# Hatf-IX - Tactical Multi-Tube Ballistic Missile



## HAIDER

Named Nasr. Hataf 9. More info on its way.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Any info about this new type of MRL?

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## JonAsad

????????????????????????????????------

Dont keep me waiting -

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## Jango

geo have the video....range is 60 km...and they are saying that it is a strategic missile....is this true???


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## compak

*Pakistan successfully tests fires ballistic missile*

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan successfully tested a surface-to-surface, short-range ballistic missile Nasr, Geo News reported.

Nasr, a multi-tube ballistic missile of Hatf series can hit with atomic warhead up to 60kms, according to a statement by the Inter Services Public Relations.

Geo tv | Geo News | Pakistan, Sports, World, Video News


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## Jango

Pakistan test-fires new nuclear-capable missile - Yahoo! News
thats all at the moment...and whats the undisclosed location??...what can it be?


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## monitor

What it mean that it can launch couple of missile from same launcher same time like mrls ? how many at the same time ?


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## Imran Khan



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## farhan_9909

what does multi tube means.?

and 60km seems like it is a MRL


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## Tehmasib

A military statement says the &#8220;Hatf 9&#8243; missile was successfully launched from an undisclosed location on Tuesday.

It says the missile has a range of 60 kilometers and can carry nuclear warheads with high accuracy.

Pakistan routinely test-fires what it claims are indigenously developed short and long-range missiles capable of carrying the country&#8217;s nuclear weapons


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## Bratva

Pakistan to Produce A100 MLRS


Authoritative sources from the Pakistani defence industry sector told Kanwa that the Suparco factory in Karachi is poised to produce the Chinese-designed A100 10-barrel Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS).

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/77251-pakistan-produce-a100-mlrs.html

Looks like, First batch of A-100 produced in Pakistan Tested


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## mughaljee

Happy to get another achievment


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## JonAsad

compak said:


> *Pakistan successfully tests fires ballistic missile*
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan successfully tested a surface-to-surface, short-range ballistic missile Nasr, Geo News reported.
> 
> Nasr, a multi-tube ballistic missile of Hatf series can hit with atomic warhead up to 60kms, according to a statement by the Inter Services Public Relations.
> 
> Geo tv | Geo News | Pakistan, Sports, World, Video News


 
Multiple SRBM  with in the area of 60Km  carrying Atomic Warhead  

Isn't it to risky and close to avoid any collateral?-
Lets rename it suicide MRL - j/k


Congratulations Pakistan --

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## Markus

What is a multi tube ballistic missile.......lolz.

Either its a MLRS or is it a ballistic missile, or is it a combination?

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## farhan_9909

A100 look different


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## Markus

^ Looks like a MRLS


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## JonAsad

Markus said:


> What is a multi tube ballistic missile.......lolz.
> 
> Either its a MLRS or is it a ballistic missile, or is it a combination?


 
Leave that- but when ever this suicide MRL is in the battle field- Run like hell 

---------- Post added at 07:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 AM ----------




farhan_9909 said:


> A100 look different


 
Thats a rocket-

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

whatever it is. . . . IT IS GREAT!!


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## Markus

Glorious Resolve said:


> Leave that- but when ever this suicide MRL is in the battle field- Run like hell


 
Come on, its just 60 kms range.

Btw, have you seen the Russian Smerch in action ?


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## holysinner

its a multi tube ballistic missile launcher.........means much more fire power and acts as a force multiplier. specifically used against enemy field HQ and large enemy armored and infantry movements with conventional warheads and in case of large scale invasion, nuclear war heads.


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## Markus

What on earth is a multi tube ballistic missile launcher ?


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## Bratva

A very very bad reporting done by our newspapers. A-100 System probably renamed, Nasr (victory in arabic).

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## DESERT FIGHTER

compak said:


> *Pakistan successfully tests fires ballistic missile*
> 
> RAWALPINDI: Pakistan successfully tested a surface-to-surface, short-range ballistic missile Nasr, Geo News reported.
> 
> *Nasr, a multi-tube ballistic missile of Hatf series can hit with atomic warhead up to 60kms,* according to a statement by the Inter Services Public Relations.
> 
> Geo tv | Geo News | Pakistan, Sports, World, Video News



Stupid journos...



mafiya said:


> Pakistan to Produce A100 MLRS
> 
> 
> Authoritative sources from the Pakistani defence industry sector told Kanwa that the Suparco factory in Karachi is poised to produce the Chinese-designed A100 10-barrel Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS).
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/77251-pakistan-produce-a100-mlrs.html
> 
> Looks like, First batch of A-100 produced in Pakistan Tested


 
*The range of the a-100 is above 120 km n was tested already before its purchase with tot,......... n used during Azme nau ex*...... n is called a1ea(the atest n most advanced version of a-100) or smthin............while this is called Nasr.

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## Areesh

Can't wait for the details. Looks interesting by the way.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

may be they might have been modified A-100 and turned it into a multi-missile launcher but on the expense of range. . .

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## Windjammer

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan, Tuesday successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed short-range surface-to-surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, Geo News reported.

According to ISPR sources, it has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistans Strategic Weapons Development Programme at shorter ranges. The Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, NASR, with a Range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats, the sources said.

Doesn't sound like an ordinary MRLS.

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## Bratva

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Stupid journos...
> 
> 
> 
> *The range of the a-100 is above 120 km n was tested already before its purchase with tot,......... n used during Azme nau ex*...... n is called a1ea(the atest n most advanced version of a-100) or smthin............while this is called Nasr.


 
I know Mate. You haven't closley read my words. " IT MAY BE THE FIRST INDIGENOUS A-100 PRODUCED IN PAKISTAN TESTED". The one Tested in Azm e Nau. was a purchased variant tested. not a local version

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Windjammer said:


> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan, Tuesday successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed short-range surface-to-surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, Geo News reported.
> 
> According to ISPR sources, it has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development Programme at shorter ranges. The Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, NASR, with a Range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats, the sources said.
> 
> Doesn't sound like an ordinary MRLS.


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## Riz

Well if they are Hatf serial as they stated Hatf-9 then it surely not multi barrel rocket system, it will be SRBM but the range 60 km is probably wrongly stated by the media

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Windjammer said:


> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan, Tuesday successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed short-range surface-to-surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, Geo News reported.
> 
> According to ISPR sources, it has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development Programme at shorter ranges. The Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, NASR, with a Range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats, the sources said.
> 
> Doesn't sound like an ordinary MRLS.


 
miniature warheads......... interesting.

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## TaimiKhan

Well it seems to be an upgraded multi-barrel rocket system. If you guys remember the below news, where there was talk of 40KM range & more for 122mm system with Anglo-French company Roxel. So, it seems to be a fruit from this agreement. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...ench-company-signs-mou-rocket-technology.html


And guys don't rely much on these kind of news items from newspapers as they have no idea what they are talking about. 

Either its a new system of MBRL system or an upgraded one. 

Army seems to be going with the A-100 long range system and with another 60-80KM system as the older 122mm with 20KM range is not sufficient. 

But time will tell what the tested system is in real.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

mafiya said:


> I know Mate. You haven't closley read my words. " IT MAY BE THE FIRST INDIGENOUS A-100 PRODUCED IN PAKISTAN TESTED". The one Tested in Azm e Nau. was a purchased variant tested. not a local version


 

They would really be stupid to test a 120 km+ ranged MLRS at just 60 kms...........instead of the whole range.... dont u think?

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## Markus

MRLS with nuclear payload ??????

Interesting, very interesting.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

TaimiKhan said:


> Well it seems to be an upgraded multi-barrel rocket system. If you guys remember the below news, where there was talk of 40KM range & more for 122mm system with Anglo-French company Roxel. So, it seems to be a fruit from this agreement.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...ench-company-signs-mou-rocket-technology.html
> 
> 
> 
> And guys don't rely much on these kind of news items from newspapers as they have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> Either its a new system of MBRL system or an upgraded one.
> 
> Army seems to be going with the A-100 long range system and with another 60-80KM system as the older 122mm with 20KM range is not sufficient.
> 
> But time will tell what the tested system is in real.


 

The krl-122? yeah i think ur right... but this nuclear thing .....

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## Windjammer

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> miniature warheads......... interesting.


 
The media may have dropped a few clangers but,
The designation HATF-9 makes it all the more interesting.

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## Tiger Awan

Windjammer said:


> The designation HATF-9 makes it all the more interesting.


 


hatf-9 designation is the biggest clue we have

ispr will not tell anything and media will keep talking

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## TaimiKhan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The krl-122? yeah i think ur right... but this nuclear thing .....


 
Yaar, Pakistani media kaaaa tu pata hi hai. 

Kiyaa sae kiyaa bana daitay hain

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## Windjammer

TaimiKhan said:


> Yaar, Pakistani media kaaaa tu pata hi hai.
> 
> Kiyaa sae kiyaa bana daitay hain


Bahi, media tu mad dog hey, 
I understand that it's battlefield weapon with miniaturised nukes.

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## Areesh

This Hatf-9 thing is interesting. If it is an upgraded Krl122, why have they named it with this designation???

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## Kompromat

*Food for thought *

Pak successfully conducts first flight test of short range surface to surface Hatf 9 missile 
ISLAMABAD, April 19 (APP): Pakistan, Tuesday successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed short range surface to surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf 9.

According to ISPR sources, it has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development Programme at shorter ranges.The Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, NASR, with a Range of 60 km, *carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy.This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats*, the sources said.


Does it clear why its so short range?

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## Adnan Faruqi

*Pakistan test fires nuclear-capable missile*

(AFP)  1 hour ago

ISLAMABAD  *Pakistan's military on Tuesday said* it had successfully test-fired a newly developed short-range ballistic missile capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

The military said in a statement that the "Hatf 9" missile with a range of 60 kilometres (40 miles) "could carry nuclear warheads of appropriate yields with high accuracy".

"The missile has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan's strategic weapons development programme at shorter ranges," it said, adding that "this quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats".

South Asian rivals India and Pakistan -- which have fought three wars, two of them over the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir -- have routinely carried out missile tests since both demonstrated nuclear weapons capability in 1998.

Pakistan's arsenal includes short-range, medium and long-range missiles named after Muslim conquerors.

Pakistan carried out nuclear weapons tests in May 1998, following similar tests by India.

The neighbours were on the brink of a nuclear conflict in 2002 over tensions about disputed Kashmir, but began a slow-moving peace dialogue in 2004, which resumed in March after three years of suspension following November 2008 Mumbai attacks.

AFP: Pakistan test fires nuclear-capable missile
*
Pakistani army says it successfully test-fires newly developed short-range missile*

By The Associated Press  2 hours ago

ISLAMABAD  Pakistan's military says it has test-fired a newly developed short-range missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead.

*A military statement says* the "Hatf 9" missile was successfully launched from an undisclosed location on Tuesday.

It says the missile has a range of 60 kilometres (35 miles) and can carry nuclear warheads with high accuracy.

*Pakistan routinely test-fires what it claims are indigenously developed* short and long-range missiles capable of carrying the country's nuclear weapons.

The international community closely watches Pakistan's weapons program because the nation has fought three wars with its nuclear-armed neighbour, India, since 1947.

Copyright © 2011 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved. 
The Canadian Press: Pakistani army says it successfully test-fires newly developed short-range missile


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## DESERT FIGHTER

A nuclear missile with 60 km range........ its a miniature warhead for sure.
Congrats.


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## JonAsad

Confusion- Confusion-


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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> Bahi, media tu mad dog hey,
> I understand that it's battlefield weapon with miniaturised nukes.


 
We don't need such a system nor do we have extra resources to invest in such projects. 

This task can be well performed by air craft or by the other 180-300Km ranged Abdali & Ghaznavi missiles or even the Hatf-1 series if they are still in operational mode. 

You can't bring a nuke warhead to such a close range of the battlefield. Things can go wrong too. 

So, i believe this is some short range MBRL and the journalist covering the news has reported it wrongly. 

Nothing has come off the ISPR, which normally issues notifications whenever a missile is tested.

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## Black Widow

Poor reporting, The reporter is unaware of Defense technology ... 60 KM Nuke, sounds good, But does India or Pakistan have such kind of portable (Small size) nuke which can be used for limited area???

I think it is something like this.. 
ImageShack&#174; - Online Photo and Video Hosting
couple of missile in tube launcher... 

can any of Paksiatni frnd confirm if i am right...


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## The Deterrent

Basically, Nasr has been designed to take out the Indian Army,which has taken a n area in a war...it is specifically designed to deliver a nuclear payload...the term multibarrel means 4-6 missiles per vehicle...
Hatf-1 is cumbersome and old...Abdali and Ghaznavi are too big for this...
We are talking about delivering a tactical nuclear payload to a very secure target which the aircrafts cannot reach...


*For the new readers of this thread,heres the video*

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## Kompromat

AhaseebA said:


> Basically, Nasr has been designed to take out the Indian Army,which has taken a n area in a war...it is specifically designed to deliver a nuclear payload...the term multibarrel means 4-6 missiles per vehicle...
> Hatf-1 is cumbersome and old...Abdali and Ghaznavi are too big for this...
> We are talking about a *delivering a tactical nuclear payload to a very secure target which the aircrafts cannot reach...*


 
And this is what we call the strategic value !


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## DESERT FIGHTER

its a hatrick happy news..........
1)POF made tank gun.
2)POF/HIT Plans to build arty guns for PA.
3)Now a tactical nuke.


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## JonAsad

> We are talking about a delivering a tactical nuclear payload to a very secure target which the aircrafts cannot reach...



Use of a tactical nuke will be a strategic blunder- while it can be used as a last resort weapon if all else fails- using tactical nukes to secure heavily defended targets doesn't look feasible-


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## Dil Pakistan

Can it be MIRV


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## Riz

Glorious Resolve said:


> Use of a tactical nuke will be a strategic blunder- while it can be used as a last resort weapon if all else fails- using tactical nukes to secure heavily defended targets doesn't look feasible-


 
Surely it is not a feasible idea to nuke some one in between 60 km range, but it will be helpful when we attacked from multiple sides.


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## The Deterrent

Glorious Resolve said:


> Use of a tactical nuke will be a strategic blunder- while it can be used as a last resort weapon if all else fails- using tactical nukes to secure heavily defended targets doesn't look feasible-


 
It is feasible for an army like ours....we all know that how much we are lagging behind in conventional weapons.....probably the first time a country is trying to counter conventional weapons with nuclear ones.....imagine Indian army capturing an area in thar desert...now our army cannot fight back and we cannot get back our area .....suppose the airforce is not in that position because of low quantity+quality and very potent air defences...Nasr will provide very fast and assured destruction.

Remember that the missiles specialized for nuclear use are made keeping in view that there might be a defeat situation so we could use them as a last resort...

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## The Deterrent

Aeronaut said:


> And this is what we call the strategic value !


 
Which is also that reason that the ASFC officials said that this would increase the *strategic capability*,which refers to the nuclear warhead...

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## The Deterrent

and BTW ,Nasr is an indigenous system,and it does not relate to A-100,KRL-122 etc...they are rockets,and this is a proper ballistic missle...
Its bigger than a MBRL rocket...and most probably it will replace Hatf-1

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## Dil Pakistan

Is it possible that it is MIRV ??? Few months ago the news was around that Pakistan's MIRV is round the corner


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## Markus

I must say this is a very unique system but I am also wondering that its pretty dangerous configuration to have nukes in it.

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------

MIRV on a missile with 60 kms range.....

Are you guys insane ??????????

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## SEAL

Its look like Ballistic missile not MRLS rocket.
mms://wm.vitalstreamcdn.com/stream_geo_tv/20110419/1200_Geo_Headlines.wmv


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## JonAsad

Dil Pakistan said:


> Can it be MIRV


 
Lol- why MIRV- It already is MRL


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## Markus

^ Adding to my post above.

How can you have MIRV in it ?

Its not gonna leave the earths atmosphere?


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## Dil Pakistan

Markus said:


> I must say this is a very unique system but I am also wondering that its pretty dangerous configuration to have nukes in it.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------
> 
> MIRV on a missile with 60 kms range.....
> 
> Are you guys insane ??????????


 
Markus! it was only a question and you can reply in a civilized manner.


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## aks18

i think pakistan's main focus is on short medirum range missiles n making it lethal against enemy so that in possible nuclear conflict pakistan can take down its enemy by using these missiles

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## JonAsad

AhaseebA said:


> It is feasible for an army like ours....we all know that how much we are lagging behind in conventional weapons.....probably the first time a country is trying to counter conventional weapons with nuclear ones.....imagine Indian army capturing an area in thar desert...now our army cannot fight back and we cannot get back our area .....suppose the airforce is not in that position because of low quantity+quality and very potent air defences...Nasr will provide very fast and assured destruction.
> 
> Remember that the missiles specialized for nuclear use are made keeping in view that there might be a defeat situation so we could use them as a last resort...


 
Sir Jee- whats bothering me is the Nuke factor- Once the N-word is out- How can we cope with the other sides Nuclear retaliation?-


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## Markus

Dil Pakistan said:


> Markus! it was only a question and you can reply in a civilized manner.


 
lolzzzzz....what was so uncivilized in my reply??????


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## JonAsad

AhaseebA said:


> It is feasible for an army like ours....we all know that how much we are lagging behind in conventional weapons.....probably the first time a country is trying to counter conventional weapons with nuclear ones.....imagine Indian army capturing an area in thar desert...now our army cannot fight back and we cannot get back our area .....suppose the airforce is not in that position because of low quantity+quality and very potent air defences...Nasr will provide very fast and assured destruction.
> 
> Remember that the missiles specialized for nuclear use are made keeping in view that there might be a defeat situation so we could use them as a last resort...


 
Sir Jee- whats bothering me is the Nuke factor- Once the N-word is out- How can we cope with the other sides Nuclear retaliation?-


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## AvidSpice

Glorious Resolve said:


> Sir Jee- whats bothering me is the Nuke factor- Once the N-word is out- How can we cope with the other sides Nuclear retaliation?-


 
Precisely the question that came to my mind after reading some posts. Some people would use their nuke even at the slightest provocation without even realizing the consequences. Sad.


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## The Deterrent

Dil Pakistan said:


> Markus! it was only a question and you can reply in a civilized manner.


 
It was a stupid question...and he replied rightly...
Look,MIRV is different than multiple warheads or sub-munitions...if you wanted to ask this,the answer is no...only a single warhead will be mounted.


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## The Deterrent

self delete

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------




Glorious Resolve said:


> Sir Jee- whats bothering me is the Nuke factor- Once the N-word is out- How can we cope with the other sides Nuclear retaliation?-


 
That is a BIG question,and honestly,I cannot answer it...
Maybe the warhead used is of such a low yield that maybe,maybe,maybe the Indians do not retaliate with nukes...


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## AvidSpice

AhaseebA said:


> self delete
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That is a BIG question,and honestly,I cannot answer it...
> Maybe the warhead used is of such a low yield that maybe,maybe,maybe the Indians do not retaliate with nukes...


 
A nuclear attack is a nuclear attack. There is NO High Yield or Low Yield attack. India will retaliate for sure. God forbid anything happens as this. It will be a bad bad situation for both sides.


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## Areesh

So wiki leak was true after all. 



> U.S. diplomats in Islamabad were told Pakistan was working on producing smaller, tactical nuclear weapons that could be used on the battlefield against Indian troops.



Diplomats warn of India-Pakistan nuclear exchange: WikiLeaks

Interesting. Very interesting.

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## graphican

Tactile Nukes were told to exist at the time of Kargil War and which might well be the reason why India didn't bother to cross border. That was 12 years ago.. Tactile Miniature Nukes would be more of a reality now as Pakistan is pushing on its nuclear muscle since long. 

A very good news.. Congratulations Pakistan!

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## The Deterrent

Avishekh said:


> A nuclear attack is a nuclear attack. There is NO High Yield or Low Yield attack. India will retaliate for sure. God forbid anything happens as this. It will be a bad bad situation for both sides.


 
yeah sure nothing that bad should happen....but I think Pakistan will use nukes when it has lost most of the things...

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## JonAsad

AhaseebA said:


> self delete
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That is a BIG question,and honestly,I cannot answer it...
> Maybe the warhead used is of such a low yield that maybe,maybe,maybe the Indians do not retaliate with nukes...


 
We cannot take decisions based on uncertainty during War-- So this MRLV will be used for conventional payload delivery only- But its nuclear capability will definitely act as a deterrence-


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## The Deterrent

graphican said:


> Tactile Nukes were told to exist at the time of Kargil War and which might well be the reason why India didn't bother to cross border. That was 12 years ago.. Tactile Miniature Nukes would be more of a reality now as Pakistan is pushing on its nuclear muscle since long.
> 
> A very good news.. Congratulations Pakistan!


 
No tactical nukes existed that back....it is a new development...I think that the warhead would be much less than 500kg (as in Hatf-1)


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## Markus

AhaseebA said:


> That is a BIG question,and honestly,I cannot answer it...
> Maybe the warhead used is of such a low yield that maybe,maybe,maybe the Indians do not retaliate with nukes...


 
India has a stated policy that even if Indian soldiers are nuked on foreign soil it will be taken as a nuclear attack on India.


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## JonAsad

AhaseebA said:


> yeah sure nothing that bad should happen....but I think Pakistan will use nukes when it has lost most of the things...


 
Such need will never arise- Insha Allah- Fiker Not-


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## The Deterrent

Glorious Resolve said:


> We cannot take decisions based on uncertainty during War-- So this MRLV will be used for conventional payload delivery only- But its nuclear capability will definitely act as a deterrence-



Of course we cannot...I mean I don't really know that when will it be used during a war....but I have been told that this was made for basically a nuclear use...the multibarrel is a later addition which is good for the conventionals...

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## mautkimaut

AhaseebA said:


> self delete
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> That is a BIG question,and honestly,I cannot answer it...
> Maybe the warhead used is of such a low yield that maybe,maybe,maybe the Indians do not retaliate with nukes...


 
once you cross the nuclear threshold then all the cards are on the table and India does not have a first strike policy but would retaliate with a crippling nuclear attack because then it can justify that nuclear weapon has been used by Pakistan and they are just retaliating

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## graphican

*It is certainly feasible*. Military Brigades do not stay 100s of km within enemy territory.. they have to move ahead and closer to borders and facilitate their foot soldiers, Tanks and APC. A few shots of strategic nuke can neutralize who military brigade and enemy MRL. Pakistan also has JDAMs which require Arial Dropping but this one is unique.. kill from the direction where enemy least expects! 

Hola!


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## The Deterrent

Markus said:


> India has a stated policy that even if Indian soldiers are nuked on foreign soil it will be taken as a nuclear attack on India.


 
and this is the step-wise ASFC policy:

1.a nuclear test of low yield on Pakistani soil.
2.Nuclear attack on the foreign army within Pakistan.
3.Nuclear attack on the military sites of the foreign country.
4.Nuclear attack on the strategic sites of the foreign country.

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## JonAsad

Markus said:


> India has a stated policy that even if Indian soldiers are nuked on foreign soil it will be taken as a nuclear attack on India.


 
What will be your soldiers doing on foreign soil in first place?- 

Well we have made this MRLV for a purpose- so when the need arises it will be used on your soldiers on our soil or your soldiers on your soil-- what your stated policy is will not matter- 

and yeah it will end bad for both of us-


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## graphican

Nuclear retaliation is a must in any case. Now think of a situation in which Nuclear Bombs were dropped yesterday and use of nuclear bombs is open for both of countries. I am recalling the research in which it was revealed that in case of Nuclear war between the two countries.. some 92% of Pakistan's population and some 97% of Indian population would still survive to take the battle to next level. Nuclear Battle is not the "end of everything".. it would be only a start of nuclear waves which both Pakistan and India would throw upon the other. In that case.. these missiles will be one of your best friends.

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## Markus

AhaseebA said:


> and this is the step-wise ASFC policy:
> 
> 1.a nuclear test of low yield on Pakistani soil.
> 2.Nuclear attack on the foreign army within Pakistan.
> 3.Nuclear attack on the military sites of the foreign country.
> 4.Nuclear attack on the strategic sites of the foreign country.





Glorious Resolve said:


> What will be your soldiers doing on foreign soil in first place?-
> 
> Well we have made this MRLV for a purpose- so when the need arises it will be used on your soldiers on our soil or your soldiers on your soil-- what your stated policy is will not matter-
> 
> and yeah it will end bad for both of us-



Gentlemen, any nuclear attack on Indian troops even on Pakistani soil (assuming Indian army manages to reach deep within ur territory) will be treated as a nuke attack on India and we will retaliate accordingly. This is the current policy.


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## The Deterrent

Glorious Resolve said:


> What will be your soldiers doing on foreign soil in first place?-
> 
> Well we have made this MRLV for a purpose- so when the need arises it will be used on your soldiers on our soil or your soldiers on your soil-- what your stated policy is will not matter-
> 
> and yeah it will end bad for both of us-



I think we stop using the R(for rocket) in its name....it is big,and it is ballistic...so how about MBBL...looks like some bank,hehe

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## AvidSpice

Glorious Resolve said:


> What will be your soldiers doing on foreign soil in first place?-
> 
> Well we have made this MRLV for a purpose- so when the need arises it will be used on your soldiers on our soil or your soldiers on your soil-- what your stated policy is will not matter-
> 
> and yeah it will end bad for both of us-


 
They will eat Khayali Pulao!  Kidding. Whether you use Nukes on our soldiers in our soil or your trouble, there will be trouble for both the countries. Pray it never happens.

P.S: I'm surprised how you guys always talk of Nuking. It may sound funny but once nukes are used, your/our generations will suffer miserably. Pray that never happens.

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## The Deterrent

Markus said:


> Gentlemen, any nuclear attack on Indian troops even on Pakistani soil (assuming Indian army manages to reach deep within ur territory) will be treated as a nuke attack on India and we will retaliate accordingly. This is the current policy.


 
I didn't deny the retaliation


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## Areesh

Well it doesn't really matter that what is India's policy regarding the use of nukes or whatever. The Pakistani policy is very clear. Pakistan isn't going to tolerate any invasion total war/limited war/ surgical strike from it's eastern neighbor for any reason. And if it would be provoked or if Pakistan territory would be invaded Pakistan would use all it's resources to defend itself which includes this Missile too. The thing is whenever Pakistan would use this missile it would use it only when it would be under invasion from the enemy. *You want to avoid this situation, scrap all the plans of invading Pakistan for whatever reason you have.* Simple.

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## graphican

A more rational situation would be when both countries have launched nuclear missiles on each other already and now its legal to use nuclear weapons. In that case whats harm to use few nukes against Indian strongholds to neutralize them? 

I wanted to know is there any possibility of launching this missile outside multi-barrel rocket launcher as a single missile? If so then this could be launched by few men instead of a vehicle.


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## pmukherjee

farhan_9909 said:


> A100 look different


 
Those are multiple barreled rocket launchers (MRLs) and not ballistic missiles. Just simple unguided rockets which are area weapons. The inaccuracy of these rockets is compensated by firing many of them into the same area rapidly in salvos. No way they can carry nuclear warheads. These are basically WW-II vintage stuff with better range and higher explosive content. 

In case, the story is really about missiles and not MRLS like these, I do not see the logic of developing missiles with 60 KM range and arming them with nuke warheads. 60 KM would fall within the divisional area of responsibility. It is simply too close for a nuke strike. In a defensive battle scenario, it would definitely be within the territory of the side firing it and the wrong side of the IB. Strong winds would bring the fallout over the troops who fired them within the hour. Doesn't make much sense at all.

My feeling is that Pakistan has tested an indigenous MRL system. The 'nuclear' stuff has been added by ignorant reporters in order to spice up the news. At any rate, 60 KM is not 'strategic' it is very much tactical and that too within divisional artillery range.


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## Windjammer

You guys have made me spend my credits, 

Just have spoken to the ISPR, and I can confirm that Pakistan successfully tested a short range nuclear capable ballistic missile of HATF series.
I should be able to post you the pictures in a little while.

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## The Deterrent

Avishekh said:


> They will eat Khayali Pulao!  Kidding. Whether you use Nukes on our soldiers in our soil or your trouble, there will be trouble for both the countries. Pray it never happens.
> 
> P.S: I'm surprised how you guys always talk of Nuking. It may sound funny but once nukes are used, your/our generations will suffer miserably. Pray that never happens.


 
We don't have many options like India does...we are out-numbered by India,in both quantity and quality(quality in some fields only)...

Kiyani ordered the movement and deployment of the strategic assets after the Indian Sukhois crossed the Pakistani Border...it was due to this reason that India backed off from the surgical strikes thingy...anyway I'm not trying to derail or divert this discussion to the Mumbai events...please dont start off...

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## Markus

India has no plans of any military action against Pakistan but something like 26/11 happens again then things may change very easily.


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## SEAL

Indian military doctrine is to mobilize troops fast, bomb Pakistan and run back before it comes to nuclear war, with this Multi tube Ballistic missile launcher we can destroy their tank formations, artillery positions, command posts with high accuracy. "Nuclear capable" tag is associated with all Pakistani missiles.

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## AvidSpice

Areesh said:


> Well it doesn't really matter that what is India's policy regarding the use of nukes or whatever. The Pakistani policy is very clear. Pakistan isn't going to tolerate any invasion total war/limited war/ surgical strike from it's eastern neighbor for any reason. And if it would be provoked or if Pakistan territory would be invaded Pakistan would use all it's resources to defend itself which includes this Missile too. The thing is whenever Pakistan would use this missile it would use it only when it would be under invasion from the enemy. *You want to avoid this situation, scrap all the plans of invading Pakistan for whatever reason you have.* Simple.


 
All right Sir! All the best! 

By the way, just a question to all the Pakistanis. Why do you think India's gonna invade Pakistan? We have better things to do.


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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> You guys have made me spend my credits,
> 
> Just have spoken to the ISPR, and I can confirm that Pakistan successfully tested a short range nuclear capable ballistic missile of HATF series.
> I should be able to post you the pictures in a little while.


 
Yeh hoyi na baat.


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## Areesh

fox said:


> Indian military doctrine is to mobilize troops fast, bomb Pakistan and run back before it comes to nuclear war, with this Multi Ballistic missile launcher we can destroy their tank formations, artillery positions, command posts with high accuracy. *"Nuclear capable" tag is associated with all Pakistani missiles.*


 
The bold part is necessary. Being nuclear capable doesn't mean it would always be used with a nuclear warhead. Us kai baghair bhi kaam chal sakta hai.

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## DV RULES

Avishekh said:


> They will eat Khayali Pulao!  Kidding. Whether you use Nukes on our soldiers in our soil or your trouble, there will be trouble for both the countries. Pray it never happens.
> 
> P.S: I'm surprised how you guys always talk of Nuking. It may sound funny but once nukes are used, your/our generations will suffer miserably. Pray that never happens.


 
Signal is enough to warn aggressors.
You have not to surprise because *Shruat hum ne nahi ki*. Now it is too late.
Pakistan is responsible nuclear power & not war monger but not blind from its defense.

*Well done Pakistan. Go ahead *


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## graphican

This is the point.. any group of 10 men in India can provoke India for attack. Understand what is the sensitivity of this issue that without even proper research and finding.. India wants to launch attack. So we need to have such armament ready in order to make your government think what it is up to and what it is going to receive as a result.

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## The Deterrent

This development is specifically a reply to the *Cold Start*...

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## Windjammer

There you go guys.

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## AvidSpice

You guys are paranoid.  Anyways, I hope nukes will never be used.


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## brahmastra

graphican said:


> *This is the point.. any group of 10 men in India can provoke India for attack.* Understand what is the sensitivity of this issue that without even proper research and finding.. India wants to launch attack. So we need to have such armament ready in order to make your government think what it is up to and what it is going to receive as a result.



if that is true then we would have launched attack on you after kargil incident,mumbai incident etc.
actually, we would have attack you every year.


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## The Deterrent

Avishekh said:


> All right Sir! All the best!
> 
> By the way, just a question to all the Pakistanis. Why do you think India's gonna invade Pakistan? We have better things to do.


 
Because you wanted to surgical-strike us after 26/11...


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## Windjammer

Dated: April 19, 2011
Rawalpindi - April 19, 2011: 
Pakistan today successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (NASR). The missile has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistans Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter ranges. NASR, with a range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats.

The test was witnessed by Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

On this occasion, the Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said that the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistans strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in that hierarchy of military operations, the NASR Weapon System now provides Pakistan with short range missile capability in addition to the already available medium and long range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.

The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.

----------------------------------------------------



Pakistan successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (NASR) on Tuesday. (19-4-2011) - Photo ISPR


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## Markus

^ What was a retired Lieutenant General doing at the test ?

Why no other active army bigshot ?


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## AvidSpice

AhaseebA said:


> Because you wanted to surgical-strike us after 26/11...


 
A nuclear retaliation for surgical strike? You too strike on our strategic interests surgically..


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## Windjammer

Pakistan successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX

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## kursed

That rocket and even its carrier vehicle seem much like the A100 MRLS.


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## The Deterrent

Windjammer said:


> There you go guys.


 
Woah, now I think that there would be 6-8 tubes and the WH would weigh about 250 kg,anyways I'll get the confirmed info soon...

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## mautkimaut

why would India be really worried about a 60 km missile, it can be brought down by ABM as well as air defence units.


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## The Deterrent

Markus said:


> ^ What was a retired Lieutenant General doing at the test ?
> 
> Why no other active army bigshot ?


 
Qidwai is the heading the Army Strategic Forces Command.....I think the user has to see what he will be using...this a bit smaller thing for Kiyani to come...

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## kursed

Markus said:


> ^ What was a retired Lieutenant General doing at the test ?
> 
> Why no other active army bigshot ?


He's Director SPD, which is basically the mother dept responsible for the upkeep and planning involving all strategic weapon systems of Pakistan.

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## Markus

kursed said:


> He's Director SPD, which is basically the mother dept responsible for the upkeep and planning involving all strategic weapon systems of Pakistan.


 
Oops sorry. I thought he has retired from active service.


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## kursed

For comparison with A100 MRLS, take a look at this:


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## The Deterrent

mautkimaut said:


> why would India be really worried about a 60 km missile, it can be brought down by ABM as well as air defence units.


 
Pakistani scientists are not fools....it is not like the slow Prithvi.....I saw it on news,and I think it would be fast enough...on How low altitude can India intercept?

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## Adios Amigo

Windjammer said:


> There you go guys.


 
Woow...Wooow..... A pleasant surprise..... and that too out of the blue.... this will add a new dimension to the battlefield .... Never heard of such technology ever... may be i am short of knowledge on this issue... or may be its a breakthrough... which to me seems more likely... in any case... well done fellas.

Taimi,
I don't think it would be any dengerous... remember atomic Annie?? This is a tactical weapon... and so far seems very promising one... What i can think of it right now is that it can put an end to cold start strategy.... before one could think of putting it to test.




Regards!

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## Adios Amigo

One more visual feature to notice is... the box shape tube....and not the ordinary circular ones... now many know the advantages of box shaped tubing over the circular ones.


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## Areesh

Maza aa gaya. Wah ji wah.


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## kursed

About the box shaped tubing of NASR and circular tubing of photographed A-100 MRLS, here's Kanwa's complete article informing about the sale of this weapon system.

From the last paragraph:



> In addition, China is now undertaking technological and structural upgrades of both the A-100 and AR-2 multi-rocket launch systems. These upgrades may include replacing their tube-shaped launchers with box-shaped launchers, as the former are much more expensive, cannot be quickly and easily reloaded and are more difficult to maintain. The similar AR-1 MLRS, which are fitted with box-shaped launchers, no longer require transloaders to load the rockets.


Source: UPIAsia

As for the range question, it might be a deliberate attempt to state a shorter range?


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## Windjammer

Adios Amigo said:


> One more visual feature to notice is... the box shape tube....and not the ordinary circular ones... now many know the advantages of box shaped tubing over the circular ones.


 I tell you it's a whole new ball game, you are not only talking nuclear warheads but cluster munitions the lot.
One of the best systems against troop concentrations and armoured regiments.


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## The Deterrent

Another question:

Hatf 1: the 100km
Hatf 2: Abdali
Hatf 3:Ghaznavi
Hatf 4:Ghauri series
Hatf 5:Shaheen series
Hatf 6:???????
Hatf 7:Babur
Hatf 8:Ra'ad
Hatf 9:Nasr

*What is Hatf 6???* any ideas about its name?


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## kursed

Shaheen II is Hatf 6.


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## The Deterrent

kursed said:


> About the box shaped tubing of NASR and circular tubing of photographed A-100 MRLS, here's Kanwa's complete article informing about the sale of this weapon system.
> 
> From the last paragraph:
> 
> Source: UPIAsia
> 
> As for the range question, it might be a deliberate attempt to state a shorter range?


 
O bhai it is a local,new and indigenous system...why would Pakistan just attach a nuke to the A-100s,repaint it and fake the range?...and it is NOT a rocket,its a proper,guided Ballistic missile...


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## Markus

AhaseebA said:


> O bhai it is a local,new and indigenous system...why would Pakistan just attach a nuke to the A-100s,repaint it and fake the range?...and it is NOT a rocket,its a proper,guided Ballistic missile...


 
Err.... I am afraid to call it a ballistic missile given the fact that from the photos its quite evident that it will be following a flight trajectory that of a rocket and wont be fired completely vertically up and will not be leaving earth's atmosphere as well.

So its more of a rocket than a ballistic missile.

It can be called a guided missile but certainly not ballistic.


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## The Deterrent

kursed said:


> Shaheen II is Hatf 6.


 
Look the whole Ghauri series has been given the name Hatf 4.....why a separate name for Shaheen 2?...I believe it will be renamed and given Hatf 5B etc.....Hatf 6 is being kept for another long range ballistic missile...because Hatf 7 starts with cruise missiles...


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## The Deterrent

Hatf 1 and Abdali are not fired vertically...why they are ballistic?


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## KS

Can somebody answer How many tubes are there in one Launcher Vehicle ?




Adios Amigo said:


> One more visual feature to notice is... the box shape tube....and not the ordinary circular ones... *now many know the advantages of box shaped tubing over the circular ones.*


 
Can you please elaborate ?


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## Markus

AhaseebA said:


> Hatf 1 and Abdali are not fired vertically...why they are ballistic?


 
ARe u sure, the info from net shows that its fired vertically up at a deviation and not almost horizontal as todays system.


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## pmukherjee

They are showing MRLS and calling them missiles which are nuclear capable. These are the pics shown by Pakistani friends.

Windjammer 






kursed 





This is the Indian BM-21 Grad










Indian Smerch with max range of 90 KMs










*All* of the above rockets are non nuclear.

A sub kiloton nuclear warhead can be incorporated into any projectile with a caliber of 155 MM or more. No big deal.

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## Tiger Awan

kursed said:


> As for the range question, it might be a deliberate attempt to state a shorter range?


 
i once talked to a person working in nescom. he said that achieving accuracy at shorter range is difficult (as far as ballistic missiles are concerned) because they have to first achieve a certain height and then within no time they have to descend.

so if they can hit a target 60 km away surely they can do go for 100, 150km


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## TaimiKhan

Adios Amigo said:


> Taimi,
> I don't think it would be any dengerous... remember atomic Annie?? This is a tactical weapon... and so far seems very promising one... What i can think of it right now is that it can put an end to cold start strategy.... before one could think of putting it to test.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards!



Well its both dangerous as well as not. Dangerous if it gets hit by enemy fire, either from air or ground, and not if it survives and can reach its target with a nuke warhead. Plus, its not compulsory that it is gonna be used for just nukes, it can give us a good capability to deliver HE or other warheads further deeper into the enemy area. A-100 for deep strikes i-e 150KM or more and this weapon system for 70/80-100KM deep strikes and the 122mm for upto 40KM strikes. 

Plus, this Nasr looks more like the Chinese WS-2 system, but may be a smaller version as the Box shaped launcher seems smaller compared to the WS-2. Here compare it with the below pic:






And the range of 60Km is also very less compared to the size we see in the pic, or may be the range has been reduced to accommodate a larger warhead, meaning the range can be further enhanced by reducing size of warhead and having more fuel for the rocket. 

And is it guided or not, that is something else to be known. If its guided then its a guided missile and if its not guided, calling it a rocket would be much better. 

Am still wondering what's the purpose of the system, if its for nuke delivery, that is strange, but if its gonna be used as MBRL system with 80KM+ range, i am fully with such system.

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## The Deterrent

Tiger Awan said:


> i once talked to a person working in nescom. he said that achieving accuracy at shorter range is difficult (as far as ballistic missiles are concerned) because they have to first achieve a certain height and then within no time they have to descend.
> 
> so if they can hit a target 60 km away surely they can do go for 100, 150km


 
I admit now that I'm not sure why they named it ballistic...the apogee is way too much low for a ballistic missile (I cannot disclose it)


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## Tiger Awan

AhaseebA said:


> I admit now that I'm not sure why they named it ballistic...the apogee is way too much low for a ballistic missile (I cannot disclose it)


ok let us just celebrate a new weapon being tested by our army

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## JonAsad

Guys- please confirm this- the launch vehicle fires multiple guided rocket or ballistic missiles?- Also state why?-


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## Markus

^ Man, thats impressive list


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## TaimiKhan

Markus said:


> Err.... I am afraid to call it a ballistic missile given the fact that from the photos its quite evident that it will be following a flight trajectory that of a rocket and wont be fired completely vertically up and will not be leaving earth's atmosphere as well.
> 
> So its more of a rocket than a ballistic missile.
> 
> It can be called a guided missile but certainly not ballistic.


 
Its not rule of thumb that a ballistic missile has to be launched vertically and that it has to go into space. The can be launched horizontally also. This one can be called a Quasi ballistic missile.

Take example of this: MGM-140 ATACMS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (a horizontally launched missile system)

And also, just for info, kindly read about ballistics, it may give you an idea what ballistic missiles are.

And this one has control fins near the top of the nose of the rocket, meaning its more likely to be guided and has better CEP compared to a rocket. 

So, in my opinion this is a Quasi ballistic missile, which may not be going into upper atmosphere during its flight. 

Russian Iskander Missile is a good example of Quasi ballistic missile.

