# Pakistan Army is ready to fight big Army like India.



## Pomegranate

@A.Rafay @Ahmad1996 @Akheilos @Armstrong @arushbhai @AstanoshKhan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @balixd @batmannow @Bilal. @chauvunist @Crypto @Dr. Stranglove @Evil Flare @EyanKhan @Fahad Khan 2 @GIANTsasquatch @graphican @Green Arrow @Guleen Ahmed @HRK @Jazzbot @Junaid B @Jzaib @Khalidr @khawaja07 @Leader @Luftwaffe @mr42O @Muhammad Omar @nomi007 @Pak123 @Pakistani shaheens @Pakistanisage @Peaceful Civilian @pkuser2k12 @Pukhtoon @PWFI @raazh @Rafael @Rashid Mahmood @RescueRanger @Saifkhan12 @SHAMK9 @Spy Master @Stealth @Strike X @SUPARCO @sur @syedali73 @Tameem @Tayyab1796 @Zarvan @waleed3601 @AdeelFaheem @Rajput_Pakistani @Men in Green @IceCold @LoveIcon @razahassan1997 @Dil Pakistan @asq @junaid hamza @Pukhtoon @jamahir @Strigon @Rafi @Ulla @HughSlaman @420canada @sathya @slapshot @raza_888 @hacsan
@SBD-3 @cb4 @AsianUnion @Aether @Proudpakistaniguy @Waffen SS @FaujHistorian @Fracker @Ranches @ghoul @Jf Thunder @GreenFalcon @genmirajborgza786 @orangzaib @Pakistani Exile @KURUMAYA @Irfan Baloch @ali_raza @Syed.Ali.Haider @dexter @Patriots @muslim_pakistani @W.11 @Meengla @zaid butt @ajpirzada @Shoaib Rathore @OrionHunter @CHARGER @Major Sam @yesboss @TheNoob @Bratva @ghazaliy2k @Viny @StormShadow @suresh1773 @SOHEIL @venu309 @danish_vij @Force-India @faisal6309 @S.U.R.B. @vsdave2302 @jarves @WAJsal @pursuit of happiness @Winchester @janon @pak-marine @AgNoStiC MuSliM
@Etilla @SpArK @Srinivas @desert warrior @DRAY @pumkinduke @wolfpack @pursuit of happiness @danish_vij @rubyjackass @Star Wars @Ammyy @bloo @Marxist @karan.1970 @Not Sure @Arav_Rana @Avik274 @SamantK @Major Shaitan Singh @Omega007 @farhan_9909 @haviZsultan @Sidak @ranjeet @Yogijaat @ravi Nair @WAR-rior @halupridol @he-man @Indrani @Mike_Brando @SarthakGanguly @sreekumar @OrionHunter @lightoftruth @Water Car Engineer @indiatester @Ind4Ever @13 komaun @anant_s @itachiii @SwAggeR @Brahmos_2 @Blue_Eyes @bhangi bava @SAMEET @naveen mishra @Bagha @utraash @Chanakya's_Chant @Krate M @gslv mk3 @r1_vns @blood @noksss @kurup @PARIKRAMA @thesolar65 @Rohit Patel @wolfschanzze @levina @vostok @rahi2357 @Norwegian , , @razahassan1997 , @Leader , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Horus @Jazzbot @Norwegian @pkuser2k12 @Fahad Khan 2 @Spring Onion Onion @chauvunist @Pukhtoon @Jzaib @Pakistan Shaheen @karakoram

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## Razia Sultana

Please finish off your Zarb-e-Azb first.

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## Pomegranate

Razia Sultana said:


> Please finish off your Zarb-e-Azb first.


Most of those rented Terrorists are already in hell .............

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## Zarvan

Pomegranate said:


> @A.Rafay @Ahmad1996 @Akheilos @Armstrong @arushbhai @AstanoshKhan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @balixd @batmannow @Bilal. @chauvunist @Crypto @Dr. Stranglove @Evil Flare @EyanKhan @Fahad Khan 2 @GIANTsasquatch @graphican @Green Arrow @Guleen Ahmed @HRK @Jazzbot @Junaid B @Jzaib @Khalidr @khawaja07 @Leader @Luftwaffe @mr42O @Muhammad Omar @nomi007 @Pak123 @Pakistani shaheens @Pakistanisage @Peaceful Civilian @pkuser2k12 @Pukhtoon @PWFI @raazh @Rafael @Rashid Mahmood @RescueRanger @Saifkhan12 @SHAMK9 @Spy Master @Stealth @Strike X @SUPARCO @sur @syedali73 @Tameem @Tayyab1796 @Zarvan @waleed3601 @AdeelFaheem @Rajput_Pakistani @Men in Green @IceCold @LoveIcon @razahassan1997 @Dil Pakistan @asq @junaid hamza @Pukhtoon @jamahir @Strigon @Rafi @Ulla @HughSlaman @420canada @sathya @slapshot @raza_888 @hacsan
> @SBD-3 @cb4 @AsianUnion @Aether @Proudpakistaniguy @Waffen SS @FaujHistorian @Fracker @Ranches @ghoul @Jf Thunder @GreenFalcon @genmirajborgza786 @orangzaib @Pakistani Exile @KURUMAYA @Irfan Baloch @ali_raza @Syed.Ali.Haider @dexter @Patriots @muslim_pakistani @W.11 @Meengla @zaid butt @ajpirzada @Shoaib Rathore @OrionHunter @CHARGER @Major Sam @yesboss @TheNoob @Bratva @ghazaliy2k @Viny @StormShadow @suresh1773 @SOHEIL @venu309 @danish_vij @Force-India @faisal6309 @S.U.R.B. @vsdave2302 @jarves @WAJsal @pursuit of happiness @Winchester @janon @pak-marine @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> @Etilla @SpArK @Srinivas @desert warrior @DRAY @pumkinduke @wolfpack @pursuit of happiness @danish_vij @rubyjackass @Star Wars @Ammyy @bloo @Marxist @karan.1970 @Not Sure @Arav_Rana @Avik274 @SamantK @Major Shaitan Singh @Omega007 @farhan_9909 @haviZsultan @Sidak @ranjeet @Yogijaat @ravi Nair @WAR-rior @halupridol @he-man @Indrani @Mike_Brando @SarthakGanguly @sreekumar @OrionHunter @lightoftruth @Water Car Engineer @indiatester @Ind4Ever @13 komaun @anant_s @itachiii @SwAggeR @Brahmos_2 @Blue_Eyes @bhangi bava @SAMEET @naveen mishra @Bagha @utraash @Chanakya's_Chant @Krate M @gslv mk3 @r1_vns @blood @noksss @kurup @PARIKRAMA @thesolar65 @Rohit Patel @wolfschanzze @levina @vostok @rahi2357 @Norwegian , , @razahassan1997 , @Leader , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Horus @Jazzbot @Norwegian @pkuser2k12 @Fahad Khan 2 @Spring Onion Onion @chauvunist @Pukhtoon @Jzaib @Pakistan Shaheen @karakoram


What the video says ?

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## Pomegranate

Zarvan said:


> What the video says ?


It Actually describes the Military Tactics ......


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## Srinivas

Pomegranate said:


>



He is correct, in the sense a good strategy always brings victory provided it is executed flawlessly !

Numbers do not count, important thing is strategy and timing. But India is not the India of 7th or 12th century, nor people like Prithvi are ruling India .India is getting stronger and the gap between India and Pakistan is increasing, the trend will continue. The part of History where some highly mobile central asian truks/fierce afghans/ persians raiding Indian Sub continent will not repeat for sure !

He personally lead the ssg commandoes to capture Siachen, ask him where his strategy failed?
The scenario is same 40 or 50 odd commandoes against Indian soldiers.

The western fleet and Marine force of India is going to dominate Arabian sea and Indian ocean.

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## SipahSalar

This is what a lot of people don't understand. History is full of smaller armies beating much larger armies. Numerical superiority is just one of the factors that influence the outcome of the battle. 
I don't need any facts or references to say that Pakistani forces enjoy a much higher morale compared to Indian forces. And that too is a deciding factor in the outcome.

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## Yaduveer

I personally respect Musharraf for his on the face attitude.

But now a days he is trying his best to please establishment so that some sort of concession would be granted for his release. I pity his condition.

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## SipahSalar

Indian Patriot said:


> A "professional" army that cannot defeat taliban in their own backyard cannot make such lofty claims.


I guess then we can rule out the Americans as a professional army. Only Indian army is the professional army.
I wont even bother mentioning the maoists.

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## ganesh177

Okay, so when do we start ?

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## Pulsar

Pomegranate said:


> Most of those rented Terrorists are already in hell .............


And yet they keep killing Pakistanis at regular intervals!! There's hardly been any change in the situation since Zarb commenced. That means not many militants have been sent to Hell as you gleefully contend!!

Aw shucks! Mush again in the video, the man known to lie through his teeth! The murderer of Benazir and Bugti. The man who lied to the world that it were the 'mujahideen' who fought in Kargil and that the PA had nothing to do with it!! Holy smoke!! I guess he was unaware that five battalions of the Northern light Infantry were involved!

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## pkuser2k12

Razia Sultana said:


> Please finish off your Zarb-e-Azb first.




apni separatists movements say nipat lo phir hamayn maswara dayna . har thisri state mayn separates movements hayn khabar dabanay say movements khatam nae ho jayn geen.......

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## Pomegranate

SipahSalar said:


> I guess then we can rule out the Americans as a professional army. Only Indian army is the professional army.
> I wont even bother mentioning the maoists.


Not just america sir but all those countries in Nato ..................Pakistan army is the best army on the face of earth if any one can defeat these rented Raw Terrorists that would be pak army

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## Indian Patriot

SipahSalar said:


> I guess then we can rule out the Americans as a professional army. Only Indian army is the professional army.
> I wont even bother mentioning the maoists.



Americans are not fighting in their country. They are fighting afghans in afghanistan which is some 5,000 - 6,000 kilometers away from America. And America has not mobilised their full power. Read World War2 and you will know how Americans fight wars. 

The Pakistanis are fighting to save their country, their villages and cities. Heavy artillery, aircraft, infantry, tanks everything has been mobilised and still the Pakistanis suffer HUGE losses and losing ground. 

Indian army is not fighting against Maoists, the armed police are. Funny you mention about Maoists because the states affected by Maoists have better power supply and industrial output than Pakistan.

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## T90TankGuy

Our Pakistani friends here seem to forget , we do not want to go to war , for us our economy is the priority .
And all those who advocate war on this forum thinking its some sort of a romantic fantasy , let me just inform them that war is the last thing on any solders mind. because once started there is no way to stop midway . there will be casuilties, on both sides.

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## Diggy

isn't youtube banned in pak . 

ontopic - pakistan lost the capability to fight a conventional war with india long back , hence they have outsourced the job to mujahideen . Kargil was an example of that .

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## T90TankGuy

Pomegranate said:


> Not just america sir but all those countries in Nato ..................Pakistan army is the *best army on the face of earth* if any one can defeat these rented Raw Terrorists that would be pak army


I know its good to be proud of one self but some times a little reality is also essential. 
By the way how old are you?

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## Pomegranate

jbgt90 said:


> I know its good to be proud of one self but some times a little reality is also essential.
> By the way how old are you?


I know you are really pissed at me and the first sign you showed was asking my age .. this is what a troll like you would do when you have no answer ??


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## Indian Patriot

Pulsar said:


> And yet they keep killing Pakistanis at regular intervals!! There's hardly been any change in the situation since Zarb commenced. That means not many militants have been sent to Hell as you gleefully contend!!



The fact that Pakistan had to officially declare an operation zarb e azb is proof that the militants are taking ground. The Pakistanis never had any control over autonomous tribal provinces, now they are as good as gone. As long as the people sympathise with the rebels this civil war will not end.

Pakistani army is cutting down the branches while the roots grow strong and deep. In ten years from now Pakistan will still be fighting zarb e azb and fighting for their lives.

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## T90TankGuy

Pomegranate said:


> I know you are really pissed at me and the first sign you showed was asking my age .. this is what a troll like you would do when you have no answer ??


Comprehension is another problem with you is int it? 
7k post and not one is a troll post and i am proud of that . i ask your age as i see your post lack maturity .

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## wiqi21

Unable to watch this videos BTW when this You tube ban is going to end?


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## SipahSalar

Indian Patriot said:


> Americans are not fighting in their country. They are fighting afghans in afghanistan which is some 5,000 - 6,000 kilometers away from America. And America has not mobilised their full power. Read World War2 and you will know how Americans fight wars.
> 
> The Pakistanis are fighting to save their country, their villages and cities. Heavy artillery, aircraft, infantry, tanks everything has been mobilised and still the Pakistanis suffer HUGE losses and losing ground.
> 
> Indian army is not fighting against Maoists, the armed police are. Funny you mention about Maoists because the states affected by Maoists have better power supply and industrial output than Pakistan.


American did not mobilise their full power? Tell me what will make the americans mobilize their full power? At their peak they had 180,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, 1/4th of their entire army. They had their best assets there, drones, B-52s, F-15s, Apaches. And yet you say they didn't? Tell me what will make American mobilize full power? They are already on their knees saying they are ready for talks with taliban and don't think taliban are terrorists.
As for WW2, they can never mobilize on that scale again. The global politics has changed and they haven't enforced conscription, neither do they have the money to mobilize on that scale. If anything they are becoming smaller.


jbgt90 said:


> Our Pakistani friends here seem to forget , we do not want to go to war , for us our economy is the priority .
> And all those who advocate war on this forum thinking ts some sort of a romantic fantasy , let me just inform them that war is the last thing on any solders mind. because once started there is no way to stop midway . there will be casuilties, on both sides.


Agreed. But you will see more war drum beating from Pakistan because it is logical for us. If India does not care or prepare much for war, it doesn't make as much difference to them if they get caught off guard. But Pakistan cannot afford that luxury. We need to keep reminding the Indians that our swords are sharp as a precaution against misadventure. Mind you, Pakistanis don't want war anymore than Indians. It's just a survival instinct.

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## Yousafzai_M

Indian Patriot said:


> The Pakistanis cannot fight an organised army, never mind "big army like India". The reason Pakistan invested so heavily in "non-state actors" like Taliban, LeT, JuD etc. is because the army needed scapegoats to bind India in one place while they plan strategic moves. Unfortunately Pakistan did never calculate about a certain OBL and the effects of 9/11. The Taliban felt betrayed by Pakistan siding with US and now you have a civil war in Pakistan which is unlikely to end because the rebels have emotional and ideological support from conservative Pakistani society.
> 
> The Pakistani army has been a flop show in their zarb e azb, yes the Pakistanis are pounding furiously at rebel cities with bombardment and air power. But the Pakistanis forgot what they had been shouting to USA all along, indiscriminate bombing only adds numbers to rebel cause. To kill 10 militants Pakistan bombards an entire village killing 10 militants and 100 civilians with them. 10 years has passed but the end of Pakistani civil war is still not in sight. One commander dies, another one comes up to take his place. More and more ground has been lost by Pakistan in the war and the casualties simply keep mounting.
> 
> A "professional" army that cannot defeat taliban in their own backyard cannot make such lofty claims.



Taliban are not an organised army which is why they cannot be defeated purely by military means. NATO couldn't defeat them either with all their technology and neither could 'professional' Indian Army hold the 'militants' in Occupied Kashmir.

As for Pakistan's investment in 'non-state actors', show me a government that wouldn't do that. Think of Mukti Bahni for example.

I do agree to some extent that military has to be careful in the amount of fire power it unleashes, specially when you are operating within the boundaries of your own country. 

I for one would rather ban the use of armed forces in the country altogether and instead, heavily invest in police and intelligence to do the job. Fighting terrorists is not Army's job, thats for police.


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## Pomegranate

Zebra said:


> forget age , i know the range is 5-10
> 
> what i want to know is whether
> @Pomegranate is a he or a she , @Pomegranate please clarify so that i can decide on my future response to you .



@waz @Horus @WebMaster @Jango @Oscar This guy is repeatedly violating the rules of this forum will yoiu trake action now ?? or m i allowed to answer this troll on the same manner coz i have good things to say to him ... please take action


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## halupridol

Pomegranate said:


> Aray nhi bhai hum ap ki opinion ki respect kartein hai lekin thor hath hola raakho na bhaiya ...


hath hola,,,,,umm,,,,wo karney ke liye mere me 'tehzeeb' ki kami hae,,,,nai ho payega.
waise bhi me thehra uncivilised hindoo,,,so its natural that I will be against ' muslims in general n Pakistanis in particular',,,hope ki dialog copyright protected nahi ha

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## Indian Patriot

SipahSalar said:


> American did not mobilise their full power? Tell me what will make the americans mobilize their full power? At their peak they had 180,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, 1/4th of their entire army. They had their best assets there, drones, B-52s, F-15s, Apaches. And yet you say they didn't? Tell me what will make American mobilize full power? They are already on their knees saying they are ready for talks with taliban and don't think taliban are terrorists.
> As for WW2, they can never mobilize on that scale again. The global politics has changed and they haven't enforced conscription, neither do they have the money to mobilize on that scale. If anything they are becoming smaller.



Yes America did not mobilise their full power. 

You are talking 180,000 soldiers, only? American military is the second largest in the world. They have the second largest army, the largest navy and the largest air force in the world. And I am not even counting their national guard and armed reserve. USA mobilised 500,000+ troops for Vietnam and over 4 million during second world war. 

Only an invasion of USA or a WMD strike against American territory will make them mobilise full power. You have not seen the full power of America. Germany and Japan has. 

1/4th of their entire army? ROFLOL!! US army is 1 million plus you fool. They had their best assets in very modest numbers. You should check out the size of American military before making such foolish comments. 

Is Pakistan not begging the Taliban for talks? The USA can leave tomorrow and nothing will change. If Pakistan stops its war against Taliban they will end up being second Afghanistan. 

The Americans have the largest military industrial complex on earth. They are not Pakistan. They can mobilise any time they want, they just don't feel the need to do so. The US President has to plead with the Congress to send extra troops and supplies, their economy is not mobilised for war, their reserves are happily sitting in America and their is no war time production. Declare an invasion of America and you will see President have absolute power, their economy diverted to war effort, American youth drafted for war and all their industries will be manufacturing tanks, planes, missiles. And it is funny reading a Pakistani saying America does not have money.

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## BDforever

Pomegranate said:


> @A.Rafay @Ahmad1996 @Akheilos @Armstrong @arushbhai @AstanoshKhan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @balixd @batmannow @Bilal. @chauvunist @Crypto @Dr. Stranglove @Evil Flare @EyanKhan @Fahad Khan 2 @GIANTsasquatch @graphican @Green Arrow @Guleen Ahmed @HRK @Jazzbot @Junaid B @Jzaib @Khalidr @khawaja07 @Leader @Luftwaffe @mr42O @Muhammad Omar @nomi007 @Pak123 @Pakistani shaheens @Pakistanisage @Peaceful Civilian @pkuser2k12 @Pukhtoon @PWFI @raazh @Rafael @Rashid Mahmood @RescueRanger @Saifkhan12 @SHAMK9 @Spy Master @Stealth @Strike X @SUPARCO @sur @syedali73 @Tameem @Tayyab1796 @Zarvan @waleed3601 @AdeelFaheem @Rajput_Pakistani @Men in Green @IceCold @LoveIcon @razahassan1997 @Dil Pakistan @asq @junaid hamza @Pukhtoon @jamahir @Strigon @Rafi @Ulla @HughSlaman @420canada @sathya @slapshot @raza_888 @hacsan
> @SBD-3 @cb4 @AsianUnion @Aether @Proudpakistaniguy @Waffen SS @FaujHistorian @Fracker @Ranches @ghoul @Jf Thunder @GreenFalcon @genmirajborgza786 @orangzaib @Pakistani Exile @KURUMAYA @Irfan Baloch @ali_raza @Syed.Ali.Haider @dexter @Patriots @muslim_pakistani @W.11 @Meengla @zaid butt @ajpirzada @Shoaib Rathore @OrionHunter @CHARGER @Major Sam @yesboss @TheNoob @Bratva @ghazaliy2k @Viny @StormShadow @suresh1773 @SOHEIL @venu309 @danish_vij @Force-India @faisal6309 @S.U.R.B. @vsdave2302 @jarves @WAJsal @pursuit of happiness @Winchester @janon @pak-marine @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> @Etilla @SpArK @Srinivas @desert warrior @DRAY @pumkinduke @wolfpack @pursuit of happiness @danish_vij @rubyjackass @Star Wars @Ammyy @bloo @Marxist @karan.1970 @Not Sure @Arav_Rana @Avik274 @SamantK @Major Shaitan Singh @Omega007 @farhan_9909 @haviZsultan @Sidak @ranjeet @Yogijaat @ravi Nair @WAR-rior @halupridol @he-man @Indrani @Mike_Brando @SarthakGanguly @sreekumar @OrionHunter @lightoftruth @Water Car Engineer @indiatester @Ind4Ever @13 komaun @anant_s @itachiii @SwAggeR @Brahmos_2 @Blue_Eyes @bhangi bava @SAMEET @naveen mishra @Bagha @utraash @Chanakya's_Chant @Krate M @gslv mk3 @r1_vns @blood @noksss @kurup @PARIKRAMA @thesolar65 @Rohit Patel @wolfschanzze @levina @vostok @rahi2357 @Norwegian , , @razahassan1997 , @Leader , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Horus @Jazzbot @Norwegian @pkuser2k12 @Fahad Khan 2 @Spring Onion Onion @chauvunist @Pukhtoon @Jzaib @Pakistan Shaheen @karakoram


so Pakistan was not ready before ? :O
BTW since u r ready , now fight ..... aaaattttaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk...........

