# The fraud of Saraswati River - Hindu Myth busted



## Indus Pakistan

No where in the world is history more distorted in the interest of politics then in South Asia. Mountains can be moved literally to fit in with revisionist history. One famous example of this is -

Source > HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA


However there is another one. This is on continental scale. Have a look at the map below of Indus River and it's tributaries. Even a superficial glance will show that Indus flows along axis of Pakistan into the Arabian Sea. It was the centre of what has been called the Indus Valley Civilization with major centres like Harappa and Mohenjo Daro adjacent to or on the banks of the the mighty Indus.







This geographic reality has placed the right wing groups in India in a bind. They claim the IVC as the fountain of Indian civilization however the axis of this, the Indus River is in their arch nemesis - Pakistan. This has been major source of their frustration.

This problem has been resolved by massive distortion of facts on the ground. The axis of the IVC has been shifted east toward India or inside India. Map below.







This has been done by imagining a intermittent stream - the Ghagger-Hakra as a raging river to match mighty Indus and then tracing a line east of the Indus as the route of this river. All this was supported by Hindu myth which spoke of a giant Saraswati River. Thus the Saraswati came alive.

Map below. The intermittent Ghaggar-Hakra (1) marked red. Then the imaginery course of the raging "Saraswati" in black (2) emptying into the Arabian sea.








The final product of this enterprise is the coming to life of the Saraswati River straight from ancient Hindu text which conveniently shifts the axis toward India and loads of non significant IVC sites can be declared as "major" all nicely dotted along this new axis off the IVC far east from the Indus River itself. The centre of gravity has been shifted nicely east away from the arch nemesis. This is the historical version of the "if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, we will bring mountain to Mohammed". In this case "if the river is not in India we will bring the river to India".







So prevalent is this myth that increasingly Indus Valley Civilization is being hypenated with Saraswati with some even give it the "Saraswati" prefix. S-IVC or even Saraswati Valley Civilization reflecting the shifting of the gravity of the IVC from the west to east as shown in the map above. Example below of Saraswati myth.








The myth being peddled below in Wiki

Source > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar-Hakra_River

More rubbish being put forth as factual history.







It never made any sense because whilst climate has changed in that time but nothing as profound as this could have happened. Such a huge river could not possibly just vanish in the time frame in question. Other rivers in the region like Indus have been remarkably stable over this time frame. Furthermore even a causal check on the topography will show that this river could not have traversed the line given unless water ran contra gravity 4000 years ago.

The myth though has now been so to say "busted". A multi-disciplinary, multi-national team of experts from various universities and institutes independantly funded has reported that such a river as advocated by the Saraswati lobby could not have existed. Instead the team say in the past the Ghagger-Hakra was a perennial river fed by monsoon rains which were more abundant then today. However even at it's height it was just a minor tributary of the Indus which flowed into Indus River. It still does but because of the drier climate it is now mostly dry bed although occasionally turns into torrent with heavy rainfall.


*Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization*

Giosan, L; Clift, PD; Macklin, MG; Fuller, DQ; Constantinescu, S; Durcan, JA; Stevens, T; (2012) Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization published in:-







Source > Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Source > http://www.pnas.org/
Quote

"_The collapse of the Bronze Age Harappan, one of the earliest urban civilizations, remains an enigma. Urbanism flourished in the western region of the Indo-Gangetic Plain for approximately 600 y, but since approximately 3,900 y ago, the total settled area and settlement sizes declined, many sites were abandoned, and a significant shift in site numbers and density towards the east is recorded. We report morphologic and chronologic evidence indicating that fluvial landscapes in Harappan territory became remarkably stable during the late Holocene as aridification intensified in the region after approximately 5,000 BP. Upstream on the alluvial plain, the large Himalayan rivers in Punjab stopped incising, while downstream, sedimentation slowed on the distinctive mega-fluvial ridge, which the Indus built in Sindh. This fluvial quiescence suggests a gradual decrease in flood intensity that probably stimulated intensive agriculture initially and encouraged urbanization around 4,500 BP. However, further decline in monsoon precipitation led to conditions adverse to both inundation- and rain-based farming. _*Contrary*_ to earlier assumptions that a _*large glacier-fed *_Himalayan river, identified by some with the _*mythical Sarasvati*_, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that_ *only monsoonal-fed rivers*_ were active there during the Holocene. As the monsoon weakened, monsoonal rivers gradually dried or became seasonal, affecting habitability along their courses. Hydroclimatic stress increased the vulnerability of agricultural production supporting Harappan urbanism, leading to settlement downsizing, diversification of crops, and a drastic increase in settlements in the moister monsoon regions of the upper Punjab, Haryana, and Uttar Pradesh."
_

Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf



Quote

_"Once extending more than 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Himalayas and the Ganges, over what is now Pakistan, northwest India and eastern Afghanistan, the Indus civilization was the largest—but least known—of the first great urban cultures that also included Egypt and Mesopotamia. Named for one of their largest cities, the Harappans relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses. Today, numerous remains of the Harappan settlements are located in a vast desert region far from any flowing river. 
_
Credit: Liviu Giosan, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution; Stefan Constantinescu, University of Bucharest; James P.M. Syvitski, University of Colorado.
_
Quote

"A new study combining the latest archaeological evidence with state-of-the-art geoscience technologies provides evidence that climate change was a key ingredient in the collapse of the great Indus or Harappan Civilization almost 4000 years ago. The study also _*resolves *_a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the *Sarasvati*, the sacred river of Hindu mythology"
_

Link > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0528154943.htm



Context map. With Indus River system (mostly in Pakistan) blue flowing south into the Arabian Sea and entirely separate Ganges River System in India flowing east into the Bay of Bengal.








Ever since I heard this Saraswati rubbish I had my doubts. It never made sense. The only sense it made was negate Indus and replace it with Saraswati. Then give it a Hindu stamp by either calling it Saraswati Civilization or hyphenating as Saraswati-Indus Valley Civilization. Indian's are going to have to do more "Horseplay". The last map shows how the entire Indus is far out on the margins of most of India. Hell Afghanistan, Iran or even Oman are closer to then most parts of India. Mind you mention the word "Indus" and the Indian ears go erect faster then ears of my Alsatian dog when I say "food time" even when they live next to Sri Lanka or Myanmar or Thailand. Amazing !!!

