# Indonesia orders 42 Rafale jets from France



## RangeMaster

PARIS, Feb 10 (Reuters) - Indonesia will order 42 Rafale fighter jets, French Defence Minister Florence Parly, who is currently on a trip to the Asian country, confirmed on Thursday.

"It's official: Indonesia orders 42 Rafales", she said in a Tweet, saying the order would make Indonesia the second state in the region to rely on the jet produced by Dassault Aviation (AM.PA).

Dassault Aviation said the deal marked the start of a long-term partnership and would allow it to rapidly step up its presence in Indonesia.

Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.com
￼
Register
The deal comes as Paris, which views itself as a global maritime power, seeks to expand its geopolitical ties in the Indo-Pacific to react to the creation of a new strategic alliance between the U.S., Britain and Australia.

"Indonesia also commits to cooperation with our industry in the sector of submarines," added Parly, referring to an area deemed as particularly sensitive after Australia last year cancelled a multi-billion submarine deal with Paris, causing a major diplomatic rift. read more

"Our strategic partnership will benefit from the deepening of our defence relations," added Parly, commenting on the deal with Indonesia.

Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.com
￼
Register
Reporting by Tassilo Hummel; Editing by Sudip Kar-Gupta















France seals $8.1 billion deal with Indonesia to sell 42 Rafale jets


Indonesia will order 42 Rafale fighter jets in a $8.1 billion deal, France's defence ministry said on Thursday, as part of a series of agreements also including submarine development and ammunition, making Jakarta the biggest French arms client in the region.




www.reuters.com













L’Indonésie s’équipe du Rafale - Press kits de Dassault Aviation


En présence de la ministre française des Armées, Florence Parly, et du ministre indonésien de la Défense, Prabowo Subianto, le Président-Directeur général de Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, et l'Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Chef de l'agence d'acquisition du ministère indonésien de la...




www.dassault-aviation.com





@Indos

Congratulations Indonesian brothers.

Reactions: Like Like:
8 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Titanium100

Indo defense minister finally won over the finance minister or convinced her


----------



## Indos

RangeMaster said:


> PARIS, Feb 10 (Reuters) - Indonesia will order 42 Rafale fighter jets, French Defence Minister Florence Parly, who is currently on a trip to the Asian country, confirmed on Thursday.
> 
> "It's official: Indonesia orders 42 Rafales", she said in a Tweet, saying the order would make Indonesia the second state in the region to rely on the jet produced by Dassault Aviation (AM.PA).
> 
> Dassault Aviation said the deal marked the start of a long-term partnership and would allow it to rapidly step up its presence in Indonesia.
> 
> Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.com
> ￼
> Register
> The deal comes as Paris, which views itself as a global maritime power, seeks to expand its geopolitical ties in the Indo-Pacific to react to the creation of a new strategic alliance between the U.S., Britain and Australia.
> 
> "Indonesia also commits to cooperation with our industry in the sector of submarines," added Parly, referring to an area deemed as particularly sensitive after Australia last year cancelled a multi-billion submarine deal with Paris, causing a major diplomatic rift. read more
> 
> "Our strategic partnership will benefit from the deepening of our defence relations," added Parly, commenting on the deal with Indonesia.
> 
> Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.com
> ￼
> Register
> Reporting by Tassilo Hummel; Editing by Sudip Kar-Gupta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France seals $8.1 billion deal with Indonesia to sell 42 Rafale jets
> 
> 
> Indonesia will order 42 Rafale fighter jets in a $8.1 billion deal, France's defence ministry said on Thursday, as part of a series of agreements also including submarine development and ammunition, making Jakarta the biggest French arms client in the region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L’Indonésie s’équipe du Rafale - Press kits de Dassault Aviation
> 
> 
> En présence de la ministre française des Armées, Florence Parly, et du ministre indonésien de la Défense, Prabowo Subianto, le Président-Directeur général de Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, et l'Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Chef de l'agence d'acquisition du ministère indonésien de la...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dassault-aviation.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Indos



False

42 is just MOU, while effective contract is just 6 planes

You can see comment by Prabowo himself, he needs to convince our Planning Minister and Finance Minister for that additional 42 planes.

I have stated many times here that MRCA contract cannot exceed 1.1 billion USD for 2020-2024 period, and it is proven that effective contract is only for 6 planes


Source coming from Prabowo and Parly statement, not interpretation of the media. Stress the world Parly said " Will Order" not Ordered

-----------------------------------------------

ANTARA is Government News Agency

Ministry of Defense signs a contract to purchase six Dassault Rafale aircraft​Thursday, 10 February 2022 14:01 WIB









Kemhan teken kontrak pembelian enam Pesawat Dassault Rafale


Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan) menandatangani kontrak kerja sama pembelian enam pesawat tempur generasi 4,5, Dassault Rafale, buatan ...




www.antaranews.com

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## RangeMaster

Possible Indian order now pushed beyond 2028. Croatia, UAE, Indonesia in line.



