# Y-20 heavy transport aircraft News & Discussions



## beijingwalker

*Y-20 heavy transport aircraft successful maiden flight today*

14&#65306;48 &#36816;20&#20302;&#31354;&#36890;&#22330;&#65292;&#25671;&#26179;&#26426;&#32764;&#12290;
14:48 Y-20 low pass over runway, shaking its wing.

15&#65306;00 &#36816;-20&#25104;&#21151;&#38477;&#33853;&#65292;&#39318;&#39134;&#22278;&#28385;&#25104;&#21151;&#65281;
15:00 Y-20 landed. Maiden flight successful.
















> Named as the Y-20, China's first large military transport aircraft carries the dream and expectation of millions of Chinese people. Compared with the Il-76MD, the Y-20 has larger volume, more reasonable fuselage space and layout, and higher engine power.
> 
> The Y-20 not only outperforms Il-76 but also has Chinese characteristics in supercritical airfoils, integrated avionics, cabin equipment, composite materials and their processing.
> 
> The performance parameters of the Y-20 are quite close to those of Russian Il-476. Operated by three aircrew members, the Y-20 has the highest load-carrying capacity of 66 tons, a fuselage length of 47 meters, a wingspan of 45 meters and a height of 15 meters, and bears the maximum take-off weight of a little more than 200 tons. It has a traditional layout and strong adaptability to take-off and landing fields, as evidenced by being able to take off and land at airstrips and carry the vast majority of combat and support vehicles of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA).
> 
> Currently, the representative types of large transport aircraft are the U.S. Boeing C-17 Globemaster III and Russian Ilyushin Il-76, and only the U.S. and Russia in the world are able to develop large transport aircraft.

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## rcrmj

first achievement of 2013, and more are coming, please fasten your seatbelts

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## cnleio

A valuable tool for the big power country (global strategic delivery), WELL DONE!
Very useful for humanitarian relief assistance, Army and troops delivery. 
For the future challenge, China just need many domestic large transport airplanes like Y-20.

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## khanboy007

Congratulations and WELL DONE

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## cybertron

congratss!!!

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## beijingwalker

*China's First Heavy Transporter Y-20 Takes Off*
2013-01-26 16:21:18 CRIENGLISH.com 



> China began test flights Saturday for the prototype of its first indigenously-developed heavy transport aircraft, Y-20, a craft similar in size to the Russian IL-76 and somewhat smaller than the U.S. C-17.
> 
> The plane took off at around 2:00pm, according to CCTV News. But it didn't specify where the test was conducted.
> 
> The Y-20 program is part of an effort to develop an indigenous long-range jet-powered heavy transport aircraft, a top priority in China's "Medium- and Long-Term National Science and Technology Development Program (2006-20)" (MLP).
> 
> Y-20 is developed by Xian Aircraft Industry, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the country's leading military aircraft maker.
> 
> Earlier reports said it's able to accommodate most large PLA combat and support vehicles, including the Type 99 series tanks, with a capacity to carry up to 66 tons of goods.


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## cirr

Congratulations&#65281;

Now the WS-20&#8217;d better get a move on&#12290;

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## sweetgrape

It is too fat, it need diet....
Just a joke

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## Viet

@beijingwalker
Such news fits better in "Chinese defence" section. By the way, you overflood all sections with your threads.


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## Aramsogo

Viet said:


> @beijingwalker
> Such news fits better in "Chinese defence" section. By the way, you overflood all sections with your threads.



On CCTV with better pics. Congrats!!!!!!!


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## UKBengali

cnleio said:


> A valuable tool for the big power country (global strategic delivery), WELL DONE!
> Very useful for humanitarian relief assistance, Army and troops delivery.
> For the future challenge, China just need many domestic large transport airplanes like Y-20.



Without aircraft like this, China will never bee a global power.

This will allow China to transport tanks and other heavy equipment to all corners of the Globe within hours.

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## itaskol

clearst photo till now

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## djsjs

the next decade will be the boom of our aeroplane industry.

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## cnleio

itaskol said:


> clearst photo till now



COOL, pretty fat bird !


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## cirr

Now that the Y-20 has successfully made its maiden flight&#65292;AVIC-FAI and XAC can direct their FULL attention to the design and prototype development of the flying wing heavy bomber that's have been brewing for years&#12290;

One old page turned&#65292;a new page opens&#12290;

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## Soryu

Damn, it's nice plane. So where's engine come from!? Russia or Domestic!?


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## sweetgrape

Soryu said:


> Damn, it's nice plane. So where's engine come from!? Russia or Domestic!?


It is russian now, soon domestic will be equiped?? can you make a simple tire??

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## acetophenol

itaskol said:


> clearst photo till now



cool!
it does have a clamshell door,doesn;t it??

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## cirr

WS-20 is undergoing extensive tests on one IL-76 and is expected to be used on Y-20 around 2016.

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## itaskol

acetophenol said:


> cool!
> it does have a clamshell door,doesn;t it??



dont know what means "clamshell door"


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## Stealth

itaskol said:


> clearst photo till now



In Grey with PAF flag looks deadly  ...

little problem with the nose... nose little sleak.... C17 having lift nose!

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## acetophenol

itaskol said:


> dont know what means "clamshell door"


 those big doors seen on cargo aircrafts usually accompanied by a loading ramp on the back of cargo aircrafts. I asked the question because large aircrafts like y-20 are supposed to have clamshell doors or loading ramp but it isn't clear from the pic

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## Stealth

acetophenol said:


> those big doors seen on cargo aircrafts usually accompanied by a loading ramp on the back of cargo aircrafts. I asked the question because large aircrafts like y-20 are supposed to have clamshell doors or loading ramp but it isn't clear from the pic



I think the design/layout of this aircraft focus (inspiration) from USAF Globat Master C17, doors might be same like C17... let see


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## Stealth

First flight of Y-20 large transport aircraft - YouTube

wOW in Video looks really huge  lovly bird

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## cirr



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## Communist8

Will this be converted to an AWACS and tanker or are there separate planes for AWACS and tanker (maybe a C919 variant)?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

is this plane compatible with C-17 engines, maybe we can by its as dual used claim


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## yusheng

11

1


see the video


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## djsjs

yusheng said:


> 11
> 
> 1
> 
> 
> see the video



it seems the stiffness(&#21018;&#24230 of the tail wing is not big enough by your second video. we can see clearly the vibration after its landing.
after the first flight many details will be improved.


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## Echo_419

It is still no match for Somalian millitary might 

On topic 
Congratz

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## acetophenol

Stealth said:


> I think the design/layout of this aircraft focus (inspiration) from USAF Globat Master C17, doors might be same like C17... let see



C 17 does have rear doors,but the frm pic it seems that y20 has no rear door,i may be wrong though.


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## beijingwalker

acetophenol said:


> C 17 does have rear doors,but the frm pic it seems that y20 has no rear door,i may be wrong though.





> Earlier reports said it's able to accommodate most large PLA combat and support vehicles, including the* Type 99 series tanks*



if not how can they get tanks in.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

acetophenol said:


> C 17 does have rear doors,but the frm pic it seems that y20 has no rear door,i may be wrong though.



there is rear door but because of the tight fit of each panels, we couldn't see the separation line unless we get closer. Such J-20, J31 and all new manufacturing fighter have better continuty and smooth surfaces

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## hk299792458



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## Sasquatch

I'm Assuming the D30 engines are being used until the WS20 is ready, and the Y20 looks somewhat larger then the Il76 but smaller then the c17.



cirr said:


> WS-20 is undergoing extensive tests on one IL-76 and is expected to be used on Y-20 around 2016.



2016 ? I have heard it was 2018 ?

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## sepoi

Great job china  bravo. bd should buy this rather than c-130

she is a lady but her booty is too sexy  ,I can dump my gf for this fat lady no doubt 


sweetgrape said:


> It is too fat, it need diet....
> Just a joke

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

hk299792458 said:


>





Congrats on this great achievement.

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## Type 052D

Splendid. Now we can move entire airborne divisions across China within hours using this Y-20 plane.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

aircrafts comparaison

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## sepoi

i


Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> aircrafts comparaison


its like you are a kid and you are in candy store. you cant decide which you gonna buy  . my situation is like that now  . great 4 beauties.... i want 'em all

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## qwerrty

couple more

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> aircrafts comparaison



Need information about its :-

Crew: 
Payload: 
Length: 
Wingspan:
Height:
Wing area: 
Empty weight: 
Max. takeoff weight: 
Cruise speed: 
Range: 
Service ceiling: 
Max. wing loading: 
Minimum thrust/weight: 
Takeoff run at MTOW: 
Landing distance:

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Need information about its :-
> 
> Crew:
> Payload:
> Length:
> Wingspan:
> Height:
> Wing area:
> Empty weight:
> Max. takeoff weight:
> Cruise speed:
> Range:
> Service ceiling:
> Max. wing loading:
> Minimum thrust/weight:
> Takeoff run at MTOW:
> Landing distance:



I think the best guess until we got the published data is (C17 + IL76)/2


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## karan21

Great job China

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## qwerrty

about the size of il-76, a little bit wider and more volume


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I think the best guess until we got the published data is (C17 + IL76)/2



Any guess ? How long will it take in the publication of official stats ?


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## qwerrty

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Any guess ? How long will it take in the publication of official stats ?



some info already out



> *The performance parameters of the Y-20 are quite close to those of Russian Il-476. Operated by three aircrew members, the Y-20 has the highest load-carrying capacity of 66 tons, a fuselage length of 47 meters, a wingspan of 45 meters and a height of 15 meters, and bears the maximum take-off weight of a little more than 200 tons. *It has a traditional layout and strong adaptability to take-off and landing fields, as evidenced by being able to take off and land at airstrips and carry the vast majority of combat and support vehicles of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA).
> 
> *ttp://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8099537.html



smaller than c-17



> *C-17*
> 
> Crew: 3: 2 pilots, 1 loadmaster
> Payload: 170,900 lb (77,519 kg) of cargo distributed at max over 18 463L master pallets or a mix of palletized cargo and vehicles
> Length: 174 ft (53 m)
> Wingspan: 169.8 ft (51.75 m)
> Height: 55.1 ft (16.8 m)
> Wing area: 3,800 ft² (353 m²)
> Empty weight: 282,500 lb (128,100 kg)
> Max. takeoff weight: 585,000 lb (265,350 kg)
> Powerplant: 4 × Pratt & Whitney F117-PW-100 turbofans, 40,440 lbf (180 kN) each
> Fuel capacity: 35,546 U.S. gal (134,556 L)
> Cruise speed: Mach 0.76 (450 knots, 515 mph, 830 km/h)
> Range: 2,420 nmi (2,785 mi, 4,482 km) ; 5,610 nmi (10,390 km) with paratroops
> Service ceiling: 45,000 ft (13,716 m)
> Max. wing loading: 150 lb/ft² (750 kg/m²)
> Minimum thrust/weight: 0.277
> Takeoff run at MTOW: 7,600 ft (2,316 m)
> Landing distance: 3,500 ft (1,060 m)

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## Lone

Come on China give us a break !!!

Come on China give us a break !!!

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## qwerrty

while china busy building that. uncle is working on these..

i hope china have something similar on paper. need to stop playing catch up


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## razgriz19

http://pic.tiexue.net/bbs_6506231_1.html

-2014????_?_

all the pictures are here

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## Kompromat

Congratulations to our Chinese friends. China is a example for us to follow. Kudos!

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## Type 052D

qwerrty said:


> while china busy building that. uncle is working on these..
> 
> i hope china have something similar on paper. need to stop playing catch up




Well there has been reports on SAC programme of creating an PLAAF version of X-47B.


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## Mitro

Amazing these chinese people are magician always have something hidden in their magic bag.

Anyway Congrat's 

We Welcome Peaceful Rise of China

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## Mitro

This is what China is Working on right Now.







qwerrty said:


> while china busy building that. uncle is working on these..
> 
> i hope china have something similar on paper. need to stop playing catch up


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## sheik

You don't want it to be so stiff unless you want it to crash every time when it lands.
Find a C-17 landing video and you will see similar vibration.



djsjs said:


> it seems the stiffness(&#21018;&#24230 of the tail wing is not big enough by your second video. we can see clearly the vibration after its landing.
> after the first flight many details will be improved.



You don't want it to be so stiff unless you want it to crash every time when it lands.
Find a C-17 landing video and you will see similar vibration.

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## shuttler

sheik said:


> You don't want it to be so stiff unless you want it to crash every time when it lands.
> Find a C-17 landing video and you will see similar vibration.
> 
> .



Yeah, these wings must have tremendous tensile strengths.


@0:16 the wings of a C-17 also flexed upon landing. This is superb engineering and material science without them wings will break






And this also gives us an idea:



> To the naked eye, an aircraft would look like a rigid object of metal flying in the air whereas the aircrafts fuselage can actually grow a bit during flight and the wings can flex almost 15 feet on some aircrafts.



Fact about airplanes

This is pretty similar to the situation of very tall buildings that flex to accommodate strong wind loads. Scientists have learnt it well from bamboos!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nothing new...just some other video clip


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## Communist8

qwerrty said:


> while china busy building that. uncle is working on these..
> 
> i hope china have something similar on paper. need to stop playing catch up



What are these? Anyone know?


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## cirr

J-20&#12289;Y-20&#12289;Z-20&#12289;H-20&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;


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## Communist8

What's H-20?


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## mDumb

I think China should build transport plane that can carry at least two companies of fully equipped special forces that are equipped with IFVs, tanks, helicopters, artillery pieces, and anti aircraft missiles.

China has many islands in far away places to defend.

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## Teeta

Good for China.


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## conworldus

This just makes me proud! This is a step that projects China into the elite class of aviation.

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## Sasquatch

conworldus said:


> This just makes me proud! This is a step that projects China into the elite class of aviation.



I'm not surprised, what I am waiting to see is China's Stealth Bomber.

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## IND151

wrong thread. post deleted


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## IND151

Nice Plane

BTW it looks like C 17 GM 3


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## IND151

qwerrty said:


> while china busy building that. uncle is working on these..
> 
> i hope china have something similar on paper. need to stop playing catch up



looks like stealthy cargo plane

what is it?


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## hk299792458

New video from CCTV-13 showing the take-off and the landing of Y-20 in it's maiden flight...






Henri K.

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## Soryu

sweetgrape said:


> It is russian now, soon domestic will be equiped?? can you make a simple tire??


 I just want to know, nothing to provoke.

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## qwerrty

some high res pics. you can see the ramp door..

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Y-20 CG anamation

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## cnleio

Soryu said:


> I just want to know, nothing to provoke.


Now Y-20 prototype using 4x D-30 , it will change domestic jet engines(WS-20) later. 
Refer to 2011-2012 year old news i read, i think 1st groups of Y-20 still install D-30 Coz 2011 year China ordered 100+ D-30 jet engines from Russia, some for PLAAF H-6 and IL-76 and some for new domestic planes like Y-20. 

Anyway China had prepared 2 steps for military jet engines: 1st imported from Russia, 2nd developing domestic jet engines.And it's good news that new PLAAF J-11B fighters using domestic 2x WS-10A jet engines(pics in Leio's PLA Military Photo thread),PLAAF new J-11B and J-10B all using domestic WS-10A, old J-11 and J-10A still using Russia AL-31F jet engines until they retire. 
(Difference in AL-31F and WS-10A's structure shape, can't replace inside the same aircraft-body.)

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## Speeder 2

good lord, I'm late!  

y-20!!! 



peaceful said:


> ...?
> 
> or maybe check the reality that tens of thousands of vietnamese illegally cross the Chinese border so they can work there to earn their minimum wage?



man, you know that i agree with most of your posts, but this is uncalled for...



qwerrty said:


> some high res pics. you can see the ramp door..



stunning details !



conworldus said:


> This just makes me proud! This is a step that projects China into the elite class of aviation.



engine, engine, engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Hu Songshan said:


> I'm not surprised, what I am waiting to see is China's Stealth Bomber.



normally stealth bomber is under the responsibilities of XAC or SAC?

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## shuttler

Type 052D said:


> Well there has been reports on SAC programme of creating an PLAAF version of X-47B.



you mean these ones?

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## IndianTiger

hey gusy its C17 i guess. . Or chinese copied C17 also OMG.

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## shuttler

cnleio said:


> Missed this one,
> 2013.1.27 China conducted a new test on ground-based midcourse missile interception technology within XinJiang region,the test is successful. Anti-missile photos in Leio's PLA Military Photo, ths.



Probably your informaiton is an improvement over this conducted and reported much earlier:



> *Development of midcourse ABM in China*
> 
> The technology and experience from the successful anti-satellite test using a ground-launched interceptor during January 2007 was immediately applied to current ABM efforts and development.
> China carried out a land-based anti-ballistic missile test on 11 January 2010. The test was exoatmospheric and done in midcourse phase and with a kinetic kill vehicle. China is the second country after US that demonstrated intercepting ballistic missile with a kinetic kill vehicle, the interceptor missile was a SC-19. The sources suggest the system is not operationally deployed as of 2010.
> Rumored midcourse missiles:
> SC-19
> KT-1 [23]
> KT-II
> KT-III



Anti-ballistic missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*****

Post script:

and Thanks. That is a great achievement to be enlisted too. Item no* 26*!












the one source that I quoted is *exoatmospheric* while your source is visible within the atmosphere. 

*Very well done indeed*!


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## Type 052D

shuttler said:


> you mean these ones?



Yes, you just read my mind. BTW is that an JMSDF Helicopter DDH that is burning in the background XD..?

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## Type 052D

@shuttler I believe is the Japanese Helicopter Destroyer! Awesome Animation.

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## LTE-TDD

My god, what they are doing? Try to fly with with made-in-India wing?

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## Soryu

So any info about range of this big plane!? I think that is a important part about capable for transport in big country like China! 


cnleio said:


> Now Y-20 prototype using 4x D-30 , it will change domestic jet engines(WS-20) later.
> Refer to 2011-2012 year old news i read, i think 1st groups of Y-20 still install D-30 Coz 2011 year China ordered 100+ D-30 jet engines from Russia, some for PLAAF H-6 and IL-76 and some for new domestic planes like Y-20.
> 
> Anyway China had prepared 2 steps for military jet engines: 1st imported from Russia, 2nd developing domestic jet engines.And it's good news that new PLAAF J-11B fighters using domestic 2x WS-10A jet engines(pics in Leio's PLA Military Photo thread),PLAAF new J-11B and J-10B all using domestic WS-10A, old J-11 and J-10A still using Russia AL-31F jet engines until they retire.
> (Difference in AL-31F and WS-10A's structure shape, can't replace inside the same aircraft-body.)


 @peaceful: I feel sorry for you in a moment when I was read your pathetic words, so I think, if Mods let your words stay after I done with my works, I would clear your idiot with strong words to knock your brain, but it's done by Mods. So, it's fine.


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## Communist8

IndianTiger said:


> hey gusy its C17 i guess. . Or chinese copied C17 also OMG.



 when India can build its own weapons with 100% Indian components, then you can trash talk China. Until then, get to the back of the line son.

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## cnleio

Soryu said:


> So any info about range of this big plane!? I think that is a important part about capable for transport in big country like China!





> &#36816;-20&#26159;&#19968;&#27454;&#22823;&#22411;&#23485;&#20307;&#20891;&#29992;&#36816;&#36755;&#26426;&#65292;&#30001;4&#20010;&#28065;&#25159;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#25552;&#20379;&#21160;&#21147;&#12290;&#37319;&#29992;&#30340;&#26159;&#20020;&#30028;&#19978;&#21333;&#32764;&#32467;&#26500;&#12290;&#32593;&#19978;&#36164;&#26009;&#26174;&#31034;;&#36816;-20&#26426;&#32452;&#20154;&#21592;&#30001;3&#20154;&#32452;&#25104;&#65292;&#39134;&#26426;&#37319;&#29992;&#20256;&#32479;&#24067;&#23616;&#65292;&#19977;&#28857;&#24335;&#36215;&#33853;&#26550;&#65292;&#21069;&#36215;&#33853;&#26550;&#20004;&#20010;&#36718;&#65292;&#21487;90&#24230;&#20559;&#36716;&#12290;&#26368;&#22823;&#36733;&#37325;&#37327;66&#21544;&#65292;&#26426;&#36523;&#38271;47&#31859;&#65292;&#32764;&#23637;45&#31859;&#65292;&#39640;15&#31859;&#65292;&#26368;&#22823;&#36215;&#39134;&#37325;&#37327;220&#21544;&#12290;&#36347;&#36523;&#20840;&#29699;&#21313;&#22823;&#36816;&#21147;&#26368;&#24378;&#36816;&#36755;&#26426;&#20043;&#21015;&#12290;


The Y-20 parameters,
max load: 66tons, 
body length:47m, 
wing width: 45m,
max height: 15m,
max take-off weight: 220 tons.

Above words came from CCTV Military Talk Show, currently China officials didn't provide any information yet, only admited Y-20 fly.

Just for reference...





Awesome, i like this one (although PSed = =)

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## kawaraj

Great achievement.

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## gambit

With all the specs casually tossed about: Do not confuse payload *WEIGHT* with payload *VOLUME*. For example, any guy here can lift one cubic meter of styrofoam but not the same volume of lead. Optimistic engine capability estimates often inflate payload weight capability as published specs but not payload volume, which usually is rarely published.

Most of the time, airlift capability is more useful with payload volume than with weight, as in more heavily armed troops is more useful than one tank. So if the engine capability is not yet available, then one trip or lifter for those heavily armed troops and a second trip or lifter for that one tank. A different lifter may be capable of carrying both in the same volume because it has a more powerful engine capability.


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## MilSpec

Looks like making of red dawn....


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## Meejee

IND151 said:


> looks like stealthy cargo plane
> 
> what is it?



Whatever it is, the fact is that the pic is photoshopped. The shadows of the planes do nto match the angle of the shadows of the crew.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

some other video clip

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## cirr



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## hk299792458

A HD civilian video of *Y-20*...

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## cnleio

Y-20 CG, standard PLAAF painting

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## gambit

qwerrty said:


> while china busy building that. uncle is working on these..
> 
> i hope china have something similar on paper. need to stop playing catch up


For now, in the area of heavy airlift, China cannot help but play catch up. The technology has been matured by others, notably the US and Soviets/Russia. All that fanciful 'stealth' versions are speculative, even for US as we have other priorities.

For strategic air transport, China does not have anything that can move -- within the crucial 48/72 hrs window -- the US 82nd Airborne equivalent to anywhere on mainland China, and by that I mean not only troops but all of their support including armor. Not only does the PLA do not have a capable strategic heavy lifter, the PLAAF does not have sufficient quantity of whatever is capable anyway. About 30 IL-76MDs? While the US have over 200 C17s, not counting the C-141 and the C-5, the last is freed and used for outsized cargo. Supposedly, the PLA's 99A2 main battle tank cannot be air transported with the current airlift capability. Not only that, because the C-17 came from matured platforms like the -130, -141, and the -5, all with proven global record, from tactical small units to their battlefields to strategic division level transport, the C-17 was given tacit trust by potential customers even before the first delivery.

The Y-20 is about two years behind schedule, which is not to sneer at because the US have our own manufacturing issues, but when coupled with an engine that for now lends the perception that said engine is crippling the Y-20's optimistic capabilities, it will be several more years, possibly a decade, before the Y-20 is truly capable for mass production and the PLA can be rightfully admitted to an exclusive club of heavy strategic airlift capable militaries.

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## 帅的一匹

A decade ready for induction? Get a life any where else. 3 years from now is more than enough, we can't wait too
Long.


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## gambit

wanglaokan said:


> A decade ready for induction? Get a life any where else. 3 years from now is more than enough, we can't wait too
> Long.


I take it you speak from extensive personal experience in aviation?


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## Type 052D

Unfourtantly, gambit is correct about the importance of airbornce troops in combat. Look at the Panama offensive in 1989.


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## muse

I hope PAC and PAF can use and contribute to this aircraft's future development, even if as license supply manufacturer - I think this ship has tremendous potential - very proud of and for this achievement by Chinese engineers and industry.

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## Kompromat

muse said:


> I hope PAC and PAF can use and contribute to this aircraft's future development, even if as license supply manufacturer - I think this ship has tremendous potential - very proud of and for this achievement by Chinese engineers and industry.



Do, you think PAF needs such a heavy lift air craft?


----------



## muse

Yes, absolutely - when you "such" -- today, an AL-Khalid weighs 48 tons -- The Max payload on this ship is 66tons and this ship will never unless a one way trip, be operating on Max load. 

Would you also be very surprised if a development of this ship may include Turbo props?

And when I say contribute, I mean the manufacture of or assembly of parts - I'm looking towars an integration between user of the platform

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## Luftwaffe

These could be the replacement of older C-130s post 2020. The way western market is neglecting Pakistan and Pakistan's treatment with them, only Chinese option would be left. I don't like to say but Pakistan could face some sort of sanctions post 2014-2015 when US starts leaving afghanistan. C-130 is a great platform but if you see Pakistan's poor switch on-off relationship with US a sane decision would be to switch to alternative. 

Y-20 would be able to carry twice tonnage then C-130E/H, PAF can safely replace 5-6 of them for 3 Y-20s in the future.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Aeronaut said:


> Do, you think PAF needs such a heavy lift air craft?




Y-20 will allow to reinforce an corner of Pakistan with heavy weight military equipments such tank, artilleries...back and fore without the need to refuel. , it will enhance strategic Pakistanis strategic reach in the region.

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## Zarvan

(CNN) -- Official Chinese media have hailed the successful test flight of China's first domestically made jumbo air freighter.
Few details were released about the flight, made Saturday, but the test indicates China's ambitions to add a heavy freighter to its capabilities and match better against traditional air powers, Russia and the United States.
READ: China lands first jet on aircraft carrier
Other large air freighters already flying include the Russian-built Ilyushin Il-76, the U.S.-made Boeing C-17 Globemaster III and, largest of them all, the Antonov An-225 -- also Russian.
The four-engine Yun-20, or Transport-20, is a huge, multi-function airfreighter that can perform various long distance air transport tasks targeting cargo and passengers, the state-run Xinhua News Agency said.
READ: Jet sale boosts China's rivalry with Airbus, Boeing
"The successful maiden flight of the Y-20 is important in promoting China's economic and national defense buildup, as well as improving its emergency response and humanitarian aid abilities," the Ministry of National Defense said on its website.
The flight boosts China's presence as a global aircraft manufacturer as well as its military capabilities.
"A genuine strategic air power must possess a strong power projection capability, which is highly reliant on large aircraft, namely a strategic air freighter and a strategic bomber," said Wang Yanan, deputy editor in chief at Aerospace Knowledge magazine and a military analyst, in a China Daily report.
Late last year, a domestic order of 50 Chinese-built C919 commercial jets provided further evidence of China's growing stake in the aviation industry.
The C919 is China's answer to the Airbus A320 and Boeing 737 -- a single-aisle, 168-seat, narrow-body commercial liner produced by Chinese state-run aircraft manufacturer Comac (Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China).
Little is known about the Y-20, with a China Daily report stating the aircraft is believed to have been developed by the Xi'an Aircraft Industry, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp. of China, the major military aircraft manufacturer.
The same report indicated the plane had a payload of around 66 metric tons, big enough to transport combat tanks.
According to China Daily, the official codename of the aircraft is Kunpeng, named after a legendary bird in Chinese mythology that can fly thousands of kilometers.
The Y-20 will continue to undergo experiments and test flights, local media reported.
READ: What's in store for China this year?
China's new super cargo jet takes to the skies - CNN.com


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## itaskol

Aeronaut said:


> Do, you think PAF needs such a heavy lift air craft?



it can be build as plattform for larger awacs. more effective than the current ZDK 03.

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## S10

Y-9 will be the counterpart to American's C-130J, while Y-20 will be filling in C-17's role. However, both will not be as capable as their American competition at the time of introduction. Engine continues to be an issue holding back the military.

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## 帅的一匹

Any one please give WS20 expected performance specification?


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## middlekingdom

Engines are still a big big problem.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

middlekingdom said:


> Engines are still a big big problem.



can we put civilian engines instead?


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## qwerrty

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> can we put civilian engines instead?



yes, but you'll hear a lot of bitching from uncle. they won't stop continue selling to china, because china is the second or third largest aviation market. it's just anonying.. 
those engines equiped on vintatge 747 and airbus palnes are much more advanced than the russian PS-90A engine that they plan to use on their next gen military transport plane

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## muse

Engine development has not kept pace with the incredible developments within the aviation industry -- Got it - but be fair, it's the nature of the technologies involved that their development has not been as fast as that in avionics or materials -- but lets not let that obscure or mar this achievement -- better engines(more power, greater efficiency) are in the works, they are not the measure of this or other achievements - need better engines, OK, got it - lets move on.

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## cnleio

Y-X cockpit simulator


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## cnleio

Y-20 AEWC aircraft CG:

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## Type 052D

gambit said:


> For now, in the area of heavy airlift, China cannot help but play catch up. The technology has been matured by others, notably the US and Soviets/Russia. All that fanciful 'stealth' versions are speculative, even for US as we have other priorities.
> 
> For strategic air transport, China does not have anything that can move -- within the crucial 48/72 hrs window -- the US 82nd Airborne equivalent to anywhere on mainland China, and by that I mean not only troops but all of their support including armor. Not only does the PLA do not have a capable strategic heavy lifter, the PLAAF does not have sufficient quantity of whatever is capable anyway. About 30 IL-76MDs? While the US have over 200 C17s, not counting the C-141 and the C-5, the last is freed and used for outsized cargo. Supposedly, the PLA's 99A2 main battle tank cannot be air transported with the current airlift capability. Not only that, because the C-17 came from matured platforms like the -130, -141, and the -5, all with proven global record, from tactical small units to their battlefields to strategic division level transport, the C-17 was given tacit trust by potential customers even before the first delivery.
> 
> The Y-20 is about two years behind schedule, which is not to sneer at because the US have our own manufacturing issues, but when coupled with an engine that for now lends the perception that said engine is crippling the Y-20's optimistic capabilities, it will be several more years, possibly a decade, before the Y-20 is truly capable for mass production and the PLA can be rightfully admitted to an exclusive club of heavy strategic airlift capable militaries.


 
The Y-20 is not designed as a C-17 to begin with. Its size is only about 80% of that of the C-17. With China's domestic WS-20 high-bypass turbofan engine, the air lifter is able to carry 66 tons and fly 4400 km without in-flight refueling. The maximum take-of weight is 220+ tons. In comparison, C-17 can carry a maximum of 77.5 tons with a MTOW of 265 tons. With current engines, the Y-20 is estimated to carry 50-55 tons.

The Y-20 is not a C-17 clone, because their structures are fundamentally different: Y-20 has a wings-above-fuselage design, while C-17 has a wings-through-body design.

The Y-20 is not a IL-76 clone either: the Y-20 has supercritical airfoils, which reduce drag and save fuel. It also has a wider body to accommodate larger volume of cargo. The IL-76 and IL-476 have neither.

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## J-20

find it at military photo a thread about Iranian stealth fighter

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## gambit

Type 052D said:


> The Y-20 is not designed as a C-17 to begin with. Its size is only about 80% of that of the C-17. With China's domestic WS-20 high-bypass turbofan engine, the air lifter is able to carry 66 tons and fly 4400 km without in-flight refueling. The maximum take-of weight is 220+ tons. In comparison, C-17 can carry a maximum of 77.5 tons with a MTOW of 265 tons. With current engines, the Y-20 is estimated to carry 50-55 tons.
> 
> The Y-20 is not a C-17 clone, because their structures are fundamentally different: Y-20 has a wings-above-fuselage design, while C-17 has a wings-through-body design.
> 
> The Y-20 is not a IL-76 clone either: the Y-20 has supercritical airfoils, which reduce drag and save fuel. It also has a wider body to accommodate larger volume of cargo. The IL-76 and IL-476 have neither.


What I said was not a comparison but about the need for a heavy airlifter in general. So when there is an undisputed leader in heavy airlift -- US -- there is no choice but to bring in specific examples.


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## Akasa

J-20 said:


> find it at military photo a thread about Iranian stealth fighter



I guess it's even easier to be jealous, which was probably what drove the author to create this compilation.

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## qwerrty

half of those planes in the pic are licensed manufacturing. the rests easily replaced..

A400,C2,KC390,MTA.........c17
KFX..............f35
hermes, anca............reaper/predator
too many uav helis.....
kfx,jap atdx, amca, t-50.............f-22
eads talarion................rq4
petit duc, neurons, taranis........x45
gripen, rfale,ef-2000 ..........lavi

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## qwerrty



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## Type 052D

@SinoSolider Let them underestimate China's Aviation sucesses.


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## Dandpatta

To those who say the Chinese have copied - (and hell they do a damn good job on it), can we also go back in history and look at the number of fighter a/c of the 1st / 2nd WW that all looked similar ? We had US/Brit/Germ/Jap fighters that had a similar silhouette - if not copied.


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## Aegis DDG

I respect the Chinese Aviation Industry. They made major gains over the years.


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## Mitro

Don't Worry Brother i also have some time to waste




[/url] free image hosting[/IMG]



SinoSoldier said:


> I guess it's even easier to be jealous, which was probably what drove the author to create this compilation.


----------



## scholseys

Czar786 said:


> Don't Worry Brother i also have some time to waste
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/url] free image hosting[/IMG]


the american bicycle andthe kid's color pencils are made in china


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## Mitro

You are right about color pencils but bicycle is american made.



aazidane said:


> the american bicycle andthe kid's color pencils are made in china


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## Akasa

Czar786 said:


> Don't Worry Brother i also have some time to waste
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/url] free image hosting[/IMG]



Humans have 99% similar nucleotide configuration in their DNA. So perhaps we are all reverse engineered off of our parents and we should get sued for copying their DNA.

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## Dandpatta

Donation said:


> What is your opinion on independence movement in Honk Kong??? Have you notice the Hong Kong resident refer China mainlander as lucust??? Do you think military action has to take place by the CCP to stop the movement???



Remain on topic of the thread. Don't divert this thread into something that has NOTHING to do with Y-20 heavy transport. I have an answer to your question, but I will refuse to answer on this thread.

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## CaptainProton

Congratulations to the people of China to new aircraft. It looks nice. Now you can build your own An 124 Ruslan

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## Mitro

Thats what i am trying to say if somebody invented the wheel we don't have to invent it we just have to use it and thats what china is doing and it is doing great and it is improving the the new wheel concept too.



SinoSoldier said:


> Humans have 99% similar nucleotide configuration in their DNA. So perhaps we are all reverse engineered off of our parents and we should get sued for copying their DNA.

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## sweetgrape

Today, Y-20 show itself in new color.

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## cirr

Two taxing runs with a nw coat of paint&#65306;

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## shuttler

Chinese developed plane engine almost complete

Updated: 2013-02-24 19:45 ( chinadaily.com.cn) 

Chinese scientists and technicians will soon complete an indigenous, large aircraft engine that can equip the Y-20, the country's first domestically developed strategic airlifter, Chinese media quoted a military expert as saying on Sunday.

Qiao Liang, a professor at the Air Force Command Institute of the People's Liberation Army, told Science Times that the prototype of the Y-20, which conducted its first test flight on Jan 26, is currently equipped with four Russian D-30 turbofan engines, and the development of an indigenous engine is "approaching success".

After being installed with the domestically developed engine, the payload of the Y-20 will increase by around 10 metric tons, he said.

The Y-20's prototype has a maximum payload of 66 tons and a maximum take-off weight of more than 200 tons, according to reports.

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## Pandora

Echo_419 said:


> It is still no match for Somalian millitary might
> 
> On topic
> Congratz



Height of jealousy. People like you can never be happy with others achievements.

Congrats China on huge leap forward in terms of aircraft manufacturing.

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## Echo_419

smuhs1 said:


> Height of jealousy. People like you can never be happy with others achievements.
> 
> Congrats China on huge leap forward in terms of aircraft manufacturing.



Abe sale Mazak kar raha tha Somalia has not even a stable country manufacturing this is something very few countries have achived 

I apologise if my comments have hurtled anyone


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## Pandora

Echo_419 said:


> Abe sale Mazak kar raha tha Somalia has not even a stable country manufacturing this is something very few countries have achived
> 
> I apologise if my comments have hurtled anyone



Apologies if didn't understand it properly but comment seemed very sarcastic that's why i said that.


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## Echo_419

smuhs1 said:


> Apologies if didn't understand it properly but comment seemed very sarcastic that's why i said that.




Koi nahi yaraa 
Sab changa hai

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## LIAO

sweetgrape said:


> Today, Y-20 show itself in new color.



chinese lacks aesthetic sense!!! Why did chinese paint the Y-20 that putrid colour?????


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## khanboy007

cirr said:


> Two taxing runs with a nw coat of paint&#65306;



IT LOOKS LOVELY and it also reminded me of this legend in PAF with the same paint job

the B-57 canberra

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## mughaljee

Congratulation Brothers.

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## shuttler

LIAO said:


> chinese lacks aesthetic sense!!! Why did chinese paint the Y-20 that putrid colour?????



if it is for commercial flights that you can say that or otherwise all your B/S
also it is still in its flight trials


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## LIAO

shuttler said:


> if it is for commercial flights that you can say that or otherwise all your B/S
> also it is still in its flight trials



chinese that took a leaf from U.S. army's book are now doing improper imitation that produces the reverse effect.

I must say I find it unacceptable.


----------



## Jguo

Just to clarify:

The yellowish color, we have been seeing on many test planes, is a cerium-enhanced e-coat paint or primer layer. E-coat is an emulsion of organic resins and de-ionized water, which is in a stable condition. The e-coat solution also comprises of some solvent and some ionic components. 

The dark grey color now on Y-20 is the real primer. This color is for a relative dark color paint in the future.

Btw first post

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## shuttler

LIAO said:


> chinese that took a leaf from U.S. army's book are now doing improper imitation that produces the reverse effect.
> 
> I must say I find it unacceptable.



as brain-washed as yourself you should write to the pentagon and tell the yanks to file a law suit against us!

Y-20 is up flying and testing well and it will soon be equipped with our engine. Good going China!


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## Johny D

The Chinese Air Force launched the Y-20 for the first time on Saturday (as reported by AFP), an event the Chinese government press heralded as &#8220;a significant milestone&#8221; that would &#8220;enhance &#8230; global power projection.&#8221;

The Y-20 looks a lot like the Boeing-built C-17 used by the U.S. Air Force, but critics say it falls short of the Globemaster III&#8217;s performance in a number of respects. Andrei Chang, editor-in-chief of the Canadian-based Kanwa Defense Review, said that the Y-20 was technologically inferior to other military transport planes. True figures for the Y-20&#8217;s maximum load and flying range were likely to be lower than those cited in state media due to the plane&#8217;s reliance on a &#8220;very old&#8221; Russian-designed engine.

&#8220;(The engine&#8217;s) oil consumption is very bad, it wastes a lot of fuel,&#8221; he said, pointing out that because of noise some developed countries have banned aircraft using it from landing, threatening its potential appearance at European air shows. (And that reality wouldn&#8217;t help it&#8217;s foreign military sales effort or international reputation.)

Chang also noted that the C-17&#8217;s long-range performance is possible because of the airplane&#8217;s composite materials, the manufacture of which the Chinese have struggled with to date. And the Y-20 was likely to take at least another five years to enter operational service, he added.

But the Chinese only want to talk about capabilites. The Y-20 has a maximum payload of 66 tons, which it can carry as far as 2,700 miles, the China Daily said, and with 55 tons on board it could fly from western China to Cairo.

It is big enough to hold the heaviest tank used by China&#8217;s army, the paper added, quoting a military expert as saying that &#8220;the heavy air freighters will ensure that we are able to safeguard our interests overseas.&#8221;

The Y-20 also allows the Chinese to end their dependence on Russian-made Il-76s for their transport needs.


Read more: http://defensetech.org/2013/01/28/china-debuts-homegrown-c-17-clone/#ixzz2Maj8k7db
Defense.org


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## LIAO

JD_In said:


> The Chinese Air Force launched the Y-20 for the first time on Saturday (as reported by AFP), an event the Chinese government press heralded as &#8220;a significant milestone&#8221; that would &#8220;enhance &#8230; global power projection.&#8221;
> 
> The Y-20 looks a lot like the Boeing-built C-17 used by the U.S. Air Force, but critics say it falls short of the Globemaster III&#8217;s performance in a number of respects. Andrei Chang, editor-in-chief of the Canadian-based Kanwa Defense Review, said that the Y-20 was technologically inferior to other military transport planes. True figures for the Y-20&#8217;s maximum load and flying range were likely to be lower than those cited in state media due to the plane&#8217;s reliance on a &#8220;very old&#8221; Russian-designed engine.
> 
> *&#8220;(The engine&#8217;s) oil consumption is very bad, it wastes a lot of fuel,&#8221; he said, pointing out that because of noise some developed countries have banned aircraft using it from landing, threatening its potential appearance at European air shows. (And that reality wouldn&#8217;t help it&#8217;s foreign military sales effort or international reputation.)*
> 
> Chang also noted that the C-17&#8217;s long-range performance is possible because of the airplane&#8217;s composite materials, the manufacture of which the Chinese have struggled with to date. And the Y-20 was likely to take at least another five years to enter operational service, he added.
> 
> But the Chinese only want to talk about capabilites. The Y-20 has a maximum payload of 66 tons, which it can carry as far as 2,700 miles, the China Daily said, and with 55 tons on board it could fly from western China to Cairo.
> 
> It is big enough to hold the heaviest tank used by China&#8217;s army, the paper added, quoting a military expert as saying that &#8220;the heavy air freighters will ensure that we are able to safeguard our interests overseas.&#8221;
> 
> The Y-20 also allows the Chinese to end their dependence on Russian-made Il-76s for their transport needs.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://defensetech.org/2013/01/28/china-debuts-homegrown-c-17-clone/#ixzz2Maj8k7db
> Defense.org



Please watch for exciting new engine and additional product lines coming soon!


----------



## Zabaniyah

IND151 said:


> looks like stealthy cargo plane
> 
> what is it?





Meejee said:


> Whatever it is, the fact is that the pic is photoshopped. The shadows of the planes do nto match the angle of the shadows of the crew.



Lockheeds New STOL Airlifter Design:
IMAGES: Lockheed's stealth C-130 successor revealed - The DEW Line

@topic: Well done China. May you achieve more heights

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## Luftwaffe

LIAO said:


> Please watch for exciting new engine and additional product lines coming soon!



The Article is poorly written, seems it is written from someone sitting in the drawing room, he has no idea what he is talking about neither has he the complete information and profile on Y-20. The Aircraft has flown a few times and here self critics without knowing any internal systems declare themselves to know everything regarding Y-20. Now mr chang needs to be asked how do you know composites have not been used.

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## shuttler

LIAO said:


> &#22909;&#21862;&#65292;&#25105;&#33521;&#35821;&#27604;&#36739;&#24046;&#65292;&#27809;&#26377;&#30475;&#21040;&#8221;&#24213;&#28422;&#8221;&#30340;&#23383;&#30524;&#21862;&#65288;&#20320;&#20063;&#21487;&#20197;&#30475;&#21040;&#25105;&#30340;&#33521;&#35821;&#19981;&#26159;&#29399;&#29399;&#32763;&#35793;&#30340;&#65292;&#23601;&#26159;&#29983;&#30828;&#20302;&#32423;&#38169;&#35823;&#30340;&#65289;&#12290;&#19978;&#38754;&#26377;&#20301;&#24052;&#38081;&#20804;&#24351;&#22312;&#35843;&#20355;&#24179;&#31171;&#22827;&#21602;&#65292;&#35201;&#35828;&#24179;&#31171;&#22827;&#65292;&#26368;&#36817;&#26159;&#26377;&#21517;&#30340;&#20013;&#22269;&#33322;&#27597;&#19981;&#33021;&#25269;&#25239;&#8220;&#39281;&#21644;&#25915;&#20987;&#8221;&#65292;&#20320;&#33021;&#19981;&#33021;&#29992;&#33521;&#35821;&#21435;&#21644;&#37027;&#20301;&#20804;&#24351;&#35828;&#65292;&#35753;&#20182;&#21435;&#38382;&#38382;&#24352;&#24179;&#31171;&#22827;&#20808;&#29983;&#21457;&#29616;&#21738;&#20010;&#22269;&#23478;&#30340;&#33322;&#27597;&#20135;&#20986;&#26469;&#65292;&#32844;&#33021;&#26159;&#21435;&#25239;&#8220;&#39281;&#21644;&#25915;&#20987;&#8221;&#30340;&#65311;&#21734;&#65292;&#21035;&#24536;&#20102;&#65292;&#24352;&#24179;&#31171;&#22827;&#20808;&#29983;&#20107;&#20808;&#20551;&#35774;&#20102;&#8220;&#20551;&#22914;&#27809;&#26377;&#23545;&#33328;&#25915;&#20987;&#33021;&#21147;&#30340;&#36797;&#23425;&#33328;&#8221;&#65292;&#35831;&#38382;&#20182;&#26159;&#24590;&#20040;&#30830;&#23450;&#20013;&#22269;&#29983;&#20135;&#20986;&#30340;&#33322;&#27597;&#19981;&#26159;&#25343;&#26469;&#8220;&#23545;&#33328;&#25915;&#20987;&#8221;&#65292;&#32780;&#26159;&#20854;&#36827;&#21475;&#26102;&#20505;&#30340;&#20511;&#21475;&#8220;&#20844;&#28023;&#36172;&#22330;&#8221;&#29992;&#30340;&#21602;&#65311;





> Well, my English is relatively poor, do not see the word "primer" (you can see my English is not my translation is stiff lower error). Above bit of bar iron brothers ridicule flat bald husband, to say flat bald Cardiff, recently famous Chinese aircraft carrier can not resist the "saturation attack", you can use English to go and the brother said, so he went to ask Zhang Ping bald Mr. Cardiff which country the aircraft carrier production functions is to go against the "saturation attack"? Oh, do not forget the Mr. Zhang Ping bald husband prior assumption that "if there is no the Liaoning ship-to-ship attack capability", what he is how to determine the the produce aircraft carrier is not used to "attack" on the ship, but when their import an excuse High Seas Casino "with it?



google translation.




Most indians talk in their language on other threads are not penalised. 
You have to be careful. You may get an infraction for posting in Chinese.

&#33521;&#25991;&#19981;&#22909;&#19981;&#35201;&#32039;&#65281;Try you best to write in English. This platform is good for English practice.

Regarding Liaoning, I think this thread is about Y-20. The moderators of PDF are not too kind on us for talking other subjects not relevant to the the threads. Off-topic postings may get penalised or a ban.

You may search and find threads about our aircraft carriers such as Liaoning and post there. 

This is one of many threads about Liaoning: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/222096-peek-life-chinese-aircraft-carrier-liaoning.html. You can also find at the bottom part of the page a section for "other similar threads" which guides your browsing / posting on related topics there

Have a happy discussion on this Pakistani Defense Forum!


----------



## Sasquatch

Luftwaffe said:


> The Article is poorly written, seems it is written from someone sitting in the drawing room, he has no idea what he is talking about neither has he the complete information and profile on Y-20. The Aircraft has flown a few times and here self critics without knowing any internal systems declare themselves to know everything regarding Y-20. Now mr chang needs to be asked how do you know composites have not been used.




It was by Andrei Pinkov who downplays most of China's military achievements and encourages to buy Russian, you should see some of his articles.

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## Sasquatch

shuttler said:


> as
> Y-20 is up flying and testing well and it will soon be equipped with our engine. Good going China!



The D30 engines will be used until the WS20 is ready sometime in 2016, and the couple more il76's will be ordered.


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## shuttler

Hu Songshan said:


> The D30 engines will be used until the *WS20* is ready sometime in 2016, and the couple more il76's will be ordered.



*WS-18*&#65281;?


Here D30Kp2, Russian engines are installed on Y-20:


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## Luftwaffe

Hu Songshan said:


> It was by Andrei Pinkov who downplays most of China's military achievements and encourages to buy Russian, you should see some of his articles.



I am sure russians are feeling terrible if not all of them since with such a positive development more orders for il-76s are going to be slashed or already have been slashed, China can wait 4 years more without ordering a larger fleet of il-76.

Even a 16 year old kid can write a better Article than andrei pinkov.

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## sweetgrape

More pictures of Y20 coming.

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## Fsjal

Wouldn't this be the largest aircraft China made?


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## animelive

Except the paint job, everything looks fine. Good job by China

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## Beast

LIAO said:


> Please watch for exciting new engine and additional product lines coming soon!



I think CCTV must have watch Andrew chang news. After he talks bad about Y-20. CCTV come out to rebute of his rubbish of Y-20 being obsolete...

Unfortunately it's in Chinese only. It talks about Y-20 using large number of advance manufacturing method.
æ°é»ç´æ*é´20130321ï¼ç¬å®¶æ*ç§å½äº§å¤§åè¿è¾æºè¿-20 - YouTube

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## cnleio



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## tranquilium

animelive said:


> Except the paint job, everything looks fine. Good job by China



Please don't mention the paint job. Sometimes I think the Chinese army is way too hang up on this "utility above all else" idea. I mean, it is a good philosophy and all, but would it kill them to paint their toys better?

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## sweetgrape



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## muse

Please post more images and information about this ship - I can't get enough of this ship.

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## cnleio

China WS-20 jet engine test for Y-20

left WS-20 , right D-30





Mockup,Y-20 with D-30 and Y-20 with WS-20 jet engines

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## qwerrty

cnleio said:


> China WS-20 jet engine test for Y-20
> 
> left WS-20 , right D-30



tiny cropped pic is suspicious. picture could be ps-90 engine tested on il-76.


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## ChineseTiger1986

qwerrty said:


> tiny cropped pic is suspicious. picture could be ps-90 engine tested on il-76.



That fat engine is indeed WS-20, since PS-90 is also slim like D-30.

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## Akasa

cnleio said:


> China WS-20 jet engine test for Y-20
> 
> left WS-20 , right D-30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mockup,Y-20 with D-30 and Y-20 with WS-20 jet engines



That WS-20 photo looks very photoshopped.


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## peaceful

qwerrty said:


> tiny cropped pic is suspicious. picture could be ps-90 engine tested on il-76.



This is classified information, you complain it is not HD with full background?

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## ChineseTiger1986

SinoSoldier said:


> That WS-20 photo looks very photoshopped.



It has been confirmed. 

?"??"??????:???-20??,?????? - ???? - ???

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## Genesis

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It has been confirmed.
> 
> ?"??"??????:???-20??,?????? - ???? - ???



One small step for the Chinese, one giant foot in your @$$ to the US. 

So since Tiananmen, Kobe tell me how my @$$ taste.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Genesis said:


> One small step for the Chinese, one giant foot in your @$$ to the US.
> 
> So since Tiananmen, Kobe tell me how my @$$ taste.



Do you think US gonna explode if China keeps developing?

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## Genesis

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Do you think US gonna explode if China keeps developing?



No, but if they keep importing Chinese goods, they might

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## cnleio

SinoSoldier said:


> That WS-20 photo looks very photoshopped.



WS-20 test on IL-76

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## sweetgrape



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## cnleio

China Y-20 ransport aircraft(new painting) ground test

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## cnleio

India defense said:


> nice copy paste


LOL ... the money still leave in Chinese packet, not foreigner's and improve domestic industry. It's a simple principle but most ppl in this world do not know they just buy "made in China" from a successful country.

The rich get rich, the poor still get poor. The wise get more intelligence, the stupid get more fool.

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## Sinnerman108

cnleio said:


> LOL ... the money still leave in Chinese packet, not foreigner's and improve domestic industry. It's a simple principle but most ppl in this world do not know they just buy "made in China" from a successful country.
> 
> The rich get rich, the poor still get poor. The wise get more intelligence, the stupid get more fool.



Excellent post my friend.

and for everyone else to read and understand why China IS the superpower and the way China's power works.

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## Nishan_101

Where is Y-9????


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## Luftwaffe

Nishan_101 said:


> Where is Y-9????



In the hanger No? 

Good question I am also wondering News about Y-9 and Y-9 based MPA, Y-9 was suppose to be future replacement of Y-8 platform. 

@hk299792458, any latest on Transport Y-9/Y-9 based MPA


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## Beast

sweetgrape said:


>



It is not WS-20. The engine tested on IL-76 testbed is the WS-10A and the pictures are old.

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## cnleio



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## sweetgrape

The second test flight in April 20.


































third flight also finished, pictures will flow out later.

Hope the Y20 can join army as soon as possible, we need them, pray for people in sichuan earthquake

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## Luftwaffe

Where is Henri K. hk299792458 I asked him about Y-9 Transport and Y-9MPA No latest information?


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## Genesis

Man China could really use this in a conflict with India at the border. This would allow paratroopers and supplies to be constantly dropped into the war zone and give China a significant advantage.

Though I understand this is a 10 year 300 units kinda deal.
@Luftwaffe

The latest info I know is that it is already part of the Chinese armed forces as of this moment. With more on the way of course.






This pretty much says in order of picture.

First dimension of the transport

The max length of the cargo 16 meters

max load 8.2 tons

last one is paratroopers and how they would be seated.






The different types of planes that the Y-9 could be modified into.


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## Pinnacle

Excellent ........
Great Job done China..........

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## hk299792458

Luftwaffe said:


> In the hanger No?
> 
> Good question I am also wondering News about Y-9 and Y-9 based MPA, Y-9 was suppose to be future replacement of Y-8 platform.
> 
> @hk299792458, any latest on Transport Y-9/Y-9 based MPA



Y-9 (at least one) has been used for aide transport in Sichuan, you can see it on the left of the KJ-200 used there...






And a copper of them are in service in PLAAF...











GX-6 is visible in CFTE through Google Earth

Henri K.

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## nomi007

WHAT IS NATO REPORING NAME OF Y-20


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## shuttler

Beast said:


> It is not WS-20. The engine tested on IL-76 testbed is the WS-10A and the pictures are old.



the words in the pic say WS 20! The yellow engine in the small pic looked more like a WS 20&#65306;

This is WS-20:







This is WS-10A













nomi007 said:


> WHAT IS NATO REPORING NAME OF Y-20



who cares when we have our nonmenclature

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## ChineseTiger1986

shuttler said:


>



That's the AL-31, this is the WS-10.

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## Argus Panoptes

nomi007 said:


> WHAT IS NATO REPORING NAME OF Y-20



It will probably keep the Candid name with a letter suffix when it enters service.


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## shuttler

@ChineseTiger1986: is this a WS-20 in testing beneath the wing?


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## ChineseTiger1986

This is the WS-20 testing on an IL-76.

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## shuttler

This is &#38271;&#27743; &#65288;Changjiang&#65289; 1000A - a propective engine to be tested and installed in our heavy lifting planes:

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## shuttler

*Y-20 gives air power a push*

Chinadaily

Updated: 2013-01-28 07:50
By Zhao Lei (China Daily)











*Successful maiden flight important in strengthening national defense
*
The successful maiden flight of the Y-20, China's first domestically developed heavy air freighter, marks a step in the country's goal of building a strategic air power, according to military experts and observers.

"A genuine strategic air power must possess a strong power projection capability, which is highly reliant on large aircraft, namely a strategic air freighter and a strategic bomber," Wang Yanan, deputy editor-in-chief at Aerospace Knowledge magazine and a military analyst, said.

"The long-range power projection capability of the Chinese air force still lags behind. But the Y-20 means we have made strides toward building a strategic air power."

He said the breakthrough in the technology of large military aircraft will substantially accelerate the development of China's aviation industry and boost the drive to modernize the People's Liberation Army.

On Saturday, China conducted a test flight of the Y-20, a large, multi-function air freighter that can perform various long-distance transportation tasks.

"The successful maiden flight of the Y-20 is important in promoting China's economic and national defense buildup, as well as improving its emergency response and humanitarian aid abilities," the Ministry of National Defense said on its website on Saturday, adding that more experiments and test flights will be scheduled.

The official codename of the aircraft is Kunpeng, named after a legendary bird in Chinese mythology that can fly thousands of kilometers.

The jumbo air freighter is believed to have been developed by Xi'an Aircraft Industry, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China, the major military aircraft manufacturer.

Large strategic air freighters in active service around the world include the Antonov An-225, the Ilyushin Il-76 and the Boeing C-17 Globemaster III.

The Y-20, with a crew of three, has a maximum payload of 66 metric tons and a maximum takeoff weight of more than 200 tons, China Youth Daily quoted military sources as saying. The high payload means the aircraft can fly the heaviest tank of the PLA - the 58-ton Type-99A2.

The length of the Y-20 is 47 meters and its wingspan is 50 meters, the report said.

*An important addition*

Sources said the aircraft began to be developed in the early 1990s. In 2006 it was listed in a national mid- and long-term technological development plan. In 2009, a senior executive at the Aviation Industry Corp of China told Chinese media the design of a "200-ton military aircraft" had been completed and production of prototypes had begun.

Photos of the Y-20 began to circulate on Chinese military websites on Dec 24, leading to speculation that the air freighter would soon conduct its first test flight.

Three days later, Yang Yujun, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, confirmed at a news conference that China is "developing a large transport aircraft on our own to improve the capability of air transport".

Once in service, *the Y-20 will significantly strengthen the PLA's long-range transport capability,* which has been plagued for many years by the absence of a domestically developed strategic air freighter.

*The PLA air force now has a transport fleet that mainly consists of the Y-7, the Y-8 and their variants.
*
The Y-7 is designed and made based on the Soviet-designed Antonov An-24 series, and the Y-8 is based on the Antonov An-12. Both have relatively light payloads and cannot carry heavy-duty armored vehicles and tanks.

There is also an unknown but presumably small number of Ilyushin Il-76 large air freighters in the air force, enabling the PLA to conduct strategic transport and disaster-relief missions.

In 2008, large transport aircraft from the PLA air force took part in rescue and relief missions after a devastating earthquake in Southwest China. Three years later, the air force also sent four Ilyushin Il-76s to strife-torn Libya to rescue stranded Chinese citizens.

The missions have proven the importance of long-range aircraft and also exposed the embarrassing fact that China still lacks enough strategic air freighters, military experts said.

"The Ilyushin Il-76 was developed by the former Soviet Union in the 1970s and has largely lagged behind in terms of technology and functions, but China has no other choice but to continue buying it," Peng Yue, a military observer, wrote in Ta Kung Pao, a Hong Kong-based newspaper. He noted that *the unreliable supply of Ilyushin Il-76 from Russia has constrained China's production of a large, airborne early-warning and control system, which is installed on a modified Ilyushin IL-76 airframe*.

*Compared with the Russian airplane, the Y-20 is much more technically advanced in almost all areas, but due to the comparatively conservative aerodynamic design and the lack of a domestically developed engine, it still cannot rival the US' Boeing C-17 Globemaster III, experts said.*

"*The United States Air Force has more than 350 large air freighters with a minimum payload of 50 tons, while the Russian Air Force has 368 strategic air freighters.* I think the biggest gap between the PLA and them in terms of conventional arsenal lies in the strategic transport capability," Peng said.

*He said the Y-20 will not only improve the Chinese military's power projection and rapid deployment capabilities but also provide a reliable platform for domestically developed early warning and control, aerial refueling, and anti-submarine aircraft.
*
"*The strategic importance of the Y-20 is even bigger than the J-20 stealth fighter jet and the aircraft carrier*," he said.
Carrying a payload of up to 55 tons, the Y-20 is able of flying to destinations 4,500 km away from China, such as Guam in the western Pacific Ocean or Egypt, and if accompanied by a tanker aircraft it can even fly 9,600 km to Angola in southern Africa or Sydney in Australia, military analysts said.

"*Our air force needs at least 100 strategic air freighters such as the Y-20* because transporting a brigade combat group alone needs 80 to 100 large air freighters," Wang at Aerospace Knowledge said. *"If the PLA air force has 300 Y-20s, then its strategic transport capability will compete with that of the US air force."*

*Opportunities abound*

In addition to its military implications, the Y-20 will bring many other benefits to China, said Liang Fang, a professor of strategy at the PLA National Defense University.

"Along with the expansion of our national interest, the heavy air freighters will ensure that we are able to safeguard our interests overseas," she said. "With them, we can transport our people or large equipment to farther destinations and retrieve them."

* Du Wenlong, a senior researcher for the PLA Academy of Military Sciences, said: "The development of heavy transport aircraft, which is a cutting-edge equipment featuring advanced technology, will inject momentum to many related fields such as material science, engine research and manufacturing sectors, thus eventually upgrading the entire aviation industry of China*."
Chinese military fans are also excited about the test flight of the Y-20.

*"Good news has come again and again over the past two months. First we heard about the test flight of the J-31 stealth fighter jet, then the landing and takeoff of the J-15 on our aircraft carrier, and now we embrace the birth of the Y-20,"* said Qu Renming, a white-collar worker in Beijing. "The only concern for military fans is when can the Y-20 use our domestically developed engine and enter into service."

*Wang added: "I think the test flights and other experiments with the Y-20 will last at least two years. And after the tests are finished, at least 10 aircraft will be manufactured each year."*

zhaolei@chinadaily.com.cn

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## sweetgrape

Today, Y20 took its fourth test flight, last about 2 hours.

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## jamesseo89

I think its high time for Chinese to come up with:
Y-9 similar to C-130J-30s
Y-X similar to CN-295s
Y-X similar to CN-235s

As they will going to have multi purpose use Like Transport of Goods, troops, AEW&Cs, MPA, ELINT/SIGNT and other roles.

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## HongWu



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## jamesseo89

I also had a similar wish that PAF should acquired about 4 A-330MRTT rather than IL-76/78 for refueling and acquire about 11 IL-76/78 for transport purpose but now they should acquire about:
11 Y-20 heavy transport aircraft
21 Y-9 medium transport aircraft
16 Y-X small transport aircraft


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## Stealth

whatay machine!


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## aimarraul

]

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## nomi007

when will 2nd y-20 fly?


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## Stealth

I have seen C17 so many times... dont know but the look of Y20 is more aggressive than C17...

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Stealth said:


> I have seen C17 so many times... dont know but the look of Y20 is more aggressive than C17...



one thing for sure is that Y-20 is less expensive than 580 millions price tag C-17 sold to India

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## TaimiKhan

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> one thing for sure is that Y-20 is less expensive than 580 millions price tag C-17 sold to India



US equipment may be expensive, but they are worth it. When it comes to reliability and performance / efficiency, hardly anything beats it. India had long been using Russian airplanes, after using these US built machines, they will forget about those Russian transport planes.

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## SQ8

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> one thing for sure is that Y-20 is less expensive than 580 millions price tag C-17 sold to India



What matters is mission reliability and performance.
How many sortie's can the Y-20 generate as compared to the C-17?
How much time between maintenance and overhauls?

These questions are important if the Y-20 is to be competitive or_ beat_ the C-17.

for eg, the WP-13 engine on the F-7PG produces more power but requires more frequent maintenance than the WP-7 due to its higher power. The rust resistant WP-7 engines of the coastal F-7 squadrons still require more maintenance because of the condensations they face and the F-7's there go for more frequent overhaul. So its a case of how reliable the system and how effective it really is. 
Its all great if I pay less for an item,but stupid if I am going to be paying more for its maintenance throughout its life and it breaks down more than the more expensive one.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> What matters is mission reliability and performance.
> How many sortie's can the Y-20 generate as compared to the C-17?
> How much time between maintenance and overhauls?
> 
> These questions are important if the Y-20 is to be competitive or_ beat_ the C-17.
> 
> for eg, the WP-13 engine on the F-7PG produces more power but requires more frequent maintenance than the WP-7 due to its higher power. The rust resistant WP-7 engines of the coastal F-7 squadrons still require more maintenance because of the condensations they face and the F-7's there go for more frequent overhaul. So its a case of how reliable the system and how effective it really is.
> Its all great if I pay less for an item,but stupid if I am going to be paying more for its maintenance throughout its life and it breaks down more than the more expensive one.


 @Oscar, all of that is very valid. One more thing; apart from cost, the system should always be available to me whenever I need it.
All of those factors add up.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> @Oscar, all of that is very valid. One more thing; apart from cost, the system should always be available to me whenever I need it.
> All of those factors add up.



Exactly on the sortie rate. I may require the aircraft for supply drops 3 times a day but if it has problems after one drop then Im stuck. The B-1 for eg. had made a fairly bad reputation for itself as a Hangar Queen.


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## Capt.Popeye

TaimiKhan said:


> US equipment may be expensive, but they are worth it. When it comes to reliability and performance / efficiency, hardly anything beats it. India had long been using Russian airplanes, after using these US built machines, they will forget about those Russian transport planes.



They have nearly forgotten. Save for the An-32s which run all the "milk-run" flights because of sheer numbers.


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## Luftwaffe

Y-20 Export might not be cheap enough like Candids since it has the STOL capability that IL-76/78 doesn't apart form other qualities based on C-17, at $100m it can be the next C-17 for the payless market. 

Reliability, performance , efficiency and maintenance are always part of the Project/Program it is clear it is an ambitious Transport Program to replace russian made Candids. 

Bottom line Y-20 would have to follow the lines of C-17 to incorporate technologies and similar reliable integrated systems, missile warning, jamming and so on to be successfully considered somewhat less costly alternative to Globemaster which has experience and hard labor of 20 Years under its belt.



Capt.Popeye said:


> They have nearly forgotten. Save for the An-32s which run all the "milk-run" flights because of sheer numbers.



I believe the joint russian-indian STOL medium transport program is in the right direction to get rid of an-32s. It should be started asap india has no problem with cash.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TaimiKhan said:


> US equipment may be expensive, but they are worth it. When it comes to reliability and performance / efficiency, hardly anything beats it. India had long been using Russian airplanes, after using these US built machines, they will forget about those Russian transport planes.





Oscar said:


> What matters is mission reliability and performance.
> How many sortie's can the Y-20 generate as compared to the C-17?
> How much time between maintenance and overhauls?
> 
> These questions are important if the Y-20 is to be competitive or_ beat_ the C-17.
> .



OK as for performance in term of payload, range and few other criterias, Y-20 will not match C-17. As for liability, with 4 engines, I don't think that will be really an major issue. For 580 millions China will problably able to get 4 to 5 aircrafts which generate more sorties rate and payloads with same investment.

Now when come to maintainability of the plane : C-17 might edge Y-20 with less maintain frequency but it much more complicate and spare parts will be much costly compare to Y-20 even the overhall time such inspection of composite structure,...so there is pro and con concerning on each aircraft design philosophy.


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## Stealth

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> one thing for sure is that Y-20 is less expensive than 580 millions price tag C-17 sold to India



if C17 price tag is 680 millions per piece that machine WORTH IT! 

Do you have any idea about American Made weapons ? India is New in this.. Pakistan using American Weapons since last 40 yearrs. There is NO COMPARSION btw Russian/Chinese VS American Weapons. China still failed to make any good engine and comparsion with American made C17 is like.... you compare 1000cc cheap car with Lambhorghini Aventador. 

If China want to make this baby Y20 VS C17, China should spend $$$ + R&D make their own top class engine, jamming system, Control etc and these things required Time. Right now this is VERY VERY Good initiative by China to make something like WOW.... but for WOW you need to spend time/money and make your own engine. Might be in future this machine maybe may be beat or surplus or near C17.

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## Snowden

Anyone buying American weapons will be giving up their independent foreign policy. The US uses countries to depend on their weapons and gain control of their foreign policies. None of the countries buying US weapons will ever go against the US in major issues in international geopolitics. The US will stop parts sales and once that happens, that C-17 is pretty much useless.
It's a condition that the US uses and expects.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Stealth said:


> if C17 price tag is 680 millions per piece that machine WORTH IT!
> 
> Do you have any idea about American Made weapons ? India is New in this.. Pakistan using American Weapons since last 40 yearrs. There is NO COMPARSION btw Russian/Chinese VS American Weapons. China still failed to make any good engine and comparsion with American made C17 is like.... you compare 1000cc cheap car with Lambhorghini Aventador.
> 
> If China want to make this baby Y20 VS C17, China should spend $$$ + R&D make their own top class engine, jamming system, Control etc and these things required Time. Right now this is VERY VERY Good initiative by China to make something like WOW.... but for WOW you need to spend time/money and make your own engine. Might be in future this machine maybe may be beat or surplus or near C17.



I don't know but 580 millions for single C-17 seems to be little bit high, no nation can't afford to have large fleet of this aircraft beside U.S. As for China, Y-20 is our first ever large transport compare to Americans, they have long history of designing wide body airplane such C-141, C-5, Boeing 747...so for now we can't really yet compare & compete with U.S beside using it as benchmark.

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## Obambam

Stealth said:


> if C17 price tag is 680 millions per piece that machine WORTH IT!
> 
> Do you have any idea about American Made weapons ? India is New in this.. Pakistan using American Weapons since last 40 yearrs. *There is NO COMPARSION* btw Russian/Chinese VS American Weapons. China still failed to make any good engine and comparsion with American made C17 is like.... you compare 1000cc cheap car with Lambhorghini Aventador.
> 
> If China want to make this baby Y20 VS C17, China should spend $$$ + R&D make their own top class engine, jamming system, Control etc and these things required Time. Right now this is VERY VERY Good initiative by China to make something like WOW.... but for WOW you need to spend time/money and make your own engine. Might be in future this machine maybe may be beat or surplus or near C17.



Sadly, that is the truth. Any honest Chinese brethren will admit to the fact that China is still behind the US in many respects, and Aviation is one of them. We just have to continue with what we are doing and always strive to improve. 

China have gone a long long way since WWII and we are also one of a handful capable of building such aircrafts, competing in the arms and aviation market. That itself is commendable as we are still denied hi end technology from the west.

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## nalan

Snowden said:


> Anyone buying American weapons will be giving up their independent foreign policy. The US uses countries to depend on their weapons and gain control of their foreign policies. None of the countries buying US weapons will ever go against the US in major issues in international geopolitics. The US will stop parts sales and once that happens, that C-17 is pretty much useless.
> It's a condition that the US uses and expects.


 I disagree this logic


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## muse

Stay on course, China -- Learn from the critics but do not abandon the course - Y20 is a great achievement, but the pinnacle, happily, means more study, more labor, more achievements - happy days

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## Beast

Obambam said:


> Sadly, that is the truth. Any honest Chinese brethren will admit to the fact that China is still behind the US in many respects, and Aviation is one of them. We just have to continue with what we are doing and always strive to improve.
> 
> China have gone a long long way since WWII and we are also one of a handful capable of building such aircrafts, competing in the arms and aviation market. That itself is commendable as we are still denied hi end technology from the west.



Besides engine issue, China aircraft design, airframe struture is as good as american. American has been using 20 yrs old Chinese data to assess Chinese aviation technology. 

Using our own domestic 80,000 tons forge presser, the parts we produce for Y-20 is far superior than C-17. Also Chinese own the largest 3D printer and still held the record for largest parts produce by 3D printer and all these parts find their way into our recent jet of J-20,J-31 and Y-20. 3D print parts do not require welding, so it will be stronger and lighter. Waste usage will be far lower than traditional method.

3D printing technology used in Chinese fighter jets


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## jhungary

Beast said:


> Besides engine issue, China aircraft design, airframe struture is as good as american. American has been using 20 yrs old Chinese data to assess Chinese aviation technology.
> 
> Using our own domestic 80,000 tons forge presser, the parts we produce for Y-20 is far superior than C-17. Also Chinese own the largest 3D printer and still held the record for largest parts produce by 3D printer and all these parts find their way into our recent jet of J-20,J-31 and Y-20. 3D print parts do not require welding, so it will be stronger and lighter. Waste usage will be far lower than traditional method.
> 
> 3D printing technology used in Chinese fighter jets



Do you know why Chinese Giant Commercial Airlines uses Boeing/Airbus Jet instead of Chinese own Comac Jet??

And do you know how a single aspect -The Engine- Overshadowed all other technical aspect in term of Civil Aviation??

China Southern Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China Eastern Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Air China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You do know why CFM-56 engine on both Boeing and Airbus are considered the *BEST CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT ENGINE *of all time, with 1 inflight shutdown every 333,000 operation hours and have been sold in then of thousand world wide.

And how do you plan on substantiate your claim of 



> the parts we produce for Y-20 is far superior than C-17



Have you ever saw a single C-17 or have you visited the Assemble line from Boeing??


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## Beast

jhungary said:


> Do you know why Chinese Giant Commercial Airlines uses Boeing/Airbus Jet instead of Chinese own Comac Jet??
> 
> And do you know how a single aspect -The Engine- Overshadowed all other technical aspect in term of Civil Aviation??
> 
> China Southern Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> China Eastern Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Air China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You do know why CFM-56 engine on both Boeing and Airbus are considered the *BEST CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT ENGINE *of all time, with 1 inflight shutdown every 333,000 operation hours and have been sold in then of thousand world wide.



You are talking nonsense. Our C919 will only debut in 2016 and here you are talking abt our airline not using our own domestic aircraft... See how you try to twist the words. Failed.

C919 has not debut but has already secured many orders..
China's Aviation ABCs: Airbus, Boeing, and COMAC - Forbes

I think I do not need to say more.

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## jhungary

Beast said:


> You are talking nonsense. Our C919 will only debut in 2016 and here you are talking abt our airline not using our own domestic aircraft... See how you try to twist the words. Failed.
> 
> C919 has not debut but has already secured many orders..
> China's Aviation ABCs: Airbus, Boeing, and COMAC - Forbes
> 
> I think I do not need to say more.



1.)* I NEVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT C919*. Comac does not only make c919 (Which was not even made yet as you said) I intentionally leave out C919 as they are not yet in service. I am talking about ARJ21.

Comac ARJ21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2.) Even with C919, there are only 60 order from the 3 Giant of Chinese Aviation. Where the combine fleet is more than 1000 aircrafts. You sure your puny 60 aircraft order from the 3 Giant is on the same scale of The A and the B? Which make up of 940 of the nearly 1000 fleet........

Everyone in the aviation field knows this as a "Token" purchase, you think after C919 in service, the 3 giants will gave up all their Boeing and Airbus Fleet?? 

Not to mention of all the airline in China, NONE of them solely operate Chinese aircraft is saying something there.

Come back to me when your Chinese engine have a record of fail ONCE EVER 333,000 Operation hours. Do I need to say more?


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## Genesis

jhungary said:


> 1.)* I NEVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT C919*. Comac does not only make c919 (Which was not even made yet as you said) I intentionally leave out C919 as they are not yet in service. I am talking about ARJ21.
> 
> Comac ARJ21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2.) Even with C919, there are only 60 order from the 3 Giant of Chinese Aviation. Where the combine fleet is more than 1000 aircrafts. You sure your puny 60 aircraft order from the 3 Giant is on the same scale of The A and the B? Which make up of 940 of the nearly 1000 fleet........
> 
> Everyone in the aviation field knows this as a "Token" purchase, you think after C919 in service, the 3 giants will gave up all their Boeing and Airbus Fleet??
> 
> Not to mention of all the airline in China, NONE of them solely operate Chinese aircraft is saying something there.
> 
> Come back to me when your Chinese engine have a record of fail ONCE EVER 333,000 Operation hours. Do I need to say more?



Token purchase? Maybe, we all need our starts, you won't call Walmart's one store at the beginning or Hilton hotel's one motel insignificant would you?

As you said we have massive need for planes, and with the new initiatives, starting with our first lady using domestic luxury brands, and it will continue with the replacement of official car fleet of Audi and what not with our domestic cars. 

Do we at this point need to be as good? Not really, we aren't competing "fairly" if you must, we can overlook somethings just for the fact that we are all Chinese. 

What you need to remember is we are China, not Japan, not Britan, we have MASSIVE resources even at our weakest points. Our margin for error is far greater and our potential for greatness is also far better.

Michael jordan on a bad day is still better than some scrub, maybe once in a long while the scrub can do better in ONE game, but in the end MJ is MJ.

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## jhungary

Genesis said:


> Token purchase? Maybe, we all need our starts, you won't call Walmart's one store at the beginning or Hilton hotel's one motel insignificant would you?
> 
> As you said we have massive need for planes, and with the new initiatives, starting with our first lady using domestic luxury brands, and it will continue with the replacement of official car fleet of Audi and what not with our domestic cars.
> 
> Do we at this point need to be as good? Not really, we aren't competing "fairly" if you must, we can overlook somethings just for the fact that we are all Chinese.
> 
> What you need to remember is we are China, not Japan, not Britan, we have MASSIVE resources even at our weakest points. Our margin for error is far greater and our potential for greatness is also far better.
> 
> Michael jordan on a bad day is still better than some scrub, maybe once in a long while the scrub can do better in ONE game, but in the end MJ is MJ.



lol.....touches some nerve......

You are right, all things started with a token, but how long it take for Sam Walton to growth from Wal-Mart discount city into Walmart multi-national corporation?? It took 45 years. And a lot of failure in between to refine the "Wal-Mart" brand.

Meanwhile you can start replacing whatever you like, you can go up front and tell everyone "Hey we are using Chinese own product" But even your number 1 is using the Boeing plane, granted we should not put bug in it, but the very fact that the number 1 Chinese is flying US plane is saying something

Also the all mighty Comac C919 the previous Chinese member so proud of, put them in the same league with Airbus and Boeing, did you know which engine is running on the purposed C919?? It's a GE CFM international. That again is saying something.

CFM International LEAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Resource will run out some time at some point, not a single country can have unlimited resource to deal with anything. You need to know, MJ will not be the same MJ who took 7 NBA championship, it would still be the same MJ but at the same time, he will be different


I have nothing against Chinese Aviation, actually my Brother who IS a Boeing engine engineer who specialise in RR Trent always say one of those day he probably have to go back to China and study their engine some day. The thing that make me mad is Chinese member here trying to compare the Engine/Aviation tech in China, which is still at it infancy, to the Aviation Giant like the US.

I have no argument on whether or not Chinese did a good job or not, I have a problem with Chinese member saying Y-20 is anyway better than C-17 if we discount the engine.

I mean, how many time you hear an aircraft crash because of structural failure? And how many time you hear a plane crash due to "Engine Failure" and I do not consider US plane are that badly build apart from the engine too. Have you ever heard of China Airlines Flight 006? Ask yourselves, which aircraft they prefer to be in when that flight doing acrobatic mauver over the pacific, a Chinese Comac C919 or a Boeing 747?


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## Tshering22

Congratulations.

You have moved up the aviation learning curve. 

All the best for your achievements.

You have worked hard for achieving this.


Hard work always pays.

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## Beast

jhungary said:


> lol.....touches some nerve......
> 
> You are right, all things started with a token, but how long it take for Sam Walton to growth from Wal-Mart discount city into Walmart multi-national corporation?? It took 45 years. And a lot of failure in between to refine the "Wal-Mart" brand.
> 
> Meanwhile you can start replacing whatever you like, you can go up front and tell everyone "Hey we are using Chinese own product" But even your number 1 is using the Boeing plane, granted we should not put bug in it, but the very fact that the number 1 Chinese is flying US plane is saying something
> 
> Also the all mighty Comac C919 the previous Chinese member so proud of, put them in the same league with Airbus and Boeing, did you know which engine is running on the purposed C919?? It's a GE CFM international. That again is saying something.
> 
> CFM International LEAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Resource will run out some time at some point, not a single country can have unlimited resource to deal with anything. You need to know, MJ will not be the same MJ who took 7 NBA championship, it would still be the same MJ but at the same time, he will be different
> 
> 
> I have nothing against Chinese Aviation, actually my Brother who IS a Boeing engine engineer who specialise in RR Trent always say one of those day he probably have to go back to China and study their engine some day. The thing that make me mad is Chinese member here trying to compare the Engine/Aviation tech in China, which is still at it infancy, to the Aviation Giant like the US.
> 
> I have no argument on whether or not Chinese did a good job or not, I have a problem with Chinese member saying Y-20 is anyway better than C-17 if we discount the engine.
> 
> I mean, how many time you hear an aircraft crash because of structural failure? And how many time you hear a plane crash due to "Engine Failure" and I do not consider US plane are that badly build apart from the engine too. Have you ever heard of China Airlines Flight 006? Ask yourselves, which aircraft they prefer to be in when that flight doing acrobatic mauver over the pacific, a Chinese Comac C919 or a Boeing 747?



They will prefer Comac 919.. As I say you are trying compare an aircraft no debut yet while you are so sure of its quality. More or less speaks of your narrow view. The problem is the biggest airline market in the world for next 10 years will be China. Most China domestic airline is state control. Our leader will ensure airline buy the Comac 919. There is nothing you American can do anything about it. The money is in our pocket. We like to spend whatever we want. Just like how our leader forced all government official to switch to domestic car instead of Audi now..

That is also how Boeing and Airbus started.. You can cry foul but end of the day, market is dictated by us.

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## cnleio

Y-20 black painting

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## jhungary

Beast said:


> They will prefer Comac 919.. As I say you are trying compare an aircraft no debut yet while you are so sure of its quality. More or less speaks of your narrow view. The problem is the biggest airline market in the world for next 10 years will be China. Most China domestic airline is state control. Our leader will ensure airline buy the Comac 919. There is nothing you American can do anything about it. The money is in our pocket. We like to spend whatever we want. Just like how our leader forced all government official to switch to domestic car instead of Audi now..
> 
> That is also how Boeing and Airbus started.. You can cry foul but end of the day, market is dictated by us.



lol, you do know Comac C919 uses American Engine right??

Comac C919 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and you keep saying the future of Chinese airlines are using Chinese plane, yet the 3 giant keep ordering from both Boeing and Airbus. lol


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## rcrmj

jhungary said:


> lol, you do know Comac C919 uses American Engine right??
> 
> Comac C919 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> and you keep saying the future of Chinese airlines are using Chinese plane, yet the 3 giant keep ordering from both Boeing and Airbus. lol



you stupidity and naivety is really off the mark, no wonder behaves like Gaybit's toyboy,,, do you even have the slightest touch of common sense?

China is already one of the biggest airline markets and going to be the biggest one in short time, do you think Chinese will be as stupid as you to wait like 10 years to buy planes when the domestic ones are ready?

the gentlemen said it clearly that C919 wont be ready for quite some time, and we keep buying Boeing and AB is because we need that* NOW *for the ever growing capacity understand? whether we gonna choose C919 over Boeing and BA or not is irrelevant


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## jhungary

rcrmj said:


> you stupidity and naivety is really off the mark, no wonder behaves like Gaybit's toyboy,,, do you even have the slightest touch of common sense?
> 
> China is already one of the biggest airline markets and going to be the biggest one in short time, do you think Chinese will be as stupid as you to wait like 10 years to buy planes when the domestic ones are ready?
> 
> the gentlemen said it clearly that C919 wont be ready for quite some time, and we keep buying Boeing and AB is because we need that* NOW *for the ever growing capacity understand? whether we gonna choose C919 over Boeing and BA or not is irrelevant



lol .. say that other people have no common sense and resort to name calling is what Chinese fanboy can do these day

If you call the whole country only hav 34 airlines, 1/3 of those are cargo lifter and not more than 1500 planes in general is "One of the biggest" then you need to call the 11 passenger Airlines in the US with more than 3000 planes "Giantic"

you can call whatever you want in 10 years, hell you can say China is the king of the world if you like, but if you put all your money in the C919 basket that still use CFM (American) engine, I would say your "Market" is kind of Grim don't you think?

lol: your market is "Evergrowing" please don't make people laugh


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## rcrmj

jhungary said:


> lol .. say that other people have no common sense and resort to name calling is what Chinese fanboy can do these day
> 
> If you call the whole country only hav 34 airlines, 1/3 of those are cargo lifter and not more than 1500 planes in general is "One of the biggest" then you need to call the 11 passenger Airlines in the US with more than 3000 planes "Giantic"
> 
> you can call whatever you want in 10 years, hell you can say China is the king of the world if you like, but if you put all your money in the C919 basket that still use CFM (American) engine, I would say your "Market" is kind of Grim don't you think?
> 
> lol: your market is "Evergrowing" please don't make people laugh



lol, more stupidity

the stupidest thing I have ever heard, to your moronic logic Chinese airline is not growing? you have a nice dig of the figures how many air travel passengers China has last year and its year on year increments? to your simpleton mind 1500 is enough for 1.4 billion population? 

yeah we can call whatever we want in 10 years, regardless of your pathetic understanding of China, we will just keep growing in terms of passengers and number of planes```and yes we like to put our money on C919, as the market is lucrative and still growing with fastest rates```but for the time being we will keep buying Beoing and AB to suit our needs until the C919 and others are ready which is the question not for now`

that's right the ever declining America likes to laugh the ever growing emerging market, as that's the only thing can make you feel better```

no matter how hard you want laugh at C919 or Chinese aviation industry atm, and the truth is we will get there and we will keep expending


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## Genesis

jhungary said:


> lol.....touches some nerve......
> 
> You are right, all things started with a token, but how long it take for Sam Walton to growth from Wal-Mart discount city into Walmart multi-national corporation?? It took 45 years. And a lot of failure in between to refine the "Wal-Mart" brand.
> 
> Meanwhile you can start replacing whatever you like, you can go up front and tell everyone "Hey we are using Chinese own product" But even your number 1 is using the Boeing plane, granted we should not put bug in it, but the very fact that the number 1 Chinese is flying US plane is saying something
> 
> Also the all mighty Comac C919 the previous Chinese member so proud of, put them in the same league with Airbus and Boeing, did you know which engine is running on the purposed C919?? It's a GE CFM international. That again is saying something.
> 
> CFM International LEAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Resource will run out some time at some point, not a single country can have unlimited resource to deal with anything. You need to know, MJ will not be the same MJ who took 7 NBA championship, it would still be the same MJ but at the same time, he will be different
> 
> 
> I have nothing against Chinese Aviation, actually my Brother who IS a Boeing engine engineer who specialise in RR Trent always say one of those day he probably have to go back to China and study their engine some day. The thing that make me mad is Chinese member here trying to compare the Engine/Aviation tech in China, which is still at it infancy, to the Aviation Giant like the US.
> 
> I have no argument on whether or not Chinese did a good job or not, I have a problem with Chinese member saying Y-20 is anyway better than C-17 if we discount the engine.
> 
> I mean, how many time you hear an aircraft crash because of structural failure? And how many time you hear a plane crash due to "Engine Failure" and I do not consider US plane are that badly build apart from the engine too. Have you ever heard of China Airlines Flight 006? Ask yourselves, which aircraft they prefer to be in when that flight doing acrobatic mauver over the pacific, a Chinese Comac C919 or a Boeing 747?



hit what nerve, I'm don't follow these types of news, in fact, if Boeing is doing a good job, why repeat it, unless we got something else to contribute, which at this point is probably not at all.

The wal-mart thing is just a simple comparison, didn't need his life story. For one thing when he started he wasn't rich, which we are, he didn't have the staff he had then as he did now, which we have. He's one dude we are a country. Just saying we are getting started, nothing more.

As to we are flying American, that was when we couldn't make our own, only recently did we start to make progress. Even the Audi replacement is going to take time. 

It's saying we just started, so while you admit we just started, but at the same time, you want to use the highest standards. 

Airbus may be ahead of us, but are not in a different league. When Man city started with a ton of cash, they were not as good a team as Man UTD, but they weren't in different leagues. Man city quickly caught up using that cash, while UTD have to watch.

This is the same deal, we are pumping massive amounts of funding and giving them a market to operate in China, which BTW is close to the size of a continent, and with our rising standards of living air travel will be more and more popular. So while not as good, we are not far behind either. They got the tech and customers we got the cash and man power to take it away.

Resources will run out? This is a plane, not to create superman. Even F-35 only cost 300 Billion+ in a few decades. So if we use that figure, which is won't be that much ,it's a price we can more than afford 100 times over without breaking a sweat.

To your last part of your post. This pretty much sums up why US and China can never work together. You can't see past the prejudices, and must always look at us like we were still in the 70s and starving to death.

We are just starting, but the difference isn't as big as you think it is.


Finally, this is argument is silly in the sense that the Aviation industry is not the driving force of China, it is not the hardest thing to achieve. This is like learning to ride a bike instead of learning to walk. It's much simpler and is easily achievable. We can turn our country from worse to Africa to colonizing Africa in 30 years, but this is obviously the place where we are stuck.

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## jhungary

Genesis said:


> hit what nerve, I'm don't follow these types of news, in fact, if Boeing is doing a good job, why repeat it, unless we got something else to contribute, which at this point is probably not at all.
> 
> The wal-mart thing is just a simple comparison, didn't need his life story. For one thing when he started he wasn't rich, which we are, he didn't have the staff he had then as he did now, which we have. He's one dude we are a country. Just saying we are getting started, nothing more.
> 
> As to we are flying American, that was when we couldn't make our own, only recently did we start to make progress. Even the Audi replacement is going to take time.
> 
> It's saying we just started, so while you admit we just started, but at the same time, *you want to use the highest standards*.
> 
> Airbus may be ahead of us, but are not in a different league. When Man city started with a ton of cash, they were not as good a team as Man UTD, but they weren't in different leagues. Man city quickly caught up using that cash, while UTD have to watch.
> 
> This is the same deal, we are pumping massive amounts of funding and giving them a market to operate in China, which BTW is close to the size of a continent, and with our rising standards of living air travel will be more and more popular. So while not as good, we are not far behind either. They got the tech and customers we got the cash and man power to take it away.
> 
> *Resources will run out*? This is a plane, not to create superman. Even F-35 only cost 300 Billion+ in a few decades. So if we use that figure, which is won't be that much ,it's a price we can more than afford 100 times over without breaking a sweat.
> 
> To your last part of your post. This pretty much sums up why US and China can never work together. You can't see past the prejudices, and must always look at us like we were still in the 70s and starving to death.
> 
> We are just starting, but the difference isn't as big as you think it is.
> 
> 
> Finally, this is argument is silly in the sense that the Aviation industry is not the driving force of China, it is not the hardest thing to achieve. This is like learning to ride a bike instead of learning to walk. It's much simpler and is easily achievable. We can turn our country from worse to Africa to colonizing Africa in 30 years, but this is obviously the place where we are stuck.