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## pmukherjee

This is what it is. A short range missile. Not a guided/unguided rocket and definitely not multiple barreled or multi tube as this guy is saying.


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## mjnaushad

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

No PR94/2011-ISPR Dated: April 19, 2011
Rawalpindi - April 19, 2011: 

Pakistan today successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (NASR). The missile has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistans Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter ranges*. NASR, with a range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats.*

The test was witnessed by Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

On this occasion, the Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said that the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistans strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in that hierarchy of military operations, the NASR Weapon System now provides Pakistan with short range missile capability in addition to the already available medium and long range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.

The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.

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## Markus

TaimiKhan said:


> Its not rule of thumb that a ballistic missile has to be launched vertically and that it has to go into space. The can be launched horizontally also.
> 
> Take example of this: MGM-140 ATACMS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (a horizontally launched missile system)
> 
> And also, just for info, kindly read about ballistics, it may give you an idea what ballistic missiles are.


 
Thanks for the info.

I just checked MGM-140 ATACMS, its says its a tactical system but it was not referred as ballistic system.

Also, any ballistic missile is a system that is guided during its inertial phase but when during the later stage it succumbs to gravity.

Given the flight path of todays system, the missile will need guidance in its complete flight to reach its target. If its ballistic, then by definition, it must follow gravity during its last stages.

Then I am confused as to how it can be called as ballistic.

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## The Deterrent

pmukherjee said:


> This is what it is. A short range missile. Not a guided/unguided rocket and definitely not multiple barreled or multi tube as this guy is saying.


 
Mr Talat Masud is talking about cruise missiles....what non-sense?....dont you see the new picture with NASR clearly written over it?

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## bc040400065

@ coldfire. where did you find this list of missiles?? Wikipedia?? 

I think these eezabs are just someones own speculations but nothing real about these. Only one that i have heard of is taimur ICBM. But the other one TIPU is not in this list. so some fanboys wish list i think.


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## Windjammer

pmukherjee said:


> This is what it is. A short range missile. Not a guided/unguided rocket and definitely not multiple barreled or multi tube as this guy is saying.


 
The footage being shown is not of today's test but the test launch of Shaheen-1 missile system.

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## acetophenol

good work


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## The Deterrent

bc040400065 said:


> @ coldfire. where did you find this list of missiles?? Wikipedia??
> 
> I think these eezabs are just someones own speculations but nothing real about these. Only one that i have heard of is taimur ICBM. But the other one TIPU is not in this list. so some fanboys wish list i think.


 
I have stated something about the the Pakistani ICBM here,do check it:
Pakistan's Nuclear Delivery Systems


----------



## Moorkh

AhaseebA said:


> It is feasible for an army like ours....we all know that how much we are lagging behind in conventional weapons.....probably the first time a country is trying to counter conventional weapons with nuclear ones.....imagine Indian army capturing an area in thar desert...now our army cannot fight back and we cannot get back our area .....suppose the airforce is not in that position because of low quantity+quality and very potent air defences...Nasr will provide very fast and assured destruction.
> 
> Remember that the missiles specialized for nuclear use are made keeping in view that there might be a defeat situation so we could use them as a last resort...


 
Does not sound like the brightest of ideas. India has already declared that any nuclear weapon usage against its forces will have a nuclear retaliation. If a nuclear shooting war is going to start the moment you use a nuke, why go for small ones, why not go for a knock out against India.


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## JonAsad

Markus said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I just checked MGM-140 ATACMS, its says its a tactical system but it was not referred as ballistic system.
> 
> Also, any ballistic missile is a system that is guided during its inertial phase but when during the later stage it succumbs to gravity.
> 
> Given the flight path of todays system, the missile will need guidance in its complete flight to reach its target. If its ballistic, then by definition, it must follow gravity during its last stages.
> 
> Then I am confused as to how it can be called as ballistic.


 
Do the easy thing- open the link and press ctrl+F, type ballistic in search field- press enter- then click the highlighted part (Tactical ballistic missiles of the United States)- you'll know which analogy the missile comes under- 

I did it like that -

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## The Deterrent

Moorkh said:


> Does not sound like the brightest of ideas. India has already declared that any nuclear weapon usage against its forces will have a nuclear retaliation. If a nuclear shooting war is going to start the moment you use a nuke, why go for small ones, why not go for a knock out against India.


 
Because logically,I think India should nuke Pak Army and the military installations in response...so i dont think India would instead nuke the general population...and of course each and every idea is not bright,e.g.
check out this 
Davy Crockett (nuclear device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and tell me how bright is this...


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## Moorkh

graphican said:


> A more rational situation would be when both countries have launched nuclear missiles on each other already and now its legal to use nuclear weapons. In that case whats harm to use few nukes against Indian strongholds to neutralize them?
> 
> I wanted to know is there any possibility of launching this missile outside multi-barrel rocket launcher as a single missile? If so then this could be launched by few men instead of a vehicle.


 
once the war has become nuclear, the industrial and technical base required the wars will be nuked out. there will be no further war, not because no one is left to fight but because there is nothing left to fight with.

the tanks and planes wont move cos the refineries and oil reserves were blown up by nukes. they wont shoot cos the ordnance factories and munition dumps get blown up .how do u expect either of the armies to fight on in such a situation?


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## TaimiKhan

Markus said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I just checked MGM-140 ATACMS, its says its a tactical system but it was not referred as ballistic system.
> 
> Also, any ballistic missile is a system that is guided during its inertial phase but when during the later stage it succumbs to gravity.
> 
> Given the flight path of todays system, the missile will need guidance in its complete flight to reach its target. If its ballistic, then by definition, it must follow gravity during its last stages.
> 
> Then I am confused as to how it can be called as ballistic.



Its a Tactical Ballistic Missile System, it goes up, reaches a certain height with engine power and then comes back to the surface, to its target using the Ballistics. But while coming down and going up, its not only using ballistics but also guidance from other means to reach its target. 

It would not be a ballistic missile, if its powered the whole time by an engine, but ATCAMS, NASR, Iskander, Prithvi, Abdali, Ghaznavi etc etc are all Ballistic Missiles. They use the ballistics for their flight as well as are guided through either GPS, INS, GLONASS etc etc. 

The above mentioned missiles are all Tactical Ballistic Missiles as they are not powered by their rocket engines through out their flight. 

And this NASR, Iskander and even Indian Shourya missiles are all Quasi Ballistic Missiles, that is they don't go up in the atmosphere, rather they fly within it and reach their target. And Quasi Ballistic Missiles have their own plus points. 

Hope, this time i am clear enough to convey my point. 

Artillery shells travel using ballistics, a rocket (unguided one) uses ballistics to travel to its target, and then SSM missiles (guided ones) which don't travel to their target fully on rocket engine use ballistics to travel rest of their path after reaching certain height with the help of their engine, but they get guidance from internal sources and external sources to be more accurate.

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## The Deterrent

Moorkh said:


> once the war has become nuclear, the industrial and technical base required the wars will be nuked out. there will be no further war, not because no one is left to fight but because there is nothing left to fight with.
> 
> the tanks and planes wont move cos the refineries and oil reserves were blown up by nukes. they wont shoot cos the ordnance factories and munition dumps get blown up .how do u expect either of the armies to fight on in such a situation?


 
in present scenario,I think a hypothetical,possible war wouldn't last more than 3-7 days,before the International community jumps in...


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## graphican

You guys must had attacked back in 1998 after India tested its nuclear arsenal without any provocation at all. I hope you would remember the speech of PM Atal Behari Vajpaye and others in your own parliament and see what language and behavior they exhibited.. all without any provocation!

Not to forget, the attack on Indian Parliament by Kashmiris was taken as attack by Pakistan, also the attack on Samjhota Express was seen as attack by Pakistan, the murder of Sikhs in Kashmir at the time of President Clinton visited India was also taken as attack by Pakistan, the attack of Male Gaon was taken as attack by Pakistan and the list goes on.. and all of these proved untrue. 

Even the Kargil War is different.. not to forget Kashmir border is "Line of Control" instead of Indian Border or Pakistani Border. So this argument doen't count here. for Mumbai Attacks, Pakistan from the first hour had offered India all the support and Joint Investigation to probe and punish culprits. What else could you have expected from Pakistan and what did India tried to do was "Surgical Strikes". Unfortunate isn't it. 

Indian attitude is aggressive by nature. You are talking about not attacking Pakistan, I can list 10 of incident when you wanted but our firepower stopped you.. otherwise your army was so keen to conduct Surgical Strikes within hours after the incident. How unfortunate that without probing you guys produce conclusions and developments like Hataf-9 makes sure no misadventure is done. Thats the Safty-wall to be honest.

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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> It is feasible for an army like ours....we all know that how much we are lagging behind in conventional weapons.....probably the first time a country is trying to counter conventional weapons with nuclear ones.....imagine Indian army capturing an area in thar desert...now our army cannot fight back and we cannot get back our area .....suppose the airforce is not in that position because of low quantity+quality and very potent air defences...Nasr will provide very fast and assured destruction.
> 
> Remember that the missiles specialized for nuclear use are made keeping in view that there might be a defeat situation so we could use them as a last resort...


but there will be the nuclear radiations everywhere...will come on our forces too...I will destroy our forces too...looks like suicidal attempt weapon too...


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## monitor

well after 10 page reply the end result is its a short range ballistic missile not what the thread tittle said . but how can any body think about droping nuke within 60 km


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## JonAsad

monitor said:


> well after 10 page reply the end result is its a short range ballistic missile not what the thread tittle said . but how can any body think about droping nuke within 60 km


 
From where you missed the multibarrel thingy?-


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## The Deterrent

monitor said:


> well after 10 page reply the end result is its a short range ballistic missile not what the thread tittle said . but how can any body think about droping nuke within 60 km


 
the end result is a short-range MULTI-BARREL ballistic missile....

You can drop a nuke at 4 km too....check this out...
Davy Crockett (nuclear device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
M65 Atomic Cannon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Special Atomic Demolition Munition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

low-yield W25 (nuclear warhead) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and a helpful link
Tactical nuclear weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Moorkh

AhaseebA said:


> Because logically,I think India should nuke Pak Army and the military installations in response...so i dont think India would instead nuke the general population...and of course each and every idea is not bright,e.g.
> check out this
> Davy Crockett (nuclear device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> and tell me how bright is this...


 
during cold war, both the superpowers were geared to start off with nukes. neither was going to wait till the other went nuclear. a very important reason why the cold war never went hot.

you are counting on the indian side escalating only to the point you choose. you nuke troops so india should only nuke troops. that doesnt necessarily hold. india might very well choose to nuke what it pleases once the floodgates are open.

as far as the davy crockett is concerned, even the americans realised how it was a stupid idea and phased it out without replacing it. what good is a small nuke when much bigger ones are flying around


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## Last Hope

After looking on the posts, some people are saying that MRLs cannot have ballistic missiles. _(Sorry if I missed the post, as there are 100s of posts)_
What is wrong in 'inventing' a new system, that can launch multiple missile at a time?

After looking at the picture, it seems there is a flaw in the news. That must be some other missile, certainly not a ballastic.
Still, was not something bad, and we must appriciate it  

Keep up the development, we are backing you (keeping your morale high)


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## TaimiKhan

*Guys, kindly keep the discussion to the topic and that is about the missile, better not convert it into another Pak Vs India battle ground. 

There would be no infractions, straight suspensions if anyone does not lets it go.

Talk about the missile, its scope and use.*

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## The Deterrent

Moorkh said:


> during cold war, both the superpowers were geared to start off with nukes. neither was going to wait till the other went nuclear. a very important reason why the cold war never went hot.
> 
> you are counting on the indian side escalating only to the point you choose. you nuke troops so india should only nuke troops. that doesnt necessarily hold. india might very well choose to nuke what it pleases once the floodgates are open.
> 
> as far as the davy crockett is concerned, even the americans realised how it was a stupid idea and phased it out without replacing it. what good is a small nuke when much bigger ones are flying around


 
alright add the strategic installations to the list........but the population...?
No,I dont think the Indians are that bad...


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## Moorkh

AhaseebA said:


> in present scenario,I think a hypothetical,possible war wouldn't last more than 3-7 days,before the International community jumps in...


 
so why use nukes, even tactical ones. 

once the nukes are used, the international community wont be able to do squat before both sides have nuked each other to ruin.

if nukes are kept out of the picture, the international community can come in within 3-7 days and stop both sides without the kind of amage a nuke war will bring


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## F-16_Falcon

60 km ballistic missile with nuclear warhead?   They should have make it 300 km like Russian Iskandar missile. 




Windjammer said:


> There you go guys.



It look more like small rocket or MLRS.


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## The Deterrent

TaimiKhan said:


> *Guys, kindly keep the discussion to the topic and that is about the missile, better not convert it into another Pak Vs India battle ground.
> 
> There would be no infractions, straight suspensions if anyone does not lets it go.
> 
> Talk about the missile, its scope and use.*


 
Got the point...


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## satishkumarcsc

Mifht be a sub-Kiloton warhead mounted on an MBRL missile. India and Pakistan are known to have tactical sub-kiloton nukes for a long time.


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## The Deterrent

F-16_Falcon said:


> 60 km ballistic missile with nuclear warhead?   They should have make it 300 km like Russian Iskandar missile.
> It look more like small rocket or MLRS.


For 300km the upgraded Ghaznavi is already present ...

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## Moorkh

AhaseebA said:


> alright add the strategic installations to the list........but the population...?
> No,I dont think the Indians are that bad...


 
dont underestimate the power of human stupidity. and in case of the subcontinent public anger. there is no telling what india will nuke.

even if we assume that india will escalate to nuke strategic facilities only, wont it have been easier for pakistan to start off with them straight away? without the strategic facilities, there wont be any gains from using the tactical nuke. it will be like winning the battle but losing the war


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## TaimiKhan

Last Hope said:


> After looking on the posts, some people are saying that MRLs cannot have ballistic missiles. _(Sorry if I missed the post, as there are 100s of posts)_
> What is wrong in 'inventing' a new system, that can launch multiple missile at a time?
> 
> After looking at the picture, it seems there is a flaw in the news. That must be some other missile, certainly not a ballastic.
> Still, was not something bad, and we must appriciate it
> 
> Keep up the development, we are backing you (keeping your morale high)



Yaar, read my posts. Its a Ballistic Missile, since it seems to be guided. Had it been unguided, it would have been a rocket. 

A single vehicle can hold multiple Tactical SSM, ATCAMS is a good example, where two of them can be loaded on a single vehicle. 

NASR can be and is a Multi Launched Ballistic Missile system, since a single vehicle can launch multiple missiles, its guided thus it becomes a missile and that it uses ballistics during its flight path. 


Its a missile, a ballistic missile. 


ATGM are missiles even though they have 4-8KM range. 

Any rocket, which gets guidance becomes a missile. 

And whatever missile goes to a height with engine power and then uses ballistic to cover rest of the distance becomes a ballistic missile.

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## monitor

Pakistan test fires nuclear-capable missile:

Islamabad, Tuesday, April 19, 2011: Pakistan's military on Tuesday said it had successfully test-fired a newly developed short-range ballistic missile capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

The military said in a statement that the Hatf-IX Missile with a range of 60 kilometres (40 miles) "could carry Nuclear Warheads of appropriate yields with high accuracy".

"The missile has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan's strategic weapons development programme at shorter ranges," it said, adding that "this quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats".

South Asian rivals India and Pakistan -- which have fought three wars, two of them over the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir -- have routinely carried out missile tests since both demonstrated nuclear weapons capability in 1998.

Pakistan's arsenal includes short-range, medium and long-range missiles named after Muslim conquerors.

Pakistan carried out nuclear weapons tests in May 1998, following similar tests by India.

The neighbours were on the brink of a nuclear conflict in 2002 over tensions about disputed Kashmir, but began a slow-moving peace dialogue in 2004, which resumed in March after three years of suspension following November 2008 Mumbai attacks.
AFP

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## Windjammer

Suffice to say the new system could be deployed in the same profile as say the patriot, albeit with completely different roles.

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## Shameel

I don't see what all the fuss is about. 

It's a short-range ballistic missile with two-barrels, i.e. one transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) can launch two missiles. The missile can carry a sub-kilotonne nuclear warhead for battefield use. It's "shoot and scoot" - meaning you launch and run. The warhead is not big enough to kill people in the launch area but it will destroy, let's say, an Indian Army armoured div attack concentration in Cholistan or Thar.

Nasr ruins the Indian Cold Start Doctrine as it can be used against Indian Army concentrations gearing up to attack near the border.

Could also be used from within Pakistani territory to destroy Indian air bases such as Pathankot, which comes within its range.

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## monitor

At last some official about the missile 
Pak successfully conducted first flight test of short range surface to surface missile:

Islamabad - Tuesday, April 19, 2011: Pakistan, Tuesday successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed short range surface to surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile. 

According to ISPR sources, it has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development Programme at shorter ranges. 

The Multi Tube Ballistic Missile, NASR, with a Range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy. 

This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats, the sources said. 

APP


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## The Deterrent

I think this is an exemplary system...
LORA (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## monitor

Press Release 







No PR94/2011-ISPR Dated: April 19, 2011 

Rawalpindi - April 19, 2011: 

Pakistan today successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (NASR). The missile has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter ranges. NASR, with a range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats.

The test was witnessed by Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations.

On this occasion, the Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said that the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistan&#8217;s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in that hierarchy of military operations, the NASR Weapon System now provides Pakistan with short range missile capability in addition to the already available medium and long range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.

The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success.

----------------------------------------------------


Pakistan successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (NASR) on Tuesday. (19-4-2011) - Photo ISPR

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## Shameel

Just as I thought. NASR's target is India's Cold Start Doctrine:

The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan test-fires Hatf-IX

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## The Deterrent

Shameel said:


> Just as I thought. NASR's target is India's Cold Start Doctrine:
> 
> The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan test-fires Hatf-IX


 
Thats exactly what I'm trying to say...


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## graphican

Thanks Sir, That is answer to one of my put question. 

If NASR can be launched by few men, I am sure it would become a lore more deadly than it is in the form of multi-barrel rocket launcher. You can spot a multi-barel rocket launcher Via Satellites or UAVs.. but who's going to spot 4 men with a missile and all this capable to launch a nuclear attack. Thats small but a very powerful concept indeed!

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## The Deterrent

graphican said:


> Thanks Sir, That is answer to one of my put question.
> 
> If NASR can be launched by few men, I am sure it would become a lore more deadly than it is in the form of multi-barrel rocket launcher. You can spot a multi-barel rocket launcher Via Satellites or UAVs.. but who's going to spot 4 men with a cruise missile and all this capable to launch a nuclear attack. Thats small but a very powerful concept indeed!



No,no NASR needs a vehicle,and same security protocols will be followed i think...and who tells you that it is a cruise missile???


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## JonAsad

graphican said:


> Thanks Sir, That is answer to one of my put question.
> 
> If NASR can be launched by few men, I am sure it would become a lore more deadly than it is in the form of multi-barrel rocket launcher. You can spot a multi-barel rocket launcher Via Satellites or UAVs.. but who's going to spot 4 men with a missile and all this capable to launch a nuclear attack. Thats small but a very powerful concept indeed!


 
4 men standing on the ground- cannot fire g2g missile- for g2a its ok as you can see and lock on to the target-


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## Dazzler

Hi folks, i just had a confirmation on this system but first i must thank Mr. Wind Jammer for his info. This is a guided missile and not a rocket like KRL or A-100. Pakistan does have miniature nukes operational for a long time now. Range is 60 km and can be extended further. It is the reaction of Indian Doctrine Cold Start and work began on it at NESCOM in 2003-2004. Also, let me tell you all that another project is in the testing phase at NESCOM having similar dimensions, the only difference is that, it is a SAM system. Range is more than SPADA 2000 system so can be regarded MID RANGE. We will hear good news soon INSHA ALLAH. It will be called HATF-10. This is confirmed

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## Faheka.afk



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## Bratva

faheka said:


>




Pics of NASR Hataf-9


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## Dil Pakistan

nabil_05 said:


> Hi folks, i just had a confirmation on this system but first i must thank Mr. Wind Jammer for his info. This is a guided missile and not a rocket like KRL or A-100. Pakistan does have miniature nukes operational for a long time now. Range is 60 km and can be extended further. It is the reaction of Indian Doctrine Cold Start and work began on it at NESCOM in 2003-2004. *Also, let me tell you all that another project is in the testing phase at NESCOM having similar dimensions, the only difference is that, it is a SAM system. Range is more than SPADA 2000 system so can be regarded MID RANGE. We will hear good news soon INSHA ALLAH. It will be called HATF-10. This is confirmed*


 
Sir I salute you for providing this news. Dil ko garam kar diya hey. WAH

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## The Deterrent

mafiya said:


> Pics of NASR Hataf-9


 
the middle one is not NASR....note the clouds and thickness of the launching system


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## ramu

How many barrels are we talking about ? One of the photographs shows 4 barrels ... IS that the system ?

It does not make strategic sense for Pakistan to raise a war above nuclear threshold by using missiles with less than 60 KM range for defence or to open a new front. Such systems give license to countries with no first use policy to fire at will. However, in a conventional war, this weapon can be used by the Army to deny enemies from having a field day. This system can be a potent system if the war between the arch rivals has already crossed the nuclear threshold. Irrespective of how many people are needed to operate, satellites are powerful to mark every vehicle camouflaged or not.

It is great to see Pakistan develop such a system in less than 10 years. Kudos if it is 100% home grown technology.
congrats

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## The Deterrent

It is now *confirmed* that there are *FOUR* tubes in the Multi-tube NASR...

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## ajpirzada

Well I guess pak will be using nukes in the battleground only after india enters and occupies our territory... Meanin we will be bombing our own land. Otherwise firing nukes across border will open the floodgates from both sides as someone ritly pointed out


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## Dazzler

Yes four tubes, can be launched in a rapid sequence too although not as quick as MRLS. Guidance is same as used in other ballistic missiles i.e. INS primary and GPS as option as GPS is not so secure in our case. This system will prove very effective against rapid enemy force concentration to such an extent that their strike corps will have to devise a modified or different strategy. Its too early to say what are the exact dimensions of HATF 9 but it is a promising system indeed.

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## My-Analogous

Markus said:


> India has a stated policy that even if Indian soldiers are nuked on foreign soil it will be taken as a nuclear attack on India.


 
Just one question if someone decide to nuke then will he make sure that he will nuke in his country and not the enemy one? and will he give time to counter attack of other nation?

Your statement to me look like childish one because if someone use nuke he will used it first to the enemy so that all thread will defuse and then he we lookinto domestic problem


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## Areesh

nabil_05 said:


> Hi folks, i just had a confirmation on this system but first i must thank Mr. Wind Jammer for his info. This is a guided missile and not a rocket like KRL or A-100. Pakistan does have miniature nukes operational for a long time now. Range is 60 km and can be extended further. It is the reaction of Indian Doctrine Cold Start and work began on it at NESCOM in 2003-2004. *Also, let me tell you all that another project is in the testing phase at NESCOM having similar dimensions, the only difference is that, it is a SAM system. Range is more than SPADA 2000 system so can be regarded MID RANGE. We will hear good news soon INSHA ALLAH. It will be called HATF-10. This is confirmed*


 
Wah dil khush kar dia Nabil bhai.

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## My-Analogous

mautkimaut said:


> why would India be really worried about a 60 km missile, it can be brought down by ABM as well as air defence units.


 
And will you please tell me how much time you required for mach minimum mach 1 speed of 60 km range missile to intercept?


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## The Deterrent

ghazaliy2k said:


> Just one question if someone decide to nuke then will he make sure that he will nuke in his country and not the enemy one? and will he give time to counter attack of other nation?
> 
> Your statement to me look like childish one because if someone use nuke he will used it first to the enemy so that all thread will defuse and then he we lookinto domestic problem


 

Hes talking about Invading Indian Army present within the borders of Pakistan...it will have collateral damage,of course...but in an area like Thar,it would be acceptable...


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## Skull and Bones

ghazaliy2k said:


> And will you please tell me how much time you required for mach minimum mach 1 speed of 60 km range missile to intercept?


 
Quick reaction, short range ABMs will be fit for for this job. That's why India went for Arrow.


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## Dazzler

Dil Pakistan said:


> Sir I salute you for providing this news. Dil ko garam kar diya hey. WAH


 
Salute to those who work day in and day out to ensure the survival of Pakistan

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## Areesh

nabil_05 said:


> Salute to those who work day in and day out to ensure the survival of Pakistan


 
Exactly... NESCOM is a pride of Pakistan.

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## dilpakistani

Any video of it ?


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## Riz



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## The Deterrent

dilpakistani said:


> Any video of it ?


 
*Heres the best video till now...*









The video shows that it is highly maneuverable.....pause and note the sad faces of the officials and Qidwai (at 00:13)

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## Rafi

Brilliant news, and can also confirm Nabil's news also.

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## nwmalik

most importantly IT IS A DETERENT

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## graphican

@MODS, 

Please rename the title of this thread. Its now confirmed that its a Multibarrel Missile System and not a "multibarrel rocket launcher"


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## Manticore

i think i saw 2 tubes launcher in the video, not 4.


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## The Deterrent

ANTIBODY said:


> i think i saw 2 tubes launcher in the video, not 4.


 
I'm also asking myself the same question...


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## BelligerentPacifist

Two tubes only - the fins don't fold. In these many tubes per launcher a B611-ski would've been fittable to the TEL and have offered a much superior capability.


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## foxhound

I think the new missile system follows up from previous systems such as the lance tactical nuclear missile - for strategic tactical battlefield situations. the missile would erode any further imbalance in its strategic deterrence.















The MGM-52 Lance is a battlefield short-range, road mobile, liquid propellant ballistic missile. It is a tactical system developed to replace the Sergeant tactical missile. It was designed to be a small, inexpensive missile that could be deployed in large numbers and fired repeatedly. It is carried in a tracked M752 Transporter-Erector-Launcher (TEL) vehicle and is often accompanied by reload vehicles, which carry two additional Lance missiles. The primary contractor was Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.



The Lance missile system is a tactical asset designed for use against the Soviet Union. It was developed to follow US doctrine of maintaining low-yield nuclear weapons in case of nuclear escalation in Europe. Its short-range prevents it from engaging strategic targets, but its nuclear warhead is of a sufficient size to be able to threaten population centers and hardened targets. A neutron bomb warhead was developed for use against military units, particularly armored troops. High explosive (HE) warheads were developed to allow for non-nuclear deployment, though only the submunition warheads would be feasible against specific military units. The unitary HE warhead could only effectively be used against large targets such as manufacturing complexes, airports, etc. Far more nuclear warheads were developed for the Lance than conventional, and the Lance would probably have been used to attack concentrated troops, command facilities and military bases with its fairly powerful nuclear warhead. The mobility of the Lance TEL vehicle enables it to follow movements in the front and avoid attack.

ref:MissileThreat :: Lance

*As a DETERRENCE SYSTEM it is a good system and would keep the enemy at bay, making them think more than twice if they planned to initiate hostilities leading to an all out war. I PRAY THESE SYSTEMS ARE JUST KEPT AS A DETTERENCE AND NEVER FIRED AS THIS WILL RESULT IN A GLOBAL CATASTROPHE AND THE DESTRUCTION OF SO MANY INNOCENT LIVES (INCLUDING THE DEVASTATION OF ITS LANDS FOR MANY DECADES). The system is probably based on NATO's strategy with the former Warsaw pact nations during the cold war. *I have given 2 peoples view on their doctrine:



View 1
	The cold-war NATO strategy behind 'tactical' warheads in the European theatre was to ensure that any advance by the Warsaw Pact armies on the West could be halted in its tracks regardless of any numerical superiority in conventional forces.* Tactical nuclear detonations (particularly of neutron warheads) on their line of advancement would be devastating within a limited area and prevent further progress for several days, during which time peace negotiations would hopefully prevent escalation to strategic nuclear exchange. *The gambit was controversial because, contrary to the rhetoric of nuclear deterrance, it assumed a first-strike policy on NATO's part. This was premised on the expectation that, having demonstrated its willingness to use nuclear weapons (even on its own territory), the Soviet union would realise that strategic nuclear retaliation would precipitate MAD (mutually assured destruction). 
Interestingly, a policy mooted by Labour in the 1970s-80s recognised the absolute immorality of nuclear holocaust but accepted that the retention of nuclear weapons as a deterrent was morally justifiable so long as the weapons were never actually used- after all if the circumstances for their deployment were actualised, by definition, the nukes' deterrent potential must have failed. Ironically, such a stance could never have been made public without removing the deterrent value...
View 2
	I don't think there is any more dangerous fantasy than the term "tactical nuclear weapon." There is no reason to think any exchange of nuclear weapons will not escalate very quickly. For *decades its been regarded that once you cross the nuclear threshold there is no guarantee your adversary will respond proportionally and not massively. Almost any critical explosion can be regarded as a weapon of mass destruction - even the lower range of the B61, 1.5KT is enough to destroy a small town - it's higher range, 170KT could destroy the centre of the largest city.*People advocating tactical nuclear weapons have no idea what they're talking about. They make crossing the nuclear threshold more likely as they are perceived to be less massive than strategic nuclear weapons. Tactical nuclear weapons have never kept the peace - if there is any merit or truth to deterrence it is the fear of strategic exchange that has kept the use of nuclear weapons in check. Tactical weapons destabilise deterrence as they are imagined to be used against larger conventional forces (this was NATO planning in the last decades of the Cold War - a larger invasion from the East was meant to be checked by tactical nuclear weapons thus NATO would use nuclear weapons first). Needless to say, nuclear weapons (of any kind) are useless against anything other than Nation states.

This new missile is probably based on the detterence that NATO has, when facing a numerical larger foe.

ref:Lance: 50missileclubra.com


*Nuclear Deterrence *

Nuclear deterrence aims to prevent unwanted action by an opponent by convincing them that the resultant costs would exceed any gains. In short, the costs would involve massive destruction 
from a nuclear strike. 

Nuclear deterrence involves several paradoxes. For example, the threat of use of nuclear weapons is supposed to prevent war, including the use of nuclear weapons. But to be credible, 

the deterring state must demonstrate a readiness to use nuclear weapons, which increases the probability of such use, particularly over a long period of time. Thus, nuclear deterrence is an inherently unstable policy. 

Nuclear deterrence has evolved from the simple threat of massive retaliation to a range of forms. It includes: counter-force; the threat of nuclear retaliation against military targets, counter-value; the threat of nuclear retaliation against the opposing state in general, flexible response; the deployment of sub-strategic or tactical weapons for battlefield use or for use as an interim step prior to massive retaliation; first-strike; the use of nuclear weapons in response to a conventional attack or to pre-emptively destroy the weapons of an opponent, extended deterrence; the extension of nuclear deterrence to cover the territories of non-nuclear allies, existential deterrence; the ability to develop nuclear weapons without actual deployment. 

See: The Naked Nuclear Emperor: Debunking Nuclear Deterrence, Commander Robert Green, Royal Navy (ret), Disarmament and Security Centre, Christchurch, 2000. Welcome to Disarmament & Security Centre 


http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/issues/policies/nuclear-doctrine.htm

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## Najam Khan

Yayyy Pakistan rocks!!!
Thats a sound response to India's Cold Start Doctrine!

This missile gives Pakistan the capability to counter the incoming Indian forces. It may choose to use the tactical nuke warhead on its own soil or may destroy the supply lines and break the back of enemy.
Cool strategy!
Congratulations to all Pakistanis and salute to our scientists, engineers and policy-makers

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## blain2

Markus said:


> Come on, its just 60 kms range.
> 
> Btw, have you seen the Russian Smerch in action ?


 
A-100 that Pakistan has is in the same category. The purpose of Nasr is different. Its a tactical battlefield BM with a limited yield to stop ingressing armour etc. without causing an irreparable damage to the local infrastructure. The idea is to take the "start" out of the "cold start" and keep it cold. ;-)

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## marcos98

> This still image from a Pakistan military handout video shows a Hatf IX (NASR) missile being fired during a test at an undisclosed location in Pakistan April 19, 2011. Pakistan on Tuesday test fired a newly developed short range surface to surface ballistic missile capable of delivering nuclear warheads, the military said.






Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## TOPGUN

Awsome news keep it up Pak army .


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## rajusri

congrats for successful test.


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## farhan_9909

will it be tested again?

or after this successfull test they will produce it in mass number and will be deployed?


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## Bratva

blain2 said:


> A-100 that Pakistan has is in the same category. The purpose of Nasr is different. Its a tactical battlefield BM with a limited yield to stop ingressing armour etc. without causing an irreparable damage to the local infrastructure. The idea is to take the "start" out of the "cold start" and keep it cold. ;-)


 
Than what is the use of Hatf-1 and Abdali short range ballistic missiles?


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## blain2

AhaseebA said:


> It is now *confirmed* that there are *FOUR* tubes in the Multi-tube NASR...


 
It matters little whether its 2 or 4 tube. The idea is not to saturate the target and thus needing very many tubes becomes redundant. For area saturation, we have the 122mm and 300mm systems.


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## farhan_9909

Windjammer said:


> Suffice to say the new system could be deployed in the same profile as say the patriot, albeit with completely different roles.


 
is it the same NASR?
in the video their are two tubes and in this pic 4?


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## Safriz

this is the new trend in nuclear warfar. Instead of exploding a big megton size nuke,the ne idea is to deploy mini nukes of 10 or less kiotons. Those are safe from 60km,and can do lot more damage than one big nuke whos most part of energy is lost in digging crater and throwing up debri.

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## IndianArmy

safriz said:


> this is the new trend in nuclear warfar. Instead of exploding a big megton size nuke,the ne idea is to deploy mini nukes of 10 or less kiotons. Those are safe from 60km,and can do lot more damage than one big nuke whos most part of energy is lost in digging crater and throwing up debri.


 
This is an Old trend, there are many Nuke tipped rocket artilleries available...But such developments are always a symbol of conventional deterrence


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## Bratva

What will happen to our Previous Short range Ballistic Missiles? Abdali, Ghaznavi, Hatf-1? Weren't they suffice that we have to develop another SRBM?


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## Safriz

mafiya said:


> What will happen to our Previous Short range Ballistic Missiles? Abdali, Ghaznavi, Hatf-1? Weren't they suffice that we have to develop another SRBM?


 Arent those 100 plus km in range? And a bit bulky? Plus no multiaunch option?

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## blain2

mafiya said:


> Than what is the use of Hatf-1 and Abdali short range ballistic missiles?


 
Its the yield as well as the logistical challenges of moving the above around in a highly fluid battlefield. For Shoot and scoot purposes, this system is better.

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## BelligerentPacifist

farhan_9909 said:


> is it the same NASR?
> in the video their are two tubes and in this pic 4?


 
A PAC-2 SAM. The post even says so!


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## air marshal



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## Dazzler

I stand corrected, its 2 tubes not four.


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## ChineseTiger1986

The range needs to be increasing to more than 400km in the future.


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## Sinnerman108

blain2 said:


> Its the yield as well as the logistical challenges of moving the above around in a highly fluid battlefield. For Shoot and scoot purposes, this system is better.


 
This is perfectly correct.

The long range missile are very big, slow moving and take a lot of time for prep and loading.

this missile will help Pakistan in two ways:

1. We can have a lot more nuclear deterrence "on the prowl" around the battlefield.
2. It Signals that Pakistan's doctrine of low yield weapons finally has had finishing touches.

The long range missile will stay for deep penetrative strike.
The short range low yield missiles will help to cope up the numerical advantage of the enemy, as well as allow minimum collateral damage.

In a subcontinent/ Middle east theater of operations where terrain is more or less flat, and spotted with continuous population this will be an excellent weapon and great strategy.

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## Sinnerman108

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The range needs to be increasing to more than 400km in the future.


 
We have that range segment filled in already albeit with a different missile system and technology.

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## tallboy123

so it a 2 tube ,2 missiles on a Truck...with a 60Km range...which can carry nuclear war head right????

It is not a ballistic missile,coz it doesn't leave the atmosphere....


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## Sinnerman108

tallboy123 said:


> so it a 2 tube ,2 missiles on a Truck...with a 60Km range...which can carry nuclear war head right????


 
If you think Demo will be the same as production, then yes you are right.

Brace your self.


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## Sinnerman108

tallboy123 said:


> so it a 2 tube ,2 missiles on a Truck...with a 60Km range...which can carry nuclear war head right????


 
If you think Demo will be the same as production, then yes you are right.

Brace your self.


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## foxhound

ref:After Pak missile test, India flexes muscle - The Times of India

*After Pak missile test, India flexes muscle* 
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Apr 19, 2011, 11.48pm IST

Tags:Vijayee Bhava|Pak Missile test|Hatf IXNEW DELHI: Diplomatic re-engagement may have begun afresh but both sides are keeping their powder dry. The 1.13-million strong Indian Army is honing its war-fighting machinery with a major combat exercise, codenamed "Vijayee Bhava'' (Be Victorious), in the Thar desert to practice "high tempo'' operations to cut across the border. 
*Squeamish for long with India's "pro-active conventional war strategy'', or what is colloquially dubbed the "cold start'' doctrine, Pakistan in turn test-fired a new nuclear-capable ballistic missile Hatf-IX on Tuesday. *
*Given that Hatf-IX has a strike range of only 60 km, it is clearly intended for brandishing as a "battlefield nuclear weapon'' to deter Indian armoured forces from launching rapid thrusts into its territory. *
"Pakistan already has the long and medium range Shaheen and Ghauri series of missiles, acquired with help of China and North Korea, to act as the delivery mechanism for strategic nuclear weapons,'' said a senior Indian official. 

*"So, with this new missile, Islamabad seems to be looking at tactical nuclear deterrence against advancing enemy formations. But it is being foolhardy if it thinks nuclear weapons are war-fighting weapons,'' he added. *
India, of course, has its own nuclear and missile plans. *It may be steadfast about adhering to a "no first-use'' of nuclear weapons but has made it amply clear that a nuclear retaliation to a first strike will be "massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage''. *
The "Vijayee Bhava'' exercise, of course, is more conventional in nature, even though the combat manoeuvres may be simulated under "a NBC (nuclear, chemical, biological) overhang''. 

*The exercise, which will enter its peak phase in early-May, is being primarily conducted by the armoured corps-intensive 2 Corps, considered to be the most crucial of Army's three principal "strike'' formations tasked with virtually cutting Pakistan into two during a full-fledged war, said sources. *
Incidentally, the 2 Corps based in Ambala is aptly called the `Kharga Corps', taking its name and formation sign from the deadly scythe wielded by Goddess Kali to vanquish enemies. 

"In 2009, the 2 Corps had conducted the `Hind Shakti' exercise to fine-tune the pro-active strategy, which is all about mobilizing fast and hitting hard at several border points to catch the enemy unawares and gain momentum,'' said a source. 

"The `Vijayee Bhava' exercise, which will also include elements from other Western Army Command (WAC) formations like the Jalandhar-based 11 Corps, will further validate operational concepts,'' he added. 

*With hundreds of tanks, artillery guns and over 30,000 soldiers, the exercise geared for "network-centric operations'' will see the extensive use of satellite imagery, helicopter-borne surveillance systems, spy drones and a wide array of land-based radars to "achieve battlefield transparency''. *
As reported by TOI earlier, after Operation Parakram in 2002 took almost a month to reach D-Day readiness, India has reorganized Army formations all along the western front to enable a more swift and powerful offensive punch. 

It was under this overall plan that the South-Western Command (SWAC) was created at Jaipur in 2005 as the Army's sixth operational command. With the Mathura-based 1 `Strike' Corps and Bhatinda-based 10 `Pivot' Corps under it, SWAC is responsible for offensive operations on the western front in conjunction with the Western Army Command (Chandimandir), which controls the 2 `Strike' Corps. 

The Northern and Southern Army Commands, with the latter having the Bhopal-based 21 `Strike' Corps, at Udhampur and Pune respectively, will of course also play a crucial part in the event of a war but it will be SWAC and WAC which will assume the pivotal roles. 

Moreover, both the western and southwestern commands of IAF have also stepped up coordination with the different Army commands in the western theatre to synergize efforts to build "an integrated and organic'' air-land war-fighting machinery.


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## foxhound



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## foxhound

ref:India&#8217;s Military

an interesting article...

*India&#8217;s Military&#8217;s Cold Start Doctrine And Impact On Deterrence Stability In South Asia &#8211; Analysis*
Written by: Masood-Ur-Rehman Khattak

*April 17, 2011*

Deterrence in South Asia is delicate because of rapid militarization and operationalisation of Indian Military&#8217;s Cold Start Doctrine (CSD). CSD has the potential not only to operationalise Indian military&#8217;s aggressive doctrine on the basis of pre-emption but can also trigger a nuclear conflict. *Main purpose of Cold Start is to give a &#8220;punishing&#8221; reply to Pakistan in case of any alleged terrorist attack on Indian soil with totally different orientation of the Indian armed forces from defensive to offensive.*

Under CSD the Indian army would carry out swift, quick and offensive joint operations against the Pakistan military. Main objective of such operations is to create an *element of surprise and give no response time to thePakistan military.* CSD would require reformation of the army&#8217;s offensive power into eight smaller division-sized Integrated Battle Groups (IBGs) that would have mechanized infantry, artillery and armour. (Indian army&#8217;s division size is around 23,000 troops). These IBGs would be self-contained and highly-mobile, with Russian-origin T-90 MBT and upgraded T-72 M1 tanks at their core, adequately backed by air cover and artillery fire assaults, for rapid thrusts into Pakistan within 72-96 hours. Possible deployment of these IBGs would be in Punjab and Rajastan sector close to the border with Pakistan.

