# India and Israel planned to bomb Pakistani nuclear facilities



## INDIAPOSITIVE

*Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.*



Last week, the US State department declassified its top-secret documents from 1984-85 which focus on the Pakistani nuclear programme. The CIA analysis, and the talking points for the US Ambassador to Islamabad while handing over President Ronald Reagan’s letter to General Zia-ul Haq, show that the US warned Pakistan about an Indian military attack on the Pakistani nuclear reactor at Kahuta.

But the Americans were not alone in anticipating an Indian attack. Prof Rajesh Rajagopalan of JNU recently pointed to The End of the Cold War and the Third World: New Perspectives on Regional Conflict, a book by Sergey Radchenko and Artemy M. Kalinovsky based on the declassified documents of the Eastern Block. Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.

In his book, India’s Nuclear Policy —1964-98: A Personal Recollection, K Subrahmanyam recollected that the Indian proposal to Pakistan for non-attack on each other’s nuclear facilities, which he suggested to Rajiv Gandhi, was an outcome of such rumours in the Western media. Although the ‘Agreement on the Non-Attack of Nuclear Facilities between Indian and Pakistan’ was first verbally agreed upon in 1985, it was formally signed in 1988 and ratified in 1991. Since 1992, India and Pakistan have been exchanging the list of their nuclear facilities on January 1 every year.





But how close was India to attacking Kahuta in the 1980s? The first time India is believed to have considered such an attack is in 1981. The idea obviously originated from the daring Israeli attack of June 7, 1981, that destroyed the under-construction Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak. Eight F-16s of the Israeli Air Force flew more than 600 miles in the skies of three enemy nations to destroy the target and returned unscathed.

In 1996, WPS Sidhu, senior fellow for foreign policy at Brookings India, was the first to state that after the induction of Jaguars, Indian Air Force (IAF) had conducted a brief study in June 1981 on the feasibility of attacking Kahuta. The study concluded that India could “attack and neutralise” Kahuta but feared that such an attack would result in a full-blown war between India and Pakistan. This was besides the concerns that an Indian attack will beget an immediate retaliatory — some say, even pre-emptive — Pakistani air strike on Indian nuclear facilities.

In their book, Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Conspiracy, Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark claim that Indian military officials secretly travelled to Israel in February 1983 to buy electronic warfare equipment to neutralise Kahuta’s air defences. Israel reportedly also provided India with technical details of the F-16 aircraft in exchange for Indians providing them some details about the MiG-23 aircraft. In mid- to late-1983, according to strategic affairs expert Bharat Karnad, Indira Gandhi asked the IAF once again to plan for an air strike on Kahuta.

The mission was cancelled after Pakistani nuclear scientist Munir Ahmed Khan met Indian Atomic Energy Commission chief-designate Raja Ramanna at an international meet in Vienna and threatened a retaliatory strike on Bhabha Atomic Research Centre at Trombay.

The next time India is believed to have seriously considered attacking Kahuta was in September-October 1984. Details of the Pakistani nuclear programme crossing the weaponisation enrichment threshold had then begun to emerge. As seen from documents declassified last week, on September 16, 1984, US Ambassador Dean Hinton told Zia that if the US were to see signs that India was preparing for an attack, they would notify Pakistan immediately.

On September 22, a reliable source from a foreign country — later assumed to be the CIA Deputy Director — reported to the Pakistani top brass that there was the possibility of an Indian air strike. The same day, ABC television also reported that a preemptive Indian attack on Pakistani nuclear facilities was imminent, which was based on a briefing made by the CIA to a US Senate intelligence subcommittee.

But India did not go ahead with its plans to attack Kahuta because the element of surprise was lost. According to Subrahmanyam, an increase in air defences around Kahuta was “proof, if any more were needed, that our covert intentions to hit Kahuta were not secret anymore”.

It has also been rumoured that Israeli air force was part of the plans to attack Kahuta in 1984 because it did not want to see an “Islamic Bomb” developed by Pakistan. Israel was supposed to lead this attack and not merely play the role of advising the IAF. Bharat Karnad has written that Israeli aircraft were to be staged from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat, refuel at a satellite airfield in North India and track the Himalayas to avoid early radar detection, but Indira Gandhi eventually vetoed the idea. Levy and Scott-Clark though claim that Indira Gandhi had signed off on the Israeli-led operation in March 1984 but backed off after the US state department warned India “the US will be responsive if India persists”.

Conversations with some people associated with the IAF in the early 1980s support the idea of an Israeli connection to Indian plans to attack Kahuta. It tells us that India had seriously considered attacking Kahuta three decades ago but chose not to, mainly due to the fears of a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Trombay and the danger of an isolated strike escalating into a full-blown war.


http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...litary-attack-on-a-pakistani-nuclear-reactor/

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## Cyberian

They did indeed had planned and Pakistan found out about it. As a result, the then Pakistan's Chief of the Army Staff Retired General Aslam Baig (if I remember it correctly) said to the Indians, no matter who attacks Pakistani nuclear facilities, Pakistan will hit India.

Plan was then cancelled.

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## war&peace

For us it is not a news but rather the confirmation. It is a big slap for Israeli supporters on pdf who claim that Pakistan and Israel have no issues or conflicts....But zionists are not happy with Pakistan's nuclear program. They tried in 1984, then again in 1998 and they are still not content but waiting for an opportunity but they will remain unsuccessful inshaAllah

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## Taimur Khurram

India didn't do it because it was stupid, Pakistan would have bitten back very hard like usual. Even in 1971, India had higher casualties.

As for Israel, they are a dot on the map Pakistan could crush.

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## Hindustani78

Indian Establishment policy is being always matured and Indian Military planners and intelligence agencies do have the full knowledge about the fall out.

Indian intelligence agencies were well aware about the Pakistani Nuclear programme and who were assisting the Pakistan Nuclear Programme. During the 80's , Afghanistan war was going on and even Iran-iraq war and the whole region was in choas and it was the period of the cold war. Israelis were more to end the India's relations with the traditional Arab world.

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## YeBeWarned

war&peace said:


> For us it is not a news but rather the confirmation. It is a big slap for Israeli supporters on pdf who claim that Pakistan and Israel have no issues or conflicts....But zionists are not happy with Pakistan's nuclear program. They tried in 1984, then again in 1998 and they are still not content but waiting for an opportunity but they will remain unsuccessful inshaAllah



You never Heard that " Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend " ? are we not taught to hate , kill and destroy the Zionist/Israel State ? what do you expect them to do ? send you some Fresh Candies ? Our pilots actively involved in Wars against Israel that is why they see you as Threat and try to contain you with Help of our Eternal Enemy India. have you ever try to create Diplomatic ties with them ? so many of your Arab Brothers are Enjoying the Friendly Relation with Israel yet we " Pakistani " are just following the KSA lead like a Good sheep .. or we are too afraid for the Mullah Reactions that they will destroy half of Pakistan by Shouting Allah Ho akber and Death to the Jews !! 

They plan but did not Attack and that is what matters , and if we are looking just planning as Attack than why are we still in US feet ? they plan to send us back to the stone age ? Russians help India and break half of our country , UK's Mi6 is actively Involved in Sponsoring Anti Pakistan Elements , and lets not mention what our Arab brothers have done to us in the name of Sectarian War , and the Price we pay , everyday in the streets of Pakistan ... 

Let me Clear this for you ,and other who must be getting ready to jump on me over this , I am in Favor of Pakistan and Israel Diplomatic Relations, but i Disagree with their way to tackle the Palestine Matter .. so my problem is with their State Policy not with the State, just you have the right to Exist, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah aka Quaid-e-Azam snatch a piece of Land right under the nose of Indian Hindu's and Britishers , Israel get their ... they fought and won , It is as simple as that .. you and i we both know that in future if Muslims in ME become Powerful enough the first thing they will do is wipe Israel out from the face of the earth .. 

For the sake of Peace in Region i would be happy for Pakistani Establishment to sit with Israeli counter parts and set terms for Financial , Trading , Cultural Exchange , Defense etc .. 

No country is Sane , we all have a dark past and a bloody history full of wars , Operations , Misadventures etc .. but in the end What matters is " They did not Attack Pakistan and we did not Attack them " .

P.S for some Emotional Posters , what i wrote is my Personal Opinion and you have all the right to agree or Disagree but in a Civilized manner . 

Regards .

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## tore

To enemies of Pakistan: If an attack on Pakistan happend, Pakistan would hit back on all involved parties. Dont underestimate the will of the pakistani people.

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## Indus Pakistan

I also planned a covert strike on Indian nuclear site, Trombay but my dad got wind off it and I cancelled it.
I then really was ready to strike Trombay but my mother advised me against so I cancelled it.
Then I was really serious but a Indian warned me of dire consequences so I cancelled it.
Bottom line I did f*ck all. I aint't *no* Isreali. But trust me I will make a movie "Mission Kahuta".

And as regards Israel joining in is a laughable proposition that is just milching the famed Israeli military flair for carrying out daring missions and hoping that rubs off on India. The truth is if one believes as the article claims that US would inform Pak of any potential Indian strike - it is inconcievable that Israel would carry such a attack against the wishes of United States. It is not even possible for the simple reason that during 1980s Pakistan was frontline state involved in a war against the Soviets in conjunction with USA. In this Cold War era Israel was the super ally of America and it would have never done anything that might compromise US Operation Cyclone in Afghanistan in which Pakistan was the vital partner.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

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## Hindustani78

tore said:


> To enemies of Pakistan: If an attack on Pakistan happend, Pakistan would hit back on all involved parties. Dont underestimate the will of the pakistani people.



And this has been the real reason that the whole sub continent have seen deaths and destruction of the Indian Nation.


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## war&peace

Starlord said:


> You never Heard that " Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend " ? are we not taught to hate , kill and destroy the Zionist/Israel State ? what do you expect them to do ? send you some Fresh Candies ? Our pilots actively involved in Wars against Israel that is why they see you as Threat and try to contain you with Help of our Eternal Enemy India. have you ever try to create Diplomatic ties with them ? so many of your Arab Brothers are Enjoying the Friendly Relation with Israel yet we " Pakistani " are just following the KSA lead like a Good sheep .. or we are too afraid for the Mullah Reactions that they will destroy half of Pakistan by Shouting Allah Ho akber and Death to the Jews !!
> 
> They plan but did not Attack and that is what matters , and if we are looking just planning as Attack than why are we still in US feet ? they plan to send us back to the stone age ? Russians help India and break half of our country , UK's Mi6 is actively Involved in Sponsoring Anti Pakistan Elements , and lets not mention what our Arab brothers have done to us in the name of Sectarian War , and the Price we pay , everyday in the streets of Pakistan ...
> 
> Let me Clear this for you ,and other who must be getting ready to jump on me over this , I am in Favor of Pakistan and Israel Diplomatic Relations, but i Disagree with their way to tackle the Palestine Matter .. so my problem is with their State Policy not with the State, just you have the right to Exist, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah aka Quaid-e-Azam snatch a piece of Land right under the nose of Indian Hindu's and Britishers , Israel get their ... they fought and won , It is as simple as that .. you and i we both know that in future if Muslims in ME become Powerful enough the first thing they will do is wipe Israel out from the face of the earth ..
> 
> For the sake of Peace in Region i would be happy for Pakistani Establishment to sit with Israeli counter parts and set terms for Financial , Trading , Cultural Exchange , Defense etc ..
> 
> No country is Sane , we all have a dark past and a bloody history full of wars , Operations , Misadventures etc .. but in the end What matters is " They did not Attack Pakistan and we did not Attack them " .
> 
> P.S for some Emotional Posters , what i wrote is my Personal Opinion and you have all the right to agree or Disagree but in a Civilized manner .
> 
> Regards .



First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled

I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.

No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will be nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration

Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.

You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.

Israel was created by the British through military intervention and Jews were brought there from all over the world..I think you are not goof enough to believe that the Ashkenazi Jews are original inhabitants of the region Right? so Israel was created through an illegal occupation and still the problem is growing as the process of colonisation is still going on and Palestinian territory is constantly shrinking along with the worst possible human rights violations and genocide.
I think you should get some quality books on history since the education system you have been through didn't do much for raising your knowledge of history. Just for a hint....even Kenya was considered for housing an Israel.

Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.

Now their plan to attack Pakistan's nuclear plant was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...

In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.

And would you like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other so I need some clear evidence to understand your point...

I think I have refuted most of your points through knowledgeable and logical counter arguments and kept my word and I would expect you to do the same and suggest you do some reading.

Regards,
WnP
@salarsikander @Khafee

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## Thəorətic Muslim

war&peace said:


> Now their plan to attack was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country helped shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy.



And the Americans had a plan to seize Saudi Oil Fields.

Algeria, land of a million martyrs, has relations with the French.

America supported Panama independence from Columbia.

France support American independence from the UK.

Italy back-stabbed Germany & Austria during WW1.

The List goes on bro.

It's common knowledge the US gave Pakistan the intel, there's no harm in admitting it.

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## The Sandman

war&peace said:


> First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled
> 
> I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.
> 
> No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration
> 
> Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.
> 
> You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.
> 
> Israel was created by the British through military intervention and Jews were brought there from all over the world..I think you are not goof enough to believe that the Ashkenazi Jews are original inhabitants of the region Right? so Israel was created through an illegal occupation and still the problem is growing as the process of colonisation is still going on and Palestinian territory is constantly shrinking along with the worst possible human rights violations and genocide.
> I think you should get some quality books on history since the education system you have been through didn't do much for raising your knowledge of history. Just for gibing a hint....even Kenya was considered for housing an Israel.
> 
> Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.
> 
> Now their plan to attack was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country helped shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...
> 
> In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.
> 
> And would like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other how I need some clear evidence to understand your point...
> 
> I think I have refuted most of your points through knowledge and logical counter arguments and kept my word and I would expect you to do the same and suggest you do some reading.
> 
> Regards,
> WnP
> @salarsikander @Khafee


Excellent post deserves a green tick imo.
@Moonlight @django @Mentee 
@Zibago

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## Hellfire

@war&peace

One inaccuracy. No Israeli aircraft had come to India. The US scuttled Israeli plans by telling them to back off as Soviets were beginning to enter Afghanistan.

It is a popular Pakistani misconception that the strike got called off due to Pakistan treatening Israel wih retaliation or India with same. Pakistan was told later by US.

The only reason why India was not keen was retaliation would have come and would have triggered a major war, and Israel did not want a repeat of Suez Adventure of 1956.

