# Creation of Bangladesh



## EagleEyes

It is interesting to think about the creation of a seprate muslim country, Bangladesh. I have an interesting question for you guys.

If our Quaid alive today, what would he think about Bangladesh?


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## Spring Onion

If he was alive Bangladesh might not had been created.


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## A.Rahman

Jana said:


> If he was alive Bangladesh might not had been created.


 
If he was alive, we would have never seen army in politics.

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## EagleEyes

Well thats not the point. What if he just gets alive today in a shape of what he was like in the ruling days. What would he think about Bangladesh?


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## Spring Onion

He would think about those who had led to its creation as far as BD is concerned surely he will now think about its welfare, he was a such a visionary man.


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## Neo

Thats an interesting but a very difficult question. I think if The Quaid was alive a lot of things would have been different today, including Kashmir and Bangladesh and FATA.

Imho after ruling both wings for a decade he would have known how they differ in each and every way; they were merely connected by the religion! 

He would have been courageous enough not to deny EP independance if they asked for it.

Imho the partition should have created three states instead of two, Bangladesh should never have been a part of Pakistan.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Neo, 

One must understand the historical perspective of the Partition.

Pakistan came into being because of the demand for a Muslim homeland. East Bengal was a Muslim majority state and so it was axiomatic that they joined Pakistan. It was the obvious and natural thing that happened. Therefore, what came to become Bangladesh had to be a part of Pakistan.

In those day, the religious angle was on a high. Therefore, again it was a feeling of oneness that was important for the Bengalees of East Bengal to join Pakistan.

Bengalees are a very volatile race, irrespective of religion and they hold their language, traditions and culture on a very high personal pedestal. Therefore, to impose upon them another culture to bring a being of oneness becomes a bit tricky. The imposition of Urdu was the start of the divide.

What broke the camel's back was Mujibur Rehman being denied his due for reasons known to you.

The rest is history.

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## Averroes

> Imho the partition should have created three states instead of two, Bangladesh should never have been a part of Pakistan.



I concur. They should have been a seperate state from the start but with major alliance and cooperation with Pakistan.


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## Thunder

The bangladesh was a blessing from Allah to both us pakistanis and banglis, both of us held the other one back for our own selfish reasons. Today we both are happy as we are, we are still allies, just they are their own country


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## KashifAsrar

I think the Salim put the BD creation in right prespective 


> Bengalees are a very volatile race, irrespective of religion and they hold their language, traditions and culture on a very high personal pedestal. Therefore, to impose upon them another culture to bring a being of oneness becomes a bit tricky. The imposition of Urdu was the start of the divide.


 

Any way I think a geographical barrear of thousand of miles between two "Parts" was a cruel joke on the people. More over apart from religion, every other thing was different. These two parts would have been TWO parts right from day one.
but as Salim says that 


> In those day, the religious angle was on a high. Therefore, again it was a feeling of oneness that was important for the Bengalees of East Bengal to join Pakistan.


Then how it explains the presence of large number of "MINORITIES" in each part of that time? I think politics was dominating factor then religion. Leaders of the time played over the fear of the population, delibrately created by Birtish and readily adopted by leaders of the two communities.
Kashif


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## dabong1

Khawaja Nazimuddin 2nd prime minister pakistan born in Dacca, Bengal 

Muhammad Ali Bogra 3rd prime minister pakistan born in Bengal

Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy 5th prime minister pakistan born in Bengal .He is the founder of Awami League, one of the two major political parties of present day's Bangladesh.

Nurul Amin 9th prime minister pakistan born in Bengal

So out of the first 9 prime ministers of pakistan before the creation of bangladesh 4 where of bengali orgin.

The main rallying points of bangladesh's independance movement where to keep the bengali language and to get fair representation for the people of east pakistan.
The punjabi's did not complain when urdu was made the state language .The punjabi's are just as proud as the bengali's about the there history and culture but for the sake of national unity they let there language and literature take second place.
What would have happened have if the pathaans,sindhis and balouchs started saying they wanted there languague to to be the ones taught in the schools.
The point about political representation for the people of bengal [east pakistan] has already been made as out of the first nine prime ministers four where from bengal.


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## Awesome

Here's another one... 

Would Bangladesh consider reunion with the Pakistan federation, now?

They get autonomy, and complete control over matters in their own land and we share defence and economy?

Would Pakistan want that now?


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## TomCat111

Asim Aquil said:


> Here's another one...
> 
> Would Bangladesh consider reunion with the Pakistan federation, now?
> 
> They get autonomy, and complete control over matters in their own land and we share defence and economy?
> 
> Would Pakistan want that now?



I think neither will.


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## HAIDER

I have sympathy with Bengalies. But i support for em separate land name Bangladesh. Bangladesh reunion is not good idea for Pakistan. Then next question will be, are we ready to accomadate heavy influx of immigrant Bangli in Pakistan, which will be million. Do you guys ready for economic disaster of Pakistan ?


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## Eagle_Defender

now see himself...their bangladeshi army ...fighting on President and govt seat.
now bangali peoples should also blame to army and should got new country.
tell what change occured in bangladesh after Pakistan ? Nothing.
all bangladesh full of poverty.peoples living in miserable condition.
now why not you bangali peoples claim to Pakistan punjabi for poverty in bangladesh ??? ?


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## my_aks

Well if start considering about the IF & ELSE then a lot of thing and stuff would not have happened. But the way thing are, i thing it was lets say fortunate for pakistant that Bangladesh was created. our current leaders cann`t controll one region how in the hell would they have controlled Banglsdesh which is in the middle of India. For better or worse i belive stuff happens for a reason

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## EagleEyes

I think East Pakistan could work!

Only if the racial mentality was overcome, and the proper rights were given and a revision of government structure could be done to some extent. Only then we could get this worked. I still think current government structure is unstable... it is revived from the days of British emperialism, and it must change.


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## BanglaBhoot

I thank the WebMaster for raising this issue which deserves some thought and consideration. What would Jinnah have thought about Bangladesh? I recently read in a review of Stanley Wolpert's latest biography on Jinnah that he initially approved of Muslim Bengal being a separate entity to Pakistan as it would eventually be an ally having to naturally contend with a hostile India. This if true would have been a very far-sighted proposition and saved both Pakistan and Bangladesh decades of turmoil and mistrust if it was indeed accomplished. However, it is unlikely that an independent and sovereign Bangladesh if created in 1947 would have survived under Indian pressure. According to Wolpert, it was because of Nehruâs special relationship with the British that Calcutta was given to India and which ultimately prevented a Bangladesh emerging in 1947 as it was presumed that it could not have been a viable entity without the port city. It was probably also necessary that Pakistan and Bangladesh go through the painful fracture of 1971 to understand each other better and improve their security situation vis-a-vis India. 

I believe that there is a serious misunderstanding in some quarters about the economic situation of Bangladesh today. Bangladesh is not poverty stricken but has a thriving economy and has an estimated 40 million middle class that is growing by leaps and bounds. The image of Bangladesh as a desperately poor country is basically Indian propaganda as India does not wish to see its neighbour obtain economic prosperity which could destabilize the Seven Sister States who would probably want independence seeing no benefit in remaining in the Indian Union. Such a situation would aggravate other separatist tendencies in India and eventually see its dissolution. In other words, do not believe all the stories about Bangladesh most of them are untrue and are propagated by the Indian propaganda machine.

As for reunion between Pakistan and Bangladesh it would be an unlikely prospect because so much water has gone under the bridge since 1971 and to memories of that period are still fresh. A reunion would also have to face the same problems of a hostile India that would again play a divisive role. There is however ample room for increased cooperation in the economic and military fields with social and cultural exchanges as a beginning to a rapprochement. This process has already begun with a Pakistani professional and academic team visiting Bangladesh of which I was a discussant at the seminar. The regional conference was held at the Radisson Winter Garden Hotel in Dhaka on the subject of 'Regional Stability and Cooperation: The Role of Bangladesh and Pakistan' on April 18-19, 2007. I was asked to be a discussant on a paper presented by Mr. Fahimuddin, a lecturer at the University of Karachi. 

I would like to share the comments I made at the seminar with this forum and hopefully elicit some views on the issues I have raised â 


Bismillaher-Rahmaner-Rahim

Distinguished Guests, Discussants, Ladies and Gentlemen 

Assalamu Alaikum,

I would like to thank Mr. Fahim Uddin on his presentation of a thoroughly thought-provoking keynote paper on the strategic and military security situation of Bangladesh and Pakistan. I must also express my appreciation to the editor of PROBE magazine, Mr. Irtiza Nasim Ali, for according me this opportunity to speak on this occasion as discussant. It will be difficult for me to do justice to the insightful paper of Mr. Fahim Uddin especially as this is my first chance to view the paper and my remarks will, therefore, be somewhat generalized, tentative and extempore in nature. 

Issues involving strategic and military security tend to be highly controversial and contentious and this is more so when the names of Pakistan and Bangladesh are included together. This is particularly the case in Bangladesh and is an unfortunate consequence of certain quarters continually raising the spectre of 1971 to thwart a cooperative approach between our two countries on the vital strategic questions facing South Asia today. The events of 1971 are undoubtedly tragic with the loss of human life and suffering caused by the war but after 36 years why on earth this should impede the progress of 140 million Bangladeshis and 160 million Pakistanis completely escapes me. Being of the post 1971 generation with no memory or personal knowledge of that period I would hope that the policy makers in Bangladesh would now look at the present strategic interests of the country in a new and enlightened perspective without their views being coloured by the episode of 1971 which is now largely irrelevant to the strategic equations being considered in South Asia. 

While the differences between Bangladesh and Pakistan had been highlighted during and after the war the similarities were consistently overlooked. One similarity that is relevant to our discussion today is in respect of our security needs and threat perceptions which are almost identical, with variations based primarily on geographical location and this commonality is a point which is being slowly recognized in this country. There is no doubt in my mind that a closer understanding between Pakistan and Bangladesh on these important matters would be to the advantage of both countries and should be pursued with utmost vigor by our political leaders and their military advisers. 

However, this is not intended to overemphasize the military aspect of the cooperation as security threats can take on many dimensions and forms and the military solution is not always the most appropriate or necessary. In both countries poverty, illiteracy and other social deprivations are constant worries and have the potential to translate into security concerns when exploited by the unscrupulous. So as an alternative to military cooperation between Bangladesh and Pakistan there should be social, cultural and economic ones as well. This in fact should be the priority and military considerations will come at a later stage when better understanding is achieved between the two nations through social and cultural exchanges and economic advancement through increased trade and the opening up of markets. 

With these words, I appreciate Mr. Fahim Uddin for his excellently well argued and thematically introspective analysis of the notion of security. I hope this introduction to conceptual paradigm of security has clearly set the ground for subsequent discussions of cooperation in all other fields.

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## Interceptor

Averroes said:


> I concur. They should have been a seperate state from the start but with major alliance and cooperation with Pakistan.



If Pakistan was Pakistan, that means if Bangladesh was with Pakistan, WAUW what a day it would be Pakistan would have resolved the Kashmir issue YEAH. Pakistan would be one of the deadliest powers in asia as its satelite state would have the same capability as Pakistan i.e. it would have Nuke system missile system an Air force and man power etc.

Pakistan would have a very powerfull economy and a huge pool of tellent in the field of technology, it would be well reconized around the world because it would have more neighbors.

India would be one scared country.

What the father of the nation think about this I dont know what a dead mans perspective could be, be but I heard his speaches where he said *UNITY*. Well thats what I know Pakistan has lost that.

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## Neo

*Fall of Dhaka - an Indian Confession *
Friday May 04, 2007 

Abdullah Muntazir 
Abdullah.muntazir@gmail.com 

A member of the Indian Parliament, Rahul Gandhi, who also happens to be the son of ruling Congress Party of India President, Sonia Gandhi, boasted during an election rally in the Indian city of Bareli, that the dismemberment of Pakistan had been a triumphant accomplishment of the Gandhi family. Tasneem Aslam, the spokesperson for Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, responded by saying, that Rahul Gandhi's claim proves, without any doubt, that India has always been meddling in Pakistan's internal affairs. She also said that the Pakistan of today is not the same, as the one in '71, and Indian leaders must remember that Pakistan's defenses are infinitely stronger now. 

Thanks to Rahul Gandhi for reminding the newer generations of Pakistani youth about who their real, historical, and permanent enemy is, otherwise intentional efforts through confidence building measures to bury their burning, smoldering past would never have let them know who had been hacking away at their country's foundations. Our very own Minister of Education, who thinks there are forty Paras (sections) of the Qur'an, instead of thirty, is also attempting to cover up, or entirely remove from the curriculum, any references to the Hindu Brahman's sinister role in the dismemberment of Pakistan and his continuous scheming and subversive activities against this country. 

When looked at through a different perspective, with Rahul Gandhi's admission in view, one can clearly discern the reality of such slogans as; 'we are one', 'we are all children of the same mother', and 'walls of hatred must be brought down', etc., etc., by various Hindu leaders who come to Pakistan wearing fake cloaks of peace. Rahul Gandhi made his declaration with the utmost pride, which clearly shows that regardless of all the songs of peace that Indian leaders parrot, their vote-bank is basically dependent upon their level of enmity with Pakistan. They have, in fact, inherited this enmity from their previous generations. We are amazed as to why our government expects any good from a people who hold such narrow minded and antagonistic views towards Pakistan. If Islamabad thinks it can resolve the Kashmir issue with India through negotiations, or at least keep India from displaying an attitude of open hostility towards Pakistan, then it should re-read Emma Nicholson's report about the Kashmir issue, which is soon to be presented for approval to the European Union parliament. The report is completely biased in favor of India, and highly critical of Pakistan. 

Pakistani authorities had signed the joint 'Islamabad Declaration' with India in 2004 in the hope that the international community might put pressure on India to resolve the Kashmir issue. Yet India, throughout this period, worked behind the scenes to portray Pakistan as the biggest supporter of terrorism, with the subsequent result that Pakistan which was supposed to be the staunchest advocate for resolving the Kashmir issue, is now itself under fire. Pakistan, in fact, even stopped mentioning Kashmir at international forums to please India, in the hope that this might facilitate negotiations with it, but India, on the other hand, while keeping up a faÃ§ade of continuing negotiations with Pakistan, does not let any opportunity go by to blame Pakistan for cross-border infiltration. So much so, that the very next day after Rahul Gandhi's incriminatory admission, India's Defense Minister, A. K. Anthony again blamed Pakistan for supporting Kashmiri freedom fighters. If the Pakistani government, under these circumstances, is blamed for a failed Kashmir policy and a failed foreign policy in general, it instantly become enraged and begins blaming its critics of extremism. In fact, it has now become standard practice that the US, the EU, India, and Afghanistan, blame Pakistan for supporting terrorism and extremism, and the Pakistani government, instead of countering these allegations, conveniently transfers the blame onto the people, admitting, in fact, that the allegations are true. 

The spokesperson for Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs has claimed that this is not the Pakistan of '71, and that it now has a very strong defense. The first part of her statement is entirely correct that it is not the same Pakistan as that of 1971, as at that time, East Pakistan was still a part of Pakistan, Pakistan had a larger land mass at that time, and a larger population too. But, we disagree with the second part of her statement, on the basis of valid arguments, that Pakistan's defense is stronger than in those times. National unity is the prime element for a state's defense, and military hardware, although vital, plays a secondary role in this regard. External threats to a state cannot be countered with military equipment alone. Pakistan, nowadays, is going through its worst phase of internal unrest, chaos, sectarianism, as well as, language, tribal, and land ownership based feuds. There is active turmoil in two of the four provinces. Our own forces are in a state of war within Pakistan's borders. Political opportunists, who thrive during internal strife, have begun criticizing the country's armed forces openly, and even the freedom of the press and media is being exploited to malign them. In fact, it would not be wrong to say that the current propaganda campaign is quite similar to the one used by India to incite Bengalis against the Pakistani Army back in 1971. How can a country's defense be strong if there is a state of mutual distrust between a country's armed forces and its populace? 

Pakistan's dismemberment took place in '71 because the common ideological bond that had been the basis of Pakistan's foundation and independence, and the common unifying factor of the whole nation, had been casually neglected and abandoned. It was that common ideological bond that was the single most important factor which had bound East and West Pakistan as a single entity otherwise Bangladesh would never have been a part of Pakistan. If all the various ethnic peoples with all their different languages and traditions are beads of a common string, which is Pakistan, it is because of that same common ideological factor that keeps them bonded together, otherwise, why would Balochistan want to stick with Punjab and Sindh, or why would the Pathans want to live alongside Sindhis and Balochis? Pakistan was founded on the basis of La'ila'ha'il'lal'lah (There is no deity except Allah), and the strength of our defense is directly linked to the strength of our commitment to this common declaration of faith. When our commitment to this common declaration became weak in '71, the demons of ethnicity and nationalism quickly raised their ugly heads, whereas, in a different example, the commitment of the Kashmiris remained strong throughout this period, and that is why India has been unable to subjugate them, or to break their psychological and ideological bond with Pakistan. 

It is therefore imperative that our rulers should work to strengthen the ideological bonds of the nation instead of boasting about Pakistan's defense capabilities. They should not only strengthen the nations bond with our common declaration of faith, but their own commitment to it as well. They must stop state sponsorship and support of licentiousness and immorality, because Rahul Gandhi's mother once said that 'there is no need to fight Pakistan militarily anymore as we have already conquered them through our cultural invasion'. Therefore, instead of promoting Indian culture with state finances, the world, instead, should be made aware of this inhuman and barbaric culture and religion. The world should be told that even in these modern times, a Brahmin and a Shuder cannot eat at the same table. 

Rahul Gandhi has boasted that his party had been instrumental in the dismemberment of Pakistan, but he should know that there are people, in fact, many, many people, who are waiting to avenge the Dacca debacle; and that too, with interest. Hindus should not forget that during the past one thousand years, they have been able to rule India for only the last sixty years; as apart from the hundred and fifty odd years of British rule, it was Muslims who have always ruled India. In fact, it was Muslims who had unified India into one large state, and it was Muslims who divided it in 1947. If one ponders upon the details of the event that Indians are currently boasting about, one finds that they have not really succeeded in that either. India had wanted Bangladesh to become a client state like Sikkim, or Bhutan, but the valiant Bengalis who had given innumerable sacrifices for the independence of Pakistan, refused to bow down in front of the Gandhi family, or any other Indian ruler for that matter, and now Bangladesh, just like Pakistan, is blamed by India for cross-border infiltration. 

Bangladeshis too, should take note of Rahul Gandhi's claim, so that they can better appreciate and understand India's colonialist and imperialistic intentions. The three million Biharis Pakistanis stranded in Bangladesh should be given their due status as members of Bangladeshi society, and the wall of enmity which had been raised by India between Muslims should be brought down, and we should again become one as in the past, united on the basis of a common ideology. Pakistan and Bangladesh should form a confederation and chart an agreement for a common defense. Pakistan must act like the elder brother in this regard and extend all its cooperation for Bangladesh's defense. Pakistan needs an innovative and aggressive defense and foreign policy under a rapidly evolving global scenario. 

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?177140


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## Z Bhai

Are you sure? The all bangladesh are in poverty? 

If so, how come BD having over 6 percent growth? How come I see lots of skyscrapers in Dhaka and other cities of BD? How come I see a Bangladeshi getting Nobel Peace Prize? And how come I am attending this forum via internet? Please, start dissolving your anger towards BD cause of 71. East Bengal was one of the province which strongly supported creation of separate muslim state in subcontinent. We didn't want breaking up of Pakistan, your "Brainless Generals" bound us to get divorce with Pakistan. 

India is strong. Economically and Military. BD and Pak should have common agenda of tackling India economically and militarily. Indian government really don't want its neighbors to be economically prosperous. Both Pak and BD can have economic tie via investments, joint ventures etc. Cultural and Academic exchanges can happen regularly btw two countries, this will help to eliminate misconceptions and grow stronger ties. Industrial joint venture is important now cause of Indian giants like TATA, BIRLA, BAJAJ etc will soon set our consumer to eat their cheap goods in the name of FREE TRADE.


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## dabong1

I agree with Z Bhai a lot off what is shown on tv and the media is propaganda and as pakistan we should find this easy to understand as our own country is shown in a negative manner by the press.
The bangladesh economy is growing well and if i am correct b/desh has a higher literacy then pakistan.


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## joey

yeah Z bhai eat cheap goods of tata birla, and what about the 3 billion dollar investment? the Jobs it will create? Why dont you ask your govt to dump our goods and opt for "Costlier" European goods since our ones are cheap ones?

MBI Munshi, if not for Nehru facilitated Calcutta udner bangladesh? you mean calcutta under bangladesh? good joke of the century.

Calcutta and Chattogram were the two thinkcentres of partition, one alieneated another from the other, there is no question of one occupying other. The only thing I miss here is Hilsa from River Padya.

To me, Bangladesh has much to gain from India other than Pakistan, who helped her getting independence, provided she puts into perspective certain Indias interests as well, She can choose to do the otherwise, shes a sovereign and free nation.


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## Z Bhai

Those 3 billion investment are hanging and it is not final yet. 
TATA has been proposing to buy our gas way below market price, so that in the name of GLOBALIZATION they can produce more cheap fertilizer than our local producer, and they can KICK OFF our producer from the Market.

AND there are other issues ALSO


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## Adux

fuuny bangladesh cries at us on globo, we cry at the g-8,the circle goes on.lol


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## kidwaibhai

i think that the creation of Bangladesh was natural progression of things. they were always a separate nation. I think that the creation of Bangladesh was the best mistake we ever made.


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## niaz

kidwaibhai said:


> i think that the creation of Bangladesh was natural progression of things. they were always a separate nation. I think that the creation of Bangladesh was the best mistake we ever made.




Muslim League was founded in 1906 in Dhaka by Nawab Mohsinul Mulk and
Bengalis were also in the forefront of the liberation movement. Agha Khan -III was its first president and its headquarters were in Lukhnow. Sir Zafarullah Khan ( a Qadiani) in his first presidentail address in 1931 advocated the cause of the Muslims.

Whereas Punjab had the Unionist government under Khizar Hayat Tiwana; Chief Minister of Punjab from 1942 to 1947 and NWFP under Red Shirts never wanted Pakistan anyway. It is ironic that all the people and parties who were anti partition are now the stalwarts of Pakistan.

We lost our way after the assassination of Liaqat Ali Khan in 1951. I remember reading somewhere that Valib Bhai Patel had said in 1947 that Pakistan will collapse under its own weight. It took 25 years and a multitude of political errors which caused the creation of Bangal Desh. IMO creation of Bangla Desh was the biggest calamity that could befall to Pakistan. By acceptiing that Bengalis were a seperate nation we question the very basis of creation of Pakistan in the first place.

But we havent learned from it. We have members in this forum who think less of the Mohajirs. May be MQM leader Altaf Husein is right when he questions the two nation theory. 

How can we talk of Muslim Ummah as being one when we diffrentiate between people within Pakistan on the basis of their mother tongue??. Allama Iqbal must be turning is his grave because it was he who proposed the idea of two nations in 1930. 

Perhaps education will eventually provide the solution but we we are still spending far too little on education. Sorry to disagree with the Hon Kidwaibahi but there is no such thing as the "Best mistake".


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## Contrarian

kidwaibhai said:


> i think that the creation of Bangladesh was natural progression of things. they were always a separate nation. I think that the creation of Bangladesh was the best mistake we ever made.



What was good about the creation of Bangladesh, could you tell me from a Pakistani POV ?


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## kidwaibhai

i would be glad to.
Bangladesh at that point in time had the larger section of the population but its part in the GDP was smaller. The area was prone to natural disasters. Thus in some sense a drain on the economy.
From a military POV it was very strangly placed and could not be defended. india could have easily cut it off as it did.


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## Contrarian

So basically, the only good to Pakistan was that it was cut off, the GDP of that section could have grown easily mate, that is not a problem. And natural disasters there occur as much as they would anywhere else. Thats not a proper reason, its location was such that had Pakistan prepared properly, it could have opened up 2 very large fronts with India in case of war. It had a vital location.

Could people here actually analyse seriously what good it was for Bangladesh to break away from Pakistan?


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## Adux

Bangladesh at the time was giving in more the Pakistan GDP than Western Pakistan.


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## Bull

kidwaibhai said:


> i would be glad to.
> Bangladesh at that point in time had the larger section of the population but its part in the GDP was smaller. The area was prone to natural disasters. Thus in some sense a drain on the economy.
> From a military POV it was very strangly placed and could not be defended. india could have easily cut it off as it did.



Well a very starneg remark,. You give up land bcoz its not worthy, you give up land bcoz its not defendable. Well then you should give up NWFP too, what use is it for the national exchequor? You should give up the claim on siachin too as its militarily very difficult to occupy.


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## salman nedian

I want to say to 'Z Bhai' and 'MBI Munshi' both our Bangladeshi brothers that yes we need to increase economic and defence cooperation but we are the post 1971 generation so we should look forward we can make a Union of independant Countries with a *joint currency*,*no barriers of visa/passport* and *joint defence*.we should realize the changes in the world its a Propaganda age let me give u a example one of the Six points of Mr.Shaikh Mujeeb was the saperate currencies for both the parts of Country but see E.U! world is moving towards joint currency.so let us realize the global challenges we should form atleast a E.U type Union and we should work for that in our countries (Pakistan and Bangladesh).we should take steps for *'Special Relations'* with each other let our Countries be on the way which Quaid-e-Azam wanted (After all Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was the leader of both of us).


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## Bull

salman nedian said:


> I want to say to 'Z Bhai' and 'MBI Munshi' both our Bangladeshi brothers that yes we need to increase economic and defence cooperation but we are the post 1971 generation so we should look forward we can make a Union of independant Countries with a *joint currency*,*no barriers of visa/passport* and *joint defence*.we should realize the changes in the world its a Propaganda age let me give u a example one of the Six points of Mr.Shaikh Mujeeb was the saperate currencies for both the parts of Country but see E.U! world is moving towards joint currency.so let us realize the global challenges we should form atleast a E.U type Union and we should work for that in our countries (Pakistan and Bangladesh).we should take steps for *'Special Relations'* with each other let our Countries be on the way which Quaid-e-Azam wanted (After all Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was the leader of both of us).



How does a single currency help economic development?


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## salman nedian

Below are the benifits of Single currency:

1,If we develop single market that will work better with the single currency.

2,For businesses and consumers the single currency will also take away the uncertainty about the price for which goods are sold.As we all know, sudden exchange rate movements can wipe out profit margins in a matter of hours.

3,If goods and services are priced in the same currency the competitive effect of the single market will be strengthened considerably.This will stimulate growth and employment.

4,By adopting a single Currency we create a stronger economy capable of growing at a faster rate. Faster growth is needed to put more people back to work and to achieve a rising standard of living for people.

Also i would like to say that Pakistan is a emerging economy and Pakistan & Bangladesh can strengthened their economies by forming a Union.


But above all Yaar its a matter of "National Pride,Dignity and strength" which is extremely necessary.b/c what happened in the past was not done by us so we the Younger generation deserves the right to see our Country United and Progressing.


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## salman nedian

Also i think that we need to do some practical work.There are members in this forum who are the Men from Pakistan Army so u people have great influence in our Administrative structure you can initiate the process,also there should be more people to people contacts. well sorry to say i disagree with the point that if we(Pakistan and Bangladesh) reunite or form some sort of Union there will be flood of immigrants from B.D to Pakistan.Pakistan is a big country and its population increase by millions every year so it doesnt matter.practical initiation is necessary


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## bobloblaw

I agree with Salman
there wouldn't be a flood of immigrants
however, there should be some sort of cooperation


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## Z Bhai

Thank you for your ideas but I think there will be problems for this union;

For

A) Single currency

The first conflict will start for setting up monetary policy? Who will set it? BD or Pak? 
BD may say they are credible and vice versa. You definitely need a central bank to set interest rate to control money supply. Let me assure you even that central bank will be a LOSER to set credible monetary policy and controlling inflation. 

Now you may ask me about European Central Bank(ECB), well the fact is that even ECB has fail to set up suitable policy for the union. For example Ireland, they had inflation rate around 2% before joining single currency but after joining it rose to 6%. I definitely don't want see social or political unrest in Bangladesh or Pakistan.

B) Free visa or passport

Well I definitely don't want to hear that extremist (both BD and Pak) are plotting in BD to kill leader of Pakistan !!! Free visa or passport, I think will increase the mobility of fugitives, extremist and terrorists within two countries. At least now, you can ask; who are you? what is your purpose to visit that country etc but then you wouldn't have any chance to ask these questions. 

C) Peoples' view

To Pakistani brothers in this forum; whether you deny it or not but it is true that your military has committed genocide in 71 in East Pakistan. There has been DARK MEMORIES made by your military in BD. We think our independence is special because we grabbed it through war. Thanks to India for helping us we are greatful to them. This two nation union definitely will be opposed by our conscious society and the people of Bangladesh. 

Both Pak and BD will be better position economically if they can pursue to make SAARC a success. Yes there is no balance of power in SAARC as there has been in EU. And India is not generous enough for SAARC. So I think to make SAARC a success we need to find balancer. I think China will be good and also Japan. If we need to change the name from SOUTH ASIA ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL COOPERATION to ASIAN ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL COOPERATION we should do it.


For BD and Pak bilateral issue, as I have mentioned, should have joint venture industries as this will create win win situation.
I am impressed about Pakistan's own defense industries BD can be benefited from it. 

Allah Hafeez


----------



## Bull

salman nedian said:


> Below are the benifits of Single currency:
> 
> 1,If we develop single market that will work better with the single currency.
> 
> Didnt quite get it.
> 
> 2,For businesses and consumers the single currency will also take away the uncertainty about the price for which goods are sold.As we all know, sudden exchange rate movements can wipe out profit margins in a matter of hours.
> 
> 3,If goods and services are priced in the same currency the competitive effect of the single market will be strengthened considerably.This will stimulate growth and employment.
> 
> 4,By adopting a single Currency we create a stronger economy capable of growing at a faster rate. Faster growth is needed to put more people back to work and to achieve a rising standard of living for people.
> 
> Also i would like to say that Pakistan is a emerging economy and Pakistan & Bangladesh can strengthened their economies by forming a Union.
> 
> 
> But above all Yaar its a matter of "National Pride,Dignity and strength" which is extremely necessary.b/c what happened in the past was not done by us so we the Younger generation deserves the right to see our Country United and Progressing.



Single currency takes away the vital currency advantage that the thrid world countries enjoy.


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## intruder

salman nedian said:


> Below are the benifits of Single currency:
> 
> 1,If we develop single market that will work better with the single currency.
> 
> 2,For businesses and consumers the single currency will also take away the uncertainty about the price for which goods are sold.As we all know, sudden exchange rate movements can wipe out profit margins in a matter of hours.
> 
> 3,If goods and services are priced in the same currency the competitive effect of the single market will be strengthened considerably.This will stimulate growth and employment.
> 
> 4,By adopting a single Currency we create a stronger economy capable of growing at a faster rate. Faster growth is needed to put more people back to work and to achieve a rising standard of living for people.
> 
> Also i would like to say that Pakistan is a emerging economy and Pakistan & Bangladesh can strengthened their economies by forming a Union.
> 
> 
> But above all Yaar its a matter of "National Pride,Dignity and strength" which is extremely necessary.b/c what happened in the past was not done by us so we the Younger generation deserves the right to see our Country United and Progressing.



Salman, after reading your comments I am wondering how UK and other europian countries are prospering even when they have different currency


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## BanglaBhoot

As long as India avoids multilateral solutions to South Asian problems then good ideas will just be a waste of time. It is easier for India to bully and have its all its own way through bilateral negotiations.


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## Mohammad Ali Akanda

Dear Munshi,
Have you read the book 'Tragedy of Errors, East Pakistan Crisis 1968-1971' written by Lt. Gen. Kamal Matnuddin (Retd) HI (M), S. Bt.?
He wrote, "Pakistan had been described by may western and Indian writers as a geographical nonsensity and a country disfigured at birth."


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## bobloblaw

I have that book.......


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## Mohammad Ali Akanda

bobloblaw said:


> I have that book.......


What is your comment about this book?


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## Mohammad Ali Akanda

Web Master said:


> It is interesting to think about the creation of a separate Muslim country, Bangladesh. I have an interesting question for you guys.
> 
> If our Quaid alive today, what would he think about Bangladesh?


Quaida Azam Mohammad Ali Jinna would be happy about Bangladesh.


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## Mohammad Ali Akanda

The Controversy over the Interpretation of the Lahore Resolution.
The Lahore Resolution (later to be known as the Pakistan Resolution) moved by Fazlul Haq at the 27th Session of the All India Muslim League, at Lahore on March 23, 1940 stated "that geographically contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted, with such territorial adjustments as may be necessary, that the areas in which the Muslims are in a majority, as in the north-west and eastern zones of India, should be grouped to constitute independent _states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."_


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## Neo

MBI Munshi said:


> As long as India avoids multilateral solutions to South Asian problems then good ideas will just be a waste of time. It is easier for India to bully and have its all its own way through bilateral negotiations.



Agreed!


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## BanglaBhoot

Mohammad Ali Akanda said:


> The Controversy over the Interpretation of the Lahore Resolution.
> The Lahore Resolution (later to be known as the Pakistan Resolution) moved by Fazlul Haq at the 27th Session of the All India Muslim League, at Lahore on March 23, 1940 stated "that geographically contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted, with such territorial adjustments as may be necessary, that the areas in which the Muslims are in a majority, as in the north-west and eastern zones of India, should be grouped to constitute independent _states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."_



A.K. Fazlul Haq was at the time the Chief Minister of Bengal but another equally important Bengali Muslim was H.M. Suhrawardy who in 1946 moved a resolution at the Delhi Convention of Muslim League legislators modifying the Lahore Resolution of 1940 thus amending the concept of two Muslim states to be carved out of British India. 

My point is if The Lahore Resolution had been followed to its letter it would probably have saved us the tragedies of 1971 but would an autonomous and sovereign Muslim Bengal have been a viable entity with the hostile and expansionist gaze of India over looking us. Even a hint of independence saw the dissolution of Sikkim as a sovereign and independent state by India. The same fate would probably have befallen the Muslim Bengal state that would have been created out of the original Lahore Resolution. 

After 1971 and 36 years later Bangladesh can stand up to India but I doubt this would have been the case if we were independent in 1947.


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## HK-47

we Bengalis were too different from the Pakistanis.and the Pakistani administration in west Pakistan was too oppressive and aggressive.Like how they wanted to make Urdu the sole official language in East Pakistan.and there existed an inequality between the people of the West and East.Independence was bound to happen and I am glad it did.
for the record this doesn't mean we should sever all ties with Pakistan.Look at the UK and the US;they are allies now.although I dislike Pakistan for many reasons (and also like it for some too) a good and strong relationship with Pakistan for BD is necessary.

I agree with Munshi,we should have received independence in 1947.Things would have been better now.


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## Contrarian

I think Munshi makes a case that it is better NOT to have recieved independence in 1947 !! He says its better the way it has been !! Getting independence from Pakistan.


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## BanglaBhoot

There was actually a third option in 1947 that would have allowed an independent Muslim Bengal State to exist but this idea was squashed by Nehru. I had only discussed the second of the two options in may last posting but that idea would not have given the opportunity for such a state to survive especially under Indian domination and hegemony. The third option that did come up would have given some equality between Pakistan, India and a Bengal Muslim State that none would be allowed to dominate the others. The difference that would have allowed this to happen was the proposal for a different type of constitutional structure but I do not intend to discuss this possibility any further here.


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## niaz

MBI Munshi said:


> There was actually a third option in 1947 that would have allowed an independent Muslim Bengal State to exist but this idea was squashed by Nehru. I had only discussed the second of the two options in may last posting but that idea would not have given the opportunity for such a state to survive especially under Indian domination and hegemony. The third option that did come up would have given some equality between Pakistan, India and a Bengal Muslim State that none would be allowed to dominate the others. The difference that would have allowed this to happen was the proposal for a different type of constitutional structure but I do not intend to discuss this possibility any further here.




There is some truth in it. The name Pakistan has no intials for Bengal. I vaguely remember that during the discussion with one of the independence movement leaders ( I dont recall his name, it was something .... Imam. He was one of the colleagues of Quaid e Azam and I met him when he was a guest at the house of his friend who happened to be father of my class mate. This was 1957), it came out that one of the options was to form a seperate country called "Bangsam" which implied Bengal and Assam together as the Muslim majority areas on the Eastern side of British India. However there was strong opposition to this idea from the Congress. As a compromise Sylhet was removed from Assam and attached to East Bengal and together became East Pakistan. Assam minus Sylhet district was no longer Muslim majority state. Maulana Bhashani ( Red Maulana) of National Awamy Party opposed this as it meant no independent Bengal and continued in opposition to what he termed Pakistani colonialism until his death in 1976.


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## BanglaBhoot

Niaz, 

I think your recollection and your understanding of the issues is correct.


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## salman nedian

HK-47 said:


> for the record this doesn't mean we should sever all ties with Pakistan.Look at the UK and the US;they are allies now.although I dislike Pakistan for many reasons (and also like it for some too) a good and strong relationship with Pakistan for BD is necessary.



I would like to see your suggestions about the nature of relationship with Pakistan and how those relations can be developed!


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## salman nedian

Z Bhai said:


> Both Pak and BD will be better position economically if they can pursue to make SAARC a success. Yes there is no balance of power in SAARC as there has been in EU. And India is not generous enough for SAARC. So I think to make SAARC a success we need to find balancer. I think China will be good and also Japan. If we need to change the name from SOUTH ASIA ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL COOPERATION to ASIAN ASSOCIATION OF REGIONAL COOPERATION we should do it.
> 
> 
> For BD and Pak bilateral issue, as I have mentioned, should have joint venture industries as this will create win win situation.
> I am impressed about Pakistan's own defense industries BD can be benefited from it.
> 
> Allah Hafeez





Amm I think if we move towards collabaration and join hands we can become the balancer in SAARC.My point of view is we should empower ourselves ,beleive on our selves and we can become a wolrd power.but right direction is needed for that.


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## BanglaBhoot

Greater coordination between Pakistan and Bangladesh within SAARC will benefit the entire region. I also think that Sri Lanka will be helpful in this regard as they also appear to be concerned about Indian domination. Now that China is an observer member we can make SAARC more relevant for the whole of South Asia. India may interpret this as countries trying to ganging-up against it but in reality it would help to bring greater prosperity for all.


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## niaz

I grew up considering Bengalis ( then East Pakistan) as my brothers and compatriots. The feelings havent changed. 

Whatever happened in 1971 was a calamity and a national disgrace. Last time I was in Pakistan there were still a lot of Bengalis in Karachi. Bangla Deshis are my brothers and I would love to see visa free travel and tariff free trade between the two countries.


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## BanglaBhoot

niaz said:


> I grew up considering Bengalis ( then East Pakistan) as my brothers and compatriots. The feelings havent changed.
> 
> Whatever happened in 1971 was a calamity and a national disgrace. Last time I was in Pakistan there were still a lot of Bengalis in Karachi. Bangla Deshis are my brothers and I would love to see visa free travel and tariff free trade between the two countries.



I agree with the sentiments expressed by you and I hope that we can finally move forward from 1971. While we must not forget the mistakes of the past we can learn from those. I believe that both countries have much to lose from continued hostility and much to gain from friendship and cooperation.


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## salman nedian

100&#37; Agreed  with Niaz and Munshi.but the question is what we can do for that?


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## roadrunner

MBI Munshi said:


> The third option that did come up would have given some equality between Pakistan, India and a Bengal Muslim State that none would be allowed to dominate the others. The difference that would have allowed this to happen was the proposal for a different type of constitutional structure but I do not intend to discuss this possibility any further here.



My feelings on Bangladesh are probably pretty well known. I don't agree that Bangladesh or East Pakistan was discriminated against by West Pakistan - nor even dominated by West Pakistanis, when 3 or 4 of the prime ministers in the first 10 years of Pakistan's inception were of East Pakistani/Bengali roots. Statistics have proved that these prime ministers spent less on East Pakistan than Ayub Khan did in the 60s. Private investment was a different matter. What should have been done, the rich Muhajirs from Bharat should have been forced to live in East Pakistan or something? 

I'm willing to discuss this at length, since noone has been able to disprove my case as yet + I always like a good debate and I'm not one of these docile Pakistanis you get on these types of forums that believe all the nonsense heaped on Pakistan by Bangladeshis or anyone else.


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## Always Neutral

Why would it make more sense for Bangladesh and Pakistan to co-operate vis vis say Burma, Singapore, Thailand etc as they lie in the same geographic locations ? Bangladesh with its large gas reserves must make China and India its buyers as once large economic gas co-operation begins all the economies get interlinked and relations will become better. Pakistan frankly lies in a different geographical location and though both countries have historical ties, economic ties in only certain sectors may only be beneficial. 

Regds


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## BanglaBhoot

roadrunner said:


> My feelings on Bangladesh are probably pretty well known. I don't agree that Bangladesh or East Pakistan was discriminated against by West Pakistan - nor even dominated by West Pakistanis, when 3 or 4 of the prime ministers in the first 10 years of Pakistan's inception were of East Pakistani/Bengali roots. Statistics have proved that these prime ministers spent less on East Pakistan than Ayub Khan did in the 60s. Private investment was a different matter. What should have been done, the rich Muhajirs from Bharat should have been forced to live in East Pakistan or something?
> 
> I'm willing to discuss this at length, since noone has been able to disprove my case as yet + I always like a good debate and I'm not one of these docile Pakistanis you get on these types of forums that believe all the nonsense heaped on Pakistan by Bangladeshis or anyone else.



I think you are probably concentrating too much on the differences rather than the commonalities between the two countries which I think is a more critical issue at this point in time. I am not so conversant about the economic arguments concerning pre-1971 Pakistan as I am from the post-1971 generation and have no recollection of the period. I should, nevertheless, mention that my grandfather was a founder member of the Awami League, a MNA as well as one of the top 10 exporters to West Pakistan during the 1950's and 60's. He was a good friend of Field Marshal Ayub Khan and other senior political figures of Pakistan. After 1971 much of my grandfathers business was destroyed but I think it unnecessary to dwell on these issues as Bangladesh is a country that the people of this region sacrificed their lives for and now with things having changed significantly from 36 years ago we should concentrate on areas of cooperation.


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## salman nedian

frankly speaking i beleive that Kilings of Bangladeshis in 1971 is more a propaganda by India.and we cannot forgive India for creating misunderstandings b/w 2 parts of a Country. I think the best way to take revenge is reuniting the 2 Big Muslim Countries of sub-continent, i do not believe in all the nonsense heaped on Pakistan.and if an Indian say this i would realy oppose that.but in case of a Bangladeshi i can understand the misunderstandings.that's why i always say that we should look forward.


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## HK-47

yes we should move forward true but also with the memories in the back of our heads and the lessons learned from such fighting.the killings weren't all propaganda.and Pak administrators had faults of their own too.so if India was really trying to separate the two,Pak helped them a lot by mistreating the Bangladeshis and fuelling dissent.
anyways I don't care much of the war either.I think Pakistan is a better friend of Bangladesh than India is.I am not anti-India;I just don't like their policies towards us.

Off-topic:Is it true that India have send oil and gas exploration teams in our waters?I heard some reports about it.
does the S.Talpatti island fall within our maritime borders?


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## roadrunner

HK-47 said:


> so if India was really trying to separate the two,Pak helped them a lot by mistreating the Bangladeshis and fuelling dissent.



Pak didn't really mistreat anyone specifically. Dissent was fuelled by Mujib's propaganda speeches that Pak was mistreating East Pakistan for example during the cyclone etc - this was all done at Bharat's behest.


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## BanglaBhoot

I think the point being made by HK47 is that Pakistan omitted to act in the interests of East Pakistan. The cyclone is only one example where West Pakistan failed to take any initiative even after an estimated 3 million died. As Neo and Salman mentioned earlier unless there was some underlying anomalies Indian propaganda would have been useless. Indian propaganda exploited already existing deficiencies they just didn't make it all up they simply exaggerated it but that did not make East Pakistanis feel any less hurt.


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## roadrunner

MBI Munshi said:


> I think the point being made by HK47 is that Pakistan omitted to act in the interests of East Pakistan. The cyclone is only one example where West Pakistan failed to take any initiative even after an estimated 3 million died. As Neo and Salman mentioned earlier unless there was some underlying anomalies Indian propaganda would have been useless. Indian propaganda exploited already existing deficiencies they just didn't make it all up they simply exaggerated it but that did not make East Pakistanis feel any less hurt.



Dude, what's with you and this 3 million figure? The cyclone did claim hundreds of thousands of lives and perhaps it might have edged up till a quarter of a mill, but no way 3 million. 

If you look at the toll from the 2005 earthquake, it was something like the same as the cyclone. Pakistan couldnt cope with an earthquake of this magnitude, so there was no way it could cope with a cyclone of about the same devastation. However, Pakistan did establish an ERC (Emergency Relief Cell) in East Pakistan following the cyclone. Now the main beef the Bangladeshis had (as Mujib mentioned to them), was that the response of the Pakistani government was inadequate for the scale of the disaster. It's was typical for his speeches, a twisting of the truth. There was no way Pakistan could cope with the scale of the disaster *but it did what it could *- just like during the 2005 earthquake it did what it could..but all this was not Indian propaganda. It was Mujib's propaganda which was supported by the Bharatis. There's a volunteer group from somewhere like the Phillipines that went there and said much the same that the Pakistani government did what it could - it would be stupid to have hampered the rescue process with the whole world watching.


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## BanglaBhoot

The figure may be wrong but it seems to be popular but that is not a point I am going to contest. Lets just say a lot of people died. Kissinger gives the figure of 200,000. 

Just for discussions sake could you give me your opinion on the allegation that money from East Pakistan was used to build the capital in Islamabad while virtually no development occurred in the Eastern part. I would like a few references on this issue for research that I am doing on that period and your input would be invaluable to me. 

I hope you will understand that I am just trying to understand better the circumstances of the division in 1971 and India's role. Also what is your opinion on the view expressed by Neo and Salman about the grievances felt by East Pakistan (or even both sides) to which Indian propaganda could easily exploit. In other words, if there was no underlying problems how could Indian propaganda be so effective that it could result in the break up of Pakistan?


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## Adux

Be thankful that you got your freedom.


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## roadrunner

MBI Munshi said:


> The figure may be wrong but it seems to be popular but that is not a point I am going to contest. Lets just say a lot of people died. Kissinger gives the figure of 200,000.
> 
> Just for discussions sake could you give me your opinion on the allegation that money from East Pakistan was used to build the capital in Islamabad while virtually no development occurred in the Eastern part. I would like a few references on this issue for research that I am doing on that period and your input would be invaluable to me.
> 
> I hope you will understand that I am just trying to understand better the circumstances of the division in 1971 and India's role. Also what is your opinion on the view expressed by Neo and Salman about the grievances felt by East Pakistan (or even both sides) to which Indian propaganda could easily exploit. In other words, if there was no underlying problems how could Indian propaganda be so effective that it could result in the break up of Pakistan?



You ask reasonable questions and give the impression of an open mind which is good for the sake of discussion. East Pakistan did produce quite a bit of export, I think more than West Pakistan is what the figures show. However, when Pakistan was formed, the central government was poor, the Muhajirs from Bharat were rich as they owned banks and brought with them plenty of money to Karachi. The rich Muhajirs were not government employees, they contributed private investment all over the country. One example was Adamjee's jute mill which was established in East Pakistan. It was one of the biggest in the world, and produced a lot of income. This was a private mill, which would not have been included in any government budget. I've seen a lot of tables about government spending, but you have to know this ignores private investment. Of course whatever was produced by Adamjee's jute mill was his own money and he might have invested some back into West Pakistan or some into East Pakistan. So government spending figures are just one side of private investment in the early Pakistan, perhaps the East was getting more private investment, it's difficult to say. The more important point was that West Pakistan was much less developed than East Pakistan following Partition. Bengal for example had many more schools, and much better roads etc. The Pakistani government wanted to equal out these inequalities and make more schools in West Pakistan so that both West and East Pakistanis got the same access to education. It needed more money of course. I'll get back to the references, not sure what either neo or salman said, if they repeat it it'll be easier. 

The Bharatis werent involved in the propaganda. Mujib was the mouthpiece of Bharati propaganda. That is what made it effective. He wanted an independent country, Bharat was willing to support him in any way. He sort of sold his soul to the devil there.


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## roadrunner

Adux said:


> Be thankful that you got your freedom.



You rarely have anything intelligent to contribute, so i'd prefer it if you don't post your one line spam in this thread.


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## salman nedian

roadrunner said:


> You rarely have anything intelligent to contribute, so i'd prefer it if you don't post your one line spam in this thread.



Well said!


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## BanglaBhoot

roadrunner said:


> The Bharatis werent involved in the propaganda. Mujib was the mouthpiece of Bharati propaganda. That is what made it effective. He wanted an independent country, Bharat was willing to support him in any way. He sort of sold his soul to the devil there.



This is the only part that I have a real difference of opinion with you. 

I am not an expert on the economic situation of West Pakistan so I cannot comment on those issues without further study. Overall your views do make sense but please forward me the references on the economic questions or if anyone else can help out please let me know. 

In reference to your comment cited above I think you will find that Shiekh Mujib did not expect or want full independence. He was rather aiming for autonomy. This interpretation would explain why he did not declare independence before the March 26, 1971 crackdown and why he meekly surrendered to Pakistani forces. As he had won the 1970 elections he expected to be the Prime Minister of Pakistan but this Bhutto would not accept. Shiekh Mujib then thought autonomy to be the next best option and even Bhutto seemed to see promise in this compromise. It has been shown that Mujib was negotiating with the Pakistan military right up to the last minute and even during his confinement. 

On his release he appeared genuinely surprised that Bangladesh had achieved independence and also without him. The mistake was for the Pakistan military to have gone for the crackdown option as this played directly into Indian hands. Sheikh Mujib had been trying to play India against the Pakistan military hoping for a better settlement for him with Yahya but this ultimately backfired. Once independence was achieved he became completely captive to Indian interests through his nephew Sheikh Fazlul Haq Moni. 

From around 1960 India had been cultivating a few young students in East Pakistan to cause disturbances including Tofail Ahmed, Abdur Razzak and a few others. Later on during the war Moni was also recruited into this set up. Mujib initially did show some interest in dealing with India hence the Agartala conspiracy case but this was really being pushed behind the scenes by some of his family members, student leaders and a number of military personnel. After the crackdown these elements ran the show from Calcutta and then again after independence right up until the 1975 coup. Up to that point Bangladesh had become an Indian satellite state. Prior to independence Mujib had only shown a hesitating interest in India and mainly as a bargaining tool with Yahya but he refused to sign a Faustian pact with New Delhi until 1974 when he agreed to the terms of the 25 years Friendship Treaty whose co signatory was Indira Gandhi. 

You will find the sources for all this information in my book The India Doctrine.


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## Maddy

Munshi,

You wrote a book!! Quite an anchievment i'd say. 

"The India Doctrine" - From an non-indian. That should make interesting reading.

Can post you an e-copy of the book or perhaps a few selected chapters.


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## salman nedian

Actually the Problem was that both the parts of the country were separated from each other by 1000 miles so due to that there was lack of communication due to which the reservations of people of East could not be removed also the Leaders of that time (Bhutto and Mujib) exploited the situation to gain the power.i agree with roadrunner there was earth quake in 2005 but the Government could not react swiftly.same was the case with flood in East Pakistan it as difficult for Government to react quickly in a province which was 1000 miles away, that created doubts in the minds of People of East Pakistan which could not be removed b/c of lack of communication and some powers gained advantage of that situation.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Musharraf's book adequately covers most lucidly the reason why East Pakistan quit. Distance and separation was not quite the reason. It was basically looking down up the Bengalis and the fear that they would be ruling if they acted en masse.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## BanglaBhoot

salman nedian said:


> Amm I think if we move towards collabaration and join hands we can become the balancer in SAARC.My point of view is we should empower ourselves ,beleive on our selves and we can become a wolrd power.but right direction is needed for that.



Pakistan keen to boost trade with Bangladesh

Imtiaz Ahmed Back from Pakistan

The News Today - July 27, 2007

Pakistan is keen to further improve the relationship with Bangladesh, and explore every possibility to increase bilateral trade between the two SARRC countries.

Pakistan Foreign Secretary Reaz Mohammad Khan said this while talking to a group of Bangladeshi journalists in Islamabad recently.

He said both Dhaka and Islamabad are enjoying friendly relations in different sectors and laid stress on economic cooperation between Dhaka and Islamabad and increasing the bilateral trade that is below existing potentials.

The people of Bangladesh and Pakistan enjoy a special and unique relationship based on shared history, culture and traditions, and Dhaka and Islamabad have prospects of expanding relationships in social, economic and cultural arenas to benefit the common man of both the countries, Reaz told the visiting delegation.

He also said members of the civil society and press of the two countries can play a key role in creating positive mindset among the people of the region.

He said Pakistan is interested to ink free trade agreement (FTA) with Bangladesh to reap the full potential of bilateral trade between the two countries.

The bilateral trade between Dhaka and Islamabad is above 300 million dollars that has the potential to increase up to one billion dollars initially provided FTA is signed between the two countries.

He also expressed the hope that in the changed global economic environment, both sides will hold dialogues on FTA as regional trade is gaining momentum worldwide.

He said that trade volume between Pakistan and Sri Lanka substantially increased after both the countries signed a bilateral free trade agreement.

The seventh session of PakistanBangladesh joint economic commission was held in May, 1998 and the two sides held discussions on the possibility of entering joint ventures in textiles and small power plants.

He termed the present conflict in the NWFP as a threat to stability of the region and sought international aid to rehabilitate 4.5 million Afghan refugees in the area.

He said Afghan refugees entered Pakistan due to long war between Afghanistan and the then Soviet Union and that is also a matter of concern to Pakistan.

He acknowledged that a stable Afghanistan is a necessity to strengthen the economic, social and political cooperation in Central Asia.

He said the existing poverty and illiteracy is a major challenge in the regions and in a bid to improve the situation it is necessary to share the experience of each other.

Referring to the issue of 1971, he said it was the tragic part of the history and it is time to reconcile and strengthen the bilateral relations between the two brotherly countries.

He said the world is moving ahead and time has come to concentrate on economic issues in the changed circumstances.

He said the present government is reforming the Madrasah education system in line with modern education system in rural parts of the country.

Reaz Mohammad said the economy of Pakistan has been growing at over seven per cent during the last four years because of a business-friendly policy of the present government.

He claimed that media in Pakistan now enjoys more freedom than it did seven or eight years back, and in recent years 40- 45 electronic media houses have emerged in the market.

Managing Director of Pakistan Television Yousaf Baris Mirza claimed that though PTV is a stateowned television channel, the government intervention is much less than it was eight or nine years ago.

He said that the PTV is trying to run the organization in a professional manner and emergence of private television channels has increased a competition in the market.

Rai Riaz Hussain, Managing Director of Associated Press of Pakistan, the state- owned news agency, criticised the western media to broadcast biased news against the Muslim world, and said press in Bangladesh and Pakistan should play a key role in this situation.

http://www.newstoday-bd.com/frontpage.asp?newsdate=#6968


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## Tiki Tam Tam

The Indo Bangaldesh rail link has had their trial run.

It opens service in September.


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Musharraf's book adequately covers most lucidly the reason why East Pakistan quit. Distance and separation was not quite the reason. It was basically looking down up the Bengalis and the fear that they would be ruling if they acted en masse.



Incorrect ole boy. It was the perception they were being looked down upon, I think you mean thought instead of fear?


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## BanglaBhoot

Salim said:


> The Indo Bangaldesh rail link has had their trial run.
> 
> It opens service in September.



While I don't like the idea the Indians are also now stalling on further meeting for approving the rail link.


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## salman nedian

Munshi!

ho keen is Bangladeshi government to have brotherly relations with Pakistan? and what they are doing for that? also the Banking sector of Pakistan is growing exceptionally well dont u think that "Grameen Bank" should also start their operations in Pakistan?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> Incorrect ole boy. It was the perception they were being looked down upon, I think you mean thought instead of fear?



I wouldn't know. I did not write the book. Musharraf did. Ask him. Maybe he is not as wise as you are!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

MBI Munshi said:


> While I don't like the idea the Indians are also now stalling on further meeting for approving the rail link.



I really would not know the details, but I have seen hectic work being done to make the rail line serviceable up to the border.

I wonder if what you say is right. The Bangladesh Chief is to visit India and he wanted to meet all those of the Indian Army who fought for the Liberation of Bangladesh. And he specifically wanted to go to Connoor to meet Field Marshal Manekshaw.


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## BanglaBhoot

salman nedian said:


> Munshi! ho keen is Bangladeshi government to have brotherly relations with Pakistan? and what they are doing for that? also the Banking sector of Pakistan is growing exceptionally well dont u think that "Grameen Bank" should also start their operations in Pakistan?



The situation in Bangladesh is very uncertain like in Pakistan. There are a majority of Bangladeshis who would like to see a more wary approach to India and a very friendly one with Pakistan. However, the present crisis in Bangladesh could go either way and I cannot predict how things will turn out. I can only suggest both Pakistan and China to keep close watch on events in Bangladesh because it could have far reaching repercussions in all of South Asia and even further.



Salim said:


> I really would not know the details, but I have seen hectic work being done to make the rail line serviceable up to the border.
> 
> I wonder if what you say is right. The Bangladesh Chief is to visit India and he wanted to meet all those of the Indian Army who fought for the Liberation of Bangladesh. And he specifically wanted to go to Connoor to meet Field Marshal Manekshaw.



It appears there has been a return journey of the train service from Dhaka to Kolkata but there appears to be some problem in resolving certain details which is stalling a regular commercial service.

In relation to the diplomatic relations between the two countries the situation as noted above is uncertain and it is impossible to confirm what is in the mind of the government or the military high command. I can only suggest to watch this space


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## akzaman

*When East Pakistan Became Bangladesh*

BY SULTAN REZA

Mr Sultan Reza, is a Bangladeshi-American businessman turned freelance writer. He lives in Falls Church, Virginia, USA and speaks Urdu as fluently as Bengali and English.


The Fall of Dhaka was sudden and abrupt. As late as December 15th 1971, my pro-Pakistan friends kept saying that the Seventh Fleet of the US Navy was on its way and as soon as it reaches the Indian Ocean, India and its ally Russia would back down. Their claim about Chinas intervention to provide air support to Pakistani troops, without which they had become sitting ducks, made more sense. China had already fought a war with India and was considered a more reliable friend of Pakistan. But neither the Americans nor the Chinese showed up. The Indians and the Russians did!

On the morning of December 16th, 1971 around 8 a.m, I heard a rumor that General Arora of the Indian Armed Forces was coming to Dhaka to accept the surrender of General Niazi. By 10 a. m this rumor became the news.

Millat, my bridge partner, who was a co-coordinator of the freedom fighters movement in Bangladesh, confirmed that a General of the Indian Army was at that very moment having a meeting with his Pakistani counter-part at Savar, just outside Dhaka, to discuss the terms and conditions of the ensuing surrender.

An hour later, I came to know that the draft agreement was approved by Pakistan and the formalities of the surrender would take place at Ramna Racecourse in late afternoon.

It actually took place at 5 p.m after General Arora arrived from Calcutta by helicopter. Pro-Bangladesh Bengalis started celebrating and the Pro-Pakistan Bengalis and non-Bengalis started panicking. By noon, one could see Pakistani soldiers heading towards the Ramna Race Course. Then I noticed some flags being hoisted on roof tops. It was a green flag with a red circle on it. Someone explained to me that the green background symbolized the greenery and the red disc represented the rising sun and the sacrifices we made to gain the independence.

I was on my way to Shantinagar from Tipu Sultan Road, when I saw near the Christian graveyard, three Bengalis with guns chasing four Bengalis and two non Bengalis. The crowd was running behind them. Mukti Bahinis, were chasing the Razakars, to kill them. The crowd was shouting Joy Bangla, Joy Bangla and gun shots or blank fire in the air could be seen and heard. I could not feel any joy or excitement. I was relieved, yes, because the liberation war was coming to an end without millions more having to pay the price for it. But I abhorred this revenge part. Why not arrest and hand the suspects over to the authorities and let the court decide? Many Bengalis like me had similar mixed feelings of relief and sorrow. But for those, whose loved ones could only return to their homeland after the departure of the Pakistani troops or those whose daughters, mothers and sisters were raped by the Pakistani Militia and Army, this was a day of rejoice and revenge. They could not touch the defeated Pakistani Army, who had surrendered to the victorious Indian Army and were therefore under their protection. So they went after the civilians and the paramilitary forces  those who had openly supported Pakistan and were called Razakars.

For the Biharis and Razakars, it was doomsday. Bihari was the term used for all non-Bengalis and Razakars were paramilitary forces who had volunteered their services to the Pakistan Army, who utilized them as  Mujahideens to kill the Kafirs by giving them Islamic names like Al-Badr and Al-Shams and misleading them into believing that East Pakistanis were no longer Muslims. Razakars could be a Bihari or even a Bengali. Many of them were hunted and killed by the people who recognized them, supported by the Mukti Bahinis with guns and pistols . Every Bengali became a Freedom Fighter and all the non-Bengalis became Razakars. Those Bengali civilians, even politicians who cooperated with the Pakistan government, were termed as traitors and treated as such.

There were many Bengalis, from other political parties like Muslim League and Jamaat-e- Islami, who did not agree with Awami League mandate of autonomy. Nor did they wish the break up of Pakistan. Some of them even cooperated with the Martial Law government to buy time and to convince the military rulers that what they were doing was not right. Maulvi Fariduddin was one of them. He was a God fearing Muslim and a genuine Bengali. He had been a Member of the National Assembly too. Fariduddin was mercilessly beaten to death. There were many others like him who did what they thought were right and it turned out to be a wrong decision that cost them their lives.

Even Mohammad Idris, who started shooting at the Mukti Bahinis because they had broken up Pakistan, was not a bad person. He was more patriotic than many in West Pakistan and simply could not stand the sight of its armys surrender. He decided to go down fighting for the country he loved most. It is a pity that Pakistan does not appreciate this sense of patriotism and is still making excuses about bringing the Biharis back home. Almost all the non-Bengalis were treated badly after the fall of Dhaka with the exception of the members of Aga Khan community, who had behaved very sensibly by not acting like Maulvi Fariduddin or Mohammad Idris. From the beginning, they followed the command of their leader Aga Khan, to mingle with the local people, respect them and learn their language.

December 16, 1971 was a day of  Saneha, Doorghotona or "Tragedy" for the Muslims of the Indo-Pak subcontinent including a large percentage of Bengali Muslims in East Pakistan, who considered that Yahya Khans reluctance to convene the National Assembly was very unfair and his agreement with Bhutto to keep Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan was a conspiracy. But all of them were not Awami Leaguers and most of them believed that people charged in the Agartala conspiracy case, if found guilty, should be punished. They did not support the break up of Pakistan. They remembered well, the bad treatment their fathers and grand fathers had received from the Hindu Zamindars before the partition of India in 1947 and felt relieved to find Pakistan as their new homeland. Therefore at the beginning only Awami League and its staunch supporters wanted a separation while the majority wanted that the power should be handed over to the person who had won the election.

Sheikh Mujib controlled the majority seat in the National Assembly. Out of 300 National Assembly seats, Awami League had won 167 and Wali Khan had offered to join him with his 30 seats, yet Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto wanted to be the Prime Minister of Pakistan with his only 97 seats. Yahya Khan supported him because he was promised to be made the President. The parties failed to agree on anything or were failed to decided on a solution and Martial Law was declared. Failing to beat the Bengalis into submission, they resorted to committing the greatest genocide in recent history. This atrocious behavior of Pakistani politicians and army generals alienated all the Bengalis of East Pakistan and infuriated many, resulting in the War of Liberation on March 26 itself. At the behest of a Chittagong industrialist Mr. A. K. Khan and on behalf of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, General Zia declared the independence of Bangladesh from Chittagong radio station.

Slowly but steadily, more and more East Pakistanis realized that independence from the clutches of the rulers of West Pakistan was the only way left for them. Their children started going away to India to join the liberation war and they continued to suffer in the hands of what was now the Occupation Army. They sought Indias help, who was anxiously waiting to provide them. This was their chance to retaliate against Pakistan that was calling their part of the Kashmir as  Occupied Territory and fought two wars with them over this issue.

India declared that Pakistan was occupying its Eastern Wing against the will of its people and forcing them to seek shelter across the border. They intervened with the backing of Russia and the result was the creation of the Peoples Republic of Bangladesh - even better than the autonomous East Pakistan that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had initially demanded. A look at Dhaka alone will testify that it turned out to be a great boon in disguise and the reward fully justified the demand for it.

A new generation of Bengali industrialists, entrepreneurs, bureaucrats and diplomats cropped up overnight and started building the city skyward. A look at the Dhaka high-rises puts Calcutta (Kolkata now) to shame.

In the villages too, thanks to NGOs like BRAC and Grameen, people are in sync with the progress that the country has made in the past 35 years. More educated, better skilled and less poor, they certainly look happier than they ever were in the colonial days of British and then with Pakistan. Yet I sometimes feel that we should have retained the name of Pakistan and Mr. Bhutto, if he so desired, could have walked away with his Sindh province and found a name for his new country. Just kidding!

But it is a fact that in 1970, there were more Bengalis in united Pakistan than there were Punjabis or Sindhis or Pathans combined. It was the Muslims of East Bengal who had wholeheartedly supported the Lahore Resolution of 1906 that the Sher-e-Bangla A. K. Fazlul Huq moved and Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah mooted - making the demand for the division of India on the basis of religion. Even though Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, as a Muslim leader and the President of the Indian Congress Party had appealed to the 120 million Indian Muslims to stay back, over 60 millions of them left their home and hearth to migrate to Pakistan. Mostly to West Pakistan and some to East Pakistan - from the neighboring states of Bihar, West Bengal, Orissa and even Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh. For them, it would have been Loves Labor Lost.

My parents migrated from West Bengal to East Bengal, which became East Pakistan. But my grandmother did not. She remained in Calcutta (now Kolkata) and even advised her only son to stay behind. He did not listen to his mother and eventually had to pay a price. My parents admired Mr. Jinnah so much that when he declared that Urdu and Urdu alone will be the state language of Pakistan", they admitted us to an Urdu medium school. But we continued learning and speaking Bengali because that was our mother tongue and she did not know any Urdu. Nor did any of our maternal aunts and uncle know Urdu. After the independence of Bangladesh, we quickly reverted back to Bangla Bhasha. Who wants to be a second class citizen? That is what the non-Bengalis had suddenly become.

After Bangladesh was created and after the 90,000 troops of the Pakistan Army and some civilians who surrendered to the Indian Army were taken to India and after President Yahya Khan resigned and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto became the Prime Minister of what was left of Pakistan, Sheikh Mujib-ur-Rahman was released from the Pakistani jail and sent to London. There he gave the statement (in English) that he was against the creation of Pakistan. Bhutto was vindicated. It restored his credibility having said that Mujib wanted independence. It seemed to me Bongo Bondhu (Sheikh Mujib) was out smarted or was it a condition of his release?

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman returned to Dhaka on January 10, 1972. A proclamation of Independence, adopted and formally announced by the Bangladesh Government in Exile on April 17, 1971 had declared that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was the President of The Peoples Republic of Bangladesh, Tajuddin Ahmed the Prime Minister and Nazrul Islam, the Vice President. Nazrul Islam had signed it as the Acting President in the absence of President Sheikh Mujibur Rahman who was locked up in a Pakistani jail. Some say that it was only after he reached London that he was told that Pakistan had lost the war and Bangladesh had won the war of liberation. I do not buy this simply because I cannot believe that Mr Bhutto would unconditionally release the  Big Fish without laying any fresh bait. It sounds fishy.

I was there at the Tejgaon airport when Sheikh Mujibur Rahman returned to a heros welcome. M illions of his countrymen came from far flung areas and villages to catch a glimpse of their Bongo Bondhu. Advocate Kamal Hossain was with him. It was rumored that because of his affinity to Urdu, he had betrayed the champion of the Bengali Language Movement, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. First thing that Sheikh Shaheb did was to introduce Kamal Hossain as his friend in need who , he said was a loyal friend indeed. He called him a proud citizen of Bangladesh just like him. I personally was impressed and liked the gesture and felt encouraged that with his arrival the riot among Bengalis and Biharis would stop and this racial problem of Bengalis seeking revenge against the Biharis would come to an end.

I also hoped that like Kamraj of the Indian Congress, he would resign from the office of the President and continue as the Party Chief of the Awami League allowing Mr Tajuddin to run the government under his guardianship, supervision if necessary. Something that Sonia Gandhi is doing now. I was disappointed on both counts. He did resign from the post of the President but only to become the Prime Minister of Bangladesh. Mr. Tajuddin was sent a prepared resignation letter to sign on, which he did, and Sheikh Mujibur Rahman became the Prime Minister of Bangladesh that very day. Justice Sayeed Chowdhury was sworn in as the figure head President which Mujib refused to be. He then introduced the one party system BAKSAL, which he called the 2nd. Revolution.

Mujib now made new enemies. He changed the constitution and once again became the President of Bangladesh on January 24, 1975. Sheikh Mujibur was the Father of the Nation and the most beloved and respected person in Bangladesh at the time of its independence. He could have been the King Maker for the rest of his life, but he decided to become the king himself and ended up losing his life.

With the deportation of the Pakistani Army and Militia and the disappearance of Razakars - the paramilitary voluntary force of the Pakistan Army, people in the streets once again started rejoicing. Army remained the main topic and all kinds of jokes and slogans surfaced about them. Some real and some made up. Some were even taken from Moin Akhtar shows. For instance, there was this story about an Army Major and his wife being stopped at the gates of Dhaka Inter-Continental Hotel by a Pathan Sentry. The guard asked the Major to show his Denty ( identity) card. He said that he was Major so and so and this was his wife and they were going inside the hotel to watch a cultural show. Denty cards?" the sentry insisted.  I have left it at home the Major replied. He was getting annoyed and felt insulted by being questioned like this in front of his wife. Without blinking an eyelid and looking at the wife, the Pathan pondered aloud  What is this? The thing that he should have left at home, he brought along and the thing that he should have brought with him, he left that at home ?

Similarly there was this joke about two soldiers walking inside the Thetari Bazaar with an intention to bully the hawkers who were selling chickens. They asked the first one:

 What do you feed your chicken?  He said that I feed them gaum Which means wheat. With a kick at his butt, he was admonished with these words: "We send wheat from West Pakistan to feed the men and women and you feed it to hens and ###### ?

When the next hawker was asked the same question, he said that he was feeding them Chawool (Rice ) He too received a kick and was sternly told There is no rice to feed the people and you are feeding it to the birds? 

The 3rd.hawker was a Dhakayeah Kutti, a native of Dhaka, well known for their wit and humor. When asked, what he fed his chickens, he said :  I do nothing of the sort.  Early in the morning, every day, I give a Shikki ( a Quarter or 25 paisa ) to each of my birds and they buy and eat whatever they fancy You do the right thing. The soldiers remarked and went away. These jokes may or may not have been made up by the people who had suffered from the indignity and humiliation of rude behavior of its own army that they once loved and respected.

But this is what I know to be a fact. One day I met a staff of my friend Somji who was my competitor in jute business but always helped me out when I got stuck with the pricing of hessien and sacking. He was a gem of a person. I noticed an expensive Omega watch in Aslams wrist and asked when did he get it. He said "yesterday while I was riding my bike in front of Gulistan cinema, one Swati Militia stopped me and asked for my citizen watch. I had to give it to him. He tied it on his wrist, next to three other watches that he was already wearing. I complained Khan Saheb, you already have three other watches and you decided to take away my one and only watch? The man said You do not have any other watch I said  No So he took out the first watch that he had on his wrist and gave it to me. "This is it. Not a bad exchange Aslam smiled.

I laughed, thinking about one day when a Militia was frantically looking for a building. He went around asking :Sona Ka Bangla Kahan Hai ? Perhaps someone had half understood the Rabindra Nath Tagore song  Amar Shonar Bangla, Ami Tomai Bhalo Bashi (This is our National Anthem now.) and told him that in Dhaka, they have Bungalows that are made of gold. Mercifully, those army Jawans and Militia kids, who were made to believe the infidelity story of the Bengalis and fairy tales of the Bangla Desh, were now sitting in Indian prison camps near Agra and the slogan in the streets of Dhaka was: "Merein tou Shaheed, Marain tou Ghazi aur Surrender Karey to Niazi. Meaning that if you get killed, you are Shaheed, if you kill, you are Ghazi but if you surrender, you are Niazi

This was a way of making fun of the Pakistan Army who had declared Bengalis as Kafirs and used Islamic terms like Al-Badr and Al-Shams to subdue them and yet had surrendered in such a large number to Indian army, whose Commander-in-Chief Field Marshall Manikshaw had simply outfoxed them. His larger army by-passed the entrenched forces of the Pakistan army at the various cantonments of East Pakistan and reached Dhaka without facing much resistance. Perhaps never before, in the history of Islam, more than 90, 000 Muslims had surrendered to a Hindu force, no matter how big. But again, never before a Muslim army had committed an act of genocide against its own Muslim countrymen.

Cheers and jeers apart, after downfall of Dhaka on December 16th 1971, I personally got very worried about my school friends, who were Urdu speaking and living in district towns of Khulna and Mymensingh. Most of them had already left for Karachi or London but one of my childhood friend Matiullah Khan was from Bihar and he was caught up in Khulna. He was working as an Assistant to my brother-in-law, who was the Chief Engineer at the Crescent Jute Mills, in Khalispur, Khulna. When army cracked down on the night of March 25, 1971, my brother-in-law had to run away to his home town in Noakhali and he resigned from his job. Matiullah was given the charge by the army to run the workshop and now the army had gone. I knew that he would be in trouble. So I started calling and could not trace him. The Security Officer of the Mill said that he was not there but he was last seen at the Sports Club of the Residential Quarters by the side of the river. I decided to go to Khalishpur with another friend Majeed who was more fluent in Bengali. Majeed was nearly killed by a Bengali Razakar but managed to save his life by speaking in Urdu to a Punjabi soldier. He was also a very good singer and often sang Rabindra Sangeet for us. So we flew to Jessore and went by bus to Khalishpur. There someone told us that all the Biharis were either killed or arrested. Those living were placed in a camp under the protection of the Indian Army from Bihar. We went and found Matiullah. He was still dazed by the killings he had witnessed, while sitting at the Officers Club. Killing of Bihari men, women and children took place with swords and knives across the river at the ghat of Star Jute Mill. Majid and I were ashamed to hear his sad story but at the same time we felt proud that we had risked our own lives to save Matiullahs. We brought him back to Dhaka. He is now living in Karachi. I was also lucky to be able to safely see off another Bihari friend and his family and my wifes Punjabi friend and her family at the Dhaka airport after the 30th of December. But I could not save the life of another good friend Riaz, who played cricket with us. An amiable and harmless person, who copied Khan Mohammad while bowling, was a manager of the United Bank in Mymensingh. I heard later that he was put in jail for ten days, then killed.

I had always wanted to drive to Calcutta and then drive up to Delhi through the Grand Trunk road that was originally built by Sher Shah Suri. I got the necessary permission from the Government of Bangladesh and convinced my wife to come along. I also invited my brother Naim and my nephew Yusuf to join us. Depending on who you are, you can call it an adventure or a stupid act. The treacherous road to Calcutta from Dhaka via Aricha, Kushtia and Jessore had land mines laid out by the Mukhti Bahini for the Pakistan Army and by the Pakistani Forces for the Indian invaders. We had to get off from the road at some places and drive through the Dhan-Khet or paddy field. It took us 18 hours to reach Calcutta. Here I found one of my stay back aunts sadly sitting in the dark without even lighting a candle. I asked her if the power was out. She said, No, I just did not feel like switching on the light, thinking that Pakistan has moved away from us. We felt so comfortable and strong when Dhaka was a part of Pakistan.

Next day, we were treated like film stars wherever we parked our car. Returning to our car after watching a Bengali movie, very often we would find garlands at the windshield of the car which had an East Pakistani number plate EBD 3. When told that we were planning to drive up to Delhi, we were advised even by strangers not to travel through Bihar at day time, as they were very mad at the Bengalis for killing the Bihari immigrants. We left in the evening. Before reaching Banaras, the clutch plate of our car got burnt and we had to leave the car in a garage until we could purchase and bring back a new clutch plate from Delhi.

Continuing our journey by train, I had to face one of the most embarrassing moments of my life. We were traveling Janata class and the compartment was full. A punditji with a big mustache, made place for all of us and then asked me if we were Muslims. After I said yes, very politely he narrated the story of how, once when he was traveling from Karachi to Lahore in First Class with a First Class ticket, a few Pathan passengers entered the compartment and asked him to sit on the floor because he was a Hindu. Then he said, again very politely You meat eater Muslims have very little patience as compared to us vegetarian Hindus. See, how nicely we made place for all of you Feeling embarrassed, all I could say was We are Bengalis, not Pathans. Other than that, we received a favorable treatment by the Indian Railway officials, who thought that we were Freedom Fighters from Bangladesh.

Our one page passport was mistaken to be a travel pass and more than one booking clerk told us that we did not require tickets because we were Mukti Bahinis. For fear of being apprehended as Bihari refugees from Bangladesh, we were careful not to speak in Urdu, even after reaching New Delhi. The clutch parts we were looking for were not available there and on the return trip, the boys had to get down in Banaras while we continued to Calcutta. They arranged to bring the car back to Calcutta on a truck and narrated this interesting story about the Banarsi mechanic who opened the hood of the Volkswagen and yelled, "This car has no engine This is how unfamiliar the Indians were of foreign cars in 1971.

Under pressure from Maulana Bhashani and following his own election mandate, within three months of assuming power, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman nationalized major industries, trades and banks. The British Delegation that had come to convince him to not nationalize the jute trade at this critical juncture, was turned back without the Prime Minister taking the time to even see them and explain his point of view. When I was driving them back to the airport, we saw Mujib addressing a group of beggars with their list of demand. Bill Duncan, the leader of the Jute Delegation remarked that  Perhaps he is not wasting his time. He must learn to beg because business, he does not understand. Obviously, he felt insulted by Mujibs refusal to meet the delegation that he was leading. But during those same days, I was surprised and rather annoyed to see a similar statement made by US Secretary of State, Dr. Henry Kissinger. He had described Bangladesh, as a basket case. Looking back, I now realize that by saying that, Kissinger had in fact done a favor to Bangladesh. Since its inception in 1971, Bangladesh has been receiving aids and grants to the tune of nearly one billion dollars annually. It still remains one of the poorest countries and many of its loans are routinely written off.

In 1970-71, the Republican Government of Richard Nixon had to take a pro-Pakistan stand against India and Russia as far as the separation of the Eastern Wing of Pakistan was concerned. But Nixon never considered sending the Seventh Fleet to Indian Ocean in aid of Pakistan. Something that the Pakistanis were so desperately hoping for during its 1971 war with India. In spite of all the NATO and SEATO pacts that the USA had signed with Pakistan, it did not feel obliged to defend Pakistan against India and Russia.

The genocide in East Pakistan was no secret to the American public or its government. Even though at times the Republican tried to look the other way and called this issue an internal affair of Pakistan, there were people like George Harrison of UK, who lent their ears and opened the eyes of the Americans by holding concerts for Bangladesh

The refugees had spilled over to India and India was smart enough to solicit the support of Russia and the United Nations to send back the Muslim Bengalis to Muslim Bangladesh. Nixon was no Bush. He fully understood the consequences of going to war with India and Russia away from home. He did not want to be responsible for losing American lives for the sake of Pakistan retaining its Eastern Wing. Yet, after the fall of East Pakistan, when it appeared that India would continue with the annihilation of Pakistan in the West, it was Nixon who warned India and forced Indira Gandhi to declare a cease-fire. Otherwise India was planning to overrun Lahore and perhaps even Islamabad. I therefore think that Pakistanis should be thankful to America for at least keeping a part of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnahs dream alive. Just as well. Today Pakistan is Americas biggest ally against Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. Could Nixon be so farsighted?

I left Bangladesh after the nationalization of its jute trade and migrated to the United States at the end of 1972. I had come to USA for a visit with my wife and child in July 1972 and leaving them here, I went back to Dhaka a month later with the hope that jute trade would not be nationalized and I would call them back. After they nationalized banks, most trades and industries, I tried to find a suitable job for myself in Bangladesh. But I was told by a director of the jute board that I had my turn and now it was their turn. So, instead of getting my family back to Dhaka from USA, I decided to join them in Chicago and then moved to Metropolitan Washington DC area.

After spending some time here, I realized that Sheikh Mujibs demand for autonomous East Pakistan was not as outrageous as Pakistan made it out to be. Over here, each state has that sort of autonomy, with their own flag and even flower. As a matter of fact, Maulana Abul Kalam Azads idea of United States of India was even better. With no big budget for defense, United States of India would be such a viable country today.

Of course it needed more planning and a mutual understanding to treat the various provinces justly and fairly like the agreement that the original thirteen states of USA signed with each other. The Constitution that the Founding Fathers of USA drafted, could have served as a sample. But our Founding Fathers started fighting with each other even before the British left and we were not European immigrants like the Americans here are.

Bangladesh Minister for Jute, Mr. M. R. Siddiqui, became the Bangladesh Ambassador to USA. I knew him very well and often visited the Embassy near Connecticut Avenue. Because of my fluency of the Urdu language, a First Secretary at the Embassy once remarked that since I speak such good Urdu, I could not possibly be a Bengali. Narrow mindedness is a big handicap that we Bengalis suffer from. Mainly because we do not want to learn other languages. Urdu, Persian and English were the court languages of the British Government in India that broadened the minds of its intelligentsia.

In 1974, I read a story in the front page of the Washington Post that went like this; Two young boys in their twenties were arrested and brought to a police station in Dhaka, Bangladesh on suspicion of a robbery and rape case. The Officer-in-Charge telephoned the Police Commissioner, described the boys and asked  What should I do with them? The Commissioner told him to hold the line and called the Home Minister, describing the situation and asking the same question. The Minister in turn called the Prime Minister and informed him that two boys of his sons age and description were arrested. What should be done with them?

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman gave a shout and asked Hasinas mother: Are Kamal and Jamal home? After being told that they were resting in their rooms, PM told the Minister and the Minister told the Commissioner and the commissioner told the OC to lock the boys in the cell and file a charge against them.

The Washington Post reporter remarked that while this story may have been fabricated to illustrate a point, it is true that the situation in Bangladesh is very much like this. The sons of the Prime Minister are doing whatever they want and they are protected by their parents.

Within a year of reading this story, one morning in August, 1975 when I opened my front door and grabbed the Washington Post lying on my door mat, I was shocked to read the headline. It said something to the effect: SHIEKH MUJIB UR RAHMAN AND HIS 14 FAMILY MEMBERS SLAIN IN THEIR DHANMONDI HOUSE.

I took the newspaper to my mother-in-law who was visiting us at that time. She started crying thinking of her husband who was a friend of Mujib. How could a man so popular, well loved and respected only three and a half years ago, be now hated so much that his entire family would be ruthlessly killed. It was the shortest span of time during which love turned into hatred.

Footnote:

My Phoopi used to mention about an old lady she once saw many years ago. Some time after Bangladesh came into existence, she went to Makkah for Umrah. There she saw this old lady, touching the cover of Kabbah and praying to Allah:  O Allah, whoever has been responsible for the death of my family members, make them pay a price with their own death and the death of their family members.

As I sat back and reflected upon the old lady's prayer, I recalled that both of Indira Gandhi's sons, Sanjay and Rajiv Gandhi died violently. She herself met a violent death. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto got hanged - his eldest son Murtaza got murdered and his youngest son Shahnawaz died of poisoning. Sheikh Mujibur and all his family members except for Shaikh Hasina were eliminated by his own army.

Were these people or any one of them responsible for the death of the old lady's family? Had Allah punished them in response to her call? Or is it just co-incidence?

May Allah guide us and our political leaders to the right path and forgive us and our families for all of our sins. He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful and oft-forgiving.

But I have not seen anywhere in the Holy Quran saying that He is Always Forgiving!

http://www.despardes.com/articles/jan06/20...k-became-bd.asp

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## salman nedian

We need to clear some things.First of all Pakistanis never considered Bengalis as non-muslims,we cant think like that.Al-badar and Al-shams were formed to fight against the Indian Agents who were creating disturbance in East Pakistan not to fight with our own people.Actually the situation was so confusing that we had to fight against our 
people.Who wants that? 

Secondly the decision of Making 'Urdu' the National language by Quaid-e-Azam was due to the fact that urdu was the communication language for all the provinces.can a Punjabi communicate with a Bengali with out Urdu? 

Yes there were problems in a new born Country where people were not educated and democratic system was not so strong thats why that tragedy happened.

Have u ever heard that Bengalis were kiled in Pakistan after 1971 incident.No because we never considered them as separate entity may be some government officers thought like that but they were very small in numbers.
There is a bengali colony beside my house in Karachi where Bangalis(I would not call them Bangladeshis they are Pakistanis and living here before 1971)live.they are living as equal citizen of Pakistan.

I have never seen my Uncle(chacha) who was a Major in Pakistan Army and was in East Pakistan.he never came,but i dont have any hatred in my heart against Bangladesh as no one in Pakistan.






> Continuing our journey by train, I had to face one of the most embarrassing moments of my life. We weretraveling Janata class and the compartment was full. A punditji with a big mustache, made place for all of us and then asked me if we were Muslims. After I said yes, very politely he narrated the story of how, once when he was traveling from Karachi to Lahore in First Class with a First Class ticket, a few Pathan passengers entered the compartment and asked him to sit on the floor because he was a Hindu. Then he said, again very politely You meat eater Muslims have very little patience as compared to us vegetarian Hindus. See, how nicely we made place for all of you Feeling embarrassed, all I could say was We are Bengalis, not Pathans. Other than that, we received a favorable treatment by the Indian Railway officials, who thought that we were Freedom Fighters from Bangladesh.



I can only say that come and see here how we treat non-muslims.





> My Phoopi used to mention about an old lady she once saw many years ago. Some time after Bangladesh came into existence, she went to Makkah for Umrah. There she saw this old lady, touching the cover of Kabbah and praying to Allah:  O Allah, whoever has been responsible for the death of my family members, make them pay a price with their own death and the death of their family members.
> 
> As I sat back and reflected upon the old lady's prayer, I recalled that both of Indira Gandhi's sons, Sanjay and Rajiv Gandhi died violently. She herself met a violent death. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto got hanged - his eldest son Murtaza got murdered and his youngest son Shahnawaz died of poisoning. Sheikh Mujibur and all his family members except for Shaikh Hasina were eliminated by his own army.
> 
> Were these people or any one of them responsible for the death of the old lady's family? Had Allah punished them in response to her call? Or is it just co-incidence?
> 
> May Allah guide us and our political leaders to the right path and forgive us and our families for all of our sins.
> 
> He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful and oft-forgiving.
> 
> But I have not seen anywhere in the Holy Quran saying that He is Always Forgiving!




this is what we all have to think! The above mentioned personalities commited a crime by disintegrating Pakistan.Now a wrapper is needed to hide that sad part of history


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## akzaman

*Prelude to Liberation War *

Bily I Ahmed

The Liberation War that lasted roughly for nine months in 1971 culminated in Bangladesh's independence on 16 December 1971. The prelude to war includes many factors, which are mentioned below.

Economic exploitation

West Pakistan, consisting of four provinces: Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and North-West Frontier Province, dominated the divided country and received more money than the more populous East. See table.

Between 1948 and 1960, East Pakistan's export earnings had been 70 per cent while it only received 25 per cent of import earning. 

East Pakistan had 11 textile mills while West had 9. In 1971, the number of textile mills in the West had grown to 150 while that in the East had only gone up to 26. 

A transfer of 2.6 billion dollars (in 1971 exchange rates) worth resources was also done over time from East Pakistan to West Pakistan. 

Language factor

In 1948, Mohammad Ali Jinnah declared in Dhaka that "Urdu, and only Urdu", a language that was only spoken in the West by Muhajirs and in the East by Biharis, would be the sole official language for all of Pakistan. Bangla was spoken by the majority of people. 

East Pakistan revolted and several students and civilians lost their lives on February 21, 1952. The day is revered in Bangladesh and in West Bengal as the Language Martyrs' Day. 

Bitter feelings among the East Pakistanis never ceased to grow, especially with repeated arrivals of military rulers. Later, in remembrance of the 1952 killings, UNESCO declared February 21 as the International Mother Language Day. 

Hardships

The Bengalis faced economic, linguistic and political difference and this difference reached a climax when in 1970 the Awami League, the largest political party in East Pakistan, led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, won a landslide victory in the national elections winning 167 of the 169 seats allotted for East Pakistan and a majority of the 313 total seats in the National Assembly. This gave the Awami League the right to form a government. 

However, the leader of Pakistan People's Party, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, refused to allow Sheikh Mujibur Rahman to become the Prime Minister of Pakistan. Instead, he proposed a notion of two Prime Ministers. Bhutto also refused to accept Mujibur Rahman's Six Points.

On 3 March 1971, the two leaders (of the two wings) along with the President General Yahya Khan met in Dhaka to decide the fate of the country. Talks failed. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman called for a nation-wide strike. 

Military preparation for genocide 

General Tikka Khan was flown in to Dhaka to become the Governor of East Bengal. East-Pakistani judges, including Justice Siddique, refused to swear him in. 

MV Swat, a ship of the Pakistani Navy, carrying ammunition and soldiers, was harbored in Chittagong Port and the Bengali workers and sailors at the port refused to unload the ship. A unit of East Pakistan Rifles refused to obey commands to fire on Bengali demonstrators, beginning a mutiny of Bengali soldiers. 

Between 10 and 13 March, Pakistan International Airlines cancelled all their international routes to urgently fly "Government Passengers" to Dhaka. These so-called "Government Passengers" were almost exclusively Pakistani soldiers in civil uniform. 




Bangabandhu's speech of 7 March

On March 7 1971, Bangabandhu (Sheikh Mujibur Rahman) gave a speech at the Racecourse Ground (now called the Suhrawardy Udyan). In this speech he mentioned a further four-point condition to consider the National Assembly Meeting on March 25: 

-The immediate lifting of martial law. 
-Immediate withdrawal of all military personnel to their barracks. 
-An inquiry into the loss of life. 
-Immediate transfer of power to the elected representative of the people before the assembly meeting on March 25. 

He urged "his people" to turn every house into a fort of resistance. He closed his speech saying, "The struggle this time is for our freedom. The struggle this time is for our independence." 

Operation Searchlight

On the night of 25 March, Pakistan Army began a violent effort to suppress the Bengali opposition. Before carrying out these acts, all foreign journalists were systematically deported from Bangladesh. Bengali members of military services were disarmed. The operation was called Operation Searchlight by Pakistani Army and was carefully devised by several top-ranked army generals to "crush" the Bengalis. 

Although the genocide focused on the provincial capital, Dhaka, the process of ethnic cleansing (elimination) was also carried out all around Bangladesh. Residential halls of the University of Dhaka were particularly targeted. 

The only Hindu residential hall the Jagannath Hall was destroyed by the Pakistani armed forces, and an estimated 600 to 700 of its residents were murdered. 

Hindu areas all over Bangladesh suffered particularly heavy blows. By midnight, Dhaka was literally burning; especially the Hindu dominated eastern part of the city. Time magazine reported on August 2, 1971, "The Hindus, who account for three-fourths of the refugees and a majority of the dead, have borne the brunt of the Muslim military hatred." 

Sheikh Mujib was arrested on the night of March 25-26, 1971 at about 1:30 a.m. (per Radio Pakistan's news on March 29, 1971), which means effectively on March 26, 1971. 

Declaration of independence

On 26 March, the nation waged an armed struggle against the Pakistani occupation forces following the killings of the night of 25 March. The Pakistani forces arrested Sheikh Mujib, who, through a wireless message, had called upon the people to resist the occupation forces [source: The Daily Star, March 26 2005]. Mujib was arrested on the night of March 25-26, 1971 at about 1:30 a.m. (per Radio Pakistan's news on March 29, 1971), which means effectively on March 26, 1971. On 26 March 1971, M A Hannan, an Awami League leader from Chittagong is said to have made the first announcement of the declaration of independence over radio.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman signed an official declaration that read:

Bangladesh is a sovereign and independent country. On Thursday night West Pakistani armed forces suddenly attacked the police barracks at Rajarbagh and the EPR headquarters at Pilkhana in Dhaka. 

Many innocent and unarmed people have been killed in Dhaka city and other places of Bangladesh. Violent clashes between EPR and Police on the one hand and the armed forces of Pakistan on the other are going on. 

The Bengalis are fighting the enemy with great courage for an independent Bangladesh. May God aid us in our fight for freedom. Joy Bangla.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman 25 March 1971

(Source: "The History of the Liberation Movement in Bangladesh" by J. S. Gupta) 

A telegram reached some students in Chittagong. They realised the message could be broadcast from Agrabad Station of Radio Pakistan. The message was translated to Bangla by Dr Manjula Anwar. They failed to secure permission from higher authorities to broadcast the message. Failing to secure the permission the students crossed Kalurghat Bridge into an area controlled by East Bengal Regiment under Major Ziaur Rahman. Bengali soldiers guarded the station as engineers prepared for transmission. At 19:45 on 26 March, 1971, Major Ziaur Rahman broadcast another announcement of the declaration of independence on behalf of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, which is as follows. 

This is Shadhin Bangla Betar Kendro. I, Major Ziaur Rahman, at the direction of Bangabandhu Mujibur Rahman, hereby declare that the independent People's Republic of Bangladesh has been established. At his direction, I have taken command as the temporary Head of the Republic. In the name of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, I call upon all Bengalis to rise against the attack by the West Pakistani Army. We shall fight to the last to free our Motherland. By the grace of Allah, victory is ours. Joy Bangla.

Kalurghat Radio Station's transmission capability was limited. The message was picked up by a Japanese ship in Bay of Bengal and then re-transmitted by Radio Australia and later the British Broadcasting Corporation. 

26 March 1971 is hence considered the official Independence Day and according to all Bangladeshi sources, the name Bangladesh was in effect henceforth. 

Indeed, the Bengalis with the assistance of Mitra Bahini- the allied forces, freed their motherland from the Pakistani oppressors. By His grace the victory was ours - Joy Bangla.
http://www.thedailystar.net/suppliments/2006/independence_day/indp16.htm

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## salman nedian

was all that good?  

How sad the fact is that Muslims of Pakistan faught with each other.


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## Adux

We have Salim here how has actually fought in the 1971 war, retired as Indian Army Brigadier. He would be best to tell you about the atrocities commited by the Eastern PA, and the designs of the Indian Army


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## Bull

salman nedian said:


> How sad the fact is that Muslims of Pakistan faught with each other.



Yes very sad and deplorable. I wonder why they were not charged for 'crimes against humanity'?


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## roadrunner

Adux said:


> We have Salim here how has actually fought in the 1971 war, retired as Indian Army Brigadier. He would be best to tell you about the atrocities commited by the Eastern PA, and the designs of the Indian Army



..and here's Salim in action


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## BanglaBhoot

The idea should be to live in the present and build strategies to deal with what is happening now. Dwelling on the past will not bring back the dead. The 1971 generation had the opportunity to raise these issues at the time but did not. In fact they went on to mess up the country and did their fair share of killing, raping and robbing so no one has clean hands in any of this. We can instead learn from the mistakes that were made and make sure they are not repeated.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

salman,

I will leave it at that.

There is nothing to be gained to raking up history since all knows what happened.

While you can claim that those mentioned by you were responsible i.e Indians and Banglabandhu and his party and Bengalis in general, do look inward also and see what led/helped them to it and who really is responsible.

It would be wonderful to believe that the West Pakistanis did not look down on Bengalis. But I would honestly be surprised if you would like us to believe that the Bengalis of East Pakistan all flew over the cuckoos' nest!


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## BanglaBhoot

In an article written by a friend of mine a few years ago he showed how racial and regional stereotypes existed on all sides. While West Pakistanis did look down upon East Pakistanis it also worked the other way around with Muslim Bengalis feeling that the Pakistani Punjabis were all brawn and no brains and that those were given in a larger proportion to the East Pakistanis by God. The reason that such racial stereotypes led to civil war (and independence) was because one side had guns and was prepared to use it with out thinking of the wider consequences. Anyway, as I have repeatedly been saying raking over the embers of history will not bring back the dead but we can learn from what happened.

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## Tiki Tam Tam

Comparative economics.
http://www.virtualbangladesh.com/economy/stats.html


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## akzaman

*The Last Days of Pakistan: Recollections of a Civil Servant*

Azizul Jalil, USA

In March 1969, President Ayub Khan had convened a roundtable conference in Rawalpindi. It was a last ditch attempt to save his endangered position and arrive at a consensus among leaders of East and West Pakistan to maintain the integrity of Pakistan. 

The conference failed to achieve its purpose and there was terrible uncertainty in the country. In East Pakistan, there was an ongoing movement to assert its full rights within Pakistan, which often turned violent. East Pakistans governor, Monem Khan had become very unpopular in East Pakistan and even hated by the people. Ayub decided to sacrifice him and appoint Dr. M.N. Huda in his place. Then, serving in the presidents secretariat as a Deputy Secretary, I had the opportunity to watch these developments closely because of my frequent visits to the East Pakistan House in Rawalpindi and conversations with the leaders and high officials of the province.

The day after Monem Khans replacement was announced, I received a call from his secretary to meet the governor in the evening. One other Bengali officer was also invited. When I entered the living room of the governors suite in East Pakistan House, I found Monem Khan standing near a door, clad in kurta/ pajama, literally trembling in nervousness. 

When we all sat down, he went on a monologue for a few minutes about what was happening in Pakistan-- chaos, lawlessness and lack of respect for the authority of the government. He spoke not from strength, but from extreme helplessness and despair. He asked us, at the time relatively junior of the senior officers in the Pakistan government, whether it was not time for the military to bring order in the country. We told him that the military would intervene only in their own self-interest and on their own terms. They would also time it accordingly. Obviously, Monem was hoping for a different answer to get some reassurance for his troubled mind.

Monem Khan then said something, which I will never forget. I later wondered whether he had a premonition of things that would later happen to him. Literally shaking in fear, the old man said he would soon return to Dhaka. He recalled with a sigh that the remains of Ayubs father had been taken out of his grave at Nehala (near Rawalpindi), and dishonoured. Monem Khan feared that people might try to do the same after assassinating him. However, if he had to die he would like to die in nijer desh (own country). We knew what could happen to him once out of power and government protection. There was no consolation to offer--we remained silent. What happened to him in 1971 is widely known. 

The governor-designate Dr. Huda was a teacher of mine at the Dhaka University and we were quite close. He, then a provincial finance minister, called me to the East Pakistan House and requested the urgent transfer of two Bengali officers of the central cadres then occupying important positions in Dhaka. He thought that they were too close to Monem Khan and the transfers were essential to run the administration his way. 

The matter was takenup with M.H. Sufi, the Cabinet Secretary, who was also in charge of the establishment division. He told me that since the Governor-designate had made the request, it was not important that the request was not made directly to the secretary and that Dr. Huda had not even taken the oath of office. We should proceed immediately to accommodate him. We issued the orders of transfer within two days. Meanwhile, Dr. Huda went back to Dhaka and was sworn-in. However, after a few days on March 25, Yahya Khan declared martial law and took over powers. Dr. Huda ceased to be the governor and General Muzaffaruddin, the GOC 14 Division took charge as the provincial martial law administrator. The officers were transferred nonetheless.

In the summer of 1970, the Planning Commission had constituted an advisory panel of academic and professional economists to consider the macroeconomic and overall issues relating to the draft Fourth Five-Year Plan (FYP) for 1970-75. At that time, I got a call in my office in the Economic Affairs Division (EAD) in Islamabad from Dr. Mazharul Huq, my old teacher at the Dhaka University. He was the Chairman of the panel, which had equal number of senior East and West Pakistani economists. 

Dr. Huq complained that he had not been provided with any facility for his work, not even a steno/typist with a typewriter and stationary. Although I was not officially concerned with the panel, I took up the matter with the high officials of the planning commission and the EAD (happened to be West Pakistanis). They told me that they had not received any official request in that regard. 