India






In 2005 the Vajra Shakti Exercise, brought flexibility in its Holding corps or defensive corps. These holding corps were designated as Pivot corps. Pivot corps can initiate offensive if required in the battlefield. It would have offensive punch in it and could be used as mixed corps. According to the then Chief of Army Staff, Gen J J Singh, *&#8216;&#8216;They (Pivot Corps) have assigned roles, which are offensive as well as defensive and the doctrine does not spell them out in detail. The decision making has been left to theatre commanders, depending upon their assessment and evaluation of the situation. These pivot corps has an infantry division, armoured regiments and an independent mechanized brigade. Such a reformation in the Indian army shows its intentions to operationalise Cold Start Doctrine against Pakistan.*

*To operationalise this concept (CSD) the Indian military has carried out almost 10 major exercises close to the border with Pakistan. Main purpose of these exercises was to overcome the deficiencies in the Indian military and develop synergy and integration among the armed forces to carry out integrated operations against Pakistan.* In these exercises the Indian Army introduced latest weapons and equipment, including Long Range Reconnaissance and Observation System-(LORROS), this system would enhance her surveillance, observation and targeting capabilities. In 2005 Indian military practiced Force Multiplication Command Post- (FMCP) to integrate real-time flow of information as a principal tool for decision making and NCW capabilities in the Indian Army.

The Indian Army has also worked hard to improve it capabilities to supply logistics in the dark formations without lights. *In last six years the Indian military has practiced its capabilities to carry out Swift and Quick operations without any time barrier.*
In 2007 the Indian military introduced its capabilities to fight a war in the Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) environment in the Ashwamedh exercise. This demonstrates that India is ready to wage a limited war under the nuclear umbrella. From 2004 to 2010 the Indian military practiced offensive operations with its special forces; it has tested its capabilities to carry out heli-borne operations behind the enemy lines. Such capabilities are essential as far as surgical strikes are concerned. In 2009 the Indian army carried out an exercise called Hind Shakti, on that occasion Indian army&#8217;s former Chief General Deepak Kapoor claimed that, &#8220;this exercise is another step in army&#8217;s continued venture to fine tune its Cold Start Doctrine&#8221; which shows Indian military&#8217;s continued efforts to operationalise this doctrine against Pakistan.

*The years 2009 and 2010 were very important, as far as operationalisation of the CSD is concerned. In these years Indian military introduced and practiced, Intensive Electronic and Information Warfare capabilities, Satellite imagery, Helicopter borne operations and, Surveillance systems. Another important induction in the Indian military&#8217;s weapon and equipment were Battlefield Surveillance Radars (BFSRs) and Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs). All these inductions are serious threat to the national security of Pakistan.*

In addition to that the Indian Air Force practiced its precision strike capabilities during day and night operations and also carried out a massive fire power blitzkrieg, they have also practiced their joint operations with the army and mechanised forces. Such synergy and integration is necessary for the quick and swift operations. Despite all these elements India is working to overcome shortages in the Indian military machine. *To fill this gap India will spend around US $ 200 billion on defence acquisitions over the next 12 years. It has plans to buy 278 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters by 2015 from Russia and 1000 T-90 Tanks by 2020. The Indian Defence budget for 2011-12 has crossed the 34 billion $ mark. India has become the world&#8217;s biggest arms importer according SIPRI think tank 2011.* All these trends are destabilising factors and would provoke arms race in the region.

On the nuclear side, India would be able to secure huge reserves of stockpiles under the Indo-US deal. Currently India possesses 500 kg plutonium and 11.5 metric tons of reactor grade plutonium in spent fuel. *According to some estimates India would be able to increase its nuclear arsenal from 100 warheads currently to 300-400 warheads in the next five years, putting strategic stability of south Asia in disarray.*
Indian Cold Start Doctrine and technological advancement in the conventional and nuclear field will bring qualitative and quantitative transformation in the Indian Military and impinge upon Pakistan&#8217;s national security interests. So keeping in view the strategic realities of South Asia it is advisable for Pakistan to take concrete measures to safeguard the National Security interests of Pakistan. Moreover it is imperative for the international community including US-EU-OIC-and SCO members to come forward and resolve the outstanding issues between India and Pakistan, only then we can establish long term peace and stability in the region.

Note: Excerpts are taken from the research paper Masood Ur Rehman Khattak, &#8220;Indian Military&#8217;s Cold Start Doctrine: Capabilities, Limitations and Possible Response from Pakistan&#8221; SASSI Research Paper 42, September 2010.


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## Dazzler

Foxhound, i understand your frustration. Now stick to topic please.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

and may i kindly add that boldfacing, underlining, and adding pretty colours to your posts wont make them anymore heard or anymore valid

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## Safriz

How does a routine military exercise relate to missile test?
Since the thread has gone off track i may add an off topic comment, .
About drone attacks. If pakkstan cannot detect and destroy drones can the current missi.rs be modifird to attack amd destroy tje satelites controlling drones? Well pakistan is good at missiles. Plus the satellites used to control the drones are presumably low orbit which will be within range of current rocket motors built by pakistan. Just an idea .


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## ANG

Hi, this article elegantly captures the key points of this new missile system. 

Pakistan Military Review: Hatf IX NASR Multi Tube Ballistic Missile System

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## Manticore

*Pakistani Quasi ballistic missiles and comparison with their contemporaries*



A *quasi ballistic missile (also called a semi ballistic missile)* is a category of missile that has a low trajectory and/or is largely ballistic but can perform maneuvers in flight or make unexpected changes in direction and range.[citation needed]

At a lower trajectory than a ballistic missile, a quasi ballistic missile can maintain higher speed, thus allowing its target less time to react to the attack, at the cost of reduced range.




> A *tactical ballistic missile* is a ballistic missile designed for short-range battlefield use. Typically range is less than 300 kilometres
> 
> * rockets, missiles, propellants,projectiles *
> thoughts---
> By root definition, rockets are missiles, but not all missiles are rockets.
> Once thrown, there is no further correction for the trajectory of that rocket
> 
> A missile is a guided weapon having the ability to control its trajectory. It may or may not be propelled by a rocket.
> Many (but not all) guided missiles use rockets as their principal source of propulsion eg sidewinder
> 
> 
> 
> The term "rocket" has been used ever since the Chinese first built them with black powder 500 years (?) ago even though they relied on the oxygen in the air to burn. In modern day dialogues, the use of the word "rocket" implies that a liquid fueled engine has it's own oxidizer on board, typically LOX. But not always.
> 
> Solid fueled boosters are said to use a propellent that contains it's own oxidizer so the inconsistency spreads the confusion. They too are rockets but we call them "boosters". Why? I haven't a clue!
> 
> Cannon shells are referred to as "projectiles" or "shells" when over a certain diameter and bullets when smaller.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/99968-medium-range-ballistic-missiles.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/99878-standoff-missiles.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/103666-guided-missiles-working.html




*
Hatf IX (NASR)* - pakistan

Operationalrange range of 60 +km, carries tactical plotonium based nuclear warheads of appropriate yield 

Guidancesystem INS , GPS and electro optical guidance seeker for terminal giudance -high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes. 

Platform--SINGLE TEL--2 box tubes launcher/ vehicle

Manouverability-- control surfaces behind the nose and at the tail

Propellant [as in most missiles , read the above qoute before spamming]- solid state rocket



















my original post link..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles.html

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Mashallah.
Zindabad Pakistan.

It is 60 mile range obviously for a reason, so no need to LOL.
It now has is own value....................and it is here!
Some haters are going crazy over at yahoo news and at ET website.
I guess haters gonna hate!

PS did anyone know this was coming? Who else has this type of shurli?

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## Bossman

Cold Start was non-starter from day 1 and NASR is the last nail in what was left of Cold Sart. Cold Start was nothing but 70 year old Blitzkrieg strategy but in the times of nukes and missiles. It never made any sense. The message is clear from Pakistan that any conventional thrust by India will cross the nuclear threshold. If they want to play Chicken with that they are welcome.

Foxhound and all the other Indians on this forum can post all their wet dreams about Cold Start but thier own Generals know its not worth the paper its written on. Infact the posts by Foxhound above is a clear sign of frustration by Indians. They spend Billions of dollars importing Russians tanks to create their strike Corps and one missile test by Pakistan of battlefield nuke spoils the party. Pathetic!

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## Manticore

Video Gallery - The News International
Pak tests surface-to-surface missile
Updated 0:9 PST, April 20, 2011


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## Bhim

The Iron Dome will come in handy for just these kind of missiles..


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## Manticore

http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Nwfaq/Nfaq4-2.html#Nfaq4.2.3

"The absolute minimum possible mass for a bomb is determined by the smallest critical mass that will produce a significant yield. Since the critical mass for alpha-phase plutonium is 10.5 kg, and an additional 20-25% of mass is needed to make a significant explosion, this implies 13 kg or so."

"The smallest nuclear weapons actually deployed have had yields around 10 tons (like the W54), and have been intended for short range tactical or nuclear demolition use (e.g. blowing up roads and bridges)."

Nuclear Weapons Frequently Asked Questions

Engineering and Design of Nuclear Weapons

Low Yield Weapons :
4.2 Fission Weapon Designs


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## Thorough Pro

Bhim said:


> The Iron Dome will come in handy for just these kind of missiles..


 
Don't Iron Domb work against anti tank missiles?


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## Pak_Sher

Alhamdollilah for a successful test. Pakistan needs to add a Rapd reaction force that can destroy maving formations and large army columns.

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## Pak_Sher

Bhim said:


> The Iron Dome will come in handy for just these kind of missiles..



Not if the Iron Dome is destroyed in pre-emptive strikes by the PAF.


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## Birruna

What is the probable blast radius? Will it be big enough to count as a first nuclear strike?

I don't see the new missile having additional deterrent value.


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## Safriz

^^ you are missing the point.

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## Tehmasib



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## Tehmasib

Pakistan on Tuesday successfully test-fired a newly-developed short-range surface-to-surface nuclear-capable missile, according to an official announcement by the Pakistan Army. The multi-tube ballistic missile, Hatf-IX (Nasr), is a 60-km range missile that has been developed to add deterrence value at shorter ranges to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development Programme. The missile has been developed with shoot-and-scoot capability. The test was conducted from an unidentified location. 
&#8220;The Nasr ballistic missile carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy and shoot-and-scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats,&#8221; said the official announcement.
Director General Strategic Plans Division (SPD), Lieutenant General (retd) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman Nescom, Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organisations were present at the undisclosed site of the test.
Strategic planners term the test a &#8216;new and very significant development&#8217; since the missile falls in the category of tactical nuclear weapons. &#8220;This is a low-yield battlefield deterrent, capable of deterring and inflicting punishment on mechanised forces like armed brigades and divisions,&#8221; said an expert in the field of missile technology. &#8220;This takes care of the Indian Army&#8217;s obsession with finding space for limited war under the nuclear umbrella.&#8221; 
Addressing the gathering at the undisclosed location, DG SPD Kidwai said the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistan&#8217;s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in the hierarchy of military operations, the Nasr Weapon System now provided Pakistan with short-range missile capability in addition to the already available medium- and long-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.
The president and prime minister have congratulated the scientists and engineers for their outstanding success and warmly appreciated the successful test.


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## Burger Boy

So does this mean that the missiles for the A-100 MLRS are built in Pakistan?


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## Riz

irom dom system is only capable agaist unguides rocket. Nasr missile has the ability to changes its path during flight quickly, so no way iron dome can works against Nasr

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## MJaa

ANG said:


> Hi, this article elegantly captures the key points of this new missile system.
> 
> Pakistan Military Review: Hatf IX NASR Multi Tube Ballistic Missile System


 Thanks for the link ANG

Indeed a very detailed article about the Hatf IX NASR Missile


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## MJaa

Thorough Pro said:


> Don't Iron Domb work against anti tank missiles?


 
Iron Dome is designed to intercept short-range crude rockets made by the Hamas in homes and artillery shells. It stands no chance against high speed, highly maneuverable missiles with terminal guidance system like Hatf IX NASR Missile

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## Crypto

tallboy123 said:


> so it a 2 tube ,2 missiles on a Truck...with a 60Km range...which can carry nuclear war head right????
> 
> It is not a ballistic missile,coz it doesn't leave the atmosphere....





I suggest you re-read the whole thread and get your answers.

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## mautkimaut

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I'm curious. Is everything Indian these days?


 
no it is an Israeli system but at the recent defexpo, the israeli representatives told that a few Indian Generals were interested in the buying the system.

Now this development by Pakistan ensures that the decision would be taken swiftly and all the units would be provided by a defensive cover


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## MZUBAIR

AhaseebA said:


> and BTW ,Nasr is an indigenous system,and it does not relate to A-100,KRL-122 etc...they are rockets,and this is a proper ballistic missle...
> Its bigger than a MBRL rocket...and most probably it will replace Hatf-1


 
It could be replacement of Hatf -I, depending on PA war strategy

*Hatf -1*




Battle-field Range Ballistic Missile

*Nasar (Hatf-IX )*





Battle-field Range Ballistic Missile
___________________



*Hatf -1*
Range:- 70 -100 KM, Wahead 500KG Nuclear and Conventional
*Nasar (Hatf-IX )*
Range:- 60 KM
___________________




*Hatf -1*
Single Target
*Nasar (Hatf-IX )*
Multi-Terget (*High accuracy, Quick response, shoot-and-scoot capability*)
___________________


*Hatf -1*
Transporter erector launcher (TEL)
*Nasar (Hatf-IX )*

___________________


*Hatf -1*
Role:- "used like an artillery system, with 5-6 missiles fired simultaneously at the target area. Being a ballistic missile the Hatf-IB would reach its target much quicker than an ordinary artillery shell giving the target little warning to take evasive action."
*Nasar (Hatf-IX )*
Role:- This takes care of the Indian Armys obsession with finding space for limited war under the nuclear umbrella. 



___________________


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## TaimiKhan

nabil_05 said:


> Hi folks, i just had a confirmation on this system but first i must thank Mr. Wind Jammer for his info. This is a guided missile and not a rocket like KRL or A-100. Pakistan does have miniature nukes operational for a long time now. Range is 60 km and can be extended further. It is the reaction of Indian Doctrine Cold Start and work began on it at NESCOM in 2003-2004. Also, let me tell you all that another project is in the testing phase at NESCOM having similar dimensions, the only difference is that, it is a SAM system. Range is more than SPADA 2000 system so can be regarded MID RANGE. We will hear good news soon INSHA ALLAH. It will be called HATF-10. This is confirmed


 
The SAM has been in development since a long time thanks to Mushy uncle for starting this one, got suffered at the hands of the current govt due to budget restraints otherwise we would have been by now seeing our own SAM system in testing or may be even operational stage. 

We are getting help or already may have gotten it from a friendly country, plus some tech would be used or is being modified from another project which we got from another country for the seeker. 

Thanks for the confirmation Nabil. 


And yeah, i am not sure at this time, but this SAM may be having limited ABM capability.

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## MZUBAIR

Bhim said:


> The Iron Dome will come in handy for just these kind of missiles..


 
Iron Dome is designd to defensive countermeasure to the* rocket threat *not Nuclear Ballestic Missiles,






*Nasar Ballisitic missile has more speed then rocket*....*it may have nuke, its flight can also be at low altitiude.
*

Besides that Nasar is guided and impossible to intercept using Iron Dome

Iron Dome would be useless..

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## MZUBAIR

mautkimaut said:


> no it is an Israeli system but at the recent defexpo, the israeli representatives told that a few Indian Generals were interested in the buying the system.
> 
> Now this development by Pakistan ensures that the decision would be taken swiftly and all the units would be provided by a defensive cover


 
Iron Dome is designd to defensive countermeasure to the* rocket threat *not Nuclear Ballestic Missiles,






*Nasar Ballisitic missile has more speed then rocket*....*it may have nuke, its flight can also be at low altitiude.
*

Besides that Nasar is guided and impossible to intercept using Iron Dome

Iron Dome would be useless..

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## humanfirst

Mrls with 60 km range with nuclear warhead..!that is one HELL of a strategic asset.
Any invading army=radio active ashes .
Another important point is that pak scientists have achieved miniaturisation of nukes enough to be fit inside a mrls barrel!

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## MZUBAIR

humanfirst said:


> Mrls with 60 km range with nuclear warhead..!that is one HELL of a strategic asset.
> Any invading army=radio active ashes .
> Another important point is that pak scientists have achieved miniaturisation of nukes enough to be fit inside a mrls barrel!


 
Its goood u got understanding ..I hope ur other Indian fwllows and ofcourse ur Cold War Strategy designers also understod now and "ended that ambiguity but also effectively ended the Indian day dreams of its hunger for limited war against Pakistan through its Cold Start strategy without raising the possibility of use of Nuclear warheads. "

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## The Deterrent

I don't think that a Pakistani SAM would be named Hatf.....because each and every Hatf can deliver a Nuclear Payload...A nuclear SAM???....no,I don't think so...


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## tallboy123

Well,then now its time to Build some NBC personell carriers for army and NBC suits.... 
And convert Pinaka MBRL to have a Mini-Nuke warhead!!!!


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## The Deterrent

tallboy123 said:


> Well,then now its time to Build some NBC personell carriers for army and *NBC suits*....


 
you already have them...


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## tallboy123

AhaseebA said:


> you already have them...


 
*I mean,it should be equipped to all the strike corps with thousands of NBC suits and 100's of NBC vehicles..not just some 100 soldiers... *


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## tallboy123

IA already has 4 of these NBC vehicles developed by DRDO..IA needs it in 100's


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## The Deterrent

tallboy123 said:


> *I mean,it should be equipped to all the strike corps with thousands of NBC suits and 100's of NBC vehicles..not just some 100 soldiers... *


 
How are you going to take care of the immense heat?

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## SR 71 Blackbird

Hatf IX is more like the Smerch MBRL,though it is a BM. BTW the way is there any news on successor of Pinaka with 125km range.

I think IA might posses Iron Dome & David's Sling secretly.Remember those Chinese hackers:
Chinese hackers access India's top secret defence files - 1 -  2010: Defence & Internal Security Special on MSN India

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## tallboy123

AhaseebA said:


> How are you going to take care of the immense heat?



heat???
about which heat r u talking about??
the heat generated in NBC vehicle????


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## rajusri

People talking like nuclear weapon is like toy guns whenever want we can use it. Any use of nuclear weapon will be retaliated by nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

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## The Deterrent

tallboy123 said:


> heat???
> about which heat r u talking about??
> the heat generated in NBC vehicle????


 
I'm talking about a Nuclear NASR exploding in the midst of a convoy 0f 100+ armored vehicles.....I don't think them NBCVs can save the soldiers from baking....


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## The Deterrent

rajusri said:


> People talking like nuclear weapon is like toy guns whenever want we can use it. Any use of nuclear weapon will be retaliated by nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.


 
Every scenario should be considered...In an already started Nuclear war,NASR could be very helpful to take out the IA....

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## SQ8

Bhim said:


> I am surprised myself, how behind every successful research there is an Indian brain.


 
Or an Indian fanboy falsifying Indian brains everywhere.

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## tallboy123

AhaseebA said:


> Every scenario should be considered...In an already started Nuclear war,NASR could be very helpful to take out the IA....


 
hmmmm...Do u thnk IA will be advance alone???
Nope...
first they will send the LCH whihc has anti-tank missiles(165 LCH on order) ,IA will have anti-tanks...
In this case,army would first send the Stealth aircraft from airforce to take out ur land based missiles,Sam's etc..
then the army enters to fight against PA..
u should think in multiple angle...


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## tallboy123

When ur enemy know that its army is vulnerable to ur missiles,they r not dumb to send the army before the Missiles are crippled or destroyed....

In these days of war,its the war of machines....
first attack will be from Airforce n navy .....
*and airforce and navy is there to provide help for army*


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## The Deterrent

tallboy123 said:


> hmmmm...Do u thnk IA will be advance alone???
> Nope...
> first they will send the LCH whihc has anti-tank missiles(165 LCH on order) ,IA will have anti-tanks...
> In this case,army would first send the Stealth aircraft from airforce to take out ur land based missiles,Sam's etc..
> then the army enters to fight against PA..
> u should think in multiple angle...



You are talking about the future...I am talking about the present...
Of course IA would not be alone...actually NASR is to be used against a stationary force which has captured Pakistans area...
Except the satellite surveillance,you cannot know the whereabouts of a NASR vehicle 60 kms away....


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## tallboy123

AhaseebA said:


> You are talking about the future...I am talking about the present...
> Of course IA would not be alone...actually NASR is to be used against a stationary force which has captured Pakistans area...
> Except the satellite surveillance,you cannot know the whereabouts of a NASR vehicle 60 kms away....


 

Hmmm...we already have Risat -2 and by Dec of 2011 we will have Risat -1 in space..
*
And u should know that,army is concentrating on net centric operations...
the coming army excercise near pak border is all about net centric,and highly take info from spy satellites in real time!!!!!! *


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## mautkimaut

AhaseebA said:


> You are talking about the future...I am talking about the present...
> Of course IA would not be alone...actually NASR is to be used against a stationary force which has captured Pakistans area...
> Except the satellite surveillance,you cannot know the whereabouts of a NASR vehicle 60 kms away....


 
i have a question, wouldn't a tactical nuke at 60 km distance give off radioactive emission which can be traced?
I mean if it would be able to trace the missile by radioactive emissions before it can attack , wouldnt that nullify the point of having nukes on a small missile?

Calling GAMBIT to shed some light on the topic


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## SR 71 Blackbird

mautkimaut said:


> i have a question, wouldn't a tactical nuke at 60 km distance give off radioactive emission which can be traced?
> I mean if it would be able to trace the missile by radioactive emissions before it can attack , wouldnt that nullify the point of having nukes on a small missile?
> 
> Calling GAMBIT to shed some light on the topic



You have a valid point.Hope someone clarifies.


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## The Deterrent

mautkimaut said:


> i have a question, wouldn't a tactical nuke at 60 km distance give off radioactive emission which can be traced?
> I mean if it would be able to trace the missile by radioactive emissions before it can attack , wouldnt that nullify the point of having nukes on a small missile?
> 
> Calling GAMBIT to shed some light on the topic



NO,no....radioactive emissions can be detected from 200-300 meters away...
Theres no way you can detect NASR like this

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## mautkimaut

AhaseebA said:


> NO,no....radioactive emissions can be detected from 200-300 meters away...
> Theres no way you can detect NASR like this


 Do you have a graph where it has been mentioned that radioactivity falls off at 200-300 meters?


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## The Deterrent

mautkimaut said:


> Do you have a graph where it has been mentioned that radioactivity falls off at 200-300 meters?


 
I'm searching.....


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## The Deterrent

mautkimaut said:


> Do you have a graph where it has been mentioned that radioactivity falls off at 200-300 meters?


 
I was wrong...a high tech satellite can also detect nuclear weapons...the Americans have it...if it is true (most probably its true)

US Satellite Detection Of Portable Nuclear Weapons

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## fatman17

*Pakistan&#8217;s Nuclear tipped Hatf-IX sends India&#8217;s &#8216;Cold Start&#8217; exercises scrambling for cover*

Posted on 20 April 2011.


Islamabad is keeping its powder dry, its lances ready and its arrows sharpened. There is no time for complacency. IN most cases than not, Bharati combat exercises are matched with Pakistani combat exercises on the other side of the border. It wouldn&#8217;t be surprising if Islamabad announced an exercise within the next few days. Pakistan is talking to Bharat, but keeping its options open. It test fired a tactical Nuclear missile called Hatf-IX to let Bharat know that any attempt to implement &#8220;Cold Start&#8221; would invite a rapid and instantaneous response right on the battlefield. Pakistan has successfully miniaturized its tactical nukes and mounted them on short range missiles like the Hatf-IX. These missiles would thwart any misadventures by Bharat and halt any aggression in its tracks. The tactical nukes will create hell on earth on any Bharati &#8220;Rapid Deployment&#8221; force that attempts to cross the sacred borders of Pakistan and make mincemeat of incoming agressors.

The Hatf-IX test timed to distract the chaos of the 1.13-million combat exercise, codenamed &#8220;Vijayee Bhava&#8221; (Be Victorious), in the Thar desert. Hartf-IX is only part of the arsenal that would diffuse the &#8220;high tempo&#8221; operations that are practicing death across the border.

Delhi has long threatened Pakistan with &#8220;pro-active conventional war strategy&#8221;, (&#8220;cold start&#8221; doctrine). For years Pakistan has perfected the response of this sort of mis-adventure. The lethal nuclear tipped Hatf-IX has a strike range of only 60 km&#8211;clearly brandished as a &#8220;battlefield nuclear weapon&#8221; to deter Indian armored forces from attempting to cross into Pakistan territory. The Hatf-IX is an addition to the long range nuclear Shaheens and medium range Nuclear Ghauris.

The &#8220;Vijayee Bhava&#8221; conventional exercise is &#8220;much a do about nothing&#8221; even though the combat manoeuvres may be simulated under &#8220;a NBC (nuclear, chemical, biological) overhang. The combat exercise, which will enter its peak phase in early-May. It is being primarily conducted by the armoured corps-intensive 2 Corps, considered to be the most crucial of Army&#8217;s three principal &#8220;strike&#8221; formations. Bharat has long dreamed of using this force to cut Pakistan into two during a full-fledged war. Hatf-IX, Ghauri and Shaheen pour water on those designs.

2002: Operation Parakram in 2002 took almost a month to reach D-Day readiness, India has reorganized Army formations all along the western front to enable a more swift and powerful offensive punch. The exercise was a colossal failure. Before the units could mobilize, Pakistani combat exercizes had already mobilized and were ready for combat on the Pakistani border&#8211;sending a clear signal that &#8220;Cold Start&#8221; was a frigid failure.

2005: The South-Western Command (SWAC) was created at Jaipur in 2005 as the Army&#8217;s sixth operational command. With the Mathura-based 1 `Strike&#8217; Corps and Bhatinda-based 10 `Pivot&#8217; Corps under it, SWAC is responsible for offensive operations on the western front in conjunction with the Western Army Command (Chandimandir), which controls the 2 `Strike&#8217; Corps.

The Northern and Bhopal based Southern Army Commands 21 `Strike&#8217; Corps, at Udhampur and Pune respectively, are to play a role in the event of a war but it will be SWAC and WAC which will assume the pivotal roles. The western and southwestern commands of IAF have also stepped up coordination with the different Army commands in the western theatre to synergize efforts to build &#8220;an integrated and organic&#8221; air-land war-fighting machinery.

2009: Bharat tried again in 2009. The Indian 2 Corps conducted the now infamous`Hind Shakti&#8217; exercise to try to test the pro-active (Cold Start) strategy. Cold Start is all about mobilizing fast and hitting hard at several border points to catch the enemy unawares and gain momentum&#8221;.

2011: In 2011 Delhi is trying again. The current `Vijayee Bhava&#8217; exercise includes elements from the Western Army Command (WAC) formations like the Jalandhar-based 11 Corps. The VB will use hundreds of tanks, artillery guns and over 30,000 soldiers. The VB exercise is geared for &#8220;network-centric operations&#8221; will see the extensive use of satellite imagery, helicopter-borne surveillance systems, spy drones and a wide array of land-based radars to &#8220;achieve battlefield transparency&#8221;.

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## mjnaushad

tallboy123 said:


> hmmmm...Do u thnk IA will be advance alone???
> Nope...
> first they will send the LCH whihc has anti-tank missiles(165 LCH on order) ,IA will have anti-tanks...
> In this case,army would first send the Stealth aircraft from airforce to take out ur land based missiles,Sam's etc..
> then the army enters to fight against PA..
> u should think in multiple angle...


 
And the PA will be waiting with one NASR. We wont have Missiles and Aircrafts to shoot down LCH and No radar to Detect stealth Aircraft.


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## Shameel

tallboy123 said:


> so it a 2 tube ,2 missiles on a Truck...with a 60Km range...which can carry nuclear war head right????
> 
> It is not a ballistic missile,coz it doesn't leave the atmosphere....


 
A missile may be ballistic and not leave the atmosphere. Even bullets are ballistic, do they leave the atmosphere?


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## Manticore

tallboy123 said:


> so it a 2 tube ,2 missiles on a Truck...with a 60Km range...which can carry nuclear war head right????
> 
> It is not a ballistic missile,coz it doesn't leave the atmosphere....


 
its a quasi ballistic missile (also called a semi ballistic missile)
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles.html#post1685955

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## ice_man

NASR is a Smerch type rocket system

300-mm Multiple Launch Rocket System 9K58 "Smerch"

BM-30 Smerch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shameel

mafiya said:


> Than what is the use of Hatf-1 and Abdali short range ballistic missiles?


 
Hatf-1 was more of a technology demonstrator. In all probability, it will be discontinued.


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## ice_man

*@ fatman *

wouldn't a 60 km range be very very small...hell it is almost within artillery range!! & this MLRS system can be easily be neutralized by indian Ballistic missile defence???


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## Markus

Also, is it possible for India to locate this system with fire finding radars ?


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## Areesh

ice_man said:


> NASR is a Smerch type rocket system
> 
> 300-mm Multiple Launch Rocket System 9K58 "Smerch"
> 
> BM-30 Smerch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 


ice_man said:


> *@ fatman *
> 
> wouldn't a 60 km range be very very small...hell it is almost within artillery range!! & this MLRS system can be easily be neutralized by indian Ballistic missile defence???


 
For God's sake yaar. All your points have been discussed and answered in previous pages. Read the posts of Taimi Khan, Nabil for the answers. This is a BM, a quasi BM not a rocket. Not just a simple MRL. Please stop comparing it with Smerch or A-100 or Pinaka.

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## KS

Markus said:


> Also, is it possible for India to locate this system with fire finding radars ?


 
No because we dont have WLRs of that range nor do I think Ballistic missile launchers can be detected. Because all WLRs are mentioned only for artillery and Rocket fire. I maybe wrong though.

Actually this WLR system works only for Projectiles falling under gravity it seems;



> When locating enemy artillery, the radar tracks the up-going trajectory of shells, calculates their points of origin and impact and, with other information, displays it to the radar operator(s).



ARTHUR


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## Markus

Karthic Sri said:


> No because we dont have WLRs of that range nor do I think Ballistic missile launchers can be detected. Because all WLRs are mentioned only for artillery and Rocket fire. I maybe wrong though.


 
Since Nasr is tube fired, I think Indian Greenpine will have some business for them.


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## Silk

Markus said:


> Also, is it possible for India to locate this system with fire finding radars ?


 
Did you see that it was guided and changed trajectory extremely rapidly besides being mobile and extremely short reaction time (speed/range)? It is not a artillery shell Markus. What is next? We paint a bulls eye on the launcher?

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## foxhound

nabil_05 said:


> Foxhound, i understand your frustration. Now stick to topic please.


 
sorry I did not realise that i was 'frustrated', apologies for thinking that i was taking the topic off the subject. i was giving the rationality behind the new missile tests and the lessons of that test to potential adversaries (definetly India in this cases as per its wrong cold start doctrine but also to other powers, such as NATO or western forces). i usually like to give different views from open source intelligence material available, i like to take information from various sources so that a fairer picture could be built up - hence every media channel will be bias to a certain degree. Alhamdulillah its a great test for Pakistan (especially in its current state) and sends a strong message to any adversary.

I also will take notes on highlighting certain posts, really to emphasis and to enable readers to either jump to the main part that i considered if it is a lengthy article - i will reduce the emphasis and size of the articles.

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## Markus

Silk said:


> Did you see that it was guided and changed trajectory extremely rapidly besides being mobile and extremely short reaction time (speed/range)? It is not a artillery shell Markus. What is next? We paint a bulls eye on the launcher?


 
Yes, I know.

Since Nasr is a completely new system, I wanted to check its limitations and ways for India to put it in check.


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## KS

Markus said:


> Since Nasr is tube fired, I think Indian Greenpine will have some business for them.


 
I dont understand how ? 

As said these WLR's can only predict the point of Launch by following the trajectory of Shells/Rockets/Mortars.

BTW Swordfish is useful only for Ballistic missiles which re-enterAtmosphere after travelling though space and this missile they say does not do that. !


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## Markus

Karthic Sri said:


> I dont understand how ?
> 
> As said these WLR's can only predict the point of Launch by following the trajectory of Shells/Rockets/Mortars.
> 
> BTW Swordfish is useful only for Ballistic missiles which re-enterAtmosphere after travelling though space and this missile they say does not do that. !


 
Yeah may be.

I am not sure, I am just checking if any our existing systems can be used against it.


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## KS

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan&#8217;s Nuclear tipped Hatf-IX sends India&#8217;s &#8216;Cold Start&#8217; exercises scrambling for cover*
> 
> Posted on 20 April 2011.


 
What a funny article. Does the author know that by nuclear tipping the missile (how-ever Short range it might be or whatever terminology they put on it like Battle field nukes) they invite Indian second strike that will be dis-proportionate ?



Markus said:


> Yeah may be.
> 
> I am not sure, I am just checking *if any our existing systems can be used* against it.


 
I don't think so. Hope our scientists prove me wrong soon.


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## foxhound

Bossman said:


> Cold Start was non-starter from day 1 and NASR is the last nail in what was left of Cold Sart. Cold Start was nothing but 70 year old Blitzkrieg strategy but in the times of nukes and missiles. It never made any sense. The message is clear from Pakistan that any conventional thrust by India will cross the nuclear threshold. If they want to play Chicken with that they are welcome.
> 
> Foxhound and all the other Indians on this forum can post all their wet dreams about Cold Start but thier own Generals know its not worth the paper its written on. Infact the posts by Foxhound above is a clear sign of frustration by Indians. They spend Billions of dollars importing Russians tanks to create their strike Corps and one missile test by Pakistan of battlefield nuke spoils the party. Pathetic!


 
Lol, its funny that when you try to give different perspectives or mention an article from the 'other side' then it must show that I must be an 'Indian'....lol far far from the truth. I am sorry if I indicated that i was 'frustrated' - i was trying to give some rationality into the new missile tests and how it could affect the doctrine of others. its good to give a comparisons - the regular Indian exercises on Pakistans borders and the wrong cold start doctrine was one way of Pakistan demonstrating that the cold start doctrine is a failure.
I hope that these weapons are never exercised in real as it would indicate that DETERRENCE has failed - resulting in catastrophic destruction in this region and also the potential effects of this globally. Pakistan and India will eventually have a TRIAD of delivery systems - until they will reach the Mutual assured destruction (MAD doctrine) phase. they will then need to reduce the threat to each other by having talks on reducing and minimising the impact of a nuclear conflict, by have things like the START Tready (Strategic Arms reduction treaty - reductions of WMDs etc).
You need to read the posts properly and then see if i was frustrated.....a tip - take information from various sources and that will give you an indication of how credible the information you have. do not fear to quote from many sources, this is how you build a better picture of the situation. I try to bring different info from various sources to see how the 'bigger' picture fits.

My info indicates that this test was a message not only to the Indians but to NATO and US forces in the region - any that harbours ill designs of dismantling Pakistans WMDs would fail and meet a serious response. Think out of the box, - currently the zionists are the greatest threats for peace around the world (especially in muslim countries). I would not be surprised if NATO/US forces fail and the neo-cons then encourage Pakistans neighbours to cause tensions resulting in a nuclear exchange -if the western forces are not able to reign in Pakistan maybe they can get others to do it, but knowing well that it will be destructions for both sides (but western forces will just see it as the 'brown' boys destroying each other, hence no worry because it will be like killing to birds with one stone).


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## Adios Amigo

Karthic Sri said:


> What a funny article. Does the author know that by nuclear tipping the missile (how-ever Short range it might be or whatever terminology they put on it like Battle field nukes) they invite Indian second strike that will be dis-proportionate ?


 
Ya sure... the article is funny enough..... But less then the idea of attacking(cold start) a nuclear armed nation... did the military strategist ever realized the fact... that such a misadventure... could turn into a full scale nuclear war... and the limited advantage that your country believes to enjoy... might not be actually there...

So stop this nonsense right now... wake up...smell some coffee...... you guys are grossly mistaken.... attacking Pakistan... and expecting it to play by your rules.....purely a sign of delusion......

And as far the dis-proportionate use of nuclear arsenal.... time will tell ... who holds the horses....and for how long..... My take... dust to dust...ashes to ashes.

You guys playing with fire and expecting not get burnt.... 

Moral of the story..... gone are the days ..... when India thought it can attack Pakistan.... at its will...... in fact there wasn't any such times in our brief history..... we never provided you this luxury.... specially post 1998.... it has been proved several times.... and i need not to re-open this debate.... You guys are well aware of it...... So stop justifying your dreams to attack and paralyze us...... without getting a noticeable response..... we are very clear about over sovereignty visa-vis India...... You need to get clear as well.



Adios!

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## Markus

lolzz.......the very mention of cold start sends down the shivers in somebody's spine.

Nobody wants to consider the fact that Indian govt has itself stated that no such thing as cold start exists with the Indian miliatry.

Why keep harping abt something when it does not exist at all?


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## Adios Amigo

Markus said:


> lolzz.......the very mention of cold start sends down the shivers in somebody's spine.
> 
> Nobody wants to consider the fact that Indian govt has itself stated that no such thing as cold start exists with the Indian miliatry.
> 
> Why keep harping abt something when it does not exist at all?


 
Sending shivers down somebody's spine???? ...... well not the case at all..... but definitely an aggressive design.... which should be watched out for.... those who think otherwise..... must be living in fools paradise... and we don't want being there.... we as usual would take the safe side.... prepare ourselves for the eventualities..... Thats what the logic says too..... you don't wanna get caught sleeping..... 

Doesn't matter if it exists or not... or some one excepts it or not..... but what is important to us ....that now a definite counter exists..... Precaution is better then cure!!




Adios!

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## Markus

Adios Amigo said:


> Sending shivers down somebody's spine???? ...... well not the case at all..... but definitely an aggressive design.... which should be watched out for.... those who think otherwise..... must be living in fools paradise... and we don't want being there.... we as usual would take the safe side.... prepare ourselves for the eventualities..... Thats what the logic says too..... you don't wanna get caught sleeping.....
> 
> Doesn't matter if it exists or not... or some one excepts it or not..... but what is important to us ....*that now a definite counter exists.*.... Precaution is better then cure!!
> 
> 
> Adios!


 
I still dont agree with you.

You have made this system alright.

But usage of a nucleared Nasr on Indian troops even on ur soil will require lot of guts.

You have to keep in mind of the response that may come if u guys ever plan to go through "that" road.


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## foxhound

Markus said:


> lolzz.......the very mention of cold start sends down the shivers in somebody's spine.
> 
> Nobody wants to consider the fact that Indian govt has itself stated that no such thing as cold start exists with the Indian miliatry.
> 
> Why keep harping abt something when it does not exist at all?



I think the Indian government will try to distance it self from the cold start doctrine as it becomes more and more aware of its futility.
extract from http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Ladwig, Cold Start NPS Paper.pdf

_ In April 2004, the Indian Army announced a new limited war doctrine that would allow it
to mobilize quickly and undertake retaliatory attacks in response to specific challenges
posed by Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;proxy war&#8221; in Kashmir. This Cold Start doctrine marked a break
from the fundamentally defensive orientation that the Indian military has employed since
independence. Cold Start represents a significant undertaking for the Indian military as it
requires combined arms to operate jointly with airpower from the Indian Air Force._

_*Cold Start and India&#8217;s Grand Strategy*India&#8217;s national security establishment faces significant difficulty in linking its grand
strategy to the development of its military doctrines and plans. As a result of the grand
bargain struck at independence, Indian civil-military relations appear to conform to the
Huntingtonian model of separate political and military spheres: Indian service chiefs
have been granted operational autonomy in return for extremely limited input into
national security policy-making at the highest levels.63 Barry Posen has argued that the
intervention of civilian leadership is necessary to ensure that a state&#8217;s military doctrine is
well integrated with its grand strategy, a situation that does not appear to be the case with
Cold Start.64
Within India, few politicians are well versed in military affairs, and the actual
expertise in defense matters possessed by civil servants in the Ministry of Defense is
&#8220;patchy&#8221; at best.65 Moreover, following Nehru&#8217;s blundering political interference in the
1962 war, Indian politicians have been wary of intervening in the details of military
matters.66 As a result, the armed services are often left to develop their strategies and
plans without significant civilian direction, a practice that is unlikely to result in the
fusion of strategic and military goals.
While this structural-bureaucratic problem is unlikely to be resolved in the near term,
the Indian Army can take steps to address many of the issues raised in this paper by
adopting a more transparent stance on Cold Start. The available evidence indicates that
the Indian army developed Cold Start with minimal guidance from the country&#8217;s political
leadership. Refusal to engage in broader-based discussions of the Cold Start concept on
the grounds that it is a warfighting strategy is myopic. If Cold Start is indeed a real
concept for limited war rather than just a bureaucratic justification for army
modernization programs, its strategic and policy implications deserve to be assessed by
both India&#8217;s political establishment and its strategic community. In particular, there
needs to be a rigorous examination of the impact the development of an organizational
Cold Start capability would have on India&#8217;s strategic goals vis-à-vis Pakistan. Active
pursuit of a limited war strategy runs the risk of upsetting favorable trends within
Pakistan, most notably improved bilateral relations between India and Pakistan and the
Pakistan Army&#8217;s fight against domestic militancy._

concluding...

