# PK 18 Battlefield Rifle , SMG PK 21 (AK-103) and PK-10 are way forward



## Sulman Badshah



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## Maarkhoor

Sulman Badshah said:


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G3 with new cloths nothing else.

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## Sulman Badshah

Maarkhoor said:


> G3 with new cloths nothing else.


It is GAS Operated and Rotating bolt

G3 is Roller Delayed Blowback

(some similarity in design are there) but it is not same rifle

Moreover Rifle weight is 3.8 kg which is well below than EU rifle

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## The Accountant

Why can't we design and manufacture our own next generation rifle? Can you please share specific insights? Is this that complicated a task or we are too lazy and dont want to do any R&D?

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## Bilal.

Maarkhoor said:


> G3 with new cloths nothing else.


It’s a AR based rifle and gas operated.Also look at the fire select mechanism, mag release everything is AR15 platform based. So not rehashed G3, more like HK416. This design should be adopted for standard issue rifles.

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## Maarkhoor

Bilal. said:


> It’s a AR based rifle and gas operated. So not rehashed G3, more like HK416. This design should be adopted for standard issue rifles.


Only bolt is different rest all mech is same.

I am not impressed since we have tech to build our own complete rifle but they don't want to invest in R&D.

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## Bilal.

Maarkhoor said:


> Only bolt is different rest all mech is same.
> 
> I am not impressed since we have tech to build our own complete rifle but they don't want to invest in R&D.



The whole mechanism is AR based which part Is the same is G3. Plus, I am also pleased with the use of Mlok on hand guard.

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## Maarkhoor

Bilal. said:


> The whole mechanism is AR based which part Is the same is G3. Plus, I am also pleased with the use of Mlok on hand guard.


Prove me it is based on AR.


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## Bilal.

Maarkhoor said:


> Prove me it is based on AR.


Buddy look at the picture... lol the buffer tube, gas operated, rotating bolt, the fire select, mag release, bolt release...

the bolt carrier is an standard AR design also the charging handle... so forth.
I only hope it’s piston operated and not DI.

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## Fawadqasim1

Sulman Badshah said:


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Are we manufacturing ak 103

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## Black Bird

Sir i have a Question. When POF making these Rifles then why we are looking from outside?

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## Army research

Maarkhoor said:


> G3 with new cloths nothing else.


Dude do you know anything about guns at all ?



Sulman Badshah said:


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Thank God POF has finally made a good original ( face it all modern guns are inspired by some other ) hopefully this passes trials and goes into service, I don't see anything wrong with this , reliable AR15 direct impingement system , reliable 7.62x51, much lighter than g3 , comparable stats to equivalents like HK417 and ARX200, 
Insha Allah this local product gets domestic and foreign orders soon

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## Maarkhoor

Army research said:


> Dude do you know anything about guns at all ?

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## Army research

Maarkhoor said:


> Prove me it is based on AR.


Literally the entire firing mechanism bolt spring placement , it's a fine product



Maarkhoor said:


>


You ok dude ? How can you not tell the difference between a roller delayed and a direct impingment

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## Sulman Badshah

Fawadqasim1 said:


> Are we manufacturing ak 103


yes,.. It is named as PK 21 by POF

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## Gryphon

@Path-Finder @HRK @Starlord 

Looks like the report about 140,000 AK-103 assault rifles may be true.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

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## Bilal.

Army research said:


> You ok dude ? How can you not tell the difference between a roller delayed and a direct impingment



My theory, he doesn’t see a forward assist and comes to the conclusion that it’s not an AR 

on a serous note, they should have made it short strike piston instead of DI.


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## Army research

Bilal. said:


> My theory, he doesn’t see a forward assist and comes to the conclusion that it’s not an AR
> 
> on a serous note, they should have made it short strike piston instead of DI.


True but to be honest , I'm even happy with this because at least it's locally made and can do the job , hopefully looking forward to using this when it gets pressed into service in the next 4-6 years if they do use this instead of other rifles trialed

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## Trango Towers

The Accountant said:


> Why can't we design and manufacture our own next generation rifle? Can you please share specific insights? Is this that complicated a task or we are too lazy and dont want to do any R&D?


I have always wondered this too ??


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## CHI RULES

Sulman Badshah said:


> It is GAS Operated and Rotating bolt
> 
> G3 is Roller Delayed Blowback
> 
> (some similarity in design are there) but it is not same rifle
> 
> Moreover Rifle weight is 3.8 kg which is well below than EU rifle



Can it be adopted as replacement of G3. Further a lay man can like me can observe it's light weight and other differences from G3 version in use by PA. At least a positive effort by POF.


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## Ahmet Pasha

G3 weds MPT76


Sulman Badshah said:


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Army research said:


> True but to be honest , I'm even happy with this because at least it's locally made and can do the job , hopefully looking forward to using this when it gets pressed into service in the next 4-6 years if they do use this instead of other rifles trialed



Bhai Jan such bataon. I am ecstatic to see POF showing some effort. To see that same old "afsar" mindedness in military. Particularly in AF and Army is going away makes me happy.

AF is doing good work on AZM.

I am happy with this design. At least we are trying. Also nice to see that we trialed rifles, learnt from them and now trying to make our own. All the MoU and LoIs we signed with CZ, Berretta and FB Radom etc are paying off. Remeber we also signed for some cnc and tooling machines from Czech Rep. I think. So that hardware could have been for this project. This will save us some good chunk of change and maybe we will make some money from it too.

AK-103 if it really is that shouldn't have that bony metal stock as it is very hard on shoulders. Rather a smoother, more padded one should be best.

@Quwa I wonder if the cnc and tooling machines we bought were for this??
Could POF make more in house designs. Like a shotgun, smg pistol to replace mp5, a bullpup(either for cqb or to replace mp5) and a squad automatic weapon maybe??

There were whispers of SF looking for new LMGs

Your insight

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## Army research

Ahmet Pasha said:


> G3 weds MPT76
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai Jan such bataon. I am ecstatic to see POF showing some effort. To see that same old "afsar" mindedness in military. Particularly in AF and Army is going away makes me happy.
> 
> AF is doing good work on AZM.
> 
> I am happy with this design. At least we are trying. Also nice to see that we trialed rifles, learnt from them and now trying to make our own. All the MoU and LoIs we signed with CZ, Berretta and FB Radom etc are paying off. Remeber we also signed for some cnc and tooling machines from Czech Rep. I think. So that hardware could have been for this project. This will save us some good chunk of change and maybe we will make some money from it too.
> 
> AK-103 if it really is that shouldn't have that bony metal stock as it is very hard on shoulders. Rather a smoother, more padded one should be best.
> 
> @Quwa I wonder if the cnc and tooling machines we bought were for this??
> Could POF make more in house designs. Like a shotgun, smg pistol to replace mp5, a bullpup(either for cqb or to replace mp5) and a squad automatic weapon maybe??
> 
> There were whispers of SF looking for new LMGs
> 
> Your insight


One could imagine a IAR27 ( SAW variant for US army based on HK417 ) be made out of the pof18, give it a drum magazine or box , heavier and more easily replaceable barrier


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## Ahmet Pasha

Yep L86 from call of duty(I don't think brits put it to service). Also Russians also made an lmg variant of AK family based on same mindset.


Army research said:


> One could imagine a IAR27 ( SAW variant for US army based on HK417 ) be made out of the pof18, give it a drum magazine or box , heavier and more easily replaceable barrier


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## Ahmet Pasha

Also preferrably POF and all other defence companies should go for developing concepts for a whole family of weapons. Instead of wasting time, money and brains on single projects.


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## Invictus.inc

AR is an ideal platform for 7.62×51 & 5.56
For a 7.62×39 I think the CZ Bren Would do a much better Job but it surely does look good on paper
Let's see how it does in the field

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## Ahmet Pasha

I agree bren in x39 is very good.


Invictus.inc said:


> AR is an ideal platform for 7.62×51 & 5.56
> For a 7.62×39 I think the CZ Bren Would do a much better Job but it surely does look good on paper
> Let's see how it does in the field


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## PakGuns

is PK18 available for public?? is gun licensing open?

if so then how much would pk18 cost??


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## Path-Finder

Nice, No FN SCAR unfortunately Hazrat @Zarvan

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## Sulman Badshah

PakGuns said:


> is PK18 available for public?? is gun licensing open?
> 
> if so then how much would pk18 cost??


License are open mainly for Govt employees 

For Public POF is offering .308 win sporter (based on G3)

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## HRK

Gryphon said:


> @Path-Finder @HRK @Starlord
> 
> Looks like the report about 140,000 AK-103 assault rifles may be true.
> 
> http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/


seem true
plz watch the following video of AK-103 trial in Pakistan




__ https://www.facebook.com/





but there is a conflicting report from India media (plz read) and these conflicting news were reported by different Indian media houses many times, one more thing India is in negotiation with Russia for the manufacturing of AK-103 in India under make in India arrangements

P.S. OR it could really a Pakistani version/copy of Ak-103 hence a new designation ....??
as muzzle breaker of of new PK-21 is different than the original muzzle breaker of AK-103 and it is more traditional one than the new one adopted for AK-103

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## Sine Nomine

Maarkhoor said:


> Prove me it is based on AR.





Maarkhoor said:


> G3 with new cloths nothing else.








Rattay sahab it's AR-15 a.k.a M-16 based rifle.It uses multi-lug rotating bolt for locking and direct gas impingement for action cycling as compared to G-3 which uses rollor delayed blow back operating mechanism.
Both are different kind of systems have nothing to do with each other.


Bilal. said:


> I only hope it’s piston operated and not DI.


It's DI,no visable gas tube and piston.A bad move.

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## Sulman Badshah

HRK said:


> seem true
> plz watch one following video of AK-103 trial in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but a conflicting report from India media (plz read) and these conflicting news was reported by different Indian media houses many times, one more thing India is in negotiation with Russia for the manufacturing of AK-103 in India under make in India arrangements


Indian variant is AK 203 (which is further based on 103 )

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## Sine Nomine

@Foxtrot Alpha that's rifle which surfaced during one of COAS visit to POF and we were talkig about it.

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## Army research

doorstar said:


> it isn't a gun
> how? are you being sent one by mail?


It's not a gun? 
Not by mail no you've got it wrong


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## Path-Finder

Maarkhoor said:


> Prove me it is based on AR.





Maarkhoor said:


>


@The Eagle @waz @Dubious unnecessarily trolling!

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## bananarepublic

Sulman Badshah said:


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When did this happen!! ?
Where is the picture from?


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## Maarkhoor

Bilal. said:


> Buddy look at the picture... lol the buffer tube, gas operated, rotating bolt, the fire select, mag release, bolt release...
> 
> the bolt carrier is an standard AR design also the charging handle... so forth.
> I only hope it’s piston operated and not DI.


Design, barrel, trigger mech and caliber is same as G3 so only difference is bolt....


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## Bilal.

Maarkhoor said:


> Design, barrel, trigger mech and caliber is same as G3 so only difference is bolt....



the main operation (gas operated) is not G3 buddy. The caliber is 7.62NATO nothing to do with G3 exclusively.



Sine Nomine said:


> View attachment 586143
> 
> It's DI,no visable gas tube and piston.A bad move.



Should put a little more design effort and have a short stroke piston rifle. For a rifle that may serve many decades to come its worth it. I am pleasantly surprised by the use of Mlok, keeps the weight down while still providing attachment points for accessories.

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## The Eagle

Bilal. said:


> the main operation (gas operated) is not G3 buddy. The caliber is 7.62NATO nothing to do with G3 exclusively.



AR15 for 7.62x51 for NATO... the new gun in subject has nothing to do G3 on larger scale at all except for couple of similarities.





AR15 platform with 7.62x51 for NATO

and PK18 then.

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## iLION12345_1

I do honestly hope you’re trolling…You speak of the G3’s caliber as it is only used in the G3. Are you alright? It’s used in hundreds of guns and it is the perfect caliber for our armed forces, hence they don’t move away from it. Secondly you can’t make an army this huge move an entire standard caliber. That would completely destroy the entire logistics system. Our standard MGs and Snipers use this caliber for a reason too.
Also, you speak of similarities to the G3 as a bad thing. The G3 is a legendary weapon. It does not need to be improved, only modernized, because it is already a great weapon. Just outdated. And that is exactly what POF has done. The biggest issue G3 had was length and weight and this addressed both, staying as close to the original rifle is actually good for the armed forces as the soldiers will be familiar with it and less re-training is required.
And even after all that is said, it barely shares any similarly to a G3. Please don’t try to be an armchair general or weapons expert. The generals with 40 years of experience, a professional armies testers and trained weapon designers will know better than any of us sitting at home on a computer. I trust them with the decision. 



Maarkhoor said:


> Design, barrel, trigger mech and caliber is same as G3 so only difference is bolt....

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## Sine Nomine

Maarkhoor said:


> Design, barrel, trigger mech and caliber is same as G3 so only difference is bolt....


Design is different rollor delayed vs direct gas impingement, it uses different kind of barrel,barrel extension, rifling etc and trigger mechanism is also different same as AR-15.



Bilal. said:


> Should put a little more design effort and have an short strike piston rifle. For a rifle that may serve many decades to come its worth it. I am pleasantly surprised by the use of Mlok, keeps the weight down while still providing attachment points for accessories.


No more design effort,only few minor tweaks are needed.SSGP is better it's much cleaner system and suits us very well.
MLOK is standard they pretty much have produced an AR-10 copy nothing else.

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> yes,.. It is named as PK 21 by POF


For love of GOD than at least manufacture AK 203

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> For love of GOD than at least manufacture AK 203


Some of the AKs I see being given to the boys now are not stock 103s. They have have rails and such. But the number is small. Majority are still stock.
But I agree. If both the G3 and the AK platform need to work in tandem. Both need to be replaced to modern standards.


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## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> For love of GOD than at least manufacture AK 203


Modifications and modernization (similar) will be conducted in future 

We needed the platform that is AK 103

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## Sine Nomine

I am not impressed by this at all.PA needs a clean sheet design.A system which suits our needs.
A MCR which can be used by all service branches of MOD and MOI, customized according to their needs.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

To be frank I am not too excited abt this system until there is an official announcement of changing the rifle system.
some members might remember some time back (near the end of Musharraf era) POf revealed assault rifle systems based on G3 mechanism in 5.56 and 7.62x39 but nothing came of it. 
this is a good R&D initiative but until proper assembly line is produced there is no need to assume this is a G3 replacement.