Finding no alternative, I asked my personal assistant, a Bengali, whether he was willing to go with me when the office closed (after 1:30 pm), take out the big typewriter in my office (completely irregular and punishable) and provide help to Dr. Huq. He unhesitatingly agreed. I picked him up from his quarters, went back to the secretariat to pick up the typewriter, and drove from Islamabad to the East Pakistan House in Pindi where the Bengali economists were staying. After discussing some issues with the panel members, I left the secretary to work with them returning at night to pick him up. 

The secretary refused to accept a modest compensation from me for his services, telling me that he was happy to work for the Bengali cause. The panel deliberated for some days, failed to come to an agreed recommendation and ended with the economists of each wing submitting two separate reports. 

The cabinet that Yahya formed after imposing martial law had five members from East Pakistan. None of them had any political background except Dr. A, M. Malik, who was the senior-most. Before submission of Pakistans Fourth Five Year Plan (FYP) to the cabinet for approval, we, the activist Bengali civil servants in the central government (Dr. Sattar, Obaidullah Khan and me) approached the East Pakistani ministers. 


We had serious objections to the Planning Commissions proposals and allocation of funds for East Pakistan, which were less than fifty percent of the total. It did not recognize the existing disparity between East and West Pakistan and the fact that East Pakistan had fifty-six percent of the population. To these, the Planning Commissions response was that West Pakistan was geographically far-flung and had a larger size. East Pakistan did not have the absorptive capacity due to implementation weaknesses and lack of local funds. They famously held that though disparity between the two wings had increased, the rate of growth of disparity had gone down.

In EAD, for estimating resources available during the plan period from foreign aid we had to count the local resources arising from counterpart funds of foreign loans and commodity aid. Being responsible for USAID in EAD, I found that rupee funds from the sale of DDT under US assistance arose entirely from East Pakistan, where it was used. The use of DDT was discontinued in West Pakistan for a number of years, but the counterpart funds were divided equally and one-half continued to be credited to West Pakistan. I raised the issue at a meeting between senior officers of the planning commission and EAD at which Dr.Mahbubul Huq was present. 

He was then a staff member of the World Bank and loaned to the planning commission for assistance in finalizing the FYP. I proposed that the entire rupee funds from sale of DDT be allocated to East Pakistan, which had local resource constraints. Dr. Huq countered it by an economic argument, whose thrust, as I understood it, was that those were not real resources for development! I am mentioning this anecdote to exemplify the subtle ways in which East Pakistan had been deprived of its legitimate share.

We prepared short analytical notes and talking points for the ministers from East Pakistan and went to their homes in the evenings to brief them for the cabinet meeting on FYP. In examination of the economic issues of the plan, Dr. Anisur Rahman, then a Professor at the Islamabad University, assisted and fully cooperated with us. Syeduzzaman, then an officer in the Central government, had separately briefed the commerce minister, Ahsanul Huq. We found the ministers, in varying degrees of enthusiasm, receptive to our views and efforts. Thus motivated and equipped with notes, the Bengali ministers took part in the cabinet deliberations of the FYP. 

G.W. Choudhury, one of the ministers, countered the argument that the much bigger area of West Pakistan justified greater allocation by saying that development was for the people and not for the barren deserts of Sind and the mountains of the Frontier and Baluchistan provinces. Other Bengali ministers, led by Dr. Malik, voiced their objections to the inequities of the Plan and demanded that the plan proposals be modified and affirmative actions taken to reduce disparity between the two wings. Later, I learnt that Yahya Khan had tauntingly asked what Dr. Malik and his Muslim League party did in respect of removal of disparity when they were in power for a long time. 

In the end, due to the objections of the Bengali ministers, the cabinet referred the Plan back to the Planning Commission for reconsideration. The Fourth FYP was not finalized by March 1971, when due to the army crack down beginning on March 25, the plan became irrelevant to East Pakistan. 

Brigadier Iskander Karim (Later Major General) was a senior Bengali staff officer in the presidents office. He and I had worked very closely during my time in the Establishment Division, as well as in the EAD, both in the presidents secretariat. Whether it was in respect of appointments, promotions or transfers of senior central government officials or issues relating to the FYP, we coordinated our work to promote East Pakistans interests. Karim and I maintained these contacts until I left for Brussels in November 1970. From early that year, preparations were afoot to hold a general election on adult franchise throughout Pakistan for a new parliament and drafting of a new constitution. It was clear that because of its bigger population, East Pakistani members would be in a majority in the new parliament. 

However, there were then about seventy political parties in East Pakistan. Brig. Karim informed me that military intelligence reports to the president were to the effect that the voting strength of East Pakistan in parliament would be split among a large number of parties. The province would not have a unified voice with regard to its demands and even if the Bengalis were in the government, they would not be effective vis-a-vis West Pakistan and the army junta. In view of this, he felt that we should try to accomplish as much as possible for East Pakistan within the reality of the existing governmental framework and before the new and possibly a weak government comes into office. 

Within the limitations, we did just that but in the absence of an overall political settlement in Pakistan, it was too little, too late. Actually, the military intelligence assessments were utterly wrong with regard to the Bengali peoples mood and the extent of their political alienation from Pakistan. In the seventy elections, the Awami League won overwhelmingly in East Pakistan and became the single largest party in parliament. However, the parliament was never convened by Yahya Khan. The ultimate result was the break up of Pakistan at the end of 1971.

http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate...000000000098737


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## salman nedian

MBI Munshi said:


> In an article written by a friend of mine a few years ago he showed how racial and regional stereotypes existed on all sides. While West Pakistanis did look down upon East Pakistanis it also worked the other way around with Muslim Bengalis feeling that the Pakistani Punjabis were all brawn and no brains and that those were given in a larger proportion to the East Pakistanis by God. The reason that such racial stereotypes led to civil war (and independence) was because one side had guns and was prepared to use it with out thinking of the wider consequences. Anyway, as I have repeatedly been saying raking over the embers of history will not bring back the dead but we can learn from what happened.



But how can we move forward ? there should be some framework which unfortunately is not there .there must be more people to people contact,more cooperation economically,in defence,in increasing life standerds of people,in health sector.Muslim world is going through a bad patch and the 2 Big Muslim counties (they both were one country) should show the world that they are still the one logical entity b/c now there is only one rule in world "Might is Right".
Muslims of Subcontinent are in such large numbers that they can become one of the super powers but unfortunately they are divided and have differences and misunderstandngs among them.


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## BanglaBhoot

I think the first step is being taken ... a few of us on this forum have taken that first step by expressing our understanding of the issues and the willingness to overcome the barriers ... In Bangladesh I know that contacts are being renewed on many levels with Pakistan over time this will take a more tangible form very soon ... The only problem is the internal problemsin both Pakistan and Bangladesh may delay that process ....


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## Bull

MBI Munshi said:


> I think the first step is being taken ... a few of us on this forum have taken that first step by expressing our understanding of the issues and the willingness to overcome the barriers ... In Bangladesh I know that contacts are being renewed on many levels with Pakistan over time this will take a more tangible form very soon ... The only problem is the internal problemsin both Pakistan and Bangladesh may delay that process ....



Why is that muslims are so eager in tie ups with each other even if there is nothing that each other can offer to each other. Why cannot B'desh look east towards Ind/Ma/Sing/Tha and open trade routs and learn from them?


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## HK-47

> Why cannot B'desh look east towards Ind/Ma/Sing/Tha and open trade routs and learn from them?


we already are.and I think K.Zia's govt performed very irresponsibly sometimes.and we haven't got a consistent robust foreign policy even if the top two parties have implemented similar ideologies.


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> It would be wonderful to believe that the West Pakistanis did not look down on Bengalis. But I would honestly be surprised if you would like us to believe that the Bengalis of East Pakistan all flew over the cuckoos' nest!



There was no more looking down on Bengalis than any other country. 



> Comparative economics.
> http://www.virtualbangladesh.com/economy/stats.html



The first table has Bangladeshi literacy higher than Pakistani literacy at 35%!!  Now that is brainwashing of bonlabobo type proportions. In 2006, literacy was around 50-60% as quoted by independent organizations. Bharat's literacy was also higher.


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## roadrunner

MBI Munshi said:


> In an article written by a friend of mine a few years ago he showed how racial and regional stereotypes existed on all sides. While West Pakistanis did look down upon East Pakistanis it also worked the other way around with Muslim Bengalis feeling that the Pakistani Punjabis were all brawn and no brains and that those were given in a larger proportion to the East Pakistanis by God. The reason that such racial stereotypes led to civil war (and independence) was because one side had guns and was prepared to use it with out thinking of the wider consequences. Anyway, as I have repeatedly been saying raking over the embers of history will not bring back the dead but we can learn from what happened.



Dude, it's been established that there was violence by the Bengalis well before war broke out. That was Bengali on Bihari violence but there was also plenty of incidences of Bengali attacks on West Pakistani soldiers. The Muktihi Bahini was well prepared in advance of the way with the help of Bharati weapons, as the reports documented have shown. The EPR had their own set of weapons anyhow. But if the Bengalis are attacking West Pakistan soldiers and Biharis, it is quite right to try and root out the perpetrators of the violence with violent methods.


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## BanglaBhoot

The use of proportionate force would not have divided the country. Yes root out the miscreants but why crackdown on the entire country and risk a wider revolt.


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## BanglaBhoot

This is what I meant by gradual steps in cooperation - 


Pakistan keen to sign FTA with Bangladesh

Rafiqul Islam Azad back from Pakistan

The New Nation - August 2, 2007

Pakistans business community is keen on signing Free Trade Agreement (FTA) of their country with Bangladesh in order to enhance bilateral trade between the two SAARC countries.

Business leaders of Pakistan are pursuing the signing of such a trade agreement with Bangladesh also to help boost investment between the two countries, said Majyd Aziz, President of Karachi Chamber of Commerce and Industry (KCCI) while talking to a team of Bangladeshi journalists in Karachi, the commercial hub of Pakistan, recently.

He said there is an ample scope for expansion of bilateral trade between the two countries. Both the countries should import from each other rather than buying from far away countries, he said.

The KCCI President said there is vast scope of joint ventures between Pakistan and Bangladesh particularly in the field of textiles, leather, chemicals, fertilizer and engineering.

We are insisting on enhancing trade with Bangladesh as well as with other SAARC countries, he said.

He underlined the need for turning the South Asia Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA) more effective in the interest of increasing trade in the region.

Trade is not progressing under the SAFTA due to certain reasons including tariff and non- tariff barriers, he said.

The KCCI President also laid emphasis on the positive mindset among politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats of the region to implement SAFTA effectively to increase intra-regional trade.

Majyd Aziz appreciated Bangladesh for its success in exporting readymade garment and said that Bangladesh is likely to cross Pakistan in exporting garment within next three to four years.

The KCCI President mentioned that trade volume between Pakistan and Sri Lanka substantially increased after both the countries signed a bilateral free trade agreement

Pakistan, being the third largest consumer of tea with a market of some 225 million US dollars, can become the largest market for Bangladeshi tea if Dhaka ensures quality and competitive price, he said.

But record shows that Bangladesh exported tea valued at only US$ 10 million to Pakistan in the 2004-05 fiscal year.

Meanwhile, Pakistans Foreign Secretary Reaz Mohammad Khan told the team that Pakistan wanted to explore every opportunity to increase bilateral trade deals.

Emphasising the need for enhancing economic cooperation he said the people of both the countries enjoy a unique relationship based on shared history, culture and tradition.

He observed that there are prospects of expanding relationship in social, economic and cultural areas to benefit the people of both the countries.

Sources said the bilateral trade between Dhaka and Islamabad is above US$ 300 million and there is the potential of increasing it up to one billion dollars initially if an FTA is signed between the two countries.

According to KCCI research cell, Pakistans export to Bangladesh was US$ 268.55 million while import from Bangladesh was US$ 64.55 million during fiscal year 2005-2006.

http://nation.ittefaq.com/new/get.php?d=07/08/02/w/n_ztuu


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## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> There was no more looking down on Bengalis than any other country.
> 
> 
> 
> The first table has Bangladeshi literacy higher than Pakistani literacy at 35&#37;!!  Now that is brainwashing of bonlabobo type proportions. In 2006, literacy was around 50-60% as quoted by independent organizations. Bharat's literacy was also higher.



Bengalis are in India and Bangladesh.

The 'any other country' would signify that you mean "India".

If you mean anyone in India looks down on Bengalis in India, you have a second guess coming. We are not the kowtowing, subservient lackeys and that is why the Bengalis in Bangladesh rose as one man when injustice was done and though Mujibur and Bengalis won the elections hands down, were not allowed to take their rightful place!

It would do you good to know that Bengalis never stand injustice and unfairness! We do our utmost to fight such rot.

To imagine a people who embraced Pakistan because of religion and ummah, discarding it and going their own way inspite of the concept of ummah! They sure must have real good reasons to do so.

The comparative table is from Bangaldesh. Given your volatile nature of everything of India is bad, I quoted from Bangaldesh. Now, say that they are also lousy, just because it does not suit your scheme of things!!

Look chum, if Bangaldesh does better than India, I would not decry that. Instead, I will use it as a benchmark to improve and if possible, do better!


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## akzaman

*The Significance of the Six-Point Movement and its Impact on Bangladeshs Struggle for Freedom and Self-determination*

M. Waheeduzzaman Manik

Introduction:The historic Six-Point movement in 1966 was the turning point in Bangladeshs quest for greater autonomy and self-determination from Pakistans colonial domination. The six-point demand has been widely credited as the charter of freedom in the history of Bangladeshs struggle for freedom and independence. 

The six-point plan had envisaged, among other things, a full-blown federal form of Government based on the 1940 Lahore Resolution, a parliamentary system of government directly elected by the people on the basis of adult franchise, two separate currencies or two reserve banks for the two wings of Pakistan, and a para-military force for East Pakistan. The spectacular success of the six-point movement in 1966 had prompted the ruling coterie of Pakistan to discredit the organizers of this movement. 

Although Ayub Khans diabolical regime had used various brutal punitive measures against the proponents, organizers and supporters of the six-point formula, this historic movement had seriously impacted and conditioned the subsequent political development in Pakistan. 

The main purpose of this paper is to assess the significance of the six-point movement and its impact on Bangladeshs struggle for freedom and self-determination. Once the main contents of the six-point plan are summarized, the nature, magnitude, and impact of the six-point movement will be appraised. Aimed at substantiating and validating my own observations about the magnitude and impact of the six-point movement, some scholarly observations will be cited. Finally, some concluding remarks will be made. 

The Six-Point Plan: the Main Elements

Sheikh Mujibur Rhaman, the then General Secretary of the East Pakistan Awami League (EPAL), had personally submitted the six-point program to the subject-matter committee of the All-Party Meeting of the opposition political parties of the then Pakistan in Lahore on February 5, 1966. Based on his 6-Point Formula: Our Right to Live [March 23, 1966], the chief demands and themes of the historic six-point plan are being summarized as follows: 

Point 1: The Constitution should provide for a Federation of Pakistan in its true sense on the basis of [1940] Lahore Resolution, and Parliamentary form of Government with supremacy of legislature directly elected on the basis of universal adult franchise. 

Point 2: The Federal Government of Pakistan shall deal with only two subjects, viz.: defense and Foreign Affairs, and all other residuary subjects shall vest in the federating states. 

Point 3: Two separate but freely convertible currencies for two wings [of Pakistan] should be introduced; or if this is not feasible, there should be one currency for the whole country, but effective constitutional provisions should be introduced to stop the flight of capital from East to West Pakistan. Furthermore, a separate Banking Reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy to be adopted for East Pakistan. 

Point 4: The power of taxation and revenue collection shall be vested in the federating units and the Federal Centre will have no such power. However, the Federation will be entitled to have a share in the state taxes to meet its expenditures. The Consolidated Federal Fund shall come out of a levy of certain percentage of all state taxes. 

Point 5: There should be two separate accounts for the foreign exchange earnings of the two wings with clear assurance that earnings of East Pakistan shall be under the control of East Pakistan Government and that of West Pakistan under the control of West Pakistan Government. And the foreign exchange requirements of the Federal Government [of Pakistan] should be met by the two wings equally or in a ratio to be fixed. The indigenous products should move free of duty between the two wings. The Constitution should empower the units [provinces] to establish trade and commercial relations with, set up trade missions in and enter into agreements with foreign countries. 

Point 6: East Pakistan should have a separate militia or para-military force. 

Immediate Reactions of the Pakistani Political Leaders to the Six-Point Plan

Instead of endorsing Sheikh Mujibs legitimate six-point-based demand for maximum provincial autonomy, the mainstream leaders of the so-called opposition parties for establishing democracy in Pakistan were not even willing to include his proposal in the official agenda of the conference for initiating discussion on the merits or demerits of the of the proposed six-point demands. In fact, no West Pakistani political leaders (not even Nawabzada Nasarullah Khan, the President of the then All-Pakistan Awami League) were willing to lend any support to Sheikh Mujibs clarion call for maximum provincial autonomy based on the proposed six-point program. 

It is also really appalling to recapitulate even after forty long years that the non-Awami League delegates from the then East Pakistan did not endorse the six-point demand. Like their West-Pakistani counterparts, Bengali speaking renegades had also smelled an element of secession or disintegration of Pakistan in the six-point program. In fact, Sheikh Mujibs six-point demand could not be pried out of the subject-matter committee of that so-called All-party conference. Rather, the proposed six-point anchored proposal for maximum provincial autonomy had received frontal attacks from the mainstream ruling elite of Pakistan. The veteran West Pakistani political stalwarts, in conjunction with their cohorts from the then East Pakistan, had started a slanderous propaganda campaign against Sheikh Mujibur Rahman --- - the chief architect and proponent of the six-point charter even though most of those instant criticisms of the proposed six-point program were characterized by blatant falsehoods, conjectures, distortions, and innuendoes. Yet Sheikh Mujibur Rahman refused to be blackmailed or intimidated by those critics. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans Immediate Response to the Critics

In a press conference at Lahore on February 10, 1966, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had pointed out the uselessness and irrelevance of the All-Party Conference. He had clearly articulated that the question of demanding genuine provincial autonomy based on the proposed six-point program should not be misconstrued or dismissed as provincialism. He underscored that the proposed six-point demand was not designed to harm the common people of West Pakistan. 

He had pointed out that the 17-day war between Pakistan and India (1965) made it crystal clear to the East Pakistanis that the defense of East Pakistan couldnt be contingent upon the mercy or courtesy of West Pakistan. He reminded the audience that instead of relying on West Pakistan for its own defense-- a distant land located one thousand miles away, East Pakistan should be made self-sufficient for the purpose of defending itself from external aggression. He also made it abundantly clear that his six-point plan for maximum provincial autonomy reflected the long-standing demands of the people of East Pakistan. 

On his return from Lahore to Dhaka on February 11, 1966, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had provided further clarification on his six-point demands in a press conference. He explained why he had disassociated himself from the All-Party conference in Lahore. He had clearly stated that the delegates from East Pakistan Awami League (EPAL) had rejected not only the proposals passed by the All-Party Conference but also severed all ties with the disgruntled leaders of this so-called conference of the opposition parties. He said that it was not at all possible for him or his party to betray the genuine interests of the aggrieved and deprived people of East Pakistan. He emphasized that the immediate adoption and implementation of his six-point demand will be conducive to foster durable relationship between two provinces of Pakistan. 

In a press conference on February 14, 1966, he reiterated that the the question of autonomy appears to be more important for East Pakistan after the 17-day war between Pakistan and India. The time is ripe for making East Pakistan self-sufficient in all respects. 

Reaction of Ayub Khans Dictatorial Regime to the Six-Point Plan

Immediately after the provincial autonomy plan based on the six-point formula was unveiled by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman at the Lahore conference of opposition political parties in early February, 1966, the military autocracy of the self-declared Field Marshal Ayub Khan was quick to denounce it as a separatist or secessionist move. Aimed at browbeating the dedicated champions of greater provincial autonomy, Ayub Khan, the autocratic President of the then Islamic Republic of Pakistan, had started discrediting both the message and the messenger of the six-point program. 

Appearing in the final session of the Pakistan (Convention) Muslim League in Dhaka on March 21,1966 (of course being fully attired in the army Generals khaki uniform with full display of all of his regalia and medallions), the self-declared President of the then Pakistan had condemned the six-point based plan for maximum provincial autonomy in the harshest possible terms. Characterizing the six-point formula for provincial autonomy as a demand for greater sovereign Bengal, Ayub Khan had claimed that such a plan would put the Bengali Muslims under the permanent domination of the caste Hindus of neighboring West Bengal. 

Comparing the prevailing situation in Pakistan [as of March, 1966] with the volatile situation that had existed in the USA before the outbreak of a prolonged Civil War in early 1860s, the self-serving President of Pakistan also arrogated himself by saying that the nation might have to face a civil war if such were forced upon him by the secessionists. He had even threatened the autonomists and secessionists with dire consequences if they failed to shun the idea of six-point based movement for provincial autonomy. He had also the audacity to underscore that the language of weapons would be ruthlessly employed for exterminating the secessionist elements from Pakistan. 

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the flamboyant Foreign Minister of Pakistan, had openly challenged Sheikh Mujibur Rahman to a public debate on the strengths and weaknesses of the proposed six-point plan at Paltan Maidan in Dhaka. To the chagrin of the Ayub regime, Tajuddin Ahmed, number 2 person in the then Awami League, took up the challenge on behalf of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. Unfortunately, it was Z.A. Bhutto who did not show up for debate! Abdul Monem Khan, the then infamous Governor of East Pakistan, had publicly stated that as long as I remain Governor of this province (East Pakistan), I would see to it that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman remains in jail.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman Launches the Six-Point Movement

In response to such false accusations and vile threats, a fearless Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was quick to respond. In a mammoth public gathering at Paltan Maidan, he thundered: No amount of naked threats can deviate the deprived Bangalees from their demand for provincial autonomy based on their six-point demands. The greatest champion of Bangalees rights for self-determination, along with top leaders of the Awami League, kept on addressing numerous public meetings in the nooks and corners of the then East Pakistan. Without wasting a moment, the entire Awami League and the East Pakistan Students League (EPSL), its student front, were geared toward mobilizing and motivating the general masses in favor of demanding self-government and autonomy based on the six-point program. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had presented not only the bold proposal for maximum provincial autonomy but he also launched a viable mass movement (which he himself led till he was put in jail on May 9, 1966) for popularizing and mobilizing support for the six-point program. After proposing his historic six-point program, he had actually invested all of his energies and resources in disseminating the fundamental message of maximum autonomy for East Pakistan. He started articulating both the rationale and justification for proposing maximum provincial autonomy based on his six-point plan. However, before launching a full-fledged mass movement for realizing his six-point demands, Sheikh Mujib had initiated some strategic intra-party measures. The Council Session of the East Pakistan Awami League (EPAL) met on March 18, 19, 20, 1966, and that council session had also restructured the working Committee of the party. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and Tajuddin Ahmed were unanimously elected the President and General Secretary respectively of the newly revamped Awami League. The proposed six-point program was also unanimously endorsed by that historic council session for realizing maximum provincial autonomy for the then East Pakistan. 

To the dismay of Pakistans ruling coterie, the six-point program had generated a great deal of enthusiasm among the people of the then East Pakistan. As noted by Dr. Talukder Maniruzzaman: To say that this [six-point] programme evoked tremendous enthusiasm among the people of East Bengal would be an understatement. Encouraged by overwhelming popular support, Sheikh Mujib convened a meeting of the EPAL Council [March 18-20, 1966] at which his [Six-Point] programme was unanimously approved and he was elected President of the [Awami League] party. With a phalanx of organizers from the Students League, Sheikh Mujib then launched a vigorous campaign. For about three months (from mid-February to mid-May), the urban centers of East Bengal seemed to be in the grip of a mass revolution, prompting the Central Government to arrest Sheikh Mujib and his chief lieutenants (Tajuddin Ahmed, Khandokar Mustaq Ahmed, Mansoor Ali, Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury, and others) under the [infamous] Defense of Pakistan Rules and put down a complete general strike in Dacca (June 7, 1966) by killing 13 participating strikers [Talukder Maniruzzaman, The Bangladesh Revolution and Its Aftermath, UPL, 1988. P. 25]. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans demand for maximum autonomy based on his six-point formula seems to have shaken the foundation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The six-point plan had exposed the fact that the real intention of Pakistans ruling elite was to strengthen the Punjabi-Mohajir dominated Central Government. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman repeatedly said in several public meetings that that the people of Pakistan had always desired a strong Pakistan, not a strong Central Government. The entire ruling establishment of Pakistan was alarmed, and obviously, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the chief proponent of the six-point program, had become the main target of negative publicity. He had to endure various virulent forms of harassment, intimidation, and fraudulent cases. 

Instead of fairly addressing the legitimate grievances and demands of the neglected eastern province of Pakistan, the power elite took a deliberate decision to suppress the quest for maximum provincial autonomy through the use of colonial types of repressive methods and procedures. The ruling coterie of Pakistan was not at all interested in dealing or negotiating with the Awami League on the issue of provincial autonomy even though Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had publicly stated that he was willing to negotiate his six-point plan with anyone in good faith provided a meaningful autonomy was ensured for East Pakistan. Yet the oligarchy of Pakistan started using repressive tactics to suppress the six-point movement. As noted by Dr. Md. Abdul Wadud Bhuyain, the Ayub regimes policy towards the six-point demand of the AL was one of total suppression. It showed once again that the [Ayub] regime failed to respond to the political demand [Md. Abdul Wadud Bhuyain, Emergence of Bangladesh & Role of Awami League, New Delhi: Vikas Publishing, 1982, p. 104]. 

Indeed, the six-point movement had generated spontaneous mass enthusiasm throughout East Pakistan. The entire nation was galvanized throughout February-March-April-May-June, 1966. In retaliation, the Government had intensified its policy of repression and persecution against Sheikh Mujib and his followers. For example, while Sheikh Mujib was touring various districts in April 1966 to enlist mass support in favor of his six-point program, he was arrested in almost all important places on flimsy and fraudulent charges. Dr. Anisuzzaman, a distinguished literary figure of Bangladesh, has summarized the nature of the repressive measures which Sheikh Mujib had to confront and endure for launching the historic six-point plan at a critical juncture of our history: During that period [from the middle of February through May 9, 1966], there was hardly any place where Sheikh Mujib was not arrested [on false charges] for addressing public meetings. Today in Jessore, tomorrow in Khulna, day after tomorrow in Rajshahi. And on the following days in Sylhet, Mymensingh, and Chittagong. Once he was released on bail in one place, he rushed to another place. He had no time to waste. The only time wasted was in the process of posting bail for his release. Arrested once again. Being released once again, and then immediately move to another place (to address the public meetings). (Freehand translation is mine). [Anisuzzaman, Bangabandhu in the Context of History, in Mreetoonjoyee Mujib (Immortal Mujib), Dhaka; Bangabandhu Parishad, 1995, pp.11-12]. 

Throughout the month of May 1966, the Central Government of Pakistan, of course in full collaboration with Abdul Monem Khan, Ayub Khans handpicked Governor of East Pakistan had enthusiastically cracked down on all senior most leaders of the Awami League. The arrestees under the Defence of Pakistan Rules included, among others, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, Tajuddin Ahmed, Syed Nazrul Islam, Khondokar Moshtaque Ahmed, M. Mansoor Ali, and AHM Kamruzzaman. However, the governmental crackdown on the top leaders of the Awami League couldnt dampen the spirit of the organizers and supporters of the six-point movement. 

It was on June 7, 1966 when a full-blown hartal was observed in support of the six-point program throughout the urban centers of the then East Pakistan. In defiance of various oppressive and repressive measures of the autocratic Government of Pakistan, people from walks of life had lent their spontaneous support to this hartal. Obviously, it was a mass response to governmental repressive measures and state sponsored violence since the middle of February 1966 when the historic six-point movement was launched. . Several dozen men were shot dead during hartal on June 7, 1966. Hundreds of participants of the movement were injured. Thousands of Awami League leaders. (Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the most volatile and articulate champion of maximum autonomy for the then East Pakistan was already put in jail on May 9, 1966) and student workers were put behind bars without any trial. Hulias (warrants of arrest) were issued on hundreds of Awami League workers and student leaders. The Daily Ittefaq, the most popular Bangla newspaper of the then eastern province of Pakistan, was shut down, its press was confiscated, and its editor, Tofazzal Hossain (Manik Mia), was put in jail. Yet the repressive police forces could not halt the march of the six-point anchored provincial autonomy movement. It was significant that the secondary leaders of the Awami League had organized a very successful general strike on June 7, 1966 all over the province. The mass participation in the general strike on June 7 in support of the six-point plan for provincial autonomy was a clear indication of a perceptible shift in the Bengali mood.

Impact and Implications of the Six-Point Movement

The imprisonment of Sheikh Mujib and other top Awami Leaguers in 1966 could not diminish the mass support for the six-point demand. In fact, Pakistans ruling elites policy of suppression of all forms of political freedoms and dissents had miserably failed to halt the march of the six-point movement. Rather, the use of police violence against the organizers and participants of the six-point movement had prompted and motivated the general population of the then East Pakistan to render their full support for the demand of maximum provincial autonomy. Dr. Talukder Maniruzzaman, one of the distinguished political scientists of Bangladesh, has noted the immediate impact of the governmental repressive measures during the six-point movement on Sheikh Mujibs popularity in the following words: As one might have expected, Sheikh Mujibs arrest in 1966 only served to enhance his popularity, to the point where he became the veritable symbol of Bengali nationalism [Talukder Maniruzzaman, The Bangladesh Revolution and Its Aftermath, UPL, 1988, p. 23].

In his seminal assessment of the role of the Awami League in the political development of Pakistan, Dr. M. Rashiduzzaman succinctly summarized the significance and impact of the six-point movement: The impact of the six-point demand of the Awami League was felt far and wide. The central government [of Pakistan] dubbed it as a demand for the separation of the Eastern Wing from the rest of the country, and launched a propaganda campaign, which called for a strong central government and decried the autonomists. On June 7, 1966, there was a province-wide hartal (strike) in East Pakistan sponsored by the Awami League to press the demands embodied in the six-point program. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, along with several lieutenants, were again put into the prison. [Sheikh Mujib was put in jail in early May, 1966]. The government also blamed foreign interests in the agitation led by the six-pointers.. ----- After about a year, several East Pakistani civil servants and military officers were arrested on the charge that they had conspired to separate the East Wing by violent means in collusion with India. Eventually, the so-called Agartala Conspiracy case was initiated against Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and 31 others for alleged high treason. (M. Rashiduzzaman,The Awami League in the Political Development of Pakistan, Asian Survey, Vol. 10, No. 7, JULY, 1970; pp. 574-587]. In the same article, Dr. Rashiduzzaman also observed about the impact of the six-point movement on the 11-point charter of the 1969 student-mass movement: For all practical purposes, the eleven-point student program was an expanded version of the Awami Leagues six- point demand for autonomy. 

It is evident from the preceding quotations that the six-point movement had a far reaching effects on the subsequent political development in the then Pakistan. It is widely acknowledged that the six point movement was a catalyst to the fomenting of a sustainable movement against President Ayub Khan and his regime in early 1969. In fact, the origins of both the Agartala Conspiracy Case and the anti-Ayub student-mass movement in 1969 can be traced back to the six-point movement. Aimed at destroying Bangalees quest for full-blown autonomy and self-determination once and for all, a vile conspiracy was hatched out against Mujibur Rahman, the most articulate champion of greater provincial autonomy. At the behest of Ayub Khan, the Punjabi-Muhajir dominated Central Government of Pakistan had implicated Sheikh Mujibur Rahman in the fraudulent Agartala Conspiracy Case. The real agenda of Pakistans ruling elite was to hang him as a traitor. In other words, the Government of Pakistan wanted to eliminate Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the ardent defender of the legitimate rights of his people, for maintaining a status quo in the form of colonial rule in East Pakistan. However, an anti-Ayub student-mass movement in late 1968 and early 1969 led to the withdrawal of the so-called Agartala Conspiracy case and the unconditional release of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from imprisonment. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was at best regarded as the top leader of the Awami League when he had launched the six-point movement in early 1966. He was not yet regarded as the undisputed leader of all Bengali speaking people of the then East Pakistan. Nor was he called Bangabandhu in 1966. He was not the only political leader of the then East Pakistan who had championed the cause of full provincial autonomy. In fact, there were other top political leaders even within his party with impressive credentials and tested commitment to the pursuit of full autonomy for East Pakistan. There were also more senior political leaders in other political parties, including Maulana Bhasani, who were quite vocal for greater provincial autonomy for East Pakistan. Being disgusted with the colonial brand of exploitation of East Pakistan by West Pakistani ruling coterie, Maulana Bhasani had uttered goodbye to West Pakistan more than once --- at least a decade earlier than the historic six-point movement. In fact, Maulana Bhasani was never willing to compromise on the issue of full provincial autonomy for the then East Pakistan. 

Yet Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans fearlessness and relentlessness gave birth to the six-point movement for realizing full provincial autonomy in the early months of 1966. There is no doubt that his relentlessness in starting and sustaining a pragmatic Bengali nationalistic movement that was deliberately geared toward achieving maximum autonomy had clearly distinguished him from other contemporary champions of provincial autonomy. His fearlessness also made him the most volatile champion of full provincial autonomy. Only a courageous leader of Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans stature could come up with the six-point plan for accruing full autonomy for East Pakistan at a time when Ayub Khans brute regime was at its pinnacle after consolidating its grip over the entire power structure of the country. 

The six-point movement had direct bearing on the following momentous events: the making of the infamous Agartala conspiracy case against Shekh Mujib, the volatile student-mass movement of 1969, the withdrawal of the concocted Agartala conspiracy case and the unconditional release of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from imprisonment on February 22, 1969, the removal of the infamous provincial Governor Monaem Khan, the sudden collapse of Ayub Khans dictatorship and the rise of Yahya Khans diabolical regime, the General Elections in 1970 on the basis of adult franchise, the landslide victory of the Awami League in the general elections and the spectacular rise of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman as the sole spokesperson of the Bengali speaking people of the then Pakistan, the nine-month long liberation war in 1971, and finally the emergence of Bangladesh as an independent nation-state on December 16, 1971. Doubtless, these tumultuous events were milestones in the history of Bangladeshs struggle for freedom and independence. Notwithstanding three decades of rampant distortions of Bangladeshs political history, it is fair to suggest that the six-point movement was the precursor of these momentous events, and the name of the common thread that had firmly connected these milestones was Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. 

Concluding Remarks

There is no doubt that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman would have remained a top Awami League leader even in the absence of a bold provincial autonomy plan in the form of the six-point program. Yet had there been no six-point movement in 1966, there is every doubt if the Agartala Conspiracy Case would have been hatched out against him at that particular time. Had there been no Agartala Conspiracy Case, the student-mass movement of 1969 would not have exclusively focused on his unconditional release from imprisonment. Thus the six-point movement, the Agartala conspiracy case, and the 1969 student-mass movement had provided the much-needed context and momentum for the his emergence as Bangabandhu (Friend of Bengal) Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. From that juncture of our history, he did not have to look backward. The whopping majority of Bengali speaking people of the then East Pakistan had vested their full trust in their Bangabandhu in the general elections of 1970. Therefore, his spectacular success in the historic general elections of 1970 and his emergence as the legitimate sole spokesperson and undisputed leader of his people owe a great deal to his success in the historic six-point movement in 1966. 

The six-point plan had also reflected the legitimate grievances and genuine demands of the people of the then East Pakistan. There is little wonder why the historic six-point movement had garnered so much spontaneous mass support throughout the province. The timing, first for presenting, and then starting a sustainable Bengali nationalist movement for realizing the professed goals of six-point demand was crucially important. The economic and political demands, as stipulated and enumerated under the six-point program, were the frontal assault on the foundation of Pakistans colonial exploitation and authoritarian modes of governance. 

_Dr. M. Waheeduzzaman (Manik) writes from Clarksville, Tennessee, USA where he is a Professor and the Chair of the Department of Public Management at Austin Peay State University. His e-mail address is mwzaman@aol.com or zamanw@apsu.edu_

http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate...000000000111223


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## salman nedian

Provincial autonomy was no doubt the right demand but separate currancy wasn't!

I have said it before that separate coutries of Europe has adopted single currancy ,how can you enforce 2 currancies in one country?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

sadly nothing was given to the Bengalis.

It was a canard to say that East Pakistan was sapping the economy of Pakistan!

The typical Punjabi big talk!

conrary to the popular canard about Bengalis, including what Batman said about 'Bengalis anywhere'.

Here is some interesting fact about Bengal on the Indian side:



> West Bengal&#8217;s growth rate from 1993-94 recorded 7.2 per cent which was second only to Karnatak&#8217;s 8.11 corresponding figure to India 6.3 per cent and Punjab stood for 3.8 per cent only.During the same period ,the average per capita income grew to5.5 per cent in West Bengal against 4.3 per cent at national level.This is all credible as West Bengal&#8217;s population growth since 1981 is high as 2.34 per cent,primarily because of the influx from Bangladesh.
> The result thus achieved by the state due to the reason in agricultural productivity front line player because of land reform contributes 14.6 per cent of the country&#8217;s total production.The state has the third highest average yield in India---2424 kg per hectre against the national average of 1739 kg.In this context considering Punjab and Haryana have 89.72 per cent and 65 per cent respectively,of its irrigated land against West Bengal&#8217;s 28.1 per cent.It reveals that in the year 2001-02,Punjab produced 24.89 million tones from 38.47 lakh hectres of irrigated land against West Bengal&#8217;s 16.50 million tones from 19.11 lakh hectres of irrigated land.This works out to an astounding 34 per cent more yield per acre despite the preponderance of marginalize sized holdings as a result of land reform.The data obtained from the state directorates of Statistics may raise the question of reliability;yet it emerges some trends.The period from 1985-86 to 1990-91,West Bengal recorded a growth of 24.52 per cent ie the sixth lowest in India.Rajasthan at 63.35 per cent was maximum,with Andhra Pradesh at 45.97 per cent and Maharashtra was 45.47 per cent.But the situation gradually changed after economic reform started in the year1991.West Bengal recorded 33.12 per cent growth from the year 1995-96 to 1999-2000.During the same period Rajasthan came down at 23.97 per cent.
> Sceptics argue that the high growth rate of West Bengal is not as creditable as it appears because of the low base dismal growth in the preceeding years.
> Those who do not earn enough to purchase a minimum calorie of food intake of 2400 calories in rural and 2100 calories in urban should be considered below poverty line as recommended by National Sample Survey Organization.Using this scale ,West Bengal in the year 1999-2000 had below poverty line 27.02 per cent of its population; higher than the national figure of 26.10 per cent.The UNDP has introduced two( GDP and poverty levels) comprehensive indices to reflect the &#8220;quality of life&#8221; and &#8220;deprivations&#8221;for Human Development Index and Human Poverty Index respectively.West Bengal has attracted the highest capital;next only to Guzrat,but ahead of Maharashtra ,UP and Andhra Pradesh.But reveals badly 2.52 per cent jobs against 3.75 in Andhra,3.92 in UP,4.05 in Guzrat and 5.60 in Maharashtra respectively.But only white collar jobs unable to solve the problem of food security;more blue collar workers through self-employment and diversification of agriculture---fruits,vegetables,milk,egg ,meat and fishes etc.will enhance employment opportunities as well as food security.
> Enlighten politics is necessary to improve the delivery systems of the government.Transparancy and accountability in the functioning of the states will be followed by social audit.The logistics of lending support to a population in the unorganized sectors require massive participation by political will and can not be left totally to the bureaucratic power within the government. However, the approaches used to strengthen good governance in developing countries like India remain strikingly similar to those used to promote economic reform.
> 
> http://topics.developmentgateway.org/foodsecurity/rc/filedownload.do~itemId=1068145



Look down on Bengalis 'anywhere' and you will suffer!


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## akzaman

*How did rape become a weapon of war? *

By Laura Smith-Spark BBC News 

The UN has accused the Janjaweed militia in Sudan of using mass rape 
Women's bodies have become part of the terrain of conflict, according to a new report by Amnesty International. Rape and sexual abuse are not just a by-product of war but are used as a deliberate military strategy, it says. 

The opportunistic rape and pillage of previous centuries has been replaced in modern conflict by rape used as an orchestrated combat tool. And while Amnesty cites ongoing conflicts in Colombia, Iraq, Sudan, Chechnya, Nepal and Afghanistan, the use of rape as a weapon of war goes back much further. 

Spoils of war? 
From the systematic rape of women in Bosnia, to an estimated 200,000 women raped during the battle for Bangladeshi independence in 1971, to Japanese rapes during the 1937 occupation of Nanking - the past century offers too many examples. So what motivates armed forces, whether state-backed troops or irregular militia, to attack civilian women and children? 

Gita Sahgal, of Amnesty International, told the BBC News website it was a mistake to think such assaults were primarily about the age-old "spoils of war", or sexual gratification. Rape is often used in ethnic conflicts as a way for attackers to perpetuate their social control and redraw ethnic boundaries, she said. "Women are seen as the reproducers and carers of the community," she said. 

"Therefore if one group wants to control another they often do it by impregnating women of the other community because they see it as a way of destroying the opposing community." 
A report by Medecins Sans Frontieres says it first came across rape as a weapon in the 1990s. "In Bosnia systematic rape was used as part of the strategy of ethnic cleansing," it said. 
"Women were raped so they could give birth to a Serbian baby." 

The same tactic was used in a "very strategic attack" by state-backed Pakistani troops during the fight for Bangladesh's independence in 1971, Ms Sahgal said. "They were saying 'we will make you breed Punjabi children'," she said, with the aim of weakening the integrity of the opposing ethnic group. 

Amnesty this year accused the pro-government Janjaweed militias in Sudan's Darfur region of using mass rape in order to punish, humiliate and control non-Arab groups. Such attacks cause women and children to flee their homes, lead to fragmentation of communities and bring the risk of infection with HIV/Aids. 

Sexual violence is also used to destabilise communities and sow terror, Amnesty says in its Lives Blown Apart report. In Colombia, rival groups rape, mutilate and kill women and girls in order to impose "punitive codes of conduct on entire towns and villages", so strengthening their control. 

Act with impunity 
The strategic use of rape in war is not a new phenomenon but only recently has it begun to be documented, chiefly in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Colombia and Sudan, said Ms Sahgal. 

And even after conflicts are resolved, few countries seem willing to tackle what is often seen as a crime against individual women rather than a strategy of war. In many nations the collapse of the rule of law leaves them unable to deal with allegations of rape, while in others women feel too exposed to stigma to accuse their attackers. 

International courts have tackled some cases in Bosnia, where Muslim women were forced into sexual slavery in the town of Foca in the 1990s, and in Rwanda, but the vast majority of perpetrators act with impunity. 

Representatives of the 200,000 "comfort women" forcibly drafted into military sexual slavery by Japan from 1928 until the end of World War II are still fighting for restitution. Far from colluding, women from Korea, China, Taiwan, the Philippines, Malaysia and East Timor were "severely coerced" into prostitution, says Ms Sahgal. 

And whether a woman is raped at gunpoint or trafficked into sexual slavery by an occupying force, the sexual abuse will shape not just her own but her community's future for years to come. "Survivors face emotional torment, psychological damage, physical injuries, disease, social ostracism and many other consequences that can devastate their lives," says Amnesty. 

"Women's lives and their bodies have been the unacknowledged casualties of war for too long." 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/4078677.stm


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

My pakistani brethren have a very difficult time understanding and accepting the reality that is 'Bangladesh'.

My personal belief and experience states that if Jinnah would have been alive, he would have accepted it as a natural reality.

Look at Bangladesh in this sense-------if there was no support from the east wing, there was no seperate nation for the muslims. So, two majority muslim areas joined hands together, created a united goal and the outcome was the nation of pakistan. It is totally unreal---two nations under one flag and a thousand miles apart created at the same time.

Brotherhood takes a lots of sacrifice, energy and an eternal commitment, a lots of give and take and still at the end of the day, there may come up differences. Now, when these differences become bloodied and there is no compromise, THEN SEPERATION is the best solution. It is just like a marriage, where one partner thinks that they are being abused, used and taken for granted---regardless of what the truth is. There can be no justification given, no excuses made and if one of the partner becomes belligerent and does not accept the responsibility, there is going to be some blooding.

A good example is a movie, ' WAR OF THE ROSES ', starring Michael Douglas. 

The question asked should have been, ' What would Jinnah do once Bangladesh got created' ? And to that I write, that Jinnah would say, ' Let us start allover again with our relationship. We had achieved our primary goal in the past, now let us take this new relationship to the next level of friendship. You, the master of your own house----let us find the common grounds that have helped us in the past to overcome our differences and move ahead '.


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## Marathaman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My pakistani brethren have a very difficult time understanding and accepting the reality that is 'Bangladesh'.
> 
> My personal belief and experience states that if Jinnah would have been alive, he would have accepted it as a natural reality.
> 
> Look at Bangladesh in this sense-------if there was no support from the east wing, there was no seperate nation for the muslims. So, two majority muslim areas joined hands together, created a united goal and the outcome was the nation of pakistan. It is totally unreal---two nations under one flag and a thousand miles apart created at the same time.
> 
> Brotherhood takes a lots of sacrifice, energy and an eternal commitment, a lots of give and take and still at the end of the day, there may come up differences. Now, when these differences become bloodied and there is no compromise, THEN SEPERATION is the best solution. It is just like a marriage, where one partner thinks that they are being abused, used and taken for granted---regardless of what the truth is. There can be no justification given, no excuses made and if one of the partner becomes belligerent and does not accept the responsibility, there is going to be some blooding.
> 
> A good example is a movie, ' WAR OF THE ROSES ', starring Michael Douglas.
> 
> The question asked should have been, ' What would Jinnah do once Bangladesh got created' ? And to that I write, that Jinnah would say, ' Let us start allover again with our relationship. We had achieved our primary goal in the past, now let us take this new relationship to the next level of friendship. You, the master of your own house----let us find the common grounds that have helped us in the past to overcome our differences and move ahead '.



First abuse....leads to divorce...then friendly reconciliation...and finally a new platonic relationship.

I'm guessing that Bangladesh is the ex-wife here?

(Chill guys..its just a joke).


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## Ababeel

Creation of Bangladesh is another sad story of muslim history of south Asia. A careful study shows the Nationalistic poison which has been entered in body of Ummah is showing its deadly reactions from time to time in different forms. Take a senario if Islamic were the rulers at that time this tragedy would have been reverted.
Bright examples are there of Jamaat actions against all odds and dangers. They tried to prevent the then pakistan from disintegrationcaused due to Pnjabiyat and Bangaliyat.


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## Marathaman

kbagdadi said:


> Creation of Bangladesh is another sad story of muslim history of south Asia. A careful study shows the Nationalistic poison which has been entered in body of Ummah is showing its deadly reactions from time to time in different forms. Take a senario if Islamic were the rulers at that time this tragedy would have been reverted.
> Bright examples are there of Jamaat actions against all odds and dangers. They tried to prevent the then pakistan from disintegrationcaused due to Pnjabiyat and Bangaliyat.



Nationalistic Poison. Interesting term.

Btw....this whole "Ummah" thing....what are its origins?

Is it a recent concept, or has it been mentioned in the quran or hadiths.


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## akzaman

*Century of Genocide: Eyewitness Accounts and Critical Views*

Introduction

The birth of Bangladesh in 1971 was a unique phenomenon- it was the first nation-state to emerge after waging a successful liberation war against a postcolonial state. The nine-month-long liberation war in Bangladesh drew world attention because of the genocide committed by Pakistan which resulted in the killings of approximately three million people and raping of nearly a quarter million girls and women. Ten million Bengalis reportedly took refuge in India to avoid the massacre of the Pakistan army and thirty million people were displaced within the country (Loshak, 1971; Mascarenhas, 1971; Payne, 1973; Ayoob and Subrahmanyan, 1972; O'Donnell,1984).

Written two decades after the genocide, this essay addresses the following: the historical forces that led to the genocide; the nature of the genocide-why, how, and who committed the genocide; the world response; the long-range impact of the genocide on the victims; the way the genocide is remembered today; and some lessons that can be drawn from the 1971 Bangladesh genocide.

Background to the Genocide

Though the liberation war in Bangladesh lasted only nine months, the nationalist movement that preceded the war spanned the previous two decades. Indeed, the seeds of the Bangladesh nationalist movement were planted very soon after the creation of Pakistan in 1947.

When India was partitioned on the basis of religion and the new state of Pakistan was established comprising the Muslim majority areas of India, Bengali Muslims voluntarily became a part of Pakistan. But very soon it became apparent to the Bengali Muslims that, despite their numerical majority, they were being hurt in a variety of ways: (1) their linguistic cultural identity was being threatened by the ruling elite (which was predominantly non-Bengali) in the new state; (2) they were being economically exploited; and (3) they were excluded from exercising state power (Jahan, 1972). 

The nationalist movement first emerged as a struggle to defend and reserve the ethnic linguistic Bengali identity of the Bengali Muslims. Though the Bengalis comprised 54 percent of Pakistan's population, in 1948 the ruling elite declared their intention to make Urdu, which was the language of only 7 percent of the population, the sole state language. Bengali students immediately protested the decision and launched a movement which continued for the next eight years until the Pakistan constitution, adopted in 1956, recognized both Bengali and Urdu as state languages (Ahmad, 1967).

The Bengalis had to defend not only the right to practice their own language, but also other creative expressions of their culture-literature, music, dance, arts. The Pakistani ruling elite looked upon Bengali language and culture as too "Hindu leaning" and made repeated attempts to "cleanse" it from Hindu influence (Umar, 1966, 1967, 1969). First, in the 1950s, attempts were made to force Bengalis to substitute Bengali words with Arabic and Urdu words. Then, in the 1960s, state-controlled media such as television and radio banned songs written by Rabindra Nath Tagore, a Bengali Hindu, who won the Nobel prize in 1913 and whose poetry and songs were equally beloved by Bengali Hindus and Muslims.

The attacks on their language and culture alienated the Bengalis from the state-sponsored Islamic ideology of Pakistan and intensified their linguistic and ethnic identity that emphasized a more secular ideology and attitude.

The Bangladesh nationalist movement was also fueled by a sense of economic exploitation. Though jute, the major export earning commodity, was produced in Bengal, most of the economic investments took place in Pakistan. A systematic transfer of resources took place from East to West Pakistan creating a growing economic disparity and a feeling among the Bengalis that they were being treated as a colony by Pakistan (Rahman, 1968; Jahan, 1972).

In the 1950s and 1960s, a group of Bengali economists carefully documented the process of economic disparity and martialled arguments in favor of establishing a "two-economy" system. The movement toward autonomy initiated in the 1950s culminated in the famous six points program of 1966, which not only rejected the central government's right of taxation but demanded that the power to tax and establish trade and commercial relations, including the establishment of separate accounts of foreign exchange earning, be placed in the hands of the provinces.

However, it was lack of political participation and exclusion from state power that gradually drove the Bengalis from participation, to demanding autonomy, and finally to demanding self-determination (Jahan, 1972). Constituting a majority of the population, the Bengalis expected to dominate or at least share the political power in the federal government of Pakistan. But soon after the creation of Pakistan, a small civil and military bureaucratic elite held a monopoly on government power. As a result, the Bengalis had virtually no representation in that power elite (Sayeed, 1967 , 1968; Jahan, 1972).

From the beginning, the Bengalis demanded democracy with free and regular elections, a parliamentary form of government, and freedom of political parties and the media. But the ruling elite in Pakistan thwarted every attempt at instituting democracy in the country (Callard, 1957; Sayeed, 1967). In 1954, a democratically elected government in East Bengal was dismissed within ninety days of taking power. A constitution was adopted in 1956 after nine years of protracted negotiations only to be abrogated within two years by a military coup. Just before the first nationally scheduled election, the military took direct control of the government in 1958. This was out of fear that the Bengalis might dominate in a democratically elected government.

The decade of the 1960s saw the military rule of General Ayub Khan. It was eventually toppled in 1969 as a result of popular mass movements in both wings (East and West) of Pakistan. However, after the fall of Ayub, the civil-military bureaucratic elite again regrouped and put General Yahya Khan, who was the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, in charge of the government. The Yahya regime acceded to a number of key demands of the Bengali nationalist movement including the holding of a free democratic national election on the basis of one man one vote. The first free democratic national elections, held in Pakistan in 1970 two decades after the birth of the country, resulted in a sweeping victory of the Bengali nationalist party, the Awami League. The election results gave the Awami League not only total control over their own province, but also a majority nationally and a right to form the federal government.

Again, though, the ruling elite in Pakistan took recourse to unconstitutional measures........... March 1, 1971, General Yahya postponed indefinitely the scheduled March 3rd session of parliament. This, in turn, threw the country into a constitutional crisis. The Awami League responded by launching an unprecedented non-violent, non-cooperation movement which resulted in the entire administration of then East Pakistan coming to a virtual standstill. Even the Bengali civil and military officials complied with the non-cooperation movement. Indeed, the movement demonstrated that the Bengali nationalists had total allegiance and support of the Bengali population.

The Yahya regime initiated political negotiations with the Bengali nationalists but at the same time flew thousands of armed forces in from West to East Pakistan, thus consolidating preparations for a military action. On March 25, 1971, General Yahya abruptly broke off the negotiations and unleashed a massive armed strike against the population of Dhaka, the capital city. In two days of uninterrupted military operations, hundreds of ordinary citizens were killed, houses and property were destroyed, and the leader of the Awami League, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, was arrested. The army also launched armed attacks in Chittagong, Comilla, Khulna, and other garrison cities. Simon Dring, a reporter with the Daily Telegraph London, and Michel Laurent, an Associated Press photographer, escaped the Pakistani dragnet, and roamed Dhaka and the countryside. On March 28 they reported that the loss of life had reached 15,000 in the countryside. On the Dhaka University campus, seventeen professors and some 200 students were killed in cold blood (Loshak, 1971, pp. 88-126).

The news of the Dhaka massacre immediately spread to the rest of the country. Instead of cowing the unarmed Bengalis into submission, which was probably the intention of the Pakistani army in initiating the brutal killings, it only inflamed nationalist sentiments. Within twenty-four hours of the armed crackdown in Dhaka, on March 26, 1971, the independence of Bangladesh was declared from the city of Chittagong. It was announced over the radio, which was controlled by the Bengali nationalists, on the behalf of the Awami League and its leader Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. The upshot of this is that a new nation was born out of what was a premeditated genocide (Jahan, 1972; Ayoob and Subhrahmanyan, 1972).

Bangladesh Genocide 1971

The genocide in Bangladesh, which started with the Pakistani military operation against unarmed citizens on the night of March 25, continued unabated for nearly nine months until the Bengali nationalists, with the help of the Indian army, succeeded in liberating the country from Pakistani occupation forces on December 16, 1971.

The atrocities committed by the Pakistan army were widely reported by the international press during 1971 (Loshak, 1971; Mascarenhas, 1971; Schanberg, 1971; Jenkins, et al., August 2, 1971; Coggin et al" August 2, 1971).

From the eyewitness accounts documented during and immediately after the genocide in 1971 and 1972 and later published over the last twenty years, it is possible to analyze the major features of the Bangladesh genocide-why and how it was committed, who was involved in the crimes, and who the victims were.

Why Was the Genocide Committed?

The genocide in Bangladesh caught the outside observers as well as the Bengali nationalists by surprise. After all, the Bengali nationalists were not involved in any armed struggle prior to March 25, 1971. They were essentially waging a peaceful constitutional movement for democracy and autonomy. Their only crime, as Senator Edward Kennedy observed, appeared to have been to win an election (Malik, 1972). So why did the Pakistani ruling elite initiate a brutal military action?

Perhaps, the main reason behind the atrocities was to terrorize the population into submission. The military commander in charge of the Dhaka operations reportedly claimed that he would kill four million people in forty- eight hours and thus have a "final solution" of the Bengal problem. (Jahan, 1972). The Pakistani military regime calculated that since the Bengalis had no previous experience in armed struggle, they would be frightened and crushed in the face of overwhelming fire power, mass killings, and destruction. 

But the atrocities created a completely opposite effect on the Bengalis.

Instead of being cowed, they rose in revolt and chose the path of armed struggle to resist armed aggression. When news of the Dhaka massacre reached other cities and towns, human waves overran the police stations and distributed arms to people. But the initial armed resistance was short-lived as the Bengalis lacked substantial arms and were vastly outnumbered in terms of trained soldiers. The Pakistani army was able to recapture a majority of the towns. Not surprisingly, the process was brutal and innocent civilians were killed indiscriminately by the military.

Though the initial armed resistance failed, the Bengali nationalists were not prepared to give up the liberation struggle. Instead of direct confrontation, the liberation fighters chose the course of guerrilla warfare. Nearly 100,000 young men were given armed training within Bangladesh and India and they succeeded in virtually destroying the communication and supply lines of the Pakistani army. To retaliate against the guerrillas, the Pakistani army embarked on a strategy of destroying entire areas and populations where guerrilla actions were reported. Massive killing, looting, burning, and raping took place during these "search and destroy" operations (Coggin, Shepherd, Greenway, 1971, pp. 24-29; Jenkins, Clifton, and Steele, 1971, pp. 26-30; Malik 1972).

The reasons behind the genocide, however, were not simply to terrorize the people and punish them for resistance. There were also elements of racism in this act of genocide. The Pakistani army, consisting of mainly Punjabis and Pathans, had always looked upon the Bengalis as racially inferior-a non-martial, physically weak race, not interested or able to serve in the army (Marshall, 1959). General Ayub Khan's (1967) remarks about the Bengalis in his memoirs reflected the typical attitude of the Pakistan's civil military power elite:

East Bengalis...probably belong to the very original Indian races,...

They have been and still are under considerable Hindu cultural and linguistic influence. ...They have all the inhibitions of downtrodden races. ...Their popular complexes, exclusiveness, suspicion and. .. defensive aggressiveness. ..emerge from this historical background. (p.187)

The image of the Bengalis as a non-martial race, created by the British colonialists, was readily accepted by the Pakistani ruling elite. A policy of genocide against fellow Muslims was deliberately undertaken by the Pakistanis on the assumption of racial superiority and a desire to cleanse the Bengali Muslims of Hindu cultural linguistic influence.

How Was the Genocide Committed?

On March 25, 1971, when the Pakistani government initiated military action in Bangladesh, a number of sites and groups of people were selected as targets of attack. In Dhaka, for example, the university campus, the headquarters of the police and the Bengali para militia, slums and squatter settlements, and Hindu majority localities, all were selected as special targets. The Pakistani ruling elite believed that the leadership of the Bengali nationalist movement came from the intellectuals and students, that the Hindus and the urban lumpen proletariat were the main supporters, and that the Bengali police and army officials could be potential leaders in any armed struggle. In the first two days of army operations, hundreds of unarmed people were killed on the university campus, and in the slums and the old city where Hindus lived. (Eyewitness accounts of killings in the Dhaka university campus are included in the oral testimony that accompanies this essay.)

When the news of the Dhaka massacre spread and the independence of Bangladesh was declared on March 26, spontaneous resistance was organized in all the cities and towns of the country. The Awami League politicians, Bengali civilian administration, police, army, students, and intellectuals constituted the leadership of the resistance. This first phase of the liberation war was, however, amateurish and uncoordinated and only lasted approximately six weeks. By the middle of May, the Pakistani army was successful in bringing the cities and towns under their control though the villages remained largely "liberated" areas.

In occupying one city after another, the Pakistani army used the superiority of its fire and air power to its advantage. These operations also involved massive killings of civilians and wanton lootings and destruction of property. The leadership of the resistance (e.g., Awami League leaders, army and civilian officials, and intellectuals) generally left the scene prior to the Pakistani army's arrival. They took refuge either in India or in the villages.

But, in any case, the Pakistani army engaged in indiscriminate killings and burnings in order to terrorize the population. Again, Awami Leaguers, students and intellectuals, civilian and army officers, and Hindus were selected as targets of attack (Malik, 1972). The army's campaign against the cities and towns not only led to massive civilian casualties, it also resulted in a large-scale dislocation of people. In fact, nearly ten million people-Hindus as well as Muslims-migrated to India, and approximately thirty million people from the cities took refuge in the villages. Government offices, educational institutions, and factories were virtually closed.

The second phase of the liberation war-from mid-May to September-was a period of long-term planning for both the Bengali nationalists and the Pakistani government. The Bengali nationalists set up a government-in-exile and undertook external publicity campaigns in support of their cause. They also recruited nearly one hundred thousand young men as freedom fighters who underwent military training and started guerrilla operations inside Bangladesh.

The Pakistan army essentially dug in their own strong-holds during this period with periodic operations to rural areas to punish the villagers for harboring freedom fighters. The army also engaged in large-scale looting, and raping of girls and women.

In fact, systematic and organized rape was the special weapon of war used by the Pakistan army during the second phase of the liberation struggle. While during the first phase, young able-bodied males were the victims of indiscriminate killings, during the second phase, girls and women became the special targets of Pakistani aggression. During army operations, girls and women were raped in front of close family members in order to terrorize and inflict racial slander. Girls and women were also abducted and repeatedly raped and gang-raped in special camps run by the army near army barracks. Many of the rape victims either were killed or committed suicide. Altogether, it is estimated that approximately 200,000 girls and women were raped during the 1971 genocide (Brownmiller, 1981). (An eyewitness account of the mass rape camps organized by the Pakistani army is included in the oral history account that accompanies this essay.)

All through the liberation war, able-bodied young men were suspected of being actual or potential freedom fighters. Thousands were arrested, tortured, and killed. Eventually cities and towns became bereft of young males who either took refuge in India or joined the liberation war. 

During the second phase, another group of Bengali men in the rural areas--those who were coerced or bribed to collaborate with the Pakistanis- fell victim to the attacks of Bengali freedom fighters.

The third phase of the liberation struggle-from October till mid-December-saw intensified guerrilla action and finally a brief conventional war between Pakistan and the combined Indian and Bangladeshi forces which ended with the surrender of the Pakistani army on December 16, 1971 (Palit, 1972; Ayoob and Subrahmanyan, 1972) .As guerrilla action increased, the Pakistani army also intensified its "search and destroy" operations. Several villages were destroyed each day during this phase. 

In the last week of the war, when their defeat was virtually certain, the Pakistani government engaged in its most brutal and premeditated genocidal campaign. During this time, villages were burnt and their inhabitants were indiscriminately killed. In order to deprive the new nation of its most talented leadership, the Pakistanis had decided to kill the most respected and influential intellectuals and professionals in each city and town. Between December 12 and 14, a selected number of intellectuals and professionals were picked up from their houses and murdered. Many of their names were later found in the diary of Major General Rao Forman Ali, advisor to the Martial Law Administrator and Governor of occupied Bangladesh (Malik, 1972).

The victims of the 1971 genocide were, thus, first and foremost Bengalis.

Though Hindus were especially targeted, the majority of the victims were Bengali Muslims-ordinary villagers and slum dwellers-who were caught unprepared during the Pakistani army's sweeping spree of wanton killing, rape, and destruction. As previously mentioned, the Pakistani ruling elite identified certain groups as their special enemies-students and intellectuals, Awami Leaguers and their supporters, and Bengali members of the armed forces, and the police. But many members of these targeted groups went into hiding or in exile in India after the initial attack. As a result, the overwhelming majority of the victims were defenseless ordinary poor people who stayed behind in their own houses and did not suspect that they would be killed, raped, taken to prison, and tortured simply for the crime of being born a Bengali.

The sheltered and protected life of women, provided by the Bengali Muslim cultural norm, was virtually shattered in 1971. Thousands of women were suddenly left defenseless and to fend for themselves as widows and rape victims. The rape victims were particularly vulnerable. Though they were the casualties of the war, many of them were discarded by their own families as a way to avoid shame and dishonor (Brownmiller, 1981; Jahan, 1973).

Who Committed the Genocide?

The Pakistani government-the Yahya regime-was primarily responsible for the genocide. Not only did it prevent the Awami league and Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from forming the federal government, but it opted for a military solution to a constitutional crisis. In doing so, it decided to unleash a brutal military operation in order to terrorize the Bengalis. Yahya's decision to put General Tikka Khan-who had earned the nickname of Butcher of Baluchistan for his earlier brutal suppression of Baluchi nationals in the 1960s-in charge of the military operation in Bangladesh, was an overt signal of the regime's intention to launch a genocide.

When Bangladesh was liberated, the Pakistani army surrendered; and shortly thereafter, the Bangladesh government declared its intention to hold war crime trials against the Pakistan army. Specific charges, however, were only brought against 193 officers (out of the 93,000 soldiers within its ranks). Bangladesh, however, later gave up the idea of war crime trials in exchange for a negotiated settlement of outstanding issues with Pakistan. This specifically involved the return of the Bengalis held hostage in Pakistan, repatriation of the Biharis from Bangladesh to Pakistan, division of assets and liabilities, and recognition of Bangladesh (O'Donnell, 1984).

But the Pakistani military leaders were not the only culprits. The political parties, e.g., the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), also played an important role in instigating the army to take military action in Bangladesh. The PPP and its leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto supported the army action all through 1971 (Bhutto, 1971; Jahan, 1973).

There were also Bengalis who collaborated with the Pakistani regime. During the second phase of the liberation struggle, the Pakistani government deliberately recruited Bengali collaborators. Many of the Islamic political groups (Muslim League and the Jamaat-e-Islami) opposed to the Awami League also collaborated with the army. Peace committees were formed in different cities and localities and under their auspices rajakars (armed volunteers) were raised and given arms to counter the freedom fighters. Two armed vigilante groups (Al Badr and Al-Shams) were trained, and took the lead in the arrest and killing of the intellectuals during December 12-14, 1971. Some Bengali intellectuals were also recruited to conduct propaganda in favor of the Pakistanis.

The non-Bengali residents of Bangladesh-the Biharis-were the other group of collaborators. Many of them acted as informants and also participated in riots in Dhaka and Chittagong. Biharis, however, were also victims of Bengali mob violence.

The World's Response to the Genocide

World response to the genocide can be analyzed at dual levels-official and non-official. At the official level, world response was determined by geopolitical interests and major power alignments. Officially India was sympathetic and supportive of the Bangladesh cause from the beginning. The U.S.S.R., India's major superpower ally, supported the Indian-backed cause. As a result of the U.S.S.R.'s support, all the Eastern bloc countries naturally were also supportive of Bangladesh (Jackson, 1975).

Pakistan's allies were predictably opposed to Bangladesh. Pakistan launched a propaganda campaign to deny the existence of genocide (White Paper, 1971; Bhutto, 1971). Islamic countries were generally supportive of Pakistan. So was China. The official policy of the United States was to "tilt in favor of Pakistan" because Pakistan was used as an intermediary to open the door to China (Jackson, 1975).

At the non-official level, however, there was a great outpouring of sympathy for the Bangladesh cause worldwide because of the genocide. The Western media-particularly the U.S., British, French, and Australian- kept Bangladesh on the global agenda all through 1971. Well-known Western artists and intellectuals also came out in support of Bangladesh. George Harrison and Ravi Shankar held a Bangladesh concert. Andre Malraux, the noted French author, volunteered to go and fight with the Bengali freedom fighters. In the United States, citizen groups and individuals lobbied successfully with Congress to stop military aid to Pakistan. Despite the Nixon administration's official support of the Pakistani government, influential senators and congressmen {such as Frank Church and Edward Kennedy)spoke out strongly against the genocide. Members of parliament in the United Kingdom, Europe, and other Western countries were also highly critical of the Bangladesh genocide.

Both officially and unofficially, India played a critical role in mobilizing support for Bangladesh. The genocide and the resultant influx of ten million refugees in West Bengal and neighboring states created spontaneous unofficial sympathy. The press, political parties, and voluntary organizations in India pressed Mrs. Indira Gandhi, the Indian Prime Minister, to immediately intervene in Bangladesh when the Pakistani army cracked down in March 1971. The Indian government initially declined to intervene but gave moral and financial support to the Bangladesh government-in-exile as well as the freedom fighters. It also sponsored a systematic international campaign in favor of Bangladesh. And finally in December 1971, when the ground was well prepared, Bangladesh was liberated as a result of direct Indian army intervention (Jackson, 1975).

The world's sympathy for the Bangladesh people in the aftermath of the 1971 genocide was also demonstrated by the tremendous relief and rehabilitation efforts mounted by the United Nations and private voluntary organizations in Bangladesh. Even before the liberation of Bangladesh, large-scale relief efforts were undertaken by the world community to feed the refugees in the India-based camps. And during the first two years of the birth of the new nation ''as many as 72 foreign relief groups, including U.N. agencies, contributed to what observers considered the largest single and most successful emergency relief endeavor of our times" {0' Donnell, 1984, p. 112). Nearly $1.3 billion of humanitarian aid was given to Bangladesh in the first two years of its existence.

Though the international community responded generously in giving humanitarian aid, there was very little support for the war crime trials that Bangladesh proposed to hold. The Indian army very quickly removed the Pakistani soldiers from Bangladesh soil to India in order to prevent any reprisals or mob violence against them. India and other friendly countries were also supportive of a negotiated package as a way to settle all outstanding issues between Pakistan and Bangladesh, including the war crimes. Though public opinion favoring war crime trials against the Pakistani army has high in Bangladesh, the Sheikh Mujib regime finally decided to forego the trials. This created a deep scar in the national psyche; indeed, the lack of a trial created a sense of betrayal and mistrust.

Long-Range Impact of the Genocide on the Victims

A major impact of the genocide was the introduction of violence in Bangladesh society, politics, and culture. Prior to 1971, Bengalis were a relatively peaceful and homogeneous community with a low level of violent crimes. They were highly faction ridden and politicized but differences and disputes were generally settled through negotiations, litigation, and peaceful mass movements. After the Pakistani armed attack, Bengalis took up arms and for the first time engaged in armed struggle. This brought a qualitative change in people's attitude to conflict resolution. Non-violent means of protest and conflict resolution were largely discarded in favor of armed violence.

The genocide, looting, burning, and rapes also brutalized the Bangladeshi society. After witnessing so much violence, the people seemed to have developed a higher degree of tolerance toward wanton violence.

The role of Bengali collaborators in perpetuating the genocide created deep division and mistrust in the otherwise homogeneous Bengali social fabric. After the birth of Bangladesh the whole country appeared to be divided between the freedom fighters and collaborators. But not all collaborators were clearly identified. For example, the members of the two vigilante groups (Al Badr and Al-Shams) were never traced and punished. As a result, the feeling that the collaborators were still at large and capable of striking again created deep fear and a certain paralysis of action particularly among the intellectuals.

In addition to these three generalized impacts-violence, brutalization, and mistrust-the genocide has had several long-term impacts on the different victim groups. The Hindu community has not felt safe again in Bangladesh, and after 1971 many of them decided not to return to Bangladesh. Furthermore, there has been a steady migration of young Hindus to India even after Bangladesh was liberated.

Students and youth, who became familiar with the use of arms, did not give them up after 1971. They started using sophisticated weapons in settling political scores. Continuous armed conflicts between rival student groups have made the college and university campuses one of the most dangerous places in the country. That has resulted in destroying the academic atmosphere and the standard of educational institutions.

The genocide and the issue of collaborators also created a deep division within the armed forces. From 1975 to 1981, the various factions of the armed forces staged numerous bloody coups and countercoups which resulted in the killing of virtually all the military leaders who participated in the liberation war.

The status of women was also altered as a result of the genocide. The sudden loss of male protection forced thousands of women to seek wage employment. For the first time, women entered occupations, e.g., public works program, rural extension work, civil administration, police, etc., which were not open to them before. Violence against women has also become more widespread and common.

Do People Care Today?

The genocide and the liberation war has been kept alive primarily through creative arts-theater, music, literature, and painting. Over the last five years, nearly two decades after the genocide was committed, many vivid eyewitness accounts of the genocide and personal diaries of 1971 have been published in Bangladesh. It is interesting to note that from 1971 to 1973, it was mostly foreigners who published eyewitness accounts of the Bangladesh genocide {Mascarenhas, 1971; Malik, 1972; Payne, 1973). Bengalis themselves did not sit down to write or collect these accounts. But a decade and a half after the events, a flood of writing on the genocide has begun to emerge, most of it coming from Bangladesh written by ordinary citizens who relate their personal experiences of the genocide. These recollections are powerful and evocative.

While the genocide and the liberation war have not been forgotten by the people of Bangladesh, the collaborators have been gradually "rehabilitated" through state patronage. Since the 1975 army coup and the overthrow of the Awami League regime, many of the collaborators who had been opposed to the Awami League joined the political parties floated by the two military leaders, Ziaur Rahman (1975-1981) and Ershad (1982-1990). The two military leaders tilted the country toward Islamic ideology, allowed religious-based parties to function, and appointed a few well-known collaborators to their cabinet. The gradual ascendance of the Islamic forces in the country became even more evident when, after the 1991 election, the Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) succeeded in forming the government with the support of the fundamentalist party, Jamaat-e-Islami.

The control of state power by the collaborators of the 1971 genocide finally enraged the victims of genocide to take direct political action. They launched a mass movement to eliminate the "Killers and Collaborators of 1971." A citizens' committee was convened in 1991. It was headed by Jahanara Imam, a well-known author whose son was killed by the Pakistani army in 1971. It demanded a trial of Golam Azam, the head of the Jamaat-e-Islami party for complicity in the 1971 killings. The non-partisan civic organization galvanized the support of the intellectuals and youth. The major opposition party, the Awami League, also threw in its support. The citizen's committee organized major non-violent protests, nationwide strikes were organized, and a public trial was held where children, wives, and other relatives of victims of genocide gave testimony against the Jamaat-e- Islami party and its leader Golam Azam. The genocide and the collaborators' issue, which had gradually been sidestepped since 1975, were brought back to the center stage of the political arena in 1992.

Lessons from This Genocide

What lessons can be drawn from the 1971 Bangladesh genocide? First, once a state adopts a systematic policy of genocide against any nationality group, the nationality group, threatened with genocide, will feel stronger in the legitimacy of their claim to form their own separate state.

Second, once a policy of genocide is initiated, it is difficult to settle conflict through peaceful negotiations. The Bengalis gave up the path of constitutional struggle and political negotiations and chose the course of armed struggle after the Pakistani intention of killing several million people to arrive at a "final" solution became evident to the Bengalis.

Third, the genocide creates a deep trauma in the national psyche. It creates fear, suspicion, and mistrust. The Bengalis are suspicious of all foreign powers including India, which helped to liberate the country. Resentment against the Indian army emerged in the weeks following the liberation of the country and the Indian army was withdrawn within ninety days. There is not only constant fear of foreign aggression, there is also distrust about foreign agents and collaborators. The deep animosity between the freedom fighters and collaborators makes national consensus building efforts almost impossible. Creating a civil society in Bangladesh continues to be difficult since the issue of genocide divides the nation so deeply.

Eyewitness Accounts

Genocide in Bangladesh 

The following eyewitness accounts of the 1971 genocide depict different incidents. The first two eyewitness accounts describe the mass murders committed on March 25 night on Dhaka University campus. The first account is by a survivor of the killings in one of the student dormitories (Jagannath Hall) where Hindu students lived. The second account is by a university professor who witnessed and videotaped the massacres on Dhaka University campus. The third and fourth eyewitness testimonies describe the mass rape of women by the Pakistanis. The fifth testimony describes the killings in the village of Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the leader of the nationalist movement. The last account describes the atrocities of the non-Bengali Biharis who collaborated with the Pakistan army. The testimonies are taken from two sources; one is a Bengali book entitled 1971: Terrible Experiences (Dhaka: Jatiya Shahitya Prakasheni, 1989), which was edited by Rashid Haider and is a collection of eyewitness accounts. Sohela Nazneen translated the accounts from Bengali to English. The other source, The Year of the Vulture (New Delhi: Orient Longmans, 1972), is an Indian journalist's (Arnita Malik) account of the genocide. In the Malik book Dhaka is spelled as Dacca, which was the spelling used in 1972.

Massacre at Jagannath Hall

This testimony is from Kali Ranjansheel's, "Jagannath Hall e-Chilam" ["I was at Jagannath Hall"], in Rashid Haider (ed.), 1971: Vayabaha Ovigayata [1971: Terrible Experiences] Dhaka: Jatiya Shahitya Prakasheni, 1989, p. 5. It was translated by Sohela Nazneen. Reprinted with permission.

I was a student at the Dhaka University. I used to live in room number 235 (South Block) in Jagannath Hall. On the night of 25th of March I woke up from sleep by the terrifying sound of gunfire. Sometimes the sound of gunfire would be suppressed by the sound of bomb explosions and shell-fire. I was so terrified that I could not even think of what I should do! After a while I thought about going to Shusil, assistant general secretary of the student's union. I crawled up the stairs very slowly to the third floor. I found out that some students had already taken refuge in Shusil's room, but he was not there. The students told me to go to the roof of the building where many other students had taken shelter but I decided (rather selfishly) to stay by myself I crawled to the rest rooms at the northern end of the third floor and took refuge in there. I could see the East, the South and the West from the window. I could see that the soldiers were searching for students with flashlights from room to room, were taking them near the Shahid Minar (Martyr's memorial) and then shooting them. Only the sound of gunfire and pleas of mercy filled the air. Sometimes the Pakistanis used mortars and were shelling the building. The tin sheds in front of assembly and some of the rooms in North Block were set on fire. ...

After some time about forty to fifty Pakistani soldiers came to the South Block and broke down the door of the dining room. The lights were turned on and they were firing at the students who took shelter in that room. ...When the soldiers came out they had Priyanath (the caretaker of the student dormitory) at gunpoint, and forced him to show the way through all the floors of the dormitory. During this time I was not able to see them as I left the restroom by climbing up the open window and took shelter on the sunshed of the third floor. But I could hear the cracking sounds of bullets, the students pleading for mercy and the sound of the soldiers rummaging and throwing things about in search of valuables. The soldiers did not see me on the sunshed.

...After they left I again took refuge in the washroom. I peeked through the window and saw that the other students' dormitory, Salimullah Hall, was on fire. The Northern and the Eastern parts of the city was on fire too as the North and East horizon had turned red. The whole night the Pakistani soldiers continued their massacre and destruction. ...Finally I heard the call for the morning prayer. ...

...The curfew was announced at dawn and I thought that this merciless killing would stop. But it continued. The soldiers started killing those who had escaped their notice during the night before.

...It was morning and I heard the voices of some students. I came out of the washroom, and saw that the students were carrying a body downstairs while soldiers with machine guns were accompanying them. It was the dead body of Priyanath. I was ordered to help the students and I complied. We carried bodies from the dormitory rooms and piled them up in the field outside.

There were a few of us there-students, gardeners, two sons of the gates-keeper and the rest were janitors. The janitors requested the Pakistanis to let them go since they were not Bengalis. After a while the army separated the janitors from us.

...All the time the soldiers were cursing and swearing at us. The soldiers said "We will see how you get free Bangladesh! Why don't you shout Joy Bangla (Victory to Bengal)!" The soldiers also kicked us around. After we had finished carrying the bodies, we were divided into groups. They then took my group to one of the university quarters and searched almost every room on the fourth floor and looted the valuables. Downstairs we saw dead bodies piled up, obviously victims from the night before. They also brought down the flag of Bangladesh.

...After we came back, we were again ordered to carry the dead bodies to the Shahid Minar. The soldiers had already piled up the bodies of their victims and we added others bodies to the piles. If we felt tired and slowed down, the soldiers threatened to kill us-

...As my companion and I were carrying the body of Sunil (our dormitory guard), we heard screams in female voices. We found that the women from the nearby slums were screaming as the soldiers were shooting at the janitors (the husbands of the women). I realized that our turn would come too as the Pakistanis started lining up those students who were before us, and were firing at them. My companion and I barely carried the dead body of Sunil toward a pile where I saw the dead body of Dr. Dev [Professor of Philosophy]. I cannot explain why I did what I did next. Maybe from pure fatigue or maybe from a desperate hope to survive!

I lay down beside the dead body of Dr. Dev while still holding onto the corpse of Sunil. I kept waiting for the soldiers to shoot me. I even thought that I had died. After a long time I heard women and children crying. I opened my eyes and saw that the army had left and the dead bodies were still lying about and women were crying. Some of the people were still alive but wounded. All I wanted to do was to get away from the field and survive.

I crawled towards the slums. First I went to the house of the electrician. I asked for water but when I asked for shelter, his wife started crying aloud and I then left and took refuge in a restroom. ...Suddenly I heard the voice of Idu who used to sell old books. He said,

"Don't be afraid. I heard you are alive, I shall escort you to safety." I went to old Dhaka city. Then I crossed the river. The boatman did not take any money. From there, I first went to Shimulia, then, Nawabganj and finally I reached my village in Barishal in the middle of April.

Horror Documentary

This testimony is from Amita Malik's The Year of the Vulture (New Delhi: Orient Longmans, 1972, pp. 79-83).

At the professors' funeral, Professor Rafiq-ul-Islam of the Bengali De-partment whispered to me, "At the television station you will find that there is a film record of the massacre of professors and students at Jagannath Hall. Ask them to show it to you."

This sounded so incredible that I did not really believe it. However, I wasted no time in asking Mr. Jamil Chowdhury, the station manager of TV, whether he did, indeed, have such a film with him. "Oh yes," he said, "but we have not shown it yet because it might have dreadful repercussions." He was, of course, referring to the fact that the

Pakistani army was still very much in Dacca in prisoner-of-war camps in the Cantonment, and it would have been dangerous to show them gunning down professors and students at Dacca University. The people of Dacca had shown tremendous restraint so far, but this would have been going a bit too far. However, I had it confirmed that N.B.C. VISNEWS and other international networks had already obtained and projected the film.

"But who shot the film?" I asked in wonder. "A professor at the University of Engineering, who had a video tape-recorder and whose flat overlooks the grounds of Jagannath Hall," said Mr. Chowdhury. It was therefore by kind courtesy of Dacca TV that I sat in their small projection room on January 5 and saw for the first time what must be a unique actuality film, something for the permanent archives of world history.

The film, lasting about 20 minutes, first shows small distant figures emerging from the hall carrying the corpses of what must be the students and professors massacred in Jagannath Hall. These are clearly civilian figures in lighter clothes and, at their back, seen strutting arrogantly even at that distance, are darker clad figures, the hoodlums of the Pakistan army. The bodies are laid down in neat, orderly rows by those forced to carry them at gun-point. Then the same procession troops back to the Hall. All this time, with no other sound, one hears innocent bird-song and a lazy cow is seen grazing on the university lawns. The same civilians come out again and the pile of bodies grows.

But after the third grisly trip, the action changes. After the corpses are laid on the ground, the people carrying them are lined up. One of them probably has a pathetic inkling of what is going to happen. He falls on his knees and clings to the legs of the nearest soldier, obviously pleading for mercy. But there is no mercy. One sees guns being pointed, one hears the crackle of gunfire and the lined up figures fall one by one, like the proverbial house of cards or, if you prefer, puppets in a children's film. At this stage, the bird-song suddenly stops. The lazy cow, with calf, careers wildly across the lawn and is joined by a whale herd of cows fleeing in panic.

But the last man is still clinging pathetically to the jack-boot of the soldier at the end of the row. The solider then lifts his shoulder at an angle, so that the gun points almost perpendicularly downwards to the man at his feet, and shoots him. The pleading hands unlink from the soldier's legs and another corpse joins the slumped bodies in a row, some piled on top of the very corpses they had to carry out at gunpoint, their own colleagues and friends. The soldiers prod each body with their rifles or bayonets to make sure that they are dead. A few who are still wriggling in their death agony are shot twice until they also stop wriggling.

At this stage, there is a gap, because Professor Nurul Ullah's film probably ran out and he had to load a new one. But by the time he starts filming again, nothing much has changed except that there is a fresh pile of bodies on the left. No doubt some other students and professors had been forced at gun-point to carry them out and then were executed in turn. In so far as one can count the bodies, or guess roughly at their number in what is really a continuous long-shot amateur film, there are about 50 bodies by this time. And enough, one should think.

Professor Nurul Ullah's world scoop indicated that he was a remarkable individual who through his presence of mind, the instinctive reaction of a man of science, had succeeded in shooting a film with invaluable documentary evidence regardless of the risk to his life. 

I immediately arranged to trace him down and he very kindly asked me to come round to his flat. Professor Nurul Ullah is a Professor of Electricity at the University of Engineering in Dacca. I found him to be a quiet, scholarly, soft-spoken, and surprisingly young man with a charming wife. He is normally engrossed in his teaching and students. But he happened to be the proud possessor of a video tape-recorder which he bought in Japan on his way back from a year at an American university. He is perhaps the only man alive who saw the massacre on the lawns of Dacca University on the first day of the Pakistani army crack-down. He took his film at great risk to his personal life. It was fascinating to sit down in Professor Nurul Ullah's sitting room and see the film twice with him, the second time after he had shown me the bedroom window at the back of his flat which overlooked both the street along which the soldiers drove to the university and the university campus. When he realized what was happening, he slipped his microphone outside [through] the window to record the sounds of firing. The film was shot from a long distance and under impossible conditions. Professor Nurul Ullah's description of how he shot the film was as dramatic and stirring as the film itself:

"On March 25, 1971, the day of the Pakistani crack-down, although I knew nothing about it at the time, my wife and I had just had breakfast and I was looking out of my back windows in the professors' block of flats in which I and my colleagues from the Engineering University live with our families. Our back windows overlook a street across which are the grounds of Jagannath Hall, one of the most famous halls of Dacca University. I saw an unusual sight, soldiers driving past my flat and going along the street which overlooks it, towards the entrance to the University. As curfew was on, they made announcements on loudspeakers from a jeep that people coming out on the streets would be shot. After a few minutes, I saw some people carrying out what were obviously dead bodies from Jagannath Hall. I immediately took out my loaded video tape recorder and decided to shoot a film through the glass of the window. It was not an ideal way to do it, but I was not sure what it was all about, and what with the curfew and all the tension, we were all being very cautious. As I started shooting the film, the people carrying out the dead bodies laid them down on the grass under the supervision of Pakistani soldiers who are distinguishable in the film, because of their dark clothes, the weapons they are carrying and the way they are strutting about contrasted with the civilians in lighter clothes who are equally obviously drooping with fright. As soon as firing started, I carefully opened the bedroom window wide enough for me to slip my small microphone just outside the window so that I could record the sound as well. But it was not very satisfactorily done, as it was very risky. My wife now tells me that she warned me at the time: ~re you mad, do you want to get shot too? One flash from your camera and they will kill us too.' But I don't remember her telling me, I must have been very absorbed in my shooting, and she says I took no notice of what she said. 

"It so happened that a few days earlier, from the same window I had shot some footage of student demonstrators on their way to the university. I little thought it would end this way.

"Anyway, this macabre procession of students carrying out bodies and laying them down on the ground was repeated until we realized with horror that the same students were themselves being lined up to be shot. After recording this dreadful sight on my video tape-recorder, I shut it off thinking it was all over only to realize that a fresh batch of university people were again carrying out bodies from inside. By the time I got my video tape-recorder going again, I had missed this new grisly procession but you will notice in the film that the pile of bodies is higher.

"I now want to show my film all over the world, because although their faces are not identifiable from that distance in what is my amateur film, one can certainly see the difference between the soldiers and their victims, one can see the shooting and hear it, one can see on film what my wife and I actually saw with our own eyes. And that is documentary evidence of the brutality of the Pak army and their massacre of the intellectuals."

Our Mothers and Sisters

The following testimony is from M. Akhtaurzzaman Mondol's "Amader-Ma Bon" ("Our Mother and Sisters") which appears in Rashid Haider (Ed.) 1971: Terrible Experiences, p. 197. It was translated by Sohela Nazneen. Reprinted with permission.

We started our fight to liberate Vurungamari from the Pakistani occupation forces on November 11. 1971. We started attacking from West, North and East simultaneously. The Indian air forces bombed the Pakistani stronghold on November 11 morning. On November 13 we came near the outskirts of Vurungamari, and the Indian air force intensified their air attack. On November 14 morning the guns from the Pakistani side fell silent and we entered Vurungamari with shouts of "Joy Bangla" (victory to Bangladesh). The whole town was quiet. We captured fifty to sixty Pakistani soldiers. They had no ammunition left. We found the captain of the Pakistan forces, captain Ataullah Khan, dead in the bunker. He still had his arms around a woman-both died in the bomb attack in the bunker. The woman had marks of torture all over her body. We put her in a grave.

But I still did not anticipate the terrible scene I was going to witness and we were heading toward east of Vurungamari to take up our positions. I was informed by wireless to go to the Circle Officer's office. After we reached the office, we caught glimpses of several young women through the windows of the second floor. The doors were locked. so we had to break them down. After breaking down the door of the room, where the women were kept, we were dumbfounded. We found four naked young women, who had been physically tortured, raped, and battered by the Pakistani soldiers. We immediately came out of the room and threw in four lungis [dresses] and four bedsheets for them to cover themselves. We tried to talk to them, but all of them were still in shock. One of them was six to seven months pregnant. One was a college student from Mymensingh. They were taken to India for medical treatment in a car owned by the Indian army. We found many dead bodies and skeletons in the bushes along the road. Many of the skeletons had long hair and had on torn saris and bangles on their hands. We found sixteen other women locked up in a room at Vurungamari High School. These women were brought in for the Pakistani soldiers from nearby villages. We found evidence in the rooms of the Circle Officers office which showed that these women were tied to the windowbars and were repeatedly raped by the Pakistani soldiers. The whole floor was covered with blood, torn pieces of clothing, and strands of long hair. ...

The Officer's Wife

This testimony is from Amita Malik's The Year of the Vulture, pp. 141-42.

Another pathetic case is that of a woman of about 25. Her husband was a government officer in a subdivision and she has three children. They first took away the husband, although she cried and pleaded with them. Then they returned him half-dead, after brutal torture. Then another lot of soldiers came in at 8 or 9 A.M. and raped her in front of her husband and children. They tied up the husband and hit the children when they cried.

Then another lot of soldiers came at 2.30 P.M. and took her away. They kept her in a bunker and used to rape her every night until she became senseless. When she returned after three months, she was pregnant. The villagers were very sympathetic about her but the husband refused to take her back. When the villagers kept on pressing him to take her back, he hanged himself. She is now in an advanced stage of pregnancy and we are doing all that we can do to help her. But she is inconsolable. She keeps on asking, "But why, why did they do it? It would have been better if we had both died."

The Maulvi's Story

This testimony appears in Arnica Malik's The Year of the Vulture, pp. 102-104.

On April 19, 1971, about 35 soldiers came to our village in a launch at about 8 A.M. A couple of days earlier, I had asked the Sheikh's father and mother to leave the village, but they refused. They said. "This is our home and we shall not go away." Soon after I heard the sound of the launch, a soldier came running and said, "Here Maulvi, stop, in which house are the father and mother of the Sheikh?" So first I brought out his father. We placed a chair for him but they made him sit on the ground. Then Sheikh Sahib's amma [mother] was brought out. She took hold of my hand and I made her sit on the chair. The soldiers then held a sten-gun against the back of the Sheikh's abba [father] and a rifle against mine. "We will kill you in 10 minutes," said a soldier looking at his watch.

Then they picked up a diary from the Sheikh's house and some medicine bottles and asked me for the keys of the house. I gave them the bunch of keys but they were so rough in trying to open the locks that the keys would not turn. So they kicked open the trunks. There was nothing much inside except five teaspoons, which they took. They saw a framed photograph and asked me whose it was. When I said it was Sheikh Sahib's, they took it down. I tried to get up at this stage but they hit me with their rifle ***** and I fell down against the chair. Finally, they picked up a very old suitcase and a small wooden box and made a servant carry them to the launch. 

Then they dragged me up to where the Sheikh's father was sitting and repeated, "We shall shoot you in 10 minutes." Pointing to the Sheikh's father, I asked: "What's the point of shooting him? He's an old man and a government pensioner." The soldiers replied, "Is lire, keonki wohne shaitan paida kira hai" ["Because he has produced a devil."]. "Why shoot me, the imam of the mosque?" I asked. Aap kiska imam hai? Aap vote dehtehain" ["What sort of an imam are you? You vote."], they replied. I said: "The party was not banned, we were allowed to vote for it. We are not leaders, we are janasadharan [the masses]. Why don't you ask the leaders?" The captain intervened to say that eight minutes were over and we would be shot in another two minutes. Just then a major came running from the launch and said we were to be let alone and not shot.

I immediately went towards the masjid (mosque) and saw about 50 villagers inside. Three boys had already been dragged out and shot. The soldiers asked me about a boy who, I said, was a krishak (cultivator). They looked at the mud on his legs and hands and let him go. Khan Sahib, the Sheikh's uncle, had a boy servant called Ershad. They asked me about him. I said he was a servant. But a Razakar maulvi, who had come with them from another village, said he was the Sheikh's relative, which was a lie. The boy Ershad was taken to the lineup. He asked for water but it was refused.

Another young boy had come from Dacca, where he was employed in a mill, to enquire about his father. He produced his identity card but they shot him all the same. They shot Ershad right in front of his mother. Ershad moved a little after falling down so they shot him again. Finally, the boy who had carried the boxes to the launch was shot. With the three shot earlier, a total of six innocent boys were shot by the Pakistani army without any provocation. They were all good-looking and therefore suspected to be relatives of the Sheikh.

After this, the Sheikh's father and mother were brought out of the house. Amma was almost fainting. And the house was set on fire and burnt down in front of our eyes until all that remained was the frame of the doorway which you can still see. Altonissa, the lady with the blood- stained clothes of her son, is the mother of Torab Yad Ali who was shot. They did not allow her to remove her son's body for burial, because they wanted the bodies to be exposed to public view to terrorize the villagers. They also shot Mithu, the 10-year old son of this widowed lady. She had brought him up with the greatest difficulty-they never had anything to eat except saag-bhaat (spinach and rice). They shot little Mithu because he had helped the Mukti Bahini. You can now ask the ladies about their narrow escape.

Shaheeda Sheikh, Sheikh Mujib's niece, then added that fortunately all the women were taken away to safety across the river to a neighbouring village three days before the Pakistani soldiers came. For months they had lived in constant terror of Razakars pouncing on them from bushes by the village pond. Beli Begum, Mujib's niece, a strikingly lovely woman, told me how she had fled from the village when seven months pregnant and walked 25 miles to safety. Pari, a girl cousin, escaped with a temperature of 104 degrees. Otherwise they would all have been killed. 

Massacre at Faiz Lake 

This testimony is from Abdul Gofran's "Faiz Lake-Gonohataya" ("Massacreat Faiz Lake"), which first appeared in Rashid Haider (ed.), 1971: 1errible Experiences. It was translated by Sohela Nazneen.

I own a shop near Akbar Shah mosque in Pahartali. On November lOth, 1971, at 6. A.M. about forty to fifty Biharis came to my shop and forced me to accompany them. I had to comply as any form of resistance would have been useless against such a large number of people. They took me to Faiz Lake. As we passed through the gates of Faiz Lake I saw that hundreds of non-Bengalis had assembled near the Pump house and wireless colony. The Bengalis who had been brought in were tied up. They were huddled by the side of the lake which was at the north side of the Pump-house. Many of the Biharis were carrying knives, swords and other sharp instruments. The Biharis were first kicking and beating up the Bengalis brutally and then were shoving their victims towards towards those carrying weapons. These other group of armed Biharis were then jabbing their victims in the stomach and then severing their heads with the swords. I witnessed several groups of Bengalis being killed in such a manner. ...When the Biharis came for me one of them took away my sweater. I hen punched him and jumped into the lake. ...I swam to the other side and hid among the bushes. .. The Biharis came to look for me but I was fortunate and barely escaped their notice. From my hiding place I witnessed the mass murder that was taking place. Many Bengalis were killed in the manner which had been described earlier.

The massacre went on till about two o'clock in the afternoon. After they had disposed off the last Bengal victim, the Biharis brought in a group of ten to twelve Bengali men. It was evident from their gestures that they were asking the Bengalis to dig a grave for the bodies lying about. I also understood from their gestures that the Biharis were promising the group that if they completed the task they would be allowed to go free. The group complied to their wish. After the group had finished burying the bodies, they were also killed, and the Biharis went away rejoicing. There were still many dead bodies thrown around the place.

In the afternoon many Biharis and [the] Pakistani army went along that road. But the Pakistani soldiers showed no sign of remorse. They seemed rather happy and did nothing to bury the dead. 

When night fell I came back to my shop but left Chittagong the next day.

_Genocide in Bangladesh
by Rounaq Jahan in Samuel Totten, et al. New York: Garland Publishing, 1997_


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## MastanKhan

AKzaman,

At this stage, your paste and post article is pretty useless. You have found a nation, build upon it. 

The germans found out in the 2nd world war that even if they had a thousand machine guns firing continuously for days, would not kill as many people as they anticipated. That is why they created the gas chambers. 

It is technically not possible to kill a million people even with a thousand machine guns firing for 48 hours continuously.

So what it comes down to from the article is that the pakistani millitary must have a maginficiant eternal hard-on for those 70000 plus troops who were raping these quarter of a million of bengali women continously at random and then killing some 3 million bengalis at the same time. In a mass killing scenario, it would take about on the average, roughly 20 rounds of machine gun fire to kill an individual, because there is so much wastage of fire power as people are not standing in one line, one behind the other to die. So, to kill 3 million people, there would be approximately 60 million rounds needed to do the job plus over a thousands of machine guns and then it could be close to six months of continuous 24 hour firing that they may still not achive even 1/3 rd of that goal---well the problem with these lies is that, unlike others, as many times they are told, they still are not believable.

Seems like there is a multiplier effect of 2000 thousand to 2500 hundred in that article. Which mean that the exageration level of rape and killings is that of 2000 times to 2500 times.

The bengalis a non-marcial race----that is indeed a stupid statement---whomsoever came up with that was only trying to cover up the truth to justify the exageration. The bengalis were first grade warriors at all times----so don't give me that sob story.


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## Ababeel

Marathaman said:


> Nationalistic Poison. Interesting term.
> 
> Btw....this whole "Ummah" thing....what are its origins?
> 
> Is it a recent concept, or has it been mentioned in the quran or hadiths.



If you don't know Quranic concept regarding Ummah, please don't meddle in what I ma saying.
A muslim has to follow the concepts provided by Quran and Sunnah. There is no such thing as "recent concept" in Islam.


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## Marathaman

kbagdadi said:


> If you don't know Quranic concept regarding Ummah, please don't meddle in what I ma saying.
> A muslim has to follow the concepts provided by Quran and Sunnah. There is no such thing as "recent concept" in Islam.



Er...then why am i asking questions.

Right...so I don't know about Islam...and when I ask you to tell me....I shouldn't poke my nose.

How silly of me.

I should have realized that the Bangladeshis here are too damn arrogant.


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## Adux

Marathaman said:


> I should have realized that the Bangladeshis here are too damn arrogant.



They are ok, we just have three here in Pakdef...who is rather weak in their brain cells....just them be


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## salman nedian

Kbagdadi,
We should answer Marathaman's question to clear his concept may be we get one converted.



Marathaman,
Muslim Ummah is the core concept of Islam its not any new concept. Quran and Hadith(Sayings of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)) clearly says that muslims are brothers and there is no discrimination among them regarding color,cast,nationality etc.

Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) in his last "Hajj" (Pilgrimage) sermon clearly mentioned that no arab is superior than any non-arab and vice versa.there is another Hadith by Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W):

"Muslims are like a body that if one part of the body gets hurt the hole body feels the pain"

Hope i answered ur question.


----------



## Marathaman

salman nedian said:


> Kbagdadi,
> We should answer Marathaman's question to clear his concept may be we get one converted.
> 
> 
> 
> Marathaman,
> Muslim Ummah is the core concept of Islam its not any new concept. Quran and Hadith(Sayings of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W)) clearly says that muslims are brothers and there is no discrimination among them regarding color,cast,nationality etc.
> 
> Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) in his last "Hajj" (Pilgrimage) sermon clearly mentioned that no arab is superior than any non-arab and vice versa.there is another Hadith by Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W):
> 
> "Muslims are like a body that if one part of the body gets hurt the hole body feels the pain"
> 
> Hope i answered ur question.




Thats alright....I googled it.