Reactions: Like Like:
20


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Atanz said:


> No where in the world is history more distorted in the interest of politics then in South Asia. Mountains can be moved literally to fit in with revisionist history. One famous example of this is -
> 
> Source > HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA
> 
> 
> However there is another one. This is on continental scale. Have a look at the map below of Indus River and it's tributaries. Even a superficial glance will show that Indus flows along axis of Pakistan into the Arabian Sea. It was the centre of what has been called the Indus Valley Civilization with major centres like Harappa and Mohenjo Daro adjacent to or on the banks of the the mighty Indus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This geographic reality has placed the right wing groups in India in a bind. They claim the IVC as the fountain of Indian civilization however the axis of this, the Indus River is in their arch nemesis - Pakistan. This has been major source of their frustration.
> 
> This problem has been resolved by massive distortion of facts on the ground. The axis of the IVC has been shifted east toward India or inside India. Map below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has been done by imagining a intermittent stream - the Ghagger-Hakra as a raging river to match mighty Indus and then tracing a line east of the Indus as the route of this river. All this was supported by Hindu myth which spoke of a giant Saraswati River. Thus the Saraswati came alive.
> 
> Map below. The intermittent Ghaggar-Hakra (1) marked red. Then the imaginery course of the raging "Saraswati" in black (2) emptying into the Arabian sea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The final product of this enterprise is the coming to life of the Saraswati River straight from ancient Hindu text which conveniently shifts the axis toward India and loads of non significant IVC sites can be declared as "major" all nicely dotted along this new axis off the IVC far east from the Indus River itself. The centre of gravity has been shifted nicely east away from the arch nemesis. This is the historical version of the "if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, we will bring mountain to Mohammed". In this case "if the river is not in India we will bring the river to India".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So prevalent is this myth that increasingly Indus Valley Civilization is being hypenated with Saraswati with some even give it the "Saraswati" prefix. S-IVC or even Saraswati Valley Civilization reflecting the shifting of the gravity of the IVC from the west to east as shown in the map above. Example below of Saraswati myth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The myth being peddled below in Wiki
> 
> Source > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar-Hakra_River
> 
> More rubbish being put forth as factual history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never made any sense because whilst climate has changed in that time but nothing as profound as this could have happened. Such a huge river could not possibly just vanish in the time frame in question. Other rivers in the region like Indus have been remarkably stable over this time frame. Furthermore even a causal check on the topography will show that this river could not have traversed the line given unless water ran contra gravity 4000 years ago.
> 
> The myth though has now been so to say "busted". A multi-disciplinary, multi-national team of experts from various universities and institutes independantly funded has reported that such a river as advocated by the Saraswati lobby could not have existed. Instead the team say in the past the Ghagger-Hakra was a perennial river fed by monsoon rains which were more abundant then today. However even at it's height it was just a minor tributary of the Indus which flowed into Indus River. It still does but because of the drier climate it is now mostly dry bed although occasionally turns into torrent with heavy rainfall.
> 
> 
> *Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization*
> 
> Giosan, L; Clift, PD; Macklin, MG; Fuller, DQ; Constantinescu, S; Durcan, JA; Stevens, T; (2012) Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization
> 
> Source > Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
> 
> Quote
> 
> "_The collapse of the Bronze Age Harappan, one of the earliest urban civilizations, remains an enigma. Urbanism flourished in the western region of the Indo-Gangetic Plain for approximately 600 y, but since approximately 3,900 y ago, the total settled area and settlement sizes declined, many sites were abandoned, and a significant shift in site numbers and density towards the east is recorded. We report morphologic and chronologic evidence indicating that fluvial landscapes in Harappan territory became remarkably stable during the late Holocene as aridification intensified in the region after approximately 5,000 BP. Upstream on the alluvial plain, the large Himalayan rivers in Punjab stopped incising, while downstream, sedimentation slowed on the distinctive mega-fluvial ridge, which the Indus built in Sindh. This fluvial quiescence suggests a gradual decrease in flood intensity that probably stimulated intensive agriculture initially and encouraged urbanization around 4,500 BP. However, further decline in monsoon precipitation led to conditions adverse to both inundation- and rain-based farming. _Contrary_ to earlier assumptions that a large glacier-fed Himalayan river, identified by some with the _*mythical Sarasvati*_, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that_ *only monsoonal-fed rivers*_ were active there during the Holocene. As the monsoon weakened, monsoonal rivers gradually dried or became seasonal, affecting habitability along their courses. Hydroclimatic stress increased the vulnerability of agricultural production supporting Harappan urbanism, leading to settlement downsizing, diversification of crops, and a drastic increase in settlements in the moister monsoon regions of the upper Punjab, Haryana, and Uttar Pradesh."
> _
> 
> Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote
> 
> _"Once extending more than 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Himalayas and the Ganges, over what is now Pakistan, northwest India and eastern Afghanistan, the Indus civilization was the largest—but least known—of the first great urban cultures that also included Egypt and Mesopotamia. Named for one of their largest cities, the Harappans relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses. Today, numerous remains of the Harappan settlements are located in a vast desert region far from any flowing river.
> _
> Credit: Liviu Giosan, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution; Stefan Constantinescu, University of Bucharest; James P.M. Syvitski, University of Colorado.
> _
> Quote
> 
> "A new study combining the latest archaeological evidence with state-of-the-art geoscience technologies provides evidence that climate change was a key ingredient in the collapse of the great Indus or Harappan Civilization almost 4000 years ago. The study also _*resolves *_a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the *Sarasvati*, the sacred river of Hindu mythology"
> _
> 
> Link > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0528154943.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Context map. With Indus River system (mostly in Pakistan) blue flowing south into the Arabian Sea and entirely separate Ganges River System in India flowing east into the Bay of Bengal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever since I heard this Saraswati rubbish I had my doubts. It never made sense. The only sense it made was negate Indus and replace it with Saraswati. Then give it a Hindu stamp by either calling it Saraswati Civilization or hyphenating as Saraswati-Indus Valley Civilization. Indian's are going to have to do more "Horseplay". The last map shows how the entire Indus is far out on the margins of most of India. Hell Afghanistan, Iran or even Oman are closer to then most parts of India. Mind you mention the word "Indus" and the Indian ears go erect faster then ears of my Alsatian dog when I say "food time" even when they live next to Sri Lanka or Myanmar or Thailand. Amazing !!!




Sounds legit.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Levina

Thanks for redirecting me to one of your latest threads @Atanz.


so more maps and more theories?
Mr. ET you should stop misleading your people.

There's physical evidence of the river and I can show it to you.(watch the link below).





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1592437231009174






1) The man giving details in the video is a Pakistani archaeologist. So i guess you will find the video authentic.

2) When a river flows over a place for long, the water seeps down into the rocks below the river bed. And this fact has been proven by satellite images of Saraswati's riverbed (now dry). Ground water levels around Saraswati's dried path are unusually high for an arid region, marked by distict light blue in the map shown below, in contrast to the red (dry) region around it.








*why is it important to locate Saraswati river?
*
The places through which the mighty river used to flow is now dry. As shown in the map.
But if we can access the water thats trapped below the dry river bed then it will help thousands of farmers living in the arid parts of thar desert.
If the river bed is located then* it will help your people and mine.*













__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1592441691008728







@Atanz do you still believe Saraswati is a hindu propaganda?