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## ConcealCarry

That is why these fucking rats are untrustworthy. They have always been and will continue to in the future, look for opportunities to harm Pakistan. 






kahonapyarhai said:


> *Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.*
> 
> 
> 
> Last week, the US State department declassified its top-secret documents from 1984-85 which focus on the Pakistani nuclear programme. The CIA analysis, and the talking points for the US Ambassador to Islamabad while handing over President Ronald Reagan’s letter to General Zia-ul Haq, show that the US warned Pakistan about an Indian military attack on the Pakistani nuclear reactor at Kahuta.
> 
> But the Americans were not alone in anticipating an Indian attack. Prof Rajesh Rajagopalan of JNU recently pointed to The End of the Cold War and the Third World: New Perspectives on Regional Conflict, a book by Sergey Radchenko and Artemy M. Kalinovsky based on the declassified documents of the Eastern Block. Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.
> 
> In his book, India’s Nuclear Policy —1964-98: A Personal Recollection, K Subrahmanyam recollected that the Indian proposal to Pakistan for non-attack on each other’s nuclear facilities, which he suggested to Rajiv Gandhi, was an outcome of such rumours in the Western media. Although the ‘Agreement on the Non-Attack of Nuclear Facilities between Indian and Pakistan’ was first verbally agreed upon in 1985, it was formally signed in 1988 and ratified in 1991. Since 1992, India and Pakistan have been exchanging the list of their nuclear facilities on January 1 every year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how close was India to attacking Kahuta in the 1980s? The first time India is believed to have considered such an attack is in 1981. The idea obviously originated from the daring Israeli attack of June 7, 1981, that destroyed the under-construction Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak. Eight F-16s of the Israeli Air Force flew more than 600 miles in the skies of three enemy nations to destroy the target and returned unscathed.
> 
> In 1996, WPS Sidhu, senior fellow for foreign policy at Brookings India, was the first to state that after the induction of Jaguars, Indian Air Force (IAF) had conducted a brief study in June 1981 on the feasibility of attacking Kahuta. The study concluded that India could “attack and neutralise” Kahuta but feared that such an attack would result in a full-blown war between India and Pakistan. This was besides the concerns that an Indian attack will beget an immediate retaliatory — some say, even pre-emptive — Pakistani air strike on Indian nuclear facilities.
> 
> In their book, Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Conspiracy, Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark claim that Indian military officials secretly travelled to Israel in February 1983 to buy electronic warfare equipment to neutralise Kahuta’s air defences. Israel reportedly also provided India with technical details of the F-16 aircraft in exchange for Indians providing them some details about the MiG-23 aircraft. In mid- to late-1983, according to strategic affairs expert Bharat Karnad, Indira Gandhi asked the IAF once again to plan for an air strike on Kahuta.
> 
> The mission was cancelled after Pakistani nuclear scientist Munir Ahmed Khan met Indian Atomic Energy Commission chief-designate Raja Ramanna at an international meet in Vienna and threatened a retaliatory strike on Bhabha Atomic Research Centre at Trombay.
> 
> The next time India is believed to have seriously considered attacking Kahuta was in September-October 1984. Details of the Pakistani nuclear programme crossing the weaponisation enrichment threshold had then begun to emerge. As seen from documents declassified last week, on September 16, 1984, US Ambassador Dean Hinton told Zia that if the US were to see signs that India was preparing for an attack, they would notify Pakistan immediately.
> 
> On September 22, a reliable source from a foreign country — later assumed to be the CIA Deputy Director — reported to the Pakistani top brass that there was the possibility of an Indian air strike. The same day, ABC television also reported that a preemptive Indian attack on Pakistani nuclear facilities was imminent, which was based on a briefing made by the CIA to a US Senate intelligence subcommittee.
> 
> But India did not go ahead with its plans to attack Kahuta because the element of surprise was lost. According to Subrahmanyam, an increase in air defences around Kahuta was “proof, if any more were needed, that our covert intentions to hit Kahuta were not secret anymore”.
> 
> It has also been rumoured that Israeli air force was part of the plans to attack Kahuta in 1984 because it did not want to see an “Islamic Bomb” developed by Pakistan. Israel was supposed to lead this attack and not merely play the role of advising the IAF. Bharat Karnad has written that Israeli aircraft were to be staged from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat, refuel at a satellite airfield in North India and track the Himalayas to avoid early radar detection, but Indira Gandhi eventually vetoed the idea. Levy and Scott-Clark though claim that Indira Gandhi had signed off on the Israeli-led operation in March 1984 but backed off after the US state department warned India “the US will be responsive if India persists”.
> 
> Conversations with some people associated with the IAF in the early 1980s support the idea of an Israeli connection to Indian plans to attack Kahuta. It tells us that India had seriously considered attacking Kahuta three decades ago but chose not to, mainly due to the fears of a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Trombay and the danger of an isolated strike escalating into a full-blown war.
> 
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...litary-attack-on-a-pakistani-nuclear-reactor/

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## war&peace

hellfire said:


> @war&peace
> 
> One inaccuracy. No Israeli aircraft had come to India. The US scuttled Israeli plans by telling them to back off as Soviets were beginning to enter Afghanistan.
> 
> It is a popular Pakistani misconception that the strike got called off due to Pakistan treatening Israel wih retaliation or India with same. Pakistan was told later by US.
> 
> The only reason why India was not keen was retaliation would have come and would have triggered a major war, and Israel did not want a repeat of Suez Adventure of 1956.



I will look into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....

Just off topic...now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.

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## Rashid Mahmood

Old news.

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## Hellfire

war&peace said:


> *I will into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India* but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....



Bold portion is totally incorrect. Figment of imagination. PM Morarji Desai was approached by Israel in 1977 to attack Kahuta reactor. The then GoI refused it as India was not keen on a wider war due to the post-1974 (Nuclear Test and the effective use of NPT to 'whip' India by using the supply of nuclear fuel to TAPS) and post-Nixon era, wherein Pakistan was again given overt support by US.

They instead suggested Israel to carry out a strike if they wanted from their own soil. In 1982-83 again an offer was made, but this time US clearly stopped the idea in nascent stage with Israel. This was pre-dominantly due to the centrality of Pakistan in the Afghanistan Campaign against the Soviets. One has to recall that both India and Pakistan signed an agreement in 1985 not to attack each other's nuclear facilities. One can be sardonic and attribute it to acquisition of F-16s compelling India or whatever, that is figment of fanboy imagination. The issue was that there was a mutual recognition of the immense destruction of this act and pragmatism.

Unlike what many of our compatriots from sub-continent would like to portray, and amongst all the jingoism, both the countries have very mature foreign policy especially with regards to each other.

An interesting read:

https://archive.org/stream/unitedstatespoli00cock/unitedstatespoli00cock_djvu.txt



war&peace said:


> Just off topic...*now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that*? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.



_Au contraire_, I would suggest you to read the Chinese philosophy of governance and management of international relations historically.

The Chinese have historically considered themselves the cradle of civilisation for thousands of years. While other countries were named after ethnic groups or geographical landmarks, China called itself *zhongguo*—the “*Middle Kingdom*” or the “*Central Country*.” Indeed, there is a very fine quality of the Chinese as people and as a civilisation, which was shared by India too, that of absorbing all those who actually invaded China and subsequently absorbing them into the Chinese culture and system of values. They have a very firm and perpetual belief system in the uniqueness of their civilisation as a whole.

In earlier days it supported a conception of the Emperor as a figure of universal consequence, presiding over *tian xia,* or “*All Under Heaven*” (you might have seen this concept in Jet Li's movie *The Hero*). This concept was further unique in the sense that the Chinese, after these people were absorbed, considered the original territory that they hailed from, to be a part of China! (It is here that the present Sino-Russian treaty is going to be an issue a couple of decades from now; Siberia and outer Mongolia was under the Chinese control till mid-1800s when Russia, in the garb of being supportive of China in face of British led aggression, simply annexed these territories)

Not the least exceptional aspect of Chinese culture is that these values were essentially secular in nature. At the time when Hinduism and Buddhism appeared in Indian culture stressing contemplation and inner peace, and monotheism was proclaimed by the Jewish—and, later, Christian and Islamic—prophets with an evocation of a life after death, China produced no religious themes in the Western sense at all.

The Chinese never generated a myth of any kind of cosmic creation.Their universe was created by the Chinese themselves, whose values, even when declared of universal applicability, were conceived of as Chinese in origin (Chinese by itself being a very loose term if you analyse the history). The predominant values of Chinese society were derived from the prescriptions of an ancient philosopher *Kong Fu-zi* (or “Confucius”), indeed the influence of the same can still be seen in China.

Further, the Chinese had a very simple philosophy of never seeking any confrontation with any nation. They still do not seek any confrontation if you see their method of management of International Relations. Their concept can be akin to their game _Wei Qi_ or as Japanese call it "Go". The game, unlike chess where you have winners and losers being decided by outright killing of each others pieces with some manoeuvres, does not involve anything more than deftness in manoeuvre to attain "_strategic_" victory without actual fighting. One can say a fine blend of _Wei Qi_ and _Sun Tzu_ to simplify things.

It has relied on a combination of strategic thinking and manoeuvring coupled to the projection of a soft power and diplomacy (evident in Africa and most of South-East Asia and Pakistan upto Central Asian Republics including Russia). Through trade incentives and skilful use of political theatre, China coaxed neighbouring countries/kingdoms into observing the norms of Chinese centrality while projecting an image of awesome “majesty” to deter potential invaders from testing China’s strength. Its goal was not to conquer and subjugate the barbarians but to “_rule [them] with a loose rein_” (*ji mi*). For those who would not fall in line with the Chinese perspective of things/issues, China would exploit divisions among them, famously “*using barbarians to check barbarians*” and, when necessary, “*using barbarians to attack barbarians*”

This is where, the Sino-Pak relationship has it’s roots. If you trace the history of the Sino-Pak Border Agreement, you will find this principle fitting neatly into the overall picture as described above.

If you look at the Sino-Indian War of 1962 specifically, the Chinese created conditions wherein Nehru resorted to a forward policy which resulted in Chinese specifically only targeting the Indian position across MacMahon Line in the first clash of 1962.

Pertinent to note is the fact that in 1962 Mao had told his commanders that China had previously fought “one and a half” wars with India (here people will try and object that India never existed, a fallacy of less enlightened minds; the Chinese recorded existence of the nation of India known as _Tianzhu _or _Shendu_). This was something wherein it indicated that the Communist Party of China was not rampant in it’s efforts to re-write the history and ignore their history. Rather, it was to define the Chinese policy under the Communist.

Beijing could draw operational lessons from each of the aforementioned conflicts. The first war had occurred over 1,300 years earlier, during the Tang Dynasty (618–907), when China dispatched troops to support an Indian kingdom against an illegitimate and aggressive rival. After China’s intervention, the two countries had enjoyed centuries of flourishing religious and economic exchange. The lesson learned from the ancient campaign, as Mao described it, was that China and India were not doomed to perpetual enmity. They could enjoy a long period of peace again, but to do so, China had to use force to “knock” India back “to the negotiating table.” The “half war,” in Mao’s mind, had taken place seven hundred years later, when the Mongol ruler Timurlane sacked Delhi. (Mao reasoned that since Mongolia and China were then part of the same political entity, this was a “half” Sino-Indian war.) Timurlane had won a significant victory, but once in India his army had killed over 100,000 prisoners. This time, Mao enjoined his Chinese forces to be “restrained and principled.”

So, in a nutshell, what India is doing, is trying to bolster itself on a dual front. The narrative above is something that I could pen in a hurried manner. Hope this does give a bit of a glimpse into Chinese thinking as can be made out.


@nair @Joe Shearer

Anything you would like to add here?

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## Joe Shearer

war&peace said:


> I will into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....
> 
> Just off topic...now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.



No foreign aircraft have ever in the history of independent India been parked on Indian airfields preparatory to an air strike. Never ever. Other than US planes stopping in transit to Afghanistan, with event by event permission taken in advance.



war&peace said:


> I will into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....
> 
> Just off topic...now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.




What does that mean?

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## Indo-Pak

Propaganda.. its an old chest thumping propaganda.. 

When India and Pak are adversary, its evident that they will plan to stop each other from getting weapons..

don't u think India lobby in west to hold pakistani weapon? 
and Pakistani lobby try to disadvantage india??


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## coffee_cup

hellfire said:


> *One has to recall that both India and Pakistan signed an agreement in 1985* not to attack each other's nuclear facilities. One can be sardonic and attribute it to acquisition of F-16s compelling India or whatever, that is figment of fanboy imagination. The issue was that there was a mutual recognition of the immense destruction of this act and pragmatism.



Small correction for bold part: "Verbally agreed upon" in 1985, signed in 1988 and ratified in 1991/92.

And both sides have their own versions with bits that suit their narratives, you have yours and we have ours.

Truth lies somewhere in between.

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## war&peace

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> And the Americans had a plan to seize Saudi Oil Fields.
> 
> Algeria, land of a million martyrs, has relations with the French.
> 
> America supported Panama independence from Columbia.
> 
> France support American independence from the UK.
> 
> Italy back-stabbed Germany & Austria during WW1.
> 
> The List goes on bro.
> 
> *It's common knowledge the US gave Pakistan the intel, there's no harm in admitting it*.


I did not claim otherwise in my post..


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## Guerrero

SUPARCO said:


> They did indeed had planned and Pakistan found out about it. As a result, the then Pakistan's Chief of the Army Staff Retired General Aslam Baig (if I remember it correctly) said to the Indians*, no matter who attacks Pakistani nuclear facilities, Pakistan will hit India*.
> 
> Plan was then cancelled.


 lmao


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## YeBeWarned

war&peace said:


> First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled



Glad that you are a sane poster which is hard to find on PDF these days to have good conversation with ..
for the record i did not Exaggerated anything but it was what i think and my own PERSONAL Observation with respect to my limited knowledge ..



war&peace said:


> I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.



I haven't been taught anything about Jews anyway , when i was in school i care less for Jews and International politics but what my concern was that some how my crush take the seat right behind me .. but lets admit that almost 60% of Pakistani Population is some way hate the Existence of Israel and Jews and most of them don't even know why we hate them except what they understand from reading Quran and thing they be taught by their Madarsas teachers ..
you have to admit that our society have a significant amount of hate against the Jews and Israel reason can differ ..



war&peace said:


> No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration



well KSA does enjoy a relationship but they never make it official , and you guess it right Public reaction and fear .. not because they are actually following the lead of Prophet or Allah ..I don't want to bring Iran into this we can discuss it on some other thread .. I am sorry to say but Pakistani's never have their own Principles except for Quaid-e-Azam Vision rest is just we follow the lead someone , now what you say about Mushy was right , and i would not hesitate to say that if someone from our Army or Establishment have some negative reactions over this than it was very stupid and unprofessional reaction. Pakistan is not a Banana state we must have relations with everyone .. you can that when we need spare part from Israel we did talk to them and when we don't we curse behind their backs .. that is a bit hypocritical . My believe matters less here when it comes how this country must Govern itself .. Lots of People want Shariah in Pakistan but i would rather move to some other country than living under Shariah when i know it wont even close to what Shariah really is ..



war&peace said:


> Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.



Ok fair enough.. but don't you think it was a unprofessional move by our Pilots to poke their nose into other's matters and war ? or we can say they have that same Religious Theology somewhere back in their minds that we must Fight the Jews ? Lets just not blame the Jews here , lets not Forget that Palestinian people living in US , and west they willingly sell their Land and property to Jews where Settlements been created . right now i don't have the link but anyone who knows the History of the land can help you , or when i get time i will search and post it for you ..
so Either its for Defending or Assaulting Pakistani entering in other war is not a suitable option .. if those pilots were Professional than why not today our Pilots are taking active part in Arab wars ? and why not we Send our Army to Protect the Holy land ? were these Pilots and Forces Professionals were better Muslim than we have today ?? NO
what ever our pilots did was on their own , so i wont comment on that, but from my Side i would not recommend it cause we have see how it turn out when you poke your nose into others wars .



war&peace said:


> You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.



Lets not get into that Debate cause before that , Greek rules the Land ... and what if Today Persians claim their right to rule the land they once have ? lets not forget we Muslims also were invading force at some Stage .. and Don't Indian Side Muslims Migrated to Pakistan ? I am one of them 



war&peace said:


> Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.



Why you care for what their Agenda is ? did we all not have such Agenda's ? Are you not Waiting for Mehdi to come and State the Holy Wars to let Islam Dominate the world ? so why are you so critics about their Expansions when you believe in expansion by series of Wars which is Foretold by our Prophet ?
What my point is , That we all have some sort of Agenda and it is the rule of the world that who ever holds the power suppress the Weak , Take lands and later we just rewrite the History as we want it .. Our mostly Beloved Rahidun Caliphate were invading force once when they attack Byzentine and Persian Empire for the expansion of Islam .. now just because you and other 1.5 billion Muslims think Islam is only true Religion does not mean other don't feel the same for their own faith and can not have some Expansion plans .. Even Hindu's are waiting for some Sort of higher Deity ..



war&peace said:


> Now their plan to attack Pakistan's nuclear plant was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...



You did not carefully read what i wrote did you ? I clearly mentioned that so many countries have plans to Destroy or break you in Past , or should i post the MAP released by American " Cheetha " where he divided Pakistan into Several independent States ? now we still have Diplomatic ties with America Don't we ? American give a direct threat to Pakistan to bomb us and yet we have their Consulates and Embassy ? so why can't we have same with Israel ? i never heard some Statement from Israel to break Pakistan or threat to Nukes us ? and what about India ? they are trying their luck for 7 decades now but we still make trade with them , give them title of Most favorite nation .. yet we have Likes of Kulbhoshan Yadev roaming in Baluchistan ..
What matter is that they did not attack you .. planning and attacking are two different things to me at least .
I don't Consider Planning as a real Attack on me or my Nation .. its like i go to a Police Office and file an FIR against someone by claiming that certain man is just planning to Kill me from like 70 years yet he never say or try anything ..



war&peace said:


> In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.



What they did in Past is Past .. and it now buried deep in the Bodies of Innocent who died in the hands of Those invading forces who Capture the holy Land, I won't be jumping on what Hazart Omar ibn Khattab did with Jews/Christians cause that was the past , the world move and we are still living in Past ..
and lets be Vivd about the truth , we both know when we get Power what we will be doing with the Jews , and the Jews are doing the same with Muslims today .. they have the power today , " Jis ki lathi , us ki benhs " .



war&peace said:


> *And would you like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other so I need some clear evidence to understand your point...*



I will reply for this bold part later cause i have to go for now .. but i will get back to you on this .

Have a Great day, and by the way I am not a Senior member .. just a newbie 

Regards .

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## Leviza

> It tells us that India had seriously considered attacking Kahuta three decades ago but chose not to, *mainly due to the fears of a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Trombay* and the danger of an isolated strike escalating into a full-blown war.



This tells the story of Pakistan armed forces, they are always prepared ...


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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

pakistan threatened to lay nuclear waste on israel nuclear plant in case they carried attack.


