# AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.



## Salahadin

By
DOUG CAMERON
April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET







The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.

U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.

The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.

Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.

Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com

State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ

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## Mrc

1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment

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## shaheenmissile

Damn it.
Have we not wisened up? Again falling in the same American honey trap?
One billion USD for just 15 helis? Thats a joke.



Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment


What can i say. Our rulers are on their payrolls.

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## Víðarr

shaheenmissile said:


> One billion USD for just 15 helis? Thats a joke.



Not just 15 helos!

*15 AH-1Z Viper* helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as *1,000 Hellfire* missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of *other communications and training equipment* with a total value of $952 million

That's a lot of firepower! Don't be sour; rejoice! Money well spent and put those new birds to use please.

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## Viper0011.

shaheenmissile said:


> Damn it. Have we not wisened up? Again falling in the same American honey trap? One billion USD for just 15 helis? Thats a joke.
> *
> What can i say. Our rulers are on their payrolls*.



Not your rulers.....your generals to be precise!!! Quit blaming every fukup of everyone on to the rulers. Civilians don't give out a list of weapons to buy, the military does. The least you can do when you write, is to keep some honesty in your posts!! You are obviously one of IK's propagandist, like him, you all lie shamelessly and for no reason!

And by the way, its actually a good deal if you read into all details. A Viper-Z, is hell of an advanced combat helicopter. A close match to the Apaches.

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## C130

Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment



it includes all the bells and whistles to go with them.

if Pakistan wants to buy Chinese it would buy Chinese  even the Chinese are desperate since they sent three Z 10s as gifts

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## Sine Nomine

May be trap,if PA goes to get Ah-1z dumping *AH-10 Yaldrum* aside then surely it's case of kickbacks because, AH-10 until know as performed well it's sensor package and targeting system is outstanding even latest Ah-64 is unable to match it in range and agility.If not true then US is luring us into buying this to facilitate India.



C130 said:


> it includes all the bells and whistles to go with them.
> 
> if Pakistan wants to buy Chinese it would buy Chinese  even the Chinese are desperate since they sent *three Z 10s as gifts*


This is not gift it is for Testing and Evaluation,in past even J-10 was there for same purpose.

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## Imran Khan

helicopter helicopters everywhere 






love to see hellfire missiles in pakistani hands

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## root

Good addition.


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## WaLeEdK2

I'm getting real tired of this helicopter issue. With 1bn dollars we could have gotten more z-10s.


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## Imran Khan

C130 said:


> it includes all the bells and whistles to go with them.
> 
> if Pakistan wants to buy Chinese it would buy Chinese  even the Chinese are desperate since they sent three Z 10s as gifts


pakistan will buy three types

MI-35 deal sign
cobra approved 
z-10 under trail we will decide


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## WaLeEdK2

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan will buy three types
> 
> MI-35 deal sign
> cobra approved
> z-10 under trail we will decide


You have any idea how many mi-35s we're planning to get?


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## shaheenmissile

Imran Khan said:


> helicopter helicopters everywhere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> love to see hellfire missiles in pakistani hands


And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.

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## C130

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan will buy three types
> 
> MI-35 deal sign
> cobra approved
> z-10 under trail we will decide




Z-10 is underpowered . It's like the Tigre but less sophisticated.

I would remove Z-10 and go for a light scout helicopter like the MD-530G or AH-6I

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## Khan Sahab

I don't know but it seems a bit fishy now that Pakistan is evaluating Z-10. China wants Pakistan to be its first customer and now Americans would try to pull us out of it. AH-1 Zulu is definitely better but working with Chinese on Z-10 would be more beneficial eventually.

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## Imran Khan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> You have any idea how many mi-35s we're planning to get?


20 as i know sir



shaheenmissile said:


> And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
> Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
> We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.


and sir you might be aware that same tali-dog can blast a 5 star hotel and kill dozens in minutes .

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## Pulsar

> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment *aimed* *at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions*.


As well as to be used against India in war. Thank you America! You guys are such great friends!


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## Imran Khan

C130 said:


> Z-10 is underpowered . It's like the Tigre but less sophisticated.
> 
> I would remove Z-10 and go for a light scout helicopter like the MD-530F or AH-6I


our request for cobras was very old so i am smelling here two type of helis same like we using f-16 jf-17 its not bad two commands have different equipment .remember not to keep all eggs in one basket be it Chinese or US basket

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## C130

Imran Khan said:


> our request for cobras was very old so i am smelling here two type of helis same like we using f-16 jf-17 its not bad two commands have different equipment .remember not to keep all eggs in one basket be it Chinese or US basket








could get a lot of bang out of buck with a scout heli.

Mi-35 is the big work horse
AH-1Z or Z-10 is your dedicated attackheli
MD-540A or AH-6I is like the Mi-35 but smaller but still just as deadly.

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## Imran Khan

C130 said:


> could get a lot of bang out of buck with a scout heli.
> 
> Mi-35 is the big work horse
> AH-1Z or Z-10 is your dedicated attackheli
> MD-540A or AH-6I is like the Mi-35 but smaller but still just as deadly.


for light role we have got already AS-550 sir

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## Sine Nomine

C130 said:


> MD-540A or AH-6I is like the Mi-35 but smaller but still just as deadly.


Ah-6 is no way comparative to Mi-35 it's Armour,it's massive firepower and above all it's 1600kw engines,it is in category of MH-60 even better then that.

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## C130

قناص said:


> Ah-6 is no way comparative to Mi-35 it's Armour,it's massive firepower and above all it's 1600kw engines,it is in category of MH-60 even better then that.




I didn't mean that literally. poor choice analogy I guess, haha.

it's pretty much the opposite of the Hind. just meant it would be a little workhorse and more specialized than a dedicated helicopter


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## Sine Nomine

C130 said:


> I didn't mean that literally. poor choice analogy I guess, haha.
> 
> it's pretty much the opposite of the Hind. just meant it would be a little workhorse and more specialized than a dedicated helicopter


They are no doubt very good machines,Ah-6,Mh-60 and Mi 24 are best for special ops.


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## tarrar

MI35, MI28, WZ10 & now AH-1Z Viper, I will not believe any thing unless I see them in Pakistan. Well 3 WZ10 are already in Pakistan for battle test. Hellfire missile? I don't believe in this news. Lets wait for official confirmation.


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## Max Pain

Wow great timing, when we desperately asked for those zulus since the start of War on Terror and it never got approved and now out of nowhere this just got approved when we are i. The process of buying mi 35 and z10 and evaluating ATAK.
I think even Chinese would say "getting real tired of your bullshit Pakistan"
Whats the guarantee that when we go looking for spares after some years, there wont be any strings attached?

Please go for z10,
We are in a process of diversifying our military equipment and the yanks just threw a bone again.

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## Imran Khan

tarrar said:


> MI35, MI28, WZ10 & now AH-1Z Viper, I will not believe any thing unless I see them in Pakistan. Well 3 WZ10 are already in Pakistan for battle test. Hellfire missile? I don't believe in this news. Lets wait for official confirmation.






*Defense Security Cooperation Agency *







ASHINGTON, Apr 6, 2015 – The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of *15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. *Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $952 million.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia.

This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia.

This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, Texas; General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts; The Boeing Company in Huntsville, Alabama; and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland. There are no known offset agreements proposed in conjunction with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.

-30-


its great official sir jee
Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency



here is PDF file
http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/pakistan_15-05.pdf

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## Zarvan

Salahadin said:


> By
> DOUG CAMERON
> April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET
> 
> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.
> 
> U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.
> 
> Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.
> 
> Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com
> 
> State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ


Well that is good news but How on earth US approved it ????


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> Well that is good news but How on earth US approved it ????


why should not sir its simple deal of choppers missiles and equipment we need and we are ready to pay it

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## tarrar

@Imran Khan Good, but we both know 15 attack helicopters is not enough.


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## Imran Khan

tarrar said:


> @Imran Khan Good, but we both know 15 attack helicopters is not enough.


did we buy all F-16 together boss? or lets say all bells or as series ? its just open the gate we can order more once we adopt tech . i think they will order more letter on . after we got sanctions on f-16 we should use brain and not to pay massive amount like before sir.


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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> why should not sir its simple deal of choppers missiles and equipment we need and we are ready to pay it


Pakistan going for WZ-10 as well as Cobras and MI-35 and may be MI-28 not to mention there are still rumours of T-129


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## tarrar

Imran Khan said:


> did we buy all F-16 together boss? or lets say all bells or as series ? its just open the gate we can order more once we adopt tech . i think they will order more letter on . after we got sanctions on f-16 we should use brain and not to pay massive amount like before sir.



Lets hope for the best, boss.

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## Sine Nomine

Imran Khan said:


> This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military* capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations* in South Asia.


Yes only when 90% of terrorists are gone and we are going to buy AH-10,we should but but not at cost of Ah-10(z-10).


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan going for WZ-10 as well as Cobras and MI-35 and may be MI-28 not to mention there are still rumours of T-129


now after this dev i can say pakistan army aviation will have AH-1Zs and anti narcotics force will have mi-35s and z-10 is under trail wait for it . no more helis


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan going for WZ-10 as well as Cobras and MI-35 and may be MI-28 not to mention there are still rumours of T-129


They are not found in Fish Market man,Ah-10 Yaldrum(z-10) will be purchases but they may go for Ah-1z because we already have huge maintenance facility for Ah-1 and trained personal.


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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> now after this dev i can say pakistan army aviation will have AH-1Zs and anti narcotics force will have mi-35s and z-10 is under trail wait for it . no more helis


MI-35 will go to SSG not Anti Narcotics


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> MI-35 will go to SSG not Anti Narcotics


They again and again mention ANF sir 

The Moscow Times - Breaking News, Business, Culture & Multimedia from Russia
*Russia plans to supply Pakistan with Mi-35 combat helicopters to fight drug trafficking, head of the Russian delegation at the international defense and security exhibition Eurosatory 2014 Igor Sevastyanov said Wednesday.*

Read more: Pakistan to Use Russian Mi-35 Helicopters to Fight Drug Trafficking / Sputnik International
We are talking about _Mi_-_35_ helicopters, we plan to supply them at the request of the _Pakistani anti_-_drug_ trafficking agency,” Sevastyanov said

Pakistan to Use Russian Mi-35 Helicopters to Fight Drug Trafficking / Sputnik International

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## kaonalpha

Yaar everyone chill be happy we have received Z10. MORE are on the way. We will receive Mi-35 by the end of this year. Now we can also give a go at the t129 attak as a LCH .And tgose guy's who are banging their heads upon hearing the 1billion$ price tag relax . This is good let the ah1z come give obe to Chinese for analysis and you'll get a much better Z10 variant or annah1z copy China zindabad. PAKISTAN paindabad.


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## Thorough Pro

Its a rickshaw compared to AH1Z



C130 said:


> could get a lot of bang out of buck with a scout heli.
> 
> Mi-35 is the big work horse
> AH-1Z or Z-10 is your dedicated attackheli
> MD-540A or AH-6I is like the Mi-35 but smaller but still just as deadly.


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## shaheenmissile

Thats 63 million Dollar a piece for 15 Choppers. WOW

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## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan will buy three types
> 
> MI-35 deal sign
> cobra approved
> z-10 under trail we will decide


 and that will be quite a stupid move. Operating three kinds of helos, 15-18 each. Not only different kinds but coming from different sources with a totally different armament. Doesn't makes much sense. 

What would be IDEAL will be to go for about 36 Mi-35 and then add 36 Z-10 with further induction of 36 more if budget allows. That will be more then enough and will address the army aviation attack needs for quote some time to come.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Very interesting!!! 

Next could be UH-1Y

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## kaonalpha

Make a demon chiod between all the helicopter being received mi35 z10 and ah1z. The badass result an Ahmiz 1135


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## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> They again and again mention ANF sir
> 
> The Moscow Times - Breaking News, Business, Culture & Multimedia from Russia
> *Russia plans to supply Pakistan with Mi-35 combat helicopters to fight drug trafficking, head of the Russian delegation at the international defense and security exhibition Eurosatory 2014 Igor Sevastyanov said Wednesday.*
> 
> Read more: Pakistan to Use Russian Mi-35 Helicopters to Fight Drug Trafficking / Sputnik International
> We are talking about _Mi_-_35_ helicopters, we plan to supply them at the request of the _Pakistani anti_-_drug_ trafficking agency,” Sevastyanov said
> 
> Pakistan to Use Russian Mi-35 Helicopters to Fight Drug Trafficking / Sputnik International




This may well be to keep the Indians happy (no offense towards Indians).
otherwise i really suspect ANF will require and will have the resources to operate 20 odd mi-35. These will more probably be used by army Aviation for SGS on the western front. While there then can always keep an eye on drug trafficking as well as that is the side notorious for this business. However dedicated ANF helos and being operated solely for this purpose, i dont think so...


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## Kompromat

Repeating the lesson again


Mi-35s are NOT for the Army, they most likely will be used by Special Forces as Airborne assault element. 

Z-10 is under evaluation, 3 of them are already in Pakistan and if their trials are successful they'll replace our old Cobras
15 AH-1Z Vipers deal is 'done' by the looks of it & it will be provide the high tech element in our attack heli line up.
However, i must say that i am VERY surprised at this deal, i must admit that i didn't see this one coming.

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## Darth Vader

Horus said:


> Repeating the lesson again
> 
> 
> Mi-35s are NOT for the Army, they most likely will be used by Special Forces as Airborne assault element.
> 
> Z-10 is under evaluation, 3 of them are already in Pakistan and if their trials are successful they'll replace our old Cobras
> 15 AH-1Z Vipers deal is 'done' by the looks of it & it will be provide the high tech element in our attack heli line up.
> However, i must say that i am VERY surprised at this deal, i must admit that i didn't see this one coming.


2015 is of full of Surprises for Pakistan Armed Forces , Jet Deal , Thn Sub Deal , thn helis


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## Kompromat

Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment



I don't think we are paying for it and i don't think it will have any impact on Z-10s.

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## Beast

US only sold pakistan the gunship becos China can provide WZ-10 gunship. If China never sell WZ-10 to PA. US will continue sanction PA equipment. I hope Pakistan can see the true color of US.

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## Stealth



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## Sulman Badshah

Stealth said:


> View attachment 212611


AH1Z is viper not super cobra ...super cobra was older version of viper


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## VelocuR

Not necessary small numbers of AH 1Z Viper craps, we would like to see if US should offer great discount for 200+ *AH-64 Apaches Longbow III to Pakistan.*

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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> View attachment 212611



Bro its not Super Cobra, its AH-1Zulu the latest kin to AH-64E Apache Guardian.



VelocuR said:


> Not necessary small numbers of AH 1Z Viper craps, we would like to see if US should offer great discount for 200+ *AH-64 Apaches Longbow III to Pakistan.*



Go to sleep.

Z-10s will be the cavalry the Zulu will be the highest end copter. A 2 tier attack element followed by Mi-35s for SSG.

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## Mrc

But than 15 seems to be a low number ... any plans to upgrade current cobras to zulu standard??


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## HttpError

Beast said:


> US only sold pakistan the gunship becos China can provide WZ-10 gunship. If China never sell WZ-10 to PA. US will continue sanction PA equipment. I hope Pakistan can see the true color of US.



This is what I was thinking, US does not want to let go Pakistan from it's clutch they want us to be dependent on them, they also completely don't want to isolate us because then we will form alliance with China. I think We should develop Z-10 or Z-20.

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## Stealth

Horus said:


> Bro its not Super Cobra, its AH-1Zulu the latest kin to AH-64E Apache Guardian.
> 
> 
> 
> Go to sleep.
> 
> Z-10s will be the cavalry the Zulu will be the highest end copter. A 2 tier attack element followed by Mi-35s for SSG.

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## Akasa

The issue with Z-10 is that it is underpowered, which tags along plenty of other limitations including a low weapons load, lack of a MMW radar, thin armor, and less sensors.

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## VelocuR

Horus said:


> Bro its not Super Cobra, its AH-1Zulu the latest kin to AH-64E Apache Guardian.
> 
> 
> 
> Go to sleep.
> 
> Z-10s will be the cavalry the Zulu will be the highest end copter. A 2 tier attack element followed by Mi-35s for SSG.



US should offer better helicopter like AH-64 Apaches instead few Vipers, why they changed mind after many years ignoring Pakistan's requests? Is it because China provided Z-10 or Turkey/Russia offered similarly in global markets pressure? 

Hope Pakistan stick with their original plans.


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## Kompromat

SinoSoldier said:


> The issue with Z-10 is that it is underpowered, which tags along plenty of other limitations including a low weapons load, lack of a MMW radar, thin armor, and less sensors.



I will repeat again Pakistan needs to replace over 50 units of Cobras, which helicopter will replace them?
Z-10 will be tested rigorously and in my opinion will lead to an upgraded model based on combat applications by Pakistan Army. The Z-10 most likely will replace our Cobras, the Viper however will be our high end machine.

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## Zarvan

Arsalan said:


> and that will be quite a stupid move. Operating three kinds of helos, 15-18 each. Not only different kinds but coming from different sources with a totally different armament. Doesn't makes much sense.
> 
> What would be IDEAL will be to go for about 36 Mi-35 and then add 36 Z-10 with further induction of 36 more if budget allows. That will be more then enough and will address the army aviation attack needs for quote some time to come.


Sir not mention there are rumors of MI-28 as well as T-129



Horus said:


> I will repeat again Pakistan needs to replace over 50 units of Cobras, which helicopter will replace them?
> Z-10 will be tested rigorously and in my opinion will lead to an upgraded model based on combat applications by Pakistan Army. The Z-10 most likely will replace our Cobras, the Viper however will be our high end machine.


So can we say we have completely dropped the idea of T-129 ?


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## VelocuR

*Spend budget wisely for our needs*

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## Akasa

Horus said:


> I will repeat again Pakistan needs to replace over 50 units of Cobras, which helicopter will replace them?
> Z-10 will be tested rigorously and in my opinion will lead to an upgraded model based on combat applications by Pakistan Army. The Z-10 most likely will replace our Cobras, the Viper however will be our high end machine.



The comment was in response to questions regarding why Pakistan chose AH-1Z instead of more Z-10. The respective capabilities, at this moment, of the two platforms should suffice more than enough for an answer.

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## Stealth

Pakistan is the only country in entire Asia, using 5 multiple attack and other utility helicopter platforms at a time .

AH1Z Viper - Attack (U.S.A)
AH1F/S - Attack (U.S.A)
Mi 35 - Attack + Troops (Russian) - Deal Finalized
Z-10 Fierce Thunderbolt - Attack (China)
Eurocopter Fennec - Attack (France)
Bell 206 Jet Ranger - Utility (U.S.A)
Bell 412 - Gunship + Utility (U.S.A)
Bell UH-1 Huey - Gunship + Utility (U.S.A)
Mil Mi-17 - Utility (Russia)
IAR 330 PUMA - Utility (Romanian)
Eurocopter AS350 - Utility (France)
Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma - Utility (France)
Mil Mi-8 - Utility (Russia)
Aérospatiale Alouette III - Utility (France)

In future chances of Z20 (Similar to Black Hawk) China Version.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Bro its not Super Cobra, its AH-1Zulu the latest kin to AH-64E Apache Guardian.
> 
> 
> 
> Go to sleep.
> 
> Z-10s will be the cavalry the Zulu will be the highest end copter. A 2 tier attack element followed by Mi-35s for SSG.


Some reports are suggesting we are getting 48 helicopters from Russia which also include some MI-28



Stealth said:


> Pakistan is the only country in entire Asia, using 5 multiple attack and other utility helicopter platforms at a time .
> 
> AH1Z Viper - Attack (U.S.A)
> AH1F/S - Attack (U.S.A)
> Mi 35 - Attack + Troops (Russian) - Deal Finalized
> Z-10 Fierce Thunderbolt - Attack (China)
> Eurocopter Fennec - Attack (France)
> Bell 206 Jet Ranger - Utility (U.S.A)
> Bell 412 - Gunship + Utility (U.S.A)
> Bell UH-1 Huey - Gunship + Utility (U.S.A)
> Mil Mi-17 - Utility (Russia)
> IAR 330 PUMA - Utility (Romanian)
> Eurocopter AS350 - Utility (France)
> Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma - Utility (France)
> Mil Mi-8 - Utility (Russia)
> Aérospatiale Alouette III - Utility (France)
> 
> In future chances of Z20 (Similar to Black Hawk) China Version.


We should get Z-10 with wz 16 engine and other recent up gradations done in latest squadron of WZ-10 which Chinese Army got and produce WZ-10 and Z-20 in Pakistan


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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> Pakistan is the only country in entire Asia, using 5 multiple attack and other utility helicopter platforms at a time .
> 
> AH1Z Viper - Attack (U.S.A)
> AH1F/S - Attack (U.S.A)
> Mi 35 - Attack + Troops (Russian) - Deal Finalized
> Z-10 Fierce Thunderbolt - Attack (China)
> Eurocopter Fennec - Attack (France)
> Bell 206 Jet Ranger - Utility (U.S.A)
> Bell 412 - Gunship + Utility (U.S.A)
> Bell UH-1 Huey - Gunship + Utility (U.S.A)
> Mil Mi-17 - Utility (Russia)
> IAR 330 PUMA - Utility (Romanian)
> Eurocopter AS350 - Utility (France)
> Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma - Utility (France)
> Mil Mi-8 - Utility (Russia)
> Aérospatiale Alouette III - Utility (France)
> 
> In future chances of Z20 (Similar to Black Hawk) China Version.



I think we will have HI-LO mix for attack element. 

AH-1Z Viper to be the spearhead
Z-10 Thunderbolt to replace Cobras
Mi-35s to fulfill the flying IFV role for Spec Ops. 
Some AH-1S will be upgraded and made to soldier on further.

All in all we will have one heck of an air borne assault element in our Army Aviation for both CT and Conventional roles.

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## SecularNationalist

1 billion dollar for these few piece of craps?
We should rather use our funds efficiently and buy advanced high tech Russian helicopters like KA-50 etc .Each cost $16 million.In that much money we would have bought many of them and hence more fire power.


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## Stealth

Horus said:


> I think we will have HI-LO mix for attack element.
> 
> AH-1Z Viper to be the spearhead
> Z-10 Thunderbolt to replace Cobras
> Mi-35s to fulfill the flying IFV role for Spec Ops.
> Some AH-1S will be upgraded and made to soldier on further.
> 
> All in all we will have one heck of an air borne assault element in our Army Aviation for both CT and Conventional roles.



Lets make a poster with use info (like you did nice speculation regarding use off)

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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> US only sold pakistan the gunship becos China can provide WZ-10 gunship. If China never sell WZ-10 to PA. US will continue sanction PA equipment. I hope Pakistan can see the true color of US.



True that...


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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> Lets make a poster with use info (like you did nice speculation regarding use off)



Yes it will be a brilliant idea to explain why we are seeking so many helicopters, kids are confused.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Although Pakistan had already enough on PAK-US arms deals and even today the PA aviation is dying to get handful of spares for its aging AH-1F fleet but US let us down, like ever and only the brotherly countries came up to help us.

But never mind we are a tough nation and we are always ready to be screwed by US.

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## Stealth

SecularNationalist said:


> 1 billion dollar for these few piece of craps?
> We should rather use our funds efficiently and buy advanced high tech Russian helicopters like KA-50 etc .Each cost $16 million.In that much money we would have bought many of them and hence more fire power.



Trust me these are not CRAPS lol... man deadly as hell! ruk tu ja Pakistan is playing similar blackmailing game that US playing with Pakistan since long time... Pakistan nay jhadi dekhaye hey Mi35 aur Z10 ke.. saath he Amreekans ke phat gaye hey kay if Pakistan will get non-sanction US hardware.. tu Pakistan tu finger dekhayega abhe thora sa counter terror pe haath sakht kya hey tu hamain aankhain dekha rahay Pakistan lol... fully nikal gaya tu WAR GAYE AMREEKAN lol



Horus said:


> I think we will have HI-LO mix for attack element.
> 
> AH-1Z Viper to be the spearhead
> Z-10 Thunderbolt to replace Cobras
> Mi-35s to fulfill the flying IFV role for Spec Ops.
> Some AH-1S will be upgraded and made to soldier on further.
> 
> All in all we will have one heck of an air borne assault element in our Army Aviation for both CT and Conventional roles.


Pakistan just only need one heavy lifter like Chinook or some other ... seriously DEADLY Army Aviation in the region.. we don't need Apache ... 50 + zulus are enugh to kick ***!


Most powerful Army Aviation in the region from Middle east to Asia Pacific will use 5 attack helis and all for different purposes. U.S. and Russia are the only countries who are using 5X Gunship platforms rest of all are 3X like France and Britian... In our region Pakistan will become 1st .... hellya!

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## Kompromat

SecularNationalist said:


> 1 billion dollar for these few piece of craps?
> We should rather use our funds efficiently and buy advanced high tech Russian helicopters like KA-50 etc .Each cost $16 million.In that much money we would have bought many of them and hence more fire power.



Here we go


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## DANGER-ZONE

We have been requesting US Govt. for Zulu sales for at least last 5 years but always rejected and now when China and Russia competing closely to supply us the attack hello and we are about to start new era of good military relationship with Russia, suddenly out of nowhere US hops in.

WTF .... Pakistanis have u guys gone nuts. Use the top most part of your body before finalising the deal.

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## VelocuR

12 years of humiliated, bullied, and punished by US, we have been suffering alot. 

Obviously short memories we are. 

War on terrorism are just over and already eliminated many terrorists in northern areas.

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> Yes it will be a brilliant idea to explain why we are seeking so many helicopters, kids are confused.


Sir these are on Cards US seems to be trying to stop Z-10, look we needed them in start of OPS Zarb e Azab not after we are about to finish and Z-10 is matchless platform today it's radar and sound signature is lowest in it's kind.Mi 35 is meant for SOF.Ah-10 Yaldrum is going to form core of our fleet.PRC has asked if you place huge order then it's likely that we may have a production facility for Z-10.....My humble suggestion that we should avoid PRC nomenclature, for weapons instead we should name Z-10 Thunderbolt(AH-10 Yaldrum).

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## sameer hussain

i would perfer to work with chinese with the Z-10 for the time being at least getting into helicopter maker and tranfer for technology and would enhance Pakistan capability.getting any coper is important as Pakistan is going self reliance which will help it grow its defence industry.


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## Sine Nomine

Stealth said:


> Pakistan just only need one heavy lifter like Chinook or some other


Ch-47 and Mi 26 both have been evaluated and offered to PAA but there sortie cost is very high.


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## Kompromat

DANGER-ZONE said:


> We have been requesting US Govt. for Zulu sales for at least last 5 years but always rejected and now when China and Russia competing closely to supply us the attack hello and we are about to start new era of good military relationship with Russia, suddenly out of nowhere US hops in.
> 
> WTF .... Pakistanis have u guys gone nuts. Use the top most part of your body before finalising the deal.



Calm down dude. The US Marines didn't get their delivery until this year which was a priority.

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## SecularNationalist

Stealth said:


> Trust me these are not CRAPS lol... man deadly as hell! ruk tu ja Pakistan is playing similar blackmailing game that US playing with Pakistan since long time... Pakistan nay jhadi dekhaye hey Mi35 aur Z10 ke.. saath he Amreekans ke phat gaye hey kay if Pakistan will get non-sanction US hardware.. tu Pakistan tu finger dekhayega abhe thora sa counter terror pe haath sakht kya hey tu hamain aankhain dekha rahay Pakistan lol... fully nikal gaya tu WAR GAYE AMREEKAN lol
> 
> 
> Pakistan just only need one heavy lifter like Chinook or some other ... seriously DEADLY Army Aviation in the region.. we don't need Apache ... 50 + zulus are enugh to kick ***!


I highly doubt we are buying these toys brand new and even if we would have bought them new the maximum cost should be $465 million ($31 million each new multiply 15) the used cost $27 million each. So why we are paying $1 billion ? We are getting these toys but paying a way more price.But the interesting thing about these helicopters is that first they got launched in 2010 which shows they are the latest tech and secondly currently unites states marine corps is the only operator of these machines.So yes they are deadly and high tech compared to other in the market.

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## Farah Sohail

Horus said:


> Yes it will be a brilliant idea to explain why we are seeking so many helicopters, kids are confused.



What abt t-129 deal with turkey? Have we droppped tht idea completely? Would hve been a good idea to increase our defence cooperation with turkey....


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## Stealth

قناص said:


> Sir these are on Cards US seems to be trying to stop Z-10, look we needed them in start of OPS Zarb e Azab not after we are about to finish and Z-10 is matchless platform today it's radar and sound signature is lowest in it's kind.Mi 35 is meant for SOF.Ah-10 Yaldrum is going to form core of our fleet.PRC has asked if you place huge order then it's likely that we may have a production facility for Z-10.....My humble suggestion that we should avoid PRC nomenclature, for weapons instead we should name Z-10 Thunderbolt(AH-10 Yaldrum).





SecularNationalist said:


> I highly doubt we are buying these toys brand new and even if we would have bought them new the maximum cost should be $465 million ($31 million each new multiply 15) the used cost $27 million each. So why we are paying $1 billion ? We are getting these toys but paying a way more price.But the interesting thing about these helicopters is that first they got launched in 2010 which shows they are the latest tech and secondly currently unites states marine corps is the only operator of these machines.So yes they are deadly and high tech compared to other in the market.




Inshort Amreekan baray Harami hain....

Pakistan request for zulu 5 years ago (15X initial) rejected by US. All of the sudden approved 15X sales becuz of fear of "Pakistan haath say nikal na jaye". I bet Pakistan even don't know that State. Dept will approve this request especially in current situation. Pakistan don't have 1 Billion separately for this... even U.S. will agree to sell these 15 even Pakistan show "No further interest in Zulu" the reason is pretty clear. Pakistan don't need 15X Helis... as far as my info, Pakistan need 30 + Attack helis to ensure security on both borders. This Mi 35 + 1 more attack heli is basically for balance of power on both borders. Now achanak 15X zulu, You will see soon Pakistan request for 15 + more after 15 approved ones arrive...

Remember one thing. Pakistan is the only country whom request of any army sales directly from Pentagon not with the government. Pakistan military has very strong relations with the U.S. Military.

Pakistan always request U.S. military about their needs. U.S. military establishment make a strong case and put in front of Government. If Pakistan will directly ask state department, they will never ever approve because our dynamics with U.S. are very different from other countries.

For Example, Indian government directly request for Apaches bt US/India Government to Government dialogue. Indian military never discuss such request first the the Pentagon.

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## Kompromat

قناص said:


> Sir these are on Cards US seems to be trying to stop Z-10, look we needed them in start of OPS Zarb e Azab not after we are about to finish and Z-10 is matchless platform today it's radar and sound signature is lowest in it's kind.Mi 35 is meant for SOF.Ah-10 Yaldrum is going to form core of our fleet.PRC has asked if you place huge order then it's likely that we may have a production facility for Z-10.....My humble suggestion that we should avoid PRC nomenclature, for weapons instead we should name Z-10 Thunderbolt(AH-10 Yaldrum).



I have heard some talk about Z-10 order ranging between 50-70 units in the long term with local production, provided trials are successful.



Farah Sohail said:


> What abt t-129 deal with turkey? Have we droppped tht idea completely? Would hve been a good idea to increase our defence cooperation with turkey....



If US is selling its Vipers then it means they refused to clear engines for T-129.

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> Calm down dude. The US Marines didn't get their delivery until this year which was a priority.


But sir US marines were not in any war as we were and also this seems lame excuse because when US desired it was able to produce 1 viper a day at Fort Worth, Texas Plant.


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## subanday

Having plethora of helicopter types is a headache for a country like us, just like israel is only using AH-64 now with cobras as secondary until they r decommissioned. WZ10, AH1z, MI35, ATAK129 .... matlab ye ho kya raha hay???


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## Kompromat

SecularNationalist said:


> I highly doubt we are buying these toys brand new and even if we would have bought them new the maximum cost should be $465 million ($31 million each new multiply 15) the used cost $27 million each. So why we are paying $1 billion ? We are getting these toys but paying a way more price.But the interesting thing about these helicopters is that first they got launched in 2010 which shows they are the latest tech and secondly currently unites states marine corps is the only operator of these machines.So yes they are deadly and high tech compared to other in the market.



Its Not expensive if you consider 1000 hellfire Block II Missiles plus continued support and spares, training, lifecycle costs etc. Its all accounted for. $952 million is the total cost of those elements.

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## Muhammad Omar

SecularNationalist said:


> I highly doubt we are buying these toys brand new and even if we would have bought them new the maximum cost should be $465 million ($31 million each new multiply 15) the used cost $27 million each. So why we are paying $1 billion ? We are getting these toys but paying a way more price.But the interesting thing about these helicopters is that first they got launched in 2010 which shows they are the latest tech and secondly currently unites states marine corps is the only operator of these machines.So yes they are deadly and high tech compared to other in the market.



these things we are getting in 1 Billion$

15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters
32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)
1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers
36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers
17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems
30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems
19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl
17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe
17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems
17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets
18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers
15 Joint Mission Planning Systems
17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

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## Kompromat

قناص said:


> But sir US marines were not in any war as we were and also this seems lame excuse because when US desired it was able to produce 1 viper a day at Fort Worth, Texas Plant.



Will you be willing to sell JF-17 Thunders BEFORE PAF fulfills its requirements ?

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> I have heard some talk about Z-10 order ranging between 50-70 units in the long term with local production, provided trials are successful.


Until know it has shown outstanding performance in Urban area last night it was flown in high cross winds,lightning and heavy rain+it was hovered for long time in that condition.

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## SecularNationalist

Horus said:


> Here we go


At least a moderator should not act like fan boy or a juvenile. Sir! with all due respect you should do your research first .We are paying a out outrageous high price for something which does not worth it.Not just that we are also putting our newly developed good relations with russia in danger.

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> Will you be willing to sell JF-17 Thunders BEFORE PAF fulfills its requirements ?


They will if they get a considerable order and they are capable to do so.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

VelocuR said:


> *Spend budget wisely for our needs*


The second picture is of Cobra.

This is Zulu


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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> Its Not expensive if you consider 1000 hellfire Block II Missiles plus c*ontinued support and spares*, training, lifecycle costs etc. Its all accounted for. $952 million is the total cost of those elements.


sir with due respect this part can never be trusted looking at record of Past 67 years.


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## Kompromat

SecularNationalist said:


> At least a moderator should not act like fan boy or a juvenile. Sir! with all due respect you should do your research first .We are paying a out outrageous high price for something which does not worth it.Not just that we are also putting our newly developed good relations with russia in danger.



We are not paying for it


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## SecularNationalist

Muhammad Omar said:


> these things we are getting in 1 Billion$
> 
> 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters
> 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)
> 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers
> 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers
> 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems
> 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems
> 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl
> 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe
> 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems
> 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets
> 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers
> 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems
> 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.


Then it,s sound reasonable but still if the russian Mi5 can get the same job done then why pay a higher price ?


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## Muhammad Omar

SecularNationalist said:


> Then it,s sound reasonable but still if the russian Mi5 can get the same job done then why pay a higher price ?



Mi-35 are not for replacing Cobras

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## DANGER-ZONE

Horus said:


> Calm down dude. The US Marines didn't get their delivery until this year which was a priority.



My friend, its not about getting the deliveries but recognising and approving the deal at the time or a little while after the request was made. China has given us its top notch chopper for free, of course for trials but have US is giving second in the line attack helo for 1 billion and only 15 of them with its teeth.
In that money China can give you something equally deadly as Apache.

Pakistan military's obsession of US hardware has cost us alot.

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## VelocuR

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The second picture is of Cobra.
> 
> This is Zulu
> 
> View attachment 212619



Well, no big differences except nose. This is worst tiny helicopter in my opinion that Pakistan shouldn't purchase it or buy AH-64 better quality with 5000x Hellfire Missiles.


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## Sine Nomine

Stealth said:


> Inshort Amreekan baray Harami hain....
> 
> Pakistan request for zulu 5 years ago (15X initial) rejected by US. They all of the sudden approve 15X sales becuz of fear of "Pakistan haath say nikal na jaye". I bet Pakistan even don't knnow that State. Dept will approve this request. Pakistan don't have 1 Billion seperately for this... even U.S. will agree to sell these 15 even Pakistan show "No further interest in Zulu" the reason is pretty clear. PAkistan don't need 15X Helis... as far as my info, Pakistan need 30 + Attack helis to ensure on both borders. This Mi 35 + 1 more attack heli is basically for balance of power on both borders. Now achanak 15X zulu, You will see soon Pakistan ask for 15 + more if 15 approved ones arrived asap...


@Horus frankly speaking PAA Ah-1 fleet is nightmare for Indian Armored formation,when we demanded Ah-1z they only rejected to please India,know when we are going to have Ah-10 they are just trying to stop us by offering us 15 units actually we need more then that with continued support and spares that is thing for which only china can be trusted.


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## SecularNationalist

Horus said:


> We are not paying for it


They are approved for sale and if we are willing to buy then we are going to pay for them.


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## Kompromat

SecularNationalist said:


> Then it,s sound reasonable but still if the russian Mi5 can get the same job done then why pay a higher price ?



Because it can't do the same job.



SecularNationalist said:


> They are approved for sale and if we are willing to buy then we are going to pay for them.



They will be paid by FMS fund.


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## Farah Sohail

Horus said:


> If US is selling its Vipers then it means they refused to clear engines for T-129.



 How can US refuse to sell engines for T-129 to Pak and then sell its own helicopters. On wht principle? I mean, i know..there are hardly any principles invlved in such things... But on basis of which argument...atleast on face value..why hv they refused sales of T-129 engnes to Pak and then selling its own? Turkey was willing to sell them on favorable terms and price..... I still would like to hope to see t-129 in Pak.... If possible...to enhance Tukey Pak cooperation... And some people ..earlier used to perfer z-10 over T129 due to possibility of them being prone to sanction for having US engines...now wht abtAH 1Z?


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## SecularNationalist

Muhammad Omar said:


> Mi-35 are not for replacing Cobras


Oh right we must keep our traditions alive of buying expensive American military hardware


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## fazeel baig

Pakistan must buy z-10

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## abbasalai




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## ACE OF THE AIR

VelocuR said:


> Well, no big differences except nose. This is worst tiny helicopter in my opinion that Pakistan shouldn't purchase it or buy AH-64 better quality with 5000x Hellfire Missiles.


Have you seen the rotters? It is a new design. 

Bell AH-1Z Viper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Muhammad Omar

SecularNationalist said:


> Oh right we must keep our traditions alive of buying expensive American military hardware



if we are getting 15 of it where does it say we refused Z-10? still 35-40 units required to replace Cobras


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Farah Sohail said:


> How can US refuse to sell engines for T-129 to Pak and then sell its own helicopters. On wht principle? I mean, i know..there are hardly any principles invlved in such things... But on basis of which argument...atleast on face value..why hv they refused sales of T-129 engnes to Pak and then selling its own? Turkey was willing to sell them on favorable terms and price..... I still would like to hope to see t-129 in Pak.... If possible...to enhance Tukey Pak cooperation... And some people ..earlier used to perfer z-10 over T129 due to possibility of them being prone to sanction for having US engines...now wht abtAH 1Z?


T-129B was the one that Pakistan was after so one can say that it would have either a Turkish engine or could have the ones on the AH-1's


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## Dalit

Not a good idea at all. Too expensive and we're relying on an unreliable supplier. There are better alternatives out there. There is a reason why the Yanks are suddenly so eager to sell attack choppers. These are the same Americans that were unwilling to sell any attack choppers to Pakistan before. Russia and China are willing to sell attack choppers.

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## SecularNationalist

Horus said:


> They will be paid by FMS fund.


That,s great but only if there is no loan with a higher interest rate later involved.


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## Kompromat

Farah Sohail said:


> How can US refuse to sell engines for T-129 to Pak and then sell its own helicopters. On wht principle? I mean, i know..there are hardly any principles invlved in such things... But on basis of which argument...atleast on face value..why hv they refused sales of T-129 engnes to Pak and then selling its own? Turkey was willing to sell them on favorable terms and price..... I still would like to hope to see t-129 in Pak.... If possible...to enhance Tukey Pak cooperation... And some people ..earlier used to perfer z-10 over T129 due to possibility of them being prone to sanction for having US engines...now wht abtAH 1Z?



Welcome to international arms market.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Horus said:


> Welcome to international arms market.


Make this thread a sticky one because it is going to get much more viral once our Indian friend wake up

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## SecularNationalist

Muhammad Omar said:


> if we are getting 15 of it where does it say we refused Z-10? still 35-40 units required to replace Cobras


Well i think after seeing too much pain and betrayal from america may i be i have a natural tendency of disliking them .I personally think now it,s enough and we should not rely on america anymore .There are other countries which offer the same high tech or more advanced equipment at a better price .


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## VelocuR

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Have you seen the rotters? It is a new design.
> 
> Bell AH-1Z Viper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I see, they are upgraded to four rotters and new nose. Nah, it doesn't make us feel very attraction toward that navy tiny helicopter.


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## SecularNationalist

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Make this thread a sticky one because it is going to get much more viral once our Indian friend wake up


It,s 12:15 pm in india they are already awaken probably  May be they are too busy buying some burnol

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## Kompromat

SecularNationalist said:


> Well i think after seeing too much pain and betrayal from america may i be i have a natural tendency of disliking them .I personally think now it,s enough and we should not rely on america anymore .There are other countries which offer the same high tech or more advanced equipment at a better price .



Bhai what is it that you don't understand?

As i stated above there will be HILO mix for attack helicopters. Both AH-1Z and Z-10 will become the high and low end solutions.
Pakistan has separated Mi-35 from that calculus as we no longer classify it as an attack helicopter but an assault helicopter.

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## Donatello

How about please no? Why the heck is Pakistan getting these?

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## Zarvan

Donatello said:


> How about please no? Why the heck is Pakistan getting these?


Because we love them and hellfire missiles


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## Kompromat

Donatello said:


> How about please no? Why the heck is Pakistan getting these?



Because with these 1000 hellfire Block-IIs you can kill off an entire Indian armored invasion. Thank You

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## Manticore

SecularNationalist said:


> At least a moderator should not act like fan boy or a juvenile. Sir! with all due respect you should do your research first .We are paying a out outrageous high price for something which does not worth it.Not just that we are also putting our newly developed good relations with russia in danger.



lets compare the cost with the indian apache deal

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## Donatello

Horus said:


> Because with these 1000 hellfire Block-IIs you can kill off an entire Indian armored invasion. Thank You



Who is paying for these, and why again American weapons? That's what is pissing me off.

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## Kompromat

Donatello said:


> Who is paying for these, and why again American weapons? That's what is pissing me off.



FMS


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## Donatello

Horus said:


> FMS



Bro, FMS doesn't mean they will be all paid by USA.


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## Manticore



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## Kompromat

Donatello said:


> Bro, FMS doesn't mean they will be all paid by USA.



We will see


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## skybolt



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## DANGER-ZONE

Horus said:


> FMS



FMS means more conditions, not good for Pakistan. Soft loans are a lot better, at least we will pay them ourselves.We as a nation need to get out of the paralyzed state, we are not beggars.
These FMS sales and their conditions will not only affect our present but also destroy the future of our next generation.

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## A1Kaid

Doesn't Parliament have to authorize the purchase of these attack helicopters? This seems like a bad deal when there are better alternatives for the money.


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## Slides

A1Kaid said:


> Doesn't Parliament have to authorize the purchase of these attack helicopters? This seems like a bad deal when there are better alternatives for the money.



Parliament's thappa is the least of anyone's worries.


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## The SC

Quite impressive platform. Impressive is the number of hellfire missiles too at 1000 units.

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## skybolt

*AH-1Z Pilots with Helmet Mounted Displays
*​*



*

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## 帅的一匹

C130 said:


> Z-10 is underpowered . It's like the Tigre but less sophisticated.
> 
> I would remove Z-10 and go for a light scout helicopter like the MD-530G or AH-6I


then you start going fully retarded, I hope you will send spares in time when Pakistan have war with India. A fake non- white American give sincere advice to Pakistani, joke if the Centuary.

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## SipahSalar

"Oh no, just 15. "
It's obvious none of you know what a Zulu is.
It is literally an Apache in every way and form except combat radius.
The exact same systems are used in both helicopters.
The only difference is that Apaches are used by the Army and Super Cobra's are used by Marine Corps.
So yes, it won't be cheap.
Besides, all of you are missing the 1000 hellfires.
1 hellfire = $100,000
These hellfires can also be used on Burraq drones.


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## skybolt




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## 帅的一匹

with 1000000000 USD, you can buy 20 units of brand new J10b unless you are full retarded. 20 J10 can beat the shit out of AH1Z.

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## Kompromat

Does it have a micro millimeter radar?


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## 帅的一匹

SipahSalar said:


> "Oh no, just 15. "
> It's obvious none of you know what a Zulu is.
> It is literally an Apache in every way and form except combat radius.
> The exact same systems are used in both helicopters.
> The only difference is that Apaches are used by the Army and Super Cobra's are used by Marine Corps.
> So yes, it won't be cheap.
> Besides, all of you are missing the 1000 hellfires.
> 1 hellfire = $100,000
> These hellfires can also be used on Burraq drones.


that's hell lots of money just to kill Taliban.

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## Donatello

Just hope Pakistan knows what they are doing......and not going full retard.



wanglaokan said:


> that's hell lots of money just to kill Taliban.



Yup, not just Taliban! 



Horus said:


> Does it have a micro millimeter radar?



Usually mounted on the top of the main rotor....so seems like no........also no included in the list of equipment purchased breakdown...so i am assuming no.

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## SipahSalar

Pakistan should also look for a deal where we can upgrade our old cobras to the Zulu standard.
H-1 upgrade program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Kompromat

Donatello said:


> Just hope Pakistan knows what they are doing......and not going full retard.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, not just Taliban!
> 
> 
> 
> Usually mounted on the top of the main rotor....so seems like no........also no included in the list of equipment purchased breakdown...so i am assuming no.



It can be hung on the wing tip. And yes i am not happy about its non inclusion.


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## 帅的一匹

Donatello said:


> Just hope Pakistan knows what they are doing......and not going full retard.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, not just Taliban!
> 
> 
> 
> Usually mounted on the top of the main rotor....so seems like no........also no included in the list of equipment purchased breakdown...so i am assuming no.


WZ10 with MMR is under testing, you will see it soon after new engine installed.

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## Whirling_dervesh

Do not go the way of the USA, people have short memories. if it means using our own money then we should go with turkey or china. Or even invest that billion in developing our own jv with china or turkey. However if these are part of fms and free then I say that's fine

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## Path-Finder

SipahSalar said:


> "Oh no, just 15. "
> It's obvious none of you know what a Zulu is.
> It is literally an Apache in every way and form except combat radius.
> The exact same systems are used in both helicopters.
> The only difference is that Apaches are used by the Army and Super Cobra's are used by Marine Corps.
> So yes, it won't be cheap.
> Besides, all of you are missing the 1000 hellfires.
> 1 hellfire = $100,000
> These hellfires can also be used on Burraq drones.



Incredibly Sensible Post. That sums up AH-1Z it is a excellent machine without the maintenance cost of Apache.


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## Donatello

wanglaokan said:


> WZ10 with MMR is under testing, you will see it soon after new engine installed.


WZ10 will be tested and if procured, would form the Backbone.....i guess the PAA wants to increase the overall number of attack choppers from current 50..........split b/w anti insurgency and anti-armor role on the east.


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## ali_raza

this is going to be intresting.the is going out of the hands.the nation before couple of months depressed abd all that.suddenly chips are falling our way.


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## 帅的一匹

I say USA shall give half discount, cause killing Taliban is at USA's interest as well.


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## SipahSalar

Horus said:


> I will repeat again Pakistan needs to replace over 50 units of Cobras, which helicopter will replace them?


Maybe there is no need to replace them? You can just upgrade them to the zulu standard. Will be cheaper.


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## Kompromat

SipahSalar said:


> Maybe there is no need to replace them? You can just upgrade them to the zulu standard. Will be cheaper.



Not possible.


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## SipahSalar

Horus said:


> Not possible.


Why is it not possible? A lot of Cobras in US inventory went through the same upgrade. 
H-1 upgrade program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



VelocuR said:


> Well, no big differences except nose. This is worst tiny helicopter in my opinion that Pakistan shouldn't purchase it or buy AH-64 better quality with 5000x Hellfire Missiles.


I don't know if you are trolling or what. The biggest difference is that Zulu is TWIN ENGINE. Secondly it has the exact same systems the Apache does.


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## Kompromat

SipahSalar said:


> Why is it not possible? A lot of Cobras in US inventory went through the same upgrade.
> H-1 upgrade program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



They upgraded Whisky Cobras. Ours are from the Vietnam war era and have since worn out.


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## Whirling_dervesh

This nothing but offering a very beautiful women to a very hard up man. On the surface the hard up man is blinded by the beauty, body and assets of this gorgeous woman, the man knows the assets will turn heads and give him great enjoyment in every way. He knows her weapons and class will give a big blow to the enemy and envious neighbours..........

The drawbacks with this come n the form of belligerent in laws, unreliable, argumentative and untrustworthy. The hard up man knows she may be untrustworthy her figure design and body may have been tampered with and the rishta has comes with plenty of strings attached, she may become unfaithful her serial codes compromised and tracking system in place by her father.

The alternative is reliable,honest,modest maybe not as glamourous or as advanced but homely and the inlaws are very close family friends...


You decide

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## SikandarKhan

Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment


besides fascination we get quality too, from which our own defense industry can learn alot. What about a mixture of Viper and Z10? Makes alot of sense to me.


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## Sulman Badshah

Horus said:


> Does it have a micro millimeter radar?


It will be integrated with longbow radar by the 2016 ... Heard in an interview 2 years ago

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## skybolt

*Specifications (AH-1Z)*

*General characteristics


Crew: 2: pilot, co-pilot/gunner (CPG)
Capacity: 6,661 lb (3,021 kg)
Length: 58 ft 3 in (17.8 m)
Rotor diameter: 48 ft (14.6 m)
Height: 14 ft 4 in (4.37 m)
Disc area: 1,808 ft² (168.0 m²)
Empty weight: 12,300 lb (5,580 kg)
Useful load: 5,764 lb (2,620 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 18,500 lb (8,390 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft, 1,800 shp (1,340 kW) each
Rotor systems: 4 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor
Performance

Never exceed speed: 222 knots (255 mph, 411 km/h) in a dive
Cruise speed: 160 kn (184 mph, 296 km/h)
Range: 370 nmi (426 mi, 685 km)
Combat radius: 125 nmi (144 mi, 231 km) with 2,500 lb (1,130 kg) payload
Service ceiling: 20,000+ ft (6,000+ m)
Rate of climb: 2,790 ft/min (14.2 m/s)
Armament

Guns: 1 × 20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon in the A/A49E-7 turret (750 round ammo capacity)
Hardpoints: Up to 6 pylon stations on stub wing
Rockets: 2.75 in (70 mm) Hydra 70 or APKWS II rockets – Mounted in LAU-68C/A (7 shot) or LAU-61D/A (19 shot) launchers
Missiles:
AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles – 1 mounted on each wing tip station (total of 2)
AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface missiles – Up to 16 missiles mounted in four 4-round M272 missile launchers, two on each wing

Avionics

Lockheed Martin / Northrop Grumman AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar
*


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## araz

Viper0011. said:


> Not your rulers.....your generals to be precise!!! Quit blaming every fukup of everyone on to the rulers. Civilians don't give out a list of weapons to buy, the military does. The least you can do when you write, is to keep some honesty in your posts!! You are obviously one of IK's propagandist, like him, you all lie shamelessly and for no reason!
> 
> And by the way, its actually a good deal if you read into all details. A Viper-Z, is hell of an advanced combat helicopter. A close match to the Apaches.


I would add that the infra structure established for the Cobras will be modified a little to accommodate the Zulus. This would make life a lot simpler for the techs plus for depot level maintenance.This plus the hell fires that come with it(1000) are simply the icing on the cake. To be honest we have not been honest with the US in the recent past either, so why blame the US if it has asked us to stick to our side of the bargain.
Araz

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## SipahSalar

Apparently this deal was approved 5 years ago in 2010. So now it is obvious it will have no affect on Z-10 purchase.

US delivers Cobra helicopter gunships to Pakistan

Pakistan has also been assured it would receive the latest AH-1Z variant in phases by 2015, the sources added.
The AH-1 has been supplied by the US America from its Jordan Air Base stock.
The twin blade, single engined gunships have a crew of two, comprising a pilot and a co-pilot or a gunner.

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## Mohsin123

This is a decision which should be made very carefully, in my opinion. Instead of having an orgasm over american equipment, it should be realized that we had to pay a dear price for putting our trust in americans. This is the first time in 30 to 40 years that we have a chance to milk the situation according to our needs because we have three big contenders offering us their top of the line equipment. Lets be honest these viper Z's are over kill for these Khawarji Dogs. As for india these vipers are a great option but reality is that for the next 10 to 15 years there is very little chance of us getting engaged in a full scale conflict with them and i think our strategy makers know that , so chinese option in reality is inferior to viper Z's but it gives us great opportunity to build our capabilities in the near future. So how i see is these 1 billion dollars should be put in modding the WZ-10 according to our requirements instead of being spent on a short term solution wit a lot of uncertainity in the future.


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## Zarvan

SipahSalar said:


> Apparently this deal was approved 5 years ago in 2010. So now it is obvious it will have no affect on Z-10 purchase.
> 
> US delivers Cobra helicopter gunships to Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan has also been assured it would receive the latest AH-1Z variant in phases by 2015, the sources added.
> The AH-1 has been supplied by the US America from its Jordan Air Base stock.
> The twin blade, single engined gunships have a crew of two, comprising a pilot and a co-pilot or a gunner.


These helicopters are coming due to General Raheel efforts and his visit to USA


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## qamar1990

Salahadin said:


> By
> DOUG CAMERON
> April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET
> 
> View attachment 212609
> 
> 
> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.
> 
> U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.
> 
> Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.
> 
> Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com
> 
> State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ


lol at indians...


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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan will buy three types
> 
> MI-35 deal sign
> cobra approved
> z-10 under trail we will decide


Good point. The trials are not complete. We have already talked about an uprated engine(?WZ16Turbo shaft) and the PA may yet propose changes for best outcome. I think at best it is a work in progress and the long term replacement for our cobras. We need something to match the fire power on the other side and we have been after the Zulus for some time. So I think it is a good deal and we should take it. A question that comes to mind is will the Cobras have to be upgraded to be able to fire the hell fire and if so what changes will be required if any?
Araz

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## Viper0011.

SipahSalar said:


> Apparently this deal was approved 5 years ago in 2010. So now it is obvious it will have no affect on Z-10 purchase.
> 
> US delivers Cobra helicopter gunships to Pakistan
> 
> Pakistan has also been assured it would receive the latest AH-1Z variant in phases by 2015, the sources added.
> The AH-1 has been supplied by the US America from its Jordan Air Base stock.
> The twin blade, single engined gunships have a crew of two, comprising a pilot and a co-pilot or a gunner.



This news in the post above, isn't for the Viper Zulu version. The Zulu version has 4 rotor blades as it was one of the major upgrades. Essentially, Viper Zulu is a new chopper that looks like the older Cobra, but capability wise, it's a lot more than the older version. It can carry 16 ATG missiles like the Apache does with 2 sidewinders, or 8 ATG missiles, heavy rocket pods and 2 side winders. 

The news above is for the older Cobras which were given to Pakistan for its war on terror. The thread is about DSCA's notification to congress which then requires 30 days for congress to either approve the sale or table it. Until then, not even a bullet can be supplied to anyone as its the law.

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## qamar1990

Beast said:


> US only sold pakistan the gunship becos China can provide WZ-10 gunship. If China never sell WZ-10 to PA. US will continue sanction PA equipment. I hope Pakistan can see the true color of US.


china is a great friend

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## Kompromat

araz said:


> Good point. The trials are not complete. We have already talked about an uprated engine(?WZ16Turbo shaft) and the PA may yet propose changes for best outcome. I think at best it is a work in progress and the long term replacement for our cobras. We need something to match the fire power on the other side and we been after the Zulus for some time. So I think it is a good deal and we should take it.A question that comes to mind is will the Cobras have to be upgraded to be able to fire the hell fire and if so what changes will be required if any?
> Araz



Definitely a micro milimeter wave radar.

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## RAMPAGE

Donatello said:


> How about please no? Why the heck is Pakistan getting these?


Coz the romance continues.

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## SipahSalar

Viper0011. said:


> This news in the post above, isn't for the Viper Zulu version. The Zulu version has 4 rotor blades as it was one of the major upgrades. Essentially, Viper Zulu is a new chopper that looks like the older Cobra, but capability wise, it's a lot more than the older version. It can carry 16 ATG missiles like the Apache does with 2 sidewinders, or 8 ATG missiles, heavy rocket pods and 2 side winders.
> 
> The news above is for the older Cobras which were given to Pakistan for its war on terror. The thread is about DSCA's notification to congress which then requires 30 days for congress to either approve the sale or table it. Until then, not even a bullet can be supplied to anyone as its the law.


You should have read the news article i posted before posting. It mentions that 14 helicopters have been delivered AND AH-1Z will be delivered in 2015. And todays news corresponds with that.

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## Beast

Hope PA gets the viper and first thing Pakistanis shall do when they gets their hand on this viper is to send it to China to allow us inspect thoroughly of this helo so that in war with US, we will know what to do with US marine corps.

US Double cross Pakistan and there is no need to be nice to Uncle Sam. To US, it's all about business.

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## 帅的一匹

SikandarKhan said:


> besides fascination we get quality too, from which our own defense industry can learn alot. What about a mixture of Viper and Z10? Makes alot of sense to me.


sounds great

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## abbasalai

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1429096030736072

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Hope PA gets the viper and first thing Pakistanis shall do when they gets their hand on this viper is to send it to China to allow us inspect thoroughly of this helo so that in war with US, we will know what to do with US marine corps.
> 
> US Double cross Pakistan and there is no need to be nice to Uncle Sam. To US, it's all about business.


not gonna be possible. USA will keep their eyes closely on those Viper. USA will check it frequently, just Like F16 of PAF.

Viper for China is not some super advanced weapon anymore, we don't need to check it.

in this case, you will put Pakistan in dilemma. we don't wanna put our friends in embarrassment.

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## SipahSalar

Beast said:


> Hope PA gets the viper and first thing Pakistanis shall do when they gets their hand on this viper is to send it to China to allow us inspect thoroughly of this helo so that in war with US, we will know what to do with US marine corps.


USA is very touchy about its equipment. In 2009 Pakistan Navy was conducting tests of a land attack missile and US started screaming murder that it's harpoons were modified to attack land targets. Can you imagine them being paranoid about something sold 30 years ago? We immediately agreed to inspections and US ended up embarrassing itself.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html

Point being, they keep a very very close eye on their equipment. They also have support staff with important hardware 24/7. For example, Pakistan Navy's P-3C has US navy personnel with them at all times at Mehran Air Base.

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## pakdefender

Pakistan Army Aviation has experienced Cobra pilots so this sale if it goes through will be good for ongoing operations.
In the future we will have a mix of gunships , which is not ideal but we don't have a choice



Imran Khan said:


> pakistan will buy three types
> 
> MI-35 deal sign
> cobra approved
> z-10 under trail we will decide



That is most likely to be the case


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## Paksanity

AH-1Z is as close as you can get to AH-64D. AH-1Z is far superior to Z-10s and Mi-28s. For its agility it outperforms even Apache. So I am happy with this deal. 

It looks to me PA is modelling it's attack heli fleet on the lines of PAF i.e. fewer top of the line birds with many a notch below. As I see it we may have about 15-25 AH-Z, 40 or so Mi-28 and Mi-35 mix. I am not sure about Chinese ones but apparently they are loosing the race. 

A thousand Hellfire is a lot of missiles. I am pretty sure bulk of it will be reserved for Anti-Armour role in the east. Most probably bulk of ops in FATA will be carried out by Mi-35s, Cobras (old) and gifted Z-10s.

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## pakdefender

For ongoing operations we should also consider surveillance blimps over operational area for 24/7 monitoring and surveillance

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## Zarvan

araz said:


> Good point. The trials are not complete. We have already talked about an uprated engine(?WZ16Turbo shaft) and the PA may yet propose changes for best outcome. I think at best it is a work in progress and the long term replacement for our cobras. We need something to match the fire power on the other side and we been after the Zulus for some time. So I think it is a good deal and we should take it.A question that comes to mind is will the Cobras have to be upgraded to be able to fire the hell fire and if so what changes will be required if any?
> Araz


I hardly doubt that cobras will be upgraded I think they will be retired


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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> Repeating the lesson again
> 
> 
> Mi-35s are NOT for the Army, they most likely will be used by Special Forces as Airborne assault element.
> 
> Z-10 is under evaluation, 3 of them are already in Pakistan and if their trials are successful they'll replace our old Cobras
> 15 AH-1Z Vipers deal is 'done' by the looks of it & it will be provide the high tech element in our attack heli line up.
> However, i must say that i am VERY surprised at this deal, i must admit that i didn't see this one coming.



Well there is a lot to be discussed,
Mi-35 surely will be more of IFV that can fly, the main role seem to be anti insurgency/counter terrorism. They are the best option considering there ability to carry troops in and out of battle field and providing AWESOME fire power, almost as much as any attack helicopter. The firepower is on par any other attack helicopter and troop carrying capability is a plus. They do however lack that sophisticated electronics pack required in modern warfare. 

The modern warfare, this is where Z-10 will come in. Although under evaluation, it is most likely that the evaluation wont result in a rejection but in feedback to further improve and customize the platform to meet the PA needs. So in nut shell, the Z-10 seem set to be PA's future attack helicopter. May be in a modified form but still...

now comes this pill that is hard to swallow, the sudden found love of USA for Pakistan and there willingness to provide PA with AH-1Z. Admitted that the had there own requirements to address first. However accepting that now that this is done they are willing to supply their ALL WEATHER ALLY with this LATEST war machine and that the timing is just a coincidence is not possible. Furthermore considering the MASSIVE problems we have faced in maintaining our older fleet time and time again due to various reasons, this choice seem that much more bad one. I understand that we have good experience on these machines, have a well established maintenance facility but do these things out-weight the fragile Pak-US relations and the implication on keeping these helos flying in near future? the army seem to think that it is and they are the ones whos thoughts matter. Still, that dont stop anyone from sharing there view.  For me this move is a bad one, specially at 1 billion uS$



Horus said:


> We are not paying for it


Sorry but i dont think so, gov have APPROVED the purchase of this equipment worth 1 billion US$. if these were coming in grant then there was no point of Gov approving the funds. Approving the helicopter induction in that case makes some sense since after all these machines are to be operated by the Pakistan's Army so the Pakistan Government is approving there use/induction but approving funds for the helicopters coming in as FMF or grant seems unlikely.



Horus said:


> Its Not expensive if you consider 1000 hellfire Block II Missiles plus *continued support and spares, training, lifecycle costs etc.* Its all accounted for. $952 million is the total cost of those elements.


There must be a big question mark on the bold part. Even in Army's mind, even if they have considered all these risks worth taking.


The only thing i can think of to convince or calm myself is that:
The army correctly values the AH-1Z helicopters as a trust worth platform (a trust worthy machine even thigh not from a trust worthy supplier) and feels that these will form the spear head of Pakistan Army Aviation attack fleet. A Hi-Lo mix. Apart from all this technological advantages, the main thing they may have considered is that with so many other options, these wont be major blackmailing chips anymore. US may not block supplies of spares etc considering that they will know that PA have other options available, and, most probably, operation in form of Z-10 and even Mi-35. So considering all this they are not very concerned that getting these will risk future Attack Helicopter operations even in face of embargo's.

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## SipahSalar

Arsalan said:


> now comes this pill that is hard to swallow, the sudden found love of USA for Pakistan and there willingness to provide PA with AH-1Z.


It's not sudden. The deal done in 2010.


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## Donatello

Viper0011. said:


> This news in the post above, isn't for the Viper Zulu version. The Zulu version has 4 rotor blades as it was one of the major upgrades. Essentially, Viper Zulu is a new chopper that looks like the older Cobra, but capability wise, it's a lot more than the older version. It can carry 16 ATG missiles like the Apache does with 2 sidewinders, or 8 ATG missiles, heavy rocket pods and 2 side winders.
> 
> The news above is for the older Cobras which were given to Pakistan for its war on terror. The thread is about DSCA's notification to congress which then requires 30 days for congress to either approve the sale or table it. Until then, not even a bullet can be supplied to anyone as its the law.



If state department has approved, then most probably Congress will as well....with some fake votes of refusal. Plus these are attack choppers, which Pakistan rightfully needs for the genuine COIN operations.....so nothing fishy there. The earlier AH-1Z requests were refused due to various reasons.......but this is indeed a whole new chopper twin engine and four blade chopper.


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> not gonna be possible. USA will keep their eyes closely on those Viper. USA will check it frequently, just Like F16 of PAF.
> 
> Viper for China is not some super advanced weapon anymore, we don't need to check it.
> 
> in this case, you will put Pakistan in dilemma. we don't wanna put our friends in embarrassment.


The things is in Pakistanis hand. No way , they can afford 24hrs surveillance. It has been done and it can be done.


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## mughaljee

Don't Trust . Un Saam. 
Love to


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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> I have heard some talk about Z-10 order ranging between 50-70 units in the long term with local production, provided trials are successful.
> 
> 
> 
> If US is selling its Vipers then it means they refused to clear engines for T-129.



oo bahi ge, please.... abhi T-129 baki haa??
are we planning to get a pair of every attack helicopter to have ever made. Mix chat? 

What you have said earlier makes sense. 

Mi-35 COIN operations, SSG work horse.
AH-1Z, dont know what  (a feel good machines but not ONLY FEEL GOOD MACHINE, an option with proven systems and lots of experience on) 
WZ-10 (modified/customized after evaluation of the three operational examples) as the main stay and back bone of Pakistan Army Aviation assault helicopters. WE may like to right WZ-10/T-129 in this last line instead of only WZ-10 but i do not think the latter comes with that much liberty of customization and modifications so feel contend with these three for now

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## Donatello

SipahSalar said:


> It's not sudden. The deal done in 2010.



No it wasn't....it was refused back then.....and then shyt went south after 2011....



Arsalan said:


> Well there is a lot to be discussed,
> Mi-35 surely will be more of IFV that can fly, the main role seem to be anti insurgency/counter terrorism. They are the best option considering there ability to carry troops in and out of battle field and providing AWESOME fire power, almost as much as any attack helicopter. The firepower is on par any other attack helicopter and troop carrying capability is a plus. They do however lack that sophisticated electronics pack required in modern warfare.
> 
> The modern warfare, this is where Z-10 will come in. Although under evaluation, it is most likely that the evaluation wont result in a rejection but in feedback to further improve and customize the platform to meet the PA needs. So in nut shell, the Z-10 seem set to be PA's future attack helicopter. May be in a modified form but still...
> 
> now comes this pill that is hard to swallow, the sudden found love of USA for Pakistan and there willingness to provide PA with AH-1Z. Admitted that the had there own requirements to address first. However accepting that now that this is done they are willing to supply their ALL WEATHER ALLY with this LATEST war machine and that the timing is just a coincidence is not possible. Furthermore considering the MASSIVE problems we have faced in maintaining our older fleet time and time again due to various reasons, this choice seem that much more bad one. I understand that we have good experience on these machines, have a well established maintenance facility but do these things out-weight the fragile Pak-US relations and the implication on keeping these helos flying in near future? the army seem to think that it is and they are the ones whos thoughts matter. Still, that dont stop anyone from sharing there view.  For me this move is a bad one, specially at 1 billion uS$
> 
> 
> Sorry but i dont think so, gov have APPROVED the purchase of this equipment worth 1 billion US$. if these were coming in grant then there was no point of Gov approving the funds. Approving the helicopter induction in that case makes some sense since after all these machines are to be operated by the Pakistan's Army so the Pakistan Government is approving there use/induction but approving funds for the helicopters coming in as FMF or grant seems unlikely.
> 
> 
> There must be a big question mark on the bold part. Even in Army's mind, even if they have considered all these risks worth taking.
> 
> 
> The only thing i can think of to convince or calm myself is that:
> The army correctly values the AH-1Z helicopters as a trust worth platform (a trust worthy machine even thigh not from a trust worthy supplier) and feels that these will form the spear head of Pakistan Army Aviation attack fleet. A Hi-Lo mix. Apart from all this technological advantages, the main thing they may have considered is that with so many other options, these wont be major blackmailing chips anymore. US may not block supplies of spares etc considering that they will know that PA have other options available, and, most probably, operation in form of Z-10 and even Mi-35. So considering all this they are not very concerned that getting these will risk future Attack Helicopter operations even in face of embargo's.




Sir you think playing with Russians, Chinese, Turkish and Americans was just to get the best deal?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Realistically speaking .. We should go for Vipers aswell as upgraded Z-10s (Gives us a lot of flexibility - options for upgradation etc) !

Screw the MI-35s.... T-129 is a dead deal.


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## Donatello

Two things:

1- A moment of silence for the Indian girl asking Obama why Pakistan is not labelled a terrorist state:





2-Isn't this the biggest arms purchase from USA, by Pakistan, under the Obama government?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SipahSalar said:


> It's not sudden. The deal done in 2010.


The US declined the vipers at that time remember? (Reason: They were equipping their marine corps).

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## araz

Beast said:


> US only sold pakistan the gunship becos China can provide WZ-10 gunship. If China never sell WZ-10 to PA. US will continue sanction PA equipment. I hope Pakistan can see the true color of US.


I dont think that is strictly true. I know the wrangling that goes on in the defence industry and the competition and more importantly the political influence that a deal of such nature brings to the fore. However, we have been hearing about the AH1Z since 2010 and the expected delivery /contract date was always going to be 2015.I know previously there have been problems but with the visit of General Raheel Shareef a lot of misunderstandings have been resolved and the US now has no excuse not to supply us with equipment which we need. To be honest you would be doing your intellect a disservice to suggest that Z10 is as good as the established AH series. 
So the next question is where does Z10 stand in the scenario. I don't know whether the results of the trial would be favourable or bring our deficiencies which will need to be rectified. You have to understand that PAA will not buy Z10 till it is completely happy with it. All that has happened is that with the MI35s coming this year, the Zulus coming in 2-3 yrs it has given PAA and also our Chinese brothers time to further fortify and mature the growth of this platform as well as fuldill the Chinese need. I think provided PAA likes Z10 it will always use it to replace the AH1s which are getting very tired and cumbersome from the spares point of view.Unfortunately if there is a major deficiency which I think will not be the case either MI28 or T129 will step in. This not only gives us time to establish the platforms but also setup the infrastructure for the relevant platforms.