Reactions: Like Like:
11


----------



## Indus Pakistan

[QUOTE="Levina, post: 8112210, member: 149497"@Atanz do you still believe Saraswati is a hindu propaganda?[/QUOTE]

Yes, absolute fraud. Did you even read the multi-national report by group of scientists from many backgrounds - Indian, Pakistani, British, American, Romanian Italian who completed there thorough investigation and made their findings were published. I will give link again. Read it. These are people expert in fluvial dynamics of rivers.

Link: Liviu Giosana et al > Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf

This report has been peer reviewed and published in;-






Link > http://www.pnas.org/

Reactions: Like Like:
12


----------



## Kabira

I wonder what will happen once Rakhigarhi skeletons genetic results come, either Pakistanis will be happy or Indians lol Either way history will be rewritten. Looks like we only have to wait few week now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Levina

Atanz said:


> Yes, absolute fraud. Did you even read the multi-national report by group of scientists from many backgrounds - Indian, Pakistani, British, American, Romanian Italian who completed there thorough investigation and made their findings were published. I will give link again. Read it. These are people expert in fluvial dynamics of rivers.
> 
> Link: Liviu Giosana et al > Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf


okay i will read it.
And reply back later.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

save_ghenda said:


> I wonder what will happen once Rakhigarhi skeletons genetic results come, either Pakistanis will be happy or Indians lol Either way history will be rewritten. Looks like we only have to wait few week now.



I have zero trust if the tests are only done inside India. That also applies to Pakistan. In both countries the political leverage is too much for impartial scientific research. Only if outside agency of repute is involved othewise it's waste of time.

More here. 

Quote.

"








Rosanne Skirble
May 30, 2012 2:25 PM

Climate change may have hastened the end of the largest civilization in the ancient world, according to a study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The Indus empire, larger than its contemporaries Egypt and Mesopotamia combined, once held 10 percent of the world’s population and spanned 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River, from the Arabian Sea to the Ganges, encompassing what is today Pakistan, eastern Afghanistan and northwest India.

Despite its great cities and trade routes, the Indus civilization disappeared some 3,000 years ago and was nearly forgotten until the 20th Century, when archaeologists began unearthing its lost treasures. 




Trenches reveal signs of how the landscape was shaped by rivers, wind and climate. (Peter D. Clift/University of Aberdeen)
Unlike the Egyptians or the Mesopotamians, the Indus didn’t build large temples or pyramids. Lead author Liviu Giosan, a geologist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, says the Indus people were more interested in agriculture and trade

“They farmed all the Indus Basin," Giosan says. "They had an extremely developed network of roads. They had sea links with Mesopotamia. They built big cities, orderly cities, in a grid. They had plumbing that was never encountered after that until the Romans came.” 

Archeological ruins of the Indus people, also known as the Harappans, were discovered in the 1920s. Studies since then have described an urban culture with sophisticated construction, sanitation systems, arts and crafts, and writing still not deciphered. 

In their work, Giosan and his colleagues used satellite images and topographical data to construct a model of the landscape where the Indus developed 5,200 years ago, built their cities, and then slowly declined between 3,900 and 3,000 years ago. 

“We went and dug trenches, or took sediment cores, or drilled to collect samples of sediment, so that we could understand where they formed," Giosan says. "Were they formed by the river? Were they formed by the wind, and when [were] they formed?”

Source > http://www.voanews.com/content/climate-change-may-have-hastened-indus-empires-collapse/1145303.html

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kabira

Atanz said:


> I have zero trust if the tests are only done inside India. That also applies to Pakistan. In both countries the political leverage is too much for impartial scientific research. Only if outside agency of repute is involved othewise it's waste of time.
> 
> More here.
> 
> Quote.
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rosanne Skirble
> May 30, 2012 2:25 PM
> 
> Climate change may have hastened the end of the largest civilization in the ancient world, according to a study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
> 
> The Indus empire, larger than its contemporaries Egypt and Mesopotamia combined, once held 10 percent of the world’s population and spanned 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River, from the Arabian Sea to the Ganges, encompassing what is today Pakistan, eastern Afghanistan and northwest India.
> 
> Despite its great cities and trade routes, the Indus civilization disappeared some 3,000 years ago and was nearly forgotten until the 20th Century, when archaeologists began unearthing its lost treasures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trenches reveal signs of how the landscape was shaped by rivers, wind and climate. (Peter D. Clift/University of Aberdeen)
> Unlike the Egyptians or the Mesopotamians, the Indus didn’t build large temples or pyramids. Lead author Liviu Giosan, a geologist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, says the Indus people were more interested in agriculture and trade
> 
> “They farmed all the Indus Basin," Giosan says. "They had an extremely developed network of roads. They had sea links with Mesopotamia. They built big cities, orderly cities, in a grid. They had plumbing that was never encountered after that until the Romans came.”
> 
> Archeological ruins of the Indus people, also known as the Harappans, were discovered in the 1920s. Studies since then have described an urban culture with sophisticated construction, sanitation systems, arts and crafts, and writing still not deciphered.
> 
> In their work, Giosan and his colleagues used satellite images and topographical data to construct a model of the landscape where the Indus developed 5,200 years ago, built their cities, and then slowly declined between 3,900 and 3,000 years ago.
> 
> “We went and dug trenches, or took sediment cores, or drilled to collect samples of sediment, so that we could understand where they formed," Giosan says. "Were they formed by the river? Were they formed by the wind, and when [were] they formed?”
> 
> Source > http://www.voanews.com/content/climate-change-may-have-hastened-indus-empires-collapse/1145303.html



They are done with collaboration of south korea. Pakistan and India don't have technology to extract ancient DNA. I hope soon Pakistan follow suite and think about extracting DNA from so many skeletons found in all over IVC sites.

This scientific study about supposed saraswati river was done many years ago. No Indian nationalist belived it back then and they will not now.


----------



## Srinivas

This river is mentioned in Mahabharata, this epic dates back to 1000 B.C


Saraswati River evidence also strengthens "out of India" theory.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

save_ghenda said:


> They are done with collaboration of south korea. Pakistan and India don't have technology to extract ancient DNA. I hope soon Pakistan follow suite and think about extracting DNA from so many skeletons found in all over IVC sites.
> 
> This scientific study about supposed saraswati river was done many years ago. No Indian nationalist belived it back then and they will not now.



Well let's see what happens. Well the Hindutwa fanatics will not believe even if they went back in time machine and saw it with their owns eyes. These retards think all the land under our feet is their property. Delusional is what they are. Sat in Chennai, Kolkata or Pune anmd dreaming about Indus while worshipping Holy Ganges.

It's like Pakistani's start dreaming about Nile, Egypt and Tigris in Mesoptamian Iraq while sat in Pakistan. Below the map puts things in perspective. Look at the Indus Valley and how marginal it is to India. Most Indian's live hundreds if not thousand miles away from it yet they all dreram about Indus. Ganges is their lifeline.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Srinivas

Saraswati River is monsoon fed river, in Mahabharata it was mentioned that a mighty river existed which flowed through Rajasthan and Gujarat.

