# Real story of Kargil war



## opportunist86

While reading about the recent incident in Siachen, I got to read about Pak-India Kargil war. It seems wikipedia's article on Kargil has been written by indians. Is it all true as mentioned on wikipedia. If its not, then it needs to be corrected. It just mentions defeat of Pakistan army and everything good about indians. 
By the way, what is the real story. Was Pakistan really defeated that badly??

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## baqai

- We initiated it
- Only Army knew about the operation which was a mistake.
- Due to political reasons (Indians political victory) the operation was called off resulting in lots of loss of life at our end
- Strategically we had upper hand and would had given India a very hard time if supplies and full support was given
- If it had prolonged we would had gone to a full scale war
- Apart from political side, India also won on the media side. 

Above mentioned is what i believe in.

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## The HBS Guy

opportunist86 said:


> While reading about the recent incident in Siachen, I got to read about Pak-India Kargil war. It seems wikipedia's article on Kargil has been written by indians. Is it all true as mentioned on wikipedia. If its not, then it needs to be corrected. It just mentions defeat of Pakistan army and everything good about indians.
> By the way, what is the real story. Was Pakistan really defeated that badly??



Go on. 'Correct' it.

Then some Indian will 'correct' it. 

...and the game will go on.

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## T90TankGuy

opportunist86 said:


> While reading about the recent incident in Siachen, I got to read about Pak-India Kargil war. It seems wikipedia's article on Kargil has been written by indians. Is it all true as mentioned on wikipedia. If its not, then it needs to be corrected. It just mentions defeat of Pakistan army and everything good about indians.
> By the way, what is the real story. Was Pakistan really defeated that badly??



there are other neutral sources available on line mate . why not look them up !!!
it might give you a version you have not heard before.


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## Ammyy

jbgt90 said:


> there are other neutral sources available on line mate . why not look them up !!!
> it might give you a version you have not heard before.



Dnt you know its just west, Zionist propaganda against Pakistan ????

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## Avatar

opportunist86 said:


> While reading about the recent incident in Siachen, I got to read about Pak-India Kargil war. It seems wikipedia's article on Kargil has been written by indians. Is it all true as mentioned on wikipedia. If its not, then it needs to be corrected. It just mentions defeat of Pakistan army and everything good about indians.
> By the way, what is the real story. Was Pakistan really defeated that badly??



I am glad you asked. 

Wikipedia is not a reliable source but it can be at times more accurate than your local newspaper. Check out other international sources which you trust.. Check out the real story about other wars too.


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## itsme

pakistanis were placed on the top of the mountain. according to some rule both sides withdrew during winters and returned during summers, but pak reached before us and captured the post. we gave a lot of lifes to reach to top. but once we reached there then it nothing but a fest for our soldiers. this war brought pakistanis nothing but *hate and distrust* from the world including all weather china. it showed that pak is more under influence of army and not the govt of pak. pakistan failed on political and military fronts. this is the truth. it hurts to be a sore looser.

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## darkinsky

i agree,ifit was not the ganja meddling in the affairs because ofamerican pressure, we would have got what pakistan had not imagined, a truce over kashmir and all pakistan had needed, but ganja lost us the war, he bowed down to american pressure

its one of the reasons why america is hated in pakistan so much, because when the real time came, america sided with india rather than pakistan

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## opportunist86

baqai said:


> - We initiated it
> - Only Army knew about the operation which was a mistake.
> - Due to political reasons (Indians political victory) the operation was called off resulting in lots of loss of life at our end
> - Strategically we had upper hand and would had given India a very hard time if supplies and full support was given
> - If it had prolonged we would had gone to a full scale war
> - Apart from political side, India also won on the media side.
> 
> Above mentioned is what i believe in.


But Sharif said that we were left with only 6 days of oil in the country. India had ceased our supplies by sea. This is written on wikipedia. Am I correct in perceiving that Pakistan lost that war? Pakistan lost a lots of live? Why? When Pakistan captured such a great position initially.
PS: This is not me. This is because of my hate for India...


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## itsme

opportunist86 said:


> But Sharif said that we were left with only 6 days of oil in the country. India had ceased our supplies by sea. This is written on wikipedia. Am I correct in perceiving that Pakistan lost that war? Pakistan lost a lots of live? Why? When Pakistan captured such a great position initially.
> PS: This is not me. This is because of my hate for India...



nah bro u won the war, u won 1965 and 1971 too. its all yours 



darkinsky said:


> i agree,ifit was not the ganja meddling in the affairs because ofamerican pressure, we would have got what pakistan had not imagined, a truce over kashmir and all pakistan had needed, but ganja lost us the war, he bowed down to american pressure
> 
> its one of the reasons why america is hated in pakistan so much, because when the real time came, america sided with india rather than pakistan



in guess india wasnt the one who violated the ceasefire, it was pakistan. but whatever we gave u guys an amazing lesson and america is still giving u lessons everyday.


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## Saleem

no only army did not know about---only musharaff & a few of his cronies knew about it -----i.e. no real planning was done---no planning for forces needed in light of Indian force levels and capabilities; no planning about logistics: resupply, maintaining supplies; --no operational planning---if the indians decided to take AK or widen the war to all of pk as they would have done if their attempt to retake kargil had failed or pk had really threatened indian position in occupied kashmir----PAF was not on board----Fo was not on board-----in short a total and utter fiasco - front line troops were sent to die much like Enver Pasha,s eastern offensive in 1914 when he sent 90,000 ottoman soldiers to die and then ran away after the attack failed---all senior officers involved in planning (GOC FCNA, Corps Comd, COAS etc need to be courtmartialled and punished)......


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## darkinsky

itsme said:


> this feroz khan, *look at his professionalism*, to me he looks more like a taliban terrorist than an armyman.
> Moin Akhtar with kargil hero feroz khan.flv - YouTube



are you seriously not trolling, or just being plain stupid??


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## Edevelop

Mods please change the title of this thread. 
Please change 'Kargil War' to ' Kargil conflict'
Thanks...


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## itsme

guys lets finish it by saying that india won but pakistan scored well and killed enough indians to be proud of.


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## S_O_C_O_M

The HBS Guy said:


> Go on. 'Correct' it.
> 
> Then some Indian will 'correct' it.
> 
> ...and the game will go on.



they are bunch of losers. i was in an "edit war" with these low life scums of the earth, who have nothing better to do than sit in front of the computer far away from mirrors and people.

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## Edevelop

I swear this wasn't even a war. No PA No PAF.

These guys think that Mirage 2000 dropping bomb on mujaheedens was victory? my a$$. Those poor guys didn't even have anything greater than an AK-47.