_It is a well-worn military axiom that no plan survives contact with the enemy. Cold
Start is an example of creative military problem-solving in response to Pakistan&#8217;s support
for terrorism and stated rejection of a no-first-use nuclear doctrine. By moving away
from the Sundarji doctrine, the Indian Army believes that it is developing the ability to
respond to a Pakistani proxy war with conventional force, while remaining below the
nuclear threshold. While Cold Start represents a significant advance in India&#8217;s
conventional capabilities, it is a concept that is poorly aligned with India&#8217;s broader
strategic goals. In the near term, active pursuit of Cold Start could have a pernicious
impact on India&#8217;s burgeoning relations with Pakistan. In the longer-term, if Cold Start
were operationalized, it could risk provoking or escalating a crisis on the subcontinent
that could breach the nuclear threshold._


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## Manas

*I suggest Pakistan use all its nuclear arsenals while going along with the strike this Tactical nuclear weapon carrying missile as there'll be full fledge indian nuclear response for Half-9,leaving no chance for Pakistan to strike back.*


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## Markus

foxhound said:


> I think the Indian government will try to distance it self from the cold start doctrine as it becomes more and more aware of its futility.
> extract from http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Ladwig, Cold Start NPS Paper.pdf
> 
> _ In April 2004, the Indian Army announced a new limited war doctrine that would allow it
> to mobilize quickly and undertake retaliatory attacks in response to specific challenges
> posed by Pakistans proxy war in Kashmir. This Cold Start doctrine marked a break
> from the fundamentally defensive orientation that the Indian military has employed since
> independence. Cold Start represents a significant undertaking for the Indian military as it
> requires combined arms to operate jointly with airpower from the Indian Air Force._
> 
> _*Cold Start and Indias Grand Strategy*Indias national security establishment faces significant difficulty in linking its grand
> strategy to the development of its military doctrines and plans. As a result of the grand
> bargain struck at independence, Indian civil-military relations appear to conform to the
> Huntingtonian model of separate political and military spheres: Indian service chiefs
> have been granted operational autonomy in return for extremely limited input into
> national security policy-making at the highest levels.63 Barry Posen has argued that the
> intervention of civilian leadership is necessary to ensure that a states military doctrine is
> well integrated with its grand strategy, a situation that does not appear to be the case with
> Cold Start.64
> Within India, few politicians are well versed in military affairs, and the actual
> expertise in defense matters possessed by civil servants in the Ministry of Defense is
> patchy at best.65 Moreover, following Nehrus blundering political interference in the
> 1962 war, Indian politicians have been wary of intervening in the details of military
> matters.66 As a result, the armed services are often left to develop their strategies and
> plans without significant civilian direction, a practice that is unlikely to result in the
> fusion of strategic and military goals.
> While this structural-bureaucratic problem is unlikely to be resolved in the near term,
> the Indian Army can take steps to address many of the issues raised in this paper by
> adopting a more transparent stance on Cold Start. The available evidence indicates that
> the Indian army developed Cold Start with minimal guidance from the countrys political
> leadership. Refusal to engage in broader-based discussions of the Cold Start concept on
> the grounds that it is a warfighting strategy is myopic. If Cold Start is indeed a real
> concept for limited war rather than just a bureaucratic justification for army
> modernization programs, its strategic and policy implications deserve to be assessed by
> both Indias political establishment and its strategic community. In particular, there
> needs to be a rigorous examination of the impact the development of an organizational
> Cold Start capability would have on Indias strategic goals vis-à-vis Pakistan. Active
> pursuit of a limited war strategy runs the risk of upsetting favorable trends within
> Pakistan, most notably improved bilateral relations between India and Pakistan and the
> Pakistan Armys fight against domestic militancy._
> 
> concluding...
> 
> _It is a well-worn military axiom that no plan survives contact with the enemy. Cold
> Start is an example of creative military problem-solving in response to Pakistans support
> for terrorism and stated rejection of a no-first-use nuclear doctrine. By moving away
> from the Sundarji doctrine, the Indian Army believes that it is developing the ability to
> respond to a Pakistani proxy war with conventional force, while remaining below the
> nuclear threshold. While Cold Start represents a significant advance in Indias
> conventional capabilities, it is a concept that is poorly aligned with Indias broader
> strategic goals. In the near term, active pursuit of Cold Start could have a pernicious
> impact on Indias burgeoning relations with Pakistan. In the longer-term, if Cold Start
> were operationalized, it could risk provoking or escalating a crisis on the subcontinent
> that could breach the nuclear threshold._


 
Thats a 2004 link.

There were plans of something like this but it was disbanded soon after as the Indian military did not have the resources to implement such a thing.

With Indian military modernizing itself, maybe in the future we can think of something like that.

And no, Nasr will not deter cold start if we plan to do it.


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## foxhound

Markus said:


> I still dont agree with you.
> 
> You have made this system alright.
> 
> *But usage of a nucleared Nasr on Indian troops even on ur soil will require lot of guts.*
> You have to keep in mind of the response that may come if u guys ever plan to go through "that" road.



I believe that the Kargil war indicated a* lot of 'guts' *and indicated to the Indians that Pakistan would be willing/taking a risk which any nuclear state would never consider (unthinkable). No nuclear states have ever gone into armed conflicts (the US/Soviet Union did go through proxies but no direct exchange - though there was a border skirmish with the then Soviet union and China somwhere in the 80s i think). Hence 'guts' have been indicated (irrespective of whether it was wise or not).


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## Adios Amigo

Markus said:


> I still dont agree with you.
> 
> You have made this system alright.
> 
> But usage of a nucleared Nasr on Indian troops even on ur soil will require lot of guts.
> 
> You have to keep in mind of the response that may come if u guys ever plan to go through "that" road.



I never expect you to agree with me..... 

But you know what ..... I still don't believe that.... Indian forces will be able to gather up their guts....and cross the border.... I don't see that in the foreseeable future.... and that stood correct even without Nasr.....

And as far the response.... we are very clear about it..... but you guys aren't ready to embrace the response your gonna get... the day you think of crossing the border..... (I am specifically talking about the net zens like your good self.... plus your cry cry again media..... as far as your armed forces are concerned.... they are pretty much clear about it.....so take a leaf from the history book....and derive a conclusion yourself.....whats gonna happen in future)

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## Markus

foxhound said:


> I believe that the Kargil war indicated a* lot of 'guts' *and indicated to the Indians that Pakistan would be willing/taking a risk which any nuclear state would never consider (unthinkable). No nuclear states have ever gone into armed conflicts (the US/Soviet Union did go through proxies but no direct exchange - though there was a border skirmish with the then Soviet union and China somwhere in the 80s i think). Hence 'guts' have been indicated (irrespective of whether it was wise or not).


 
Kargil was conventional, I am referring to using nucleared Nasr


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## Tiger Awan

Manas said:


> *I suggest Pakistan use all its nuclear arsenals while going along with the strike this Tactical nuclear weapon carrying missile as there'll be full fledge indian nuclear response for Half-9,leaving no chance for Pakistan to strike back.*


 
lolz

i suggest you first check when will Pakistan use this missile??? (when some one will attack)

so what you say??? we should not reply???

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## Tiger Awan

So surprised to see indian members (some of them not all) think Pakistan will get one hell of a response if NASR is used, then they also believe cold war doctrine (if used by india) will not get the same response. Why???

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## graphican

Thats the imbalance in your mind which is giving India a "kick to do something". Until there is a feeling on Indian side that India would come out victorious out of a Nuclear War.. the wishes like "Surgical Strike" and "Cold Start" will keep appearing and this is where such tactile armaments come handy. 

I am happy that after the development of Nasr, war with India is less of a possibility than it was the day before it got tested. So I would congratulate Pakistanis as well as Indians that they are at more distance from a Nuclear War than you were before.

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## AvidSpice

Adios Amigo said:


> Ya sure... the article is funny enough..... But less then the idea of attacking(cold start) a nuclear armed nation... did the military strategist ever realized the fact... that such a misadventure... could turn into a full scale nuclear war... and the limited advantage that your country believes to enjoy... might not be actually there...
> 
> So stop this nonsense right now... wake up...smell some coffee...... you guys are grossly mistaken.... attacking Pakistan... and expecting it to play by your rules.....purely a sign of delusion......
> 
> And as far the dis-proportionate use of nuclear arsenal.... time will tell ... who holds the horses....and for how long..... My take... dust to dust...ashes to ashes.
> 
> You guys playing with far and expecting not get burnt....
> 
> Moral of the story..... gone are the days ..... when India thought it can attack Pakistan.... at its will...... in fact there wasn't any such times in our brief history..... we never provided you this luxury.... specially post 1998.... it has been proved several times.... and i need not to re-open this debate.... You guys are well aware of it...... So stop justifying your dreams to attack and paralyze us...... without getting a noticeable response..... we are very clear about over sovereignty visa-vis India...... You need to get clear as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Adios!


 
Hi, I very much agree with what you have written. Just to clear some doubts, even the slightest if there are any, I would like to say that my country doesn't want to invade Pakistan just for the sake of it. It's neither feasible economically...and nor militarily to some extent, as you have mentioned. Now what happens, if the another 9/11 happens in India? What if the act is traced back to Pakistan? Will India restrain itself once again? 

The answer I'm not very sure but I can tell you once thing, if India decides to launch an attack then our very existence will come under danger. The irreparable loss that both countries will have to suffer will be unmatched. I hope sanity prevails.

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## Areesh

graphican said:


> Thats the imbalance in your mind which is giving India a "kick to do something". Until there is a feeling on Indian side that India would come out victorious out of a Nuclear War.. the wishes like "Surgical Strike" and "Cold Start" will keep appearing and this is where such tactile armaments come handy.
> 
> I am happy that after the development of Nasr, war with India is less of a possibility than it was the day before it got tested. *So I would congratulate Pakistanis as well as Indians that they are at more distance from a Nuclear War than you were before.*


 
Bold part is classic. Great post Graphican.


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## graphican

> Now what happens, if the another 9/11 happens in India? What if the act is traced back to Pakistan? Will India restrain itself once again?



I ask you the same.. what if we find a similar attack on Pakistani Soil coming from India? Will the war be the answer for that or probing in collaboration with India and punishing the individuals who did that would be solution. Don't forget Samjhota Express was an Indian act of terrorism done by Indians against Pakistan. So what you expect that Pakistanis would get out of mind and run towards borders yelling against India?

Common guys start thinking at-least.. I know not every body in India has rational thinking but let there be few at-least.. for the sake of survival of this region at-least! Punish the ones who are terrorists.. not whole Country is terrorists neither whole Pakistan wants what those 10-20 people may want.

And the way you guys react shows India is sooooo manipulatable.. even 10 men can bring a nuclear war to your country.

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## AvidSpice

It's sad how we keep talking about nuking each other. It's very easy to speak our guts out. The other day, I read biographies of people who survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At the end, I had tears in my eyes. Such was the destruction. Folks, nukes are not child's play. Nukes are meant to be a deterrent. I hope they are never used, be it in a battlefield or for mass destruction.

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## Adios Amigo

Avishekh said:


> Hi, I very much agree with what you have written. Just to clear some doubts, even the slightest if there are any, I would like to say that my country doesn't want to invade Pakistan just for the sake of it. It's neither feasible economically...and nor militarily to some extent, as you have mentioned. Now what happens, if the another 9/11 happens in India? What if the act is traced back to Pakistan? Will India restrain itself once again?
> 
> The answer I'm not very sure but I can tell you once thing, if India decides to launch an attack then our very existence will come under danger. The irreparable loss that both countries will have to suffer will be unmatched. I hope sanity prevails.


 
This proves..... War is not a solution to the problems.... but a problem in itself....

What needs to be done..... is to built a Mechanism..... to stop any such mishaps..... And if happens what mode of tackling it should be perused by both the countries.... This would require an agreement.... and for agreement..... you got to come to the dialogue table.... and discuss and reach solutions to all the disputed issues..... only then a long lasting peace can prevail in South Asia!

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## AvidSpice

Adios Amigo said:


> This proves..... War is not a solution to the problems.... but a problem in itself....
> 
> What needs to be done..... is to built a Mechanism..... to stop any such mishaps..... And if happens what mode of tackling it should be perused by both the countries.... This would require an agreement.... and for agreement..... you got to come to the dialogue table.... and discuss and reach solutions to all the disputed issues..... only then a long lasting peace can prevail in South Asia!


 
Yes and aren't we once again trying to do that? I'm not sure whether the problem would ever be solved for I'm not a soothsayer but all I can say that hatred can lead to insanity and insanity to war. I'm not a preacher of peace but I don't want to see the people of my country suffer.


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## KS

Adios Amigo said:


> Ya sure... the article is funny enough..... But less then the idea of attacking(cold start) a nuclear armed nation... did the military strategist ever realized the fact... that such a misadventure... could turn into a full scale nuclear war... and the limited advantage that your country believes to enjoy... might not be actually there...
> 
> So stop this nonsense right now... wake up...smell some coffee...... you guys are grossly mistaken.... attacking Pakistan... and expecting it to play by your rules.....purely a sign of delusion......
> 
> And as far the dis-proportionate use of nuclear arsenal.... time will tell ... who holds the horses....and for how long..... My take... dust to dust...ashes to ashes.
> 
> You guys playing with far and expecting not get burnt....
> 
> Moral of the story..... gone are the days ..... when India thought it can attack Pakistan.... at its will...... in fact there wasn't any such times in our brief history..... we never provided you this luxury.... specially post 1998.... it has been proved several times.... and i need not to re-open this debate.... You guys are well aware of it...... So stop justifying your dreams to attack and paralyze us...... without getting a noticeable response..... we are very clear about over sovereignty visa-vis India...... You need to get clear as well.
> 
> Adios!


 
Suffice to say, no Army (including Pakistan) will press the red button until and unless its very survival (read disintegration), the very base is threatened and the Cold Start for all the hype it receives is designed to do neither of that *and the Pak Army knows that*.

If the nukes are the ultimate deterrent and will be dropped at the drop of a hat as some people claim why does the Pak Army even care for artillery, tanks,Fighters etc ? Will they not invest the entire money in nukes. ?. The idea is that conventional weapons are still not out of vogue.

And my post was specifically aimed at the article which claims that Nasr is a Battlefield Nuke and even after firing some how Pak will get away with it. While in reality any nuke attack - even sub-kiloton battle field nukes - will ultimately be treated ONLY as nukes and the response will be as per our stated NFU Doctrine - Massive and Disproportionate.

So actually it is not me who needs to wake up and smell coffee, but its the other way around where people who think that nukes will be used immediately at the drop of a bomb.

And how you managed to insert Cold Start into what I have written is still beyond me, 



graphican said:


> Thats the imbalance in your mind which is giving India a "kick to do something". Until there is a feeling on Indian side that India would come out victorious out of a Nuclear War.. the wishes like "Surgical Strike" and "Cold Start" will keep appearing and this is where such tactile armaments come handy.
> 
> I am happy that after the development of Nasr, war with India is less of a possibility than it was the day before it got tested. So I would congratulate Pakistanis as well as Indians that they are at more distance from a Nuclear War than you were before.


 
If Pakistan decides to use the nukes I suggest better use Shaheens and their big payloads rather than using a sub-kiloton Nasr as the response will be the same.

There is nothing called a Tactical nuke. Nuke is a Nuke, Or atleast the official Indian NFU Doctrine says so.

*p.s.: *What is the fixation with Cold Start for you people. There is NO such thing like that.


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## ameer219

I hope now both the Military establishment of Pakistan and India can work on a new doctrine.

The doctrine of friendship...

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## AvidSpice

ameer219 said:


> I hope now both the Military establishment of Pakistan and India can work on a new doctrine.
> 
> The doctrine of friendship...


 
That will be pretty much difficult at least in the foreseeable future. We tried being friends for quite a number of times, didn't we? There are some people both in India and Pakistan and as well as outside who would never want to see an alliance between the two countries, no matter how hard the political leadership tries to do that. It's all part of politics. What we need are brave leaders- who would have nerves and balls of steel, who will be a rational and a logical thinker, who wouldn't tremble when extremists scream and finally one who would be ready to give peace a chance.

P.S: On a lighter note: May be I should aim to become the next Prime Minister!

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## Cold-Fire

BAs bhai AB jab Missile ki TAFSILAAT mukamal ho gayin TO 

PAK-Bharat Ki 

kabhi na khtam ho ney wali JANG-E-AZEEM shuru ho gayi


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## waz

It's very much a last ditch weapon. Conventional forces will be countered by conventional forces. To play a low yield weapon game with India is very dangerous and fool hardy and the military know that. 

There is a reason why we have one of the largest armies on this planet.

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## nightcrawler

Congratulations & Congratulations...i don't know if I be a fortune teller but day before this thread I wrote: 


nightcrawler said:


> ^^...& we should get ourselves something like S-300 or perhaps Tochka, Tender systems to atleast have some land superiority!!


...& perhaps my wishes come true 
Taimikhan thnx for giving technical info..however I have some reserves regrading Iskander which isn't like a common Quasi-ballistic as it can intercept the aerial threats as well..& not like typical ATACMs wich are destined for what I say *land superiority*!!
Our system is a mirror image of Russian Tochka system & not Smerch as was written by an Indian in above posts:
SS-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For precision puposes this system will surely come in handy/ Armed not with nuclear [I am against it] but fragmentation warheads it deliver serious damage to the advancing army especially tanks regiments...
Our MRLS systems which are mature enough must be used at the frontlines & then for reload scoot way in the meanwhile these systems can precisely attach the enemies counter-measuring regiments. 
One must be careful that such systems ( ATACMs) really are prone to be attacked because within battlefield their smoke alone will produce enough visible signature...even more than an MLRS


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## graphican

You could google it. but here are few resources. 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | India 'entered Pakistan airspace'
Pakistan Says Indian Aircraft Violated Airspace - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com
Pakistan: India violated airspace - World news - South and Central Asia - msnbc.com


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## graphican

@Everybody, 

Back to Topic.. There has been enough derailing already!


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## The Deterrent

*So the Bottom line is ,that Pakistan has taken another step to bring the unbalance of power in the region to normal.....which is good for both countries....
Honestly,I don't think there will be another direct IndoPak war....*


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## KS

graphican said:


> You could google it. but here are few resources.
> 
> BBC NEWS | South Asia | India 'entered Pakistan airspace'
> Pakistan Says Indian Aircraft Violated Airspace - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com
> Pakistan: India violated airspace - World news - South and Central Asia - msnbc.com


 
These things happen all the time and as quoted in BBC (which is the only credible one listed) this was inadvertant and nowhere it says it was carrying warheads.

BTW how is this still relevant to the mythical Cold Start ?


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## The Deterrent

*Hey guys,got an amazing idea.....

What if the same miniaturized nuclear warhead is mounted on a TORPEDO and sent off for VIRAAT or ARIHANT during a war???*

I don't this will be that noticeable and cause massive retaliation....


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## Dazzler

AhaseebA said:


> *So the Bottom line is ,that Pakistan has taken another step to bring the unbalance of power in the region to normal.....which is good for both countries....
> Honestly,I don't think there will be another direct IndoPak war....*


 
In reply to this i just want to say one thing. The moment you closed your eyes, will be the moment you are at your most vulnerable.

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## The Deterrent

nabil_05 said:


> In reply to this i just want to say one thing. The moment you closed your eyes, will be the moment you are at your most vulnerable.


 
Of course....but considering *ALL* factors?...anyway,its my personal opinion...
I didn't say we should stop making nukes...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Before we tested our miniature nuke..............indians were boasting of a cold war and now...........suddenly there is no cold war....LOL

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## Rafi

Pakistan now, has the full spectrum nuclear warfare capability, with new multi megaton strategic MIRV assets in development, to sub-kiloton tactical battlefield weapons. We have now in place a deterrence against a sneak attack both conventional and unconventional. 

And when our array of SAR equipped EO - Satellites are in orbit, we will have networked through the use of thermal imaging any missile launch or even the engines of an indian army armored regiment. 

* RSSS is planned to be a progressive and sustainable program. Initially, SUPARCO plans to launch an optical satellite with payload of 2.5 meter PAN in 700 km sun-synchronous orbit by the end of year 2011, which will be followed by a series of optical and SAR satellites in future. Necessary infrastructure for ground control and image reception and processing is also planned to be setup.*

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## graphican

> I didn't say we should stop making nukes...



Not after having Nasr in the inventory.. we would need more of those as there are lots of launchers for those. 

I am waiting for the day when Pakistan would have Submarine Launch Cruise Missile in our arsenal.. that will be yet another candidate for the nuclear "tip".

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## mr_cool

Congrats pakistani scientists - we salute you! Amidst all the bad news we constantly hear regarding pakistan (i.e. drone attacks, bombings etc..) Its nice to finally see some good news for a change!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

I hope we work on a sub launched nuke capable missiles........ Would be awesome to see the agostas and the new JV subs firing missiles while submerged......... :SNIPER: = COLD WAR.

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## tallboy123

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I hope we work on a sub launched nuke.ballastic missile........ Would be awesome to see the agostas and the new JV subs firing missiles while submerged......... :SNIPER: = COLD WAR.


 
Firing ballistic missile from Agostas and Diesel submarines????


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## DESERT FIGHTER

tallboy123 said:


> Firing ballistic missile from Agostas and Diesel submarines????


 
Naval launched version of Babur CMB........... I heard they r already making one.


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## somebozo

Muslims are the pioneer of fighting effective battles with less manpower and lower quality weapons.
Congatulation to Pakistani defence industry for this accomplishment.
I said last year that low intensity short range nukes could render cold start ineffective.
Watching my idea turned into reality is indeed inspiring. 

The sheel will of Pakistani people will always keep it protected.

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## unicorn

After this test deep inside many people across the border knows that Pakistan have now achieved the capability of using the nuclear weapons in a non nuclear environment which obviously our adversary does not possess.Furthermore with this baby Pakistan have not only gain the tactical weapons advantage over india but have taken it to a completely different level.Thanks to our scientists who work day and night and despite the limited resources make things which are completely out of the box.

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## mr_cool

I think it is good pakistan is developing missiles for different scenarios including short range missiles which may need to be used on our own territory! I know it may sound crazy but its best to be prepared for worse case scenarios.After all, better safe than sorry right!?

The thing is, most missiles are designed to be hit in enemy territory - which is obviously ideal. However, what if a scenario occurs where a foreign army is able to enter pakistan? this would usually occur when they have been able to outpower/out manouvre your airforce/army etc...
so in another word they will be pretty much close to taking over pakistan...it is scenarios such as this that will require using these types of short range missiles, even on our territory as it will be better than surrendering!

BTW, in response to all those people who feel pakistan should not use this missile on indian forces IF they manage to cross into pakistan, as it will end up triggering a nuclear strikes from india...well i think you guys need to re-think about this in more detail rather than starting childish arguments unnecessarily.
IF indian army manages to come into pakistan, what do you expect us to do? Give all control of pakistan over to you?? Ofcourse not! that is where we would use such missiles as at that point its either use last resorts or surrender!

I know its not ideal to use such missiles (especially nuclear capable) in your own territory....but dont forget they are not designed to be fired off every second day, as some of you are making it sound like. They are designed to be used when pakistan is under threat and as a last resort! when it comes to a question of Pakistan's survival then everything is allowed!! Even if it means taking the enemy down with us!!


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## Dazzler

I even forgot what this thread was all about

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## The Deterrent

nabil_05 said:


> I even forgot what this thread was all about


 
It is about NASR...

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## SQ8

The fact is.. this new missile is a dangerous development.
First, it has now openly declared the long "hush" policy of first use of our nukes.
Second, if used with a miniature nuke, you go into two types of escalation... tit for tat.. or all out.
In a tit for tat scenario you keep upping the nuclear ante till you have lost it all... a strike on an armored column is answered by a strike on an airfield...which is answered by a strike on a small city.. etc
Unfortunately.. Pakistan has very little to lose.. and not in the positive sense of the phrase.

In an all out scenario, you are gambling on the fact that the use of this weapon will bring a halt to the enemy's resolve, letting them know you are prepared to use nuclear weapons on your own soil.
Which brings us to two scenario's again..
1. It works: the enemy backs down, horrified by the use of the nuclear weapon, you go to negotiations.. you settle.. but the effect of radiation doesn't negotiate..your populace, your environment is effect, and while the enemy may or may not feel the effects.. you do..for years and years to come. Possibly leading to a national collapse anyway.

2. It fails: the Enemy retaliates.. then you either go into a tit for tat scenario.. or go all out..in which case you use everything you have. Ensuring your own complete utter destruction in the process, but taking the enemy with you.
India's second strike will wipe out whatever is Pakistan(save balochistan and FATA maybe..ironic isnt it??).. but that second strike will save very little.. the horror of nuclear aftermath will leave India mangled, devastated.. and with a small chance of recovery. Since it is assumed in the circles that be. that any strike by Pakistan will include the essential resources as well.. especially those that involve water.

In any case, it seems the "fears" in the Indian media arent all built of paper.. there is still a large belligerent faction in the PA.. that does not want to let go of its main "source" of existence.

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## graphican

Sir Nabil, 

Thanks for giving another big news of Hatf-10! you deserve 10/10 for revealing this 10!

Regarding Hatf-9, is there any idea how much would it cost and what are the prospects of exporting it?


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## newdelhinsa

Santro said:


> The fact is.. this new missile is a dangerous development.
> First, it has now openly declared the long "hush" policy of first use of our nukes.
> Second, if used with a miniature nuke, you go into two types of escalation... tit for tat.. or all out.
> In a tit for tat scenario you keep upping the nuclear ante till you have lost it all... a strike on an armored column is answered by a strike on an airfield...which is answered by a strike on a small city.. etc
> Unfortunately.. Pakistan has very little to lose.. and not in the positive sense of the phrase.
> 
> In an all out scenario, you are gambling on the fact that the use of this weapon will bring a halt to the enemy's resolve, letting them know you are prepared to use nuclear weapons on your own soil.
> Which brings us to two scenario's again..
> 1. It works: the enemy backs down, horrified by the use of the nuclear weapon, you go to negotiations.. you settle.. but the effect of radiation doesn't negotiate..your populace, your environment is effect, and while the enemy may or may not feel the effects.. you do..for years and years to come. Possibly leading to a national collapse anyway.
> 
> 2. It fails: the Enemy retaliates.. then you either go into a tit for tat scenario.. or go all out..in which case you use everything you have. Ensuring your own complete utter destruction in the process, but taking the enemy with you.
> India's second strike will wipe out whatever is Pakistan(save balochistan and FATA maybe..ironic isnt it??).. but that second strike will save very little.. the horror of nuclear aftermath will leave India mangled, devastated.. and with a small chance of recovery. Since it is assumed in the circles that be. that any strike by Pakistan will include the essential resources as well.. especially those that involve water.
> 
> In any case, it seems the "fears" in the Indian media arent all built of paper.. there is still a large belligerent faction in the PA.. that does not want to let go of its main "source" of existence.


 
Bullshit.
You have just tested some rocket or SRBM which you already have many years before not a tactical nuke. A good read of Indian nuclear doctrine will bust you nauseating tall claims.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

newdelhinsa said:


> Bullshit.
> You have just tested some rocket or SRBM which you already have many years before not a tactical nuke. A good read of Indian nuclear doctrine will bust you nauseating tall claims.


 
Buddy, only USA has the tech to produce such a sophisticated weapon...called "lance"............ Also it is a miniature nuke thts why it has a range of 60 kms..........not 600 or 6000 km.

Learn to read n comprehend.

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## ynmian

what is the meaning of a 60km range missile with nuclear capability. u know what i mean. if you detonate a nuclear bomb 60km away, you will also be a victim of that nuke because u r just 60km away form that blast


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## newdelhinsa

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Buddy, only USA has the tech to produce such a sophisticated weapon...called "lance"............ Also it is a miniature nuke thts why it has a range of 60 kms..........not 600 or 6000 km.
> 
> Learn to read n comprehend.



There is no such terminology like miniature nuke. There is no such relationship between SRBM and ~miniature nuke. One can tip any BM or cruise missile with tactical nuke. The only question would be why you will tip tactical nuke when your opponent has drafted a doctrine to go for punitive retaliation with nuclear weapons to inflict damage unacceptable to the aggressor after any nuclear attack on its forces or nation?
People here are talking about a gravity bomb with sub kiloton yield if i am not wrong and it qualifies to be a tactical nuke which Pakistan has never tested it. Rest of the news is to celebrate a Hatf series BM with 60 KM range (less than 70 km hatf I) with a flight time of 1.3~ mins, gaining altitude less then 30 km with unknown accuracy, given a armoured column is moving with situational awareness about everything taking off from Pakistani side.
my two cents


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## SQ8

newdelhinsa said:


> There is no such terminology like miniature nuke. There is no such relationship between SRBM and ~miniature nuke. One can tip any BM or cruise missile with tactical nuke. The only question would be why you will tip tactical nuke when your opponent has drafted a doctrine to go for punitive retaliation with nuclear weapons to inflict damage unacceptable to the aggressor after any nuclear attack on its forces or nation?
> People here are talking about a gravity bomb with sub kiloton yield if i am not wrong and it qualifies to be a tactical nuke which Pakistan has never tested it. Rest of the news is to celebrate a Hatf series BM with 60 KM range (less than 70 km hatf I) with a flight time of 1.3~ mins, gaining altitude less then 30 km with unknown accuracy, given a armoured column is moving with situational awareness about everything taking off from Pakistani side.
> my two cents


 
Your two cents are worth crap..
Whats the average speed of an armored column?.. 500kph??
Or does it use star trek transporters to move here and there.
Somebody is high on wikipedia.

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## The Deterrent

ynmian said:


> what is the meaning of a 60km range missile with nuclear capability. u know what i mean. if you detonate a nuclear bomb 60km away, you will also be a victim of that nuke because u r just 60km away form that blast


 
Yr please go to wikipedia or something else....
we have repeatedly said that a sub-kiloton WH cannot harm anything 60km away instantaneously...one can also fire it from 15km and scoot away...the Davy Crockett could take out a target 4 km away without harming the user...only the radiation in the atmosphere will be a threat but after 3-4 hours...


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## Rafi

............


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## JonAsad

this is a suicide missile- must be used as a last resort only-


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## Rafi

Glorious Resolve said:


> this is a suicide missile- must be used as a last resort only-


 
Tactical nukes come under a completely different doctrine compared to strategic weapons.

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------




Glorious Resolve said:


> this is a suicide missile- must be used as a last resort only-


 
Tactical nukes come under a completely different doctrine compared to strategic weapons.

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## newdelhinsa

Santro said:


> Your two cents are worth crap..
> Whats the average speed of an armored column?.. 500kph??
> Or does it use star trek transporters to move here and there.
> Somebody is high on wikipedia.



With Range 60 km are you going to hit it when the column is on your territory? If not then column will be moving at 35-40km/hr. 
1.3 mins =0.6 km. oops you missed by 600 meters and now wait for punitive nuclear retaliation. I hope you know how an armored column is arrayed

There are many conventional bombs which can melt armoured column BTW.


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## Rafi

newdelhinsa said:


> With Range 60 km are you going to hit it when the column is on your territory? If not then column will be moving at 35-40km/hr.
> 1.3 mins =0.6 km. oops you missed by 600 meters and now wait for punitive nuclear retaliation. I hope you know how an armored column is arrayed
> 
> There are many conventional bombs which can melt armoured column BTW.


 
That is what Intelligence is for.


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## Tiger Awan

newdelhinsa said:


> With Range 60 km are you going to hit it when the column is on your territory? If not then column will be moving at 35-40km/hr.
> 1.3 mins =0.6 km. oops you missed by 600 meters and now wait for punitive nuclear retaliation. I hope you know how an armored column is arrayed
> 
> There are many conventional bombs which can melt armoured column BTW.


 
Pakistani scientist and engineers are grateful to you. they couldn't perform these calculations themselves

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## MM_Haider

newdelhinsa said:


> With Range 60 km are you going to hit it when the column is on your territory? If not then column will be moving at 35-40km/hr.
> 1.3 mins =0.6 km. oops you missed by 600 meters and now wait for punitive nuclear retaliation. I hope you know how an armored column is arrayed
> 
> There are many conventional bombs which can melt armoured column BTW.


 
Why are we just focusing on one point that Nasr will always be fired with with nuclear deterrence.. guys.. Nasr is nuclear capable.. understood but it could be fired without it... so rule of thumb; if enemy is in your terretory.. fire but dont nuke.. if enemy is in their own territory adancing towards yours, you have both the options.. and thirdly if you manage to davance into the enemy's area.. nuke and run but dont forget to blast the launcher prior to running..


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## mjnaushad

newdelhinsa said:


> With Range 60 km are you going to hit it when the column is on your territory? If not then column will be moving at 35-40km/hr.
> 1.3 mins =0.6 km. oops you missed by 600 meters and now wait for punitive nuclear retaliation. I hope you know how an armored column is arrayed
> 
> There are many conventional bombs which can melt armoured column BTW.




Ever wondered how Aziz Bhatti called successful strikes on ADVANCING tanks....surely he did some calculation before calling a barrage. And the ROCKET (for Indians) and Missile ( For rest of the world) is guided so possibly able to change direction and target.

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## Manticore

while reading this thread, i dont know but i remembered one great post by sir muradk-- although its of militery aviation thread, but it gave a new meaning to the phrase, waiving the ''white flag'' in frustration of the failure of cold start


i dont want to derail the thread even further than before-- but just enjoy the origin of the white flag here..



Muradk said:


> The First answer to the Thread, Every Fighter Sqd In PAF has planes ready for ADA, we call them Hot planes. They can be 2, 3, or even 4 on standby.
> Depends on the area and situation.
> Second the Indian Minister.
> 
> If I am not wrong he was the interior Minister of Punjab and he decided to see the war first hand so he takes a ride in a chopper with 3 of his advisers in it. During the flight they see 3 sabers, we were comming back from a mission and salim was the only one with a few rounds in him So we circled around and told the ATC that we see a private chopper and we immidiatly got a reply do not shoot a civilian Helicopter and we all start talking should we shoot it down or not, while we are discussing it and constantly telling the ATC that we cant here you, we see white Dhoties comming out of the chopper  telling us that they are friendly, now we all are laughing are gutts out looking at the white Dhoties, while all this fun is going on we get a call Gnats in the area and we start looking around , Salim Gahur says Gnats at 9 o-clock climb and return to base. To our Horror the Gnat pilot shot the chopper head on and the chopper blew up like a gernade. There were Indian Soilders on the ground at that time who witnessed it .
> 
> The very Next day Our Sqd Cmd calls us and tells us that the foreign office logged a complaint that it was a cowardly act by PAF for shooting down a Unarmed Chopper.
> Just a small event I wanted to share.




if indians think our first use policy is cowardly, well i guess the indians are no less aswell...

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Here is how I see this being utilized - if the system is meant to prevent implementation of "Cold Start' or anything similar to it, the tactical nuclear warhead would come into play in case of Indian IBG's breaking through and capturing Pakistani territory (as the common understanding of Cold Start implies). In such a situation, the invading Indian IBG's, and their supply lines into Pakistan, would be targeted with artillery, mortars, MBRL's, A2G, and, finally, the 'tactical nuke'. The point of the 'tactical nuke', IMO, will not be 'radiation' (which is why the NBC protection aspect is not significant), but the actual kinetic impact of the explosions of perhaps several of these warheads on Indian troops and equipment that have been 'softened up' already by conventional munitions.

The only way to avoid this, for the Indian forces invading Pakistan, would be if the IAF had complete air dominance and was carrying out A2G attacks against the mobile launchers. But since the whole idea behind Cold Start is 'rapid action and surprise', and given the fact that the PAF is getting to the point where it will in fact be able to hold back the IAF for weeks even (if not go on the offensive), Indian formations (and their supply lines) inside Pakistan will be largely without any air cover, and hence exposed to the whole range of Pakistani munitions mentioned earlier.


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## Rafi

It is basically an option to stop a sneak attack which is unlikely given the level of intelligence employed to monitor major formations.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Rafi said:


> It is basically an option to stop a sneak attack which is unlikely given the level of intelligence employed to monitor major formations.


 Right - I doubt that Indian IBG's under Cold Start would be able to to accomplish anything even close to what the doctrine envisions (The US perhaps is the only nation that could, and only because they possess the air power to neutralize the PAF in a prolonged conflict). But now there is an additional deterrent in that Pakistan can bring a very high amount of firepower to bear on a relatively small concentration of enemy forces on its territory, and potentially obliterate them, without having to dedicate an equivalent number of troops or resources (relative to the Indian IBG's) to the effort.

And since the use of tactical nukes would be on Pakistani soil and against enemy combatants, Indian decision makers would be hard pressed to retaliate (and justify) with a nuclear strike (tactical or otherwise) of their own on Pakistani soil, since that would then invite similar retaliation from Pakistan and potentially escalate into a full fledged nuclear exchange.

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## Rafi

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right - I doubt that Indian IBG's under Cold Start would be able to to accomplish anything even close to what the doctrine envisions (The US perhaps is the only nation that could, and only because they possess the air power to neutralize the PAF in a prolonged conflict). But now there is an additional deterrent in that Pakistan can bring a very high amount of firepower to bear on a relatively small concentration of enemy forces on its territory, and potentially obliterate them, without having to dedicate an equivalent number of troops or resources (relative to the Indian IBG's) to the effort.
> 
> And since the use of tactical nukes would be on Pakistani soil and against enemy combatants, Indian decision makers would be hard pressed to retaliate (and justify) with a nuclear strike (tactical or otherwise) of their own on Pakistani soil, since that would then invite similar retaliation from Pakistan and potentially escalate into a full fledged nuclear exchange.


 
100% right


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## nightcrawler

@Indians
ARTHUR isn't good for quasi ballistic trajectories simply because even in the terminal stages the projectile can vary its coarse; because the propulsion unit is still ON WORK!!
@Pakistanis
I am unfortunate to say that are you humans...we are discussing the prospects of a nuclear [I don't care mini/macro] nike upon India...We must realise this from our side will be of the gravest of all mistakes...as we van now no more rely on our nukes as mere deterrent furthermore nuclear hazards can play havoc with our soldier lives. Like I said previously we must use cluster type ammunitions or kinetic rods which are more lethal both to the armour or the infantry...& yet HUMANE


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

nightcrawler said:


> @Pakistanis
> I am unfortunate to say that are you humans...we are discussing the prospects of a nuclear [I don't care mini/macro] nike upon India...We must realise this from our side will be of the gravest of all mistakes...as we van now no more rely on our nukes as mere deterrent furthermore nuclear hazards can play havoc with our soldier lives. Like I said previously we must use cluster type ammunitions or kinetic rods which are more lethal both to the armour or the infantry...& yet HUMANE


What is more humane about being killed by a landmine, cluster bomb, artillery, MBRL, mortal shell etc. vs a small tactical nuclear explosion? 

IIRC, radiation, or damage through radiation, is not the goal of a tactical nuke - it is the ability to deliver a very large amount of explosive power through a single warhead on a small area. So whether it is an artillery shell or a Tac. Nuke, the idea is the same - to neutralize the enemy through firepower.

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## Rafi

Nuke is comparably more humane - the enemy soldiers would be vaporised or die immediately due to radiation.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Glorious Resolve said:


> this is a suicide missile- must be used as a last resort only-


 
Its not suicide.......the atomic yield is low....... i mean... it will only effect the place where it falls ...... 60 km away............. Thus eliminating its target not the guys who launched it................. coz the radiation wont catch up to them.......................Thts why its called a miniature nuke.


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## mautkimaut

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right - I doubt that Indian IBG's under Cold Start would be able to to accomplish anything even close to what the doctrine envisions (The US perhaps is the only nation that could, and only because they possess the air power to neutralize the PAF in a prolonged conflict). But now there is an additional deterrent in that Pakistan can bring a very high amount of firepower to bear on a relatively small concentration of enemy forces on its territory, and potentially obliterate them, without having to dedicate an equivalent number of troops or resources (relative to the Indian IBG's) to the effort.
> 
> And since the use of tactical nukes would be on Pakistani soil and against enemy combatants, Indian decision makers would be hard pressed to retaliate (and justify) with a nuclear strike (tactical or otherwise) of their own on Pakistani soil, since that would then invite similar retaliation from Pakistan and potentially escalate into a full fledged nuclear exchange.


 indian doctrine clearly states that any nuclear attack on India or its soldiers whether in its own territory or outside would be treated as a Nuclear strike on India and would invite massive retaliation.


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## flameboard

Bhim said:


> The Iron Dome will come in handy for just these kind of missiles..


 It won't the Iron dome will have to be set up in Pakistan for that or very close to the border. This is made so that if the Indians rush onto Pakistani land, Pakistan will destroy the Indians on its soil using those missiles, that's why these have a shorter range than would be expected. Seeing as thats its primary use which is why it will be equipped on a vehicle that can move immediately after deployment to avoid getting hit by the return of fire to the same site it was launched from. Pakistan's new missile aimed at India's 'Cold Start' doctrine: Experts - The Economic Times


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## Imran Khan

mautkimaut said:


> indian doctrine clearly states that any nuclear attack on India or its soldiers whether in its own territory or outside would be treated as a Nuclear strike on India and would invite massive retaliation.


 
so you have to attack and come inside pakistan and its our duty to welcome you with roses ?stay inside india and no one will attack on you.

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## flameboard

*DAZ HOW WE ROLL!!!*







N-Bazooka






Vespa Bazooka


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## nightcrawler

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> What is more humane about being killed by a landmine, cluster bomb, artillery, MBRL, mortal shell etc. vs a small tactical nuclear explosion?
> 
> IIRC, radiation, or damage through radiation, is not the goal of a tactical nuke - it is the ability to deliver a very large amount of explosive power through a single warhead on a small area. So whether it is an artillery shell or a Tac. Nuke, the idea is the same - to neutralize the enemy through firepower.


 
Sir I would disagree; the propose of any weapon isn't killing; rather its the job effectively done!! The HE fragmentation warhead will be more effective than any nuke; even a shielded tank [if you but know] is the best regarded vehicle in case of nuclear fallout...plus it will inflict damage not only to armour & infantry but our deterrence edge willnt be lost...ths is the biggest point


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## Dazzler

Some friends brought an argument to stop NASR with ABMs. This is far from possible for two reasons

1. It is a high supersonic highly agile missile with high accuracy.

2. Due to its battle field usage, it has maintained a short range of 60 km which will prove to be extremely difficult for ABM system to shoot it down and being a QUASI missile that does not go into atmosphere it will be as difficult as hitting a bullet with an arrow (not arrow missile by the way).

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## nightcrawler

In my observation...




Look at the video above especially the 15-20 seconds & you will see abrupt maneuvers of the said missile. One thing you may have noticed is the absence of Gas dynamic control which is usually present in Russian originated systems...see this 




above is based on Smerch system; notice the small explosions besides the nose cone; something missing in Nasr launch photo as well as video. I think NESCOM has opted for gimbled thrust. Compare the similarities I have outlined above with this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gimbaled_thrust_animation.gif


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## Dazzler

nightcrawler said:


> Sir I would disagree; the propose of any weapon isn't killing; rather its the job effectively done!! The HE fragmentation warhead will be more effective than any nuke; even a shielded tank [if you but know] is the best regarded vehicle in case of nuclear fallout...plus it will inflict damage not only to armour & infantry but our deterrence edge willnt be lost...ths is the biggest point


 
I guess you are missing the big picture. The presence of battlefield nuclear very short range highly agile guided missile will make the opposition think many many times before commencing the Cold Start from now on. This weapon will ensure they remain less ambitious in future and will help us avoid any surgical strike notion.