I have no intention to reply thru all the comment, just 2 point I want to say

1.) I am not the one who expected high standard from Chinese Aviation, Chinese member here claim the Y-20 is any bit *NOT AS GOOD AS*, but *BETTER* than C-17. To me, this is funny, look a few psot before my last post and see who actually claiming the Chinese Aviation is of good standard.

2.) Resource WILL run out, I don't mean now, but they do, unless you can create atoms (Not splitting them) Resource WILL runs out, the rate we (CHinese included) wasted our resource, we will face a day without fossil fuel, without alloy/metal. Hence all the recycle program was started. If you expect your country would have unlimited resource, then I can say you are wrong.

Other than that I am not interested on discuss Man UTD or Man City, I am not a foodball fan.



rcrmj said:


> lol, more stupidity
> 
> the stupidest thing I have ever heard, to your moronic logic Chinese airline is not growing? you have a nice dig of the figures how many air travel passengers China has last year and its year on year increments? to your simpleton mind 1500 is enough for 1.4 billion population?
> 
> yeah we can call whatever we want in 10 years, regardless of your pathetic understanding of China, we will just keep growing in terms of passengers and number of planes```and yes we like to put our money on C919, as the market is lucrative and still growing with fastest rates```but for the time being we will keep buying Beoing and AB to suit our needs until the C919 and others are ready which is the question not for now`
> 
> that's right the ever declining America likes to laugh the ever growing emerging market, as that's the only thing can make you feel better```
> 
> no matter how hard you want laugh at C919 or Chinese aviation industry atm, and the truth is we will get there and we will keep expending



lol tell me *WHEN* you got there, not *In 10 years time*. Unless you claim you have psychic ability, I am not interested in Chinese Member "Foresee" their future.

As of today, the only narrow body jet Chinese make IS using American Engine, no matter what you say *DOES NOT MATTER*. 

And last time I check US have 1.8% growth, it's *NOT DECLINING*

Have fun flying our Boeing 767 now


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## Genesis

jhungary said:


> I have no intention to reply thru all the comment, just 2 point I want to say
> 
> 1.) I am not the one who expected high standard from Chinese Aviation, Chinese member here claim the Y-20 is any bit *NOT AS GOOD AS*, but *BETTER* than C-17. To me, this is funny, look a few psot before my last post and see who actually claiming the Chinese Aviation is of good standard.
> 
> 2.) Resource WILL run out, I don't mean now, but they do, unless you can create atoms (Not splitting them) Resource WILL runs out, the rate we (CHinese included) wasted our resource, we will face a day without fossil fuel, without alloy/metal. Hence all the recycle program was started. If you expect your country would have unlimited resource, then I can say you are wrong.
> 
> Other than that I am not interested on discuss Man UTD or Man City, I am not a foodball fan.
> 
> 
> 
> lol tell me *WHEN* you got there, not *In 10 years time*. Unless you claim you have psychic ability, I am not interested in Chinese Member "Foresee" their future.
> 
> As of today, the only narrow body jet Chinese make IS using American Engine, no matter what you say *DOES NOT MATTER*.
> 
> And last time I check US have 1.8% growth, it's *NOT DECLINING*
> 
> Have fun flying our Boeing 767 now



I will only reply to your two things then.

First. It is good standard now. It isn't the best but it's getting there. The thing is, there is a committed group of people, including the government that wants Chinese brands to flourish. 

There is funding. There is talent. I don't need to provide proof for this do I, I'm assuming anyone on this forum knows the education and money situation in China.

So while we are not there we are on our way. 

Second, resources will run out? maybe, but that is not anytime soon and probably won't even be in the children I don't have yet's life time.

Besides, it won't just run out for China, but the world. Last time I checked the US is in the world. 

But more importantly, how does this affect our aviation industry now or even 30 years now? Or even potentially ever? With new tech and resources being developed. 

Why are we talking resources again?

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## jhungary

Genesis said:


> I will only reply to your two things then.
> 
> First. It is good standard now. It isn't the best but it's getting there. The thing is, there is a committed group of people, including the government that wants Chinese brands to flourish.
> 
> There is funding. There is talent. I don't need to provide proof for this do I, I'm assuming anyone on this forum knows the education and money situation in China.
> 
> So while we are not there we are on our way.
> 
> Second, resources will run out? maybe, but that is not anytime soon and probably won't even be in the children I don't have yet's life time.
> 
> Besides, it won't just run out for China, but the world. Last time I checked the US is in the world.
> 
> But more importantly, how does this affect our aviation industry now or even 30 years now? Or even potentially ever? With new tech and resources being developed.
> 
> Why are we talking resources again?



As I said, I am not the one who chest thump Chinese ability in any sort of Aviation, I have no idea nor speculation on Chinese Aviation in the future, I am not a good enough aviation expert to tell you this, if you want I can ask my bro, he been travel to China a lot for Boeing every time Chinese Airlines bough one of their jet. He could answer you in detail, not me.

Resource have and can derail technological development, put Jet engine as an example. First of all, you need to consider fuel and currently almost all type of Jet Fuel is fossil fuel and in the near future, we will need to design an engine that don't fly on current Jet fuel, and currently no country in the world is doing it.

Put into effect that carbon-composite material are needed to build air craft hull, and you cannot recycle those. (Have to be pre-treated and destroyed their recyclability.) It will run out some time in the future. 

Beside, I am not the one who start the resource thing, you did on post #214, so you should ask yourselves why resource have been bought into the table


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## Genesis

jhungary said:


> As I said, I am not the one who chest thump Chinese ability in any sort of Aviation, I have no idea nor speculation on Chinese Aviation in the future, I am not a good enough aviation expert to tell you this, if you want I can ask my bro, he been travel to China a lot for Boeing every time Chinese Airlines bough one of their jet. He could answer you in detail, not me.
> 
> Resource have and can derail technological development, put Jet engine as an example. First of all, you need to consider fuel and currently almost all type of Jet Fuel is fossil fuel and in the near future, we will need to design an engine that don't fly on current Jet fuel, and currently no country in the world is doing it.
> 
> Put into effect that carbon-composite material are needed to build air craft hull, and you cannot recycle those. (Have to be pre-treated and destroyed their recyclability.) It will run out some time in the future.
> 
> Beside, I am not the one who start the resource thing, you did on post #214, so you should ask yourselves why resource have been bought into the table



I never said we were as good, just that we were on equal footing in some areas, like funding and talents, to an extent, and we have more resolve and absolute power in our favor. What we don't have is experience, and real access into developing world markets as well as access to international talent pool as in we as of yet can't attract the best from most other countries yet.

As to resources, I meant money and people as well as power to control our markets. Not actual resources. So, I guess we been arguing a misunderstood point here.


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## rcrmj

jhungary said:


> I have no intention to reply thru all the comment, just 2 point I want to say
> 
> 1.) I am not the one who expected high standard from Chinese Aviation, Chinese member here claim the Y-20 is any bit *NOT AS GOOD AS*, but *BETTER* than C-17. To me, this is funny, look a few psot before my last post and see who actually claiming the Chinese Aviation is of good standard.
> 
> 2.) Resource WILL run out, I don't mean now, but they do, unless you can create atoms (Not splitting them) Resource WILL runs out, the rate we (CHinese included) wasted our resource, we will face a day without fossil fuel, without alloy/metal. Hence all the recycle program was started. If you expect your country would have unlimited resource, then I can say you are wrong.
> 
> Other than that I am not interested on discuss Man UTD or Man City, I am not a foodball fan.
> 
> 
> 
> lol tell me *WHEN* you got there, not *In 10 years time*. Unless you claim you have psychic ability, I am not interested in Chinese Member "Foresee" their future.
> 
> As of today, the only narrow body jet Chinese make IS using American Engine, no matter what you say *DOES NOT MATTER*.
> 
> And last time I check US have 1.8% growth, it's *NOT DECLINING*
> 
> Have fun flying our Boeing 767 now



if you don't care what we can do in 10 years time and why you so care to hang up with our domestic air plane development``lol
and are we talking about the engine or what? the whole point of that gentlemen was that C919 wont be ready in few years time, and we will keep buying foreign planes to suit our growth, is there any fundamentally wrong about that, as you keep hanging on the engine things?

if you want talk about engine you can open a thread for that..

oh yeah, btw we don't care what stupid American think about our own developments, especially a simpleton like you
and yes America is declining in relative term, and that matters, coz it cant be a bully no more in near future

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## by78

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> one thing for sure is that Y-20 is less expensive than 580 millions price tag C-17 sold to India



Wow, that's almost 2.7 times the flyaway cost per unit paid by the U.S. military. Well, at least the Americans are transparent about price gouging, unlike the Russians who simply string India along without committing to a final price tag.

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## nomi007

cnleio said:


> Y-20 black painting


Still did not see any pic in which cargo door were open


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

by78 said:


> Wow, that's almost* 2.7 times the flyaway cost per unit *paid by the U.S. military. Well, at least the Americans are transparent about price gouging, unlike the Russians who simply string India along without committing to a final price tag.



I heart U.S payed only 120 millions, it's almost 4.8 time...of course it's very transparent, India has other choice?

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## That Guy

nomi007 said:


> Still did not see any pic in which cargo door were open



It's probably because this is still in it's early stages of development.

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## cnleio

nomi007 said:


> Still did not see any pic in which cargo door were open


Just nobody share door opened pic on the internet, patience.

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## nomi007



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## Luftwaffe

jhungary said:


> lol, you do know Comac C919 uses American Engine right??
> 
> 
> and you keep saying the future of Chinese airlines are using Chinese plane, yet the 3 giant keep ordering from both Boeing and Airbus. lol



What's wrong with your mind. Even if China or any other Nation buys international air transports it has all the right if it has got the technologies to develop its own indigenous air transports may it be for civil or military purposes, why does it pain you. The biggest work left to be completed by China is Engines they have invested billions into it, they are patient with it and in time they will eventually be succeed. 

Japan is developing it own Kawasaki P-1 MPA while operating large number of P-3s to be replaced in coming years. At the same time Japan Kawasaki is also developing C-2 Transports that will replace all older C-130Hs and C-1.


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## jhungary

Luftwaffe said:


> What's wrong with your mind. Even if China or any other Nation buys international air transports it has all the right if it has got the technologies to develop its own indigenous air transports may it be for civil or military purposes, why does it pain you. The biggest work left to be completed by China is Engines they have invested billions into it, they are patient with it and in time they will eventually be succeed.
> 
> Japan is developing it own Kawasaki P-1 MPA while operating large number of P-3s to be replaced in coming years. At the same time Japan Kawasaki is also developing C-2 Transports that will replace all older C-130Hs and C-1.



Dude, did you actually watch he whole thread? Top to bottom??

I am not denying Chinese would one day become one of the top in aviation, i am merely replying in response to Chinese Chest Thumping about how good their aviation was *NOW*, even tho a total indigenous planes have not yet rolled out in any aviation market.

It does not pain me or whatever to see Chinese did their own plane, not even a single bit.

By the way, Military aviation is alot different than Civil Aviation. And if you have to name a country, Japan seems to be a weird choice to prove your point, as they are the only country in the world bounded by their own and international government on how many plane and how much tonnage of ship they can build.


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## cirr

Y-20 2000X seen making taxing runs&#12290;

Maiden flight any time now&#12290;

Two further Y-20 prototypes make appearances soon&#65292;one of which will undergo flight-tests with WS-20 as one of its engines&#12290;

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## UKBengali

cirr said:


> Y-20 2000X seen making taxing runs&#12290;
> 
> Maiden flight any time now&#12290;
> 
> Two further Y-20 prototypes make appearances soon&#65292;one of which will undergo flight-tests with WS-20 as one of its engines&#12290;



Any estimate on why Y-20 will be ready for PLA service?


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## cirr

UKBengali said:


> Any estimate on why Y-20 will be ready for PLA service?



2016 or 2017.

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## peaceful

cnleio said:


> Y-20 black painting



&#21482;&#26377;&#19968;&#20010;&#20255;&#22823;&#30340;&#27665;&#26063;&#25165;&#33021;&#35774;&#35745;&#12289;&#21046;&#36896;&#12289;&#27979;&#35797;&#12289;&#20837;&#24441;&#36825;&#26679;&#30340;&#24037;&#19994;&#30343;&#20896;&#12290;

&#36825;&#20010;&#19990;&#30028;&#19978;&#26377;&#19977;&#20010;&#36825;&#26679;&#30340;&#27665;&#26063;&#65306;&#20420;&#32599;&#26031;&#27665;&#26063;&#12289;&#23433;&#26684;&#40065;&#25746;&#20811;&#36874;&#27665;&#26063;&#65292;&#27721;&#26063;&#12290;



nomi007 said:


> Still did not see any pic in which cargo door were open



judging from the image, I have the feeling that this initial prototype probably doesn't even have a cargo door. 

however, as already pointed out, it is the first prototype and you don't question whether having a cargo door is possible - having this aircraft flying like this is 100x difficult than having the cargo door.

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## nomi007




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## TheNoob

I want a toy model of this... >.<


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## LTE-TDD

The second Y20 come out:

Ä³µØÍ£»úÆº±»ÅÄ¸ö¾¡¹â£¬¾ªÏÖÅÖæ¤¶þºÅ£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -

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## cirr

LTE-TDD said:


> The second Y20 come out:
> 
> Ä³µØÍ£»úÆº±»ÅÄ¸ö¾¡¹â£¬¾ªÏÖÅÖæ¤¶þºÅ£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡£¡-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -



[YouKu]XNjIyNDcxNTcy[/YouKu]

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## cirr

Y-20 continues flight tests with new engine（WS-20):

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## cirr

The 2nd Y-20 prototype took to the air a few days back：






Rumour has it that the 3rd prototype has gone off the assembly line。

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## sweetgrape

, Beautiful chubby, want touch its chubby belly!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

cirr said:


> The 2nd Y-20 prototype took to the air a few days back：
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rumour has it that the 3rd prototype has gone off the assembly line。




I wish Pakistan Military had 10 of these for our Para Military Troops , looks so modern and sleek just can imagine the new avionics match the beautiful exterior



cnleio said:


> Y-20 black painting




Magnificent !!! a true Beast in air

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## cirr

So when will Y-20 be fitted with WS-20 for test flights now that。。。。。。？

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## cirr

Y-20003：

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## Informant

Jf Thunder said:


> such wow, much plane, very power wow



Bro you stepping into @Oscar 's territory.


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## Jf Thunder

Informant said:


> Bro you stepping into @Oscar 's territory.


ummmm, what?


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## Informant

Jf Thunder said:


> ummmm, what?



Doge is Oscar's thing.


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## Jf Thunder

Informant said:


> Doge is Oscar's thing.


im still gonna do it


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## nomi007

Recent images indicated that the third prototype (20003?) just made its maiden flight on December 16, 2013. *Y-20* is expected to enter the service in 2017


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## Broccoli



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## banvanaxl

cnleio said:


> Y-20 CG, standard PLAAF painting



Best pic yet. Thank you.


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## nomi007




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## cirr



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## nomi007




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## nomi007

*Flight tests of Xian Y-20 proceeding well*
Flight tests of China’s Xian Y-20 transport aircraft are proceeding well, with the designer of the type claiming the aircraft has “set new records” for China.
In an interview with China Military Online published on the web site of China’s defence ministry, Y-20 designer Tang Chonghong says the commissioning date of the aircraft is confidential, but that test pilots for the Y-20 programme are undergoing training.

Tang says that all goals have been achieved, specifically in areas such altitude and speed. One area of particular focus appears to be stability during flight.

Following its well-publicised first flight in January 2013, there has been little official commentary about the Y-20. This contrasts with other high profile Chinese defence programmes, such as the routine flight testing aboard Beijing’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.

 “The performance of Y-20 is very high,” says Tang. “It can adapt to relatively hard conditions and can land at small airports in mountain areas. In its design, the adverse weather conditions of frigid zone, high heat area and plateau as well as the runway situation are fully considered.”

One source familiar with large jet transport aircraft, however, questions the Y-20’s ability to land on rough fields. He notes that while its two main landing gear bogies have six wheels each, the wheels are arranged in a two-two-two pattern from front-to back.
*
Among other large jet transports, the Boeing C-17, which was designed with rough-field capability in mind, has two six-wheel main bogies, but in a three-three configuration. Russia’s Ilyushin Il-76 has two eight-wheel main bogies, in a four-four configuration.

Tang also played down speculation about a larger successor to the Y-20.

“The present main work is still to carry out the test flight on Y-20’s basic stability, the brother series is not yet considered,” he says. “Some plans on China’s large transport aircraft are still under discussion, which cannot be disclosed.”

The “plans” Tang’ alludes to could be the possibility that the Y-20 will be used as the basis of a future airborne early warning & control (AEW&C) aircraft. A Y-20 equipped for AEW&C would complement – and eventually replace - Beijing’s Il-76 based KJ-2000 aircraft. The type could also be modified to serve as a tanker.

AEW&C and air-to-air refuelling are seen as two key areas of weakness for China.
*

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## nomi007



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## khalifa786

Which has the higher payload capacity C17 Globemaster or Y-20?

Pic seems quite amazing...


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## nomi007

khalifa786 said:


> Which has the higher payload capacity C17 Globemaster or Y-20?
> 
> Pic seems quite amazing...


c-17 globe master

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## aliaselin

New Y-20 rolling out
西飞十大杰出青年王湛：“100-1=0”的践行者_航空人物频道_新闻中心_

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## Black Eagle 90

Broccoli said:


>



Will PAF along with other Muslim countries will going to buy it in good numbers???



nomi007 said:


> Recent images indicated that the third prototype (20003?) just made its maiden flight on December 16, 2013. *Y-20* is expected to enter the service in 2017



Will there be any twin engine version that would compete with A-400M, C-130J-30 and KC-390 along with Japanese ones???


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## nomi007

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Will PAF along with other Muslim countries will going to buy it in good numbers???
> 
> 
> 
> Will there be any twin engine version that would compete with A-400M, C-130J-30 and KC-390 along with Japanese ones???


yes
It has been rumored that a new medium transport design was proposed by 603/XAC,



powered by two WS-118 turbofans. So far no details are available regarding the status of the project.




chinese c-130 called y-9

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## Black Eagle 90

nomi007 said:


> yes
> It has been rumored that a new medium transport design was proposed by 603/XAC,
> 
> 
> 
> powered by two WS-118 turbofans. So far no details are available regarding the status of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chinese c-130 called y-9



But not yet any transport one has been delivered to PLAAF or anyone else. Although Y-20 and 603/XAC will be a good aircraft for PAF and other Muslim countries but we need to join in their programs.


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## aliaselin

Y-20 progress exceed most people's expectation








nomi007 said:


> yes
> It has been rumored that a new medium transport design was proposed by 603/XAC,
> 
> 
> 
> powered by two WS-118 turbofans. So far no details are available regarding the status of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chinese c-130 called y-9


WS-118 is core engine of WS-10, and I think you mean Y-19 propelled by WJ-10

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## bdslph

full production 2017 is a long way to go for Y20 
but if china looks like made a fine plane maybe Bangladesh Pakistan and other countries will also buy


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## Luftwaffe

bdslph said:


> full production 2017 is a long way to go for Y20
> but if china looks like made a fine plane maybe Bangladesh Pakistan and other countries will also buy



I don't think so Pakistan would go so soon for Y-20 but perhaps after a good numbers are operational with Chinese Air Force.
4 IL-78/4 CN-235/18 C-130s are more than enough for the next 12 years atleast but C-130s and particularly the oldest would be the first to go if ever replacement is considered and the only replacement PAF would want is non stretched variant C-130J as we have infrastructure in place perhaps the replacement might not be plane by plane and a room for 3-4 Y-20s could be considered by then knowing it carries 2 times more load than Super Hercules.


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## Genesis

Luftwaffe said:


> I don't think so Pakistan would go so soon for Y-20 but perhaps after a good numbers are operational with Chinese Air Force.
> 4 IL-78/4 CN-235/18 C-130s are more than enough for the next 12 years atleast but C-130s and particularly the oldest would be the first to go if ever replacement is considered and the only replacement PAF would want is non stretched variant C-130J as we have infrastructure in place perhaps the replacement might not be place by plane and a room for 3-4 Y-20s are considered knowing it carries 2 times more load than Super Hercules.



We are personally considering an average of 20-30 over 10 years, though to reach, 200-300 it would most likely take some 15 years, due to the fact, production goes up, as time goes by, it's not linear.

But Pakistan won't go for the Y-20 so soon I don't think, but here's the difficult part of guessing, I'm not sure what the Pakistan strategy is.

IS Pakistan on the defensive? Going on the offensive? Waiting for China then go on the offensive? Going on the offensive, and drag China in? Or just peace.

Each requires different strategies and different equipments. The terrain, the distance, the weapons needed, the enemy faces, all different. 


What do you personally think it is? What's Pakistan's strategy?

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## Luftwaffe

Genesis said:


> We are personally considering an average of 20-30 over 10 years, though to reach, 200-300 it would most likely take some 15 years, due to the fact, production goes up, as time goes by, it's not linear.
> 
> But Pakistan won't go for the Y-20 so soon I don't think, but here's the difficult part of guessing, I'm not sure what the Pakistan strategy is.
> 
> IS Pakistan on the defensive? Going on the offensive? Waiting for China then go on the offensive? Going on the offensive, and drag China in? Or just peace.
> 
> Each requires different strategies and different equipments. The terrain, the distance, the weapons needed, the enemy faces, all different.
> 
> 
> What do you personally think it is? What's Pakistan's strategy?



Pakistan is both defensive and offensive since the last 14 years, its not about dragging anyone. C-130J is ideal with Hercules infrastructure in place for the past 51 Years I highly doubt PAF would let go this particular platform in favor of any other.

One thing is certain oldest C-130s will be replaced by non stretched variant C-130Js but it depends on funds, in future by that time the price would come down even further through most likely FMS foreign military sales...but Pakistan might not go out replacing all C-130s with all newer C-130s perhaps this is my view instead of 18 in future only 10-12 are replaced the rest could be either some medium transport such as Brazil KC-390 with unit cost around 50-55m or Y-20 that around 2026-27 timeframe well enough 13-14 years not sure 80s, 90s production era C-130s would live that longer by 2025+. Than there is one reality IL-78 of PAF needs modernization like Engine upgrades, glass cockpit so my opinon again it could be better to go for something newer like Y-20 or KC-390 in limited number in joint roles like Tanker/Transport.


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## aliaselin

Luftwaffe said:


> Pakistan is both defensive and offensive since the last 14 years, its not about dragging anyone. C-130J is ideal with Hercules infrastructure in place for the past 51 Years I highly doubt PAF would let go this particular platform in favor of any other.
> 
> One thing is certain oldest C-130s will be replaced by non stretched variant C-130Js but it depends on funds, in future by that time the price would come down even further through most likely FMS foreign military sales...but Pakistan might not go out replacing all C-130s with all newer C-130s perhaps this is my view instead of 18 in future only 10-12 are replaced the rest could be either some medium transport such as Brazil KC-390 with unit cost around 50-55m or Y-20 that around 2026-27 timeframe well enough 13-14 years not sure 80s, 90s production era C-130s would live that longer by 2025+. Than there is one reality IL-78 of PAF needs modernization like Engine upgrades, glass cockpit so my opinon again it could be better to go for something newer like Y-20 or KC-390 in limited number in joint roles like Tanker/Transport.


KC-390 is too small compared to IL-78 and Y-20


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## Luftwaffe

aliaselin said:


> KC-390 is too small compared to IL-78 and Y-20



Just possibilities along with C-130s, KC-390 can carry max load of 23ish tons while C-130J stretch version 20 tons. From the price point as well KC-390 is 50m and could go as much as $60m compared to Y-20 which would cost around around 100m+ depending on configuration similar to the price point of re-engineered redeveloped Il-76MD90A what is it "il-470?". While both KC-390 and Y-20 have VTOL capabilities and a plus point. I don't think if PAF ever picks Y-20 it would not be in large numbers but maybe around 4-5.

The crux later in future...C-130s new variants would come in unknown numbers, along side either some medium airlift transport like KC-390 or heavy lift Y-20 seems to be the only possibilities other than that Pakistan can't afford A-400/C-17/unlikely to get any russian new transport...another point is Y-9 would never be considered since it is understood that C-130 infrastructure is in place for the last 50 years PAF is not abandoning it. Y-9 could be the only possible platform for AEW&C.


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## nomi007

the third prototype (20003? *S/N 783*) made its maiden flight on December 16, 2013


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## cnleio

WS-20 jet engine test for Y-20

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## Echo_419

Genesis said:


> We are personally considering an average of 20-30 over 10 years, though to reach, 200-300 it would most likely take some 15 years, due to the fact, production goes up, as time goes by, it's not linear.
> 
> But Pakistan won't go for the Y-20 so soon I don't think, but here's the difficult part of guessing, I'm not sure what the Pakistan strategy is.
> 
> IS Pakistan on the defensive? Going on the offensive? Waiting for China then go on the offensive? Going on the offensive, and drag China in? Or just peace.
> 
> Each requires different strategies and different equipments. The terrain, the distance, the weapons needed, the enemy faces, all different.
> 
> 
> What do you personally think it is? What's Pakistan's strategy?



Why does Pakistan even needs such large Aircraft

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## Beast

cnleio said:


> WS-20 jet engine test for Y-20



Finally reveal and I believe this photo is not new. Probably few years ago.

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## scholseys

China needs to reverse engineer some Canon cameras

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## Luftwaffe

Echo_419 said:


> Why does Pakistan even needs such large Aircraft



Why not, it has STOL Capabilities, carries more cargo for operations may it be war or humanitarian crisis. 

Although it is too early eventually it would be a good additional in the coming years, if you look most Nations ordered 2-6 C-17 III so here Pakistan is not going to add some 10+ merely 4 would be sufficient. PAF will always operated C-130s and newer variants would be opted in coming years no doubt about it.


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## Echo_419

Luftwaffe said:


> Why not, it has STOL Capabilities, carries more cargo for operations may it be war or humanitarian crisis.
> 
> Although it is too early eventually it would be a good additional in the coming years, if you look most Nations ordered 2-6 C-17 III so here Pakistan is not going to add some 10+ merely 4 would be sufficient. PAF will always operated C-130s and newer variants would be opted in coming years no doubt about it.



Well at the cost of a Y-20 you can afford 2 Y-10 & the range of Y-20 aircraft is to large where will you use it,better to go for more short range aircraft


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## Luftwaffe

Echo_419 said:


> Well at the cost of a Y-20 you can afford 2 Y-10 & the range of Y-20 aircraft is to large where will you use it,better to go for more short range aircraft



What makes you think Y-20 costs would be higher, it is not C-17 an over priced product, lets suppose the price 120mX4 is fair price for the Capabilities it provides. Our C-130s and IL-78 regularly goes to Europe. 

The question can be put to you C-17 inside India don't make sense when IL-76/AN series can do the Job No?


----------



## Echo_419

Luftwaffe said:


> What makes you think Y-20 costs would be higher, it is not C-17 an over priced product, lets suppose the price 120mX4 is fair price for the Capabilities it provides. Our C-130s and IL-78 regularly goes to Europe.
> 
> The question can be put to you C-17 inside India don't make sense when IL-76/AN series can do the Job No?



C-17 is far more capable than IL-76/AN series has far better availability rates the IL-76/AN series & we are getting the bang for the buck


----------



## Luftwaffe

Echo_419 said:


> C-17 is far more capable than IL-76/AN series has far better availability rates the IL-76/AN series & we are getting the bang for the buck



You answered it, that is what PAF could be looking for in the future "capabilities and price".


----------



## Echo_419

Luftwaffe said:


> You answered it, that is what PAF could be looking for in the future "capabilities and price".



C-17 replaced a plane of the same class,you are talking about replacing your C-130s with a different class of aircraft


----------



## Luftwaffe

Echo_419 said:


> C-17 replaced a plane of the same class,you are talking about replacing your C-130s with a different class of aircraft



No I am not talking about replacing C-130s with Y-20...PAF IL-78MRTT are multipurpose 4 for transports and air refuellers duties, with Y-20 those IL-78s would be fully dedicated to air refueller role as more new aircraft are rolling out. 

PAF most likely shall order C-130J non stretch version in coming years to replace most of older C-130s and we have been operating it for 50 years already there is infrastructure in place. As for now PAF requirements are fulfilled but in nxt 12+ years you can expect more and new C-130s and another transport platform it could either be Y-20 or KC-390.


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## cirr



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## Luftwaffe

cirr said:


> View attachment 52529



New Engines?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Luftwaffe said:


> New Engines?



Not yet ... IL-76 / 78 type thrust reverses are clearly visible.
Still flying with Russian engines.


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## IND151

cirr said:


> View attachment 52529



Its beauty................though slightly less beautiful than C-17 GM III.


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## Luftwaffe

IND151 said:


> Its beauty................though slightly less beautiful than C-17 GM III.



With a more rounded frontal shape and Engines like C-17 GM III nobody would be able to distinguish from the images, that's good China according to its requirements changed certain designs but over all inspiration is from C-17 since it is the best possible implementable efficient design. Even Japanese Kawasaki C-2 is almost detto of C-17 but with 2 Engines.


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## Beast

Y-20 latest promotion video

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## ChineseTiger1986

An Y-20 has tested with two WS-20 engines.

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## ChineseTiger1986

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> An Y-20 has tested with two WS-20 engines.
> 
> View attachment 152028



BTW, it might be two WS-20 engines being tested on an IL-76.


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## Rafi

Beast said:


> Y-20 latest promotion video



With the Y20 for heavy lift, and the Y30 replacing our old Hercules, we are all set.

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## 帅的一匹

The indigenous WS20 engine looks much bigger.

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## 帅的一匹

I can't just believe we are moving this far in turbofan engine field, congratulations!

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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> The indigenous WS20 engine looks much bigger.



The payload of the Y-20 will be comparable to the C-17 if it has installed with the WS-20 engines.

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## Rafi

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The payload of the Y-20 will be comparable to the C-17 if it has installed with the WS-20 engines.



That is awesome, the C17 has a payload of about 77 tons. The development of the Y20 is comparable to the development of both the stealth fighters, strategic airlift will bring the PLA - truly into global power status.

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## Sasquatch

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> An Y-20 has tested with two WS-20 engines.
> 
> View attachment 152028





ChineseTiger1986 said:


> BTW, it might be two WS-20 engines being tested on an IL-76.



It's the IL-76 look at the tail, the Y-20 has one like a lower case t like the C-17. But yea its two WS-20 tested on IL-76 which suggest that the WS-20 will be installed on faster.

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## Beast

Rafi said:


> That is awesome, the C17 has a payload of about 77 tons. The development of the Y20 is comparable to the development of both the stealth fighters, strategic airlift will bring the PLA - truly into global power status.



Max payload of Y-20 is 66tons. But thats becos its our military requirement since the latest Type99A2 is 54 tons while US M1A2 weights 72 tons. When WS-20 engine has refine,I bet 66tons payload will increase.

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## Rafi

Beast said:


> May payload of Y-20 is 66tons. But thats becos its our military requirement since the latest Type99A2 is 54 tons while US M1A2 weights 72 tons. When WS-20 engine has refine,I bet 66tons payload will increase.



Even a 66 ton capability is awesome, still would qualify as strategic airlift.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> May payload of Y-20 is 66tons. But thats becos its our military requirement since the latest Type99A2 is 54 tons while US M1A2 weights 72 tons. When WS-20 engine has refine,I bet 66tons payload will increase.



With the WS-20 engine, the payload will become over 70 tons for sure.

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## war is peace

Is the current engine 66 tons? then the ws-20 is 70 tons?


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## Ultima Thule

war is peace said:


> Is the current engine 66 tons? then the ws-20 is 70 tons?[/Q
> current capability of cargo carrying capacity of Y-20 is 66ton and future capacity will be 70ton


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## Ultima Thule

y-20


war is peace said:


> Is the current engine 66 tons? then the ws-20 is 70 tons?


with current engines its payload capacity is 66ton, with WS-20 it payload capacity is 70 ton.


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## yusheng

【高光时刻】---珠海航展2014 --- 运20重型运输机_视频在线观看 - 56.com

a highguality video of Y20

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Will this be also used as air to air refueler?


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## Beast

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Will this be also used as air to air refueler?


Definitely but it needs to be operational first as a basic military transporter before we talk about other variants.

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## conworldus

Rafi said:


> Even a 66 ton capability is awesome, still would qualify as strategic airlift.



66 Ton really is enough. Remember Chinese soldiers also weight less than American ones.

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## Beast

Insight of Y-20 and Y-9. Many close up interior photo of Y-9 medium transport aircraft.

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## nomi007

plz post cockpit as well as cargo bay images of Y-20 and Y-9


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## Deino

Seems as if cold-temperature tests are under way ...



> 1月21日网友拍摄的照片显示，国产军用大型运输机运20疑似现身北方某地，网友声称拍摄地点位于呼伦贝尔东山机场。从该机场的周围环境看，有着厚厚的积雪，运20可能在此进行寒区性能测试。（网友水君女拍摄）



=



> Photo taken January 21 online show, domestic large military transport plane delivered 20 suspected appeared somewhere in the North, Netizen claimed the location is located in the Dongshan airport in Hulun Buir. From the perspective of the airport's surroundings, with thick snow cover, shipped 20 may conduct performance tests in cold regions. (Online Grand female shooting water)



Deino

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## cirr

Congratulations on the successful maiden flight of the 5th Y-20 prototype：

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## Deino

The fifth ... does this include the static airframes or does it assume that there are already 5 flying ??

So far I know:

Aircraft no. 1 = 20001 - CFTE serial 781 (dark grey - nearly black)
Aircraft no. 2 = most likely static test
Aircraft no. 3 = 20003 (?) - CFTE serial 783 (light grey - seen at Zhuhai)
Aircraft no. 4 = 20004 (?) - reportedly finished in February 2014 but not confirmed so far


Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> The fifth ... does this include the static airframes or does it assume that there are already 5 flying ??
> 
> So far I know:
> 
> Aircraft no. 1 = 20001 - CFTE serial 781 (dark grey - nearly black)
> Aircraft no. 2 = most likely static test
> Aircraft no. 3 = 20003 (?) - CFTE serial 783 (light grey - seen at Zhuhai)
> Aircraft no. 4 = 20004 (?) - reportedly finished in February 2014 but not confirmed so far
> 
> 
> Deino



China transport testing is faster than we can grasp. We can bet they are already into very late stage of testing and ready to be inducted soon. Initial batch of Y-20 will be powered by WS-18.

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## Deino

Hmmm ... Yes it is amazing to see what progress has be achieved but to admit already 5 - without any proof that there is even a fourth Y-20 - sounds for me a bit too good to be true !

As such I'm a bit skeptical about this report...

Deino


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## cirr

WS-20

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## Beast

cirr said:


> WS-20


Shall be an old photo of last year or even latter.

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## j20blackdragon

cirr said:


> WS-20

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## 帅的一匹

WS20 is much diameter bigger than WS18, looks damn cool. What is the maximum ferry range of Y20 when WS20 installed?

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## Martian2

*Chinese Y-20 ferry range will increase to 8,800km with WS-20 high-bypass turbofan engines*



wanglaokan said:


> WS20 is much diameter bigger than WS18, looks damn cool. What is the maximum ferry range of Y20 when WS20 installed?







In the photograph, you see one large-diameter Chinese WS-20 high-bypass energy-efficient turbofan engine being tested. The other three are smaller-diameter, low-bypass, and less energy-efficient engines.

The current Chinese Y-20 ferry range is estimated at 8,000 kilometers.[1] With a 10% upgrade from the Chinese WS-20 engines, the ferry range should increase to around 8,800 km.

The regular payload of a Y-20 is about 60 tons, which is similar to the latest Russian IL-76.[2] The upgraded payload of a Y-20 with WS-20 engines is about 66 tons.[3] Hence, the inferred 10% WS-20 engine performance increase.

The WS-20 has a larger diameter due to its high-bypass and more energy-efficient turbofan engine design.[4]

----------
Citations:

[1] Y-20 Heavy Transport Aircraft | Military-Today.com
*"Ferry range ~ 8 000 km"*

[2] Y-20 / Y-XX / C919 Military Variant
"Russian sources suggested the Y-20 underwent a redesign in 2010 to enable it to lift the PLA’s heaviest armored vehicle, the 58 ton Type 99A2 main battle tank. *This would place the Y-20’s payload capacity around that of the IL-76 MF (60 tons payload capacity) and perhaps between the IL-76 MF and C-17 Globemaster (77.5 tons maximum payload), depending on the power of the engines available.*"

[3] Not As Sexy As Stealth, But Maybe More Important: China Shows Off New Cargo Planes | Popular Science
"The Y-20 is the largest aircraft ever built in China. Notably. If Boeing stops making the C-17 Globemaster III (another Zhuhai guest) as planned in 2015, the Y-20 will become the largest military airlifter in production. Currently, Xian Aircraft Corporation has flown at least two flying prototypes, "781" and "783" have been built ("782" is a factory static testbed). *The Y-20, despite being slightly shorter than the Russian Il-76, can carry a greater payload of 66 tons* at a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) of 220 tons, once domestic WS-20 turbofan engines replace the current Russian D-30 turbofans. The Y-20 will give the Chinese military to quickly deploy infantry, tanks, anti-air and anti-ship missiles throughout Asia, as well as humanitarian aid. The Y-20 could also be modified into an airframe for other strategic missions such as an Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C), an anti-satellite laser carrier, and aerial tanker."

[4] China's Y-20 'enters second phase of testing' - IHS Jane's 360
"Early service Y-20s would most likely be powered by the *12-ton thrust Russian Perm/Soloviev D-30KP-2 turbofans* that are powering its prototypes. *An indigenous high bypass turbofan has been flying on an Ilyushin Il-76 engine test bed aircraft for over a year. This engine is thought to be the 14-ton thrust WS-20*, which would allow the Y-20 to achieve its maximum cargo capacity of 66 tons."

*Calculation: [(14-ton thrust - 12-ton thrust) / 12-ton thrust] * 100 = 16.7% better Chinese WS-20 engine performance over Russian D-30KP-2*

[Note: Thank you to J-20BlackDragon for the Y-20 photograph.]

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## j20blackdragon

WS-20 Happy New Year

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## Martian2

China's Most Powerful Aircraft Engine Ever Takes To The Sky | Popular Science





*WS-20 Test Flight* | top81.cn

"The WS-20 engine is the one on the inner port (left side) of this Il-76 testbed. The China Flight Test Evaluation (CFTE) has an Il-76 for high altitude testing of Chinese engines, such as the WS-10 and WS-20. The WS-20 is wider and bulkier than the D-30 engines powering the IL-76, since it has a higher bypass ratio (meaning a wider fan) for fuel efficiency.

China's most powerful aircraft engine, the WS-20, is getting closer to finishing its tests. With a power output of 14 tons, the WS-20 will replace the less powerful and less efficient Russian D-30KP, which has only 10.5 tons of thrust. The WS-20 turbofan has been flying on this Il-76 test aircraft since 2014, and it's likely that aerial testing will wrap up in late 2015."





*WS-20* | bbs.huanqiu.com

"The WS-20 turbofan engine can deliver up to 14 tons of thrust, which makes it comparable to the CFM-56 engine that powers Airbus 320 and Boeing 737s.

China has made progress in replacing foreign engines for its fighter programs, but it still relies on the D-30KP turbofan to power subsonic aircraft such as the Y-20 heavy transport and H-6K bomber. The WS-20 is believed to derive its engine core from the WS-10A turbofan engine, which powers the Shenyang J-11B and J-16 strike fighters."

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## cirr

*Y-20 Comparision* _green-stone13.livejournal.com_ This speculative CGI compares the current Y-20 prototype with the smaller D-30 engines at the bottom, while the more powerful and efficient WS-20 engined Y-20 is at the top.

The WS-20 entering into Chinese service would provide performance boosts to the Y-20, increasing its payload to 66 tons from the prototype's 50 tons. That would give China the ability to fly heavy battle tanks and missile launchers across the Asian continent, as well as a larger Y-20-based aerial tanker. The WS-20 could also be a domestic powerplant for military derivatives of the C919 jetliner, which would be used for airborne warning and control, and anti-submarine missions.

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## SOHEIL



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## Oracle

(y)


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## Deino

Another new image of the Il-76 engine testbed + WS-20 !

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## SOHEIL

Deino said:


> Another new image of the Il-76 engine testbed + WS-20 !
> 
> View attachment 202230



Good boys never smoke !

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

SOHEIL said:


> Good boys never smoke !


 
lol you just put me to shame


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## SOHEIL

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> lol you just put me to shame


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## nomi007

share cargo bay and cockpit images


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## cirr

Y-X0？？？

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

cirr said:


> Y-X0？？？


 
LMAO..that is quite brainstorming and imaginative design, it looks cool and I like it but 4 engines strapped to the fugelage are bit risky.

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## masud

cirr said:


> Y-X0？？？


what is that?............

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## terranMarine

Too much sci-fi movies?


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## Stealth

Sexiest


cirr said:


> Y-X0？？？



The design beat ALL US Military weapons designs,m shape.. whata SEXIEST beat eva seen


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## longlong

cirr said:


> Y-X0？？？


Impressive. It's doable. Go, China!


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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> LMAO..that is quite brainstorming and imaginative design, it looks cool and I like it but 4 engines strapped to the fugelage are bit risky.


Less drag and improve aerodynamic and performance without the new of a powerful engine. 4 x WS-18 which can support this beast with a payload of 92tons?

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## qwerrty

this russian concept is more sexier

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Less drag and improve aerodynamic and performance without the new of a powerful engine. 4 x WS-18 which can support this beast with a payload of 92tons?




But why the old WS-18, which is nothing more than a Chinese-build version of the original Russian D-30KP-2 ??? IMI it must be at least something a class above the WS-20 ... and if You look closely this beast is inspired by the An-225, which uses 6 D-18T turbofans with a thrust of 229,85 kN each ... as such only four engines would have to reach at least 345 kN, or roughly equal to a 2 PW4077 (356 kN) or a RR Trent 877 (351 kN) or a GE90-77B (363 kN) as used in the B777.

As such even the capable WS-20 for the would be much too weak ...

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## Beast

Deino said:


> But why the old WS-18, which is nothing more than a Chinese-build version of the original Russian D-30KP-2 ??? IMI it must be at least something a class above the WS-20 ... and if You look closely this beast is inspired by the An-225, which uses 6 D-18T turbofans with a thrust of 229,85 kN each ... as such only four engines would have to reach at least 345 kN, or roughly equal to a 2 PW4077 (356 kN) or a RR Trent 877 (351 kN) or a GE90-77B (363 kN) as used in the B777.
> 
> As such even the capable WS-20 for the would be much too weak ...


We are talking about different aerodynamic? Aren't we? From what I know from Chinese source. The WS-18 is not mere D-30KP-2. It has improve upthrust and lifespan. Not by a huge margin but definitely better.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> We are talking about different aerodynamic? Aren't we? From what I know from Chinese source. The WS-18 is not mere D-30KP-2. It has improve upthrust and lifespan. Not by a huge margin but definitely better.



Please explain: definitely better !!

Sadly again - as so often when You not agree with my posts like in the recent Z-10 tread - You don't give any specifications, You don't answer a question and You ignore arguments. By the way even if not a mere D-30KP even a "definitely better" version with new materials will never reach out the thrust requirement of this beast. So why a 1960s-based design if there is already a new generation under development ?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Please explain: definitely better !!
> 
> Sadly again - as so often when You not agree with my posts like in the recent Z-10 tread - You don't give any specifications, You don't answer a question and You ignore arguments. By the way even if not a mere D-30KP even a "definitely better" version with new materials will never reach out the thrust requirement of this beast. So why a 1960s-based design if there is already a new generation under development ?


It shall you be the one defending your stance when on WZ-10 when a whole batch of new one fitted with new EO line up outside the factory. While your ridiculous assessment of them being just refurbished is just sound so out of line.

WS-20 will eventually evolved into even civilian engine series for C919. 

WS-18 with D-30KP2 almost similiar and faster induction rate will no doubt solved the Y-20 urgent need w/o waiting for WS-20 engines.

its up to u to trust the Chinese forum source. Isn't the divine eagle started initial source also came from Chinese forum? Now it become reality with initial flight and photo.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> It shall you be the one defending your stance when on WZ-10 when a whole batch of new one fitted with new EO line up outside the factory. While your ridiculous assessment of them being just refurbished is just sound so out of line.
> WS-20 will eventually evolved into even civilian engine series for C919.
> WS-18 with D-30KP2 almost similiar and faster induction rate will no doubt solved the Y-20 urgent need w/o waiting for WS-20 engines.
> its up to u to trust the Chinese forum source. Isn't the divine eagle started initial source also came from Chinese forum? Now it become reality with initial flight and photo.



You are indeed funny … either You simply can’t argue or You don’t want to argue or – and that’s what so far is my conclusion – You simply have no clue, You have no proof other than links in some Chinese fora that simply fits Your opinion. Everything else is bashed down as anti-Chinese-propaganda, based on stupid or unreliable or anti-Chinese sources. But that’s not the way to discuss … Even more why should be a Pakistani-Forum more reliable than a Chinese one even if run in English ??

Sorry, but if I remember correctly in all controversial discussions we both had so far it is always this way:

WS-10 on J-20: You say it is a WS-10, even a WS-10G without giving a source, a link, no photographic proof or at least an argument that would assist Your claim, nothing. I in return explained that I’m not sure, that however all my observations, all external details and also many reports – and there are many widely different ones around – give a hint that it is an AL-31FN … but You only tell my sources are wrong, unreliable or stupid without giving any sources on Your own.


WZ-16 on Z-10: You say it is a WZ-16 (+ new sensors) without giving a source, a link, no photographic proof or at least an argument that would assist Your claim, nothing. I in return explained that I’m not sure, that however all my observations, all external details and also many reports – and there are many widely different ones around – give a hint that these are actually only refurbished pre-serials (even the serials number 1014 is another hint !). You not even give an argument why after a new fuselage was designed they returned back to the old heavier one. And by the way it’s not a whole batch there are only a few and these have not even an operational LH-serial. … but You only tell my sources are wrong, unreliable or stupid without giving any sources on Your own.


WS-18 suitable for that What-if transport: You argue that beast has better aerodynamics, that the WS-18 is a vastly modernized and improved engine and not a mere D-60KP … but You simply ignore that an old design with only roughly half the required thrust to propel such a 90t-cargo-capacity monster transport (to remind that is about 3/2 the amount the Y-20 is to carry) could use the same engines especially if more modern ones are already on the horizon ? … simply forget it.
As such I don’t know Your background, but I come from nature-science, Chemistry to be precisely, where I learned to argue, to proof a claim and not only to believe what fit’s my opinion. Sorry to say this, but in my opinion you're simply nothing more than a chatterbox who do not want to argue or who cannot argue simply because he has no arguments other than his opinion, and even more who is unfortunately too arrogant to accept anything else but the own opinion regardless how justified another opinion is.

But hey, it’s o.k. we are all free to have our own opinion if You want to stick in Your dream-world as a fan-boy it’s o.k. …. But don’t expect anyone to take You seriously anymore.

Have a nice day,
Deino

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## Bussard Ramjet

Deino said:


> You are indeed funny … either You simply can’t argue or You don’t want to argue or – and that’s what so far is my conclusion – You simply have no clue, You have no proof other than links in some Chinese fora that simply fits Your opinion. Everything else is bashed down as anti-Chinese-propaganda, based on stupid or unreliable or anti-Chinese sources. But that’s not the way to discuss … Even more why should be a Pakistani-Forum more reliable than a Chinese one even if run in English ??
> 
> Sorry, but if I remember correctly in all controversial discussions we both had so far it is always this way:
> 
> WS-10 on J-20: You say it is a WS-10, even a WS-10G without giving a source, a link, no photographic proof or at least an argument that would assist Your claim, nothing. I in return explained that I’m not sure, that however all my observations, all external details and also many reports – and there are many widely different ones around – give a hint that it is an AL-31FN … but You only tell my sources are wrong, unreliable or stupid without giving any sources on Your own.
> 
> 
> WZ-16 on Z-10: You say it is a WZ-16 (+ new sensors) without giving a source, a link, no photographic proof or at least an argument that would assist Your claim, nothing. I in return explained that I’m not sure, that however all my observations, all external details and also many reports – and there are many widely different ones around – give a hint that these are actually only refurbished pre-serials (even the serials number 1014 is another hint !). You not even give an argument why after a new fuselage was designed they returned back to the old heavier one. And by the way it’s not a whole batch there are only a few and these have not even an operational LH-serial. … but You only tell my sources are wrong, unreliable or stupid without giving any sources on Your own.
> 
> 
> WS-18 suitable for that What-if transport: You argue that beast has better aerodynamics, that the WS-18 is a vastly modernized and improved engine and not a mere D-60KP … but You simply ignore that an old design with only roughly half the required thrust to propel such a 90t-cargo-capacity monster transport (to remind that is about 3/2 the amount the Y-20 is to carry) could use the same engines especially if more modern ones are already on the horizon ? … simply forget it.
> As such I don’t know Your background, but I come from nature-science, Chemistry to be precisely, where I learned to argue, to proof a claim and not only to believe what fit’s my opinion. Sorry to say this, but in my opinion you're simply nothing more than a chatterbox who do not want to argue or who cannot argue simply because he has no arguments other than his opinion, and even more who is unfortunately too arrogant to accept anything else but the own opinion regardless how justified another opinion is.
> 
> But hey, it’s o.k. we all free to have our own opinion if You want to stick in Your dream-world as a fan-boy it’s o.k. …. But don’t expect anyone to take You seriously anymore.
> 
> Have a nice day,
> Deino





I know nothing about engines, yet I have upvoted your comment because I too have observed that anything mildly different from what some (and I stress some) Chinese desire here is shot down as Anti-China act/propaganda. 

For some Chinese here, touching Communist doctrine remains a blasphemy, and it is weird, because Communist doctrine was brought from Europe, most of the people in Chinese revolution had studied abroad. Not only this, for a long time the Mandarins in the Qing court kept rejecting any reform by using the excuse of Nationalism, and the authority of the son of Heaven, and pretty much like modern day Chinese kept resisting reform in the name of Chineseness. 

It all ended with continuous fall of Qing, and the intellectuals of the 20th century had a bitter disdain about traditional Chinese culture, who they thought at the time kept them down. This is the background with which Mao took power, and he inherited the disdain for Traditional Chinese Culture, and hence had no remorse in launching the Cultural Revolution. 

Cultural Revolution was the single biggest treachery against the Chinese nation, by far, because it was a conscious effort to wipe out Chinese tradition.


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## black-hawk_101

cirr said:


> Y-X0？？？



Competitor of C-5 Galaxy and An-225

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## black-hawk_101

qwerrty said:


> this russian concept is more sexier



A bit smaller one

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## Deino

But both - sadly - only nice conceptual artworks or what-ifs at best !


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## black-hawk_101

@TheFlyingPretzel 
Russians can make the both in reality with Indian Investment on board like MRT.


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## kuge

Deino said:


> You are indeed funny … either You simply can’t argue or You don’t want to argue or – and that’s what so far is my conclusion – You simply have no clue, You have no proof other than links in some Chinese fora that simply fits Your opinion. Everything else is bashed down as anti-Chinese-propaganda, based on stupid or unreliable or anti-Chinese sources. But that’s not the way to discuss … Even more why should be a Pakistani-Forum more reliable than a Chinese one even if run in English ??
> 
> Sorry, but if I remember correctly in all controversial discussions we both had so far it is always this way:
> 
> WS-10 on J-20: You say it is a WS-10, even a WS-10G without giving a source, a link, no photographic proof or at least an argument that would assist Your claim, nothing. I in return explained that I’m not sure, that however all my observations, all external details and also many reports – and there are many widely different ones around – give a hint that it is an AL-31FN … but You only tell my sources are wrong, unreliable or stupid without giving any sources on Your own.
> 
> 
> WZ-16 on Z-10: You say it is a WZ-16 (+ new sensors) without giving a source, a link, no photographic proof or at least an argument that would assist Your claim, nothing. I in return explained that I’m not sure, that however all my observations, all external details and also many reports – and there are many widely different ones around – give a hint that these are actually only refurbished pre-serials (even the serials number 1014 is another hint !). You not even give an argument why after a new fuselage was designed they returned back to the old heavier one. And by the way it’s not a whole batch there are only a few and these have not even an operational LH-serial. … but You only tell my sources are wrong, unreliable or stupid without giving any sources on Your own.
> 
> 
> WS-18 suitable for that What-if transport: You argue that beast has better aerodynamics, that the WS-18 is a vastly modernized and improved engine and not a mere D-60KP … but You simply ignore that an old design with only roughly half the required thrust to propel such a 90t-cargo-capacity monster transport (to remind that is about 3/2 the amount the Y-20 is to carry) could use the same engines especially if more modern ones are already on the horizon ? … simply forget it.
> As such I don’t know Your background, but I come from nature-science, Chemistry to be precisely, where I learned to argue, to proof a claim and not only to believe what fit’s my opinion. Sorry to say this, but in my opinion you're simply nothing more than a chatterbox who do not want to argue or who cannot argue simply because he has no arguments other than his opinion, and even more who is unfortunately too arrogant to accept anything else but the own opinion regardless how justified another opinion is.
> 
> But hey, it’s o.k. we are all free to have our own opinion if You want to stick in Your dream-world as a fan-boy it’s o.k. …. But don’t expect anyone to take You seriously anymore.
> 
> Have a nice day,
> Deino


i couldnt agree more...
some chinese members here either lost or lack the reasoning & thinking ability...same mentality as in cultural revolution

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## Bussard Ramjet

kuge said:


> i couldnt agree more...
> some chinese members here either lost or lack the reasoning & thinking ability...same mentality as in cultural revolution



I agree, some Chinese members here are Han Chauvinists, the same people both Sun Yat sen and Mao zedong warned against. They also have very wrong ideas about Cultural Revolution.

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## XiaoYaoZi

Shangri-La, Yunnan province.








@Deino

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## cirr

Both Y-20 and J-20 are set to join the ranks of the PLA very soon。

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## Beidou2020

cirr said:


> Both Y-20 and J-20 are set to join the ranks of the PLA very soon。



Got a year?


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## IR-TR

Anybody know how the indigenous engines for the y-20 are progressing? Those needed to fulfill the full potential of the y-20? I believe flight testing on a il-76/78 started in 2013.


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## cnleio

IR-TR said:


> Anybody know how the indigenous engines for the y-20 are progressing? Those needed to fulfill the full potential of the y-20? I believe flight testing on a il-76/78 started in 2013.


WS-20 engine was testing on a IL-76 platform

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## Beast

Without WS-20, there is still WS-18 which has passed all prelimnary test and is under going mass production now to support future Y-20 and H-6K and PLAAF fleet of IL-76. WS-18 has slight better thrust and longer lifespan than D-30K2 which is enough to fulfil China need.

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## JSCh



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## Deino

Nice ....

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## Stealth

After very detailed and long observation from past many years over Chinese Military hardware color scheme, unfortunately I came to know that Chinese are seriously lacking in Military hardware color combination sense.

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## Oracle

*Y-20 ‪‎transport‬ ‪‎aircraft‬ conducts high-altitude ‎test‬ in Yunnan*

‎BEIJING‬, --China is ready to test its Y-20 military transport aircraft over the Yunnan-Guizhou Plateau, according to photos uploaded to a Chinese military website, the Sina Military Network based in Beijing reported on June 23. The internet photos showed a Y-20 with serial number 783 at Lijiang airport.

*This is the first time Xian Aircraft Industrial Corporation will have tested the Y-20 in a high-altitude region*. With the atmospheric pressure lower than at sea level, the aircraft needs more speed to take off and the atmosphere and high local temperature also affects the thrust the aircraft's engine can generate.

As Lijiang airport is only 2,200 meters above sea level, the Sina Military Network said this is unlikely to be the final altitude test for the Y-20.

Photos uploaded to the internet earlier this year revealed the Y-20 undergoing testing in low temperature conditions at an unknown airbase in northern China.

Tang Changhong, the chief designer of the Y-20, said the aircraft will complete all tests in different conditions by the end of the year.


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## cirr

Oracle said:


> *Y-20 ‪‎transport‬ ‪‎aircraft‬ conducts high-altitude ‎test‬ in Yunnan*
> 
> ‎BEIJING‬, --China is ready to test its Y-20 military transport aircraft over the Yunnan-Guizhou Plateau, according to photos uploaded to a Chinese military website, the Sina Military Network based in Beijing reported on June 23. The internet photos showed a Y-20 with serial number 783 at Lijiang airport.
> 
> *This is the first time Xian Aircraft Industrial Corporation will have tested the Y-20 in a high-altitude region*. With the atmospheric pressure lower than at sea level, the aircraft needs more speed to take off and the atmosphere and high local temperature also affects the thrust the aircraft's engine can generate.
> 
> As Lijiang airport is only 2,200 meters above sea level, the Sina Military Network said this is unlikely to be the final altitude test for the Y-20.
> 
> Photos uploaded to the internet earlier this year revealed the Y-20 undergoing testing in low temperature conditions at an unknown airbase in northern China.
> 
> Tang Changhong, the chief designer of the Y-20, said the aircraft will complete all tests in different conditions by the end of the year.



This is 4411m altitude Aden Daocheng Airport。


----------



## BigDaddyWatch

Which one will go into production first ? The Y-20 or the Z-20 ?


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## Oldman1

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> LMAO..that is quite brainstorming and imaginative design, it looks cool and I like it but 4 engines strapped to the fugelage are bit risky.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> This is 4411m altitude Aden Daocheng Airport。




Is this another name for Inagi Aden Airport ?? ... and even more the previous images were said to come from Diqing Shangri-La !??

Confusion … now there are already four airports mentioned: Aden Daocheng Airport, Lijiang Airport, Inagi Aden Airport and Diqing Shangri-La !?? Can anyone help me out ??


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Is this another name for Inagi Aden Airport ?? ... and even more the previous images were said to come from Diqing Shangri-La !??
> 
> Confusion … now there are already four airports mentioned: Aden Daocheng Airport, Lijiang Airport, Inagi Aden Airport and Diqing Shangri-La !?? Can anyone help me out ??



Been to all the 4 airports。

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## Yukihime

Stealth said:


> After very detailed and long observation from past many years over Chinese Military hardware color scheme, unfortunately I came to know that Chinese are seriously lacking in Military hardware color combination sense.



unfortunately we dont have US coach to teach us about this; and ya know, when poor people starting get on track of a better life, the most un-important things would always be left as the last to be improved...

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## cirr

Y-20 #5 successfully completed its maiden flight。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Y-20 #5 successfully completed its maiden flight。



Yes indeed ... I hope anyone can correct me or give a better translation:

http://www.cannews.com.cn/2015/0702/127207.shtml



> ....
> *据悉，上半年，试飞中心圆满完成两型号定型试飞任务；某型运输机实现05架机首飞，并高效开展高寒试飞、大侧风试飞、高原试飞等重点任务*；新型歼击机多项目试飞持续推进；某型号完成年度武器发射试飞任务；多型武器靶试里程碑节点任务顺利完成；目标机优质高效的配试保障；AG600型号、C919型号试飞员培训工作取得阶段性成果；多地外场型号任务同时推进等。此外，上半年，试飞中心还成功组织了夜航试飞，针对各型号夜航试飞需求，于5月27、29日，集中安排了3个型号4架飞机的夜航试飞，高效完成了相关型号夜航试飞任务。
> ...





> ...
> Reportedly, first half of, Flight Center successfully completed two model stereotypes flight task; a type transport achieved 05 frame machine flew, and efficient carried out Alpine flight, and big side wind flight, and plateau flight, focus task; new fighter more project flight continued advance; a model completed annual weapons launches flight task; more type weapons target try milestone node task smooth completed; target machine quality efficient of distribution try guarantees; AG600 model, and C919 model test pilot training work made stage results ; Type tasks simultaneously, and the outfield. In addition, the first half of the flight test centre has also successfully organized a night flight, according to various models of demand for night flight, on May 27, the 29th, centrally arranged 3 model 4 aircraft flight test, efficient completion of model flight test mission.
> ...



However: is this airframe no. 5 or the no. 5 flying prototype ... and where is no. 4 ??

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Yes indeed ... I hope anyone can correct me or give a better translation:
> 
> http://www.cannews.com.cn/2015/0702/127207.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However: is this airframe no. 5 or the no. 5 flying prototype ... and where is no. 4 ??
> 
> Deino



The English translation is terrible.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> The English translation is terrible.


 
Yes I know but therefore I kindly asked for a better one or even a correction !


----------



## cirr

6th Y-20 maiden flight on 13.07.2015

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## Deino

cirr said:


> 6th Y-20 maiden flight on 13.07.2015




Really already the 6. aircraft ??? ... I thought that was the 5. !


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## Mustang06

Very nice!


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## cirr

Induction of Y-20 to begin in a few months！

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## Blue Marlin

cirr said:


> Induction of Y-20 to begin in a few months！


what!! few months. what engines do you use on them?


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## Beast

blue marlin said:


> what!! few months. what engines do you use on them?


WS-18, clone of Russia D30KP2 with higher spec like thrust and lifespan but the thrust will still be lower than WS-20.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> WS-18, clone of Russia D30KP2 with higher spec like thrust and lifespan but the thrust will still be lower than WS-20.




Any source for this ??

As far as I know testing for the WS-18 was just begun on the former KJ-2000 prototype on 29. October 2014 ... so I can't think that testing is already finished or even full production is initiated.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Any source for this ??
> 
> As far as I know testing for the WS-18 was just begun on the former KJ-2000 prototype on 29. October 2014 ... so I can't think that testing is already finished or even full production is initiated.
> 
> Deino


You do not know Chinese that is why you do not know lots of things. A lot of sources come from Chinese side or pictures with banner describing what is happening.

But if you do not believe, end of year you will see what operational Y-20 flies with. Definitely not WS-20.

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## Blue Marlin

will it will be exported?


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## Deino

Beast said:


> You do not know Chinese that is why you do not know lots of things. A lot of sources come from Chinese side or pictures with banner describing what is happening.
> 
> But if you do not believe, end of year you will see what operational Y-20 flies with. Definitely not WS-20.



Once again a typical beast-answer ! Instead of simply giving me my answer or a source You again blame me not to know or understand China , blablabla ...

Well done.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Once again a typical beast-answer ! Instead of simply giving me my answer or a source You again blame me not to know or understand China , blablabla ...
> 
> Well done.
> 
> Deino



I will mark this quote and you will eat your bl-adding at end of this year. You white man can never grasp what Chinese is doing.







I will never translate what those Chinese words talking about for you. Only for Chinese

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## Deino

And I will give You a warning due to trolling instead of discussing !

So either You change or arrogance or I will ban You ... any more questions ?

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> And I will give You a warning due to trolling instead of discussing !
> 
> So either You change or arrogance or I will ban You ... any more questions ?
> 
> Deino


You are abusing power for this thread. You yourself admit the test is held at oct 2014. That is almost 1 year ago. Why not WS-18 not be ready by end of these year for operation? From the Chinese forum talk, WS-18 is going very smoothly. It is not surprising since its design is utilizing a very mature DK30 origin. Why would you believe it needs extensive testing?

The recent launch of 6th Y-20 pt more or less shows Y-20 is going very well and operation can be expected end of year.


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## Deino

1. If I or anyone else asks You a question and if don't have an answer: shut up ... but do not provoke & troll around to know it better, to tell others stupid since they are not Chinese, period !

2. this reported 6. Y-20 is - at least following several reports (I know for You these are not sources but simply stupid non-Chinese foreigners) - most likely a false-report of only another flight of aircraft no. 5 ... also there are - again following several reports I have - probably not really 5 aircraft but only 4 since - similar to J-20 no. 2014 the number 20004 was omitted due to linguistic reasons. Otherwise, YES, these are rumours, but as likely rumours of havain in fact 6 aircraft flying, since they were also mentioned without an official or even semi-official report.

Have a nice day,
Deino

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## hk299792458

Agreed.

Talk with figures and facts, not "I guess that..." or "I suppose that..." or "Why not...", in which case it is not a discussion, but purely assumption.

I have only 2 official news that I guested are around WS-18

An article from AVIC by January 9th 2015, showing a picture with mention that "First flight sucessful"






And an article from CANews by April 7th 2015, detailing an on-ground engine test for engine n°1, 2 et 4 in Xi'an.






I'm not refusing information coming from insiders, some of them are relevant and proven. But this should be completed by official release, and on this particular point, I agree with Beast that it is not easy for non chinese speaker. However this should not be the reason to say "you do not know lots of thing". If you have solid source, share it, otherwise, let's discuss together.

Henri K.

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## cnleio

Beast said:


> I will mark this quote and you will eat your bl-adding at end of this year. You white man can never grasp what Chinese is doing.
> 
> View attachment 239935
> 
> 
> I will never translate what those Chinese words talking about for you. Only for Chinese


WS-20 engine for Y-20, that looks testing success. The left engine is domestic WS-20 in the pic.


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## Deino

cnleio said:


> WS-20 engine for Y-20, that looks testing success. The left engine is domestic WS-20 in the pic.




Sorry but that's surely not a WS-20 in that image ... it's the WS-18.

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## Deino

hk299792458 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Talk with figures and facts, not "I guess that..." or "I suppose that..." or "Why not...", in which case it is not a discussion, but purely assumption.
> 
> I have only 2 official news that I guested are around WS-18
> 
> An article from AVIC by January 9th 2015, showing a picture with mention that "First flight sucessful"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And an article from CANews by April 7th 2015, detailing an on-ground engine test for engine n°1, 2 et 4 in Xi'an.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not refusing information coming from insiders, some of them are relevant and proven. But this should be completed by official release, and on this particular point, I agree with Beast that it is not easy for non chinese speaker. However this should not be the reason to say "you do not know lots of thing". If you have solid source, share it, otherwise, let's discuss together.
> 
> Henri K.




Thanks a lot Henry ! Very much appreciated.

I surely can fully understand the reservations of Chinese members in regard to these "strange" non-insiders, Westerners or whatever. But to admit to simply tell them stupid without sharing a source is plain stupid too. Otherwise why are You then here in an English-language forum ?? To discuss and to share, to maybe even educate the ones who do not have that insight or understanding !

Deino

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## cirr

Brand new facility for the batch production of the Y-20 is in place：

鲲鹏先锋 我们的生产线，要站在行业的顶端 ——中航飞机西安飞机分公司部装总厂 打造先进装配生产线纪实 本报通讯员　白晓燕

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## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> Sorry but that's surely not a WS-20 in that image ... it's the WS-18.



Good observation. 




That is not a WS-20 turbofan engine. The WS-20 is much bigger and broader in dimension.

The WS-18 is basically the Russian D-30KP2 engine. I clearly remember a news report that says Russia licensed the production of this engine to China after China made a substantial purchase of the engine. 

And it is not unreasonable to assume that the rumor may be true as Russia is indeed using a more powerful version of the turbofan today. The designated PS-90A turbofan engines



for her latest transporters.

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## SOHEIL

cirr said:


> 6th Y-20 maiden flight on 13.07.2015

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## Pangu

SOHEIL said:


> View attachment 257484



I believe it's a fvck up PS piece. I guess the guy forgot to adjust the clone tool radius, lol.

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## SOHEIL

Pangu said:


> I believe it's a fvck up PS piece. I guess the guy forgot to adjust the clone tool radius, lol.



Shit happens

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## BoQ77

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> Good observation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not a WS-20 turbofan engine. The WS-20 is much bigger and broader in dimension.
> 
> The WS-18 is basically the Russian D-30KP2 engine. I clearly remember a news report that says Russia licensed the production of this engine to China after China made a substantial purchase of the engine.
> 
> And it is not unreasonable to assume that the rumor may be true as Russia is indeed using a more powerful version of the turbofan today. The designated PS-90A turbofan engines
> 
> 
> 
> for her latest transporters.



The new engine make me remember CFM engine.
Maybe it related to CFM-56 or CFM Leap 1C developed for Comac C919
Anyway it's psd. at least color changed.


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## Deino

Said to be no. 785 ... can anyone confirm !?

Deino


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Said to be no. 785 ... can anyone confirm !?
> 
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 263558



What kind of confirmation do you want?

@XXXXX--- is a journalist working for the PLA Daily，so。。。。

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## sheik

BoQ77 said:


> The new engine make me remember CFM engine.
> Maybe it related to CFM-56 or CFM Leap 1C developed for Comac C919
> Anyway it's psd. at least color changed.

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## CAPRICORN-88

BoQ77 said:


> The new engine make me remember CFM engine.
> Maybe it related to CFM-56 or CFM Leap 1C developed for Comac C919
> Anyway it's psd. at least color changed.


 Jumping to conclusion as usual. There is MAYBE. That is the WS-20 turbofan engine.

The picture is not PSed. There are many other pictures taken of the same plane as well from different angle.



sheik said:


> View attachment 263615
> View attachment 263616



Yes. Like these above.

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## cirr



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## Beast

Y-20 interior model display by AVIC during sept 2015 airshow. Since its depict by AVIC, the model replication shall be quite accurate compare to real Y-20 interior.

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## cirr

Y-20 inducted into a PLAAF division based in Qionglai

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Y-20 inducted into a PLAAF division based in Qionglai



But that's clearly the no. 1 serial 781 / 20001 ... I can't think that the PLAAF introduces a prototype into an operational frontline division.

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## shy@SJTU



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## Deino

shy@SJTU said:


>




The image is not visible (at least for me) ...however if You follow You link then it is.

Thanks for posting.

Deino


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## cirr

shy@SJTU said:


> View attachment 284816



All tasks concerning the development of Y-20 have been successfully accomplished:

中航工业--图片新闻

See paragraph 5.

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## Beast

I hope Y-20 is able to participate this year Sino-Russo exercise in Russia and airdrop our airborne unit.

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## Deino

Surely not ! Following the latest reports it is currently evaluated by the PLAAF at the 4. Division at Qionglai North ... to be ready this year in an international exercise is simply too early.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Surely not ! Following the latest reports it is currently evaluated by the PLAAF at the 4. Division at Qionglai North ... to be ready this year in an international exercise is simply too early.


I don't think the evaluation is long and the production plant is ready. I can predict mass production has already started 

PLAAF desperate need this baby to be operation for the fleet. The fact they buy used IL-76 shows how important strategic airlift is critical to PLAAF.

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## sheik

Some news about the status of Y-20 development from AVIC's official website:
中国航空工业集团公司

'2015年，航空业务发展亮点纷呈。航空装备研制生产再创佳绩。作为我国“三个大飞机”研制的主力军，圆满完成了大运研制的各项工作，大型水陆两栖飞机AG600全面进入总装，全力支持的C919大型客机顺利下线。民机和通用航空产业发展进入历史新阶段，“新舟”700获185架订单，首个部件下线，运完成适航取证。'

Not sure if it means finish of all development work or the work scheduled in 2015.
Anyway, at least it's going well.

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## Tipu7

sheik said:


> Some news about the status of Y-20 development from AVIC's official website:
> 中国航空工业集团公司
> 
> '2015年，航空业务发展亮点纷呈。航空装备研制生产再创佳绩。作为我国“三个大飞机”研制的主力军，圆满完成了大运研制的各项工作，大型水陆两栖飞机AG600全面进入总装，全力支持的C919大型客机顺利下线。民机和通用航空产业发展进入历史新阶段，“新舟”700获185架订单，首个部件下线，运完成适航取证。'
> 
> Not sure if it means finish of all development work or the work scheduled in 2015.
> Anyway, at least it's going well.


Translation plzzzzzz


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## sheik

Tipu7 said:


> Translation plzzzzzz



中航工业--集团要闻 (AVIC - Group News)

This is published on AVIC's official website under a special topic 'Salute to 2015, Embrace 2016' in which AVIC summed up its achievement and performance in the year of 2015. There is a paragraph mentioning Y-20, AG-600 (also known as TA-600) and C-919. The Y-20 part can be translated as follows:

In the year of 2015, AVIC successfully finished all development works of Y-20.

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## cirr

Y-20 788

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## nang2

cirr said:


> Y-20 788


Looks more like 786 to me


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## Beast

sheik said:


> 中航工业--集团要闻 (AVIC - Group News)
> 
> This is published on AVIC's official website under a special topic 'Salute to 2015, Embrace 2016' in which AVIC summed up its achievement and performance in the year of 2015. There is a paragraph mentioning Y-20, AG-600 (also known as TA-600) and C-919. The Y-20 part can be translated as follows:
> 
> In the year of 2015, AVIC successfully finished all development works of Y-20.



The rumour of Y-20 still being evaluate is simply nonsense. How can Y-20 still being evaluate if the design and development of Y-20 is finished and totally over. It Y-20 still being evaluate by PLAAF division and PLAAF airbone division suddenly not happy with the design and ask for modification. Who the hell is going to do it since the Chief designer has gone for other project as Y-20 development and design project is already declared over?

The truth is Y-20 has already enter production phase and accepted service, we will see service Y-20 very soon and hoped they will joined Sino-Russia exercise this year.

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## Deino

Sorry my friend, You are dreaming simply too much !

The latest AVIC statement did not confirm that ALL test - including operational testing, tactical exercises ... -were completed. In just about three years this is simply not possible with only four flying aircraft.
IMO this statement concluded the flight trails ... and now the PLAAF-testing will begin.

You sure will argue, the C-17 needed even less time but just take into consideration, how much experience the US have in building testing and operating large aircraft; for Chine it's a first.

As such even if already assigned to a front line unit, they won't use it at a joint exercise abroad so soon.

Deino


----------



## Beast

Deino said:


> Sorry my friend, You are dreaming simply too much !
> 
> The latest AVIC statement did not confirm that ALL test - including operational testing, tactical exercises ... -were completed. In just about three years this is simply not possible with only four flying aircraft.
> IMO this statement concluded the flight trails ... and now the PLAAF-testing will begin.
> 
> You sure will argue, the C-17 needed even less time but just take into consideration, how much experience the US have in building testing and operating large aircraft; for Chine it's a first.
> 
> As such even if already assigned to a front line unit, they won't use it at a joint exercise abroad so soon.
> 
> Deino


Ok, if you claimed so, how can development phase is consider close if further modification needs to be done? If PLAAF has not approved yet, development phase cannot be freeze and designer is gone. Who is in better position for further changes if evaluation fails? Since everything is close and designer is gone?

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## Akasa

Beast said:


> Ok, if you claimed so, how can development phase is consider close if further modification needs to be done? If PLAAF has not approved yet, development phase cannot be freeze and designer is gone. Who is in better position for further changes if evaluation fails? Since everything is close and designer is gone?



The developmental and evaluation phases are mutually exclusive (note: the evaluation phase is *neither *the test flight phase* nor* IOC). Test-flight involves the gradual evolution and improvement of the design/subsystems, usually at a civilian airfield, and is the phase in which actual design work is being carried out.

Evaluation is usually done after the aircraft configuration has settled (usually at the behest of the potential customer), and during which the final form of the aircraft is operated as if it were in active service; this is done to iron out any last-minute problems with either the inherent design (forcing CAC to make changes) or an individual airframe. This also allows the customer to assess the aircraft's collective capabilities during operational circumstances (which could not always be faithfully replicated during non-military testing).

It is important to note that, during evaluation, the aircraft *is not actually in service*, but merely subjected to the circumstances it will face as if it were operational. A successful evaluation paves the way for subsequent orders and *induction* of the said aircraft.

All aerospace products (including every individual airframe built by Boeing/Airbus/Embraer/etc.) goes through an evaluation phase, irregardless of when each aircraft type was "developed".


----------



## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> The developmental and evaluation phases are mutually exclusive (note: the evaluation phase is *neither *the test flight phase* nor* IOC). Test-flight involves the gradual evolution and improvement of the design/subsystems, usually at a civilian airfield, and is the phase in which actual design work is being carried out.
> 
> Evaluation is usually done after the aircraft configuration has settled (usually at the behest of the potential customer), and during which the final form of the aircraft is operated as if it were in active service; this is done to iron out any last-minute problems with either the inherent design (forcing CAC to make changes) or an individual airframe. This also allows the customer to assess the aircraft's collective capabilities during operational circumstances (which could not always be faithfully replicated during non-military testing).
> 
> It is important to note that, during evaluation, the aircraft *is not actually in service*, but merely subjected to the circumstances it will face as if it were operational. A successful evaluation paves the way for subsequent orders and *induction* of the said aircraft.
> 
> All aerospace products (including every individual airframe built by Boeing/Airbus/Embraer/etc.) goes through an evaluation phase, irregardless of when each aircraft type was "developed".



What happen if evaluation is not successful? Modification needs to be done? Remember Chief designer has left the post and Y-20 design is completed and is approved by top chain.

Then just let Y-20 left there and rot? Y-20 with or w/o the evaluation will enter service of PLAAF. Just wait and see Y-20 in service operation serial number this year.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> What happen if evaluation is not successful? Modification needs to be done? Remember Chief designer has left the post and Y-20 design is completed and is approved by top chain.



I think You over-dramatize the issue: When all flight test is completed no real major hiccups are to be expected; it simply means light-testing, airworthiness and so on is completed. As such no major redesign or modifications will be needed.

However it also means that the operational procedures are not finalised, the flight manuals for the crews are not completed and all that stuff to handle such a new bird for the maintenance crews at the operational bases are fixed. And that all will be doe at the OPEVAL ... as such before that s not finalised, the Y-20 will not be readied for true operational service ... and even more not on an international exercise.



> Then just let Y-20 left there and rot? Y-20 with or w/o the evaluation will enter service of PLAAF. Just wait and see Y-20 in service operation serial number this year.



You are funny ! You claim the PLAAF let all the serial J-10Bs with AL-31FN "rot" in order to wait for the WS-10B and we speak of now more than 70 aircraft Your logic !?

NO: they are operational in the same way the PAAF won't let these pre-serial or early serial Y-20s rot if the manuals are not fixed, it will further test them and probably use them with their limitations until everything is finished. Just look at the A.400M ..


Deino


----------



## XiaoYaoZi



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## XiaoYaoZi



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## cirr

XiaoYaoZi said:


>



788.

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## kuge

cirr said:


> 788.


7th batch no.88

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## Dungeness

So far, we have seen these 5 fuselage numbers. Anything missing?

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## Blue Marlin

Dungeness said:


> So far, we have seen these 5 fuselage numbers. Anything missing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 289286


no 782,784


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## Dungeness

So far, we have seen 5 chassey


Blue Marlin said:


> no 782,784



I think 782 is for static test. Never see 784.


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## Deino

Dungeness said:


> So far, we have seen these 5 fuselage numbers. Anything missing?




Actually, we have only 4 confirmed aircraft, since '20001' became 781, and then we have 783, 785 and now 788.

Deino

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## Dungeness

Deino said:


> Actually, we have only 4 confirmed aircraft, since '20001' became 781, and then we have 783, 785 and now 788.
> 
> Deino



I think you are right. 785 and 788 appear in the matter of couple of months, Y-20 may be close to series production?


----------



## High.Train

Dungeness said:


> So far, we have seen these 5 fuselage numbers. Anything missing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 289286



Where is 786 and 787?


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## Dungeness

High.Train said:


> Where is 786 and 787?



these two numbers skipped, no sure why.


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## Deino

The problem with these serials is that they are simply no Xi'an c/n's. The first serials '20001' was such a number but right after this first prototype was assigned to the CFTE it gained a CFTE-serial similar to the many other's we know: the Tu-204C testbed for the J-20 with serial 769, the famous Y-8-radar testbed 079, the KJ-500 '737', the Y-8GX-6 '731' and '732' even the new Z-20 has the serial '632'.

Usually the new prototypes within the same type of aircraft receive the same number so no. 01 Y-20 = 781, no. 03 Y-20 = 783 and most likely no. 02 Y-20 would have been = 782 if it was not the static test frame.

It could however also be that 786 & 787 are very different types.


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## Deino

There were indeed two yellow Y-20s in late December ...

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## Blue Marlin

i have been told initial serial production will begin later this year, is this true


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## Deino

I wouldn't be surprised if it already started ... just look at the GE-image posted a bit above showing two yellow Y-20s at XAC in late December.


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## cirr

*Y-20 789* took to the air for the first time a week or so ago。

It is possible that the new prototype is being put through test flights with 4 WS-20s。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> *Y-20 789* took to the air for the first time a week or so ago。
> 
> It is possible that the new prototype is being put through test flights with 4 WS-20s。




Are these reports or hopes that this prototype already uses WS-20 ?


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## Deino

Nice shot ... a Y-20 flying thru the rain !

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## cirr

Shaanxi Aircraft Industry seems to be working on the Y-30 judging by the following AVIC report：

中航工业--集团要闻

Or it could be the rumoured H-20？

Anyhow，the work is planned for completion during the 13th 5-year plan 2016-2020.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Shaanxi Aircraft Industry seems to be working on the Y-30 judging by the following AVIC report：
> 
> 中航工业--集团要闻
> 
> Or it could be the rumoured H-20？
> 
> Anyhow，the work is planned for completion during the 13th 5-year plan 2016-2020.




Interesting ... and very cryptically !


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Shaanxi Aircraft Industry seems to be working on the Y-30 judging by the following AVIC report：
> 
> 中航工业--集团要闻
> 
> Or it could be the rumoured H-20？
> 
> Anyhow，the work is planned for completion during the 13th 5-year plan 2016-2020.



Any news regarding the H-20? It was rumored that a 3D digital mockup has been completed.


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## aliaselin

cirr said:


> Shaanxi Aircraft Industry seems to be working on the Y-30 judging by the following AVIC report：
> 
> 中航工业--集团要闻
> 
> Or it could be the rumoured H-20？
> 
> Anyhow，the work is planned for completion during the 13th 5-year plan 2016-2020.


Don't think Y-30 has been a National Priorities Project

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## Pangu



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## hk299792458

I heard from CD forum that *Y-20* will move into operational trial this year

运20上胸章了-空军版-超级大本营军事论坛-最具影响力军事论坛 -

Henri K.

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## Akasa

hk299792458 said:


> I heard from CD forum that *Y-20* will move into operational trial this year
> 
> 运20上胸章了-空军版-超级大本营军事论坛-最具影响力军事论坛 -
> 
> Henri K.



Avec WS-20 engines ou D-30KPs?


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## cirr

789

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## Deino

3x Y-20 ....

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## Deino

Come on ... show us finally a Y-20 powered by a WS-20 !

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## S. Martin

The diameter of this mysterious engine looks much larger than russian D-30KP, does this mean its target thrust will be much bigger than D-30KP? Or at least potentially?

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## nomi007

any one have cargo bay pictures?


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## That Guy

Deino said:


> Come on ... show us finally a Y-20 powered by a WS-20 !
> 
> View attachment 297726


If they manage to get the WS-20 working on the Y-20, it'll be a major step for Chinese engines. You don't put a engine on such a big plane, if you don't have faith that it will work 100% of the time...or at least 99%.

Another thing to consider, it will also be an indirect boost for China's domestic civilian aviation industry.


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## aliaselin

That Guy said:


> If they manage to get the WS-20 working on the Y-20, it'll be a major step for Chinese engines. You don't put a engine on such a big plane, if you don't have faith that it will work 100% of the time...or at least 99%.
> 
> Another thing to consider, it will also be an indirect boost for China's domestic civilian aviation industry.



Your logic looks funny. Didn't IL-76 itself a big plane？


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## UKBengali

That Guy said:


> If they manage to get the WS-20 working on the Y-20, it'll be a major step for Chinese engines. You don't put a engine on such a big plane, if you don't have faith that it will work 100% of the time...or at least 99%.
> 
> Another thing to consider, it will also be an indirect boost for China's domestic civilian aviation industry.




Nah - as the Y-20 needs 4 engines then you can afford to take a greater risk as the failure of 1 or even 2 engines will not mean the loss of the plane.

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## That Guy

aliaselin said:


> Your logic looks funny. Didn't IL-76 itself a big plane？


Didn't the IL-76 have decades upon decades of experience behind it?


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## aliaselin

That Guy said:


> Didn't the IL-76 have decades upon decades of experience behind it?


So？


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## That Guy

aliaselin said:


> So？


My point exactly.


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## Deino

Concerning the WS-20 & Y-20 I'm sure at first we will see one of the prototypes with one engines replaced ...


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## XiaoYaoZi



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## BoQ77

Do you have the interior picture of Y-20 ?


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## Beast

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA...8c&scene=23&srcid=0422yITCdXX8XqVOw7pyVTT5#rd

D-30KP-2 : Max thrust 12500kg
WS-18A : Max thrust 13200kg (Up rated version of Russian D-30KP-2) better fan blade and higher compress pressure.

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## muhammadali233

Beast said:


> http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA...8c&scene=23&srcid=0422yITCdXX8XqVOw7pyVTT5#rd
> 
> D-30KP-2 : Max thrust 12500kg
> WS-18A : Max thrust 13200kg (Up rated version of Russian D-30KP-2) better fan blade and higher compress pressure.


But Y-20 smokes alot.Less than JF-17 tho.


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## Beast

muhammadali233 said:


> But Y-20 smokes alot.Less than JF-17 tho.


YEs yes, Pakistan can make what smoke less engine? Maybe Pakistanis can make Y-40 or WS-99 super engine?

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## Hyperion

Why are you entertaining an Indian false flagger....... by the way...... just an FYI, be very careful ridiculing Pakistan, friend or no friend, you don't want to be on our bad side either...............




Beast said:


> YEs yes, Pakistan can make what smoke less engine? Maybe Pakistanis can make Y-40 or WS-99 super engine?

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## Beast

Hyperion said:


> Why are you entertaining an Indian false flagger....... by the way...... just an FYI, be very careful ridiculing Pakistan, friend or no friend, you don't want to be on our bad side either...............


Whether a false flagger or not. I am here long enough and there are indeed a group of Pakistanis forumers who are very ignorant of Chinese. 








I want to see how Y-20 smoke as proclaim by some?


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## Beast

muhammadali233 said:


> We can if we will,but why?When someone else can cook the food for you why go in the kitchen?


As if you can? You what? Bragging or day dream? 

Loser get lost. You are good for nothing


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## Deino

*Can we stick to the topic please and not posting pure BS and national ranting?*

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Can we stick to the topic please and not posting pure BS and national ranting?


Then you shall banned the one start false post.


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## muhammadali233

Beast said:


> Whether a false flagger or not. I am here long enough and there are indeed a group of Pakistanis forumers who are very ignorant of Chinese.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see how Y-20 smoke as proclaim by some?


The smog is covering up for the smoke lol btw here are some Screen caps









If it was 1990s i would not have been complaining about smoke and stuff but the potential the Chinese have they could have done much better in the engine sector.I guess it will take another decade for the Chinese to come par with Pratt and Whitney or Rolls Royce Level of today.
I am no whiner I appreciate what is good, the aircraft looks amazing but the engines look straight from 1990's Il-76.


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## Beast

muhammadali233 said:


> The smog is covering up for the smoke lol btw here are some Screen caps
> View attachment 301835
> 
> View attachment 301836
> 
> If it was 1990s i would not have been complaining about smoke and stuff but the potential the Chinese have they could have done much better in the engine sector.I guess it will take another decade for the Chinese to come par with Pratt and Whitney or Rolls Royce Level of today.
> I am no whiner I appreciate what is good, the aircraft looks amazing but the engines look straight from 1990's Il-76.


You sure are quite ignorant. That engine shown is D-30KP-2 and that demo is done in 2014. Do you really what I am talking about? Now is 2016 and the operational engine for Y-20 will be WS-18A.

Even so, D-30KP-2 is consider one of the engine that smoke very little. The video I post proves that. Throughout the whole flight demo, there is no smoke for Y-20. I think you are just fault finding for no reason.


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## muhammadali233

Beast said:


> As if you can? You what? Bragging or day dream?
> 
> Loser get lost. You are good for nothing


I can make an equally ridiculing reply but i have some respect for ya lot and i want to stay that way.


Beast said:


> You sure are quite ignorant. That engine shown is D-30KP-2 and that demo is done in 2014. Do you really what I am talking about? Now is 2016 and the operational engine for Y-20 will be WS-18A.


That is Good.however the vid you posted was also from 2k14 ,so yeah got it.


----------



## Beast

muhammadali233 said:


> I can make an equally ridiculing reply but i have some respect for ya lot and i want to stay that way.
> 
> That is Good.however the vid you posted was also from 2k14 ,so yeah got it.


That's good. I think it just a misunderstanding from both of our view point. I apologize for my rant.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> Whether a false flagger or not. I am here long enough and there are indeed a group of Pakistanis forumers who are very ignorant of Chinese.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see how Y-20 smoke as proclaim by some?