Indos said:


> False
> 
> 42 is just MOU, while effective contract is just 6 planes
> 
> You can see comment by Prabowo himself, he needs to convince our Planning Minister and Finance Minister for that additional 42 planes.
> 
> I have stated many times here that MRCA contract cannot exceed 1.1 billion USD for 2020-2024 period, and it is proven that effective contract is only for 6 planes
> 
> 
> Source coming from Prabowo and Parly statement, not interpretation of the media. Stress the world Parly said " Will Order" not Ordered
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> ANTARA is Government News Agency
> 
> Ministry of Defense signs a contract to purchase six Dassault Rafale aircraft​Thursday, 10 February 2022 14:01 WIB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kemhan teken kontrak pembelian enam Pesawat Dassault Rafale
> 
> 
> Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan) menandatangani kontrak kerja sama pembelian enam pesawat tempur generasi 4,5, Dassault Rafale, buatan ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.antaranews.com



Yep.... Only six for now.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indos

Titanium100 said:


> Indo defense minister finally won over the finance minister or convinced her



Not yet 

Finance Minister only approve 1.1 billion USD for MRCA program (2020-2024), and that is the amount of effective contract signed by Prabowo Today for 6 planes and associated equipment and training.


----------



## cssniper

Rafale is a nice plane, a bit of expansive though...
It can't confront the F-35 from Australia, so maybe Indonesia should get some Su-75?

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Char

What will the neighbors of Indonesia buy?


----------



## Indos

cssniper said:


> Rafale is a nice plane, a bit of expansive though...
> It can't confront the F-35 from Australia, so maybe Indonesia should get some Su-75?



For challenging F 35, I believe it is the task of KF21/IFX program.



Char said:


> What will the neighbors of Indonesia buy?



Australia and Singapore are ordering F35, while Malaysia will just order LCA plane, possibly TA 50 Golden Eagle or FA50 variant.

This Rafale order for just 6 planes is for our F5 squadron who previously has 12 F 5 planes, all are already grounded.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Titanium100

Indos said:


> For challenging F 35, I believe it is the task of KF21/IFX program.
> 
> 
> 
> Australia and Singapore are ordering F35, while Malaysia will just order LCA plane, possibly TA 50 Golden Eagle or FA50 variant.
> 
> This Rafale order for just 6 planes is for our F5 squadron who previously has 12 F 5 planes, all are already grounded.


The fact that the US doesn't wanna sell F-35 to muslim states says alot about there fear about muslim countries... They have this strange feeling that they will overtake them which is based on fallacies just because the muslims dominated the world from 650-1923 doesn't mean they still have it in them.. They have been over focussed on them unnecessarily..

Rome never came back to power again why should the muslims? In fact no empire has...

The are unfortunately our biggest believers while these states don't believe in themselves to the extent as they do...... They also have same kind of feelings about the japanese but to a lesser extent


----------



## redtom

They have no choice. Their biggest enemies are America's Allies. American weapons are useless when war breaks out. They can't fall over to China or Russia, their economies are too weak to withstand the risk of US sanctions.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## .King.

Titanium100 said:


> The fact that the US doesn't wanna sell F-35 to muslim states says alot about there fear about muslim countries... They have this strange feeling that they will overtake them which is based on fallacies just because the muslims dominated the world from 650-1923 doesn't mean they still have it in them.. They have been over focussed on them unnecessarily..
> 
> Rome never came back to power again why should the muslims? In fact no empire has...
> 
> The are unfortunately our biggest believers while these states don't believe in themselves to the extent as they do.. What can I say I am honored.... They also have same kind of feelings about the japanese but to a lesser extent


I doubt they based anything on religion. More likely that they didnt want to hand top of the line jets to less trustworthy countries.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indos

Indos said:


> Not yet
> 
> Finance Minister only approve 1.1 billion USD for MRCA program (2020-2024), and that is the amount of effective contract signed by Prabowo Today for 6 planes and associated equipment and training.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Titanium100

.King. said:


> I doubt they based anything on religion. More likely that they didnt want to hand top of the line jets to less trustworthy countries.