If our F-16s took off from Air Bases, these Indians would pee in their pants. Maybe i should remind how those SU-30s u-turned in 2008...

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## RazPaK

itsme said:


> loll pakistanis sitting on top of mountain shot indians right on their heads, 100s were simply killed in the hunt to reach the top. anyways even if u had all the support conclusion would have been the same.
> 
> there is no point of demanding punishment for ur armymen, they gave life for ur country. u should honour and consider them ur heroes, like this.
> 
> this feroz khan, look at his professionalism, to me he looks more like a taliban terrorist than an armyman.
> Moin Akhtar with kargil hero feroz khan.flv - YouTube



Feroz Khan would be ready to go at you ******** again. Watch your mouth and stop with insults. Discuss the topic without trying to take cheap shots, because we can say many more hurtful things.

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## third eye

Kargil was yet another example of lack of vision and acumen of Pak Generals in conducting war.

Traditionally they have been bold in planning but have consistently displayed poor ability to ' think / war game a situation through to its end state. Few selected Examples :

1. Sending the PA as razakars into J&K without thought to the Indian political & military riposte.
2. Ayub's sending Paratroops into J&K in 65 before the war in the hope that the locals will ' rise' against India . Exactly the opposite happened.
3. Again in 65 Ayub's plan to sever J&K failed when he did not consider the Indian counter thrust on lahore. This led to his thrust against akhnoor fading out.
4 In 71, the attack on laungewala was a brilliant move poor planned & executed with no air cover & supplies the tanks were doomed from the start.
5. Again in 71 , letting things get out of hand in E Pak to a point that the break off from W Pak became a foregone conclusion.
6. In the 80's they tried to apply the Af template on Punjab , the results need no elaboration.

Pak Generals have often assumed that wars can be ' localized' . The attacker loses the initiative once the IB / LOC is crossed. Thereafter the defender is at liberty to counter attack at a time & place of his choosing.

This is what happened at kargil.

Mush who now tries to be an epitome of sincerity thought he could do a Siachen on India at Kargil. In line with his predecessors he did not take into account of two things - the Media & India's ability to respond . Add to this India ever inclination to expand war into the plains , deserts , Sea & skies. His conversation with his Generals while he was in China was picked up and was on national TV. He did not chose to keep his PM in the loop either.

It was against this real , live & confirmed threat that Nawaz had to rush to US ( not at the US calling) on their national holiday 4th July - a day when no govt transaction happens with an SOS request.

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## Bhairava

Yet another "real story" in a long line of real stories...



@ third eye,

It was not only because of poor planning..but because those "adventures" were planned by the Army with little or no consultation, co-operation with AF or Navy.

In many cases the AF or Navy simply refused to obey the orders relayed by the Army due to their own limitations or assessments.


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## RazPaK

Dear Pakistanis, 

The truth of the matter is that Kargil was an operation that was half-assed. The operation humiliated Indian forces to the point that Indians still feel insecure to this day. Pakistan's biggest mistake was that it did not invest into the operation by 100 percent.

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## itsme

cb4 said:


> I swear this wasn't even a war. No PA No PAF.
> 
> These guys think that Mirage 2000 dropping bomb on mujaheedens was victory? my a$$. Those poor guys didn't even have anything greater than an AK-47.
> 
> If our F-16s took off from Air Bases, these Indians would pee in their pants. Maybe i should remind how those SU-30s u-turned in 2008...



well dude we r ready to accept we lost happily. u take it. we dont need a victory on pak its below our level of victory. beating kiddies is not something india should be proud of.


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## RazPaK

This conflict was not a victory by either side. Especially since Pakistan had not prepared properly. However, one thing that can be said was that the Indians were caught with their pants down, and humiliated thoroughly.

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## itsme

RazPaK said:


> This conflict was not a victory by either side. Especially since Pakistan had not prepared properly. However, one thing that can be said was that the Indians were caught with their pants down, and humiliated thoroughly.



right thats really makes sence 

who today holds the peak that ur army captured?
ur army was armed with surface to air guns, grenedes bombs, lmgs good enough to kill 500 indians. if u think we were humiliated then i guess look how the world looked at it. it was considered distrust by the entire world by a nuclear power. bhutto called it the biggest disaster of pak history. and u say we r humiliated goshhh


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## Bhairava

RazPaK said:


> This conflict was not a victory by either side. Especially since Pakistan had not prepared properly. However, one thing that can be said was that the Indians were caught with their pants down, and humiliated thoroughly.



On failing the exam, if you give an excuse like I failed the exam only because I did not prepare properly, you still fail the exam.

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

RazPaK said:


> This conflict was not a victory by either side. Especially since Pakistan had not prepared properly. However, one thing that can be said was that the Indians were caught with their pants down, and humiliated thoroughly.



Ohh so it is our fault that you decided to inavade our country and you were not prepared.

We were caught with our pants down??or were you trying to take advantage of unoccupied posts which Indian soldiers used to leave for the past so many years whenever winters came and now you say that India should de-militarise Siachen!

Regarding getting humiliated...the whole world knows who got humiliated and who wasnt willing to accept the body of their jawans.

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## Bhairava

*Anyway I understand the situation Pakistanis are going through right now,especially in Siachen and how badly they need some morale boosters..so I will desist from commenting further.*

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## third eye

Bhairava said:


> Yet another "real story" in a long line of real stories...
> 
> 
> 
> @ third eye,
> 
> *It was not only because of poor planning..but because those "adventures" were planned by the Army with little or no consultation, co-operation with AF or Navy.
> *
> In many cases the AF or Navy simply refused to obey the orders relayed by the Army due to their own limitations or assessments.



The part emboldened above is a part of Tri Services planning which comes naturally to any soldier.


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## itsme

i am deeply surprised to see pakistanis jutifying their defeat by saying we were not prepared. to attack kyoo kiya tha bhai.


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## acetophenol

In my opinion, Kargil war was one of the most foolish acts of pakistan,and it benefitted india in many ways.

The mistakes in indian side:
1. Intelligence failure. Such an attack in large scale wasn't foreseen.
2. Underestimation of the level of intrusion by the army. For eg: intially army failed to detect the presence of weapon locating radars which resulted in a lot of casualities.

However i am thankfull for the kargil war as all the three forces ie,navy ,airforce and army conducted coordinated movements. Navy did an excellent job. Also,airforce's surgical strikes helped us win the game.


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## jabalultariq

Why didn't any heads roll in Pakistan Army after yet another debacle after fall of Dacca , will we ever learn !! why is Army a 
gao mata for us (excuse the reference my Indian friends)

Once thing is for sure - Indian army was caught with their pants down , million dollar question is : What was Pak Army's exit strategy ? was there any ? did they jump in without any planning ?