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## nightcrawler

nabil_05 said:


> I guess you are missing the big picture. The* presence of battlefield nuclear* very short range highly agile guided missile will make the opposition think many many times before commencing the Cold Start from now on. This weapon will ensure they remain less ambitious in future and will help us avoid any surgical strike notion.


 
Battlefield presence of nukes can't be regarded detergency in the least, sir. Deterrence *must be strategic* in nature so as to keep the element of surprise more clandestine which makes your assumption justified:


> opposition think many many times before commencing the Cold Star


Plus the presence of such weapons within the battlefield will much strain the opposition & the probability of nuclear fallout will be much more enhanced


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## foxhound

ref:Pakistan Tests 'Nuke-Capable' Short-Range Missile - Defense News

Pakistan Tests 'Nuke-Capable' Short-Range Missile
By USMAN ANSARI 
Published: 20 Apr 2011 16:53 ISLAMABAD - Pakistan yesterday conducted the first official test firing of what it described as a short-range surface-to-surface multitube ballistic missile.

An Inter-Services Press Release statement said the Nasr (Victory) missile could be tipped with "nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy," therefore confirming Pakistan's long-assumed tactical nuclear weapons program.

The statement also described it as a "quick response system [which] addresses the need to deter evolving threats."

Nasr is the ninth in the Pakistani Hatf (Vengeance) series of missile systems. Images, and film released by ISPR and Associated Press of Pakistan show it to be a two-round system carried on the Chinese-origin 8x8 high-mobility truck chassis used by the Army's AR1A/A100-E 300mm Multiple Launch Rocket System.

Haris Khan, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said Nasr answers India's Cold Start doctrine.

"Hatf-IX is a perfect answer to the Indian concept of Cold Start," Khan said. "It establishes that tactical nuclear weapons will be deployed very close to its border with minimum reaction time to counter any armor or mechanized thrust by an enemy into its Pakistani territory."

The Nasr test shows Pakistan can build small nuclear warheads for all kinds of delivery platforms, said Mansoor Ahmed, a lecturer at Quaid-e-Azam University here who specializes in nonconventional weapons and missiles.

*"Theoretically, 1 kilogram of weapons-grade plutonium boosted with 4-5 grams of tritium gives a 10-20KT yield, provided the trigger is sophisticated," Ahmed said. "However, the diameter size of Nasr suggests that the warhead would be less than 1 kilogram, and would be of sub-kiloton range, suitable for battlefield use and could be a fission boosted sub-kiloton fission device."Pakistan will now "not accept any cap in plutonium production in the foreseeable future," he said.*
Similar in concept to the Russian Iskander, the Nasr has a much shorter range: 60 kilometers, which Ahmed said could be extended.

ref:http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1709352.ece
Pakistan tests short-range ballistic missile
Anita Joshua 
Share · Comment · print · T+ Pakistan on Tuesday claimed to have successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed short range surface-to-surface multi-tube ballistic missile &#8216;Hatf IX' (NASR). 

Viewed by some strategic analysts as Pakistan's answer to India's Cold Start Doctrine, NASR has a range of 60 km and &#8220;shoot-and-scoot'' nuclear delivery capability. 

The Inter-Services Public Relations said NASR's quick response system addressed need to deter evolving threats. Addressing a gathering at the undisclosed site of the test, Director-General of the Strategic Plans Division Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said the successful flight marked a milestone in consolidating Pakistan's strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. 

Lt. Gen (retd.) Kidwai pointed out that in the hierarchy of military operations, NASR provided Pakistan with short range missile capability in addition to the already available medium and long range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory. 

Welcoming the test, security analyst Shireen Mazari said in a statement that Pakistan had now acquired tactical nuclear capability with a low yield that could be used in the battlefield. &#8220;It will act as a deterrent against use of mechanised conventional land forces. This was essential in the wake of India's adventurist war-fighting doctrine formulations, which envisaged the use of rapid deployment of armed brigades and divisions in surprise and rapid attacks.'' 

*Referring to India's Cold Start Doctrine, Ms. Mazari said, &#8220;India has always felt that Pakistan had a loophole in terms of lacking short range battlefield nuclear weapons, which it could exploit on the assumption that it made little sense for Pakistan to respond to such conventional attacks with strategic nuclear weapons. With NASR, Pakistan has plugged that loophole. Indian dreams of a limited war against Pakistan through its Cold Start strategy have been laid to rest. This will allow for a reassertion of a stable nuclear deterrence in the region.'' *


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## Dazzler

They say you need to possess the deadliest weapon to avoid the war and this is where i was heading. Both countries know the result of a nuclear fallout. An inevitable destruction. Coming back to topic, NASR has given us multiple options and the argument of "why NASR when we got hold of A-100?, the answer is, one is a guided missile able to avoid the danger of SAM and the other is a mild guidance equipped rocket so both cannot be compared despite having similar objectives.

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## irfan1173

AoA
Congratulations to all those involved in developing this. 

People are doing a mistake of looking at cold start in isolation. The purpose of cold start is nothing different that what the purpose of strike corps are on both sides. For whatever reasons if india decided to attack us its a full fledged war. cold start is just a fancy term for what the strike corps supposed to do. Seeing the back drop of nuclear weapons in the subcontinent if that doesn't stop India from waging war, rest assured a tactical nuclear weapon will not stop them. In a nutshell war will be decided keeping the nuclear weapons in mind but not whether they are tactical or strategic in nature. 

How the enemy will retaliate is anybody's guess. But to feel that since we will use this on our territory so India wont retaliate is a stupid thought. Had a candid discussion with a person in know, simple point is either you go all the way or nothing. There is no middle ground.


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## foxhound

ref:Pakistan's new missile aimed at India's 'Cold Start' doctrine: Experts - The Economic Times

20 Apr, 2011, 06.12PM IST,PTI 
Pakistan's new missile aimed at India's 'Cold Start' doctrine: Experts

Read more on »Pakistan|Islamabad|India|ISLAMABAD: Pakistan's new short-range nuclear-capable Hatf-9 missile is primarily aimed at deterring India's purported Cold Start military doctrine that envisages quick thrusts by small integrated battle groups in the event of hostilities, experts and analysts here have claimed. 

The Hatf-9 or Nasr, described as a missile with a range of *60 km and designed to carry "nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy", *was tested for the first time at an undisclosed location yesterday. 

The missile will be deployed with a *mobile multi-barrel launch system that has "shoot and scoot attributes", or the ability to fire at a target and immediately relocate to another position to avoid enemy counter-fire. *
The new system is primarily aimed at deterring India's purported Cold Start doctrine, under which the Indian army has allegedly created integrated battle groups comprising infantry and mechanised elements that could be quickly mobilised and used for launching rapid thrusts into Pakistani territory in the event of hostilities, according to an analyst who did not want to be named. 

The Indian army has always denied existence of any such doctrine. 

The *Hatf-9 missile system is a tactical nuclear weapons and "low-yield battlefield deterrent" capable of inflicting damage on mechanised forces such as armed brigades and divisions,* military sources told The Express Tribune newspaper. 

With the development of the *Hatf-9's shoot and scoot capability, "Indian planners will now be deterred from considering options of limited war",* the military sources said. 

The Pakistani military had formulated its "new war fighting concept" in response to India's purported Cold Start doctrine, the Dawn newspaper quoted unnamed sources as saying. 

The* development of the Hatf-9 is also being seen as a major achievement in terms of miniaturisation of nuclear warheads*, the daily reported. 

Another analyst, who did not want to be named, told PTI that weapons like the Hatf-9 missile will limit the space for "limited war under a nuclear umbrella". 

However, the analyst noted that the military may have to use such a system within Pakistani territory in the event of an Indian thrust and this could have adverse consequences, such as nuclear fallout or the radiation hazard from an atomic blast.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

Zindabad Pakistan.................. now I gotta get back to working.


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## F-16_Falcon

I am not happy with 60 km nuclear missile. increase the range to *200 km. *


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

F-16_Falcon said:


> I am not happy with 60 km nuclear missile. increase the range to *200 km. *


 
It is a tactical system hence the short range. I am sure they will tweak and enhance it for better performance and more tubes. For faster movement I think 4 would be max.


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## Thorough Pro

nightcrawler said:


> @Indians
> ARTHUR isn't good for quasi ballistic trajectories simply because even in the terminal stages the projectile can vary its coarse; because the propulsion unit is still ON WORK!!
> @Pakistanis
> I am unfortunate to say that are you humans...we are discussing the prospects of a nuclear [I don't care mini/macro] nike upon India...We must realise this from our side will be of the gravest of all mistakes...as we van now no more rely on our nukes as mere deterrent furthermore nuclear hazards can play havoc with our soldier lives. Like I said previously we must use cluster type ammunitions or kinetic rods which are more lethal both to the armour or the infantry...& yet HUMANE


 
Though I agree with most parts of your post, but there is nothing "Humane" about war, your objective is to completely and totally destroy the enemy foces ASAP with the start of hostilities to avoid any such attempt by the enemy.


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## Thorough Pro

Markus said:


> Also, is it possible for India to locate this system with fire finding radars ?


 
Only if they survive the attack.


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## Pak_Sher

Thorough Pro said:


> Though I agree with most parts of your post, but there is nothing "Humane" about war, your objective is to completely and totally destroy the enemy foces ASAP with the start of hostilities to avoid any such attempt by the enemy.


 
Everything is fair in love and war. With a shorter range and a large warhead can destroy advancing forces. Also a pre-emptive strike with Nasr on deployed forces can cause havoc on the ground. Previous versions of Hatf-1 and Hatf-3 can also be combined to pose a solid offense. Any country posing a threat to attack Pakistan deserves no mercy and the work "Humane" does not make any sense in war scenarios.


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## Thorough Pro

Markus said:


> I still dont agree with you.
> 
> You have made this system alright.
> 
> But usage of a nucleared Nasr on Indian troops even on ur soil will require lot of guts.
> 
> You have to keep in mind of the response that may come if u guys ever plan to go through "that" road.


 
Your argument reminds me of a joke which goes like this,

A man is sitting on the chest of another man on the ground and punching him accross the face and crying out loud at the same time, a passerby asks him the reason for crying while he is on top of the other, the man replies I am crying for what he is going to do to me when he gets up.

No Sir we are not like that man, God forbid, if the time comes our first offensive will ensure that the enemy NEVER gets up, we will not hold or think about our first strike for what the enemy might do, you know why? because we know what our first strike will do.

For Pakistan there is no such thing as "Limited Strike" or "Surgical Punitive Strike", any such misadventure is an act of war, a full fledge war and we will give a befitting response as per our war doctrine.


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## Birruna

Thorough Pro said:


> Your argument reminds me of a joke which goes like this,
> 
> A man is sitting on the chest of another man on the ground and punching him accross the face and crying out loud at the same time, a passerby asks him the reason for crying while he is on top of the other, the man replies I am crying for what he is going to do to me when he gets up.
> 
> No Sir we are not like that man, God forbid, if the time comes our first offensive will ensure that the enemy NEVER gets up, we will not hold or think about our first strike for what the enemy might do, you know why? because we know what our first strike will do.
> 
> For Pakistan there is no such thing as "Limited Strike" or "Surgical Punitive Strike", any such misadventure is an act of war, a full fledge war and we will give a befitting response as per our war doctrine.


 
Good example, bad context. Why is the man sitting on another man's chest in the first case anyway? Most likely the guy on the ground did something amazingly stupid and thinks he can get away with it.

I think the narrative by Shireen Mazri is Pakistan's usual way of announcing a new weapon they have decided to deploy in their own sensational low key way.

If at all India decides to factor in Hatf-IX the response will be to bring along their own tact nukes to the battleground some sort of counter deterrent. Both Pakistan's and later India's tact nukes will fall on Pakistani soil. I can live with that.


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## somebozo

mautkimaut said:


> indian doctrine clearly states that any nuclear attack on India or its soldiers whether in its own territory or outside would be treated as a Nuclear strike on India and would invite massive retaliation.



So you expect indian soldiers to cross with border with all pomp and trumpet and Pakistanis to stand and watch the ceremony?? Hello, wake up..this isnt bollywood..which law in the world states that a country should standby and watch being invaded..and which law actually secures your soldiers from attacks who are standing in the enermy terriotry during war? Watch less bollywood please.



flameboard said:


> *DAZ HOW WE ROLL!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N-Bazooka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vespa Bazooka


 hahahaahaha...we need to find some dada jee for driving that vespa! May be Anupan Kheer can make "crossing the border in 60 seconds" feat in that!

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## Thorough Pro

Birruna said:


> Good example, bad context. Why is the man sitting on another man's chest in the first case anyway?
> *Most likely the guy on the ground did something amazingly stupid and thinks he can get away with it.*


 
Exactly! I hope you understand.


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## rajusri

Thorough Pro said:


> Only if they survive the attack.


 
How? The radar detects it first. It has to come close to 60 km to launch it. There will be many radars.


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## lkozhi

THe idea is to station strike corps well near border so that in case of war they gets within enemy border quickly and hence pakistan if it plans to use this missile will have to use it on its own land. That means pakistan bombing its own land with a nuclear weapon. Even if we assume pakistans troops give staunch resistance this weapon cannot be used as even they will die if this is used.


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## Thorough Pro

Intresting and emotional discussion so far. All Indian members here are more focussed along the lines that Pakistan will have to think before using any neuclear wepon in response to any act of war by Indian forces, but they are forgetting a very simple thing. 

Pakistan has a defensive strategy, It's India which has been thinking outloud about "Surgical Strikes" and "Limited War". Pakistan has made it very clear that no such thing exists for Pakistan, any act of aggression incluing crossing of international border or LOC will be regarded as an act of full fledge war and responded accordingly.

Now the "Thinking" that the indian members here are focussing on has to be done by India, Pakistan has already decided and disclosed that it will respod with full force.

Think what you like, but knowing that on more than one occassions fully prepared and deployed Indain forces despite having huge numerical and technological advantage did not dare cross the border is a very clear sign of successful Pakistani strategy and detterence value of its war machinery.

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## nightcrawler

nabil_05 said:


> They say you need to possess the deadliest weapon to avoid the war and this is where i was heading. Both countries know the result of a nuclear fallout. An inevitable destruction. Coming back to topic, NASR has given us multiple options and the argument of "why NASR when we got hold of A-100?, the answer is, one is a guided missile able to avoid the danger of SAM and the other is a mild guidance equipped rocket so both cannot be compared *despite having similar objectives*.


Sir I don't think they will have similar objectives either...
A MLRS is a rapid heavy barrage system to defeat enemy forces when the group up for an attack or when they group up to defend from an attack.They are for area targets so* precision is not important*, but *coverage is*. That is why the Smerch has INS and gyro stabilisation in each rockets, not so the rocket hits the target exactly but so that the volley stays close together to make sure the coverage of bomblets or warheads or munitions is kept over the target area rather than spread randomly.
Our ATACM system [though lacking in range for now] will be used for precision attacks & *not for coverage or POUNDING purpose*



Thorough Pro said:


> Though I agree with most parts of your post, but there is nothing "Humane" about war, your objective is to completely and totally destroy the enemy foces ASAP with the start of hostilities to avoid any such attempt by the enemy.


We are destroying them even with fragmentation warhead, sir.But killing like I said isn't the ONLY motive but the effectiveness of the weapon. Things for infantry were bad when they used depleted uranium rounds in A-10 & we are now talking about full scale nuclear warhead...


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## TaimiKhan

nightcrawler said:


> Congratulations & Congratulations...i don't know if I be a fortune teller but day before this thread I wrote:
> 
> ...& perhaps my wishes come true
> Taimikhan thnx for giving technical info..however I have some reserves regrading Iskander which isn't like a common Quasi-ballistic as it can intercept the aerial threats as well..& not like typical ATACMs wich are destined for what I say *land superiority*!!
> Our system is a mirror image of Russian Tochka system & not Smerch as was written by an Indian in above posts:
> SS-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> For precision puposes this system will surely come in handy/ Armed not with nuclear [I am against it] but fragmentation warheads it deliver serious damage to the advancing army especially tanks regiments...
> Our MRLS systems which are mature enough must be used at the frontlines & then for reload scoot way in the meanwhile these systems can precisely attach the enemies counter-measuring regiments.
> One must be careful that such systems ( ATACMs) really are prone to be attacked because within battlefield their smoke alone will produce enough visible signature...even more than an MLRS


 
Abdali missile is our SS-21 with 180KM range, while we have the Ghaznai also with around 300Km range. So, no worries for a missile for these ranges. What we lacked was something in the 100KM range, which is accurate, fast and highly mobile, that we get with the Nasr. If we can increase the range of Nasr to around 80Km or 100KM, its a very good system for delivering small tactical battlefield nuke to its target without getting into harms way. Most likely scenario for this missile would be delivery of nuke on advancing enemy forces within the our own territory. 

Yeah, what we can do is, using the technology from this one and the already gotten one through A-100 transfer, we should start having medium range of 60-80KM MBRL system. 122mm should be replaced now with a more advanced, accurate and longer range system, atleast 60KM to 80KM. And for longer range the A-100 to atleast 150KM range. 

The 30-40KM range can be covered through tube artillery, 60-80 with a medium-MBRL system and another 150KM long range-MBRL. 

An effective stopping power, plus for short range tactical nuke delivery, Nasr would be there.

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## KS

Santro said:


> In an all out scenario, you are gambling on the fact that the use of this weapon will bring a halt to the enemy's resolve, letting them know you are prepared to use nuclear weapons on your own soil.
> Which brings us to two scenario's again..
> 
> <..........>
> 
> 2. *It fails: the Enemy retaliates.*. then you either go into a tit for tat scenario.. or go all out..in which case you use everything you have. Ensuring your own complete utter destruction in the process, but taking the enemy with you.
> India's second strike will wipe out whatever is Pakistan(save balochistan and FATA maybe..ironic isnt it??).. but that second strike will save very little.. the horror of nuclear aftermath will leave India mangled, devastated.. and with a small chance of recovery. Since it is assumed in the circles that be. that any strike by Pakistan will include the essential resources as well.. especially those that involve water.


 
This is the point I'm saying. And in a case of reversal it is the Indian Public which is hawkish compared to the Govt and in case of a Pakistani first strike - the battlefield nukes as they call - there will be unbearable public,political and even military pressure on the ruling party to go on a retaliatory second strike as per our declared NFU doctrine - disproportionate and massive, even if pushes back our own development massively behind.


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## MZUBAIR

*New Pak missile to deter Indian war doctrine*

Pakistan's new short-range nuclear-capable Hatf-9 missile is primarily aimed at *deterring India's Cold Start military doctrine *that envisages quick thrusts by small integrated battle groups in the event of hostilities, experts and analysts here have claimed.

The Hatf-9 or Nasr, described as a missile with a range of 60 km and designed to carry "nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy", was tested for the first time at an undisclosed location on Tuesday.

The missile will be deployed with a mobile multi-barrel launch system that has "shoot and scoot attributes", or the ability to fire at a target and immediately relocate to another position to avoid enemy counter-fire.

*The new system is primarily aimed at deterring India's Cold Start doctrine, for which the Indian army has created integrated battle groups comprising infantry and mechanised elements that could be quickly mobilised and used for launching rapid thrusts into Pakistani territory in the event of hostilities, claimed an analyst who did not want to be named.*

The Hatf-9 missile system is a tactical nuclear weapons and "low-yield battlefield deterrent" capable of inflicting damage on mechanised forces such as armed brigades and divisions, military sources told The Express Tribune newspaper.

*With the development of the Hatf-9's shoot and scoot capability, "Indian planners will now be deterred from considering options of limited war", the military sources said.*

The development of the Hatf-9 is also being seen as a major achievement in terms of miniaturisation of nuclear warheads, the daily reported.

Another analyst, who did not want to be named, told PTI that weapons like the Hatf-9 missile will limit the space for "limited war under a nuclear umbrella".

However, the analyst noted that the military may have to use such a system within Pakistani territory in the event of an Indian thrust and this could have adverse consequences, such as nuclear fallout or the radiation hazard from an atomic blast.

In a statement issued after Tuesday's test, the Pakistani military said the Hatf-9 had been developed to "add deterrence value to Pakistan's strategic weapons development programme at shorter ranges".


*Source*


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## KS

Rafi said:


> Tactical nukes come under a completely different doctrine compared to strategic weapons.


 
and @ all who repeatedly use the terminology "Tactical Nuke" :-

There is *NOTHING* like Tactical or Strategic nukes in the context of declared Indian NFU doctrine. 

*Every* nuke, however small the yield may be, will be considered a nuclear first strike and will be replied in a manner as said in our NFU Doctrine.

If somebody thinks otherwise they are fooling themselves with meaningless terminologies.



MZUBAIR said:


> *New Pak missile to deter Indian war doctrine*


 
Another wannabe defence reporter who doesnt know what the hell he is writing. 

For starters there is no such thing called the Cold Start

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## mjnaushad

Karthic Sri said:


> There is *NOTHING* like Tactical or Strategic nukes in the context of declared Indian NFU doctrine.
> 
> *Every* nuke, however small the yield would be, will be considered a nuclear first strike and will be replied in a manner as said in our NFU Doctrine.
> 
> If somebody thinks otherwise they are fooling themselves with meaningless terminologies.
> 
> 
> 
> Another wannabe defence reporter who doesnt know what the hell he is writing.
> 
> For starters there is no such thing called the Cold Start


 
Few Months ago when i left every indian on every thread was saying " The cold war doctrine will takeover Pakistan in no time and we'll disable all your defence capabilities in just 48 hours and bla bla bla"


And now there is no such thing as Cold start... ROFL....

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## mjnaushad

Another Important thing to consider is that this as a short range missile (less than 300 KM) have chance to be exported to other countries..... (of course without nukes  )

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## KS

mjnaushad said:


> Few Months ago when i left every indian on every thread was saying " The cold war doctrine will takeover Pakistan in no time and we'll disable all your defence capabilities in just 48 hours and bla bla bla"
> 
> And now there is no such thing as Cold start... ROFL....


 
So do you believe these online Indians over the Indian Military ?

I would not.

You are free to believe anything friend, but as I said there is *nothing* Tactical or Strategic in the usage of nukes as per the declared Indian NFU. Everything is a nuke irrespective of its yield.


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## mjnaushad

Karthic Sri said:


> So do you believe these online Indians over the Indian Military ?
> 
> I would not.


 
But you guys do believe these online Pakistanis over Pakistan's Military and Govt when it suites you....


Its just a missile (rocket for Indians)... Don't worry.. Also i am surprised why is taking so long to call it copy of some other country's missile... Why are indians not fully following their SOP.

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## Areesh

mjnaushad said:


> Few Months ago when i left every indian on every thread was saying " The cold war doctrine will takeover Pakistan in no time and we'll disable all your defence capabilities in just 48 hours and bla bla bla"
> 
> 
> And now there is no such thing as Cold start... ROFL....


 
I have seen some senior Indian members debating with Pakistanis that this cold start is very much practical and can be implemented in future. And now no such thing as Cold start. Lolzzz.


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## KS

mjnaushad said:


> But you guys do believe these online Pakistanis over Pakistan's Military and Govt when it suites you....


 
We believe the online Pakistanis when they give credible sources to back their opinion and not just their opinion.

And the Indian Army has NEVER confirmed that a phrase called Cold Start exists.



mjnaushad said:


> Its just a missile (rocket for Indians)... Don't worry.. Also i am surprised why is taking so long to call it copy of some other country's missile... Why are indians not fully following their SOP.


 
Does it matter if its a copy as long as it gets launched and explodes on the correct area ?


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## Bang Galore

Thorough Pro said:


> Pakistan has made it very clear that no such thing exists for Pakistan, any act of aggression incluing crossing of international border or LOC will be regarded as an act of full fledge war and responded accordingly.
> .


 
Makes no sense. If Pakistan's position is that *any* "act of aggression" will be regarded as full scale war, what exactly is the point of tactical/battlefield nukes since these effectively are based on hope of fighting a limited war albeit on a nuclear scale. Exploding nuclear weapons, whatever their size on* your own territory* is not as simple. Even if India played by your rules of keeping it limited, an immediate response would be to target large chunks of the Pakistani military in retaliatory nuclear strikes. How does that help you? Either way, its an act of suicide. If India responds as per doctrine, there will be complete annihilation & if it plays by your rules there will be considerable annihilation of your armed forces. At what point do you see yourselves as victorious?

Only a fool will believe that there are any victors in a war gone nuclear. There are only losers in such a situation.

There is an argument that many Pakistanis are prone to using. It is based on Pakistan's insistence that they will deploy nukes or that every act of aggression will be seen as declaration of full fledged war and they will respond accordingly. What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that in response to an Indian strike on "militant/terrorist camps, Pakistan will risk its whole country in its attempt at retaliation? What if India argues that a terrorist strike like 26/11 is an act of war? At what point will Pakistan decide that they are going to take it nuclear? Not an easy decision to make considering the Indian response. The importance of such an assertion lies in Indians believing it. If the bluff is called, Pakistan suddenly faces a situation of being seen as hollow boasters or face the terrifying decision of doing what was said knowing that it is automatic suicide. You also have to hope that India does not fully believe in Pakistan's stated intent to use nukes; a massive nuclear first strike might result otherwise. Pakistan's policy only works when the situation is obfuscated, i.e. that India is not sure whether or not Pakistan will carry out its threat. If India is sure either way, its essentially game over.


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## MZUBAIR

Bang Galore said:


> Makes no sense. If Pakistan's position is that *any* "act of aggression" will be regarded as full scale war, what exactly is the point of tactical/battlefield nukes since these effectively are based on hope of fighting a limited war albeit on a nuclear scale. Exploding nuclear weapons, whatever their size on* your own territory* is not as simple. Even if India played by your rules of keeping it limited, an immediate response would be to target large chunks of the Pakistani military in retaliatory nuclear strikes. How does that help you? Either way, its an act of suicide. If India responds as per doctrine, there will be complete annihilation & if it plays by your rules there will be considerable annihilation of your armed forces. At what point do you see yourselves as victorious?
> 
> Only a fool will believe that there are any victors in a war gone nuclear. There are only losers in such a situation.
> 
> There is an argument that many Pakistanis are prone to using. It is based on Pakistan's insistence that they will deploy nukes or that every act of aggression will be seen as declaration of full fledged war and they will respond accordingly. What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that in response to an Indian strike on "militant/terrorist camps, Pakistan will risk its whole country in its attempt at retaliation? What if India argues that a terrorist strike like 26/11 is an act of war? At what point will Pakistan decide that they are going to take it nuclear? Not an easy decision to make considering the Indian response. The importance of such an assertion lies in Indians believing it. If the bluff is called, Pakistan suddenly faces a situation of being seen as hollow boasters or face the terrifying decision of doing what was said knowing that it is automatic suicide. You also have to hope that India does not fully believe in Pakistan's stated intent to use nukes; a massive nuclear first strike might result otherwise. Pakistan's policy only works when the situation is obfuscated, i.e. that India is not sure whether or not Pakistan will carry out its threat. If India is sure either way, its essentially game over.


 
One thing I want to assre u abt the mood & the decision of Pakistan Gov, miltary forces, that they will straightly use Nukes *if War emposed*, and the attack would be extremely severe that there would be no chance of second attack. [Mark my words]. Similarl words used after Mumbai attacks. And ur miltary and Gov knew that Pakistan [GOP, Miltary] wasnt involve in Mumbai attacks


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## The Deterrent

Bang Galore said:


> *At what point will Pakistan decide that they are going to take it nuclear?*.


 
At the point when Pakistan is losing the war and has suffered great damage....


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## DESERT FIGHTER

AhaseebA said:


> At the point when Pakistan is losing the war and has suffered great damage....


 
I dnt think so...... tactical nukes r meant to be used in any condition...... U come into our territory....... U will turn into ashes.

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## KS

Bang Galore said:


> ...........
> The importance of such an assertion lies in Indians believing it. If the bluff is called, Pakistan suddenly faces a situation of being seen as hollow boasters or face the terrifying decision of doing what was said knowing that it is automatic suicide.
> .............



Exactly...the crux of the issue is whether the Ruling party at the centre is willing to call Pakistan's bluff at that time. Till now they have not and that doesnt mean they WILL NOT in the future.

Also I heard that the Indian NFU has been changed *from* "No-First-Use" *to* "No-First-Use Against Non Nuclear States". Donno how much is true.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I dnt think so...... tactical nukes r meant to be used in any condition...... U come into our territory....... U will turn into ashes.


 
There is no bloody thing called Tactical Nuke.


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## Paan Singh

MZUBAIR said:


> One thing I want to assre u abt the mood & the decision of Pakistan Gov, miltary forces, that they will straightly use Nukes *if War emposed*, and the attack would be extremely severe that there would be no chance of second attack. [Mark my words]. Similarl words used after Mumbai attacks. And ur miltary and Gov knew that Pakistan [GOP, Miltary] wasnt involve in Mumbai attacks


 
india cant fight with pakistan,even indian govt knows this.........they just can purchase weapons...india cant afford nuclear war against pakistan especially with china


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## Bang Galore

MZUBAIR said:


> One thing I want to assre u abt the mood & the decision of Pakistan Gov, miltary forces, that they will straightly use Nukes *if War emposed*, and the attack would be extremely severe that there would be no chance of second attack. [Mark my words]. Similarl words used after Mumbai attacks. And ur miltary and Gov knew that Pakistan [GOP, Miltary] wasnt involve in Mumbai attacks


 
Meaningless nonsense. If India decide to attack first with nuclear weapons (assuming that Pakistan was going to use nuclear weapons anyway), what would you do? Btw, our government believes that state organs of Pakistan were involved in the Mumbai attacks & the same was made clear by the Indian Home secretary.


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## Saifullah Sani




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## The Deterrent

Karthic Sri said:


> Exactly...the crux of the issue is whether the Ruling party at the centre is willing to call Pakistan's bluff at that time. Till now they have not and that doesnt mean they WILL NOT in the future.
> 
> Also I heard that the Indian NFU has been changed *from* "No-First-Use" *to* "No-First-Use Against Non Nuclear States". Donno how much is true.
> 
> 
> 
> *There is no bloody thing called Tactical Nuke.*


 
Tactical nuclear weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

in fact,the bloody thing exists...


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## The Deterrent

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I dnt think so...... tactical nukes r meant to be used in any condition...... U come into our territory....... U will turn into ashes.


 
No.....I was told that NASR will be used if IA occupies Pakistani territory...a condition applicable only when PA is losing the war...

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## Bang Galore

AhaseebA said:


> Tactical nuclear weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> in fact,the bloody thing exists...


 
Read it in the context that India's stated policy is to treat any use of a nuclear weapon against Indian assets as a first strike & respond accordingly. In that case there are no _"tactical nuclear weapons"_.


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## The Deterrent

Bang Galore said:


> Read it in the context that India's stated policy is to treat any use of a nuclear weapon against Indian assets as a first strike & respond accordingly. In that case there are no _"tactical nuclear weapons"_.


 
Got your point...


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## nightcrawler

@TaimiKhan
Thnx for replying


> If we can increase the range of Nasr to around 80Km or 100KM, its a very good system for delivering small tactical battlefield nuke to its target without getting into harms way.


This is the most important aspect that I am configuring right now. One must know that Indian Smerches are deadly @90km; so our Nasr must out-range this...with the expertise that we have exhibited it would be a couple of year to massively increase the range of Nasr by 3-4 times...yes we can do it


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## The Deterrent

NASR (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## TaimiKhan

nightcrawler said:


> @TaimiKhan
> Thnx for replying
> 
> This is the most important aspect that I am configuring right now. One must know that Indian Smerches are deadly @90km; so our Nasr must out-range this...with the expertise that we have exhibited it would be a couple of year to massively increase the range of Nasr by 3-4 times...yes we can do it


 
Indian Smerch with 90KM is already being over ranged by our A-100s. 

Remember Indian Smerch is a MBRL system, its a rocket not a missile, and ours in comparison is the A-100, which can be increased to 120+ even to 150KM range. 

Nasr is something different, its a SSM nor just a simple un-guided rocket.

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## KS

AhaseebA said:


> Tactical nuclear weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> in fact,the bloody thing exists...


 
I guess you should see that in context of the declared NFU doctrine of India.


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> I guess you should see that in context of the declared NFU doctrine of India.


 
Well it doesn't matter what is India's policy regarding nukes. The fact is Pakistan is going to use this weapon only when it will be invaded by it's neighbor. And once it is invaded and if the need arises Pakistan would simply give a damn to India's NFU doctrine and would use all it's weapons if it considers them necessary to be used. 

Wan to avoid such situation??? Stop dreaming about any kind of conflict with Pakistan.

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## Dazzler

Karthic Sri said:


> Another wannabe defence reporter who doesnt know what the hell he is writing.
> 
> For starters there is no such thing called the Cold Start


 
Wow that indeed is a big shift is it not? I myself have seen plenty of hypothetical scenarios on many a fora where Indian Armchair generals were discussing what to capture and how to bargain once they bring Pakistan on to her knees.

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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2011 


Defence Weekly 


*Pakistan test fires Hatf 9 missile*

Farhan Bokhari Correspondent - Islamabad


Pakistan test fired a Hatf 9 nuclear-capable surface-to-surface "multi-tube ballistic missile" on April 19, officials said.



Quoting military sources at Inter-Services Public Relations, the government-owned Associated Press of Pakistan (APP) said the missile has "a range of 60 km [and] carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats". 

Western defence officials in Islamabad said the Pakistan Army is developing short-range missiles as it does not have the financial resources to match India's force development plans. 

"Nuclear weapons is an area where Pakistan feels it can create a deterrence against India by having the right mix of missiles," one western defence official said. 


 reported on 4 March that Pakistan conducted a successful test firing of its indigenously developed Hatf 7 (Babur) cruise missile on 10 February. The Hatf 7, which looks similar in configuration to the US RGM-109 Tomahawk Block 3, is designed to carry what the Pakistan Ministry of Defence has described as "strategic and conventional warheads" to a range of 600 km. 

Pakistan has also successfully test-fired the low-altitude, air-launched Hatf 8 cruise missile, which has a range of 350 km.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Well it doesn't matter what is India's policy regarding nukes. The fact is Pakistan is going to use this weapon only when it will be invaded by it's neighbor. *And once it is invaded and if the need arises Pakistan would simply give a damn to India's NFU doctrine and would use all it's weapons if it considers them necessary to be used. *



And that is exactly what I said - if you want to use your nukes better use Shaheens/Ghauruis and their bigger payloads rather than the so called "Tactical Nukes" because anyway the Indian retaliation will be Massive and disproportionate.



Areesh said:


> Wan to avoid such situation??? Stop dreaming about any kind of conflict with Pakistan.


 
Reposting Bangalore's post;



Bang Galore said:


> There is an argument that many Pakistanis are prone to using. It is based on Pakistan's insistence that they will deploy nukes or that every act of aggression will be seen as declaration of full fledged war and they will respond accordingly. What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that in response to an Indian strike on "militant/terrorist camps, Pakistan will risk its whole country in its attempt at retaliation? What if India argues that a terrorist strike like 26/11 is an act of war? At what point will Pakistan decide that they are going to take it nuclear? Not an easy decision to make considering the Indian response. *The importance of such an assertion lies in Indians believing it. If the bluff is called, Pakistan suddenly faces a situation of being seen as hollow boasters or face the terrifying decision of doing what was said knowing that it is automatic suicide.* .





nabil_05 said:


> Wow that indeed is a big shift is it not? I myself have seen plenty of hypothetical scenarios on many a fora where *Indian Armchair generals* were discussing what to capture and how to bargain once they bring Pakistan on to her knees.


 
There you go - the answer is in your post.


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## Safriz

Time to build hydrogen bomba....Will come handy to deal with any disproportionate response from any enemy.

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## Dazzler

@ Karthik Sri

How convenient for you to say that! You forgot to mention on what basis, those Armchair generals were making those assumptions? There does exist the Doctrine and this is a known fact. Just type "Cold Start" in google and see the results. I can do that for you if you feel uncomfortable.

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## KS

nabil_05 said:


> How convenient for you to say that! You forgot to mention on what basis, those Armchair generals were making those assumptions? *There does exist the Doctrine and this is a known fact. *Just type "Cold Start" in google and see the results. I can do that for you if you feel uncomfortable.


 
Thats not a fact but rather your assumption that it is a fact.

Indian Army has never confirmed its presence and the Indian Political Establishment has vehemently denied it.

Also the point is EVEN for arguments sake, if there exists a Cold Start and if Pakistan uses this "Tac Nuke" on it, then it will not serve any purpose as it will just invite an assured,disproportionate retaliatory strike from India.

Congrats on getting the Blue Color.


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## Dazzler

Let me start then... Lets see if it really exists or not because if it does not than we have wasted so much time and money on NASR 

INDIAS NEW COLD START WAR DOCTRINE STRATEGICALLY REVIEWED

INDIAS NEW COLD START WAR DOCTRINE STRATEGICALLY REVIEWED - 

belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf 

ibnlive.in.com/news/army-may...cold-start.../80160-3-1.html - 

blogs.reuters.com/.../india-pakistan-war-games-and-cold-start/ -

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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> And that is exactly what I said - if you want to use your nukes better use Shaheens/Ghauruis and their bigger payloads rather than the so called "Tactical Nukes" because anyway the Indian retaliation will be Massive and disproportionate.


 
Well again our response would be limited to annihilating the invading army and if the invader backs off after we use this missile then we are fine with that. But if the invader doesn't want to compromise on it's stupidity and after invading Pakistan with conventional weapons,wants to retaliate with nuking cities, we would return the pleasure in the same manner. Our attack would be in response to Indian provocations. You invade our land, we would use tactical nukes, you want to nuke our cities we will do the same to you. We would neither invade India nor use strategic nukes in the first place. Hope you got it now.

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## KS

Areesh said:


> Well again our response would be limited to annihilating the invading army and if the invader backs off after we use this missile then we are fine with that. But if the invader doesn't want to compromise on it's stupidity and after invading Pakistan with conventional weapons,wants to retaliate with nuking cities, *we would return the pleasure in the same manner.* *Our attack would be in response to Indian provocations.* You invade our land, we would use tactical nukes, you want to nuke our cities we will do the same to you. We would neither invade India nor use strategic nukes in the first place. Hope you got it now.



Err, how can Pakistan's attack be a response when they were the ones who used the nuke first ?

Of course you are entitles to use ALL measures at your disposal to defend your land but the logic that Pakistan is responding is wrong.

The sequence is;

Pakistan uses Tac *Nukes* ----> India goes for all out strike ---- > Pakistan goes again ---- > India goes again --->.............it continues

and the chance that India will be the last to strike is much greater than Pakistan striking last.


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## KS

nabil_05 said:


> Let me start then... Lets see if it really exists or not because if it does not than we have wasted so much time and money on NASR
> 
> INDIAS NEW COLD START WAR DOCTRINE STRATEGICALLY REVIEWED
> 
> INDIAS NEW COLD START WAR DOCTRINE STRATEGICALLY REVIEWED -
> 
> belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/IS3203_pp158-190.pdf
> 
> ibnlive.in.com/news/army-may...cold-start.../80160-3-1.html -
> 
> blogs.reuters.com/.../india-pakistan-war-games-and-cold-start/ -


 
Blogs, IBN live, SAAG also qualify as Arm Chair Generals.

Let me repost what I said earlier ;



> Indian Army has never confirmed its presence and the Indian Political Establishment has vehemently denied it.



Also in my previous post I have said that Nasr may halt a Cold Start, but will not get Pakistan the victory or make India withdraw. Infact it will make India go on a Second nuke strike only that it will not be tactical.


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## khurasaan1

tareymareyikmarzi said:


> It is a tactical system hence the short range. I am sure they will tweak and enhance it for better performance and more tubes. For faster movement I think 4 would be max.


 
no I guess 2 is enough ..due to its short range..we cant risk to keep so many tactical nukes concentrated at one place ...can be destoyed by pre-emptive strike easily...


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## Areesh

Karthic Sri said:


> Err, how can Pakistan's attack be a response when they were the ones who used the nuke first ?


 
Because it would be using this missile after someone invaded it's land. No invasion no NASR missile. Simple.



> Of course you are entitles to use ALL measures at your disposal to defend your land but the logic that Pakistan is responding is wrong.



That's what you think. Obviously the guys who created this missile know what they are doing. 



> and the chance that India will be the last to strike is much greater than Pakistan striking last.



India might be the one striking the last blow but till then it would have lost so much the remaining India would be cursing their Generals after this so called last blow. Pakistan would definitely make sure that whether it responds last or second last or what ever, it annihilates and eliminates it's enemy as much as possible.


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## khurasaan1

safriz said:


> Time to build hydrogen bomba....Will come handy to deal with any disproportionate response from any enemy.


 
absolutely right bro..


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## KS

Areesh said:


> Because it would be using this missile after someone invaded it's land. No invasion no NASR missile. Simple.
> 
> That's what you think. Obviously the guys who created this missile know what they are doing.



There is something called conventional and non-conventional weapons and Tac nukes come under non-conventional weapons.

BTW I'm not interested in discussing the technicalities since you have made up your mind - but just know that once a Tac nuke is used it will not be considered a Tac nuke by India bur rather JUST as a nuclear First strike.

And by that the whole purpose of this NASR - to stop Indian Cold Start . It just invites more response. Right or wrong is not my contention. It just invites more retaliation.

Also that is why we are investing in BMD. To minimise that scenario.



Areesh said:


> India might be the one striking the last blow but till then it would have lost so much the remaining India *would be cursing their Generals after this so called last blow*. Pakistan would definitely make sure that whether it responds last or second last or what ever, it annihilates and eliminates it's enemy as much as possible.



We will be cursing even more if they fail to answer a Pakistani nuclear strike on Indian assets.


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## Roybot

So whats the nuclear fallout like guys? Yaar ek missile test na hogaya, saare yahan par ek doosre pe atom, hydrogen aur pata nahin kaun kaun si bomb giraye jaa rahe hain. You guys need to chill the fark down.


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## Markus

*Nasr seems to be a good deterrent but can it deter an Indian military strike on Pakistan if 26/11 happens again ?