They cannot give the evidence where this River is and they blindly deny the evidence infront of them.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Guys before I go the source is from a top of line US institute - Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution with mixed team of scientists from USA, Italy, UK, India, Pakistan and Romania. The full team is listed. Then the findings were published on reputable scientific journals. This is not some third rate garbage but proper scientific report.










Full PDF format report here >http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
Published on PNAS > http://www.pnas.org/

Link > http://www.voanews.com/content/climate-change-may-have-hastened-indus-empires-collapse/1145303.html
Link > http://popular-archaeology.com/issu...ent-indus-civilization-demise-researchers-say

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Levina

Atanz said:


> Yes, absolute fraud. Did you even read the multi-national report by group of scientists from many backgrounds - Indian, Pakistani, British, American, Romanian Italian who completed there thorough investigation and made their findings were published. I will give link again. Read it. These are people expert in fluvial dynamics of rivers.
> 
> Link: Liviu Giosana et al > Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
> 
> This report has been peer reviewed and published in;-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link > http://www.pnas.org/


Brace up ET...


1) The article that you have posted is old.





2) I have already posted pictures from remote sensing satellites.* Remote sensing images of the ISRO* and the Geological Survey of India (gsi) have already found the existence of palaeo-channels of a mighty river, call it any whatever name you choose- Saraswati or ghagar- hakra.
ISRO is one of the most reliable sources I can quote. Remember Chandrayaan and Mangalyaan??Just few of ISRO's achievements.

3) A geophysical survey undertaken by the RGWD in the Tanot and Longewala areas indicated the existence of *coarse sediments* in the depth range of 30 to 60 metres pointing to the possibility of the existence of a river in the region.
Nearly 2000 of the 2600 Harappan sites that have been discovered, are situated on the old palaeo-channels of Saraswati.






4) I have already told you how river water seeps through the rocks while it flows over a region and then remains trapped there for long.
One of the video that i posted earlier was from Pakistan, where tube wells were dug after farmers stumbled upon some of Saraswati's palaeo-channels.
On this side of the border RGWD scientists were amazed by the fact that fresh water was available in many places of Jaisalmer district(Rajasthan) and some wells never dried up. Let me tell you *Jaisalmer's water is known to be saline.* *Investigations revealed that about 100 metres away from the site of the fresh water the groundwater was saline.*
Interesting isnt it???
How do you think its possible???
Further, some of CGWB's observation stations for monitoring groundwater have found fresh water in the depth range of 30-40 metres. These stations are located in a *linear pattern* in the northeast-southeast direction, and *never go dry*. Any explanation???
During the survey alluvial sediments were found at a depth of 78-100 metres, pointing to the existence of a flow channel. It also points towards the existence of a fresh water source along the palaeo-channel.

5) The ground water so discovered was then tested by Bhabha atomic research center (BARC), Mumbai. And they found the water dated back 4000-8000years.






*source:*





and the authors are NOT indians.

6) Who will benefit from the project to trace Saraswati's channels?
a) Poor farmers of the thar desert (which covers the western borders of India shared with Pakistan).
b)Soldiers- Indian defence ministry has shown its ineterst in the project as it could mean adequate water supply to its soldiers stationed on the India-Pakistan border.



so if you still believe that Saraswati was a mythical river then you're gonna miss the bus again. Just heads-up.



..

Reactions: Like Like:
7


----------



## EAK

Archie said:


> Forget about history for a second
> 
> If we want, we can change the course of Indus, simply by use of Dams
> Without Indian consent, no Drop of water goes into Pakistan



LOL.. Level hy bhai brain washing ka india main... @Zibago

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Pandora

Atanz said:


> Guys before I go the source is from a top of line US institute - Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution with mixed team of scientists from USA, Italy, UK, India, Pakistan and Romania. The full team is listed. Then the findings were published on reputable scientific journals. This is not some third rate garbage but proper scientific report.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full PDF format report here >http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
> Published on PNAS > http://www.pnas.org/
> 
> Link > http://www.voanews.com/content/climate-change-may-have-hastened-indus-empires-collapse/1145303.html
> Link > http://popular-archaeology.com/issu...ent-indus-civilization-demise-researchers-say




LoL why are you ramming your head with bafoons who believe old myths over physical evidence. Even if you put all the evidence in the world Indians wont believe it. Pakistan was the center of a great civilization which irks them



Archie said:


> Forget about history for a second
> 
> If we want, we can change the course of Indus, simply by use of Dams
> Without Indian consent, no Drop of water goes into Pakistan




It is ok to forget history but to be dillusional to point where you cant even see reality is utterly moronic.
Sure mate go ahead. And without pakistani consent you wont get a drop of it as well. Water is the basic necessity of life which if you stop will lead to a full scale war. This is a fact known by india otherwise you people would have done so already.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Archie

OK
Then I am sure Pakistani politicians and media won't cry this summer like they have been doing for the past 6 years
Coz India will only release the water which our reservoirs can't store
And the number of Dams in Indian Kashmir are increasing every year

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Zibago

EAK said:


> LOL.. Level hy bhai brain washing ka india main... @Zibago


They believe Indus flows completely from India

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Maira La

Zibago said:


> They believe Indus flows completely from India



Can't entirely blame them. Growing up knowing their country is named India and being taught everything associated with the English prefix 'ind' belongs to them, it's only natural that the average Indian will yield to the confusion. The Indian education system needs a reform to fight revisionist history.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Apprentice

I suppose India should change its name now that most of the Indus is foreign water.


----------



## Tergon18

India has the most curious idendity crisis. It is named after a river that has been historically seperate than its current terrotiries, only united for 80 years under Ashoka later 350 under Mughals and Sultanates and 100 under British. It is like the Germans naming Germany after River Thames in England! Thamesia or something.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## tsinga

Tergon18 said:


> India has the most curious idendity crisis. It is named after a river that has been historically seperate than its current terrotiries, only united for 80 years under Ashoka later 350 under Mughals and Sultanates and 100 under British. It is like the Germans naming Germany after River Thames in England! Thamesia or something.


Its not India that writes inches thick columns upon columns discussing India's identity crisis..Indians know their identity and it is visible in our discussions, our media or our cultural landscape..

its India's neighbour to the west who constantly has this debate on its identity on a weekly basis in its own society.

You know you can write all you want about India's supposed identity crisis but it won't make any difference to Indians, it would just be a feel good discussion for Pakistanis. Your call entirely.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Tergon18

tsinga said:


> Its not India that writes inches thick columns upon columns discussing India's identity crisis..Indians know their identity and it is visible in our discussions, our media or our cultural landscape..
> 
> its India's neighbour to the west who constantly has this debate on its identity on a weekly basis in its own society.
> 
> You know you can write all you want about India's supposed identity crisis but it won't make any difference to Indians, it would just be a feel good discussion for Pakistanis. Your call entirely.