Thanks anyways


----------



## akzaman

*Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971 *

Summary

The mass killings in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) in 1971 vie with the annihilation of the Soviet POWs, the holocaust against the Jews, and the genocide in Rwanda as the most concentrated act of genocide in the twentieth century. In an attempt to crush forces seeking independence for East Pakistan, the West Pakistani military regime unleashed a systematic campaign of mass murder which aimed at killing millions of Bengalis, and likely succeeded in doing so.

The background

East and West Pakistan were forged in the cauldron of independence for the Indian sub-continent, ruled for two hundred years by the British. Despite the attempts of Mahatma Gandhi and others to prevent division along religious and ethnic lines, the departing British and various Indian politicians pressed for the creation of two states, one Hindu-dominated (India), the other Muslim-dominated (Pakistan). The partition of India in 1947 was one of the great tragedies of the century. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in sectarian violence and military clashes, as Hindus fled to India and Muslims to Pakistan -- though large minorities remained in each country.

The arrangement proved highly unstable, leading to three major wars between India and Pakistan, and very nearly a fourth full scale conflict in 1998-99. (Kashmir, divided by a ceasefire line after the first war in 1947, became one of the world's most intractable trouble-spots.) Not the least of the difficulties was the fact that the new state of Pakistan consisted of two "wings," divided by hundreds of miles of Indian territory and a gulf of ethnic identification. Over the decades, particularly after Pakistani democracy was stifled by a military dictatorship (1958), the relationship between East and West became progressively more corrupt and neo-colonial in character, and opposition to West Pakistani domination grew among the Bengali population.

Catastrophic floods struck Bangladesh in August 1970, and the regime was widely seen as having botched (or ignored) its relief duties. The disaster gave further impetus to the Awami League, led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. The League demanded regional autonomy for East Pakistan, and an end to military rule. In national elections held in December, the League won an overwhelming victory across Bengali territory.

On February 22, 1971 the generals in West Pakistan took a decision to crush the Awami League and its supporters. It was recognized from the first that a campaign of genocide would be necessary to eradicate the threat: "Kill three million of them," said President Yahya Khan at the February conference, "and the rest will eat out of our hands." (Robert Payne, Massacre [1972], p. 50.) On March 25 the genocide was launched. The university in Dacca was attacked and students exterminated in their hundreds. Death squads roamed the streets of Dacca, killing some 7,000 people in a single night. It was only the beginning. "Within a week, half the population of Dacca had fled, and at least 30,000 people had been killed. Chittagong, too, had lost half its population. All over East Pakistan people were taking flight, and it was estimated that in April some thirty million people [!] were wandering helplessly across East Pakistan to escape the grasp of the military." (Payne, Massacre, p. 48.) Ten million refugees fled to India, overwhelming that country's resources and spurring the eventual Indian military intervention. (The population of Bangladesh/East Pakistan at the outbreak of the genocide was about 75 million.)

On April 10, the surviving leadership of the Awami League declared Bangladesh independent. The Mukhta Bahini (liberation forces) were mobilized to confront the West Pakistani army. They did so with increasing skill and effectiveness, utilizing their knowledge of the terrain and ability to blend with the civilian population in classic guerrilla fashion. By the end of the war, the tide had turned, and vast areas of Bangladesh had been liberated by the popular resistance.

The gendercide against Bengali men

The war against the Bengali population proceeded in classic gendercidal fashion. According to Anthony Mascarenhas, "There is no doubt whatsoever about the targets of the genocide":

They were: (1) The Bengali militarymen of the East Bengal Regiment, the East Pakistan Rifles, police and para-military Ansars and Mujahids. (2) The Hindus -- "We are only killing the men; the women and children go free. We are soldiers not cowards to kill them ..." I was to hear in Comilla [site of a major military base] [Comments R.J. Rummel: "One would think that murdering an unarmed man was a heroic act" (Death By Government, p. 323)] (3) The Awami Leaguers -- all office bearers and volunteers down to the lowest link in the chain of command. (4) The students -- college and university boys and some of the more militant girls. (5) Bengali intellectuals such as professors and teachers whenever damned by the army as "militant." (Anthony Mascarenhas, The Rape of Bangla Desh [Delhi: Vikas Publications, 1972(?)], pp. 116-17.) 

Mascarenhas's summary makes clear the linkages between gender and social class (the "intellectuals," "professors," "teachers," "office bearers," and -- obviously -- "militarymen" can all be expected to be overwhelmingly if not exclusively male, although in many cases their families died or fell victim to other atrocities alongside them). In this respect, the Bangladesh events can be classed as a combined gendercide and elitocide, with both strategies overwhelmingly targeting males for the most annihilatory excesses.



Younger men and adolescent boys, of whatever social class, were equally targets. According to Rounaq Jahan, "All through the liberation war, able-bodied young men were suspected of being actual or potential freedom fighters. Thousands were arrested, tortured, and killed. Eventually cities and towns became bereft of young males who either took refuge in India or joined the liberation war." Especially "during the first phase" of the genocide, he writes, "young able-bodied males were the victims of indiscriminate killings." ("Genocide in Bangladesh," in Totten et al., Century of Genocide, p. 298.) R.J. Rummel likewise writes that "the Pakistan army [sought] out those especially likely to join the resistance -- young boys. Sweeps were conducted of young men who were never seen again. Bodies of youths would be found in fields, floating down rivers, or near army camps. As can be imagined, this terrorized all young men and their families within reach of the army. Most between the ages of fifteen and twenty-five began to flee from one village to another and toward India. Many of those reluctant to leave their homes were forced to flee by mothers and sisters concerned for their safety." (Death By Government, p. 329.) Rummel describes (p. 323) a chilling gendercidal ritual, reminiscent of Nazi procedure towards Jewish males: "In what became province-wide acts of genocide, Hindus were sought out and killed on the spot. As a matter of course, soldiers would check males for the obligated circumcision among Moslems. If circumcised, they might live; if not, sure death."

Robert Payne describes scenes of systematic mass slaughter around Dacca that, while not explicitly "gendered" in his account, bear every hallmark of classic gender-selective roundups and gendercidal slaughters of non-combatant men:

In the dead region surrounding Dacca, the military authorities conducted experiments in mass extermination in places unlikely to be seen by journalists. At Hariharpara, a once thriving village on the banks of the Buriganga River near Dacca, they found the three elements necessary for killing people in large numbers: a prison in which to hold the victims, a place for executing the prisoners, and a method for disposing of the bodies. The prison was a large riverside warehouse, or godown, belonging to the Pakistan National Oil Company, the place of execution was the river edge, or the shallows near the shore, and the bodies were disposed of by the simple means of permitting them to float downstream. The killing took place night after night. Usually the prisoners were roped together and made to wade out into the river. They were in batches of six or eight, and in the light of a powerful electric arc lamp, they were easy targets, black against the silvery water. The executioners stood on the pier, shooting down at the compact bunches of prisoners wading in the water. There were screams in the hot night air, and then silence. The prisoners fell on their sides and their bodies lapped against the shore. Then a new bunch of prisoners was brought out, and the process was repeated. In the morning the village boatmen hauled the bodies into midstream and the ropes binding the bodies were cut so that each body drifted separately downstream. (Payne, Massacre [Macmillan, 1973], p. 55.) 

Strikingly similar and equally hellish scenes are described in the case-studies of genocide in Armenia and the Nanjing Massacre of 1937.

Atrocities against Bengali women

As was also the case in Armenia and Nanjing, Bengali women were targeted for gender-selective atrocities and abuses, notably gang sexual assault and rape/murder, from the earliest days of the Pakistani genocide. Indeed, despite (and in part because of) the overwhelming targeting of males for mass murder, it is for the systematic brutalization of women that the "Rape of Bangladesh" is best known to western observers.

In her ground-breaking book, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Susan Brownmiller likened the 1971 events in Bangladesh to the Japanese rapes in Nanjing and German rapes in Russia during World War II. "... 200,000, 300,000 or possibly 400,000 women (three sets of statistics have been variously quoted) were raped. Eighty percent of the raped women were Moslems, reflecting the population of Bangladesh, but Hindu and Christian women were not exempt. ... Hit-and-run rape of large numbers of Bengali women was brutally simple in terms of logistics as the Pakistani regulars swept through and occupied the tiny, populous land ..." (p. 81).

Typical was the description offered by reporter Aubrey Menen of one such assault, which targeted a recently-married woman:

Two [Pakistani soldiers] went into the room that had been built for the bridal couple. The others stayed behind with the family, one of them covering them with his gun. They heard a barked order, and the bridegroom's voice protesting. Then there was silence until the bride screamed. Then there was silence again, except for some muffled cries that soon subsided. In a few minutes one of the soldiers came out, his uniform in disarray. He grinned to his companions. Another soldier took his place in the extra room. And so on, until all the six had raped the belle of the village. Then all six left, hurriedly. The father found his daughter lying on the string cot unconscious and bleeding. Her husband was crouched on the floor, kneeling over his vomit. (Quoted in Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 82.) 

"Rape in Bangladesh had hardly been restricted to beauty," Brownmiller writes. "Girls of eight and grandmothers of seventy-five had been sexually assaulted ... Pakistani soldiers had not only violated Bengali women on the spot; they abducted tens of hundreds and held them by force in their military barracks for nightly use." Some women may have been raped as many as eighty times in a night (Brownmiller, p. 83). How many died from this atrocious treatment, and how many more women were murdered as part of the generalized campaign of destruction and slaughter, can only be guessed at (see below).

Despite government efforts at amelioration, the torment and persecution of the survivors continued long after Bangladesh had won its independence:

Rape, abduction and forcible prostitution during the nine-month war proved to be only the first round of humiliation for the Bengali women. Prime Minister Mujibur Rahman's declaration that victims of rape were national heroines was the opening shot of an ill-starred campaign to reintegrate them into society -- by smoothing the way for a return to their husbands or by finding bridegrooms for the unmarried [or widowed] ones from among his Mukti Bahini freedom fighters. Imaginative in concept for a country in which female chastity and purdah isolation are cardinal principles, the "marry them off" campaign never got off the ground. Few prospective bridegrooms stepped forward, and those who did made it plain that they expected the government, as father figure, to present them with handsome dowries. (Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 84.) 

How many died?

The number of dead in Bangladesh in 1971 was almost certainly well into seven figures. It was one of the worst genocides of the World War II era, outstripping Rwanda (800,000 killed) and probably surpassing even Indonesia (1 million to 1.5 million killed in 1965-66). As R.J. Rummel writes,

The human death toll over only 267 days was incredible. Just to give for five out of the eighteen districts some incomplete statistics published in Bangladesh newspapers or by an Inquiry Committee, the Pakistani army killed 100,000 Bengalis in Dacca, 150,000 in Khulna, 75,000 in Jessore, 95,000 in Comilla, and 100,000 in Chittagong. For eighteen districts the total is 1,247,000 killed. This was an incomplete toll, and to this day no one really knows the final toll. Some estimates of the democide [Rummel's "death by government"] are much lower -- one is of 300,000 dead -- but most range from 1 million to 3 million. ... The Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.) 

The proportion of men versus women murdered is impossible to ascertain, but a speculation might be attempted. If we take the highest estimates for both women raped and Bengalis killed (400,000 and 3 million, respectively); if we accept that half as many women were killed as were raped; and if we double that number for murdered children of both sexes (total: 600,000), we are still left with a death-toll that is 80 percent adult male (2.4 million out of 3 million). Any such disproportion, which is almost certainly on the low side, would qualify Bangladesh as one of the worst gendercides against men in the last half-millennium.

Who was responsible?

"For month after month in all the regions of East Pakistan the massacres went on," writes Robert Payne. "They were not the small casual killings of young officers who wanted to demonstrate their efficiency, but organized massacres conducted by sophisticated staff officers, who knew exactly what they were doing. Muslim soldiers, sent out to kill Muslim peasants, went about their work mechanically and efficiently, until killing defenseless people became a habit like smoking cigarettes or drinking wine. ... Not since Hitler invaded Russia had there been so vast a massacre." (Payne, Massacre, p. 29.)

There is no doubt that the mass killing in Bangladesh was among the most carefully and centrally planned of modern genocides. A cabal of five Pakistani generals orchestrated the events: President Yahya Khan, General Tikka Khan, chief of staff General Pirzada, security chief General Umar Khan, and intelligence chief General Akbar Khan. The U.S. government, long supportive of military rule in Pakistan, supplied some \\$3.8 million in military equipment to the dictatorship after the onset of the genocide, "and after a government spokesman told Congress that all shipments to Yahya Khan's regime had ceased." (Payne, Massacre, p. 102.)

The genocide and gendercidal atrocities were also perpetrated by lower-ranking officers and ordinary soldiers. These "willing executioners" were fuelled by an abiding anti-Bengali racism, especially against the Hindu minority. "Bengalis were often compared with monkeys and chickens. Said Pakistan General Niazi, 'It was a low lying land of low lying people.' The Hindus among the Bengalis were as Jews to the ######: scum and vermin that [should] best be exterminated. As to the Moslem Bengalis, they were to live only on the sufferance of the soldiers: any infraction, any suspicion cast on them, any need for reprisal, could mean their death. And the soldiers were free to kill at will. The journalist Dan Coggin quoted one Punjabi captain as telling him, 'We can kill anyone for anything. We are accountable to no one.' This is the arrogance of Power." (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 335.) 

The aftermath

On December 3, India under Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, seeking to return the millions of Bengali refugees and seize an opportunity to weaken its perennial military rival, finally launched a fullscale intervention to crush West Pakistani forces and secure Bangladeshi independence. The Pakistani army, demoralized by long months of guerrilla warfare, quickly collapsed. On December 16, after a final genocidal outburst, the Pakistani regime agreed to an unconditional surrender. Awami leader Sheikh Mujib was released from detention and returned to a hero's welcome in Dacca on January 10, 1972, establishing Bangladesh's first independent parliament.

In a brutal bloodletting following the expulsion of the Pakistani army, perhaps 150,000 people were murdered by the vengeful victors. (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 334.) The trend is far too common in such post-genocidal circumstances (see the case-studies of Rwanda, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, and the Soviet POWs). Such largescale reprisal killings also tend to have a gendercidal character, which may have been the case in Bangladesh: Jahan writes that during the reprisal stage, "another group of Bengali men in the rural areas -- those who were coerced or bribed to collaborate with the Pakistanis -- fell victims to the attacks of Bengali freedom fighters." ("Genocide in Bangladesh," p. 298; emphasis added.)

None of the generals involved in the genocide has ever been brought to trial, and all remain at large in Pakistan and other countries. Several movements have arisen to try to bring them before an international tribunal (see Bangladesh links for further information). 

Political and military upheaval did not end with Bangladeshi independence. Rummel notes that "the massive bloodletting by all parties in Bangladesh affected its politics for the following decades. The country has experienced military coup after military coup, some of them bloody." (Death By Government, p. 334.) 
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html


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## roadrunner

Your simply rehashing a lot of the old, out of date propaganda that has already been disproven, akazaman. 



Akzaman said:


> Typical was the description offered by *reporter* *Aubrey Menen* of one such assault, which targeted a recently-married woman:
> 
> Two [Pakistani soldiers] went into the room that had been built for the bridal couple. The others stayed behind with the family, one of them covering them with his gun. They heard a barked order, and the bridegroom's voice protesting. Then there was silence until the bride screamed. Then there was silence again, except for some muffled cries that soon subsided. In a few minutes one of the soldiers came out, his uniform in disarray. He grinned to his companions. Another soldier took his place in the extra room. And so on, until all the six had raped the belle of the village. Then all six left, hurriedly. The father found his daughter lying on the string cot unconscious and bleeding. Her husband was crouched on the floor, kneeling over his vomit. (Quoted in Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 82.)



Aubrey Menon believe it or not was in fact half-Bharati despite his Western sounding name, so obviously he had a lot of bias in his reporting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_Menen


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## roadrunner

Oh, and then there's this other clown 



akazaman said:


> The army also launched armed attacks in Chittagong, Comilla, Khulna, and other garrison cities. *Simon Dring*, a reporter with the Daily Telegraph London, and Michel Laurent, an Associated Press photographer, escaped the Pakistani dragnet, and roamed Dhaka and the countryside. On March 28 they reported that the loss of life had reached 15,000 in the countryside. On the Dhaka University campus, seventeen professors and some 200 students were killed in cold blood



Alright, sounds pretty bad again, 15,000, wow. A neutral reporter like Simon Dring reporting it, now that must be true. Well, not quite, would a neutral reporter on the War of independence have Gone to live in Bangladesh and work for the government in a top job for 25 years until being backstabbed? 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2289982.stm


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## roadrunner

And another of your excellent sources! 



akzaman said:


> In her ground-breaking book, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape*, Susan Brownmiller *likened the 1971 events in Bangladesh to the Japanese rapes in Nanjing and German rapes in Russia during World War II. "... 200,000, 300,000 or possibly 400,000 women (three sets of statistics have been variously quoted) were raped. Eighty percent of the raped women were Moslems, reflecting the population of Bangladesh, but Hindu and Christian women were not exempt. ... Hit-and-run rape of large numbers of Bengali women was brutally simple in terms of logistics as the Pakistani regulars swept through and occupied the tiny, populous land ..." (p. 81).



This from someone trying to sell her book to make millions - sensationalism is the name of the game. Can you describe her as a neutral source. Let's say you write a book and want to sell it. Do you sensationalize it or right a book saying nothing untoward happened? I think you'll find ALL these people in your sources have VESTED INTERESTS (not to mention an unhealthy obsession with genitals in the case of Brownmiller).


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## roadrunner

In fact, let me quote you a NEUTRAL source, Sarmilla Bose. Tell me which book she has tried to sell over this incident, or which job she accepted courtesy of the Awami League in Bangladesh after the war? 

Perhaps some photographic evidence is needed here 



The victims clearly wearing Kameez in the Jessore Massacre photos, yet the Bangladeshi War Museum claims these are victims of Pakistani Army!! Were they massacring their own people?? If the Bangladeshi War Museum can try indoctrinating a docile population despite photographic evidence showing otherwise, do you not think it's possible that many other incidences that were perpetrated by Bengalis, were also blamed on the Pakistani Army falsely just like the above proof? Yes, I do. 

More about this

*The truth about the Jessore massacre 
The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasnt committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose 

BITTER TRUTH: Civilians massacred in Jessore in 1971 ? but by whom? 

RECOGNITION DENIED: Father and son killed in Dhaka in 1971 
The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies. 

The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore. It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war. 

It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites. 

Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city. 

The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre. 

And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them? 

It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasnt committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists. 

It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistans military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladeshs independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed. 

Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or Biharis, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India. 

As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial. The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore. East Pakistani sources said, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo. 

In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal, The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib, wrote Tomalin, we saw another 40 Punjabi spies being taken towards the killing ground? 

Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the mid-day murder of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali irregulars were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment. 

Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the governments control. Like many other places, local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians. 

Tomalin records the local Bengalis claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore. 

There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brothers bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a mans body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet. 

Amar Surs anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a shaheed, but their home was declared vested property by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government. 

In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and sons dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army. Foreigners might just have mistaken the lungi worn by Sur for a saree, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a lungi when they see one! And why present the same body twice? 

The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post bought that story too. The medias reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times. 

As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.
*

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060319/asp/look/story_5969733.asp


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Sarmila Bose was born in Boston, USA).

She is controversial for her writing on the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War, suggesting that the casualties and rape allegations in the Bangladesh Liberation War were greatly exaggerated for political purposes.. Her views have been critised strongly in Bangladesh and her research methods have been attacked as shoddy and biased.

How come you did not mention that she(Bose) is a "Bharati" as you did for Aubrey Menen, who hardly has any connection with India?

Rather neutral yourself, what? 

Weather vane!


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## Adux

Sir,

A half-knowledged *** is more dangerous than a wise-*** as well as idiotic ***!!!!!!!!!

Adu


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## Tiki Tam Tam

An estimated 400,000 Bangladeshi women were raped by the Pakistan army
during the Bangladesh war for independence in 1971, according to Women for
Women, a Washington-based woman's advocacy group that was created in
response to widespread rape in the Bosnian war

http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9904/msg00312.html

May see these also:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities
http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_rape.htm
http://www.bangladeshmariners.com/HmdrRprt/tears1.html

Can produce more.

It is an unfortunate part of Pakistani history and enough documentation has been done by various reporters and agencies (not "Bharati" alone) at that time, why rake it up?

And here is Sharmila Bose:

http://drishtipat.org/sarmila/sarmila.htm

Unfortunately, you will miss out the ones in Bengali.


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Sarmila Bose was born in Boston, USA).
> 
> She is controversial for her writing on the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War, suggesting that the casualties and rape allegations in the Bangladesh Liberation War were greatly exaggerated for political purposes.. Her views have been critised strongly in Bangladesh and her research methods have been attacked as shoddy and biased.
> 
> How come you did not mention that she(Bose) is a "Bharati" as you did for Aubrey Menen, who hardly has any connection with India?
> 
> Rather neutral yourself, what?
> 
> Weather vane!



actually a lot of the bangladeshi experts on the war agree with s bose. at least that is what they said in the recent conference.


----------



## roadrunner

Salim said:


> An estimated 400,000 Bangladeshi women were raped by the Pakistan army
> during the Bangladesh war for independence in 1971, according to Women for
> Women, a Washington-based woman's advocacy group that was created in
> response to widespread rape in the Bosnian war
> 
> http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9904/msg00312.html
> 
> May see these also:
> 
> http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_rape.htm
> http://www.bangladeshmariners.com/HmdrRprt/tears1.html
> 
> Can produce more.
> 
> It is an unfortunate part of Pakistani history and enough documentation has been done by various reporters and agencies (not "Bharati" alone) at that time, why rake it up?



dude, look at your links! "religioustolerance.org", "bangaldeshmariners.com" (highly neutral sources!), wiki ------   

once again, in every war, atrocities are committed, some rapes do occur, but i can bet more bihari women were raped by the muktahi bahini than the other way round. You have one disciplined army and another rag tag mango drinking army. Logically the rag tag army would be the most undisciplined. 

PS, your gendercide website is full of nonsense. There is also Rummel's calculation which really does have questionable methodology. Bose's methodology is not questionable. She makes NO guesses about how many people may have died, whereas Rummel DOES. I hope I dont need to explain this, since i'm sure even a chimp can understand why one is questionable and the other is not.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> dude, look at your links! "religioustolerance.org", "bangaldeshmariners.com" (highly neutral sources!), wiki ------
> 
> once again, in every war, atrocities are committed, some rapes do occur, but i can bet more bihari women were raped by the muktahi bahini than the other way round. You have one disciplined army and another rag tag mango drinking army. Logically the rag tag army would be the most undisciplined.
> 
> PS, your gendercide website is full of nonsense. There is also Rummel's calculation which really does have questionable methodology. Bose's methodology is not questionable. She makes NO guesses about how many people may have died, whereas Rummel DOES. *I hope I dont need to explain this, since i'm sure even a chimp can understand why one is questionable and the other is not.*



Naturally, they are all nonsense!

But then, of course, Bose is the only Daniel come to judgement!!

And guess who was using Wikipedia inthe first place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_Menen

No guess on that I am sure.

Again, it shows that its a weather vane in action!

Things are perfectly valid when you use them and Not Valid when others do!

A man of convenience, right?!

*A chimp can understand?* and *you are telling us that you do*?


----------



## Adux

roadrunner said:


> once again, in every war, atrocities are committed, some rapes do occur, but i can bet more bihari women were raped by the muktahi bahini than the other way round. You have one disciplined army and another rag tag mango drinking army. Logically the rag tag army would be the most undisciplined.
> 
> .



You mean the army, which has violated the very oath it has taken in more than 1 ocassion to take control of the country, when their were by consititution was supposed to serve it, not rule, Yes very highly diciplined army indeed


----------



## HK-47

> How come you did not mention that she(Bose) is a "Bharati" as you did for Aubrey Menen, who hardly has any connection with India?


I guess she is liked there in Pakistan as she sided with their side of the argument.



> actually a lot of the bangladeshi experts on the war agree with s bose. at least that is what they said in the recent conference.


care to show me?what recent conference?
LOL Bihari women raped by the Mukti Bahini,maybe they were killed and some might have been raped but not on the same scale as were Bengali women.we do acknowledge that Biharis were killed,as they were regarded as collaborators but you don't acknowledge the extent of the barbarity made by your armed forces.Last year even a former PAF air marshal said war criminals should be brought to trial.

Don't take me as anti-Pakistan.


----------



## Marathaman

Its really interesting how in spite of the East Pakistan Holocaust, the Bangladeshis here are jumping head-over-heals to suck up to Pakistan.


----------



## HK-47

well am I?how?


----------



## akzaman

*The Terrible Blood Bath of Tikka Khan*

Ever since the Pakistani civil war broke out last March, President Mohammad Yahya Khan has done his utmost to prevent reports on the ruthless behavior Pakistani Army in putting down the Bengali fight for independence from reaching the outside world. Most foreign journalists have been barred from East Pakistan, and only those West Pakistani newsmen who might be expected to produce "friendly" accounts have been invited to tour East Pakistan and tell their countrymen about the rebellion. In at least one instance, however, that policy backfired. Anthony Mascarenhas, a Karachi newsman who also writes for London Sunday Times, was so horrified by that he and his family fled to London to publish the full story. Last week, in the Times, Mascarenhas wrote -that he was told repeatedly by Pakistani military and civil authorities in Dacca that the government intends to cleanse East Pakistan once and for all of the threat of secession, even if it means killing off 2 million people. And the federal army, concluded Mascarenhas, is doing exactly that with a terrifying thoroughness.

That the Pakistan Army is visiting a dreadful blood bath upon the people of East Pakistan is also affirmed by newsmen and others who have witnessed the flight of 6 million terrified refugees into neighboring India. NEWSWEEKs Tony Clifton recently visited Indias refugee-dogged border regions and cabled the following report:

Anyone who goes to the camps and hospitals along Indias border with Pakstan comes away believing the Punjabi Army capable of any atrocity. I have seen babies who've been shot, men who have had their backs whipped raw. I've seen people literally struck **** by the horror of seeing their children murdered in front of them or their daughters dragged off into sexual slavery. I have no doubt at all that there have been a hundred My Lais and Lidices in East Pakistan-and I think there will be more. My personal reaction is one of wonder more than anything else. I've seen too many bodies to be horrified by anything much any more. But I find myself standing still again and again, wondering how any man can work himself into such a murderous frenzy.

Slaughter: The story of one shy little girl in a torn pink dress with red and green Bowers has a peculiar horror. She could not have been a danger to anyone. Yet I met her in a hospital at Krishnanagar, hanging nervously back among the other patients, her hand covering the livid scar on her neck where a Pakistani soldier had cut her throat with his bayonet. "I am Ismatar, the daughter of the late Ishague Ali," she told me formally. "My father was a businessman in Khustia.

About two months ago he left our house and went to his shop and I never saw him again. That same night after I went to bed I heard shouts and screaming, and when I went to see what was happening, the Punjabi soldiers were there. My four sisters were lying dead on the floor, and I saw that they had killed my mother. While I was there they shot my brother-he was a bachelor of science. Then a soldier saw me and stabbed me with his knife. I fell to the floor and played dead. When the soldiers left I ran and a man picked me up on his bicycle and I was brought here."

Suddenly, as if she could no longer bear to think about her ordeal, the girl left the room. The hospital doctor was explaining to me that she was brought to the hospital literally soaked in her own blood, when she pushed her way back through the patients and stood directly in front of me. "What am I to do?" she asked. "Once I had five sisters and a brother and a father and a mother. Now I have no family. I am an orphan. Where can I go? What will happen to me?"

Victims: "Youll be all right," I said stupidly. "You're safe here." But what will happen to her and to the thousands of boys and girls and men and women who have managed to drag themselves away from the burning villages whose flames I saw lighting up the East Pakistani sky each night? The hospital in Agartala, the capital city of Tripura, is just half a mile from the border, and it is already overcrowded with the victims of the rampaging Pakistani Army. There is a boy of 4 who survived a bullet through his stomach, and a woman who listlessly relates how the soldiers murdered two of her children in front of her eyes, and then shot her as she held her youngest child in her alms. "The bullet passed through the baby's buttocks and then through her left arm," Dr. R. Datta, the medical superintendent, explains. "But she regained consciousness and dragged herself and the baby to the border." Another woman, the bones in her upper leg shattered by bullets, cradles an infant in her arms. She had given birth prematurely in a paddy field alter she was shot. Yet, holding her newborn child in one hand and pulling herlelf along with the other, she finally reached the border.

"Although I know these people, I am continually amazed at how tough they are," says Datta. Still, there are some who cannot cope. I step over two small boys lying on the floor, clinging to each other like monkeys. ..Refugees say their village was burned about a week ago and everyone in it was killed except these two," the doctor says. "We have had them for three days and we don't know who they are. They are so terrified--- by what they saw they are unable to speak. They just lie there holding onto each other. It is almost impossible to get them apart even long enough to feed them. It is hard to say when they will regain their speech or be able to live normal lives again."

New Jersey Congressman Cornelius Gallagher, who visited the Agartala hospital, says he came to india thinking the atrocity stories were exaggerated. But when he actually saw the wounded he began to believe that; if anything, the reports had been toned down. A much-decorated officer with Patton in Europe during World War II, Gallagher told me: "In the war, I saw the worst areas of France-the killing grounds in Normandy-but I never saw anything like that. It took all of my strength to keep from breaking down and crying."

Rape: Other foreigners, too, were dubious about the atrocities at first, but the endless repetition of stories from different sources convinced them. "I am certain that troops have thrown babies into the air and caught them on their bayonets," says Briton, John Hastings, a Methodist missionary who has lived in Bengal for twenty years. "I am certain that troops have raped girls repeatedly, then killed them by pushing their bayonets up between their legs."

All this savagery suggests that the Pakistani Army is either crazed by blood or, more likely, is carrying out a calculated policy of terror amounting to genocide against the whole Bengali population. 

The architect appears to be Lt. Gen. Tikka Khan, the military governor of East Pakistan. Presumably, Pakistan's President knows something about what is going on, but he may not realize that babies are being burned alive, girls sold into virtual slavery and whole families murdered. He told the military governor to put down a rebellion, and Tikka Khan has done it efficiently and ruthlessly. As a result, East Pakistan is still nominally part of Pakistan. But the brutality inflicted by West on East in the last three months has made it certain that it will only be a matter of time before Pakistan becomes two countries. And those two countries will be irreparably split-at least until the last of today's maimed and brutalized children grow old and die with their memories of what happened when Yahya Khan decided to preserve their country.

Newsweek June 28, 1971; pp. 43-44


----------



## Adux

The extend of the East Pakistani plight under the hands of west pakistan can found from the ally of Pakistan USA's amabassador to DACCA urgent telegraph to President Nixon. Those are now released and are available, It is one of the darkest times in Pakistani history.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> actually a lot of the bangladeshi experts on the war agree with s bose. at least that is what they said in the recent conference.



It would be worthwhile to have the links of this conference as also of these 'experts'.

***************

Bangladesh is 'sucking' to Pakistan for a variety of reasons, that is if you wish to call it 'sucking up'.

One, is that there is this Islamist resurgence that is gripping the country. Pakistan is a soul brother and Islamists are no friends of India!

Two, Ms Zia is the wife of a ex Pakistani Army officer. If one saw the link and read the article of Brig Khan that I posted, one would realise the psyche that is built up in the Pakistani officers about India. One cannot totally avoid being influenced by the past, since military wives too get affected by the ways of the Army.

Three, India has not done much for Bangaldesh after the Liberation of Bangladesh. One cannot demand friendship. It has to be cultivated with a give and take policy. Therefore, one cannot expect any extra friendly relationship from the side of Bangladesh. It is time for the mandarins of Delhi to mull over this.


----------



## roadrunner

HK-47 said:


> care to show me?what recent conference?





Salim said:


> It would be worthwhile to have the links of this conference as also of these 'experts'.



Sure 

One was FS Aijazuddin OBE, another was dr Imtiaz Ahmed, another was dr Ali Riaz. There were plenty more there of course. Bose too is a Bengali. Just so that your disbelief is disproven KH-47, here is the link to the conference

*Session 3:
South Asia in Crisis during the Nixon Administration 

Loy Henderson Auditorium


Chair: Dr. Peter A. Kraemer, Office of the Historian, U.S. Department of State

Panelists:
We do not see any sign or hope: U.S.-Bangladesh Contacts in 1971
Dr. Ali Riaz, Illinois State University

The 1971 South Asian Crisis: U.S. Policy Revisited
Dr. Imtiaz Ahmed, University of Dhaka 

 Anatomy of Violence: An Analysis of Acts of Terror in East Pakistan in 1971
Dr. Sarmila Bose, George Washington University 

Nixon's White House and Pakistan: The Tilt that Failed
F.S. Aijazuddin, OBE *

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm 

As you can see it is a recent conference that most reputed scholars accept (not the people with chips on their shoulders and vested interests). 



> LOL Bihari women raped by the Mukti Bahini,maybe they were killed and some might have been raped but not on the same scale as were Bengali women.we do acknowledge that Biharis were killed,as they were regarded as collaborators but you don't acknowledge the extent of the barbarity made by your armed forces.Last year even a former PAF air marshal said war criminals should be brought to trial.



Perhaps you missed the point. It is easy when you have your Bonglaboboo tinted spectacles on complete with thick black rimming. Your assertion that Bengali women MUST have been raped more than Bihari women is a complete figment of your spectacle tinted imagination. I, myself, cannot even claim to know the exact figures, or even which group of people were raped more, because there were no accurate counts done. However I do know that the Muktihi Bahini did rape many Bihari women, and quite possibly the Razakhars raped quite a few Bengali women in tit for tat reprisals. Personally I doubt Pakistan Army would do it, but it's been shown in every war that rapes do occur by soldiers so I would not exclude PA. The former PAF air marshal is right, war criminals should be brought to trial in ANY way. Atrocities were committed by both sides, Muktihi Bahini thugs should also be brought to trial, as should Razakhars, and any PA soldier who committed any crime during the war (I think you'll find that many of the massacres like Jessore were committed by Muktihi Bahini soldiers, once again these have been PROVEN). I am all for every single perpetrator of crime being brought forward, including the millions of Bengali criminals. 



> Don't take me as anti-Pakistan.



Don't take me as anti Bengali or anti Indian.


----------



## roadrunner

The Blood Telegram has been retracted by Archer Blood in his memoirs. He was the US ambassador in Dhakka and he claimed in a letter to Nixon in 1971 that it was a genocide, but this was based on situation reports from an Indian (aka Bharati) official. In 2002, Archer Blood retracted his comments about it being a genocide, and conceded Pakistani Army were doing what they could to secure the countryside. He admitted his error.


----------



## Marathaman

Salim said:


> Three, India has not done much for Bangaldesh after the Liberation of Bangladesh. One cannot demand friendship. It has to be cultivated with a give and take policy. Therefore, one cannot expect any extra friendly relationship from the side of Bangladesh. It is time for the mandarins of Delhi to mull over this.




Yeah....the Indian Politicians are behaving in a rather high-handed manner I must say.

They think B'desh owes a lifetime of debt for helping liberate them.


----------



## HK-47

any link about Blood's retraction?



> once again, in every war, atrocities are committed, some rapes do occur, but i can bet more bihari women were raped by the muktahi bahini than the other way round. You have one disciplined army and another rag tag mango drinking army. Logically the rag tag army would be the most undisciplined.


The Mukti bahini was formed gradually.They were always on the run,hiding as Pak forces were superior in numbers and strength.I personally believe that they never had much time strolling into a Bihari house and rape the women there with Pak forces everywhere in the country.



> Personally I doubt Pakistan Army would do it, but it's been shown in every war that rapes do occur by soldiers so I would not exclude PA.


yes true enough,thing is you don't accept our numbers of casualties and rape.You are saying more Bihari women were raped than Bengali women.you got any evidence?
Maybe,maybe the dead toll wasn't 3 million(God forgive me if I am wrong) but surely it was more than Pakistanis say.


----------



## akzaman

*Pakistan: Vultures and Wild Dogs*

For more than two weeks, the Pakistani Army of President Mohammed Yahya Khan had played a curious waiting game, Sitting tight in their well-fortified cantonments in the rebellious eastern wing of their divided country, the federal troops virtually ignored the taunts of the secessionist "liberation forces." But then early last week, the lull came to a sudden end, Springing from their strongholds, the Punjabi regulars simultaneously staged more than a dozen devastating attacks from one end of beleaguered East Pakistan to the other, And when the blitzkrieg was over, it was clear that the less-than-one-month-old Republic of Bangla Desh (Bengal nation) had been delivered a stunning blow.

In a civil war already marked by brutality, the lightning attacks were notable for their savagery, In the port city of Chittagong, Pakistani troops reportedly forced Bengali prisoners to ride on the front of a truck, shouting "Victory for Bengal" - an independence slogan. When other Bengalis emerged from their hiding places, the Pakistanis opened fire with machine guns. And in the cities of Sylhet and Comilla along the eastern border, West Pakistani firepower routed the folIowers of nationalist leader Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and left the bodies of scores of dead peasants to be picked apart by vultures and wild dogs.

All in all, the bitter campaign seemed to suggest that the West Pakistanis had more than purely military objectives in mind. In city after city, in fact, the soldiers were apparently determined to shatter the economic base of East Pakistan in order to crush the independence movement. On orders from the Islamabad high command, troops systematically gunned down students, engineers, doctors and any other persons with a potential for leadership, whether they were nationalists or not. "They want to push us back to the eighteenth century," said one Bengali soldier," so that there will be famine and we will be reduced to eating grass. They want to make sure that no head will ever be raised against them again."

Despite the devastating offensive, the Bengalis showed little inclination to throw in the towel. A group of Mujib's Awami League colleagues announced the formation of a Bangla Desh war Cabinet, promising "freedom as long as there is sun over Bengal." Beyond the rhetoric, the rebels were hoping that the approaching monsoon season would sever the West Pakistanis' already strained logistical lifeline. "The supply lines are Yahya Khan's Achilles' heel," said one pro-Bengali analyst. "By our calculations, the Pakistani Army is facing the monsoons without a supply margin. The commanders cannot be happy."

Locked Up: Happy or not, the West Pakistani leaders had, most observers said, good reason for confidence. The Westerners claimed to have Mujib locked up and awaiting trial on charges of treason. And with the dynamic, 51-year-old symbol of the rebel movement seemingly out of the way, the new government appeared to be more shadow than substance. In the field, the Bengalis have suffered staggering casualties, losing as many as 25,000 men. 

More important, the fighting disposition of the Bengalis was increasingly open to question. "I met a steady stream of refugees carrying their belongings in big bundles on their heads and driving small Hocks of scrawny goats or cattle," cabled NEWSWEEK'S Milan I. Kubic after a trip into East Pakistan last week. "But I saw only one Toyota jeep of the 'Mukti fouj,' Bengal's liberation army. Its unarmed driver, a young Bengali from Jhingergacha, had an idea that the enemy was just up the road, but neither he nor the two other soldiers with him seemed anxious to seek battle. 'What would we fight with?' he asked with a grin. 'We haven't got anything'."

Neighbors: That let-someone-else-do-it attitude, combined with the absence of effective central leadership, did not augur well for Bangla Desh. But one big question mark remained: the reaction of the neighboring big powers-China and India. Almost from the beginning of the conflict, the West Pakistanis have charged that arch-rival India was an active participant on the side of East Pakistan. And last week Islamabad officials claimed to have wiped out two companies of Indian border-security forces allegedly operating within the eastern province.

For its part, New Delhi stoutly denied any direct involvement. And most observers on the scene supported that contention. Moreover, it seemed certain that President Yahya Khan was trumpeting the charges at least in part to unite his own people-many of whom had gotten queasy about the reports of full-scale slaughter in the east. But it was equally apparent that New Delhi had indeed gone out of its way to make friendly noises toward the rebel Bengalis-and to take a slap at Islamabad. Throughout the week, Indian newspapers gleefully carried accounts of purported Pakistani atrocities. And the Indian Cabinet met in a well-publicized but closed session to discuss recognition of Bangla Desh. 

Chous Cable: In response, Peking seemed more than willing to weigh in with a tough statement in support of the West Pakistanis. In the most specific declaration since the fighting broke out late last month, Premier Chou En-Iai sent a cable to Yahya blasting "Indian expansionists and adding that the Chinese would firmly back the Pakistanis "in their just struggle to safeguard their -state sovereignty and national independence. On top of that, there were rumors throughout Asia last week that the West Pakistanis only instituted the military crackdown after extensive consultations with Peking.

Yet for all the ominous signs of a brewing confrontation on the subcontinent, most analysts doubted that the rhetoric would escalate to action, at least not in the near future. For one thing, China's support for Islamabad-Peking's ally in its long-haul competition with India-seemed to have been something of a pro-forma necessity. For another, the Indians are currently more than preoccupied with their own domestic problems. Still, the volatile brinkmanship of Yahya Khan and the highly emotional Indian response carried with them the threat of a major explosion. "If the fighting and the bloodshed simmer on," said one observer, "then there's always the possibility that any tiny spark may send the entire region up in flames-eventually engulfing all of Pakistan, India and maybe even China as well."

Courtesy: Newsweek April 26, 1971; pp. 35-36


----------



## roadrunner

You seem destined to live in 1971 akzaman, even when experts from your own country admit that muktihi bahini committed a lot of the atrocities of '71, the Blood Telegram has been disproved by the author himself, and current thinking accepts that virtually all the articles you have posted are from a different era of one sided propaganda.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm
> 
> As you can see it is a recent conference that most reputed scholars accept (not the people with chips on their shoulders and vested interests).



Roadrunner,

Utter humbug.

It just gives the details of the agenda. 

Who are you impressing?

Could I request you not to think all other members of the forum are foolish or are chimps, which you indicated to be of your genre!

Forgive me for the comment, but I am here for serious discussion and acquiring knowledge and not for wasting my time to discuss with people who are a trifle frivolously hyperactive!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> You seem destined to live in 1971 akzaman, even when experts from your own country admit that muktihi bahini committed a lot of the atrocities of '71, the Blood Telegram has been disproved by the author himself, and current thinking accepts that virtually all the articles you have posted are from a different era of one sided propaganda.



I wonder if you could live beyond a time when your country is raped.

Propaganda is your forte. Others are mere greenhorns compared to you since you pass of anyth9ing as the Gospel truth!

See the above post as an example.


----------



## HK-47

I can understand the Pakistani point of view and they are right in a sense that the 1971 details have been used for political propaganda and other purposes.Exaggeration of the total dead probably occurred not the rapes.Lots of women(who survived the rapes) were carted off to European nations for rehabilitation.


----------



## roadrunner

HK-47 said:


> I can understand the Pakistani point of view and they are right in a sense that the 1971 details have been used for political propaganda and other purposes.Exaggeration of the total dead probably occurred not the rapes.Lots of women(who survived the rapes) *were carted off to European nations for rehabilitation*.



Wow  I guess the nonsense never stops. Why on earth would European countries take these women into rehab? Is the source for this the Bangladesh Observer by any chance? Or is it a case of the cynical "Mush-speak" in me talking?


----------



## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Roadrunner,
> 
> Utter humbug.
> 
> It just gives the details of the agenda.
> 
> Who are you impressing?
> 
> Could I request you not to think all other members of the forum are foolish or are chimps, which you indicated to be of your genre!
> 
> Forgive me for the comment, but I am here for serious discussion and acquiring knowledge and not for wasting my time to discuss with people who are a trifle frivolously hyperactive!



What more do you want besides the details of the conference? You want to know what was said during the conference. Alright, here's a sample to which all these people agreed 

*According to Professor Sarmila Bose of the George Washington University, In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan Army in the case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women. While this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this study, it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was made along with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or in some cases even in written form in Bengali literature. However, when Bengali eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also testified that no rape had taken place. Prof Bose was addressing a conference on the 1971 conflict arranged by the State Department to mark the release of declassified documents from that period.* 

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-6-2005_pg1_2 

Of course the 3 million some luns are trying to claim on here is admitted nonsense by all parties. 

*During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.

They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his countrys war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake.* 

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/07/nat3.htm 

I guess there goes your 35 year old bharati instigated myth


----------



## roadrunner

Salim said:


> I wonder if you could live beyond a time when your country is raped.
> 
> Propaganda is your forte. Others are mere greenhorns compared to you since you pass of anyth9ing as the Gospel truth!
> 
> See the above post as an example.



Pakistan has been raped many times in history, by outsiders and insiders. I'm not backing anything without strong credentials such as official meetings that lack the vested interests of people you quote as gospel like Simon Dring, the head of Dhaka TV in return for favours given during the war!


----------



## roadrunner

HK-47 said:


> any link about Blood's retraction?



His memoirs. 



> The Mukti bahini was formed gradually.They were always on the run,hiding as Pak forces were superior in numbers and strength.I personally believe that they never had much time strolling into a Bihari house and rape the women there with Pak forces everywhere in the country.



Utter trash..The Mukti Bahini were prepared well in advance of the war and made collusion plans with Bharat well in advance. Meetings took place at Dhaka University where weapons training were given to Muktihi Bahini henchman.


----------



## akzaman

*Pakistan plunges into Civil War*

The man and his party are enemies of Pakistan. This crime will not go unpunished. We will not allow some power-hungry and unpatriotic people to destroy the country play with the destiny of 120 million people.-President Mohammed Yahya Khan

Come Out of your home with whatever weapons you have.  Resist the enemy forces at any cost  until the last enemy soldier is vanquished, and save the country from the ruthless dictatorship of West Pakistanis. 
-Sheikh Mujibur Rahman

Until the very last moment, it looked as if the two proud men entrusted with Pakistan's destiny might still be able to avert a head-on clash. From the East Pakistani capital of Dacca came optimistic reports that President Mohammed Yahya Khan and Mujib-as the leader of secessionist-minded East Pakistan is known-were about to reach a compromise. But then, with stunning suddenness, the pieces of Pakistans complicated political puzzle flew apart. In the East Pakistani cities of Rangpur and Chittagong federal troops poured machine-gun fire into mobs of demonstrating Bengali nationalists. Swiftly, Yahya issued orders to his army to crush the movement and restore the full authority of the government. In his turn, Mujib proclaimed East Pakistan the sovereign, independent Peoples Republic of Bangla Desh [Bengal nation]. And with that, Pakistan was plunged into civil war.

Then, in the 24th year of Pakistan's existence, the bond that had held the eastern and western sectors of the country in tenuous union snapped. Because Pakistan's central government immediately imposed strict censorship on communications in and out of East Pakistan, early reports were sketchy. Still, even the fragmentary dispatches from neighboring India provided a dismal picture of bloody fighting that pitted a modern, professional army against rebels who were often armed with little more than passion and pitchforks. Hopelessly outgunned, the East Pakistani guerillas reportedly suffered thousands of casualties. But although by the end of the week it appeared that the federal army-Iargely composed of fierce Punjabis-had dealt its Bengali adversary a devastating blow, few people thought that the widely separated wings of Pakistan could ever be effectively reunited again.

What made the Pakistani upheaval so unexpected was that it occurred even as Yahya and Mujib were in the midst of private negotiations. On hearing the reports of "massacres" in Rangpur and Chittagong, an enraged Mujib accused the army of unleashing a reign of terror. Yahya's response was to quit the talks in a huff and leave Dacca unannounced to return to West Pakistan. Back in his home region, the President took to national radio to ban Mujib's Awami League, East Pakistan's dominant political organization. "Sheikh Mujib's action of stalling his non-cooperation movement is an act of treason," the President declared. 

Shortly after Yahya left Dacca, the army's tough martial-Iaw administrator, Lt. Geri. Tikka Khan, slapped tight censorship over East Pakistan- All foreign correspondents were restricted to their hotels and then, after federal troops seized their notes and film, the reporters were expelled from the country. Among the correspondents forced to leave was NEWSWEEK'S Loren Jenkins, who filed this report:

From our windows in Dacca's modern Intercontinental Hotel, we watched a jeepful of soldiers roll up to a shopping center and, taking aim with a heavy machine gun, open fire on a crowd. While the firing was still going on, some fifteen young Bengalis appeared in the street about 200 yards away and shouted defiantly at the soldiers. The youths seemed to be empty-handed, but the soldiers turned the machine gun on them anyway. Then, the federal soldiers moved down an adjacent alley leading to the office of a pro-Mujib daily newspaper that had strongly denounced the army. The troops shouted in Urdu-a language which few Bengalis understand-warning anyone inside to surrender or be shot. No one emerged. So they blasted the building and set it afire. And when they emerged, they waved their hands in triumph and shouted "Pakistan Zindabad" ( "Long Live Pakistan").

By late in the week, firing throughout the city was heavy and flashes of 105-mm. howitzers in the night preceded the heavy crump of incoming shells which seemed to be landing on the new campus of Dacca University. I woke up one morning to the sound of six Chinese-made T-54 light tanks clanging down Airport Road. A gray pall of smoke hung low over the muggy sky. Soon new artillery blasts were heard and new fires were seen in the region of Old Dacca, a warren of narrow, open-sewered streets where most of the capital's population lives in cramped one-room homes.

The West Pakistani troops in Dacca showed all the signs of having the jitters. Many shot off random bursts of automatic weapons fire at the slightest noise. And when some of the reporters in the Intercontinental Hotel ventured outside - and asked to tour the city, an army captain stationed in front of the hotel threatened to shoot us. Ordering us back inside, he shouted angrily: "If I can kill my own people, I can kill you." 

At the outset of the crackdown, the army ordered striking government workers either to return to work or face military trial, and imposed a 24-hour curfew. Meanwhile, a truckload of soldiers moved through the city, stopping in front of any house flying the new green, red and yellow banner of Bangla Desh. At every such building, the troops ordered the flag pulled down. In the area around our hotel, their first stop was a three-story brick house-where a woman in a sari slowly mounted to the roof and, under the menacing gaze of the soldiers, reluctantly lowered her flag.

With Jenkins and other foreign reporters expelled from East Pakistan, the world was left to the mercy of conflicting radio reports for its information. The official government radio in Karachi announced that the army had arrested Mujib. But a clandestine radio in Dacca identifying itself as the Voice of Independent Bangla Desh, proclaimed that Mujib was still safe in his underground headquarters. Under his leadership, said a rebel radio announced: "The people of Bangla Desh will shed more blood. .."

If Pakistan was disintegrating in division and violence, it had, in a sense, only moved full circle in its quarter-century history. For Pakistan emerged as a nation in 1947 out of divisions and strife. Propelled by Mohammed Ali Jinnah's driving vision of a Moslem homeland in South Asia, Pakistan was assembled from the predominantly Moslem areas of British India. But the partitioning of India touched off a six-month blood bath between Hindus and Moslems in which an estimated half million people perished. And it created a Pakistan with two distant wings separated by 1,100 miles of Indian territory.

This geographical handicap was serious enough. But to further complicate the matters, their shared devotion to Islam was virtually all that the two sectors of Pakistan have in common. West Pakistan is a land of deserts and mountains and a generally arid climate; the far more densely populated eastern wing is a humid land of jungles and alluvial plains. And the differences in racial personality between the Punjabis of West Pakistan and the Bengalis of the east are extreme (box below). A proud, martial people, the Punjabis look down upon the Bengalis and over the years have consistently exploited their countrymen in the east.

Clean Sweep: Ironically, President Yahya was the first West Pakistani leader to openly admit that East Pakistan never received its fair share of political power and economic resources in the Pakistani union. To rectify matters, Yahya provided Pakistan with its first national elections conducted strictlv on one-man, one-vote basis. But the resuIts of last December's voting turned out to be something of a shocker. In the east, Mujib's Awami League all but swept the boards clean. And because the more populous east had a larger allotment of seats in the National Assembly, Mujib's forces came up with a clear parliamentary majority as well.

During the campaign, Mujib proclaimed a six-point program aimed a diminishing the powers of Pakistan's central government while granting virtual autonomy to each province. Not surprisingly, it was a plan that the top vote-getting politician in West Pakistan, the mercurial, left-Ieaning ex-Foreign Minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, found totally unacceptable. When Bhutto's Supporters refused to take part in the new National Assembly, Yahya was forced to postpone its openjng. This, in turn, prompted Mujib to launch a civil-disobedience campaign which virtually destroyed federal authority in East Pakistan and made him the region's effective ruler. And in the end, that left Yahya no choice but to grant the Bengali demands or to resort to force.

In branding Mujib an outlaw, Yahya slammed shut the door to further negotiations and opted instead for a military solution to his dilemma. But although the federal force in East Pakistan (whose size is variously estimated at anywhere from 20,000 to 70,000 men) was far superior in training and equipment to its e!1emy, it faced some severe problems. Lacking direct land links between West and East Pakistan, and banned from flying over India, federal army commanders had to move their men the long way around the southern tip of India by way of Ceylon. "For the short term," said a U.S. analyst, "Pakistan's army should be able to tear out of the Bengali landscape. But for the long term, they have a terrible logistics problem."

Guerrilla Haven: Against the federal forces, the Bengalis could muster barely 15,000 troops, most of them militiamen armed with obsolete World War II weapons. But while the Bengalis were no match for the federal army in the cities, military observers noted that the surrounding countryside, where 90 per cent of East Pakistan's population lives, is a virtual haven for guerrilla warfare. A maze of sunken rice fields, tea plantations, jute fields and banana groves, it is ideal ambush country reminiscent of South Vietnam's Mekong Delta. As a result, most foreign military analysts believe that prolonged military occupation of the east would put an intolerable strain on the Pakistani Army.

Nonetheless, if Yahya chose to indulge in wholesale slaughter, it was probable that he could stamp out the rebellion in East Pakistan, at least for the time being. And if the reports of Mujib's capture proved true, that would surely be a severe blow to the cause of Bangla Desh. But no matter how harsh the federal crackdown, Bengali resistance-whether in the form of civil disobedience or a Viet Cong-style guerrilla struggle-appeared likely to continue. Yahya, in fact, was seemingly faced with the ugly prospect of being a colonial ruler in his own country. For when the federal army opened up with tanks and automatic weapons in Dacca last week, it mortally wounded any remaining chance that the two disparate wings of Pakistan could ever live in harmony again.

A People Apart: The Complex Bengalis

To anyone acquainted with the character of the Bengalis, it seemed almost inevitable that some day they would try to form their own independent nation. Despite their incorporation into India and Pakistan when the British raj left the subcontinent in 1947, some 120 million Bengalis (70 million of whom live in East Pakistan and most of the rest in India's West Bengal) still consider themselves a race apart from-and above-their neighbors. Emotional and talkative, the dark-skinned Bengalis have more in common with each other than with their co-religionists, Hindu or Moslem, or with their compatriots, Indian or Pakistani. Says one Western expert; "They consider themselves to be. 'Bengalis first, Moslems or Hindus second and Pakistanis or Indians a poor third."

Culturally, ethnically, linguistically and spiritually, the Bengalis are different from their countrymen in Pakistan and India. For one thing, as Bengali scholars will inform all who pause to listen, the name Bengal is derived from the ancient kingdom of Banga, which goes back at least to the third century B.C. One of the oldest literary streams in Asia also flows in Bengal, whose Indo-Aryan language and recorded history date back at least a thousand years, Boastful of this long literary heritage, intellectual Bengalis was most eloquent on the subject of Rabindranath Tagore, their greatest modern literary figure. In his combination of mysticism and lyricism, Tagore may have been the quintessential Bengali. Poet, novelist and dramatist, he was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature in 1913.

Talk: If the written language is one of Bengal's glories, the spoken one is one of its burdens. In the cafes of Calcutta and Dacca, Bengalis palaver endlessly, spinning out airy intellectual concepts and political schemes. An Indian joke goes like this: "Every committee must have four members: a Mukherjee, a Bannerjee, a Chatterjee (all Bengali names] and a Singh." Singh is a Sikh name. The Sikhs -unlike the Bengalis-are noted for their action, and the implication is that the lone Sikh is the fellow who will execute the program.

A people who have suffered hundreds of invasions and conquests, including that of the British in the eighteenth century the Bengalis long ago learned to cultivate the arts of accommodation. Unlike the proud Punjabi, his opponent in the current strife, the Bengali knew how to bow and scrape. Dressed in his dhoti, spouting flowery language, armed only with an umbrella, the Bengali was regarded by all as a reliable, efficient clerk. Fighting was best left to more martial people.

The other main cliche about the Bengalis portrays them as crafty fellows ready to outsmart you if given half a chance. "Watch it," a merchant might say. "He's a Bengali." The message is that the person in question is not only clever but possibly also capable of a little sharp practice.

And yet, despite their reputation as a guileful, docile people, the Bengalis have more than once demonstrated a dark, explosive side. The most ruthless, dedicated terrorists during the fighting against the British came from Bengal. And since partition, the Bengali regions of both India and Pakistan have been the scene of constant political turmoil and near revolution. "They may seem docile," says one American scholar. "But they are capable of violence when sparked the wrong way." And then, in words that may prove to be all too perceptive, he adds: "There is a side to the Bengali mentality that thrives on chaos."

Courtesy: Newsweek April 5, 1971; pp.31-34


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## HK-47

> Utter trash..The Mukti Bahini were prepared well in advance of the war and made collusion plans with Bharat well in advance. Meetings took place at Dhaka University where weapons training were given to Muktihi Bahini henchman


well whether prepared in advance or not they had very few opportunities for committing so many atrocities as you allege.
How many Biharis were there in East Pakistan anyways?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

RR,

Indeed, yes, very strong credentials you have.

I was reading an article on A laugh a minute! Surprising that chap also claimed he had solid credentials!



> I'm not backing anything without strong credentials such as official meetings that lack the vested interests of people you quote as gospel like Simon Dring, the head of Dhaka TV in return for favours given during the war!



Yes, official meeting is true. Displaying the agenda does not indicate what they said.

The logic of displaying an agenda and the list of speakers and making claims of what they would have said is a fabrication, if nothing else!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

On how and why the British brought in the concept of martial races and non martial races and the skulduggery involved, one should read "A Matter of Honour' by Philip Mason.

Bengalis are not men of action as per the Newsweek article. Good.

How is it that a non martial Bengali Mujib and non martial Bengalis of East Pakistan and the Mukti Bahini not only took on the 'martial races' and a whole country with all the power to destroy Mujib and his Bengali followers, including good old Nixon and his armada that was steaming in, still win hands down?


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> RR,
> 
> Indeed, yes, very strong credentials you have.
> 
> I was reading an article on A laugh a minute! Surprising that chap also claimed he had solid credentials!



The credentials of the people I quoted were Professors from America, Bangladesh, Bengal and an OBE. The people you quote are such greats as Simon Dring, the ex chief of Dhakka TV presented to him for his one sided services during the war of independence!! 



> Yes, official meeting is true. Displaying the agenda does not indicate what they said.
> 
> The logic of displaying an agenda and the list of speakers and making claims of what they would have said is a fabrication, if nothing else!



Not sure what you're saying here. Someone with an agenda would be more like an independent such as Simon Dring, his agenda being that in return for his reporting during the war in favour of the Muktihi Bahini, he would get a job as chief of Dhaka TV. What agenda does Bose have, or all the Bangladeshi experts on the war who admitted it was all propaganda. Are you saying there's a massive conspiracy amongst all the Bengali scholars with OBE's and professorships against poor old Bharat and in favour of Pakistan, now there's one to rival the Jewish conspiracy you're always harping on about


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> On how and why the British brought in the concept of martial races and non martial races and the skulduggery involved, one should read "A Matter of Honour' by Philip Mason.
> 
> Bengalis are not men of action as per the Newsweek article. Good.
> 
> How is it that a non martial Bengali Mujib and non martial Bengalis of East Pakistan and the Mukti Bahini not only took on the 'martial races' and a whole country with all the power to destroy Mujib and his Bengali followers, including good old Nixon and his armada that was steaming in, still win hands down?



Dude, this wasn't about fighting ability, this was about initially brainwashing and docility, and later on it came down to numbers. The hostile East Pakistani population was controllable for the PA without much of its Army armaments, the invading Bharatis simply provided extra numbers to overwhelm an ill equipped PA. PA were outnumbered probably around 20:1, that is why there was no point in fighting the onslaught. 

Even though the martial race theory was a theory, it did have some evidence. The Bengalis generally werent willing to fight in PA. When Ayub Khan tried increasing recruitment of East Paks, noone attended the training colleges that were built there and they had to close them again.


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## roadrunner

HK-47 said:


> well whether prepared in advance or not they had very few opportunities for committing so many atrocities as you allege.
> How many Biharis were there in East Pakistan anyways?



They had plenty of oppotunities to commit the atrocities. PA did not get to East Pakistan until well after the first waves of Bihari massacres. There's plenty of evidence for it.


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## akzaman

*Pakistan: Reign of Terror*

Blealy-eyed from lack of sleep and emotionally drained by what they called their "ten days of terror," hundreds of Americans who had been trapped in war-ravaged East Pakistan finally got out to safety last week. Nearly 500 of them were evacuated by air from the East Pakistani capital of Dacca. Another 119 foreign nationals, including 37 Americans, were brought out by a British freighter from the battered East Pakistani port city of Chittagong. Most of them begged off from interviews, fearful that anything they said might endanger some 200 Americans-consular officials, businessmen and missionaries-who chose to remain behind in East Pakistan. But a few, unable to contain their outrage at the wanton slaughter they had witnessed, talked guardedly to newsmen. And their harrowing accounts tended to confirm earlier reports of savage repressions by the Punjabi-Ied Pakistani Army in its attempt to stamp out the Bengali rebellion in East Pakistan.

The Americans evacuated from Chittagong told NEWSWEEK'S Tony Clifton that the bitter fighting there had reduced East Pakistan's largest port to a ghost town. "In the first few days," recalled Neil O'Toole, a New Yorker working for a private charitable organization, "I actually saw Awami League people [supporters of Bengali nationalist leader Sheikh Mujibur Rahman] patrolling the streets with bows and arrows, and I wondered how they could possibly hold off the army with things like that. Four days later, the reinforced Pakistani Army gained full control of the city and launched a reign of terror. "Some Punjabi soldiers called a kid over and hit him around the head and in the groin and then forced him to his knees," said Fritz Blankenship, a crane operator who had been employed by an American construction firm. The kid was crying, begging and the soldiers just watched him for a minute. Finally, according to Blankenship, they just shot him out of hand and walked on.

A similar wave of atrocities was reported by the Americans who had been in Dacca. As soon as the curfew was lifted, they said, at least a half-dozen Americans were met by nearly hysterical Bengali friends who told of a massacre at Dacca University. When three young Americans agreed to investigate the story, they found a staircase in a faculty building splattered with the bloodshed when five teachers were dragged out and coldly mowed down by gunfire. Still more shattering was the experience of Victor Chen, who had been visiting Dacca as a tourist when the war broke out and was led by a group of excited Bengalis to a shantytown set in the middle of Daccas sprawling racetrack. The houses were burned down, and some were still smoldering, he told NEWSWEEK'S Milan J. Kubic. "Literally dozens of dead bodies were strewn all over the place, many of them small kids, all of them riddled by bullets. And another young American said in obvious disgust: "We just dont see why the U.S. should go on supporting a regime that behaves in this fashion.


Cautious: Indeed, Washingtons policy of calculated ambiguity on Pakistan has left the U.S. open to charges that official silence is tantamount to support for the martial-Iaw regime of President Mohammed Yahya Khan. Even touchier was the charge that U .S.-supplied Patton and Sabre jets were being used Pakistani Army to slaughter Bengalis. But State Department officials argued that the unsettled circumstances dictated a cautious policy. They also pointed out that no American weapons have been Delivered to the Pakistani Army since 1965. And last week, the departments spokesman, Charles Bray 3rd, expressed "sympathy" to the "victims" and hoped that "it will be possible soon to alleviate the suffering caused by recent events" in East Pakistan. Though U .S. officials denied any implications beyond humanitarian concern, Bray's use of the word "victims..struck some Pakistani Government officials as a slap at the Yahya Khan regime, which has never conceded that there was much suffering going on in East Pakistan.

Washington, of course, was hardly alone in this dilemma. Both the Soviet Union and Communist China, the principal purveyors of arms to Pakistan since 1965, have only begun to choose their rhetorical stance-with Moscow urging Yahya to find a way to end the fighting and Peking edging toward Yahya's side. But by far the most difficult position was that facing the government of India, where popular sentiments remained overwhelmingly pro-Bengali and where pressures mounted for direct action. "It is neither proper nor possible for India to keep quiet [over the Pakistani situation)," said Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.

The watch-and-wait policy assumed by most foreign governments stemmed from a widely held belief that the Pakistani Army will ultimately fail in its attempt to subjugate 75 million East Pakistanis. Still, fears increased that the army was fully prepared to wreak bloody havoc even in a futile try. An American businessman who was evacuated from Dacca last week recalled asking a Punjabi major why the army was killing so many people. "There are millions of them, and only thousands of us," the major replied. "The only way we can control these people is by making them scared stiff." And from what he saw, the American said, "it looked as if the army went berserk. I can't help feeling sorry about the poor Bengalis in that hell."

Newsweek April 19, 1971; p. 52-54


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## roadrunner

These are all US consular officials my brainwashed cut & pasting friend. Archer Blood said much the same as them back in '71, and 30 years later said that actually he made a mistake. There was no genocide, and if there was, it was partly perpetrated by East Pakistanis/Bangladeshis. The evidence of East Pakistani/Bangladeshi massacres of West Pakistanis/Biharis is overwhelming. No out of date one sided reports by friends of someone that hallucinated a genocide was taking place on the basis of what Bharati officials were telling him is going to change that


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## alamgir

The truth about the Jessore massacre 
The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasnt committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose 

BITTER TRUTH: Civilians massacred in Jessore in 1971 ? but by whom? 

RECOGNITION DENIED: Father and son killed in Dhaka in 1971 
The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies. 

The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore. It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war. 

It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites. 

Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city. 

The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre. 

And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them? 

It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasnt committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists. 

It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistans military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladeshs independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed. 

Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or Biharis, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India. 

As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial. The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore. East Pakistani sources said, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo. 

In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal, The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib, wrote Tomalin, we saw another 40 Punjabi spies being taken towards the killing ground? 

Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the mid-day murder of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali irregulars were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment. 

Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the governments control. Like many other places, local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians. 

Tomalin records the local Bengalis claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore. 

There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brothers bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a mans body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet. 

Amar Surs anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a shaheed, but their home was declared vested property by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government. 

In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and sons dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army. Foreigners might just have mistaken the lungi worn by Sur for a saree, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a lungi when they see one! And why present the same body twice? 

The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post bought that story too. The medias reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times. 

As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.




www.telegraphindia.com


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## alamgir

Excerpts from "Blood and Tears"
Book by Qutubuddin Aziz 
read book reviews | buy books 

Looking at the tragic events of March 1971 in retrospect, I must confess that even I, although my press service commanded a sizeable network of district correspondents in the interior of East Pakistan, was not fully aware of the scale, ferocity and dimension of the province-wide massacre of the non-Banglis.

I must stress, with all the force and sincerity at my command, that this bock is not intended to be a racist indictment of the Bengalis as a nation. In writing and publishing this book, I am not motivated by any revanchist obsession or a wish to condemn my erstwhile Bengali compatriots as a nation. Just as it is stupid to condemn the great German people for the sins of the Nazis, it would be foolish to blame the Bengali people as a whole for the dark deeds of the Awami League militants and their accomplices.

I have incorporated in this book the acts of heroism and courage of those brave and patriotic Bengalis who sheltered and protected, at great peril to themselves, their terror-stricken non-Bengali friends and neighbours. On the basis of the heaps of eye-witness accounts, which I have carefully read, sifted and analysed, I do make bold to say that the vast majority of Bengalis disapproved of and was not a party to the barbaric atrocities inflicted on the hapless non-Bengalis by the Awami League's terror machine and the Frankensteins and vampires it unloosed. This silent majority, it seemed, was awed, immobilised and neutralised by the terrifying power, weapons and ruthlessness of a misguided minority hell-bent on accomplishing the secession of East Pakistan.

The sheaves of eye-witness accounts, documented in this book, prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the massacre of West Pakistanis, Biharis and other non-Bengalis in East Pakistan had begun long before the Pakistan Army took punitive action against the rebels late in the night of March 25, 1971. It is also crystal clear that the Awami League's terror machine was the initiator and executor of the genocide against the non-Bengalis which exterminated at least half a million of them in less than two months of horror and trauma. Many witnesses have opined that the federal Government acted a bit too late against the insurgents. The initial success of the federal military action is proved by the fact that in barely 30 days, the Pakistan Army, with a combat strength of 38,717 officers and men in East Pakistan, had squelched the Awami League's March-April, 1971, rebellion all over the province.


Typical of the open-air, human abattoirs operated by the Awami League-led rebels in East Pakistan in 1971 is this photograph of multiple-executions done by a Mukti-Bahini killer squad in Dacca Race Course. The pro-Pakistan Bengali and non-Bengali victims were tortured before being slain 
The hundreds of eye-witnesses from towns and cities of East Pakistan, whose testimonies are documented in this book, are unanimous in reporting that the slaughter of West Pakistanis, Biharis, and other non-Bangalis and of some pro-Pakistan Bengalis had begun in the early days of the murderous month of March 1971.

Looking at the tragic events of March 1971 in retrospect, I must confess that even I, although my press service commanded a sizeable network of district correspondents in the interior of East Pakistan, was not fully aware of the scale, ferocity and dimension of the province-wide massacre of the non-Banglis. 


I must stress, with all the force and sincerity at my command, that this bock is not intended to be a racist indictment of the Bengalis as a nation. In writing and publishing this book, I am not motivated by any revanchist obsession or a wish to condemn my erstwhile Bengali compatriots as a nation. Just as it is stupid to condemn the great German people for the sins of the Nazis, it would be foolish to blame the Bengali people as a whole for the dark deeds of the Awami League militants and their accomplices.

I have incorporated in this book the acts of heroism and courage of those brave and patriotic Bengalis who sheltered and protected, at great peril to themselves, their terror-stricken non-Bengali friends and neighbours. On the basis of the heaps of eye-witness accounts, which I have carefully read, sifted and analysed, I do make bold to say that the vast majority of Bengalis disapproved of and was not a party to the barbaric atrocities inflicted on the hapless non-Bengalis by the Awami League's terror machine and the Frankensteins and vampires it unloosed. This silent majority, it seemed, was awed, immobilised and neutralised by the terrifying power, weapons and ruthlessness of a misguided minority hell-bent on accomplishing the secession of East Pakistan.

The 170 eye-witnesses, whose testimonies or interviews are contained in this book in abridged form have been chosen from a universe of more than 5,000 repatriated non-Bengali families. I had identified, after some considerable research, 55 towns and cities in East Pakistan where the abridgement of the non-Bengali population in March and early April 1971 was conspicuously heavy. The collection and compilation of these eye-witness accounts was started in January 1974 and completed in twelve weeks. A team of four reporters, commissioned for interviewing the witnesses from all these 55 towns and cities of East Pakistan, worked with intense devotion to secure their testimony. Many of the interviews were prolonged because the Witnesses broke down in a flurry of sobs and tears as they related the agonising stories of their wrecked lives. I had issued in February 1974 an appeal in the newspapers for such eye-witness accounts, and I am grateful to the many hundreds of witnesses who promptly responded to my call. 
A scene of Mukti Bahini mass murder of Biharis in Dacca on December 18, 1971. A rebel soldier lifts his boot to strike a bleeding bayoneted boy who showed signs of life. Dead bodies of other slain non-Bengalis lie in the foreground. 
I am the lone survivor of a group of ten Pathans who were employed as Security Guards by the Delta Construction Company in the Mohakhali locality in Dacca; all the others were slaughtered by the Bengali rebels in the night of March 25, 1971, said 40-year-old Bacha Khan.

I heard the screams of an Urdu-speaking girl who was being ravished by her Bengali captors but I was so scared that I did not have the courage to emerge from hiding said a 24-year-old Zahid Abdi, who was employed in a trading firm in Dacca. He escaped the slaughter of the non-Bengalis in the crowded New Market locality of Dacca on March 23, 1971 and was sheltered by a God-fearing Bengali in his shop. The killers raped their non-Bengali teenage victim at the back of the shop and later on slayed her. 

top 

My only daughter has been insane since she was forced by her savage tormentors to watch the brutal murder of her husband, said Mukhtar Ahmed Khan, 43, while giving an account of his suffering during the Ides of March 1971 in Dacca.In the third week of March 1971, a gang of armed Bengali rebels raided house of my son-in-law and overpowered him. He was a courageous Youngman and he resisted the attackers. My daughter also resisted the attackers but they were far too many and they were well armed. They tied up my son-in-law and my daughter with ropes and they forced her to watch as they slit the throat of her husband and ripped his stomach open in the style of butchers. She fainted and lost consciousness. Since that dreadful day she has been mentally ill."

Shamim Akhtar, 28, whose husband was employed as a clerk in the Railway office in Dacca, lived in a small house in the Mirpur locality there.

She described her tragedy in these words:

On December 17, 1971, the Mukti Bahini cut off the water supply to our homes. We used to get water from a nearby pond; it was polluted and had a bad odour. I was nine months pregnant. On December 23, 1971, I gave birth to a baby girl. No midwife was available and my husband helped me at child birth. Late at night, a gang of armed Bengalis raided our house, grabbed my husband and trucked him away. I begged them in the name of God to spare him as I could not even walk and my children were too small. The killers were heartless and I learnt that they murdered my husband. After five days, they returned and ordered me and my children to vacate the house as they claimed that it was now their property. 

Zaibunnissa Haq, 30, whose journalist husband, Izhar-ul-Haque, worked as a columnist in the Daily Watan in Dacca, gave this account of her travail in 1971:

A copy of the ads and the forms used for soliciting testimony from the victims. 
.On December 21, a posse of Mukti Bahini soldiers and some thugs rode into our locality with blazing guns and ordered us to leave our house as, according to them, no Bihari could own a house in Bangladesh. For two days, we lived on bare earth in an open space and we had nothing to eat. Subsequently, we were taken to a Relief Camp by the Red Cross.

In Pubail and Tangibari, the Awami League militants and their rebel confederates murdered dozens of affluent Biharis. Shops owned by the Biharis were favourite target of attack. 


Four armed thugs dragged two captive non-Bengali teenage girls into an empty bus and violated their chastity before gunning them to death, said Gulzar Hussain, 38, who witnessed the massacre of 22 non-Bengali men, women and children on March 21, 1971, close to a bus stand in Narayangang. Repatriated to Karachi in November 1973, Gulzar Hussain reported: ".On March 21, our Dacca-bound bus was stopped on the way, soon after it left the heart of the city. I was seated in the front portion of the bus and I saw that the killer gang had guns, scythes and daggers. The gunmen raised 'Joi Bangla' and anti-Pakistan slogans. The bus driver obeyed their signal to stop and the thugs motioned to the passengers to get down. A jingo barked out the order that Bengalis and non-Bengalis should fall into separate lines. As I spoke Bengali with a perfect Dacca accent and could easily pass for a Bengali, I joined the Bengali group of passengers. The killer gang asked us to utter a few sentences in Bengali which we did. I passed the test and our tormentors instructed the Bengalis to scatter. The thugs then gunned all the male non-Bengalis. It was a horrible scene. Four of the gunmen took for their loot two young non-Bengali women and raped them inside the empty bus. After they had ravished the girls, the killers shot them and half a dozen other women and children. 

She described her tragedy in these words:


As the victim did not die in a single bayonet strike, another Mukti-Bahini killer plunged his bayonet in to the writhing Biharis chest. Dead bodies of Bihari and Bengali victims lie strewn over the execution ground as Mukti-Bahini killers and their accomplices watch the butchery with sadist pleasure. 
On December 17, 1971, the Mukti Bahini cut off the water supply to our homes. We used to get water from a nearby pond; it was polluted and had a bad odour. I was nine months pregnant. On December 23, 1971, I gave birth to a baby girl. No midwife was available and my husband helped me at child birth. Late at night, a gang of armed Bengalis raided our house, grabbed my husband and trucked him away. I begged them in the name of God to spare him as I could not even walk and my children were too small. The killers were heartless and I learnt that they murdered my husband. After five days, they returned and ordered me and my children to vacate the house as they claimed that it was now their property.



top 

Zaibunnissa Haq, 30, whose journalist husband, Izhar-ul-Haque, worked as a columnist in the Daily Watan in Dacca, gave this account of her travail in 1971: .On December 21, a posse of Mukti Bahini soldiers and some thugs rode into our locality with blazing guns and ordered us to leave our house as, according to them, no Bihari could own a house in Bangladesh. For two days, we lived on bare earth in an open space and we had nothing to eat. Subsequently, we were taken to a Relief Camp by the Red Cross.

Nasima Khatoon, 25, lived in a rented house in the Pancho Boti locality in Narayanganj. Her husband, Mohammad Qamrul Hasan, was employed in a Vegetable Oil manufacturing factory. Repatriated to Karachi in January 1974, along with her 4-year-old orphaned daughter, from a Red Cross Camp in Dacca, Nasima gave this hair-raising account of her travail in 1971:

A Bihari victim grabbed by Mukti-Bahini killers, begging for mercy. 


At gun point, our captors made us leave our house and marched us to an open square where more than 500 non Bengali old men, women and children were detained. Some 50 Bengali gunmen led us through swampy ground towards a deserted school building. On the way, the 3-year-old child of a hapless captive woman died in her arms. She asked her captors to allow her to dig a small grave and bury the child. The tough man in the lead snorted a sharp NO, snatched the body of the dead child from her wailing mother and tossed it into the river

The Awami League's rebellion of March 1971 took the heaviest toll of non-Bengali lives in the populous port city of Chittagong. Although the Government of Pakistan's White Paper of August 1971 on the East Pakistan crisis estimated the non-Bengali death toll in Chittagong and its neighbouring townships during the Awami League's insurrection to be a little under 15,000, the testimony of hundreds of eye-witnesses interviewed for this book gives the impression that more than 50,000 non-Bengalis perished in the March 1971 carnage. Thousands of dead bodies were flung into the Karnaphuli river and the Bay of Bengal. 

Savage killings also took place in the Halishahar, Kalurghat and Pahartali localities where the Bengali rebel soldiers poured petrol and kerosine oil around entire blocks, igniting them with flame-throwers and petrol-soaked jute balls, then mowed down the non-Bengali innocents trying to escape the cordons of fire. In the wanton slaughter in the last week of March and early April, 1971, some 40,000 non-Bengalis perished in Chittagong and its neighbourhood. The exact death toll, which could possibly be much more will never be known because of the practice of burning dead bodies or dumping them in the river and the sea.


The uniformed killer puffing the cigarette to singe the eyes of the terrified prey. Eye gouging and burning the skin of victims was a favourite torture method of the rebels. 


top 



http://www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net | http://www.strandedpakistani.org


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## HK-47

Awami League militants?do you refer to the Mujib bahini?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

> What agenda does Bose have,



The same agenda that Salman Ruyshdie had.

Get "famous" quick!

As far as the agenda you have produced, does it contain what was said?

Therefore, it is like a flyer for a movie without a movie being shown. And you saying the movie is contained in the flyer!

Unless you are being obtuse, it is simple to understand. I won't say even Chimps understand that too!


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> The same agenda that Salman Ruyshdie had.
> 
> Get "famous" quick!
> 
> As far as the agenda you have produced, does it contain what was said?
> 
> Therefore, it is like a flyer for a movie without a movie being shown. And you saying the movie is contained in the flyer!
> 
> Unless you are being obtuse, it is simple to understand. I won't say even Chimps understand that too!



Actually, Bose was already famous as being related to Subhash Bose. She even has a related part in a recent film about Bose. So she would have been famous with or without this research.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

So, you feel being related is something that gives one fame?

So you are an advocate of the pickaback concept?

Great!

I am related to Jesus Christ!

Krishna Bose is also related to Subash Chandra Bose. Heard of her?

Do you know the relatives of Bahadur Shah Zaffer, the last Mogul Emperor of India?

Your logic astounds!


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## Adux

Salim said:


> Do you know the relatives of Bahadur Shah Zaffer, the last Mogul Emperor of India?
> 
> Your logic astounds!



Sir, You are not the only one. 

When it comes to the families of Gandhi and Bahadur Shah Zaffer, the situation they are going through as per news reports, are quite saddening,


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## akzaman

*The Agony of East Pakistan:*

David Reed and John E. Frazer

Invaded and devastated by the army of its own government, this tortured land cries out for relief and for justice. If both are not granted} still greater horrors may lie ahead

They come out of East Pakistan in endless columns, along trails stained with tears and blood. They are dressed in rags, robbed of everything they owned, the women raped, the children gaunt from hunger. They have been on the move for up to a month, hiding from Pakistan soldiers by day, slogging through flooded rice paddies at night. A vengeful army pursues them to the very border of India. Rifle and machine-gun fire crackles. The bedraggled columns scatter for cover. But soon they are moving again, streaming into India.

Sobbing violently, a middle-aged man says, "The soldiers took my two nephews. They kicked them with their boots, ducked them in an open sewer, then machine-gunned them. After that they took 50 to 60 young men of our village into a field and killed them with bayonets." A woman who was shot in the leg clutches her daughter and says, "We were just about to cross the border when they started shooting at us. I don't know what happened to my husband." A ten-year-old boy, who lost an eye when an army patrol threw a grenade at him as he was tending cattle in a field, says, "Can anyone tell me what happened to my parents?"

Since late last March, when the Pakistan army launched this genocidal attack on the defenseless population of East Pakistan, more than eight million people have been driven from their native land. Millions more will surely follow. Moreover, the refugees have put grave strains on India, pushing India and West Pakistan to the brink of a war that could involve the two arch rivals of the communist world, the Soviet Union and China.

Return to Normal? While the horrors of the refugees are bad enough, something even more ghastIy is going on inside East Pakistan, also known as East Bengal. That land, scene of a devastating cyclone that claimed half a million lives last year,* is now being systematically ravaged by the Pakistan army. Diplomats and other foreigners in Dacca, East Pakistan's capital, estimate that between a quarter- and a half-million civilians have been slaughtered since March. An American missionary in Dacca grits his teeth and says, "It's murder-mass murder."

The military junta that rules Pakistan has tried to cover up the atrocities, and maintains that East Bengal has largely returned to normal. But one of the authors of this article, who spent two weeks there last August, found evidence to the contrary on every hand. Touring three districts of East Bengal by car, he found not a single village or town that had not suffered at the hands of the troops. Many towns were half-empty, homes and shops looted' and bummed, peopIe either dead, driven into exile or hiding in the countryside.

Perhaps a third of Dacca's population is gone; its economy is crippled and its people are so terrified that no one ventures outdoors at night. Not far from Dacca, a missionary said, "The soldiers killed 249 people in our village. Fortunately for the wounded, high-powered bullets right through them, so the doctors didn't have to probe."

A farmer in a refugee camp along the Indian side of the border (?): "The headmaster of our school sitting on the veranda of his home, grading examination papers, when the soldiers dragged him out on the road and cut his throat." Told (?) another refugee, "The soldiers found the doctor in our village to dig his own grave; then they shot him. The doctor in a border hospital pointed to a woman who had been raped repeatedly by the troops in the presence of her four children after the soldier had killed her husband.

Rule by Minority. The roo(?) disaster in Pakistan reach back (? Britain's withdrawal from its Indian empire in 1947. Because India's Muslim minority feared domination of the Hindu majority, a new IsIamic state called Pakistan was carved out of predominantly Muslim areas of Indian subcontinent. Muslims in the northwest became West Pakistan. Although East Bengal separated from West Pakistan by more than 1000 miles of Indian territory, it was included in the state, as East Pakistan, because people were mostly Muslims, there are profound differences between the two Pakistans. They have different languages. The people of the west, mostly Punjabis, are tall, light-skinned. Their land is (?) arid. East Pakistan, by contrast in tropical, peopled mostly by Bengalis, a small, dark-skinned people.

The Bengalis have long complained bitterly that the Punjabis in the west have treated them as colonial subjects. East Pakistan's population before the massacres stood at 70 million, as compared with 58 million in the west, but the capital, Islamabad, is in West Pakistan. East Pakistan has accounted for 50 percent or more of Pakistan's export earnings, chiefly from the production of jute, but the Bengalis claim that the west kept most of the money for its own development. West Pakistanis, moreover, took 80 percent of the jobs in the civil service, 90 percent of the posts in the armed forces.

Although efforts were made in the post-I947 years, democratic institutions never really took root in Pakistan, and in 1958 the military seized power .Then, last year, in a notable effort to return the country to civilian rule, Pakistan's president, Gen. Yahya Khan, scheduled an election for December. Voters would select a national assembly that would frame a constitution and then assume the role of a parliament. That election set in motion the train of events leading to the present tragedy.

In the election campaign in East Pakistan, the Bengalis were electrified by the message of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, a 51-year-old political moderate who was leader of the Awami, or People's League. Mujib, as he was popularly known, had spent nearly ten years as a political prisoner of the West Pakistan authorities. Now he campaigned on a program of autonomy for East Bengal which, he told cheering crowds, would shake off the hated domination of Islamabad. The central government could continue to control foreign affairs and defense for all Pakistan, but East Pakistan would govern itself internally and the bulk of its money as it saw fit.

Mujib's People's League won a landslide victory, capturing a clear majority in the 313-seat assembly. It not only would play the key role in the drafting of the constitution, but would form the next government for all of Pakistan. Elation swept East Pakistan. Neighboring India rejoiced, too. Mujib was known to be friendly to India. If he took over as Prime Minister of all Pakistan, relations with India would, it was hoped, improve.

"Bomber of Baluchistan." But on March 1, Yahya, under mounting pressure from politicians in West Pakistan, postponed the opening of the national assembly, which had been set for two days later. The Bengalis, feeling that they were being robbed of their legitimate victory, exploded in riots and demonstrations. Mujib calmed his people, cautioned them against violence; and though he still held out for autonomy, something like a parallel government now existed. On March 23-Pakistan's Independence Day-Mujib flew a new flag, the green, red and yellow banner of Bangla Desh (the Bengal nation) from his home. The West Pakistanis feared that the East was about to secede, and warned that no government could tolerate such a move.

At this point, a cold-eyed general named Tikka Khan arrived in Dacca to take command of West Pakistan troops stationed there. Tikka had won for himself the nick name "Bomber of Baluchistan" for having suppressed a tribal revolt in Baluchistan province by indiscriminate air and artillery strikes against civilians. Shortly after Tikka's arrival, Yahya flew to Dacca for talks with Mujib. All the while, West Pakistan soldiers in civilian clothing were being flown into Dacca. On the afternoon of March 25, Yahya, having broken off the talks with Mujib, returned to West Pakistan. At II o'clock that evening, Tikka Khan was unleashed.

Suddenly, all of Dacca rocked with explosions. Troops opened fire with artillery on the city; tanks rumbled through the streets, gunning down anything that moved. The dormitories of the university, a stronghold of Bengali nationalism, were riddled by machine-gun fire. The invading soldiers went on a rampage in the old city, a particular political stronghold of Mujib, breaking down doors, dragging people into the street and shooting them. Shops were looted and burned. The barracks of the pro-Mujib Bengali police were gutted by tank cannon Troops burst into a telephone exchange and killed 40 persons on duty.

Special West Pakistan army squads had lists of people-professors, doctors, businessmen and other community leaders-whom they dragged off to army headquarters. Most have never been seen again. Although Mujib's follower urged him to go into hiding, Mujib refused. Tikka's troops took him off to imprisonment and an uncertain fate in West Pakistan.

With Dacca in ruins, Tikka sent his troops into the countryside, in each town the ghastly pattern was repeated. Anyone associated with the People's League was killed. Young men, Muslim and Hindu alike, were rounded up and murdered. In almost every town, refugees report, women were raped.

The Bengalis Strike Back. Meanwhile, from Islamabad, Yahya whipped off decrees banning the People's League and postponing the national assembly indefinitely. The new constitution, he declared, would be drafted not by the assembly, but rather by a committee that would handpicked by him. Autonomy for East Bengal was rejected; Islamabad's rule would continue.

Yahya also imposed strict censor ship on the press: even today the people of West Pakistan have little idea of what is going on in the East. Tikka Khan was appointed governor of East Pakistan, which he ruled with the grace of a Nazi gauleiter in Occupied Europe until he was replaced in August.

Bangla Desh, however, has not been crushed. Surviving Bengali troops and police have formed the nucleus of the Mukti Bahini, or Liberation Army. There is no dearth of volunteers, and it is an open secret that India, which surrounds East Pakistan on three sides, is giving arms, training and encouragement to the Mukti Bahini guerrillas. Operating all along the 1350-mile border, these irregulars stab deeply into East Pakistan. Bombs explode nightly in the capital, and West Pakistan army and patrols are ambushed on country roads. The railway that links Chittagong, the main port, with Dacca has been severed.

Bangla Desh is paying a fearsome price for resistance. After each Mukti Bahini raid, the West Pakistan army, now bolstered to around 70,000 men, levels surrounding villages as "collective punishment." And each retaliation sets off another column of refugees for India.

The Indian government is making every effort to care for these piteous people, but the influx is so staggering that new miseries await them there. For instance, in one of more than a thousand squalid refugee camps in India, 150,000 people live in straw hovels surrounded by mud and *****. There are few latrines, and the stench is such that people cover their faces with cloth. Because of the vast numbers, refugees have to wait in line for as long as ten hours for their food rations  ¾ pound of rice a day per adult, plus some lentils, vegetables when available, and a little salt and cooking oil.

The children suffer the most. Many are beginning to look like the starving children of Biafra, their ribs protruding, their stomachs distended. Almost all suffer from malnutrition or dysentery. Life-giving milk and other protein foods are available in some of the camps, but the crush is so great that many children never get any. A doctor at a border hospital says, "The children die so quickly that we don't have time to treat them."

Anger in India. India, itself one of the poorest and most overcrowded countries on earth, groans - under the burden. Although she has made some important gains in population control in the past six years, her population has now increased enormously. The United States and other foreign governments have responded generously with cash and food (America has given $40 million in food, $30.5 million in cash); yet the cost of supporting the Pakistanis may run to more than a billion dollars a year-nearly a seventh of the annual budget of Indias central government. India cannot give the refugees jobs, because millions of her own people are unemployed. Even the meager rations of the refugees, which cost 13 cents a day, are a point of friction: some 50 million Indians subsist on substantially less.

Many Indians angrily point out that they are being forced to pick up the bill for Pakistan's atrocities against its own people. Some are urging that India take East Pakistan by military force so as to enable the refugees to return. India's Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi, so far has resisted these pressures-yet danger of war runs high. Such a war might well assume beyond-the-borders proportions. India has a new alliance with the Soviet Union; the Pakistan government has grown increasingly close to China. 

Within East Bengal itself, a new horror looms: an acute threat of mass starvation, Even in normal times, the area must import part of its rice supply. Now it will be difficult, if not impossible, to move the rice from the small river ports to all of the outlying areas. In 1943, two to three million Bengalis died in a famine. There is every reason to fear it will be worse this time.

What can be done about this festering disaster ? Many Bengalis see a solution in independence won by guerrilla warfare. There is a chance of success, but also the certainty of much more bloodshed. It would be far better for the United States and other nations to bring pressure to bear on Islamabad to work out a political solution acceptable to the Bengalis and thus to defuse the present explosive situation and stave off a major war in the subcontinent. This done, the refugee columns would be set in motion once more-on a peaceful journey back to their homeland.

Readers Digest, November 1971; pp.66-71


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Why post all this?

What will Roadrunner understand?

He wishes to run away from history that has been recorded the world over and his only straw that a drowning man clutches is the relative of Netaji Subash Bose - a failed assistant editor of a Bengali newspaper of Calcutta sensationalising to be recognised!

He doesn't even give credence to his President's statement in the book he wrote!

He believes Bose to Musharraf!

Could be because Musharraf liked a Bengali girl when he was commissioned!


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## alamgir

The Great Tragedy!!! 
Friday December 15, 2006 (1705 PST)

16 December 1971 is remembered by most Pakistanis as the fateful day when Pakistan was dismembered by the enemy machination. East Pakistan changed its name overnight to become Bangladesh 


This was a tragic day for all Pakistanis alike however for those Urdu speaking Pakistanis or non-Bengalis (also erroneously termed as Biharis) left behind in Bangladesh by the surrendering Pakistan Army, this became the mother of all tragedies. Even before the surrender, tragedy had already stricken them when immediately after the infamous Army Action of March 1971, the local Bengali populace, upon planned instigation & insinuation by the Awami League anti-Pakistan elements, had vented out their anger by running a revenge killing campaign of these unarmed defenseless people. Countless of them were ruthlessly murdered and dumped in mass graves throughout the former East Pakistan. These were in no terms less than a holocaust of the Nazis . All these ghastly crimes against these innocent un-armed Urdu speaking Pakistanis are now part of the history as they are very well documented in numerous international documents including the official White Paper from the government of Pakistan issued on 5th August 1971 and the Humood-ur-Rehman Commission Report of 1974. 

Capitulation of the Pakistani administration there opened doors of hell for these non-Bengali Pakistanis who became the specific target of vengeance and retribution. Hundreds and thousands of them were once again murdered in cold blood and their bodies dumped into open ditches which had become mass graves for these poor people. Later on, all these mass graves of non-Bengalis were shamelessly & craftily used by Sheikh Mujib and his cohorts to show-case & trump up the false propaganda about this so-called genocide of the local Bengalis by the Pakistan army. The truth of the matter is that genocide of Bengalis had not happened at all. Bundle of Stories vis-à-vis Pakistan army's rape and genocide against the local Bengalis were purposely concocted to gain sympathy and to isolate Pakistan in the eyes of the international community. For this purpose, mass graves of the non-Bengali Pakistanis previously murdered by the anti-Pakistan elements were used to present them as those of the local Bengalis in order to implicate the Pakistan army in these crimes. The facts about such nefarious & shameless tactics are also very well documented in the international press including the famous book "Internment Camps of Bangladesh" by an American author Mrs. Loraine Mirza. Unfortunately, the tragedy that began for these Pakistanis, after surrender, did not simply end here. Soon after creation of Bangladesh, the political persecution of these Pakistanis continued and gained momentum day by day. As a first step, they were evicted from their homes to live in squalid shanty camps in the urban sprawls of Bangladesh. Several government promulgations, in the form of Presidential Orders by the prejudiced Bangladeshi government, were issued which had in fact become instruments to dispossess these Pakistanis of their properties and belongings. Presidential Order 1 and 16 of 1972 (Bangladesh Abandoned Property Order) is one such black order to quote from. As a result, their properties, businesses & belongings were confiscated and bank accounts seized, young men were branded as traitors & Pakistani collaborators and were incarcerated for indefinite periods without trial. Those cooped up in the camps were confined to these neo-internment camps, not allowed to move out for any thing including jobs, education, healthcare or any thing. 


www.paktribune.com


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## alamgir

www.muslimedia.comThe heartbreaking story of the 'Biharis' stranded in Bangladesh
INTERNMENT CAMPS OF BANGLADESH by Loraine Mirza. Pub: Crescent International, Markham, ONT., Canada, 1998. pp.172. Pbk: US$10.
By Tahir Mahmoud


Most people would be hard pressed to tell who the 'Stranded Pakistanis' or 'Bihari Muslims' in Bangladesh are. That neatly sums up their tragedy, which dates back to the turmoil surrounding the painful birth of Bangladesh in December 1971, out of what was formerly Pakistan's eastern wing. They have also suffered as a result of t the prejudices against Islam, Muslims and indeed Pakistan itself that are so prevalent in the world. Had the 'Stranded Pakistanis' been Jews or Christians, it is safe to assume that there would be an international outcry about their plight. From the US president down to the Congress and the toothless UN, all would have rallied in aid of these people.

But as they are Muslims, the UN has even refused to consider them as refugees, despite the strenuous efforts of Prince Sadruddin Agha Khan, who was a special representative of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees in the seventies. 

Journalist Loraine Mirza has painstakingly pieced together their tale after numerous trips to Bangladesh and Pakistan from her home in the US. The American-born Mirza, one of those plucky journalists who refuses to take 'no' for an answer, is eminently qualified to write about their plight because she has witnessed their tragedy from close quarters. She was on a council at the Pakistan embassy in Washington DC dealing with the press and media from 1971 to 1974. She left because she refused to abandon the cause of the 'Bihari Muslims' It was her conviction, inherited from her parents who fought against racism all their lives, and a strong commitment to see justice done, that led her to take up the cause of the Stranded Pakistanis. This book has been in the making for nearly 30 years. Who are the Bihari Muslims and what is their story? They are the victims of two upheavals: the partition of British India into Pakistan and India in 1947, and the painful disruption of Pakistan leading to the creation of Bangladesh in December 1971. Their 'crime' was that having migrated from India to Pakistan in 1947, albeit East Pakistan, they remained faithful to their adopted country in 1971. They have paid and are still paying a terrible price for such loyalty.

Urdu-speaking, unlike the majority Bengali-speaking people of former East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), the Biharis did not encounter many problems until Mujibur Rahman, founder/president of Bangladesh, emerged on the scene with his rhetoric of Bengali nationalism. Mujib was a mediocre politician (and not even particularly bright û he didn't graduate from college until the ripe old age of 30. But his rantings against West Pakistan made him popular in the East. He was a paid agent of India, a fact now admitted even in Bangladesh, albeit much too late. His daughter, Shaikh Hasina, is currently the prime minister of Bangladesh.
In the November 1970 general elections in Pakistan, Mujib's party, the Awami League, swept almost all the seats in East Pakistan, giving him an overall majority in Pakistan's parliament. This, however, ran contrary to the interests of the majority party from West Pakistan, the People's Party led by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. It was Bhutto who persuaded the military regime led by general Yahya Khan to postpone convening the national assembly, which would have elected Mujib as prime minister. With Bengali minds already poisoned against their alleged exploitation by 'West Pakistan,' the assembly postponement proved the final straw. 

Armed Awami League supporters, their ranks swelled by students and deserters from the army and police, went on a rampage in East Pakistan, in which tens of thousands of non-Bengalis were butchered between January and March 1971. The victims included the Urdu-speaking people (Biharis) as well as officials and their families from West Pakistan. It was not until the end of March 1971 that three army divisions were sent to East Pakistan to put down the insurgency and restore law and order.The army also made the mistake of antagonising western journalists by mishandling and expelling them from Dhaka. Already hostile to Pakistan, they descended on Calcutta. It was a propaganda coup for India, Pakistan's arch-enemy which had never reconciled with the creation of Pakistan. Already carrying inherent biases against Muslims, western journalists gave vent to their prejudices by filing outrageous stories fed to them by India about alleged atrocities perpetrated against the Bengalis. They did not bother to verify the facts. The truth is (as has now been admitted by some conscientious western journalists as well) that Awami League supporters perpetrated most of the atrocities, especially against the Urdu-speaking non-Bengalis. 

The allegation of mass rapes of one million Bengali women by 83,000 Pakistani soldiers, impregnating 200,000 in a matter of a few weeks, was circulated endlessly. How an army in the midst of an insurgency had time for such activity is mind-boggling. Loraine Mirza debunks these myths admirably. When she arrived in Bangladesh in 1986, she found abortion clinics, set up in 1972 ostensibly to cater to the rape victims, were still doing brisk business. Several clinics were opened by an American, Dr Harvey Carmen, who turned out to be not a medical doctor but a sociologist, as Ms Mirza reports (p.57). Women allegedly 'raped' by Pakistani soldiers in 1971 still needed abortions 15 years later! 

She also narrates how the Los Angeles Times staff writer, William J. Drummond, currently Professor of Journalism at Berkeley, was forced out of his job because he debunked stories about the genocide of three million Bengalis, a lie endlessly repeated even by Mujib (pp.135-137). But the story of the Bihari Muslims is far more serious and tragic. Branded as 'traitors' by the Bengalis, they were tormented, terrorised and shoved into 66 squalid camps in Bangladesh after the Pakistan army surrendered to the invading Indian army on December 16, 1971. A number of them, including children, were bayonetted to death in front of television cameras by such terrorists as Kader Sidki, a close ally of Shaikh Hasina. Loraine Mirza describes that the Biharis are not only denied jobs by Bangladesh but even the relief agenciesùthe International Committee of the Red Cross, Christian missionaries etcùpoach on their souls. And they have been frustrated in their quest to go to Pakistan by successive regimes in Islamabad. In 1974, an estimated 170,000 were repatriated but another 300,000 still remain in Bangladesh, the victims of endless prevarications by successive Pakistani rulers


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## akzaman

*Genocide by Pak Army*

Jaffer Raza

In 1947, two independent states emerged on the face of the world map: India and Pakistan. Pakistan had two wings: East Pakistan and West Pakistan. The two wings had little in common other than religion. West Pakistan dominated East Pakistan in almost all spheres of life, disparaging the numerical majority of the East Pakistani population. Ultimately, Shaikh Mujib-ur-Rehman led the Bengali nation to strive completely for the autonomy of the Bengali nation, culminating with the birth of Bangladesh. However millions were slaughtered in the Bengali independence movement, with the West Pakistan army proving as mercenaries. The purpose of this study is to argue that the events of 1971 can be classified as genocide. This paper will
attempt to show the viciousness of the crimes and brutality perpetrated on the Bengali nation, and will also attempt to prove that the official Pakistani version is far from what really happened. The genocide committed by the West Pakistan army in Bangladesh was by no means justified.