Only time will tell.*


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## Dazzler

@Markus

26-11?? It seems Indian media is running on many heads these days. I believe some rational minds must remain rational. 

@Karthic Sri

You just discredited some very thought provoking analysis made by genuine researchers. Do not tell me you know more than them do you? Only to prove your point, you will do it every time.


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## Markus

nabil_05 said:


> @Markus
> 
> 26-11?? It seems Indian media is running on many heads these days. I believe some rational minds must remain rational.


 
Things will go very ugly if 26/11 happens again and I personally dont think Nasr will be able to prevent an Indian strike.

Cold start or no cold start, strike may certainly happen.


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## KS

nabil_05 said:


> @Karthic Sri
> 
> You just discredited some very thought provoking analysis made by genuine researchers. Do not tell me you know more than them do you? Only to prove your point, you will do it every time.


 
You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine.

And if you look into Wiki Leaks on Cold Start, which I consider authentic you will get to know.

And still my point on how Nasr defends (or not) Pakistan against a Cold Start stands.


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## Imran Khan

Markus said:


> *Nasr seems to be a good deterrent but can it deter an Indian military strike on Pakistan if 26/11 happens again ?
> 
> Only time will tell.*


 
jo kerna hai ker lena baty mat sunao ab


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## Dazzler

Markus said:


> Things will go very ugly if 26/11 happens again and I personally dont think Nasr will be able to prevent an Indian strike.
> 
> Cold start or no cold start, strike may certainly happen.


 
Since your media like to base more on assumption and to get Western sympathy to go along with it, hence the term 26-11. Pakistan has been living in a fight for her survival from her very independence so we are used to these ugly scenarios, nothing new. It is getting a bit boring to reduce a sense of insecurity in some members so lets get back to NASR shall we.


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## Markus

Imran Khan said:


> jo kerna hai ker lena baty mat sunao ab


 
Haan haan theek hai

Tum bhi jo kerna hai kar lena.

Hum nahi darte tunhare Nasr se.


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## Markus

nabil_05 said:


> Since your media like to base more on assumption and to get Western sympathy to go along with it, hence the term 26-11. Pakistan has been living in a fight for her survival from her very independence so we are used to these ugly scenarios, nothing new. It is getting a bit boring to reduce a sense of insecurity in some members so lets get back to NASR shall we.


 
Oh my God 

I never thought I will have to ever explain this.

26/11 means Mumbai attacks of 26th November.

Lovingly we call it 26/11 just like AMericans call it 9/11 for WTC attacks.

OK?


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## Dazzler

Actually i already have looked into it and it does say that the doctrine, though comprising on reality and myth, DOES exist and was announced in 2004. It is just that Indian Military is not US military hence they have serious short comings to implement it. 

Here is the link.

Cable Viewer


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## Markus

@nabil_05 : All my posts are on Nasr, you can check them.


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## Dazzler

It is time for you to relax. I do know the history of entire event and those who were involved from David Hadley to others and will never need your assistance in this regard. Enough from me. No need to bang your head.

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## Imran Khan

Markus said:


> Haan haan theek hai
> 
> Tum bhi jo kerna hai kar lena.
> 
> Hum nahi darte tunhare Nasr se.


 lol kitny attacks per same tune bajaty ho tum log yaar kabhi asl main kuch ker bhi liya kero .


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## Markus

nabil_05 said:


> It is time for you to relax. I do know the history of entire event and those who were involved from David Hadley to others and will never need your assistance in this regard. Enough from me. No need to bang your head.


 
I am completely relaxed.

One question on Nasr which others could not answer, may be you can help.

What kind of radars would be required to locate Nasr launch tubes?

Any idea?


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## KS

nabil_05 said:


> Cable Viewer


 
Yes yaar. The reality part was that our mobilisation time in 2002 was long - about 4 days IIRC and the Indian Army (as any other Army) wanted to reduce the mobilisation time to more than half.

That's to it. It is surrounding this core concept the entire myth of Cold Start is built.

Any way I'm not arguing on Cold Start but the effectiveness of Nasr on this perceived Cold Start and will it give defence to Pakistan.


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## Dazzler

Markus said:


> I am completely relaxed.
> 
> One question on Nasr which others could not answer, may be you can help.
> 
> What kind of radars would be required to locate Nasr launch tubes?
> 
> Any idea?




It is too early to say this however it is my belief that a small size highly agile ballistic missile will take a few seconds to reach its target 60 kms away. Therefore, any SAM will have to react within a span of few seconds and even then chances of an interception are very slim.


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## Markus

nabil_05 said:


> It is too early to say this however it is my belief that a small size highly agile ballistic missile will take a few seconds to reach its target 60 kms away. Therefore, any SAM will have to react within a span of few seconds and even then chances of an interception are very slim.


 
Hmmm.

So I guess Indian greenpine is not of much use.


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## Dazzler

Usman Ansari covered it as well. 


ISLAMABAD - Pakistan yesterday conducted the first official test firing of what it described as a short-range surface-to-surface multitube ballistic missile.

An Inter-Services Press Release statement said the Nasr (Victory) missile could be tipped with "nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy," therefore confirming Pakistan's long-assumed tactical nuclear weapons program.
Related Topics

The statement also described it as a "quick response system [which] addresses the need to deter evolving threats."

Nasr is the ninth in the Pakistani Hatf (Vengeance) series of missile systems. Images, and film released by ISPR and Associated Press of Pakistan show it to be a two-round system carried on the Chinese-origin 8x8 high-mobility truck chassis used by the Army's AR1A/A100-E 300mm Multiple Launch Rocket System.

Haris Khan, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said Nasr answers India's Cold Start doctrine.

"Hatf-IX is a perfect answer to the Indian concept of Cold Start," Khan said. "It establishes that tactical nuclear weapons will be deployed very close to its border with minimum reaction time to counter any armor or mechanized thrust by an enemy into its Pakistani territory."

The Nasr test shows Pakistan can build small nuclear warheads for all kinds of delivery platforms, said Mansoor Ahmed, a lecturer at Quaid-e-Azam University here who specializes in nonconventional weapons and missiles.

"Theoretically, 1 kilogram of weapons-grade plutonium boosted with 4-5 grams of tritium gives a 10-20KT yield, provided the trigger is sophisticated," Ahmed said. "However, the diameter size of Nasr suggests that the warhead would be less than 1 kilogram, and would be of sub-kiloton range, suitable for battlefield use and could be a fission boosted sub-kiloton fission device."Pakistan will now "not accept any cap in plutonium production in the foreseeable future," he said.

Similar in concept to the Russian Iskander, the Nasr has a much shorter range: 60 kilometers, which Ahmed said could be extended.


Pakistan Tests 'Nuke-Capable' Short-Range Missile - Defense News

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## KS

nabil_05 said:


> "Hatf-IX is a *perfect answer* to the Indian concept of Cold Start," Khan said. "It establishes that tactical nuclear weapons will be deployed very close to its border with minimum reaction time to counter any armor or mechanized thrust by an enemy into its Pakistani territory."
> 
> Pakistan Tests 'Nuke-Capable' Short-Range Missile - Defense News


 
Ok I give up. Pakistani defence writers seem to be a perfect match to their Indian counterparts


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## Dazzler

Karthic Sri said:


> Ok I give up. Pakistani defence writers seem to be a perfect match to their Indian counterparts


 
The person you quoted, Haris Khan, is considered by most among most authentic defense analyst in Pakistan. IIRC, he is a retired military man and has a vast pool of insiders. I would believe his info any day.

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## KS

^ Ok yaar.

Just remind him that any nuclear strike on Indian assets by Nasr or Shaheen - 0.5 kT or 500 kT - in Indian Land or in Pakistan will be taken as a Nuclear first strike against India and will be responded accordingly as per our declared NFU doctrine.

I'm out of this discussion as it seems to be going around in circles.


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## jahangeer yousaf

Karthic Sri said:


> Ok I give up. Pakistani defence writers seem to be a perfect match to their Indian counterparts


 
you do not have anyother choice

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## Dazzler

I hope your NFU doctrine may not suffer the same fate as Cold Start so tomorrow some might say that NFU doe not exist.  

Take care

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## KS

Coming back to topic - *how many tubes are there in one launcher vehicle* ?




nabil_05 said:


> I hope your NFU doctrine was not meet the same fate as Cold Start.
> 
> Take care


 
NFU is as true as India on a world map and is acknowledged by all three - Military,Political Establishment and SFC.




jahangeer yousaf said:


> you do not have any other choice


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## Rafi

There has also been development in multi megaton strategic weapons - a computer model has been developed to wipe the entity to the east, from the face of the planet if (God forbid) it is necessary. Most of the weapons have been designed to survive a first strike.


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## Markus

Karthic Sri said:


> Coming back to topic - *how many tubes are there in one launcher* ?


 
You had asked the same question two days back to 

Looks like nobody knows abt it.


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## Dazzler

See the video yar it has two tubes.


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## KS

nabil_05 said:


> See the video yar it has two tubes.



Abe videos not allowed in office.. lol..Anyways thanks



Markus said:


> You had asked the same question two days back to
> 
> Looks like nobody knows abt it.


 
 I gave up that day asking this question. Somebody atleast answered it today.


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## Manticore

nabil bhai, im a bit confused e some conflicting data

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles-4.html#post1691240


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## Manticore

did some1 ask for this?

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## Windjammer

People who were questioning the number of tubes involved in the NASR launcher, need to understand that the weapon was launched from a prototype platform hence the production variant will incorporate multi barrel launch tubes.
As for Babur Cruise Missiles, one can see how it evolved through it's brief history and may also end up in a multi launch platform and eventually end up looking like the system in the bottom image.

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## hataf

can we sell it to friendly countries ????

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Birruna said:


> Both Pakistan's and later India's tact nukes will fall on Pakistani soil. I can live with that.


 India using nukes, tactical or otherwise, on Pakistan soil will invite nuclear strikes on Indian soil, which you cannot 'live with'. Indian decision makers will have to think long and hard about whether they want to invite nuclear strikes on their military and civilian targets in India by launching nukes at Pakistan - so long as Pakistan restricts the use of tactical nukes to its own soil against an invading army, India will have a hard time responding in kind and escalating the war into a full fledged nuclear exchange.

The whole point of deploying and potentially using tactical nukes on Pakistani soil by Pakistan is that it makes it very hard for India to justify a retaliatory nuclear strike on Pakistani soil, since a country has every right to use all possible means to destroy invaders. Were Pakistan to use tactical nukes on Indian soil, then that would be a different situation.

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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> India using nukes, tactical or otherwise, on Pakistan soil will invite nuclear strikes on Indian soil, which you cannot 'live with'. Indian decision makers will have to think long and hard about whether they want to invite nuclear strikes on their military and civilian targets in India by launching nukes at Pakistan - so long as Pakistan restricts the use of tactical nukes to its own soil against an invading army, India will have a hard time responding in kind and escalating the war into a full fledged nuclear exchange.
> 
> The whole point of deploying and potentially using tactical nukes on Pakistani soil by Pakistan is that it makes it very hard for India to justify a retaliatory nuclear strike on Pakistani soil, since a country has every right to use all possible means to destroy invaders. Were Pakistan to use tactical nukes on Indian soil, then that would be a different situation.



I don't know how you can 'justify' using nukes against an Indian invasion if its in response to another terror strike (as I cant think any other situation in which India intiates operations) as India can essentially argue that the 'terror' strike is in itself an act of war and it is only retaliating.

But anyhow all these does not matter as the declared Indian NFU is quite clear in this regard --- Nasr or Shaheen --- 0.5 kT or 500 kT --- Indian soil or Pakistani soil --- an usage of nuke against Indian assets (read Army,City.....) will be treated as a Nuclear First Attack on India and the response will be according to our doctrine - massive and disproportionate.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> I don't know how you can 'justify' using nukes against an Indian invasion if its in response to another terror strike (as I cant think any other situation in which India intiates operations) as India can essentially argue that the 'terror' strike is in itself an act of war and it is only retaliating.


But using your logic you could also then extend the argument and say 'how can you justify using ANY weapons against an Indian invasion if it is in response to another terror strike' - that is an absurd argument. The State of Pakistan will not be responsible or complicit in any terror strike in India, so why should we not retaliate against an illegal and unjustified invasion of Pakistani territory with any and all means necessary?

Again, the weapons will be used on Pakistani soil, the radiation, fallout and after effects will be primarily Pakistan's problem - for India to respond in kind by launching nukes at Pakistan will be a major, major escalation in terms of using nukes against another nation's territory, and will escalate into full fledged nuclear war with Pakistan then launching nukes at Indian cities and military targets. Indian planners will have to think long and hard about taking the first step of attacking another nation's territory with nuclear weapons.


> But anyhow all these does not matter as the declared Indian NFU is quite clear in this regard --- Nasr or Shaheen --- 0.5 kT or 500 kT --- Indian soil or Pakistani soil --- an usage of nuke against Indian assets (read Army,City.....) will be treated as a Nuclear First Attack on India and the response will be according to our doctrine - massive and disproportionate.


Does not matter what your doctrine states - understand what will happen and the implications of an Indian nuclear strike on Pakistani territory.

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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> India using nukes, tactical or otherwise, on Pakistan soil will invite nuclear strikes on Indian soil, which you cannot 'live with'. Indian decision makers will have to think long and hard about whether they want to invite nuclear strikes on their military and civilian targets in India by launching nukes at Pakistan - so long as Pakistan restricts the use of tactical nukes to its own soil against an invading army, India will have a hard time responding in kind and escalating the war into a full fledged nuclear exchange.
> 
> The whole point of deploying and potentially using tactical nukes on Pakistani soil by Pakistan is that it makes it very hard for India to justify a retaliatory nuclear strike on Pakistani soil, since a country has every right to use all possible means to destroy invaders. Were Pakistan to use tactical nukes on Indian soil, then that would be a different situation.


 
The argument works both ways. How can Pakistan be sure of the type of reaction that India may have to the use of "tactical nuclear weapons" even if it is carried out on Pakistani soil. Wouldn't Pakistan be thinking long & hard before doing something that might invite complete annihilation if they guessed wrong? India might not see the use of a tactical nuclear weapon as a one off & might retaliate immediately with a massive strike. Whether or not enough of Pakistani second strike capabilities remain in place after the Indian strike, Pakistan might have essentially been destroyed. Whether or not India too is devastated, Pakistan would have paid a heavy price for her rash decisions.

I'm always surprised that Pakistani members assume that India will always act with discretion on the nuclear front while they continue to insist that they will somehow behave like crazies with their bomb & get away with it.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

indian are well aware of the implications of attacking us first; and that is why all they do is talk the talk --something theyve been good at for some time now.

but i think the timing and the response itself was appropriate to put to rest the notion among some hindudeshis that CSD is a feasible and applicable doctrine

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Bang Galore said:


> The argument works both ways. How can Pakistan be sure of the type of reaction that India may have to the use of "tactical nuclear weapons" even if it is carried out on Pakistani soil.


Because it will then be India that is taking the first step of escalating into full fledged nuclear war by attacking Pakistani territory with nuclear weapons. There is simply no parallel between a nation using any weapons necessary on its own soil to defend against invasion and a nation attacking another nation's territory with nuclear weapons.


> Wouldn't Pakistan be thinking long & hard before doing something that might invite complete annihilation if they guessed wrong? India might not see the use of a tactical nuclear weapon as a one off & might retaliate immediately with a massive strike.


Indian use of nuclear weapons on Pakistan soil, without a Pakistani nuclear attack on Indian soil, would mean India does not have a NFU policy, and India would be responsible for escalating into full fledged nuclear war. 

India cannot set conditions for the type of response Pakistan can employ on its own soil in response to an India invasion. If that were the case, then what is to stop India from threatening to use nukes if its IBG's are destroyed by conventional weapons? Pakistan's objective will be the same whether it restricts itself to conventional or unconventional weapons - destroy the Indian IBG's and their supply lines inside Pakistani territory. India cannot dictate what we use on our own soil.



> Whether or not enough of Pakistani second strike capabilities remain in place after the Indian strike, Pakistan might have essentially been destroyed. Whether or not India too is devastated, Pakistan would have paid a heavy price for her rash decisions.


Pakistan would be prepared for an Indian nuclear first strike on Pakistani territory with missiles deployed. Indian missile launches will be detected and responded to. India does not have the capability (not even close) at the moment to obliterate Pakistan or destroy anywhere close to all of its nuclear assets. India will suffer from a retaliatory nuclear strike on its soil if it chooses to launch nukes at Pakistan.


> I'm always surprised that Pakistani members assume that India will always act with discretion on the nuclear front while they continue to insist that they will somehow behave like crazies with their bomb & get away with it.


Actually in this scenario it is more a case of Indians thinking Pakistan will 'act with discretion' in the face of an Indian invasion and not use any and all means at its disposal to destroy the invaders. Again, another nation cannot dictate what means Pakistan uses to attack an invader on its soil, otherwise you'll end up limiting us to using 'sticks and stones'.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Bang Galore said:


> I'm always surprised that Pakistani members assume that India will always act with discretion on the nuclear front while they continue to insist that they will somehow behave like crazies with their bomb & get away with it.



Battle of Chawinda --- a few Pakistani jawans, who were very modestly equipped, strapped dynamite to their chests and blew up indian tanks to smithereens killing the crew inside. Those who weren't killed were taken POWs. A similar fate would meet a vast majority of the other invading armoured columns. 


Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.

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## IndianArmy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Battle of Chawinda --- a few Pakistani jawans, who were very modestly equipped, strapped dynamite to their chests and blew up indian tanks to smithereens killing the crew inside. A similar fate would meet a vast majority of the other invading armoured columns.
> 
> 
> Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.


 
Suicide is never termed Sacrifice.... A Soldier is entitled to give life, but he is never trained to give it up so easily.... Kamikaze or Banzai charge Tactic....I am sorry If I sound negative, you can Reason it for me...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

IndianArmy said:


> Suicide is never termed Sacrifice.... A Soldier is entitled to give life, but he is never trained to give it up so easily.... Kamikaze Tactic....I am sorry If I sound negative, you can Reason it for me...


 
for the sake of protecting the sacred soil, any employable tactic is justified. I fundamentally and in all terms disagree with you. 

they are heros -- and the fact that they helped turn the battle in Pakistani favour is a testament to that. We digress, but the point of my post was that indian through past and ongoing events would be aware that we are willing to go through great lengths -- ANY length -- for the defence of our sacred land against the enemy. A soldier isn't worth his blood and salt otherwise. And every soldier in Pakistan is always ready and prepared for war at any time. 






p.s. those tamil rebels you indians supported were experts at kamikaze attacks, no?

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## Bang Galore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Because it will then be India that is taking the first step of escalating into full fledged nuclear war by attacking Pakistani territory with nuclear weapons. There is simply no parallel between a nation using any weapons necessary on its own soil to defend against invasion and a nation attacking another nation's territory with nuclear weapons.



There is simply no parallel to any nation using tactical nuclear weapons. Other parallels simply fly out of the window once that happens. My point is that Pakistan can be no more certain of India's response than India can supposedly be of Pakistan's response.


> Indian use of nuclear weapons on Pakistan soil, without a Pakistani nuclear attack on Indian soil, would mean India does not have a NFU policy, and India would be responsible for escalating into full fledged nuclear war.



Indian policy simply states that an use of a nuclear weapon against *any Indian asset* would constitute a first strike. The scenario under discussion fits that standard.


> India cannot set conditions for the type of response Pakistan can employ on its own soil in response to an India invasion. If that were the case, then what is to stop India from threatening to use nukes if its IBG's are destroyed by conventional weapons? Pakistan's objective will be the same whether it restricts itself to conventional or unconventional weapons - destroy the Indian IBG's and their supply lines inside Pakistani territory. India cannot dictate what we use on our own soil.



No issue with Pakistan's objectives but possible Indian retaliation will have to be factored in as a unknown variable. 




> Pakistan would be prepared for an Indian nuclear first strike on Pakistani territory with missiles deployed. Indian missile launches will be detected and responded to. India does not have the capability (not even close) at the moment to obliterate Pakistan or destroy anywhere close to all of its nuclear assets. India will suffer from a retaliatory nuclear strike on its soil if it chooses to launch nukes at Pakistan.



Preparations are never an one way street. You can safely assume that Indian planners too would have factored in a possible nuclear strike & their responses before starting any operation. As for India suffering a retaliatory strike on its soil, that would be poor consolation for what would be left of Pakistan. My point is simple; Pakistan has to factor an Indian response in its plans & then decide whether the risk is worth taking. In any case, we are talking about limited breaches into Pakistani territory here. If Pakistan lowers its nuclear threshold, then it must be prepared for consequences that such actions might invite.


> Actually in this scenario it is more a case of Indians thinking Pakistan will 'act with discretion' in the face of an Indian invasion and not use any and all means at its disposal to destroy the invaders. Again, another nation cannot dictate what means Pakistan uses to attack an invader on its soil, otherwise you'll end up limiting us to using 'sticks and stones'.


 
If & when India moves against Pakistan, it would be because they have decided that the threat of a nuclear war; however terrifying is somehow more acceptable than suffering a terror strike originating in Pakistan (I'm assuming that the Indian action would follow an unbearable terrorist strike). essentially India would have called Pakistan's nuclear bluff in such a situation & would come prepared for such an eventuality. Pakistan has to then decide whether the Indian actions are worth risking complete (or close) annihilation since India has already made that decision when it decides to act.


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## IndianArmy

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> for the sake of protecting the sacred soil, any employable tactic is justified. I fundamentally disagree with you.
> 
> they are heros -- and the fact that they helped turn the battle in Pakistani favour is a testament to that. We digress, but the point of my post was that indian through past and ongoing events would be aware that we are willing to go through great lengths -- ANY length -- for the defence of our sacred land against the enemy. A soldier isn't worth his blood and salt otherwise. And every soldier in Pakistan is always ready and prepared for war at any time.


 
Indeed a Honorable Duty..I am Intending to stop here as I have totally different view points on general tactics and Battle formations... I completely do not Favor this concept, Even though Geneva Convention is Silent on this, This is not considered as professionalism , But again Nothing is fair in Love and War as was said by some wise man..

Show Me One Proof which states Indian Army Supported Tamil Rebels?


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## Thorough Pro

Karthic Sri said:


> So do you believe these online Indians over the Indian Military ?
> 
> I would not.


 
Neither does any one in Pakistan, they both arre liers.


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## Manticore

_________________________*MISSILE*
A missile is a* guided weapon having the ability to control its trajectory. *It may or may not be propelled by a rocket.
Many (but not all) guided missiles use rockets as their principal source of propulsion eg sidewinder 





______________________*BASED ON TRAJECTORY *

* A *quasi ballistic missile (also called a semi ballistic missile)* is a category of missile that has a low trajectory and/or is largely ballistic but can perform maneuvers in flight or make unexpected changes in direction and range.

At a lower trajectory than a ballistic missile, a quasi ballistic missile can maintain higher speed, thus allowing its target less time to react to the attack, at the cost of reduced range.

* A *ballistic missile* is a missile that follows a sub-orbital ballistic flightpath with the objective of delivering one or more warheads to a predetermined target. 

* *cruise missilies* are terrain hugging missiles which are self-navigating, and can fly on a non-ballistic, extremely low altitude trajectory


_______________________*BASED ON RANGE *

*tactical ballistic missile : range is less than 300 kilometres
*(BRBM): Range less than 200 km
*(TBM): Range between 300 km and 3500 km 
*(SRBM): Range 1000 km or less
*(MRBM): Range between 1000 km and 3500 km
*(IRBM) or long-range ballistic missile (LRBM): Range between 3500 km and 5500 km
*(ICBM): Range greater than 5500 km
*(SLBM): Launched from ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), all current designs have intercontinental range.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*rockets*

Once thrown, there is no further correction for the trajectory of that rocket

The term "rocket" has been used ever since the Chinese first built them with black powder 500 years (?) ago even though they relied on the oxygen in the air to burn. In modern day dialogues, the use of the word "rocket" implies that a liquid fueled engine has it's own oxidizer on board, typically LOX. But not always.

Solid fueled boosters are said to use a propellent that contains it's own oxidizer so the inconsistency spreads the confusion. *They too are rockets but we call them "boosters". *Why? I haven't a clue!




*projectile, bullet*
Cannon shells are referred to as "projectiles" or "shells" when over a certain diameter and bullets when smaller.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles.html#post1685955

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## KS

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Battle of Chawinda --- a few Pakistani jawans, who were very modestly equipped, strapped dynamite to their chests and blew up indian tanks to smithereens killing the crew inside. Those who weren't killed were taken POWs. A similar fate would meet a vast majority of the other invading armoured columns.
> 
> 
> Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.


 
Good for you. But we Indians go by Gen.Patton's words, if you know what I mean.




Abu Zolfiqar said:


> f
> p.s. those tamil rebels you indians supported were experts at kamikaze attacks, no?


 
We did not train them in that. They learned it from their Syrian counterparts.


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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> But using your logic you could also then extend the argument and say 'how can you justify using ANY weapons against an Indian invasion if it is in response to another terror strike' - that is an absurd argument. The State of Pakistan will not be responsible or complicit in any terror strike in India, so why should we not retaliate against an illegal and unjustified invasion of Pakistani territory with any and all means necessary?



The State of Pakistan as you define is comprised of it's citizens who also sometimes double up as Non-State Actors. It is anybody's guess who is responsible for actions by Pakistani nationals planning inside Pakistan and executing that in India.



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Again, the weapons will be used on Pakistani soil, the radiation, fallout and after effects will be primarily Pakistan's problem - for India to respond in kind by launching nukes at Pakistan will be a major, major escalation in terms of using nukes against another nation's territory, and will escalate into full fledged nuclear war with Pakistan then launching nukes at Indian cities and military targets. Indian planners will have to think long and hard about taking the first step of attacking another nation's territory with nuclear weapons.
> 
> Does not matter what your doctrine states - understand what will happen and the implications of an Indian nuclear strike on Pakistani territory.


 
I've already said that our NFU is clear in this regard - Indian soil or Pakistani soil -- Tac nuke or a high yield one everything will be seen though the same lens as Nuclear First Strike on Indian assets and the retaliatory strike will be to the fullest. 

Ofcourse we know Pakistan will retaliate, but NFU takes that into account and aims at inflicting the maximum damage in its first attempt an also that is why we are investing in something called BMD.


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## Kavin

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> p.s. those tamil rebels you indians supported were experts at kamikaze attacks, no?



We supported Tamil rebels once for a cause. But we never supported Kamikaze type of attacks. Indians apparently withdrew support to LTTE when they turned rogue. After all, we're victim of their suicide tactics. Read about IPKF war against LTTE and Rajiv assassination.


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## KS

Kavin said:


> We supported Tamil rebels once for a cause. But we never supported Kamikaze type of attacks. Indians apparently withdrew support to LTTE when they turned rogue. After all, we're victim of their suicide tactics. Read about IPKF war against LTTE and Rajiv assassination.


 
You think he doesn't know that ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> The State of Pakistan as you define is comprised of it's citizens who also sometimes double up as Non-State Actors. It is anybody's guess who is responsible for actions by Pakistani nationals planning inside Pakistan and executing that in India.


That is irrelevant to the argument - regardless of who India thinks is guilty, the State of Pakistan's position will be the same as it is now, and India will have no compelling evidence to indicate Pakistani State complicity, just as it does not have any evidence now. And since India will have no compelling case, it will have no justification for war, and even if it claims justification, Pakistan is under no obligation under any international law to not retaliate to an invasion of its territory as it sees fit. India cannot dictate how we respond to aggression and invasion of Pakistan.


> I've already said that our NFU is clear in this regard - Indian soil or Pakistani soil -- Tac nuke or a high yield one everything will be seen though the same lens as Nuclear First Strike on Indian assets and the retaliatory strike will be to the fullest.


And as I said, it does not matter what you state your NFU to be - launching nukes against another nation's territory is a huge escalation of the war and an initiation of a full fledged nuclear exchange. Regardless of the rhetoric around your NFU, India's leadership will be hard pressed to be the first to launch nukes at Pakistan and invite a nuclear holocaust over the Pakistani use of tactical nukes on its own soil against invading forces.


> Ofcourse we know Pakistan will retaliate, but NFU takes that into account and aims at inflicting the maximum damage in its first attempt an also that is why we are investing in something called BMD.


You can 'aim' at inflicting maximum damage, but the fact is that India simply does not have the capability to do anything like 'obliterate Pakistan'. India does not have the numbers nor does it have the yields of nuclear weapons to do what you claim (neither does Pakistan for that matter). Pakistan will survive an Indian first, second and third nuclear strike, and retaliate with each one. Given our larger arsenal, and India's population density, India will suffer more damage. Neither country will be destroyed, though millions (perhaps tens of millions) will die.

Therefore your decision makers are extremely unlikely to retaliate to a defensive use of tactical nukes by Pakistan on Pakistani soil with a nuclear strike on Pakistani soil and invite the scenario painted above. 

Cold Start and/or any other doctrine or strategy based around occupation of Pakistani territory by Indian troops is 'dead as a dodo', and that applies to a Pakistani attempt to do the same in India as well.

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## KS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> That is irrelevant to the argument - regardless of who India thinks is guilty, the State of Pakistan's position will be the same as it is now, and India will have no compelling evidence to indicate Pakistani State complicity, just as it does not have any evidence now. And since India will have no compelling case, it will have no justification for war, and even if it claims justification, 1) *Pakistan is under no obligation under any international law to not retaliate to an invasion of its territory as it sees fit. India cannot dictate how we respond to aggression and invasion of Pakistan.*
> 
> And as I said, it does not matter what you state your NFU to be - launching nukes against another nation's territory is a huge escalation of the war and an initiation of a full fledged nuclear exchange. Regardless of the rhetoric around your NFU, India's leadership will be hard pressed to be the first to launch nukes at Pakistan and invite a nuclear holocaust over the Pakistani use of tactical nukes on its own soil against invading forces.
> 
> You can 'aim' at inflicting maximum damage, 2)*but the fact is that India simply does not have the capability to do anything like 'obliterate Pakistan'. India does not have the numbers nor does it have the yields of nuclear weapons to do what you claim *(neither does Pakistan for that matter). Pakistan will survive an Indian first, second and third nuclear strike, and retaliate with each one. Given our larger arsenal, and India's population density, India will suffer more damage. Neither country will be destroyed, though millions (perhaps tens of millions) will die.
> 
> Therefore your decision makers are extremely unlikely to retaliate to a defensive use of tactical nukes by Pakistan on Pakistani soil with a nuclear strike on Pakistani soil and invite the scenario painted above.
> 
> Cold Start and/or any other doctrine or strategy based around occupation of Pakistani territory by Indian troops is 'dead as a dodo', and that applies to a Pakistani attempt to do the same in India as well.




Just the two points since the others are just chest thumping.

1) Exactly and that holds for India too. Pakistan cannot dictate how we respond in case of usage of Tac nukes and that has been the crux of my argument against Pakistanis so far.

2) The exact numbers and the yield of Indian nukes are a closely guarde secret which is not even disclosed to Ministers and I thus I find n justification for your declaration. 

But a common sense will tell that 9 (possibly more) Indian reactors are pumping our fuel for our nukes and with the Exemptions granted and Uranium starting to come from outside and huge financial resources it is anybody's guess of our ability to beef up numbers as and when required.

As for the yield - Link

A nuclear exchange with India is certain suicide for Pakistan as we know it now and India too will be severley damaged. Though not to the extent of Pakistan.


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## nightcrawler

TaimiKhan said:


> Indian Smerch with 90KM is already being over ranged by our A-100s.
> 
> Remember Indian Smerch is a MBRL system, its a rocket not a missile, and ours in comparison is the A-100, which can be increased to 120+ even to 150KM range.
> 
> Nasr is something different, its a SSM nor just a simple un-guided rocket.


I doubt what you are saying is true; provided that A-100 itself is based on Smerch!! Though its range is marginally better than ASmerch but their are other things to ponder like:

12 Smerch volleys versus 10 of A-100
Smerch ability to launch UAV rockets [kind off new thing] don't know if India has it
The fire control system of the Smerch, the Vivari, can function automatically or under manual control. The Vivari system is housed in a command vehicle and controls six launchers. it calculates ballistic and targeting data of each launcher. Similar can't be said [atleast I didn't find any info] about A-100


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## SEAL

CSD is history now there is no such thing "limited war" in Indo/Pak case surgical strikes can turn small conflict into full fledge war Indians better remove their forces from Pakistan border.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Karthic Sri said:


> Just the two points since the others are just chest thumping.


There is no chest thumping anywhere in my posts - those are the facts. If I indicated that India could not 'obliterate' Pakistan with its nukes or capture any territory, I said the same for Pakistan. If you have reason to disagree with what you call 'chest thumping' please provide the facts to refute me.


> 1) Exactly and that holds for India too. Pakistan cannot dictate how we respond in case of usage of Tac nukes and that has been the crux of my argument against Pakistanis so far.


Your argument is flawed since it implies that India would take the first step to initiate nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent. Pakistan's use of tactical nukes will be limited and for defensive purposes on its own soil in case of an invasion. That is not equivalent to launching nukes at another nations cities or military on that nations soil.

Look at it this way - there are only two things that can happen if Indian IBG's penetrate Pakistani territory. Either they hold that territory until Pakistani forces are defeated comprehensively (extremely unlikely even with Pakistan sticking to just conventional munitions) or the IBG's get decimated, either through conventional munitions or a combination of conventional and unconventional munitions. If the latter case happens (with tactical nukes), Pakistan will know that it can expect the same in case of an incursion into Indian territory (which would be tempting since Pakistan will have destroyed a large chunk of India's offensive formations at that point), and so will resist from doing so. 

Now India is faced with a bad and worse situation. 

1. (Bad situation) It can accept the destruction of its offensive formations, take solace in the fact that it made a point and inflicted a cost on Pakistan as well, and cease hostilities with a stalemate, with no offensive goals accomplished and no bargaining power over Pakistan.

2. (Worse situation) It can escalate the war into a nuclear exchange, still gain absolutely no military advantage since its own military, cities and infrastructure will come under a retaliatory Pakistani nuclear attack, suffer billions in damage, millions dead, and still end the war in a stalemate with both sides exhausted and severely damaged, and set back decades.

What advantage do you see in option 2? Or, what advantage can you see in option 2 that I have neglected?



> 2) The exact numbers and the yield of Indian nukes are a closely guarded secret which is not even disclosed to Ministers and I thus I find n justification for your declaration.
> 
> But a common sense will tell that 9 (possibly more) Indian reactors are pumping our fuel for our nukes and with the Exemptions granted and Uranium starting to come from outside and huge financial resources it is anybody's guess of our ability to beef up numbers as and when required.


Pakistan's actual warhead count is secret as well, yet several international organizations have come to similar conclusions about the size of their )India and Pakistan's) respective arsenals. I am going by that. At most India has a few hundred assembled warheads and missiles to carry them into Pakistan (we are not putting together legos here) - stockpiled fueled cannot be included the estimates because of the complexity of assembling the warheads and delivery systems and mating them. There won't be time for that in an India-Pakistan war.


> As for the yield - Link
> 
> A nuclear exchange with India is certain suicide for Pakistan as we know it now and India too will be severley damaged. Though not to the extent of Pakistan.


The capability to do so means nothing. And even at that yield 'obliterating Pakistan' is not possible. These 'obliteration' claims are fanboy fantasies. India and Pakistan need the megaton capacity of the US and USSR, and the ability to deliver hundreds of warheads that actually detonate, to achieve 'obliteration' of the other.

BTW, it is precisely these claims of 'obliteration', that you and Bang Galore before you, have made that are 'chest thumping' and fanboy fantasies.

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## Silk

Kavin said:


> We supported Tamil rebels once for a cause. But we never supported Kamikaze type of attacks. Indians apparently withdrew support to LTTE when they turned rogue. After all, we're victim of their suicide tactics. Read about IPKF war against LTTE and Rajiv assassination.


 
I doubt the average Pakistani supports it but to tell ya the truth. Tamils did invent the idea. They implemented it even on Rajiv. So next time you see these things somewhere, do remind yourself that Indians were the ones that were first.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Silk said:


> do remind yourself that Indians were the ones that were first.


Wouldn't it be the Japanese?

Anyway, off topic.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Karthic Sri said:


> Good for you. But we Indians go by Gen.Patton's words, if you know what I mean.



well as far as the battle is concerned, numbers and results speak for themselves

Chawinda became a huge graveyard for the indians and their mechanized armour; thanks to synergy between 2 services and thanks to bravery and ''unconventional'' warring tactics the numerically superior enemy was caught dead in its tracks (literally)

anywaz....





> They learned it from their Syrian counterparts.



i didnt know ''Al-Sham'' also 'enjoys' a tamil population 

anyways, we shouldnt delve into tamil insurgency here; those tamils are drowned on the bottom of indian ocean and there's always more room down there for more trouble makers


regards


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fox said:


> CSD is history now there is no such thing "limited war" in Indo/Pak case surgical strikes can turn small conflict into full fledge war Indians better remove their forces from Pakistan border.


 
as usual, indian will be forced to eat and swallow those words



as usual,


big boast
small roast!


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## Windjammer

@ AM, @ AZ, Gentlemen, why are you wasting your high caliber knowledge and talent on these weekend warriors.

For, I am witness as when the news of this test and pictures came through, these characters were running around like headless chickens. 
The fact is that the test of NASR has made more impact than the Ghauri or Shaheen, and we all know why. 
Now it's just a question of gathering composure and redeeming their bewildered souls.

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## AUz

Windjammer said:


> @ AM, @ AZ, Gentlemen, why are you wasting your high caliber knowledge and talent on these weekend warriors.
> 
> For, I am witness as when the news of this test and pictures came through, these characters were running around like headless chickens.
> The fact is that the test of NASR has made more impact than the Ghauri or Shaheen, and we all know why.
> Now it's just a question of gathering composure and redeeming their bewildered souls.


 
There you go sir  

Indians,keep buying your T-90s..They are really good


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## Thorough Pro

Kavin said:


> We supported Tamil rebels once for a cause. But we never supported Kamikaze type of attacks. Indians apparently withdrew support to LTTE when they turned rogue. After all, we're victim of their suicide tactics. Read about IPKF war against LTTE and Rajiv assassination.


 
So now you Indians agree to have been involved in supporting & training terrorists in Sri Lanka.


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## TaimiKhan

nightcrawler said:


> I doubt what you are saying is true; provided that A-100 itself is based on Smerch!! Though its range is marginally better than ASmerch but their are other things to ponder like:
> 
> 12 Smerch volleys versus 10 of A-100
> Smerch ability to launch UAV rockets [kind off new thing] don't know if India has it
> The fire control system of the Smerch, the Vivari, can function automatically or under manual control. The Vivari system is housed in a command vehicle and controls six launchers. it calculates ballistic and targeting data of each launcher. Similar can't be said [atleast I didn't find any info] about A-100



1. The newer model in Chinese service are coming with 12 tube launchers and the older 10 ones can be updated to the 12 tube configuration.

2. No idea what UAV kind of thingy you are talking about. A reference to such system to know about it would be appreciated.

3. A-100 does comes with computerized fire control system and it wouldn't be a hard thing to synchronize multiple launchers into firing at the same target or to cover a specified target area. It can be done through radio system or data communication setup, which would be an easy job. And i do believe we have the ones which can communicate with each other and can synchronize their fire at the same target. 

Plus, problem is that we don't fully know the specifications of the system that we have gotten or what are the plans for its future induction. What are their range, warhead capability, range etc etc. 

So, don't worry, A-100 is a very capable system and is worth having. It gives us a very good long range - deep strike capability and these can be further upgraded with the tech developed for NASR and made more lethal.

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## Mani2020

any pics of the test or missile?

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## Imran Khan

Mani2020 said:


> any pics of the test or missile?


 
mamooo look thread from starting there is tons of .


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## nightcrawler

TaimiKhan said:


> 2. No idea what UAV kind of thingy you are talking about. A reference to such system to know about it would be appreciated.
> *So, don't worry, A-100 is a very capable system and is worth having. It gives us a very good long range - deep strike capability and these can be further upgraded with the tech developed for NASR and made more lethal*.


 Thnx for clearing my head. Here is what you asked; I also had seen Youtube video of it; but I don't have it anymore
Fire Scout


> however, a more logical use might be for strike damage assessment, particularly in support of a sensor-fused weapon attack. In that case, the "spotter" round could be launched with the first ripple of rockets, refining the targeting of the next salvo.



A much authoritative source:
http://en.enics.ru/product


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## nightcrawler

ANTIBODY said:


> _________________
> *rockets*
> 
> Once thrown, there is no further correction for the trajectory of that rocket
> 
> The term "rocket" has been used ever since the Chinese first built them with black powder 500 years (?) ago even though they relied on the oxygen in the air to burn. In modern day dialogues, the use of the word "rocket" implies that a liquid fueled engine has it's own oxidizer on board, typically LOX. But not always.
> 
> Solid fueled boosters are said to use a propellent that contains it's own oxidizer so the inconsistency spreads the confusion. *They too are rockets but we call them "boosters". *Why? I haven't a clue!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *projectile, bullet*
> Cannon shells are referred to as "projectiles" or "shells" when over a certain diameter and bullets when smaller.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/104441-quasi-ballistic-missiles.html#post1685955



Weren't they made by Tipu Sultan before the Chinese??


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## foxhound

*For those indicating that India did not have a cold start doctrine, the following article is of interest - hence Pakistan's NASR Missile has provided a further blow to this wrong cold start doctrine. Please note, DETTERRENCE IS THE KEY in a nuclear region. Lack of communication, misunderstanding and 'crazy' elements in both governments could escalate and result in an inadvertant risk of a nuclear exchange - note there are no winners in a real nuclear conflict:*
























ref:INDIAN ARMY VALIDATES ITS COLD START WAR DOCTRINE

INDIAN ARMY VALIDATES ITS COLD START WAR DOCTRINE 

by Dr. Subhash Kapila 

Introductory Background: 

The Indian Army unveiled its new war doctrine, a year ago, on 28 April 2004, and naming it as the Cold Start War Doctrine. Thereafter, in ensuing twelve months, the new war doctrine was circulated to all the Army Commands for discussion and comments at formation levels. In tandem, the Army Training Command (ARTRAC) and the Army War College were tasked to fine-tune the operational concepts of the doctrine. 