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## RazPaK

We can all agree that Kargil was the effort of one man that would have gone to the depths of hell for recognition. That man was Musharraf.

Dear Indians, 

I understand that it may hurt your ego, but please look at the number of our forces and your forces. 

Please do not lie about it.


It was a humiliation of your army.


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## darkinsky

jabalultariq said:


> Why didn't any heads roll in Pakistan Army after yet another debacle after fall of Dacca , will we ever learn !! why is Army a
> gao mata for us (excuse the reference my Indian friends)
> 
> Once thing is for sure - Indian army was caught with their pants down , million dollar question is : What was Pak Army's exit strategy ? was there any ? did they jump in without any planning ?



the strategy was to inflict as much damage so that indians forget the hill and bog down, but it didnt happen did it?? ganja came inbetween with american orders to vacate the place


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## Bhairava

third eye said:


> The part emboldened above is a part of Tri Services planning which comes naturally to any soldier.


 
Actually on reading the accounts of ACM Nur Khan and Asghar Khan on the 65 war, you would get the opposite sense.

It was out and out an operation planned by the Army and even the AF was only informed at the last possible moment when the Indian counter attack was imminent.


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## illusion8

acetophenol said:


> In my opinion, Kargil war was one of the most foolish acts of pakistan,and it benefitted india in many ways.
> 
> The mistakes in indian side:
> 1. Intelligence failure. Such an attack in large scale wasn't foreseen.
> 2. Underestimation of the level of intrusion by the army. For eg: intially army failed to detect the presence of weapon locating radars which resulted in a lot of casualities.
> 
> However i am thankfull for the kargil war as all the three forces ie,navy ,airforce and army conducted coordinated movements.* Navy did an excellent job.* Also,airforce's surgical strikes helped us win the game.


 

How did the IN get involved, did they block off naval sea routes of PK?


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## jabalultariq

I think we need to deflate our egos big time

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

RazPaK said:


> We can all agree that Kargil was the effort of one man that would have gone to the depths of hell for recognition. That man was Musharraf.
> 
> Dear Indians,
> 
> I understand that it may hurt your ego, but please look at the number of our forces and your forces.
> 
> Please do not lie about it.
> 
> 
> It was a humiliation of your army.



Kindly ask any officer of the Pakistani Army who knows mountain warfare that what is the ratio of troops needed when you are trying to attack enemy at higher positions..and do share the reply here.

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## S_O_C_O_M

Point 5353 Still in Pakistan's Control

Tiger Hill Point 5353 (Highest Peak in Kargil Region) Still in Control of Pakistan - YouTube

An honest indian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_l73BVmlrs&feature=related

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## jabalultariq

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Kindly ask any officer of the Pakistani Army who knows mountain warfare that what is the ratio of troops needed when you are trying to attack enemy at higher positions..and do share the reply here.



RazPak's point is not about who has strategic advantage in mountain warfare , its about IA sheer numbers and yet they were "check mated" big time !!!!!


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## OrionHunter

opportunist86 said:


> This is because of my hate for India...


Wow!  That sucks!


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## Gautam

First pakistan infiltrate and attack. 

when Indian army start killing pakistani soldiers- pakistan say we are not involved in Kargil- they are terrorists!  (who does that? lol)

Indians keep on killing the pakistani soldiers who infiltrated in Kashmir. 

then this nawaz guy (who had no idea where Pakistan army actually is!) goes to amrika for help. amrika shouts at him and orders him to request pakistan army to get out of Indian territory. but nobody in pakistan army listens to this nawaz! (lol what a hierarchy system!)

then somehow this nawaz convinces mush to get out of Indian territory before entire pakistan army is killed by evil Hindus. 

then Indians want to hand over the dead bodies of pakistan soldiers, which pakistan obviously denies. (because they initially declared no involvement of pakistan army! i can't even lol on this. its very inhuman towards pakistani soldiers by pakistan state.)

then Indian army bury the pakistan soldiers with respect. 

now next is the most funny part...

after about 10 years - pakistan awards medals to pakistani soldiers who took part in Kargil war! LOLOLOOLOLOL
what the 

and now pakistani posters say that they were not ready- that's why they lost! 

only god can explain why did pakistan attack if they were not prepared in the first place!

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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

jabalultariq said:


> RazPak's point is not about who has strategic advantage in mountain warfare , its about IA sheer numbers and yet they were "check mated" big time !!!!!



I really wanted to make things appear clear to you but i really dont have the patience and the tolerance to indulge in a long useless debate.Kindly excuse me and believe whatever suits your ego..the facts are in front of the world and you and me cant change it.

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## The HBS Guy

Gautam said:


> First pakistan infiltrate and attack.
> 
> when Indian army start killing pakistani soldiers- pakistan say we are not involved in Kargil- they are terrorists!  (who does that? lol)



It's actually ok. The Pakistanis have expertise in ditching those who work for them in their hour of need. 

Ask a certain Ghulam Nabi Fai.

In fact, this is the reason of the failure of all their objectives one after the other. When you can't win over the people and stand by them when they need you the most, the people will one by one start dumping you and move on to greener pastures.

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## Gautam

The HBS Guy said:


> It's actually ok. The Pakistanis have expertise in ditching those who work for them in their hour of need.
> 
> Ask a certain Ghulam Nabi Fai.


and that's one of the reasons they never won any war. how can the backstabbers ever win? 

fai is still understandable. but the soldiers who are fighting for pakistan never got the respectful burial they deserved. heck their bodies were not even taken back by pakistan. what a shameful act.


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## The HBS Guy

Gautam said:


> and that's one of the reasons they never won any war. how can the backstabbers ever win?
> 
> fai is still understandable. but the soldiers who are fighting for pakistan never got the respectful burial they deserved. heck their bodies were not even taken back by pakistan. what a shameful act.



No actually the Pakistanis took the bodies back but after much requests by India. There is a video of that on YouTube.

You can imagine the mental state of a people and an Army whom the enemy has to resquest to take back the corpses of its dead soldiers.

Point is, people who cannot stand by their friends when those friends need them the most, ultimately lose every single cause of theirs, just like the Pakistanis.

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## Gautam

jabalultariq said:


> RazPak's point is not about who has strategic advantage in mountain warfare , its about IA sheer numbers and yet they were "check mated" big time !!!!!


 
yeah you check mated us big time by not accepting the bodies of your dead soldiers. we lose in that part because we are not capable of doing it.