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## CorporateAffairs

Thread title


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## Isotope

kahonapyarhai said:


> *Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.*
> 
> 
> 
> Last week, the US State department declassified its top-secret documents from 1984-85 which focus on the Pakistani nuclear programme. The CIA analysis, and the talking points for the US Ambassador to Islamabad while handing over President Ronald Reagan’s letter to General Zia-ul Haq, show that the US warned Pakistan about an Indian military attack on the Pakistani nuclear reactor at Kahuta.
> 
> But the Americans were not alone in anticipating an Indian attack. Prof Rajesh Rajagopalan of JNU recently pointed to The End of the Cold War and the Third World: New Perspectives on Regional Conflict, a book by Sergey Radchenko and Artemy M. Kalinovsky based on the declassified documents of the Eastern Block. Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.
> 
> In his book, India’s Nuclear Policy —1964-98: A Personal Recollection, K Subrahmanyam recollected that the Indian proposal to Pakistan for non-attack on each other’s nuclear facilities, which he suggested to Rajiv Gandhi, was an outcome of such rumours in the Western media. Although the ‘Agreement on the Non-Attack of Nuclear Facilities between Indian and Pakistan’ was first verbally agreed upon in 1985, it was formally signed in 1988 and ratified in 1991. Since 1992, India and Pakistan have been exchanging the list of their nuclear facilities on January 1 every year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how close was India to attacking Kahuta in the 1980s? The first time India is believed to have considered such an attack is in 1981. The idea obviously originated from the daring Israeli attack of June 7, 1981, that destroyed the under-construction Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak. Eight F-16s of the Israeli Air Force flew more than 600 miles in the skies of three enemy nations to destroy the target and returned unscathed.
> 
> In 1996, WPS Sidhu, senior fellow for foreign policy at Brookings India, was the first to state that after the induction of Jaguars, Indian Air Force (IAF) had conducted a brief study in June 1981 on the feasibility of attacking Kahuta. The study concluded that India could “attack and neutralise” Kahuta but feared that such an attack would result in a full-blown war between India and Pakistan. This was besides the concerns that an Indian attack will beget an immediate retaliatory — some say, even pre-emptive — Pakistani air strike on Indian nuclear facilities.
> 
> In their book, Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Conspiracy, Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark claim that Indian military officials secretly travelled to Israel in February 1983 to buy electronic warfare equipment to neutralise Kahuta’s air defences. Israel reportedly also provided India with technical details of the F-16 aircraft in exchange for Indians providing them some details about the MiG-23 aircraft. In mid- to late-1983, according to strategic affairs expert Bharat Karnad, Indira Gandhi asked the IAF once again to plan for an air strike on Kahuta.
> 
> The mission was cancelled after Pakistani nuclear scientist Munir Ahmed Khan met Indian Atomic Energy Commission chief-designate Raja Ramanna at an international meet in Vienna and threatened a retaliatory strike on Bhabha Atomic Research Centre at Trombay.
> 
> The next time India is believed to have seriously considered attacking Kahuta was in September-October 1984. Details of the Pakistani nuclear programme crossing the weaponisation enrichment threshold had then begun to emerge. As seen from documents declassified last week, on September 16, 1984, US Ambassador Dean Hinton told Zia that if the US were to see signs that India was preparing for an attack, they would notify Pakistan immediately.
> 
> On September 22, a reliable source from a foreign country — later assumed to be the CIA Deputy Director — reported to the Pakistani top brass that there was the possibility of an Indian air strike. The same day, ABC television also reported that a preemptive Indian attack on Pakistani nuclear facilities was imminent, which was based on a briefing made by the CIA to a US Senate intelligence subcommittee.
> 
> But India did not go ahead with its plans to attack Kahuta because the element of surprise was lost. According to Subrahmanyam, an increase in air defences around Kahuta was “proof, if any more were needed, that our covert intentions to hit Kahuta were not secret anymore”.
> 
> It has also been rumoured that Israeli air force was part of the plans to attack Kahuta in 1984 because it did not want to see an “Islamic Bomb” developed by Pakistan. Israel was supposed to lead this attack and not merely play the role of advising the IAF. Bharat Karnad has written that Israeli aircraft were to be staged from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat, refuel at a satellite airfield in North India and track the Himalayas to avoid early radar detection, but Indira Gandhi eventually vetoed the idea. Levy and Scott-Clark though claim that Indira Gandhi had signed off on the Israeli-led operation in March 1984 but backed off after the US state department warned India “the US will be responsive if India persists”.
> 
> Conversations with some people associated with the IAF in the early 1980s support the idea of an Israeli connection to Indian plans to attack Kahuta. It tells us that India had seriously considered attacking Kahuta three decades ago but chose not to, mainly due to the fears of a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Trombay and the danger of an isolated strike escalating into a full-blown war.
> 
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...litary-attack-on-a-pakistani-nuclear-reactor/


Back then, America used to be Pakistan's well wisher.


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## Isotope

Hindustani78 said:


> Indian Establishment policy is being always matured and Indian Military planners and intelligence agencies do have the full knowledge about the fall out.
> 
> Indian intelligence agencies were well aware about the Pakistani Nuclear programme and who were assisting the Pakistan Nuclear Programme. During the 80's , Afghanistan war was going on and even Iran-iraq war and the whole region was in choas and it was the period of the cold war. Israelis were more to end the India's relations with the traditional Arab world.



I am not sure about the maturity part of the Indian establishment. After all they were diligently working on it.

The attack would have definitely been carried out by these so called mature people if the cat was not out of the bag. in return, Pakistan would have retaliated back with full force. After triggering a full scale war between the two countries, Israelis would have safely flown back to their safe homes in far way Middle East without a single scratch on them, while we would have annihilated each other.


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## Hindustani78

Isotope said:


> I am not sure about the maturity part of the Indian establishment. After all they were diligently working on it.
> 
> The attack would have definitely been carried out by these so called mature people if the cat was not out of the bag. in return, Pakistan would have retaliated back with full force. *After triggering a full scale war between the two countries, Israelis would have safely flown back to their safe homes in far way Middle East without a single scratch on them, while we would have annihilated each other.*




Cant you see the maturity shown by the Indian military even during that time ?

Quam , if this term you would have understand then you would have not ask me this.

Mao mamu kay bhanje aur bhatije . Woh hum Hindustanis nahi hai.


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## Sine Nomine

Starlord said:


> Population is some way hate the Existence of Israel and Jews and most of them don't even know why we hate them except what they understand from reading Quran and thing they be taught by their Madarsas teachers ..


Well If you have gone through chapter's of Quran,you won't have made that lame claim that it tought us to hate jews,before balfour declaration these jews were living in ottoman empire and flourished alot at same time they were treated in worst way in Europe.We hate jews not because they are jews because we can see the chaos that area has witnessed after 1948.And you well know why that area is in chaos.

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## Talha Baloch

the Attack cancelled because *ISI *was not sleeping and *PAF* is fully ready to respond both isreal and india.

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## A.P. Richelieu

tore said:


> To enemies of Pakistan: If an attack on Pakistan happend, Pakistan would hit back on all involved parties. Dont underestimate the will of the pakistani people.




I got news for You:
The US is attacking targets within Pakistan quite frequently.
Eagerly awaiting the response...

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## Finer

Starlord said:


> You never Heard that " Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend " ? are we not taught to hate , kill and destroy the Zionist/Israel State ? what do you expect them to do ? send you some Fresh Candies ? Our pilots actively involved in Wars against Israel that is why they see you as Threat and try to contain you with Help of our Eternal Enemy India. have you ever try to create Diplomatic ties with them ? so many of your Arab Brothers are Enjoying the Friendly Relation with Israel yet we " Pakistani " are just following the KSA lead like a Good sheep .. or we are too afraid for the Mullah Reactions that they will destroy half of Pakistan by Shouting Allah Ho akber and Death to the Jews !!
> 
> They plan but did not Attack and that is what matters , and if we are looking just planning as Attack than why are we still in US feet ? they plan to send us back to the stone age ? Russians help India and break half of our country , UK's Mi6 is actively Involved in Sponsoring Anti Pakistan Elements , and lets not mention what our Arab brothers have done to us in the name of Sectarian War , and the Price we pay , everyday in the streets of Pakistan ...
> 
> Let me Clear this for you ,and other who must be getting ready to jump on me over this , I am in Favor of Pakistan and Israel Diplomatic Relations, but i Disagree with their way to tackle the Palestine Matter .. so my problem is with their State Policy not with the State, just you have the right to Exist, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah aka Quaid-e-Azam snatch a piece of Land right under the nose of Indian Hindu's and Britishers , Israel get their ... they fought and won , It is as simple as that .. you and i we both know that in future if Muslims in ME become Powerful enough the first thing they will do is wipe Israel out from the face of the earth ..
> 
> For the sake of Peace in Region i would be happy for Pakistani Establishment to sit with Israeli counter parts and set terms for Financial , Trading , Cultural Exchange , Defense etc ..
> 
> No country is Sane , we all have a dark past and a bloody history full of wars , Operations , Misadventures etc .. but in the end What matters is " They did not Attack Pakistan and we did not Attack them " .
> 
> P.S for some Emotional Posters , what i wrote is my Personal Opinion and you have all the right to agree or Disagree but in a Civilized manner .
> 
> Regards .



It was sealed the moment; *Jinnah said, "Arabs are our brothers and we will never betray our brothers"* along with that line. That was the moment the diplomatic relationship between Israel and Pakistan was out of the question. Not only that, it pushed Israel towards India. I guess that was inevitable. Diplomatic relationship between Israel and Pakistan is beginning to remain fleeting dream now.

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## A.P. Richelieu

war&peace said:


> You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.
> 
> Israel was created by the British through military intervention and Jews were brought there from all over the world..I think you are not goof enough to believe that the Ashkenazi Jews are original inhabitants of the region Right? so Israel was created through an illegal occupation and still the problem is growing as the process of colonisation is still going on and Palestinian territory is constantly shrinking along with the worst possible human rights violations and genocide.
> I think you should get some quality books on history since the education system you have been through didn't do much for raising your knowledge of history. Just for a hint....even Kenya was considered for housing an Israel.
> @salarsikander @Khafee



The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
A vote where Great Britain abstained.
All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
Thus You can say that Israel is the only country that has existed in the area
which is based on International Law.

The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.
Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,
and the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.

Get your history right...



Talha Baloch said:


> the Attack cancelled because *ISI *was not sleeping and *PAF* is fully ready to respond both isreal and india.



Yes, they came to work as usual, 11:15 in the morning, and read their CIA email right after lunch 14:45.
Or do you have a different explanation?

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## war&peace

CorporateAffairs said:


> Thread title [/QUOTE





A.P. Richelieu said:


> The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
> A vote where Great Britain abstained.
> All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
> Thus You can say that Israel is the only country that has existed in the area
> which is based on International Law.
> 
> The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
> and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.
> Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,
> and the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
> The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.
> 
> Get your history right...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they came to work as usual, 11:15 in the morning, and read their CIA email right after lunch 14:45.
> Or do you have a different explanation?


I don't reply trolls and liars

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## YeBeWarned

Fallen King said:


> It was sealed the moment; *Jinnah said, "Arabs are our brothers and we will never betray our brothers"* along with that line. That was the moment the diplomatic relationship between Israel and Pakistan was out of the question. Not only that, it pushed Israel towards India. I guess that was inevitable. Diplomatic relationship between Israel and Pakistan is beginning to remain fleeting dream now.



Jinnah Called Arabs Brothers but he does not said Jews as Enemies .. and wait , do i have to remind you what our Arab Brothers did to us ?

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## Isotope

Hindustani78 said:


> Cant you see the maturity shown by the Indian military even during that time ?
> 
> Quam , if this term you would have understand then you would have not ask me this.
> 
> Mao mamu kay bhanje aur bhatije . Woh hum Hindustanis nahi hai.


India backed down for its own survival's sake and to protect its own nuclear assets just as the article states. The fear of retaliation was too great to be ignored. It was nothing but fear.


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## A.P. Richelieu

war&peace said:


> I don't reply trolls and liars



And since You replied, I guess You agree...
You know that every point in my posting is true, but that does not fit Your agenda.

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## Taimur Khurram

A.P. Richelieu said:


> I got news for You:
> The US is attacking targets within Pakistan quite frequently.
> Eagerly awaiting the response...



I got news for you:

The PA is authorising them to do so, and they are our allies who pump us with cash. We won't respond until the bank goes dry.


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## Thermobaric

Joe Shearer said:


> No foreign aircraft have ever in the history of independent India been parked on Indian airfields preparatory to an air strike. Never ever. Other than US planes stopping in transit to Afghanistan, with event by event permission taken in advance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does that mean?


They have planned and conspire but Israel and eventually Indian backed off when Dr. Munir Khan invited Indian counterpart and told / warns about the similar counter plans of Pakistan against the Indian installations.

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## Daghalodi

war&peace said:


> First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled
> 
> I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.
> 
> No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will be nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration
> 
> Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.
> 
> You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.
> 
> Israel was created by the British through military intervention and Jews were brought there from all over the world..I think you are not goof enough to believe that the Ashkenazi Jews are original inhabitants of the region Right? so Israel was created through an illegal occupation and still the problem is growing as the process of colonisation is still going on and Palestinian territory is constantly shrinking along with the worst possible human rights violations and genocide.
> I think you should get some quality books on history since the education system you have been through didn't do much for raising your knowledge of history. Just for a hint....even Kenya was considered for housing an Israel.
> 
> Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.
> 
> Now their plan to attack Pakistan's nuclear plant was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...
> 
> In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.
> 
> And would you like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other so I need some clear evidence to understand your point...
> 
> I think I have refuted most of your points through knowledgeable and logical counter arguments and kept my word and I would expect you to do the same and suggest you do some reading.
> 
> Regards,
> WnP
> @salarsikander @Khafee



Brilliant !!! Absolutely brilliant , try reading why Hitler went to war with ashkenazim before world war 2.


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## tore

A.P. Richelieu said:


> I got news for You:
> The US is attacking targets within Pakistan quite frequently.
> Eagerly awaiting the response...


-------------------------------------

Why did a swede feel the need to answer........

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## Joe Shearer

Thermobaric said:


> They have planned and conspire but Israel and eventually Indian backed off when Dr. Munir Khan invited Indian counterpart and told / warns about the similar counter plans of Pakistan against the Indian installations.



I made a specific reply to a specific allegation,and have no evidence about these mysterious invitations and conversations which seem to be public property. I have no idea who Dr. Munir Khan is, and what authority he had to discuss possible military plans with a shadowy Indian counter-part; I have no idea who this Indian counter-part might be. 

My posts are exclusively based on historically verified and accepted accounts, and on personally known facts and events, or those narrated by very reliable sources personally known to me.

It is not possible for me to do more than read your post and acknowledge having read it. On the face of it, it sounds like one more conspiracy theory, with no backing but the mutually supportive accounts of fan-boys on Internet fora.


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## Thermobaric

Joe Shearer said:


> I made a specific reply to a specific allegation,and have no evidence about these mysterious invitations and conversations which seem to be public property. I have no idea who Dr. Munir Khan is, and what authority he had to discuss possible military plans with a shadowy Indian counter-part; I have no idea who this Indian counter-part might be.
> 
> My posts are exclusively based on historically verified and accepted accounts, and on personally known facts and events, or those narrated by very reliable sources personally known to me.
> 
> It is not possible for me to do more than read your post and acknowledge having read it. On the face of it, it sounds like one more conspiracy theory, with no backing but the mutually supportive accounts of fan-boys on Internet fora.


Dr. Munir got the opportunity and sort permission which was granted from authorities, Since our version of history (Indian & Pakistani) written as per our wishes and likings hence no need to confirm it or you can simply refute it but reality is that Israel and Indian planned the attacks but abandoned the idea for some serious retaliation fears.

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## Joe Shearer

war&peace said:


> I don't reply trolls and liars



Which part was a lie?


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## Hellfire

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> Praise be to Allaah.
> 
> It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘*The Jews will fight you and you will prevail over them, then a rock will say, “O Muslim, here is a Jew behind me, (come and) kill him.”*’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3593).




So, by the above, am I to assume that it is the duty of every Muslim to kill a Jew?


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## Thermobaric

hellfire said:


> So, by the above, am I to assume that it is the duty of every Muslim to kill a Jew?


No all the pagans aka Kafirs who wages war against Islam and Muslims.
Indian claimed it and now get ready to taste the real one.


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## Joe Shearer

Thermobaric said:


> Dr. Munir got the opportunity and sort permission which was granted from authorities, Since our version of history (Indian & Pakistani) written as per our wishes and likings hence no need to confirm it or you can simply refute it but reality is that Israel and Indian planned the attacks but abandoned the idea for some serious retaliation fears.



There is no history here. Read the documents and citations in the OP. If you have something material to add, add it. Please do not clothe your personal lack of knowledge with the garb of history and present it. What reality you are reflecting remains murky and mysterious. 

Your repeated insistence that your surmises are backed by fact, which you are unwilling or unable to verify, is getting the discussion nowhere.