We live in a world today where the death of one hundred people in a plane crash is viewed as a national tragedy, while the death of three million people has escaped the scope of common knowledge. One of the biggest genocides in history has been sidelined and September 11th, 2001 is still in the media limelight. It seems that the death of a single person is a national tragedy and the death of millions remains a mere statistic. What happened in Bangladesh between March 25 and December 16, 1971 epitomized the spirit of the human will, and, yet again proved man's unlimited capacity to be brutal towards his fellow beings. The events which will unfold throughout this paper will further strengthen this claim, as people of one country and religion were perpetrating atrocities on others. This paper will attempt to show the viciousness of the crimes and brutality perpetrated on the Bengali nation at the time of the Fall of Dhaka and will also attempt to prove that the official Pakistani version of the event is far from what really happened. The genocide committed by the West Pakistan army in Bangladesh was by no means justified. The purpose of this study is to argue that the events of 1971 in Bangladesh can be classified as genocide. The word
genocide means The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

In 1947, when the British withdrew from the Subcontinent, India and Pakistan emerged as two independent nations. The basis of this division was religion. Pakistan had the unique distinction of being a nation divided into two wings that were separated by miles of hostile Indian territory. This unnatural gulf of territory was naturally going to breed problems for the unity of the country at large. Therefore Pakistan, then the largest Muslim state, had a built-in problem. The two wings had little in common other than religion. Though East Pakistan had a clear majority of the population, the powerful minority of West Pakistan dominated. This domination was unfair and unjust. There was discrimination in every sector of public life. The civil service,
bureaucracy, business, industry, banking etc of East Pakistan were dominated by West Pakistan. Some sources suggest that the first seed of an independent Bangladesh was sown when Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan declared that Urdu and Urdu only will be the language for Pakistan. This was declared at a meeting in Dhaka in 1948 and was not acceptable to the people of East Pakistan. This naturally made the people of East Pakistan agitated. There were immediate protests as Bengali speaking people made up around 55% of the total population in Pakistan. The language problem added fuel to their discontent. There was increasing frustration and mistrust towards the government of Pakistan, on the part of Bengalis. An incident took place where the police opened fire at a students protest march on 21
February 1952. Many innocent students and civilians died. The people of East Pakistan were freedom loving and the blood shed on that day further strengthened their independence movement. So the desire, and then demand, for a separate independent state became inevitable.

Historically, East Pakistan was allocated only 36 % of the total resources and East Pakistanis occupied only 20 % of the positions in the federal government. During the war against India in 1965, East Pakistan was left defenseless. In 1970, a terrible cyclone struck Bangladesh, in which more than 250,000 people died. The government showed a lack of concern for the Bengali people and the East wing was neglected by the Pakistan government. This alienation gave rise to the popularity of the Awami League and its
reflection was seen in the general elections that took place in December 1970 which were won by a huge majority by the party. The Awami League was seen as a platform where the people of East Pakistan could voice their concerns and grievances. Therefore the party won 167 of 169 seats in East Pakistan but none in West Pakistan. The results of the election are a proof of the popularity enjoyed by the party in the Eastern wing. Even though no seats were secured by the party in West Pakistan, it still secured absolute
majority in the Pakistan National Assembly, e.g. 167 of the total 313 seats. As the popularity of the party increased, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman became a prominent leader in East Pakistan. At this point there were great differences between politicians of both the wings. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto along with General Yahya Khan refused to accept the majority party, therefore denying them their fundamental and democratic right.

What can be deduced from the above information is that the Bengali people were economically, socially and politically deprived. They did not have the right to self determination. As Pakistani citizens they had an equal right if not more, owing to their greater numbers, to economic well being, political representation and social acceptance. It seems that the distinction between an East and West Pakistani citizen was totally
unwarranted. Discriminating between different races and ethnical backgrounds within the same country is rather unfortunate. The Alienation of East Pakistan was a nail in our national coffin.

After the 1970 elections, Martial Law Administrator General Yahya Khan refused to hand over power to the elected representative Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. . Some efforts had been made for negotiations. Yahya Khan, President of Pakistan and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto; Leader of Peoples Party of West Pakistan came to Dhaka to hold discussions with Bongobondhu Sheikh Mujibur Rehman that lasted a few days. After the failure of negotiations General Yahya Khan On March 25th, 1971 ordered the Pakistan Army to debilitate the Bengali Nation. A decision was taken to crush the Awami league and its supporters. Under General Yahya Khans direction the Pakistan Army began the genocide on 25th March, 1971. For the Pakistan army it was necessary to launch a campaign of genocide to eradicate the threat posed by the Awami
league, as their popularity and success was a threat to the administration. "Kill three million of them," said President Yahya Khan, "and the rest will eat out of our hands." A terror campaign was launched to intimidate the Bengalis into submission. Within hours a mass slaughter was carried out in Dhaka, with the heaviest attacks concentrated on University of Dhaka and the Hindu-dominated areas. The Pakistan Army came with hit lists and systematically killed several hundred Bengalis. Death squads roamed the
streets of Dhaka. An approximate number of 7000 people were murdered in a single night. The main targets of the genocide were Bengali military men, Hindus, supporters of the Awami league, students and the Bengali intellectuals. Shiekh Mujibur Rahman was captured and flown to West Pakistan for imprisonment.

A week after Shiekh Mujibur Rahman was imprisoned, half the population of Dacca had fled, and at least 30,000 people had been killed. At the same time Chittagong, had lost half its population. Innocent people of East Pakistan people were taking flight, and it was estimated by some sources that in April approximately thirty million people were wandering helplessly across East Pakistan to escape the grasp of the military. The military intervention of India was due to the influx of ten million refugees from East Pakistan to India, which overwhelmed the latters resources.

Almost all villages of Bangladesh were turned into a graveyard by the Pakistan army and its allies such as the Al- Badar gangsters. According to Rounaq Jahan, a Bengali national, "All through the liberation war,
able-bodied young men were suspected of being actual or potential freedom fighters. Thousands were arrested, tortured, and killed. Eventually cities and towns became bereft of young males who either took refuge in India or joined the liberation war. Especially during the first phase of the genocide, young able-bodied males were the victims of indiscriminate killings." Dead bodies could be seen on the streets of Bangladesh, floating down rivers, and near army concentration camps. Mass murders were committed
at places which could not be easily accessed by the journalists. Hindu houses were painted with yellow Hs. Hindus were robbed of their lands and shops and an organized extermination of the creed was carried out. I was told by a friend of mine, who was in a concentration camp, about a Hindu prisoner who used to perform 'namaz' five times a day like the Muslims because he could escape torture only during prayer times, said Maniruzzaman Mia a Bengali national.Along with these incidents there are several other
instances where the brutal and inhumane acts can be witnessed. These couples of examples are a mere reflection of what was happening in the Eastern wing in that period.

Atrocities were committed on the Bengali women as well, in the form of gang rape and murder. It is commonly known as the Rape of Bangladesh. Sources suggest that between 200,000 and 400,000 women were raped in the short period. Since the majority population in Bangladesh is Muslim, most women who were raped were Muslims. Rape in Bangladesh had hardly been restricted to beauty or religion as most women were Muslim. Age was also no barrier in this heinous act as girls of eight and grandmothers of seventy-five had been sexually assaulted. Apart from being assaulted on the spot; several Bengali women were abducted and were held by force in the military barracks of the Pakistan army, for nightly use. Another shocking fact that was revealed during the research was that some women were raped as many as eighty times in a night.

After the Pakistan Army cracked down on the innocent people of the then East Pakistan and committed the most heinous crimes against them, the Bengalis stood up as one to defend their freedom and fight for their liberation. Zia-ur-Rahman, a young Major in the Pakistan Army posted in Chittagong, volunteered to fight against this injustice and made the announcement of independence from the Chittagong radio station, on behalf of Bongobondhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman on March 27th 1971.

Most of the young and able bodied men, determined to fight back joined the Mukti Bahini, the Bengali liberation army. Such a force was formed to put a halt on the atrocities committed by the Pakistan army as it was a direct consequence to the actions undertaken by them. Thus a Liberation Force was formed in cooperation with the Indian Army, which ultimately turned out to become a disciplined force and defeated the Pakistan Army. On December 16th 1971 the Pakistan army surrendered to the allied forces of the Indian army and the Mukti Bahini. This was the point where the viciousness of the Pakistan army was put to a halt as they were made to surrender. Some sources suggest that it was one of the biggest surrenders in modern history.

The United Nations Human Rights Commission report states that the killings in East Pakistan took place at a rate of between six to twelve thousand people per day. The carnage went on for 267 days, which takes up the total death toll to about 3 million. On the occasion of the 33rd anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UNHCR report stated that the genocide committed in Bangladesh was the worst in modern history.

What can be deduced from the above information is that the actions of the Pakistan army in East Pakistan were brutal and barbaric. It was a mass attack on the lives, respect and human rights of the Bengalis. What appears most appalling to me was the fact that the press was never allowed to investigate exactly went on at that time, as the atrocities committed were at places outside the reach of the press. This I feel was a mere tactic used by the authorities so that people are kept as far away from reality as possible. It is indeed sad that the school syllabus designed by the state, to date, contains no mention of such events. What is rather interesting to note here is that the killing of young men could have benefited the Pakistan
army in its cause but the rape of women can only be classed as sheer ruthlessness.

General A.K. Niazi, the Pakistani commander of the eastern command at the time of the fall of Dhaka, claimed that he and his subordinates were innocent. He claims that when he surrendered to General Aurora, he was merely following orders from the GHQ in Rawalpindi. A commission was set up and was called the Hamoodur Rehman Commission to investigate the incident. General Niazi disregards the work of that commission because it was headed by a Bengali Chief Justice. The report of the commission was released later, to be burnt by the Pakistani government. Most sources suggest that the report was unbiased and contained alarming facts and figures degrading the Pakistan army. The main reason for the report being unbiased was that an independent commission was set up and its proceedings were free from outside interference. The original report is claimed to be unbiased but the complete report is yet to be made public. Though an incomplete version of the report was published very recently in 1998. The proceedings and findings of the report also suggest that the acts of the Pakistan army can indeed be classified as genocide. But sadly the Pakistanis to date do not accept the events of 1971 and feign innocence.

I feel that hiding the facts from the general public cannot cover up our unjustifiable treatment of the Bengalis. The time has come for the people of West Pakistan to realize that their attitude towards people in the other wing was biased and unjust. It is indeed sad that the people who were involved in such a heinous act remain unquestioned even today. One can only hope that such atrocities will not be committed on other human beings in the future. 
http://www.batkhela.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=973


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> So, you feel being related is something that gives one fame?
> 
> So you are an advocate of the pickaback concept?
> 
> Great!
> 
> I am related to Jesus Christ!



A stupid example. 



> Krishna Bose is also related to Subash Chandra Bose. Heard of her?



Well yes. She's quite famous having made it into rediff. 

http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/may/04look.htm 



> Do you know the relatives of Bahadur Shah Zaffer, the last Mogul Emperor of India?
> 
> Your logic astounds!



Nope, but perhaps they'd be quite well known in the locality they live. I'm sure they feel enough fame, even if you're going back centuries now in a desperate attempt to prove some sort of point. 

Let's assume you're correct, and Bose did it just for fame (which obviously she didnt), why then did all the Bangladeshi professors, doctors, OBE's, ambassadors agree with her at the conference? Did they want fame too?


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Why post all this?
> 
> What will Roadrunner understand?
> 
> He wishes to run away from history that has been recorded the world over and his only straw that a drowning man clutches is the relative of Netaji Subash Bose - a failed assistant editor of a Bengali newspaper of Calcutta sensationalising to be recognised!



Not quite a falied assistant editor, she's a relation of a famed Bharati and a Professor who's worked at Washington University amongst many others. Her article is in fact agreed upon by many Bangladeshi professors, and the Bangladeshi Ambassador. 



> He doesn't even give credence to his President's statement in the book he wrote!
> 
> He believes Bose to Musharraf!
> 
> Could be because Musharraf liked a Bengali girl when he was commissioned!



Musharraf says the same thing actually. In his recent visit he refused to apologize, but said that the excesses were regrettable. No regret for the excesses of the Muktihi Bahini though now which have already been proven. 

I've said the same thing all along.


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## HK-47

> Her article is in fact agreed upon by many Bangladeshi professors, and the Bangladeshi Ambassador.


where exactly?may I see the source?I thought she gave lectures to the Americans,where did BD ambassadors and envoys come from?or perhaps I missed something.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

RR

Read his book.

If you can't buy it, go to a library!

Alamgir,

Are you suggesting that there was no genocide and the world was wrong.

I presume the Bengalis merely wilted with fear and had a widespread epidemic of heart attacks by just observing the valiant uniformed Punajbis!


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## roadrunner

HK-47 said:


> where exactly?may I see the source?I thought she gave lectures to the Americans,where did BD ambassadors and envoys come from?or perhaps I missed something.



It's been quoted in a previous post. All this cut & paste flame makes it difficult to follow. 

*During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.

They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country&#8217;s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. * 

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/07/nat3.htm


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> RR
> 
> Read his book.
> 
> If you can't buy it, go to a library!
> 
> Alamgir,
> 
> Are you suggesting that there was no genocide and the world was wrong.
> 
> I presume the Bengalis merely wilted with fear and had a widespread epidemic of heart attacks by just observing the valiant uniformed Punajbis!



I guess you could use that argument for all the Biharis also. Perhaps fatalistic fright made them all wilt at the first sign of the well built, but atrociously discriminated Bengalis who had 4 leaders of Pakistan in the first 10 years of its formation. 

And Musharraf claims only excesses. There was no political discrimination against them (or economic in my view). Since you know, tell what was was hugely discriminatory about government policy


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## akzaman

*Genocide in East Pakistan*

The most fundamental of all rights the right of a man to come to the aid of a fellow human being is now being denied with a degree of official arrogance seldom displayed in recent history.

The people of East Pakistan, who are still suffering from homelessness and hunger caused by the tidal waves of less than a year ago, are now caught up in a man-made disaster. Their land has become a locked-in arena of authorized slaughter. Communications with the outside world have been reduced almost to the vanishing point. Those who have offered emergency medical aid or other help have been told to stay out.

The present situation has its remote origins in the division of the Indian subcontinent into two nations in 1947. The movement for independence from Great Britain had been complicated and imperiled by the existence of Hindu and Moslem blocs. Great Britain had fostered the concept of a partitioned subcontinent in which India would be predominantly Hindu and Pakistan would be predominantly Moslem. For a long time, Gandhi and Nehru had opposed partition, believing it imperative fat both religious orders to be accommodated within a single large national design. Gandhi and Nehru withdrew their opposition to partition, however, when it appeared certain that national independence might otherwise be indefinitely delayed.

The design for partition called for two nations. Actually, three nations emerged. For Pakistan was partitioned within itself, into East and West. The Western part was larger geographically and became the capital. The Eastern part was more populous and richer in resources. The units lay more than 1,000 miles apart.

In order to comprehend the geographical anomaly this physical separation represented, one has only to imagine what would have happened if Maine and Georgia had decided to form a separate nation, Maorgia, with practically the whole of the United States lying in between. Let us further suppose that the capital of the new nation would have been Augusta, Northern Maorgia, while most of the people and resources would have been in Southern Maorgia. The result would have been an administrative, political, and economic shambles. What has happened in Pakistan roughly fits that description. Further compounding the situation are the severe cultural and historic differences between Punjabi (West) and Bengali (East) societies. 

For a time, the peoples of East and West Pakistan were held together by the spiritual and political exhilaration of a new nationalism. But the underlying difficulties grew more pronounced and visible year by year. The people of East Pakistan chafed under what they felt was West Pakistan's latter-day version of British colonialism. They claimed they were not being represented in proportion to their numbers in either high posts or policies of government. They charged they were being exploited economically, furnishing labor and resources without sharing fairly in the profits from production. They pointed to the sharp disparity in wages and living conditions between East and West. 

It was inevitable that the disaffection should reach an eruptive stage. There is no point here in detailing the facts attending the emergence of political movements seeking self-rule for East Pakistan. All that need be said that the central government at Islamabad finally did agree to submit self-rule propositions to the East Pakistan electorate. The result of the general election was an overwhelming vote in favor of self-rule. The central government at Islamabad not only failed to respect this popular decision, but ordered in armed troops to forestall implementation. The official slaughter began on March 26th.

A few documented episodes:

1) Tanks and soldiers with submachine guns and grenades seized Dacca University early in the morning on March 26. All students residing in Iqbal Hall, the dormitory center, were put to death. The building was gutted by shells from tanks.

2) One hundred and three Hindu students residing in Jagannath Hall of Dacca University were shot to death. Six Hindu students were forced at gunpoint to dig graves for the others and then were shot themselves.

3) Professor C. C. Dev, widely respected head of the Department of Philosophy, was marched out of his home to an adjacent field and shot. 

4) The last names of other faculty members who were killed or seriously wounded: Minirussaman, Guhathakurta, Munim, Naqui, Huda, Innasali, Ali.

5) Central government troops forced their way into Flat D of Building 34 at the university, seized Professor Muniru Zaman, his son, his brother (employed by the East Pakistan High Court), and his nephew, and marched the group to the first-floor foyer, where they were machine-gunned.

6) A machine gun was installed on the roof of the terminal building at Sadarghat, the dock area of Old Dacca. On March 26, all civilians within range were fired upon. After the massacre, the bodies were dragged into buses. Some were burned. Some were dumped into the Buriganga River, adjacent to the terminal.

7) On the morning of March 28, machine guns were placed at opposite ends of Shandari Bazar, a Hindu artisan center in old Dacca. Central government forces suddenly opened fire on civilians trapped in the bazaar. The corpses were strewn on the street.

8) On the evening of March 28, soldiers invaded Ramna Kalibari, an ancient small Hindu settlement, killing all the occupants (estimated at 200). On March 29, about one hundred corpses were put on display in the village.

9) The flight of civilians from Dacca was blocked at gunpoint.

10) On the morning of April 2, forty soldiers entered a village named Barda, rounded up the male population (approximately 600) and marched them at gunpoint to Gulshan Park; where they were interrogated. Ten members of the group were then taken off; their fate is unknown.

The foregoing represents a small fraction of the authenticated accounts that in the aggregate tell of widespread killings; especially of youth and educated people. It is futile to attempt to estimate the number of dead or wounded. Each city and village has its own tales of horror. It is significant that the government at Islamabad, until only last week, enforced vigorous measures to keep out reporters.

The U.S. State Department is in possession of authenticated descriptions not just of the incidents mentioned above but of countless others. Such reports have been sent to Washington by the American Consul General in Dacca and by American physicians attached to AID. For some reason, the State Department has issued no report covering the information at its disposal.

American guns, ammunition, and other weapons sent to Pakistan were used in the attack on Bengali people. 

So were weapons from the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China. The United Nations has been helpless in the present situation. The Central government in Pakistan claims it is dealing with an internal situation beyond the jurisdiction of the U.N. the nation. 

This may help to explain why the U.N. has so far been unable under its Charter to take action against what appears to be a provable case of genocide. But it doesnt explain why men of conscience have not stood up in the United Nations to split the sky with their indignation. 

The central government at Islamabad has forestalled efforts to send food, medicine, and medical personnel into the devastated zones. It seems inconceivable that this decision can be allowed to stand. The Bengalis may not possess political sovereignty, but they do possess human sovereignty under the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

The United States has not hesitated to speak sharply and effectively wherever its national interests were involved. Americans have every right to expect the United States to speak sharply when the human interest is involved. If the United States can find it within its means and its morality to send guns to Pakistan, it can also find it within its means and its morality to send food and first aid. 

The President has said that events in Vietnam represent a test of American manhood. The proposition is dubious. What is certain, however, is that events in Pakistan are a test of American compassion and conscience.

*Saturday Review May 22, 1971; p. 20-21*


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> I guess you could use that argument for all the Biharis also. Perhaps fatalistic fright made them all wilt at the first sign of the well built, but atrociously discriminated Bengalis who had 4 leaders of Pakistan in the first 10 years of its formation.
> 
> And Musharraf claims only excesses. There was no political discrimination against them (or economic in my view). Since you know, tell what was was hugely discriminatory about government policy



Why? Can't you spend some money and buy Musharraf's book?

Or now that things are getting uncomfortable, you wish to show your loyalty to the Opposition blokes?

Could it be that the educated is required to govern and not the feudal lot with Divine blessed rights being the sole criterion and hence the four leaders? ! 

Who were the bureaucrats and the stalwarts of the Judiciary - the Mohajir. Again it was education that got them there.


----------



## alamgir

Salim said:


> RR
> 
> Read his book.
> 
> If you can't buy it, go to a library!
> 
> Alamgir,
> 
> Are you suggesting that there was no genocide and the world was wrong.
> 
> I presume the Bengalis merely wilted with fear and had a widespread epidemic of heart attacks by just observing the valiant uniformed Punajbis!


you never think why PA start action in east pakistan.and genocide of non bangalies by terrorist mukti bhani start much before the PA action,PA only react to safe,government institutions,petoriatic,pakistani.yes offcours PA commet some mistake,where some civilions loos life,but crimes of triators mukti bhani were much more then PA.


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## ahussains

These are mainly political mistakes and miss handlings of the leaders and Propeganda by the Indians they well supported mukti bhani and use the Bangalis to divide the Pakistan .. did any one know how many Bangali are working in Karachi industrial ares and Road side pan shops if we hated them we can easily kill them here tooo how many are in Middle east on Pakistani Passport illegel working and Saudia and UAE also they spoile the name of Pakistan too .They are always invole in the Illegal activites in Makkah Madina Every where when any one goes on Hajj can easily saw them what they are doing ... Last Night i am seeing a dram on Rashid Minhas did Mutee Rehman done the Right thing it means bangalis are never trusted ... You can never trust them ,,


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## Ababeel

Why we are fighting here for a cruel episode directed by Secularists on both sides who destroyed our unity and divided us in two parts. It's time we must return towards the Islamic values and start thinking what Islam wants from us which can give us success in both the worlds, here and in life after death.


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## akzaman

*Dacca, City of the Dead*

Within hours after launching a tank-led offensive in Dacca and other East Pakistani cities on the night of March 25, the Pakistan army imposed a virtual blackout on the brutal civil war in Bangla Desh (Bengal State) by expelling foreign newsmen. TIME correspondent Dan Coggin, who was among them, recently trekked back from India by Honda, truck, bus and bicycle to become the first American journalist to visit Dacca since the fighting started. His report:

Dacca was always a fairly dreary city, offering slim pleasures beyond the Hotel Intercontinental and a dozen Chinese restaurants that few of its 1,500,000 people could afford. Now. in many ways. it has become a city of the dead. A month after the army struck unleashing tank guns and automatic weapons against largely unarmed civilians in 34 hours of wanton slaughter, Dacca is still shocked and shuttered, its remaining inhabitants living in terror under the grip of army con trol. The exact toll will never be known. but probably more than 10,000 were killed in Dacca alone.

Perhaps half the city's population has fled to outlying villages. With the lifting of army blockades at road and river ferry exits, the exodus is resuming. Those who remain venture outdoors only for urgent food shopping. Rice prices have risen 50% since the army reportedly started burning grain silos in some areas. In any case, 14 of the city's 18 food bazaars were destroyed. The usually jammed streets are practically empty and no civil government is functioning.

"Kill the Bastards!" On every rooftop, Pakistans green-and-white flags hang limply in the steamy stillness. "We all know that Pakistan is finished,' said one Bengali. 'but we hope the flags will keep the soldiers away.'. As another form of insurance, portraits of Pakistan's late founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah, and even the current President Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan, were displayed prominently. But there was no mistaking the fact that the East Pakistanis viewed the armys occupation of Dacca as a setback and not a surrender. "We will neither forgive nor forget," said one Bengali. On learning that I was a sangbadik (journalist), various townspeople led me to mass graves, to a stairwell where two professors were shot to death, and to scenes of other atrocities.

The most savage killing occurred in the Old City, where several sections were burned to the ground, poured gasoline around entire blocks, igniting them with flamethrowers, then mowed down people trying to escape the cordons of fire, "They're coming out!" a Westerner heard soldiers cry, "Kill the bastards!"

One Bengali businessman told of losing his son, daughter-in-Iaw and four grandchildren in the fire. Few apparently survived in the destroyed sections-25 square blocks-of the Old City. If they escaped the flames, they ran into gunfire. To frighten survivors, soldiers refused to allow the removal of decomposing bodies for three days, despite the Moslem belief in prompt burial, preferably within 24 hours, to free the soul.

The dead of Dacca included some of East Pakistan's most prominent educators and businessmen, as well as some 500 students. Among at least seven University of Dacca professors who were executed without apparent reason was the head of the philosophy department. Govinda Chandra Dev, 65, a gentle Hindu who believed in unity in diversity. Another victim was Jogesh Chandra Ghosh, 86, the invalid millionaire chemist. Ghosh, who did not believe in banks, was dragged from his bed and shot to death by soldiers who looted more than $1 million in rupees from his home.

Looting was also the motive for the slaying of Ranada Prasad Saha, 80, one of East Pakistan's leading jute exporters and one of its few philanthropists: he had built a modern hospital offering free medical care at Mirzapur, 40 miles north of Dacca. Dev, Ghosh and Saha were all Hindus.

"Where arc the maloun [cursed ones] rampaging soldiers often asked as they searched for Hindus. But the Hindus were by no means the only victims. Many soldiers arriving in East Pakistan were reportedly told the absurdity that it was all right to kill Bengali Moslems because they were Hindus in disguise. "We can kill anyone for anything," a Punjabi captain told a relative. "We are accountable to no one.

Next Prime Minister. The tales of brutality are seemingly endless. A young man whose house was being searched begged the soldiers to do anything but to leave his 17-year-old sister alone; they spared him so he could watch them murder her with a bayonet. Colonel Abudl Hai, a Bengali physician attached to the East Regiment, was allowed to make a phone call to his family; an hour later his body was delivered to his home. An old man-who decided that Friday prayers were more important than the curfew was shot to death as he walked into a mosque.

About 1:30 on the morning of the attack, two armored personnel carriers arrived at the Dhanmandi home of Sheik Mujibur ("Mujib") Rahman, 51, the political leader behind the campaign for Bengali independence. Mujib first took refuge beneath a bed when the Special Security Group commandos began to spray his house with small-arms fire. Then, during a lull, he went to the downstairs veranda, raised his hands in surrender and shouted, "There is no need for shooting. Here I am. Take me."

Mujib was flown to West Pakistan, where he is reported held in Attock Fort near Peshawar. As an activist who had already spent nine years and eight months in jail, he may have reasoned at the time of his arrest that his political goals would be served by the martyrdom of further imprisonment. But he obviously did not expect to face a treason charge and possible execution. Only two months earlier, after all, President Yahya had referred to him as "the next Prime Minister of Pakistan."

No Choice. In Mujib's absence, the resistance movement is sorely lacking leadership, as well as arms, ammunition and communications gear. In late March, the mukti fauj (liberation forces) overwhelmed several company-size elements, as at Kushtia and Pabna, but bolt-action rifles cannot stop Sabre jets, artillery and army troops operating in battalion strength.

Still, everywhere I visited on the journey to Dacca, I found astonishing unanimity on the Bengali desire for independence and a determination to resist the Pakistan army with whatever means available. "We will not be slaves, said one resistance officer, "so there is no choice but to fight until we win." The oncoming monsoon rains and the Islamabad government's financial problems will also work in favor of Bangla Desh. As the months pass and such hardships increase, Islamabad may have to face the fact that unity by force of arms is not exactly the Pakistan that Jinnah had in mind.

TIME May 3, 1971; pp. 28


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Why? Can't you spend some money and buy Musharraf's book?
> 
> Or now that things are getting uncomfortable, you wish to show your loyalty to the Opposition blokes?
> 
> Could it be that the educated is required to govern and not the feudal lot with Divine blessed rights being the sole criterion and hence the four leaders? !
> 
> Who were the bureaucrats and the stalwarts of the Judiciary - the Mohajir. Again it was education that got them there.



If the Mohajirs, including Bengalis got their bureaucratic etc jobs due to their education, then where was the discrimination you're harping on about? Does it not sound fair to you?


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## roadrunner

kbagdadi said:


> Why we are fighting here for a cruel episode directed by Secularists on both sides who destroyed our unity and divided us in two parts. It's time we must return towards the Islamic values and start thinking what Islam wants from us which can give us success in both the worlds, here and in life after death.



I don't agree with the "both sides" you use here. Unity was destroyed by Mujib and his followers who brainwashed easily their own people into nationalism (which has strong roots amongst the Bengalis). When Mujib said that East Pakistan would be the richest country in the world, selling golden threads of jute, if it weren't for West Pakistan, the people believed him. I cannot say that Gen Yahya Khan did not try for unity. The central government of Pakistan at the time also wanted unity. Only the Awami League were pushing for splitting the whole country in two..not that i necessarily think it's a bad thing.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> If the Mohajirs, including Bengalis got their bureaucratic etc jobs due to their education, then where was the discrimination you're harping on about? Does it not sound fair to you?



There was nothing to discriminate.

Others were plumb D-umb!

RR, 

Are you on some barbiturates that you give that dunkard and womaniser Yahyah credit?


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## Adux

kbagdadi said:


> Why we are fighting here for a cruel episode directed by Secularists on both sides who destroyed our unity and divided us in two parts. It's time we must return towards the Islamic values and start thinking what Islam wants from us which can give us success in both the worlds, here and in life after death.



That is an insult to your forefathers. 
I understand when people, as we had a bad past, but lets put it away and move forward. But this absurd.


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## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> I don't agree with the "both sides" you use here. Unity was destroyed by Mujib and his followers who brainwashed easily their own people into nationalism (which has strong roots amongst the Bengalis). When Mujib said that East Pakistan would be the richest country in the world, selling golden threads of jute, if it weren't for West Pakistan, the people believed him. I cannot say that Gen Yahya Khan did not try for unity. The central government of Pakistan at the time also wanted unity. Only the Awami League were pushing for splitting the whole country in two..not that i necessarily think it's a bad thing.



roadrunner i completely DISAGREE with you & the anti-Bengali attitude that you are portraying is actually suicidal for Pakistan's foreign policy Bangladesh is an important member country in the geopolitics of south Asia this kind of mentality will only push it far from Pakistan
thank you

kbagdadi i apologize to you for any offense that you might have felt you are right brother the ummah needs unity its the need of the hour i am with you on this one.


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> There was nothing to discriminate.
> 
> Others were plumb D-umb!
> 
> RR,
> 
> Are you on some barbiturates that you give that dunkard and womaniser Yahyah credit?



whether he was a womanizer, an axe murderer or rapist is irrelevant as to whether he wanted unity or not. The whole point of the war was that he did want a united East and West wing, else there wouldn't have been any fighting !!!!


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## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> roadrunner i completely DISAGREE with you & the anti-Bengali attitude that you are portraying is actually suicidal for Pakistan's foreign policy Bangladesh is an important member country in the geopolitics of south Asia this kind of mentality will only push it far from Pakistan
> thank you
> 
> kbagdadi i apologize to you for any offense that you might have felt you are right brother the ummah needs unity its the need of the hour i am with you on this one.



Not true at all. Bangladesh is irrelevant to Pakistan's foreign policy. They do not have an Army or Air force or a Navy, trade is minimal between the two countries, all that happens is they dump a lot of illegals onto Pakistan that soak up the stronger rupee. Tell me how or why Pakistan needs Bangladesh. I can tell you many ways that Bangladesh needs Pakistan more than the other way round. I'm not interested in trying to please Bangladeshis or whoever, only facts interest me, so you tell me how Pakistan needs Bangladesh more than Bangladesh needs Pakistan.


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## Adux

Didnt Mujib win the elections, why wasnt he allowed to become PM?


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## roadrunner

Adux said:


> Didnt Mujib win the elections, why wasnt he allowed to become PM?




 We've been through this a hundred times, why doesn't it sink into you? Mujib won the elections, but he wanted to split up Pakistan into TWO DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. If he wanted to lead a single, united Pakistan, there would have been no problem with him doing so. Legally he was wrong, what he proposed went against the Legal Framework Order of the elections, so the courts of Pakistan would have not allowed him to take power. The only way to achieve his goal was through war, which he had pre planned for a long time with Bharat behind the scenes.


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## Adux

> Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Anwar Iqbal
> 
> WASHINGTON, July 6: The US State Department&#8217;s newly declassified documents about the 1971 debacle show that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman wanted to have a &#8220;form of confederation&#8221; with Pakistan rather than a separate country. The documents include two telegrams dating Feb 28, 1971 and Dec 23, 1971 &#8220;based on the sentiments of Sheikh Mujib and the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi,&#8221; showing that Sheikh Mujib was not secessionist, as many in the then West Pakistan believed.
> 
> The telegrams, sent to the State Department by the US embassies in Pakistan and India, document key foreign policy decisions and actions of the administrations of Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford.
> 
> The telegram, entitled &#8220;Conversation with Sheikh Mujibur Rahman,&#8221; shows the path followed by the Awami League leader as he &#8220;talks of excesses by West Pakistan, states he (Mujib) is not willing to share power and does not want separation but rather a form of confederation.&#8221;
> 
> In November 1969, a year before the war began, a US diplomat sent this report to Washington: &#8220;&#8230; East Pakistan, one also senses a growing undercurrent that beyond some intangible point the West Pakistan landlord-civil service-military elite might prefer to see the country split rather than submit to Bengali ascendancy.&#8221;
> 
> One telegram quotes Indira Gandhi as saying that President Nixon has &#8220;misunderstanding about India&#8217;s case&#8221; and that &#8220;there is fantastic nonsense being talked about in the US about our having received promises from the Soviet Union about the Soviet intervention against the seventh fleet and against China.&#8221;
> 
> The documents released on June 28 provide full coverage of the US policy towards India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the newly created state of Bangladesh from January 1969 to December 1972.
> 
> Documents from March to December 1971 include intelligence assessments, key messages from the US embassies in Islamabad and New Delhi and the Consulate General in Dhaka, responses to National Security Study memoranda and full transcripts of the presidential tape recordings that are summarized and excerpted in editorial notes in volume XI.
> 
> The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.
> 
> During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during and after the military action was not authentic.
> 
> They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.
> 
> Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country&#8217;s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.
> 
> Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.
> 
> Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic, told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.
> 
> Based on her extensive interviews with eyewitnesses, the study also determines the pattern of conflict as three-layered: West Pakistan versus East Pakistan, East Pakistanis (pro-Independence) versus East Pakistanis (pro-Union) and the fateful war between India and Pakistan.
> 
> Prof Bose noted that no neutral study of the conflict has been done and reports that are passed on as part of history are narratives that strengthen one point of view by rubbishing the other. The Bangladeshi narratives, for instance, focus on the rape issue and use that not only to demonize the Pakistan army but also exploit it as a symbol of why it was important to break away from (West) Pakistan.
> 
> Prof Bose, a Bengali herself and belonging to the family of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, emphasized the need for conducting independent studies of the 1971 conflict to bring out the facts.
> 
> She also spoke about the violence generated by all sides. &#8220;The civil war of 1971 was fought between those who believed they were fighting for a united Pakistan and those who believed their chance for justice and progress lay in an independent Bangladesh. Both were legitimate political positions. All parties in this conflict embraced violence as a means to the end, all committed acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their share of humanity. These attributes make the 1971 conflict particularly suitable for efforts towards reconciliation, rather than recrimination,&#8221; says Prof Bose.



http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/07/nat3.htm


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## roadrunner

^Read the 6-point plan first. Then read the Legal Framework Order. 

Here's 4 of the points. 


The federal government should deal with only two subjects: defence and foreign affairs, and all other residuary subjects shall be vested in the federating states. 
Two separate, but freely convertible currencies for two wings should be introduced; or if this is not feasible, there should be one currency for the whole country, but effective constitutional provisions should be introduced to stop the flight of capital from East to West Pakistan. Furthermore, a separate banking reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy be adopted for East Pakistan. 
The power of taxation and revenue collection shall be vested in the federating units and the federal centre will have no such power. The federation will be entitled to a share in the state taxes to meet its expenditures.
There should be two separate accounts for the foreign exchange earnings of the two wings; the foreign exchange requirements of the federal government should be met by the two wings equally or in a ratio to be fixed; indigenous products should move free of duty between the two wings, and the constitution should empower the units to establish trade links with foreign countries. 

This isn't a federation. It's a weak, divided country. Only a federation in name.


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## akzaman

*The Significance of the Six-Point Movement and its Impact on Bangladeshs Struggle for Freedom and Self-determination*

Introduction:The historic Six-Point movement in 1966 was the turning point in Bangladeshs quest for greater autonomy and self-determination from Pakistans colonial domination. The six-point demand has been widely credited as the charter of freedom in the history of Bangladeshs struggle for freedom and independence. 

The six-point plan had envisaged, among other things, a full-blown federal form of Government based on the 1940 Lahore Resolution, a parliamentary system of government directly elected by the people on the basis of adult franchise, two separate currencies or two reserve banks for the two wings of Pakistan, and a para-military force for East Pakistan. The spectacular success of the six-point movement in 1966 had prompted the ruling coterie of Pakistan to discredit the organizers of this movement. 

Although Ayub Khans diabolical regime had used various brutal punitive measures against the proponents, organizers and supporters of the six-point formula, this historic movement had seriously impacted and conditioned the subsequent political development in Pakistan. 

The main purpose of this paper is to assess the significance of the six-point movement and its impact on Bangladeshs struggle for freedom and self-determination. Once the main contents of the six-point plan are summarized, the nature, magnitude, and impact of the six-point movement will be appraised. Aimed at substantiating and validating my own observations about the magnitude and impact of the six-point movement, some scholarly observations will be cited. Finally, some concluding remarks will be made. 

The Six-Point Plan: the Main Elements

Sheikh Mujibur Rhaman, the then General Secretary of the East Pakistan Awami League (EPAL), had personally submitted the six-point program to the subject-matter committee of the All-Party Meeting of the opposition political parties of the then Pakistan in Lahore on February 5, 1966. Based on his 6-Point Formula: Our Right to Live [March 23, 1966], the chief demands and themes of the historic six-point plan are being summarized as follows: 

Point 1: The Constitution should provide for a Federation of Pakistan in its true sense on the basis of [1940] Lahore Resolution, and Parliamentary form of Government with supremacy of legislature directly elected on the basis of universal adult franchise. 

Point 2: The Federal Government of Pakistan shall deal with only two subjects, viz.: defense and Foreign Affairs, and all other residuary subjects shall vest in the federating states. 

Point 3: Two separate but freely convertible currencies for two wings [of Pakistan] should be introduced; or if this is not feasible, there should be one currency for the whole country, but effective constitutional provisions should be introduced to stop the flight of capital from East to West Pakistan. Furthermore, a separate Banking Reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy to be adopted for East Pakistan. 

Point 4: The power of taxation and revenue collection shall be vested in the federating units and the Federal Centre will have no such power. However, the Federation will be entitled to have a share in the state taxes to meet its expenditures. The Consolidated Federal Fund shall come out of a levy of certain percentage of all state taxes. 

Point 5: There should be two separate accounts for the foreign exchange earnings of the two wings with clear assurance that earnings of East Pakistan shall be under the control of East Pakistan Government and that of West Pakistan under the control of West Pakistan Government. And the foreign exchange requirements of the Federal Government [of Pakistan] should be met by the two wings equally or in a ratio to be fixed. The indigenous products should move free of duty between the two wings. The Constitution should empower the units [provinces] to establish trade and commercial relations with, set up trade missions in and enter into agreements with foreign countries. 

Point 6: East Pakistan should have a separate militia or para-military force. 

Immediate Reactions of the Pakistani Political Leaders to the Six-Point Plan

Instead of endorsing Sheikh Mujibs legitimate six-point-based demand for maximum provincial autonomy, the mainstream leaders of the so-called opposition parties for establishing democracy in Pakistan were not even willing to include his proposal in the official agenda of the conference for initiating discussion on the merits or demerits of the of the proposed six-point demands. In fact, no West Pakistani political leaders (not even Nawabzada Nasarullah Khan, the President of the then All-Pakistan Awami League) were willing to lend any support to Sheikh Mujibs clarion call for maximum provincial autonomy based on the proposed six-point program. 

It is also really appalling to recapitulate even after forty long years that the non-Awami League delegates from the then East Pakistan did not endorse the six-point demand. Like their West-Pakistani counterparts, Bengali speaking renegades had also smelled an element of secession or disintegration of Pakistan in the six-point program. In fact, Sheikh Mujibs six-point demand could not be pried out of the subject-matter committee of that so-called All-party conference. Rather, the proposed six-point anchored proposal for maximum provincial autonomy had received frontal attacks from the mainstream ruling elite of Pakistan. The veteran West Pakistani political stalwarts, in conjunction with their cohorts from the then East Pakistan, had started a slanderous propaganda campaign against Sheikh Mujibur Rahman --- - the chief architect and proponent of the six-point charter even though most of those instant criticisms of the proposed six-point program were characterized by blatant falsehoods, conjectures, distortions, and innuendoes. Yet Sheikh Mujibur Rahman refused to be blackmailed or intimidated by those critics. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans Immediate Response to the Critics

In a press conference at Lahore on February 10, 1966, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had pointed out the uselessness and irrelevance of the All-Party Conference. He had clearly articulated that the question of demanding genuine provincial autonomy based on the proposed six-point program should not be misconstrued or dismissed as provincialism. He underscored that the proposed six-point demand was not designed to harm the common people of West Pakistan. 

He had pointed out that the 17-day war between Pakistan and India (1965) made it crystal clear to the East Pakistanis that the defense of East Pakistan couldnt be contingent upon the mercy or courtesy of West Pakistan. He reminded the audience that instead of relying on West Pakistan for its own defense-- a distant land located one thousand miles away, East Pakistan should be made self-sufficient for the purpose of defending itself from external aggression. He also made it abundantly clear that his six-point plan for maximum provincial autonomy reflected the long-standing demands of the people of East Pakistan. 

On his return from Lahore to Dhaka on February 11, 1966, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had provided further clarification on his six-point demands in a press conference. He explained why he had disassociated himself from the All-Party conference in Lahore. He had clearly stated that the delegates from East Pakistan Awami League (EPAL) had rejected not only the proposals passed by the All-Party Conference but also severed all ties with the disgruntled leaders of this so-called conference of the opposition parties. He said that it was not at all possible for him or his party to betray the genuine interests of the aggrieved and deprived people of East Pakistan. He emphasized that the immediate adoption and implementation of his six-point demand will be conducive to foster durable relationship between two provinces of Pakistan. 

In a press conference on February 14, 1966, he reiterated that the the question of autonomy appears to be more important for East Pakistan after the 17-day war between Pakistan and India. The time is ripe for making East Pakistan self-sufficient in all respects. 

Reaction of Ayub Khans Dictatorial Regime to the Six-Point Plan

Immediately after the provincial autonomy plan based on the six-point formula was unveiled by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman at the Lahore conference of opposition political parties in early February, 1966, the military autocracy of the self-declared Field Marshal Ayub Khan was quick to denounce it as a separatist or secessionist move. Aimed at browbeating the dedicated champions of greater provincial autonomy, Ayub Khan, the autocratic President of the then Islamic Republic of Pakistan, had started discrediting both the message and the messenger of the six-point program. 

Appearing in the final session of the Pakistan (Convention) Muslim League in Dhaka on March 21,1966 (of course being fully attired in the army Generals khaki uniform with full display of all of his regalia and medallions), the self-declared President of the then Pakistan had condemned the six-point based plan for maximum provincial autonomy in the harshest possible terms. Characterizing the six-point formula for provincial autonomy as a demand for greater sovereign Bengal, Ayub Khan had claimed that such a plan would put the Bengali Muslims under the permanent domination of the caste Hindus of neighboring West Bengal. 

Comparing the prevailing situation in Pakistan [as of March, 1966] with the volatile situation that had existed in the USA before the outbreak of a prolonged Civil War in early 1860s, the self-serving President of Pakistan also arrogated himself by saying that the nation might have to face a civil war if such were forced upon him by the secessionists. He had even threatened the autonomists and secessionists with dire consequences if they failed to shun the idea of six-point based movement for provincial autonomy. He had also the audacity to underscore that the language of weapons would be ruthlessly employed for exterminating the secessionist elements from Pakistan. 

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the flamboyant Foreign Minister of Pakistan, had openly challenged Sheikh Mujibur Rahman to a public debate on the strengths and weaknesses of the proposed six-point plan at Paltan Maidan in Dhaka. To the chagrin of the Ayub regime, Tajuddin Ahmed, number 2 person in the then Awami League, took up the challenge on behalf of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. Unfortunately, it was Z.A. Bhutto who did not show up for debate! Abdul Monem Khan, the then infamous Governor of East Pakistan, had publicly stated that as long as I remain Governor of this province (East Pakistan), I would see to it that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman remains in jail.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman Launches the Six-Point Movement

In response to such false accusations and vile threats, a fearless Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was quick to respond. In a mammoth public gathering at Paltan Maidan, he thundered: No amount of naked threats can deviate the deprived Bangalees from their demand for provincial autonomy based on their six-point demands. The greatest champion of Bangalees rights for self-determination, along with top leaders of the Awami League, kept on addressing numerous public meetings in the nooks and corners of the then East Pakistan. Without wasting a moment, the entire Awami League and the East Pakistan Students League (EPSL), its student front, were geared toward mobilizing and motivating the general masses in favor of demanding self-government and autonomy based on the six-point program. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had presented not only the bold proposal for maximum provincial autonomy but he also launched a viable mass movement (which he himself led till he was put in jail on May 9, 1966) for popularizing and mobilizing support for the six-point program. After proposing his historic six-point program, he had actually invested all of his energies and resources in disseminating the fundamental message of maximum autonomy for East Pakistan. He started articulating both the rationale and justification for proposing maximum provincial autonomy based on his six-point plan. However, before launching a full-fledged mass movement for realizing his six-point demands, Sheikh Mujib had initiated some strategic intra-party measures. The Council Session of the East Pakistan Awami League (EPAL) met on March 18, 19, 20, 1966, and that council session had also restructured the working Committee of the party. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and Tajuddin Ahmed were unanimously elected the President and General Secretary respectively of the newly revamped Awami League. The proposed six-point program was also unanimously endorsed by that historic council session for realizing maximum provincial autonomy for the then East Pakistan. 

To the dismay of Pakistans ruling coterie, the six-point program had generated a great deal of enthusiasm among the people of the then East Pakistan. As noted by Dr. Talukder Maniruzzaman: To say that this [six-point] programme evoked tremendous enthusiasm among the people of East Bengal would be an understatement. Encouraged by overwhelming popular support, Sheikh Mujib convened a meeting of the EPAL Council [March 18-20, 1966] at which his [Six-Point] programme was unanimously approved and he was elected President of the [Awami League] party. With a phalanx of organizers from the Students League, Sheikh Mujib then launched a vigorous campaign. For about three months (from mid-February to mid-May), the urban centers of East Bengal seemed to be in the grip of a mass revolution, prompting the Central Government to arrest Sheikh Mujib and his chief lieutenants (Tajuddin Ahmed, Khandokar Mustaq Ahmed, Mansoor Ali, Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury, and others) under the [infamous] Defense of Pakistan Rules and put down a complete general strike in Dacca (June 7, 1966) by killing 13 participating strikers [Talukder Maniruzzaman, The Bangladesh Revolution and Its Aftermath, UPL, 1988. P. 25]. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans demand for maximum autonomy based on his six-point formula seems to have shaken the foundation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The six-point plan had exposed the fact that the real intention of Pakistans ruling elite was to strengthen the Punjabi-Mohajir dominated Central Government. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman repeatedly said in several public meetings that that the people of Pakistan had always desired a strong Pakistan, not a strong Central Government. The entire ruling establishment of Pakistan was alarmed, and obviously, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the chief proponent of the six-point program, had become the main target of negative publicity. He had to endure various virulent forms of harassment, intimidation, and fraudulent cases. 

Instead of fairly addressing the legitimate grievances and demands of the neglected eastern province of Pakistan, the power elite took a deliberate decision to suppress the quest for maximum provincial autonomy through the use of colonial types of repressive methods and procedures. The ruling coterie of Pakistan was not at all interested in dealing or negotiating with the Awami League on the issue of provincial autonomy even though Sheikh Mujibur Rahman had publicly stated that he was willing to negotiate his six-point plan with anyone in good faith provided a meaningful autonomy was ensured for East Pakistan. Yet the oligarchy of Pakistan started using repressive tactics to suppress the six-point movement. As noted by Dr. Md. Abdul Wadud Bhuyain, the Ayub regimes policy towards the six-point demand of the AL was one of total suppression. It showed once again that the [Ayub] regime failed to respond to the political demand [Md. Abdul Wadud Bhuyain, Emergence of Bangladesh & Role of Awami League, New Delhi: Vikas Publishing, 1982, p. 104]. 

Indeed, the six-point movement had generated spontaneous mass enthusiasm throughout East Pakistan. The entire nation was galvanized throughout February-March-April-May-June, 1966. In retaliation, the Government had intensified its policy of repression and persecution against Sheikh Mujib and his followers. For example, while Sheikh Mujib was touring various districts in April 1966 to enlist mass support in favor of his six-point program, he was arrested in almost all important places on flimsy and fraudulent charges. Dr. Anisuzzaman, a distinguished literary figure of Bangladesh, has summarized the nature of the repressive measures which Sheikh Mujib had to confront and endure for launching the historic six-point plan at a critical juncture of our history: During that period [from the middle of February through May 9, 1966], there was hardly any place where Sheikh Mujib was not arrested [on false charges] for addressing public meetings. Today in Jessore, tomorrow in Khulna, day after tomorrow in Rajshahi. And on the following days in Sylhet, Mymensingh, and Chittagong. Once he was released on bail in one place, he rushed to another place. He had no time to waste. The only time wasted was in the process of posting bail for his release. Arrested once again. Being released once again, and then immediately move to another place (to address the public meetings). (Freehand translation is mine). [Anisuzzaman, Bangabandhu in the Context of History, in Mreetoonjoyee Mujib (Immortal Mujib), Dhaka; Bangabandhu Parishad, 1995, pp.11-12]. 

Throughout the month of May 1966, the Central Government of Pakistan, of course in full collaboration with Abdul Monem Khan, Ayub Khans handpicked Governor of East Pakistan had enthusiastically cracked down on all senior most leaders of the Awami League. The arrestees under the Defence of Pakistan Rules included, among others, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, Tajuddin Ahmed, Syed Nazrul Islam, Khondokar Moshtaque Ahmed, M. Mansoor Ali, and AHM Kamruzzaman. However, the governmental crackdown on the top leaders of the Awami League couldnt dampen the spirit of the organizers and supporters of the six-point movement. 

It was on June 7, 1966 when a full-blown hartal was observed in support of the six-point program throughout the urban centers of the then East Pakistan. In defiance of various oppressive and repressive measures of the autocratic Government of Pakistan, people from walks of life had lent their spontaneous support to this hartal. Obviously, it was a mass response to governmental repressive measures and state sponsored violence since the middle of February 1966 when the historic six-point movement was launched. . Several dozen men were shot dead during hartal on June 7, 1966. Hundreds of participants of the movement were injured. Thousands of Awami League leaders. (Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the most volatile and articulate champion of maximum autonomy for the then East Pakistan was already put in jail on May 9, 1966) and student workers were put behind bars without any trial. Hulias (warrants of arrest) were issued on hundreds of Awami League workers and student leaders. The Daily Ittefaq, the most popular Bangla newspaper of the then eastern province of Pakistan, was shut down, its press was confiscated, and its editor, Tofazzal Hossain (Manik Mia), was put in jail. Yet the repressive police forces could not halt the march of the six-point anchored provincial autonomy movement. It was significant that the secondary leaders of the Awami League had organized a very successful general strike on June 7, 1966 all over the province. The mass participation in the general strike on June 7 in support of the six-point plan for provincial autonomy was a clear indication of a perceptible shift in the Bengali mood.

Impact and Implications of the Six-Point Movement

The imprisonment of Sheikh Mujib and other top Awami Leaguers in 1966 could not diminish the mass support for the six-point demand. In fact, Pakistans ruling elites policy of suppression of all forms of political freedoms and dissents had miserably failed to halt the march of the six-point movement. Rather, the use of police violence against the organizers and participants of the six-point movement had prompted and motivated the general population of the then East Pakistan to render their full support for the demand of maximum provincial autonomy. Dr. Talukder Maniruzzaman, one of the distinguished political scientists of Bangladesh, has noted the immediate impact of the governmental repressive measures during the six-point movement on Sheikh Mujibs popularity in the following words: As one might have expected, Sheikh Mujibs arrest in 1966 only served to enhance his popularity, to the point where he became the veritable symbol of Bengali nationalism [Talukder Maniruzzaman, The Bangladesh Revolution and Its Aftermath, UPL, 1988, p. 23].

In his seminal assessment of the role of the Awami League in the political development of Pakistan, Dr. M. Rashiduzzaman succinctly summarized the significance and impact of the six-point movement: The impact of the six-point demand of the Awami League was felt far and wide. The central government [of Pakistan] dubbed it as a demand for the separation of the Eastern Wing from the rest of the country, and launched a propaganda campaign, which called for a strong central government and decried the autonomists. On June 7, 1966, there was a province-wide hartal (strike) in East Pakistan sponsored by the Awami League to press the demands embodied in the six-point program. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, along with several lieutenants, were again put into the prison. [Sheikh Mujib was put in jail in early May, 1966]. The government also blamed foreign interests in the agitation led by the six-pointers.. ----- After about a year, several East Pakistani civil servants and military officers were arrested on the charge that they had conspired to separate the East Wing by violent means in collusion with India. Eventually, the so-called Agartala Conspiracy case was initiated against Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and 31 others for alleged high treason. (M. Rashiduzzaman,The Awami League in the Political Development of Pakistan, Asian Survey, Vol. 10, No. 7, JULY, 1970; pp. 574-587]. In the same article, Dr. Rashiduzzaman also observed about the impact of the six-point movement on the 11-point charter of the 1969 student-mass movement: For all practical purposes, the eleven-point student program was an expanded version of the Awami Leagues six- point demand for autonomy. 

It is evident from the preceding quotations that the six-point movement had a far reaching effects on the subsequent political development in the then Pakistan. It is widely acknowledged that the six point movement was a catalyst to the fomenting of a sustainable movement against President Ayub Khan and his regime in early 1969. In fact, the origins of both the Agartala Conspiracy Case and the anti-Ayub student-mass movement in 1969 can be traced back to the six-point movement. Aimed at destroying Bangalees quest for full-blown autonomy and self-determination once and for all, a vile conspiracy was hatched out against Mujibur Rahman, the most articulate champion of greater provincial autonomy. At the behest of Ayub Khan, the Punjabi-Muhajir dominated Central Government of Pakistan had implicated Sheikh Mujibur Rahman in the fraudulent Agartala Conspiracy Case. The real agenda of Pakistans ruling elite was to hang him as a traitor. In other words, the Government of Pakistan wanted to eliminate Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the ardent defender of the legitimate rights of his people, for maintaining a status quo in the form of colonial rule in East Pakistan. However, an anti-Ayub student-mass movement in late 1968 and early 1969 led to the withdrawal of the so-called Agartala Conspiracy case and the unconditional release of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from imprisonment. 

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was at best regarded as the top leader of the Awami League when he had launched the six-point movement in early 1966. He was not yet regarded as the undisputed leader of all Bengali speaking people of the then East Pakistan. Nor was he called Bangabandhu in 1966. He was not the only political leader of the then East Pakistan who had championed the cause of full provincial autonomy. In fact, there were other top political leaders even within his party with impressive credentials and tested commitment to the pursuit of full autonomy for East Pakistan. There were also more senior political leaders in other political parties, including Maulana Bhasani, who were quite vocal for greater provincial autonomy for East Pakistan. Being disgusted with the colonial brand of exploitation of East Pakistan by West Pakistani ruling coterie, Maulana Bhasani had uttered goodbye to West Pakistan more than once --- at least a decade earlier than the historic six-point movement. In fact, Maulana Bhasani was never willing to compromise on the issue of full provincial autonomy for the then East Pakistan. 

Yet Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans fearlessness and relentlessness gave birth to the six-point movement for realizing full provincial autonomy in the early months of 1966. There is no doubt that his relentlessness in starting and sustaining a pragmatic Bengali nationalistic movement that was deliberately geared toward achieving maximum autonomy had clearly distinguished him from other contemporary champions of provincial autonomy. His fearlessness also made him the most volatile champion of full provincial autonomy. Only a courageous leader of Sheikh Mujibur Rahmans stature could come up with the six-point plan for accruing full autonomy for East Pakistan at a time when Ayub Khans brute regime was at its pinnacle after consolidating its grip over the entire power structure of the country. 

The six-point movement had direct bearing on the following momentous events: the making of the infamous Agartala conspiracy case against Shekh Mujib, the volatile student-mass movement of 1969, the withdrawal of the concocted Agartala conspiracy case and the unconditional release of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from imprisonment on February 22, 1969, the removal of the infamous provincial Governor Monaem Khan, the sudden collapse of Ayub Khans dictatorship and the rise of Yahya Khans diabolical regime, the General Elections in 1970 on the basis of adult franchise, the landslide victory of the Awami League in the general elections and the spectacular rise of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman as the sole spokesperson of the Bengali speaking people of the then Pakistan, the nine-month long liberation war in 1971, and finally the emergence of Bangladesh as an independent nation-state on December 16, 1971. Doubtless, these tumultuous events were milestones in the history of Bangladeshs struggle for freedom and independence. Notwithstanding three decades of rampant distortions of Bangladeshs political history, it is fair to suggest that the six-point movement was the precursor of these momentous events, and the name of the common thread that had firmly connected these milestones was Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. 

Concluding Remarks

There is no doubt that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman would have remained a top Awami League leader even in the absence of a bold provincial autonomy plan in the form of the six-point program. Yet had there been no six-point movement in 1966, there is every doubt if the Agartala Conspiracy Case would have been hatched out against him at that particular time. Had there been no Agartala Conspiracy Case, the student-mass movement of 1969 would not have exclusively focused on his unconditional release from imprisonment. Thus the six-point movement, the Agartala conspiracy case, and the 1969 student-mass movement had provided the much-needed context and momentum for the his emergence as Bangabandhu (Friend of Bengal) Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. From that juncture of our history, he did not have to look backward. The whopping majority of Bengali speaking people of the then East Pakistan had vested their full trust in their Bangabandhu in the general elections of 1970. Therefore, his spectacular success in the historic general elections of 1970 and his emergence as the legitimate sole spokesperson and undisputed leader of his people owe a great deal to his success in the historic six-point movement in 1966. 

The six-point plan had also reflected the legitimate grievances and genuine demands of the people of the then East Pakistan. There is little wonder why the historic six-point movement had garnered so much spontaneous mass support throughout the province. The timing, first for presenting, and then starting a sustainable Bengali nationalist movement for realizing the professed goals of six-point demand was crucially important. The economic and political demands, as stipulated and enumerated under the six-point program, were the frontal assault on the foundation of Pakistans colonial exploitation and authoritarian modes of governance. 

Dr. M. Waheeduzzaman (Manik) writes from Clarksville, Tennessee, USA where he is a Professor and the Chair of the Department of Public Management at Austin Peay State University. His e-mail address is mwzaman@aol.com or zamanw@apsu.edu

http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate...000000000111223


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## Tiki Tam Tam

He wanted unity, that is when he was not seeing pink elephants, and sadly, those moments were not there at all!

I am glad that you did not claim, with your way out logic, that Yahyah was not a womaniser or a boozer!


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## roadrunner

^^ No, he didn't want unity. He wanted unity only in name, much like what some people on here claim. To have two independent governments, different economies, different currencies is not unifying a country. It's a ludicrous suggestion that wouldn't be accepted by any modern government because it would weaken a country. His vision of Pakistan was only a federation in name.


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## akzaman

*LEGAL FRAMEWORK ORDER 1970*

The Legal Framework Order was issued as President's Order No. 2 of 1970 by the President
and Chief Martial Administrator, General A. M. Yahya Khan on March 30, 1970 in
Rawalpindi. Although the Order mainly dealt with election procedures, it can still be counted as a constitutional landmark because it was in this order that the principle of adult franchise was reintroduced to promote direct election of legislature and executive. 

Also, the Order provided some basic principles for the future constitution of the country. WHEREAS in his first address to the nation on the 26th March, 1969, the President and Chief Martial Law Administrator pledged himself to strive to restore democratic institutions in the country;AND WHEREAS in his address to the nation on the 28th November, 1969, he reaffirmed that pledge and announced that polling for a general election to a National Assembly of Pakistan will commence on the 5th October, 1970;
AND WHEREAS he has since decided that polling for elections to the Provincial Assemblies
shall commence not later than the 22nd October, 1970; AND WHEREAS provision has already been made by the Electoral Rolls Order, 1969, for the preparation of electoral rolls for the purpose of election of representatives of the people on the basis of adult franchise
AND WHEREAS it is necessary to provide for the constitution of a National Assembly of
Pakistan for the purpose of making provision as to the Constitution of Pakistan in accordance with this Order and a Provincial Assembly for each Province; NOW, THEREFORE, in pursuance of the Proclamation of the 25th day of March, 1969, and in exercise of all powers enabling him in that behalf, the President and Chief Martial Law Administrator is pleased to make the following order: 

Short Title
Article 1
(1) This Order may be called the Legal Framework Order, 1970.
(2) It shall come into force on such date as the President may, by notification in the officialGazette, appoint in this behalf.

To override other laws

Article 2
This order shall have effect notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in the
Provisional Constitution Order, the Constitution of 1962 of the Islamic Republic of Pakistanor any other law for the time being in force.

Definitions

Article 3
(1) In this order unless there is anything repugnant in the subject or context.
(i) "Assembly" means the National Assembly of Pakistan or a Provincial Assembly for a
Province provided for in this Order;
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(ii) "Commission" means the Election Commission constituted under Article;
(lit) "Commissioner" means the Chief Election Commissioner appointed or deemed to be
appointed under the Electoral Rolls Older, 1969 (P. 0. No. 6 of 1969);
(iv) "electoral roll" means the electoral roll prepared under the Electoral Rolls Order, 1969,(P.O. No. 6 of 1969);

(v) "member" means member of an Assembly.
(vi) "Speaker" means the Speaker of the National Assembly; and
(vii) "Centrally Administered Tribal Areas" has the same meaning as in the Province of WestPakistan (Dissolution) Order, 1970.

(2) In relation to the territories included at the commencement of this Order in the Province of West Pakistan, references to a Province and a Provincial Assembly shall be construed as references respectively to a new Province provided for in the Province of West Pakistan (Dissolution) Order, 1970, and the Provincial Assembly for such Province.
Composition of National AssemblyArticle 4 
(1) There shall be a National Assembly of Pakistan consisting of three hundred and thirteen members of -whom three hundred shall be elected to fill general seats and thirteen to fill seats reserved for women.

(2) In conformity with the population figures appearing in the Census of 1961, the number of seats in National Assembly shall be distributed amongst the Provinces and the Centrally Administered Tribal Areas, as set out in Schedule I.

(3) Clause (1) shall not be construed as preventing a woman from being elected to a general seat.

Provincial Assemblies

Article 5
(1) There shall be a Provincial Assembly for each Province consisting of the number of
members elected to fill general seats and to fill seats reserved for women, as set out in
Schedule II in relation to such Province.

(2) Clause (1) shall not be construed as preventing a woman from being elected to a general seat.

Principle of election
Article 6

(1) Except as provided in clause (2), the members shall be elected to the general seats from territorial constituencies by direct election on the basis of adult franchise in accordance with law.

(2) The President may, by regulation, make separate provision for election of members from the Centrally Administered Tribal Areas.

(3) As soon as practicable after the general election of members of the National Assembly, the members from a Province for the seats reserved for women in that Assembly shall be elected by persons elected to the general seats from that Province in accordance with law.
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(4) The members for scats reserved for women in a Provincial Assembly shall be elected by
persons elected to the general seats in that Assembly in accordance with law.
Casual vacancy Article 7

Where a seat in the National Assembly has become vacant, an election to fill the vacancy
shall be held within three weeks from the occurrence of the vacancy.
Election Commission

Article 8
For the purposes of election of the members of an Assembly and matters connected
therewith, the President shall constitute an Election Commission consisting of the following members namelya) the Commissioner, who shall be the Chairman of the Commission;and (b) two other members, each being a person who is a permanent Judge of a High Court.

Qualifications and disqualifications.

Article 9
(1) A person shall, subject to the provisions of Clause (2), be qualified to be elected as, and to be, a member if-

(a) he is citizen of Pakistan;
(b) he has attained the age of twenty-five years;and
© his name appears on the electoral roll for any constituency in the Province or Centrally

Administered Tribal Areas from which he seeks election.
(2) A person shall be disqualified from beings-elected as, and from being, a member if-
(a) he is of unsound mind and stands so declared by a competent court;or
(b) he is an undischarged insolvent unless a period of ten years has elapsed since his being

adjudged as insolvent;or

© he has been, on conviction for any offence, sentenced to transportation for any term or to imprisonment for a term of not less than two years, unless a period of five years, or such less period as the President may allow in any particular case, has elapsed since his release;or (d) he has been a member of the President's Council of Ministers at any time following the 1st August, 1969 unless a period of two years or such less period as the President may allow in any particular case, has elapsed since he ceased to be a Minister;or (e) he holds office in the service of Pakistan other than an office which if not a wholetime office remunerated either by salary or by fee;or 

(f) he has been dismissed for misconduct from the service of Pakistan, unless a period of five years, or such less period as the President may allow in any particular case, has elapsed sincehis dismissal;or 
(g) such person is the spouse of a person in the service of Pakistan;or
(h) he, whether by himself or by any person or body of persons in trust for him or for his benefit or on his account or as a member of a Hindu undivided family, has any share or interest in a contract not being a contract between a co-operative society and Government, for the supply of goods to, or for the execution of any contract or the performance of any services undertaken by Government:

Provided that the disqualification under sub-clause, (h) shall not apply to a person -
(i) where the share or interest in the contract devolves on him by inheritance or succession oras a legatee, executor or administrator, until the expiration of six months after it has so devolved on him or such longer period as the President may, in any particular case, allow; or (ii) where the contract has been entered into by or ' on behalf of a public company as defined in the Companies Act, 1913 (VII of 1913), of which he is a share-holder but is neither a director holding an office of profit under the company nor a managing agent;or (iii) where he is a member of a Hindu undivided family and the contract has been entered into by any other member of that family in the course of carrying on a separate business in which he has no share or interest.

(3) For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that a Judge of the Supreme Court or a High Court, the Comptroller and Auditor General of Pakistan, the Attorney General of
Pakistan and an Advocate General of a Province are persons holding offices in the service of Pakistan.

(4) If any question arises whether a member has after his election, become subject to any
disqualification the Commissioner shall place the question before the Election Commission
and, if the opinion of the Commission be that the member has become so subject, his seat
shall become vacant.

Bar against candidature
Article 10
(1) No person shall at the same time be a member of more than one Assembly or a member of
the same Assembly for more than one constituency.

(2) Nothing in clause (1) shall prevent a person from being at the same time a candidate for election from | two or more constituencies, but if a person has been elected as a member for two or more constituencies and does not within fifteen days of the notification of his election by the constituency by which he has been elected last, make a declaration in writing under his hand addressed to the Commissioner specifying the constituency which he wishes to represent, all his seats shall become vacant, but so long as he is a member for two or more constituencies he shall not sit or vote in an Assembly.

Resignation
Article 11

(1) A member may resign his seat by notice in writing under his hand addressed to the
Speaker.

(2) If a member is absent from the Assembly without leave of the Speaker for fifteen
consecutive sitting days, his seat shall become vacant.

(3) If a member fails to take and subscribe an oath in accordance with Article 12 within a
period of seven days from the date of the first meeting of the Assembly after | his election, his

seat shall become vacant :
5
Provided that the Speaker or, if the Speaker has not been elected, the Commissioner, may,
before the expiration of the said period, for good cause shown, extend the period.
Article 12

A person elected as a member of an Assembly shall, before entering upon the office, take and subscribe, before a person presiding at a meeting of the Assembly, an oath or affirmation in the following form, namely :-

"I... do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Pakistan and that I will discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter honestly, to the best of my ability, faithfully in accordance with the provisions of the Legal Framework Order, 1970, the law and rules of the Assembly set out in that Order, and always in the interest of the solidarity, integrity, well-being and prosperity of Pakistan." 

Date of polling

Article 13
Polling for election to the National Assembly shall commence on the 5th October, 1970 and
polling for election to the Provincial Assemblies shall commence on a date not later than the

22nd October, 1970.
Summoning of Assembly

Article 14
(i) After the close of the general election of members of the National Assembly, the President shall, for the purpose of framing a Constitution for Pakistan, summon the National Assembly to meet on such day and at such time and place as he may think fit;and the National

Assembly so summoned shall stand constituted on the day of its first meeting:
Provided that nothing in this clause shall be construed as preventing the President from
summoning the National Assembly on the ground that all the seats of the members have not
been filled.

(2) After meeting as convened under clause (1), the National Assembly shall meet at such
times and places as the Speaker may decide.

(3) The National Assembly shall, subject to reasonable adjournments, meet from day to day
to transact its business.

Article 15
The President may address the National Assembly and send a message or messages to the
Assembly.
6

Speaker and Deputy Speaker
Article 16
(1) The National Assembly shall, as soon as may be, elect two of its members to be
respectively the Speaker and Deputy Speaker thereof and shall, so often as the office of
Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant, elect another member to be the Speaker, or, as
the case may be. Deputy Speaker.

(2) Until the Speaker and Deputy Speaker are elected, the Commissioner shall preside at the
meetings of the National Assembly and perform the functions of Speaker.
(3) Where the office of the Speaker is vacant, the Deputy Speaker, or, if the office of the

Deputy Speaker is also vacant, the Commissioner, shall perform the functions of Speaker.

(4) During the absence of the Speaker from any meeting of the National Assembly, the
Deputy Speaker or if the Deputy Speaker is also absent, such member, as may be determined
by the rules of procedure of the Assembly, shall perform the functions of Speaker.

(5) A member holding office as Speaker or Deputy Speaker shall cease to hold that office-
(a) if he ceases to be a member of the National Assembly;

(b) if he resigns his office by writing under his hand addressed to the President;or
© if a resolution expressing want of confidence in him is moved in the Assembly after notless than fourteen days' notice of the intention to move it and passed by the votes of not less than two-thirds of the total number of members of the National Assembly.
Quorum and Rules of Procedure

Article 17

(1) If, at any time during a meeting of the National Assembly, the attention of the personpresiding at the meeting is drawn to the fact that the number of persons present is less thanone hundred, the person presiding shall either suspend the meeting until the number of members present is not less than one hundred or adjourn the meeting.

(2) The procedure of the National Assembly shall be regulated by the rules of procedure set out in Schedule III; in particular the National Assembly shall decide how a decision relating to the Constitution Bill is to be taken.

(3) The National Assembly may act notwithstanding any vacancy in the seat of a member and
no proceedings in the Assembly shall be invalid by reason that some members whose election is subsequently held to have been void or who, after election had incurred a disqualification for membership voted or otherwise took part in the proceedings.

Privileges, etc
Article 18

(1) The validity of any proceeding? in the National Assembly shall not be called in question
in any court.

(2) A member or a person entitled to speak in the National Assembly shall not be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in the Assembly or in any committee thereof.

7
(3) The exercise by an officer of the National Assembly of the powers vested in him for the regulation of procedure, the conduct of business or the maintenance of order, in or in relation to any proceeding in the Assembly shall not be subject to the jurisdiction of any court.

(4) A person shall not be liable to any proceedings in any court in respect of the publication by, or under the authority of the National Assembly of any report, paper, vote or proceedings.

(5) No process issued by a court or other authority shall, except with the leave of the Speaker,be served or executed within the precincts of the place where a meeting of the National Assembly or of any Committee thereof is being held.

Allowances of members

Article 19
The Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and the other members shall be entitled to such allowances and privileges as the President may, by order, prescribe.

Fundamental Principles of the Constitution
Article 20
The Constitution shall be so framed as to embody the following fundamental principles:-
(1) Pakistan shall be a federal republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in which the provinces and other territories which are now and may hereinafter be included in Pakistan shall be so united in a federation that the independence, the territorial integrity and the national solidarity of Pakistan are ensured and that the unity of the federation in not in any manner impaired.

(2) (a) Islamic ideology which is the basis for the creation of Pakistan shall be preserved;and (b) the Head of the State shall be a Muslim.

(3) (a) Adherence to fundamental principles of democracy shall be ensured by providing-
direct and free periodical elections to the federal and the provincial legislatures on the basis of population and adult franchise;(b) the Fundamental Rights of the citizens shall be laid down and guaranteed;© the independence of the judiciary in the matter of dispensation of justice and enforcement of the fundamental rights shall be secured.

(4) All powers including legislative, administrative and financial, shall be so distributed between the Federal Government and the Provinces that the Provinces shall have maximum autonomy, that is to say maximum legislative, administrative and financial powers but the Federal Government shall also have adequate powers including legislative, administrative and financial powers, to discharge its responsibilities in relation to external and internal affairs and to preserve the independence and territorial integrity of the country.

(5) It shall be ensured that-
(a) the people of all areas in Pakistan shall be enabled to participate fully in all forms of
national activities;and
(b) within a specified period, economic and all other disparities between the Provinces and between different areas in a Province are removed by the adoption of statutory and other measures.

8

Preamble of the Constitution
Article 21
The Constitution shall contain, in its preamble, an affirmation that-
(1) the Muslims of Pakistan shall be enabled, individually and collectively, to order their lives in accordance with the teachings of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah; and (2) the minorities shall be enabled to profess and practise their religions freely and to enjoy all rights, privileges and protection due to them as citizens of Pakistan.

Directive Principles
Article 22
The Constitution shall set out directive principles of State Policy by which the State shall beguided in the matter of-

(1) promoting Islamic way of life;

(2) observance of Islamic moral standards;


(3) providing facilities for the teaching of Holy Quran and Islamiat to the Muslims of
Pakistan;and

(4) enjoining that no law repugnant to the teachings and requirements of Islam, as set out inthe Holy Quran and Sunnah, is made.

Assemblies to be first legislatures
Article 23
The Constitution shall provide that-
(1) the National Assembly, constituted under this Order, shall-
(a) be the first legislature of the Federation for the full term if the legislature of the Federation consists of one House, and (b) be the first Lower House of the legislature of the Federation for the full term if thelegislature of the Federation consists of two Houses.

(2) The Provincial Assemblies elected in accordance with this Order shall be the first
legislatures of the respective Provinces for the full term.Time for framing Constitution

Article 24
The National Assembly shall frame the Constitution in the form of a Bill to be called the
Constitution Bill within a period of one hundred and twenty days from the date of its firstmeeting and on its failure to do so shall stand dissolved.

Authentication

Article 25
The Constitution Bill, as passed by the National Assembly, shall be presented to the President
for authentication. The National Assembly shall stand dissolved in the event that
authentication is refused.9

Article 26
(1) Save as provided in this Order for the purpose of framing a constitution for Pakistan, the National Assembly shall not meet in that capacity, until the Constitution Bill passed by thatAssembly and authenticated by the President, has come into force.
(2) A Provincial Assembly shall not be summoned to meet until after the Constitution Bill
passed by the National Assembly has been authenticated by the President, and has come intoforce.

Interpretation of Order etc

Article 27
(1) Any question or doubt as to the interpretation of any provision of this Order shall be resolved by a decision of the President, and such decision shall be final and not liable to be questioned in any Court.(2) The President and not the National Assembly shall have the power to make any
amendment in this Order.

Reaction to LFO

In the then East Pakistan the LFO received a mixed response. While the parties with mass
following such as Awami League, and both factions of National Awami Party led Abdul
Hamid Khan Bhashani and Muzaffar Ahmed. Given that Awami League had the biggest mass
following Sheikh Mujib wanted to play his cards as sated by Siddiq Salik:
It was the first anniversary of the second martial law in Pakistan. Sheikh Mujibur
Rahman was on his way to a rural town in East Pakistan to address an election rally.


On the back seat of his rattling car sat with him a non-Bengali journalist who covered
his election tours. He provoked Mujib on some current topic and quietly switched on his
cassette tape recorder. Later he entertained his friends with his exclusive possession. 

He also played it to me. Mujibs rhetorical voice was clearly intelligible. He was saying:Somehow, Ayub Khan has pitched me to a height of popularity where nobody can so
no to what I want. Even Yahya Khan cannot refuse my demands.

What were his demands? A clue was provided another tape prepared by Yahya Khans
intelligence agencies. 

The subject was the Legal Framework Order (LFO) issued by the Government on 30 March 1970. Practically it was an outline of constitution which denied a free hand to Mujib to implement his famous Six Points. He confined his views on LFO to his senior colleagues without realizing that these words are being taped for Yahyas consumption. On the recording, Mujib said: My aim is to establish Bangla Desh. I shall LFO into pieces as soon as the elections are over. 

Who could challenge me once the elections are over? When it was played to Yahya Khan, he said, I will fix him if he betrays me. (Siddiq Salik, Witness to Surrender, Dhaka: University Press Limited, 1997, p.1 and G.W. Chowdhury , Last Days of United Pakistan, London: C. Hurst & Co., 1974, p.98).

Fwd By Dr Mohammad Alauddin
Senior Lecturer in Economics
School of Economics
The University of Queensland
email: m.alauddin@economics.uq.edu.au
Editor, Australasian Journal of Economics Education (AJEE)
http://www.uq.edu.au/economics/ajee
(Source: http://pakistanspace.tripod.com/archives/70lfo.htm)


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## roadrunner

Doing my work for me. 



> Article 20
> The Constitution shall be so framed as to embody the following fundamental principles:-
> (1) Pakistan shall be a federal republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in which the provinces and other territories which are now and may hereinafter be included in Pakistan shall be so united in a federation that the independence, the territorial integrity and the national solidarity of Pakistan are ensured and that the *unity of the federation in not in any manner impaired. *



And there we have it. Would this 'point' of Mujib have impaired the economic unity of the federation?  


Furthermore, a separate banking reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy be adopted for East Pakistan.


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## akzaman

*The Legal Frame-Work Order- A discussion on the liberation war of Bangladesh.*

The (Legal Frame-Work Order (LFO) is often skipped by many individuals when any discussion comes on the liberation war of Bangladesh. It is a mystery why this important promulgation is excluded from criticism or discussion. Sometimes LFO is not understood and, thus, ignored often by the participants or presenters. It was mentioned first time during Ayub Khan as he emerged as the Military ruler as Prime Minister of Pakistan on October 7, 1958. He captured the office of the President on October 27, 1958 by ousting Iskander Mirza. The LFO did not become much familiar as Ayub concentrated to give a hotchpotch constitution for Pakistan. Thus, hardly anyone remembers about LFO.

The LFO appeared again when Yahya Khan came to the power on March 25, 1969 as Chief Martial Law Administrator (CMLA). The political activities were banned outright issuing at least two dozens Martial Law regulations on the same night following last Radio Broadcast of Ayub Khan at 8:15 p.m. The next day Yahya Khan appeared on the Radio and attempted to elaborate on the purpose of his arrival. He asserted to go back to the barrack by giving power to the people elected representatives. Yahya noted firmly to return one months tuition fee for the students as they suffered continuity of attending educational institutions. Somehow his address was convincing following a series of unrest events for over three months. Yahya Khan took the office of the President on April 1, 1969. Until then there was no President of the country as was pointed out by several foreign Embassies in Islamabad. 

Yahya Khan tried to sell CMLA title in lieu of the President. He argued whether CMLA can replace the title of the President. Since CMLA does not give a smell of the head of the state, Yahya agreed to capture President title although he already occupied Presidents office. Before the end of May 1969 every student in the then Eastern Pakistan got back one months tuition fee. Many students use it as pocket money and became very happy. In fact, this money was subsidized by the Military Administration.

Yahya Khan began delivering Radio speeches like Ayub Khan. He introduced quarterly basis while Ayub adopted monthly basis. In the next Radio Broadcast on June 28, 1969 Yahya Khan declared to open political activities beginning January 1, 1970. He noted one person one vote for the upcoming election scheduling on October 5, 1970. Yahya asserted that the election would be for Parliamentary Democracy in the country. Again he asserted to go back to the barrack at the earliest. 

Thus, each of the Radio addresses of Yahya Khan brought some aspiration to the people. Yahya added facilities to the students. One attractive feature was cut priced Cinema Hall ticket for viewing movies. Many students were very happy with this facility for the first time in Pakistan. Of curse, Yahya noted about the use of Institutional Identity Card to enjoy such facilities. 

Another attractive feature using the same Identity Card was affirmed for the transportation fare within the city transit systems. This was actually an extension to the existing train or air fares for long range journey. Overall students got added facilities to enjoy such facilities. The private transport companies issued special fixed priced (concession) ticket which was subsidized by the Military Administration. The Cinema Hall authorities deducted the usual tax amount and kept the rest maintenance and entrance fees. Somehow the administration began losing tax money.

Yahya noted about the disparity between the two wings of Pakistan in the same broadcast on June 28, 1969. He partly blamed previous administration for causing disparity. Yahya assured that he would reduce disparity between the two wings as much as possible in a short period of time. As an immediate action item he declared to double the recruiting process in the Army. Similar action was recommended for the central (federal) jobs. Further, he declared ordering to capture corrupt officers or officials by taking account of personal properties on October 7, 1958 and on March 25, 1969. Obvious difference having inconsistency can give substantial evidence for corrupt practices in job. By October 1969 a list of 303 officers were published as they were all sacked from the job because of financially corrupt practices.

In the same broadcast Yahya dismantled one unit of Western Pakistan that Ayub envisioned with Basic Democracy in 1962. Thus, Punjab, Sindh, Baluchistan, and Sarhad (North-West Frontier) came back in the map of Pakistan. Since these names appeared again in the map but the mystery remains with the name of the Eastern wing. Ayub installed two names for two wings of Pakistan which was pretty easy to note based on their location on the global map. Yahya remained silent about reviving Eastern Bengal for Eastern Pakistan as a province. This silence did not cause problem with the sentiment of the people of the then Eastern Pakistan concerning the name of the Province. 

Overall, Yahya Khan became a popular figure to the students and common mass. He had no problem in walking nearly unguarded almost every corner of Pakistan. His actions were very generous and very practical though he had no public contact like Ayub Khan. It is mystery that both Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan never came to the contact of common people. They preferred to announce any thing from the palace and use Radio or TV. Their public lectures were very rare and made occasional with proper reason.

Almost immediately after coming to the office of the President, Yahya sent S. M. Ahsam (Vice Admiral) as Governor of the then Eastern Pakistan. Ahsan earned popularity very rapidly and began to enjoy often public contact. Thus, people were very happy besides seeing control of commodity pricing. Nevertheless, lifestyle became very healthy with firm economy. The fortune became glorious as the currency became very strong against the Indian currency as Pakistan did not devalue Rupee following devaluation of the British Sterling Pound. Thus, the new conversion rate became 11.43 instead of perennial 13.33 for each British Sterling Pound. But this happened in early 1970.

During September 28, 1969 Radio Broadcast Yahya affirmed about the election process. He defined the size of the Parliament with 300 elected Members having proper ratios for each Province of Pakistan. He asserted population basis seats in the Parliament including 13 reserved seats. In this way East Pakistan had 162 seats and West Pakistan had 138 seats with 7 female seats for East Pakistan and 6 female seats for West Pakistan. 

Yhaya also announced the appointment of Justice Abdus Sattar as the Chief Election Commissioner. Later Sattar became elected President of Bangladesh on November 15, 1981. Yahya also asserted for the new constitutional map of Pakistan. Again, the scheduled date for election was affirmed by Yahya Khan. He assured full fledged political activities toward election campaign by political parties. 

This time Yahya announced about the LFO and its purpose. He outlined the purpose and pointed toward each political party participating in the election to obey the content of LFO. He asked each party leader to sign it and follow the content therein to frame the constitution of Pakistan. Yahya clearly spelled out 120 days limit if the Parliament session once starts for framing the constitution. Yahya firmly asserted if the Parliament does not come to a conclusive decision on the constitution of the country within 120 days of seating inside the National Assembly then the entire Parliament automatically be declared as abrogated. This situation recalled for continued Military Administration until next decision for transfer of power is devised. Yahya mentioned this situation would be the worst scenario.

In order to reach a decision on framing the constitution Yahya mentioned about allowing sufficient time of discussion among the elected representatives (Parliament Members) outside the parliament. Yahyas condition was clear on framing the constitution. The loop-hole that Yahya created was with the LFO. The meaning of LFO was understood by the political parties. It was made public at a later date on March 30, 1970 for comprehension. General mass never paid attention to this document as it had nothing to do with the daily life of a person within Pakistan. Since political activities were not allowed at that time, thus, there was no remark about LFO published by the political parties. Yahyas outline of LFO was Greek until it was available as a document.

The LFO defines as how the political parties should behave during the election and following the election results. It also defined as how the Parliament would proceed with the constitution of Pakistan. Further LFO indicated as how the Prime Minister and the President would be determined for the country. Overall, it gave a mechanism of the ruling machinery.

Yahya Khan was not certain about the election result of the Eastern wing. Meanwhile Mujib began political activities with his massive public gathering in Dacca on the New Years Day. He was a hero during February-March 1969 after he was released from the Agartola Conspiracy Case on February 22, 1969. Tofael Ahmed orchestrated Mujib with a title BONGOBONDHU. Within days Mujib became a new personality while he was much unfamiliar in entire the then East Pakistan. This time Mujib became well known as his coverage in Radio, TV as well as newspapers became broad on a daily basis. He outnumbered many provincial leaders almost immediately with his increasing popularity.

Justice A. R. Cornelius, a Catholic Christian from Punjab, engineered the content of the LFO though he does not come to the forefront. He was bottle partner of Yahya Khan and served nicely under Ayub Khan as the Supreme Court Chief Justice. Both Yahya and Cornelius became friends to a level that Cornelius protected the interest of Yahya as the President of Pakistan. The LFO documented no overwhelming majority for a single Province by any political party. At least two Provinces were necessary exceeding 157 seats to make absolute majority in the Parliament out of 313 seats. In this way a single Province, like the then East Pakistan, cannot become the majority party in the Parliament if a single party captures all the 169 seats of East Pakistan. This is the tricky part of LFO which Mujib and his followers knew very well.

Further in the LFO national integrity, solidarity, and security of Pakistan were discussed. Every political party and their leaders must have solid faith in these items as part of the requirements. Every party must contribute to framing the constitution of Pakistan. By agreeing all the issues every political leader had to sign the document before competing in the election. In other words, these were the summary of the outlines of LFO. Kamal Hossain was Mujibs advisor on the content of the LFO. Both Kamal and Mujib agreed to go for it to participate in the election.

The scheduled election date for October 5, 1970 was changed to a new date to December 7, 1970 sometime around August 15, 1970. Yahya came to see the flood situation in Dacca around August 12, 1970. First he went to the coastal areas and many other inundated parts of the then Eastern Pakistan. On August 13, 1970 he visited entire Dacca city from morning to sunset by driving an open Military Jeep putting on gumboot and regular Military uniform. He left the Presidential vehicle empty and driven by the driver only. The open Jeep was driven by Yahya with a single, presumably, bodyguard. This Jeep allowed him to go about 1-ft. deep water. Most of the time Yahya walked in the knee-deep or more-deep dirty water containing city waste from sewerage. 

Knowing such ****** water Yahya walked all the camps primarily located in the local schools and temporary shelters. He distributed clothes, blankets, wheat, rice, and other ready-made food items. Yahya became a popular figure outright to the poor people. Every one chanted Yahya Zindabad. Days later a cross section of the same people chanted anti Yahya slogan when Mujib launched campaign meetings at various parts of Dacca city including other districts that were inundated with flood water. It was approximated that nearly 30,000 square miles area of the then East Pakistan was flooded in the 1970 flood. Mujib watched chanting slogans against Yahya this way by his party activists.

On August 15th 1970 Yahya returned to Islamabad and almost immediately he decided to shift the election date which was strongly suggested by many political parties including Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Mia Momtaj Daultana, Khan Abdul Qaiyum Khan, Khan Wali Khan, and many others from the then West Pakistan beside several East Pakistani political parties. The prime reason was flood in the then East Pakistan which needs time to recover from this natural disaster. Bhashani was against voting as he proclaimed VOTER AAGEY VAAT CHAAI (want food before election). Therefore, Bhashani suggested for complete abandonment of the election again by getting the chance of flooding.

It was Mujib who never recognized the problems of flooding in the then Eastern Pakistan. He wanted the election to be conducted by hook or by crook at the earliest possible time. Many interpreters seeing Mujibs adamant attitude commented that Mujib may lose popularity as time runs out. This is because Mujib may become untrustworthy to the people if too long time is taken to conduct election. That is why Mujib was very restless and never acknowledge about flooding as a severe problem. He was the person who told flood is not an issue of changing the date for election but a great conspiracy is being hatched by other leaders of Pakistan who do not like his party to secure peoples mandate to get power in the center (Islamabad). 

To note here Yahya was warned about the flooding early July 1970 by several political parties of the then East Pakistan. As October 5 1970 was nearing flood turned severe in the middle of August 1970. Flood water took another three weeks to subside until early September 1970. People began to go back to their home shortly thereafter. Many of them found no food at home, no job at all, damaged house, etc. It took time for them to settle down indeed.

There was another reason to choose December 7 1970 as the potential date for election as Yahya cited. He mentioned about the fasting month of Ramadan which began on November 02, 1970. Yahya did not favor voting during this holy month as most people will have shorter working days. Almost all political parties favored the justification except for Mujib. He expressed unhappiness and told Pakistani vested interest group is taking refuge of the religion. The again in order to enjoy hardcore Muslims votes he compromised that Pakistani vested interest group is anti-people elements. They do not understand peoples voting right and so on. All these explanations from Mujib had no ground considering logical reasons.

Shortly after this prolonged natural disaster, a terrible cyclone came in the coastal areas on the night of November 12, 1970. On that night Yahya was in China. He came back on November 14, 1970 at Dacca Airport to see the devastation as he was informed about it. Instead of taking a helicopter he briefly met Ahsan at the VIP room and took another aircraft to reach Islamabad. On the same night he reached Islamabad and the news media announced that Yahya was urgently called for events in the capital city which became priority. 

In fact, Yahya was about to be toppled by Hamid Khan. He called Yahya to get certain things done for the interest of the Army which Yahya agreed to do. This situation saved Yahya from a possible overthrow. Of course, Chief of Staff Hamid Khan was sensible enough to wait on the disputed issue within the Army. No one knows exactly what the issue with Hamid Khan was. In the job Hamid Khan was senior to Yahya but Ayub made Yahya superseding several officers and made chief of staff. This is because Yahya Khan was one of the young officers who supported Ayub Khans arrival as the Military leader in 1958. That is why Yahya was promoted superseding others and he finally reached the peak in early 1966 when Musa retired. Since then Hamid remained second person to Yahya but Yahya had to digest Hamids ultimatum on several occasions after Ayubs departure.

After recovering from possible overthrow Yahya returned to Dacca a week later on November 21, 1970. On the next day morning he began trips with a helicopter which he continued for two days. Shortly thereafter he returned to Islamabad. This time Yhaya decided to shift the election again as he recalled the death of two hundred thousand people. The actual figure could be ten times of this number. During Yahyas departure Mujib cautioned as not to change the date of election. 

Upon returning Islamabad Yahya changed the date for 9 constituencies along the coastal areas of the then East Pakistan after consulting with Justice Abdus Sattar. Somehow this opinion was tremendously disliked by Mujib on the evening of Ramadan Iftar for which he hardly did care. One way or the other Mujib never liked changing the election date at all. The reason is still unclear. None of his party activists gave any explanation for Mujibs restlessness concerning the election process.

A week later after the Eid-ul-Fitr on Monday, December 7, 1970 election took place peacefully throughout Pakistan. Mujib won 151 seats out of 153 constituencies. After midnight Mujib gave a statement saying that conspiracy is still being hatched for not allowing going to the power. For what reason Mujib delivered such a statement no one knew but ordinary brain can feel that the Pakistanis are not going to allow Mujib to be in the throne. As a common citizen or even educated one, any one, from the then East Pakistan did not understand why Mujib apprehended conspiracy while the election was taking place nicely which paved the road for him. Thirty-six years later today only a few Bangladeshis possibly understand the loop hole why Mujib was not finally crowned as the Prime Minister of Pakistan. Any way Mujib declared next day that all the elected Parliament Members will take oath on January 3, 1971 at the Outer Stadium. What was the purpose of this oath was a mystery.

Meanwhile December 17, 1970 came for the Provincial election. Mujib swept massive victory there except for the coastal 15 seats. On January 17, 1971 election took place in the coastal regions. Mujib secured all the seats for the National Parliament as well as for the Provincial Assembly. Thus, Mujib secured 160 seats which made him the winner of 167 seats that included 7 reserved seats for the females.

On January 3, 1970 Mujib staged a public oath ceremony at the Outer Stadium. He let doves fly in flocks of six and eleven referring to Mujibs 6-point formula and students 11-point formula. On that day Mujib asserted firmly that CONSPIRACY continues for not allowing Mujib to go to the power. Again Mujib did not explain what the conspiracy was about. How the conspiracy came forward in Mujibs mind remained a mystery.

On January 15, 1971 Yahya came to Dacca to talk to Mujib after setting the National Assembly Meeting date in Dacca on March 3, 1971. Before Meeting Mujib next day, Yahya firmly declared Mujib will be the next Prime Minister of Pakistan. Yahya was vowing to conclude his reign as President as the National Assembly Meeting date was advancing closer. That is why he, possibly, wanted a deal with Mujib as a continued President under the parliamentary system. Some sources indicate that Mujib was adamant not to consider a Military person as the figure head President of Pakistan. Eventually Yahya returned empty hand but arranged Bhutto to meet Mujib in order to advance discussion on framing the constitution. Yahya expressed anxiety as the winning parties were not discussing to frame a constitution for which Yahya expressed agony on many occasions by citing nine years for the first constitution implemented in 1956.

After winning a total of 88 seats from two provinces out of 144 seats Bhutto became very aggressive to grab power. He often cited the requirements of the LFO but got diffused with poor number of seats compared to Mujibs party as a single hand. However, Bhutto gained momentum with the loop-hole of the LFO that framed by Yahya-Cornelius gang. Often Bhutto uttered very strong words as if he is the sole leader in the Parliament. At the outset of the election result Bhutto declared firmly that under any circumstance he would not consider OPPOSITION LEADERSHIP in the Parliament. 

Invariably he felt strongly that he is the qualified Prime Minister of Pakistan per LFO. Bhutto indicated, if necessary, Mujib can become opposition leader in the Parliament. Further. Bhutto uttered under any circumstance he would not compromise any shortfall for the Prime Minister position and shall never share power with Mujib. On the other hand Mujib was adamant for not sharing power and never felt that he is not the majority party leader in the parliament. Again Mujib kept reiterating, after Yahyas departure on 17 January 1971, that conspiracy is continuing all over Pakistan to oppose his assuming power from Yahya Khan. Meanwhile Yahya shut his mouth about Mujibs future in the power transfer process as he was frustrated for not getting assurance of his continued pay-check.

Bhutto came to Dacca on January 29, 1971 to meet Mujib with his group of associates. Mujib arranged a great get-together in a rented LAUNCH that took nearly 300 people in SHAT-NOL area not too far from Jagadish Chandra Boses house on the morning of January 30, 1971. They landed in the Shat-nol alley (short-cut passage to go to parts of Faridpur from Dacca) where delicious cooking took place using professional cook for making each item. All the persons on board had a nice SOFOR on the land seeing country side and digesting fresh air while cooking continued. Among the items Polau, Kachchi Biriyani, Kofta, Shik-Kabab, Tikia Kabab, Rezala, Borhani, Salad, and many other delicious items were included in the menu. They finished the lunch with marvelous sweets as delicacy of the Bengali heritage style in the early afternoon. The snack contained tea and other soft drinks. Bhutto enjoyed this trip with his associates. 

However, there was no discussion concerning as how they could frame the constitution of Pakistan. Two leaders had no hard exchange as they passed time with fun PICNIC or NOU-BIHAR. They reached the starting point Sadarghat terminal in the late afternoon just before the sunset.

On the day of picnic an Indian Airlines was skyjacked by some fellows from Kashmir and brought to Lahore Airport in the mod-morning. Later on the same day afternoon the hijackers blew it. India blamed Pakistan for destroying the aircraft. Further India wanted the hijackers back on the Indian soil. Pakistan denied doing so. As a result by late afternoon India banned flights of the Pakistani aircrafts over Indian Territory. Pakistan accepted that as a reality and resumed flights between the wings roaming nearly double the distance between Dacca and Karachi.

Concerning Pakistani policy against India or vice versa, Mujib was mum. Bhutto gave statements against India. Later Mujib affirmed that the act of hijacking and blowing up the aircraft was incorrect. Next day morning Aakash Bani declared that Mujib is vowing power share with Bhutto in Dacca which Mujib denied. Bhutto did not say anything but returned to Karachi with his team. Upon reaching home Bhutto threatened all the elected Parliament members to break legs if anyone prepares to go to Dacca for the upcoming National Assembly Meeting scheduled on March 3, 1971. Bhutto openly declared his ambition to grab power by hook or by crook. He also said under any circumstance he would not allow Mujib to come closer to the power circle.

Frustrated Mujib continued his agenda with CONSPIRACY theory without making any conclusive remark. It was practically difficult to understand what exactly Mujib was trying to convey in his public meetings as well as declaration to the journalists. One thing was very clear that the utterances of Mujib and Bhutto had no similarity. It was very clear that Bhutto was getting strength from some corner. Actually that corner was nothing but LFO. The same LFO became CONSPIRACY to Mujib which Mujib did not make public.

In the eyes of common people Yahya seemed to begin working with Bhutto so that he gets a steady pay-check. Perhaps Bhutto had consented that way as no evidence suggests this undeclared plan. In the meantime Bhutto informed Yahya in Larkana during the first week of February 1971 that he had no discussion with Mujib during his meeting in Shat-nol concerning framing constitution and the process of power transfer. Yahya began to frustrate over Mujibs overall conduct. Yahya tried to make clear to Mujib that under any circumstance Mujib had to follow LFO. This became very strong assertion when Yahya did not get assurance after the days of power transfer for himself.

On February 15, 1971 Yahya dissolved his advisory cabinet (Ministerial cabinet like) and vowed to transfer power on March 3, 1971 in Dacca. This was a false indication from Yahya as he already got indication from Bhutto about his continued pay-check. Yahya began to buy time and kept Mujib under observation. On March 1, 1971 Yahya postponed the National Assembly Meeting schedule to be held in Dacca on March 3, 1971. It was announced over Radio Broadcast in the 1:00 p.m. news. The reaction started with fire in the Dacca Stadium where cricket Match was going on with Pakistan and Commonwealth XI. The players were sent to the security in the pavilion and quickly transported to Hotel Intercontinental. In the next flight all of them left for Karachi on the same evening. The rest of the day was chaotic with heavy unrest all over Dacca. The traffic became irregular as a few private cars and public buses were gutted in the Gulistan-Jinnah Avenue areas.

On February 15, 1971 Radio Australia announced that two packed ships were on the way to reach Chittagong port. This piece of news coincided with Yahyas abandoning advisory council. It is a puzzle as how Radio Australia got this information remained as untold mystery even now. It is a surprise that Mujibs followers or advisors never kept any information concerning the movement of the Pakistani Army.