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## IndianArmy

India and Pakistan had a tradition of vacating their forward bases during winter times, it is then the Pakistani forces disguised as Terrorists occupied the peak watching our supply routs. A Partial Intel. failure , we could have avoided a clash. Indian Army had to kill the terrorists hiding behind the bunkers and that too on high peaks which for obvious reason gives the enemy an edge. Mean while their SSG's were caught red handed by our Infantry men who had infiltrated deep inside Indian territory posing as sheep herders and daily wage workers. It was only then the world came to know that Indian Army was dealing not with terrorists but with Pakistani security forces and resulted in an all out war.

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## darkinsky

Gautam said:


> First pakistan infiltrate and attack.
> 
> when Indian army start killing pakistani soldiers- pakistan say we are not involved in Kargil- they are terrorists!  (who does that? lol)
> 
> Indians keep on killing the pakistani soldiers who infiltrated in Kashmir.
> 
> then this nawaz guy (who had no idea where Pakistan army actually is!) goes to amrika for help. amrika shouts at him and orders him to request pakistan army to get out of Indian territory. but nobody in pakistan army listens to this nawaz! (lol what a hierarchy system!)
> 
> then somehow this nawaz convinces mush to get out of Indian territory before entire pakistan army is killed by evil Hindus.
> 
> then Indians want to hand over the dead bodies of pakistan soldiers, which pakistan obviously denies. (because they initially declared no involvement of pakistan army! i can't even lol on this. its very inhuman towards pakistani soldiers by pakistan state.)
> 
> then Indian army bury the pakistan soldiers with respect.
> 
> now next is the most funny part...
> 
> after about 10 years - pakistan awards medals to pakistani soldiers who took part in Kargil war! LOLOLOOLOLOL
> what the
> 
> and now pakistani posters say that they were not ready- that's why they lost!
> 
> only god can explain why did pakistan attack if they were not prepared in the first place!



good lord, you must write as a historian, surely your books mixed with laughter and jokes will make you the best seller, title your books as 'masala history' by professor gautam

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## Gautam

The HBS Guy said:


> No actually the Pakistanis took the bodies back but after much requests by India. There is a video of that on YouTube.
> 
> You can imagine the mental state of a people and an Army whom the enemy has to resquest to take back the corpses of its dead soldiers.
> 
> Point is, people who cannot stand by their friends when those friends need them the most, ultimately lose every single cause of theirs, just like the Pakistanis.


exactly. 
then these people blame amrika for not taking their side during Kargil. lol
but they don't realise that they are not taking side of their own people. i just don't understand what's wrong with them. hope they grow up someday.
p.s. thanks for correcting me about that dead body part.

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## joekrish

RazPaK said:


> This conflict was not a victory by either side. Especially since Pakistan had not prepared properly. However, one thing that can be said was that the Indians were caught with their pants down, and humiliated thoroughly.




Oh Dam Indians! The Pakistanis had asked for a time out but we dint give them one, how evil of us

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## Gautam

darkinsky said:


> good lord, you must write as a historian, surely your books mixed with laughter and jokes will make you the best seller, title your books as 'masala history' by professor gautam


 
thanks man.
but isn't that true?
first you denied your involvement in Kargil. then you deny the dead bodies of your soldiers. then after some 10 years - you issue medals to your army for the same war! 


sounds like a circus to me!

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## faizahmad

opportunist86 said:


> While reading about the recent incident in Siachen, I got to read about Pak-India Kargil war. It seems wikipedia's article on Kargil has been written by indians. Is it all true as mentioned on wikipedia. If its not, then it needs to be corrected. It just mentions defeat of Pakistan army and everything good about indians.
> By the way, what is the real story. Was Pakistan really defeated that badly??



Wiki sources are true to the fact ,

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## darkinsky

The HBS Guy said:


> No actually the Pakistanis took the bodies back but after much requests by India. There is a video of that on YouTube.
> 
> You can imagine the mental state of a people and an Army whom the enemy has to resquest to take back the corpses of its dead soldiers.
> 
> Point is, people who cannot stand by their friends when those friends need them the most, ultimately lose every single cause of theirs, just like the Pakistanis.



well none beats the video about a kashmiri trying to beat an indian soldier and like a coward the indian soldier is running for his life,did you watch such a video??


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## The HBS Guy

darkinsky said:


> well none beats the video about a kashmiri trying to beat an indian soldier and like a coward the indian soldier is running for his life,did you watch such a video??



It can only happen in India that a civilian can beat a soldier without the fear of being shot in the forehead.

It cannot happen in Pakistan and for that, you have my sympathies.

An Army which hangs its PM by pressuring the courts.

An Army which kidnaps and kills Journalists. 

An Army which wages warf without informing its own PM. 

Yes, I agree, you cannot really hope to show them the unarmed man's middle finger.

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## Gautam

faizahmad said:


> Wiki sources are true to the fact ,


 
i like your avtaar. 
Jai Hind!



darkinsky said:


> well none beats the video about a kashmiri trying to beat an indian soldier and like a coward the indian soldier is running for his life,did you watch such a video??


you ran out of arguments that now you go off topic?


that's it guys. i have to leave. see ya later.


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## Nothing

To Indian posters .. don't debate more .. this is never ending. Keep in mind Kargil war shows how both country can function in totality.. In Pakistan even PAF was out of scene , which shows professionalism of their army and trust between army and GOP.Even at time of conflict they were not telling truth that those are their own soldiers ... they never accepted dead bodies and Indian Army gave them last respect... all shows where they are as country stood at that time..

For India .. we was able to contain war to only one front , so rest of country of very less affected, that was start of our golden run as nation.. any war had spoiled that .. we won diplomatically all countries in world stood with us .. even China and USA ..
That war gave us chance to start modernization of our army forces.
biggest of all it gave Pakistan Musharraf for next 10 years which was the seed for today's chaos Pakistan ..

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## Varunastra

Respect4Respect01 said:


> yes we won the 1965 war, and as far as 71 goes, that was like fighting a war inside a another country, so ur right.



1N 1965-

Pakistans *primary objective*-conquer kashmir

India's *primary objective*- flush the intruders out of kashmir

India's *secondary objective*-to attack and capture lahore and force pakistan to come out of kashmir and take their resources to lahore to accomplish the primary objective of India

Pakistn's *secondary objective*(in response to india's secondary objective)-save lahore!


RESULTS-

India's primary objective-*ACCOMPLISHED*!

Pakistn's primary objective-*FAILED*!

Indi'a secondary objective-*FAILED*! 

Pakistn's secondary objective-*ACCOMPLISHED*!!

so as you guys can see......I*ndia accomplished it's primary objective while Pakistan could not*! that's all that matters and that's why technically India won the war!!