Before moving further, it needs to be stressed that neither the Congress Government of the day nor the Indian Army should get lulled into complacency by the so called peace-process offensive launched by General Musharraf. While the politicians and the media may term this peace-process as irreversible, India s military history and military logic does not suggest so. Hence the Indian Armys formulation of new war doctrines and validating the operational concepts through exercises is a timely step. 

While the Indian Army understandably, did not release the finer text of this new war doctrine, except for some salient characteristics, this author with his exposures at the Royal British Army Staff College Camberly, NATO Armies and US Army in Germany, Japan and South Korea could analyse in great detail the Cold Start War Doctrine with special reference to Indian conditions. Readers may refer to the following SAAG Papers of this author:

India's New Cold Start War Doctrine Strategically Reviewed. (SAAG Paper No. 991 dated 04.05.2004) 
Indian Armys New Cold Start War Doctrine Strategically Reviewed-Part II: Additional Imperatives (SAAG Paper No.1013 dated 01.06.2004). 
Following the publication of the above two papers of this author, other websites in India and Pakistan reproduced these papers and generated an exciting debate on the pros and cons. In fact on one website, the debate still continues, even after a year. 

Cold Start War Doctrine- The Military Significance in the South Asian Context:

The military significance of the Cold Start War Doctrine in the South Asian contest is being highlighted for the benefit of new readers, who may not have gone through the earlier papers referred above. 

The major points of military significance in the South Asian context can be analysed as under:

The Indian Army after 50 years or so of defensive mindsets has finally put itself in an offensive operations mode. The defensive mind-set was imposed on the Indian Army by the political leadership of India who shied away and did not have the political will to use military power to secure the countrys national security interests. 
Indian Army has indicated that it now has plans and is ready to act offensively against Pakistan , or any other South Asian actor indulging in proxy war and terrorism against India . 
Indian Army will now be prepared to undertake offensive military operations at the very outset of hostilities breaking out. This is to deny Pakistan , or any other hostile South Asian state from counting on external intervention by their external patrons. 
India has in declaratory terms enunciated that it will undertake offensive operations short of nuclear war 
Though not in declaratory terms, but implicit in its intentions to bring the switch to offensive operations mode as a key element of strategy, India may also be conveying that military intervention or pre-emptive military strikes could be also a military option in South Asia . 

Extending this analysis into the nuclear warfare domain, one could say that the addition to Indias Draft Nuclear Doctrine that India would retaliate with nuclear weapons if Indian Armed Forces are subjected to nuclear, biological or chemical strikes, would provide a nuclear umbrella to Cold Start War Doctrine offensive strikes into Pakistan. 

The Indian Army and the Indian Air Force has commenced the process of validation of the operational concepts of the new war doctrine. The first major exercise in this process, Exercise VAJRA SHAKTI took place in early May 2005 in the Punjab sector. 

Ex VAJRA SHAKTI would be followed by a series of other exercises in the Rajasthan Sector in winter. 

Ex VAJRA SHAKTI- The Salient Features: 

Ex VAJRA SHAKTI was a 10 day exercise which took place in early May 2005. Ex VAJRA SHAKTI involved exercising an infantry division and an independent mechanized brigade of 11 Corps. along with associated armoured elements, integral to the Corps, to carry put offensive strikes at the outbreak of hostilities. 

The significance of Ex. VAJRA SHAKTI lies in the fact that for the first time the Indian Army exercised an erstwhile defensive operations holding Corps in the Western Sector in offensive operations. Such defensive Corps would now be termed as Pivot Corps. These Pivot Corps while defensively preventing any Pakistani military adventurism into Indian territory , will concurrently launch offensive operations into enemy territory which could then be exploited by other strike formations. 

The salient features of Ex. VAJRA SHAKTI, as collated from open sources, were as under:

Offensive strike operations were carried out by a Pivot Corps employing from its own resources an infantry division, armoured regiments and an independent mechanized brigade. 
The above offensive operations were exercised against the backdrop of a Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare threat from the enemy. 
Special Forces were employed in pre-emptive strikes for furtherance of the offensive operations. 
Since Cold Start War Doctrine envisages swift, day and night operations, the offensive strikes were supported by advanced C4I (Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence) network and systems. 
The above included the establishment of a Force Multiplication Command Post for integration and flow of real-time information of the enemy to combat units, collected by satellites, UAVs, aerial reconnaissance, radar networks, communication intercepts etc. Digital photographs of the enemy areas were transmitted real time to forward combat units, facilitating speedy decision-making by Commanders. 
Exercising of all of the above could be termed as the commencement of network-centric warfare in the Indian Army. 
Information-dominance of the battlefield was practiced by use of electronic warfare systems. 
The Indian Air Force provided 130 sorties for this exercise in a variety of roles from reconnaissance, fighter aircraft strikes, attack helicopter operations and Special Forces operations. 
It can be assumed that based on the lessons learnt in Ex VAJRA SHAKTI and their review, the other PIVOT CORPS of the Indian Army would similarly be exercised.

Some Points for Consideration by Indian Army Commanders: 

The Indian Army has never lacked in military competence, drive and determination in the conduct of military operations with the exception of the 1962 debacle, which squarely in terms of responsibility lay on Prime Minister Nehru, Indias diplomats in China, Nehrus close advisors and the Intelligence Bureau chief. Taking-off from this, Indian Army Commanders in relation to Cold Start War Doctrine need to ponder on the following points.

Political decision-making and directions by the Government of the day; what systems need to be put into place for speedy political decision-making and the ensuing crisis management, so that military operations are not ham-strung and surprise, the most essential ingredient of this doctrine, is not lost. 
Offensive operations of this doctrine would necessarily rest on effective collection, collation and assessment of enemy information, in the pre-ceding peace-time period. Intelligence has been India s bane, and the Indian Army needs to be persistent on this score with the Government. 
Offensive operations require an offensive mind-set in both officers and men. In the last 50 years or so, the Indian Army stood be-numbed with defensive mind-sets imposed by the political leadership. Indian Army Commanders need to set a peronal example in terms of boldness and professional audacity themselves and further motivate and imbue their commands by sustained motivation drives. Military audacity should be the hall-mark of Indian Army professionalism at all levels. 
War preparedness of a high-order at all times in terms of strategic reserves of weapons, equipment, ammunition, accessories and petroleum, diesel and aviation funl is required. Cold Start War Doctrine offensive operations cannot be launched on incomplete inventories. 
Similarly, strategic assets should not be worn out in peacetime disaster management. It was shocking to read in the media that the Indian Air Force aircraft meant for air-refueling in long range strikes, being used for carrying fuel to Kashmir Valley in the last winter; similar use of transport aircraft and helicopters is inexcusable. The Government should create separate assets for disaster management and not use Armed Forces assets earmarked for military operations, which as it is are difficult to replace due to inordinate delays generated by politicizing defence acquisitions, with change of governments. 
Concluding Observations: 

Military exercises are an invaluable component of a nations war-preparedness. War preparedness has to be an ongoing, vigilant and persistent effort. It cannot be based on the reading of intentions of nations adversary by the political leadership of the day. We went wrong in 1962 because of this fatal flaw. While peace proces can be perused, so also war preparedness with greater intensity and vigour. 

Ex VAJRA SHAKTI has therefore been a welcome development. It needs to be followed up by similar exercises by the PIVOT CORPS and more importantly by the combat commands which will provide the cutting edge of Cold Start War Doctrine offensive strikes. The operational concepts need to be validated and fine-tuned by repeated exercises of this type. Then only victory will be ensured in war.

(The author is an International Relations and Strategic Affairs analyst. He is the Consultant, Strategic Affairs with South Asia Analysis Group. Email drsubhashkapila )

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## Dazzler

foxhound said:


> *For those indicating that India did not have a cold start doctrine, the following article is of interest - hence Pakistan's NASR Missile has provided a further blow to this wrong cold start doctrine. Please note, DETTERRENCE IS THE KEY in a nuclear region. Lack of communication, misunderstanding and 'crazy' elements in both governments could escalate and result in an inadvertant risk of a nuclear exchange - note there are no winners in a real nuclear conflict:*
> 
> 
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> 
> ref:INDIAN ARMY VALIDATES ITS COLD START WAR DOCTRINE
> 
> INDIAN ARMY VALIDATES ITS COLD START WAR DOCTRINE
> 
> by Dr. Subhash Kapila
> 
> Introductory Background:
> 
> The Indian Army unveiled its new war doctrine, a year ago, on 28 April 2004, and naming it as the &#8220;Cold Start War Doctrine&#8221;. Thereafter, in ensuing twelve months, the new war doctrine was circulated to all the Army Commands for discussion and comments at formation levels. In tandem, the Army Training Command (ARTRAC) and the Army War College were tasked to fine-tune the operational concepts of the doctrine.
> 
> Before moving further, it needs to be stressed that neither the Congress Government of the day nor the Indian Army should get lulled into complacency by the so called &#8220;peace-process&#8221; offensive launched by General Musharraf. While the politicians and the media may term this &#8220;peace-process&#8221; as &#8220;irreversible&#8221;, India &#8217;s military history and military logic does not suggest so. Hence the Indian Army&#8217;s formulation of new war doctrines and validating the operational concepts through exercises is a timely step.
> 
> While the Indian Army understandably, did not release the finer text of this new war doctrine, except for some salient characteristics, this author with his exposures at the Royal British Army Staff College Camberly, NATO Armies and US Army in Germany, Japan and South Korea could analyse in great detail the Cold Start War Doctrine with special reference to Indian conditions. Readers may refer to the following SAAG Papers of this author:
> 
> &#8220;India's New &#8220;Cold Start&#8221; War Doctrine Strategically Reviewed.&#8221; (SAAG Paper No. 991 dated 04.05.2004)
> &#8220;Indian Army&#8217;s New &#8220;Cold Start&#8221; War Doctrine Strategically Reviewed-Part II: Additional Imperatives (SAAG Paper No.1013 dated 01.06.2004).
> Following the publication of the above two papers of this author, other websites in India and Pakistan reproduced these papers and generated an exciting debate on the pros and cons. In fact on one website, the debate still continues, even after a year.
> 
> &#8220;Cold Start War Doctrine&#8221;- The Military Significance in the South Asian Context:
> 
> The military significance of the &#8220;Cold Start War Doctrine&#8221; in the South Asian contest is being highlighted for the benefit of new readers, who may not have gone through the earlier papers referred above.
> 
> The major points of military significance in the South Asian context can be analysed as under:
> 
> The Indian Army after 50 years or so of defensive mindsets has finally put itself in an offensive operations mode. The defensive mind-set was imposed on the Indian Army by the political leadership of India who shied away and did not have the political will to use military power to secure the country&#8217;s national security interests.
> Indian Army has indicated that it now has plans and is ready to act offensively against Pakistan , or any other South Asian actor indulging in proxy war and terrorism against India .
> Indian Army will now be prepared to undertake offensive military operations at the very outset of hostilities breaking out. This is to deny Pakistan , or any other hostile South Asian state from counting on external intervention by their external patrons.
> India has in declaratory terms enunciated that it will undertake offensive operations short of nuclear war
> Though not in declaratory terms, but implicit in its intentions to bring the switch to offensive operations mode as a key element of strategy, India may also be conveying that military intervention or pre-emptive military strikes could be also a military option in South Asia .
> 
> Extending this analysis into the nuclear warfare domain, one could say that the addition to India&#8217;s Draft Nuclear Doctrine that India would retaliate with nuclear weapons if Indian Armed Forces are subjected to nuclear, biological or chemical strikes, would provide a nuclear umbrella to Cold Start War Doctrine offensive strikes into Pakistan.
> 
> The Indian Army and the Indian Air Force has commenced the process of validation of the operational concepts of the new war doctrine. The first major exercise in this process, Exercise VAJRA SHAKTI took place in early May 2005 in the Punjab sector.
> 
> Ex VAJRA SHAKTI would be followed by a series of other exercises in the Rajasthan Sector in winter.
> 
> Ex VAJRA SHAKTI- The Salient Features:
> 
> Ex VAJRA SHAKTI was a 10 day exercise which took place in early May 2005. Ex VAJRA SHAKTI involved exercising an infantry division and an independent mechanized brigade of 11 Corps. along with associated armoured elements, integral to the Corps, to carry put offensive strikes at the outbreak of hostilities.
> 
> The significance of Ex. VAJRA SHAKTI lies in the fact that for the first time the Indian Army exercised an erstwhile defensive operations holding Corps in the Western Sector in offensive operations. Such defensive Corps would now be termed as &#8220;Pivot Corps&#8221;. These Pivot Corps while defensively preventing any Pakistani military adventurism into Indian territory , will concurrently launch offensive operations into enemy territory which could then be exploited by other strike formations.
> 
> The salient features of Ex. VAJRA SHAKTI, as collated from open sources, were as under:
> 
> Offensive strike operations were carried out by a Pivot Corps employing from its own resources an infantry division, armoured regiments and an independent mechanized brigade.
> The above offensive operations were exercised against the backdrop of a Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare threat from the enemy.
> Special Forces were employed in pre-emptive strikes for furtherance of the offensive operations.
> Since Cold Start War Doctrine envisages swift, day and night operations, the offensive strikes were supported by advanced C4I (Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence) network and systems.
> The above included the establishment of a Force Multiplication Command Post for integration and flow of real-time information of the enemy to combat units, collected by satellites, UAVs, aerial reconnaissance, radar networks, communication intercepts etc. Digital photographs of the enemy areas were transmitted real time to forward combat units, facilitating speedy decision-making by Commanders.
> Exercising of all of the above could be termed as the commencement of network-centric warfare in the Indian Army.
> Information-dominance of the battlefield was practiced by use of electronic warfare systems.
> The Indian Air Force provided 130 sorties for this exercise in a variety of roles from reconnaissance, fighter aircraft strikes, attack helicopter operations and Special Forces operations.
> It can be assumed that based on the lessons learnt in Ex VAJRA SHAKTI and their review, the other PIVOT CORPS of the Indian Army would similarly be exercised.
> 
> Some Points for Consideration by Indian Army Commanders:
> 
> The Indian Army has never lacked in military competence, drive and determination in the conduct of military operations with the exception of the 1962 debacle, which squarely in terms of responsibility lay on Prime Minister Nehru, India&#8217;s diplomats in China, Nehru&#8217;s close advisors and the Intelligence Bureau chief. Taking-off from this, Indian Army Commanders in relation to Cold Start War Doctrine need to ponder on the following points.
> 
> Political decision-making and directions by the Government of the day; what systems need to be put into place for speedy political decision-making and the ensuing crisis management, so that military operations are not ham-strung and surprise, the most essential ingredient of this doctrine, is not lost.
> Offensive operations of this doctrine would necessarily rest on effective collection, collation and assessment of enemy information, in the pre-ceding peace-time period. Intelligence has been India &#8217;s bane, and the Indian Army needs to be persistent on this score with the Government.
> Offensive operations require an &#8220;offensive mind-set&#8221; in both officers and men. In the last 50 years or so, the Indian Army stood be-numbed with defensive mind-sets imposed by the political leadership. Indian Army Commanders need to set a peronal example in terms of boldness and professional audacity themselves and further motivate and imbue their commands by sustained motivation drives. Military audacity should be the hall-mark of Indian Army professionalism at all levels.
> War preparedness of a high-order at all times in terms of strategic reserves of weapons, equipment, ammunition, accessories and petroleum, diesel and aviation funl is required. Cold Start War Doctrine offensive operations cannot be launched on incomplete inventories.
> Similarly, strategic assets should not be worn out in peacetime disaster management. It was shocking to read in the media that the Indian Air Force aircraft meant for air-refueling in long range strikes, being used for carrying fuel to Kashmir Valley in the last winter; similar use of transport aircraft and helicopters is inexcusable. The Government should create separate assets for disaster management and not use Armed Forces assets earmarked for military operations, which as it is are difficult to replace due to inordinate delays generated by politicizing defence acquisitions, with change of governments.
> Concluding Observations:
> 
> Military exercises are an invaluable component of a nation&#8217;s war-preparedness. War preparedness has to be an ongoing, vigilant and persistent effort. It cannot be based on the reading of intentions of nation&#8217;s adversary by the political leadership of the day. We went wrong in 1962 because of this fatal flaw. While peace proces can be perused, so also war preparedness with greater intensity and vigour.
> 
> Ex VAJRA SHAKTI has therefore been a welcome development. It needs to be followed up by similar exercises by the PIVOT CORPS and more importantly by the combat commands which will provide the cutting edge of Cold Start War Doctrine offensive strikes. The operational concepts need to be validated and fine-tuned by repeated exercises of this type. Then only victory will be ensured in war.
> 
> (The author is an International Relations and Strategic Affairs analyst. He is the Consultant, Strategic Affairs with South Asia Analysis Group. Email drsubhashkapila )


 
no no i does not exist buddy, a member here knows more than the IA Chief and any researcher

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## The Deterrent

foxhound said:


> *For those indicating that India did not have a cold start doctrine, the following article is of interest - hence Pakistan's NASR Missile has provided a further blow to this wrong cold start doctrine. Please note, DETTERRENCE IS THE KEY in a nuclear region. Lack of communication, misunderstanding and 'crazy' elements in both governments could escalate and result in an inadvertant risk of a nuclear exchange - note there are no winners in a real nuclear conflict:*



BTW these images represent the truth.....


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## notorious_eagle

nabil_05 said:


> no no i does not exist buddy, a member here knows more than the IA Chief and any researcher


 
It does exist, everyone knows that. Thats another story they couldn't implement a doctrine like Cold Start because they simply dont have the capability, thus its just face saving for them to simply deny the existence of this doctrine.


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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> mamooo look thread from starting there is tons of .


 
oops i was just skimming


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## lionheart1

where do you fix your nuke ...lol


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## Silk

lionheart1 said:


> where do you fix your nuke ...lol



I regret that Indians have hardly the ability to write more then the average garbage written on BRF. Surely Lionheart knows exactly what kind of weapon it is. He can see through with his radiation eyes. Maybe he should assist with all the Indian programs.


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## Imran Khan

lionheart1 said:


> where do you fix your nuke ...lol


 
you can ask with out lol so any serious person will take your qes seriously dude

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## SQ8

It is depressing to say this..
But unfortunately.. I received a PM whose views.. while I did not entirely agree with .. were not unfounded.
The quality of posts.. from the other side.. 
has recently gone completely downhill..
A only one or two sane voices are heard now.
The rest are .. ironically.. living up the fabled reputation of their kith and kin written in the history books taught in the lower secondary classes..
I would be amusing to believe one person's theory.. that the world cup has gone to their heads.. 
And the belligerents from this side have found all the reason to chide us mods about our leniency regarding our neighbors..with a non-characteristic-al 
"I TOLD YOU SO".

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## Secret Service

it is a very useful missile in mountainous region like Kashmir ...


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## JonAsad

Bossman said:


> Finally a realisation on part of the mods. These people reinforce their own stererotype and the fact that we cannot coexist with them.* The solution is simple first ban them from this site and next nuke the country.*


 
That made me laugh out loud


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## ares

Santro said:


> It is depressing to say this..
> But unfortunately.. I received a PM whose views.. while I did not entirely agree with .. were not unfounded.
> The quality of posts.. from the other side..
> has recently gone completely downhill..
> A only one or two sane voices are heard now.
> The rest are .. ironically.. living up the fabled reputation of their kith and kin written in the history books taught in the lower secondary classes..
> I would be amusing to believe one person's theory.. that the world cup has gone to their heads..
> And the belligerents from this side have found all the reason to chide us mods about our leniency regarding our neighbors..with a non-characteristic-al
> "I TOLD YOU SO".


 
I believe as a Mod of international forum one should be blind to "sides"..There are no sides but individual posters..up until recently a lot of improvement had brought to the moderation technique and system had become a lot fairer..equal punishment were given for equivalent posts...are you considering to reverse that sys?

This forum which had been on a decline for last few months..picked up again..with direct intervention and lot of effort from the Webmaster himself.

But as you can see there are plenty of bad apples in each basket.. after all "Tali ek hath se to nahi baje ti."
You won't have too look far to seek a few in Pakistani baskets..but that is if you want to and believe in equality of all posters irrespective of nationality !!


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## SQ8

ares said:


> I believe as a Mod of international forum one should be blind to "sides"..There are no sides but individual posters..up until recently a lot of improvement had brought to the moderation technique and system had become a lot fairer..equal punishment were given for equivalent posts...are you considering to reverse that sys?
> 
> This forum which had been on a decline for last few months..picked up again..with direct intervention and lot of effort from the Webmaster himself.
> 
> But as you can see there are plenty of bad apples in each basket.. after all "Tali ek hath se to nahi baje ti."
> You won't have too look far to seek a few in Pakistani baskets..but that is if you want to and believe in equality of all posters irrespective of nationality !!


 
Find me an International Indian oriented forum that gives even 1/2 the unbiased opinion .. 
and ill leave my job.

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## ares

Santro said:


> Find me an International Indian oriented forum that gives even 1/2 the unbiased opinion ..
> and ill leave my job.


 
There is your reason..why there are so many Indians on this forum.
In the beginning it use totally an unbiased forum ..but things began to go downhill as participation of the founding members became less and moderation was left in charge of new generation of mods ..but lately things seem to have been improving since webmasters intervention ....what you are experiencing is an side effect of that intervention.

This fourm boasts that it is one of most professional defense forum out there..so why do you want to compare with Indian forum..if you find them biased?..I believe this forum has carved a niche for itself.


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## SQ8

ares said:


> There is your reason..why there are so many Indians on this forum.
> In the beginning it use totally an unbiased forum ..but things began to go downhill as participation of the founding members became less and moderation was left in charge of new generation of mods ..but lately things seem to have been improving since webmasters intervention ....what you are experiencing is an side effect of that intervention.
> 
> This fourm boasts that it is one of most professional defense forum out there..so why do you want to compare with Indian forum..if you find them biased?..I believe this forum has carved a niche for itself.


 
Then please guide your countrymen .. as we try our best to guide ours to post in the spirit of your praise for this site.
they dont have to hold favorable views.. but there are decent ways of expressing it.
As I make clear time and time again on my countrymen.. and those from other areas of the world.

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## ares

Santro said:


> Then please guide your countrymen .. as we try our best to guide ours to post in the spirit of your praise for this site.
> they dont have to hold favorable views.. but there are decent ways of expressing it.
> As I make clear time and time again on my countrymen.. and those from other areas of the world.


 
This will be last post on this topic.

I guess I have not able to get across to you ..what I am trying to say is 

This is an international forum and you are a neutral Moderator..there is no 'my countrymen' or 'your countrymen' here.. but individual posters irrespective of the flag and each poster is responsible/answerable for his own posts and not anybody else's but as moderator I believe you are responsible for all posters not just your own countrymen.


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## Bossman

ares said:


> This will be last post on this topic.
> 
> I guess I have not able to get across to you ..what I am trying to say is
> 
> This is an international forum and you are a neutral Moderator..there is no 'my countrymen' or 'your countrymen' here.. but individual posters irrespective of the flag and each poster is responsible/answerable for his own posts and not anybody else's but as moderator I believe you are responsible for all posters not just your own countrymen.



If you can read its called "Pakistan Defence" and not "international Defence" Its a Pakistani forum, kabeesh!

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## ares

Bossman said:


> If you can read its called "Pakistan Defence" and not "international Defence" Its a Pakistani forum, kabeesh!


 
Perhaps you should present your views to the forum management..on why ones donning the Pakistani flag, should have special privileges and rest all should be treated as second class citizens/ posters.

If they agree with you, then come back.


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## nightcrawler

Santro said:


> Then please guide your countrymen .. as we try our best to guide ours to post in the spirit of your praise for this site.
> they dont have to hold favorable views.. but there are decent ways of expressing it.
> As I make clear time and time again on my countrymen.. and those from other areas of the world.


Now I know the validity of TWO NATION THEORY

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## Safriz

I visited this thread when it was started and it was a missile test we were discussinb? I was enjoying reading all those tecnnical data,diagrams and knolwledgable comments. What went wrong with the thread? Why are we having a pointless argument?


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## mjnaushad

safriz said:


> I visited this thread when it was started and it was a missile test we were discussinb? I was enjoying reading all those tecnnical data,diagrams and knolwledgable comments. What went wrong with the thread? Why are we having a pointless argument?


 
Because no matter how hard you try some members will keep insisting....

Its a rocket not a missile.....

It will have no effect on cold war doctrine...

Wait wait there is no cold war doctrine...

No i think there is...

Again its a rocket...

In war PAKFA and su 30 will bomb all our bases and NASR so this missile means nothing....

You can't fit nuke in such small missile *read rocket*....

Its a copy of another missile.....

But its a copy and a rocket...











Do i need to type more how the thread derailed.

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## JonAsad

^^ it was out of the blue development- no one was expecting it- even me was surprised - but the Indians are shocked and still cannot believe it- and thats natural to them- but it would have been better for the forum if Indian members accept it and move along with the discussion instead of coming up with some silly excuses and questions.


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## Bratva

^ Some Armies are so network centric and have super duper satellites and Sam coverage that will destroy NASR during it's flight as well as they can destroy NASR before launching 

And if some one invade Pakistan "First". And we launch Nuclear tipped Nasr in our self defense. they will also nuke us.


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## khurasaan1

mjnaushad said:


> Because no matter how hard you try some members will keep insisting....
> 
> Its a rocket not a missile.....
> 
> It will have no effect on cold war doctrine...
> 
> Wait wait there is no cold war doctrine...
> 
> No i think there is...
> 
> Again its a rocket...
> 
> In war PAKFA and su 30 will bomb all our bases and NASR so this missile means nothing....
> 
> You can't fit nuke in such small missile *read rocket*....
> 
> Its a copy of another missile.....
> 
> But its a copy and a rocket...
> Do i need to type more how the thread derailed.


 
Bro. who cares what pplz say ....but as long as it hits the enemy targets with nukes ..just that what we want ...let the pplz have speculations and get confused in their games....

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## khurasaan1

mafiya said:


> ^ Some Armies are so network centric and have super duper satellites and Sam coverage that will destroy NASR during it's flight as well as they can destroy NASR before launching :P


 
Yes this is the very important factor ...cuz it needa be very secret in its location thats why is gonna be mobile....yea when is fired , its speed wont let any missile catchup with it , cuz its extremely hard to hit short range such kinda missiles with accuracy....and our missile is specially designed to overlast the speed of any anti missile system....Insha-Allah....
So Alhamdolillah u can say its a fire and forget Missile in its all sense...and let the enemy beatup their heads to counter it....
its gonna show stars during broad daylight and takes away their sleep at night for good (to our enemies).....Insha-Allah


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## Safriz

The proof is in the pudding. If they were that immune to missiles,they wont be bothered by Pakistan or any other country developing missiles. But the botheration is visible,and that proved that they are not immune to Pakistani missile threat as you suggest here. One of the big disadvantages of being network centriv is that if the chain is broken,they will be lost sheep. For example if the awacs or the reconescence satellite gets shot down?
For a system like nasr which has minimal reliance on external resources under extreme ciruimstances such minimalist systems can be far more useful and reliable than your network centric.
Extreme circumstances such as a high altitude high yeild nuclear detonation which will disrupt earth's ionsphere,and radio communication will be effected , and satellites may go offline due to emp burst. What will your netwok centric army will do then?

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## S-A-B-E-R->

for any body who thinks its a rocket 
YouTube - Pakistan successfully conducts first test of Hatf 9 (NASR) Multi-Tube Ballistic Missile






both the videos show the initial energy bleeding manuver for test only enviorment thhad more than NASR

this manuver can only be done with guided missles not rocket the movement in NASR is very minute but initially it can be seen .

for those who think a nuke this small cant be built well than wt abt brifcase nukes?


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## nightcrawler

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> for any body who thinks its a rocket
> YouTube - Pakistan successfully conducts first test of Hatf 9 (NASR) Multi-Tube Ballistic Missile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both the videos show the* initial energy bleeding manuver* for test only enviorment thhad more than NASR
> 
> this manuver can only be done with guided missles not rocket the movement in NASR is very minute but initially it can be seen .
> 
> for those who think a nuke this small cant be built well than wt abt brifcase nukes?


 
This isn't BLEEDING maneuver; bleeding maneuver are done via gas dynamic control; this is :
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-mi...ti-tube-ballistic-missile-25.html#post1689709 

Plus it has been argued much that the latter maneuvering mechanism is more potent & is more capable to pull out more G's


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nightcrawler said:


> This isn't BLEEDING maneuver; bleeding maneuver are done via gas dynamic control; this is :
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-mi...ti-tube-ballistic-missile-25.html#post1689709
> 
> Plus it has been argued much that the latter maneuvering mechanism is more potent & is more capable to pull out more G's


 
ok im not very educated in the subject so i beleave u but my point is the NASAR does MANUVER /COURSE ADJUSTMENT in th start of its flight which i thaught was the same as thhad missle ,even if im wrong the claims that its just a un guided rocket r shattered by the NASAR launch video ,right?

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## S-A-B-E-R->

^^ i will also like to add that isnt the russian method just to increase the speed of spin of the rocket and is nt ideal for missles ?


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## nightcrawler

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> ok im not very educated in the subject so i beleave u but my point is the NASAR does MANUVER /COURSE ADJUSTMENT in th start of its flight which i thaught was the same as thhad missle ,even if im wrong the claims that its just a un guided rocket r shattered by the NASAR launch video ,right?


 Yes you got that right


S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> ^^ i will also like to add that isnt the russian method *just to increase the speed of spin *of the rocket and is nt ideal for missles ?


 The missile is *already *spinning even if don't bleed energy or use [in case of Nasr] gimbled thrust...& your bold part I am afraid not right. Russian method basically is more simple simply because the mechanical movement of nozzle isn't necessary so the actuators & more especially the moving parts aren't architecture in the missile body; so the former method is more simple & more tension-free

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## bandmaster

So, the PA is willing to defer nuclear C&C decisions to division commanders and non-strategic units? Interesting...
The risk of detection and neutralization from this close to a battlefield is quite high. No guessing what an NFU policy says about imminent or failed NBC attack.
Sub-Kt device implies Pu based warheads. Exploding one of these over your own territory is absolutely nonsensical.


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## Bossman

bandmaster said:


> Sub-Kt device implies Pu based warheads. Exploding one of these over your own territory is absolutely nonsensical.



This is what's wrong with Indian armchair as well as actual strategist. They continue to look at Indo Pakistan nuclear standoff in context of cold war. In our case the rules, if any, are totally different. Cold War MAD was based on both the parties acting rationally. Our MAD is based on irrational behaviour. For us it is simple, we are ready to go down but we will take you down with us. So yes, we have low threshold for using nukes and we will use it on our soil. If your military wants to test our resolve they are welcome to do so. Do you think your political or military leadership will be willing to take that risk for a limited goal of "punishing Pakistan" after an alleged terrorist attack, which is supposed to be the goal of Cold Start? Even after the 2002 mobilization your businessmen were lobbying your government to backdown as the mobilization was a threat to making money. Just imagine what the threat of an imminent nuclear conflict will do to Indian business confidence. In other words, ability of India to launch any sort of conventional attack on Pakistan is non-existent.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Perhaps they meant that 10-20 of these missiles can be fired form one mobile unit , and knock out enemy


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## Safriz

I think NASR is just the start of a series of simillar more sophosticated weapon systems. Pakistan has a history of building a whole family of missiles,one after the other. Perhaps they shoulnt have called this Hataf,as its different from Hataf family. Hopefully we will se Nasr variants soon. Keep your criticism coming,will be helpful for improvement of future multilainch missile systems.

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## The Deterrent

safriz said:


> I think NASR is just the start of a series of simillar more sophosticated weapon systems. Pakistan has a history of building a whole family of missiles,one after the other. Perhaps they shoulnt have called this Hataf,as its different from Hataf family. Hopefully we will se Nasr variants soon. Keep your criticism coming,will be helpful for improvement of future multilainch missile systems.


 
Actually what I think is that the name "Hatf" is assigned to a system that can deliver a nuclear payload....and for now,each and every "Hatf" can do the job...


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## hataf

there is a question in my mind from the start . . . . . . 
can we convert NASR into ABM system like PATRIOT


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## Safriz

hataf said:


> there is a question in my mind from the start . . . . . .
> can we convert NASR into ABM system like PATRIOT


 
The only missiles patriots have successfully downed were the medieval skuds. I havent heard patriots being succesfully used againt a more modern missile?


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## fatman17

*India should think twice*

By S.m. Hali | Published: April 27, 2011

Pakistan has successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface-to-Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (Nasr), much to the chagrin of Indian defence planners, as is evident from the Indian Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA) report titled Pakistan: Making Sense Of Nasr Ballistic Missile Test &#8211; Analysis. The IDSA report tries to nullify the analysis by the Pakistani experts. Undoubtedly, Nasr has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter ranges. With a range of 60km, Nasr carries both tactical nuclear and high-explosive conventional warheads. It is powered by a high-thrust, single-stage solid-propellant rocket motor. Nasr&#8217;s launch platform is a double-tube transporter erector launcher (TEL) capable of carrying two missiles with high accuracy and shoot-and-scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats. The test of Nasr is a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistan&#8217;s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. This is a new and very significant development because this latest missile system is in the category of tactical nuclear weapons. It is a low yield battlefield deterrent, which is capable of deterring and inflicting punishment on mechanised forces comprising armoured brigades and divisions. This was made possible because of miniaturisations to smallest level and it forecloses the Indian army&#8217;s options of Cold Start and proactive operations. The Indian military used to perceive gaps in the Pakistani side and was obsessed with finding space for limited war under the nuclear umbrella. Thus, it was amassing conventional weapons and had developed its Cold Start doctrine to be able to deal Pakistan a telling blow before it could retaliate with its nuclear weapons. India has been testing its Cold Start doctrine in various war games and military exercises, including the current corps level exercise &#8220;Vijayi Bhav&#8221;, in the Rajasthan desert and, at the same time, has been browbeating Pakistan. However, Nasr or &#8220;help&#8221;, which is also the title of one of the Quranic verses, will ably plug that gap and ensure that India is deterred from any such adventurism. With the development of Nasr, Indian planners will now think twice before considering options of limited war. Often the Indians start beating their chests and crying hoarse with their battle cries prematurely. In May 1998 too after conducting nuclear tests at Pokhran, the Indian defence planners and politicians were so convinced that Pakistan did not have nuclear weapons capability that they became ballistic with their threats and jingoism, forcing Pakistan&#8217;s hand in crossing the nuclear threshold and coming out of the closet. Having learnt no lessons, ex-Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor had announced: &#8220;The time has come for teaching Pakistan a lesson.&#8221; The General had been blinded by the so-called success of the Indian war games testing Cold Start, and thus he had broken into rhetoric.A few details of Nasr, gleaned from overt sources; it is akin to a guided artillery shell in the form of surface-to-surface missile (SSM). The Soviets had developed and used various types of such missiles, as a propellant and heavily fortified fixed installation target clearance weapon system in the battlefield. Nasr, however, can successfully target armoured and mechanised columns on the move with nearly pinpoint accuracy. Judging from the test flight video released, Nasr appears to follow a depressed trajectory, rather than typical ballistic trajectory that makes a lethal combination, when married to high manoeuvrability, high speed and short range; which will cause nightmares and throw a challenge to any anti-ballistic missile system. Comparing Nasr to the earlier versions of Hatf 1B and Hatf 1A, Nasr appears to be more stabilised in its flight. The use of terminal guidance enables the Nasr to be projected, as a quick response precision guided ballistic missile with extremely low circular error of probability (CEP) to take the heavily defended targets in a 60km radius. Its quick reaction time, low CEP, terminal guidance and lethal warhead make it far superior to a simple, unguided, multi-barrel rocket launcher system. The test fire and diameter of the warhead suggest that Pakistan has achieved the capability of deploying sub-kiloton yield tactical nuclear warhead appropriate for a sub-kiloton nuclear detonation, which if boosted with four to five gms of tritium, could yield a 10 to 20 KT nuclear detonation. When produced in bulk, it will wreak havoc in any battlefield scenario, penetrating the fog of war and striking a telling blow upon any belligerent. 

The writer is a political and defence analyst.

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## Skies

Good news for brothers. : ) Teach them.

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## nightcrawler

> _Nasr, however, can successfully target armoured and mechanised columns on the move with nearly pinpoint accuracy. Judging from the test flight video released, Nasr appears to follow a depressed trajectory, rather than typical ballistic trajectory that makes a lethal combination, when married to high manoeuvrability, high speed and short range; which will cause nightmares and throw a challenge to any anti-ballistic missile system._


*Most important point.*..if one realizes this really is Quasi-Ballistic & provided Pakistan is capable of doing such a thing; it indirectly means that we have achieved some leverage in computer calculations which for such trajectories not only should be precise & quick but also accurate for low CEP. One also should look at this* in conjunction* with the ongoing progress Chinese has displayed in Super computers or should I say ballistic computers...


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## fatman17

*Nasr: A ban or a boon?*


Posted on April 30, 2011

Zahir Kazmi


Hatf-IX (Nasr) missile test on April 19th brings two critical security issues into focus and these are the utility of so-called tactical nuclear weapons (TNWs) for deterrence and the concept of deterrence itself. Our use of Cold War literature and related lexicon in South Asian thinking is like carrying the latest map of New York to find our way in Rawalpindi&#8217;s maze. It gets you nowhere. Let me explain why.

With the new START in force and in the spirit of Lisbon Treaty, ambassadors from 10 European countries submitted a non-paper to NATO&#8217;s Secretary General on April 14th. They sought increased transparency and confidence with regard to TNWs in Europe. Their basic argument is flawed as there is nothing tactical about nuclear weapons.

Even after five decades since the so-called TNWs stirred the European teacup, their leaders are still trying to develop a common understanding of the role that these weapons play in the strategic doctrines of NATO and the Russian Federation for further reductions after new START and their ultimate elimination. It&#8217;s a haunting issue because they were unmindful in accepting American nuclear weapons on their soil and didn&#8217;t realise that the word &#8216;tactical&#8217; was probably used to make these politically palatable.

The advent of nukes and delivery systems changed the nature of warfare. Are nukes tactical or strategic? The answer &#8211; like beauty &#8211; lies in the eye of the beholder. The genie called TNW implies short-range, low destructive-yield weapons that can be used in battlefield against forces. Conversely, the strategic nuclear weapons are long-range, high-yield and are designed to destroy cities and strategic installations. In a way strategic weapons made the soldier on the front line safer than his family back home.

The short range-low yield weapons are &#8216;tactical&#8217; for the Americans and Russians because their own forces and cities are not affected. There are about 350 American TNWs in Europe, down from thousands during Cold War&#8217;s peak. The poor Europeans demand transparency concerning numbers, types, locations, command arrangements, operational status, and level of storage security. Their nightmare is increased by Russian insistence to train their TNWs on Europeans till the US keeps them and till Moscow perceives a threat from American ballistic missile defence shield in Europe.

Nuclear weapons are &#8216;strategic&#8217; only once their destructive power, reach and political fallout affect the states that created the related lexicon. Like Europeans, the unsuspecting Asians use Cold War gospels &#8211; no matter how inadequate &#8211; to judge their peculiar security issues. Hence the debate gets skewed and the decisions go awry too. South Asians, for instance, have increased the complexities of abstract concept of deterrence by adding prefixes like credible-minimum and minimum-credible &#8211; though with good measure in some ways.

Why is it that while the West &#8216;appears&#8217; to draw down its nuclear warheads and conventional forces, opposite is true for South Asia? Realpolitik offers four simple explanations. West is slowly shifting to economic and military alliances for its own benefit and also against rising Chinese power and resurging Russia. If their military industrial complex has to remain in business, it needs big markets like India. Thanks to the legacy of British rule South Asia is inimically prone to crisis because it has unsettled disputes, which if settled may send some weapons industry out of business. Finally, the China-containment policy coincides with Western mercantilist interests and thus motivates them to &#8220;franchise&#8221; their deterrence requirement to India. Propping up India stirs the South Asian power balance and brings Pakistan into equation.

Pakistan is the major non-NATO and also the major disenchanted US ally and both seem tied to the hip for latter&#8217;s interest in Afghanistan. While US wants a strong Pakistan, it also desires to strengthen India vis-à-vis China while maintaining a relationship with both on their own merit. Hypothetically, its America&#8217;s sovereign right to cultivate relations at the level it wants to but once its allies have bilateral issues-maintaining neutrality becomes a pipe dream.

The US has ended up creating apartheid against Pakistan by allowing India entry into export control cartels and lifting space technology related sanctions. This has rung alarms in Pakistan and compelled it to plug holes in doctrinal and military asymmetries with India. Consequently, developmental work in Pakistan takes a back seat and energies are diverted to address the imposed security dilemma.

Pakistan&#8217;s April 19th test of Hatf-IX (Nasr) is largely being viewed as the latest measure to foreclose India&#8217;s proactive Cold Start Doctrine (CSD). It is characterised by swift surgical strikes as part of evolving limited war concept without crossing Islamabad&#8217;s nuclear threshold. The test is destabilising if seen with US-Russia rivalry paradigm. But can that map be used to chart India-Pakistan territory?

Few dub this 60 km range nuclear capable missile as TNW and a shift in targeting policy from counter-value to counter-force. That means Pakistan has shifted from the popular western conception of deterrence by denial by relegating the option to obliterate poor city dwellers to that of attacking Indian forces that may threaten or cross into Pakistani territory. The latter is considered a nuclear war-fighting strategy. The &#8216;tactical&#8217; nature of missile also raises eyebrows over the likelihood of accidental use of nuclear weapons.

It makes one wonder if the deterrence has failed in South Asia. The test is probably one of the signals about growing frustration in Pakistan over US-led discrimination. Though Islamabad would like to avoid a nuclear war, yet win. Even with short range and smaller warhead capability, Nasr cannot be called a TNW-its use will have strategic consequences. Even if it&#8217;s a TNW, the concept has not run out of life as Russia and its NATO adversaries have sizable arsenals and their deterrence has not failed. Deterrence can be enhanced if the South Asian actors act rationally and move towards bilateral arms control measures.