Yes we can see who has not only an identity crisis, but also a deep seated inferiority complex.

Bollywood is primarily run by Punjabis from our side (Indus Region). Behind the camera, there are Karan Johar, Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Yash Chopra of Lahore. The Kapoor clan of Lyallpur, Dev Anand of Lahore, Rajendra Kumar of Sialkot, Jeetendra, Prem Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt of Jhelum, Rajesh Khanna, Vinod Khanna, Suresh Oberoi of Quetta, and their star kids are Punjabis. Composer Roshan (father of Rakesh and grandfather of Hrithik) was from Gujranwala. All this despite Punjabis forming only 2% of India while forming a majority in Pakistan.

Also Muslim Urdu Speaking Pashtuns, or Hindkowan as in the case of Shah Rukh Khan, originally from the Indus Region (Pak Area) dominate Bollywood and Bollywood uses primarily Urdu (Persian originated words) than Hindi. 

Named after a region/river that has been historically seperate from it's current territories, using 'foreign' actors for its main industry, we can see who has the inferiority complex/identity crisis.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## tsinga

Tergon18 said:


> Yes we can see who has not only an identity crisis, but also a deep seated inferiority complex.
> 
> Bollywood is primarily run by Punjabis from our side (Indus Region). Behind the camera, there are Karan Johar, Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Yash Chopra of Lahore. The Kapoor clan of Lyallpur, Dev Anand of Lahore, Rajendra Kumar of Sialkot, Jeetendra, Prem Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt of Jhelum, Rajesh Khanna, Vinod Khanna, Suresh Oberoi of Quetta, and their star kids are Punjabis. Composer Roshan (father of Rakesh and grandfather of Hrithik) was from Gujranwala. All this despite Punjabis forming only 2% of India while forming a majority in Pakistan.
> 
> Also Muslim Urdu Speaking Pashtuns, or Hindkowan as in the case of Shah Rukh Khan, originally from the Indus Region (Pak Area) dominate Bollywood and Bollywood uses primarily Urdu (Persian originated words) than Hindi.
> 
> Named after a region/river that has been historically seperate from it's current territories, using 'foreign' actors for its main industry, we can see who has the inferiority complex/identity crisis.


I tried making you understand that such lines mean nothing to us. You can personally see just by reading our papers and magazines what our society thinks of itself and whether or not it has an identity crisis. Just like how we see what your society thinks by reading a variety of Pakistani papers and magazines. Its no longer a secret with the advent of internet. 

However, I can see you are intent on proving something for your sake. 

Very well. Please continue. We have an inferiority complex and an identity crisis

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ebrahym

Kaptaan said:


> No where in the world is history more distorted in the interest of politics then in South Asia. Mountains can be moved literally to fit in with revisionist history. One famous example of this is -
> 
> Source > HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA
> 
> 
> However there is another one. This is on continental scale. Have a look at the map below of Indus River and it's tributaries. Even a superficial glance will show that Indus flows along axis of Pakistan into the Arabian Sea. It was the centre of what has been called the Indus Valley Civilization with major centres like Harappa and Mohenjo Daro adjacent to or on the banks of the the mighty Indus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This geographic reality has placed the right wing groups in India in a bind. They claim the IVC as the fountain of Indian civilization however the axis of this, the Indus River is in their arch nemesis - Pakistan. This has been major source of their frustration.
> 
> This problem has been resolved by massive distortion of facts on the ground. The axis of the IVC has been shifted east toward India or inside India. Map below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has been done by imagining a intermittent stream - the Ghagger-Hakra as a raging river to match mighty Indus and then tracing a line east of the Indus as the route of this river. All this was supported by Hindu myth which spoke of a giant Saraswati River. Thus the Saraswati came alive.
> 
> Map below. The intermittent Ghaggar-Hakra (1) marked red. Then the imaginery course of the raging "Saraswati" in black (2) emptying into the Arabian sea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The final product of this enterprise is the coming to life of the Saraswati River straight from ancient Hindu text which conveniently shifts the axis toward India and loads of non significant IVC sites can be declared as "major" all nicely dotted along this new axis off the IVC far east from the Indus River itself. The centre of gravity has been shifted nicely east away from the arch nemesis. This is the historical version of the "if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, we will bring mountain to Mohammed". In this case "if the river is not in India we will bring the river to India".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So prevalent is this myth that increasingly Indus Valley Civilization is being hypenated with Saraswati with some even give it the "Saraswati" prefix. S-IVC or even Saraswati Valley Civilization reflecting the shifting of the gravity of the IVC from the west to east as shown in the map above. Example below of Saraswati myth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The myth being peddled below in Wiki
> 
> Source > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar-Hakra_River
> 
> More rubbish being put forth as factual history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never made any sense because whilst climate has changed in that time but nothing as profound as this could have happened. Such a huge river could not possibly just vanish in the time frame in question. Other rivers in the region like Indus have been remarkably stable over this time frame. Furthermore even a causal check on the topography will show that this river could not have traversed the line given unless water ran contra gravity 4000 years ago.
> 
> The myth though has now been so to say "busted". A multi-disciplinary, multi-national team of experts from various universities and institutes independantly funded has reported that such a river as advocated by the Saraswati lobby could not have existed. Instead the team say in the past the Ghagger-Hakra was a perennial river fed by monsoon rains which were more abundant then today. However even at it's height it was just a minor tributary of the Indus which flowed into Indus River. It still does but because of the drier climate it is now mostly dry bed although occasionally turns into torrent with heavy rainfall.
> 
> 
> *Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization*
> 
> Giosan, L; Clift, PD; Macklin, MG; Fuller, DQ; Constantinescu, S; Durcan, JA; Stevens, T; (2012) Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization published in:-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source > Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
> Source > http://www.pnas.org/
> Quote
> 
> "_The collapse of the Bronze Age Harappan, one of the earliest urban civilizations, remains an enigma. Urbanism flourished in the western region of the Indo-Gangetic Plain for approximately 600 y, but since approximately 3,900 y ago, the total settled area and settlement sizes declined, many sites were abandoned, and a significant shift in site numbers and density towards the east is recorded. We report morphologic and chronologic evidence indicating that fluvial landscapes in Harappan territory became remarkably stable during the late Holocene as aridification intensified in the region after approximately 5,000 BP. Upstream on the alluvial plain, the large Himalayan rivers in Punjab stopped incising, while downstream, sedimentation slowed on the distinctive mega-fluvial ridge, which the Indus built in Sindh. This fluvial quiescence suggests a gradual decrease in flood intensity that probably stimulated intensive agriculture initially and encouraged urbanization around 4,500 BP. However, further decline in monsoon precipitation led to conditions adverse to both inundation- and rain-based farming. _*Contrary*_ to earlier assumptions that a _*large glacier-fed *_Himalayan river, identified by some with the _*mythical Sarasvati*_, watered the Harappan heartland on the interfluve between the Indus and Ganges basins, we show that_ *only monsoonal-fed rivers*_ were active there during the Holocene. As the monsoon weakened, monsoonal rivers gradually dried or became seasonal, affecting habitability along their courses. Hydroclimatic stress increased the vulnerability of agricultural production supporting Harappan urbanism, leading to settlement downsizing, diversification of crops, and a drastic increase in settlements in the moister monsoon regions of the upper Punjab, Haryana, and Uttar Pradesh."
> _
> 
> Full article here > http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Quote
> 
> _"Once extending more than 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Himalayas and the Ganges, over what is now Pakistan, northwest India and eastern Afghanistan, the Indus civilization was the largest—but least known—of the first great urban cultures that also included Egypt and Mesopotamia. Named for one of their largest cities, the Harappans relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses. Today, numerous remains of the Harappan settlements are located in a vast desert region far from any flowing river.
> _
> Credit: Liviu Giosan, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution; Stefan Constantinescu, University of Bucharest; James P.M. Syvitski, University of Colorado.
> _
> Quote
> 
> "A new study combining the latest archaeological evidence with state-of-the-art geoscience technologies provides evidence that climate change was a key ingredient in the collapse of the great Indus or Harappan Civilization almost 4000 years ago. The study also _*resolves *_a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the *Sarasvati*, the sacred river of Hindu mythology"
> _
> 
> Link > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0528154943.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Context map. With Indus River system (mostly in Pakistan) blue flowing south into the Arabian Sea and entirely separate Ganges River System in India flowing east into the Bay of Bengal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ever since I heard this Saraswati rubbish I had my doubts. It never made sense. The only sense it made was negate Indus and replace it with Saraswati. Then give it a Hindu stamp by either calling it Saraswati Civilization or hyphenating as Saraswati-Indus Valley Civilization. Indian's are going to have to do more "Horseplay". The last map shows how the entire Indus is far out on the margins of most of India. Hell Afghanistan, Iran or even Oman are closer to then most parts of India. Mind you mention the word "Indus" and the Indian ears go erect faster then ears of my Alsatian dog when I say "food time" even when they live next to Sri Lanka or Myanmar or Thailand. Amazing !!!