No need to create the tirade against the whole Pakistan just because of few ignorant members.

BTW, the finalized version will be the Y-20 with the WS-20, and its takeoff capability will be increased by 10%.


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## BoQ77

another "will" made me confusing. I am keen to see Y-20 with all 4 domestic engines and a clear view at its interior


----------



## 帅的一匹

@Beast you shall allow different opinion even if they are not understand it. Be patient.



BoQ77 said:


> are you going to troll? WHY you bring Vietnam here?


Every thread I see you is seducing others trolling

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## rott

wanglaokan said:


> @Beast you shall allow different opinion even if they are not understand it. Be patient.
> 
> 
> Every thread I see you is seducing others trolling


Lol...


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## Deino

788 or 789 ... IMO 789 !

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## Deino

Hey ... seems as it there are now 4 Y-20 (IMO even five but only four spotted here) at the CFTE + is seems also as if the Il-76LL has now four WS-20 fitted ?

Deino

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## Tiqiu

I think this is Y-20 with 4 WS-20

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> I think this is Y-20 with 4 WS-20




No ... clearly not. It is one of the yellow Y-20s - so either 788 or 789 - ... the WS-20 powered IL-76 is the one on top. You can clearly see the larger engines.

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## Beast

Tiqiu said:


> I think this is Y-20 with 4 WS-20



WS-20 is not important for Y-20. WS-20 is more for future militarise C919.

WS-18 is more than enough for Y-20 unless PLA future MBT outgrow to 70tons monster


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## sheik

Beast said:


> WS-20 is not important for Y-20. WS-20 is more for future militarise C919.
> 
> WS-18 is more than enough for Y-20 unless PLA future MBT outgrow to 70tons monster



I see no reason that WS-20 won't be put on Y-20 to reach full design specs. It' much better than WS-18 on Y-20.


----------



## Beast

sheik said:


> I see no reason that WS-20 won't be put on Y-20 to reach full design specs. It' much better than WS-18 on Y-20.


Cheaper price and lower maintenance fee. Use only the necessity and not the best.


----------



## JSCh

*Deliveries of huge aircraft expected soon*
By Zhao Lei (China Daily) 09:56, June 03, 2016




The domestically developed Y-20 heavy-lifting transport plane will soon be delivered to buyers, a project manager said on Thursday.

The manager expects that China will need at least 1,000 of the huge aircraft.

"I can't tell you the exact time planned for delivery, but ... it will be carried out very soon," Zhu Qian, head of Aviation Industry Corp of China's Large Aircraft Development Office, said at a technology exhibition in Beijing.

"More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," he said, adding that the figure was calculated based on the experience of the United States and Russia. Both countries have used heavy-lifting transport aircraft for years.

Zhu said the military and many civilian sectors will benefit greatly from delivery of the Y-20.

The plane's engines will initially be imported, but it is only a matter of time before the Y-20 is equipped with domestically developed engines, he said.

China will also develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20 and comparable to the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy from the United States and the Antonov An-225 Mriya, designed in the former Soviet Union.

Wang Ya'nan, deputy editor-in-chief of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, said prototypes of the Y-20 have completed all planned tests, and AVIC will begin mass-production.

"Once the Y-20 joins the military, it will enable the Air Force to move closer to its goal of building a strategic air power," he said.

The Y-20, with a crew of three, made its maiden flight in January 2013, making China the third nation after the US and Russia capable of developing strategic transport aircraft.

The plane has a maximum payload of 66 metric tons and a maximum takeoff weight of more than 200 tons, according to military sources. The high payload means it can carry the PLA's heaviest tank, the 58-ton Type-99A2.

According to a technical evaluation in Aerospace Knowledge, the Y-20 when fully fueled and carrying a payload of 51 tons can fly for 5,200 kilometers. This means it can reach everywhere in Europe and Asia, the US state of Alaska, Australia and North Africa.

With its maximum payload, it has a range of 3,700 km, enabling it to fly nonstop from Harbin in Heilongjiang province to Lhasa in the Tibet autonomous region, the report said.

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## nang2

JSCh said:


> *Deliveries of huge aircraft expected soon*
> By Zhao Lei (China Daily) 09:56, June 03, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The domestically developed Y-20 heavy-lifting transport plane will soon be delivered to buyers, a project manager said on Thursday.
> 
> The manager expects that China will need at least 1,000 of the huge aircraft.
> 
> "I can't tell you the exact time planned for delivery, but ... it will be carried out very soon," Zhu Qian, head of Aviation Industry Corp of China's Large Aircraft Development Office, said at a technology exhibition in Beijing.
> 
> "More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," he said, adding that the figure was calculated based on the experience of the United States and Russia. Both countries have used heavy-lifting transport aircraft for years.
> 
> Zhu said the military and many civilian sectors will benefit greatly from delivery of the Y-20.
> 
> The plane's engines will initially be imported, but it is only a matter of time before the Y-20 is equipped with domestically developed engines, he said.
> 
> China will also develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20 and comparable to the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy from the United States and the Antonov An-225 Mriya, designed in the former Soviet Union.
> 
> Wang Ya'nan, deputy editor-in-chief of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, said prototypes of the Y-20 have completed all planned tests, and AVIC will begin mass-production.
> 
> "Once the Y-20 joins the military, it will enable the Air Force to move closer to its goal of building a strategic air power," he said.
> 
> The Y-20, with a crew of three, made its maiden flight in January 2013, making China the third nation after the US and Russia capable of developing strategic transport aircraft.
> 
> The plane has a maximum payload of 66 metric tons and a maximum takeoff weight of more than 200 tons, according to military sources. The high payload means it can carry the PLA's heaviest tank, the 58-ton Type-99A2.
> 
> According to a technical evaluation in Aerospace Knowledge, the Y-20 when fully fueled and carrying a payload of 51 tons can fly for 5,200 kilometers. This means it can reach everywhere in Europe and Asia, the US state of Alaska, Australia and North Africa.
> 
> With its maximum payload, it has a range of 3,700 km, enabling it to fly nonstop from Harbin in Heilongjiang province to Lhasa in the Tibet autonomous region, the report said.


y20 is not c5 or an225 class.


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## Akasa

nang2 said:


> y20 is not c5 or an225 class.



As per the original statement: "China *will* also develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20 and comparable to the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy from the United States and the Antonov An-225 Mriya, designed in the former Soviet Union."

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## Blue Marlin

i thought the ws-18 was in use untill the ws-20 is ready? why is he mentioning importing engines


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## 21stCentury

SinoSoldier said:


> As per the original statement: "China *will* also develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20 and comparable to the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy from the United States and the Antonov An-225 Mriya, designed in the former Soviet Union."



This is the thing, why is China always seemingly so content with have matching or having similar capability or platforms as others? Sure, those things are the best in its class but why settle there? To be truly innovative, China should go beyond what is already present, and aim to create something totally new and revolutionary. This is the 21st century now, there are so many brilliant Chinese minds--utilize them! 

PRC should entourage companies to experiment with idea and crazy ideas.


----------



## vostok

JSCh said:


> China will also develop transport jets that are even larger than the Y-20 and comparable to the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy from the United States and the Antonov An-225 Mriya, designed in the former Soviet Union.


The author probably meant An-124 "Ruslan"




- competitor of C-5 Galaxy. An-225 "Mriya" is outside the categories. And only one was built.

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## DEFIANCE!

vostok said:


> The author probably meant An-124 "Ruslan"
> View attachment 308615
> 
> - competitor of C-5 Galaxy. An-225 "Mriya" is outside the categories. And only one was built.
> View attachment 308616


The giant of Aviation !


----------



## Imran Khan

waiting for this baby since long time


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## cirr

vostok said:


> The author probably meant An-124 "Ruslan"
> View attachment 308615
> 
> - competitor of C-5 Galaxy. An-225 "Mriya" is outside the categories. And only one was built.
> View attachment 308616



The actual wordings by Zhu Qian，the official who heads AVIC's Large Aircraft Office，are that China will push forward step-by-step the developments of 300-ton、400-ton and even 600-ton large transport airplanes following the successful completion of Y-20

Y-20‘s cockpit

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## cirr

Y-20's landing gear

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## JSCh

nang2 said:


> y20 is not c5 or an225 class.





vostok said:


> The author probably meant An-124 "Ruslan"
> View attachment 308615
> 
> - competitor of C-5 Galaxy. An-225 "Mriya" is outside the categories. And only one was built.
> View attachment 308616


In Chinese news report, Zhu Qian said will gradually advance to 300-ton, 400-ton, or maybe even 600-ton large transport aircraft. The c-5 or an-225 is probably added by the media to show examples of aircraft "larger than Y-20".

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## sheik

Beast said:


> Cheaper price and lower maintenance fee. Use only the necessity and not the best.



The saving on fuel can overweight the difference in cost, not to mention the gains in range and payload using WS-20


----------



## Zarvan

China requires 'more than 1,000' XAC Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft (model shown here), according to a Chinese aviation industry official. Source: Via Sina.com
During a 1-7 June technology innovation exhibition in Beijing, an official from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) told the _People's Daily_newspaper that China required "more than 1,000" Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft and that the country also plans to build transport aircraft comparable in size to that of the Antonov An-225 Mriya.

"More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," Zhu Qian, head of AVIC's Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.

While Zhu stated that this estimate "was based on the experience of the United States and Russia", he did not provide any further details. In 2014 the People's Liberation Army (PLA) National Defence University issued a report stating that China might require up to 400 Y-20 transport aircraft.

The _People's Daily_ also quoted a technical evaluation by China's _Aerospace Knowledge_ magazine as saying that the Y-20 can fly 5,200 km with a payload of 51 tonnes when fully fuelled. "This means it can reach everywhere in Europe and Asia, the US state of Alaska, Australia, and North Africa," the paper said, adding that the aircraft has a maximum payload of 66 tonnes and a maximum take-off weight of more than 200 tonnes, according to military sources. The high payload means it can carry the PLA's heaviest tank, the 58-tonne Type 99A2 main battle tank.

Zhu told the newspaper that China also plans to build "300-tonne, 400-tonne, and even 600-tonne aircraft". In this context a 600-tonne aircraft would approach the size of the Antonov An-225 Mriya and the Airbus A380.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options　**ihs.com/contact*




To read the full article, Client Login
(299 of 376 words)

http://www.janes.com/article/61026/china-needs-more-than-1-000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft

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## war&peace

Wow great development. China is developing full spectrum of aerospace products and that's the way to go. We should start planning about development of transport aircraft indigenuously with JV. Since China has plans for developing multiple versions of this airplane with different payload capacities so there is an opportunity to join one of them. It can also replace Pakistan's C-130H.

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Might be an extra '0', in the 1000 claim.0

For an aircraft comparable to the AN 225. There's a reason only 1 AN 225 was built. And even now it spends more time in hangers than lifting heavy cargo.


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## Muhammad Omar

Damn and what About Exports


----------



## Genesis

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> Might be an extra '0', in the 1000 claim.0
> 
> For an aircraft comparable to the AN 225. There's a reason only 1 AN 225 was built. And even now it spends more time in hangers than lifting heavy cargo.


could be, or it's nothing like AN 225. Had to be one of the two.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

World domination needs transport planes lots of transport planes

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## nang2

nuts!


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## Malik Alashter

There is for sure an extra 0 in that number.


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## Emperor_of_Mankind

China must be severely lacking in transport aircraft if it needs that many.


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## cirr

1000 Y-20 is bare minimum.

I hate it when Chinese officials are so conservative about almost any estimate.


----------



## nang2

cirr said:


> 1000 Y-20 is bare minimum.
> 
> I hate it when Chinese officials are so conservative about almost any estimate.


Consider US has 300 c5 + c17. What does china need 1000 y20 for? China doesn't have much power projection need as US. This thing costs money, you know.

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## Abingdonboy

Zarvan said:


> China requires 'more than 1,000' XAC Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft (model shown here), according to a Chinese aviation industry official. Source: Via Sina.com
> During a 1-7 June technology innovation exhibition in Beijing, an official from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) told the _People's Daily_newspaper that China required "more than 1,000" Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft and that the country also plans to build transport aircraft comparable in size to that of the Antonov An-225 Mriya.
> 
> "More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," Zhu Qian, head of AVIC's Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.
> 
> While Zhu stated that this estimate "was based on the experience of the United States and Russia", he did not provide any further details. In 2014 the People's Liberation Army (PLA) National Defence University issued a report stating that China might require up to 400 Y-20 transport aircraft.
> 
> The _People's Daily_ also quoted a technical evaluation by China's _Aerospace Knowledge_ magazine as saying that the Y-20 can fly 5,200 km with a payload of 51 tonnes when fully fuelled. "This means it can reach everywhere in Europe and Asia, the US state of Alaska, Australia, and North Africa," the paper said, adding that the aircraft has a maximum payload of 66 tonnes and a maximum take-off weight of more than 200 tonnes, according to military sources. The high payload means it can carry the PLA's heaviest tank, the 58-tonne Type 99A2 main battle tank.
> 
> Zhu told the newspaper that China also plans to build "300-tonne, 400-tonne, and even 600-tonne aircraft". In this context a 600-tonne aircraft would approach the size of the Antonov An-225 Mriya and the Airbus A380.
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options　**ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (299 of 376 words)
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/61026/china-needs-more-than-1-000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft


No way is this accurate, 1000 transport planes of this size for a nation of China's size is simply unthinkable and totally uneeded. What global footprint does China have to require such a number? 

As stated above, the USAF with global commitments and huge international presence only has 300 C-17 and C-5.

There must be an addtional "0" added here.


Thəorətic Muslim said:


> For an aircraft comparable to the AN 225. There's a reason only 1 AN 225 was built. And even now it spends more time in hangers than lifting heavy cargo.


It isn't. It is more in the class of the IL-76.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> China requires 'more than 1,000' XAC Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft (model shown here), according to a Chinese aviation industry official. Source: Via Sina.com
> During a 1-7 June technology innovation exhibition in Beijing, an official from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) told the _People's Daily_newspaper that China required "more than 1,000" Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft and that the country also plans to build transport aircraft comparable in size to that of the Antonov An-225 Mriya.
> 
> "More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," Zhu Qian, head of AVIC's Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.
> 
> While Zhu stated that this estimate "was based on the experience of the United States and Russia", he did not provide any further details. In 2014 the People's Liberation Army (PLA) National Defence University issued a report stating that China might require up to 400 Y-20 transport aircraft.
> 
> The _People's Daily_ also quoted a technical evaluation by China's _Aerospace Knowledge_ magazine as saying that the Y-20 can fly 5,200 km with a payload of 51 tonnes when fully fuelled. "This means it can reach everywhere in Europe and Asia, the US state of Alaska, Australia, and North Africa," the paper said, adding that the aircraft has a maximum payload of 66 tonnes and a maximum take-off weight of more than 200 tonnes, according to military sources. The high payload means it can carry the PLA's heaviest tank, the 58-tonne Type 99A2 main battle tank.
> 
> Zhu told the newspaper that China also plans to build "300-tonne, 400-tonne, and even 600-tonne aircraft". In this context a 600-tonne aircraft would approach the size of the Antonov An-225 Mriya and the Airbus A380.
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options　**ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (299 of 376 words)
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/61026/china-needs-more-than-1-000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft


i think theres a mix up here
it clearly says ' more than 1,000 heavy strategic transport aircraft' does that mean all 1000 will be the y20. i would mageine they would need about 400 of them 
and we have forgotten about the y-30 which is in the class of the a400/an-70 which is in development




and lets not forget the original article says they will build aircraft bigger than the y20 whichi would assume will be in the same class of the an-124


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## nang2

Blue Marlin said:


> i think theres a mix up here
> it clearly says ' more than 1,000 heavy strategic transport aircraft' does that mean all 1000 will be the y20. i would mageine they would need about 400 of them
> and we have forgotten about the y-30 which is in the class of the a400/an-70 which is in development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and lets not forget the original article says they will build aircraft bigger than the y20 whichi would assume will be in the same class of the an-124


Y30 is a medium transport aircraft. It is clearly printed on the fuselage. It is certainly not in heavy category.


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## Blue Marlin

nang2 said:


> Y30 is a medium transport aircraft. It is clearly printed on the fuselage. It is certainly not in heavy category.


strategic is a differant word than heavy and or medium.


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## The Sandman

1,000?  are you guys preparing for an invasion or something  JK


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## nang2

Blue Marlin said:


> strategic is a differant word than heavy and or medium.


So you are saying the key is the word "strategy". The word "heavy" doesn't mean a category, but in a literal sense. After all, they are all "heavy" stuffs that weight many tonnes, right? 



The Sandman said:


> 1,000?  are you guys preparing for an invasion or something  JK


And we are going to invade in kamikaze style.


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## The Sandman

nang2 said:


> And we are going to invade in kamikaze style.


----------



## jhungary

It is 2 months after April Fool, quite late to make such a joke.

I can concluded that the writer is either unfamiliar with the concept of Military Logistic or Military Science, or this is simply a joke article to have that Ha-Ha moment.







At first glance, to satisfy the bulk of Chinese Army (some 2.6 millions strong), you will need about that much to just go around, the problem is, if you want to mechanise an Army, you cannot just look at the number and say we need this much.

The basic premises is that those 1,000 T-20 is not going to fly itself, and they are not going to fix itself, so by having 1,000 Y-20, you will need 4-6 (2 crews, 1 flight, 1 relieve) pilot each, 3-6 crew chief and load master, and about 5-10 teams of mechanic to fix it, when you put 1,000 planes in, you are talking about 20-30,000 extra personnel, and seeing Y-20, like C-17, is going to be forward deployed, how are you going to deploy 20,000 or 30,000 extra personnel in a forward position in addition to the 2.6 millions soldier you have to support? I know, let's build another 100 Y-20............See where this going?

There is a reason why a global force like US Military can only afford 25% mobility. And now you know why.

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## cirr

The Sandman said:


> 1,000?  are you guys preparing for an invasion or something  JK



No no no.

We are NOT the US-led West.

We are a peace-loving country.

The PLA alone needs 400-600 Y-20s or equivalents.

Since the PLA already has over a dozen regiments each with 24 transport planes(mainly smaller aircrafts Y-12s, Y-8s and Y9s) and intends to expand the force further by creating new units, 300-400 Y-20s will be needed just for such purpose.

AWACS, refuelers etc based on the Y-20 also have a need for 100 planes. 

Plus civilian use(cargo planes ect) 1000 is an under-estimate in the long term.

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## lcloo

_"More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," Zhu Qian, head of AVIC's Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.

While Zhu stated that this estimate "was based on the experience of the United States and Russia", he did not provide any further details. In 2014 *the People's Liberation Army (PLA) National Defence University issued a report stating that China might require up to 400 Y-20 transport aircraft. ....."*_

Forget about what the head of aircraft development office said. I think that is just his own personal opinion.

The figure from PLAND University of 400 Y-20 is more realistic. The university is part of PLA, they know better than the aircraft builder's development office people.

However, if China will to open the production line for 30 to 40 years, 1,000 aircraft build during such duration can be achieved. Remember C-130 has been in production since 1954, more than 60 years.

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## cirr



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## Deino

cirr said:


>




Again only a black X ??? And even more strange http://bbs.meyet.com/ isn't available for me at all !??

Could You please upload it here ?

Deino


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## Blue Marlin

Deino said:


> Again only a black X ??? And even more strange http://bbs.meyet.com/ isn't available for me at all !??
> 
> Could You please upload it here ?
> 
> Deino


i can see it, here it is again it's uploaded on the pdf server so its gonna stay here even if the link is removed

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## Deino

Blue Marlin said:


> i can see it, here it is again it's uploaded on the pdf server so its gonna stay here even if the link is removed
> View attachment 309730




Thanks ... but that must be an older image. Following the latest image released from the CFTE it seems to me as if that Il-76LL uses now four of the WS-20s.

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## cirr

Induction into the PLAAF imminent

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## 星海军事

cirr said:


> Induction into the PLAAF imminent



天府之国


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## sheik

星海军事 said:


> 天府之国



2 Y-20 in 4th Division

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## cirr

Formally delivered and/or commissioned






#10

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## Deino

But are these indeed 1xx5x-numbered serial aircraft or a temporary assignment - as previously done - of two prototypes for operational testing and conversion training ?


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## cirr

We want frontal pics of the Y-20 with 4 WS-20 engines installed.!

Whoever has the pics pls....

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## Blue Marlin

cirr said:


> Formally delivered and/or commissioned
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #10


the engines are too narrow to be the ws-20 it would e the ws-18 as an interm engine

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## Oldman1

nang2 said:


> Consider US has 300 c5 + c17. What does china need 1000 y20 for? China doesn't have much power projection need as US. This thing costs money, you know.



Planning for the future.


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## Deino

Yes for sure and actually I can't think that the first operational birds will already use the WS-20 especially since no Y-20-prototype has been spotted with a WS-20 before.


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Yes for sure and actually I can't think that the first operational birds will already use the WS-20 especially since no Y-20-prototype has been spotted with a WS-20 before.



There is no doubt about the existence of Y-20 prototype with all 4 engines being WS-20.

People in possession of pics simply wouldn't risk being invited for a cup of coffee in a small dark room 20 flights of stairs down the ground level.

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## Deino

IMO this number is far, far, far too much exaggerated !

Not even the USAF or the RuAF have such a huge fleet of transports even if You add all C-17, C-130 and C-5 in the USA or in Russia Il-78 + An-12 + An-124.

I think indeed that the PLAAF will purchase a larger number - maybe 200 - to establish a strategic lift capability and to bolster its transport fleet not only for military but also other "national" assets like emergency and disaster missions, but alone my "small" number of 200 would require about 10-12 new or transformed divisions; at all a completely new force structure.

Overall I won't be surprised if the PLAAF and other national assets would purchase between 200-300 Y-20s and maybe a few more for civil transport operators + some for export, but surely far less of these reported 1000.

Just my 2 cents,
Deino


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## Deino

cirr said:


> There is no doubt about the existence of Y-20 prototype with all 4 engines being WS-20.
> 
> People in possession of pics simply wouldn't risk being invited for a cup of coffee in a small dark room 20 flights of stairs down the ground level.




Are You sure ? The GE-image I posted a few post above shows IMO clearly the four-WS-20-powered Il-76LL, but not a Y-20.


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## 星海军事

cirr said:


> We want frontal pics of the Y-20 with 4 WS-20 engines installed.!
> 
> Whoever has the pics pls....


786/787

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> 786/787




So You assume that already two Y-20 are converted to WS-20s ??

But wait: 786 and 787 ???

I thought only 781, 783, 785, 788 and 789 are confirmed !


----------



## 星海军事

Deino said:


> So You assume that already two Y-20 are converted to WS-20s ??
> 
> But wait: 786 and 787 ???
> 
> I thought only 781, 783, 785, 788 and 789 are confirmed !




And there is no Il-76 with four WS-20s.

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## Deino

One moment please ... and this one in the top-left corner ?






The only aircraft shown here with four wider engines is an Il-76LL and surely not a Y-20 ... just look at the wings, the length and other small details (like that small bump in front of the wings); it's the famous Il-76LL.





Or do You think on this image these are the old D-30s and their engine cowlings are open making the engines look wider ?

Deino


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## lcloo

New piece of unconfirmed news 10th Y-20 is ready for hand-over. Could this be one of first production batch to enter PLAAF service?


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> One moment please ... and this one in the top-left corner ?
> 
> View attachment 310058
> 
> 
> The only aircraft shown here with four wider engines is an Il-76LL and surely not a Y-20 ... just look at the wings, the length and other small details (like that small bump in front of the wings); it's the famous Il-76LL.
> View attachment 310062
> 
> 
> Or do You think on this image these are the old D-30s and their engine cowlings are open making the engines look wider ?
> 
> Deino






Shadow tells the secret

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## Arthur

Deino said:


> One moment please ... and this one in the top-left corner ?
> 
> View attachment 310058
> 
> 
> The only aircraft shown here with four wider engines is an Il-76LL and surely not a Y-20 ... just look at the wings, the length and other small details (like that small bump in front of the wings); it's the famous Il-76LL.
> View attachment 310062
> 
> 
> Or do You think on this image these are the old D-30s and their engine cowlings are open making the engines look wider ?
> 
> Deino


I think,it's a IL -76LL. Till now all the pic of an operational WS-20 was onboard a IL-76.If they think it's ready and want to install 4 engine at once, it's logical they will do it on a IL-76LL first.


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## sheik

Deino said:


> Are You sure ? The GE-image I posted a few post above shows IMO clearly the four-WS-20-powered Il-76LL, but not a Y-20.



That does not exclude the possibility of PLA having another Y-20 with WS-20.

I am not sure about the progress though.


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## 星海军事

Waiting for the big news

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## Deino

Me too.


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## Bussard Ramjet

Deino said:


> Me too.



And what is that?


----------



## BDforever

@cirr how many paratroops it can carry ? what is the price ? and will you sale this to us ?


----------



## 星海军事

星海军事 said:


> Waiting for the big news



This is the day.


----------



## lcloo

Waiting for picture......

CG photo????

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Waiting for picture......
> 
> CG photo????
> 
> View attachment 310399




Is this real ??? .. or was there was one again someone with too much time, an old image and his photoshop ??


----------



## lcloo

The photo itself looks real but it was stated as a CG picture by the poster in CJDBY.

However, this could be either the roll-out of first proto-type in 2013 or the first production aircraft in 2016. Can not find any existing photo that matched this one.

Only a clear photo to be released soon can confirm. So, just wait and see.



Edit: Actually the poster stated PS pic, not CG pic. My mistake.


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Is this real ??? .. or was there was one again someone with too much time, an old image and his photoshop ??



This is not a CG. Y-20 entered service today.

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## GS Zhou

星海军事 said:


> This is not a CG. Y-20 entered service today.


Nice, nice, nice!!!


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## lcloo

11051 and 11053 spotted? Real or just rumour?

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## cirr

Waiting for HD pics and video from CCTV tonight.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> This is not a CG. Y-20 entered service today.




Don't get me wrong and it's not the information itself I doubt but the image.
Much too often we have seen true reports "spiced" up by faked images - just remember that alleged FC-31.V2-images psed from that airshow model !? - and they even more likely appear the longer the hiatus between good & interesting images is.

As such I think it is not reprehensible to be cautious ...

Deino


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> 11051 and 11053 spotted? Real or just rumour?




If these numbers are correct it would indicate the 12th Air Regiment of the 4th Division Transport in Chengdu / Qionglai - a former/current Y-7-unit !



> 2016年6月15日下午十八时三十分，某新型战略运输机首批交付部队服役仪式在中航工业某试飞中心圆满结束。这是我国空军正式开始具备强大战略投送能力的重要标志。壮观的水门庆典等现场图欠奉，敬请期待。



http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2245959
http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1817218-2-1.html

Some say the first good images will be shown in the evening news ... so are they already ?

Deino


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Don't get me wrong and it's not the information itself I doubt but the image.
> Much too often we have seen true reports "spiced" up by faked images - just remember that alleged FC-31.V2-images psed from that airshow model !? - and they even more likely appear the longer the hiatus between good & interesting images is.
> 
> As such I think it is not reprehensible to be cautious ...
> 
> Deino



This is absolutely true.

Information we have now:

1. Y-20 entered service today and the ceremony was held in CFTE.
2. A rehearsal was also held in Qionglai. There is a high probability that there will be another ceremony and media coverage tomorrow.

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## cirr

Induction ceremony held and completed.

Pics to follow.

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## Pepsi Cola

damn.. I'm so excited

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## Beast

older images ...

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## Bussard Ramjet

Beast said:


> You are the one offensive and dare to shoot back at me? I just post photo and never say new and what did you post?
> 
> _But aren't these old images ??ß_
> 
> What is the meaning of those words? Did the forum say we can't post old photo? Who is being offensive? Get your facts, right! You mean moderator can anyhow twist words and accuse of others?
> 
> If your reply is just saying those are old photo, I am fine. But why do you need to questioning it?




Dude, calm down. I agree with Deino. I liked your post precisely because I thought that these are new photos. Posts are always seen in context, not isolated. Right now we are all talking about the induction of Y 20, and expecting photos from there. When someone posts photos during such time, the natural and logical instinct is to assume that new photos are being posted. 

It is all about the context.

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## Brainsucker

Well, Zhu Qian needs to sell his airplane. So forgive him for his effort


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## cirr

Here she comes






The first picture of a Y-20 handed over to the PLAAF unit in Qionglai, Sichuan.

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## Deino

Two more ...


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## SOHEIL

Congrats

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## Deino

Hmmm; found at the CDF ... not sure if an old one, but it has at least no CFTE serial and the poster is usually highly reliable.

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## cirr



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## Deino

I think slowly we are getting closer ....


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## cirr

This one is better - 11051.






Where is 11053?

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## Deino

cirr said:


> This one is better - 11051.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is 11053?




Ohhh please upload it here !!! I really non't know - maybe the CHinese internet security blocks my PC ? - but I only get:



> *404 Not Found*
> nginx/1.4.1




Deino


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Ohhh please upload it here !!! I realyl non't know - maybe the CHinese internret security blocks my PC ? - but I only get:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deino

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## SOHEIL

Awesome


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## Deino

Thanks a lot !

... but why do I have that strange feeling, that the PLAAF-symbol and that serial - esp. much too large - looks fishy ?

However if You compare both images, they are not the same. Just look at the flaps on the wing's trailling edge ....


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## Tiqiu

from another angle, but without serial no.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> from another angle, but without serial no.
> View attachment 310814




So it could be as if in the two previous images, the serial is added by photoshop ?!


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Thanks a lot !
> 
> ... but why do I have that strange feeling, that the PLAAF-symbol and that serial - esp. much too large - looks fishy ?
> 
> However if You compare both images, they are not the same. Just look at the flaps on the wing's trailling edge ....



There is a serial number, but it was photoshoped.

The second Y-20 will be arrived soon.

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## Tiqiu

If we are to believe this blog which only mentions the serial "01" is marked at the head of the plane, then it is more likely the big serial is the work of the photoshop.

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## Deino

Hmmmm ??!!!

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## SOHEIL

Deino said:


> Hmmmm ??!!!
> 
> View attachment 310842



PS


----------



## cirr



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## cnleio

1st Y-20 join PLAAF

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## Deino

So they have indeed changed the serials to huge yellow numbers !!

Congrats !


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## Beast

2016 will be the year of aviation for China. 

Y-20 will join Sino Russia Peace Mission 2016 in August to demonstrate the prowess of Y-20 and its powerful transport abilities.

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## SOHEIL

Congratulations again

Congratulations again

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## Beast



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## Deino

Another one ...

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## Deino

Nice artwork, even if I can't understand why he chose the wrong number 50260 !??







Another one ...

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## jkroo

Deino said:


> IMO this number is far, far, far too much exaggerated !
> 
> Not even the USAF or the RuAF have such a huge fleet of transports even if You add all C-17, C-130 and C-5 in the USA or in Russia Il-78 + An-12 + An-124.
> 
> I think indeed that the PLAAF will purchase a larger number - maybe 200 - to establish a strategic lift capability and to bolster its transport fleet not only for military but also other "national" assets like emergency and disaster missions, but alone my "small" number of 200 would require about 10-12 new or transformed divisions; at all a completely new force structure.
> 
> Overall I won't be surprised if the PLAAF and other national assets would purchase between 200-300 Y-20s and maybe a few more for civil transport operators + some for export, but surely far less of these reported 1000.
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> Deino



IMO, 200-300 planes is rational considering the urgent needs and production capabilities in 10 years.

In a long term, figures will definitely reach 1000 no matter there emerges new models in the coming years. Demands create products not the willingness. But the situations keep changing. Who knows. Just like C17 keep manufacturing for years and nobody can predict how many planes they will build eventually.

But it's a good signal to us that the Y20 lead the aviation industry to an new era.

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## 星海军事

2nd

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## cirr

星海军事 said:


> 2nd



11052. 

Where is 11053?

Where has it gone?


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## CD Scarecrow

here,my friend，i got more information abort this beautiful girl. she came from Yanliang and the ceremony was holded in Qionglai city Sichuang province.

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## lcloo

Another photo of second Y-20.

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## Deino

... and another new bird ....

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## cirr

Let's have 300 of these for starters. 

For three existing divisions plus 5-6 regiments.

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## Deino

What I would like to know is how many Y-20s have been produced so far ?

And any info on that reported no. 11053 ?? ... or was this simply mixed with 11052 ?


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## Beast

Once more than 10 Y-20 has enter service. China will become the 3rd most powerful airlift capable countries in the world.

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## lcloo

China currently has less than 30 units of large transport (not counting those IL-76 converted to AWAC aircraft), so an addition of 3 aircraft meant 10% increase.

We will see a great transformation in PLAAF airlift capabilities in next few months.

And I am very sure development of other variants in AWAC, air tanker and others will be carried out if not done already.

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## Beast



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## j20blackdragon



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## Beast

Given that 2-3 Y-20 enter service in June 2016. Hopefully by end of year, another 3 more could join.

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## Beast

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-2

First flight in 2010 and until now , haven even show a sigh of entering service. Initially brag about being Asia largest military produced transport plane and then claimed how advance blah blah blah...

Now.... Y-20 even enter service earlier

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## Deino

Zarvan said:


> China requires 'more than 1,000' XAC Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft (model shown here), according to a Chinese aviation industry official. Source: Via Sina.com
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/61026/china-needs-more-than-1-000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft




Here an IMO much more realistic estimation on the PLAAF's requirement:



> *Expert: No more than 100 Xian Y-20s will be deployed to troops*
> 
> http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0617/c98649-9073732.html
> 
> Recently, news that the first batch of China's Xian Y-20 large military transport aircraft has been deployed to troops appeared on Weibo and in online military forums. However, the news hasn't been confirmed by the PLA. People's Daily Online interviewed military expert Xu Yongling on this issue and according to him, no more than 100 Y-20s will be deployed to troops in the future and in the next five to ten years, China may develop its third generation military transport aircrafts.
> 
> According to Xu, if the Y-20 has been used to equip the troops, then it only takes three and a half years from the maiden flight to actual use. The A-400M transport aircraft of the Europe took six years for this process. Since the maiden flight, the Y-20 hasn't experienced any major technological difficulties; in addition that this transport plane doesn't need so many experiments as the fighters, so it is believable that the Y-20 will be deployed to troops in the near future.
> 
> Some media previously reported that the PLA needs over 300 Y-20s to better meet the strategic need of the air force. Xu disagreed, "I think the total number of Y-20s used to equip the troops will not exceed 100." This prediction is based on the transport needs of the PLA as well as the international strategic environment. Moreover, the cost is also a practical factor being taken into consideration.
> 
> "It is unlikely that we will invest so much in the second generation military transport aircraft. In the next five to ten years, China may develop more advanced third generation military transport aircraft, the loading capacity and delivery distance of which will be greatly improved from the second generation," Xu said.






Small and grainy but anyway nice ... I wish to see a nice and clear close up of that operational bird in the air !

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## cirr



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## Tiqiu



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## kuge

hoping to peek inside the cargo from the loading ramp....

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## Deino

cirr said:


>




Very nice, however I prefer that angled flag on the tail as shown on the prototypes.

What a beauty !!!

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## Imran Khan

Deino said:


> Very nice, however I prefer that angled flag on the tail as shown on the prototypes.
> 
> What a beauty !!!
> 
> View attachment 311488


i hate these engines


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## j20blackdragon

Why does the operational Y-20 have a dark color scheme and yellow serial numbers?

Is this the norm for PLAAF airlifters or support aircraft?


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## SOHEIL

Deino said:


> Very nice, however I prefer that angled flag on the tail as shown on the prototypes.
> 
> What a beauty !!!
> 
> View attachment 311488



This is a big big success !

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## Oldman1

Imran Khan said:


> i hate these engines



Why?


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## nang2

Oldman1 said:


> Why?


Too skinny. Some folks like it bigger.

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## Imran Khan

Oldman1 said:


> Why?


its look too old style and liek il-76 if it has engine like c-17 it will look cool

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## sheik

Imran Khan said:


> i hate these engines



You will see big engines on Y-20 soon

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## Beast

Imran Khan said:


> its look too old style and liek il-76 if it has engine like c-17 it will look cool


THose engines are not DK30-P2, there are domestic made Chinese WS-18 with uprated thrust and fanblade lifespan. That is why Y-20 payload is more than IL-76.

I have make a thread about it few months ago.

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## cnleio

Beast said:


> THose engines are not DK30-P2, there are domestic made Chinese WS-18 with uprated thrust and fanblade lifespan. That is why Y-20 payload is more than IL-76.
> 
> I have make a thread about it few months ago.


More looks like Russia DK-30 engines ... i think we still not read any news about the Y-20 engine, maybe those Y-20 used DK-30, later waiting for domestic WS-20 engines. If i doing this engine project, 1 step is import DK-30 or copy engine (WS-18), 2 step is developing domestic WS-20 engine, two ways running together for China Y-20.

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## cnleio

Y-20 vs C-17 vs IL-78 vs A-400 










2016-06-15 06.30pm 1st China Y-20 delivered to PLAAF 
2016年6月15日下午十八时三十分，某新型战略运输机首批交付部队服役仪式在中航工业某试飞中心圆满结束。这是我国空军正式开始具备强大战略投送能力的重要标志。壮观的水门庆典等现场图欠奉，敬请期待。

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## Deino

Does anyone know if this guy - Iron Eagle - has his own site ??


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## Beast

cnleio said:


> More looks like Russia DK-30 engines ... i think we still not read any news about the Y-20 engine, maybe those Y-20 used DK-30, later waiting for domestic WS-20 engines. If i doing this engine project, 1 step is import DK-30 or copy engine (WS-18), 2 step is developing domestic WS-20 engine, two ways running together for China Y-20.



WS-18 physical appearance is no difference from DK-30P2. China has stop importing DK30 engine since 2 years ago and the fact, Y-20 needs better engine. We can be sure its domestic made and not Ruisisn import.

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## lcloo

Found this bit of information from a poster in CJDBY. These are indirectly relevent to Y20 production during next few years.

Briefly, there are
around 20 IL-76 in transport role
4 in KJ-2000 AWAC role
2 as flying testbed
3 as fuel tanker
2 non-flying aircraft for testing and training.

A large number of these are refurbished used aircraft with limited life span left. 14 were imported in 1990s.

And this one regarding C-17 deliveries.







国内IL-76能飞和不能飞的真还不少

90年代进口14架，其中后来专职运输10架，4架成了KJ-2000
2000年A-50I项目机体1架，这架飞机目前在试飞院仍然充当预警机试验平台
90年代长春飞行学院搞到1架报废IL-76T，充当教学器具
2000年后研制预警机KJ-2000，搞来1架IL-76机体，不能飞
2000年后试飞院进口1架IL-76，发动机试验平台
2013年后开始从白俄罗斯、俄罗斯、乌克兰的退役封存机中淘旧货，大修，改装。进口IL-78加油机 3架，IL-76MD/TD到目前约9－10架，还在持续搜罗中

因此国内IL-76基本情况大概是
运输型 20架
预警机 4架
试验平台 2架
加油机 3架
报废机体 2架

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## S10

I think Y-20 is still a bit small in its dimensions and maximum cargo payload. I think they should aim to develop an enlarged upgrade soon, of which C-17 should be the measured against.

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## BoQ77

S10 said:


> I think Y-20 is still a bit small in its dimensions and maximum cargo payload. I think they should aim to develop an enlarged upgrade soon, of which C-17 should be the measured against.



China should make Y20 fly with full payload first.


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> China should make Y20 fly with full payload first.


Sourgraped spotted. When is Vietnam going to make a large transport aircraft. Year 2099?

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## BoQ77

no. Not sourgrape, I always keen to watch Y20 fly with full payload, it is even better if powered by domestic engines, but I dont know when. Why you want to ignore the fact that Y20 must be done first before any larger one to be developped?

Vietnam has not big demand enough for something like C17, and we have choice to buy a few of them from Western or Russia. So if we need one now, we will have it after 1 or 2 year.

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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> no. Not sourgrape, I always keen to watch Y20 fly with full payload, it is even better if powered by domestic engines, but I dont know when.
> 
> Vietnam has not big demand enough for something like C17, and we have choice to buy a few of them from Western or Russia. So if we need one now, we will have it after 1 or 2 year.


If you are keen , you shall know y-20 has already passed all Test require and achieving certification that included max payload test. The design phase is closed and project completed(See link below).

You are trying to imply shabby testing of Chinese or simply trolling by mentioning Y-20 still has not conduct any max payload test and hastily entering service as a failed product? You want me to quote back what u say? Or you want to edit your comment to try hide your shameful action? And even being a hypocrite by claiming you are concern for Y-20? What a pack of lies. More of a sourgrape. Too bad Vietnam is a poor and backward countries that cannot conduct such project in next 100 years.  you must be very jealous while shameful at the same time 


http://www.avic.com.cn/cn/xwzx/tpcl/421053.shtml

@Deino 
Please come and clean the thread. Some sourgraped is here to create problem again.

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## BoQ77

Show me the interior of Y-20 cargo bay, ok?
The cheaper, better way for Vietnam is purchasing some because that choice is available, ok?
Even India chose that way. not any bad choice.


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## cirr

grey boy 2 said:


> Are you physically or mentally handicap or both???
> Who should be responsible to spoon feed a troller like you???
> OH wait, what should i expected from proud citizen of a handicap race, who most famously for exporting their women for money as the co-called "BRIDE"
> Y-20 interest huh???
> Never mind any cheap purchase from a bottom feeder nation still depending military supplies from the "Vietnam War era"
> Bottom line is : you're simply dirt poor period



One's time would better spent reading a telephone directory than replying to trolls from that ungraceful country.

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## Tiqiu

In different paint

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## lcloo

Latest from GaoShan CG. These are updated version of his previous creations.

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## Tiqiu



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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Latest from GaoShan CG. These are updated version of his previous creations.
> 
> View attachment 311900
> View attachment 311901
> View attachment 311902
> View attachment 311903




Nice, but why completely wrong 6-digit serials ???


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## beijingwalker

*China's New Y-20 Is the Largest Military Aircraft Currently in Production*
The Y-20 is China's version of the C-17 Globemaster—a tank-carrying, supply-delivering, troop-transporting workhorse of a plane. 
By Jay Bennett
Jun 20, 2016





http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a21418/chinas-air-force-largest-military-aircraft-y-20/

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## beijingwalker

he first Xian Y-20 military transport aircraft was delivered to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) on June 15. Developed by Xian Aircraft Corporation, the Y-20 has an empty weight of 110 short tons, making it the largest military aircraft currently in production—larger than Russia's Ilyushin Il-76. Boeing's C-17 Globemaster III is bigger than the Y-20—the C-17's empty weight is about 60,000 pounds more than the Y-20 and its payload capacity is 25,000 pounds more—but production stopped in 2015, making the Y-20 the biggest that is currently rolling out of factories.


The Y-20—which has the official codename "Kunpeng" after a mythical Chinese bird, though it is nicknamed "Chubby Girl" for its appearance—makes China the third nation after Russia and the United States to design and develop its own heavy military transport aircraft.

The C-17 has been a major workhorse for the United States military since it was introduced in 1995, carrying troops and cargo all over the world. It allows the U.S. Air Force to quickly transport large amounts of supplies, move troops, fly large-scale air drop missions, and even transport other military vehicles such as an M1 Abrams tank, three IAV Stryker armored combat vehicles, or six M1117 Armored Security Vehicles. With the Y-20 officially in service—and the Y-20 is remarkably similar to the C-17—the PLAAF's versatility and ability to quickly mobilize large combat forces increases significantly. 







With a payload capacity of 73 short tons, the Y-20 can transport China's largest tank, theZTZ99, as well as a variety of other vehicles, supplies, or a large number of troops. The heavy transport is also ideal for large-scale airdrops and medical evacuations if necessary. The Chubby Girl has a range of 4,850 miles while carrying 40 tons of cargo, and 2,800 miles when fully laden.

Currently the Y-20 uses four Russian-made Soloviev D-30 turbofan engines, though the PLAAF plans to replace the engines with the Chinese-made Shenyang WS-20 turbofans by 2020 to give the Chubby Girl short takeoff capabilities and a greater range. In addition to functioning as a transport, the Y-20 could be outfitted as a refueling tanker for other military aircraft or used as a a strategic command center to coordinate fighter jets and drones in combat.

The first two Y-20s with the serial numbers 11051 and 11052 were delivered to the 12th Regiment of the 4th Transport Division at Chengdu/Qionglai, and several more are expected to enter service in the coming months. Centrally located around China's air base in Chengdu, the Y-20 could be quickly dispatched to wherever it is needed, from Korea to the South China Sea.

With tensions rising between the U.S. and China in the Pacific, the People's Liberation Army continues to make significant military advances.

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## BoQ77

Y-20 quite big, so it needs powerful engines.
About C-17, it ended its long production phase after 25 years.

Y-20 is the first design 3 decades after the latest design of heavy transport military aircraft which is C-17.

Why they all ended? there're some reasons after that.


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## Hamartia Antidote

BoQ77 said:


> Why they all ended? there're some reasons after that.



Because they built over 275 of them. That's plenty.





There's only 18 in this pic. You can imagine what another 260 would look like,


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## BoQ77

Yeah, because lack of order for C-17

Anyone heard about the upgraded C-5M Super Galaxy, they are still in production ?

The answer is Yes. Its payload nearly 130 ton, Wow










2x M1 Abrams


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## Genesis

Perpendicular said:


> China's copy culture on one side but it's manufacturing in defence sector is surely an achievement.
> All the credit where it deserves.





TheNoob said:


> no offense but the plane looks more russian than chinese. XD



It's taken liberties I'm sure. But the important thing is that it exists, and this adds a dimension to the Chinese power projection that only US and combined NATO has and Russia tried to have.

We'll do original things as time goes on. For now our first priority is fill in the gaps.

When all hell breaks lose, who can remember or cares what was original and what was not.

Let me also say, if we tried to actually innovate at this point, that would be a blatant disrespect to the US who has given consistent investments and effort in the field of military industry.

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## beijingwalker



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## S10

BoQ77 said:


> China should make Y20 fly with full payload first.


It's being introduced into service, which means all tests have been passed. That includes flying with maximum payload.

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## BoQ77

@beijingwalker : so the article author made the title isn't quite true, while C-5M Super Galaxy still in production ?
----------------------
*JOINT BASE SAN ANTONIO-LACKLAND, Texas (AFNS) -- * The saying “history repeats itself” has become all too familiar to the 433rd Airlift Wing, as hundreds of Airmen and distinguished guests gathered along the flightline here June 17 to welcome the wing’s first C-5M Super Galaxy, named “The City of San Antonio.”

The move makes the 433rd AW the first and only Air Force Reserve wing to receive Lockheed Martin’s modernized strategic airlifter.

Almost 32 years ago, a similar crowd gathered at Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, as the wing, then the 433rd Tactical Airlift Wing, welcomed its predecessor, the first C-5A Galaxy, also named The City of San Antonio, into the Air Force Reserve Command’s inventory.

“This is a remarkable day for the 433rd Airlift Wing,” said Maj. Gen. John C. Flournoy Jr., the Fourth Air Force commander, who piloted the aircraft to Lackland. “The opportunity to take an older aircraft and bring it up to today’s standards for aviation is absolutely phenomenal. This was my first time landing in a C-5M and let me tell you it flies like a dream. It’s absolutely a wonderful piece of modern technology in that cockpit, and it felt great.”

*This particular C-5M is the first of nine aircraft that will make up the wing’s fleet by late 2018.*

Tony Frese, Lockheed’s Air Mobility and Maritime Missions vice president, noted that the aircraft is superior to its predecessor, the C-5A, in every way.




Maj. Gen. John C. Flournoy Jr., the Fourth Air Force commander, followed by Col. Thomas K. Smith Jr., the 433rd Airlift Wing commander, depart the wing's first C-5M Super Galaxy on June 17, 2016, at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland, Texas. The crew flew the maiden flight from Stewart Air National Guard Base, N.Y., earlier that day before their arrival at the official aircraft transfer ceremony. (U.S. Air Force photo/Benjamin Faske)






Family members and invited guests walk onto the flightline to tour the 433rd Airlift Wing's first C-5M Super Galaxy aircraft, bestowed "The City of San Antonio," after the transfer ceremony June 17, 2016, at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland, Texas. The 433rd AW will receive nine C-5M models by late 2018, which is the result of a two-phase modernization effort that will improve fuel savings, climb rate, payload capability, and noise reduction. (U.S. Air Force photo/Benjamin Faske)


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## BoQ77

S10 said:


> It's being introduced into service, which means all tests have been passed. That includes flying with maximum payload.



Yes I see. Maybe pictures are in secret


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## A.P. Richelieu

beijingwalker said:


> *China's New Y-20 Is the Largest Military Aircraft Currently in Production*
> The Y-20 is China's version of the C-17 Globemaster—a tank-carrying, supply-delivering, troop-transporting workhorse of a plane.
> By Jay Bennett
> Jun 20, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a21418/chinas-air-force-largest-military-aircraft-y-20/



When the cat is away, the rats are dancing on the table - old proverb...


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## TaiShang

A.P. Richelieu said:


> When the cat is away, the rats are dancing on the table - old proverb...



Better yet, there are now more cats on the table and some of the old cats are given tough competition for the control over the rats that the old cat used to gobble up at liberty.

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## A.P. Richelieu

beijingwalker said:


> The Y-20—which has the official codename "Kunpeng" after a mythical Chinese bird, though it is nicknamed "Chubby Girl" for its appearance—makes China the third nation after Russia and the United States to design and develop its own heavy military transport aircraft.


Well You have the EuroFlag group including UK, France , Germany, Italy and Spain developing the A400M,
and Antonov is Ukraine, so I guess that leaves China in position #9. .

74 Years after the Gigant.


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## BoQ77

beijingwalker said:


> the Y-20 can transport China's largest tank, theZTZ99



I love to see the photo of this, the Y-20 take off with a ZTZ99 inside


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## Genesis

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Well You have the EuroFlag group including UK, France , Germany, Italy and Spain developing the A400M,
> and Antonov is Ukraine, so I guess that leaves China in position #9. .
> 
> 74 Years after the Gigant.
> View attachment 312199


we can be in position one million and that won't change the fact when it's all said and done, we along with the US will have the most capable air lift capability out there, due to the number we are willing to build. Far surpassing those that can before.

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## 21 Dec 2012

BoQ77 said:


> Yeah, because lack of order for C-17
> 
> Anyone heard about the upgraded C-5M Super Galaxy, they are still in production ?
> 
> The answer is Yes. Its payload nearly 130 ton, Wow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2x M1 Abrams


C-5M is an upgrade program. Production of C-5 ended in 1989.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Genesis said:


> we can be in position one million and that won't change the fact when it's all said and done, we along with the US will have the most capable air lift capability out there, due to the number we are willing to build. Far surpassing those that can before.



The time to brag is after the accomplishment, not before...

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## BoQ77

21 Dec 2012 said:


> C-5M is an upgrade program. Production of C-5 ended in 1989.



C-5M is the totally new design based on airframes with remain long service life. Nearly everything ( cost 90 million each ) is new and better than C-5A ,


> The C-5M Super Galaxy has a 58% faster climb rate, a 30% shorter takeoff roll, and a 30% higher cruise than the current C-5 (A, B, and C models). This allows the C-5M to carry significantly more cargo from more airfields, over greater distances, and with reduced dependency on aerial refueling.



C-5M is for operation until 2040, equal the service life some of first C-17 ( retired after 25 years of service )

so we can consider that's a new product, as with C-130J compare to original C-130.

The line continue to roll out ( 40-50 ) of the significant better C5M with 25-30 years of service life. Can we call it as the line ended ?
-----------
( I found no difference between a rollout C-5M and a Y-20. I wonder why China need so many Y-20, as said 400-1000 )


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## Genesis

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The time to brag is after the accomplishment, not before...


It is after, it's already inducted. It would be before if it's still testing. 

You know what's a brag, calling us 9th. A completely irrelevant fact btw, and also inaccurate (read the sentence very carefully, again and again until you see your mistake).

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## A.P. Richelieu

Genesis said:


> It is after, it's already inducted. It would be before if it's still testing.
> 
> You know what's a brag, calling us 9th. A completely irrelevant fact btw, and also inaccurate (read the sentence very carefully, again and again until you see your mistake).



So You claim that you have bigger transport capacity than Russia and the rest right now?
It is the claim that China is number #3 which is irrelevant and wrong.


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## Genesis

A.P. Richelieu said:


> So You claim that you have bigger transport capacity than Russia and the rest right now?
> It is the claim that China is number #3 which is irrelevant and wrong.



for someone so hell bent on a few choice words, you sure have a hard time understanding your own statement. Read the quote again, and see what makes China #3. I thought Scandinavian education is suppose to be good.

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## 21 Dec 2012

BoQ77 said:


> C-5M is the totally new design based on airframes with remain long service life. Nearly everything ( cost 90 million each ) is new and better than C-5A ,
> 
> 
> C-5M is for operation until 2040, equal the service life some of first C-17 ( retired after 25 years of service )
> 
> so we can consider that's a new product, as with C-130J compare to original C-130.
> 
> The line continue to roll out ( 40-50 ) of the significant better C5M with 25-30 years of service life. Can we call it as the line ended ?


The program is not producing any new air-frames. That is how production should be classified. It may re-engine, rebuild the aircraft, but that's not production.


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## BoQ77

21 Dec 2012 said:


> The program is not producing any new air-frames. That is how production should be classified. It may re-engine, rebuild the aircraft, but that's not production.



It's ok to call this or that.
At least, with the significant quantity of new rolling out aircrafts ( huge work as well ) and still not come to an end, we should consider that C-5 program still alive.



> LRIP started in August 2009 with Lockheed reaching *full production* in May 2011. 22 C-5M Super Galaxies have been completed as of August 2014. The RERP upgrade program is to be completed in early 2018.



Actually, statement of Y-20 would start to power PLA by great heavylift ability ( which is absent in the past ) is much more meaningful than statement that Y-20 is the largest design in production for heavylift.

To be frank, we should focus on the current and future capability of aerial ( and /or heavylift ) transport.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Genesis said:


> for someone so hell bent on a few choice words, you sure have a hard time understanding your own statement. Read the quote again, and see what makes China #3. I thought Scandinavian education is suppose to be good.



The statement :

"The Y-20—which has the official codename "Kunpeng" after a mythical Chinese bird, though it is nicknamed "Chubby Girl" for its appearance—makes China the third nation after Russia and the United States to design and develop its own heavy military transport aircraft."

is not so hard to understand, and it is easy to prove wrong, which I did...


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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> You shall Google more of C-5 Galaxy before thinking the bigger and heavier payload is better. This C-5 is so huge that it cannot serve front line airstrip and need smaller and more robust transport plane like C-17 and Y-20 type of transport plane to do the job. It need nice and smooth long airway to land. In wartime, such demand is a luxury.



Tell me, the take off / landing distance of Y-20 ?
As I read C5 designed for frontline operation which allow landing on dirt runway with length not more than 4000ft.


> Y-20 doesn't have the STOL capability of C-17 or A400M, thereby greatly limiting the number of spots where it could land. This changes the entire logistics strategy and hampers China's ability to wage a US-style war far away from its border.



Why you don't watch yourself a take off of C-5 ?





thrust reverser work on a C-5





on a C-17





C-17's cascades reverser redirects the thrust 360 degree around the engine, while D-30's thrust reverser is a less-efficient bucket type that redirects thrust left and right. This is why all the modern commercial jet engines have a 360 degree cascade thrust reversers.
D-30's ancient, less efficient thrust reverser.


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> Tell me, the take off / landing distance of Y-20 ?
> As I read C5 designed for frontline operation which allow landing on dirt runway with length not more than 4000ft.
> 
> 
> Why you don't watch yourself a take off of C-5 ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thrust reverser work on a C-5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on a C-17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C-17's cascades reverser redirects the thrust 360 degree around the engine, while D-30's thrust reverser is a less-efficient bucket type that redirects thrust left and right. This is why all the modern commercial jet engines have a 360 degree cascade thrust reversers.
> D-30's ancient, less efficient thrust reverser.



You seriously dont know what I am talking about?






Find me a video clip of C-5 landing on similar strip like this C-17. I eat back my words.

In wartime and frontline, you expect beautiful airway and smooth surface for your transport to land? Do you?

Y-20 is equipped with equal capabilties like C-17. If I can produced video clip of Y-20 doing such stunt of landing on dirt runaway in 6months time. You cease your account and stop posting. If I lose, I cease mine. Want to bet? Quoting some stupid website that dont know a thing about Y-20 doesnt make you a hero or smart.

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## nang2

TheNoob said:


> no offense but the plane looks more russian than chinese. XD


China is a late comer in modern military production. So, technically, nothing looks like Chinese.

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## Deino

S10 said:


> It's being introduced into service, which means all tests have been passed. That includes flying with maximum payload.




But this surely only for the "limited" MTO with the D-30KP or WS-20, since it is commonly accepted that the Y-20 will reach its projected full load of 66 t only with the final WS-20.


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## Genesis

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The statement :
> 
> "The Y-20—which has the official codename "Kunpeng" after a mythical Chinese bird, though it is nicknamed "Chubby Girl" for its appearance—makes China the third nation after Russia and the United States to design and develop its own heavy military transport aircraft."
> 
> is not so hard to understand, and it is easy to prove wrong, which I did...



Third nation to design and develop its OWN heavy military transport aircraft. During both those phases, the European one is joint, while Ukraine had significant help from the Russians. The most obvious indication other than statements is the fact Ukraine can no longer make or even maintain these aircraft now that Russians are not that friendly. 

China independently designed and developed this plane, which makes China the the third one to go about it alone.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Genesis said:


> Third nation to design and develop its OWN heavy military transport aircraft. During both those phases, the European one is joint, while Ukraine had significant help from the Russians. The most obvious indication other than statements is the fact Ukraine can no longer make or even maintain these aircraft now that Russians are not that friendly.
> 
> China independently designed and developed this plane, which makes China the the third one to go about it alone.


Nope the Me 363 Gigant was way before that, and Britain, Italy, Japan
has all developed heavy military transport way before this one.
Possibly also Canada.

As far as I understand, the engines of the Y-20 are Russian, and while China is developing an engine that might replace it, other comments about Chinese jet engine technology here on PDF, are less than positive.
Until You can show production with Chinese Engine, you are not on Your own list.

By the way, are You aware that Tokyo has the worlds tallest Tokyo tower?


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## BoQ77

I think someone loves titles, let them be proud of that.
The Mod Deino told us that, Chinese Y-20 doesn't reach the max payload ( but limited payload ) with Russian D-30KP engines. So Y-20 still not reach its own performance. It's too early to claim Y-20 has better payload than IL-76/IL-78 at this moment. Similar to claim J-20 reach its designed configuration.

I didn't say that Y-20 is worse or better than C-17, but D-30 engines have poorer thrust / thrust reverser performance, so it's quite clear that Y-20 would need longer runway to take off and landing, and there isn't clear evidence that it operates at max payload, so who could state how long the runway Y-20 need.

external blown flaps on C-17 for STOL , which is absent in Y-20












A.P. Richelieu said:


> Nope the Me 363 Gigant was way before that, and Britain, Italy, Japan
> has all developed heavy military transport way before this one.
> Possibly also Canada.
> 
> As far as I understand, the engines of the Y-20 are Russian, and while China is developing an engine that might replace it, other comments about Chinese jet engine technology here on PDF, are less than positive.
> Until You can show production with Chinese Engine, you are not on Your own list.
> 
> By the way, are You aware that Tokyo has the worlds tallest Tokyo tower?





Beast said:


> I am waiting for Sweden to develop a Y-20 similar size transport plane. Year 2099? Loser



No, they are winners. Have to put bundles of money to make ourselves giant military transport aircrafts isn't the best way to have some aerial transport capability.
Different from others, China has to build themselves or with support of Russia to have that capability.

Beside the manufacturing capability, there's a few countries have enough demand for military heavy lift aircraft to solely develop themselves a model. They can buy or share if they have demand, like some shared NATO C-17s, C-130.

US ended its production of C-17 with the reason NO ORDER from any branch of US Army, Airforce, Marines ... and foreign countries. There're some brand new C-17s in stock, available to sell too. Even Vietnam could ask for the sale.

Military transport isn't cost / effective like civil cargo airplanes, some countries choose to use dual use aircrafts.

No offense. China is still in early phase of making jet transport aircraft, even behind Japan.


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## jhungary

ummm.......The article is wrong........

The biggest Military Transport Aircraft still in production is An-124 from Russian Federation







This aircraft have a payload of 150 tons, which is more than twice as much as Y-20 Reported 65 tons payload (Which the number itself is doubtful)

This aircraft is still in production, Russian Air Force have 20+ in stock, with 14 in service and at least 6 in reserve, the latest order of An-124 is ordered by Volga-Dnepr Airline in 2014, with 5 orders.

Russian Air Force is planning to upgrade and order more of the An-124 before sanction hits in 2014, so, this would be the biggest military transport still in production and not the Y-20.

*And if we talk about simply the biggest military aircraft in production (not just transport), then, Boeing 747-8, Il-96 400-T and A-330MRTT would also beats Y-20 in both Empty weight and Max.Take off weight.* *Which makes Y-20 the 5th Biggest Military Aircraft Currently still in production after An-124, Boeing 747-8, IL-96 and A-330MRTT.*


The specification of An-124

*General characteristics*


*Crew:* 4–6 (pilot, copilot, navigator, senior flight engineer (+flight engineer, radio man) + 2 loadmasters)
*Capacity:* 88 passengers or the hold can take an additional 350 on a palletised seating system
*Payload:* *150,000 kg (330,000 lb)*
*Length:* 68.96 m (226 ft 3 in)
*Wingspan:* 73.3 m (240 ft 5 in)
*Height:* 20.78 m (68 ft 2 in)
*Wing area:* 628 m² (6,760 sq ft)
*Empty weight:* 175,000 kg (385,000 lb)
*Loaded weight:* 405,000 kg (893,000 lb)
*Useful load:* 230,000 kg (508,000 lb)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 405,000 kg (893,000 lb)
*Powerplant:* 4 × Progress D-18T turbofans, 229.5 kN (51,600 lbf) each
*Performance*


*Maximum speed:* 865 km/h (467 kn (537 mph))
*Cruise speed:* 800–850 km/h (430 kn (490 mph))
*Range:* 5,200 km (2,808 nm, 3231 mi)
*Service ceiling:* 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
*Wing loading:* 365 kg/m² (74.7 lb/sq ft)
*Thrust/weight:* 0.23

*Take-off run distance (maximum take-off weight):* 2,520 m (8,270 ft)
*Landing roll distance at maximum landing weight:* 900 m (3,000 ft)
Operated by

Russian Air Force (14 + more in reserve.[39] By 2020 it is planned total to upgrade 20 aircraft in the version of An-124-100M, including aircraft in storage. As of December 2014 the Russian Armed Forces Air Force received a total of 9 aircraft, which JSC " Aviastar-SP" in Ulyanovsk has upgraded.[40][41][42])

Military Transport Aviation
12th Military Transport Air Division – Tver (Migalovo);
566th Military Transport Air Regiment – Seshcha, Bryansk Oblast – Il-76, An-124;[43]

224th Air Detachment of Military Transport Aviation – Tver – An-124-100, Il-76MD;

Order by Volga-Denpr

http://www.airlinesanddestinations....-8fs-and-add-an-124s-to-boeings-supply-chain/

Xian Y-20 Specification


*Crew:* 3: pilot, copilot & load master

*Payload:* 66 tonnes[18] (145,505 lb)

*Length:* 47 m[31] (154.2 ft)

*Wingspan:* 45 m[1] ~ 50 m[31] (147 ft ~ 164 ft)

*Height:* 15 m (49.2 ft)

*Wing area:* 330 m² (3337 ft²)

*Empty weight:* 100,000 kg (220,400 lb)

*Max. takeoff weight:* 220,000 kg (485,000 lb)

*Powerplant:* 4 × turbofans
*Performance*


*Cruise speed:* Mach 0.75 (918 km/h)
*Range:* 4,500 km with max payload ; 7800 km with 40 tons ; 10,000+ km with paratroops. ()
*Service ceiling:* 13,000 m (42,700 ft)
*Max. wing loading:* 710 kg/m² (145 lb/ft²)


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## Blue Marlin

BoQ77 said:


> I wish China could steal C17 and its engines design to make Y20 better. DONT copy Russian IL76



since when did you become pro chinese?



jhungary said:


> ummm.......The article is wrong........
> 
> The biggest Military Transport Aircraft still in production is An-124 from Russian Federation
> 
> View attachment 312420
> 
> 
> This aircraft have a payload of 150 tons, which is more than twice as much as Y-20 Reported 65 tons payload (Which the number itself is doubtful)
> 
> This aircraft is still in production, Russian Air Force have 20+ in stock, with 14 in service and at least 6 in reserve, the latest order of An-124 is ordered by Volga-Dnepr Airline in 2014, with 5 orders.
> 
> Russian Air Force is planning to upgrade and order more of the An-124 before sanction hits in 2014, so, this would be the biggest military transport still in production and not the Y-20.
> 
> *And if we talk about simply the biggest military aircraft in production (not just transport), then KC-10 and A-330MRTT would also beats Y-20 in both Empty weight and Max.Take off weight.* *Which makes Y-20 the 4th Biggest Military Aircraft Currently still in production after An-124, KC-10 and A-330MRTT.*
> 
> 
> The specification of An-124
> 
> *General characteristics*
> 
> 
> *Crew:* 4–6 (pilot, copilot, navigator, senior flight engineer (+flight engineer, radio man) + 2 loadmasters)
> *Capacity:* 88 passengers or the hold can take an additional 350 on a palletised seating system
> *Payload:* *150,000 kg (330,000 lb)*
> *Length:* 68.96 m (226 ft 3 in)
> *Wingspan:* 73.3 m (240 ft 5 in)
> *Height:* 20.78 m (68 ft 2 in)
> *Wing area:* 628 m² (6,760 sq ft)
> *Empty weight:* 175,000 kg (385,000 lb)
> *Loaded weight:* 405,000 kg (893,000 lb)
> *Useful load:* 230,000 kg (508,000 lb)
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 405,000 kg (893,000 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 4 × Progress D-18T turbofans, 229.5 kN (51,600 lbf) each
> *Performance*
> 
> 
> *Maximum speed:* 865 km/h (467 kn (537 mph))
> *Cruise speed:* 800–850 km/h (430 kn (490 mph))
> *Range:* 5,200 km (2,808 nm, 3231 mi)
> *Service ceiling:* 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
> *Wing loading:* 365 kg/m² (74.7 lb/sq ft)
> *Thrust/weight:* 0.23
> 
> *Take-off run distance (maximum take-off weight):* 2,520 m (8,270 ft)
> *Landing roll distance at maximum landing weight:* 900 m (3,000 ft)
> Operated by
> 
> Russian Air Force (14 + more in reserve.[39] By 2020 it is planned total to upgrade 20 aircraft in the version of An-124-100M, including aircraft in storage. As of December 2014 the Russian Armed Forces Air Force received a total of 9 aircraft, which JSC " Aviastar-SP" in Ulyanovsk has upgraded.[40][41][42])
> 
> Military Transport Aviation
> 12th Military Transport Air Division – Tver (Migalovo);
> 566th Military Transport Air Regiment – Seshcha, Bryansk Oblast – Il-76, An-124;[43]
> 
> 224th Air Detachment of Military Transport Aviation – Tver – An-124-100, Il-76MD;
> 
> Order by Volga-Denpr
> 
> http://www.airlinesanddestinations....-8fs-and-add-an-124s-to-boeings-supply-chain/
> 
> Xian Y-20 Specification
> 
> 
> *Crew:* 3: pilot, copilot & load master
> 
> *Payload:* 66 tonnes[18] (145,505 lb)
> 
> *Length:* 47 m[31] (154.2 ft)
> 
> *Wingspan:* 45 m[1] ~ 50 m[31] (147 ft ~ 164 ft)
> 
> *Height:* 15 m (49.2 ft)
> 
> *Wing area:* 330 m² (3337 ft²)
> 
> *Empty weight:* 100,000 kg (220,400 lb)
> 
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 220,000 kg (485,000 lb)
> 
> *Powerplant:* 4 × turbofans
> *Performance*
> 
> 
> *Cruise speed:* Mach 0.75 (918 km/h)
> *Range:* 4,500 km with max payload ; 7800 km with 40 tons ; 10,000+ km with paratroops. ()
> *Service ceiling:* 13,000 m (42,700 ft)
> *Max. wing loading:* 710 kg/m² (145 lb/ft²)


they dont make the kc-10 any more

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## jhungary

Blue Marlin said:


> they dont make the kc-10 any more



............

Sorry.......My Bad

Then replace KC-10 with IL-96, Russian just ordered (or re-ordered) 2 IL-96 facing western sanction. And IL-96 400 TZ are some 20,000 Kgs heavier than Y-20.

Edit : Scratch that, actually,Y-20 is the 5th Biggest Military Aircraft, Boeing 747-8 was just named by USAF to be the next Air Force One in 2015. They will order 2 or 3 of them off Boeing Production Line.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDispl...ng-747-8-platform-for-next-air-force-one.aspx


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## rcrmj

A.P. Richelieu said:


> We do not need so many cargo planes so it does make sense for us.
> Where it makes sense, we are no losers, You are...
> 
> https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....-first-strike-falcon-joint-military-exercise/
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that we don't make stupid claims like the OP.
> 
> Also choosing a niche "Largest Military Cargo plane in production" is laughable.
> Who will be impressed with a statement : "I am the world fastest sprinter, now when Usain Bolt quit"...


the claim is not stupid, its a solid fact``and it is also triumphant and praisable if anyone can be the sprinter champion when Usain is retired, whats wrong with that ?`````according to your stupid and xenophobia theory, no sprinter can be celebrated with the title 'the fastest sprinter' after Usain, lol ludicrous```

as I said before, if you are playing like this, you European and Americans are always the rats after us the cats who left the table for a long sleep````prepared to receive more biggest this and best that coming from us in future, well, what can I say, we are just merely returning to the table, now a playground currently occupied by dozens of self-inflated rats``

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## jhungary

BoQ77 said:


> I think someone loves titles, let them be proud of that.
> The Mod Deino told us that, Chinese Y-20 doesn't reach the max payload ( but limited payload ) with Russian D-30KP engines. So Y-20 still not reach its own performance. It's too early to claim Y-20 has better payload than IL-76/IL-78 at this moment. Similar to claim J-20 reach its designed configuration.
> 
> I didn't say that Y-20 is worse or better than C-17, but D-30 engines have poorer thrust / thrust reverser performance, so it's quite clear that Y-20 would need longer runway to take off and landing, and there isn't clear evidence that it operates at max payload, so who could state how long the runway Y-20 need.
> 
> external blown flaps on C-17 for STOL , which is absent in Y-20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they are winners. Have to put bundles of money to make ourselves giant military transport aircrafts isn't the best way to have some aerial transport capability.
> Different from others, China has to build themselves or with support of Russia to have that capability.
> 
> Beside the manufacturing capability, there's a few countries have enough demand for military heavy lift aircraft to solely develop themselves a model. They can buy or share if they have demand, like some shared NATO C-17s, C-130.
> 
> US ended its production of C-17 with the reason NO ORDER from any branch of US Army, Airforce, Marines ... and foreign countries. There're some brand new C-17s in stock, available to sell too. Even Vietnam could ask for the sale.
> 
> Military transport isn't cost / effective like civil cargo airplanes, some countries choose to use dual use aircrafts.
> 
> No offense. China is still in early phase of making jet transport aircraft, even behind Japan.



Actually, US ended the production run of C-17 not because they have not enough order, C-17 can still make sales to foreign country and they have a pretty good market in it (just look at how quick the 10 white tails goes and you will understand)

Shutting down C-17 plants in long island is nothing more than a political decision, it is more about saving money and streamlining Boeing Military Aviation branch more than anything else. If US government were to put up C-17 for sale again, I can easily name a few foreign country that will make at least 50 order to pop up the production line again.

P.S. My brother works for Boeing, so...........


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## BoQ77

jhungary said:


> Actually, US ended the production run of C-17 not because they have not enough order, C-17 can still make sales to foreign country and they have a pretty good market in it (just look at how quick the 10 white tails goes and you will understand)
> 
> Shutting down C-17 plants in long island is nothing more than a political decision, it is more about saving money and streamlining Boeing Military Aviation branch more than anything else. If US government were to put up C-17 for sale again, I can easily name a few foreign country that will make at least 50 order to pop up the production line again.
> 
> P.S. My brother works for Boeing, so...........



I think, the "largest currently in production" is funny term. But it's meaningful to the newbie when they get something for the first time and their aerial transport capability could increase accordingly. Our Vietnamese like titles too.

let impress me by "largest aerial transport capability" or "most heavy lift capability "
the production line of heavy lift aircraft ( like C-17 ) can be reopened if they want nearly anytime.

And the "currently largest in production" fades immediately.

But the largest aerial transport capability isn't the one day crown.

An-124 Ruslan come to Vietnam quite often for delivery of Sukhoi fighters or other assets
C-5 Galaxy come Vietnam for MIA issue
And C-17

They are great


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## jhungary

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Nope the Me 363 Gigant was way before that, and Britain, Italy, Japan
> has all developed heavy military transport way before this one.
> Possibly also Canada.
> 
> As far as I understand, the engines of the Y-20 are Russian, and while China is developing an engine that might replace it, other comments about Chinese jet engine technology here on PDF, are less than positive.
> Until You can show production with Chinese Engine, you are not on Your own list.
> 
> By the way, are You aware that Tokyo has the worlds tallest Tokyo tower?



The claim is laughable not because of what they claim after the big boy quits, the claim is laughable simply because the claim is not true. There are quite a few military aircraft that is currently in production that is bigger than the Y-20.....

An-124 - 150 tons payload, 175 ton empty weight (At least 7 on order)
A-330 MRTT - 45 tons payload (non-fuel) + 110 tons fuel payload, 125 tons empty weight (New Plane)
IL-96 400-TZ - 58 tons payload + 65 tons fuel, 122 tons empty weight (2 on order)
Boeing 747-8 Air Force One - 0 tons payload, 220 tons empty weight (3 on order)
Y-20 - 66 tons payload, 110 tons empty weight



BoQ77 said:


> I think, the "largest currently in production" is funny term. But it's meaningful to the newbie when they get something for the first time and their aerial transport capability could increase accordingly. Our Vietnamese like titles too.
> 
> let impress me by "largest aerial transport capability" or "most heavy lift capability "
> the production line of heavy lift aircraft ( like C-17 ) can be reopened if they want nearly anytime.
> 
> And the "currently largest in production" fades immediately.
> 
> But the largest aerial transport capability isn't the one day crown.
> 
> An-124 Ruslan come to Vietnam quite often for delivery of Sukhoi fighters or other assets
> C-5 Galaxy come Vietnam for MIA issue
> And C-17
> 
> They are great



To be honest, I think An-124 production is numbered, unless the Russian show sudden interest in invading some other country that require a large Heavy Transport fleet. and So does IL-96, Air Force One is simply just a one off, that means the only large aircraft that remains is the A-330MRTT, which currently is eyeing production into 2020s.

The "title" of what-ya-ma-call-it is just a shame, it meant basically nothing. You built a bigger planes, then I build a n even bigger planes, this "title" have changes hand more time than I can count, and China put into the contention means nothing to this cycle.


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## nang2

I don't understand all the fuss. The first time I read the title, my understanding was that it is the largest in Chinese production. Peacetime size comparison is too boring.

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## jhungary

nang2 said:


> I don't understand all the fuss. The first time I read the title, my understanding was that it is the largest in Chinese production. Peacetime size comparison is too boring.



Well, if you read the OP's article, you will see it compare to IL-76 and C-17, which means the article is calling for Y-20 is the biggest military aircraft currently in production in the world, not just in China, unless China also produce IL-76 and C-17.

Half of the people here celebrating this false fact, while the other half is pointing to the title is being wrong.

This is what's going on in this thread.


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## nang2

jhungary said:


> Well, if you read the OP's article, you will see it compare to IL-76 and C-17, which means the article is calling for Y-20 is the biggest military aircraft currently in production in the world, not just in China, unless China also produce IL-76 and C-17.
> 
> Half of the people here celebrating this false fact, while the other half is pointing to the title is being wrong.
> 
> This is what's going on in this thread.


I didn't. As I said, size comparison is boring, no matter who does it.


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## jhungary

nang2 said:


> I didn't. As I said, size comparison is boring, no matter who does it.



Well, I don't know about size comparison, but I do draw a line on getting the information right for any publication. That's why I am here on this thread, I cannot say for other.


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## Deino

Thread closed due to political ranting, "penis" contest-levela of discussion ... will be cleaned later.

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## Deino

Both now together ...

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## cnleio

Why Y-20 flying is good for China military force ?!

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## Tiqiu

Maybe this J-20 is going to be converted into something.....

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## cirr

Tiqiu said:


> Maybe this J-20 is going to be converted into something.....
> View attachment 313149



You mean Y-20? KJ-3000?

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## Tiqiu

cirr said:


> You mean Y-20? KJ-3000?


Not sure, but everything is possible. let's keep open-minded


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## nomi007

i still believe y-20 base upon 
An-112KC idea


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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> Maybe this J-20 is going to be converted into something.....
> View attachment 313149





nomi007 said:


> i still believe y-20 base upon
> An-112KC idea




Do You have an image of this An-112KC ???

If You mean the An-70-based design proposed for the US KC-X contest, I don't think so, since the Y-20 was already well progress, wen this turbofan-powered An-70-derivate was proposed.

However there are several other Antonov concepts An-77 or An-170 which can be seen as predecessors to the Y-20.

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## cirr

Street rumours....

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## Deino

I want that image ... large and high-rez !

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## cnleio

cirr said:


> Street rumours....


The An-124 will produce in China or we already get whole techs from Ukraine ?

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## grey boy 2



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## 星海军事



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## JSCh

* Chinese large freighter plane enters military service*
Source: Xinhua 2016-07-06 12:18:25

CHENGDU, July 6 (Xinhua) -- Y-20, China's homegrown large transport aircraft, officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on Wednesday.

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## 星海军事



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## JSCh



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## grey boy 2

Wow, really nice pictures of our beautiful "fat lady" finally its here for good
Thanks for sharing, i'm so exciting

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## cirr

Time to get started with Y-40

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## Beast

Finally official.

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## Deino

Very nice bird ...

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## grey boy 2

Some more goodies guys, but i wasn't able to post it,
Please help
http://mil.huanqiu.com/photo_china/2016-07/2836977.html#p=1

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## sheik

grey boy 2 said:


> Wow, really nice pictures of our beautiful "fat lady" finally its here for good
> Thanks for sharing, i'm so exciting



The nickname is "chubby girl", not "fat lady"

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## grey boy 2

I was able to post the first picture only, can someone post the rest?http://mil.huanqiu.com/photo_china/2016-07/2836977.html#p=1

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## sheik

grey boy 2 said:


> Some more goodies guys, but i wasn't able to post it,
> Please help
> http://mil.huanqiu.com/photo_china/2016-07/2836977.html#p=1



Y-20 Handover Ceremony

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## sheik

Y-20 Handover Ceremony

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## sheik

Y-20 Joins PLA

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## JSCh

Promotion video of Chinese Air Force Y-20 military transport aircraft from 2014.

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## sheik

sheik said:


> Y-20 Handover Ceremony



Remember this one?

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## Tiqiu

sheik said:


> Remember this one?
> View attachment 315941


yet, rainbow gate.

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## JSCh

* Chinese large freighter plane enters military service*
Source: Xinhua 2016-07-06 12:48:35

CHENGDU, July 6 (Xinhua) -- Y-20, China's homegrown large transport aircraft, officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on Wednesday.

With a maximum takeoff weight of 200 tonnes, the Y-20 is ideal for transporting cargo and personnel over long distances in diverse weather conditions.

"The Y-20 entering into service marks a crucial step for the Air Force improving its strategic power projection capability," said Air Force spokesperson Shen Jinke.

The Air Force needs more and better transport to better fulfill its military responsibilities, including safeguarding national security as well as domestic and international rescue and relief work, Shen added.

The Air Force has provided aid and delivered relief supplies to Pakistan, Mongolia, Thailand, Nepal and other countries as they were hit by disasters in recent years.

The indigenously designed and developed Y-20 took its maiden flight in January 2013, and made its debut at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in November 2014.

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## lcloo



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## JSCh

​

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## Dungeness

PLA Airforce News: It is official!

【中国空军列装运-20飞机提升战略投送能力】中国空军运-20飞机授装接装仪式7月6日在空军航空兵某部举行。空军新闻发言人申进科大校就此表示，中国自主发展的运-20飞机正式列装空军航空兵部队，标志着空军战略投送能力迈出关键性一步，彰显空军在创新驱动发展中加快推进“战略性军种”建设。
空军发言人介绍，运-20飞机是空军战略性、标志性、引领性装备，是中国依靠自己力量研制的一种200吨级大型、多用途运输机，可在复杂气象条件下执行各种物资和人员的长距离航空运输任务。
运-20飞机的顺利研制并正式列装空军部队，是中国科技创新的重大标志性成果，是中国航空工业发展的最新成就，标志着中国大飞机设计制造能力取得突破性进展，对推进中国经济和国防现代化建设，应对抢险救灾、人道主义救援等紧急情况，提高空军战略投送能力和中国军队履行使命任务能力，具有重要意义。http://m.weibo.cn/5707057078/3994211236007957?sourceType=sms&from=1066195010&wm=20005_0002。 再补几张图
空军, 是中国, 投送能力, 飞机, 正式列装
img-bbdd842e41ead95a24ef46506b53e929.jpg (144.19 KB, 下载次数: 0)

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## grey boy 2



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## JSCh

​

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## Beast



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## Beast

http://news.ifeng.com/a/20160706/49304550_0.shtml

Chief designer of Y-20 claimed he likes the nickname of Y-20 called "Chubby Girl"

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## greenwood

JSCh said:


> * Chinese large freighter plane enters military service*
> Source: Xinhua 2016-07-06 12:18:25
> 
> CHENGDU, July 6 (Xinhua) -- Y-20, China's homegrown large transport aircraft, officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on Wednesday.



Good new, we wait for the moment many years.
Hope Y20 can help to transport relief material to flood areas this time.

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## Beast

greenwood said:


> Good new, we wait for the moment many years.
> Hope Y20 can help to transport relief material to flood areas this time.


I hope Y-20 can replace all IL-76 in few years time and we rid of all these terrible Russian made stuff. We will have a made in China military image.

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## greenwood

Beast said:


> I hope Y-20 can replace all IL-76 in few years time and we rid of all these terrible Russian made stuff. We will have a made in China military image.



Really? Il-76 performed not bad I heard, it is just too small.


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## cnleio

My friends ... now PLAAF is the strategic airforce, the mass production of Y-20 can bring China & PLA power to any global hotspot in the world.

I believe not too long we will see China Y-20 fleet as many as American C-17, the PLAAF into new high-level

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## Beast

From chief designer of Y-20, cargo capacity of it is 20% larger than IL-76.

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## SOHEIL

Beast said:


> http://news.ifeng.com/a/20160706/49304550_0.shtml
> 
> Chief designer of Y-20 claimed he likes the nickname of Y-20 called "Chubby Girl"



Curvy babe

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## cnleio



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## Beidou2020

Beast said:


> From chief designer of Y-20, cargo capacity of it is 20% larger than IL-76.



Why is it less than the C-17?

It was a mistake to make smaller than C-17.


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## Oldman1

Beidou2020 said:


> Why is it less than the C-17?
> 
> It was a mistake to make smaller than C-17.



Who knows, maybe China build one that is like the C-5 Galaxy.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Oldman1 said:


> Who knows, maybe China build one that is like the C-5 Galaxy.



Too expensive to maintain. 

From wiki:

The cargo hold of the C-5 is one foot longer than the entire length of the first powered flight by the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk.[51] For its voracious consumption of fuel and its maintenance and reliability issues[52] the Galaxy's aircrews have nicknamed it _FRED_, for: Fucking[N 1] Ridiculous, Economic/Environmental Disaster.[52]

Its hard to imagine that such a beast was built in the 60s though.

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## Oldman1

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Too expensive to maintain.
> 
> From wiki:
> 
> The cargo hold of the C-5 is one foot longer than the entire length of the first powered flight by the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk.[51] For its voracious consumption of fuel and its maintenance and reliability issues[52] the Galaxy's aircrews have nicknamed it _FRED_, for: Fucking[N 1] Ridiculous, Economic/Environmental Disaster.[52]
> 
> Its hard to imagine that such a beast was built in the 60s though.



There were many planes that were made at the time that was hard to imagine. Even some that are still flying during that time. Best one to remember was the SR-71 that was made at the time.

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## Blue Marlin

SOHEIL said:


> Curvy babe


so i guess your like me then, you like yours curvy........... me too, but not to much


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## SOHEIL

Blue Marlin said:


> so i guess your like me then, you like yours curvy........... me too, but not to much


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## Blue Marlin

SOHEIL said:


>


that means yes then dont worry its natural. you should go to spain or even better brazil..... your excuse the rio olympics but you may come back with more than what you left with

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## SOHEIL

Blue Marlin said:


> that means yes then dont worry its natural. you should go to spain or even better brazil..... your excuse the rio olympics but you may come back with more than what you left with



I like japanese stuff


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## Blue Marlin

SOHEIL said:


> I like japanese stuff


 im not so sure on that.


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## SOHEIL

Blue Marlin said:


> im not so sure on that.



Curvy fit + long legs !

Unfortunately korean girls suffering flat *** syndrome ! They have long legs !

You know ... Eastern girls especially koreans & japanese have industrial quality !

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## grey boy 2

Some more pictures

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## cloneman

涂装太皿煮，土鳖战斗力为负。


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## cirr

China's large freighter plane won't stop with Y-20

http://mil.huanqiu.com/observation/2016-07/9132551.html

so says the chief designer of Y-20.

Feasibility study and preliminary design of a 400-ton beast is under way. 

HUD

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## 艹艹艹

beijingwalker said:


> *Y-20 heavy transport aircraft successful maiden flight today*
> 
> 14&#65306;48 &#36816;20&#20302;&#31354;&#36890;&#22330;&#65292;&#25671;&#26179;&#26426;&#32764;&#12290;
> 14:48 Y-20 low pass over runway, shaking its wing.
> 
> 15&#65306;00 &#36816;-20&#25104;&#21151;&#38477;&#33853;&#65292;&#39318;&#39134;&#22278;&#28385;&#25104;&#21151;&#65281;
> 15:00 Y-20 landed. Maiden flight successful.


哥们我想知道如何 在这论坛发帖子 我找不到地方，刚注册

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## lcloo

long_ said:


> 哥们我想知道如何 在这论坛发帖子 我找不到地方，刚注册



Check the top right corner as indicate in the attached pic. 如果找不到的话，你可要先多回帖，可能因尚未有发帖资格。

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## 艹艹艹

lcloo said:


> Check the top right corner as indicate in the attached pic. 如果找不到的话，你可要先多回帖，可能因尚未有发帖资格。
> 
> 
> View attachment 316152


 thank you 谢谢

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## grey boy 2

Many Y-9 spotted as the back ground of Y-20

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## Tiqiu

My count is 15 Y-9. WOW

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## grey boy 2



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## cnleio

PLAAF Y-20

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## cirr



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## salarsikander

Hi,

Is it powered by indigenous power plant ?


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## AlyxMS

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is it powered by indigenous power plant ?


Currently powered by 4 Russian D-30 engines.
Two indigenous engines are in development, WS-18 and WS-20.

WS-18 is a co-produced version of the Russian D-30KP2.
WS-20 is a high bypass ratio turbofan based on the WS-10 and it has been tested on a IL-76 a few years ago.

A improved version of Y-20 with 4 WS-20 is likely to enter service in the upcoming years.

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## lcloo

According to the chief engineer, improve Y-20 will have a stretched body, increased load weight and cargo space volume.

He als said that Y-20's design incorporate provisions for modification to AWAC, tanker etc. at the beginning stage of its development.

在回答《环球时报》记者关于“运20下一步是否考虑发展预警机、加油机等改型”的问题时，唐长红承认，由于一型飞机的研制通常要耗费比较长的时间，因此从设计初期开始，就得预先考虑各种衍生型号的需求。和其他大型运输机一样，运-20在这方面也有所计划。

　　他还透露，*在运-20的进一步改进改型过程中，将机身加长，“确切地说是最容易的”。此外还包括进一步提升飞机的载重能力，或者增大它的容积。*

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## Beast

AlyxMS said:


> Currently powered by 4 Russian D-30 engines.
> Two indigenous engines are in development, WS-18 and WS-20.
> 
> WS-18 is a co-produced version of the Russian D-30KP2.
> WS-20 is a high bypass ratio turbofan based on the WS-10 and it has been tested on a IL-76 a few years ago.
> 
> A improved version of Y-20 with 4 WS-20 is likely to enter service in the upcoming years.