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## Sine Nomine

Sulman Badshah said:


> Modifications and modernization (similar) will be conducted in future
> 
> We needed the platform that is AK 103


Ak-103 is step in wrong direction.


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## Bilal.

Sine Nomine said:


> No more design effort,only few minor tweaks are needed.SSGP is better it's much cleaner system and suits us very well.
> MLOK is standard they pretty much have produced an AR-10 copy nothing else.



true even small time companies making civilian weapons are churning out short stroke piston based AR nowadays, POF with the resources it has surely can.

I am glad they didn’t do a clunky and heavy quad picatinny. Now if they could have a CHF barrel... boy oh boy

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal. said:


> tru even small time companies making civilian weapons are churning out short stroke piston based AR nowadays, POF with the resources it has surely can.


What they did can be done by a competent machinist in his shop.


> I am glad they didn’t do a clunky and heavy quad picatinny. Now if they could have a CHF barrel... boy oh boy


Quads are going out of fashion MLOK and Keymod are future.
CHF is costly,can't be done for all rifles,but it surely can be done for DMR's.

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## Gryphon

HRK said:


> seem true
> plz watch the following video of AK-103 trial in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but there is a conflicting report from India media (plz read) and these conflicting news were reported by different Indian media houses many times, one more thing India is in negotiation with Russia for the manufacturing of AK-103 in India under make in India arrangements



Ignore the Indian media BS.



> P.S. OR it could really a Pakistani version/copy of Ak-103 hence a new designation ....??
> as muzzle breaker of of new PK-21 is different than the original muzzle breaker of AK-103 and it is more traditional one than the new one adopted for AK-103



There is difference, but I don't think POF will produce an unlicensed AK-103 clone and brand it SMG PK-21 (AK-103).

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## Sulman Badshah

Gryphon said:


> Ignore the Indian media BS.
> 
> 
> 
> There is difference, but I don't think POF will produce an unlicensed AK-103 clone and brand it SMG PK-21 (AK-103).


yes AK 103 comes under license (TOT)

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## bananarepublic

Sulman Badshah said:


> yes AK 103 comes under license (TOT)



Is the picture from the recent turkish defense expo happening here?


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## Path-Finder

@Sulman Badshah @Gryphon The optic on the rifle which is ACOG alike! what is the story behind that? Is that standard issue optic? 












__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188062196560990209

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## Mr.Cringeworth

Sine Nomine said:


> View attachment 586143
> 
> Rattay sahab it's AR-15 a.k.a M-16 based rifle.It uses multi-lug rotating bolt for locking and direct gas impingement for action cycling as compared to G-3 which uses rollor delayed blow back operating mechanism.
> Both are different kind of systems have nothing to do with each other.
> 
> It's DI,no visable gas tube and piston.A bad move.


None the less it's still a great news they've started their own research and development, and there's no telling they will improve on this hopefully the next upgrade to this is gonna have a piston operated design as it is not just robust but a more reliable design.

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## Sine Nomine

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> None the less it's still a great news they've started their own research and development, and there's no telling they will improve on this hopefully the next upgrade to this is gonna have a piston operated design as it is not just robust but a more reliable design.


No research is involved in this project it's a pure copy of AR-15 chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO round.

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## Mr.Cringeworth

Maarkhoor said:


> Design, barrel, trigger mech and caliber is same as G3 so only difference is bolt....


It's a totally different design, you can't just say that because "it has a trigger and a barrel and a fixed sight and when you press the trigger it fires so it's the same gun" no it's not stop saying that.


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## Sulman Badshah

Path-Finder said:


> @Sulman Badshah @Gryphon The optic on the rifle which is ACOG alike! what is the story behind that? Is that standard issue optic?


Institute of optronics have opened a new lab regarding normal and TI sights (but i don't think lab is in full capacity to accommodate troops)

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## Mr.Cringeworth

Sine Nomine said:


> No research is involved in this project it's a pure copy of AR-15 chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO round.


Come on man at least give them credit where it's due. Pakistan doesn't have any ar platform rifle chambered in 7.62×51 so they couldn't have copied it its a new design although it is based on ar but tell me what modern rifle isn't, every rifle you see today is based on ar-15's design. They all have the same magazine well thay all even use the same magazines the stanag mags.

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## Zarvan

@Horus Sir G any comments


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## Sine Nomine

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Come on man at least give them credit where it's due. Pakistan doesn't have any ar platform rifle chambered in 7.62×51 so they couldn't have copied it its a new design although it is based on ar but tell me what modern rifle isn't, every rifle you see today is based on ar-15's design. They all have the same magazine well thay all even use the same magazines the stanag mags.


Go to Peshawar tell them any caliber,they would make an AR in that for you.


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## ziaulislam

it doesnt matter where it comes from as long as it suit new generation requirements and is lcoally build

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## Mr.Cringeworth

Sine Nomine said:


> Go to Peshawar tell them any caliber,they would make an AR in that for you.


And what makes you think ,what they do in Peshawar is different than what Europeans and americans do in their fancy workshops, it's the same thing. I bet you any of these machinist that works in Darra are more than capable than their counterparts in these big factories.
So my point is yes they can do it not because it is easy to do what they do but because they are competent people, and this does not undermine pof's efforts just by saying "they can do it in Peshawar".


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## Sine Nomine

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> And what makes you think ,what they do in Peshawar is different than what Europeans and americans do in their fancy workshops, it's the same thing. I bet you any of these machinist that works in Darra are more than capable than their counterparts in these big factories.
> So my point is yes they can do it not because it is easy to do what they do but because they are competent people, and this does not undermine pof's efforts just by saying "they can do it in Peshawar".


Quality of Product and finish of our products is way behind their's.
POF makes quality firearms having poor finish.

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## YeBeWarned

Gryphon said:


> @Path-Finder @HRK @Starlord
> 
> Looks like the report about 140,000 AK-103 assault rifles may be true.
> 
> http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/



Kinda sad to see CZ perform not to the task specially in Gharo base, but DAMNNNNNNNNN AK was buried in mud with over a hour with 56C temperature still fire without a problem is just something I would want for our soldier in certain sectors of IB's .
If this 140,000 rifles order was to ultimately replace all the primary weapon than we might see a follow up order soon ? reason for going on small orders maybe not to raise eye brows in our east ?

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## WarKa DaNG

Shall be used as a DMR


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## Ahmet Pasha

I always wanted an AK74 like pistol in FN's 5.7mm


Sine Nomine said:


> Go to Peshawar tell them any caliber,they would make an AR in that for you.



@Zarvan SCAR nai ai??? The very reason I joined this forum 

I thought manuals were issued.

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## Mr.Cringeworth

Sine Nomine said:


> Quality of Product and finish of our products is way behind their's.
> POF makes quality firearms having poor finish.


Looks are unimportant in warfare.


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## Tipu7

Sulman Badshah said:


> Institute of optronics have opened a new lab regarding normal and TI sights (but i don't think lab is in full capacity to accommodate troops)





Path-Finder said:


> @Sulman Badshah @Gryphon The optic on the rifle which is ACOG alike! what is the story behind that? Is that standard issue optic?

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## The Eagle

Seems like POF has to come forward and ask PDF members as how will be satisfied and then go ahead with any project. Most of the comments are like "I am not satisfied" "POF should have gone with xyz" "honestly, that is no work but copy" "POF is not working as I see" "POF is to fulfill my dreams" "my dreams aren't coming true"...

Don't mind but that is the story at most when it comes to geniuses. Instead of bringing something forward to discuss in view of circumstances that we face; everyone is supposed to be disappointed. Enjoy the future standard issue, at-least.

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## Haris Ali2140

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 586179
> View attachment 586180


You said that it is stop gap replacement . Then what is the permanent replacement???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

WarKa DaNG said:


> Shall be used as a DMR


Already have Azb DMR:

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## Tipu7

Haris Ali2140 said:


> You said that it is stop gap replacement . Then what is the permanent replacement???


Because we are going to produce them in limited batches first. If proved satisfactory, then we will mass produce them.

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## Kompromat

I really wanna punch some guys here.

1: Appreciate POF for making a decent effort.

2: Yeah i know it not as hot as some imported pieces, but its still good. An HK, AR hybrid. 

3: PK-18 has been throughly tested in all conditions.

4: It takes G3 mags.

5: No restriction on export.

PS: I hate the buttstock and the finishing. They should really upgrade them.

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## Pandora

Considering our budget constraints PK18 PK21 and PK10 are superb efforts with almost next to nothing in R&D BUDGET. I seriously dont understand people talking $hit about this amazing effort and ridiculing it. All those naysayers in this thread can go screw themselves. This is best that has ever been produced and it is much better than previous models which were based on G3. I really hope they induct these in sizeable numbers and screw those expensive better options at least we know this one is ours and sanction proof.

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## TNT

Looks aweaome and stats are at par. It should be our new standard issue rifle.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 586179
> View attachment 586180



Thanks for clarifying ... trijicon is US based firm

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## Sine Nomine

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Looks are unimportant in warfare.


Not for commercial market and export.



Horus said:


> 1: Appreciate POF for making a decent effort.


Yeah i appreciate a Lion for taking down a mice.


> 2: Yeah i know it not as hot as some imported pieces, but its still good. An HK, AR hybrid


It isn't hybrid a plane AR-15/10 taking HK mags.


> 3: PK-18 has been throughly tested in all conditions.


System it uses has been out in service from days of Vietnam war.


> 5: No restriction on export.


Who would buy an AR from us,when US is there to supply.


The Eagle said:


> Seems like POF has to come forward and ask PDF members as how will be satisfied and then go ahead with any project. Most of the comments are like "I am not satisfied" "POF should have gone with xyz" "honestly, that is no work but copy" "POF is not working as I see" "POF is to fulfill my dreams" "my dreams aren't coming true"...
> 
> Don't mind but that is the story at most when it comes to geniuses. Instead of bringing something forward to discuss in view of circumstances that we face; everyone is supposed to be disappointed. Enjoy the future standard issue, at-least.


Forget PDF,everyone is satisfied.Except those who know that DI systems have problem and there is strong argument for replacing them with SSGP or LSGP.
Let's see if it becomes a standard issue or not.
P.S:-May be once again you would say that i am once again not in favour of positive news but sorry to say POF is giant and i expect much more from them.Such a large Org and it has produced an AR-15 in 7.62x51,when their is a need for clean sheet design.

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## Path-Finder

Horus said:


> I really wanna punch some guys here.


I hope I am not among them 



Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 586179
> View attachment 586180


I guess Trijicon is just for display purposes only. Most likely optics supplied will be from other vendors.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

This is an excellent start, and I was hoping we'd design our own rifle based on the AR platform (which works for a lot of countries and companies). If anything, I'd hope for 3 things moving forward: (1) we obviously keep improving and, maybe, look at a 5.56 mm and 7.62x39 mm variant; (2) manufacture this rifle with 100% local content; and (3) move into optics, UGBLs, etc.

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## gangsta_rap

broken muzzle


----------



## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is an excellent start, and I was hoping we'd design our own rifle based on the AR platform (which works for a lot of countries and companies). If anything, I'd hope for 3 things moving forward: (1) we obviously keep improving and, maybe, look at a 5.56 mm and 7.62x39 mm variant; (2) manufacture this rifle with 100% local content; and (3) move into optics, UGBLs, etc.



Along with different calibre, they should also look into different barrel lengths. Carbine/CQB -556 between 10.5 to 14.5”, patrol & DMR - 762 at 16” & 18-20”

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## The Eagle

Sine Nomine said:


> Not for commercial market and export.
> 
> 
> Yeah i appreciate a Lion for taking down a mice.
> 
> It isn't hybrid a plane AR-15/10 taking HK mags.
> 
> System it uses has been out in service from days of Vietnam war.
> 
> Who would buy an AR from us,when US is there to supply.
> 
> Forget PDF,everyone is satisfied.Except those who know that DI systems have problem and there is strong argument for replacing them with SSGP or LSGP.
> Let's see if it becomes a standard issue or not.
> P.S:-May be once again you would say that i am once again not in favour of positive news but sorry to say POF is giant and i expect much more from them.Such a large Org and it has produced an AR-15 in 7.62x51,when their is a need for clean sheet design.



Who is even asking for favours at all. I am looking from different angle at everything that comes out. Such is the development and call it baby step or giant leap, but we moving forward. The one who use the tool, knows it well as how it works & why to be different than xyz product. When I am expecting too much form an organization then I have to look into circumstances that organization is running. A higher standard or favourite design rifle is not the issue but that is not the one requirement at hand where we have a lot of hands to be filled with other tools as well. It has already and still, going through a lot of tests. 

Nobody claimed that all the services/branches will be using pk-21 AK-103 or PK-10 but there will be requirement as per current design and then the upgrades & changes comes with time. We start with less but then we aim at higher end product in our hands in the end. We had to utilize existing set-up with less headache of upgrades having our limited budget but for better product hence, such hybrid is perfect match as long as it helps to shoot as & when needed. A gas operated, rotating barrel 7.62x51 with such setup in hybrid form of top notch rifles, is a good start that I see.

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## Thorough Pro

Entirely different operating mechanisms, such casual comments erode one's integrity



Maarkhoor said:


> G3 with new cloths nothing else.

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## Army research

Horus said:


> I really wanna punch some guys here.
> 
> 1: Appreciate POF for making a decent effort.
> 
> 2: Yeah i know it not as hot as some imported pieces, but its still good. An HK, AR hybrid.
> 
> 3: PK-18 has been throughly tested in all conditions.
> 
> 4: It takes G3 mags.
> 
> 5: No restriction on export.
> 
> PS: I hate the buttstock and the finishing. They should really upgrade them.


Horus the taking G3 mag part is excellent, millions of magazines already in ordinance logistical depots won't have to be replaced driving costs down meaning much quicker replacement



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is an excellent start, and I was hoping we'd design our own rifle based on the AR platform (which works for a lot of countries and companies). If anything, I'd hope for 3 things moving forward: (1) we obviously keep improving and, maybe, look at a 5.56 mm and 7.62x39 mm variant; (2) manufacture this rifle with 100% local content; and (3) move into optics, UGBLs, etc.