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## Sulman Badshah

*Weapons Capability*
• AGM-114A, B, and C Hellfire and anti-tank missiles up to 16 total
• AGM-114F Hellfire anti-ship missiles – up to 16 total
• 70mm Rockets, 19 or 7 shot pods – up to 76 total
• AIM-9 Sidewinder (A superior supersonic air-to-air missile with infrared target detection for fire and forget capability.)
• LUU-2A/B nighttime illumination flare
• Mk 77 fire bombs
• 77 and 100 gallon external auxiliary fuel tanks
• 20 mm cannon (With a higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory for better accuracy, it is capable of handling M50-series rounds designed specifically for air-to-air combat)
• MK 76 practice bombs
• BDU-33D/B practice bombs
• MK 106 practice bombs

*Survivability & Crashworthiness*
Like no other attack helicopter in the world, the AH-1Z survives combat with an advanced countermeasure suite, which includes:

• AVR-2A Laser Warning Receiver
• APR-39A(v) 2 Radar Warning Receiver
• ALE-47 “Smart” Countermeasures Dispenser and
• AAR-47 Missile Warning Device.
...and the latest airframe technologies, such as:
• Energy attenuating crashworthy seats
• Energy-absorbing landing gear
• Self sealing fuel tanks and fuel systems
• Fuel vapor inerting systems
• Mass retention designs to ensure major components stay where they should in the event of a crash, and many other advanced features.

*Modern Technology*
The AH-1Z is a design for the 21st century. Produced to meet the stringent requirements of the USMC today – its aircraft design brings together proven AH-1W airframe reliability, a new composite four bladed rotor system and powerful T700-GE-401engines. With virtually identical front and rear cockpits, fully integrated weapons, avionics and communications systems the AH-1Z flies with the most advanced aircraft survivability equipment in the world. The AH-1Z is truly state-of-the-art.

*Best Targeting System*
Target identification is critical in the complex post-cold war and urban conflict environments. The AH-1Z Target Sight System (TSS) incorporates a third-generation FLIR and currently provides the longest range, lowest jitter and highest weapons' accuracy possible of any helicopter sight in the world. In addition, the completely passive and automatic system scans the battlefield without emitting trackable radar, positively identifying and tracking multiple targets at ranges beyond the maximum range of its weapons system.

*Helmet Mounted Sight and Display System*
The "Top Owl" Helmet Mounted Sight and Display (HMS/D) system supports improved communication and reduced cockpit workload. Manufactured by THALES Avionics, the Top Owl HMS/D is the most technically advanced helmet available. Upgradeable "in-service" and as additional requirements develop, it combines both avionics function with the aircrew life support and protection into a single unit.

*Maintenance*
Designed for lower maintenance, with the helicopter mechanic in mind, the AH-1Z is one of the most reliable aircraft made. Maintenance features of the AH-1Z include:

• Fault detection sensors that facilitate “on-condition” maintenance
• Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals
• Better accessibility
• Elimination of certain maintenance tasks
• Less maintenance man hours per flight hour
• Less spares storage requirement

*Modern Cockpit*
Identical front and rear cockpits provide the true ability to fly and fight from either cockpit, so there's no need to have separate training programs for front or back seaters.

The Hands on Collective and Stick (HOCAS) side-stick architecture, allows pilot function without removing hands from the collective flight controls. Color displays are large, multifunctional and combined with the moving-map technology. Helmet mounted displays provide all the information required to engage the enemy more quickly and accurately.

*H1 Program Commonality*
Shared dynamics and nearly identical cockpits vastly reduces the logistical tail, procurement and training costs required to support a large fleet of mixed type aircraft. The AH-1Z and UH-1Y have 84% commonality with identical components.

Just as the AH-1W is being rebuilt and redesigned into the AH-1Z, the US Marine Corps Huey helicopters are being rebuilt and redesigned as well. The traditional reliability of the Huey series now contributes to the outstanding performance, state-of-the-art dynamics and avionics of the H1 Program.

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## SipahSalar

Donatello said:


> No it wasn't....it was refused back then.....and then shyt went south after 2011....





DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The US declined the vipers at that time remember? (Reason: They were equipping their marine corps).



Islamabad: In a move that is likely to raise temperatures across the border, the US has delivered a squadron of 14 AH-1 Cobra advanced helicopter gunships to Pakistan.

The US has also given $750,000 to update Pakistan Army Aviation's current fleet of Cobra variants like AH-1S, AH-1F.
Pakistan has also been assured it would receive the latest AH-1Z variant in phases by 2015, the sources added.
The AH-1 has been supplied by the US America from its Jordan Air Base stock.
US delivers Cobra helicopter gunships to Pakistan

When was this article published? 2010. What date did they say? 2015. Which version? AH-1Z. What year is this? 2015. Which helicopter are we getting? AH-1Z.
Now you guys are smart, you don't need me to do 2+2.

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## Arsalan

Donatello said:


> Sir you think playing with Russians, Chinese, Turkish and Americans was just to get the best deal?



Well i do not want to sound pessimistic but i wont celebrate this play till it is over and is in our favor. Our foreign policy is not as strong as other countries. We do not usually play out these situations well so can’t say until it’s over. We have had our fair share of opportunities to cash on but we often make nothing out of it (although we also have a few examples where we did achieved something)


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## Mughal-Prince

Imran Khan said:


> helicopter helicopters everywhere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> love to see hellfire missiles in pakistani hands



Yaar Imran saray freak out ho rahay hain en ko sumjhao bhai Yeh Imdad main mil jayen gay  free free free  ... And Z-10 is not going any where neither ATAK we will see it soon we will gonna over whelmed with systems availability .

1Z will be bought off the shelf where as ATAK will be with full TOT and then Z-10 will be progressed into an Apache like gunship in few years. So all the systems seems to be complementing each other ...
Kisi ki maiyya marnay wali hai yeh khaber parh ker  ROFL

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## araz

sameer hussain said:


> i would perfer to work with chinese with the Z-10 for the time being at least getting into helicopter maker and tranfer for technology and would enhance Pakistan capability.getting any coper is important as Pakistan is going self reliance which will help it grow its defence industry.


This deal does not stop anything. I think once the platform is mature PAA will certainly acquire it. This just gives us the breathing space that we need.
Araz


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## General General

Is it just me or are most comments here overlooking the fact that along with the 15 gunships, Pakistan is getting 30+ engines for these helos,
1000 latest R varient of Hellfire missiles,
a number of sophisticated intelligent communication equipment,
30+ helmet mounted displays,
technical documentation related to the gunships and their maintenance,
technical training and several years of support,
tools required to carry out the maintenance.

The full list is provided in this post.
I think $1 billion is a reasonable amount for this equipment. Especially since it would provide Pakistan and possibly China important technical exposure to the U.S.'s most advanced gunship.
I know in the history of Pakistani and U.S. arms dealings are patchy and unreliable, but with all these spares and training, the PAA would able to keep these gunships operational for 15+ years even if the U.S. implemented sanctions on Pakistan immediately after the purchase. A combination of the AH-1Z, the Z-10 and the Mi-35 compliment different roles.

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## S.U.R.B.

Things that are missing from the list are.


*AN/APG-78 Longbow Fire Control Radar & APKWS missiles (an improved hydra which can work as the poor man's hellfire...works great against any of the light armored targets.)*


*



*

*



*


*



*

*



*


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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Realistically speaking .. We should go for Vipers aswell as upgraded Z-10s (Gives us a lot of flexibility - options for upgradation etc) !
> 
> Screw the MI-35s.... T-129 is a dead deal.


Mi-35 is a totally different machine for a completely different intended role. Frankly, nothing comes close to Mi-35 for that particular role. There ability to carry troops in and out of battle field and provide them with air support that competes with that of any other attack helicopter. Comparing fire power the Mi-35 are as good as any other platform and the ability to carry troops is a plus. These if inducted will be the work horse of SGS airborne troops.


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## abbasalai

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1429136480732027


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## Ray_of_Hope

IF true then 15 Ah1Z + 20-30 Mi35 + Possibly 50 Z10 would be a brilliant collection of choppers serving different roles from COIN to tank busting missions.

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> I hardly doubt that cobras will be upgraded I think they will be retired


Zarvan
Yar eventually they will, but between that and now(and frankly they will go 0on for another 3-5 yrs), do we use hellfire on them or not, this is the question that I asked
Araz

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## cabatli_53

Imran Khan said:


> *Defense Security Cooperation Agency *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ASHINGTON, Apr 6, 2015 – The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of *15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. *Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $952 million.
> 
> This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia.
> 
> This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia.
> 
> This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces.
> 
> The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
> 
> The principal contractors will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, Texas; General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts; The Boeing Company in Huntsville, Alabama; and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland. There are no known offset agreements proposed in conjunction with this potential sale.
> 
> Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program.
> 
> There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
> 
> This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
> 
> All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.
> 
> -30-
> 
> 
> its great official sir jee
> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> 
> 
> here is PDF file
> http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/pakistan_15-05.pdf




OMG, If DSCA is revealed, It means Bell Textron took permission for export. After this period, It is about Pakistani selection among Atak, AH-1Z. That's the actual reason USA moaning regarding exportation of T129 Atak engines to Pakistan... AH-1Z is an increadible helicopter that rare copters can cope with. Its 3rd generation thermals along with three barrel 20mm cannon will be more than enough to send terrorists into stoneage...

Important points are; DSCA paper is about* taking permission from congress for a likely export*. If Bell needs to do it, It means *There is a serious concern from Pakistani side to order an attack copter (One of Atak, AH-1Z, Apache, Z-10)* and Bell is seriously interested in exporting own copters so* completed bureaucratic procedures quickly.*

*DSCA paper doesn't mean Pakistan choosed AH-1Z.* It just reflects an ongoing progress to acquire a certain attack copter in following months/years. The price and amount of copters to be issued on DSCA papers doesn't reflect the truths. The papers aims an avarage calculation of money for an aproximately requested copter+ missile. When serious negotiations are commenced on signiture phase, The price can be rapidly decreased with bargains in accordance with costumer requests. That's How USA institutes work...

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## Manticore

India has offered a follow-on order of 39 AH-64D Apache helicopters in addition to the 22 now being negotiated, a Defence Ministry official said. The sides have been wrangling over the price of the gunships, however, with the initial deal having been estimated to be worth* $1.4 billion.*
indian March 31 deadline
India offers to buy more U.S. helicopters, hopes to drive down costs

what was included in the apache/hellfire deal ? Want to find out unit costs of viper vs apache 
@sancho

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## airmarshal

Comparing US equipment with Chinese is quite foolish. 

Pakistani policy makers know more than us the risks in buying US weapons but they still prefer it. That says a lot.

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## cabatli_53

BTW, I don't suppose Pakistan is going to order attack helicopters from multiple sources because Turkey/Pakistan like countries don't have such luxury to waste own resources to order different kind of attack helicopters from various countries which costs too much for maintenance, training and logistics. 

USA advantages: Having a family of Cobra series in Pakistani inventory would decrease training and maintenance costs.
Chinese advantages: Gifted 3 attack copters.
Turkish advantages: Offering gift + ToT

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## hunter_hunted

shaheenmissile said:


> And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
> Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
> We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.



We have drone for that kind of blowing. "Sasta aur tikau" is our national motto


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## cabatli_53

airmarshal said:


> Comparing US equipment with Chinese is quite foolish.
> 
> Pakistani policy makers know more than us the risks in buying US weapons but they still prefer it. That says a lot.




Bro, USA aviation industry always offers the best of the World but The worst thing is that You can't even unbolting some product without USA permission.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

SecularNationalist said:


> It,s 12:15 pm in india they are already awaken probably  May be they are too busy buying some burnol


Once they wake up after the shock it can be any time not when the actually wake up in the morning


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## SipahSalar

cabatli_53 said:


> Turkish advantages: Offering gift + ToT


There are only rumors of ToT, we don't know if we have actually been offered ToT.


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## Goenitz

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan will buy three types
> 
> MI-35 deal sign
> cobra approved
> z-10 under trail we will decide


that would be hell of logistic (chinese, russian and US).... more men will be required to maintain difft helis plus too much strain on dealing different spare parts from different countries...burden on integrating communication system from same control tower and many more...


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## Rajput_Pakistani

AWACS locate Enemy Armored thrust
Low flying Fighter armed with H.A.R.M attack armored column and take out SAM shield
Fighters in CAP mode providing air cover from any retaliation from air
In second wave, Zulus coming in lead, while Z10 supporting to unleash awesome fire power on enemy tanks and vehicles
Severely hurt and downgraded enemy slowly close in to meet hail of rockets, armed with anti personal and armored munition fired form battery of MBRLs.
With 25% remaining strength enemy is engaged by MBTs to finish them off.


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## Goenitz

shaheenmissile said:


> And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
> Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
> We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.


one hellfire can kill one indian tank... plus heli can scoot.. using TOWs heli has to stay and control the missile for a kill



قناص said:


> Ah-6 is no way comparative to Mi-35 it's Armour,it's massive firepower and above all it's 1600kw engines,it is in category of MH-60 even better then that.


its bulky, maintenance nightmare and too much fuel consuming... read for general overview of russian machines..
Boeing CH-47F Chinook vs Mi-26TZ, what good for India?


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## Imran Khan

Goenitz said:


> that would be hell of logistic (chinese, russian and US).... more men will be required to maintain difft helis plus too much strain on dealing different spare parts from different countries...burden on integrating communication system from same control tower and many more...


but we will be sanctions free not like P3-C case of 90s boss



cabatli_53 said:


> OMG, If DSCA is revealed, It means Bell Textron took permission for export. After this period, It is about Pakistani selection among Atak, AH-1Z. That's the actual reason USA moaning regarding exportation of T129 Atak engines to Pakistan... AH-1Z is an increadible helicopter that rare copters can cope with. Its 3rd generation thermals along with three barrel 20mm cannon will be more than enough to send terrorists into stoneage...
> 
> Important points are; DSCA paper is about* taking permission from congress for a likely export*. If Bell needs to do it, It means *There is a serious concern from Pakistani side to order an attack copter (One of Atak, AH-1Z, Apache, Z-10)* and Bell is seriously interested in exporting own copters so* completed bureaucratic procedures quickly.*
> 
> *DSCA paper doesn't mean Pakistan choosed AH-1Z.* It just reflects an ongoing progress to acquire a certain attack copter in following months/years. The price and amount of copters to be issued on DSCA papers doesn't reflect the truths. The papers aims an avarage calculation of money for an aproximately requested copter+ missile. When serious negotiations are commenced on signiture phase, The price can be rapidly decreased with bargains in accordance with costumer requests. That's How USA institutes work...


please don't break our dreams 



princeiftikharmirza said:


> Yaar Imran saray freak out ho rahay hain en ko sumjhao bhai Yeh Imdad main mil jayen gay  free free free  ... And Z-10 is not going any where neither ATAK we will see it soon we will gonna over whelmed with systems availability .
> 
> 1Z will be bought off the shelf where as ATAK will be with full TOT and then Z-10 will be progressed into an Apache like gunship in few years. So all the systems seems to be complementing each other ...
> Kisi ki maiyya marnay wali hai yeh khaber parh ker  ROFL


it will make pakistan helicopters ki hera mandi

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> but we will be sanctions free not like P3-C case of 90s boss
> 
> 
> please don't break our dreams
> 
> 
> it will make pakistan helicopters ki hera mandi


biwiyan not GFs


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## Goenitz

Imran Khan said:


> but we will be sanctions free not like P3-C case of 90s boss


may be thats why accessories are being procured in huge numbers  ...but US machines are maintenance 'free' .. that gives us 20 years.. as per admin. Pak is not paying for it but some 'friends'. so its like a gift not choice... may be these are for any indian surprise in case our army is involved somehwere else..


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## fanna4paf2

this is funny think when no one option we have then america refuse when we get options they are ready to give us. what they hell of this please try to understand there policy they just take benefit. this approvel done after when we are trying z-10


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## Path-Finder

I remember Years ago Turkey began Looking at Russian Helis as the Yanks were being arses about supplying Cobra's to them and the Tactic worked Yanks Sam delivered few cobras to keep it Sweet this was before T129 was Born. Glad to see Pakistan doing something like it to keep em on their toes.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

We must look at the latest acquisitions of Pakistan in light to the ending of the sanctions. So one can assume that more stuff might be offered. As far as the Cobra's or the new Zulu is concerned USA had offered these in the early 2000's but they were not available till 2015. Make shift arrangements were being made these included supplying surplus F-16's and Cobra's along with financing the transport helicopters from Russia. A-10's were also offered which were refused by Pakistan. Pakistan is looking at many other deals with USA so it should not be out of the blue that some other toys end up in Pakistan over the next couple of years.


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## New World

@Horus @Imran Khan @ACE OF THE AIR @SecularNationalist @Stealth @Farah Sohail 
US never reject pak's request for zulu, zulu was banned for export untill the end of 2014. usa repeatedly say to pak that wait for 2015 when zulu will be available for export.

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## airmarshal

It looks like Pakistan is looking for attack helis from different sources. China, Russia, possibly Turkey and now this - USA.


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## military lover

ey offered 70+ old F16 but PAF refused to buy.....but PAF place 2 orders for more 13+ f16s blk 52..


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## airmarshal

Missing Indian members. They must tell us how bad AH-1Z is. what a bad choice it is and where will Pakistan get funds to buy these modern helis. Also, may be US is giving it for free.

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## Stephen Cohen

Looks like Mi 35 purchase has been cancelled


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## Muhammad Omar

Stephen Cohen said:


> Looks like Mi 35 purchase has been cancelled



Nope it's not cancelled 20 will come Confirm.... Mi-35 is for Special forces not for Pakistan Army Aviation for which we need 50 Heli (Cobra to replace)


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## Stephen Cohen

airmarshal said:


> Missing Indian members. They must tell us how bad AH-1Z is. what a bad choice it is and where will Pakistan get funds to buy these modern helis. Also, may be US is giving it for free.



Why should we worry ; it is* only 15 helicopters *


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## AliWaqar

What are we doing *Again usa oh mery bhai turky Russia aur china bohat hain ap un k sath jointly mil k har chez bana lo na,, hum usa py yaqeen nai kar sakty agar yeah koi chez daity b hain tu pak army ko chahiye k wo china ko bej dain and make a good copy of that*

*Burq missile aur hellfire missile main any similarity hai kya ? 

burq missile made in china ha ya pakistan??*


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## NKVD

airmarshal said:


> Missing Indian members. They must tell us how bad AH-1Z is. what a bad choice it is and where will Pakistan get funds to buy these modern helis. Also, may be US is giving it for free.


We Indians Don't care what more Impact it can do when we are Buying almost 39 AH-64D Block III' and hundreds of LCH in coming years

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## kaku1

NKVD said:


> We Indians Don't care what more Impact it can do when we are Buying almost 39 AH-64D Block III' and hundreds of LCH in coming years


Actually army inducting LCH for Armored brigade, not to fly alone.

But I still want MMR on LCH. Thats a major drawback.


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## kaonalpha

So basically were happy about something which we are going to get after 2 years.
Best thing we can do is start up z10 plant along with manufacturing wz 16 engine I one year.


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## AliWaqar

NKVD said:


> We Indians Don't care what more Impact it can do when we are Buying almost 39 AH-64D Block III' and hundreds of LCH in coming years


*U indians every time copy the pakistanis make ur own decision if pakistan buy subs indian also buy subs hehhehehe we are so afraid of u plz go to hell *



kaonalpha said:


> So basically were happy about something which we are going to get after 2 years.
> Best thing we can do is start up z10 plant along with manufacturing wz 16 engine I one year.[/QU
> 
> Agreed 100 z10 are enough

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## kaku1

AliWaqar said:


> *U indians every time copy the pakistanis make ur own decision if pakistan buy subs indian also buy subs hehhehehe we are so afraid of u plz go to hell *


Seems like you are new, so I dont troll you. 

Learn bro, learn.


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## AliWaqar

kaku1 said:


> Seems like you are new, so I dont troll you.
> 
> Learn bro, learn.


*yeah i am new but i knew only this indian are the most loser nation in the world*

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## kaku1

AliWaqar said:


> *yeah i am new but i knew only this indian are the most loser nation in the world*


Okey. How so?


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## NKVD

kaku1 said:


> But I still want MMR on LCH. Thats a major drawback.


Maybe one area it Lacks but that can be corrected in future Variants

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## shaheenmissile

cabatli_53 said:


> BTW, I don't suppose Pakistan is going to order attack helicopters from multiple sources because Turkey/Pakistan like countries don't have such luxury to waste own resources to order different kind of attack helicopters from various countries which costs too much for maintenance, training and logistics.
> 
> USA advantages: Having a family of Cobra series in Pakistani inventory would decrease training and maintenance costs.
> Chinese advantages: Gifted 3 attack copters.
> Turkish advantages: Offering gift + ToT


The Biggest problem with any USA weapon is Sanctions which they keep imposing on us .
Chinese and Russian weapons wont have that threat and Apart from Engine the Turkish heli wont have that threat either.


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## AliWaqar

bcz i work with indians thats y i know them

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## kaku1

AliWaqar said:


> bcz i work with indians thats y i know them



So, did they same think about you?


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## WAJsal

PHOTO: PAKISTANTODAY

*The US State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to purchase US-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment valued at almost $1 billion, aimed at fighting insurgent’s in the country.*

US defence companies are currently involved in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan which is further complicated by the need to avoid upsetting India and its even larger arms’ import market.

Read: ‘Pakistan trying to sell small arms to S Arabia’

The Pentagon on Monday said that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc alongside 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp and a host of other communications and training equipment with valued at a total of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which approves every sale.

Read: These are the countries exporting weapons to Pakistan and India

The deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees US military exports.

Read: US gives ‘leftover’ arms to Pakistan

The United States, in January of this year handed over serviceable weapons, ammunition and other sophisticated military equipment to Pakistan that was being used by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) troops in Afghanistan.
US State Department approves Pakistan's request for arms worth $1b - The Express Tribune

Good , @Pomegranate , @Akheilos , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Zarvan , @Color_Less_Sky , @Menace2Society , @Green Arrow , @rockstar08 , @قناص @Jazzbot , @IrbiS .......

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## rockstar08

Wow , now that is some Imran khan turn from US ... oh i mean a U-turn ...
first they refused to sell those AH-1Z Viper and now they are willing to ... its interesting ...

@Horus @Irfan Baloch @Oscar @Jungibaaz @Jango @Bratva your thoughts ... ?

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## kaonalpha

Yeah I think the others beat you to it before you posted this thread.


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## Kabira

Free? In that case I am happy!


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## root

Helicopters looks good.Quality stuff.These helicopters will surely help Pakistan fight against terror.


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## Abingdonboy

Stealth said:


> Most powerful Army Aviation in the region from Middle east to Asia Pacific will use 5 attack helis and all for different purposes. U.S. and Russia are the only countries who are using 5X Gunship platforms rest of all are 3X like France and Britian... *In our region Pakistan will become 1st .... hellya!*


This is hardly something to brag about, this is more indicative of poor planning and limited budgets and this is just a maintenance and logistical headache for the PAA in the long term. Massive armies like the US and Russia actually only operate 1 or 2 types of attack helo NOT five.

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## DANGER-ZONE

WAJsal said:


> PHOTO: PAKISTANTODAY
> 
> *The US State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to purchase US-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment valued at almost $1 billion, aimed at fighting insurgent’s in the country.*
> 
> US defence companies are currently involved in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan which is further complicated by the need to avoid upsetting India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> Read: ‘Pakistan trying to sell small arms to S Arabia’
> 
> The Pentagon on Monday said that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc alongside 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp and a host of other communications and training equipment with valued at a total of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which approves every sale.
> 
> Read: These are the countries exporting weapons to Pakistan and India
> 
> The deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees US military exports.
> 
> Read: US gives ‘leftover’ arms to Pakistan
> 
> The United States, in January of this year handed over serviceable weapons, ammunition and other sophisticated military equipment to Pakistan that was being used by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) troops in Afghanistan.
> US State Department approves Pakistan's request for arms worth $1b - The Express Tribune
> 
> Good , @Pomegranate , @Akheilos , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Zarvan , @Color_Less_Sky , @Menace2Society , @Green Arrow , @rockstar08 , @قناص @Jazzbot , @IrbiS .......



*Booby trap ....*


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## Donatello

Abingdonboy said:


> This is hardly something to brag about, this is more indicative of poor planning and limited budgets and this is just a maintenance and logistical headache for the PAA in the long term. Massive armies like the US and Russia actually only operate 1 or 2 types of attack helo NOT five.



When did Pakistan said it will be operating 5 attack helos?

Wait, as usual, nothing of substance.

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## Abingdonboy

Donatello said:


> When did Pakistan said it will be operating 5 attack helos?
> 
> Wait, as usual, nothing of substance.


I was directly quoting @Stealth who stated as much, I was not saying that number was accurate.


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## Basel

Salahadin said:


> By
> DOUG CAMERON
> April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET
> 
> View attachment 212609
> 
> 
> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.
> 
> U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.
> 
> Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.
> 
> Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com
> 
> State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ



1billion for 15 helicopters and 1000 hellfire missiles? This bird can hit prone to sanctions. Is it better then Mi-28NE, T-129, WZ-10? Which version of hellfire missiles is approved? Latest or older one?


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## VelocuR

Already discussed thousand times - AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.

What's this in this picture? AH-1Z helicopter?







*$1Billion = 15 A-1Z Helicopter *
$1Billion = 30 A-1Z Helicopter 
$1Billion = 45 A-1Z Helicopter 
$1Billion = 60 A-1Z Helicopter 
$1Billion = 75 A-1Z Helicopter 
$1Billion = 90 A-1Z Helicopter 
$1Billion = 105 A-1Z Helicopter 

6-7.5 billions dollars!


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## A2Z

Suddenly when Pakistan is ready to buy Russian helicopters and China trying its best to sell Pakistan Z-10, USA looks towards selling Pakistan AH-1Z. Looks like Russia-Pakistan relations are doing their magic.


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## VelocuR

Let's look at South Korea's decision






*On 21 September 2012,* the U.S. Congress was notified of the possible purchase of *36 AH-1Z Vipers by South Korea. The request included 84 engines (72 installed and 12 spares), 288 AGM-114K3 Hellfire missiles, 72 AIM-9M-8 Sidewinder missiles, integrated missiles launchers, targeting systems, and radar jammers. *

The order would be worth *$2.6 billion*. The Viper was competing against *the Boeing AH-64 Apache and theTAI/AgustaWestland T-129 for the order; a decision was expected by the end of 2012.*

*In April 2013,* South Korea announced they had selected the* AH-64E Apache. *


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## cabatli_53

VelocuR said:


> Let's look at South Korea's decision
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *On 21 September 2012,* the U.S. Congress was notified of the possible purchase of *36 AH-1Z Vipers by South Korea. The request included 84 engines (72 installed and 12 spares), 288 AGM-114K3 Hellfire missiles, 72 AIM-9M-8 Sidewinder missiles, integrated missiles launchers, targeting systems, and radar jammers. *
> 
> The order would be worth *$2.6 billion*. The Viper was competing against *the Boeing AH-64 Apache and theTAI/AgustaWestland T-129 for the order; a decision was expected by the end of 2012.*
> 
> *In April 2013,* South Korea announced they had selected the* AH-64E Apache. *



S. Korea had an assembly line and operator of Apache copters. This tender just served to decrease the price. I mean the result was clear during tender process.

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## SipahSalar

Abingdonboy said:


> This is hardly something to brag about, this is more indicative of poor planning and limited budgets and this is just a maintenance and logistical headache for the PAA in the long term. Massive armies like the US and Russia actually only operate 1 or 2 types of attack helo NOT five.


Who said we are operating 5 helos? It's just Cobras till now. Not much different between AH-1F and AH-1Z in regards to logistics.
The Mi-35 is for Anti-Narcotics Force. They have nothing to do with army aviation.
Z-10 is still undergoing trials.


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## Pomegranate

that's a great news for pakistan .................. Pakistan is busy these days purchasing some good weapons ..

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## Mustang06

What about T-129?...
Pakistan has been on a shopping spree for the last few weeks!
Congrats if its true!..You can use all the help against Talibans!

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## Muhammad Omar

Mustang06 said:


> What about T-129?...
> Pakistan has been on a shopping spree for the last few weeks!
> Congrats if its true!..You can use all the help against Talibans!




15 Zulu For Pakistan Army Aviation and 20 Mi-35 For Anti Narcotic Force are confirmed

3 Wz-10 are under Trials 

No News about T-129 or Mi-28

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## Mustang06

Muhammad Omar said:


> 15 Zulu For Pakistan Army Aviation and 20 Mi-35 For Anti Narcotic Force are confirmed
> 
> 3 Wz-10 are under Trials
> 
> No News about T-129 or Mi-28


So if Z-10 ticks all the boxes for PA, can we expect Z-10 instead of ATAK?


----------



## Bratva

cabatli_53 said:


> BTW, I don't suppose Pakistan is going to order attack helicopters from multiple sources because Turkey/Pakistan like countries don't have such luxury to waste own resources to order different kind of attack helicopters from various countries which costs too much for maintenance, training and logistics.
> 
> USA advantages: Having a family of Cobra series in Pakistani inventory would decrease training and maintenance costs.
> Chinese advantages: Gifted 3 attack copters.
> Turkish advantages: Offering gift + ToT



Z-10 training and maintenance would allow Pakistan to handle T-129 with ease since they are compareable


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## Muhammad Omar

Mustang06 said:


> So if Z-10 ticks all the boxes for PA, can we expect Z-10 instead of ATAK?



The only thing that we are not getting ATAK is cause of Americans Engine...

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## SipahSalar

Bratva said:


> Z-10 training and maintenance would allow Pakistan to handle T-129 with ease since they are compareable


huh?


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## Syed Hussain

Well, even after deducting the cost of spares, sub systems and missiles, still the per piece cost is around 40+ million. We could have got Apache's E variant in this budget.
First deal for Mi-35, then 3 units of WZ-10's for 'testing' and now of a sudden this deal, though keeping a mix of Chinese and Russian with US ones can be beneficial in many terms if the expenses could be overcome. Sensors and engines both are sophisticated stuff and specially the hingeless/bearingless rotor system which is highly reliable and efficient and has lowest maintenance requirement comparing to conventional rotor systems.
The only wish is that if we had the capacity to 'copy' like Chinese do


----------



## salarsikander

Syed Hussain said:


> Well, even after deducting the cost of spares, sub systems and missiles, still the per piece cost is around 40+ million. We could have got Apache's E variant in this budget.
> First deal for Mi-35, then 3 units of WZ-10's for 'testing' and now of a sudden this deal, though keeping a mix of Chinese and Russian with US ones can be beneficial in many terms if the expenses could be overcome. Sensors and engines both are sophisticated stuff and specially the hingeless/bearingless rotor system which is highly reliable and efficient and has lowest maintenance requirement comparing to conventional rotor systems.
> The only wish is that if we had the capacity to 'copy' like Chinese do
> View attachment 212826


Hi, Would love to know how you calculated the number 40mn ? what accounting method was used ?


----------



## datalibdaz

why there are no sidewinders on the list ? Can any one tell me whether Aim 9X has been tested on these vipers?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

salarsikander said:


> Hi, Would love to know how you calculated the number 40mn ? what accounting method was used ?


Well could be the $31mil price tag in wikipedia wrong?


----------



## Bratva

SipahSalar said:


> huh?



What is difference b/w Z-10 and T-129 training and operating wise ?

Just as Zulu would be absorbed easily due to AH-1 providing base. Similarly Z-10 is providing base


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## ACE OF THE AIR

datalibdaz said:


> why there are no sidewinders on the list ?Any one can tell me whether Aim 9X has been tested on these vipers?


It could be that Pakistan has already purchased a large number of these recently.


----------



## SipahSalar

Bratva said:


> What is difference b/w Z-10 and T-129 ?


Different manufacturers, different avionics, different weapons, different counter-measures.
Just because they fill the same role, you assumed operating one will help you learn about the other?
If you were to say operating AH-1 will help you operate AH-64, i could believe you.


----------



## Bratva

SipahSalar said:


> Different manufacturers, different avionics, different weapons, different counter-measures.
> Just because they fill the same role, you assumed operating one will help you learn about the other?
> If you were to say operating AH-1 will help you operate AH-64, i could believe you.



Different avionics how. Sensors are similar , HMD, countermeasures, same two person layout. ?

Different weapons doesn't matter. both provide similar operating philosophy which wouldn't be hard to excel.

Compare F-16 pilots converting on to JF-17 scenario without any two seaters.


----------



## Hurter

Pomegranate said:


> that's a great news for pakistan .................. Pakistan is busy these days purchasing some good weapons ..



And it's happening so rapidly.. Really good to see.


----------



## Path-Finder

VelocuR said:


> Let's look at South Korea's decision
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *On 21 September 2012,* the U.S. Congress was notified of the possible purchase of *36 AH-1Z Vipers by South Korea. The request included 84 engines (72 installed and 12 spares), 288 AGM-114K3 Hellfire missiles, 72 AIM-9M-8 Sidewinder missiles, integrated missiles launchers, targeting systems, and radar jammers. *
> 
> The order would be worth *$2.6 billion*. The Viper was competing against *the Boeing AH-64 Apache and theTAI/AgustaWestland T-129 for the order; a decision was expected by the end of 2012.*
> 
> *In April 2013,* South Korea announced they had selected the* AH-64E Apache. *



I wonder why they went for Apache. Could It be due to availability at the time? AH-1Z is a great Machine as a alternative to the Apache!


----------



## My-Analogous

Salahadin said:


> By
> DOUG CAMERON
> April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET
> 
> View attachment 212609
> 
> 
> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.
> 
> U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.
> 
> Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.
> 
> Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com
> 
> State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ



When we need it most they didn't give us and now we don't required them and they are selling us. We don't need these and yes for Hellfire missiles


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## Manticore

[


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

SipahSalar said:


> Different manufacturers, different avionics, different weapons, different counter-measures.
> Just because they fill the same role, you assumed operating one will help you learn about the other?
> If you were to say operating AH-1 will help you operate AH-64, i could believe you.



Operating Aeroplanes is not the same as operating cars.

Even if the Aeroplane has the same weight and capability but is manufactured by two different companies its flying characteristics would be very different. Its maintenance and logistics and the technical aspects would require it to be a separate entity in the organisation.

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## cabatli_53

As an active operator country of AH-1W Cobras, Turkish Army demands an attack helicopter which is going to be comparable with W+ copter and It is T129 Atak borned based on Mangusta. Before went to T129 Atak development, It was AH-1Z King Cobra choosed to order 145 but Cause of USA difficult policies not to give permission to integrate Turkish mission computer and weapon systems, The tender cancelled. AH-1Z is a great machine without any doubt. If Turkish Army satisfied the capabilities of W Cobra, Z will be more than enough to be used all type of war environments.

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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> What is difference b/w Z-10 and T-129 training and operating wise ?
> 
> Just as Zulu would be absorbed easily due to AH-1 providing base. Similarly Z-10 is providing base



Z-10 and T-129 both, won't be procured together......only one of them.



cabatli_53 said:


> As an active operator country of AH-1W Cobras, Turkish Army demands an attack helicopter which is going to be comparable with W+ copter and It is T129 Atak borned based on Mangusta. Before went to T129 Atak development, It was AH-1Z King Cobra choosed to order 145 but Cause of USA difficult policies not to give permission to integrate Turkish mission computer and weapon systems, The tender cancelled. AH-1Z is a great machine without any doubt. If Turkish Army satisfied the capabilities of W Cobra, Z will be more than enough to be used all type of war environments.



Agreed, but since Turkey has it's own full T-129 ATAK program underway, why would it want local systems integration in the AH-1Zs? Just get them as they come.


----------



## salarsikander

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Well could be the $31mil price tag in wikipedia wrong?


Hi, 
possibly, beacuse the price of what ? a unit cost or a complete life cycle cost and then wikipedias own credibility where you can alter the information. 
so i wouldn't place my bets on this particular source


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> possibly, beacuse the price of what ? a unit cost or a complete life cycle cost and then wikipedias own credibility where you can alter the information.
> so i wouldn't place my bets on this particular source


Well this is what I found From Wiki
*Unit cost* 
US$27 million[1] CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft - 12/20/2010 - Flight Global
US$31 million (new built)[2] http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf
Though the second link is not opening.

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## SQ8

The Zulu is a very different class of machine in terms of sophisticaton from the Z-10. The Zulu carries just as much payload as the Apache and unlike the Apache can carry the Aim-9 missile for longer ranged air to air engagement. In other words, if an Apache and A Zulu Cobra were to go head to head.. the Zulu Cobra would kill the Apache before it even got close enough to pose a threat. In addition, that Aim-9 capabiliy also gives the Zulu Cobra a better capability in engaging aircraft attacking it.

The Hellfires Rs are the real surprise to me

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## Muhammad Omar

So we getting Zulu and Z-10 together... ?


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## VelocuR

Hopefully India lobbies will pressure USA to cancel AH-1Z Vipers deal with Pakistan, we don't need just few 15 peanuts.


----------



## datalibdaz

Oscar said:


> The Zulu is a very different class of machine in terms of sophisticaton from the Z-10. The Zulu carries just as much payload as the Apache and unlike the Apache can carry the Aim-9 missile for longer ranged air to air engagement. In other words, if an Apache and A Zulu Cobra were to go head to head.. the Zulu Cobra would kill the Apache before it even got close enough to pose a threat. In addition, that Aim-9 capabiliy also gives the Zulu Cobra a better capability in engaging aircraft attacking it.
> 
> The Hellfires Rs are the real surprise to me


Any chance of aim 9x with zulus ?


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Oscar said:


> The Zulu is a very different class of machine in terms of sophisticaton from the Z-10. The Zulu carries just as much payload as the Apache and unlike the Apache can carry the Aim-9 missile for longer ranged air to air engagement. In other words, if an Apache and A Zulu Cobra were to go head to head.. the Zulu Cobra would kill the Apache before it even got close enough to pose a threat. In addition, that Aim-9 capabiliy also gives the Zulu Cobra a better capability in engaging aircraft attacking it.
> 
> The Hellfires Rs are the real surprise to me


Pls dont fuel oil to the fire

Can these Aim-9 (short range) be replaced by some sort of BWR missile.


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## Manticore

A 1000 hellfires* II *is no joke -- these are one of the primary weapons of even apache


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## TOPGUN

Great news we are moving along ....


----------



## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> A 1000 hellfires* II *is no joke -- these are one of the primary weapons of even apache


I hope the number increases in upcoming years


----------



## Donatello

Manticore said:


> A 1000 hellfires* II *is no joke -- these are one of the primary weapons of even apache



A lot of them would be used up in hunting talibunnies.....


----------



## NKVD

Oscar said:


> The Zulu is a very different class of machine in terms of sophisticaton from the Z-10. The Zulu carries just as much payload as the Apache and unlike the Apache can carry the Aim-9 missile for longer ranged air to air engagement. In other words, if an Apache and A Zulu Cobra were to go head to head.. the Zulu Cobra would kill the Apache before it even got close enough to pose a threat. In addition, that Aim-9 capabiliy also gives the Zulu Cobra a better capability in engaging aircraft attacking it.
> 
> The Hellfires Rs are the real surprise to me


Apache originally started as the _Model 77_ developed by Hughes Helicopters for the United States Army's Advanced Attack Helicopter program to replace the AH-1 Cobra.

@gambit can throw more Light 



Oscar said:


> that Aim-9 capabiliy also gives the Zulu Cobra a better capability in engaging aircraft attacking it.


,
Starting in the 1980s, the Stinger and AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and the AGM-122 Sidearm anti-radiation missile were evaluated for use upon the AH-64.The Stinger was initially selected; the U.S. Army was also considering the Starstreak air-to-air missile


----------



## SipahSalar

cabatli_53 said:


> As an active operator country of AH-1W Cobras, Turkish Army demands an attack helicopter which is going to be comparable with W+ copter and It is T129 Atak borned based on Mangusta. Before went to T129 Atak development, It was AH-1Z King Cobra choosed to order 145 but Cause of USA difficult policies not to give permission to integrate Turkish mission computer and weapon systems, The tender cancelled. AH-1Z is a great machine without any doubt. If Turkish Army satisfied the capabilities of W Cobra, Z will be more than enough to be used all type of war environments.


Indeed. But AH-1W still remain the primary combat chopper for Turkey right? Are there any plans on a version of T-129 with a larger takeoff weight?


Oscar said:


> if an Apache and A Zulu Cobra were to go head to head..


This is what armchair generals don't understand, Attack Choppers rarely go up against enemy Attack Choppers, almost never. If anything, their effectiveness should be measured by how good they are at maneuvering and taking out tanks from distance.


ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can these Aim-9 (short range) be replaced by some sort of BWR missile.


You can only replace them with a BVR missile if you were to fit a Fighter planes radar in the Cobra. Maybe they can use AWACs for target acquisition, but i have never heard of it even at experimental level.

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## Mutakalim

قناص said:


> Yes only when 90% of terrorists are gone and we are going to buy AH-10,we should but but not at cost of Ah-10(z-10).


Apart from Talibs we have other friends too.

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## Manticore

Donatello said:


> A lot of them would be used up in hunting talibunnies.....


perhaps might be used on high value targets / greater casualty targets -- killing a couple of talibs on one hellfire is very costly


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> The Zulu is a very different class of machine in terms of sophisticaton from the Z-10. The Zulu carries just as much payload as the Apache and unlike the Apache can carry the Aim-9 missile for longer ranged air to air engagement. In other words, if an Apache and A Zulu Cobra were to go head to head.. the Zulu Cobra would kill the Apache before it even got close enough to pose a threat. In addition, that Aim-9 capabiliy also gives the Zulu Cobra a better capability in engaging aircraft attacking it.
> 
> The Hellfires Rs are the real surprise to me



You think congress will create any trouble?

@gambit @SvenSvensonov


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## inaveed72

I am too much confused now... Mi35, Mi-28, WZ-10, T-129 And AH-1z Viper. Which one is best for Pakistan and what we have decided to buy??


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## Imran Khan

well why i am smelling only AH-1Z will be future of Pakistan . best thing here is hellfire missile man nothing can beat it .its battle proven . z-10s are here for test and real war experience only .my two cents



Donatello said:


> You think congress will create any trouble?
> 
> @gambit @SvenSvensonov


no way they will never do anything as past they never stopped us


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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> well why i am smelling only AH-1Z will be future of Pakistan . best thing here is hellfire missile man nothing can beat it .its battle proven . z-10s are here for test and real war experience only .my two cents
> 
> 
> no way they will never do anything as past they never stopped us



Actually, they are still blocking the transfer of the 5 potential OHP frigates..........because Attack helos can be put to use that USA wants (cleaning up the terrorists).....but not the same with ships, f-16s or P3Cs

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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Actually, they are still blocking the transfer of the 5 potential OHP frigates..........because Attack helos can be put to use that USA wants (cleaning up the terrorists).....but not the same with ships, f-16s or P3Cs


sir jee i think they will never stopped it as its direct linked to WOT


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## Kabira

Does anyone know which helicopter they used at the end of movie Furious 7? Because it looked freeking awsome.


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## A.M.

This is good news imo. We should dangle the Chinese and the Russians a little bit to see if USA will sweeten the pot or at least provide written assurance that we won't have any issues with getting the necessary parts afterwards.


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## VelocuR

Path-Finder said:


> I wonder why they went for Apache. Could It be due to availability at the time? AH-1Z is a great Machine as a alternative to the Apache!



Yeah South Korea know better than Pakistan, they have more high experiences and wise intellectual people.

They made right decision. Hence, SK and PK policy are not same levels.


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## Stephen Cohen

@Oscar @Manticore @Donatello @Imran Khan 

The Hellfire Missiles approved are NOT Anti Tank missiles

They are AGM 114 R Hellfire 2


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## Death Adder

save_ghenda said:


> Does anyone know which helicopter they used at the end of movie Furious 7? Because it looked freeking awsome.



I don't know thr name buy it look likes the same Helo that was used in Abbottabad.


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## Stephen Cohen

Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles have utility against terrorists NOT against TANKS


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## Path-Finder

VelocuR said:


> Yeah South Korea know better than Pakistan, they have more high experiences and wise intellectual people.
> 
> They made right decision. Hence, SK and PK policy are not same levels.



I am certain PA made a excellent decision, Apache was offered in the early day of WoT/Musharraf (I believe they did or I am wrong?) but it was not selected. The AH-1Z has same powerplant, Weapons Package similar defensive countermeasures as Apache yet its Cheaper and it is meant for naval use thus it has few extra cards up it's sleeve. Most Navy equipment is superior to its non Naval versions.

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## Imran Khan

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Oscar @Manticore @Donatello @Imran Khan
> 
> The Hellfire Missiles approved are NOT Anti Tank missiles
> 
> They are AGM 114 R Hellfire 2


pakistan requested for AGM-114 R hellfire . that is need of time . or you think we should buy missiles which we keep in the storage for possible war with India and ignore the war which we are fighting today ?














The* Government of Pakistan has requested *a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.


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## Path-Finder

Stephen Cohen said:


> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles have utility against terrorists NOT against TANKS



I am sure you have enough sense that Hellfire-II is not meant for Taliban In Reality!!!


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## Donatello

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Oscar @Manticore @Donatello @Imran Khan
> 
> The Hellfire Missiles approved are NOT Anti Tank missiles
> 
> They are AGM 114 R Hellfire 2



"The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout. The Army is currently only purchasing this variant. "

From:-
AGM-114 Hellfire Missile | Variants, AGM-114R, Budget/Costs, Specs



More information here:
AGM-114 Hellfire II Missile - Army Technology

In short
Hellfire Romeo is a one stop missile for all types of ground targets, anti-armor or anti-talbunnies. US army will only purchase and consolidate this version in their fleet.

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## Stephen Cohen

Path-Finder said:


> I am sure you have enough sense that Hellfire-II is not meant for Taliban In Reality!!!



You can check the specifications of Helfire R 2 

AGM-114R Hellfire II

Target: Bunkers, light vehicles, urban (soft) targets and caves
Range: 8,000 m (8,749 yd)
Guidance:
Semi-active laser homing

*Warhead: Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) (combine blast fragmentation and fragment dispersion).*
Weight: 50 kg (110 lb)
Speed : Mach 1.3


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## Manticore

Stephen Cohen said:


> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles have utility against terrorists NOT against TANKS


you mean the K/L versions are antitank only which have tandem shaped charge high explosive anti-tank (HEAT)?


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## Imran Khan

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Oscar @Manticore @Donatello @Imran Khan
> 
> The Hellfire Missiles approved are NOT Anti Tank missiles
> 
> They are AGM 114 R Hellfire 2





Stephen Cohen said:


> You can check the specifications of Helfire R 2
> 
> AGM-114R Hellfire II
> 
> Target: Bunkers, light vehicles, urban (soft) targets and caves
> Range: 8,000 m (8,749 yd)
> Guidance:
> Semi-active laser homing
> 
> *Warhead: Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) (combine blast fragmentation and fragment dispersion).*
> Weight: 50 kg (110 lb)
> Speed : Mach 1.3


 dont embarrass yourself with wiki info its really not good to post


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## ACE OF THE AIR

SipahSalar said:


> You can only replace them with a BVR missile if you were to fit a Fighter planes radar in the Cobra. Maybe they can use AWACs for target acquisition, but i have never heard of it even at experimental level.



IF it is possible to use AWAC's with Helicopters no matter how unpractical, they might have looked at it through some sort of advanced war simulations. May be one day we can find out if it has been done.


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## Stephen Cohen

Hellfire R 2 carries a 

*Warhead: Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) (combine blast fragmentation and fragment dispersion).*
*This warhead cannot destroy TANKS *


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## VelocuR

Path-Finder said:


> I am certain PA made a excellent decision, Apache was offered in the early day of WoT/Musharraf (I believe they did or I am wrong?) but it was not selected. The AH-1Z has same powerplant, Weapons Package similar defensive countermeasures as Apache yet its Cheaper and it is meant for naval use thus it has few extra cards up it's sleeve. Most Navy equipment is superior to its non Naval versions.



Well, *15* AH-1Z Vipers are not enough, we are expected more than 100-200 latest helicopters to eliminate external or internal threats.

Let's try negotiate with US again to reduce prices to reasonable *$300 millions or less* from $1 billion dollars due to long waiting and many suffering from US double games.


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## Path-Finder

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hellfire R 2 carries a
> 
> *Warhead: Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) (combine blast fragmentation and fragment dispersion).*
> *This warhead cannot destroy TANKS *



Oh No. Hellfire-II cant be used against Armor 



VelocuR said:


> Well, *15* AH-1Z Vipers are not enough, we are expected more than 100-200 latest helicopters to eliminate external or internal threats.
> 
> Let's try negotiate with US again to reduce prices to reasonable *$300 millions or less* from $1 billion dollars due to long waiting and many suffering from US games.



Hopefully 15 will serve the purpose intended. With more maybe or not!


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## Stephen Cohen

Path-Finder said:


> Oh No. Hellfire-II cant be used against Armor



This PARTICULAR Variant R 2 is for soft vehicles like trucks and jeeps

The warhead is different in R 2 ; the warhead destroys the target not the missile


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## Imran Khan

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hellfire R 2 carries a
> 
> *Warhead: Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) (combine blast fragmentation and fragment dispersion).*
> *This warhead cannot destroy TANKS *


dont worry dear those whom buy it have more info then all of this forum together




Stephen Cohen said:


> This PARTICULAR Variant R 2 is for soft vehicles like trucks and jeeps
> 
> The warhead is different in R 2 ; the warhead destroys the target not the missile



*official lockheed martin* 
*ultipurpose HELLFIRE II ‘Romeo’ Strikes Target, Completes Proof-of-Principle Flight Tests*

ORLANDO, FL, 03/28/2011 --

The U.S. Army's Joint Attack Munition Systems (JAMS) Project Office and Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] successfully fired a multipurpose AGM 114R HELLFIRE II "Romeo" missile with a live warhead and penetrated a brick-over-block target in its sixth proof-of-principle (POP) test.

The flight test, at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., demonstrated the Romeo's enhanced software capability and superior performance in a military-operations-in-urban-terrain scenario. *The new Romeo's multipurpose warhead design enables the missile, with a designator spot laser, to seek out and defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets with outstanding success*. The initial fielding of the HELLFIRE II Romeo is scheduled for late 2012.

"The AGM-114R baseline design is now defined and allows us to go into system qualification," said U.S. Army Lt. Col. Mike Brown, HELLFIRE Systems product manager at JAMS. "The R model remains on cost and on schedule, and meets all performance objectives."

Engineers ground-launched the single HELLFIRE II Romeo missile in a lock-on-after-launch mode, simulating the missile being fired from a rotary-wing platform. The short-range (2.5 kilometer) high-speed impact shot penetrated the brick-over-block target and successfully detonated with the specified fuze delay.

This was the final POP test for this next-generation precision missile. The Romeo's advanced fuze technology and new warhead design performed flawlessly in test flights, proving reduced risk through system performance. Additionally, Lockheed Martin's Joint-Air-to-Ground Missile (JAGM) incorporates the same warhead technology and fuze design that is present in the HELLFIRE II Romeo.

*"We redesigned the warhead to combine the capabilities of our four previous HELLFIRE II variants into one single multipurpose missile," said Ken Musculus, director of Air-to-Ground Missile Systems at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. "Our POP tests conclusively proved that the HELLFIRE II Romeo meets all of its requirements, and will provide a valuable capability to the warfighter."*

New design features on the HELLFIRE II Romeo include a three-axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind them without having to maneuver the aircraft into position. The missile can be launched from high or low altitudes due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities, optimizing the missile's impact angle for enhanced lethality.

The HELLFIRE II Romeo integrates with all HELLFIRE II-compatible platforms, and can be launched autonomously or with remote designation. Rotary-wing platforms include the Apache, Kiowa Warrior, Cobra and Seahawk, as well as the Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter for Australia and the Tiger Hélicoptère d'Appui Destruction for France. The HELLFIRE has also been demonstrated on ground-based tripods, ground vehicles and boats.

With multi-mission and multi-target capability, HELLFIRE is the primary air-to-ground missile system for the U.S. Armed Forces and many allied nations. Lockheed Martin performs all work on behalf of the HELLFIRE Systems Limited Liability Company at its manufacturing facilities in Troy, Ala., and Ocala, Fla.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 132,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The Corporation's 2010 sales from continuing operations were $45.8 billion.
pr_missiles_MultipurposeHellfireIiRom · Lockheed Martin

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## Manticore

R= for all targets increased lethality




The SAL HELLFIRE II missile is guided by laser energy reflected off the target. It has three warhead variants: a dual warhead, shaped charge highexplosive anti-tank (HEAT) capability for armored targets (AGM-114K); a blast fragmentation warhead (BFWH) for urban, patrol boat and other “soft” targets (AGM-114M); and a metal augmented charge (MAC) warhead (AGM-114N) for urban structures, bunkers, radar sites, communications installations, and bridges. Beginning in 2012, a HELLFIRE multipurpose warhead variant (AGM-114R) will be available to the Warfighter that allows selection of warhead effects corresponding to a specific target type. The AGM-114R is capable of being launched from Army rotary-wing and UAS platforms and provides the pilot increased operational flexibility. The Longbow HELLFIRE (AGM-114L) is also a precision strike missile using millimeter wave (MMW) radar guidance instead of the HELLFIRE II’s semi-active laser. It is the principal antitank
system for the AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopter and uses the same anti-armor warhead as the HELLFIRE II. The MMW seeker provides beyond line-of-sight fire and forget capability, as well as the ability to operate in adverse weather and battlefield obscurants.

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## Path-Finder

Stephen Cohen said:


> This PARTICULAR Variant R 2 is for soft vehicles like trucks and jeeps
> 
> The warhead is different in R 2 ; the warhead destroys the target not the missile



I either believe you or @Donatello post above! 

Edit! More posts or yours


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## Stephen Cohen

*The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.*
*
SOURCE Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency*


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## Mughal-Prince

Muhammad Omar said:


> Nope it's not cancelled 20 will come Confirm.... Mi-35 is for Special forces not for Pakistan Army Aviation for which we need 50 Heli (Cobra to replace)



It's not 20 it's somewhere around +/- 35.


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## Manticore

Stephen Cohen said:


> *The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
> 
> SOURCE Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency*


They have to say this in every U.S sale. Even said it with the blk52/aim120 sale.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Guys,
For once let our Indian friends find some respite from the  that is burning after hearing the AH-1Z are heading for PAA. 

If they think that the Hellfire-II is not anti-armor let them remain in fools paradise. They are going to see what it is capable of once it is fired then they would start to believe. 

Till that time we should relax and enjoy.

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## Imran Khan

Stephen Cohen said:


> *The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
> 
> SOURCE Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency*


*aby oo dhakan this wrriten on every contract even 20bn$ 80 f-15 to ksa or 5bn contract to pakistan or even 12 gun boats contract each and every notification has this line go check . what a stupids we are wasting time with kids *

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## The SC

SipahSalar said:


> "Oh no, just 15. "
> It's obvious none of you know what a Zulu is.
> It is literally an Apache in every way and form except combat radius.
> The exact same systems are used in both helicopters.
> The only difference is that Apaches are used by the Army and Super Cobra's are used by Marine Corps.
> So yes, it won't be cheap.
> Besides, all of you are missing the 1000 hellfires.
> 1 hellfire = $100,000
> These hellfires can also be used on Burraq drones.


didn't miss it . post #128


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## Path-Finder

Sole Reason Hellfire was Made and it continues to be in Services because it DEFEATS ARMOUR Guaranteed!!


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## VelocuR

*South Korea requests AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles sale from US*

8 hours ago
April 7 2015

The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency has notified Congress of a potential foreign military sale (FMS) of AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles and associated equipment to the Republic of Korea.

*Under the estimated $81m sale, South Korea has requested for the supply of 400 AGM-114R1 Hellfire II semi-active laser missiles with containers, 100 ATM-114Q air training missiles, and 12 M36E8 Hellfire II captive air training missiles.

South Korea intends to use the Hellfire missiles to supplement its existing missile capability and current weapon inventory, while strengthening its homeland defence and to deter regional threats.*

The sale is expected to contribute to South Korea's force modernisation goals and enhance interoperability with the US forces.

"The sale is expected to contribute to South Korea's force modernisation goals and enhance interoperability with the US forces."

The transaction directly contributes to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the US by addressing the legitimate security and defence requirements of South Korea, which is one of the major political and economic powers in East Asia and the Western Pacific, and a key partner of the US in ensuring peace and stability in the region.

Lockheed Martin will serve as prime contractor of the FMS programme.

*The Hellfire II missile uses a semi-active laser homing guidance system and an integrated blast fragmentation sleeve warhead to engage targets that previously required multiple Hellfire variants.*

The AGM-114 Hellfire is a precision-strike, multi-purpose missile designed primarily to provide anti-armour capabilities for attack helicopters against a wide range of targets in the battlefield.

Designed for launch from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, the 100lb missile features semi-active laser seekers, a guidance computer and steering control, as well as propulsion systems, and can also be used by lock-on before or after launch for enhanced platform survivability.

South Korea requests AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles sale from US - Army Technology


----------



## Muhammad Omar

princeiftikharmirza said:


> It's not 20 it's somewhere around +/- 35.



Nope it's 20


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## HRK

VelocuR said:


> *South Korea requests AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles sale from US*
> 
> 8 hours ago
> April 7 2015
> 
> The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency has notified Congress of a potential foreign military sale (FMS) of AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles and associated equipment to the Republic of Korea.
> 
> *Under the estimated $81m sale, South Korea has requested for the supply of 400 AGM-114R1 Hellfire II semi-active laser missiles with containers, 100 ATM-114Q air training missiles, and 12 M36E8 Hellfire II captive air training missiles.
> 
> South Korea intends to use the Hellfire missiles to supplement its existing missile capability and current weapon inventory, while strengthening its homeland defence and to deter regional threats.*
> 
> The sale is expected to contribute to South Korea's force modernisation goals and enhance interoperability with the US forces.
> 
> "The sale is expected to contribute to South Korea's force modernisation goals and enhance interoperability with the US forces."
> 
> The transaction directly contributes to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the US by addressing the legitimate security and defence requirements of South Korea, which is one of the major political and economic powers in East Asia and the Western Pacific, and a key partner of the US in ensuring peace and stability in the region.
> 
> Lockheed Martin will serve as prime contractor of the FMS programme.
> 
> *The Hellfire II missile uses a semi-active laser homing guidance system and an integrated blast fragmentation sleeve warhead to engage targets that previously required multiple Hellfire variants.*
> 
> The AGM-114 Hellfire is a precision-strike, multi-purpose missile designed primarily to provide anti-armour capabilities for attack helicopters against a wide range of targets in the battlefield.
> 
> Designed for launch from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, the 100lb missile features semi-active laser seekers, a guidance computer and steering control, as well as propulsion systems, and can also be used by lock-on before or after launch for enhanced platform survivability.
> 
> South Korea requests AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles sale from US - Army Technology



I don't see any relation of this news with Pakistan ...


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## SipahSalar

HRK said:


> I don't see any relation of this news with Pakistan ...


I think he is giving an idea about how much of the $1billion is for the 1000 hellfires.

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> I don't see any relation of this news with Pakistan ...



Few pages back a indian member said variant of Hellfire ordered by PA in not NOT Anti Armor!!

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## airmarshal

Chinese Z-10 does not even come close to Zulu. This is a tremendous purchase. Its a game changer. In terms of weapons, support system, customer service, avionics and powerplants, China cant beat US.


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## Manticore

VelocuR said:


> *South Korea requests AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles sale from US*
> 
> 8 hours ago
> April 7 2015
> 
> The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency has notified Congress of a potential foreign military sale (FMS) of AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles and associated equipment to the Republic of Korea.
> 
> *Under the estimated $81m sale, South Korea has requested for the supply of 400 AGM-114R1 Hellfire II semi-active laser missiles with containers, 100 ATM-114Q air training missiles, and 12 M36E8 Hellfire II captive air training missiles.
> 
> South Korea intends to use the Hellfire missiles to supplement its existing missile capability and current weapon inventory, while strengthening its homeland defence and to deter regional threats.*
> 
> The sale is expected to contribute to South Korea's force modernisation goals and enhance interoperability with the US forces.
> 
> "The sale is expected to contribute to South Korea's force modernisation goals and enhance interoperability with the US forces."
> 
> The transaction directly contributes to the foreign policy and national security objectives of the US by addressing the legitimate security and defence requirements of South Korea, which is one of the major political and economic powers in East Asia and the Western Pacific, and a key partner of the US in ensuring peace and stability in the region.
> 
> Lockheed Martin will serve as prime contractor of the FMS programme.
> 
> *The Hellfire II missile uses a semi-active laser homing guidance system and an integrated blast fragmentation sleeve warhead to engage targets that previously required multiple Hellfire variants.*
> 
> The AGM-114 Hellfire is a precision-strike, multi-purpose missile designed primarily to provide anti-armour capabilities for attack helicopters against a wide range of targets in the battlefield.
> 
> Designed for launch from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, the 100lb missile features semi-active laser seekers, a guidance computer and steering control, as well as propulsion systems, and can also be used by lock-on before or after launch for enhanced platform survivability.
> 
> South Korea requests AGM-114R1 Hellfire missiles sale from US - Army Technology


Those are AGM-114R1 *Hellfire II *-- ours were AGM-114R *Hellfire II *in the report -- wonder whats the difference


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## ACE OF THE AIR

HRK said:


> I don't see any relation of this news with Pakistan ...





SipahSalar said:


> I think he is giving an idea about how much of the $1billion is for the 1000 hellfires.



It is not the quantity but the quality and utility that is being shown as it is being discuses in the posts leading to the South Korean order one.


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## Donatello

Stephen Cohen said:


> This PARTICULAR Variant R 2 is for soft vehicles like trucks and jeeps
> 
> The warhead is different in R 2 ; the warhead destroys the target not the missile



I guess you will want to be stupid by choice. No surprises there.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Manticore said:


> Those are AGM-114R1 -- ours were AGM-114R in the report -- wonder whats the difference


The different could be R1 is for Apache and the R is for Cobra.


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## VelocuR

HRK said:


> I don't see any relation of this news with Pakistan ...



Both South Korea and Pakistan has requested US in similar way few years ago. 

Let's see here - AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan. | Page 16



SipahSalar said:


> I think he is giving an idea about how much of the $1billion is for the 1000 hellfires.



You are right. * 80 million *for *400 AGM-114R1 Hellfire II. *

AH-1Z Viper itself is very high cost than Hellfire missiles.

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## C130

Pakistan should jump on the guided rocket train.


APKWS,Talon or DAGR, those cost 1/4 to 1/3 of a Hellfire missile.


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## Donatello

Manticore said:


> Those are AGM-114R1 -- ours were AGM-114R in the report -- wonder whats the difference



The Romeo II is for all targets......US Army will be procuring only this version from now on.....seriously, does it make sense for a chopper like AH64 or AH-1Z to carry multiple types of missiles? Anti armor means there will be infantry and IFVs as well....makes sense to have an all aspect missile.

But Indians cannot fathom.

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## NKVD

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Guys,
> For once let our Indian friends find some respite from the  that is burning after hearing the AH-1Z are heading for PAA.
> 
> If they think that the Hellfire-II is not anti-armor let them remain in fools paradise. They are going to see what it is capable of once it is fired then they would start to believe.
> 
> Till that time we should relax and enjoy.


What's there to burn .India is already in process of acquiring 39 Ah- 64D Block 3 may be more after this deal may be buy thousands of Hellfire or might get Jv project to build it's own.


A only PDF fanboy's in there fools paradise think that this deal will be the game changer in Indian perspective.

Till the enjoy your fanboy dream.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

C130 said:


> Pakistan should jump on the guided rocket train.
> 
> 
> APKWS,Talon or DAGR, those cost 1/4 to 1/3 of a Hellfire missile.


These are new type of US weapons and would not be offered. More over it would require more weapons training.


----------



## Manticore

Donatello said:


> The Romeo II is for all targets......US Army will be procuring only this version from now on.....seriously, does it make sense for a chopper like AH64 or AH-1Z to carry multiple types of missiles? Anti armor means there will be infantry and IFVs as well....makes sense to have an all aspect missile.
> 
> But Indians cannot fathom.


Those are korean AGM-114R1 *Hellfire II *-- ours were AGM-114R *Hellfire II *in the report -- wonder whats the difference

I think both above are romeo *II *


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## SipahSalar

airmarshal said:


> Chinese Z-10 does not even come close to Zulu. This is a tremendous purchase. Its a game changer. In terms of weapons, support system, customer service, avionics and powerplants, China cant beat US.


China is catching up fast. Z-10 will not only be armed by today's Chinese weapons, but tomorrow's coming weapons as well.
And during a war, forget using Zulu. You can keep it at an airbase as a showpiece because US will stop providing crucial support needed to keep this advanced choppers running. Then you can think about how much of a "game changer" the Zulus are. 
That said, i am not against the sale at all. I just want people to be realistic.

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## VelocuR

Manticore said:


> Those are korean AGM-114R1 *Hellfire II *-- ours were AGM-114R *Hellfire II *in the report -- wonder whats the difference
> 
> I think both above are romeo *II *



Dunno, I don't understand differences. Maybe little upgraded. I couldn't find correct information R vs R1.


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## C130

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> These are new type of US weapons and would not be offered. More over it would require more weapons training.



I think they would be offered. they are the perfect cheap system to kill terrorists. and I doubt the training would cost that much.

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## SipahSalar

C130 said:


> Pakistan should jump on the guided rocket train.
> 
> 
> APKWS,Talon or DAGR, those cost 1/4 to 1/3 of a Hellfire missile.


That's a smart idea. 
What's the engagement range for the rockets compared to hellfire?
How effective are they against armored targets?


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## Donatello

Manticore said:


> Those are korean AGM-114R1 *Hellfire II *-- ours were AGM-114R *Hellfire II *in the report -- wonder whats the difference
> 
> I think both above are romeo *II *



Ours is Romeo II.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

NKVD said:


> What's there to burn .India is already in process of acquiring 39 Ah- 64D Block 3 may be more after this deal may be buy thousands of Hellfire or might get Jv project to build it's own.
> 
> 
> A only PDF fanboy's in there fools paradise think that this deal will be the game changer in Indian perspective.
> 
> Till the enjoy your fanboy dream.


You are a senior but still you do not know that the deal with your beloved USA regarding the AH-64D Block III is still not signed. Boeing had given the GOI till 31st March 2015 to finalize it otherwise the price would increase and renegotiation would be required. 

Till that time you are the fan boy. As far as the AH-1Z is concerned they have been approved for PAA and more are going to be ordered once these start arriving by September this year.


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## Manticore

Donatello said:


> Ours is Romeo II.


AGM-114R2 *Hellfire II ?

s.cohen has just started a headache *


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## Donatello

NKVD said:


> What's there to burn .India is already in process of acquiring 39 Ah- 64D Block 3 may be more after this deal may be buy thousands of Hellfire or might get Jv project to build it's own.
> 
> 
> A only PDF fanboy's in there fools paradise think that this deal will be the game changer in Indian perspective.
> 
> Till the enjoy your fanboy dream.



Why is India always in the process of procuring something? Or always looking for Joint ventures?

I am sure a nation of 1.2 billion could do better than that.


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## SipahSalar

VelocuR said:


> Dunno, I don't understand differences. Maybe little upgraded. I couldn't find correct information R vs R1.


Don't know the difference either. 
"R" is for use against Light vehicles and soft targets.
It does not have fire and forget capability, it is semi-active radar guided.

"L" (longbow) version is the one used in Apaches.
It has fire and forget capability.
Can be used against all armored targets.

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## Donatello

Manticore said:


> AGM-114R2 *Hellfire II ?*



Perhaps.....can't seem to find much info on R1 or R2. It seems Hellfire II is the family....with R1 and R2 being different versions.

Just like the AIM120 Amraam has the A/B/C version and then a sub-version...like C-5 or C-7....C-8 being the AIM120D.


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## Manticore

Hellfire I/II missiles are the USA’s preferred aerial anti-armor missile, and are widely deployed with America’s allies.

A new AGM-114R “multi-purpose” Hellfire II is headed into production/ conversion. It adds some guidance and navigation improvements, and goes one step further than the K-A variant: it’s intended to *work well against all 3 target types: armored vehicles, fortified positions, or soft/open targets. * The “Romeo” will become the mainstay of the future Hellfire fleet, used from helicopters and UAVs, until and unless Hellfire itself is supplanted by the JAGM program. Hellfire systems product manager US Army Lt. Col. Mike Brown:
US Hellfire Missile Orders, FY 2011-2014
“One of the most noticeable operational enhancements in the AGM-114R missile is that the pilot can now select the [blast type] while on the move and without having to have a pre-set mission load prior to departure… This is a big deal in insurgency warfare, as witnessed in Afghanistan where the Taliban are fighting in the open and simultaneously planning their next attacks in amongst the local populace using fixed structure facilities to screen their presence.”


The AGM-114R2 goes a step farther, and adds a height of burst sensor to make the 3-way warhead even more useful.
Four more Hellfire variants feature key changes that aren’t related to their warhead types.
AGM-114R “multi-purpose” Hellfire II for Pakistani Vipers
@Stephen Cohen

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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Perhaps.....can't seem to find much info on R1 or R2. It seems Hellfire II is the family....with R1 and R2 being different versions.
> 
> Just like the AIM120 Amraam has the A/B/C version and then a sub-version...like C-5 or C-7....C-8 being the AIM120D.


i am 100% sure pakistanis will buy mature old system like they got C5 amraams we cant take risk of 1000 damn missiles


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## Donatello

Manticore said:


> AGM-114R2 *Hellfire II ?
> 
> s.cohen has just started a headache *



He is an ignorant troll. Hellfire II R is an all aspect missile for ground targets.......what might differ is the guidance......what matters to us is the warhead. Just like the French MICA comes in IR and Active radar homing versions..

If the Koreans got the MMR radar, their missile might be different.

@Oscar can you provide some input?

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## C130

SipahSalar said:


> That's a smart idea.
> What's the engagement range for the rockets compared to hellfire?
> How effective are they against armored targets?




just guessing but probably 4 km or depending on how high the firing altitude is. 