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## T90TankGuy

SipahSalar said:


> American did not mobilise their full power? Tell me what will make the americans mobilize their full power? At their peak they had 180,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, 1/4th of their entire army. They had their best assets there, drones, B-52s, F-15s, Apaches. And yet you say they didn't? Tell me what will make American mobilize full power? They are already on their knees saying they are ready for talks with taliban and don't think taliban are terrorists.
> As for WW2, they can never mobilize on that scale again. The global politics has changed and they haven't enforced conscription, neither do they have the money to mobilize on that scale. If anything they are becoming smaller.
> 
> Agreed. But you will see more war drum beating from Pakistan because it is logical for us. If India does not care or prepare much for war, it doesn't make as much difference to them if they get caught off guard. But Pakistan cannot afford that luxury. *We need to keep reminding the Indians that our swords are sharp as a precaution against misadventure. Mind you, Pakistanis don't want war anymore than Indians. It's just a survival instinct*.


My dear friend a war will be disastrous for both sides , and i am pretty sure that the leadership on both sides know that , 
these war drums are often beaten by people who have little or no understanding of the consequences of such a conflict.

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## Yousafzai_M

Pulsar said:


> And yet they keep killing Pakistanis at regular intervals!! There's hardly been any change in the situation since Zarb commenced. That means not many militants have been sent to Hell as you gleefully contend!!
> 
> Aw shucks! Mush again in the video, the man known to lie through his teeth! The murderer of Benazir and Bugti. The man who lied to the world that it were the 'mujahideen' who fought in Kargil and that the PA had nothing to do with it!! Holy smoke!! I guess he was unaware that five battalions of the Northern light Infantry were involved!



Of course, he has to be all honest, sincere and an open book to the eternal enemies of his country. Thats a trivial thing to ask for.


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## SecularNationalist

jbgt90 said:


> My dear friend a war will be disastrous for both sides , and i am pretty sure that the leadership on both sides know that ,
> these war drums are often beaten by people who have little or no understanding of the consequences of such a conflict.


And when there are nuclear powers involved there will be no winners .

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## Indian Patriot

Yousafzai_M said:


> Taliban are not an organised army which is why they cannot be defeated purely by military means. NATO couldn't defeat them either with all their technology and neither could 'professional' Indian Army hold the 'militants' in Occupied Kashmir.
> 
> As for Pakistan's investment in 'non-state actors', show me a government that wouldn't do that. Think of Mukti Bahni for example.
> 
> I do agree to some extent that military has to be careful in the amount of fire power it unleashes, specially when you are operating within the boundaries of your own country.
> 
> I for one would rather ban the use of armed forces in the country altogether and instead, heavily invest in police and intelligence to do the job. Fighting terrorists is not Army's job, thats for police.



If USA/NATO bombs Taliban like they bombed Japan and Germany, or even like they bombed Vietnam the fear of God will be fixed deep in your hearts. You have no idea how big, bad and powerful USA can be. They are fighting with their hands tied behind their back. 

Indian Army is in full control over Kashmir that's why Indians are there and you Pakistanis are crying. Indian Army has better control over Kashmir than Pakistan does over its tribal regions. 

Other states invest in non-state actors. Russia is doing that in Ukraine now. Thing is you Pakistanis lack the intelligence on how to use non-state actors. Mukti bahini and the Ukraine rebels did not fight against India and Russia, The Taliban is bombing the daylights out of you. 

I agree with your last line though.

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## SipahSalar

Indian Patriot said:


> Yes America did not mobilise their full power.
> 
> You are talking 180,000 soldiers, only? American military is the second largest in the world. They have the second largest army, the largest navy and the largest air force in the world. And I am not even counting their national guard and armed reserve. USA mobilised 500,000+ troops for Vietnam and over 4 million during second world war.
> 
> Only an invasion of USA or a WMD strike against American territory will make them mobilise full power. You have not seen the full power of America. Germany and Japan has.
> 
> 1/4th of their entire army? ROFLOL!! US army is 1 million plus you fool. They had their best assets in very modest numbers. You should check out the size of American military before making such foolish comments.
> 
> Is Pakistan not begging the Taliban for talks? The USA can leave tomorrow and nothing will change. If Pakistan stops its war against Taliban they will end up being second Afghanistan.
> 
> The Americans have the largest military industrial complex on earth. They are not Pakistan. They can mobilise any time they want, they just don't feel the need to do so. The US President has to plead with the Congress to send extra troops and supplies, their economy is not mobilised for war, their reserves are happily sitting in America and their is no war time production. Declare an invasion of America and you will see President have absolute power, their economy diverted to war effort, American youth drafted for war and all their industries will be manufacturing tanks, planes, missiles. And it is funny reading a Pakistani saying America does not have money.


Your response is foolish and i don't even know how to respond to it. So America will rather accept defeat in Iraq and Afghanistan than mobilize completely? What a foolish statement. What are armies for if not for fighting wars to win?



Indian Patriot said:


> If USA/NATO bombs Taliban like they bombed Japan and Germany, or even like they bombed Vietnam the fear of God will be fixed deep in your hearts. You have no idea how big, bad and powerful USA can be. They are fighting with their hands tied behind their back.


Yes i wonder how much worse than bombing weddings can they get.

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## Yousafzai_M

Indian Patriot said:


> Yes America did not mobilise their full power.
> 
> You are talking 180,000 soldiers, only? American military is the second largest in the world. They have the second largest army, the largest navy and the largest air force in the world. And I am not even counting their national guard and armed reserve. USA mobilised 500,000+ troops for Vietnam and over 4 million during second world war.
> 
> Only an invasion of USA or a WMD strike against American territory will make them mobilise full power. You have not seen the full power of America. Germany and Japan has.



Yes they didn't unleash their full military firepower because they wanted to lose the war in Afghanistan. Got your point.



Indian Patriot said:


> 1/4th of their entire army? ROFLOL!! US army is 1 million plus you fool. They had their best assets in very modest numbers. You should check out the size of American military before making such foolish comments.



According to the document published by DoD in 2012, the strength of US army is 546,057.

http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2012_Demographics_Report.pdf

Or do you know about their numbers more than their defence ministry? Speaking of foolish comments.



Indian Patriot said:


> Is Pakistan not begging the Taliban for talks? The USA can leave tomorrow and nothing will change. If Pakistan stops its war against Taliban they will end up being second Afghanistan.



Thanks for your concern about Pakistan, much appreciated.



Indian Patriot said:


> The Americans have the largest military industrial complex on earth. They are not Pakistan. They can mobilise any time they want, they just don't feel the need to do so. The US President has to plead with the Congress to send extra troops and supplies, their economy is not mobilised for war, their reserves are happily sitting in America and their is no war time production. Declare an invasion of America and you will see President have absolute power, their economy diverted to war effort, American youth drafted for war and all their industries will be manufacturing tanks, planes, missiles. And it is funny reading a Pakistani saying America does not have money.



Is America now one of your countless gods? Congrats and good luck with worshipping.

We Pakistanis though don't give a damn, sorry.

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## DIRECT ACTION

SipahSalar said:


> This is what a lot of people don't understand. History is full of smaller armies beating much larger armies. Numerical superiority is just one of the factors that influence the outcome of the battle.
> I don't need any facts or references to say that Pakistani forces enjoy a much higher morale compared to Indian forces. And that too is a deciding factor in the outcome.



can you give any source of your clam?? AFAIK a force with high moral will never surrender or runaway from war. but pakistan army does it. history of PA tells that high moral of PA is only in paper.



SipahSalar said:


> I guess then we can rule out the Americans as a professional army. Only Indian army is the professional army.
> I wont even bother mentioning the maoists.


army is not involved in the fight against Maoists.

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## T90TankGuy

SecularNationalist said:


> And when there are nuclear powers involved there will be no winners .


You are right. 

I do not believe that the leadership in both countries is as foolish as some members here who throw the nuke equation at the drop of a hat.

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## Indian Patriot

SipahSalar said:


> Your response is foolish and i don't even know how to respond to it. So America will rather accept defeat in Iraq and Afghanistan than mobilize completely? What a foolish statement. What are armies for if not for fighting wars to win?



Your propaganda says they were defeated. Who said they were defeated?

They destroyed taliban, they destroyed saddam hussein and his regime. What more should they do, start a genocide? The US President has to seek approval from the Congress to fight wars. The Congress feels the fiscal benefits of the war are nil and hence they must withdraw. Does the taliban or iraq have the power to push America out of their country like the Vietnamese did? Is America engaged in a battle for survival in iraq or afghanistan like they were in Vietnam?

They already won their wars. 



SipahSalar said:


> Yes i wonder how much worse than bombing weddings can they get .



Google for Dresden bombings and THOUSAND BOMBER air raids, Google for Tokyo fire-bombings. You will know what full force American attack really means. Sending a single predator drone to launch a Hellfire missile on a suspected base is not USAF air attack. ROFLOL!!

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## SipahSalar

Indian Patriot said:


> Google for Dresden bombings and THOUSAND BOMBER air raids, Google for Tokyo fire-bombings. You will know what full force American attack really means. Sending a single predator drone to launch a Hellfire missile on a suspected base is not USAF air attack. ROFLOL!!


They can't do that in today's world. No one will put up with it. Secondly, fire bombing civilians and killing innocent people is not a measure of military prowess. That sounds like a bully who comes home to beat his wife after being beaten on the street.


Indian Patriot said:


> Your propaganda says they were defeated. Who said they were defeated?
> 
> They destroyed taliban, they destroyed saddam hussein and his regime. What more should they do, start a genocide? The US President has to seek approval from the Congress to fight wars. The Congress feels the fiscal benefits of the war are nil and hence they must withdraw. Does the taliban or iraq have the power to push America out of their country like the Vietnamese did? Is America engaged in a battle for survival in iraq or afghanistan like they were in Vietnam?
> 
> They already won their wars.


Destroyed taliban? No, taliban is still here and US is begging them for peace. Destroyed Saddam Hussain? No, ISIS is being led by former Baath party members. Look at what is happening in Iraq.


DIRECT ACTION said:


> can you give any source of your clam?? AFAIK a force with high moral will never surrender or runaway from war. but pakistan army does it. history of PA tells that high moral of PA is only in paper.


We don't run away or scare away from a fight. Pakistan wouldn't exist if that were the case.

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## Stephen Cohen

Dont even think about it ; Pakistan Army will be ROUTED in a conflict with India


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Pomegranate said:


> Most of those rented Terrorists are already in hell .............


And still within this week they have mounted an attack in Lahore and another in Rawal Pindi. Frnkly, from where I see, Zarb-e-Azb is a limited success to a moderate failure. Just like earlier operations of Rah-e- series.


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## ito

SipahSalar said:


> This is what a lot of people don't understand. History is full of smaller armies beating much larger armies. Numerical superiority is just one of the factors that influence the outcome of the battle.
> I don't need any facts or references to say that Pakistani forces enjoy a much higher morale compared to Indian forces. And that too is a deciding factor in the outcome.



Smaller armies defeating larger armies are not norms rather exceptions. And I can Pakistani army is no match for India. You will loose badly.


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## Indian Patriot

Yousafzai_M said:


> Yes they didn't unleash their full military firepower because they wanted to lose the war in Afghanistan. Got your point.



Only a deluded Pakistani would believe America lost in iraq and afghanistan. So who defeated taliban and destroyed saddam hussein's regime, alladin and his flying carpet?



Yousafzai_M said:


> According to the document published by DoD in 2012, the strength of US army is 546,057.
> 
> http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2012_Demographics_Report.pdf
> 
> Or do you know about their numbers more than their defence ministry? Speaking of foolish comments.



You should improve your education levels if possible, your comprehension skills are awful.

According to your own link, Page 20 of 221, it is mentioned thus,

_*Overview of Military Personnel *
_
*The total number of military personnel is over 3.6 million strong, including DoD Active Duty *
_*military personnel (1,388,028)*; DHS’s Active Duty Coast Guard members (41,849); DoD Ready 
Reserve and DHS Coast Guard Reserve member
s (1,086,447); members of the Retired 
Reserve (212,314) and Standby Reserve (16,327); and DoD appropriated and non-appropriated 
fund civilian personnel (907,121). DoD’s Active Duty and DHS’s Coast Guard Active Duty 
members comprise the largest portion of the military force (39.2%), followed by Ready Reserve 
members (29.7%) and DoD civilian personnel (24.8%)._

Which clearly states total military personnel as 3.6 million and active duty military personnel as 1,388,028. Which is 1.38 million. 



Yousafzai_M said:


> Thanks for your concern about Pakistan, much appreciated.



Can't have taliban take over Pakistani nukes. Maybe USA will send a task force or India will have to intervene. 



Yousafzai_M said:


> Is America now one of your countless gods? Congrats and good luck with worshipping.



USA are our partners, their President paid a visit to India to discuss important strategic issues. Interestingly US president criticised Pakistani support of terror outfits and withheld aid money. 



Yousafzai_M said:


> We Pakistanis though don't give a damn, sorry.



You Pakistanis very much give a damn that's why in a regular basis you beg for US aid and get annoyed when they refused. And for US donations you are fighting and bombing your own people. 2.5 billion dollars is what they paid you for your efforts.


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## jarves

Yousafzai_M said:


> neither could 'professional' Indian Army hold the 'militants' in Occupied Kashmir.


Hold?? We have flushed them out long before.The era of insurgence in Kashmir is over now and unlike PA,Indian army doesnt even use Sukhoi's,heavy artilleries e.t.c.Infact Maoists are a bigger threat to Indian than militants in Kashmir are.


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## bloo

If both armies war now, it will be a battle of attrition and IA will have a huge advantage in dealing damage for sustained periods of time because of its size.
As simple as that, Pakistanis may strawman argument themselves into believing otherwise but bigger usually does mean better.


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## jarves

SipahSalar said:


> I wont even bother mentioning the maoists.


Indian police forces fight with maoists and not army.India is against using force and bombing against its own people unlike Pakistani army.
Check out the casualities on both sides due to terrorists and this will give you a perspective about proffessionalism.


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## Indian Patriot

SipahSalar said:


> They can't do that in today's world. No one will put up with it. Secondly, fire bombing civilians and killing innocent people is not a measure of military prowess. That sounds like a bully who comes home to beat his wife after being beaten on the street.



The Americans can, they CHOOSE not to. 

It is the taliban and ISIS that beats women, children and defenseless civilians, not USA. An outraged USA will bomb their enemy as they see fit, who has the courage to stop them?



SipahSalar said:


> Destroyed taliban? No, taliban is still here and US is begging them for peace. Destroyed Saddam Hussain? No, ISIS is being led by former Baath party members. Look at what is happening in Iraq.
> We don't run away or scare away from a fight. Pakistan wouldn't exist if that were the case.



They destroyed taliban that's why after US invasion taliban shifted base to Pakistan. 

US is not begging them for peace anymore than Pakistan which is begging for a ceasefire. They destroyed saddam hussein and they destroyed ISIS forces in Kobane, Syria. ISIS will run out of volunteers before USA runs out of bombs to drop on their heads. 

You very much run away. Look at 1971 war and the recent set backs suffered against TTP.


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## kurup

Good .... maybe now they will have the courage to fight face to face rather than hiding behind and sending in terrorists .


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## SipahSalar

jarves said:


> Indian police forces fight with maoists and not army.India is against using force and bombing against its own people unlike Pakistani army.
> Check out the casualities on both sides due to terrorists and this will give you a perspective about proffessionalism.


Does it matter whether they use police or army? Insurgency is insurgency. it's just that Indians choose to be foolish and accept half measures that's why their police is suffering heavy casulties and much of central Indian states are under Maoists control.


Indian Patriot said:


> The Americans can, they CHOOSE not to.
> 
> It is the taliban and ISIS that beats women, children and defenseless civilians, not USA. An outraged USA will bomb their enemy as they see fit, who has the courage to stop them?


Wow, this is a conspiracy. You should call every news organization and tell them that American generals are intentionally losing, and siding with the enemy, don't forget to provide them with proof. They are traitors to the American people, enemy of the state and should be court-martialed and executed....


Indian Patriot said:


> They destroyed taliban that's why after US invasion taliban shifted base to Pakistan.
> 
> US is not begging them for peace anymore than Pakistan which is begging for a ceasefire. They destroyed saddam hussein and they destroyed ISIS forces in Kobane, Syria. ISIS will run out of volunteers before USA runs out of bombs to drop on their heads.
> 
> You very much run away. Look at 1971 war and the recent set backs suffered against TTP.


Ok you keep saying destroyed Taliban and destroyed Saddam Hussein like an old record player. Open your eyes. Taliban is still there. Isis is still there. Americans meanwhile are not.
1971 was a war of independance by Bengalis. If you want to go that far back go 20 years further to 1947 when your hindustan was split into three pieces.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Pakistan was always ready to fight a larger army,
























































































the only issue was victory after that

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## SipahSalar

Syama Ayas said:


> the only issue was victory after that


And how certain are you of victory my friend?


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## jhungary

SipahSalar said:


> American did not mobilise their full power? Tell me what will make the americans mobilize their full power? At their peak they had 180,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, 1/4th of their entire army. They had their best assets there, drones, B-52s, F-15s, Apaches. And yet you say they didn't? Tell me what will make American mobilize full power? They are already on their knees saying they are ready for talks with taliban and don't think taliban are terrorists.
> As for WW2, they can never mobilize on that scale again. The global politics has changed and they haven't enforced conscription, neither do they have the money to mobilize on that scale. If anything they are becoming smaller.
> 
> Agreed. But you will see more war drum beating from Pakistan because it is logical for us. If India does not care or prepare much for war, it doesn't make as much difference to them if they get caught off guard. But Pakistan cannot afford that luxury. We need to keep reminding the Indians that our swords are sharp as a precaution against misadventure. Mind you, Pakistanis don't want war anymore than Indians. It's just a survival instinct.



read your post, so even 1/4 power = full power? How does that make sense?

by the way, we have about 1.2 mil in our Army branch today, 600000 regular, 200000 reserve and another 400000 National Guard. And that does not include individual reserve (Those who fulfilled their ETS and still retained for operational readiness)

In reality, Afghanistan represent less than 1/10 of our Army strength. We can do 1/4 in term of logistic under full mob, not in a war like in Afghanistan.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

SipahSalar said:


> And how certain are you of victory my friend?



How does MAD represent victory for Pakistan? 
Suicide bomber mentality does not work in case of nuclear war

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## SipahSalar

jhungary said:


> read your post, so even 1/4 power = full power? How does that make sense?
> 
> by the way, we have about 1.2 mil in our Army branch today, 600000 regular, 200000 reserve and another 400000 National Guard. And that does not include individual reserve (Those who fulfilled their ETS and still retained for operational readiness)
> 
> In reality, Afghanistan represent less than 1/10 of our Army strength. We can do 1/4 in term of logistic under full mob, not in a war like in Afghanistan.


Sigh. Are you also suggesting that US lost intentionally? By the way since you jumped in without reading anything, USA was brought in response to an indian troll saying that not being able to defeat taliban means Pakistan is not a professional military, surely by that standard even USA does not have a professional military.
By the way since you mentioned, US presence in Afghanistan did have a significant portion of US military stuck in Afghanistan. US follows a two simultaneous wars policy, so if there was to be a 3rd war, they would have had to move troops from either of the two frontlines.



Syama Ayas said:


> How does MAD represent victory for Pakistan?
> Suicide bomber mentality does not work in case of nuclear war


Did i say it is a victory for Pakistan?