To be honest quwa, for a indigenous design , especially a modular ar15 based one like this, making x39 and 5.56 variants shouldn't be that hard , 
I believe optics should be the next step so foreign customers can be offered compete packages,

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## TheDarkKnight

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 586100


The guy in the background has a badge with Pakistani flag (upper right corner) and Turkish flag (upper left corner). Is this some Turkish official or a Pakistani one working with the Turks - this probably hints at some cooperation Turkish defence industry?
@cabatli_53 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Sulman Badshah

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## Army research

TheDarkKnight said:


> The guy in the background has a badge with Pakistani flag (upper right corner) and Turkish flag (upper left corner). Is this some Turkish official or a Pakistani one working with the Turks - this probably hints at some cooperation Turkish defence industry?
> @cabatli_53 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Sulman Badshah


No no, this gun was shown just now at the a defence expo in Islamabad where Turkish and Pakistani companies showed products , so just security or ID card for the expo

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## Water Car Engineer

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 586102
> View attachment 586103
> View attachment 586104
> View attachment 586105
> View attachment 586096
> View attachment 586097
> View attachment 586098
> View attachment 586099
> View attachment 586100
> View attachment 586101



The quality looks fine, you guys got license agreement for the AK? You shouldnt let the designs go to waste.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

TheDarkKnight said:


> The guy in the background has a badge with Pakistani flag (upper right corner) and Turkish flag (upper left corner). Is this some Turkish official or a Pakistani one working with the Turks - this probably hints at some cooperation Turkish defence industry?
> @cabatli_53 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Sulman Badshah


Its a Pak Turk Defence expo. So the card would definitely have both flags.



Water Car Engineer said:


> The quality looks fine, you guys got license agreement for the AK? You shouldnt let the designs go to waste.


We produced an AK and marketed it in the past. It was produced without russian license and they threatened to sue Pakistan and thus we stop producing it. But yeah it seems they have russian license to produce them..



Water Car Engineer said:


> The quality looks fine, you guys got license agreement for the AK? You shouldnt let the designs go to waste.


Guess they went ahead with the AK103 for MP-5 & Type-56 replacement.

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188142920492290050

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## Ahmet Pasha

What about submachine gun to replace mp5, an LMG (SAW) and a bullpup variant maybe like FB radom MSBS. 

Shouldn't POF go for a family of weapons instead one stand alone system??

Also do you think the tooling machines and cnc machines we got from Eastern Europe were for this purpose??


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is an excellent start, and I was hoping we'd design our own rifle based on the AR platform (which works for a lot of countries and companies). If anything, I'd hope for 3 things moving forward: (1) we obviously keep improving and, maybe, look at a 5.56 mm and 7.62x39 mm variant; (2) manufacture this rifle with 100% local content; and (3) move into optics, UGBLs, etc.





Army research said:


> Horus the taking G3 mag part is excellent, millions of magazines already in ordinance logistical depots won't have to be replaced driving costs down meaning much quicker replacement
> 
> 
> To be honest quwa, for a indigenous design , especially a modular ar15 based one like this, making x39 and 5.56 variants shouldn't be that hard ,
> I believe optics should be the next step so foreign customers can be offered compete packages,



I remember not too long ago POF and Army delegates were visiting Bulgaria, Turkey etc to search for optics technology. Either get ToT or learn from their products and then make at home. Like this new hybrid rifle.

Quwa also did a piece on it if I'm not wrong.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> I really wanna punch some guys here.
> 
> 1: Appreciate POF for making a decent effort.
> 
> 2: Yeah i know it not as hot as some imported pieces, but its still good. An HK, AR hybrid.
> 
> 3: PK-18 has been throughly tested in all conditions.
> 
> 4: It takes G3 mags.
> 
> 5: No restriction on export.
> 
> PS: I hate the buttstock and the finishing. They should really upgrade them.


So it has passed all tests ??? Also Turkey can help us improve PK 18. And as for AK 103 why not got for AK 203


----------



## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> So it has passed all tests ??? Also Turkey can help us improve PK 18. And as for AK 103 why not got for AK 203
> View attachment 586229


Probably because Of the Indian factor in it. We have the license and capability to produce 
AK103s, which is the base gun, we can make our own variant with the changes our own military needs, as India did while creating AK203s. I have already seen Newer AKs with troops that have rails, personal attachments and such. If we can create our own variant of another rifle to replace G3. We can surely do it with an AK, and POF is probably already at it. So let’s give it time.
Both these weapons will continue to serve together. Even if the G3 is designated the standard rifle. The AK will supplement it. Same goes for the G3’s replacement and the next AK variant in line.

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Probably because Of the Indian factor in it. We have the license and capability to produce
> AK103s, which is the base gun, we can make our own variant with the changes our own military needs, as India did while creating AK203s. I have already seen Newer AKs with troops that have rails, personal attachments and such. If we can create our own variant of another rifle to replace G3. We can surely do it with an AK, and POF is probably already at it. So let’s give it time.
> Both these weapons will continue to serve together. Even if the G3 is designated the standard rifle. The AK will supplement it. Same goes for the G3’s replacement and the next AK variant in line.


Pakistan should also take Turkey's help in improving PK 18.

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should also take Turkey's help in improving PK 18.


Definitely, they make pretty good small arms. This was a joint Pakistani-Turkish weapons Expo. So maybe something will come out of it. Sometimes I do notice that our military tries to be a little too indigenous with its products. It should be alright to take the help of allied nations with weapons production. Just the ones that attach strings should be avoided.

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## Zarvan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Definitely, they make pretty good small arms. This was a joint Pakistani-Turkish weapons Expo. So maybe something will come out of it. Sometimes I do notice that our military tries to be a little too indigenous with its products. It should be alright to take the help of allied nations with weapons production. Just the ones that attach strings should be avoided.


Exactly we should take help from Turkey. They also make dam good helmets and Optics

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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Exactly we should take help from Turkey. They also make dam good helmets and Optics


Apart from special forces our military doesn’t really have any standard optics yet, and that’s understandable considering that there are bigger priorities. But once they do get to them they really need to give the private sectors in Pakistan a chance and also collaborate with foreign ones. 
Armor and helmets at least have definitely improved in the past decade for the military. They at least look like proper professional soldiers now. Room for improvement is always present.
Our military needs to catch up to what’s current before it can start developing for the future like China and USA can.

The main focus right now should be the standard weapons. Their replacement is hilariously overdue. The G3 is just not viable anymore, hence so many troops prefer the AK103s now.
Personal attachments are also becoming more common as they become easily available.
One other thing I’ve really appreciated is communication and radios, there seem to be much more of them now. Even the Regular sentries deployed in Cantonment areas are seen wearing personal radio sets. Communication matters a lot. 

all of this is evolving the forces into more modernized machine. If we are to compare that at the %age of indigenous products the forces were using 10 years ago. I’d say the progress is satisfactory if not brilliant.

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## War Thunder

AK 103 being promoted as an SMG?
Wouldn't that be more suitable in a semi assault role and we should keep MP-5's for SMG role?


----------



## gangsta_rap

War Thunder said:


> AK 103 being promoted as an SMG?
> Wouldn't that be more suitable in a semi assault role and we should keep MP-5's for SMG role?


pak army nomenclature where the type 56 is called the smg 56


----------



## Sine Nomine

The Eagle said:


> Who is even asking for favours at all. I am looking from different angle at everything that comes out. Such is the development and call it baby step or giant leap, but we moving forward. The one who use the tool, knows it well as how it works & why to be different than xyz product. When I am expecting too much form an organization then I have to look into circumstances that organization is running. A higher standard or favourite design rifle is not the issue but that is not the one requirement at hand where we have a lot of hands to be filled with other tools as well. It has already and still, going through a lot of tests.
> 
> Nobody claimed that all the services/branches will be using pk-21 AK-103 or PK-10 but there will be requirement as per current design and then the upgrades & changes comes with time. We start with less but then we aim at higher end product in our hands in the end. We had to utilize existing set-up with less headache of upgrades having our limited budget but for better product hence, such hybrid is perfect match as long as it helps to shoot as & when needed. A gas operated, rotating barrel 7.62x51 with such setup in hybrid form of top notch rifles, is a good start that I see.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

TheDarkKnight said:


> The guy in the background has a badge with Pakistani flag (upper right corner) and Turkish flag (upper left corner). Is this some Turkish official or a Pakistani one working with the Turks - this probably hints at some cooperation Turkish defence industry?
> @cabatli_53 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Sulman Badshah


These were computerized card issued to visitor and organizer of expo


----------



## SSGcommandoPAK

So will Pk-18 replace G3s? and whether it will become our primary combat rifle or just a stop gap for next 5-8 years?

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## Sine Nomine

The Accountant said:


> Why can't we design and manufacture our own next generation rifle? Can you please share specific insights? Is this that complicated a task or *we are too lazy and dont want to do any R&D*?


----------



## Super Falcon

Black Bird said:


> Sir i have a Question. When POF making these Rifles then why we are looking from outside?


These rifles are clones not a original one in war u need reliable battle hardened rifls


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Super Falcon said:


> These rifles are clones not a original one in war u need reliable battle hardened rifls


 Clones of what exactly?

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## Path-Finder

I just don't get some people and their bloody complaining. Maybe start tinkering and make something? so many inventions were made by people tinkering!!

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## Gryphon

Path-Finder said:


> I just don't get some people and their bloody complaining. Maybe start tinkering and make something? so many inventions were made by people tinkering!!



This AK-103 variant may enter local production for the armed forces, but I was hoping replacement of the G-3 would be prioritized as Type 56 has been extensively modified with all the optics and attachments available. This couldn't be implemented, for obvious reasons, on the G-3.

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## Sine Nomine

Gryphon said:


> This AK-103 variant may enter local production for the armed forces, but I was hoping replacement of the G-3 would be prioritized as Type 56 has been extensively modified with all the optics and attachments available. This couldn't be implemented, for obvious reasons, on the G-3.


I consider that a bad move over all for one of the largest standing Armies in world.We have total need of around 3 million units in different roles.
We should built a clean sheet single platform which can be chambered in cals ranging from 9mm to .308.
Idea of DI .308 has been tried in west and later abondoned.We need a single MCR which can be chambered according to needs of user.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Clones of what exactly?


AR-10.


----------



## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> This AK-103 variant may enter local production for the armed forces, but I was hoping replacement of the G-3 would be prioritized as Type 56 has been extensively modified with all the optics and attachments available. This couldn't be implemented, for obvious reasons, on the G-3.


NO CZ, No SCAR. Type56 swapped out for AK103 means literally no need to re-train as its just a lateral move. But the adoption of a AR was a surprise but the best choice without doubt. AR is without peer when it comes to mod-cons. Type56 was a purchase on emergency basis because Pakistan had 4th Gen war imposed upon it. Now is the best time to upgrade and upgrade quickly.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188419816522166272

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## Yaseen1



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## AwA.

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188419816522166272



Windi! Why another thread on the same topic?


----------



## Champion_Usmani

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188419816522166272


What are its specs, i.e range etc


----------



## Bilal.

Yaseen1 said:


>


That’s Patriot Ordinance Factory ... an American company.

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## Windjammer

AwA. said:


> Windi! Why another thread on the same topic?


Did some one already open a thread on this, can you share the link.


----------



## Path-Finder

Windjammer said:


> Did some one already open a thread on this, can you share the link.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pk-1...k-21-ak-103-and-pk-10-are-way-forward.640913/



Yaseen1 said:


>


that is patriot ordinance not Pakistan ordinance!

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## fitpOsitive

@Path-Finder @Zarvan
So can we assume that trials for service rifle replacement will also endup in something made in POF?


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## Windjammer

@The Eagle @waz 

kindly merge the thread please.

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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> @Path-Finder @Zarvan
> So can we assume that trials for service rifle replacement will also endup in something made in POF?


No FN-SCAR  my commiserations Hazrat @Zarvan

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## hussain0216

Sulman Badshah said:


> License are open mainly for Govt employees
> 
> For Public POF is offering .308 win sporter (based on G3)



Are you actually able to buy the win spotter?

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## Sulman Badshah

hussain0216 said:


> Are you actually able to buy the win spotter?


I don't have license of Win sporter .. I have license of 12 guage and 9mm


----------



## Suff Shikan

Yaseen1 said:


>


*Patriot Ordnance Factory*
- USA

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## Sulman Badshah

*BY Shameel 

List of tests and Manufacturer participated *







*COOK OFF Test *






*ACCURACY TEST 
*









*Penetration at different Range Test 






Extreme Weather Test at Hot And Cold Environment 






Interchangeability Test 






Endurance Testing 






MUD Testing 










Sand Testing 






Conclusion 






*

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## Zarvan

fitpOsitive said:


> @Path-Finder @Zarvan
> So can we assume that trials for service rifle replacement will also endup in something made in POF?


When it comes to Pakistan nothing is final.


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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> When it comes to Pakistan nothing is final.


keeping the hope alive for FN SCAR.

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## Zarvan

Path-Finder said:


> keeping the hope alive for FN SCAR.


Not for FN SCAR. But we can rejected PK 18 and may opt for some Turkish option. But now best path is going for AK-200 series and improving PK 18 with Turkey's help.

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## Sine Nomine

Sulman Badshah said:


> *BY Shameel
> 
> List of tests and Manufacturer participated *
> 
> View attachment 586305
> 
> 
> *COOK OFF Test *
> 
> View attachment 586306
> 
> 
> *ACCURACY TEST
> *
> View attachment 586307
> 
> View attachment 586309
> 
> 
> *Penetration at different Range Test
> 
> View attachment 586310
> 
> 
> Extreme Weather Test at Hot And Cold Environment
> 
> View attachment 586311
> 
> 
> Interchangeability Test
> 
> View attachment 586313
> 
> 
> Endurance Testing
> 
> View attachment 586314
> 
> 
> MUD Testing
> 
> View attachment 586315
> 
> View attachment 586317
> 
> 
> Sand Testing
> 
> View attachment 586316
> 
> 
> Conclusion
> View attachment 586318
> 
> 
> *


Seems like LSGP leads the way in robustnees while D.I and SSGP in accuracy.


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Zarvan said:


> Not for FN SCAR. But we can rejected PK 18 and may opt for some Turkish option. But now best path is going for AK-200 series and improving PK 18 with Turkey's help.


Turkish didn't performed well in trials ...

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## fitpOsitive

Zarvan said:


> When it comes to Pakistan nothing is final.


AK 103 is good, but I think 107 was better. Anyway, now I don't see anything better coming in picture.


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Turkish didn't performed well in trials ...


Still Turkey can help improve PK 18 and also develop 5.56 x 45 version of it.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Oh yeah Pak POF was gaining popularity here for the mp5 pistol so they had to make a US POF to confuse public. I don't think this is by coincidence. POF Wah should sue this company for copyright.


Suff Shikan said:


> *Patriot Ordnance Factory*
> - USA



PK18 looks alot like PWS rifles

Actually I give up these damn ARs look all the same

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Zarvan said:


> Still Turkey can help improve PK 18 and also develop 5.56 x 45 version of it.
> 
> View attachment 586334


Improve what bro? 
POF isnt an amateur company, if they developed a rifle they sure can add a few bells and whistles .