WS-18 is not an exact of D-30KP2. It uses indigenous fanblade with increase thrust and lifespan. WS-18 development seems faster and easier compare to WS-20. I will not be surprised the one use on Y-20 maybe WS-18.

https://defence.pk/threads/final-installment-of-d-30kp-2-delivered-to-china.365244/#post-6917038

And I don't think there is much new D-30KP2 engines left to fit Y-20.

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## j20blackdragon

Why does the operational Y-20 have such a dark color scheme?

USAF planes like the F-117, B-2, SR-71 are black for a very specific reason.

Also why does the operational Y-20 have yellow serial numbers?

The only PLAAF planes, that I know of, that have yellow serial numbers are the fighter jets and the JH-7A.

Other PLAAF transport planes look like this.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PLAAF_Ilyushin_Il-76_landing_at_Perth_Airport_-2.jpg





But the Y-20 looks like this.

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## nang2

j20blackdragon said:


> Why does the operational Y-20 have such a dark color scheme?
> 
> USAF planes like the F-117, B-2, SR-71 are black for a very specific reason.
> 
> Also why does the operational Y-20 have yellow serial numbers?
> 
> The only PLAAF planes, that I know of, that have yellow serial numbers are the fighter jets and the JH-7A.
> 
> Other PLAAF transport planes look like this.
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PLAAF_Ilyushin_Il-76_landing_at_Perth_Airport_-2.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the Y-20 looks like this.
> View attachment 316222


So the fat girl may look skinnier.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> WS-18 is not an exact of D-30KP2. It uses indigenous fanblade with increase thrust and lifespan. WS-18 development seems faster and easier compare to WS-20. I will not be surprised the one use on Y-20 maybe WS-18.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/final-installment-of-d-30kp-2-delivered-to-china.365244/#post-6917038
> 
> And I don't think there is much new D-30KP2 engines left to fit Y-20.



Honestly, so far I haven't seen any official confirmation on the WS-18 to be used in these aircraft today... even more it was officially admitted / confirmed that they are using "imported foreign" engines ... as such D-30KP-2 !



j20blackdragon said:


> Why does the operational Y-20 have such a dark color scheme?
> 
> USAF planes like the F-117, B-2, SR-71 are black for a very specific reason.
> 
> Also why does the operational Y-20 have yellow serial numbers?
> 
> The only PLAAF planes, that I know of, that have yellow serial numbers are the fighter jets and the JH-7A.




Maybe this will be the new standard ?? regular J-10s and J-11s also have yellow numbers and maybe the Il-76 will be repainted later too ...


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## Echo_419

nang2 said:


> So the fat girl may look skinnier.



Technically you are right


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## l0ngl0ng

Echo_419 said:


> Technically you are right







Approved


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## grey boy 2



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## cirr

A stretched version of Y-20 with WS-20 is in order?

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## grey boy 2

cirr said:


> China's large freighter plane won't stop with Y-20
> 
> http://mil.huanqiu.com/observation/2016-07/9132551.html
> 
> so says the chief designer of Y-20.
> 
> Feasibility study and preliminary design of a 400-ton beast is under way.
> 
> HUD

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## Beidou2020

*The Y-20, a new domestically developed long-range transport aircraft has formally entered service in the Chinese air force. *

The newest military aircraft has a maximum takeoff weight of 200 tons and is ideal for carrying cargo, people and heavy equipment over long distances in difficult weather conditions, the air force said in a short statement on its official Weibo account.

"The Y-20 entering service marks a crucial step for the air force in improving its strategic power projection capability," Chinese air force spokesperson Shen Jinke said Wednesday at a ceremony to announce the plane's deployment in Sichuan Province.

Song Zhongping, a military expert, told the Global Times that the Y-20 will be invaluable in deploying troops overseas for UN peacekeeping missions. 

"In the past, the Chinese military could only rely on the Russian-made Ilyushin 76 cargo aircraft and even civilian aircraft to transport troops for UN peacekeeping and counter-terrorism missions, but the Y-20 will largely improve this situation. It will allow China to contribute more to help maintain international security, anti-piracy and global counter-terrorism," Song said.

Li Wei, a Chinese counter-terrorism expert, told the Global Times that China's new counter-terrorism law allows China to send troops abroad for the first time to participate in counter-terrorism operations. The Y-20 can help in this regard if China has permission from other countries to enter their territories for counter-terrorism purposes.

The Y-20 will form a powerful arm of the air force and help boost China's image as a responsible power, said Wang Mingliang, professor at the Air Force Command College.

Addressing a ceremony for the handover of the planes on Wednesday, Central Military Commission vice chairman Xu Qiliang called for better aviation design and manufacturing, and to develop skilled maintenance personnel.

*Tang Changhong, Deputy Chief Engineer of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and chief designer of the Y-20, told the Global Times that since the beginning of their research, the Y-20's designers took into consideration the plausibility of building derivative models for the large transport aircraft. 

Tang said they are considering extending the body of the aircraft, which he called "the easy part," and increasing the plane's weight-carrying capacities. *

Designed and manufactured by the State-owned AVIC, the Y-20 took its maiden flight in January 2013, and made its debut at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in November 2014. 

Last month, the first two Y-20 planes were delivered to the air force, after five years of design and manufacture as well as another four years of test flights. 

*Timing coincidental
*
The Y-20 has entered service a little less than a week before the ruling of the South China Sea arbitration initiated by the Philippines. 

Song told the Global Times that, although the timing is interesting, the Y-20 has nothing to do with the arbitration, as it is based on technological reasons rather than political or diplomatic reasons. 

"The Y-20 is not built for the situation in South China Sea because it's for long distance transportation. The Chinese navy and air force have many other aircraft in service should they want to transport troops to the South China Sea," Song said. 

Song admitted that recent Chinese military aircraft do have "heart disease" which means that China relies on Russian-designed engines, but likely before 2020, China will solve this problem effectively as it has put a lot of effort into engine design. 

In 2006, developing large aircraft was listed as a national key sci-tech project. A decade on, China is eying accelerated development of large aircraft, with the task having been written into the 13th Five-Year Plan, the country's blueprint for the next five years, in March.

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## That Guy

The biggest hurdle for Chinese aircraft are the engines, it is one of the reasons why Pakistan continues to rely on Russian engines for the thunder.


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## dy1022



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## yusheng

http://www.js7tv.cn/video/201607_51856.html

Clip of Y20 official introduction

*空军运20震撼宣传片：大国鲲鹏 展翅高飞*

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## grey boy 2

yusheng said:


> http://www.js7tv.cn/video/201607_51856.html
> 
> Clip of Y20 official introduction
> 
> *空军运20震撼宣传片：大国鲲鹏 展翅高飞*



Great video bro, thanks for sharing

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## lcloo

cirr said:


> A stretched version of Y-20 with WS-20 is in order?



That is what the chief engineer 唐长红 told the reporter.

唐长红，男，中共党员，中国工程院院士。新型“飞豹”“歼轰7A”总设计师，大型运输机“运-20”总设计师。[1]西北工业大学空气动力学专业，分配到603所（一飞院的前身）工作，后又攻读北京航空航天大学固体力学专业硕士研究生，1989年毕业。
现任中航工业第一飞机设计研究院总设计师、副院长。他是我国知名结构强度专家，先后在国内外学术会议及刊物上发表有独到见解的论文20余篇。
他先后被评为陕西省有突出贡献中青年专家，陕西省有突出贡献专家，2001年度“陕西省职工跨世纪立功竞赛标兵”，陕西省先进工作者，陕西省劳动模范。2006年荣获全国五一劳动奖章、2010年获得“全国先进工作者”荣誉称号。享受国务院政府特殊津贴。现为上海交通大学航天航空学院院长，北京航空航天大学兼职教授，陕西省航空学会常务理事，西工大“气动弹性研究所”学术委员会委员。[2] 2015年11月16日唐长红辞去中航飞机股份有限公司总设计师职位。

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## 星海军事

http://m.youku.com/video/id_XMTYzNTI1MzI3Mg==.html?x

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## Dungeness

long_ said:


> 哥们我想知道如何 在这论坛发帖子 我找不到地方，刚注册





yusheng said:


> http://www.js7tv.cn/video/201607_51856.html
> 
> Clip of Y20 official introduction
> 
> *空军运20震撼宣传片：大国鲲鹏 展翅高飞*





Here you go on Youtube:

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## Beast

星海军事 said:


> http://m.youku.com/video/id_XMTYzNTI1MzI3Mg==.html?x


Specially design with mind to fit 2 WZ-10 helo in. The ceiling is very tall.

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## Tiqiu

grey boy 2 said:


>


Amazing. Y-20 also has Head-up Display screen too.

A HUD screen on normal commercial airplane.

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## Beast

Tiqiu said:


> Amazing. Y-20 also has Head-up Display screen too.
> 
> A HUD screen on normal commercial airplane.
> View attachment 316304


Y-20 control interface,cockpit display are far superior than IL-76. On par with A400M.

I am quite sure, Y-20 will be send to peace mission in sept 2016 in Russia.

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## Daniel808

Deino said:


> Honestly, so far I haven't seen any official confirmation on the WS-18 to be used in these aircraft today... even more it was officially admitted / confirmed that they are using "imported foreign" engines ... as such D-30KP-2 !



Is that WS-18 Engine already Produced since 2009?
I got that Info from *China Aerospace Propulsion Technology Summit 2014*.

I am little Sceptical, but doesn't like WS-10 and AL-31, we can see the Difference.
For WS-18 and D-30KP, we can not see the Difference from Outside (Pictures)

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## grey boy 2



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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> Show me the interior of Y-20 cargo bay, ok?
> The cheaper, better way for Vietnam is purchasing some because that choice is available, ok?
> Even India chose that way. not any bad choice.



Just for you! Tall and roomy.

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## cnleio



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## grey boy 2

Close up details illustrated pictures of Y-20

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## Deino



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## Deino



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## Blue Marlin

grey boy 2 said:


> Close up details illustrated pictures of Y-20


can someone translate this please?

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## lcloo

Night picture, new toy for ground crew.

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## cnleio

Blue Marlin said:


> can someone translate this please?

















I think the emergency area on Y-20 (below front emergency door), more like this ==> emergency slide

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## Blue Marlin

cnleio said:


> View attachment 316688
> 
> View attachment 316690
> 
> View attachment 316691
> 
> 
> 
> I think the emergency area on Y-20 (below front emergency door), more like this ==> emergency slide
> View attachment 316695


thanks alot @cnleio

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## Beast



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## cnleio

U.S.A style Y-20

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## monitor



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## Ali Zadi

There is conflicting information on the range of this beauty. 

Wonder if in can reach Taiwan from one of the artificial islands in the SCS?


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## Omega007

Ali Zadi said:


> There is conflicting information on the range of this beauty.
> 
> Wonder if in can reach Taiwan from one of the artificial islands in the SCS?



So you play Garry's Mod, huh??


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## Beast

Omega007 said:


> So you play Garry's Mod, huh??


i will report that troll.

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## Omega007

Beast said:


> i will report that troll.



Well, that's your right!! I don't see why I needed to know that by the way.


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## Beast



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## lcloo

Y20 air drop.

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## cnleio

Different engines Y-20

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

cnleio said:


> Different engines Y-20
> 
> View attachment 316893



Are the WS20?


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## Deino

Sinopakfriend said:


> Are the WS20?




The second image is only a PS ... done to show how the definitive Y-20A might look like.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Deino said:


> The second image is only a PS ... done to show how the definitive Y-20A might look like.



That was quick Deino!! I should be getting too old..without glass ...haha.. Anyways, past bed time for this old man...
Thanks for correction.

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## Beast

Ali Zadi said:


> There is conflicting information on the range of this beauty.
> 
> Wonder if in can reach Taiwan from one of the artificial islands in the SCS?


Yes, yes. It can only flies a range of 99km. That will make you Indian at ease, right?

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## lcloo

This is very old model of Y20, more than 5 years old I think. I remember many doubters simply dismissed this a fake when the photo first showed up. They were so wrong!

The engines shown are WS-20.

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## Beast



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## cirr

Maybe it is time to create a thread for the Y-30? 











@Deino

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## HAIDER

Beast said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-2
> 
> First flight in 2010 and until now , haven even show a sigh of entering service. Initially brag about being Asia largest military produced transport plane and then claimed how advance blah blah blah...
> 
> Now.... Y-20 even enter service earlier


Is it Chinese engine or foreign engine ? ...


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## Beast

HAIDER said:


> Is it Chinese engine or foreign engine ? ...


WS-18 domestic uprated thrust compare to DK-30P2

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

When the Chinese needs are met expect this bird in PAF colours... PAF & PA would need at least 20 of these...

Anyone has an idea what is production rate of Y20 is at the moment? One suspects the next five years to be full throttle on this one.

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## Beast

Sinopakfriend said:


> When the Chinese needs are met expect this bird in PAF colours... PAF & PA would need at least 20 of these...
> 
> Anyone has an idea what is production rate of Y20 is at the moment? One suspects the next five years to be full throttle on this one.


Shall be at least 8-10 bird per year.

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## Han Patriot

lcloo said:


> This is very old model of Y20, more than 5 years old I think. I remember many doubters simply dismissed this a fake when the photo first showed up. They were so wrong!
> 
> The engines shown are WS-20.
> View attachment 317041



Lol, I saw that pic too....those were the days. I remember some BR guys saying the J-20 was fake until the whole test flight video came crashing on their faces.

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## cirr

Soon......

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## 星海军事

cirr said:


> Soon......


2017, maybe

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## Beast

星海军事 said:


> 2017, maybe


2016, near year end.

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## Pepsi Cola

Beast said:


> 2016, near year end.


that would be ideal.

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## grey boy 2

Y-20 with Enhanced Flight Vision System.
近日，有图片显示中国空军运20配备了增强型飞行视景系统。

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## ahojunk

_This is two months old, I have looked through the previous pages but I don't think this particular news item has been posted in this thread yet.

--------_
*Chinese large freighter plane enters military service*
Xinhua, July 7, 2016





_File photo of Y-20, China's homegrown large transport aircraft. Y-20 officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on Wednesday. (Xinhua/Cao Yinan)_


Painted grey and carrying national flags and yellow serial numbers on their tails, two Y-20 planes, China's largest homegrown transport aircraft, officially joined the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force on Wednesday.

Designed and manufactured by state-owned aviation giant the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the Y-20 boasts a maximum takeoff weight of around 200 tonnes.

It is ideal for transporting cargo and people over long distances in diverse weather conditions, according to AVIC.

"The Y-20 entering into service marks a crucial step for the Air Force improving its strategic power projection capability," said PLA Air Force spokesperson Shen Jinke.

The Air Force needs more and better transport to better fulfill its military responsibilities, including safeguarding national security as well as domestic and international rescue and relief work, Shen added.

"For China, The Y-20 is key to the building of a strategic air force," said Fang Bing, a professor with the National Defense University PLA China.

Addressing a ceremony trumpeting the planes on Wednesday, Central Military Commission Vice Chairman Xu Qiliang congratulated those who contributed to the research and production of the aircraft.

Xu also called for better aviation design and manufacturing, and equipment maintenance.

Officially codenamed "Kunpeng," after a Chinese mythical bird that can fly for thousands of kilometers, the Y-20 has got the nickname "Chubby Girl" for its a deep and wide fuselage.

The fuselage is designed hold more cargo and larger equipment, which also enables the Y-20 to be developed into other variants in the future, according to AVIC.

Its high reliability, long design life and complex systems all hold competitive edges, said Tang Changhong, chief designer of the aircraft.

China began the Y-20 project in 2007. Only three other countries have the capacity to develop and manufacture such large transport aircraft, "but none would share the know-how," said Tang.

"We could not even get a design drawing for reference. We had to start from scratch, everything from the very beginning."

Nearly 1,000 research and manufacturing facilities helped build the aircraft, and, after years of hard work, their endeavors have paid off.

Y-20 made its maiden flight in January 2013, and debuted at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in November 2014.

Last month, the first two Y-20 planes were delivered to the Air Force, after five years of design and manufacture as well as another four years of test flights.

The time between the start of the design and the Y-20's flight was around half that of similar aircraft in other countries.

"China has joined the few nations capable of indigenously developing 200-tonne-level large transport aircraft," said Geng Ruguang, vice general manager of AVIC and the general director of the Y-20 project.

According to AVIC, the Y-20 will be tasked with servicing national defense modernization, disaster relief and carrying international humanitarian aid.

The Y-20 will form a powerful arm of the Air Force and help to boost China's image as a responsible power, Wang Mingliang, professor with Air Force Command College, said.

The Air Force has carried out many airdrop and evacuation tasks responding to earthquakes, floods, fires and storms in China.

It has also provided aid and delivered relief supplies to Pakistan, Mongolia, Thailand, Nepal and other countries as they were hit by disasters in recent years.

"To enhance national strength, China must build up its ability of indigenously designing and producing large aircraft and strengthen its air transport," said Tang Changhong.

In 2006, developing large aircraft was listed as a national key sci-tech project. A decade on, China is eying accelerated development of large aircraft, with the task having been written into the 13th Five-Year Plan, the country's blueprint for the next five years, in March.

"The delivery of the Y-20 marks the realization of a Chinese aviation dream going back decades, and a major breakthrough in sci-tech innovation and high-end equipment manufacturing in China," said Geng Ruguang.

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## SouI

ahojunk said:


> _This is two months old, I have looked through the previous pages but I don't think this particular news item has been posted in this thread yet.
> 
> --------_
> *Chinese large freighter plane enters military service*
> Xinhua, July 7, 2016
> 
> View attachment 333993
> 
> _File photo of Y-20, China's homegrown large transport aircraft. Y-20 officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on Wednesday. (Xinhua/Cao Yinan)_
> 
> 
> Painted grey and carrying national flags and yellow serial numbers on their tails, two Y-20 planes, China's largest homegrown transport aircraft, officially joined the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force on Wednesday.
> 
> Designed and manufactured by state-owned aviation giant the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the Y-20 boasts a maximum takeoff weight of around 200 tonnes.
> 
> It is ideal for transporting cargo and people over long distances in diverse weather conditions, according to AVIC.
> 
> "The Y-20 entering into service marks a crucial step for the Air Force improving its strategic power projection capability," said PLA Air Force spokesperson Shen Jinke.
> 
> The Air Force needs more and better transport to better fulfill its military responsibilities, including safeguarding national security as well as domestic and international rescue and relief work, Shen added.
> 
> "For China, The Y-20 is key to the building of a strategic air force," said Fang Bing, a professor with the National Defense University PLA China.
> 
> Addressing a ceremony trumpeting the planes on Wednesday, Central Military Commission Vice Chairman Xu Qiliang congratulated those who contributed to the research and production of the aircraft.
> 
> Xu also called for better aviation design and manufacturing, and equipment maintenance.
> 
> Officially codenamed "Kunpeng," after a Chinese mythical bird that can fly for thousands of kilometers, the Y-20 has got the nickname "Chubby Girl" for its a deep and wide fuselage.
> 
> The fuselage is designed hold more cargo and larger equipment, which also enables the Y-20 to be developed into other variants in the future, according to AVIC.
> 
> Its high reliability, long design life and complex systems all hold competitive edges, said Tang Changhong, chief designer of the aircraft.
> 
> China began the Y-20 project in 2007. Only three other countries have the capacity to develop and manufacture such large transport aircraft, "but none would share the know-how," said Tang.
> 
> "We could not even get a design drawing for reference. We had to start from scratch, everything from the very beginning."
> 
> Nearly 1,000 research and manufacturing facilities helped build the aircraft, and, after years of hard work, their endeavors have paid off.
> 
> Y-20 made its maiden flight in January 2013, and debuted at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in November 2014.
> 
> Last month, the first two Y-20 planes were delivered to the Air Force, after five years of design and manufacture as well as another four years of test flights.
> 
> The time between the start of the design and the Y-20's flight was around half that of similar aircraft in other countries.
> 
> "China has joined the few nations capable of indigenously developing 200-tonne-level large transport aircraft," said Geng Ruguang, vice general manager of AVIC and the general director of the Y-20 project.
> 
> According to AVIC, the Y-20 will be tasked with servicing national defense modernization, disaster relief and carrying international humanitarian aid.
> 
> The Y-20 will form a powerful arm of the Air Force and help to boost China's image as a responsible power, Wang Mingliang, professor with Air Force Command College, said.
> 
> The Air Force has carried out many airdrop and evacuation tasks responding to earthquakes, floods, fires and storms in China.
> 
> It has also provided aid and delivered relief supplies to Pakistan, Mongolia, Thailand, Nepal and other countries as they were hit by disasters in recent years.
> 
> "To enhance national strength, China must build up its ability of indigenously designing and producing large aircraft and strengthen its air transport," said Tang Changhong.
> 
> In 2006, developing large aircraft was listed as a national key sci-tech project. A decade on, China is eying accelerated development of large aircraft, with the task having been written into the 13th Five-Year Plan, the country's blueprint for the next five years, in March.
> 
> "The delivery of the Y-20 marks the realization of a Chinese aviation dream going back decades, and a major breakthrough in sci-tech innovation and high-end equipment manufacturing in China," said Geng Ruguang.


WOW! This one looks ever greater than the latest state-of-art one we bought from the USA a while ago!

Keep up the good work Chinese!!



cirr said:


> Maybe it is time to create a thread for the Y-30?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Deino


Why is this Y-30 needed? What are the differences between Y-20 and Y-30?

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## Deino

SouI said:


> ...
> Why is this Y-30 needed? What are the differences between Y-20 and Y-30?




It's a different class ... more a Y-8/-9-successor and complement to the Y-20.

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## Deino

Simulation of the Y-20's thrust reversers for the WS-20 ...

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## grey boy 2



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## eldamar

grey boy 2 said:


>



胖妞胖的很漂亮

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> ....




Nice but all were already posted ! Anyway nice !

By the way, do we have any reports about another bird delivered to the 4. Division ??? ... maybe a 11053 ??

Deino


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Nice but all were already posted ! Anyway nice !
> 
> By the way, do we have any reports about another bird delivered to the 4. Division ??? ... maybe a 11053 ??
> 
> Deino



They said its new http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_193_45551.html#p=1
No clue pal regarding the division

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> They said its new http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_193_45551.html#p=1
> No clue pal regarding the division




No offence, ... but I have them already since the Y-20's service introduction on 7. June 2016 !

Concerning the division, that's simple: the serial is 11051 meaning 1xx5x for the 4. Division (since 15 - 11 = 4), the second digit "1" denotes the 3. Regiment within this Division, since all aircraft assigned to the 1. Reg. have serials between 01 - 49 (or 50), from the 2. Reg. have serials between 51 - 99 and the 3. one with serials ranging from 101 - 150. And concerning the regiment numbers, the 4. Division has 3*4 = 12. Reg with the highest number, meaning the 4. Division's first Reg. is the 10. Reg, the second = 11. Reg. and the third is the 12. Reg.
As such, this particular aircraft - 11051 - is the first aircraft assigned to the 12. Regiment within the 4. Air Division.

Deino

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## yusheng



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## truthseeker2010

What is the unit cost of Y-20?

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## grey boy 2



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## 艹艹艹



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## Deino

Upppss ... look what's coming?? Y-20-F100 + WS-20 !

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## 艹艹艹

Deino said:


> Upppss ... look what's coming?? Y-20-F100 + WS-20 !
> 
> View attachment 347199


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## grey boy 2

More on the Y-20 "civilian version"? with domestic "WS 20"

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## 艹艹艹

grey boy 2 said:


> More on the Y-20 "civilian version"? with domestic "WS 20"


*Looks like an airliner.*


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## kuge

smells like they are quite confident of the advent of ws-20?
now that they have a working ws-10 in military they need to fill up the void in civilian sector to be fully qualified as an turbo fan maker

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## grey boy 2



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## Beast

Seems like nobody care abt Y-20 at Zhuhai 2016 airshow with J-20 debut for airshow performance.

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## grey boy 2

Some nice pictures of Y-20 2016年11月1日，“胖妞”运20在珠海航展上出场，而“胖妞”的娘家中航工业西飞选送来一批“胖妞”的闺中靓照 (credits to 微信公号“智慧西飞”)

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

HD pictures of Y-20 北冥有鱼，其名为鲲。鲲之大，不知其几千里也；化而为鸟，其名为鹏。鹏之背，不知其几千里也。怒而飞，其翼若垂天之云。

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## grey boy 2

HD pictures of Y-20 北冥有鱼，其名为鲲。鲲之大，不知其几千里也；化而为鸟，其名为鹏。鹏之背，不知其几千里也。怒而飞，其翼若垂天之云。

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## grey boy 2

Some more HD pictures

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## Dungeness

grey boy 2 said:


>




You are really in love with "胖妞“ I guess， bro.

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

Any info or idea what number this is ??


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801075438944546816

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## cirr



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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Y-20 (credits to 机贩子)

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## nang2

Good lord, I am really getting fed with these pictures. Come on, anything new?


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## grey boy 2

nang2 said:


> Good lord, I am really getting fed with these pictures. Come on, anything new?



Oh, i'm so sorry to know you feel that way, will promise to improve to something more interesting for your entertainment sake
However, in return, please keep feeding us with your "one liner wisdom" thanks in advance

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## haidian



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## Deino

A rare look at the production line at XAC...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805029373115936768

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## grey boy 2

A set of nice HD pictures

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## grey boy 2



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## cirr

grey boy 2 said:


>



Y-20 heading for static test before the installation of WS-20s(notice the differences in engine pylons)











A 2nd possibility is that this is a Y-20 variant.

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## Deino

Are the pylons really that different ???


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## 星海军事

星海军事 said:


> 2017, maybe


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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


>



Any idea when the WS-15 will start flight tests?


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## Deino

Another image ...

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## grey boy 2

Rumor that its a refueling version of Y-20
今天西安街头出现的运20之前分析是换发WS20的强度试验机，但是刚才又看到了新的说法，可能是运20特种机平台或者运油20，请注意截图的第二条评论。
希望西飞抓紧运油20的研制，为咱们的战机巡航东海南海添油助力！






There are some pretty difference in this version



















*结论：*个人猜测这是运20的当初传闻中1机2型的另外一版本。用于预警机和加油机等特殊机型。可能的变化如下：

1、发动机挂机更改，这个看爆料贴就有分析了，WS20的样式；
2、机身强度修改，因为不需要运输机的重载能力，机身结构可以减轻去掉死重。换来更轻的空重，这样可以让特种机型获得对应的航程载荷能力，也就是大航程和留空时间；
3、起落架整流罩修改，新图已经明确了。取消了大的整流罩减少了阻力和重量，也对航程有帮助。
4、取消尾舱门，毕竟这种改法已经完全放弃了货运加油两用的能力，不需要留着这个死重。

回到发动机问题上，大家看到发动机挂架变化了。但是如果单纯的换发是不需要重新进行整机静力测试的。从737NG换发到737MAX，A320换发到A320neo，都没有进行过静力测试这一步骤（也是他们为什么进度快的原因，毕竟是小改而不是改结构）。如果这次透露出来的信息是真往强度所方向拉，那么这个新机就说得通了。
(credits to leeone)

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## Deino

Hmmm ... interesting theory, but IMO the aerodynamic fairing to cover the gears is simply not installed yet similar to the aerodynamic cover of the wings on to, since they are not structural necessary for a static test.


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## yusheng

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2329989-1-1.html
关于整流罩是否安装的分析：

很多坛友说这个可能是没装整流罩，不排除这个可能。通常进行静力验证，非受力结构可以不装（如雷达罩，C919测试翼根整流罩也没装），但是涉及到机身会变形的盖口这些必须有，而且主结构包括结构上的螺丝都必须上不能少。这样才能判断受力后从哪个位置开始断裂需要加强。

我们先看带运20主起落架的结构图，橙色的那几个框架是机身段链接位置属于加强的结构，可以明显看到运20的起落架那里有一整块受力结构的，要静力测试不可能缺失结构件，尤其是中机身这么重要的位置。

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## Deino

So exactly what I said above !


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## hk299792458

Deino said:


> Hmmm ... interesting theory, but IMO the aerodynamic fairing to cover the gears is simply not installed yet similar to the aerodynamic cover of the wings on to, since they are not structural necessary for a static test.



And I would add you some of my points... ;-)

http://www.eastpendulum.com/cet-etrange-appareil-de-y-20

Henri K.

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## Pepsi Cola

hk299792458 said:


> And I would add you some of my points... ;-)
> 
> http://www.eastpendulum.com/cet-etrange-appareil-de-y-20
> 
> Henri K.


God damn, your blog is so informative. It's fortunate that Google translate works alright for French.

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## hk299792458

Okarus said:


> God damn, your blog is so informative. It's fortunate that Google translate works alright for French.



Thanks, I do my best... 

Henri K.

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## yusheng

Deino said:


> So exactly what I said above !


you don't understand Chinese,
what i mean is that :
1,do you see the orange part of the last photo of Y20 internal bone, different form the new Y20,
2, aerodynamic cover is perfectly installed on the new Y20 where you said is saved,even painted.
so it is a new derivative of Y20

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## Deino

yusheng said:


> you don't understand Chinese,
> what i mean is that :
> 1,do you see the orange part of the last photo of Y20 internal bone, different form the new Y20,
> 2, aerodynamic cover is perfectly installed on the new Y20 where you said is saved,even painted.
> so it is a new derivative of Y20




No ... where are these covers and fairings You mean to see? What kind of orange internal bone ???

IMO it is exactly as on the A380 You posted, the wing root fairings/join as well as the main gear fairings simply haven't been installed since they are not necessary on a structural test-bird.

But I'm eager to learn and I won't mind if I would be wrong.


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## yusheng

the original picture is not clear, so you may be correct, but there are other possiblities,





if the internal structure of y20 ,lower one, is correct, then it is different form the new one, upper one. the orange bone vanised on the upper photo.

second, as you said if the cover is saved, not necessary for structural test, then you will see some internal grid instead of the skin, as you see on A380, but what do you see? it is painted smooth skin.

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## yusheng

replace this one

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## grey boy 2



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## Pepsi Cola

Now that I think about it, I'm glad that Y-20 isn't painted in those rather interesting Y-9 paint schemes.

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## cirr

WS-20 for Y-20!!

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## Ultima Thule

grey boy 2 said:


>


Chinese C-17


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## Deino

By the way, any info on how many Y-20s were finally delivered until year's end?


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## yusheng



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## HannibalBarca

What will the max manufacturing capacity per year?


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## Shotgunner51

HannibalBarca said:


> What will the max manufacturing capacity per year?



No official data yet. XAC is the only production site now, a fair estimate is max 16-20 per year (reference: peak production rate for C-17 was 16 per year, from 2002-2009), note XAC is already under workload in many product lines. Another constraint is money, when government tightly control overall defence spend at ¥954 billion (2016; only equivalent to 1.28% of GDP), which is further spread thin across many departments from navy, strategic rocket to space, PLAAF has to prioritize their procurement. I estimate the fly away cost of one Y20 may touch ¥1 billion, and even higher in early batches.

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## HannibalBarca

Shotgunner51 said:


> No official data yet. XAC is the only production site now, a fair estimate is max 16-20 per year (reference: peak production rate for C-17 was 16 per year, from 2002-2009), note XAC is already under workload in many product lines. Another constraint is money, when government tightly control overall defence spend at ¥954 billion (2016; only equivalent to 1.28% of GDP), which is further spread thin across many departments from navy, strategic rocket to space, PLAAF has to prioritize their procurement. I estimate the fly away cost of one Y20 may touch ¥1 billion, and even higher in early batches.



oki but 140Mil$ for a Y-20 is not that cheap. a C-17 with all his advantages is around 200Mil$. Well at least it's an avalable alternative for countries who do not have C-17 alike planes.

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> No official data yet. XAC is the only production site now, a fair estimate is max 16-20 per year (reference: peak production rate for C-17 was 16 per year, from 2002-2009), note XAC is already under workload in many product lines. Another constraint is money, when government tightly control overall defence spend at ¥954 billion (2016; only equivalent to 1.28% of GDP), which is further spread thin across many departments from navy, strategic rocket to space, PLAAF has to prioritize their procurement. I estimate the fly away cost of one Y20 may touch ¥1 billion, and even higher in early batches.




But the rate today/right now is probably 4-6 per year at best !


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## Shotgunner51

HannibalBarca said:


> oki but 140Mil$ for a Y-20 is not that cheap. a C-17 with all his advantages is around 200Mil$. Well at least it's an avalable alternative for countries who do not have C-17 alike planes.




The flay away cost is just estimate, and yes quite costly especially in the early stage. I have no idea how it will be priced in $ cos I don't see it exporting anytime soon. Note even more experienced Boeing reaches peak production rate almost a decade down the road, see below data. So I guess it will take some years for XAC to reach max capacity (estimate 16-20 per year), satisfy PLAAF order, they can't cater for any overseas orders in the short run.

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## HannibalBarca

Shotgunner51 said:


> The flay away cost is just estimate, and yes quite costly especially in the early stage. I have no idea how it will be priced in $ cos I don't see it exporting anytime soon. Note even more experienced Boeing reaches peak production rate almost a decade down the road, see below data. So I guess it will take some years for XAC to reach max capacity (estimate 16-20 per year), satisfy PLAAF order, they can't cater for any overseas orders in the short run.
> 
> View attachment 371536



Well partial Y-20 production line could be exported to clients with high needs. with maybe some transfer of tech, that way you can boost up the production. well that's speculation for maybe in the coming decade or so.


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## Shotgunner51

HannibalBarca said:


> Well partial Y-20 production line could be exported to clients with high needs. with maybe some transfer of tech, that way you can boost up the production. well that's speculation for maybe in the coming decade or so.



Yes you are right on that, it's totally feasible if situation deems necessary.

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## Deino

Hu ... already the Y-20A's flight (or maintenance) manual ?!!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/828224291103662080

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## Daniel808

*Xian Y-20 Strategic Airlifter.*
Preparing to Install WS-20 Engine for Test? @cirr @Deino @Shotgunner51 





*Credit to : @Oedosoldier

*

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## aliaselin

Daniel808 said:


> *Xian Y-20 Strategic Airlifter.*
> Preparing to Install WS-20 Engine for Test? @cirr @Deino @Shotgunner51
> View attachment 374720
> 
> 
> *Credit to : @Oedosoldier
> *


Prepared for next model

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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> *Xian Y-20 Strategic Airlifter.*
> Preparing to Install WS-20 Engine for Test? @cirr @Deino @Shotgunner51
> View attachment 374720
> 
> 
> *Credit to : @Oedosoldier
> *





aliaselin said:


> Prepared for next model



And what's that next model ?? Next model of WS-20 for the next model of Y-20 ??? ... or even a different engine for another type?

I hope it is just what I suggested in my latest report: the removal of the WS-20 since it is done and ready. And now they will install the next new engine; hopefully the WS-15 !

Or will they only change it for maintenance ???

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> different engine for another type


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## lcloo

Chief design engineer of Y20, Tang Chang Hong who is attending the current 5th session of the 12th National People's Congress told press that Y20 equiped with domestic engines will appear next year or year after.

He also said Y20 has entered service for 8 months now and that PLAAF is very happy with its performance.

2016年7月6日，运-20举行了授装接装仪式，标志着这款由中国自主研发的新一代喷气式重型军用大型运输机正式从军入役。

全国两会期间，全国政协委员、运-20总设计师唐长红接受华西都市报-封面新闻记者采访时表示：“运-20目前还在试用阶段，由于这是我们自主研发的，交付过去以后用户都非常高兴，反馈回来的信息也是非常满意。”

同时唐长红还透露，运-20安装国产发动机已经有了时间表，“大概在明年或者后年就能看到装着国产发动机的运-20了。”

“反馈的信息是非常满意”

在全国两会上，唐长红说，运-20入役8个多月，目前从空军反馈回来的信息也是非常满意。

运-20大型运输机是中国自主研发的新一代喷气式重型军用大型运输机，由中国航空工业集团公司第一飞机设计研究院设计、西安飞机工业集团为主制造，并于2013年1月26日首飞成功。

去年11月珠海航展，有两架运-20参加。这是运-20服役后首次以空军装备身份亮相。两架运-20，一架在展区做静态展示，一架做动态演示。

当时记者看到，运-20在空中灵活机动，体态优美，展现出了良好的飞行性能。

运-20代号鲲鹏，而设计者们则亲切地称呼它为“胖妞”。

对于这个名字，唐长红曾有很精彩的解释：鲲鹏，是中国神话中的一只神鸟，巨大无比、力大无穷，蕴含了设计团队对于该型号运载机的期望。胖妞只是它的小名。但对于运载机来说，运载能力是首要重点，而“胖”就代表了这种体量与健壮。

运-20有系列化发展考虑

去年9月《深空探测学报》刊发的一篇名为“我国航天运输系统成就与展望”的论文。在文章中，作者提出一种科技设想，将运-20作为火箭载体，在一定高度释放火箭，火箭在离开飞机后点火。

对此，唐长红表示，“运-20作为专业平台来说，还有很多性能需要试飞，在这个基础上我们能做很多工作。”未来运-20可以开发成多种系列化的专业平台飞机。

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Chief design engineer of Y20, Tang Chang Hong who is attending the current 5th session of the 12th National People's Congress told press that Y20 equiped with domestic engines will appear next year or year after.
> 
> He also said Y20 has entered service for 8 months now and that PLAAF is very happy with its performance.
> 
> 2016年7月6日，运-20举行了授装接装仪式，标志着这款由中国自主研发的新一代喷气式重型军用大型运输机正式从军入役。
> 
> 全国两会期间，全国政协委员、运-20总设计师唐长红接受华西都市报-封面新闻记者采访时表示：“运-20目前还在试用阶段，由于这是我们自主研发的，交付过去以后用户都非常高兴，反馈回来的信息也是非常满意。”
> 
> 同时唐长红还透露，运-20安装国产发动机已经有了时间表，“大概在明年或者后年就能看到装着国产发动机的运-20了。”
> 
> “反馈的信息是非常满意”
> 
> 在全国两会上，唐长红说，运-20入役8个多月，目前从空军反馈回来的信息也是非常满意。
> 
> 运-20大型运输机是中国自主研发的新一代喷气式重型军用大型运输机，由中国航空工业集团公司第一飞机设计研究院设计、西安飞机工业集团为主制造，并于2013年1月26日首飞成功。
> 
> 去年11月珠海航展，有两架运-20参加。这是运-20服役后首次以空军装备身份亮相。两架运-20，一架在展区做静态展示，一架做动态演示。
> 
> 当时记者看到，运-20在空中灵活机动，体态优美，展现出了良好的飞行性能。
> 
> 运-20代号鲲鹏，而设计者们则亲切地称呼它为“胖妞”。
> 
> 对于这个名字，唐长红曾有很精彩的解释：鲲鹏，是中国神话中的一只神鸟，巨大无比、力大无穷，蕴含了设计团队对于该型号运载机的期望。胖妞只是它的小名。但对于运载机来说，运载能力是首要重点，而“胖”就代表了这种体量与健壮。
> 
> 运-20有系列化发展考虑
> 
> 去年9月《深空探测学报》刊发的一篇名为“我国航天运输系统成就与展望”的论文。在文章中，作者提出一种科技设想，将运-20作为火箭载体，在一定高度释放火箭，火箭在离开飞机后点火。
> 
> 对此，唐长红表示，“运-20作为专业平台来说，还有很多性能需要试飞，在这个基础上我们能做很多工作。”未来运-20可以开发成多种系列化的专业平台飞机。




Any info on how many aircraft are by now operational within the 4th Division ?


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> Any info on how many aircraft are by now operational within the 4th Division ?



Sorry, I do not have any information on this, we can only make educated guess at best.

Two aircraft with service serial numbers sighted 8 months ago, plus two (pre-delivery aircraft?) without serial number that showed up in last years's Zhuhai airshow. And it is 4 months since Zhuhai airshow, thus there should be at least another two by now.

So there should be at least 6 aircrafts, and possibly even more. like 8 to 10 aircraft. Who knows?

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## eldamar

Range of Y-20:

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## Beast

eldarlmari said:


> Range of Y-20:


The problem is Y-20 cant fly thru those countries without their permission. End of the day, the transport distance will be greatly reduce. It needs extensive air refuel to achieve much more power projection.

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## Deino

Is this a model of the WS-20-powered Y-20 ??

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Is this a model of the WS-20-powered Y-20 ??
> 
> View attachment 383913


Deino, do u know what the last few sentence says? The Chinese 4 must for air combat.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Deino, do u know what the last few sentence says? The Chinese 4 must for air combat.




Pardon ?? No, but I'm eager to learn with the help of some helpful guys ... Care to explain please?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Pardon ?? No, but I'm eager to learn with the help of some helpful guys ... Care to explain please?


For air combat, it must be fast, deceptive, accurate and lethal. I think J-20 fulfilled all these criteria. Maybe song wencong taught him.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> For air combat, it must be fast, deceptive, accurate and lethal. I think J-20 fulfilled all these criteria. Maybe song wencong taught him.




Ok. ... thanks. But back to this model: Am I wrong or does it indeed has WS-20s??


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## samsara

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/843064773948268545Model of *Y-20B* mounted with the *WS-20 engine*

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## Deino

samsara said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/843064773948268545Model of *Y-20B* mounted with the *WS-20 engine*



Already posted here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-20...-news-discussions.231628/page-59#post-9292975


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## samsara

Deino said:


> Already posted here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-20...-news-discussions.231628/page-59#post-9292975



Y-20B (with WS-20 engine)
I know  but I just wanna *emphasize* the tweet info of the NEW model with *Y-20B* mounted with the *WS-20 engine*.

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## samsara

*The Y-20 will acquire a Chinese engine by 2018 at the earliest*

By Henri Kenhmann - East Pendulum - 13 March 2017






The Chinese military transport aircraft Y-20 will soon acquire a native engine, its chief engineer said on Friday, March 10. TANG Zhanghong (唐长红), also a member of the Political Consultative Conference, is currently attending the 5th session of the 12th National People's Congress in Beijing and revealed several details about the Y-20 program in an interview with the local media.





_TANG Zhanghong (唐长红), chief engineer of the Y-20 program._​
"The Y-20 is still in the operational testing phase," TANG told reporters at _Huaxi City Daily_ , "the first operational feedback shows that customers are very satisfied."

The first two Y-20s, registered as 11051 and 11052, were delivered to the Chinese Air Force on June 15, 2016 and were admitted to active duty a few weeks later in the 4th Transport Division based in Qionglai, Sichuan province.

This is the first time the Chinese Air Force has a locally designed 200-ton transport aircraft, with the sole "regret" that the aircraft is still equipped with a Russian *D-30KP-2* engine, for lack of the Chinese equivalent.

The chief engineer of Y-20 specifies for this the schedule of the Chinese motorization endowment: "_You will see Y-20 equipped with Chinese engine next year (2018) or the year after. Without going into further details_"





_A Y-20, equipped with four Russian engines, was on demonstration flight at the last Zhuhai Air Show._

Two Chinese engines under development may however correspond to the next Y-20 propulsion.
The first is the *WS-18*, an unfavorable ("sinisée") version of D-30KP-2, which thus adopts a performance similar to 12,000 kgf of thrust. This engine that could eventually replace its Russian counterpart on the H-6K bomber, for example, was delivered in September 2014, but its latest status is not made public.

The second Chinese engine is the one targeted from the start by the Y-20 program, namely the *WS-20* . It is a turbofan with a high dilution rate with a thrust estimated between 13,200 and 16,300 kgf, whose development would be based on the core-engine of *WS-10*.

It should be noted that according to Chinese sources, the WS-20 has just been dismantled from the 760 flight test bench of China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) after a long testing campaign *started in November 2012*. It should therefore continue its flight tests on a new prototype of Y-20.

In terms of timing, the WS-20 appears to be more in line with an entry into service around 2018 or 2019, as indicated by Chief Engineer TANG. It is also known that Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation, which is responsible for mass production of the engine, has been studying since 2015 the installation of a Pulse Line assembly line with the help of the North-West Polytechnic University.





_The WS-18 made its first flight on a flying test bench of CFTE in September 2014._









_A WS-20 mounted on a CFTE test rig._





_A Y-20 model with four WS-20 engines (Photo: AVIC)_

One should however expect the institutional elements, or spotter photos, to know which of the two Chinese engines will equip the Y-20 first.

To be continued.

Henri K.

Appendix: Our articles on the Y-20 program can be found here .

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## grey boy 2



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## samsara

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/848891655512109056


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## Star Expedition

Awesome.
We need 100 asap.


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## truthseeker2010

whats the unit cost of Y-20?


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## samsara

Newly produced Y-20









*@OedoSoldier* 2017.04.09

From Chinese site (video, cn): http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5yC7G8xnlsaMHZevqFeNUQ


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## Deino

samsara said:


> Newly produced Y-20
> *@OedoSoldier* 2017.04.09
> 
> From Chinese site (video, cn): http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5yC7G8xnlsaMHZevqFeNUQ



Nice, but IMO overall the manufacturing rate in china is much too low !

How many of them are operational? We know 11051 & 11052 confirmed + two more un-serialled ones from Zhuhai (however reportedly on of them the final prototype) ... so this would be the 5th delivered to the 4. Transport Division.

Similar the rate at CAC producing J-10s and J-20s is much too low and even worse is the rate at SAC.


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## samsara

Deino said:


> Nice, but IMO overall the manufacturing rate in china is much too low !
> 
> How many of them are operational? We know 11051 & 11052 confirmed + two more un-serialled ones from Zhuhai (however reportedly on of them the final prototype) ... so this would be the 5th delivered to the 4. Transport Division.
> 
> Similar the rate at CAC producing J-10s and J-20s is much too low and even worse is the rate at SAC.


Some possibilities, simply conjecture:

(i) new products, so still adapting thus low rate
(ii) indeed still within the LRIP stage for various unknown reasons
(iii) build variety stuffs at the same time, so resources are not focused upon certain products
(iv) play quite safe, be very cautious over quality, to the extent principally is willing to trade off with the production speed; not in hurry for quantity
(v) all above are incorrect, for the actual quantity produced more than those made known

And for being slow or fast, in comparison to what?  What's the benchmark?


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## Beast

Over stretching the capacity for no reason is no good. China is in peace time and no foresee of mass invasion of others. Do we immediately need 20 Y-20? No.

Plus with delivery of almost 10 second hand IL-76 and many Y-9 enter service. PLAAF airborne is not as lack of transport as 5 years ago.

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## cirr

11-11-2016

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Finally some more new pictures "鲲鹏展翅" credits to 钢娃

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Finally some more new pictures "鲲鹏展翅" credits to 钢娃




Is this already 1104*3 *??? I'm not sure ... or still 11042?


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## grey boy 2



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## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


>


PLAAF heavy lifter Y-20 conducted drill (April 2017)

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## Deino

Y-20 static test airframe ...

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## grey boy 2

A new "Y-20" starring in the 5th AVIC ,CCTV documentary? (5月3日，在中国航空重镇——陕西阎良，由中国航空工业集团公司与中央电视台联袂打造的5集电视纪录片《国之大运》正式开机启动。)

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## samsara

*A new Y-20 Heavy Airlifter in the hangar of the West Xian aircraft company*





Via *@OedoSoldier* 2017-05-06

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## samsara

[Asia Today] 《今日亚洲》 20170506 - CCTV-4 中文国际




_(video in Chinese, No EngSub)_

*This segment has the highlights on China's 3 Giant Birds:*
*C919, AG600 and Y-20*

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## Deino

samsara said:


> *A new Y-20 Heavy Airlifter in the hangar of the West Xian aircraft company*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Via *@OedoSoldier* 2017-05-06




Nice ... ... any idea which number this is ?


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## grey boy 2



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## waja2000

hopefully Y-20 can get oversea deal (export) in future after replace new engine. Y-20 should take more part in International air show like Paris Air Show.

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## Shotgunner51

waja2000 said:


> hopefully Y-20 can get oversea deal (export) in future after replace new engine. Y-20 should take more part in International air show like Paris Air Show.


Export isn't likely any time soon. XAC has only one production site now, production is slow compared to massive PLAAF demand.

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Awesome pictures of Y-20

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## UKBengali

grey boy 2 said:


> Awesome pictures of Y-20




Will look so much better when WS-20 is fitted.

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## sinait

UKBengali said:


> Will look so much better when WS-20 is fitted.


WS-20 though more powerful and fuel efficient, but not better looking to me.
For looks, I prefer slimmer look of D-30KP. 
WS-20 look bulky.
.

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## Imran Khan

engines damn engines


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## Beast

Imran Khan said:


> engines damn engines


I can bet they are not the same Russian D30kp2 engines as many assume. They are domestic WS-18 with uprated thrust. 

Even WS-20 enter services, PLAAF still need steady flow of WS-18 engines to re equipped H-6K bomber. The WS-20 oversize engine cannot fit into the fuselage of H-6K bomber.

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## waja2000

Beast said:


> I can bet they are not the same Russian D30kp2 engines as many assume. They are domestic WS-18 with uprated thrust.
> Even WS-20 enter services, PLAAF still need steady flow of WS-18 engines to re equipped H-6K bomber. The WS-20 oversize engine cannot fit into the fuselage of H-6K bomber.



I think China already in development for new stealth bomber, so future H6 series will retire too. so maybe no need WS-18 .. unless WS-18 also use for new stealth bomber.


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## Beast

waja2000 said:


> I think China already in development for new stealth bomber, so future H6 series will retire too. so maybe no need WS-18 .. unless WS-18 also use for new stealth bomber.


H-6k are brand new build recently in 2015-2017. They are not as what you claim going to retire soon. They are highly modern with powerful radar and datalink. PLAAF definitely need many WS-18 for bomber and Y-20 in foresee future. WS-18 replaced the old turbojet that will give them longer range and more thrust.

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## Deino

Do You have any prove that they are using WS-18 ???


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Do You have any prove that they are using WS-18 ???


I didn't say they are definitely WS-18 but if some suggest WS-18 is a temporary engine project waiting for WS-20. Then they are dead wrong. Can WS-20 fit into new H-6K bomber? No.
Will PLAAF depend on Russia for D30kp2 engine supply of engine for next 10years? No.

Now do you have prove they are definitely Russian imported D30kp2 engine? Remember how you are proven wrong of Russian imported AL-31F engine on operational J-20.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> *1.* I didn't say they are definitely WS-18 but if some suggest WS-18 is a temporary engine project waiting for WS-20. Then they are dead wrong.
> *2. *Can WS-20 fit into new H-6K bomber? No.
> *3.* Will PLAAF depend on Russia for D30kp2 engine supply of engine for next 10years? No.



My answers in *RED* !
*1.* The fact that the WS-18 is maybe a fall-back-option if the WS-20 is delayed does not mean they already use it and a suggestion by "some" is no prove and even more if even Chinese sources say the current Y-20As are using imported engines.
*2.* No, but the H-6K is irrelevant to the current Y-20 since they will replaced by the new bomber.
*3. *YES for sure they will, they have to if the WS-20 is delayed and especially even more there was just a sale of 224 D-30KP2 in July 2016.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2212133.html



> And interesting deal was just announced: In July 2016 China ordered 224 D-30KP2 engines from Saturn, worth 658 Mio. US$. This is actually the third contract following the two previous contracts for 55 D-30KP2 between 2009-2011 and 184 engines in September 2011 making altogether a purchase of 463 D-30KP2. This type of engine is used by the PLAAF for the Il-76MD/TD, the Il-78, H-6K and for the initial batch of Y-20.






> Now do you have prove they are definitely Russian imported D30kp2 engine? Remember how you are proven wrong of Russian imported AL-31F engine on operational J-20.



So You are still dreaming !


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## Beast

Deino said:


> My answers in *RED* !
> *1.* The fact that the WS-18 is maybe a fall-back-option if the WS-20 is delayed does not mean they already use it and a suggestion by "some" is no prove and even more if even Chinese sources say the current Y-20As are using imported engines.
> *2.* No, but the H-6K is irrelevant to the current Y-20 since they will replaced by the new bomber.
> *3. *YES for sure they will, they have to if the WS-20 is delayed and especially even more there was just a sale of 224 D-30KP2 in July 2016.
> 
> http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2212133.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So You are still dreaming !


Wrong wrong wrong.

WS-18 is not a fall back option. You seems to lack basic military tech. WS-20 is a oversized engine that cannot fit into modernized H-6K fuselage. It clearly show PLAAF planned WS-18 and H-6K in long terms Plan of PLAAF doctrine. H-6k is not bomber that will just go away just becos new H-8 come into service. It is the longest range stand off launching platform for PLAAF and basically a bomb truck for conventional bombing if needed.

Looking at how many H-6K are build. It will not retired in just a mere few years time. H-6K and H-8 are going to complement each other in PLAAF strategic. WS-18 are needed to supply H-6K bomber to ensure they are not going to depend on foreign supply for anytime.

J-20 are not using Russian imported AL-31F engine but domestic engine are facts. CCTV documentary already proves you are dead wrong. I don't need a foreigner tell me how to read Chinese of a Chinese documentary. If you want to be selective and be a slayer of China by listening to your so called fake Chinese source go ahead. You claimed they are reputable source? It just one side of your wishful thinking. You want me to play back the video from YouTube and teach you Chinese on interpretion of the info for J-20 engine?

Or you want to claim you as a German knows Chinese Better than mine?

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## Deino

Can You at least for once stay on topic and answer a question or even more give an argument ??

First of all, none of Your arguments is related to the question: DOES THE CURRENT Y-20 USE THE WS-18?? So just admit You don't know and everything 's fine.

1. to the WS-18 itself: a more than 30 years old engine reverse-engineered can only be a fall-back-option. What else should it be??
Yes for sure the H-6K will need engines for some time and maybe will get the WS-18 some day, but for now why this new large deal ?? To store them in a hall and wait similar to the dozen of J-10B the PLAAF is not using like You suggested? 

2. again the new bomber: I never said the H-6K will retire tomorrow and they surely have a few more years to fly. But first the new bomber is still years away - by the way it will never called H-8 (so much on Your knowledge !) and these will be the last H-6s replaced but they will always rely on this old, dated design with its small diameter.

So the WS-18 will eventually be the replacement for the Russian D-30KP2 and a fall-back-option for the WS-20 is delayed. But for now neither the current Y-20A nor the H-6K uses the WS-18; period.

PS: and the J-20 issue we should really leave out since it is not relevant You don't seem to be interested in arguments.

PPS: And why again these nationalistic rants ??? Even if You are a Chinese and can read Chinese that does not mean You understand everything. Your endless list of faults and errors, false assumptions and wrong claims is testimony. But again let's leave agree to disagree as long as You stay on topic and argue.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Can You at least for once stay on topic and answer a question or even more give an argument ??
> 
> First of all, none of Your arguments is related to the question: DOES THE CURRENT Y-20 USE THE WS-18?? So just admit You don't know and everything 's fine.
> 
> 1. to the WS-18 itself: a more than 30 years old engine reverse-engineered can only be a fall-back-option. What else should it be??
> Yes for sure the H-6K will need engines for some time and maybe will get the WS-18 some day, but for now why this new large deal ?? To store them in a hall and wait similar to the dozen of J-10B the PLAAF is not using like You suggested?
> 
> 2. again the new bomber: I never said the H-6K will retire tomorrow and they surely have a few more years to fly. But first the new bomber is still years away - by the way it will never called H-8 (so much on Your knowledge !) and these will be the last H-6s replaced but they will always rely on this old, dated design with its small diameter.
> 
> So the WS-18 will eventually be the replacement for the Russian D-30KP2 and a fall-back-option for the WS-20 is delayed. But for now neither the current Y-20A nor the H-6K uses the WS-18; period.
> 
> PS: and the J-20 issue we should really leave out since it is not relevant You don't seem to be interested in arguments.


where did you get the proof of WS-18 engine is delayed and it's real timeline?

WS-18 is not a mere 1:1 copy of D30kp2 engine. It will be incoprated with new tech to increase the thrust and lifespan. Aircraft fitted with WS-18 will have improvement over aircraft fitted with D30kp2.

ok, can you prove the engine on y-20 and H-6k are Russian imported D30kp2 engines?

Finally if you think deleted my comment about J-20 engine while your reply stay shows more or less of your insecure and failure to rebuke my point.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> where did you get the proof of WS-18 engine is delayed and it's real timeline?
> 
> WS-18 is not a mere 1:1 copy of D30kp2 engine. It will be incoprated with new tech to increase the thrust and lifespan. Aircraft fitted with WS-18 will have improvement over aircraft fitted with D30kp2.
> 
> ok, can you prove the engine on y-20 and H-6k are Russian imported D30kp2 engines?



Top Your first two parts:

1. irrelevant, even an improved D-30KP2-based WS-18 can never be better than a new WS-20. Or at least do You have other prove?
2. No I cannot prove that the Y-20 and H-6K are Russian using imported D30kp2 engines, but there are more than enough Chinese reports that say so and none says a WS-18 and then there are the confirmed sales of these engines. So again for what if there is a super-WS.18?

Therefore I try it again !!
- why are even Chinese sources speaking of "it is using imported engines" - aka imported D-30KP2?
- why was there a huge new purchase just last year if there's no need as You say? (see link above)
- why is there with no word anything mentioned on the WS-18? (if it should be ready like You suggest)

3 simple questions ... can't be too difficult to answer.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Top Your first two parts:
> 
> 1. irrelevant, even an improved D-30KP2-based WS-18 can never be better than a new WS-20. Or at least do You have other prove?
> 2. No I cannot prove that the Y-20 and H-6K are Russian using imported D30kp2 engines, but there are more than enough Chinese reports that say so and none says a WS-18 and then there are the confirmed sales of these engines. So again for what if there is a super-WS.18?
> 
> Therefore I try it again !!
> - why are even Chinese sources speaking of "it is using imported engines" - aka imported D-30KP2?
> - why was there a huge new purchase just last year if there's no need as You say? (see link above)
> - why is there with no word anything mentioned on the WS-18? (if it should be ready like You suggest)
> 
> 3 simple questions ... can't be too difficult to answer.


Which is the Chinese source?

How big is big? Is it enough to fulfill all H-6K, new Il-76/78 joinining the fleet plus replacement of old D30kp2 plus new Y-20 joining the fleet?

I never say Ws- 18 is going to be better or replace Ws-20 but can Ws-20 replace Ws-18 for H-6k? No.
Can ws-18 fulfill Y-20 for strategic need, yes. PLAAF do not have 72 tons mbt to ferry around unlike USAF.

Is brand new H-6k going to just retired in a few years time? No.

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## Deino

Can You stay on topic ?? ... and why do You always try to derail a certain question with an issue far off.

Give me just one reliable source, that mentions the Y-20 uses the WS-18 or at least the WS-18 is ready, certified and in production.

All Your H-6K and H-8 (plain wrong by the way) comments are irrelevant even more since You are twisting words again.


----------------------------------------------------------------

I try it again, since more than one question seem to confuse You:

1. Name one reliable source, that mentions the Y-20 uses the WS-18 !


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## JSCh



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## Deino

So given by the first image there are at least three Y-20As.


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## terranMarine

Deino said:


> So given by the first image there are at least three Y-20As.


I bet there are at least 5 Y-20

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## Deino

terranMarine said:


> I bet there are at least 5 Y-20



Given the new deliveries I agree ... But confirmed ?


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## terranMarine

Deino said:


> Given the new deliveries I agree ... But confirmed ?








prototype
781,783,785, ,788
http://plarealtalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/y-20-788.jpg

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## Deino

terranMarine said:


> View attachment 406136
> 
> 
> prototype
> 781,783,785, ,788
> http://plarealtalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/y-20-788.jpg



Isn't there also a 786 and a 789 ??

And yes ... But I mean operational ones within the 4. Division.


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## grey boy 2

The 3rd Y-20A in service PS: the 3rd Il-78 has been delivered as well
武汉某机场4月23日卫星图片。随着第三架Y-20A的服役，第三架Il-78也已到货。

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## grey boy 2

Qionglai Airport, May 1, 2017
邛崃机场，2017年5月1号。咦，中间那架Y-20A怎么不见了？？[二哈] 另：附上一张武汉某机场5月27号的GE卫星图，品质比TS的图要好一些。

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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> Qionglai Airport, May 1, 2017
> 邛崃机场，2017年5月1号。咦，中间那架Y-20A怎么不见了？？[二哈] 另：附上一张武汉某机场5月27号的GE卫星图，品质比TS的图要好一些。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wuhan airport May 27



The last photo is IL-78 Midas

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## Deino

Beast said:


> The last photo is IL-78 Midas



 No, surely not !!

@grey boy 2's image (at least the one You quoted with 2 aircraft) are taken at Qionglai, where the 4th Division equipped with Y-20As is based, also both are dark grey in camo and lack the typical IFR-pods ... which You can clearly see - if You take care for details - in the other image showing three aircraft in light grey camo.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> No, surely not !!
> 
> @grey boy 2's image (at least the one You quoted with 2 aircraft) are taken at Qionglai, where the 4th Division equipped with Y-20As is based, also both are dark grey in camo and lack the typical IFR-pods ... which You can clearly see - if You take care for details - in the other image showing three aircraft in light grey camo.
> 
> View attachment 406365


What nonsense are you talking about? I did say last photo. Dont tell me you dont even know what last photo mean scanning from top to bottom?

Are you just for the sake of rebuking without with even bother read and see carefully?

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## Deino

Beast said:


> What nonsense are you talking about? I did say last photo. Dont tell me you dont even know what last photo mean scanning from top to bottom?
> 
> Are you just for the sake of rebuking without with even bother read and see carefully?




I know You are well known for ranting, twisting words and being ignorant but now You are even proving that You are arrogant to the best (or Beast) !!!

Your post #940 clearly quoted the *last image* posted in this thread as a direct quote of the *last image* posted by @grey boy 2 (aka post #939), which is clearly labeled "Qionglai Airport, May 1, 2017" and replied "The last photo is IL-78 Midas", which is wrong !

Just go back and look:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-20...-news-discussions.231628/page-63#post-9604976

The issue is that You replied in a quote without taking-out the Y-20 image, so that in a direct quote - esp. after grey boy 2 edited his post - the Il-78-part is no longer visible. Once again: If You want to explain something and even more avoid certain misunderstandings take care that You only quote the important part ... 

So don't try again blinded by Your arrogance to twist.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> I know You are well known for ranting, twisting words and being ignorant but now You are even proving that You are arrogant to the best (or Beast) !!!
> 
> Your post #940 clearly quoted the *last image* posted in this thread as a direct quote of the *last image* posted by @grey boy 2 (aka post #939), which is clearly labeled "Qionglai Airport, May 1, 2017" and replied "The last photo is IL-78 Midas", which is wrong !
> 
> Just go back and look:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-20...-news-discussions.231628/page-63#post-9604976
> 
> The issue is that You replied in a quote without taking-out the Y-20 image, so that in a direct quote - esp. after grey boy 2 edited his post - the Il-78-part is no longer visible. Once again: If You want to explain something and even more avoid certain misunderstandings take care that You only quote the important part ...
> 
> So don't try again blinded by Your arrogance to twist.
> 
> Deino


I take the this as a personal attack. Please bother to see what I quote. I don't care whether greyboy edit or what ever. My comment of last of Midas still valid on the time of I am posting. Where your useless personal rant is irrelevant to to my reference other than trying to tarnish my reputation.

It's more of your twisting and arrogant that trying to misled reader of my impression. Maybe you are a moderator and you think you are a step above others and start abusing your power? 

@waz @Shotgunner51

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## grey boy 2

@Deino @Beast , i did deleted the last, 2nd image from my post 939, sorry if i've been causing confusion to you guys, my fault, please let it go

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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> @Deino @Beast , i did deleted the last, 2nd image from my post 939, sorry if i've been causing confusion to you guys, my fault, please let it go


No worry friend. You are doing a fine job. If some trouble maker wants to find fault with me, he can come out with 10000 excuse that can be irrelevant. I have my quote at that time to prove my point. Everybody can see for themselves.

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## cnleio

WS-20 jet engine testing, will for Y-20

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> WS-20 jet engine testing, will for Y-20
> 
> ]




Is the first image a recent one ? ... And any reports about that mishap of a broken shaft some weeks ago?


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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

Lucky little girl 

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1874361-1-1.html

But it seems as if her parent again erased the serials ! :-(

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## cirr

05

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## cirr

03

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## lcloo

Lucky boys attending youth summer camp!

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## Deino

#03 !

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## 帅的一匹

Will they lengthen the fuselage when the new engine is prepared?


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## JSCh



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## cirr

Deino said:


> #03 !
> View attachment 417353
> View attachment 417354



#08 and counting...

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## Deino

cirr said:


> #08 and counting...




But still no images ? ... also #04, #6 and #07 missing.


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## sheik

cirr said:


> 03
> 
> View attachment 416712



This chubby girl was smiling

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## Deino

So Y-20 with the serial number 11053 is actually c/n. 20012


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/899169592001429504


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## cirr



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## grey boy 2

HD pictures

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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

Thanks to the never ending efforts of "Honorable Wall Climbers" (四机同框，当了一回爬墙党)
4 Y-20 spotted, 6 being confirmed so far

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## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> Thanks to the never ending efforts of "Honorable Wall Climbers" (四机同框，当了一回爬墙党)
> 4 Y-20 spotted, 6 being confirmed so far


It appears that they're waiting for the WS-20 to be incorporated ... no wonder why the low production

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## grey boy 2



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## Beast

Figaro said:


> It appears that they're waiting for the WS-20 to be incorporated ... no wonder why the low production


6 already in service and surely a few more in pipeline ready to be delivered end of the year. I dont think if 8 Y-20 to be produced in a year is considered a slow production.

I predict we will not see the so called W20 install on Y-20 anytime sooner. The fat engine we saw tested on IL-76 testbed is not WS20 but CJ1000 engine to be used on C919.

China has no problem on Y-20 engine. They are using WS-18 which is an upgrade clone of D30KP2. China unlike US which needs to transport a 72 tons MBT. WS-18 thrust is enough to satisfy PLAAF global transport in the next 10 years since we do not forsee the need to transport a 72tons mbt around. PLA heaviest mbt is only 54tons. The requirement is different from USAF. The best is WS-18 is used on H-6k, a new bomber which is currenly mass produced for PLAAF and is part of PLAAF global strike due to its longe range plus the capacity to carry many stand off CJ-2000 cruise missile.

There is no need to add in another variant of engine into military to complicate the logistics of PLAAF.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> 6 already in service and surely a few more in pipeline ready to be delivered end of the year. I dont think if 8 Y-20 to be produced in a year is considered a slow production.
> 
> I predict we will not see the so called W20 install on Y-20 anytime sooner. The fat engine we saw tested on IL-76 testbed is not WS20 but CJ1000 engine to be used on C919.
> 
> China has no problem on Y-20 engine. They are using WS-18 which is an upgrade clone of D30KP2. China unlike US which needs to transport a 72 tons MBT. WS-18 thrust is enough to satisfy PLAAF global transport in the next 10 years since we do not forsee the need to transport a 72tons mbt around. PLA heaviest mbt is only 54tons. The requirement is different from USAF. The best is WS-18 is used on H-6k, a new bomber which is currenly mass produced for PLAAF and is part of PLAAF global strike due to its longe range plus the capacity to carry many stand off CJ-2000 cruise missile.
> 
> There is no need to add in another variant of engine into military to complicate the logistics of PLAAF.


I thought they were still using that D-30KP-2 engines, not the WS-18 or WS-20. The fact that the current engines look *identical *to the Russian ones does not bode well. Right now, the Y-20 can only hold around 50 tonnes, but with the WS-20 it can do around the mid 60's. Remember, copying engines is just as arduous and difficult, why not just design a new engine entirely? More importantly, China has a limited stockpile of D30KP2s and probably doesn't want more ...


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> I thought they were still using that D-30KP-2 engines, not the WS-18 or WS-20. The fact that the current engines look *identical *to the Russian ones does not bode well. Right now, the Y-20 can only hold around 50 tonnes, but with the WS-20 it can do around the mid 60's. Remember, copying engines is just as arduous and difficult, why not just design a new engine entirely? More importantly, China has a limited stockpile of D30KP2s and probably doesn't want more ...


WS-18 looks identical to D30kp2. Who told you it supposed to look different? Chinese RE the D30kp2 but the metallurgy has improved result in better lifespan and higher thrust.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2015/01/ws-18-new-type-of-aircraft-engine.html#.WcakzbKg_IU

https://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/ws18/

The supply of engines are not restricted by Russian. Everything is homegrown.


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## Figaro

Beast said:


> WS-18 looks identical to D30kp2. Who told you it supposed to look different? Chinese RE the D30kp2 but the metallurgy has improved result in better lifespan and higher thrust.


I’m not sure about that ... why not just accept it that the Y-20’s engine is a D30kp2? Why would they make an identical WS-18 when there’s a WS-20 in the pipeline? And once again, copying engines is extremely difficult ... let alone making them look identical.

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> I’m not sure about that ... why not just accept it that the Y-20’s engine is a D30kp2? Why would they make an identical WS-18 when there’s a WS-20 in the pipeline? And once again, copying engines is extremely difficult ... let alone making them look identical.



Listen, only WS-18 engines which is identical in size to D30kp2 can fit into the brand new, newly made H-6k advance bomber. See the H-6k bomber engine inlet and do you think the fat WS-20 can fit into the new H-6k?

H-6k are to stay with PLAAF for another decades or more. They will not be decommission soon since they are just freshly made few years ago . If there is no WS-18, you expect China to depend on Russia engine supply for their strategic H-6k for the next decades or more? China will never depend on critical component from others in long term. They do plan alot. WS-18 had long planned in the past 10 years or more.

WS-20 which is also aka CJ-1000 engine are more for C919 project.

Why not you accept the engine on Y-20 is WS-18? Why must it be D30kp2? WS-18 has higher thrust and better lifespan, it will gives H6k more payload. Same as Y-20.
But most importantly, China can made as many H-6k, Y-20 with no restriction.


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan army aiforce did not bought heavy lifters or cargo planes since C 130 Hercules IL 76 was good induction but we cannot take it in stretegic lifter catogry since it was bought for mid air refueling

Pakistan Airforce and army comibinly procure these Y 20 for stretegic lifter it will be handy to drop our AL KHALIDS directly in battles and Pak Marines can use it too for lifting their goods of air defence radars in kach areas where no one can go


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## Figaro

I think China needs at least 50 of these in the near time ... that would significantly increase their logistical abilities by astronomical amounts ... unfortunately, I don't see this happening until the WS-20 incorporation which is going to happen in a year.


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## grey boy 2

Y-20 has successfully completed the 1st flight test with passengers from the large aircraft R & D team members 
*这是我国大型军用运输机运-20进行的首次人员空运试验*。运输装载试验是今年试飞任务的重中之重，*人员空运试验为其中的一项重要科目，存在“规模大、风险大、组织难度大”等突出特点。*

该试验的顺利完成，有效验证了飞机的运输性能、设计的安全性以及系统的稳定性，进一步给用户建立了信心。此外，*此次飞行也是截至目前我国自主研制飞机搭乘人员最多的一次飞行。*

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## JSCh

* New Chinese aircraft has a record number of passengers *
Source:Global Times Published: 2017/9/24 23:18:40



A Y-20 transport aircraft taxis in Chengdu, capital of Southwest China’s Sichuan Province on June 16, 2016. File photo: VCG

China's heavy transport aircraft the Y-20 welcomed its first group of passengers aboard on Friday, while setting a record for the number of people carried on a single flight by a domestic aircraft.

The success of this flight clearly demonstrated the performance, safety and stability of the Y-20 in the first test flight of this kind, which will boost customer confidence in the aircraft, the Aviation Industry Corporation of China's (AVIC) First Aircraft Institute announced on Saturday on its WeChat account.

Qiang Suihong, an AVIC engineer who took part in the flight, said, "As one of the developers, I'm really honored and proud to be on board the aircraft."

"The experience during the flight and communications with the flight crew will help us find any deficiencies in the design and make progress in the future," Qiang said.

The passengers were all members of an AVIC Y-20 development group.

The State-owned AVIC was responsible for both the design and manufacturing of the Y-20 long-range transport aircraft, which had its maiden flight in January 2013, and made its debut at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, in November 2014.

The aircraft officially went into full service with the Chinese air force in July 2016.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Listen, only WS-18 engines which is identical in size to D30kp2 can fit into the brand new, newly made H-6k advance bomber. See the H-6k bomber engine inlet and do you think the fat WS-20 can fit into the new H-6k?
> 
> H-6k are to stay with PLAAF for another decades or more. They will not be decommission soon since they are just freshly made few years ago . If there is no WS-18, you expect China to depend on Russia engine supply for their strategic H-6k for the next decades or more? China will never depend on critical component from others in long term. They do plan alot. WS-18 had long planned in the past 10 years or more.
> 
> WS-20 which is also aka CJ-1000 engine are more for C919 project.
> 
> Why not you accept the engine on Y-20 is WS-18? Why must it be D30kp2? WS-18 has higher thrust and better lifespan, it will gives H6k more payload. Same as Y-20.
> But most importantly, China can made as many H-6k, Y-20 with no restriction.




Again Your strange WS-18 claim and even more a ridiculous new theory that the new engine si not the WS-20 but the CJ-1000?? and still no proof ???

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Again Your strange WS-18 claim and even more a ridiculous new theory that the new engine si not the WS-20 but the CJ-1000?? and still no proof ???


Y-20 designer Tang Changhong said WS-20 is going to be incorporated in either 2018 or 2019 this March.

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## samsara

*Y-20 Tests Passenger Transport*
http://www.eastpendulum.com/y-20-teste-transport-de-passagers
2017.09.25

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## lcloo

The project development team members of Y20 are so young, they will form core human assets for other future large transport projects.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> The project development team members of Y20 are so young, they will form core human assets for other future large transport projects.



Hmmm ??? Could it be that this image is not really related to this alleged first passenger flight and the development team since some details does not fit to this theory. Here's a summary of a discussion from another forum:



> Nothing critical, but I enjoy detective work and here is what I think.
> 
> The photo is surely not related to the test flight.
> 
> look at the t-shirts of the two men in the first row to the right, it says "千人计划"/1000plan. See this site http://www.1000plan.org/. It is an organization/program to attract oversea Chinese nationals or foreigners to return/migrate to China to work.
> Look at the name tag of the girl at the right-bottom corner. Her family name (the first character) is written as "蘇" which is the traditional form of "苏"/Su.
> Look at all their facial features, they are primarily from a certain region (southern ancestry).
> It is certainly taken in an air show, see the barriers and the AWAC and J-10 PLAF demo team?
> All tells that they are oversea Chinese or Chinese from Taiwan/Hongkong/Macau. Surely not from XAC which is guaranteed to have a very good/even mix of people from all corners of China.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Hmmm ??? Could it be that this image is not really related to this alleged first passenger flight and the development team since some details does not fit to this theory. Here's a summary of a discussion from another forum:


You are correct, those photos were released a couple of months ago. Remember the PLAAF letting young children and civilians go into the aircraft and examine it ... not related to the dev team at all! Just some lucky guests


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> Hmmm ??? Could it be that this image is not really related to this alleged first passenger flight and the development team since some details does not fit to this theory. Here's a summary of a discussion from another forum:


Well... eastpendulum.com is careless with the photo this time.

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## samsara

This seems to be a new Y - 20 aircraft, ready to be delivered.
To confirm.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/914411478660243457

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## grey boy 2

Nice HD picture of Y-20

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## grey boy 2

Y-20 from the movie scene "Sky Hunter" 《空天猎》 在片中空降特种部队时，还投下了数辆“山猫”全地形突击车。

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## Stealth

grey boy 2 said:


> Nice HD picture of Y-20



The right side (top) engines are bigger than the left side (bottom) engines ?


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## JSCh

From CCTV program,

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## Figaro

New Y-20

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## BDforever

grey boy 2 said:


> Nice HD picture of Y-20


I heard that BD Air force might get one

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## lcloo

Robots are being deployed in making Y20 transport jet. Not too sure about the first photo though, could be Y-9 or other plane.

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## Beast

KUKA sold to China is a big mistake by Europe. It ensure China robotic industries advance by two decades.

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## Deino



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## Deino

Figaro said:


> How many are there currently? I have 8 in service with the PLAAF ...



8 ??? Where did Yu get these from?

To admit I know these rumours and some here surely claim each and every image showing a Y-20 in the factory to be a new one.
Active are the numbers 01 to 05 with serials confirmed and maybe two more grey and yellow ones we've seen in short time since then, but by now neither 06, 07 nor 08 were spotted with their serials confirmed.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> 8 ??? Where did Yu get these from?
> 
> To admit I know these rumours and some here surely claim each and every image showing a Y-20 in the factory to be a new one.
> Active are the numbers 01 to 05 with serials confirmed and maybe two more grey and yellow ones we've seen in short time since then, but by now neither 06, 07 nor 08 were spotted with their serials confirmed.
> 
> View attachment 433995


FYJS claimed 8 will be operational and in service by end of this year. Given that 2 has already entered service from last year. A production of 6 for a year is not very far off and in fact quite slow.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> FYJS claimed 8 will be operational and in service by end of this year. Given that 2 has already entered service from last year. A production of 6 for a year is not very far off and in fact quite slow.


It's not really slow at all. China has no intention of mass producing the Y-20 given its current under-powered engines. Considering that the WS-20 will be incorporated on the Y-20 in 2018, it makes sense for the PLAAF to wait a little longer for them ... and only then will we see them being churned out in large numbers.


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## cirr



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## Deino

Beast said:


> FYJS claimed 8 will be operational and in service by end of this year. Given that 2 has already entered service from last year. A production of 6 for a year is not very far off and in fact quite slow.




Agreed. That surely highly likely by year's end, and as You mention "a production of 6 for a year is not very far off" - equals to 1 aircraft per two months - but it is a difference between "already operational" and "produced"?

IMO confirmed operational are 5 with one more highly likely. Altogether produced are 6 this years and two more in 2016 so 8 altogether.

Deino


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## 52051

Beast said:


> KUKA sold to China is a big mistake by Europe. It ensure China robotic industries advance by two decades.



I think even without Kuka,China's robotic industries would have been advanced in 1.8 decades at least, thats why the Europeans figured out it is rather optimal for them to sold China this one now and take the cash and bragging rights, instead of watiing for another 2-3 years and get nothing.

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## samsara

Beast said:


> KUKA sold to China is a big mistake by Europe. It ensure China robotic industries advance by two decades.





52051 said:


> I think even without Kuka,China's robotic industries would have been advanced in 1.8 decades at least, thats why the Europeans figured out it is rather optimal for them to sold China this one now and take the cash and bragging rights, instead of watiing for another 2-3 years and get nothing.


European refused the Chinese participation in Galileo GNSS was indeed the big mistake... at the end what China came out with.. thought they have learned some lessons... just the same story as the American refusal for China's inclusion in ISS...

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## Han Patriot

samsara said:


> European refused the Chinese participation in Galileo GNSS was indeed the big mistake... at the end what China came out with.. thought they have learned some lessons... just the same story as the American refusal for China's inclusion in ISS...


Beidou was a big middle finger to EU. They are having a hard time securing slots now.

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## lcloo

This photo is said taken inside the assembly hall of Y20.

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## ChineseLuver

lcloo said:


> View attachment 435126
> 
> This photo is said taken inside the assembly hall of Y20.



WS-20??


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## Deino

ChineseLuver said:


> WS-20??



No, just a regular D-30KP-2.

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## Figaro

ChineseLuver said:


> WS-20??


The WS-20 is going to be incorporated by next year . Then the Chinese will mass produce the Y-20 ...


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> The WS-20 is going to be incorporated by next year . Then the Chinese will mass produce the Y-20 ...


No. Y-20 will produced at a steady pace of 8-10 per years. I would not want to see Y-20 production line to shut down in just few years time.


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## Figaro

Beast said:


> No. Y-20 will produced at a steady pace of 8-10 per years. I would not want to see Y-20 production line to shut down in just few years time.


I never said anything about the Y-20 being shut down ...


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> I never said anything about the Y-20 being shut down ...


Hi, mass produced Y-20 like 30-40 a year. After 5-4 years, the number of Y-20 is enough to satisfy PLAAF need What you expect the production line to do? Do you know why the C-17 shut down? Please google it


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> What are you even talking about? I never said that the Y-20 was going to be shut down ... I'm afraid you're attacking a straw man here


I think you still dont get what I mean. Your mass produced of Y-20 in such short time is a pipe dream and is harmful.


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## Figaro

Beast said:


> I think you still dont get what I mean. Your mass produced of Y-20 in such short time is a pipe dream and is harmful.


Once again, you don’t understand my statement. What I’m saying is the Y-20 will ramp up production after the WS-20 in 2018/19. China needs medium/large transport aircraft ... I would not be surprised at all if they produce Y-20s on a large scale. Currently, production is slow due to underpowered D-30 engines and it being relatively new.

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## Zarvan



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## Deino

Y-20A 11055 no. 05

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Y-20A 11055 no. 05
> 
> View attachment 439158



From an ad compaign posted by Xian Aircraft Industry. I upload it on Youtube.





The Y-20 production line. There are four Y-20s on the line.





A image of a H-6K:

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## samsara

The *5th* Y-20 in series, registered 11055, was delivered to the PLA Air Force on 07 August 2017.
East Pendulum 5:09 AM - 26 Nov 2017









。。。

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## cirr

Any updates on the facility purposedly built for the general assembly of H-20?


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Any updates on the facility purposedly built for the general assembly of H-20?



I thought the initial prototype already rolled out in June 2017?


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## Beast

samsara said:


> The *5th* Y-20 in series, registered 11055, was delivered to the PLA Air Force on 07 August 2017.
> East Pendulum 5:09 AM - 26 Nov 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 。。。


So now by November. Maybe the number 7th has enter service of PLAAF?


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/938365238407151621

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## Deino

Via the SDF:




jobjed said:


> I was watching a propaganda documentary from October and spotted a Y-20 under construction with a label of Y20-0220 on the scaffold. Could this be the 20th airframe from batch 2?

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Via the SDF:



However Henry K. has now another explanation:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/939693855758204929


> Base on my personal experience, this 10A340-Y20-0220 is painted on the production platform and not on the plane, so it doesn't mean anything to the aircraft serial. It indicates more likely the gantry's number, or frame / stringer's number, or the station's reference.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> However Henry K. has now another explanation:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/939693855758204929


20 sounds like a stretch ... I'd say there are around 12 at this point with the yellow ones that are yet to be assigned numbers ...

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## JSCh



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## cirr

Y-20s at XAC

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Y-20s at XAC




Impressive, most impressive ... any info on the current number count?


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## clarkgap

From weibo @飞舞的摩羯

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## Figaro

clarkgap said:


> From weibo @飞舞的摩羯
> 
> View attachment 445783


I count 7


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## cirr

clarkgap said:


> From weibo @飞舞的摩羯
> 
> View attachment 445783



Let's have at least a dozen of these in 2018. 

By the way, WS-20 is ready for batch production/delivery.

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## JSCh

Snow in Xi'an.
















​

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## JSCh



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## Deino

a bit bigger

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## JSCh

* New batch of Y-20 planes to boost military transport capability *
By Liu Caiyu Source:Global Times Published: 2018/1/10 17:32:15





Photo: news portal guancha.cn​
A batch of China's first domestically-developed heavy transport aircraft, the Y-20, was delivered to the People's Liberation Army (PLA) air force in West China recently, media reported on Wednesday. 

At least five Y-20 transporters went into service in the country's Western Theater Command, experts from news portal guancha.cn said, after Google screen grabs of the transporters were seen at an airport in Qionglai city, Sichuan Province on December 9. 

This was the first time so many Y-20 transporters had been seen in public after it officially entered service in the air force in 2016. 

The military in the Western Theater Command is currently equipped with Y-8 and Y-7 aircraft. 

The Y-20 will support transport missions in the Western Theater Command and will not completely replace the Y-8 and Y-7, Xu Yongling, a retired PLA chief test pilot and an expert at the Chinese Society of Aeronautics and Astronautics, told the Global Times.

"China has no more than 100 transport aircraft. This is still far short of transport demand. The Y-20, together with the Y-8 and Y-7, will complement each other and strengthen the PLA's overall transport capability," Xu said. 





Photo: news portal guancha.cn​
The Y-20 has a maximum takeoff weight of 200 tons and is ideal for transporting cargo and personnel over long distances in diverse weather conditions, the Xinhua News Agency reported. 

The Y-20 was developed by Xi'an Aircraft Industry, a subsidiary of China's leading military aircraft maker, the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, Xinhua reported. 

"The Y-20 will largely improve this situation, and will allow China to contribute more to international security, anti-piracy and global counter-terrorism," Song Zhongping, a military expert and TV commentator, had earlier told the Global Times.

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## Figaro

So how many Y-20’s are operational, apart from the 5 confirmed ...


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## Figaro

Y-20

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## JSCh

Transport aircraft in flight training - China Military

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> Transport aircraft in flight training - China Military



Thanks ... seems to include the first ever image of no. 06 !!! (via SDF)

http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2018-01/23/content_7918420_4.htm

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## Deino

Happy fifth Anniversary 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/956974540373901312

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## cirr

What a mix!

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## Beast

If these 2 yellow fellow are included. At least 10 Y-20 are in service.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> If these 2 yellow fellow are included. At least 10 Y-20 are in service.




Difficult to say - at least from this image - even if in principle I agree with you that the numbers built is easily 10.

However all we see in this image are two prototypes (#785 & 783), one grey serial bird and two yellow ones, so this images could easily - IMO most likely - be some older footage simply showing the first two serials birds.

Deino


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## cirr

Y-30

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Y-30



But isn't this more likely the MA.700 - a twin-engine regional turboprop airliner - than the Y-30, which is -or should be a - four-engine military transport??

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## Beast

Deino said:


> But isn't this more likely the MA.700 - a twin-engine regional turboprop airliner - than the Y-30, which is -or should be a - four-engine military transport??
> 
> View attachment 455834


Mean while....

_BEIJING—The first Avic MA700 turboprop airliner should be rolled out around the middle of 2019, following the start of manufacturing of long-lead parts in December 2017. A first flight is slated to follow by the end of 2019, but will happen then only if all goes smoothly, a program official said. First delivery earlier than 2022 looks unlikely. These dates indicate program slippage of more than a year from the 2016 schedule and three years from the targets that Avic set when it....

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ma700-roll-out-targeted-mid-2019-1st-delivery-likely-2022_

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## Beast

WS-18 engine for Y-20. Clone from DK-30kp2 but with more superior metallurgy which means higher lifespan and higher thrust. New WS-18K with even higher spec is ready for air trial.

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## clarkgap

Beast said:


> WS-18 engine for Y-20. Clone from DK-30kp2 but with more superior metallurgy which means higher lifespan and higher thrust. New WS-18K with even higher spec is ready for air trial.



gongke101 (a staff of Guizhou Liyang Aero-egine company) had said it:https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=2390963&pid=75243543&fromuid=1049960

However, it may also be installed on H-6.

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## Deino

via

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/972027078290780161

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> View attachment 458441
> 
> 
> via
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/972027078290780161



engines are tooo small ... truly unbalance aircraft...


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## Figaro

Stealth said:


> engines are tooo small ... truly unbalance aircraft...


Yeah ... but the high bypass ratio WS-20 Will be installed on Y-20 this year ...


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/972754362190716928

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## lcloo

A publishing from NOSTA - National Office for Science and Technology Awards stated "completed installing of Y-20's power units for engine gears of 30 aircraft 。

Question is this 30 aircraft is all inclusive? (i.e. proto types + aircraft already in service + aircraft being assembled), or all aircraft already in service + being assembled but excludes prototypes.






http://www.nosta.gov.cn/upload/2018slxmgb/fm_308/904-3002.html

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## LKJ86



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## Beast

lcloo said:


> A publishing from NOSTA - National Office for Science and Technology Awards stated "completed installing of Y-20's power units for engine gears of 30 aircraft 。
> 
> Question is this 30 aircraft is all inclusive? (i.e. proto types + aircraft already in service + aircraft being assembled), or all aircraft already in service + being assembled but excludes prototypes.
> 
> View attachment 461623
> 
> 
> http://www.nosta.gov.cn/upload/2018slxmgb/fm_308/904-3002.html


Deino, do you know what these few highlighted few sentences say? 

New engine core technology is used on the engine of Y-20 which spec excel even US aviation standard. If the engine of Y-20 is imported purely Russian DK-30kp2. Why even need to input of Chinese technology of engine core?

Another clear evidence engine of Y-20 is not as some expected of Russian imported. But as what I always claim WS-18 domestic engine. Outer look of engine is deceptive. It is the inner that counts. 

Ask you good Chinese friend to translate for you. and this new is from official Chinese website indicating national award for scientific achievement. Not some rumors or fake news.

Y-20 has long achieved 100% domestic made. Not even engine is imported.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> Deino, do you know what these few highlighted few sentences say?
> 
> New engine core technology is used on the engine of Y-20 which spec excel even US aviation standard. If the engine of Y-20 is imported purely Russian DK-30kp2. Why even need to input of Chinese technology of engine core?
> 
> Another clear evidence engine of Y-20 is not as some expected of Russian imported. But as what I always claim WS-18 domestic engine. Outer look of engine is deceptive. It is the inner that counts.
> 
> Ask you good Chinese friend to translate for you. and this new is from official Chinese website indicating national award for scientific achievement. Not some rumors or fake news.
> 
> Y-20 has long achieved 100% domestic made. Not even engine is imported.


