustained three day campaign by a combination of B-2s and F-22s would leave the Pakistani nuclear command paralysed and the military in utter shock. 

However, just letting the Pakistani military know that the US is capable of doing that is more than enough. Essentially, if required.. US troops can operate freely under the guarantee that Pakistan's capability against India will not be touched and/or any future conflict with India will have the US pushing for ceasefire. 

Even recently US lawmakers are focusing again on the tactical nuclear systems and the debate about Pakistan rages on. It is simply the white house and certain establishment senators that are keeping Pakistan in the good books for now. 

What if a mad hawk like Cruz is elected? What future will that hold for Pakistan?


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## MastanKhan

Donatello said:


> Highly doubt it, but okay. OBL was limited to one location. Nukes are not in one location for the exact same reason. Problem is, if there is an attack and Army officers see their nukes taken away casually by SOCOM, one or two might just get desperate. That upredictableness is something no one wants.
> 
> And just btw, where was this SOCOM when OBL ran away from Afghanistan, right when American forces were bombing like shyt?



Sir,

OBL was let go out of afghanistan towards pakistan for strategic reasons. It was a trump card to be used by the americans when they wanted to.

Don't ever imagine of selling these 'white boyz' short.

Whenever you get the urge---just remember what they did to the Japanese in the 80's---the japanese still have not come out of that loss yet and may never come out either.

If you are too young to remember---in the 80's---the japanese star was rising---they were buying properties left and right in the U S---there came a time when the media started saying that the japs will own the U S---they bought all of Vegas high roller casinos----.

And then americans took the japanese to the cleaners----.

No you may bit-ch and moan for a feel good bit-ching about the U S---as I do at time----but I would be making a fool of myself----if I started believing in it as well.



mingle said:


> Well the way lawmakers wineing it seems to be a big deal u think pak cares about 8 jets if US says No ??tell me ?pak can buy jets rom any other country if they have cash in hand ?But we promise to give guys more bussiness to save ur jobs next order will be bigger above 30 numbers .Be happy what u get now adays gone those days pisram sultan bood .




Sir,

Please stop the silly posts---. With cash in hand---the french have refuse to sell pakistan fighter aircrafts---Sweden is the same---russia may not do it either---korea would also be on the sanction list---so what aircraft are you talking about that you can buy with cash without acting like a A---hole to the seller.

You show to be 40 years old and still have not learnt that it is better to have good relationship to get equipment rather than to flaunt your money around---.



Donatello said:


> You must be joking. The biggest problem with Nukes is not the delivery system. It is the Nuclear material that can be smuggled out and made into a dirty bomb. That is the worst US/European nightmare. Anyone can then carry or detonate a bomb in a western city, just for the sake of it. If psychos like ISIS got their hands on one, they surely wouldn't think twice.
> 
> And that my friend is the issue.
> 
> Imagine you have secured 119/120 nuclear materials. There is still one that needs to be accounted for. No amount of your SOCOM or DEVGRU or Delta force or anything can do about it. It could be anywhere. A sealed radioactive cannister would be like a needle in a haystack. OBL was captured because he left behind an electronic/wireless trail. A nuke could be sitting in front of you and you wouldn't know.
> 
> That is the problem. Not the delivery systems.



Hi,

Those milstar satelites sitting above pakistan can do wonders---at sniffing them.

You are not familiar with pak nuc command and control----. There is no chance of a nuc disappearing----.

The disappearing act only happens when the military breaks down and nation breaks down like in case of russia----different nuc installations became different nations with different standards of security and some with no money to secure them.

Also---the dirty nuc does not have feet of its own---it needs to be transported by people----and all those people are under the microscope---.

So---since the breakdown of soviet union----just take a guess how many people tried to smuggle and use the dirty bomb----possibly above a 25 and below 75----and guess what happened---all of them got caught---you won't read that in the news paper---unless the reporter got there first.

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## Donatello

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> This is all UNLIKELY to happen at all, so why get worked up over nothing? There is no real issue here.



No, it is a very real scenario. Complete collapse of state control, ISIS like entity running wild in Pakistan, that would definitely warrant safe and secure custody of nuclear materials. To hell with delivery systems.