Equating all pieces together there is no indication for Mujib-Bhutto discussion toward framing the constitution. Also it may be concluded that no discussion with Bhutto was necessary for Yahya to decide what to do as a next step. Nevertheless, Mujib frustrated on January 16, 1971 Meeting in Dacca when Yahya was turned down for a continued job. Seeing and evaluating all sequential features it appears that Mujib was a blunt and fool to understand the dynamics of politics though he seemed to be a political player for a long time. Knowing personal weakness concerning signing the LFO, and comprehending the loop-hole of the LFO Mujib should have compromised if he truly believed in the integrity of Pakistan. If Mujib did not believe in the integrity of Pakistan then he should have taken realistic plan and subsequent program for timely armed cessation so that his popularity does not reduce on one hand. On another hand, Mujib should have ensured outright recognition from friendly countries, whatever it could be, so that the loss of the lives and property would have been negligible. In general, the leaders of any revolution act in this way without surrendering.

Over Radio the reason cited as more time required to have dialogue between Mujib and Bhutto to come to a unified conclusion about the constitution of Pakistan. This argument was not sold to Mujib at any price as Mujib blamed Bhutto and Yahya for conducting joint conspiracy. This is the beginning of CONSPIRACY issue as a new episode with more explanation from Mujib. Immediately Mujib explained that he knew such incident would happen and reiterated that he always cautioned about the CONSPIRACY from the very beginning of the election results. Thus, Mujib began self-justification to earn more extra credit on his conspiring theory for the transfer of power to the elected representatives. Mujib continued blaming Bhutto and Yahya as a gang player. Indeed the common mass of the then East Pakistan viewed the entire sequential incident as the CONSPIRING THEORY of Mujib. With this beginning of the chaos Mujib became successful with his hypothesis.

The chaos shortly turned to the new flag in our planet. Mujib never apprehended this to happen and often expressed unhappiness to the students entering his residence. These students hoisted flag of unborn Bangladesh on March 2, 1971. They asked Mujib to declare independence of Bangladesh. Meanwhile Mujib and his followers used BANGLA, BANGLADESH, and many other conjugations with BENGALI associated words in several public meetings apart from using JOI BANGLA.

Mujib had no obvious plan for declaring independence on March 2, 1971. Rather he chose to become a leader of the Radar-less mass. His followers already changed the radio station to Dacca Betar Kendro (Radio Center). A new dimensional program was installed to the Radio as well as to the TV. The entire Eastern Province of Pakistan began a new phase of life with the taste of semi-independence though enjoyed a sort of independence since 1947. No one was certain exactly what the taste of this independence would be. However, black flag became a co-flag with the new flag of Bangladesh almost every building top in the city of Dacca. The University of Dacca became a center for controlling new directives for the embryo-stage nation.

Mujibs followers began to issue directives since March 2, 1971 using the pattern of Martial Promulgation Ordinance with sequential numbers. These directives gradually became furious as time went on. Public life became insecure where value of human life and property became vulnerable. Nearly overnight night-watchmen were imported from Mujibs party in various areas of Dacca city. Loot, arson, rape, killing, etc. became a broad day light feature throughout unborn Bangladesh. On March 2nd, 1971 Mujib set for a public Meeting in Ramna Race Course Maidan on March 7th 1971. Mujib arranged broadcasting his lecture over Radio. But this did not happen as the Pakistani Military authority interfered to stop it. In that meeting Mujib gave four conditions that gave no alternate to the immediate transfer of power to the elected representatives.

The power transfer job was not that easy as Mujib uttered easily after March 1, 1971. The clumsy process of LFO was not easy to square away other than making some hotchpotch cabinet to rule the country. This was unacceptable to both Mujib and Bhutto as Mujib felt he was the sole majority party leader but could not assert on it because of LFO, and as Bhutto felt he was the majority party leader per LFO requirements though does not have the absolute majority in terms of number. The LFO became a true barrier for the transfer of power unless some extraordinary manipulation is done. Because of this potential manipulation which Yahya could handle single-handedly, Yahya approached Mujib for some assurance of continued office work. Poor Mujib did not understand the language and stood by the civilian architecture of his administration.

Refusing to use bullets on the mass of the then East Pakistan Ahsan left his position from the Governors house. Quickly the position was given to Tikka Khan and he arrived on March 6, 1971. At the same time, Shahebzada Yakub Khan, another popular General, left the office of the zonal Martial Law office. This position was filled with Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi at a later date. Both Tikka and Niazi came almost at the same time to fill the gaps. Tikka was refused to get sworn in as Governor on March 7th 1971 by Justice B. A. Siddiky and his staff.

After Yahyas 6th March 1971 Radio Broadcast series of ships began to arrive in Chittagong port filled with Arms and Army Personnel. The arms were cleared with the help of the Bengali speaking employees using them as labors. These ships continued coming at least until March 25, 1971 without interruption. Often exchanges of firing took place due to unhappiness of the common people. Such events continued various parts of unborn Bangladesh.

Meanwhile March 6th 1971 came when Yahya voiced to meet Mujib on 15th March 1971 in Dacca. He assured to meet the National Assembly in Dacca on March 25, 1971. Mujib became very angry with the process that Yahya adopted. He blamed Yahya for not consulting him to make decisions on choosing the dates either for postponing or for rescheduling the National Assembly Meeting. Mujib pretended not to understand that Yahya apparently did not consult anyone to schedule these dates. It was mere presumptions by Mujib.

Finally, Yahya came to Dacca on March 15th 1971 at an unscheduled time in the mid afternoon where Tikka Khan received him at the Dacca Airport. On the next morning Mujib and Yahya met without aide. They discussed various issues for at least two hours. Mujib was let go without lunch for that day. He came out of the Presidents House (later Gonovaban) and told present journalists that talks were very fruitful.

The next day, Mujib sat down with five advisors while Yahya was primarily assisted with Peerzada, a diehard discriminator. After a long time Meeting with Yahya, Mujib came out of the room and declared talks are advancing toward power transfer. He also asserted that Yahya was agreeing all issues that Mujib wanted in the constitution. Meanwhile Yahya announced on March 17th 1971 that the National Assembly Meeting scheduled on March 25, 1971 is canceled and will be rescheduled after discussing with Mujib.

It is very irony that Mujib never told truth to the people at all. Each day Mujib met Yahya, and Yahya repeated the content of LFO to Mujib implying MJUIB WAS THE PROVINCIAL MAJORITY LEADER. Therefore, Mujib will have to accept the outcome of the LFO. Morally Mujib agreed each day this warning from Yahya but remained silent tom the public. Yahya never felt any problem with the LFO as it was not his matter at all. Yahya was only a fabricator while Mujib and other political leaders were just law abiding followers of the same document.

Bhutto and a few of his party members came to participate in the discussion with Yahya and Mujib. In fact this should have been done perhaps in early January 1971 instead of at this moment. Bhutto practically remained ineffective as if he knew what the consequence would be very soon.

Mujib continued bluff to the people until the late afternoon of March 25, 1971. It is really a concern that on that day Mujib also told the journalists that Yahya was finalizing transfer of power to the people elected representatives very soon. That time never came but realized with bullets within hours. The people of the soil began to absorb bullets after bullets which came without warning.

In the late afternoon on March 25, 1971 all party leaders headed by Wali Khan with Asghar Khan, Qaiyum Khan, Momtaj Daultana, and other party leaders of the then West Pakistan met Mujib to convince him from his adamant attitude of transferring power to the elected representatives at once. This never came as a fact from the mouth of Mujib but reveled in the utterances of Yahya Khan and then again in the White Paper published in October 1971.

The rest is the history as alive as if floating in the eyes of the people those who experienced the liberation war. Soon a new country emerged as Bangladesh on the global map. In fact, Mujibs hiding of the LFO signed document from the public has caused harm but eventually people realized to retaliate with arms to liberate the land without knowing about the LFO. The LFO is a mystery even today among the Bangladeshis, older or younger. No one knew about the consequence of LFO although Mujib and his close associate knew about it.

Today Kamal Hossain is alive. He knew about LFO. It was his recommendation to Mujib to sign this document and never talk about it to the public arena. Kamal Hossain possibly advised Mujib to go for voting and assured to make a deal about it at a later date. But Mujib was adamant Mujib about capturing the throne of Pakistan without a degree of compromise. His mind did not thaw from frozen mind-set with the Army Personnel as the constitutional President of Pakistan having a civilian Government headed by Mujib. While Yahya was in the steering holding the gear perfectly and Mujib seating in the drivers seat should have compromised to get the throne which he craved for a long time if truly Mujib wanted integrated Pakistan per requirements of LFO. Yahyas indication for transfer of power, though seemed very sincere from day one, but became very confusing only after January 16th 1971 Meeting with Mujib in Dacca. All actions after this time seemed very erratic from Yahyas corner and always gave a flavor that Yahya was engaged in a conspiracy of killing people instead of framing a genuine constitution of Pakistan.

Yahya could sit down with both Mujib and Bhutto together to clear out confusion about the LFO if he was so genuine to his promise. Also Yahya could assert publicly the consequence of LFO as Mujib was not talking about it in public. Yahya knew very well that Mujib was bluffing to the people but remained silent to look ahead with the consequence of bullets. His cruelty was eventually punished by his humiliated departure from the office on December 20, 1971. Personal interest became very prominent and important for Yahya which eventually brought brutal sentiment in Yahyas mind that prompted him to send Arms and Personnel to Chittagong on February 15, 1971. Had Yahya been a slight intelligent then he could have saved his favorite Pakistan simply by handing over power to Mujib by ignoring Bhutto. Rather he sided with Bhutto and saved him to see him as his successor but never realized humiliation.

Unplanned liberation war was never been successful if Pakistan had been a continuous land. Thus, Mujib should have been little more careful if he had decided for Bangladesh. Mujib could have earned independence on March 1, 1971 with minimal loss of life if he had vision and honesty. His bluffing nature never made him a man of character as well as a statesman. He continued telling lies that his grave was dug next to the cell in Pakistan even after coming back from the Pakistani custody. This blunt lie had no room to accommodate if any one becomes critical reviewer of Mujibs chronological political career.

Another issue concerning a Meeting with Bhutto before Mujibs departure from Islamabad Airport for London on January 8, 1972 is a mystery. Many analyzers predict that Mujib assured Bhutto with promises but later became null and void because of Indian influence in his administration. Further, Mujib was believed to have received a copy of the Holy Quoran from Bhutto which was never mentioned by Mujib at all.

Whatever Altaf Gauhar has documented about Mujib never coincided with what Mujib uttered about his cell life which was usually an ultra-brief note. Mujibs screaming in the next cell of Altaf Gauhar contained aspiration of an integrated Pakistan, if released. Mujib used to utter he could make Pakistan united. He wanted to meet Yahya repeatedly. Unfortunately Altaf Gauhar was still in custody though Mujib enjoyed power sitting in the office of anew country. Thus, no one knew what Altaf had to say about Mujib until later date when Mujib was no more.

It is very difficult to extract truth of the liberation war and all the events as why happened. This is because most of them are now dead. There are many fake associates of Mujib who were simply in touch with Mujib but knew nothing about the liberation war. Today Kamal Hossain is the only chap who has all the information. He must be arrested and quizzed to extract correct history of the liberation war of Bangladesh. After Kamal Hossain there would be no one to get truth about the incidents of 1970-1972 politics of our country. Before time runs out it is better to extract information as much as the nation could to erect a sound history and the role of Mujib during the liberation war of Bangladesh. Any sensible nation would do so in the greater interest of the generations to come. How long Kamal Hossain would remain silent? He is not going to be punished for revealing the truth which will aid to form a new dimension of the history of Bangladesh.
http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate...000000000106190


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## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> Not true at all. Bangladesh is irrelevant to Pakistan's foreign policy. They do not have an Army or Air force or a Navy, trade is minimal between the two countries, all that happens is they dump a lot of illegals onto Pakistan that soak up the stronger rupee. Tell me how or why Pakistan needs Bangladesh. I can tell you many ways that Bangladesh needs Pakistan more than the other way round. I'm not interested in trying to please Bangladeshis or whoever, only facts interest me, so you tell me how Pakistan needs Bangladesh more than Bangladesh needs Pakistan.



for your kind information Bangladesh has an army an air force and for that matter a navy and that also a good one Bangladeshi air force pilots are one of the best in south Asia and if Bangladesh is irrelevant to Pakistan then open your ears and listen loud & clear that Pakistan is also irrelevant and is of no importance to the people,s republic of Bangladesh also its going to be both ways or noways plus there are enough of Pakistan's that Bangladesh can afford to go to i dont care whether they are Hindu's, Muslims, Jews whatever Muslim brotherhood i understand but not at the expense of one's self respect and interest otherwise one can keep the Muslim brotherhood in ones pocket and can hit the nearest high way for all i care Bangladesh's interest comes first and foremost in its foreign policy plus if you look India is a much better option or even china then Pakistan if its mentality is as you have portrayed above their is no way Bangladesh will accept such a nasty mentality a plain and simple no sorry but its every man for himself
thank you


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## alamgir

if we just look on this what bangli people get after independance,even they can,t acieve single goal, they can,t stablise a democracy even they kill father of nation.ecnomically not improve but going worse,today BD defence is joke for india,plus devasing atmospher conditions every year make loses which BD soly can,t recover


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## Marathaman

alamgir said:


> if we just look on this what bangli people get after independance,even they can,t acieve single goal, they can,t stablise a democracy even they kill father of nation.ecnomically not improve but going worse,today BD defence is joke for india,plus devasing atmospher conditions every year make loses which BD soly can,t recover



Its doing much better than it ever did under Pakistan.


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## genmirajborgza786

Marathaman said:


> Its doing much better than it ever did under Pakistan.



good answer


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## roadrunner

Getting involved in a discussion of current day Bangladesh is moving away from the subject of this thread. But anyway, since you ask.. 



genmirajborgza786 said:


> for your kind information Bangladesh has an army an air force and for that matter a navy and that also a good one Bangladeshi air force pilots are one of the best in south Asia



 Good grief. Bangladesh has 1 grounded Mig-29. How much fly time do you think the pilots of the great Bangladeshi airforce get in it? They might have some F-7's lacking BVR, but it's all old technology, useless in any air warfare. And Bangladeshi pilots are most definitely not known as the best in South Asia.  



> and if Bangladesh is irrelevant to Pakistan then open your ears and listen loud & clear that Pakistan is also irrelevant and is of no importance to the people,s republic of Bangladesh



Then take back your millions of illegals in Pakistan. Then perhaps I'd agree. It's as simple as this. If tomorrow Bangladesh severed all ties with Pakistan, the Pakistani economy might lose a rupee. Bangladesh would lose billions in remittances, free ancient subs for its Navy and spare parts for its airforce amongst others. 



> also its going to be both ways or noways plus there are enough of Pakistan's that Bangladesh can afford to go to i dont care whether they are Hindu's, Muslims, Jews whatever Muslim brotherhood i understand but not at the expense of one's self respect and interest otherwise one can keep the Muslim brotherhood in ones pocket and can hit the nearest high way for all i care Bangladesh's interest comes first and foremost in its foreign policy plus if you look India is a much better option or even china then Pakistan if its mentality is as you have portrayed above their is no way Bangladesh will accept such a nasty mentality a plain and simple no sorry but its every man for himself
> thank you



Right-ee-oh, if it's all about self respect, and you guys hate Pakistan so much, why indeed do you keep going to Pakistan as illegals? I'll tell you..Stronger currency, plus less discrimination even in today's Pakistan compared to what you get in Bharat.


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## Ababeel

The Secularists in our ranks are hell bent to destroy us. There Nationalist policies are poisoning muslim societies throghout the Islamic world and guiding them towards disintegration. We must understand their conspiracies sooner than later otherwise we are not far from total destruction here and in life after death. They are responsible for taking us away from the Islamic Ideology. The ideology which makes us brothren irrespective of Arab or Non-Arabs, White or Black etc.


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## Marathaman

kbagdadi said:


> The Secularists in our ranks are hell bent to destroy us. There Nationalist policies are poisoning muslim societies throghout the Islamic world and guiding them towards disintegration. We must understand their conspiracies sooner than later otherwise we are not far from total destruction here and in life after death. They are responsible for taking us away from the Islamic Ideology. The ideology which makes us brothren irrespective of Arab or Non-Arabs, White or Black etc.



Isn't secularism one step better, since it makes you brethren irrespective of religion as well?
Consider it an upgrade over the older version.


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## alamgir

Ababeel said:


> The Secularists in our ranks are hell bent to destroy us. There Nationalist policies are poisoning muslim societies throghout the Islamic world and guiding them towards disintegration. We must understand their conspiracies sooner than later otherwise we are not far from total destruction here and in life after death. They are responsible for taking us away from the Islamic Ideology. The ideology which makes us brothren irrespective of Arab or Non-Arabs, White or Black etc.


well said today we need islam much more ever we need before


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## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> Then take back your millions of illegals in Pakistan. Then perhaps I'd agree. It's as simple as this. If tomorrow Bangladesh severed all ties with Pakistan, the Pakistani economy might lose a rupee. Bangladesh would lose billions in remittances, free ancient subs for its Navy and spare parts for its airforce amongst others.



& what about the biharis in Bangladesh when will you Pakistanis take them??? Bangladesh losing billions for severing ties with Pakistan man first of all if your Pakistan would be lucky enough to have that much money in the first place it would not have sold its own citizens to Uncle SAM for ECONOMIC AID jeez what double standards



roadrunner said:


> Right-ee-oh, if it's all about self respect, and you guys hate Pakistan so much, why indeed do you keep going to Pakistan as illegals? I'll tell you..Stronger currency, plus less discrimination even in today's Pakistan compared to what you get in Bharat.



hey hello wake up Pakistan for your kind information is a poor & mismanaged country not the land of opportunity seriously you need some reality check Pakistan being Stronger currency, plus less discrimination then India is nothing less then the joke of the century ! India is in one piece since independence while your Pakistan is already in half plate if you know what i mean  ouch now that really hurts.


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## Marathaman

roadrunner said:


> Good grief. Bangladesh has 1 grounded Mig-29. How much fly time do you think the pilots of the great Bangladeshi airforce get in it? They might have some F-7's lacking BVR, but it's all old technology, useless in any air warfare. And Bangladeshi pilots are most definitely not known as the best in South Asia.



So what is your point? Bangladesh is a small country. Its capabilities cannot be expected to match those of Pakistan. Go snigger at someone your own size.
Small countries like Sweden and Poland have done well for themselves. There is not reason why Bangladesh cannot do well on its own.
Small countries have a lot more advantages than you think.




roadrunner said:


> Then take back your millions of illegals in Pakistan. Then perhaps I'd agree. It's as simple as this. If tomorrow Bangladesh severed all ties with Pakistan, the Pakistani economy might lose a rupee. Bangladesh would lose billions in remittances, free ancient subs for its Navy and spare parts for its airforce amongst others.



As I said, go pick on someone your own size.



roadrunner said:


> Right-ee-oh, if it's all about self respect, and you guys hate Pakistan so much, why indeed do you keep going to Pakistan as illegals? I'll tell you..Stronger currency, plus less discrimination even in today's Pakistan compared to what you get in Bharat.



Really. We all know about the famous Pakistani secular democracy, don't we. Don't ***** about B'desh democracy when your own country's future is looking more ominous by the day.


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## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> & what about the biharis in Bangladesh when will you Pakistanis take them??? Bangladesh losing billions for severing ties with Pakistan man first of all if your Pakistan would be lucky enough to have that much money in the first place it would not have sold its own citizens to Uncle SAM for ECONOMIC AID jeez what double standards



Most of what's been written is not worthy of a reply so won't get one. However this....I am all in favour of an exchange of the Bihari population for the illegal Bangladeshis in Pakistan. A straightforward swap. They can even do the work the Bangladeshis are currently doing as legal citizens. The Biharis however ARE citizens of Bangladesh. They moved to East Pakistan and got Pakistani citizenship, then the war finished, and everyone in East Pakistan had their Pakistani citizenship removed, and a Bangladeshi citizenship given to them. Some Biharis refused, and I'm in favour of them being given Pakistani citizenship exhanging them for the illegal Bangladeshis in Pakistan. 

Oh and the economic aid is an old discredited argument that's been discredited by the world bank and imf. It's solid internal growth that has produced the economic rise of Pakistan. And no nothing of what you wrote hurt very much, as I know what the facts are between the two countries.


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## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> Most of what's been written is not worthy of a reply so won't get one. However this....I am all in favour of an exchange of the Bihari population for the illegal Bangladeshis in Pakistan. A straightforward swap. They can even do the work the Bangladeshis are currently doing as legal citizens. The Biharis however ARE citizens of Bangladesh. They moved to East Pakistan and got Pakistani citizenship, then the war finished, and everyone in East Pakistan had their Pakistani citizenship removed, and a Bangladeshi citizenship given to them. Some Biharis refused, and I'm in favour of them being given Pakistani citizenship exhanging them for the illegal Bangladeshis in Pakistan.
> 
> Oh and the economic aid is an old discredited argument that's been discredited by the world bank and imf. It's solid internal growth that has produced the economic rise of Pakistan. And no nothing of what you wrote hurt very much, as I know what the facts are between the two countries.



to argue with you would be a waste of time sorry no more attention for you   tough luck not worth it


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## Marathaman

roadrunner said:


> Oh and the economic aid is an old discredited argument that's been discredited by the world bank and imf. It's solid internal growth that has produced the economic rise of Pakistan. And no nothing of what you wrote hurt very much, as I know what the facts are between the two countries.



Oh yeah. Just completely deny the fact that Pakistan has piggybacked on the US pretty much throughout its history, pissed off the US for nuclear testing, and is now complaining about losing its support and being backstabbed.

Seriously. You guys asked for US interference, and you got it. Now learn to digest the bitter pills as well (you've already swallowed them).


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Pinks elephants!

Sorry RR, Bangladesh is very close to my heart.

I wish it well.

It was my homeland once.

I cannot forget it!

I may not be a citizen of BD, but my heart is there!


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Pinks elephants!
> 
> Sorry RR, Bangladesh is very close to my heart.
> 
> I wish it well.
> 
> It was my homeland once.
> 
> I cannot forget it!
> 
> I may not be a citizen of BD, but my heart is there!



not really relevant to what's being said, but alright. if the feeling is mutual, I'm sure they'll re-unite with you one day again, and you'll be able to move back to where your heart is.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

They won't unite with India under any circumstances.

Nor there is any reason to do so.

They are a sovereign country and doing very well.

However, with people of your temperament, stand by for the fragmentation of Pakistan. You would not need the RAW!


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## Adux

Ray saheb,

How long do you intend to toy with him?


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## roadrunner

Salim said:


> They won't unite with India under any circumstances.
> 
> Nor there is any reason to do so.
> 
> They are a sovereign country and doing very well.
> 
> However, with people of your temperament, stand by for the fragmentation of Pakistan. You would not need the RAW!



It's happened before, and it's not a strong country, it would be possible to occupy it and root out any rebels for Bharat, much the same as it was possible for West Pakistan to occupy it with much inferior hardware than today. It'll just take a new Bharati government to forge a few terrorist acts, occupy Bangladesh and noone will say much when Bharat has a bit more influence. I'd expect it to happen sooner or later. But I wish them both well, the situation is behind us, there's no need for war museums to commemorate any fake genocide that has been disproven by every serious academic in the world, including Bangladeshi ones.


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## akzaman

*Dacca, City of the Dead*

Within hours after launching a tank-led offensive in Dacca and other East Pakistani cities on the night of March 25, the Pakistan army imposed a virtual blackout on the brutal civil war in Bangla Desh (Bengal State) by expelling foreign newsmen. TIME correspondent Dan Coggin, who was among them, recently trekked back from India by Honda, truck, bus and bicycle to become the first American journalist to visit Dacca since the fighting started. His report:

Dacca was always a fairly dreary city, offering slim pleasures beyond the Hotel Intercontinental and a dozen Chinese restaurants that few of its 1,500,000 people could afford. Now. in many ways. it has become a city of the dead. A month after the army struck unleashing tank guns and automatic weapons against largely unarmed civilians in 34 hours of wanton slaughter, Dacca is still shocked and shuttered, its remaining inhabitants living in terror under the grip of army con trol. The exact toll will never be known. but probably more than 10,000 were killed in Dacca alone.

Perhaps half the city's population has fled to outlying villages. With the lifting of army blockades at road and river ferry exits, the exodus is resuming. Those who remain venture outdoors only for urgent food shopping. Rice prices have risen 50% since the army reportedly started burning grain silos in some areas. In any case, 14 of the city's 18 food bazaars were destroyed. The usually jammed streets are practically empty and no civil government is functioning.

"Kill the Bastards!" On every rooftop, Pakistans green-and-white flags hang limply in the steamy stillness. "We all know that Pakistan is finished,' said one Bengali. 'but we hope the flags will keep the soldiers away.'. As another form of insurance, portraits of Pakistan's late founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah, and even the current President Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan, were displayed prominently. But there was no mistaking the fact that the East Pakistanis viewed the armys occupation of Dacca as a setback and not a surrender. "We will neither forgive nor forget," said one Bengali. On learning that I was a sangbadik (journalist), various townspeople led me to mass graves, to a stairwell where two professors were shot to death, and to scenes of other atrocities.

The most savage killing occurred in the Old City, where several sections were burned to the ground, poured gasoline around entire blocks, igniting them with flamethrowers, then mowed down people trying to escape the cordons of fire, "They're coming out!" a Westerner heard soldiers cry, "Kill the bastards!"

One Bengali businessman told of losing his son, daughter-in-Iaw and four grandchildren in the fire. Few apparently survived in the destroyed sections-25 square blocks-of the Old City. If they escaped the flames, they ran into gunfire. To frighten survivors, soldiers refused to allow the removal of decomposing bodies for three days, despite the Moslem belief in prompt burial, preferably within 24 hours, to free the soul.

The dead of Dacca included some of East Pakistan's most prominent educators and businessmen, as well as some 500 students. Among at least seven University of Dacca professors who were executed without apparent reason was the head of the philosophy department. Govinda Chandra Dev, 65, a gentle Hindu who believed in unity in diversity. Another victim was Jogesh Chandra Ghosh, 86, the invalid millionaire chemist. Ghosh, who did not believe in banks, was dragged from his bed and shot to death by soldiers who looted more than $1 million in rupees from his home.

Looting was also the motive for the slaying of Ranada Prasad Saha, 80, one of East Pakistan's leading jute exporters and one of its few philanthropists: he had built a modern hospital offering free medical care at Mirzapur, 40 miles north of Dacca. Dev, Ghosh and Saha were all Hindus.

"Where arc the maloun [cursed ones] rampaging soldiers often asked as they searched for Hindus. But the Hindus were by no means the only victims. Many soldiers arriving in East Pakistan were reportedly told the absurdity that it was all right to kill Bengali Moslems because they were Hindus in disguise. "We can kill anyone for anything," a Punjabi captain told a relative. "We are accountable to no one.

Next Prime Minister. The tales of brutality are seemingly endless. A young man whose house was being searched begged the soldiers to do anything but to leave his 17-year-old sister alone; they spared him so he could watch them murder her with a bayonet. Colonel Abudl Hai, a Bengali physician attached to the East Regiment, was allowed to make a phone call to his family; an hour later his body was delivered to his home. An old man-who decided that Friday prayers were more important than the curfew was shot to death as he walked into a mosque.

About 1:30 on the morning of the attack, two armored personnel carriers arrived at the Dhanmandi home of Sheik Mujibur ("Mujib") Rahman, 51, the political leader behind the campaign for Bengali independence. Mujib first took refuge beneath a bed when the Special Security Group commandos began to spray his house with small-arms fire. Then, during a lull, he went to the downstairs veranda, raised his hands in surrender and shouted, "There is no need for shooting. Here I am. Take me."

Mujib was flown to West Pakistan, where he is reported held in Attock Fort near Peshawar. As an activist who had already spent nine years and eight months in jail, he may have reasoned at the time of his arrest that his political goals would be served by the martyrdom of further imprisonment. But he obviously did not expect to face a treason charge and possible execution. Only two months earlier, after all, President Yahya had referred to him as "the next Prime Minister of Pakistan."

No Choice. In Mujib's absence, the resistance movement is sorely lacking leadership, as well as arms, ammunition and communications gear. In late March, the mukti fauj (liberation forces) overwhelmed several company-size elements, as at Kushtia and Pabna, but bolt-action rifles cannot stop Sabre jets, artillery and army troops operating in battalion strength.

Still, everywhere I visited on the journey to Dacca, I found astonishing unanimity on the Bengali desire for independence and a determination to resist the Pakistan army with whatever means available. "We will not be slaves, said one resistance officer, "so there is no choice but to fight until we win." The oncoming monsoon rains and the Islamabad government's financial problems will also work in favor of Bangla Desh. As the months pass and such hardships increase, Islamabad may have to face the fact that unity by force of arms is not exactly the Pakistan that Jinnah had in mind.

TIME May 3, 1971; pp. 28


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## roadrunner

^^ Already posted on page 19, #184 post


----------



## Marathaman

roadrunner said:


> It'll just take a new Bharati government to forge a few terrorist acts, occupy Bangladesh and noone will say much when Bharat has a bit more influence.



Heh. Not every country is like Pakistan. Just because you guys do genocides, doesn't mean that the whole world will stoop to your standards.



roadrunner said:


> But I wish them both well,



No you don't. Don't hide your evil wishes under platitudes.



roadrunner said:


> the situation is behind us, there's no need for war museums to commemorate any fake genocide that has been disproven by every serious academic in the world, including Bangladeshi ones.



Sure, its been disproved by every academic in a serious state of denial.


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## roadrunner

Hmm, too much mind reading going on. Why wouldn't I wish Bangladesh well? The sooner they improve their economy, the sooner Pakistan gets rid of the illegals. I stand to win either way as I have an interest to hope Bangladesh does well regardless of whether I like the country or hate it. If I like the country, I'd obviously want it to do well, if I hate Bangladesh and Bangladeshis, I'd want to get rid of the illegals, and the only way to do that is to hope Bangladesh's economy improves so that they all do migrate back. If Bangladesh goes down, all that will happen is they'll be more dissatisfied with life, blame Pakistan more, and send more illegals over. So why on earth would I be interested in superficial platitudes when whatever my true feelings, it is in my interest to see Bangladesh do well? I didn't think you could think this far ahead. I hope it makes sense to you. 

As for Bangladesh reuniting with Bharat, everyone really DOES know that Bharat secretly desires this, despite all the strong denials from the Bharatis on here. It is in Bharat's interest to reunite with Bangladesh to secure the North-east, and to eliminate one source of rebellion from close by. Bharat cannot take Bangladesh now, but it is obvious that somewhere within the next 50 years, Bangaldesh will either reunite peacefully with Bharat (unlikely but possible), or it will be forced to unite with Bharat as the political climate changes. Please don't issue your consistent denials that Bharat is not interested in this, it never wanted partition and believes all these lands are part of Bharatvarsha. I don't see it as a problem anyway, depending on how Bharat treats its new entry of course.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

> Hmm, too much mind reading going on. Why wouldn't I wish Bangladesh well? The sooner they improve their economy, the sooner Pakistan gets rid of the illegals



Your posts bely the contention that you wish Bangladesh well.

Your venom indicates your inner psyche.

It also indicates your deep anger that Bangladesh had the audacity to shake off the Punjabi shackle, that is so evident with the rumblings in all other provinces that one sees.

You are attempting to be a jackal in sheep's clothing with you new found pious platitudes!

The Bangladeshis here are no nuts posting article after article to counter your venom as also attempting to put some brains and logic in your reply! But they are failing!


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## roadrunner

^^Care to name just one instance of anything I've said in this thread that is venomous? Didn't think so. If anyone were attempting to be a "jackal in sheep's clothing" it would be you and a couple of others I would say.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

roadrunner said:


> ^^Care to name just one instance of anything I've said in this thread that is venomous? Didn't think so. If anyone were attempting to be a "jackal in sheep's clothing" it would be you and a couple of others I would say.



Do I have to prove that the Earth is Flat?

Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see - runs a Beatle song. Would do you good to know this line.

You are so heated in your venom that you fail to realise what you do.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.


----------



## Awesome

Salim said:


> Your posts bely the contention that you wish Bangladesh well.
> 
> Your venom indicates your inner psyche.
> 
> It also indicates your deep anger that Bangladesh had the audacity to shake off the Punjabi shackle, that is so evident with the rumblings in all other provinces that one sees.
> 
> You are attempting to be a jackal in sheep's clothing with you new found pious platitudes!
> 
> The Bangladeshis here are no nuts posting article after article to counter your venom as also attempting to put some brains and logic in your reply! But they are failing!


Reading a lot more than what was written?


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Asim,

??

Like?


----------



## roadrunner

Salim said:


> Do I have to prove that the Earth is Flat?
> 
> Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see - runs a Beatle song. Would do you good to know this line.
> 
> You are so heated in your venom that you fail to realise what you do.
> 
> He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.
> He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
> He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
> He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.



So I guess you can't name anything. Incidentally, though off topic, your current maps of Bharatvarshado include Bangladesh..there's no point in acting that no Bharati has dreams of a reclamation of these lands they believe to be theirs. Pakistan is out, Eastern Afghanistan again not really any chance. When the politics suits the situation, this sort nationalism based on a fallacy will lead an occupation of whatever they can get their hands on.


----------



## Awesome

roadrunner said:


> So I guess you can't name anything. Incidentally, though off topic, your current maps of Bharatvarshado include Bangladesh..there's no point in acting that no Bharati has dreams of a reclamation of these lands they believe to be theirs. Pakistan is out, Eastern Afghanistan again not really any chance. When the politics suits the situation, this sort nationalism based on a fallacy will lead an occupation of whatever they can get their hands on.


A simple denial of your intentions is good enough Road Runner.

I would suggest, you both get to know each other a little better before you become sworn enemies and pass sweeping assumptions that I can see are not true about either.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

That is not MY map.

Asim,

One has to be equipped in all ways to be my enemy.

I am here for friends and to extend the friendship that was started by ABV and M.


----------



## akzaman

*Pakistan:Round 1 to the West*

THERE is Do doubt," said a foreign diplomat in East Pakistan last week," 'that the word massacre applies to the situation." Said another Western official: "It's a veritable bloodbath. The troops have been utterly merciless."

As Round 1 of Pakistan's bitter civil war ended last week, the winner-predictably-was the tough West Pakistan army, which has a powerful force of 80,000 Punjabi and Pathan soldiers on duty in rebellious East Pakistan. Reports coming out of the East (via diplomats, frightened refugees and clandestine broadcasts) varied wildly. Estimates of the total dead ran as high as 300,000. A figure of 10,000 to 15,000 is accepted by several Western governments, but no one can be sure of anything except that untold thousands perished. 

Mass Graves. Opposed only by bands of Bengali peasants armed with stones and bamboo sticks, tanks rolled through Dacca, the East's capital, blowing houses to bits. At the university, soldiers slaughtered students inside the British Council building. ..It was like Genghis Khan,' said a shocked Western official who witnessed the scene. Near Dacca's marketplace, Urdu-speaking government soldiers ordered Bengali-speaking towns-people to surrender, then gunned them down when they failed to comply. Bodies lay in mass graves at the university, in the Old City, and near the municipal dump.

During rebel attacks on Chittagong, Pakistani naval vessels shelled the port, setting fire to harbor installations. At Jessore, in the southwest, angry Bengalis were said to have hacked alleged government spies to death with staves and spears. Journalists at the Petrapole checkpoint on the Indian border found five bodies and a human head near the frontier post-the remains, apparently, of a group of West Pakistanis who had tried to escape. At week's end there were reports that East Bengali rebels were maintaining a precarious hold on Jessore and perhaps Chittagong. But in Dacca and most other cities, the rebels had been routed.

The army's quick victory, however, did not mean that the 58 million West Pakistanis could go on dominating the 78 million Bengalis of East Pakistan indefinitely. The second round may well be a different story. It could be fought out In paddies and jungles and along river banks for months or even years. 

Completing the Rupture. The civil war erupted as a result of a victory that was too sweeping, a mandate that was too strong. Four months ago, Pakistan's President, Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan, held elections for a constituent assembly to end twelve years of martial law. Though he is a Pathan from the West. Yahya was determined to be fair to the Bengalis. He assigned a majority of the assembly seats to Pakistan's more populous eastern wing, which has been separated from the West by 1,000 miles of India since the partitioning of the subcontinent in 1947. 

To everyone's astonishment, Sheik Mujibur Rahmari and his Awami League won 167 of the 169 seats assigned to the Bengalis, a clear majority in the 313 seat assembly. "I do not want to break Pakistan," Mujib told TIME shortly before the final rupture two weeks ago. "But we Bengalis must have autonomy so that we are not treated like a colony of the western wing." Yahya resisted Mujib's demands for regional autonomy and a withdrawal of troops. Mujib responded by insisting on an immediate end to martial law. Soon the break was complete. Reportedly seized in his Dacca residence at the outset of fighting and flown to West Pakistan, Mujib will probably be tried for treason.

All Normal. West Pakistanis have been told little about the fighting. ALL NORMAL IN EAST was a typical newspaper headline in Karachi last week. Still, they seemed solidly behind Yahya's tough stand. "We can't have our flag defiled, our soldiers spat at, our nationality brought into disrepute," said Pakistan Government Information Chief Khalid Ali. "Mujib in the end had no love of Pakistan."

Aware that many foreigners were sympathetic to the Bengalis, Yahya permitted the official news agency to indulge in an orgy of paranoia. "Western press reports prove that a deep conspiracy has been hatched by the Indo-Israeli axis against the integrity of Pakistan and the Islamic basis of her ideology," said the agency. 

The Indian government did in fact contribute to the Pakistanis' anxiety. Although New Delhi denied that India was supplying arms to the Bengali rebels, the Indian Parliament passed a unanimous resolution denouncing the "carnage" in East Pakistan. India's enthusiasm is hardly surprising, in view of its longstanding feud with the West Pakistanis and the brief but bloody war of 1965 over Kashmir. But Western governments urged New Delhi to restrain itself so as not to provoke West pakistan into making an impulsive response.

Hit and Run. For the time being, West Pakistan's army can probably maintain its hold on Dacca and the other cities of the East. But it can hardly hope to control 55,000 sq. mi. of countryside and a hostile population indefinitely. The kind of Bengali terrorism that forced the British raj to move the capital from Calcutta to Delhi in 1911 may well manifest itself again in a growing war of hit-and-run sabotage and arson. In modern times, the East Bengalis have been best known to foreigners as mild-mannered peasants, clerks and shopkeepers, perhaps the least martial people on the subcontinent. But in their support of Bangla Desh (Bengal State), they have displayed a fighting spirit that could spell lasting turmoil for those who want Pakistan to remain united. As Mujib often asked his followers rhetorically: "Can bullets suppress 78 million people?"

*TIME April 12, 1971; pp. 23-24*


----------



## Marathaman

roadrunner said:


> So I guess you can't name anything. Incidentally, though off topic, your current maps of Bharatvarshado include Bangladesh..there's no point in acting that no Bharati has dreams of a reclamation of these lands they believe to be theirs. Pakistan is out, Eastern Afghanistan again not really any chance. When the politics suits the situation, this sort nationalism based on a fallacy will lead an occupation of whatever they can get their hands on.



Damn. Looks like the Bharatvarsha people forgot aksai chin and arunachal pradesh. How absent minded of them. Sorry guys. Looks like we'll have to vacate these areas, since they are not part of bharatvarsha.

Roadrunner, it seems that you know more about this Bharatvarsha thingy than the Indians themselves.
Please live in modern times. There is no need to use a map of epic india in order to justify your wild theories.
No Indian, not even the most hardcore hindu fundamentalist, is planning to conquer afghanistan to satisfy his alleged religious wet dreams.


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## salman nedian

> (by Ababeel)Why we are fighting here for a cruel episode directed by Secularists on both sides who destroyed our unity and divided us in two parts. It's time we must return towards the Islamic values and start thinking what Islam wants from us which can give us success in both the worlds, here and in life after death



Agreed! 




> (By Roadrunner)Not true at all. Bangladesh is irrelevant to Pakistan's foreign policy. They do not have an Army or Air force or a Navy, trade is minimal between the two countries, all that happens is they dump a lot of illegals onto Pakistan that soak up the stronger rupee. Tell me how or why Pakistan needs Bangladesh. I can tell you many ways that Bangladesh needs Pakistan more than the other way round. I'm not interested in trying to please Bangladeshis or whoever, only facts interest me, so you tell me how Pakistan needs Bangladesh more than Bangladesh needs Pakistan.



Its not the Question that Bangladesh needs us or we needs Bangladesh.National Unity is important. we were one Country and we should remain United.



well i want to say "Happy Independance Day" to Pakistani and Bangladeshi brothers as well b/c you also got Independance on 14th August 1947.I think we should celebrate "Independance Day" jointly.we can celebrate "Bangladeshi Independance Day" as a "Day of Friendship/Reunion"so that we can forget the bitterness of past.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> Damn. Looks like the Bharatvarsha people forgot aksai chin and arunachal pradesh. How absent minded of them. Sorry guys. Looks like we'll have to vacate these areas, since they are not part of bharatvarsha.



The authenticity is thus suspect and instead it appears a huge snafu in the propaganda and disinformation where it is claimed to be a Bhararatwhatever!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Well I, too, want to say "Happy Independence Day" to Pakistani and Bangladeshi brothers as well because you also got Independence on 14th August 1947. And we claimed Independence at the stroke of midnight. I think we should celebrate "Independence Day" jointly. We can celebrate so that we can forget the bitterness of past.


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## roadrunner

Asim Aquil said:


> A simple denial of your intentions is good enough Road Runner.
> 
> I would suggest, you both get to know each other a little better before you become sworn enemies and pass sweeping assumptions that I can see are not true about either.



It's just debate on my part. 



Salim said:


> The authenticity is thus suspect and instead it appears a huge snafu in the propaganda and disinformation where it is claimed to be a Bhararatwhatever!



It's not exact, but it is authentic that Bangladesh is believed to be part of Bharatvarsha in the Mahbharata..Fundamentalists don't give up dreams that easily. 

*"This emperor apparently won most of the known world in that time and the region covering then current India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan and more - called Bharatvarsha." * 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11073043


----------



## Marathaman

roadrunner said:


> It's not exact, but it is authentic that Bangladesh is believed to be part of Bharatvarsha in the Mahbharata..Fundamentalists don't give up dreams that easily.
> 
> *"This emperor apparently won most of the known world in that time and the region covering then current India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan and more - called Bharatvarsha." *
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11073043



Hehe. You are quoting from Mahabharat for your grand plans for India? 

Come on man. You can do better than that.

Next thing you know, you'll be fantasizing about Italian expansionist plans based on the maps of the Roman empire.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> It's just debate on my part.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not exact, but it is authentic that Bangladesh is believed to be part of Bharatvarsha in the Mahbharata..Fundamentalists don't give up dreams that easily.
> 
> *"This emperor apparently won most of the known world in that time and the region covering then current India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan and more - called Bharatvarsha." *
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11073043



OK big deal what can you or Pakistan do about it lets face it there is no such thing as right or wrong in world politics its might is right weakness is wrong in this case India is strong = RIGHT Pakistan is weak = tough luck! keep on doing that bharti bharatvarsha whatever as for Bangladesh well it would definitely benefit bd if it is integrated in to the Indian union thats for sure Joyti basu one of the most prominent politician of India is from Bangladesh east Bengal there are so many east Bengali brothers & sisters in India who are very happy there & why should the Bangladeshi people go to Pakistan when such a rich & Strong nation is just across the border why should they go to Pakistan what dose Pakistan have in the first place that it can offer terrorist training camps, lawlessness a fragile political system & a few Penny's known as economic aid man even India was willing to give you guys $25 million donation during the earthquakes & then you talk jeez


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Marathaman said:


> Hehe. You are quoting from Mahabharat for your grand plans for India?
> 
> Come on man. You can do better than that.
> 
> .




really' ??? dont tell me  bharatvarsha   :rofl


----------



## akzaman

*Pakistan:The Push toward the Borders*

Radio Pakistan announced last week that Pakistan International Airlines has resumed its internal flight between the East Pakistan capital of Dacca and the town of Jessore, formerly a stronghold of rebel resistance. The broadcast failed to note that the PIA prop jets were carrying only soldiers, and that they were escorted into Jessore airport by air force Sabre jets.

It was true, however, that the army has taken the offensive in Pakistan's savage civil war. In the early days of fighting, the troops had prudently preferred to remain in their garrison areas, for the most part, until additional men and supplies arrived. Last week they began to push toward the Indian border, hoping to secure the hardtop roads by the time the monsoon rains begin in late May. If they succeed, they will he able to block any sizable imports of arms and other equipment for the Bangla Desh (Bengal State) resistance fighters.

Naxalite Sympathizers. Despite the heavy cost of the operation (estimated at $1.3 million per day) and widespread international criticism, the government of President Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan seems determined to press for a decisive victory. The U.S. and most other Western countries have thus far maintained a careful neutrality. Washington announced that it has furnished no arms to Pakistan since the fighting began March 25. Communist China, on the other hand, has strongly supported the Pakistan government, while India, Pakistans traditional adversary, has quietly sympathized with the rebels.

The Indians most deeply involved are the West Bengali insurgents. But West Bengali sympathy is tempered by a fear that a civil war in East Bengal will prove costly to themselves as well. For a generation, West Bengal has received a steady flow of refugees from across the border. Now the flow has greatly increased, with an added burden to the state's economy. Among West Bengalis, the most enthusiastic supporters of the East Pakistani cause are Calcutta's urban terrorists, the Maoist Naxalites. Some are said to have slipped across the border with homemade guns and bombs to help the rebels. 

Strong Words. Officially, India has tried to maintain calm. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi declared earlier that India could hardly remain a "silent observer to the carnage in East Pakistan. But last week, when asked if she would describe the fighting as an "imperial war'. she replied sternly. .'the use of strong words will not help." 

From East Pakistan came reports that the destruction was continuing. Estimates of the number of dead ranged to 200,000 or more. In the port city of Chittagong, hundreds of bodies were dumped into the river to be carried away by the tide. Some observers reported a virtual pogrom against East Pakistan's educated leadership, raising the specter of a region reduced to peasant serfdom. Even the modern jute mills, owned by West Pakistani businessmen, were reported destroyed.

Provisional Government. There was also savagery on the Bengali side. Rebels were reported to be paying off old scores against non-Bengali Moslems who settled in East Pakistan after the 1947 partition of British India into India and Pakistan. At the town of Dinajpur, most male members of this group were killed and the women taken to makeshift internment camps.

Despite the continued absence of their political leader, Sheikh Mlljibur ("Mujib") Rahman who is thought to be in prison in West Pakistan. the rebels announced the formation of a Bangla Desh provisional government last week. They named Mlljib President. One of his colleagues, Tajuddin Ahmad, who is at large in East Pakistan, became Prime Minister. As their provisional capital, the rebels prudently chose the town of Meherpur, which lies a mere four miles from the Indian border. 

The Bangla Desh forces are critically short of gasoline and diesel fuel and lack the field-communication equipment necessary for organized military activity. They have avoided any full-scale engagements, in which they would undoubtedly sustain heavy losses. Some observers believe, in fact, that the long guerrilla phase of the civil war has already begun, with the army holding most of the towns and the rebels controlling much of the countryside. Despite the apparent determination of the Pakistan government to maintain its hold on East Bengal, the sheer human arithmetic of the situation seemed to indicate that the Bengalis would ultimately win freedom or at least some form of regional autonomy. At the present time, the East Bengalis outnumber the West Pakistani soldiers in their midst by about 1,000 to 1.

*TIME April 26, 1971; pp. 39-40*


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> OK big deal what can you or Pakistan do about it lets face it there is no such thing as right or wrong in world politics its might is right weakness is wrong in this case India is strong = RIGHT Pakistan is weak = tough luck! keep on doing that bharti bharatvarsha whatever as for Bangladesh well it would definitely benefit bd if it is integrated in to the Indian union thats for sure Joyti basu one of the most prominent politician of India is from Bangladesh east Bengal there are so many east Bengali brothers & sisters in India who are very happy there & why should the Bangladeshi people go to Pakistan when such a rich & Strong nation is just across the border why should they go to Pakistan what *dose Pakistan have in the first place that it can offer terrorist training camps, lawlessness a fragile political system & a few Penny's known as economic aid man even India was willing to give you guys $25 million donation* during the earthquakes & then you talk jeez



You obviously don't know the realities of South Asia. Generally Pakistani wages are higher, and Bangladeshis believe Pakistan to be a better place to work than Bharat. 

*"Wages in Pakistan, the man they knew as Shah Hussain told them, were higher than anywhere in India. There, he claimed, they would neither face the hostility directed at Bangladeshi illegal immigrants in India nor the threat of deportation."* 

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2005/stories/20030314006612300.htm 

You've mentioned about Pakistan being weak, and Bharat strong. Obviously you don't believe that, you're just making an emotional tantrum as usual. The topic is about Bangladesh's creation, and we had diverged to talking about Bharat's desire to re-conquer the lands which the extremists there claim were part of the original Bharatvarsha, Pakistan is pretty safe, so is Afghanistan by virtue that Pakistan is in the way with it's nukes, Bangladesh is not, and if your mentality is to be believed as a Bangadeshi (or perhaps you're Bharati) you'll be joining them sooner rather than later. 

And 25 mill is not a lot of money for an earthquake. A country which is the biggest in the world offered the least loan for a quake, and has the highest number of street sleepers in the world. Don't kid yourself, your arguments are not based on fact.


----------



## akzaman

*An Army Insider's Honest Expose of Atrocities in East Pakistan Debacle*

Following is a review from a book written by an insider close to power in 1971. It is a confession from a Pakistani high official about the attrocities caused to Bengalees by their so called "muslim" brothers from West Pakistan. Please read the last two paragraphs attentively where General Niazi defended the rape of our women in 1971. The BNP-Jamat and pro-pakistan supporters who still love Pakistan should be ashamed (if they have any shame) of their role.

An Army Insider's Honest Expose of Atrocities in East Pakistan Debacle:

KARACHI, March 25: The East Pakistan tragedy was not just a failure of the military establishment of the day but also the abysmal collapse of civil society in West Pakistan. Launched at midnight, 25 March 1971, the military action went on for nine long months without eliciting any concerted protest from the West Pakistani public and political leadership.

The few low voices raised against the military action were too feeble to make the army change the suicidal course it had set itself, leading to an ignominious military defeat and the breakup of the country.

Brigadier Abdul Rehman Siddiqi, who headed the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) and was Press Advisor to Army Chief General Yahya Khan, was clearly in the thick of things. Therefore, his book 'East Pakistan: The Endgame  An Onlookers Journal 1969-1971' will be of interest to those wishing to penetrate the historical veil that has subsequently been draped over the more unsavory events of that era.

The author had the unique advantage of observing the tragedy as it unfolded. As the ISPR chief, he interacted with the national press and a cross-section of public and political leadership in both wings. In his description and appraisal of the various dramatis personae, he acts as an impartial observer.

Apart from the fresh light the book sheds on the traumatic episode, the simplicity and candor of the narrative adds much to its readability. Thus, the book may well contribute towards the much-needed bridge building between Pakistan and Bangladesh.

"In 1971, Pakistan was torn into two, its eastern half declaring itself the independent nation of Bangladesh. While the broader details of this debacle have since become comprehensible, historians are still trying to glean a few remaining facts from the myths and half-truths that continue to linger some 33 years later.

From the start, the author makes it clear that the book is based on his diaries and other sources that he had personal access to as the ISPR chief. He also admits to have scrupulously avoided relying on any subsequent books or other published material that relates to the events. As a result, the reader is presented with a first-hand account of those fateful days.

The narrative begins in February 1969 when President Ayub Khan, besieged by street agitation, sought to negotiate his way out by calling for a Round Table Conference (RTC). However, as Siddiqi explains, Yahya had already started plotting against his boss. Unknown to most people at the time, the army chief secretly met the East Pakistani leader Mujibur Rehman and asked him not to relent on his demands. In fact, as Siddiqi points out, Yahya went as far as to tell Mujib that he could go ahead with his anti-Ayub campaign without any let or hindrance from the army.

Siddiqi also reveals that a week before the RTC, he was ordered by General Ghulam Umar to secretly prepare an advance draft for Yahyas address to the nation as the Chief Martial Law Administrator. Two days later, Yahya flatly refused Ayubs direct request for the army to come to the aid of the civil government.

According to Siddiqi, Yahya made it abundantly clear to his superior that it was either complete martial law under his own control or nothing. And Ayub knew then that his days were numbered. Following his refusal to help Ayub quell the violent civic unrest, Siddiqi discloses how Yahya cunningly enlisted the support of his old drinking buddy interior minister Admiral AR Khan, who persisted in presenting highly pessimistic daily briefs to further undermine the president.

When Siddiqi confronted General Pirzada with these peculiar goings-on, he was politely told to hush up. The dice had been cast and within a month Ayub departed from the scene after handing over power to Yahya.

Following the takeover, Siddiqi claims that Yahya was quick to reveal his true intentions and confided to some of his senior officers: Gentlemen, we must be prepared to rule this unfortunate country for the next 14 years or so.

Soon, Yahya announced general elections after being convinced by the intelligence agencies that they would result in a split vote and a fractious National Assembly, making it impossible for the new government to fulfil the stipulation of an approved constitution within 120 days. This failure, the thinking went, would then lead to fresh elections while power would indefinitely remain in the armys firm grip.

However, the election results could not have been farther from Yahyas calculations. Badly let down by the intelligence agencies, Yahya decided to pursue a new course of action. His famous reference to Mujib as the future prime minister was in reality no more than a calculated maneuver aimed at, first to set the military against Mujib, and second, to provoke the Pakistan Peoples Party.

The worried generals then recruited Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to ensure that any chance of a compromise with Mujib would be non-existent. In fact, as Siddiqi informs us, General Umar even met many West Pakistani minority party leaders to actively dissuade them from attending the first National Assembly session at Dhaka. Not surprisingly, East Pakistan soon went on the boil in the face of such intransigence. And the army-controlled West Pakistani media retaliated by accusing East Pakistanis of treason.

We all know what followed. The armys subjugation of East Pakistan resulted in untold misery for millions of innocent Pakistanis, the death of many thousands as well as the breakup of Jinnahs original Pakistan. And as Siddiqis narrative makes apparent, all this happened so that the generals could maintain their hold on power. Since then, it has suited successive army generals to place the blame on Bhutto. But the pertinent question is: how many tanks, guns and soldiers did Bhutto have at his disposal? The answer, of course, is none.

Another fact the author emphasizes is the sheer profusion of war crimes inflicted on hapless Pakistani citizens by its own army. The reader comes across a devastated Major General Ansari telling Siddiqi that rape and brutality were widespread. The general also confesses to a complete breakdown in the discipline of his junior officers [and that] there was little he could do to check their "atrocities. If junior officers had run amok, one shudders to think what the less-educated jawans got up to.

Siddiqi also exposes the infamous General Niazi who shamelessly defended the rapists by declaring that: You cannot expect a man to live, fight and die in East Pakistan and go to Jhelum for sex, would you? Even 30-plus years later, the fact that most, if not all, of these perpetrators got away scot-free, can provoke tears of rage and shame.

Ultimately, 'The End Game' is a brave and honest book and Siddiqi should be commended for writing it, even if it took him all these years to muster the resolve. A must-read for anyone interested in Pakistans past." - Courtesy Herald.

http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate...000000000067723


----------



## Marathaman

roadrunner said:


> Bharat's desire to re-conquer the lands which the extremists there claim were part of the original Bharatvarsha, Pakistan is pretty safe, so is Afghanistan by virtue that Pakistan is in the way with it's nukes, Bangladesh is not, and if your mentality is to be believed as a Bangadeshi (or perhaps you're Bharati) you'll be joining them sooner rather than later.



Aha. I know why you are so sure of Bharat's "expansionist plans". The amazing consipracy theorist that you are, your hands are dirty too.

You are the guys dreaming of an islamic empire stretching throughout Asia aren't you?
Hmm...now with Bharatvarsha in the way, its time for the Mahabharat of the 21st century  

This time, the kauravas have been replaced...by the united islamic forces!!


----------



## history

roadrunner said:


> You obviously don't know the realities of South Asia. Generally Pakistani wages are higher, and Bangladeshis believe Pakistan to be a better place to work than Bharat.
> 
> *"Wages in Pakistan, the man they knew as Shah Hussain told them, were higher than anywhere in India. There, he claimed, they would neither face the hostility directed at Bangladeshi illegal immigrants in India nor the threat of deportation."*
> 
> http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2005/stories/20030314006612300.htm
> 
> You've mentioned about Pakistan being weak, and Bharat strong. Obviously you don't believe that, you're just making an emotional tantrum as usual. The topic is about Bangladesh's creation, and we had diverged to talking about Bharat's desire to re-conquer the lands which the extremists there claim were part of the original Bharatvarsha, Pakistan is pretty safe, so is Afghanistan by virtue that Pakistan is in the way with it's nukes, Bangladesh is not, and if your mentality is to be believed as a Bangadeshi (or perhaps you're Bharati) you'll be joining them sooner rather than later.
> 
> And 25 mill is not a lot of money for an earthquake. A country which is the biggest in the world offered the least loan for a quake, and has the highest number of street sleepers in the world. Don't kid yourself, your arguments are not based on fact.



Just because some illegal migrant transporter called Shah Hussain claims they are higher they don't mean so. If you want real comparison, look at the per capita income in $ terms. you'll find that pakistan is ranks below india.

or perhaps in pakistan there is a lot of jobs of workers and labourers and hardly any for IT workers. btw, pak poverty as a % of the population is even greater than india so don't talk about street sleepers as if pakistan was some developed economy. and to think we offered u donations for the earthquake. fine habit to look a gifted horse in the mouth.

Beggars can't be choosers.


----------



## roadrunner

history said:


> J*ust because some illegal migrant transporter called Shah Hussain claims they are higher they don't mean so.* If you want real comparison, look at the per capita income in $ terms. you'll find that pakistan is ranks below india.
> 
> or perhaps in pakistan there is a lot of jobs of workers and labourers and hardly any for IT workers. btw, pak poverty as a &#37; of the population is even greater than india so don't talk about street sleepers as if pakistan was some developed economy. and to think we offered u donations for the earthquake. fine habit to look a gifted horse in the mouth.
> 
> Beggars can't be choosers.



Sheesh. Do I need to spell it out? Whether or not wages are higher in Pakistan than Bharat (they are higher but anyway) is not the point. The point is that the Bangladeshis are TOLD that wages are higher and they are treated better, and this PERCEPTION is firmly entrenched in their mind, which is why so many Bangladeshis illegals go to work in Pakistan over Bharat. If you look at the link it is from a Bharati website, so I think we can say that that image of make money in Pakistan is true for Bangladeshis and it's why they go there to the "paradise" land as the article calls it.


----------



## EagleEyes

> to think we offered u donations for the earthquake. fine habit to look a gifted horse in the mouth.
> 
> Beggars can't be choosers.



Next time, becareful of which country your talking above.

Consider it a warning.

Thanks.


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## salman nedian

history said:


> Just because some illegal migrant transporter called Shah Hussain claims they are higher they don't mean so. If you want real comparison, look at the per capita income in $ terms. you'll find that pakistan is ranks below india.
> 
> or perhaps in pakistan there is a lot of jobs of workers and labourers and hardly any for IT workers. btw, pak poverty as a % of the population is even greater than india so don't talk about street sleepers as if pakistan was some developed economy. and to think we offered u donations for the earthquake. fine habit to look a gifted horse in the mouth.
> 
> Beggars can't be choosers.



This thread is only for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.Indians should not post their views. 


Hey Bangladeshi brothers,

do you know Mr.Mehmood Ali?

He was a highly respected politician of former East Pakistan, a champion of unity of muslims, and opposed the creation of Bangladesh,and lived here in Pakistan.He started a movement for the reunion of Pakistan called "Tahrik-e-Takmeel-e-Pakistan".

what are your views about him?


----------



## genmirajborgza786

salman nedian said:


> This thread is only for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.Indians should not post their views.
> 
> 
> Hey Bangladeshi brothers,
> 
> do you know Mr.Mehmood Ali?
> 
> He was a highly respected politician of former East Pakistan, a champion of unity of muslims, and opposed the creation of Bangladesh,and lived here in Pakistan.He started a movement for the reunion of Pakistan called "Tahrik-e-Takmeel-e-Pakistan".
> 
> what are your views about him?



brother salman i respect you & i would like to say that Pakistan needs people like you & i respect your views but to your question unfortunately the answer is Muslim brotherhood unity of east west Pakistan comes secondary first & foremost comes the interest of Bangladesh & the Bengali people simple its the Bengali way or the highway as for Mr.mehmood Ali my views is if Pakistanis viewpoint is as such as Mr.roadrunner's then Mr.Ali is 100&#37; wrong & i thank ALLAH from the bottom of my heart that east Pakistan broke away from Pakistan to form Bangladesh thats the best thing that has happened to Bangladesh in a long time after that i think Bangladesh should have united with India thats just my thinking . Anyways i wish Pakistan all the best


----------



## salman nedian

Akzaman,
we can gain nothing if we keep blaming each other,do u think that a President of a Country can order his army that "kill 3 million of my population"? Its non-sence.

I am not defending any individual who commited a shameless crime such as rape but those crimes were commited by "Mukti Bahini" also but again you cannot blame the whole nation for that. If we keep blaming each other i am afraid that we cannot move forward if u cannot forget the bitterness of past u will become the slave of past and cannot progress.

I hope you understand that and if not then what can i say,remain divided and history will never forgive us. 


Genmirajborgza786,
I am sorry I disagree with you no one gives his part like we did and we should be jelous about each and every part of our country.Muslim League formed at Dhaka and we should admire Bengali people as they were the creators of Pakistan along with us.By saying that disintegration of Pakistan was a good step we are insulting the martyrs of Pakistan Movement.


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> brother salman i respect you & i would like to say that Pakistan needs people like you & i respect your views but to your question unfortunately the answer is Muslim brotherhood unity of east west Pakistan comes secondary first & foremost comes the interest of Bangladesh & the Bengali people simple its the Bengali way or the highway as for Mr.mehmood Ali my views is if Pakistanis viewpoint is as such as Mr.roadrunner's then Mr.Ali is 100&#37; wrong & i thank ALLAH from the bottom of my heart that east Pakistan broke away from Pakistan to form Bangladesh thats the best thing that has happened to Bangladesh in a long time after that i think Bangladesh should have united with India thats just my thinking . Anyways i wish Pakistan all the best



You obviously don't understand my views. My views are these. 

The 3 million figure of war of independence is a figment of Bengali nationalist propaganda. 
The Muktihi Bahini committed war crimes, just like the Razakhars, just like the PA, just like the Bharatis..noone was innocent so holding a "holohoax" war museum in Dhakka is pure hypocrisy
The Muktihi Bahini and Bengali Nationalists are guilty of propagating myths and lies such as the Jessore Massacre which was committed by Bengalis and blamed on PA. If they can lie so much over one incident, how many more incidents have they lied about? 
The discrimination of Bengalis in particular did not exist - this is agree is controversial, but I have not seen a full proof case to demonstrate there was discrimination between the West and East wings by the government. On the contrary I know Ayub Khan tried to stimulate the enrollment of Bengalis in PA, but it failed because the Bengalis did not want to join. 
The war of independence was a result not of real discrimination between the East and West, it was as a result of the incitement to revolt in the speeched of Mujib that the people from the East wing fell for hook, line & etc. 
My final "point" is more a question. Given all this, why do Bengalis like yourself want to keep the myth alive about there being a one way genocide when this has been proven not to be the case? 

If you want to discuss these views instead of resorting to poor quality jokes and insults, then prove to me how my views are wrong..it's better than cursing which only makes you look foolish yourself.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

RR, 

Why are you pleading?

If Pakistan has done nothing wrong, then speak out and not plead as if on bended knees.

And I am sure you can whip up support on this forum.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> By saying that disintegration of Pakistan was a good step we are insulting the martyrs of Pakistan Movement.



An emotional blackmail, what?

Did the martyrs of the Pak Movement declare that the Bengalis should be treated second class. So, why drag them when their intention could have been sound only to be corrupted by those who loved power more than anything Islam!


----------



## roadrunner

Salim said:


> RR,
> 
> Why are you pleading?
> 
> If Pakistan has done nothing wrong, then speak out and not plead as if on bended knees.
> 
> And I am sure you can whip up support on this forum.



Just answer the points I mentioned if you can. This is just irrelevant. If you have the answers to my points, let's hear them.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Tough call for you?

The Bangladeshis who have faced the inhuman behaviour of West Pakistanis have answered.

They are the best judge since they suffered!


----------



## roadrunner

No answer then..Fair enough. Anyone else?


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> You obviously don't understand my views. My views are these.
> 
> The 3 million figure of war of independence is a figment of Bengali nationalist propaganda.
> The Muktihi Bahini committed war crimes, just like the Razakhars, just like the PA, just like the Bharatis..noone was innocent so holding a "holohoax" war museum in Dhakka is pure hypocrisy
> The Muktihi Bahini and Bengali Nationalists are guilty of propagating myths and lies such as the Jessore Massacre which was committed by Bengalis and blamed on PA. If they can lie so much over one incident, how many more incidents have they lied about?
> The discrimination of Bengalis in particular did not exist - this is agree is controversial, but I have not seen a full proof case to demonstrate there was discrimination between the West and East wings by the government. On the contrary I know Ayub Khan tried to stimulate the enrollment of Bengalis in PA, but it failed because the Bengalis did not want to join.
> The war of independence was a result not of real discrimination between the East and West, it was as a result of the incitement to revolt in the speeched of Mujib that the people from the East wing fell for hook, line & etc.
> My final "point" is more a question. Given all this, why do  Bengalis like yourself  want to keep the myth alive about there being a one way genocide when this has been proven not to be the case?
> 
> If you want to discuss these views instead of resorting to poor quality jokes and insults, then prove to me how my views are wrong..it's better than cursing which only makes you look foolish yourself.



look first of all i am a Canadian of Indian origin my family did moved to east west Pakistan after partition from India i speak Hindi/Urdu for your kind information so please next time don't rush to conclusion regarding anyone's ethnicity on the basis of ones viewpoint when you don't know the person . next time you shall be reported am i clear ? & can you please show me were did i cursed proof please you can believe whatever you wont it want make a drop of a difference to my viewpoints.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Salim said:


> Tough call for you?
> 
> The Bangladeshis who have faced the inhuman behaviour of West Pakistanis have answered.
> 
> They are the best judge since they suffered!



totally agree with you


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> look first of all i am a Canadian of Indian origin my family did moved to east west Pakistan after partition from India i speak Hindi/Urdu for your kind information so please next time don't rush to conclusion regarding anyone's ethnicity on the basis of ones viewpoint when you don't know the person . next time you shall be reported am i clear ? & can you please show me were did i cursed proof please you can believe whatever you wont it want make a drop of a difference to my viewpoints.



Here's the list of my points, just in case you missed them earlier. What exactly are you disagreeing with me about and why? 

The 3 million figure of war of independence is a figment of Bengali nationalist propaganda.
The Muktihi Bahini committed war crimes, just like the Razakhars, just like the PA, just like the Bharatis..noone was innocent so holding a "holohoax" war museum in Dhakka is pure hypocrisy
The Muktihi Bahini and Bengali Nationalists are guilty of propagating myths and lies such as the Jessore Massacre which was committed by Bengalis and blamed on PA. If they can lie so much over one incident, how many more incidents have they lied about?
The discrimination of Bengalis in particular did not exist - this is agree is controversial, but I have not seen a full proof case to demonstrate there was discrimination between the West and East wings by the government. On the contrary I know Ayub Khan tried to stimulate the enrollment of Bengalis in PA, but it failed because the Bengalis did not want to join.
The war of independence was a result not of real discrimination between the East and West, it was as a result of the incitement to revolt in the speeched of Mujib that the people from the East wing fell for hook, line & etc.
My final "point" is more a question. Given all this, why do (people like you - Edited) want to keep the myth alive about there being a one way genocide when this has been proven not to be the case? I suspect this final question has already been answered in your most recent admission that you're from Bharat originally though.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> Here's the list of my points, just in case you missed them earlier. What exactly are you disagreeing with me about and why?
> 
> The 3 million figure of war of independence is a figment of Bengali nationalist propaganda.
> The Muktihi Bahini committed war crimes, just like the Razakhars, just like the PA, just like the Bharatis..noone was innocent so holding a "holohoax" war museum in Dhakka is pure hypocrisy
> The Muktihi Bahini and Bengali Nationalists are guilty of propagating myths and lies such as the Jessore Massacre which was committed by Bengalis and blamed on PA. If they can lie so much over one incident, how many more incidents have they lied about?
> The discrimination of Bengalis in particular did not exist - this is agree is controversial, but I have not seen a full proof case to demonstrate there was discrimination between the West and East wings by the government. On the contrary I know Ayub Khan tried to stimulate the enrollment of Bengalis in PA, but it failed because the Bengalis did not want to join.
> The war of independence was a result not of real discrimination between the East and West, it was as a result of the incitement to revolt in the speeched of Mujib that the people from the East wing fell for hook, line & etc.
> My final "point" is more a question. Given all this, why do (people like you - Edited) want to keep the myth alive about there being a one way genocide when this has been proven not to be the case? I suspect this final question has already been answered in your most recent admission that you're from Bharat originally though.



stop picking on my damn origin do you get me its none of your damn business


----------



## roadrunner

Whatever, you obviously can't answer any of the points with any solid references that haven't been discredited by now. So we don't really disagree at all, no need to get so emotional and curse Pakistan when you don't even know what it is you are arguing about.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> Whatever, you obviously can't answer any of the points with any solid references that haven't been discredited by now. So we don't really disagree at all, no need to get so emotional and curse Pakistan when you don't even know what it is you are arguing about.



let me say one thing very clearly that i am not cursing Pakistan you obviously have a wrong impression about my views or making things up.


----------



## akzaman

*The Bengali Holocaust *

London, 6/13/71). The Sunday Times....."The Government's policy for East Bengal was spelled out to me in the Eastern Command headquarters at Dacca. It has three elements: 

The Bengalis have proved themselves unreliable and must be ruled by West Pakistanis; 
The Bengalis will have to be re-educated along proper Islamic lines. The - Islamization of the masses - this is the official jargon - is intended to eliminate secessionist tendencies and provide a strong religious bond with West Pakistan; 

When the Hindus have been eliminated by death and fight, their property will be used as a golden carrot to win over the under privileged Muslim middle-class. This will provide the base for erecting administrative and political structures in the fu ture." 

According to New York Times (3/28/71) 10,000 people were killed; New York Times (3/29/71) 5,000-7,000 people were killed in Dhaka; The Sydney Morning Herald (3/29/71) 10,000 - 100,000 were killed; New York Times (4/1/71) 35,000 were killed in Dhaka. There is only one word for this: genocide.

These figures tell you the seriousness of the situation created by the Pakistani army. Although the actual figure may be never known. Number of Bengalis slaughtered by the Pakistani army during different periods of 1971. The list is as follows:

Who reported When reported Number in millions 
The Baltimore Sun 5/14/71 0.5 
The Momento,Caracas 6/13/71 0.5 - 1.0 
Washington Daily News 6/30/71 0.2 
World Bank Report June, 71 0.2 
Die Zeit, Bonn 7/9/71 0.5 
New York Times 7/14/71 0.20 - 0.25 
Wall Street Journal 7/23/71 0.2 - 1.0 
The Christian Sci. Mon. 7/31/71 0.25 - 1.00 
Newsweek 8/2/71 0.25 
Time 9/2/71 0.2 - 1.0 
Newsweek 3/27/72 1.5 
National Geographic Sept. 1972 3.0 

http://www.virtualbangladesh.com/history/holocaust.html


----------



## blitz

Roadrunner, im sorry to burst your bubble, but actions speak louder than words. All your cosmetic denials aside, the Bengalis have already answered your questions. Bangladesh exists !! Thats proof enough that you are wrong, at least in the mind of Bangladeshis, and thats what matters. It does not matter what you or West Pakistanis think, because the subject is BD and they have the final say about their history.


----------



## roadrunner

Akzaman said:


> The Baltimore Sun 5/14/71 0.5
> The Momento,Caracas 6/13/71 0.5 - 1.0
> Washington Daily News 6/30/71 0.2
> World Bank Report June, 71 0.2
> Die Zeit, Bonn 7/9/71 0.5
> New York Times 7/14/71 0.20 - 0.25
> Wall Street Journal 7/23/71 0.2 - 1.0
> The Christian Sci. Mon. 7/31/71 0.25 - 1.00
> Newsweek 8/2/71 0.25
> Time 9/2/71 0.2 - 1.0
> Newsweek 3/27/72 1.5
> National Geographic Sept. 1972 3.0



^^ The person who wrote this on "virtual Bangladesh", which I think is typical of some of the other Bangladeshi websites out there, is obviously a math buffoon. A quick look at those numbers would have any 15 year old Math high school student in hysterics at the point he's trying to prove. Here are his summary statistics. 

Mean numbers of people killed = 866,666 illusionary Bengalis 
Pooled standard deviation = 794,393 illusionary Bengalis. 

Mean&#177;sd = 900,000&#177;*800,000* illusionary Bengalis. 

In other words, the maximum number of Bengalis killed on the basis of his summary is 1,700,000, the minimum number is 100,000. Both are equally as likely. If you take into account that these are highly inflated since it was the Bharatis who wrote what happened to every foreign news outlet after the war, these figures would in reality be much much less. Still, at least "virtual bangladesh" has managed to prove its other stories of 3 million killed to be statistically impossible


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> ^^ The person who wrote this on "virtual Bangladesh", which I think is typical of some of the other Bangladeshi websites out there, is obviously a math buffoon. A quick look at those numbers would have any 15 year old Math high school student in hysterics at the point he's trying to prove. Here are his summary statistics.
> 
> Mean numbers of people killed = 866,666 illusionary Bengalis
> Pooled standard deviation = 794,393 illusionary Bengalis.
> 
> Mean±sd = 900,000±*800,000* illusionary Bengalis.
> 
> In other words, the maximum number of Bengalis killed on the basis of his summary is 1,700,000, the minimum number is 100,000. Both are equally as likely. If you take into account that these are highly inflated since it was the Bharatis who wrote what happened to every foreign news outlet after the war, these figures would in reality be much much less. Still, at least "virtual bangladesh" has managed to prove its other stories of 3 million killed to be statistically impossible



the report is from the sundaytimes read carefully



Akzaman said:


> London, 6/13/71). The Sunday Times:


 in order to understand that its from a well reputed news paper one needs to have the reading power


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> the report is from the sundaytimes read carefully
> 
> in order to understand that its from a well reputed news paper one needs to have the reading power




Oh really!! Your "powers of reading" must have also made you notice this I suppose




The virtualbangladesh report said:


> London, *6/13/71*). The Sunday Times....."




The Sunday Times article written in 1971. Then at the end the table quotes at least 2 articles written well after 1971..It would be so unlike virtualbangladesh to invent things though, wouldnt it? 




Thevirtualbangladeshreport said:


> Newsweek .....................*3/27/72 *...........1.5
> National Geographic.........*Sept. 1972*.........3.0




In fact if you look at the " ", you'll see they've used only a small section of a Sunday Times report, but I really wouldn't even trust that all that is accurate. It quotes no figures within the Sunday Times article. Your powers of reading will no doubts prove powerful once again.


----------



## salman nedian

Salim Bhai,
You have to think from heart when u are thinking or speaking about your motherland this is not the emotional blackmailing.

i cant understand why people dont realize that those who commited war crimes in 1971 were Indian agents and could be the Indian army Personnel there was no way to identify them.They were mixed with "Mukti Bahini" that was the actual problem i would say.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> Oh really!! Your "powers of reading" must have also made you notice this I suppose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sunday Times article written in 1971. Then at the end the table quotes at least 2 articles written well after 1971..It would be so unlike virtualbangladesh to invent things though, wouldnt it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact if you look at the " ", you'll see they've used only a small section of a Sunday Times report, but I really wouldn't even trust that all that is accurate. It quotes no figures within the Sunday Times article. Your powers of reading will no doubts prove powerful once again.



so true its good for you that retreated a practical face saving move i am iimpressed


----------



## genmirajborgza786

salman nedian said:


> Salim Bhai,
> You have to think from heart when u are thinking or speaking about your motherland this is not the emotional blackmailing.
> 
> i cant understand why people dont realize that those who commited war crimes in 1971 were Indian agents and could be the Indian army Personnel there was no way to identify them.They were mixed with "Mukti Bahini" that was the actual problem i would say.



sir if thats the case then the world history writers will have to be the craziest of people around unfortunately they are not.


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> so true its good for you that retreated a practical face saving move i am iimpressed



I guess you feel stupid, which sort of summarizes your posting quality. Good riddance.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

salman nedian said:


> Salim Bhai,
> You have to think from heart when u are thinking or speaking about your motherland this is not the emotional blackmailing.
> 
> i cant understand why people dont realize that those who commited war crimes in 1971 were Indian agents and could be the Indian army Personnel there was no way to identify them.They were mixed with "Mukti Bahini" that was the actual problem i would say.



Ah! Of course, the Indian agents!

The world was blind.

Bought of by the Hindu Lalas, what?

And I presume you think the Bangladeshis were fools and they could not make out Indian agents from Pak military men from Camps in their areas!

You sure love to self delude and run away from unpleasant facts!

Don't you think that the Mukti Bahini was actually Chinese in Bangladeshi garb? That would complete the script for your fascinating fairy tale!


----------



## akzaman

*Violation of Human Rights and Genocide in Bangladesh *

It was the night between March 25 and 26, 1971; it was the grisliest night the Bengali nation has ever known. The forces of evil let loose by the Army rulers of Pakistan continued, for nine months at a stretch, the holocaust begun on March 25 with ever increasing intensity each day using newer and ghastlier methods of extermination of the Bengalis. It is not my intention however, to recount here the acts of brutality perpetrated by the Pakistani marauders during that period. For, it is not pleasant to ruminate on such brutal scenes as bustee people being felled by swarms of bullets while coming out, screaming, of their tenements set ablaze by flame throwers; or the still body of Sujit, a Dacca University student, in a pool of blood holding fast his mother's letter asking him, in view of the troubled situation, to return to his village home; or the mutilated corpse of the old and infirm gatekeeper of the Dacca University Women's Hall, Nani Rajbhor, who while asleep was shot dead at a point?blank range with the corner of his mosquito net lifted ; or the dead body of Moju Mia of Jinjira and that of his baby boy nestling in his father's breast both of whom were killed, while running for life, by a single bullet piercing through their backs. The history of liberation of Bangladesh is replete with hundreds of thousands of similar acts of brutality of which these are but a few examples. Thanks to the world press that many such stories have been carried to the farthest corner of the globe. 

While the incidents of 'kill, loot and rape' in Bangladesh are tragic in themselves, more tragic is the fact that in their bid to 'crush' the Bengali nation, the Pakistani army have thrown to the winds all the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which Pakistan herself is a signatory. The Declaration very solemnly declares that the "recognition of the inherent dignity? and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world." (Preamble, Universal Declaration of Human Rights) But was the dignity of man respected by the Punjabi soldiers forwhom 'Bengalis and bastards' were synonymous? Was it respected when teachers were threatened with dire consequences if they indulged in 'loose talks'? Was it respected when some Dacca University teachers were humiliated day in and day out for nearly three months in a concentration camp? Was it respected when prisoners used to be double?marched to the latrine, given only? 30 seconds to evacuate the stomach and come out? Was it respected when a man was killed for his failure to recite the Kalema? 

The Human Rights Declaration envisages a world "in which human being shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear." (Preamble, U.D.H.R.) About freedom of speech, the less said the better, for there has never been any freedom of speech in the entire history of Pakistan. This is too well known to be elaborated on. About freedom of belief, would it not be sufficient to note that three million people of Bangladesh have sacrificed their lives at the altar of their belief in; a democratic and secular political order and in a just and equitable society free from all sorts of exploitation of man by man? Needless to mention also that an all?pervasive fear, and not freedom from it, engulfed each and every Bengali during the occupation period. It was because of fear that Purna Chandra Dutta, a Dacca University lecturer, assumed a Muslim name through an affidavit in the Court; so did other members of his family. After the liberation all of them have forsaken their adopted Muslim names. It was because of fear of the advancing army that Azizunnessa of Vikrampur choked her new?born baby, unintentionally though, to death so that the baby might not cry out and betray her presence to the killers. To epitomize all, was it not because of fear that 10 million people of Bangladesh took refuge in this country (India)? 

The pogrom that was begun by the Pakistani army on March 25 and continued with ever increasing ferocity till the liberation of Bangladesh completely negates Article 3 of the Human Rights Declaration which grants everyone "the right to life, liberty, and security of person". The provision of Article 5 of the Declaration that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment", has also been totally flouted. I was told by a friend of mine, who was in a concentration camp, about a Hindu prisoner who used to perform 'namaz' five times a day like the Muslims because he could escape torture only during prayer times. I know about a college professor, who was inhumanly tortured to confess that he had raped several non?Bengali women during the non?co?operation movement in March. 

Article 9 of the Declaration enjoins that "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest and exile." Facts, however, are to the contrary. In real the arrests of thousands of men, young and old, were made arbitrarily and the detainees were never given any reasons for their arrests although Article 9 Section (2) of the draft Covenant on political and civil rights states clearly? that "anyone who is arrested shall be informed at the time of arrest of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him." Mr. Kamruddin Ahmed, an ex-Ambassador; and Mr. Fazlul Karim, Cultural Officer of the Bengali Academy,Dhaka, among others, were sent to the jail by an administrative order of six months' imprisonment without any trial in the court of law. Each one of the above mentioned incidents could be multiplied indefinitely. In fact, the provisions of all the 30 articles of the Human Rights Declaration have been trampled under foot and what has happened in Bangladesh has transgressed all norms of civilized behaviour and decency and is a complete negation of human values and conscience. 

But the violation of human rights so persistently followed during the 9 months of occupation is but a part, indeed an insignificant part, of the whole story. More important is the fact that the 'master race', from the Punjab Plains executed a well?planned scheme of genocide in Bangladesh, the magnitude of which has transcended all records of known history. Flashing back one could see how indiscriminate the massacre was: a person would be killed because he is a stout young man and is a potential Mukti Fauj (freedom fighter); another, because he is an educated man a likely to give revolutionary ideas to the society; third, because he is one of the rabble and therefore must have taken part in anti?government demonstrations; fourth, because he is 'reported' to have given shelter to Mukti Bahini (freedom fighter); fifth, because he is a Hindu and therefore an Indian spy; sixth, because his movements were suspicious ; seventh, because no other pretext is available, he is a Bengali after all (is not enough to kill a person ?) ; and so on and so forth. 

http://www.bangladeshmariners.com/HmdrRprt/violat.html


----------



## su-47

The evidence of genocide in bangladesh by pakistani army is overwhelming. though the exact casuality figures are not known, it definitely stretches into the millions. There's no point denying it.

I'm proud of my country for helping the bangladeshis in their time of need


----------



## haviZsultan

akzaman said:


> *Violation of Human Rights and Genocide in Bangladesh *
> 
> It was the night between March 25 and 26, 1971; it was the grisliest night the Bengali nation has ever known. The forces of evil let loose by the Army rulers of Pakistan continued, for nine months at a stretch, the holocaust begun on March 25 with ever increasing intensity each day using newer and ghastlier methods of extermination of the Bengalis. It is not my intention however, to recount here the acts of brutality perpetrated by the Pakistani marauders during that period. For, it is not pleasant to ruminate on such brutal scenes as bustee people being felled by swarms of bullets while coming out, screaming, of their tenements set ablaze by flame throwers; or the still body of Sujit, a Dacca University student, in a pool of blood holding fast his mother's letter asking him, in view of the troubled situation, to return to his village home; or the mutilated corpse of the old and infirm gatekeeper of the Dacca University Women's Hall, Nani Rajbhor, who while asleep was shot dead at a point?blank range with the corner of his mosquito net lifted ; or the dead body of Moju Mia of Jinjira and that of his baby boy nestling in his father's breast both of whom were killed, while running for life, by a single bullet piercing through their backs. The history of liberation of Bangladesh is replete with hundreds of thousands of similar acts of brutality of which these are but a few examples. Thanks to the world press that many such stories have been carried to the farthest corner of the globe.
> 
> While the incidents of 'kill, loot and rape' in Bangladesh are tragic in themselves, more tragic is the fact that in their bid to 'crush' the Bengali nation, the Pakistani army have thrown to the winds all the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which Pakistan herself is a signatory. The Declaration very solemnly declares that the "recognition of the inherent dignity? and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world." (Preamble, Universal Declaration of Human Rights) But was the dignity of man respected by the Punjabi soldiers forwhom 'Bengalis and bastards' were synonymous? Was it respected when teachers were threatened with dire consequences if they indulged in 'loose talks'? Was it respected when some Dacca University teachers were humiliated day in and day out for nearly three months in a concentration camp? Was it respected when prisoners used to be double?marched to the latrine, given only? 30 seconds to evacuate the stomach and come out? Was it respected when a man was killed for his failure to recite the Kalema?
> 
> The Human Rights Declaration envisages a world "in which human being shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear." (Preamble, U.D.H.R.) About freedom of speech, the less said the better, for there has never been any freedom of speech in the entire history of Pakistan. This is too well known to be elaborated on. About freedom of belief, would it not be sufficient to note that three million people of Bangladesh have sacrificed their lives at the altar of their belief in; a democratic and secular political order and in a just and equitable society free from all sorts of exploitation of man by man? Needless to mention also that an all?pervasive fear, and not freedom from it, engulfed each and every Bengali during the occupation period. It was because of fear that Purna Chandra Dutta, a Dacca University lecturer, assumed a Muslim name through an affidavit in the Court; so did other members of his family. After the liberation all of them have forsaken their adopted Muslim names. It was because of fear of the advancing army that Azizunnessa of Vikrampur choked her new?born baby, unintentionally though, to death so that the baby might not cry out and betray her presence to the killers. To epitomize all, was it not because of fear that 10 million people of Bangladesh took refuge in this country (India)?
> 
> The pogrom that was begun by the Pakistani army on March 25 and continued with ever increasing ferocity till the liberation of Bangladesh completely negates Article 3 of the Human Rights Declaration which grants everyone "the right to life, liberty, and security of person". The provision of Article 5 of the Declaration that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment", has also been totally flouted. I was told by a friend of mine, who was in a concentration camp, about a Hindu prisoner who used to perform 'namaz' five times a day like the Muslims because he could escape torture only during prayer times. I know about a college professor, who was inhumanly tortured to confess that he had raped several non?Bengali women during the non?co?operation movement in March.
> 
> Article 9 of the Declaration enjoins that "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest and exile." Facts, however, are to the contrary. In real the arrests of thousands of men, young and old, were made arbitrarily and the detainees were never given any reasons for their arrests although Article 9 Section (2) of the draft Covenant on political and civil rights states clearly? that "anyone who is arrested shall be informed at the time of arrest of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him." Mr. Kamruddin Ahmed, an ex-Ambassador; and Mr. Fazlul Karim, Cultural Officer of the Bengali Academy,Dhaka, among others, were sent to the jail by an administrative order of six months' imprisonment without any trial in the court of law. Each one of the above mentioned incidents could be multiplied indefinitely. In fact, the provisions of all the 30 articles of the Human Rights Declaration have been trampled under foot and what has happened in Bangladesh has transgressed all norms of civilized behaviour and decency and is a complete negation of human values and conscience.
> 
> But the violation of human rights so persistently followed during the 9 months of occupation is but a part, indeed an insignificant part, of the whole story. More important is the fact that the 'master race', from the Punjab Plains executed a well?planned scheme of genocide in Bangladesh, the magnitude of which has transcended all records of known history. Flashing back one could see how indiscriminate the massacre was: a person would be killed because he is a stout young man and is a potential Mukti Fauj (freedom fighter); another, because he is an educated man a likely to give revolutionary ideas to the society; third, because he is one of the rabble and therefore must have taken part in anti?government demonstrations; fourth, because he is 'reported' to have given shelter to Mukti Bahini (freedom fighter); fifth, because he is a Hindu and therefore an Indian spy; sixth, because his movements were suspicious ; seventh, because no other pretext is available, he is a Bengali after all (is not enough to kill a person ?) ; and so on and so forth.
> 
> http://www.bangladeshmariners.com/HmdrRprt/violat.html


 
Okay my freind i will not deny it. It was just poor governance, just bad governance by the damn power-hungry corrupt bhutto bastard and idiotic support for him by yahya khan. Bangladeshis never wanted freedom until Bhutto directly told the army to commit murder in the area etc. But i do think the article is a little biased man and overdone and is aimed at bringing us down. Anyway indians hav a chance now to mess around abt my admitting this... but they shud remember that their persecution of us and the ongoing persecution of the kashmiris is much worse than anything pakistan can ever do to Bangladesh and neither does ur country treat minorities fairly...


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## haviZsultan

dimension117 said:


> Okay my freind i will not deny it. It was just poor governance, just bad governance by the damn power-hungry corrupt bhutto bastard and idiotic support for him by yahya khan. Bangladeshis never wanted freedom until Bhutto directly told the army to commit murder in the area etc. But i do think the article is a little biased man and overdone and is aimed at bringing us down. Anyway indians hav a chance now to mess around abt my admitting this... but they shud remember that their persecution of us and the ongoing persecution of the kashmiris is much worse than anything pakistan can ever do to Bangladesh and neither does ur country treat minorities fairly...



And i'd like to add that we are sorry f4 wat happened in ur "new" country and the majority of us did not approve of this treatment. Hope that our new bhuto b**** gets assasinated


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## Bull

dimension117 said:


> Okay my freind i will not deny it. It was just poor governance, just bad governance by the damn power-hungry corrupt bhutto bastard and idiotic support for him by yahya khan. Bangladeshis never wanted freedom until Bhutto directly told the army to commit murder in the area etc. But i do think the article is a little biased man and overdone and is aimed at bringing us down. Anyway indians hav a chance now to mess around abt my admitting this... but they shud remember that their persecution of us and the ongoing persecution of the kashmiris is much worse than anything pakistan can ever do to Bangladesh and neither does ur country treat minorities fairly...



so you basically mean those murders shud be pardoned bcoz you could have done worser..!!!


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## haviZsultan

su-47 said:


> The evidence of genocide in bangladesh by pakistani army is overwhelming. though the exact casuality figures are not known, it definitely stretches into the millions. There's no point denying it.
> 
> I'm proud of my country for helping the bangladeshis in their time of need



Yh, there is evidence...but let me remind u of the fact of how muzlemz have been persecuted constantly by ur governments, how the kashmiris are still opressed, and if u treated ur ppl so well why did pakistan break away f4m u? 

Ohhh... ofcourse u are proud of it... Let me tell u why you supported Bangladesh, because the same thing happened to u gyz... u lost pakistan did'nt u? so this was the time to take revenge. it was pure veneance was it not? U did not support the bengalis out of ur so called "love for bangladesh"... u did it because u got a chance to strike at pakistan wen it had a civil war and it offered u opportunities to take new land, resources etc. U were enjoying pakistanis slaughtering themselves u never gave a damn about bangladesh...

And did u forget about the land u took from Bangladesh. If u loved them so much why did u take all these settlements f4m them? 

Atleast we admit that we did sumthing wrong by persecting bengalis (Zulfiqar the bastard persecuted them not we as in Pakistanis) and it ashames us... but where do u stand? 
U say Kashmir is our fathers land and u stand on it like a bull rooted to the ground while kashmiris beg f4 freedom... they are constantly tortured by ur army. U luk only f4 a chance to put us down and make fun of us which is the sole reason of ur being here on this site but u ignore what u hav done urself and wat u are still doing. 

 Congratulations! U are proud... well continue being proud... continue being proud of the fact that indian muslim nationals are now taking pakistani passports, continue being proud of the fact that kashmiris never accepted ur govt. even though it has been 60 years and continue to being proud of ur gr8 history.


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## haviZsultan

Bull said:


> so you basically mean those murders shud be pardoned bcoz you could have done worser..!!!



wat are u talking about? Read Properly. wen did i say any murderers shud be pardoned? Z.A.B is dead dude. He was killed by Zia ul haq, hanged like a dog... if u were talkin abt sumthin else lemme knw cauz u are'nt clear.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

dimension,

What has Kashmir and what Indians do got to do with Bangaldesh Liberation and the atrocities?

Now, there is a feeling that some of the posters perpetuate that Pakistan is beyond a whiff of wrong doing and is purer than the driven snow. Therefore, don't you think there should dawn a sense of reality of existence amongst those who claim they are purer than driven snow and should they not remove the cobwebs of self delusion? And there are some who chuck in a few religious verses so that it shuts up all from debate!

1derful dlooshun! dat iz da storee.

Are we on the cell phone or mobile for SMS text? Awfully Dfikalt 2 fathom! And anyway I don't no SMS.

No country is perfect and that is the reality.


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## haviZsultan

Salim sed: What has Kashmir and what Indians do got to do with Bangaldesh Liberation and the atrocities?

See thats what. u ignore the problems u gyz create and the abuses u are responsible f4 while u keep looking f4 a chance to pounce on us... U remember describing india as "a jungle of man-eating tigers?" Yes, thats whats going on, the "man-eating tigers" on this site are trying to eat us and we are defending ourselves! Just tell me straight why do u want to keep the circle of conversation on pakistan and its problems while completely ignoring or denying ur own... ppl in india are dying of proverty even as we speak picking food from gutters, farmers kill themselves because they can't grow enuf food and u are here giving us lessons and telling us what we did wrong. 

Salim sed: Now, there is a feeling that some of the posters perpetuate that Pakistan is beyond a whiff of wrong doing and is purer than the driven snow. Therefore, don't you think there should dawn a sense of reality of existence amongst those who claim they are purer than driven snow and should they not remove the cobwebs of self delusion? And there are some who chuck in a few religious verses so that it shuts up all from debate!

<Man the posters knw we did a wrong thing by killing those bengalis but it was on the orders of a corrupt power-hungry bastard but they don't want to admit it to an opportunist audiance! Furthermore u are trying to exagerate events. thousands were killed yeah but not millions...Anyway we did say that we were wrong... u gyz cannot even say that even though u have been wrong many more times than we were... Instead u are carrying ur head high like sum gr8 hypocrate superstar infact happy f4 ur countries history and then u also try to dodge questions like kashmir and discrimination in ur own country. Salim i hav never heard u say anything bad about ur country or admit that the illegal occupation of kashmir against the popular will of the people is wrong even if u believe it and then u want us Pakistanis to talk all day about the wrong that was done becuz of a heretic bastard like z.bhutto? I find it hard to respect u, dude>

No country is perfect and that is the reality.

<Ya i never sed that but i can say that our countries history and our peoples purposes are much cleaner than yours!>


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Look I am used to normal drills followed by forums i.e. quotes and proper English.

It is immensely difficult to follow your type of spelling since it is quite taxing especially when it is not your first language as is obvious.

And then you don't use quote boxes, leaving the other searching for the quotes.

It is 1229 hours here i.e.midnight half nearly. Will come back to answer your queries.


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## haviZsultan

Nice Excuse!


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## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Look I am used to normal drills followed by forums i.e. quotes and proper English.
> 
> It is immensely difficult to follow your type of spelling since it is quite taxing especially when it is not your first language as is obvious.
> 
> And then you don't use quote boxes, leaving the other searching for the quotes.
> 
> It is 1229 hours here i.e.midnight half nearly. Will come back to answer your queries.



 Salim on Fire! 

You know what i am used to... i am used to playing futball in bed. Anyway how is the "jungle full of tigers" salim? Oh yeah and thats a gud way to dodge a hard question... i cud'nt read it! Ya, ya very taxing... the difficulties that u went thru trying to decipher "the secret message" shatter my hart... i know it must have been like waging a jihad reading that "impossible to read post" The post must also have been in invinsible ink... Oh its so late at night! 12.29! U really shud go to sleep now... its too late. Don't u have parents who tell u to go to sleep earlier and tuck u into bed and kiss u gudbye?... My parents wud KILL me if i did'nt go to sleep at ... 10 i guess. It is so gr8 to find a friend from our neighboring country. I mean it impresses me, how u come to this site every single day just to show LUUUVVE to ur Pakistani brothers. Ur determination and commitment to having good Relationships with ur Pakistani brothers across the border and ur  supporting our nation with ur amazing views bring tears to my eyes (of happiness of course). 

Salim is the "Tiger of Peace" If ppl follow his lead the world will be a better place

Keep it up! Now cauz i am here i think u shud try the "dodging" more often


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## roadrunner

akzaman said:


> It was the night between March 25 and 26, 1971; it was the grisliest night the Bengali nation has ever known. The forces of evil let loose by the Army rulers of Pakistan continued, for nine months at a stretch, the holocaust begun on March 25 with ever increasing intensity http://www.bangladeshmariners.com/HmdrRprt/violat.html



Another great link with no bias


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## roadrunner

dimension117 said:


> Okay my freind i will not deny it. It was just poor governance, just bad governance by the damn power-hungry corrupt bhutto bastard and idiotic support for him by yahya khan. Bangladeshis never wanted freedom until Bhutto directly told the army to commit murder in the area etc. .





dimension117 said:


> Yh, there is evidence...but let me remind



If you don't know what you're talking about, don't spam the whole thread with the same useless comments. There is no evidence for genocide of all Bengalis. Not a single piece of evidence. If you have any, quote it. And mujib made plans for liberation well before bhutto and yahya had entered into any political leadership.


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## genmirajborgza786

dimension117 said:


> Salim on Fire!
> 
> You know what i am used to... i am used to playing futball in bed. Anyway how is the "jungle full of tigers" salim
> 
> Salim is the "Tiger of Peace"



now what on God's green earth have to do regarding you playing football in the bed ! with the creation of Bangladesh? 

as for a jungle full of tigers well quiet frankly i wouldn't like them to roam around in the city center that's for sure my friend.


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## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> If you don't know what you're talking about, don't spam the whole thread with the same useless comments. There is no evidence for genocide of all Bengalis. Not a single piece of evidence. If you have any, quote it. And mujib made plans for liberation well before bhutto and yahya had entered into any political leadership.



& guess what he did liberated Bangladesh & got the job done now that's what we in Canada call a great & successful leader is all about 
thank you for honoring him it was long overdue on your part .


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## haviZsultan

roadrunner said:


> If you don't know what you're talking about, don't spam the whole thread with the same useless comments. There is no evidence for genocide of all Bengalis. Not a single piece of evidence. If you have any, quote it. And mujib made plans for liberation well before bhutto and yahya had entered into any political leadership.



Z.A.B was known for his corruption and suppression of political opponents, his cheap nationalization schemes and force used with balochis is wat we still pay for... ya it was'nt genocide as there is no evidence west wanted to eliminate all bengalis but too much force was used to contain the east rather than peace. U say i dunno wat i'm talkin abt, open ur eyes this is wat evry site and article says, even our own and then u give no evidence that mujib made plans f4 liberation long bf4, get evidence and i'll be the first to believe... ok, thats enough lets not fight with each other and be a target f4 the "tigers"... 

Haan bengaliz se bhi lar ley... as if the tigers are not enough.

Keywords:
Tigers= Indians (Source: Salim <Salim was kind enough to describe India as a jungle of man-eating tigers check the Kashmir Issues Section>)


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## akzaman

*Skewing the history of rape in 1971 A prescription for reconciliation?*

Nayanika Mookherjee runs a critical eye over Sarmila Bose's controversial analysis of the violence committed during the Liberation War 

This is a discussion of Sarmila Bose's article: "Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971" (EPW, Oct 8, 2005). A version of this paper was first presented by Dr Bose at a two-day conference, on June 28-29, 2005, organized by the historian branch of the United States Department of State titled "South Asia in Crisis: United States Policy, 1961-1972." This was arranged to mark the release of declassified US records relating to the theme of the conference. 