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## Hellfire

Thermobaric said:


> They have planned and conspire but Israel and eventually Indian backed off when *Dr. Munir Khan invited Indian counterpart and told / warns about the similar counter plans of Pakistan against the Indian installations.*



How nice it is to simplify things to a narrative to suit you, isn't it? I hope you do have the basic faculties to be able to appreciate that the Pakistani nuclear program started in 70s and Indian program was two and a half decades older? 

Leaving that aside, you would do well to go through Janne Nolan's work on this particular aspect to get a pretty accurate account of the politics and the reasons for the agreement.


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## Hellfire

Thermobaric said:


> No all the pagans aka Kafirs who wages war against Islam and Muslims.
> Indian claimed it and now get ready to taste the real one.



I, you can assume, have read the holy Quran too, hence, I am surprised when such people spread lies. And sorry, there is no line in Koran which says that you have to kill anyone except in self defence. You are supposed to only try your best to be a good human being and show others the right path and try and get them onto the right path.

Well, again, whatever suits the member who I have quoted. Now wonder why there is an immense backlash against the religion world over? Because a perfectly fine religious belief system is perverted by such ill thought out and loose statements.

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## war&peace

A.P. Richelieu said:


> And since You replied, I guess You agree...
> You know that every point in my posting is true, but that does not fit Your agenda.


All of your post are filled with lies and BS....not a single bit of truth is there....can you back up your claims with any credible sources? I'm pretty sure you can't do anything else than lying.

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## Hellfire

Thermobaric said:


> Cry me a river history proves that *you people have no balls to attack Pakistan,* few days back India claims surgical strikes even Indian DGMO claims to have video proof



Personal attacks eh? You don't need testicles to attack. You need them to procreate, have the hormones to maintain your secondary sexual characteristics. But then, if you would be knowing that, you would be answering specifically and not indulging in such fatuity!




Thermobaric said:


> but now you people are saying even to Indians don't ask for video proofs* since you people don't have video proof of wedding night of your parents*



Anything from painful personal experience bothering you here? My sympathies.



Thermobaric said:


> You have comprehension problem? read it once more I said if they wage war against Islam and Muslims then kill all able men of Pagan aka Hindu / Kafirs till they repent and sort apology.




Are you a kid? Were you quoted in the first place? Track back slowly and check. You will be surprised you were not quoted. 

Cheers


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## Psychic

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
> A vote where Great Britain abstained.
> All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
> Thus You can say that Israel is the only country that has existed in the area
> which is based on International Law.
> 
> The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
> and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.
> Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,
> and the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
> The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.
> 
> Get your history right...


When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.



A.P. Richelieu said:


> I got news for You:
> The US is attacking targets within Pakistan quite frequently.
> Eagerly awaiting the response...


US =/ India =/ Israel. Get your calculations right.

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## Finer

Starlord said:


> Jinnah Called Arabs Brothers but he does not said Jews as Enemies .. and wait , do i have to remind you what our Arab Brothers did to us ?



The actions of Arab brothers is well-known, that being said if it wasn't for their funding, there would be no Nuclear program nor Pakistan army either. 

Jinnah statement already made it intention clear to Israel so diplomatic relationship between Pakistan and Israel was never on the board to begin with.


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## SQ8

*Anyone found disrespecting our professionals will be given a solid boot, regardless of nationality.
*
*If you have disagreements with a rating. GHQ ONLY!!*

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## MastanKhan

A.P. Richelieu said:


> I got news for You:
> The US is attacking targets within Pakistan quite frequently.
> Eagerly awaiting the response...




Cardinal,

One day---if the U S chooses to attack targets in sweden---the swedes would not be able to do diddley sh-it about it either.

And just because you maybe white and christian would not make any difference---the american hate is fast and furious---the french are a good example of it---even though they have not been physically attacked---.

Just say NO to what U S wants---and you will see what comes up next.

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## A.P. Richelieu

war&peace said:


> All of your post are filled with lies and BS....not a single bit of truth is there....can you back up your claims with any credible sources? I'm pretty sure you can't do anything else than lying.



#1 The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
A vote where Great Britain abstained.

UN Resolution 181
The 33 countries that cast the “Yes” vote were: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussia, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, Union of South Africa, USSR, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela. (Among other countries, the list includes the US, the three British Dominions, all the European countries except for Greece and the UK, but including all the Soviet-block countries.)

The 13 countries that voted “No” were: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

The ten countries that abstained are: Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.


# All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
# Abraham - conquest - given by God
# Joshua - conquest - given by God
# Egypt - conquest
# Babylonians - conquest
# Romans - conquest
# Arabs - conquest
# Crusaders - conquest
# Arabs - conquest
# Ottomans - conquest
# Napoleon - conquest
# Great Britain - conquest/Mandate: League of Nations
# Israel: UN Resolution 181

Please state any disagreement or addition to this list, and I will focus getting sources for this.
#2 The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.

https://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Treaty_of_Lausanne

#3 Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,

In 1920, the British Government's _Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine_ stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.[33]"

#4 the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
From BBC program, "The Ottoman Palestine"

#5 The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.

The 1939 white paper mentioned in:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mandate.html


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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Cardinal,
> 
> One day---if the U S chooses to attack targets in sweden---the swedes would not be able to do diddley sh-it about it either.
> 
> And just because you maybe white and christian would not make any difference---the american hate is fast and furious---the french are a good example of it---even though they have not been physically attacked---.
> 
> Just say NO to what U S wants---and you will see what comes up next.



Spare the vikings of a thousand years ago, Swedes are pretty cowards and insecure people.... They did not participate in any of the world wars due to the fear of being wiped out in the war.... they are like scared kids...totally insecure and now losing their industry and prestige to Chinese....SAAB has gone bankrupt......Volvo is owned by China....Ericsson is owned by China... Right now they are scared from Russia and considering becoming part of the NATO to get some protection....and I really don't think this small nation will be more than a morsel for USA or Russia for that matter.

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## Tipu7

Starlord said:


> You never Heard that " Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend " ? are we not taught to hate , kill and destroy the Zionist/Israel State ? what do you expect them to do ? send you some Fresh Candies ? Our pilots actively involved in Wars against Israel that is why they see you as Threat and try to contain you with Help of our Eternal Enemy India. have you ever try to create Diplomatic ties with them ? so many of your Arab Brothers are Enjoying the Friendly Relation with Israel yet we " Pakistani " are just following the KSA lead like a Good sheep .. or we are too afraid for the Mullah Reactions that they will destroy half of Pakistan by Shouting Allah Ho akber and Death to the Jews !!
> 
> They plan but did not Attack and that is what matters , and if we are looking just planning as Attack than why are we still in US feet ? they plan to send us back to the stone age ? Russians help India and break half of our country , UK's Mi6 is actively Involved in Sponsoring Anti Pakistan Elements , and lets not mention what our Arab brothers have done to us in the name of Sectarian War , and the Price we pay , everyday in the streets of Pakistan ...
> 
> Let me Clear this for you ,and other who must be getting ready to jump on me over this , I am in Favor of Pakistan and Israel Diplomatic Relations, but i Disagree with their way to tackle the Palestine Matter .. so my problem is with their State Policy not with the State, just you have the right to Exist, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah aka Quaid-e-Azam snatch a piece of Land right under the nose of Indian Hindu's and Britishers , Israel get their ... they fought and won , It is as simple as that .. you and i we both know that in future if Muslims in ME become Powerful enough the first thing they will do is wipe Israel out from the face of the earth ..
> 
> For the sake of Peace in Region i would be happy for Pakistani Establishment to sit with Israeli counter parts and set terms for Financial , Trading , Cultural Exchange , Defense etc ..
> 
> No country is Sane , we all have a dark past and a bloody history full of wars , Operations , Misadventures etc .. but in the end What matters is " They did not Attack Pakistan and we did not Attack them " .
> 
> P.S for some Emotional Posters , what i wrote is my Personal Opinion and you have all the right to agree or Disagree but in a Civilized manner .
> 
> Regards .



He said that back in 1948 when no NON SENSE you mentioned above was taking place.
Have some study of history about collisions course of Pakistan and Israel which start even before birth of both countries.

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## A.P. Richelieu

war&peace said:


> Spare the vikings of a thousand years ago, Swedes are pretty cowards and insecure people.... They did not participate in any of the world wars due to the fear of being wiped out in the war.... they are like scared kids...totally insecure and now losing their industry and prestige to Chinese....SAAB has gone bankrupt......Volvo is owned by China....Ericsson is owned by China... Right now they are scared from Russia and considering becoming part of the NATO to get some protection....and I really don't think this small nation will be more than a morsel for USA or Russia for that matter.



Only an idiot wants their country to participate in a world war.
We were lucky to not participate, a lot of other countries with the same desire was not.

SAAB is happily alive, doing their core business which is aircraft & defense.
SAAB = Svenska Aeroplan AB...
Volvo, like many other car companies was too small to survive alone.
Volvo trucks doing fine, and sorry, Ericsson still Swedish.
Meanwhile, Sweden is doing fine in the IT industry, Electronic Gaming and Music which
makes Sweden a much better country to live in than Your native country, where You prefer not to live.

Now when your lack of knowledge was exposed publicly, you try do a personal attack.
So back to the main discussion.
Now when I have shown sources, are You going to cowardly avoid continuing the discussion?



MastanKhan said:


> Cardinal,
> 
> One day---if the U S chooses to attack targets in sweden---the swedes would not be able to do diddley sh-it about it either.
> 
> And just because you maybe white and christian would not make any difference---the american hate is fast and furious---the french are a good example of it---even though they have not been physically attacked---.
> 
> Just say NO to what U S wants---and you will see what comes up next.



We have proven that we can make the US respect our borders (SR-71).
Anyway, if the US declares war on Sweden we will be safe, since they are likely to attack Switzerland...

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## Hindustani78

Talha Baloch said:


> the Attack cancelled because *ISI *was not sleeping and *PAF* is fully ready to respond both isreal and india.



Indian establishment was aware of the out come which would have resulted in full scale war. 

Even ex PM Atal Ji was against terming Palestinian freedom struggle to terrorism during the visit of ex Pm Sharon.



A.P. Richelieu said:


> #1 The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
> A vote where Great Britain abstained.
> 
> UN Resolution 181
> The 33 countries that cast the “Yes” vote were: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussia, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, Union of South Africa, USSR, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela. (Among other countries, the list includes the US, the three British Dominions, all the European countries except for Greece and the UK, but including all the Soviet-block countries.)
> 
> The 13 countries that voted “No” were: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
> 
> The ten countries that abstained are: Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.
> 
> 
> # All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
> # Abraham - conquest - given by God
> # Joshua - conquest - given by God
> # Egypt - conquest
> # Babylonians - conquest
> # Romans - conquest
> # Arabs - conquest
> # Crusaders - conquest
> # Arabs - conquest
> # Ottomans - conquest
> # Napoleon - conquest
> # Great Britain - conquest/Mandate: League of Nations
> # Israel: UN Resolution 181
> 
> Please state any disagreement or addition to this list, and I will focus getting sources for this.
> #2 The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
> and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.
> 
> https://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Treaty_of_Lausanne
> 
> #3 Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,
> 
> In 1920, the British Government's _Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine_ stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:
> 
> "There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.[33]"
> 
> #4 the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
> From BBC program, "The Ottoman Palestine"
> 
> #5 The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.
> 
> The 1939 white paper mentioned in:
> 
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mandate.html



By the way ISA Ibne Maryam is native Middle Eastern and have rejected the Roman occupation of Palestine.







Psychic said:


> When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
> 
> 
> US =/ India =/ Israel. Get your calculations right.



During the visit of Indian President Shri Pranab Kumar Mukherjee , State of Israel has confisicated computers which were going to be give to Palestinian university as gift. 




President Pranab Mukherjee during conferment of honorary doctorate by the Prime Minister of Palestine at Al-Quds University, Abu Dees, in Palestine. (PTI)

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## Goenitz

@Solomon2 
have u read this especially posts by starlord and war&peaace


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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

hellfire said:


> So, by the above, am I to assume that it is the duty of every Muslim to kill a Jew?





It is these particular Jews, not all Jews, whom the believers will fight and will be aided with miracles from Allah. The Quran is careful to distinguish between righteous and sinful Jews.

Allah said:

لَيْسُوا سَوَاءً مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ أُمَّةٌ قَائِمَةٌ يَتْلُونَ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ آنَاءَ اللَّيْلِ وَهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْخَيْرَاتِ وَأُولَٰئِكَ مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ وَمَا يَفْعَلُوا مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَلَن يُكْفَرُوهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالْمُتَّقِينَ

*They are not all the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing, reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating in prayer. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds; and those are among the righteous. Whatever good they do – never will it be removed from them; and Allah knows the righteous.*

Surah Ali Imran 3:113-115

In another verse, Allah praises the Jews who uphold the teachings of Moses:

وَمِن قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰ أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

*Among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice.*

Surah Al-A’raf 7:159

Muslims have been encouraged to behave well with these peaceful Jews, and indeed all people of different religions who seek peace.

Allah said:

لَّا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ إِنَّمَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ قَاتَلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَأَخْرَجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ وَظَاهَرُوا عَلَىٰ إِخْرَاجِكُمْ أَن تَوَلَّوْهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ

*Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion – He forbids that you make allies of them; and whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.*

Surah Al-Mumtahina 60:8-9

http://abuaminaelias.com/hadith-of-the-gharqad-tree-is-it-a-good-deed-to-kill-jews-in-islam/

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Hellfire

@GDP Adil Khan Niazi 

Maybe you would like to re-visit your post? Your post certainly smacks of promoting hatred, would you not agree? I can only comment knowing about Islam a bit and understanding it's teachings, hence my point.


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## GDP Adil Khan Niazi

hellfire said:


> @GDP Adil Khan Niazi
> 
> Maybe you would like to re-visit your post? Your post certainly smacks of promoting hatred, would you not agree? I can only comment knowing about Islam a bit and understanding it's teachings, hence my point.



I'm not promoting hate , it is just a message for us that jews can never be our friend specially the friends of Muslims.


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## Hindustani78

GDP Adil Khan Niazi said:


> It is these particular Jews, not all Jews, whom the believers will fight and will be aided with miracles from Allah. The Quran is careful to distinguish between righteous and sinful Jews.
> 
> Allah said:
> 
> لَيْسُوا سَوَاءً مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ أُمَّةٌ قَائِمَةٌ يَتْلُونَ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ آنَاءَ اللَّيْلِ وَهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْخَيْرَاتِ وَأُولَٰئِكَ مِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ وَمَا يَفْعَلُوا مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَلَن يُكْفَرُوهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالْمُتَّقِينَ
> 
> *They are not all the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing, reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating in prayer. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds; and those are among the righteous. Whatever good they do – never will it be removed from them; and Allah knows the righteous.*
> 
> Surah Ali Imran 3:113-115
> 
> In another verse, Allah praises the Jews who uphold the teachings of Moses:
> 
> وَمِن قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰ أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ
> 
> *Among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice.*
> 
> Surah Al-A’raf 7:159
> 
> Muslims have been encouraged to behave well with these peaceful Jews, and indeed all people of different religions who seek peace.
> 
> Allah said:
> 
> لَّا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ إِنَّمَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ قَاتَلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَأَخْرَجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ وَظَاهَرُوا عَلَىٰ إِخْرَاجِكُمْ أَن تَوَلَّوْهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ
> 
> *Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion – He forbids that you make allies of them; and whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.*
> 
> Surah Al-Mumtahina 60:8-9
> 
> http://abuaminaelias.com/hadith-of-the-gharqad-tree-is-it-a-good-deed-to-kill-jews-in-islam/



Religious holy books explain us not only historical realities but even what can/will happen in future and how the lives of million of human beings can be saved .

Racism has been always the real reason for the wars .


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## war&peace

Hindustani78 said:


> Indian establishment was aware of the out come which would have resulted in full scale war.
> 
> Even ex PM Atal Ji was against terming Palestinian freedom struggle to terrorism during the visit of ex Pm Sharon.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way ISA Ibne Maryam is native Middle Eastern and have rejected the Roman occupation of Palestine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During the visit of Indian President Shri Pranab Kumar Mukherjee , State of Israel has confisicated computers which were going to be give to Palestinian university as gift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> President Pranab Mukherjee during conferment of honorary doctorate by the Prime Minister of Palestine at Al-Quds University, Abu Dees, in Palestine. (PTI)


India used to have different stance back then, it used to be independent and non-aligned, but now it supports Israel.


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## tore

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
> A vote where Great Britain abstained.
> All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
> Thus You can say that Israel is the only country that has existed in the area
> which is based on International Law.
> 
> The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
> and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.
> Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,
> and the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
> The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.
> 
> Get your history right...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they came to work as usual, 11:15 in the morning, and read their CIA email right after lunch 14:45.
> Or do you have a different explanation?


--------------------------------------

UN is based on injustice where 5 countries hold the veto power of attorney, and can decide or ignore what the rest of world thinks or votes, so decisions taken in the UN based on modern imperial, UN is nonsense.

Thats the history....