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## Water Car Engineer

This AK103 is missing it's typical muzzle break. And surely the final product will have rails, etc. It's actually kinda of funny, both Pakistan and India back end soldiers will be using AK series - AK103, AK203.

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## Hassan Guy

Ye nice but don't expect much out of it for now at least.

POF: We got some nice new rifles rolling out, will you approve it's mass production?
The Army:

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## Sine Nomine

Water Car Engineer said:


> This AK103 is missing it's typical muzzle break. And surely the final product will have rails, etc. It's actually kinda of funny, both Pakistan and India back end soldiers will be using AK series - AK103, AK203.


To me that looks likes an AKS with black furniture.




Ak-103.

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## Sulman Badshah

Sine Nomine said:


> To me that looks likes an AKS with black furniture.
> View attachment 586429
> 
> Ak-103.





Water Car Engineer said:


> This AK103 is missing it's typical muzzle break. And surely the final product will have rails, etc. It's actually kinda of funny, both Pakistan and India back end soldiers will be using AK series - AK103, AK203.


Variant which will serve armed forces will come with proper muzzle and furniture by end of next year

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## Gryphon

Sulman Badshah said:


> Variant which will serve armed forces will come with proper muzzle and furniture by end of next year



Why two different variants?

Has AK-103 been finalized as Type 56 replacement? Production to start at POF next year?


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Gryphon said:


> Why two different variants?
> 
> Has AK-103 been finalized as Type 56 replacement? Production to start at POF next year?


The way i heard is that There are some Machinery upgrades going on .. Moreover 2 variants were needed (one will be short barrel and the other one will standard)

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## Ahmet Pasha

Exactly POF was getting new CNC and tooling equipment from eastern europe


Sulman Badshah said:


> The way i heard is that There are some Machinery upgrades going on .. Moreover 2 variants were needed (one will be short barrel and the other one will standard)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> Ye nice but don't expect much out of it for now at least.
> 
> POF: We got some nice new rifles rolling out, will you approve it's mass production?
> The Army:
> View attachment 586427


this went too real way too quick

@Sulman Badshah You were at the event, right?

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## Sulman Badshah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> this went too real way too quick
> 
> @Sulman Badshah You were at the event, right?


I was out of town .. so my brother attended the even and took pictures

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## Gryphon

@Path-Finder

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

Remember this article? The author details the poor performance of PWS MK-1, an AR-based rifle with piston operating system, in the Pakistan Army trials.

This is what he wrote at the end:

_The AR10-type weapon is inherently accurate especially when compared to other service rifles, but the design leaves it very susceptible to dirt and debris. Adding a piston system to the AR15/10/M4/M16 does not improve the reliability of the system in harsh environments due to design limitations. Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty._


So, what is the fuss regarding PK-18 using DI all about?

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## The Eagle

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Improve what bro?
> POF isnt an amateur company, if they developed a rifle they sure can add a few bells and whistles .

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## Sine Nomine

Gryphon said:


> So, what is the fuss regarding PK-18 using DI all about


Same fuss,D.I system have tendency of having rapid carbon builtup and heating up issue during fire.On top of that type of ammo effects them,since gas is directly vented into system.
If you look around,you won't see any large scale deployment of D.I guns in .308 Win.
We have a harsh environment, a simple clean sheet long stroke gas piston design would have suited us very well.

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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> Variant which will serve armed forces will come with proper muzzle and furniture by end of next year


So basically during IDEAS next year we can expect the big announcement


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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> @Path-Finder
> 
> http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/
> 
> Remember this article? The author details the poor performance of PWS MK-1, an AR-based rifle with piston operating system, in the Pakistan Army trials.
> 
> This is what he wrote at the end:
> 
> _The AR10-type weapon is inherently accurate especially when compared to other service rifles, but the design leaves it very susceptible to dirt and debris. Adding a piston system to the AR15/10/M4/M16 does not improve the reliability of the system in harsh environments due to design limitations. Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty._
> 
> 
> So, what is the fuss regarding PK-18 using DI all about?


The trial was done over a year and no stone was left unturned, clearly all the vendors had to see their product endure extreme levels of punishment. I remember this article and clearly what the author says is what we are seeing! AR platform for 7.62x51 means accurate targeting as its 20 round per magazine and for distance. But for for heavier use on a daily basis you cannot go wrong with a workhorse like AK.

As for the people complaining well can't please everyone.

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## Black Bird

Super Falcon said:


> These rifles are clones not a original one in war u need reliable battle hardened rifls


Then why we are wasting our money and time to make them. I think there is no difference between karkhanu market and POF as both are making clones. We need a big No of Rifles for our forces so should make something better.

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## Sine Nomine

PK-18 pretty much works same.

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## Sunny4pak

*Pakistan Armed Forces Guns Replacement?*


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## ziaulislam

Black Bird said:


> Then why we are wasting our money and time to make them. I think there is no difference between karkhanu market and POF as both are making clones. We need a big No of Rifles for our forces so should make something better.


kharkhanu people are very skilled, new innovative guns alot of times started up by amateur builders...POF job is to effectively mass produce a cheap gun..it doesnt matter where it comes from, whtehr its copy or not as long as its top class weapon and built cheaper


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## Zarvan

Sulman Badshah said:


> It is GAS Operated and Rotating bolt
> 
> G3 is Roller Delayed Blowback
> 
> (some similarity in design are there) but it is not same rifle
> 
> Moreover Rifle weight is 3.8 kg which is well below than EU rifle


Also it seem the magazine in pictures are different

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## Thorough Pro

The answer to the most frequently asked stupid question "why not go for xyz?", is a question itself 
why should we go for xyz?
Who says xyz is good? or
Meets our requirements? or
Is affordable? or
Aligns with our self-sufficiency objectives?

Because you read its name somewhere or watched a youtube video made by some self-proclaimed internet expert after shooting 200 rounds through it? 

In this specific case, what was the basis of your suggestion for AK203?
Because its a new model?
Because "203" is supposedly bigger hence better than "103"?
Or perhaps you think you watched that youtube before anybody else?

I really want to understand the demented mindset of internet warriors who keep suggesting some 20 different things in 20 different threads in a single day. They think they are such big experts that they can suggest battleships in one thread to nuclear subs in the other, to jet fighters to attack helos to artillery to tanks to guns to AAM to AGM to SAM and everything else not mentioned here.

and when you say, "why not go for?" who the heck are you asking? other internet warriors like yourself or do you seriously think that COA reads this forum to get expert advice and suggestions from here?

I am all for healthy debate, but if you think like something and think that might be good for the defence forces, then make your case with facts and why you think, what you think.






Zarvan said:


> So it has passed all tests ??? Also Turkey can help us improve PK 18. And as for AK 103 why not got for AK 203
> View attachment 586229

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> The answer to the most frequently asked stupid question "why not go for xyz?", is a question itself
> why should we go for xyz?
> Who says xyz is good? or
> Meets our requirements? or
> Is affordable? or
> Aligns with our self-sufficiency objectives?
> 
> Because you read its name somewhere or watched a youtube video made by some self-proclaimed internet expert after shooting 200 rounds through it?
> 
> In this specific case, what was the basis of your suggestion for AK203?
> Because its a new model?
> Because "203" is supposedly bigger hence better than "103"?
> Or perhaps you think you watched that youtube before anybody else?
> 
> I really want to understand the demented mindset of internet warriors who keep suggesting some 20 different things in 20 different threads in a single day. They think they are such big experts that they can suggest battleships in one thread to nuclear subs in the other, to jet fighters to attack helos to artillery to tanks to guns to AAM to AGM to SAM and everything else not mentioned here.
> 
> and when you say, "why not go for?" who the heck are you asking? other internet warriors like yourself or do you seriously think that COA reads this forum to get expert advice and suggestions from here?
> 
> I am all for healthy debate, but if you think like something and think that might be good for the defence forces, then make your case with facts and why you think, what you think.



AK-203 is better. It's more compact plus it has pica-tinny rail rail better muzzle and lot of other changes. And you want to bet with me that in a year or even in few months they would be turning this AK-103 into pretty much similar to something AK-203. How much you want to be ????














You already have made these changes in Type 56. So it makes no sense going for AK-103 with AK-203 already is there with same changes even better. @Thorough Pro








Thorough Pro said:


> The answer to the most frequently asked stupid question "why not go for xyz?", is a question itself
> why should we go for xyz?
> Who says xyz is good? or
> Meets our requirements? or
> Is affordable? or
> Aligns with our self-sufficiency objectives?
> 
> Because you read its name somewhere or watched a youtube video made by some self-proclaimed internet expert after shooting 200 rounds through it?
> 
> In this specific case, what was the basis of your suggestion for AK203?
> Because its a new model?
> Because "203" is supposedly bigger hence better than "103"?
> Or perhaps you think you watched that youtube before anybody else?
> 
> I really want to understand the demented mindset of internet warriors who keep suggesting some 20 different things in 20 different threads in a single day. They think they are such big experts that they can suggest battleships in one thread to nuclear subs in the other, to jet fighters to attack helos to artillery to tanks to guns to AAM to AGM to SAM and everything else not mentioned here.
> 
> and when you say, "why not go for?" who the heck are you asking? other internet warriors like yourself or do you seriously think that COA reads this forum to get expert advice and suggestions from here?
> 
> I am all for healthy debate, but if you think like something and think that might be good for the defence forces, then make your case with facts and why you think, what you think.



The suggestions made by this so called internet warrior are the ones which are done by Armed Forces around the world. You are not special that you don't need those things.

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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> AK-203 is better. It's more compact plus it has pica-tinny rail rail better muzzle and lot of other changes. And you want to bet with me that in a year or even in few months they would be turning this AK-103 into pretty much similar to something AK-203. How much you want to be ????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You already have made these changes in Type 56. So it makes no sense going for AK-103 with AK-203 already is there with same changes even better. @Thorough Pro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The suggestions made by this so called internet warrior are the ones which are done by Armed Forces around the world. You are not special that you don't need those things.


I can attach picatinny rails to my Enfield No5 'jungle carbine ', replace wood with moulded camo polymer furniture , add bipod ,laser, add a 50000$ predicting x32 scope ,

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Whether an AK-103 clone or licensed AK-103, I think the idea behind the PK21 is to equip LEAs, FC, Rangers, etc, with a durable and easy-to-use rifle. Heck, I think most of the regulars will end up with the PK21 as well, while SOFs and LCBs switch over to the PK18 (in lieu of imported M4s).

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Whether an AK-103 clone or licensed AK-103, I think the idea behind the PK21 is to equip LEAs, FC, Rangers, etc, with a durable and easy-to-use rifle. Heck, I think most of the regulars will end up with the PK21 as well, while SOFs and LCBs switch over to the PK18 (in lieu of imported M4s).


I think it's license thing not clone

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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> I think it's license thing not clone


just to add to your post: Kalashnikov Concern Concludes Cooperation Agreement with Pakistan

but the question is, it was related to civilian small arm and no other report is available which indicates licence agreement for AK-103 ....

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## Thorough Pro

Zarvan said:


> AK-203 is better.



Better in what way? Is it shorter? lighter? more accurate? more reliable? more durable, higher rate of fire? longer sustained fire? longer effective range? easier to carry? easier to deploy? easier to maneuver? easier to handle? easier to operate? easier to maintain? cheaper to buy? cheaper to maintain? higher resistance to jamming? higher resistance to corrosion? What are your criteria for saying it is better? and in comparison to what? 

Who is the judge? who is saying it is better? you? The internet expert? or the end-user?

If you are saying it on behalf of the end-user, then who is the end-user? PA, PN, or PAF?
If PA, then which branch? for what specific role?

Answer these logically then I'll come to the second sentence of your post.

By the way, I don't bet on anything that is not in my control, besides if I did, I would still be waiting for my winnings on Eurofighters, SU35's, FN Scar's and a hundred other things.





Zarvan said:


> It's more compact plus it has pica-tinny rail rail better muzzle and lot of other changes. And you want to bet with me that in a year or even in few months they would be turning this AK-103 into pretty much similar to something AK-203. How much you want to be ????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You already have made these changes in Type 56. So it makes no sense going for AK-103 with AK-203 already is there with same changes even better. @Thorough Pro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The suggestions made by this so called internet warrior are the ones which are done by Armed Forces around the world. You are not special that you don't need those things.



These are called "Attachments" not changes, just like wearing a shoe does not mean you changed your feet.



Zarvan said:


> You already have made these changes in Type 56. So it makes no sense going for AK-103 with AK-203 already is there with same changes even better. @Thorough Pro

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## Ahmet Pasha

PK21 to me looks like a regular type 56 that has bony metal stock.

Can you highlight the differences??


Thorough Pro said:


> Better in what way? Is it shorter? lighter? more accurate? more reliable? more durable, higher rate of fire? longer sustained fire? longer effective range? easier to carry? easier to deploy? easier to maneuver? easier to handle? easier to operate? easier to maintain? cheaper to buy? cheaper to maintain? higher resistance to jamming? higher resistance to corrosion? What are your criteria for saying it is better? and in comparison to what?
> 
> Who is the judge? who is saying it is better? you? The internet expert? or the end-user?
> 
> If you are saying it on behalf of the end-user, then who is the end-user? PA, PN, or PAF?
> If PA, then which branch? for what specific role?
> 
> Answer these logically then I'll come to the second sentence of your post.
> 
> By the way, I don't bet on anything that is not in my control, besides if I did, I would still be waiting for my winnings on Eurofighters, SU35's, FN Scar's and a hundred other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are called "Attachments" not changes, just like wearing a shoe does not mean you changed your feet.

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## Thorough Pro

I don't have any info on the weapon to give an opinion



Ahmet Pasha said:


> PK21 to me looks like a regular type 56 that has bony metal stock.
> 
> Can you highlight the differences??

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> PK21 to me looks like a regular type 56 that has bony metal stock.
> 
> Can you highlight the differences??


I'd give it more credit than that. Compared to the AK-103, it looks identical.

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## Ahmet Pasha

The stock confuses me. If it's really AK103 why didn't they change the type 56 bony metal stock??

Front part does look like Ak103 tho.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd give it more credit than that. Compared to the AK-103, it looks identical.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> The stock confuses me. If it's really AK103 why didn't they change the type 56 bony metal stock??
> 
> Front part does look like Ak103 tho.