Exactly and you are only doubtful and untrusting about these you view and see as potential competitors even if they sre not direct competition but you see these as potential competitors.. They never stopped believing


----------



## .King.

Titanium100 said:


> Exactly and you are only doubtful and untrusting about these you view and see as potential competitors even if they sre not direct competition but you see these as potential competitors..


What? The US sees any sale to them as liability, not threat. I dont know where you are getting this from.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indos

.King. said:


> What? The US sees any sale to them as liability, not threat. I dont know where you are getting this from.



How come it become a liability ?, explain.....


----------



## luciferdd

Why not more KFX21 but rafale?Do Indonisia need them badly?


----------



## Indos

luciferdd said:


> Why not more KFX21 but rafale?Do Indonisia need them badly?



Yup, for our previous F 5 squadron ( 12 F 5 planes have been grounded). KF21 is a long term program, 2026 is the expected completion of development of first block, but first block is just for air superiority role, to have multi role capability, the development must be extended until 2028. And I believe Indonesia only wants to buy the multirole variant (block 2 variant) and very possible block 3 if the program is successful.

So it still long time to acquire KF21/IFX planes while the situation Today we have to fil our F 5 squadron as soon as possible with newer planes, currently other squadron borrow 3 SU 30 for that F5 squadron.

The deal is also quite extensive that involve submarine building program (Naval Group) and ammunition production in Indonesia (Nexter), also some R&D program as well.

-----------------------------------

Need to remain that the order is just for 6 planes, I believe the number will not likely exceed 16 if subsequent order is executed,

Ministry of Defense signs purchase contract for six Dassault Rafale aircraft​Thursday, 10 February 2022 14:01 WIB









Kemhan teken kontrak pembelian enam Pesawat Dassault Rafale


Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan) menandatangani kontrak kerja sama pembelian enam pesawat tempur generasi 4,5, Dassault Rafale, buatan ...




www.antaranews.com


----------



## Indos




----------



## Indos

luciferdd said:


> Why not more KFX21 but rafale?Do Indonisia need them badly?



More addition, KF21 and Rafale use the same missiles for AA engagement ( Meteor and IRST). This acquisition IMO is also good so that we can assure there will likely be no obstacle to acquire those missiles where Meteor comes from France. We have good relation as well with Germany.

This can also pave the way to allow us order Aster missile for our Naval program without the need to buy France Naval platform ( vessel )


----------



## MultaniGuy

RangeMaster said:


> PARIS, Feb 10 (Reuters) - Indonesia will order 42 Rafale fighter jets, French Defence Minister Florence Parly, who is currently on a trip to the Asian country, confirmed on Thursday.
> 
> "It's official: Indonesia orders 42 Rafales", she said in a Tweet, saying the order would make Indonesia the second state in the region to rely on the jet produced by Dassault Aviation (AM.PA).
> 
> Dassault Aviation said the deal marked the start of a long-term partnership and would allow it to rapidly step up its presence in Indonesia.
> 
> Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.com
> ￼
> Register
> The deal comes as Paris, which views itself as a global maritime power, seeks to expand its geopolitical ties in the Indo-Pacific to react to the creation of a new strategic alliance between the U.S., Britain and Australia.
> 
> "Indonesia also commits to cooperation with our industry in the sector of submarines," added Parly, referring to an area deemed as particularly sensitive after Australia last year cancelled a multi-billion submarine deal with Paris, causing a major diplomatic rift. read more
> 
> "Our strategic partnership will benefit from the deepening of our defence relations," added Parly, commenting on the deal with Indonesia.
> 
> Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.com
> ￼
> Register
> Reporting by Tassilo Hummel; Editing by Sudip Kar-Gupta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France seals $8.1 billion deal with Indonesia to sell 42 Rafale jets
> 
> 
> Indonesia will order 42 Rafale fighter jets in a $8.1 billion deal, France's defence ministry said on Thursday, as part of a series of agreements also including submarine development and ammunition, making Jakarta the biggest French arms client in the region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L’Indonésie s’équipe du Rafale - Press kits de Dassault Aviation
> 
> 
> En présence de la ministre française des Armées, Florence Parly, et du ministre indonésien de la Défense, Prabowo Subianto, le Président-Directeur général de Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, et l'Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Chef de l'agence d'acquisition du ministère indonésien de la...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dassault-aviation.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Indos
> 
> Congratulations Indonesian brothers.


Congratulations, if true.

But the West can never be trusted.