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## faizahmad

RazPaK said:


> Dear Pakistanis,
> 
> The truth of the matter is that Kargil was an operation that was half-assed. The operation humiliated Indian forces to the point that Indians still feel insecure to this day. Pakistan's biggest mistake was that it did not invest into the operation by 100 percent.



World Opinion 

Pakistan was criticised by other countries for instigating the war, as its paramilitary forces and insurgents crossed the Line of Control.[63] Pakistan's primary diplomatic response, one of plausible deniability linking the incursion to what it officially termed as "Kashmiri freedom fighters", was in the end not successful.[64] Veteran analysts argued that the battle was fought at heights where only seasoned troops could survive, so poorly equipped "freedom fighters" would neither have the ability nor the wherewithal to seize land and defend it. Moreover, while the army had initially denied the involvement of its troops in the intrusion, two soldiers were awarded the Nishan-E-Haider (Pakistan's highest military honour). Another 90 soldiers were also given gallantry awards, most of them posthumously, confirming Pakistan's role in the episode. India also released taped phone conversations between the Army Chief and a senior Pakistani general where the latter is recorded saying: "the scruff of [the militants] necks is in our hands,"[65] although Pakistan dismissed it as a "total fabrication". Concurrently, Pakistan made several contradicting statements, confirming its role in Kargil, when it defended the incursions saying that the LOC itself was disputed.[66] Pakistan also attempted to internationalize the Kashmir issue, by linking the crisis in Kargil to the larger Kashmir conflict but, such a diplomatic stance found few backers on the world stage.[67]

As the Indian counter-attacks picked up momentum, Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif flew to meet U.S. President Bill Clinton on July 4 to obtain support from the United States. Clinton rebuked Sharif, however, and asked him to use his contacts to rein in the militants and withdraw Pakistani soldiers from Indian territory. Clinton would later reveal in his autobiography that "Sharif's moves were perplexing" since the Indian Prime Minister had travelled to Lahore to promote bilateral talks aimed at resolving the Kashmir problem and "by crossing the Line of Control, Pakistan had wrecked the [bilateral] talks."[68] On the other hand, he applauded Indian restraint for not crossing the LoC and escalating the conflict into an all-out war.[69]

G8 nations supported India and condemned the Pakistani violation of the LOC at the Cologne summit. The European Union also opposed Pakistan's violation of the LOC.[70] China, a long-time ally of Pakistan, insisted on a pullout of forces to the pre-conflict positions along the LoC and settling border issues peacefully. Other organizations like the ASEAN Regional Forum too supported India's stand on the inviolability of the LOC.[67]

Faced with growing international pressure, Sharif managed to pull back the remaining soldiers from Indian territory. The joint statement issued by Clinton and Sharif conveyed the need to respect the Line of Control and resume bilateral talks as the best forum to resolve all disputes


you should be humiliarted not us ... our troops are busy having fun on the peak right now as they knw the world is with them

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## third eye

Nothing said:


> To Indian posters .. don't debate more .. this is never ending. Keep in mind Kargil war shows how both country can function in totality.. * In Pakistan even PAF was out of scene , which shows professionalism of their army and trust between army and GOP*.Even at time of conflict they were not telling truth that those are their own soldiers ... they never accepted dead bodies and Indian Army gave them last respect... all shows where they are as country stood at that time..



The bold part is not clear.

How could the PAF have joined ? Pak kept saying they were Mujahdeen or some non Mily players the PAF could not have been used in their support. It was only later that it accepted the presence of NLI. It wasn't professionalism but lack of it or circumstance.

Next, any action across the LOC by PAF would tantamount to war which would have suited India very well and it could then open up the western border.


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## darkinsky

The HBS Guy said:


> It can only happen in India that a civilian can beat a soldier without the fear of being shot in the forehead.
> 
> It cannot happen in Pakistan and for that, you have my sympathies.
> 
> An Army which hangs its PM by pressuring the courts.
> 
> An Army which kidnaps and kills Journalists.
> 
> An Army which wages warf without informing its own PM.
> 
> Yes, I agree, you cannot really hope to show them the unarmed man's middle finger.



only happens inn india


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## rockstarIN

RazPaK said:


> This conflict was not a victory by either side. Especially since Pakistan had not prepared properly. However, one thing that can be said was that the Indians were caught with their *pants down*, and humiliated thoroughly.



Who's getting humiliated during the security checks including your above bold part? there holds the Indian victory.


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## Lonely Hermit

> darkinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> only happens inn india
Click to expand...

Why mate ran out of arguements and those soldiers are ducking for cover.

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## anoop

cb4 said:


> I swear this wasn't even a war. No PA No PAF.
> 
> If our F-16s took off from Air Bases, these Indians would pee in their pants. Maybe i should remind how those SU-30s u-turned in 2008...


 
YOUR F-16S WASNT BVR CAPABLE AT THAT POINT . what do u think your air chief was stupid not to use f-16 if it wasnt BVR capable. why do u think PAF now has jf-17 its BVR capable .

whatever kargil was its was stupidly planned , if your kargil planner did involved PAF OR PN its nots our problem . simple our planner involved IAF TO achieve our objective and we did


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## Nothing

third eye said:


> The bold part is not clear.
> 
> How could the PAF have joined ? Pak kept saying they were Mujahdeen or some non Mily players the PAF could not have been used in their support. It was only later that it accepted the presence of NLI. It wasn't professionalism but lack of it or circumstance.
> 
> Next, any action across the LOC by PAF would tantamount to war which would have suited India very well and it could then open up the western border.



Take it in negative way like ... when GF says "I know how much you care about me ... "



anoop said:


> YOUR F-16S WASNT BVR CAPABLE AT THAT POINT . what do u think your air chief was stupid not to use f-16 if it wasnt BVR capable. why do u think PAF now has jf-17 its BVR capable .
> 
> whatever kargil was its was stupidly planned , if your kargil planner did involved PAF OR PN its nots our problem . simple our planner involved IAF TO achieve our objective and we did



For them that was issue of PA or PN or PAF .. not Pakistan's so they never lost it .. it was PAF or PN did ... epic but true


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## LeGenD

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Because they managed to save Lahore...little do they know that they started the war and we reached till Lahore...and we lost the war...this is hilarious!


Pakistani military not just managed to save Lahore but Sialkot. Yes, resources had to be diverted from Kashmir front to save these regions.

And Pakistan also pulled-off Operation Dwarka through Navy.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

darkinsky said:


> only happens inn india



When there is a gunfire, any fool who has survival instincts will take cover. 

Even a animal on hearing gun fire will run away.

The only ones who expose themselves during a gunfire are people who are either suicidal or someone high on drugs.