It doesn’t matter if the Y-20 currently has Chinese engines or Russian ones. We all know that the WS-18/D30 is a low bypass engine that is unsuitable for the Y-20’s needs. The real creme de la creme is the high bypass WS-20, which is going to be incorporated on the Y-20 this year. Afterwards, the WS-18 will be of little use ...


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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> It doesn’t matter if the Y-20 currently has Chinese engines or Russian ones. We all know that the WS-18/D30 is a low bypass engine that is unsuitable for the Y-20’s needs. The real creme de la creme is the high bypass WS-20, which is going to be incorporated on the Y-20 this year. Afterwards, the WS-18 will be of little use ...


WS-18 can be used in H-6K.

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## LKJ86

---

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> It doesn’t matter if the Y-20 currently has Chinese engines or Russian ones. We all know that the WS-18/D30 is a low bypass engine that is unsuitable for the Y-20’s needs. The real creme de la creme is the high bypass WS-20, which is going to be incorporated on the Y-20 this year. Afterwards, the WS-18 will be of little use ...


Hi, WS-18 is not an exact copy of D30kp2. Its engine core and fan blade are definitely upgraded and performance is far superior than original Russian one. H-6K is reported to have far superior range, payload and cruising speed. I doubt by just swapping out with basic d30kp2 , such drastic change of performance can be ahieved.

It is important not to reply on foreign import. The number of Y-20 build will not be restricted and even export is possible. By the way, current Ws-18 satisfy the need of PLAAF strategic needs. PLA and marine do not have 60tons heavy tank like western and there fore current spec is more than adequate to handle 90% of China military transportation.

WS-20 is more important for the militarize of C919 as AWACS and MPA therefore China do not need US Leap engine for such task since they are not allowed to be link to military projects. SFA-100 engine will only be available in 2025. That is too late. As-20 will be used.

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## cirr



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## Dungeness

Beast said:


> Hi, WS-18 is not an exact copy of D30kp2. Its engine core and fan blade are definitely upgraded and performance is far superior than original Russian one. H-6K is reported to have far superior range, payload and cruising speed. I doubt by just swapping out with basic d30kp2 , such drastic change of performance can be ahieved.
> 
> It is important not to reply on foreign import. The number of Y-20 build will not be restricted and even export is possible. By the way, current Ws-18 satisfy the need of PLAAF strategic needs. PLA and marine do not have 60tons heavy tank like western and there fore current spec is more than adequate to handle 90% of China military transportation.
> 
> WS-20 is more important for the militarize of C919 as AWACS and MPA therefore China do not need US Leap engine for such task since they are not allowed to be link to military projects. SFA-100 engine will only be available in 2025. That is too late. As-20 will be used.



Old H-6s were fitted with Chinese WP-8 jet engines. D-30 turbofan engines are used on H-6Ks, hence the performance boost.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> View attachment 469927



Aerial refueling variant possibly?


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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/f62k1naNHUSL8jR92gL4tw


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## Imran Khan

sill same engines man


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## Figaro

Imran Khan said:


> sill same engines man


The WS-20 is slated to be placed on the Y-20 in the latter half of this year ...

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 470398
> View attachment 470399
> View attachment 470400
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/f62k1naNHUSL8jR92gL4tw



J-20 uses a probe + drogue, not boom-type refueling.

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## Beast

Imran Khan said:


> sill same engines man


Y-20 currently uses WS-18 domestic engine which looks like Russian D30KP2 but has more power output and longer lifespan. It can fulfill PLAAF needs.

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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/v9j59tQz0o7Vu2y8Nn_oEQ

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Y-20 currently uses WS-18 domestic engine which looks like Russian D30KP2 but has more power output and longer lifespan. It can fulfill PLAAF needs.




Sorry to nit-pick ... there is so for proof for this even more to the contrary other reports I know say, that the WS-18 was indeed initiated as a fall-back option in case the WS-20 fails or encounters technical issues, but since it is fine it has been downgraded to a technical project only with no further serial production at least not for the Y-20.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Sorry to nit-pick ... there is so for proof for this even more to the contrary other reports I know say, that the WS-18 was indeed initiated as a fall-back option in case the WS-20 fails or encounters technical issues, but since it is fine it has been downgraded to a technical project only with no further serial production at least not for the Y-20.


I think at this point, the WS-18's primary target is the H-6K or future variants, not the Y-20. A modernized low bypass engine would suit the H-6 quite well.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> I think at this point, the WS-18's primary target is the H-6K or future variants, not the Y-20. A modernized low bypass engine would suit the H-6 quite well.



Agreed ... but to admit besides Beast's constant claims I did not read anything stating it is in production and even more fitted to the Y-20 or H-6K.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Sorry to nit-pick ... there is so for proof for this even more to the contrary other reports I know say, that the WS-18 was indeed initiated as a fall-back option in case the WS-20 fails or encounters technical issues, but since it is fine it has been downgraded to a technical project only with no further serial production at least not for the Y-20.



Engine is a secret spec for all PLAAF aircraft. You will not get a clear cut answer from PLA official media. But from official PLA documentary and news. You can combine the jigsaw puzzle and get the good estimate answer for the engine. Deino, you are a long time PLA follower. I think I do not need to repeat this aspect about the secrecy of PLAAF aircraft engine. Tell me which official aircraft in service of PLAAF/PLANAF will have a full breakdown of all the spec of the engine in service? Tell me?

If I go by your theory. Basically there is no engine installed on any of PLAAF aircraft becos you cannot get any accurate engine spec, right? To simply outright deny a highly credible aspect is clearly a lack of understanding of China military progress.

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## Deino

Thanks for your answer and I have to contradict - at least a bit - ... it is not that I expect (even if I dare) for specifications but at least get an info on what specific type.

And to admit for the Y-20 I know no reliable report stating it is powered by indigenous engines, aka the WS-18.

Best,
Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Thanks for your answer and I have to contradict - at least a bit - ... it is not that I expect (even if I dare) for specifications but at least get an info on what specific type.
> 
> And to admit for the Y-20 I know no reliable report stating it is powered by indigenous engines, aka the WS-18.
> 
> Best,
> Deino


Is there any reliable source or from Xinhua or PLAAF official statement that claim the engines used on Y-20 is DK30Kp2 Russia import version?


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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> I think at this point, the WS-18's primary target is the H-6K or future variants, not the Y-20. A modernized low bypass engine would suit the H-6 quite well.






Beast said:


> Is there any reliable source or from Xinhua or PLAAF official statement that claim the engines used on Y-20 is DK30Kp2 Russia import version?


WS18 for H6K and WS20 for Y20.


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> WS18 for H6K and WS20 for Y20.


That means it’s only hearsay? It’s funny some ask me to produce reliable proof of WS-18 used on Y-20 while himself can’t proved the engine used on Y-20 is Russian imported D30kp2. 

WS-20 will definitely used on Y-20 but not in near future. It’s not that urgent and critical. Current engine fulfill PLAAF need.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> That means it’s only hearsay? It’s funny some ask me to produce reliable proof of WS-18 used on Y-20 while himself can’t proved the engine used on Y-20 is Russian imported D30kp2.
> 
> WS-20 will definitely used on Y-20 but not in near future. It’s not that urgent and critical. Current engine fulfill PLAAF need.


No one can deny that China has all the know-how to produce WS18, I think WS20 is a better choice for Y20.

High by-pass ratio means longer range.

Fuel efficient is very important for a tanker.

When we have 50 units of Y20 tanker, PLAAF will be an attacking force. It's more important than strategic bomber. My definition for strategic airforce in the sequence of priority:
1: tanker in numbers
2. Strategic bomber
3. Dual engine stealthy fighter

The good day just begin, wait and see.

we will be a peaceful super power, so just aim high and stay patient.

Sometimes I will loose patient when trolls claim BLK52 is superior thanJ10c.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> No one can deny that China has all the know-how to produce WS18, I think WS20 is a better choice for Y20.
> 
> Low by-pass ratio means longer range.
> 
> Fuel efficient is very important for a tanker.
> 
> When we have 50 units of Y20 tanker, PLAAF will be an attacking force. It's more important than strategic bomber. My definition for strategic airforce in the sequence of priority:
> 1: tanker in numbers
> 2. Strategic bomber
> 3. Dual engine stealthy fighter
> 
> The good day just begin, wait and see.


There is mention that the improved WS-18 has better thrust and fuel consumption. Definitely WS-20 will be better but may at the expense of higher cost procurement. Remember, PLA is still very prudent when comes to spending. Given that PLAAF has a huge number of H6K to maintain. It will be wise to continue produced WS-18 to satisfy Y-20 and H-6K.

Be reminded, if you introduced WS-20 to Y-20. PLAAF needs to maintain 2 overhaul plant of WS-20 and WS-18 as H-6K bomber cannot used WS-20.

By using only one of Type of engine of WS-18, it will simplify PLAAF production and maintainenance issue. H-6K is produced in large number. There is estimated near 100 over H-6K made. It is not a interim bomber but part of PLAAF long term deployment. It will stay at least a decades and more. WS-18 needs to continue produced to maintain these fleet of bomber. If I am PLAAF today level brass, I too will opt for WS-18 for both Y-20 and H-6K. WS-20 maybe introduced for the stretch version of Y-20 given that higher payload is needed.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> There is mention that the improved WS-18 has better thrust and fuel consumption. Definitely WS-20 will be better but may at the expense of higher cost procurement. Remember, PLA is still very prudent when comes to spending. Given that PLAAF has a huge number of H6K to maintain. It will be wise to continue produced WS-18 to satisfy Y-20 and H-6K.
> 
> Be reminded, if you introduced WS-20 to Y-20. PLAAF needs to maintain 2 overhaul plant of WS-20 and WS-18 as H-6K bomber cannot used WS-20.
> 
> By using only one of Type of engine of WS-18, it will simplify PLAAF production and maintainenance issue. H-6K is produced in large number. There is estimated near 100 over H-6K made. It is not a interim bomber but part of PLAAF long term deployment. It will stay at least a decades and more. WS-18 needs to continue produced to maintain these fleet of bomber. If I am PLAAF today level brass, I too will opt for WS-18 for both Y-20 and H-6K. WS-20 maybe introduced for the stretch version of Y-20 given that higher payload is needed.


Point taken

Any way, WS20 is the future.

As you mentioned, it maybe installed on a enlarged Y20 for longer range and higher payload.

It's good to see PLAAF never give up improving their platform.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> There is mention that the improved WS-18 has better thrust and fuel consumption. Definitely WS-20 will be better but may at the expense of higher cost procurement. Remember, PLA is still very prudent when comes to spending. Given that PLAAF has a huge number of H6K to maintain. It will be wise to continue produced WS-18 to satisfy Y-20 and H-6K.
> 
> Be reminded, if you introduced WS-20 to Y-20. PLAAF needs to maintain 2 overhaul plant of WS-20 and WS-18 as H-6K bomber cannot used WS-20.
> 
> By using only one of Type of engine of WS-18, it will simplify PLAAF production and maintainenance issue. H-6K is produced in large number. There is estimated near 100 over H-6K made. It is not a interim bomber but part of PLAAF long term deployment. It will stay at least a decades and more. WS-18 needs to continue produced to maintain these fleet of bomber. If I am PLAAF today level brass, I too will opt for WS-18 for both Y-20 and H-6K. WS-20 maybe introduced for the stretch version of Y-20 given that higher payload is needed.


The WS-20 is definitely more preferable that the WS-18. No doubt. First, the WS-18 is a low bypass engine based on a nearly 40 year old design. The WS-20 is a modern high bypass engine, which is based on the WS-10 core, and thus much better regardless of cost procurement. The PLAAF would never sacrifice transport capacity and range (ws-18) over some increased costs ... if so, why did they even design the WS-20 in the first place?



wanglaokan said:


> Point taken
> 
> Any way, WS20 is the future.
> 
> As you mentioned, it maybe installed on a enlarged Y20 for longer range and higher payload.
> 
> It's good to see PLAAF never give up improving their platform.


The Y-20 designer already confirmed that the WS-20 Is going to be installed in the latter half of this year. A WS-18 Is basically completely unsuitable for a regular Y-20, let alone an enlarged variant

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> The WS-20 is definitely more preferable that the WS-18. No doubt. First, the WS-18 is a low bypass engine based on a nearly 40 year old design. The WS-20 is a modern high bypass engine, which is based on the WS-10 core, and thus much better regardless of cost procurement.


Hi, I think you still don’t understand the basic of simplify logistic and Maintain low cost. Keep on ranting the good performance while ignoring the cost and logistic of maintaining 2 types engine. 

Sure USAF F-22 raptor is world beater and you shall ask pentagon why they keep F-22 number at 187? You really think US can print money at will? 
Same applied to PLAAF.


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## Figaro

Beast said:


> Hi, I think you still don’t understand the basic of simplify logistic and Maintain low cost. Keep on ranting the good performance while ignoring the cost and logistic of maintaining 2 types engine.
> 
> Sure USAF F-22 raptor is world beater and you shall ask pentagon why they keep F-22 number at 187? You really think US can print money at will?
> Same applied to PLAAF.


But this has nothing to do with logistic simplification and costs. With China having a nearly 200 billion dollar military budget, I highly doubt they would sacrifice important transport capabilities for negligible benefits. Without the WS-20, the Y-20 transport capacity will be lowered by at least 10 tonnes ... in addition to range and fuel consumption issues. Moreover, why would China even develop the WS-20 if the WS-18 was satisfactory? The WS-18 is a *low-bypass* engine, unsuitable/highly not preferable for transport aircraft


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> The WS-20 is definitely more preferable that the WS-18. No doubt. First, the WS-18 is a low bypass engine based on a nearly 40 year old design. The WS-20 is a modern high bypass engine, which is based on the WS-10 core, and thus much better regardless of cost procurement. The PLAAF would never sacrifice transport capacity and range (ws-18) over some increased costs ... if so, why did they even design the WS-20 in the first place?
> 
> 
> The Y-20 designer already confirmed that the WS-20 Is going to be installed in the latter half of this year. A WS-18 Is basically completely unsuitable for a regular Y-20, let alone an enlarged variant
> 
> 
> What do you mean??? Flight testing is already over and I believe the units have already been delivered ...



The designer in fact claim its early of the year and we yet to see WS-20 install onboard Y-20. May I know when will enlarge Y-20 debut? Currently WS-18 fits the bill of PLAAF for Y-20. It will continue serves Y-20 for 3-4 years before WS-20 comes into the picture.


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> But this has nothing to do with logistic simplification and costs. With China having a nearly 200 billion dollar military budget, I highly doubt they would sacrifice important transport capabilities for negligible benefits. Without the WS-20, the Y-20 transport capacity will be lowered by at least 10 tonnes ... in addition to range and fuel consumption issues. Moreover, why would China even develop the WS-20 if the WS-18 was satisfactory? The WS-18 is a *low-bypass* engine, unsuitable/highly not preferable for transport aircraft


Let me ask you one simple question. Can the current Y-20 with WS-18 or D30kp2 engine haul a 54 tons Type99A2 MBT? If you replaced with WS-20. Can the Y-20 haul 2 MBT? The additional 10tons advantage is useless at the expense of more logistic problem, more cost. 

Even the current Y-20 with WS-18 payload is more than Europe A400M. I don’t see how inferior or as bad as u claim. Unless you tell me Y-20 decide to haul NATO leopard 2 or Merkava MBT. But do you think that is a possible?
Y-20 is designed to fulfill PLA needs and is not to tailor for NATO weaponery.



Figaro said:


> Why do you think that there will be an enlarged variant??? The current Y-20s equipped with D-30/WS-18 engines are already at a considerable disadvantage ... the WS-20 is aimed at rectifying the engine issue of standard Y-20s, not an enlarged variant. Until the Y-20 is inducted in meaningful numbers, I see no reason for a debut of an even larger variant. Just a couple Y-20s will mean a significant boost to the PLAAF transport fleet. The WS-18 definietely does not fit the bill for the Y-20 ... just like the AL-31 does not fit the bill for the J-20.


Is not what I think, is what AVIC think. Do not ask me, please go and ask AVIC why they want an enlarged version of Y-20.

https://www.popsci.com/mega-planes-...-next-generation-air-cargo-and-transportation

I am not making assumption. This mode is showed what the future and direction of Y-20. WS-20 will be required for this bigger baby. But currently, WS-18 fulfil PLAAF needs


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## Figaro

Beast said:


> Let me ask you one simple question. Can the current Y-20 with WS-18 or D30kp2 engine haul a 54 tons Type99A2 MBT? If you replaced with WS-20. Can the Y-20 haul 2 MBT? The additional 10tons advantage is useless at the expense of more logistic problem, more cost.
> 
> Even the current Y-20 with WS-18 payload is more than Europe A400M. I don’t see how inferior or as bad as u claim. Unless you tell me Y-20 decide to haul NATO leopard 2 or Merkava MBT. But do you think that is a possible?
> Y-20 is designed to fulfill PLA needs and is not to tailor for NATO weaponery.


I really don't see your point here. The extra ten tonnes could be used for extra supplies ... not just a heavy MBT. But more importantly, I cannot understand your refusal to believe that a low bypass, 40 year old WS-18 design is sufficient for a transport aircraft. I'm sure you understand that the WS-20 is a high bypass engine tailored to transport planes, while the WS-18 is more suitable for H-6 variants. If logistics and costs were really an issue, why would AVIC go through the pain of developing the WS-20? Why would are they starting to incorporate WS-10X into the J-20 or testing the TVC on the J-10? According to your reasoning, all this amounts to expensive logistical problems.


Beast said:


> https://www.popsci.com/mega-planes-...-next-generation-air-cargo-and-transportation
> 
> I am not making assumption. This mode is showed what the future and direction of Y-20. WS-20 will be required for this bigger baby. But currently, WS-18 fulfil PLAAF needs


I am not discounting the possibility of a larger Y-20 variant. I just don't believe it is necessary currently and am doubtful it will show up in the short to mid term. For now, the PLAAF's goal is to get as many Y-20s inducted as possible and incorporate the WS-20. And once again, the WS-18 does not fulfill the PLAAF's needs. Having a mediocre low-bypass engine is definitely not ideal or even satisfactory for the Y-20 ... it is more of a necessity due to the lack of a domestic substitute hitherto.


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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> Let me ask you one simple question. Can the current Y-20 with WS-18 or D30kp2 engine haul a 54 tons Type99A2 MBT? If you replaced with WS-20. Can the Y-20 haul 2 MBT? The additional 10tons advantage is useless at the expense of more logistic problem, more cost.
> 
> Even the current Y-20 with WS-18 payload is more than Europe A400M. I don’t see how inferior or as bad as u claim. Unless you tell me Y-20 decide to haul NATO leopard 2 or Merkava MBT. But do you think that is a possible?
> Y-20 is designed to fulfill PLA needs and is not to tailor for NATO weaponery.


but Range is unsatisfactory with WS-18 due high fuel consumption (low by pass ratio ) @Beast


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> but Range is unsatisfactory with WS-18 due high fuel consumption (low by pass ratio ) @Beast


Do u know what is the current range of Y-20?


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Hi, I think you still don’t understand the basic of simplify logistic and Maintain low cost. Keep on ranting the good performance while ignoring the cost and logistic of maintaining 2 types engine.
> 
> Sure USAF F-22 raptor is world beater and you shall ask pentagon why they keep F-22 number at 187? You really think US can print money at will?
> Same applied to PLAAF.


WS20 is very important for China, both militaryor civilian purpose.

Stop抬杠

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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> Do u know what is the current range of Y-20?


yes, 4500 KM with 60 tons, (full load) 7800 with 40 tons and with paratroopers 10,000 km but if to make an AWACS and Tanker based on Y-20 you need to better engine of better fuel efficiency to give more time on station 
(air) and range @Beast sir

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## 帅的一匹

As I said, if Y20 gonna be modified to a tanker, WS18 is not fuel efficient.



pakistanipower said:


> yes, 4500 KM with 60 tons, (full load) 7800 with 40 tons and with paratroopers 10,000 km but if to make an AWACS and Tanker based on Y-20 you need to better engine of better fuel efficiency to give more time on station
> (air) and range @Beast sir


Bingo

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> I really don't see your point here. The extra ten tonnes could be used for extra supplies ... not just a heavy MBT. But more importantly, I cannot understand your refusal to believe that a low bypass, 40 year old WS-18 design is sufficient for a transport aircraft. I'm sure you understand that the WS-20 is a high bypass engine tailored to transport planes, while the WS-18 is more suitable for H-6 variants. If logistics and costs were really an issue, why would AVIC go through the pain of developing the WS-20? Why would are they starting to incorporate WS-10X into the J-20 or testing the TVC on the J-10? According to your reasoning, all this amounts to expensive logistical problems.
> 
> I am not discounting the possibility of a larger Y-20 variant. I just don't believe it is necessary currently and am doubtful it will show up in the short to mid term. For now, the PLAAF's goal is to get as many Y-20s inducted as possible and incorporate the WS-20. And once again, the WS-18 does not fulfill the PLAAF's needs. Having a mediocre low-bypass engine is definitely not ideal or even satisfactory for the Y-20 ... it is more of a necessity due to the lack of a domestic substitute hitherto.


You need to understand WS-20 is not targeted just for Y-20. Its is more important for militaries version of C919 since LEAP engine from US are not allowed to be install onboard C919 if converted to AWACS or tanker. SFA-J the targeted LEAP engine replacement has just started full assemble and ready for testing. It will take another few years before commission for used. WS-20 is near commission and will be ideal for militarized of C919. 

Y-20 is a huge military plane. It has huge capacity for fuel. It need not to compete with courier for every weight ratio vs cost. I doubt the hassle of installing WS-20 can outweigh the maintenance and logistic. WS-18 is not same spec as D30kp2. It has improvement over it.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> You need to understand WS-20 is not targeted just for Y-20. Its is more important for militaries version of C919 since LEAP engine from US are not allowed to be install onboard C919 if converted to AWACS or tanker. SFA-J the targeted LEAP engine replacement has just started full assemble and ready for testing. It will take another few years before commission for used. WS-20 is near commission and will be ideal for militarized of C919.
> 
> Y-20 is a huge military plane. It has huge capacity for fuel. It need not to compete with courier for every weight ratio vs cost. I doubt the hassle of installing WS-20 can outweigh the maintenance and logistic. WS-18 is not same spec as D30kp2. It has improvement over it.


Being a tanker, WS20 is the best option.


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> yes, 4500 KM with 60 tons, (full load) 7800 with 40 tons and with paratroopers 10,000 km but if to make an AWACS and Tanker based on Y-20 you need to better engine of better fuel efficiency to give more time on station
> (air) and range @Beast sir


I doubt Y-20 will be convert to AWACS, with KJ-500 service. Plus C919 is more suitable for AWACS. If Y-20 belly is converted just to hold fuel. It will have tremendous range. High by pass ratio will not be so critical. Do remember low by pass ratio turbofan is still much better than turbojet.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> You need to understand WS-20 is not targeted just for Y-20. Its is more important for militaries version of C919 since LEAP engine from US are not allowed to be install onboard C919 if converted to AWACS or tanker. SFA-J the targeted LEAP engine replacement has just started full assemble and ready for testing. It will take another few years before commission for used. WS-20 is near commission and will be ideal for militarized of C919.
> 
> Y-20 is a huge military plane. It has huge capacity for fuel. It need not to compete with courier for every weight ratio vs cost. I doubt the hassle of installing WS-20 can outweigh the maintenance and logistic. WS-18 is not same spec as D30kp2. It has improvement over it.


Actually it is targeted at the Y-20. The engine you are talking about for the C-919 is the CJ-1000 turbofan, not the WS-20. I don't know why you keep on insisting that the WS-18 is suitable for the Y-20 ... I will reiterate the facts : WS-18 is a *low bypass* engine based off a 40 year old design (not sure how much you can modernize) vs the WS-20 which is a *high bypass engine* based off a modern WS-10 core. Sure the WS-20 is not exclusively for the Y-20 but it's primary target for sure is the latter. If you want an analogy, just think about the H-6K. Why is XAC developing a entirely new class of stealth bombers if the H-6Ks were really satisfactory? Sure the H-6K is leaps and bounds above its predecessor variants but ultimately it is still based on an almost 70 year old design. Same with the WS-20. Just because the WS-18 is more advanced than its Russian counterpart does not mean that it is somehow suitable. But it seems this argument is going in circles ...


wanglaokan said:


> WS20 is very important for China, both militaryor civilian purpose.
> 
> Stop抬杠


Specific fuel consumption, inlet temperature, thrust (TWR) and high bypass ratios are all key advantages the WS-20 possesses over the WS-18. It doesn't matter how advanced of a D-30KP2 derivative one can make ... it is still going to be inferior (for transport planes) to an entirely new generation of turbofans such as the WS-20.


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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> I doubt Y-20 will be convert to AWACS, with KJ-500 service. Plus C919 is more suitable for AWACS. If Y-20 belly is converted just to hold fuel. It will have tremendous range. High by pass ratio will not be so critical. Do remember low by pass ratio turbofan is still much better than turbojet.


 Ok but tanker need a range @Beast sir and high by pass ratio engines has much better range than low by pass one @Beast sir, there are rumors that Y-20 based AWACS is in the future plan of PLAAF @Beast sir

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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> Ok but tanker need a range @Beast sir and high by pass ratio engines has much better range than low by pass one @Beast sir, there are rumors that Y-20 based AWACS is in the future plan of PLAAF @Beast sir


And the Y20 tanker is under development


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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> And the Y20 tanker is under development


Are you asking @wanglaokan sir


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> Ok but tanker need a range @Beast sir and high by pass ratio engines has much better range than low by pass one @Beast sir, there are rumors that Y-20 based AWACS is in the future plan of PLAAF @Beast sir


Sorry, the rumour I heard is C919 will be future AWACS, not Y-20 based AWACS. But yes, Y-20 tanker are underway.



Figaro said:


> Actually it is targeted at the Y-20. The engine you are talking about for the C-919 is the CJ-1000 turbofan, not the WS-20. I don't know why you keep on insisting that the WS-18 is suitable for the Y-20 ... I will reiterate the facts : WS-18 is a *low bypass* engine based off a 40 year old design (not sure how much you can modernize) vs the WS-20 which is a *high bypass engine* based off a modern WS-10 core. Sure the WS-20 is not exclusively for the Y-20 but it's primary target for sure is the latter. If you want an analogy, just think about the H-6K. Why is XAC developing a entirely new class of stealth bombers if the H-6Ks were really satisfactory? Sure the H-6K is leaps and bounds above its predecessor variants but ultimately it is still based on an almost 70 year old design. Same with the WS-20. Just because the WS-18 is more advanced than its Russian counterpart does not mean that it is somehow suitable. But it seems this argument is going in circles ...
> 
> Specific fuel consumption, inlet temperature, thrust (TWR) and high bypass ratios are all key advantages the WS-20 possesses over the WS-18. It doesn't matter how advanced of a D-30KP2 derivative one can make ... it is still going to be inferior (for transport planes) to an entirely new generation of turbofans such as the WS-20.


I don’t doubt the advantage of WS-20 over WS-18 but at what cost vs performance and improvement? There’s always a requirement but if you hit the requirement and at low cost. I don’t see the need to go higher if at the expense of much higher operating cost and hassle.


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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> Sorry, the rumour I heard is C919 will be future AWACS, not Y-20 based AWACS. But yes, Y-20 tanker are underway.


Huitong blogs said that @Beast sir
PLAAF *Y-20A* was demonstrating at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow, wearing a dark blue paint scheme. This advanced 4-engine large transport has been under development since early 2000s at 603 Institute, XAC, CAC and SAC which appears similar to American C-17 and based upon some *IL-76MD* technology (see below). The development was accelerated after the large earthquake in 2008 in Sichuan Province. Assistance was sought from Antonov Design Bureau in 2008. Some specifications: range >7,800m, max speed 700km/h, service ceiling 13,000m, max payload 55t, max TO weight ~200t, depending on the exact type of engine powering the aircraft. Fitted with high-lifting devices along the wing leading and trailing edges plus six pairs of main landing wheels, *Y-20A* is capable of taking off from relatively short runways, making many airfields behind the battlefield accessible. Like C-17, it may also feature supercritical wings which give the aircraft a better fuel economy thus further extends its range. However so far no IFR probe was found onboard the aircraft. Other features include a four-crew glass cockpit with two HUDs and five large MFDs. A small FLIR (Enhanced Vision System/EVS) is installed below the forward windshield to assist taking off and landing under poor weather conditions. A dorsal SATCOM antenna is also seen behind the wings. The aircraft also features an FBW system. Overall *Y-20A* appears fatter and shorter than *Il-76MD*, bearing some resemblance to Japanese C-2 and Ukrainian An-70 transport. This suggests that its cargo bay dimension is a wider and taller, making it more versatile by being able to to carry a variety of oversize load, including ZBD-03 AFVs (at least 3) and one ZTZ99 MBT. In addition a stretched variant is thought to be under development with a larger cargo space. The prototypes and the initial batch are powered by Russian D-30KP-2/WS-18 turbofan, later by the modified WS-10 (WS-20 _Huanghe_?) high-bypass turbofan (as Y-20B?). A static test airframe was seen in December 2016 featuring modified engine pylons. *Y-20A* is also expected to be converted into a tanker (Y-20U?) replacing the obsolete *H-6U*, which might feature a flying boom system for refueling *J-20*.* It will also serve as the platform of the next generation AWACS (KJ-3000?) replacing KJ-2000.* It was also rumored that the aircraft might serve as the testbed for the Chinese airborne laser weapon prototype similar to American YAL-1. The head section of a full-scale metal mock-up of *Y-20A* was constructed by 2008. On August 20, 2009 SAC started to build the rear fuselage of the first prototype. It was reported in April 2010 that the full-scale mock-up was completed in early 2010. In January 2012 it was rumored that the airframe of the first prototype has been constructed, to be fitted with the avionics and engines. Three prototypes (001 - 003) were constructed by 2013, with the 002 prototype being the static test airframe. The first low speed taxiing of prototype 20001 took place on December 21, 2012 at the CFTE airfield in Yanliang. The first flight took place on January 26, 2013. The 001 prototype (S/N 781) later wears a dark blue color scheme after being transferred to CFTE. The third prototype (S/N 783) made its maiden flight on December 16, 2013 and has been undergoing various tests at different locations. Additional prototypes were built and flew in 2015 including 785 and 788. The last prototype (789) flew for the first time on February 6, 2016. It was reported in September 2015that a pulse assembly line has been established at XAC and was ready for production. The R&D of *Y-20A* was reportedly completed by the end of 2015. The first two *Y-20A* (S/N 11051 & 11052)were handed over to PLAAF at XAC on June 15, 2016. They were formally inducted to PLAAF on July 6, 2016. They were expected to be followed by 2 more (11053 & 11054) by the end of 2016. Currently more *Y-20A*s are being constructed at XAC. The latest image (January 2017) indicated at least 6 *Y-20A*s (up to 11056) are in service with PLAAF.





@Beast sir

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## Deino

5 Y-20As at Xi'an-Yanliang - 20180418 ... with what appears to be low-visibility markings??

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## Cybernetics

Y-20 F-100 civil cargo airplane





7m longer than base Y-20 (47m to 54m)
5m wider wingspan than base Y-20 (45m to 50m)

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## Muhammad Omar

Cybernetics said:


> Y-20 F-100 civil cargo airplane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7m longer than base Y-20 (47m to 54m)
> 5m wider wingspan than base Y-20 (45m to 50m)
> 
> View attachment 472478



In the second picture there's another model of the cargo plane behind Y-20 F100 which plane is that?


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## Deino

Muhammad Omar said:


> In the second picture there's another model of the cargo plane behind Y-20 F100 which plane is that?



That is a model of the Y-8F400

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## LKJ86

first airdrop

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/993803465649541120

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## JSCh



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## Beast

JSCh said:


>


Great. Soon will see it airdropped IFV.

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4237499725721496

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 472824
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4237499725721496



A bit better

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA



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## beijingwalker

*Y-20 heavy transport aircraft conducts first airborne, air delivery training*

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## Shahzaz ud din

*China stuns world with heavy military transport plane*









*BEIJING: *China’s Y-20 heavy transport aircraft has undergone its first airborne and air delivery training, said the Chinese air force on Tuesday.

According to Shen Jinke, spokesperson of the air force, it marked a leap in the air force’s strategic delivery and long-distance airborne combat abilities.

*READ MORE: Iran calls for Pakistan China Russia regional alliance against US*
The air force is a strategic service, and its strategic capability should be in line with the constantly expanding national interests so it can carry out diverse military missions, said Shen.

The strategic capability of the air force should be able to extend wherever China’s national interests reach to provide reliable air security assurance for the country’s development, he added.

*READ MORE: CPEC: Pakistan China to focus on strategic Railways project ML-I*
The Y-20, which joined the People’s Liberation Army Air Force in July 2016 and has a maximum takeoff weight of around 200 tonnes, is ideal for transporting cargo and people over long distances in diverse weather conditions. - Xinhua

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## JSCh

*Paratroopers jump out of Y-20 transport aircraft*
Editor：Huang Panyue Time：2018-05-10

Paratroopers assigned to the airborne troops under the PLA Air Force conduct static-line jumps out of a Y-20 transport aircraft successively during a parachute training exercise in central China's Henan Province on May 8, 2018. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Liu Bingbing)












​More -> Paratroopers jump out of Y-20 transport aircraft - China Military
​

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## Deino



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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Below is the so called civilian version of Y20
which is 7 meters longer than military version and with a range of 8000 Kms.

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## Deino

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> Below is the so called civilian version of Y20
> which is 7 meters longer than military version and with a range of 8000 Kms.




Just look here: 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-20...news-discussions.231628/page-74#post-10474363

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## beijingwalker



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## cirr

28/04/2018 Y20s etc.

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## LKJ86



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## cirr

Not necessarily Y-20 

https://m.weibo.cn/status/4250048068086864?

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Not necessarily Y-20
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/status/4250048068086864?



Intersting... but ineeed different to a Y-20. Mabe related to the Y-30? ... or a theme park model?


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Intersting... but ineeed different to a Y-20. Mabe related to the Y-30? ... or a theme park model?
> 
> View attachment 479854



Cosidering that the development of the WJ-10 is reportedly close to completion......

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4250112039337048

It has finished the static test.

A better video: https://m.weibo.cn/5532204093/4250118419055426

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## LKJ86

Someone says that it is Y-20.





https://m.weibo.cn/1971538745/4250136681240238

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1971538745/4250147527041216

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## LKJ86

It is Y-20.

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## LKJ86



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## cirr

601's stealth transport platform

http://news.cctv.com/2018/07/03/VIDEYopJDGGPTPaOl3UqMg5Q180703.shtml

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## ILC

If the stealth transport platform project exist, I think it could be pretty interesting project, especially it would be really helpful to supply SCS islands.

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## cirr

12.06.2018 satellite image

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## JSCh

From AVIC article commemorating the 2nd anniversary of Y-20 induction into PLAAF.

















​more -> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/RwnL8Jmaz7uQdQEMkKvpCA

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## Beast

The important question is how many Y-20 already in service? A dozen?


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## LKJ86



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## samsara

Beast said:


> The important question is how many Y-20 already in service? A dozen?


I don't think it's a figure that PLAAF would like to divulge. Understand it's a question of every party too, incl the external ones, curious how strong that strategic airlift force in operation  so, don't ask, it's a futile question that nobody here or else knows the factual figure. All are speculation, incl following Henri's figure. 

———————

*Y-20 celebrates two years in the Chinese Air Force (09 July)*

Time passes and it has been two years since the Y-20 military transport plane joined the ranks of the Chinese Air Force. The first two aircraft, registered respectively 11051 and 11052, were delivered by *Xi'an Aircraft Industrial Corporation (XAC)* to PLAAF's 4th Division on June 15, 2016, before being formally integrated into the same unit three weeks later on the 6th. July.

And since then, the Y-20 has continued its merry way. After making its first public appearance in November 2016, at the 2016 Zhuhai Air Show where a unit was sent on the spot and gave some flying demonstrations and a static ground exposure, the plane went regularly to the meeting of enthusiasts in China during the open days of the Chinese Air Force.

It was then in July 2017 that the Y-20 parade for the first time with the other Chinese air forces during the gigantic military parade to celebrate the 90th anniversary of the Chinese People's Army. In the meantime, new aircraft have entered active service and some have begun to participate in the various exercises, including that for supplying Tibet on June 20, 2017 .

The pilots interviewed in the middle of last year have confirmed a rise in training in flight, while ground personnel of the air force begin to be able to perform part of the maintenance operations independently, without be assisted by the support teams of the manufacturer XAC.

But it was not until almost two years later, at the beginning of May this year, to see the Y-20 really in "operational mission". According to the Chinese Army's publication, at least two Y-20s, numbered 11053 and 11057 respectively, participated in an airborne exercise with the Chinese Air Force parachute forces that took place in central China, more than 1,000 km from the Qionglai base where the former are stationed.

The two military transport planes first carried out a first tour for parachute dropping, before parachuting the pallets of equipment.

*At the developmental level, there is every reason to believe that at least three variants of Y-20 are currently under study.* The first is a *civilian cargo version* which is extended by 7 meters, capable of carrying up to 18 LD6 containers (407 × 153 × 163 cm) of 3,175 kg each or 10 LD9 containers (317.5 × 223.5 × 162.6 cm) of 6,000 kg, with a maximum range of 8,000 km.

Then comes the *tanker version* - an amplifier of forces that the Chinese army has been in dire need for a few years now - as well as an *airborne space rocket carrier*. If we already have some specific elements on the Y-20 civil cargo, it is unfortunately not yet the case for these last two variants although their existences are more or less confirmed.

Note that the latest satellite images dated April 29 and June 12 show that *Xi'an would be increasing the production rate of the Y-20.* According to our analysis conducted in 2016, based on the delivery rate of the Russian D-30KP-2 engines that the Chinese aircraft has been fueling so far, *the manufacturer XAC would have enough to produce 40 units of Y-20 aircraft by 2020 at the rate of nine units per year.*

*Such a fleet could be able to project an entire mechanized division within a radius of 4,500 km from China in five days, with one tour per day and per aircraft, or in three days if they double the number of sorties per day.*

To be continued.

Henri Kenhmann (East Pendulum)

http://www.eastpendulum.com/le-y-20-fete-ses-deux-ans-dans-larmee-de-lair-chinoise

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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 485533


New engine tested? Wow!


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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> New engine tested? Wow!


Perhaps the WS-20? Y-20 designer personally confirmed last year that the WS-20 will be incorporated in the latter half of 2018 or the beginning of 2019.


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Perhaps the WS-20? Y-20 designer personally confirmed last year that the WS-20 will be incorporated in the latter half of 2018 or the beginning of 2019.




Maybe ... but from that single blurred image hard to tell sknce it does not look substantially wider.


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## Beast

Upgraded WS-18G.


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> And what's the evidence for this?


WS-20 is a fat engine.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> WS-20 is a fat engine.




I think he meant what's the evidence for an improved WS-18G? So far we don't even have confirmation that the regular WS-18 is operational.

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## lcloo

Inside Y20 transport plane.

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## Beast

I bet a PLZ-05 SPH can even fits in directly without any dismantle.


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## Deino



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1022495987808460800


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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1935317321/4266327387072637

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 489770
> View attachment 489771
> View attachment 489772
> View attachment 489773



So that was the full mock up from 2009!? Nice.

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## JSCh

《国家记忆》 20180803 《大国鲲鹏》系列 第五集 列装军队 | CCTV中文国际

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## cirr

11/08/2018





12/06/2018

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## LKJ86

07

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## Deino

Via by78/SDF



> *A photo of AVIC's new chief (right)presenting a model Y-20 – equipped with WS20 engines – to the former chief executive of Hong Kong. Some Chinese military fans hope that this marks the imminent arrival of WS20-equipped Y-20s. They point out that the arrival of the Type-056 frigate was foreshadowed by a photothat showed a model of the frigate being presented to a Hong Kong official.*

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Via by78/SDF
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 496691


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## LKJ86

2017

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 496770




Again, PLAESE be so kind and honest and give at least a translated summary. It is an English forum as by the rules of the owener. So please.


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Again, PLAESE be so kind and honest and give at least a translated summary. It is an English forum as by the rules of the owener. So please.


The model was found several years ago in AVIC. The engines of the model are removable. They can be D30 or the ones what you discover in the pic.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 498027



What's so special about this image? ... any info on the location?

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## LKJ86



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## XaviorXX

Deino said:


> What's so special about this image? ... any info on the location?


Maybe it’s an intuitive size comparison between Y20 and Y8

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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/RH0JgR7frfIUCUr6oEYUaQ

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## cirr

??

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## Deino

cirr said:


> ??
> 
> View attachment 501888



Looks very much like this one from January 2014 albeit much clearer.


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## LKJ86



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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 503697
> View attachment 503698
> View attachment 503699
> View attachment 503700
> View attachment 503701
> View attachment 503702
> View attachment 503703
> View attachment 503704
> View attachment 503705
> View attachment 503706
> View attachment 503707
> View attachment 503708


This plane is really huge.


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## LKJ86



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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504225
> View attachment 504226
> View attachment 504227
> View attachment 504228


Estimate how many Y-20 already in service?


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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> Estimate how many Y-20 already in service?


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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504239


So we will see a fleet of Y-20 fly pass Tianamen square next year....

A very good video on development of Y-20.

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## JSCh

From weibo. Someone suggested this could be some sort of rain spray test?

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## LKJ86

022???

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504914
> 
> 
> 022???




To admit I won't be surprised !


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## Daniel808

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504914
> 
> 
> 022???





Deino said:


> To admit I won't be surprised !



So this confirmation mean that China already produced at least 22 units of Y-20 Strategic Airlifter until now?


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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> So this confirmation mean that China already produced at least 22 units of Y-20 Strategic Airlifter until now?



If it IS a confirmation ... that's the point to debate.

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## samsara

Perhaps a safer line of statement could be “China has been producing 20 units” of this transport aircraft so far, giving out few units as the margin of tolerance.

But a more interesting question for me, for this kind of large transport plane, how large the fleet China intend to go in the "foreseeable future" eventually? Let say by 2025 or 2030.

100? 200? 300? Or else? With or without those Y-20 aircraft designated for OTHER functions (not as the pure transport aircraft). But if covering ALL kinds of functions, a number of few hundreds in the next decade or two may be not too far beyond the reach. 

Anyone has thought on this matter? Even the rough or very rough ideas, call it a kind of intelligent guesstimate...


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## Beast

samsara said:


> Perhaps a safer line of statement could be “China has been producing 20 units” of this transport aircraft so far, giving out few units as the margin of tolerance.
> 
> But a more interesting question for me, for this kind of large transport plane, how large the fleet China intend to go in the "foreseeable future" eventually? Let say by 2025 or 2030.
> 
> 100? 200? 300? Or else? With or without those Y-20 aircraft designated for OTHER functions (not as the pure transport aircraft). But if covering ALL kinds of functions, a number of few hundreds in the next decade or two may be not too far beyond the reach.
> 
> Anyone has thought on this matter? Even the rough or very rough ideas, call it a kind of intelligent guesstimate...


Even the number not in hundreds but a few dozens like 48 of these Y-20 is enough to give PLAAF a global transport capabilities that rank top 3 in the world. A division can be lifted rapidly. A division is enough for a rapid reaction forces in modern warfare.

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## lcloo

IMO, enough number of Y20 to air lift 3 or 4 brigades of armoured vehicles, personnel and logistics is the minimum requirement, especially for speedy delivery of war cargo to captured airport/ air field across the straits. So, about 100 to 150 would be a good guess.

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## LKJ86

September 29, 2018

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## aziqbal

Engine install should be done at final assembly

Why the break in manufacturing procedure ?

Only 2 have engines 5 don’t

Not a good sign


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## Malik Alashter

aziqbal said:


> Engine install should be done at final assembly
> 
> Why the break in manufacturing procedure ?
> 
> Only 2 have engines 5 don’t
> 
> Not a good sign


Because they've no money to buy engines that's why


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## samsara

Why trash talk is seen here??? Please do it else where!


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## Figaro

Malik Alashter said:


> Because they've no money to buy engines that's why


Are you high?


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## Malik Alashter

samsara said:


> Why trash talk is seen here??? Please do it else where!


I was sarcastic



Figaro said:


> Are you high?


I was sarcastic guys every one knows that China is second to the US

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## LKJ86

The air-to-air refuelling variant of Y-20

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## cirr

Pics of Y-20 + WS-20s

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Pics of Y-20 + WS-20s



When, where ??? ... so PLEASE !!!!!


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## LKJ86

cirr said:


> Pics of Y-20 + WS-20s

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 508793



However IMO they look too slim.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> However IMO they look too slim.


I think they maybe WS-18G instead of WS-20.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 510816




Hmmm


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## samsara

lcloo said:


> IMO, enough number of Y20 to air lift 3 or 4 brigades of armoured vehicles, personnel and logistics is the minimum requirement, especially for speedy delivery of war cargo to captured airport/ air field across the straits. So, about 100 to 150 would be a good guess.


I just stumbled across some info about the number of units needed for the Y-20. Whether such info is credible or not, I will let each have his own judgement.

Excerpt from the *Jane’s Defence Weekly
07 June 2016 *as relayed by the:
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....-more-than-1000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft/

“During a 1-7 June (2016) technology innovation exhibition in Beijing, an official from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) told the People’s Daily newspaper that China required “more than 1,000” Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft and that the country also plans to build transport aircraft comparable in size to that of the Antonov An-225 Mriya. “More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed,” Zhu Qian, head of AVIC’s Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.”


Btw, here's a cool clip on the Y-20 landing approach posted by Dafeng Cao on 10:10 am - 01 Nov 2018:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1057832126589165568

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## lcloo

samsara said:


> I just stumbled across some info about the number of units needed for the Y-20. Whether such info is credible or not, I will let each have his own judgement.
> 
> Excerpt from the *Jane’s Defence Weekly
> 07 June 2016 *as relayed by the:
> https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....-more-than-1000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft/
> 
> “During a 1-7 June (2016) technology innovation exhibition in Beijing, an official from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) told the People’s Daily newspaper that China required “more than 1,000” Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft and that the country also plans to build transport aircraft comparable in size to that of the Antonov An-225 Mriya. “More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed,” Zhu Qian, head of AVIC’s Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.”
> 
> 
> Btw, here's a cool clip on the Y-20 landing approach posted by Dafeng Cao on 10:10 am - 01 Nov 2018:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1057832126589165568





samsara said:


> I just stumbled across some info about the number of units needed for the Y-20. Whether such info is credible or not, I will let each have his own judgement.
> 
> Excerpt from the *Jane’s Defence Weekly
> 07 June 2016 *as relayed by the:
> https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....-more-than-1000-xian-y-20-transport-aircraft/
> 
> “During a 1-7 June (2016) technology innovation exhibition in Beijing, an official from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) told the People’s Daily newspaper that China required “more than 1,000” Xian Aircraft Corporation (XAC) Y-20 heavy strategic transport aircraft and that the country also plans to build transport aircraft comparable in size to that of the Antonov An-225 Mriya. “More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed,” Zhu Qian, head of AVIC’s Large Aircraft Development Office, told reporters, referring to the 200-tonne, 50- to 60-tonne cargo capacity, four turbofan-powered transport aircraft that first flew in January 2013.”
> 
> 
> Btw, here's a cool clip on the Y-20 landing approach posted by Dafeng Cao on 10:10 am - 01 Nov 2018:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1057832126589165568



I think the "More than 1,000 Y20s will be needed" is not a complete statement. To have 1,000 Y20 in any one time would mean a capital expenditure of 1,000 aircraft X ?? millions dollars.

We don't have the unit cost as yet, but using C-17's unit costs of US$218 million (2007 price) as a reference, and give an assumed unit price of US$120 million each for Y20, 1,000 Y20 would cost US$120,000 millions or US$ 120 billions. I don't think China is ready to put forward such a huge budget just for Y20 alone, even for a 2X Five years planning period.

So, the most probable message is 1,000 Y20s will be produced over the production life of 30 to 50 years. Which will be Y20A, Y20B, Y20C/D/E/F/G and so on. During this 30-50 years period, earlier batches of Y20 will be retired, and replace by later versions. (Just as H6K bombers is being produce to replace earlier H6s.)

Production of C-130, C-17 and IL-76 as benchmark:-
C-130 Hercules from 1954 to present, total production over 2,500 units
C-17 Globemaster III from 1991 to 2015, total production 279 units.
IL-76 from 1971 to present, total production 960 units.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 507878
> 
> The air-to-air refuelling variant of Y-20

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## Beast



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

What is the status of the WS-20 engine currently? Why has it not been fitting into the Y-20 yet?


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> What is the status of the WS-20 engine currently? Why has it not been fitting into the Y-20 yet?


Cos as I have mention earlier, it's not necessary. WS-18/WS-18G are enough to fulfil PLAAF requirement. The current engine fitted on Y-20 is not D30kp2. WS-20 maybe fitted on Y-20 enlarged version.


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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> Cos as I have mention earlier, it's not necessary. WS-18/WS-18G are enough to fulfil PLAAF requirement. The current engine fitted on Y-20 is not D30kp2. WS-20 maybe fitted on Y-20 enlarged version.


Is there any future plan to build a enlarged version of Y-20 @Beast sir


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> Is there any future plan to build a enlarged version of Y-20 @Beast sir


Yes.. Models are show but priority is given to Y-20 tanker first. WS-20 maybe first used on militarise C919 converted as AWACS. So it will be some time before we see WS-20 used on Y-20.

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## LKJ86



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## cirr

Y-20 tanker?

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## Foxtrot Delta

i like this aircraft for many years now. i hope they make awacks and refuler version of it too. and PAF should get them.


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## LKJ86




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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 520267



Nice ... however the one Y-20U at XAC so far has not the WS-20 installed and also it lacks the tail-mounted IFR-probe. As far as I see there are only two under the wings.


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## Foxtrot Delta

I want to put this aircraft in Flight simulator X , DCS 2.0 and GTA 5 . if someone has a 3d model do let me know otherwise i will purchase it in a months time. I love this bird alot.


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Rumored Y 20 of Aerial Refueling Tanker

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## rashid.sarwar

A question, china built Y-20 very quickly but still struggles to built commercial planes like C919 etc, is commercial plane much more difficult to built??


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

rashid.sarwar said:


> A question, china built Y-20 very quickly but still struggles to built commercial planes like C919 etc, is commercial plane much more difficult to built??


Y 20 is military projects under Central CCP leadership,no need to consider costs at the first place and no need to wait foreign engines!

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## XaviorXX

rashid.sarwar said:


> A question, china built Y-20 very quickly but still struggles to built commercial planes like C919 etc, is commercial plane much more difficult to built??


C919 needs to be certified by FAA or EASA to prove it is safe enough, that will take a long time. It is designed and produced by COMAC and it involves a more complex supplier system.

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## Beast

Actually, Y-20 is a much more complex and difficult project. A military grade 200tons transport plane need to land on unprepared air strap. The amount of sand , dust places great demand on the robustness. Plus advance avionics to allow accurate airdrop of equipment day and night... plus Intergration of many military grade equipment like chaff or ECM. All these are not require for commercial aircraft.

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## LKJ86

Y-20 with 4 WS-20???
https://m.weibo.cn/1905094711/4308090176736353

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## cirr

LKJ86 said:


> Y-20 with 4 WS-20???
> https://m.weibo.cn/1905094711/4308090176736353



11/09/2018 Y-20A？

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## JSCh



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## Deino

cirr said:


> 11/09/2018 Y-20A？



If indeed WS-20 powered, then it is the Y-20B since the current model is already the Y-20A.


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## Deino

Now I think it is indeed only a standard Y-20A with all four D-30s under maintenance and their service panels opened. (via "by78"/SDF)


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## Akasa

JSCh said:


>



The date seems to be September 21, 2010?


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## JSCh

Akasa said:


> The date seems to be September 21, 2010?


Correct.

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## LKJ86



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## 艹艹艹



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## Deino

long_ said:


> View attachment 520851




Please give a translation


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## XaviorXX

Deino said:


> Please give a translation


The development of WS20 is all finished. All verification experiments have been completed and will be equipped on Yu20 next year and no more test needed. . The development process of WS20 is extremely smooth.

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## 艹艹艹



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## Beast

long_ said:


> View attachment 521150


Testing out air refuelling with J-20.

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## samsara

XaviorXX said:


> The development of WS20 is all finished. All verification experiments have been completed and will be equipped on Yu20 next year and no more test needed. . The development process of WS20 is extremely smooth.


Great news then if so. Some foreign observers ever take fun, utter the playful words of China's reliance on Russian-made or -designed engines. They may have to possibly look for other groove to continue the habits.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066006521304281088

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## Beast

samsara said:


> Great news then if so. Some foreign observers ever take fun, utter the playful words of China's reliance on Russian-made or -designed engines. They may have to possibly look for other groove to continue the habits.


No, the engine on Y-20 is not Russia but upgraded D30KP2 domestic engine called WS-18. Now a more powerful one designate WS-18G is debutinng. WS-20 will not be installed on Y-20 that soon and not so critical. WS-20 cannot replace WS-18 for H-6K and future H-20 bomber may continue to used more advance WS-18G.

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Deino said:


> Please give a translation


WS 20 is going great with its tests,may be the most faults free engines ever developped by CHINA and is about to be put into service very soon.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> No, the engine on Y-20 is not Russia but upgraded D30KP2 domestic engine called WS-18. Now a more powerful one designate WS-18G is debutinng. WS-20 will not be installed on Y-20 that soon and not so critical. WS-20 cannot replace WS-18 for H-6K and future H-20 bomber may continue to used more advance WS-18G.



Pardon to ask again, but that again contradicts what so many others say and what is assumed for granted by most??

Do you have any source that states the current ones already use WS-18? ... and why do you think the WS-20 will not be installed?

Thanks in advance.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Pardon to ask again, but that again contradicts what so many others say and what is assumed for granted by most??
> 
> Do you have any source that states the current ones already use WS-18? ... and why do you think the WS-20 will not be installed?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Do you have source for current Y-20 uses Russia D30KP2? Not some hearsay article but official by PLAAF. WS-20 will used in later Y-20 enlarged version and C919 AEW/AWACS militarise version. Currently, PLAAF want to streamline and simplify logistic of engine maintenance by using one type of engine(WS-18) for H-6K and Y-20... WS-18 power is enough for current need of PLAAF requirement.

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## JSCh

*China develops Y-20 variants to perform aerial refueling missions: military insider*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2018/11/26 16:43:39
*
China develops Y-20 variants: expert
*




A Y-20 transport aircraft taxis in Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan Province on June 16, 2016. Photo: VCG​
China is modifying its domestically made strategic transport aircraft Y-20 to take on new missions like aerial refueling, a military insider said.

A tanker variant for the Y-20 is now under development, the expert who is familiar with the matter, told the Global Times on Sunday on the condition of anonymity.

There were a series of reports over the past week, which claimed to have found a prototype for an aerial refueling version of the Y-20 in a commercial satellite photo in Yanliang Airport in Xi'an, capital of Northwest China's Shaanxi Province.

China is in urgent need of an aerial refueling tanker that has a larger fuel capacity than the HU-6, a tanker developed from the H-6 bomber, for its air force to become a strategic one, said the expert, noting that aerial refueling enables a fighter jet to fly much farther without landing and reach more distant targets.

The J-20, China's most advanced stealth fighter jet, is able to receive aerial refueling, China Central Television (CCTV) reported earlier this month.

Although China also operates a few Russian II-78 tankers, which are much larger than the HU-6, Russia was reluctant to sell more at a reasonable price, leading China to decide to develop its own large tanker, the expert said.

China's Y-20, a domestically made 200 ton-class large multi-purpose transport aircraft, is of similar size to the Russian Il-76 transport aircraft, on which the Il-78 is based, he said.

The aircraft began services in the People's Liberation Army Air Force in 2016, the Xinhua News Agency reported.

The fact that the Y-20 is domestically built means that Chinese developers can make alterations relatively easy and makes it a platform to develop more variants, the expert said.

China is experienced in making variants from transport aircraft in the past, reports said.

China modified the Y-9 transport aircraft into an early warning plane, patrol aircraft and anti-submarine aircraft, according to a CCTV report on Saturday.

The expert noted that it is also possible that China could make more Y-20 variants, noting that an early warning aircraft might be the most feasible one given the Y-20's size and endurance.

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## Beast

JSCh said:


> *China develops Y-20 variants to perform aerial refueling missions: military insider*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2018/11/26 16:43:39
> *
> China develops Y-20 variants: expert
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Y-20 transport aircraft taxis in Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan Province on June 16, 2016. Photo: VCG​
> China is modifying its domestically made strategic transport aircraft Y-20 to take on new missions like aerial refueling, a military insider said.
> 
> A tanker variant for the Y-20 is now under development, the expert who is familiar with the matter, told the Global Times on Sunday on the condition of anonymity.
> 
> There were a series of reports over the past week, which claimed to have found a prototype for an aerial refueling version of the Y-20 in a commercial satellite photo in Yanliang Airport in Xi'an, capital of Northwest China's Shaanxi Province.
> 
> China is in urgent need of an aerial refueling tanker that has a larger fuel capacity than the HU-6, a tanker developed from the H-6 bomber, for its air force to become a strategic one, said the expert, noting that aerial refueling enables a fighter jet to fly much farther without landing and reach more distant targets.
> 
> The J-20, China's most advanced stealth fighter jet, is able to receive aerial refueling, China Central Television (CCTV) reported earlier this month.
> 
> Although China also operates a few Russian II-78 tankers, which are much larger than the HU-6, Russia was reluctant to sell more at a reasonable price, leading China to decide to develop its own large tanker, the expert said.
> 
> China's Y-20, a domestically made 200 ton-class large multi-purpose transport aircraft, is of similar size to the Russian Il-76 transport aircraft, on which the Il-78 is based, he said.
> 
> The aircraft began services in the People's Liberation Army Air Force in 2016, the Xinhua News Agency reported.
> 
> The fact that the Y-20 is domestically built means that Chinese developers can make alterations relatively easy and makes it a platform to develop more variants, the expert said.
> 
> China is experienced in making variants from transport aircraft in the past, reports said.
> 
> China modified the Y-9 transport aircraft into an early warning plane, patrol aircraft and anti-submarine aircraft, according to a CCTV report on Saturday.
> 
> The expert noted that it is also possible that China could make more Y-20 variants, noting that an early warning aircraft might be the most feasible one given the Y-20's size and endurance.



I am thinking why China dont make a tanker variant of Y-9? Sure its not as big and fast as Y-20 but the fuel capacity is still much better than H-6U tanker. And this can fill in the gaps of PLAAF lack of refuelling tanker. Plus, I am sure they are customer looking for a cheaper variant of tanker which Y-9 may fits the bill for its export. If USAF can turn KC-130 into tanker. Why not PLAAF?

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Akasa

According to respectable rumors, the Y-20 tanker performed its maiden flight today.


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## LKJ86



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## cirr

“Y-20U“ 
















PSed

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## Beast

cirr said:


> “Y-20U“
> 
> View attachment 524810
> 
> 
> View attachment 524811
> 
> 
> View attachment 524812
> 
> 
> PSed


The real prototype is running in yellow primer.


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## LKJ86



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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Y 20 oil refueling

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## Akasa

Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA said:


> Y 20 oil refueling



Photoshopped.


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## Deino

What do they say??

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1916785-1-1.html

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## nang2

Deino said:


> What do they say??
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1916785-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 525940


Maiden flight, 12/05/2018.

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> What do they say??
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1916785-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 525940



Cartoon shows two Y-20Us, though, perhaps suggesting that two prototypes have been built?


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> What do they say??
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1916785-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 525940


It said "Kun Peng, Add Oil".

Kun Peng is the name of Y20. While Add Oil has double meaning here, one is related to Y20 being a fuel tanker. (Oil in Chinese also means Fuel). A different meaning, also related to development of Y20 fuel tanker is to give encouragement to someone who is in the act of performing some thing. Here it refer to Y20 tanker's development progress.

*Add oil: Encouraging Chinese phrase enters English dictionary*
_"Jia you" is a Mandarin Chinese expression used in cheers at sporting events and rallies or to encourage someone. In Cantonese, it's "ga yau"._

_Now the English translation - "add oil" - has been recognised by the Oxford English Dictionary._

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## Deino

Most interesting theory found: via Huitong/jetfight2000 
https://www.weibo.com/u/5596911390?refer_flag=1001030101_&is_hot=1





> 浅谈Y-20的生产序列号。
> 
> 根据@浩汉防务-特仑苏 提供的几张有限的图片资料可以推断出，Y-20的生产序列号为20XXX，它的位置在垂尾根部，其中XXX为该架飞机的生产编号。目前已知的Y-20代号与对应的生产序列号如下：
> 
> 781---20001
> 782静力试验机---20002
> 783---20003
> 784---20004
> 785---20005
> 786---20006
> 787---20007
> 788---20008
> 789---20009
> 11051---20010
> 11052---20011
> 11053---20012
> 11055---20013
> 11056---20014
> 11057---20015
> 
> 由此可以看出：
> A. 不存在11054。看来空军依然比较迷信，而且机组人员越多，禁忌也就越多。
> B. 由于生产序列号中没有批次号，因此研判Y-20各型号最终的产量为999！(又发现一惊天巨密！欧耶！




translated:



> *Talking about the production serial number of Y-20.*
> 
> According to several limited pictures provided by @浩汉防务-特伦苏, it can be inferred that the production serial number of Y-20 is 20XXX, and its position is at the root of the vertical tail, where XXX is the production number of the aircraft. The currently known Y-20 code and corresponding production serial number are as follows:
> 781---20001
> 782 static testing machine---20002
> 783---20003
> 784---20004
> 785---20005
> 786---20006
> 787---20007
> 788---20008
> 789---20009
> 11051---20010
> 11052---20011
> 11053---20012
> 11055---20013
> 11056---20014
> 11057---20015
> 
> This shows that:
> A. There is no 11054. It seems that the Air Force is still superstitious, and the more crew members, the more taboos.
> B. Since there is no batch number in the production serial number, the final output of each model of Y-20 is judged to be 999! (And found a shocking secret! Oye!

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 526908
> View attachment 526909
> View attachment 526910



I would like to see the cn-number on the tail


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## Beast

Deino said:


> What do they say??
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1916785-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 525940


I am thinking can the Y-20 tanker be a dual use transport? Myanmar airforce bought the JF-17 and adding refueling capabilities is not a problem but where will they get a tanker? If getting Y-20 is a dedicated tanker seems underused. Its huge carrying capacity will comes in handy for small airforce like Myanmar for transport and tanker used. 

Will a dual used Y-20 be in the pipeline? Like the bulge tanker inside the belly of Y-20 can be removed easily like a big container to allow immediate transform to transport role.

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## Ali_Baba

It is only a matter of time before we see this puppy in PAF service as a transport, refueling tanker and awacs aircraft. excellent progress!

what is the unit cost? any news on costs ?

Can it be adapted to work with western engines, like RR ?


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## ynhnwn

I really dig that black paint job they got going.

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## 艹艹艹

https://weibo.com/tv/v/GECcmfMuW?fid=1034:4296798723108252

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Deino said:


> Most interesting theory found: via Huitong/jetfight2000
> https://www.weibo.com/u/5596911390?refer_flag=1001030101_&is_hot=1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> translated:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 526246
> View attachment 526247


Nice photo

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## Deino



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1077410113961558016

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## UKBengali

Whatever happened to the WS-20 indigenous turbofan?
It has been flying on a testbed since 2014.


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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> Whatever happened to the WS-20 indigenous turbofan?
> It has been flying on a testbed since 2014.


WS-20 will not deploy for Y-20 until the enlarged version. Current WS-18G thrust is enough to satisfy PLAAF need.

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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

UKBengali said:


> Whatever happened to the WS-20 indigenous turbofan?
> It has been flying on a testbed since 2014.


This year ... this year


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## LKJ86

A new one to be handed over to PLAAF

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## LKJ86



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## samsara

*Y-20, The 6th Anniversary*

_The Y-20 program celebrates its 6th Anniversary on Saturday, 26 January 2019. The Chinese military transport aircraft carried out its maiden flight on 26 January 2013. Today *more than twenty of these aircraft have been delivered* from the factory near Xi'an, Shaanxi._

The tweet from Henri Kenhmann, East Pendulum:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088823357905104896

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## Han Patriot

samsara said:


> *Y-20, The 6th Anniversary*
> 
> _The Y-20 program celebrates its 6th Anniversary on Saturday, 26 January 2019. The Chinese military transport aircraft carried out its maiden flight on 26 January 2013. Today *more than twenty of these aircraft have been delivered* from the factory near Xi'an, Shaanxi._
> 
> The tweet from Henri Kenhmann, East Pendulum:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088823357905104896


20th? Wow that's a lot but not enough. If we get the engines rolling...we can churn them out like pancakes.

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## LKJ86



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## lcloo

January 2019 satellite photo.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> January 2019 satellite photo.
> View attachment 535451




Interesting, since four of them are lighter coloured than the other three ... at first I thought these might be the flightline at Xi'an (XAC) including some prototypes but it is indeed at Chengdu-Qionglai.


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## LKJ86



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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## lcloo

Those Y20 that were rolled out earlier in previous months with-out engines now have them all fitted. There will be no less than 13 Y20 (re post #1265) for flight testing or are ready to be delivered to PLAAF.

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## lcloo

Number guessing time:-
a) 7 Y20 in PLAAF service have been sighted in photo
b) Henri K/ East Pendulum said more than 20 Y20 have been delivered
c) 8 prototypes were delivered
d) 13 Y20 sighted in factory in latest satellite photo.

Total aircraft for PLAAF service =>20 (delivered) + 13 (in factory) - 8 (prototypes) = >25 . i.e. at least 25 aircraft will be in service, not counting the eight prototypes.

However, there was a rumour one of the eight prototypes was converted for PLAAF service during 2016 Zhuhai Air Show,
so it is >25 + 1 = no less than 26 Y20 will be in active service in 2nd quarter of 2019.

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## LKJ86

Y-20U





http://www.dser.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1109856&extra=page=1&mobile=2

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> Y-20U
> View attachment 541267
> 
> 
> http://www.dser.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1109856&extra=page=1&mobile=2


For AWACS?


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## Deino

Beast said:


> For AWACS?




AWACS? ... it's the tanker.

PS: Seems as if there are only two IFR stations on the wings and so I slowly get the feeling that it is more a IFR-capable variant of a standard transport similar to the IFR-pod equipped A.400Ms than a true dedicated tanker.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> AWACS? ... it's the tanker.
> 
> PS: Seems as if there are only two IFR stations on the wings and so I slowly get the feeling that it is more a IFR-capable variant of a standard transport similar to the IFR-pod equipped A.400Ms than a true dedicated tanker.


Why is there a big hole on top of center fuselage? To install the radome?


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Why is there a big hole on top of center fuselage? To install the radome?



I don't think it is a hole ... the regular Y-20A has this too, looks like some sort of com antenna or dome.

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## nang2

nobody has posted this? suspected WS20 testing vehicle.


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## Deino

nang2 said:


> nobody has posted this? suspected WS20 testing vehicle.



Interesting but the nacelle looks not wider. more like a standard unpainted one.

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## nang2

Deino said:


> Interesting but the nacelle looks not wider. more like a standard unpainted one.


good point


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## LKJ86



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## lcloo

There will be a new feel on Y20 this year, according to a Y20 senior pilot, also a member of China's people congress.

No details given, so it could be (1) a new engine, or (2) a new variant of Y20.

海峡之声广播电台北京3月4日消息(记者 龚天宁 杨娜)【两会军情观察】作为中国自主研发的新一代大型军用运输机，运-20是名副其实的“大国重器”，也在广大的军迷和网友中具有很高的人气，官方绰号“鲲鹏”，网友们则亲切称之为“胖妞”。*全国人大代表、空军某团飞行大队长冯玮*，就是驾驭“鲲鹏”的人。


从轰-6K飞行员到运-20“管理者”

冯玮曾经是一名优秀的轰炸机飞行员，驾驶轰-6K出色完成了黄岩岛巡航等多项重大演训任务，成为运-20的飞行员后，冯玮感觉最大的不同是新型飞机的优异性能让自己从飞行中“解放”出来，更多去思考作战。

“我觉得首先真的是角色转变，虽然我都叫飞行员，但现在我是一个运-20的管理者。以往飞行员要大量的精力去保持这个飞机状态，现在不用你考虑，计算机在干。这个飞机的先进化程度已经保证了你可以管理它规划它，然后他自己去保持那种飞行的轨迹，那么让你更多的精力来干什么呢?规划你怎么去作战啊!如何隐蔽企图?空投完之后，如何快速返航?飞行员的精力更多地解放在这里。”

* 作为驾驶运-20的第一批飞行员，冯玮和战友们积极探索，取得多项突破，在每次飞行任务中和运-20共同成长，创造了新型大型运输机接装后一周内实现首飞、运输机编队参加阅兵等多个“首次”。*


驾驶运-20巡航 见证祖国美丽与辽阔

因为任务的原因，冯玮驾驶飞机巡航过祖国的东西南北，也见证了祖国的美丽与辽阔，“每个地域都有不同的风景，比如像飞格尔木的时候，戈壁、黄沙，荒凉也未必不是一种美;青海湖，我见过湛蓝的青海湖，也见过全部冻上冰的青海湖，因为你飞的季节不一样;‘桂林山水甲天下’，我多次从桂林飞过，我在空中去看桂林，我能知道哪个地方是阳朔，哪个地方是上川岛，我们在空中看桂林山水，又是不一样的风景。你能感觉到祖国的大好河山和它的辽阔，比如说你要到新疆，飞半天你都没飞出去”，冯玮说，每当这种时候，自豪感和使命感油然而生，“一方面你要有能力有实力去保卫它;另一方面，我们也希望它能建设得更美好。”


运-20只是新起点 期待新装备闪亮登场

作为军队人大代表，冯玮说，要成为一名优秀的飞行员和战斗员，不仅要有优异的军事技能，还要有强大的心理素质。这次全国“两会”，他将提出心理训练的建议，“我希望把心理训练纳入到军事训练与考核这个体系里面去，只有纳入日常的训练，把它放在同等地位，才能让实战化训练更加接近实战，更有战味”。

作为新一代大型军用运输机，运-20的表现，让人们充满期待。冯玮透露，*“今年运-20将给大家带来耳目一新的感觉，一定不会让大家失望。”*

近年来，空军新型装备发展迅速，作为运-20的飞行员，冯玮希望更快更深融入作战体系，自己能成为新型作战力量的“奠基石”。对于未来空军装备发展，他也充满期待，“我愿意坐在电视机前，去看我们新的武器装备不断涌现，看他们闪亮登场，我相信有更多更好的装备，因为我们很好的基础。

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## ILC

Both are likely, however ws-20 should be ready to install.


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## LKJ86



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## lcloo

Y20 assembly plant. Two Y20 near completion, and two more with-out wings. One on transport bogey. So there are at least five Y20 in various stages of production.

Photo from Henry K/ East Pendulum

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## Imran Khan

how many are produced till now and how many enter in service ?

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## lcloo

Imran Khan said:


> how many are produced till now and how many enter in service ?


Estimated not less than 26 are in services or in pre-delivery flight tests (refer to post #1269). If Henry K's photo is recent, another 5 or more are being assembled.

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## Imran Khan

lcloo said:


> Estimated not less than 26 are in services or in pre-delivery flight tests (refer to post #1269). If Henry K's photo is recent, another 5 or more are being assembled.


any idea what is production rate per year?


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## lcloo

Within conservative and optimistic range, 12 to 24 a year is likely, though there is no official figure so far.

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## JSCh

*China's Y-20 large transport plane to spawn several variants: chief designer*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/3/12 16:56:27



Paratroopers assigned to the airborne troops under the PLA Air Force parachute from a Y-20 transport aircraft during a parachute training exercise in central China's Henan Province on May 8, 2018. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn

The chief designer of China's domestically developed large transport plane, the Y-20, confirmed the aircraft could be spawned into several types of variants, with military experts expecting to see the original's doppelganger in 2019.

"The Y-20 can serve as a general platform from which a variety of variants can be derived," Tang Changhong, a Chinese political advisor and chief designer of the Y-20, said at a Thursday press conference featuring Chinese legislators and political advisors in the aviation field, China Aviation News reported Friday.

It is now "playing its role as a [variant-spawning] platform as planned," Tang said, without elaborating on the form or function a Y-20 variant might take.

Tang's remarks came amid reports and predictions made by military experts since 2018 saying that China is developing Y-20 variants, including an aerial tanker and a early warning aircraft.

Feng Wei, a Chinese legislator and Y-20 pilot, said "it will be refreshing to see the Y-20 this year and people won't be disappointed," news portal vos.com.cn reported on March 5.

An anonymous military expert told the Global Times on Tuesday this could mean that one or more Y-20 variants could make their debut this year.

With a takeoff weight of 200 tons, the Y-20 can carry more fuel or equipment than any other domestically made aircraft, and can stay aloft for extended periods, making it a great basic platform for tanker and early warning aircraft, the expert said, noting that other possible variants may include a mobile hospital and an electronic warfare aircraft.

The Y-20 might also replace its current Russian engines with domestically made WS-20 engines in 2019, the expert predicted.

The military aircraft began service in the People's Liberation Army Air Force in 2016, the Xinhua News Agency reported.

"The Y-20 has now entered the formal mass production stage, and intensive regular training with the military is going according to plan," Tang said.

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## cirr

JSCh said:


> *China's Y-20 large transport plane to spawn several variants: chief designer*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/3/12 16:56:27
> 
> 
> 
> Paratroopers assigned to the airborne troops under the PLA Air Force parachute from a Y-20 transport aircraft during a parachute training exercise in central China's Henan Province on May 8, 2018. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn
> 
> The chief designer of China's domestically developed large transport plane, the Y-20, confirmed the aircraft could be spawned into several types of variants, with military experts expecting to see the original's doppelganger in 2019.
> 
> "The Y-20 can serve as a general platform from which a variety of variants can be derived," Tang Changhong, a Chinese political advisor and chief designer of the Y-20, said at a Thursday press conference featuring Chinese legislators and political advisors in the aviation field, China Aviation News reported Friday.
> 
> It is now "playing its role as a [variant-spawning] platform as planned," Tang said, without elaborating on the form or function a Y-20 variant might take.
> 
> Tang's remarks came amid reports and predictions made by military experts since 2018 saying that China is developing Y-20 variants, including an aerial tanker and a early warning aircraft.
> 
> Feng Wei, a Chinese legislator and Y-20 pilot, said "it will be refreshing to see the Y-20 this year and people won't be disappointed," news portal vos.com.cn reported on March 5.
> 
> An anonymous military expert told the Global Times on Tuesday this could mean that one or more Y-20 variants could make their debut this year.
> 
> With a takeoff weight of 200 tons, the Y-20 can carry more fuel or equipment than any other domestically made aircraft, and can stay aloft for extended periods, making it a great basic platform for tanker and early warning aircraft, the expert said, noting that other possible variants may include a mobile hospital and an electronic warfare aircraft.
> 
> The Y-20 might also replace its current Russian engines with domestically made WS-20 engines in 2019, the expert predicted.
> 
> The military aircraft began service in the People's Liberation Army Air Force in 2016, the Xinhua News Agency reported.
> 
> "The Y-20 has now entered the formal mass production stage, and intensive regular training with the military is going according to plan," Tang said.



https://v.qq.com/page/k/g/w/k0849niyzgw.html

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

*Yun 20 is in mass production production line first exposure*
分享到：
70
2019-03-16 20:35:29
https://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/2019_03_16_493836.shtml
央视网“威虎堂”3月16日消息， 近日，全国政协委员，运-20总设计师唐长红在接受央视《东方时空》栏目采访时表示，运-20已正式批量生产，此前，在中国航空工业集团发布的《长风破浪》宣传片中，运-20生产线首次曝光。





Video Link as above

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## LKJ86



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## samsara

lcloo said:


> There will be a new feel on Y20 this year, according to a Y20 senior pilot, also a member of China's people congress.
> 
> No details given, so it could be (1) a new engine, or (2) a new variant of Y20.
> 
> 海峡之声广播电台北京3月4日消息(记者 龚天宁 杨娜)【两会军情观察】作为中国自主研发的新一代大型军用运输机，运-20是名副其实的“大国重器”，也在广大的军迷和网友中具有很高的人气，官方绰号“鲲鹏”，网友们则亲切称之为“胖妞”。*全国人大代表、空军某团飞行大队长冯玮*，就是驾驭“鲲鹏”的人。
> 
> 
> 从轰-6K飞行员到运-20“管理者”
> 
> 冯玮曾经是一名优秀的轰炸机飞行员，驾驶轰-6K出色完成了黄岩岛巡航等多项重大演训任务，成为运-20的飞行员后，冯玮感觉最大的不同是新型飞机的优异性能让自己从飞行中“解放”出来，更多去思考作战。
> 
> “我觉得首先真的是角色转变，虽然我都叫飞行员，但现在我是一个运-20的管理者。以往飞行员要大量的精力去保持这个飞机状态，现在不用你考虑，计算机在干。这个飞机的先进化程度已经保证了你可以管理它规划它，然后他自己去保持那种飞行的轨迹，那么让你更多的精力来干什么呢?规划你怎么去作战啊!如何隐蔽企图?空投完之后，如何快速返航?飞行员的精力更多地解放在这里。”
> 
> * 作为驾驶运-20的第一批飞行员，冯玮和战友们积极探索，取得多项突破，在每次飞行任务中和运-20共同成长，创造了新型大型运输机接装后一周内实现首飞、运输机编队参加阅兵等多个“首次”。*
> 
> 
> 驾驶运-20巡航 见证祖国美丽与辽阔
> 
> 因为任务的原因，冯玮驾驶飞机巡航过祖国的东西南北，也见证了祖国的美丽与辽阔，“每个地域都有不同的风景，比如像飞格尔木的时候，戈壁、黄沙，荒凉也未必不是一种美;青海湖，我见过湛蓝的青海湖，也见过全部冻上冰的青海湖，因为你飞的季节不一样;‘桂林山水甲天下’，我多次从桂林飞过，我在空中去看桂林，我能知道哪个地方是阳朔，哪个地方是上川岛，我们在空中看桂林山水，又是不一样的风景。你能感觉到祖国的大好河山和它的辽阔，比如说你要到新疆，飞半天你都没飞出去”，冯玮说，每当这种时候，自豪感和使命感油然而生，“一方面你要有能力有实力去保卫它;另一方面，我们也希望它能建设得更美好。”
> 
> 
> 运-20只是新起点 期待新装备闪亮登场
> 
> 作为军队人大代表，冯玮说，要成为一名优秀的飞行员和战斗员，不仅要有优异的军事技能，还要有强大的心理素质。这次全国“两会”，他将提出心理训练的建议，“我希望把心理训练纳入到军事训练与考核这个体系里面去，只有纳入日常的训练，把它放在同等地位，才能让实战化训练更加接近实战，更有战味”。
> 
> 作为新一代大型军用运输机，运-20的表现，让人们充满期待。冯玮透露，*“今年运-20将给大家带来耳目一新的感觉，一定不会让大家失望。”*
> 
> 近年来，空军新型装备发展迅速，作为运-20的飞行员，冯玮希望更快更深融入作战体系，自己能成为新型作战力量的“奠基石”。对于未来空军装备发展，他也充满期待，“我愿意坐在电视机前，去看我们新的武器装备不断涌现，看他们闪亮登场，我相信有更多更好的装备，因为我们很好的基础。


OedoSoldier tweeted on 2019-03-21:

_The *Y-20B equipped with WS-20 engine will make its first flight this year*
The current Y-20A engine is WS-18, and the H-6K engine is D-30KP-2._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108772254974914562
In responding to the question of our int'l mod here, Deino: _“What's the source for this part, that the Y-20A's engine is the WS-18?”_

OedoSoldier mentioned his source of info from the “Supreme HQ military forum”: cjdby.net.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Refuting the persistence by some that it's impossible for the Chinese side to use any domestically built engine as an alternative to the Russian-made D-30KP, *Hendrik_2000* from SDF posted following interesting notions, principally he highlighted the substantial mismatch of the known imported D-30KP engines by China vs the guesstimated built number of the big aircraft as the prospective users of those Russian engines:

(with some minor typo corrections by myself)
_“… It is not unusual for Chinese military to undertake 2 military development simultaneously as fall back option. If anything it is the norm we can see from ships type 51 and type 52 Myriad missile program and IFV. The loser in the competition normally will be offered for export. 
China only imported around 150-200 D-30KP from Russian sources. There are 50 H6K that use 2 of them so total usage 100. 
There are around 20 Y20 assuming it used 4 D-30KP. Another 80 is now used. So where are the spares?

And we know both H6K and Y 20A are now produced in large number. So where are all the engine come from? Unless China import more from Russia which we will know because the Russian will tell the world”_


The underlying assumptions are:

- the imported number of D-30KP engines by Chinese will be accurately made known by the Russian side

Challenging the belief by some that China has no viable engines developed domestically at this point of time or even earlier to feed those big aircraft it produces (H-6 series and Y-20).

Conclusion: up to each to formulate his thought 

Or, wait until any further official revelation by the Chinese authoritative side at some point of time in unspecified future.

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## ILC

Actually there are probably close to 90-100 H-6K.

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## Beast

samsara said:


> OedoSoldier tweeted on 2019-03-21:
> 
> _The *Y-20B equipped with WS-20 engine will make its first flight this year*
> The current Y-20A engine is WS-18, and the H-6K engine is D-30KP-2._
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108772254974914562
> In responding to the question of our int'l mod here, Deino: _“What's the source for this part, that the Y-20A's engine is the WS-18?”_
> 
> OedoSoldier mentioned his source of info from the “Supreme HQ military forum”: cjdby.net.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Refuting the persistence by some that it's impossible for the Chinese side to use any domestically built engine as an alternative to the Russian-made D-30KP, *Hendrik_2000* from SDF posted following interesting notions, principally he highlighted the substantial mismatch of the known imported D-30KP engines by China vs the guesstimated built number of the big aircraft as the prospective users of those Russian engines:
> 
> (with some minor typo corrections by myself)
> _“… It is not unusual for Chinese military to undertake 2 military development simultaneously as fall back option. If anything it is the norm we can see from ships type 51 and type 52 Myriad missile program and IFV. The loser in the competition normally will be offered for export.
> China only imported around 150-200 D-30KP from Russian sources. There are 50 H6K that use 2 of them so total usage 100.
> There are around 20 Y20 assuming it used 4 D-30KP. Another 80 is now used. So where are the spares?
> 
> And we know both H6K and Y 20A are now produced in large number. So where are all the engine come from? Unless China import more from Russia which we will know because the Russian will tell the world”_
> 
> 
> The underlying assumptions are:
> 
> - the imported number of D-30KP engines by Chinese will be accurately made known by the Russian side
> 
> Challenging the belief by some that China has no viable engines developed domestically at this point of time or even earlier to feed those big aircraft it produces (H-6 series and Y-20).
> 
> Conclusion: up to each to formulate his thought
> 
> Or, wait until any further official revelation by the Chinese authoritative side at some point of time in unspecified future.



Even more valid of WS-18 exists and equipped Airforce is after Y-20 equipped with WS-20, production of WS-18 will still goes on as WS-20 are not able to fit in H-6K.







WS-20 engine





I do not forsee H-6K bomber will retired in a few years time. With estimate 100 H-6K and few IL-76 serving in PLAAF. WS-18 engine will continued to serve PLAAF for at least another decade.

The need of WS-18 and its existence do not need a genius or pure black and white for confirmation.

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## Deino

samsara said:


> OedoSoldier tweeted on 2019-03-21:
> 
> _The *Y-20B equipped with WS-20 engine will make its first flight this year*
> The current Y-20A engine is WS-18, and the H-6K engine is D-30KP-2._
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108772254974914562
> In responding to the question of our int'l mod here, Deino: _“What's the source for this part, that the Y-20A's engine is the WS-18?”_
> 
> ....




Indeed, and I must apologise to @Beast since he was right and I was wrong.

Sorry

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Indeed, and I must apologise to @Beast since he was right and I was wrong.
> 
> Sorry


There is no need for apology but i believe Y-20 equipped with WS-20 might not happen soon. There is no neccessary need. More likely when militarize of C919 is going to happen then we might see WS-20 equipped the Airforce.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> There is no need for apology but i believe Y-20 equipped with WS-20 might not happen soon. There is no neccessary need. More likely when militarize of C919 is going to happen then we might see WS-20 equipped the Airforce.



No, I need to apologise since I now I know especially in my early days here at the PDF I was always one of the most critical readers of your posts and my role as a moderator especially against you was barely and rarely unbiased.

That does not mean I now fully agree with you on all points, but the way I did was unprofessional.
Therefore I beg your pardon.

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> No, I need to apologise since I now I know especially in my early days here at the PDF I was always one of the most critical readers of your posts and my role as a moderator especially against you was barely and rarely unbiased.
> 
> That does not mean I now fully agree with you on all points, but the way I did was unprofessional.
> Therefore I beg your pardon.


It seems Chinese engine tech is maturing. Y-20s using Chinese engine is a very important milestone.

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## Beast

Han Patriot said:


> It seems Chinese engine tech is maturing. Y-20s using Chinese engine is a very important milestone.


Rumours is that even the engine currently used on J-10 and J-20 are domestic engines.

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## Han Patriot

Beast said:


> Rumours is that even the engine currently used on J-10 and J-20 are domestic engines.


J10 is a known fact I think.


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## cirr

Y-20，WS-20 and N1 Trim 

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j0QFEO9hfqQOYlvw3AzjOg

Excerpts

。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

运20飞机自从配装了大涵道比涡扇发动机后，类似民航飞机的推力管理技术也被写进了设计要求中，唐总听闻N1 Trim具有降噪的效果，指示运20飞机也要有这项技术。张伟的导师高总则提出“我们不但要掌握如何应用这项技术，更要对技术原理吃透，这样才能做到型号飞机设计心中有数”。

。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

有了理论，如何落地到型号研制过程中？凭借着对发动机控制规律扎实的工程经验及飞机机载系统架构的理解，提出了应用于运20飞机拍频噪声抑制技术方案，回答了当时大家关心的风扇转速N1同步范围、同步方法及在自动飞控系统中N1同步功能的控制算法，并使用Simulink工具进行了拍频建模仿真。这项技术虽然来自于民航飞机，但是却特别贴合我院大中型军民用运输机主研单位的定位，不仅适用于大涵道比多发涡扇飞机，也适用于多螺旋桨飞机，对我院在研及未来型号研制意义深远。

。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

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## samsara

cirr said:


> Y-20，WS-20 and N1 Trim
> 
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j0QFEO9hfqQOYlvw3AzjOg
> 
> Excerpts
> 
> 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
> 
> 运20飞机自从配装了大涵道比涡扇发动机后，类似民航飞机的推力管理技术也被写进了设计要求中，唐总听闻N1 Trim具有降噪的效果，指示运20飞机也要有这项技术。张伟的导师高总则提出“我们不但要掌握如何应用这项技术，更要对技术原理吃透，这样才能做到型号飞机设计心中有数”。
> 
> 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
> 
> 有了理论，如何落地到型号研制过程中？凭借着对发动机控制规律扎实的工程经验及飞机机载系统架构的理解，提出了应用于运20飞机拍频噪声抑制技术方案，回答了当时大家关心的风扇转速N1同步范围、同步方法及在自动飞控系统中N1同步功能的控制算法，并使用Simulink工具进行了拍频建模仿真。这项技术虽然来自于民航飞机，但是却特别贴合我院大中型军民用运输机主研单位的定位，不仅适用于大涵道比多发涡扇飞机，也适用于多螺旋桨飞机，对我院在研及未来型号研制意义深远。
> 
> 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。


Please correct it if see material error
。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
Since Y-20 is equipped with high-bypass ratio turbofan engines, the thrust management technology similar to civil aviation aircraft has also been written into the design requirements. Manager Tang heard that N1 Trim has the effect of noise reduction, *instructed* that Y-20 aircraft should also have this technology. [Gao Zongze,] Zhang Wei's mentor, put forward that _*"we should not only master how to apply this technology, but also understand the technical principles thoroughly, so that we can have a good idea of the design of model aircraft"*_.
。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
With the theory, how to land in the process of model development? Based on the solid engineering experience of the engine control law and the understanding of the airborne system architecture, this paper puts forward the technical scheme of beat-frequency noise suppression technology solutions applied to Y-20 aircraft, answers the fan speed N1 synchronization range, synchronization method and the control algorithm of N1 synchronization function in the automatic flight control system concerned at that time, and carries out beat-frequency modeling and simulation using Simulink tool. Although this technology comes from civil aviation aircraft, it especially fits the position of the main research units of large and medium military and civil transport aircraft in our institute. It is not only suitable for large bypass ratio turbofan aircraft, but also suitable for multi-propeller aircraft. It is of far-reaching significance for our institute's research and development of future models.
。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

@cirr - thx, corrected already
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Btw, here's the profile under focus, *Zhang Wei 张伟、*born in September 1985 in Qingyang, Gansu Province, graduated from the Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics. He was sent to Northwestern Polytechnical University and graduated in 2011. In 2016, he pursued a PhD in Aircraft Design (accomplished in 2018).