As an Indian working in Bangladesh for nearly a decade on the public memories of sexual violence during the Bangladesh war of 1971, I was particularly struck by the author's use of the phrase "civil war" to refer to the Bangladesh war. Most Bangladeshis denounce the use of the term "civil war" to refer to the Bangladesh war as it deflects attention from its genocidal connotations.Instead, they semantically and politically distinguish the Bangladesh war as either muktijuddho (liberation war) or shadhinotar juddho(independence war).

It is also important to note that occurring at the juncture of Cold War politics, with the United States government supporting Pakistan during 1971, and the Indian government assisting the East Pakistani guerrilla fighters, the genocidal connotations of the Bangladesh war remains unacknowledged, till date. The use of the phrase "civil war" in the title of the article suggests that the author was in agreement with the Pakistani and US government's version of events of 1971. Yet the paper was claiming to provide "an impartial account." I was intrigued. 

Through what Bose refers to as "case studies," she tries to highlight how violence was inflicted by both sides -- the Pakistani army and the East Pakistani liberation fighters -- during the 1971 war. She also refers to the lack of incidents of rape during the Bangladesh war in her "cases" in a small paragraph found at the end of her long article. She suggests a prescription for reconciliation through an acknowledgement of violence inflicted by all parties involved.

Soon after the Washington conference, the points made in her paper were promptly picked up by the Pakistani newspapers: The Daily Times (Hasan, June 30,2005; Editorial, July 2, 2005) and Dawn (Iqbal, July 7, 2005). Both refer to the violence inflicted by both sides, and the absence of rape during the Bangladesh war. The entry on Sarmila Bose in Wikipedia, the popular internet encyclopedia, reiterates only the brief paragraph on rape. 

In a response to Uttorshuri, a Bangladeshi web mail group, on July 2, 2005, Bose said: "The heading given to the Daily Times, Pakistan, report is incorrect and not the finding of my study." Her work unleashed a barrage of criticism in Bangladesh and her research methods have been attacked as being shoddy and biased. 

Collingwood (1945) has shown that historical "facts" are the reconstitution of the past in the historian's minds, involving the selection and interpretation of the past, as history is the choice of a particular expository style that is itself determined historically. 

My discussion of Bose's article here, nearly ten months after the publication of her article in EPW, is an attempt to show the various responses to Bose's work, her response to these feedbacks and to highlight Bose's expository style which is appropriated by varied configurations. 

In this discussion, I critically address Bose's exposition about: a) violence being inflicted on both sides, b) the lack of instances of rape in her "cases," and c) interrogate her formulation of reconciliation and highlight its implications on sub-continental politics.

*Violence inflicted on both sides*
All parties involved are shown to "commit acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their share of humanity with Bengalis, Biharis and West Pakistanis helping one another in the midst of mayhem," in Bose's article. This is evidenced by the Pakistan army targeting adult males while sparing women and children. However, local Bengali "loyalists"/collaborators, and not the Pakistani army, are involved in inflicting violence on their fellow Bengalis and the killing of intellectuals. 

According to these accounts the Pakistani army did not inflict all the violence. This decontextualized account of Bengali collaborators does not recognize the triggers and advantages that the presence of, and collaboration with, the Pakistani army created. It misses the analytical point that in all wars local collaborators become the indispensable foot-soldiers of the institutionalized military paraphernalia. 

The Pakistani army is portrayed as kind, but violent when provoked, whereas the Bengalis inflict violence "for unfathomable reasons." The situation in Bangladesh during 1971 is described through phrases like: "widespread lawlessness during March," "encouraged to break the law," "urban terrorism," and "rebels." 

The treatment of the Pakistani army namely: "refusal of Bengalis to sell them food and fuel, being jeered and spat at  and the widespread disregard of curfew orders, murder of army personnel," are not considered to be examples of resistance and opposition, but are cited as instances of the suffering of the Pakistani army and an exhibition of "extraordinary restraint of the army under provocation." 

The "rule of law" remains with the Pakistani army as they "secure" and "gain control" over territories. Army reaction is cited as "overwhelming" while the rebels are "disorganised and amateurish" who for "unfathomable reasons  take pot-shots at the advancing units in the bazaar which triggered an overwhelming reaction from the army."

There is no commentary on the contestations that exist in Bangladesh in relation to the varied national narratives of 1971. As a result, the observation by the former liberation fighter Iqbal: "This must be the only country in the world where there are two views on the independence of the country," remains unanalysed. 

As in-depth reading of various critical literature on war and violence (Butalia 1998; Das 1995; Nordstrom 2004) would show liberation and independence of countries are not homogenous narratives, and contain within their folds multiple contesting interrogations of wars through which countries become free. This is more so the case in Bangladesh (Hitchens 2001), given its fractured histories of partitions and independence. 

Also, Nixon's reference to Bangladesh as the "place" remains uncommented upon. This article, which was first presented in a conference hosted by the US department of State, is particularly conspicuous in the absence of any critical examination of the US support for Pakistan's role in the Bangladesh war of 1971, in the context of Cold War calculations. 

The article is helpful in addressing the ethnicization of the army as "Punjabis," and in bringing out some of the nuances of the Pakistani army. That wars and conflicts are rife with instances of violence, kindness, cowardice, complicity, contradictions by the same individuals is not anything new and has been highlighted by various feminists, critical researchers and filmmakers within Bangladesh (Akhtar et al. 2001; Choudhury 2001; Kabir 2003; Masud 1999, 2000).

They show the multiple, contradictory, subjectivities of the Bangladesh war experience, and the violence inflicted upon the poor, women, Biharis, and adivasis. In my own work, I have encountered similar complicities and contradictions. Rather than citing these experiences as ahistorical and apolitical "facts," they need to be located at the crossroads of local and national politics and histories.

The earlier mentioned formulation by Collingwood is significant here. In her other writings, Bose has attempted to go beyond Indo-Pakistani enmities. She highlights the various symbolic roles of a flag, and the possible repercussions of possessing a Pakistani flag in India (Bose 2003). In the Christian Science Monitor she argues (Bose and Milam 2005) in support of the sale of F-16s to Pakistan as a stabilizing factor within world and sub-continental geo-politics. In the EPW article, the nature of her expository style and presentation of "facts" make her "cases" representative of war-time experiences of all in Bangladesh.

*Skewing the history of rape *
The small paragraph, located in the last page of the article, relating to the absence of rape in the "cases" has been highlighted as evidence that the Pakistani army did not rape. In her response to Uttorshuri, Bose says: "The issue of rape amounted to about 100 words out of a nearly 6,500 word paper on the subject of patterns of violence in 1971." An issue as contentious as the "patterns" of violence of rape can be claimed to be absent, through only 100 words! Bose explicates: "As I pointed out in the discussion that followed, there is evidence elsewhere that rape certainly occurred in 1971. But it seems -- from this study and other works -- that it may not have occurred in all the instances it is alleged to have occurred."

Bose's comment that rapes did occur elsewhere in 1971 is absent in her EPW article. In it she emphasizes the need to distinguish between the instances where rape occurred and where it did not. Throughout, it shows that the Bengalis raped Biharis while the Pakistani army did not rape anyone during the war. Also, it is not very clear which "cases" are being referred to in the statement: the rapes "may not have occurred in all the instances they are alleged to have occurred." Rather than this generalized statement, it would have been more transparent scholarship to cite the specific "cases" where the rapes were alleged which the research instead finds, is absent.

Bose shows, in the case of "mutinies" by "rebels," that "there was assault and abduction" of women. The Pakistani army however, "always" targeted adult males while sparing women and children. The Hamdoodur Rahman Commission (2000) established by the Pakistani government, while referring to the attack and rape of pro-Pakistani elements by Bengalis, also cites various instances of rape.

Eyewitness accounts can also be found in the eighth volume of the Dolil (Rahman 1982-85: 106, 192, 385). There is literature from the 1970s (Greer 1972; Brownmiller 1975) and recent scholarship and films based on oral history from within Bangladesh (Akhtar 2001; Choudhury 2001; Guhathakurta 1996; Ibrahim 1994, 1995; Kabir 2003; Masud 2000) which shows that the Pakistani army committed rapes and highlights the complexities of these violent encounters. Bose makes no reference to any of these documentations. 

Recently, in Bangladesh, various women from different socio-economic backgrounds have narrated their violent experiences of rape by the Pakistani army and local collaborators. The well-known sculptor, Ferdousy Priyobhashini, has been vocal about her war-time experiences and the role of Pakistani army and Bengalis. My own work with various women who were raped during the war shows the contradictions of the war-time experiences while highlighting their violent encounters. All these documentations emerge as important counter-narratives to the various prevalent Bangladeshi nationalist accounts of the war. 

Emphasizing these war-time contradictions is not tantamount to a denial of the incidents of rape perpetrated by Pakistani army and their local collaborators. 

*A prescription for reconciliation?*
Reconciliation, according to Bose, is possible through an acknowledgement of violence inflicted by all parties involved. However, for her, this is hinged on an unequal reliance on literally accepting the various viewpoints of the Pakistani army and administration, drawn from secondary sources (only one interview with General Niazi is briefly quoted).

While referring to the innumerable publications on 1971 as a "cottage industry," Bose seems to negate the emotive expressions of her informants as "the cultivation of an unhealthy victim culture" and a "ghoulish competition with six million Jews in order to gain international attention." This highlights a lack of empathy with her informants, and insensitivity to their comprehension of violence.

Primo Levi's work on Auschwitz shows that individuals who have encountered and survived violence make various complicated, competitive and contradictory negotiations to inhabit their survival and "victimhood." Here, Bangladeshi testimonials are ironically the means through which war-time narratives are negated. 

The various individual accounts of violence, in turn, become muted with the prescription of "reconciliation." Significantly, for many Bangladeshis, "reconciliation" has a jarring resonance, as it is perceived to be the objective of various war-time collaborators, who are currently rehabilitated in the Bangladeshi political landscape. 

Seen only as a "place" (Nixon), a "basket case" (Kissinger), Bangladesh is stereotypically viewed internationally, and in South Asia, as a country ravaged only by poverty, floods, cyclones and, hence, in need of the saviour, interventionist, developmental paradigms. 

Here, Bangladeshi histories and politics are again delegitimized as a result of sub-continental dynamics, as there is no engagement with the wider picture in Bangladesh. 

The expositions in this article itself stand in the way of reconciliation between Bangladesh and Pakistan, and cannot provide a prescription to resolve these hostilities. War-time contradictions, complicities, nuances can be highlighted without negating the foundational violence of the history of rape of the Bangladesh war perpetrated by the Pakistani army and the local collaborators.

While the Bangladesh war might be a "civil war," or Indo-Pakistan war for India and Pakistan, for most Bangladeshis it is the war of liberation and independence, even though that liberation might be interrogated in post-colonial Bangladesh. Only by recentring the issues which concern Bangladesh, along with highlighting the contradictions of wartime experiences, rather than proffering an argument which caters to Indo-Pakistan geo-political concerns, could one help the cause of reconciliation between Pakistan and Bangladesh.

This piece is adapted from "Bangladesh War of 1971: A Prescription for Reconciliation?" EPW, Vol. 41 No 36: 3901-3903. We have reprinted it here by special arrangement with EPW due to the intense interest within Bangladesh generated by the original Bose article that Dr Mookherjee discusses.

Dr Nayanika Mookherjee is a Lecturer in the Sociology Department in Lancaster University and a Research Fellow for the Society of South Asian Studies, British Academy.

*References*
Akhtar, Shaheen, Suraiya Begum, Hameeda Hossain, Sultana Kamal, and Meghna Guhathakurta, eds. 2001. Narir Ekattor O Juddhoporoborti Koththo Kahini (Oral History Accounts of Women's Experiences During 1971 and After the War). Dhaka: Ain-O-Shalish-Kendro (ASK). 

Bose, Sarmila. 2005. "Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971," Economic and Political Weekly, October 8, 2005.http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?root=2005&leaf=10&filename=9223&filetype=html

Bose, Sarmila and WB Milam. 2005. "The Right Stuff: F-16s to Pakistan is Wise Decision." Christian Science Monitor, April 11, 2005. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0411/p09s02-coop.html

Bose, Sarmila. 2003. "What's in a Flag?" The Daily Times (Pakistan), September 23, 2003. http://www.countercurrents.org/ipk-bose230903.htm

Brownmiller, Susan. 1975. Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, pp. 78-86. London: Secker & Warburg.

Butalia, Urvashi. 1998. The Other Side of Silence: Voices from the Partition of India. New Delhi: Viking Penguin India. 

Collingwood, RG. 1945. The Idea of History. Oxford: Clarendon Press.

Das, Veena. 1995. Critical Events, pp. 55-83. Delhi: Oxford University Press.

Greer, Germaine. 1972. "The Rape of the Bengali Women." Sunday Times, April 9, 1972.

Hamdoodur Rahman Commission of Enquiry. 1971. Published in August 2000. Pakistan Government.

Guhathakurta, Meghna. 1996. "Dhorshon Ekti Juddhaporadh" (Rape is a War Crime). Dhaka: Bulletin of Ain-O-Shalish Kendra (ASK), February 6-8.

Hasan, K. 2005. "Army Not Involved in 1971 Rapes." June 30, 2005. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...30-6-2005_pg1_2 

Hitchens, Christopher. 2001. The Trial of Henry Kissinger. London: Verso.

Ibrahim, Nilima. 1994-5. Ami Birangona Bolchi (This is the "War-Heroine" Speaking), 2 Volumes. Dhaka: Jagriti.

Iqbal, Anwar. 2005. "Sheikh Mujib Wanted a Confederation: US Papers." July 7, 2005. http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/07/nat3.htm

Levi, Primo. 1996. Survival in Auschwitz: The Nazi Assault on Humanity. Translated from the Italian by Stuart Wolf. New York: Touchstone Books.

Mookherjee, Nayanika. (forthcoming). Specters and Utopias: Sexual Violence, Public Memories and the Bangladesh War of 1971. Durham: Duke University Press. 

Mookherjee, Nayanika. 2006. "Remembering to Forget: Public Secrecy and Memory of Sexual Violence in Bangladesh." Journal of Royal Anthropological Institute (JRAI), 12 (2), June 2006: pp. 433-450. 

Mookherjee, Nayanika. 2004. "My Man (Honour) is Lost but I Still Gave my Iman (Principle): Sexual Violence and Articulations of Masculinity." South Asian Masculinities. R Chopra, C Osella and F Osella, eds. New Delhi: Kali for Women: pp. 131-159.

Nordstrom, Carolyn. 2004. Shadows of War: Violence, Power, and International Profiteering in the Twenty-First Century. California Series in Public Anthropology, University of California Press. 

Rahman, Hasan H, ed. (1982-1985). Bangladesher Shadhinota Juddho Dolilpotro (Documents of the Bangladesh Independence War). Sixteen Volumes. Dhaka: People's Republic of Bangladesh, Information Ministry.

*Films*

Choudhury, Afsan. 2001. Tahader Juddho (Their War). 

Kabir, Yasmin. 2003. Shadhinota (A Certain Freedom).

Masud, Tareque and Catherine Masud. 1999. Muktir Katha. (Words of Freedom). Dhaka: Audiovision.

Masud, Tareque and Catherine Masud. 2000. Women and War. Dhaka: Ain-O-Shalish-Kendra (ASK) and Audiovision.

*Web-sites*
Discussion Forum: Story of Pakistan http://www.storyofpakistan.com/discforum/t...d=11&page=1

Drishtipat: http://drishtipat.org/sarmila/sarmila.htm

IndPride: Sarmila Bose: In Praise of Pakistan http://www.indpride.com/mediamonitor.html 

The Daily Times (Pakistan), July 2, 2005. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-7 2005_pg3_1

US Department of State South Asia in Crisis: United States Policy, 1961-1972 June 28-29, 2005, Loy Henderson Auditorium, Tentative Program. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm 

Uttorshuri: "Revisionist Historian on Rapes of 1971," July 2, 2005. 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uttorshuri/message/4090

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmila_Bose


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

dimension117 said:


> Salim sed: What has Kashmir and what Indians do got to do with Bangaldesh Liberation and the atrocities?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See thats what. u ignore the problems u gyz create and the abuses u are responsible f4 while u keep looking f4 a chance to pounce on us... U remember describing india as "a jungle of man-eating tigers?" Yes, thats whats going on, the "man-eating tigers" on this site are trying to eat us and we are defending ourselves! Just tell me straight why do u want to keep the circle of conversation on pakistan and its problems while completely ignoring or denying ur own... ppl in india are dying of proverty even as we speak picking food from gutters, farmers kill themselves because they can't grow enuf food and u are here giving us lessons and telling us what we did wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. There is no pouncing involved. It is mere discussion of the issue of the thread. Meandering with irrelevance is like complain about having gas because the farmer produced poor wuality of vegetables. As far fetched as that.
> 
> 2. The Jungle issue of another thread (?) was for that post, But given your sense of logic, you could apply it to even Lal Mazjid thread and sit back with smug glee that you could type something on the forum to establish that you exist too!
> 
> 3. Indeed India has her cup full of problems. What is new about that? Poverty is there there is no doubt against a backdrop of a galloping economy and increasing international recognition as a country moving forward after years of stagnation. That is the irony of it all! Are you suggesting Pakistan is a land without any problems or poverty? If indeed it is not, then best of luck to you.
> 
> No one is giving lessons here and I am no Mullah to give lessons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Salim sed: Now, there is a feeling that some of the posters perpetuate that Pakistan is beyond a whiff of wrong doing and is purer than the driven snow. Therefore, don't you think there should dawn a sense of reality of existence amongst those who claim they are purer than driven snow and should they not remove the cobwebs of self delusion? And there are some who chuck in a few religious verses so that it shuts up all from debate!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> <Man the posters knw we did a wrong thing by killing those bengalis but it was on the orders of a corrupt power-hungry bastard but they don't want to admit it to an opportunist audiance! Furthermore u are trying to exagerate events. thousands were killed yeah but not millions...Anyway we did say that we were wrong... u gyz cannot even say that even though u have been wrong many more times than we were... Instead u are carrying ur head high like sum gr8 hypocrate superstar infact happy f4 ur countries history and then u also try to dodge questions like kashmir and discrimination in ur own country. Salim i hav never heard u say anything bad about ur country or admit that the illegal occupation of kashmir against the popular will of the people is wrong even if u believe it and then u want us Pakistanis to talk all day about the wrong that was done becuz of a heretic bastard like z.bhutto? I find it hard to respect u, dude>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 'Opportunist audience'? So you are suggesting that all who are here are merely playing games and participating in a charade? You maybe a budding star and an actor, but please do not club all members to be so capricious seized with intense frivolity.
> 
> As far as Bangladesh is concerned, forget what the Indian or Bangladeshi members are saying. Check what the world has said. Now, if the world is wrong and you are right, then so be it. You are the only wise owl in a forest of the blind!
> 
> I do not think that Kashmir being a part of India is illegal and enough has been said on this subject. So, why should I say red when I see blue. Just to please you? Fine. Let's please you. India is a part of Pakistan. Makes you happy?
> 
> Zulfikar was a bastard? I thought Indians should say that. He gave you the nuclear bomb and said Pakistan rather eat grass but the bomb she will have! Is that how you show gratitude to your leaders. Yes, you may not like him, but as they say, give the dog his due!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No country is perfect and that is the reality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> <Ya i never sed that but i can say that our countries history and our peoples purposes are much cleaner than yours!>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was just a statement summing up my post.
> 
> But then you are the type that finds fault even in a sterilised operation theatre!
> 
> Paranoia leads to nowhere!
> 
> My answer to you is:
> 
> Spread
> 
> and not:
Click to expand...


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> Amar sonar Bamla,
> Ami tomay bhalobashi,
> Ciradin tomar akas, tomar batas, amar prane
> Oma amar prane, bajay basi.
> Sonar Bamla, Ami tomay bhalobasi.
> O ma, Fagune tor amer bane ghrane pagal kare, mari hay, hay re
> O ma, Fagune tor amer bane ghrane pagal kare,
> O ma, aghrane tor bhara ksete ki dekhechi ami ki dekhechi madhur hasi
> Sonar Bamla ami tomay bhalo basi, ki sobha, ki chaya go ki sneha,
> ki maya go ki acal bichayecha
> bater mule, nadir kule kule.
> Ma, tor mukher bani amar kane lage suhar mato,
> mari hay hay re ma,
> tor nadankhani malin hale, o ma, ami nayanjale bhasi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amar Shonar Bangla (My Golden Bengal)
> 
> My Bengal of gold, I love you
> Forever your skies, your air set my heart in tune
> as if it were a flute,
> In Spring, Oh mother mine, the fragrance from
> your mango-groves makes me wild with joy-
> Ah, what a thrill!
> 
> In Autumn, Oh mother mine,
> in the full-blossomes paddy fields,
> I have seen spread all over - sweet smiles!
> Ah, what a beauty, what shades, what an affection
> and what a tenderness!
> What a quilt have you spread at the feet of
> banyan trees and along the banks of rivers!
> Oh mother mine, words from your lips are like
> Nectar to my ears!
> Ah, what a thrill!
> If sadness, Oh mother mine, casts a gloom on your face,
> my eyes are filled with tears!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Understand the deep ecstasy and emotions of a liberated people!
Click to expand...


----------



## salman nedian

> (by SU 47) I'm proud of my country for helping the bangladeshis in their time of need


OK!Then its great if we help Kashmiris and Sikhs in their time of need. 





> (by Salim) Ah! Of course, the Indian agents!
> 
> The world was blind.
> 
> Bought of by the Hindu Lalas, what?
> 
> And I presume you think the Bangladeshis were fools and they could not make out Indian agents from Pak military men from Camps in their areas!
> 
> You sure love to self delude and run away from unpleasant facts!
> 
> Don't you think that the Mukti Bahini was actually Chinese in Bangladeshi garb? That would complete the script for your fascinating fairy tale!



Right ! The world is blind that's why they cant see who burnt "Samjhoota Express".


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Right. But you are wrong!


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> dimension117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Salim sed: What has Kashmir and what Indians do got to do with Bangaldesh Liberation and the atrocities?
> 
> See thats what. u ignore the problems u gyz create and the abuses u are responsible f4 while u keep looking f4 a chance to pounce on us... U remember describing india as "a jungle of man-eating tigers?" Yes, thats whats going on, the "man-eating tigers" on this site are trying to eat us and we are defending ourselves! Just tell me straight why do u want to keep the circle of conversation on pakistan and its problems while completely ignoring or denying ur own... ppl in india are dying of proverty even as we speak picking food from gutters, farmers kill themselves because they can't grow enuf food and u are here giving us lessons and telling us what we did wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. There is no pouncing involved. It is mere discussion of the issue of the thread. Meandering with irrelevance is like complain about having gas because the farmer produced poor wuality of vegetables. As far fetched as that.
> 
> 2. The Jungle issue of another thread (?) was for that post, But given your sense of logic, you could apply it to even Lal Mazjid thread and sit back with smug glee that you could type something on the forum to establish that you exist too!
> 
> 3. Indeed India has her cup full of problems. What is new about that? Poverty is there there is no doubt against a backdrop of a galloping economy and increasing international recognition as a country moving forward after years of stagnation. That is the irony of it all! Are you suggesting Pakistan is a land without any problems or poverty? If indeed it is not, then best of luck to you.
> 
> No one is giving lessons here and I am no Mullah to give lessons.
Click to expand...


1> Well is it not true that you are searching for a chance to make fun of pakistan. Does'nt that sum up the reason of your being on this site? Oh you call it irrelevence... oh so the question "Why do u want to keep the circle of conversation on pakistan and its problems while completely ignoring or denying ur own?" is irrelevent because you could not answer it. All i sed has evrything to do with the forum but to the "tigers eye" its irrelevent. Okay continue ignoring ur problems as irrelevent and when there will be another pakistan formed then you can come back and whine.  vegetables and gas... i luv ur examples. 

2>Well u called all indians man-eating tigers is that not true? I'm just refering to u gyz with the name you want to be called. Ya ya whateva u say... i understand u typed this post sitting in ur mamas lap eating cereal... maybe its time f4 u to go to school now...

3>  A "cup full of problems" u say? Naah a cup is'nt big enough. You are talking about size? I think the size of Delhi and Mumbai put together is big enough to contain all ur problems so u ppl shud start leaving the place. When did i ever say we had no problems? I hav no issues admitting we have problems, i do not try to dodge our problems and call them "irrelevant" and we readily admit our mistakes. I was just trying to say that the jungle... sorry india has some problems too which its tigers actually ignore.



Salim said:


> dimension117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Salim sed: Now, there is a feeling that some of the posters perpetuate that Pakistan is beyond a whiff of wrong doing and is purer than the driven snow. Therefore, don't you think there should dawn a sense of reality of existence amongst those who claim they are purer than driven snow and should they not remove the cobwebs of self delusion? And there are some who chuck in a few religious verses so that it shuts up all from debate!
> 
> <Man the posters knw we did a wrong thing by killing those bengalis but it was on the orders of a corrupt power-hungry bastard but they don't want to admit it to an opportunist audiance! Furthermore u are trying to exagerate events. thousands were killed yeah but not millions...Anyway we did say that we were wrong... u gyz cannot even say that even though u have been wrong many more times than we were... Instead u are carrying ur head high like sum gr8 hypocrate superstar infact happy f4 ur countries history and then u also try to dodge questions like kashmir and discrimination in ur own country. Salim i hav never heard u say anything bad about ur country or admit that the illegal occupation of kashmir against the popular will of the people is wrong even if u believe it and then u want us Pakistanis to talk all day about the wrong that was done becuz of a heretic bastard like z.bhutto? I find it hard to respect u, dude>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1>'Opportunist audience'? So you are suggesting that all who are here are merely playing games and participating in a charade? You maybe a budding star and an actor, but please do not club all members to be so capricious seized with intense frivolity.
> 
> 2>As far as Bangladesh is concerned, forget what the Indian or Bangladeshi members are saying. Check what the world has said. Now, if the world is wrong and you are right, then so be it. You are the only wise owl in a forest of the blind!
> 
> 3>I do not think that Kashmir being a part of India is illegal and enough has been said on this subject. So, why should I say red when I see blue. Just to please you? Fine. Let's please you. India is a part of Pakistan. Makes you happy?
> 
> 4>Zulfikar was a bastard? I thought Indians should say that. He gave you the nuclear bomb and said Pakistan rather eat grass but the bomb she will have! Is that how you show gratitude to your leaders. Yes, you may not like him, but as they say, give the dog his due!
Click to expand...


1> Hello! I was talking about Salim and most "tigers"... the rest of the members are not opportunists bcuz they do not look for opportunities to pounce on ppl... i got u there! u do pounce on ppl... i thank you for ur comments about me and i must admit i am absolutely flattered.

2>The world criticised both countries in case you have forgotten. They sed Pakistan poorly handled the issue and that india shud not have interfared in Bangladesh. See u want me to keep repeating what i sed over and over. It gives u sum sort of pleasure wen we say "we were wrong"... i totally understand why the other posters did not want to say all this about their country bcuz i feel embarrassed now. Exactly the way u want me to feel. Are you forgetting that india did not join the war becuz of their luv for bengalis... u hated east pak as much as u hated west... nor did u love the mukti bahinis u only joined because the civil war gave u a great opportunity to gain land, resources, power etc. Why do u not admit that? And weren't u always filled with rage and agony that u had lost Pakistan a large area of ur land. I know if the world pressure was'nt that much and the world did not care wat u did u would have taken Bangladesh and not let go just like u don't wanna let Kashmir go.

3> Nawww i wud'nt believe thats true anyway... Oh, u are here to please me... okay lemme tell u what u cud do to make me happy... 

step 1: Gather all people in India at a particular location.

step 2: Atom-Bomb the location and throw all ur nuclear weapons there.

step 3: Call Pakistani forces into your country.

if u are saying that "india is part of pakistan" makes me happy then this wud too...  we dun giv a damn about taking india over okay and never have... its only ur war-mongers that have always been vouching for a war. We defend, we dun attack...  

4>  Salim on fire yet again! Did u sign an accord to deny evrything that i say? If i say now that Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto is a great dude will you start saying the opposite? Okay ya ofcourse u know more about my country than i do... okay fine, yes u are absolutely right!!! He was a hero ofcourse he was. U see we are comitted to the peace process so we accept what u say...Actually i think we shud send every corrupt war-mongering theif we find to india and you can give him a position in the government... Infact Bugti, Osama bin ladin, Mullah Umar, Nawaz Sharif, Goerge Bush shud all be in ur government. I think that wud make the council and advisors but the leader should be Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto for his mass-rigging of elections, extreme corruption and his lust for power and wealth which is represented by the suppression of Balochis and Bangladesh.  Indians have a sense of gud leadership!



Salim said:


> dimension117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No country is perfect and that is the reality.
> 
> <Ya i never sed that but i can say that our countries history and our peoples purposes are much cleaner than yours!>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was just a statement summing up my post.
> 
> But then you are the type that finds fault even in a sterilised operation theatre!
> 
> Paranoia leads to nowhere!
> 
> My answer to you is:
> 
> Spread love
> 
> and not:
> 
> hate
Click to expand...


 A strilized operation theatre... wat are u talking about? Were you in an operation theatre when u were typing this? Well that sums up the delusional writing then. 

Oh i am spreading "hate" here... i see... i understand... ahan! U are definately here on this site because u luv pakistanis and support the peace process... limitless love for Pakistanis brings you here... right

Wrong u are here becauz u either hate pakistan or want to have fun by making fun of our economy, history, problems etc. U are an opportunist looking for the chance to get into every thread where any problem with pakistan is related to and have fun. I know the sort of fun u gyz have with each comment you post criticizing us. I hav seen ppl flush with pleasure wen u make such comments. So who is spreading the hate? Would it be me or you? If telling the world the truth is spreading hate then fine i am spreading hate and i am proud of it. But i really think you should practice what you preach and stop spreading hate urself cauz that is exactly what you are here to do and all of ur posts reflect that.


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Right. But you are wrong!



Yes evry1n is wrong accept u! Ya, ofcourse u are always right... we follow a policy of "the tigers are always right". You see we "love" u ppl... i mean u teach us so much about loving our neighbors so obviously we shud always keep saying "you are right." Every1n else is obviously wrong becauz a tiger has said it.

Well i think i need rest after that long post back there...this time pls try to answer my questions and not to ignore them by saying they are irrelevent .


----------



## salman nedian

Salim said:


> Right. But you are wrong!



Prove me wrong.


----------



## salman nedian

Actaually the main thing which we should seriously consider is that Bangladesh is not the part of India.
why! just because of ideology they have the same ideolody which is of Pakistan.

the lesson is there might be differences at times but the Binding Force among Pakistan and Bangladesh is "Two Nation Theory",Islam and "Ideology of Pakistan".We beleive that "Muslims of India" are our people b/c no one can deny their role in Creaion of Pakistan(East and West Pakistan).


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> 1> Well is it not true that you are searching for a chance to make fun of pakistan.



You indicate that you have no perception of what is written. Please check my post before you slander.

You are a typical mutton headed individual who shoots off this mouth without reading the content!



> Hello! I was talking about Salim and most "tigers"... the rest of the members are not opportunists bcuz they do not look for opportunities to pounce on ppl... i got u there! u do pounce on ppl... i thank you for ur comments about me and i must admit i am absolutely flattered.



it does not matter to me from which side you speak.

What mater is the content!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

salman nedian said:


> Prove me wrong.



The earth is not flat require proving?


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> You indicate that you have no perception of what is written. Please check my post before you slander.
> 
> You are a typical mutton headed individual who shoots off this mouth without reading the content!
> 
> 
> 
> it does not matter to me from which side you speak.
> 
> What mater is the content!



Out of all that this is all u saw? What a joke, picking out a tiny section of wat was there. My perception of what is written is right in the post of over 800 words The problem is that u are so pathetic that u are trying to avoid evrything thats there. Don't give me a bunch of crap and say sumthing useful.

I replied to all the stuff that u wrote and don't think that by pulling out a single line f4m that huge post u will be able to make me luk like a fool. U are the mutton-headed individual cauz this proves u haven't read the post bcuz perhaps the first line brought tears to ur eyes. Yeah i used humor and sarcasm but that dus'nt mean i am not making a point. That qoute is relevent to what you said. Even the order is perfect. 1 goes with 1... 2 goes with 2... Yeh don't run ur mouth off bf4 u knw wat u are saying. 

Try to answer the post rather than being such a pathetic loser and ignoring everything thats there. Cauz right now u are presenting urself as an idiot by totally ignoring evrything in the post just like u ignore Indias problems, issues and questions u cannot answer while babbling off about pakistans.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

I did not read the other stuff.

With due regards to you, my attention span on your posts vary.

I am not known for what you attribute to me.


----------



## roadrunner

akzaman said:


> *Skewing the history of rape in 1971 A prescription for reconciliation?*
> 
> Nayanika Mookherjee runs a critical eye over Sarmila Bose's controversial analysis of the violence committed during the Liberation War
> 
> This is a discussion of Sarmila Bose's article: "Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971" (EPW, Oct 8, 2005). A version of this paper was first presented by Dr Bose at a two-day conference, on June 28-29, 2005, organized by the historian branch of the United States Department of State titled "South Asia in Crisis: United States Policy, 1961-1972." This was arranged to mark the release of declassified US records relating to the theme of the conference.
> 
> As an Indian working in Bangladesh for nearly a decade on the public memories of sexual violence during the Bangladesh war of 1971, I was particularly struck by the author's use of the phrase "civil war" to refer to the Bangladesh war. Most Bangladeshis denounce the use of the term "civil war" to refer to the Bangladesh war as it deflects attention from its genocidal connotations.Instead, they semantically and politically distinguish the Bangladesh war as either muktijuddho (liberation war) or shadhinotar juddho(independence war).
> 
> It is also important to note that occurring at the juncture of Cold War politics, with the United States government supporting Pakistan during 1971, and the Indian government assisting the East Pakistani guerrilla fighters, the genocidal connotations of the Bangladesh war remains unacknowledged, till date. The use of the phrase "civil war" in the title of the article suggests that the author was in agreement with the Pakistani and US government's version of events of 1971. Yet the paper was claiming to provide "an impartial account." I was intrigued.
> 
> Through what Bose refers to as "case studies," she tries to highlight how violence was inflicted by both sides -- the Pakistani army and the East Pakistani liberation fighters -- during the 1971 war. She also refers to the lack of incidents of rape during the Bangladesh war in her "cases" in a small paragraph found at the end of her long article. She suggests a prescription for reconciliation through an acknowledgement of violence inflicted by all parties involved.
> 
> Soon after the Washington conference, the points made in her paper were promptly picked up by the Pakistani newspapers: The Daily Times (Hasan, June 30,2005; Editorial, July 2, 2005) and Dawn (Iqbal, July 7, 2005). Both refer to the violence inflicted by both sides, and the absence of rape during the Bangladesh war. The entry on Sarmila Bose in Wikipedia, the popular internet encyclopedia, reiterates only the brief paragraph on rape.
> 
> In a response to Uttorshuri, a Bangladeshi web mail group, on July 2, 2005, Bose said: "The heading given to the Daily Times, Pakistan, report is incorrect and not the finding of my study." Her work unleashed a barrage of criticism in Bangladesh and her research methods have been attacked as being shoddy and biased.
> 
> Collingwood (1945) has shown that historical "facts" are the reconstitution of the past in the historian's minds, involving the selection and interpretation of the past, as history is the choice of a particular expository style that is itself determined historically.
> 
> My discussion of Bose's article here, nearly ten months after the publication of her article in EPW, is an attempt to show the various responses to Bose's work, her response to these feedbacks and to highlight Bose's expository style which is appropriated by varied configurations.
> 
> In this discussion, I critically address Bose's exposition about: a) violence being inflicted on both sides, b) the lack of instances of rape in her "cases," and c) interrogate her formulation of reconciliation and highlight its implications on sub-continental politics.
> 
> *Violence inflicted on both sides*
> All parties involved are shown to "commit acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their share of humanity with Bengalis, Biharis and West Pakistanis helping one another in the midst of mayhem," in Bose's article. This is evidenced by the Pakistan army targeting adult males while sparing women and children. However, local Bengali "loyalists"/collaborators, and not the Pakistani army, are involved in inflicting violence on their fellow Bengalis and the killing of intellectuals.
> 
> According to these accounts the Pakistani army did not inflict all the violence. This decontextualized account of Bengali collaborators does not recognize the triggers and advantages that the presence of, and collaboration with, the Pakistani army created. It misses the analytical point that in all wars local collaborators become the indispensable foot-soldiers of the institutionalized military paraphernalia.
> 
> The Pakistani army is portrayed as kind, but violent when provoked, whereas the Bengalis inflict violence "for unfathomable reasons." The situation in Bangladesh during 1971 is described through phrases like: "widespread lawlessness during March," "encouraged to break the law," "urban terrorism," and "rebels."
> 
> The treatment of the Pakistani army namely: "refusal of Bengalis to sell them food and fuel, being jeered and spat at  and the widespread disregard of curfew orders, murder of army personnel," are not considered to be examples of resistance and opposition, but are cited as instances of the suffering of the Pakistani army and an exhibition of "extraordinary restraint of the army under provocation."
> 
> The "rule of law" remains with the Pakistani army as they "secure" and "gain control" over territories. Army reaction is cited as "overwhelming" while the rebels are "disorganised and amateurish" who for "unfathomable reasons  take pot-shots at the advancing units in the bazaar which triggered an overwhelming reaction from the army."
> 
> There is no commentary on the contestations that exist in Bangladesh in relation to the varied national narratives of 1971. As a result, the observation by the former liberation fighter Iqbal: "This must be the only country in the world where there are two views on the independence of the country," remains unanalysed.
> 
> As in-depth reading of various critical literature on war and violence (Butalia 1998; Das 1995; Nordstrom 2004) would show liberation and independence of countries are not homogenous narratives, and contain within their folds multiple contesting interrogations of wars through which countries become free. This is more so the case in Bangladesh (Hitchens 2001), given its fractured histories of partitions and independence.
> 
> Also, Nixon's reference to Bangladesh as the "place" remains uncommented upon. This article, which was first presented in a conference hosted by the US department of State, is particularly conspicuous in the absence of any critical examination of the US support for Pakistan's role in the Bangladesh war of 1971, in the context of Cold War calculations.
> 
> The article is helpful in addressing the ethnicization of the army as "Punjabis," and in bringing out some of the nuances of the Pakistani army. That wars and conflicts are rife with instances of violence, kindness, cowardice, complicity, contradictions by the same individuals is not anything new and has been highlighted by various feminists, critical researchers and filmmakers within Bangladesh (Akhtar et al. 2001; Choudhury 2001; Kabir 2003; Masud 1999, 2000).
> 
> They show the multiple, contradictory, subjectivities of the Bangladesh war experience, and the violence inflicted upon the poor, women, Biharis, and adivasis. In my own work, I have encountered similar complicities and contradictions. Rather than citing these experiences as ahistorical and apolitical "facts," they need to be located at the crossroads of local and national politics and histories.
> 
> The earlier mentioned formulation by Collingwood is significant here. In her other writings, Bose has attempted to go beyond Indo-Pakistani enmities. She highlights the various symbolic roles of a flag, and the possible repercussions of possessing a Pakistani flag in India (Bose 2003). In the Christian Science Monitor she argues (Bose and Milam 2005) in support of the sale of F-16s to Pakistan as a stabilizing factor within world and sub-continental geo-politics. In the EPW article, the nature of her expository style and presentation of "facts" make her "cases" representative of war-time experiences of all in Bangladesh.
> 
> *Skewing the history of rape *
> The small paragraph, located in the last page of the article, relating to the absence of rape in the "cases" has been highlighted as evidence that the Pakistani army did not rape. In her response to Uttorshuri, Bose says: "The issue of rape amounted to about 100 words out of a nearly 6,500 word paper on the subject of patterns of violence in 1971." An issue as contentious as the "patterns" of violence of rape can be claimed to be absent, through only 100 words! Bose explicates: "As I pointed out in the discussion that followed, there is evidence elsewhere that rape certainly occurred in 1971. But it seems -- from this study and other works -- that it may not have occurred in all the instances it is alleged to have occurred."
> 
> Bose's comment that rapes did occur elsewhere in 1971 is absent in her EPW article. In it she emphasizes the need to distinguish between the instances where rape occurred and where it did not. Throughout, it shows that the Bengalis raped Biharis while the Pakistani army did not rape anyone during the war. Also, it is not very clear which "cases" are being referred to in the statement: the rapes "may not have occurred in all the instances they are alleged to have occurred." Rather than this generalized statement, it would have been more transparent scholarship to cite the specific "cases" where the rapes were alleged which the research instead finds, is absent.
> 
> Bose shows, in the case of "mutinies" by "rebels," that "there was assault and abduction" of women. The Pakistani army however, "always" targeted adult males while sparing women and children. The Hamdoodur Rahman Commission (2000) established by the Pakistani government, while referring to the attack and rape of pro-Pakistani elements by Bengalis, also cites various instances of rape.
> 
> Eyewitness accounts can also be found in the eighth volume of the Dolil (Rahman 1982-85: 106, 192, 385). There is literature from the 1970s (Greer 1972; Brownmiller 1975) and recent scholarship and films based on oral history from within Bangladesh (Akhtar 2001; Choudhury 2001; Guhathakurta 1996; Ibrahim 1994, 1995; Kabir 2003; Masud 2000) which shows that the Pakistani army committed rapes and highlights the complexities of these violent encounters. Bose makes no reference to any of these documentations.
> 
> Recently, in Bangladesh, various women from different socio-economic backgrounds have narrated their violent experiences of rape by the Pakistani army and local collaborators. The well-known sculptor, Ferdousy Priyobhashini, has been vocal about her war-time experiences and the role of Pakistani army and Bengalis. My own work with various women who were raped during the war shows the contradictions of the war-time experiences while highlighting their violent encounters. All these documentations emerge as important counter-narratives to the various prevalent Bangladeshi nationalist accounts of the war.
> 
> Emphasizing these war-time contradictions is not tantamount to a denial of the incidents of rape perpetrated by Pakistani army and their local collaborators.
> 
> *A prescription for reconciliation?*
> Reconciliation, according to Bose, is possible through an acknowledgement of violence inflicted by all parties involved. However, for her, this is hinged on an unequal reliance on literally accepting the various viewpoints of the Pakistani army and administration, drawn from secondary sources (only one interview with General Niazi is briefly quoted).
> 
> While referring to the innumerable publications on 1971 as a "cottage industry," Bose seems to negate the emotive expressions of her informants as "the cultivation of an unhealthy victim culture" and a "ghoulish competition with six million Jews in order to gain international attention." This highlights a lack of empathy with her informants, and insensitivity to their comprehension of violence.
> 
> Primo Levi's work on Auschwitz shows that individuals who have encountered and survived violence make various complicated, competitive and contradictory negotiations to inhabit their survival and "victimhood." Here, Bangladeshi testimonials are ironically the means through which war-time narratives are negated.
> 
> The various individual accounts of violence, in turn, become muted with the prescription of "reconciliation." Significantly, for many Bangladeshis, "reconciliation" has a jarring resonance, as it is perceived to be the objective of various war-time collaborators, who are currently rehabilitated in the Bangladeshi political landscape.
> 
> Seen only as a "place" (Nixon), a "basket case" (Kissinger), Bangladesh is stereotypically viewed internationally, and in South Asia, as a country ravaged only by poverty, floods, cyclones and, hence, in need of the saviour, interventionist, developmental paradigms.
> 
> Here, Bangladeshi histories and politics are again delegitimized as a result of sub-continental dynamics, as there is no engagement with the wider picture in Bangladesh.
> 
> The expositions in this article itself stand in the way of reconciliation between Bangladesh and Pakistan, and cannot provide a prescription to resolve these hostilities. War-time contradictions, complicities, nuances can be highlighted without negating the foundational violence of the history of rape of the Bangladesh war perpetrated by the Pakistani army and the local collaborators.
> 
> While the Bangladesh war might be a "civil war," or Indo-Pakistan war for India and Pakistan, for most Bangladeshis it is the war of liberation and independence, even though that liberation might be interrogated in post-colonial Bangladesh. Only by recentring the issues which concern Bangladesh, along with highlighting the contradictions of wartime experiences, rather than proffering an argument which caters to Indo-Pakistan geo-political concerns, could one help the cause of reconciliation between Pakistan and Bangladesh.
> 
> This piece is adapted from "Bangladesh War of 1971: A Prescription for Reconciliation?" EPW, Vol. 41 No 36: 3901-3903. We have reprinted it here by special arrangement with EPW due to the intense interest within Bangladesh generated by the original Bose article that Dr Mookherjee discusses.
> 
> Dr Nayanika Mookherjee is a Lecturer in the Sociology Department in Lancaster University and a Research Fellow for the Society of South Asian Studies, British Academy.
> 
> *References*
> Akhtar, Shaheen, Suraiya Begum, Hameeda Hossain, Sultana Kamal, and Meghna Guhathakurta, eds. 2001. Narir Ekattor O Juddhoporoborti Koththo Kahini (Oral History Accounts of Women's Experiences During 1971 and After the War). Dhaka: Ain-O-Shalish-Kendro (ASK).
> 
> Bose, Sarmila. 2005. "Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971," Economic and Political Weekly, October 8, 2005.http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?root=2005&leaf=10&filename=9223&filetype=html
> 
> Bose, Sarmila and WB Milam. 2005. "The Right Stuff: F-16s to Pakistan is Wise Decision." Christian Science Monitor, April 11, 2005. The right stuff: F-16s to Pakistan is wise decision | csmonitor.com
> 
> Bose, Sarmila. 2003. "What's in a Flag?" The Daily Times (Pakistan), September 23, 2003. What's in a flag? By Sarmila Bose
> 
> Brownmiller, Susan. 1975. Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, pp. 78-86. London: Secker & Warburg.
> 
> Butalia, Urvashi. 1998. The Other Side of Silence: Voices from the Partition of India. New Delhi: Viking Penguin India.
> 
> Collingwood, RG. 1945. The Idea of History. Oxford: Clarendon Press.
> 
> Das, Veena. 1995. Critical Events, pp. 55-83. Delhi: Oxford University Press.
> 
> Greer, Germaine. 1972. "The Rape of the Bengali Women." Sunday Times, April 9, 1972.
> 
> Hamdoodur Rahman Commission of Enquiry. 1971. Published in August 2000. Pakistan Government.
> 
> Guhathakurta, Meghna. 1996. "Dhorshon Ekti Juddhaporadh" (Rape is a War Crime). Dhaka: Bulletin of Ain-O-Shalish Kendra (ASK), February 6-8.
> 
> Hasan, K. 2005. "Army Not Involved in 1971 Rapes." June 30, 2005. Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> Hitchens, Christopher. 2001. The Trial of Henry Kissinger. London: Verso.
> 
> Ibrahim, Nilima. 1994-5. Ami Birangona Bolchi (This is the "War-Heroine" Speaking), 2 Volumes. Dhaka: Jagriti.
> 
> Iqbal, Anwar. 2005. "Sheikh Mujib Wanted a Confederation: US Papers." July 7, 2005. Sheikh Mujib wanted a confederation: US papers -DAWN - National; July 7, 2005
> 
> Levi, Primo. 1996. Survival in Auschwitz: The Nazi Assault on Humanity. Translated from the Italian by Stuart Wolf. New York: Touchstone Books.
> 
> Mookherjee, Nayanika. (forthcoming). Specters and Utopias: Sexual Violence, Public Memories and the Bangladesh War of 1971. Durham: Duke University Press.
> 
> Mookherjee, Nayanika. 2006. "Remembering to Forget: Public Secrecy and Memory of Sexual Violence in Bangladesh." Journal of Royal Anthropological Institute (JRAI), 12 (2), June 2006: pp. 433-450.
> 
> Mookherjee, Nayanika. 2004. "My Man (Honour) is Lost but I Still Gave my Iman (Principle): Sexual Violence and Articulations of Masculinity." South Asian Masculinities. R Chopra, C Osella and F Osella, eds. New Delhi: Kali for Women: pp. 131-159.
> 
> Nordstrom, Carolyn. 2004. Shadows of War: Violence, Power, and International Profiteering in the Twenty-First Century. California Series in Public Anthropology, University of California Press.
> 
> Rahman, Hasan H, ed. (1982-1985). Bangladesher Shadhinota Juddho Dolilpotro (Documents of the Bangladesh Independence War). Sixteen Volumes. Dhaka: People's Republic of Bangladesh, Information Ministry.
> 
> *Films*
> 
> Choudhury, Afsan. 2001. Tahader Juddho (Their War).
> 
> Kabir, Yasmin. 2003. Shadhinota (A Certain Freedom).
> 
> Masud, Tareque and Catherine Masud. 1999. Muktir Katha. (Words of Freedom). Dhaka: Audiovision.
> 
> Masud, Tareque and Catherine Masud. 2000. Women and War. Dhaka: Ain-O-Shalish-Kendra (ASK) and Audiovision.
> 
> *Web-sites*
> Discussion Forum: Story of Pakistan http://www.storyofpakistan.com/discforum/t...d=11&page=1
> 
> Drishtipat: Sarmila Bose Rewrites history of Bangladesh
> 
> IndPride: Sarmila Bose: In Praise of Pakistan INDPRIDE
> 
> The Daily Times (Pakistan), July 2, 2005. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-7 2005_pg3_1
> 
> US Department of State South Asia in Crisis: United States Policy, 1961-1972 June 28-29, 2005, Loy Henderson Auditorium, Tentative Program. Conference Agenda
> 
> Uttorshuri: "Revisionist Historian on Rapes of 1971," July 2, 2005.
> Yahoo! Groups
> 
> Wikipedia: Sarmila Bose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Can you summarize this?


----------



## roadrunner

dimension117 said:


> Z.A.B was known for his corruption and suppression of political opponents, his cheap nationalization schemes and force used with balochis is wat we still pay for...



Almost every politician in South Asia is corrupt. 

I don't know who he suppressed, but for sure he was suppressed in the end. 

Attrobuting the Baloch problem to him is nonsense. If it were him, it would have ended by now. Foreign interference has caused the problem, not Pakistani leaders. 



> ya it was'nt genocide as there is no evidence west wanted to eliminate all bengalis but too much force was used to contain the east rather than peace.



Ludicrous. Using peace against people that had declared war on you the day before would not work. There is no evidence West Pakistan wanted to eliminate ANY Bengalis. You find me solid evidence that West Pakistani forces were not looking for rebels in any of their actions. Even Niazi was in favour of not cracking down too hard on any rebels. 

"The execution of &#8220;Operation Searchlight&#8221; on March 25-26 by the newly arrived Governor General Tikka Khan, was condemned by Lt Gen A A K Niazi, who arrived in April as commander of the Eastern Command, as a violation of the mission and equivalent to the Jallianwalabagh massacre in the Punjab by the British in 1919. *He said it made his task of regaining control of the province infinitely harder by provoking widespread mutiny among Bengali officers and men and turning virtually the entire population hostile.*14" 

With the exception of those two days, I doubt there was much excessive force used. If excessive force was used for revenge or other reasons, it was done by the Bengalis and Razakhars generally. 



> U say i dunno wat i'm talkin abt, open ur eyes this is wat evry site and article says, even our own



So if every person in the world says you're not human, but are in fact a rabbit, you will believe them. "Our" own articles do not say this. "Our" own articles quote the Hamdoor Report which does NOT say any genocide was committed, simply that bad apples existed within the PA, just like any other armed forces. This is more accountability than any Muktihi Bahini soldier ever got. 



> and then u give no evidence that mujib made plans f4 liberation long bf4, get evidence and i'll be the first to believe... ok, thats enough lets not fight with each other and be a target f4 the "tigers"...



There is plenty of evidence Mujib had plans for liberation long before. When were his 6 points formulated?


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## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> I did not read the other stuff.
> 
> With due regards to you, my attention span on your posts vary.
> 
> I am not known for what you attribute to me.



Well that proves my point anyway. U cannot answer any of my questions so u are seeking to avoid them. Dodging its called and its not the first time u are doing it. That is why i think of you as a pathetic loser.

What happened? Am i proving only too well that indian purposes for joining the war weren't clean. You did not join the war because u had love for the Bahini's or East Pakistanis. U hated them as much as you hated west Pakistan. You wanted land, power and resources and this gave u a chance to do that. That is exactly why you took all that land from them and infact joined the war. We all know the truth. You want to keep the conversation on Pakistan cauz u cannot deny it. Okay, fine continue...Your policy of not admitting mistakes and ignoring problems as irrelevent is pathetic enough to create another Pakistan. Atleast we learnt from our mistakes but you are not! Ur attitude proves it!


----------



## haviZsultan

Roadrunner, where are u from? Why do u only see me in this whole thread? Aren't there enough indians to hold ur attention? We can discuss Z.A.B. later. Take my msn i.d. and we can talk about it all day but not on this forum. Happy?


----------



## aksingh

dimension117 said:


> Well that proves my point anyway. U cannot answer any of my questions so u are seeking to avoid them. Dodging its called and its not the first time u are doing it. That is why i think of you as a pathetic loser.
> 
> What happened? Am i proving only too well that indian purposes for joining the war weren't clean. You did not join the war because u had love for the Bahini's or East Pakistanis. U hated them as much as you hated west Pakistan. You wanted land, power and resources and this gave u a chance to do that. That is exactly why you took all that land from them and infact joined the war. We all know the truth. You want to keep the conversation on Pakistan cauz u cannot deny it. Okay, fine continue...Your policy of not admitting mistakes and ignoring problems as irrelevent is pathetic enough to create another Pakistan. Atleast we learnt from our mistakes but you are not! Ur attitude proves it!



LOL first don't call people names aite,..
(Koi naa Salim I'm behind you)

What were the Pakistani purpose to join Khalistan all Sikhs know very well.....
But thats another point...

Regards to hating west pakistan yes I hate the people who divided countries, hate the people who are still dividing irresp of their allegiance..Indians donot accept Pakistan as their friend though as for the countrymen of Pakistan there is no hate but only love...

As for 1971..

India first opened borders to allow refugees from bangladesh to come in and the 10mn+ who came in were causing financial hardships...
Indians still have affinity for their lost countrymen like Bangladeshi and Pakistani, you will have difficult in understanding cause you were not born here....
As the economic costs were increasing Indians decided to arm the freedom fighters and give 'em economic support...


For further information please read

*http://www.subcontinent.com/1971war/origins.html*

"This site was awarded a Times Pick by the Los Angeles Times on 8/14/97."


----------



## roadrunner

dimension117 said:


> Roadrunner, where are u from? Why do u only see me in this whole thread? Aren't there enough indians to hold ur attention? We can discuss Z.A.B. later. Take my msn i.d. and we can talk about it all day but not on this forum. Happy?



If a Bharati says something correct, I'll agree with him. If they say something wrong I'll disagree with them. If you say something wrong I'll disagree with you. I'm pretty neutral in all this. Even Pakistanis do not need one single opinion about everything. In your case, you have the wrong opinion about the '71 war, there was no genocide in the slightest, the 3 million figure (and even the 300,000 figure) is nonsense, and it doesn't matter what every single site says..there are 150 million Pakistanis in the world, one and a quarter billion Bengalis and Bharatis. With more than 7 times as many people, who will you expect to have the most sites?


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## roadrunner

aksingh said:


> LOL first don't call people names aite,..
> (Koi naa Salim I'm behind you)
> 
> What were the Pakistani purpose to join Khalistan all Sikhs know very well.....
> But thats another point...
> 
> Regards to hating west pakistan yes I hate the people who divided countries, hate the people who are still dividing irresp of their allegiance..Indians donot accept Pakistan as their friend though as for the countrymen of Pakistan there is no hate but only love...



And you just demonstrate a previous point I made. Pakistan is part of Bhaaratvarsha and all the extremist Bharatis would like to see it united back. it's not possible, but Bangladesh is possible to do so since it lacks any decent military. 



> As for 1971..
> 
> India first opened borders to allow refugees from bangladesh to come in and the 10mn+ who came in were causing financial hardships...
> Indians still have affinity for their lost countrymen like Bangladeshi and Pakistani, you will have difficult in understanding cause you were not born here....
> As the economic costs were increasing Indians decided to arm the freedom fighters and give 'em economic support...



At least you admit you armed the Bangladeshis at some point, though it's a well known fact you armed them well before the war. 

I don't buy the economic cost thing at all. Pakistan is home to at least 4 million refugees. Its population is 150 million. Bharat in 1971 had around 600 million people, they should have the capacity to look after around 16 million refugees back then, but they had trouble with 10 million! Why is it one country can maintain support to 4 million over years but the other can't support less refugees over months only?


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Dimension,

Rantings and personal opinions really makes no difference to me.

If it gives you glee that you have scored brownie points, so be it.

Do produce something mind tickling and I will answer. Mundane and plebeian claptrap actually does not excite. Or the same idea with a new veneer!

You will notice there is another person who does not warrant a reply. There are many others to do the needful.

Some posts reminds me of Pinocchio.


----------



## haviZsultan

aksingh said:


> LOL first don't call people names aite,..
> (Koi naa Salim I'm behind you)
> 
> What were the Pakistani purpose to join Khalistan all Sikhs know very well.....
> But thats another point...
> 
> Regards to hating west pakistan yes I hate the people who divided countries, hate the people who are still dividing irresp of their allegiance..Indians donot accept Pakistan as their friend though as for the countrymen of Pakistan there is no hate but only love...
> 
> As for 1971..
> 
> India first opened borders to allow refugees from bangladesh to come in and the 10mn+ who came in were causing financial hardships...
> Indians still have affinity for their lost countrymen like Bangladeshi and Pakistani, you will have difficult in understanding cause you were not born here....
> As the economic costs were increasing Indians decided to arm the freedom fighters and give 'em economic support...
> 
> 
> For further information please read
> 
> *http://www.subcontinent.com/1971war/origins.html*
> 
> "This site was awarded a Times Pick by the Los Angeles Times on 8/14/97."



Yeah i know u gyz hated us and still hate us... as if its sumthing new!

You guys needed an excuse to attack Pakistan! Economic costs was a good one! Pakistan struck first was another good one! Economic costs rising? U had fewer refugees than pakistan has now... Wat u sayin?  Economic costs were high so u decided to give the bahinis arms support and use more of ur resources to arm them and train them. Well weren't those economic costs then?

That is why u took all those refugees in. So that the bangalis and bahinis turned towards u and looked at you as saviors.

Well my parents were born in India... Affinity to lost countrymen, oh i understand, u luved pakistanis so much and wanted them to be ur freinds, that is why u supported the bahinis because it would create peace in the region and lasting gudwill... it was the jungles... sorry indias peacefulness that brought them into the war... i see.

U shud say affinity to pakistani land and affinity to punish the pakistani people for breaking with india. That was ur affinity! that proves what i said. That indians <man-eating tigers according to salim> were filled with rage for losing Pakistan and all that land and wanted to get back. It was time for vengeance... so u decided to get back by freeing bangladesh and u cud take some of its land on the premise that u helped them against Pakistan.


----------



## BanglaBhoot

aksingh said:


> India first opened borders to allow refugees from bangladesh to come in and the 10mn+ who came in were causing financial hardships...
> Indians still have affinity for their lost countrymen like Bangladeshi and Pakistani, you will have difficult in understanding cause you were not born here....
> As the economic costs were increasing Indians decided to arm the freedom fighters and give 'em economic support...



I think it was actually India's intention to dismember Pakistan from the time of partition and especially during the 1960's that resulted in intervention in 1971.


----------



## BanglaBhoot

genmirajborgza786 said:


> Bangladesh should have united with India



Thats a really big statement which I doubt the majority of Bangladeshis would approve. What benefit would Bangladesh have derived from joining India?


----------



## haviZsultan

MBI Munshi said:


> Thats a really big statement which I doubt the majority of Bangladeshis would approve. What benefit would Bangladesh have derived from joining India?



Exactly! Bangladesh was with us in its fight for independence from india... why would Bangladesh go back and out of the way to join India?  Bangladesh shud have joined india... hahaha! come on we all know how minorities are treated in india. All the people in my family back there are totally unhappy! Just taking a look at Kashmir will let u gyz know how u'd be treated. Its the only place where there is a larger minority than the majority and they suffer absolute oppression! 

India was just there to steal from Bangladesh... and see a weaker Pakistan. they wanted to get land and they did get land did'nt they... they took the richest lands which should have belonged to u gyz! they did NOT have sum "divine purpose" in helping Bangladesh... that is clear. It was simply an opportunity for them to strike as pakistan was involved in a civil-war and was preoccupied. They hated east as much as west Pak...

Its gud to see that many here see the truth!


----------



## salman nedian

aksingh said:


> LOL first don't call people names aite,..
> (Koi naa Salim I'm behind you)
> 
> What were the Pakistani purpose to join Khalistan all Sikhs know very well.....
> But thats another point...
> 
> Regards to hating west pakistan yes I hate the people who divided countries, hate the people who are still dividing irresp of their allegiance..Indians donot accept Pakistan as their friend though as for the countrymen of Pakistan there is no hate but only love...
> 
> As for 1971..
> 
> India first opened borders to allow refugees from bangladesh to come in and the 10mn+ who came in were causing financial hardships...
> Indians still have affinity for their lost countrymen like Bangladeshi and Pakistani, you will have difficult in understanding cause you were not born here....
> As the economic costs were increasing Indians decided to arm the freedom fighters and give 'em economic support...
> 
> 
> For further information please read
> 
> *http://www.subcontinent.com/1971war/origins.html*
> 
> "This site was awarded a Times Pick by the Los Angeles Times on 8/14/97."




The Pakistani purpose to support Khalistan movement was to liberte you(sikhs).after all East Punjab is a neighbouring province and you were in trouble when your loving Indian Government attacked "Golden Temple".

Now i am proud of my Country for helping Sikhs in their time of need.


----------



## salman nedian

Salim,
160 Million Pakistani Muslims will be behind you when sikhs will join hindus against Muslims as they did in past.


----------



## intruder

salman nedian said:


> The Pakistani purpose to support Khalistan movement was to liberte you(sikhs).after all East Punjab is a neighbouring province and you were in trouble when your loving Indian Government attacked "Golden Temple".
> 
> Now i am proud of my Country for *helping Sikhs in their time of need.*



I wonder why people cry foul when we do the same i.e. "helping troubled people in our neighbourhood in time of need".....


----------



## salman nedian

su-47 said:


> The evidence of genocide in bangladesh by pakistani army is overwhelming. though the exact casuality figures are not known, it definitely stretches into the millions. There's no point denying it.
> 
> I'm proud of my country for helping the bangladeshis in their time of need



Intruder,

Read all the posts first.then you will know who initiated all that. 

Tragedy of East Pakistan happened in 1971 and incident of Golden Temple happened in 1984.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

salman nedian said:


> Salim,
> 160 Million Pakistani Muslims will be behind you when sikhs will join hindus against Muslims as they did in past.



Where is the requirement to fight?


----------



## genmirajborgza786

MBI Munshi said:


> Thats a really big statement which I doubt the majority of Bangladeshis would approve. What benefit would Bangladesh have derived from joining India?



My Salaam to you First of all I would like to tender my apologies to any one whom may have been offended by my point of view munshi bhai i apologize & i recognize the people's republic of Bangladesh as an independent & sovereign country , however i do stand by my point. See munshi bhai i myself is an Urdu speaking person & my family members left India for east & west Pakistan in the 50s some even in 1964 & i also support Pakistan & Bangladesh but not blindly if there are thing that is wrong say with Pakistan, Bangladesh in my view then i have no problem accepting it like wise if there is anything wrong with India i have no problem accepting it or even my own country Canada if something is wrong then its wrong in my perception however i am human & I am vulnerable to being wrong my self & i totally accept that fact yes why not we all are with respect so the best i can do is learn, join forums, read history, news, social science etc as an individual I have had the opportunity to visit all the three countries in south Asia India ,Pakistan & Bangladesh & there are thing that I love about all the of them like I love the city of joy Calcutta I find the people there to be the best to interact in fact Calcutta , Istanbul, Toronto & Lahore are the three places most probably that I really enjoy interacting with people & I find them piety down to earth then there is nothing like the home made food of Dhaka a lot of memories & good ones manarat international school my first school was in Dhaka & Karachi wow can you beat that city though I am not comfortable interacting much in Karachi but with all my socialist sarcasms (laugh) Karachi is a city that I am in love with now that&#8217;s even strange to me be it north nazimabad, Clifton or Azizabad not to mention Snoopy's ice cream pour lour in gulshan e Iqbal is worth dying for no doubt: however now coming down to the subject see with respect Bangladesh is 55,513 sq ml with a population of 160 million people what is the most important thing in life not country not religion not point of vies but human welfare well being of human&#8217;s comes first & for most so if Bangladesh would have untied with India back in 71 only it could have got it self an special status like with first opportunity's for the province of east Bengal of the Indian union then the rest of India mrs.Indira Gandhi would have readily accepted it but by knocking of sheik Mujib ur Rahman along with his entire family & letting narcissist establishment that of the pro pakistan late presiden zia ur rahman & giving him & his pro-Pakistan general & friend removing the communists & replacing them with the Pakistan repatriate Bengali army officer&#8217;s some of whom were even more anti India & the hard core of hardcore Pakistan generals & letting them imposing martial law in 1975 giving them a free hand to creating an statuesque Pakistan type capitalists societies under the the control of some handful of people specially the pro Pakistan Bengali ex Pakistan army officer&#8217;s like ex-president Ershad killing the mukti bahiunis one by one at night during late president zia-ur-rahman&#8217;s rule thus paving way for the ultimate the mother of all ISI stooge govt of all times in the history of Bangladesh or anywhere else take charge the khaleda plus jamaat e islami 4 party coalition govt who have just recently been kicked out of power who were used to luxuries doing nothing for the poor people of Bangladesh ignored population control measures these cruel for the riches only types animals ruling an sovereigns country whose very independence they opposed for people who call you illegal immigrants just take a good look at this very thread & you will know my friend severing ties with India all for nothing being more anti Indian then the Pakistanis them self&#8217;s who calls you all illegal immigrants & what not giving late precedent general Zia urrahman undue advantage letting his puppets reintroducing the bogus philosophies of one Muslim soldier is equal to ten Hindus why what was the need for it ? indirectly claiming the seven sisters states why what was the need for it ? For whom Pakistan? dint you read how they think about you they call you guys illegal immigrants & you are fighting a proxy for them now this is wrong isn't it today by doing all this the innocent 16 crore people of Bangladesh who have suffered a lot at the hands of the pro-Pakistan policies of the Zia, Ershad, & the khaleda/jamaat govt are being stagnated in a 55,513sqml of land will Pakistan take them?? no then why not join India? Think about it you can travel to Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, madras, wherever you want stay wherever you like stay for forever no problem at all India will become you country its booming economic growth will be yours those who call you illegal immigrants will hide there face in shame so why not join India plus this will also increase the Muslim power in India you will in fact be in a better position why break your heat in Karachi when you have Bombay, Goa waiting for you why cry in Lahore when you have the Punjabi beauty of Delhi at your side think live
& live with dignity India is yours even today just leave this talk of separation & join the Indian union & break free from this curse of the partition this55,513sq ml of poverty with 160 million people bieng derived of a better & take destiny in your own hands see then even American&#8217;s will salute you.
salaam


----------



## genmirajborgza786

salman nedian said:


> Salim,
> 160 Million Pakistani Muslims will be behind you when sikhs will join hindus against Muslims as they did in past.



people who calls ones own Muslim brothers as illegal immigrants sounds very Hippocratic when they talk like this plain & simple there nothing for Muslims to be happy in this statement its pure nationalism thats the hard fact sir, the Muslims in India are quiet well of India is not a Hindu country it's a secular country just like my country Canada & definitely i would never like anybody saying that his country will be behind me when the majorities of my countrymen turn against me sorry sir keep your nostalgia to your self thanks. proof read this thread carefully though you sound like a nice brother i have respect for you but no thanks why waste your time on illegal immigrants 
peace.


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Where is the requirement to fight?



Salim is back! Tell me why do you try to avoid what you cannot answer. You do not want to admit that India had vested interests for joining the war nor do u wanna admit that evrything written back there in that post is true, e.g. the treatment of minorities in india!!! Continue ur "dodging" of important issues and problems in india... one day it will surely hurt you guys!


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## haviZsultan

genmirajborgza786 i will come back 2 answer your post !!!


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## salman nedian

Genmirajborgza,
I am shocked after reading your posts.Well i am also a urdu speaking person and my Grandfather was a freedom fighter any ways i can understand what u are saying but bro this is not the forum to talk those things i have answers to your questions but i think we should discuss it somewhere else(may be via private messages).


----------



## haviZsultan

genmirajborgza786 said:


> My Salaam to you First of all I would like to tender my apologies to any one whom may have been offended by my point of view munshi bhai i apologize & i recognize the people's republic of Bangladesh as an independent & sovereign country , however i do stand by my point. See munshi bhai i myself is an Urdu speaking person & my family members left India for east & west Pakistan in the 50s some even in 1964 & i also support Pakistan & Bangladesh but not blindly if there are thing that is wrong say with Pakistan, Bangladesh in my view then i have no problem accepting it like wise if there is anything wrong with India i have no problem accepting it or even my own country Canada if something is wrong then its wrong in my perception however i am human & I am vulnerable to being wrong my self & i totally accept that fact yes why not we all are with respect so the best i can do is learn, join forums, read history, news, social science etc as an individual I have had the opportunity to visit all the three countries in south Asia India ,Pakistan & Bangladesh & there are thing that I love about all the of them like I love the city of joy Calcutta I find the people there to be the best to interact in fact Calcutta , Istanbul, Toronto & Lahore are the three places most probably that I really enjoy interacting with people & I find them piety down to earth then there is nothing like the home made food of Dhaka a lot of memories & good ones manarat international school my first school was in Dhaka & Karachi wow can you beat that city though I am not comfortable interacting much in Karachi but with all my socialist sarcasms (laugh) Karachi is a city that I am in love with now thats even strange to me be it north nazimabad, Clifton or Azizabad not to mention Snoopy's ice cream pour lour in gulshan e Iqbal is worth dying for no doubt: however now coming down to the subject see with respect Bangladesh is 55,513 sq ml with a population of 160 million people what is the most important thing in life not country not religion not point of vies but human welfare well being of humans comes first & for most so if Bangladesh would have untied with India back in 71 only it could have got it self an special status like with first opportunity's for the province of east Bengal of the Indian union then the rest of India mrs.Indira Gandhi would have readily accepted it but by knocking of sheik Mujib ur Rahman along with his entire family & letting narcissist establishment that of the pro pakistan late presiden zia ur rahman & giving him & his pro-Pakistan general & friend removing the communists & replacing them with the Pakistan repatriate Bengali army officers some of whom were even more anti India & the hard core of hardcore Pakistan generals & letting them imposing martial law in 1975 giving them a free hand to creating an statuesque Pakistan type capitalists societies under the the control of some handful of people specially the pro Pakistan Bengali ex Pakistan army officers like ex-president Ershad killing the mukti bahiunis one by one at night during late president zia-ur-rahmans rule thus paving way for the ultimate the mother of all ISI stooge govt of all times in the history of Bangladesh or anywhere else take charge the khaleda plus jamaat e islami 4 party coalition govt who have just recently been kicked out of power who were used to luxuries doing nothing for the poor people of Bangladesh ignored population control measures these cruel for the riches only types animals ruling an sovereigns country whose very independence they opposed for people who call you illegal immigrants just take a good look at this very thread & you will know my friend severing ties with India all for nothing being more anti Indian then the Pakistanis them selfs who calls you all illegal immigrants & what not giving late precedent general Zia urrahman undue advantage letting his puppets reintroducing the bogus philosophies of one Muslim soldier is equal to ten Hindus why what was the need for it ? indirectly claiming the seven sisters states why what was the need for it ? For whom Pakistan? dint you read how they think about you they call you guys illegal immigrants & you are fighting a proxy for them now this is wrong isn't it today by doing all this the innocent 16 crore people of Bangladesh who have suffered a lot at the hands of the pro-Pakistan policies of the Zia, Ershad, & the khaleda/jamaat govt are being stagnated in a 55,513sqml of land will Pakistan take them?? no then why not join India? Think about it you can travel to Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, madras, wherever you want stay wherever you like stay for forever no problem at all India will become you country its booming economic growth will be yours those who call you illegal immigrants will hide there face in shame so why not join India plus this will also increase the Muslim power in India you will in fact be in a better position why break your heat in Karachi when you have Bombay, Goa waiting for you why cry in Lahore when you have the Punjabi beauty of Delhi at your side think live
> & live with dignity India is yours even today just leave this talk of separation & join the Indian union & break free from this curse of the partition this55,513sq ml of poverty with 160 million people bieng derived of a better & take destiny in your own hands see then even Americans will salute you.
> salaam



Awwww... Do u have a fever or are you just tired after a bad day? Oooohhhh great! Well i too have had the honour to go to all 3 countries. I have family in all 3 countries... 

Our family in india are discontent with the constant oppression they suffer just because they are muslim e.g. hindus being preffered over muslims for job positions, they have little political power, no rights and hindus are favoured when muslims are killed! I have felt the bias and dislike each time I have gone there. Even I am supposed to be half-indian but I see myself only and only as a Pakistani! ... Furthermore the oppression of kashmiris, the only muslim dominated society in india screams the fate bengalis would have suffered in India. My family in bangladesh are happy but never wanted East and West Pakistan to break... they still view us as close brothers just as my family in Pakistan views Bengladeshis.

  How many times will I have to repeat myself on Indias stand on Bangladesh??? Why are the Indians represented as "noble knights" who came to save Bengalis in their time of trouble... the indians were only seeking to gain land, resources and wealth which is proven by the land taken from you guys and the soldiers etc from us for which they could "bargain"! They hated east pakistan as much as they hated west pakistan and to prove this u can pick up any newspaper from before the war and read Indias comments about East Pakistan! The indians were always angry and raging at how they had actually lost Pakistan! It was pure vengeance and the opportunity they had because of the civil war that they used to their advantage. Yes, some bangalis may view them as heroes but it is nothing but the truth that they were just using you. They had no love for Bahinis or East Pakistan. Infact they were as likely to support some vile rebellion leader just wanting to spread death and destruction by pillage, murder, rape and loot because it gave them an opportunity to get back at those who fought for independence against them. If the world pressure was'nt so great they might have taken all of bangladesh and not let it go just like they are not letting Kashmir go! Sadly, the truth is that it was the same hate which you fought against alongside us during independence that brought them to help the Bahinis and Bangladesh.

You are so totally insulting me right now! Many bengalis supported and voted for zia-ul-haq etc. Comeon i am a muhajir!!! I was never ever called an "illegal immigrant." I can assure any people who want to come to pakistan that they will not be ignored or mistreated as is the case in india from where we all came running! Booming growth... well pakistan also has the 3rd fastest growing GDP rate...  many sources even say it has taken indias place so why not choose pakistan rather than... Dude why would anyone, be it a bengali or whoever, choose delhi rather than the Lahore hospitality, beauty and the warm welcome they'd recieve, why is it that those who come there wanna live and die for that land can you please tell me? And karachi the beautiful city of lights... why are we diverging anyway to a comparison between India and Pakistan? There is no chance of bangladesh going to either side if that is what u wanna say! Bangladesh is a sovereign state and it has already chosen its destiny and has decided its future!

So you are saying that Bangladesh should join India ignoring all of this? Proverty oh please! India would just steal from bangladesh and the people of the nation more than know it as they know of the land they lost to india. My bangladeshi uncle there would rather die than hear someone even mention ceding Bangladesh to india, he said so himself! Bangladesh would be in a much worser condition than it is now if it was with India because of the bias. I do not think that conditions in Bangladesh are that bad as I have been there myself! Why do you want to insult the economy of an independent nation? Yes, there is proverty just like there is in the rest of the world but slowly that proverty is dissappearing and Bangladesh can rise to new heights without joining India which i must admit is the most absurd idea ever suggested as the "secular" nations treatment of minorities is so well known and they would not like to give rights and power to vote to so many muslims as it makes the government weaker (they can call it secular and put in figureheads to prove it but the majority of muslims are not treated as well as the hindus are which in truth are the rulers of the country!) 

So is it not a completely vague idea to suggest that Bangladesh should be ceded to India, the country bengalis fought to break free from? Is it not merely stupid to suggest that India which had no love for Bangladesh (except that of what India could get from it) should rule it? Is it not unacceptable for you to accept that an independent free nation should give up its soverneighty to its neighbor just because they supported you for its own vested interests?... well it must be unacceptable for all those who value freedom and did you forget how ur forefathers fought to end living with the hindu injustice, constant bias and descrimination all the time? Well i value freedom and for that freedom I will die just as the generations before me were willing to die!

Please my bengali brothers this post is only inspired by dislike or hate! That same hate was once directed against you and you people fought to gain independence and free yourself of it alongside your Pakistani brothers. In truth we have always loved u and still do and that is why it still hurts me when someone insults Bangladesh! We still think of you as brothers rather than the indians whose relationship with you was of what they could get from you and us and depended more on the situation! Well, the choice of deciding your future is your own and no one elses!


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> My Salaam to you First of all I would like to tender my apologies to any one whom may have been offended by my point of view munshi bhai i apologize & i recognize the people's republic of Bangladesh as an independent & sovereign country , however i do stand by my point. See munshi bhai i myself is an Urdu speaking person & my family members left India for east & west Pakistan in the 50s some even in 1964 & i also support Pakistan & Bangladesh but not blindly if there are thing that is wrong say with Pakistan, Bangladesh in my view then i have no problem accepting it like wise if there is anything wrong with India i have no problem accepting it or even my own country Canada if something is wrong then its wrong in my perception however i am human & I am vulnerable to being wrong my self & i totally accept that fact yes why not we all are with respect so the best i can do is learn, join forums, read history, news, social science etc as an individual I have had the opportunity to visit all the three countries in south Asia India ,Pakistan & Bangladesh & there are thing that I love about all the of them like I love the city of joy Calcutta I find the people there to be the best to interact in fact Calcutta , Istanbul, Toronto & Lahore are the three places most probably that I really enjoy interacting with people & I find them piety down to earth then there is nothing like the home made food of Dhaka a lot of memories & good ones manarat international school my first school was in Dhaka & Karachi wow can you beat that city though I am not comfortable interacting much in Karachi but with all my socialist sarcasms (laugh) Karachi is a city that I am in love with now that&#8217;s even strange to me be it north nazimabad, Clifton or Azizabad not to mention Snoopy's ice cream pour lour in gulshan e Iqbal is worth dying for no doubt: however now coming down to the subject see with respect Bangladesh is 55,513 sq ml with a population of 160 million people what is the most important thing in life not country not religion not point of vies but human welfare well being of human&#8217;s comes first & for most so if Bangladesh would have untied with India back in 71 only it could have got it self an special status like with first opportunity's for the province of east Bengal of the Indian union then the rest of India mrs.Indira Gandhi would have readily accepted it but by knocking of sheik Mujib ur Rahman along with his entire family & letting narcissist establishment that of the pro pakistan late presiden zia ur rahman & giving him & his pro-Pakistan general & friend removing the communists & replacing them with the Pakistan repatriate Bengali army officer&#8217;s some of whom were even more anti India & the hard core of hardcore Pakistan generals & letting them imposing martial law in 1975 giving them a free hand to creating an statuesque Pakistan type capitalists societies under the the control of some handful of people specially the pro Pakistan Bengali ex Pakistan army officer&#8217;s like ex-president Ershad killing the mukti bahiunis one by one at night during late president zia-ur-rahman&#8217;s rule thus paving way for the ultimate the mother of all ISI stooge govt of all times in the history of Bangladesh or anywhere else take charge the khaleda plus jamaat e islami 4 party coalition govt who have just recently been kicked out of power who were used to luxuries doing nothing for the poor people of Bangladesh ignored population control measures these cruel for the riches only types animals ruling an sovereigns country whose very independence they opposed for people who call you illegal immigrants just take a good look at this very thread & you will know my friend severing ties with India all for nothing being more anti Indian then the Pakistanis them self&#8217;s who calls you all illegal immigrants & what not giving late precedent general Zia urrahman undue advantage letting his puppets reintroducing the bogus philosophies of one Muslim soldier is equal to ten Hindus why what was the need for it ? indirectly claiming the seven sisters states why what was the need for it ? For whom Pakistan? dint you read how they think about you they call you guys illegal immigrants & you are fighting a proxy for them now this is wrong isn't it today by doing all this the innocent 16 crore people of Bangladesh who have suffered a lot at the hands of the pro-Pakistan policies of the Zia, Ershad, & the khaleda/jamaat govt are being stagnated in a 55,513sqml of land will Pakistan take them?? no then why not join India? Think about it you can travel to Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, madras, wherever you want stay wherever you like stay for forever no problem at all India will become you country its booming economic growth will be yours those who call you illegal immigrants will hide there face in shame so why not join India plus this will also increase the Muslim power in India you will in fact be in a better position why break your heat in Karachi when you have Bombay, Goa waiting for you why cry in Lahore when you have the Punjabi beauty of Delhi at your side think live



You're making it sound like being Muslim and Indian, aka Bharati is a good thing. Aren't the Muslims of Bharat discriminated against, and don't you think this discrimination would be highest in Muslim majority states? According to TIME magazine

*In rural India, 29&#37; of Muslims earn less than $6 a month, compared with 26% of Hindus; in the cities (where a third of all Muslims live) the gap rises to 40% vs. 22%. Some 13% of India's population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3% of government employees, and an even smaller percentage are employed by private Hindu businesses. Meanwhile, in the cities, 30% of Muslims are illiterate, vs. 19% of Hindus. Nor are any of these indices improving.* 

TIMEasia Magazine: India's Great Divide 

According to you 



> Think about it you can travel to Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, madras, wherever you want stay wherever you like stay for forever no problem at all India will become you country its booming economic growth will be yours those who call you illegal immigrants will hide there face in shame so why not join India plus this will also increase the Muslim power in India *you will in fact be in a better position *why break your heat in Karachi when you have Bombay, Goa waiting for you why cry in Lahore when you have the Punjabi beauty of Delhi at your side think live



Why is what you say, and what TIME magazine says, at odds with each other? Is the economic growth going to apply to Indian Muslims also, or just for you majority Hindus? 

PS You've mentioned illegal immigrants twice. Do you think it's more effective the second time around? In fact do you believe what you just wrote? Obviously the Bangladeshis feel discriminated against in Bharat, which is why they flock to Pakistan.


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## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> You're making it sound like being Muslim and Indian, aka Bharati is a good thing. Aren't the Muslims of Bharat discriminated against, and don't you think this discrimination would be highest in Muslim majority states? According to TIME magazine
> 
> *In rural India, 29&#37; of Muslims earn less than $6 a month, compared with 26% of Hindus; in the cities (where a third of all Muslims live) the gap rises to 40% vs. 22%. Some 13% of India's population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3% of government employees, and an even smaller percentage are employed by private Hindu businesses. Meanwhile, in the cities, 30% of Muslims are illiterate, vs. 19% of Hindus. Nor are any of these indices improving.*
> 
> TIMEasia Magazine: India's Great Divide
> 
> According to you
> 
> 
> 
> Why is what you say, and what TIME magazine says, at odds with each other? Is the economic growth going to apply to Indian Muslims also, or just for you majority Hindus?
> 
> PS You've mentioned illegal immigrants twice. Do you think it's more effective the second time around? In fact do you believe what you just wrote? Obviously the Bangladeshis feel discriminated against in Bharat, which is why they flock to Pakistan.



Your views are so full of BS do you really have any idea how contradicting your post's are from one another just one query are you one person doesn't sounds like obviously you don't have much knowledge in this subject & surely have no idea of what you re talking about or are just talking for the sake of it .
it will be a waste of my precious (Nafees) in Urdu time (Waqt) & will be a lowering of my caliber to answer your crap keep doing what you do @ best which is a constant irritating    best of luck


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## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> Your views are so full of BS do you really have any idea how contradicting your post's are from one another just one query are you one person doesn't sounds like obviously you don't have much knowledge in this subject & surely have no idea of what you re talking about or are just talking for the sake of it .
> it will be a waste of my precious (Nafees) in Urdu time (Waqt) & will be a lowering of my caliber to answer your crap keep doing what you do @ best which is a constant irritating    best of luck



Why don't you answer the reply instead of throwing emotional tantrums at the messenger? It was you who quoted a piece from virtualBangladesh claiming pompuosly the article was written by the Sunday Times, only to be proven it was not, correct? Are my facts right or wrong regarding discrimination of Bharati Muslims in Bharat? 

PS Point out where I've contradicted myself in this thread. I'm pretty fluent on the war of Independence, so instead of swearing needlessly, point out where the contradiction lies in this thread.


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## haviZsultan

Was my post too hard to answer Genmirajborgza or was it all just the truth? Come on why does everyone back down when i get a post in?


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## joey

dimension117 let me know where your family in India lives, I'd like to contact them personally and ask them against the allegations you have raised and thereby ask themselves of the solution.



> In rural India, 29% of Muslims earn less than $6 a month, compared with 26% of Hindus; in the cities (where a third of all Muslims live) the gap rises to 40% vs. 22%. Some 13% of India's population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3% of government employees, and an even smaller percentage are employed by private Hindu businesses. Meanwhile, in the cities, 30% of Muslims are illiterate, vs. 19% of Hindus. Nor are any of these indices improving.



This comment is independent comment and is not directed at anyone.

when did any magazine or any government for that matter started counting the whole macro-econmy of India? 26% and 23% , I dont think its a big deal. The NSSO survey spanned a few thousand villages I think have to check on rural income level.

Okay here it is from here



> The survey collected primary data from a sample of approximately 63,000 households out of preliminary listed sample of 4,40,000 households spread over 1,976 villages (250 districts) and 2,255 urban wards (342 towns) covering 64 National Sample Survey (NSS) regions in 24 states/UTs.



Regarding illiteracy = less jobs = poor, I'm sorry to say I have seen hundreds of cases where rural or even local community Muslims instead of sending them to schools sends them to madrasas you just have to come and see such thing, even madrasa board is recognised but problem is often other than a few dont come with flying colors from madrasas in representing the future economy its reality. If such issue is true for Pakistan how it can not be true for India? You just cannot go and ask villagers okay stop sending them to madrasas, you'll then loose election and will brand you as anti-Islamic. They themselve are at fault here and their leadership whom they support blindly.

I have commented once regarding Muslims in West Bengal which is a communist state yet the Muslim group is quite poor compared to other states, its a good food for thought why if thought properly ofcourse.


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## haviZsultan

joey said:


> dimension117 let me know where your family in India lives, I'd like to contact them personally and ask them against the allegations you have raised and thereby ask themselves of the solution.
> 
> 
> 
> This comment is independent comment and is not directed at anyone.
> 
> when did any magazine or any government for that matter started counting the whole macro-econmy of India? 26&#37; and 23% , I dont think its a big deal. The NSSO survey spanned a few thousand villages I think have to check on rural income level.
> 
> Regarding illiteracy = less jobs = poor, I'm sorry to say I have seen hundreds of cases where rural or even local community Muslims instead of sending them to schools sends them to madrasas you just have to come and see such thing, even madrasa board is recognised but problem is often other than a few dont come with flying colors from madrasas in representing the future economy its reality. If such issue is true for Pakistan how it can not be true for India? You just cannot go and ask villagers okay stop sending them to madrasas, you'll then loose election and will brand you as anti-Islamic. They themselve are at fault here and their leadership whom they support blindly.
> 
> I have commented once regarding Muslims in West Bengal which is a communist state yet the Muslim group is quite poor compared to other states, its a good food for thought why if thought properly ofcourse.



Sir, my family in india lives in Lucknow, Chowk area behind where that run-down police station is and i hav family in delhi and bombay as well. (dunno the proper locations though!) I mean they told me all this themselves, if u wanna ask them u are more than welcome... even i've been there 5 times and i've felt the majorities bias all the time! Each time i mentioned i am a Pakistani i recieved a tirade of anti-pakistani talk, the dislike shows clearly on the faces!

Man it is the truth, that is the way minorities in your country feel! Ignored and unaccepted! They don't go around saying it all the time cauz they are afraid but inside thats how many of them feel. I have heard of no one in my Indian family sending kids to madrassas and they barely seem to know if they exist!  Lose election? Indias Population is:

Hindu 80.5%, Muslim 13.4%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other 1.8%, unspecified 0.1% 
<https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/in.html>

If hindus represent 80% of the population and muslim 13% that definately means that politicians do not even have to care about the muslim population as they can win the election anyway! There is a hindu majority everywhere exept in Kashmir where the muslims are oppressed! tchhhh... is'nt the government at fault for ignoring them and favouring hindus all this time! You can even take me as an example, i am supposed to be half indian but I've loved only Pakistan! Why? So i say about so many muslims... why do they not feel as loyal to india as hindus, the answer is simply because you never accepted them!

(Genmirajborgza i await ur reply to that huge post back there!)


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## haviZsultan

roadrunner said:


> Why don't you answer the reply instead of throwing emotional tantrums at the messenger? It was you who quoted a piece from virtualBangladesh claiming pompuosly the article was written by the Sunday Times, only to be proven it was not, correct? Are my facts right or wrong regarding discrimination of Bharati Muslims in Bharat?
> 
> PS Point out where I've contradicted myself in this thread. I'm pretty fluent on the war of Independence, so instead of swearing needlessly, point out where the contradiction lies in this thread.



Its the same thing with this dude and Salim. just don't want to answer the posts when they can't deny the truth. They are just ignoring the post and denying it as irrelevent because they can't answer!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

YouTube - Liberation war Bangladesh, 1971

YouTube - 25th March 1971 [The Liberation war Bangladesh]


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## Tiki Tam Tam

dimension117 said:


> Sir, my family in india lives in Lucknow, Chowk area behind where that run-down police station is and i hav family in delhi and bombay as well. (dunno the proper locations though!) I mean they told me all this themselves, if u wanna ask them u are more than welcome... even i've been there 5 times and i've felt the majorities bias all the time! Each time i mentioned i am a Pakistani i recieved a tirade of anti-pakistani talk, the dislike shows clearly on the faces!
> 
> Man it is the truth, that is the way minorities in your country feel! Ignored and unaccepted! They don't go around saying it all the time cauz they are afraid but inside thats how many of them feel. I have heard of no one in my Indian family sending kids to madrassas and they barely seem to know if they exist!  Lose election? Indias Population is:
> 
> Hindu 80.5&#37;, Muslim 13.4%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other 1.8%, unspecified 0.1%
> <https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/in.html>
> 
> If hindus represent 80% of the population and muslim 13% that definately means that politicians do not even have to care about the muslim population as they can win the election anyway! There is a hindu majority everywhere exept in Kashmir where the muslims are oppressed! tchhhh... is'nt the government at fault for ignoring them and favouring hindus all this time! You can even take me as an example, i am supposed to be half indian but I've loved only Pakistan! Why? So i say about so many muslims... why do they not feel as loyal to india as hindus, the answer is simply because you never accepted them!
> 
> (Genmirajborgza i await ur reply to that huge post back there!)



It is not that I don't want to answer.

It is just that the same issue gets repeated in a new skin. 

I am not in the game of brownie points.

Right now, you have a new issue and so I will answer.

First of all, it is regrettable that your family in India, being Moslems, should feel that they are alienated.

I would not blame the population of India for the same. I blame the politicians for keeping alive the differences (not only on the religious grounds) because it suits the political agenda and ensures their votes by either appeasing or by raising the bogey! 

On the election issue, inspite of Hindus being the majority, there is the caste divide that is played up. Therefore, it is not Hindus en bloc.In Bihar and UP, the Moslem votes and the Yadav votes and the Valmiki votes can make or break a govt!

If you notice, the India US nuke deal has gone into a spin. Not because it is in the interest or damage to the country, India, as such. It has gone into a spin because the Communists are against anything that would draw India towards the US (since it would be detrimental to their mentor, China). The Communists waited all along till the 123 Agreement was to be signed so that a big hue and cry could be created and they could portray themselves as the sole defendant of India's sovereignty. Human memory runs short and they are exploiting that. To imagine that the Communists are the champion of India's sovereignty when they had opposed the Quit India Movement (because Stalin had become the chum of UK), called the Indian Independence as False (BT Ranadive), supported the Chinese in 1962 and now they want to sabotage the Nuke deal!

That apart, the interesting fallout is not the Communists, but the other political parties who are in the Coalition that form the UPA which runs the govt headed by the Congress. Unlike the Pakistani Moslems who support Bush's War on Terror, the Indian Moslems are dead against the US and anything US.

Manmohan Singh is dead keen to get the 123 through, but now that the Communists may take back their support and the govt may fall leading to election, Laloo Pershad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav et al have got cold feet! Suddenly, they (who are a part of the UPA or supporting the UPA) find it difficult to support the Congress on the deal, which they have been doing so far and without any protest!

Why?

Because the Moslems may vote against them in the election for supporting the 123 which is making India pro US.

It is these politicians, who have no national interest in their heart and only self interest for the _gaddi_ (seat) who are the cause of all the divides that you observe in this country,.

Next time you come to India, visit me and let us see which character heckles you for being a Pakistani. He will have to face me first and then you, that is if he can get past me!

It is regrettable that you say that Indian Moslems do not feel loyal to India. If my friends heard you, then these are the chaps who would really pounce on you.


----------



## roadrunner

joey said:


> when did any magazine or any government for that matter started counting the whole macro-econmy of India? 26&#37; and 23% , I dont think its a big deal.



Is 40% v 22% on under $6 a day not a big deal in the cities? 



> Regarding illiteracy = less jobs = poor, I'm sorry to say I have seen hundreds of cases where rural or even local community Muslims instead of sending them to schools sends them to madrasas you just have to come and see such thing, even madrasa board is recognised but problem is often other than a few dont come with flying colors from madrasas in representing the future economy its reality. If such issue is true for Pakistan how it can not be true for India? You just cannot go and ask villagers okay stop sending them to madrasas, you'll then loose election and will brand you as anti-Islamic. They themselve are at fault here and their leadership whom they support blindly.



With this attitude, you can see why minorities are discriminated against in Bharat. Saying that the poor figures for Muslims compared to Hindus is due to the Muslims own fault is exactly the sort of problem that will ensure this sort of discrimination is never sorted out in Bharat, as the article from TIME suggests. There is a reason why people send kids to madrassahs. The reason in Pakistan is that people who cannot afford educaion can get free education in madrassahs, the same is probably true of Bharat. The whole system in Bharat is against the Muslims. They are poorer than the Hindus, and less of them can afford schools, so they send them to madrassahs and get a poor education which is at least an education. The solution to this even I know, yet the Bharat government hasnt implemented any solution. They like you, also blame it on the Muslims themselves who are too poor to afford Bharati schools. As soon as the proper quotas are given to Muslims in jobs within public and later private sector, the Muslims of Bharat will continue to send their children to madrassahs for an education and you will still continue your baseless denial that it is their own faults for sending them to such centres even though you disregard the reasons why the system is so against them that they have to resort to doing this. This is true discrimination, not what Pakistan was doing pre-1971 in both parts of the country.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

roadrunner said:


> With this attitude, you can see why minorities are discriminated against in Bharat. will still continue your baseless denial that it is their own faults for sending them to such centres even though you disregard the reasons why the system is so against them that they have to resort to doing this. This is true discrimination, not what Pakistan was doing pre-1971 in both parts of the country.



_Now to prove your point wrong i have only one question then why did Pakistan break up in just 23 years since its establishment ? would you please care to explain sir'? while India has just celebrated 60 years of it's independence including the Indo-Canadian community here in Canada with India still being intact in one piece._


----------



## roadrunner

genmirajborgza786 said:


> _Now to prove your point wrong i have only one question then why did Pakistan break up in just 23 years since its establishment ? would you please care to explain sir'? while India has just celebrated 60 years of it independence including the Indo-Canadian community here in Canada with India still being intact in one piece._



Answered before. Perceived discrimination caused by Mujib's propaganda to achieve his aim of an independent country, backed by the Bharatis. How does East and West Pakistan splitting up prove that discrimination took place in pre-1971 Pakistan by the way?


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Holism is the denominator for any analysis.


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> It is not that I don't want to answer.
> 
> It is just that the same issue gets repeated in a new skin.
> 
> I am not in the game of brownie points.
> 
> Right now, you have a new issue and so I will answer.



 We celebrate the return of Salim and congratulate him as he has managed to answer atleast one question. The involvement of India in the Bangladesh War he has ignored as "irrelevent" and as "the same issue repeated in a new skin" although scrolling back down the pages will reveal that Indias involvement and purposes have not been discussed till now!

You aren't in the game of brownie points... oh now i know, i am so sorry that i did not realize it before! Anyway, what about the game of scoring pinkie points?

Oh, its a new issue as if i did not mention the issue in that huge post back there... okay fine, the tiger is always right!



Salim said:


> First of all, it is regrettable that your family in India, being Moslems, should feel that they are alienated.
> 
> I would not blame the population of India for the same. I blame the politicians for keeping alive the differences (not only on the religious grounds) because it suits the political agenda and ensures their votes by either appeasing or by raising the bogey!
> 
> On the election issue, inspite of Hindus being the majority, there is the caste divide that is played up. Therefore, it is not Hindus en bloc.In Bihar and UP, the Moslem votes and the Yadav votes and the Valmiki votes can make or break a govt!



 I know its regrettable that is why i am on the brink of collapse right now. 

Well atleast you aren't blaming Pakistan for your problems! Yup me too I blame the politicians too for keeping the old hatred alive but aren't many indian people like that too? I don't think some hindus need the governments help to hate muslims.

But the muslim population is too small in proportion to the hindu population so i don't really think your votes count that much! Thats what my uncle told me... he said muslims in india were like cattle led to wherever the qovernment led them or wanted them to go! Caste divide? The muslim caste in India suffer much more proverty than other castes... muslims as a caste in india are weak and ignored as well! I dunno why you don't see it. Well i haven't ever heard of "muslim votes making or breaking the government" Has any government in India ever been formed because of the widespread acceptance of muslims?

 Salim are you going to some madrassa in india? Joey said many muslims go to madrassahs in india but i haven't seen or heard about a single one going to madrassahs... Well you did tell me that you were uneducated and unskilled so you stayed in India, remember... so I thought about asking you! Well anyway he said it was u indian muslims fault that u went to madrassas which made u illiterate!



Salim said:


> If you notice, the India US nuke deal has gone into a spin. Not because it is in the interest or damage to the country, India, as such. It has gone into a spin because the Communists are against anything that would draw India towards the US (since it would be detrimental to their mentor, China). The Communists waited all along till the 123 Agreement was to be signed so that a big hue and cry could be created and they could portray themselves as the sole defendant of India's sovereignty. Human memory runs short and they are exploiting that. To imagine that the Communists are the champion of India's sovereignty when they had opposed the Quit India Movement (because Stalin had become the chum of UK), called the Indian Independence as False (BT Ranadive), supported the Chinese in 1962 and now they want to sabotage the Nuke deal!
> 
> That apart, the interesting fallout is not the Communists, but the other political parties who are in the Coalition that form the UPA which runs the govt headed by the Congress. Unlike the Pakistani Moslems who support Bush's War on Terror, the Indian Moslems are dead against the US and anything US.



Well I don't think it is anything new that you are blaming someone you don't like for your misfortunes! Today it is the communists, yesterday it was Lashker-E-Taiba, Day before yesterday it was the Kashmiris, before that it was Pakistan and tomarrow it will be someone else! So u are saying they are only doing this for their love of China just because their ideoligies meet? What hypocracy is this? I understand you are trying to say that the parties work for self interest but there is no self-interest i see here... the communists have always suffered hatred ever since the system was created!

Man, we support Musharrafs decision to support America in defeating al-qaeda and the taliban because they had done a wrong by slaying so many people but none of us supports the so-called war on terror which is branding great organizatons such as hezbollah and revolutionary guards as terrorists! We like most muslims hate americas pathetic foreign policy...  dead against the US? I have never heard that... comeon what are you trying to prove... don't kid yourself... atleast don't make up vague statements, i can say that the muslims in Pakistan are more anti-US than those in India. A survey questioning Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians and Bangladeshis found this out! Muslims in India are less concerned about the actions of USA than the muslims of Iran and Pakistan and comeon do some of my cousins in India wanna go to USA for no reason? Don't try to invent stuff! Are you trying to say you care about your religion more than us?