Oscar said:


> To answer, I would suggest giving this a read
> No Exit from Pakistan: America's Tortured Relationship with Islamabad: Daniel S. Markey: 9781107623590: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> But to sum it up, there are much more sophisticated weapon systems than the ones that ferried the SEALs over to execute OBL.
> Just a sustained three day campaign by a combination of B-2s and F-22s would leave the Pakistani nuclear command paralysed and the military in utter shock.
> 
> However, just letting the Pakistani military know that the US is capable of doing that is more than enough. Essentially, if required.. US troops can operate freely under the guarantee that Pakistan's capability against India will not be touched and/or any future conflict with India will have the US pushing for ceasefire.
> 
> Even recently US lawmakers are focusing again on the tactical nuclear systems and the debate about Pakistan rages on. It is simply the white house and certain establishment senators that are keeping Pakistan in the good books for now.
> 
> *What if a mad hawk like Cruz is elected? What future will that hold for Pakistan?*



Cruz, Carson or Trump (since plenty of Americans are actually dumb enough to vote for them) in power, and USA will have to worry about itself more than a mere tactical nukes 10,000 km away.

For the first time in post WW2 history, a developed nation is roaring behind a fascist man. Not good.

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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> No, it is a very real scenario. Complete collapse of state control, ISIS like entity running wild in Pakistan, that would definitely warrant safe and secure custody of nuclear materials. To hell with delivery systems.



Are you saying that "complete collapse of state control, (with) ISIS like entity running wild in Pakistan" is a very real scenario? Really?


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## batmannow

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Are you saying that "complete collapse of state control, (with) ISIS like entity running wild in Pakistan" is a very real scenario? Really?


He is just referring towards some junkyard proxy like ,TTp a few years back , tried their best even getting many good plans , GPRS equipment but they failed because security layers were so much that at a point , they became really , desperate & then , blown up in no where , at some small mentinence building on mehran air base in Karachi ?

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## VCheng

batmannow said:


> He is just referring towards some junkyard proxy like ,TTp a few years back , tried their best even getting many good plans , GPRS equipment but they failed because security layers were so much that at a point , they became really , desperate & then , blown up in no where , at some small mentinence building on mehran air base in Karachi ?



Sure, but why don't we let the TTA clarify what was meant by a "very real scenario" as was described above?


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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Also---the dirty nuc does not have feet of its own---it needs to be transported by people----and all those people are under the microscope---.
> 
> So---since the breakdown of soviet union----just take a guess how many people tried to smuggle and use the dirty bomb----possibly above a 25 and below 75----and guess what happened---all of them got caught---you won't read that in the news paper---unless the reporter got there first.


reminded me of a speech by a Pakistani nuclear scientist who laughed at the idiots who eat the western propaganda garbage about Possible stealing of Pakistani nukes saying they make it sound as if its as simple as smuggling screw driver set by smuggling the components like triggering machinaism, the uranium the containers etc in pockets one at a time and then assemble them out in the back of a car

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## New World

Blue Marlin said:


> each worth an estimated $165 million


*$165 million *


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## Blue Marlin

New World said:


> *$165 million *


would be about less than half of that in reality. on the ultimate highend your looking at $80 million


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> reminded me of a speech by a Pakistani nuclear scientist who laughed at the idiots who eat the western propaganda garbage about Possible stealing of Pakistani nukes saying they make it sound as if its as simple as smuggling screw driver set by smuggling the components like triggering machinaism, the uranium the containers etc in pockets one at a time and then assemble them out in the back of a car



Hi,

People don't understand that there is no safe way to carry fissile material---and specially when it is illegal---you don't have the safety measures in place---.

The radiation would be deadly for the carrier and those assembling it. It would need a specialist to put the equipment together and then shipping it---and basically all those handling it would die of radiation---so basically----by the time they reach europe or america---they could possibly be dying.

If anyone has better or different information that this---please post it.


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## batmannow

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Sure, but why don't we let the TTA clarify what was meant by a "very real scenario" as was described above?


Not everything needs to be explained in a country where , education still is a luxury ,which most of its population really not enjoy ?
Its enough , we have learned the hard way , : no black waters been given free visas to run a wild in Pakistan , we packed them all ?
Even though , first hand was OBL , the target america wants to show the world , its Rambos are still in works , but deadly green brigade didn't allowed it that way , even though Mr Kiyani was fully cooperated , with zardari on that issue , but both been stopped , humilitated , & sent back into their stupid chairs ?
You won't get any , conformations , even if real OBL is sitting, at private spot Miami beach & sipping some good wine , smiling talking to his friend , Mr George w.bush senior ?lolzz
We know that ,they knows that & thats it !
That's why ,they always tell to others Pakistani nucks are in safe hands ,cause they tried & tested !