I don't see how someone taking cover during gunfire is something specific to India?

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## Edevelop

Gautam said:


> First pakistan infiltrate and attack.
> 
> *when Indian army start killing pakistani soldiers*- pakistan say we are not involved in Kargil- they are terrorists!  (who does that? lol)
> 
> I*ndians keep on killing the pakistani soldiers* who infiltrated in Kashmir.
> 
> then this nawaz guy (who had no idea where Pakistan army actually is!) goes to amrika for help. amrika shouts at him and orders him to request pakistan army to get out of Indian territory. but nobody in pakistan army listens to this nawaz! (lol what a hierarchy system!)
> 
> then somehow this nawaz convinces mush to get out of Indian territory before entire pakistan army is killed by evil Hindus.
> 
> *then Indians want to hand over the dead bodies of pakistan soldiers*, which pakistan obviously denies. (because they initially declared no involvement of pakistan army! i can't even lol on this. its very inhuman towards pakistani soldiers by pakistan state.)
> 
> *then Indian army bury the pakistan soldiers with respect.*
> 
> now next is the most funny part...
> 
> after about 10 years - pakistan awards medals to pakistani soldiers who took part in Kargil war! LOLOLOOLOLOL
> what the
> 
> and now pakistani posters say that they were not ready- that's why they lost!
> 
> only god can explain why did pakistan attack if they were not prepared in the first place!



You can kill us as much as you want. Will that effect anything? The answer is a big NO. The funny thing is you will in fact bring Pakistanis together and you will raise our patriotic standard.
So tell me, didn't the Afghans loose a lot of people in war against the British, Soviets, and Americans? Are they losers? umm.. think again i really don't think so. You are forgetting the fact that we are the same as Afghans, we have the same ethnics. Even if the whole world has to declare war on us,i doubt anyone could take over us.

Keep living in dream world Indian. You certainly will not understand us. LOL what happened when you saw surprise attacks in 65 War, Khalistan movement, 98 Nuke Tests and 2008 Mumbai attacks? haha your so called 'best commandos' spent days to find just 1 guy hiding in an obvious corner of a building.

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## Ajaxpaul

cb4 said:


> You can kill us as much as you want. Will that effect anything? The answer is a big NO. The funny thing is you will in fact bring Pakistanis together and you will raise our patriotic standard.
> So tell me, didn't the Afghans loose a lot of people in war against the British, Soviets, and Americans? Are they losers? umm.. think again i really don't think so. You are forgetting the fact that we are the same as Afghans, we have the same ethnics. Even if the whole world has to declare war on us,i doubt anyone could take over us.
> 
> Keep living in dream world Indian. You certainly will not understand us. LOL what happened when you saw surprise attacks in 65 War, Khalistan movement, 98 Nuke Tests and 2008 Mumbai attacks? haha your so called 'best commandos' spent days to find just 1 guy hiding in an obvious corner of a building.




What an immature kid...somebody give him a Red Bull. 

Mr Cb4 you guys won all the wars with India and inflicted more causalities on India than anyone can count. 

Cool down and look forward to a nice lunch.


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## Mav3rick

Saleem said:


> no only army did not know about---only musharaff & a few of his cronies knew about it -----i.e. no real planning was done---no planning for forces needed in light of Indian force levels and capabilities; no planning about logistics: resupply, maintaining supplies; --no operational planning---if the indians decided to take AK or widen the war to all of pk as they would have done if their attempt to retake kargil had failed or pk had really threatened indian position in occupied kashmir----PAF was not on board----Fo was not on board-----in short a total and utter fiasco - front line troops were sent to die much like Enver Pasha,s eastern offensive in 1914 when he sent 90,000 ottoman soldiers to die and then ran away after the attack failed---all senior officers involved in planning (GOC FCNA, Corps Comd, COAS etc need to be courtmartialled and punished)......


 
You mean to say Musharraf just woke up one day and decided to capture Kargil posts? Hmm.......


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## illusion8

Mav3rick said:


> You mean to say Musharraf just woke up one day and decided to capture Kargil posts? Hmm.......



seems like it, Musharaf is a war criminal and probably will stand trial if he ever returns to Pakistan.


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## Mav3rick

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Because they managed to save Lahore...little do they know that they started the war and we reached till Lahore...and we lost the war...this is hilarious!


 
A Country 1/8th your size in population and 1/3rd militarily was not only able to hold you off but capture your territory as well is a victory on its own. Had you achieved 25% of what we did in 1965 you would be claiming yourselves a super power.

Oh wait, you already claim yourself to be a super power right, regional that is. Ofcourse the other countries in that region are Nepal/Bangladesh & Sri Lanka!



itsme said:


> loll pakistanis sitting on top of mountain shot indians right on their heads, 100s were simply killed in the hunt to reach the top. anyways even if u had all the support conclusion would have been the same.
> 
> there is no point of demanding punishment for ur armymen, they gave life for ur country. u should honour and consider them ur heroes, like this.
> 
> this feroz khan, look at his professionalism, to me he looks more like a taliban terrorist than an armyman.
> Moin Akhtar with kargil hero feroz khan.flv - YouTube


 
Atleast he doesn't look like an Indian *****!

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## Jackdaws

RazPaK said:


> We can all agree that Kargil was the effort of one man that would have gone to the depths of hell for recognition. That man was Musharraf.
> 
> Dear Indians,
> 
> I understand that it may hurt your ego, but please look at the number of our forces and your forces.
> 
> Please do not lie about it.
> 
> 
> It was a humiliation of your army.



You know what was humiliating? The humiliation was your Prime Minister Sharif going to the US to beg Clinton to ask Indian troops to ceasefire. And Clinton refusing a photo-op with him and even refusing him entry to the White House. They signed something in Blair House. And yea - Jaswant Singh meeting your Defense Minister for exactly 2 minutes in Delhi and telling him to get lost.

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## Mav3rick

itsme said:


> guys lets finish it by saying that india won but pakistan scored well and killed enough indians to be proud of.


 
And that's where you are wrong, killing Indians does not make us proud. It's only our political agenda that would make us proud but we were unable to accomplish our political agenda whereas India did wonders with their own political agenda despite the fact that the whole Indian military might could not dislodge a few hundred fighters (some soldiers + freedom fighters).



S_O_C_O_M said:


> they are bunch of losers. i was in an "edit war" with these low life scums of the earth, who have nothing better to do than sit in front of the computer far away from mirrors and people.


 
Well.....there's 8/9 of them for every 1 of you so you do the math.


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## ZABASHO

cb4 said:


> You can kill us as much as you want. Will that effect anything?