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## Hindustani78

war&peace said:


> India used to have different stance back then, it used to be independent and non-aligned, but now it supports Israel.



India's official line is establishment of Independent Palestine State with Al Quds as thier capital .


Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (R) receives a statue of Mahatma Gandhi at Rajghat






tore said:


> --------------------------------------
> 
> UN is based on injustice where 5 countries hold the veto power of attorney, and can decide or ignore what the rest of world thinks or votes, so decisions taken in the UN based on imperial style is just nonsense.
> 
> Thats the history....



Today statement has been issued by United States of America .

http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...ia-china-exercise-veto-power-in-unsc-3069854/

“We have been deeply concerned by the way Russia has used its veto power on the UN Security Council to prevent as much action from the UN as we would like to see,” White House Press Secretary Josh earnest said.

“I know there has been a broader and, in some ways, more esoteric discussion about proposed reforms of the UN Security Council and the way that it works.* I know there have been some proposals to enlarge it. Our friends in India are certainly interested in benefitting from reforms like that,”* Earnest told reporters at his daily news conference yesterday.

*“The United States has been disappointed at the way in which Russia and to a certain extent China have wielded their veto authority on the UN Security Council to blunt international efforts to limit the violence inside of Syria,” *the White House spokesman said.

“We have been disappointed that they have used that veto to protect (Syrian President Bashar al) Assad. There have also been movements at the United Nations Security Council to raise concerns about the conduct of individuals in that conflict and to ensure that they are met with some accountability. Those accountability measures have been blocked by the Russians,” Earnest said.

The situation in Ukraine is the best example where the US has been able to work effectively with its European allies to impose tough sanctions against Russia, Earnest said.


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## A.P. Richelieu

tore said:


> --------------------------------------
> 
> UN is based on injustice where 5 countries hold the veto power of attorney, and can decide or ignore what the rest of world thinks or votes, so decisions taken in the UN based on imperial style is just nonsense.
> 
> Thats the history....



Pity that the UN resolution 181 was taken by the General Assembly where noone has a veto.
That somewhat undermines your argument.
The UNSC probably only has jurisdiction over member states.
Anyone which is a member has however accepted the veto power of the permanent members.
Veto cannot create a resolution. For that you only need a majority in the UNSC.


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## tore

Isnt it strange that worlds strongest democracies hold veto power in UN, while all other countries many among them ruled by dictators dont have Veto power i UN.

Its strange you a swede is in defence of this practice og system..... people from free country like Sweden should have raised their voice to stop this nonsense & instustice in name of UN, where one country can veto the decision of the rest of the world, funny isnt it. Modern imperlialism.

Do you really belive the result would have been the same if China & 4 muslim countries with veto power had decided the faith of palestinians. 

Get yours fact right.


QUOTE="A.P. Richelieu, post: 8787680, member: 152476"]Pity that the UN resolution 181 was taken by the General Assembly where noone has a veto.
That somewhat undermines your argument.
The UNSC probably only has jurisdiction over member states.
Anyone which is a member has however accepted the veto power of the permanent members.
Veto cannot create a resolution. For that you only need a majority in the UNSC.[/QUOTE]


----------



## YeBeWarned

Fallen King said:


> The actions of Arab brothers is well-known, that being said if it wasn't for their funding, there would be no Nuclear program nor Pakistan army either.
> 
> Jinnah statement already made it intention clear to Israel so diplomatic relationship between Pakistan and Israel was never on the board to begin with.



Lets not mentioned what they did or did not for us .. these Arabs were not capable of fighting some rug tags militia when the Seige the Kaaba , they need us more than we need them ... and Pakistan is not Funding any Sectarian Violence in their Countries.



Tipu7 said:


> He said that back in 1948 when no NON SENSE you mentioned above was taking place.
> Have some study of history about collisions course of Pakistan and Israel which start even before birth of both countries.
> 
> View attachment 341777



You did not get my point do you ? and actually what i said in my Post you are living Prove of this .. they want to Destroy you because they see you as Threat , and the feeling in mutual .. but tell me , did Israel volunteered in any war you fought with India ? you have to be little generous here that those Evil Jews did not step up with India in 65, 71 and 99 or else you wont even have a Country you call home .. those statements are just Statement unless they did something .. and i don't want to prove this to you that if i read something on this or not .. i clearly say that its my opinion just like you have your own , and you are entitled to it ..

Regards


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## Tipu7

Starlord said:


> You did not get my point do you ? and actually what i said in my Post you are living Prove of this .. they want to Destroy you because they see you as Threat , and the feeling in mutual .. but tell me , did Israel volunteered in any war you fought with India ? you have to be little generous here that those Evil Jews did not step up with India in 65, 71 and 99 or else you wont even have a Country you call home .. those statements are just Statement unless they did something .. and i don't want to prove this to you that if i read something on this or not .. i clearly say that its my opinion just like you have your own , and you are entitled to it ..



Statement form policy. policy forms doctrine. doctrine forms actions. If you believe that Israel is anti Pakistan only bcoz Pakistan supported Arabs in their wars against Israel then I am extremely sorry to say you neither have enough knowledge of history nor you should be given a right to propagate your ''free opinion''
Nations don't run like you think. 

Here, a History lesson for you.

*The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan.Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan.It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.*_
_
-David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister. His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967.

Qaid e Azam Stance toward Palestine issue.

*"May I point out to Great Britain that this question of Palestine, if not fairly and squarely met, boldly and courageously decided, is going to be the turning point in the history of the British Empire. I am sure I am speaking not only of the Mussalmans of India but of the world, and all sections of right thinking and fair-minded people will agree when I say that Great Britain will be digging its grave if she fails to honour her original proclamation, promises and intentions-pre-war." *

MA Jinnah’s Presidential Address at the Lucknow Session of the All-India Muslim League (15 to 18 October, 1937).

*"The way in which the British Government have hitherto dealt with the Arabs is the greatest blot on their national honour."*

M A Jinnah on British Government’s Policy (New Times, November 27, 1938).

*"But no nation, no people who are worth living as a nation, can achieve anything great without making great sacrifices, such as the Arabs of Palestine are making. All our sympathies are with those valiant martyrs who are fighting the battle of freedom against usurpers."* 

MA Jinnah’s Presidential Address at the Annual Session
of the All India Muslim League held at Patna (26-29 December, 1938).

*"If President Roosevelt, under the pressure of the powerful world Jewry, commits the blunder of forcing the British Government to do injustice to the Arabs in Palestine, it will set the whole Muslim world ablaze from one end to another. Grave wrongs had already been done to the Arabs. If the Jewish immigration is allowed to continue, I have no doubt that not only the Muslim League will revolt but the whole Muslim world will revolt."*

Speech of M A Jinnah at Strachey Hall Aligarh (10 March, 1944).

*"We cannot remain silent and we must assure the Arabs that Indian Muslims will stand by them."*

M A Jinnah’s Speech at the Council of the All-India Muslim League (10 April, 1946).


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

tore said:


> Isnt it strange that worlds strongest democracies hold veto power in UN, while all other countries many among them ruled by dictators dont have Veto power i UN.
> 
> Its strange you a swede is in defence of this practice og system..... people from free country like Sweden should have raised their voice to stop this nonsense & instustice in name of UN, where one country can veto the decision of the rest of the world, funny isnt it. Modern imperlialism.
> 
> Do you really belive the result would have been the same if China & 4 muslim countries with veto power had decided the faith of palestinians.
> 
> Get yours fact right.


Interesting, you call Russia and China democracies...

I do not defend it, but the world is somewhat better off with the UN, than without.
I definitely prefer that democracies hold veto powers over dictators.

I repeat, the UN resolution 181 was taken by the General Assemly where each country has a vote
and noone has a veto, so discussing veto / no veto in the UNSC is pointless.

I repeat the original statement that resolution 181 makes the creation of Israel
more legal than any other state existing in the area previously.


----------



## YeBeWarned

Tipu7 said:


> Statement form policy. policy forms doctrine. doctrine forms actions. If you believe that Israel is anti Pakistan only bcoz Pakistan supported Arabs in their wars against Israel then I am extremely sorry to say you neither have enough knowledge of history nor you should be given a right to propagate your ''free opinion''
> Nations don't run like you think.



where are actions i may ask you ? did they attack you ? launch any Air strikes i don't know about ? Please i am all ears to it .. and its not your decision to make that either i should be allowed to post my PERSONAL OPINION or not .. but that shows one thing that you have no idea what a Open Forum or Open Discussion means .. i should suggest you to go and learn basics first before quoting me ..

No where in those Statements Quaid-e-Azam said that we should not Established any Diplomatic relations with Israel ? unless i miss something ? and please Enlighten me that when you need Spare part for F-16s you go Israel and on back you curse them for what ? just for some Statements ? do i have to tell you about that almost every Masjid in my Area has Israel and US flag painted on the door steps ? or should i post some Statements from Pakistani Statements against the Jews ? 

Mr Jinnah talk about Standing by with Arabs , and what Arabs did with Pakistan ? have you ever been to UAE , KSA or any other GCC country ? you are a third grade citizen there , they consider you like Insects and Ajams .. they will only be nice to you when they need you ... should i mentioned what UAE and their ministers said about Pakistan when we refused to Enter Yemen War ? 
and talking about Mr.Jinnah like you or your State follow every single " Advice " given by the Great leader ? just like people use Quran and Hadith for their own Good you are doing the same thing with Mr . Jinnah Statements ..

-----and please You don't have to Quote me Again ------ as you don't like my Freedom to Express my Opinion. have a Great day .

Regards


----------



## Tipu7

Starlord said:


> where are actions i may ask you ? did they attack you ? launch any Air strikes i don't know about ? Please i am all ears to it .. and its not your decision to make that either i should be allowed to post my PERSONAL OPINION or not .. but that shows one thing that you have no idea what a Open Forum or Open Discussion means .. i should suggest you to go and learn basics first before quoting me ..
> 
> No where in those Statements Quaid-e-Azam said that we should not Established any Diplomatic relations with Israel ? unless i miss something ? and please Enlighten me that when you need Spare part for F-16s you go Israel and on back you curse them for what ? just for some Statements ? do i have to tell you about that almost every Masjid in my Area has Israel and US flag painted on the door steps ? or should i post some Statements from Pakistani Statements against the Jews ?
> 
> Mr Jinnah talk about Standing by with Arabs , and what Arabs did with Pakistan ? have you ever been to UAE , KSA or any other GCC country ? you are a third grade citizen there , they consider you like Insects and Ajams .. they will only be nice to you when they need you ... should i mentioned what UAE and their ministers said about Pakistan when we refused to Enter Yemen War ?
> and talking about Mr.Jinnah like you or your State follow every single " Advice " given by the Great leader ? just like people use Quran and Hadith for their own Good you are doing the same thing with Mr . Jinnah Statements ..
> 
> -----and please You don't have to Quote me Again ------ as you don't like my Freedom to Express my Opinion. have a Great day .
> 
> Regards



Read more stuff fella, increase your knowledge.
There is ZERO worth answering portion in your comment. I personally enjoyed ''F16 spare parts'' portion. how immature


----------



## tore

No, nobody should have veto, no country is superior to other countries, all should have equal right, only then you can say that UN have voted for this & that.

By issuing an UN resolution no 182, can world just drive out Swedes from Sweden, you are talking nonsense.

Hello, Before that country was created , it was a country, Palestine and millions of peoples lived there and that place was there home for centuries. Only after this UN resolution millions of people lost their country and you say creation of that country is more legal then other, no that is not.

To drive out Palestinians from their country alot of killing & brutalities happened, hundreds of thousands of people lost their country & their life, just for the sake of one UN resolution no 182, permitting people from Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Poland to settle in

Why not send million of people from Zimbawe to Sweden , pass a UN resolution and drive out swedes from Sweden and there you have the legality you refers to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A.P. Richelieu said:


> Interesting, you call Russia and China democracies...
> 
> I do not defend it, but the world is somewhat better off with the UN, than without.
> I definitely prefer that democracies hold veto powers over dictators.
> 
> I repeat, the UN resolution 181 was taken by the General Assemly where each country has a vote
> and noone has a veto, so discussing veto / no veto in the UNSC is pointless.
> 
> I repeat the original statement that resolution 181 makes the creation of Israel
> more legal than any other state existing in the area previously.


----------



## Green Ranger

India along with its stooges has always planned such activities they also plan such activities even these days , although they dont succeed in doing it on large scale but they do succeed on lower stage like hiring mercenaries and fake mullahs to carry out terrorist activities , and most of the time when they plan large scale stuff , shit like Khulbashan Vadav type happens means they get busted


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## Mujahid Memon

Darpokes can't do nothing


----------



## Finer

Starlord said:


> Lets not mentioned what they did or did not for us .. these Arabs were not capable of fighting some rug tags militia when the Seige the Kaaba , they need us more than we need them ... and Pakistan is not Funding any Sectarian Violence in their Countries.



At the end, their funding ended up making Pakistan the most strongest and one of the largest military Nuclear nation in the world. That is priceless considering the state of Middle East while situated next to India taking IOK into account.

If it weren't for their funding, Pakistan as nation would have short-lived. You and I wouldn't be having debate about this.

Now as Pakistan one of the most qualified military nation is capable of defending itself against all the odds including the tackling sectarian violence and eradication terrorism big time.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MastanKhan

A.P. Richelieu said:


> We have proven that we can make the US respect our borders (SR-71).
> Anyway, if the US declares war on Sweden we will be safe, since they are likely to attack Switzerland...



Hi,

If you believe so.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## A.P. Richelieu

tore said:


> No, nobody should have veto, no country is superior to other countries, all should have equal right, only then you can say that UN have voted for this & that.
> 
> By issuing an UN resolution no 182, can world just drive out Swedes from Sweden, you are talking nonsense.
> 
> Hello, Before that country was created , it was a country, Palestine and millions of peoples lived there and that place was there home for centuries. Only after this UN resolution millions of people lost their country and you say creation of that country is more legal then other, no that is not.
> 
> To drive out Palestinians from their country alot of killing & brutalities happened, hundreds of thousands of people lost their country & their life, just for the sake of one UN resolution no 182, permitting people from Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Poland to settle in
> 
> Why not send million of people from Zimbawe to Sweden , pass a UN resolution and drive out swedes from Sweden and there you have the legality you refers to.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You seem to have a comprehension problem.
Noone has a veto in the General Assembly.
You are now ignored...


----------



## Indus Falcon

Fallen King said:


> At the end, their funding ended up making Pakistan the most strongest and one of the largest military Nuclear nation in the world. That is priceless considering the state of Middle East while situated next to India taking IOK into account.
> 
> If it weren't for their funding, Pakistan as nation would have short-lived. You and I wouldn't be having debate about this.
> 
> Now as Pakistan one of the most qualified military nation is capable of defending itself against all the odds including the tackling sectarian violence and eradication terrorism big time.



Not Fallen, still King

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Muhammed45

Pakistan needs a good piece of SAMs immediately.

Buy HQ-9 medium-long range and HQ-16 short-range due to good relations with China. As soon as possible! 

Also this can evaluate the level of China's friendship


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## nomi007

why they are not attacking
karo na agr apne baap ki olaad ho


----------



## Reichsmarschall

Tipu7 said:


> Read more stuff fella, increase your knowledge.
> There is ZERO worth answering portion in your comment. I personally enjoyed ''F16 spare parts'' portion. how immature


A matter of weeks after Israel’s conquest of the West Bank, Al Quds (Jerusalem), Gaza, and Syria’s Golan Heights – Ben-Gurion reportedly made Zionism’s staunch opposition to Pakistan crystal-clear:

The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.

This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan.

Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan.

It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.

Relatively recent comments from Israel’s repugnant, racist Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman corroborate this position, revealing that this Zionist strategy exists as a priority in the modern day. In a 2009 interview with a Russian daily newspaper, Soviet-born Lieberman (born Evet Lvovich Liberman) revealed(6) that he saw Pakistan as Israel’s biggest threat, as opposed to Iran which is commonly painted as Israel’s arch nemesis:

“Pakistan is nuclear and unstable and Afghanistan is faced with a potential Taliban takeover, and the combination forms a contiguous area of radicalism ruled in the spirit of Osama bin Laden,”

In the same interview Lieberman professed, “Believe me, America accepts all our decisions”, an arrogant but nevertheless valid analysis.

On September 11, 2008, former chief AIPAC lobbyist Douglas M. Bloomfield wrote a panicked tirade against Pakistan,(7) insisting that the incoming U.S. President must focus on the country. Bloomfield’s article repeats all of the standard Zionist rhetoric, including the complaint that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are at risk of ‘falling into the wrong hands’.

Briefly returning to the ‘Atlantic’ map, you will notice that Afghanistan has been disembowelled; the ethnic states of Baluchistan and Pashtunistan have been created, and the northern region of Afghanistan has been absorbed into ‘Persia’. As a result of the secession of Baluchistan and Pashtunistan (both of which straddle the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, while Baluch territory extends into Iran too), significant chunks of Pakistan have been lost. This is part of a long-standing Zionist policy to cripple Pakistan as a nation.