Donatello said:


> Ours is Romeo II.




jesus christ all of them are just a Hellfire II Romeo it doesn't matter what comes after the R part besides what branch it's used for or country I bet.


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## pak avatar

"Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program."
Any idea if any restrictions will be imposed on their usage or where we can park them, since these r advanced weapons and the chinese might want a peek?


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## shaheenmissile

Imran Khan said:


> 20 as i know sir
> 
> 
> and sir you might be aware that same tali-dog can blast a 5 star hotel and kill dozens in minutes .


Well the Tallybunnies send 4-5 outcasts with Kalashinkovs whom nobody will miss,not even their parents as they are normally 20th child of their parents and rejected before birth.
And the weirdos end thir pathatic life in self blow job called suicide bombing as a escape from their miserable useless lives, and kill dozens of bright sparks who were well loved by their family.
All that costs tallibunnies nothing as plenty of rejected psycho kids available in Tribal areas where people think its their duty to raise the population of planet earth by pumping out a baby every 8-9 months,but dont teach their spwans any humanity.

On the other hand we spend ever so expensive weapons on killing those losers who are worthless burdens on earth.

This dis parity has to end. For us killing them should be as cheap as it is for them killing us.

Thats the only way we can sustain this war. 
Expensive fancy weapons wont help at all as we wont be able to bear the cost while Taliweirdos will keep killing us at next to no expense other than their socially rejected suicude mules.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

pak avatar said:


> "Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program."
> Any idea if any restrictions will be imposed on their usage or where we can park them, since these r advanced weapons and the chinese might want a peek?


With these kind of sanctions the only base that can be used is the one the F-16blk 52's are positioned.


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## Thorough Pro

a thousand hellfire would provide a nice warm end to cold start



Manticore said:


> A 1000 hellfires* II *is no joke -- these are one of the primary weapons of even apache

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## Imran Khan

shaheenmissile said:


> Well the Tallybunnies send 4-5 outcasts with Kalashinkovs whom nobody will miss,not even their parents as they are normally 20th child of their parents and rejected before birth.
> And the weirdos end thir pathatic life in self blow job called suicide bombing as a escape from their miserable useless lives, and kill dozens of bright sparks who were well loved by their family.
> All that costs tallibunnies nothing as plenty of rejected psycho kids available in Tribal areas where people think its their duty to raise the population of planet earth by pumping out a baby every 8-9 months,but dont teach their spwans any humanity.
> 
> On the other hand we spend ever so expensive weapons on killing those losers who are worthless burdens on earth.
> 
> This dis parity has to end. For us killing them should be as cheap as it is for them killing us.
> 
> Thats the only way we can sustain this war.
> Expensive fancy weapons wont help at all as we wont be able to bear the cost while Taliweirdos will keep killing us at next to no expense other than their socially rejected suicude mules.


sir give us solutions i know they did not worth 1 penny life but those innocents killed by these bastards are very very expansive for us so we have no choice but to pay for secure our people . i don't know what damn these tribal s study and blast themselves in markets .

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## tahir195

Russian Mi-28Nm is the best of the best option but i think that PAKISTAN feel compatible with American weapons


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## NKVD

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You are a senior but still you do not know that the deal with your beloved USA regarding the AH-64D Block III is still not signed. Boeing had given the GOI till 31st March 2015 to finalize it otherwise the price would increase and renegotiation would be required.
> 
> Till that time you are the fan boy. As far as the AH-1Z is concerned they have been approved for PAA and more are going to be ordered once these start arriving by September this year.


That deadline can be extended like previously mod already requested that to Boeing and deal will be signed within this financial year 
Copter deal: India seeks extension of price validity - timesofindia-economictimes

India May Sign Helo Deal by Boeing Deadline

Delivery can be made from next year onwards and India will buy enough.PA cannot complete with Us in ratio.


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## Imran Khan

NKVD said:


> That deadline can be extended like previously mod already requested that to Boeing and deal will be signed within this financial year
> India May Sign Helo Deal by Boeing Deadline
> 
> Delivery can be made from next year onwards and India will buy enough.PA cannot complete with Us in ratio.


and pa has to defend 3 times smaller area then you and have one hostile border .we got how many we need we dn't give a shit to numbers of india as we know how many we need well .


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## NKVD

Imran Khan said:


> and pa has to defend 3 times smaller area then you and have one hostile border .we got how many we need we dn't give a shit to numbers of india as we know how many we need well .


15 helos is not a large number that can contain competition which IA will put on different levels operations in war scenario. 

Ps: bhaijaan aap kahan doh murgoh ki ladyi ke beech kud gye


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## Imran Khan

Imran Khan said:


> and pa has to defend 3 times smaller area then you and have one hostile border .we got how many we need we dn't give a shit to numbers of india as we know how many we need well .





NKVD said:


> 15 helps is not a large number that can contain competition which IA will put on different levels operations
> 
> Ps: bhaijaan aap kahan beech kud gye


 did you remember one thing here ? gates will be open for us now  on topic i have free time yaar 

*Program* *Model* *Block* *Qty.* *Serials* *Delivered
Peace Gate I* F-16A Block 15 2 82701/82702 1983
F-16B Block 15 4 82601/82604 1983
*Peace Gate II* F-16A Block 15 26 83703, 84704/84719,
85720/85728 1983-1987
F-16B Block 15 8 82605, 84606/84608,
85609/85612 1983-1987
*Peace Gate III* F-16A block 15OCU 6 91729, 92730/92734 embargoed
F-16B Block 15OCU 5 91613, 92614/92617 embargoed
*Peace Gate IV* F-16A Block 15OCU 7 92735/92739, 93740/93741 embargoed
F-16B Block 15OCU 10 92618, 93619/93621,
94622/94624, 95625/95627 embargoed
F-16A Block 15OCU 41 9_742/9_782 stop-work
F-16B Block 15OCU 2 9_628/9_629 stop-work
*Peace Drive* F-16C Block 52 12 10901/10912 2010
F-16D Block 52 6 10801/10806 2010 

cobras will come again and again only problem is first deal


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## NKVD

Imran Khan said:


> did you remember one thing here ? gates will be open for us now  on topic i have free time yaar
> 
> *Program* *Model* *Block* *Qty.* *Serials* *Delivered
> Peace Gate I* F-16A Block 15 2 82701/82702 1983
> F-16B Block 15 4 82601/82604 1983
> *Peace Gate II* F-16A Block 15 26 83703, 84704/84719,
> 85720/85728 1983-1987
> F-16B Block 15 8 82605, 84606/84608,
> 85609/85612 1983-1987
> *Peace Gate III* F-16A block 15OCU 6 91729, 92730/92734 embargoed
> F-16B Block 15OCU 5 91613, 92614/92617 embargoed
> *Peace Gate IV* F-16A Block 15OCU 7 92735/92739, 93740/93741 embargoed
> F-16B Block 15OCU 10 92618, 93619/93621,
> 94622/94624, 95625/95627 embargoed
> F-16A Block 15OCU 41 9_742/9_782 stop-work
> F-16B Block 15OCU 2 9_628/9_629 stop-work
> *Peace Drive* F-16C Block 52 12 10901/10912 2010
> F-16D Block 52 6 10801/10806 2010
> 
> cobras will come again and again only problem is first deal


But since Pakistan cosy with Chinese too.it will cost them in war time when they need much logistics support from US due to its double edge policy.

Price is also a key factor in this deal .hope this deal with US woun't turn out to be "Deal with Devil" For PA.


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## Manticore

NKVD said:


> But since Pakistan cosy with Chinese too.it will cost them in war time when they need much logistics support from US due to its double edge policy.
> 
> Price is also a key factor in this deal .hope this deal with US woun't turn out to be "Deal with Devil" For PA.


It would be interesting to compare the unit cost of our missile and heli with your probable deal of missile and heli


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

That's How Uncle Sam give Lollipops


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## Imran Khan

NKVD said:


> But since Pakistan cosy with Chinese too.it will cost them in war time when they need much logistics support from US due to its double edge policy.
> 
> Price is also a key factor in this deal .hope this deal with US woun't turn out to be "Deal with Devil" For PA.


did you guys see anything positive in this package ? i think no you cant this deal leads PAA to next generation . its game changer if you see nutral eye.nothing can be done better then this china just lask week send choppers its need time to find out goods and bads then decide changes and then apply changes it will take 2-3 years for final.for your kind info pakistanis test many choppers liek tiger - mi-28 z-10 and sure ah-1z and t-139 they selcted cobra and there is something for us here look here bro

it has same M109 gun which in old cobras so ammo and tech we have already 
it has same hydra-70 rocket pods which we have thousands in service and can use on it
it has same AIM-9 which we have thousands in service 
its great induction we already have tons of ammo we have training on similar product . 

think postie

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## ACE OF THE AIR

NKVD said:


> That deadline can be extended like previously mod already requested that to Boeing and deal will be signed within this financial year
> Copter deal: India seeks extension of price validity - timesofindia-economictimes
> 
> India May Sign Helo Deal by Boeing Deadline
> 
> Delivery can be made from next year onwards and India will buy enough.PA cannot complete with Us in ratio.



Yes the deadlines can be extended but they also have a limit to how much one can wait. I hope you would understand that you have to live in the present tense not in past or future. If we look at the present GOI always thinks that they are going to delay all the procurement that are required because they might have to face a lot of criticism and face accountability issues if they sign multi-billion dollar deals too rapidly. 

These deals might not complete in the stipulated time due to the huge back log. 

On the other hand when we look at Pakistan and the deals they do we can see that they are not large but they are designed to a specific time frame. Pakistan tends to have an upper hand regarding the time frame and also in maintenance. 

Now if the AH-1Z or any other Heli is procured before the Counterparts then it is a bonus. Why? The time to achieve full command would not be compromised by the late arrival. More over some more hands on experience would have be gained during the counterparts training phase. 

Though this is off topic.


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## Donatello

@MastanKhan 

Hopefully, Multan will have new AH-1Zs soon.

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## razgriz19

I'm pretty sure Zulus will be kept away for our eastern border, of course they will play around with them in KPK, but thats just to get a good hold on them. They need to master it before it can be put against any enemy.


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## inaveed72

tahir195 said:


> Abay kia chutiya smjha howa hai tum nhi do ge to kia koi bhi nhi dega
> 
> Russian Mi-28Nm is the best of the best option but i think that PAKISTAN feel compatible with American weapons


Agree with you bro

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## Imran Khan

this is the benefit of all doors opened man look this is how india juice nations learn this tactic for god sake


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## NKVD

Manticore said:


> It would be interesting to compare the unit cost of our missile and heli with your probable deal of missile and heli


Yeah for sure in 2 billion we are getting 22 block3 apache's with 500 hellfire & 15 chinooks 

For paying half, 1 billion$ You are getting 15 ah-1z viper with 1000 missiles.

Compare both deals operationally


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## Green Arrow

Our defence purchases is really going high these days which is a good sigh.


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## wiseone2

Imran Khan said:


> this is the benefit of all doors opened man look this is how india juice nations learn this tactic for god sake



Russians will not swallow the bait the next time unless you place a real big order


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## Imran Khan

wiseone2 said:


> Russians will not swallow the bait the next time unless you place a real big order


and why so ? we already order 20 from them . BTW its not kids game its pure business.FYI pakistan was never depend on russia ever for weapons



Green Arrow said:


> Our defence purchases is really going high these days which is a good sigh.


i disagree its bad sign for poor country but we have no option for survive sir


----------



## NKVD

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes the deadlines can be extended but they also have a limit to how much one can wait. I hope you would understand that you have to live in the present tense not in past or future. If we look at the present GOI always thinks that they are going to delay all the procurement that are required because they might have to face a lot of criticism and face accountability issues if they sign multi-billion dollar deals too rapidly.
> 
> These deals might not complete in the stipulated time due to the huge back log.
> 
> On the other hand when we look at Pakistan and the deals they do we can see that they are not large but they are designed to a specific time frame. Pakistan tends to have an upper hand regarding the time frame and also in maintenance.
> 
> Now if the AH-1Z or any other Heli is procured before the Counterparts then it is a bonus. Why? The time to achieve full command would not be compromised by the late arrival. More over some more hands on experience would have be gained during the counterparts training phase.
> 
> Though this is off topic.


One has to wait because of more they wait better they get best business opportunities 

India has huge market that any other nation around the globe has 
US is desperatly waiting to grab share of this market for years 

Any expert can analyse this apache deal is just a tip of the iceberg there many huge projects waiting in line.

USA knows that India will provide there market huge share with its large defence procurements they know we pay them Hard cash. Not ask for soft loans.


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## 420canada

if went through USA will be giving Pakistan some serious fire power... that it needs for fighting terrorist and a large army toward the east .cough ,cough ..


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## cabatli_53

Donatello said:


> Z-10 and T-129 both, won't be procured together......only one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but since Turkey has it's own full T-129 ATAK program underway, why would it want local systems integration in the AH-1Zs? Just get them as they come.




The tender AH-1Z selected had been opened at the beggining of 2000's. I mean It is not a new development. Today, We have developed an AH-1Z like attack helicopter that We rules each parts from mission computers to avionics, missiles and sensors. Atak helicopters are being manufactured with a speed of 12 per year at present.

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## Wolfhound

save_ghenda said:


> Does anyone know which helicopter they used at the end of movie Furious 7? Because it looked freeking awsome.


It was custom made, probably a mi17 made to look like a stealth chopper.


----------



## cabatli_53

VelocuR said:


> Hopefully India lobbies will pressure USA to cancel AH-1Z Vipers deal with Pakistan, we don't need just few 15 peanuts.




If DSCA approval is received, Noone can block it.

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## A.M.

AH-1Z in action


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## Wolfhound

SipahSalar said:


> That's a smart idea.
> What's the engagement range for the rockets compared to hellfire?
> How effective are they against armored targets?


Its has almosy the same range as the hellfire which is 7 to 8 km. The system uses hydra 70 mm rockets which have 4 to 5 kg warhead.


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## cabatli_53

SipahSalar said:


> Indeed. But AH-1W still remain the primary combat chopper for Turkey right? Are there any plans on a version of T-129 with a larger takeoff weight?



Turkey has 10 AH-1W and 25+ AH-1F/P Cobra's + 1 test-bed AH-1P Cobra in inventory at present. The inventory is being enlarged with T129 Atak configurations to be manufactured the number of 91.

-T129A is developed for primerily COIN missions. In following year, 9 A variant is going to be upgraded to B1 configuration.
-T129B1 poses a take off weight of 5000kg and It is the real multi-purpose anti-tank/surveillance configuration aimed for Atak program at the beggining.

- (If Turkish Army approves, Latest 21 Atak will be manufactured as B2 configuration) TAI works on the take-off weight of B2 to be increased between %5-%10 (max. 500kg), While new generation avionic systems/hardwares will be installed to gain aprox. %50 lighter weight of current A version's avionics. Such efforts will make B2 to be able to carry different payload and increased range. The Nose section will be re-designed/quite longer than current standart A and B1 versions and Maybe It is going to be a munition box like Apache for 20mm canon on B2.

In accordance with statements TAI manager Muharrem Dortkasli spoke, The members tried to draw an avarage design of B2 configuration.








-----------------------------------------------------


Remember an old news from defencenews which summarize current developments...



*Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal*

ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA — Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and *is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.*

However, the *US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.*

Turkish officials confirmed talks have *“matured to a certain extent,”* and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

“We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,” said one senior procurement official in Ankara. “We have a longer-term vision over any deal. *We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.”*

However, *a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares.*

“Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.”

Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

*Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.*

*“I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.”*

*Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com*

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## SecularNationalist

Manticore said:


> India has offered a follow-on order of 39 AH-64D Apache helicopters in addition to the 22 now being negotiated, a Defence Ministry official said. The sides have been wrangling over the price of the gunships, however, with the initial deal having been estimated to be worth* $1.4 billion.*
> indian March 31 deadline
> India offers to buy more U.S. helicopters, hopes to drive down costs
> 
> what was included in the apache/hellfire deal ? Want to find out unit costs of viper vs apache
> @sancho


AH-64D is the most expensive version of apache and the total price for 39 AH-64D,s should be $2.5 billion(One has a price of $65 million) .Indians got a fair price for 22 pieces($1.4 billion =65*22)
One new viper cost,s $31 million.

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## Mughal-Prince

Muhammad Omar said:


> Nope it's 20



Wait and watch


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## Djinn

For Pakistan best option is to go for WZ-10 and if the Americans are feeling so generous and truly want to assist Pakistan in its WOT, then perhaps they wont mind providing Pakistan with engines for WZ-10's(in case the current one's are found to be not as potent as the western one's).


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## SipahSalar

cabatli_53 said:


> Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.


Alas, his fears are validated. I think supplying arms to a country is one of the major ways to influence a nation. And Pakistan being a militaristic weapons hungry state, it was too good an opportunity for US to pass on.


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## SQ8

@Manticore @Donatello @Imran Khan

The Hellfire Missiles approved are NOT Anti Tank missiles

They are AGM 114 R Hellfire 2[/QUOTE]

Please dont display your idiotic pithy mentality everywhere in trying to bring down everything Pakistani, Banned from thread for being a wikipedia parrot. 

_A significantly improved version of the AGM-114 missile is being developed for the Army as the *AGM-114R*. This variant has a new Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) warhead, which combines the features of a shaped-charge and a blast-fragmentation warhead. Compared to the AGM-114P, the AGM-114R has increased engagement envelope and lethality, and a variable-delay fuze timed by laser codes. It can be employed by all Hellfire-compatible helicopter and UAV platforms.
_
Basically it can target both hardened bunkers and Armour targets.

*ALL MEMBERS ARE ADVISED TO REPORT ANY POINTLESS ARGUMENTS TO DERAIL AND TROLL THE THREAD BY THOSE ACROSS THE BORDER ASAP.*



SipahSalar said:


> This is what armchair generals don't understand, Attack Choppers rarely go up against enemy Attack Choppers, almost never. If anything, their effectiveness should be measured by how good they are at maneuvering and taking out tanks from distance.


You still have to provide Arm Chair generals their satisfaction. 
However, whilst it is RARE.. it is not unlikely that Attack choppers end up having to engage other helicopters.



Donatello said:


> He is an ignorant troll. Hellfire II R is an all aspect missile for ground targets.......what might differ is the guidance......what matters to us is the warhead. Just like the French MICA comes in IR and Active radar homing versions..
> 
> If the Koreans got the MMR radar, their missile might be different.
> 
> @Oscar can you provide some input?



The MMR radar variant is linked with the Longbow radar system. Whilst the Zulu can carry the Longbow system the one Pakistan is getting is without it. 

To further finish the argument and leave a reference in case another Cha from across the border comes along with another copy paste. 

_The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout._

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## Donatello

Gentlemen, please keep the WZ-10 and ATAK discussions out....this thread is for the merits of the AH-1Z sale.

Many are claiming that USA offered this and Pakistan can refuse.....however, it was Pakistan that requested this equipment way back, and if Pakistan passes on now, then that would be a stupid decision.

We can consider the merits of WZ-10, T-129 and AH-1Z on a separate thread.


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## waz

It's a good deal and a great machine. The Z-10 evaluation and hopeful subsequent deal is independent from this. 
I'm unhappy that this could mean the end for the ATAK deal, which would have been a great prospect for the army.


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## Donatello

waz said:


> It's a good deal and a great machine. The Z-10 evaluation and hopeful subsequent deal is independent from this.
> I'm unhappy that this could mean the end for the ATAK deal, which would have been a great prospect for the army.



Again, ATAK would be very good, if US equipment was off limits......but since now the US has approved, that question is gone.
So for the back bone, it would be WZ10 or ATAK.....whichever offers better performance/reliability/tailored systems.

Plus it is AH-1z a tested western system vs ATAK....we need to put helos in action today.......they are desperately needed.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> And what is the reason for that? Do you have a clue on it?



Why did we or appear to be going for this deal ?  

Why not the Turkish option ?


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## salarsikander

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Well this is what I found From Wiki
> *Unit cost*
> US$27 million[1] CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft - 12/20/2010 - Flight Global
> US$31 million (new built)[2] http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf
> Though the second link is not opening.





cabatli_53 said:


> The tender AH-1Z selected had been opened at the beggining of 2000's. I mean It is not a new development. Today, We have developed an AH-1Z like attack helicopter that We rules each parts from mission computers to avionics, missiles and sensors. Atak helicopters are being manufactured with a speed of 12 per year at present.


Hi, 

Perhaps later on we can look forward to Turkey for servicng these machines, just like MLU programs


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## Path-Finder

Oscar said:


> I am not saying, the United States ARMY is confirming that. And the manufacturer of the missile is stating it.



Well the debate from last few pages with indians telling us it is not anti armor to the land of confusion where no one can crack the enigma of Hellfire varient, only on


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## C130

shaheenmissile said:


> And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
> Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
> We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.



you can use 20 mm and hydra 70 for the same thing.

but how I look at it to kill a few terrorists with a $100,000 hellfire is cheaper then having to take care of a soldier who's been injured by a IED from that same terrorist. which would cost who knows a few hundred thousand to a million over a lifetime.


but I see your point

.





this is exactly what Iraq is doing.


i personally would like a small heli and a minigun to mop up terrorists cheap and cool

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## SQ8

Path-Finder said:


> Well the debate from last few pages with indians telling us it is not anti armor to the land of confusion where no one can crack the enigma of Hellfire varient, only on



Please, their entire purpose of existence in life seems to be spreading misinformation. Best to NEVER believe any Indian outside of those wonderful people part of our Think Tank and Professional setup(and perhaps.. 5 others who are not) who are generally armed with proper knowledge and know what they are talking about.

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## syedali73

Get them but do not drop the Chinese/Turkish options. In an eventuality, US will drop Pakistan like a hot potato and we'll be embargoed in no time.

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## Winchester

*AH-1Z Viper • Close Air Support *

*



*


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## C130

syedali73 said:


> Get them but do not drop the Chinese/Turkish options. In an eventuality, US will drop Pakistan like a hot potato and we'll be embargoed in no time.




maybe  is Pakistan going to be a bad boy to get those sanctions??


I think we are under the impression that these helis and missile will used solely for counter terrorists ops


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## airmarshal

NKVD said:


> Yeah for sure in 2 billion we are getting 22 block3 apache's with 500 hellfire & 15 chinooks
> 
> For paying half, 1 billion$ You are getting 15 ah-1z viper with 1000 missiles.
> 
> Compare both deals operationally



I dont think the deal is final. Usually there will be some negotiation. Also, the first purchase is a little expensive as it comes with experts, training in the country and abroad. 

AH-1Z is quite capable platform. If not better than Apache, then as good.



Oscar said:


> To further finish the argument and leave a reference in case another Cha from across the border comes along with another copy paste.
> 
> _The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout._



Good one @Oscar. Some good info as well as reprimand for a sidekick


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## syedali73

C130 said:


> maybe  is Pakistan going to be a bad boy to get those sanctions??
> 
> 
> I think we are under the impression that these helis and missile will used solely for counter terrorists ops


It is not about being a bad boy, it is about not submitting one's selves completely to US or aligning one's policies with those of US. There will always be instances when we'll try to do things that would be in our best national interest but not attuned with US interests.

I am not sure but the money going to be spent on these embargo -prone items from US could better be spent in JV projects with China. At this concluding stage of war against TTP, do we really need these helicopters? How long will it take to get those? @Oscar


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## SQ8

C130 said:


> maybe  is Pakistan going to be a bad boy to get those sanctions??
> 
> 
> I think we are under the impression that these helis and missile will used solely for counter terrorists ops



These Helis will be used as they wish regardless of what story is spun. 
Really doesnt matter though, techically we maintain a balance between two Squabblers.. Keep India "Balanced", keep Pakistan "Balanced"(if there is any word for that country).. and Keep China from having total monopoly in Pakistan.. and make some money along the way.. Win Win!. 

What most people in their anger forget, that when FMF is given out and US equipment is purchased.. technically that is money back in the coffer of the United States treasury and keeps keeps hundreds if not thousands of US families in employment. Call it a subsidy if you wish.



syedali73 said:


> It is not about being a bad boy, it is about not submitting one's selves completely to US or aligning one's policies with those of US. There will always be instances when we'll try to do things that would be in our best national interest but not attuned with US interests.
> 
> I am not sure but the money going to be spent on these embargo -prone items from US could better be spent in JV projects with China. At this concluding stage of war against TTP, do we really need these helicopters? How long will it take to get those? @Oscar



Depends upon the program office managing it but three years probably.

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## C130

Oscar said:


> These Helis will be used as they wish regardless of what story is spun.
> Really doesnt matter though, techically we maintain a balance between two Squabblers.. Keep India "Balanced", keep Pakistan "Balanced"(if there is any word for that country).. and Keep China from having total monopoly in Pakistan.. and make some money along the way.. Win Win!.
> 
> What most people in their anger forget, that when FMF is given out and US equipment is purchased.. technically that is money back in the coffer of the United States treasury and keeps keeps hundreds if not thousands of US families in employment. Call it a subsidy if you wish.




if I was a socialist I would just say take that billion and give 1,000 familes $10,000 or a tax break.

Pakistan can do what she likes, but I think we all suspect U.S military aid and equipment to be used against Pakistan homegrown and foreign terrorists and not India or other neighbors.

but it doesn't tip the balance either way


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## alikazmi007

Pretty Cool Optics:

Did some research on *AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems. We're suppose to be getting 17 of these;
*









_The most significant AH-1Z enhancement is the Lockheed Martin AAQ-30 Hawkeye target sight system (TSS)._ It comprises a colour TV, laser rangefinder/designator, laser spot tracker and a mid-wave FLIR, which the USMC claims offers twice the detection, recognition and identification range of second generation systems. The TSS has four fields of view and extended range (XR) mode, which with image processing provides another _60% range increase_. The TSS more than adequately meets the Hellfire II's 9km range and keeps the AH-1Z beyond the reach of most man portable surface-to-air missiles.

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## Path-Finder

C130 said:


> if I was a socialist I would just say take that billion and give 1,000 familes $10,000 or a tax break.
> 
> Pakistan can do what she likes, but I think we all suspect U.S military aid and equipment to be used against Pakistan homegrown and foreign terrorists and *not India or other neighbors*.
> 
> but it doesn't tip the balance either way



Yeah well does it work the other way as well if you scrutinize one side and allow the allow the other to have a open hand then you truly are kidding your self. Hypocrisy!!!


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## C130

is also used by the KC-130 Harvest Hawk.


Path-Finder said:


> Yeah well does it work the other way as well if you scrutinize one side and allow the allow the other to have a open hand then you truly are kidding your self. Hypocrisy!!!




aye I want both sides to have peace. I honestly think terrorism is the biggest threat to both countries.

and I believe that's the target these two systems will face in the coming decades.

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## MastanKhan

Donatello said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> Hopefully, Multan will have new AH-1Zs soon.




The cobras fly right close to my house. I can walk upto the fence of the runway on the north side.

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## alikazmi007

Here's the info on the *Top Owl, AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems;*
We're suppose to be getting 32 of these systems.


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## Path-Finder

alikazmi007 said:


> Here's the info on the *Top Owl, AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems;*
> We're suppose to be getting 32 of these systems.
> 
> View attachment 212945



Let me take a stab in the Dark. 15 helos? 2 Crew per helo? 15 x 2 = 30 + 2 Top Owl, AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems!!


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## alikazmi007

Path-Finder said:


> Let me take a stab in the Dark. 15 helos? 2 Crew per helo? 15 x 2 = 30 + 2 Top Owl, AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems!!



got that right!!! 

Just one extra pair as a reserve, doesn't make good sense.
We should have at least three more pairs, just in case, a bird goes down and the ones already used by the crew are not recoverable (God forbids).......

1 Billion$ for just 15 Helos, whose soul are forfeiting to get this 'magnificent deal'?


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## Saifullah Sani

*State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal*

*



*

The US State Department has cleared a $952 million sale to Pakistan that includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announcement.
The sale is intended to support Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high-altitudes, according to DSCA's Monday announcement. Pakistan would use the gear in operations in the North Waziristan Agency, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments.
"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement says.
The local Bell representatives in Pakistan, Access Zone, did not respond to queries regarding when they expected delivery should the deal be approved, or if they hoped more would be acquired to fully replace the approximately 48 Cobras currently in service.
Analysts in Pakistan expressed surprise at the announcement. Though the Viper had long been suggested as a replacement for the current fleet of AH-1F/S helicopter gunships, US congressional opposition seemed to make acquisition of further US equipment unlikely.
*Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, says he was "absolutely certain that the US would not supply any more attack helicopters."*
But he welcomes the announcement.
"This is very good news for Pakistan on two counts: First, the Army is getting one of the most sophisticated attack helicopters in the world; second, it shows that the US has not abandoned Pakistan, as so many people thought it had," he said.
*"It does require the assent of Congress," said Cloughley, "but if Congress were to block it this would send a negative message concerning its determination to keep up the war on terror."*
*This is not to say that unrestricted arms sales will resume as "it seems that the main criterion is that US-supplied materiel must be COIN [counterinsurgency] specific. There would be difficulty in providing systems that are obviously intended for general warfare, i.e. against India," Cloughley says.*
Claude Rakisits, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's South Asia Center, said that "in its deliberations about whether to approve such a sale to Pakistan, the fact that the provision of this new capability will not alter the military balance between the two nuclear-armed states – Pakistan and India – will make it easier for the lawmakers to agree to this sale."
The announcement comes at a time when multiple types of helicopters are being pursued, both to replace the Cobras, and potentially support paramilitary and special forces operations.
Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that even though it is a small number, the Vipers could replace at least some of the Cobras and it comes at a time when China has supplied three WZ-10 gunships, and Russia may be close to supplying approximately 20 Mi-35 Hinds
Agence France-Press reported Friday that Pakistan has in recent weeks focused its fight against the Taliban on the Tirah Valley, a Federally Administered Tribal Area, with a series of air strikes and ground assaults. Though the area, with steep valleys and dense woods, is inaccessible, Pakistan's military has claimed it has taken control of key terrain there.
Pakistan had sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace the Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies in and around the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In November, it appeared Pakistan was closing a deal for Mi-35 Hind heavy attack helicopters, based on a Pakistani radio interview with Russia's ambassador.
The US sale includes 32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems; 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe; 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems; 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets; 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers; 15 joint mission planning systems; and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.
Bell Helicopter, Textron, General Electric, Boeing and Lockheed Martin will be the principal contractors.
State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal

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## SQ8

C130 said:


> if I was a socialist I would just say take that billion and give 1,000 familes $10,000 or a tax break.
> 
> Pakistan can do what she likes, but I think we all suspect U.S military aid and equipment to be used against Pakistan homegrown and foreign terrorists and not India or other neighbors.
> 
> but it doesn't tip the balance either way



It always will be. And you cant really keep it that way. The US military rotates units and equipment(we dont leave the F-16s of one sq in Bagram so the pilots of an A-10 unit come into fly it), so the does PakMil.

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## umair86

Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment



US Equipment is battle tested and Hi-tech thats the reason


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## Manticore

Lets keep this thread from getting derailed

Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions. | Page 85
CHINA PROVIDED Z10 HELICOPTER TO PAKISTAN | Page 34

If a member says that pak hellfire missile isnt antitank, just guide him to this thread below without derailing any other thread.It has all the ''links''
AGM-114R multi-purpose Hellfire II missile for Pakistani Vipers | Page 2

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## Zarvan

*US poised to sell nearly USD1 billion of attack helos, weapons to Pakistan*
*Marina Malenic, Washington, DC* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
07 April 2015


The US Department of State has approved a request from Pakistan for USD952 million worth of attack helicopters and weapons for use in Islamabad's ongoing counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on 6 April.





Pakistan has been approved to purchase 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and weapons. (IHS Jane's/Patrick Allen)

Specifically, Pakistan has requested 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, including engines and spares, as well as 1000 AGM-114 Hellfire II Missiles and their targeting and communications systems.

"This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes," the DSCA said in a statement. "By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments."




To read the full article
US poised to sell nearly USD1 billion of attack helos, weapons to Pakistan - IHS Jane's 360

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## cmpk

There are couple of things that some of you need to understand. 

All you're seeing is 15 vipers & $1Bn, which isn't the case & certainly not this SIMPLE of a deal!

My advice to the ones who can't understand/comprehend the deal should read about it.

AH-Z1 Vipers are high tech, will be inducted right away (since we already got the facilities & expertise because of the cobras, just need little tweaking for this new baby), low on maintenance cost (eg hinge less rotators, mean 75% less parts), not in anyway inferior to the Apaches but certainly superior to the Chinese & Russian's. 

1000 hellfire missiles is the other BIG thing in this deal. Obviously these missiles won't be used against the Taliban scums, just for the high value targets & for Burraq drones & Pakistan is now capable enough to indigenously produce one once they'd get these. Its a win-win in my opinion.

And in this cost you're going to get high tech communication equipments as well, plus the training & integration of all these things. 

For $1Bn we're getting high tech equipment & technology - not a bad deal at all! Have you guys forgotten about the fact that how F-16 helped us in making JF-17? What about Babur cruise missiles? Remember US fired few cruise missiles on OBL but they malfunctioned & fell on Pak-Afghan border region. Pakistan is very capable now, this deal will help in transferring tech too. Broaden your thinking. 

As for the Chinese deal, that will happen, we're not going to stall on that, if the testing goes well, so, stop panicking.

But keep in mind that setting up a new facility & training takes up time & cost! & few of you were saying invest $1Bn in some new joint venture, that would take us 10 year to roll out a prototype! Need to balance out things & that is what Pak army is doing.

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## Zarvan

*US approves $952 mollion sale of helicopters, missiles to Pakistan


Washington:* The Obama administration has notified the US Congress it's selling Pakistan $952 million worth of attack helicopters, air-to-surface missiles and other military assistance saying it will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The State Department has approved the sale saying the "helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter terrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia," the Pentagon's defence sales arms said Tuesday.

The proposed sale will include 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and 1000 AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million, the Defence Security Cooperation Agency said.





The State Department has approved the sale saying the "helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter terrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia," the Pentagon's defence sales arms said Tuesday.

#pakistan #india #helicopters #missiles
The package also includes 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems and system integration and testing.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to US foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement said.

It "will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes."

"By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments," DSCA said.

Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces,it said.

"The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region," DSCA said.

The principal contractors will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, Texas; General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts; The Boeing Company in Huntsville, Alabama; and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland.
US approves $952 mollion sale of helicopters, missiles to Pakistan - IBNLive


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## Stealth

Fawad Mahsud said:


> That's How Uncle Sam give Lollipops



Kid search about Zulu thn we will discuss lollypop lol


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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> Kid search about Zulu thn we will discuss lollypop lol


Go read Indians reactions on this news on there defence forums they are too pissed of and angry on this. Its really funny a must read


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## AwA.




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## MadDog

With the economy improving its good to see Pak purchasing equipment from US, rather than getting it for free under FMF program


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Kid search about Zulu thn we will discuss lollypop lol


i wondr when kids talk on defense equipment and pose as experts

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## HRK

Donatello said:


> we need to put helos in action *today*.......they are desperately needed.





> Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months.
> 
> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency



These helis (or any other which we may choose) are late for our today's need .... but can be used for the need of tomorrow, if god forbid that arises.


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## Imran Khan

HRK said:


> These helis (or any other which we may choose) are late for our today's need .... but can be used for the need of tomorrow, if god forbid that arises.


they will be backbone of PAA next 20 - 25 years sir or even more

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## HRK

Imran Khan said:


> they will be backbone of PAA next 20 - 25 years sir or even more



yaap thats why I am saying they will serve our 'future need' ....

Talibans ke liya 'Basi Cobra' se hi kam chalan para ga .... 'taza maal' paroosi ke sawagt main kaam aye ga ....

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## IceCold

Paisa phank tamasha dekh. Even the mighty  cant say no to hard cash.


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## Manticore

*AH-1Z are *cleared for operating from Naval platforms, which gives them great operational advantage.

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## niaz

No matter how much you dislike the US, their military hardware is still unmatched. I am no military expert but what according to the published material; it is one hell of a combat helo. The deal would be under FMS programme; $952-million payment is probably spread out over quite a few years.

I respect the GHQ planners and am pretty sure that the decision was made after a great deal of analysis & diligence. US had initially declined our request for AH1-Z, probably Russian offer of MI-35, made the US change her mind.

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## trainer

WASHINGTON: The Pentagon has notified US Congress about the state department's approval of a military arms package worth nearly $1 billion for Pakistan, ostensibly in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations. 

The list of arms and armaments notified for possible sale by the Defence Security Cooperation Agency in its communication to Congress on Monday includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II missiles in containers, 32 T-700 GE 401C engines (30 installed and 2 spares) and 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target sight systems. 

The package also includes 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems, 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl, 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers, 15 joint mission planning systems, and 17 M197 20mm gun systems. 

The proposed sale "will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the US by helping to improve the security of a country vital to US foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the DSCA said in its notification, adding that the helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia. 

It also assured the Congress that the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region where the US has also emerged as a large arms supplier to India. 

Elaborating on the use of the arms package, the notification said the proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, it said, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. 

The sale, worth $952 million according to Pentagon estimates, is expected to go through without a hitch even though Pakistan lives a parlous, hand-to-mouth existence and US lawmakers and officials periodically vent their frustration about the country's two-timing, double-dealing ways in the war on terrorism and extremism. 

Many of the military contractors involved are constituents of lawmakers who prize the creation of jobs and maintaining it in their districts above all else. The principal contractors of the Pakistan package will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, General Electric in Lynn, The Boeing Company in Huntsville, and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland.


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## Zarvan

Imran Khan said:


> they will be backbone of PAA next 20 - 25 years sir or even more


To be backbone of Army we should have at least 30 of these



Manticore said:


> cleared for operating from Naval platforms, which give them great operational advantage.


This is new thing and good at least against enemy ships


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## S.U.R.B.

HRK said:


> yaap thats why I am saying they will serve our 'future need' ....
> 
> Talibans ke liya 'Basi Cobra' se hi kam chalan para ga .... 'taza maal' paroosi ke sawagt main kaam aye ga ....



If they get those 15 machines in time, it still looks like that Talibans will be used as the lab rats to get the idea about how the Zulus behave and stand.Gives your pilot the grooming environment before he is confident enough with out any nerves.They have to get through those moments before any other test arrives.

With 15 being the number, it's hard to fathom that we can skip on the Z-10 option.Z-10 carries a greater potential as far as the future development is concerned and the Chinese will be more than happy to provide us with any of the technical or infrastructural support than we may aim to acquire in future.

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## NKVD

@Manticore Is its coming with AN/Apg apg Mmr there is no mention of it anywhere or in Any source.


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## iioal malik

What a beauty many congrats Sick moves


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## Assault Rifle

@NKVD
Nope, no Longbow radars for Pakistan's Vipers. 
That's why Pakistan is getting AGM-114R only and not the AGM-114L which was specifically designed for Longbow radar equipped Helis.


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## Pinnacle

The Sale is under FMS program,So question remains still alive is it US funded or Pakistani Funded deal?


----------



## Basel

Dalit said:


> Not a good idea at all. Too expensive and we're relying on an unreliable supplier. There are better alternatives out there. There is a reason why the Yanks are suddenly so eager to sell attack choppers. These are the same Americans that were unwilling to sell any attack choppers to Pakistan before. Russia and China are willing to sell attack choppers.



I agree with your opinion, Pakistan should avoid those sanction able helicopters even if they are very advance because if sanctions are implemented those will be near to useless like our F-16s were in 90s.



Assault Rifle said:


> @NKVD
> Nope, no Longbow radars for Pakistan's Vipers.
> That's why Pakistan is getting AGM-114R only and not the AGM-114L which was specifically designed for Longbow radar equipped Helis.



Then Pakistan should go for other vendors because they can offer better weapons package with no threat of sanctions and possibly with TOT.



Donatello said:


> Again, ATAK would be very good, if US equipment was off limits......but since now the US has approved, that question is gone.
> So for the back bone, it would be WZ10 or ATAK.....whichever offers better performance/reliability/tailored systems.
> 
> Plus it is AH-1z a tested western system vs ATAK....we need to put helos in action today.......they are desperately needed.



If you want tested tech then Mi-28NE with MWR will be much better option then Zulus.


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## Imran Khan

Zarvan said:


> To be backbone of Army we should have at least 30 of these
> 
> 
> This is new thing and good at least against enemy ships


wait for next order bro


----------



## daring dude

*Pakistan seeks Viper attack helos, Hellfire missiles*
The U.S. Congress has been notified of a possible sale of helicopters and missiles to Pakistan for use in its counter-insurgency efforts.





























Pakistan is seeking AH-1Z attack helicopters and Hellfire missiles. Photo: U.S. Marine Corps


*State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal*

By Joe Gould and Usman Ansari

WASHINGTON — The US State Department has cleared a $952 million sale to Pakistan that includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announcement.

The sale is intended to support Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high-altitudes, according to DSCA's Monday announcement. Pakistan would use the gear in operations in the North Waziristan Agency, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement says.

The local Bell representatives in Pakistan, Access Zone, did not respond to queries regarding when they expected delivery should the deal be approved, or if they hoped more would be acquired to fully replace the approximately 48 Cobras currently in service.

Analysts in Pakistan expressed surprise at the announcement. Though the Viper had long been suggested as a replacement for the current fleet of AH-1F/S helicopter gunships, US congressional opposition seemed to make acquisition of further US equipment unlikely.

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, says he was "absolutely certain that the US would not supply any more attack helicopters."

But he welcomes the announcement.

"This is very good news for Pakistan on two counts: First, the Army is getting one of the most sophisticated attack helicopters in the world; second, it shows that the US has not abandoned Pakistan, as so many people thought it had," he said.

"It does require the assent of Congress," said Cloughley, "but if Congress were to block it this would send a negative message concerning its determination to keep up the war on terror."

This is not to say that unrestricted arms sales will resume as "it seems that the main criterion is that US-supplied materiel must be COIN [counterinsurgency] specific. There would be difficulty in providing systems that are obviously intended for general warfare, i.e. against India," Cloughley says.

Claude Rakisits, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's South Asia Center, said that "in its deliberations about whether to approve such a sale to Pakistan, the fact that the provision of this new capability will not alter the military balance between the two nuclear-armed states – Pakistan and India – will make it easier for the lawmakers to agree to this sale."

The announcement comes at a time when multiple types of helicopters are being pursued, both to replace the Cobras, and potentially support paramilitary and special forces operations.

Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that even though it is a small number, the Vipers could replace at least some of the Cobras and it comes at a time when China has supplied three WZ-10 gunships, and Russia may be close to supplying approximately 20 Mi-35 Hinds

Agence France-Press reported Friday that Pakistan has in recent weeks focused its fight against the Taliban on the Tirah Valley, a Federally Administered Tribal Area, with a series of air strikes and ground assaults. Though the area, with steep valleys and dense woods, is inaccessible, Pakistan's military has claimed it has taken control of key terrain there.





DEFENSE NEWS

Pakistan Holds Parade After 7-Year Break




Pakistan had sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace the Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies in and around the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In November, it appeared Pakistan was closing a deal for Mi-35 Hind heavy attack helicopters, based on a Pakistani radio interview with Russia's ambassador.

The US sale includes 32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems; 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe; 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems; 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets; 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers; 15 joint mission planning systems; and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.

Bell Helicopter, Textron, General Electric, Boeing and Lockheed Martin will be the principal contractors.

State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal


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## Mughal-Prince

Imran Khan said:


> it will make pakistan helicopters ki hera mandi



By going your logic hum Supplier bun jayen gay   LMAO. Khud kiflat ki janib aik aur qadam .

Apart from joking Imran this is an opportunity to grab even if we got only 18 to 24 Zulu's through which we may learn and may provide us some benchmark to achieve and exceed so with full TOT of ATAK as we have been offered and Z-10 availability may make us become virtually un-sanctionable in Hele Gunship and Light to medium transport if adopted with similar path like engine and subsystems commonality until we won't fu(ked up big time.

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## slapshot

Zarvan said:


> To be backbone of Army we should have at least 30 of these


Yeah 15 tu annay day yar! 30 bhe ho jain gay. At the moment these 15 are much needed for offensive against TTP.


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## Cheetah786

WASHINGTON: The US State Department has approved Pakistan’s request for a billion dollars worth of military hardware and equipment, identifying Pakistan as a country of vital importance for US foreign policy and national interests.

Diplomatic sources told Dawn Pakistan had submitted its request last year, stating that the weapons were needed for fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous regions.

The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.

“This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to US foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia,” the certification said.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia,” it added.

The agency informed US lawmakers that this proposed sale would provide Pakistan with “a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft” that it can operate at high-altitudes.

“By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan, Fata, and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces,” the certification said.

The agency also assured US lawmakers that the proposed sale “will not alter the basic military balance in the region”.

It informed Congress that the State Department had approved this possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million.

The notification said the government of Pakistan had requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Counter-measure Dispenser Sets, 18

AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, US government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and programme support.

The agency informed Congress that implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by US government and contractor representatives to participate in programme and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in the country for a period of 66 months.

It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in the country for a period of three years to support this programme.

“There will be no adverse impact on US defence readiness as a result of this proposed sale,” the certification said.

“The State Department approved a possible foreign military sale to Pakistan for helicopters and associated equipment, parts and support for an estimated cost of $952 million,” a State Department official told Dawn.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations,” the official said.

_Published in Dawn, April 8th, 2015_

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## Stealth

******** mandi of Helicopters LOL Mi 35, Z10, Cobra AH1Z, Cobra F/S, Bell 412, Bell UH, Euro Fennce, Mi17, Mi8 etc feel feel Supaaa powaaaa with 8+ growth LOLzzzzzzzzzzz 

8 Subs 
Further talk for western sub
4 Frigates
15 AH1Z
Z10 (Under testing)
Mi 35 (Deal btw)
Testing Norinco VT Tank
Nural

Mama boooooot paisa nahe agaya hamaray paas achanak

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## Mughal-Prince

slapshot said:


> Yeah 15 tu annay day yar! 30 bhe ho jain gay. At the moment these 15 are much needed for offensive against TTP.



Zaravan ki herkatain sahi nahin hain Ooh bhai juldi na ker tu 15 bhi murwa dey ga ... Bus jo bhi mil raha hai milnay dau pehlay yeh imdad main shift kerwa lain aik baar goray maan gaye hum phail jayen gay kay bhai hum tau 2 lain gay  Waisay kuch logon ki sahi hut gai ho gi   bay charay billions kharach rahay hain


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## Cheetah786

WASHINGTON — The US State Department has cleared a $952 million sale to Pakistan that includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announcement.

The sale is intended to support Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high-altitudes, according to DSCA's Monday announcement. Pakistan would use the gear in operations in the North Waziristan Agency, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement says.

The local Bell representatives in Pakistan, Access Zone, did not respond to queries regarding when they expected delivery should the deal be approved, or if they hoped more would be acquired to fully replace the approximately 48 Cobras currently in service.

Analysts in Pakistan expressed surprise at the announcement. Though the Viper had long been suggested as a replacement for the current fleet of AH-1F/S helicopter gunships, US congressional opposition seemed to make acquisition of further US equipment unlikely.

Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, says he was "absolutely certain that the US would not supply any more attack helicopters."

But he welcomes the announcement.

"This is very good news for Pakistan on two counts: First, the Army is getting one of the most sophisticated attack helicopters in the world; second, it shows that the US has not abandoned Pakistan, as so many people thought it had," he said.

"It does require the assent of Congress," said Cloughley, "but if Congress were to block it this would send a negative message concerning its determination to keep up the war on terror."

This is not to say that unrestricted arms sales will resume as "it seems that the main criterion is that US-supplied materiel must be COIN [counterinsurgency] specific. There would be difficulty in providing systems that are obviously intended for general warfare, i.e. against India," Cloughley says.

Claude Rakisits, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's South Asia Center, said that "in its deliberations about whether to approve such a sale to Pakistan, the fact that the provision of this new capability will not alter the military balance between the two nuclear-armed states – Pakistan and India – will make it easier for the lawmakers to agree to this sale."

The announcement comes at a time when multiple types of helicopters are being pursued, both to replace the Cobras, and potentially support paramilitary and special forces operations.

Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that even though it is a small number, the Vipers could replace at least some of the Cobras and it comes at a time when China has supplied three WZ-10 gunships, and Russia may be close to supplying approximately 20 Mi-35 Hinds

Agence France-Press reported Friday that Pakistan has in recent weeks focused its fight against the Taliban on the Tirah Valley, a Federally Administered Tribal Area, with a series of air strikes and ground assaults. Though the area, with steep valleys and dense woods, is inaccessible, Pakistan's military has claimed it has taken control of key terrain there.

Pakistan had sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace the Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies in and around the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In November, it appeared Pakistan was closing a deal for Mi-35 Hind heavy attack helicopters, based on a Pakistani radio interview with Russia's ambassador.

The US sale includes 32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems; 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe; 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems; 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets; 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers; 15 joint mission planning systems; and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.

Bell Helicopter, Textron, General Electric, Boeing and Lockheed Martin will be the principal contractors.

State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal

*US poised to sell nearly USD1 billion of attack helos, weapons to Pakistan*

The US Department of State has approved a request from Pakistan for USD952 million worth of attack helicopters and weapons for use in Islamabad's ongoing counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on 6 April.

Specifically, Pakistan has requested 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, including engines and spares, as well as 1000 AGM-114 Hellfire II Missiles and their targeting and communications systems.

"This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes," the DSCA said in a statement. "By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments."

The sale must still be approved by the US Congress.

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## Stealth

Areesh said:


> Bharatis getting solace from AH1Z won't be equipped with longbow radars. Such bharatis can also use old Indian method of masturbation in case if this doesn't comfort them.


Modi Criminal will teach them how to do.. like a old lol


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## Mughal-Prince

Basel said:


> I agree with your opinion, Pakistan should avoid those sanction able helicopters even if they are very advance because if sanctions are implemented those will be near to useless like our F-16s were in 90s.



We know how to handle these situations now so no worries and in current scenario sanctions wont work.



Basel said:


> Then Pakistan should go for other vendors because they can offer better weapons package with no threat of sanctions and possibly with TOT.



Sanction are rendered useless in current scenario so no need to worries about sanctions



Basel said:


> If you want tested tech then Mi-28NE with MWR will be much better option then Zulus.



We are on a shopping spree brah  don't worry yeh bhi aa jayen gay


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## Areesh

Stealth said:


> Modi Criminal will teach them how to do.. like a old lol



Obviously. Most on this forum are his tattoos anyways.


----------



## Golden Eagle 007

Cheetah786 said:


> WASHINGTON — The US State Department has cleared a $952 million sale to Pakistan that includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announcement.
> 
> The sale is intended to support Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high-altitudes, according to DSCA's Monday announcement. Pakistan would use the gear in operations in the North Waziristan Agency, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments.
> 
> "This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement says.
> 
> The local Bell representatives in Pakistan, Access Zone, did not respond to queries regarding when they expected delivery should the deal be approved, or if they hoped more would be acquired to fully replace the approximately 48 Cobras currently in service.
> 
> Analysts in Pakistan expressed surprise at the announcement. Though the Viper had long been suggested as a replacement for the current fleet of AH-1F/S helicopter gunships, US congressional opposition seemed to make acquisition of further US equipment unlikely.
> 
> Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, says he was "absolutely certain that the US would not supply any more attack helicopters."
> 
> But he welcomes the announcement.
> 
> "This is very good news for Pakistan on two counts: First, the Army is getting one of the most sophisticated attack helicopters in the world; second, it shows that the US has not abandoned Pakistan, as so many people thought it had," he said.
> 
> "It does require the assent of Congress," said Cloughley, "but if Congress were to block it this would send a negative message concerning its determination to keep up the war on terror."
> 
> This is not to say that unrestricted arms sales will resume as "it seems that the main criterion is that US-supplied materiel must be COIN [counterinsurgency] specific. There would be difficulty in providing systems that are obviously intended for general warfare, i.e. against India," Cloughley says.
> 
> Claude Rakisits, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's South Asia Center, said that "in its deliberations about whether to approve such a sale to Pakistan, the fact that the provision of this new capability will not alter the military balance between the two nuclear-armed states – Pakistan and India – will make it easier for the lawmakers to agree to this sale."
> 
> The announcement comes at a time when multiple types of helicopters are being pursued, both to replace the Cobras, and potentially support paramilitary and special forces operations.
> 
> Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that even though it is a small number, the Vipers could replace at least some of the Cobras and it comes at a time when China has supplied three WZ-10 gunships, and Russia may be close to supplying approximately 20 Mi-35 Hinds
> 
> Agence France-Press reported Friday that Pakistan has in recent weeks focused its fight against the Taliban on the Tirah Valley, a Federally Administered Tribal Area, with a series of air strikes and ground assaults. Though the area, with steep valleys and dense woods, is inaccessible, Pakistan's military has claimed it has taken control of key terrain there.
> 
> Pakistan had sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace the Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies in and around the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In November, it appeared Pakistan was closing a deal for Mi-35 Hind heavy attack helicopters, based on a Pakistani radio interview with Russia's ambassador.
> 
> The US sale includes 32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems; 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe; 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems; 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets; 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers; 15 joint mission planning systems; and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.
> 
> Bell Helicopter, Textron, General Electric, Boeing and Lockheed Martin will be the principal contractors.
> 
> State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal
> 
> *US poised to sell nearly USD1 billion of attack helos, weapons to Pakistan*
> 
> The US Department of State has approved a request from Pakistan for USD952 million worth of attack helicopters and weapons for use in Islamabad's ongoing counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on 6 April.
> 
> Specifically, Pakistan has requested 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, including engines and spares, as well as 1000 AGM-114 Hellfire II Missiles and their targeting and communications systems.
> 
> "This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes," the DSCA said in a statement. "By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments."
> 
> The sale must still be approved by the US Congress.


Are we going to use these engines i.e 32 T-700 GE 401C engines for Cobras?


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## Sinnerman108

@Viper0011. What are your views now ?

Russia ready to sell MI-35 helicopters to Pakistan: Alexey Y. Dedov


----------



## Cheetah786

Golden Eagle 007 said:


> Are we going to use these engines i.e 32 T-700 GE 401C engines for Cobras?



The T700-GE-401 and T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, rated in the 2,000-shaft-horsepower class, are significantly more powerful than the engines of other manufacture powering earlier models of the H-1 series helicopters. The T700-GE-401C that powers the UH-1Y is a newer, more capable version of the T700-GE-401, offering eight percent more power. The T700-GE-401C is under consideration to power the AH-1Z in addition to the UH-1Y.

The T700-GE-401 and T700-GE-401C engines, combined with a new four-blade main rotor system, significantly increase the AH-1Z and UH-1Y payload and range capabilities. Further, based on an overall 85 percent commonality between the UH-1Y and AH-1Z aircraft, the Marine Corps expects to save $3 billion in operating and support costs over the 30-year expected life of the aircraft.

My guess is and its totally a guess that these engines will be used to upgrade the older cobras.

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## Manticore

*I* was quite shocked that a mere 15 heli export news has forced some forum members on other fora to go through these complex emotions


*1. Denial and Isolation*
*2. Anger*
*3. Bargaining*
*4. Depression*

*I can post quotes for all the above stages of loss/grief but wont as they are other fora. I can just wish them speedy *

*5. Acceptance
*

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## Path-Finder

It is Like Indians are Americas Peo/Abba. Their Equipment they sell it to whom they want. We dont cry when they bought AH-64 so why are they crying!!


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## Arsalan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Realistically speaking .. We should go for Vipers aswell as upgraded Z-10s (Gives us a lot of flexibility - options for upgradation etc) !
> 
> 
> Screw the MI-35s.... T-129 is a dead deal.



Mi-35 is a totally different machine for a completely different intended role. Frankly, nothing comes close to Mi-35 for that particular role. There ability to carry troops in and out of battle field and provide them with air support that competes with that of any other attack helicopter. Comparing fire power the Mi-35 are as good as any other platform and the ability to carry troops is a plus. These if inducted will be the work horse of SGS airborne troops.


----------



## HRK

danish falcon said:


> The Sale is under FMS program,So question remains still alive is it US funded or Pakistani Funded deal?



most *probably* Pakistan will use CSF funds for this purchases NDAA has authoriesd $ 1 billion for 2015 (its all speculative)

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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> *I* was quite shocked that a mere 15 heli export news has forced some forum members on other fora to go through these complex emotions
> 
> 
> *1. Denial and Isolation*
> *2. Anger*
> *3. Bargaining*
> *4. Depression*
> 
> *I can post quotes for all the above stages of loss/grief but wont as they are other fora. I can just wish them speedy *
> 
> *5. Acceptance
> *


Indians are quite pissed of it is visible if you read their views on there defence forums


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## Areesh

NKVD said:


> Mmr is key difference
> Here With local made LCH in our hand we can add equivalent ammunition and sensors anytime.
> Also we can operate them in Large Numbers due to its indigenous Nature.
> 
> 15 helos that to from Us which has threat of embargo anytime
> You misuse them for gernal purpose even after paying 1 billion $
> 
> I say well played USA



Looks like the rant of someone who is in a shock. Who cares what you will do with your money. We are getting something which we weren't expecting. And we would use it as we would like to. Just like in the past.


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## volatile

Thing which interest more is acquisition of Engines .
32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems.32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe.

I have question from expert ,When we are procuring these heli`s do we have to buy whole package on base model like engine mission computer etc .Can they be used to MLU for cobra`s like f-16 saga ? confused by these number`s ,doesn't sum up for me.


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## Mughal-Prince

NKVD said:


> Mmr is key difference
> Here With local made LCH in our hand we can add equivalent ammunition and sensors anytime.
> Also we can operate them in Large Numbers due to its indigenous Nature.
> 
> 15 helos that to from Us which has threat of embargo anytime
> You misuse them for gernal purpose even after paying 1 billion $
> 
> I say well played USA



Aah seems some one got a hit on nerve  mentioned about MMR like deal been finalised after asking our beloved neighbours  and by the way keep your Indie-Geniousnes out of this thread as its about ZULU and not some cheap sh!t. We have many systems available to procure unlike earlier and we know how to manage during sanctions as most of the balongras has no idea how we manage our machines in the sky and over the ground while we were sanctioned so stop worrying about us and take a look at your big time fu(ked up project which are becoming irrelevant as time passes away we know our economics and we know how to handle all the crap which others throw at us. By the way we even juice out their crap and this time we are getting all new machines BRAND NEW  ...
And who's playing well is shown as we can read our neighbours are freaking out ...

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> These Helis will be used as they wish regardless of what story is spun.
> Really doesnt matter though, techically we maintain a balance between two Squabblers.. Keep India "Balanced", keep Pakistan "Balanced"(if there is any word for that country).. and Keep China from having total monopoly in Pakistan.. and make some money along the way.. Win Win!.
> 
> What most people in their anger forget, that when FMF is given out and US equipment is purchased.. technically that is money back in the coffer of the United States treasury and keeps keeps hundreds if not thousands of US families in employment. Call it a subsidy if you wish.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends upon the program office managing it but three years probably.



Is this being paid by FMF? I am not so sure......


----------



## DrWatson775

Stealth said:


> ******** mandi of Helicopters LOL Mi 35, Z10, Cobra AH1Z, Cobra F/S, Bell 412, Bell UH, Euro Fennce, Mi17, Mi8 etc feel feel Supaaa powaaaa with 8+ growth LOLzzzzzzzzzzz
> 
> 8 Subs
> Further talk for western sub
> 4 Frigates
> 15 AH1Z
> Z10 (Under testing)
> Mi 35 (Deal btw)
> Testing Norinco VT Tank
> Nural
> 
> Mama boooooot paisa nahe agaya hamaray paas achanak



Thank US FMF, Saudi 'loan', IMF, World Bank and General Sales Tax


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## Irfan Baloch

Víðarr said:


> Not just 15 helos!
> 
> *15 AH-1Z Viper* helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as *1,000 Hellfire* missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of *other communications and training equipment* with a total value of $952 million
> 
> That's a lot of firepower! Don't be sour; rejoice! Money well spent and put those new birds to use please.


American equipment is worth every penny
sometimes I think it is really a waste of time responding to clue less people who make snap judgements but I think you did the right thing by stating the obvious for the benefit of everyone.

no hardware item should be seen in isolation it is part of an entire system that make it operational and keep it running for a foreseeable future. the addition accessories that are part of the deal is what makes these VIPERS their names worth.

I am glad our relations are starting to go back to the level where Musharraf had left. Kyani/ Zardari era in terms of Pak -US relations was a disappointment and depressing.



shaheenmissile said:


> And you might be aware of the cost per hellfire?
> Just to blow up one mud house or kill a few talibunnies,too costly.
> We need something like Russian MI-35 to shove a few hundred cheap bullets up Talibunnies rear ends.


if you look up the still and video footage of the areas of operation then you will realise that its not just the Mud houses that Taliban use as a hiding and fighting place. we have had to call in air and artillery strikes to take out their bunkers in the mountains and boulders. 
I can assure you that our gunship pilots love the idea of spraying the 7.62mm rounds with their chain gun if they find big flock of terrorists gathered neatly in the middle of an empty and barren ground. but normally that doesnt happen.

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## Donatello

Manticore said:


> Lets keep this thread from getting derailed
> 
> Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions. | Page 85
> CHINA PROVIDED Z10 HELICOPTER TO PAKISTAN | Page 34
> 
> If a member says that pak hellfire missile isnt antitank, just guide him to this thread below without derailing any other thread.It has all the ''links''
> AGM-114R multi-purpose Hellfire II missile for Pakistani Vipers | Page 2



Why not just ban them?

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## Irfan Baloch

Viper0011. said:


> Not your rulers.....your generals to be precise!!! Quit blaming every fukup of everyone on to the rulers. Civilians don't give out a list of weapons to buy, the military does. The least you can do when you write, is to keep some honesty in your posts!! *You are obviously one of IK's propagandist, like him, you all lie shamelessly and for no reason!*
> 
> And by the way, its actually a good deal if you read into all details. A Viper-Z, is hell of an advanced combat helicopter. A close match to the Apaches.


I agree with your comments but you could have still able to post without the bolded part.
please avoid personal / political remarks in these discussions.
would you please edit your post?


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## NKVD

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Aah seems some one got a hit on nerve  mentioned about MMR like deal been finalised after asking our beloved neighbours  and by the way keep your Indie-Geniousnes out of this thread as its about ZULU and not some cheap sh!t. We have many systems available to procure unlike earlier and we know how to manage during sanctions as most of the balongras has no idea how we manage our machines in the sky and over the ground while we were sanctioned so stop worrying about us and take a look at your big time fu(ked up project which are becoming irrelevant as time passes away we know our economics and we know how handle all the crap which others through at us. By the way we even juice out their crap and this time we are getting all new machines BRAND NEW  ...
> And who's playing well is shown as we can read our neighbours are freaking out ...


What was technical point in your such big BS post 

Don't waste our time.


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## Kurlang

WASHINGTON: The US State Department has approved Pakistan’s request for a billion dollars worth of military hardware and equipment, identifying Pakistan as a country of vital importance for US foreign policy and national interests.

Diplomatic sources told Dawn Pakistan had submitted its request last year, stating that the weapons were needed for fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous regions.

The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.

_Take a look: Saudi Arabia becomes top arms importer_

“This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to US foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia,” the certification said.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia,” it added.

The agency informed US lawmakers that this proposed sale would provide Pakistan with “a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft” that it can operate at high-altitudes.

“By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan, Fata, and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces,” the certification said.

The agency also assured US lawmakers that the proposed sale “will not alter the basic military balance in the region”.

*It informed Congress that the State Department had approved this possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million.

The notification said the government of Pakistan had requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Counter-measure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.*

Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, US government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and programme support.

The agency informed Congress that implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by US government and contractor representatives to participate in programme and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in the country for a period of 66 months.

It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in the country for a period of three years to support this programme.

“There will be no adverse impact on US defence readiness as a result of this proposed sale,” the certification said.

“The State Department approved a possible foreign military sale to Pakistan for helicopters and associated equipment, parts and support for an estimated cost of $952 million,” a State Department official told Dawn.

“This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations,” the official said.

_Published in Dawn, April 8th, 2015_


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## Mughal-Prince

NKVD said:


> What was technical point in your such big BS post



A Rant for a Rant but sensible in nature and explained wisely absolutely above your level and you are unable to comprehend as your reply shows.



NKVD said:


> Don't waste our time.



Aahhaa  who the hell I am to wast your time ?? In fact you yourself wasting your time posting NOTHING BUT HORSE SH!T and asking for technical points in reply what a retard .

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## araz

Cheetah786 said:


> The T700-GE-401 and T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, rated in the 2,000-shaft-horsepower class, are significantly more powerful than the engines of other manufacture powering earlier models of the H-1 series helicopters. The T700-GE-401C that powers the UH-1Y is a newer, more capable version of the T700-GE-401, offering eight percent more power. The T700-GE-401C is under consideration to power the AH-1Z in addition to the UH-1Y.
> 
> The T700-GE-401 and T700-GE-401C engines, combined with a new four-blade main rotor system, significantly increase the AH-1Z and UH-1Y payload and range capabilities. Further, based on an overall 85 percent commonality between the UH-1Y and AH-1Z aircraft, the Marine Corps expects to save $3 billion in operating and support costs over the 30-year expected life of the aircraft.
> 
> My guess is and its totally a guess that these engines will be used to upgrade the older cobras.



They specifically use the word 30 installed with 2 spares. I think it is just the way they are describing the product.I maybe wrong but 8 think this is what the confusion is.
Araz


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## Areesh

15 AH1Z and 1000 Hellfire missiles have already done their job. A lot of bharati rat's as$ is on fire at Bharat Rickshaw forum.

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## cabatli_53

Imran Khan said:


> *Defense Security Cooperation Agency *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ASHINGTON, Apr 6, 2015 – The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $952 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale.
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of *15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. *Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $952 million.
> 
> This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia.
> 
> This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia.
> 
> This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces.
> 
> The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
> 
> The principal contractors will be Bell Helicopter, Textron in Fort Worth, Texas; General Electric in Lynn, Massachusetts; The Boeing Company in Huntsville, Alabama; and Lockheed Martin in Bethesda, Maryland. There are no known offset agreements proposed in conjunction with this potential sale.
> 
> Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips by U.S. Government and contractor representatives to participate in program and technical reviews, as well as training and maintenance support in country for a period of 66 months. It will also require three contractor representatives to reside in country for a period of three years to support this program.
> 
> There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
> 
> This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
> 
> All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.
> 
> -30-
> 
> 
> its great official sir jee
> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> 
> 
> here is PDF file
> http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/pakistan_15-05.pdf




I didn't see any sentence regarding 2,75 inch guided missile permission on DSCA. I think If This deal take place, Pakistan will certainly need a 70mm missile system to be perfectly suited on COIN operations instead of using an expensive missile system like HellFire on moving soft targets and There are a few solution in that missile sector.

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## My-Analogous

Stephen Cohen said:


> Pakistan - AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters and AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> AGM-114R Hellfire II Missiles have utility against terrorists NOT against TANKS



It is multipurpose missile and can be used against Tanks also and it replace all previous variants of hell fire

The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout. The Army is currently only purchasing this variant.

AGM-114 Hellfire Missile | Variants, AGM-114R, Budget/Costs, Specs



Donatello said:


> "The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout. The Army is currently only purchasing this variant. "
> 
> From:-
> AGM-114 Hellfire Missile | Variants, AGM-114R, Budget/Costs, Specs
> 
> 
> 
> More information here:
> AGM-114 Hellfire II Missile - Army Technology
> 
> In short
> Hellfire Romeo is a one stop missile for all types of ground targets, anti-armor or anti-talbunnies. US army will only purchase and consolidate this version in their fleet.



Sorry mate i didn't know that you already answer that


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Horus said:


> Repeating the lesson again
> 
> 
> Mi-35s are NOT for the Army, they most likely will be used by Special Forces as Airborne assault element.
> 
> Z-10 is under evaluation, 3 of them are already in Pakistan and if their trials are successful they'll replace our old Cobras
> *15 AH-1Z Vipers deal is 'done'* by the looks of it & it will be provide the high tech element in our attack heli line up.
> However, i must say that i am VERY surprised at this deal, i must admit that i didn't see this one coming.


will those be bought with our money or american ? but if its our money then why did not we go with T-129s ?


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## Kompromat

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> will those be bought with our money or american ? but if its our money then why did not we go with T-129s ?



If US has cleared the sale of AH-1Z it means they refused to clear the engines for T-129 

@cabatli_53

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Horus said:


> If US has cleared the sale of AH-1Z it means they refused to clear the engines for T-129
> 
> @cabatli_53


bro.,my 2 questions still remains unanswered ...


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## Donatello

cabatli_53 said:


> I didn't see any sentence regarding 2,75 inch guided missile permission on DSCA. I think If This deal take place, Pakistan will certainly need a 70mm missile system to be perfectly suited on COIN operations instead of using an expensive missile system like HellFire on moving soft targets and There are a few solution in that missile sector.



Can these be readily integrated on the AH-1Zs?



Horus said:


> If US has cleared the sale of AH-1Z it means they refused to clear the engines for T-129
> 
> @cabatli_53



Do you know, this is interesting, since USA has approved an entire bucket load of offensive package, why would they block the engines if needed? Unless they want Pakistan to purchase an All American Attack helo fleet......we still need 40-50 attack helos.....that would be T-129 or Z-10....and that is going to be a tough balancing act to keep both our friends happy. USA, has smartly thrown us in a dilemma.


Bhai when are we getting a Turkish flag for the forum?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Can these be readily integrated on the AH-1Zs?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know, this is interesting, since USA has approved an entire bucket load of offensive package, why would they block the engines if needed? Unless they want Pakistan to purchase an All American Attack helo fleet......we still need 40-50 attack helos.....that would be T-129 or Z-10....and that is going to be a tough balancing act to keep both our friends happy. USA, has smartly thrown us in a dilemma.
> 
> 
> Bhai when are we getting a Turkish flag for the forum?



Do you think USA would be able to get the permissions of letting Pakistan have 40-50 AH-1Z's without losing on the Apache deal with the Indian's. As it is most likely the Indian's would not buy the Apache because they know that it is similar or may be slightly more advance to the AH-64E Block III's they are trying to get along with the Chinook's. 

They would have to also provide assurance to the parliament regarding their ability to some how restrict Pakistan access to the Spares which is not so easy. In an earlier post I read that it would be possible for PAA to maintain these new Zulu's for 15 to 20 years easily.