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## Jaanbaz

Such a childish thread and childish title.


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## thrilainmanila

on paper in the past when pakistan was a stronger country 1960s and 1970s they had a great chance at beating india in a war but we failed twice, 1965 was not a victory but a failure(the objective of taking kashmir failed and in turned into a defensive war). whenever we fought india we suffered higher casualties then there side we are a smaller nation and we can't afford such losses, we need to score a minimum of a 2:1 casualty ratio against the enemy. so no with pakstan being in the economic and social turmoil its in and with our airforce not being near as good as it was in the 60s,70s and 80s we have little chance of a sucessful war against a more modern foe who outnumbers us and outguns us. Let me put something in prespective to you the mirage III/V which the PAF had back in the 60s/70s was like a 4.5 generation fighter you could compare it to the rafale/eurofighter of today, yet it still didn't make a difference in the end. In 2015 what do we have? JF-17? don't kid me.


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## jhungary

SipahSalar said:


> Sigh. Are you also suggesting that US lost intentionally? By the way since you jumped in without reading anything, USA was brought in response to an indian troll saying that not being able to defeat taliban means Pakistan is not a professional military, surely by that standard even USA does not have a professional military.
> By the way since you mentioned, US presence in Afghanistan did have a significant portion of US military stuck in Afghanistan. US follows a two simultaneous wars policy, so if there was to be a 3rd war, they would have had to move troops from either of the two frontlines.



did we lose? Really?

Tell me what stop the US from getting into Iraq and Afghanistan, and make a mess out of both country and set them back another hundred year?

Our goal is not to destroy Taliban nor destroy Iraqi insurgency, aka ISIS, our goal is to send them this message

You mess with US, and we will come over to you and burn your land and kill your citizen and set your country on fire.

ISIS and Taliban were never "An American Problem" to begin with, if Middle East dont care why do the American have to care? As long as they stay in the middle east and terrorise Miedle Eastern country, American dont care. But if they decide to come to America and start some Jihad again, we can, and WILL go back to Iraq, afghanistan or Any hell hole in this world to F you up, this is the Iraq war and Afghanistan war is about.

Let me ask you this, how many terrorist attack originated by the Middle east happened in Akerica since the Iraq and afghanistan invasion? And how many terrorist attack in the middle east?

the US does not follow a 2 war policy, we follow a global response policy, and in today term, we will first dilute the present and complement with PMC in an operational theater first, if that was not enough to Manage all the war at hand, then we will go for a national service, bear in mind the Draft has already been in Place (Called Selective Service) and even was not used today, the selective mechanism are still currently in place so by a notice of congress, US can fully mobilise within 30 days ( Full mobilise mean every male between 18 to 26 in US being inducted and trained for military service)

The fact that afghanistan represent less than one tenth of US Army operational strength tell you that the operation is not at that stage right now

By the way, are you the one that said Falkland have less than 200 or 400 defender that can be overwhelm with ease by the argie loo?

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## Rashid Mahmood

Actually all the terrorist operations in SW & NW have been a blessing in disguise for our Army. 
They are now the most battle ready then they ever were. 

Peace time exercises cannot provide the level of training as compared to what they have gone through in the last 10 years...
All men and material has been tested, zeroed and ready...

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## DIRECT ACTION

SipahSalar said:


> We don't run away or scare away from a fight. Pakistan wouldn't exist if that were the case.



yes you did that. pakistan exists because of india's too soft policy towards pakistan.. all prime ministers except Indra ghandi maintain a soft policy towards pakistan. india always initiate peace talk with Pakistan. even your former military officers agreed that india never wants to attack pakistan. it was pakistan who thinks that india is looking for chances to destabilize pakistan. if india wants to destroy pakistan then we would had had done it in 71. we let let your soldiers(PoW) go free.. pakistan exists because its enemy, india is too soft while dealing with her enemy.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Actually all the terrorist operations in SW & NW have been a blessing in disguise for our Army.
> *They are now the most battle ready then they ever were. *
> 
> Peace time exercises cannot provide the level of training as compared to what they have gone through in the last 10 years...
> All men and material has been tested, zeroed and ready...



Pakistani military will conduct COIN operations against Indian military?

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## jarves

SipahSalar said:


> Does it matter whether they use police or army? Insurgency is insurgency. it's just that Indians choose to be foolish and accept half measures that's why their police is suffering heavy casulties and much of central Indian states are under Maoists control..


I never said that there is no insurgency,just that unlike PA we dont use brute fore against our own people.Check out how IA has defeated terrorists in Kashmir without bombing them with Sukhoi's or using heavy firepower of artilleries and then check out the casuality figures and ultimate failures of Pakistani army in last ten years,this may help you in getting out of your delusions.


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## SpArK

......-LOL-...............

The hunger for war and to fight has made the country lag in most aspects creating social, economical,diplomatic,development paralysis mess that is looming straight in the face.

Maybe its time to give peace, development and progress a chance for atleast once ....since the creation of the nation,

Its never too late and its better late than never.


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## PoKeMon

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Actually all the terrorist operations in SW & NW have been a blessing in disguise for our Army.
> They are now the most battle ready then they ever were.
> 
> Peace time exercises cannot provide the level of training as compared to what they have gone through in the last 10 years...
> All men and material has been tested, zeroed and ready...



Fighting rag tag militia tribal make PA operational ready??

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## I.R.A

Indian Patriot said:


> The Pakistanis cannot fight an organised army, never mind "big army like India". The reason Pakistan invested so heavily in "non-state actors" like Taliban, LeT, JuD etc. is because the army needed scapegoats to bind India in one place while they plan strategic moves. Unfortunately Pakistan did never calculate about a certain OBL and the effects of 9/11. The Taliban felt betrayed by Pakistan siding with US and now you have a civil war in Pakistan which is unlikely to end because the rebels have emotional and ideological support from conservative Pakistani society.
> 
> The Pakistani army has been a flop show in their zarb e azb, yes the Pakistanis are pounding furiously at rebel cities with bombardment and air power. But the Pakistanis forgot what they had been shouting to USA all along, indiscriminate bombing only adds numbers to rebel cause. To kill 10 militants Pakistan bombards an entire village killing 10 militants and 100 civilians with them. 10 years has passed but the end of Pakistani civil war is still not in sight. One commander dies, another one comes up to take his place. More and more ground has been lost by Pakistan in the war and the casualties simply keep mounting.
> 
> A "professional" army that cannot defeat taliban in their own backyard cannot make such lofty claims.



I thought you were a reasonable person, but look what you did. I have not read such an ignorant poster in recent days.
@Razia Sultana and you

The thing is first I did not want to say this but, you know "Ub Mujay yeh kehay bagair khana Hazam nahi ho ga". How much time Indians took to complete that Mumbai op? I think it lingered on for days and Pakistan forces on other hand have been completing such ops in hours. Pakistan forces cleared Swat area in record time, and if someday you can take out sometime do study Pakistan's map and look at NW area, then may be I will consider you worth of discussing Zarb E Azab. Otherwise don't just rant here just to feed your BIG INDIAN EGO. And with changes in this region I see India as the biggest looser in Afghanistan (if you understand what I said).


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## Shiji Forces

If anyone here has ever been at the rank of a four star general and served in the Special Forces for more than half his life then come forward please. And if not than keep your traps shut! 
Thank You!


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## Rashid Mahmood

Syama Ayas said:


> Pakistani military will conduct COIN operations against Indian military?



Have you ever faced a real bullet..?
If yes then you can make out what I meant.

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## I.R.A

jbgt90 said:


> You are right.
> 
> I do not believe that the leadership in both countries is as foolish as some members here who throw the nuke equation at the drop of a hat.



And thank God our keyboards don't have an option of Nuke strike

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## SipahSalar

DIRECT ACTION said:


> yes you did that. pakistan exists because of india's too soft policy towards pakistan..


Sure bud, enjoy your ride on the unicorn.


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## SrNair

Army is always prepared for meet the security threats.Be it Pakistan Army or Indian Army..Size is not factor in there.You can attack or defend anyone.But its outcome will decide whether you are right or wrong.


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## T90TankGuy

Color_Less_Sky said:


> And thank God our keyboards don't have an option of Nuke strike


If we did we all would be dead a thousand times over by now

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## Qasim Asif

SAMEET said:


> koi pakwan ya mithai ka naam lagta hai ZArb e Azb !



"Zarb" in Urdu means a cut or gash to be more specific, while Azb is the name of the sword of Prophet. 

If you lack simple language skills; I can't help you, brother.


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## metronome

Pomegranate said:


>


from the horse's mouth, folks ... "offensive hum nahi kar sakte.." <- lesson he learnt from Kargil 

challo badhiya hai, humey bhi nahi karna koi offensive 

kiss Kashmir goodbye forever


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## SecularNationalist

jbgt90 said:


> You are right.
> 
> I do not believe that the leadership in both countries is as foolish as some members here who throw the nuke equation at the drop of a hat.


Dude most posters here are nothing more than irrational trolls .Despite being that much hate and daily killings at LOC still there is something which is stopping us from going into a full scale war.Because the military establishment on both sides know there will be no winners. We must learn to get along with each other if we want to prosper and exist.

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## Indian Patriot

SipahSalar said:


> Wow, this is a conspiracy. You should call every news organization and tell them that American generals are intentionally losing, and siding with the enemy, don't forget to provide them with proof. They are traitors to the American people, enemy of the state and should be court-martialed and executed....



You guys have a habit of sniffing controversies everywhere, LOL!!

WHO TOLD YOU AMERICA IS LOSING?

Only you guys in Pakistan would thinking America is losing the war or has lost the war. For the rest of the educated world it is very clear as day that America won and both saddam and taliban were defeated. 



SipahSalar said:


> Ok you keep saying destroyed Taliban and destroyed Saddam Hussein like an old record player. Open your eyes. Taliban is still there. Isis is still there. Americans meanwhile are not.
> 1971 was a war of independance by Bengalis. If you want to go that far back go 20 years further to 1947 when your hindustan was split into three pieces.



Just like you keep repeating that America somehow lost the war. Taliban is there in pakistan not in afghanistan. In afghanistan it is the govt. ruling Kabul. The taliban is now powerless thanks to America. In case they did not tell you in pakistan the taliban used to control 90% of afghanistan before Americans arrived. Now the taliban have less than 9% territory under their thumb. That's why they shifted base to pakistan. 

ISIS is a terror outfit sponsored by middle east and being bombed by the US. ISIS is not saddam hussein irrespective of what they tell you in pakistan. 

Thank God Hindustan was split in three pieces, at least taliban is now not an Indian problem.


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## I.R.A

metronome said:


> from the horse's mouth, folks ... "offensive hum nahi kar sakte.." <- lesson he learnt from Kargil
> 
> challo badhiya hai, humey bhi nahi karna koi offensive
> 
> kiss Kashmir goodbye forever



The day you move back an inch from Kashmir, India will be divided in many small parts on map. Do ask this some sane knowledgeable Indian someday, who understands the ground realities and keeps a balance between his patriotism and reality normally.


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## Londonlight

Fighting is not a problem for Pakistan , Winning is problem

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## Stephen Cohen

General Musharraf would do a big favour to Pakistanis IF
he declared the COMPARATIVE size and strength of Indian Army and Pakistani Army

Then LET the members decide whether he is saying the truth or not


----------



## Indian Patriot

Color_Less_Sky said:


> I thought you were a reasonable person, but look what you did. I have not read such an ignorant poster in recent days.
> @Razia Sultana and you



You break my heart. 



Color_Less_Sky said:


> The thing is first I did not want to say this but, you know "Ub Mujay yeh kehay bagair khana Hazam nahi ho ga". How much time Indians took to complete that Mumbai op? I think it lingered on for days and Pakistan forces on other hand have been completing such ops in hours. Pakistan forces cleared Swat area in record time, and if someday you can take out sometime do study Pakistan's map and look at NW area, then may be I will consider you worth of discussing Zarb E Azab. Otherwise don't just rant here just to feed your BIG INDIAN EGO. And with changes in this region I see India as the biggest looser in Afghanistan (if you understand what I said).



It took three days to clear Mumbai because the attackers were locked up in a 5 star hotel which consisted of foreign tourists and guests who were trapped as hostages. It took time to locate them, neutralising them was not tough. Neutralizing them while ensuring foreign lives were not lost were the main concern. 

W-H-E-N did pakistan ever face a Mumbai like situation? 

W-H-E-N did you clear SWAT? If the pakistani forces are so tough and brilliant the operation zarb e azb would have been over by now. What has the map of your country got to do with anything? It is not a foreign army, it is your own army in your own country. Are you suggesting that your army has no clue about the geography and topography of their own country? 

Indian interests will stay secure in afghanistan. But Pakistan will suffer a huge disaster if taliban ever came to power. More so after the taliban swore allegiance to ISIS.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## FARAZ TIRMIZI

PAKISTAN NEVER DEPENDS ON QUANTITY OR POWER. WE LOVE DEATH AS THEY LOVE WINE


----------



## I.R.A

Indian Patriot said:


> You guys have a habit of sniffing controversies everywhere, LOL!!
> 
> WHO TOLD YOU AMERICA IS LOSING?
> 
> Only you guys in Pakistan would thinking America is losing the war or has lost the war. For the rest of the educated world it is very clear as day that America won and both saddam and taliban were defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Just like you keep repeating that America somehow lost the war. Taliban is there in pakistan not in afghanistan. In afghanistan it is the govt. ruling Kabul. The taliban is now powerless thanks to America. In case they did not tell you in pakistan the taliban used to control 90% of afghanistan before Americans arrived. Now the taliban have less than 9% territory under their thumb. That's why they shifted base to pakistan.
> 
> ISIS is a terror outfit sponsored by middle east and being bombed by the US. ISIS is not saddam hussein irrespective of what they tell you in pakistan.
> 
> Thank God Hindustan was split in three pieces, at least taliban is now not an Indian problem.



Come on dude stop it man, unlike you we don't watch American news channels, hence we are less deluded. The only thing that helped Americans to continue these invasions was their controlled media. A hard learnt lesson from Vietnam.

Americans came in Afghanistan with an understanding that it will be over soon, they will achieve their objectives and that would be it. Taliban of Afghanistan fought them with "You have the watches we have the time" attitude and guess what Americans ran out of time on their watches, now they are looking for safe honorable exit. And for Goodness Sake try doing some research on Afghanistan Taliban and TTP and learn the difference between two.

American invasion of Iraq was based on pile of lies (WMD), they messed big time there. They lost 20+ seals in a dubious op in Pakistan.


----------



## Indian Patriot

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Come on dude stop it man, unlike you we don't watch American news channels, hence we are less deluded. The only thing that helped Americans to continue these invasions was their controlled media. A hard learnt lesson from Vietnam.
> 
> Americans came in Afghanistan with an understanding that it will be over soon, they will achieve their objectives and that would be it. Taliban of Afghanistan fought them with "You have the watches we have the time" attitude and guess what Americans ran out of time on their watches, now they are looking for safe honorable exit. And for Goodness Sake try doing some research on Afghanistan Taliban and TTP and learn the difference between two.
> 
> American invasion of Iraq was based on pile of lies (WMD), they messed big time there. They lost 20+ seals in a dubious op in Pakistan.



So according to you American channels are liars and only Pakistani ones are honest? How does that make sense?

America did not land in Afghanistan to rule over the country, they came to defeat the taliban which they did. There is no difference between taliban and TTP. 

LOL, the Americans did not lose 20 SEALs in an operation in Pakistan. They raided Abottabad, killed OBL and made off with his body.


----------



## indianBong

Pomegranate said:


> @A.Rafay @Ahmad1996 @Akheilos @Armstrong @arushbhai @AstanoshKhan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @balixd @batmannow @Bilal. @chauvunist @Crypto @Dr. Stranglove @Evil Flare @EyanKhan @Fahad Khan 2 @GIANTsasquatch @graphican @Green Arrow @Guleen Ahmed @HRK @Jazzbot @Junaid B @Jzaib @Khalidr @khawaja07 @Leader @Luftwaffe @mr42O @Muhammad Omar @nomi007 @Pak123 @Pakistani shaheens @Pakistanisage @Peaceful Civilian @pkuser2k12 @Pukhtoon @PWFI @raazh @Rafael @Rashid Mahmood @RescueRanger @Saifkhan12 @SHAMK9 @Spy Master @Stealth @Strike X @SUPARCO @sur @syedali73 @Tameem @Tayyab1796 @Zarvan @waleed3601 @AdeelFaheem @Rajput_Pakistani @Men in Green @IceCold @LoveIcon @razahassan1997 @Dil Pakistan @asq @junaid hamza @Pukhtoon @jamahir @Strigon @Rafi @Ulla @HughSlaman @420canada @sathya @slapshot @raza_888 @hacsan
> @SBD-3 @cb4 @AsianUnion @Aether @Proudpakistaniguy @Waffen SS @FaujHistorian @Fracker @Ranches @ghoul @Jf Thunder @GreenFalcon @genmirajborgza786 @orangzaib @Pakistani Exile @KURUMAYA @Irfan Baloch @ali_raza @Syed.Ali.Haider @dexter @Patriots @muslim_pakistani @W.11 @Meengla @zaid butt @ajpirzada @Shoaib Rathore @OrionHunter @CHARGER @Major Sam @yesboss @TheNoob @Bratva @ghazaliy2k @Viny @StormShadow @suresh1773 @SOHEIL @venu309 @danish_vij @Force-India @faisal6309 @S.U.R.B. @vsdave2302 @jarves @WAJsal @pursuit of happiness @Winchester @janon @pak-marine @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> @Etilla @SpArK @Srinivas @desert warrior @DRAY @pumkinduke @wolfpack @pursuit of happiness @danish_vij @rubyjackass @Star Wars @Ammyy @bloo @Marxist @karan.1970 @Not Sure @Arav_Rana @Avik274 @SamantK @Major Shaitan Singh @Omega007 @farhan_9909 @haviZsultan @Sidak @ranjeet @Yogijaat @ravi Nair @WAR-rior @halupridol @he-man @Indrani @Mike_Brando @SarthakGanguly @sreekumar @OrionHunter @lightoftruth @Water Car Engineer @indiatester @Ind4Ever @13 komaun @anant_s @itachiii @SwAggeR @Brahmos_2 @Blue_Eyes @bhangi bava @SAMEET @naveen mishra @Bagha @utraash @Chanakya's_Chant @Krate M @gslv mk3 @r1_vns @blood @noksss @kurup @PARIKRAMA @thesolar65 @Rohit Patel @wolfschanzze @levina @vostok @rahi2357 @Norwegian , , @razahassan1997 , @Leader , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Horus @Jazzbot @Norwegian @pkuser2k12 @Fahad Khan 2 @Spring Onion Onion @chauvunist @Pukhtoon @Jzaib @Pakistan Shaheen @karakoram




why think of war???? think of peace....


----------



## I.R.A

Indian Patriot said:


> You break my heart.



That was your own doing. Don't blame me.



Indian Patriot said:


> It took three days to clear Mumbai because the attackers were locked up in a 5 star hotel which consisted of foreign tourists and guests who were trapped as hostages. It took time to locate them, neutralising them was not tough. Neutralizing them while ensuring foreign lives were not lost were the main concern.
> 
> W-H-E-N did pakistan ever face a Mumbai like situation?



Seriously?



Indian Patriot said:


> W-H-E-N did you clear SWAT? If the pakistani forces are so tough and brilliant the operation zarb e azb would have been over by now. What has the map of your country got to do with anything? It is not a foreign army, it is your own army in your own country. Are you suggesting that your army has no clue about the geography and topography of their own country?



You know that Swat is a city in Pakistan and not that SWAT which we see in Hollywood movies? For rest of your post I would suggest you first have a look at operation area, its terrain and then come back tell me how our bodybuilder army is taking so long. You know as a case study just refer LTTE in Sri Lanka or Khalistan in Indian Punjab and then compare Zarb E Azb. 



Indian Patriot said:


> Indian interests will stay secure in afghanistan. But Pakistan will suffer a huge disaster if taliban ever came to power. More so after the taliban swore allegiance to ISIS.



You clearly have no idea what you are saying. Won't go into details here.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Paksanity

Nature of conflict evolves with time. It will be different this time. Let us spend some time on how a conflict is likely to take place between India and Pakistan.