Likely to position it as a SMG-like solution. Reduce the length/'wieldiness' or weight without shortening the barrel, basically. I'm sure a proper stock could be made available if asked upon, not a big deal to add.

@Foxtrot Alpha 

Is it our fault that POF didn't get the CZ or SCAR? Lol!






https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-347#post-9956961

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Better in what way? Is it shorter? lighter? more accurate? more reliable? more durable, higher rate of fire? longer sustained fire? longer effective range? easier to carry? easier to deploy? easier to maneuver? easier to handle? easier to operate? easier to maintain? cheaper to buy? cheaper to maintain? higher resistance to jamming? higher resistance to corrosion? What are your criteria for saying it is better? and in comparison to what?
> 
> Who is the judge? who is saying it is better? you? The internet expert? or the end-user?
> 
> If you are saying it on behalf of the end-user, then who is the end-user? PA, PN, or PAF?
> If PA, then which branch? for what specific role?
> 
> Answer these logically then I'll come to the second sentence of your post.
> 
> By the way, I don't bet on anything that is not in my control, besides if I did, I would still be waiting for my winnings on Eurofighters, SU35's, FN Scar's and a hundred other things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are called "Attachments" not changes, just like wearing a shoe does not mean you changed your feet.


Yes most of the things you mentioned. It has better rate of fire plus better accuracy better ergonomics along with pictanni rail and other things which you are going to add sooner or a little later. But don't believe and soon when either on their own or buying directly from Russia I mean AK-203. All the improvements which have been made AK-203 will be soon be made in AK-103 which we are buying.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ak also came out with a .308/7.62x51 rifle which is interesting.


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## Thorough Pro

Caliber is the same? really? you are just digging the hole deeper



Maarkhoor said:


> Design, barrel, trigger mech and caliber is same as G3 so only difference is bolt....


----------



## gangsta_rap

Thorough Pro said:


> Caliber is the same? really? you are just digging the hole deeper


I made the same mistake, thought that the AK103 used NATO 7.62 since its an export rifle
Had too look the caliber up....


----------



## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Likely to position it as a SMG-like solution. Reduce the length/'wieldiness' or weight without shortening the barrel, basically. I'm sure a proper stock could be made available if asked upon, not a big deal to add.
> 
> @Foxtrot Alpha
> 
> Is it our fault that POF didn't get the CZ or SCAR? Lol!
> 
> View attachment 586840
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-347#post-9956961


----------



## Gryphon

@HRK @Path-Finder @Starlord @waz @Khafee @The Eagle @Horus @Signalian @Inception-06 @TF141 @Reichsmarschall 

Three days back, I asked a guy with first-hand knowledge of the rifle program about the PK-21 - whether it was an AK-103 variant with manufacturing rights acquired by POF.

In response, he said that the PK-21 isn't an AK-103 variant at all, its a [POF] copy of the AKMS assault rifle.

I inquired more, but the response is being withheld for an appropriate time.

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## Sine Nomine

Gryphon said:


> @HRK @Path-Finder @Starlord @waz @Khafee @The Eagle @Horus @Signalian @Inception-06 @TF141 @Reichsmarschall
> 
> Three days back, I asked a guy with first-hand knowledge of the rifle program about the PK-21 - whether it was an AK-103 variant with manufacturing rights acquired by POF.
> 
> In response, he said that the PK-21 isn't an AK-103 variant at all, its a [POF] copy of the AKMS assault rifle.
> 
> I inquired more, but the response is being withheld for an appropriate time.


It's a good rifle.


----------



## Signalian

Gryphon said:


> @HRK @Path-Finder @Starlord @waz @Khafee @The Eagle @Horus @Signalian @Inception-06 @TF141 @Reichsmarschall
> 
> Three days back, I asked a guy with first-hand knowledge of the rifle program about the PK-21 - whether it was an AK-103 variant with manufacturing rights acquired by POF.
> 
> In response, he said that the PK-21 isn't an AK-103 variant at all, its a [POF] copy of the AKMS assault rifle.
> 
> I inquired more, but the response is being withheld for an appropriate time.


G-3 is here to stay

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## Zarvan

Signalian said:


> G-3 is here to stay


I doubt it. The PK 18 is totally new rifle even magazine are new. We are ready to get rid of G3 if not foreign than this local new Rifle would come but something will replace G3.


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> I doubt it. The PK 18 is totally new rifle even magazine are new. We are ready to get rid of G3 if not foreign than this local new Rifle would come but something will replace G3.


Pk18 maybe new, G-3 is staying.

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## Path-Finder

Gryphon said:


> @HRK @Path-Finder @Starlord @waz @Khafee @The Eagle @Horus @Signalian @Inception-06 @TF141 @Reichsmarschall
> 
> Three days back, I asked a guy with first-hand knowledge of the rifle program about the PK-21 - whether it was an AK-103 variant with manufacturing rights acquired by POF.
> 
> In response, he said that the PK-21 isn't an AK-103 variant at all, its a [POF] copy of the AKMS assault rifle.
> 
> I inquired more, but the response is being withheld for an appropriate time.


a new twist in the story.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I can't see the average jawan ditch their G-3s for at least another 15-20 years. If the PA intends to phase in the PK18, it'd do it slowly with new recruits first and let it gradually phase out the G-3 (with the G-3 leaving as people retire). Near term, the PK18 is probably going to SOFs and LCBs.

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## Gryphon

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Near term, the PK18 is probably going to SOFs and LCBs.



I don't know where that came from but one thing is clear - SOFs/LCBs aren't moving to a 7.62 NATO battle rifle when the shift towards M4 and AK variants has already occured.



Path-Finder said:


> a new twist in the story.



Looking at how POF copied the AKMS & for some reasons put AK-103 tag on it, I won't be surprised if the PK-18 turns out to be a 100% copy of an AR-type rifle sold by a low-key Western manufacturer.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Our SOFs prefer to fight light and agile from what I've seen instead of packing on tons of stuff like US or EU SOF guys. So maybe that's why they like 556 and russian 762


Gryphon said:


> I don't know where that came from but one thing is clear - SOFs/LCBs aren't moving to a 7.62 NATO battle rifle when the shift towards M4 and AK variants has already occured.


----------



## YeBeWarned

Signalian said:


> Pk18 maybe new, G-3 is staying.



G3's can be transferred to our Local police and LEA's .. PK-18 seems like a average effort to minimize the cost of locally produce a standard rifle like SCAR .



Gryphon said:


> @HRK @Path-Finder @Starlord @waz @Khafee @The Eagle @Horus @Signalian @Inception-06 @TF141 @Reichsmarschall
> 
> Three days back, I asked a guy with first-hand knowledge of the rifle program about the PK-21 - whether it was an AK-103 variant with manufacturing rights acquired by POF.
> 
> In response, he said that the PK-21 isn't an AK-103 variant at all, its a [POF] copy of the AKMS assault rifle.
> 
> I inquired more, but the response is being withheld for an appropriate time.



It remind me of the time when i went for the interview at Arms and ammo depo in Karachi , while i was waiting for the Kernel shahab to finish his lunch and Namaz , there were some Major ranked officers waiting for day briefing, I was talking to them about so many G3's been carried around , all in all his response on g3 was satisfactory but the major said when it comes to battles his weapon of choice would be AK .

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## Sine Nomine

Gryphon said:


> PK-18 turns out to be a 100% copy of an AR-type rifle sold by a low-key Western manufacturer.


It is copy of AR-10 rifle,taking H&K G3 Mags.











Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I can't see the average jawan ditch their G-3s for at least another 15-20 years. If the PA intends to phase in the PK18, it'd do it slowly with new recruits first and let it gradually phase out the G-3 (with the G-3 leaving as people retire). Near term, the PK18 is probably going to SOFs and LCBs.


PA has failed to find subsitute for it simply.Newer weapons have hight cost but they don't bring anything new to table,except for fancy rails and optics.

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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> Pk18 maybe new, G-3 is staying.



Yes G-3 will stay, of course, it has is own role in the section level!



Zarvan said:


> I doubt it. The PK 18 is totally new rifle even magazine are new. We are ready to get rid of G3 if not foreign than this local new Rifle would come but something will replace G3.



It's not about new or old, it's about training, numbers, tactical role, infrastructure the same why MG-3 cant be replaced!

In a section level of 10-15 men every Soldier has his own role with a specific weapon/rifle, like I explained thousand times in the past, one is gunner with MG-3, one is a sniper with Steyer, one is the better shooter on long distance with G-3, the other takes everything down which is close under 200 metres with AK or Type-59, the youngest or the Captain will play the leading from the front role with PK-18.....

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## The Terminator

Considering PK 18 is a good step forward but the Direct Impingement system fouls that all. Even the pioneer of that D.I system are transitioning away from that to short stroke gas piston systems such as FN SCAR and HK416 which are probably the most favorite rifles in the western world. IMHO PK18 is a very good copy of AR-15/M-4 platform just swap its upper receiver and you may probably get a much reliable and one of the best rifles in the world, comparable to FN SCAR/HK416/HK-417 etc. And also make it multi caliber platform with variants of short, standard and long DMR barrels and lightweight machine gun variant too.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/introducing-armys-new-m5-rifle-or-what-it-should-look-39197

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## YeBeWarned

Inception-06 said:


> Yes G-3 will stay, of course, it has is own role in the section level!
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about new or old, it's about training, numbers, tactical role, infrastructure the same why MG-3 cant be replaced!
> 
> In a section level of 10-15 men every Soldier has his own role with a specific weapon/rifle, like I explained thousand times in the past, one is gunner with MG-3, one is a sniper with Steyer, one is the better shooter on long distance with G-3, the other takes everything down which is close under 200 metres with AK or Type-59, the youngest or the Captain will play the leading from the front role with PK-18.....



Type 59 Chinese clone did wonders in FATA operations , it worked for SSG when they move in teams against a target, some of them carry type 59's and some M4A1's alone with of course sniper and LMG's .

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## merzifonlu

Direct Impingement System for PK 18? Not a wise decision.


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## Sunny4pak

Sine Nomine said:


> It is copy of AR-10 rifle,taking H&K G3 Mags.
> View attachment 586915
> View attachment 586916
> 
> 
> 
> *PA has failed to find subsitute for it simply.Newer weapons have hight cost but they don't bring anything new to table,except for fancy rails and optics*.



Thoroughly Agreed with you Sir.

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## fitpOsitive

If AK-103 is confirmed, than choosing AK-103 seems a good decision from many many aspects(these are just my thoughts, don't call me names for that ). But I am wondering why not AK-107 or later guns were no chosen? I mean these rifles are more "balanced" and give better balancing(barrel movement, Mussel rise, recoil etc).. And Its the same AK series and the provider is also the same country.
Any thoughts @Path-Finder @Starlord @Zarvan


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## Path-Finder

fitpOsitive said:


> If AK-103 is confirmed, than choosing AK-103 seems a good decision from many many aspects(these are just my thoughts, don't call me names for that ). But I am wondering why not AK-107 or later guns were no chosen? I mean these rifles are more "balanced" and give better balancing(barrel movement, Mussel rise, recoil etc).. And Its the same AK series and the provider is also the same country.
> Any thoughts @Path-Finder @Starlord @Zarvan


refer to post 168.

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## Zarvan

fitpOsitive said:


> If AK-103 is confirmed, than choosing AK-103 seems a good decision from many many aspects(these are just my thoughts, don't call me names for that ). But I am wondering why not AK-107 or later guns were no chosen? I mean these rifles are more "balanced" and give better balancing(barrel movement, Mussel rise, recoil etc).. And Its the same AK series and the provider is also the same country.
> Any thoughts @Path-Finder @Starlord @Zarvan


If we are going forward with AK 103 than in my opinion we should not instead we should go for the upgraded version which India also has selected called AK-203. Also we should produce AK-200 series not just AK 203. AK 200 series include 5.56 x 45 caliber version also.











Also in case of PK 18 if it passes all tests we should also produce 5.56 X 45 version of it.

@Path-Finder

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## Path-Finder

Zarvan said:


> If we are going forward with AK 103 than in my opinion we should not instead we should go for the upgraded version which India also has selected called AK-203. Also we should produce AK-200 series not just AK 203. AK 200 series include 5.56 x 45 caliber version also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also in case of PK 18 if it passes all tests we should also produce 5.56 X 45 version of it.
> 
> @Path-Finder


mufakir other than the rail, stock and grip on the 203 there is no major change. its internals which matter the most is exactly the same as AK-47! unless a major improvement is made which is not necessary because it works so well. so Hazrat @Zarvan 203 just has modern furnishing but its performance is not ahead of Ak103!

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## YeBeWarned

fitpOsitive said:


> If AK-103 is confirmed, than choosing AK-103 seems a good decision from many many aspects(these are just my thoughts, don't call me names for that ). But I am wondering why not AK-107 or later guns were no chosen? I mean these rifles are more "balanced" and give better balancing(barrel movement, Mussel rise, recoil etc).. And Its the same AK series and the provider is also the same country.
> Any thoughts @Path-Finder @Starlord @Zarvan



the details will be kept under strict covers, until next year Ideas for what i see .. if @Gryphon is right with his source than it might be a upgraded version of AK-103 which will be built on the specification for PA, it doesn't matter if the model is new or old but what matter is how it perform under harsh conditions of Pakistan . we have type 56 and AK and G3 old models and still working perfect .

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## khanasifm

Starlord said:


> Type 59 Chinese clone did wonders in FATA operations , it worked for SSG when they move in teams against a target, some of them carry type 59's and some M4A1's alone with of course sniper and LMG's .



You mean type 56 ? type 59 is mbt unless you were referring to mbt


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## bananarepublic

Path-Finder said:


> mufakir other than the rail, stock and grip on the 203 there is no major change. its internals which matter the most is exactly the same as AK-47! unless a major improvement is made which is not necessary because it works so well. so Hazrat @Zarvan 203 just has modern furnishing but its performance is not ahead of Ak103!



Internals of AK-47 along with AKM differ considerably to AK-103/AK-12 etc
While the AK-103 is the baseline version on which all major russian AK variants are built..
Considering the movement of major western small arms procurement is towards short stroke gas piston system , we should also look into it.

I believe the newly introduced Chinese rifle also uses the same system... Not confirmed though.


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## Path-Finder

bananarepublic said:


> Internals of AK-47 along with AKM differ considerably to AK-103/AK-12 etc


how?


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## Sine Nomine

bananarepublic said:


> Internals of AK-47 along with AKM differ considerably to AK-103/AK-12 etc
> While the AK-103 is the baseline version on which all major russian AK variants are built..
> Considering the movement of major western small arms procurement is towards short stroke gas piston system , we should also look into it.
> 
> I believe the newly introduced Chinese rifle also uses the same system... Not confirmed though.