This man just reminds us again that TODAY the top brains in China no longer need to carry their educations and be trained in the Western universities like the earlier generations of Chinese engineers. China's domestic universities and institutes have the necessary qualities to train the top brains into the diamond quality of engineers!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From OedoSoldier on 29 April, just tersely:

Quoted the same link as above, https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j0QFEO9hfqQOYlvw3AzjOg

*“The WS-20 engines were already mounted on Y-20”*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122621946112376832

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## cirr

samsara said:


> Please correct it if see material error
> 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
> Since Y-20 is equipped with high-bypass ratio turbofan engines, the thrust management technology similar to civil aviation aircraft has also been written into the design requirements. Manager Tang heard that N1 Trim has the effect of noise reduction, *indicating* that Y-20 aircraft should also have this technology. [Gao Zongze,] Zhang Wei's mentor, put forward that "we should not only master how to apply this technology, but also understand the technical principles thoroughly, so that we can have a good idea of the design of model aircraft".
> 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
> With the theory, how to land in the process of model development? Based on the solid engineering experience of the engine control law and the understanding of the airborne system architecture, this paper puts forward the technical scheme of beat-frequency noise suppression technology solutions applied to Y-20 aircraft, answers the fan speed N1 synchronization range, synchronization method and the control algorithm of N1 synchronization function in the automatic flight control system concerned at that time, and carries out beat-frequency modeling and simulation using Simulink tool. Although this technology comes from civil aviation aircraft, it especially fits the position of the main research units of large and medium military and civil transport aircraft in our institute. It is not only suitable for large bypass ratio turbofan aircraft, but also suitable for multi-propeller aircraft. It is of far-reaching significance for our institute's research and development of future models.
> 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Btw, here's the profile under focus, *Zhang Wei 张伟、*born in September 1985 in Qingyang, Gansu Province, graduated from the Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics. He was sent to Northwestern Polytechnical University and graduated in 2011. In 2016, he pursued a PhD in Aircraft Design (accomplished in 2018).
> View attachment 557052
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> From OedoSoldier on 29 April, just tersely:
> 
> Quoted the same link as above, https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j0QFEO9hfqQOYlvw3AzjOg
> 
> *“The WS-20 engines were already mounted on Y-20”*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122621946112376832



Not indicating but instructing......

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## samsara

*taxiya at SDF pointed out the significance of the above article, thus made it clearer. *Based on words, the relationship between the Y-20 and the WS-20 has been made pretty clear. Now the outside world is simply awaiting some visualization support to baptize these written depiction as irrefutable!

Read it here:

Just pass on a post from CJDBY: https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2546833-1-1.html

Which referred to an *AVIC First Academy post about Zhang Wei's work*
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j0QFEO9hfqQOYlvw3AzjOg

_运20飞机自从配装了大涵道比涡扇发动机后，类似民航飞机的推力管理技术也被写进了设计要求中，唐总听闻N1 Trim具有降噪的效果，指示运20飞机也要有这项技术。_

Translation:
_Since mounting of large bypass turbofan engine*,* thrust management technology similar to civilian airliner has been introduced into Y-20's design specification. *Chief Tang (*that is *Tang Changhong*) instructed that Y-20 must have *N1 Trim* after hearing that it has noise reduction effect.

The interesting thing is not the "N1 Trim", but the *LARGE bypass turbofan engine*. In Chinese practice, that can only be anything above 4, *which is WS-20*. The WS-18/DK30 are regarded as “medium bypass.” _

Note: the Weixin account is the *official account* of AVIC First Academy.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 559041




The XAC Y-20's nest at Xi'an-Yanliang  ... can't wait to see the first Y-20B with WS-20 engines this year.


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## Imran Khan

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 559041


13 of them ?

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## Ali_Baba

They are sure building them at some pace now !

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## LKJ86



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## aziqbal

Any new serials recently?


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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Y-20A at Kaifeng

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## JSCh

*Two options for China to turn Y-20 strategic cargo plane into aerial tanker: magazine*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/7/21 17:38:17



China's new-generation military transport aircraft, the Y-20, sits on the tarmac in preparation for the China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition 2016 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Photo: Cui Meng/GT

Chinese military media have offered some suggestions on how to customize the homemade Y-20 cargo plane as the country needs its domestically developed large aerial tanker for a strategic air force. 

Short- and long-term plans are possible for the Chinese Air Force, Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based periodical on the national defense industry, said in an article published in its WeChat public account on Friday.

Since China is in urgent need of a large aerial tanker, it could go with the short-term plan first: installing refueling pods under its wings and by its rear, the article said.

This method, similar to the one used on the Russian Il-78 and European A400M tankers, would make little change to the aircraft's structure, the magazine said, noting that this method has relatively little technical difficulty and could be accomplished relatively faster and at a lower cost.

It also allows the Y-20 to retain its full transport capability, and the aircraft could still act as a cargo plane, the article said.

Eventually, a better option is to get rid of some of the transport capabilities like aerial delivery in favor of an integrated refueling platform within the fuselage similar to the Boeing KC-767. This would be much more complicated and could take longer, but will let the Y-20 carry even more fuel and become a more efficient tanker, the article said.

Developed by the Xi'an Aircraft Industry (Group) Company Ltd under the state-owned Aviation Industry of China, the Y-20 has a takeoff weight of 200 tons.

Tang Changhong, chief designer of the Y-20, said in a March press conference that the aircraft "can serve as a general platform from which a variety of variants can be derived."

Multiple Chinese and foreign reports indicated the development of a tanker version is possibly already under way.

When repurposed for aerial refueling, the Y-20 could carry about 90 tons of fuel, the magazine article said, noting that China's current aerial tanker HU-6 can only carry less than 30 tons.

Having a tanker version of the Y-20 would allow China's fighter jets and bombers to fly much farther than before, making the Chinese Air Force turn into a strategic force from a regional one, an anonymous military expert told the Global Times.

China aims to build a strategic air force by 2020, which will become modern by 2035, and will be world-class by the mid-21st century, the Xinhua News Agency reported in November 2018.

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## obj 705A

why doesnt China make a civilian airliner version of the Y-20?
apparently the C919 uses alot of western technology including from the US, in that case once the C919 starts production Trump could just anounce a technology export ban on the C919 due to "national security" & thus the C919 would be dead on arrival, producing an airplane is a thousand times more complex than producing a smartphone thus after a US ban changing supply chains for the C919 would take a very long time & significantly delay the project.

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## nang2

obj 705A said:


> why doesnt China make a civilian airliner version of the Y-20?
> apparently the C919 uses alot of western technology including from the US, in that case once the C919 starts production Trump could just anounce a technology export ban on the C919 due to "national security" & thus the C919 would be dead on arrival, producing an airplane is a thousand times more complex than producing a smartphone thus after a US ban changing supply chains for the C919 would take a very long time & significantly delay the project.


Why doesn't US make a civilian airline version of C-17?

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## obj 705A

nang2 said:


> Why doesn't US make a civilian airline version of C-17?


because the production of already existing Boeing airliners won't be affected if China anounced a technology export ban on the US, obviously.
while the C919 in comparison would be killed or it's roll out would be delayed for a very long while if the US bans technology export to it.


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## lcloo

obj 705A said:


> why doesnt China make a civilian airliner version of the Y-20?
> apparently the C919 uses alot of western technology including from the US, in that case once the C919 starts production Trump could just anounce a technology export ban on the C919 due to "national security" & thus the C919 would be dead on arrival, producing an airplane is a thousand times more complex than producing a smartphone thus after a US ban changing supply chains for the C919 would take a very long time & significantly delay the project.


Y20 is a totally different aircraft from C919 in design and function. Converting Y20 into a passenger airliners is going to make the operator bankrupt in highly competitive airliners business, due to higher fuel cost per passenger mile.

As for C919, I am sure by now they would have a plan B for getting non-US suppliers. Also if US will to ban parts export for C919, China would respond with ban on Boeing jets. Without China market the negative effect on Boeing is far worst than 737-Max, likely will need US government to bail them out with tax payers' money.

Breaking news: Boeing lost 2.942 billion USD in their latest quarterly report due to 737-Max. Last year at the same period, they made a profit of 2.196 billion USD.

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## vi-va

lcloo said:


> Y20 is a totally different aircraft from C919 in design and function. Converting Y20 into a passenger airliners is going to make the operator bankrupt in highly competitive airliners business, due to higher fuel cost per passenger mile.
> 
> As for C919, I am sure by now they would have a plan B for getting non-US suppliers. Also if US will to ban parts export for C919, China would respond with ban on Boeing jets. Without China market the negative effect on Boeing is far worst than 737-Max, likely will need US government to bail them out with tax payers' money.
> 
> Breaking news: Boeing lost 2.942 billion USD in their latest quarterly report due to 737-Max. Last year at the same period, they made a profit of 2.196 billion USD.



It's confirmed from various sources that China has all home-made C919 version. That will be used for military purpose to replace Y-8&Y-9 I think. 

Y-8&Y-9 technology is old, C919 will surely fight higher and further, better aircraft cabin environment as well. More importantly, all home-made C919 will ensure any foreign parts embargo will hurt foreign partner only.

All home-made C919 will share parts with C919, it will reduce cost a lot for mass production.

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## kuge

viva_zhao said:


> It's confirmed from various sources that China has all home-made C919 version. That will be used for military purpose to replace Y-8&Y-9 I think.
> 
> Y-8&Y-9 technology is old, C919 will surely fight higher and further, better aircraft cabin environment as well. More importantly, all home-made C919 will ensure any foreign parts embargo will hurt foreign partner only.
> 
> All home-made C919 will share parts with C919, it will reduce cost a lot for mass production.


how is the engine coming along?


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## vi-va

kuge said:


> how is the engine coming along?


I don't have reliable info about the engine progress.


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## LKJ86



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## 055_destroyer

kuge said:


> how is the engine coming along?


WS-20 engine.. it's not comparable to leap X but comparable to most CFM-56 used in many airliner until now.

CJ-1000A will be the domestic engine comparable to Leap X but will be few years away from fully operation.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 573019




Interesting is the slight difference in grey!


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## Figaro

055_destroyer said:


> WS-20 engine.. it's not comparable to leap X but comparable to most CFM-56 used in many airliner until now.
> 
> CJ-1000A will be the domestic engine comparable to Leap X but will be few years away from fully operation.


Where is the WS-20??? It is surprising to me that new J-20s and J-10Cs are incorporating the WS-10 but no WS-20 for the Y-20.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Can't wait for the first one with WS-20!

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Can't wait for the first one with WS-20!


So you think the blurred out portion is WS-20?


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> So you think the blurred out portion is WS-20?



No, these are IMO only two more regular Y-20As but anyway I cannot wait to see it.


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> No, these are IMO only two more regular Y-20As but anyway I cannot wait to see it.


But why then are the engines blurred? Interesting ...

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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> No, these are IMO only two more regular Y-20As but anyway I cannot wait to see it.


Why would the engine be censored otherwise? There are plenty of pictures from official sources with the Y-20's engine visible.


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## 055_destroyer

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Why would the engine be censored otherwise? There are plenty of pictures from official sources with the Y-20's engine visible.


Usually only domestic engine will be censor when photo like WZ-9C turboshaft for Z-10 attack helo when engine cap is opened. That mean likely it is domestic engine like WS-18 or WS-20 for Y-20.


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## Figaro

055_destroyer said:


> Usually only domestic engine will be censor when photo like WZ-9C turboshaft for Z-10 attack helo when engine cap is opened. That mean likely it is domestic engine like WS-18 or WS-20 for Y-20.


I don't think it's the WS-18 because from the rumors, WS-18 looks identical to the D-30KP2, which wouldn't need censoring.


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## 055_destroyer

Figaro said:


> I don't think it's the WS-18 because from the rumors, WS-18 looks identical to the D-30KP2, which wouldn't need censoring.


I heard WS-18 has some slight modification and better metallurgy that gives it much higher thrust and lifespan compare to D30KP2. The outside may be identical but I am not sure it will be the case for inside.


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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 576466




13 Y-20As ... that's more than half a regular regiment? ... so when will the second unit be established

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## Deino



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## Ra's al Ghul

we should have these ones.


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## waja2000

Ra's al Ghul said:


> we should have these ones.



No rush for now, wait for Y20 with new engine will be better.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167416187116036096

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业一飞院 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @inSky_1865 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @wanquanfoto from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @Neo双垂尾蓝光 from Weibo

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## Ibn Batouta

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 581090
> 
> Via @Neo双垂尾蓝光 from Weibo


Nice birds ! Very beautiful

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## LKJ86

Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo





Via @DS谁明浪子心 from Weibo





Via @哈库纳玛塔塔_Sit from Weibo





Via @DS南海听风 from Weibo





























Via @空天砺剑 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @goneless from Weibo


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## LKJ86

Y-20

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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## truthseeker2010

Is the engine russian?
How many paratroopers it can take?
Whats the unit cost?


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## Figaro

When are the WS-20 engines going to be incorporated on to the Y-20? It is especially frustrating the Y-20 still relies on the D30KP-2 or WS-18 when the J-20 and J-10Cs are getting WS-10s now.


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## LKJ86

Via @卉sama_ from Weibo

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## Imran Khan

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 584871
> 
> Via @卉sama_ from Weibo


how many total are built sir ?


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## LKJ86

Via @hysplan from Weibo

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## obj 705A

Imran Khan said:


> how many total are built sir ?


well the Chinese wiki says around 40, so that is probably the best guesstimate.

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## LKJ86

Via ChinaPictorial

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> When are the WS-20 engines going to be incorporated on to the Y-20? It is especially frustrating the Y-20 still relies on the D30KP-2 or WS-18 when the J-20 and J-10Cs are getting WS-10s now.


There is nothing wrong with WS-18. It is an engine that satisfy the need for PLAAF strategic need. Given the huge number of H-6K and H-6N putting into service. Maintaining one type of engine is easier and more economical.

China MBT Type99A weights the most 58tons, Y-20 equipped with WS-18 engines are more than enough to handle such payload. WS-20 engine main targeted aircraft is not Y-20 but militarize C919 for MPA or AEW.


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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 585511
> 
> Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo




What's so special with this particular airframe?


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## LKJ86

Via @DS南海听风 from Weibo

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> What's so special with this particular airframe?


the banner said,“加油新时代”。 加油 is equivoque, mean "cheers" or "refuel". So it's Y-20U.

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## Fsjal

If there's a possibility of an aerial-refueling version of Y-20, is there a possibility of an AWACS variant?


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## vi-va

Fsjal said:


> If there's a possibility of an aerial-refueling version of Y-20, is there a possibility of an AWACS variant?


Sure, it a must have.

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## Deino

Fsjal said:


> If there's a possibility of an aerial-refueling version of Y-20, is there a possibility of an AWACS variant?



This one already exist ... we only haven't seen it yet in close up.

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## lcloo

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 585511
> 
> Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> View attachment 585590




Thanks, ... can't wait for a clear image of the whole bird.


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> Thanks, but the question is; is this only that Weibo-user's name or is this indeed the first Y-20U?
> 
> Is there anything written on that poster which solves this issue?


Sorry, it is not confirmed because the word "加油“ (as in the banner) has more than one meaning, the words means "Add Oil", so
(1) we can interpret it as Fuel replenishment, i.e. Refueling,
(2) "Add Oil" is commonly used to encourage others who are in competition events or engaging in difficult tasks like rescue/ disaster relief etc, it is equivalent to "Come on! Keep going!".
_reference: https://says.com/my/news/add-oil-oxford-english-dictionary_

From previous photo circulations and internet discussion on its development over the years, it could very likely be that at this time the Y20U or YU20 aerial refuel tanker has completed its testing and is in final assembly for PLAAF's first to be in service Y20 tanker.

However, bear in mind this cannot be confirmed, so just wait for new evidence.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Sorry, it is not confirmed because the word "加油“ (as in the banner) has more than one meaning, the words means "Add Oil", so
> (1) we can interpret it as Fuel replenishment, i.e. Refueling,
> (2) "Add Oil" is commonly used to encourage others who are in competition events or engaging in difficult tasks like rescue/ disaster relief etc, it is equivalent to "Come on! Keep going!".
> _reference: https://says.com/my/news/add-oil-oxford-english-dictionary_
> 
> From previous photo circulations and internet discussion on its development over the years, it could very likely be that at this time the Y20U or YU20 aerial refuel tanker has completed its testing and is in final assembly for PLAAF's first to be in service Y20 tanker.
> 
> However, bear in mind this cannot be confirmed, so just wait for new evidence.




Thanks a lot and indeed, it must be an older image since the first time a Y-20U was spotted, was in February, however in July there were already two.


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## LKJ86

Via @captain笨小航 from Weibo

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## lcloo

There is a large chance that by the end of the year, we will see more Y20 in PLAAF service than IL-76.

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## LKJ86

Y-20U?




Via @DS木淫系宜腹 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军画报 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Y-20 & IL-76




Via @wanquanfoto from Weibo

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## Broccoli

lol, I was looking at BR discussion and as Chinese get advanced hardware (while India is stagnating) more it seems to burn in BR writers. Look at the messages about Y-20... they are so salty that they use insults when talking about Chinese people.
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/v...d=cb55e97771ff8669032570e06cd1f1d5&start=4000

Is it funny or sad?


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## Haris Ali2140

Broccoli said:


> lol, I was looking at BR discussion and as Chinese get advanced hardware (while India is stagnating) more it seems to burn in BR writers. Look at the messages about Y-20... they are so salty that they use insults when talking about Chinese people.
> https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/v...d=cb55e97771ff8669032570e06cd1f1d5&start=4000
> 
> Is it funny or sad?



Its sad really.
They are comparing safety record of a plane which has 400+ active units with a plane which still isn't inducted in any airforce.

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## obj 705A

Broccoli said:


> lol, I was looking at BR discussion and as Chinese get advanced hardware (while India is stagnating) more it seems to burn in BR writers. Look at the messages about Y-20... they are so salty that they use insults when talking about Chinese people.
> https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/v...d=cb55e97771ff8669032570e06cd1f1d5&start=4000
> 
> Is it funny or sad?


LMAO WTF is that retarded forum! it's as retarded as 4Chan & even more retarded than reddit, it's a giant Indian circlejerk, I read some of their older posts, basicaly they were talking about how inferior Chinese military technology is to the Indian one and that the reason why China builds more weapons is to compensate for that inferiority & also because Chinese people are now going jobless en masse due to the trade war so Beijing employs them in the MIC to prevent a social rebelion, then they go on talking about how feminine & "gay" Chinese men are & because of that the PLA soldiers are weak [mentaly, physicaly as men] & that Chinese women fawn over Indian men, it's these kind of people who still seriously believe in Supa Powa 2020.

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## LKJ86

Via www.top81cn.cn

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 1 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## waja2000

still wating to new engine fly in Y20....


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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## bahadur999

Y-20U at XAC.

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## aziqbal

I would like to know the number ?


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## bahadur999

aziqbal said:


> I would like to know the number ?


Hopefully we will see one in active service soon.


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## Deino

bahadur999 said:


> Y-20U at XAC.
> View attachment 593670




But wasn't this already posted some time ago by @LKJ86 ?


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## Figaro

Why does the Y-20 not have the WS-20 yet? Strange since a couple years ago I heard the WS-20 had the smoothest development out of any Taihang engine. Until they get the WS-20, the Y-20 cannot realize its ultimate potential.


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> Why does the Y-20 not have the WS-20 yet? Strange since a couple years ago I heard the WS-20 had the smoothest development out of any Taihang engine. Until they get the WS-20, the Y-20 cannot realize its ultimate potential.


Y-20 has already realise its potential.. The current engine fitted is not the ordinary D30KP2 engine but Chinese WS-18 clone but upgraded engine with more superior fan blade and higher thrust. The current Y-20 configuration is capable of hauling PLA most heavier MBT of Type99A. Higher payload is not necessary at the moment.

The reason for Y-20 to retain WS-18 are simply logistic point of view and cheaper maintenance since WS-18 engine share the same place of IL-76, H-6K and Y-20.

WS-20 will only introduced once military C919 convert to AWACS , MPA or AEW since the engine for it cannot be imported from US.

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## aziqbal

Beast said:


> Y-20 has already realise its potential.. The current engine fitted is not the ordinary D30KP2 engine but Chinese WS-18 clone but upgraded engine with more superior fan blade and higher thrust. The current Y-20 configuration is capable of hauling PLA most heavier MBT of Type99A. Higher payload is not necessary at the moment.
> 
> The reason for Y-20 to retain WS-18 are simply logistic point of view and cheaper maintenance since WS-18 engine share the same place of IL-76, H-6K and Y-20.
> 
> WS-20 will only introduced once military C919 convert to AWACS , MPA or AEW since the engine for it cannot be imported from US.



then why did China import so many D30KP2, for H6? Surely not


----------



## Beast

aziqbal said:


> then why did China import so many D30KP2, for H6? Surely not


Are you sure China imported many DK30KP2? Where is your proof of many(300 above)?

From what I know China only imported 120 DK30KP2 in the 2012 and no more subsequently. We have almost a hundred new H-6K, H-6N in service plus almost a dozen of Y-20 and not to mention many KJ-2000 and IL-76 in service. A simple maths calculation show it need at least 300-400 engines for now and future.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2015/01/ws-18-new-type-of-aircraft-engine.html#.XfQvsOgzbIU






Photo show the successfully testing of WS-18 engine in the late 2015 and since WS-18 is a clone of DK30KP2 but with more superior metallurgy. It shouldnt take too long for it to cert and enter production service. Notice in 2017- until now, production of Y-20 , H-6K and H-6N have increase significantly, more or less how the engines supply is not a bottleneck as production ramp up to meet the demand.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> Y-20 has already realise its potential.. The current engine fitted is not the ordinary D30KP2 engine but Chinese WS-18 clone but upgraded engine with more superior fan blade and higher thrust. The current Y-20 configuration is capable of hauling PLA most heavier MBT of Type99A. Higher payload is not necessary at the moment.
> 
> The reason for Y-20 to retain WS-18 are simply logistic point of view and cheaper maintenance since WS-18 engine share the same place of IL-76, H-6K and Y-20.
> 
> WS-20 will only introduced once military C919 convert to AWACS , MPA or AEW since the engine for it cannot be imported from US.


The Y-20 needs high bypass turbofan like WS-20


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> The Y-20 needs high bypass turbofan like WS-20


Not in expense of cost and maintenance. WS-18 still consume less fuel compare to turbojet and higher thrust to fulfill current PLAAF needs.

WS-20 maybe install on enlarges version of Y-20 civilian to haul bigger/heavy cargo.






But that might be 5-7 years later date before you see WS-20 install on it.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/1...Based_on_Y_20_Military_Transport#.XfRz1ugzbIU

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208117198264377344

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## lcloo

Latest satellite photo shows 17 dark painted Y20s at the factory.

Happy New Year 2020!

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## LKJ86

Via @DS大彪 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @DS大彪 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Imran Khan

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 599668
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin


still same engines ?

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## LKJ86

Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 599668
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218418109477982208

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## Beast

Imran Khan said:


> still same engines ?


WS-18... Is it enough for our national need. We dont have the need to ferry a 72tons MBT.

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## LKJ86

Via 中国航空报

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 600987
> 
> Via 中国航空报



Winter has come ...

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## lcloo

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 600987
> 
> Via 中国航空报


The hangar looks like the one from the factory.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> Winter has come ...


It's Deep winter indeed  very cold in the northern regions (incl NE & NW). The Songhua River in Heilongjiang is still freezing thoroughly. The annual event of Harbin International Ice and Snow Sculpture Festival, the largest one in the world, is still primed at this very moment. Have nice holiday every one! Festive season ahead.

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## Deino

Not sure if this is an image of a Y-20U tanker or - give the shape of that store - more likely Y-20A carrying a KG800 ECM pod. 

(Image via yangwansan1/https://lt.cjdby.net/forum)

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## Deino

What do think? This image was posted yesterday at the CJDBY-Forum (https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2610446-1-1.html) but I decided not to post it since I'm quite unsure if not again simply the engine's cowlings are open. Anyway, at least the one on top of the right wing looks indeed wider.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226756542474547201

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1226891928790282241

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## lcloo

11059 and 11056 in Wuhan airport today, sending much needed medical supplies. 20042 and another sending PLA medical teams. They are among 11 military transport planes arriving in Wuhan today, which include Y20, IL-76 and Y9.​

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## rAli

Beautiful plane. Thanks for sharing great pics. What are intended numbers that PLAAF wants to induct?


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## Beast

lcloo said:


> 11059 and 11056 in Wuhan airport today, sending much needed medical supplies. 20042 and another sending PLA medical teams. They are among 11 military transport planes arriving in Wuhan today, which include Y20, IL-76 and Y9.​
> View attachment 605388
> 
> 
> View attachment 605382
> View attachment 605383
> View attachment 605384
> View attachment 605385
> View attachment 605386
> View attachment 605387


Finally, they decide to use Y-20 for some real mission.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Finally, they decide to use Y-20 for some real mission.




Indeed ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227792161447399424
... and also including at least four so far not clearly confirmed Y-20As:

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Indeed ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1227792161447399424
> ... and also including at least four so far not clearly confirmed Y-20As:
> 
> View attachment 605415
> View attachment 605416


PLAAF also used all attempt to hide the number of Y-20 in service by not using it for any operation. But this coronavirus forces them to use it as shortage of IL-76.

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## LKJ86

Via @金刚 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @人民画报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @学习军团 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @高达转魔方 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @京局飞行段 from Weibo

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## Beast



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## Beast



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## samsara

视代大型运输机形尺寸对比（1955-2020 & 100吨~600吨）

_*Visual Comparison of shape and size of Large Transport Aircraft*_

Derivative works by @feel的小步舞曲

最大起飞重量
_Maximum Take-off Weight (MTOW)_

最大载重
_Maximum Load










China's Y-20 is the largest transport aircraft still actively in production at present, while other larger transport aircraft from Russia and the United States already had their production lines discontinued many years ago._

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## aziqbal

Y20 looks small 

medium heavy lift not a large heavy lift


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## LKJ86

Y-20 will arrive in Wuhan again.




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229231491663589376

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## JSCh



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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229323492761493505

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## Deino

And here is Y-20A serial number 11151 from the 4th Transport Division,12th Air Regiment at Chengdu/Qionglai.

(Image by CMDSY via Huitong's CMA blog)

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## Deino

Last week, Y-20A serial number 20042 was revealed for the first time as the second one assigned to the 13th Transport Division, now a close up image posted today shows it is the construction number 20026 or the 26th Y-20A built.

(Image via Huitong's CMA blog)

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## Goku

Fascinating to see the progress done by China.
Y20 looks great. Congratulations as a fellow Asian. I wish my country could do the same

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## LKJ86

Via @人民画报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @查理爱飞机 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

*Wuhan Today: Y-20 aircraft deliver aid to Wuhan*

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## LKJ86

Via @长荣君 from Weibo

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## lcloo

20043 spotted.

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## lcloo

AVIC Xi'An reported that they have delivered a new Y20 to PLAAF yesterday (2020-02-21).

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## Daniel808

lcloo said:


> 20043 spotted.
> 
> View attachment 607482



27 



lcloo said:


> AVIC Xi'An reported that they have delivered a new Y20 to PLAAF yesterday (2020-02-21).
> 
> View attachment 607556



So with this new delivery, at least China's Air Force have almost 30 unit of this chubby girl.


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## samsara

A recent news circulated through the social media, that I find interesting enough to share here. The original message is written in Chinese (Traditional). As it mentioned about the air transportation capability, implied to the Y-20 fleet, I just put it here.

日本媒體的評論：
中國借武漢緊急動員體制，向世界展示出幾乎與美國並肩的戰爭動員能力。空運是日本的四倍，鐵路運輸是日本的九十倍，一週建上千病牀的高等級戰爭醫院，人員和物資的快速集中，數千萬人的瞬間移動管制，無一不在是向世界展示了中國已經是一個不可以作為戰爭對手的國家，從而達到了不戰而屈人之兵的目的。
第一次看到日本用這種眼光看待中國，把中國的抗疫等同於大型戰爭的全國總動員！

這個總結很好，發給大家分享。

_{The English translation} 
_
_*Comments by Japanese media:*_

_With the help of Wuhan Emergency Mobilization System, China has demonstrated to the world its ability to mobilize for war almost side by side with the United States. Air transportation is four times the size of the Japanese, and railway transportation is 90 times that of Japan. The high-level war hospitals with thousands of beds are built in around a week. The rapid concentration of personnel and materials, and the instantaneous movement control of tens of millions of people, all of these capabilities show the world that China is a country that other better not engages as a war opponent, so as to achieve the goal of winning without war._

_For the first time, I saw that Japan looked at China in this way, and equated China's anti epidemic campaign with the national mobilization of the whole country in a large-scale war!_

_This summary is very good. I'll share it with you._

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## Beast

Daniel808 said:


> So with this new delivery, at least China's Air Force have almost 30 unit of this chubby girl.



Priority shall be shifted to rapidly put the Y-20 oil tanker into service fast. PLAAF need at least 10 of its in service in 1-2 years time. With 30 Y-20 in service and estimate another 20 IL-76 transport plane, China has the biggest military transport fleet behind Russia and US. Not to mention at least another 60, Y-9 and Y-8, medium transport plane PLAAF possess.

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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> 27
> 
> So with this new delivery, at least China's Air Force have almost 30 unit of this chubby girl.



Actualyl that depends on how to read the construction numbers... so the one theory says indeed at least 26+ while others say there are only 13+ in service.

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via 中国军视网

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## JSCh

> 航空工业
> 今天 12:47 来自 专业版微博
> 【航空工业西飞转场交付复工后首架运20
> 
> 
> 
> 】2月21日，运20飞机整装待发，伴随发动机的轰鸣，如鲲鹏展翅，凌空而起。航空工业西飞按计划转场交付复工后首架运20飞机，为圆满完成全年试飞交付任务奠定了基础。
> 
> 针对本次转场任务，西飞科学防治、精准施策，制定专项工作方案，对任务全过程各环节进行细致梳理，从人员测温到环境消杀，从飞机准备到起飞转场，每个细节进行模拟验证，在用户的全力支持和协同下，确保了飞机转场任务的圆满完成。


*AVIC - Aviation Industry Corporation of China*
Today at 12:47 from the professional version of Weibo

[XAC delivery of first Y-20 after the resumption of work. [Wuwu]] On February 21, Y-20 aircraft was ready to go, accompanied by the roar of the engine, such as Kun Peng spreading its wings and rising in the air. XAC of the aviation industry delivered the first 20 aircraft after resuming work as planned, laying the foundation for the successful completion of the annual test flight delivery mission.

In response to this transfer mission, XAC scientifically controlled and accurately implemented policies, formulated a special work plan, carefully combed all links in the entire process of the mission, from personnel temperature measurement to environmental disinfection, from aircraft preparation to take-off and transfer, every detail the simulation verification was performed to ensure the successful completion of the aircraft transfer task with the full support and cooperation of users.












​

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## lcloo

This #04 is numbered 20044, so we have another new Y20 backed up by photo.


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> This #04 is numbered 20044, so we have another new Y20 backed up by photo.



Yes, but a few weeks ago a similar aircraft also numbered '04' and allegedly aimed as '55014' for the CTC's transport + SAR brigade.

So maybe both are the same?


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> Yes, but a few weeks ago a similar aircraft also numbered '04' and allegedly aimed as '55014' for the CTC's transport + SAR brigade.
> 
> So maybe both are the same?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 609082


20044 is according to Huitong's posting today on his China Military Aviation site. My guess is the new aircraft that was delivered on Feb 21st this year.

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## JSCh

*Y-20 aircraft tanker's variant to debut soon, AEW variant to follow: Air Force officer*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/2/25 17:29:50



Photo taken in June, 2016 shows two Y-20 planes, China's homegrown large transport aircraft, taxiing to airport runway. Two Y-20 planes officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on July 6, 2016. (Xinhua/Xing Guangli)

China's long-expected aerial tanker variant of the domestically developed Y-20 large transport aircraft will make its debut to the general public soon, and an aerial early warning (AEW) variant is also under development, making the Y-20 and its variants the pillars of the Chinese Air Force's strategic capabilities.

"The Y-20 cargo plane has variants like the Y-20 aerial tanker and Y-20 AEW aircraft. I believe that people will see our Y-20 aerial tanker debut on the battlefield in the not too distant future," Teng Hui, commander of an Air Force aviation regiment of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Western Theater Command and a Y-20 pilot, said on China Central Television on Monday.

The Y-20's chief designer Tang Changhong said several times that there would be variants, and a prototype tanker variant of the Y-20 was spotted on commercial satellite photos by foreign media in 2018. It is widely expected that the tanker variant will work together with and eventually replace the very few imported Il-78 tankers and the domestically developed but less capable HU-6.

When repurposed for aerial refueling, the Y-20 will be able to carry about 90 tons of fuel, similar to the Il-78, and much more than the HU-6's capacity of under 30 tons, reported Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based periodical on the national defense industry, in 2019.

It will greatly expand the PLA Air Force's operational range, allowing fighter jets and bombers to travel much greater distances, transforming the Air Force from a regional force into a strategic one, analysts said.

Compared to the tanker variant, less information is publicly available on the AEW variant.

China already operates the smaller, domestically developed KJ-200 and KJ-500 AEW aircraft, and the larger KJ-2000 AEW system, which is developed based on the frame of the Russian Il-76 transport aircraft.

The Y-20 is of similar size to the KJ-2000, but can use more advanced technologies to enhance its capabilities. For example, it may use a conformal radar array design to replace the traditional radome, which can increase the size of radars for better detection capabilities of hostile stealth aircraft, analysts said.

The Y-20 is an excellent basic platform for developing variants because of its large size and long endurance, a military expert who asked not to be named told the Global Times on Tuesday, noting that more variants, including electronic warfare aircraft, are possible.

By itself, it is a strategic cargo plane, and all of its variants can be of strategic value, the expert said.

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## Beast

JSCh said:


> *Y-20 aircraft tanker's variant to debut soon, AEW variant to follow: Air Force officer*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/2/25 17:29:50
> 
> 
> 
> Photo taken in June, 2016 shows two Y-20 planes, China's homegrown large transport aircraft, taxiing to airport runway. Two Y-20 planes officially joined the People's Liberation Army Air Force on July 6, 2016. (Xinhua/Xing Guangli)
> 
> China's long-expected aerial tanker variant of the domestically developed Y-20 large transport aircraft will make its debut to the general public soon, and an aerial early warning (AEW) variant is also under development, making the Y-20 and its variants the pillars of the Chinese Air Force's strategic capabilities.
> 
> "The Y-20 cargo plane has variants like the Y-20 aerial tanker and Y-20 AEW aircraft. I believe that people will see our Y-20 aerial tanker debut on the battlefield in the not too distant future," Teng Hui, commander of an Air Force aviation regiment of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Western Theater Command and a Y-20 pilot, said on China Central Television on Monday.
> 
> The Y-20's chief designer Tang Changhong said several times that there would be variants, and a prototype tanker variant of the Y-20 was spotted on commercial satellite photos by foreign media in 2018. It is widely expected that the tanker variant will work together with and eventually replace the very few imported Il-78 tankers and the domestically developed but less capable HU-6.
> 
> When repurposed for aerial refueling, the Y-20 will be able to carry about 90 tons of fuel, similar to the Il-78, and much more than the HU-6's capacity of under 30 tons, reported Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based periodical on the national defense industry, in 2019.
> 
> It will greatly expand the PLA Air Force's operational range, allowing fighter jets and bombers to travel much greater distances, transforming the Air Force from a regional force into a strategic one, analysts said.
> 
> Compared to the tanker variant, less information is publicly available on the AEW variant.
> 
> China already operates the smaller, domestically developed KJ-200 and KJ-500 AEW aircraft, and the larger KJ-2000 AEW system, which is developed based on the frame of the Russian Il-76 transport aircraft.
> 
> The Y-20 is of similar size to the KJ-2000, but can use more advanced technologies to enhance its capabilities. For example, it may use a conformal radar array design to replace the traditional radome, which can increase the size of radars for better detection capabilities of hostile stealth aircraft, analysts said.
> 
> The Y-20 is an excellent basic platform for developing variants because of its large size and long endurance, a military expert who asked not to be named told the Global Times on Tuesday, noting that more variants, including electronic warfare aircraft, are possible.
> 
> By itself, it is a strategic cargo plane, and all of its variants can be of strategic value, the expert said.


China shall have gone for the Y-9 tanker variant development in the early days than wait for Y-20 tanker variant. Y-20 do have a faster speed and bigger fuel capacity but have China ever consider the strategic alliance need with a Y-9 tanker just like the a USAF KC 130J?

If allies like Pakistan need an aerial refuel plane without going to Russian or Western sources. Who can it get it from? Y-20 as a tanker for Pakistan seems over killed and maybe too expensive to buy or maintain. I am wondering how it's JF-17 received it's aerial refueling from which plane?

Same as Myanmar which bought JF-17 but not having a refuel tanker which China can sell... China shall have make a Y-9 tanker which can offer as export for allies.

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## Haris Ali2140

Beast said:


> China shall have gone for the Y-9 tanker variant development in the early days than wait for Y-20 tanker variant. Y-20 do have a faster speed and bigger fuel capacity but have China ever consider the strategic alliance need with a Y-9 tanker just like the a USAF KC 130J?
> 
> If allies like Pakistan need an aerial refuel plane without going to Russian or Western sources. Who can it get it from? Y-20 as a tanker for Pakistan seems over killed and maybe too expensive to buy or maintain. I am wondering how it's JF-17 received it's aerial refueling from which plane?
> 
> Same as Myanmar which bought JF-17 but not having a refuel tanker which China can sell... China shall have make a Y-9 tanker which can offer as export for allies.



JF-17s are refuelled by IL-76s.


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## Beast

Haris Ali2140 said:


> JF-17s are refuelled by IL-76s.


Soon these IL-78 Midas airframe will get old until a stage where it cannot be life extend. A new and more modern aerial refueller is needed. If China need to expand it's military strategic need. It needs more product that can fulfill it's allies need.

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## Haris Ali2140

Beast said:


> Soon these IL-78 Midas airframe will get old until a stage where it cannot be life extend. A new and more modern aerial refueller is needed. If China need to expand it's military strategic need. It needs more product that can fulfill it's allies need.



Yes our IL-76s need replacement. According to people here IL-76s might need refuelling itself while on a refuelling mission.


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## Beast

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Yes our IL-76s need replacement. According to people here IL-76s might need refuelling itself while on a refuelling mission.


Pakistan maybe can afford 2-3 Y-20 tanker but I am not sure about other smaller countries if they bought JF-17 but left no money to buy aerial tanker from China.


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## bahadur999

Beast said:


> China shall have gone for the Y-9 tanker variant development in the early days than wait for Y-20 tanker variant. Y-20 do have a faster speed and bigger fuel capacity but have China ever consider the strategic alliance need with a Y-9 tanker just like the a USAF KC 130J?
> 
> If allies like Pakistan need an aerial refuel plane without going to Russian or Western sources. Who can it get it from? Y-20 as a tanker for Pakistan seems over killed and maybe too expensive to buy or maintain. I am wondering how it's JF-17 received it's aerial refueling from which plane?
> 
> Same as Myanmar which bought JF-17 but not having a refuel tanker which China can sell... China shall have make a Y-9 tanker which can offer as export for allies.


The Chinese netizens seems to nickname the new AEW variant as 'Y-20G' whereas the tanker as 'Y-20U'.


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## Zharang9

*KJ-3000 AEW&C based on Y-20 to detect stealth fighters*

*



*
*Important information was recently revealed by the head of the “Y-20 First Regiment” in an interview with CCTV, which made many Chinese military fans overjoyed, in which he talked about “Y-20 refueling aircraft” and “Y-20 early warning aircraft“.

After Y-20 tanker that has been put into test flight, the long-known project of Y-20 platform airborne early warning aircraft is finally been confirmed this time.

According to public papers published by Chinese leaders in the field of domestic early warning aircraft such as Lu Jun – chief engineer of the KJ-2000 project – in recent years, among the four capabilities of the next-generation early warning aircraft: high detection capability, high anti-interference capability, high identification capability, and high battlefield management capability, high detection capability of the fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft is required to be over 360 kilometers.

Although early warning aircraft experts also believe that in the future, the early warning aircraft platform will continue to develop on platforms of all sizes, and small and medium-sized aircraft platforms will be focused, while unmanned early warning system will also become a major direction, advantages of a large-size early warning aircraft platform have never been neglected.





KJ-3000 conceptual diagram

In fact, even before the Y-20 transport aircraft entered service, there had been rumors about the next-generation large-scale early warning aircraft program called KJ-3000, which would use Y-20 as a platform.

According to Zhen Chadian, a military analyst, the contemporary development of conformal antenna technology can better take advantage of the conformal antenna, which no longer needs to be compensated by significantly adjusting the aerodynamic shape of the carrier as in the past. There will be fewer restrictions on size, which helps to make full use of the body space to arrange larger radar antennas.

This is an appealing idea for the next-generation early warning aircraft which are supposed to be anti-stealth, like KJ-3000 AEW&C aircraft, as Chinese academician Wang Xiaomo, “the father of China’s early warning aircraft,” said, “The next-generation early warning aircraft should be given a higher goal, that is, to be ahead in all ways, and the Chinese will lead the new trend of early warning aircraft.”

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/02/kj3000-aewc-aircraft/
*

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## LKJ86

Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @_摄友约克_ from Weibo

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## bahadur999

*Y-20 cargo plane-Type 15 tank combination enhances Chinese military capability*


One Y-20 large transport plane can carry two Type 15 lightweight tanks and realize long-range deployment of 7,800 kilometers. Photo: Screenshot from China Central Television

By Liu Xuanzun

One domestically made Y-20 large cargo aircraft can reportedly carry two newly commissioned Type 15 tanks for long-range transport operations, and this new combination will enhance the Chinese military's strategic transport capability, experts said on Wednesday.

By using this combination, China can quickly send powerful armored reinforcements into difficult environments at high elevations, among mountains or in water-rich locations, they said.

Thanks to the Type 15 tank's light weight of about 30 tons, a Y-20 can carry two of them at once and achieve long-range deployment of 7,800 kilometers, state broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Wednesday, revealing this combination for the first time.

The transcontinental flight-capable Y-20 transport aircraft can carry more than 60 tons, and the size of its large cargo bay can fit two Type 15 tanks, Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times on Wednesday.

The Y-20 can also carry one Type 99A main battle tank, which weighs about 50 to 60 tons, but this new combination can enhance the Chinese military's strategic transport capability by offering different tactical choices, Fu said.

The lightweight Type 15 is designed to efficiently operate in difficult terrains at high elevations, in mountainous regions and water-dense areas, where a heavy tank like Type 99A may not perform at full potential, Fu said, noting that two lightweight tanks can also outperform one heavy tank in some combat scenarios.

Multiple Y-20s can also transport a mixture of Type 15s, Type 99As and other kinds of armored vehicles, leading to a significant improvement in China's long-range rapid deployment, Fu said.

China has a vast territory, and having a good aerial transport capability will optimize the military's power and structural deployment, military expert Ge Lide said on CCTV.

The Type 15 made its public debut at the National Day military parade on October 1, 2019 in Beijing, and some Type 15s were deployed in exercises in the plateaus of Southwest China's Tibet Autonomous Region in January 2020.

The Type 15 tank is the world's only modern lightweight tank in service, Chinese military magazine Weapon reported in 2019, noting it is equipped with a 105-millimeter gun and advanced sensors that can "devastate enemy light-armored vehicles in regions not suitable for heavy main battle tank deployment."

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## aziqbal

until the Y20 doesn't have indigenous engine surely it cannot lift 60 tons?

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## kungfugymnast

aziqbal said:


> until the Y20 doesn't have indigenous engine surely it cannot lift 60 tons?



Y20 made with technology reverse engineered from IL-76, don't expect it to match C-17 Globemaster III that could carry 2x M-1A2SEP. Since Ukraine breakaway and owned AN-226 Mriya Cossack, China should pay Ukraine for the AN-226 technology buyout to come up with true heavy airlifter

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## Deino

bahadur999 said:


> *Y-20 cargo plane-Type 15 tank combination enhances Chinese military capability*
> 
> 
> One Y-20 large transport plane can carry two Type 15 lightweight tanks and realize long-range deployment of 7,800 kilometers. Photo: Screenshot from China Central Television
> 
> By Liu Xuanzun
> 
> One domestically made Y-20 large cargo aircraft can reportedly carry two newly commissioned Type 15 tanks for long-range transport operations, and this new combination will enhance the Chinese military's strategic transport capability, experts said on Wednesday.
> 
> By using this combination, China can quickly send powerful armored reinforcements into difficult environments at high elevations, among mountains or in water-rich locations, they said.
> 
> Thanks to the Type 15 tank's light weight of about 30 tons, a Y-20 can carry two of them at once and achieve long-range deployment of 7,800 kilometers, state broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Wednesday, revealing this combination for the first time.
> 
> The transcontinental flight-capable Y-20 transport aircraft can carry more than 60 tons, and the size of its large cargo bay can fit two Type 15 tanks, Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times on Wednesday.
> 
> The Y-20 can also carry one Type 99A main battle tank, which weighs about 50 to 60 tons, but this new combination can enhance the Chinese military's strategic transport capability by offering different tactical choices, Fu said.
> 
> The lightweight Type 15 is designed to efficiently operate in difficult terrains at high elevations, in mountainous regions and water-dense areas, where a heavy tank like Type 99A may not perform at full potential, Fu said, noting that two lightweight tanks can also outperform one heavy tank in some combat scenarios.
> 
> Multiple Y-20s can also transport a mixture of Type 15s, Type 99As and other kinds of armored vehicles, leading to a significant improvement in China's long-range rapid deployment, Fu said.
> 
> China has a vast territory, and having a good aerial transport capability will optimize the military's power and structural deployment, military expert Ge Lide said on CCTV.
> 
> The Type 15 made its public debut at the National Day military parade on October 1, 2019 in Beijing, and some Type 15s were deployed in exercises in the plateaus of Southwest China's Tibet Autonomous Region in January 2020.
> 
> The Type 15 tank is the world's only modern lightweight tank in service, Chinese military magazine Weapon reported in 2019, noting it is equipped with a 105-millimeter gun and advanced sensors that can "devastate enemy light-armored vehicles in regions not suitable for heavy main battle tank deployment."




Concerning this news I must admit it is indeed surprising, skeptical and in fact question its credibility, since we usually thought, the Y-20 won't be able to carry one of the Type 99A MBTs (or about 58t). 
As such to carry 2 Type 15 (with about 33-36 t each) would surpass with 66-72 t even the officially mentioned maximum payload of 60 t.

But these are just my thoughts. 

Best,
Deino


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 616759
> 
> Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo




At first I thought this might be the well known Y-20A no. 11056 (4. TD), but it lacks the yellow stripe ... then I thought it might be a so far not confirmed 20046 (13. TD), but also those attached to the 13th Transport Division lack that yellow stripe. So in fact I'm confused.

Mystery solved


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248193772736872451


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## juj06750

to deino & other west foreigners
again, it's our arms; listen to what china says
our state media NEVER lie (if it says, then it is)
yes it's true that our new transport aircaft Y20A can carry up to 66 tons (one type 99 tank or two type 15 tanks)
although it has never shown dropping any tank from its flight yet
it had passed all necessary tests and activities as of strategic transport aircraft before it entered the service in 2016


----------



## zhxy

Y-20 is a great plane. But China needs bigger transport aircraft. Similar to AN-225


----------



## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> Y20 made with technology reverse engineered from IL-76


I can't agree with you.

Why does Y-20A equipped with weak engines still perform better than the latest IL-76MD-90A (IL-476)?

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## Ultima Thule

kungfugymnast said:


> Y20 made with technology reverse engineered from IL-76


 i would like to say from both project (IL-76 and from C-17) Y-20 have High lift device on the wings similar to C-17s , whereas IL-76 lack these high lift devices on wings


----------



## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> I can't agree with you.
> 
> Why does Y-20A equipped with weak engines still perform better than the latest IL-76MD-90A (IL-476)?



Y20 is newer ofcourse better than the old IL-76



seven0seven said:


> i would like to say from both project (IL-76 and from C-17) Y-20 have High lift device on the wings similar to C-17s , whereas IL-76 lack these high lift devices on wings



It copied some design cue and features from C-17 to improve lift. Nothing more. Ukraine is hit with economic downturns and won't hesitate to sell technology to China. While Antonov is still open to offer, China should quickly buy technology for AN-226 Mriya Cossack. It is one fine beast, China could build 4x engines and 6 engines heavy airlifter.



zhxy said:


> Y-20 is a great plane. But China needs bigger transport aircraft. Similar to AN-225



Yes they do need it


----------



## Ultima Thule

kungfugymnast said:


> It copied some design cue and features from C-17 to improve lift. Nothing more. Ukraine is hit with economic downturns and won't hesitate to sell technology to China. While Antonov is still open to offer, China should quickly buy technology for AN-226 Mriya Cossack. It is one fine beast, China could build 4x engines and 6 engines heavy airlifter.


In your above post you said that Y-20 only based upon IL-76, that's why i said you're wrong Y-20 is also inspired by C-17

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## kungfugymnast

seven0seven said:


> In your above post you said that Y-20 only based upon IL-76, that's why i said you're wrong Y-20 is also inspired by C-17



I said technology derived from IL-76 out of reverse engineering. 

Antonov is desperate for business and China should buy aircrafts such as AN-72 Coaler, AN-225 Mriya and fund some of their new airlifter project to reverse engineer.

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## Ultima Thule

kungfugymnast said:


> I said technology derived from IL-76 out of reverse engineering.
> 
> Antonov is desperate for business and China should buy aircrafts such as AN-72 Coaler, AN-225 Mriya and fund some of their new airlifter project to reverse engineer.


And same goes to C-17 why are you not referring to C-17 and i think few year back the deal was done by Anatov and China to transfer the tech of AN-225 to China

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## Deino

zhxy said:


> C-17 is an outdated transport aircraft. China has enough capacity to build a better new super transport plane




Could you please stop posting pure nonsense post!?? 

Calling the C-17 outdated, demanding new super-duper transport planes and esp. proposing to built a floating 200,000 ton helicopter assault platform is so much beyond any logic and rationale.

Simply stop with this BS, such ideas are plain off-topic.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Could you please stop posting pure nonsense post!??
> 
> Calling the C-17 outdated, demanding new super-duper transport planes and esp. proposing to built a floating 200,000 ton helicopter assault platform is so much beyond any logic and rationale.
> 
> Simply stop with this BS, such ideas are plain off-topic.


He is flying vietnamese flag, I think he is just trying to come here and mess up. Strong action need to taken if another round of nonsense spew again from him.

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## Deino

OBLiTeRate TrumpTurd said:


> Does NOT matter if he/she is flying Vietnam Flag or any other nation Flag.
> 
> If his/her posting support PRC, then all PDF Chinese members
> SHALL click the (THANKS) button to support & lift his/her
> attitude of helping PRC.
> 
> But, 95% of PDF Chinese are so short sighted and extremely foolish and LAZY
> in examining the underlying content of the his/her posting.
> 
> And only judging the posters based on their Flag.
> 
> *No wonder, everywhere around the world, PRC and
> Chinese people are always losing the Public Relation battle.*
> 
> Majority of PDF Chinese are always foolishly destroying so many Goodwill
> shown by other nation posters who support PRC.
> 
> My last post on this issue.
> Back to the Y-20 topic.




I can only strongly oppose this post since I really don't se how posting stupid ideas, BS and fake news could benefit the Chinese standing since they are quality-wise like all these Indian announcements of Tejas Mk.2, Orca or even AMCA.

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## samsara

OBLiTeRate TrumpTurd said:


> Does NOT matter if he/she is flying Vietnam Flag or any other nation Flag.
> 
> If his/her posting support PRC, then all PDF Chinese members
> SHALL click the (THANKS) button to support & lift his/her
> attitude of helping PRC.
> 
> But, 95% of PDF Chinese are so short sighted and extremely foolish and LAZY
> in examining the underlying content of the his/her posting.
> 
> And only judging the posters based on their Flag.
> 
> 
> *No wonder, everywhere around the world, PRC and
> Chinese people are always losing the Public Relation battle.*
> 
> Majority of PDF Chinese are always foolishly destroying so many Goodwill
> shown by other nation posters who support PRC.
> 
> @zhxy
> 
> My last post on this issue.
> Back to the Y-20 topic.


What kind post to say thing like this!
Which member behaves like that??? 

For me, a stupid post remains stupid, whatever flag he may wave around. And posting some dumb thing, something not realistic is not wanted here. I don't want to see a fantasy imaginary land here, regardless one's color or inclination.

For me, thing must be realistic, factual. And I do believe many Chinese members here share the same principles, that it can't belong to a fantasy land, of laughing stock. 

You are not new here, wonder how can you post such silly lines above and made such wide, bold and striking accusation.

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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> Heavy airlifters are never too big. Imagine if China has dozen aircrafts the size of AN-225 and there's war happens to ally. China could easily deploy fighters, tanks, SAMs etc over 6000NM away quickly equipped that country defenses against powerful invader like US.
> 
> AN-124 or C-5B, you could see fighters having to squuezed through tight interior compartment compared to AN-225 that has ample space. Having airlifters of both sizes are good anyway.
> 
> The Y20, yes they could still upgrade its engines to carry heavier cargo in future.



An-225 is simply too big and heavy for most of the airport to handle. It can only landed in few designated airport to unload cargo. It need extremely long runaway to take off. Not a very good things from a military point of view. Even An-124 and C-5 are considered too big and very expensive to operate. That is why IL-476/76 and C-17 are the workhorse for Russia and USAF. 

Same can be say for Y-20 for China. If China need a An-124 or C-5, it will be in limited numbers.

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## Deino

seven0seven said:


> i admit that USA did to improve its concepts/theories/tactics about its weapon development projects based on Russian weapon systems like high off bore short range air to air missiles etc etc and vice versa but copy is not right word for it



*Agreed, and now back to the topic!*

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## 艹艹艹

in Pakistan

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## Daniel808

艹∴∵ said:


> in Pakistan
> View attachment 626771



First Y-20 overseas deployment?

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253661983712264194

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## kuge

to pakistan, myanmar & laos

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## SD 10

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253661983712264194

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## Daniel808

kuge said:


> to pakistan, myanmar & laos




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253677708275572738

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## nomi007

Hope PAF will examine this transport aircraft for PAF


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## Char

Beast said:


> An-225 is simply too big and heavy for most of the airport to handle. It can only landed in few designated airport to unload cargo. It need extremely long runaway to take off. Not a very good things from a military point of view. Even An-124 and C-5 are considered too big and very expensive to operate. That is why IL-476/76 and C-17 are the workhorse for Russia and USAF.
> 
> Same can be say for Y-20 for China. If China need a An-124 or C-5, it will be in limited numbers.



Need some bigger ones to show off.


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## Deino

Char said:


> Need some bigger ones to show off.




Bigger is not always better ... and sometimes even less.

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Bigger is not always better ... and sometimes even less.


True, An-225 can only land and take off from few airports.

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## LKJ86

Via @空骑兵雨人 from Weibo

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## Ali_Baba

Looks very impressive, as does the build quality.

Has anything been published about its max service life, and max flying hours yet? Any indication of cost etc..

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## LKJ86

Via @我们的天空 from Weixin

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## waja2000

Ali_Baba said:


> Looks very impressive, as does the build quality.
> 
> Has anything been published about its max service life, and max flying hours yet? Any indication of cost etc..



agree, just waiting the engine upgrade ..

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255386032868122626

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## waja2000

small source news from tieba said, china military already give-up WS-20 engine, due to CJ-1000AX progress well and will be have CJ-1000 mil version which better power than WS-20, other reason is development 2 type engine WS-20 more wasting more resources, cost, extra cost for future CAPEX. so China Mil full direction waiting CJ-1000.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256569737578008578

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## laser911

waja2000 said:


> small source news from tieba said, china military already give-up WS-20 engine, due to CJ-1000AX progress well and will be have CJ-1000 mil version which better power than WS-20, other reason is development 2 type engine WS-20 more wasting more resources, cost, extra cost for future CAPEX. so China Mil full direction waiting CJ-1000.



Where is the CJ1000 being developed? It might take another 5years to get the engine no?


----------



## Beast

waja2000 said:


> small source news from tieba said, china military already give-up WS-20 engine, due to CJ-1000AX progress well and will be have CJ-1000 mil version which better power than WS-20, other reason is development 2 type engine WS-20 more wasting more resources, cost, extra cost for future CAPEX. so China Mil full direction waiting CJ-1000.


I doubt that. WS-20 will be needed for militarized C919 AEW & MPA. CJ-1000AX may not be available that soon.

As I predicted, WS-20 will not be install for Y-20 in near future. WS-18 is a more important engine as it can be used for H-6K/H-6H and Y-20. Something WS-20 not able to do it due to oversize to fit into H-6K. Using a single engine for 2 type of aircraft will ease maintenance and logistic, saving cost.

WS-20 are build with closely borrow heavy technology from CMF-56 and WS-10. It shouldnt be an engine too difficult to conquer. Not to mention many China passenger aircraft are using these engines and they have any decades of experience handling this engine.

Not using WS-20 engine is more of a political will or the logistic requirement rather than not able to replicate an engine with current China technology.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> I doubt that. WS-20 will be needed for militarized C919 AEW & MPA. CJ-1000AX may not be available that soon.
> 
> As I predicted, WS-20 will not be install for Y-20 in near future. WS-18 is a more important engine as it can be used for H-6K/H-6H and Y-20. Something WS-20 not able to do it due to oversize to fit into H-6K. Using a single engine for 2 type of aircraft will ease maintenance and logistic, saving cost.
> 
> WS-20 are build with closely borrow heavy technology from CMF-56 and WS-10. It shouldnt be an engine too difficult to conquer. Not to mention many China passenger aircraft are using these engines and they have any decades of experience handling this engine.
> 
> Not using WS-20 engine is more of a political will or the logistic requirement rather than not able to replicate an engine with current China technology.




I remember you saying this since years and Yes, I was always skeptical on this. So, well done.

By the way, what is the engine suggested for the H-20?

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## waja2000

Beast said:


> I doubt that. WS-20 will be needed for militarized C919 AEW & MPA. CJ-1000AX may not be available that soon.
> 
> As I predicted, WS-20 will not be install for Y-20 in near future. WS-18 is a more important engine as it can be used for H-6K/H-6H and Y-20. Something WS-20 not able to do it due to oversize to fit into H-6K. Using a single engine for 2 type of aircraft will ease maintenance and logistic, saving cost.
> 
> WS-20 are build with closely borrow heavy technology from CMF-56 and WS-10. It shouldnt be an engine too difficult to conquer. Not to mention many China passenger aircraft are using these engines and they have any decades of experience handling this engine.
> 
> Not using WS-20 engine is more of a political will or the logistic requirement rather than not able to replicate an engine with current China technology.



Early news estimate CJ-1000AX will ready by 2026/27, since it progress well , plus concern/prepare on US sanction LEAP-1 engine，i believe china will speed up CJ-1000AX development to ready by 2024/25. As your predicted WS-20 will not be install for Y-20 in near future, so make sense just end WS-20 development, since Y-20 can use D-30KP-2/WS-18. C919 & Y-20 can use CJ-1000AX。 In 2020 china will receive 56 unit D-30KP-2 engine from russia.

In other view i don't think militarized C919 AEW & MPA soon, since it have 40-50% Foreigner parts which majority from US, US can simply ban those parts export, i believe those contract will be commercial use only, also i don't think COMAC want take risk. 

i believe H6 will end production soon. WS-18 just local made D-30KP-2 which not bring much power to Y-20. 
Anyway CJ-1000AX more close to LEAP-1 engine.


----------



## Beast

waja2000 said:


> Early news estimate CJ-1000AX will ready by 2026/27, since it progress well , plus concern/prepare on US sanction LEAP-1 engine，i believe china will speed up CJ-1000AX development to ready by 2024/25. As your predicted WS-20 will not be install for Y-20 in near future, so make sense just end WS-20 development, since Y-20 can use D-30KP-2/WS-18. C919 & Y-20 can use CJ-1000AX。 In 2020 china will receive 56 unit D-30KP-2 engine from russia.
> 
> In other view i don't think militarized C919 AEW & MPA soon, since it have 40-50% Foreigner parts which majority from US, US can simply ban those parts export, i believe those contract will be commercial use only, also i don't think COMAC want take risk.
> 
> i believe H6 will end production soon. WS-18 just local made D-30KP-2 which not bring much power to Y-20.
> Anyway CJ-1000AX more close to LEAP-1 engine.


 
H-6 production will end soon but does than mean the whole fleet of H6k and H6N are going to retired in just few years time? I dont think after spending billion in building almost many squadron of H-6K and H6N, they are going to drop those planes and retired serving less than 10 years? They are foresee to stay in PLAAF for at least another 10 years. It is absolutely worth continue using WS-18 for both Y-20 and the H6 bomber fleet. There is no more purchase of D-30KP-2 from Russia. Last delivery was in 2016 and subsequently, no new delivery or deal are signed.


----------



## waja2000

Beast said:


> H-6 production will end soon but does than mean the whole fleet of H6k and H6N are going to retired in just few years time? I dont think after spending billion in building almost many squadron of H-6K and H6N, they are going to drop those planes and retired serving less than 10 years? They are foresee to stay in PLAAF for at least another 10 years. It is absolutely worth continue using WS-18 for both Y-20 and the H6 bomber fleet. There is no more purchase of D-30KP-2 from Russia. Last delivery was in 2016 and subsequently, no new delivery or deal are signed.



I already mention end production (don't think too much), plane usually can used 20~30+ years. it is common sense. 
Anyway just small news, only time will tell true or not.


----------



## vi-va

Deino said:


> I remember you saying this since years and Yes, I was always skeptical on this. So, well done.
> 
> By the way, what is the engine suggested for the H-20?


non-afterburning variant of NK-32


----------



## Deino

viva_zhao said:


> non-afterburning variant of NK-32




Really? I know this engine is aimed for the PAK-DA but I don't think Russia will sell China it for the H-20?


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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Really? I know this engine is aimed for the PAK-DA but I don't think Russia will sell China it for the H-20?


I can't find the original source in cjdby. There is one guy his name is 空军厂 on cjdby. He is PLA air force, especially Radar expert. Real expert, very knowledgeable. He has access to very sensitive PLA materials.

Nk-32 is what I remembered 2 years ago.

China already finished H-20 design, first flight is done, or maybe later this year which I am not sure. Nobody want to leak the info, it's way too confidential.

H-20 is bigger than B-2, which is for sure.

I don't think Russia want to sell it neither. But there is possibility China can use something else which Russia need badly to exchange. Unlike India, China has some cutting edge technology which Russia can't easily buy from western countries. and China won't need a lot of Nk-32, it will be replaced by domestic made engine anyway.

Off topic a little bit. 空军厂 also predict that China will use J-31 for aircraft carrier 2-3 years ago. He knew how to organize aircraft carrier air defense a lot, he is expert. In stealth and hyper-sonic era, aircraft carrier is in great danger, nothing is reliable. The only way for air defense is using stealthy fighter jet air patrolling all the time. Basically it will need at least double/triple jets in the air for patrolling only. It means big jet won't fit.

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## LKJ86

Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @奇圆JeffHoly from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin

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## 艹艹艹

in Thailand

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260064909213134853

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## lcloo

3rd overseas flight was to Sri Lanka, by 20042.

Originally posted in tweeter by
Asiri
@AsiriFernandoLK

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## Beast

lcloo said:


> 3rd overseas flight was to Sri Lanka, by 20042.
> 
> Originally posted in tweeter by
> Asiri
> @AsiriFernandoLK
> 
> View attachment 631747


Surprisingly, all those countries China send their Y-20 express interest in getting new strategic airlifter.

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## SD 10

Beast said:


> Surprisingly, all those countries China send their Y-20 express interest in getting new strategic airlifter.


I hope Pakistan could get it. What's tge lift capacity of y20?

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## Beast

SD 10 said:


> I hope Pakistan could get it. What's tge lift capacity of y20?


56 tons currently with WS-18 engine, enough to lift a VT-4 mbt to location thousands Km away.

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## LKJ86

Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> 3rd overseas flight was to Sri Lanka, by 20042.
> 
> Originally posted in tweeter by
> Asiri
> @AsiriFernandoLK
> 
> View attachment 631747


*China donates medical aid to Defence Ministry to fight against coronavirus*
May 12, 2020
Source:http://www.defence.lk/Article/view_article/1495

China has donated a large stock of medical aid to the Defence Ministry to strengthen the military’s contribution to control spread of the coronavirus in the country, today.

People’s Liberation Army-Air Force Y-20 flight arrived with a consignment of medical aid weighing over 5 tons was received at the Bandaranaike International Airport, this morning.

The medical supplies included 70,000 disposable medical masks, 9,000 surgical masks, 9,000 medical surgical masks (KN95), 6,300 medical protective goggles, 4,500 disposable medical protective screens, 4,500 disposable medical protective suits, 4,500 disposable medical isolation gowns, 9,000 disposable medical boot covers, 80 disposable medical gloves, 30 infusion pumps, 02 disinfectant sprayers (16L), 70 IR thermometers and 02 infrared image temperature observing helmets.

In a statement issued by the Embassy states: “Sri Lankan Armed Forces are playing important role in curbing the spread of COVID-19 and facing much risk. The People’s Liberation Army of Chian shares the same experience and emotion with Sri Lankan counterpart. The Ministry of National Defence of PRC decided to donate medical supplies to Sri Lanka Armed Forces to facilitate their operations.

Representing the People’s Liberation Armed Forces of China, Military, Naval and Air Attaché Senior Colonel Wan Dong, and Assistant Military, Naval and Air Attaché Lieutenant Colonel Chang Qianjin handed over the medical consignment officially to Defence Ministry’s Military Liaison Officer Brigadier Nishantha Manage, at the BIA.

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## LKJ86

Islamabad
May 12, 2020

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## 艹艹艹

in Myanmar

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## LKJ86

艹艹艹 said:


> in Myanmar
> View attachment 631957

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## LKJ86

Uzbekistan
May 13, 2020













Source:http://uz.chineseembassy.org/chn/sgxx/sgsd/t1778753.htm

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## aziqbal

is it the same Y20 doing all the COVID missions or different ones?


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## LKJ86

Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo

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## LKJ86

aziqbal said:


> is it the same Y20 doing all the COVID missions or different ones?


Different ones.

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## mikaal hassan

who does all Chinese engine smoke too much


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## Ultima Thule

mikaal hassan said:


> who does all Chinese engine smoke too much


Currently it uses Russian engine not Chinese


----------



## juj06750

mikaal hassan said:


> who does all Chinese engine smoke too much


yes most high thrust engines smoke much when they're full powered


IAU said:


> Currently it uses Russian engine not Chinese


Nope; currently Y20 uses WS18;
only newcomers keep asking it forever

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## Deino

juj06750 said:


> yes most high thrust engines smoke much when they're full powered





Again a plain wrong and stupid claim: Name any modern Western airliner powerplant that "smoke much when they're full powered"? None of them do so at least not in regular service.

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## Beast

mikaal hassan said:


> who does all Chinese engine smoke too much


The smoke only occurs during take off and landing phase , other than that no smoke are much spotted when cruising. Not a big issue. Smoke is more critical for fighter jet cos when dogfight and you can see the trait.. 

Transport plane more important aspect are payload , reliability and performance.

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## mikaal hassan

Deino said:


> Again a plain wrong and stupid claim: Name any modern Western airliner powerplant that "smoke much when they're full powered"? None of them do so at least not in regular service.


that is what i was thinking too its only with the Chinese and Russian engines you see smoke coming out not with any western engines .but again i respect Chinese development speed and the amount of money they are spending in R&D in next 5 to 10 years max they will be far more advance then western countries


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## laser911

juj06750 said:


> yes most high thrust engines smoke much when they're full powered
> 
> Nope; currently Y20 uses WS18;
> only newcomers keep asking it forever



Most modern engines will have low smoke design. WS18 still at an early stage, it is still using D30 now.



mikaal hassan said:


> that is what i was thinking too its only with the Chinese and Russian engines you see smoke coming out not with any western engines .but again i respect Chinese development speed and the amount of money they are spending in R&D in next 5 to 10 years max they will be far more advance then western countries


Old western engines like J57 and J79 also smoke. They are at similar age to D30 tho (just a few years earlier).

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## juj06750

Deino said:


> Again a plain wrong and stupid claim: Name any modern Western airliner powerplant that "smoke much when they're full powered"? None of them do so at least not in regular service.






again; another stupid response by image hogger 
smoking is always no matter type of engine (or type of service)


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## SD 10

juj06750 said:


> again; another stupid response by image hogger
> smoking is always no matter type of engine (or type of service)


leave that idiot...he won`t understand!!!!!!!!!


----------



## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 632352
> View attachment 632353
> View attachment 632354
> View attachment 632355
> View attachment 632356
> 
> Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo








Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo

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## Ultima Thule

juj06750 said:


> again; another stupid response by image hogger
> smoking is always no matter type of engine (or type of service)


It does also depends on weather conditions


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## Ultima Thule

mikaal hassan said:


> that is what i was thinking too its only with the Chinese and Russian engines you see smoke coming out not with any western engines .but again i respect Chinese development speed and the amount of money they are spending in R&D in next 5 to 10 years max they will be far more advance then western countries


its also depends on weather conditions , i can show you lots clips that's shows F-16/F-15/F-14 engines also smokes


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## Imran Khan



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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266367065285246977

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## SD 10

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266367065285246977


how many y20 China has produced till today? Any stats?


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## lcloo

SD 10 said:


> how many y20 China has produced till today? Any stats?


Plane spotters have counted 15 in-service Y20 with photo evidence.

However, from satellite photos from end 2018 and end 2019, we know there are more than twice this number rolled out from factory.





posted on Huitong's Chinese Military Aviation.





Yanlian airfield photo

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## lcloo

18 Y20 at Yanlian airfield on 2020 March 17th

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## aziqbal

no doubt the number is over 30 units

would love to see a line up !


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## UKBengali

What happened to the WS-20 engine that has been in flying tests since 2014?


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## Han Patriot

UKBengali said:


> What happened to the WS-20 engine that has been in flying tests since 2014?


Still testing I guess. Most of the new ones are using WS18, aka cloned D30s

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## UKBengali

Han Patriot said:


> Still testing I guess. Most of the new ones are using WS18, aka cloned D30s



Not exactly a good sign on the progress in Chinese engine technology.

If China needs so long to be able to bring a turbofan engine(with 1990s US tech) for a four engine plane into service, the omens do not look good I am afraid.


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## Han Patriot

UKBengali said:


> Not exactly a good sign on the progress in Chinese engine technology.
> 
> If China needs so long to be able to bring a turbofan engine(with 1990s US tech) for a four engine plane into service, the omens do not look good I am afraid.


I don't know the details mate, that's the penalty of starting from scratch and not having a 80 year old engine industry.


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## UKBengali

Han Patriot said:


> I don't know the details mate, that's the penalty of starting from scratch and not having a 80 year old engine industry.




To be honest I thought back in 2014 all new build Y-20s from say 2018 will be equipped with the WS-20 engine which is only 1990s level US tech but without the lifetime and reliability of the US engine that is on the C-17.

The fact that it is still not ready again highlights just how far behind China is compared to the US in engine tech.

Saying this the US/UK are in a class of their own when it comes to engine tech. Others like the French and the Russians are 1-2 decades behind them. China is a little behind than even the Russians now, although I think that sometime towards the latter part of this decade the Chinese should reach Russian levels of engine tech.

Hopefully this specific example should drill some realism into pdf Chinese posters that China is still many decades behind the West in some aspects of critical technology.


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## Han Patriot

UKBengali said:


> To be honest I thought back in 2014 all new build Y-20s from say 2018 will be equipped with the WS-20 engine which is only 1990s level US tech but without the lifetime and reliability of the US engine that is on the C-17.
> 
> The fact that it is still not ready again highlights just how far behind China is compared to the US in engine tech.
> 
> Saying this the US/UK are in a class of their own when it comes to engine tech. Others like the French and the Russians are 1-2 decades behind them. China is a little behind than even the Russians now, although I think that sometime towards the latter part of this decade the Chinese should reach Russian levels of engine tech.
> 
> Hopefully this specific example should drill some realism into pdf Chinese posters that China is still many decades behind the West in some aspects of critical technology.


I wouldn't say many decades, I would say 20 years at most. Anyway, the first step is always the hardest. Better try than nothing right, India is a good example of not trying and failing to take off they might be a 100 years behind. Lol


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## lcloo

The strategic importance of putting Y20 into service in large number far out weight the use of 1990 style engines. If China will to wait for a 2020 era modern engine and delay production of Y20, there will be a large gap in strategic lifting capability of PLAAF.

Y20 is of paramount important in fast deployment of soldiers and heavy equipment like armour vehicles, war materials and other logistics, as well as helicopters like Z20, Z10 & Z19 to battle front, an example of which is potential flash points at the border with India..

I am looking toward 2025 for new engine deployment.

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## Beast

Han Patriot said:


> Still testing I guess. Most of the new ones are using WS18, aka cloned D30s


No, its not. Mostly to do with logistic issue than testing.

Why introduced 2 types of engine when one type can do both job and fulfil its need? Can WS-20 fill in this bomber?












With WS-18 engine, Y-20 can still carries 56tons of payload. While logistic issue is simplier ,operating cost is cheaper. China type99A mbt weights only 54tons.

There are estimate 100 new H-6K, H-6H. They are not going to retired in just few years time. They will still play an important role for PLAAF for many years. The production line of WS-18 is going to keep open for sometimes. Ask yourself, if you are PLAAF commander and with a large AF need modernized and trying all attempt to keep cost low.
Will you introduced 2 types of engine with not much benefit while adding up operating cost?


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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> No, its not. Mostly to do with logistic issue than testing.
> 
> Why introduced 2 types of engine when one type can do both job and fulfil its need? Can WS-20 fill in this bomber?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With WS-18 engine, Y-20 can still carries 56tons of payload. While logistic issue is simplier ,operating cost is cheaper. China type99A mbt weights only 54tons.
> 
> There are estimate 100 new H-6K, H-6H. They are not going to retired in just few years time. They will still play an important role for PLAAF for many years. The production line of WS-18 is going to keep open for sometimes. Ask yourself, if you are PLAAF commander and with a large AF need modernized and trying all attempt to keep cost low.
> Will you introduced 2 types of engine with not much benefit while adding up operating cost?



Using a newer engines saves on fuel costs. Having more weight capacity saves on flights(pack in more vehicles) which again reduces cost.

Also China is determined to build up it's engine tech as soon as possible and would use WS-20 if it was ready.


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## UKBengali

Han Patriot said:


> I wouldn't say many decades, I would say 20 years at most. Anyway, the first step is always the hardest. Better try than nothing right, India is a good example of not trying and failing to take off they might be a 100 years behind. Lol




Well around 10 years ago, I read an article by a Chinese engine expert who said that the Chinese then were 30 years behind the US/UK in engine tech and he thought that it would take China till 2040 to catch-up.

China will more than likely catch up with the leaders in engine tech within a generation(25 years), but it is still quite some decades(2-3) behind.

I think when the next decade starts China will be completely free of dependence on anyone in either military or civilian engine tech. This is so important for China that they would even subsidise their airlines to use less efficient Chinese engines.


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## Han Patriot

UKBengali said:


> Well around 10 years ago, I read an article by a Chinese engine expert who said that the Chinese then were 30 years behind the US/UK in engine tech and he thought that it would take China till 2040 to catch-up.
> 
> China will more than likely catch up with the leaders in engine tech within a generation(25 years), but it is still quite some decades(2-3) behind.
> 
> I think when the next decade starts China will be completely free of dependence on anyone in either military or civilian engine tech. This is so important for China that they would even subsidise their airlines to use less efficient Chinese engines.


The thing is the best engine in F22 is still the best 20 years later. So there is a latecomers advantage here. Engine manufacturers need time to recoup investments typically 20 years.

I think we would use less efficient engines for domestic market and bar US engine in retaliation, you don't really need to subsidized it, it will still make money in absence of competition. Just les


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## obj 705A

Beast said:


> No, its not. Mostly to do with logistic issue than testing.
> 
> Why introduced 2 types of engine when one type can do both job and fulfil its need? Can WS-20 fill in this bomber?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With WS-18 engine, Y-20 can still carries 56tons of payload. While logistic issue is simplier ,operating cost is cheaper. China type99A mbt weights only 54tons.
> 
> There are estimate 100 new H-6K, H-6H. They are not going to retired in just few years time. They will still play an important role for PLAAF for many years. The production line of WS-18 is going to keep open for sometimes. Ask yourself, if you are PLAAF commander and with a large AF need modernized and trying all attempt to keep cost low.
> Will you introduced 2 types of engine with not much benefit while adding up operating cost?



frankly I highly doubt that the reason why China is not mass producing WS-20 is that they thought "hey WS-18 is good enough for our needs", no the WS-18 is not good enough for China, if it was then why even bother developing the WS-20?

it's always like this with Chinese & Russian netizens, whenever they talk about a weapon that they still can't mass produce or haven't finished developing, they say "we don't have it not because we can't produce it yet, but because we don't need it", but then once they produce it they say "oh we actually do need it".
take for example the aircraft carrier, before China started building the type 002 the Chinese used to say "naaah we don't need aircraft carriers that is why we are not building them" but then once the Chinese began building them, they made fun of the Russians when the Russians said "aircraft carriers are not needed".

now to this day I still see some Chinese netizens saying "hey we don't need to mass produce nuclear submarines, conventional submarines are enough", they don't want to admit they can't mass produce them (the type 095) yet, but I assure you, once China does start mass producing the type 095, those commentators will begin saying "having SSNs is of utmost importance". 

same thing goes for the WS-20, you say the reason why China isn't mass producing it yet is not because it's not ready, but because they don't need it since WS-18 powers both the H-6k & Y-20 to save money on logistics (as if China is some dirt poor nation that can't afford to spend money on logestics for an engine, and not the second biggest economy), but I assure you, once China does mass produce the WS-20 while the H-6 would still be in service, you will change your statement.

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## UKBengali

Han Patriot said:


> The thing is the best engine in F22 is still the best 20 years later. So there is a latecomers advantage here. Engine manufacturers need time to recoup investments typically 20 years.
> 
> I think we would use less efficient engines for domestic market and bar US engine in retaliation, you don't really need to subsidized it, it will still make money in absence of competition. Just les




Well if it is not the Chinese government subsidising the less efficient Chinese engines, then the Chinese consumer will. Either way China will be prepared to pay more to gain engine independence.


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## Han Patriot

UKBengali said:


> Well if it is not the Chinese government subsidising the less efficient Chinese engines, then the Chinese consumer will. Either way China will be prepared to pay more to gain engine independence.


Consumers will pay more. Its the same with 5G equipment, by barring Huawei, US consumers will pay a 20% premium in absence of competition. But i would agree Trump doing it if I was an American.


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## Beast

obj 705A said:


> frankly I highly doubt that the reason why China is not mass producing WS-20 is that they thought "hey WS-18 is good enough for our needs", no the WS-18 is not good enough for China, if it was then why even bother developing the WS-20?
> 
> it's always like this with Chinese & Russian netizens, whenever they talk about a weapon that they still can't mass produce or haven't finished developing, they say "we don't have it not because we can't produce it yet, but because we don't need it", but then once they produce it they say "oh we actually do need it".
> take for example the aircraft carrier, before China started building the type 002 the Chinese used to say "naaah we don't need aircraft carriers that is why we are not building them" but then once the Chinese began building them, they made fun of the Russians when the Russians said "aircraft carriers are not needed".
> 
> now to this day I still see some Chinese netizens saying "hey we don't need to mass produce nuclear submarines, conventional submarines are enough", they don't want to admit they can't mass produce them (the type 095) yet, but I assure you, once China does start mass producing the type 095, those commentators will begin saying "having SSNs is of utmost importance".
> 
> same thing goes for the WS-20, you say the reason why China isn't mass producing it yet is not because it's not ready, but because they don't need it since WS-18 powers both the H-6k & Y-20 to save money on logistics (as if China is some dirt poor nation that can't afford to spend money on logestics for an engine, and not the second biggest economy), but I assure you, once China does mass produce the WS-20 while the H-6 would still be in service, you will change your statement.


WS-20 is for enlarged version of Y-20F





_The Y-20F-100 will be longer than the Y-20 and can carry 28 airfreight containers, or 65 metric tons of cargo, as well as supersized engineering equipment. It has a maximum range of 8,000 km, AVIC said._

WS-20 also for militarise C919 which will convert to MPA,AEW or new AWACS. Militarise version will be full localise with no foreign import parts.

WS-20 will arrived eventually but not now. There is no need for it currently. The day C919 is mature in around 2024, you will see WS-20 used and production line setup for it.



UKBengali said:


> Well around 10 years ago, I read an article by a Chinese engine expert who said that the Chinese then were 30 years behind the US/UK in engine tech and he thought that it would take China till 2040 to catch-up.
> 
> China will more than likely catch up with the leaders in engine tech within a generation(25 years), but it is still quite some decades(2-3) behind.
> 
> I think when the next decade starts China will be completely free of dependence on anyone in either military or civilian engine tech. This is so important for China that they would even subsidise their airlines to use less efficient Chinese engines.


Those engineers are just being modest, dont take their words too seriously.



UKBengali said:


> Using a newer engines saves on fuel costs. Having more weight capacity saves on flights(pack in more vehicles) which again reduces cost.
> 
> Also China is determined to build up it's engine tech as soon as possible and would use WS-20 if it was ready.


Yes, it saves fuel but at the expense of additional mechanics, tools, machine and another totally different production line which makes it more expensive in terms of logistics and support. The additonal payload can ferry another Type99A mbt under one Y-20? No.

Now, you just need one WS-18 production line, standardise all your mechanics training, all the same tools to maintain the same type of engine. All the same spare to maintain one type of engine.

The same WS-18 can be used on IL-76, H-6K and Y-20. I dont think we need rocket scientist to explain that.

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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> WS-20 is for enlarged version of Y-20F
> 
> 
> 
> Those engineers are just being modest, dont take their words too seriously.




No it looks like China may not even meet the 2040 target now to catch up with US.

The WS-15 is not likely to be installed on J-20 before 2025 and so the same T/W ratio but without the reliability or the lifespan of the 20 year older US engine in F-22.





Beast said:


> Yes, it saves fuel but at the expense of additional mechanics, tools, machine and another totally different production line which makes it more expensive in terms of logistics and support. The additonal payload can ferry another Type99A mbt under one Y-20? No.
> 
> Now, you just need one WS-18 production line, standardise all your mechanics training, all the same tools to maintain the same type of engine. All the same spare to maintain one type of engine.
> 
> The same WS-18 can be used on IL-76, H-6K and Y-20. I dont think we need rocket scientist to explain that.





I meant pack a tank and also another lighter vehicle into the WS-20 Y-20.

It would be cheaper to be able to pack two vehicles like a tank and another vehicle into a WS-20 Y-20 than a single tank into the current Y-20.

The extra cost of maintaining two engines would be made up with the need for less fuel and packing more vehicles into one Y-20.

Anyway, China does not care about cost of engines as it is desperate for independence as soon as possible.


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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> I meant pack a tank and also another lighter vehicle into the WS-20 Y-20.
> 
> It would be cheaper to be able to pack two vehicles like a tank and another vehicle into a WS-20 Y-20 than a single tank into the current Y-20.
> 
> The extra cost of maintaining two engines would be made up with the need for less fuel and packing more vehicles into one Y-20
> 
> Anyway, China does not care about cost of engines as it is desperate for independence as soon as possible.



Y-20 with WS-18(Payload 56tons) --- One Type99A mbt 54 tons.

Y-20 with WS-20(Payload 65- 66 tons) --- One Type99A mbt 54tons and left with additional 12tons.

What kind of additional armour vehicle do you want to ferry of 12tons payload?

I dont see much strategic value with such small upgrade at expense of increase logistic, training, production line and cost.



UKBengali said:


> No it looks like China may not even meet the 2040 target now to catch up with US.



We are not far away by too much.















https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-aero-engine-information-thread.300409/page-71


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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> Y-20 with WS-18(Payload 56tons) --- One Type99A mbt 54 tons.
> 
> Y-20 with WS-20(Payload 65- 66 tons) --- One Type99A mbt 54tons and left with additional 12tons.
> 
> What kind of additional armour vehicle do you want to ferry of 12tons payload?
> 
> I dont see much strategic value with such small upgrade at expense of increase logistic, training, production line and cost.
> 
> 
> 
> We are not far away by too much.




A truck of some tons can be put in to save costs.

You also forget that China would be wasting valuable time by not using the WS-20 if it is ready.

There is no way that China would not use the WS-20 if available as it can only get better at engine tech by actually putting them into real planes. Any savings, which wont exist anyway, would be wasted by holding back Chinese engine tech progress.

None of the leading engine nations do what you suggest that China is doing with WS-20 as it would hamper their advance in this critical technology.



Beast said:


> We are not far away by too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-aero-engine-information-thread.300409/page-71




Getting the T/W ratio is not the only characteristic about engine tech.

Try getting to the reliability and lifespan of US/UK engines. Russia never came close during the cold war even though it matched the T/W ratio by 1990.


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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> A truck of some tons can be put in to save costs.
> 
> You also forget that China would be wasting valuable time by not using the WS-20 if it is ready.
> 
> There is no way that China would not use the WS-20 if available as it can only get better at engine tech by actually putting them into real planes. Any savings, which wont exist anyway, would be wasted by holding back Chinese engine tech progress.
> 
> None of the leading engine nations do what you suggest that China is doing with WS-20 as it would hamper their advance in this critical technology.


How do you know they are not keep testing it? It is not put into PLAAF used doesnt mean its idle around. The test bed IL-76 so far is not to be seen,I am sure its testing out the lifespan of WS-20 even until now. It will be ready when needed and extensive reliability and full aspect will be tested out.



UKBengali said:


> A truck of some tons can be put in to save costs.
> 
> You also forget that China would be wasting valuable time by not using the WS-20 if it is ready.
> 
> There is no way that China would not use the WS-20 if available as it can only get better at engine tech by actually putting them into real planes. Any savings, which wont exist anyway, would be wasted by holding back Chinese engine tech progress.
> 
> None of the leading engine nations do what you suggest that China is doing with WS-20 as it would hamper their advance in this critical technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting the T/W ratio is not the only characteristic about engine tech.
> 
> Try getting to the reliability and lifespan of US/UK engines. Russia never came close during the cold war even though it matched the T/W ratio by 1990.



I dont see lifespan too much of a issue. If we sell the engine at less than half the price of western counterparts but with half the lifespan of western one. Its still a commercial feasible. Same as for military.

Look at the American space shuttle. Reusable but very expensive to maintain. Soyuz is disposable but is even cheaper, reliable to use compare to longer lifespan of US Columbia space shuttle.


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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> How do you know they are not keep testing it? It is not put into PLAAF used doesnt mean its idle around. The test bed IL-76 so far is not to be seen,I am sure its testing out the lifespan of WS-20 even until now. It will be ready when needed and extensive reliability and full aspect will be tested out.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont see lifespan too much of a issue. If we sell the engine at less than half the price of western counterparts but with half the lifespan of western one. Its still a commercial feasible. Same as for military.
> 
> Look at the American space shuttle. Reusable but very expensive to maintain. Soyuz is disposable but is even cheaper, reliable to use compare to longer lifespan of US Columbia space shuttle.




1. Not the same. You cannot make anywhere near the same progress by testing than having the engine in service.

2. Why do you think that Russians airlines flopped? Hint the engines were nowhere near as good as western ones.


OK, you are entitled to your view but logically I do not see the sense in it.


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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> 1. Not the same. You cannot make anywhere near the same progress by testing than having the engine in service.
> 
> 2. Why do you think that Russians airlines flopped? Hint the engines were nowhere near as good as western ones.
> 
> 
> OK, you are entitled to your view but logically I do not see the sense in it.



Russian commercial industries flopped,due to lot of factors. Despite having a very successful military sector. I will say they are currently even behind China in commercial section. They do have a lot of commercial planes but none meet FAA or non competitive in commercial market. Its not easy to design FAA standard commercial plane while being competitive at the same time. We do have a huge aviation market with many state owned airline to make any product a success if we want to. This is the luxury Russian do not have 

This is a very good video explained C919, unfortunately, it is in Chinese only. But its very good info for those who understand Chinese.

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## lcloo

From what I gathered,

One WS-20 was first flight tested on an IL-76 from 2014, and completed on 2017. And thereafter the engine was dismantled from the aircraft for analysis.








Then 4 units of WS-20 were fitted to an IL-76 for further testing in unknown timeline.












Test of WS-20 started on Y20 in February 2019, indicating final testing phase of WS-20.