Pakistan learned the hard way about this.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Farhan Bohra

Indos said:


> Yup, for our previous F 5 squadron ( 12 F 5 planes have been grounded). KF21 is a long term program, 2026 is the expected completion of development of first block, but first block is just for air superiority role, to have multi role capability, the development must be extended until 2028. And I believe Indonesia only wants to buy the multirole variant (block 2 variant) and very possible block 3 if the program is successful.
> 
> So it still long time to acquire KF21/IFX planes while the situation Today we have to fil our F 5 squadron as soon as possible with newer planes, currently other squadron borrow 3 SU 30 for that F5 squadron.
> 
> The deal is also quite extensive that involve submarine building program (Naval Group) and ammunition production in Indonesia (Nexter), also some R&D program as well.
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
> Need to remain that the order is just for 6 planes, I believe the number will not likely exceed 16 if subsequent order is executed,
> 
> Ministry of Defense signs purchase contract for six Dassault Rafale aircraft​Thursday, 10 February 2022 14:01 WIB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kemhan teken kontrak pembelian enam Pesawat Dassault Rafale
> 
> 
> Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan) menandatangani kontrak kerja sama pembelian enam pesawat tempur generasi 4,5, Dassault Rafale, buatan ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.antaranews.com


This is totally untrue, I would trust the Dassault press release more.



> In the presence of the French Minister of the Armed Forces, Florence Parly, and the Indonesian Minister of Defence, Prabowo Subianto, the Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, and the Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Head of Defence Facilities Agency of the Indonesian Ministry of Defence, signed the contract for the acquisition by Indonesia of 42 latest-generation Rafale aircraft, at a ceremony held today in Jakarta.











Indonesia purchases the Rafale - Press kits


In the presence of the French Minister of the Armed Forces and the Indonesian Minister of Defence, the Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, and the Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Head of Defence Facilities Agency of the Indonesian Ministry of Defence, signed the contract for...




www.dassault-aviation.com





Also, it means that Indonesia said bye-bye to KFX. Otherwise, Operating two 4.5 gen MRCA be a logistical nightmare.


----------



## Indos

Farhan Bohra said:


> This is totally untrue, I would trust the Dassault press release more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indonesia purchases the Rafale - Press kits
> 
> 
> In the presence of the French Minister of the Armed Forces and the Indonesian Minister of Defence, the Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, and the Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Head of Defence Facilities Agency of the Indonesian Ministry of Defence, signed the contract for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dassault-aviation.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it means that Indonesia said bye-bye to KFX. Otherwise, Operating two 4.5 gen MRCA be a logistical nightmare.



It is normal for Dassault to say that MOU as contract, as it can elevate their stock price, just some hours Dassault stock price rises to 4 % after this announcement.

Same like FREEM acquisition which is announced by Fincanteri, it is actually LOI not an effective contract. Defense Minister is not President by the way, and his action has boundaries.

Here the direct word of Indonesian Defense Minister, 6 planes order for effective contract while the rest is still planning and it look like MOU/LOI level.






More if you are not sure, these are another Indonesia respected Media. Ask Malaysian member here to translate @Nan Yang


----------



## Binod

Indos said:


> How come it become a liability ?, explain.....


It's more like technical information can be shared with the rivals of USA.


----------



## Indos

The deal is also related to another Indonesia defense company, Pindad, who will produce the Rafale ammunition, 105 mm and 120 mm for tank ammunition ( cooperation with Nexter), and also it is related to submarine building cooperation between Naval Group and PT PAL Indonesia, and also cooperation between Thales and Indonesian electronic company, PT LEN Industry for Military satellite ( which likely be build by Airbus-another France company)


----------



## monitor

Indos said:


> False
> 
> 42 is just MOU, while effective contract is just 6 planes
> 
> You can see comment by Prabowo himself, he needs to convince our Planning Minister and Finance Minister for that additional 42 planes.
> 
> I have stated many times here that MRCA contract cannot exceed 1.1 billion USD for 2020-2024 period, and it is proven that effective contract is only for 6 planes
> 
> 
> Source coming from Prabowo and Parly statement, not interpretation of the media. Stress the world Parly said " Will Order" not Ordered
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> ANTARA is Government News Agency
> 
> Ministry of Defense signs a contract to purchase six Dassault Rafale aircraft​Thursday, 10 February 2022 14:01 WIB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kemhan teken kontrak pembelian enam Pesawat Dassault Rafale
> 
> 
> Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan) menandatangani kontrak kerja sama pembelian enam pesawat tempur generasi 4,5, Dassault Rafale, buatan ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.antaranews.com


Not just Rafale but French-Indonesian deal has following aspects as well. ~ 2x Scorpene Class Submarines. ~ MRO facility for Rafale. ~ Military Satellite. ~ Local Munitions production. ~ Aircrew training & 2x full mission simulators.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indos

Binod said:


> It's more like technical information can be shared with the rivals of USA.