Pakistan is a proud Muslim nation which not only has an ideological opposition to Zionism and Western colonialism, but possesses nuclear weapons. The nuclear deterrent, partnered with a cohesive and loyal army and air force presents a significant roadblock to Zionist and Indian aspirations of hegemony.

Shahid Siddiqi of Dawn.com muses(8) that,

“Due to its defiance of Indian diktat, Pakistan is for India an obstruction in its quest for domination of South Asia and the Indian Ocean region. Israel`s apprehension of Pakistan’s military prowess is rooted in the strength Pakistan indirectly provides to Arab states with whom Israel has remained in a state of conflict. Conscious that several Arab states look up to Pakistan for military support in the event of threat to their security from Israel, it is unsettling for Israel to see a nuclear armed Pakistan.

Again, this analysis gives a nod to David Ben-Gurion’s position on Pakistan – echoed by Israel’s Foreign Minister over forty years later. Israel’s deep military-intelligence collaboration with India(9) is yet another indication of this strategy manifesting.

This strategy was transposed into an overt act of war when in 1984, Israel attempted to destroy Pakistan’s Kahuta nuclear reactor. After becoming aware of the plot, Pakistan spurned the attack by pre-emptively scrambling jets to protect the facility. To this day the strategy continues by overt and covert means.

In the midst of the Zionist ‘War on Terror’ in June 2004, George W. Bush began drone attacks on Pakistan. The deadly attacks, ostensibly launched against ‘Al Qaeda’ and Taliban ‘terrorists’ and ‘insurgents’, accelerated in regularity and intensity from 2004 to 2011 – killing thousands of innocent Pakistanis. The real underlying motive for these attacks is to foment unrest in these regions, with a view to provoking and cultivating militant secessionist groups. The aim is to turn these groups against the collaborationist Pakistani government (which is impotent in the face of naked aggression on the part of its American ‘ally’).

The balkanisation of Pakistan and seizure of its nuclear weapons are the ultimate aspirations of Israel as well as the United States, which aims to preserve its declining superpower status in the face of a growing China. A prominent meme in the Zionist media is the notion that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are unsafe and at risk of ‘falling into the wrong hands’. This is the very justification that will eventually be used to launch an all-out invasion of Pakistan whereby Western powers will seize its nuclear weapons. The drone strikes, NATO provocations, and CIA-Mossad-RAW black ops serve to fan the flames of unrest, creating the necessary climate for military action and eventual dismemberment of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran. The close relationship between China and Pakistan is a significant factor in the drive to break up Pakistan. China’s port at Gwadar is known as one of her ‘String of Pearls’, being of huge strategic interest and allowing for an energy corridor through Pakistan.

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## UQAAB

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The legal basis for Israel is a vote in the United Nations general assembly.
> A vote where Great Britain abstained.
> All previous masters of the territory got mastership through conquest.
> Thus You can say that Israel is the only country that has existed in the area
> which is based on International Law.
> 
> The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to the territory,
> and the League of Nations gave Great Britain a mandate to prepare the territories for independence.
> Jew Immigration started already when the Ottomans ruled over the territories,
> and the Arabs sent missions to complain at the court, and their complaints were rejected.
> The only change the British did was to adopt laws intended to stop immigration.
> 
> Get your history right...


@A.P. Richelieu So you are admitting it by yourself? "Those Jews were immigrants or were refugees who came to Palestine and later get an apartheid state with the help of foreign influence"?
@war&peace was saying the same, That situation was totally different from Pakistan where natives stood for separate land. 

And
1>You're talking about UN-Resolution 181 but forget to mention about natives and their land (Palestine) in UN-Resolution 181.

2>Check the map and tell me who is grabbing more and more land of whom according to 181? Palestine or Apartheid state.

3>And how many western countries who gave the proposals of a "immigrants state" in Palestine(UN-Resolution 181) and get that "Apartheid state" but failed to recognize Palestine and natives right, but that was also in that Resolution. And still today many western countries don't recognize Palestine?
You can't say justice on stolen land.

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## A.P. Richelieu

UQAAB said:


> @A.P. Richelieu So you are admitting it by yourself? "Those Jews were immigrants or were refugees who came to Palestine and later get an apartheid state with the help of foreign influence"?
> @war&peace was saying the same, That situation was totally different from Pakistan where natives stood for separate land.
> 
> And
> 1>You're talking about UN-Resolution 181 but forget to mention about natives and their land (Palestine) in UN-Resolution 181.
> 
> 2>Check the map and tell me who is grabbing more and more land of whom according to 181? Palestine or Apartheid state.
> 
> 3>And how many western countries who gave the proposals of a "immigrants state" in Palestine(UN-Resolution 181) and get that "Apartheid state" but failed to recognize Palestine and natives right, but that was also in that Resolution. And still many western countries don't recognize Palestine?
> You can't say justice on stolen land.



The history is well known. Persecution motivated Jews to go to the centre of their religion.
Most did not break any law doing so, until the British started curbing immigration of Jews.
Large scale immigration of Arabs into the mandate was not curbed.
When a conflict occured, UN decided through resolution 181 to split the remaing part of the Mandate
(80% already split off into Jordania).
When the state of Israel was legally created, and "illegal immigrants" were accepted
into the society, making their precense legal.
All this is well known, so calling it "addmitting" is trying to force an open door.

The Palestinians were let down by their Arab Allies which invaded.
Jordania occupied much of the land intended to be the Arab part, until 1967.
Without an invasion, I am pretty sure there would be a Palestinian state soon after the State of Israel.

Every state in Europe is recognizing the right of Palestinians to have a state of their own.
The problem of recognizing them as a state, is that there are no defined borders
and they do not have full control of their territory.
These are normal conditions before recognition.

I think most countries recognizes the Palestinian government.


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## salarsikander

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The problem of recognizing them as a state, is that there are no defined borders


How ctheir can be when EU is funding the settlement projects ?

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## A.P. Richelieu

salarsikander said:


> How ctheir can be when EU is funding the settlement projects ?


How can there be, when those that should support the Palestinians 
focus on producing fake news and feeling good about themselves for doing so.


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## salarsikander

A.P. Richelieu said:


> How can there be, when those that should support the Palestinians
> focus on producing fake news and feeling good about themselves for doing so.


Certainly denying everything that is against ISrael is what a Zionist has to do fundamentally
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.745959

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## A.P. Richelieu

salarsikander said:


> Certainly denying everything that is against ISrael is what a Zionist has to do fundamentally
> http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.745959



You make the accusation, and You do not provide any sources.
Produce some to be taken seriously...


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## Banglar Bir

*The Hidden History of the Incredibly Evil Khazarian Mafia (Updated)*

By Preston James, Ph.D on March 8, 2015

The curtain is now being pulled back to fully expose the Khazarian Mafia and its evil plan to infiltrate, tyrannize the whole world and eradicate all Abrahamic Religions and allow only their Babylonian Talmudism also known as Luciferianism, Satanism or ancient Baal worship

*by Preston James and Mike Harris*







*Note:* The history of the Khazarians, specifically the Khazarian Mafia (KM), the World’s largest Organized Crime Syndicate that the Khazarian oligarchy morphed into by their deployment of Babylonian Money-Magick, has been nearly completely excised from the history books.

The present day KM knows that it cannot operate or exist without abject secrecy, and therefore has spent a lot of money having its history excised from the history books in order to prevent citizens of the World from learning about its “Evil beyond imagination”, that empowers this World’s largest Organized Crime Cabal.

The authors of this article have done their best to resurrect this lost, secret history of the Khazarians and their large International Organized Crime Syndicate, best referred to as the Khazarian Mafia (KM) and make this history available to the World via the Internet, which is the new Gutenberg Press.

It has been exceedingly difficult to reconstruct this hidden secret history of the KM, so please excuse any minor inaccuracies or errors which are unintentional and are due to the difficulty in digging out the true history of Khazaria and its mafia. We have done the best we can to reconstruct it.

It was Mike Harris that connected the dots and made the actual discovery of the presence of the Khazarian Mafia’s secret history and blood oath to take revenge on Russia for helping Americans win the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, and their blood oath of revenge against America and Americans for winning these wars and sustaining the Union.

At the Syrian Conference on Combating Terrorism and Religious Extremism December 1, 2014 — in his Keynote address, Veterans Today Senior Editor and Director Gordon Duff disclosed publicly for the first time ever that World Terrorism is actually due to a large International Organized Crime Syndicate associated with Israel. This disclosure sent shock-waves at the Conference and almost instantly around the world, as almost every world leader received reports of Gordon Duff’s historical disclosure that same day, some within minutes.

And the shock-waves from his historic speech in Damascus continue to reverberate around the world even to this very day. And now Gordon Duff has asked President Putin to release Russian Intel which will expose about 300 traitors in Congress for their serious serial felonies and statutory espionage on behalf of the Khazarian Mafia (KM) against America and many Middle East nations.

We now know that the Khazarian Mafia (KM) is waging a secret war against America and Americans by the use of False-flag Gladio-style terrorism, and via the illegal and Unconstitutional Federal Reserve System, the IRS, the FBI, FEMA, Homeland Security and the TSA. We know for certain that the KM was responsible for deploying an inside-job, Gladio-style False-flag attack on America on 9-11-01, as well as the Murrah Building Bombing on April 19, 1995.

*The Hidden History of the Incredibly Evil Khazarian Mafia*

*100-800 AD – an incredibly Evil Society Emerges in Khazaria:*

Khazarians develop into a nation ruled by an evil king, who had ancient Babylonian black arts, occult oligarchs serving as his court. During this time, Khazarians become known to surrounding countries as thieves, murderers, road bandits, and for assuming the identities of those travelers they murdered as a normal occupational practice and way of life.

*800 AD – The Ultimatum is delivered by Russia and other surrounding nations:*

The leaders of the surrounding nations, especially Russia, have had so many years of complaints by their citizens that, as a group, they deliver an ultimatum to the Khazarian king. They send a communique to the Khazarian king that he must choose one of the three Abrahamic religions for his people, and make it his official state religion and require all Khazarian citizens to practice it, and socialize all Khazarian children to practice that faith.

The Khazarian king was given a choice between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The Khazarian king chose Judaism, and promised to stay within the requirements laid out by the surrounding confederacy of nations led by the Russian czar. Despite his agreement and promise, the Khazarian king and his inner circle of oligarchs kept practicing ancient Babylonian black-magic, also known as Secret Satanism. This Secret Satanism involved occult ceremonies featuring child sacrifice, after “bleeding them out”, drinking their blood and eating their hearts.

The deep dark secret of the occult ceremonies was that they were all based on ancient Baal Worship, also known as worship of the Owl. In order to fool the confederacy of nations led by Russia that were watching Khazaria, the Khazarian king melded these Luciferian black-magick practices with Judaism and created a secret Satanic-hybrid religion, known as Babylonian Talmudism. This was made the national religion of Khazaria, and nurtured the same evil that Khazaria was known for before.

Sadly, the Khazarians continued their evil ways, robbing and murdering those from surrounding countries who traveled through Khazaria. Khazarian robbers often attempted to assume their identities after they murdered these visitors, and became masters of disguises and false identities — a practice they have continued even to this very day, along with their child-sacrifice occult ceremonies, which are actually ancient Baal Worship.

*1,200 AD – Russia and the surrounding nations have had enough and take action:*

About 1,200 AD, the Russians led a group of nations surrounding Khazaria and invaded it, in order to stop the Khazarian crimes against their people, which included kidnapping of their young children and infants for their blood sacrifice ceremonies to Baal. The Khazarian king and his inner court of criminals and murderers came to be known as the Khazarian Mafia (KM) by neighboring countries.

The Khazarian leaders had a well-developed spy network through which they obtained prior warning and escaped from Khazaria to European nations to the west, taking their vast fortune with them in gold and silver. They laid low and regrouped, while assuming new identities. In secret, they continued their Satanic child blood and sacrifice rituals, and trusted Baal to give them the whole world and all its riches, as they claimed he had promised them, as long as they kept bleeding out and sacrificing children and infants for him.

The Khazarian king and his court Mafia plotted eternal revenge against the Russians and the surrounding nations that invaded Khazaria and drove them from power.

*The Khazarian Mafia invades England after being expelled for hundreds of years:*

To accomplish their invasion, they hired Oliver Cromwell to murder King Charles 1, and make England safe for banking again. This began the English Civil Wars which raged for nearly a decade, resulting in regicide of the royal family and hundreds of the genuine English nobility. This is how the City of London was set up as the banking capital of Europe and launched the beginning of the British Empire.




From David Icke’s website www.davidicke.com. David Icke was the first ever to courageously expose the Rothschilds publicly in front of hundreds. This of course makes him an international hero and we need more with his kind of courage to break open the coverup hiding the Khazarian Mafia and bring an end to their worldwide illegitimate power.

*The Khazarian Mafia (KM) decides to infiltrate and hijack all World Banking using Babylonian Black-Magick, also known as Babylonian Money-Magick or the secret art of making money from nothing also using the power of pernicious usury to accumulate interest:*

The KM used their vast fortune to enter into a new system of banking, based on secret Babylonian black-magic money-magic that they claimed to have learned from the evil spirits of Baal, in return for their many child sacrifices to him.

This Babylonian money-magick involved the substation of paper credit certificates for gold and silver deposits, which allowed travelers to travel with their money in a form that offered easy replacement should they lose the certificates or have them stolen.

Interesting how the very problem that was started by the Khazarians also had a solution provided by them. Eventually the Khazarian king and his small surrounding court infiltrated Germany with a group that chose the name “the Bauers” of Germany to represent them and carry on their Baal-powered system of evil. The Bauers of the Red Shield, which represented their secret blood-based child sacrifices, changed their name to Rothschild (aka “child of the rock, Satan”).

*The Rothschilds as the front Men for the Khazarian Mafia (KM) infiltrate and Hijack British Banking and then hijack the whole nation of England:*

Bauer/Rothschild had five sons who infiltrated and took over European banking and the City of London Central Banking System through various crafty covert operations, including a false report of Napoleon winning against the British, when actually he lost. This allowed the Rothschilds to use fraud and deception to steal the wealth of the English nobility and the landed gentry, who had made business investments with the City of London Banking institutions.

The Rothschilds set up a private Fiat banking system that specialized in making counterfeit money from nothing — charging pernicious usury for the British people, using what should have been their own money.

This was the black art of Babylonian money-magick; they claimed to insiders that such technology and secret money power was provided to them by Baal, because of their frequent child bleeding-out and sacrifices rituals to Baal.

Once they had infiltrated and hijacked the British banking system, they interbred with the British Royals and infiltrated and completely hijacked all of England and all its major institutions. Some experts believe that the Rothschilds genocided the Royal Family members by staging secretly-managed illicit and adulterous breedings with their own Khazarian men in order to replace the Royals with their own pretenders to the throne.

*The Khazarian Mafia (KM) wages an international effort to eradicate Kings who rule by the Divine Right of God Almighty:*

Because the KM claims to have a personal partnership with Baal (aka the Devil, Lucifer, Satan) because of their sacrifices to him. They detest any kings who rule under the authority of God Almighty because most feel a responsibility to make sure their own people are protected from infiltrators and treasonous “Enemies within the Gates.”

In the 1600’s, the KM murder the British Royals and substitute their own fakes. In the 1700’s, they murder the French Royals. Right before WWI they murder, Austrian Archduke Ferdinand to start WW1. In 1917 they assembled their KM army, the Bolsheviks, and infiltrate and hijack Russia, murder the Czar and his family in cold blood, bayonet his favorite daughter through the chest and steal all the Russian gold, silver and art treasures. Right before WW2, they murder the Austrian and German Royals. Then they get rid of the Chinese Royals and disempower the Japanese ruler.

The Khazarian Mafia’s intense hatred of anyone who professed faith in any God but their god Baal has motivated them to murder kings and royalty, and make sure they can never rule. They have done the same with American presidents — running sophisticated covert operations to disempower them.

If that doesn’t work the KM assassinates them, like they did to McKinley, Lincoln and JFK. The KM wants to eliminate any strong rulers or elected officials who dare to resist their Babylonian money-magick power or their covert power gained from their deployment of their human compromise network.

*The Rothschilds create international narcotics trafficking on behalf of the KM:*

The Rothschilds then covertly ran the British Empire and crafted an evil plan to recover the vast amounts of gold and silver the British had been paying to China for its high-quality silk and spices that were unavailable anywhere else.

The Rothschilds, through their international spy network, had heard of Turkish opium and its habit-forming characteristics. They deployed a covert operation to buy Turkish opium and sell it in China, infecting millions with a bad opium habit that brought back gold and silver into the Rothschild coffers, but not to the British People.

The opium addictions created by Rothschild opium sales to China harmed China so much that China went to war on two occasions to stop it. These wars were known as the Boxer Rebellions or the Opium Wars.