Indian decision maker is aware of nuclear weapons on both sides. Last thing they would want to do is to push Pakistan to its nuclear threshold. Which means no large scale sustain war. Attempting to capture large cities or destroying large portion of Pakistan military machine. Those talks about splitting Pakistan? are just fancy talks. There are nuclear weapons with us and Indians live very close by. So this leaves options of coercion, using non state actors like TTP, BLA etc, economic strangulation, encirclement of Pakistan, firing on LOC, naval intimidation, some surgical strikes and shallow incursions at LOC, or in case of larger conflict at international borders. Aim of all this is to make people of Pakistan believe that Pak Military can not defend the state, subversion and intimidation. In short to break the morale and spirit of Pakistani nation and make them subservient to Indian desires.

So how Pak military is ready to fight this? Well, first of all they would not be looking at something like capturing Delhi our something of this sort. They have to blunt Indian offensive and keep their nukes ready to fire. For that, policy is simple. Bleed them. And that they can do very well. Indian army knows the price associated with an adventure. Keep in mind that they can not throw their full weight in this war. Nuclear Pakistan does not allow that. Then a considerable portion of to be kept for northern border. Unlike war in 1971, this time our soldiers will be fighting right next to their home towns. There will be much ferocity in their resistance. In an effort to humiliate Pak army, Indian military can very well end up getting humiliated. It is a big gamble and they are not ready to play at the moment.

Result is what you are seeing at the moment. Intimidation, proxies, strangulation attempts, encirclement attempts, cover Intel ops, buying off media persons to attack Pak military etc.. With nuclear weapons that's all they are likely to do. If they do any further, PA will throw full weight and if its not working, go nuclear. India will respond nuclear. Pakistan will respond nuclear again and so on...

But wait a minute. Here is the catch. As soon as things start to move in direction of conflict, nuclear war becomes a real possibility. Given the proximity of both states, it will just take minutes for nuclear exchange to take place. And the real world knows that. No one wants to stay in a nuclear fall out zone. Foreign investors will flick out in "the great Indian exodus" the moment India starts rattling war. That is a really big price to pay. India knows it.

So, yes. Pak army looks pretty much ready to take on Indian army. To me at least.

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## metronome

Color_Less_Sky said:


> The day you move back an inch from Kashmir, India will be divided in many small parts on map. Do ask this some sane knowledgeable Indian someday, who understands the ground realities and keeps a balance between his patriotism and reality normally.


I understand the ground realities in India better than you. 

I'm not in favor of any war between us, maybe you should read my post again.. I was just quoting what gen Musharraf himself said in the video in the OP. watch 1:50 onward, or, in case it's banned for you and you don't know proxy/tor etc... he says clearly "_*hum offensive nahi kar sakengey, hum countre offensive karengey.. inko aaney do..*_"


----------



## Bobby

Pakistan cant even think of conventional war with its pathetic economy.


----------



## I.R.A

Indian Patriot said:


> So according to you American channels are liars and only Pakistani ones are honest? How does that make sense?



I never mentioned Pakistani channels by the way, so make whatever sense you want to.



Indian Patriot said:


> America did not land in Afghanistan to rule over the country, they came to defeat the taliban which they did. There is no difference between taliban and TTP.



Okay I thought they said they wanted OBL. And have they killed Afghan Taliban?

Did you know America itself declared head of TTP as terrorist recently and on the other hand tried to tell the world that Afghan Taliban are not terrorists but insurgents? Do you see a difference?



Indian Patriot said:


> LOL, the Americans did not lose 20 SEALs in an operation in Pakistan. They raided Abottabad, killed OBL and made off with his body.



Did you ever see a body, just answer me this and I will agree to rest of your post.


----------



## metronome

FARAZ TIRMIZI said:


> WE LOVE DEATH AS THEY LOVE WINE


wut ? LOL


----------



## Indian Patriot

Color_Less_Sky said:


> That was your own doing. Don't blame me.



Fine then, I will learn to live with heart-break. 



Color_Less_Sky said:


> Seriously?



Very much. WHEN was Pakistani under attack from cross-border terrorists who held foreign tourists hostage?



Color_Less_Sky said:


> You know that Swat is a city in Pakistan and not that SWAT which we see in Hollywood movies? For rest of your post I would suggest you first have a look at operation area, its terrain and then come back tell me how our bodybuilder army is taking so long. You know as a case study just refer LTTE in Sri Lanka or Khalistan in Indian Punjab and then compare Zarb E Azb.



I was confused, thanks for clarifying about the SWAT. 

A country's army trains in its territory, it is a different matter that Pakistani army needs to ask permission from tribal chiefs to enter tribal territory. Your army never trained there, never ventured there and possibly never mapped those regions. An army is expected to know their own country like the back of their hand with every lake, river, ravine, forest, desert clearly mapped. How else are you supposed to fight an invading army them? 

The Sri Lankans defeated LTTE in three years flat, your war has been going for last ten years. Khalistan terror group is dead as well. 



Color_Less_Sky said:


> You clearly have no idea what you are saying. Won't go into details here.



Ok.


----------



## waz

IND_PAK said:


> Fighting rag tag militia tribal make PA operational ready??



The Taliban are nothing remotely resembling a "rag tag" militia.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## indianBong

Paksanity said:


> Nature of conflict evolves with time. It will be different this time. Let us spend some time on how a conflict is likely to take place between India and Pakistan.
> 
> Indian decision maker is aware of nuclear weapons on both sides. Last thing they would want to do is to push Pakistan to its nuclear threshold. Which means no large scale sustain war. Attempting to capture large cities or destroying large portion of Pakistan military machine. Those talks about splitting Pakistan? are just fancy talks. There are nuclear weapons with us and Indians live very close by. So this leaves options of coercion, using non state actors like TTP, BLA etc, economic strangulation, encirclement of Pakistan, firing on LOC, naval intimidation, some surgical strikes and shallow incursions at LOC, or in case of larger conflict at international borders. Aim of all this is to make people of Pakistan believe that Pak Military can not defend the state, subversion and intimidation. In short to break the morale and spirit of Pakistani nation and make them subservient to Indian desires.
> 
> So how Pak military is ready to fight this? Well, first of all they would not be looking at something like capturing Delhi our something of this sort. They have to blunt Indian offensive and keep their nukes ready to fire. For that, policy is simple. Bleed them. And that they can do very well. Indian army knows the price associated with an adventure. Keep in mind that they can not throw their full weight in this war. Nuclear Pakistan does not allow that. Then a considerable portion of to be kept for northern border. Unlike war in 1971, this time our soldiers will be fighting right next to their home towns. There will be much ferocity in their resistance. In an effort to humiliate Pak army, Indian military can very well end up getting humiliated. It is a big gamble and they are not ready to play at the moment.
> 
> Result is what you are seeing at the moment. Intimidation, proxies, strangulation attempts, encirclement attempts, cover Intel ops, buying off media persons to attack Pak military etc.. With nuclear weapons that's all they are likely to do. If they do any further, PA will throw full weight and if its not working, go nuclear. India will respond nuclear. Pakistan will respond nuclear again and so on...
> 
> But wait a minute. Here is the catch. As soon as things start to move in direction of conflict, nuclear war becomes a real possibility. Given the proximity of both states, it will just take minutes for nuclear exchange to take place. And the real world knows that. No one wants to stay in a nuclear fall out zone. Foreign investors will flick out in "the great Indian exodus" the moment India starts rattling war. That is a really big price to pay. India knows it.
> 
> So, yes. Pak army looks pretty much ready to take on Indian army. To me at least.



last time i checked india pak trade was over 2billion dollar with a potential of 20billion dollar... do you think leadership of both country will go to a war and destroy the economy jus to make warmongers happy???


----------



## singh sahab

Nawaba said:


> *You collective rapists* are a joke and entirely make a joke out of yourselves. Your nation is the size of an *elephant's gand*, yet here you are threatening Pakistanis.
> 
> Ja dub ke mar ja putra. You Indians can not even touch a Pakistani's hair, even under Modi. General Raheel would make Modi comb his mustache. Na mard salaay.


@Manticore Remember what you said about trolling? And abusing? I dare you to kick this fellow out.

@mods Please take care of this troll. He is blatantly abusing and trolling.


----------



## Indian Patriot

Color_Less_Sky said:


> I never mentioned Pakistani channels by the way, so make whatever sense you want to.



You made a point that only Pakistanis have access to truth while rest are fed lies. How do you back your claim?



Color_Less_Sky said:


> Okay I thought they said they wanted OBL. And have they killed Afghan Taliban?



They did want OBL , they were just searching for him in the wrong country. They have defeated taliban for sure. And there are rumors that USA might leave a small contingent behind in Afghanistan. Not good news for Pakistan.



Color_Less_Sky said:


> Did you know America itself declared head of TTP as terrorist recently and on the other hand tried to tell the world that Afghan Taliban are not terrorists but insurgents? Do you see a difference?



You seem to have developed a high opinion on American claims when they suit your version of truth. Taliban and TTP are the same, one fights in Afghanistan the other in Pakistan.



Color_Less_Sky said:


> Did you ever see a body, just answer me this and I will agree to rest of your post.



I was not invited to Abottabad. I told them I was very pissed of because of that.


----------



## I.R.A

metronome said:


> I understand the ground realities in India better than you.
> 
> I'm not in favor of any war between us, maybe you should read my post again.. I was just quoting what gen Musharraf himself said in the video in the OP. watch 1:50 onward, or, in case it's banned for you and you don't know proxy/tor etc... he says clearly "_*hum offensive nahi kar sakengey, hum countre offensive karengey.. inko aaney do..*_"



My reply was Kashmir specific only. And mainly to do with why India cannot afford to move back an inch from Kashmir. If you do move we won't need any offensive or defensive for what I said originally.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

waz said:


> The Taliban are nothing remotely resembling a "rag tag" militia.


The "rag tag militia" pretty much ravaged NATO for 14 years n is still strong..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Srinivas

FARAZ TIRMIZI said:


> PAKISTAN NEVER DEPENDS ON QUANTITY OR POWER. WE LOVE DEATH AS THEY LOVE WINE



Loving death is not enough, It takes survival instincts combined with some degree of fear to win !


----------



## T90TankGuy

SecularNationalist said:


> Dude most posters here are nothing more than irrational trolls .Despite being that much hate and daily killings at LOC still there is something which is stopping us from going into a full scale war.Because the military establishment on both sides know there will be no winners. We must learn to get along with each other if we want to prosper and exist.


Love the way you think mate

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## Paksanity

indianBong said:


> last time i checked india pak trade was over 2billion dollar with a potential of 20billion dollar... do you think leadership of both country will go to a war and destroy the economy jus to make warmongers happy???



That's what I said. Price is too heavy to pay for both. And this what our policy is. To raise the price so high that India would not consider war as an option. This is exactly how we are ready to take on Indian military assault. By not letting it happen.


----------



## Armstrong

Jarha said:


> I personally respect Musharraf for his on the face attitude.
> 
> But now a days he is trying his best to please establishment so that some sort of concession would be granted for his release. I pity his condition.



Forget what Mushy said; who's that in your avatar ?


----------



## Shiji Forces

Srinivas said:


> Loving death is not enough, It takes survival instincts combined with some degree of fear to win !


How do you defeat an enemy that looks at the end of your barrel and sees heaven?


----------



## Indian Patriot

Shiji Forces said:


> How do you defeat an enemy that looks at the end of your barrel and sees heaven?



By shooting them?


----------



## metronome

Paksanity said:


> Nature of conflict evolves with time. It will be different this time. Let us spend some time on how a conflict is likely to take place between India and Pakistan.
> 
> Indian decision maker is aware of nuclear weapons on both sides. Last thing they would want to do is to push Pakistan to its nuclear threshold. Which means no large scale sustain war. Attempting to capture large cities or destroying large portion of Pakistan military machine. Those talks about splitting Pakistan? are just fancy talks. There are nuclear weapons with us and Indians live very close by. So this leaves options of coercion, using non state actors like TTP, BLA etc, economic strangulation, encirclement of Pakistan, firing on LOC, naval intimidation, some surgical strikes and shallow incursions at LOC, or in case of larger conflict at international borders. Aim of all this is to make people of Pakistan believe that Pak Military can not defend the state, subversion and intimidation. In short to break the morale and spirit of Pakistani nation and make them subservient to Indian desires.
> 
> So how Pak military is ready to fight this? Well, first of all they would not be looking at something like capturing Delhi our something of this sort. They have to blunt Indian offensive and keep their nukes ready to fire. For that, policy is simple. Bleed them. And that they can do very well. Indian army knows the price associated with an adventure. Keep in mind that they can not throw their full weight in this war. Nuclear Pakistan does not allow that. Then a considerable portion of to be kept for northern border. Unlike war in 1971, this time our soldiers will be fighting right next to their home towns. There will be much ferocity in their resistance. In an effort to humiliate Pak army, Indian military can very well end up getting humiliated. It is a big gamble and they are not ready to play at the moment.
> 
> Result is what you are seeing at the moment. Intimidation, proxies, strangulation attempts, encirclement attempts, cover Intel ops, buying off media persons to attack Pak military etc.. With nuclear weapons that's all they are likely to do. If they do any further, PA will throw full weight and if its not working, go nuclear. India will respond nuclear. Pakistan will respond nuclear again and so on...
> 
> But wait a minute. Here is the catch. As soon as things start to move in direction of conflict, nuclear war becomes a real possibility. Given the proximity of both states, it will just take minutes for nuclear exchange to take place. And the real world knows that. No one wants to stay in a nuclear fall out zone. Foreign investors will flick out in "the great Indian exodus" the moment India starts rattling war. That is a really big price to pay. India knows it.
> 
> So, yes. Pak army looks pretty much ready to take on Indian army. To me at least.


so what you're basically saying is, when Pak starts to lose big time in a conventional war.. Indian naval blockade/huge military losses to Pak etc, they'll use the nuke option.. at least you're admitting conventional forces wise, you stand no chance.

I say it's a good thing you have a nuke deterrent, but if both sides were conventional only forces, and as things stand today, a divided Kashmir/"Azad" Kashmir, I would not support an offensive to retake Pakistan administered Kashmir.

Let things be, our focus should be on the economic upliftment of our people.

anyway, aapkey general saab ki assesment sahi hai, ..offensive aap nahi kar saktey 

inshallah koi war nahi honi, and I'll support Pakistan if NATO ever threaten you.


----------



## Indian Patriot

The Japanese sent waves after waves of suicide attacks. They were the first army to use suicide attacks in post-industrial era. It did not do them any good. Their country surrendered and lost the war.


----------



## Yaduveer

Armstrong said:


> Forget what Mushy said; who's that in your avatar ?



Guess guess !


----------



## Shiji Forces

Indian Patriot said:


> By shooting them?


Giving rise to more of the same people? How many will you be able to kill? 
Soviets replied the same! But remember Hydra "Kill one head and two spawn to take it's place"


----------



## Armstrong

Jarha said:


> Guess guess !



Guess ? Mujhe kaiseii pataa ho ga ?


----------



## Indian Patriot

Shiji Forces said:


> Giving rise to more of the same people? How many will you be able to kill?
> Soviets replied the same! But remember Hydra "Kill one head and two spawn to take it's place"



Stop this fake bravado already. If people don't fear death then why do they start crying when they are killed? 

P.S. - Pakistan is also fighting TTP which loves death more than you love cricket. How do you fight them?



Jarha said:


> Guess guess !



That's you?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Indian Patriot said:


> Fine then, I will learn to live with heart-break.
> 
> 
> 
> Very much. WHEN was Pakistani under attack from cross-border terrorists who held foreign tourists hostage?



karachi airport attacks,red mosque,APS peshawar etc etc.. Even these places had thousands of hostages with dozens (in red mosques case hundreds) of heavily armed suicide bombers who..


> I was confused, thanks for clarifying about the SWAT.



Swat was taken in months .. Back in 2009. And we do have SWAT teams which you were thinking about .. The newly raised one is called CTF .. Trained by SSG,Tirkish police commandos ... 



> A country's army trains in its territory, it is a different matter that Pakistani army needs to ask permission from tribal chiefs to enter tribal territory. Your army never trained there, never ventured there and possibly never mapped those regions. An army is expected to know their own country like the back of their hand with every lake, river, ravine, forest, desert clearly mapped. How else are you supposed to fight an invading army them?



What are you stupid ? When did PAK Army ask the permission of tribal chiefs? It was due to the govts pussy footing (thT was scared of blow back from mil operations) that was a hurdle.


> The Sri Lankans defeated LTTE in three years flat, your war has been going for last ten years. Khalistan terror group is dead as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.


It took SL 30 years to go after LTTE .. who which was an ethnic insurgency ... And confined to a specific area bordered by nothing but sea .. It took 14 years for 44-45 countries aka NATO in Afghanistan to admit defeat and start negotiations with Afghan Taliban for power sharing. 

You don't know yak about taliban or the ideology or even the terrain and challenges ۔۔۔

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## kaku1

Pomegranate said:


> @A.Rafay @Ahmad1996 @Akheilos @Armstrong @arushbhai @AstanoshKhan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @balixd @batmannow @Bilal. @chauvunist @Crypto @Dr. Stranglove @Evil Flare @EyanKhan @Fahad Khan 2 @GIANTsasquatch @graphican @Green Arrow @Guleen Ahmed @HRK @Jazzbot @Junaid B @Jzaib @Khalidr @khawaja07 @Leader @Luftwaffe @mr42O @Muhammad Omar @nomi007 @Pak123 @Pakistani shaheens @Pakistanisage @Peaceful Civilian @pkuser2k12 @Pukhtoon @PWFI @raazh @Rafael @Rashid Mahmood @RescueRanger @Saifkhan12 @SHAMK9 @Spy Master @Stealth @Strike X @SUPARCO @sur @syedali73 @Tameem @Tayyab1796 @Zarvan @waleed3601 @AdeelFaheem @Rajput_Pakistani @Men in Green @IceCold @LoveIcon @razahassan1997 @Dil Pakistan @asq @junaid hamza @Pukhtoon @jamahir @Strigon @Rafi @Ulla @HughSlaman @420canada @sathya @slapshot @raza_888 @hacsan
> @SBD-3 @cb4 @AsianUnion @Aether @Proudpakistaniguy @Waffen SS @FaujHistorian @Fracker @Ranches @ghoul @Jf Thunder @GreenFalcon @genmirajborgza786 @orangzaib @Pakistani Exile @KURUMAYA @Irfan Baloch @ali_raza @Syed.Ali.Haider @dexter @Patriots @muslim_pakistani @W.11 @Meengla @zaid butt @ajpirzada @Shoaib Rathore @OrionHunter @CHARGER @Major Sam @yesboss @TheNoob @Bratva @ghazaliy2k @Viny @StormShadow @suresh1773 @SOHEIL @venu309 @danish_vij @Force-India @faisal6309 @S.U.R.B. @vsdave2302 @jarves @WAJsal @pursuit of happiness @Winchester @janon @pak-marine @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> @Etilla @SpArK @Srinivas @desert warrior @DRAY @pumkinduke @wolfpack @pursuit of happiness @danish_vij @rubyjackass @Star Wars @Ammyy @bloo @Marxist @karan.1970 @Not Sure @Arav_Rana @Avik274 @SamantK @Major Shaitan Singh @Omega007 @farhan_9909 @haviZsultan @Sidak @ranjeet @Yogijaat @ravi Nair @WAR-rior @halupridol @he-man @Indrani @Mike_Brando @SarthakGanguly @sreekumar @OrionHunter @lightoftruth @Water Car Engineer @indiatester @Ind4Ever @13 komaun @anant_s @itachiii @SwAggeR @Brahmos_2 @Blue_Eyes @bhangi bava @SAMEET @naveen mishra @Bagha @utraash @Chanakya's_Chant @Krate M @gslv mk3 @r1_vns @blood @noksss @kurup @PARIKRAMA @thesolar65 @Rohit Patel @wolfschanzze @levina @vostok @rahi2357 @Norwegian , , @razahassan1997 , @Leader , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Horus @Jazzbot @Norwegian @pkuser2k12 @Fahad Khan 2 @Spring Onion Onion @chauvunist @Pukhtoon @Jzaib @Pakistan Shaheen @karakoram



Wow,, the PA was also ready for big enemy India during 1999.

Wow, jus wow.

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## waz

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The "rag tag militia" pretty much ravaged NATO for 14 years n is still strong..



Yes those pesky "rag taggers". Shouldn't they have been wiped out in several months?

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## Shiji Forces

Indian Patriot said:


> Stop this fake bravado already. If people don't fear death then why do they start crying when they are killed?
> 
> P.S. - Pakistan is also fighting TTP which loves death more than you love cricket. How do you fight them?


And that's the reason it took so long to destroy them. Guess if TTP which can engage PA for so long imagine what The whole of Pakistan can do to you! And the dead don't cry it's there families that weep why? Because well let's face it it's a loss to the family. 
Plus the Japanese did not surrender till the end. It was the emporer that did, the people even stormed the palace from stopping them to surrender.