Yea it would dumbass! There would no more of you left to propagate your false propaganda or boast in vain of false pretenses....

And for your pseudo mighty afghani DNA, one advice.... don't mess with the Sikhs!!! Remember Maharaja Ranjit Singh 
Just our small state of Punjab can take care of your afghani genome, what will you do about the other 27 states!?

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## Jackdaws

ZABASHO said:


> Yea it would dumbass! There would no more of you left to propagate your false propaganda or boast in vain of false pretenses....
> 
> And for your pseudo mighty afghani DNA, one advice.... don't mess with the Sikhs!!! Remember Maharaja Ranjit Singh
> Just our small state of Punjab can take care of your afghani genome, what will you do about the other 27 states!?



You know their entire logic of attacking Kashmir in 1989 through their Mujahids was based on Afghans - they claim the Afghans defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan so dislodging India in Kashmir would be child's play. Except it was not the Afghans who got rid of the Soviets - it was the Americans who did with their sophisticated weapons. You think the Afghans would have stopped the Soviets on horseback and with spears?

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## ZABASHO

Jackdaws said:


> You know their entire logic of attacking Kashmir in 1989 through their Mujahids was based on Afghans - they claim the Afghans defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan so dislodging India in Kashmir would be child's play. Except it was not the Afghans who got rid of the Soviets - it was the Americans who did with their sophisticated weapons. You think the Afghans would have stopped the Soviets on horseback and with spears?



well, they are blinded by false propaganda, let them be, even if after over 2 decades they haven't learnt, then I find it humbling to see them believe in what they do

But I must also add, that there are plenty in Pakistan who wish to normalize relations with Indians, and while some Pakistanis think of themselves as descendants of XYZ, it is not untrue to say we both share common ancestors on a majority and have descended through a very similar culture.


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## Jackdaws

ZABASHO said:


> well, they are blinded by false propaganda, let them be, even if after over 2 decades they haven't learnt, then I find it humbling to see them believe in what they do
> 
> But I must also add, that there are plenty in Pakistan who wish to normalize relations with Indians, and while some Pakistanis think of themselves as descendants of XYZ, it is not untrue to say we both share common ancestors on a majority and have descended through a very similar culture.



There are ethnic similarities between Punjabis on both sides of the border but that is about it. The cultures are pretty different.


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## Edevelop

ZABASHO said:


> Yea it would dumbass! There would no more of you left to propagate your false propaganda or boast in vain of false pretenses....
> 
> And for your pseudo mighty afghani DNA, one advice.... don't mess with the Sikhs!!! Remember Maharaja Ranjit Singh
> J*ust our small state of Punjab can take care of your afghani genome, what will you do about the other 27 states!*?



care to read my whole post?
Why did the Americans loose war after killing millions of Afghanis? dumba$$!!
Are you kidding me? We have Punjabis do. What would yours make a difference? 
Kid just don't mess with Pashtuns. They defeated every single super power that ever existed in this planet!! Your sikhs were doing nothing but chilling in gurdawaras...


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## ZABASHO

Jackdaws said:


> There are ethnic similarities between Punjabis on both sides of the border but that is about it. The cultures are pretty different.



how exactly.... similar households in both, similar domestic culture
similar food (my personal taste goes for Pakistani but too oily!!)
similar clothes

Perhaps the level of similarities is much higher between the bordering states and Pakistan but even then the rest of India is not too different from them either.


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## Indrajith

Let us not troll, let us be clear , my dear pakistani friends what was the objective of the Kargil War / conflict, who initiated it, did the army or mujahadeens attain thier objective, how was it concluded , answer for all the above questions will give the clear answer -- As per me it was a good idea without a proper planning , initially pakistan had success but later they were not able to gather the full support of the political & media establishment that could properly counter Indian propagandas-- In war or conflits media is one of the main weapon that will create your image & support with other countries of the world - rift between the political & army leadership

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## ZABASHO

cb4 said:


> care to read my whole post?
> Why did the Americans loose war after killing millions of Afghanis? dumba$$!!
> Are you kidding me? We have Punjabis do. What would yours make a difference?



When did US loose the war in afghanistan? and when did it kill millions of afghanis???

I was talking about Sikh warriors, but even your punjabis... by your logic are inferior to the mighty afghans?
have you read your history right?? these punjabis of yours were part of the Sikh Empire in 18/19th century and faught against the afghans to butcher them. All afghans can hope for is friendly relations with Pakistani punjabis but I doubt they will ever be as close as other than in press release.


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## Harry Potter

*US JUDGE-PAKISTAN lost wars with India on Kashmir.​*


> The judge also said: "He (Fai) clearly knew, he is being paid... *Pakistan has lost wars with India on Kashmir and so Pakistan is looking for other means to achieve its objectives."*


Fai


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## Edevelop

ZABASHO said:


> When did US loose the war in afghanistan? and when did it kill millions of afghanis???
> 
> I was talking about Sikh warriors, but even your punjabis... by your logic are inferior to the mighty afghans?
> have you read your history right?? these punjabis of yours were part of the Sikh Empire in 18/19th century and faught against the afghans to butcher them. All afghans can hope for is friendly relations with Pakistani punjabis but I doubt they will ever be as close as other than in press release.



haha you know nothing. Punjabis on our side resisted moghul rule, whereas yours became hopeless.
Afghanis? We are the same people. We have the same Pashtuns. And buddy they defeated every single super power that existed on this planet till now


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## ZABASHO

cb4 said:


> haha you know nothing. Punjabis on our side resisted moghul rule, whereas yours became hopeless.
> Afghanis? We are the same people. We have the same Pashtuns. And buddy they defeated every single super power that existed on this planet.



hai allah...... go through the thread again.
Pakistan lost wars: 47, 65, 71, 99
so what exactly did your pashtuns achieve??
During the moghul invasions the Sikh Empire(comprising of present day NWFP, Pakistan-Punjab, Indian-Punjab) resisted moghul rule and forced conversion. After partition the descendants of the people of that empire moved base to India. You only have the location not the generation.

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## POPS

wow what a thread a great pakistani general owt of the box thinks to intrude another country

..the fun starts when Indian intellegence is cought off gaurd but some how manages to regroup & counterattack 

then the world is shocked & Pakistan is suddenly seen as a foolish & unrelaible ally..

then PA deu to pressure withdraws & IA pay's back them in same way ....

the hight is deu to there inflated & bruised egos PA refuses to take back dead bodies of its soldiers & looses all the trust that was left with foreign powers & de moralises the ranks even further

now after almost 12 years PA wakes up & decides celebrates its achievments in Kargil (basically to boost moral in ranks which was very badly mutilated by Americans & there very own assets)

Last but not the least we have some very distinguished Pakistani memmbers thumping there chest over there Great victory ......What a great Logic...