Salim said:


> Manmohan Singh is dead keen to get the 123 through, but now that the Communists may take back their support and the govt may fall leading to election, Laloo Pershad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav et al have got cold feet! Suddenly, they (who are a part of the UPA or supporting the UPA) find it difficult to support the Congress on the deal, which they have been doing so far and without any protest!
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because the Moslems may vote against them in the election for supporting the 123 which is making India pro US.
> 
> It is these politicians, who have no national interest in their heart and only self interest for the _gaddi_ (seat) who are the cause of all the divides that you observe in this country,.



Good, at least you don't blame pakistan for your internal political problems too... ohhhh so you are saying that it is the muslims who are making them change their policies? thats totally vague, a lot of other factors and reasons are involved for the parties withdrawing. You talk like all the indian muslims do not want the deal to go by and all indian mozlems are anti-US although the survey proves otherwise. Well i have never seen indians in my family swear and curse Americans as people from my Khandaan in Pakistan have. 

If u wanna prove that Indian muslims are so Anti-American why do you not call urself "The Indian Taliban" and become mullahs and start a "jihad" against the Americans? Truth is if you had so many Anti-American muslims in India you would have 5 times as many problems with militancy and terrorism because those anti-americans would first think about fighting the injustices in their own country first! Yaaayy i scored a brownie point... u said u were not a mullah and you were!!! I got you!  

As I said don't try to make things up, it won't work as I am half-indian no matter how much i hate being called that... 



Salim said:


> Next time you come to India, visit me and let us see which character heckles you for being a Pakistani. He will have to face me first and then you, that is if he can get past me!
> 
> It is regrettable that you say that Indian Moslems do not feel loyal to India. If my friends heard you, then these are the chaps who would really pounce on you.


What about widespread hatred for Pakistan which you have not been willing to comment upon as you cannot deny... Well my cousin told me never to mention i was a pakistani, he actually shook me and told me I was half-indian and to atleast say that. He also told me about some of the comments about pakistanis mentioned there. Some of them were:

1) This is a debate of college students of what they would do if they saw a pakistani in India: 
a>The day i see a pakistani here i will kill him with my own hands! 
b> I will slay him with my grand-fathers sword... 
c> I will... all women in his household and will leave his father begging (because of the language they used here and how they graphically spoke about what they would do to the women it is just better to say they said "they will destroy his family")

2) We will throw pakistanis back to the gutters from where they belong 

3) Pakistani males are ummm... male-oriented and deserved to be drowned...

4) Pakistani women were born to get... (well i can't mention this one cauz i will be kicked out for violating the privacy policy) they also mentioned pakistani women bleeding and screaming.

Thats some of the stuff he tells me he has heard... I know you are enjoying this and reading it over and over again just for the enjoyment dude, but i am sorry and I can't please you anymore... I mean i pleased you with these comments as you are the guests here...

Nah, i ain't too sure of that. I mean you don't need to take the trouble and you know its a dangerous world... i mean seeing you peoples love for Pakistanis portrayed through those 4 comments i heard i am quite sure you will NOT pick me off the street and beat the hell out of me as soon as you see me  Yes, ofcourse i am sure to find only love, welcome and acceptance at your doorstep as I always have in India!

Anyway you haven't answered anything about Indias stand on Bangladesh and your lust for money and land which brought you there which checking back to atleast 10 pages there is nothing about! (You said it was being repeated over and over again as you said about the Pakistan hatred in India thing...) I think you should find a better excuse when you are trying to avoid stuff! and dodge difficult questions!

1. Indias stand on Bangladesh.

2. Hatred for Pakistan.

3. Treatment of minorities in India... convince me that minorities are not treated badly in your country cauz i am not in anyway convinced and nor are my family living in your own land!

So this is what I want you to answer, otherwise me and everyone on this site who has been noticing our conversation will view you as a loser. If you have any honour you will surely give a proper reply!

Just look back until page 30 to look at what I said till here! U'll know what I have been talking about!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> dimension117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We celebrate the return of Salim and congratulate him as he has managed to answer atleast one question. The involvement of India in the Bangladesh War he has ignored as "irrelevent" and as "the same issue repeated in a new skin" although scrolling back down the pages will reveal that Indias involvement has not been discussed!
> 
> You aren't in the game of brownie points... oh now i know, i am so sorry that i did not realize it before! Anyway, what about the game of scoring pinkie points?
> 
> Oh, its a new issue as if i did not mention the issue in that huge post back there... okay fine, the tiger is always right!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be frank I am tired of brownie points or pinkies that seems to be your forte.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well atleast you aren't blaming Pakistan for your problems! Yup me too I blame the politicians too for keeping the old hatred alive but aren't many indian people like that too? I don't think some hindus need the governments help to hate muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only the weak and insecure, who do not wish to admit their own faults like to blame others. It is 60 years that have gone past and if countries have not stabilised and are full of insecurity, it is the fault of their system and the weakness and fear of its people. Only those who are not confident of their own beliefs are the one who squirm and shake and blame the world.
> 
> I am not the spokesman for India, but on a personal note, I reckon idiots need not belong to only one country. Idiots are beyond borders and if some people hate Moslems, then they are idiots and viuce versa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the muslim population is too small in proportion to the hindu population so i don't really think your votes count that much! Thats what my uncle told me... he said muslims in india were like cattle led to wherever the qovernment led them or wanted them to go! Caste divide? The muslim caste in India suffer much more proverty than other castes... muslims as a caste in india are weak and ignored as well! I dunno why you don't see it. Well i haven't ever heard of "muslim votes making or breaking the government" Has any government in India ever been formed because of the widespread acceptance of muslims?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Indian govt is not to be formed for the acceptance of any community. It has to be acceptable to Indians of all hues. Why should a govt of India be formed to please Moslems alone? I fail to see the logic. Are govts of Pakistan formed to please the Christians and Hindus? Is the US President voted in to please the Negros? All govt is for the people, of the people and by the people! That is democracy!
> 
> I am afraid, with all due regards to your Uncle, he has to visit the rural India to realise what is poverty and then make a judgement. Laloo Pershad of Bihar and Mulayam Singh of UP are perfect example of what happens when the Yadav and Moslem votes get split. 20 years of fooling the people on false promises made all see the hoax being perpetuated for the politician personal power!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Salim are you going to some madrassa in india? Joey said many muslims go to madrassahs in india but i haven't seen or heard about a single one going to madrassahs... Well you did tell me that you were uneducated and unskilled so you stayed in India, remember... so I thought about asking you!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I live in Bengal. Yes, quite a few Moslems go to the Madrassas. Nothing wrong in that. The West Bengal govt has formalised the education and has brought it at par with the Higher Secondary level of education. I never said I am uneducated or unskilled. Does my English indicate it so? I said the majority of Moslems who remained were not the educated ones and to whom it matter nothing since all the high morals being spouted during the Partition in no way affected their sad state of affairs! You must understand the fear of the unknown. The Homeland for Moslem i.e. Pakistan was a great salve for the soul for the Moslems, but to the unlettered, they neither had seen it or experienced it. In India, they knew exactly where they were and what could be expected of life, because they had seen and experienced it. Therefore, for the good or the worse, they took comfort in the known.
> 
> Till late, Indian Moslems did not strive to improve themselves. However, when the majority realised that a small family would make the family income go a long way, they did their best and got their children educated. Today, they occupy high ranks in govt, police and even the Army where the Deputy Chief is a Moslem! The richest man in India is the IT King, who just happens to be a Moslem! Those days are gone where the Moslem was merely an artisan and a shanty dweller!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I don't think it is anything new that you are blaming someone you don't like for your misfortunes! Today it is the communists, yesterday it was Lashker-E-Taiba, Day before yesterday it was the Kashmiris, before that it was Pakistan and tomarrow it will be someone else! So u are saying they are only doing this for their love of China just because their ideoligies meet? What hypocracy is this? I understand you are trying to say that the parties work for self interest but there is no self-interest i see here... the communists have always suffered hatred ever since the system was created!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not blaming Communists at all. I am just indicating what scoundrels they are. I have held this opinion all through. Would you appreciate if a Pakistan held allegiance to a foreign power? If you do, then you are a Saint. I am no Saint and I know that.
> 
> It is a interesting idea of yours that political parties don't work for their self interest. I presume, BB, NS, Musharraf, the Choudhuris, Imran Khan, Altaf et al are all Second Coming of Christ to heal the world, more importantly, Pakistan!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man, we support Musharrafs decision to support America in defeating al-qaeda and the taliban because they had done a wrong by slaying so many people but none of us supports the so-called war on terror which is branding great organizatons such as hezbollah and revolutionary guards as terrorists! We like most muslims hate americas pathetic foreign policy...  dead against the US? I have never heard that... comeon what are you trying to prove... don't kid yourself... atleast don't make up vague statements, i can say that the muslims in Pakistan are more anti-US than those in India. A survey questioning Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians and Bangladeshis found this out! Muslims in India are less concerned about the actions of USA than the muslims of Iran and Pakistan and comeon do some of my cousins in India wanna go to USA for no reason? Don't try to invent stuff! Are you trying to say you care about ur religion more than us?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The interesting part is that I have no religion since in my opinion religion bogs down a person's individuality. Religion is also necessary for those who require the some crutch to make up for the deficiency of the confidence in oneself. All religions speak of good, but all religions work to organise strife and divide mankind. Think of it. Are you any different from me or is a AQ activist any different from my physical attributes? So, why kill on something one has not seen?
> 
> I am not here on a competition which country's Moslem hate the US more. If Pakistanis are rabidly against the US so be it. But sadly, one should not also extend the begging bowl to someone one hates!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good, at least you don't blame pakistan for your internal political problems too... ohhhh so you are saying that it is the muslims who are making them change their policies? thats totally vague, a lot of other factors and reasons are involved for the parties withdrawing. You talk like all the indian muslims do not want the deal to go by and all indians are anti-US although the survey proves otherwise. Well i have never seen indians in my family swear and curse Americans as people from my Khandaan in Pakistan have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I give way. You and your relatives know more about India than anyone in India. It is fine with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If u wanna prove that Indian muslims are so Anti-American why do you not call urself "The Indian Taliban" and become mullahs and start a "jihad" against the Americans? Truth is if you had so many Anti-American muslims in India you would have 5 times as many problems with militancy and terrorism because those anti-americans would first think about fighting the injustices in their own country first! Yaaayy i scored a brownie point... u said u were not a mullah and you were!!! I got you!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should I go on a jihad against the US?
> 
> What harm have they done to my country?
> 
> Only a lunatic or a oddball like Don Quixote fought against windmills!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said don't try to make things up, it won't work as I am half-indian no matter how much i hate it...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good that at least you have the goodness and guts claim that you are half Indian. Hopefully, you will bridge this stupid gap that Indians and Pakistanis love to dwell in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about widespread hatred for Pakistan which you have not been willing to comment upon as you cannot deny... Well my cousin told me never to mention i was a pakistani, he actually shook me and told me I was half-indian and to atleast say that. He also told me about some of the comments about pakistanis mentioned there. Some of them were:
> 
> 1) This is a debate of college students of what they would do if they saw a pakistani in India:
> a>The day i see a pakistani here i will kill him with my own hands!
> b> I will slay him with my grand-fathers sword...
> c> I will... all women in his household and will leave his father begging (because of the language they used here and how they graphically spoke about what they would do to the women it is just better to say they said "they will destroy his family")
> 
> 2) We will throw pakistanis back to the gutters from where they belong
> 
> 3) Pakistani males are ummm... male-oriented and deserved to be drowned...
> 
> 4) Pakistani women were born to get... (well i can't mention this one cauz i will be kicked out for violating the privacy policy) they also mentioned pakistani women bleeding and screaming.
> 
> Thats some of the stuff he tells me he has heard... I know you are enjoying this and reading it over and over again just for the heck of it dude but i am sorry and I can't please you anymore... i mean i did please you with these comments as you are the guests here...
> 
> Nah, i ain't too sure of that. I mean you don't need to take the trouble and you know its a dangerous world... i mean seeing you peoples love for Pakistanis portrayed through those 4 comments i heard i am quite sure you will NOT pick me off the street and beat the hell out of me as soon as you see me  Yes, ofcourse i am sure to find only love, welcome and acceptance at your doorstep as I always have in India!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If big talk could mean the destruction, then the world would have been destroyed long back. The silly statements of silly college boys are things that I couldn't care less about. They can take a running jump into the Arabian Sea and if they are so sure, whey don't they put their money where there is mouth is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway you haven't answered anything about Indias stand on Bangladesh and your lust for money and land which brought you there which checking back to atleast 10 pages there is nothing about! (You said it was being repeated over and over again as you said about the Pakistan hatred in India thing...) I think you should find a better excuse when you are trying to avoid stuff!
> 
> 1. Indias stand on Bangladesh.
> 
> 2. Hatred for Pakistan.
> 
> 3. Treatment of minorities in India... convince me that minorities are not treated badly in your country cauz i am not in anyway convinced and nor are my family living in your own land!
> 
> So this is what I want you to answer me otherwise me and everyone on this site who has been noticing our conversation will view you as a loser. If you have any honour you will surely give a proper reply
> 
> Just look back until page 30 to look at what I said till here! U'll know what I have been talking about!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Does it please you immensely that I look a loser?
> 
> And does it really matter to me as to what some in the cyberspace think of me?
> 
> Hardly.
> 
> Chum, I have been banned from two forums of the cyberspace and I have been asked to return.
> 
> That proves my worth and it also proves that there is some value in what I say.
> 
> However, that does not in anyway mean I am a _Khalifa_!
Click to expand...


----------



## haviZsultan

Woah, that was quick. Looks like you were very angry when you typed that... you know like the sort of rage u gyz felt when you lost Pakistan. Hrrrrrr!!! Anyway, atleast take more time to read the post... u made sum mistakes 



Salim said:


> To be frank I am tired of brownie points or pinkies that seems to be your forte.



How unfortunate! I was thinking of having some more fun! Read my post... i've even praised you in the end!



Salim said:


> Only the weak and insecure, who do not wish to admit their own faults like to blame others. It is 60 years that have gone past and if countries have not stabilised and are full of insecurity, it is the fault of their system and the weakness and fear of its people. Only those who are not confident of their own beliefs are the one who squirm and shake and blame the world.
> 
> I am not the spokesman for India, but on a personal note, I reckon idiots need not belong to only one country. Idiots are beyond borders and if some people hate Moslems, then they are idiots and viuce versa.



Huh! Did'nt you just blame your system... so that means you are not confident in your beliefs and feel insecure?

True, atleast you managed to admit that India has idiots too instead of trying to pick the ones in Pakistan and then shouting that you found an idiot in Pakistan!



Salim said:


> The Indian govt is not to be formed for the acceptance of any community. It has to be acceptable to Indians of all hues. Why should a govt of India be formed to please Moslems alone? I fail to see the logic. Are govts of Pakistan formed to please the Christians and Hindus? Is the US President voted in to please the Negros? All govt is for the people, of the people and by the people! That is democracy!
> 
> I am afraid, with all due regards to your Uncle, he has to visit the rural India to realise what is poverty and then make a judgement. Laloo Pershad of Bihar and Mulayam Singh of UP are perfect example of what happens when the Yadav and Moslem votes get split. 20 years of fooling the people on false promises made all see the hoax being perpetuated for the politician personal power!



Yes i know, that makes India a democratic country. I never said it should be formed to please Moslems alone! Why are u making things up again? Anyway that proves that ur votes do not even count because the majorities votes nullify them... it proves that the government has no need to look after your interests! It is all but true... deny it if you want!

A mistake u made: My uncle was talking about the political scenario in India not proverty! He meant that muslims had no political power and just moved with the winds if i may call it so! U admitted that the previous governments made false promises!!! Did you see a new sun today?




Salim said:


> I live in Bengal. Yes, quite a few Moslems go to the Madrassas. Nothing wrong in that. The West Bengal govt has formalised the education and has brought it at par with the Higher Secondary level of education. I never said I am uneducated or unskilled. Does my English indicate it so? I said the majority of Moslems who remained were not the educated ones and to whom it matter nothing since all the high morals being spouted during the Partition in no way affected their sad state of affairs! You must understand the fear of the unknown. The Homeland for Moslem i.e. Pakistan was a great salve for the soul for the Moslems, but to the unlettered, they neither had seen it or experienced it. In India, they knew exactly where they were and what could be expected of life, because they had seen and experienced it. Therefore, for the good or the worse, they took comfort in the known.
> 
> Till late, Indian Moslems did not strive to improve themselves. However, when the majority realised that a small family would make the family income go a long way, they did their best and got their children educated. Today, they occupy high ranks in govt, police and even the Army where the Deputy Chief is a Moslem! The richest man in India is the IT King, who just happens to be a Moslem! Those days are gone where the Moslem was merely an artisan and a shanty dweller!



What are you trying to say? So this is your life story? So this is why you stayed in India? Okay i feel sorry for you is this what you wanted me to say? Yeah i understand you people had no choice! Don't worry though... keep smiling!

You really think so! Yeah, but the majority is still hostile towards you and unwilling to let you reach that position! Its great that some people have still managed but otherwise muslims are the weakest group in your country!



Salim said:


> I am not blaming Communists at all. I am just indicating what scoundrels they are. I have held this opinion all through. Would you appreciate if a Pakistan held allegiance to a foreign power? If you do, then you are a Saint. I am no Saint and I know that.
> 
> It is a interesting idea of yours that political parties don't work for their self interest. I presume, BB, NS, Musharraf, the Choudhuris, Imran Khan, Altaf et al are all Second Coming of Christ to heal the world, more importantly, Pakistan!



Scoundrels!?!?... you are blaming them! You just blamed them of being scoundrels! So you are saying they have woved their allegiance to china without any proof! This proves that you are insecure and your postition is weak! Let me tell you where this insecurity comes from! Because u don't like China which has supported us and helped us very often. 
I dunno why you people have this constant urge to punish Pakistanis and anyone who has supported them or helped them in the past and present! This is where your hate for the communist party comes from and so does this absurd idea that support of the party comes from China! This same hatred brought you to Bangladesh... man, do you learn nothing from your past???

 This is why i said u made mistakes! Read carefully! I said that political parties DO work for self-interest but i also said that the Communist Party gains nothing for itself< no self interest> by being a puppet of China!!! 




Salim said:


> The interesting part is that I have no religion since in my opinion religion bogs down a person's individuality. Religion is also necessary for those who require the some crutch to make up for the deficiency of the confidence in oneself. All religions speak of good, but all religions work to organise strife and divide mankind. Think of it. Are you any different from me or is a AQ activist any different from my physical attributes? So, why kill on something one has not seen?
> 
> I am not here on a competition which country's Moslem hate the US more. If Pakistanis are rabidly against the US so be it. But sadly, one should not also extend the begging bowl to someone one hates!



True. I follow your lead! I have no religion either! I do what you do  Yes religions do divide man-kind! true to the core!... Well i haven't seen you exactly to compare physical attributes... just kidding! 

Well i agree, yup, its one of the few pieces of truth that come from you! <no kidding>

Well you started the competition by saying Indians hate Americans more so i just presented you with the truth!  Hey, don't get used to it... we are not begging them for anything unlike India screaming for a nuclear deal to get through. We just did what was best for our nation and we will continue doing it for centuries to come no matter how much u want Pakistan to get buried under the ground!



Salim said:


> I give way. You and your relatives know more about India than anyone in India. It is fine with me.



 Thank you very much! See thats what i am talking about! You should do this often! Anyway I always knew I was right! I think its my perfection that i have come to rely on...



Salim said:


> Why should I go on a jihad against the US?
> 
> What harm have they done to my country?
> 
> Only a lunatic or a oddball like Don Quixote fought against windmills!



Well u were suggesting that all indian muslims were mullahs and anti-american so it makes sense...

The nuclear deal? Is'nt that harm? They might withdraw from the deal so that would give you reason enough to attack them!

 I think i will write all your examples down! "A lunitic will fight against windmills"... okay done, the tiger is always right! Next!



Salim said:


> Good that at least you have the goodness and guts claim that you are half Indian. Hopefully, you will bridge this stupid gap that Indians and Pakistanis love to dwell in.



Well i wish to and so do many Pakistanis but you guys simply do not give us the opportunity to do so! In truth what i say today is the result of the treatment I recieved in your country and from your countrymen and the constant bias i felt there as does my family there! Furthermore you do not want to admit your mistakes while u want to keep highlighting ours and spraying salt on old wounds! 

I mean it is true is it not? What are you doing to change it? Majority of you are not even ready to admit your mistakes... Does it not embarass you to hear all this about the treatment of minorities, treatment of pakistanis etc. in your country which you cannot even deny? You are a muslim, you cannot deny the fact that prejudices still remain as no muslim in India can!

So the question is do YOU want to bridge the gap? Do you come here daily to set our differences aside? If yes then we would readily die to destroy that gap that exists between us! <No humour there my freind!>




Salim said:


> If big talk could mean the destruction, then the world would have been destroyed long back. The silly statements of silly college boys are things that I couldn't care less about. They can take a running jump into the Arabian Sea and if they are so sure, whey don't they put their money where there is mouth is?



Well the sort of rage they insite within us u wud not imagine! No one can hear all this about his family and his people! These people are destroying your reputation all across the world do you know that? Do you even care? No, it does'nt mean destruction directly but it does mean hatred, murder and slaughter! These are the sort of comments that lead to them! 

Anyway atleast u are admitting that they were wrong! 



Salim said:


> Does it please you immensely that I look a loser?
> 
> And does it really matter to me as to what some in the cyberspace think of me?
> 
> Hardly.
> 
> Chum, I have been banned from two forums of the cyberspace and I have been asked to return.
> 
> That proves my worth and it also proves that there is some value in what I say.
> 
> However, that does not in anyway mean I am a _Khalifa_!



No, it does not! I have no intention of making you look like a loser... but your actions decide if you are a loser or not! I would say that today you are a winner because you have admitted that there are injustices in your country and there are people who hate muslims and/or Pakistanis and that they are wrong! For you that is a lot! It is nice to think like a human if you have noticed  

I don't suppose so! 

Oh really i have been banned from 3. Ohhh really how does it feel like to be banned and called back and how do i know u did not pay the site behind the curtain to bring you back just so u could come here and say this?

I know u are very worthy! I understand, true, true, ofcourse there is value, ya ya... u're more valueble than a diamond. Ofcourse u are Khalifa... i mean there is so much value in what u say, ur words means more than the words of a thousand souls... if any1n denies you he should commit suicide!

Yeah, now I do view you as the more moderate of the Indians and I respect you for not blindly supporting all the "idiots" i have talked about! I have never seen an Indian admit his countries mistakes before... but may i ask what brings this sudden turn and makes you think like a human! It almost makes me pity you because seeing such a thing is so rare! Salim is an endangered species now!!!

Okay, now what about my 3 questions?


----------



## joey

dimension117 said:


> Sir, my family in india lives in Lucknow, Chowk area behind where that run-down police station is and i hav family in delhi and bombay as well. (dunno the proper locations though!) I mean they told me all this themselves, if u wanna ask them u are more than welcome... even i've been there 5 times and i've felt the majorities bias all the time! Each time i mentioned i am a Pakistani i recieved a tirade of anti-pakistani talk, the dislike shows clearly on the faces!
> 
> Man it is the truth, that is the way minorities in your country feel! Ignored and unaccepted! They don't go around saying it all the time cauz they are afraid but inside thats how many of them feel. I have heard of no one in my Indian family sending kids to madrassas and they barely seem to know if they exist!  Lose election? Indias Population is:
> 
> Hindu 80.5&#37;, Muslim 13.4%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other 1.8%, unspecified 0.1%
> <https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/in.html>
> 
> If hindus represent 80% of the population and muslim 13% that definately means that politicians do not even have to care about the muslim population as they can win the election anyway! There is a hindu majority everywhere exept in Kashmir where the muslims are oppressed! tchhhh... is'nt the government at fault for ignoring them and favouring hindus all this time! You can even take me as an example, i am supposed to be half indian but I've loved only Pakistan! Why? So i say about so many muslims... why do they not feel as loyal to india as hindus, the answer is simply because you never accepted them!
> 
> (Genmirajborgza i await ur reply to that huge post back there!)



Dear I dont think you have proper idea to analyse on the broader base your trying to repsent or speak off,

1. Anti-Pakistani taunts does not relates to being anti-minority.
2. Yes How many you want to see peoples opting for madrasas over primary school? come to my place I'll show you.
3. You have ZERO idea about Indian politics, Indian Muslim population is heterogenous and plays a pivotal role in politics, and yes their vote bank is considered hugely important for most political parties because not a single group is homogenous in India. I repeat this again their vote bank can change election scenario due to the heterogenous level of their population dispersal.
4. PM me your families address, if you dont mind.
5. Whats your age? No offence meant.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Dimension,

Again you have gone on a street agitationist attitude. You know the professional type - those who would do anything for money, ideology or logic not being the criterion.

I give way. I am not a street fighter!


----------



## joey

I wrote a big/good reply but it got lost due to mainframe crash...so i'm typing it in short again..




roadrunner said:


> Is 40&#37; v 22% on under $6 a day not a big deal in the cities?



Yes It is a big deal if you see it that way, But your not getting the point here, The population is not homogenous for the kind of survey ,Time is speaking of absolute data by which no Economic representation can be done nor can you conclude discrimination in economic front without proper macro-economic data, Please refer to one of the official and very recent survey I gave to you which speaks of a survey from good volume in average household income where Muslims are no behind Hindu peers, This is becoming much like the talk since Muslims are getting inside jail in Mumbai blast case it must be Muslims who are victimised by police in India, Consider this expert from this report written by Omair Ahmed,



> Indian Muslims in Jail
> 
> In such cases it is possibly best to check the facts. The prison statistics from the National Crimes Record Bureau indicate that the percentage of Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of undertrials is 22.5%.
> 
> This is higher than the percentage of Muslims living in India, at 13.4% or thereabouts. It would be tempting to shout, &#8220;Aha! Proof of bias!&#8221; but a rigorous analysis would lead to a more nuanced view because of the geographic distribution of both prison population and Muslims. Over half of Indian Muslims live in the four states of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal and Assam, which account for 21% of convicted prisoners and 42% of undertrials in Indian jails. In effect Indian Muslims live in geographic areas where more people are sent to jail, either as convicts or as undertrials.
> 
> A far more fascinating result is that the percentage of Muslims who are undertrials is slightly less than that of those convicted. In other words proportionately more Muslims are adjudged &#8220;innocent&#8221; than Hindus (whose undertrial to convict ratio is: 69.6% to 70.7% and even Christians (whose undertrial to convict ratio is 3.8% to 4.2%).
> 
> Indian Muslims and Crime
> 
> The question of bias could also be turned on its head, and it could be said that high proportionately of Muslims means more crime. The data does not support such a conclusion.
> 
> The two states where such high population of people are in jail, Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, have a Muslim population of 18.5% and 16.5% respectively and contribute 6.7% and 5.4% of All-India crimes . West Bengal and Assam, in which the percentage of Muslims is at 25.2% and 30.9%, contribute only 3.6% and 2.3% of all-India crimes.
> 
> Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu all produce more than 8.5% of India&#8217;s crimes individually, making them the most crime-prone states in the country. In all of these high crime states Indian Muslims make up, at the most, 10.6% of the population, less than the Indian average.
> 
> The one state where Muslims constitute a majority of the population, at 67% in Jammu & Kashmir, which has been wracked by militancy and violence, contributes to only 1.1% of Indian crime, about the same as its population compared to all-India figures.



Put the same point of view which I'm trying to adress on the income level issue.



> With this attitude, you can see why minorities are discriminated against in Bharat.



Well I dont think my attitude or point of view translates to discrimination of minorities.



> Saying that the poor figures for Muslims compared to Hindus is due to the Muslims own fault is exactly the sort of problem that will ensure this sort of discrimination is never sorted out in Bharat, as the article from TIME suggests.



This is precisely the mistake your making, The fault really is with ones own community, To realise this you first need to know Muslim communities in India are not a homogenous community, A muslim community from South Bengal is normally more progressive than a Muslim community from North bengal, Such disparity exists everywhere, I put Bengal to represent a scale when Replace bengal with say a district. You need to realise just because Bihar as a state is not well off economically than haryana and muslim population in Bihar is more than in Haryana which in absolute scale would look like discrimination against minorities but NO, because here you need to factor in to compare the Muslims of Bihar with that of Hindus of Bihar. I've put this up simply without anything in detail but if you do bigger introspection you will see how the problem lies with themselves only and ofcouse times the leadership they represents.



> There is a reason why people send kids to madrassahs. The reason in Pakistan is that people who cannot afford educaion can get free education in madrassahs, the same is probably true of Bharat.



Government has primary school everywhere and they are free, and that is not the reason people send their kids to madrasas, sometimes they feels it is better to send them to madarasas over school, It is a heterogenous nature which you cannot change like this, which depends upon community to community.

I have told you before that Madrasa education is recognised and IMO there are some very bright students who comes from madrasa (probably those who stoods first/second/third in their board exams and they are directly picked up by universities), Problem is with the average joe madrasa education in a capitalistic society does not gets much recognition in ones later career life, nor the type of curriculum includes looking into the way of life the way it will propell one to opt for into the vigorous world of competition, thus they tend to be on the losing side, This is not uncommon for even state boards when students from there go in national level institutions, forget madrasas! This only stands for good madrasas, forget the madrasas that people normally opts for more in villages.



> The whole system in Bharat is against the Muslims.


You should not simply conclude something like this, because it is incorrect plain and simple.



> They are poorer than the Hindus, and less of them can afford schools, so they send them to madrassahs and get a poor education which is at least an education. The solution to this even I know, yet the Bharat government hasnt implemented any solution. They like you, also blame it on the Muslims themselves who are too poor to afford Bharati schools. As soon as the proper quotas are given to Muslims in jobs within public and later private sector, the Muslims of Bharat will continue to send their children to madrassahs for an education and you will still continue your baseless denial that it is their own faults for sending them to such centres even though you disregard the reasons why the system is so against them that they have to resort to doing this. This is true discrimination, not what Pakistan was doing pre-1971 in both parts of the country.



Please look What I said above regarding poorer points I also have presented you a article of official survey regarding the same before, as of quotas they are here for long time in government sector, hundreds are getting employed and hundreds are not getting employed, Recently I know one of SSC person who is a Muslim got employed in SSC (School Service Comission) whereeas his 2 Muslim friends did not got selected, so you'll ask them they'll say yes there are politics inside you'll ask the one who got selected he'll say 'if you do it right it will go on right', It is just to give you a perspective of view points.

Regarding Quotas in public sector, they are here from independence, What good have they done? I'll be damned if you can show me such quotas has helped for 50 years nor they will help things any more, The Sacchar report which talks of 29% quotas for certain gruops has been put on hold by the Apex court, and there is a damning reason for that. Quotas including the creamy layer are nothing but a excuse of vote bank politics and not de-centralising the education system in a better way among interior parts of country.

Lastly I'm no way putting the Muslim minority community as a highly progressive one like the Parsis, but to say majority discriminate against them being the reason of their backwardness with absolute data without introspection is nothing but oversimplication of a highly complex fact. Minorities in India are far and far free as being a 3rd world country than they can imagine of being in other countries of the same stature. Obviously some may argue it is secular the others times not, but non-secularism is alone not the reason of committing discrimination.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Dimesnion

You said you wanted to have fun and I reckon that is what you want.

However, it is too tiresome to read through your posts as it is too long and appear to say the same thing.



> He meant that muslims had no political power



It is immaterial whether Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists , Christians, Sikhs have political power. Don't you think that it is adequate that Indians themselves, irrespective of religion or community, have political power?

Where is the requirement whether a Moslem have political power or a Hindu has political power? Where is the requirement for a Tamil to have political power or a Punjabi to have political power. Is it not adequate that Indians have political power?

Example: Musharraf has political power. Does it mean that he is only looking after Sunnis and Mohajirs? Would it not be stupid if a Shia or a Punjabi claim discrimination that they have no political power because Musharraf, a Mohajir is the Head of the country! If that be the logic, then it is asinine logic as stupid as the thought Moslems have no political power in India!


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Dimesnion
> 
> You said you wanted to have fun and I reckon that is what you want.
> 
> However, it is too tiresome to read through your posts as it is too long and appear to say the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> It is immaterial whether Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists , Christians, Sikhs have political power. Don't you think that it is adequate that Indians themselves, irrespective of religion or community, have political power?
> 
> 
> Where is the requirement whether a Moslem have political power or a Hindu has political power? Where is the requirement for a Tamil to have political power or a Punjabi to have political power. Is it not adequate that Indians have political power?
> 
> Example: Musharraf has political power. Does it mean that he is only looking after Sunnis and Mohajirs? Would it not be stupid if a Shia or a Punjabi claim discrimination that they have no political power because Musharraf, a Mohajir is the Head of the country! If that be the logic, then it is asinine logic as stupid as the thought Moslems have no political power in India!



Atleast read the post! I went on to praise you and call you a more moderate indian than others and you are trying to tell me you are not a moderate indian?

What same thing? Why do you always do this when you don't want to answer! See u are blaming me now which means you are insecure! (according to you) There is always sumthing new... its a large post! 

All I am saying is that your votes simply do not count as the majorities nullify them... I mean obviously being a tamil or a muslim or whatever your views and desires are different!

I did not say that the current government deos not care about you but i was just saying that they don't really have to. I mean municipal and provincial government elections can be fine for some states, e.g. Hyderabad which has 60&#37; hindu-40% muslim. Hydrabadis may get some stuff they want in these elections... and play a significant role for voting for the provincial government and local govt. But in truth they have no power in federal government and the choices your country makes! 

You cannot change your countries foriegn policy for example many muslims in 1971 war did not want india to get involved in it. If you make up 13% of the poplulation then even if all that 13% vote against a government it makes little or no difference! That is all i am saying! 

You are indeed like cattle... also the way your poplulation is divided all across india makes you weak for example you are not the majority in any single state! You will go whereever your government takes you and are dependent on a good leader... the day someone who does not care about your views and opinions comes along that day you are in trouble!!! You are not playing any great role in electing your government I am sorry to say! Deny if you want!

No fun in this post! mate!


----------



## roadrunner

joey said:


> Yes It is a big deal if you see it that way, But your not getting the point here, The population is not homogenous for the kind of survey ,Time is speaking of absolute data by which no Economic representation can be done nor can you conclude discrimination in economic front without proper macro-economic data, Please refer to one of the official and very recent survey I gave to you which speaks of a survey from good volume in average household income where Muslims are no behind Hindu peers, This is becoming much like the talk since Muslims are getting inside jail in Mumbai blast case it must be Muslims who are victimised by police in India, Consider this expert from this report written by Omair Ahmed,



Wait wait wait. You say Time is speaking of "absolute" data, and that you cannot conclude discrimination on "macro-economic" data. Can you explain what you mean by this? Time is speaking of data from urban centres and rural ones isn't it? It doesn't seem to give a source, but you've concluded the data must be irrelevant. Can you explain why you have come to this conclusion? 



> This is precisely the mistake your making, The fault really is with ones own community, To realise this you first need to know Muslim communities in India are not a homogenous community, A muslim community from South Bengal is normally more progressive than a Muslim community from North bengal, Such disparity exists everywhere, I put Bengal to represent a scale when Replace bengal with say a district. You need to realise just because Bihar as a state is not well off economically than haryana and muslim population in Bihar is more than in Haryana which in absolute scale would look like discrimination against minorities but NO, because here you need to factor in to compare the Muslims of Bihar with that of Hindus of Bihar. I've put this up simply without anything in detail but if you do bigger introspection you will see how the problem lies with themselves only and ofcouse times the leadership they represents.



Again, you're assuming the people at TIMEasia don't know how to do a proper survey or have changed figures tosuit their content. Why would the people at TIMEasia select one Muslim from Bihar, and then take a more progressive Hindu from Delhi to compare to. Where is your evidence that TIMEasia have done this, or are you just assuming they've done this? 



> Government has primary school everywhere and they are free, and that is not the reason people send their kids to madrasas, sometimes they feels it is better to send them to madarasas over school, It is a heterogenous nature which you cannot change like this, which depends upon community to community.



Right. Primary school education is free. But Bharat doesn't have enough primary schools for all the children there. This much is pretty well known. So for the unfortunate Muslims who do not have the opportunity to send them to free primary schools, free madrassah education is the only other option. What about secondary education, is that free? 



> Please look What I said above regarding poorer points I also have presented you a article of official survey regarding the same before, as of quotas they are here for long time in government sector, hundreds are getting employed and hundreds are not getting employed, Recently I know one of SSC person who is a Muslim got employed in SSC (School Service Comission) whereeas his 2 Muslim friends did not got selected, so you'll ask them they'll say yes there are politics inside you'll ask the one who got selected he'll say 'if you do it right it will go on right', It is just to give you a perspective of view points.



Give the link to your survey. 



> Regarding Quotas in public sector, they are here from independence, What good have they done? I'll be damned if you can show me such quotas has helped for 50 years nor they will help things any more, The Sacchar report which talks of 29&#37; quotas for certain gruops has been put on hold by the Apex court, and there is a damning reason for that. Quotas including the creamy layer are nothing but a excuse of vote bank politics and not de-centralising the education system in a better way among interior parts of country.



Quotas need to be implemented, not just announced for publicity means. 3% out of a population of 13% is not implementing quotas. 



> Lastly I'm no way putting the Muslim minority community as a highly progressive one like the Parsis, but to say majority discriminate against them being the reason of their backwardness with absolute data without introspection is nothing but oversimplication of a highly complex fact. Minorities in India are far and far free as being a 3rd world country than they can imagine of being in other countries of the same stature. Obviously some may argue it is secular the others times not, but non-secularism is alone not the reason of committing discrimination.



What absolute data are you talking about? I don't see how you're coming to your conclusions the TIMEasia survey is wrong.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Dimension,

Noticed how many Moslems are in the forefront these days compared to the earlier times?

Sportsmen and women and filmstars are the best for mass appeal to change the mindset. Who is leading out there? One does not have to be a bull in a china shop!

Heard of the Haneef's case where he was declared a terrorist by the Australian govt. Observed the Indian reaction there?

India is not the same place as what it was in 1947.

And, oh yes, I forgot..... 
Rome was not built in one day!

Read the Sunni Shia divide thread on this forum. Except for Blain, there is a whole lot of realism dawning!

Let reality dawn and delusions fade in all aspects of life!

In this very forum when it was PFF, there was a silly debate whether Jinnah was a Shia or a Sunni. All forgot that whatever he may have been, his contribution to Moslems was what was important. The trouble is that one loves to wallow in the irrelevant and loses the sight of the big picture. Little battles to be won, even if the war is lost! What logic! Cut the nose to spite the face! Missing the wood for the trees!

Here, there are think tanks who blame Bengalis and India for breaking up Pakistan. Will it change history? It won't. And yet look at the US. It runs on merrily treading on all corns conceivable. And yet everyone craves for that Green Card! Even those who think that the US is the Great White Satan. What is the lure? The lure is that it is a very successful country that is rich, powerful and attractive! So, if we are not rich, powerful and attractive, then why blame people who do not wish to hang around.

Doctor, heal thyself is the only answer. Introspection.

Before some goes on the Bharat this and Bharat that, I would add that even India has to face destiny as it comes! No crying over spilt milk!


----------



## akzaman

*My dad Brigadier (Retd) Akhter Hamid Khan was sent to East Pakistan in 1971 to fight Sk. Muibur Rahman- An Appeal to Shabbir Bashar Bhai Sahab*

Akhter Javed Khan, Pakistan

I have been surfing NFB since last six months. I have never written in a media or public forum before. I was born in Bangladesh (East Pakistan) and brought up in Karachi, Pakistan. My life history has kept me sad for most of my childhood and adult life. Most of the time I was shaky and felt embarrassed. I didn't grow up like any other normal child and I have always wondered why my life has been like this. I was brought up mostly by my grand parents. 

My dad, a retired Pakistan Army Officer lived in a different city and used to visit his parents time to time. He always avoided me. I never felt his love for a son and he was always angry with me. I always wondered why he lives in a different city with his wife and 4 children, and why I could not live with them. Why his wife was not my mother and his children were not my brothers and sisters. My grandparents always avoided my questions on this issue. My grandmother once told me that his wife was not my biological mother. I always felt very inferior and neglected. When I was in college, one day I asked my grandfather about all these mysteries surrounding my dad's behaviour towards me. 

Initially, he didn't reply anything and was pretending busy reading a book. I got little arrogant and raised my voice and was insisting him to explain. He lost his patience and slapped me. He scolded me for being very disrespectful and arrogant and said, no wonder my behaviour was like that because I was half 'Bangal'. That incident had an strong impact on me. I then asked one of my grandfather's friend and neighbour about it. He was kind and said I would learn when I grow up more. But he said I was born in East Pakistan. Recently, my dad had a stroke and was almost paralyzed. Finally, he improved and one day came to my grandparent's home. For the first time, he showed affection to me and opened up all the mysteries and questions I have been searching for. 

My dad Brigadier (Retd) Akhter Hamid Khan was sent to East Pakistan in 1971 to fight Sk. Muibur Rahman and hid followers who were mostly influenced by Hindus and Indians. Mr. Rahman was a traitor and wanted to separate East Pakistan from Pakistan. My father was a young Captain and was posted in a district called Kustia. Followers of Mr. Rahman and Indian agents were fighting against Pakistan army. The army recruited some local people to help Pakistan army and fight the Indian agents. 

One of the members from a helping force named 'Al-Badar' worked directly with my dad. His name was Ismael Hossain. One day, with his help the local army unit raided a house of a local school teacher because Ismael informed that two of his sons were Mr. Rahman's follower and have gone to India for army training to join Indian agents. Army arrested the teacher and his young daughter who was a Higher Secondary student. Her name was Romela and she was detained for interrogation. 

My dad got the responsibility to interrogate her. She was confined for 2 months when he developed a relationship with her. After two months, my dad was posted in another city Chittagong but before leaving Kustia, he released her. Romela , an unmarried young lady wanted to commit suicide and didn't return home. Ismalel kept her in another location under his custody. After 3 more months, Ismael met my dad in Chittagong and told him that Romela was pregnant and my father was the cause of her pregnancy. That is when he informed that Romela didn't return to her home and is under Ismael's custody. My father just gave him some money. Few days later in October, 1971, my father got inured in a fight and was sent to Peshawar Military hospital. 

Mr. Rahman's forces with the help of Indian agents separated East Pakistan and Ismael left Kustia and escaped to a village near Chittagong. Romela gave birth to her child in June 1972, and unfortunately, I was that child. In 1973, local people started doubting Ismael's identity and he finally escaped to India with my mother. They lived for about 7 months in India near Luckhnow. Ismael worked in a local cloth factory. He then decided to come to Pakistan for a better future. He and my mother managed to come to Pakistan crossing the border. 

We spent another 3 months in Karachi and a local Imam gave us shelter. Since, Ismael was close to my dad during his days in Kustia, he decided to search for my father. My mom also wanted to see him and handover me to him for a better life. The imam contacted some local people and finally could locate my dad's address. At that time, my dad was already married and living with my grand parents. When Ismael and my mom came to his house, there was a scene. My father refused to accept my mom and me. Finally, my grandmother wanted to keep me and not my mother. They gave her some money and asked them to leave. My dad eventually was posted in a different city and left with his wife. 

I had a series of reaction after I knew all these from my dad. He said, Ismael contacted him few more times and eventually went back to Bangladesh in 1976 after Mujibur Rahman was killed. 

For few months, I could not function normally and then started reading about Bangladesh. I knew about NFB after searching in Google. I contacted one senior journalist in Karachi and learnt a lot about 1971 and Mujibur Rahman. I also learnt that most probably my mother was raped in custody by my dad and I am a product of rape. When I thought about the sacrifice and pain of my mother, I felt a strong urge to see her. 

It looks like an impossible task for me. I know nobody in Bangladesh and nothing about my mother's present whereabouts. I don't know if she is even alive or not. In my imagination, I have traveled to Bangladesh many times and could reach my mom; but in reality, I am lost in a huge ocean. I am scared to travel to Bangladesh and do not know how people would take me. 

Bashar bhai sahab, since I read some of your articles, I find a strong similarity between my dad's view and your view. Like you, my dad also thinks Muibur Rahman was a traitor and failed leader. Like you, my dad always expressed happiness about Mr. Rahman's killing. He too thought it was justified because he betrayed and broke Pakistan. Reading your articles, I gained some confidence that you may have a way to find out Ismael because you share similar view and ideology. Also my dad told me that Ismael was from a good family. His father was a diploma engineer and served in Saudi Arabia where he developed some business. I also read that you spent your early life in Saudi Arabia and there is a possibility that you may know Ismael's family, or eve may be related. 

This is my first time writing in an open forum seeking help to see my mother. I could not find a better way. I felt a strong intuition that you and your family may belong to the same group as my dad and Ismael. Would you or any one of your friends please help this helpless lost person to find out my mother? I would remain ever grateful to you. 

*Kind regards,
Akhter Javed Khan,
Karachi, Pakistan.
E mail : khanakhter01@yahoo.com[/I][/B][url]http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2007-08-23&hidType=OPT&hidRecord=0000000000000000169302[/url]*


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Too powerful an article.

The sad results of self inflicted tyranny and resultant agony of a nation.

Nonetheless, my salute to the grandparents for their noble deed of accepting the child!

If someone can help, then they should. The unfortunate circumstance of his birth is not his fault. It is the fault of history.

My heart bleeds for him and many such others in a similar plight and even more unfortunate!


----------



## joey

roadrunner said:


> Wait wait wait. You say Time is speaking of "absolute" data, and that you cannot conclude discrimination on "macro-economic" data. Can you explain what you mean by this? Time is speaking of data from urban centres and rural ones isn't it? It doesn't seem to give a source, but you've concluded the data must be irrelevant. Can you explain why you have come to this conclusion?



Time's article is not a economic survey at all by any means but it is trying to span all of the corners of a block and ends up in a khichdi type situation, It is pointing out Their problems and then his problems but is not at all going in depth analysis of the system. It is pointing out his point of view and their point of view but is not producing the actual verdict of courts (metaphorical in sense) in such pertaining matters. It is not a conclusive evidence of what we are Talking into.

The part of Time you quoted is from Census survey (read the article, it says it) which is never the measure of the macro-economy I'm talking of but talks in absolute volumetric sense. Census survey I believe happenes ever 5 years (have to check so a 2003 article..)




> Again, you're assuming the people at TIMEasia don't know how to do a proper survey or have changed figures tosuit their content. Why would the people at TIMEasia select one Muslim from Bihar, and then take a more progressive Hindu from Delhi to compare to. Where is your evidence that TIMEasia have done this, or are you just assuming they've done this?



You did not got my point, I was not talking of Time Asia here at all This is getting like the exact article I posted since in percentage number of Muslims under jail is more than their population it means bias type, Please re-read the article which I posted.

Out of 100 population in Bihar lets say 30 are Muslims and 70 are Hindus.
Out of 100 population in Haryana lets say 10 are Muslims and 90 are Hindus.

You need to realise if the economic condition of those 30 muslims are bad the 10 Muslims whose economic conditions are good will be overshadowed in absolute data representation and would look like bias, but no please do macro econopmic analysis, In the state of Bihar out of that 30 Muslims if suffering you will find equally more number of Hindus suffering, similarly in Haryana more percentage of Hindus will likely to succeed like Muslims, it is just the crux of absoluteness that Bihar has more Muslims than haryana and has nothing to do with the type of issues your referring to.



> Right. Primary school education is free. But Bharat doesn't have enough primary schools for all the children there. This much is pretty well known. So for the unfortunate Muslims who do not have the opportunity to send them to free primary schools, free madrassah education is the only other option. What about secondary education, is that free?



Yes Secondary, Higher Secondary education all free in government schools and if you have quota in my state you get money from government as stripend on monthly basis, your analogy of Not enough primary schools is correct, your analogy of sending kids to madrasa because primary school is not available is not correct. Based on my personal experience and a established fact even if primary school is available one who wants to send their kid to madrasa will send them, even if primary school is unavailable if they wants to go to a primary school they will send them by their will. Peoples from rural areas are too iliterate in the sense to differentiate the difference between the need of education so that they will send their kids to madrasas to get good education for the deemed lack of primary schools..




> Give the link to your survey.



Here it is I have posted before, ET



> Quotas need to be implemented, not just announced for publicity means. 3% out of a population of 13% is not implementing quotas.



Quotas are implemented, again how many percentage of Quotas you want for one single community? Do you realise how many community and their vote banks are ready for the same quotas and demand the same? I have told Quotas havent helped much at all and there is a big big reason why Apex (supreme) court have rejected and put on hold the new quota proposal, they are plain and simple discriminatory which will not yield true benefit for those in true need.



> What absolute data are you talking about? I don't see how you're coming to your conclusions the TIMEasia survey is wrong.



Dude the time Asia article is not doing any survey to begin with, by absolute data I mean since out of 40 Muslims out of 200, 30 are bad economically off than other 10, It must be discrimination type, that is called absolute data which dont and cannot and never represents macro-economic sectors of India which I'm talked about.

The time talks of a completely different issue/tone than what we are discussing here, citing Gujrat as a example is not the right way to represent economic issue for 60 years and so on, Its talking purely off a political perspective, nor Gujrat was a one way affair including its aftermaths (refer to best bakery case), nor that was the only affair. the article speaks totally off a political point of view and not socio-economic point we are discussion, like when it says 'Hindus never gets convicted' et al is a clear proof of bias of the person who is saying (please refer to the above criminal trial/verdict record article I gave you), starts from 1860's deoband movement, to partition dude thats too much to discuss in one article, It makes looks any Hindu politician got free when the victim is a Muslim as a 'communal' matter (without going into the authenticness of the verdicts as it presents arguments from both sides) when there are hundreds such matters happening among hindus, Muslims themselves, Sibu soren case in very recent is one such or acquitance of Midhani in the Coimbatore Blast case is another. So if you want to discuss number of riots, Number of Muslims killed, Hindus killed, Supreme Courts verdicts, politics relating to it, I dont think this is the right thread to do it, because we are not talking of that which the article is speaking off nor I want to put up datas after datas based on such issues. We are discussion Economic issue of Muslims and what effects them, I have given you link to a very recent survey , I have retaliated Muslims may not be the most progressive group in India (some of the reasons I gave you including that of political leadership that they represent which varies as they are heterogenous) but the points you raised of that of state level discrimination to un-improvement of socio economics of them vis-a-vis Hindus being instutionalized is a absolutely wrong way of putting up analysis because you are simply doing volumetric analysis and analysing without knowing many issues and heterogenous extravanga differences of communities from place to place politically and socio-economically, if 5 Muslims are suffering for a policy and poverty so are 5 Hindus suffering paralelly, much like the article which spoke 80% of India lives under $1 per day, when it actually turned out to be 70% or so of the unorganised sector consumes calorific value of around less than $2 per day.


----------



## salman nedian

We have many tragedies like one posted by AKZaman.3 lacs Bihari muslims are living in Bangladesh in very bad condition.this forum must be used to make an effort to increase the cooperation b/w two Muslim Countries so that the victams of those tragedies could get some relief.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

The Biharis made a mistake by backing the wrong side.

The wrong side does not want to set it right.

It serves the wrong side and the right side to let status quo let these _namak harams_ ( they were eating in BD) to realise what is being loyal to the salt!

Do forgive me, but I hate traitors.

Even if a Pakistani sold of his country for India, I would hate him!


----------



## salman nedian

Salim said:


> The Biharis made a mistake by backing the wrong side.
> 
> The wrong side does not want to set it right.
> 
> It serves the wrong side and the right side to let status quo let these _namak harams_ ( they were eating in BD) to realise what is being loyal to the salt!
> 
> Do forgive me, but I hate traitors.
> 
> Even if a Pakistani sold of his country for India, I would hate him!



This is invalid point at that time BD was East Pakistan and Biharis did not faught with Bengalis they faught with those who wanted to break Pakistan and not all the Bengalis wanted that infact Bengalis wanted Provincial autonomy you can see that Bengalis in this forum have a soft corner for Pakistan why? b/c they are the makers of Pakistan along with us (Pakistanis) what had hapened was due to some misunderstandings Mukti Bahini killed many Bengalis b/c they ere loyal to Pakistan so they are "Namak Harams"? no. Pakistan was their Country and also Biharis Country. 


I would suggest you not to use wrong language against them they are the Heroes of Pakistan.


----------



## haviZsultan

Well done! Thats what i'm talking about... a reply!



Salim said:


> Dimension,
> 
> Noticed how many Moslems are in the forefront these days compared to the earlier times?
> 
> 
> Sportsmen and women and filmstars are the best for mass appeal to change the mindset. Who is leading out there? One does not have to be a bull in a china shop!
> 
> Heard of the Haneef's case where he was declared a terrorist by the Australian govt. Observed the Indian reaction there?



Yeah, but the majority of muslims in india do not have those sort of opportunities... Sharukh khan and Sania mirza and Kalam are just figureheads... they are just there to catch attention so that middle-class people see that muslims are doing really well although most of them are not! Change mindset? All a person needs to do is find the next begger and ask him his religion and that mindset will come crashing down! Tell me are their more Shahrukh Khans <toppers> or more Muslim beggers in India? Why live in a world of make-believe... 

Yeah i agree some muslims manage to become very rich and powerful but how are most of the muslims in india being treated? How does the majority look towards muslims in India? Even you muslim dudes discuss the same things within the safety of your homes and amongst other muslims. You guys know that your community is discriminated against and constantly harrassed though for some reason you don't want to admit it!

Why don't you want to admit that this is all true? Are you afraid of something? Are you afraid of loosing the tiger-support?  Oh, maybe you guys are afraid of the indian secret police... I was wondering if they are in your house right now which makes you not want to admit these things... is the secret police going to torture you if you say that its true? 



Salim said:


> India is not the same place as what it was in 1947.
> 
> And, oh yes, I forgot.....
> Rome was not built in one day!
> 
> Read the Sunni Shia divide thread on this forum. Except for Blain, there is a whole lot of realism dawning!
> 
> Let reality dawn and delusions fade in all aspects of life!



 Oh, definately not! After 1947 it was rage against the Pakistani time... 
Are you telling me that the majority doesn't bully muslims anymore and u guys are like buddies now? Then what about the riots that keep happening in your country all the time between hindus and muslims? What about the armies treatment of the only muslim dominated area, Kashmir? What about the constant discrimination muslims suffer? What about the muslim families in India (unlike you) who admit that they are treated badly by the Hindu majority and What about all those muslims so sick and tired of the discrimination that they want a Pakistani passport?

No matter how much you deny it the attitudes have not changed! The hatred of muslims is still there!!! There are many people in your country that would ensure (and are ensuring) that you guys do not get to the top but you are totally blinded by your government and the media.

 You are trying to make Rome? Would you compare the pollution, discrimination, corruption and crime in India to "Rome" the most advanced civilization in history. Jeez, Romans might commit suicide when they hear of this! Oh, you are trying to tell me that India is the Roman Empire and all those not Indian are "barbarians"? First India is no where near to becoming rome even in the distant future and second you are hurting our sentiments by calling us "barbarians" 

 Realism... ! Blain is a Pakistani... Are you trying to tell me Pakistanis do not look "realistic"? Are you trying to tell me that Pakistanis are all clones or are made of something else other than what you are made of!

Yeah, let reality dawn and let people see the truth behind the lies and the deciet and the "dodging"... however, someone would definately have to get out of the sterilized operation theatre for the "delusions to fade"...



Salim said:


> In this very forum when it was PFF, there was a silly debate whether Jinnah was a Shia or a Sunni. All forgot that whatever he may have been, his contribution to Moslems was what was important. The trouble is that one loves to wallow in the irrelevant and loses the sight of the big picture. Little battles to be won, even if the war is lost! What logic! Cut the nose to spite the face! Missing the wood for the trees!
> 
> Here, there are think tanks who blame Bengalis and India for breaking up Pakistan. Will it change history? It won't. And yet look at the US. It runs on merrily treading on all corns conceivable. And yet everyone craves for that Green Card! Even those who think that the US is the Great White Satan. What is the lure? The lure is that it is a very successful country that is rich, powerful and attractive! So, if we are not rich, powerful and attractive, then why blame people who do not wish to hang around.



True, it does'nt matter if he was shia or sunni, what matters is his contribution to Islam and his contribution in ending the suffering and misery of muslims who were constantly terrorized and discriminated against in India... another rare ocassion when you have said something useful!

 Yes! another one! let me write this... "cut the nose to spite the face" and "missing the wood for the trees"... Have you been spending too much time with witches, wizards and sorcerors? Where do you get all this from?

Oh, do they now... well in India there are many people that blame pathetic, fund-starved organizations like lashker-e-taiba <yeah L.E.T was not responsible!, there is even a documentary detailing the truth!> for events that have been organized by local groups and blame Pakistan whenever anything in their country goes wrong! Anyway that means that we are even then! No one blames our Bengali brothers... this is between India and Pakistan not Bengaladesh... and don't start the "noble india crap" because we all know the true purposes for Indias joining the war! 

True, we all have the choice to strive for greatness or be crushed and America has truely attained greatness no matter how foolish they are! The lesson we should learn here is that absolute fools can also attain greatness so if you are foolish you have actually been gifted by God ... and indian muslims (according to salim) never go to america because they are with taliban and are anti-american! 



Salim said:


> Doctor, heal thyself is the only answer. Introspection.
> 
> Before some goes on the Bharat this and Bharat that, I would add that even India has to face destiny as it comes! No crying over spilt milk!



Oh another one!... Okay so if the docter has an accident and breaks his arms and legs he should still be the one healing himself... okay!

Bharat this? Bharat that? Nope, No one is saying Bharat this, Bharat that... no one criticises the jungle here! Never! If anyone picks on Bharat I will kill him with my grandfathers sword!

 Spilt milk? So thats all it was? Thousands died just because someone spilled milk... so thats why India was partitioned, because of "spilt milk"?... I feel so sorry for India because it lost Pakistan over spilled milk... Woah, you guys should ban milk then because whenever someone will spill milk another Pakistan will be created!... 

Face destiny? Woah... Anyone ever heard about "The Chronicles of India?"

Goodbye! Please reply!


----------



## salman nedian

> Oh another one!... Okay so if the docter has an accident and breaks his arms and legs he should still be the one healing himself... okay!
> 
> Bharat this? Bharat that? Nope, No one is saying Bharat this, Bharat that... no one criticises the jungle here! Never! If anyone picks on Bharat I will kill him with my grandfathers sword!
> 
> Spilt milk? So thats all it was? Thousands died just because someone spilled milk... so thats why India was partitioned, because of "spilt milk"?... I feel so sorry for India because it lost Pakistan over spilled milk... Woah, you guys should ban milk then because whenever someone will spill milk another Pakistan will be created!...
> 
> Face destiny? Woah... Anyone ever heard about "The Chronicles of India?"



India Exposed!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

*Dimension,*

What can one answer when the person is beyond logic.

Example: Sharukh Khan, Sania Mirza and Abdul Kalam are figureheads.

You insult them. 

Each one has achieved these starry heights by their own talent. 

If there was discrimination, then Sharukh would not have toppled the unchallengeable Amitabh Bacchan. After all, in films, it is the box office that determines who is the Head Honcho. And the box office is dependent on the fans. And the fans as per your statistics is 80&#37; Hindus!

Sania Mirza is a tennis player, in case you did not know. Her talent in tennis cannot under any circumstances be assisted by unseen Hindu hands playing for her and making her win. It is her own hands that smashes the tennis ball and gives her the world rankings, which no Indian woman has managed to come near about! And the world ranking is not decided by the 80% Hindu population. It is decided by the World Tennis and assured place is that of one's opwn doing and in this case, it is of Sania Mirza'a and no one elses! So, if she is a figure to be acknowledged, it is because of her own talents and nobody else's.

Abdul Kalam is a scientist and not a politician. He has made his mark in both fields on his own. As the President, while the political parties fought shy to give him a second term, the public which includes your 80% Hindu, voted that he is the Best President. Do you know why Kalam is not there for the second term and the people love him? The political parties are afraid of him. He has taken very difficult political decisions without fear or favour and without any partisan attitude. And he was a NDA nominee, which had BJP as its head! He sorted out all political parties and their shenanigans! He was no figurehead. Yes, he was an immense figure of national acclaim and was also a Head of India!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> Oh another one!... Okay so if the docter has an accident and breaks his arms and legs he should still be the one healing himself... okay!
> 
> Bharat this? Bharat that? Nope, No one is saying Bharat this, Bharat that... no one criticises the jungle here! Never! If anyone picks on Bharat I will kill him with my grandfathers sword!
> 
> Spilt milk? So thats all it was? Thousands died just because someone spilled milk... so thats why India was partitioned, because of "spilt milk"?... I feel so sorry for India because it lost Pakistan over spilled milk... Woah, you guys should ban milk then because whenever someone will spill milk another Pakistan will be created!...
> 
> Face destiny? Woah... Anyone ever heard about "The Chronicles of India?"
> 
> Goodbye! Please reply!



Rather juvenile.

Hardly worth debate! 

And surprising that Salman N found it so illuminating!

Does speak volumes!


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> *Dimension,*
> 
> What can one answer when the person is beyond logic.
> 
> Example: Sharukh Khan, Sania Mirza and Abdul Kalam are figureheads.
> 
> You insult them.
> 
> Each one has achieved these starry heights by their own talent.
> 
> If there was discrimination, then Sharukh would not have toppled the unchallengeable Amitabh Bacchan. After all, in films, it is the box office that determines who is the Head Honcho. And the box office is dependent on the fans. And the fans as per your statistics is 80&#37; Hindus!
> 
> Sania Mirza is a tennis player, in case you did not know. Her talent in tennis cannot under any circumstances be assisted by unseen Hindu hands playing for her and making her win. It is her own hands that smashes the tennis ball and gives her the world rankings, which no Indian woman has managed to come near about! And the world ranking is not decided by the 80% Hindu population. It is decided by the World Tennis and assured place is that of one's opwn doing and in this case, it is of Sania Mirza'a and no one elses! So, if she is a figure to be acknowledged, it is because of her own talents and nobody else's.
> 
> Abdul Kalam is a scientist and not a politician. He has made his mark in both fields on his own. As the President, while the political parties fought shy to give him a second term, the public which includes your 80% Hindu, voted that he is the Best President. Do you know why Kalam is not there for the second term and the people love him? The political parties are afraid of him. He has taken very difficult political decisions without fear or favour and without any partisan attitude. And he was a NDA nominee, which had BJP as its head! He sorted out all political parties and their shenanigans! He was no figurehead. Yes, he was an immense figure of national acclaim and was also a Head of India!



Insult them... naah u see i won't insult Sania Mirza...  we all loVe her you see... the rest i can insult all day! 

Well why don't you ask these people how much difficulty they had reaching the point they are now at and if they never suffered bias and descrimination... Sania initially when she started said there was discrimination by her selectors and they were unwilling to select her. Kalam definately suffered bias cauz he was a muslim going into politics! True, they have reached there because they have great talent which the haters cannot deny... but ask them how many times people wanted to put them down and ensure they did not get to the top? The point is there is discrimination in India against muslims, not how some muslim people seem to be in the limelight!

In truth what difference is this making to the ordinary muslims? Are they getting out of their misery just because Shahrukh Khan got to the top and became so famous or Sania Mirza won a tennis match! Look around you and notice the wide-ranging proverty the muslims in India suffer and find out what anyone is doing to help them. 

Look there are many muslims in India even today that do believe there is descrimination against their society! Some people in my family are saying that they made a mistake by not going to Pakistan during the partition they are so sick of the discrimination and hatred here. Well, what about all those who lose family to rioting etc. Even most of my Indian muslim friends say the same thing, that there is discrimination in india and the muslims are a suppressed people in India. Almost all of them believe that Kashmir should be freed but you are the only India-Crazed Muslim Fanatic I have seen.Why do you want to unneccessarily deny everything I say??? Are you afraid to let your tiger freinds down or is the Secret Police still after you?

 I don't understand why you don't want to admit this... this is what most indian muslims think and say when they are with each other. Maybe you go happy-feet when you see Pakistanis... "no evrything is okay, no problem here, nothing!" Do we always have that kind of affect on you? Do you hate us so much that you think we are sub-human or monsters or something?... You did tell me we did not look "realistic" ... Well I know that extreme fear and hatred can lead to illusion so there is no problem admitting your hatred of Pakistanis here...  It is also no problem to admit that you are seeing Pakistanis around you... and you are having hallucinations because you hate them so much and can't do anything to hurt them(If you say it I will understand completely!)... Yeah, i understand its because of the rage and agony you felt when you lost Pakistan... i don't blame you... I blame your country...

So lets say if your house is burning, your family being killed in front of your eyes would you say the same thing? Will you still tell me there is no problem and nothing is wrong? Well all those who have suffered know how it is like... all those who have lost their loved ones because of the hatred don't really think so! And there are still these kind of muslims moving from India to Pakistan because they are constantly being harrased in India! Why don't you ask the Pakistan Nationalists and Sufferers Witness in India and such groups how many indian muslims they helped get Pakistani passports for between 2004-2006? Yeah right! No discrimination none at all! The man-eating tiger is always right no matter whatever else statistics prove! Well since I am here now you are not going to escape the truth!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

I look around India.

I see poverty.

I see riches.

I see bicycles.

I see Mercedez.

I see honesty,

I see downright thievery.

I see love.

I see hate.

But my eyes only sees India in all its hues. 

Just India!

Here in PFF (now PDF [wonder where the actual PDF went?!]), I see only friends and, of course, some very interesting characters who see only just beyond their nose!


----------



## haviZsultan

salman nedian said:


> India Exposed!



Yeah, India Exposed!


----------



## bhangra12345

dimension117 said:


> Well why don't you ask these people how much difficulty they had reaching the point they are now at and if they never suffered bias and descrimination... Sania initially when she started said there was discrimination by her selectors and they were unwilling to select her. *Kalam definately suffered bias cauz he was a muslim going into politics!* True, they have reached there because they have great talent which the haters cannot deny... but ask them how many times people wanted to put them down and ensure they did not get to the top? The point is there is discrimination in India against muslims, not how some muslim people seem to be in the limelight!



Nope, read through the history of his election and you will understand that he was given a political role because he was a muslim (his worth obviously helped that he had just received Bharat Ratna).


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

dimension117 said:


> Yeah, India Exposed!



To come down to childlike rhetoric of Salman Nedizan:


Some biases Disrobed!


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> I look around India.
> 
> I see poverty.
> 
> I see riches.
> 
> I see bicycles.
> 
> I see Mercedez.
> 
> I see honesty,
> 
> I see downright thievery.
> 
> I see love.
> 
> I see hate.
> 
> But my eyes only sees India in all its hues.
> 
> Just India!
> 
> Here in PFF (now PDF [wonder where the actual PDF went?!]), I see only friends and, of course, some very interesting characters who see only just beyond their nose!



This is'nt a proper reply! You give me too little to work with here...

Naaah... that does'nt sound right... i'll set it right for you

I look around India I see:

Widows being burnt alive after their husbands have died.

Children picking food from gutters

Farmers killing themselves because they can't produce enough food for themselves.

Beggers begging in the street.

Corruption.

Discrimination.

Rioting.

Yet my eyes only see my small neighbor Pakistan and its problems!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Ho hum! :yawn:


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> To come down to childlike rhetoric of Salman Nedizan:
> 
> 
> Some biases Disrobed!



Are we playing a game where each of us is trying to present the other as evil or are you having delusions again and writing random stuff?

Salman said India Exposed... What is the word that hit you here? What is the "biased word" here? Is "India" the biased word or "Exposed" the biased word? I dont think exposed is the biased word because exposed means to reveal the truth! That means India is the biased word... Ya, ya! Now i know, you see you are the guests here so you are always right... we tend to agree with you here so I am sorry I mentioned "India" which is a biased word!... from now on i will only mention "the jungle" when reffering to India and I will only mention "India" when I am extremely angry and use it as a swear word... okay? happy?

Man, this whole world is biased because everyone has a different point of view... and our point of view is going to remain the same no matter how much you want to bury us under the ground! The only solution you guys have is to live with us because today each and every Pakistani is ready to die to maintain his freedom! We don't want to wipe India off the map so you guys should'nt have this constant urge to destroy us either. Right now I think of your views as biased just as you might view mine although the way I see it all I have done till now is tell the truth about how minorities are treated in India and the truth about Indias involvement in the 71' war! You are the ones who are biased if you do not believe the truth or want to ignore the issues and say they are "irrelevent" or an "old issue in a new skin" because you know they are true and you cannot deny them...

We have no problems with you and never did but the fact that you come here every single day just to pick a fight with us and "bully us" as a form of entertainment prove that you have some major issue with us like many of your countrymen who spend a lot of their time deciding what to do when they see a Pakistani in their country which under the influence of some powerful drug you managed to say was wrong! It appears you had made a mistake on your part because fanatics should always remain the way they are. Please, continue living in denial for the rest of your life!!!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Yawn!

Yawn!

Your only consolation is wipe all the countries that you don 't like.

Dont waste time. Get cracking!

Which _madrassa_ is sponsoring it that you advocate?


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Yawn!
> 
> Yawn!
> 
> Your only consolation is wipe all the countries that you don 't like.
> 
> Dont waste time. Get cracking!
> 
> Which _madrassa_ is sponsoring it that you advocate?



Oh you want to sleep... is that what all indians do? So you were sleeping when you lost Pakistan... i see! Continue sleeping! When u lose India then you can come back here and moan!

Oh is it? I never said i wanted to.... But yet again you are making up things because you have nothing useful to talk about and no hard facts that you can give to disprove me... Please continue! Your blabbering will not change the truth and the hatred instilled in you!

I thought thats what you wanted? Don't you want to wipe Pakistan and every nation that has ever helped it or supported it off the map? Unfortunately not everyone thinks like "man-eating tigers" here... not everyone is here to destroy the world and spread jungle supremacy here. We are peaceful people... hatred does not bring us here daily. I know you guys are in great agony that you lost Pakistan and I feel very sorry for you as you cannot do anything to get it back and have to live with this burning anguish all your life... 

Madrassa? How did a madrassa pop out from nowhere... So you are going to a madrassa! Joey was right! Muslims in India do go to madrassas! You did tell me you were illiterate and cited it as the reason of your being in India, did'nt you... well i guess a madrassa suits you then! So if I am correct India is a safe-haven for all illiterate people and all people who are filled with hatred and fury? That is the reason you stayed in India? 

Oh, and is the madrassa teaching you how to get inside Pakistan and bomb people there and teaching you how to brutally torture Pakistanis when you see them in your country? I don't really think you need a madrassa to teach you all this... because each time I have come to India fanatics like you have always showed me the hatred that burns you guys within which perhaps has been instilled in you by your forefathers. It embarresses me to have anything to do with India! Maybe you are all like this as every place I have lived in Indians have been the same! All those who were tortured and brutally murdered by you guys will never forgive your crimes and history will remember you as criminals! 

It is a pity that you are here to revoke old memories... May you continue to live your anguished life of anger and rage forever!


----------



## Maddy

dimension117 said:


> Oh you want to sleep... is that what all indians do? So you were sleeping when you lost Pakistan... i see! Continue sleeping! When u lose India then you can come back here and moan!
> !



Its more like you unable to live with the fact that there's no more East Pakistan. Thanx to India and thus ur evident frustration at us.

So, were u sleeping at that time?  




> All those who were tortured and brutally murdered by you guys will never forgive your crimes and history will remember you as criminals!



I think Bangladeshis would share the same sentiments about Pakistan  Amazing isnt it.

Incase you were actually sleeping, 1 lakh of your soldiers surrendered. Man! thats is something unparallleled in history.  thanx for giving us the honor


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Dimesnsion

What hatred do we have?

We have no qualms about Pakistan. We have not lost it in any way. What makes you feel that we yearn for it? And whatever for? Let your fevered imagination not substitute for the Indian view. It remains exclusively your hallucinatory suggestions prompted by your fevered delirium.

Where do you come from and where have you left your brains? What is all this diatribe about?

What exactly am I to understand from your mindless harague?

What are you talking about?

Do take hold of yourself, take deep breaths, have a glass of water and then come back with some stuff that appeals to sanity and sane debate!

I have borne your mindless barbs and suggestive insinuation with a patient shrug for sufferance is the badge of all our tribe!

If you want to discuss, come with sanity.

Or else, sir, engage yourself in your theatrical soliloquy and play to the gallery of likeminded as you, who hallucinate and spew factless accusation as if they are the Gospel Truth!

I have no time for Blind Faith or Gospel Truths. I want facts and scientific analysis to the wild dreams that get or are being bandied.


----------



## haviZsultan

Maddy said:


> Its more like you unable to live with the fact that there's no more East Pakistan. Thanx to India and thus ur evident frustration at us.
> 
> So, were u sleeping at that time?



 Maddy on fire!

Ohhh... i see...We weren't able to live with it? So you know more about us than we do? Did we ever after losing Bangladesh say we were interested in taking it back? Or that it belonged to us? Well India said many times after partition that many parts of Pakistan should belong to India. We accepted Bangladesh! Did India accept Pakistan? No. You did not even accept Bangladesh when it was with Pakistan! Till you had this opportunity to choose one side and strike you wanted to crush East Pakistan (Bangladesh) along with west pakistan!

Unlike you guys not everyone sleeps when they are in a problematic situation or want to avoid some piece of truth that might make them look stupid.  



Maddy said:


> I think Bangladeshis would share the same sentiments about Pakistan  Amazing isnt it.
> 
> Incase you were actually sleeping, 1 lakh of your soldiers surrendered. Man! thats is something unparallleled in history.  thanx for giving us the honor



Sadly for you guys they don't! Most Bangladeshis were hurt when independence was announced although they were content that the death and destruction had ended! We still view the Bangladeshis as our brothers and we love them... i believe the Bangladeshis feel the same way! However Bangladeshis clearly understand Indias true motives for helping the Bahinis were to take revenge against Pakistan (both east and west) and to gain wealth and they knew if Awami League had come to power and PPP was rebbelling India would support PPP against the Awami League. Bangladeshis know well of all the land india took from them and the hatred and lust for land and wealth that brought them there!

As i said we don't sleep in times of trouble! U struck when Pakistan was involved in a civil war fighting a two on one battle alongside the bahinis when we were significantly weakened by the civil war and infighting in east pakisistan... you've always been opportunists so its nothing new for you anyway! We were outnumbered 4 to 1... It does not prove that you are stronger than us! Infact it proved how pathetic you were engaging us directly only when everything was against us!

It was 90000 not laakh, don't bend figures for your personal satisfaction...

honor?...  Take your teddy-bear and go to sleep and please ask your mother to jump a few times on the bed to please you so that you can tuck yourself and your teddy-bear to sleep! This thread is for adults only!


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Dimesnsion
> 
> What hatred do we have?
> 
> We have no qualms about Pakistan. We have not lost it in any way. What makes you feel that we yearn for it? And whatever for? Let your fevered imagination not substitute for the Indian view. It remains exclusively your hallucinatory suggestions prompted by your fevered delirium.
> 
> Where do you come from and where have you left your brains? What is all this diatribe about?
> 
> What exactly am I to understand from your mindless harague?
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
> Do take hold of yourself, take deep breaths, have a glass of water and then come back with some stuff that appeals to sanity and sane debate!
> 
> I have borne your mindless barbs and suggestive insinuation with a patient shrug for sufferance is the badge of all our tribe!
> 
> If you want to discuss, come with sanity.
> 
> Or else, sir, engage yourself in your theatrical soliloquy and play to the gallery of likeminded as you, who hallucinate and spew factless accusation as if they are the Gospel Truth!
> 
> I have no time for Blind Faith or Gospel Truths. I want facts and scientific analysis to the wild dreams that get or are being bandied.



 Woah... this looks like some sort of gothic poem! Have you ever heard of Dragonforce, Trivium or Cradle Of flith. Well i would have taken you as lyricist or singer in one of those bands! I think if i post this on my website people will think of it as the lyrics of some thrash metal song! Salim should be famous for his work! Anyway, I am almost 100% sure that you were in the sterilized operation theatre when you typed this and were having delusions again. 

Why does it seem that you are trying to hide your identity or are escaping something. I think that ever since you came to this site the Indian Secret Police has been after you... 

No hatred? You said in your "song" here that you see hatred in your country:



> I look around India:
> I see *poverty.*
> I see riches.
> I see bicycles.
> I see Mercedez.
> I see honesty,
> I see *downright thievery.*
> I see love.
> I see *hate.*
> But my eyes only sees India in all its hues.



You don't? Well then why was I told by your own countrymen never to mention i was Pakistani or expect to die when I was in India? Well over 1947 to 2001 your government had been claiming many parts of Pakistan! Are you sure you don't "yearn" for Pakistan and aren't raging to get the land back. Well my Indian cousin described India as "an angry bull thats been slapped in the face?"  And i would add this: what does the bull say? It says "Hrrrr... give back Pakistan or die!"

Fevered delirium? Again... tell the docters in the sanitized operation theatre to control your hallucinations because too many hallucinations can even lead to a heart attack! Do you need docters that can give you more time? We will send some from Sudan, don't worry! Sudani docters are always free because there are only 10,000 people per docter there. Salim please don't have a heart attack... u see Indians believe in reincarnation so i am really afraid about what will happen to me after the heart attack. And then you seem to be a warlock of some kind as you seem to have these great powers of writing gothic trash metal so i am really afraid of you. I know its an Indian thing to blame others for their misfortunes but you don't blame me for anything do you?

Come from? I come from both places but my allegiance lies only with Pakistan. Well a person definately needs to lose his head when he is talking to you... I mean the brain is extremely... volatile and can easily catch contagious diseases... for example if you have a brain tumor then there is a 99% chance that the one who argues with you will catch it too and you already are in an operation theatre. So this means there is definately something wrong with you which is being diagnosed so people need to be careful about how hey approach you! And then they also need to be careful about not hurting your feelings and saying that you have a contageous disease and laughing... I know what its like to feel the way you do so don't worry!
Diatribe?  Noooo, your post is'nt a diatribe!!! its a very great piece of thrash metal!!!!! Don't underestimate yourself!

Okay you win, your purpose is complete as i am finally in need of a dictionary! Harangue or harague... atleast type properly... i was almost having as much fun as you do when you criticize Pakistan... but you need to write properly... I know that you are illiterate but please give it a try. Well as i said in the post before last our views don't match so i believe you are the one delivering the "harangue" or the "diatribe" 

Talking about? Well obviously because you don't want to answer anything and admit it as true you are actng like you have no idea what it is I am talking about! Continue your "dodging" game... have you ever played swuadiron 77? You have to avoid difficult questions using your "wordplay, wittiness and skill"... thats what its like to try and get you to answer something here.

Yeah, that might be the first step to counter the delusions... good, follow the docters instructions and the "delusions will fade" in no time! but don't come back on after that... first get out of the sterilized operation theatre... yup, then you can come with some stuff that "appeals to sanity", tiger-boy!

You talk like I am the "bad guy" here or as if some sort of evil drives me! Do you think this is some bollywood movie and i am the villain here. Well Pakistanis always have to be villains in Bollywood movies so... i don't blame you if you will kill me in the end ... i will blame bollywood!... Ohhhh... sufference? What do you know about sufference what have you ever lost to talk about it? Pathetic loser! Talk to the women in Kashmir who were raped and they will tell you about their sufference! Talk to those muslims in India who lost their loved ones to simple hatred and they will tell you about sufference... come out of the darkness of your hole and see the light dude! See the truth rather than living in the darkness you've surrounded yourself in... things are not as they seem at first glance!

Well, it surprises me that someone who is having these dangerous hallucinations that cause extreme rage and these constant delusions is telling me this. I think you should really get out of the sterilized operation theatre as soon as possible because it might be a brain implant to change your views! Oh now i understand everything

Okay chanda... why are you crying? "HRrrrr, Salim is very angry now! He wants to kill poor dimension today" Factless????? Have I ever made an accusation without backing it up properly? Evrything i said has something that backs it up! 

1. About treatment of minorities I pointed to demographics and population and what my own Indian family thinks about it, how my other Indian muslim freinds see India and how Kashmir is treated!

2. About Indias involvement in Bangladesh I backed up my claims with the fact that u guys took land from them and even Bengladeshis said that India was involved because of its intention to break up Pakistan... 

3. About hatred of Pakistan in India I talked about how i felt when I was in India, what my cousins there told me!

Are'nt these enough facts backing up my "accusations". I can give hundreds of smaller examples. So i want all those who read this to see the truth and notice how this dude and many others like him want to avoid a proper debate and give only excuses and excuses to avoid them! The way I see it there is nothing but the truth (and some humour) in what I have said so far. Everything I have said is based on what I have seen, felt and heard!

Learn to answer questions and not to find ways to avoid them, dude because since the day i came here I have written over 6000 words about these topics! And everyone knows who has the hallucinations here! Don't just copy what i said from other posts:



> It is also no problem to admit that you are seeing Pakistanis around you... and you are having hallucinations because you hate them so much and can't do anything to hurt them


 

Goodbye.. try to reply for once


----------



## Maddy

dimension117 said:


> Maddy on fire!
> It was 90000 not laakh, don't bend figures for your personal satisfaction...
> 
> honor?...  Take your teddy-bear and go to sleep and please ask your mother to jump a few times on the bed to please you so that you can tuck yourself and your teddy-bear to sleep! This thread is for adults only!



Frustration, eh! Since can't you follow a sane conversation as Salim has been trying to deliberate with you. Let's try it your way. All that you said is ABSOlUTELY is there anything you can do about it!! Other than bitching on onliine forums all the while deluding ur self of enlightenning the world with anti-india propaganda.

Don't even bother replying, coz i am no longer going to entertain your false phylosophies. BTW, my signature is just for people like you.

Yada yada yada ... now go back to your la la land.


----------



## haviZsultan

Maddy said:


> Frustration, eh! Since can't you follow a sane conversation as Salim has been trying to deliberate with you. Let's try it your way. All that you said is ABSOlUTELY is there anything you can do about it!! Other than bitching on onliine forums all the while deluding ur self of enlightenning the world with anti-india propaganda.
> 
> Don't even bother replying, coz i am no longer going to entertain your false phylosophies. BTW, my signature is just for people like you.
> 
> Yada yada yada ... now go back to your la la land.



Naaah i won't give you guys the pleasure by being frustated! Sane conversation? Well it seems you are insane cauz you can't discuss and only want to criticize! We don't want to nor do we have to do anything about it! 

 Anti-India propaganda????? As I said you people just cannot hear the truth so you have to find ways to keep denying it or ignoring it through one means or another. Well what are you here for? Your love for Pakistan brings you here? 

Say that you can no longer deny the truth! Each and every one of my "philosophy" has been properly backed up by evidence and truth. Please find a better excuse!  Your signature should first be read and applied by yourself and then be announced that it is for others  

Please, go back to your mothers lap and continue sucking her thumb! And its getting late, is'nt it the time for the children to go to bed?


----------



## salman nedian

> (by Maddy) Incase you were actually sleeping, 1 lakh of your soldiers surrendered. Man! thats is something unparallleled in history. thanx for giving us the honor



Salim,
This is the catalyst for hate. I am not biased but you can see that what sort of mentality is this.

I cant say any thing more except that if someone cuts your arm you will hate him.


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## salman nedian

> (By Salim)Example: Sharukh Khan, Sania Mirza and Abdul Kalam are figureheads.
> 
> You insult them.



Now this is emotional blackmailing


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

What a crashing bore!

What faultless blubbering!

Very tiresome.

Responding to the niggling of Dimension because the thoughts expounded are merely a outpouring of disjointed meandering of wayward and pointless hate.

Archaic thoughts.

Entombed in the era of 1947!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

salman nedian said:


> Now this is emotional blackmailing



Fine.

All Moslems in India who are doing well are doing it because they have no talents and are plumb d-umb.

Happy?

It was Dimension who felt that these people are mere figureheads! Meaning: they are there because of heavens know how but surely not talent! That is what D implied.

So, is that emotional blackmail to state that they do have talent and because of unbridled hate for anything Indian, including Indian Moslems, Dimesnsion condemns them as brainless wonders?

What logic!

What rationale.

And Dimension begs an answer to such tripe and bilgewater!


----------



## salman nedian

Salim said:


> Fine.
> 
> All Moslems in India who are doing well are doing it because they have no talents and are plumb d-umb.
> 
> Happy?
> 
> It was Dimension who felt that these people are mere figureheads! Meaning: they are there because of heavens know how but surely not talent! That is what D implied.
> 
> So, is that emotional blackmail to state that they do have talent and because of unbridled hate for anything Indian, including Indian Moslems, Dimesnsion condemns them as brainless wonders?
> 
> What logic!
> 
> What rationale.
> 
> And Dimension begs an answer to such tripe and bilgewater!



No! You interpreted wrongly what exactly dimension wants to say is that Indian Muslims are so Talented but they have to sing Vande Mataram which is against their religion, they have to live like a hindu (like President Abdul Kalam in an interview said that he is a half Brahman) ,Shahrukh Khan and other Muslim stars propagate in their films that Muslims should marry Hindus which is prohibited in Islam. What type of free muslims they are if they have to propagate hindu mentality? Once I asked u about the Incident of Samjhoota Express .how it is possible that a train full of Pakistani Muslims and their Indian relatives was burnt by Muslims? Does it makes sence?


----------



## intruder

salman nedian said:


> No! You interpreted wrongly what exactly dimension wants to say is that Indian Muslims are so Talented but they have to sing Vande Mataram which is against their religion, they have to live like a hindu (like President Abdul Kalam in an interview said that he is a half Brahman) ,Shahrukh Khan and other Muslim stars propagate in their films that Muslims should marry Hindus which is prohibited in Islam.



Salman for you and others religion comes first and nation comes after that ... here in India nation comes first and religion later .... Vande Mataram is song praising mother nation without religious flavours ..... born and bought up in lucknow I speak urdu and eat 'muslim' food and so I am proudly half 'Musium' and live in 'Muslim' area ... so being half 'Bhramin' or 'Muslim' is related to intigration and I bet you cannot understand the concept.... Shahrukh Khan is not propagating he is married to a hindu girl .... remember India is not a religious state and people have freedom to choose there way ... there are lots of areas for improvement ... but it is there ....



> What type of free muslims they are if they have to propagate hindu mentality? Once I asked u about the Incident of Samjhoota Express .how it is possible that a train full of Pakistani Muslims and their Indian relatives was burnt by Muslims? Does it makes sence?



A frog in a pond will have no clue about world outside ... and same is case when you say 'free muslims' ... bomb does not kill based on religion it is just hate which drives there people and these people cannot see further ....


----------



## Bull

salman nedian said:


> No! You interpreted wrongly what exactly dimension wants to say is that Indian Muslims are so Talented but they have to sing Vande Mataram which is against their religion, they have to live like a hindu (like President Abdul Kalam in an interview said that he is a half Brahman) ,Shahrukh Khan and other Muslim stars propagate in their films that Muslims should marry Hindus which is prohibited in Islam. What type of free muslims they are if they have to propagate hindu mentality? Once I asked u about the Incident of Samjhoota Express .how it is possible that a train full of Pakistani Muslims and their Indian relatives was burnt by Muslims? Does it makes sence?



To just make it clear to you we dont want the Pakistani type muslims here, we want the Indian onesm moderate ones who can mix and contribute.


----------



## intruder

salman nedian said:


> how it is possible that a train full of Pakistani Muslims and their Indian relatives was burnt by Muslims? Does it makes sence?



Just to add to my previous comments :

In Lal masjid people killed where Muslims and killers where Muslims so please do not post these comments I would suggest you think twice before posting ...


----------



## salman nedian

intruder said:


> Just to add to my previous comments :
> 
> In Lal masjid people killed where Muslims and killers where Muslims so please do not post these comments I would suggest you think twice before posting ...



Lal Masjid was not the kind of situation of "Samjhoota Express" mate.I ould suggest you not to mix things here.


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## salman nedian

Bull said:


> To just make it clear to you we dont want the Pakistani type muslims here, we want the Indian onesm moderate ones who can mix and contribute.



Oh!so you means Indian type and Pakistani type muslims are different?


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## intruder

salman nedian how it is possible that a train full of Pakistani Muslims and their Indian relatives was burnt by Muslims? Does it makes sence? [/QUOTE said:


> This is in response to you reply where you said Muslims cannot kill muslims .....


----------



## intruder

salman nedian said:


> Oh!so you means Indian type and Pakistani type muslims are different?



Yes !! here we put nation first and religion after that and not religion first nation after ....


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## salman nedian

Islam is same for both Indian and Pakistani Muslims there is no point who puts what first.When Abdul Kalam said that he is a half Brahman he said it b/c of majority of India.that means he was under pressure and thats my point.

A Muslim is a whole Muslim not half


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## Tiki Tam Tam

This thread is on the Creation of Bangaldesh.

And what are the reasons for veering to India? The same old psyche! Unfortunate!

India and Pakistan has moved on and there is a great effort of the govts to bridge this gap but with people like you all who sleep, dream and fear, the govts I presume are wasting their time.

You people will not let old phobias die!

Only the Creator can save people your mentality!

Lal Majzjid is fine, but anything other than what happens in Pakistan is to be declared as anti Pakistan and anti Islam! And massacres in Pakistan, the sectarian violence is all very much within the realm of Islam! Is that what you are suggesting? If so, it is ridiculous a suggestion! Violence, mayhem and murder anywhere for any cause is immoral and inhuman! Using Islam selectively to justify the same is doing injustice to Islam and the damned terrorists are doing great injustice not only to Islam, but to many Moslems who are law abiding, peaceful and perfect citizens of the countries they reside in. These terrorists are bringing a bad name to Islam and making life hell for law abiding and good Moslems! And thos who support these terrorists, directly, indirectly, by subtle suggestions are downright anti socials!

Get real.

Bridge the gap and not make it a yawning chasm!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

salman nedian said:


> Islam is same for both Indian and Pakistani Muslims there is no point who puts what first.When Abdul Kalam said that he is a half Brahman he said it b/c of majority of India.that means he was under pressure and thats my point.
> 
> A Muslim is a whole Muslim not half



There is no half Indian either! There are only full Indians. Secularism first and then your religion. No religion uber alles!

Humanity first and then whatever!

To be a human being without animal instincts or hate is what is religion all about!

Since you are such champions of Islam, which Islam is right? Shia or Sunni, Sufi or Whahhabi? and which is correct - Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki or Shafei?

Islam is same for all Moslem, but the interpretation is different for all Moslems and Islam is a equation between the Man and Allah and no body in between. Stop being _Khalifas _for a change! You ahe no right to interpret Islam for anyone else! Follow what you feel is right and stop being a Mullah, who also has no right to dictate! If you dictate Islam to others, then you are also behaving like a Mullah - a self appointed facilitator to Allah and with no by your leave from Allah!



> Muslims should marry Hindus which is prohibited in Islam



Why, are others some sort of pariah?

*Jinnah married a Parsi*!

*Aly Khan married what?* Prince Ali Solomone Khan (June 13, 1911 &#8211; May 12, 1960), known as Aly Khan, was a *vice president of the United Nations General Assembly representing Pakistan*, for which he served as U.N. ambassador (1958-1960). Best known, however, a racehorse owner and jockey, he was a son of Aga Khan III, the head of the Ismaili Muslims, and the father of Aga Khan IV. He married as his first wife the Hon. Joan Guinness (n&#233;e Yarde-Buller, 1908-1997). She was the former wife of Group Capt. Loel Guinness, a Member of Parliament, and a daughter of the 3rd Baron Churston. So?

*Imran Khan married a Jew*!

So, they are not good Moslems?


----------



## intruder

Salim, there is no point arguing with someone who does not have a clue what is taking about...


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Actually, I was avoiding this type of nonsensical inter exchange, but I found that more I wanted to veer them away, the more they got vociferous about their rants.

The thread is on Bangladesh and I found that we are discussing everything about India and not Bangladesh!

Very odd!

And each one thinking he is some sort of a _Khalifa_ and know all on Islam!

If Islam was the same for all, then there would be one sect and one school of thought. It is not so and for good reasons, because man is not sheep!

Islam (as is other religions) is for the thinking man and not sheep and mentally moribund!

Check the Shia - Sunni thread. Nice thoughts there. Yet here, they talk through the other side of their cheek!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Counting sheep makes me sleepy!


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## Tiki Tam Tam

I wonder if our good friends finds this very Islamic!

*Gory video shows boy beheading hostage soldier -DAWN - Top Stories; August 28, 2007
*

Knowing them I am sure they will say it was the work of Indian Moslems!

And claim that DAWN is a newspaper sponsored by the Indian Baniyah and Jew conspiracy as someone mentioned something similar in a thread that became inconvenient to them!

Why can't we have a sane discussion without fevered and rabid imagination full of hate entombed by hsitorical animosity?


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## salman nedian

> Jinnah married a Parsi!





> Imran Khan married a Jew!




They both converted their wives before marrying.

There is a difference in ideologies I dont want to talk on it any more be happy in your Secularism and we are happy in our Islam. There are casts in Hinduism but every one criticizes only shia-sunni divide.

Any ways come to the topic Creation of Bangladesh.


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## salman nedian

> Knowing them I am sure they will say it was the work of Indian Moslems!



This is enough.have you ever seen any one of us blaming Indian Muslims?


----------



## su-47

dimension117 said:


> :You don't? Well then why was I told by your own countrymen never to mention i was Pakistani or expect to die when I was in India? Well over 1947 to 2001 your government had been claiming many parts of Pakistan! Are you sure you don't "yearn" for Pakistan and aren't raging to get the land back. Well my Indian cousin described India as "an angry bull thats been slapped in the face?"  And i would add this: what does the bull say? It says "Hrrrr... give back Pakistan or die!"
> 
> :



If we wanted it that badly, we could have had it in 1971, when our army occupied whole of east pakistan and the west pakistan army was on the retreat. we could have occupied the country and forced the people to subjugate to indian rule or maybe even wipe out the dissidents, but instead we chose not to. We even gave back east pakistan to the Bangladeshis, even though we could have put them under our rule. So please dont go on about india wanting pakistan.


----------



## salman nedian

> If we wanted it that badly, we could have had it in 1971, when our army occupied whole of east pakistan and the west pakistan army was on the retreat. we could have occupied the country and forced the people to subjugate to indian rule or maybe even wipe out the dissidents, but instead we chose not to. We even gave back east pakistan to the Bangladeshis, even though we could have put them under our rule. So please dont go on about india wanting pakistan.



It was due to International pressure and also you knew that ppl of East Pakistan faught for liberation not to join India.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

International pressure!

Give us another one!

International pressure stopped all the wars so far and i fthere was any international worries, then they would not have allowed Indian to go into East Pakistan!

US steamed towards India (but nowhere close enough) the Seventh Fleet! If they were serious then they would have jumped in much earlier. Even China stood by!

That much for international pressure!

It is also a indelible proof of the carnage done by the PA in East Pakistan wherein none wanted to touch it with a barge pole lest the immorality got stuck to them too!

In the maze of immorality that is politics, the Nations have to maintain an outward morality!


----------



## salman nedian

Ok now I understand that India didnt want to regain Pakistan thats why they invaded East Pakistan


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Who wants to inherit poverty?

India is not Germany.

You go your way and we go ours and we wish you well!

Honestly, only fools want to reverse the clock!

And idiots who fear think that others want o reverse the clock!

Right now, Pakistan at the crossroad.

Musharraf, Benazir and Sharif.

Let's this out and then talk beyond!

Bangladeshis liberated themselves. India only helped.

The credit to want to be free and organise the same is that of the Bangladeshis themselves!

Give credit to them also.

The crave of mankind to be free is beyond religion and boundaries. What is happening in Pakistan? Musharraf has done well. Pakistan is booming and recognised as a country on the move. But there must be something/ control that the Pakistanis want to get rid of! They also crave for something beyond. Or else why should they want to be back to the old days when they welcome the shock coup by Musharraf?

If all was well, then who wants the Army?


----------



## salman nedian

Salim said:


> Who wants to inherit poverty?
> 
> India is not Germany.
> 
> You go your way and we go ours and we wish you well!
> 
> Honestly, only fools want to reverse the clock!
> 
> And idiots who fear think that others want o reverse the clock!
> 
> Right now, Pakistan at the crossroad.
> 
> Musharraf, Benazir and Sharif.
> 
> Let's this out and then talk beyond!
> 
> Bangladeshis liberated themselves. India only helped.
> 
> The credit to want to be free and organise the same is that of the Bangladeshis themselves!
> 
> Give credit to them also.
> 
> The crave of mankind to be free is beyond religion and boundaries. What is happening in Pakistan? Musharraf has done well. Pakistan is booming and recognised as a country on the move. But there must be something/ control that the Pakistanis want to get rid of! They also crave for something beyond. Or else why should they want to be back to the old days when they welcome the shock coup by Musharraf?
> 
> If all was well, then who wants the Army?



Salim,
With this attitude of India we cant make our region a better place to live try to understand my point with cold head. India attacked East Pakistan by saying that illegal immigrants are coming from East Pakistan due to massacre of Bengalis by Pakistan Army. So this rules also applies to us also we can also say that Kashmiris from IOK are coming to Azad Kashmir so we should also attack India?

I have always said in this thread that Pakistan and Bangladesh are tied by a bond (Forget about religion but we gained Independence jointly) so they must develop a strong and special relationship with each other for the betterment of our people


----------



## Shivakumar

salman nedian said:


> So this rules also applies to us also we can also say that Kashmiris from IOK are coming to Azad Kashmir so we should also attack India?



 How many refugees are there now? Do people like to go to hell? 

The only people who goes there are some fanatics to become a terrorist.


----------



## salman nedian

Shivakumar said:


> How many refugees are there now? Do people like to go to hell?
> 
> The only people who goes there are some fanatics to become a terrorist.



Come on be realistic there are hundreds of thousand Kashmiris living in Azad Kashmir who migrated from IOK I personally know many of them they migrated due to what Indian army is doing there.

And mind your language when u are talking about my Country. Pakistan is a heaven for us.


----------



## haviZsultan

Shivakumar said:


> How many refugees are there now? Do people like to go to hell?
> 
> The only people who goes there are some fanatics to become a terrorist.



What do you mean how many refugees are there? There are many people in Kashmir that have families on both sides of the border. Especially the people in Azad Kashmir. They do travel despite the difficult conditions and want to travel to the IOK. 

Excuse me? The only people who go there are not "fanatics to become terrorists". I know so many people who migrated from India and still have many family members still stuck in India. People in Azad Kasmir want to and often do go to the Indian Occupied Kashmir and vice versa because of family links just as i visit India because of family links. Now would you call me a fanatic too just because i am a Pakistani and came to India? 

Well, you guys do have a habit of blaming Pakistan for evrything that goes wrong in India don't you... you can definately say anything!


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

salman nedian said:


> Salim,
> With this attitude of India we cant make our region a better place to live try to understand my point with cold head. India attacked East Pakistan by saying that illegal immigrants are coming from East Pakistan due to massacre of Bengalis by Pakistan Army. So this rules also applies to us also we can also say that Kashmiris from IOK are coming to Azad Kashmir so we should also attack India?
> 
> I have always said in this thread that Pakistan and Bangladesh are tied by a bond (Forget about religion but we gained Independence jointly) so they must develop a strong and special relationship with each other for the betterment of our people



Please attack India as many times you wish, if that is what pleases you.

You have tried four times!

Ah, so the Kashmiris are flooding Pak Occupied Kashmir? Give us another one of your Grimms stories!

Bond with Bangladeshis! Visit Bangladesh and give your claptrap that you have given here and see the reaction. AS it is we can see the reaction from the Bangladeshis on this forum.

Bangladeshis are a proud people as all Bengalis. We may be emotional, but we are none to take crap from people!

Soft-soaping is soon discovered and despised!

If you all were serious, then Bangladesh would not have happened. The Punjabis thought they own Pakistan and all others are slaves! The Punjabis are still at it and you can see the reaction everywhere apart from Punjabi itself!


----------



## haviZsultan

Hey, don't bully the poor guy! Everyone who has a different point of view... u screw around with him. Talk to me! You were lucky my internet was down. Yeah...



Salim said:


> Please attack India as many times you wish, if that is what pleases you.
> 
> You have tried four times!



As history will prove countless times it has been India that has started off the dispute or tried to attack us. In 1972 it was your support for the bahinis and their bases in India and in 1998 it was the heavy nuclear arms production you guys started and threatened us with. We only attack when we are threatened. You people attack for no apparant reason.



Salim said:


> Ah, so the Kashmiris are flooding Pak Occupied Kashmir? Give us another one of your Grimms stories!