with all due respect
i will have to disagree with you
first if no such river existed then there should be no Rann of kutch second of all the old river used to flow through thar desert if you know the desert you will realize it is a classic case of natural desertification possibly due to diversion of river most probably due to route change if you look at the sources of all main rivers of subcontinent you will realize the source of the old river whatever you call it has been moved towards ganges system 
now it is all observation and i dont have any source to prove it if it is wrong i take full responsibility of it



Levina said:


> 6) Who will benefit from the project to trace Saraswati's channels?
> a) Poor farmers of the thar desert (which covers the western borders of India shared with Pakistan).
> b)Soldiers- Indian defence ministry has shown its ineterst in the project as it could mean adequate water supply to its soldiers stationed on the India-Pakistan border.


exactly no need to make any excuse 
you want , i would say need a river there 
you make a river there 
you do what you need to do

but yes i would agree with OP
south Asian history is the most lied about and made up history in literally the whole world
why?
because both of us dont want to associate with each other in anyway

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

xyxmt said:


> Indus civilization had plumbing


Forensic proof that IVC was not Indian.


----------



## Levina

ebrahym said:


> exactly no need to make any excuse
> you want , i would say need a river there
> you make a river there
> you do what you need to


So I guess we agree upon 2 things
1. There existed a river.
2. That the riverbed needs to be mapped.

Did I read it right?


> but yes i would agree with OP
> south Asian history is the most lied about and made up history in literally the whole world
> why?
> because both of us dont want to associate with each other in anyway


There's another reason why Asian history is often lied about- to maintain European supremacy.
Aryan invasion theory is one such example.



Kaptaan said:


> Forensic proof that IVC was not Indian.


Sire we are the only nation in the world which has a ocean dedicated to its name. Lol


----------



## ebrahym

Levina said:


> There's another reason why Asian history is often lied about- to maintain European supremacy.
> Aryan invasion theory is one such example.


i think it has been more twisted by our very own experts and trust me i read about Aryan invasion theory in fifth grade and my obsession with history led me to question it and I still remember being a kukad in front of whole class on asking "too much" questions like who were the Aryans in the fisrt place?
what made them leave their land?why is there no affiliation to Aryans currently?

i think what i agree on is that there used to be a river which has not been vanished but has moved to ganges system
you see rivers have a source (not only one)and once a course is established it take years to reroute and a 360 turn is also what questions my troubled mind 
rivers dont just vanish 
it might have something to do with harrapan destruction as well 
but you see i am not in the research phase yet and all these speculations are mere observations and studies of others works

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Jamwal's

Tergon18 said:


> Yes we can see who has not only an identity crisis, but also a deep seated inferiority complex.
> 
> Bollywood is primarily run by Punjabis from our side (Indus Region). Behind the camera, there are Karan Johar, Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Yash Chopra of Lahore. The Kapoor clan of Lyallpur, Dev Anand of Lahore, Rajendra Kumar of Sialkot, Jeetendra, Prem Chopra, Anil Kapoor, Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt of Jhelum, Rajesh Khanna, Vinod Khanna, Suresh Oberoi of Quetta, and their star kids are Punjabis. Composer Roshan (father of Rakesh and grandfather of Hrithik) was from Gujranwala. All this despite Punjabis forming only 2% of India while forming a majority in Pakistan.
> 
> Also Muslim Urdu Speaking Pashtuns, or Hindkowan as in the case of Shah Rukh Khan, originally from the Indus Region (Pak Area) dominate Bollywood and Bollywood uses primarily Urdu (Persian originated words) than Hindi.
> 
> Named after a region/river that has been historically seperate from it's current territories, using 'foreign' actors for its main industry, we can see who has the inferiority complex/identity crisis.


Acting, dancing which was itself frowned upon in that era (most of the high caste ) that's why most of the female dancers were from Lahore.


And they were Hindu kahartis who trace their origin from Lav Kusha from modem day India, how are they related to you folks. Are you khatri ?

Sunil Datt a Brahman. Are you Brahman ?


----------



## Levina

ebrahym said:


> i think what i agree on is that there used to be a river which has not been vanished but has moved to ganges system
> you see rivers have a source (not only one)and once a course is established it take years to reroute and a 360 turn is also what questions my troubled mind
> rivers dont just vanish
> it might have something to do with harrapan destruction as well
> but you see i am not in the research phase yet and all these speculations are mere observations and studies of others works



Interesting!
What I know about Saraswati is, some 5000 years ago Saraswati lost 2 of its perennial tributaries and third one called "drishadvati" dried up. Add to it the fact that sand movement and ground faults caused the water to seep underground.
That's how Saraswati did her disappearing act. JMHO!