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## UKBengali

lcloo said:


> From what I gathered,
> 
> One WS-20 was first flight tested on an IL-76 from 2014, and completed on 2017. And thereafter the engine was dismantled from the aircraft for analysis.
> View attachment 637172
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then 4 units of WS-20 were fitted to an IL-76 for further testing in unknown timeline.
> View attachment 637173
> 
> 
> View attachment 637175
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test of WS-20 started on Y20 in February 2019, indicating final testing phase of WS-20.
> View attachment 637178




Pretty much proves my point that the engine is progressing slow and steady.
I do not expect Y-20s to be flying with WS-20 engines before 2025 now.

The deadline for the CJ-1000A engine on the C919 has been pushed back from the initial 2023 to 2028-2030. 

Engines are extremely complex and take a lot of trial and error to get right.


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## laser911

lcloo said:


> From what I gathered,
> 
> One WS-20 was first flight tested on an IL-76 from 2014, and completed on 2017. And thereafter the engine was dismantled from the aircraft for analysis.
> View attachment 637172
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then 4 units of WS-20 were fitted to an IL-76 for further testing in unknown timeline.
> View attachment 637173
> 
> 
> View attachment 637175
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test of WS-20 started on Y20 in February 2019, indicating final testing phase of WS-20.
> View attachment 637178


 For the last image, all 4 engines look the same to me. Maybe the dark one is WS18.


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> From what I gathered,
> 
> One WS-20 was first flight tested on an IL-76 from 2014, and completed on 2017. And thereafter the engine was dismantled from the aircraft for analysis.
> View attachment 637172
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then 4 units of WS-20 were fitted to an IL-76 for further testing in unknown timeline.
> View attachment 637173
> 
> 
> View attachment 637175
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test of WS-20 started on Y20 in February 2019, indicating final testing phase of WS-20.
> View attachment 637178



I'm not sure, since I thought it was a common agreement that so far no IL-76 flew with four WS-20 and that particular image showed it with the engine cowlings open. The same with the light grey Y-20 with the single darker engine.

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## lcloo

Y20 tanker

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## Scorpiooo

lcloo said:


> Y20 tanker
> 
> View attachment 637256

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## vi-va

Scorpiooo said:


> View attachment 637301
> View attachment 637302





lcloo said:


> Y20 tanker
> 
> View attachment 637256


I see 2 probe-and-drogue refueling like IL-76 and 1 Flying boom like KC-135 Stratotanker, KC-10 Extender, KC-46 Pegasus.

Is it possible Y-20 can have both? That's huge bonus.


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## Beast

viva_zhao said:


> I see 2 probe-and-drogue refueling like IL-76 and 1 Flying boom like KC-135 Stratotanker, KC-10 Extender, KC-46 Pegasus.
> 
> Is it possible Y-20 can have both? That's huge bonus.


Why not? Y-20 is a huge plane but I am not sure if solid boom is added and that mean it cannot fulfil the role of transport plane but pure tanker only.

CJ-130 can act both as tanker and transport with fuel tank inside the cargo bay remove. But It cannot refuel plane using the soft boom method only.


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## Deino

viva_zhao said:


> *I see 2 probe-and-drogue refueling* ... *and 1 Flying boom ...*



Where do you see a *"flying boom" ?*

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Where do you see a *"flying boom" ?*


The white color rod sticking out at the bottom.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> The white color rod sticking out at the bottom.




I don't think it is a boom, since it would be mounted much too close to the bottom f the aircraft.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> I don't think it is a boom, since it would be mounted much too close to the bottom f the aircraft.


It maybe a special type of solid boom. You can see it's very obvious sticking out there of the 3 photo.


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## laser911

Beast said:


> It maybe a special type of solid boom. You can see it's very obvious sticking out there of the 3 photo.


Don't think it will be the solid boom, completely wrong position.

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## vi-va

US KC-135 Stratotanker, KC-10 Extender, KC-46 Pegasus are tanker only. Y-20 may be tanker as well as transporter.
In this case, the back door is kept. So Y-20 need another position to mount the flying boom.

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## lcloo

Whatever that is, I am hoping for clear picture.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Whatever that is, I am hoping for clear picture.
> 
> View attachment 637635




Indeed ... also look at the wingtips:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267782555027288069

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## lcloo

Comparing with Armée de l'Air (French Air Force) KC-135.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Whatever that is, I am hoping for clear picture.
> 
> View attachment 637635




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269310227184119808

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## Beast

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269310227184119808


That means it will be a pure tanker only. The back door ramp will be eliminated.

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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## lcloo

Y20 in Moscow sending PLA participants for Russian military parade. The longest flight distance by Y20 thus far.

China bought around 28 IL-76 from Russia, mostly second hand refurbished planes. Of which 10 are said from Ex-USSR (which collapsed in 1991) with at least 30 years service time. Replacement of IL-76 by Y20 will be accelerating.

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272110080041709568

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## samsara

Beautiful shots of the Y-20A in Moscow, from Vasily Kuznetsov @RuAviaPhotog:














__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1272124345293377536

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273597305602682880

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## Ali_Baba

Has there been any indication of what the unit cost of the Y-20 is?

Hopefully when more engine options are available, PAF and PAA can take a look.


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## lcloo

Y20 showed its short landing capability.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274173189887672320

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## samsara

Some beautiful shots of Xi'an Y-20

Photo source: Weibo Qiuqiu Q30
图片来源微博秋秋Q30











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274339850771066880


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## Deino

samsara said:


> Some beautiful shots of Xi'an Y-20
> View attachment 643279




Funny ... i just thought it might be the first Y-20A in full grey low-visibility markings until I noticed it is a black&white image only.

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## JSCh

From weibo, said to be taken yesterday on the way returning from Moscow. Bogda peak is part of Tian Shan(Heavenly mountain) range in XinJiang.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276554184255471617

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276554184255471617


I think WS-15 is the most likely engine here ... the question is when was this image taken? It doesn't really make sense for it to be any other engine


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## samsara

*Some beautiful shots of Xi'an Y-20*
*via lqy*

参加红场阅兵的中国人民解放军仪仗大队105名官兵乘运20回国
_105 officers and soldiers of the honor guard brigade of the PLA, who participated in the Red Square parade, returned home by Y-20_




















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276384100765454337

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## Deino

Given its individual bort number, the 12th Y-20A - #PLAAF serial number 11152 - assigned to the 4th Transport Division based at Chengdu/Qionglai has been spotted.

As such altogether 12 Y-20As from 13 nos. (no. 11051 to 11153 - all but 11054) within this unit have been confirmed.

(Image by @Unbeliverpool via Jetphotos)

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## PeacefulWar

Deino said:


> Given its individual bort number, the 12th Y-20A - #PLAAF serial number 11152 - assigned to the 4th Transport Division based at Chengdu/Qionglai has been spotted.
> 
> As such altogether 12 Y-20As from 13 nos. (no. 11051 to 11153 - all but 11054) within this unit have been confirmed.
> 
> (Image by @Unbeliverpool via Jetphotos)
> 
> View attachment 645538


I have a impression that Y-20's production speed is much much faster than J-20.


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## Deino

PeacefulWar said:


> I have a impression that Y-20's production speed is much much faster than J-20.




Seems indeed to be so but (at least my hope is that) such huge transports are a bit harder to hide than a smaller stealth fighter.

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## Figaro

PeacefulWar said:


> I have a impression that Y-20's production speed is much much faster than J-20.


I highly doubt it ... J-20 is much more important right now, the PLAAF knows there is an urgent need to combat the F-35 in the Pacific. Just because we don't have numbers doesn't mean they don't exist.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> I highly doubt it ... J-20 is much more important right now, the PLAAF knows there is an urgent need to combat the F-35 in the Pacific. Just because we don't have numbers doesn't mean they don't exist.




That's for sure and therefore we both only said "it seems " and we have the "impression" that. But still the question remains: 

Where are all these WS-10B/C-powered J-10Cs and J-20As?


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## zhxy

J-20 is very expensive and has not proven effective.
Y-20 versatile, it supports military and civilian.



PeacefulWar said:


> I have a impression that Y-20's production speed is much much faster than J-20.


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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> J-20 is very expensive and has not proven effective.
> Y-20 versatile, it supports military and civilian.


How does the J-20 have to prove its effective? By going to war with another country? Come on ...

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## zhxy

Figaro said:


> How does the J-20 have to prove its effective? By going to war with another country? Come on ...



F-117 was stealthy and invincible before it was shot down

Y-20, no one doubts its capabilities

J-20, stealthy or not. Stealth level. The results are not important. Do not put all eggs in one basket.


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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> F-117 was stealthy and invincible before it was shot down
> 
> Y-20, no one doubts its capabilities
> 
> J-20, stealthy or not. Stealth level. The results are not important. Do not put all eggs in one basket.


Just because the J-20 hasn't proven itself in combat does not mean they shouldn't produce it ... the PLAAF needs both the J-20 and the Y-20. But obviously more J-20 units will be built because they are front line fighters while the Y-20 is a transport aircraft (serves entirely different purpose).

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## PeacefulWar

zhxy said:


> F-117 was stealthy and invincible before it was shot down
> 
> Y-20, no one doubts its capabilities
> 
> J-20, stealthy or not. Stealth level. The results are not important. Do not put all eggs in one basket.


Hmm, doesn't make much sense because PLAAF can test it against it's own fighter/AWACS/H9/S400 to test its effectiveness before entering into service.
This works for all other systems in all countries in the same way.



Figaro said:


> Just because the J-20 hasn't proven itself in combat does not mean they shouldn't produce it ... the PLAAF needs both the J-20 and the Y-20. But obviously more J-20 units will be built because they are front line fighters while the Y-20 is a transport aircraft (serves entirely different purpose).


Probably some key parts can't be produced in fast pace yet.
Or just as Deino mentioned, it's just hard to spot compare to Y20 hence the wrong impression.

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## zhxy

Figaro said:


> J*ust because the J-20 hasn't proven itself in combat does not mean they shouldn't produce it *... the PLAAF needs both the J-20 and the Y-20. But obviously more J-20 units will be built because they are front line fighters while the *Y-20 is a transport aircraft* (serves entirely different purpose).



1. I never said "China should not produce J-20". Should produce or not, quantity is more or less. That is the Chinese government's decision.

2. Y-20 can be used in civilian and military.




PeacefulWar said:


> Hmm, doesn't make much sense because* PLAAF can test it against it's own fighter/AWACS/H9/S400 *to test its effectiveness before entering into service.
> This works for all other systems in all countries in the same way.



Everyone knows that

The United States tested the F-117 with its radar system before putting it into battle. F-22, F-35, B-2, B-21 are all tested in the same way.

The test was successful, so they built more and pushed into battle

Before the war, all believed absolutely
In real war, no one knows.




zhxy said:


> F-117 was stealthy and invincible before it was shot down
> 
> Y-20, no one doubts its capabilities
> 
> J-20, stealthy or not. Stealth level. The results are not important. *Do not put all eggs in one basket*.


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## PeacefulWar

zhxy said:


> 1. I never said "China should not produce J-20". Should produce or not, quantity is more or less. That is the Chinese government's decision.
> 
> 2. Y-20 can be used in civilian and military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone knows that
> 
> The United States tested the F-117 with its radar system before putting it into battle. F-22, F-35, B-2, B-21 are all tested in the same way.
> 
> The test was successful, so they built more and pushed into battle
> 
> Before the war, all believed absolutely
> In real war, no one knows.





zhxy said:


> 1. I never said "China should not produce J-20". Should produce or not, quantity is more or less. That is the Chinese government's decision.
> 
> 2. Y-20 can be used in civilian and military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone knows that
> 
> The United States tested the F-117 with its radar system before putting it into battle. F-22, F-35, B-2, B-21 are all tested in the same way.
> 
> The test was successful, so they built more and pushed into battle
> 
> Before the war, all believed absolutely
> In real war, no one knows.


I'm not very sure if I get your point correctly.
If you meant that PLAAF is doing what they had done for the J-10: "build a batch(less then 50 for first batch), wait for feedbacks from frontier squadrons, improve it base on these feedbacks" 
Then I think it's possible.
This strategy is widely adopted in PLA. For example: PLAN's Type 052


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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 647241
> View attachment 647242
> View attachment 647243
> View attachment 647244
> 
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin




4th or 13th Transport Division?


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## Figaro

*China's Yun-20 large transport aircraft holds great potential*
(China Military Online) 15:54, July 01, 2020

BEIJING, June 30 -- Since the outbreak of the COVID-19 epidemic, China's domestically developed Yun-20 large transport aircraft has carried out missions abroad for many times, successively delivering anti-epidemic supplies to Pakistan, Thailand and other countries. Recently, it made its maiden flight to Russia to transport the PLA Guard of Honor to participate in the military parade staged in Moscow's Red Square. Military expert Chen Hong said that in the future, the Yun-20 transport aircraft is sure to significantly improve the combat capability of the PLA troops.

*A solid backing to the PLA Air Force*

In the modern warfare with wider war zones and faster war pace, countries all over the world are trying to strengthen the quick response and long-range delivery capabilities of their troops, to quickly transport their troops and weapons to areas in urgent need and save time for the reinforcement of follow-up troops. Under this situation, the armed forces of all countries are eager to equip large-scale heavy-duty transport aircraft.

According to the information from Tang Changhong, chief designer of the Yun-20, the maximum take-off weight of the aircraft is 220 tons, and the maximum loading capacity is 66 tons.

"To build up a modern PLA Air Force with strong combat capability, it is quite necessary to equip large transport aircraft like Yun-20, the speed of which is more than three times that of high-speed rail trains and more than 20 times that of marine transportation. It can get the whole combat units rallied in the shortest time, greatly contributing to the rapid deployment of troops and enhancing combat capability", said Chen Hong.

*It still holds great development potential*

"The Yun-20 transport aircraft is quite promising for future development." According to Chen Hong's introduction, the Yun-20 transport aircraft is currently powered by Russian D-30KP-2 engines, which is likely to be replaced by WS-20, the domestically developed new-generation large-scale jet engine, in the future. *It can provide more than 15 tons of thrust.*

_*"In recent years, China's fighter engine R&D technology has achieved leapfrog development, breaking through the unimaginable bottlenecks. New engines like WS-20 will also be used to equip China's large military transport aircraft in the near future and play a more prominent role", added Chen Hong.*_

In addition, the Yun-20 can also be adapted as an aerial tanker or an antisubmarine aircraft. With a payload of up to 66 tons, it can become an aerial gas station, which can cooperate with fighters skillfully in aerial refueling operations. As an antisubmarine aircraft, it can carry a variety of light and heavy antisubmarine equipment. With its advantages of heavy weight, long endurance and long range, its performance will be more powerful.

At present, China's Air Force is in urgent need of Yun-20 transport aircraft. Chen Hong said that in view of China's current goal of building up a strategic air force, several hundred Yun-20s are needed at least. "It marks a magnificent progress in the history of China's Air Force. I believe there will be even more advanced aircraft to equip China's Air Force in the future", added Chen.

*http://en.people.cn/n3/2020/0701/c90000-9705950.html*

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## samsara

Figaro said:


> *China's Yun-20 large transport aircraft holds great potential*
> (China Military Online) 15:54, July 01, 2020
> 
> BEIJING, June 30 -- Since the outbreak of the COVID-19 epidemic, China's domestically developed Yun-20 large transport aircraft has carried out missions abroad for many times, successively delivering anti-epidemic supplies to Pakistan, Thailand and other countries. Recently, it made its maiden flight to Russia to transport the PLA Guard of Honor to participate in the military parade staged in Moscow's Red Square. Military expert Chen Hong said that in the future, the Yun-20 transport aircraft is sure to significantly improve the combat capability of the PLA troops.
> 
> *A solid backing to the PLA Air Force*
> 
> In the modern warfare with wider war zones and faster war pace, countries all over the world are trying to strengthen the quick response and long-range delivery capabilities of their troops, to quickly transport their troops and weapons to areas in urgent need and save time for the reinforcement of follow-up troops. Under this situation, the armed forces of all countries are eager to equip large-scale heavy-duty transport aircraft.
> 
> According to the information from Tang Changhong, chief designer of the Yun-20, the maximum take-off weight of the aircraft is 220 tons, and the maximum loading capacity is 66 tons.
> 
> "To build up a modern PLA Air Force with strong combat capability, it is quite necessary to equip large transport aircraft like Yun-20, the speed of which is more than three times that of high-speed rail trains and more than 20 times that of marine transportation. It can get the whole combat units rallied in the shortest time, greatly contributing to the rapid deployment of troops and enhancing combat capability", said Chen Hong.
> 
> *It still holds great development potential*
> 
> "The Yun-20 transport aircraft is quite promising for future development." According to Chen Hong's introduction, the Yun-20 transport aircraft is currently powered by Russian D-30KP-2 engines, which is likely to be replaced by WS-20, the domestically developed new-generation large-scale jet engine, in the future. *It can provide more than 15 tons of thrust.*
> 
> "In recent years, China's fighter engine R&D technology has achieved leapfrog development, breaking through the unimaginable bottlenecks. New engines like WS-20 will also be used to equip China's large military transport aircraft in the near future and play a more prominent role", added Chen Hong.
> 
> In addition, the Yun-20 can also be adapted as an aerial tanker or an antisubmarine aircraft. With a payload of up to 66 tons, it can become an aerial gas station, which can cooperate with fighters skillfully in aerial refueling operations. As an antisubmarine aircraft, it can carry a variety of light and heavy antisubmarine equipment. With its advantages of heavy weight, long endurance and long range, its performance will be more powerful.
> 
> At present, China's Air Force is in urgent need of Yun-20 transport aircraft. Chen Hong said that in view of China's current goal of building up a strategic air force, several hundred Yun-20s are needed at least. "It marks a magnificent progress in the history of China's Air Force. I believe there will be even more advanced aircraft to equip China's Air Force in the future", added Chen.
> 
> *http://en.people.cn/n3/2020/0701/c90000-9705950.html*


This paragraph should be put in BOLD and with COLOUR for an all-out highlight — and let one believe following his own faith as China won't provide all the hard proofs as many may demand! 

_ "In recent years, China's fighter engine R&D technology has achieved *leapfrog development*, breaking through the unimaginable bottlenecks. New engines like WS-20 will also be used to equip China's large military transport aircraft in the near future and play a more prominent role", added Chen Hong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_
And some one should inform the webmaster at the “China Military” website that he needs to provide the better readability for use through the mobile devices such as mobile phone. The current format there is not pleasant for reading! But the People's Daily website has much better readibility! 

Just compare the website readibility of above and below links to see on your own! 

_China's Yun-20 large transport aircraft holds great potential_
http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2020-06/30/content_9843756.htm

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276554184255471617


Have we still not come to any conclusion on what type of engine this is?


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282241381444882433


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## LKJ86

JSCh said:


> From weibo, said to be taken yesterday on the way returning from Moscow. Bogda peak is part of Tian Shan(Heavenly mountain) range in XinJiang.







Via @zhangmx969 from Weibo

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284383975750991872

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## Kingslayerr

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284383975750991872


I see this as the replacement of pakistans heavy weight lifter. How many Y20s has been delivered?

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## SD 10

Kingslayerr said:


> I see this as the replacement of pakistans heavy weight lifter. How many Y20s has been delivered?


but will china export it?


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## Figaro

SD 10 said:


> but will china export it?


I'm sure China will export it ... the Y-20 doesn't hold any strategic technology like the J-20.



Kingslayerr said:


> I see this as the replacement of pakistans heavy weight lifter. How many Y20s has been delivered?


At least 17 ... http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/gallery-i.html#Y-20. Most likely a couple of times more.

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## obj 705A

Figaro said:


> I'm sure China will export it ... the Y-20 doesn't hold any strategic technology like the J-20.



Personally I highly doubt that any Y-20 will be exported to anyone including Pakistan anytime soon.
Remember China wants to have a total of more than a 1000 of all the Y-20 variants.

"I can't tell you the exact time planned for delivery, but ... it will be carried out very soon," Zhu Qian, head of Aviation Industry Corp of China's Large Aircraft Development Office, said at a technology exhibition in Beijing.

"More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," he said, adding that the figure was calculated based on the experience of the United States and Russia. Both countries have used heavy-lifting transport aircraft for years.

Zhu said the military and many civilian sectors will benefit greatly from delivery of the Y-20.

http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-06/03/content_25600139.htm

I don't know what is China's production capacity of the Y-20 but I highly doubt that it's currently anywhere near enough to reach that number several years from now.


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## Figaro

obj 705A said:


> Personally I highly doubt that any Y-20 will be exported to anyone including Pakistan anytime soon.
> Remember China wants to have a total of more than a 1000 of all the Y-20 variants.
> 
> "I can't tell you the exact time planned for delivery, but ... it will be carried out very soon," Zhu Qian, head of Aviation Industry Corp of China's Large Aircraft Development Office, said at a technology exhibition in Beijing.
> 
> "More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," he said, adding that the figure was calculated based on the experience of the United States and Russia. Both countries have used heavy-lifting transport aircraft for years.
> 
> Zhu said the military and many civilian sectors will benefit greatly from delivery of the Y-20.
> 
> http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-06/03/content_25600139.htm
> 
> I don't know what is China's production capacity of the Y-20 but I highly doubt that it's currently anywhere near enough to reach that number several years from now.


I don't think production capacity is at all an issue with the Y-20 ... I think right now the production may not be very high because the PLAAF wants to replace the WS-18s with the WS-20. Either way, an export variant will feature the WS-20.

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## Beast

obj 705A said:


> Personally I highly doubt that any Y-20 will be exported to anyone including Pakistan anytime soon.
> Remember China wants to have a total of more than a 1000 of all the Y-20 variants.
> 
> "I can't tell you the exact time planned for delivery, but ... it will be carried out very soon," Zhu Qian, head of Aviation Industry Corp of China's Large Aircraft Development Office, said at a technology exhibition in Beijing.
> 
> "More than 1,000 Y-20s will be needed," he said, adding that the figure was calculated based on the experience of the United States and Russia. Both countries have used heavy-lifting transport aircraft for years.
> 
> Zhu said the military and many civilian sectors will benefit greatly from delivery of the Y-20.
> 
> http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-06/03/content_25600139.htm
> 
> I don't know what is China's production capacity of the Y-20 but I highly doubt that it's currently anywhere near enough to reach that number several years from now.


The 1000 target Includes export, commercial freight but mostly a exaggerate number. If PLAAF has 33 Y-20 now. It can easily beat any strategic lifting nation besides US and Russia.

Not even UK and France combined lifter can beat the Chinese. We shall all remember PLAAF has estimated at least 50-60 Y-8/Y-9 in it's current inventory. Each of it can lift 20-25tons cargo.

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## obj 705A

Beast said:


> mostly a exaggerate number.



Not exaggerated at all, that was not Minnie Chan that said "more than 1000 will be needed", that was the head of AVIC who said that, also he didn't include exports in this number:
"The manager expects that China will need at least 1,000 of the huge aircraft".

Frankly I will trust the words of the head of AVIC over the words of any one else including in this forum any day.
Now obviously as AVIC have said that number also includes civilian variants of the Y-20 but remember if needed these civilian transporters can be used to transport military cargo.



Beast said:


> Not even UK and France combined lifter can beat the Chinese.



Honestly the UK and France are irrelevant , note that AVIC only compared to what the US & Russia have, that is what they are looking up to according to AVIC, I don't know what is the total lifting capacity of Russia, but the US military has a total of 900 aerial refuelers & large cargo transporters, I didn't include the civilian transporters of the US (if they have them).

Also remember since China is the number one trading nation , that means they need hundreds cargo transporters for civilian purposes, also several years from now some of the older cargo airplanes will have to be replaced by newer ones, it makes sense to replace any old airplane with the Y-20. So short term I don't think China will export it in any significant numbers , at best they would export maybe 10 or less, that is just a guess.

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## obj 705A

So I did some quick googling to find out what is the size of China's air cargo fleet, "This statistic shows the size of air cargo freighters fleet in China in 2017 [China has 180 freighters according to this website in 2017] with a forecast for 2037. By 2037, China plans to have around 740 freighters in its cargo airplane fleet".

https://www.statista.com/statistics/913987/china-air-cargo-freighter-fleet-size/

I don't know how reliable this website is but since China is #1 trading it makes sense for to have this much civilian cargo.
Eventually these will need replacement.

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## Deino

obj 705A said:


> Not exaggerated at all, that was not Minnie Chan that said "more than 1000 will be needed", that was the head of AVIC who said that, also he didn't include exports in this number:
> "The manager expects that China will need at least 1,000 of the huge aircraft".
> 
> ....



I know once again my concern are not well received but IMO 1000 is way overestimated and even if the head of AVIC is more knowledgeable than me, but he also gas a duty to express faith and optimism. 

Just to set this number in context... not even the Ilyushin Il-76 an undeniable successful project did not reach these numbers.

As such I indeed expect a few hundreds, but still - at best - in the lower 200-numbers.
Anyway, we'll see.

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## obj 705A

Deino said:


> I know once again my concern are not well received but IMO 1000 is way overestimated and even if the head of AVIC is more knowledgeable than me, but he also gas a duty to express faith and optimism.
> 
> Just to set this number in context... not even the Ilyushin Il-76 an undeniable successful project did not reach these numbers.
> 
> As such I indeed expect a few hundreds, but still - at best - in the lower 200-numbers.
> Anyway, we'll see.


The Russians/Soviets produced a total of 960 Il-76 over the course of several years, I don't know how many of these were used by Russia (both civilian and military) but if I'm not mistaken most of the Il-76 were owned by the Russians and a smaller number for export.

Y-20 will be far much more successful than the Il-76 why? Because the Y-20 (including civilian variant) will be operated by a far much bigger trading nation (that is China) than the USSR ever was let alone Russia, over the course of several decades from now China will need hundreds upon hundreds of civilian air freighters not just to transport cargo but also to replace older ones, I suppose you didn't see my last post before you commented because my previous post was just 1 minute earlier than yours.. China may acquire up to 740 civilian cargo airplanes by 2037, why buy them from Boeing when they can buy the Y-20?

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## lcloo

My interpretation of the given statement of 1,000 Y20s are total production over the lifeline of over several decades, possibly from 30 to 50 years, with later variants replacing early variants over times. This figure would include all variants from transport, tankers and others.

Average annual production could be around 2 to 3 dozens for period of several decades.

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## Beast

obj 705A said:


> Honestly the UK and France are irrelevant , note that AVIC only compared to what the US & Russia have, that is what they are looking up to according to AVIC, I don't know what is the total lifting capacity of Russia, but the US military has a total of 900 aerial refuelers & large cargo transporters, I didn't include the civilian transporters of the US (if they have them).



Russia has more than few dozen of An-124, AN-22, their payload outload even the Y-20. Not to mention hundred of IL-76 and modernized IL-476. What they lack will be equivalent to China Y-8F and Y-9 which can save more fuel and more economical if you are lifting only less than 20 tons of cargo.

In fact, Russia continent lifting capacity may even outstrip the USAF.

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## Figaro

Y-20U

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284383975750991872



Haha, my observation had a point.



vi-va said:


> I see 2 probe-and-drogue refueling like IL-76 and 1 Flying boom like KC-135 Stratotanker, KC-10 Extender, KC-46 Pegasus.
> 
> Is it possible Y-20 can have both? That's huge bonus.

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业一飞院 from Weixin

----------------------

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## Deino

With Y-20A 11155 - aka no. 15 - assigned to the 12th Air Regiment, 4th Transport Division at Chengdu/Qionglai the so far highest individual number was spotted. 

(Image via @秋秋Q30 from Weibo)

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## LKJ86

Via @摇篮里的航海家 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

Is there any news on the Y-20 AWAC variant?


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## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292730487102832641

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin

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## Figaro

A very important development many of us missed (at least I did). It is confirmed, at least for a year and a half, that the WS-20 has been equipped on the Y-20. More than likely, current Y-20 production models are being produced with the WS-20 engines. Sometimes, official confirmation is just as good as pictorial confirmation . 




https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j0QFEO9hfqQOYlvw3AzjOg

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## lcloo

Waiting for the real one to appear.

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## Ultima Thule

lcloo said:


> Waiting for the real one to appear.
> 
> View attachment 660206


????


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## Figaro

Ultima Thule said:


> ????


He is talking about waiting to see a picture of the real Y-20 with WS-20 ... instead of the model.

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## Beast



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## SD 10

Beast said:


>


is it for export or not?


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## vi-va

SD 10 said:


> is it for export or not?


why not. wait for WS-20 version.

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## Khan vilatey

Can we buy y-20s to replace our older c-130s and standardize on this platform for aerial refueling ( if available) , heavy transport and Awacs platform (when available) ?

kv

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## LKJ86

Khan vilatey said:


> for aerial refueling ( if available)


There is Y-20U already.

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## Figaro

Khan vilatey said:


> Can we buy y-20s to replace our older c-130s and standardize on this platform for aerial refueling ( if available) , heavy transport and Awacs platform (when available) ?
> 
> kv



When the WS-20 is mass produced on the Y-20s
When the Y-20U and the Y-20 AWAC variant enter mass production
The PLAAF has enough of these platforms (since domestic use takes precedence over export)

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## vi-va

Figaro said:


> When the WS-20 is mass produced on the Y-20s
> When the Y-20U and the Y-20 AWAC variant enter mass production
> The PLAAF has enough of these platforms (since domestic use takes precedence over export)


ws-20 may be replaced by cj-1000a I think.


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## Figaro

vi-va said:


> ws-20 may be replaced by cj-1000a I think.


I doubt it ... the WS-20 is a military high bypass ratio engine while the CJ-1000A is for civilian airliners. The two serve different purposes and in all likelihood use similar technology.

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## vi-va

Figaro said:


> I doubt it ... the WS-20 is a military high bypass ratio engine while the CJ-1000A is for civilian airliners. The two serve different purposes and in all likelihood use similar technology.


WS-20 and CJ-1000A are damn the same, high-bypass, same thrust. Military transport aircraft and civilian need the same damn engine.





*Boeing 757*
























*CJ-1000A*


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## Khan vilatey

vi-va said:


> WS-20 and CJ-1000A are damn the same, high-bypass, same thrust. Military transport aircraft and civilian need the same damn engine.
> View attachment 660579
> 
> 
> *Boeing 757*
> View attachment 660587
> 
> View attachment 660580
> 
> 
> View attachment 660581
> 
> 
> View attachment 660585
> 
> 
> *CJ-1000A*
> View attachment 660584



military technology and Engines have harder components like higher heat and cold tolerance etc. hence more expensive 

kv


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## vi-va

Khan vilatey said:


> military technology and Engines have harder components like higher heat and cold tolerance etc. hence more expensive
> 
> kv


not true on engine. civilian aircraft engine stability, readiness, durability, safety, environmental suitability requirement is higher actually.
You can lose 1 or 2 aircraft in military annually, you can still run your airforce.
If you lose 1 or 2 aircraft like boeing 737 MAX annually due to design defect, your business is cold dead for sure. No one can save your business, not US, or retarded Trump.

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## Figaro

vi-va said:


> WS-20 and CJ-1000A are damn the same, high-bypass, same thrust. Military transport aircraft and civilian need the same damn engine.
> View attachment 660579
> 
> 
> *Boeing 757*
> View attachment 660587
> 
> View attachment 660588
> 
> 
> View attachment 660580
> 
> 
> View attachment 660581
> 
> 
> View attachment 660585
> 
> 
> *CJ-1000A*
> View attachment 660584


CJ-1000A still has a long way to go ... currently it is only in demonstator/protoype stage. For immediate mass production WS-20 is needed. By the time the CJ-1000A is ready for commercial use, there will likely be a WS-20 variant whose reliability is already on par. And no the WS-20 is not the same as the CJ-1000A. Otherwise why would the latter be so behind in testing. Just because they are both high bypass ratio engines does not mean they are the same. IIRC, the WS-20 has a thrust of over 15 tonnes, which is higher than that of the CJ-1000A.


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## vi-va

Figaro said:


> CJ-1000A still has a long way to go ... currently it is only in demonstator/protoype stage. For immediate mass production WS-20 is needed. By the time the CJ-1000A is ready for commercial use, there will likely be a WS-20 variant whose reliability is already on par. And no the WS-20 is not the same as the CJ-1000A. Otherwise why would the latter be so behind in testing. Just because they are both high bypass ratio engines does not mean they are the same. IIRC, the WS-20 has a thrust of over 15 tonnes, which is higher than that of the CJ-1000A.


ws-20 may have been merged into cj-1000a already. cj-1000a use better technology.
It's silly for China to keep 2 engine in the exact same category. China need ws-20 and cj-1000a because we need to make sure at least the more conservative ws-20 will be usable before deadline.
As long as cj-1000a goes smoothly, ws-20 is no more needed.两条腿走路
We will see, I may be wrong.


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## Figaro

vi-va said:


> ws-20 may have been merged into cj-1000a already. cj-1000a use better technology.
> It's silly for China to keep 2 engine in the exact same category. China need ws-20 and cj-1000a because we need to make sure at least the more conservative ws-20 will be usable before deadline.
> As long as cj-1000a goes smoothly, ws-20 is no more needed.两条腿走路
> We will see, I may be wrong.


I can assure you this is not true. They are both high bypass ratio engines but that is about it. One is almost to mass production while the other one is still in the demonstrator stage. Sure CJ-1000A technology is more advanced as it was developed much later ... but that also means it will come online much later. Meanwhile, China needs a high bypass ratio engine *immediately* to boost the Y-20 performance capability. As I said earlier, once the CJ-1000A is ready to be incorporated into the C919, the WS-20 will likely have a considerably improved variant with very good reliability by then. I am not sure why you are under the assumption both the WS-20 and the CJ-1000A have the same design parameters.


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## Beast

vi-va said:


> ws-20 may have been merged into cj-1000a already. cj-1000a use better technology.
> It's silly for China to keep 2 engine in the exact same category. China need ws-20 and cj-1000a because we need to make sure at least the more conservative ws-20 will be usable before deadline.
> As long as cj-1000a goes smoothly, ws-20 is no more needed.两条腿走路
> We will see, I may be wrong.


China has learn the hard lesson of making engine only if a targeted plane is available which is a mistake. They now introduced a new engine even there is no plane available for it to keep the manufacturing of aero engine mature and updated. For example US, many aero engine with no final target will eventually found a plane suitable for it. Or a new engine will eventually create a new aero project. That is why US aero engine are very matured due to many decades of experience and sharping.

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## Deino

Probably still some sort of what-if - especially with the WS-20 high-bypass turbofans as depicted - this illustration shows a PLAAF Y-20U refuelling two J-20A fighters.

(Image via by78/SDF)

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Probably still some sort of what-if - especially with the WS-20 high-bypass turbofans as depicted - this illustration shows a PLAAF Y-20U refuelling two J-20A fighters.
> 
> (Image via by78/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 662630

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## samsara

vi-va said:


> View attachment 662637



Cool scene of the legendary Kunpeng feeding three Mighty Dragons at once! 

Look forward more scenes like this in future

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Probably still some sort of what-if - especially with the WS-20 high-bypass turbofans as depicted - this illustration shows a PLAAF Y-20U refuelling two J-20A fighters.
> 
> (Image via by78/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 662630


The Y-20 looks much nicer with those large high bypass WS-20s than the current D-30KP2s ... hope we get images soon.


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## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## nomi007

1 thing is very clear that Chinese engines are not equivalent to Western Technology.


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## LKJ86

nomi007 said:


> 1 thing is very clear that Chinese engines are not equivalent to Western Technology.


Do you mean China vs. the whole west?


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## nomi007

LKJ86 said:


> Do you mean China vs. the whole west?


don't include Russia and Ukraine,


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## LKJ86

nomi007 said:


> don't include Russia and Ukraine,


Ok, do you mean China vs. USA+UK+France+Germany+...?

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## PeacefulWar

LKJ86 said:


> Ok, do you mean China vs. USA+UK+France+Germany+...?


He's busy googleing how many western countries actually manufacture engines now

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## Figaro

nomi007 said:


> 1 thing is very clear that Chinese engines are not equivalent to Western Technology.


Well obviously they are not there yet if you want to compare the Chinese state of art to the F135. But they are getting closer and closer ... once they're able to operationalize the WS-15, the gap with Russia will be completely closed. Back in 2014, a senior deputy designer of the WS-10 said that Chinese engine tech gap with the US was less than ten years. It should be smaller today.

记者：我们的发动机与美国的差距有没有10年？

老董：不到10年。

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## CAPRICORN-88

nomi007 said:


> 1 thing is very clear that Chinese engines are not equivalent to Western Technology.


It is obviously unclear to me otherwise I would not need you to make it clear to me now. 
Can you or is it just your embedded bigotry?

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Can't wait to see the first one with WS-20 torbofans.


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Can't wait to see the first one with WS-20 torbofans.


It is already there.


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> It is already there.




my point was the wish " to see" is ... and AFAIK we have no image yet.


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## LKJ86



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## JSCh

*Homegrown Y-20 jet completes heavy aerial delivery on plateau*
chinadaily.com.cn | Updated: 2020-08-26 16:00












China's domestically developed Y-20 transport aircraft reached another milestone after successfully completing its first heavy weight aerial delivery on the plateau recently, CCTV reported.

A heavy aerial delivery is a major criterion for assessing the capability to conduct airborne operations. Y-20's success means China's airborne troops have possessed strong mobility and are capable of launching a large-scale assault with heavy weapons on the plateau.

Footage released by CCTV's national defense military channel showed that, during real combat training on the plateau, the Y-20 airdropped a number of pieces of heavy equipment in succession.

After the equipment -- 107 mm multiple rocket launchers -- landed safely, paratroopers jumped from the jet. After reaching a predetermined landing area, they quickly located and manipulated the equipment to assault the enemy's forward position.

With a maximum range of 8 kilometers, 107 mm multiple rocket launchers are an important support weapon for quick response forces such as airborne troops.

This is only one of the many firsts the transport jet has achieved this year.
In February, six Y-20 transport aircraft were deployed by the PLA Air Force to carry medical supplies to Wuhan, which marked its first nonwar military operation.

In April, the aircraft carried out its first overseas mission - transporting medical supplies and three teams of experts to Pakistan, Myanmar and Laos.

On June 13, a Y-20 large transport aircraft landed at Moscow, Russia, for the first time, carrying PLA honor guard members to participate in the Russian Victory Day military parade.

"Beijing is about 6,000 km away from Moscow as the crow flies. This is the farthest overseas flight the Y-20 has made and has tested the aircraft's long-range capability," said Han Dong, a military expert.

Military aviation expert Fu Qianshao believes the Y-20 has gained experience in handling complicated situations after multiple real combat drills and that it will play a more pivotal role in the PLA Air Force's transport.

The Y-20, which began to be delivered to the PLA Air Force in July 2016, is one of the world's largest strategic heavy-lift transport jets, and has a maximum takeoff weight of around 200 metric tons.

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## LKJ86

Via @中部战区发布 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## Deino

With the serial number 20048 the 8th Y-20A assigned to the 13th Transport Division, 37th Air Regiment at Kaifeng has been spotted.

(Image by KTLJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 665188
> View attachment 665189
> View attachment 665190
> View attachment 665191
> View attachment 665192
> 
> Via @空军在线 from Weixin


I just knew that military (uniformed) passengers got their boarding passes too onboard a military transport  or am I wrong?


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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## samsara

JSCh said:


> *Homegrown Y-20 jet completes heavy aerial delivery on plateau*
> chinadaily.com.cn | Updated: 2020-08-26 16:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's domestically developed Y-20 transport aircraft reached another milestone after successfully completing its first heavy weight aerial delivery on the plateau recently, CCTV reported.
> 
> A heavy aerial delivery is a major criterion for assessing the capability to conduct airborne operations. Y-20's success means China's airborne troops have possessed strong mobility and are capable of launching a large-scale assault with heavy weapons on the plateau.
> 
> Footage released by CCTV's national defense military channel showed that, during real combat training on the plateau, the Y-20 airdropped a number of pieces of heavy equipment in succession.
> 
> After the equipment -- 107 mm multiple rocket launchers -- landed safely, paratroopers jumped from the jet. After reaching a predetermined landing area, they quickly located and manipulated the equipment to assault the enemy's forward position.
> 
> With a maximum range of 8 kilometers, 107 mm multiple rocket launchers are an important support weapon for quick response forces such as airborne troops.
> 
> This is only one of the many firsts the transport jet has achieved this year.
> In February, six Y-20 transport aircraft were deployed by the PLA Air Force to carry medical supplies to Wuhan, which marked its first nonwar military operation.
> 
> In April, the aircraft carried out its first overseas mission - transporting medical supplies and three teams of experts to Pakistan, Myanmar and Laos.
> 
> On June 13, a Y-20 large transport aircraft landed at Moscow, Russia, for the first time, carrying PLA honor guard members to participate in the Russian Victory Day military parade.
> 
> "Beijing is about 6,000 km away from Moscow as the crow flies. This is the farthest overseas flight the Y-20 has made and has tested the aircraft's long-range capability," said Han Dong, a military expert.
> 
> Military aviation expert Fu Qianshao believes the Y-20 has gained experience in handling complicated situations after multiple real combat drills and that it will play a more pivotal role in the PLA Air Force's transport.
> 
> The Y-20, which began to be delivered to the PLA Air Force in July 2016, is one of the world's largest strategic heavy-lift transport jets, and has a maximum takeoff weight of around 200 metric tons.





LKJ86 said:


>



The above news piece is more or less the narrative of the earlier video on the Y-20's heavy aerial delivery on plateau. This text as the companion in watching the video (for it has no English subtitles) then you have the full package

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1301357047032602625Global Times @globaltimesnews
China state-affiliated media

Live drills in the air and on the ground: Y-20 aircraft joined the #PLA air force troop for multiple training exercises. Check it out:

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @北疆卫士号 from Weixin

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## JSCh



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## LKJ86

JSCh said:


> View attachment 668739
> 
> View attachment 668740​
















Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 668756
> View attachment 668757
> View attachment 668758
> View attachment 668759
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


We need to see a Type 99A MBT being carried by the Y-20

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## TOTUU



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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1304385663182069761

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## TOTUU



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## ZeEa5KPul

TOTUU said:


> View attachment 668927
> View attachment 668928
> View attachment 668929


Source... NAO!!


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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## TOTUU

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Source... NAO!!


央视新闻 video source

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## Figaro

9 Y-20s have been spotted at Kaifeng, home of the 13th Transport Division, 37th Air Regiment.

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## luciferdd

from weibo@柳絮纷飞竟不是雪

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## maverick1977

Pakistan definitely need to get this strategic lift capability with this plane.. within 2-4 hours they should be able to move a div size force and then follow it up with logistical support and extraction


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## Figaro

maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan definitely need to get this strategic lift capability with this plane.. within 2-4 hours they should be able to move a div size force and then follow it up with logistical support and extraction


Pakistan should get this plane very soon IMO. The Y-20s are already starting to be produced with WS-20s so no lingering issues remain in its export viability.

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## CAPRICORN-88

Figaro said:


> Pakistan should get this plane very soon IMO. The Y-20s are already starting to be produced with WS-20s so no lingering issues remain in its export viability.


_Presently they may have an issue. 
They will needed permission for the export of its licensed Russian D30-KP turbofan that are fitted on the Y-20 airlifter. 
Once WS-20 turbofan is ready then it will be a different story._

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## Figaro

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _Presently they may have an issue.
> They will needed permission for the export of its licensed Russian D30-KP turbofan that are fitted on the Y-20 airlifter.
> Once WS-20 turbofan is ready then it will be a different story._


The WS-20 should be gearing up for mass production soon, if it hasn't already done so. As such, I think it will only take a couple of years before the Y-20 is exported.

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## Figaro

Cockpit of Y-20

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1305355857136218113

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## Beast

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _Presently they may have an issue.
> They will needed permission for the export of its licensed Russian D30-KP turbofan that are fitted on the Y-20 airlifter.
> Once WS-20 turbofan is ready then it will be a different story._


They never say that. The engine used currently is already WS-18 which looks like D30kp2. China are free to export to anyone it deems


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## CAPRICORN-88

Beast said:


> They never say that. The engine used currently is already WS-18 which looks like D30kp2. China are free to export to anyone it deems


Isn't it true that WS-18 is a licensed D30KP2?
And the WS-18B that is powering the H6N is a Chinese tweaked up version of the same engine.


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## Beast

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> Isn't it true that WS-18 is a licensed D30KP2?
> And the WS-18B that is powering the H6N is a Chinese tweaked up version of the same engine.


Its unlikely a licensed copy or forced license from Russia. Since China urgent need a big transport engine for its fleet. It powered the H-6K and Y-20. Russia has problem produced those engines in number and quality. China will not depend on them to keep up its fleet of IL-76, H-6K and Y-20. You need to take into account of rehaul, replacement of wearout engine plus supporting new H-6K, H-6J and Y-20. The PLAAF demand is huge and only thru domestic production to meet the demand.

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## Figaro

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> Isn't it true that WS-18 is a licensed D30KP2?
> And the WS-18B that is powering the H6N is a Chinese tweaked up version of the same engine.


Unlicensed, just like the WS-13. But the WS-18, besides powering the H-6K, is pretty much a goner at this point considering the imminent WS-20 mass production. Besides, something like a low bypass WS-18 is not suitable for transport planes like the Y-20 anyway.


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## Beast

Figaro said:


> Unlicensed, just like the WS-13. But the WS-18, besides powering the H-6K, is pretty much a goner at this point considering the imminent WS-20 mass production. Besides, something like a low bypass WS-18 is not suitable for transport planes like the Y-20 anyway.


Let me repeat that , WS-18 is not going anywhere. It will stay for at least a decade. The H-6K, H-6N, H-6K fuselage are not able to fit in WS-20 engine which is too big. Same as IL-76 will remain using WS-18 or D30KP2.

And how do we know WS-18 will be a low bypass engine? Maybe China tweet it to a high bypass. We all know dimension is very similar to D30KP2 but we are not sure of the Inside.


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## Deino

Three PLAAF Y-20As - 11059, 11150 and 11151 - are currently participating the "Caucasus 2020" strategic drills in Russia. They were flown from Urumqi to Kapustin Yar over a distance of 2,000 miles (3,220 km) carrying troops and equipment.

(Image via js7tv.cn)

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> Let me repeat that , WS-18 is not going anywhere. It will stay for at least a decade. The H-6K, H-6N, H-6K fuselage are not able to fit in WS-20 engine which is too big. Same as IL-76 will remain using WS-18 or D30KP2.
> 
> And how do we know WS-18 will be a low bypass engine? Maybe China tweet it to a high bypass. We all know dimension is very similar to D30KP2 but we are not sure of the Inside.


WS-18 will be used in the H-6 for sure ... but the Y-20 will adopt the WS-20. With regards to the WS-18 being low bypass, considering that all credible sources say it is a reverse engineered D-30KP2 and has an identical exterior, it is all but certain that it too has a low bypass ratio.


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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @捣蛋就对 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 670009
> 
> Via @捣蛋就对 from Weibo




Interesting, that the 13th Division has an aircraft no. 04, while the 4th Division has not (or at least not yet confirmed)


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## LKJ86

September 10, 2020








Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> September 10, 2020
> View attachment 670043
> View attachment 670044
> 
> Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo


17 Y-20s? XAC is really pumping them out like dumplings

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> 17 Y-20s? XAC is really pumping them out like dumplings


And some say we still depend on D30KP2 engine import from Russia? Just these 17 Y-20 plus H-6K, H-6K and extra engine. Will need at least 100 import and yet we see no deal of such.

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## Figaro

Beast said:


> And some say we still depend on D30KP2 engine import from Russia? Just these 17 Y-20 plus H-6K, H-6K and extra engine. Will need at least 100 import and yet we see no deal of such.


Apparently, this link says the Chinese purchased 170 D30KP2s in 2016 to power 40 Y-20 production models. I think it is still possible that most Y-20s produced so far (except for the few that have been equipped with the WS-20) are using these imported engines, considering the best estimate for the current Y-20 count is approximately 40. Since no purchases have been made since 2016, this is a very good indicator that the mass production of the WS-20 is imminent, if not already underway ... the WS-18 is being used to power the new H-6 models.

_Link claims 463 D30 engines imported from Russia for H-6K & Y-20

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/d30-engines-for-y20-and-h6k/

2009 - 55 D30 for 20 H-6K (weasel's note: ties with Sipri reporting which indicated this may also be for Il-76)
https://www.uecrus.com/eng/presscenter/odk_news/2011/?ELEMENT_ID=1291
2011 - 184 D30 for 5 Y-20, 80 H-6K ((weasel's note: Sipri also indicated for Il-76, tiananmenwordpress indicated 41 used for IL-76)
2016 - 170 D30 for 40 Y-20 (Not reported by Sipri)
2016 - 54 D30 for 20 H-6K (Not reported by Sipri)
Total 463 D30 imported_

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> September 10, 2020
> View attachment 670043
> View attachment 670044
> 
> Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo




Impressive ... but still none with WS-20?!


----------



## ziaulislam

Figaro said:


> 17 Y-20s? XAC is really pumping them out like dumplings


it shows how much disconnet there is between the real numbers china has and open source media

this is true for j10s, flankers as well..

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Impressive ... but still none with WS-20?!


How can you tell from this altitude if they are WS-20 or WS-18? Their diameter difference isn't that much noticeable from this angle.


----------



## Deino

ziaulislam said:


> it shows how much disconnet there is between the real numbers china has and open source media
> 
> this is true for j10s, flankers as well..




... and even more for the J-20.

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> Apparently, this link says the Chinese purchased 170 D30KP2s in 2016 to power 40 Y-20 production models. I think it is still possible that most Y-20s produced so far (except for the few that have been equipped with the WS-20) are using these imported engines, considering the best estimate for the current Y-20 count is approximately 40. Since no purchases have been made since 2016, this is a very good indicator that the mass production of the WS-20 is imminent, if not already underway ... the WS-18 is being used to power the new H-6 models.
> 
> _Link claims 463 D30 engines imported from Russia for H-6K & Y-20
> 
> https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/d30-engines-for-y20-and-h6k/
> 
> 2009 - 55 D30 for 20 H-6K (weasel's note: ties with Sipri reporting which indicated this may also be for Il-76)
> https://www.uecrus.com/eng/presscenter/odk_news/2011/?ELEMENT_ID=1291
> 2011 - 184 D30 for 5 Y-20, 80 H-6K ((weasel's note: Sipri also indicated for Il-76, tiananmenwordpress indicated 41 used for IL-76)
> 2016 - 170 D30 for 40 Y-20 (Not reported by Sipri)
> 2016 - 54 D30 for 20 H-6K (Not reported by Sipri)
> Total 463 D30 imported_


You need to take into account replacement for Il-76, new engine for H-6K , H-6J. Where do the number come from if according to those number import. It's simply not enough. Only by domestic production such huge appetite can only be satisfy.

Just like WS-10A, only with domestic engine production. J-11B,J-16 production demand can be met.

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## Figaro

Not sure if this was posted before but here is an official AVIC model of the civilian Y-20F100 with the WS-20. Hopefully we get a picture of the Y-20 WS-20 soon since the WS-20s have been installed since early last year.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Not sure if this was posted before but here is an official AVIC model of the civilian Y-20F100 with the WS-20. Hopefully we get a picture of the Y-20 WS-20 soon since the WS-20s have been installed since early last year.
> View attachment 670322




But this model was already at Zhuhai 2016, then again 2018 ... and still we haven't seen a real Y-20 + WS-20.


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> But this model was already at Zhuhai 2016, then again 2018 ... and still we haven't seen a real Y-20 + WS-20.


I would say just be patient. We already know from last year the WS-20s have already been fitted on the Y-20 directly from AVIC. It is only a matter of time before we get those pictures ... just like the pictures of WS-10X J-20s in service. Had the PLAAF retained the lax censorship maybe 4 to 5 years ago, I can guarantee you would already have seen those photos a long time ago.

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## LKJ86



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## Char

LKJ86 said:


>



I love the sound of engine!


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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308697679854215169
航空物语 

​35分钟前​它从首都机场起飞了
去迎接阔别70年的战士回家



​*Aviation Story
33 minutes ago*

It took off from the capital airport
To bring the soldiers who have been away for 70 years back home [tears]

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## LKJ86

Via @三愿·长安 from Weibo

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## Deino

For the first time a PLAAF Y-20A was spotted with low visibility markings and serial numbers. Aircraft number '20049' is the 9th Y-20A confirmed to be in service within the 13th Transport Division, 37th Air Regiment based at Kaifeng. 

(Image via @捣蛋不捣蛋 at Weibo)

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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @人民画报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @人民画报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via 解放军报 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西陆强军号 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## CAPRICORN-88

LKJ86 said:


>


I won't be surprise very soon    this same video will be shown in Indian News Media as proof of dead Chinese soldier in Galwan.

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## LKJ86

Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

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## Death_Angels

[QUOTE = "LKJ86, gönderi: 12745932, üye: 188772"]
View attachment 679233
View attachment 679234

Weibo'dan @ 铁幕 君 SSS ile
[/ALINTI]
How many Y-20s are there? How much is produced per year?


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 679233
> View attachment 679234
> 
> Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo













Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @兵工科技 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

October 17, 2020







Via @HTB95 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> October 17, 2020
> View attachment 680361
> View attachment 680363
> 
> Via @HTB95 from Weibo








Via @飞天小妞marica from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 680561
> 
> Via @飞天小妞marica from Weibo







Via @飞天小妞marica from Weibo

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## LKJ86

October 19, 2020




Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> October 19, 2020
> View attachment 681699
> 
> Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo


@Deino

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## Deino

vi-va said:


> @Deino




Seems so ... finally with WS-20!

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## Death_Angels

K How many Y-20s are there?


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Seems so ... finally with WS-20!
> 
> View attachment 681763





Ok, guys ... I was wrong ... I've seen a clearer image and it is indeed only the open engine cowlings.



Sorry.

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## Scorpiooo

Any info how many of these big birds have been manufactured till now ?


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## LKJ86

October 21, 2020







Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @军戈飞扬 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## Scorpiooo

Any update about Y20 based air tankers... seens few months back as prototype


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## Imran Khan

i think shark-lets are needed on it


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @岳书华摄影 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @咖啡哥的咖啡 from Weibo

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## Deino

Honestly, I'm actually not sure if this is real or a Photoshop image.
Overall not impossible since we know there is a tanker variant of the Y-20A, but it would be the first time we see it in action and then refuelling a J-20.

(Image via Nanda0206 at https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2666354&extra=page=1&fbclid=IwAR2pvnGu9UDwEGenQfiKm0a90CG1SRD3ZCfhHsK5062C9iSlOCD-w0HPsPg)








... and also??


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326933515699695623

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## JSCh

From the comment below this weibo, they seem to suggest a Y-20 with bigger diameter engine (lower left of picture)??

CD老天​56分钟前 来自 HUAWEI Mate 10 Pro​今天又要喝美了















*56 minutes ago from HUAWEI Mate 10 Pro*

Today is I am going to drink beautiful again [心][Cheers][喜][给力][打call]

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## aliaselin

Finally we do not need import aero engine from Russian anymore，though AI322 and VK2500-03，maybe D136T in future, are still imported from Ukraine


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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> Finally we do not need import aero engine from Russian anymore，though AI322 and VK2500-03，maybe D136T in future, are still imported from Ukraine


We no longer already need to import. The current Y-20 and H6K are using WS-18.

The extremely slow process of inducting and certify WS-20 is another great proof as they are no urgency to get it into service sooner.

The urgency might be from the possible replacement for C919 Leap-1 engine if really block off from supply. CJ-1000A is a higher requirement jet which may take longer time to induct. WS-20 is basically a CMF-56 core twin. It's risk and difficulty will be much lower compare to CJ-1000A.


zhxy said:


> ukraine freezes the assets of two Chinese conglomerates that have invested in Moto sich, and they probably won't return money to investors. Absolutely cannot believe the western snakes. China can only rely on itself



I will not put too much blame on Ukraine. It's more to do with US pressure on them. Plus they are dead broke, no way they can return the money.













WS-18, new type of aircraft engine successfully test in a large aircraft







errymath.blogspot.com

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> From the comment below this weibo, they seem to suggest a Y-20 with bigger diameter engine (lower left of picture)??
> 
> CD老天​56分钟前 来自 HUAWEI Mate 10 Pro​今天又要喝美了
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *56 minutes ago from HUAWEI Mate 10 Pro*
> 
> Today is I am going to drink beautiful again [心][Cheers][喜][给力][打call]
> 
> View attachment 689846​




Pardon, which lower-left image?? The only image I see is this one above and it differs in no way from the regular Y-20A since it is the first prototype during its maiden flight on 26. January 2013.

In fact it is the same image:

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## JSCh

Deino said:


> Pardon, which lower-left image?? The only image I see is this one above and it differs in no way from the regular Y-20A since it is the first prototype during its maiden flight on 26. January 2013.
> 
> In fact it is the same image:
> 
> View attachment 689859


Sorry, I meant the lower left corner showing the engine.
One more image from 燃烧的哈尔科夫 via weibo.






Deino said:


> Pardon, which lower-left image?? The only image I see is this one above and it differs in no way from the regular Y-20A since it is the first prototype during its maiden flight on 26. January 2013.
> 
> In fact it is the same image:
> 
> View attachment 689859


You r right, it does seem the same image, maybe both the pictures are fake or pretend to be what it is not.

Edit: Just found out that the first weibo post has been deleted.

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> Sorry, I meant the lower left corner showing the engine.
> One more image from 燃烧的哈尔科夫 via weibo.
> 
> View attachment 689864​
> You r right, it does seem the same image, maybe both the pictures are fake or pretend to be what it is not.
> 
> Edit: Just found out that the first weibo post has been deleted.




Wow ... here I would say that's it!

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Wow ... here I would say that's it!
> 
> View attachment 689867



Those look a lot like D-30s. You sure this isn't just a trolling attempt?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Wow ... here I would say that's it!
> 
> View attachment 689867


Finally!!!

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> Those look a lot like D-30s. You sure this isn't just a trolling attempt?




No they don't!

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## Figaro

Aah I don't know how many years we have waited for this moment . Now I wait for the WS-15 .

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## vi-va

Cheers!!!  😂

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## LKJ86



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## kuge

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330141752142008322

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## siegecrossbow

kuge said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330141752142008322



Huge news and no reaction to this?

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## ZeEa5KPul

siegecrossbow said:


> Huge news and no reaction to this?


It's nice but (A) it's not the WS-15 and (B) we need to see the close-ups.

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## Ali_Baba

We need more pictures of it, to be sure it is not a photoshop..


----------



## Trailer23

Can you imagine the Y-20 with the *Aviadvigatel PD-14* that have recently been testing on the upcoming Irkut MC-21.

Also, if China feels the pain regarding the engines for their Comac 919, should have the PD-14's.










*Flight Testing took place on a IL-76.*​
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> Can you imagine the Y-20 with the *Aviadvigatel PD-14* that have recently been testing on the upcoming Irkut MC-21.
> 
> Also, if China feels the pain regarding the engines for their Comac 919, should have the PD-14's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Flight Testing took place on a IL-76.*​
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Why would China choose to be a white rat of Russia, just like India?

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## OppositeDay

Trailer23 said:


> Can you imagine the Y-20 with the *Aviadvigatel PD-14* that have recently been testing on the upcoming Irkut MC-21.
> 
> Also, if China feels the pain regarding the engines for their Comac 919, should have the PD-14's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Flight Testing took place on a IL-76.*​
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



PD-14 corresponds to CJ-1000 in the Chinese aero-engine family, not WS20.

PD-14 is not expected to produce any more thrust than WS20. It has a higher bypass ratio than WS-20 so it's going to be more fuel efficient, but I can't recall military application of a turbofan with higher than 7 bypass ratio.


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## juj06750

Trailer23 said:


> Can you imagine the Y-20 with the *Aviadvigatel PD-14* that have recently been testing on the upcoming Irkut MC-21. Also, if China feels the pain regarding the engines for their Comac 919, should have the PD-14's.


Can you imagine the IL-76 with the *WS-20* that has yesterday made its maiden flight upon Xian Y-20. Also, if russia feels the pain regarding the engine development due to its serious lack of money, should have the WS-20's.

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## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> Why would China choose to be a white rat of Russia, just like India?


You have still immature jet engine industries dear


juj06750 said:


> Can you imagine the IL-76 with the *WS-20* that has yesterday made its maiden flight upon Xian Y-20. Also, if russia feels the pain regarding the engine development due to its serious lack of money, should have the WS-20's.


You still have immature jet engine industries dear, first make a decent low bypass turbofan, WS-10 have a relatively high bypass turbofan and your WS-15 project started in early 2000 and its still not finished, Russian have no money but they have lots of experience in turbofan tech, they are developing turbofan since mid 70s , then you were only copying old Russian/Soviet tubojets in that era


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## The Ronin

Ali_Baba said:


> We need more pictures of it, to be sure it is not a photoshop..



East Pendulum also confirms.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330161462619287552

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## juj06750

White and Green with M/S said:


> You have still immature jet engine industries dear
> You still have immature jet engine industries dear, first make a decent low bypass turbofan, WS-10 have a relatively high bypass turbofan and your WS-15 project started in early 2000 and its still not finished, Russian have no money but they have lots of experience in turbofan tech, they are developing turbofan since mid 70s , then you were only copying old Russian/Soviet tubojets in that era


again, pakistani
you MUST do the following in the below (for discussion on this forum)
first, STUDY in detail before you argue
second, READ my postings properly
third, RESPECT what others say


----------



## White and Green with M/S

juj06750 said:


> again, pakistani
> you MUST do the following in the below (for discussion on this forum)
> first, STUDY in detail before you argue
> second, READ my postings properly
> third, RESPECT what others say


Apply these rules on yourself first than talk, i am talking* REAL FACTS NOT YOUR FANTACY STORIES*


----------



## samsara

*And one should know that the news is a real deal when both the venerable mainland China's bloggers Dafeng Cao and OedoSoldier tweeted the subject!!*

Either one is already providing a good guarantee, when there are both of them, 100% manifests. ALL of these years I have never encountered a single miss of what each of them had posted!


*And from Dafeng Cao @dafengcao on 2020.11.21:*

_*4×WS-20 powered Y-20 made maiden flight today.*_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330141752142008322
* * *

*From Rupprecht Andreas Deino @RupprechtDeino on 2020.11.21:*

_Allegedly the first Y-20B (?) powered by *four indigenous WS-20 high-bypass turbofan engines* has made its maiden flight (or was at least spotted for the first time). _

(Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330084368275083267

* * *

*From Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2020.11.21:*

_Much awaited in recent years, a __*Y-20 equipped with 4 Chinese WS-20 engines* made its first successful flight *this afternoon*__.

The roll-out of this device would go back to August this year. For the moment the thrust of the WS-20 is *estimated at 142 kN*._

Photo via 燃烧 的 哈尔科夫







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330161462619287552
And from a comment at the post:
_"Is 142 kN any good?" -- "20% more than D30"_

* * *

*And from OedoSoldier on 2020.11.21:*

_*Y-20B transport plane with WS-20 engine made its maiden flight today*_



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330076327035199490

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## lcloo

The days of IL-76 transport jets in China is coming to an end since most of them are second hand refurbished ex-USSR era planes, there are not much airframe time left for them. By now there should be more Y20 than IL-76 in PLAAF service.

The stretched airframe version of Y20 (shown in previous Zhuhai airshow) should be the one on the horizon, now that the more powerful WS-20 engines are on line.

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## samsara

vi-va said:


> Cheers!!!  😂
> 
> View attachment 689885


Why were you so mean, only took a beer for this? Next time I'll show you (take a pic of) my Guizhou Maotai at the right occasion  ha ha ha

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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> You have still immature jet engine industries dear
> 
> You still have immature jet engine industries dear, first make a decent low bypass turbofan, WS-10 have a relatively high bypass turbofan and your WS-15 project started in early 2000 and its still not finished, Russian have no money but they have lots of experience in turbofan tech, they are developing turbofan since mid 70s , then you were only copying old Russian/Soviet tubojets in that era


At this point, China's engine industry is very close to that of Russia, if not on par. The latest WS-10 variant delivers performance comparable to the Saturn 117S, the most advanced Russian turbofan currently in operation. Regarding the WS-15, the development cycle of such engines does take an extremely long time ... especially a clean sheet design. Just look at the Idz-30 or the F119 timetables for comparison (the F135 does not count because it is based off the F119). We have news that the WS-15 has already been flight tested, so incorporation into the J-20 should not take much longer. The point is that currently all major Chinese aircraft are using Chinese engines and that really says a lot of their progress in the gas turbines.

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## LKJ86

Maybe the real pics of Y-20 equipped with WS-20 have not been exposed yet, as @燃烧的哈尔科夫 had posted that one we know already in July 27, 2020:

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe the real pics of Y-20 equipped with WS-20 have not been exposed yet, as @燃烧的哈尔科夫 had posted that one we know already in July 27, 2020:
> View attachment 690066




That's indeed strange....


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> That's indeed strange....


There are still no ones to dare do that now.


----------



## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> You have still immature jet engine industries dear


So, China chose the mature AL-31 and D-30 at the beginning.
And now, what new mature engines does Russia have, by comparing with China?


----------



## aliaselin

It is said WS20 is the same technology level of CFM56-7 but same thrust as 5b3. this is really good news as if US is mad and do not export Leap1C we can produce aircraft a little better than 737NG with WS20 as stop gap

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## JSCh

*China's Y-20 strategic transport aircraft gets key indigenous engine: reports*
By Liu Xuanzun Source: Global Times Published: 2020/11/22 19:08:21



A Y-20 transport aircraft makes a flight demonstration during an activity celebrating the 70th founding anniversary of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) air force in Changchun, capital of northeast China's Jilin Province, Oct. 17, 2019. (Xinhua/Lin Hong)

China's Y-20 strategic transport aircraft are finally getting its long-awaited domestically developed engines, which recently made their first public appearance, multiple media reports speculated recently. The new engines are expected to boost the Y-20's key performances including range and cargo capacity, in addition to reducing reliance on imported engines, experts said on Sunday.

Despite the new development hasn't been officially confirmed, several signs point to key progress being made in the WS-20 engine over the past weeks, according to media reports.

Earlier this month, the Xi'an Aircraft Industry (Group) Company Ltd under the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, the maker of the Y-20, released a photo that showed a turbofan engine with a high bypass ratio that had never been seen before, Beijing-based Aerospace Knowledge magazine reported on Saturday.

This unidentified engine is very likely China's domestically developed WS-20, and if this speculation is true, it is the first time the WS-20 has made a public appearance in an official media source, the magazine said.

In a recent China Central Television (CCTV) military program, Chinese military experts also revealed some new information on the WS-20. The report, quoting military expert Song Xinzhi, said that compared with the D-30, the Russian engine currently being used on the Y-20, the Chinese engine is much larger in diameter, and can provide more powerful thrust, uses less fuel, and enables the Y-20 to take off and land at airfields with shorter runways.

Speculation has it that the Y-20 has already begun to switch to the new engines, the CCTV report said.

A photo circulating on Chinese and foreign social media, allegedly showing a Y-20 equipped with four WS-20 engines in a test flight, drew the attention of military enthusiasts on Saturday.

The eventual use of the WS-20 engine on the Y-20 will give the aircraft a longer operational range and a larger cargo capacity thanks to its higher bypass ratio and greater thrust, a military expert who asked for anonymity told the Global Times on Sunday.

With the domestically made engines, the Y-20 can become capable of long-range or intercontinental flight while carrying heavy equipment like main battle tanks without stopping at a transit airfield for refuelling, the expert predicted, noting that a Y-20 equipped with WS-20 engines should be considered the true form of the aircraft.

It will also reduce China's reliance on imported military aviation engines, and become another milestone in China's aviation engine development, which used to be a weak link in the country's aviation industry, the expert said.

This is not the only new development related to the Y-20 this month. Recently, an aerial tanker variant of the Y-20 was spotted in the sky in an apparent aerial refueling maneuver for a J-20 stealth fighter jet, media reported last week.

A Y-20 pilot said earlier this year on CCTV that the Y-20 will have variants like the Y-20 aerial tanker and Y-20 aerial early warning aircraft.

The new engine could also be used on these Y-20 variants, analysts said.

It has been a busy year for the Y-20, as several of this type of aircraft joined in the fight against COVID-19, first domestically at the start of the year, then later in other parts of the world. It also participated in missions including sending Chinese troops and heavy equipment to the Russian Kavkaz-2020 strategic military drills in September, and also in September for the repatriation of remains of Chinese soldiers killed in the Korean War (1950-53).

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## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> So, China chose the mature AL-31 and D-30 at the beginning.
> And now, what new mature engines does Russia have, by comparing with China?


Both countries are using interim engines for their 5th gen jets because one have no money to research, and you have lack of experience to design and build engines from scratch


Figaro said:


> especially a clean sheet design. Just look at the Idz-30 or the F119 timetables for comparison


F-119 have relatively short time-frame of development, started along with ATF program in 80s and it had been flying within in 10 years on with YF-23/YF-22 in late 80s, as far as i remember first flight of YF-23 with F-119 was in mid 90


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## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> Both countries are using interim engines for their 5th gen jets because one have no money to research, and you have lack of experience to design and build engines from scratch


And then?
China should be a white rat of Russia, just like India???


----------



## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> And then?
> China should be a white rat of Russia, just like India???


No i m not saying that you're assuming that by yourself


----------



## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> No i m not saying that you're assuming that by yourself







So, what did you mean?


----------



## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 690189
> 
> So, what did you mean?


You have the money but lack experience but Russia have the experience your first engine from scratch will be ws-15 not WS-10 which is based upon CMF-56


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## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> You have the money but lack experience but Russia have the experience your first engine from scratch will be ws-15 not WS-10 which is based upon CMF-56


Su-57 also made maiden flight earlier than J-20, and then?

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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> F-119 have relatively short time-frame of development, started along with ATF program in 80s and it had been flying within in 10 years on with YF-23/YF-22 in late 80s, as far as i remember first flight of YF-23 with F-119 was in mid 90


The WS-15 has already conducted flight testing aboard a modified J-11 (not the J-20). This was confirmed at the beginning of last year IIRC. Considering the WS-15 only completed high/altitude core testing in 2009/2010, the time table is not slow at all. Also, you have to take into account the numerous revisions the Chinese have taken to modify the WS-15 ... the current iteration is much more advanced than the one envisioned in 2006 due to incorporating new gas turbine technologies. This will also produce delays.


White and Green with M/S said:


> You have the money but lack experience but Russia have the experience your first engine from scratch will be ws-15 not WS-10 which is based upon CMF-56


The reason why the WS-10 was built on a CFM-56 core was because the MIC at the time (late 80s) did not have much funding and the limitations of China's military technologies. But a lot has changed since then ... the Chinese thrust to weight ratio 10 core demonstrator was tested successfully at the turn of the century (CJ-2000), which later became the basis for the WS-15. Experience is another thing that is very overrated ... it can be argued the Chinese had little experience compared to the US, Europe, or Russia in practically all areas of military hardware. Yet why have they been able to catch up and exceed in some aspects so quickly? The person playing catch up usually has a much easier and faster time than the person who is already at the lead.

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## White and Green with M/S

LKJ86 said:


> Su-57 also made maiden flight earlier than J-20, and then?


So what's your point


Figaro said:


> The WS-15 has already conducted flight testing aboard a modified J-11 (not the J-20). This was confirmed at the beginning of last year IIRC. Considering the WS-15 only completed high/altitude core testing in 2009/2010, the time table is not slow at all. Also, you have to take into account the numerous revisions the Chinese have taken to modify the WS-15 ... the current iteration is much more advanced than the one envisioned in 2006 due to incorporating new gas turbine technologies. This will also produce delays.


Where can you have any pics on that ws-15 are currently testing on J-11 , i would like to say that's only just a rumors we are hearing about from years


Figaro said:


> The reason why the WS-10 was built on a CFM-56 core was because the MIC at the time (late 80s) did not have much funding and the limitations of China's military technologies. But a lot has changed since then ... the Chinese thrust to weight ratio 10 core demonstrator was tested successfully at the turn of the century (CJ-2000), which later became the basis for the WS-15. Experience is another thing that is very overrated ... it can be argued the Chinese had little experience compared to the US, Europe, or Russia in practically all areas of military hardware. Yet why have they been able to catch up and exceed in some aspects so quickly? The person playing catch up usually has a much easier and faster time than the person who is already at the


I am talking about REAL FACTS, you might be good in electronics and mechanical aspect of your military hardware but engine development is one of the most difficult aspects of military hardware development


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## LKJ86

White and Green with M/S said:


> So what's your point


And again, what did you mean?

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## LKJ86

Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 690435
> 
> Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin




Already snow?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Already snow?


Yes


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Yes




Wow ... at Xi'an or any of the operational bases?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Wow ... at Xi'an or any of the operational bases?


Yanliang

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## samsara

*From Rick Joe @RickJoe_PLA on 2020.11.22:*

_So, seems like the picture of the Y-20 is someone who widened the D-30 engines to make it seem like WS-20s (original pic 2, doctored pic 3)._

_*BUT all the big names confirm the real Y-20B with WS-20 has flown*, and notably is in yellow primer. (Speculative art pic 1)




_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330458071219408896


Deino said:


> Already snow?


That northern region of China even has a cool summer... to my surprise when I visited the northern part of Shanxi 山西 -- just adjacent to Shaanxi 陕西 with its capital city, Xi’an -- during summer a couple of years ago, the climate was very pleasant (as I don't like hot weather, thus have a good memory). Therefore I have a little wonder that winter is coming earlier to that part of China, incl. the NE region, all thank to the Siberian winds

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## samsara

As Tang Changhong, the Chief Designer of 运-20 / Yun-20, the Xi'an Y-20 large military transport aircraft, is mentioned in the list, I will simply put the list here 






*University Alumni: “Craftsman of Great Country”*

Source: CNUR.COM

*No、Name、 Position & Project、 Graduated from University

01 Zhu Yingfu Chief Designer of "Liaoning warship" Shanghai Jiaotong University*
*02 Wu Guanghui Chief Designer of "COMAC C919" NUAA
03 Yang Wei Chief Designer of "J-20" Northwestern Polytechnical University
04 Liang Jianying Chief Designer of "Fuxing" (HSR) Tongji University
05 Xie Jun Chief Designer of "BeiDou Satellite" National University of Defense Technology
06 Hu Weiwu Chief Scientist of "Loongson CPU" USTC
07 Lin Ming Chief Engineer of "Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge" Southeast University
08 Meng Fanchao Chief Designer of "Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge" Chongqing Jiaotong University
09 Wu Weiren Chief Designer of "Lunar Exploration Project" USTC
10 Xu Qinan Chief Designer of "Jiaolong" (manned deep-sea submersible) Shanghai Jiaotong University
11 Chang Jin Chief Scientist of "Wukong Satellite" (DAMPE Satellite) USTC
12 Hu Zhen Chief Designer of "Deep Sea Warrior" (manned submersible) South China University
13 Nan Rendong Chief Engineer of "China Tianyan" (FAST telescope, Guizhou) Tsinghua University
14 Pan Jianwei Chief Engineer of "Mozi Satellite" (QUESS / Quantum Experiments at Space Scale) USTC
15 Tong Wen Chief Scientist of "Huawei 5G" Southeast University
16 Zheng Shouren Chief Designer of "Three Gorges Hydropower Station" Hohai University
17 Yang Hong Chief Designer of "Tiangong No. 1" Xi'an University of Electronic Science and Technology
18 Zhu Zongpeng Chief Designer of "Tiangong No. 2" Harbin Institute of Technology
19 Li Dong Chief Designer of "Long March 5" Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics
20 Sun Jiadong Chief Designer of "Chang'e-1" Harbin Institute of Technology
21 Wu Weiren Chief Designer of "Chang'e-2" USTC
22 Sun Zezhou Chief Designer of "Chang'e-3 and Chang'e-4" NUAA
23 Tang Changhong Chief Designer of "Y-20" Northwestern Polytechnical University
24 Huang Lingcai Chief Designer of " AVIC AG600 Kunlong" (large amphibious aircraft) NUAA*
*25 Xu Qing Chief Designer of "Destroyer 055" Shanghai Jiaotong University*

USTC: University of Science and Technology of China
NUAA: Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics alias Nanhang

USTC has the most alumni in the above list; both NUAA and Shanghai Jiaotong University are the runner-up.

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## Figaro

samsara said:


> *From Rick Joe @RickJoe_PLA on 2020.11.22:*
> 
> _So, seems like the picture of the Y-20 is someone who widened the D-30 engines to make it seem like WS-20s (original pic 2, doctored pic 3)._


Ugh do these losers have nothing better to do with their lives


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## samsara

Figaro said:


> Ugh do these losers have nothing better to do with their lives


Not really! Why not one grasps it that the factual picture is not yet the right time to circulate (unless one wanna get a tea invite, which ofc nobody wants it) but the actual test was already done. The pic is just a symbolic representation, but every long time watcher know that the pic ain't everything wrt PLA development (for we have seen a lot about these pic things in the past practices)... regardless whatever outsiders may wish to demand! Just be patient. For the rest, believe as they wish...

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## LKJ86

Via @智慧西飞 from Weixin

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## Figaro

White and Green with M/S said:


> Where can you have any pics on that ws-15 are currently testing on J-11 , i would like to say that's only just a rumors we are hearing about from years


You have been here long enough to know that Chinese military developments reports are first based on rumors/leaks and that pictures only follow thereafter. For something as sensitive as the WS-15, I doubt we will be getting any pics so I wouldn't hold my breath. However the WS-15 flight test came from a very reputable source. I'm not so sure why this development is so surprising for you given the engine's timeline.


White and Green with M/S said:


> I am talking about REAL FACTS, you might be good in electronics and mechanical aspect of your military hardware but engine development is one of the most difficult aspects of military hardware development


And the "real facts" here are that virtually all Chinese major aircraft variants are using a derivative of the WS-10 or another Chinese engine. You can say Chinese engine makers have no experience compared to Western or Russian makers but the fact is all new aircraft are being produced with Chinese engines.

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## LKJ86

November 21, 2020




Via @茶水肥肥猫 from Weibo

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> November 21, 2020
> View attachment 692775
> 
> Via @茶水肥肥猫 from Weibo


For those who do not realize the significance of this image, those are 4 WS-20 engines on the Y-20.

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> For those who do not realize the significance of this image, those are 4 WS-20 engines on the Y-20.

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## vi-va

Figaro said:


> For those who do not realize the significance of this image, those are 4 WS-20 engines on the Y-20.


I found it before reading your post. Aha
Finally!!!  

One more beer.

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## Deino

Yes ... finally! This one looks legit.

however I'm surprised that it was indeed posted that day but missed until now.

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## samsara

Figaro said:


> For those who do not realize the significance of this image, those are 4 WS-20 engines on the Y-20.


Thanks for telling. I was one among those who did not realize the significance of the above pic 

... but I wonder how could one's eyes ever tell anything from such distant, small-sized picture??? Only faith may do! hahaha

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> however I'm surprised that it was indeed posted that day but missed until now.


Because he is not a military fan, and didn't realize what it was.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> Yes ... finally! This one looks legit.
> 
> however I'm surprised that it was indeed posted that day but missed until now.
> 
> View attachment 692793


@Deino -- and how did you make any meaningful identification from such foggy pic?  what sharp eyes

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## lcloo

Also the presence of a chase plane indicate that this Y20 is not a normal production aircraft (with Russian engines). Its purpose would be to observe visually if any problem develops during flight, and in this case the engines. Therefore I don't think the photo is psed.

_"Safety can be one function of a *chase plane*; others are to photograph or video the target vehicle, or to collect engineering data from it. Chase planes may be used during flight tests, and for many years the best way to ensure the safety of an experimental aircraft was to fly alongside it and observe the flight.

*This "chase" airplane's crew would keep a constant lookout for problems with the "subject" or test aircraft, and if problems did arise, they would provide warnings and critical information to the test aircraft's crew, and to the mission controllers on the ground.* They would also monitor the surrounding airspace for other aircraft that could pose a hazard to the flight, either by straying into their flightpath or threatening any kind of secrecy associated with that particular project."_

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Yes ... finally! This one looks legit.
> 
> however I'm surprised that it was indeed posted that day but missed until now.
> 
> View attachment 692793



I think this was ignored since it doesn’t look as dramatic as the fake image.

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## jaybird

LKJ86 said:


> Because he is not a military fan, and didn't realize what it was.
> View attachment 692808


 
Lying fat cat!!! selfish fat cat!!! hand over the high quality pictures of Y-20 with WS-20 engines now!!!

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## TOPGUN

Hope PAF can get a few of these in the near future inshallah !

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## samsara

I like this old, beautiful picture hosted at the Planespotters.net, the photographer, *sunshydl,* really knew on _*how to capture the grandeur*_ of the Y-20 -- one can feel the size through this photo (not sure if this pic has ever been posted here or not, the 20012), anyhow here it's:

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## Scorpiooo

TOPGUN said:


> Hope PAF can get a few of these in the near future inshallah !


In tanker and transport role will give big boost to PAF and support to PA aswell

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## Figaro

Scorpiooo said:


> In tanker and transport role will give big boost to PAF and support to PA aswell


For sure the PAF will be the first international customer of the Y-20 ... the transport/tanker capability of the PAF needs to be enhanced immediately.

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## Scorpiooo

Figaro said:


> For sure the PAF will be the first international customer of the Y-20 ... the transport/tanker capability of the PAF needs to be enhanced immediately.


Whats ir opinion, when china can offer for export because right its in improvements phase and secondly they need fullfill there domestic need at first

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## Figaro

Scorpiooo said:


> Whats ir opinion, when china can offer for export because right its in improvements phase and secondly they need fullfill there domestic need at first


Domestic first although since the manufacturing capacity for the Y-20s should be quite high, I'm sure the PAF will get its hands on it in no time. After you see the first Y-20 with WS-20 in service, it will not be long before Pakistan gets it too.

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## Scorpiooo

Figaro said:


> Domestic first although since the manufacturing capacity for the Y-20s should be quite high, I'm sure the PAF will get its hands on it in no time. After you see the first Y-20 with WS-20 in service, it will not be long before Pakistan gets it too.


Anyone have idea about is price

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## Ali_Baba

Scorpiooo said:


> Anyone have idea about is price



And the airframe lifespan, and the engine maintenance costs  also .. would be useful to see its cost per hour compared to its competitors.

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## samsara

Ali_Baba said:


> And the airframe lifespan, and the engine maintenance costs  also .. would be useful to see its cost per hour compared to its competitors.


guys you better do your initial acquisition process or purchase intent inquiries (incl. the specs solicitation) thru the official line G-to-G channel. 

Under a pure guess that Y-20 is opened for export thus its specs will be listed. Meaning if it is not the case, then just forget it.

Then get the funding ready and let the manufacturer worry about the schedule thing.

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## Figaro

samsara said:


> guys you better do your initial acquisition process or purchase intent inquiries (incl. the specs solicitation) thru the official line G-to-G channel.
> 
> Under a pure guess that Y-20 is opened for export thus its specs will be listed. Meaning if it is not the case, then just forget it.
> 
> Then get the funding ready and let the manufacturer worry about the schedule thing.


The Y-20 was confirmed to be available for export in one of the previous Zhuhai air shows. It is not like the J-20 in that it has a lot of strategic technologies.

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## Daniel808

*Y-20 Strategic Airlifter with WS-20 Engine*

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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> *Y-20 Strategic Airlifter with WS-20 Engine*
> View attachment 695778




IMO this is a faked one

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> IMO this is a faked one


Some people have too much time on their hands

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> IMO this is a faked one



Not even a good fake. The lighting is way off.

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## ZeEa5KPul

siegecrossbow said:


> Not even a good fake. The lighting is way off.


It's still got the D30 thrust reversers. Why do these pieces of sh*t do this?


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## Beast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> It's still got the D30 thrust reversers. Why do these pieces of sh*t do this?


Maybe prelude to a real clear photo?

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Char



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## Deino

Char said:


> View attachment 702852




At Fiery Cross island on 25. December

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> At Fiery Cross island on 25. December


nice


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## Beast

vi-va said:


> nice


Y-20 take off from there can easily extend it's ferry range by a thousand km compare to hainan island.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> At Fiery Cross island on 25. December


*Nicely positioned*

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## LKJ86

January 4, 2021




Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> January 4, 2021
> View attachment 703885
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


*The Y-20 having drill!*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346712515447672832

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## LKJ86

*China developed large transport aircraft Y-20 conducted the first military drill in 2021*
In video: China's domestically developed large transport aircraft Y-20 at a PLA Air Force division in Western Theater Command on Jan 4 conducted the first military drill in 2021, including airborne operations.

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @学习军团 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350063821826760706

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## LKJ86

Via @小铁君sss from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 707148
> View attachment 707156
> 
> View attachment 707157
> 
> Via @小铁君sss from Weibo




Wow ... a new one in low visibility!


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## samsara

From OedoSoldier @OedoSoldier on 2021.01.26:

_*The trajectory of the Y-20. TODAY is the 8th anniversary of the first flight of the Y-20.*_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353944181639528448
_Another brief, cool training footage:_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353943517161111554

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## samsara

From Rupprecht Andreas Deino @RupprechtDeino on 2021.01.26:

_*And once again *_*😄 *_* ... happy 8th anniversary!*_




















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354058770347913216

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## kuge

still no ws-20 powered y20 yet?


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## samsara

kuge said:


> still no ws-20 powered y20 yet?


Nope! If they do release the pictures, you will see them here or there.

If you don't see them means the pictures are not yet released, thus won't be available, so no need to ask... just similar case with the KJ-600, etc.

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## LKJ86

Via @ 西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Y-20U





Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4599510890905645?from=old_pc_videoshow

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Y-20U
> View attachment 712143
> 
> Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4599510890905645?from=old_pc_videoshow




Great ... a prototype with CFTE number! Any idea which one?


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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

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## JSCh

*Chinese military plane lands in Cambodia with 600,000 Covid vaccines | AFP*
Feb 7, 2021



AFP News Agency

A China People's Liberation Army Air Force aircraft carrying 600,000 doses of the Sinovac coronavirus vaccine lands at an airport in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. Premier Hua Sen, who is at the airport overseeing the arrival of the vaccines, said in January China donated one million doses of the Covid-19 jabs to the Southeast Asian kingdom.

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## LKJ86

Via @ccckkknnn2012 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

*Cambodian PM welcomes 1st batch of Chinese COVID-19 vaccines*
A special plane carrying the first batch of China-donated Sinopharm COVID-19 vaccines arrived in Cambodia, which was welcomed by Prime Minister Samdech Techo Hun Sen at the capital's airport.

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## LKJ86

Via @sky国航777 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @HTB95 from Weibo

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## Daniel808

*Y-20 Strategic Airlifter in Action

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350122720348946433*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360889594288369672
*Some Images of Y-20 Strategic Airlifter in Action during 2020*

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## Deino

Seems as if these PLAAF Y-20As have enough of social distancing! 
With 20x4x serial numbers they are from the 13th Transport Division, 37th Air Regiment based at Kaifeng. 

(Image courtesy of KTLJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Seems as if these PLAAF Y-20As have enough of social distancing!
> With 20x4x serial numbers they are from the 13th Transport Division, 37th Air Regiment based at Kaifeng.
> 
> (Image courtesy of KTLJ via Huitong's CMA-Blog)
> 
> View attachment 716164





In the background is one in low visibility markings:


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## LKJ86



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## Deino

So it seems, hand over to the PLAAF and service entry is quite imminent?



> *Satellite images suggest China’s new tanker aircraft is under production*
> 
> By: Mike Yeo
> 
> 
> MELBOURNE, Australia — Satellite imagery appears to indicate China has begun serial production of a tanker aircraft based on its indigenous Xi’an Y-20 airlifter, filling a notable gap in the power projection capabilities of its air force.
> The overhead imagery of the airfield at Xi’an-Yanliang — taken Dec. 30, 2020, and provided to Defense News by Planet Labs — shows four Y-20s with the shadows of refueling pods on their outer wings clearly visible, indicating that these are Y-20U tankers.
> ...



via








Satellite images suggest China’s new tanker aircraft is under production


Three of the four aircraft in the satellite photo are painted in dark gray, while the last aircraft is still in its primer coat.




www.defensenews.com

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## CIA Mole

with ws20 high bypass engines?


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## Deino

CIA Mole said:


> with ws20 high bypass engines?




No, not yet ... the prototype is not even a year old.


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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @空天砺剑 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Deino I don't think the Y-20 is available for export yet, but, watch this space because the PAF is on the look for a successor to the IL-78. Basically, a heavy-lifter with more efficient engines, and AAR capability.


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## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Deino I don't think the Y-20 is available for export yet, but, watch this space because the PAF is on the look for a successor to the IL-78. Basically, a heavy-lifter with more efficient engines, and AAR capability.




... and as such the Y-20U would be a primary candidate!

So there is some rumour around similar to a new fighter? 😉

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## Deino

By the way ... 







via

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363666111913459714

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> ... and as such the Y-20U would be a primary candidate!
> 
> So there is some rumour around similar to a new fighter? 😉


Maybe they'll come together. Take the long delivery route to show off the refueling

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## khanasifm

The big question is y20 Wirh ws20 engine or older fuel guzzler russian engines ?


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## Figaro

khanasifm said:


> The big question is y20 Wirh ws20 engine or older fuel guzzler russian engines ?


WS-20 for currently produced types ... WS-18 or remaining Russian D-30KP-2s for old Y-20s.