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## Donatello

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do you think USA would be able to get the permissions of letting Pakistan have 40-50 AH-1Z's without losing on the Apache deal with the Indian's. As it is most likely the Indian's would not buy the Apache because they know that it is similar or may be slightly more advance to the AH-64E Block III's they are trying to get along with the Chinook's.
> 
> They would have to also provide assurance to the parliament regarding their ability to some how restrict Pakistan access to the Spares which is not so easy. In an earlier post I read that it would be possible for PAA to maintain these new Zulu's for 15 to 20 years easily.



Indian deal has been in the making for a long time....USA still approved the Zulus regardless. I am not so sure if Pakistan would want an all American fleet of attack helos, when other options are clearly available....but 1000 Hellfires is a lot of missiles.....just like Pakistan ordered 500 AIM120s for the F-16s.......maybe Pakistan wants to place a follow on order......like ex-Jordanian F-16s. About spares, just order a lot of them.....and above all make sure your relations don't go south. (OBL was perhaps the worst that could happen)

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## ACE OF THE AIR

@cabatli_53

When are the Turkish going to replace the US engine for the ATAK's so that they are able to export them without asking for approvals and actually have some competitor for the Ah-1z 's.



Donatello said:


> Indian deal has been in the making for a long time....USA still approved the Zulus regardless. I am not so sure if Pakistan would want an all American fleet of attack helos, when other options are clearly available....but 1000 Hellfires is a lot of missiles.....just like Pakistan ordered 500 AIM120s for the F-16s.......maybe Pakistan wants to place a follow on order......like ex-Jordanian F-16s. About spares, just order a lot of them.....and above all make sure your relations don't go south. (OBL was perhaps the worst that could happen)


Agreed.
Pakistan might be thinking they were always handicapped with weapons during war but what about the spares they are also important as was seen during the 71 war. So far the spares that are going to come are going to be installed with the exception of a few engines.

Any news on sidewinders for the Zulus because we are only seeing & discussing 1000 Hellfires.


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## Donatello

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @cabatli_53
> 
> When are the Turkish going to replace the US engine for the ATAK's so that they are able to export them without asking for approvals and actually have some competitor for the Ah-1z 's.
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> Pakistan might be thinking they were always handicapped with weapons during war but what about the spares they are also important as was seen during the 71 war. So far the spares that are going to come are what are going to be installed with the exception of a few engines.
> 
> Any news on sidewinders for the Zulus because we are only seeing & discussing 1000 Hellfires.



Plenty of Sidewinders available.....but more can be procured....nothing high tech there.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Plenty of Sidewinders available.....but more can be procured....nothing high tech there.


Remember those are for PAF and paid by their budget. 
PAA does not have the ability to fire Sidewinders from the existing Cobra's right?


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## ArsalanKhan21

Pakistan has urgent need for attack helicopters.

US Filling Saudi Munition Holes | China, South Korea Talk Arms Control THAAD’s Shadow | Airbus Seeks Indian Partner

*US Filling Saudi Munition Holes | China, South Korea Talk Arms Control in THAAD’s Shadow | Airbus Seeks Indian Partner*
Apr 07, 2015 00:28 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
*America*

Rockwell Collins was awarded a $495 million contract Tuesday for software and system integration on the Army’s helicopters, with a portion of these services earmarked for foreign sales. The company was also awarded a $8.1 million modification for the Common Avionics Architecture System to equip CH-47F helos.
In further good news for Rockwell Collins, the company will supply 44 Communication Navigation Surveillance/Air Traffic Management systems for the KC-10 tanker fleet, following a similar contract in August.
The US is ramping up arms transfer to the Saudis, media reported Tuesday, with munitions high on the list of requirements. The assistance is being allocated through a Joint Planning Cell with the Saudis.
*Europe*

The European Defence Agency announced new funding for dual-use technologies , releasing a Request for Projects notice Tuesday.
Turkey is looking to speed up its development of a conceptual trainer aircraft, to be designed and built domestically. The new trainer will be specifically designed to train pilots to use new fighters procured through the indigenous TF-X program , with a RFI for this program released last month.
*Asia*

_*Pakistan wants to buy fifteen AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, gun systems, 1000 Hellfire II missiles and other equipment through a possible FMS . The cost? $952 million. The State Department has green-lit the deal, with the potential sale going to Congress.*_
India will not sign its stalled multi-billion Rafale contract with Dassault until the French company agrees to what the Indian government says was the original pricing structure for the deal. The drawn-out MMRCA program has seen multiple disputes between the Indian Defense Ministry and Dassault, with the Indians threatening to walk away from the deal in January. Although this may be simply bluster, the Russian vultures are circling, ready to supply the SU-30 fighter if the Rafale deal falls through.
China and South Korea are to hold arms control talks this week , an interesting development given the recent tension over US plans to base THAAD interceptors in South Korea to complement the existing jointly-operated Aegis/Patriot systems.
According to Japanese media , Indonesia is contemplating buying the US-2 amphibious plane, the same design India is currently in talks with Japan over.
Airbus is reportedly in talks with six Indian defense contractors in an effort to find a domestic company to reply to a $2 billion naval helicopter RFI, with Indian procurement regulation allowing only an Indian company to respond.

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## denel

go with china...


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## niaz

araz said:


> They specifically use the word 30 installed with 2 spares. I think it is just the way they are describing the product.I maybe wrong but 8 think this is what the confusion is.
> Araz




I am also a bit confused. AH-1Z is a twin engined helo. Thus 15 helos need 30, the 2 extra being spares. Does it imply that the deal is 15 frames plus 32 engines? One would have assumed that when you buy a helicopter, it would be in flying condition.

Per the link below 12 birds cost 428.6-millions or about $35.72-million each or almost as much as an F-16C-52.
This means that 15 AH-1Z will cost about $536-million. It is no doubt very expensive but at least on paper; it is definitely a very competent fighting machine.

Bell AH-1Z Viper | Info, Upgrade, Avionics, Budget/Costs, Specs


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## Indus Falcon

niaz said:


> I am also a bit confused. AH-1Z is a twin engined helo. Thus 15 helos need 30, the 2 extra being spares. Does it imply that the deal is 15 frames plus 32 engines? One would have assumed that when you buy a helicopter, it would be in flying condition.
> 
> Per the link below 12 birds cost 428.6-millions or about $35.72-million each or almost as much as an F-16C-52.
> This means that 15 AH-1Z will cost about $536-million. It is no doubt very expensive but at least on paper; it is definitely a very competent fighting machine.
> 
> Bell AH-1Z Viper | Info, Upgrade, Avionics, Budget/Costs, Specs


You are right. It implies exactly what you said: 15 airframes + 32 engines. 

It will be in flying condition, but when notifications are sent out, this is how it is broken down.


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## Kompromat

niaz said:


> I am also a bit confused. AH-1Z is a twin engined helo. Thus 15 helos need 30, the 2 extra being spares. Does it imply that the deal is 15 frames plus 32 engines? One would have assumed that when you buy a helicopter, it would be in flying condition.
> 
> Per the link below 12 birds cost 428.6-millions or about $35.72-million each or almost as much as an F-16C-52.
> This means that 15 AH-1Z will cost about $536-million. It is no doubt very expensive but at least on paper; it is definitely a very competent fighting machine.
> 
> Bell AH-1Z Viper | Info, Upgrade, Avionics, Budget/Costs, Specs



Sir it also includes 1000 Hellfire - II missiles and associated training, parts and support.

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## airmarshal

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do you think USA would be able to get the permissions of letting Pakistan have 40-50 AH-1Z's without losing on the Apache deal with the Indian's. As it is most likely the Indian's would not buy the Apache because they know that it is similar or may be slightly more advance to the AH-64E Block III's they are trying to get along with the Chinook's.
> 
> They would have to also provide assurance to the parliament regarding their ability to some how restrict Pakistan access to the Spares which is not so easy. In an earlier post I read that it would be possible for PAA to maintain these new Zulu's for 15 to 20 years easily.



Indians are dealing with Americans and Americans dont get arm twisted. Take it or leave it.



niaz said:


> I am also a bit confused. AH-1Z is a twin engined helo. Thus 15 helos need 30, the 2 extra being spares. Does it imply that the deal is 15 frames plus 32 engines? One would have assumed that when you buy a helicopter, it would be in flying condition.
> 
> Per the link below 12 birds cost 428.6-millions or about $35.72-million each or almost as much as an F-16C-52.
> This means that 15 AH-1Z will cost about $536-million. It is no doubt very expensive but at least on paper; it is definitely a very competent fighting machine.
> 
> Bell AH-1Z Viper | Info, Upgrade, Avionics, Budget/Costs, Specs



Vow! Thats expensive and I think to maintain it will also be expensive. That could be the reason for a smaller order.


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## Donatello

niaz said:


> I am also a bit confused. AH-1Z is a twin engined helo. Thus 15 helos need 30, the 2 extra being spares. Does it imply that the deal is 15 frames plus 32 engines? One would have assumed that when you buy a helicopter, it would be in flying condition.
> 
> Per the link below 12 birds cost 428.6-millions or about $35.72-million each or almost as much as an F-16C-52.
> This means that 15 AH-1Z will cost about $536-million. It is no doubt very expensive but at least on paper; it is definitely a very competent fighting machine.
> 
> Bell AH-1Z Viper | Info, Upgrade, Avionics, Budget/Costs, Specs



If i am not mistaken, the engines are a big part of the attack helo, aircraft etc....and they are made by a different manufacturer, not by Bell. So i think they said 32 engines to indicate which manufacturer would be dealing with the sales. It actually states, that 32 engines, 30 installed and 2 spares. Parts and components will be coming from different contractors and hence their US state of origin is also mentioned, probably for Congress guidelines.

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## mughaljee

Brother's, 
So Simple, 
Apache deal with the Indian's is going to final, 
this is why they are offering to us this copter,


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## Stealth

mughaljee said:


> Brother's,
> So Simple,
> Apache deal with the Indian's is going to final,
> this is why they are offering to us this copter,



Nope.... put pressure on Indians to buy Apache lol

Laughing like hell... visited few forums... and saw some posts where Indians are burning like "maa mar gaye hai ana deee" lol

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## gangsta_rap

Terrible decision. I was hoping for Havocs instead.


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## ashok321

QUOTE:

"This proposed sale of helicopters and weapons systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism operations inside the country," State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf told media persons.

"They are for internal counter-terrorism uses inside Pakistan -- so to be very clear about that, going after terrorists inside their own country," she said.

_"We obviously have many ways of monitoring how weapons we sell to any country are used in terms of end use and how we monitor that. That’s obviously something we care very deeply about," Harf said when asked whether the US is confident that Pakistan is going to use the aid for the purposes in which it is being sold and not against India.

"Do you trust the Pakistanis?" she was asked. "This isn't about trust. This is about being able to see where our weapons go, see what they’re used for, and that’s something we are confident we are able to do," she said._


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## Golden Eagle 007

NKVD said:


> What was technical point in your such big BS post
> 
> Don't waste our time.


if you dont want to waste your time then "GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE". period


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Horus said:


> FMS


but with fms we could have bought t129 or havoc


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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> Nope.... put pressure on Indians to buy Apache lol
> 
> Laughing like hell... visited few forums... and saw some posts where Indians are burning like "maa mar gaye hai ana deee" lol


I agree I am also reading there comments on there forums they are quite angry and pissed if


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## Basel

Donatello said:


> Plenty of Sidewinders available.....but more can be procured....nothing high tech there.



Its true but one can only integrate missile which vendor allows.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do you think USA would be able to get the permissions of letting Pakistan have 40-50 AH-1Z's without losing on the Apache deal with the Indian's. As it is most likely the Indian's would not buy the Apache because they know that it is similar or may be slightly more advance to the AH-64E Block III's they are trying to get along with the Chinook's.
> 
> They would have to also provide assurance to the parliament regarding their ability to some how restrict Pakistan access to the Spares which is not so easy. In an earlier post I read that it would be possible for PAA to maintain these new Zulu's for 15 to 20 years easily.



Can you please tell us what edge it has over AH-64E? US is not selling MWR and that is very important system in modern attack helicopters.


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## Stealth

ashok321 said:


> QUOTE:
> 
> "This proposed sale of helicopters and weapons systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism operations inside the country," State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf told media persons.
> 
> "They are for internal counter-terrorism uses inside Pakistan -- so to be very clear about that, going after terrorists inside their own country," she said.
> 
> _"We obviously have many ways of monitoring how weapons we sell to any country are used in terms of end use and how we monitor that. That’s obviously something we care very deeply about," Harf said when asked whether the US is confident that Pakistan is going to use the aid for the purposes in which it is being sold and not against India.
> 
> "Do you trust the Pakistanis?" she was asked. "This isn't about trust. This is about being able to see where our weapons go, see what they’re used for, and that’s something we are confident we are able to do," she said._



LOL tatoo and you think in case of war Pakistan will not use these weapons against India ? LOL @ your sense don't know how to get 2000 likes ... definitely from those who have same mental problem lol

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## AnnoyingOrange

Stealth said:


> LOL tatoo and you think in case of war Pakistan will not use these weapons against India ? LOL @ your sense don't know how to get 2000 likes ... definitely from those who have same mental problem lol


LOL... you think Pakistani Leadership has balls to go to war against India at this time? 
Abhi toh sale approve hui hai.pata nahi kab Pkaistan order dega...kab Missiles ayaingi....
Ghar main nahi dane...amma chali bhunane.


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## Stealth

AnnoyingOrange said:


> LOL... you think Pakistani Leadership has balls to go to war against India at this time?
> Abhi toh sale approve hui hai.pata nahi kab Pkaistan order dega...kab Missiles ayaingi....
> Ghar main nahi dane...amma chali bhunane.



According to your own country "Pakistan always start war" so balls kiskay hain aur khoon khasi ? LOLzz

Secondly woh Surgical Strikes nahe ayeen abhe tak ??? wait he kar rahay hain 2011 say lol... so who has balls ENUFFF SAID KID!

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## ashok321

Stealth said:


> LOL tatoo and you think in case of war Pakistan will not use these weapons against India ? LOL @ your sense don't know how to get 2000 likes ... definitely from those who have same mental problem lol



Do it then talk.
Right now its pure speculation.


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## ashok321

@Stealth 
_According to your own country "Pakistan always start war"_

Yes.
And according to the world, it gets divided into two - A la 1971.


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## Stealth

ashok321 said:


> @Stealth
> _According to your own country "Pakistan always start war"_
> 
> Yes.
> And according to the world, it gets divided into two - A la 1971.



According to India and world is not India LOL filhaal aur chuppooo hahhaha kaka *** burning lol


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## krash

AnnoyingOrange said:


> LOL... you think Pakistani Leadership has balls to go to war against India at this time?



I doubt if it's Pakistan that needs to prove anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but Pakistan has always stood by the claim of being a defensive force with minimal deterrence as its modus operandi. India on the other hand has beaten the war drums at least twice (2001-02 & 2008) and then eaten them....wonder if you can import a pair from Russia/Israel/France? It was hilarious when in 2008 India requested the US to ask Pakistan to allow surgical strikes  Then came the US cable leaks of how the Indian government was afraid of Pakistan's response. Its all here on this forum.



ashok321 said:


> QUOTE:
> 
> "This proposed sale of helicopters and weapons systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counter-terrorism operations inside the country," State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf told media persons.
> 
> "They are for internal counter-terrorism uses inside Pakistan -- so to be very clear about that, going after terrorists inside their own country," she said.
> 
> _"We obviously have many ways of monitoring how weapons we sell to any country are used in terms of end use and how we monitor that. That’s obviously something we care very deeply about," Harf said when asked whether the US is confident that Pakistan is going to use the aid for the purposes in which it is being sold and not against India.
> 
> "Do you trust the Pakistanis?" she was asked. "This isn't about trust. This is about being able to see where our weapons go, see what they’re used for, and that’s something we are confident we are able to do," she said._



I have a question for you. Do you believe that Pakistan would spend a billion bucks on attack helis which it can't ever use against India? Be honest.

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## salarsikander

Fawad Mahsud said:


> I dont know anything about zUlu, why dont you tell me ??
> And who is kid ?? lol ,Do you know what it means ?? if in case you dont know then it would be better to google it before you reply !


Hi, Perhaps a bit of research before blabbing could have really helped you, dont you think ?


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## cabatli_53

Horus said:


> If US has cleared the sale of AH-1Z it means they refused to clear the engines for T-129
> 
> @cabatli_53



It is known that Turkey and Pakistan agreed on many points regarding the sale of T-129 Atak helicopters. According to frame agreement(What I understood), TAI would allow Pakistan to produce some parts of body along with general assembly line of Atak. The parts manufactured by Pakistan, will be ordered by TAI, When A new export deal is signed (For example Bahrain). With this way, Pakistan would have been considered as international Atak producer along with TAI. 

Recent days, PM didn't give a country name but mentioned as our so called ally not allow engine export to a country When We agreed to make a deal. Most probably, He was talking about Atak and Pakistan.

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## Bratva

cabatli_53 said:


> Recent days, PM didn't give a country name but mentioned as our so called ally not allow engine export to a country When We agreed to make a deal. Most probably, He was talking about Atak and Pakistan.



Any source for that ?


----------



## cabatli_53

Basel said:


> Its true but one can only integrate missile which vendor allows.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please tell us what edge it has over AH-64E? US is not selling MWR and that is very important system in modern attack helicopters.



As you said, An attack helicopter without MWR will cause risking copter in hot war zones. They are expensive sensors indeed but vital in current war zones. Aselsan can easily provide MWR sensors to Pakistan but I don't suppose USA will allow Pakistan to modify even screws of their new developed state of art attack helicopters. Most probably, Periodic maintenance activities are going to be carried out by Bell engineers. 

Those are What Aselsan paid for development/production.

-360 pcs Aselsan MWR desin/development/production: *193,526,200 Euro *
-340 pcs EWCMS(Electronic warfare counter measure system) and 77150 munition (FG-3,FG-6 and CG-17)(Aselsan outsourced MKEK): *122,466,848 USD *
-217 RWR, 143 RFJ, 217 LWR, 217 SCPU EWCMS design development production: *485, 561,998 USD.





*

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## SipahSalar

AnnoyingOrange said:


> LOL... you think Pakistani Leadership has balls to go to war against India at this time?
> Abhi toh sale approve hui hai.pata nahi kab Pkaistan order dega...kab Missiles ayaingi....
> Ghar main nahi dane...amma chali bhunane.


Of course. Pakistan is not afraid to go to war whenever a threat arises.


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## cabatli_53

Bratva said:


> Any source for that ?




I will try to find it...


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

salarsikander said:


> Hi, Perhaps a bit of research before blabbing could have really helped you, dont you think ?



- Who is Zulu man ?? 
You asked me so i Google it and you want to know the result ?? 

1) A member of a South African people traditionally living mainly in KwaZulu-Natal province.
2) A code word representing the letter Z, used in radio communication.
3) relating to the Zulus or their language.


----------



## salarsikander

Fawad Mahsud said:


> - Who is Zulu man ??
> You asked me so i Google it and you want to know the result ??
> 
> 1) A member of a South African people traditionally living mainly in KwaZulu-Natal province.
> 2) A code word representing the letter Z, used in radio communication.
> 3) relating to the Zulus or their language.


Hi, 
It is better for you join some local evening comic club. You mental level suggests that youre far too behind to handle the stuff that goes around here

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## ArsalanKhan21

ashok321 said:


> "They are for internal counter-terrorism uses inside Pakistan -- so to be very clear about that, going after terrorists inside their own country," she said.



Exactly. Pakistan Army uses muscle power to kill its own citizens whether it is East Pakistan, Balochistan and in KPK. Pakistan Army created Taliban now the same people have joined the terrorist outfits inside Pakistan.

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## خره مينه لګته وي

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> It is better for you join some local evening comic club. You mental level suggests that youre far too behind to handle the stuff that goes around here



So that is the answer of my question ?? 
Well, if you cant answer what i ask then why you bother to reply ??
- If i dont know something then maybe there could be some reasons...Any way thanks for you precious time


----------



## salarsikander

Fawad Mahsud said:


> So that is the answer of my question ??
> Well, if you cant answer what i ask then why you bother to reply ??
> - If i dont know something then maybe there could be some reasons...Any way thanks for you precious time


Hi, 

I understand your knowledge is limited to lollypop and bubble gum, so its useless to answer you silly question.

Its far more easier to go through the pages where the details have been shared of Viper cobra rather than asking silly questions and making *** of yourself. pity


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> 
> I understand your knowledge is limited to lollypop and bubble gum, making *** of yourself. pity



If you cant behave accordingly then keep this sh*t to ur self no need to cross limits and next time mind your own business instead of Acting like a A$$ h%le wide open..

@Stealth Accept my apologies


----------



## salarsikander

Fawad Mahsud said:


> If you cant behave accordingly then keep this sh*t to ur self no need to cross limits and next time mind your own business instead of Acting like a A$$ h%le wide open..
> 
> @Stealth Accept my apologies


Hi, 

a weaker arguments requires personal attack, Truly a pitiful situation


----------



## RAMPAGE

cabatli_53 said:


> It is known that Turkey and Pakistan agreed on many points regarding the sale of T-129 Atak helicopters. According to frame agreement(What I understood), TAI would allow Pakistan to produce some parts of body along with general assembly line of Atak. The parts manufactured by Pakistan, will be ordered by TAI, When A new export deal is signed (For example Bahrain). With this way, Pakistan would have been considered as international Atak producer along with TAI.
> 
> Recent days, PM didn't give a country name but mentioned as our so called ally not allow engine export to a country When We agreed to make a deal. Most probably, He was talking about Atak and Pakistan.


No other engines we can go with?


----------



## Wolf

Fawad Mahsud said:


> If you cant behave accordingly then keep this sh*t to ur self no need to cross limits and next time mind your own business instead of Acting like a A$$ h%le wide open..
> 
> @Stealth Accept my apologies


We pakistanis are at their very best in fighting among ourselves by dragging our egos 2 far. I request all to save your energies for a cause rather than wasting on in fighting

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## cabatli_53

RAMPAGE said:


> No other engines we can go with?



It requires new modifications, certifications, trials, new design, extra budget...etc 
Not cost effective...


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## SQ8

Here is some interesting food for thought(chew on it a bit):
Pakistan wanted AH-1Zs and eventually had to settle for Z-10s.. suddenly the Zulus are approved.. just about the same time that Pakistan is about to agree to the Yemen coalition..
Something called lobbying the US congress that other countries are good at.

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## Tameem

Oscar said:


> Here is some interesting food for thought(chew on it a bit):
> Pakistan wanted AH-1Zs and eventually had to settle for Z-10s.. suddenly the Zulus are approved.. just about the same time that Pakistan is about to agree to the Yemen coalition..
> Something called lobbying the US congress that other countries are good at.



Who says we are agreed to Yemen Coalition....stop speculation.


----------



## Zarvan

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Exactly. Pakistan Army uses muscle power to kill its own citizens whether it is East Pakistan, Balochistan and in KPK. Pakistan Army created Taliban now the same people have joined the terrorist outfits inside Pakistan.


First go and get your facts right


----------



## SipahSalar

Oscar said:


> Here is some interesting food for thought(chew on it a bit):
> Pakistan wanted AH-1Zs and eventually had to settle for Z-10s.. suddenly the Zulus are approved.. just about the same time that Pakistan is about to agree to the Yemen coalition..
> Something called lobbying the US congress that other countries are good at.


But the USA is very very neutral on Yemen. Don't believe their statements. They are mum about their role in the coalition, their only contribution being rescue of pilots.


----------



## SQ8

Tameem said:


> Who says we are agreed to Yemen Coalition....stop speculation.



Anybody's saying has nothing to do with incentives being offered. There is NO need to stop speculation on what is essentially an issue of national independence; is Pakistan a lackey for the Saudis under the current leadership or does it now have independence of decision.



SipahSalar said:


> But the USA is very very neutral on Yemen. Don't believe their statements. They are mum about their role in the coalition, their only *contribution being rescue of pilots*.


And aerial refuelling support,
And speeding up weapons deliveries, 
And providing advisers 
And providing intelligence

And none of this is "mum", its pretty open.


----------



## Tameem

Oscar said:


> Anybody's saying has nothing to do with incentives being offered. There is NO need to stop speculation on what is essentially an issue of national independence; is Pakistan a lackey for the Saudis under the current leadership or does it now have independence of decision.



Look dear, you might be military genius but extremely naive politically. Ns will never ever would take this decision by his own, even if he is wanted to by heart.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

cabatli_53 said:


> It requires new modifications, certifications, trials, new design, extra budget...etc
> Not cost effective...


In other words you are saying it is better for PAA to go for a Chinese Light Attack Heli ?


----------



## It.is.all.mudi's.fault

Manticore said:


> *I* was quite shocked that a mere 15 heli export news has forced some forum members on other fora to go through these complex emotions
> 
> 
> *1. Denial and Isolation*
> *2. Anger*
> *3. Bargaining*
> *4. Depression*
> 
> *I can post quotes for all the above stages of loss/grief but wont as they are other fora. I can just wish them speedy *
> 
> *5. Acceptance*




Seriously, You people need to pipe down. You are buying *just* 15 Helis, not 150,hence no Indian is interested to harangue with Pakistanis on this.

They pretty much have zero consequences for Indian Army.


----------



## SQ8

Tameem said:


> Look dear, you might be military genius but extremely naive politically. Ns will never ever would take this decision by his own, even if he is wanted to by heart.



My being naive in your opinion has to with your inability to find a reason to end the speculation. Which basically means you have none, so speculate away I shall.



It.is.all.mudi's.fault said:


> Seriously, You people need to pipe down. You are buying *just* 15 Helis, not 150,hence *no Indian is interested to harangue with Pakistanis on this.*
> 
> They pretty much have zero consequences for Indian Army.


Not if 90% of the population on your forums are to believed.


----------



## Tameem

Oscar said:


> My being naive in your opinion has to with your inability to find a reason to end the speculation. Which basically means you have none, so speculate away I shall.



If you didn't see the _*reason*_ being a complete naive, it didn't mean its not their '*all open*'....in fact you lacks a true eye instead.


----------



## Dil Pakistan

*Guys ! Just found this comment in DAWN, regarding sale of these helis to PA. 

What do you think ?*

*JEFFT - about an hour ago:*
*"*US hypocracy par excellence!! It's a self-serving attempt by offering almost obsolete Vipers to Pakistan when for well over a decade it has been asking for attack helicopters to replace its 60s vintage Cobras. The offer is being made to wean away Pakistan at a moment when it's actually evaluating the just received three Z-10 gunships from China and is negotiating with Russia for procurement of 20 Mi-35 attack helicopters*"*.

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## AMDR

Dil Pakistan said:


> almost obsolete Vipers


How are they obsolete? They were just introduced to the USMC in 2010 with IAS(Mission computers, automatic flight control), HMDs, and a 3rd generation FLIR system.

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## HRK

AMDR said:


> How are they obsolete? They were just introduced to the USMC in 2010 with IAS(Mission computers, automatic flight control), HMDs, and a 3rd generation FLIR system.



because it is said by an 'anonymous poster at news paper site' who may not be aware what HMD or FLIR or Hell fire missile means .... so just accept it as it is posted you have no right to raise the concerns its virtual world with freedom of speech ....


----------



## Thəorətic Muslim

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do you think USA would be able to get the permissions of letting Pakistan have 40-50 AH-1Z's without losing on the Apache deal with the Indian's. As it is most likely the Indian's would not buy the Apache because they know that it is similar or may be slightly more advance to the AH-64E Block III's they are trying to get along with the Chinook's.
> 
> They would have to also provide assurance to the parliament regarding their ability to some how restrict Pakistan access to the Spares which is not so easy. In an earlier post I read that it would be possible for PAA to maintain these new Zulu's for 15 to 20 years easily.



The only concern is maintaining the status Quo. And the Status Quo is Pakistan possesses the required minimum that it's leadership considers is significant to silence any voice in it's security dilemma.



Fawad Mahsud said:


> - Who is Zulu man ??
> You asked me so i Google it and you want to know the result ??
> 
> 1) A member of a South African people traditionally living mainly in KwaZulu-Natal province.
> 2) A code word representing the letter Z, used in radio communication.
> 3) relating to the Zulus or their language.





salarsikander said:


> Hi,
> It is better for you join some local evening comic club. You mental level suggests that youre far too behind to handle the stuff that goes around here



The US ARMY names it's helicopters after various Native American Indian Tribes.

The US NAVY names it's ships as listed:

Air Craft Carriers- US Presidents/ Admiral/ 1 A/C is required to be Enterprise
Battleships (Phased out)- States 
Cruisers- Distinguished Americans, Famous battles
Destroyers- US Navy/ Marine Officers/ Enlisted
Frigates- US Navy/ Marine Officers/ Enlisted
Submarines- Fish, US Presidents, US Navy Admirals, US Politicians, Cities, States

@SvenSvensonov


----------



## airmarshal

SipahSalar said:


> But the USA is very very neutral on Yemen. Don't believe their statements. They are mum about their role in the coalition, their only contribution being rescue of pilots.



Not correct. They are providing intelligence to Saudis. 

This is a strange fact.



Dil Pakistan said:


> *Guys ! Just found this comment in DAWN, regarding sale of these helis to PA.
> 
> What do you think ?*
> 
> *JEFFT - about an hour ago:*
> *"*US hypocracy par excellence!! It's a self-serving attempt by offering almost obsolete Vipers to Pakistan when for well over a decade it has been asking for attack helicopters to replace its 60s vintage Cobras. The offer is being made to wean away Pakistan at a moment when it's actually evaluating the just received three Z-10 gunships from China and is negotiating with Russia for procurement of 20 Mi-35 attack helicopters*"*.



Obsolete!!!!! These are new build helicopters. They have closed AH-1W line to start production of -1Z. This is a brand new copter with brand new avionics and systems.

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## Víðarr

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> The US ARMY names it's helicopters after various Native American Indian Tribes.
> 
> The US NAVY names it's ships as listed:
> 
> Air Craft Carriers- US Presidents/ Admiral/ 1 A/C is required to be Enterprise
> Battleships (Phased out)- States
> Cruisers- Distinguished Americans, Famous battles
> Destroyers- US Navy/ Marine Officers/ Enlisted
> Frigates- US Navy/ Marine Officers/ Enlisted
> Submarines- Fish, US Presidents, US Navy Admirals, US Politicians, Cities, States
> 
> @SvenSvensonov



This is true, however, in the case of the "Zulu" Cobra this is a phonetic designation rather than a name relating to Native American tribes - especially since the name of the helicopter is cobra and not a Native Name like Sioux or Lakota.

Take the "Whiskey" cobra as an example, there is no Native American tribe called Whiskey, but Whiskey is part of the Phonetic Alphabet, which the US uses to demarcate different blocks. the AH-1Z being the most recent, and probably the last of the AH-1 line for the US military, hence it's "Zulu" designation.

It's the same phenomenon seen in this article with the mention of the F-15 "charlie"

_F-15 fighters have been flown since the 1970s, with the single-seat “*Charlie*” version that crashed Wednesday first appearing in the latter half of the decade, Air Force officials say._

After crash in Virginia, a brief history of F-15 fighter jet mishaps - The Washington Post



Fawad Mahsud said:


> - Who is Zulu man ??
> You asked me so i Google it and you want to know the result ??
> 
> 1) A member of a South African people traditionally living mainly in KwaZulu-Natal province.
> 2) A code word representing the letter Z, used in radio communication.
> 3) relating to the Zulus or their language.



See the above explanation to answer your question.

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## Viking 63

Pakistan army and Air force both are worse than a Donkey, even a Donkey will learn his lesson but not our beloved forces, again back to the USA after getting humiliated again and again , really a bunch of BAGAHARATS !!!

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## Hamartia Antidote

Víðarr said:


> This is true, however, in the case of the "Zulu" Cobra this is a phonetic designation rather than a name relating to Native American tribes - especially since the name of the helicopter is cobra and not a Native Name like Sioux or Lakota.



I think the Cobras are just considered enhanced Bell UH-1 Iroquois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SQ8

Tameem said:


> If you didn't see the _*reason*_ being a complete naive, it didn't mean its not their '*all open*'....in fact you lacks a true eye instead.



In the words of Zardari, "Ye aap ka khayal hai".



Dil Pakistan said:


> *Guys ! Just found this comment in DAWN, regarding sale of these helis to PA.
> 
> What do you think ?*
> 
> *JEFFT - about an hour ago:*
> *"*US hypocracy par excellence!! It's a self-serving attempt by offering almost obsolete Vipers to Pakistan when for well over a decade it has been asking for attack helicopters to replace its 60s vintage Cobras. The offer is being made to wean away Pakistan at a moment when it's actually evaluating the just received three Z-10 gunships from China and is negotiating with Russia for procurement of 20 Mi-35 attack helicopters*"*.



The comment is made by someone who like many Pakistanis is an ignorant self righteous buffoon. So no surprise.

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## Víðarr

Peter C said:


> I think the Cobras are just considered enhanced Bell UH-1 Iroquois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The original AH-1, yes, but the SuperCobra and its variants including the AH-1Z Viper don't share the commonality with the UH-1, from whom the original Cobra took its engine, transmission and rotor system

The original was designed from the UH-1
Bell AH-1 Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The modern SuperCobra is a completely different aircraft though with no commonality between it and the UH-1.
Bell AH-1 SuperCobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mingle

cabatli_53 said:


> It is known that Turkey and Pakistan agreed on many points regarding the sale of T-129 Atak helicopters. According to frame agreement(What I understood), TAI would allow Pakistan to produce some parts of body along with general assembly line of Atak. The parts manufactured by Pakistan, will be ordered by TAI, When A new export deal is signed (For example Bahrain). With this way, Pakistan would have been considered as international Atak producer along with TAI.
> 
> Recent days, PM didn't give a country name but mentioned as our so called ally not allow engine export to a country When We agreed to make a deal. Most probably, He was talking about Atak and Pakistan.


I agree with it must be pakistan Americans R very clever businessmen .after 9/11 when things went good with US pak opted 26 Belgian F16s which were stored by them and they were willing to but it state department said No and then they offer pak new F16 s .thats the trick they use they stoped Turks helicopter reason they want to sell pak theior Cobras my take number will go up to 50 down the road is nothing but bussiness .pak was looking Gripen and american said no to engine export reason who gonna buy our F16 .now 1 billion will go bell and locked they Know they will fetch further 2 billions easily more with further orders .house will approve it I know no issue republicans R more pakistan friendly than democrats now all on same boat .Sadly it's all abut saving jobs


----------



## Saifullah Sani

*Potential AH-1Z sale to Pakistan announced as Islamabad tests Chinese competitor*






Pakistan is reported to have received three WZ-10 attack helicopters from China. Source: Via Top81 website
The US Defense Security Co-operation Agency's (DSCA's) 6 April announcement of the potential sale of 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army follows reports that the country is testing at least three Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters.

The DSCA notification described the AH-1Z, which is currently only in US Marine Corps service, as providing "Pakistan with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that it can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATA], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments".

The WZ-10s reportedly arrived at the Pakistan Army's Qasim Army Aviation base near Rawalpindi in late 2014. A senior Pakistani government official told _IHS _

*Jane'son 8 April that "the Chinese helicopters are being used in anti-terror operations" without giving further information on the types of operations where they have been used. He added that Pakistan and China "are looking at further collaboration in helicopters" without revealing further details.*





*A DSCA notification released on 7 April outlined the potential sale of 15 Bell AH-1Zs to Islamabad. (US Marine Corps)*​The Pakistan Army received 20 AH-1S Cobra attack helicopters from the US from 1984 that were upgraded to AH-1F standard and equipped with C-NITE (Cobra Night Imaging Thermal Equipment) and TOW missile day/night capability. *Twelve ex-US Army AH-1Fs were delivered in 2006-07, but these do not feature C-NITE and are limited to daylight operations.*

Meanwhile, _IHS Jane's_ reported in November 2014 that Pakistan and Russia were closing in on discussions for Moscow's possible sale of a batch of Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters. In December 2014, minister for defence production Rana Tanvir Hussain said that Pakistan was also in discussions with Russia for the possible sale of an unspecified number of Mi-28NE 'Havoc' attack helicopters.

*The Pakistani official who spoke to IHS Jane's on 8 April said discussions with Russia for the purchase of Mi-35 and Mi-28 helicopters "are now on hold but not cancelled" without elaborating further.*

Potential AH-1Z sale to Pakistan announced as Islamabad tests Chinese competitor - IHS Jane's 360​

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## airmarshal

If I look at AH-1Z, T-129 and WZ-10, WZ-10 looks like a toy and does not seem to mean business. Thats just looks, not capability.


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## Wolf

If there is a string attached to the sale of super cobras that Pakistan will not buy chinese or russian helis and americans dont give assurance of unhindered supply of spares then we should not go for it. Otherwise ok.


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## razgriz19

Saifullah Sani said:


> *Potential AH-1Z sale to Pakistan announced as Islamabad tests Chinese competitor*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan is reported to have received three WZ-10 attack helicopters from China. Source: Via Top81 website
> The US Defense Security Co-operation Agency's (DSCA's) 6 April announcement of the potential sale of 15 Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to the Pakistan Army follows reports that the country is testing at least three Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters.
> 
> The DSCA notification described the AH-1Z, which is currently only in US Marine Corps service, as providing "Pakistan with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that it can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATA], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments".
> 
> The WZ-10s reportedly arrived at the Pakistan Army's Qasim Army Aviation base near Rawalpindi in late 2014. A senior Pakistani government official told _IHS _
> 
> *Jane'son 8 April that "the Chinese helicopters are being used in anti-terror operations" without giving further information on the types of operations where they have been used. He added that Pakistan and China "are looking at further collaboration in helicopters" without revealing further details.*​
> 
> 
> 
> *A DSCA notification released on 7 April outlined the potential sale of 15 Bell AH-1Zs to Islamabad. (US Marine Corps)*​The Pakistan Army received 20 AH-1S Cobra attack helicopters from the US from 1984 that were upgraded to AH-1F standard and equipped with C-NITE (Cobra Night Imaging Thermal Equipment) and TOW missile day/night capability. *Twelve ex-US Army AH-1Fs were delivered in 2006-07, but these do not feature C-NITE and are limited to daylight operations.*
> 
> Meanwhile, _IHS Jane's_ reported in November 2014 that Pakistan and Russia were closing in on discussions for Moscow's possible sale of a batch of Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters. In December 2014, minister for defence production Rana Tanvir Hussain said that Pakistan was also in discussions with Russia for the possible sale of an unspecified number of Mi-28NE 'Havoc' attack helicopters.
> 
> *The Pakistani official who spoke to IHS Jane's on 8 April said discussions with Russia for the purchase of Mi-35 and Mi-28 helicopters "are now on hold but not cancelled" without elaborating further.*
> 
> Potential AH-1Z sale to Pakistan announced as Islamabad tests Chinese competitor - IHS Jane's 360​



This is exactly why I don't trust any news unless I actually see a picture or get an official confirmation from both sides. 
Mi-35 purchase is on hold, and everyone was claiming they're on their way...


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## black-hawk_101

I think the deal from USA side might turn towards AH-1 Cobras with upgrades and also a bigger spare shipment too from US side to support the existing fleet.

Moreover, PAA should be allowed to buy AH-1 Cobras spares from Spain. Also, they should be allowed to buy from Philippines, Bahrain, Turkey and Jordan to complement and increase the fleet. This might allow them to have a total of 140+ AH-1 Cobras. So they may deploy 100 towards Indian border and 40 towards Pak-*IRAN* and Pak-AFGHAN border.


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## Kompromat

I doubt WZ-10 has anything to do with AH-1Z sale. However If i was to pick, i would go for WZ-10 when it gets WZ-16 Turboshaft engines giving it almost equal power to the AH-64D Apaches. There is also a possibility of getting transfer of technology from China for helicopter manufacturing as well as for AKD-10 Missiles which we can later use in larger UCAVs as well. It will give us much independence in operating and maintaining the platform while AH-1Z will make us beg the US every single time.

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## Saifullah Sani

Horus said:


> I doubt WZ-10 has anything to do with AH-1Z sale. However If i was to pick, i would go for WZ-10 when it gets WZ-16 Turboshaft engines giving it almost equal power to the AH-64D Apaches. There is also a possibility of getting transfer of technology from China for helicopter manufacturing as well as for AKD-10 Missiles which we can later use in larger UCAVs as well. It will give us much independence in operating and maintaining the platform while AH-1Z will make us beg the US every single time.





Saifullah Sani said:


> _Jane's_on 8 April that "the Chinese helicopters are being used in anti-terror operations" without giving further information on the types of operations where they have been used. He added that Pakistan and China "are looking at further collaboration in helicopters" without revealing further details.

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## Sulman Badshah

AMDR said:


> How are they obsolete? They were just introduced to the USMC in 2010 with IAS(Mission computers, automatic flight control), HMDs, and a 3rd generation FLIR system.


poor journalism i guess .. vipers are newest bird offer by US


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## Donatello

Horus said:


> I doubt WZ-10 has anything to do with AH-1Z sale. However If i was to pick, i would go for WZ-10 when it gets WZ-16 Turboshaft engines giving it almost equal power to the AH-64D Apaches. There is also a possibility of getting transfer of technology from China for helicopter manufacturing as well as for AKD-10 Missiles which we can later use in larger UCAVs as well. It will give us much independence in operating and maintaining the platform while AH-1Z will make us beg the US every single time.



Let's wait and see. A year or two ago, no one could've seen the AH-1Z coming with 1000 hellfires.......or WZ10 or Russians opening up. So i guess, we'll have to chug along and not speculate. Pakistan is as important as ever in the rapidly changing environment of the Middle-east, south Asia, i hope our Daft leaders can actually make a good use of the situation.

Does anyone know if this billion dollar deal is finance by Pakistan or US FMF?

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## Tameem

Oscar said:


> In the words of Zardari, "Ye aap ka khayal hai".



Pakistani Parliament declares neutrality on Yemen, calls for peace talks.

Ji Oscar Bhai.....Ustaaad Mantay hain phir......


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Let's wait and see. A year or two ago, no one could've seen the AH-1Z coming with 1000 hellfires.......or WZ10 or Russians opening up. So i guess, we'll have to chug along and not speculate. Pakistan is as important as ever in the rapidly changing environment of the Middle-east, south Asia, i hope our Daft leaders can actually make a good use of the situation.
> 
> Does anyone know if this billion dollar deal is finance by Pakistan or US FMF?


US FMF can not be possible. US can not ask their tax payers for this after the WAR's it has recently fought. The Congress would only give these Zulu's if Pakistan Pays for them.


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## Donatello

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> US FMF can not be possible. US can not ask their tax payers for this after the WAR's it has recently fought. The Congress would only give these Zulu's if Pakistan Pays for them.



US gives about a billion and half to Pakistan each year, that is military to military funding only, USAID civilian funding is separate. So i think they can technically use the Coalition Support Fund to fund these, but yea Pakistan can pay as well. Would be interesting to know.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> US gives about a billion and half to Pakistan each year, that is military to military funding only, USAID civilian funding is separate. So i think they can technically use the Coalition Support Fund to fund these, but yea Pakistan can pay as well. Would be interesting to know.


The Coalition Support fund would be paying the difference to the price Pakistan paid for the 28 embargoed F-16's to Block-52. Though I would love to see Pakistan taking the US to court for damages regarding these 28 F-16's that were paid for but not delivered.


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## Donatello

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The Coalition Support fund would be paying the difference to the price Pakistan paid for the 28 embargoed F-16's to Block-52. Though I would love to see Pakistan taking the US to court for damages regarding these 28 F-16's that were paid for but not delivered.



Out of the 28, 14 were made up for....though used. I think the finances on that old order are now settled.....USA paid back in some crap quality wheat at the time. No point in wasting time and money in the courts for digging out old graves. A case like this is easily going to run into 100 million USD or more.....What Pakistan can do is, ask for more MLU f-16s, plenty of fleets around the world that would be retiring soon...or USA's own ANG units.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Out of the 28, 14 were made up for....though used. I think the finances on that old order are now settled.....USA paid back in some crap quality wheat at the time. No point in wasting time and money in the courts for digging out old graves. A case like this is easily going to run into 100 million USD or more.....What Pakistan can do is, ask for more MLU f-16s, plenty of fleets around the world that would be retiring soon...or USA's own ANG units.



Yes it can be a long time but you know the lawyers and judges even hang the corps of the dead to give justice.

There are many MLU'ed ones in Europe. Not to mention the Greeks are in a bit of financial trouble so they might be interested in selling the Block 52's they have. There is news that the 3 A-340-300's Govt. of Greece owns are for sale, so are other assets. These could be the only that might be available on short notice or the Turkish Block-30's though not MLU'ed. The US ones require engine changes.


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## Donatello

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes it can be a long time but you know the lawyers and judges even hang the corps of the dead to give justice.
> 
> There are many MLU'ed ones in Europe. Not to mention the Greeks are in a bit of financial trouble so they might be interested in selling the Block 52's they have. There is news that the 3 A-340-300's Govt. of Greece owns are for sale, so are other assets. These could be the only that might be available on short notice or the Turkish Block-30's though not MLU'ed. The US ones require engine changes.



Turkey won't part anytime soon, since they have a decent life in them, if they chose not to MLU, it means that's the end of life for them. PAF would be looking for airframes with at least 10-15 years of life. Humid/wet weather has its own way of taking toll.


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## Imranpak786

This deal is not only for 15 AH-1Z but includes 1000 advanced Hellfire missile and 32 engines for older cobras. There are suspicions over supply of spares in future for these cobras. But overall I think this is not bad deal.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Turkey won't part anytime soon, since they have a decent life in them, if they chose not to MLU, it means that's the end of life for them. PAF would be looking for airframes with at least 10-15 years of life. Humid/wet weather has its own way of taking toll.


The only place you can low humid / wet weather is a desert. The stored F-16's require the same approvals a new one would require and would not be as cheap as the ones flying so one might have a new one then for a little more.


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## My-Analogous

airmarshal said:


> If I look at AH-1Z, T-129 and WZ-10, WZ-10 looks like a toy and does not seem to mean business. Thats just looks, not capability.



Mate are you purchasing those for marriages?

Pakistan should go for remaining 18 F-16 option, Already approved in US congress and ready to delivered only mode


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## Neptune

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes it can be a long time but you know the lawyers and judges even hang the corps of the dead to give justice.
> 
> There are many MLU'ed ones in Europe. Not to mention the Greeks are in a bit of financial trouble so they might be interested in selling the Block 52's they have. There is news that the 3 A-340-300's Govt. of Greece owns are for sale, so are other assets. These could be the only that might be available on short notice or the Turkish Block-30's though not MLU'ed. The US ones require engine changes.





Donatello said:


> Turkey won't part anytime soon, since they have a decent life in them, if they chose not to MLU, it means that's the end of life for them. PAF would be looking for airframes with at least 10-15 years of life. Humid/wet weather has its own way of taking toll.



We don't have any Block-30 variant.

TURAF poses F-16C/D Block 40 and 50/50+ variants only and they'll be replaced by the time TF-X becomes operational, 2025 wards.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Neptune said:


> We don't have any Block-30 variant.
> 
> TURAF poses F-16C/D Block 40 and 50/50+ variants only and they'll be replaced by the time TF-X becomes operational, 2025 wards.


What would F-35's replace?


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## munchkin

I think WZ-10 is better.


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## Irfan Baloch

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Exactly. Pakistan Army uses muscle power to kill its own citizens whether it is East Pakistan, Balochistan and in KPK. Pakistan Army created Taliban now the same people have joined the terrorist outfits inside Pakistan.


I thought I will never use the negative rating but I must because of your chronic hatred for the army and your ludicrous 
comparisons

Taliban were created by CIA and Saudi collaboration after the approval of Democratically elected prime minster Benazir Bhutto.
as far as killing its own citizens is concerned, the mandate of any army worth its salt is simple. to fight and destroy all internal and external enemies of the state.

if you are suffering from some hatred hamoroid syndrome then look up the actions taken by Saudis against its "own citizens" calling themselves Al-Akhwan. if it doesnt work for you then see how Hazrat Abu Bakar r.a dealt with the tribes who had a second thought about not paying zakat.

the bottomline is dont mess with the state because it has the means to screw you deep, long and hard. as long as you keep your venom against the army within the limit of your keyboard then its fine, cross the line if you are in Pakistan then you will also become a victim citizen.

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## Paksanity

munchkin said:


> I think WZ-10 is better.



AH-1Z is far far superior to Z-10 and any other choices on the table. It outclasses AH-64D in some key areas at less than half the price. I was just reading narratives of US veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. Each and everyone liked AH-1W (variant from which Z is derived) over Apache. It is a dream machine for infantry support they say. It carries every capability of AH-64D, flies faster, higher and farther than its competitors except for Ka-52 which is not offered to us. It carries most advanced generation of US sensors whose quality is unmatched.

Z-10 is not suited for high mountain operation. It has very limited ceiling and mountains in Northern FATA can reach upto 18000 ft. Only AH-1Z is capable of operating at such altitudes. Not even AH-64D could do this as noted by US veterans in Afghanistan. They had to bring in cobras to replace apaches


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## munchkin

Paksanity said:


> AH-1Z is far far superior to Z-10 and any other choices on the table. It outclasses AH-64D in some key areas at less than half the price. I was just reading narratives of US veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. Each and everyone liked AH-1W (variant from which Z is derived) over Apache. It is a dream machine for infantry support they say. It carries every capability of AH-64D, flies faster, higher and farther than its competitors except for Ka-52 which is not offered to us. It carries most advanced generation of US sensors whose quality is unmatched.
> 
> Z-10 is not suited for high mountain operation. It has very limited ceiling and mountains in Northern FATA can reach upto 18000 ft. Only AH-1Z is capable of operating at such altitudes. Not even AH-64D could do this as noted by US veterans in Afghanistan. They had to bring in cobras to replace apaches




Seems WZ-10 and AH-1Z have similar service ceilings. 6400 meters compared to 6000+ meters. Anyhow, just because of politics, Pakistan has to reject AH-1Z because or else Pakistan has to do what the US wants Pakistan to do which includes getting into costly pointless wars.


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## Paksanity

munchkin said:


> Seems WZ-10 and AH-1Z have similar service ceilings. 6400 meters compared to 6000+ meters. Anyhow, just because of politics, Pakistan has to reject AH-1Z because or else Pakistan has to do what the US wants Pakistan to do.



Chinese lack advance engine technologies and ceiling is direct consequence of engine performance. Z-10 might touch that altitude when barebone but what good is that? Then quality of sensor is critical in finding targets to engage them. I am afraid US is far ahead in this field. For me veterans who have seen these machines in action seem really credible.


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## munchkin

Paksanity said:


> Chinese lack advance engine technologies and ceiling is direct consequence of engine performance. Z-10 might touch that altitude when barebone but what good is that? Then quality of sensor is critical in finding targets to engage them. I am afraid US is far ahead in this field. For me veterans who have seen these machines in action seem really credible.




I think WZ-10 is sufficient. In any case, AH-1Z will be rejected on political grounds.

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## Neptune

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What would F-35's replace?



The RF-4E/F-4E 2020s. But as for now these aircraft are no longer operational in service of TURAF.

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## princefaisal

Now Pakistan should upgrade its older fleet of cobras to AH-1Z Viper standard and this should be done in Turkey, if possible.


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## Shabi1

princefaisal said:


> Now Pakistan should upgrade its older fleet of cobras to AH-1Z Viper standard and this should be done in Turkey, if possible.



Pakistan's older fleet are AH-1F/S Cobra they cannot be upgraded to AH-1Z Viper only the AH-1W Super Cobra can be upgraded to Z standard.

The older fleet can still function with an overhaul just as Iran has done and will probably be in limited use or in reserve. The problem with the older Cobras is their running and maintenance costs are too high. Secondly with extensive use I have read that PA Cobras often return with bullet holes and have been extensively patched up, the rotors are constantly replaced because of holes. You can overhaul them but with so much patch up work done on the airframes there is a limit to the number of viable overhauls.

Pakistan has 38 Cobras and from what I've heard SOP is 15 are on the front whereas as 15 on reserve while 8 are in repairs/maintenance.

With expanding use of helicopters a mere 15 AH-1Zs will not meet the requirement despite being less maintenance intensive. Also the request for the AH-1Zs were made when the Z-10 wasnt available so whether Pakistan will accept the offer is a big question mark. The US prefers reimbursing Pakistan's war on terror funds via US equipment sales instead of handing it out. Partial offset via war on terror reimbursements is the only way I see Pakistan going for AH-1Zs. But AH-1Z deal yes or no , I have no doubt the Z-10s will definitely be inducted.

I suspect its going to be a mix of AH-1Z, Z-10 and Mi-35M along with greater use of armed drones. We need better drones with more payload to lessen the dependence on Gunships just as the US is doing to reduce A-10 and Gunship use.


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## princefaisal

How much minimum no. of attack helicopters are required to defend the eastern border?


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## azam usama

Its a great addition to pakistan army....


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## black-hawk_101

Then will PAA going to sell their AH-1s with US permission to Korea or Japan as they are both upgrading it and will need it for spares.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

1 Billion dollars for mere 15 these cobra helicopters ? 

Considering our JF17 Thunder design and development was at 400 Million 

What a great waste of money


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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 1 Billion dollars for mere 15 these cobra helicopters ?
> 
> Considering our JF17 Thunder design and development was at 400 Million
> 
> What a great waste of money


Well still helicopters are great to have but we should not compromise MI-35 on these


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think our leaders don't understand how many Zeros are there in Billion Dollars

We are getting 15 Helicopters ? Mere 15

Its 1,000,000,000 = 9 zeros

What we could have done?

Fenec , we could have gotten *200 Fennec* for 500 Million dollars , and kept 500 Million for Navy to get 4 more frigates
Perhaps developed a mini Missile for these helicopters from local efforts








We could have invested into

Mi-28 cost of 16 Million for *30 Helicopters *for 500 Million , and gave 500 Million dollars to Navy, get 4 new F22P frigates







Mil-Mi 35
Unit cost 12 Million






*41 Helicopters *for 500 Million , and gave 500 Million dollars to Navy get 4 new F22P frigates



Or Get 30 Z-10 Helicopters from China, brand new , unlimited upgrades and engines

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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think our leaders don't understand how many Zeros are there in Billion Dollars
> 
> We are getting 15 Helicopters ? Mere 15
> 
> Its 1,000,000,000 = 9 zeros
> 
> What we could have done?
> 
> Fenec , we could have gotten *200 Fennec* for 500 Million dollars , and kept 500 Million for Navy to get 4 more frigates
> Perhaps developed a mini Missile for these helicopters from local efforts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We could have invested into
> 
> Mi-28 cost of 16 Million for *30 Helicopters *for 500 Million , and gave 500 Million dollars to Navy, get 4 new F22P frigates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mil-Mi 35
> Unit cost 12 Million
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *41 Helicopters *for 500 Million , and gave 500 Million dollars to Navy get 4 new F22P frigates
> 
> 
> 
> Or Get 30 Z-10 Helicopters from China, brand new , unlimited upgrades and engines


We already have Barq


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## Irfan Baloch

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 1 Billion dollars for mere 15 these cobra helicopters ?
> 
> Considering our JF17 Thunder design and development was at 400 Million
> 
> What a great waste of money


there is a possibility of misquoting the figures but also consider this that the sub systems, armament, spares that come with these helicopters can bring the price many fold to its standard price. check out the requirements and the individual systems like sensors, targeting pods, mission computers, avionics, armor, the weapon systems the guidance it detection range etc same two machines with different packages can bump the price.


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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> Well still helicopters are great to have but we should not compromise MI-35 on these



we are not compromising Mi-35 read statement of Rana Tanveer Minister of Defence Production in today's newspaper.





Jang Multimedia Karachi

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## SipahSalar

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What we could have done?
> 
> Fenec , we could have gotten *200 Fennec* for 500 Million dollars , and kept 500 Million for Navy to get 4 more frigates
> Perhaps developed a mini Missile for these helicopters from local efforts


Or we could have gotten 2.8 million AK-47's at $350 a piece. Screw the AH-1Z right?

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## Kamil_baku

inaveed72 said:


> I am too much confused now... Mi35, Mi-28, WZ-10, T-129 And AH-1z Viper. Which one is best for Pakistan and what we have decided to buy??








T-129 is smaller and more silent as it use Camache engine. But it can lift as much as Z-10. Also, it is way maneuver.. you can simply check videos both of them,,

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## razgriz19

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is a possibility of misquoting the figures but also consider this that the sub systems, armament, spares that come with these helicopters can bring the price many fold to its standard price. check out the requirements and the individual systems like sensors, targeting pods, mission computers, avionics, armor, the weapon systems the guidance it detection range etc same two machines with different packages can bump the price.



Exactly. It's like buying a Merc C class, the base price may very well be $45000, but when you're done with all the options, you would be paying at least $65000.

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## Xracer

Well What a move by Pakistan LOL

Finally They have given up the decision of not providing *AH-1Z Viper to Pakistan......*

*Thanks China & Russia..........*

But Z10 Whould be a Wise Move to be honest...... Hope PA also get that toooooooo....
i think pakistan has learned from past and now adopting two diffrent kinds of Arms from diffrent Countries.....


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## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> Exactly. It's like buying a Merc C class, the base price may very well be $45000, but when you're done with all the options, you would be paying at least $65000.



True, but options are generally useless in cars, because they depreciate very fast.
Combat aircraft on the other hand, last you 30-40 years. So it is important to get what you can now, later it might not be possible.

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## mqur1963

Donatello said:


> True, but options are generally useless in cars, because they depreciate very fast.
> Combat aircraft on the other hand, last you 30-40 years. So it is important to get what you can now, later it might not be possible.





that “U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.”
In detail the package includes:
_(….) 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.
Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated cost is $952 million._


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> True, but options are generally useless in cars, because they depreciate very fast.
> Combat aircraft on the other hand, last you 30-40 years. So it is important to get what you can now, later it might not be possible.


The technology can be duplicated but in reverse. Aerodynamically the car requires down force where as aircraft requires up lift.


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## inaveed72

Kamil_baku said:


> View attachment 214816
> 
> T-129 is smaller and more silent as it use Camache engine. But it can lift as much as Z-10. Also, it is way maneuver.. you can simply check videos both of them,,


Thanx for the info bro

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## Kinetic

Looks extremely costly! So I think this is coming under this...

Obama seeks $1bn from Congress for aid to Pakistan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Aur kitna looge free main??!!!!

Pakistan getting ..... 

$ 1 billion
15 AH-1Z Viper Helicopters
1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers,
and other common things like EW, computers etc



India buying... 

$1.4 billion
22 AH-64D Block III Apache helicopters.
12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars,
812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles,
542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles,
245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles,
23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors,
and other common things like EW, computers etc



Its 15 Cobra vs 22 Apache with radar and 1000 Hellfire vs 1354 Hellfire missiles and no Stinger vs 245 Stingers. So Pakistani deal seems extremely costly, hence I think its coming under aid...

@Abingdonboy

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## FaujHistorian

Kinetic said:


> Looks extremely costly! So I think this is coming under this...
> 
> Obama seeks $1bn from Congress for aid to Pakistan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Aur kitna looge free main??!!!!
> 
> Pakistan getting .....
> 
> $ 1 billion
> 15 AH-1Z Viper Helicopters
> 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers,
> and other common things like EW, computers etc
> 
> 
> 
> India buying...
> 
> $1.4 billion
> 22 AH-64D Block III Apache helicopters.
> 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars,
> 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles,
> 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles,
> 245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles,
> 23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors,
> and other common things like EW, computers etc
> 
> 
> 
> Its 15 Cobra vs 22 Apache with radar and 1000 Hellfire vs 1354 Hellfire missiles and no Stinger vs 245 Stingers. So Pakistani deal seems extremely costly, hence I think its coming under aid...
> 
> @Abingdonboy



Wow. 

Really good point. I wish our baboos in defense ministry could use these figures to get more stuff for the money. Thank you.

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## Kinetic

FaujHistorian said:


> Wow.
> 
> Really good point. I wish our baboos in defense ministry could use these figures to get more stuff for the money. Thank you.




Yes but you are getting this for free or atleast part of this is paid by Govt of US. This is local politics of US to fund the defence contractors via FMS while the actual money is coming from US govt via aid.


----------



## FaujHistorian

Kinetic said:


> Yes but you are getting this for free or atleast part of this is paid by Govt of US. This is local politics of US to fund the defence contractors via FMS while the actual money is coming from US govt via aid.



There are laws in the US about overcharging defense department or state department. 

Serious crime. Bhai jaan. Very serious.

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## HRK

Kinetic said:


> Looks extremely costly! So I think this is coming under this...
> 
> Obama seeks $1bn from Congress for aid to Pakistan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Aur kitna looge free main??!!!!




Aur tum kitna looge free main??!!!!

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## FaujHistorian

Kinetic said:


> ...
> Aur kitna looge free main??!!!!



Nothing is free bhai jaan. 

This is an era of American civilization. That means every country in the world provides services to USA then gets dollars in return. 

India provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 300+ billions)
China provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 4000+ billions)
S Korea provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 500+ billions)
Pakistan provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 10+ billions)

From this you can tell who works the "hardest" in providing services.


----------



## Kinetic

HRK said:


> Aur tum kitna looge free main??!!!!
> View attachment 215178



provide the link pls,

How many F-16 did we get? prove that a single US aircraft dare to enter our airspace and kill anyone. We will bring shit out of US's ***. Proove that even a single dollar is taken by Govt of India. All these comes through various NGO.


UAE was upset over leak about Balochistan airstrip - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Back to the topic please.


----------



## FaujHistorian

Kinetic said:


> . Proove that even a single dollar is taken by Govt of India.



Bhaii jaan


why you drag India into this thread. Must we do $hit shoveling Pak-Ind style in every damned thread. 

Must we?


----------



## Kinetic

FaujHistorian said:


> Nothing is free bhai jaan.
> 
> This is an era of American civilization. That means every country in the world provides services to USA then gets dollars in return.
> 
> India provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 300+ billions)
> China provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 4000+ billions)
> S Korea provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 500+ billions)
> Pakistan provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 10+ billions)
> 
> From this you can tell who works the "hardest" in providing services.




India and China sells products but what Pakistan is selling? Leave it, otherwise it will get nasty. We know what Pakistan is selling.


----------



## HRK

Kinetic said:


> How many F-16 did we get? Proove that even a single dollar is taken by Govt of India. All these comes through various NGO.



Such a stupid post ..... Defence & Security assistance, Economic & Security support assistance, 'Non-proliferation', Anti Terrorism assistance were given to NGOs ..... I don't know why *you troll *Indians here make every effort to ashamed your own educated & sensible country men ....

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## Kinetic

FaujHistorian said:


> Bhaii jaan
> 
> 
> why you drag India into this thread. Must we do $hit shoveling Pak-Ind style in every damned thread.
> 
> Must we?




I didn't, he did.



HRK said:


> Such a stupid post ..... Defence & Security assistance, Economic & Security support assistance, 'Non-proliferation', Anti Terrorism assistance were given to NGOs ..... I don't know why *you troll *Indians here make every effort to ashamed your own educated & sensible country men ....




Over?? You cant prove. Now leave this. You are over. lol


----------



## FaujHistorian

Kinetic said:


> I didn't, he did.



off course. 

It should have been left there unanswered. Thank you.

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## HRK

Kinetic said:


> provide the link pls,
> 
> How many F-16 did we get? prove that a single US aircraft dare to enter our airspace and kill anyone. We will bring shit out of US's ***. Proove that even a single dollar is taken by Govt of India. All these comes through various NGO.
> 
> 
> UAE was upset over leak about Balochistan airstrip - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Back to the topic please.



So you edited your post ... typical troll attitude ....

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## Kinetic

FaujHistorian said:


> off course.
> 
> It should have been left there unanswered. Thank you.


Ok thanks.

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## HRK

Kinetic said:


> I didn't, he did.



this is my post or yours .....



Kinetic said:


> Looks extremely costly! So I think this is coming under this...
> Obama seeks $1bn from Congress for aid to Pakistan - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> *Aur kitna looge free main??!!!!*
> Pakistan getting .....
> $ 1 billion
> 15 AH-1Z Viper Helicopters
> 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers,
> and other common things like EW, computers etc
> India buying...
> $1.4 billion
> 22 AH-64D Block III Apache helicopters.
> 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars,
> 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles,
> 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles,
> 245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles,
> 23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors,
> and other common things like EW, computers etc
> 
> Its 15 Cobra vs 22 Apache with radar and 1000 Hellfire vs 1354 Hellfire missiles and no Stinger vs 245 Stingers. So Pakistani deal seems extremely costly, hence I think its coming under aid...
> 
> @Abingdonboy






Kinetic said:


> Over?? You cant prove. Now leave this. You are over. lol



idiot what prove do you need have you even read the source of that table ....

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Any idea when these would be delivered to Pakistan ?


----------



## Indus Falcon

This news might interest some of you:

*Northrop Grumman awarded $83M contract for AH-1Z and UH-1Y mission computers*
*19 Apr, 15, Source:  US DoD
*
Northrop Grumman Systems Corp., Woodland Hills, California, is being awarded an $83,738,954 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract for research and development efforts associated with the system improvement of system configuration sets for the *AH-1Z *and UH-1Y mission computers in support of the U.S. Marine Corps. 

Efforts include designing, developing, and implementing upgrades to existing mission computer software and ancillary hardware and/or improved functionality and obsolescence management of the mission computer. 

Work will be performed in Woodland Hills, California (80 percent); Salt Lake City, Utah (15 percent) and Baltimore, Maryland (5 percent) and is expected to be completed in April 2019. This contract was not competitively procured pursuant to FAR.6.302-1. Fiscal 2014 research, development, test and evaluation (Navy) funds in the amount of $150,000 will be obligated at time of award, all of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity (N68936-15-D-0013).

HeliHub Northrop Grumman awarded $83M contract for AH-1Z and UH-1Y mission computers

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## kolinsky

I think AH-1Z is out, when India equipt AH64.

When your rival has iphone6, will you buy a iphone3?


----------



## fatman17

It's a done deal. Congressional notice period has lapsed

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## Zarvan

kolinsky said:


> I think AH-1Z is out, when India equipt AH64.
> 
> When your rival has iphone6, will you buy a iphone3?


They are pretty much equal only difference is one is used by Navy and one is used by Army

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## kolinsky

fatman17 said:


> It's a done deal. Congressional notice period has lapsed[/QUOTE





Zarvan said:


> They are pretty much equal only difference is one is used by Navy and one is used by Army


There are huge deferences! AH1Z is a light hilicopter, and AH64 is a heavy hilicopter.

AH64 is the second generation attack hilicopter.


----------



## Viper0011.

FaujHistorian said:


> Nothing is free bhai jaan.
> 
> This is an era of American civilization. That means every country in the world provides services to USA then gets dollars in return.
> 
> India provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 300+ billions)
> China provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 4000+ billions)
> S Korea provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 500+ billions)
> Pakistan provides services and gets dollars from USA. (dollar reserves = 10+ billions)
> 
> From this you can tell who works the "hardest" in providing services.



India provides the most services from the above. The Chinese don't provide as many services but their revenue comes from manufacturing and business investments. India beats China in providing services to the US. China beats India by a large margin in providing manufacturing base and by selling its products to the US. Two different comparisons.

South Korea sells electronics and semi conductor based products and services to the US businesses. Pakistan, just like India, has similar potential too. Both countries have educated labor force with English as a part of the system due to British rule. Pakistan is way behind due to the environment (security, safety, business friendliness, terrorism, etc). In the next 10 years, Pakistan should show about a $ 100 billions in savings also, as the economy is growing and it'll grow much faster.

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## Zarvan

kolinsky said:


> There are huge deferences! AH1Z is a light hilicopter, and AH64 is a heavy hilicopter.
> 
> AH64 is the second generation attack hilicopter.


No its not man go learn about AH-1 Viper

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## fatman17

Viper0011. said:


> India provides the most services from the above. The Chinese don't provide as many services but their revenue comes from manufacturing and business investments. India beats China in providing services to the US. China beats India by a large margin in providing manufacturing base and by selling its products to the US. Two different comparisons.
> 
> South Korea sells electronics and semi conductor based products and services to the US businesses. Pakistan, just like India, has similar potential too. Both countries have educated labor force with English as a part of the system due to British rule. Pakistan is way behind due to the environment (security, safety, business friendliness, terrorism, etc). In the next 10 years, Pakistan should show about a $ 100 billions in savings also, as the economy is growing and it'll grow much faster.



What services


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## IrbiS

Sharpshooter12 said:


> The main problem that i see with this deal is not Viper but the 1000 AGM-114 *R* Hellfire II Missiles that are basically designed to take out the targets like lightly armored vehicles and bunkers e.t.c. They are of not much use against the tanks. Of course they will be of great help for our operations against TTP but for eastern border PAA requires AGM-114L Longbow. I think we should have gone for a mix of both.



It's been debated earlier better check the thread from start

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## RAMPAGE

@HRK

What are the reasons behind you being in favor of this deal?


----------



## Viper0011.

fatman17 said:


> What services



What services.....with regards to who? I am talking about multiple countries, etc



kolinsky said:


> I think AH-1Z is out, when India equipt AH64.
> 
> When your rival has iphone6, will you buy a iphone3?




Its not about IPhones, just to set things straight. This is military hardware. Apache is a heavier platform, designed to take a lot of hits from the ground, in Urban warfare. AH1Z, isn't inferior in terms of combat capabilities. But it does have lesser protection, size and a notch below avionics. But, doesn't mean its a hugely inferior platform. The AH1Z does fire missiles both AAM's and AGM's, rockets, has guns and all......it serves the purpose more than enough for Pakistan.

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## HRK

RAMPAGE said:


> @HRK
> 
> What are the reasons behind you being in favor of this deal?



because i find no reason to oppose it ....

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## fatman17

I'm sure the army planners know what they are doing and ordering

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## krash

kolinsky said:


> There are huge deferences! AH1Z is a light hilicopter, and AH64 is a heavy hilicopter.
> 
> AH64 is the second generation attack hilicopter.



Light? Not at all. There's a comparison posted between the two a few pages earlier, kindly check it out.


----------



## black-hawk_101

Will PAA going to procure another 15 of them.


----------



## Dazzler

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will PAA going to procure another 15 of them.



PAA will buy the rest of the fleet leaving nothing for the US Marines

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## black-hawk_101

Dazzler said:


> PAA will buy the rest of the fleet leaving nothing for the US Marines


So are these used ones or new ones? Though better would be buying AH-1 Cobras from Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain, Spain and Philippines, other than the US to add to fleet as PAA pilots are more experienced on those ones. I am talking about buying them in 2007 or so.