The money the Rothschilds gained from the sale of opium was so vast that they became even more addicted to the easy money than the opiate addicts were to the opium.

The Rothschilds were the funding source behind the establishment of the American Colonies, by incorporating the Hudson Bay Company and other trading companies to exploit the New World of the Americas. It was the Rothschild’s who ordered the mass extermination and genocide of the indigenous people of North America to allow for exploitation of the vast natural resources of the continent.

The Rothschild’s also followed the same business template in the Caribbean and in the Asian sub-continent of India, resulting in the murder of millions of innocent people.

*The Rothschilds start the international slave trade, an enterprise that viewed these kidnapped humans as mere animals — a view that the Khazarians would impose on all the people of the world who were not part of their evil circle, which some called the “Old Black Nobility”:*

The Rothschild’s next big project was to start the worldwide slave trade, buying slaves from crooked tribal chiefs in Africa who worked with them to kidnap members of competing tribes for sale as slaves.

The Rothschild slave traders then took these kidnapped slaves on their ships in cramped cells to America and the Caribbean where they were sold. Many died at sea due to bad conditions.

The Rothschild bankers learned early on that war was a great way to double their money in a short time by lending money to both warring sides. But in order to be guaranteed collections, they had to get taxation laws passed, which could be used to force payment.

*The KM Rothschild private Fiat Counterfeit Banksters plot eternal revenge against the American Colonists and Russia who assisted them for losing the Revolutionary War:*

When the Rothschilds lost the American Revolution, they blamed the Russian czar and the Russians for assisting the colonists by blockading British Ships.

They swore eternal revenge on the American colonists, just as they had when the Russians and their allies crushed Khazaria in 1,000 AD.

The Rothschilds and their English oligarchy that surrounded them plotted ways to retake America, and this became their main obsession.

Their favored plan is to set up an American central bank, featuring Babylonian money magic and secret counterfeiting.

*The Rothschild KM attempts to retake America in 1812 on behalf of the Khazarian Mafia but fails, once again because of Russian interference:*

This failure enraged the Rothschild KM, and they once again plot eternal revenge against both the Russians and the American colonists and plan to infiltrate and hijack both nations and asset strip, tyrannize and then mass-murder both nations and their populace.

The KM’s attempts to set up a private American central bank are blocked by President Andrew Jackson, who called them Satanic and vowed to route them out by the grace and power of Almighty God.

The Rothschild banksters regroup and continue their covert attempts to install their own Babylonian money-magick bank inside America.

*Finally in 1913, the Rothschild KM succeeds in establishing a major beachhead inside America — and an evil enemy of all American enter the gates of America:*

In 1913, the Rothschild KM was able to establish a beachhead by bribing crooked, treasonous members of Congress to pass the illegal, Unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act on Christmas Eve without a required quorum. The Act was then signed by a crooked, bought off President, who was a traitor to America, like the members of Congress who voted for it.

*The Rothschild KM then create an illegal taxation System in America:*

The KM put an illegal, Unconstitutional tax system in place, in order to make sure that Americans would have to pay for high-level USG spending, approved by a bought-off, crooked Congress and Presidential puppets, put in place by corrupt KM campaign finance.

It is easy for the KM to garner enough money to elect anyone they want, because when you control a bank that is a secret major counterfeiter, you have all the money made for you that you desire. At about the same time that they created their illegal tax system in America, they also bribed members of Congress to approve the Internal Revenue Service, which is their private collection agency incorporated in Puerto Rico.

Soon afterwards, they set up the Federal Bureau of Investigation to protect their banksters, to serve their cover-up needs and prevent them from ever being prosecuted for their child sacrifice rituals, pedophile networks; and to also serve as a covert Intel operation on their behalf.

Note that the FBI has no official charter, according to the Library of Congress, and has no right to exist or issue paychecks.

*The Rothschild KM deployed the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia to extract incredibly savage, bloody revenge on innocent Russians, which they had plotted for many years, ever since Khazaria was destroyed:*

The Rothschild KM pre-staged and engineered the Russian Revolution by using its central banks to pay for the Bolshevik infiltration of Russia and their Revolution on behalf of the Khazarian Mafia (KM).
The Bolsheviks were actually created and deployed by the Khazarian Mafia (KM) as the essential part of their long planned revenge on the Russian Czar and the innocent Russian people for breaking up Khazaria in about 1,000 AD for its repeated robbery, murder and identity theft of travelers from countries surrounding Khazaria. This little known fact explains the extreme violence taken out on Russia as long standing revenge by the Rothschild controlled Khazarian Mafia (KM).

In an well-planned savage and inhuman bloodletting that stunned the world, the Bolsheviks were unleashed in full fury on behalf of the KM to gain revenge on the Russians. This had been planned since the destruction of Khazaria.

The Bolsheviks, at the direction of the Rothschild KM, raped, tortured and mass-murdered approximately 100 million Russians, including women, children and infants. Some of the torture and bloodletting was so extreme, we are not going to mention it here in this article.

But readers who want to know can do some in depth internet research on the “Red Terror” or the “Bolshevik Cheka” or watch the classic movie “The Checkist” which is available on www.youtube.com.
*The Rothschild Khazarian Mafia (KM) once again decided to sheep-dip themselves and infiltrated and hijacked all Judaism:*

The Rothschild KM created a master plan to control all of Judaism and mind-kontrol Judaics. The Rothschild KM has hijacked Judaism, patterned it off of Babylonian Talmudism (Luciferianism or Satanism), and gained control over the banking and Wall Street professions in general, Congress, the major mass media; along with most wealth and economic means of success.

Thus, the Rothschild KM could pass out wealth and success to those Judaics who drank their Kool-aide and use them as cutouts, assets and Sayanims. In this manner, the Rothschilds hijacked Judaism.

Their financing of the Israeli Knesset and construction of it using Freemason occult architecture displayed their commitment to the occult and Babylonian Talmudism and all the evil accompanying it, including child sacrifice to their secret god Baal. They set up a NWO system called World Zionism which taught and inculcated susceptible Judaics with a paranoid group delusion of racial superiority, which assumed that all Gentiles were intent on mass-murdering all Judaics.

Freemasonry architecture was used in the building of the Knesset and the Israeli Supreme Court, viewed through windows.

They called this racially-paranoid mass Judaic delusion of world conquest, “World Zionism”, which is really a form of covert Babylonian Talmudism or Luciferianism that had been unknown to mainstream Judaics. The system was designed to use Judaics as cover, but also to anoint them with Babylonian money-power, in order to use them as cutouts, and to later be sacrificed to Lucifer in two stages.

The first stage would be a their planned WWII in Nazi work camps, cut off from supplies, resulting in the deaths of about 200,000 Judaics from starvation and disease, along with about 90,000 non-Judaic inmates from the same causes, according to respected Red Cross official figures. This number is 5% of what the Khazarian Mafia (aka the World Zionists) claim.

The second great sacrifice would be a final one, when their New World Order Luciferian King would be placed into power, and when all three Abrahamic religions would be eradicated — especially Judaism, which would be blamed for all the wars and destruction of the world.

By then, the Rothschilds would once again morph themselves into a complete new identity not associated with Judaism in any form, not even World Zionism.

It is important to realize that the Rothschild KM took Germany down to nothing after WWI, created a vacuum for Fascism, and then rebuilt it, creating Naziism and installing Hitler as a counter-force to their Russian Bolshevism.

Hitler became a problem for the KM when he broke free and begin acting in the interests of the German people and the free people of the world, and developed his own banking system free of the Rothschilds.

Hitler introduced a financial system that was free of usury and beneficial to the working class. This mandated the utter destruction of Germany and the German people, because the Rothschilds and the Khazarians could never allow an economic system that did not depend upon usury to exist.

We see the same thing today with the Khazarian war against Islam, because Islam forbids usury. That is why Israel is so vocal and aggressive about destroying the Islamic people of the world.

The KM expected this to be a large WWII and when they supported both sides, this could be used to industrialize the whole world and maximize their bankster money-power.





*The Rothschild KM then bribed and induced Members of Congress to send American Soldiers to their pre-stage and engineered WWI:*

As a continuance of their well-proven pattern of financing both sides in any war to maximize profits, the acquisition of more federal tax monies and increased international power, the Rothschild Khazarians once again bribed, blackmailed and induced members of Congress to declare war against Germany in 1917.

This was facilitated by a KM false-flag attack with the sinking of the Lusitania.

The Rothschild KM has since developed the usual pattern of covertly staging false-flag attacks as a standard operating procedure for inducing Americans to fighting wars for the Khazarian Mafia.

After WWII was finished, the Rothschild KM deployed the Cold War, and used this as an excuse to bring Nazi scientists and mind-kontrol experts to America under Operation Paperclip.

This allowed them to set up a worldwide spying and espionage system that far exceeded any of their prior efforts.

Under this new system, they continue to infiltrate and hijack all American institutions, including the various American church systems, Freemasonry (especially the Scottish Rite and York Rite), the US military, US Intel, and most private defense contractors, the Judiciary and most agencies of the USG, including most State governments, and both major political parties as well.





*The Rothschild KM sets up Nazi Work Camps as a pretext to later manipulate the Allies into granting them their own private colony in Palestine, using land stolen from the Palestinians:*

The Rothschild KM was able to use their self mis-labelled, so-called “holocaust” to serve as a mind-kontrol trigger to thwart and resist any criticism of their Zionist ways.

The truth of the matter was that the Rothschild KM set up the Nazi work camps to make huge profits for their corporations that ran their work camps and supplied their Nazi war machine.

Once the Rothschild KM gained their own private homeland in Israel in 1947 through their covert political manipulations, they began to secretly view all of Palestine as their New Khazaria, and began plotting how to genocide all the Palestinians and steal all of Palestine for themselves. Their plans include their fantasy of constructing a “greater Israel” by taking over the whole Middle East and manipulating dumb American Goyim to fight and die on their behalf, taking all the Arab lands for Israel and the Khazarian Mafia (KM), so they can asset strip their wealth and natural resources, especially their crude oil.

Recent peer-reviewed Johns Hopkins genetic research by a respected Judaic MD shows that 97.5% of Judaics living in Israel have absolutely no ancient Hebrew DNA, are therefore not Semites, and have no ancient blood ties to the land of Palestine at all. By contrast, 80% of Palestinians carry ancient Hebrew DNA and thus are real Semites, and have ancient blood ties to Palestinian Land. This means that the real anti-Semites are the Israelis who are stealing Palestinian lands in order to build Israeli settlements, and it is the Israelis who are the ones tyrannizing and mass-murdering innocent Palestinians.





*The Rothschild KM decides to morph again and expand their ranks:*

In the meantime the Rothschild KM realized that they could not stay hidden much longer from the public unless they morphed again and expanded their secret leadership.

So they worked hard to further infiltrate and hijack Freemasonry and its secret offshoots, and inducted top members into their pedophile network and child sacrifice rituals.

Also, key members of Congress were inducted into their secret satanic network by giving them special power, high USG, military and Intel positions, accompanied by great monetary rewards and high status. Massive KM espionage fronts using Israeli-Americam “Israeli-first” dual citizens as cutouts were set up inside America to funnel the Khazarian banksters’ counterfeit money to politicians for their election campaigns, in order to own and control them when elected.





*The Rothschild KM decides to Mind-kontrol the American masses to make it much easier to manipulate them into approving their illegal, Unconstitutional unprovoked, undeclared, unwinnable, perpetual wars needed to make huge profits and gain more world power:*

The Rothschild KM decided to gain complete control over all public education by setting up the Department of Education and creating globalist and socialist curriculums based on political correctness, diversity and “perversion is normal” teachings. Fluoride is added to the public water and toothpaste, and dentists are mind-kontrolled to believe that fluoride prevents cavities, and is not harmful to brain function or thyroid function, which it is.

The addition of fluoride to the public water supply and to toothpaste is to dumb-down Americans by on average lowering the operational IQ and making folks much more docile than they would normally be. Programs to develop and deploy vaccinations to dumb-down children and create huge numbers of future chronic health problems were initiated.

Doctors have been mind-kontrolled and misled by biased research that was cherry-picked, ignoring any studies that were negative — and that included most of them. All vaccine cell lines are contaminated with SV-40, a known carcinogenic slow-acting virus.

The KM used its monetary power to gain control over all of the allopathic medical schools, and set up and controlled the American Medical Association and other medical societies, in order to make sure their agenda based on lies and deceit was continued.

Part of this massive plan to dumb-down and mind-kontrol the American masses was the KM’s buying up and consolidating all the American mass media into six controlled major mass media (CMMM), owned and controlled by their cutouts on their behalf. The CMMM functions as an illegal news cartel, and it should be broken up under antitrust laws and for inflicting espionage and illegal propaganda as a weapon of war against the American people.

*The Rothschild KM Chieftains decide that it is time to use America to complete their final take-down and occupation of the Whole World by instituting a major False-Flag attack inside America to blame on the Islamics whom they want America to wrongly attack on their behalf:*





So the KM Chieftains use their top Israeli-American “Israeli-first” dual citizens living in America (aka, the PNACers and top NeoCon Cutouts) to plan a major nuclear attack on America on 9-11-01.

Bibi Netanyahu, the operational head of the KM, deployed the Mossad and these Dual Citizens to set up and institute this attack on America which was to be blamed by the CMMM on Muslims.

They informed their top Rabbis and “Friends of World Zionism” not to fly on that day and to stay out of NYC, as did “Larry Silverfish”, one of the primary men involved in the operation.

They used their main cutout in the DOD to lure the Able Danger investigators to the Pentagon Naval Intel meeting room, where they would be assassinated by a Tomahawk cruise missile that was fired from an Israeli Dolphin class Diesel submarine bought from Germany.

Thirty-five of the Able Danger investigators who were investigating and tracking the Israeli theft of 350 decommissioned W-54 Davy Crockett nuclear pits out of the backdoor at Pantex in Texas were murdered by this Tomahawk hit, which was timed with the detonation of bombs pre-planted in the Naval Intel wing, which was newly hardened to no avail.

The Israeli Mossad front company, Urban Moving Systems, was used to transport the mini-nukes made from the stolen W-54 nuclear pits from Pantex (and originally made at the Hanford processing plant), where they were stored in the Israeli Embassy in NYC and transported to the Twin Towers for detonation on 9-11-01.


Baal aka Moloch, Lucifer, Satan. Take your pick it’s the same evil spirit that wants to mass-murder all humans. In exchange for doing his “dirty work” he rewards those allow him to snatch their souls by giving them incredible riches, fame and power. This is the secret blood contract called “selling one’s soul.”

*The incredibly Evil Secret Agenda of the Khazarian Mafia (KM) is now revealed publicly for the very first time by Veterans Today’s own Gordon Duff. We now know that Bibi Netanyahu ran the nuclear attack on America on 9-11-01 and did it as an overall Khazarian Mafia (KM) Agenda.*

Hold on to your chair, this is very big secret and explains a lot of what has been going on inside America, all caused by Israel and the Khazarian Mafia (KM) which has infiltrated almost all of Americas institutions of Government and society.

Now for the first time ever the very specific secret incredibly Evil Agenda of the Khazarian Mafia (KM) is going to be revealed, thanks to an interview that Mike Harris had with Veterans Today Senior Editor and Director Gordon Duff on his talk-show “The Short End of the Stick” on 3-10-15.

I have heard a lot of shocking insider’s secrets over the years but this one really takes the cake and explains exactly what Israel and its minions in America have been to us on behalf of the Rothschild Khazarian Mafia (KM) that has screwed up almost every aspect of our lives creating a poor economy, lots of unemployment and underemployment, massive crime, alcoholism and drug, screwed up schools that dumb down the kids, various eugenics programs like fluoride in the public water and toothpaste, and mercury in vaccines which are a big fraud, and rampant political corruption.

This interview is now sending shock-waves around the world and when you consider the content that Gordon Duff disclosed for the first time anywhere publicly, you will be shocked. And you will understand that Bibi Netanyahu is the Operational Head of the Khazarian Mafia (KM) and was the one that ordered and supervised the Israeli Nuclear Attack on America on 9-11-01.

In this interview Gordon Duff disclosed from a written transcript of what was said at a meeting between Bibi Netanyahu and American traitor and some other spies in 1990. Gordon Duff disclosed that Netanyahu was a KGB spy like Jonathan Pollard. And we know now that Israel was started as a satellite of Bolshevik Russia and was quite unhappy when the Soviet Union fell.