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## dray

Well, here is the catch, Gen Musharraf talked about 'fighting', not 'winning'!

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## Agent Smith

Pomegranate said:


> @A.Rafay @Ahmad1996 @Akheilos @Armstrong @arushbhai @AstanoshKhan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @balixd @batmannow @Bilal. @chauvunist @Crypto @Dr. Stranglove @Evil Flare @EyanKhan @Fahad Khan 2 @GIANTsasquatch @graphican @Green Arrow @Guleen Ahmed @HRK @Jazzbot @Junaid B @Jzaib @Khalidr @khawaja07 @Leader @Luftwaffe @mr42O @Muhammad Omar @nomi007 @Pak123 @Pakistani shaheens @Pakistanisage @Peaceful Civilian @pkuser2k12 @Pukhtoon @PWFI @raazh @Rafael @Rashid Mahmood @RescueRanger @Saifkhan12 @SHAMK9 @Spy Master @Stealth @Strike X @SUPARCO @sur @syedali73 @Tameem @Tayyab1796 @Zarvan @waleed3601 @AdeelFaheem @Rajput_Pakistani @Men in Green @IceCold @LoveIcon @razahassan1997 @Dil Pakistan @asq @junaid hamza @Pukhtoon @jamahir @Strigon @Rafi @Ulla @HughSlaman @420canada @sathya @slapshot @raza_888 @hacsan
> @SBD-3 @cb4 @AsianUnion @Aether @Proudpakistaniguy @Waffen SS @FaujHistorian @Fracker @Ranches @ghoul @Jf Thunder @GreenFalcon @genmirajborgza786 @orangzaib @Pakistani Exile @KURUMAYA @Irfan Baloch @ali_raza @Syed.Ali.Haider @dexter @Patriots @muslim_pakistani @W.11 @Meengla @zaid butt @ajpirzada @Shoaib Rathore @OrionHunter @CHARGER @Major Sam @yesboss @TheNoob @Bratva @ghazaliy2k @Viny @StormShadow @suresh1773 @SOHEIL @venu309 @danish_vij @Force-India @faisal6309 @S.U.R.B. @vsdave2302 @jarves @WAJsal @pursuit of happiness @Winchester @janon @pak-marine @AgNoStiC MuSliM
> @Etilla @SpArK @Srinivas @desert warrior @DRAY @pumkinduke @wolfpack @pursuit of happiness @danish_vij @rubyjackass @Star Wars @Ammyy @bloo @Marxist @karan.1970 @Not Sure @Arav_Rana @Avik274 @SamantK @Major Shaitan Singh @Omega007 @farhan_9909 @haviZsultan @Sidak @ranjeet @Yogijaat @ravi Nair @WAR-rior @halupridol @he-man @Indrani @Mike_Brando @SarthakGanguly @sreekumar @OrionHunter @lightoftruth @Water Car Engineer @indiatester @Ind4Ever @13 komaun @anant_s @itachiii @SwAggeR @Brahmos_2 @Blue_Eyes @bhangi bava @SAMEET @naveen mishra @Bagha @utraash @Chanakya's_Chant @Krate M @gslv mk3 @r1_vns @blood @noksss @kurup @PARIKRAMA @thesolar65 @Rohit Patel @wolfschanzze @levina @vostok @rahi2357 @Norwegian , , @razahassan1997 , @Leader , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Horus @Jazzbot @Norwegian @pkuser2k12 @Fahad Khan 2 @Spring Onion Onion @chauvunist @Pukhtoon @Jzaib @Pakistan Shaheen @karakoram



and does pakistan army want to fight india's big army?

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## kaku1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> It took SL 30 years to go after LTTE .. who which was an ethnic insurgency ... And confined to a specific area bordered by nothing but sea .. It took 14 years for 44-45 countries aka NATO in Afghanistan to admit defeat and start negotiations with Afghan Taliban for power sharing.
> 
> You don't know yak about taliban or the ideology or even the terrain and challenges ۔۔۔


Because there was Congress hand behind it. 

But when MMS govt. allowed free hand to Sri Lanka, it took no more then 3 yrs to clean the whole shit. 

Remember an insurgency like Khalistaan movement took 20 yrs to clear out from whole India.


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## Agent Smith

SecularNationalist said:


> Dude most posters here are nothing more than irrational trolls .Despite being that much hate and daily killings at LOC still there is something which is stopping us from going into a full scale war.Because the military establishment on both sides know there will be no winners. We must learn to get along with each other if we want to prosper and exist.



how do you know, you joined today itself since how long you have been following this forum?


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## Yaduveer

Armstrong said:


> Guess ? Mujhe kaiseii pataa ho ga ?



Ye Apne @ranvir sena ki relative hai ..

Sundar hai na !

aur haan bhabhi ki nazar se dekhana ..


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## Shiji Forces

indianBong said:


> naah.... we wont kill.... jus Divide n Rule... let them kill each other....


We may seem divided every now and then but remember nothing increases our bond then any sort of aggression by the Kafir state! 
How much actual experience do you have these matters? Apart from being a keyboard warrior?


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## Paksanity

metronome said:


> so what you're basically saying is, when Pak starts to lose big time in a conventional war.. Indian naval blockade/huge military losses to Pak etc, they'll use the nuke option.. at least you're admitting conventional forces wise, you stand no chance.
> 
> I say it's a good thing you have a nuke deterrent, but if both sides were conventional only forces, and as things stand today, a divided Kashmir/"Azad" Kashmir, I would not support an offensive to retake Pakistan administered Kashmir.
> 
> Let things be, our focus should be on the economic upliftment of our people.
> 
> anyway, aapkey general saab ki assesment sahi hai, ..offensive aap nahi kar saktey
> 
> inshallah koi war nahi honi, and I'll support Pakistan if NATO ever threaten you.



I don't say conventional forces of Pakistan are no match. They will inflict very heavy losses especially in first few days. Indian forces will pay a very heavy price. Also Pak army is quite capable of making incursions into Indian territory and capturing land. But if war prolongs or starts to go bad, then we have nuclear options to fall back on.

You know the thing about war is, you only control the start of it. Then they become unpredictable. It is really not possible to predict the outcome of this kind of war. So I agree with you, lets hope there is no war. There is a great chance that it gets out of control. Whoever starts it.

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## jaatram

DRAY said:


> Well, here is the catch, Gen Musharraf talked about 'fighting', not 'winning'!


Fighting is winning for them. result doesn't matter.


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## kaku1

SecularNationalist said:


> Dude most posters here are nothing more than irrational trolls .Despite being that much hate and daily killings at LOC still there is something which is stopping us from going into a full scale war.Because the military establishment on both sides know there will be no winners. We must learn to get along with each other if we want to prosper and *exist*.


Ohh, I need to find cover,, I am afraid.


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## Indian Patriot

Shiji Forces said:


> Guess if TTP which can engage PA for so long imagine what The whole of Pakistan can do to you!



The whole pakistani army will surrender, what else can they do?


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## Shiji Forces

Indian Patriot said:


> The whole pakistani army will surrender, what else can they do?


It's amazing to see how much you underestimate us!


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## jaatram

Shiji Forces said:


> We may seem divided every now and then but remember nothing increases our bond then any sort of aggression by the Kafir state!
> How much actual experience do you have these matters? Apart from being a keyboard warrior?


half n hour of uninterpreted trolling by Indians on PDF and you will have Pakistanis cursing each other on sectarian and ethnic lines.

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## Yaduveer

jaatram said:


> rao sahab sunao hai aaj chote rao sahab ka tilak hua hai saifai mein ?



Tagda programme chal raha hai ....

Bihar &UP apas main samadhi ho gayen hain


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## Shiji Forces

jaatram said:


> half n hour of uninterpreted trolling by Indians on PDF and you will have Pakistanis cursing each other on sectarian and ethnic lines.


Well I don't have much info about the latter but you are spot on, on the first one! Indians are nothing but trolls!

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## jaatram

Jarha said:


> Tagda programme chal raha hai ....
> 
> Bihar &UP apas main samadhi ho gayen hain


kitna faida milega is risthe ka up bihar ko? kya lagta hai aapko?


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## Indian Patriot

Shiji Forces said:


> It's amazing to see how much you underestimate us!



So what else am I supposed to say?


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## jaatram

Shiji Forces said:


> Well I don't have much info about the latter but you are spot on, on the first one! Indians are nothing but trolls!


should know your enemy better, it just took me couple of posts to create rifts between Pakistanis at times.


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## Shiji Forces

Indian Patriot said:


> So what else am I supposed to say?


Nothing just keep on underestimating!


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## Ray_of_Hope

jaatram said:


> half n hour of uninterpreted trolling by Indians on PDF and you will have Pakistanis cursing each other on sectarian and ethnic lines.


Nope.We will get united against the indian trolls and f**k them


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## Shiji Forces

jaatram said:


> should know your enemy better, it just took me couple of posts to create rifts between Pakistanis at times.


Well I don't think even a master Indian Hindu Troll Such as yourself has the ability to do such damage!


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## indianBong

Shiji Forces said:


> We may seem divided every now and then but remember nothing increases our bond then any sort of aggression by the Kafir state!
> How much actual experience do you have these matters? Apart from being a keyboard warrior?


 
yes bro... we have..... why do u people bring "kafir" word everywhere??


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## Shiji Forces

indianBong said:


> yes bro... we have..... why do u people bring "kafir" word everywhere??


Aren't you a Kafir? A non Believer?


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## Ray_of_Hope

indianBong said:


> yes bro... we have..... why do u people bring "kafir" word everywhere??


You got a problem with that word.....u people don`t like ur own identity


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## Razia Sultana

Color_Less_Sky said:


> I thought you were a reasonable person, but look what you did. I have not read such an ignorant poster in recent days.
> @Razia Sultana and you
> 
> The thing is first I did not want to say this but, you know "Ub Mujay yeh kehay bagair khana Hazam nahi ho ga". How much time Indians took to complete that Mumbai op? I think it lingered on for days and Pakistan forces on other hand have been completing such ops in hours. Pakistan forces cleared Swat area in record time, and if someday you can take out sometime do study Pakistan's map and look at NW area, then may be I will consider you worth of discussing Zarb E Azab. Otherwise don't just rant here just to feed your BIG INDIAN EGO. And with changes in this region I see India as the biggest looser in Afghanistan (if you understand what I said).


I am all for a hot, passionate and mature debate on anything but my only reservation is about use of undignified words, perhaps being a woman I am not comfortable with certain vocabulary and I excuse myself.

Gen. Musharraf, with due regards to his knowledge and experience, is only saying in a generic manner that a smaller army, with a superior strategy, can defeat a larger army. The assumption here is that the bigger army will not have a good strategy and rely only on numerical superiority. Also, the concept of war has changed. More than the numerical or qualitative strength, its the ability to sustain a war that decides the winner. Now a days its more of a psychological superiority in terms of economy,military capabilities and strategic alliances that pre decide the outcome of a war. So even Gen. Musharraf knows that he is being more motivational for his side than being realistic.

The feeling I get is that Pakistan Army is more focussed on tactical, smaller, short term victories than a strategic outcome. Even the nukes are for tactical use. Pak Army's biggest worry in a war with India is whether India will confine to Kashmir or open the war to other sectors as well.

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## I.R.A

Paksanity said:


> I don't say conventional forces of Pakistan are no match. They will inflict very heavy losses especially in first few days. Indian forces will pay a very heavy price. Also Pak army is quite capable of making incursions into Indian territory and capturing land. But if war prolongs or starts to go bad, then we have nuclear options to fall back on.
> 
> You know the thing about war is, you only control the start of it. Then they become unpredictable. It is really not possible to predict the outcome of this kind of war. So I agree with you, lets hope there is no war. There is a great chance that it gets out of control. Whoever starts it.



60km wala patakha kiss din kam ay ga?


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## jaatram

war khan said:


> Nope.We will get united against the indian trolls and f**k them


sure you will. 


Shiji Forces said:


> Well I don't think even a master Indian Hindu Troll Such as yourself has the ability to do such damage!


well you caught me red handed


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## Shiji Forces

war khan said:


> You got a problem with that word.....u people don`t like ur own identity


Actually Indians are! They try to become westernized!
Regarding the bravery posts kinda reminds me of the day after the Wagah attacks! No Bharti to be seen!

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## root

India is no worry for Pakistan if you start war with Pakistan we will turn them back to stone age and make there future generation starve to death.

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## Shiji Forces

jaatram said:


> sure you will.
> 
> well you caught me red handed


Not your fault mate! Can't change collective nature now can you?

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## Yaduveer

jaatram said:


> kitna faida milega is risthe ka up bihar ko? kya lagta hai aapko?



Fayada bahut hai ... UP wale Bihar ke Jija kahlayenge

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## jaatram

Shiji Forces said:


> Not your fault mate! Can't change collective nature now can you?


Oh please you don't even know half of it. Never underestimate evil hindu Chanakya !!!


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## Ray_of_Hope

Shiji Forces said:


> Regarding the bravery posts kinda reminds me of the day after the Wagah attacks! No Bharti to be seen!


Kia yaad dila diya tu ny...............let me make it better for indians to see it

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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> Fayada bahut hai ... UP wale Bihar ke Jija kahlayenge


Whoah, How did hat happen?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

kaku1 said:


> Because there was Congress hand behind it.
> 
> But when MMS govt. allowed free hand to Sri Lanka, it took no more then 3 yrs to clean the whole shit.


so india supported an ethnic insurgency in SL for 27 years? And india supported SL in fightin it?

I. The 80s it was PaK that helped SL Military raised its special forces,the even selected locations for their SF HQs,fAcilities.. provided them weapons and Sen military advisors.. Even during the las years india was reluctant in supporting SL .. It was Pak that was sending armed supplied,
/ships ,military advisors every week to help SL military. It was Pak that was standing with SL when india was opposing SL at UN.

Again fightin an ethnic insurgency militia in a region locked by sea is nothing when compared to taliban... Even NATO has failed (with taliban controlling t most of Afghanistan today)... even after 14 years! 



> Remember an insurgency like Khalistaan movement took 20 yrs to clear out from whole India.



Again fighting an insurgency in the plains of punjab .. Locked between Pak (LOC) on one side indian heartland on the other.. It still took you 20 years to deal with lightly armed Sikhs.

Now take into account the terrain of FATA (the same region high even british couldn't control)... The porous border with a war torn country,abundant arm supposed,venomous ideology that encourages attrocities like suicide bombings etx... The foriegn funding,hardcore militants from almost every corner of this part of the world .. from Chechnya to Libya..

The limited resources of Pak with its crippled economy.. Yet today after the launch of NWA we have almost cleared the entire region with the leadership of taliban either dead,dying for fleein to Afghabistan..

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## jaatram

Jarha said:


> Fayada bahut hai ... UP wale Bihar ke Jija kahlayenge


waise bhauji hai kya pic mein apni? lalu ji naraz ho jayege ... hatao jaldi se.


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## Yaduveer

singh sahab said:


> Whoah, How did hat happen?



unnhh ...Kar dee bachchon wali baat !



jaatram said:


> waise bhauji hai kya pic mein apni? lalu ji naraz ho jayege ... hatao jaldi se.



Are yaar , Tej Pratap se jis ladki ki shadi ho rahi hai , wo akhiri ladki hai Laloo ki 

Ye bihari hi hai .. lekin koyi aur

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## SQ8

As far as memory serves me, the PA has already been and proven itself ready to fight a bigger enemy; problem is that it is the troops who are ready to fight and really put their hearts and minds into it. One cannot say for its leadership in past such as that of Gen Musharraf.


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## Ray_of_Hope

Shiji Forces said:


> Actually Indians are! They try to become westernized!
> Regarding the bravery posts kinda reminds me of the day after the Wagah attacks! No Bharti to be seen!


Bravery of Indian people after wagah bomb blasts


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## kaku1

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> so india supported an ethnic insurgency in SL for 27 years? And india supported SL in fightin it?



Yes, you have doubt about it. But no Indian leadership allowed all out offensive to Jaffana. But I assure u that offensive never happened if India not supported Sri Lanka.



> And india supported SL in fightin it?



Nope, Mrs. Sonia Gandhi, and her wrath on LTTE. Congress cant send its own forces to clear out LTTE, and previous govt. afraid of Tamil backlash inside India. But after all she is Indian married women. 







> Again fighting an insurgency in the plains of punjab .. Locked between Pak (LOC) on one side indian heartland on the other.. It still took you 20 years to deal with lightly armed Sikhs.


Yes, when Pak has direct access to these terror groups, through borders.


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## jaatram

Jarha said:


> unnhh ...Kar dee bachchon wali baat !
> 
> 
> 
> Are yaar , Tej Pratap se jis ladki ki shadi ho rahi hai , wo akhiri ladki hai Laloo ki


phir bhi yaar pic hatao yaaar ... not needed here. kyon dil jala rahe ho. ek ladki pasand aayi hui hai Yadavo ki ... dil dhu dhu kar kar ke jal raha hai.


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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> unnhh ...Kar dee bachchon wali baat !
> 
> 
> 
> Are yaar , Tej Pratap se jis ladki ki shadi ho rahi hai , wo akhiri ladki hai Laloo ki
> 
> Ye bihari hi hai .. lekin koyi aur


Dude, We disown that royal yadav cult. Do not, Please do not downgrade U.P. with names of those mornons.



war khan said:


> Bravery of Indian people after wagah bomb blasts


So you think people are coward if they are not going to a kill zone?

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## Yaduveer

jaatram said:


> phir bhi yaar pic hatao yaaar ... not needed here. kyon dil jala rahe ho. ek ladki pasand aayi hui hai Yadavo ki ... dil dhu dhu kar kar ke jal raha hai.



Ye hai .. wo laloo ki akhiri koshish 






P.S. Dhu dhu kar jal raha hai ... koun hai wo aur hua kya ?

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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> Dude, We disown that royal yadav cult. Do not, Please do not downgrade U.P. with names of those mornons.
> 
> 
> So you think people are coward if they are not going to a kill zone?


Actually the point of the pic is to show bravery of Pakistanis, plus yah I think Indians are a bit scared there I mean an explosion will happen at the Pakistani Side Gate Far from the Indians but still they choose to sit this one out! I still can't understand how will we surrender so easily? Hmmm.....


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## Yaduveer

singh sahab said:


> Dude, *We* _disown_ that royal yadav cult. Do not, Please do not downgrade U.P. with names of those mornons.



We ? 
Ma kasam mujhe to Zaid hamid ki yaad aa gayi.


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## Ray_of_Hope

singh sahab said:


> So you think people are coward if they are not going to a kill zone?


LOL.It was on the pakistani side........Pakistanis were present there the next day even after suffering more than 50 casualities while the indians were pissing their pants in dehli.So what should we call it???Bravery???


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## jaatram

Jarha said:


> Ye hai .. wo laloo ki akhiri koshish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Dhu dhu kar jal raha hai ... koun hai wo aur hua kya ?


family friend hai par wahi ... mein jaat woh yadav. pehle love marriage jaat jaat mein nahi hone di .. 
yahan to is case mein saali honor killing ho jayge gi .


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## Menace2Society

100 million Pakistanis would enlist for war and be ready.

India in 65 with a force of 3:1 ratio could not penetrate Lahore. This is SPARTA!


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## singh sahab

Shiji Forces said:


> Actually the point of the pic is to show bravery of Pakistanis, plus yah I think Indians are a bit scared there I mean an explosion will happen at the Pakistani Side Gate Far from the Indians but still they choose to sit this one out! I still can't understand how will we surrender so easily? Hmmm.....


So by your logic, common people roaming in a kill zone after a bomb blast is Bravery? You've got to be kidding. Dude they are common people. They are not supposed to be there after an attack, maybe they are just out of curiosity.

And these people are not the ones who have to show their bravery in war, They are supposed to stay safe in their home and watch it on TV. Comparing their curiosity with bravery of soldiers is stupid. These people will not fight wars. Soldiers will. 

And as for the surrender part of your post, Pakistan has a proud history of worlds largest surrender after losing worlds shortest war while changing geography of Asia.

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## I.R.A

Razia Sultana said:


> I am all for a hot, passionate and mature debate on anything but my only reservation is about use of undignified words, perhaps being a woman I am not comfortable with certain vocabulary and I excuse myself.