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## Dazzler

black-hawk_101 said:


> So are these used ones or new ones? Though better would be buying AH-1 Cobras from Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain, Spain and Philippines, other than the US to add to fleet as PAA pilots are more experienced on those ones. I am talking about buying them in 2007 or so.



PAA is buying the entire assembly line of AH-1Z with exclusive intellectual property rights and infrastructure, weapons, engines and stuff. After that, US marines will buy it from us..or am i wrong

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## black-hawk_101

Dazzler said:


> PAA is buying the entire assembly line of AH-1Z with exclusive intellectual property rights and infrastructure, weapons, engines and stuff. After that, US marines will buy it from us..or am i wrong


You are sounding a bit odd SIR.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

black-hawk_101 said:


> You are sounding a bit odd SIR.



He is pulling your legs.

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## black-hawk_101

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> He is pulling your legs.


What can I say as he is THINK TANK and behaving like a child.

I'm sorry for my words.

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## Dazzler

black-hawk_101 said:


> What can I say as he is THINK TANK and behaving like a child.
> 
> I'm sorry for my words.



Calm down lad, u lack humor iguess

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## Bratva

black-hawk_101 said:


> What can I say as he is THINK TANK and behaving like a child.
> 
> I'm sorry for my words.



I think he should get education from Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain, Spain and Philippines so to improve his manners. Also he should visit Iran and Saudia so to get religious education about not mocking others.

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## Irfan Baloch

kolinsky said:


> There are huge deferences! AH1Z is a light hilicopter, and AH64 is a heavy hilicopter.
> 
> AH64 is the second generation attack hilicopter.


go get a ride out on that second generation helicopter and please stop being a pest.

it is not a Vs India issue here. this helicopter is meant to take up the front-lines of our war on terror efforts.
stop persisting on irrelevant comparison.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bratva said:


> I think he should get education from Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain, Spain and Philippines so to improve his manners. Also he should visit Iran and Saudia so to get religious education about not mocking others.


Manners are best taught at home
Enough said the poor chap is going to


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## CheGuevara

that awesome


----------



## araz

Bratva said:


> I think he should get education from Turkey, Jordan, Bahrain, Spain and Philippines so to improve his manners. Also he should visit Iran and Saudia so to get religious education about not mocking others.


FUNNNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYY. Sorry for the one liner but thanks was just not enough for this one.
Araz


----------



## I S I

Should've had gone for Apache.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

I S I said:


> Should've had gone for Apache.


Viper is equal and in some areas superior to Apache ... What is problem with that

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## I S I

Sulman Badshah said:


> Viper is equal and in some areas superior to Apache ... What is problem with that


 Apaches are war tested, which is superior to any other attack heli in US inventory.


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## Assault Rifle

^^ Actually Pakistan Vipers will not have longbow radars unlike Apache AH-64E.
Also they will be armed with AGM-114R-3 and not the more advanced fire and forget AGM-114L3 plus they will be fitted with the less powerful 401c engine instead of 701D engine.

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## Mughal-Prince

kolinsky said:


> I think AH-1Z is out, when India equipt AH64.
> 
> When your rival has iphone6, will you buy a iphone3?



Please don't be a D!ck Head and try to persist over and been proven. Your iPhone comparison mentality shows you don't know a Rat about any thing so please go through the forum learn something before you post and stop littering before your A$$ been busted by some Admin.

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## Mughal-Prince

Assault Rifle said:


> ^^ Actually Pakistan Vipers will not have longbow radars unlike Apache AH-64E.
> Also they will be armed with AGM-114R-3 and not the more advanced fire and forget AGM-114L3 plus they will be fitted with the less powerful 401c engine instead of 701D engine.



Ooo WOW we got an Insider here  that's great mate can you please tell us the whole story and enlighten us with the content of agreement.

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## HRK

Assault Rifle said:


> they will be fitted with the less powerful 401c engine instead of 701D engine.

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## Zhukov

kolinsky said:


> I think AH-1Z is out, when India equipt AH64.
> 
> When your rival has iphone6, will you buy a iphone3?


Helicopters are not to be pitted against helicopters. AH1Z is the fastest gunship in the world. It can rip out Through Indian armour and bunker establishments.
Plus I think No other Gunship except AH1-Z can carry side winder air to air missiles. And the Longbow radar on Apache can also be deployed with AH1-Z.
Indian Apache will be a matter for Our Air defense network strategy and ManPads that needs upgrade to counter apache threat 
not our Vipers. 
Don't compare Apples with oranges.


----------



## Zarvan

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Helicopters are not to be pitted against helicopters. AH1Z is the fastest gunship in the world. It can rip out Through Indian armour and bunker establishments.
> Plus I think No other Gunship except AH1-Z can carry side winder air to air missiles. And the Longbow radar on Apache can also be deployed with AH1-Z.
> Indian Apache will be a matter for Our Air defense network strategy and ManPads that needs upgrade to counter apache threat
> not our Vipers.
> Don't compare Apples with oranges.


Yes that is why main question is where the hell is ANZA III ?


----------



## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Yes that is why main question is where the hell is ANZA III ?



Anza 3 was discontinued


----------



## Wolfhound

fatman17 said:


> Anza 3 was discontinued


Why, it was a good missile? Any replacement?


----------



## fatman17

Wolfhound said:


> Why, it was a good missile? Any replacement?



Not that I know off. Army has loaded up on the anza 2 as their SAM. They would love to land their hands on some more stingers.


----------



## Zarvan

fatman17 said:


> Anza 3 was discontinued


Can you ever come up with any good news ?

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## Sulman Badshah

I S I said:


> Apaches are war tested, which is superior to any other attack heli in US inventory.


both have their pros and cons 
Viper have superior speed, agility and weapon carrying capability with is 16 Hellfire+2 sidewinders on wingtips (while apache can carry 16 Hellfire and for A2A apache need to lose its hard points; ) ...Viper have sidewinder while apache carrying capability is limited to stingers 

More Viper have option of carrying longbow radar and avionics that are similar to apache especially the topowl HMD (which is built for F16 block 40) 

Apache have better range over viper

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## I S I

Sulman Badshah said:


> both have their pros and cons
> Viper have superior speed, agility and weapon carrying capability with is 16 Hellfire+2 sidewinders on wingtips (while apache can carry 16 Hellfire and for A2A apache need to lose its hard points; ) ...Viper have sidewinder while apache carrying capability is limited to stingers
> 
> More Viper have option of carrying longbow radar and avionics that are similar to apache especially the topowl HMD (which is built for F16 block 40)
> 
> Apache have better range over viper


Thanks for your input.


Btw found this on Y answers. It's helpful too. He's a former pilot.


"The Viper is an upgraded Super Cobra. The Marine Corps has been flying the Super Cobra for years while the Army flies the Apache. You need to understand that size means a lot to the Marine Corps because it fights from ships; smaller is better.
So, the Apache may be the better aircraft for the Army while the Viper is better for the Marines. The Viper has larger engines to pull the four rotor blades compared to the Super Cobra's two rotor blades.

presenting a smaller target, faster, and greater rate of climb resulting in better maneuverability than the Apache.

They are basically, equal aircraft with the Viper meeting the Marine Corps requirements better. Because of size they can put more Vipers in the same space aboard ship.

--@Hayley, The Viper is the newer of
To compare the Viper to the Apache, both carry the same weapons load. The Apache has a greater fuel consumption but, has more fuel capacity so, it still has better range than the Viper. The Viper is smaller
, the two. Yes, the Army replaced the Cobra with the Apache while the Marine Corps kept buying newer Cobras with newer electronics and better capability. The Viper is the latest of a long line of Cobras and have only been in service for a year or so. The Apache has been around for at least a couple of decades.

per Cobra to the Viper were more rotor blades and larger engines to pull them and two additional weapons stations. I believe the Cobra was first to get air-to-air capabilities but, some of the Apaches have been upgraded for it.

@ Gunny T, my first helo ride was on a CH-46. The Corps still has a few beating the air into submission but, alas, I'm afraid the beloved Phrog won't be around much longer.

I think it was "Apache Pilot" who said a helicopter is a mass of metal rotating around an oil leak, does that mean a Phrog is a mass of m
-- No problem, Hayley. The Viper is a new four-bladed Cobra, the AH-1Z. I think the last Apaches were delivered to the Army in 2007 and the Apaches are getting electronics upgrades with the same equipment, like targeting systems, as the Cobra Viper. So, they are very much equivalent. The big changes from the S
uetal rotating around two oil leaks?"

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## Sulman Badshah

I S I said:


> Thanks for your input.
> 
> 
> Btw found this on Y answers. It's helpful too. He's a former pilot.
> 
> 
> "The Viper is an upgraded Super Cobra. The Marine Corps has been flying the Super Cobra for years while the Army flies the Apache. You need to understand that size means a lot to the Marine Corps because it fights from ships; smaller is better.
> So, the Apache may be the better aircraft for the Army while the Viper is better for the Marines. The Viper has larger engines to pull the four rotor blades compared to the Super Cobra's two rotor blades.
> 
> presenting a smaller target, faster, and greater rate of climb resulting in better maneuverability than the Apache.
> 
> They are basically, equal aircraft with the Viper meeting the Marine Corps requirements better. Because of size they can put more Vipers in the same space aboard ship.
> 
> --@Hayley, The Viper is the newer of
> To compare the Viper to the Apache, both carry the same weapons load. The Apache has a greater fuel consumption but, has more fuel capacity so, it still has better range than the Viper. The Viper is smaller
> , the two. Yes, the Army replaced the Cobra with the Apache while the Marine Corps kept buying newer Cobras with newer electronics and better capability. The Viper is the latest of a long line of Cobras and have only been in service for a year or so. The Apache has been around for at least a couple of decades.
> 
> per Cobra to the Viper were more rotor blades and larger engines to pull them and two additional weapons stations. I believe the Cobra was first to get air-to-air capabilities but, some of the Apaches have been upgraded for it.
> 
> @ Gunny T, my first helo ride was on a CH-46. The Corps still has a few beating the air into submission but, alas, I'm afraid the beloved Phrog won't be around much longer.
> 
> I think it was "Apache Pilot" who said a helicopter is a mass of metal rotating around an oil leak, does that mean a Phrog is a mass of m
> -- No problem, Hayley. The Viper is a new four-bladed Cobra, the AH-1Z. I think the last Apaches were delivered to the Army in 2007 and the Apaches are getting electronics upgrades with the same equipment, like targeting systems, as the Cobra Viper. So, they are very much equivalent. The big changes from the S
> uetal rotating around two oil leaks?"



thanks for sharing ... he also described that both are very much equivalent 
both posses certain adv and dis adv opn each other ... PAA should go for either one of them and that is AH1Z that have been offered


----------



## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> Can you ever come up with any good news ?


Yeah how about joint production og FM-90 to be started In 2017. Just found out by an air defence officer .
P.S. pictures to be uploaded by this Saturday


----------



## Wolfhound

fatman17 said:


> Not that I know off. Army has loaded up on the anza 2 as their SAM. They would love to land their hands on some more stingers.


Anza Mark III | Page 6
Do you remember this thread? @WebMaster and you stated that we were producing the mk-3


----------



## Sulman Badshah

kaonalpha said:


> Yeah how about joint production og FM-90 to be started In 2017. Just found out by an air defence officer .
> P.S. pictures to be uploaded by this Saturday


FM90 B have been procured by air defence .... and there is no contract about Joint production about that


----------



## kaonalpha

Sulman Badshah said:


> FM90 B have been procured by air defence .... and there is no contract about Joint production about that


Can't take a joke can you


----------



## fatman17

Zarvan said:


> Can you ever come up with any good news ?



Cant have everything


----------



## Viper0011.

Assault Rifle said:


> ^^ Actually Pakistan Vipers will not have longbow radars unlike Apache AH-64E.
> Also they will be armed with AGM-114R-3 and not the more advanced fire and forget AGM-114L3 plus they will be fitted with the less powerful 401c engine instead of 701D engine.



And the point is that these will STILL kick the sheeet out of inbound mechanized divisions and columns with great accuracy. These will be used against terrorists and India (in case of a war), not Star Wars Alien Ships with Lasers on them. If you ask your military planners as to why they seriously objected to this sale, you'll know the seriously scary answer.

A THOUSAND Hellfire (emphasis on "HELL" and then "Fire" please) will literally create Hellfire on anything built out of metal upon contact. Somehow, your generals knew it very well and objected to this sale like crazy, compared to your own comprehension!!!

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## SQ8

Assault Rifle said:


> ^^ Actually Pakistan Vipers will not have longbow radars unlike Apache AH-64E.
> Also they will be armed with AGM-114R-3 and not the more advanced fire and forget AGM-114L3 plus they will be fitted with the less powerful 401c engine instead of 701D engine.


Disproven before. Please take your low life troll butt and not comment on it anymore.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Viper0011. said:


> And the point is that these will STILL kick the sheeet out of inbound mechanized divisions and columns with great accuracy. These will be used against terrorists and India (in case of a war), not Star Wars Alien Ships with Lasers on them. If you ask your military planners as to why they seriously objected to this sale, you'll know the seriously scary answer.
> 
> A THOUSAND Hellfire (emphasis on "HELL" and then "Fire" please) will literally create Hellfire on anything built out of metal upon contact. Somehow, your generals knew it very well and objected to this sale like crazy, compared to your own comprehension!!!


Sir, 
I wanted to know what advantage does having an air to air missile in a Heli accomplish if it is known that these are never going to fight against an other heli?


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> I wanted to know what advantage does having an air to air missile in a Heli accomplish if it is known that these are never going to fight against an other heli?



Can shoot down assault helicopters

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## fatman17

Viper0011. said:


> And the point is that these will STILL kick the sheeet out of inbound mechanized divisions and columns with great accuracy. These will be used against terrorists and India (in case of a war), not Star Wars Alien Ships with Lasers on them. If you ask your military planners as to why they seriously objected to this sale, you'll know the seriously scary answer.
> 
> A THOUSAND Hellfire (emphasis on "HELL" and then "Fire" please) will literally create Hellfire on anything built out of metal upon contact. Somehow, your generals knew it very well and objected to this sale like crazy, compared to your own comprehension!!!



Actually India objects to everything Pakistan purchases. They can't help it.

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## MastanKhan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> I wanted to know what advantage does having an air to air missile in a Heli accomplish if it is known that these are never going to fight against an other heli?



Hi,
it is to shoot them at aircraft---fighter, bombers etc etc----and other choppers.

The base can inform the chopper of incoming enemy aircraft----the chopper lifts up and hovers behind trees, a mountain a building---and the moment the aircraft flies by---it takes aim and fires the missile.

But the goal of eevery helicopter pilot is to snare a fighter aircraft-----. As they hover behind a cover---the fighter aircraft goes by at high speed---the helicopter pops up---gets a lock and lets lose the air to air missile----right up the tail pipe.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Actually India objects to everything Pakistan purchases. They can't help it.


Indian govt always react like school kid

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## Mughal-Prince

Oscar said:


> Disproven before. Please take your low life troll butt and not comment on it anymore.



 I love you mmmmuuuuaaah


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## zindapak

How much minimum no. of attack helicopters are required to defend the eastern border?


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## fatman17

zindapak said:


> How much minimum no. of attack helicopters are required to defend the eastern border?



India has 8 IBGs each with armoured columns. If they all attack simultaneously then atleast a 100 armed attack helos would be required which is not feasible. Therefore army has invested heavily in ATGWs.

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## PakArmyFTW

Mi-35s and AH-1Z Vipers would definitely look sweet in our arsenal. Mi-35 is such a badass and the AH-1Z will turn everything into minced meat.

I'm curious, does one of them have any noticeable advantages over the other one?


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## waz

A few things folks.

Here is a great pocket PDF on the Viper.

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/iceman/AH1Z_PG_04_web.pdf

I hope Pakistan is eventually going to get the Cobra Radar system (equivalent to the Longbow on the Apache) with the helicopters, this is the AN/ APG-78 (wing mounted) below.









This will make the machine even more incredible. I'm surprised that Pakistan did not request this, as there is no mention of it.

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## ZAC1

mingle said:


> Indian govt always react like school kid


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## arif hamza

Whhhhhhhhhhhy ? Can't we buy from china or russia these vipers are abnormally expensive 


And aren't we able to produce our own helicos (ofcourse with the help of china or russia) ?


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## araz

mumtazkhan525 said:


> Good Addition Thanks ! Pak Army


I dont know why you are just posting similar oneliners all over the place. Please avoid doing this. Welcome to the forum but stay and learn how and what to write before shooting off the keyboard.

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## Stealth

araz said:


> I dont know why you are just posting similar oneliners all over the place. Please avoid doing this. Welcome to the forum but stay and learn how and what to write before shooting off the keyboard.



I think there is some restriction applied on the joining. When you join, you're unable to start thread till 10-50 comments/posts. Might be he is increasing his posts just to fullfill requirements to start a thread.


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## Caprxl

Stealth said:


> I think there is some restriction applied on the joining. When you join, you're unable to start thread till 10-50 comments/posts. Might be he is increasing his posts just to fullfill requirements to start a thread.


Spot on  
Just like my this post


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## araz

Stealth said:


> I think there is some restriction applied on the joining. When you join, you're unable to start thread till 10-50 comments/posts. Might be he is increasing his posts just to fullfill requirements to start a thread.


I agree. But this practice degrades the quality of the forum and should not be allowed. We do have a responsibility to maintain the quality of the board.
Its a she by the way not a he!


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## Imran Khan

when delivery start damn its too late . jab sary taliban mar jaay gay tab deen ga amreeca ?????????

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## HAIDER

Imran Khan said:


> when delivery start damn its too late . jab sary taliban mar jaay gay tab deen ga amreeca ?????????


Sarkaroo inta ghussa acha nahi...first they gather excessive Viper, then Boeing got paid, then they move to Boeing facility , then they order required upgrades , then do installation , then they test ....and at last they handover to GAO for delivery....howz that ???...forget to add, a short training session for Pak staff who will hand these Vipers.



araz said:


> I agree. But this practice degrades the quality of the forum and should not be allowed. We do have a responsibility to maintain the quality of the board.
> Its a she by the way not a he!


Raise this issue while ago, because sometime Rookies start question thread, which make no sense. That can be easily fit in questio answer thread....

AH1z Zulu preserve in boneyard.

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## Bratva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/622305146622636032

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## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> A few things folks.
> 
> Here is a great pocket PDF on the Viper.
> 
> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/iceman/AH1Z_PG_04_web.pdf
> 
> I hope Pakistan is eventually going to get the Cobra Radar system (equivalent to the Longbow on the Apache) with the helicopters, this is the AN/ APG-78 (wing mounted) below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will make the machine even more incredible. I'm surprised that Pakistan did not request this, as there is no mention of it.


*15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, *

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems. Also included are system integration and testing, software development and integration, aircraft ferry, support equipment, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, *



I guess we can order the radar in the future?

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## S.U.R.B.

waz said:


> I guess we can order the radar in the future?



Good things come to those who wait.


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## waz

S.U.R.B. said:


> Good things come to those who wait.



I hope so. The machine really comes into it's own with the Cobra version of the Longbow. It's a tad annoying India will be getting their's with the Apache order, around 12 I think.


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## ares

waz said:


> I hope so. The machine really comes into it's own with the Cobra version of the Longbow. It's a tad annoying India will be getting their's with the Apache order,* around 12 I think*.



22 Apaches in first order for the air force and then 39 for the army.

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## waz

ares said:


> 22 Apaches in first order for the air force and then 39 for the army.



Thanks for the info.


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## saadee

Here you are waiting for Ah1z and on the other side Hussein Haqqani is opposing the deal. In his recent article, he wrote that Pakistan will use these helis against India. Wall street journal published his article says why are we sending this attack heli to Pakistan

Why Are We Sending This Attack Helicopter to Pakistan?

Past behavior indicates Islamabad won’t use the Viper and other U.S. weapons against jhadists
by Hussein Haqqani



Imran Khan said:


> when delivery start damn its too late . jab sary taliban mar jaay gay tab deen ga amreeca ?????????



Bhai jaab apnay he ganday hoon tau doosroon say kiya gilla? Haqqani deal ko oppose kaar raha hai. 
Why Are We Sending This Attack Helicopter to Pakistan? - WSJ

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## Quwa

Haqqani can say what he wants, but the U.S isn't going to jeopardize its ties with the Pakistani Army over some delusional and self-entitled politician.

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## Myth_buster_1

HAIDER said:


> Sarkaroo inta ghussa acha nahi...first they gather excessive Viper, then Boeing got paid, then they move to Boeing facility , then they order required upgrades , then do installation , then they test ....and at last they handover to GAO for delivery....howz that ???...forget to add, a short training session for Pak staff who will hand these Vipers.
> 
> 
> Raise this issue while ago, because sometime Rookies start question thread, which make no sense. That can be easily fit in questio answer thread....
> 
> AH1z Zulu preserve in boneyard.



These are not Zullu these are W


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## Super Falcon

This haqqani was friend of zardari all of these enemies eaten pak become amb of pak to US and see his mouth now haqqani is teaitor and his master too send them straight to hell what prob he has why so much indian love


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## Super Falcon

I think pak army get MI 35 E before these AH1Z supercobra i bet you all

And pak army needs them for india thats why we buy hellfire to destroy Indian tank taliban dont use tanks some sense should be put in


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## HttpError

Pakistan at-least needs 50+ These Super Cobras.


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## Super Falcon

HttpError said:


> Pakistan at-least needs 50+ These Super Cobras.


Dear hold your horses we need only 15 are enough
PA already buying Z 10 as lighg attack helicopter.
AH1Z Super vipers are best in its class. But indian army buying Apache which is inferior to supercobra

AH1Z Supercobra price tag something around 22 to 25 mil each

Mi 28 Havoc is as good as apache and MI 28N is awsome machine it can destroy heavy armour and can target air to air targets which supercobra cannot do effectively.

MI 28 havic price Tag 15 to 18 mil each and it is far superior than AH1Z supercobra

Reason why we are still want this machine AH1Z as we getting Z 10 and MI 35E because we can use it for naval mission

Most of Supercobras used by US marines and also they used in US aircraft carriers

15 AH1Z Super cobras are Enough mostly used in sea coastal areas

20 old cobras we can modify and use them along with Z 10 to terrorists 

20 Z10 helicopters are goid to go for support role to infantry 

15 MI 35E Hind wd buying it mostly to be used by SSG

20 to 25 MI 28 havoc we need to destroy heavy armour if india and give our infantry something when they see apache they knew they have a warhorse like MI 28 which can look after apaches with air to air missiles etc


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## unleashed

Super Falcon said:


> Apache which is inferior to supercobra


Come on mate, You cant compare both..
Both are meant for different roles..

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## Super Falcon

unleashed said:


> Come on mate, You cant compare both..
> Both are meant for different roles..


Yes dear j totaly agree with you but mater of fact role of apache which helicopter plays in PA this is a issue as india ordered 22 apaches

Pakistan army needs MI 28 havoc to have something match apache all other attack heli in PA cannot fire air to air missile precisly as that was they not meant for.

MI 28 havoc made by ruusia keeping in mind it has to face apachs in war and gave the toys to compete with apache

MI 35 we buying is mostly for SSG


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## unleashed

Super Falcon said:


> MI 35 we buying is mostly for SSG



I have heard that only 4 MI 35 are coming. Dont you think 4 are not enough to meet PA requirement??

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## princefaisal

Super Falcon said:


> Yes dear j totaly agree with you but mater of fact role of apache which helicopter plays in PA this is a issue as india ordered 22 apaches
> 
> Pakistan army needs MI 28 havoc to have something match apache all other attack heli in PA cannot fire air to air missile precisly as that was they not meant for.


WZ-10 and Zulus helicopters can fire air to air missiles. Up to 8 PL-90 AAMs can be carried on WZ-10, while 02 Aim-9 missiles can be carried on Zulu. So Apaches can be effectively dealt with WZ-10s.


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## Super Falcon

princefaisal said:


> WZ-10 and Zulus helicopters can fire air to air missiles. Up to 8 PL-90 AAMs can be carried on WZ-10, while 02 Aim-9 missiles can be carried on Zulu. So Apaches can be effectively dealt with WZ-10s.


Dear i agree with you but Z 10 i dont think so can be used as heavy fighting role we nedd Havoc to counter indian agression to take our arned force in future land warfare Z 10 is good but if it that good to kill apache than chine never built Z 19 something like that


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## princefaisal

WZ-19 is a light attack helicopter while WZ-10 is a heavy attack helicopter.

The higher power rated engines of AH-64E are designed to lift a much heavier payload of 3,000 kg as compared to 1,500 kg in WZ-10. Even in comparative take-off weight, AH-64 E at 10,433 kg is much heavier than the WZ-10 (7000 kg).

*Weapons:-*
AH-64E: 1 x 30mm M 230 Chain Gun, AIM-92 Sidewinder missiles, Hydra 70mm and/or CRV7 70 mm air-to-ground rockets, AGM-114 Hellfire variants, AIM-32 Stingers, Sidearm ARMs/Starstreak ARMs etc,

WZ-10: 23/30 mm auto cannons, 30/40mm AGLs/14.5 mm Gattling guns, 57/90mm rockets, HJ-8/HJ9 air-to-surface missiles and TY 90/PL series of air-to-air missiles

So Mi-28 havoc or KA-52 should be acquired.


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## black-hawk_101

US should give Pakistan about 30-50 of them.

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## araz

black-hawk_101 said:


> US should give Pakistan about 30-50 of them.


Naa US nay langar khol rakha hai kay har bhikari ko helicopter day dayga. Kaka kuch hosh kar. 
Even if you want the US to give you helos you need to justify why they need to do so. Can you justifty 30-50 machines to fight terrorists. Plus who is going to pay for it. The 15 we are buying along with armaments are costing us a billion. Where are you going fo get another couple of billion dollars from

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## Quwa

black-hawk_101 said:


> US should give Pakistan about 30-50 of them.


I prefer Pakistan have as few of these as possible, like a squadron dedicated to counter-insurgency operations. The rest of the attack helicopter force should be comprised of an alternative such as WZ-10.

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## Blue Marlin

unleashed said:


> I have heard that only 4 MI 35 are coming. Dont you think 4 are not enough to meet PA requirement??


4 is the first block. Eventually you shall receive 36 in total. The money is cleared for 4 mil 35 so it's just a matter of signing on the dotted line. Also i heard they are already built so its just a matter of delivery.


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## black-hawk_101

Mark Sien said:


> I prefer Pakistan have as few of these as possible, like a squadron dedicated to counter-insurgency operations. The rest of the attack helicopter force should be comprised of an alternative such as WZ-10.


Yeah! China is the one which hasn't played any role in war on Terror. China should give Pakistan free of cost about 90-100 Z-10Ps in 3 Batches. Like 30+30+40. Also, PAA is buying new Mi-35s too.


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## Viper0011.

Super Falcon said:


> Dear hold your horses we need only 15 are enough
> PA already buying Z 10 as lighg attack helicopter.
> AH1Z Super vipers are best in its class. But indian army buying Apache which is inferior to supercobra
> 
> AH1Z Supercobra price tag something around 22 to 25 mil each
> 
> Mi 28 Havoc is as good as apache and MI 28N is awsome machine it can destroy heavy armour and can target air to air targets which supercobra cannot do effectively.
> 
> MI 28 havic price Tag 15 to 18 mil each and it is far superior than AH1Z supercobra
> 
> Reason why we are still want this machine AH1Z as we getting Z 10 and MI 35E because we can use it for naval mission
> 
> Most of Supercobras used by US marines and also they used in US aircraft carriers
> 
> 15 AH1Z Super cobras are Enough mostly used in sea coastal areas
> 
> 20 old cobras we can modify and use them along with Z 10 to terrorists
> 
> 20 Z10 helicopters are goid to go for support role to infantry
> 
> 15 MI 35E Hind wd buying it mostly to be used by SSG
> 
> 20 to 25 MI 28 havoc we need to destroy heavy armour if india and give our infantry something when they see apache they knew they have a warhorse like MI 28 which can look after apaches with air to air missiles etc




You are creating a maintenance nightmare with so many platforms.....why don't you come up with two (may be three) platforms and save many, many millions in creating support infrastructure. So like Heavy Combat, you could get Mi-28's, and for light - medium combat, either go for the Viper or Z-10's. And for medium combat and special forces, you can go for Mi-35. I am keeping the basic transporters out of this as I am referring to the combat choppers.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Viper0011. said:


> You are creating a maintenance nightmare with so many platforms.....why don't you come up with two (may be three) platforms and save many, many millions in creating support infrastructure. So like Heavy Combat, you could get Mi-28's, and for light - medium combat, either go for the Viper or Z-10's. And for medium combat and special forces, you can go for Mi-35. I am keeping the basic transporters out of this as I am referring to the combat choppers.


Sir,
PA operates the Mi-17 and Mi 35 share similar engine so it might be a good choice. 
The 15 Zulu's might be the last induction from USA.

The Z-10 is the future and Pakistan is thinking to use the same engine for the ATAK-T129 though that requires structural upgrades...Both Z10 and T-129 might have similar avionics.


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## Viper0011.

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> PA operates the Mi-17 and Mi 35 share similar engine so it might be a good choice.
> The 15 Zulu's might be the last induction from USA.
> 
> The Z-10 is the future and Pakistan is thinking to use the same engine for the ATAK-T129 though that requires structural upgrades...Both Z10 and T-129 might have similar avionics.




ATAK will require approval from the West and it may get denied due to engine related TOT. The remainder, you still have 4 different platforms. I just think its too many


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Viper0011. said:


> ATAK will require approval from the West and it may get denied due to engine related TOT. The remainder, you still have 4 different platforms. I just think its too many


Sir, the Mi-35's are not going to be part of PA but they will be with ANF (different budget). The only time PA is going to see them is when they are in maintenance of its engines. 

ATAK will have a Chinese engine if it came to Pakistan.


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## Super Falcon

I still think we need heavy gun ship like MI 28 HAVOC


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## unleashed

blue marlin said:


> 4 is the first block. Eventually you shall receive 36 in total. The money is cleared for 4 mil 35 so it's just a matter of signing on the dotted line. Also i heard they are already built so its just a matter of delivery.


And when the first batch gonna arrive?? by when



Super Falcon said:


> I still think we need heavy gun ship like MI 28 HAVOC


It would be a great addition. It works fine at night as well

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## Super Falcon

Yes AH1Z is goid but it is light weight and have fes limitation in war thats why they inducted apaches.

We need MI 28 havoc 20 would be enough and yes best machine at night


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## Blue Marlin

unleashed said:


> And when the first batch gonna arrive?? by when
> 
> 
> It would be a great addition. It works fine at night as well


That a question that can only be answered by Pakistani politicians


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## jhungary

Super Falcon said:


> Yes AH1Z is goid but it is light weight and have fes limitation in war thats why they inducted apaches.
> 
> We need MI 28 havoc 20 would be enough and yes best machine at night



That is not why the US Army adopt the apache....

If you are talking about the early version of AH-1 then yes, those are Light Gunship, and a pure gunship which used to only support armoured column, the Army adopted Apache and phase out the Cobra is due to the conflict of Armoured Doctrine between US Army and US Marine. Which the US Army use tanks to sphearhead a point attack and the MAarine use them as infantry support.

AH-1Z is on the same classification than an Apache, and they are adapted to use in both stand alone capacity and support capacity.

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## Super Falcon

jhungary said:


> That is not why the US Army adopt the apache....
> 
> If you are talking about the early version of AH-1 then yes, those are Light Gunship, and a pure gunship which used to only support armoured column, the Army adopted Apache and phase out the Cobra is due to the conflict of Armoured Doctrine between US Army and US Marine. Which the US Army use tanks to sphearhead a point attack and the MAarine use them as infantry support.
> 
> AH-1Z is on the same classification than an Apache, and they are adapted to use in both stand alone capacity and support capacity.


Than why US MARINES dont use Apache they use Supercobra only


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## jhungary

Super Falcon said:


> Than why US MARINES dont use Apache they use Supercobra only



lol, why the US navy did not use UH-60 but go for SH-60?

They cannot be folded and stow in ships...

Also being the only branch still uses UH-1N, they go hand in hand with AH-1.

Look, the Marine have a different doctrine about how they uses their tank than the Army. The Marine uses tank as a traditional Infantry support role, and for that, they need to operate in conjunction to infantry (or marines) and the Cobra was designed from ground up as a infantry support gunship (The reason why they ditch the UH-1 Gunship and gone for dedicated AH-1 Cobra gunship in the first place) 

But that was then, now the role are pretty much the same, just the Marine do not have the budget needed to redesign an apache and use them on the ship, plus since UH-1 and AH-1 share 80-85% similarity, they save a lot of money by keep upgrading the cobra.

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## Sulman Badshah

Some Images of AH1Z with Longbow radar and Full payload(16 hellfire+2sidewinders)

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## Super Falcon

N


jhungary said:


> lol, why the US navy did not use UH-60 but go for SH-60?
> 
> They cannot be folded and stow in ships...
> 
> Also being the only branch still uses UH-1N, they go hand in hand with AH-1.
> 
> Look, the Marine have a different doctrine about how they uses their tank than the Army. The Marine uses tank as a traditional Infantry support role, and for that, they need to operate in conjunction to infantry (or marines) and the Cobra was designed from ground up as a infantry support gunship (The reason why they ditch the UH-1 Gunship and gone for dedicated AH-1 Cobra gunship in the first place)
> 
> But that was then, now the role are pretty much the same, just the Marine do not have the budget needed to redesign an apache and use them on the ship, plus since UH-1 and AH-1 share 80-85% similarity, they save a lot of money by keep upgrading the cobra.


Nothing impossible in millitary once you have will no difference between uh 60 and sh 60 only difference is radar weapon etc entire machjne is same only rotors are folding


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## jhungary

Super Falcon said:


> N
> 
> Nothing impossible in millitary once you have will no difference between uh 60 and sh 60 only difference is radar weapon etc entire machjne is same only rotors are folding



lol, its more complicated than you think

Folded Rotarblade mean a redesign of an Engine and rotor motor, Folding back blade mean a redesign of rotor shaft, new radar and sonar mean new weapon system, and then you also have to consider buoyancy, meaning redesign of the cabin shape and also anti-corrosive material painted on outside, that does mean the only common thing between the UH-60 and SH-60 is simply the outline and the landing gear.

And when you have to change that much, it's better off you just redesign an helicopter from group up.

You can land a UH-60 at a ship once or twice, only if there are an emergency and you cannot store them on board

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What is so special about them? Vs Chinese Helicopters


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## ZAC1

when we are getting our first heli


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## C130

waz said:


> A few things folks.
> 
> Here is a great pocket PDF on the Viper.
> 
> http://incolor.inetnebr.com/iceman/AH1Z_PG_04_web.pdf
> 
> I hope Pakistan is eventually going to get the Cobra Radar system (equivalent to the Longbow on the Apache) with the helicopters, this is the AN/ APG-78 (wing mounted) below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will make the machine even more incredible. I'm surprised that Pakistan did not request this, as there is no mention of it.



nice I didn't even this existed

but if it's mounted that low and not above the rotor then it can't hide and see and pop to kill it target then pop back down??



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What is so special about them? Vs Chinese Helicopters


battle tested and proven. i wouldn't say it's leagues apart of other attack helicopters. guess it comes down price and preference.


I know you are very anti america and pro chinese, so I can guess you are unhappy


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

On a high level ,

Comparatively , both platforms US / Chinese have main components covered
A machine gun , that takes out vehicles / units

Then the Rockets which can target Tanks / Buildings

Both systems come with Optical systems that give detailed ground closeups to crew on board.

I read some where performance wise the payload capacity of the US unit was higher however , if you increase the number
of Chinese units in your forces the balance is met

Plus the Super Cobras have not been in real war vs real enemy anyways


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## Irfan Baloch

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Plus the Super Cobras have not been in real war vs real enemy anyways


yea? 

as far as I know Turks deployed them against PKK and the US marines have videos uploaded flying them in Afghanistan and Iraq


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

But its not like that they went up against enemy that had anti aircraft guns or Missiles someone like Russia or France or UK etc the foes these helicopters were used against were quite limited in their abilities

I just find that close to 1 Billion Dollars for Super Cobras , is a hefty amount for 15 or so units

I billion we should have received at least 40 Helicopters fully equipped with 5,000 missiles

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## cabatli_53

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Plus the Super Cobras have not been in real war vs real enemy anyways



USA





Turkiye







AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> But its not like that they went up against enemy that had anti aircraft guns or Missiles someone like Russia or France or UK etc the foes these helicopters were used against were quite limited in their abilities
> 
> I just find that close to 1 Billion Dollars for Super Cobras , is a hefty amount for 15 or so units




Operating gunships on dangerous zones which is protected by radars and surface to air missiles are not a realistic and rationalist military move since Gunships are an easy target for such missiles even If they have electronic warfare systems onboard so Firstly the radars and missile batteries are cleaned by airforce, Then gunships supporting land armoured/infantry troops, takes action in battlefield.


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## Path-Finder

Irfan Baloch said:


> yea?
> 
> as far as I know Turks deployed them against PKK and the US marines have videos uploaded flying them in Afghanistan and Iraq



Biggest Use of Cobra was in Vietnam War!


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## al_asad_al_mulk

as i believe Pakistan is going for Zulus


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No they had Bell , back in Vietnam war


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## Irfan Baloch

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> No they had Bell , back in Vietnam war


Vietnam war snap



ge


short clipof cobra re vietnam 1:30 onward


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## The Vicious Kind

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I just find that close to 1 Billion Dollars for Super Cobras , is a hefty amount for 15 or so units
> 
> I billion we should have received at least 40 Helicopters fully equipped with 5,000 missiles


 
$952 million for AH1-Z with associated equipment.

32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)
1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers
36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers
17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems
30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems
19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl
17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe
17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems
17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets
18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers
15 Joint Mission Planning Systems
 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.
 The south Koreans were offered 36 , plus associated equipment for 2.6 billion dollars .


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## nomi007

did congress approve the deal


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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> did congress approve the deal


yes .. .


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## Super Falcon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> But its not like that they went up against enemy that had anti aircraft guns or Missiles someone like Russia or France or UK etc the foes these helicopters were used against were quite limited in their abilities
> 
> I just find that close to 1 Billion Dollars for Super Cobras , is a hefty amount for 15 or so units
> 
> I billion we should have received at least 40 Helicopters fully equipped with 5,000 missiles


1.5 bil was a deal for 2 mistral class lpd from france for russia huge shipe 50 mill extra out of 1 bil and what u get 15 supercobra

I personally against super cobra purchase


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## waz

C130 said:


> nice I didn't even this existed
> 
> but if it's mounted that low and not above the rotor then it can't hide and see and pop to kill it target then pop back down??
> 
> 
> battle tested and proven. i wouldn't say it's leagues apart of other attack helicopters. guess it comes down price and preference.



Hi Pete, I asked the US army Apache pilots about this exact thing, and they said that shouldn't be a problem, and that in the Viper's case they would just be exposing a hard point, locking target and releasing ordinance. I asked him what he though of the Viper as a comparison to the Apache, he said it is every bit the Apache's equal, just faster! But did stress the roles they play.He said the USMC pilots were some lucky guys to be getting the machine. He also knew about Pakistan's order.


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## C130

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> But its not like that they went up against enemy that had anti aircraft guns or Missiles someone like Russia or France or UK etc the foes these helicopters were used against were quite limited in their abilities
> 
> I just find that close to 1 Billion Dollars for Super Cobras , is a hefty amount for 15 or so units
> 
> I billion we should have received at least 40 Helicopters fully equipped with 5,000 missiles



40 helicopters+5,000 missiles for only $1 billion 


40 super cobras=$30 mil a pop so right there that's $1.2 billion, 5,000 hellfires=$650 million so that's $1.850 billion and this isn't including spare engines and other stuff and what ever else would go along with the deal.

you would be looking at $2 to $2.5 billion which isn't really all that bad considering what you are getting


unless you are talking Russian,Chinese, or the Turkish attack helicopters then I can see you probably for the same kinda package $1 billion for the Russian Helicopter since I think the Mi-28N is half the price of the Viper and the Ataka-V is a third the price of a Hellfire II-R, Chinese would probably be $1.5 billion, and the Turkish around the same the Viper maybe a tad cheaper overall $1.8 billion to$ 2. billion


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## Sulman Badshah

C130 said:


> 40 helicopters+5,000 missiles for only $1 billion
> 
> 
> 40 super cobras=$30 mil a pop so right there that's $1.2 billion, 5,000 hellfires=$650 million so that's $1.850 billion and this isn't including spare engines and other stuff and what ever else would go along with the deal.
> 
> you would be looking at $2 to $2.5 billion which isn't really all that bad considering what you are getting
> 
> 
> unless you are talking Russian,Chinese, or the Turkish attack helicopters then I can see you probably for the same kinda package $1 billion for the Russian Helicopter since I think the Mi-28N is half the price of the Viper and the Ataka-V is a third the price of a Hellfire II-R, Chinese would probably be $1.5 billion, and the Turkish around the same the Viper maybe a tad cheaper overall $1.8 billion to$ 2. billion


we are recieving 1000 hellfire and 15 Vipers for 952 M USD 
t


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## C130

Sulman Badshah said:


> we are recieving 1000 hellfire and 15 Vipers for 952 M USD
> t



that's not a bad deal.

15x30=$450 million 1000x100,000=$100 million so $550 million what the other $400 goes on I wonder


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Irfan Baloch said:


> Vietnam war snap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ge
> 
> 
> short clipof cobra re vietnam 1:30 onward



Thank you for share , never kenw cobra was in vietnam I thought it was a helicopter invented after vietnam ended

I think after the war Pentegon found importance of a gunship


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## Syed Zabih Ullah

Someone just forgot to mention it does not only included 15 vipers it also included following equipment which in all means sounds good have a LOOK:

32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)

1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers

36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers

17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems

30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems

19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems

32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl

17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe

17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems

17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets

18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers

15 Joint Mission Planning Systems

17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.


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## Blue Marlin

*US company to upgrade Pakistani helicopters*

The US Department of Defence has awarded a contract worth more than $85 million to Textron’s Bell Helicopter division to develop updates for weapons systems for the Pakistani and US helicopter fleets, the US Navy said in a press release on Thursday.


In April 2015, the US Department of State approved a $925 million foreign military sale to Pakistan for a fleet of attack helicopters and Hellfire missiles. The principal contractors on that deal were Boeing, Bell, General Electric and Lockheed Martin.


The new contract calls on Bell to develop updates for weapons systems in support of the US Navy and Pakistani government helicopter fleets. Bell’s work on the weapons systems will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas, and is expected to be completed in August 2020.


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## Nike

*DoD awards Pakistan AH-1Z contract*
*Gareth Jennings, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
25 August 2015


The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Bell Helicopter a USD581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.




Pakistan has requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z attack helicopters. The DoD has awarded a contract for what appears to be the first two such helicopters. (IHS/Patrick Allen)

The contract, which was announced by the DoD on 26 August but awarded the day before, covers the manufacture and delivery of 15 Lot 12 UH-1Y Venom utility helicopters, 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, one Lot 13 UH-1Y, and 21 auxiliary fuel kits for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and government of Pakistan.

Pakistan requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters in April, and this announcement is the first official confirmation that a deal has been signed.

DoD awards Pakistan AH-1Z contract - IHS Jane's 360

it's been officially concluded, Congrats Pakistan

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## Sulman Badshah

madokafc said:


> 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs


means bell will produce total 19x12 (218) vipers .. 15 for pakistan and rest for US


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## C130

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Thank you for share , never kenw cobra was in vietnam I thought it was a helicopter invented after vietnam ended
> 
> I think after the war Pentegon found importance of a gunship












loo at this 1:07 you see how dark it is, you wouldn't know death is just right above. pitch black I would be scared to death.

no wonder terrorist rats are deathly scared of the AC-130

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## Thunder Bolt

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Bell Helicopter a USD581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.

The contract, which was announced by the DoD on 26 August but awarded the day before, covers the manufacture and delivery of 15 Lot 12 UH-1Y Venom utility helicopters, 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, one Lot 13 UH-1Y, and 21 auxiliary fuel kits for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and government of Pakistan.

Pakistan requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters in April, and this announcement is the first official confirmation that a deal has been signed. While the notification does not say how many of the 15 helicopters have been signed for at this stage, it states that 10% (USD57.9 million) of the overall contract value covers the sale to the government of Pakistan. This suggests that this is an initial deal for the first two helicopters only, with contracts for the remaining 13 (plus spares and support) to follow.

According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018. The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".

The contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster its rotary-winged attack capabilities. As well as procuring the 15 AH-1Zs to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms, Pakistan has also evaluated the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters, which has included flying them operationally on counter-terrorism missions, and is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. On 19 August it was announced that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters,

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## Quwa

So the order is a go, but it's interesting how low profile this deal has been compared to the F-16s. I recall there even being a formal signing ceremony for it.

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## Kakaspai

Thunder Bolt said:


> According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018. The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".


They will be delivered by the end of august 2018.I hope we wont hhave to use them in waziristan by then

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## Stealth

Mark Sien said:


> So the order is a go, but it's interesting how low profile this deal has been compared to the F-16s. I recall there even being a formal signing ceremony for it.



No low profile deal... Pakistan requested for the gunships before Swat Operation and (expected) US show zero interest on our request. That was the reason Pakistan went for Jordian AH1F. When the state department particularly Pentagon realized that the new Pakistan Command soon go for the Russian, they start offering 15 AH1z to Pakistan all of a sudden. The day when Chinese 3 Z10 arrived and exactly the next day Russian Ambassador talking about Mi35 deal btw Pak Russia. Americans approve Pakistan's request aur woh bhi denay ko chezain tyaar hogaye jo hamnay maangi bhi nahe theen LOLzzz These Americans are *******!

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## IceCold

And we have neighbours who think Pakistan is isolated, suicidal and on the verge of disintegration.

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## Beethoven

Kakaspai said:


> They will be delivered by the end of august 2018.I hope we wont hhave to use them in waziristan by then


Am sorry but these babies were never meant for waziristan....For NWA the army has developed a two pronged strategy that is using Mi-35 for COIN ops and WZ-10 the workhorse of PA Aviation.AH-1Z was meant for our eastern border just in case our neighbor wants to play smart

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## Sipahi

Thanks *Russia and China* for AH-1Z helis

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## slapshot

mshahid said:


> Thanks *Russia and China* for AH-1Z helis


We should also thank them for Mi35 and wz10

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Syed Zabih Ullah said:


> Someone just forgot to mention it does not only included 15 vipers it also included following equipment which in all means sounds good have a LOOK:
> 
> 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)
> 
> 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers
> 
> 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers
> 
> 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems
> 
> 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems
> 
> 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 
> 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl
> 
> 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe
> 
> 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems
> 
> 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets
> 
> 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers
> 
> 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems
> 
> 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.




Lack of spare engines would be something of concern , if we had option to extent the numbers it would have been ideal


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sadly these are needed now to fighter terrorism , not in 2018 it would be too late by then

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## Quwa

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Sadly these are needed now to fighter terrorism , not in 2018 it would be too late by then


If insh'Allah there is no COIN work to be done by then, PAA can station these AH-1Z along the coast line to support the Marines.



Stealth said:


> No low profile deal... Pakistan requested for Gunships before Swat Operation and US show ZERO interest. Pakistan went for Jordian AH1F. When US government and Pentagon realized that New Pakistan Command will consider Russian gunships over Cobra's because Americans not showing any interest over Pakistan Army request, they start offering 15 AH1z to Pakistan all of a sudden the day when Chinese 3 Z10 arrived. Next day Russian Ambassador talking about Mi35 deal btw Pak Russia. These Americans are *******!


I hope PAA builds a large dedicated attack helicopter fleet around the WZ-10. A considerable number (70-90) of those equipped with Hellfire-like missiles would be a huge capability boost.

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## ArsalanKhan21

Stealth said:


> When US government and Pentagon realized that Pakistan Command will consider Russian gunships over Cobra's .... when Chinese 3 Z10 arrived. Next day Russian Ambassador talking about Mi35 deal btw Pak Russia......!



Now that Pakistan has the option to buy from either China, Russia and US. So each of them try to offer us a better deal.

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## Viper0011.

Mark Sien said:


> So the order is a go, but it's interesting how low profile this deal has been compared to the F-16s. I recall there even being a formal signing ceremony for it.



When it comes to Pakistan, they try to keep it low profile now. Otherwise, there is a huge anti-Pakistan sentiment due to Indian lobby inside the US media and even in congress.

This is foreign policy and lobbying that Pakistan has failed to learn over the past many decades. You guys used you get billions in aid.....spending $ 5-10 million on a top class lobbying firm needed to be THE highest priority. I know Zardari tried to hire a few people on and off, but that was too late, the relationship with terrorism and Pakistan had already been made very clear to the world!!

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## Quwa

Viper0011. said:


> When it comes to Pakistan, they try to keep it low profile now. Otherwise, there is a huge anti-Pakistan sentiment due to Indian lobby inside the US media and even in congress.
> 
> This is foreign policy and lobbying that Pakistan has failed to learn over the past many decades. You guys used you get billions in aid.....spending $ 5-10 million on a top class lobbying firm needed to be THE highest priority. I know Zardari tried to hire a few people on and off, but that was too late, the relationship with terrorism and Pakistan had already been made very clear to the world!!


Pakistan's entire approach to the U.S needs to change. Our leaders prefer the client-patron model, but we need to transition towards maintaining a distinct and independent foreign relations policy. In turn, our defence ties with the U.S need to be commercially-oriented whereby we buy systems, and as customers, receive spare parts, maintenance support and upgrades from our income. The U.S and its commercial clients (e.g. U.K) can butt heads on a lot of issues, but the likes of U.K, Germany, etc can still buy arms from the U.S.

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## VelocuR

Not enought 15 helicopters. 

Pakistan need more than *200* AH-1Z helicopters, US should offer free of charge and provide full of supports to Pakistan as part of fake major of non-NATO ally. 

If no, we have other options with Russia and China please.


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## syedali73

VelocuR said:


> Not enought 15 helicopters.
> 
> Pakistan need more than *200* AH-1Z helicopters, US should offer free of charge and provide full of supports to Pakistan as part of fake major of non-NATO ally.
> 
> If no, we have other options with Russia and China please.


Bhai, are you feeling alright?

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## Viper0011.

Mark Sien said:


> Pakistan's entire approach to the U.S needs to change. Our leaders prefer the client-patron model, but we need to transition towards maintaining a distinct and independent foreign relations policy. In turn, our defence ties with the U.S need to be commercially-oriented whereby we buy systems, and as customers, receive spare parts, maintenance support and upgrades from our income. The U.S and its commercial clients (e.g. U.K) can butt heads on a lot of issues, but the likes of U.K, Germany, etc can still buy arms from the U.S.




What the Pakistan DOES NOT realize, is that there is a culture and a way the US works with. It is, a few MEN in SUITES, sitting down, talking about sports, people, weather and all and then getting to the business. Even in that, no emotionalism and strict business. No vis-a-vis (that gives you the client feeling). LEAVE India out of the discussion and present your case directly for yourself as to you need -16's or whatever for X purpose.

The US DOES NOT like to see military gear in front of their civilian leadership as that is LOOKED DOWN UPON. Remember, in the US, the generals are NEVER doing things the Defense or Sec of State or others do. So Pakistan generals need to realize that the US is polite enough to welcome them and meet them. But they want men in blue suits who can talk about stuff that's related to business, economy, stocks and all. This is the culture Pakistan needs to adapt to show an independent foreign policy and build relationships.

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## VelocuR

syedali73 said:


> Bhai, are you feeling alright?



Yaar I am alright of course. 

What's special thing about major non-NATO ally (very special bullshitting status) to Pakistan?


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## VCheng

VelocuR said:


> Yaar I am alright of course.
> 
> What's special thing about major non-NATO ally (very special bullshitting status) to Pakistan?



What's special? Billions and billions of dollars.


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## RazorMC

2018 is three years away. I'd never say no to American tech, but the Russians seem to be offering better deals wrt delivery times and options.

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## aliyusuf

3 years is a long time. A lot can happen in the meanwhile. Situations can change ... priorities and requirements may change too. I will wait till the gunships actually arrive in Pakistan and then talk about where and how they should be used.


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## New World

RazorMC said:


> 2018 is three years away. I'd never say no to American tech, but the Russians seem to be offering better deals wrt delivery times and options.


bhaiya ji jaldbazi na kejye abhi tak india aur russia ki talaq nahy hui hai..

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## Stealth

VelocuR said:


> Not enought 15 helicopters.
> 
> Pakistan need more than *200* AH-1Z helicopters, US should offer free of charge and provide full of supports to Pakistan as part of fake major of non-NATO ally.
> 
> If no, we have other options with Russia and China please.



ye Diecast model nahe day rahay asal hain.. petroool say chalnay walay octane walay sachi....

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## Indus Pakistan

Viper0011. said:


> When it comes to Pakistan, they try to keep it low profile now. Otherwise, there is a huge anti-Pakistan sentiment due to Indian lobby inside the US media and even in congress.
> 
> This is foreign policy and lobbying that Pakistan has failed to learn over the past many decades. You guys used you get billions in aid.....spending $ 5-10 million on a top class lobbying firm needed to be THE highest priority. I know Zardari tried to hire a few people on and off, but that was too late, the relationship with terrorism and Pakistan had already been made very clear to the world!!



I have always had enormous respect for America. A nation with such power deserves respect. Now I have to admit Pakistan has such a bad image in USA that I would even call it "phobia". I think part of the reason is Pakistan's failure to adjust to Isreal. However now the huge Indian diaspora in USA is making itself felt. It has now penetrated into US media and from that podium it effectively has destroyed Pakistan.

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## Secret Service

2018....i dont think army has plans to take war on terror that long...


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## RazorMC

New World said:


> bhaiya ji jaldbazi na kejye abhi tak india aur russia ki talaq nahy hui hai..


We don't need to view small purchases from a Russian-Indian perspective.

Russians will supply arms as long as they don't pose a serious threat to India. They are not limiting themselves and neither are we.

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## VCheng

Atanz said:


> I have always had enormous respect for America. A nation with such power deserves respect. Now I have to admit Pakistan has such a bad image in USA that I would even call it "phobia". I think part of the reason is Pakistan's failure to adjust to Isreal. However now the huge Indian diaspora in USA is making itself felt. It has now penetrated into US media and from that podium it effectively has destroyed Pakistan.



Two things did great damage to Pakistan's image in USA: where OBL was found, and the attempt to blow up Times Square by the son of an Air Vice-Marshal.

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## RazorMC

Atanz said:


> I have always had enormous respect for America. A nation with such power deserves respect. Now I have to admit Pakistan has such a bad image in USA that I would even call it "phobia". I think part of the reason is Pakistan's failure to adjust to Isreal. However now the huge Indian diaspora in USA is making itself felt. It has now penetrated into US media and from that podium it effectively has destroyed Pakistan.


Israel is not the main concern imo (But still an important issue that we should address by now).

It is the failure of many OP (overseas Pakistanis) to represent the nation in a positive light.

I do my part outside Pakistan. My interactions with different nationalities have always left a positive image of me and the country I represent.

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## Khanivore

I personally think the WZ-10 and Mi-35s will make a better combination. But there is talk of Mi-28NEs which looks interesting too.

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## Saahil84

Beethoven said:


> Am sorry but these babies were never meant for waziristan....For NWA the army has developed a two pronged strategy that is using Mi-35 for COIN ops and WZ-10 the workhorse of PA Aviation.AH-1Z was meant for our eastern border just in case our neighbor wants to play smart



Isn't India offering a tender for short range air defense systems? 800 launchers and 5,000 missiles....against 19 AH-1Zs...I think they should be used in Waziristan instead. What say you?


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## Humble Analyst

Khanivore said:


> I personally think the WZ-10 and Mi-35s will make a better combination. But there is talk of Mi-28NEs which looks interesting too.


We need good armor busters, 3 years is long time hope that relation ship may not go cold and this may not become F16 story of 90s where they offered us edible oil for our money after deducting the storage charge for the lanes Pakistan never got. To long, not serious, causes delay and money is stuck so cannot buy from somewhere else. Do not like the time frame.


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## tarrar

If PD is truly interests in MI28, then PD should go for MI28 over WZ10, but then lets see what happens.


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## MastanKhan

Atanz said:


> I have always had enormous respect for America. A nation with such power deserves respect. Now I have to admit Pakistan has such a bad image in USA that I would even call it "phobia". I think part of the reason is Pakistan's failure to adjust to Isreal. However now the huge Indian diaspora in USA is making itself felt. It has now penetrated into US media and from that podium it effectively has destroyed Pakistan.




Hi,

No it is not for that reason---it is for the reason that Kiyani kept his mouth shut after the OBL raid----. That fool did not realize what that would do the image of Pakistan.

The only thing he needed to speak was the truth---that this operation was done with the permission and association with Pakistan military---but he was scared of the al Qaeda---. Kiyani the coward---saved his skin to destroy the reputation of Pakistan.

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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No it is not for that reason---it is for the reason that Kiyani kept his mouth shut after the OBL raid----. That fool did not realize what that would do the image of Pakistan.
> 
> The only thing he needed to speak was the truth---that this operation was done with the permission and association with Pakistan military---but he was scared of the al Qaeda---. Kiyani the coward---saved his skin to destroy the reputation of Pakistan.


i beg to disagree......


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## MastanKhan

قناص said:


> i beg to disagree......



Hi,

You have every right to-----but that is what it is----. Pakistan's image got smashed to smithereens---either of them--Kiyani or Pasha could have spoken up and the world know.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been telling them for a long time---*let the car salesman do the car deal---*leave the generals out of it---but they don't understand---they don't want to listen---.



Precisely why I support the current government in the current situation of Pakistan. Let the Car salesman do the damn DEAL!!!! Don't do sit-ins, don't throw violent fights on the media, and PLEASE DON'T use these blogs and sites to show hate towards America. Its your rulers who haven't done jack in 70 years, not America. The US wasn't the founder of Pakistan, but America has been there in some capacity to help Pakistan for the past 70 years...!

All comments from the above post MK wrote, mean one thing, Pakistan's REPUTATION. When there is lesser, or no open hate being shown on forums like this and on TV, and other mediums, when there are issues with elections, BUT they are repeatedly fought in courts and in parliaments, the image of a country becomes softer (take a look at how Americans perceive Turkey or Malaysia or Indonesia). That's how Pakistan should be perceived too.

Sad part is, Pakistan has a LOT more talented population than any Islamic country or majority of the countries in the world, it is at a super strategic place on the world map and it has humungous economic growth potential.......but it lacks in marketing.

The people of Pakistan do not want to learn diplomacy. Majority of Indians hate the US for many reasons. But will anyone say it on here or anywhere else? Hell No!!! Because they understand what the US is doing for them and they don't want to say something wrong about it and market India in bad taste, or show negativity.

Again, let the Car salesmen running the show in suits, do the deal. The country grows and the whole nation benefits. The West in particular does NOT like to sit with generals in Army or civilian uniform as they look at people in Army fatigues as pure "Service Men" hired to do their job. Its not the West's issue that the military is given a much higher status in Pakistan, without a reason. They want civilian people, talk civilian business and be salesmen. Everyone walks away happily, be it Pakistanis or the Americans!!!! So PLEASE, try to build a better image of your country and support the system. If the system is sent home by the court order, that is ABSOLUELY fine. But don't do violence, military coupes, sit-ins, threats to other politicians, negativity towards the Americans, or others, etc., etc.

Its time Pakistani nation focused on some marketing, some courteous business tactics where you can bite the tongue before saying anything negative. And just show courtesy to others.

How does this sentence sound? " I hate freaking Pakistan"?? and how does this sound? "I like Pakistan, the people are great, talented and have the potential. But the country has a huge intolerance issue to fix"?

I pretty much said the same thing in both the sentences, but the second one sounds very polite, respectful and still delivers the message without pissing anyone off. Again, create a better image for yourself. Not for Americans only, but for the globe!!



> o it is not for that reason---*it is for the reason that Kiyani kept his mouth shut after the OBL raid----. That fool did not realize what that would do the image of Pakistan.*
> 
> The only thing he needed to speak was the truth---that this operation was done with the permission and association with Pakistan military---but he was scared of the al Qaeda---. Kiyani the coward---saved his skin to destroy the reputation of Pakistan.



I agree with the above 100%. Both Kiyani and Zardari needed to come out the SAME day and announce that the Pak Army was involved. In fact, they should've asked Obama to mention Pakistan's efforts in helping the US, so that Pakistan can get rid of some bad press. Again, BAD examples of fools in Pakistan, who don't know jack about diplomacy, democracy and the power of negotiations.

Generals are not the answer to Pakistan's issues, the civilian salesmen are. Generals are respectable people due to their sacrifice for the country, but that doesn't mean the world loves them just as much. This is the MAIN point that if Pakistani nation can understand, you'll compete with India in diplomacy.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Well they think the procurement is much faster when they do it directly and no funds go where they are not needed.


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## aliyusuf

@Viper0011. 

Sir, you have worded your point of view to near perfection. Please accept my appreciation on expressing the core problem of our image in the west so succinctly.

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## monitor

mshahid said:


> Thanks *Russia and China* for AH-1Z helis


Pakistan mitary have great love for quality product. They use the chona AMD Russia card to oressuried the deal.


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## dexter

Thank God my avatar is saved from being ruined.

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## Arsalan

Thunder Bolt said:


> The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Bell Helicopter a USD581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.
> 
> The contract, which was announced by the DoD on 26 August but awarded the day before, c*overs the manufacture and delivery of 15 Lot 12 UH-1Y Venom utility helicopters, 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, one Lot 13 UH-1Y, and 21 auxiliary fuel kits *for the *US Marine Corps (USMC)* and government of Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters in April, and this announcement is the first official confirmation that a deal has been signed. While the notification does not say how many of the 15 helicopters have been signed for at this stage, it states that 10% (USD57.9 million) of the overall contract value covers the sale to the government of Pakistan. This suggests that this is an initial deal for the first two helicopters only, with contracts for the remaining 13 (plus spares and support) to follow.
> 
> According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018. The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".
> 
> The contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster its rotary-winged attack capabilities. As well as procuring the 15 AH-1Zs to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms, Pakistan has also evaluated the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters, which has included flying them operationally on counter-terrorism missions, and is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. On 19 August it was announced that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters,



Well my mouth watered when i read the bold part in the above report, but then i came to the part marked in red!!

ANYWAY, lets not get greedy, 15 AH-1Z are a good step forward and considering the 1000 Hellfire missiles that will come along make it that much more sweet. Will be a great boost to our operations against talis! 

There was a discussion a few days back about whether Pakistan will go for the UH-1 and i was of the view that we may not/should not considering the number of Bell platforms (412s) that we already have. It will be better to get more, if required, of the same platform. However the report did interested me for a moment there

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## Sipahi

monitor said:


> Pakistan mitary have great love for quality product. They use the chona AMD Russia card to oressuried the deal.



everybody wants the best thing available in the market ... so we are


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## Viper0011.

aliyusuf said:


> @Viper0011.
> 
> Sir, you have worded your point of view to near perfection. Please accept my appreciation on expressing the core problem of our image in the west so succinctly.



Thank you. I am spending so much time on here, just trying to make sure people here understand what is holding Pakistan behind. Its really a marketing and reputation issue. The military and the generals do not need to get involved with the globe on diplomacy and in meetings. They need to do their job and protect the country. The civilian government is essentially the salesmen hired to do the job to sell and buy what's important for Pakistan. The nation needs to let these guys sell and buy what's needed for Pakistan. That's the ONLY style and people the West likes. People in suits and without ANY title of General or Colonel or anything. 

When the Americans, or the French or the Britts hear a "General" is visiting them from Pakistan, they LITERALLY imagine, another one like Saddam Hussein and Kaddafi in uniform. And even if you close your own eyes for a minute and think about these characters, you won't have a good feeling in your own head. 

Generals outside of military work being done for Pakistan, should not be on media doing political campaigns and over glorifying the military. That's not their place. I don't like Kiyani for many reasons associated to Pakistan and his tenure. But I do have respect for him in one regard, he didn't do cheap marketing by being on every TV channels, showing off "doing things for the country". The military doesn't need to announce and show in news every day that its helping the flood victims, building a road, distributing water and food and all. That's ALL part of their JOB to do. Nothing outside of it!!!!

When any US state deploy the military for flood help, etc. There is usually a headline and they show a few military Humvee's and that's it. The way we look at the military is with pure respect and honor and a part of the system that the President of the US (Democratically elected) runs. The American military power is the most across the globe. But we don't idealize our generals in civilian matters, now do our generals come on tv every day to glorify their job duties and create an image that they are somehow doing a LOT more than their job description.

Its the people in suits who are on tv. Its the people in suits who've built the economy in the US, and a system where trillions are invested by foreigners with total understanding that their money will be safe and protected. 

Pakistan needs the same, people in suits (who now exist) to do these negotiations. Car Salesmen as MK puts it. Let the Banker do Bank deals, Businessmen do business deals and grow the economy and on the way, however many of them are founded to be corrupt or wrong by the Supreme Court, the system will get rid of them. 

But don't destroy your country's reputation anymore by doing violent sit ins, burning flags of other countries, attacking your own parliament, verbally assaulting America and whoever you think is the mother of all evil for you, without really thinking its you again yourself!! A good marketing effort to present civilian matters nicely and professionally is needed, specially on Pakistani media.

Indian media sensors ALL negative issues about their society if you haven't noticed. Go check out Hindustan times, or IBN, or their news channels, or whatever other news source. They present a VERY colorful, modern big country image. When you read their papers, there is little to no extreme stuff you can see, little to no violence mentioned, little to no Military generals shows up in every news channel about showing off what is their job. While they have a crazy issue of religious extremism being forced upon others by the Hindu elite. But they keep these things out of the media so that the IMAGE of the COUNTRY looks modern without violence and all to others. That's inviting investment as you look "so peaceful and modern". This is good marketing and reputation building and see where India is today!!

So if everyone does their job and a civilian control is maintained, Pakistan can go forward very quickly. Reputation and Image is the KEY to build here.

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## soldier of Putin

AH-1Z sucks. WZ-10 and Mi-35 are better. AH-1Z only if American taxpayers pay for them. Otherwise Pakistan should not go for AH-1Z.


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## ArsalanKhan21

VelocuR said:


> US should offer free of charge



Why ? Pakistan is not that important and has also been duplicitous to US.

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## IceCold

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No it is not for that reason---it is for the reason that Kiyani kept his mouth shut after the OBL raid----. That fool did not realize what that would do the image of Pakistan.
> 
> The only thing he needed to speak was the truth---that this operation was done with the permission and association with Pakistan military---but he was scared of the al Qaeda---. Kiyani the coward---saved his skin to destroy the reputation of Pakistan.



Everybody from politicians to the army has done things only which suited their interests, Pakistan can go to hell. Nothing has changed except their pathetic faces as far the ruling elite is concerned. Raheel Sharif however is al together different story.


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## RedRock

Viper0011. said:


> Thank you. I am spending so much time on here, just trying to make sure people here understand what is holding Pakistan behind. Its really a marketing and reputation issue. The military and the generals do not need to get involved with the globe on diplomacy and in meetings. They need to do their job and protect the country. The civilian government is essentially the salesmen hired to do the job to sell and buy what's important for Pakistan. The nation needs to let these guys sell and buy what's needed for Pakistan. That's the ONLY style and people the West likes. People in suits and without ANY title of General or Colonel or anything.
> 
> When the Americans, or the French or the Britts hear a "General" is visiting them from Pakistan, they LITERALLY imagine, another one like Saddam Hussein and Kaddafi in uniform. And even if you close your own eyes for a minute and think about these characters, you won't have a good feeling in your own head.
> 
> Generals outside of military work being done for Pakistan, should not be on media doing political campaigns and over glorifying the military. That's not their place. I don't like Kiyani for many reasons associated to Pakistan and his tenure. But I do have respect for him in one regard, he didn't do cheap marketing by being on every TV channels, showing off "doing things for the country". The military doesn't need to announce and show in news every day that its helping the flood victims, building a road, distributing water and food and all. That's ALL part of their JOB to do. Nothing outside of it!!!!
> 
> When any US state deploy the military for flood help, etc. There is usually a headline and they show a few military Humvee's and that's it. The way we look at the military is with pure respect and honor and a part of the system that the President of the US (Democratically elected) runs. The American military power is the most across the globe. But we don't idealize our generals in civilian matters, now do our generals come on tv every day to glorify their job duties and create an image that they are somehow doing a LOT more than their job description.
> 
> Its the people in suits who are on tv. Its the people in suits who've built the economy in the US, and a system where trillions are invested by foreigners with total understanding that their money will be safe and protected.
> 
> Pakistan needs the same, people in suits (who now exist) to do these negotiations. Car Salesmen as MK puts it. Let the Banker do Bank deals, Businessmen do business deals and grow the economy and on the way, however many of them are founded to be corrupt or wrong by the Supreme Court, the system will get rid of them.
> 
> But don't destroy your country's reputation anymore by doing violent sit ins, burning flags of other countries, attacking your own parliament, verbally assaulting America and whoever you think is the mother of all evil for you, without really thinking its you again yourself!! A good marketing effort to present civilian matters nicely and professionally is needed, specially on Pakistani media.
> 
> Indian media sensors ALL negative issues about their society if you haven't noticed. Go check out Hindustan times, or IBN, or their news channels, or whatever other news source. They present a VERY colorful, modern big country image. When you read their papers, there is little to no extreme stuff you can see, little to no violence mentioned, little to no Military generals shows up in every news channel about showing off what is their job. While they have a crazy issue of religious extremism being forced upon others by the Hindu elite. But they keep these things out of the media so that the IMAGE of the COUNTRY looks modern without violence and all to others. That's inviting investment as you look "so peaceful and modern". This is good marketing and reputation building and see where India is today!!
> 
> So if everyone does their job and a civilian control is maintained, Pakistan can go forward very quickly. Reputation and Image is the KEY to build here.



Hey 
just wanted to mention in-case you didn't know, our "car salesmen" as you put it, are the sort of people who lie on their CV's or get a job by knowing someone. Very few people know how to walk the talk or even talk sense. The government does not have the capacity at the moment to handle such issues. They definitely are diplomats and their likes to handle foreign issues, but when it comes to the US, well you need more seasoned and trustworthy individuals. That time will come hopefully but for now, this way seems to be working
And, hussain haqqani was also a car salesman, how did he turn out?
Regards

On topic:
Any idea what the color scheme on these beasts will be? or will it be just like it is in the pic?