You do not know about the flood of Kashmiris that come to Pakistan because there are no refugee camps they go to but instead settle in the cities and towns. I myself know so many people who have shifted from Indian occupied Kashmir and they still tell me how they hated it there and about the armies treatment. I repeat there are many Kashmiris that moved from I.O.K living in Pakistan with Pakistani passports and the number is still increasing. Many Kashmiris shifted (and still shift) and took on a Pakistani passport because they did not want to live in eternal torture in your "great" country which is "secular"... I still don't understand how you are secular when minorities are treated so badly.

I think i will just ask the Pakistan Nationalists or the Kashmiri Insaaf to give some figures on Kashmir about migration and you can stare at them all you want. 



Salim said:


> Bond with Bangladeshis! Visit Bangladesh and give your claptrap that you have given here and see the reaction. AS it is we can see the reaction from the Bangladeshis on this forum.
> 
> Bangladeshis are a proud people as all Bengalis. We may be emotional, but we are none to take crap from people!
> 
> Soft-soaping is soon discovered and despised!



Yes, bond with Bangladeshis! Infact I have!... I have given the "claptrap" there. I think I really am a walking terror for you hate spreading fanatics here . 

Most Bengalis see us as long-lost brothers We still love those brothers (and not to forget sisters!) just like they love us. Their reaction to us was exactly the opposite of what I saw and felt in India where I feel I am with "man-eating tigers". Infact some Bengalis even offered to take me home and I truly have never felt myself at ease anywhere else (exept in Pakistan). I mean when a person who has very little money wants to take you home and take care of you it really makes you wonder. I wanted to give the guy money but he did'nt even accept that! If Bengalis hated us so much would such a reaction be possible? You probably wont understand all this because you are used to being hostile to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis as is the custom in India and so you think that everyone is like you.

My friends there told me that most of the Bengalis did NOT want Bangladesh to break up from Pakistan and wanted to remain with Pakistan. They said it was India that wanted to pull us apart all along and it was none of their business to get involved and admitted (unlike you) that India wanted land, resources, wealth and had always wanted to break Pakistan since it gained inependence. They said however that overwhelming force was used and we should have let Mujib rule which would have been better. The truth is that we love our Bangladeshi brothers and the bond is infact ever-stronger than what is used to be before the war. Lets put the question to Bangladeshis now and they can present you with the truth.



Salim said:


> If you all were serious, then Bangladesh would not have happened. The Punjabis thought they own Pakistan and all others are slaves! The Punjabis are still at it and you can see the reaction everywhere apart from Punjabi itself!



 Its the hyperventilation and "Rage against the Pakistani" that strikes again, is'nt it? Was'nt Bangladesh a good enough sucess story for you guys? So now you want to take the Punjab by presenting them as evil as you presented West Pakistan when you supported the Bahinis? To tell you the truth you are talking absolute rubbish here. Reaction to what??? I think I'll try and do what you are doing... "Uttar Pradesh treats all Indians as slaves. They keep all the wealth to themselves while giving nothing to the other states. This calls for a rebellion against Uttar Pradesh."

I am glad that you are able to fight the effects of the drug that make you think like a human rather than a man-eating tiger from the "jungle" which is your true nature. Please continue!


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Salim said:


> There is no half Indian either! There are only full Indians. Secularism first and then your religion. No religion uber alles!
> 
> Humanity first and then whatever!
> 
> To be a human being without animal instincts or hate is what is religion all about!
> 
> Since you are such champions of Islam, which Islam is right? Shia or Sunni, Sufi or Whahhabi? and which is correct - Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki or Shafei?
> 
> Islam is same for all Moslem, but the interpretation is different for all Moslems and Islam is a equation between the Man and Allah and no body in between. Stop being _Khalifas _for a change! You ahe no right to interpret Islam for anyone else! Follow what you feel is right and stop being a Mullah, who also has no right to dictate! If you dictate Islam to others, then you are also behaving like a Mullah - a self appointed facilitator to Allah and with no by your leave from Allah!
> 
> 
> 
> Why, are others some sort of pariah?
> 
> *Jinnah married a Parsi*!
> 
> *Aly Khan married what?* Prince Ali Solomone Khan (June 13, 1911 &#8211; May 12, 1960), known as Aly Khan, was a *vice president of the United Nations General Assembly representing Pakistan*, for which he served as U.N. ambassador (1958-1960). Best known, however, a racehorse owner and jockey, he was a son of Aga Khan III, the head of the Ismaili Muslims, and the father of Aga Khan IV. He married as his first wife the Hon. Joan Guinness (n&#233;e Yarde-Buller, 1908-1997). She was the former wife of Group Capt. Loel Guinness, a Member of Parliament, and a daughter of the 3rd Baron Churston. So?
> 
> *Imran Khan married a Jew*!
> 
> So, they are not good Moslems?



Totally agreed marriages is a personal thing & anyone can marry anyone love is a gift from ALLAH (RAB) & we should cherish it now as for the sects if you ask me then probably i ll go for Sufism but with out its superstitious things you understand bro however also if you take out the talibaanism from wahabism then its also quiet easy like in Saudi i used to see that just pray farz and your done no topi no forceful sunnah prayer its up to the person's choice & comfort which unlike in our places indo/pak/bd making a mountain out of a mole for eg topi kyun nahin pehna sunnat kyun nahin para as for hanafism some of the marriage laws is a bit hard to swallow specially rules regarding personal intimacy anyhow amazing as it sounds i also find shiasm though i am a Sunni quiet easy anyhow of topic i apologize we can start one thread on this one i am all for it.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

dimension117 said:


> Hey, don't bully the poor guy! Everyone who has a different point of view... u screw around with him. Talk to me! You were lucky my internet was down. Yeah...
> 
> 
> 
> As history will prove countless times it has been India that has started off the dispute or tried to attack us. In 1972 it was your support for the bahinis and their bases in India and in 1998 it was the heavy nuclear arms production you guys started and threatened us with. We only attack when we are threatened. You people attack for no apparant reason.
> 
> 
> 
> You do not know about the flood of Kashmiris that come to Pakistan because there are no refugee camps they go to but instead settle in the cities and towns. I myself know so many people who have shifted from Indian occupied Kashmir and they still tell me how they hated it there and about the armies treatment. I repeat there are many Kashmiris that moved from I.O.K living in Pakistan with Pakistani passports and the number is still increasing. Many Kashmiris shifted (and still shift) and took on a Pakistani passport because they did not want to live in eternal torture in your "great" country which is "secular"... I still don't understand how you are secular when minorities are treated so badly.
> 
> I think i will just ask the Pakistan Nationalists or the Kashmiri Insaaf to give some figures on Kashmir about migration and you can stare at them all you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, bond with Bangladeshis! Infact I have!... I have given the "claptrap" there. I think I really am a walking terror for you hate spreading fanatics here .
> 
> Most Bengalis see us as long-lost brothers We still love those brothers (and not to forget sisters!) just like they love us. Their reaction to us was exactly the opposite of what I saw and felt in India where I feel I am with "man-eating tigers". Infact some Bengalis even offered to take me home and I truly have never felt myself at ease anywhere else (exept in Pakistan). I mean when a person who has very little money wants to take you home and take care of you it really makes you wonder. I wanted to give the guy money but he did'nt even accept that! If Bengalis hated us so much would such a reaction be possible? You probably wont understand all this because you are used to being hostile to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis as is the custom in India and so you think that everyone is like you.
> 
> My friends there told me that most of the Bengalis did NOT want Bangladesh to break up from Pakistan and wanted to remain with Pakistan. They said it was India that wanted to pull us apart all along and it was none of their business to get involved and admitted (unlike you) that India wanted land, resources, wealth and had always wanted to break Pakistan since it gained inependence. They said however that overwhelming force was used and we should have let Mujib rule which would have been better. The truth is that we love our Bangladeshi brothers and the bond is infact ever-stronger than what is used to be before the war. Lets put the question to Bangladeshis now and they can present you with the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Its the hyperventilation and "Rage against the Pakistani" that strikes again, is'nt it? Was'nt Bangladesh a good enough sucess story for you guys? So now you want to take the Punjab by presenting them as evil as you presented West Pakistan when you supported the Bahinis? To tell you the truth you are talking absolute rubbish here. Reaction to what??? I think I'll try and do what you are doing... "Uttar Pradesh treats all Indians as slaves. They keep all the wealth to themselves while giving nothing to the other states. This calls for a rebellion against Uttar Pradesh."
> 
> I am glad that you are able to fight the effects of the drug that make you think like a human rather than a man-eating tiger from the "jungle" which is your true nature. Please continue!



This is too serious a subject to make it into a Humour thread of Jokes!


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> This is too serious a subject to make it into a Humour thread of Jokes!



What little humour did you find there? Okay don't reply... your choice... sleep on it. Continue ignoring stuff that is too hard for you to answer. Well maybe you don't want to admit it as the truth. Is'nt it true that most Bengalis did not want East and West to be seperated and felt only pain when it happened and is'nt the fact true that we still are very close despite the gap that Indians try to create? Is it not true that India was involved in the 71 war only for its self-interest and had no love for the bahinis? Is it not true that you had always wanted to dismember Pakistan since partition which was a reason for getting involved and is it not true that Kashmiris are still moving to Azad Kashmir or Pakistan from IOK constantly? The questions concerning Bangladesh i put to our Bangladeshi brothers and about the question of Kashmir there really is no doubt about the truth.

So you only do the talking when I am not around? Well that just proves my point which i have been making over and over. You find it hard to deny all the stuff that i have said and ignore it as "irrelevant", "insane" and tomarrow you will ignore it as something else. Or even try to say that dimension and his "ilk" are evil so they do not deserve a reply. You simply need an excuse to avoid discussion. Why don't you say that?


----------



## salman nedian

genmirajborgza786 said:


> Totally agreed marriages is a personal thing & anyone can marry anyone love is a gift from ALLAH (RAB) & we should cherish it



This is off the topic but I need to explain it.

It is agreed in all sects that a Muslim man can marry any non Muslim girl provided that the girl is Ahl-e-kitab (The holy book holders means Christians and Jews not Hindus and Sikhs) in case of a man is marrying a Hindu or Sikh girl he must convert her to Muslim although it is better that if a muslim man is marrying a ahl-e-kitab woman he should convert her but he can marry her b/c she is a ahl-e-kitab 

A muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim.

you talked about Quaid-e-azam so he converted his wife to Islam and also Imran khan he converted his wife too (remember she is known as Jamaima khan).

Quaid-e-azam had broken all the ties with his daughter b/c she married a parsi boy.now Quaid was a shia muslim and i am speakig this as a sunni muslim so you get both the point of views.

I agree that marriage is a personal matter but if u remember i was talking about the Propaganda movies of India.

Now consider a terrorist who is blowing himself by saying that it is his own wish and action.but what are the consequences? Ans:more terrorists are getting inspiration.

If some one is drinking Whisky(or any prohibited drink) and saying that it is his own act its fine but if he starts saying that all the muslims should start drinking prohibited drinks and propagates his own theory can any one justify it?

same thing is with Indian propaganda movies i was talking about. they are spreading their own point of views but that thing is wrong for us how can u justify that?

Quaid-e-Azam once explaining the two nation theory said

"Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations they have different culture,traditions and even Calendar. they dont get married in each others communities".

so the better way to make our world a better place to live is not to interfare in any one's religion. 


Salim,
Now dont say that this is emotional blackmail b/c i m serious.


----------



## Bull

salman nedian said:


> A muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim..



Am I not right to say that Muslim women are not allowed to marry outside, bcoz it would make them convert to other relgions and such these rules are selfish in nature and keeps in mind the 'popularity of the relegion' above all others.


----------



## salman nedian

Bull said:


> Am I not right to say that Muslim women are not allowed to marry outside, bcoz it would make them convert to other relgions and such these rules are selfish in nature and keeps in mind the 'popularity of the relegion' above all others.



I have said it before that we should not interfare in other's religion there are certain rules in our religion so nobody have the right to comment on that.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

salman nedian said:


> This is off the topic but I need to explain it.
> 
> It is agreed in all sects that a Muslim man can marry any non Muslim girl provided that the girl is &#8220;Ahl-e-kitab&#8221; (The holy book holders means Christians and Jews not Hindus and Sikhs) in case of a man is marrying a Hindu or Sikh girl he must convert her to Muslim although it is better that if a muslim man is marrying a &#8220;ahl-e-kitab&#8221; woman he should convert her but he can marry her b/c she is a &#8220;ahl-e-kitab&#8221;
> 
> A muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim.
> 
> you talked about Quaid-e-azam so he converted his wife to Islam and also Imran khan he converted his wife too (remember she is known as Jamaima khan).
> 
> Quaid-e-azam had broken all the ties with his daughter b/c she married a parsi boy.now Quaid was a shia muslim and i am speakig this as a sunni muslim so you get both the point of views.
> 
> I agree that marriage is a personal matter but if u remember i was talking about the Propaganda movies of India.
> 
> Now consider a terrorist who is blowing himself by saying that it is his own wish and action.but what are the consequences? Ans:more terrorists are getting inspiration.
> 
> If some one is drinking Whisky(or any prohibited drink) and saying that it is his own act its fine but if he starts saying that all the muslims should start drinking prohibited drinks and propagates his own theory can any one justify it?
> 
> same thing is with Indian propaganda movies i was talking about. they are spreading their own point of views but that thing is wrong for us how can u justify that?
> 
> Quaid-e-Azam once explaining the two nation theory said
> 
> "Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations they have different culture,traditions and even Calendar. they dont get married in each others communities".
> 
> so the better way to make our world a better place to live is not to interfare in any one's religion.
> 
> 
> Salim,
> Now dont say that this is emotional blackmail b/c i m serious.



yo honestly speaking i don't care what anybody said to me my heart & physical desires makes the decision & not Mr.Jinnah got it dude.


----------



## genmirajborgza786

salman nedian said:


> I have said it before that we should not interfare in other's religion there are certain rules in our religion so nobody have the right to comment on that.



bhai if a Hindu girl/boy loves a Muslim girl/boy its their his/her personal matter nobody should interfere in their business its called bad manners IMO i have dated Hindu girls & stayed in a Hindu family friends house when i went to visit them i am a Muslim i believe in one true god ALLAH. & i did not have any problems with that its absolutely ridiculous to bring in religion/country/ethnicity & what not in the matters of the heart.
peace


----------



## yaqubonnet

If the army continues to hijack 160 million peoples of Pakistan and to serve as an obedient servant of USA then Only Allah can Keep Pakistan unite.
Pakistani army was for the defense of Pakistani peoples but they are ruling and killing us from last 60 years.


----------



## Bull

salman nedian said:


> I have said it before that we should not interfare in other's religion there are certain rules in our religion so nobody have the right to comment on that.



Then why posting it here, if you dont want opinions.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> Is'nt it true that most Bengalis did not want East and West to be seperated and felt only pain when it happened and is'nt the fact true that we still are very close despite the gap that Indians try to create?





Did not hear of Bangaldeshi overwhelmingly pro Pakistanis.

If they were, then should they have rejoined Pakistan?



But then I would not like to burst your dreams.


----------



## haviZsultan

yaqubonnet said:


> If the army continues to hijack 160 million peoples of Pakistan and to serve as an obedient servant of USA then Only Allah can Keep Pakistan unite.
> Pakistani army was for the defense of Pakistani peoples but they are ruling and killing us from last 60 years.



Idiot, you come in front of a hundred indians to tell them this????? I understand why we can't be united, because there is always a war-mongering fool that goes around destroying the reputation of Pakistan and giving opportunities to these opportunists to take advantage. You people have no problem and enjoy it when people criticise our country but there are people that really can't take this. Sorry!

Ruling and killing us? Hijack 160 millian people? This is why western media makes all the noise... most Pakistanis are content with Musharrafs rule but there are a few fanatics around who always seek to throw pathetic baseless remarks around.

The army always came as our saviors whenever a corrupt ruler was ruling. Anyway may Allah show you the light.


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Did not hear of Bangaldeshi overwhelmingly pro Pakistanis.
> 
> If they were, then should they have rejoined Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> But then I would not like to burst your dreams.




 I did not say that they were overwhelmingly pro-pakistani. Are you some sort of machine or robot made to exaggerate everything that I say and then deny it? Now, if I would say that Bangadeshis hate us just like Indians and want to tear us apart like maneating-tigers would you start saying that its untrue? I bet you would!  

I was talking about the freindship and closeness that still exists between us and our Bangladeshi brothers because we gained independence together and we once promised to live and die together and fought our common enemy together. I was trying to point out that we were all together once and we once fought against you together. I was trying to say that most Bangladeshis did NOT want to break up from Pakistan. I also wanted to say that most Bangladeshis do not see India as the saviors but rather as opportunists who found the moment right to steal from them and break up Pakistan which they wanted all along.

As I said lets take the question over to our Bangladeshi brothers and see what they think and wipe the crap from your head

Some do go to Pakistan and take nationality but most think that what has been done is done just like us and have no urge to go back.

It is not a dream and the way I was treated there proves that Bangladeshis have no qualms with us and respect us too.


----------



## salman nedian

Waise coming back to topic its good that Pakistan and Bangladesh are developing new strong economic relationship but we should give a name to our relationship for e.g. something like Union of Pakistan and Bangladesh with at least visa free travel ,free trade and joint defence.cant it happen? And what are the steps required for it?

I think a feed back from Bangladeshi brothers is required here that although we have separate administration but there must be something to join us.


----------



## salman nedian

genmirajborgza786 said:


> bhai if a Hindu girl/boy loves a Muslim girl/boy its their his/her personal matter nobody should interfere in their business its called bad manners IMO i have dated Hindu girls & stayed in a Hindu family friends house when i went to visit them i am a Muslim i believe in one true god ALLAH. & i did not have any problems with that its absolutely ridiculous to bring in religion/country/ethnicity & what not in the matters of the heart.
> peace



I am not talking about you or any other individual.Read carefully what i am saying what ever you do its none of my business but open your eyes first and see what i have posted i am talking about the propaganda movies against the beleives of Islam and media is not a personal matter understand?


----------



## akzaman

*'Bangladesh Should Merge With India'*

A member of the International Scientific Committee of the World Centre for Studies and Researches on The Green Book, says that there is a call for Bangladesh to merge with India in order to save it.

He said that Bangladesh faces no future as it will disappear under the sea, something that the author of The Green Book, Libyan leader Muammar Qadhafi has confirmed on a number of occasions. He said Bangladesh's best bet is to submit a proposal to India to say that it is willing to become a state in an Indian Union, and thus to cease to exist as an independent country.

By becoming additional eastern states within India, local democracy will continue, and thus the effect on the people is positive. Moreover, the resources of India's central government would be required to defend its territory and care for its citizens and they can relocate to any other part of the country in the case of flooding.

He pointed out that Bangladesh has no need for an armed force of its own but should instead say to India we are ready to submit to you, come and occupy us and intergate us within India. This would put an end to accusations against Bangladesh regarding terrorism, and allow India to take full responsibility for its new state.

Historically, he said, the entire region has one culture and one destiny. It was British colonialism which ripped the region apart into several failed states the borders of which produced tensions. 

Bangladesh has one chance for survival and that is immediate and unconditional offering of itself for full integration into India, he said.

All politicians of Bangladesh, can submit themselves for election to the new local state after an interim period of transition to India's democracy, or immediately be removed should India wish upon reunification. The armed forces, police and other institutions can be integrated or maintain their existence during a transition phase, or the new states of Bangladesh can have certain autonomy functions at the state level. 

The precedent for integration is not new, with Hong Kong, East and West Germany being but two recent examples which lessons can be learnt from that it is entirely possible for a larger state to easily absorb a smaller one with more benefits than disadvantages, he said. 

Bangladesh 'Should Merge With India'


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

He is dead wrong.

Bangladesh liberated itself with their blood and guts.

Bangladesh must and will remain independent!


----------



## genmirajborgza786

Salim said:


> He is dead wrong.
> 
> Bangladesh liberated itself with their blood and guts.
> 
> Bangladesh must and will remain independent!



No you are wrong Bangladesh 'Should Merge With India' honestly Bangladesh is only 55,000sqml with a population of 160 million how can the people survive in fact Bangladesh should have merged with India in 71 only had it not been for that capitalist fascist dictator gen.Zia Ur Rahman & Khaleda Zia Bangladeshis would have been much more happy plus this would also be good for the Muslims of India as our population who should NOT have separated in the first place would be much more stronger together i totally support Bangladesh's union with India in fact i made it clear in India with my relatives when i visited both Bangladesh & India in 2003 that they both should unite united we stand divided we fall.


----------



## sajan

If Bangladesh can merge with India, i think Sri Lanka should also think the same. This will solve the present conflict in Lanka. We tamil will get a seperate state and the sinhalese will get a seperate state just like the tamil, kannada, malayalee, bengali, punjabi people having their own states and their own gov in Indian union. But the question is will the Indians accepct this idea?


----------



## dabong1

Why not get west bengal to join b/desh as jinnah envisioned.


----------



## josh21x

I dont think we would want either Bangladesh or Sri Lanka to join with us or any other country from the South Asian region. Thank You.

But we are on the look out to merge western europe into our union....


----------



## khanbhai

Salim said:


> He is dead wrong.
> 
> Bangladesh liberated itself with their blood and guts.
> 
> Bangladesh must and will remain independent!



its up to india and if they merge with india that will be good for bangladesh but not for india i guess


----------



## khanbhai

sajan said:


> If Bangladesh can merge with India, i think Sri Lanka should also think the same. This will solve the present conflict in Lanka. We tamil will get a seperate state and the sinhalese will get a seperate state just like the tamil, kannada, malayalee, bengali, punjabi people having their own states and their own gov in Indian union. But the question is will the Indians accepct this idea?




sinhalese dont want to be with india my friend


----------



## khanbhai

josh21x said:


> But we are on the look out to merge western europe into our union....


  
you mean countries in south asia make an organsation like EU?

that will be a good idea but there is one problem kashmir 
we should solve this issue first before moving to the next level


----------



## EagleEyes

josh21x said:


> I dont think we would want either Bangladesh or Sri Lanka to join with us or any other country from the South Asian region. Thank You.
> 
> But we are on the look out to merge western europe into our union....



 Thank you for some laugh.


----------



## salman nedian

genmirajborgza786 said:


> No you are wrong Bangladesh 'Should Merge With India' honestly Bangladesh is only 55,000sqml with a population of 160 million how can the people survive in fact Bangladesh should have merged with India in 71 only had it not been for that capitalist fascist dictator gen.Zia Ur Rahman & Khaleda Zia Bangladeshis would have been much more happy plus this would also be good for the Muslims of India as our population who should NOT have separated in the first place would be much more stronger together i totally support Bangladesh's union with India in fact i made it clear in India with my relatives when i visited both Bangladesh & India in 2003 that they both should unite united we stand divided we fall.



Who are you to advise the independent people to kill their independence? Are you in your senses?
If Bengalis wanted to merge with India they would have merged in 1971 or in 1947.

I have advised Bangladeshis to form a confederation with Pakistan in which their independence is safeguarded But wow you advised them to become slaves.

Illogical post cannot be answered.


----------



## salman nedian

genmirajborgza786,

Bhai This idea will only work when we will be in majority there is a certain way to do any thing. The way you are suggesting will only result in loss of Independence for Bangladesh we need to empower and Unite ourselves first then when we will be in majority or in equal proportion we can gain India back.
I do agree with Allama Iqbal he said in his poem &#8220;Saare jahan se acha&#8221;:
&#8220;Cheen-o-Arab hamara Hindustan hamara
Muslim hain hum saara jahan hamara&#8221;


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

All this about Bangaldesh joining Pakistan is an equal pipedream as they joining India!

One does not sacrifice and dishonour their dead to rejoin those who perpetuated atrocities, as the world observed and Bangaldeshi experienced, even if the Pakistanis deny it!


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## salman nedian

The Bengali Martyrs of Pakistan Movement will be rejoiced if Bangladesh forms a confederation with Pakistan. so they will not be dishonored


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## Tiki Tam Tam

Dream along.

It is not that I have not been to Bangladesh!

Razzakars might! And they are traitors to the Cause!

Bengalis did not win freedom with their sacrifices to throw it away!

There is an English saying - Once Bitten, twice shy!

Emotional they maybe, but intelligence they do not lack.

Are you a Bengali?

Bangaldesh will remain independent and will prosper!

They don't have to join any country.


----------



## voiceofaa

WebMaster said:


> It is interesting to think about the creation of a seprate muslim country, Bangladesh. I have an interesting question for you guys.
> 
> If our Quaid alive today, what would he think about Bangladesh?



If Quaid Azam wld be alive today what wld be his feelings?


----------



## salman nedian

I am speaking about forming a confederation or a Union not saying that Bangladesh should join Pakistan.
European countries formed EU so they lost their independence?
Let me clear one thing. Bangladesh was separated b/c there was no democracy in Pakistan it was a internal conflict or Kursi ka jhagra nothing more than that now if we both countries form a union what is the harm in it? b/c both will have their separate administration and this is possible b/c we both share a common ideology.

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## su-47

voiceofaa said:


> If Quaid Azam wld be alive today what wld be his feelings?



Please translate the text


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## Venkat

if Bangladesh wants to join Pakistan, I am all for it. Their country, their choice. 

But seriously I wonder who in Bangladesh wants to be ruled by the Pakistan army all over again? I dont see such a merger happenign unless Pakistan returns to a stabilised democracy.


----------



## blain2

Venkat said:


> if Bangladesh wants to join Pakistan, I am all for it. Their country, their choice.
> 
> But seriously I wonder who in Bangladesh wants to be ruled by the Pakistan army all over again? I dont see such a merger happenign unless Pakistan returns to a stabilised democracy.



Read Salman's point again. I think he is not talking about a merger of the two countries, rather a block along the lines of EU. Who knows maybe even SL, India may become part of this union.

I would think the primary driver would be economics for such a development.


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## Venkat

blain2 said:


> Read Salman's point again. I think he is not talking about a merger of the two countries, rather a block along the lines of EU. Who knows maybe even SL, India may become part of this union.
> 
> I would think the primary driver would be economics for such a development.




Even, an economic block of two countries require political stability. reg SL, india joining it, anyone remember something called SAARC?


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## blain2

Venkat said:


> Even, an economic block of two countries require political stability. reg SL, india joining it, anyone remember something called SAARC?



Yes but when an entity is defunct and non-functional then maybe another grouping is the need........SAARC is held hostage to Pakistan-India issues....nothing really gets done even bi-laterally at SAARC.....soon enough it will die out. In such a vacuum, why not have a different setting or grouping where at least bilaterally or trilaterally things can get done?

Politcial stability is something that is not always there. However business goes on...currently Pakistani economy is kicking *** even in the face of such turmoil....the trade with BD is the highest that it has ever been....I am sure SL has been doing very well economically despite the long running civil war there so there are possibilities (BTW I am not proposing any Pakistani-BD grouping...simply suggesting that it is possible and cannot be ruled out).


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## bhangra12345

heard of bimstec? 
Bay of Bengal Initiative for Multi-Sectoral Technical and Economic Cooperation

Observe it is saarc minus 

also note the free trade agreements


----------



## EagleEyes

voiceofaa said:


> If Quaid Azam wld be alive today what wld be his feelings?



Damn, is this Al-Talha or M113?


----------



## severus

voiceofaa said:


> If Quaid Azam wld be alive today what wld be his feelings?


he would have said " nice ride !! "

instead of Pak-BD confederation , there should be an Pakistan-India-Bangladesh confederation, similar to EU structure ....


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Dream along.
> 
> It is not that I have not been to Bangladesh!
> 
> Razzakars might! And they are traitors to the Cause!
> 
> Bengalis did not win freedom with their sacrifices to throw it away!
> 
> There is an English saying - Once Bitten, twice shy!
> 
> Emotional they maybe, but intelligence they do not lack.
> 
> Are you a Bengali?
> 
> Bangaldesh will remain independent and will prosper!
> 
> They don't have to join any country.



I have been to Bangladesh but I have only seen people there who treated me like a long-lost brother! Poor people were willing to keep me in their houses! The Bengalis do not hate Pakistanis! Don't spread your drunken bakwas here! We have enough idiots already!

What idiocy is this? Razakkars are traitors to the cause just because they are loyal to Pakistan? Then we should say the same about the Bahinis? Bahinis are traitors to the concept of Pakistani unity! I'll tell you straight, very few of the Bangalis actually wanted to break free and wanted east and west Pakistan to be seperated! So doesn't that prove that they were traitors ? If the Razakkars are seen as traitors today then the Bahinis were seen as no less by many people yesterday!!!

True Bangladesh is free to remain free! The Bengalis chose their destiny and we have no interest in Bangladesh and its constant flooding problems... Any people are free to decide their own destiny and I do not challenge that! They were treated badly because of a power-hungry corrupt fool and i do not deny that either but the thing is its the same drunken old Pakistanophobia that keeps striking Indians that annoys me... 

Tell me something? You support Bangladeshes cause but you say that Kashmir is part of India and should remain so! Why is that? Why the double standards? You say that the Bengalis are free to decide their own future but Kashmiris are not and should remain a part of India? How are you doing better than we did? Atleast we admitted our mistakes and atleast we say that Bhuttos treatment of Bengalis was bad! Do you say the same for the Kashmiri people who are forced to remain in India and all the tortures and injustices of the world inflicted upon them!!! People from there tell me about how they are forced to beg by indian soldiers to spare their lives! They tell me how women were raped and tortured wailing and screaming....
For godsake think like a human and do something for peace!

I pity you Salim! May God show you the light!

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## NadeemAhmad

Pakistan and Bangladesh are nothing but alienated brothers. We are both blessed by Allah Subahana wa&#180;tala, and must work together.

We must learn from the past and then bury it. Both our countries have suffered the animosity of our neighbour, and the sooner we realize that there is strength in unity, the better it will be for us.


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## NadeemAhmad

After 1971, India had the opportunity to create a friendly nation in its east. Unfortunately for them, their short sighted leaders have failed to win the affections of the people of B'desh.

We must take this opportunity to improve our relations with B'desh and supply them with weapons and train their soldiers in order to counter Indian aggression. This will create a strong link between Pakistan and B'desh, and in case of war, will give us a valuable ally.

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## Tiki Tam Tam

> Tell me something? You support Bangladeshes cause but you say that Kashmir is part of India and should remain so! Why is that? Why the double standards? You say that the Bengalis are free to decide their own future but Kashmiris are not and should remain a part of India? How are you doing better than we did? Atleast we admitted our mistakes and atleast we say that Bhuttos treatment of Bengalis was bad! Do you say the same for the Kashmiri people who are forced to remain in India and all the tortures and injustices of the world inflicted upon them!!! People from there tell me about how they are forced to beg by indian soldiers to spare their lives! They tell me how women were raped and tortured wailing and screaming....
> For godsake think like a human and do something for peace!



Bangladesh is a reality. It exists. They don't require my support or rejection. 

You admitted nothing. If you did, then there would be no Bangladesh. Read Musharraf to understand the West Punjabi arrogance that led to the Bengalis to have their own country. You stole their right to govern Pakistan which they won fair and square in a democratic process.

After the fact, you can say what you want including being long lost brothers. What about the Mukti Joddhas who are no longer on earth?

Kashmir has not rebelled notwithstanding pipedreams of some. That is the difference. Everytime it is the Kashmiris who have alerted the Army of Pakistani infiltrations which were precursors to the actual campaign by Pakistan. 

As far as your pity is concerned, please save it for yourself. You require it in abundance and even then it will not be adequate!


----------



## waz

Salim said:


> Bangladesh is a reality. It exists. They don't require my support or rejection.
> Kashmir has not rebelled notwithstanding pipedreams of some. That is the difference. Everytime it is the Kashmiris who have alerted the Army of Pakistani infiltrations which were precursors to the actual campaign by Pakistan.
> QUOTE]
> 
> What rubbish and sheer ignorance! I am Kashmiri and you post is an insult to me and every other Kashmiri who yearns for freedom from the oppressive yoke of the Hindustan regime. There has been open rebellion in the region ever since the partition, that is why it is one of the most soldier saturated areas in the entire world where your troops try to hem back the tide of freedom with machine guns and barbed wire. As for the likes of
> Tashi Namgyal and Morop Tsering they are not from the Kashmiri community.


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## waz

Double post.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

waz said:


> Salim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh is a reality. It exists. They don't require my support or rejection.
> Kashmir has not rebelled notwithstanding pipedreams of some. That is the difference. Everytime it is the Kashmiris who have alerted the Army of Pakistani infiltrations which were precursors to the actual campaign by Pakistan.
> QUOTE]
> 
> What rubbish and sheer ignorance! I am Kashmiri and you post is an insult to me and every other Kashmiri who yearns for freedom from the oppressive yoke of the Hindustan regime. There has been open rebellion in the region ever since the partition, that is why it is one of the most soldier saturated areas in the entire world where your troops try to hem back the tide of freedom with machine guns and barbed wire. As for the likes of
> Tashi Namgyal and Morop Tsering they are not from the Kashmiri community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you are a proud Kashmiri from Mirpur.
> 
> And you are also a proud of your Pakistani origin, though one wonders if you are a free Kashmiri or a Pakistani because if you are a Pakistani then you are not a free Kashmiri.
> 
> And yet you are brave enough to be in the UK and be a UK citizen and then talk big.
> 
> Come over and face the reality instead of sitting in your comfortable faraway land day dreaming!
> 
> Funny way to want freedom by sitting in the UK and holding an UK citizenship!
> 
> Pakistan treated you bad that you had to flee? There is no Hindustan in Pakistan so what is your grouse?!
> 
> Admin Edit: There is no need to post incorrect information or assume things to make your "case" better against anyone. This is nothing but a great trick to turn debates into far off topic flaim baits, and i am sure you acknowledge that, yet you go on to use the technique built through 5+ years of posting on the internet forum?
> 
> I hope this can be avoided in the future, and is understandable.
Click to expand...


----------



## waz

Salim said:


> waz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you are a proud Kahmiri from Mirpur.
> 
> And you are also a proud Pakistani.
> 
> And yet you are brave enough to be in the UK and be a UK citizen and then talk big.
> 
> Come over and face the reality instead of sitting in your comfortable faraway land day dreaming!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not from Mirpur which goes to show your paranoid and deluded nature. I have family all over the Azad region mainly from Kotli and Muzaffarabad district along with second cousins in the occupied part.
> 
> Yes I am proud of Pakistan and want to be part of the state. Sure I was born and raised in the UK so what does that mean I have no right to be passionate about my ethic routes and a cause that my family has died for? As for "coming over" don't make me laugh I have spent time living there and probably saw more in that time than you have sitting away in Mata land talking about our affairs.....
Click to expand...


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

> I am not from Mirpur which goes to show your paranoid and deluded nature. I have family all over the Azad region mainly from Kotli and Muzaffarabad district along with second cousins in the occupied part.
> 
> Yes I am proud of Pakistan and want to be part of the state. Sure I was born and raised in the UK so what does that mean I have no right to be passionate about my ethic routes and a cause that my family has died for? As for "coming over" don't make me laugh I have spent time living there and probably saw more in that time than you have sitting away in Mata land talking about our affairs.....



So you are one of those who like to take up a cause in the safety of far off lands?

Hardly, the type to be admired.

So you are from Kotli! Good for you.

How has your family died out there and for what cause may I ask to die in Kotli?

You have been to Kotli and you have been living there? MI 5 knows about it? How is it that you live in two countries at the same time? Stop fibbing.

I was in Kashmir from 1950s, if that will help!


----------



## waz

Salim said:


> So you are one of those who like to take up a cause in the safety of far off lands?
> 
> Hardly, the type to be admired.





I didnt know that geographical location was a prerequisite to taking up a cause. If so why the hell are you talking about it? Your as alien it comes to Kashmir at least I have close links to the region and after all am one unlike you. 

Anyhow your post reeks of desperation and stupidity and I told you before I have spent a great deal of time in the region. Also tell me how do you know my contribution to the cause has just been internet postings? Its a lot more than that, but saying that to paper tigers like yourself is a waste of time.


----------



## Tiki Tam Tam

Waz,

I find that you are newbie around here.

Do find out if I am a paper tiger.

It just indicates your immaturity. 

If you contributed more than internet postings, that sure would be interesting to the British govt I assure you. Pray what exactly you have done?

I too have close links to Kashmir.


----------



## Bull

waz said:


> I didnt know that geographical location was a prerequisite to taking up a cause. If so why the hell are you talking about it? Your as alien it comes to Kashmir at least I have close links to the region and after all am one unlike you.
> 
> Anyhow your post reeks of desperation and stupidity and I told you before I have spent a great deal of time in the region. Also tell me how do you know my contribution to the cause has just been internet postings? Its a lot more than that, but saying that to paper tigers like yourself is a waste of time.



Well right, you are one of those guys who contributed tot hat idiotic cause by running away and hiding under your bed in london.


----------



## waz

Salim said:


> So you are one of those who like to take up a cause in the safety of far off lands?
> 
> Hardly, the type to be admired.
> 
> So you are from Kotli! Good for you.
> 
> How has your family died out there and for what cause may I ask to die in Kotli?
> 
> You have been to Kotli and you have been living there? MI 5 knows about it? How is it that you live in two countries at the same time? Stop fibbing.
> 
> I was in Kashmir from 1950s, if that will help!




It will be helpful to stick to your usual BS not edit it when I reply to your posting.

My family died in wars against your armed forces and also in the struggle in the occupied state. They didnt die in Kotli moron.

Yes when you go back to see family you do tend to live out there for a few months at a time. But if your brain fails to comprehend that so be it. When did I say that I was in two nations at the same time? Is hallucinating also a trait of yours along with stupidity? MI5 lol! What on earth are you going on about? By the way I dont fib thats your trait with your great Kashmir has never been in rebellion remark above.

You were there in the 50s and? You still are ignorant about a great deal of things.


----------



## waz

Salim said:


> Waz,
> 
> I find that you are newbie around here.
> 
> Do find out if I am a paper tiger.
> 
> It just indicates your immaturity.
> 
> If you contributed more than internet postings, that sure would be interesting to the British govt I assure you. Pray what exactly you have done?
> 
> I too have close links to Kashmir.



I am a newbie? Did you look at my joining date and I'm also on the think tank. I called you a paper tiger after your stupid remark to me so what was that about maturity? 

As for contributed more than just postings one such way is charitable work which the government is well aware of after all they do give us the registered charity number.


----------



## waz

Bull said:


> Well right, you are one of those guys who contributed tot hat idiotic cause by running away and hiding under your bed in london.



The cause is not idiotic it's a noble one especially against your disgusting ****** kind who occupy our land and people. 

As for running away do tell me if you ever visit London. Where upon you can say that to my face and I&#8217;ll give the response to me &#8220;hiding under my bed&#8221; by smashing your skull straight through the pavement.

Admin Edit: There is no need to respond to flaim baits. Simply press the report button, and actions will be taken in the future. Thanks!


----------



## Bull

waz said:


> The cause is not idiotic it's a noble one especially against your disgusting ****** kind who occupy our land and people..



Our land and our people...come back and fight, dont waste ur time in london.



waz said:


> As for running away do tell me if you ever visit London. Where upon you can say that to my face and I&#8217;ll give the response to me &#8220;hiding under my bed&#8221; by smashing your skull straight through the pavement.



Lol...

Admin Edit: How exactly are you suppose to be the one telling him to come to fight? Please stop mocking and making a fool out of yourself. 

Thanks.


----------



## josh21x

waz said:


> The cause is not idiotic it's a noble one especially against your disgusting ****** kind who occupy our land and people.



Your Land? How?
Na, its ours.



> As for running away do tell me if you ever visit London. Where upon you can say that to my face and I&#8217;ll give the response to me &#8220;hiding under my bed&#8221; by smashing your skull straight through the pavement



I will be more bothered about the metropolitan police taking down your clearly terroristic *** down. You sure Scotland Yard not looking through your computer? How about survellience?
Pakistani, Muslim and terroristic instincts- 7/11. Planning to blow up Golders Green?

Admin Edit: Moron banned permanently.


----------



## waz

josh21x said:


> Your Land? How?
> Na, its ours.



Of course it is that must have been the last thing those Indian officers said before they took a bullet to the head in that gun battle over in the Kashmir section. 




josh21x said:


> Your Land? How?
> I will be more bothered about the metropolitan police taking down your clearly terroristic *** down. You sure Scotland Yard not looking through your computer? How about survellience?
> Pakistani, Muslim and terroristic instincts- 7/11. Planning to blow up Golders Green?



lol......I'm actually patriotic to the nation I was born and raised in and hate the terrorists who did such a thing. In actual fact a part of the effort against them, ideological differences over faith and that. How you equate them to me is a mystery but then you are a moron with pi$s poor arguments so its not a surprise. 

Get out of here.


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## EagleEyes

The thread is getting locked. The thread will be investigated and actions will be taken against the violaters.

Thanks.


----------



## EagleEyes

Thread re-opened.

That means no more bullsh!t.


----------



## haviZsultan

Salim said:


> Bangladesh is a reality. It exists. They don't require my support or rejection.





So let me get this straight, it was a great thing that Bangladesh gained freedom despite many Bangladeshis themselves not wanting to break apart while it is a untrue that Kashmir should gain freedom against constant persecution and oppression and should keep suffering at your hands despite nearly the whole Kashmiri population being aligned against you and seeking Independence!



Salim said:


> You admitted nothing. If you did, then there would be no Bangladesh. Read Musharraf to understand the West Punjabi arrogance that led to the Bengalis to have their own country. You stole their right to govern Pakistan which they won fair and square in a democratic process.



. You seek to blame everything on the Punjabis. Was'nt Bangladesh a good enough sucess story for you guys... now you even want to break the rest of Pakistan by trying to tell us that Punjabi rule is oppressive so that you can steal land from us now as you stole land from Bangladesh under the veil of Pakistani oppression!!! What a joke! 

True, Yahya and power hungry Bhutto stole their right but I think there would have been a similar story with West Pakistan if Mujib was made prime minister as many West Pakistanis would be unhappy to have him as their Prime-minister! Especially after the Bhutto bastards Roti, Kapra, makaan which convinced so many poor people... There would have been civil strife in west Pakistan instead of the east Pakistan then and that way you would get a chance to steal land from west Pakistan instead of the land you stole from Bangladesh!




Salim said:


> After the fact, you can say what you want including being long lost brothers. What about the Mukti Joddhas who are no longer on earth?



Like it or not there is and always has been a bond between us and our Bengali brothers! We fought together against Indian injustice! We fought countless wars together from1948 to 1971 against you. We were together in this once and Bengali and Pakistani both fought and died fighting against our common enemy of India together! True these brothers have departed their own seperate ways ( and perhaps that has brought us even closer) but still we love Bengalis as they love us! I have been to Bangladesh and the warm welcome I have recieved was second to none!

I think that the fact you are talking about made chaos was unavoidable! I do believe MUR should have been given control of Pakistan but that would only have alienated the west Pakistanis. Middle class people in west Pakistan might even have accepted his rule but the lower class who Bhutto made fake promises to would have gone on a rampage! There would be problems either way! 



Salim said:


> Kashmir has not rebelled notwithstanding pipedreams of some. That is the difference. Everytime it is the Kashmiris who have alerted the Army of Pakistani infiltrations which were precursors to the actual campaign by Pakistan.



You're right there is a major difference in the fact that most Bangalis did not want to be seperated from Pakistan and wanted east and west to be united even though they wanted the death and destruction to end and were sad when Independence was declared despite being content that the fighting had ended while nearly all of Kashmir yearns for freedom and begs to be free and have a homeland of their own! You are absolutely right about there being a difference! 

Look at your attitude towards Waz... i'm surprised how anyone can be so inhuman! The person has lost his family and rather than supporting him and sharing his pain you are spraying salt on his wounds! I tell you what, I know many Kashmiris like these myself and I know of the willpower they have and the day these people start fighting your rule even your hell will not be able to save India so you should be grateful that we give these people a new life and an escape from Indian oppression! 

Kashmir HAS rebelled constantly if you are forgetting but has gained nothing from the rebellions as all Kashmiris have not raised arms and the rebellions have been crushed in a short period! There is an insurgency raging in Kashmir even now if you are forgetting! There are many insurgent groups fighting to break free from oppressive Indian rule and there are constantly reports of fighting!





You are also calling the Razakkars traitors as they were loyal to the cause of a united Islamic nation for people who had escaped Indian oppression and mistreatment while you are saying the Bahinis who fought for themselves and against the mistreatment of Bhutto were noble heroes! I believe any person or people who wish to choose their destiny should be free to do so! If the Bahinis were heroes for one cause the the Razakars were for another!!! Please don't spread your hypocracy and double-standards all over the world!

Do you ever wonder why you people are so alone in this world and why no one supports you? We have many Bengalis on this site... are they being taken in by your moaning? Even they stand by us in criticizing India on Kashmir and its blame games about how Bangladesh and Pakistan are responsible for everything going wrong in India. Ever wonder why everyone dislikes you Indians? I have many Bengali freinds who hate India and are very close to us Pakistanis! I know Kashmiris and muslims who migrated from India from 1998 to 2004 who hate India... ever wonder why? There are Sikhs, Hindus and christians in Pakistan who are totally against India and its stupid policies... ever wonder why? My father is Indian and I am supposed to be one too... ever wonder why i went out of the way to get a Pakistani passport and wanted to be a Pakistani? And at last is the world giving a damn about your senseless moaning and wailing about how Pakistan is an unstable nation and how Pakistan has done injustice to the world always while India is a highly developed compared to Pakistan, is more capable and has no problems and issues at all? As I say respect the world and the world will respect you! The attitude that you represent is nothing to respect but it is something to be loathed! Seeing the attitude of you guys I am ashamed to have anything to do with India! 

It is exactly this hypocritical senseless attitude that the world despises about you! You will pick out all of Pakistans faults and talk about all humanity when it comes to Pakistan or some other country you have some long-standing hatred against but when it comes to India it is only Indian supremacy that reigns! Your hypocracy and double standards are proven by your support for independence of Bangladesh but not for independence of Kashmir. Your calling Razakars traitors but not the Bahinis traitors! There are countless such examples!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Keysersoze

Right Dimension I suggest in future you learn how to debate with out personal rancour.....I am going to temporarily remove your post pending Moderator discussion........
If it gets permanently removed think about alllll that writing that went to waste........


----------



## Keysersoze

dimension117 said:


> Personal what? What was wrong with that post??? It was a perfect reply? There was no insulting... what did you manage to find in it that struck you? Is this a crude joke or something? I'm not impressed by this at all! There was little humour, nothing insulting and you deleted the post!... I can't believe this!!! I protest this action! That post took me 2.30 hours to type up and edit again and again...
> 
> If you found some part of this post so aggressive why did you not snip the parts you found aggressive and leave the points there! This post makes so many important and good points. Whats wrong with it??? Good thing you don't have that sort of authority to delete posts!
> 
> If this post is not placed back I will leave this site as I have absolutely no interest in being in a place where I am simply not accepted! It is one of the things I hate most!



Dimension there was plenty of stuff that I found to be of a personal nature. I will allow other moderators to make the decision as well. So bide your time and let the decision be made. before storming off in a huff.


----------



## EagleEyes

Time for a lock again.


----------



## Keysersoze

thread re-opened.....
1)No flame wars
2)No personal attacks
3)Stick to the topic


----------



## gromell

Major General AKM Shafiullah was the Second in Command of Seceond East Bengal Regiment that revolted on the night of March 25, 1971. He talks about the days of December 1971 just before Pakistan Army surrendered. 

Sometime around end Sept-ember/early October, we began to feel that we were gaining ground in Bangladesh. The Freedom Fighters we sent inside Bangladesh were making their presence felt inside the country -- although they did not occupy any territory.

IThere was tremendous response from the people who came in thousands to participate in the War. They were so enthusiastic that they needed only 2-3 weeks training before induction in the operation zone. 

We decided, in the context of the changed situation, to go for capture and occupation of territory, by launching classical offensive to enter Bangladesh and capture territory from early November. This commenced with the capture of territories along the border. My sector troops were deployed in an area extending from Sylhet/Karimganj, Akhaura, Brahmanbaria, Narshingdi, Raipura right upto Bhaluka. We had our links and informers based on whose information we used to infiltrate our troops inside Bangladesh through the gaps. 

The Pakistan army had not begun to withdraw till then, but only after we had started hitting them in certain places. One of the major offensives in our sector was to capture Akhaura. On December 3, when we were fighting almost hand-to-hand with the enemy, Pakistan declared war on India. By then we had entered into collaboration with India. It was called Joint Command Force. I was then commanding a force called the 'S" Force, S' stood for the first letter of my name. Akhaura was captured on Dec 4. The Banglaees were rejoicing and came out on the streets in droves and welcomed us with relief. It is difficult to describe the feelings of the local people at that time.

After the capture of Akhaura our plan was to proceed to Dhaka. The route we decided to take was Bhairab-Ashuganj across the Meghna to Narshingdi and on to Dhaka. This was the easiest way to get to Dhaka. We started from Akhaura on December 6, all on foot since we had no transport.

When we started for Dhaka there were enemy troops in Sylhet and we did not know their exact dispositions. As I was moving along Sylhet, our rear was exposed and we risked being attacked by the enemy. In fact we were not attacked but encountered them as they were running away from Sylhet. While moving towards Brahmanbaria when I reached Paikpara, my leading battalion, under Major Nasim, had placed a blocking position on the road at our back to prevent any one approaching from our rear from Sylhet. On the 6th of December, India recognised Bangladesh. We were rejoicing the event. 

On our way, we found the villages to be deserted, whoever were still there had terrified looks. I ma not sure if they had any idea that their country was going to be independent soon, but they seemed worried. That is because at the initial stage of the war when we are resisting the Pakistan Army, but had to fall back, these people were subjected to severe oppression by the Pak army. So, when we entered again they were not sure whether we would be successful this time. They were very guarded in their reaction. 

As we were proceeding we found a vehicle approaching from our rear, which looked like one belonging to Nasim's battalion. We thought perhaps Teliapara axis was clear and the vehicle belonged to these elements. We waived at it to stop but found that it was full of Pak troops. They were fleeing Sylhet. We asked them to put their hands up. But they suddenly started firing and the person sitting on the front of the truck got out and grabbed me. We started jostling. Neither of us could bring out our weapon. My runner was holding my sten gun while his own rifle was slung on his shoulder. He was trying to get the Pak JCO with the sten gun. But due to the jostling at one time I came in front of my runner's sten gun and at another time the Pakistani. 

At one time I hit the JCO on the groin and he loosened his grip. At this point I gave him a blow and knocked him over. I hit him once again with my runner's rifle. The JCO rolled over and ran behind my runner, used him as a shield and started firing with the sten at me. At this point I saw another truck approaching us. Thinking it to be belonging to the enemy I tried to fire with the rifle but it gave away. When I tried to use my pistol, I found that it was also damaged. What had happened was that two bullets from the sten that the Pak JCO had fired at me struck the pistol. As Providence would have it, only two of the bullets that he fired from the sten hit my pistol that was slung against my waist. It was a miraculous escape. When I found that I was left with no weapon, I jumped into a nearby ditch. There were Pak soldiers in that ruck, I saw them alighting and tried to shoot.

I saw from the ditch the Pak troops taking up positions. I was desperate. I got up from the ditch drenched in mud, and my dress being of olive green appeared to be khaki, the dress the Pakistanis were wearing. So I got up and proceeded in a manner as if I was a commander inspecting their deployment. I was carrying a small Holy Quran and praying to Allah for a weapon and beseeched Him that I should not be killed without a fight. I walked about 150 yards and entered the village nearby. 

In the action of my troops 27 Pak soldiers were killed and 13 injured. I evacuated the wounded to a village nearby for treatment. Since I had no vehicle, I used the Pak vehicle which was still running to evacuate the wounded. Nasim was seriously wounded at that time. 

We reached Ashuganj on the 8th. The Pakistani troops, who had withdrawn from Brahmanbaria, fell back on Ashuganj. The Indians and we launched an attack on the Pakistani forces on the 9th. The Pakistani destroyed the Bhairab Bridge on the Ashuganj side with explosives on 9th. On 11th morning they destroyed the Bhairab side of the span and withdrew to Bhairab. The Indians meanwhile sent a battalion to encircle the Pakistanis. We went down south to Lalpur, crossed the Meghna and reached Raipura on the 12th. On the 13th we reached Narshingdi, and crossed Demra on the evening of the 14th.

We did not know much of what was happening in Dhaka, but as we were approaching Dhaka we heard the call to the Pakistanis on the radio to surrender.

When we reached Demra we knew that it was all over. We faced no resistance along the way. We were just walking. As the area was familiar to me I crossed the river, went on the other side and started probe in to Demra from the north i.e. the west of the Sitalakhya and took surrender of one of the Pakistani battalions, whose Commanding Officer was Col Khilji. 

I was ordered to be present at the airport to receive General Arora at the Race Course for the surrender ceremony. There could not have been a more exhilarating news for us. I planned to move but had no transport to go to Dhaka. As you can imagine, we were moving all this while on foot. I asked Col Khilji to reach me to the airport in his jeep. We had an Indian Brigadier Sabek Singh with us. 

As I was moving towards Dhaka I had to move through the ranks of the Pakistani soldiers who had not surrendered till then and were fired upon even though we were traveling in a Pak jeep. We had to get Khilji to tell the Pakistanis not to fire. We reached the airport by 1530 and found Niazi and Rao Farman Ali. I knew Niazi when he was a Lt Colonel.

There was also Brig Baker Siddiqui, COS, Eastern Command. He was once commanding an East Bengal Regiment. And when I was doing my staff college he was my instructor. He said, "Hello Shafiullah, how are you? You fought well". And I replied, "It was all your teaching sir". 

Niazi asked, "How are you Tiger?" I found him to be lacking a commander's charisma. He was heartbroken. We rushed to the Race Course from the airport. I was a member of Bangladesh delegation. But we were not sure what we were supposed to do. I was standing in front of the signing table. That's why I do not appear in any photographs. There was rejoicing all around. We put Niazi on a jeep and sent him away. That night I did not come across anyone. 

Major Genral Shafiullah spoke to Kaushik Sankar Das.

Source: http://www.thedailystar.net/suppliments/2004/victory_day/vic02.htm

I believe in the following historical photograph, the guy in the extreme front-right is Major General Safiullah (or Major General Moinul Hussein, who also fought in the 71 war), 2nd from left is Niazi, 3rd from left is Lt. General J. S. Aurora. If I am wrong on their names, please let me know. This was taken when they were walking down to the desk in the open field of Race Cource where surrender papers were signed by Lt General Aurora and Niazi.


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## gromell

*'I would rather die than sign any false statement'*​
Sufia Kamal, one of the leading poets and pioneer in establishing women's rights in Bangladesh, was confined to her residence in Dhanmondi during the whole nine months of Bangladesh's liberation war in 1971. 

When the news of the 'killings' of Sufia Kamal and Dr Nilima Ibrahim by Pak Army after the crack down on March 25, 1971 was broadcast on Akashbani, a radio station of the Indian state West Bengal, it drew criticism internationally and countries across the world put diplomatic pressure on the then Pakistani military government for clarification. The Pakistani government was forced to broadcast an interview of the poet on radio only to prove that Sufia Kamal was still alive.

In an interview with now defunct 'Weekly Bichitra' on December 7, 1991, Sufia Kamal recalled her memories of 1971. We publish excerpts of that interview taken by Selim Omrao Khan.

Bichitra:How did you pass the nine months of house arrest during liberation war?

Sufia Kamal: I was confined in my house during the whole liberation war. Nobody was able to come to my house on 26, 27, 28th March due to military presence in front of my house. One night Pakistani army came to the residence of Wing Commander Hamidullah, which was close to my house. Immediately after I heard that Pakistani army arrested Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and seized the belongings of his house. 

At the beginning of April, I heard liberation war had started. I tried to gather news about the war in many ways. Pakistani army kept strong watch on my house by setting up a permanent camp in front of it. Everybody used to visit my house through the back door. Pakistani army started arresting people from the month of April. An unknown silence gripped the whole Dhaka city. Borhan Uddin Khan Jahangir, now a professor of Dhaka University, came to my house through back door. He told me, "They (army) are torturing the women. Where can we keep them?" Though I couldn't go out but we tried to make arrangements to keep some girls in a safer place.

In May, Shahadat Chowdhuy, now editor of the 'Weekly Bichitra', Jewel and Rumi came to my house. Rumi used to call me mother. He hugged me and said, "Ma, I will go to the war." I told Rumi's mother Jahanara Imam that his son wanted to join the war. She replied, "Since he wants to, let him go." 

In the month of May, many families around my house left Dhaka in search of a safer place. They gave me their ration cards and I collected food from shops with those cards. Prof. Giasuddin and Shahidullah Kaiser would come to my house through the back door and take those food for the freedom fighters.

Pakistani army continued their atrocities in the month of June. I made an arrangement to send Lulu and Tulu, my two daughters, to Agartola. I was not getting any information about them. One evening, a rickshaw puller came to my house and gave me a small letter. It said, "They have safely crossed the border". I was relieved. 

I started going out from July. I would go to the hospital with food and medicine for the injured people. At that time there was an acute crisis of food and medicine in the hospital. I used to give those food and medicine to certain rickshaw pullers at Science Laboratory. They would take the food and medicine to the freedom fighters.

I was able to establish closer contact with the freedom fighters in August. As Pakistani army kept their strong watch on me, I would try to help the freedom fighters in different ways ignoring the risks. 

Many freedom fighters were caught in the hand of Pakistani army in August. They arrested Shaheed Altaf Mahmud and some of his relative and artist Abul Barak Alvi. Shafi Imam Rumi, Masud Sadek Chullu and Jwel were also arrested. After four days Alvi was released from concentration camp and came to my house. He had marks of atrocious tortures all over his body. I became emotional and hugged Alvi tightly. But Altaf Mahmud, Jewel and Rumi never came back. 

The rest of the three months I heard only the news of freedom fighters taking control of many parts. I spent the whole October in anxiety.

In the month of November We came to know that Al-Badar and Razakars were killing many people. Pakistani army increased their vigilant on my house. On November 15, I heard a sad news from Chittagong that Pakistani army killed Kahar Chowdhury, my son-in-law. They killed him because they were very angry with me. 

At the beginning of December, I heard that many parts of the country were freed from the grip of Pakistani army. After hearing these news, I had mixed feelings. I was excited and at the same time filled with sorrow. We were getting freedom at the cost of blood shed by so many people. On December 13, freedom fighters began to gather at my resident. 

On December 15 Pakistani forces fled from many parts of the city and took shelter inside the cantonment. Pakistani army encircled the house of Shiekh Mujibur Rahman till the morning of December 16.

On December 16, Dr. Dora was shot dead while passing a house of Dhanmondi where Sheikh Hasina and Sheikh Rehana and Mujib's wife Fazilatunnesa were kept under house arrest for the nine months. I rushed to her house after hearing the news. After few hours we received information that Pakistani occupation forces would surrender at the then Racecourse Maidan at 3 pm. I was filled with emotions. Thousands of people took to the streets after hearing the news. Freedom fighters shot blank shots in the sky to celebrate the freedom. 

What was the most memorable event in those months? 
Sufia Kamal: On December 7, Shahidullah Kaiser came to my house. I asked him to leave immediately because there were rumours that Pakistani military was killing the intellectuals in Dhaka. They had prepared a list of intellectuals and other important persons. Shahidullah Kaiser said, "I would not leave Dhaka. If I leave Dhaka then who would work?" At that time Dr. Fazle Rabbi told me over the phone, "I heard that the Pakistani army will kill us and your name is also that list. Why are you not leaving Dhaka?" At that time Dhaka was a city of rumours. After few days I heard that many of my acquaintances were missing. I heard that Pakistani army and their collaborators picked up many noted persons including Shahidullah Kaiser, Munir Chowdhury and Dr. Fazle Rabbi from their houses. They cautioned me to leave Dhaka but they themselves did not leave and got caught. They proved their patriotism to their motherland by sacrificing their lives. All of them helped the freedom fighters during the liberation war in different ways by taking risks. And that's why they became the target of Pakistani army. 

Bichitra: "In 1971 no massacre took place in Bangladesh." Some intellectuals in Dhaka signed a statement of the then Iaheya government which contained the above title. How did you refrain from signing the statement? 

Sufia Kamal: I could never sign a statement which was not true. Zillur Rahman, the then regional director of Radio East Pakistan, came to my house and forwarded a paper to me to sign. I got angry after reading the paper. I refused to sign it because it said that the Pakistani army committed no crime in the then East Pakistan. I got furious with Zillur Rahman and asked him how I could he expect me to sign something which was a lie. Zillur Rahman became angry too and said, "If you don't give your signature then it might create a problem both for you and your son-in-law Kahar Chowdhury." I told him that I didn't care for my life. I said, "I would rather die than put my signature on the a false statement." 

Translated by Akbar Hussain

Source: Independence Day Special

Sufia Kamal was a poet, writer, organizer and activist from Bangladesh. She was born to a Muslim family in Barisal, Bangladesh. She is one of the most widely recognized cultural personalities in Bangladesh. When she died in 1999, she was buried with full state honors, the first woman in Bangladesh to receive this honor.


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## gromell

"We must know our past. We can only build our future based on the values and spirit of the past. But definitely not based on falsehood and lies. Truth must be known to people. The efforts should be to separate the facts from fiction. 

Every political party used freedom fight and the fighters for political mileage instead of genuinely respect the sacrifice and courage of the fighters. They all tried to monopolise the war of independence. It should not have been. Many people like me fought for certain values. We fought because we thought people wanted freedom from Pakistan. Life is full of risks. I was not afraid of death, but I was afraid of my life on my knees under the Pakistanis. I revolted though I had oath of allegiance to Pakistan and its constitution. But I was more loyal to my sense of honour and dignity."- Major General Moinul Hussein Chowdhury.

Major General Moin-ul Hussain Choudhury, was the Company Commander of Second East Bengal Regiment and eventually became a Battallion Commander of the same regiment that captured Akhaora from the clutches of Pakistan Army early December 1971.

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## gromell

I feel sad, as a Muslim that so called "Muslims" from Pakistan Army did this to our Bengali Muslim sisters. And for any Pakistani, whom this may concern: if you read this and get blind by your nationalist emotion, please try to control yourself and reflect on the fact of evidence rather than trying to react by distorting the facts and deny them in the most unislamic fashion(without being sure of their invalidity). 

*Tales of the tortured​*
Many women who participated actively in the 1971 war were arrested and kept in camps experiencing inhuman conditions. Rape, torture and in many cases death was common in those camps. We tell the stories of two women participants who were subjected extreme nature of abuse and brutality. To protect the privacy of these women, we have changed their identities. 

Adila Begum 
When the Pakistan army cracked down in Dhaka we were angry but not scared. We belonged to a family of politicians and our eldest brother was a Chhatra League leader in the Comilla city. He came home a few nights after that and told our family to prepare to fight in the resistance army. He said that the army had already moved close along the Gumti river. There were 19 of us from the same bari and we began to train to fight alongside our brothers. 

The first fight took place in Burichong thana and we suffered heavy casualties. Our weapons were not good enough to fight the Pakistan army guns. Some of us were cut off from the main group and we ran to hide through the swampy area. We found some derelict huts that night and stayed in them. Three days later we skirted the area and tried to return home but found that the army had attacked our home. I later learned that my brother and two of my cousins were killed. I finally made it after almost a month moving from place to place with my younger brother and cousin along with some other refugees.

Till the middle of April, life was relatively simple, but things got worse when the local leaders began to talk about raising "village defenders." Actually the idea was not bad because the defenders -- who were later called razakars -- were local people and we knew them all. They were the poor villagers who had no work so this new job made them better off. They didn't bother us, but once the Pakistan army declared prizes for catching Muktis, these razakars became greedy and started to demand money from us, threatening to tell the Pakistan army if we did not pay. 

After a month we became so scared that my father sent my sister and me to Comilla town. We were going towards a relative's house when the army began to stop all rickshaws and check them. Suddenly two men were running through the street and the army fired at them. Both were hit. We became so scared that we also started to run and there was complete chaos. I fell down and hit my head. When I regained my senses, I realised I was being slapped by a Khansena. They dragged me and two others into a truck and we were taken to the military camp. 

From the very first day they thought I was also a freedom fighter and beat me up. I don't know why they didn't kill me because they did everything else. There were several girls like me in the camp and we were regularly tortured. Then they thought that it was much better to let me cook and clean. I became their servant. They wouldn't let me wash or clean myself and I smelt foul. I cooked -- lal kumra and lau and bhat -- for other Bengalis. They ate chapati and I made tons of them. Even now, years later, I can't make chapatis, and seeing them makes me sick. 

One day an officer came and without saying anything started to beat me up. Maybe being raped would have been better because hours later when I regained consciousness, I had found that I had lost so many of my teeth and my forehead was bleeding. The scars are still there. I later learnt his best friend had been killed in a fight. Next day I was dragged out and made to clean ditches and then prepare chapatis. 

I taught myself one thing -- that was not to think of my family or what would happen the next day. If I did I would have gone mad. So slowly the faces faded from memory. I think it helped me survive. 

When winter came, a Pakistani soldier told me that war was imminent. He also said that they would be gone soon and I would be free. The he did something strange. He searched me including my private parts looking for hidden gold. He must have been mad to think I still had gold with me after all this time.

But war did come and one day we heard them leave. Before they left they killed a few prisoners, but expecting this some of us hid outside. It was almost a full day before the Indians came, but we were so scared and stupid we didn't go out. Even the Indians didn't know we were there, a few of us. They freed us and gave us food. I first took a bath, cleaned my body properly of blood and dirt, and went home. 

The nightmare of being a woman in a camp has imprisoned me ever since then. 

Hanufa Khatun 
We knew the Pakistan army would attack ordinary people. When the army crossed the river and slowly began to take over the towns, resistance began to give away and the partisans began to retreat. We were caught in a vicious circle. If we crossed the border, the Indian army might kill us for being Leftists, and if we stayed back the Pakistanis could kill us. But after a fight with the Pakistanis that we lost we retreated into the remote areas and hills. There we tended the wounded including my husband who had taken a bullet in his arm. When several others also became very ill and no medical help was found, I with another woman decided to go to the city to find a doctor. Just as we were entering the city, we were recognised by a group of collaborators who hated us for being women activists and grabbed us. My friend managed to run but they caught my sari and I couldn't escape.

Yet I was caught because these people hated my husband and his family. I was not political myself and I think I was caught because they couldn't get my husband. I had returned only to help heal my husband but they said I had fought in the resistance war. 

The gang members, all of whom belonged to the Islamic parties, first raped me and then left me tied up. I thought I was going to die, but I didn't. It was so strange to feel that way, as if my body belonged to someone else, as if another person had been raped. I didn't feel a thing that day. It was next day that it began to hurt all over. Such pain that I screamed like a butchered animal and my captors came and beat be some more. I bled again and blanked out.

After two days, I was taken to a Pakistan army camp. My captors told the army that I had fought against them, but I was bleeding and I fell to the ground and fainted. I think the Pakistani officers didn't believe them and I was later surprised to find one of them beaten up too. I got my first meal -- some bread and water -- after that I realised that I was a prisoner. 

I was made to do a lot of menial work, but nobody questioned me. I saw many local boys in the camp including some that had fought in the resistance. Sometimes in the evening, shots were fired. They said we were being killed. 

One of the women in the camp was the wife of a college teacher who had been killed and knew me. Her husband was a teacher of Islamic studies. She herself could speak Arabic and Urdu. The Pakistanis soon found that out and used her to talk to the prisoners to find out if India was helping us or not. One day she read the Quran to them and after that there was an argument about whether it was right to keep her inside. Finally they decided to let her go and she said that she wouldn't leave without me. These soldiers didn't know anything about my husband's politics and the captors had been discredited so her words helped me. I was released. 

When I reached home I found that my husband had died soon after my capture and so I left with my brother-in-law for India. We stayed as refugees and then through the party channel reached Kolkata. When I returned in January, my brother-in-law got into trouble again, and our family had to flee once more. 

Courtesy Afsan Chowdhury from his forthcoming book on the Liberation War. 

Independence Day Special


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## gromell

*Attack on Kalachara ​*
Lieutenant General M Harun-Ar-Rashid, BP 

On the occasion of the Victory day, I would like to narrate an operation - "Capture of Kalachara Tea Garden" which was carried out on 3rd August 1971 in which the Freedom Fighters displayed extraordinary valor and courage. 

At the time of revolt against Pakistan, 4th Battalion of the East Bengal Regiment popularly known as "Baby Tigers" was located at Brahmanbaria on the morning of 27th March 1971. The battalion was dispersed over a large area, from Jangalia at Comilla to Srimongal at Sylhet. The Pakistani authorities dispersed the battalion in the early days of March 1971 to prevent the battalion to take a unified action so that it would be easy for the Pakistani forces to deal with it piecemeal. 

After the revolt I was given the command of Delta Company. Initially we took up defense around Brahmanbaria. By second week of April the Company moved to Gangasagor - Ujanishar area (south of Akhaura) to stop the advance of Pakistani troops from Comilla to Brahmanbaria. Here the Company fought the famous battle of Gangasagor where Sainik Mostofa was awarded the highest gallantry award "Bir Shrestho". 

The Pakistan 53 Brigade (responsible for the area) continued their advance and by middle of May we were pushed out of the border. By beginning of June 1971 we established our base camp at Narsingarh just across Bangladesh border north of Agortala Airport. By this time strength of the company had risen to about six hundred. Our main occupation during June - July was to train the Freedom Fighters and send them to Bangladesh for specific operation. However regular forces also carried out limited operations like raids and ambushes.

During this period our action more or less remained limited to hit and run operation against fixed defences and other positions of the enemy. From the Narsingarh camp it was easy to infiltrate to Bangladesh and the great "Kalia Bill" east of Akhaura - Brahmanbaria rail line on which Pakistani forces had no control provided great flexibility to the Freedom Fighters. To prevent this the Pakistani decided to close the gap. By mid July a Pakistani Battalion (31 Panjab), located in the area, deployed two company with Battalion Headquarters at Akhaura, one company at Rajapur - Singerbil - Merashani area and another company plus at Kalachara Tea garden area. The whole deployment was supported by an artillery battery based at Akhaura which caused Mukti Bahini infiltration virtually to come to a stand still. On the other hand, the Indian authorities also imposed strict restrictions on any operations from Indian territory for fear of retaliation against Agortala airport as well as the town.. 

Due to series of setbacks at Gangasagor, Akhaura, Rajapur and serious shortage of logistic, . the morale of the Mukti Bahini was sagging. Some people had started deserting the camps. Only training activity at camps could not keep the fighters happy. As such I felt urgent need of undertaking some operations to raise the morale of my own troops as well as shatter the confidence of the enemy located there. After initial appreciation I decided to attack "Kalachara Tea Garden" as it would reopen route of infiltration for us. We concluded through reconnaissance that a full company of Pakistan Army with additional platoon of EPCAP was located in the area supported by an artillery battery at Akhaura.

As per normal military norms, more than battalion strength was required to attack the company position. Though I had about six hundred personnel in my camp I had only one company strength weapon and another platoon strength was equipped with assorted weapons from EPR, Mujahid and Ansars. However considering the situation I had no alternative but launch the attack. My main strength was the urge of rank and file to undertake some operation, which would shatter the confidence of the occupation forces in the area 

To meet up deficiencies in weapons I approached my neighboring camp commander Captain (later Major General) Golam Helal Morshed, BB for help who generously loaned me 2 -LMGs, 2 - 2" Mortars and a thousand rounds of LMG ammunition. He also agreed to establish a blocking position at Mukundupur area to block any enemy reinforcement from the north. 

Three sides facing the Indian border were extensively mined with anti personal mines. and covered with low wire entanglement and punjees. In view of these obstacles it was extremely difficult proposition to attack the position from south, east or north. Moreover, the Indian authorities also barred us from undertaking any operation from the Indian territory. Considering all these factors we had only one option i.e. to launch the attack from the west, which is rear of the defence. 

Due to the thickly vegetated tea garden area cross-country mobility was extremely restricted. The only route available was the supply route followed by the occupation forces. Still we decided to launch the attack from the west following the supply route. As we did not have any artillery/mortar support we decided to launch the attack at night during the hours of darkness. Considering the surprise factor, I decided to launch the attack on the morning of Tuesday i.e. 3rd August 1971 when the moon came up around 3:30 AM and we fixed the attack time for 3 AM. Final plan was that, one company plus platoon strength under me would launch the main attack from the west. A section strength under Havilder Halim would establish a blocking position on the home bank of the canal facing Merasani covering the railway bridge and block any reinforcement from the south. Captain Morshed was to establish another blocking position at Mukundapur to stop reinforcement from the north. We left a section under command Naib Subedar Rezaul at the base camp as reserve. This group was tasked to help either Havilder Halim's group or main attacking group in case of emergency. The local guides proved to be extremely valuable in reaching the objective in time and without difficulty. 

After briefing all the subordinate commanders I felt that every one was exited and enthusiastic about the attack and was really overwhelmed and surprised to see that no one of my men was concerned about the shortage of weapons and ammunition. Every one felt confident that the job could be done. However I was very sure that I was taking great risks but was determined to launch the attack and succeed. 

As per plan around 11 PM on 2 Aug we left the base camp at Narsingarh and infiltrated inside Bangladesh through Qasimpur. Taking a long detour we reached assembly area Shejamura at around 1:45 AM which was half an hour earlier than the schedule. Soon after moving out of assembly area on way the objective we landed up in problem as we could not see the objective area through the tea plants and also we failed to locate the designated forming up place. Luckily we could hear the sound of sentry changing and some people talking on low voice. At that moment we were only 15 to 20 yards away from the objective. We instantaneously shouted "Allahu Akbar" and "Joy Bangla". Soldiers formed up in assault line on the run and in no time they were on the objective. The defence was taken completely by surprise. They even could not call for artillery fire as the telephone line was cut off at the first instance. Some time later artillery fired few shots but on the eastern side of the objective. 

Soldiers overran the whole objective area by 3:45 AM. It was quick and like peace time attack exercise and the enemy did not have time to react. However the position towards the east (left forward platoon) opened up but they failed to realise the direction of attack. As such these fires were also not very effective. However after capturing the whole area, we realised that the area needs mopping-up as most of the bunkers were still intact. By around 4:30 AM it was clear light and we could see the whole area. Lots of dead bodies and injured were scattered around the area. Unfortunately we had to suffer some casualty during the mopping up process including my runner and wireless operator. 

Never the less in spite of the confusion by about 6 AM we were firmly in control. Both the blocking position at Merashani Railway Bridge and Mukundupur had to face severe pressure but they remained in their position till the last. Havilder Halim displayed extraordinary courage in holding the reinforcement group of about two-platoon strength with only one section. The attacking group suffered four injury and two dead. Havilder Halim's group suffered two serious injuries.

By all standards the attack was a complete success. We not only captured the area, we captured lot of weapons and ammunition including 2 MG1A3, 4 X 7.62 mm LMGs, 15 Rifles and approximately 20 thousands ammunition including 2000 grenades. As per normal military equation, attacking one company strength position with only one company plus troops is impossible, particularly with such shortage of arms and ammunitions and no indirect fire support. 

More so the defensive locations were located on higher grounds then the attacking troops. In case of loosing surprise and the enemy opening up before reaching the objective could have catastrophic result on the attacking troops. The determination of all ranks and their courage played significant role in achieving the success against all odds.

The courage and valour shown by a few soldiers are unprecedented particularly by Havildar Halim (Halim later became Shaheed during Chandrapur attack), Naib Subedar Gias, Naib Subedar Rezaul, Havildar Monir, Civilian Mizan, Abul Khair and Jasim (Gorilla). The Nation owes a lot to these valiant fighters for their gallant contribution in achieving freedom for the nation. 

The success of the attack gave tremendous boost to the morale of my troops. Pakistani forces never tried to reoccupy that area as such the area remain liberated till the end of "Liberation War". After capture of the area, route for infiltration of Gono Bahini to Bangladesh was reopened and remained so till the end. . The captured Pakistani soldiers informed that, they never knew that they were fighting against Muslims. The soldiers expressed their regret for fighting an unjust war. 

Though I did not inform any one in the hierarchy about the attack earlier, yet the news of the success spread to all concern within no time. The Indian authority was very alarmed as the firefight broke out dead at night. However as nothing was happening from their territory they felt assuaged. By receiving the news Number 2 Sector Commander Major (later Major General) Khaled Mosharrof along with "D" Sector Commander (Indian) Brigadier Pande visited the base camp in the evening. Though Brigadier Pande expressed dissatisfaction for launching the attack without co-ordination with the Indian authority, Major Khaled praised the troops and congratulated every one on the success. Later Number 2 Sector Head-quarters issued following message to Bangladesh Forces Headquarters at Calcutta about the operation. 

Source: Independence Day Special


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## gromell

*The story of six brothers​*Akbar Hossain

It was December 14, just two days ahead of Victory Day. 

Abul Halim, a government official of the then East Pakistan, was waiting at his home to receive his six muktijoddha sons, as the surrender of the Pakistani occupation forces became little more than a matter of time due to the strong resistance of the allied forces.

But on the night of December 14, four sons of Abdul Halim fell into the hands of the Pakistani army and never returned.

Two of them were shot dead in front of their Tejturi Bazar house and two are thought to have been killed inside Dhaka cantonment. 

The four martyrs could see ahead of them the independence of the country for which they had fought, but local collaborators informed the Pakistani army of the return of the freedom fighters to their house, leading to their capture and killing. 

If you go to 45/F Tejturi Bazar, residence of the late Abdul Halim, you will find a graveyard in front of the house where the dead bodies of Quamrul Hasan Ratan and Iqbal Hasan Shahar lie in eternal peace along with that of their friend and neighbour, Ataur Rahman Nehal. 

The dead bodies of Bakhtiar Hasan Makhon and Rakibul Hasan Laki were never found, and it is thought that they were killed inside Dhaka cantonment. 

The other two sons of Halim, Akhtier Hasan Milon and Fakhrul Hasan Khokan, were spared only because they were caught up in the streets on their way home to meet their brothers and did not return to the house until after December 16. 

The six brothers had gone to their village home in Brah-manbaria after March 25, and five of them crossed the Bangladesh border at the beginning of April. Before entering into India, the younger five brothers sent Makhon back to Dhaka to look after the family. After returning to Dhaka, he rejoined his working place. 

Makhon extended financial help to the freedom fighters and informed them about the secret plans of the Pakistani government. He also participated in the State Bank operation along with freedom fighters. By collecting explosives from freedom fighters, Makhon exploded a bomb on the 7th floor of the State Bank. As the news leaked, Makhon was caught by the Pakistani army, who tortured him inhumanly, before he was let go. He ultimately was killed by the Pakistani army on his way home to be reunited with his brothers.

Akhtier Hasan Milon, the second son Abul Halim, did not directly participate in the liberation war, but worked as an organiser under the Mujibnagar government. Milon came to his house after December 16 to find four of his brothers dead. 

"I did not cry after losing my four brothers, as they sacrificed their life for the cause of the nation," said Milon, now a businessman.

While talking to The Daily Star in front of the graveyard of his brothers, Milon expressed his disappointment with the current situation of the country. 

"We fought for the country not to make a few people rich. We thought the people of the country would live in a happy country after the independence. The desperate hunger of politicians for state power has brought misery to the common people. After 32 years of independence many people are still struggling to have two square meals a day," he observed with regret. 

But although currently there are many limitations in the country, he hopes the country would move to success one day. 

As Milon was a vice-president of Tejgaon Awami League, the Pakistani intelligence kept the house under strong watch.

"Our family was involved with politics for a long time, and I also actively participated in the 1969 movement. As soon as the Pakistani forces came to know that we five brothers had joined the liberation war, our house became a prime target," Milon told me.

After receiving special training in intelligence, Ratan, the third brother, came to Bangladesh along with his friend Nehal.

Ratan and Nehal were tasked with gathering information about Tejgaon Airport where Pakistani military forces had set up the camps with warplanes. Ratan and Nehal entered the airport in the guise of day-labourers with the help of one Nur Mohammed, a contractor of the airport. They regularly informed the freedom fighters about the war strategy and place of warplanes through hidden wireless. They also sent a map of the airport to freedom fighters, identifying the bunkers and installations of the Pakistani military forces.

In the beginning of December, allied forces made several air strikes on the Tejgoan Airport on the basis of information provided by Ratan and Nehal, which was absolutely accurate. This incident made the Pakistani forces suspicious. They engaged spies to unearth how the allied forces successfully made the air strikes. Pakistani forces suspected Ratan and Nehal for the air strikes and arrested them, but Ratan and Nehal managed to escape from their clutches.

Engineer Fakhrul Hasan Khokan was the fourth son of his parents. He played a significant role in setting up Shadhin Bangla Betar Kendra and building up of the Bangladesh Air Force. He was directly involved with some operations against the Pakistani army including the Vulta operation in Narsingdi and the Farmgate operation in Dhaka.

Laki and Shahar were engaged in guerrilla war in Dhaka city. Both of them participated in a guerrilla operation in Green Road Staff Colony and tried to kill Monem Khan, then governor of the East Pakistan and a collaborator.

Rakibul Hasan Laki, the fifth son, was a guerrilla fighter under the leadership of Mostafa Mohsin Montu. He participated in many courageous operations against the Pakistani army. 

At the tail-end of the liberation war, Laki's elder brother Ratan told him to come to their Tejturi Bazar residence on December 13. It was while coming to meet his brothers that the Pakistani army caught him, and Laki was killed in the graveyard of the Dhaka cantonment.

Iqbal Hasan Shahar, the youngest son of Abdul Halim, was a valiant freedom fighter. He was known as fighter Shahar to his co-freedom fighters. Shahar single-handedly had the ability to sow panic among the Pakistani soldiers in the southern part of Dhaka. He was involved with many daring guerrilla operation including the Siddirgonj power station operation. He was also killed at the hands of the Pakistani army.

Ratan, Shahar, and Nehal were buried in front of 45/F in Tejturi Bazar. These three freedom fighters were killed by the Pakistani army in the premises of their house in the night of December 14. 

After nine months of bloody war, Milon and Khokan came back to their house. Their father was speechless and became emotinal upon seeing them. 

Abdul Halim is no more in the world. During the nine months of the liberation war, his Tejpuri Bazar residence turned into a meeting place and safe-house for freedom fighters, at great personal risk to himself. He rejoiced in Bangladesh's freedom from his heart even after losing his four sons.


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## gromell

*Fall of 'Dacca' ​*
How a Paksitani military official saw the events leading to the surrender 

*Siddiq Salik, who was a PRO of Eastern Command, Pakistan Army witnessed the communications between the military in East Pakistan and the West Pakistan in th early days of December 1971 and wrote the accounts in a book called 'Witness to Surrender'. We publish excerpts from the last chapter called of his book. *

Major-General Rahim, who sustained minor injuries while fleeing from Chandpur, was convalescing at General Farman's residence after initial medical treatment. He lay in a secluded part of the house. Farman was with him. It was 12 December, the ninth day of all-out war. Their minds naturally turned to the most crucial subject of the day. Is Dacca defensible? They had a frank exchange of opinion. Rahim was convinced that cease-fire alone was the answer. Farman was surprised to hear this suggestion from Rahim, who had always advocated a prolonged and decisive war against India. He said with a tinge of irony, 'Bus daney moock gaey -- itni jaldi'. (Have you lost your nerve -- so soon!) Rahim insisted that it was already too late. 

During the discussion, Lieutenant-General Niazi and Major-General Jamshed entered the room to see the 'wounded General'. Rahim repeated the suggestion to Niazi, who showed no reaction. Till then the expectation of foreign help had not finally been extinguished. Avoiding the subject, Farman slipped into the adjoining room. 

After spending some time with Rahim, General Niazi walked into Farman's room and said, 'Then send the signal to Rawalpindi.' It appeared that he had accepted General Rahim's advice, as he had always done in peace-time. General Niazi wanted Governor House to send the cease-fire proposal to the President. Farman politely said that the requisite signal should go from Head-quarters, Eastern Command but General Niazi insisted, 'No, it makes little difference whether the signal goes from here or from there. I have, in fact, some important work elsewhere, you send it from here.' Before Farman could say 'no' again, Chief Secretary Muzaffar Husain entered the room and, overhearing the conversation, said to Niazi, 'You are right. The signal can be sent from here'. That resolved the conflict. 

What General Farman opposed was not the cease-fire proposal itself, but the authority to sponsor it. His earlier signal on the same subject had been rejected by Rawalpindi -- once bitten, twice shy. General Niazi disappeared to attend to his 'urgent work' while Muzaffar Husain drafted the historic note. It was seen by Farman and submitted to the Governor who approved the idea and sent it to the President the same evening (12 December). The note urged Yahya Khan 'to do everything possible to save the innocent lives.'

Next day the Governor and his principal aides waited for order from Rawalpindi, but the President seemed too busy to take a decision. The following day (14 December), for which a high level meeting was fixed, three Indian MIGs attacked Governor House at 11.15 a.m. and ripped the massive roof of the main hall. The Governor rushed to the air-raid shelter and scribbled out his resignation. Almost all the inmates of this seat of power survived the raid, except for some fishes in a decorative glass case. They restlessly tossed on the hot rubble and breathed their last. 

The Governor, his cabinet and West Pakistani civil servants moved, on 14 December, to the Hotel Intercontinental, which had been converted into a 'Neutral Zone' by the International Red Cross. The West Pakistani VIPs included the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Commissioner, Dacca Division, Provincial Secretaries and a few others. They 'dissociated' themselves in writing from the Government of Pakistan in order to gain admittance to the neutral zone, because anybody belonging to a belligerent state was not entitled to Red Cross protection. 

14 December was the last day of the East Pakistan Government. The debris of the Government and Governor House were scattered. The enemy had only to neutralize General Niazi and his disorganized forces to complete the Caesarian birth of Bangladesh. By now General Niazi, too, had lost all hope of foreign help. He slumped back into his earlier mood of despondency and hardly came out of his fortified cabin. He rode the chariot of time without controlling its speed or direction. 

He therefore conveyed the factual position to the President (who was also Commander-in-Chief) and keenly waited for instructions. In my presence he rang up General Hamid at night (13/14 December) and said, "Sir, I have sent certain proposals to the President. Could you kindly see that some action is taken on them soon.' The President of Pakistan and Chief Martial Law Adm-inistrator found time from his multifarious engagements and ordered the Governor and General Niazi on the following day 'to take all necessary measures to stop the fighting and preserve lives.' His unclassified signal to General Niazi said : 

'Governor's flash message to me refers. You have fought a heroic battle against overwhelming odds. The nation is proud of you and the world full of admiration. I have done all that is humanly possible to find an acceptable solution to the problem. You have now reached a stage where further resistance is no longer humanly possible nor will it serve any useful purpose. It will only lead to further loss of lives and destruction. You should now take all necessary measures to stop the fighting and preserve the lives to armed forces personnel, all those from West Pakistan and all loyal elements. Meanwhile I have moved UN to urge India to stop hostilities in East Pakistan forthwith and to guarantee the safety of armed forces and all other people who may be the likely target of miscreants.' 

This important telegram originated from Rawalpindi at 1330 hours on 14 December and arrived in Dacca at 1530 hours (East Pakistan Standard Time). 

General Niazi, the same evening, decided to initiate the necessary steps to obtain a cease-fire. As an intermediary, he first thought of Soviet and Chinese diplomats but finally chose Mr. Spivack, the US Consul-General in Dacca. General Niazi asked Major-General Farman Ali to accompany him to Mr. Spivack because, he, as Adviser to the Governor, had been dealing with foreign diplomats. When they reached Mr. Spivack's office Farman waited in the ante-room while Niazi went in. Farman could overhear General Niazi's loud unsubtle overtures to win Spivack's sympathies. When he thought that the 'friendship' had been established, he asked the American Consul to negotiate cease-fire terms with the Indians for him. Mr. Spivack, spurning all sentimentality, said in a matter of fact fashion, 'I cannot negotiate a cease-fire on your behalf. I can only send a message if you like.'

General Farman was called in to draft the message to the Indian Chief of Staff (Army), General Sam Manekshaw. He dictated a full-page note calling for an immediate case-fire, provided the following were guaranteed: the safety of Pakistan Armed Forces and of paramilitary forces; the protection of the loyal civilian population against reprisals by Mukti Bahini; and the safety and medical care of the sick and wounded. 

As soon as the draft was finalized, Mr. Spivack said, 'It will be transmitted in twenty minutes'. General Niazi and Farman returned to Eastern Command leaving Captain Niazi, the aide-de-camp to wait for the reply. He sat there till 10 pm but nothing happened. He was asked to check later, 'before going to bed' No reply was received during the night. 

In fact, Mr. Spivack did not transmit the message to General (later Field-Marshal) Manekshaw. He sent it to Washington, where the US Government tried to consult Yahya Khan before taking any action. But Yahya Khan was not available. He was drowning his sorrows somewhere. I learnt later that he had lost interest in the war as early as 3 December and never came to his office. 

Manekshaw replied to the note on 15 December saying that the cease fire would be acceptable and the safety of the personnel mentioned in the note would be guaranteed provided the Pakistan Army 'surrenders to my advancing troops'. He also gave the radio frequency on which Calcutta, the seat of Indian Eastern Command, could be contacted for co-ordination of details. 

Manekshaw's message was sent to Rawalpindi. The Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Army replied by the evening of 15 December saying, inter alia, 'Suggest you accept the cease-fire on these terms as they meet your requirements..... However, it will be a local arrangement between two commanders. If it conflicts with the solution being sought at the United Nations, it will be held null and void.'

The temporary cease-fire was agreed from 5 pm on 15 December till 9 am the following day. It was later extended to 3 pm, 16 December, to allow more time to finalize cease-fire arrangements. While General Hamid 'suggested' to Niazi that he accept the cease-fire terms, the latter took it as 'approval' and asked his Chief of Staff, Brigadier Baqar, to issue the necessary orders to the formations. A full-page signal commended the 'heroic fight' by the troops and asked the local commanders to contact their Indian counterparts to arrange the cease-fire. It did not say 'surrender' except in the following sentence, 'Unfortunately, it also involves the laying down of arms'. 

It was already midnight (15/16 December) when the signal was sent out. About the same time, Lieutenant-Colonel Liaquat Bokhari, Officer Commanding, 4 Aviation Squadron, was summoned for his last briefing. He was told to fly out eight West Pakistani nurses and twenty-eight families, the same night, to Akyab (Burma) across the Chittagong Hill Tracts. Lieutenant-Colonel Liaquat received the orders with his usual calm, so often seen during the war. His helicopters, throughout the twelve days of all-out war, were the only means available to Eastern Command for the transport of men, ammunition and weapons to the worst hit areas. Their odyssey of valour is so inspiring that it cannot be summed up here. 

Two helicopters left in the small hours of 16 December while the third flew in broad daylight. They carried Major-General Rahim Khan and a few others, but the nurses were left behind because they 'could not be collected in time' from their hostel. All the helicopters landed safely in Burma and the passengers eventually reached Karachi. 

Back in Dacca, the fateful hour drew closer. When the enemy advancing from the Tangail side came near Tongi, he was received by our tank fire. Presuming that the Tongi-Dacca road was well defended, the Indians side-stepped to a neglected route towards Manikganj from where Colonel Fazle Hamid had retreated in haste as he had from Khulna on 6 December. The absence of Fazle Hamid's troops allowed the enemy free access to Dacca city from the north-west. 

Brigadier Bashir, who was responsible for the defence of the Provincial Capital (excluding the cantonment), learnt on the evening of 15 December that the Manekganj-Dacca road was totally unprotected. He spent the first half of the night in gathering scattered elements of EPCAF, about a company strength, and pushed them under Major Salamat to Mirpur bridge, just outside the city. The commando troops of the Indian Army, who were told by the Mukti Bahini that the bridge was unguarded, drove to the city in the small hours of 16 December. By then Major Salamat's boys were in position and they blindly fired towards the approaching column. They claimed to have killed a few enemy troops and captured two Indian jeeps. 

Major-General Nagra of 101 Communication Zone, who was following the advance commando troops, held back on the far side of the bridge and wrote a chit for Lieutenant-General Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi. It said : 'Dear Abdullah, I am at Mirpur Bridge. Send your representative.'

Major-General Jamshed, Major-General Farman and Rear-Admiral Shariff were with General Niazi when he received the note at about 9 am Farman, who still stuck to the message for 'cease-fire negotiations', said 'Is he (Nagra) the negotiating team?' General Niazi did not comment. The obvious question was whether he was to be received or resisted. He was already on the threshold of Dacca. 

Major-General Farman asked General Niazi, 'Have you any reserves?' Niazi again said nothing. Rear-Admiral Shariff, translating it in Punjabi, said : 'Kuj palley hai'? (Have you anything in the kitty?) Niazi looked to Jamshed, the defender of Dacca, who shook his head sideways to signify 'nothing'. 'If that is the case, then go and do what he (Nagra) asks,' Farman and Shariff said almost simultaneously. 

General Niazi sent Major-General Jamshed to receive Nagra. He asked our troops at Mirpur Bridge to respect the cease-fire and allow Nagra a peaceful passage. The Indian General entered Dacca with a handful of soldiers and a lot of pride. That was the virtual fall of Dacca. It fell quietly like a heart patient. Neither were its limbs chopped nor its body hacked. It just ceased to exist as an independent city. Stories about the fall of Singapore, Paris or Berlin were not repeated here.


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## M.AKRAM NIAZI

Advantages of Creation of Bangladesh to Pakistan.


M.Akram Khan Niazi, Pakistan

Usually smaller Parts of a country having extraordinary resources tries to break away from the mainland to take the maximum advantage of their resources for their advantage, and to protect themselves from the drain of their resources to majority or dominant section of the country, but in case of Pakistan Majority Part on the basis of population, which was also having scare resources, separated from the other part, Generally, it is regarded as an unfortunate event for Pakistan by people of Pakistan, and no Pakistani tries to see other side of the coin of that event for analysis of the benefits achieved to them by this event 

The reason of this is that all literature about that event has been written by those who were living in East Pakistan and they suffered personally by this event, due to which they always indicate their miseries and losses and forget to explain the advantages of that event to whole Pakistani Nation. Therefore, it is necessary to see the real results of this event. With the separation of East Pakistan, following advantages were achieved to Pakistan.

1. Economical 

Separation of Bangladesh was as much beneficial for Pakistan as separation of Pakistan from India.

As the part of world in which East Pakistan was situated, was having limited resources, and many poor areas of subcontinent are situated in that part, such as Bihar , Assam ,West Bengal, Burma and Bhutan. Technically it was not in the interest of Pakistan, to keep itself attached with East Bengal(Historically one of the most poorest area of subcontinent) .In fact Pakistan after separation saved its future from economic burden of poverty ridden Bangladesh,

 Huge Population and scare resources of East Bengal were clear Indicators, that there will be no extraordinary progress in future in that province and no sensible person may think that it was valuable for Pakistan to keep itself attached with most poverty ridden part of this region. 

Being a part of East Pakistan, rulers were forcing to West Pakistani citizens to become a market of East Pakistans low quality Products, such as Tea, Pans and jute on artificial high prices on the name of Patriotism, while now such type high quality Products may be purchased from other countries on very low prices.

After separation of Bangladesh, it was possible for Pakistan to make its economic policies without having any concern of interests of a far situated part.

Pakistan Economic Managers relieved themselves from the Economic restrictions due to economic interest of East Bengal. That situation was as much harmful, as today Pakistan start to take care of the economic interest of Myanmar or West Bengal; it is certain that such type situation will be disastrous for Pakistan.

With the analysis of economic situation of present day Pakistan and Bangladesh, shows that Pakistan GDP and Foreign currency reserves are double than that of Bangladesh and Electricity production is also 5 times more. It is obvious, that separation was much more in the interest of Pakistan, Because, the only solution of the Disparity between two parts, was to serve the Bangladesh with the resources of West Pakistan. Otherwise there was no other magic solution to address that disparity.

It is still obvious that, there is still no charm in having trade links with countries of South Asia, because it is not in the economic interest of Pakistan, instead of that we should focus on rich and developed areas such as China, Middle East, Far East, Europe and USA.

2. Political Advantages.

Due to extraordinary majority of Bengali Population, it was not possible for any province of West Pakistan to become equivalent to that majority any time in future, and it was certain that representatives of Provinces of West Pakistan will always remain in opposition in assemblies as per modern time democracy principles, this was really a frightening situation and the People of Pakistan were going to be ruled by any ethnocentric Bengali Leader or by any Bengali Military dictator for ever.

Due to Bengali nationalism and ethnocentrism, on the basis of which People of Bangladesh were victimizing the Urdu Speaking Muslim refugees from India and that is still continue, and their Ethnic Cleansing with aborigines people of CHT, were clearly indicating that people of that area were not sincere and aware of the Ideology of Pakistan, in fact attachment of Pakistan with East Bengal was self deception and nothing else.

Due to agitation style and different culture, the politicians of East Pakistan were always blaming Pakistan for their problems and exploitations, while people of Pakistan were worried about deteriorating condition of people of East Pakistan due to poverty and natural disasters, and they were too much fed up with that situation as they were seeing no end of all this, as this thing was also harming the Basic Ideology of Pakistan, and therefore to get rid of this situation and to avoid baseless allegations it was necessary to separate that area(East Bengal) from Pakistan, and this was the main reason that West Pakistani Military Personnel, even having capability for defending that part decided very easily and conveniently to end their any relation with that land on the basis of the facts that they were tired of all those messy affairs.

 Due to separation of East Pakistan, Pakistan saved itself and its ideology from baseless criticism of Bengalese Politicians, and now on real grounds they are blaming each other for their problems.
With the separation of Bangladesh, Pakistan Islamic Ideology became more prominent with the introduction of Islamic laws and future scenario of Pakistan became much more firmed with the conversion of population ratio to 98 % Muslims, while with Bangladesh, presence of Huge Hindu minority was having adverse effects on the ideological progress of the country.

3. Security Advantages: 

As East Pakistan was situated in the abdomen and inside the body of India and thousand miles away from West Pakistan, India was using this factor for blackmailing and pressurizing Pakistan from the beginning, In fact burden of huge population of East Bengal was loaded on West Pakistan to make Pakistan a crippled and failed state by Indian National Congress. India used that part as a button for keeping under pressure to Pakistan in 1947, in war of 1965 and again in 1970 with policy to occupy large chunk of land in East Pakistan. Due to 1000 miles distance between both parts and that also filled by enemy land, in such worst scenario even maintaining contacts between security forces and their mobility was in fact a difficult, expensive and life taking task, accompanied with wastage of huge resources, ultimately resulting in weakening of Defense forces and economy of the country. By separation of East Bengal, Pakistan was able to get rid of its weak point which was a most easy and favorite target of India. Due to that now Pakistan Defense is more strong and protected as compared to vulnerable and weak position before 1971. 

4. Social Advantages:

With the separation of Bengal flow of population from densely populated Bangladesh to parts of West Pakistan stopped, which was a good development for the culture and social set up of West Pakistan.

Due to two national languages, Cultural evolution of the people of West Pakistan was stopped and their local languages were dying, with the separation of Bangladesh, that process was stopped.

After separation of Bangladesh huge jobs opportunities were raised for people of different provinces of West Pakistan in both Federal and Provincial Governments. Due to elimination of share of people of Bengalese in civilian Jobs, which resulted in an increase in participation of local population in the affairs of country, by this their sense of depriving was minimized.

People of Bengal are usually dark skinned, while people of West Pakistan were of Fair Skinned, due to continuous flow of Bengalese from East Bengal was creating racial discomfort and fears in the mind of local populations, that by this they will become minority in their own provinces, specially in the case when Federal Government was encouraging Bengalese to rehabilitate in West Pakistan, By separation of East Bengal this process of migration was also stopped.

This is the reason that after separation of East Pakistan, Mr. Mujibur Rehman was immediately released by President Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and he never expressed any regret about creation of Bangladesh. 

Similarly once Prersident Zia-ul-Haq commented that freedom fighters of Bangladesh were in fact the freedom fighters of Pakistan, Now Bangladesh is a free country and Pakistan is also a free country. 

It is crystal clear from all above mentioned facts that separation from Problematic East Bengal created new life and new freedom in Pakistan. 

Written By M.Akram Khan Niazi.
Karachi,Pakistan


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