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## StraightEdge

Question - can't same engines like WS20 be used for civilian aircrafts like C919? or engines need to be specifically designed for particular aircraft?


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## samsara

StraightEdge said:


> Question - can't same engines like WS20 be used for civilian aircrafts like C919? or engines need to be specifically designed for particular aircraft?


You may wish to search the net resource for the High-bypass vs. Low-bypass ratio of aero-engine; moreover military aero-engine prioritizes performance, while civilian aero-engine prioritizes fuel economy.

Of course, if push comes to shove, the military aero-engine can be used for civilian aircraft, in particular to the domestic use.

But for C919, the civilian aero-engine corp. ACAE is developing the CJ-1000 series and CJ-2000 series.

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## UKBengali

Figaro said:


> WS-20 for currently produced types ... WS-18 or remaining Russian D-30KP-2s for old Y-20s.




As I understand it the WS-20 is still in testing.

Seems like a long time as the first engine was put on a Russian plane all the way back in 2014.


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## Tiqiu

Hope this long-waited image of WS20 is genuine.


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## Beast

StraightEdge said:


> Question - can't same engines like WS20 be used for civilian aircrafts like C919? or engines need to be specifically designed for particular aircraft?


CJ-1000 and Leap X are more fuel efficient than WS-20 engine. Maxismise profit and tough margin are crucial for C919 to be competitive against other same category of narrow passenger airliner.

WS-20 I believe will be used on militarize version of C919 like USN P-8 since that additional fuel consumption will not do much harm for military.

I believe WS-20 will not enter service with Y-20 soon. Maybe another 2-3 years. It's not critical since the current Y-20 are working fine with WS-18 engine which can be compatible with H-6K bomber and IL-76.

The photo we see with WS-20 io Y-20 is more for verification or certify the engine.

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## Figaro

UKBengali said:


> As I understand it the WS-20 is still in testing.
> 
> Seems like a long time as the first engine was put on a Russian plane all the way back in 2014.


It's in the final phases of testing ... production variants should come out next year. There was a report from a couple of years ago that the WS-20 technical specifications, specifically the reliability, was significantly heightened during the development cycle (being their first high bypass turbofan). Otherwise, it would have come out a lot sooner.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Deino I don't think the Y-20 is available for export yet, but, watch this space because the PAF is on the look for a successor to the IL-78. Basically, a heavy-lifter with more efficient engines, and AAR capability.


I'm almost certain we will see a Y-20 flying PAF colors within the next five years.

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## UKBengali

Figaro said:


> It's in the final phases of testing ... production variants should come out next year. There was a report from a couple of years ago that the WS-20 technical specifications, specifically the reliability, was significantly heightened during the development cycle (being their first high bypass turbofan). Otherwise, it would have come out a lot sooner.




I await the WS-20 coming into service next year, as otherwise the omens for the CJ-1000A coming into service this decade for the C-919 airliner is not good.


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## Figaro

UKBengali said:


> I await the WS-20 coming into service next year, as otherwise the omens for the CJ-1000A coming into service this decade for the C-919 airliner is not good.


The Chinese don't have as much experience in high bypass engines ... hence the delay. Also, since the CJ-1000A is a turbofan for a passenger jetliner, its reliability requirements/tolerance are much higher than that of the equivalent military grade turbofan. Besides, the WS-20 and CJ-1000A don't share the same basis design to my knowledge; the former is based off the WS-10 while the latter is a clean sheet design.

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## UKBengali

Figaro said:


> The Chinese don't have as much experience in high bypass engines ... hence the delay. Also, since the CJ-1000A is a turbofan for a passenger jetliner, its reliability requirements/tolerance are much higher than that of the equivalent military grade turbofan. Besides, the WS-20 and CJ-1000A don't share the same basis design to my knowledge; the former is based off the WS-10 while the latter is a clean sheet design.




Yes, I know all of that.

The CJ-1000A was initially supposed to be close to the WS-20 in technology but this was rightly rejected as being outdated and so a more ambitious project targeting Leap-1C levels of tech was launched instead.

My point is that if the Chinese cannot get the WS-20 into service by next year, then it will be difficult for them to get the far more technologically advanced CJ-1000A into service before the end of this decade as well.

Anyway let us wait and see as the Chinese are making steady progress in jet engine tech as we saw with the WS-10 series last decade and so they can only make more breakthroughs this decade as well.

It would be fantastic to see WS-15(likely), WS-20(likely), WS-19(likely) and CJ-1000A(maybe) all put into service this decade.

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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> Yes, I know all of that.
> 
> The CJ-1000A was initially supposed to be close to the WS-20 in technology but this was rightly rejected as being outdated and so a more ambitious project targeting Leap-1C levels of tech was launched instead.
> 
> My point is that if the Chinese cannot get the WS-20 into service by next year, then it will be difficult for them to get the far more technologically advanced CJ-1000A into service before the end of this decade as well.
> 
> Anyway let us wait and see as the Chinese are making steady progress in jet engine tech as we saw with the WS-10 series last decade and so they can only make more breakthroughs this decade as well.
> 
> It would be fantastic to see WS-15(likely), WS-20(likely), WS-19(likely) and CJ-1000A(maybe) all put into service this decade.


There is no hurry to get WS-20 into service. Not until C919 is put into service.


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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> There is no hurry to get WS-20 into service. Not until C919 is put into service.




I do not agree as both WS-20 for Y-20 and CJ-1000A for C919 are important for China.

China is currently relying on 1960s tech Russian engines to power it's Y-20 transport and this is really inefficient and lacks thrust. The WS-20 would take the engine technology up to roughly 1980/90s Western level and would improve both efficiency and thrust which would make the Y-20 a much better transport and also AEW etc.


Anyway there is not much use speculating too much and we just need to wait to see if the WS-20 is flying on production Y-20s next year.


PS - CJ-1000A for C919 airliner is now targeted to be put into service for the latter half of this decade and has yet to be tested on a flying plane, and so is many many years behind, maybe even a decade, the WS-20 that has been flying since 2014 on a Russian plane.


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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> I do not agree as both WS-20 for Y-20 and CJ-1000A for C919 are important for China.
> 
> China is currently relying on 1960s tech Russian engines to power it's Y-20 transport and this is really inefficient and lacks thrust. The WS-20 would take the engine technology up to roughly 1980/90s Western level and would improve both efficiency and thrust which would make the Y-20 a much better transport and also AEW etc.
> 
> 
> Anyway there is not much use speculating too much and we just need to wait to see if the WS-20 is flying on production Y-20s next year.
> 
> 
> PS - CJ-1000A for C919 airliner is now targeted to be put into service for the latter half of this decade and has yet to be tested on a flying plane, and so is many many years behind, maybe even a decade, the WS-20 that has been flying since 2014 on a Russian plane.



I strongly disagree with your conclusion.
DK-30KP2 and WS-18 are not 60s tech. Check out their history.









Soloviev D-30 - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





They are Soviet most advance turbofan engine when Introduced in 70s and a major upgrade in the 80s. The final version of DK-30KP2 with further refined is product of post Soviet era products in the 90s.

Even the CMF-56 which large number of passenger plane flying with are 70s era engine traces back to FW100 engine.WS-20 core derived from this.

The high bypass is even more Insignificant when used on a large transport plane like Y-20 which has huge payload and capacity to install extra internal fuel tank to make up for the low bypass engine fuel consumption. In terms of thrust D-30KP2 and WS-18 are not much far behind from CMF-56.

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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> I strongly disagree with your conclusion.
> DK-30KP2 and WS-18 are not 60s tech. Check out their history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soloviev D-30 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are Soviet most advance turbofan engine when Introduced in 70s and a major upgrade in the 80s. The final version of DK-30KP2 with further refined is product of post Soviet era products in the 90s.
> 
> Even the CMF-56 which large number of passenger plane flying with are 70s era engine traces back to FW100 engine.WS-20 core derived from this.
> 
> The high bypass is even more Insignificant when used on a large transport plane like Y-20 which has huge payload and capacity to install extra internal fuel tank to make up for the low bypass engine fuel consumption. In terms of thrust D-30KP2 and WS-18 are not much far behind from CMF-56.




I am comparing to Western tech levels - Russia was always 10-20 years behind the USA in jet-engine tech during the cold-war.

WS-20 is a whole 20 years more modern than the DK-30KP2 that are installed in Y-20.


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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> I am comparing to Western tech levels - Russia was always 10-20 years behind the USA in jet-engine tech during the cold-war.
> 
> WS-20 is a whole 20 years more modern than the DK-30KP2 that are installed in Y-20.


CMF-56 core is more in tune for civilian plane than military. It is designed with high bypass in mind to reduce fuel consumption in order to fit Into competitive margin driven civilian airliner market. 

In military terms , that few additional fuel consumption wouldn't cause much harm compare to strategic need of military point of view.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> CMF-56 core is more in tune for civilian plane than military. It is designed with high bypass in mind to reduce fuel consumption in order to fit Into competitive margin driven civilian airliner market.
> 
> In military terms , that few additional fuel consumption wouldn't cause much harm compare to strategic need of military point of view.




The funny part on this it now almost made a full circle: The WS-10 is based on the CGM-56's core and as such a high-bypass civil engine was converted/developed into a low-bypass military engine ... the WS-20 now is a high-bypass engine developed on the WS-10's core and as such it would be interesting, how much similar the WS-20 is now in comparison to its original ancestor?!

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## LKJ86

Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4608909927972881?from=old_pc_videoshow

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365955024514281473Shen Shiwei沈诗伟 @shen_shiwei
China state-affiliated media

President of the #Philippines Rodrigo Duterte, Chinese Amb. @Chinaembmanila Huang Xilian, and other Philippine government officials inspect the first batch of China’s #Sinovac #COVID19 vaccines that arrived at the Villamor Air Base.










5:20 PM · Feb 28, 2021

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## Scorpiooo

What is minimum runway length required by Y20 to takeoff and land


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## Polestar 2

Scorpiooo said:


> What is minimum runway length required by Y20 to takeoff and land


300m?

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## dbc

Polestar 2 said:


> 300m?



The C17 has the current world record at 427 meters take off and landing with a pay load of 20 tons. 300 meters is impressive and probably a new world record.


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## Polestar 2

dbc said:


> The C17 has the current world record at 427 meters take off and landing with a pay load of 20 tons. 300 meters is impressive and probably a new world record.


Very likely that Y-20 is taking off with empty payload and 1/3 fuel loaded..


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## CAPRICORN-88

_Meaning that with four powerful WS-20 turbofan installed, it can similar take off with a heavier payload within 300 meters.
Am I right? _


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## vi-va

dbc said:


> The C17 has the current world record at 427 meters take off and landing with a pay load of 20 tons. 300 meters is impressive and probably a new world record.


300 meter is not possible nor necessary, unless empty.

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## khanasifm

Can be a good replacement for
Paf Il-78 ona few
Decades


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## Polestar 2

khanasifm said:


> Can be a good replacement for
> Paf Il-78 ona few
> Decades


I think it's possible. PAF will have leap performance in airlift if equip with Y-20.


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## Deino

I know we have been discussing potential images of the Y-20B using WS-20 turbofans several times already and have been proven wrong most often ... so here another try?






(Image via @柳成梁 from 解放軍評論團 at FB)

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## Deino

Again, I'm still not entirely sure concerning this new GE image of the Y-20B with WS-20 turbofan engines since we have been fooled more than once before. 

But my feeling tells me this looks like the Y-20B prototype in primer that made its maiden flight on 21 November 2020. 

(Image via GE via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

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## lcloo

Latest satellite photo date 29 January 2021. 15 or may be 16 Y20 sighted.

Y20s #1, #3, #4, #6,#10, #13 and #14 looks like fuel tankers.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Latest satellite photo date 29 January 2021. 15 or may be 16 Y20 sighted.
> 
> Y20s #1, #3, #4, #6,#10, #13 and #14 looks like fuel tankers.
> 
> View attachment 721896
> View attachment 721897



a PS from me: Yes, no. 16 is a Y-20A too.


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## lcloo

One that I missed. No.17 spotted. So, on January 29th, 2021, there were 17 Y20s sighted in Yanliang, including transport jets, fuel tankers (Y20U?) and yellow painted prototype with new engines.

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Beast

China shall convert a Y-20 into China president one airplane. Give it a luxurious inner makeover. The short take off , rugged landing capabilities will make it a very safe president airplane. Of cos, this version will flow with WS-20 engine for better fuel efficiency and higher thrust.

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377466605681004546Ramon Ortoll @marortoll

China delivers vaccines to Laos and Cambodia. These are China Aid not purchased vaccines.










11:43 AM · Apr 1, 2021

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## CAPRICORN-88

China has donated vaccines to more than 80 nations.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> China has donated vaccines to more than 80 nations.



China is winning hearts and minds. Meanwhile, US is losing hearts and minds.


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## CAPRICORN-88

Tai Hai Chen said:


> China is winning hearts and minds. Meanwhile, US is losing hearts and minds.



_Today *China has donating more medicines and vaccines to friendly nations than under WHO COVAX. *
Example. China has despatched planes after planes loaded with much needed medicine for Venezuala and Iran. These nations are unilaterally sanctioned by USA.

Why Is US and her allies accusing China of Vaccine Diplomacy? 
They are welcome to do the same. The mission is just the same. 
it is well known fact that Chinese banks approved more loans to developing nations than World Bank, IMF, etc combined. 

In their version of democracy, China is not even allowed to donate directly to nations that send SOS to them. Western hypocrisy. 

These desperate nations must line up in queue until WHO received all its donations. _

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## CAPRICORN-88

_Right now, I am looking forward to hear the news or see an image of the Y-20 stretch variants with its WS-20 high bypass turbofans. _


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## Deino

I know we have bee fooled more than once, but as it seems, this is the first closer look onto the WS-20 powered Y-20B prototype.

(Image via @大水 from toutiao)

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## kuge

hope to see the video to verify its veracity.


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## CAPRICORN-88

_This is an exciting moment. _

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## samsara

Deino said:


> I know we have bee fooled more than once, but as it seems, this is the first closer look onto the WS-20 powered Y-20B prototype.
> 
> (Image via @大水 from toutiao)
> 
> View attachment 731109


Also reaffirmed by OedoSoldier @OedoSoldier on 2021.04.05:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379050678157373451

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## Han Patriot

samsara said:


> Also reaffirmed by OedoSoldier @OedoSoldier on 2021.04.05:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379050678157373451


Maturing fast, as recent as 3 years ago, people even doubted WS10A was equuiped with any fighters.

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## samsara

Han Patriot said:


> Maturing fast, as recent as 3 years ago, people even doubted WS10A was equuiped with any fighters.


In general the West has a heavy dossier of disbelief on China's engine things... they have touted endlessly that it's one of China's biggest weakness until now, and that thing is strongly shaping their arrogance to look down on Chinese!

It's my biggest wish to see China makes strong advancement in this field to patch the technological hole for good! Any significant progress will be quite a welcoming news.

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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> Maturing fast, as recent as 3 years ago, people even doubted WS10A was equuiped with any fighters.



But to be honest; anyone who was still denying that the WS-10 is equipping PLAAF fighters is an idiot and idiots - unfortunately - you can find everywhere.



samsara said:


> In general the West has a heavy dossier of disbelief on China's engine things... they have touted endlessly that it's one of China's biggest weakness until now, and that thing is strongly shaping their arrogance to look down on Chinese!
> 
> It's my biggest wish to see China makes strong advancement in this field to patch the technological hole for good! Any significant progress will be quite a welcoming news.




Agreed, but otherwise it is still not as if the gap is closed yet. It is closing rapidly and I wish the same like you, but just the mentioned two most important engines - aka the WS-10 and now the WS-20 - are de facto engines comparable to the F100/F110 and CFM-56 class, which entered service in the West several years ago: the F100 in 1972, the F110 in the mid-1980s and the CFM-56 in 1982. *I surely don't want to say, *that China is engine-technology-wise still at a level of the 1980s and as such 40 years behind since the latest WS-10/20 engines are technology-, material-wise and so on surely much more advanced, but alone measured by the service-entry date of their engines to the closest comparable competitors in the US, there is still a significant and undeniable gap. How huge this gap is, we will probably only learn in a few years, when the WS-15/-19 and CJ-1000A are mature.

Please don't rate this as some sort downplay of China's achievements.

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## Polestar 2

Deino said:


> But to be honest; anyone who was still denying that the WS-10 is equipping PLAAF fighters is an idiot and idiots - unfortunately - you can find everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but otherwise it is still not as if the gap is closed yet. It is closing rapidly and I wish the same like you, but just the mentioned two most important engines - aka the WS-10 and now the WS-20 - are de facto engines comparable to the F100/F110 and CFM-56 class, which entered service in the West several years ago: the F100 in 1972, the F110 in the mid-1980s and the CFM-56 in 1982. I surely don't want to say, that China is engine-technology-wise still at a level of the 1980s and as such 40 years behind since the latest WS-10/20 engines are technology-, material-wise and so on surely much more advanced, but alone measured by the service-entry date of their engines to the closest comparable competitors in the US, there is still a significant and undeniable gap. How huge this gap is, we will probably only learn in a few years, when the WS-15/-19 and CJ-1000A are mature.
> 
> Please don't rate this as some sort downplay of China's achievements.


I disagree with your statement. Surely, China WS-10B and WS-20 are not the level of F110 and CFM-56 in the 1980s.

WS-10B is rated 14500kg thrust with afterburner. Do F110 engine can have such thrust in 1980?
Same as the CFM-56 which has introduced plenty of version even up to years 2000 with new variant of more modern one enter service.

To claim China is 40 years behind in turbofan is an overstatement and might as well ask why a 40 years old turbofan equipped most of the airliner even until now in 2021?

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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> ...
> 
> To claim China is 40 years behind in turbofan is an overstatement and might as well ask why a 40 years old turbofan equipped most of the airliner even until now in 2021?




This is exactly what I did not say: There is NO 40-years gap, surely not, but it must anyway be taken into consideration, that the most-comparable engines of a similar application and thrust level were already operational in the West several years (in fact decades) ago. Again, I don't want to downplay China's success, but like some already tried, to tell the gap is no longer is a similar overrated assessment.

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## UKBengali

Deino said:


> Agreed, but otherwise it is still not as if the gap is closed yet. It is closing rapidly and I wish the same like you, but just the mentioned two most important engines - aka the WS-10 and now the WS-20 - are de facto engines comparable to the F100/F110 and CFM-56 class, which entered service in the West several years ago: the F100 in 1972, the F110 in the mid-1980s and the CFM-56 in 1982. *I surely don't want to say, *that China is engine-technology-wise still at a level of the 1980s and as such 40 years behind since the latest WS-10/20 engines are technology-, material-wise and so on surely much more advanced, but alone measured by the service-entry date of their engines to the closest comparable competitors in the US, there is still a significant and undeniable gap. How huge this gap is, we will probably only learn in a few years, when the WS-15/-19 and CJ-1000A are mature.
> 
> Please don't rate this as some sort downplay of China's achievements.







I read an article back in 2010 and the Chinese engine expert said that China was 30 years behind the US in engine technology at the time. He predicted that China would match the US by 2040 and on current trends he may not be too far off his prediction.

China by the end of this decade should be totally sufficient in all types of aircraft engines - helicopters, military and civilian planes but the tech levels will still be 1-2 decades behind that of the US.

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## LKJ86

Via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 731950
> 
> Via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo




A light for night refuelling on the Y-20U tanker?

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## Deino

No. 7810

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## lcloo

Enlarge photo from Deino's post above.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Enlarge photo from Deino's post above.
> 
> View attachment 732440



... with a minor correction, these are not Y-8s

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> ... with a minor correction, these are not Y-8s
> View attachment 732472



You were sarcastic when you said minor?

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## lcloo

siegecrossbow said:


> You were sarcastic when you said minor?


LOL, my brain was fried, very blur...

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## casual

Deino said:


> ... with a minor correction, these are not Y-8s
> View attachment 732472


Seems like the real deal.

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## jaybird

lcloo said:


> LOL, my brain was fried, very blur...



We've all made similar mistakes with brain farted moment one time or another without realizing it too. 

You and Bltizo are still one of the best and honest PLA watcher/enthusiast always with good analyzes on Chinese military related subjects. 👍

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Beast

WS-18 engine used on Y-20

-300kg lighter than D30
-700kg more thrust
-uses less 20% fuel
-3000hrs lifespan

rumour used on H-20 bomber as test engine due to its smaller dimension.

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## StraightEdge

Beast said:


> WS-18 engine used on Y-20
> 
> -300kg lighter than D30
> -700kg more thrust
> -uses less 20% fuel
> -3000hrs lifespan
> 
> rumour used on H-20 bomber as test engine due to its smaller dimension.



What happened to WS-20? Was it not under development for Y-20?


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## Beast

StraightEdge said:


> What happened to WS-20? Was it not under development for Y-20?


Can WS20 fit into H-6K or new H-20 bomber... No. WS-20 engine is too fat. It is good for civilian transport plane and Airliner but dimension is not good for tactical military platform.


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## Polestar 2

WS-18 and WS20 will both co-exist.


----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Beast

Very dangerous and difficult exercise. Night parachuting.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 737603
> View attachment 737604
> View attachment 737605
> View attachment 737606
> View attachment 737607
> View attachment 737608
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业一飞院 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 742262
> View attachment 742263
> View attachment 742264
> View attachment 742265
> 
> Via 解放军报

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## Deino

Allegedly the first Y-20U has been delivered to an operational unit. And even if my best guess as the PLAAF's first unit to gain this type would be the 13th Transport Division's 38th Air Regiment at Wuhan-Paozhuwan, which operates Il-76MD/TD
and the three Il-78 tanker, another option could be this one with the so far highest number "27" (?) or serial number 11257 assigned to the 4th Transport Division, 12th Air Regiment at Chengdu-Qionglai. The jump from the previously highest number seen "11155" to "11257" could be a hint for a new squadron.

(Image via @Oneninety from Weibo)

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Allegedly the first Y-20U has been delivered to an operational unit. And even if my best guess as the PLAAF's first unit to gain this type would be the 13th Transport Division's 38th Air Regiment at Wuhan-Paozhuwan, which operates Il-76MD/TD
> and the three Il-78 tanker, another option could be this one with the so far highest number "27" (?) or serial number 11257 assigned to the 4th Transport Division, 12th Air Regiment at Chengdu-Qionglai. The jump from the previously highest number seen "11155" to "11257" could be a hint for a new squadron.
> 
> (Image via @Oneninety from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 743851


Gosh, we need many of those. It will extend PLAAF arms and legs, make it real strategic force.

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## LKJ86

Via @中部战区 from Weibo

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 744191
> 
> Via @中部战区 from Weibo


Where are they going?


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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Allegedly the first Y-20U has been delivered to an operational unit. And even if my best guess as the PLAAF's first unit to gain this type would be the 13th Transport Division's 38th Air Regiment at Wuhan-Paozhuwan, which operates Il-76MD/TD
> and the three Il-78 tanker, another option could be this one with the so far highest number "27" (?) or serial number 11257 assigned to the 4th Transport Division, 12th Air Regiment at Chengdu-Qionglai. The jump from the previously highest number seen "11155" to "11257" could be a hint for a new squadron.
> 
> (Image via @Oneninety from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 743851


@Deino these Y20s will replace IL76/78 in PLAAF , then those IL76 will transformed to other brigades or will be retired

__________________________________________

Anyone's know what the update on Y20 based tankers, when can we see there production and induction


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> @Deino these Y20s will replace IL76/78 in PLAAF , then those IL76 will transformed to other brigades or will be retired
> 
> __________________________________________
> 
> Anyone's know what the update on Y20 based tankers, when can we see there production and induction




If this is a question, then yes and no IMO. Yes, they will slowly replace the Il-76/78s but not yet and I'm quite sure in order to expand the PLAAF's airlift capacity, they will keep them in service as long as possible.

Concerning the second point - "will transformed to other brigades" - is indeed a question I'm spinning around since years. Historically the PLAAF had only three Transport brigades with only two of them true active for military transport (namely the 4th and 13th TDs; the 34th is more a VIP unit) but if they really a´want to expand both their airlift and tanker capacity, then new units need to be formed or convert from other duties to tanker/transport units.

and for your last question ... the Y-20U is in production and has allegedly entered service within the 13th TD.

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> If this is a question, then yes and no IMO. Yes, they will slowly replace the Il-76/78s but not yet and I'm quite sure in order to expand the PLAAF's airlift capacity, they will keep them in service as long as possible.
> 
> Concerning the second point - "will transformed to other brigades" - is indeed a question I'm spinning around since years. Historically the PLAAF had only three Transport brigades with only two of them true active for military transport (namely the 4th and 13th TDs; the 34th is more a VIP unit) but if they really a´want to expand both their airlift and tanker capacity, then new units need to be formed or convert from other duties to tanker/transport units.
> 
> and for your last question ... the Y-20U is in production and has allegedly entered service within the 13th TD.


Thanks for sharing, if they build new units, then mean huge expension for PLAAF in form of operational capacities. Like they are expending navy

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## Polestar 2

Scorpiooo said:


> @Deino these Y20s will replace IL76/78 in PLAAF , then those IL76 will transformed to other brigades or will be retired
> 
> __________________________________________
> 
> Anyone's know what the update on Y20 based tankers, when can we see there production and induction


PLAAF are spendthrift. They will used IL-76 even more frequent if possible to make full use of it's lifespan to support whatever mission. Just like SU-27SK which PLAAF imported had already retired due to high intense usage by training pilot to expend it's lifespan to the maximum.

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## sheik

Polestar 2 said:


> PLAAF are spendthrift. They will used IL-76 even more frequent if possible to make full use of it's lifespan to support whatever mission. Just like SU-27SK which PLAAF imported had already retired due to high intense usage by training pilot to expend it's lifespan to the maximum.




J-10A might be another example.

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## JSCh



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## Deino

Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!

So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯

(Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!
> 
> So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯
> 
> (Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 751976
> View attachment 751977


OMG,

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## 52051

With the banning of most of the Chinese language military related forum, its quiet funny that now I need to keep my knowledge WRT China military updated in a Pakistan defense forum.

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## casual

Deino said:


> Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!
> 
> So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯
> 
> (Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 751976
> View attachment 751977


looks like a ps to me. can't describe it but it looks funny.


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!
> 
> So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯
> 
> (Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 751976
> View attachment 751977


_This is an exciting moment. 
Is it in serial ptoduction yet? _


----------



## clibra

Deino said:


> Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!
> 
> So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯
> 
> (Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 751976
> View attachment 751977



PS PTSD

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## Beast

Finally, hope for militarize version of C919...

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## Deino

clibra said:


> PS PTSD




PTSD ??? That means?


CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _This is an exciting moment.
> Is it in serial ptoduction yet? _




No, it is only the well-known prototype

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!
> 
> So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯
> 
> (Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 751976
> View attachment 751977



If real this is the clearest image we've got so far.

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## LKJ86

Via 八一电视 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## sheik

Deino said:


> Hopefully not once again psed but IMO it looks real!
> 
> So far the bet two images of the WS-20-powered Y-20B prototype no. 7810. 😯
> 
> (Image via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 751976
> View attachment 751977



IMHO it makes little sense by releasing two pictures of the same object in the same environment at the same time if one wants to convince/mislead others by PS.


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## UKBengali

casual said:


> looks like a ps to me. can't describe it but it looks funny.




I am not sure that this is PS as the lighting and shadows look very real after I spent minutes studying them in detail.

The "funny" look comes from the distortion due probably to the pollution and sunlight acting together.

Most PS images are given away as they have bad lighting and shadows that does not correlate to what would be expected in the real world.


@Deino


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## ZeEa5KPul

Video of Y-20 with WS-20 engines in flight.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402996262039785492This should settle it.

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## waja2000

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Video of Y-20 with WS-20 engines in flight.
> This should settle it.



Hopefully test flight new engine don't take too long. wish with in 1 year

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## Deino

waja2000 said:


> Hopefully test flight new engine don't take too long. wish with in 1 year




Do you really think, that flight testing of a completely new engine not yet in service anywhere on a new version will only last one year?

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## jaybird

Deino said:


> PTSD ??? That means?
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is only the well-known prototype



PTSD: clibra meant Post traumatic stress disorder from too many Photoshop photos from the past, that people start question reality even when real photos are posted.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Do you really think, that flight testing of a completely new engine not yet in service anywhere on a new version will only last one year?


I don't think they are testing a completely new engine. If not, they would have strap 2 D30kp and 2 WS-20 together combo which is much safer for a 4 engines plane.

More like this is just a simple routine QC check before final handover to production unit to fitted on new Y-20. It will not take long.

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## GiantPanda

The bill of the testing was done for years on the Il-76LL testbed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/944024337249644544
Four WS-20s on a Y-20 is way past engine testing but is rather calibration of engine and plane. This can go into production fairly quickly unless there are issues.

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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Video of Y-20 with WS-20 engines in flight.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402996262039785492This should settle it.

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Do you really think, that flight testing of a completely new engine not yet in service anywhere on a new version will only last one year?


I think new engine has been tested for quite a while, otherwise they will not replace all 4 engines on Y-20.

Initially they only replace 1 engine out of 4 on IL-76


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## Deino

vi-va said:


> I think new engine has been tested for quite a while, otherwise they will not replace all 4 engines on Y-20.
> 
> Initially they only replace 1 engine out of 4 on IL-76




Yes for sure, but it is one thing to test an engine so that it is mature to be tested on its definitive aircraft - this part is surely concluded - and a second one to rush thru all operational trials with a new engine and this part is surely not done yet.

As such, I'm sure the engine runs reliably under regular flight characteristics but has it been tested frontline, under rough field conditions, hot&high and does it run reliably under these operational conditions too? IMO this was not yet done and will surely take longer than one year.


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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Yes for sure, but it is one thing to test an engine so that it is mature to be tested on its definitive aircraft - this part is surely concluded - and a second one to rush thru all operational trials with a new engine and this part is surely not done yet.
> 
> As such, I'm sure the engine runs reliably under regular flight characteristics but has it been tested frontline, under rough field conditions, hot&high and does it run reliably under these operational conditions too? IMO this was not yet done and will surely take longer than one year.


Reliable test can be done on IL-76. I think it's more about aerodynamics test of WS-20 integration with Y-20


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## Deino

vi-va said:


> Reliable test can be done on IL-76. I think it's more about aerodynamics test of WS-20 integration with Y-20




But no operational-like tests were done with the WS-20, at least not with a Il-76 using four WS-20s


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## lcloo

Below is from Huitong's Chinese Military Aviation:-

" A recent news (*November 2020*) suggested that a *Y-20B* prototype (*S/N **7810*) powered by the indigenous WS-20 turbofans made her *maiden flight*. It features a flood light mounted on the leading edge of the vertical fin, probably for night operation (inflight refueling?) purpose "

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Y-20 equipped with WS-20 engines




Via @Oneninety from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @铁肩重拳 from Weixin

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 752258


The Y-20 looks so much better with the appropriate high bypass WS-20s compared to the skinny D-30KP-2s.

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412634551365427203


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## Deino

As far as I remember this is the so far clearest image of a Y-20U tanker. Clearly visible are the two wing-mounted IFR-pods but also the unique centreline station.

From the huge flag on its tail it is most likely a / the (?) prototype.

(Image via HNAPA)

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## LKJ86

Via @西部空天 from Weibo


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## LKJ86




----------



## ahtan_china



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## Deino

What's the meaning of this?


----------



## Najaf A. Changezi

Can we see these aircrafts in PAF colours sooner than later??


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## Scorpiooo

Najaf A. Changezi said:


> Can we see these aircrafts in PAF colours sooner than later??


Not in near future, PAF have some other priorities

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## jaybird

Deino said:


> What's the meaning of this?



@lcloo is good at decipher and interpreting these type of images. Maybe he will know. I only see the picture as just a little humor.

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## lcloo

jaybird said:


> @lcloo is good at decipher and interpreting these type of images. Maybe he will know. I only see the picture as just a little humor.


I also think it is just for a little humor. No significant hidden message, other than 4 new type engines have flown on a Y20.

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## Bossman

Aspirations for a high bypass turbofans.

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## CAPRICORN-88

And they are shaped like barrels.

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## CAPRICORN-88

*Maker of China's Y-20 large transport plane gives a hint about the aircraft's future engines*
By 
Liu Xuanzun
Published: Jul 19, 2021 02:07 AM

[IMG alt="A Y-20 large transport aircraft attached to an aviation division under the PLA Western Theater Command flies at a predetermined altitude during a flight training mission on January 4, 2021. (eng.chianmil.com.cn/Photo by Liu Shu)
"]https://www.globaltimes.cn/Portals/...474ae7-6673-448d-84d9-4ac96f6dcdd3.jpeg[/IMG]
A Y-20 large transport aircraft attached to an aviation division under the PLA Western Theater Command flies at a predetermined altitude during a flight training mission on January 4, 2021. Photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn

*China's Y-20 large transport aircraft is expected to switch to domestically developed engines with a high bypass ratio, according to media reports after the aircraft's maker gave a hint in a cartoon.*

The official Weibo account of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the maker of the Y-20, released last week a cartoon of the Y-20 with four big wine barrels covering its engines.

The wine barrels resemble engines with a high bypass ratio and the cartoon could be a hint that the Y-20 will soon be equipped with this type of engines, eastday.com, a Shanghai-based news website, reported on Friday.

Unverified photos and videos of a Y-20 with serial number 7810 have been circulating on social media since this year. The engines of this particular Y-20, dubbed by military observers as the WS-20, are shorter but have a larger diameter than the current ones in service, meaning they have a higher bypass ratio, the eastday.com report said, noting that the AVIC's Weibo post could be the first confirmation on these speculations.

The bypass ratio on turbofan engines refers to the ratio between the air flow of the bypass stream and the air flow entering the core. An engine with a high bypass ratio is shorter but with a larger diameter, eastday.com said.

Usually, engines with a high bypass ratio are larger but consume less fuel, making it suitable for long-range transport aircrafts while engines with a low bypass ratio are used on fighter jets, the report said, noting that the Y-20s currently in service are equipped with engines with a medium bypass ratio and their power and fuel efficiency are not optimal.

With the new engines, the Y-20 will get a boost in not only range and endurance, but also in cargo capacity, eastday.com predicted.

In a program aired by China Central Television in November 2020, Chinese military experts also revealed some new information on the WS-20. Song Xinzhi, one of the experts, mentioned that compared with the Russian D-30 engine currently used on the Y-20, the Chinese engine is much larger in diameter and can provide more powerful thrust, uses less fuel, and enables the plane to take off and land in shorter runways.

In the future, the Y-20 will be produced in large numbers using Chinese-developed engines to serve as a platform that can be developed into different variants, like an aerial tanker or an early warning aircraft, Wei Dongxu, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times.

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429692380005949441

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## 艹艹艹

PLAAF Y20 in Laos

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## johncliu88

So happy to see the Y-20's are flying everywhere.

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## lcloo

Y20 flying to unknown destination in Africa.

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## Deino

Finally … 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434023186203648003

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Finally …
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434023186203648003


Would be great addition specifically once got production with Chinese engine for international market


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## GiantPanda

Scorpiooo said:


> Would be great addition specifically once got production with Chinese engine for international market



It is just a matter of time with the Y-20B/WS-20.

The engine sea-change in China began with the WS-10 and the J-11B. Momentum will be greater as each year passes by when engines like the WS-20, WS-13, WS-15, WS-19 and even more WS-10 variants rev up.

In fact, there is no more exciting place than China for aircraft engine. No one else has that many projects in place.

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## Polestar 2

From horse mouth, currently new domestic (WS-20) engine are installing on new Y-20.

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## sahureka2



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## Super Falcon

Pak should buy them we have over used and depended on Hercules

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## Scorpiooo

Super Falcon said:


> Pak should buy them we have over used and depended on Hercules


They are different class


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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> From horse mouth, currently new domestic (WS-20) engine are installing on new Y-20.




Actually I don‘t think that‘s correct. At Zhuhai the cheIAF designer himself noted, that currently two domestic engines are in test. As such this is surely the WS-20 but less obvious IMO also the WS-18 and since the Y-20B&WS-20 is quite early in the test phase I see in fact no chance that they are already producing WS-20-powered Y-20Bs. The WS-18 however is de facto a modernised, slightly improved D-30KP-2 and much more progressed in test, so IMO it can only be this one.


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## world of power

Deino said:


> Actually I don‘t think that‘s correct. At Zhuhai the cheIAF designer himself noted, that currently two domestic engines are in test. As such this is surely the WS-20 but less obvious IMO also the WS-18 and since the Y-20B&WS-20 is quite early in the test phase I see in fact no chance that they are already producing WS-20-powered Y-20Bs. The WS-18 however is de facto a modernised, slightly improved D-30KP-2 and much more progressed in test, so IMO it can only be this one.


we do NOT know exactly how progress is;; but based on the confirmed evidence so far, the high bypass engine WS20 is undergoing the final process for application of aircrafts;; technically it would take few years thus we would see many beautiful big birds with WS20 in the upcoming years



in addition many reported that it completed the development of the WS18 in the late 2014 (WS-18, new type of aircraft engine successfully test in a large aircraft | Errymath) and has installed it to large aircrafts (H6 & Y20) since 2017 thus obviously the WS18 test phase was completely over and is currently under production phase as much needed;; so yes it would be WS18 in the Y20 flight video


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## DJ_Viper

Deino said:


> As far as I remember this is the so far clearest image of a Y-20U tanker. Clearly visible are the two wing-mounted IFR-pods but also the unique centreline station.
> 
> From the huge flag on its tail it is most likely a / the (?) prototype.
> 
> (Image via HNAPA)
> 
> View attachment 761176



How many Y-20's exist in total?


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## GiantPanda

Deino said:


> Actually I don‘t think that‘s correct. At Zhuhai the cheIAF designer himself noted, that currently two domestic engines are in test. As such this is surely the WS-20 but less obvious IMO also the WS-18 and since the Y-20B&WS-20 is quite early in the test phase I see in fact no chance that they are already producing WS-20-powered Y-20Bs. The WS-18 however is de facto a modernised, slightly improved D-30KP-2 and much more progressed in test, so IMO it can only be this one.



WS-18 might not be a "new" engine on the Y-20. I think the new engine being refered to is the WS-20 since we already had an all-WS-20 prototype.

The WS-18 is more geared towards the new H-6 variants.


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## Deino

GiantPanda said:


> WS-18 might not be a "new" engine on the Y-20. I think the new engine being refered to is the WS-20 since we already had an all-WS-20 prototype.
> 
> The WS-18 is more geared towards the new H-6 variants.




But the Y-20‘s chief designer mentioned two new engines which in fact can only be the WS-18 and WS-20 … as such it seems he is rating the WS-18 a „new“ engine and at least I cannot think of yet another new engine since there is none.


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## Daniel808

DJ_Viper said:


> How many Y-20's exist in total?



Chinese wiki said, more than 50
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国人民解放军空军
And they still pumping up this thing from Factory

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## lcloo

Daniel808 said:


> Chinese wiki said, more than 50
> https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国人民解放军空军
> And they still pumping up this thing from Factory


Yes, that number is quite accurate.

Google Earth Photos of aircraft factory in Yanliang, Xi'an, from around end 2018, end 2019 and end 2020 each showed more than 15 Y20, including some prototypes. There should be more than 40 serial production Y20s from these 3 annual images.

And there were unknown number of low rate production from 2016 and 2017.

Production rate in 2021 should be higher than previous years, including aerial refueling tanker variant Y20U.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454415183049265161

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## Beast

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1454415183049265161


I am wondering why WS-20 engine is not shown during Zuhai 2021 airshow?

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## Deino

Beast said:


> I am wondering why WS-20 engine is not shown during Zuhai 2021 airshow?




Me too


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Me too


Secret... China trump card!

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## luciferdd

Beast said:


> I am wondering why WS-20 engine is not shown during Zuhai 2021 airshow?


Keep something new for zhuhai-airshow 2022

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457344639506128915

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## Shotgunner51

Beast said:


> I am wondering why WS-20 engine is not shown during Zuhai 2021 airshow?


Only active duty weapons are exhibited at Zuhai Airshow or military parade, seems like a practice. Perhaps Y-20B is too new, wait for 2022.

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458052789708341248

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

China has begun serial production of Y-20U, filling a notable gap in the power projection capabilities of its air force.

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> China has begun serial production of Y-20U, filling a notable gap in the power projection capabilities of its air force.
> View attachment 793923




Minor correction ... this is not a serial aircraft - just look at the prototype no. 787 and the huge red flag - but a prototype. However production is already underway since some longer time and the first ones are already in service.


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## StraightEdge

Question for aviation experts - why can't these same engines be used for civilian aircrafts? I understand design is different, but is it more economical to design a totally new engine for civilian aircrafts?


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## vi-va

StraightEdge said:


> Question for aviation experts - why can't these same engines be used for civilian aircrafts? I understand design is different, but is it more economical to design a totally new engine for civilian aircrafts?


The civil one and military one can be the same one, with some minor changes for sure, as long as the requirements specs are the same.

The military one safety standard usually can be a bit lower, versus civilian safety standard is quite high. 

If Y-20 engine has 99.9% reliability, which means one of the four engines of Y-20 may stop working in 1,000 taking off and landing. It's totally acceptable.

C-919 engine may need 99.999%+ reliability. Do the math, if you are operating 1000 c-919 daily in China, and each of them make 2 taking off and landing per day. In one year, you have 700,000 landing and taking off.

99.999% reliability means 7 times of engine stop working per year. C-919 has only 2 engines, one engine stop working can be handled by design, but still dangerous. 7 times of engine stop working per year means the civilian jet failed in the market. No one dare to take it.

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## Beast

vi-va said:


> The civil one and military one can be the same one, with some minor changes for sure, as long as the requirements specs are the same.
> 
> The military one safety standard usually can be a bit lower, versus civilian safety standard is quite high.
> 
> If Y-20 engine has 99.9% reliability, which means one of the four engines of Y-20 may stop working in 1,000 taking off and landing. It's totally acceptable.
> 
> C-919 engine may need 99.999%+ reliability. Do the math, if you are operating 1000 c-919 daily in China, and each of them make 2 taking off and landing per day. In one year, you have 700,000 landing and taking off.
> 
> 99.999% reliability means 7 times of engine stop working per year. C-919 has only 2 engines, one engine stop working can be handled by design, but still dangerous. 7 times of engine stop working per year means the civilian jet failed in the market. No one dare to take it.


Not necessary military one has lower spec than civilian. The CFM-56 used on C-17 need to withstand sandstorm or highly dusty environment due to need to land on unpave runaway. While civilian do not as they always land on well maintain international runaway.

Of cos, civilian CFM-56 used on Airbus or Boeing need to emit less noise compare to one used on C-17.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Not necessary military one has lower spec than civilian. The CFM-56 used on C-17 need to withstand sandstorm or highly dusty environment due to need to land on unpave runaway. While civilian do not as they always land on well maintain international runaway.
> 
> Of cos, civilian CFM-56 used on Airbus or Boeing need to emit less noise compare to one used on C-17.




Minor nit-pick correction: The C-17 does not use CFM-56 but Pratt & Whitney F117-PW-100 turbofan engines, which are a military variant of the PW2000 but otherwise I agree with you.

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## vi-va

Beast said:


> Not necessary military one has lower spec than civilian. The CFM-56 used on C-17 need to withstand sandstorm or highly dusty environment due to need to land on unpave runaway. While civilian do not as they always land on well maintain international runaway.
> 
> Of cos, civilian CFM-56 used on Airbus or Boeing need to emit less noise compare to one used on C-17.


@Deino
My original post is civilian engine safety standard is higher, my point still stands.

Yes, military one has some special requirement, as you pointed out. But do you know C-17 taking off and landing in high dust environment will damage the engine very badly? It will need special maintenance, replace parts, clean the dust, and so on. 

Taking off and landing in a high dust environment is not a standard C-17 tactic, it's allowed with preconditions A, B, C and so on. The cost is quite high.

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## Deino

Finally!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464894549743083522

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Finally!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464894549743083522



What is important or different about this version ?


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## serenity

Ali_Baba said:


> What is important or different about this version ?



It is a refueling plane.

Y-20 will have three main types, transport, refueling, and AWACS. Maybe also include electronic warfare and command aircraft too in future due to importance of controlling Dark Sword UCAV not just by J-20B and J-16 fighters.

WS-20 engines would give it even more available power for those electronic attack roles or allow a more powerful radar similar in size to KJ-2000 but just more modern.

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## Super Falcon

Dont know why pak not buying these jets
These are backbone of any airforce


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## Shotgunner51

serenity said:


> It is a refueling plane.
> 
> Y-20 will have three main types, transport, refueling, and AWACS. Maybe also include electronic warfare and command aircraft too in future due to importance of controlling Dark Sword UCAV not just by J-20B and J-16 fighters.
> 
> WS-20 engines would give it even more available power for those electronic attack roles or allow a more powerful radar similar in size to KJ-2000 but just more modern.


Yes Y-20 will serve as platform for tanker and AWACS, though I hope a civilian-platform covert like C919/929 can join the service in the long run. WS-20 engines should be ready soon, recall this exiting video earlier this year:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403053200870051842

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## Super Falcon

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yes Y-20 will serve as platform for tanker and AWACS, though I hope a civilian-platform covert like C919/929 can join the service in the long run. WS-20 engines should be ready soon, recall this exiting video earlier this year:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403053200870051842


It was 16 yrs ago we bought cargo aircraft from indonesia C 295

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## Beast

Super Falcon said:


> Dont know why pak not buying these jets
> These are backbone of any airforce


I dont think Y-20 is available for sales yet.


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## Super Falcon

Beast said:


> I dont think Y-20 is available for sales yet.


They are because china using 3D modeling system to manufacre them quikly if paf order we can buy them if lethal chinese j 31 is available dont think that would be an issue

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## FuturePAF

Super Falcon said:


> Dont know why pak not buying these jets
> These are backbone of any airforce


Higher operating costs then turboprop transports, but probably also waiting for the design to be mature enough (probably around making sure the engines are reliable enough) to avoid dealing with teething pains the PLAAF maybe experiencing with the type.

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## Beast

FuturePAF said:


> Higher operating costs then turboprop transports, but probably also waiting for the design to be mature enough (probably around making sure the engines are reliable enough) to avoid dealing with teething pains the PLAAF maybe experiencing with the type.


I dont think this kind of huge transport plane shall not buy blindly. As what you mention, they have high operating cost due to 4 turbofan. They are only needed when need to transport overweight stuff like MBT. 

Of cos the advantage of turbofan will be payload and flying speed.


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## Deino

Super Falcon said:


> They are because china using 3D modeling system to manufacre them quikly if paf order we can buy them if lethal chinese j 31 is available dont think that would be an issue




Come on ... the reason since China is using 3D modeling is proof that the Y-20 is for sale? I must admit I find all your latest posts to put it mildly at best weird and strange, to say it clear, completely off and proof that you havE NO understanding of what you say!

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Come on ... the reason since China is using 3D modeling is proof that the Y-20 is for sale? I must admit I find all your latest posts to put it mildly at best weird and strange, to say it clear, completely off and proof that you havE NO understanding of what you say!


He is a troll and always badmouth about China.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> He is a troll and always badmouth about China.




I know, but he behaves like being an "Elite Member"! ... however he misses this:

New fighter for PAF Doctrine? | Page 572 | Pakistan Defence


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## Super Falcon

Deino said:


> Come on ... the reason since China is using 3D modeling is proof that the Y-20 is for sale? I must admit I find all your latest posts to put it mildly at best weird and strange, to say it clear, completely off and proof that you havE NO understanding of what you say!


Do u have any personal issue with me let me know forbur satisfaction i will deal with u personally 

Every time you are trolling me and i challange you dont have any knowledge either


Beast said:


> He is a troll and always badmouth about China.


When did i criticised china


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## Deino

Super Falcon said:


> Do u have any personal issue with me let me know forbur satisfaction i will deal with u personally
> 
> Every time you are trolling me and i challange you dont have any knowledge either
> 
> When did i criticised china




No, I have nothing against you personally, but you portray yourself a a big expert and "elite member" based on your alleged vast experience ... in fact all You latest comments regarding the J-10C, its engines and so on to say it mildly are strange and wired or to say it loud and clearly "You know nothing". Even more you are not admitting your faults and learn, instead you are in return posting strange comments to mock others as if "you were only quoting common knowledge!"

And concerning Your last comment and claim "you don#t have any knowledge either"; this is may proof your claim.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467151803754156035








Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Army AviationAircraft and Units


Author: Andreas RupprechtReviewer: Colonel Jayson Altieri, USA, Retired



www.airuniversity.af.edu

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## FuturePAF

Beast said:


> I dont think this kind of huge transport plane shall not buy blindly. As what you mention, they have high operating cost due to 4 turbofan. They are only needed when need to transport overweight stuff like MBT.
> 
> Of cos the advantage of turbofan will be payload and flying speed.


Mostly probably only acquired in limited numbers and only when the IL-78s are to be retired. Probably a fleet of 6 in a decade or so, two for each of the three Air Force sectors of the PAF; North, Central and South

Pakistan probably needs more twin engine turboprops to move around key pieces of logistics to austere bases or motorways.
Something like single engine Cessana Caravans as well as C-295s, to implement distributed lethality systems like just in time mobilization of drone swarms to the frontlines.


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## Super Falcon

Deino said:


> No, I have nothing against you personally, but you portray yourself a a big expert and "elite member" based on your alleged vast experience ... in fact all You latest comments regarding the J-10C, its engines and so on to say it mildly are strange and wired or to say it loud and clearly "You know nothing". Even more you are not admitting your faults and learn, instead you are in return posting strange comments to mock others as if "you were only quoting common knowledge!"
> 
> And concerning Your last comment and claim "you don#t have any knowledge either"; this is may proof your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467151803754156035
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Army AviationAircraft and Units
> 
> 
> Author: Andreas RupprechtReviewer: Colonel Jayson Altieri, USA, Retired
> 
> 
> 
> www.airuniversity.af.edu


Where did i potray im elite member do u lost ur mind i only smell jealousy in you

Probleum is with u dont believe on healthy debate


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## Deino

Super Falcon said:


> Where did i potray im elite member do u lost ur mind i only smell jealousy in you
> 
> Probleum is with u dont believe on healthy debate




There is nothing to debate based on false claims. This would be as if you claim the sky is green and anyone knows it is blue but you insist for a "healthy debate"! Claiming all J-10Cs especially current production ones are using Russian engines or the Y-20 would be for sale since they use 3D printing is like claiming the sky is green. So no need to discuss.

And as for jealousy, I'm surly not jealous for you.

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## Super Falcon

Deino said:


> There is nothing to debate based on false claims. This would be as if you claim the sky is green and anyone knows it is blue but you insist for a "healthy debate"! Claiming all J-10Cs especially current production ones are using Russian engines or the Y-20 would be for sale since they use 3D printing is like claiming the sky is green. So no need to discuss.
> 
> And as for jealousy, I'm surly not jealous for you.


Do u have any sracks in j 10 sales other wise u keep fighting me i dont impose my self dont agree with me but ur fighting here trolling contnously

Keep saying im saying that im elite member do u answer that


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## Deino

Super Falcon said:


> Do u have any sracks in j 10 sales other wise u keep fighting me i dont impose my self dont agree with me but ur fighting here trolling contnously
> 
> Keep saying im saying that im elite member do u answer that




Why do you demand any „sracks“ - by the way what does this mean - on J-10 sales, when anyone knows, there are so far no sales? Again you are claiming the sky is green … and only try to divert the discussion away from your blatant errors.

As such I#m not trolling, I‘m correcting you stupid claims and mistakes and in fact I don‘t know why you even insist in such BS? In fact You are the one who‘s trolling.


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## lcloo

I doubt China will export Y20 with Russian engines because there will be opposition from Russia, as this will be a competition with IL-76.

The first export of Y20 will probably be several years after new Chinese engines (WS-20) are fitted, and only when the foreign buyers are confident that the domestic engines have reached maturity.

Also, China has a large demand for airlifting due to current geopolitical situations in Western highlands and islands on the East, Xi'an AVIC will have to prioritize satisfying the domestic orders for Y20.

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## ozranger

lcloo said:


> I doubt China will export Y20 with Russian engines because there will be opposition from Russia, as this will be a competition with IL-76.
> 
> The first export of Y20 will probably be several years after new Chinese engines (WS-20) are fitted, and only when the foreign buyers are confident that the domestic engines have reached maturity.
> 
> Also, China has a large demand for airlifting due to current geopolitical situations in Western highlands and islands on the East, Xi'an AVIC will have to prioritize satisfying the domestic orders for Y20.



Russia has sold blueprint of D-30KP-2 engine to China. Chengdu Engine Group is now responsible on manufacturing and further improving this engine. H-6K is also using the same engine. It's been named as WS-18 in China. So there shouldn't be problems for export.


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## world of power

@Super Falcon @FuturePAF
again pakistan fanboys should know that pakistan has neither money nor any technology; plus it is even politically isolated because US, europe, russia all friendly with india, likely against pakistan, only neighboring china friendly; despite of all, they sound like they have choice and always keep suspicious of chinese technology no matter what is like; they also sound like everything from china is almost free and pakistan can get it whenever necessary; please note that chinese arms is surely neither like indian tejas nor free; again everything is up to china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC)


Beast said:


> He is a troll and always badmouth about China.


surely because he is among pakistani and pakistan does NOT respect china; chinese boys also should know that most pakistani call china 'alliance' which actually means 'everything is free from china' and that's how they understand the alliance with china; pakistan just want free money and goods from china; pakistan is only full of the poor and even many pakistan elite escape to western for living;; so far it seems china also just want pakistani gateway to Indian Ocean for its shorter trade route; chinese should understand that two are different by region, race, language, and even key interests, so pakistan CAN'T be part of chinese ideal; thus it is important for china to just focus on china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC)

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## luciferdd

ozranger said:


> Russia has sold blueprint of D-30KP-2 engine to China. Chengdu Engine Group is now responsible on manufacturing and further improving this engine. H-6K is also using the same engine. It's been named as WS-18 in China. So there shouldn't be problems for export.


But ws-20 is better,right?So,waiting 2~3 years for Y-20B with WS-20 is worth.

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## Shotgunner51

lcloo said:


> I doubt China will export Y20 with Russian engines because there will be opposition from Russia, as this will be a competition with IL-76.
> 
> The first export of Y20 will probably be several years after new Chinese engines (WS-20) are fitted, and only when the foreign buyers are confident that the domestic engines have reached maturity.
> 
> Also, China has a large demand for airlifting due to current geopolitical situations in Western highlands and islands on the East, Xi'an AVIC will have to prioritize satisfying the domestic orders for Y20.


PLAAF has a huge demand for Y-20, I guess in hundreds. But the rate of production is still low, perhaps waiting for WS-20 becos only with which Y-20 can perform short field takeoff/landing, dirt/unpaved airstrip takeoff/landing, maximum rated payload/range as designed.

Before number of WS-20 equipped Y-20 reaches few hundreds (all variants like AWAC & tanker included) in PLAAF, chance of export is minimal.

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## FuturePAF

world of power said:


> @Super Falcon @FuturePAF
> again pakistan fanboys should know that pakistan has neither money nor any technology; plus it is even politically isolated because US, europe, russia all friendly with india, likely against pakistan, only neighboring china friendly; despite of all, they sound like they have choice and always keep suspicious of chinese technology no matter what is like; they also sound like everything from china is almost free and pakistan can get it whenever necessary; please note that chinese arms is surely neither like indian tejas nor free; again everything is up to china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC)
> 
> surely because he is among pakistani and pakistan does NOT respect china; chinese boys also should know that most pakistani call china 'alliance' which actually means 'everything is free from china' and that's how they understand the alliance with china; pakistan just want free money and goods from china; pakistan is only full of the poor and even many pakistan elite escape to western for living;; so far it seems china also just want pakistani gateway to Indian Ocean for its shorter trade route; chinese should understand that two are different by region, race, language, and even key interests, so pakistan CAN'T be part of chinese ideal; thus it is important for china to just focus on china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC)



If you hadn’t notice, this is a Pakistan Defense Forum. What do you think would be discussed here?

Read the posts above, the question is about buying the Y-20, and if it fits into the requirements and budget. No one thinks it will be free, only you. The PAF Il-78 were from Ukraine, and I’m sure there are other western suppliers that would make bids if Pakistan opened up a tender. All products are evaluated in open competition, just like the attack helicopter tender. Pakistan has experience operating equipment on the battlefield in recent years, so its input is its contribution in R&D. Chinese arms have improved in every field, and have won tenders on merit, which is why Pakistan is the number one customer.

If you think Pakistan doesn’t respect China, then you don’t know Pakistan. Pakistan was the first country to recognize the PRC, and even helped broker the back channel meeting between Kissinger and Mao, leading to the opening to China, and China re-entering the global fold, especially economically.

If you think you have to be of the same Race, Region, Language to be “Ideal” partners and to be able to share interests you don’t understand geopolitics.


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## SD 10

world of power said:


> @Super Falcon @FuturePAF
> again pakistan fanboys should know that pakistan has neither money nor any technology; plus it is even politically isolated because US, europe, russia all friendly with india, likely against pakistan, only neighboring china friendly; despite of all, they sound like they have choice and always keep suspicious of chinese technology no matter what is like; they also sound like everything from china is almost free and pakistan can get it whenever necessary; please note that chinese arms is surely neither like indian tejas nor free; again everything is up to china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC)
> 
> surely because he is among pakistani and pakistan does NOT respect china; chinese boys also should know that most pakistani call china 'alliance' which actually means 'everything is free from china' and that's how they understand the alliance with china; pakistan just want free money and goods from china; pakistan is only full of the poor and even many pakistan elite escape to western for living;; so far it seems china also just want pakistani gateway to Indian Ocean for its shorter trade route; chinese should understand that two are different by region, race, language, and even key interests, so pakistan CAN'T be part of chinese ideal; thus it is important for china to just focus on china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC)


oh poor boy... who hurt you

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## Deino

Guys ... can we stick to the topic and here related to the PLA? 
Any future PAF purchase of the Y-20 -which in fact won't exclude - should be discussed in the PAF section.

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## Shotgunner51

Several green Y-20 spotted with likely WS-20 engines (which has a large diameter or high bypass ratio)
(See watermark for WB source)

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> Several green Y-20 spotted with likely WS-20 engines (which has a large diameter or high bypass ratio)
> (See watermark for WB source)
> 
> View attachment 808135
> View attachment 808136




But IMO the most interesting detail is one of the Y-20Bs, since it appears to feature IFR-pods, which would make it a WS-20 powered Y-20B-based tanker variant (Y-20BU ?). 

(Images via @捣蛋就捣蛋 from Weibo)

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> But IMO the most interesting detail is one of the Y-20Bs, since it appears to feature IFR-pods, which would make it a WS-20 powered Y-20B-based tanker variant (Y-20BU ?).
> 
> (Images via @捣蛋就捣蛋 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 808169


Yes bro this very likely is a tanker. It's a good sign that WS-20 maybe ready to service so Y-20 can fully achieve its designed capabilities.

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## lcloo

Yanliang airfield GE map dated November 2021 shows 23 large transports consist of serial productions and proto types Y20 and may be 1 or 2 IL-76 test-beds.

IMO, at least 15 of these are serial production Y20 transport and aerial tankers. The rest of 8 or so aircraft are either proto type or test-bed.

And in 2022 full year, a minimun number of Y20 transport entering PLAAF service could be at least 24, including 2021 year end and 2022 production aircraft.

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## lcloo

Yanliang airfield November 2021. Total number of large transport planes.

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## JSCh

Two Y-20 delivering humanitarian aids to Tonga.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486514112959893504

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> Guys ... can we stick to the topic and here related to the PLA?
> Any future PAF purchase of the Y-20 -which in fact won't exclude - should be discussed in the PAF section.



I think Pakistan no needs too much range and load. The maintenance of Y20 is also troublesome.
Maybe Pakistan should consider Y9 instead of Y20.
Pakistan's ZDK-03 early warning aircraft uses the Y9 platform. PAF can easily maintain Y9.

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## Shotgunner51

First Y-20 arrived at Tonga with disaster relief aids, second jet on the way.

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## Char

Shotgunner51 said:


> First Y-20 arrived at Tonga with disaster relief aids, second jet on the way.
> 
> View attachment 811609
> View attachment 811610
> View attachment 811611
> View attachment 811612



Didn't refuel during the flight?


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## Shotgunner51

Char said:


> Didn't refuel during the flight?


Yes likely a direct flight without stopover.

The jets departed from Guangzhou, that's where the reserve depot for Pacific (China-Pacific Island Countries Reserve of Emergency Supplies) is located. The reserve depot was launched on 3 Dec last year.



Vice Foreign Minister Xie Feng Attends the Launching Ceremony of China-Pacific Island Countries Reserve of Emergency Supplies

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## Deino

Char said:


> Didn't refuel during the flight?



During the flight is impossible since the Y20 is not capable to receive fuel

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## sheik

Deino said:


> During the flight is impossible since the Y20 is not capable to receive fuel



There seemed to be two stops in the middle. Introduction of WS-20 may reduce that to one though.

Flying to some unfamiliar place with unclear weather and airport conditions made this task kind of risky and the planning and route choice must be conservative.
The crew must keep enough fuel and be prepared to actually use the backup airports that may be far away from the destination on a small Pacific island.
It's not to test max range anyway.


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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> During the flight is impossible since the Y20 is not capable to receive fuel


But in future may be from Y20U tankers they can be fuelled


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## Dungeness

sheik said:


> There seemed to be *two stops* in the middle. Introduction of WS-20 may reduce that to one though.
> 
> Flying to some unfamiliar place with unclear weather and airport conditions made this task kind of risky and the planning and route choice must be conservative.
> The crew must keep enough fuel and be prepared to actually use the backup airports that may be far away from the destination on a small Pacific island.
> It's not to test max range anyway.



Three stops.

"空中运输编队飞行途中曾3次经停沿途国家机场加油。执行本次空中运输任务的空军某部保障部部长边玉风告诉记者，“这次赴汤加运送救灾物资，航程远，地形、气象、机场环境复杂，但是我们全体机组人员团结奋战，克服困难，坚决完成好此次任务。”

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## Beast

For a big plane like Y-20, mid air refuel capabilities is not that critical. We have seen Z-8F helo fitted with internal fuel tank inside the passenger bay.

If Y-20 is required to a cargo of 25 tons and the item is not such oversize stuff. Surely there is space and payload available to fit an additional fuel tank inside the cargo bay to give it another 3000km-4000km of flying range.

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## Shotgunner51

Green #781 with four WS-20 (HiRes Pic)

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## Scorpiooo

How many Y20 are in service till date any idea


----------



## sheik

Shotgunner51 said:


> Green #781 with four WS-20
> 
> View attachment 812373



Best gift for the Chinese New Year!

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## Shotgunner51

Scorpiooo said:


> How many Y20 are in service till date any idea





Daniel808 said:


> Chinese wiki said, more than *50*
> https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国人民解放军空军
> And they still pumping up this thing from Factory


Quoting from the same source (seems like is updated recently), quantity by now still low at around 70+.
Well I'd like to see more birds flown on new WS-20 engines.

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## Daniel808

Shotgunner51 said:


> Quoting from the same source (seems like is updated recently), quantity by now still low at around 70+.
> Well I'd like to see more birds flown on new WS-20 engines.



Happening at this moment  They are pumping it


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481511414288236548
Btw, Happy Chinese New Year bro @Shotgunner51 

祝大家：新春快乐，虎年吉祥，万事如意，恭喜发财🥳🥳

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## Shotgunner51

Daniel808 said:


> Happening at this moment  They are pumping it





Daniel808 said:


> Btw, Happy Chinese New Year bro @Shotgunner51


Thanks! Same to you bro, 新年快乐, 虎年万事大吉!

I hope they manage the pace in order to maximize the use of WS-20, cos only with this engine the jet will achieve original design purposes such as short range takeoff & landing, ability to operate from unpaved runway, rated payload etc. Well those 70+ without WS-20 are still good for strategic airlift, ferrying between proper airfields, just need some waiting for their turn to retrofit.

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> I hope they manage the pace in order to maximize the use of WS-20, cos only with this engine the jet will achieve original design purposes such as short range takeoff & landing, ability to operate from unpaved runway, rated payload etc.







Watch from 0.17s onwards. I don't think Y-20 short take off is affected even in current configuration. The very slow progress of WS-20 maybe a big reason to prove WS-20 requirements is not as urgent as it thought.

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## Shotgunner51

Beast said:


> Watch from 0.17s onwards. I don't think Y-20 short take off is affected even in current configuration. The very slow progress of WS-20 maybe a big reason to prove WS-20 requirements is not as urgent as it thought.


Given D-30KP-2 or WS-18 is a stop gap move, this takeoff is not bad indeed! Imagine what this bird can achieve when the originally planned WS-20 is ready.

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> Given D-30KP-2 or WS-18 is a stop gap move, this takeoff is not bad indeed! Imagine what this bird can achieve when the originally planned WS-20 is ready.


I dont expect a big improvement for take off but WS-20 will definitely helps in cargo payload and range improvement.

Btw, this is a take off timing of a IL-76 TD, of cos, we do not know whether there is any payload inside but seems very long required.

Watch from 4:10m onwards.

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## ahtan_china



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## NW-Blue

Shotgunner51 said:


> Green #781 with four WS-20 (HiRes Pic)
> 
> View attachment 812373


 
It's interesting that no one commented on the significance of this photo is the new WS-20 high-pass turbofan engines on this plane. This is a very significant achievement in the continued development of the Y20 production! What this means is that China finally got the new high-pass turbofan engine development mastered, and this will boost power, fuel use efficiency, and enhanced endurance for the Y20 product line - the new planes with this engine will be able to carry heavier loads, fly further and use less fuel, as well as longer engine life. 

I actually saw a friend who has connections to the AVIC post the first flight of this plane with all 4 new high-pass turbofan engines installed a few month ago in my WeChat friends circle, right after the first wave of the Covid pandemic in China got under control and people started returning back to work, sometime in the early summer of last year. He posted a fuzzy photo with this plane on the runway, but I was able to tell that it was the new engines on the plane, and I asked him "are all these the new high-pass engines?", and he replied, "满血复活!" (full blood resurrection!) - meaning that a totally new life started now. 

So congrats to China's aviation industry! - after decades of R&D, now they finally got the indigenes WS-20 high-pass turbofan engine manufacturing under the belt. We are going to see a fleet of this "chubby girl" in the years to come, including variations in AWACS, tankers, and other special purpose heavy carriers. Entirely likely that one of these types find its way to the PAAF in the future. 

https://www.britannica.com/technology/high-bypass-turbofan​

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## GiantPanda

NW-Blue said:


> It's interesting that no one commented on the significance of this photo is the new WS-20 high-pass turbofan engines on this plane. This is a very significant achievement in the continued development of the Y20 production! What this means is that China finally got the new high-pass turbofan engine development mastered, and this will boost power, fuel use efficiency, and enhanced endurance for the Y20 product line - the new planes with this engine will be able to carry heavier loads, fly further and use less fuel, as well as longer engine life.
> 
> I actually saw a friend who has connections to the AVIC post the first flight of this plane with all 4 new high-pass turbofan engines installed a few month ago in my WeChat friends circle, right after the first wave of the Covid pandemic in China got under control and people started returning back to work, sometime in the early summer of last year. He posted a fuzzy photo with this plane on the runway, but I was able to tell that it was the new engines on the plane, and I asked him "are all these the new high-pass engines?", and he replied, "满血复活!" (full blood resurrection!) - meaning that a totally new life started now.
> 
> So congrats to China's aviation industry! - after decades of R&D, now they finally got the indigenes WS-20 high-pass turbofan engine manufacturing under the belt. We are going to see a fleet of this "chubby girl" in the years to come, including variations in AWACS, tankers, and other special purpose heavy carriers. Entirely likely that one of these types find its way to the PAAF in the future.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/technology/high-bypass-turbofan​



Kudos to the those who got the WS-20 onto the Y-20.

But this is the tip of the iceberg. Wait till the CJ1000 comes online for the C919. The high bypass engines for transports and commercial aircraft will create a sea-change in China's aviation industry.

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## Shotgunner51

NW-Blue said:


> significance of this photo is the new WS-20 high-pass turbofan engines on this plane


Indeed this is perhaps a game-changer-level event! It's far more than about boosting Y-20 performance, it's about changing our aviation industry military & commercial.

Look forward to Chinese *civilian jets* powered by WS-20 variant or other high-pass turbofan, and these civilian airframes can be repurposed for military use like tankers, AWAC, ASW, ELINT, etc.

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> Indeed this is perhaps a game-changer-level event! It's far more than about boosting Y-20 performance, it's about changing our aviation industry military & commercial.
> 
> Look forward to Chinese civilian jets powered by WS-20 variant or other high-pass turbofan, and these civilian airframes can be repurposed for military use like tankers, AWAC, ASW, ELINT, etc.


Once the WS-10 is mastered and mature, a lot ball starts rolling. Subsequent high thrust turbofan development will also experience a easy path.

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## JSCh

Photo taken with a mobile phone shows Chinese military aircraft returning to the Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport in Guangzhou, south China's Guangdong Province, on Jan. 29, 2022, after delivering relief supplies to Tonga. (Xinhua/Ding Zengyi)




Noon 9 Feb, returning from Vietnam and Indonesia after delivering medical aids supplies.

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## JSCh

20 ton to Solomon island.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494573819029504000

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## Deino

Best image of a Y-20U so far ...

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## Shotgunner51

Y-20's in an airborne operation training

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## vi-va

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501430445124116483

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## Scorpiooo

So how many Y20u are produced


----------



## Beast

Scorpiooo said:


> So how many Y20u are produced


I think currently 4 the most.

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## truthseeker2010

Beast said:


> I think currently 4 the most.



and overall?


----------



## Beast

truthseeker2010 said:


> and overall?


A few Y-20U tanker are enough to fufil majority of PLAAF over continental needs. PLAAF still operate 3 IL-78 and more than a dozen H-6U.


----------



## truthseeker2010

Beast said:


> A few Y-20U tanker are enough to fufil majority of PLAAF over continental needs. PLAAF still operate 3 IL-78 and more than a dozen H-6U.



i was asking about total no of y-20 produced till now


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## Beast

truthseeker2010 said:


> i was asking about total no of y-20 produced till now


4


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## truthseeker2010

Beast said:


> 4



never mind, going through the thread, i got my answer, its at least 70+ now.


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## Han Patriot

truthseeker2010 said:


> never mind, going through the thread, i got my answer, its at least 70+ now.


4 tanker version, the rest is not Y20U


----------



## Oom

I hope we acquire them to replace Il-78 for heavy lift

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## Han Patriot

Shotgunner51 said:


> Y-20's in an airborne operation training
> 
> View attachment 820129
> View attachment 820132
> View attachment 820133
> View attachment 820134


Yes with night vision which the Russians could get some.


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## Scorpiooo

Mat


Oom said:


> I hope we acquire them to replace Il-78 for heavy lift


Matter of money and secondly they still young


----------



## casual

Han Patriot said:


> Yes with night vision which the Russians could get some.


Those are obviously thermals. Looks to be gen2.


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## Shotgunner51

Plane #11150 of the 12th regiment seems to be in Africa currently, departed from Djibouti for Zambia on March 16 in the morning. Distance about 3300 km.









Credit @East Pendulum

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## CAPRICORN-88

Shotgunner51 said:


> Plane #11150 of the 12th regiment seems to be in Africa currently, departed from Djibouti for Zambia on March 16 in the morning. Distance about 3300 km.
> 
> View attachment 825407
> View attachment 825408
> 
> Credit @East Pendulum


Looking forward to see a Y-20 powered by WS-20 doing that.

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## Shotgunner51

Yanliang aeronautical compound

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yanliang aeronautical compound
> 
> View attachment 826221




Any info when this image was taken?

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## sheik

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yanliang aeronautical compound
> 
> View attachment 826221







2 x KJ-600

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> Any info when this image was taken?


The OP (from Weibo) didn't mention exact date, apparently noon shadows casted on ground are shorter as compared to post #2077 so it could be recent Jan or Feb.

Wow, Y-20B/BU serial production !!!!!!

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## Deino

sheik said:


> View attachment 826287
> 
> 2 x KJ-600




And there is a third one further "right" at the CFTE section 

By the way, GE says, that image was from 2022/03

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## lcloo

Delete


----------



## DF41

A Whopping 20 Y-20 Airlifters Seen At Chinese Aircraft Plant And Test Base


The activity at Yanliang Air Base is yet another glaring reminder that Beijing's military might seems to be on a nearly exponential growth curve.




www.thedrive.com





And that was in Dec 2019. 
How many more since then? 🤣🤣🤣

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## luciferdd

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yanliang aeronautical compound
> 
> View attachment 826221


Why there is one ZDK-03 in the lower right corner....

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## Shotgunner51

luciferdd said:


> Why there is one ZDK-03 in the lower right corner....


System upgrade perhaps? But it could be an AWAC testbed of CFTE (Chinese Flight Test Establishment), can't be sure.

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## lcloo

Shotgunner51 said:


> System upgrade perhaps? But it could be an AWAC testbed of CFTE (Chinese Flight Test Establishment), can't be sure.


Most likely a testbed. This ZDK-03 was spotted in a Google Earth image dated January 29th, 2021, and has been parked there since then to the latest GE image dated this month.

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## LKJ86

Via @共青团中央 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Scorpiooo

Y20U is tanker only is convertible dual purpose like IL78


----------



## johncliu88

Still don't see any of the Y-20's with WS-20 engines.

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## GiantPanda

johncliu88 said:


> Still don't see any of the Y-20's with WS-20 engines.



We're not sure if the Y-20(B?) with WS-20 is even in general production yet. Most likely in a limited series run which would mean a handful of planes for operational testing so no chance of regular units using it to do real work yet.

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## lcloo

GiantPanda said:


> We're not sure if the Y-20(B?) with WS-20 is even in general production yet. Most likely in a limited series run which would mean a handful of planes for operational testing so no chance of regular units using it to do real work yet.


Indeed, March 2022 satellite images of CFTE in Yanliang shows that they are still testing the proto types of Y20B with WS-20 engines..


----------



## LKJ86

Via @哈库纳玛塔塔_就是我 from Weibo















Via @梦见玲娜贝儿的小婷酱 from Weibo

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## ahtan_china



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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @利刃斩海飞剪艏 from Weibo

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## Daniel808

Double Decker


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512420353293041669


----------



## LKJ86



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## Trevor Xue

Six Y20A is about landing serbia after transit in Turkey today. According to Weibo, they are carrying air-defense missile (FK-3?).

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## ahtan_china

Trevor Xue said:


> Six Y20A is about landing serbia after transit in Turkey today. According to Weibo, they are carrying air-defense missile (FK-3?).


It looks like...........................

根据航班信息软件的数据显示，4月9日至少有6架中国空军运-20运输机抵达了塞尔维亚，期间停靠了阿塞拜疆巴库、土耳其伊斯坦布尔，最终降落在塞尔维亚的巴塔尼察空军基地。这可能是我国向塞尔维亚交付订购的FK-3防空系统，也就是红旗-22的外贸型号，这是一种全天候中远距离防空系统，可以在复杂电磁环境下作战，可以拦截各类固定翼飞机、直升机、无人机、战术弹道导弹、巡航导弹等目标。早在2020年塞尔维亚方面就透露采购了该系统，按照时间来看也应到了交付时间。当然也有可能是运输其他物资，而这也是运-20自服役以来，最大规模的海外机队行动，有自己的战略运输机用着就是方便。

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## ahtan_china

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 832182


It's special mission for Serbia.

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## Deino

With chaff & flare boxes open for the first time?!

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## hualushui

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 832182


200**，201**，what‘s different


----------



## ahtan_china

Deino said:


> With chaff & flare boxes open for the first time?!
> 
> View attachment 832347


Needless to say, this is just in case. After all, the security situation in Europe is uncertain, and now the place is indeed a little chaotic. It's always good to have multiple minds


----------



## Shotgunner51

Several Y-20A's (six were dispatched today) unloading cargo at Nikola Tesla Airport, Belgrade, Serbia. 44.8238°, 20.2884°

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## LKJ86

Via @航空物语 from Weibo

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## ahtan_china

mission for Serbia

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## LKJ86

Via @空天砺剑 from Weibo

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## Shotgunner51

Second batch of Y-20's landing at Nikola Tesla Airport just now, according to Serbian sources


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513137810018078720

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## LKJ86



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----------



## Gripen9

Any updates on Ws-20 powered Y-20?


----------



## ahtan_china

Gripen9 said:


> Any updates on Ws-20 powered Y-20?


Very soon

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----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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----------



## Ali_Baba

Interesting : 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...senger-deck-that-can-be-installed-in-its-hold


----------



## Beast

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting :
> 
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...senger-deck-that-can-be-installed-in-its-hold


If Y-20 are on mission to extract as many passengers as possible with such configuration. Upper and lower tech can easily filled with hundreds of people.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

视频去哪了呢？_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


undefined, 视频播放量 undefined、弹幕量 undefined、点赞数 undefined、投硬币枚数 undefined、收藏人数 undefined、转发人数 undefined, 视频作者 undefined, 作者简介 undefined，相关视频：




www.bilibili.com


----------



## ahtan_china

Gripen9 said:


> Any updates on Ws-20 powered Y-20?


under test

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----------



## Gripen9

ahtan_china said:


> under test
> View attachment 834142


Hopefully all goes well. And theae are inducted soon.


----------



## ahtan_china



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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-05/06/content_10152584.htm


----------



## LKJ86

Via @Oneninety from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-05/22/content_10157093.htm

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## LKJ86



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----------



## qwerrty

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529827718694510592

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----------



## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/27/content_10166143.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-06/28/content_10166973.htm

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## LKJ86

Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 857440
> View attachment 857441
> 
> Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo










Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 857457
> View attachment 857458
> 
> Via 央视军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo





LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 857571
> View attachment 857572
> View attachment 857573
> View attachment 857574
> View attachment 857575
> View attachment 857576
> View attachment 857577
> View attachment 857578
> View attachment 857579
> 
> Via @unnamed-URC from Weibo


Second Batch of China-Donated Earthquake Relief Supplies Arrives in Kabul​The second batch of earthquake relief supplies donated by the Chinese government arrived in Kabul, Afghanistan on Tuesday.


----------



## LKJ86

2nd batch of China-donated quake relief supplies arrives in Afghansitan​

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## LKJ86



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----------



## LKJ86

Y-20 transport aircraft celebrates its 6th commissioning anniversary​

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1


----------



## Han Patriot

Until a Chinese engine is used, I am not proud.


----------



## Beast

Han Patriot said:


> Until a Chinese engine is used, I am not proud.


It is using Chinese engine called WS-18. China has no import of DK30KP2 engine for long time.

As I predicted. WS-20 are never prefer by PLAAF to be used on Y-20. The reason, I have explained many times. Ease of cost, maintenance and compatibilities with H-6K. 

WS-20 offer only 15-20% increase in thrust while at expense of higher maintenance. Not worth the trouble.

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @学习军团 from Weixin

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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----------



## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553648602308030464


----------



## LKJ86

Via @Quardo30Mbps from Weibo

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1


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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5


----------



## Deino

Wow ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555581078617968642

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----------



## qwerrty



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----------



## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-08/13/content_10177966.htm

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----------



## LKJ86



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----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-08/19/content_10175217.htm

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----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/syjdt/2022-08/22/content_10179625.htm

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----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-08/22/content_10179657.htm

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @捣蛋就捣蛋 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86



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----------



## LKJ86



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----------



## LKJ86

Via @看航空 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86

运油-20A




Via @看航空 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空融媒 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86

Via 新华社

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @人民画报 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @超侧卫 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空君 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @燃烧的哈尔科夫 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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----------



## LKJ86

Via @北陆强军号 from Weixin


----------



## Ali_Baba

The Y20 is maturing quite well - looking forward to seeing an AEW&C / AWACs variant of it soon, and with more efficient engines than what it presently has. By every measure, it looks like a well built and modern transport.


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## LKJ86

Via @超级大喵酱和嘤酱 from Weibo


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Landing at Zeltweg/Austria ... but I cannot attend!  














Airpower 2022: Xian Y-20 in Zeltweg eingetroffen


Ein seltener Teilnehmer aus China ist heute auf dem Fliegerhorst Zeltweg eingetroffen.




www.austrianwings.info

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Landing at Zeltweg/Austria ... but I cannot attend!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airpower 2022: Xian Y-20 in Zeltweg eingetroffen
> 
> 
> Ein seltener Teilnehmer aus China ist heute auf dem Fliegerhorst Zeltweg eingetroffen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.austrianwings.info














Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## Beast

Y-20 in austria

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## Ali_Baba

Beast said:


> Y-20 in austria
> 
> View attachment 875811



Hopefully they will also come to an airshow in the UK some time soon aswell !!!!


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## Deino

This is a most interesting detail … the Y-20A serial number 20241 has the construction number 0051 on its tail. 

So most likely it is the 51st Y-20A built.

(Image via @lqy99021608 on Twitter)

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## Beast



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @喵喵的小汪汪呀 from Weibo

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## foxhoundbis

Deino said:


> This is a most interesting detail … the Y-20A serial number 20241 has the construction number 0051 on its tail.
> 
> So most *likely it is the 51st Y-20A built*.


@Deino
Dear @Deino I appreciate very well your work, in my view, U are among the very rare westerner besides Tom Cooper to be respected. But please don't become a new Janes, FlightGlobal, etc...Outlet. They all deserved to be despised. Please stay as U are, as U were.

Just simple questions. Do U think China will allow you to know the exact number of not only a strategic, but a vital asset such as Y-20 number so easily? Indeed, U can see *0051 but* why not *51*? Thus, why did "Globaltime "not mention this number?
My job is database designer, and it is important I think to tell you this story. At the beginning of my work, as a beginner  , I worked for a client that sold books. When I designed the database, in the primary key for the first article I set 1. I increment by 1, so that the 100° article, did have as primary key *100*. Thus my chief at that time rushed to me, and asked me, to never do that again. Because he said to me, *it was not serious*. I talked about a simple client that sold books. U can realize we are talking here about a far more serious topic, the Chinese Air Force. This number *0051* was certainly -and not only likely- caught from a database.
At this stage, U are not able to tell me the exact number of neither F-22, nor B-2. Humm....what did I say, U cannot provide me the exact number of the Typhoon belonging to the Luftwaffe. Because it is a strategic question.
None among us can know how many Y-20 were built. Even the CIA, and NSA all Western intelligence *services can not know exactly* the number of any aircraft in the Chinese air force.
A thing is absolutely sure and certain, Chinese know-how is sky-rocketing. The stupid, and imbecile western behavior against Russia since 2010, has been pushing Russian leaders into Chinese arms. Thus huge, nevertheless very secret technologies transfers between Moscow and Beijing happened. The real number of Y-20 built is certainly far above 100, if not hundreds.

For those who are interested by database here are some useful links :








Auto-increment primary key in SQL tables


Using Sql Express Management Studio 2008 GUI (not with coding), how can I make a primary key auto-incremented? Let me explain: there is a table which has a column named "id" and the items of this ...




stackoverflow.com












How to Define an Auto Increment Primary Key in Oracle


Learn how to define an auto increment primary key in Oracle. Prior to Oracle’s version 12c, there was no way to generate auto incrementing columns within a t…




chartio.com






Jan's Access Basics: Primary Key Button

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## johncliu88

The one with big barrels is online.

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## Deino

johncliu88 said:


> The one with big barrels is online.
> View attachment 879349
> 
> 
> View attachment 879350




But it is a GC (via @Quardo30Mbps from Weibo) only


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## LKJ86

A Y-20 transportation aircraft took off from China on Sept 14 to repatriate the ninth batch of the remains of Chinese People's Volunteers' (CPV) Army martyrs and their belongings in South Korea.​


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## nang2

Deino said:


> But it is a GC (via @Quardo30Mbps from Weibo) only


You mean it was a photoshop-ed picture?


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## Deino

nang2 said:


> You mean it was a photoshop-ed picture?




No, a computer-generated graphic!

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## nahtanbob

How many Y-20s are in service ? I see the thread started in 2013


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## lcloo

nahtanbob said:


> How many Y-20s are in service ? I see the thread started in 2013


At least 51 by photograph evidence. Real number (as at September 2022) could be higher, may be around 55 to 60 aircraft.

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## johncliu88

Deino said:


> No, a computer-generated graphic!


Sorry, just found out. Just take it as an illustration then.

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## LKJ86

Via https://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Air-Force/Xian-Y-20/6878627/L

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

*A Y-20 strategic transport plane of the People's Liberation Army Air Force carried back the remains of 88 Chinese soldiers who died during the War to Resist US Aggression and Aid Korea (1950-53) on Friday.*

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## johncliu88

Salute to the Chinese soldiers who contributed their young lives many years ago in Korea.

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## LKJ86

Via @人民画报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @Yip-HuiWing from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 883361
> View attachment 883362
> View attachment 883363
> View attachment 883364
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @DS木淫系宜腹 from Weibo

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## casual

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 883630
> 
> Via @DS木淫系宜腹 from Weibo


finally


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## Deino

casual said:


> finally




Why finally ? We know the Y-20B since some time.


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## casual

Deino said:


> Why finally ? We know the Y-20B since some time.


We never had a clear video of it flying before


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## Deino

casual said:


> We never had a clear video of it flying before



Well … we had!


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## casual

Deino said:


> Well … we had!


When was that?


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-10/03/content_10188054.htm

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Why finally ? We know the Y-20B since some time.


Some claim Y-20B is an enlong Y-20A which is why a bigger and more powerful turbofan needed.


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## LKJ86

Via @那一朵云哟 from Weibo

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## lcloo

Y-20U central refueling point.

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## LKJ86

Via @那一朵云哟 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @扑克脸49329 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @太湖啥个 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空知识杂志王亚男 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-11/01/content_10196309.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @海南省航空摄影协会 from Weibo












Via @瘦驼 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @FATIII from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空知识 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

YY-20







Via CCTV 1 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @FATIII from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via https://www.cannews.com.cn/2022/1105/352626.shtml

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## LKJ86

Via @疯子白杨 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @Oneninety from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @捣蛋就捣蛋 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 906853
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin




EW/AEW???


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1605123468550455296

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## S10

I want to see a variant that can deploy a massive number of kamikaze drones from the air. It will significantly increase range and payload compared to ground launched ones (Shahed-136).

Release them 600km away from targets, which will make you untouchable from enemy air defenses or interception. These cheap drones will then fly towards the target guided by Beidou navigation, or source of radiation to take out radars.

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## IblinI

Deino said:


> EW/AEW???


or something similar to E8 JSTARS?

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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 906853
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin



Interesting!!! They already have enough manufactured for their transport needs that they can think of special mission variants. Wonder when we can see AEW&C variants on this platform.


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## GiantPanda

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting!!! They already have enough manufactured for their transport needs that they can think of special mission variants. Wonder when we can see AEW&C variants on this platform.



The overall need for the regular transport variant is in the hundreds so they are not even close to satisfying demand with 60 or so they currently have. But demand for special missions is huge too so R&D and production have to continue in parallel. We have already seen the tanker YY-20, the AEW variant is assured and there will probably be others like EW.

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## Deino

Maybe something like this?

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## GiantPanda

Deino said:


> Maybe something like this?
> 
> View attachment 906904



That is the RC-2 ELINT. The Y-20 in question really does look like it has similar fairings.

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## Horse_Rider

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 893298
> 
> Via @FATIII from Weibo



Is this version dedicated for Tanker only or multirole? Are the latest images in Yellow primer for JSTARS / EW variant?



S10 said:


> I want to see a variant that can deploy a massive number of kamikaze drones from the air. It will significantly increase range and payload compared to ground launched ones (Shahed-136).
> 
> Release them 600km away from targets, which will make you untouchable from enemy air defenses or interception. These cheap drones will then fly towards the target guided by Beidou navigation, or source of radiation to take out radars.



What if Beidou is jammed or spoofed? And majority of the radars are mobile as in SCS, majority of the offensive force would be naval from US / NATO / India?


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## S10

Horse_Rider said:


> What if Beidou is jammed or spoofed? And majority of the radars are mobile as in SCS, majority of the offensive force would be naval from US / NATO / India?


A small seeker could be installed for the regular variants for real time target acquisition. A receiver for GLONASS/GPS could also be made as a backup. The anti-radiation variant will track itself to radar sources no matter what.


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## Corax

Why didn't they pick the PS-90 engine?


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## Deino

Corax said:


> Why didn't they pick the PS-90 engine?


Since the indigenous WS-20 is already close to service entry

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2023-01/04/content_10209728.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## FuturePAF

GiantPanda said:


> The overall need for the regular transport variant is in the hundreds so they are not even close to satisfying demand with 60 or so they currently have. But demand for special missions is huge too so R&D and production have to continue in parallel. We have already seen the tanker YY-20, the AEW variant is assured and there will probably be others like EW.


If the demand is high and the funding is there, it won’t be long before the Y-20 fills the skies like the C-17 does in these massive operations. Hundreds of Y-20 could be the best way to provide humanitarian relief in UN operations, resupply PLA or allied bases during hostiles or drop paratroopers on Taiwan in an operation. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611756466213462016


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