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## MastanKhan

RedRock said:


> Hey
> just wanted to mention in-case you didn't know, our "car salesmen" as you put it, are the sort of people who lie on their CV's or get a job by knowing someone. Very few people know how to walk the talk or even talk sense. The government does not have the capacity at the moment to handle such issues. They definitely are diplomats and their likes to handle foreign issues, but when it comes to the US, well you need more seasoned and trustworthy individuals. That time will come hopefully but for now, this way seems to be working
> And, hussain haqqani was also a car salesman, how did he turn out?
> Regards
> 
> On topic:
> Any idea what the color scheme on these beasts will be? or will it be just like it is in the pic?



Hi,

Haqqani did not qualify to be loyal to Pakistan ever----. Loyalty is the first criteria.

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## RedRock

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Haqqani did not qualify to be loyal to Pakistan ever----. Loyalty is the first criteria.


very true..and sadly that is what is lacking in the people who rule this nation. Not all, but most.


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## Humble Analyst

soldier of Putin said:


> AH-1Z sucks. WZ-10 and Mi-35 are better. AH-1Z only if American taxpayers pay for them. Otherwise Pakistan should not go for AH-1Z.


Pakistan should go or MI 28 helis and su 35 planes.

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## Signalian

WZ-10 comes with no strings attached, losses can be replaced easily. Its better than AH-1F in all respects. AH-1Z is a different story but sanction prone.

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## araz

Arsalan said:


> Well my mouth watered when i read the bold part in the above report, but then i came to the part marked in red!!
> 
> ANYWAY, lets not get greedy, 15 AH-1Z are a good step forward and considering the 1000 Hellfire missiles that will come along make it that much more sweet. Will be a great boost to our operations against talis!
> 
> There was a discussion a few days back about whether Pakistan will go for the UH-1 and i was of the view that we may not/should not considering the number of Bell platforms (412s) that we already have. It will be better to get more, if required, of the same platform. However the report did interested me for a moment there


I think 15 is a good enough number for the moment. If the 1st one is delivered in 2018 we wont get them all by 2020 at least.This gives us 5 years to mature our long term prospects.
I think the more things progress in China the less and less we will depend on the west. We do have some access to technological transfer on Chinese products and in the long run this will help us in not only having a local industrial setup for various machines but local input and modifications to our circumstances. What the AH1Z does for us is to set a gold standard to work against and get the local product up to a level where we can stand up and defend ourselves without any fear.
I understand that there are more facets to national defence and security which we are woeful in but we need to start from somewhere. So all in all a good step. Obviously, there will always remain a fall back clause in case the Chinese/ Russian products are found wanting and we have money we will explore the possibility of getting more matured western technology. 
Araz



soldier of Putin said:


> AH-1Z sucks. WZ-10 and Mi-35 are better. AH-1Z only if American taxpayers pay for them. Otherwise Pakistan should not go for AH-1Z.


You need to qualify your reasons. Without reasons you have a rant not an argument and no one wants to listen to a bleating rant. So please qualify your argument as to why you think AH1Z stinks and WZ10 and MI35 are better.
Araz



ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Why ? Pakistan is not that important and has also been duplicitous to US.


And the US ofA has always been honest to us?????. Countries look after their national interests both US and Pakistan have done so and to say otherwise is a falacy.
Araz



IceCold said:


> Everybody from politicians to the army has done things only which suited their interests, Pakistan can go to hell. Nothing has changed except their pathetic faces as far the ruling elite is concerned. Raheel Sharif however is altogether different story.


With all due respect don't be too quick to judge. We need to be a bit cautious in assessing the situation. The real story will always get told once he is gone. Don't get me wrong but we have a tendency to put people on padestals and heights from where they can only come down So just a word of caution.
Araz



Humble Analyst said:


> Pakistan should go or MI 28 helis and su 35 planes.


Again a one liner without any reasons. You need to qualify your statement.Please don't be HUMBLE when it comes to sharing what goes on in your mind.We are all on this forum to learn from one another.Share your knowledge.
Araz



Sarge said:


> WZ-10 comes with no strings attached, losses can be replaced easily. Its better than AH-1F in all respects. AH-1Z is a different story but sanction prone.


WZ10 definitely has its advantages. However it is currently undergoing trials and evaluations and the results are being kept fairly secret so we don't know how it has fared. Once we have a preliminary report we would be in a better position to determine our long term goals.But certainly one of its iterations could be the answer to PAA's helicopter needs.
Araz

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> I think 15 is a good enough number for the moment. If the 1st one is delivered in 2018 we wont get them all by 2020 at least.This gives us 5 years to mature our long term prospects.
> I think the more things progress in China the less and less we will depend on the west. We do have some access to technological transfer on Chinese products and in the long run this will help us in not only having a local industrial setup for various machines but local input and modifications to our circumstances. What the AH1Z does for us is to set a gold standard to work against and get the local product up to a level where we can stand up and defend ourselves without any fear.
> I understand that there are more facets to national defence and security which we are woeful in but we need to start from somewhere. So all in all a good step. Obviously, there will always remain a fall back clause in case the Chinese/ Russian products are found wanting and we have money we will explore the possibility of getting more matured western technology.
> Araz



Completely agreed!
Go for a limited number, get them meet the urgent needs while keep working on replacement platforms. We know that three Z-10 are with PAA now. These are not here only as a gift, the Chinese sent them to us as they knew we have experience with some of the best helicopters of there time (the cobra), also we can get there birds tested in actual ongoing conflict, check at least its offensive powers if not defensive/protection package and actually contribute A LOT to improve the future version/upgrades. Also they know that PAA is potentially the first export customer so we will be really very interested in improvements and can give some valuable feedback. So yes, for now, 15 vipers will give us the much needed offensive capability, specially with the HELLFIRE missiles. In the mean time we can keep working on the Z-10 option and hopefully it will mature as per our requirements and will serve us well in the future.


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## airmarshal

Viper0011. said:


> Thank you. I am spending so much time on here, just trying to make sure people here understand what is holding Pakistan behind. Its really a marketing and reputation issue. The military and the generals do not need to get involved with the globe on diplomacy and in meetings. They need to do their job and protect the country. The civilian government is essentially the salesmen hired to do the job to sell and buy what's important for Pakistan. The nation needs to let these guys sell and buy what's needed for Pakistan. That's the ONLY style and people the West likes. People in suits and without ANY title of General or Colonel or anything.
> 
> When the Americans, or the French or the Britts hear a "General" is visiting them from Pakistan, they LITERALLY imagine, another one like Saddam Hussein and Kaddafi in uniform. And even if you close your own eyes for a minute and think about these characters, you won't have a good feeling in your own head.
> 
> Generals outside of military work being done for Pakistan, should not be on media doing political campaigns and over glorifying the military. That's not their place. I don't like Kiyani for many reasons associated to Pakistan and his tenure. But I do have respect for him in one regard, he didn't do cheap marketing by being on every TV channels, showing off "doing things for the country". The military doesn't need to announce and show in news every day that its helping the flood victims, building a road, distributing water and food and all. That's ALL part of their JOB to do. Nothing outside of it!!!!
> 
> When any US state deploy the military for flood help, etc. There is usually a headline and they show a few military Humvee's and that's it. The way we look at the military is with pure respect and honor and a part of the system that the President of the US (Democratically elected) runs. The American military power is the most across the globe. But we don't idealize our generals in civilian matters, now do our generals come on tv every day to glorify their job duties and create an image that they are somehow doing a LOT more than their job description.
> 
> Its the people in suits who are on tv. Its the people in suits who've built the economy in the US, and a system where trillions are invested by foreigners with total understanding that their money will be safe and protected.
> 
> Pakistan needs the same, people in suits (who now exist) to do these negotiations. Car Salesmen as MK puts it. Let the Banker do Bank deals, Businessmen do business deals and grow the economy and on the way, however many of them are founded to be corrupt or wrong by the Supreme Court, the system will get rid of them.
> 
> But don't destroy your country's reputation anymore by doing violent sit ins, burning flags of other countries, attacking your own parliament, verbally assaulting America and whoever you think is the mother of all evil for you, without really thinking its you again yourself!! A good marketing effort to present civilian matters nicely and professionally is needed, specially on Pakistani media.
> 
> Indian media sensors ALL negative issues about their society if you haven't noticed. Go check out Hindustan times, or IBN, or their news channels, or whatever other news source. They present a VERY colorful, modern big country image. When you read their papers, there is little to no extreme stuff you can see, little to no violence mentioned, little to no Military generals shows up in every news channel about showing off what is their job. While they have a crazy issue of religious extremism being forced upon others by the Hindu elite. But they keep these things out of the media so that the IMAGE of the COUNTRY looks modern without violence and all to others. That's inviting investment as you look "so peaceful and modern". This is good marketing and reputation building and see where India is today!!
> 
> So if everyone does their job and a civilian control is maintained, Pakistan can go forward very quickly. Reputation and Image is the KEY to build here.



My dear. Your post is totally detached from reality.

The reality is Pakistani 'elected' leaders are not sales men of the country. They are commission agents for their political, personal and family interests. Thus a space is created which should rightfully belong to politicians but taken over by Army.

This is happening right now. Decisions that should have been made by Sharif govt are being made by Shareef the general. Shareef the general goes to Russia or Britain, he gets a state level guard of honor. Sharif the PM, when he goes abroad justs sneaks in and out of the country.

Right now Army Chief is the most popular person in Pakistan. You know why? He is taking decisions that Pakistan needs. Sharif the PM, meanwhile thinking of ways to make more money out of privatizing and ue his position of PM to expand his business.

When APC in Peshawar was attacked, Sharif the PM went into hiding. He did not make a public statement nor visited Peshawar immediately. When Karachi was struck with heat wave, not a single politician except Imran visited Karachi. But in all this, you will see army all over the place helping the affected. 

These are crises which prove the mettle of leadership. Pakistani politicians have everything in them except leadership. 

Pakistan can only go forward when politicians take their rightful position. Until then, military will keep taking decisions and people will keep supporting them.

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## Jango

Sorry to rain in on the party folks:



> According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018.
> 
> DoD awards Pakistan AH-1Z contract - IHS Jane's 360



But something even more mouth watering is the UH-1Y Venom.


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## RAMPAGE

Jango said:


> Sorry to rain in on the party folks:
> 
> 
> 
> But something even more mouth watering is the UH-1Y Venom.


Not for us, are they?


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## Jango

RAMPAGE said:


> Not for us, are they?



The Venoms?

I think it is for us.


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## RAMPAGE

Jango said:


> The Venoms?
> 
> I think it is for us.


Doubt it.


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## Jango

RAMPAGE said:


> Doubt it.



Well that's what the article says, even though I am pretty skeptical about it as well.

Maybe the news of the venoms got drowned in the AH-1Z noise.


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## Areesh

Jango said:


> Sorry to rain in on the party folks:
> 
> 
> 
> But something even more mouth watering is the UH-1Y Venom.


Nope. Not for us.


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## Jango

Oh ok, I stand corrected.

The contract was for both the USMC and Pakistan...so the Venoms are for USMC.


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## RAMPAGE

Jango said:


> Well that's what the article says, even though I am pretty skeptical about it as well.
> 
> Maybe the news of the venoms got drowned in the AH-1Z noise.


 The equipment ordered is for both, PA and USMC.

Nowhere does it say that the Venoms are for Pakistan.


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## Jango

RAMPAGE said:


> The equipment ordered is for both, PA and USMC.
> 
> Nowhere does it say that the Venoms are for Pakistan.



Haan jee janab, man lia hai. Jazbati to na hon!

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## Humble Analyst

Again a one liner without any reasons. You need to qualify your statement.Please don't be HUMBLE when it comes to sharing what goes on in your mind.We are all on this forum to learn from one another.Share your knowledge.
Araz

Araz[/QUOTE]

I am thankful for challenging me in the right way, I have heard same complain from others sometime regarding my laziness or attitude. I elaborated some what in an earlier post but will give more reasons.
There is a chance in the shift of policies in US as Democratic President is finishing his second term. Senate/Congress is already Republican. The chances are that next President will be most probably Republican. Traditionally we had good relationship with Republicans, but that was Cold War era. Now India is influencing Republicans directly and through its Allies considerably. Bottom line is what sort of relationship Pakistan will have when it comes to supply of arms from US? It may have some issues in the future and the long time frame does not help Pakistan. Agree US has to supply these Helos to Marine Corps but still it is a long time. Things can change and Pakistan needed to upgrade it over worked Helicopter fleet during last decade. We need good anti armor helos with night capabilities now. Chances are Russian Mi28 could have been inducted by 2016-2017. By making payment for AH1Z this early Pakistan which is cash strapped is committed and stuck with the deal. Kindly recall Pakistan was offered edible oil for refund of money in 90s. The chances of getting a front line plane from US are not high in the near future. Agreed after Apache AH1Z are the best Gunships, however Mi28 is not far behind. The purchase of Mi28 from Russia could open the avenue of buying planes, engines and avionics. Granted India can influence Russia too, but the relationship is rather cooling off.
But what is done is over. For now Pakistan should consider adding some lightly armed/armored scout helicopters NVAIDS. These helos/combined with drones can help CPEC protection, surveillance/anti terrorist operations in Punjab, Balochistan,Sindh where terrain is not very high above sea level. This will reduce the requirement of full gunships. Getting off topic so ending it here. We need conventional arms to keep India in check and we need good Helos, Air Superiority Planes, medium range Air Defense systems and some tanks now.

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## araz

Humble Analyst said:


> I am thankful for challenging me in the right way, I have heard same complain from others sometime regarding my laziness or attitude. I elaborated some what in an earlier post but will give more reasons.
> There is a chance in the shift of policies in US as Democratic President is finishing his second term. Senate/Congress is already Republican. The chances are that next President will be most probably Republican. Traditionally we had good relationship with Republicans, but that was Cold War era. Now India is influencing Republicans directly and through its Allies considerably. Bottom line is what sort of relationship Pakistan will have when it comes to supply of arms from US? It may have some issues in the future and the long time frame does not help Pakistan. Agree US has to supply these Helos to Marine Corps but still it is a long time. Things can change and Pakistan needed to upgrade it over worked Helicopter fleet during last decade. We need good anti armor helos with night capabilities now. Chances are Russian Mi28 could have been inducted by 2016-2017. By making payment for AH1Z this early Pakistan which is cash strapped is committed and stuck with the deal. Kindly recall Pakistan was offered edible oil for refund of money in 90s. The chances of getting a front line plane from US are not high in the near future. Agreed after Apache AH1Z are the best Gunships, however Mi28 is not far behind. The purchase of Mi28 from Russia could open the avenue of buying planes, engines and avionics. Granted India can influence Russia too, but the relationship is rather cooling off.
> But what is done is over. For now Pakistan should consider adding some lightly armed/armored scout helicopters NVAIDS. These helos/combined with drones can help CPEC protection, surveillance/anti terrorist operations in Punjab, Balochistan,Sindh where terrain is not very high above sea level. This will reduce the requirement of full gunships. Getting off topic so ending it here. We need conventional arms to keep India in check and we need good Helos, Air Superiority Planes, medium range Air Defense systems and some tanks now.





Thank you for a detailed post. The USA influence war for Pakistan was lost in 1950s. As things have progressed and India has stepped out of the shadows of USSR and US has set it's eyes on curtailing and Corralling the Chinese and Russian influence the dynamics of things have changed further in India,s favour as far as the US goes. In a day and age where money has a dynamics of its own we have been further hampered by not having a political system which has matured and a dictatorial system ala Singapore that has killed off all opposition and driven the country forward in a regimental fashion. The result is politcal immaturity leading to rampant corruption and anarchy and economic anaemia which has become chronic and requires regular infusions. However the leeches get the better of the nation and while they get their fill the country goes weaker.
The army has tried its hand at governance but the same evil that afflicted the politicians has afflicted them and the country is currently pining for a cure. Whether this cure is surgical debridement or political toilette remains to be seen.
On the international scene a lack of clear dirction and sustained policy has given mixed messages to all and sundry and allowed the country to become the playground of all that is evil and bad for the country. People may talk of men in blacksuits but hte fact is there are none anda goon in a shalwar Kameez is just as bad as a goon in a blue suit or a uniform.
In the absence of a clear direction we also have a need to pronect ourselves as an independent nation(at least in our view) and equal to all.
Now look at the international arms scene and specifically at the gunship helicopter acquisition. We traditionally have had 3 sourcesthe EU,US and USSR. The last one has been close to us for decades and traditionally we have had to rely on the former 2 for our needs. As the price has gone up and our economic anaemia has failed to keep our nourishment upto satisfactory levels ,we have progressively relied on western second hand platforms for our needs(western here equates to EU and US). 
Two significant changes have occurred during the last 5 years or so. Firstly and most significantly the Chinese aviation industries have come up with platforms which are capable of giving anyother platform a run for their money. Secondly and less significantly the Russians have opened their doors. The US offering interestingly came immediately after the Chinese sent 3 z10s for evaluation and the Russians announced that they are in advanced negotiations for the sale of MI35. Whether one ,two or a three developments were reactionary is difficult to say however to be fair to US they have always said that AH1Z will not be available for sale till 2014-15.
Our problem now is how to play this game since all 3 parties are equally important to us and vice versa. We have fears of embargo from the US and a bad supply line and lack of financial arrangements from the Russians. The Chinese products are being evaluated and we dont know the results of this so it is a difficult situation to evaluate.
So how do I see this situation evolving. I think that we will get the 15 AH1Zs and possibly upto 20 MI35(The later possibly for SASGs). If the WZ10 is found to be good we will buy it as our work horse either as it is or with modifications. Otherwise we will recommend changes to our friends. The fact that they have gifted the platform for use in a war theatre means tbat either they are confident of the platform working well or they genuinely want to test how it will perform In war scenarios. In case of the later it will quietly go back for modifications and reevaluations. In case this takes time or does not work PAA will either go for more AH1Zs or MI28S if they are stil on offer. Otherwisd we will wait for and induct Z10 when ready.
On other friends as well we willprobably do the same and go for Chinese platforms wherever possible with local manufacturing /overhaul facilities.
My input into the situation.
Araz

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## Irfan Baloch

Jango said:


> Sorry to rain in on the party folks:
> 
> 
> 
> But something even more mouth watering is the UH-1Y Venom.


basically a beefed up Huey . the signature features are clear to see

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## HAIDER

Irfan Baloch said:


> basically a beefed up Huey . the signature features are clear to see


Modified UH-1N


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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> Modified UH-1N


Alan warns think they r on offer too reason is similar with viper Ah z


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## Shabi1

mingle said:


> Alan warns think they r on offer too reason is similar with viper Ah z


AH-1Z and UH-1Y use alot of same components, maintenance point of view UH-1Y seems very logical. US is retiring UH-1Ns or upgrading them to UH-1Ys

But for transport, Mi-17s are the best.


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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> Alan warns think they r on offer too reason is similar with viper Ah z


So, Alan Warn endorse ...upcoming Venom.

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## mingle

Shabi1 said:


> AH-1Z and UH-1Y use alot of same components, maintenance point of view UH-1Y seems very logical. US is retiring UH-1Ns or upgrading them to UH-1Ys
> 
> But for transport, Mi-17s are the best.


That's the point warns made .


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## SOFT RiDeR

Masha Allah


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## Windjammer




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## Muhammad Jabran

Awesome Look


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## v9s

Just saw on TV...some AH1Z Vipers have been transferred to Pakistan!


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## Imran Khan

v9s said:


> Just saw on TV...some AH1Z Vipers have been transferred to Pakistan!


i have opened a thread and they closed it 
USA handed over 4 choppers to pakistan


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## Sulman Badshah

v9s said:


> Just saw on TV...some AH1Z Vipers have been transferred to Pakistan!


which channel ???


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## LonE_WolF

Imran Khan said:


> i have opened a thread and they closed it
> USA handed over 4 choppers to pakistan


imran bhai any update on this?


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## niaz

Windjammer said:


>



I have also seen this news article in the October Air Force Monthly. This clearly say that initial order is for 2 Vipers only


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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


>





niaz said:


> I have also seen this news article in the October Air Force Monthly. This clearly say that initial order is for 2 Vipers only



The bell company received contract of manufacturing total of 218 AH1Z Vipers for USMC and PAA .. the above mention article 10% of the contract belongs to Pakistan .. So if its 10 % than the PAA vipers should be 21 or 22 ....

But eventually sale is only approved for 15 units (PAA requested 20 of them) ...

So i guess Other units might be approved after the completion of delivery

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## yugocrosrb95

That is a lot of fire power... Play the music of valkyrie's.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

WaLeEdK2 said:


> You have any idea how many mi-35s we're planning to get?



4 for now


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## Falcon Madeeha

Horus said:


> Repeating the lesson again
> 
> 
> Mi-35s are NOT for the Army, they most likely will be used by Special Forces as Airborne assault element.
> 
> Z-10 is under evaluation, 3 of them are already in Pakistan and if their trials are successful they'll replace our old Cobras
> 15 AH-1Z Vipers deal is 'done' by the looks of it & it will be provide the high tech element in our attack heli line up.
> However, i must say that i am VERY surprised at this deal, i must admit that i didn't see this one coming.


 why don't we send our vipers to china ?


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## Aamir Hussain

Maybe bcuz we dont have them ...... yet!


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## waz

Falcon Madeeha said:


> why don't we send our vipers to china ?



Because it is wrong on many accounts, one being a grave breech of trust. The current Block 52's have restrictions. Uncle Sam isn't going to let its latest and best (along with the Apache ) attack chopper go for sighting seeing tours in China.

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## Path-Finder

With the latest 8 quantity of f16 which is a humorous act by the yanks should we continue with AH 1Z. The deal is done but can we not survive without it and go for alternative option to replace the older Cobra with a non american platform.


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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> With the latest 8 quantity of f16 which is a humorous act by the yanks should we continue with AH 1Z. The deal is done but can we not survive without it and go for alternative option to replace the older Cobra with a non american platform.


Well we should go for Vipers and also order WZ-10 in really large numbers as for F-16 we are getting BLOCK 52 I hope we soon buy 18 more but these are not alternates for SU-35 @waz


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## Cool_Soldier

Viper is a good puch, we have been using older version for long so , we should continue with deal.This will strnthen our strike capabilities and defence against armoured strike forces.


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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  Nov 8
Pak Army to start taking delivery of it's three AH-1Zs in 2017. #DAS15

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## Sulman Badshah

*Bell AH-1Z Viper – USA*
NOVEMBER 12, 2015 ~ NONOTHAI






The *Bell AH-1Z Viper*is a twin-engine attack helicopter based on the AH-1W SuperCobra, that was developed for theUnited States Marine Corps (USMC). The AH-1Z features a four-blade, bearingless, composite main rotor system, uprated transmission, and a new target sighting system. The AH-1Z is part of the H-1 upgrade program. It is also called “Zulu Cobra” in reference to its variant letter.






The AH-1Z incorporates new rotor technology with upgraded military avionics, weapons systems, and electro-optical sensors in an integrated weapons platform. It has improved survivability and can find targets at longer ranges and attack them with precision weapons.






*Bearingless, hingeless rotor system*
The AH-1Z’s new bearingless, hingeless rotor system has 75% fewer parts than that of four-bladed articulated systems. The blades are made of composites, which have an increased ballistic survivability, and there is a semiautomatic folding system for storage aboard amphibious assault ships. Its two redesigned wing stubs are longer, with each adding a wing-tip station for a missile such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder. Each wing has two other stations for 2.75-inch (70 mm) Hydra 70 rocket pods, or AGM-114 Hellfire quad missile launchers. The AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar can also be mounted on a wing tip station.






*20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon in the A/A49E-7 turret*





*AGM-114 Hellfire quad missile launchers and 2.75-inch (70 mm) Hydra 70 rocket pods*





*Wing-tip station for a missile such as the AIM-9 Sidewinder (air-to-air) above or AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar below*





The Z-model’s integrated avionics system (IAS) has been developed by Northrop Grumman. The system includes two mission computers and an automatic flight control system. Each crew station has two 8×6-inch multifunction liquid crystal displays (LCD) and one 4.2×4.2-inch dual function LCD display. The communications suite combines a US Navy RT-1824 integrated radio, UHF/VHF, COMSEC and modem in a single unit. The navigation suite includes an embedded GPS inertial navigation system (EGI), a digital map system and Meggitt’s low-airspeed air data subsystem, which allows weapons delivery when hovering.

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## Sulman Badshah

*Front seat*






*Rear seat*





The crew are equipped with the Thales “Top Owl” helmet-mounted sight and display system. The Top Owl has a 24-hour day/night capability and a binocular display with a 40° field of view. Its visor projection providesforward looking infrared (FLIR) or video imagery. The AH-1Z has survivability equipment including the Hover Infrared Suppression System (HIRSS) to cover engine exhausts, countermeasure dispensers, radar warning, incoming/on-way missile warning, and on-fuselage laser spot warning systems.






*Thales “Top Owl” helmet-mounted sight and display system*





*Hover Infrared Suppression System (HIRSS) to cover engine exhausts*
The Lockheed Martin target sight system (TSS) incorporates a third-generation FLIR sensor. The TSS provides target sighting in day, night, or adverse weather conditions. The system has various view modes and can track with FLIR or by TV. The same system is also used on the UH-1Y Venomand the KC-130J Harvest HAWK.






*Lockheed Martin target sight system (TSS) incorporates a third-generation FLIR sensor*





*Avionics bay*


*Operators*



Pakistan

Pakistan Army (15 on order)




United States

United States Marine Corps

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## Sulman Badshah

*Specifications (AH-1Z)*



_Data from_ Bell Specifications, The International Directory of Military Aircraft, 2002–2003, Modern Battlefield Warplanes
*General characteristics*


*Crew:* 2: pilot, co-pilot/gunner (CPG)
*Capacity:* 6,661 lb (3,021 kg)
*Length:* 58 ft 3 in (17.8 m)
*Rotor diameter:* 48 ft (14.6 m)
*Height:* 14 ft 4 in (4.37 m)
*Disc area:* 1,808 ft² (168.0 m²)
*Empty weight:* 12,300 lb (5,580 kg)
*Useful load:* 5,764 lb (2,620 kg)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 18,500 lb (8,390 kg)
*Powerplant:*
*Rotor systems:* 4 blades on main rotor, 4 blades on tail rotor
*Performance*


*Never exceed speed:* 222 knots (255 mph, 411 km/h) in a dive
*Cruise speed:* 160 kn (184 mph, 296 km/h)
*Range:* 370 nmi (426 mi, 685 km)
*Combat radius:* 125 nmi (144 mi, 231 km) with 2,500 lb (1,130 kg) payload
*Service ceiling:* 20,000+ ft (6,000+ m)
*Rate of climb:* 2,790 ft/min (14.2 m/s)
*Armament*


*Guns:* 1 × 20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon in the A/A49E-7 turret (750 round ammo capacity)
*Hardpoints:* Up to 6 pylon stations on stub wing
*Rockets:* 2.75 in (70 mm) Hydra 70 or APKWS II rockets – Mounted in LAU-68C/A (7 shot) or LAU-61D/A (19 shot) launchers
*Missiles:*
AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles – 1 mounted on each wing tip station (total of 2)
AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface missiles – Up to 16 missiles mounted in four 4-round M272 missile launchers, two on each wing







*2 × General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft, 1,800 shp (1,340 kW) each*





*20 mm (0.787 in) M197 3-barreled Gatling cannon*





*Hydra 70 rockets above or APKWS II rockets below*










*AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface missiles (Anti-armor) 500m to 8km at Mach 1.3*

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Salahadin said:


> By
> DOUG CAMERON
> April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET
> 
> View attachment 212609
> 
> 
> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.
> 
> U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.
> 
> Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.
> 
> Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com
> 
> State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ



Good move though by the Pakistan government , we need these type of helis to tackle the future threats of Indian Apaches


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## Mo12

YousufSSG said:


> Good move though by the Pakistan government , we need these type of helis to tackle the future threats of Indian Apaches



How does this helicopter compare against the Apache?


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## SSGcommandoPAK

WaLeEdK2 said:


> You have any idea how many mi-35s we're planning to get?


12



Mo12 said:


> How does this helicopter compare against the Apache?



When did i compare this to apache , i said we need more helis like this so we can defend ourselves against Indian apaches


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## Muhammad Omar

Mo12 said:


> How does this helicopter compare against the Apache?



look at this thread 

AH-64A/D APACHE & AH-1Z VIPER


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## Humble Analyst

YousufSSG said:


> Good move though by the Pakistan government , we need these type of helis to tackle the future threats of Indian Apaches


I am not sure if it was a good move to tie this much money and first delivery will be in 2018


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

15 choppers for 1 Billion while Egypt recently closed deal for 50 Helicopters from Russia for 1.5 Billion


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## Sulman Badshah

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 15 choppers for 1 Billion while Egypt recently closed deal for 50 Helicopters from Russia for 1.5 Billion


India is getting 22Apache and 15 chinook for more than 2.5 b usd

our deal include 1000 hellfire as well

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> India is getting 22Apache and 15 chinook for more than 2.5 b usd
> 
> our deal include 1000 hellfire as well


Can Pakistan integrate Mizrak U on WZ-10 ?

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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Mizrak U on WZ-10 ?


may be ,,, If china agree


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## HRK

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *15 choppers for 1 Billion*



*15 choppers $ 645 million* 












US agrees to sell AH-1Z attack helicopters to Pakistan | Page 2

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## Sulman Badshah

HRK said:


> *15 choppers $ 645 million*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US agrees to sell AH-1Z attack helicopters to Pakistan | Page 2


Thanks for these contents



HRK said:


> *15 choppers $ 645 million*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US agrees to sell AH-1Z attack helicopters to Pakistan | Page 2


I think Hellfire are also included in 645 M USD deal ...


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## HRK

Sulman Badshah said:


> Thanks for these contents
> 
> 
> I think Hellfire are also included in 645 M USD deal ...



can't say with 100% surety, but I think Hellfire are part of 'other' section .... & the basis of my assumption is the previously shared *average cost of baseline *AH-1Z in one of the related thread for USMC which was around $ *30.060 *million in the *year 2010*.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

My concern with the contract is

a) The spares are not there i.e spare engines

Also Chinese Helicopters would have come in larger numbers with relatively same missiles for ground support may be 1 Billion would have bought us 50-60 Chinese Helicopters with 20 spare engines or more


@ 16 Million for Z-10 , with 650 Million we could have bought 46 , Attack gunships of comparable quality from China 

Comparable weapons 
*Armament*

*Guns:* 23*115 mm revolver gun, 25*137 mm M242 Bushmaster chain gun or 30*165 mm 2A72 autocannon mounted on chin turret (optional 35 mm QLZ04 or 40 mm LG3 automatic grenade launchers, or 12.7 or 14.5 mm Gatling gun)
*Hardpoints:* 4
*Rockets:* 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
*Missiles:* ** Up to 16 HJ-10 air to surface / anti tank / anti helicopter missiles. ADK10 is reported to be the official name of HJ10 missile.[15]
Up to 16 HJ-8, HJ-9 missiles
Up to 16 TY-90 air-to-air missiles
Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9 air-to-air missiles


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## Zarvan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> My concern with the contract is
> 
> a) The spares are not there i.e spare engines
> 
> Also Chinese Helicopters would have come in larger numbers with relatively same missiles for ground support may be 1 Billion would have bought us 50-60 Chinese Helicopters with 20 spare engines or more


There are few spare engines



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> My concern with the contract is
> 
> a) The spares are not there i.e spare engines
> 
> Also Chinese Helicopters would have come in larger numbers with relatively same missiles for ground support may be 1 Billion would have bought us 50-60 Chinese Helicopters with 20 spare engines or more


This 1 billion is mostly from USA Aid

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## Khan_patriot

We should have opted for Russian or Chinese choppers more bang for the buck


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## dadeechi

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 15 choppers for 1 Billion while Egypt recently closed deal for 50 Helicopters from Russia for 1.5 Billion



Quality matters



Sulman Badshah said:


> India is getting 22Apache and 15 chinook for more than 2.5 b usd
> 
> our deal include 1000 hellfire as well



Exactly.



Zarvan said:


> This 1 billion is mostly from USA Aid



Didn't know that. Now It even makes more sense. Even without the aid this would have been a good buy.


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## Khan_patriot

dadeechi said:


> Quality matters
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.


We need the choppers for an anti terrorist role and I think that the quality barely matters side the enemy is technologically far inferior to our forces what we need are multiple moderately advanced platforms capable of giving close air support across the battlefield as much as possible and higher numbers would help.


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## dadeechi

HRK said:


> *15 choppers $ 645 million*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US agrees to sell AH-1Z attack helicopters to Pakistan | Page 2



So it's only 645 million for 15 choppers.



Khan_patriot said:


> We need the choppers for an anti terrorist role and I think that the quality barely matters side the enemy is technologically far inferior to our forces what we need are multiple moderately advanced platforms capable of giving close air support across the battlefield as much as possible and higher numbers would help.



I thought you were procuring MI-35 for anti terror operations and AH-1Z Viper as a counter to India's Apache procurement. Why would you need so many (1000) Hellfire II missiles for anti-terror operations?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Khan_patriot said:


> We should have opted for Russian or Chinese choppers more bang for the buck



Bought MI-35Es from Russia... Probably will order Z-10s? (3 "gifted" gunships) were/are being evaluated ...

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## Khan_patriot

dadeechi said:


> So it's only 645 million for 15 choppers.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were procuring MI-35 for anti terror operations and AH-1Z Viper as a counter to India's Apache procurement. Why would you need so many (1000) Hellfire II missiles for anti-terror operations?


Any defence procurement is not theatre specific although this might have been to counter the Indian procurement but the more pressing matter to our national security is the militant threat instead of the Indians.
To answer your question about needing 1000 hell fires, that's to blow all the talibitches to hell


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## DESERT FIGHTER

dadeechi said:


> So it's only 645 million for 15 choppers.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were procuring MI-35 for anti terror operations and AH-1Z Viper as a counter to India's Apache procurement. Why would you need so many (1000) Hellfire II missiles for anti-terror operations?



Counter apaches? You do know that gunships don't really engage other gunships right?

Pakistan has to replace our aging Cobras (over 55+)... 
Mi-35Es are for CT ops... Vipers will replace older Cobras.. Either more will be ordered or maybe the rest will be replaced by Z-10s..



Khan_patriot said:


> Any defence procurement is not theatre specific although this might have been to counter the Indian procurement but the more pressing matter to our national security is the militant threat instead of the Indians.
> To answer your question about needing 1000 hell fires, that's to blow all the talibitches to hell



I doubt we will use expensive hell fires on those bastards.. Locally produced Barqs and Baktar Shikans (which are being used) are enough for them.

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## Khan_patriot

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> I doubt we will use expensive hell fires on those bastards.. Locally produced Barqs and Baktar Shikans (which are being used) are enough for them.


You have got a good point there but the only time I see hell fires being used are to takeout some underground bunkers or tunnel networks and trust me those rats have many of those but yes mostly I don't see them being used against the lone technical or compound

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## DESERT FIGHTER

dadeechi said:


> Quality matters
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't know that. Now It even makes more sense. Even without the aid this would have been a good buy.




The deal is worth around 1.1-2 billion dollars (additional order for equipment was placed)...

Under FMS.. Not really AID....
CSF is reimbursement.



Khan_patriot said:


> You have got a good point there but the only time I see hell fires being used are to takeout some underground bunkers or tunnel networks and trust me those rats have many of those but yes mostly I don't see them being used against the lone technical or compound



For that it's PAF that bombs them or PA that goes for them...

Gunships are mostly used in following cases/situations;

Softening ground (before troops and armour move in)
Air support (troops or convoys)
Targeting talibitch hideouts,compounds etc...

Hellfires aren't very useful against under ground tunnels (which cover kilometres in cases and are deep as fuk--- with several escape "doors" or exits)...


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## Khan_patriot

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> For that it's PAF that bombs them or PA that goes for them...
> 
> Gunships are mostly used in following cases;
> 
> Softening ground
> Air support
> Targeting talibitch hideouts,compounds etc...
> 
> Hellfires aren't very useful against under ground tunnels (which cover kilometres in cases and are deep as fuk--- with several escape "doors" or exits)...


Yeah roger that as long as they end up in hell I don't care, 
DEATH TO THE TALIBAN

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Khan_patriot said:


> Yeah roger that as long as they end up in hell I don't care,
> DEATH TO THE TALIBAN



Amen brother... Those motherfukers need dying.


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## C130

Ka-52 would of been a wiser choice. not only is the helicopter cheaper the main missile costs 1/3 that of the Hellfire II Romeo

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## dadeechi

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Counter apaches? You do know that gunships don't really engage other gunships right?
> 
> Pakistan has to replace our aging Cobras (over 55+)...
> Mi-35Es are for CT ops... Vipers will replace older Cobras.. Either more will be ordered or maybe the rest will be replaced by Z-10s..
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt we will use expensive hell fires on those bastards.. Locally produced Barqs and Baktar Shikans (which are being used) are enough for them.



I did not mean chopper vs chopper rather for your tank destruction vs our tank destruction.



Khan_patriot said:


> Any defence procurement is not theatre specific although this might have been to counter the Indian procurement but the more pressing matter to our national security is the militant threat instead of the Indians.
> To answer your question about needing 1000 hell fires, that's to blow all the talibitches to hell



Those 1000 Hellfires are for 1000 T-90 Tanks


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## DESERT FIGHTER

C130 said:


> Ka-52 would of been a wiser choice. not only is the helicopter cheaper the main missile costs 1/3 that of the Hellfire II Romeo



Would also need infrastructure,training and whole logistics to support them.... Meanwhile Pak has been operating Cobras for decades and Viper (in essence) is Cobras offspring.


Meanwhile MI-35Es will fulfill the gap... 


----


Pretty fuked up --- Army aviation will operate several types of gunships;
Vipers
Cobras (which will eventually be replaced)
Mi-35Es (most probably equip SF heli SQDs)
Z-10s (if they buy more)
Fennecs (light attack)



dadeechi said:


> I did not mean chopper vs chopper rather for your tank destruction vs our tank destruction.



Just like you have to replace mi-25s -- we have to replace Cobras..

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## princefaisal

C130 said:


> Ka-52 would of been a wiser choice. not only is the helicopter cheaper the main missile costs 1/3 that of the Hellfire II Romeo


Looks better than Mi-28 Havoc


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Helicopters have the prestige element as it was used by US marines , I mean I love the helicopter how it looks its beautiful piece of machine , US made has to be beautiful

Lets face it on its beauti and performance , the chopper gets 8.9/10 easily only second to Apache and few russian versions


But 15 Helicopters are *not sufficient* for Pakistan army, we need at least *50-60 Gunships* , and ability to maintain them to top performance levels , like develop engineering Human Resources on new Technology/Mechanical know how

I mean I love the design of the machine etc the performance matrices and all that good stuff
Just that in today's age when Terrorist have RPG , having ample helicopter force is key to any success
_*
Z-10 Chinese chopper offer some serious fire power & numbers , together with decent Air to Air Missiles to take out any opposing chopper. Pakistan could get TOT on the missiles , 4,000-5000 Missiles on hand and productions*_


_*



*_

_*Z10 is a more practical option for Pakistan Army , since we can get 100-200 units if we plan 4-5 year cycle with setup of TOT and Local Assembly *_

These would serve our needs for 12-15 years

Twin engine , performance
2 Pilots to coordinate operations
Ample options for Air to Ground
Ample options for Air to Air missions

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## Cool_Soldier

Viper is has technological edge, that is why Army wants to have them.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If Military takes the same approach as JF17 thunder on Z-10 , we could have assembly / manufacturing units in KAMRA , 100-200 Units over 5 years. Enough for 15 years defense need

Plus with Chinese product we know we will get

Enhancements over years 

Supply of Missiles, would be easy

Live testing of weapons as we have plenty of spares

The Viper is a decent platform , just expensive and hard to maintain , becomes a burden after 4-5 years of service as we need engines and parts etc

15 Choppers not enough , considering large Territory we need to cover

Considering we need the Choppers now , vs Anti Terror role , and protecting border arrival in 2018 is just so far away sadly


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## Sulman Badshah

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 16 Million for Z-10 , with 650 Million we could have bought 46 , Attack gunships of comparable quality from China


WZ10 is near 30 M USD per helicopter and less capable than viper ...

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well what makes you say that Z-10 is any less capable

Speed/ Climb rate are all decent in fact fantastic

It has Air to Ground missiles to hit Tanks, APC , Compounds , fortified soldier commands
It has machine gun to take out soliders on foot disable and destroy trucks and jeeps
It has Air to Air missiles for engagement of Other helicopters

15 US choppers would be great just the numbers are low , will have to leave fight to rearm , and then you know lack of spare engines and other issues , its short minded solution

The choppers , will be struggling for repair parts in 4-5 years and with no spares , we will be stuck grounding these


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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> This 1 billion is mostly from USA Aid



these are coming under Foreign Military Sales program, not under Foreign Military Funding program


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## Sulman Badshah

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well what makes you say that Z-10 is any less capable


I am not saying WZ10 is bad helicopter .. it is good and comparable with T129

but AH1Z got extra punch

Just look at weapon take off package of Z10 and AH1Z

AH1Z can take 16 ATGM and 2 sidewinders on wing tip at the same time ..If you want to equip rockets than 8 atgm+38 rockets+2 sidewinders/ or 76 rockets+2 sidewinders ..

while Z10 is capable of carrying maximum 8 ATGM+rockets(there is no provision of 16 ATGM) with rockets (if you want to carry A2A missile than you have to sacrifice the main Hard points)

Longbow radar can be installed in AH1Z while Z10 will get its radar in future (don't have yet)

Topowl HMD is being used on F16 and capable of providing high boresight and AH1Z is using these ...

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> I am not saying WZ10 is bad helicopter .. it is good and comparable with T129
> 
> but AH1Z got extra punch
> 
> Just look at weapon take off package of Z10 and AH1Z
> 
> AH1Z can take 16 ATGM and 2 sidewinders on wing tip at the same time ..If you want to equip rockets than 8 atgm+38 rockets+2 sidewinders/ or 76 rockets+2 sidewinders ..
> 
> while Z10 is capable of carrying maximum 8 ATGM+rockets(there is no provision of 16 ATGM) with rockets (if you want to carry A2A missile than you have to sacrifice the main Hard points)
> 
> Longbow radar can be installed in AH1Z while Z10 will get its radar in future (don't have yet)
> 
> Topowl HMD is being used on F16 and capable of providing high boresight and AH1Z is using these ...


WZ-10 can take 16 Anti Tank Missiles.


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## ZAC1

I am always surprised to see PA buying full package of weapons + spares.keeping future in their minds.


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## ZAC1

well people says they are going to retire old cobras i dont think so they will keep them till they fall


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> WZ-10 can take 16 Anti Tank Missiles.


nope ... 

Can you provide any image of WZ10 carrying 16 ATGM ... Wikipedia source is saying wrong here ...


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Sulman Badshah said:


> nope ...
> 
> Can you provide any image of WZ10 carrying 16 ATGM ... Wikipedia source is saying wrong here ...



There isn't any picture of WZ-10 carrying 16 ATGM but it's believed it can carry 16 ATGM


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## Sulman Badshah

Muhammad Omar said:


> it's believed it can carry 16 ATGM


believe on what (any official statement or proper manufacturer source saying it can carry 16 ATGM )


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> nope ...
> 
> Can you provide any image of WZ10 carrying 16 ATGM ... Wikipedia source is saying wrong here ...


It can carry 16 ATGM man @Beast @Deino @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 Please clarify this


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## Beast

Sulman Badshah said:


> WZ10 is near 30 M USD per helicopter and less capable than viper ...


That is some BS from you. WZ-10 targeting system and sensor are far superior than Viper can provide. WZ-10 are able to multi task and acquire far more targets than old US Viper which system are lagging behind.


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## Bratva

Beast said:


> That is some BS from you. WZ-10 targeting system and sensor are far superior than Viper can provide. WZ-10 are able to multi task and acquire far more targets than old US Viper which system are lagging behind.



If you are saying WZ sensors and TS is superior than Viper, then you are smoking some serious crack sonny



Zarvan said:


> It can carry 16 ATGM man @Beast @Deino @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 Please clarify this



Bhai aqal sai lay lia kro kaam kabhi. WZ-10 engine is not capable right now to carry 16 ATGM.

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## Sulman Badshah

Beast said:


> old US Viper


Both Z10 and AH1Z are latest attack helicopters from their respective countries ... Viper isn't old and even it isn't inducted properly ... 

about targeting system This statement is copied from the manufacturer website 


The AH-1Z Target Sight System (TSS) incorporates a third-generation FLIR and currently provides the longest range, lowest jitter and highest weapons' accuracy possible of any helicopter sight in the world. In addition, the completely passive and automatic system scans the battlefield without emitting trackable radar, positively identifying and tracking multiple targets at ranges beyond the maximum range of its weapons system.

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## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> If you are saying WZ sensors and TS is superior than Viper, then you are smoking some serious crack sonny
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai aqal sai lay lia kro kaam kabhi. WZ-10 engine is not capable right now to carry 16 ATGM.


the new engine wz16 is


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## Signalian

Sulman Badshah said:


> India is getting 22Apache and 15 chinook for more than 2.5 b usd
> our deal include 1000 hellfire as well



PAA should have ordered the same. AH-64 E and CH-47 F.

There is no heavy lift in PAA, India has Mi-26 already. Mi-17 is a medium lift heli. FCNA is in dire need of a heavy lift heli.

AH-64 E would have helped improve next versions of Z-10.


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## Sulman Badshah

Sarge said:


> AH-64 E would have helped improve next versions of Z-10.


AH1Z is not inferior to AH64E... they are almost equal ..

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## Atlanticore

Pulsar said:


> As well as to be used against India in war. Thank you America! You guys are such great friends!


We are paying for it not just for countering America's Enemies. We will use these Helos against who ever will pose threat to our *Sovereignty *be it TTP, Al-Qaeda or India.
Come back to your senses now.


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Salahadin said:


> By
> DOUG CAMERON
> April 6, 2015 6:12 p.m. ET
> 
> View attachment 212609
> 
> 
> The State Department has approved Pakistan’s request to buy almost $1 billion in U.S.-made attack helicopters, missiles and other equipment aimed at fighting insurgents in the country’s mountainous north and west regions.
> 
> U.S. defense companies are engaged in a three-way tussle with Russia and China to sell weapons to Pakistan, complicated by the need to avoid upsetting neighbor India and its even larger arms’ import market.
> 
> The Pentagon said Monday that Pakistan had requested 15 AH-1Z Viper helicopters made by the Bell arm of Textron Inc., as well as 1,000 Hellfire missiles produced by Lockheed Martin Corp. and a host of other communications and training equipment with a total value of $952 million, according to a notification to Congress, which needs to approve any sale.
> 
> Any deal would be structured as a foreign military sale between the two governments.
> 
> “This proposed sale of helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations in South Asia,” said the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. military exports.
> 
> Write to Doug Cameron at doug.cameron@wsj.com
> 
> State Dept. Approves Pakistan Arms Request - WSJ


Is this deal canceled? Its been a while since we heard any news.


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## Viper0011.

ZAC1 said:


> I am always surprised to see PA buying full package of weapons + spares.keeping future in their minds.



This trend started after the F-16 saga and the Pressler Amendment. Now, during any deal, the Pakistani military keeps at least 5 years or spares, etc in their inventory in case there are sanctions, so that they have enough time to buy and induct something else.



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Is this deal canceled? Its been a while since we heard any news.



The United States Congress is given 30 days to object to any deal or ask for clarification or impose laws to cancel any deal. If no actions is taken, the deal is automatically passed. So these systems should now be under manufacturing as the Cobras have some new upgrades specific to the Pakistani needs. I think delivery starts from 2017-2018.

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## Cool_Soldier

Yes, Delivery will start by 2017 and might end in 2018.
Good luck!


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## saadee

I heard that Cobra deal is only a dramabaazi. Helicopters nahi milnay lagay. PA is already using MI-35 in North Waziristan. We have received two older version built in 97 and one newer version built in 2013. One hind is still in Russia and will join the PA soon. Agay Allah janta hai Kay iss mein kitnee sachaee hai.


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## Cool_Soldier

We are using MI 17 in North west area of conflict.We have few old version which were captured during Afghan Soviet war.Those are useless due to shortage of spares.An order has already been placed for atleast 4 Mi 35 with Russia and it might go up to 12.
However Viper A1Z1 is already on order around 15 which will Insha Allah joining PAA in 2017 and 2018.


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## Khafee

*Lockheed Martin awarded $14M contract for Pakistan AH-1Z Target Sight System work*
*18 Jan, 2016, 
*
Lockheed Martin Corp., Missiles and Fire Control, Orlando, Florida, is being awarded a $14,221,556 cost-plus-fixed-fee undefinitized contract action for the procurement of non-recurring engineering requirements on the Target Sight System (TSS), including software development and testing, system modification, testing, and installation requirements necessary to configure the TSS to the requirements of the government of Pakistan. The TSS provides target identification and tracking, passive targeting for integrated weapons, including Hellfire missiles, and a laser-designation capability supporting friendly laser-guided weapons. The TSS is integrated into the AH-1Z Cobra attack helicopters. Work will be performed in Orlando, Florida (94 percent); and Ocala, Florida (6 percent). The work is expected to be complete by December 2017. Fiscal 2016 foreign military sales funding in the amount of $3,555,389 will be obligated at time of award. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract is being negotiated on a sole-source basis in accordance with statutory authority 10 U.S. Code 2304(c)(4) as implemented by Federal Acquisition Regulation 6.302-4. The Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane, Indiana, is the contracting activity (N00164-16-C-JQ11).

HeliHub Lockheed Martin awarded $14M contract for Pakistan AH-1Z Target Sight System work

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## Sulman Badshah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/704366811362533376

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## Major Sam

Sulman Badshah said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/704366811362533376


wat it means exactly?


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## Quwa

Major Sam said:


> wat it means exactly?


Pakistan being the launch export customer of the AH-1Z basically got a whole bunch of other countries (e.g. Australia) interested in the platform. Bell expects the sales to start flowing now, big time.


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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> Pakistan being the launch export customer of the AH-1Z basically got a whole bunch of other countries (e.g. Australia) interested in the platform. Bell expects the sales to start flowing now, big time.


is pakistan expecting commission then?


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## Quwa

Blue Marlin said:


> is pakistan expecting commission then?


I doubt it, but if it requests more AH-1Zs (likely), Bell better be there to drive the order home in Congress.


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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> I doubt it, but if it requests more AH-1Zs (likely), Bell better be there to drive the order home in Congress.


i was being rhetorical. why else do you think the turks were desperate to sell the t129 to Pakistan. heck if they like it, and pakistan using the kit like this often then its gonna be good so it is seen as a catalyst for future orders. i think the zulu's are competing for a order in Poland and Australia as the tigers are being scrapped as they were not even used once.

uncle sam isn't stupid i bet they saw this coming. and they had to act fast as the mil-35 was being sold then. 

it is quite interesting to see the usa refuse to sell kit to them, but when other countries step in to fill the void uncle sam just pushes through and nabs the deal.


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## Quwa

Blue Marlin said:


> i was being rhetorical. why else do you think the turks were desperate to sell the t129 to Pakistan. heck if they like it, and pakistan using the kit like this often then its gonna be good so it is seen as a catalyst for future orders. i think the zulu's are competing for a order in Poland and Australia as the tigers are being scrapped as they were not even used once.
> 
> uncle sam isn't stupid i bet they saw this coming. and they had to act fast as the mil-35 was being sold then.
> 
> it is quite interesting to see the usa refuse to sell kit to them, but when other countries step in to fill the void uncle sam just pushes through and nabs the deal.


I think America's intentions are multi-layered. There was definitely a commercial aspect to releasing the AH-1Zs: Pakistan is locked in COIN and is expected to use the AH-1Zs as soon as they're cleared for combat. Australia, Poland and others are definitely keeping an eye on Pakistan. That said, there is another dimension to the U.S.' decision to release the AH-1Zs, which is the fact that equipment transfers such as this help it maintain influence in Pakistan's policy circles. It is the same story as the F-16s (and OHPs had Congress not botched it).

The Australian and Polish orders notwithstanding, Bell is probably expecting Pakistan to order at least a few additional AH-1Zs. While I do think the PAA will eventually buy Z-10s from China, it probably won't happen until it is outfitted with more powerful turboshafts. Until then, the AH-1Z will gradually and incrementally form the mainstay of the dedicated attack helicopter fleet.


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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> I think America's intentions are multi-layered. There was definitely a commercial aspect to releasing the AH-1Zs: Pakistan is locked in COIN and is expected to use the AH-1Zs as soon as they're cleared for combat. Australia, Poland and others are definitely keeping an eye on Pakistan. That said, there is another dimension to the U.S.' decision to release the AH-1Zs, which is the fact that equipment transfers such as this help it maintain influence in Pakistan's policy circles. It is the same story as the F-16s (and OHPs had Congress not botched it).
> 
> The Australian and Polish orders notwithstanding, Bell is probably expecting Pakistan to order at least a few additional AH-1Zs. While I do think the PAA will eventually buy Z-10s from China, it probably won't happen until it is outfitted with more powerful turboshafts. Until then, the AH-1Z will gradually and incrementally form the mainstay of the dedicated attack helicopter fleet.


well the major offense is nearly over rearding coin, 15 zulus have been ordered by paa and it is a small number so i would expect them to order more, so i would expect this to be more of a trail batch as you did not may more for them as it was subsidised soit not much of a loss. also note that the lower spec supercobrashave the exact same air frame so they can be butchered for parts to upkeet te zulus. also you have ordered 32 ge engines so you have 2 spare engines there. 
the ohp's are gone and history, live with it buddy.

as for china the wz-16 engine will replace the wz-9 and will buy them more inbulk. its a mater of time when the h175's come in


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## aziqbal

At anyone time there is no more than 10 to 12 Cobras on the frontline due to condition of the air craft and air frame 

Getting 15 vipers means having high number of them ready to go on short notice 

Ideally more the better but we are talking more $$$

T129 is a high end engineered product again $$$ 

Z-10 is only option for high number of attack helos 

There's room for it to mature and we should build like a PAC version of it in Multan 

Having JF-17 and Z-10 programme in Pakistan would be good for our industry 

We should have invested in this rotary wing sector years ago

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## Quwa

aziqbal said:


> At anyone time there is no more than 10 to 12 Cobras on the frontline due to condition of the air craft and air frame
> 
> Getting 15 vipers means having high number of them ready to go on short notice
> 
> Ideally more the better but we are talking more $$$
> 
> T129 is a high end engineered product again $$$
> 
> Z-10 is only option for high number of attack helos
> 
> There's room for it to mature and we should build like a PAC version of it in Multan
> 
> Having JF-17 and Z-10 programme in Pakistan would be good for our industry
> 
> We should have invested in this rotary wing sector years ago


I agree. The numerical edge can only be had through the Z-10, but I do think we'll see a few additional AH-1Zs. Production has just started and Bell is anticipating additional export orders from other buyers. If there's a time to buy AH-1Zs in incremental batches (e.g. 5 here, 5 there, 5 somewhere, etc).


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## That Guy

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Is this deal canceled? Its been a while since we heard any news.


No, its not cancelled. It takes a few years for manufacturing and delivery, not to mention training to take place.

Like @viper0011 said, delivery should start next year.


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## Blabla

C130 said:


> Z-10 is underpowered . It's like the Tigre but less sophisticated.
> 
> I would remove Z-10 and go for a light scout helicopter like the MD-530G or AH-6I


Z-10 has some engine issues but in couple of years China will make an update in the engine They will become more lethal in future Z-10 already has a firing range of 10km Pakistan is already interested in a heavy helicopter like Mi-28


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## Signalian

I sincerely hope this deal gets blocked

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## Incog_nito

Are AH-1Z coming or not?

If yes then PAA should sell AH-1F/S to Bahrain or Jordan or may be to Korea or Japan that are upgrading them.... The cash can be used to for local production of Z-10P Block-I-II-IIIs.

I know all those which US has supplied for free can't be sold but they can be given with US permission.


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## mkiyani

its usa and pakistan .. u still need confirmation if its coming or not... of course its coming in.......... no they will say do more and keep their R@ND india happy and do more again... and this will be used against india so no...... they will again issue that they will sell F22 to pak than again do more do more .....


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## Areesh

Sarge said:


> I sincerely hope this deal gets blocked



why??


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## Signalian

Areesh said:


> why??



Eliminate dependency on US equipment


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## fatman17

Oxair Online said:


> Are AH-1Z coming or not?
> 
> If yes then PAA should sell AH-1F/S to Bahrain or Jordan or may be to Korea or Japan that are upgrading them.... The cash can be used to for local production of Z-10P Block-I-II-IIIs.
> 
> I know all those which US has supplied for free can't be sold but they can be given with US permission.



Are you serious

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## Incog_nito

If AH-1Z are coming then we should look to sell our AH-1 Cobras.


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## iby32

Should go for z10 or t129 instead


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## iby32

Shouod go for 20 mi35

40z10 or t129
15 ah1z no more american helos after these
If budget allowes


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## -BAJWA-

Oxair Online said:


> If AH-1Z are coming then we should look to sell our AH-1 Cobras.


Are you serious? Who is gonna buy them? They are aging and their fate is junk yard in future.

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## Djinn

Sarge said:


> I sincerely hope this deal gets blocked


Been hoping the same lol Great minds think alike

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## Incog_nito

-BAJWA- said:


> Are you serious? Who is gonna buy them? They are aging and their fate is junk yard in future.


Sir - you are right. I think PAA will complete their life and then retire them in phases. I think PAA have good options in their hands like Z-10 and ATAK which they should produce locally!


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## Dazzler



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oxair Online said:


> If AH-1Z are coming then we should look to sell our AH-1 Cobras.


The AH-1F/S will be used until they are no longer fly worthy.

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## aziqbal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The AH-1F/S will be used until they are no longer fly worthy.



Even if they can't fly they will use them as fixed artillery pieces on the ground !

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## khanasifm

The view of ah1 z model is absolutely magnification compared to ah1 older model and the pic above is view from rear seat perhaps the front is much better

Like f16 you are.sitting top and not dug into the aircraft

And looks.like you can fly from both seats front and rear

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## mingle

I hope Pak will get more deals with US in trump era


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## ziaulislam

if i am not wrong the deal is FMS(sale) not FMF(foreign military finance) so i expect pakistan to pay in full for the price


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## Army research

ziaulislam said:


> if i am not wrong the deal is FMS(sale) not FMF(foreign military finance) so i expect pakistan to pay in full for the price


Discounted price like the block 52 we were gonna get, but discount on them ended as the not coin weapons. This is coin weapon so discounted FMS


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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/833731059623800834

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> if i am not wrong the deal is FMS(sale) not FMF(foreign military finance) so i expect pakistan to pay in full for the price


They have and are


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## khanasifm

Recent payment of $300 M plus million for csf- can be applied towards it ???


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Recent payment of $300 M plus million for csf- can be applied towards it ???


Nope. gone to civilian khazana.


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Nope. gone to civilian khazana.



Sir if i am not wrong internal distributions of CSF is 60-40 ratio (60% for civilians [at the name of development of FATA & other terror hit areas] & 40% for defence [mainly for military])


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## fatman17

HRK said:


> Sir if i am not wrong internal distributions of CSF is 60-40 ratio (60% for civilians [at the name of development of FATA & other terror hit areas] & 40% for defence [mainly for military])



not aware of such arrangement. highly unlikely as govt. uses these funds for balancing / reducing its deficit.

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## fatman17

Have the 3 super cobras been delivered?


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## ZedZeeshan

fatman17 said:


> Have the 3 super cobras been delivered?


Not Yet


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## fatman17

ZedZeeshan said:


> Not Yet


Ok there is bad news coming. ....

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## Awan68

fatman17 said:


> Ok there is bad news coming. ....


, if it turns out to be another f 16 fiasco and they hand us soya beans again, someone needs to string up the establishment policy makers who after all that wonderful history still went for american platforms when chinese, turkish and russian ones were available...

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Ok there is bad news coming. ....


I guess we have made some payments already, US is unlikely to roll back now. If they do what good are our PMs friendly relation with the Saudis if we cannot ask them to talk to US. Saudia is actually RUNNING america these days. Kya faida asi tajurbakar team ka!

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> I guess we have made some payments already, US is unlikely to roll back now. If they do what good are our PMs friendly relation with the Saudis if we cannot ask them to talk to US. Saudia is actually RUNNING america these days. Kya faida asi tajurbakar team ka!


We had paid 650 million for the F16s also and got embargoed.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I'd advise against sounding alarm bells without official statements or sources. Bell Helicopters told Alan Warnes that the first three will be delivered sometime this year, I'd leave it at that for now.

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## LeGenD

Awan68 said:


> , if it turns out to be another f 16 fiasco and they hand us soya beans again, someone needs to string up the establishment policy makers who after all that wonderful history still went for american platforms when chinese, turkish and russian ones were available...


Those are not good enough.

Say what you want but American hardware is the best you can get for different missions.


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## Awan68

LeGenD said:


> Those are not good enough.
> 
> Say what you want but American hardware is the best you can get for different missions.


They are the most mature platforms due to seeing extensive offshore combat but that doesnt necesarily mean the other options are any less....what good is a machine when it becomes useless in war due to sanctions and embargo's?

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> I guess we have made some payments already, US is unlikely to roll back now. If they do what good are our PMs friendly relation with the Saudis if we cannot ask them to talk to US. Saudia is actually RUNNING america these days. Kya faida asi tajurbakar team ka!


but we dont have friendly relations with Saudis, we missed that boat while eygpt cashed in
we have friendly relations with iran



HRK said:


> Sir if i am not wrong internal distributions of CSF is 60-40 ratio (60% for civilians [at the name of development of FATA & other terror hit areas] & 40% for defence [mainly for military])


purpose of csf is to pay for military deployment expense on western boarder


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## Arsalan

ziaulislam said:


> but we dont have friendly relations with Saudis, we missed that boat while eygpt cashed in
> we have friendly relations with iran
> 
> 
> purpose of csf is to pay for military deployment expense on western boarder


Just a few weeks ago Iranian were threatening to attack inside Pak if i remember correctly. 
While on the other hand we joined the Saudi led alliance against Iran a few months back
Nawaz Sharif do have excellent personal relations with Saudia i think, why whas he totally ignored in the last summit? 

THESE ARE A FEW QUESTIONS PEOPLE SHOULD ASK OF THE GOVERNMENT! 
They are ruining every thing and what India could not do directly in terms of isolating Pakistan, he is doing that via his stooge Nawaz Sharif. May be the recent visit of family friend Jindal was related to that? 

@Zibago @Hell hound @Mentee @Mrc do you know of any PMLN supporters who can actually think about these things with a neutral mind and reply?

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## Mentee

Arsalan said:


> @Zibago @Hell hound @Mentee @Mrc do you know of any PMLN supporters who can actually think about these things with a neutral mind and reply?


he'll no ! Majority of this lot is deprived of using any intellect whatever is left there . To them It's all about "k" biradari . so , they will jump in to defend him no matter even if Quaid himself gonna resurrect from the dead -------

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## ziaulislam

Arsalan said:


> Just a few weeks ago Iranian were threatening to attack inside Pak if i remember correctly.
> While on the other hand we joined the Saudi led alliance against Iran a few months back
> Nawaz Sharif do have excellent personal relations with Saudia i think, why whas he totally ignored in the last summit?
> 
> THESE ARE A FEW QUESTIONS PEOPLE SHOULD ASK OF THE GOVERNMENT!
> They are ruining every thing and what India could not do directly in terms of isolating Pakistan, he is doing that via his stooge Nawaz Sharif. May be the recent visit of family friend Jindal was related to that?
> 
> @Zibago @Hell hound @Mentee @Mrc do you know of any PMLN supporters who can actually think about these things with a neutral mind and reply?



we never joined saudi led alliance, its just a show

there are three groups in current scenario
1. who actively joined saudis like gulf, UAE etc
2. who politically spoke against asad in syria and supported UN legitimate govt in Yemen but refuse to send military like eygpt and turkey
3. those who remained neutral and refused to condemn assad 

we belong to third group
hence, the recent advancements of india in GCC


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## Hell hound

Arsalan said:


> do you know of any PMLN supporters who can actually think about these things with a neutral mind and reply?


foreign policy is biggest chunk in our armor and after ayub i have yet to see anyone bringing some positive development in this area. truth be told i am a political atheist who once was afraid of imran's stance on America,afghanistan and talibans.but after seeing these n leagues butchering our already deformed foreign policy i think he would have been a lot better than nawaz.


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## volatile

LeGenD said:


> Say what you want but American hardware is the best you can get for different missions.


best for sanctions


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## Mrc

Arsalan said:


> Just a few weeks ago Iranian were threatening to attack inside Pak if i remember correctly.
> While on the other hand we joined the Saudi led alliance against Iran a few months back
> Nawaz Sharif do have excellent personal relations with Saudia i think, why whas he totally ignored in the last summit?
> 
> THESE ARE A FEW QUESTIONS PEOPLE SHOULD ASK OF THE GOVERNMENT!
> They are ruining every thing and what India could not do directly in terms of isolating Pakistan, he is doing that via his stooge Nawaz Sharif. May be the recent visit of family friend Jindal was related to that?
> 
> @Zibago @Hell hound @Mentee @Mrc do you know of any PMLN supporters who can actually think about these things with a neutral mind and reply?




foreign relations cannot be run on delusions... calm down...

we are not part of Saudi alliance as such for now...

as for Iranian, kalbushan yadev had a sanctuary in iran and it was not given on NS request , so did uzair Baloch even some of IK favourites have been coming and going through iran


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## cloud4000

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd advise against sounding alarm bells without official statements or sources. Bell Helicopters told Alan Warnes that the first three will be delivered sometime this year, I'd leave it at that for now.



Those helicopters are coming. There's no reason to stop them for any reason: Pakistan paid cash for them and given Trump's focus on increasing manufacturing jobs in US, they will no be embargoed. This is not the 1990s.


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## Arsalan

Mrc said:


> foreign relations cannot be run on delusions... calm down...


EXACTLY!!
The delusion of a tajurbakar team and its personal relations with Saudia coming to help the country have been busted at the loss of the nation!! What happened with us i Riyad was MORE than a slap on OUR faces. Now NS or his team, on faces of a common Pakistani. You are part of Saudi alliance so Iran is pissed at you and Saudis are in mood to show who the boss is so we are getting a beating there as well, NOT AN IDEAL SITUATION and all thanks to the delusion created by NS and Co. sir.



> we are not part of Saudi alliance as such for now...


Our defense minister says otherwise. 



> as for Iranian, kalbushan yadev had a sanctuary in iran and it was not given on NS request , so did uzair Baloch even some of IK favourites have been coming and going through iran


So what have the government done to STOP that?
Kulbushan should be hanged (seem he may get a business class ticket to India on NS's expense now), Uzair Baloch must be punished and what you call IK fav. must be DESTROYED. Government SHOULD step up and start addressing the real issues now rather then being busy in fooling the nation.

Anyway, i am sorry for getting off topic here, the point is that AH-1Z have been paid for. Any embargo on these will be criminal and Pakistan must get read to fight there case if any such thing happens.

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## ziaulislam

Pakistan has by default annoyed iran and made enemy from Afghan and india. But annoying GCC was by choice


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan has by default annoyed iran and made enemy from Afghan and india. But annoying GCC was by choice


Iran Pakistan relationship has been on the downswing since the Shah was overthrown, Afghanistan has always been our enemy, and India well enough said. ....

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Iran Pakistan relationship has been on the downswing since the Shah was overthrown, Afghanistan has always been our enemy, and India well enough said. ....


hence annoying GCC to "try" to make iran happy was poor choice. no body was asking you to send troops to yemen or syria, we just needed sound politics
we should be actively trying to play good guy and try to mend relationships between iran and saudis because this is simply not possible.

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> hence annoying GCC to "try" to make iran happy was poor choice. no body was asking you to send troops to yemen or syria, we just needed sound politics
> we should be actively trying to play good guy and try to mend relationships between iran and saudis because this is simply not possible.


Ideally but in politics, one always looks for its interests. Pakistan has always played to both sides, which doesn't work sometimes.


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## The Accountant

fatman17 said:


> Ideally but in politics, one always looks for its interests. Pakistan has always played to both sides, which doesn't work sometimes.


I think Pakistan did the right thing ,,, In short term we might face consequences but in long term its better ... Can't you see upcoming Iran KSA war ? Its inevitable ... Iran and KSA are going to destroy each other so we should just try to stop this politically (which we can't as both of the nations are too arrogant) ...

So the only option for country like Pakistan and Turkey is to take a back seat ... As in case of war between KSA and Iran someone has to take lead of Islamic countries and has to mediate ...

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## fatman17

The Accountant said:


> I think Pakistan did the right thing ,,, In short term we might face consequences but in long term its better ... Can't you see upcoming Iran KSA war ? Its inevitable ... Iran and KSA are going to destroy each other so we should just try to stop this politically (which we can't as both of the nations are too arrogant) ...
> 
> So the only option for country like Pakistan and Turkey is to take a back seat ... As in case of war between KSA and Iran someone has to take lead of Islamic countries and has to mediate ...


The only issue with that is spillover.

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## ghazi52

*Pakistan to Receive Three AH-1Z Attack Helicopters This Year*

Bell Helicopter reports that Pakistan Army’s order of three new AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters are scheduled to be delivered this year.




At the Paris Air Show 2017, vice president of international military sales at Bell Hellicopter, Rich Harris, shared this news with journalists. He said that the first three helicopters (from a total of 12) are being assembled in Amarillo, Texas.

The helicopters are undergoing final assembly and will be delivered this year to Pakistan. The other 9 helicopters are expected to be delivered in 2018.

*Missiles to Accompany AH-1Z*
The sale of the 15 AH-1Z helicopters was approved by the US State Department along with 1000 AGM-114R Hellfire II laser-guided air-to-surface missiles.

The total value of the package (which includes training, logistics and maintenance support) is $952 million.

The first three helicopters were ordered in August 2015, with an order of 9 more in April 2016.

*AH-1Z Specifications and Capabilities*
AH-1Z helicopters are powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, capable of producing an output of 1,800 shp. They have a maximum take-off weight of 8,390 kg and can carry as many as 16 anti-tank guided missiles.