All AK varients are internally same,Rotating bolt 2 lugs and LSGP,except for minor changes and often difference in manufacturing tech there is no change.Only Ak-107 is changed which employs "balanced" operating system for better control.
SSGP has been around since early 20th century.It saw widespread use in form of SVT-40,M-1 carbine and SKS during ww2.

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## Zapper

Zarvan said:


> If we are going forward with AK 103 than in my opinion we should not instead we should go for the upgraded version which India also has selected called AK-203. Also we should produce AK-200 series not just AK 203. AK 200 series include 5.56 x 45 caliber version also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also in case of PK 18 if it passes all tests we should also produce 5.56 X 45 version of it.
> 
> @Path-Finder


Have y'all considered the AK-15 which is still better than both AK-103/203 even though slightly expensive. It is the latest in terms of ground up development at Kalashnikov.

AK 15 

Has better improved trigger.
Has better free floating hand guard.
Has better iron sights ,rear aperture with windage adjustment and front sight placed on the gas block.
Has better fixed gas tube,which removes the wobble on upper hand guard rail and can be cleaned easily by removal of a plug in front.
Has better muzzle brake,which helps to keep the rifle more stable while shooting.
Has two round burst mode.
Another important point why AK 15 make more sense is because AK 12 and AK 15 have been adopted by Russian army,so they will probably see constant upgrade throughout their life cycle. For your information development work for new ambidextrous selector lever,new improved sights,new stock and handguard is already underway at Kalashnikov for these rifles,which will materialize on the new batches of these rifle,once the development is completed and would have at-least the option of implementing the development carried out by Kalashnikov in future. So in simple terms AK 12/AK 15 seem to be having better product support and development cycle than the AK 203

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## YeBeWarned

khanasifm said:


> You mean type 56 ? type 59 is mbt unless you were referring to mbt



yes type 56 , sorry ..


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> Horus the taking G3 mag part is excellent, millions of magazines already in ordinance logistical depots won't have to be replaced driving costs down meaning much quicker replacement
> 
> 
> To be honest quwa, for a indigenous design , especially a modular ar15 based one like this, making x39 and 5.56 variants shouldn't be that hard ,
> I believe optics should be the next step so foreign customers can be offered compete packages,


In thinking about the DI system, do you think the Army will tell POF to make a new version with a short-stroke piston system? It doesn't look like the Army is in a rush to induct these, so POF can step back and keep working on the PK18?

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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> Horus the taking G3 mag part is excellent, millions of magazines already in ordinance logistical depots won't have to be replaced driving costs down meaning much quicker replacement
> 
> 
> To be honest quwa, for a indigenous design , especially a modular ar15 based one like this, making x39 and 5.56 variants shouldn't be that hard ,
> I believe optics should be the next step so foreign customers can be offered compete packages,



The Gun which was displayed during the expo sorry I have serious doubts it can have G3 Magazine. The Magazine it had is totally different from the ones G3 has. 

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In thinking about the DI system, do you think the Army will tell POF to make a new version with a short-stroke piston system? It doesn't look like the Army is in a rush to induct these, so POF can step back and keep working on the PK18?


Probably , but if this itself can pass the tests then why bother ( army way of thinking )?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Army research said:


> Probably , but if this itself can pass the tests then why bother ( army way of thinking )?


The way I see it, the Army can easily come up with an excuse to defer the induction of the PK18 (at least at scale), so POF can go back to the drawing board. It wouldn't be the first time the Army holds off on inducting something, we have ample examples, e.g., PK08, rifle RFI, etc.

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## Barmaley

Sulman Badshah said:


> View attachment 586101



This is not an AK-103 - it's AKMS. I think, they placed this rifle, because Pakistan don't have an actual AK-103 yet to show.

And i think, both indian and pakistan ak-103 will be similar to each other. The negotiation for contract ongoing since 2016, as far i know.

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## SecularNationalist

POF 10 is a beretta 9mm clone. Nothing new nothing special.
Whats the price?


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## Sulman Badshah

Barmaley said:


> This is not an AK-103 - it's AKMS. I think, they placed this rifle, because Pakistan don't have an actual AK-103 yet to show.
> 
> And i think, both indian and pakistan ak-103 will be similar to each other. The negotiation for contract ongoing since 2016, as far i know.


AK103 actual variants will come up by end of next year ...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SecularNationalist said:


> POF 10 is a beretta 9mm clone. Nothing new nothing special.
> Whats the price?


Bro let's hope it's at least a clone and not a repackaged import! I'm still not sure if we're sourcing the majority of the materials necessary to manufacture these firearms locally (yet). In fact, weren't we importing quite a few parts and materials for the LSR? @Army research @PAR 5

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> AK-203 is better. It's more compact plus it has pica-tinny rail rail better muzzle and lot of other changes. And you want to bet with me that in a year or even in few months they would be turning this AK-103 into pretty much similar to something AK-203. How much you want to be ????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You already have made these changes in Type 56. So it makes no sense going for AK-103 with AK-203 already is there with same changes even better. @Thorough Pro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The suggestions made by this so called internet warrior are the ones which are done by Armed Forces around the world. You are not special that you don't need those things.


just to let you and others know, the variant developed by POF is NOT AK103....they may call it 103 but it is not, it is just clone of AKM.....

AK103 comes with 90degree Gas block tube where as AKM / Type 56, comes with 45degree gas block tube....below picture for understanding










Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Likely to position it as a SMG-like solution. Reduce the length/'wieldiness' or weight without shortening the barrel, basically. I'm sure a proper stock could be made available if asked upon, not a big deal to add.
> 
> @Foxtrot Alpha
> 
> Is it our fault that POF didn't get the CZ or SCAR? Lol!
> 
> View attachment 586840
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-347#post-9956961


Changing stock from Underfolder to Sidefolding is a bumer, it requires different rear trinion.....whatever decide to do, it will have to be done during manufacturing process so required parts can be swapped out.....thing with 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 is that their accuracy is not much effected by shorter barrel unlike 5.56 which gets effected due to loss of velocity

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## baloch_veteran

I don't think it'll survive through all mud,sand and temperature reliability tests.


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## Amaa'n

if POF really wants PA to adopt their weapons then they need to come out of their 1000 yrs old outdated mentality. They need to get creative and cut the bullcrap.
AK is a rough and tough toy and they need to make it fit the needs of units in field.
We need something along these lines which is practical and eyecandy.....it will surely turn some heads at PA to look and explore

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## PAR 5

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro let's hope it's at least a clone and not a repackaged import! I'm still not sure if we're sourcing the majority of the materials necessary to manufacture these firearms locally (yet). In fact, weren't we importing quite a few parts and materials for the LSR? @Army research @PAR 5



The PK10 is a full Beretta 92FS clone made by the experienced gunsmiths of Darra Adam Khel under direct supervision of POF. I’m a Beretta man and have the original piece made in Italy. I’ve fired the Darra made Beretta and have held and played with POF made Beretta as well. It’s a good copy

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## Sine Nomine

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> if POF really wants PA to adopt their weapons then they need to come out of their 1000 yrs old outdated mentality. They need to get creative and cut the bullcrap.
> AK is a rough and tough toy and they need to make it fit the needs of units in field.
> We need something along these lines which is practical and eyecandy.....it will surely turn some heads at PA to look and explore


Bahi apni khidmat in ko pesh kar dou.
P.S:-Is baar un ko credit dou kai G-3 Ko ouper nechey karney kai bajaye,AR-10 ko copy kiya hai.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> The Gun which was displayed during the expo sorry I have serious doubts it can have G3 Magazine. The Magazine it had is totally different from the ones G3 has.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Mag well on the AR Lower can be customized to accept G3 mags. that is why HK417 can take the G3 magines because magwell is milled accordingly

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## YeBeWarned

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> Mag well on the AR Lower can be customized to accept G3 mags. that is why HK417 can take the G3 magines because magwell is milled accordingly



bhai aap kahan hai , aap ke post ka kab se wait ho raha tha is thread per


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## Amaa'n

Starlord said:


> bhai aap kahan hai , aap ke post ka kab se wait ho raha tha is thread per


I was busy with some other stuff....seeking mercy from HIM

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro let's hope it's at least a clone and not a repackaged import! I'm still not sure if we're sourcing the majority of the materials necessary to manufacture these firearms locally (yet). In fact, weren't we importing quite a few parts and materials for the LSR? @Army research @PAR 5


The barrel for the LSR yet it was stated the future aim is to build the barrel locally too , 
Recently a lot of MOU have been signed especially for manufacturing machinery,


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Army research said:


> The barrel for the LSR yet it was stated the future aim is to build the barrel locally too ,
> Recently a lot of MOU have been signed especially for manufacturing machinery,


 Not the barrel but furniture, from what we have read is based on surgeon.

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## SecularNationalist

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro let's hope it's at least a clone and not a repackaged import! I'm still not sure if we're sourcing the majority of the materials necessary to manufacture these firearms locally (yet). In fact, weren't we importing quite a few parts and materials for the LSR? @Army research @PAR 5


I am expecting something indigenous from a company POF which has all the resources and expertise. Even darra Adam khel tribals make clones ,we should expect something big and better from POF. POF is no joke.

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## YeBeWarned

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> I was busy with some other stuff....seeking mercy from HIM



I hope you get what seek bhai, good to have you back


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## Zarvan

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> just to let you and others know, the variant developed by POF is NOT AK103....they may call it 103 but it is not, it is just clone of AKM.....
> 
> AK103 comes with 90degree Gas block tube where as AKM / Type 56, comes with 45degree gas block tube....below picture for understanding
> View attachment 587626
> View attachment 587627
> 
> 
> 
> Changing stock from Underfolder to Sidefolding is a bumer, it requires different rear trinion.....whatever decide to do, it will have to be done during manufacturing process so required parts can be swapped out.....thing with 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 is that their accuracy is not much effected by shorter barrel unlike 5.56 which gets effected due to loss of velocity


Pakistan is improving its relations with Russia and producing some version or a copy of AK without their permission would be a disaster. I think we have reached the deal with them for producing AK-103 in Pakistan and that is why AK-103 was also written and most likely we may hear the final announcement during IDEAS next year. And I think eventually it would be AK-203 which would be produced.


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## pzfz

neither is the AK style rifle an AK103, the PK 18's mag also looks to be a 5.56x45 one. mislabeling happening.



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan is improving its relations with Russia and producing some version or a copy of AK without their permission would be a disaster. And I think eventually it would be AK-203 which would be produced.



wishful thinking their brainius. on one hand producing a copy of a version not agreed to would be a disaster and on the other hand you want Pak to produce a rifle not in the contract? Pak will never get the ak203, which is mostly a marketing ploy to attract fanbois who know next to nothing.

as for the rifle its DI and it's reliability is going thru unnecessary critique. it's there for accuracy and if the operative requires reliability, handling, rate and "toughness" a 762x51 AR pattern isn't going to be chosen as the weapon of choice in the first place.


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## PAR 5

For the newbies here who ask why POF copies?

Because 'copying' is far easier and cheaper than 'creating' an original design.

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## RAMPAGE

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> if POF really wants PA to adopt their weapons then they need to come out of their 1000 yrs old outdated mentality. They need to get creative and cut the bullcrap.
> AK is a rough and tough toy and they need to make it fit the needs of units in field.
> We need something along these lines which is practical and eyecandy.....it will surely turn some heads at PA to look and explore


 Turns out the people at Kalashnikov had PA in mind when they were working on their AK308. 






Watch from 3:30 onwards.

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## Zarvan

pzfz said:


> neither is the AK style rifle an AK103, the PK 18's mag also looks to be a 5.56x45 one. mislabeling happening.
> 
> 
> 
> wishful thinking their brainius. on one hand producing a copy of a version not agreed to would be a disaster and on the other hand you want Pak to produce a rifle not in the contract? Pak will never get the ak203, which is mostly a marketing ploy to attract fanbois who know next to nothing.
> 
> as for the rifle its DI and it's reliability is going thru unnecessary critique. it's there for accuracy and if the operative requires reliability, handling, rate and "toughness" a 762x51 AR pattern isn't going to be chosen as the weapon of choice in the first place.


Remember one thing when it comes to Russia and China we always don't announce out contracts with them. We buy weapons and than after a year or two of inducting them we announce even that is not announced directly by Army but shown in Government record and leaked online or shown in parade or some other way. So if you haven't heard of any contract with AK that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's not wishful thinking Janab. I know how things work and are working between Pakistan and China and Russia.



PAR 5 said:


> For the newbies here who ask why POF copies?
> 
> Because 'copying' is far easier and cheaper than 'creating' an original design.


AK-103 is not a copy we are not going to coping AK-103 and destroy our relation with Russia. We mostly likely have signed the contract and will announce later.


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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> AK-103 is not a copy we are not going to coping AK-103 and destroy our relation with Russia. We mostly likely have signed the contract and will announce later.


why are you calling the above gun as AK103? any particular reason ?
so far i haven't seen anything on this weapon that qualifies it as AK103.....



RAMPAGE said:


> Turns out the people at Kalashnikov had PA in mind when they were working on their AK308.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch from 3:30 onwards.