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Levina said:


> nation dedicated to its name


Pakistan is in real trouble now. Claims expected from following.

1. Indies (West) ~ Caribean
2. India (ana) ~ American state.
3. Indo (nesia) ~ Country
4. India (napolis) ~ City USA

_*Wonder what the Italians think of *Roman*ia claming* Roman *Empire on basis of name grab?_

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ebrahym

Levina said:


> Saraswati lost 2 of its perennial tributaries and third one called "drishadvati" dried up.


what happened to tributaries ?
they just vanished ? or they turned?
see that is what i am saying rivers dont just vanish when their sources are still there
the amount of glaciers we still have in himalayas is enough to feed current rivers for a centuray no matter what these global warming experts say
so the question is what happened to it you see thar desert is able to produce all kinds of crops if irrigated which means it was never a barren land and still in some places have ridiculous greenery for a desert (not reffering to Oasis) which means it is desrtified 
the real question is what happened to saraswati and its tributaries?
they just vanished ?
well mythological view i have heard is some hindus saying it was returned to swarg



Kaptaan said:


> Pakistan is in real trouble now. Claims expected from following.
> 
> 1. Indies (West) ~ Caribean
> 2. India (ana) ~ American state.
> 3. Indo (nesia) ~ Country
> 4. India (napolis) ~ City USA
> 
> _*Wonder what the Italians think of *Roman*ia claming* Roman *Empire on basis of name grab?_


all those names including India itself is taken from Indus river

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Trichy

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Should I come with Islamic myth busted?? You will feel offended then.



ROFL... no one speak about it, if you do you are blocked permanently, due to insecurity of that faith.


----------



## Levina

Kaptaan said:


> Pakistan is in real trouble now. Claims expected from following.
> 
> 1. Indies (West) ~ Caribean
> 2. India (ana) ~ American state.
> 3. Indo (nesia) ~ Country
> 4. India (napolis) ~ City USA
> 
> _*Wonder what the Italians think of *Roman*ia claming* Roman *Empire on basis of name grab?_


Jealous?
Lol



ebrahym said:


> what happened to tributaries ?
> they just vanished ? or they turned?
> see that is what i am saying rivers dont just vanish when their sources are still there
> the amount of glaciers we still have in himalayas is enough to feed current rivers for a centuray no matter what these global warming experts say
> so the question is what happened to it you see thar desert is able to produce all kinds of crops if irrigated which means it was never a barren land and still in some places have ridiculous greenery for a desert (not reffering to Oasis) which means it is desrtified
> the real question is what happened to saraswati and its tributaries?
> they just vanished ?
> well mythological view i have heard is some hindus saying it was returned to swarg
> 
> 
> all those names including India itself is taken from Indus river



Not really.
I think I should have explained it clearly.
When I said lost 2 tributaries, I meant they changed their course due to change in level of ground. One of the tributary, river Yamuna, changed its direction eastwards, while the other tributary,river satlej, moved westwards. This happened due to rise of Aravallis.


----------



## SarthakGanguly

Read the text.

Astounded by the intelligence of the OP.

But yeah. 'Hindu' history is debunked indeed.
Thanks OP. 


The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Should I come with Islamic myth busted?? You will feel offended then.


Don't waste your time. This is a defence.pk. An Islamist fan forum with blasphemy laws.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## Levina

@Kaptaan 
Sorry.
I meant India has an ocean dedicated to its name. 
Ocean was changed to nation in the previous post, blame it on my autocorrect.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Levina said:


> dedicated to its name.


Okay. I am tempted to change my user name to "India". Can I then claim I have a country of 1.2 billion dedicated to my name?



SarthakGanguly said:


> Jobless/retired.


You will be there one day as well. We are all on a one way conveyor belt.



SarthakGanguly said:


> Same old wine in new bottle


Better to be old wine in new bottle then cheap fizzy drink in brash new can.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Levina

SarthakGanguly said:


> Jobless/retired. Same old wine in new bottle.


You got it wrong.
Advocate,working.
But his background (as a lawyer) gives him an edge over others here. 



Kaptaan said:


> Okay. I am tempted to change my user name to "India". Can I then claim I have a country of 1.2 billion dedicated to my name?


Pleasssse do.
I would luv to see the name "India" in dark blue in PDF. Lol
One of the HOLLYWOOD celebrity named her kid INDIA. Beat that!

You can not claim the country but the country can claim you. Lolz


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Levina said:


> You can not claim the country


I am so big, big that I can claim a country. But I will spare you that.


----------



## ebrahym

Levina said:


> rise of Aravallis.


o yes how did i miss this
but then moving of its tributary to ganges system was correct
i am going on right course
sutlej does not count as the whole saraswati system was actually part of indus river system



SarthakGanguly said:


> Keep your friends close. Enemies closer.


you can keep an eye by just observing the forum
no need to join it and then use it but badmouth about it as well
isnt it what you say
Chalkapat?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ebrahym

Levina said:


> Satlej turned westwards and joined INDUS.


sutlej never left Indus system
yamuna left and joind ganges system
of course its name is ganga by ganges i mean the whole river system
rivers are always in a form of system
Amazon, nile, Euphrates even okawango the river to nowhere is a system of rivers

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## SarthakGanguly

Kaptaan said:


> Better to "having been" then bum like you - who abuses everybodies visual vortex with his ugliness personfied. Has anybody not told you to get that ugly picture of yourself removed please. On aesthetic grounds alone.


Did not explicitly refer to you. Will be signing off for now. Don't read further than this... it's not for you.

Just a few points to kill this thread.

The main paper was published in 2012. The Saraswati river research has been on since 1979 and the main breakthroughs came in 2013 to 2014. There were threads made here *then *as well.

Google Scholar makes it easy for anyone now. *I will suggest Indians to use it. If you need a paper that requires a subscription, please let me know. I will download them for you. I have access.*

Here are some papers - for those who are interested. All published AFTER this one. If dates are God given proof of sanity and correctness, these should suffice. Otherwise lawyers can decipher history for the ignorant Hindus and teach them what they were.

*The River Saraswati was a Himalayan-born river*
*http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/104/01/0042.pdf*

*U-Pb zircon dating evidence for a Pleistocene Sarasvati River and capture of the Yamuna River*
*http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/40/3/211.short*

*Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879637/*

*A Connected Account of Ancient Indian History Using a System Approach http://asianagrihistory.org/vol-19/kd-singh.pdf*

*Geomorphological Constraints on the Ghaggar River Regime During the Mature Harappan Period http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012GM001218/summary*

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Indiran Chandiran

There's a very interesting book on the topic that I've just started reading .It's titled - The Lost River - On The Trail Of The Sarasvati by Michael Danino.

This should be of interest to all those who propose or oppose that Saravati was indeed a river and part of the IVC which dried up around 2000 BCE.