The AH-1Z variants that Pakistan is getting will also come with:


Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display systems
Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System electro-optical and infrared pods
BAE AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare countermeasure dispensers
Northrop AN/APR-39C(v2) radar warning receivers
Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning receivers.
*Replacing AH-1F/S Cobra Helicopters*






_AH-1S Cobra_

Pakistan Army is ordering the AH-1Z to replace the AH-1F/S Cobra attack helicopters that are in use right now. They were primarily used for close air support (CAS) assets for counter insurgency operations in previous years.

The army has also ordered four Russian Helicopters Mil Mi-35M assault helicopters for $153 million. These will come with their own requisite support equipment.






_Russian Mi35M attack helicopter_

AH-1Z is a much heavier and complex helicopter compared with the AH-1F/S. It benefits from integrated subsystems, such as EO/IR pod (for situational awareness and ATGM targeting), countermeasures suite for anti-air warfare threats and HMD for seamlessly queuing the EO/IR pod to targets.

The Mi35M helicopters will also include similar subsystems, however they will be used primarily for lift capability (for troops, supplies and medical evacuation).

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## flameboard

every few years I hear Pakistan's low on cobra's and they're not working because of supply issues. Why not just go for something else?


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> The only issue with that is spillover.


Which in our case (Pakistan's) is highly likely if i may add sir.



flameboard said:


> every few years I hear Pakistan's low on cobra's and they're not working because of supply issues. Why not just go for something else?


We are going for T129 most likely thiugh both T129 and Chinese Z10 were evaluated.


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## litman

fatman17 said:


> The only issue with that is spillover.


we cant control everything.


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## fatman17

litman said:


> we cant control everything.


True


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## Pak_Sher

US Military hardware is awesome and great quality.

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## Abdullah Rahat

We already have enough attack helicopters (52) according to globalfirepower.
We have only 316 helicopters. India have 666! We need to increase it to atleast 500 before 2019.


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## Incog_nito

PAA will be getting these if I am not wrong:
15 AH-1Z Vipers ( may be follow up order of 15 more)
15-30 Mi-35s ( hope PAC get license to produce Mi-17s and Mi-35s)
15-30 ATAK being licensed produced @ PAC - hope this will happen in every 5 years time.

This shows how diverse is Pak Army and Pak Military....


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## Muhammad Omar

Oxair Online said:


> PAA will be getting these if I am not wrong:
> 15 AH-1Z Vipers ( may be follow up order of 15 more)
> 15-30 Mi-35s ( hope PAC get license to produce Mi-17s and Mi-35s)
> 15-30 ATAK being licensed produced @ PAC - hope this will happen in every 5 years time.
> 
> This shows how diverse is Pak Army and Pak Military....



12 AH-1Z are on Order 3 will be received this Year and 9 in 2018 
4 Mi-35 no order was replaced
30 T-129 ATAK talks are on going 

no one gives Licence Production for 15 Helicopters forget it


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## Incog_nito

Muhammad Omar said:


> 12 AH-1Z are on Order 3 will be received this Year and 9 in 2018
> 4 Mi-35 no order was replaced
> 30 T-129 ATAK talks are on going
> 
> no one gives Licence Production for 15 Helicopters forget it


I am saying that license to produce like 100s of Mi-17s and about 50 Mi-35s as there are the requirement for it.


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## Bossman

Oxair Online said:


> I am saying that license to produce like 100s of Mi-17s and about 50 Mi-35s as there are the requirement for it.


 How do you know they are the requirement?


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## Mahmood-ur-Rehman

fatman17 said:


> The only issue with that is spillover.


We just have to educate the sheas and wahabies of Pakistan to be more loyal to Pakistan as sheas of Iran and Wahabies of Saudia or loyal to their countries not loyal to Pakistan

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## Muhammad Omar

Oxair Online said:


> I am saying that license to produce like 100s of Mi-17s and about 50 Mi-35s as there are the requirement for it.



Mi-35 will only be used By Anti Narcotic Forces and Special Forces so we don't need that much Mi-35's 

rather will try for T-129 Local assembly & Over hauling in Pakistan


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## HAIDER



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## Trango Towers

Mahmood-ur-Rehman said:


> We just have to educate the sheas and wahabies of Pakistan to be more loyal to Pakistan as sheas of Iran and Wahabies of Saudia or loyal to their countries not loyal to Pakistan


Why don't they go to Iran and Saudis. Oh they don't want them do they !!!


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## Jinn Baba

Oh AH1Z where art thau? Why are you not in Pakistan yet


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## Safriz

Jinn Baba said:


> Oh AH1Z where art thau? Why are you not in Pakistan yet


One was delivered on 14th August.
Second coming this month.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/attack-helicopter-rivals-target-warsaws-kruk-deal-440924/

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## Jinn Baba

شاھین میزایل said:


> One was delivered on 14th August.
> Second coming this month.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/attack-helicopter-rivals-target-warsaws-kruk-deal-440924/



Oh yaar khush kar diya 

"Separately, Bell on 14 August delivered its first AH-1Z to an export customer, under a 12-aircraft deal with Pakistan. The remaining aircraft are scheduled to be handed over before the end of 2018."

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## khanasifm

This may be delivered in USA in a ceremony, think when all three for 2017 are ready then by end of year will be shipped to paa in pak perhaps in paf il78?? Or c-5

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## cloud4000

khanasifm said:


> This may be delivered in USA in a ceremony, think when all three for 2017 are ready then by end of year will be shipped to paa in pak perhaps in paf il78?? Or c-5



Probably An -124 will be used for such flights.


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## Cool_Soldier

Nice to hear they are coming as per schedule.
But USA put halt with used F-16 which suppose to come from Jordan.


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## khanasifm

Cool_Soldier said:


> Nice to hear they are coming as per schedule.
> But USA put halt with used F-16 which suppose to come from Jordan.



May be Oem pushing so pak can spend $$ to buy their Ac or from US stock

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> May be Oem pushing so pak can spend $$ to buy their Ac or from US stock


I am still convinced if we order New F16 we will get used as well for sure .That's how American do business .I remember Mush era Americans never allowed Belgian F16s so force us to go for New then gave us used ones .


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## Imran Khan

American weapons are drug for a force


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## TOPGUN

What color schme are the new Zulu's going to be any idea ?


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## imadul

Did Pakistan pay commercial price or reduced price packaged under DoD FMS?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan 
Thank you, folks.


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## Salza

they are not coming now


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## ZedZeeshan

imadul said:


> Did Pakistan pay commercial price or reduced price packaged under DoD FMS?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan
> Thank you, folks.


Commercial Price not reduce price..


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## Salza

partial FMS.

Also in late 80s and early 90s we paid commercial prices for the F16s but later on many were stopped


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## SQ8

Worst case scenario these Zulus will be requisitioned back by thr USMC as they are of fairly similar configuration.

However, it would seem that with backdoor channels these aircraft will arrive but only the number ordered and their status will be toys at best in the east and overkill in the internal front.

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## ziaulislam

if commercial price was paid one must ask why, especially the current trend of relations and abundance of other options
i understand the f-16s given its previous use with PAF but not the zulus


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## SQ8

ziaulislam said:


> if commercial price was paid one must ask why, especially the current trend of relations and abundance of other options
> i understand the f-16s given its previous use with PAF but not the zulus


The zulus offer a lot of common handling in the air and provide a proven platform and supplier experience to build on.

Simple analogy, you don’t know geely— you know mercedes and would prefer it if you could. Now if the relationship went sour because our non-existant leadership could not see what team the orange buffoon was brining with him; that is their fault and not the man who thinks we live in a fecalpit.

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## Zarvan

Salman Zahidi said:


> they are not coming now


Right now news of USA stopping them. I think USA will give them USA establishment is trying to calm down our leadership and saying they want to remain partners and all that. So Viper most likely will come


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Worst case scenario these Zulus will be requisitioned back by thr USMC as they are of fairly similar configuration.
> 
> However, it would seem that with backdoor channels these aircraft will arrive but only the number ordered and their status will be toys at best in the east and overkill in the internal front.


There are no embargoes in place. I guess the issue would be the possibility that the AH-1Zs were paid in part (or all) using FMF. However, the U.S. froze future payments, I don't know what it can do to retroactively suspend, that would just be punitive and a genuine sign of collapsing US-Pakistan defence ties (like the 1990s). However, the US DoD and DoS have been forthright about maintaining ties. The fact that the DoD is not worried about supply line closures is a clear sign that they're engaged with Pakistan. Finally, while political sides in Pakistan and the US are fuming, the bureaucrats and armed forces are trying to manage things.

The transfer of these birds, FMF and CSF is contingent on the DoD certifying Pakistan's work, so it's his word against Trump's fuming. It seems the DoD wants to sign-off, but he has to deal with Trump basically dismissing any real gains with a selfish tweet. If it's apparent that Trump is an unstable individual, then the DoD can bide its time and try to link Pakistan up via 3rd parties (e.g. Turkey/T129) to achieve strategic aims until Trump is out. Remember, in Carter's time the US had offered to link Pakistan up to financing sources in Europe for the purchase of Mirage 2000s instead of F-16s. If the AH-1Zs are canned then it's a matter of the US helping Turkey increase the loan to $2 bn so that Pakistan can get 45 T129 instead of 30. Remember, this is about aid money, not embargoes - so the LHTEC engines should, technically, be a go.

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## HannibalBarca

Someone is happy at TAI...



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are no embargoes in place. I guess the issue would be the possibility that the AH-1Zs were paid in part (or all) using FMF. However, the U.S. froze future payments, I don't know what it can do to retroactively suspend, that would just be punitive and a genuine sign of collapsing US-Pakistan defence ties (like the 1990s). However, the US DoD and DoS have been forthright about maintaining ties. The fact that the DoD is not worried about supply line closures is a clear sign that they're engaged with Pakistan. Finally, while political sides in Pakistan and the US are fuming, the bureaucrats and armed forces are trying to manage things.
> 
> The transfer of these birds, FMF and CSF is contingent on the DoD certifying Pakistan's work, so it's his word against Trump's fuming. It seems the DoD wants to sign-off, but he has to deal with Trump basically dismissing any real gains with a selfish tweet. If it's apparent that Trump is an unstable individual, then the DoD can bide its time and try to link Pakistan up via 3rd parties (e.g. Turkey/T129) to achieve strategic aims until Trump is out. Remember, in Carter's time the US had offered to link Pakistan up to financing sources in Europe for the purchase of Mirage 2000s instead of F-16s. If the AH-1Zs are canned then it's a matter of the US helping Turkey increase the loan to $2 bn so that Pakistan can get 45 T129 instead of 30. Remember, this is about aid money, not embargoes - so the LHTEC engines should, technically, be a go.


But you get more T129 for the price of 15xAH?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HannibalBarca said:


> Someone is happy at TAI...


IMO this is all on Trump. The US has maintained a foreign policy of steering Pakistan to focus on COIN/CT since Obama and the trend had been to gradually focus all military aid to Pakistan on that basis. But with his penchant to tweet whatever's on his mind, Trump has made it difficult for the DoD and DoS to execute that task at the original pace. Moreover, as much as it won't admit it publicly, the U.S. knows the situation in Afghanistan has its inherent issues (unrelated to Pakistan) and no amount of blaming Pakistan will change them. It's one thing to jab Pakistan for "do more" but wire the aid, but then to cut the aid, condemn Pakistan and then put Pakistan under pressure to close the supply lines if not more (e.g. PTI wants the US presence in Pakistan curtailed), this is on Trump.



HannibalBarca said:


> But you get more T129 for the price of 15xAH?


Upfront it's around the same, but the TAI offset package does reduce the net-foreign-currency outflow.

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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> Worst case scenario these Zulus will be requisitioned back by thr USMC as they are of fairly similar configuration.
> 
> However, it would seem that with backdoor channels these aircraft will arrive but only the number ordered and their status will be toys at best in the east and overkill in the internal front.


Very optimistic view


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> Very optimistic view


Probably, with the rest of the nation crumbling away: 12 semi useful helicopters are the least of problems.

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## Bilal Khan 777

imadul said:


> Did Pakistan pay commercial price or reduced price packaged under DoD FMS?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @fatman17 @Windjammer @Zarvan
> Thank you, folks.



this is a FMS case.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are no embargoes in place. I guess the issue would be the possibility that the AH-1Zs were paid in part (or all) using FMF. However, the U.S. froze future payments, I don't know what it can do to retroactively suspend, that would just be punitive and a genuine sign of collapsing US-Pakistan defence ties (like the 1990s). However, the US DoD and DoS have been forthright about maintaining ties. The fact that the DoD is not worried about supply line closures is a clear sign that they're engaged with Pakistan. Finally, while political sides in Pakistan and the US are fuming, the bureaucrats and armed forces are trying to manage things.
> 
> The transfer of these birds, FMF and CSF is contingent on the DoD certifying Pakistan's work, so it's his word against Trump's fuming. It seems the DoD wants to sign-off, but he has to deal with Trump basically dismissing any real gains with a selfish tweet. If it's apparent that Trump is an unstable individual, then the DoD can bide its time and try to link Pakistan up via 3rd parties (e.g. Turkey/T129) to achieve strategic aims until Trump is out. Remember, in Carter's time the US had offered to link Pakistan up to financing sources in Europe for the purchase of Mirage 2000s instead of F-16s. If the AH-1Zs are canned then it's a matter of the US helping Turkey increase the loan to $2 bn so that Pakistan can get 45 T129 instead of 30. Remember, this is about aid money, not embargoes - so the LHTEC engines should, technically, be a go.



Weapons are a tool of policy and relationship. They will always be used to enforce the dilly dally.

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## Ahmet Pasha

I had thought we were gonna assemble T129s in PAC???


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO this is all on Trump. The US has maintained a foreign policy of steering Pakistan to focus on COIN/CT since Obama and the trend had been to gradually focus all military aid to Pakistan on that basis. But with his penchant to tweet whatever's on his mind, Trump has made it difficult for the DoD and DoS to execute that task at the original pace. Moreover, as much as it won't admit it publicly, the U.S. knows the situation in Afghanistan has its inherent issues (unrelated to Pakistan) and no amount of blaming Pakistan will change them. It's one thing to jab Pakistan for "do more" but wire the aid, but then to cut the aid, condemn Pakistan and then put Pakistan under pressure to close the supply lines if not more (e.g. PTI wants the US presence in Pakistan curtailed), this is on Trump.
> 
> 
> Upfront it's around the same, but the TAI offset package does reduce the net-foreign-currency outflow.


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## Pindi Boy

Stealth said:


> Trust me these are not CRAPS lol... man deadly as hell! ruk tu ja Pakistan is playing similar blackmailing game that US playing with Pakistan since long time... Pakistan nay jhadi dekhaye hey Mi35 aur Z10 ke.. saath he Amreekans ke phat gaye hey kay if Pakistan will get non-sanction US hardware.. tu Pakistan tu finger dekhayega abhe thora sa counter terror pe haath sakht kya hey tu hamain aankhain dekha rahay Pakistan lol... fully nikal gaya tu WAR GAYE AMREEKAN lol


rok diye Helicopter or paisay phir se ab kya karoge?

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## imadul

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> this is a FMS case.
> 
> 
> 
> Weapons are a tool of policy and relationship. They will always be used to enforce the dilly dally.


Thank you for the response.
~ $952 million for 12 AH1Z vipers+ 1000 ATGMs + spares + accessories + training + delivery. Hell of a price tag!. How much Pakistan has to pay out of $952 million?
..and Biggest concerns for latter years will be to deal with potential embargoes on spares. 
Thanks again, Sir.


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## Bilal Khan 777

imadul said:


> Thank you for the response.
> ~ $952 million for 12 AH1Z vipers+ 1000 ATGMs + spares + accessories + training + delivery. Hell of a price tag!. How much Pakistan has to pay out of $952 million?
> ..and Biggest concerns for latter years will be to deal with potential embargoes on spares.
> Thanks again, Sir.



We are now immune to these embargoes.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Could you elaborate further if possible??


Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are now immune to these embargoes.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are no embargoes in place. I guess the issue would be the possibility that the AH-1Zs were paid in part (or all) using FMF. However, the U.S. froze future payments, I don't know what it can do to retroactively suspend, that would just be punitive and a genuine sign of collapsing US-Pakistan defence ties (like the 1990s). However, the US DoD and DoS have been forthright about maintaining ties. The fact that the DoD is not worried about supply line closures is a clear sign that they're engaged with Pakistan. Finally, while political sides in Pakistan and the US are fuming, the bureaucrats and armed forces are trying to manage things.
> 
> The transfer of these birds, FMF and CSF is contingent on the DoD certifying Pakistan's work, so it's his word against Trump's fuming. It seems the DoD wants to sign-off, but he has to deal with Trump basically dismissing any real gains with a selfish tweet. If it's apparent that Trump is an unstable individual, then the DoD can bide its time and try to link Pakistan up via 3rd parties (e.g. Turkey/T129) to achieve strategic aims until Trump is out. Remember, in Carter's time the US had offered to link Pakistan up to financing sources in Europe for the purchase of Mirage 2000s instead of F-16s. If the AH-1Zs are canned then it's a matter of the US helping Turkey increase the loan to $2 bn so that Pakistan can get 45 T129 instead of 30. Remember, this is about aid money, not embargoes - so the LHTEC engines should, technically, be a go.


its DoD own doing..they brief and certify Pakistan commitment and corporation
so this whole thing seems to be conspiracy theory..
i think that everyone is on the same page in US

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Amigator said:


> Indian Army has demanded AH-1Z helicopters for its Army Aviation Corps from USA.
> Now we will see, it's us or them who get first hand on these apaches.
> 
> https://www.express.pk/story/1103090/10/
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @ziaulislam @Ahmet Pasha


India has the AH-64E Guardian on order. Seems Express mixed up the AH-64E for the AH-1Z.

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## LegionnairE

it does seem a bit expensive... and I don't understand why 15 cobras and 1000 hellfires. it's not a 20mm cannon round you don't have to throw an ATGM to everything.

I do believe that Turkey could offer a better deal with a mix of UMTAS and Cirit missiles. UMTAS does the same thing as Hellfire and cirit offers a cheaper, lighter option against lighter targets.


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## TOPGUN

LegionnairE said:


> it does seem a bit expensive... and I don't understand why 15 cobras and 1000 hellfires. it's not a 20mm cannon round you don't have to throw an ATGM to everything.
> 
> I do believe that Turkey could offer a better deal with a mix of UMTAS and Cirit missiles. UMTAS does the same thing as Hellfire and cirit offers a cheaper, lighter option against lighter targets.



I believe those 1,000 hellfire missiles can be used on our older cobras as well that's why , why 15 cobars well that's what the US gov approved for simply.


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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> I believe those 1,000 hellfire missiles can be used on our older cobras as well that's why , why 15 cobars well that's what the US gov approved for simply.


but we have ordered only 12


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## TOPGUN

HRK said:


> but we have ordered only 12



Yes ordered 12 but were approved for 15 !!

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## GriffinsRule

Older Cobras cant use Hellfires. Its good that we ordered plenty of them as they would last us a while.


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## CHI RULES

We should go for three more on option.


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## TOPGUN

GriffinsRule said:


> Older Cobras cant use Hellfires. Its good that we ordered plenty of them as they would last us a while.



And who told you that they cant ? if the older Cobras can fire TOW then why not Hellfires?


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## MastanKhan

TOPGUN said:


> And who told you that they cant ? if the older Cobras can fire TOW then why not Hellfires?



Hi,

That could be due to computer program---.

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## ziaulislam

TOPGUN said:


> And who told you that they cant ? if the older Cobras can fire TOW then why not Hellfires?


they can if upgrades are made/integration is done, whther this has been done to PA cobras i dont know
its like we dont know whther PAF vipers can carry harpoons

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Jab Helicopter Land ker jaai to Bolna !!
2006 se , Super Cobra ki Carrot hai


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## Imran Khan

1000 hell fire for indian tanks only

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## GriffinsRule

TOPGUN said:


> And who told you that they cant ? if the older Cobras can fire TOW then why not Hellfires?



Common sense told me so.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That could be due to computer program---.



Software aside, its hardware related.

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## Narcissist

Oh wow... interesting. Big news.


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## khail007

HRK said:


> but we have ordered only 12


Sir G, may be this is because of sale promotional package 'Buy 12 + get 3 free'?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

LegionnairE said:


> it does seem a bit expensive... and I don't understand why 15 cobras and 1000 hellfires. it's not a 20mm cannon round you don't have to throw an ATGM to everything.
> 
> I do believe that Turkey could offer a better deal with a mix of UMTAS and Cirit missiles. UMTAS does the same thing as Hellfire and cirit offers a cheaper, lighter option against lighter targets.


Similar to UMTAS, we have Barq missiles.

But, US never allows integration of foriegn weapons on its platforms... unless you are israel.


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## WaLeEdK2

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Similar to UMTAS, we have Barq missiles.
> 
> But, US never allows integration of foriegn weapons on its platforms... unless you are israel.



What about Baktar Shikan on our cobras?


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## TOPGUN

GriffinsRule said:


> Common sense told me so.
> 
> 
> 
> Software aside, its hardware related.



So what you trying to say that I have no sense ?


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## GriffinsRule

TOPGUN said:


> So what you trying to say that I have no sense ?



TOW and Hellfire require different guidance and fire-control systems, not to mention even if PA had somehow managed to magically put some laser targeting systems on its Cobras, they would have had to perform integration somewhere as well ... of course with missile they still don't have!!
Of course that implies PA has not only the know-how of the architecture of the hellfire and how to interface it with the hardware in AH-1Fs but can also modify the legacy Cobras for such a feat without any American help or permission. 
Lets not forget that while a TOW weighs in around 22lbs each, a Hellfire missile (lets say R version which we ordered for the AH-1Z) is almost 110lb. So did PA modify the AH-1Fs to fire 2 missiles they don't have in the inventory instead of the 4-8 TOW missiles it can carry?
Hence, common sense tells me that no, AH-1Fs in PA cannot and will not at anytime in the future ever be capable of firing the Hellfire and claiming such a thing is utter crap.
As for your question, reflect upon it yourself and reach your own conclusions.

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## TOPGUN

GriffinsRule said:


> TOW and Hellfire require different guidance and fire-control systems, not to mention even if PA had somehow managed to magically put some laser targeting systems on its Cobras, they would have had to perform integration somewhere as well ... of course with missile they still don't have!!
> Of course that implies PA has not only the know-how of the architecture of the hellfire and how to interface it with the hardware in AH-1Fs but can also modify the legacy Cobras for such a feat without any American help or permission.
> Lets not forget that while a TOW weighs in around 22lbs each, a Hellfire missile (lets say R version which we ordered for the AH-1Z) is almost 110lb. So did PA modify the AH-1Fs to fire 2 missiles they don't have in the inventory instead of the 4-8 TOW missiles it can carry?
> Hence, common sense tells me that no, AH-1Fs in PA cannot and will not at anytime in the future ever be capable of firing the Hellfire and claiming such a thing is utter crap.
> As for your question, reflect upon it yourself and reach your own conclusions.



I don't have to reflect anything upon me as there is no conclusions it was a just simple question no need get more in to it thank you for the info and your good common sense.


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## Dazzler

Crown jewel of the Viper.. the TSS System















Overview
The Target Sight System (TSS) is the multi-sensor electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) fire control system (AN/AAQ-30A) for the U.S. Marine Corps AH-1Z attack helicopter. TSS has an infrared pointer, large-aperture mid-wave infrared (MWIR) sensor, color TV, laser designator/rangefinder (with eye-safe mode) and an on-gimbal inertial measurement unit integrated into a highly stabilized turret. The turret mounts to the nose of the aircraft via the Lockheed Martin-developed aircraft interface structure. TSS’ advanced sensors provide pilots with enhanced capabilities to acquire, track and designate targets at maximum weapon range, significantly enhancing platform survivability and lethality.

*Features*


Large aperture MWIR with four fields-of-view for maximum image resolution and long-range performance
Highly stabilized and inertially isolated gimbal for precise line-of-sight pointing
Multi-mode multi-target tracker for precision weapon designation and target geo-location
Advanced image processing to enhance target identification at extended ranges
High magnification, continuous zoom, color TV with field-of-view matched to the MWIR
Versatile modular architecture for future growth

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## Maxpane

Sir why we going to america for weapons after all that drama?


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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> TOW and Hellfire require different guidance and fire-control systems, not to mention even if PA had somehow managed to magically put some laser targeting systems on its Cobras, they would have had to perform integration somewhere as well ... of course with missile they still don't have!!
> Of course that implies PA has not only the know-how of the architecture of the hellfire and how to interface it with the hardware in AH-1Fs but can also modify the legacy Cobras for such a feat without any American help or permission.
> Lets not forget that while a TOW weighs in around 22lbs each, a Hellfire missile (lets say R version which we ordered for the AH-1Z) is almost 110lb. So did PA modify the AH-1Fs to fire 2 missiles they don't have in the inventory instead of the 4-8 TOW missiles it can carry?
> Hence, common sense tells me that no, AH-1Fs in PA cannot and will not at anytime in the future ever be capable of firing the Hellfire and claiming such a thing is utter crap.
> As for your question, reflect upon it yourself and reach your own conclusions.


currently no, future probably, i doubt america will have issue for system we already exist unless things are very bad and they want us to buy more gunships

i wonder what about turkish system..

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## Dazzler

16 hellfire missiles


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## Sine Nomine

Dazzler said:


> 16 hellfire missiles
> 
> View attachment 461736


This Drama of not showing Mi 35 and AH-1z to Public is pretty much getting boring.PA can only hide these choppers from General Public,who only have desire to see them in out colour.


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## Muhammad Omar

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> This Drama of not showing Mi 35 and AH-1z to Public is pretty much getting boring.PA can only hide these choppers from General Public,who only have desire to see them in out colour.



Maybe Pakistan Army will show them next year not each and everything is shown to public


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## Sine Nomine

Muhammad Omar said:


> Maybe Pakistan Army will show them next year not each and everything is shown to public


Indians know it,from whom else they are trying to hide.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Similar to UMTAS, we have Barq missiles.
> 
> But, US never allows integration of foriegn weapons on its platforms... unless you are israel.


Also, Turkey is working on with indigenous BVR and AESA integration with her F16s...

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## khanasifm

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> This Drama of not showing Mi 35 and AH-1z to Public is pretty much getting boring.PA can only hide these choppers from General Public,who only have desire to see them in out colour.



Mi-35 delivery confirmed by paa but not displayed ah-1z delivery not confirmed by anyone ???


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## princefaisal

HAKIKAT said:


> Also, Turkey is working on with indigenous BVR and AESA integration with her F16s...


May be this will also benefit our future JF17 models.

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## SQ8

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> This Drama of not showing Mi 35 and AH-1z to Public is pretty much getting boring.PA can only hide these choppers from General Public,who only have desire to see them in out colour.


What can you show if it is not in country?
If you are thinking that by “delivered “ to the PA means that the aircraft are in Pakistan then you are mistaken.

Just like the block-52s. The aircraft are not in Pakistan and are accepted at the manufacturers facility by the PaF. From there they go through certain acceptance and training with PA personnel before being put onto a suitable cargo carrier for Pakistan.

The first block 52 arrived in Pakistan 4 months after it was “delivered”. October 13 2009 is when the PAF had the unveiling ceremony and mid 2010 is when the aircraft actually landed in Pakistan. 

The same will be for the Zulus and Hinds.

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## Sine Nomine

Oscar said:


> What can you show if it is not in country?
> If you are thinking that by “delivered “ to the PA means that the aircraft are in Pakistan then you are mistaken.
> 
> Just like the block-52s. The aircraft are not in Pakistan and are accepted at the manufacturers facility by the PaF. From there they go through certain acceptance and training with PA personnel before being put onto a suitable cargo carrier for Pakistan.
> 
> The first block 52 arrived in Pakistan 4 months after it was “delivered”. October 13 2009 is when the PAF had the unveiling ceremony and mid 2010 is when the aircraft actually landed in Pakistan.
> 
> The same will be for the Zulus and Hinds.


With due respect sir,i know that but certain member like @Tipu7 said that Hinds are in Pakistan,that's why i was saying that.

Do you think sir,current diplomatic tug of war between Pakistan and US would have effect on AH-1Z Delivery.


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## mkiyani

Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment



Coz its F--Ing good.. it offers advance tech and more ... don't compare it with other helicopters coz if that were good enough our army would have bought that one first...

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## Arsalan

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> This Drama of not showing Mi 35 and AH-1z to Public is pretty much getting boring.PA can only hide these choppers from General Public,who only have desire to see them in out colour.


The drama have been the claims that they will be shown.


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## blinder

Have not seen any evidence of Mi-35 being in Pakistan, recent satellite images in the public domain do not show them on any of the army bases. They are likely handed over to PAA at Thorzok for training Pakistani crews. But that should be finished shortly. No doubt they will appear shortly.


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## Viking 63

MI-35 the best kept secret in Pakistan.


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## Dazzler

Viking 63 said:


> MI-35 the best kept secret in Pakistan.



Nah, that would be the three delivered AH-1 Zulus.


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## Maarkhoor

Oscar said:


> The same will be for the Zulus and Hinds.


02 Hinds are there but still need to resemble....Russian are giving only Tareekh pe Tareekh....


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## khanasifm

Are the payments for ah-1z partially funded by USA and partially by pak ? How much $$ got stuck this time ?


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## Liquidmetal

It is middle of April 2018, where the heck are the Zulus?


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## fatman17

Liquidmetal said:


> It is middle of April 2018, where the heck are the Zulus?


Delivery suspended

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Delivery suspended


Say a good bye induct more MI35 for short term and T 129 long term.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

USA ****ed us over since 2007 that we will get these mighty Zulus , we will be first nation to get them and we ****ed up our national defence need by not buying 80 Choppers from Russia/China since 2007

What year it is now 2018

Wasted 11 years almost a Decade !!!!!! For the magical helicopters from USA when could have bought *100-150 alternative defence machine* with same amount of money
Our folks overlooked the Z-10 for 11 years and did no bother placing large order for Russian Helicopters


Not sure what our folks smoke



China offered us Z-10 , we loved Zulus
Russia offered us Mi-35 , we took few handful items
South Africa offered us joint production , we said we getting our Zulus
Turkey is waiting to close deal for T129 and we are still talking about Zulus


Mean while Afghanistan is being armed up to start new problems for Pakistan and our folks are waiting for these Afghan army to be fully trained so they can come hit us on our own heads




Helicopters ~ 11 year wait for Zulu availability
Tanks ~ Engine nahi hai 
Plane ~ Engine nahi hai

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## Muhammad Omar

If the delivery of Zulu are suspended can Pakistan Army consider this machine here from Russia?? 

At least it won't comes with the strings attached

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## HannibalBarca

Muhammad Omar said:


> If the delivery of Zulu are suspended can Pakistan Army consider this machine here from Russia??
> 
> At least it won't comes with the strings attached
> 
> View attachment 469243
> View attachment 469244



Every " Strategic Defence Deals" come with "Strings"... Everyone of them... Whoever is the Country...Whoever it is...
No Strings... One solution...Do it yourself.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

HannibalBarca said:


> Every " Strategic Defence Deals" come with "Strings"... Everyone of them... Whoever is the Country...Whoever it is...
> No Strings... One solution...Do it yourself.


But still deal with Russians will have less strings then the deal with USA

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Muhammad Omar said:


> But still deal with Russians will have less strings then the deal with USA


As if Russia is our strategic ally?

Russ Pak ties aren’t up to that level and who knows they might cut spares and leave us high b dry..

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## Inception-06

fatman17 said:


> Delivery suspended



haha muahaha  they are handling us like a bitch!

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## The Accountant

Ulla said:


> haha muahaha  they are handling us like a bitch!


No ... Even b**h are paid after being f**ked

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## HannibalBarca

Muhammad Omar said:


> But still deal with Russians will have less strings then the deal with USA


No it's the same... the "Type/Subject" of strings will differ... But the result is the same.


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## The Accountant

HannibalBarca said:


> No it's the same... the "Type/Subject" of strings will differ... But the result is the same.


No brothers ... While during 1965 and 1971 US stopped our weapons delivery russia was providing the same to india on account ... Believe me had we not switched to chinese in 90s US had made our defence very weak ...

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## princefaisal

Muhammad Omar said:


> But still deal with Russians will have less strings then the deal with USA


Better to stick with TAI Atak-I and Atak-II. It will come with TOT.


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## python-000

So why this threat is still on turn it off as well


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## Maarkhoor

fatman17 said:


> Delivery suspended


No Sir, With in few months we will receive first batch of Zulus.

@Ulla


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## fatman17

Maarkhoor said:


> No Sir, With in few months we will receive first batch of Zulus.
> 
> @Ulla


I guess you know better than US Admin

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## Maarkhoor

fatman17 said:


> I guess you know better than US Admin


Lols

What i heard first batch of 3 Zulus will arrive end of July this year, first they threaten us to suspend delivery but after negotiations they agreed since these choppers greatly help us against TTP and Talibans.
Rest I don't know but I heard this from a P.A pilot of Cobra one month back.

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## Muhammad Omar

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> As if Russia is our strategic ally?
> 
> Russ Pak ties aren’t up to that level and who knows they might cut spares and leave us high b dry..



Then we only have 2 options 

Our Chinese friends 
And Turkish Friends


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## Ahmet Pasha

Turkish TAI T-129 all the way.

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## 帅的一匹

Mrc said:


> 1 billion would buy more than 50 z 10s. I dont understand pakistans fascination with US equipment


I would rather buy 150 units of Wing LongII UAV than manned helicopter.

50 millions USD for one manned helicopter is very high price. How you gonna field your enemy in numbers?

Don't tell me Pakistan is not rich.


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## The Accountant

wanglaokan said:


> I would rather buy 150 units of Wing LongII UAV than manned helicopter.
> 
> 50 millions USD for one manned helicopter is very high price. How you gonna field your enemy in numbers?
> 
> Don't tell me Pakistan is not rich.


This is not being bought on cash but coalition support fund ...


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## 帅的一匹

And the engine is made by USA, sanction pro. Maybe ToT included....



The Accountant said:


> This is not being bought on cash but coalition support fund ...


Soft loan or maybe credit given


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## The Accountant

wanglaokan said:


> And the engine is made by USA, sanction pro. Maybe ToT included....
> 
> 
> Soft loan or maybe credit given


No not credit but reimbursment of expenses of war on terror and other support as a part of support in afghan operations like providong route an security to us cargo ... We can receive weapons from this support so we really dont have a choice ...


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## 帅的一匹

The Accountant said:


> No not credit but reimbursment of expenses of war on terror and other support as a part of support in afghan operations like providong route an security to us cargo ... We can receive weapons from this support so we really dont have a choice ...


Did T129 have back-up powerplant?


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## dBSPL

wanglaokan said:


> Did T129 have back-up powerplant?



1- LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft ( first variant was developed for US RAH-66 project )
2- 1400 shp Indigenous turboshaft ( 2019-2020 ) https://www.tei.com.tr/detay/turbosaft-motor-gelistirme-projesi
3- Licensed production, Tei T700-GE-701D ( end of 2018 ) https://www.tei.com.tr/dosyalar/dosya/dosya_02122015103433.png

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## Tejas Spokesman

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042151267563393024


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## maximuswarrior

Excellent.

Look for other helicopters and show these backstabbing Americans a big middle finger.

Anyone still interested in some friendship with 'Murica?

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## khansaheeb

We are getting used to it, first F16s now AH-1Zs

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## Shabi1

The case to procure WZ-10s (improved variant) is very strong now. T-129s could be delayed as well.

Main reason AH-1Zs were selected in the first place was that their ammunition and maintenance could be paid for by US funds, they would have never reimbursed for WZ-10 or T-129 usage.

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## Windjammer

khansaheeb said:


> We are getting used to it, first F16s now AH-1Zs


A blessing in disguise.....hence we are now self sufficient in making the JF-17 and soon the T129 ATAK Gunships.

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## Peaceful Civilian

AZ-1H is very good purchase , expense but worth the price . We shound increase one dozen more in future.

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## princefaisal

Its better to get Mi-28NE from Russia as number of Apache helicopters in Indian Military will increase to 22 in near future.

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## Imran Khan

hahahahahha lucky Pakistan one less reason to be blackmailed by US . good news

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## Knight Rider

Good riddance. We can get more T-129 from Turkey with TOT. We can also pursue Russian options also. Russian weaponry is better than US junk for Pakistan because US junk comes with strings attached. US junk is more like a *VIRUS* for us.

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## Salza

and than some people were claiming that first 4 were already in Pakistan. Along with these choppers, US was to give us 1000 hellfire missiles. Huge miss.



Knight Rider said:


> Good riddance. We can get more T-129 from Turkey with TOT



We ain't getting that too because of Made in US engine. Ehhh!



Knight Rider said:


> ussian weaponry is better than US junk for Pakistan because US junk comes with strings attached. US junk is more like a *VIRUS* for us.



'Angoor khathey hain' - Pakistan situation at the moment.

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## Knight Rider

Salza said:


> and than some people were claiming that first 4 were already in Pakistan. Along with these choppers, US was to give us 1000 hellfire missiles. Huge miss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Angoor khathey hain' - Pakistan situation at the moment.


They are just blackmailing Pakistani government by storing them in their boneyard to see the reaction from the Pakistani government and their army. We should move on and explore the other part of the world for weapons also.



Salza said:


> We ain't getting that too because of *Made in US* engine. Ehhh!


Chinese Improved Z-10s with TOT can also be pursued as an option. I just hate this blackmailer US always blackmailing Pakistan. Pakistani Government and Army should stay strong on their decisions and look for other options from friendly countries.

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## Windjammer

Salza said:


> and than some people were claiming that first 4 were already in Pakistan. Along with these choppers, US was to give us 1000 hellfire missiles. Huge miss.
> 
> 
> 
> We ain't getting that too because of Made in US engine. Ehhh!
> 
> 
> 
> 'Angoor khathey hain' - Pakistan situation at the moment.


Albeit you are oozing with positivity but let me assure you just like Pakistan is now not much bothered about the held back F-16s, similarly it's not too fussed about the AH-1Z.....we are moving away from running around in circles.

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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> A blessing in disguise.....hence we are now self sufficient in making the JF-17 and soon the T129 ATAK Gunships.



But a good chance for multiple ID rat to use all of his monthly quota of Lux soap just because of this news



Professor Golwalkar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042151267563393024



Multiple ID rat is back @waz @WAJsal @Zaki @The Eagle

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## Windjammer

Areesh said:


> But a good chance for multiple ID rat to use all of his monthly quota of Lux soap just because of this news


Yes the loser is behaving like a monkey that has just found a banana.

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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> Yes the loser is behaving like a monkey that has just found a banana.



His story every time with every of his ID.

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## Path-Finder

over 90% of people were against this and knew what was going to happen.

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## Mentee

Windjammer said:


> Albeit you are oozing with positivity but let me assure you just like Pakistan is now not much bothered about the held back F-16s, similarly it's not too fussed about the AH-1Z.....we are moving away from running around in circles.


About time we increase toll tax on nato supplies btw did we already pay for this deal and which general or their kid got jobs in the US afterwards?

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## LKJ86

Knight Rider said:


> Chinese Improved Z-10s


Z-10ME is the upgraded version based on the test in Pakistan.
The engine of Z-10ME is said to be WZ-9H, whose power is improved from 1000KW to 1200KW.

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## Mentee

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME is the upgraded version based on the test in Pakistan.
> The engine of Z-10ME is said to be WZ-9H, whose power is improved from 1000KW to 1200KW.
> View attachment 499741
> View attachment 499742


There was no reason to not go for the z10. Whoever signed and executed this viper deal must be put on trial------.

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## LKJ86

Mentee said:


> There was no reason to not go for the z10. Whoever signed and executed this viper deal must be put on trial------.


I think Pakistan has chosen T-129.

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## Mentee

LKJ86 said:


> I think Pakistan has chosen T-129.


Again a crappy decision. Z10 is the only best bet for pak wrt gunships. It is the ever evolving Chinese state of the art technology and Pak cloud utilize it to its fullest . No strings attached no restrictions of no sorts - - - - - -

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## LKJ86

Mentee said:


> Again a crappy decision. Z10 is the only best bet for pak wrt gunships. It is the ever evolving Chinese state of the art technology and Pak cloud utilize it to its fullest . No strings attached no restrictions of no sorts - - - - - -


Pakistan has other considerations.


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## Mentee

LKJ86 said:


> Pakistan has other considerations.


Our idiot Generals ruined it once again


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## LKJ86

Mentee said:


> Our idiot Generals ruined it once again


T-129 is a good one to Pakistan.


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## Zhukov

Big question is. Z10 would have been delivered almost free of cost (From US military aid to Pakistan). Can we Afford to pay for Z10, or T129 or even Mi28 under these dire Financial situation where we are trying hard to avoid a bailout. Where will the Dollars come from to pay for this hardware?
Will China be willing to provide such military aid to Pakistan (Not Soft Loans) as Turkey is already facing tough financial situation. And Russia is always a cash dealer.
I don't see any gunships coming in significant numbers for some time now. Unless their is some sort of TOT deal on favorable terms


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## Knight Rider

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Big question is. Z10 would have been delivered almost free of cost (From US military aid to Pakistan). Can we Afford to pay for Z10, or T129 or even Mi28 under *these* *dire Financial situation where we are trying hard to avoid a bailout. Where will the Dollars come from to pay for this hardware?*
> Will China be willing to provide such military aid to Pakistan (Not Soft Loans) as Turkey is already facing tough financial situation. And Russia is always a cash dealer.
> I don't see any gunships coming in significant numbers for some time now. Unless their is some sort of TOT deal on favorable terms



How about buying Z-10s in Yuan's. 1 Yuan is about 17.98 PKR rupees. Why we need dollars to buy ??


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Very good news if true,
why don't we use this money to buy KA-52's or Mi-28s ?


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## Dazzler

Pakistan Army ' said:


> Very good news if true,
> why don't we use this money to buy KA-52's or Mi-28s ?



Mi-28s have already been test flown in Russia earlier this year.


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## Zhukov

Knight Rider said:


> How about buying Z-10s in Yuan's. 1 Yuan is about 17.98 PKR rupees. Why we need dollars to buy ??


Do you have Yuan in your Foreign Exchange Reserves to pay to china for These weapons?


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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME is the upgraded version based on the test in Pakistan.
> The engine of Z-10ME is said to be WZ-9H, whose power is improved from 1000KW to 1200KW.
> View attachment 499741
> View attachment 499742



The upgrades are pretty visible almost to the extent that you can tell shortcomings of the tesed version. The z-10 was liked by many in PA anyway.

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## SSGcommandoPAK

Dazzler said:


> Mi-28s have already been test flown in Russia earlier this year.


what about Ka-52, We can initially buy 10 units of KA's to counter Indian Apaches ?


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## Dazzler

Pakistan Army ' said:


> what about Ka-52, We can initially buy 10 units of KA's to counter Indian Apaches ?



Not considered.

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## Maarkhoor

Mentee said:


> Our idiot Generals ruined it once again


The deal is not finalized, even both Chinese and Turkish helo still under consideration.

Chinese helo have some engine issues at high altitudes while Turkish need approval to re-export foreign engines.

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> The z-10 was liked by many in PA anyway.


Really?


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## Imran Khan

my vote is combine 30 TAI - 30 Z10 60 units will be good number for country like paksitan

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## Arsalan

Strange. I think there were orders from other services for these same type of helicopters. Why send them to boneyard when there are potential customers lined up? These should have been sold to them directly. This looks like fake new.


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## Max

So $1.5 billion of tax payers wasted without any accountibility?

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> Really?



Yep. the chopper had some issues but then it was never designed for PAA to begin with. We asked for it and Chinese graciously handed three. The ATAK gave a tough competition though and hence got chosen but recommendations for z-10 were suggested and a revised model was asked for.

If this one has a more stable gun, more gun ammo, 8km atgms, up to 6000m ceiling, can lift 16 atgms, and a MMW radar, you will get the deal.

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## Salza

Max said:


> So $1.5 billion of tax payers wasted without any accountibility?



We didn't payed for the helicopters completely. I believe most of the financing was done through CSF.

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## Max

Salza said:


> We didn't payed for the helicopters completely. I believe most of the financing was done through CSF.



So don't we claim CSF is reimbursement of our money spent on support of Yankee war on terror?

Okay even if believe that it was all aid, so this justify wasting 1.5 billion dollars? There shouldn't be any accountibility?

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> If this one has a more stable gun, 8km atgms, up to 6000m ceiling, can lift 16 atgms, you will get the deal.


T-129 has already got the deal.

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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> T-129 has already got the deal.



ATAK cannot carry 16 atgms, if z-10 can, it will be inducted along with ATAK.

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## LKJ86

Dazzler said:


> ATAK cannot carry 16 atgms, if z-10 can, it will be inducted along with ATAK.


More information about Z-10ME will come out at Zhuhai Airshow-2018 in November.

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## Quwa

LKJ86 said:


> T-129 has already got the deal.


The T129 should excel in high-altitude environments, but if the Army is serious about building a serious CAS element through attack helicopters, they'll need a more affordable platform. Unlike most other non-US platforms, the Z-10 benefits from the PLA's scale (distributing the R&D overhead), making not only the cost of each unit competitive but the maintenance as well.

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## koolio

Its time for Pakistani's to move away from American tech, too many strings attached, rather than wasting money better to opt for other reliable partners, They should have learned what happened with the F16 deal with pressler amendment with the planes rotting in storage compounds.

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## Jinn Baba

Fooled me once, shame on you. Fooled me twice, shame on me. 

Lanat on our establishment that has been fooled again and again by amrika!

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## WarKa DaNG

Good very good


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## maximuswarrior

Jinn Baba said:


> Fooled me once, shame on you. Fooled me twice, shame on me.
> 
> Lanat on our establishment that has been fooled again and again by amrika!



Trust me. If these people understand after being fooled a 100 times it would be a blessing. We have developed a habit of enjoying being fooled.

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## Pakistansdefender

Haven't we paid for them in advance? 
What are we getting this time? Soybeans?


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## maximuswarrior

Pakistansdefender said:


> Haven't we paid for them in advance?
> What are we getting this time? Soybeans?



This time only the accusations to do more. Soybeans were only back in the good days.

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## khanasifm

US funds ?? They can keep it no pak funds only reason ordered were to utilize support funds going to OEM in USA 

Pak can pay and pick them up but as t-129 are ordered chances are they will not 

T-129 engine issue it’s commercial version so shouldn’t be a problem like k-8 engine but special cases to put pressure who knows 

The commercial and export version is the CTS800.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Mentee said:


> There was no reason to not go for the z10. Whoever signed and executed this viper deal must be put on trial------.


But, it might have been done on purpose to put your neighbor inside the ring face-to-face with the tigress while you sneak out...

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## Quwa

khanasifm said:


> US funds ?? They can keep it no pak funds only reason ordered were to utilize support funds going to OEM in USA
> 
> Pak can pay and pick them up but as t-129 are ordered chances are they will not
> 
> T-129 engine issue it’s commercial version so shouldn’t be a problem like k-8 engine
> 
> The commercial and export version is the CTS800.


The one thing they had going with the AH-1Z/T129 combo was that the AH-1Z was heavier than the T129 (8+ ton vs. 5+ ton). So without the AH-1Z, that 'heavyweight' aspect is not there, which might (or might not) leave room for an alternative, if possible. @Oscar Piloting a Mi-28NE deal with Russia (12-15 helicopters) might be interesting, especially if it's done via Rosoboronexport's local currency trade, offset and countertrade program.

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## Mentee

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> But, it might have been done on purpose to put your neighbor inside the ring face-to-face with the tigress while you sneak out...


The last time I checked zulu nation isn't ready to give us gunship tot. Don't know who might be that "secret" source when Indian aviators have already been checking out the apache cockpits for any possible bugs .


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## LKJ86

Quwa said:


> The one thing they had going with the AH-1Z/T129 combo was that the AH-1Z was heavier than the T129 (8+ ton vs. 5+ ton). So without the AH-1Z, that 'heavyweight' aspect is not there, which might (or might not) leave room for an alternative, if possible. @Oscar Piloting a Mi-28NE deal with Russia (12-15 helicopters) might be interesting, especially if it's done via Rosoboronexport's local currency trade, offset and countertrade program.


China is developping a new heavy attack helicopter (about 10 ton). It will make its maiden flight very soon. Maybe there will be a cooperation between China and Pakistan in the future.

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## Basel

Professor Golwalkar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042151267563393024



Going for these instead of other available options (Mi-28, Z-10, Tiger, T-129) was a bad move, as we know that this what US do after getting the what they want from Pakistan.

Pakistan should now try to get Ka-52/Ka-52K for testing as this is one mean bird and "K" version can be used on Naval platforms with 200km range AShM capability.



Quwa said:


> The one thing they had going with the AH-1Z/T129 combo was that the AH-1Z was heavier than the T129 (8+ ton vs. 5+ ton). So without the AH-1Z, that 'heavyweight' aspect is not there, which might (or might not) leave room for an alternative, if possible. @Oscar Piloting a Mi-28NE deal with Russia (12-15 helicopters) might be interesting, especially if it's done via Rosoboronexport's local currency trade, offset and countertrade program.



Why Mi-28NE?? why not the beast Ka-52/Ka-52K to tackle enemy Armour & Ships?


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## Mav3rick

I say the ones who advocated and ordered these, despite the Pressler Amendment, should be given a big fat stick up their ***, it should also be full of chillies!!

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## SQ8

Quwa said:


> The one thing they had going with the AH-1Z/T129 combo was that the AH-1Z was heavier than the T129 (8+ ton vs. 5+ ton). So without the AH-1Z, that 'heavyweight' aspect is not there, which might (or might not) leave room for an alternative, if possible. @Oscar Piloting a Mi-28NE deal with Russia (12-15 helicopters) might be interesting, especially if it's done via Rosoboronexport's local currency trade, offset and countertrade program.


The Mi-28 is ill suited for the very agile and fast moving battlefield we are expecting- sadly, not much is there to show for it but now I would hope someone from the right ladders in SA steps in to offer the Roolivak as an alternative @denel .
As far as I can tell thought development funding has ceased and Pakistan is not rich enough to fund anything.
A better option is the KA-52 but those cost more than the Mi-28 even though they are smaller in size.



Arsalan said:


> Strange. I think there were orders from other services for these same type of helicopters. Why send them to boneyard when there are potential customers lined up? These should have been sold to them directly. This looks like fake new.


Changes specific to Pakistan have been incorporated which other customers may not accept without refit.

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## CHI RULES

Quwa said:


> The one thing they had going with the AH-1Z/T129 combo was that the AH-1Z was heavier than the T129 (8+ ton vs. 5+ ton). So without the AH-1Z, that 'heavyweight' aspect is not there, which might (or might not) leave room for an alternative, if possible. @Oscar Piloting a Mi-28NE deal with Russia (12-15 helicopters) might be interesting, especially if it's done via Rosoboronexport's local currency trade, offset and countertrade program.



Sir the best choice tech wise is still AH1Z, considering future roles Pak should acquire Attack helis with some sort of AD capabilities i.e A2A missiles, as in case of any direct conflict the chance of A2A engagements of Helicopters shall be inevitable.

The Russian attack helicopters are though capable yet considering their low service ceiling and less powerful engines may not be better choice along with historical spares/maintenance issues most of their previous clients have faced.

The second better choice can be South African Denel Rooivalk as pointed by you also in the past.

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## Umair Nawaz

Windjammer said:


> A blessing in disguise.....hence we are now self sufficient in making the JF-17 and soon the T129 ATAK Gunships.


but what abt that money that have been paid for them? and what abt those officers who came up with this idea on the first place to purchase from america even in these circumstances.
But cant we just close or limit their NATO supplies to make them give or co-operate with us atleast?



LKJ86 said:


> Really?


yes it was unique features, ie its very stealthy, u still cant hear it just 300 to 400 meters away, now imagine this at night operations in mountains? where u can hide it behind rocks or trees and suddenly come out and ambush enemy.

But problem with this helo was it could not lift its fully loaded wait, engine under performed. And specially at high altitudes it couldnt get lift off with wait....Now its company had given its max load limit both in plan areas and mountains but it even couldnt achieve that company issued limits so what to speak of hard tests to fully know the max limits of its design and capabilities etc by which it was supposed to be tested along with Atak helos.



Mav3rick said:


> I say the ones who advocated and ordered these, despite the Pressler Amendment, should be given a big fat stick up their ***, it should also be full of chillies!!


inquiry must be launched and they should be put to trail to be eventually court marshaled.


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## Foxtrot Delta

Professor Golwalkar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042151267563393024


Good thing army already knew this and went for, diversification through turkish, italian, chinese and russian attack helicopters. No matter what they do , i'd say good ridance america and its problems. We are better off with tech we can use to protect our people instead of white elephants which we come with strings attached. It is very good that we are moving out of American dependency. After lookimg at what USA did to its Best and most used Allies in battle (turkey and pakistan) rest of american friends like Japan india france germany and canada can know they can't depend on america for its tech. They are only good as long as you say "yes master" to the americans. Shove those attack helicopters in ur huge asses. We are buying more from trust worthy sources and hopefully will make them in pakistan to shove down those in ur throats when the time comes be it in afghanistan or syria.

American weapon shop is a bad shop they take ur money and give conditions for delivering them. Id say avoid the american weapons.

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## prashantazazel

Truth is, if Pakistan doesn't initiate, there won't be any future wars with neighbours. The only deterrence you need is against the US.


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## cloud4000

Mentee said:


> There was no reason to not go for the z10. Whoever signed and executed this viper deal must be put on trial------.



Pakistan never learns from its mistakes. Whenever there's an opening with the US, Pakistan pursues it regardless of consequences. What happened during the 1990s should have been a sobering moment but it seems to have been forgotten.

Many people on PDF are saying "never again," but we know that soon as things get better with US (once Afghanistan gets resolved) the love affair with American arms will be rekindled.

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## That Guy

cloud4000 said:


> Pakistan never learns from its mistakes. Whenever there's an opening with the US, Pakistan pursues it regardless of consequences. What happened during the 1990s should have been a sobering moment but it seems to have been forgotten.
> 
> Many people on PDF are saying "never again," but we know that soon as things get better with US (once Afghanistan gets resolved) the love affair with American arms will be rekindled.


Not really.

The fact that Pakistan is now active courting Russian, Turkish and Chinese arms manufacturers for advanced weapons systems, should be evidence that Pakistan has learned its lesson.

I can almost guarantee you that the reason why the new rifle tender is taking so long is because Pakistan does not want to deal with US systems, potential components, and potential sanctionable technologies used for those rifles.

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## baapu

Knight Rider said:


> How about buying Z-10s in Yuan's. 1 Yuan is about 17.98 PKR rupees. Why we need dollars to buy ??



best argument ever.

rouble is around Rs 1.85. all military purchase should be from Russia.


Because US is no longer giving away the Helicopter , you guys call it names , never mind bhikari was already calling americans what not.

Also the title of thread is not correct .

Those Helicopters do not BELONG TO PAKISTAN.


So now the choice is , Pay $30 million /helicopter to 15 Bell Viper helicopter or buy Z10s from China for $20 million each.
Or Buy them from Turkey ?


faqeer ko bheek nahi mili tou galiyaan.

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## Maarkhoor

Arsalan said:


> Strange. I think there were orders from other services for these same type of helicopters. Why send them to boneyard when there are potential customers lined up? These should have been sold to them directly. This looks like fake new.


Every export jet / helo was somehow customized at some level to meet importers requirements further they need carrot or lolipop hanging to lure Pakistani Govt / military.


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## baapu

cloud4000 said:


> Pakistan never learns from its mistakes. Whenever there's an opening with the US, Pakistan pursues it regardless of consequences. What happened during the 1990s should have been a sobering moment but it seems to have been forgotten.
> 
> Many people on PDF are saying "never again," but we know that soon as things get better with US (once Afghanistan gets resolved) the love affair with American arms will be rekindled.



I'm afraid you're incorrect. I really wish you _WERE_ correct, because that really is the best option for Pakistan. India wished it were in that position. But the information age has arrived in Pakistan. even tho Pakistanis are trying hard to roll it back .
With information age come populist rhetoric. populist rhetoric is always extremist. Unfortunately Pakistanis are unprepared mentally and are easily roiled by loud voices of Ummah and evil whatnot. So anyone can easily redirect them.
The only way out of this is military rule, but if that option is exercised the American option is out anyways due to what the current terms are for the "enhanced partnership bill" . So Pakistan has to develop and mature on its own. this might take 2-3 decades. or maybe never.



Arsalan said:


> Strange. I think there were orders from other services for these same type of helicopters. Why send them to boneyard when there are potential customers lined up? These should have been sold to them directly. This looks like fake new.



Boneyard is not a scrapyard which its name seems to imply. yes there is some aircraft there that are indeed scrap, but its mainly a storage facility for excess capacity aircraft and military equipment.

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## baapu

Arsalan said:


> Strange. I think there were orders from other services for these same type of helicopters. Why send them to boneyard when there are potential customers lined up? These should have been sold to them directly. This looks like fake new.



They have orders from Marines and Navy but those deliveries are not due until mid next year. So most likely the infrastructure required isnt in place.


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## Knight Rider

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Do you have Yuan in your Foreign Exchange Reserves to pay to china for These weapons?





baapu said:


> best argument ever.
> 
> *rouble is around Rs 1.85. all military purchase should be from Russia*.
> 
> 
> Because US is no longer giving away the Helicopter , you guys call it names , never mind bhikari was already calling americans what not.
> 
> Also the title of thread is not correct .
> 
> Those Helicopters do not BELONG TO PAKISTAN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> faqeer ko bheek nahi mili tou galiyaan.



Bheek hum Allah say mangtay hai maty say nahi.

Slave minded CIA Zombie is no different than a Patwari who supports Noonis. American brainwashed lackey should instead go and live in America rather than Europe, so he can easily worship them there.

China and Russia already favoring their own currencies over the dollar and are making efforts to ditch the dollar. So heres a link for the false flag to read and understand.

https://www.rt.com/business/423930-russia-china-dollar-trade/

Here more for the False flag to read that China is offering Pakistan to trade in Yuan to help decrease trade deficit.

https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk...to-trade-in-yuan-help-decrease-trade-deficit/

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## Basel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir the best choice tech wise is still AH1Z, considering future roles Pak should acquire Attack helis with some sort of AD capabilities i.e A2A missiles, as in case of any direct conflict the chance of A2A engagements of Helicopters shall be inevitable.
> 
> The Russian attack helicopters are though capable yet considering their low service ceiling and less powerful engines may not be better choice along with historical spares/maintenance issues most of their previous clients have faced.
> 
> The second better choice can be South African Denel Rooivalk as pointed by you also in the past.



Kindly check capabilities of Ka-52 & Ka-52K later one can even take on AShM role with 200km range missile and can fire those with its own radar.



Oscar said:


> The Mi-28 is ill suited for the very agile and fast moving battlefield we are expecting- sadly, not much is there to show for it but now I would hope someone from the right ladders in SA steps in to offer the Roolivak as an alternative @denel .
> As far as I can tell thought development funding has ceased and Pakistan is not rich enough to fund anything.
> A better option is the KA-52 but those cost more than the Mi-28 even though they are smaller in size.
> 
> 
> Changes specific to Pakistan have been incorporated which other customers may not accept without refit.



Ka-52 / Ka-52K is a beast compared to Mi-28s, they are NCW birds with heavy weapons carrying capabilities and agile, nimble flying characteristics.

Check out video I have shared here.


----------



## baapu

Knight Rider said:


> Bheek hum Allah say mangtay hai maty say nahi.
> 
> Slave minded CIA Zombie is no different than a Patwari who supports Noonis. American brainwashed lackey should instead go and live in America rather than Europe, so he can easily worship them there.
> 
> China and Russia already favoring their own currencies over the dollar and are making efforts to ditch the dollar. So heres a link for the false flag to read and understand.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/business/423930-russia-china-dollar-trade/
> 
> Here more for the False flag to read that China is offering Pakistan to trade in Yuan to help decrease trade deficit.
> 
> https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk...to-trade-in-yuan-help-decrease-trade-deficit/



no youre one of those bhikary who demand money and if youre not given you curse and throw rocks.



Basel said:


> Kindly check capabilities of Ka-52 & Ka-52K later one can even take on AShM role with 200km range missile and can fire those with its own radar.
> 
> 
> 
> Ka-52 / Ka-52K is a beast compared to Mi-28s, they are NCW birds with heavy weapons carrying capabilities and agile, nimble flying characteristics.
> 
> Check out video I have shared here.




$$? .


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## Knight Rider

baapu said:


> no youre one of those bhikary who demand money and if youre not given you curse and throw rocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $$? .


I never threw any rocks but words in my argument. You my friend are just trolling and nothing more.


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## baapu

Knight Rider said:


> I never threw any rocks but words in my argument. You my friend are just trolling and nothing more.



the message You quoted in your replay, is me asking for the price of the Ka52 Helis

I think you intended to refer to my response to you. I don't mean you specifically. I mean the many people cursing for " putting Pakistan's Helicopters to scrap instead of giving rightful delivery"


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## Basel

baapu said:


> no youre one of those bhikary who demand money and if youre not given you curse and throw rocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $$? .



You Indians can not come up any other point then that?? Why you are concerned how we pay our purchases?? 

If we can buy 8 Ships, 30 Attack Helicopters, 8 Sub's, FACs, MPAs, MR SAMs, etc. Then we can buy those too if required.

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## Salza

Well now Pakistani media is reporting they US govt is thinking to release militarily aid to Pakistan from next year under new fund. So we may eventually see these helis under Pakistani flag after all. News might be untrue but I am trying to find US source for this news.


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## Peaceful Civilian

baapu said:


> Because US is no longer giving away the Helicopter
> Those Helicopters do not BELONG TO PAKISTAN.


U.S.A just restored 300 million dollar and recent news say U.S.A want to work with new government. We will soon see AZ 1H in Pakistan. Russian attack helicopters are great but they can’t beat AZ 1H w.r.t Performance & quality.
We should order few more of those with hellfire missiles & sidewinders too .

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## Signalian

Peaceful Civilian said:


> U.S.A just restored 300 million dollar and recent news say U.S.A want to work with new government. We will soon see AZ 1H in Pakistan. Russian attack helicopters are great but they can’t beat AZ 1H w.r.t Performance & quality.
> We should order few more of those with hellfire missiles & sidewinders too .



AH-1Z can reach the altitude.


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## Foxtrot Delta

LKJ86 said:


> I think Pakistan has chosen T-129.


one platform is not enough we need 3 atleast. and Z-10 is a candidate still. once it performs as good as we want it to.

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## CHI RULES

Basel said:


> Kindly check capabilities of Ka-52 & Ka-52K later one can even take on AShM role with 200km range missile and can fire those with its own radar.
> 
> 
> 
> Ka-52 / Ka-52K is a beast compared to Mi-28s, they are NCW birds with heavy weapons carrying capabilities and agile, nimble flying characteristics.
> 
> Check out video I have shared here.


Can KA 52 survive against Apache and SAMs with low service ceiling. Further it is evident from history that Russian gadgets have mostly under performed against American tech. The classic examples are Arab/Israel wars, Iraq war and even in Syria air defenses have not performed satisfactory. Most of the Russian exported tech is prone to jamming, spares issues and heavy maintenance costs.

The American tech is still superior the only competitors so far are EU gadgets which are expensive and they mostly avoid to supply them without US consent. The good news is US administration has now explained that they are looking in to matter to once again to start the coalition support fund program for Pakistan as it starts then their is high hope that Pak shall get the stored AH1Zs along with highly capable Hellfire missile.

On other hand once Turkey's T129 platform once matures, they shall go for heavy version so by entering in this program Pak has lot of opportunities. Meanwhile in short span of time if AH1Z is not supplied then we may go for Denel Roovilack.

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## Basel

CHI RULES said:


> Can KA 52 survive against Apache and SAMs with low service ceiling. Further it is evident from history that Russian gadgets have mostly under performed against American tech. The classic examples are Arab/Israel wars, Iraq war and even in Syria air defenses have not performed satisfactory. Most of the Russian exported tech is prone to jamming, spares issues and heavy maintenance costs.
> 
> The American tech is still superior the only competitors so far are EU gadgets which are expensive and they mostly avoid to supply them without US consent. The good news is US administration has now explained that they are looking in to matter to once again to start the coalition support fund program for Pakistan as it starts then their is high hope that Pak shall get the stored AH1Zs along with highly capable Hellfire missile.
> 
> On other hand once Turkey's T129 platform once matures, they shall go for heavy version so by entering in this program Pak has lot of opportunities. Meanwhile in short span of time if AH1Z is not supplied then we may go for Denel Roovilack.



Ka-52 carry 6 IGLA AAMs with other ordinance, please see video about it which I shared here.


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## Thorough Pro

Screw USA and their jets and their helos and their aid.

We'll be real stupid to continue our relations with amreeki pigs




Peaceful Civilian said:


> U.S.A just restored 300 million dollar and recent news say U.S.A want to work with new government. We will soon see AZ 1H in Pakistan. Russian attack helicopters are great but they can’t beat AZ 1H w.r.t Performance & quality.
> We should order few more of those with hellfire missiles & sidewinders too .


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10ME is the upgraded version based on the test in Pakistan.
> The engine of Z-10ME is said to be WZ-9H, whose power is improved from 1000KW to 1200KW.
> View attachment 499741
> View attachment 499742


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-weapon-exports.273332/page-89#post-10802464


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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Can KA 52 survive against Apache and SAMs with low service ceiling. Further it is evident from history that Russian gadgets have mostly under performed against American tech. The classic examples are Arab/Israel wars, Iraq war and even in Syria air defenses have not performed satisfactory. Most of the Russian exported tech is prone to jamming, spares issues and heavy maintenance costs.
> 
> The American tech is still superior the only competitors so far are EU gadgets which are expensive and they mostly avoid to supply them without US consent. The good news is US administration has now explained that they are looking in to matter to once again to start the coalition support fund program for Pakistan as it starts then their is high hope that Pak shall get the stored AH1Zs along with highly capable Hellfire missile.
> 
> On other hand once Turkey's T129 platform once matures, they shall go for heavy version so by entering in this program Pak has lot of opportunities. Meanwhile in short span of time if AH1Z is not supplied then we may go for Denel Roovilack.


.. rooivalk.... Rooi-> Red; Valk -> Falcon. Rooivlack - means something vulgar.


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## maximuswarrior

CHI RULES said:


> Can KA 52 survive against Apache and SAMs with low service ceiling. Further it is evident from history that Russian gadgets have mostly under performed against American tech. The classic examples are Arab/Israel wars, Iraq war and even in Syria air defenses have not performed satisfactory. Most of the Russian exported tech is prone to jamming, spares issues and heavy maintenance costs.
> 
> The American tech is still superior the only competitors so far are EU gadgets which are expensive and they mostly avoid to supply them without US consent. The good news is US administration has now explained that they are looking in to matter to once again to start the coalition support fund program for Pakistan as it starts then their is high hope that Pak shall get the stored AH1Zs along with highly capable Hellfire missile.
> 
> On other hand once Turkey's T129 platform once matures, they shall go for heavy version so by entering in this program Pak has lot of opportunities. Meanwhile in short span of time if AH1Z is not supplied then we may go for Denel Roovilack.



What you fail to mention is that for a country like Pakistan American hardware is always sanction prone. The Americans change their mind every other day. It all depends on their mood.

Pakistan cannot rely on such a supplier. Even if the supplier has the best hardware available. What good is superior hardware without logistics, spares etc.?

Pakistan must at all cost diversify and look at Chinese and Russian options. Since Pakistan has paid for the AH1Z order it will accept the delivery at any stage. That doesn't mean we should rely on an unreliable supplier like the US. Even if the Russian/Chinese helicopters are inferior or lack on certain levels they are worth it. *A better deal for Pakistan would be to setup some sort of JV with China or Russia and produce the helicopters domestically.*


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## denel

maximuswarrior said:


> What you fail to mention is that for a country like Pakistan American hardware is always sanction prone. The Americans change their mind every other day. It all depends on their mood.
> 
> Pakistan cannot rely on such a supplier. Even if the supplier has the best hardware available. What good is superior hardware without logistics, spares etc.?
> 
> Pakistan must at all cost diversify and look at Chinese and Russian options. Since Pakistan has paid for the AH1Z order it will accept the delivery at any stage. That doesn't mean we should rely on an unreliable supplier like the US. Even if the Russian/Chinese helicopters are inferior or lack on certain levels they are worth it. *Even better deal for Pakistan would be to setup a JV with China or Russia and produce the helicopters domestically.*


That is where the challenge is. If they had gone for Rooivalk long back; everything on it is internally produced. We learnt long long time back you cannot trust the US or Europeans when it comes to sanctions.

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## 313ghazi

No harm done. They were paid for by the money the Americans were "giving" us. It's not like we've ever seen a cent of it anyway.

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## maximuswarrior

denel said:


> That is where the challenge is. If they had gone for Rooivalk long back; everything on it is internally produced. We learnt long long time back you cannot trust the US or Europeans when it comes to sanctions.



I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.


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## denel

maximuswarrior said:


> I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.


Yes, as i have said for a very long time, there is a lot of TOT going back but there has been no efforts to capitalise by Pak people; they have fallen into the aid mentality. They need mine proof vehicles desperately, yet they never came to us; to setup a fabrication and manufacturing capability is turn key for us; we did it all over the place - look at Oshkosh/US, UAE, KSA, Kazakstan etc etc. just names are different underneath same pedigree from Armscor/Paramount.
We will deliver the product and have it made specific to needs; we have lived through sanctions and it is in our dna to go against the grain.... proverbial saying here 'we will make a plan'.

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## baapu

denel said:


> Yes, as i have said for a very long time, there is a lot of TOT going back but there has been no efforts to capitalise by Pak people; they have fallen into the aid mentality. They need mine proof vehicles desperately, yet they never came to us; to setup a fabrication and manufacturing capability is turn key for us; we did it all over the place - look at Oshkosh/US, UAE, KSA, Kazakstan etc etc. just names are different underneath same pedigree from Armscor/Paramount.
> We will deliver the product and have it made specific to needs; we have lived through sanctions and it is in our dna to go against the grain.... proverbial saying here 'we will make a plan'.




Will you give it for free? Are you an approved supplier for US Subsidised equipment? Thats how the Pakistani Trade goes as you are aware. 

Pakistan has had mutiple and still has multiple manufacturing facilities for these BTW. But you used the right word. "
turn key" 
On a separate note . You deal with them. Let me introduce you to this thread.