AK is a design that was build around a very specific catridge which was 7.62 
whatever Russians came up with after that required all lot of work and over the years they had managed to improve the design....like AKS 74u had it's fair share of issues when it was initially introduced....but with RnD over the time they improved it......Same goes for 5.56 in AK, it had cycling issues in PDW/ SBR confirguation when it initiallly came out in 2007.....there are still issues with the accuracy as the weapon is not build around 5.56 but they have done some good work.....
so when thinking about AK308, we cannot just take it as Mil weapon, it will need to be studied by Weaponologists and experts.....all lot of factors will have to be checked before we even consider for trails

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## Zarvan

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> why are you calling the above gun as AK103? any particular reason ?
> so far i haven't seen anything on this weapon that qualifies it as AK103.....
> 
> 
> AK is a design that was build around a very specific catridge which was 7.62
> whatever Russians came up with after that required all lot of work and over the years they had managed to improve the design....like AKS 74u had it's fair share of issues when it was initially introduced....but with RnD over the time they improved it......Same goes for 5.56 in AK, it had cycling issues in PDW/ SBR confirguation when it initiallly came out in 2007.....there are still issues with the accuracy as the weapon is not build around 5.56 but they have done some good work.....
> so when thinking about AK308, we cannot just take it as Mil weapon, it will need to be studied by Weaponologists and experts.....all lot of factors will have to be checked before we even consider for trails


Because Pak Army on display called it AK 103


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## RAMPAGE

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> why are you calling the above gun as AK103? any particular reason ?
> so far i haven't seen anything on this weapon that qualifies it as AK103.....
> 
> 
> AK is a design that was build around a very specific catridge which was 7.62
> whatever Russians came up with after that required all lot of work and over the years they had managed to improve the design....like AKS 74u had it's fair share of issues when it was initially introduced....but with RnD over the time they improved it......Same goes for 5.56 in AK, it had cycling issues in PDW/ SBR confirguation when it initiallly came out in 2007.....there are still issues with the accuracy as the weapon is not build around 5.56 but they have done some good work.....
> so when thinking about AK308, we cannot just take it as Mil weapon, it will need to be studied by Weaponologists and experts.....all lot of factors will have to be checked before we even consider for trails


Yes, but I'm more curious than skeptical since the Kalashnikov representative says that they were cognisant of PA's requirements when they were designing the weapon. The weapon's intended primary market is clearly not civilian .308 enthusiasts.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Because Pak Army on display called it AK 103
> View attachment 587750


i know, they also call an Assault rifle *'ESS EM GEE*" .....

you need to understand the difference between AK103 and AKM / 47....
AKM comes with Ribbed dust cover while it is simple stamped / pressed Dust Cover on AK103

AKM comes with 45degree gas port while AK103 comes with 90degree....this helps in improving the accuracy and cycling reliability

AKM comes without Muzzle device i.e flash hider or muzzle brake while AK103 comes with one .....
AKM comes with underfolder butt while AK103 comes with Side folder

these are the key differences i can see from the pictures.....
that is why am saying, POF is trying to sell the old horse with new clothes....heck

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## dr_jawwad71

I have mixed feelings just by looking at the pictures . If the whole process is in preliminary stages, then its ok. The approach is good at least we are trying to produce our weapons domestically. It will be much cost effective and is duely expected from organization like POF. However the introducltion of DI system is frustrating. I am sure no new rifle is produced on that syatem. Nobody in the world likes DI.
Furniture of pk21 is disoppointing, if it is a final design. Even smaller companies in USA producing gadgets and accessories to modernize AK systems and making these rifles more sodiers friendly esthetically and ergonomically.


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Because Pak Army on display called it AK 103
> View attachment 587750







*



AKMS*
The rifle POF has shown is AKMS,with underfolding stock, AK-103 style hand guard and slant cut muzzle brake.
__________________________________________________





*



AK-103*
While AK-103 has side folding stock,Gas vent canted 90°,AK-74 style muzzle brake and on left side a dove-tail rail for mounting scopes.

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## Zarvan

Sine Nomine said:


> View attachment 587968
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> AKMS*
> The rifle POF has shown is AKMS,with underfolding stock, AK-103 style hand guard and slant cut muzzle brake.
> __________________________________________________
> 
> View attachment 587970
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> AK-103*
> While AK-103 has side folding stock,Gas vent canted 90°,AK-74 style muzzle brake and on left side a dove-tail rail for mounting scopes.


Pakistan Army won't have labeled it AK-103 if they were not going for AK-103. In past two to three years Pakistan has inducted lot of weapons from Russia. We won't risk all that for copying a Gun or its version which we can get directly from Russia.


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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Army won't have labeled it AK-103 if they were not going for AK-103. In past two to three years Pakistan has inducted lot of weapons from Russia. We won't risk all that for copying a Gun or its version which we can get directly from Russia.


Please tell us more about these lot of weapons,right know they don't even make 0.1% of armoury,heck last time Russians were even pissed off at POF during a Turkish defence show,when we marketed AK clones.


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## Zarvan

Sine Nomine said:


> Please tell us more about these lot of weapons,right know they don't even make 0.1% of armoury,heck last time Russians were even pissed off at POF during a Turkish defence show,when we marketed AK clones.


We have inducted MI 35 helicopters and we have inducted Anti Tank weapons. More helicopters are on order. PANTSIR Air Defence also arriving soon and talks on Pakistan testing T 90 also taking place. Pakistan and Russia's relationship is growing

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bhai tu rehne de


Zarvan said:


> We have inducted MI 35 helicopters and we have inducted Anti Tank weapons. More helicopters are on order. PANTSIR Air Defence also arriving soon and talks on Pakistan testing T 90 also taking place. Pakistan and Russia's relationship is growing


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bhai tu rehne de


Go check yourself.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAKegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0a6zM_bXkFZvBYFeNWJLg2


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## Ahmet Pasha

Now only Mi35 and Kornet are confirmed.
Kya pata you are right since Kornet orders were also not made public.


Zarvan said:


> Go check yourself.
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAKegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0a6zM_bXkFZvBYFeNWJLg2


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## Zarvan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Now only Mi35 and Kornet are confirmed.
> Kya pata you are right since Kornet orders were also not made public.


Exactly we from China and Russia induct things without announcing them

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## Sine Nomine

Zarvan said:


> We have inducted MI 35 helicopters and we have inducted Anti Tank weapons. More helicopters are on order. PANTSIR Air Defence also arriving soon and talks on Pakistan testing T 90 also taking place. Pakistan and Russia's relationship is growing


4 Helis and 50+ kornet,Hazrat jaag jao.


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## Zarvan

Sine Nomine said:


> 4 Helis and 50+ kornet,Hazrat jaag jao.


Lot of other things are being negotiated janab. More MI 35 are already on order. T 90 and PANTSIR being discussed and various other weapon systems.

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## The Terminator

Even the Chinese know what to copy and displayed in their recent parade a new short stroke gas operated Assault rifle largely influenced from HK 416. At least POF may learn from our friendly neighbors.














https://www.janes.com/article/92585/more-details-emerge-about-pla-s-new-assault-rifle

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## s.k

Just was watching movie "Angel has Fallen" and saw this, i dont know what rifle is this but the point is, isn't very similar to PK18 ? Or PK18 is that much famous now so they are using it in Hollywood movies.


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## Haris Ali2140

s.k said:


> Just was watching movie "Angel has Fallen" and saw this, i dont know what rifle is this but the point is, isn't very similar to PK18 ? Or PK18 is that much famous now so they are using it in Hollywood movies.


You must have seen AR10 since pk 18 is based on it.


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## s.k

Haris Ali2140 said:


> You must have seen AR10 since pk 18 is based on it.


I dont know buddy but PK18 looks ditto copy of this rifle.


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## Haris Ali2140

s.k said:


> I dont know buddy but PK18 looks ditto copy of this rifle.


Go to post #5.


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## s.k

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Go to post #5.


I know its hybrid of AR10 and HK and Whatever, the question is its ditto copy of that rifle, attached in above post.


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## s.k

LMT308MWs





L129A1

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## Ahmet Pasha

British iterations of AR???


s.k said:


> LMT308MWs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L129A1


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## s.k

Ahmet Pasha said:


> British iterations of AR???


American
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Machine_and_Tool_Company


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## Kompromat

POF is showing off 3 products they have recently imported from abroad, add LSR and you have 4 products POF has tried to sell to the Army, so far unsuccessfully.

This is mockery. POF is not paying any attention to R&D. They import stuff, cobble it together and try to sell it to the Army as their own product. Of course Army is not foolish and they know how its going.

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## Sine Nomine

Horus said:


> POF is showing off 3 products they have recently imported from abroad, add LSR and you have 4 products POF has tried to sell to the Army, so far unsuccessfully.
> 
> This is mockery. POF is not paying any attention to R&D. They import stuff, cobble it together and try to sell it to the Army as their own product. Of course Army is not foolish and they know how its going.


They don't have any gunsmiths or firearm designers and i suspect they don't have any design department either,one shouldn't expect anything from them,POF is just PSM without political influence.Small Arms is a corporate business,we should never expect much from a business being run by Govt babus.

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## niaz

Sine Nomine said:


> They don't have any gunsmiths or firearm designers and i suspect they don't have any design department either,one shouldn't expect anything from them,POF is just PSM without political influence.Small Arms is a corporate business,we should never expect much from a business being run by Govt babus.




Honorable Sir,

IMO you are asking too much of POF. POF’s main task was to make Pakistan self-sufficient in the manufacture ammunition & small arms requirement of Pak Army. This has been achieved by manufacturing under ‘Licence’.

Apparently, there is a section of POF called Defence Science & Technology dedicated to R & D but it lacks sufficient funds and the number of qualified personnel. If we really want POF to come up with innovative military technology; at first we would need to allocate adequate resources in men & material then be patient for a few years. But can Pak Army wait that long?

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## Sine Nomine

niaz said:


> Honorable Sir,
> 
> IMO you are asking too much of POF. POF’s main task was to make Pakistan self-sufficient in the manufacture ammunition & small arms requirement of Pak Army. This has been achieved by manufacturing under ‘Licence’.
> 
> Apparently, there is a section of POF called Defence Science & Technology dedicated to R & D but it lacks sufficient funds and the number of qualified personnel. If we really want POF to come up with innovative military technology; at first we would need to allocate adequate resources in men & material then be patient for a few years. But can Pak Army wait that long?


Sir,with due respect Ronnie Barrett was no one,he designed M82 rifle,here is his full story
"On January 1, 1982, when Barrett was photographing a river patrol gunboat on the Stones River near Nashville, Tennessee, he created an award-winning picture that made him start thinking about the .50 caliber cartridge because of two Browning machine guns mounted prominently on that boat.

Since no commercially available .50 caliber rifle existed at that time, he decided to make a semi-automatic weapon.With no background in manufacturing or engineering, Barrett sketched a cross-sectioned, full-size rifle, adding different components to it. Once he decided on the concept, he approached some machine shops with his drawings. They told him that if his ideas were any good, someone smarter would have already designed it. However, this did not diminish his determination.
A few days later, Bob Mitchell, a tool and die maker and machinist in Smyrna, Tennessee, agreed to help. After their regular job responsibilities, the men would start working on Barrett’s ideas, sometimes laboring together all night in a one-bay garage using a small mill and lathe. Barrett also found support from a sheet metal fabricator who allowed him to visit the owner’s shop and work directly with one employee, Harry Watson. The resulting gun was the shoulder-fired Barrett rifle, which was created in less than four months."​If this guy who was no one with nothing in firearm field can design,manufacture and sell a firearm to almost 60 states on planet,why can't our people do that with a plant spanning several km^2?
There is something will and desire to do something,a simple rifle isn't a rocket science neither it requires something we don't have.Small arms don't require any R&D of level which requires huge money.

If POF after 60 years still needs few more years for designing a firearm,better concentrate on acquiring new licence and know how for almost a billion dollor,since we have ample money.

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## niaz

Sine Nomine said:


> Sir,with due respect Ronnie Barrett was no one,he designed M82 rifle,here is his full story
> "On January 1, 1982, when Barrett was photographing a river patrol gunboat on the Stones River near Nashville, Tennessee, he created an award-winning picture that made him start thinking about the .50 caliber cartridge because of two Browning machine guns mounted prominently on that boat.
> 
> Since no commercially available .50 caliber rifle existed at that time, he decided to make a semi-automatic weapon.With no background in manufacturing or engineering, Barrett sketched a cross-sectioned, full-size rifle, adding different components to it. Once he decided on the concept, he approached some machine shops with his drawings. They told him that if his ideas were any good, someone smarter would have already designed it. However, this did not diminish his determination.
> A few days later, Bob Mitchell, a tool and die maker and machinist in Smyrna, Tennessee, agreed to help. After their regular job responsibilities, the men would start working on Barrett’s ideas, sometimes laboring together all night in a one-bay garage using a small mill and lathe. Barrett also found support from a sheet metal fabricator who allowed him to visit the owner’s shop and work directly with one employee, Harry Watson. The resulting gun was the shoulder-fired Barrett rifle, which was created in less than four months."​If this guy who was no one with nothing in firearm field can design,manufacture and sell a firearm to almost 60 states on planet,why can't our people do that with a plant spanning several km^2?
> There is something will and desire to do something,a simple rifle isn't a rocket science neither it requires something we don't have.Small arms don't require any R&D of level which requires huge money.
> 
> If PAF after 60 years still needs few more years for designing a firearm,better concentrate on acquiring new licence and know how for almost a billion dollor,since we have ample money.



Thank you.

Firstly the submarine is not a new invention. There are too few parts in a firearm compared to a submarine.
For the submarine, you would need at least 20 geniuses like Ronnie Barrett. So that example does not apply here.

Secondly, only a special kind of person can invent things. Wright brothers were bicycle manufacturers but invented the airplane. Thomas Edison had more than 1000 invention which he patented. Indeed if Pakistan can produce someone with real genius, we can be at the forefront of the technology, but then you will have to wait for him to be born. If by chance that person happens to be a Qadiani or Christian or Hindu, the poor guy would be hounded out of Pakistan by the mullahs; a fate that befell Prof Abdus Salam. You are however welcome to dream on, but in the meantime why not start with the design & manufacture of tractors & automobiles?

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## ziaulislam

Question?
Do they work?
If yes who cares if its a clone,as long we dont run into major Issues

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## Sine Nomine

ziaulislam said:


> Question?
> Do they work?
> If yes who cares if its a clone,as long we dont run into major Issues


Zia sahab,these clones cost a fortune,still they are a new rifle for one who would use them,Govt still needs to train people on that rifle,on top of that that a clone which is as old as G3 itself has got issues of it's own.



niaz said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Firstly the submarine is not a new invention. There are too few parts in a firearm compared to a submarine.
> For the submarine, you would need at least 20 geniuses like Ronnie Barrett. So that example does not apply here.
> 
> Secondly, only a special kind of person can invent things. Wright brothers were bicycle manufacturers but invented the airplane. Thomas Edison had more than 1000 invention which he patented. Indeed if Pakistan can produce someone with real genius, we can be at the forefront of the technology, but then you will have to wait for him to be born. If by chance that person happens to be a Qadiani or Christian or Hindu, the poor guy would be hounded out of Pakistan by the mullahs; a fate that befell Prof Abdus Salam. You are however welcome to dream on, but in the meantime why not start with the design & manufacture of tractors & automobiles?


Sir with due respect Ronnie Barrett designed a simple yet robust Anti-materiel rifle known as light fifty,i think you mixed up things,we are talking about building a new rifle from ground up.
Mullahs do whatever state allows them to do.Designing & manufacturing of tractors & automobiles is not a difficult job for country like Pakistan but we have few issues,any such vanture isn't backed by GoP,people don't invest into this and we don't have huge market to begin such vanture on the other hand a simple rifle is required by GoP for arming almost 2 million+ it's own servants and i am sure few million would be sold also.