Actually US Foreign Department has agreed to sell F 15 EX to Indonesia, it is another breaking news, but of course need Congress approval.

Indonesia and USA has common interest now in SCS, we are strategic partner already.


----------



## Bleek

MultaniGuy said:


> Congratulations, if true.
> 
> But the West can never be trusted.
> 
> Pakistan learned the hard way about this.


No one can be trusted

Not even who you may be thinking we can

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indos

Indos said:


> I have stated many times here that MRCA contract cannot exceed 1.1 billion USD for 2020-2024 period, and it is proven that effective contract is only for 6 planes



This deal shows what I have stated many times since about beginning of 2021 is true. We dont know the actual deal for 6 Rafale planes, some say 600 million USD while other said 1.1 billion USD (Alman Helvast/ former Jane Defense journalist), but the figure cannot exceed that 1.1 billion USD. 

Prabowo has inserted proposal about Rafale and Freem acquisition to both Bapenas and SMI, but so far those people havent given the green light yet. In April the situation will be clearer.

------------------------------------

*This my explanation to Indonesian member in Defense Hub*

Have you seen the Air Force plan meeting video in early 2021 ? I have posted the video some months ago here.

The truth is Air Force only has 8 billion USD foreign loan approval, and MRCA is only for 1.6 billion USD foreign loan (approved by Bapenas), later SMI slash it into 1.1 billion USD. That is for entire 2020-2024 period.

Total foreign loan for defense acquisition program is around 18 billion USD for 2020-2024 period which include all branches-approved by Bappenas but still has the chance to be slashed by Finance Minister. The program that has already got approval by SMI is just 5.8 billion USD foreign loan funded so far and according to AH the RMP given by SMI in 2022 budget is only able to cover some portion of that 5.8 billion USD foreign loan approval programs.

---------------------------------------------------

SU 35 budget being used for this order is just statement made by France media. Actually I dont know whether Finance Minister has allocated budget for Su 35 acquisition ? If there is program that is not absorbed within one fiscal year, it can be used for the next year by Defense Minister that will be included in next year defense budget. There is definition like SAL ( sisa anggaran lebih) and there is flexibility in using it.

---------------------------------------------------

Bappenas; Planning Minister
SMI: Sri Mulyani Indrawati ( Indonesia Finance Minister )


----------



## shayyman

*2016: 36 Rafale for 8.8 billion USD (India)
2021: 42 Rafale for 8.1 Billion USD (Indonesia)

It's alright. Who's doing the maths.*


----------



## applesauce

shayyman said:


> *2016: 36 Rafale for 8.8 billion USD (India)
> 2021: 42 Rafale for 8.1 Billion USD (Indonesia)
> 
> It's alright. Who's doing the maths.*



indians of course. they could have gotten the rafale for half price and some tot. instead they got greedy and wanted to put production and full tot in india, demanding france be responsible for planes made in india while giving them no control over indian quality.

the french said no. as any sane manufacturer would.

Then later on india is forced to panic buy planes after getting stuffed by pakistan and later china. so now they got the rafale with zero tot and much more expensive than the f-35. but i guess they still got their imagination where every new plane they get is the greatest invention since the wheel regardless of what happens in real life.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Whizzack

Indos said:


> This deal shows what I have stated many times since about beginning of 2021 is true. We dont know the actual deal for 6 Rafale planes, some say 600 million USD while other said 1.1 billion USD (Alman Helvast/ former Jane Defense journalist), but the figure cannot exceed that 1.1 billion USD.
> 
> Prabowo has inserted proposal about Rafale and Freem acquisition to both Bapenas and SMI, but so far those people havent given the green light yet. In April the situation will be clearer.
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> *This my explanation to Indonesian member in Defense Hub*
> 
> Have you seen the Air Force plan meeting video in early 2021 ? I have posted the video some months ago here.
> 
> The truth is Air Force only has 8 billion USD foreign loan approval, and MRCA is only for 1.6 billion USD foreign loan (approved by Bapenas), later SMI slash it into 1.1 billion USD. That is for entire 2020-2024 period.
> 
> Total foreign loan for defense acquisition program is around 18 billion USD for 2020-2024 period which include all branches-approved by Bappenas but still has the chance to be slashed by Finance Minister. The program that has already got approval by SMI is just 5.8 billion USD foreign loan funded so far and according to AH the RMP given by SMI in 2022 budget is only able to cover some portion of that 5.8 billion USD foreign loan approval programs.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> SU 35 budget being used for this order is just statement made by France media. Actually I dont know whether Finance Minister has allocated budget for Su 35 acquisition ? If there is program that is not absorbed within one fiscal year, it can be used for the next year by Defense Minister that will be included in next year defense budget. There is definition like SAL ( sisa anggaran lebih) and there is flexibility in using it.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Bappenas; Planning Minister
> SMI: Sri Mulyani Indrawati ( Indonesia Finance Minister )