Cannot say anything about others but when if I know I am addressing a khatoon I try to take care and not go you know what I mean (though dealing with male counterparts is totally different story ). By the way I hope your kids are doing fine? Those little devils turn us angels , I don't know if yours are little or teens



Razia Sultana said:


> Gen. Musharraf, with due regards to his knowledge and experience, is only saying in a generic manner that a smaller army, with a superior strategy, can defeat a larger army. The assumption here is that the bigger army will not have a good strategy and rely only on numerical superiority. Also, the concept of war has changed. More than the numerical or qualitative strength, its the ability to sustain a war that decides the winner. Now a days its more of a psychological superiority in terms of economy,military capabilities and strategic alliances that pre decide the outcome of a war. So even Gen. Musharraf knows that he is being more motivational for his side than being realistic.



As far as I know the recent tests suggest that Pakistan is not looking for any invasion, it is making sure that anything with big numbers and within range of 300kms if need arises can be nuked. To me Pakistan is more tilted towards defense than any offense, and this is what it has been doing for over a decade since start of WOT. Apart from that Kashmir issue will be highlighted and supported to keep India under pressure, we may see covert proxy wars because Pakistan feels India has benefitted from engagement of Pakistan with WOT and has stoked insurgency like BLA and supported terrorists like TTP against Pakistan.



Razia Sultana said:


> The feeling I get is that Pakistan Army is more focussed on tactical, smaller, short term victories than a strategic outcome. Even the nukes are for tactical use. Pak Army's biggest worry in a war with India is whether India will confine to Kashmir or open the war to other sectors as well.



I don't think now India can threaten us with numerical superiority anymore because Pakistan's stance on nukes is clear "if we are threatened with invasion and our sovereignty is endangered we will commit a suicide but before that will make sure this region is rendered uninhabitable. And this can only be countered if Pakistan is disarmed of its nukes.


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## jaatram

war khan said:


> LOL.It was on the pakistani side........Pakistanis were present there the next day even after suffering more than 50 casualities while the indians were pissing their pants in dehli.So what should we call it???Bravery???


would you call kids who observed a minutes silence in respect of kids who died in peshwar attack as cowards aswell? people didn't attend the wagha ceremony in the mourning of people who died in the bomb blast a day before. Call it what you want to please your ego, there are enough people here who sympathies with people across the border.


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## Yaduveer

jaatram said:


> family friend hai par wahi ... mein jaat woh yadav. pehle love marriage jaat jaat mein nahi hone di ..
> yahan to is case mein saali honor killing ho jayge gi .



1. Dekh duniya ki etani sochega to Kunwara hi rah jayega , wo bhi pasand karti hai kya ?
2. Jaat-jaat main kya pange ho gaye ? apane hi gotra mai thee kya ? ya kuchh aur kissa tha

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## indianBong

war khan said:


> LOL.It was on the pakistani side........Pakistanis were present there the next day even after suffering more than 50 casualities while the indians were pissing their pants in dehli.So what should we call it???Bravery???



Get a life..!! u hav memory loss??? indian side is empty at wagah as BSF had called off ceremony for 3days to show solidarity towards the innocent pakistanis who died .... and pathetic people like you are making fun!!!

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## singh sahab

Menace2Society said:


> 100 million Pakistanis would enlist for war and be ready.
> 
> India in 65 with a force of 3:1 ratio could not penetrate Lahore. This is SPARTA!


And here you bring '65 again. Please remember before bringing 65 up, that in 65, Pakistan started an offensive with OP Gibralter and ended up defending Lahore with some good action from PAF. So, i would not call it strategic victory if you ask me.


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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> So by your logic, common people roaming in a kill zone after a bomb blast is Bravery? You've got to be kidding. Dude they are common people. They are not supposed to be there after an attack, maybe they are just out of curiosity.
> 
> And these people are not the ones who have to show their bravery in war, They are supposed to stay safe in their home and watch it on TV. Comparing their curiosity with bravery of soldiers is stupid. These people will not fight wars. Soldiers will.
> 
> And as for the surrender part of your post, Pakistan has a proud history of worlds largest surrender after losing worlds shortest war while changing geography of Asia.


Stupidity is relative! Why can't you agree that Indians are a cowardly nation? Okay so we lost due to internal reasons in 71 not majorily due to Kafir Nation. But do you remember 65? I mean you were supposed to have tea in gym khana! Or was the tea too sour? You guys are always too eager to fight but when push comes to shove you are the ones using their influence on the foreign affairs!


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## jaatram

Jarha said:


> 1. Dekh duniya ki etani sochega to Kunwara hi rah jayega , wo bhi pasand karti hai kya ?
> 2. Jaat-jaat main kya pange ho gaye ? apane hi gotra mai thee kya ? ya kuchh aur kissa tha


nah yaar koi gotra ki dikat nahi thi bus aise hi ghar walo ki chul thi ... 
Aur haaan woh bhi pasand karti hai bus ek din bagha ke le jaunga usko. bahut bakchodi ho gayi gharwalo ki yaar.


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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> We ?
> Ma kasam mujhe to Zaid hamid ki yaad aa gayi.


Yeah, you have luxury of remembering ZH, cuz you are not typing from a 3rd grade "Fail raha Samajwad" stickered laptop. Ask thousands of students here. Ask my roomie, who brought it from his cousin for a PPT preperation and ended up paying 8,000 for repairs.


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## I.R.A

jaatram said:


> Oh please you don't even know half of it. Never underestimate evil hindu Chanakya !!!



What happened to the Baniya? I like that more you know EHB

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## Indian Patriot

Oscar said:


> As far as memory serves me, the PA has already been and proven itself ready to fight a bigger enemy; problem is that it is the troops who are ready to fight and really put their hearts and minds into it. One cannot say for its leadership in past such as that of Gen Musharraf.



You got it wrong, its that Pakistanis make good strategies on paper, but implementing that on the field ends up in disaster for them.


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## Yaduveer

Menace2Society said:


> Indian men are cowards. Only good for raping.



Etne bhi sweeping statement mat maaro ... vaise esi wajah se Pakistan banaya tha kya ,kahin ..


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## jaatram

Menace2Society said:


> Indian men are cowards. Only good for raping.


Says a Bristish pakistani who are notorious for grooming under age girls.


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## Indian Patriot

Menace2Society said:


> 100 million Pakistanis would enlist for war and be ready.
> 
> India in 65 with a force of 3:1 ratio could not penetrate Lahore. This is SPARTA!



100 million? LOL!!


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## Shiji Forces

indianBong said:


> Get a life..!! u hav memory loss??? indian side is empty at wagah as BSF had called off ceremony for 3days to show solidarity towards the innocent pakistanis who died .... and pathetic people like you are making fun!!!


Oh common! Do you really think I don't know you Indians? Do you really think I haven't seen post on Indian forums where they are praising the attacks on institutions of Pakistan? Saw a few people saying that "141 children terrorists wiped out from face of the earth" After the Peshawar Attacks!
Indians don't have humanity! I can bet a thousand bucks that most of this forums Indian members had watery mouths when the attack was happening!


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## farhan_9909

I think the people are also very much ready.


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## Yaduveer

singh sahab said:


> Yeah, you have luxury of remembering ZH, cuz you are not typing from a 3rd grade "Fail raha Samajwad" stickered laptop. Ask thousands of students here. Ask my roomie, who brought it from his cousin for a PPT preperation and ended up paying 8,000 for repairs.



Ye funny tha

Lekin kya Bheek main supercomputer hi maang loge kya


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## singh sahab

Shiji Forces said:


> Stupidity is relative! Why can't you agree that Indians are a cowardly nation? Okay so we lost due to internal reasons in 71 not majorily due to Kafir Nation. But do you remember 65? I mean you were supposed to have tea in gym khana! Or was the tea too sour? You guys are always too eager to fight but when push comes to shove you are the ones using their influence on the foreign affairs!


Refer Post #162. One of your esteemed friend also brought up heroics of '65. 
You guys are taking pride of a war, which you started for occupying kashmir, but ended up defending Lahore. See, We were not the offensive side, so its understandable if we did not penetrate deep into Pakistan. But Pakistan was on offensive from the start with OP Gibralter. And still you guys not only failed to occupy Kashmir, Your para commandos were beaten up by villagers of Rajasthan with sticks and bamboos. I have the picture, if you wanna see, i can share. In the end, Pakistan went from offensive to defensive. 

Do you really call that a victory?


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## jaatram

Color_Less_Sky said:


> What happened to the Baniya? I like that more you know EHB


Well i hate baniyas too so can't say it.

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## farhan_9909

Indian Patriot said:


> 100 million? LOL!!



Actually its true,as per my estimate,we can raise 20Million strong militia within 3-4weeks,the civilians already has weapon.


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## Razia Sultana

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Cannot say anything about others but when if I know I am addressing a khatoon I try to take care and not go you know what I mean (though dealing with male counterparts is totally different story ). By the way I hope your kids are doing fine? Those little devils turn us angels , I don't know if yours are little or teens
> QUOTE]



Thanks. Kids are almost teens, doing well and ensure that I become an insomniac. pdf is a welcome change as it brings out the bad old teenager in me.

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## suresh1773

Pomegranate said:


> Most of those rented Terrorists are already in hell .............


Who rented them,who nurtured them,who gave them arms,training. All yr military operations in the past have failed,even the current one This-E-That's. 
The militants know that they r not in a position to face a conventional war,hence they will lie down,even in Afghanistan the taliban militants surrendered against Northern Alliance with the help of Nato forces.


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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> Ye funny tha
> 
> Lekin kya Bheek main supercomputer hi maang loge kya


Bheekh mangi kisne? Ye to Yadav cult ka election promise tha. Bribe for sending them to power, Poor people just did not know that they would be backstabbed pretty badly.

Laptop Bol kar jhunjhuna pakdane walo, Janta maaf nahi karegi.

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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> Refer Post #162. One of your esteemed friend also brought up heroics of '65.
> You guys are taking pride of a war, which you started for occupying kashmir, but ended up defending Lahore. See, We were not the offensive side, so its understandable if we did not penetrate deep into Pakistan. But Pakistan was on offensive from the start with OP Gibralter. And still you guys not only failed to occupy Kashmir, Your para commandos were beaten up by villagers of Rajasthan with sticks and bamboos. I have the picture, if you wanna see, i can share. In the end, Pakistan went from offensive to defensive.
> 
> Do you really call that a victory?


Oh okay if your statement is true then we should immediately attack India because let's face it neither you nor I am a child and we both know about Indian involvement in FATA! So yup let's attack!
There's a difference b/w LIC and War! War happens when uniformed soldiers cross the Intl Border! And that's what India did! But common the basis of victory somehow rests on the fact that you guys weren't able to drink tea in gym khana rather had to abandon your tanks and scoot back to the places you came from!


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## jaatram

farhan_9909 said:


> Actually its true,as per my estimate,we can raise 20Million strong militia within 3-4weeks,the civilians already has weapon.


hum to kanche khelne ke liye paida hue hai.

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## singh sahab

Razia Sultana said:


> Thanks. Kids are almost teens, doing well and ensure that I become an insomniac. pdf is a welcome change as it brings out the bad old teenager in me.


"Bad" "Teenager" ? Ehem Ehem


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## I.R.A

Razia Sultana said:


> Thanks. Kids are almost teens, doing well and ensure that I become an insomniac. pdf is a welcome change as it brings out the bad old teenager in me.



I thought it is better when they grow up , the little ones are the ones who make your nights like

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## farhan_9909

jaatram said:


> hum to kanche khelne ke liye paida hue hai.



actually i second you on this part


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## Razia Sultana

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Cannot say anything about others but when if I know I am addressing a khatoon I try to take care and not go you know what I mean (though dealing with male counterparts is totally different story ). By the way I hope your kids are doing fine? Those little devils turn us angels , I don't know if yours are little or teens
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know the recent tests suggest that Pakistan is not looking for any invasion, it is making sure that anything with big numbers and within range of 300kms if need arises can be nuked. To me Pakistan is more tilted towards defense than any offense, and this is what it has been doing for over a decade since start of WOT. Apart from that Kashmir issue will be highlighted and supported to keep India under pressure, we may see covert proxy wars because Pakistan feels India has benefitted from engagement of Pakistan with WOT and has stoked insurgency like BLA and supported terrorists like TTP against Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think now India can threaten us with numerical superiority anymore because Pakistan's stance on nukes is clear "if we are threatened with invasion and our sovereignty is endangered we will commit a suicide but before that will make sure this region is rendered uninhabitable. And this can only be countered if Pakistan is disarmed of its nukes.


Actually i realize that its very difficult to talk about kids and war together. So have a nice and peaceful sleep. We will talk about it later.

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## Indian Patriot

farhan_9909 said:


> Actually its true,as per my estimate,we can raise 20Million strong militia within 3-4weeks,the civilians already has weapon.



Having a weapon and having the discipline to stand your ground when bullets buzz past your ear and 155mm shells explode all around you are two different things.


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## suresh1773

jbgt90 said:


> Our Pakistani friends here seem to forget , we do not want to go to war , for us our economy is the priority .
> And all those who advocate war on this forum thinking its some sort of a romantic fantasy , let me just inform them that war is the last thing on any solders mind. because once started there is no way to stop midway . there will be casuilties, on both sides.


Well said Sir, I hope yr message reaches to that General & the anchor seen in the video

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## Menace2Society

Indians are internet warriors. 90% of population will hide or run away to Canada.

Sikhs will stand and fight because they are men of honor.


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## Indian Patriot

Menace2Society said:


> Indians are internet warriors. 90% of population will hide or run away to Canada.



So Canada's population will become 900 million?

LOL!! You Pakistanis debate like little children, full of passion but empty on facts.


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## farhan_9909

Indian Patriot said:


> Having a weapon and having the discipline to stand your ground when bullets buzz past your ear and 155mm shells explode all around you are two different things.



bhai jaan,ye hum parr chorr do,this is not 65 or 71 when we had not even proper sticks to fight with.

today even the civilian population of Pakistan is armed to teeth.

No offence but it might lead to a genocide of indians at the hand of Pakistani civilians


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## Yaduveer

singh sahab said:


> Bheekh mangi kisne? Ye to Yadav cult ka election promise tha. Bribe for sending them to power, Poor people just did not know that they would be backstabbed pretty badly.
> 
> Laptop Bol kar jhunjhuna pakdane walo, Janta maaf nahi karegi.










Yadav cult fir bhi Maya ki maya se better hai, Hath main jhunjhuna to diya ... Behan ji ne to sabako hatho main apna -apna pakda diya tha through Harijan Act

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## Shiji Forces

Believe me war is the first and only thing on a soldiers mind! How do I know this? Well let's just pretend I do! 
But maybe Indian soldiers don't like war that much... hmmm....


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## Razia Sultana

Color_Less_Sky said:


> I thought it is better when they grow up , the little ones are the ones who make your nights like


When they were little, we thought we will get some peace once they grow up. but it does not seem like. So enjoy the best time with them.

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## singh sahab

Shiji Forces said:


> Oh okay if your statement is true then we should immediately attack India because let's face it neither you nor I am a child and we both know about Indian involvement in FATA! So yup let's attack!
> There's a difference b/w LIC and War! War happens when uniformed soldiers cross the Intl Border! And that's what India did! But common the basis of victory somehow rests on the fact that you guys weren't able to drink tea in gym khana rather had to abandon your tanks and scoot back to the places you came from!


I'm not a child. But i seriously doubt about you reading all your jingoistic posts. Hurray lets attack India, would be fun. Eh?

As for the second part. Victory rests on fact if you were able to get your goal which you aimed for, in the starting. If you got your goal, You are victorious, If you did not get your goal, You are loser. 
Pakistan aimed to occupy Kashmir. It failed. So Pakistan lost.
India aimed to defend Kashmir, We not only defended it, but also made yo fall back in your territory and made the fight about your Lahore's survival. So, India won. India is winner.

Case closed.


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## jaatram

farhan_9909 said:


> actually i second you on this part


it was this cockiness that lead to 65 and kargil. keep thinking that. It's good for us.


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## Yaduveer

farhan_9909 said:


> bhai jaan,ye hum parr chorr do,this is not 65 or 71 when we had not even proper sticks to fight with.
> 
> today even the civilian population of Pakistan is armed to teeth.
> 
> No offence but it might lead to a genocide of indians at the hand of Pakistani civilians




Ghar main nahi hai daane aur amma chali bhunaane !

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## jaatram

Menace2Society said:


> Indians are internet warriors. 90% of population will hide or run away to Canada.
> 
> Sikhs will stand and fight because they are men of honor.


lol awwww feeling a little pain.


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## A1Kaid

He is absolutely right, military history is full of examples of how a smaller force has defeated a larger force using great strategy. Pakistani military planners must develop if not already a battle strategy that will unravel the Indian military.


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## Indian Patriot

farhan_9909 said:


> bhai jaan,ye hum parr chorr do,this is not 65 or 71 when we had not even proper sticks to fight with.
> 
> today even the civilian population of Pakistan is armed to teeth.
> 
> No offence but it might lead to a genocide of indians at the hand of Pakistani civilians



Yea, I can see how armed to the teeth you are and how much it has helped you in zarb e arb. I suspect if war breaks out then half of Pakistan might even support India. 

20 million Pakistanis will genocide 1200 million Indians? ROFLOL!!!


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## I.R.A

jaatram said:


> Well i hate baniyas too so can't say it.



But what is this chankaya? EHC does not rhyme, EHB suits more


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## T90TankGuy

suresh1773 said:


> Well said Sir, I hope yr message reaches to* that General* & the anchor seen in the video


That General happens to be the former president(military ruler) of Pakistan

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## kaku1

farhan_9909 said:


> bhai jaan,ye hum parr chorr do,this is not 65 or 71 when we had not even proper sticks to fight with.
> 
> today even the civilian population of Pakistan is armed to teeth.
> 
> No offence but it might lead to a genocide of indians at the hand of Pakistani civilians



In 65 you was not prepared? 

In 65 Pak was prospering, and was properly prepared for invading India with western weaponry.
Actually it was India who was not prepared.

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## Menace2Society




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## Razia Sultana

singh sahab said:


> "Bad" "Teenager" ? Ehem Ehem


Dont tell me you were a "good" boy as a teen.


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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> Yadav cult fir bhi Maya ki maya se better hai, Hath main jhunjhuna to diya ... Behan ji ne to sabako hatho main apna -apna pakda diya tha through Harijan Act


Dude, What's done is done. Harijan act is reality now. Though i hate it, but can not change the reality. It is not going anywhere. As for Maya, I know she was also a corrupt, but at least she was a dictator. There was no bigger gunda in state than Mayawati. Administration was strict. Crime was low. 
While nowadays, every Tata Nano driver with SP flag considers himself supreme authority and threatens with connections of 'Tipu Dadda'. There are at least 7-8 CM in U.p. now from Ramgopal to Azam, Everybody is CM now. U.P. police is puppet in hands of criminals now. Everything is going haywire.

On any given day, I would prefer a dictator Mayawati over whole family of Chief ministers.


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## jaatram

farhan_9909 said:


> bhai jaan,ye hum parr chorr do,this is not 65 or 71 when we had not even proper sticks to fight with.
> 
> today even the civilian population of Pakistan is armed to teeth.
> 
> No offence but it might lead to a genocide of indians at the hand of Pakistani civilians


jab hum tumhe tumhare jutee se maar sakte hai apne haath kyon gande kare ... har hafte tum ek dusre ko maar rahe alll we need do is keep mum let you guys kill each othere.


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## suresh1773

SipahSalar said:


> Agreed. But you will see more war drum beating from Pakistan because it is logical for us. If India does not care or prepare much for war, it doesn't make as much difference to them if they get caught off guard. But Pakistan cannot afford that luxury. We need to keep reminding the Indians that our swords are sharp as a precaution against misadventure. Mind you, Pakistanis don't want war anymore than Indians. It's just a survival instinct.


Today the main threat to Pakistan is not India but the extremism & the militants. It has been more then a decade,more then 50,000 have been killed. It is only after the karachi airport attack u woke up. Law & order is becoming worse day by day,then there is politial voilence between different parties,ethnic voilence. First the petrol crisis followed by Electricity & water,where is Pakistan heading. U can't even see the elephant in yr drawing room

@jbgt90 About the general,Author of Kargil

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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> I'm not a child. But i seriously doubt about you reading all your jingoistic posts. Hurray lets attack India, would be fun. Eh?
> 
> As for the second part. Victory rests on fact if you were able to get your goal which you aimed for, in the starting. If you got your goal, You are victorious, If you did not get your goal, You are loser.
> Pakistan aimed to occupy Kashmir. It failed. So Pakistan lost.
> India aimed to defend Kashmir, We not only defended it, but also made yo fall back in your territory and made the fight about your Lahore's survival. So, India won. India is winner.
> 
> Case closed.