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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> POF is showing off 3 products they have recently imported from abroad, add LSR and you have 4 products POF has tried to sell to the Army, so far unsuccessfully.
> 
> This is mockery. POF is not paying any attention to R&D. They import stuff, cobble it together and try to sell it to the Army as their own product. Of course Army is not foolish and they know how its going.




Take them to Small Industrial Estate, Peshawar, boys there will do a much better job for them on copying a design, instead of having the need to import a piece.

Moonstar was able to copy a very complex design of Grand Power X-calibr with rotating barrel, Royal Arms made a 308 AR10, Farooq bhai is making excellent & jaw dropping glock copies left & right...

The only thing missing from these weapons in metallurgical study & heat treatment, which IF pof gets off it's butt can be done with ease....

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## Kompromat

Only the Army can give a jolt to POF. Everyone knows that the solution is to build an ecosystem of SMEs working on fire arms, spares, sights, accessories and upgrades. POF enjoys state monopoly and therefore is incubated from Blowback as the Army is kind of duty bound to purchase some of their products. So POF has no need to invest in R&D. They can simply get licensed production for a western rifle at the cost of a few billion dollars to the taxpayers and go to sleep for another 50 years.

@Foxtrot Alpha

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## JohnWick

Horus said:


> Only the Army can give a jolt to POF. Everyone knows that the solution is to build an ecosystem of SMEs working on fire arms, spares, sights, accessories and upgrades. POF enjoys state monopoly and therefore is incubated from Blowback as the Army is kind of duty bound to purchase some of their products. So POF has no need to invest in R&D. They can simply get licensed production for a western rifle at the cost of a few billion dollars to the taxpayers and go to sleep for another 50 years.
> 
> @Foxtrot Alpha


Pk-18 finalized? If yes then when start inducting?


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## Kompromat

I don't think Army is going to hedge its bets on PK-10 (AR-10). If they wanted to, they had Sig & Colt rifles (AR-10 frames) in the competition. 



JohnWick said:


> Pk-18 finalized? If yes then when start inducting?

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## Zhukov

The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.56 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.56 x 45 Cartridge.


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## Ahmet Pasha

I'm gonna say something most of us will not like.

I thjnk Army still has alot of much corruption and incompetence when it comes to making things.

HIT and POF are disasters they could have made so much more money.

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## Invictus.inc

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.45 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.45 x 45 Cartridge.


Dude what caliber is 5.45 x 45?
Or did you magically invent one?


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## Zhukov

Invictus.inc said:


> Dude what caliber is 5.45 x 45?
> Or did you magically invent one?


i meant 5.56 x 45. Typo Error
Mixed the NATO 5.56 x 45 and Russian 5.45 x 39 Calibers my bad.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horus said:


> I don't think Army is going to hedge its bets on PK-10 (AR-10). If they wanted to, they had Sig & Colt rifles (AR-10 frames) in the competition.


In of itself, licensing an existing COTS design isn't a bad idea. But the issue with POF is that it won't do anything of substance to generate a return (via 3rd party sales) from such an investment. Their marketing isn't good, but with decent work they can generate $1 b in sales each year across all channels. There's no real drive for such work. 

Moreover, switching to a new design would also mean changing a lot of how POF functions, e.g., I bet the new rifles are built via automated facilities, so that would mean cutting or re-allocating a lot of labour. Sadly, state-owned entities are a convenient means to keep lots of folks busy and fed via inefficient tasks, be it POF, PIA, PSML, etc.

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## Path-Finder

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.56 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.56 x 45 Cartridge.


556 is on its way out! 6.8 will be the new cartridge so adopting 556 when US is going to adopt 6.8 is not keeping apace with change.

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## Armchair

niaz said:


> Honorable Sir,
> 
> IMO you are asking too much of POF. POF’s main task was to make Pakistan self-sufficient in the manufacture ammunition & small arms requirement of Pak Army. This has been achieved by manufacturing under ‘Licence’.
> 
> Apparently, there is a section of POF called Defence Science & Technology dedicated to R & D but it lacks sufficient funds and the number of qualified personnel. If we really want POF to come up with innovative military technology; at first we would need to allocate adequate resources in men & material then be patient for a few years. But can Pak Army wait that long?




It takes a single gunsmith to come up with a new design. What a poor and ridiculous excuse.


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## Sine Nomine

Path-Finder said:


> 556 is on its way out! 6.8 will be the new cartridge so adopting 556 when US is going to adopt 6.8 is not keeping apace with change.


Who told you so?


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## Path-Finder

Sine Nomine said:


> Who told you so?


Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

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## Sine Nomine

Path-Finder said:


> Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.


Read about NGSW a long time ago in detail,all short listed systems have pretty slim chance except MCX,that to if adopted in limited number.
Talks of Cal and Rifle replacement goes back to late 90's with XM-8,OICW,6.8 SPC,6.5's,.300 blk to name a few choices examined and discarded over time.
Any new system brings nothing new at table and with huge amount of 5.56 and x51 Nato ammo sitting around,these cals are going nowhere else.

P.S:-Read about 7.62x54R it's oldest and only rimmed cartridge in service in 21st century,post WW2 it only survived in USSR due to sheer amount of it lying in USSR depots.


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## Zhukov

Sine Nomine said:


> Read about NGSW a long time ago in detail,all short listed systems have pretty slim chance except MCX,that to if adopted in limited number.
> Talks of Cal and Rifle replacement goes back to late 90's with XM-8,OICW,6.8 SPC,6.5's,.300 blk to name a few choices examined and discarded over time.
> *Any new system brings nothing new at table and with huge amount of 5.56 and x51 Nato ammo sitting around,these cals are going nowhere else.*
> 
> P.S:-Read about 7.62x54R it's oldest and only rimmed cartridge in service in 21st century,post WW2 it only survived in USSR due to sheer amount of it lying in USSR depots.


their is a Reason why all modern armies have moved away from Lethal Heavy Rounds to light less deadly ammunition.
The Western Countries moved away from 7.62 x 51 NATO to 5.56 x 45
While the Eastern Block moved from 7.62 x 39 to 5.45 x 39
China from 7.62x39 to 5.8 x 42

-Modern Ammunition is Light weight and hence easier to carry. Soldiers can carry more ammunition. i.e Higher Carrying capacity per soldier.
-Modern Ammunition is less lethal, Causing the Enemy soldiers to carry huge amount of Wounded incapacitated soldiers.Wounded soldiers are a massive toll on battle field for fighting armies compared to dead soldiers.
-Modern Ammunition have higher Muzzle Velocity ( Jacket of 7.62 NATO is more then twice as heavy as 5.56 NATO)
-Less Recoil
As for New Guns. Imagine a G3 vs CZ Bren 2.
CZ Bren 2 can be adopted for both left and right handed use, Its Mag release and Slide lock are on both sides, It is much lighter, It has built in 4 Picatinny Rails for Detachments, It has Folding Stock, Rubber Butt Stock grip.
Easier to handle, Easy to maintain, customization to Soldier's Preferences, More Ammo per soldier, You don't need to drag the Type 56 along with G-3 If you can adopt a single modern standard Rifle.

The Existing G3 Stock and Ammunition can be phased out to Paramilitary, Reserves and Law enforcement forces. And For the Love of God Get rid of those Ancient T-56 Rifles of the Police Forces. AK/T-56 are Favorite rifles of Thugs and Outlaws, An Industry is running for AK style Rifles due to Use by Law enforcement. Scrapping the T56/AK will do more good then harm. Arm them with G3 and Arm the Armed Forces with Modern Rifles and Calibre


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## Amaa'n

Horus said:


> I don't think Army is going to hedge its bets on PK-10 (AR-10). If they wanted to, they had Sig & Colt rifles (AR-10 frames) in the competition.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In of itself, licensing an existing COTS design isn't a bad idea. But the issue with POF is that it won't do anything of substance to generate a return (via 3rd party sales) from such an investment. Their marketing isn't good, but with decent work they can generate $1 b in sales each year across all channels. There's no real drive for such work.
> 
> Moreover, switching to a new design would also mean changing a lot of how POF functions, e.g., I bet the new rifles are built via automated facilities, so that would mean cutting or re-allocating a lot of labour. Sadly, state-owned entities are a convenient means to keep lots of folks busy and fed via inefficient tasks, be it POF, PIA, PSML, etc.


i don't know how authentic is the source below, but i believe the guy....last time when POF introduced PK9, clone of berrtta, turns out it was not even manufactured at POF facility, they had outsourced the contract for manufacturing to someone in Small Industrial Estate, Peshawar.

Badar Brother & Sons were the OEM for that clone.....i wonder whose idea is to reintroduce the same model under different name this time


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252292047798763522

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## Sine Nomine

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> their is a Reason why all modern armies have moved away from Lethal Heavy Rounds to light less deadly ammunition.
> The Western Countries moved away from 7.62 x 51 NATO to 5.56 x 45
> While the Eastern Block moved from 7.62 x 39 to 5.45 x 39
> China from 7.62x39 to 5.8 x 42


West has gone again for searching new cal and have been trying with different one's like .300 Blackout,6.5's and 6.8 SPC-II.


ahmadnawaz22 said:


> While the Eastern Block moved from 7.62 x 39 to 5.45 x 39


7.62x39 still remains in front line service in EB.


ahmadnawaz22 said:


> China from 7.62x39 to 5.8 x 42


Do take a look at at 5.8x42,it's new but still in same class as x39.
5.56 doesn't suits the region we are fighting in.
Rest of your post is pretty much futile,deploying battle rifle is need of Pakistan,we have several million rounds of Ammo lying in form of x39 and x51 Nato,what we are suppose to do with that?
Type 56 is a good rifle,it lacks bells and whistles you see on AR-15's,but none the less it has proven itself to be a very versatile platform for the purpose it was fielded in mass numbers crica 2010.Cal 7.62x51 is used for Battle Rifles which are part of Pakistani Doctrine.
PS:-Take a look at deployment of SCAR-H,MK-14 and M110 in US forces.Take a look at Indian purchase of Sig Sauer SIG716 7.62x51 mm assault rifles and AK-203's.


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## Zhukov

Sine Nomine said:


> West has gone again for searching new cal and have been trying with different one's like .300 Blackout,6.5's and 6.8 SPC-II.
> 
> 7.62x39 still remains in front line service in EB.
> 
> Do take a look at at 5.8x42,it's new but still in same class as x39.
> 5.56 doesn't suits the region we are fighting in.
> Rest of your post is pretty much futile,deploying battle rifle is need of Pakistan,we have several million rounds of Ammo lying in form of x39 and x51 Nato,what we are suppose to do with that?
> Type 56 is a good rifle,it lacks bells and whistles you see on AR-15's,but none the less it has proven itself to be a very versatile platform for the purpose it was fielded in mass numbers crica 2010.Cal 7.62x51 is used for Battle Rifles which are part of Pakistani Doctrine.
> PS:-Take a look at deployment of SCAR-H,MK-14 and M110 in US forces.Take a look at Indian purchase of Sig Sauer SIG716 7.62x51 mm assault rifles and AK-203's.


Yea right. Any point i made that is not logically refuteable and which everyone is following is Futile. What else is there to discuss here when this is the approach.
BTW Eastern block adopted the new cartridge back in the days of 70s and 80s their is no eastern block anynore.And current day former eastern block countries dont use 7.62 x 39. Russia dont use 39 anymore they use 5.45 x 39. While Eastern europe moved to 5.56 NATO mostly. Lithuania, Latvia Check, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukarain,belarus, . I domt know what are you trying to say that 7.62 x 39 is in front line service with easter block
And 39 is not a category. 7.62 x 39 and 5.45 x 39 are day and night different. I have experience with both of them. 7.62 x 39 is a Bull. It has so much recoil. Even the much improved AKM variant. While 5.45 x 39 is very low on recoil and light weight. 

As for new ammunition. World always moves forward except us. We are stuck in 60s guns .
Good day


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## Sine Nomine

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Yea right. Any point i made that is not logically refuteable and which everyone is following is Futile. What else is there to discuss here when this is the approach.
> BTW Eastern block adopted the new cartridge back in the days of 70s and 80s their is no eastern block anynore.And current day former eastern block countries dont use 7.62 x 39. Russia dont use 39 anymore they use 5.45 x 39. While Eastern europe moved to 5.56 NATO mostly. Lithuania, Latvia Check, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukarain,belarus, . I domt know what are you trying to say that 7.62 x 39 is in front line service with easter block
> And 39 is not a category. 7.62 x 39 and 5.45 x 39 are day and night different. I have experience with both of them. 7.62 x 39 is a Bull. It has so much recoil. Even the much improved AKM variant. While 5.45 x 39 is very low on recoil and light weight.
> 
> As for new ammunition. World always moves forward except us. We are stuck in 60s guns .
> Good day


Whole world is pretty much stuck in 60's,as i said earlier 7.62x39 cal is still widespread Cal in service,if Russian have really given up 7.62x39,than won't have been developing iteration after iteration of AK's in this cal.
Going by your experience with recoil and your earlier points a 9mm or 10mm cal rifle is way better than any 5.56 or 7.62 rifle.There is something known as "utility" which in our case isn't achieved by 5.56,though if we have to go for new cal 6.8 SPC or .300 blk are better options but we should really wait for US decision.
P.S:-India adopted 5.56x45 INSAS replacing 7.62x51 and later supplemented it with 7.62x39 in ops area and in 2020 have went back to 7.62x51NATO and 7.62x39 in front line service.There is indeed a lesson to learn.

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## Mr.Cringeworth

ahmadnawaz22 said:


> The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.56 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.56 x 45 Cartridge.


We have to look at our operational requirements not at what the world is doing, 7.62 by 51 is here to stay as our standard issue rifle caliber because of its stopping power 223 will be used as well just by SF for special mission requirements.


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## Ahmet Pasha

NOW they want to release berretta m9 in Pakistan

With that rate it'll take another 30 years for Pakistan to get Glocks, Caniks, Taurus, S&W etc.


Foxtrot Alpha said:


> i don't know how authentic is the source below, but i believe the guy....last time when POF introduced PK9, clone of berrtta, turns out it was not even manufactured at POF facility, they had outsourced the contract for manufacturing to someone in Small Industrial Estate, Peshawar.
> 
> Badar Brother & Sons were the OEM for that clone.....i wonder whose idea is to reintroduce the same model under different name this time
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252292047798763522

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## Sunny4pak

*PK18 & PK21 Rifles by POF*


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