----------



## Mamluk

Indiran Chandiran said:


> *There's a very interesting book on the topic *that I've just started reading .It's titled - The Lost River - On The Trail Of The Sarasvati by Michael Danino.
> 
> This should be of interest to all those who propose or oppose that Saravati was indeed a river and part of the IVC which dried up around 2000 BCE.



Interesting doesn't mean it's true.

All the racist books from Hitler's bookshelves are very interesting to read.

Does that mean it's true that Germans are master race? You know they've written hundreds of thousands upon thousands of line to prove it.


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Jamwal's said:


> Acting, dancing which was itself frowned upon in that era (most of the high caste ) that's why most of the female dancers were from Lahore.
> 
> 
> And they were Hindu kahartis who trace their origin from Lav Kusha from modem day India, how are they related to you folks. Are you khatri ?
> 
> Sunil Datt a Brahman. Are you Brahman ?



The dancing girls from Lahore were actually a Hindu caste that migrated from Rajasthan called the kanjars.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indiran Chandiran

[USER=25628]@xxx[/USER][{::::::::::::::::::> said:


> Interesting doesn't mean it's true.
> 
> All the racist books from Hitler's bookshelves are very interesting to read.
> 
> Does that mean it's true that Germans are master race? You know they've written hundreds of thousands upon thousands of line to prove it.




Have you read the book I've recommended ? If not , how can you comment on its veracity ? 

Don't just comment for the sake of commenting .If you're here to know the truth , you ought to be open & impartial to all sides of the argument .However, if you're here to fit in pieces of evidences to match your theory , please go on.You're doing a fine job.


----------



## Mamluk

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Have you read the book I've recommended ? If not , how can you comment on its veracity ?
> 
> Don't just comment for the sake of commenting .If you're here to know the truth , you ought to be open & impartial to all sides of the argument .However, if you're here to fit in pieces of evidences to match your theory , please go on.You're doing a fine job.



Ok I will check the book - hope it's not just another "you see what you want to see" piece with nationalistic agenda.


----------



## Jamwal's

lastofthepatriots said:


> The dancing girls from Lahore were actually a Hindu caste that migrated from Rajasthan called the kanjars.


Never heard of them from Mughals to Sikh Rule but Heera Mandi was very famous back then apart from this nautch Girl and concubine of Sikh and ruling elites who were moslty Hindus.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moran_Sarkar

and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirasi

There are several Muslims 'actress' from undevided Punjab as well.


----------



## Indiran Chandiran

[USER=25628]@xxx[/USER][{::::::::::::::::::> said:


> Ok I will check the book - hope it's not just another "you see what you want to see" piece with nationalistic agenda.




I've just begun reading .It comes highly recommended .You can read the reviews .The author is an amateur historian with wide experience in Indology .However , he isn't a blind lover of all things Indian.From the little I've read he carefully sifts the grain away from the chaff.Incidentally , the novel reads more like a thriller .Slow burn.You can get it on Amazon .

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## lastofthepatriots

Jamwal's said:


> Never heard of them from Mughals to Sikh Rule but Heera Mandi was very famous back then apart from this nautch Girl and concubine of Sikh and ruling elites who were moslty Hindus.
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moran_Sarkar
> 
> and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirasi
> 
> There are several Muslims 'actress' from undevided Punjab as well.


Most of the heera mandi girls were from the kanjar caste.

@save_ghenda


----------



## Jamwal's

Geographic extent of India by Indo Greeks especially Megasthenes who lived in Patliputra - Present day India



OR AN EPITOME OF MEGASTHENES.
(Diod. II. 35-42.)


(35.)" India, which is in shape quadrilateral, has its eastern as well as its western side bounded by the great sea, but on the northern side it is divided by Mount Hemodos from that part of Skythia which is inhabited by those Skythians who are called the Sakai, while the fourth or western side is bounded by the river called the Indus, which is perhaps the largest of all rivers in the world after the Nile. The extent of the whole country from east to west is said to be 28,000 stadia, and from north to south 32,000. Being thus of such vast extent, it seems well-nigh to embrace the whole of the northern tropic zone of the earth, and in fact at the extreme point of India the gnomon of the sundial may frequently be observed to cast no shadow, while the constellation of the Bear is by night invisible, and in the remotest parts even Arcturus disappears from view. Consistently with this, it is also stated that shadows there fall to the southward.
India has many huge mountains which abound in fruit-trees of every kind, and many vast plains of great fertility--more or less beautiful, but all alike intersected by a multitude of rivers.
The greater part of the soil, moreover, is under irrigation, and consequently bears two crops in the course of the year. It teems at the same time with animals of all sorts,--beasts of the field and fowls of the air,--of all different degrees of strength and size. It is prolific, besides, in elephants, which are of monstrous bulk, as its soil supplies food in unsparing profusion, making these animals far to exceed in strength those that are bred in Libya. It results also that, since they are caught in great numbers by the Indians and trained for war, they are of great moment in turning the scale of victory.
(36.) The inhabitants, in like manner, having abundant means of subsistence, exceed in consequence the ordinary stature, and are distinguished by their proud bearing. They are also found to be well skilled in the arts, as might be expected of men who inhale a pure air and drink the very finest water. And while the soil bears on its surface all kinds "


----------



## ekhindustani

found a very interesting video


----------



## Post Colonnial

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_and_their_relation_to_the_'Vedic'_Saraswati

Complicated topic where it is important to not just read the scholarly papers but also sub-texts and revisions issued, in some cases, by the same authors, later as evidence progressed.

For example the original article posted (Horseplay in Harappa) relies heavily on the works of Weitzel et al who in turn rely upon works of others - such as Parpola.

Parpola however has heavily criticized Weitzel methodology - "Asko Parpola, reviewing the Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel thesis in 2005, states that their arguments "can be easily controverted".[95] He cites the presence of a large number of rare signs in Chinese, and emphasizes that there is "little reason for sign repetition in short seal texts written in an early logo-syllabic script". Revisiting the question in a 2007 lecture,[96] Parpola takes on each of the 10 main arguments of Farmer et al., presenting counterarguments. He states that "even short noun phrases and incomplete sentences qualify as full writing if the script uses the rebus principle to phonetize some of its signs". All these points are rejected in a lengthy paper by Richard Sproat, "Corpora and Statistical Analysis of Non-Linguistic Symbol Systems" (2012).[11]"

Unless we spend a LOT of time, which atleast I do not have for this purpose, it is reasonable I think to keep our minds open. It is as crude to dismiss Vedic literature as 'mythology' as it is to argue that every sub-text and interpretation of the Vedas has to be correct.

It is as disingenuous to claim that the Weitzel conclusions (which btw even within his own paper contains huge leaps of faith) are better founded than a hundred others who have done similar work as it is to claim Rushdie's representation of Gabriel is the realistic one!


----------



## Post Colonnial

Kaptaan said:


> Forensic proof that IVC was not Indian.



 probably one of the best zingers I have come across in recent times!


----------