Benjamin Netanyahu was meeting in at Finks bar in Jerusalem, a well-known Mossad watering-hole. Here is what he said as taken directly from the transcript of the recording which was witnessed and has been 100% fully authenticated:

*“If we get caught they will just replace us with persons of the same cloth. So it doesn’t matter what you do, America is a Golden Calf and we will suck it dry, chop it up, and sell it off piece by piece until there is nothing left but the World’s biggest welfare state that we will create and control. Why? Because it’s god’s will and America is big enough to take the hit so we can do it again, again and again. This is what we do to countries that we hate. We destroy them very slowly and make them suffer for refusing to be our slaves.”*

This is exactly what the Rothschild Khazarian Mafia (KM) has been doing to America since it successfully infiltrated and hijacked America in 1913. Knowledge of what Bibi said on behalf of the Rothschild Khazarian Mafia (KM) should make us all furious and get motivated to drive these evil creatures out of America and take our great Republic back.

When Bibi Netanyahu mentions god’s will, the god he was referring to is Baal (also known as the Great Owl or Moloch), the god these Khazarians believe requires them to worship him by constant bloodletting and painful human sacrifice and mass-murder and that if they “sell their souls” to Baal (aka Lucifer or Satan) do this they will be rewarded with incredible riches, fame and great power. When they “sell their souls” what actually happens is that their souls are snatched away and they become inhuman or soulless and take on the characteristics of Baal, that is they become increasingly psychopathic and evil.

What Bibi Netanyahu was discussing was the upcoming nuclear attack on America on 9-11-01, and when he mentioned “they will just replace us” he was referring to the top Circle of Twelve, the group he answers to that Veterans Today’s own Columnist and talk show host Stew Webb disclosed to the World by identifying 11 of the 12 who call themselves the “Illuminati” or “Disciples of Satan.” These men do semi-annual child sacrifice in Denver and eat the hearts of children, drink their blood after they pedophile them.

Folks, we must get this information out to everyone we can, then unite and drive these soulless Baal worshiping scum out of every nook and cranny of America and bring them all to justice and final judgement for all their incredible evil.

Anyone who understands what Bibi Netanyahu thinks of Americans as a golden calf to asset strip and slaughter should be enraged and driven to community organizing, and political action against Israeli espionage inside America through the Federal Reserve System, AIPAC, JINSA, the Defense Policy Board, the CFR and the like.

*The Rothschild KM planted has 25 nukes in major American cities and other major cities in Europe in order to blackmail the associated government. This is referred to as their Samson Option, and was first discovered and disclosed by Seymour Hersh:*



The Rothschild KM also gained some S-19 and S-20 Warheads from a corrupt Member of Congress assigned the task to buy up Ukrainian Mirvs on behalf of the USG in order to decommission them. Instead, he sold them to the Israelis and split the money with other key Congressmen involved.

This is high treason and a capital offense punishable by execution. Right after their attack on America, the Rothschild KM told the US Administration that they would detonate city-buster sized nukes in some American cities, including DC, if the Administration refused to allow Israel to create their own large police state occupation force inside America, based on the consolidation of all American Law Enforcement and alphabets under one central Israeli control.

This new Israeli occupation force called Homeland Security (DHS) was initially run by dual citizens and perverts. Former DHS Director Janet Napolitano is being sued for sexual harassment of men working at DHS whom she ordered to move their offices into the men’s lavatory.

Dual Citizen traitor Michael Chertoff, (a name translated from Russian as “son of the devil”), was the criminal mastermind that set up DHS, along with former head of the East German Stasi, Marcus Wolfe, who was hired as a special consultant and died mysteriously as soon as his mission was completed.

The Rothschild KM never thought they would get exposed for their nuclear attack on America on 9-11-11, but they made one of the biggest tactical mistakes in history and overplayed their hand from excess hubris, based on too much easy success due to their extreme money power in the past.

*Soon mainstream America will know that Bibi Netanyahu and his Likudist Party deployed the attack on America on 9-11-01 on behalf of the Rothschild KM:*

They thought that they had complete control over the CMMM and could prevent any of the secret IAEA and Sandia Labs investigation from ever being released to the American public.

They made a serious tactical error, because now the truth about their role in the 9-11-01 attack on America is being published on the worldwide Internet, the world’s new Gutenberg Press. What the Rothschild KM did not understand was the power of the Internet and how truth-nuggets published and broadcast on it resonate with the people of the world and spread like wildfire, at the speed of light. Truth is being diffused to the masses everywhere.

This incredible tactical error by the KM is so great that it will actually doom them to the complete exposure and eventual complete destruction they deserve. Bibi Netanyahu’s order to proceed and deliver the nuclear attack on America on 9-11-01 will go down in history as one of the KM’s biggest mistakes, and the one that will be blamed for their exposure and destruction by the world that is now ganging up against them.

The Russians have now leaked the IAEA and Sandia Labs and Able Danger files given to them by Edward Snowden. Soon all of these files will be provided to all Americans and the world via the Internet, and this cannot be stopped.

A number of Russians in the High Military Command in Russia, and in the highest positions of leadership in the Russian government realize that it was the same Organized Crime Cabal that organized the Khazarians into Bolsheviks to mass-murder 100 million innocent Russians — and these men want payback.

That is why they are making sure that the Rothschild banksters will be put out of business, which will decapitate the Khazarian Mafia from its endless, elastic counterfeit money supply. This is why the BRICS Development Bank was created — to replace the US Petro Dollar as the world’s reserve currency, but this one, unlike the US Petro Dollar is backed by gold, silver and real commodities, with NO counterfeiting allowed.

The CMMM is failing, and most Americans no longer believe any of their prime-time national stories, especially the under-thirty crowd, who cherry pick facts from the Internet and construct their own beliefs.

So many Internet users now reject the CMMM that the truth about the Israelis attacking America on 9-11-01 is becoming easier each day to believe. Soon all of mainstream America will know that Bibi Netanyahu and his Mossad and dual citizens did the 9-11-01 attack on America.

*The American Military High Command knows that Bibi Netanyahu ordered his Mossad and stateside Dual Citizens to attack America using nukes on 9-11-01 on behalf of the Rothschild Khazarian Mafia (KM):*

Various deep cover covert operations are now being deployed globally to expose and decapitate the Rothschild KM from their endless, elastic money supply.

Their days of anti-human power are now limited. The secret, incredibly well-trained US team called the “Nuclear Snake-Eaters” is now hard at work searching all incoming Israeli diplomatic pouches and shipments; driving by and flying over synagogues and Israeli embassies and Mossad safe-houses with high tech gamma ray and helium-3 neutron detectors; and using ultra high-tech custom-tuned and -focused satellites to search for any stored nuclear pits, as well as working hard to recover all stolen nuclear pits by the Israelis anywhere in the world outside of Israel.

This super-elite team was alerted by Michael Shrimpton’s phone call to MI-6 notifying them that an Israeli “City Buster” was planted near the Olympic stadium. This call wrongly has landed him in jail. The City Buster was recovered by the “Nuclear Snake-eaters”, who entered England and recovered and disarmed a large city buster. Sadly MI-6, wanted this nuke detonated in order to gain more power for the Khazarian Mafia in England — their home base inside the City of London Financial District — since it has been losing power fast.

secret name for these KM Chieftains which run much of the world out of the City of London is Gog and Magog, despite what so many historians believe is the secret name of Russia which it is not. It is the secret name of the top KM, and apparently represents where they originally came from.

The secret team of super-elite “Nuclear Snake-eaters” is ready to be deployed to Israel anytime, should the nation collapse after most European corporations divest from Israel, and the US cuts off all aid, in order to comply with American law. It is illegal to give aid to a nation that has nukes, and which has not signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Agreement. Israel has nukes detectable from satellite-based Helium-3 sensors and has never admitted it, nor has it signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Agreement. We must all demand that our Congress and Administration obey the law and immediately cut off all aid monetary and military aid to Israel, and arrest all Israeli espionage front directors of AIPAC, JINSA, the Defense Policy Board, the “Joint” in NYC, and the ADL, etc.

It is unknown but suspected that a significant number of these stolen nukes have been already recovered. It has been reported by insiders that a very solemn message was communicated to Bibi Netanyahu and his Likudists, as well as all top members of Israeli espionage fronts in America, like AIPAC, JINSA, the Defense Policy Board, the ADL and the like.

What was this serious warning? If insider reports are accurate, these folks were told that if there is one more Israeli based false-flag attack, those who ordered it or were involved will be hunted down under American National Security and eliminated, and the Israeli defense structures associated with such will be turned to dust.

*The rest of Rothschild KM history will likely be determined by YOU:*

The future of the Rothschild KM will likely be determined by Veterans Today readers and We The People who learn the secret, forbidden history of the Khazarian Mafia that was excised from the history books and libraries by the KM to protect their evil history that no one would accept if it was known.

So share this story with your family, friends and associates and take it viral. Be clear about this — unless the KM is able to operate in abject secrecy, it will be attacked from all sides and destroyed forever. So take away their secrecy by exposing their hidden history for all Americans to know and understand.

That is why they have worked so hard to buy up and control the CMMM and public mass education including colleges and universities, to make sure the people of the world would never find out about their secret evil, which is so inhuman, so homicidal that the whole world would gang up on them and attack them from all sides at every level they exist at.

The big question remains: Was the true cause of leaders of the Khazarian Mafia’s incredible evil and savagery toward the human race a byproduct or nature or nurture? Some believe that this gross parasitism and inclination to mass-murder, engage in pedophilia and child bloodletting and child sacrifice is due to a toxic culture, best described as malignant Tribalism, characterized by a paranoid group racial superiority delusion. Others think the leaders of the KM are the bloodline of Cain, that is, “children of Cain”, that are the Devil’s own and have absolutely no soul or human conscience, but are pure predators like a wild beast — while at the same time being incredibly two-faced, that is able to put on a good con and a nice face on the outside. Perhaps it could be both factors. In any case, it is time to expose this evil, the greatest evil the world has ever experienced. It is time for the world to work together to eradicate this problem now and forever, by whatever means necessary.

__*Mike Harris* is the Financial Editor of Veterans Today, a radio host, a former GOP Finance Chairman, Gubernatorial Candidate for Arizona, and a Senior Vice President of Adamus Defense Group, Switzerland. Mike is an expert in full-contact mixed martial arts. His long term expertise in such has gained him a lot of respect and the nickname “Iron Mike”.Mike was a part of the Veterans Today group that attended the Damascus Conference to Combat Terrorism and Religious Extremism. Mike gave about twenty five televised interviews that were broadcast to millions of viewers in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Iran. In these interviews Mike emphasized and supported the historical declaration by Keynote Speaker, Veterans Today Senior Editor and Chairman Gordon Duff that the real problem behind World Terrorism is a large Organized Crime Syndicate._

Bonus Video for those who have time and interest on the Head of the Khazarian Mafia (KM) Snake.

*The views expressed herein are the views of the author exclusively and not necessarily the views of VT, VT authors, affiliates, advertisers, sponsors, partners, technicians, or the Veterans Today Network and its assigns. LEGAL NOTICE - COMMENT POLICY *

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## salarsikander

A.P. Richelieu said:


> You make the accusation, and You do not provide any sources.
> Produce some to be taken seriously...


I have. you have always refuted the truth,, so why would it be any different now ?

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## Lagay Raho

Starlord said:


> You never Heard that " Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend " ? are we not taught to hate , kill and destroy the Zionist/Israel State ? what do you expect them to do ? send you some Fresh Candies ? Our pilots actively involved in Wars against Israel that is why they see you as Threat and try to contain you with Help of our Eternal Enemy India. have you ever try to create Diplomatic ties with them ? so many of your Arab Brothers are Enjoying the Friendly Relation with Israel yet we " Pakistani " are just following the KSA lead like a Good sheep .. or we are too afraid for the Mullah Reactions that they will destroy half of Pakistan by Shouting Allah Ho akber and Death to the Jews !!
> 
> They plan but did not Attack and that is what matters , and if we are looking just planning as Attack than why are we still in US feet ? they plan to send us back to the stone age ? Russians help India and break half of our country , UK's Mi6 is actively Involved in Sponsoring Anti Pakistan Elements , and lets not mention what our Arab brothers have done to us in the name of Sectarian War , and the Price we pay , everyday in the streets of Pakistan ...
> 
> Let me Clear this for you ,and other who must be getting ready to jump on me over this , I am in Favor of Pakistan and Israel Diplomatic Relations, but i Disagree with their way to tackle the Palestine Matter .. so my problem is with their State Policy not with the State, just you have the right to Exist, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah aka Quaid-e-Azam snatch a piece of Land right under the nose of Indian Hindu's and Britishers , Israel get their ... they fought and won , It is as simple as that .. you and i we both know that in future if Muslims in ME become Powerful enough the first thing they will do is wipe Israel out from the face of the earth ..
> 
> For the sake of Peace in Region i would be happy for Pakistani Establishment to sit with Israeli counter parts and set terms for Financial , Trading , Cultural Exchange , Defense etc ..
> 
> No country is Sane , we all have a dark past and a bloody history full of wars , Operations , Misadventures etc .. but in the end What matters is " They did not Attack Pakistan and we did not Attack them " .
> 
> P.S for some Emotional Posters , what i wrote is my Personal Opinion and you have all the right to agree or Disagree but in a Civilized manner .
> 
> Regards .


I wud rather leave Pakistan before we make contact with Israel


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## salarsikander

war&peace said:


> First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled
> 
> I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.
> 
> No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will be nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration
> 
> Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.
> 
> You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.
> 
> Israel was created by the British through military intervention and Jews were brought there from all over the world..I think you are not goof enough to believe that the Ashkenazi Jews are original inhabitants of the region Right? so Israel was created through an illegal occupation and still the problem is growing as the process of colonisation is still going on and Palestinian territory is constantly shrinking along with the worst possible human rights violations and genocide.
> I think you should get some quality books on history since the education system you have been through didn't do much for raising your knowledge of history. Just for a hint....even Kenya was considered for housing an Israel.
> 
> Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.
> 
> Now their plan to attack Pakistan's nuclear plant was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...
> 
> In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.
> 
> And would you like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other so I need some clear evidence to understand your point...
> 
> I think I have refuted most of your points through knowledgeable and logical counter arguments and kept my word and I would expect you to do the same and suggest you do some reading.
> 
> Regards,
> WnP
> @salarsikander @Khafee


Excleent counter points. very well versed post. For some reason I didnt get the TAG notification. Perhaps the @WebMaster can look into this. 

Getting back to the Topic. The Jews themselves denounce the forbidden state let alone gentiles saying anything about it



Lagay Raho said:


> I wud rather leave Pakistan before we make contact with Israel


And why is that ?

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## A.P. Richelieu

salarsikander said:


> I have. you have always refuted the truth,, so why would it be any different now ?


We are talking about EU financing settlements.
You have not shown any sources for that.
You usually present lies, half lies and strange interpretations of facts so be prepared to be criticized for that.


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## salarsikander

A.P. Richelieu said:


> We are talking about EU financing settlements.
> You have not shown any sources for that.
> You usually present lies, half lies and strange interpretations of facts so be prepared to be criticized for that.


http://www.politico.eu/article/the-eu-helps-israel-oppress-palestinians-occupation-rights-violation/

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## Muhammed45

maroofz2000 said:


>




 They will pay the prize. The same is happening in Yemen by Saudis. Whenever the Muslim world wakes up, the battle against Muslim killers can begin. Al-Saud, Israel and USA.


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## A.P. Richelieu

salarsikander said:


> http://www.politico.eu/article/the-eu-helps-israel-oppress-palestinians-occupation-rights-violation/



That source does not say that EU is funding any settlements, try again...
It says that EU trades with Israel, which is not the same thing.
It also says that the EU cooperates with Israeli companies involved in their arnament industry.
Again irrelevant for the discussion.


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## Hamartia Antidote

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Anyway, if the US declares war on Sweden we will be safe, since they are likely to attack Switzerland...



After that we'll hit their neighbor Australia for good measure.


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## risingsinga

war&peace said:


> First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled
> 
> I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.
> 
> No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will be nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration
> 
> Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.
> 
> You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.
> 
> Israel was created by the British through military intervention and Jews were brought there from all over the world..I think you are not goof enough to believe that the Ashkenazi Jews are original inhabitants of the region Right? so Israel was created through an illegal occupation and still the problem is growing as the process of colonisation is still going on and Palestinian territory is constantly shrinking along with the worst possible human rights violations and genocide.
> I think you should get some quality books on history since the education system you have been through didn't do much for raising your knowledge of history. Just for a hint....even Kenya was considered for housing an Israel.
> 
> Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.
> 
> Now their plan to attack Pakistan's nuclear plant was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...
> 
> In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.
> 
> And would you like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other so I need some clear evidence to understand your point...
> 
> I think I have refuted most of your points through knowledgeable and logical counter arguments and kept my word and I would expect you to do the same and suggest you do some reading.
> 
> Regards,
> WnP
> @salarsikander @Khafee


Splendid article...informative, factual and a joy to read..Congratulations...I wish I could give you a positive rating


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## A.P. Richelieu

Hamartia Antidote said:


> After that we'll hit their neighbor Australia for good measure.


"When Germans open fire, the Tommys duck. When the Tommys open fire, Germans duck. When Americans open fire, everybody ducks".


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