Hi Indos, just curious.. but why do you seem so salty about the Rafale purchase...? always seems to try to belittle or put a negative spin to the news (like "oh the planning minister or finance minister will not agree to the purchase, or oh they approve it but only in limited numbers, or oh they are going to slash the budget eventually, or oh it's just a Prabowo personal preference", etc), I mean I know you are in favor of the F-16 Vipers, but do you reaaally love them so badly as to unable to accept any other fighter model other than Vipers..? I mean what's so bad about the Rafale anyway..? Yeah it's expensive, but the Vipers aren't exactly cheap either... The Jordanians are planning on buying a sq of Vipers (16 units) and yet it will cost them about USD 4,2+ billion... I personally believe we will get the Rafale and we will get the KF-21 (not so sure about the F-15EX, though I'll be happy if we do get those as well)... 

Here is one other thing that you seem to have conveniently forgotten or failed to mention... After the US embargo in the 90's and early 2000's... We have decided to never again depend on a single source (read: US) for all our Fighter needs... Preferably we would want to continue our relationship with Russia and Sukhoi (as we already have the personnel and infrastructure in place), however it becomes untenable due to CAATSA... so France becomes a natural substitute for Russia as their arms industries and technology are actually pretty independent of the US... KF-21 though Korean, is still heavily dependent on US tech and supply chain and is thus practically a US product... not enough to be considered in our diversification planning, but we'll stick with it for the good industrial and technological cooperation we have with SK..

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Now: if there were no Rafaels...


----------



## Indos

Whizzack said:


> Hi Indos, just curious.. but why do you seem so salty about the Rafale purchase...? always seems to try to belittle or put a negative spin to the news (like "oh the planning minister or finance minister will not agree to the purchase, or oh they approve it but only in limited numbers, or oh they are going to slash the budget eventually, or oh it's just a Prabowo personal preference", etc), I mean I know you are in favor of the F-16 Vipers, but do you reaaally love them so badly as to unable to accept any other fighter model other than Vipers..? I mean what's so bad about the Rafale anyway..? Yeah it's expensive, but the Vipers aren't exactly cheap either... The Jordanians are planning on buying a sq of Vipers (16 units) and yet it will cost them about USD 4,2+ billion... I personally believe we will get the Rafale and we will get the KF-21 (not so sure about the F-15EX, though I'll be happy if we do get those as well)...
> 
> Here is one other thing that you seem to have conveniently forgotten or failed to mention... After the US embargo in the 90's and early 2000's... We have decided to never again depend on a single source (read: US) for all our Fighter needs... Preferably we would want to continue our relationship with Russia and Sukhoi (as we already have the personnel and infrastructure in place), however it becomes untenable due to CAATSA... so France becomes a natural substitute for Russia as their arms industries and technology are actually pretty independent of the US... KF-21 though Korean, is still heavily dependent on US tech and supply chain and is thus practically a US product... not enough to be considered in our diversification planning, but we'll stick with it for the good industrial and technological cooperation we have with SK..



Well I am not in support of big acquisition of fighter planes since I believe it is not supportive for our local defense industry, let alone the running KF 21/IFX program can be jeopardized because of that. I am also an economic guy, I have concern over our economy and dont want to spend unnecessary spending. 

I am fine with the normal order just to fill our F 5 squadron with 6-16 possible acquisition. For my analysist that is actually based on fact. So far the order of just 6 planes are also in accordance with my previous analysis which is derived from Bappenas plan and later the Finance Ministry decision to cut those 1.6 billion USD foreign loan back program into just 1.1 billion USD. That program is for the period of 2020-2024, that was shown during Air Force meeting in early 2021.