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## qamar1990

Peaceful Civilian said:


> AZ-1H is very good purchase , expense but worth the price . We shound increase one dozen more in future.


well your not getting em did you even read the original post??


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## denel

baapu said:


> Will you give it for free? Are you an approved supplier for US Subsidised equipment? Thats how the Pakistani Trade goes as you are aware.
> 
> Pakistan has had mutiple and still has multiple manufacturing facilities for these BTW. But you used the right word. "
> turn key"
> On a separate note . You deal with them. Let me introduce you to this thread.


Point being? nothing is for free; but there is no foresight overall. Only one i will say was having some gray cells to get Jf-17 program going -- i wonder how much issues that poor fellow had with vested interested parties around him who were on US payroll.


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## baapu

denel said:


> Point being? nothing is for free; but there is no foresight overall. Only one i will say was having some gray cells to get Jf-17 program going -- i wonder how much issues that poor fellow had with vested interested parties around him who were on US payroll.



JF17 has its own history. it evolved out of a program to refurbish a ton of Chinese MIGs Pakistan had. But the Pilots had also experience with F16s. So no matter how much you upgrade and refurbish them the pilots knew they would never be at par with n anything remotely modern. hence 1st iteration was to use bare bones from the old migs a couple of protos were made and widely advertised but eventually a new design was provided by china of a new aircraft with input from Pakistan which is what we see today.
As for the poor fells, really I don't think it was a bad deal.. free money for the people and for the country. who can resisst.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/jf-17-fighter-chinas-weird-mig-21-and-f-16-hybrid-24782


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## Signalian

maximuswarrior said:


> I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.


1. French engine.
2. Long evaluation process again.

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## maximuswarrior

Signalian said:


> 1. French engine.
> 2. Long evaluation process again.



Agreed. It has some risk to it. Chinese and Russian options are the best.


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## baapu

maximuswarrior said:


> Agreed. It has some risk to it. Chinese and Russian options are the best.



Come , the ones that are real options are China ( because it will be on credit terms ) or America ( because they will be free But dependent on how the relations are at the time of delivery ). Nothing else is a option.

If relations with America are really bad, Pakistan cannot even pay and get weapons from anywhere but China and Russia because everyone has to get approval from America.



maximuswarrior said:


> I think the Rooivalk option is still very credible today. It is much more reliable for a country like Pakistan.





denel said:


> .. rooivalk.... Rooi-> Red; Valk -> Falcon. Rooivlack - means something vulgar.




What is the radar / avionics in it? you don't require "export certificates" from US to export those helicopters?


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## denel

Signalian said:


> 1. French engine.
> 2. Long evaluation process again.


No big deal on that engine; it was produced here without licence. It also powers our Oryx helos.


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## CHI RULES

maximuswarrior said:


> What you fail to mention is that for a country like Pakistan American hardware is always sanction prone. The Americans change their mind every other day. It all depends on their mood.
> 
> Pakistan cannot rely on such a supplier. Even if the supplier has the best hardware available. What good is superior hardware without logistics, spares etc.?
> 
> Pakistan must at all cost diversify and look at Chinese and Russian options. Since Pakistan has paid for the AH1Z order it will accept the delivery at any stage. That doesn't mean we should rely on an unreliable supplier like the US. Even if the Russian/Chinese helicopters are inferior or lack on certain levels they are worth it. *A better deal for Pakistan would be to setup some sort of JV with China or Russia and produce the helicopters domestically.*



Dear member some sort of JV involves though at basic level in case of Turkish helicopters and Pak do not have sufficient facilities/infrastructure to start manufacturing every hardware within country. The resources already booked/allocated to manufacture JF17 and in long run next gen fighter. It's easy to say but difficult to implement in country like Pakistan where absolutely no or only basic level infrastructure is available we do not have giants like Tata group or others in case of India.

Pakistan has two options one is to field large number of attack helicopters with inferior capabilities or to keep a small fleet with capable helicopters. The Pak path for limited inductions but quality stuff is more viable. Moreover Pak has survived sanctions in the past and they were able to keep their F16s operational. The only time PAF face difficulty was during/after Kargil war and it was due to purely strategic issues as sufficient spares were not stored by PAF as they were not informed by PA about their role or challenges expected during operation. Now PAF management has learned their lesson and are more prepared for such situations.

In same way Pak has means and resources to keep the AH1Z cobras operational even some strict sanctions are imposed in near future if AH1Z is delivered.

The classic examples of self reliance to keep stuff operational include Iran keeping their F14s, F4s and F5s along with old super cobras operational for almost four decades and now they are producing their clones, meanwhile Pak has kept their Mirage fleet operational.
Further in order to counter such situations Pakistan should rely on two to three types of Jats and attack helicopters.

Believe me it is also majority opinion that if Pakistan starts to launch superior JF17 Block-III then certainly they may get upgrade option for F16s from USA also. The time is to play your cards in better way in international arena rather than denying quality stuff.



denel said:


> .. rooivalk.... Rooi-> Red; Valk -> Falcon. Rooivlack - means something vulgar.


Thanks for correction, further considering your experience and know how you should start a detailed discussion about South African hardware and it's capabilities. The information about South African attack helicopter( I shall rather avoid to spell it), Marlin BVR, Umokhonto ER etc is available at limited scale. Further reasons so far on Pak side for not considering much stuff from South Africa.


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## Zhukov

Knight Rider said:


> Bheek hum Allah say mangtay hai maty say nahi.
> 
> Slave minded CIA Zombie is no different than a Patwari who supports Noonis. American brainwashed lackey should instead go and live in America rather than Europe, so he can easily worship them there.
> 
> China and Russia already favoring their own currencies over the dollar and are making efforts to ditch the dollar. So heres a link for the false flag to read and understand.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/business/423930-russia-china-dollar-trade/
> 
> Here more for the False flag to read that China is offering Pakistan to trade in Yuan to help decrease trade deficit.
> 
> https://profit.pakistantoday.com.pk...to-trade-in-yuan-help-decrease-trade-deficit/


And you quoted me in this post for some reason? How am i linked here?


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## Knight Rider

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> And you quoted me in this post for some reason? How am i linked here?


No !!!! i quoted you for the link which i have given to read and understand.


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## Super Falcon

Pakistan military has to understand specially idiot airforce that americans weapons are not reliable usa itself not reluable so buy russian helicopter

Pakistani military has tu make a mind that even us come to offer you F 22 0dont take it


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## Zhukov

Knight Rider said:


> No !!!! i quoted you for the link which i have given to read and understand.


Sir if it is even remotely possible that china Sign with us a Yuan Trade Deal. Where will we get Yuan to pay for Chinese Exports and China Exports almost 10 times more then it imports from Pakistan. A Chinese Credit line in Yuan Perhaps? And Where will we find the pay for that Credit Line? Any one else of our Export Partners trade in Yuan? I don't think so. Net impact will be on Dollars reserves only. Unless China Sign with us Special Trade deals to Import from out markets. That is what i have been saying all along. Don't jump up and down for Chinese investment. Ask for Trade Agreements ask Chinese to Buy from our Industry or At least Promote Re-Export Industries to Pakistan Instead of Investing in projects that will generate revenues in domestic markets only. Transfer your Production base to Pakistan. 
Or Else we will end up in even worse situation.
Russians Chinese Deals i cannot comment on. Don't know what is Inter-Nation Trade figures are for both countries. If it is even for both, May be this can work out for them. But not for net Importers like we are to china

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## PAR 5

I had indicated this a few months back on this forum that the Vipers ain't coming not for the want of sanctions but for the lack of self financed funds at GHQ. These Vipers can be shipped tomorrow provided GHQ coughs up the funds required. If not than they will be sold elsewhere. This case is not about sanctions because the US has none at this stage on Pakistan. Its all about 'Show me the Money!' which we really don't have at this time to show.

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## maximuswarrior

CHI RULES said:


> Dear member some sort of JV involves though at basic level in case of Turkish helicopters and Pak do not have sufficient facilities/infrastructure to start manufacturing every hardware within country. The resources already booked/allocated to manufacture JF17 and in long run next gen fighter. It's easy to say but difficult to implement in country like Pakistan where absolutely no or only basic level infrastructure is available we do not have giants like Tata group or others in case of India.
> 
> Pakistan has two options one is to field large number of attack helicopters with inferior capabilities or to keep a small fleet with capable helicopters. The Pak path for limited inductions but quality stuff is more viable. Moreover Pak has survived sanctions in the past and they were able to keep their F16s operational. The only time PAF face difficulty was during/after Kargil war and it was due to purely strategic issues as sufficient spares were not stored by PAF as they were not informed by PA about their role or challenges expected during operation. Now PAF management has learned their lesson and are more prepared for such situations.
> 
> In same way Pak has means and resources to keep the AH1Z cobras operational even some strict sanctions are imposed in near future if AH1Z is delivered.
> 
> The classic examples of self reliance to keep stuff operational include Iran keeping their F14s, F4s and F5s along with old super cobras operational for almost four decades and now they are producing their clones, meanwhile Pak has kept their Mirage fleet operational.
> Further in order to counter such situations Pakistan should rely on two to three types of Jats and attack helicopters.
> 
> Believe me it is also majority opinion that if Pakistan starts to launch superior JF17 Block-III then certainly they may get upgrade option for F16s from USA also. The time is to play your cards in better way in international arena rather than denying quality stuff.
> 
> 
> Thanks for correction, further considering your experience and know how you should start a detailed discussion about South African hardware and it's capabilities. The information about South African attack helicopter( I shall rather avoid to spell it), Marlin BVR, Umokhonto ER etc is available at limited scale. Further reasons so far on Pak side for not considering much stuff from South Africa.



That sounds all good, but the US helicopters aren't coming any time soon. That is an indication how sanction prone US hardware is.

Pak is already looking around for alternatives which is a wise thing to do.


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## Arsalan

baapu said:


> They have orders from Marines and Navy but those deliveries are not due until mid next year. So most likely the infrastructure required isnt in place.


Should these be kept at some warehouse/storage before delivery rather than sending these out to boneyard?



Oscar said:


> The Mi-28 is ill suited for the very agile and fast moving battlefield we are expecting- sadly, not much is there to show for it but now I would hope someone from the right ladders in SA steps in to offer the Roolivak as an alternative @denel .
> As far as I can tell thought development funding has ceased and Pakistan is not rich enough to fund anything.
> A better option is the KA-52 but those cost more than the Mi-28 even though they are smaller in size.
> 
> 
> Changes specific to Pakistan have been incorporated which other customers may not accept without refit.


Again, why not keep them safe, refit them and resell? rather than sending brand new helicopters to boneyard?

Have we got any confirmation that this news is in fact true?


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## baapu

Arsalan said:


> Should these be kept at some warehouse/storage before delivery rather than sending these out to boneyard?
> 
> 
> Again, why not keep them safe, refit them and resell? rather than sending brand new helicopters to boneyard?
> 
> Have we got any confirmation that this news is in fact true?



boneyard *is* storage. What possible difference can it be if its stored in a warehouse? do you ( or anyone ) believe that the paint will fade? or someone will steal parts from it if its stored outside?


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## Signalian

denel said:


> No big deal on that engine; it was produced here without licence. It also powers our Oryx helos.


what about the Mmw radar


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## Arsalan

baapu said:


> boneyard *is* storage. What possible difference can it be if its stored in a warehouse? do you ( or anyone ) believe that the paint will fade? or someone will steal parts from it if its stored outside?


NO, i am not talking about theft but boneyard is NOT storage for brand new machines. Its a graveyard, old decommissioned planes are put there for storage. These helicopters we are talking about are brand new ones


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## baapu

Arsalan said:


> NO, i am not talking about theft but boneyard is NOT storage for brand new machines. Its a graveyard, old decommissioned planes are put there for storage. These helicopters we are talking about are brand new ones



OK. Please tell me why not store them out in the open? reason?

Construction of warehouse costs money. So imagine you have to ask someone to obtain budget for that construction. Please provide what reasons you would provide to justify that spending?


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## jamal18

khansaheeb said:


> We are getting used to it, first F16s now AH-1Zs



Yes. Let's buy some more because they are our trusted friends.


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## Arsalan

baapu said:


> OK. Please tell me why not store them out in the open? reason?
> 
> Construction of warehouse costs money. So image you have to ask someone to obtain budget for that construction. Please provide what reasons you would provide to justify that spending?


Because you are not talking about storing hundreds of them, as is the case with a boneyard. For 15-18 new machines the best way would be to refit them, modify them if required and deliver to a new customer. If at all, store them for a few months in a warehouse so that these can be delivered when required. Boneyard is for OLD DECOMMISSIONED aircraft, hundreds of them that you do not bother with to store inside.


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## baapu

khansaheeb said:


> We are getting used to it, first F16s now AH-1Zs



the F16s deal was the best thing that ever happened to Pakistan Air force. Ask anyone in the Airforce to imagine where would Pakistan's airforce be without the F16s.



Arsalan said:


> Because you are not talking about storing hundreds of them, as is the case with a boneyard. For 15-18 new machines the best way would be to refit them, modify them if required and deliver to a new customer. If at all, store them for a few months in a warehouse so that these can be delivered when required. Boneyard is for OLD DECOMMISSIONED aircraft, hundreds of them that you do not bother with to store inside.



OK, again. you have to store lets say 15 helicopters. you need money to construct storage . what reasons would you provide to obtain that money. 
(retrofit or modifying them is is not storage that's is done is specialized facilities )


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## Arsalan

baapu said:


> the F16s deal was the best thing that ever happened to Pakistan Air force. Ask anyone in the Airforce to imagine where would Pakistan's airforce be without the F16s.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, again. you have to store lets say 15 helicopters. you need money to construct storage . what reasons would you provide to obtain that money.
> (retrofit or modifying them is is not storage that's is done is specialized facilities )


Bro spending some money to store 15 machines in a warehouse is NOTHING compared to what you will lose throwing them in graveyard MEANT for old decommissioned useless planes.


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## baapu

Arsalan said:


> Bro spending some money to store 15 machines in a warehouse is NOTHING compared to what you will lose throwing them in graveyard MEANT for old decommissioned useless planes.



.. OK. cool.. what is the *technical * reason for you to spend that 10 million dollars. Why cant they be stored out in a farmers field? or just out in the desert?


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## umair86

Good we don't need stuff with strings attached that cannot be used on our Western borders.


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## denel

Signalian said:


> what about the Mmw radar


what about Mmw?


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## mikaal

Forget where and how the helicopters are being stored tell me which of the generals are being jailed or hanged for taking the step to order these stupid helicopters in the 1 st place ...when from last nearly 30 years plus you know Usa is an unreliable supplier ....now all the Boot lickers gona stop talking because they haven’t got the ans for this big mistake

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## Signalian

denel said:


> what about Mmw?


Does AH-2 has a Mmw Radar ?
I read that Mokopa uses Mmw guidance but couldnt find Mmw radar on AH-2


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## MastanKhan

mikaal said:


> Forget where and how the helicopters are being stored tell me which of the generals are being jailed or hanged for taking the step to order these stupid helicopters in the 1 st place ...when from last nearly 30 years plus you know Usa is an unreliable supplier ....now all the Boot lickers gona stop talking because they haven’t got the ans for this big mistake



Hi,

And pakistan's navy chief says these are not life and death situations---. 

He should have been sacked from his job with a dishonorable discharge---.

How dare these geerals have the audacity to utter these words---.

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## Chimgathar

Guys what about the money, finances paid by Pakistan Govt. for this deal. Would that money be returned if the deal fails?


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## My-Analogous

It is time Pakistan must remove US from weapon suppliers list.

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## Arsalan

baapu said:


> .. OK. cool.. what is the *technical * reason for you to spend that 10 million dollars. Why cant they be stored out in a farmers field? or just out in the desert?


For the same reason you try to park YOUR car in garage rather than in an open field!! 
??


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## Salza

PAR 5 said:


> I had indicated this a few months back on this forum that the Vipers ain't coming not for the want of sanctions but for the lack of self financed funds at GHQ. These Vipers can be shipped tomorrow provided GHQ coughs up the funds required. If not than they will be sold elsewhere. This case is not about sanctions because the US has none at this stage on Pakistan. Its all about 'Show me the Money!' which we really don't have at this time to show.



Yeah I noticed your posts back than. But now, as per some news (Washington times), US is considering restoring militarily funds to Pakistan , if that will be the case than, we can get these helis along with the 1000 hell missiles. No ? P.S militarily funds here doesn't mean free aid, it is an equivalent aid in response to have a supply line through Pakistan into Afghanistan for US and NATO.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> And pakistan's navy chief says these are not life and death situations---.
> 
> He should have been sacked from his job with a dishonorable discharge---.
> 
> How dare these geerals have the audacity to utter these words---.



Just 12/15 Vipers were never meant to solve our attack helicopter equation infact we always were looking for T-129 or Z-10s to form the majority of our fleet. These American AH-1Z were always there as a luxury and to fine tune our possible war operations rather than becoming a back bone of our attack helicopter fleet. So what our generals did were right especially if we can get these hi-tech copters on discounted price while T-129s /Z10s were be bought in bulk.


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## 帅的一匹

Z-10ME with modified engine and new cannon in test.






our engineers had.done many.jobs after it came back from Pakistan to improve it.

the power of the engine increase, which means more airflow intake, they need a.new fairing.

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## 帅的一匹

the engine max power has increased from 945KW to 1200KW, quite close to the embargoed pT6c -67c for Z 10 prototype.

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## Readerdefence

wanglaokan said:


> the engine max power has increased from 945KW to 1200KW, quite close to the embargoed pT6c -67c for Z 10 prototype.


Hi wanglaokan so 1200 kw is enough power or PLA is still after more power as we can see 
Still z10 is not carrying its full load of 16 atgm 
What will or should be the realistic KW for this kind of helicopter 
Thank you


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## MIRauf

Nothing "$" was paid directly out of Pak's coffers unlike the F-16s.

Sure, Pak can remove US from suppliers group but doesn't have too as US is stopping sales anyway. Best solution is to not disturb the hornets nest, that way Pak can still pickup US made weapons from third parties.


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## iby32

Peaceful Civilian said:


> AZ-1H is very good purchase , expense but worth the price . We shound increase one dozen more in future.


Ah1-z gone to grave yard and you asking to purchase more


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## Signalian

PAR 5 said:


> I had indicated this a few months back on this forum that the Vipers ain't coming not for the want of sanctions but for the lack of self financed funds at GHQ. These Vipers can be shipped tomorrow provided GHQ coughs up the funds required. If not than they will be sold elsewhere. This case is not about sanctions because the US has none at this stage on Pakistan. Its all about 'Show me the Money!' which we really don't have at this time to show.



Why should Pakistan pay for something which is part of FMS package?

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## 帅的一匹

Readerdefence said:


> Hi wanglaokan so 1200 kw is enough power or PLA is still after more power as we can see
> Still z10 is not carrying its full load of 16 atgm
> What will or should be the realistic KW for this kind of helicopter
> Thank you


maybe new engine for 1500Kw after they absorb the technology of French Ardiden engine.

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## RescueRanger

Pakistan should rid herself of this addition to American weaponry.


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## 帅的一匹

RescueRanger said:


> Pakistan should rid herself of this addition to American weaponry.


its no wrong to buy weapons from USA, just make sure they deiliver.


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## RescueRanger

wanglaokan said:


> its no wrong to buy weapons from USA, just make sure they deiliver.


Which hasn't happened since I was a child. History is a good teacher!

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## 帅的一匹

make sure Pakistan will not be taken for granted.

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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> make sure Pakistan will not be taken for granted.



I am yet to see the Z-10 equipped with a MMW radar whereas the Z-19 has one. Any reasons for that?

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## 帅的一匹

Dazzler said:


> I am yet to see the Z-10 equipped with a MMW radar whereas the Z-19 has one. Any reasons for that?


maybe the armour of Z 10 is much more heavier than those of Z 19, so Z 10 need more powerful engine to carry MMW.

i think Z 10 will carry MMW when it has 1500KW engine.

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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> i think Z 10 will carry MMW when it has 1500KW engine.


Maybe not.


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## Malik Alashter

baapu said:


> buy Z10s from China for $20 million each.
> Or Buy them from Turkey ?


So you paid 50 millions for the T129 instead of 20 millions for the Z-10


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## Fawadqasim1

LKJ86 said:


> I think Pakistan has chosen T-129.


T129 has American engines and parts



LKJ86 said:


> T-129 has already got the deal.


They won't be delivered


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## 帅的一匹

Full edition of Z10 in PLA service, with more armour for the flank side of the cockpit and the engine compartment; MAWS is added as well. Credit to the more powerful engine. 











Z10 will keep improving and ready to join PA at any time.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I would prefer we get 1 Billion Dollar back !!! and Invest that

30% into T-129 (Refill Order :18) [Secondary platform] original order was for 30 choppers
50% into Z-10 (36 ) [Replacement for Cobras]
20% into Z-19 (12) [Technology Tester]

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## 帅的一匹

One bird at hand is better than two birds at forest.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I would prefer we get 1 Billion Dollar back !!! and Invest that
> 
> 30% into T-129
> 50% into Z-10
> 20% into Z-19


For large scale of anti armour operations l, I think there is no better choice than Z10.

Few AH1Z won't help, PA need gunship in numbers.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wanglaokan said:


> Full edition of Z10 in PLA service, with more armour for the flank side of the cockpit and the engine compartment; MAWS is added as well. Credit to the more powerful engine.
> View attachment 502274
> 
> Z10 will keep improving and ready to join PA at any time.


That's a nice angle. Can't wait to hear more about the Z-10ME.


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## jhungary

Arsalan said:


> Strange. I think there were orders from other services for these same type of helicopters. Why send them to boneyard when there are potential customers lined up? These should have been sold to them directly. This looks like fake new.



This is fake news...…..

Boneyard in Davis-Monthan AFB (or 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group) Only store aircraft that were operated (past tense) by the USAF for continue preservation and salvaging operation.

AH-1Z is a new helicopter, it would neither need continue preservation and salvaging done to it, which mean it have no point at all putting them with the 309. 

If it was a commercial boneyard the article is on about, then that would mean those AH-1Z is scrapped as per ITAR act, which mean they are to be "recycled", which literally mean crushing them and remake the material into something else after taken out all the sensitive technology. Which again, being totally brand new aircraft, it's not likely it is going to be this way.

If and when US refuse delivery of AH-1Z, two things WILL happens, first, you are going to hear from it from the Pakistani and/or US government. Second, they will not be put in boneyard but rather induct them into US Marine, or sell them to third country. 

So for me, this seems fake.

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## 帅的一匹

Commander in chief of the PLA, Mr. Xi Jing Ping visited PLA 79th army group and peronally experienced the new helmet of Z10.(using the helmet to direct the cannon )

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

please notice the image intensifier tube had been removed.


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## Arsalan

jhungary said:


> This is fake news...…..
> 
> Boneyard in Davis-Monthan AFB (or 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group) Only store aircraft that were operated (past tense) by the USAF for continue preservation and salvaging operation.
> 
> AH-1Z is a new helicopter, it would neither need continue preservation and salvaging done to it, which mean it have no point at all putting them with the 309.
> 
> If it was a commercial boneyard the article is on about, then that would mean those AH-1Z is scrapped as per ITAR act, which mean they are to be "recycled", which literally mean crushing them and remake the material into something else after taken out all the sensitive technology. Which again, being totally brand new aircraft, it's not likely it is going to be this way.
> 
> If and when US refuse delivery of AH-1Z, two things WILL happens, first, you are going to hear from it from the Pakistani and/or US government. Second, they will not be put in boneyard but rather induct them into US Marine, or sell them to third country.
> 
> So for me, this seems fake.


Exactly the reasons i stated. Makes no sense so most probably a fake news.

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## Imran Khan

Fawadqasim1 said:


> T129 has American engines and parts
> 
> 
> They won't be delivered


still beter then direct from usa


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## Dazzler

As per a source, the Z-10ME is the direct result of improvements suggested to the platform by PA. A clear indication that the Z-10 will be inducted in PA but how many, thats anyone's guess. 

The above pics of PLA's version of Z-10 improved means that he ME was indeed the result of PA's request.

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## 帅的一匹

Dazzler said:


> As per a source, the Z-10ME is the direct result of improvements suggested to the platform by PA. A clear indication that the Z-10 will be inducted in PA but how many, thats anyone's guess.
> 
> The above pics of PLA's version of Z-10 improved means that he ME was indeed the result of PA's request.


brother, the original deaign of Z 10 use PTC -67c engine. due to the embargo imposed by USA, we have to cut off armour and optical sensors/MAWS from the original design. now domestic engine get better, we can put those missing parts back. and those trial in Pakistan further enlighten us in some of the shortcomings for improvement. i can say its gonna be better in the.future.

i can clearly tell the additional armour plate for cockpit and engine compartment is strongly advised by PA.

and i hope they can further escalate the.engine. power to 1500KW.

30 ATAK cant meet the demand of PA, Z 10 can play a big role in PA.

http://tv.cctv.com/v/v2/VIDENubGXvghkc3eT2gyqBc3180929.html

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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> and i hope they can further escalate the.engine. power to 1500KW.


WZ-10 engine will be for the new heavy attack helicopter that will come out soon.


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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> WZ-10 engine will be for the new heavy attack helicopter that will come out soon.


is it turbo shaft type '9H' or type'10'.

one day it carrys 16 ATGM and MMR, then it will turn to a heavy armed helicopter.


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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> is it turbo shaft type '9H' or type'10'.
> 
> one day it carrys 16 ATGM and MMR, then it will turn to a heavy armed helicopter.


A new heavy attack helicopter like AH-64 (about 10t) will take 16 ATGM and MMR with WZ-10 engine (涡轴10发动机).
And Z-10 is just about 6t.

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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> A new heavy attack helicopter like AH-64 (about 10t) will take 16 ATGM and MMR with WZ-10 engine.
> And Z-10 is just about 6t.[/QUOT]great news


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## LKJ86

Z-10 is the first-class weapon in PLA, similar to ZTZ-99A, Type 055 DDG, and J-20 in PLAA, PLAN, and PLAAF. While Z-10 is allowed to be exported now, but others not. It means a new heavy helicopter is ready. @wanglaokan

Just like J-10/FC-20, Type 054A FFG.


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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> Z-10 is the first-class weapon in PLA, similar to ZTZ-99A, Type 055 DDG, and J-20 in PLAA, PLAN, and PLAAF. While Z-10 is allowed to be exported now, but others not. It means a new heavy helicopter is ready. @wanglaokan


is it type A 903 heavy class armed helicopter project that you try to hint ?


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## Mace

wanglaokan said:


> One bird at hand is better than two birds at forest.
> 
> 
> For large scale of anti armour operations l, I think there is no better choice than Z10.
> 
> Few AH1Z won't help, PA need gunship in numbers.



AH1Z with its Hellfire missiles and other munitions brings some semblance of parity with India's Apaches. Z10 does not.


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## 帅的一匹

Mace said:


> AH1Z with its Hellfire missiles and other munitions brings some semblance of parity with India's Apaches. Z10 does not.


few apache wont help

its.too expensive, even India cant afford it in.numbers

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## LKJ86

Mace said:


> AH1Z with its Hellfire missiles and other munitions brings some semblance of parity with India's Apaches. Z10 does not.


Z-10 ~ 6 tons
AH-1Z ~ 8 tons
AH-64 ~ 10 tons


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## jhungary

wanglaokan said:


> One bird at hand is better than two birds at forest.
> 
> 
> For large scale of anti armour operations l, I think there is no better choice than Z10.
> 
> Few AH1Z won't help, PA need gunship in numbers.



Actually, you don't kill all the armoured using Attack Chopper in a major Armoured Operation. Because there are ALWAYS more armoured vehicle than Attack chopper.

With PA armour doctrine, AH-1Z is more suitable than Z-10 because Z-10 lack of communication/scout module that can identified battlefield threat. PA doctrine called for a combine operation which lay a 3 fold attack toward enemy armour, first by tactical strike into enemy armour column, taken down enemy C&C module, then a quick engagement between PA armour and Enemy Armour, and finally a mop up from CAS. 

To do that, PA attack chopper needed to have independent scouting and communication capability, to select which target and priority them. Z-10 is a weapon ship, more in a way what Mi-24 is to Russian Army. Which is ironically, how Indian (Pakistan assumed enemy) fights. Which mean Z-10 is more suitable to be used by Indian Army than Pakistan Army

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## 帅的一匹

jhungary said:


> Actually, you don't kill all the armoured using Attack Chopper in a major Armoured Operation. Because there are ALWAYS more armoured vehicle than Attack chopper.
> 
> With PA armour doctrine, AH-1Z is more suitable than Z-10 because Z-10 lack of communication/scout module that can identified battlefield threat. PA doctrine called for a combine operation which lay a 3 fold attack toward enemy armour, first by tactical strike into enemy armour column, taken down enemy C&C module, then a quick engagement between PA armour and Enemy Armour, and finally a mop up from CAS.
> 
> To do that, PA attack chopper needed to have independent scouting and communication capability, to select which target and priority them. Z-10 is a weapon ship, more in a way what Mi-24 is to Russian Army. Which is ironically, how Indian (Pakistan assumed enemy) fights. Which mean Z-10 is more suitable to be used by Indian Army than Pakistan Army


how do you know that Z 10 doesnt have scouting and communication ability?

its really weird that you try to compare Z 10 with Mi 24.

first you need to get air dominance that you can mobolize your helicopeters, especially in flat area, take out those anti air fire power before helicopters get in battle field.
its all about numbers in war, unless the gap is generations.

you need both quality and quantity to win a modern war.

and FYI, modern armed heli can carry SRAAM that can take out each other.

you cant get away with a win by counting only on quality, still remember the Tiger VS T34 case? German was totally overwhelmed in numbers.

as ive said few Apache and AH1z cant do jack shit.


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## GriffinsRule

Instead of buying Z-10s, Pakistan should order more T-129 as need arises for a simpler and affordable logistical footprint. And if we are going to be manufacturing any components of T-129 in-house as well, I see no reason at all to go for the Chinese helicopter.


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## 帅的一匹

GriffinsRule said:


> Instead of buying Z-10s, Pakistan should order more T-129 as need arises for a simpler and affordable logistical footprint. And if we are going to be manufacturing any components of T-129 in-house as well, I see no reason at all to go for the Chinese helicopter.


Pakistan can get a production liscense for T129 from Turkey.


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## Signalian

wanglaokan said:


> One bird at hand is better than two birds at forest.
> 
> 
> For large scale of anti armour operations l, I think there is no better choice than Z10.
> 
> Few AH1Z won't help, PA need gunship in numbers.


AH-1Z reaches the altitude in NW-Pakistan.


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## 帅的一匹

Signalian said:


> AH-1Z reaches the altitude in NW-Pakistan.


thats good for anti terrorists operation.


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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> thats good for anti terrorists operation.



The fact remains that despite odds and misgivings, the AH-1Z is still the most advanced, well equipped and capable option available. The AH-s/f have served the army well during COIN OPS but it is time to lay them to rest as they have served the purpose. Amazingly, the cobras were meant to be used as anti armor gunships. The versatility of that platform is next to nothing.

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## khanmubashir

Salza said:


> and than some people were claiming that first 4 were already in Pakistan. Along with these choppers, US was to give us 1000 hellfire missiles. Huge miss.
> 
> 
> 
> We ain't getting that too because of Made in US engine. Ehhh!
> 
> 
> 
> 'Angoor khathey hain' - Pakistan situation at the moment.


USA has no problem selling us weapons for money they just stopped the grant which would have been used to pay for cobra
Turkey alredal extended credit line for t@29 to Pak they aouwo buy the engine from USA on own expenses and give the helicopter on credit

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## 帅的一匹

Dazzler said:


> The fact remains that despite odds and misgivings, the AH-1Z is still the most advanced, well equipped and capable option available. The AH-s/f have served the army well during COIN OPS but it is time to lay them to rest as they have served the purpose. Amazingly, the cobras were meant to be used as anti armor gunships. The versatility of that platform is next to nothing.


so T129 is the choice you have to take


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## Dazzler

wanglaokan said:


> so T129 is the choice you have to take



The high/low combination as usual, should compromise of:

Zulus will form the top tier

ATAKs/ Z-10s will be workhorse

it turns out that the infrastructure is not ready yet, hence the delay is on us, not the Americans!


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## Dazzler

Soon to be delivered...

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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> Soon to be delivered...
> 
> View attachment 502860


sapna hai ye


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## Dazzler

Imran Khan said:


> sapna hai ye



Reason why the delivery got delayed.. The blame is on us.

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## Trango Towers

Dazzler said:


> Reason why the delivery got delayed.. The blame is on us.
> 
> View attachment 502861


So what you are saying is that they are coming?


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## Dazzler

snow lake said:


> So what you are saying is that they are coming?



Yes, they are coming as soon as the infrastructure is in place.


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## Trango Towers

Dazzler said:


> Yes, they are coming as soon as the infrastructure is in place.


Why cant they just be located elsewhere. Do u have any insider info as to why infras... is delayed?

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## Dazzler

snow lake said:


> Why cant they just be located elsewhere. Do u have any i sider info as to why infras... is dekayed?



Yes, someone at Multan told me. It is the latest pic as preparations are underway to deliver them to PAA.

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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> Yes, someone at Multan told me. It is the latest pic as preparations are underway to deliver them to PAA.


us multani ko.meri chummi de dena bhai

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## Tps43

Dazzler said:


> Reason why the delivery got delayed.. The blame is on us.
> 
> View attachment 502861


@Mentee I told u they are coming....

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## Dazzler

tps77 said:


> @Mentee I told u they are coming....



SIPRI also mentions that in 2017's database. 

(1000) AGM-114K HELLFIRE Anti-tank missile - 2015 

9 AH-1Z Viper Combat helicopter 2015 - $170 m deal; *delivery planned from 2018*

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## Amigator

Yaar ya to heli de do ya hamen cash wapis de do. Hum khudi cheeni machine kharid len ge 

Kahen is main bhi F-16 k switch wali kahani na a jae.

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## TOPGUN

Also knew they were going to come , its a much needed machine most of you don't seem to get that.


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## Windjammer

*Brand new AH-1Z Viper on its way to Pakistan. Here sits 28 million dollars of murder snek.*











__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faviation%252Fcomments%252F9dj13u%252F

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## Maxpane

Thank God they are coming home


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## Jinn Baba

Will believe it when I see pics of them having landed in Pakistan.

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## khanasifm

Jinn Baba said:


> Will believe it when I see pics of them having landed in Pakistan.



The video won’t run and not sure the picture tell you anything title has a ? So not sure if it’s the news or a question being asked ?

The color scheme is not the same as previously depicted by Oem with clear paa no 786-xx and title on the heli


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## khanasifm



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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> The video won’t run and not sure the picture tell you anything title has a ? So not sure if it’s the news or a question being asked ?
> 
> The color scheme is not the same as previously depicted by Oem with clear paa no 786-xx and title on the heli


The photographer himself posted the picture....besides the earlier pictures were taken under artificial light.


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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> The color scheme is not the same as previously depicted by Oem with clear paa no 786-xx and title on the heli





khanasifm said:


> View attachment 502969

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## Safriz

The serial number of Originally posted pic was 786-061.
This latest pic has serial number 786-065..
So i take that 5 have been manufactured for Pakistan.


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## Trango Towers

TOPGUN said:


> Also knew they were going to come , its a much needed machine most of you don't seem to get that.


We all get it. But we also get that they have you and us by the balls. I want my balls free. I am sure you understand that. We simply dont trust america. Period


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## LeGenD

Why not send SMQ to US to get these released?


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## Imran Khan

tell me.when they land multan


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## MultaniGuy

My goodness we haven't learned yet.

Do joint ventures with China and make your alternative.

Never depend on USA for anything.

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## monitor

Earlier it was reported Pakistani AH-1Z sends to boneyard signaling either canceling the deal or delay the delivery. So only believable when landed Pakistani soil.


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## Windjammer

*One of the comments by the source:

''What really shocked me was the size and complexity of it. It's a monster helicopter and produces a **** ton of rotor wash. The thing is covered in sensor eyes and the cockpit is like something out of wing commander. Digital screens and flight controls that have 15 buttons''.*

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## Peaceful Civilian

We will receive it within month, ceremony preparation already in process, We should buy atleast 17 more with same configuration of AH 1Z to meet our requirement and this time we should go with atleast 200 sidewinders .

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## Knight Rider

Pakistan should order 19 more to replace all its Cobras with Zulus. And retire the Cobra fleet.

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## SQ8

snow lake said:


> We all get it. But we also get that they have you and us by the balls. I want my balls free. I am sure you understand that. We simply dont trust america. Period


There is a reverse hand hold with the equipment as well. The US military industrial complex wants to remain involved in Pakistan because they see places where they can secure FMS. 
India is giving them an alternative market but it is still contested- if our economy goes bust then all sales will be blocked, tomorrow if the economy does finally rebound all tight underwear will become commando.

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## CHI RULES

Peaceful Civilian said:


> We will receive it within month, ceremony preparation already in process, We should buy atleast 17 more with same configuration of AH 1Z to meet our requirement and this time we should go with atleast 200 sidewinders .


Nice I haven't seen yet any pic of Pak attack helo with AAMs, they shall be must for future Heli VS Heli encounters, further Pak near future T129s are also capable to fire Hellfire.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *One of the comments by the source:
> 
> ''What really shocked me was the size and complexity of it. It's a monster helicopter and produces a **** ton of rotor wash. The thing is covered in sensor eyes and the cockpit is like something out of wing commander. Digital screens and flight controls that have 15 buttons''.*


It will be a steep learning curve for Pakistani helicopter pilots coming off the old Cobra- easily 2 years before they become competent enough for it in combat

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## 313ghazi

I'll believe it when i see them in Pakistan.


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## 313ghazi

Iqbal Ali said:


> My goodness we haven't learned yet.
> 
> Do joint ventures with China and make your alternative.
> 
> Never depend on USA for anything.



The thing with these is, they're often paid for thru "aid" given to us. It's a way the American government pays off the arms manufacturers. It gives "aid" and then ensures that "aid" is spent on arms from the US. This then means American companies get contracts to make stuff, keeping rednecks in work.

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> It will be a steep learning curve for Pakistani helicopter pilots coming off the old Cobra- easily 2 years before they become competent enough for it in combat


Damn, must be much more than a follow up to the Cobra.


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## SQ8

LeGenD said:


> Why not send SMQ to US to get these released?


They aren’t stuck due to sanctions or otherwise. Finance and infrastructure were the reasons.

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## Peaceful Civilian

CHI RULES said:


> Nice I haven't seen yet any pic of Pak attack helo with AAMs, they shall be must for future Heli VS Heli encounters, further Pak near future T129s are also capable to fire Hellfire.


Thats why I am saying this, Now this is right time to go with sidewinders .Our new government is soft on U.S.A, and we asked them to review U.S.A policies, U.S.A also want to work with new government and trust deficit is decreasing, our new government will not involve in any blame game and we want to move forward. Our foreign minister is capable to handle things. Also AZ 1Z is best attack helicopter beats all Russian attack helicopters w.r.t quality & performance. One of the reason I prefers AH 1Z over Russian KA 52 & others.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Damn, must be much more than a follow up to the Cobra.


It’s like a 1960 honda vs today’s honda.

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## Zibago

Oscar said:


> It will be a steep learning curve for Pakistani helicopter pilots coming off the old Cobra- easily 2 years before they become competent enough for it in combat


We wont get many the future of Pak Mil aviation is either the Z10 or the atak would be interesting to see where the atak deal goes now that US itself released our helis


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## SQ8

Zibago said:


> We wont get many the future of Pak Mil aviation is either the Z10 or the atak would be interesting to see where the atak deal goes now that US itself released our helis


There is no long term hold on Turkey- at maximum there will be a year or two delay but the ATAK is coming; contrary to popular belief here the PA did its homework regarding US made parts in the ATAK and associated risks before making the decision.

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> It’s like a 1960 honda vs today’s honda.


Amazingly it's same length as the Apache but couple of feet higher, yet it looks much more compact.
Pakistan seems to be the first export customer.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> There is no long term hold on Turkey- at maximum there will be a year or two delay but the ATAK is coming; contrary to popular belief here the PA did its homework regarding US made parts in the ATAK and associated risks before making the decision.


I think the current tiff between the US and Turkey has to do with (1) the US wanting to export more and import less (see the USMCA) and (2) dealing with specific security concerns (i.e. preventing the Russians from building a threat library against the F-35). Withholding the LHTEC engines would derail (1) and do nothing to resolve (2).

If not via Turkey, then Pakistan can buy the LHTEC engines itself (there are no sanctions) and look at building a T129 assembly and test plant at PAC. You're basically looking at a CKD site with qualification test facilities (and PAC raised an office to do just that for the Saab 2000).

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Amazingly it's same length as the Apache but couple of feet higher, yet it looks much more compact.
> Pakistan seems to be the first export customer.


We are the first customer. It is also more agile due to the rotor design and weight. Its sensor suite is superior to the Guardian if the Longbow Radar is excluded because USMC finalized the specs for its suite later than for the Guardian.



Quwa said:


> I think the current tiff between the US and Turkey has to do with (1) the US wanting to export more and import less (see the USMCA) and (2) dealing with specific security concerns (i.e. preventing the Russians from building a threat library against the F-35). Withholding the LHTEC engines would derail (1) and do nothing to resolve (2).
> 
> If not via Turkey, then Pakistan can buy the LHTEC engines itself (there are no sanctions) and look at building a T129 assembly and test plant at PAC. You're basically looking at a CKD site with qualification test facilities (and PAC raised an office to do just that for the Saab 2000).


Nobody will turn down money and the military industrial complex is strong enough to overpower any political changes within the White House.

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## Path-Finder

Quwa said:


> I think the current tiff between the US and Turkey has to do with (1) the US wanting to export more and import less (see the USMCA) and (2) dealing with specific security concerns (i.e. preventing the Russians from building a threat library against the F-35). Withholding the LHTEC engines would derail (1) and do nothing to resolve (2).
> 
> If not via Turkey, then Pakistan can buy the LHTEC engines itself (there are no sanctions) and look at building a T129 assembly and test plant at PAC. You're basically looking at a CKD site with qualification test facilities (and PAC raised an office to do just that for the Saab 2000).



sorry to derail, but 2 quwa accounts are now functioning?


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## YeBeWarned

Oscar said:


> It will be a steep learning curve for Pakistani helicopter pilots coming off the old Cobra- easily 2 years before they become competent enough for it in combat



means these new Chopper wont be pounding Taliban until two years ?


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## PakGuns

Oscar said:


> There is no long term hold on Turkey- at maximum there will be a year or two delay but the ATAK is coming; contrary to popular belief here the PA did its homework regarding US made parts in the ATAK and associated risks before making the decision.


Like they did with f-16s for every purchase order.... ,?? That homework though...


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## I S I

Nahiin seekhne waale hum apni ghaltio se. Anyways, welcome cobra ke par pote in our family.


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> The photographer himself posted the picture....besides the earlier pictures were taken under artificial light.



Grey vs army green one cannot make a mistake or light comment not sure if that’s the case 

S/n are different 061 vs 065 so unless one is grey and other green or changed later on 







Anyway someone posted link as follows but as other said till it lands will not count 


Web view to see the link 


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faviation%252Fcomments%252F9dj13u%252F

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## SQ8

PakGuns said:


> Like they did with f-16s for every purchase order.... ,??


Yup
The benefits with the F-16s outweigh the risks



Starlord said:


> means these new Chopper wont be pounding Taliban until two years ?


They may be, but not everyone will be proficient enough

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## PakGuns

Oscar said:


> Yup
> The benefits with the F-16s outweigh the risks


C'mon yr, after years of spanking?? Seriously  obsolete once a war breaks out with that dehati


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## SQ8

PakGuns said:


> C'mon yr, after years of spanking?? Seriously  obsolete once a war breaks out with that dehati


Both of your assertions are not based on facts.

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## TOPGUN

snow lake said:


> We all get it. But we also get that they have you and us by the balls. I want my balls free. I am sure you understand that. We simply dont trust america. Period[
> 
> 
> snow lake said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all get it. But we also get that they have you and us by the balls. I want my balls free. I am sure you understand that. We simply dont trust america. Period
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well my friend they surely don't have me by the balls they perhaps have Pakistan's balls for now but not for long I think we are finally learning , these machines are needed badly and nothing in this world can match made US quality of weapons period. As per your any others balls you shall have them back soon on quick note just try keeping them in your paints no need for too much fresh air lolz
Click to expand...

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## Quwa

Path-Finder said:


> sorry to derail, but 2 quwa accounts are now functioning?


Yep. There have always been 2 accounts (one for Quwa the brand and other for the writer, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ), this one hasn't been used as much.

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## Maarkhoor

Lols….. @Dazzler 
As per rumors US agreed to release payed assets after KSA's interventions.....but on what cost..?
And what reliable relation KSA have with US right now...…?

Infrastructure was and is no problem but US refuse to transfer of assets...


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## YeBeWarned

Maarkhoor said:


> Lols….. @Dazzler
> As per rumors US agreed to release payed assets after KSA's interventions.....but on what cost..?
> And what reliable relation KSA have with US right now...…?
> 
> Infrastructure was and is no problem but US refuse to transfer of assets...



i doubt KSA has any say in releasing those Choppers .


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## Maarkhoor

Starlord said:


> i doubt KSA has any say in releasing those Choppers .


lols…..


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## YeBeWarned

Maarkhoor said:


> lols…..


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## mingle

Jordan put 17 Ah 1F, 2 C235, 1C 130 for sale a good opportunity for army and PAF to look at plus 17 Hawk trainers but real treasure trove is isreal they stored F16s and 17 C130 s.
C235 r brand new one or two yrs old let's see if we get them.


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## Amigator

mingle said:


> Jordan put 17 Ah 1F, 2 C235, 1C 130 for sale a good opportunity for army and PAF to look at plus 17 Hawk trainers but real treasure trove is isreal they stored F16s and 17 C130 s.
> C235 r brand new one or two yrs old let's see if we get them.


What the Jordanians do? They put on sale war equipments after little use. I think they don't like to do paint job again.


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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> Jordan put 17 Ah 1F, 2 C235, 1C 130 for sale a good opportunity for army and PAF to look at plus 17 Hawk trainers but real treasure trove is isreal they stored F16s and 17 C130 s.
> C235 r brand new one or two yrs old let's see if we get them.



So the f-16 are gone , 16 or so put out for sales in the past ?

Unless the 17 upgraded were originally for sale 

http://www.rjaf.mil.jo/en/tenders.html

C-130 might be of interest I doubt hawk is something paf will pick mostly used item are already part of service


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## YeBeWarned

khanasifm said:


> So the f-16 are gone , 16 or so put out for sales in the past ?
> 
> Unless the 17 upgraded were originally for sale
> 
> http://www.rjaf.mil.jo/en/tenders.html
> 
> C-130 might be of interest I doubt hawk is something paf will pick mostly used item are already part of service



Peace Falcon I , they got 12+4 F-16 block 15 ( 1997-1998 ) .. these 16 units can be a good buy , have them MLU'd from Turkey and you have replace another F-7 sqs

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## Dazzler

For sceptics, the current White House is dictated by military industry as @Oscar pointed it. Remember the incident where trump did the following?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...i-arabiaqatar-signs-loa-for-the-a7790956.html

And that didnt happen a long time ago.

Money talks!

The news that caused panic among many, was misreported on purpose

The original news was:

Two #Pakistani #*AH1Z* have been sighted at 309th *Aerospace Maintenance And Regeneration Group* (#309thAMARG), #DavisMonthan AFB (AZ). Please, for more details follow this link: https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazine/ … Photo: Rodney Bastow

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## Salza

Windjammer said:


> *Brand new AH-1Z Viper on its way to Pakistan. Here sits 28 million dollars of murder snek.*
> 
> View attachment 502951
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faviation%252Fcomments%252F9dj13u%252F



Looks so beautiful.


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## Trango Towers

Dazzler said:


> For sceptics, the current White House is dictated by military industry as @Oscar pointed it. Remember the incident where trump did the following?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...i-arabiaqatar-signs-loa-for-the-a7790956.html
> 
> And that didnt happen a long time ago.
> 
> Money talks!
> 
> The news that caused panic among many, was misreported on purpose
> 
> The original news was:
> 
> Two #Pakistani #*AH1Z* have been sighted at 309th *Aerospace Maintenance And Regeneration Group* (#309thAMARG), #DavisMonthan AFB (AZ). Please, for more details follow this link: https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazine/ … Photo: Rodney Bastow


You are correct. We need to focus on business and thats not going to happen until law order ans taxes are in place. 
We must invest heavily in the aviation industry as he who controls the high ground controls the battle field is very much valid even today


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## jhungary

wanglaokan said:


> how do you know that Z 10 doesnt have scouting and communication ability?
> 
> its really weird that you try to compare Z 10 with Mi 24.
> 
> first you need to get air dominance that you can mobolize your helicopeters, especially in flat area, take out those anti air fire power before helicopters get in battle field.
> its all about numbers in war, unless the gap is generations.
> 
> you need both quality and quantity to win a modern war.
> 
> and FYI, modern armed heli can carry SRAAM that can take out each other.
> 
> you cant get away with a win by counting only on quality, still remember the Tiger VS T34 case? German was totally overwhelmed in numbers.
> 
> as ive said few Apache and AH1z cant do jack shit.



I doubt China will fit L-3 communication module that most other Pakistani aircraft is fitted, and if they cannot communicate with each other, how to they scout? And with a small load out, you cannot put powerful radar on it as well (Consider Viper is twice the weight than Z-10)

Attack chopper have very limited use in battlefield, not just that you need local air superiority, but you also need to clear from ground threat, which mean if there is a unit of soldier with AA weapon such as Manpad, your chopper is grounded.

Problem is, Pakistani is not going to win even local air superiority against India, quite stupid to think otherwise. And then you are talking about a large armoured formation against India? In this case, PA is going to suffer a lot because of the lack of air support.

Which mean in this case, you cannot try to put number in, because the other side is always going to top that and then some. Your example between Tiger and T-34 is flawed. First of all, most Tiger was taken out by CAS, second of all, Tiger was not used as much in Eastern Front than in Western Front, and Germany are fighting a 2 sides war and being pushed together. In this case, you don't even need T-34, even Sherman with P-47 support can win over Germany's Tiger.

In this case, Pakistan need something called "Force Multiplier" to win over India, you cannot just depends on number alone, because if you try o match it, you will lose. And in this case, you need a chopper that can go in and out alone and take out target tactically, and this is not something Z-10 can do.

And if you put a 4 ship formation of Apache or Viper in the right place, you will not believe how much it can do, I have been there, and seen how it work, and I probably cannot tell you how unless you have some basic military tactical knowledge.

And finally, I did not compare Z-10 to Mi-24, I said Z-10 to Pakistan is like Mi-24 to Russia, both were used as dedicated gunship, and I did not compare between the 2

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## 帅的一匹

jhungary said:


> I doubt China will fit L-3 communication module that most other Pakistani aircraft is fitted, and if they cannot communicate with each other, how to they scout? And with a small load out, you cannot put powerful radar on it as well (Consider Viper is twice the weight than Z-10)
> 
> Attack chopper have very limited use in battlefield, not just that you need local air superiority, but you also need to clear from ground threat, which mean if there is a unit of soldier with AA weapon such as Manpad, your chopper is grounded.
> 
> Problem is, Pakistani is not going to win even local air superiority against India, quite stupid to think otherwise. And then you are talking about a large armoured formation against India? In this case, PA is going to suffer a lot because of the lack of air support.
> 
> Which mean in this case, you cannot try to put number in, because the other side is always going to top that and then some. Your example between Tiger and T-34 is flawed. First of all, most Tiger was taken out by CAS, second of all, Tiger was not used as much in Eastern Front than in Western Front, and Germany are fighting a 2 sides war and being pushed together. In this case, you don't even need T-34, even Sherman with P-47 support can win over Germany's Tiger.
> 
> In this case, Pakistan need something called "Force Multiplier" to win over India, you cannot just depends on number alone, because if you try o match it, you will lose. And in this case, you need a chopper that can go in and out alone and take out target tactically, and this is not something Z-10 can do.
> 
> And if you put a 4 ship formation of Apache or Viper in the right place, you will not believe how much it can do, I have been there, and seen how it work, and I probably cannot tell you how unless you have some basic military tactical knowledge.
> 
> And finally, I did not compare Z-10 to Mi-24, I said Z-10 to Pakistan is like Mi-24 to Russia, both were used as dedicated gunship, and I did not compare between the 2


you are exegerating the power of armed helicopters. in my eyes, heli is sitting ducks if there are enough manpads.

its only good in anti terrorists operation.

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## jhungary

wanglaokan said:


> you are exegerating the power of armed helicopters. in my eyes, heli is sitting ducks if there are enough manpads.
> 
> its only good in anti terrorists operation.



Depends on how you use it.

In modern day combine arms warfare, you need them to be able to see ahead of your ground troop, because fast jet cannot loiter long, and slow jet/propeller aircraft is susceptible to ground attack. You need low flying and ground hugging helicopter to do the job.

Modern warfare would mean not a single platform can survive anything alone, you need to work with other platform to perform their work, tank is susceptible to infantry attack, and if you put infantry in APC/IFV and travel along your armour column, they will protect the tank, in turns, the tank takes out enemy tanks and hard target. And Aircraft protect tank. 

That is what Chinese military don't get at the moment. You always need tactical element as much as strategic element in any operational level, you cannot depends on one single hardware, albeit a lot in number, to overcome this cycle, it may works in the 70s, or 80s, not now with modern communication and deployment speed.

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## Oldman1

wanglaokan said:


> you are exegerating the power of armed helicopters. in my eyes, heli is sitting ducks if there are enough manpads.
> 
> its only good in anti terrorists operation.



Exaggerating the power of helicopters yet look where China's position on this subject.

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## 帅的一匹

Oldman1 said:


> Exaggerating the power of helicopters yet look where China's position on this subject.


the future belongs to UAV.

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## Cool_Soldier

With the current development and regular meeting between Pakistan and American Authorities, I expect, deliveries of AHZ1 will start in near future IA.


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## GriffinsRule

wanglaokan said:


> the future belongs to UAV.



But not in our life time


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## Dazzler

Windjammer said:


> Damn, must be much more than a follow up to the Cobra.



It stands a tow to tow with the AH-64E, the TSS system itself is an amazing piece of equipment with the longest search and tracking range among similar sensors in the world.

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## blinder

شاھین میزایل said:


> The serial number of Originally posted pic was 786-061.
> This latest pic has serial number 786-065..
> So i take that 5 have been manufactured for Pakistan.



Highest noted so far were #007 and #008 a couple of months ago. This shot was likely taken in the USA, probably in the vicinity of NAS Patuxent River. After being test flown, inspected and handed over, they have been stored there and at 309th AMARG, Tucson, Arizona. The contract for storage runs into 2019. So either Q4 2018 or Q1 019 for the first arrive in Pakistan I guess.

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## blinder

Update: AH-1Z 786-072 seen at Amarillo, Texas with Boeing helicopters late September.
So, that is #012 meaning all twelve are likely manufactured and could be handed over.
Mind you, that does not mean that they are delivered or will be soon, just that they physically exist!

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## Mace

blinder said:


> Update: AH-1Z 786-072 seen at Amarillo, Texas with Boeing helicopters late September.
> So, that is #012 meaning all twelve are likely manufactured and could be handed over.
> Mind you, that does not mean that they are delivered or will be soon, just that they physically exist!



Handing over might depend on which arm and leg Pak FM Qureshi promised Pompeo


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## TOPGUN

Sooner or later they will come home to PA, watch and see stop with this BS trolling.


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## GriffinsRule



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## khanasifm

1965, 70S, 90S, AND 2016 ... REPEAT ITSELF

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## Imran Khan

khanasifm said:


> 1965, 70S, 90S, AND 2016 ... REPEAT ITSELF


Our forces will never learn ever


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It comes down to Engine Manufacturing if we put effort like Turkey has placed in Heilcopter Engine , Fighter Jet Engine we would not be waiting for these expensive toys

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> View attachment 511772


 so how much did the GoP paid for these assets


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## Mugwop

Let me say this in urdu "Viper pay haath baitha waa hai" "z-10 aur t-129 pay haath nahi baitha wah hai and it takes time to do so"


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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> so how much did the GoP paid for these assets



I dont know but not much. FMS is not our money per say and we stopped making payments hence the non-delivery.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> so how much did the GoP paid for these assets


$0.

The AH-1Zs were ordered using FMF and CSF (aid and CT/COIN reimbursement).

When the US cut the aid, Pakistan didn't want to pay for them using its own money.

The US put them in storage until the aid resumes or we change our minds. *No sanctions.*

As it stands, national funds are going into the T129 from Turkey. Assuming that doesn't crash as a result of US-Turkish issues, then I think the PAA will increase the T129 order (or look to the ATAK 2) if the AH-1Z doesn't come.

Personally, I'd like to see the Rooivalk.

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## bananarepublic

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> $0.
> 
> The AH-1Zs were ordered using FMF and CSF (aid and CT/COIN reimbursement).
> 
> When the US cut the aid, Pakistan didn't want to pay for them using its own money.
> 
> The US put them in storage until the aid resumes or we change our minds. *No sanctions.*
> 
> As it stands, national funds are going into the T129 from Turkey. Assuming that doesn't crash as a result of US-Turkish issues, then I think the PAA will increase the T129 order (or look to the ATAK 2) if the AH-1Z doesn't come.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to see the Rooivalk.



personally i would like to see Pakistan and South Africa work on rooivalk 2 with upgraded power plant and internal
the deal might be even better if we get to also produce puma locally paving the way for pakistans non existant helicopter industry
and even more importantly Pakistan needs to diversify its weapon procurement especially from the US by looking for alternatives.

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## jupiter2007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> $0.
> 
> The AH-1Zs were ordered using FMF and CSF (aid and CT/COIN reimbursement).
> 
> When the US cut the aid, Pakistan didn't want to pay for them using its own money.
> 
> The US put them in storage until the aid resumes or we change our minds. *No sanctions.*
> 
> As it stands, national funds are going into the T129 from Turkey. Assuming that doesn't crash as a result of US-Turkish issues, then I think the PAA will increase the T129 order (or look to the ATAK 2) if the AH-1Z doesn't come.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to see the Rooivalk.



Had we approached South Africa back in early 2000 and worked with them on Denel Rooivalk, we wouldn't be discussing this topic. We would have built 4 complete squadron of Roovialk X in Pakistan.
As far as US-Pakistan relationship is concerned, Pakistani corrupt mafia was funding anti-Pakistan lobby in USA, and that funding is slow down a bit. if nothing major happens in Afghanistan from now until March 2019, we should see improvement in relationship, which means, aid package, helicopter and Jordan F-16 coming to Pakistan (if they are still available).

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## denel

jupiter2007 said:


> Had we approached South Africa back in early 2000 and worked with them on Denel Rooivalk, we wouldn't be discussing this topic. We would have built 4 complete squadron of Roovialk X in Pakistan.
> As far as US-Pakistan relationship is concerned, Pakistani corrupt mafia was funding anti-Pakistan lobby in USA, and that funding is slow down a bit. if nothing major happens in Afghanistan from now until March 2019, we should see improvement in relationship, which means, aid package, helicopter and Jordan F-16 coming to Pakistan (if they are still available).


That is the early test bed Rooivalk in the picture. The irony is Rooivalk was being offered when Turkey was trying to opt between 129 vs rooivalk; american/Eu pressure made them tilt towards T129. It was one of the worst weeks when we had found at Atlas what actually transpired.

Again I say it; Paks lost huge amount of opportunity on Cheetah C/D conversions; plus Rooivalk complete TOTs not to mention IFVs/artillery not to mention communications which would run circles around Harris.

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## Path-Finder

The Rooivalk discussion goes back to 2004/5 I remember it very well it was being sought as a complete replacement for the Cobra. Considering how lame duck those Cobra were, absolutely restricted in their mission capability.

I guess it's not too late to revisit Rooivalk again.


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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> Had we approached South Africa back in early 2000 and worked with them on Denel Rooivalk, we wouldn't be discussing this topic. We would have built 4 complete squadron of Roovialk X in Pakistan.
> As far as US-Pakistan relationship is concerned, Pakistani corrupt mafia was funding anti-Pakistan lobby in USA, and that funding is slow down a bit. if nothing major happens in Afghanistan from now until March 2019, we should see improvement in relationship, which means, aid package, helicopter and Jordan F-16 coming to Pakistan (if they are still available).


no, the point is USA knows it can squeez pakistan through other means, the carrot is gone, its only going to be stick. pakistan ignored the USA congress while india lobbied for years, any aid, weapons will be strictly frowned by pro indian group which has strong roots in congress and whole indian community is united against pakistan here. you cant send a cent down to pakistan without the indian lobby crying ..how can you think about other weapon systems

things will only chnage if USA realizes it cannot squeez us(Econmical mis management is over), if pakistn polcy is straigth forward and if we are potical strong



denel said:


> That is the early test bed Rooivalk in the picture. The irony is Rooivalk was being offered when Turkey was trying to opt between 129 vs rooivalk; american/Eu pressure made them tilt towards T129. It was one of the worst weeks when we had found at Atlas what actually transpired.
> 
> Again I say it; Paks lost huge amount of opportunity on Cheetah C/D conversions; plus Rooivalk complete TOTs not to mention IFVs/artillery not to mention communications which would run circles around Harris.


pakistan needs to focus not only on their immediate needs but also slowly builidng up defense industry with TOT, i think south africa is one avenue that was not explored, especially in choppers, Air to Air missles, SAM and artillery sector

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> no, the point is USA knows it can squeez pakistan through other means, the carrot is gone, its only going to be stick. pakistan ignored the USA congress while india lobbied for years, any aid, weapons will be strictly frowned by pro indian group which has strong roots in congress and whole indian community is united against pakistan here. you cant send a cent down to pakistan without the indian lobby crying ..how can you think about other weapon systems
> 
> things will only chnage if USA realizes it cannot squeez us(Econmical mis management is over), if pakistn polcy is straigth forward and if we are potical strong
> 
> 
> pakistan needs to focus not only on their immediate needs but also slowly builidng up defense industry with TOT, i think south africa is one avenue that was not explored, especially in choppers, Air to Air missles, SAM and artillery sector



Government and institutions are not the only thing corrupt in Pakistan, our army is also corrupt.
Army general/s children are studying in top universities in USA where yearly tuitions is over 100,000 dollars. Where is this money is coming from?
Our army general are corrupt, their wives do thousands of dollars of shopping on USA visit. Where does this money come from? Instead of kick back defence vendors buy expensive gifts for general’s wife.... Gifts are loaded in c-130 and taken to Islamabad.

If you want to eliminate corrupt and corruption, it has to be done correctly and for everyone. Why so much land/plots are allotted to higher ranking officers? Why they travel in business class instead of economy class? Why army thinks they are better than everyone? Army and agencies need to stop experimenting with Pakistan.

I am not saying that whole army is corrupt but there are few bad apples who are abusing their power and army needs to bring proper checks and balances. They also need to address grievances of Pashtuns in the Army, Airforce and Navy. Pashtuns feel that Pakistani army doctrine changed and it will NOT allow a non-Punjabi to reach higher ranking. If this not fixed now, foreign agencies can take advantage of just like they did before 1971 in Dhaka.


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## BATMAN

When Pakistan fail to react strongly.. US will continue to ridicule Pakistan in same way.
Now is time to put a fullstop on free transit aid, Imran Khan should take the bold decision and start charging $10'000 from each American container landing at Pakistan ports.

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> no, the point is USA knows it can squeez pakistan through other means, the carrot is gone, its only going to be stick. pakistan ignored the USA congress while india lobbied for years, any aid, weapons will be strictly frowned by pro indian group which has strong roots in congress and whole indian community is united against pakistan here. you cant send a cent down to pakistan without the indian lobby crying ..how can you think about other weapon systems
> 
> things will only chnage if USA realizes it cannot squeez us(Econmical mis management is over), if pakistn polcy is straigth forward and if we are potical strong
> 
> 
> pakistan needs to focus not only on their immediate needs but also slowly builidng up defense industry with TOT, i think south africa is one avenue that was not explored, especially in choppers, Air to Air missles, SAM and artillery sector


Correct. Unfortunately, Paks had their own interests which were not even aligned with the true patriotic duties for long term internal growth but who paid highest commission and other vested interests. Indeed it is sad in a way of what could have been a hugely profitable partnership.

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## ziaulislam

BATMAN said:


> When Pakistan fail to react strongly.. US will continue to ridicule Pakistan in same way.
> Now is time to put a fullstop on free transit aid, Imran Khan should take the bold decision and start charging $10'000 from each American container landing at Pakistan ports.


unfortunately now is not the time, we are broke, we need mulitlateral donor organization to start, it s time to build up the country, decade of democracy has destroyed the country fundamentals..debt that at the beginning of 2006 stood at 50% of gdp has gone back up to 76% nearly doubled in last 10 years..we are in the same position as we were in 1998

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> unfortunately now is not the time, we are broke, we need mulitlateral donor organization to start, it s time to build up the country, decade of democracy has destroyed the country fundamentals..debt that at the beginning of 2006 stood at 50% of gdp has gone back up to 76% nearly doubled in last 10 years..we are in the same position as we were in 1998


another decade to dig out of the mess and regretfully Paks never learnt like us when sanctions were imposed in 60s. Our leadership knew it was coming for a decade and they prepared and went into over drive; first thing was to prioritise fuel security and massive industrialisation; SASOL was born; everything from parafin to regular fuel to LPG is derived from coal here. I am not joking, you must come and visit Secunda, Sasolburg etc; the scale of achievement is to be had; it did not stop there; every passenger vehicle was mandated to be localised in terms of contents; and dual purpose for medium and large engines; Unimog was the basis of all our mineproof and it lives one across so many variants including those borrowed to the americans.

Alas, you have so much talent yet complete lack of foresight in terms of leadership; alas we are suffering for the Paks' blight in terms of leadership and crooks. Fortunately our private industry is trudging along at a rapid pace while the Govt plays with its balls.

When the americans put the squeeze, verdict was simply said... up yours and 'we make a plan'. that was the innovation driver for tonnes of stuff locally.

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## monitor

The rumors regarding blocking AH-1Z vipers to Pakistan maybe true . Pakistan's AH-1Z might given to Bahrain instead. 

Source : Ahmad Ibrahim twitter.


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## Zulfiqar

monitor said:


> The rumors regarding blocking AH-1Z vipers to Pakistan maybe true . Pakistan's AH-1Z might given to Bahrain instead.
> 
> Source : Ahmad Ibrahim twitter.



As much as I like AH-1z, it's time to move on.

PAF helped in evaluating F 7 mg/pg. If PA takes the same route with Z 10 ME then we could see it having a home in Multan.


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## HRK

Goku-kun said:


> ..........


was it necessary to respond a false flag multiple account Indian .....???

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## Dubious

Goku-kun said:


> .....


Dude behave! What language are you using?

We are aware of the politics but it can be said properly!



Oneloveheretic said:


> @Dubious he is insulting my nationality and country. Reporting him just as you had requested.


Stop crying foul you started it we can see it from the posts!

*Everyone MIND your language! I dont want to come to this thread again! If I am called again next one tempting another WILL get a warning!*


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## Goku-kun

HRK said:


> was it necessary to respond a false flag multiple account Indian .....???


sir he was insulting our country and as a patriotic Pakistani I couldn't tolerate their ignorance.If I am insulting his nationality than he is insulting myne too so report his as well


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## Dubious

Oneloveheretic said:


> @Dubious he is insulting my nationality and country. Reporting him just as you had requested.


He hasnt insulted your "nationality"! Stop crying foul! He insulted a Orange man (called such several times on media and is the current joke of the world) you guys elected ....own your mistake!



Oneloveheretic said:


> When the rubber meets the road, they discard Chinese military products to the side and covet American.


Same American are using parts made in China/ imported from China not sure what you are chest thumping about?! 

http://www.worldstopexports.com/automotive-parts-imports-by-country/


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## Goku-kun

Oneloveheretic said:


> @Dubious he is insulting my nationality and country. Reporting him just as you had requested.


Our geography is gold dude.We don't need you but you need us and don't let me start on the details or you will be ashamed by your country's dirty politics here


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## Oneloveheretic

Dubious said:


> He hasnt insulted your "nationality"! Stop crying foul! He insulted a Orange man (called such several times on media and is the current joke of the world) you guys elected ....own your mistake!
> 
> 
> Same American are using parts made in China/ imported from China not sure what you are chest thumping about?!
> 
> http://www.worldstopexports.com/automotive-parts-imports-by-country/


Him using lang as "dick sucking" I guess is not bad language? but I got a negative rating from you for using a common English harmless term "double whammy".

Using Chinese parts was not the point I was making. I read a chain on AZ1 Viper now going for years it seems and saw many people, the very same ones who hate America often here, still wanting our american products. One would figure they would go buy Chinese and just let sleeping dogs lie (btw "let sleeping dogs lie" is not bad langauge; it is an idiom)


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## Dubious

Oneloveheretic said:


> btw "let sleeping dogs lie" is not bad langauge; its is an idiom


And there is the insult!

You simply lack manners dont you?!



Oneloveheretic said:


> I read


Then post it like a normal human being!



Oneloveheretic said:


> One would figure


Nothing on the planet is black or white and what does assuming stuff and then accusing people for not behaving as you assumed is asking for trouble! 

*ENOUGH! You are not 12 yrs old if you are...Get adult supervision for this site!*

Have a good day!


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## HRK

Goku-kun said:


> sir he was insulting our country and as a patriotic Pakistani I couldn't tolerate their ignorance.If I am insulting his nationality than he is insulting myne too so report his as well


He is an *Indian *posting with the sole purpose of *Trolling* and *flambait* and *thread derailment *so rather to respond *just report *


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## Goku-kun

Oneloveheretic said:


> Him using lang as "dick sucking" I guess is not bad language? but I got a negative rating from you for using a common English harmless term "double whammy".
> 
> Using Chinese parts was not the point I was making. I read a chain on AZ1 Viper now going for years it seems and saw many people, the very same ones who hate America often here, still wanting our american products. One would figure they would go buy Chinese and just let sleeping dogs lie (btw "let sleeping dogs lie" is not bad langauge; it is an idiom)


that's the point we are trying to explain you my friend.We want your stuff to make you happy,to avoid those 'sanctions' because we can't deny the fact that you are super power and getting in a direct conflict would be dangerous for us. Entire trade is been done in your currency so it would get any country in danger to have a direct war with you and you have made that dollar strong from that gold you looted after WW2.


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## Path-Finder

its time to close this thread. those choppers are not coming.

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