Actually that is exactly what you kafirs did in 65.
So now you won the whole war? Nice! You guys are paranoid to the max! Operation Gibraltor was an attempt at insurgency, it failed. But the actual war began when you attacked Lahore. Indian aims were denied, so guess who had the victory.


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## A1Kaid

kaku1 said:


> In 65 you was not prepared?
> 
> In 65 Pak was prospering, and was properly prepared for invading India with western weaponry.
> Actually it was India who was not prepared.




In 1965, Pakistan won most of the battles and the air war. However, Pakistan failed in its objective of taking Indian occupied Kashmir. As far as damage infliction Pakistan did more damage to India in that war and devastated the Indian Air Force and halted Indian army mobilization and caused them to retreat in many battles.

Personally, I think Pakistan should have continued the 1965 war as it had the momentum in the Air it could have rained down destruction on Indian ground forces even more and eventually carved out a path for Pakistani land forces to invade further to Indian occupied Kashmir. Winning the air war influences the whole battlefield.

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## jaatram

Color_Less_Sky said:


> But what is this chankaya? EHC does not rhyme, EHB suits more


Read on him ... he was the evilest of evil hindu out there since ages.


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## singh sahab

Shiji Forces said:


> Believe me war is the first and only thing on a soldiers mind! How do I know this? Well let's just pretend I do!
> But *maybe Indian soldiers don't like war that much... hmmm*....


You pretended that too, didn't you?


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## Menace2Society

Gen Musharraf is a lion.

*He fought in the Indo-Pakistan War of 1965 as a young officer, and was awarded Imtiazi Sanad for gallantry. He also achieved the Nishan-i-Imtiaz (Military) and the Tamgha-i-Basalat. He has been also on the faculty of the Command and Staff College, Quetta and the war wing of (the) National Defence College. He volunteered to be a commando, and remained in the Special Services Group for seven years.*
*
Image taken in 1968



*


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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> Ghar main nahi hai daane aur amma chali bhunaane !


My mummy says that all the time

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## Shiji Forces

jaatram said:


> jab hum tumhe tumhare jutee se maar sakte hai apne haath kyon gande kare ... har hafte tum ek dusre ko maar rahe alll we need do is keep mum let you guys kill each othere.





suresh1773 said:


> Today the main threat to Pakistan is not India but the extremism & the militants. It has been more then a decade,more then 50,000 have been killed. It is only after the karachi airport attack u woke up. Law & order is becoming worse day by day,then there is politial voilence between different parties,ethnic voilence. First the petrol crisis followed by Electricity & water,where is Pakistan heading. U can't even see the elephant in yr drawing room
> 
> @jbgt90 About the general,Author of Kargil


I can feel all the Kafirs in this post getting a small erection after talking about the death of Pakistani civilians and children's that their state sponsors!


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## kaku1

A1Kaid said:


> In 1965, Pakistan won most of the battles and the air war. However, Pakistan failed in its objective of taking Indian occupied Kashmir. As far as damage infliction Pakistan did more damage to India in that war and devastated the Indian Air Force and halted Indian army mobilization and caused them to retreat in many battles.



What was primary objective of PM Lal Bahadur Shastri?


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## Yaduveer

singh sahab said:


> Dude, What's done is done. Harijan act is reality now. Though i hate it, but can not change the reality. It is not going anywhere. As for Maya, I know she was also a corrupt, but at least she was a dictator. There was no bigger gunda in state than Mayawati. Administration was strict. Crime was low.
> While nowadays, every Tata Nano driver with SP flag considers himself supreme authority and threatens with connections of 'Tipu Dadda'. There are at least 7-8 CM in U.p. now from Ramgopal to Azam, Everybody is CM now. U.P. police is puppet in hands of criminals now. Everything is going haywire.
> 
> On any given day, I would prefer a dictator Mayawati over whole family of Chief ministers.



Kisi ko freedom achchi lagti hai , kisi ko Dalito ki pairo ki dhool se orgasm hota hai

Apna apna Jaayakaa hai Bhai sahab !


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## Indian Patriot

A1Kaid said:


> In 1965, Pakistan won most of the battles and the air war. However, Pakistan failed in its objective of taking Indian occupied Kashmir. As far as damage infliction Pakistan did more damage to India in that war and devastated the Indian Air Force and halted Indian army mobilization and caused them to retreat in many battles.



1965 was a failure of pakistan and PAF. The PAF shot down a vast number of planes of IAF on the ground when they attacked without a formal declaration of war. India practically fought 65 war without air cover. Still pakistan and PAF failed to make any inroads. 

It was this inability of PAF and pakistani military that encouraged India to take a more aggressive stance in 1971 war. A country that cannot defeat its opponents who has no air cover, what will they do when their air force is fully active.


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## kaku1

A1Kaid said:


> In 1965, Pakistan won most of the battles and the air war. However, Pakistan failed in its objective of taking Indian occupied Kashmir. As far as damage infliction Pakistan did more damage to India in that war and devastated the Indian Air Force and halted Indian army mobilization and caused them to retreat in many battles.



And yes thats true, in 65 India was ill-prepared. 

Economy was tumbling, there was situation of famine. Food crisis and food inflation was on rocks. And Pak was prospering with US support and its weaponry. 

It was India who was not prepared for war at all.


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## Yaduveer

jaatram said:


> Read on him ... he was the evilest of evil hindu out there since ages.



Are bhai , baat complete kar ...
1. Yadav ki chhori tumko bhi pasand karti hai ?
2. Jat -jat kya hua tha ?


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## I.R.A

jaatram said:


> Read on him ... he was the evilest of evil hindu out there since ages.



Is he the one who trained Ashoka, and half shaved head with pony? But I think that was Chandar Gupt Moria.


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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> You pretended that too, didn't you?


Actually that was a post from an Indian I didn't say that. 
But do know that our soldier is very eager to fight any Kafir army any day of the week!


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## singh sahab

A1Kaid said:


> In 1965, Pakistan won most of the battles and the air war. However, Pakistan failed in its objective of taking Indian occupied Kashmir. As far as damage infliction Pakistan did more damage to India in that war and devastated the Indian Air Force and halted Indian army mobilization and caused them to retreat in many battles.
> 
> Personally, I think Pakistan should have continued the 1965 war as it had the momentum in the Air it could have rained down destruction on Indian ground forces even more and eventually carved out a path for Pakistani land forces to invade further to Indian occupied Kashmir. Winning the air war influences the whole battlefield.


*Neutral assessments*
There have been several neutral assessments of the losses incurred by both India and Pakistan during the war. Most of these assessments agree that India had the upper hand over Pakistan when ceasefire was declared. Some of the neutral assessments are mentioned below —


According to the Library of Congress Country Studies conducted by the Federal Research Division of the United States[17] –
The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.


TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily.[78] The article further elaborates,
Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N.


Devin T. Hagerty wrote in his book _"South Asia in world politics"_[18] –
The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.


In his book _"National identity and geopolitical visions"_,[79] Gertjan Dijkink writes –
The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.


An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert's _India_,[80] summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965,
In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin.


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## Yaduveer

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Is he the one who trained Ashoka, and half shaved head with pony? But I think that was Chandar Gupt Moria.



Colorstv dekh rahe ho kya aaj kal ?

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## A1Kaid

Indian Patriot said:


> *1965 was a failure of pakistan and PAF. The PAF shot down a vast number of planes of IAF on the ground when they attacked without a formal declaration of war. India practically fought 65 war without air cover. Still pakistan and PAF failed to make any inroads. *
> 
> It was this inability of PAF and pakistani military that encouraged India to take a more aggressive stance in 1971 war. A country that cannot defeat its opponents who has no air cover, what will they do when their air force is fully active.



As I said I think Pakistan should have continued the 1965 war. PAF had won the air war and could have rained down destruction on Indian ground forces and carved out of a path to Indian occupied Kashmir. It was a mistake in my opinion to not continue that war when Pakistan had the momentum. Winning the air war allows you to influence the battlefield, and Pakistan did not capitalize on that to achieve it's ultimate objective. It was a failure in assessing the momentum of the time. Leadership and not the soldiers are to be blamed for this.


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## SQ8

Indian Patriot said:


> You got it wrong, its that Pakistanis make good strategies on paper, but implementing that on the field ends up in disaster for them.



Not exactly. Good strategies are good strategies. But it depends on when you implement them. Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.

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## Shiji Forces

A1Kaid said:


> As I said I think Pakistan should have continued the 1965 war. PAF had won the air war and could have rained down destruction on Indian ground forces and carved out of a path to Indian occupied Kashmir. It was a mistake in my opinion to not continue that war when Pakistan had the momentum. Winning the air war allows you to influence the battlefield, and Pakistan did not capitalize on that to achieve it's ultimate objective. It was a failure in assessing the momentum of the time. Leadership and not the soldiers are to be blamed for this.


Indians will never agree they lost!


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## A1Kaid

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. Good strategies are good strategies. But it depends on when you implement them. Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.




Disagree with you about timing, Pakistan army still holds key strategic points in Kargil to this today. There was no "perfect timing" for an operation such as that, only time you can perform this operation and time you cannot perform this operation as planned.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Is he the one who trained Ashoka, and half shaved head with pony? But I think that was Chandar Gupt Moria.



Chanakya was from modern day Taxila,Punjab-Pakistan.

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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> Yeah, They are ready to fight and surrender later.


Keep on thinking that! We would rather die than surrender to a Kafir Army!


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## SQ8

A1Kaid said:


> Disagree with you about timing, Pakistan army still holds key strategic points in Kargil to this today. There was no "perfect timing" for an operation such as that, only time you can perform this operation and time you cannot perform this operation as planned.



Which of these strategic points translate to a massive strategic gain as envisaged? Which of them were worth the cost in men, material and diplomatic insult?


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## kaku1

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Is he the one who trained Ashoka, and half shaved head with pony? But I think that was Chandar Gupt Moria.


Bhai, it was Chandragupta Maurya, Founder of Maurya empire. And Chankya was his adviser. He raised him, llike his own son. 

Ashoka was his grandson.

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## suresh1773

Rashid Mahmood said:


> Actually all the terrorist operations in SW & NW have been a blessing in disguise for our Army.
> They are now the most battle ready then they ever were.
> 
> Peace time exercises cannot provide the level of training as compared to what they have gone through in the last 10 years...
> All men and material has been tested, zeroed and ready...


U r a military profession talking like a kid. What about the damage the Militants have done,a decade already has gone,more then 50,000 ppl killed


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## singh sahab

Jarha said:


> Kisi ko freedom achchi lagti hai , kisi ko Dalito ki pairo ki dhool se orgasm hota hai
> 
> Apna apna Jaayakaa hai Bhai sahab !


Freedom and security are different. People are free in U.P. but they are not secure. And btw, I am a Modi fan


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## Shiji Forces

singh sahab said:


> So why did not those 97,368 soldiers embraced death, but surrendered to a Kafir army in '71?
> 
> Oh yeah, because hot air and jingoism does not keep yo alive, ground realities do.


Being backstabbed by Bangladesh didn't help. But let's face it times are different now. We don't have a distanced country with us now. There will be Only one front. You keep on having your small erection from the Peshawar School Massacre leave the fighting to the people on the ground.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. Good strategies are good strategies. But it depends on when you implement them. Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.



Strategy is not just about, taking a single aspect in mind and forget about other.

Can I ask one question, what if PMO allowed the IA and IAF to cross LOC and cut the supply line of PA inside Azad Kashmir? After all it was like, you crossed, so we crossed.


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## Indian Patriot

A1Kaid said:


> As I said I think Pakistan should have continued the 1965 war. PAF had won the air war and could have rained down destruction on Indian ground forces and carved out of a path to Indian occupied Kashmir. It was a mistake in my opinion to not continue that war when Pakistan had the momentum. Winning the air war allows you to influence the battlefield, and Pakistan did not capitalize on that to achieve it's ultimate objective. It was a failure in assessing the momentum of the time. Leadership and not the soldiers are to be blamed for this.



Pakistan could not carry the war because their ground forces were getting hammered. PAF could not capitalise their surprise attacks. The air cover for Pakistani forces was missing and Pakistan faced stalemate and defeat.


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## A1Kaid

Oscar said:


> Which of these strategic points translate to a massive strategic gain as envisaged? Which of them were worth the cost in men, material and diplomatic insult?



As I said Pakistan army controls to this day holds key strategic heights and points in Kargil. Kargil is the only foothold Pakistani army has in Indian occupied Kashmir. India has no footholds in Azad Kashmir. It was well worth it. Think of it as Pakistan's Rumelihisarı.

No matter what people will always criticize a military plan. However, I think credit should be given to Gen. Musharraf he is well read in western military history and Islamic military history.


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## metronome

Paksanity said:


> I don't say conventional forces of Pakistan are no match. They will inflict very heavy losses especially in first few days. Indian forces will pay a very heavy price. Also Pak army is quite capable of making incursions into Indian territory and capturing land. But if war prolongs or starts to go bad, then we have nuclear options to fall back on.
> 
> You know the thing about war is, you only control the start of it. Then they become unpredictable. It is really not possible to predict the outcome of this kind of war. So I agree with you, lets hope there is no war. There is a great chance that it gets out of control. Whoever starts it.


both forces will pay a heavy price.. bhaari nuksaan guatranteed, but India will keep sending troops, 5 times bigger is no laughing matter 

anyway, no war I hope


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## Indian Patriot

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. Good strategies are good strategies. But it depends on when you implement them. Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.



Kargil was a good strategy but it failed because the ones implementing the strategy - the soldiers - were not up to the task. The plan was to cut of Ladakh from rest of India. It instead ended up as the diplomatic isolation and humiliation of Pakistan. A good strategy on paper was wasted on ground. Such things have a demoralising impact on officer cadre. They feel that if the best plans they come up with don't work then what will. 

Kargil was the best possible time as well. The threat of a nuclear war meant that Pakistan can dictate and control the terms of fighting to where they want. But as I said, the Pakistani infantry was not trained or motivated enough to fight and the plan backfired.


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Strategy is not just about, taking a single aspect in mind and forget about other.
> 
> Can I ask one question, what if PMO allowed the IA and IAF to cross LOC and cut the supply line of PA inside Azad Kashmir? After all it was like, you crossed, so we crossed.



It would have gone into full fledged war..something neither were prepared for at the time, that was the issue for the PAF as well. It found itself tied around without being able to actually do anything to the IAF since they were not as such crossing the border.


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## kaku1

A1Kaid said:


> As I said Pakistan army controls to this day key strategic heights and points in Kargil. Kargil is the only foothold Pakistani army has in Indian occupied Kashmir. India has no footholds in Azad Kashmir. It was well worth it. Think of it as Pakistan's Rumelihisarı.


I asked this same question from Oscar. 

What if Cabinet Security given the free hand to IA and IAF, and allowed them to cross LoC? After all, it was like, you crossed, so we crossed.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. Good strategies are good strategies. But it depends on when you implement them. Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.


Tactically might have been a good move, but strategically was still a blunder. just like gibralter, searchlight and changez khan.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> It would have gone into full fledged war..something neither were prepared for at the time, that was the issue for the PAF as well. It found itself tied around without being able to actually do anything to the IAF since they were not as such crossing the border.


Again Pak nightmare. So, how it was good military strategy?


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## SQ8

Indian Patriot said:


> Kargil was the best possible time as well. The threat of a nuclear war meant that Pakistan can dictate and control the terms of fighting to where they want. But as I said, the Pakistani infantry was not trained or motivated enough to fight and the plan backfired.


Incorrect, the soldiers were fairly motivated but without a sound translation of the plan it was bound to fail. 
Have a read. 
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Again Pak nightmare. So, how it was good military strategy?



The Kargil strategy was best implemented during a semi-wartime approach as a responsive move to an Indian incursion rather than being an offensive move from the start. It was the ace in the hole that in a modified form would have created serious pressure on Indian resources during wartime.

NOTE TO ALL: On topic only or find yourself Shackled quickly.


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## Indian Patriot

Oscar said:


> Incorrect, the soldiers were fairly motivated but without a sound translation of the plan it was bound to fail.
> Have a read.
> Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force



The soldiers motivation cracked up and India upped the pressure. The Pakistani troops on the heights were outgunned, outnumbered and left with no support. The diplomatic offensive against Pakistan was something that the Pakistanis did not take into consideration. Things turned worse when even China kept mum. The world sided with India and Pakistan refused to aid and supply their troops. It was only a matter of time before they were cut down. 

Left with dwindling supplies their morale was broken and they lost the will to fight. The planning was good at the concept level, even the execution was good because the Pakistanis managed to capture the heights without Indian knowledge. From then on it was downhill. The diplomatic fallout and Indian counter-offensive both were underestimated while the Pakistani military was overestimated.



Oscar said:


> The Kargil strategy was best implemented during a semi-wartime approach as a responsive move to an Indian incursion rather than being an offensive move from the start. It was the ace in the hole that in a modified form would have created serious pressure on Indian resources during wartime.



The Kargil operation was offensive in nature. The plan was to occupy uninhabited Indian posts when both sides vacate their positions in winter. In war time the posts will be manned, so how do you think the plan could have been operational. The whole Kargil operation was based on speed and surprise. The objective of Kargil was to cut off Ladakh and force India onto the negotiating table under Pakistani terms. These things cannot be done in war time or in a "defensive" manner. 

It was a game of political dare and Pakistan blinked first. As I said they did not expect such a hostile international condemnation and they underestimated the Indian military response. India deployed IAF but for some reason Pakistan could not do the same. (Of course now many thinkers would give different opinion but the actual cause would be classified).


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## suresh1773

war khan said:


> Bravery of Indian people after wagah bomb blasts


The Indians thought some suicide bomber will attack the place once again,it was just a matter of precaution.


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## Yaduveer

Oscar said:


> Not exactly. Good strategies are good strategies. But it depends on when you implement them. Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.



Gustakhi muaaf Janab , Kargil was good tactics but bad strategy . Kargil could be a good action during an all out India-Pakistan war.
But kargil alone don't stand on it's feet.


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## wolfschanzze

Yawn,wake us up when you were able to defeat us,You know what we did in 47,65,71,99.
This same brilliant tactician General Musharaff went crying to Pm Nawaz Sharif asking him to beg in front of USA to mediate a ceasefire n Kargil.
'Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire'


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> The Kargil strategy was best implemented during a semi-wartime approach as a responsive move to an Indian incursion rather than being an offensive move from the start.



Again military strategy is not jus about invade..but also about to hold it. And fullfil strategic goals. If you dont meet then its a failure.. And that was bad strategy. Period. 

Lol..even i have seen Pakistanis taking pride of winning air battles of 65. But again what was objectives.

Again.. Winning against india doesnt mean..you won the wc.


> It was the ace in the hole that in a modified form would have created serious pressure on Indian resources during wartime.



Just to show this.. Musshy killed 3000 of its own men. What a egoistic move.

NOTE TO ALL: On topic only or find yourself Shackled quickly.[/QUOTE]

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## singh sahab

kaku1 said:


> Again military strategy is not jus about invade..but also about to hold it. And fullfil strategic goals. If you dont meet then its a failure.. And that was bad strategy. Period.
> 
> Lol..even i have seen Pakistanis taking pride of winning air battles of 65. But again what was objectives.
> 
> Again.. *Winning against india doesnt mean..you won the wc*.
> 
> 
> Just to show this.. Musshy killed 3000 of its own men. What a egoistic move.
> 
> NOTE TO ALL: On topic only or find yourself Shackled quickly.


[/QUOTE]
LOl, that bold underlined part almost made me pee, laughing


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Again military strategy is not jus about invade..but also about to hold it. And fullfil strategic goals. If you dont meet then its a failure.. And that was bad strategy. Period.
> 
> Lol..even i have seen Pakistanis taking pride of winning air battles of 65. But again what was objectives.
> 
> Again.. Winning against india doesnt mean..you won the wc.
> 
> 
> Just to show this.. Musshy killed 3000 of its own men. What a egoistic move.
> 
> NOTE TO ALL: On topic only or find yourself Shackled quickly.


[/QUOTE]

Again your opinion, it seems less objective and more focused on "Pakistan fucks up no matter what". Something I do not disagree with, but have better sense to give credit where it is due rather than just dissing.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> Again your opinion, it seems less objective and more focused on "Pakistan fucks up no matter what". Something I do not disagree with, but have better sense to give credit where it is due rather than just dissing.



No..if india fucks up in kargil..then i accept that. Like we fucks up in 62 and almost fucked up in 65.. Because cost of war was terrible for a bad conditioned economy.

But in 99..Pak was fucked up actually diplomatically( defamation was terrible for pak..and india crucified Pak), militarically and politically( 99 coup).