Its short range indicates that Pakistan may be forced to use Nasr in its own territory against attacking Indian forces. Hence Pakistan is more likely to be self-deterred against its use. Except the desert portion, India-Pakistan border is heavily populated. Therefore, Nasr is both counter-force and counter-value weapon. Its initiation is on the heels of the Azm-e-Nau exercises that were done to check the viability of plans against CSD. Nasr adds another layer to deter India from even contemplating proactive operations.

Missile&#8217;s range and utility shows that it should be an Army Strategic Force Command (ASFC) asset, which is commanded by a senior three star general. ASFC is directly controlled by the apex National Command Authority, chaired by the PM, and the chances of accidental use are not thinkable.

The larger issue affecting South Asian arms race is US-India defence relationship that affects Pakistan. A stronger Pakistan is in American interest, assured US Ambassador in a recent speech. If that is so, it must translate into action instead of policies of discrimination and apartheid. That will be a crucial step to stabilise South Asia.

zahir.kazmi@gmail.com

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## The Deterrent

*Confirmed and Authentic news :*

*The eventual NASR vehicle will have FOUR launch tubes,and thus will be able to fire FOUR missiles.....the next test will prove this information...
The reason for 2 launch tubes this time was to provide a twin tube launch platform...so that the remaining tubes can be added on top.....
Hence NASR will become deadly by gaining the advantage of delivering x2 conventional payloads...*

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## Arsalan

Here was a firing test of short range tactical battle field ballistic missile, Nasr in April 2011 (April 19, 2011).
the event went unnoticed perhaps because it was a short range tactical missiles so people didn't cared much. however there were some significant achievements in this that are to be discussed below.






regards!

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## Arsalan

Pakistan Successfully conducted the 1st flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface to Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile Hatf IX (NASR). The missile has been developed to add deterrence value to Pakistan&#8217;s Strategic Weapons Development programme at shorter ranges. NASR, with a range of 60 km, carries nuclear warheads of appropriate yield with high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes. This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats.

The test was witnessed by Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai, Chairman NESCOM Mr Irfan Burney, senior officers from the strategic forces, scientists and engineers of strategic organizations







On this occasion, the Director General Strategic Plans Division, Lieutenant General (Retired) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said that the test was a very important milestone in consolidating Pakistan&#8217;s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum. He said in that hierarchy of military operations, the NASR Weapon System now provides Pakistan with short range missile capability in addition to the already available medium and long range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.






The successful test has also been warmly appreciated by the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan, who have congratulated the scientists and engineers on their outstanding success

Pakistan successfully Tests Fires Short Range Ballistic Missile Nasr (Hatf IX ) ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## Arsalan

Now the things that realy went unappreciated:
*The Nasr missile is aimed at countering India's cold start strategy* that entails rapid mobilization of armor at select points along the border to strike deep into Pakistan territory following a grave provocation from Pakistan, rather than traditional mobilization along the entire border that typically takes months. 

*Most importantly the diameter of the Nasr suggests that it is designed to carry a tactical nuclear warhead weighing less than 1 kg. **This would be a boosted fission device using less than 1 kg of weapons grade plutonium, boosted with up to 4-5 grams of tritium. The resulting yield would be in the sub-kiloton range and would be suitable for battlefield use. A sophisticated nuclear trigger mechanism would also be required.*. the development of this shows that Pakistan have managed to get this technology.

The Hatf IX Nasr seems to prove that Pakistan is capable of building small nuclear warheads for all types of delivery platforms and that the production of weapons grade plutonium by Pakistan will not be halted in the foreseeable future
*
According to the public relations organization of the Pakistani military, Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the Hatf IX was developed to "add deterrence value... at shorter ranges... with high accuracy, shoot and scoot attributes" for "quick response."* According to defense analysts and missile technology experts the system appears to have been developed as a "low-yield battlefield deterrent" targeted at "mechanized forces like armed brigades and divisions." Therefore it is believed by analysts that the system is deployed to deter and respond to India's "Cold Start Doctrine".

this is a great achievement indeed. a highly sophisticated mechanism being manufactured ingeniously. A true battle field deliminator in case of any Indian aggression. 
It is reported to have shoot and scoot attributes with mobile launcher, smaller size and can be quickly moved after firing. it is also reported to have great accuracy.

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## The Deterrent

This is one system that we can boast as 100% ours...totally our idea,our design,our efforts...

Additionally,the eventual launch vehicle will have 4 launch tubes,thus making it a very effective conventional weapon too...


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## Arsalan

AhaseebA said:


> This is one system that we can boast as 100% ours...totally our idea,our design,our efforts...
> 
> Additionally,the eventual launch vehicle will have 4 launch tubes,thus making it a very effective conventional weapon too...


 
same goes for most of the missiles in our arsenal. the basic idea for some initial designs might involve some foreign assistance but latter the program and new missiles were all developed ingeniously with 100% own effort!
the missile program of Pakistan is one sector that do not have foreign involvement.


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## The Deterrent

arsalanaslam123 said:


> same goes for most of the missiles in our arsenal. the basic idea for some initial designs might involve some foreign assistance but latter the program and new missiles were all developed ingeniously with 100% own effort!
> the missile program of Pakistan is one sector that do not have foreign involvement.


 
I meant that other systems somehow were either based on,derived from,reverse-engineered from foreign systems...But Nasr has none of these,everything about it is ours...


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## AMCA

AhaseebA said:


> I meant that other systems somehow were either based on,derived from,reverse-engineered from foreign systems...But Nasr has none of these,everything about it is ours...


 
May I know which radar and Launcher it uses?? Looks like a potent machine.


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## The Deterrent

AMCA said:


> May I know which radar and Launcher it uses?? Looks like a potent machine.


 
I don't think it needs a radar...

Members please guide about the specs of launch vehicle used...


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## AMCA

AhaseebA said:


> I don't think it needs a radar...
> 
> Members please guide about the specs of launch vehicle used...


 
so is it not a guided missile system?


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## The Deterrent

AMCA said:


> so is it not a guided missile system?


 
Oh...sorry,I misunderstood...

Exact specifications and the name of the guidance system will remain a secret...


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## AMCA

AhaseebA said:


> Oh...sorry,I misunderstood...
> 
> Exact specifications and the name of the guidance system will remain a secret...


 
I see, Strange indeed... Does Pakistan produce radars for systems such as these?


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## The Deterrent

AMCA said:


> I see, Strange indeed... Does Pakistan produce radars for systems such as these?


 
Yup...guidance systems for all Pakistani missiles (ballistic and cruise) are produced locally,by NESCOM...

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## DARKY

AhaseebA said:


> This is one system that we can boast as 100% ours...totally our idea,our design,our efforts...
> 
> Additionally,the eventual launch vehicle will have 4 launch tubes,thus making it a very effective conventional weapon too...



The more I look at NASR the more I realize its more of the evaluation of MBRLs systems.......with guidance part taking some space of fuel increasing the mass and reducing the range.....accordingly.......the small fins indicate that that it would perform manuverability at final stages......a cost effective way of development.....still that 60 km range is way too less for a guided missile in the battle field when the adversary posses longer ranged MBRLs which can effectively take out such batteries without getting within their striking range.


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## The Deterrent

DARKY said:


> The more I look at NASR the more I realize its more of the evaluation of MBRLs systems.......with guidance part taking some space of fuel increasing the mass and reducing the range.....accordingly.......the small fins indicate that that it would perform manuverability at final stages......a cost effective way of development.....still that 60 km range is way too less for a guided missile in the battle field when the adversary posses longer ranged MBRLs which can effectively take out such batteries without getting within their striking range.



It must be kept in mind that these vehicles are highly mobile...probably you ignored the term "shoot-and-scoot"...


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## DARKY

AhaseebA said:


> It must be kept in mind that these vehicles are highly mobile...probably you ignored the term "shoot-and-scoot"...


 
They'll only shoot if they have any thing to shoot at.......smerech MBRLs could take them out from 90km before they can even think of shooting at any thing.


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## The Deterrent

DARKY said:


> They'll only shoot if they have any thing to shoot at.......smerech MBRLs could take them out from 90km before they can even think of shooting at any thing.


 
Smerch MBRLs are unguided.....If Nasr is armed with a nuclear weapon,do you think that the vehicle will be parked in a desert,waiting to be detected and taken out?

Certainly not...I repeat again,Nasr is not a stationary system...even if it is detected,it is very difficult to take it out except for an airstrike...which can easily be countered by SAMs...


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## Last Hope

Assalam u Alaikum Arsalan.

We all know about Hatf IX (Nasr). Infact it was posted last week!
Here is a video:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=161146770613969





http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/100195-pakistans-wmd.html#post1952058

This thread is a 'Central' for Pakistan's WMD and info on it.
Regards.


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## DARKY

AhaseebA said:


> Smerch MBRLs are unguided.....*If Nasr is armed with a nuclear weapon*,do you think that the vehicle will be parked in a desert,waiting to be detected and taken out?
> 
> Certainly not...I repeat again,Nasr is not a stationary system...even if it is detected,it is very difficult to take it out except for an airstrike...which can easily be countered by SAMs...


 
Stop being like those childish types......I expect you to be more reasonable than them.....would any country risk a tactical nuke 1st strike when it would be definitely responded with a massive and strategic nuclear strike NASR would be best used with conventional warheads......guess your generals are smart enough.........and about smerch being unguided DRDO has already developed small chips and GPS antennas which can guide the rockets with pin point accuracy which would also be used on pinaka II which would have a range of 120 km......and on that note it would be about 12 rockets coming at those batteries at 4+ Mach speed........I wonder how could those TELs run away from such an assault.......and 1st get a system to bring down Airplanes at 300km......as they can easily launch brahmos cruise missiles from the airplanes......not to forget the nirbhay which could be launched even from 1000-1500 km.


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## Nav

Hey darky , brahamos is still far away from induction with air lunch plateform. Su-30's need structrul refits and MMRCA Unfit for brahamos.


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## TaimiKhan

DARKY said:


> They'll only shoot if they have any thing to shoot at.......smerech MBRLs could take them out from 90km before they can even think of shooting at any thing.


 
I am seriously considering to send you on a holiday. Wherever you come, you try to derail the thread with your nonsense. Anyone with little bit of knowledge about military affairs and common sense can know what he/she is talking about, but in your case it seems you lack both, but still poke your nose in such threads and derail with your Maha Bharat nonsense that we will do this and we will do that.

Instead of advising others to be not childish, atleast first leave aside your childish behavior of derailing threads and bringing in the mighty India where not needed.

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## The Deterrent

DARKY said:


> Stop being like those childish types......I expect you to be more reasonable than them.....would any country risk a tactical nuke 1st strike when it would be definitely responded with a massive and strategic nuclear strike NASR would be best used with conventional warheads......guess your generals are smart enough.........and about smerch being unguided DRDO has already developed small chips and GPS antennas which can guide the rockets with pin point accuracy which would also be used on pinaka II which would have a range of 120 km......and on that note it would be about 12 rockets coming at those batteries at 4+ Mach speed........I wonder how could those TELs run away from such an assault.......and 1st get a system to bring down Airplanes at 300km......as they can easily launch brahmos cruise missiles from the airplanes......not to forget the nirbhay which could be launched even from 1000-1500 km.


 
There lies the problem...

India will respond with massive nuclear retaliation if Indian troops are attacked with a sub-kiloton yield nuclear warhead inside Pakistan's territory...that is what you think...

We think,that it would be childish to respond to such an attack...and don't you even think for a second that India will remain unharmed in the final assault...nukes are designed to be used.

Coming to the topic...do you really think that there will be only one Nasr TEL present for the attacK?
Let me paint you a clearer picture...

We are talking about dozens of Nasr vehicles,approaching different launch areas and assisted by A-100 MBRLs...not to mention the dummies,which are a part of the strategy...designating and pin-pointing the specific vehicle which is constantly on the move is almost impossible...

One thing more...if a nuke can be mounted to a Nasr system...it can definitely be mounted on an Abdali or Ghaznavi system...Nasr is more of a message...

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## Bratva

AhaseebA said:


> There lies the problem...
> 
> India will respond with massive nuclear retaliation if Indian troops are attacked with a sub-kiloton yield nuclear warhead inside Pakistan's territory...that is what you think...
> 
> We think,that it would be childish to respond to such an attack...and don't you even think for a second that India will remain unharmed in the final assault...nukes are designed to be used.
> 
> Coming to the topic...do you really think that there will be only one Nasr TEL present for the attacK?
> Let me paint you a clearer picture...
> 
> We are talking about dozens of Nasr vehicles,approaching different launch areas and assisted by A-100 MBRLs...not to mention the dummies,which are a part of the strategy...designating and pin-pointing the specific vehicle which is constantly on the move is almost impossible...
> 
> One thing more...if a nuke can be mounted to a Nasr system...it can definitely be mounted on an Abdali or Ghaznavi system...Nasr is more of a message...


 
To Add some more points, Darky was so obsessed with his Retaliatory response, he forget to think, We should have to locate NASR FIRST.

Nasr is just 60 KM missile. So first thing came in to mind, in initial phase of Battle, Nasr will not be placed near border, but rather some where hidden in Sand made bunkers or away from the border, so that when OUR line of defense is breached, we retaliate back with NASR ONLY IN OUR LAND. which means NASR will not cross indian border and will remain in Pakistan and will hit all the rapidly moving divisions. Due to Shoot and Scoot ability and low fly path, which means, it is difficult to detect the nasr by the Rapidly Moving Indian Divisions as they don't have the radars with them to detect a very low flying missile hitting them

AND in initail phase of Battle, indians will be busy in locating our Other short and medium range ballistic missiles as well as Cruise missile sites, which will be immediate threat to them and as Haseeb pointed out NASR DECOYS will be used.

Third thing, NASR SYSTEM is AWAY from the battle field so, and indians UAV's which will be on look out for Nasr (In Pakistani Territories)will only see decoys if they are lucky to survive our MANPADS and Air Defences. In only ideal locations they will be able to locate Real NASR

Fourth THING which is most important. WHEN your SMerch Or PINAKA will fire their MBRLS, are you naive in your thinking that, you did not know Pakistan has Artillery finding Radars which can locate your artillery systems, and we will pay back in no time and our Respone will be as massive as yours will be Son....

A quote from Fatman-17 article on last page, which summarizes my whole Post

*



Its short range indicates that Pakistan may be forced to use Nasr in its own territory against attacking Indian forces. Hence Pakistan is more likely to be self-deterred against its use. Except the desert portion, India-Pakistan border is heavily populated. Therefore, Nasr is both counter-force and counter-value weapon.

Click to expand...

*

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## The Deterrent

^^^ Brilliant explanation...will use this post as referrence...


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## Arsalan

*@AMCA*, its a ballistic missile, using inertial guidance (terminal Guidance) system. developed by NESCOM

as i mentioned earlier, the new system have confirmed some remarkable achievements. we have talked about the capability to make low weight low yield nuclear warhead.
another thing is the launch system, it uses a tube launch system which have cube container to store and fire missiles. these are less costly to manufacture, easy to reload and require less maintenance compared to round tube!
this in itself is a plus point!

regards!


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## Arsalan

Last Hope said:


> Assalam u Alaikum Arsalan.
> 
> We all know about Hatf IX (Nasr). Infact it was posted last week!
> Here is a video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=161146770613969
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/100195-pakistans-wmd.html#post1952058
> 
> This thread is a 'Central' for Pakistan's WMD and info on it.
> Regards.


 i have searching will keyword "Nasr missile" sorry for the duplicate thread.
thankfully its been merged!


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## mcdonald

With the test of Prahaar ,Nasr has been outdated..
prahaar has double the range of nasr and 6 missiles on a truck.and speed of mach 2.2..
pakistan should test Nasr-2 with a range more than 150Km and single digit CEP soon


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## Fearless Warrior




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## Creder

60 km ? What's this a patakha missile ? What are they playing at


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## DARKY

mafiya said:


> To Add some more points, Darky was so obsessed with his Retaliatory response, he forget to think, We should have to locate NASR FIRST.
> 
> *Nasr is just 60 KM missile.* So first thing came in to mind, in initial phase of Battle, Nasr will not be placed near border, but rather some where hidden in Sand made bunkers or away from the border, so that when OUR line of defense is breached, we retaliate back with NASR ONLY IN OUR LAND. which means NASR will not cross indian border and will remain in Pakistan and will hit all the rapidly moving divisions. Due to Shoot and Scoot ability and low fly path, which means, it is difficult to detect the nasr by the



Thats what I am trying to say *NASR might be just a prototype for a longer ranged missile*
And let me tell you it is in *no way undetectable* rather It would well be detected in boost phase itself.......just after the launch by long range radars.......and by airborne ground mapping radars......as well as satellite mapping and tracking.



> Rapidly Moving Indian Divisions as they don't have the radars with them to detect a very low flying missile hitting them



If the moving Indian division is without Radar then why waste NASR even Mig 17 dropping dumb bombs would do the job........I guess we have systems like Tunguska, Akash etc......which can move faster than those heavy tanks !!......still a better system would be needed to tackle a BMs no doubt.......even in that case the LR terminal stage interceptors like Ashwin can come in to use.........but still lots of failure chances.



> AND in initail phase of Battle, indians will be busy in locating our Other short and medium range ballistic missiles as well as Cruise missile sites, which will be immediate threat to them and as Haseeb pointed out NASR DECOYS will be used.
> 
> Third thing, NASR SYSTEM is AWAY from the battle field so, and indians UAV's which will be on look out for Nasr (In Pakistani Territories)will only see decoys if they are lucky to survive our MANPADS and Air Defences. In only ideal locations they will be able to locate Real NASR



About getting busy with other SRBM and CMs..........thats what battle field management systems and network centric warfare is all about it won't be the moving columns worrying about them but thousands of computers and staff sitting all over India........The decoys as well as the real would be tracked with precision......by them.......and even satellite mapping and tracking would be used for tracking and early detection......besides the feed from different airborne tracking and detecting systems.....as well as ground radars.........both moving and static.

Not only drones would be there but Attack helicopters, fighterplanes, AWACS, attack aircrafts, low flying helicopters and drones/UAVs etc.



> Fourth THING which is most important. WHEN your SMerch Or PINAKA will fire their MBRLS, are you naive in your thinking that, you did not know Pakistan has Artillery finding Radars which can locate your artillery systems, and we will pay back in no time and our Respone will be as massive as yours will be Son....



*MBRLs also have similar shoot and scoot properties*.....whatever makes you think that NASR can run away according to that MBRLs can run away equally fast... .......There are radiation tracking devices which can be mounted on drones, helicopters and planes to track the movement of NASR.....if Nuclear warhead is used.



> A quote from Fatman-17 article on last page, which summarizes my whole Post



* No sane General sitting there in Islamabad would take the risk of the 1st Nuclear Impact*........be it it which ever territory......India or Pakistan.......*Indian doctrine provides for retaliation even if its men are attacked on foreign soil*

.............all thought it might look like ''what you have we have this'' competition but.......let me make it clear........ NASR might well be a *TD/PT for a longer ranged missile with at least 100 km range*.......*using conventional and cluster warheads on fast moving mechanized columns*........or as your friend posted



AhaseebA said:


> *...Nasr is more of a message...*


 
........Fell free to agree, argue or disagree with the view.


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## Last Hope

Creder said:


> 60 km ? What's this a patakha missile ? What are they playing at


Sir, this 60KM missile is being scaring the people on our East. The reasons:
*

Easy and undetected transportation.
Speed and accuracy in hitting the target.
Quick reaction.
Its tactical yield. 
Its vertical launch.
*_(3 more points, classifieds for citizens)_


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## IndianArmy

Last Hope said:


> Sir, this 60KM missile is being scaring the people on our East. The reasons:
> *
> 
> Easy and undetected transportation.
> Speed and accuracy in hitting the target.
> Quick reaction.
> Its tactical yield.
> Its vertical launch.
> *_(3 more point, classifieds for citizens)_


 
Could you reconsider the points with the amount of Border surveillance equipments being used? These weapons might scare only those countries whose Border surveillance is weak. I would personally laud the accomplishment of developing this missile called NASR, but your myth of scaring east is not true.


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## MilSpec

Last Hope said:


> Sir, this 60KM missile is being scaring the people on our East. The reasons:
> *
> 
> Easy and undetected transportation.
> Speed and accuracy in hitting the target.
> Quick reaction.
> Its tactical yield.
> Its vertical launch.
> *_(3 more point, classifieds for citizens)_


 
Sir , It's a great achievement that your country is becoming self sufficient in Hight tech military hardware. There is no need to perceive or promote the view that this missile has everyone east of your country scared and running for counter measures.

Although this might be a very useful tactical missile, you have had long range chinese and indigenous systems far more lethal than NASR since a long time. that did not disrupt our sleep, so please refrain from making claims that a short range tactical missile will scare us. 

Both countries have their own respectable missile/aeronautics/space programs. Both countries have different security needs and deterrences. 

Next about the reasons that you stated:

Easy and undetected transportation: - do you know the realtime resolution of satellite imaging? Also IBG's will travel with with appropriate air interdiction

Speed and accuracy in hitting the target :- when the same thing is said about bramhos, everyone in this forum claims SPADA systems can take care of them right? please dont forget about Akash/spyder systems. What makes you think any armored column will advance without protection

Its vertical launch: How is that even an attribute to be bragging about.... these days most all aspect missiles are vertical launch


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## Last Hope

IndianArmy said:


> Could you reconsider the points with the amount of Border surveillance equipments being used? These weapons might scare only those countries whose Border surveillance is weak. I would personally laud the accomplishment of developing this missile called NASR, but your myth of scaring east is not true.


I have got certain friends in the Military, who have been telling that the IA is tensed for the possible development of NASR. NASR as such isin't the real reason, but the forthcoming variants are.


sandy_3126 said:


> Easy and undetected transportation: - do you know the realtime resolution of satellite imaging? Also IBG's will travel with with appropriate air interdiction


When I said that, was supposed not as a cross border, but bringing it towards the border in the dead of night, with special tactics_ (I wouldn't mention, sorry)_.


> Its vertical launch: How is that even an attribute to be bragging about.... these days most all aspect missiles are vertical launch


Vertical launch for small missiles has been a problem for Pakistan. With this solved, the working for Naval cruise missile can get pace.


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## IndianArmy

Last Hope said:


> I have got certain friends in the Military, who have been telling that the IA is tensed for the possible development of NASR. NASR as such isin't the real reason, but the forthcoming variants are.


 
There is no reason to be tensed, Although I wouldn't deny the preparedness and Alertness has certainly been Intensified, although battlefield artillery is a cause of worry for any hostile army in the world as its preparedness is questioned or in other words challenged. So has Pakistan Army after the test of Prahaar which has double the time better range. Tensed and Alertness are two different thing's.

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## Last Hope

IndianArmy said:


> There is no reason to be tensed, Although I wouldn't deny the preparedness and Alertness has certainly been Intensified, although battlefield artillery is a cause of worry for any hostile army in the world as its preparedness is questioned or in other words challenged. So has Pakistan Army after the test of Prahaar which has double the time better range. Tensed and Alertness are two different thing's.


 
Actually I DID mean tensed. Tensed, in the sense not with NASR itself, but the variants. I thought being a PROFESSIONAL on the forum, you should be quite understanding, but you dont quite seem to get my point.


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## IndianArmy

Last Hope said:


> Actually I DID mean tensed. Tensed, in the sense not with NASR itself, but the variants. I thought being a PROFESSIONAL on the forum, you should be quite understanding, but you dont quite seem to get my point.


 
Being a Professional does not mean giving room for imaginations either. Look, I am clear with my point here. Short range missiles are tactical in every nature, but not to an extent to create a havoc in the battle field, its there to take out important installations which any professional army understands. My question to you is simple, having better border surveillance I see no chance of bringing in these missiles un-noticed. It can be deployed quite efficiently but cannot escape our Eyes in the Sky.

May I know which future versions of NASR should the hostile army be tensed about?

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## Last Hope

IndianArmy said:


> May I know which future versions of NASR should the hostile army be tensed about?


This is the classified part, and the part that is the real tension. I guess we will happen to see it within 3-4 years.


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## IndianArmy

Last Hope said:


> This is the classified part, and the part that is the real tension. I guess we will happen to see it within 3-4 years.


 
Then I am sure its better to keep it classified until that very day arrives. 3-4 years, well that's not a distant future, my Nutmeg tree would grow tall by then.


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## somebozo

Most laughable thing I have ever read:


> Indian doctrine provides for retaliation even if its men are attacked on foreign soil



Indian breifing afterwards at UN,
Our troops crossed the Pakistani border at 5.45am today and 80KM march inside the Pakistan terriotry, they were attached with tactical nuclear missles. We condone nuclear attack on our troops of peace and conducted retaliatory nuclear strikes on Pakistani cities..

And the whole podium echos up with clap clap clap..

it is as stupid as the Indian scientest cum president calling for reuseable missles.

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## The Deterrent

Last Hope said:


> Sir, this 60KM missile is being scaring the people on our East. The reasons:
> *
> 
> Easy and undetected transportation.
> Speed and accuracy in hitting the target.
> Quick reaction.
> Its tactical yield.
> Its vertical launch.
> *_(3 more points, classifieds for citizens)_


 
4 tubes,may be more...

And how is vertical launch of Nasr going to help us with Naval Cruise Missiles?...we've already test-fired Babur GLCM through a canister based launcher,which can easily be installed on Naval Surface Vessels...


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## DARKY

somebozo said:


> *Most laughable thing I have ever read*:
> 
> 
> Indian breifing afterwards at UN,
> Our troops crossed the Pakistani border at 5.45am today and 80KM march inside the Pakistan terriotry, they were attached with tactical nuclear missles. We condone nuclear attack on our troops of peace and conducted retaliatory nuclear strikes on Pakistani cities..
> 
> And the whole podium echos up with clap clap clap..
> 
> *it is as stupid as the Indian scientest cum president calling for reuseable missles.*


 
The best thing you can do us is laugh......it doesn't take much.......good for health also.
........and you best suited for the condition.....
But don't forget so is the whole world.............*laughing* !!!!

About your comment about our President......and the use of reusable hypersonic delivery systems..........I don't blame you.......some people still live in stone age and think that..... modern aspects and technologioes on which thousands of scientists are working on today.....spending billions in research is trash.......keep sticking with your illusive dream but don't blame others when you wake up in the morning.


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## Last Hope

AhaseebA said:


> 4 tubes,may be more...


A-100 is used for that. 



> And how is vertical launch of Nasr going to help us with Naval Cruise Missiles?


No offense bro, but try to search for it. A little knowledge would help answer it 


> we've already test-fired Babur GLCM through a canister based launcher,which can easily be installed on Naval Surface Vessels...


Pretty much. But Naval versions have some different requirements of their own.
Babur is being modified for Naval purposes as a Cruise Missile, but NASR is being modified too. Classified. Cannot tell how/why.


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## The Deterrent

Last Hope said:


> A-100 is used for that.
> 
> 
> No offense bro, but try to search for it. A little knowledge would help answer it
> 
> Pretty much. But Naval versions have some different requirements of their own.
> Babur is being modified for Naval purposes as a Cruise Missile, but NASR is being modified too. Classified. Cannot tell how/why.



I know thrust vectoring...it has been applied to the booster motor of Babur GLCM...

Also,as per the video,Nasr was launched at an angle...vertical launch would be good,if range is increased too...


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## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> Sir , It's a great achievement that your country is becoming self sufficient in Hight tech military hardware. There is no need to perceive or promote the view that this missile has everyone east of your country scared and running for counter measures.



If you think rationally, now the IA has to worry about a tactical nuke on the battlefield. This is a totally new scenario that has been introduced in the Indo-Pak context, something that was never thought about. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Although this might be a very useful tactical missile, you have had long range chinese and indigenous systems far more lethal than NASR since a long time. that did not disrupt our sleep, so please refrain from making claims that a short range tactical missile will scare us.



There is a world of difference between a tactical and a strategic nuke. Strategic nukes are big and slow, they take time to assemble and mobilize while a small tactical nuke can be in the battlefield in minutes. While a strategic nuke is under the command of a Major General or a Lt General, a tactical nuke is under the command of a Colonel or a Brigadier who is present at the battlefield making quick decisions. From a war fighting point of view, this is a completely new scenario. I am not saying that the entire nation of India needs to be afraid of this tactical nuke; but your advancing Armour Columns will be dead scared, because if they break through and achieve success very quickly, they are at the risk of getting fried up. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Both countries have their own respectable missile/aeronautics/space programs. Both countries have different security needs and deterrences.



No doubt about that



sandy_3126 said:


> Next about the reasons that you stated:
> 
> Easy and undetected transportation: - do you know the realtime resolution of satellite imaging? Also IBG's will travel with with appropriate air interdiction



The Americans with all their high tech satellite imagery were not able to locate and spot exactly where the Iraqis were hidden, are you telling me that you have better real time satellite imagery than the Americans. Also the Pakistani Army is not the Iraqi Army, they are quite well trained in camouflaging their positions and we have learned this well from the Chinese whom are masters of this art. The IBG's will not be travelling with the appropriate Air Cover as the IAF will be busy duelling the skies with PAF in the initial campaign, so the air cover that the IBG's are relying on will be severely limited. Anyways, i am not saying that there is no chance of the Indians taking out the NASR, off course they can but PA can increase their chances of success by fielding more NASR's in numbers. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Speed and accuracy in hitting the target :- when the same thing is said about bramhos, everyone in this forum claims SPADA systems can take care of them right? please dont forget about Akash/spyder systems. What makes you think any armored column will advance without protection



A valid point, but you do realize that there are several tactics of countering the SAM threat. Besides even if your SAMS do take out NASR in the air, its only the message that PA wants to deliver that you are crossing the nuclear threshold line and the next strike will not be tactical, its going to be a strategic strike. I dont know who said that Brahmos will always be defeated, off course the missile has high heat signature but it definitely has a high probability of taking out its intended target but it depends what circumstances are we talking about. During skirmishes the chances of Brahmos succeeding are not as high as they would be in a full out shooting war. 



sandy_3126 said:


> Its vertical launch: How is that even an attribute to be bragging about.... these days most all aspect missiles are vertical launch



After the launch look how the missile maneuvers, this makes it easier for the missile to avoid the intercepting missiles.

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## MilSpec

notorious_eagle said:


> If you think rationally, now the IA has to worry about a tactical nuke on the battlefield. This is a totally new scenario that has been introduced in the Indo-Pak context, something that was never thought about.



Tactical warhead can be mounted on any decent missile with good range. I dont think Indian Brass are amateurs that they are scurrying to and fro to save their IBG's from NARS




> There is a world of difference between a tactical and a strategic nuke. Strategic nukes are big and slow, they take time to assemble and mobilize while a small tactical nuke can be in the battlefield in minutes. While a strategic nuke is under the command of a Major General or a Lt General, a tactical nuke is under the command of a Colonel or a Brigadier who is present at the battlefield making quick decisions. From a war fighting point of view, this is a completely new scenario. I am not saying that the entire nation of India needs to be afraid of this tactical nuke; but your advancing Armour Columns will be dead scared, because if they break through and achieve success very quickly, they are at the risk of getting fried up.


Sir with due respect, operationally deployed Prithvi II takes 8 mins to fire. Anyways are you sure your brass will initiate a nuke war with India under the command of a colonel or a brigadier?



> The Americans with all their high tech satellite imagery were not able to locate and spot exactly where the Iraqis were hidden, are you telling me that you have better real time satellite imagery than the Americans. Also the Pakistani Army is not the Iraqi Army, they are quite well trained in camouflaging their positions and we have learned this well from the Chinese whom are masters of this art. The IBG's will not be travelling with the appropriate Air Cover as the IAF will be busy duelling the skies with PAF in the initial campaign, so the air cover that the IBG's are relying on will be severely limited. Anyways, i am not saying that there is no chance of the Indians taking out the NASR, off course they can but PA can increase their chances of success by fielding more NASR's in numbers.


You do realize that cold start and IBG business begins with Air interdiction. there will be dedicated air cover for IBG's. Agreed P.A are very experienced and adept in camouflaging, but element of surprise is with the IA, and I am sure IA wont announce thier arrival in advance that you will be able to setup your NASR to welcome them. 




> A valid point, but you do realize that there are several tactics of countering the SAM threat. Besides even if your SAMS do take out NASR in the air, its only the message that PA wants to deliver that you are crossing the nuclear threshold line and the next strike will not be tactical, its going to be a strategic strike. I dont know who said that Brahmos will always be defeated, off course the missile has high heat signature but it definitely has a high probability of taking out its intended target but it depends what circumstances are we talking about. During skirmishes the chances of Brahmos succeeding are not as high as they would be in a full out shooting war.





> After the launch look how the missile maneuvers, this makes it easier for the missile to avoid the intercepting missiles.


It's something which has been achieved long ago by many others. 


I dont mean to hurt anyone's sentiments here but the way NASR missile is being talked about makes me feel that people here have no faith in pakistani armour to stand up and take the fight to IA. 

I am pretty sure all this cold start stuff is hyped up propaganda to feed the press.. If any conflict does escalate to nuclear level, mutual destruction is assured...

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## farhan_9909

can anyone provide the info about the total weight,length and diameter of nasr.

As i want to compare it with prahar that why prahar range is 3 times to that of nasr


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## Dr. Strangelove

farhan_9909 said:


> can anyone provide the info about the total weight,length and diameter of nasr.
> 
> As i want to compare it with prahar that why prahar range is 3 times to that of nasr


 
there is no data about length and diameter


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## MilSpec

farhan_9909 said:


> As i want to compare it with prahar that why prahar range is 3 times to that of nasr


 
Design Intent...


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## farhan_9909

full data about the prahar is available.&#8626;but not about nasr.but from pics the nasr look smaller than prahar


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## notorious_eagle

sandy_3126 said:


> Tactical warhead can be mounted on any decent missile with good range. I dont think Indian Brass are amateurs that they are scurrying to and fro to save their IBG's from NARS



No it cannot, you have to design a totally new missile to fit the warhead for a tactical nuke. You are making it sound too easy, even designing an accurate rocket that is carried on the Smerch requires years of experience and testing. Its not that easy as you are making it sound



sandy_3126 said:


> Sir with due respect, operationally deployed Prithvi II takes 8 mins to fire. Anyways are you sure your brass will initiate a nuke war with India under the command of a colonel or a brigadier?



8 minutes? Are you freakin kidding me, if that was true your country would have been the most sanctioned country in the world. India, like Pakistan keeps the missiles in separate parts away from each other unlike Russia or the US whom keep their missiles ready round the clock. It will take you definitely more than 8 minutes to assemble the nukes, you can mark my words for that. The components of the warheads are kept away from each other, this is why the Americans and the the rest of the world are relatively comfortable with us having nukes.

If the country is at the risk of getting cut up in two pieces, you can be sure that PA will fire the tactical nuke to send of the warning that BACK OFF or we are going to take it to the next level. It will be upto India if it wants to take it to the next level, but you can be sure that the entire Subcontinent will get fried up in the exchange. 



sandy_3126 said:


> You do realize that cold start and IBG business begins with Air interdiction. there will be dedicated air cover for IBG's. Agreed P.A are very experienced and adept in camouflaging, but element of surprise is with the IA, and I am sure IA wont announce thier arrival in advance that you will be able to setup your NASR to welcome them.



Its not that easy to move up an entire division, as soon as you start mobilizing your Armour the activity will not go unnoticed. Indian Major Armour Formations are heavily monitored by PA and same goes with IA monitoring PA's Armour Formations, with all the advances in technologies IA beating PA to the border is simply not possible. IA will not just get up one day and say "Hey we are going to mobilize and declare war", for IA to effectively mobilize some external event needs to take place. You can be sure that if that external event is serious, PA will start heavily monitoring the border. 



sandy_3126 said:


> I dont mean to hurt anyone's sentiments here but the way NASR missile is being talked about makes me feel that people here have no faith in pakistani armour to stand up and take the fight to IA.



Not at all, a good plan always has a contingency plan. If Plan A fails, there needs to be a Plan B. NASR is more of an insurance policy against an Indian invasion, thats about it. Looking at the balance of power, its roughly the same but there is always a good chance that the Indians can be the luckier/clever ones and manage to break through, something similar to the Wehrmacht breaking the French lines. 



sandy_3126 said:


> I am pretty sure all this cold start stuff is hyped up propaganda to feed the press.. If any conflict does escalate to nuclear level, mutual destruction is assured...



No doubt, and i pray to God this day never comes. But looking at the posture of the Indian Army, its acquisitions and the manoeuvres it has been performing, its quite evident that they want to achieve this capability.

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## lionheart1

@notorious_eagle sir pakistan is capable of manufacturing 20okg nuclear bomb , because your missile is capable of caring only 200kg pay load ... or PA is taking about dirty bomb .... even if you managed to miniaturise what will be its yield ,


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## ziaulislam

lionheart1 said:


> @notorious_eagle sir pakistan is capable of manufacturing 20okg nuclear bomb , because your missile is capable of caring only 200kg pay load ... or PA is taking about dirty bomb .... even if you managed to miniaturise what will be its yield ,


 it is known since 1998 that Pakistan can manufacture plutonium based nuclear devices..
official report on nasr quoted that it can be used both for conventional and nuclear deterrent..meaning that reason for 200kg is that it can be used for conventionally too.
pakistan can manufacture plutonium devices with weight in range of about 100 kg

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## ziaulislam

farhan_9909 said:


> can anyone provide the info about the total weight,length and diameter of nasr.
> 
> As i want to compare it with prahar that why prahar range is 3 times to that of nasr



all of this info is kept secret..we even are not sure about the exact range..

by the way we already have abdali and ghaznvi with range of 150 and 290 km..so that area is already covered


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## MilSpec

notorious_eagle said:


> No it cannot, you have to design a totally new missile to fit the warhead for a tactical nuke. You are making it sound too easy, even designing an accurate rocket that is carried on the Smerch requires years of experience and testing. Its not that easy as you are making it sound



I am not talking about developing delevery systems. Rocket motors do need experience no doubt about that, but warhead systems interoperability is true, IGMDP delivery methods employ common systems, Warheads conventional or nuclear have standard interoperability in SFC ballistic systems for SRBM. I am sorry but I cannot comment more on that on a public forum, I hope you understand the reason



> 8 minutes? Are you freakin kidding me, if that was true your country would have been the most sanctioned country in the world. India, like Pakistan keeps the missiles in separate parts away from each other unlike Russia or the US whom keep their missiles ready round the clock. It will take you definitely more than 8 minutes to assemble the nukes, you can mark my words for that. The components of the warheads are kept away from each other, this is why the Americans and the the rest of the world are relatively comfortable with us having nukes.



operationally deployed Prithvi II can be fired in the exact time I specified, from central command in SFC it takes 8 mins for the missile to fire, including target coordinate verification and active deployment of warhead, conventional or otherwise and initiation of launch sequence. You will not find a single shred of evidence about this on the web. Question is are there oprationally deployed SRBM, official answer is NO. rest you can figure out.




> If the country is at the risk of getting cut up in two pieces, you can be sure that PA will fire the tactical nuke to send of the warning that BACK OFF or we are going to take it to the next level. It will be upto India if it wants to take it to the next level, but you can be sure that the entire Subcontinent will get fried up in the exchange.






> Its not that easy to move up an entire division, as soon as you start mobilizing your Armour the activity will not go unnoticed. Indian Major Armour Formations are heavily monitored by PA and same goes with IA monitoring PA's Armour Formations, with all the advances in technologies IA beating PA to the border is simply not possible. IA will not just get up one day and say "Hey we are going to mobilize and declare war", for IA to effectively mobilize some external event needs to take place. You can be sure that if that external event is serious, PA will start heavily monitoring the border.



I am pretty sure that IBG's wont be big chunky 200 vehicle armored thrusts into pak as assumed in this forum by experts. It would be in my opinion a fast moving smaller groups breaking LOC in 25-30 locations preceded by Air interdiction and followed by a bigger strike core.
Next, what will be the Indian SFC reaction say if say one or say 5-8 tactical nukes are fired on IA. you think there wont be any response?





> Not at all, a good plan always has a contingency plan. If Plan A fails, there needs to be a Plan B. NASR is more of an insurance policy against an Indian invasion, thats about it. Looking at the balance of power, its roughly the same but there is always a good chance that the Indians can be the luckier/clever ones and manage to break through, something similar to the Wehrmacht breaking the French lines.



ok



> But looking at the posture of the Indian Army, its acquisitions and the manoeuvres it has been performing, its quite evident that they want to achieve this capability.



It's their job, to convince everyone they can win , but in a war no one wins.. 



> No doubt, and i pray to God this day never comes.



Its good to evaluate scenarios of battle in your mind and keep a strict vigil. I am actually very happy to see a stronger balanced Pak military. It ensures that there is no scenario where there is an actual war. I hope the same that we survive without fighting another war. 


IMHO, this cold start business is sheer propaganda, India is no Germany and Pakistan is no Poland that one day we decide and jump in to pakistan . All these generals are very well aware of there abilities and want to fight limited actions under the shelter of Nuke umbrella. 
In India Pakistan army is portrayed by lunatics as a entity whose main reason of survival is to hurt India, I have heard pakistani loons talking about hindus taking over Pakistan and all that usual BS. All this posturing is usually media driven because we are patriotic people and they play us on this war machinery card to sell their crap to us. 

I dont think in last 20-30 years there has been any system developed or acquired by any one of these two countries thats a gamechanger

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## The Deterrent

^^^ Awesome and healthy discussion by Sandy and notorious eagle...keep it up guys!


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## trident2010

Last Hope said:


> Sir, this 60KM missile is being scaring the people on our East. The reasons:
> *
> 
> Its vertical launch.
> *


 

Any video of vertical launch?


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## Dr. Strangelove

trident2010 said:


> Any video of vertical launch?


 
i cant find any vedio yet can any one post the video of vertical launch?


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## The Deterrent

wasm95 said:


> i cant find any vedio yet can any one post the video of vertical launch?


 
He is saying that the future design of Nasr launch mechanism will feature vertical launch...there has been no test of it yet.


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