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## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> People don't understand that there is no safe way to carry fissile material---and specially when it is illegal---you don't have the safety measures in place---.
> 
> The radiation would be deadly for the carrier and those assembling it. It would need a specialist to put the equipment together and then shipping it---and basically all those handling it would die of radiation---so basically----by the time they reach europe or america---they could possibly be dying.
> 
> If anyone has better or different information that this---please post it.



It can be done, if one knows how to do it.


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## Donatello

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Are you saying that "complete collapse of state control, (with) ISIS like entity running wild in Pakistan" is a very real scenario? Really?



It is a plausible scenario in any 'developing country'

ISIS doesn't control all of Syria/Iraq, yet the effects are far and wide.


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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> It is a plausible scenario in any 'developing country'
> 
> ISIS doesn't control all of Syria/Iraq, yet the effects are far and wide.



Not really. As long as the PA remains effective, this scenario will remain highly unlikely.


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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> OBL was let go out of afghanistan towards pakistan for strategic reasons. It was a trump card to be used by the americans when they wanted to.
> 
> Don't ever imagine of selling these 'white boyz' short.
> 
> Whenever you get the urge---just remember what they did to the Japanese in the 80's---the japanese still have not come out of that loss yet and may never come out either.
> 
> If you are too young to remember---in the 80's---the japanese star was rising---they were buying properties left and right in the U S---there came a time when the media started saying that the japs will own the U S---they bought all of Vegas high roller casinos----.
> 
> And then americans took the japanese to the cleaners----.
> 
> No you may bit-ch and moan for a feel good bit-ching about the U S---as I do at time----but I would be making a fool of myself----if I started believing in it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Please stop the silly posts---. With cash in hand---the french have refuse to sell pakistan fighter aircrafts---Sweden is the same---russia may not do it either---korea would also be on the sanction list---so what aircraft are you talking about that you can buy with cash without acting like a A---hole to the seller.
> 
> You show to be 40 years old and still have not learnt that it is better to have good relationship to get equipment rather than to flaunt your money around---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Those milstar satelites sitting above pakistan can do wonders---at sniffing them.
> 
> You are not familiar with pak nuc command and control----. There is no chance of a nuc disappearing----.
> 
> The disappearing act only happens when the military breaks down and nation breaks down like in case of russia----different nuc installations became different nations with different standards of security and some with no money to secure them.
> 
> Also---the dirty nuc does not have feet of its own---it needs to be transported by people----and all those people are under the microscope---.
> 
> So---since the breakdown of soviet union----just take a guess how many people tried to smuggle and use the dirty bomb----possibly above a 25 and below 75----and guess what happened---all of them got caught---you won't read that in the news paper---unless the reporter got there first.



Please read these:
Nuclear Smugglers Tried Selling Radioactive Materials To ISIS

Julian Borger on what has happened to all the radioactive material that has gone missing since the end of the cold war | World news | The Guardian

These tell you of the attempts that have been thwarted......but plenty more are there. It is not as easy as simply sniffing stuff out. Those who know how to make and handle these materials, know how to ship them. Plenty of stuff you can buy on the 'black market' if you have enough cash in hand......and by stuff i don't just mean nuclear material itself, but the carrying equipment, handling procedures etc.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Not really. As long as the PA remains effective, this scenario will remain highly unlikely.


Yes, and i am sure they have counter plans for any such attempt, along with 'SOCOM' roaming freely in Pakistan to seize the materials.

Pakistan has already said, any attempt on it's nuclear sites/ infrastructure by ANY entity, state or non-state would be an act of war.

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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Yes, and i am sure they have counter plans for any such attempt, along with 'SOCOM' roaming freely in Pakistan to seize the materials.
> 
> Pakistan has already said, any attempt on it's nuclear sites/ infrastructure by ANY entity, state or non-state would be an act of war.



Let's look at it this way.

As long as the PA is effective, the nukes are in safe hands. If there is total collapse of the PA, then any actions to retrieve the nukes would be totally justified, and the fact that such action is needed means that there is no effective State to be offended by a declaration of formal war.

Nothing wrong with that approach. As long as there is Pakistan to take care of its own marbles, then others do not need to take care of them at all.


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