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> No..if india fucks up in kargil..then i accept that. Like we fucks up in 62 and almost fucked up in 65.. Because cost of war was terrible for a bad conditioned economy.
> 
> But in 99..Pak was fucked up actually diplomatically( defamation was terrible for pak..and india crucified Pak), militarically and politically( 99 coup).



Not disagreeing, but there is a difference in how the operation is perceived; You continue with dissing our soldiers and calling the entire operation a mess up, I see it as a good idea wasted along with good troops.


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## haviZsultan

Oscar said:


> The Kargil strategy was best implemented during a semi-wartime approach as a responsive move to an Indian incursion rather than being an offensive move from the start. It was the ace in the hole that in a modified form would have created serious pressure on Indian resources during wartime.
> 
> NOTE TO ALL: On topic only or find yourself Shackled quickly.


Kargil was also in response to Siachen incident when India despite being unthreatened decided to take 1000 km's of territory from us. US turned a blind eye to that but supported India in the kargil episode.


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## SQ8

haviZsultan said:


> Kargil was also in response to Siachen incident when India despite being unthreatened decided to take 1000 km's of territory from us. US turned a blind eye to that but supported India in the kargil episode.



Off course it will, at the end of the day.. the plans for the region entail a Pakistan like a lifetime amputee and gastric issues patient. It cannot be allowed to fail, but at the same time careful management is required to ensure that it does not succeed either; such is the role of useful buffer states in the entire world. 
There is no conspiracy theory here, its just international consensus seeing what works best in the interest of a lot of nations.

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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> Not disagreeing, but there is a difference in how the operation is perceived; You continue with dissing our soldiers and calling the entire operation a mess up, I see it as a good idea wasted along with good troops.


Lol..no. I am just saying, you cant go to war with just a one aspect in mind. And forgetting about all other that they are irrelevent. 

Equation cant be completed with one variable in knowledge.

Even see actually how the Mrs. Gandhi won the 71. The invasion was decided in March. But again she thought about every aspect,, and worked upon it. It took 9 month to plan the attack..and everybody knows inside PMO that what India next step going to happen.


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## singh sahab

haviZsultan said:


> Kargil was also in response to Siachen incident when India despite being unthreatened decided to take *1000 km's of territory* from us. US turned a blind eye to that but supported India in the kargil episode.


Kargil - 99. Siachin - 84. Can you please show me the connection?
And please explain the bold part.


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Lol..no. I am just saying, you cant go to war with just a one aspect in mind. And forgetting about all other that they are irrelevent.
> 
> Equation cant be completed with one variable in knowledge.
> 
> Even see actually how the Mrs. Gandhi won the 71. The invasion was decided in March. But again she thought about every aspect,, and worked upon it. It took 9 month to plan the attack..and everybody knows inside PMO that what India next step going to happen.



I dont disagree with that either, not sure why you continue to focus on why Kargil happened rather than what the tactical movement in Kargil entailed and its merits; which is what I am talking about.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> I dont disagree with that either, not sure why you continue to focus on why Kargil happened rather than what the tactical movement in Kargil entailed and its merits; which is what I am talking about.


Because war is all about stratigical goals..and tactical victories are like pawns. Even if it lost that doesnt mean you lost the war.

Strategical goals are much more important than tactical victories.

You go to war with stratigical goals in mind..not with tactical goals.


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Because war is all about stratigical goals..and tactical victories are like pawns. Even if it lost that doesnt mean you lost the war.
> 
> Strategical goals are much more important then tactical victories.
> 
> You go to war with stratigical goals in mind..not with tactical goals.



Like I said before, you are stuck on a one track view of looking at it from the 99 conflict instead of seeing how this may have had better uses in a different conflict.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> Like I said before, you are stuck on a one track view of looking at it from the 99 conflict instead of seeing how this may have had better uses in a different conflict.


Those strategies cant be employed furthur in india pak conflicts.

Because again Pak become agressor. And diplomacy would squeez you out.


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Those strategies cant be employed furthur in india pak conflicts.
> 
> Because again Pak become agressor. And diplomacy would squeez you out.



I will reiterate this for the last time because I'm bored of going in circles. Get the Kargil conflict out of your head as if it NEVER happened, then take the idea behind it and apply it in another conflict where aggression has already occurred; perhaps then there is hope for you to understand what I am talking about.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> I will reiterate this for the last time because I'm bored of going in circles. Get the Kargil conflict out of your head as if it NEVER happened, then take the idea behind it and apply it in another conflict where aggression has already occurred; perhaps then there is hope for you to understand what I am talking about.


Ok enlighten me with example.


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Ok enlighten me with example.



Indian aggression in Siachen for e.g. 
Kargil as a offensive-defence move rather than the first blow.


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## kaku1

Oscar said:


> Indian aggression in Siachen for e.g.
> Kargil as a offensive-defence move rather than the first blow.


Again you going way wrong.

The main purpose was not to sit on negotiation table with India to discuss if you retreat from Siachen,, then we retreat from Kargil.

But actual purpose was NH 1,, which almost cut Kashmir from mainland India. And then Pak can force IA to retreat from K.


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## SQ8

kaku1 said:


> Again you going way wrong.
> 
> The main purpose was not to sit on negotiation table with India to discuss if you retreat from Siachen,, then we retreat from Kargil.
> 
> But actual purpose was NH 1,, which almost cut Kashmir from mainland India. And then Pak can force IA to retreat from K.



Nope, you are going wrong in reading it from a pinhole. The purpose of Kargil was "The target was a vulnerable section of Dras-Kargil Road, whose blocking would virtually cut off the crucial life-line which carried the bulk of supplies needed for daily consumption as well as annual winter-stocking in Leh-Siachen Sector". 

Essentially to create e stranglehold that could have relieved pressure in other areas in case of a conflict. Not create a conflict based on that pressure hold.


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## SipahSalar

Indian Patriot said:


> WHO TOLD YOU AMERICA IS LOSING?


Um. how about everyone?


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## @nline

Razia Sultana said:


> Please finish off your Zarb-e-Azb first.


They are doing their job perfectly. Because all the weapon they found there was Made in India.


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## jhungary

Color_Less_Sky said:


> I never mentioned Pakistani channels by the way, so make whatever sense you want to.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay I thought they said they wanted OBL. And have they killed Afghan Taliban?
> 
> Did you know America itself declared head of TTP as terrorist recently and on the other hand tried to tell the world that Afghan Taliban are not terrorists but insurgents? Do you see a difference?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever see a body, just answer me this and I will agree to rest of your post.



probably a thousand time saying this..

The US did not say Afghan Taliban were not terrorist, infact they were and still in the Terrorist watch list by DOT .

The speech you refer to as dor American declaring Taliban does not exist is the White house press chief getting grilled by the press about Jordian hostage exchange. In that conference, the press scretary did not explicitly say taliban is not terrorist. He said, Taliban is an insurgency group, but he never say Taliban is not a terrorist organisation, as far as i know, an insurgency group can also be a terrorist organisation.


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## l'ingénieur

Most people on this thread are clueless and have no idea what they are talking about. Pervez saying what he said does not mean we will go and attack India, America or some other superpower. If that is what you made out from this video then I suggest you yourself checked for Asperger's syndrome or autism.


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## Zarvan

The war on terror has made sure our Army is bedt ready and equipped to hunt down enemiex

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## Fracker

Indian Patriot said:


> The Pakistanis cannot fight an organised army, never mind "big army like India". The reason Pakistan invested so heavily in "non-state actors" like Taliban, LeT, JuD etc. is because the army needed scapegoats to bind India in one place while they plan strategic moves. Unfortunately Pakistan did never calculate about a certain OBL and the effects of 9/11. The Taliban felt betrayed by Pakistan siding with US and now you have a civil war in Pakistan which is unlikely to end because the rebels have emotional and ideological support from conservative Pakistani society.
> 
> The Pakistani army has been a flop show in their zarb e azb, yes the Pakistanis are pounding furiously at rebel cities with bombardment and air power. But the Pakistanis forgot what they had been shouting to USA all along, indiscriminate bombing only adds numbers to rebel cause. To kill 10 militants Pakistan bombards an entire village killing 10 militants and 100 civilians with them. 10 years has passed but the end of Pakistani civil war is still not in sight. One commander dies, another one comes up to take his place. More and more ground has been lost by Pakistan in the war and the casualties simply keep mounting.
> 
> A "professional" army that cannot defeat taliban in their own backyard cannot make such lofty claims.



TTP is not Taliban first. So Pakistan didn't created them, its India and raw who open up 6 consulates when USA came to Afghanistan, all were breading some paid criminals to use them against Pakistan.

Also, your claims about civilians dead is also absurd. When this operation started they moved all civilians out and ensured only unarmed people joined IDP camps. So your knowledge lacks shows how ignorant and illiterate u r.

Last, the army which can beat gorilla warfare, can easily take the any thing like a India army, who can run away once time comes. And Pakistani gorilla warfare tactics will ensure Pakistan will always have the last laugh.


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## SecularNationalist

kaku1 said:


> Ohh, I need to find cover,, I am afraid.


Well i guess you are another troll on this forum who think no matter what happen only his /her country will win the war 
@jbgt90 Sir! please come and teach him some reality lessons

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## Imtiaz_Sarwar

A very interesting thread. For all the ideas that have been presented so far in this thread, what impartial, unbiased, honest and realistic conclusions we can draw from this thread ?


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## PoKeMon

waz said:


> The Taliban are nothing remotely resembling a "rag tag" militia.



They are, at best PA is involved in COIN ops which comes nowhere close to significant mobilisation.


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## Zarvan

IND_PAK said:


> They are, at best PA is involved in COIN ops which comes nowhere close to significant mobilisation.


TTP are far more tough and brutal to face than Indian Forces


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## PoKeMon

Zarvan said:


> TTP are far more tough and brutal to face than Indian Forces



You are gonna lose then... sadly.


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## Zarvan

IND_PAK said:


> You are gonna lose then... sadly.


They are pretty much defeated mate they are far less now than they were few years back and those left will be eliminated soon to


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## PoKeMon

Zarvan said:


> They are pretty much defeated mate they are far less now than they were few years back and those left will be eliminated soon to



Ok, so they were tougher than Indian army and got defeated with 20-30% of PA capability?

I commend your intelligence.


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## Zarvan

IND_PAK said:


> Ok, so they were tougher than Indian army and got defeated with 20-30% of PA capability?
> 
> I commend your intelligence.


Mr do us a favor send troops to Afghanistan and face Afghan Taliban yourself like your new master USA was doing and lost miserably


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## PoKeMon

Zarvan said:


> Mr do us a favor send troops to Afghanistan and face Afghan Taliban yourself like your new master USA was doing and lost miserably



Mr why should we fight Taliban?

Mr why not Taliban comes into India as freely as it comes into Pakistan?

Mr if Taliban is tougher than Indian army and you can defeat them, why not in 60 years you come and defeat India and get beck Kashmir and also Bangladesh?

Tell me Mr?


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## Rashid Mahmood



Reactions: Like Like:
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## Indian Patriot

SipahSalar said:


> Um. how about everyone?



Only Pakistan and taliban believes that. Rest believe that US has served its purpose.



Fracker said:


> TTP is not Taliban first. So Pakistan didn't created them, its India and raw who open up 6 consulates when USA came to Afghanistan, all were breading some paid criminals to use them against Pakistan.



It's just your opinion and a conspiracy theory. TTP is taliban, they did not take the name taliban just because it sounds cool. India has consulates in Afghanistan because it is taking part in the rebuilding of the country so that Afghanistan does not again fall prey to proxy forces. 



Fracker said:


> Also, your claims about civilians dead is also absurd. When this operation started they moved all civilians out and ensured only unarmed people joined IDP camps. So your knowledge lacks shows how ignorant and illiterate u r.



So all civilians are moved out? If that is the case it is clear that only TTP are present in the area and the army can launch a full out assault against TTP like Lanka did against LTTE. What is stopping you, is it lack of manpower or lack of resources? Your attempts at getting personal and lack of facts in your arguments shows how brainwashed you are. Stop trolling. 



Fracker said:


> Last, the army which can beat gorilla warfare, can easily take the any thing like a India army, who can run away once time comes. And Pakistani gorilla warfare tactics will ensure Pakistan will always have the last laugh.



There is no such thing as "gorilla warfare", a military does not fight gorillas or chimpanzees. It is guerrilla warfare. 

Fighting a conventional war and an asymmetrical war are too different things. In conventional conflict the army has to locate and shoot down the enemy. In guerrilla war the army has to first identify the enemy from a civilian population and neutralise the targets without endangering civilian lives. Heavy weapons are not to be used. 

You sure type like a gorilla yourself.


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## BetterPakistan

Well said by Ex-President.


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## Blue_Eyes

Thank God, atleast he has said BIGGER ARMY for Indian army and not Dark, dwarf, weak Hindu Army, or dot head army
anyway How to do a perfect suicide, we have seen 4 times from our Competitors  , hope we see it again for 5th time, best of luck


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## Stephen Cohen

Oscar said:


> . Kargil for e.g. was a brilliant strategy, just the worst possible time to implement it.



Also @kaku1 

Excuse me you are wrong on both counts
Kargil was TACTICALLY Brilliant BUT

1 Kargil was a bad strategy because you could not factor in India's infantry mobilisation
Heavy Artillerry and Air power

2 The timing was PERFECT because of

A Lahore peace accord had been signed in February
B The guard was down ; India always VACATED the posts in winter
C The Nuclear tests had made it impossible that India expand the conflict
That was known to Gen Musharraf

India DID not cross the LOC because Pakistan was creating a Nuclear scare
And Pakistan wanted the whole world to INTERVENE to prevent a nuclear conflict

We WON the military conflict without crossing the LOC and that got the Global support in our favour

Indo US relations were bad ; India was being portrayed as a rouge state
for conducting Nuclear Tests
STILL we could rally the world in our favour while beating back the Intruders

Pakistan was Hoping for a ceasefire so that it could threaten our Highway and Siachen

We continued fighting till LOC was restored


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## T90TankGuy

SecularNationalist said:


> Well i guess you are another troll on this forum who think no matter what happen only his /her country will win the war
> @jbgt90 Sir! please come and teach him some reality lessons


Let kids be kids sirji.

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## Nike

Gorilla Forces?


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## Stephen Cohen

@Oscar @jbgt90 @Indian Patriot @kaku1 @MilSpec

Please Read this article Calling the Indian Army Chief's Bluff

*I say with all the authority and professionalism that 'THE INDIAN ARMY IS INCAPABLE OF UNDERTAKING ANY CONVENTIONAL OPERATIONS AT PRESENT WHAT TO TALK OF ENLARGING CONVENTIONAL CONFLICT'*

This Gentleman* Lt Gen Javed Nasir is saying something about India's lack of capabilities
in February March 1999*

With such faulty inputs ; how can anybody say that Kargil was Good strategy

The first rule of war is to properly estimate the enemies capabilities

Because contrary to Gen Nasir's views ; India did enlarge and esclate the conflict


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## Manindra

war khan said:


> Bravery of Indian people after wagah bomb blasts



Indian Security Forces does not allow visitors for flag ceremony on next day of the blast.
Indian lives are not cheap for our security forces.


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## Ray_of_Hope

Manindra said:


> Indian Security Forces does not allow visitors for flag ceremony on next day of the blast.
> Indian lives are not cheap for our security forces.


Lame excuses................


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## Manindra

war khan said:


> Lame excuses................


You should check Indian news paper on that date


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## Ray_of_Hope

Manindra said:


> You should check Indian news paper on that date


U want me to believe those newspapers which dont have any credibility at all.


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## Manindra

war khan said:


> U want me to believe those newspapers which dont have any credibility at all.


So you believe only on ISPR


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## Ray_of_Hope

Manindra said:


> So you believe only on ISPR


Yep something like that,Some indian BSF source.....if u have any at all


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## Menace2Society

Pakistan will be remembered in history as the nation who achieved the unthinkable. Sit down and take a moment of what was accomplished in 1965. Pakistanis when their very survival is at risk can do what no other man is capable of.

260,000 troops against 700,000 troops. 






14.2 Bloody Miles.

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## Manindra

war khan said:


> Yep something like that,Some indian BSF source.....if u have any at all


We have not ISPR like agency

http://www.aninews.in/videogallery2...cancels-it-in-wake-of-wagah-border-blast.html


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## I.R.A

jhungary said:


> Taliban is an insurgency group, but he never say Taliban is not a terrorist organisation, as far as i know, an insurgency group can also be a terrorist organisation.



Well then how about 1971 and Mukti Bahini? Terrorist organization? If yes then India all the way supported them, trained them funded them................................. your views?


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## jhungary

Color_Less_Sky said:


> Well then how about 1971 and Mukti Bahini? Terrorist organization? If yes then India all the way supported them, trained them funded them................................. your views?



lol, why do you think I know anything in 1971? I wasnt even born then, and not being an Indian or Pakistani I would no idea on what's what.


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## The enlightened

Oscar said:


> then take the idea behind it and apply it in another conflict where aggression has already occurred; perhaps then there is hope for you to understand what I am talking about.


The only reason Pakistani forces were able to take those peaks was because of the 'gentleman's agreement' and because Indian intel failed to detect the insurgents in time.. If any aggression occurred, no bloody way could the 'idea' be implemented.


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## Fracker

Indian Patriot said:


> Only Pakistan and taliban believes that. Rest believe that US has served its purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> It's just your opinion and a conspiracy theory. TTP is taliban, they did not take the name taliban just because it sounds cool. India has consulates in Afghanistan because it is taking part in the rebuilding of the country so that Afghanistan does not again fall prey to proxy forces.
> 
> 
> 
> So all civilians are moved out? If that is the case it is clear that only TTP are present in the area and the army can launch a full out assault against TTP like Lanka did against LTTE. What is stopping you, is it lack of manpower or lack of resources? Your attempts at getting personal and lack of facts in your arguments shows how brainwashed you are. Stop trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as "gorilla warfare", a military does not fight gorillas or chimpanzees. It is guerrilla warfare.
> 
> Fighting a conventional war and an asymmetrical war are too different things. In conventional conflict the army has to locate and shoot down the enemy. In guerrilla war the army has to first identify the enemy from a civilian population and neutralise the targets without endangering civilian lives. Heavy weapons are not to be used.
> 
> You sure type like a gorilla yourself.



Does that even matter how you spell ? I am not an expert but am pretty sure what I typed. Unlike you who still living in dreams of being bigger and better ... Bla bla...


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## Indian Patriot

Fracker said:


> Does that even matter how you spell ? I am not an expert but am pretty sure what I typed. Unlike you who still living in dreams of being bigger and better ... Bla bla...



In context of the thread, yes India is bigger and better than Pakistan army.


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## PATHAN786KING

IND_PAK said:


> You are gonna lose then... sadly.


i m 110% sure at the end of this year taliban will be finish


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## singh sahab

PATHAN786KING said:


> i m 110% sure at the end of this year taliban will be finish


Which one? Good taliban or Bad taliban? Or both?

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## waz

IND_PAK said:


> They are, at best PA is involved in COIN ops which comes nowhere close to significant mobilisation.



No they are not and no military analyst says that. Please provide references as to who says this. There are many experts who have described the Taliban as quite the potent fighting force.

I agree it's not full mobilisation, but as the old saying goes "everything keeps you on your toes". It's better than endless drills or having fancy weapons without no real combat experience to go with it, cough, cough i.e. Global Firepower rankings.


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## Gauss

Musharraf has said nothing out of the ordinary. He has only stated the obvious. If anyone bothers to read military history they will know that much smaller side doesnt just throw the towel, war doesnt happen that way. The smaller side tries to make it as difficult as possible for the much larger side to achieve its aims. It tries to inflict maximum casualties on the larger side and frustrate them as much as possible. This very nature of war prevents much larger sides from attacking smaller sides most of the times.
As an example consider this, after the Battle of Kursk in summer of 1943 this was the situation on the eastern front.





Thats 12 German armies up against 61 Soviet armies. Wouldve been a stroll in the park after that for the soviets, wouldnt it ? But no, not at all. The Soviets lost a further *3.5 million = 35 lac* men in the next two years. The two years in which Germans have been supposed to make the biggest blunders.
Are 35 lac Indians willing to die just to capture Pakistan ?


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## MadDog

Indian active military strength:1,325,000 while Pakistan's 617,000 which is a 2:1 almost, while for an offensive force you need to have the advantage of 3:1, Indians don't have such a big numerical advantage that they attack Pakistan, while Pakistan has to follow offensive defence.


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