----------



## Indos

Whizzack said:


> Hi Indos, just curious.. but why do you seem so salty about the Rafale purchase...? always seems to try to belittle or put a negative spin to the news (like "oh the planning minister or finance minister will not agree to the purchase, or oh they approve it but only in limited numbers, or oh they are going to slash the budget eventually, or oh it's just a Prabowo personal preference", etc), I mean I know you are in favor of the F-16 Vipers, but do you reaaally love them so badly as to unable to accept any other fighter model other than Vipers..? I mean what's so bad about the Rafale anyway..? Yeah it's expensive, but the Vipers aren't exactly cheap either... The Jordanians are planning on buying a sq of Vipers (16 units) and yet it will cost them about USD 4,2+ billion... I personally believe we will get the Rafale and we will get the KF-21 (not so sure about the F-15EX, though I'll be happy if we do get those as well)...
> 
> Here is one other thing that you seem to have conveniently forgotten or failed to mention... After the US embargo in the 90's and early 2000's... We have decided to never again depend on a single source (read: US) for all our Fighter needs... Preferably we would want to continue our relationship with Russia and Sukhoi (as we already have the personnel and infrastructure in place), however it becomes untenable due to CAATSA... so France becomes a natural substitute for Russia as their arms industries and technology are actually pretty independent of the US... KF-21 though Korean, is still heavily dependent on US tech and supply chain and is thus practically a US product... not enough to be considered in our diversification planning, but we'll stick with it for the good industrial and technological cooperation we have with SK..



I have stated in PDF and in Defense Hub for some posts, even we cannot trust France, they are part of EU, and both USA and EU has done embargo to Indonesia over East Timor issue.

About F 16, I just see it will be economical to order it due current F 16 infrastructure we already have and I though it will be cheaper. That present F 16 V deal is quite shocking though, and it is some how loosen my resistance for our Mindef to buy Rafale.

About USA, we will not likely get any embargo from US due to US vs China competition. US needs Indonesia in that power game which is similar like what happened during cold war. During cold war, Indonesia was in US side due to our opposition to communism and during that period even US allow Indonesia to invade East Timor and kept that nation under our wrapped for quite long.

The embargo happened right after the cold war ended in 1990, US doesnt need Indonesia anymore as it has already a sole superpower. The same situation is unlikely to happen since China is a better competitor than USSR. The competition between USA and China will be very long and during that period we should improve our defense industry to achieve independency in the long term. Just like happening in cold war, both Indonesia and US interest is also alligned in relation to SCS power game, both support the UNCLOS law. 

Correct, KF21/IFX program will not provide us with 100 % independency, but it is already one and two step ahead to achieve that goal. This program is very essential to propel Indonesian Aerospace into a next level aerospace industry, what I am doing here is to protect Indonesian Aerospace future sales.

So I am against the acquisition of new fighter beyond 16 planes order, regardless it is F 16 V or Rafale, my consistency over this has been shown for quite long in this forum and other forum (DT), before the migration of Indonesian members from PDF, you can see me debating with Indonesian members who favor large acquisition of F 16 since during that period there is plan to buy around 32 F 16 V to replace Hawk squadron, my position at that time was against the plan and keep those 32 Hawk until 2030 until KF21/IFX replace them gradually inshaAllah.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Qutb-ud-din-Aibak

Indos said:


> Well I am not in support of big acquisition of fighter planes since I believe it is not supportive for our local defense industry, let alone the running KF 21/IFX program can be jeopardized because of that. I am also an economic guy, I have concern over our economy and dont want to spend unnecessary spending.
> 
> I am fine with the normal order just to fill our F 5 squadron with 6-16 possible acquisition. For my analysist that is actually based on fact. So far the order of just 6 planes are also in accordance with my previous analysis which is derived from Bappenas plan and later the Finance Ministry decision to cut those 1.6 billion USD foreign loan back program into just 1.1 billion USD. That program is for the period of 2020-2024, that was shown during Air Force meeting in early 2021.



How many quantity of F-15EX will IAF purchase


----------



## Indos

Qutb-ud-din-Aibak said:


> How many quantity of F-15EX will IAF purchase



Wish list of Prabowo, no financial support from other Ministry (Planning Ministry and Finance Ministry) are taken so far

More like Indonesia Osprey Helicopter saga.

I mean even for Rafale the contract is just for 6 planes


----------



## Qutb-ud-din-Aibak

Indos said:


> Wish list of Prabowo, no financial support from other Ministry (Planning Ministry and Finance Ministry) are taken so far
> 
> More like Indonesia Osprey Helicopter saga.
> 
> I mean even for Rafale the contract is just for 6 planes



I know it is for 6 fighters which could mean 6 every year? until it reaches 42? but what about the 15-EX


----------



## Indos

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494044662549471234


Qutb-ud-din-Aibak said:


> I know it is for 6 planes which could mean 6 every year? until it reaches 42? but what about the 15-EX



No, 6 is for 2020-2024 period if we see the current situation, MRCA program is only 1.1 billion USD for 2020-2024 period, unless if Minister of Planning and Minister of Finance makes changes. 36 planes are only Prabowo commitment, but he is not Presiden.


----------



## Indos

Here is Air Force acquisition program (2020-2024), *MRCA is part of the big plan, it is not the only program.* The budget for fighter is 1.6 billion USD for 2020-2024 period ( approved by Planning Minister), later Finance Minister slash it further into 1.1 billion USD

Backed by foreign loan ( foreign equipment)







Backed by domestic loan ( local defense industry product)


----------



## Dermomania

Qutb-ud-din-Aibak said:


> Berapa jumlah F-15EX yang akan dibeli IAF?


36. 36 F 15 EX and 42 Rafale.



Indos said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494044662549471234
> 
> 
> No, 6 is for 2020-2024 period if we see the current situation, MRCA program is only 1.1 billion USD for 2020-2024 period, unless if Minister of Planning and Minister of Finance makes changes. 36 planes are only Prabowo commitment, but he is not Presiden.


Prabowo The Next President 2024. Sri Mulyani out. Hihihihihihi


----------



## Indos

Dermomania said:


> 36. 36 F 15 EX and 42 Rafale.
> 
> 
> Prabowo The Next President 2024. Sri Mulyani out. Hihihihihihi



So you are going to vote for Prabowo ????? I mean seriously.

-------------------------------------------------

My votes will be for this guys

Anies and Ridwan will likely become a couple, these are third and fourth most popular joining force






Or Ganjar Pranowo ( the most popular although the different with other 2 candidates ( Anies and Prabowo) is not that large






----------------------------------------

I dont want to vote this guy ( I always vote for Jokowi in 2019 and 2014 election)

Prabowo and Puan I think will not likely get enough votes as Puan is not popular, and Islamist supporters of Prabowo in previous 2 elections will likely go to Anies and Ridwan.


----------



## Qutb-ud-din-Aibak

Dermomania said:


> 36. 36 F 15 EX and 42 Rafale.
> 
> 
> Prabowo The Next President 2024. Sri Mulyani out. Hihihihihihi


He maybe the right man as we find ourselves in multipolar world


----------



## nufix

Indos said:


> So you are going to vote for Prabowo ????? I mean seriously.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> My votes will be for this guys
> 
> Anies and Ridwan will likely become a couple, these are third and fourth most popular joining force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or Ganjar Pranowo ( the most popular although the different with other 2 candidates ( Anies and Prabowo) is not that large
> 
> View attachment 816706
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> I dont want to vote this guy ( I always vote for Jokowi in 2019 and 2014 election)
> 
> Prabowo and Puan I think will not likely get enough votes as Puan is not popular, and Islamist supporters of Prabowo in previous 2 elections will likely go to Anies and Ridwan.
> 
> View attachment 816707



Anies and Emil are dangerous combination though. Both are showmen with no real works to show for. I mean dont get me wrong, they are great at what they do, garnering support, playing with identity politics (Anies with Islam and Emil with Sunda ethnic), but those are recipes for disaster.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indos

nufix said:


> Anies and Emil are dangerous combination though. Both are showmen with no real works to show for. I mean dont get me wrong, they are great at what they do, garnering support, playing with identity politics (Anies with Islam and Emil with Sunda ethnic), but those are recipes for disaster.



I want Emil become President, but until now he doesnt get enough support, so if he becomes VP at least it is better than Anies alone.

Ganjar Pranowo looks like good debater, he is my second choice.

I want to see programs and who are people behind them. My focus is on local defense industry and defense spending. I want responsible person to become our Presiden. I think for economy, mostly they will likely follow the economic grand plan that will be made during Jokowi administration, since 2024 is the final year of our long term economic granplan. 

Any one but Prabowo is my slogan here


----------



## nufix

Indos said:


> I want Emil become President, but until now he doesnt get enough support, so if he becomes VP at least it is better than Anies alone.
> 
> Ganjar Pranowo looks like good debater, he is my second choice.
> 
> I want to see programs and who are people behind them. My focus is on local defense industry and defense spending. I want responsible person to become our Presiden. I think for economy, mostly they will likely follow the economic grand plan that will be made during Jokowi administration, since 2024 is the final year of our long term economic granplan.
> 
> Any one but Prabowo is my slogan here



If I had to choose between Emil and Anies, then Emil is a better alternative than Anies. Anies has a tainted track record. He was chosen out of identity politic, he is known for not continuing programs of his political rival regardless whether the program is good, he is also known for wasting money on senseless projects that only serves him. Jokowi‘s projects and vision will surely get trampled by Anies if he is chosen. 

In my case, Ganjar is my first choice, second is Prabowo, third is Emil. Emil could be my second choice if things change. The rest like Puan or Anies doesnt interest me.


----------