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## Edevelop

ZABASHO said:


> hai allah...... go through the thread again.
> Pakistan lost wars: 47, 65, 71, 99
> so what exactly did your pashtuns achieve??
> During the moghul invasions the Sikh Empire(comprising of present day NWFP, Pakistan-Punjab, Indian-Punjab) resisted moghul rule and forced conversion. After partition the descendants of the people of that empire moved base to India. You only have the location not the generation.



There were 3 wars : 47, 65 and 71.

47: Kashmir divided: Pakistan from beginning was bankrupt. In an agreement with the British in the middle, Indians were supposed to give money that was advantaged from Pakistan and weapons. Unfortunatley we didn't get anything in our hands. both sides killed each other near borders. It is unclear who won because the U.N intervened eventually. It is said that before partition India got most of Kashmir because the British sold it to Indian jagidaars...

65: Even your own people admit that 65 war was won by Pakistan. Indians crossed Lahore and were pushed back hard. In the end, it was India who first called ceasefire. This was a proper man to man war between 2 countries, with NO absolute easy task and nor with any foreign assistance.

71: India won. Managed to break East Pakistan. Again it was an easy task. East Pakistan does not even border with powerful West Pakistan. With India in the middle, it was just matter of blowing air.

99: Not a war. Pakistan Army and Air force were not taking part. Instead, there were few Kashmiri Mujahadeens from G.Baltistan who choose to fight independently.


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## Black Widow

Saleem said:


> no only army did not know about---only musharaff & a few of his cronies knew about it -----i.e. no real planning was done---no planning for forces needed in light of Indian force levels and capabilities; no planning about logistics: resupply, maintaining supplies; --no operational planning---if the indians decided to take AK or widen the war to all of pk as they would have done if their attempt to retake kargil had failed or pk had really threatened indian position in occupied kashmir----PAF was not on board----Fo was not on board-----in short a total and utter fiasco - front line troops were sent to die much like Enver Pasha,s eastern offensive in 1914 when he sent 90,000 ottoman soldiers to die and then ran away after the attack failed---all senior officers involved in planning (GOC FCNA, Corps Comd, COAS etc need to be courtmartialled and punished)......


 


if more ppl would have involved in the incursion, it would have leaked hence india would have taken preemptive majors like we took in 65 , sia-chin.


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## Edevelop

Jackdaws said:


> Yes, it was very brave of the Pakistanis to attack pregnant women and burn children alive. When push came to shove and they faced an equipped opponent, they were killed like dogs in Bombay.



And you didn't kill poor innocent children, mothers, old in Samjhotha Express?


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

cb4 said:


> There were 3 wars : 47, 65 and 71.
> 
> 47: Kashmir divided:* Pakistan from beginning was bankrupt.* In an agreement with the British in the middle, Indians were supposed to give money that was advantaged from Pakistan and weapons. Unfortunatley we didn't get anything in our hands. both sides killed each other near borders. *It is unclear who won because the U.N intervened eventually. It is said that before partition India got most of Kashmir because the British sold it to Indian jagidaars...*



Financially situation was same on either side of border.
Whatever suits you better as you know nothing about history.



> 65: *Even your own people admit that 65 war was won by Pakistan.* Indians crossed Lahore and were pushed back hard. In the end, it was India who first called ceasefire. This was a proper man to man war in between 2 countries.



Anyone of them?
We could not invade lahore as simple as and forget about push back . Again refer some independent sources.



> 71: India won. Managed to break East Pakistan. *Again it was an easy task*. East Pakistan does not even border with powerful West Pakistan. With India in the middle, it was just matter of blowing air.



How many of you have seen such easy tasks?



> 99: Not a war. Pakistan Army and Air force were not taking part. Instead, there were *Kashmiri Mujahadeens from G.Baltistan who choose to fight independently.*



With army ID cards backed by artillery shelling on NH 1 ?



cb4 said:


> And you didn't kill poor innocent children, mothers, old in Samjhotha Express?



Colonel Purohit has been charged with makoka act. Case was investigated by our agencies and culprits are being executed as per our law. What about yours?


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## SP!TF!R3

cb4 said:


> There were 3 wars : 47, 65 and 71.
> 
> 47: *It is said that before partition India got most of Kashmir because the British sold it to Indian jagidaars...
> *
> 65: *Even your own people admit that 65 war was won by Pakistan.*
> 
> 99: *Instead, there were few Kashmiri Mujahadeens from G.Baltistan who choose to fight independently.*



1st bolded part...read history of kashmir...

2nd bolded part...whole world knows who lost...ignoring that fact makes you look like a fool...you started war,we are nearly captured Lahore..so...who won???

3rd part...not mujahidin..SSG and Northern Light Infantry..


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## Edevelop

> How many of you have seen such easy tasks?



You ask how a task can become easy?

Well let me tell you something. Lets say there is a British Island in the Carribean. Its clear that British do not have an army, air force, or nuclear weapons stationed there. Now tell me how easy will it be for U.S Navy and Air Force to go there, few hundred Km away to help the natives achieve Independence? 
This is exactly the same situation that has happened in West Pakistan and East Pakistan case except India was U.S.


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## POPS

for my Pakistani freinds ...with pun intended...

Ae dil tujhe qasam hai Film Dulari Lata Mangeshkar - YouTube

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## K-Xeroid

SP!TF!R3 said:


> 1st bolded part...read history of kashmir...
> 
> 2nd bolded part...whole world knows who lost...ignoring that fact makes you look like a fool...you started war,we are nearly captured Lahore..so...who won???
> 
> 3rd part...not mujahidin..SSG and Northern Light Infantry..


 
He's telling you the histroy, Now you tell Wats your media told ya?
Capturing Lahore?  when did you managed to capture lahore, do you have any source about your claim? There were no SSG in Kargil only few personnals were there to moniter IAF movement on Pakistan's LOC ,it was NLI (A non regular paramilitary not a part of actual military). who contributed to shot down 2 indian jets and a chopper, when it crossed the LOC. while on your side of border the mujahideen have fought the whole war. . Written on wikipedia.

Note: This thread is related with kargil war, 65,47 and 71 are different chapters , and Ofcourse indians are claiming there victory on those occasion using wikipedia as source, not observing that wikipedia is using indian defence ministry as their source.. So we all know that Indian ministry will praise itself.

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## MUHARIB

Awesome thread


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## StormShadow

faizahmad said:


> G8 nations supported India and condemned the Pakistani violation of the LOC at the Cologne summit. The European Union also opposed Pakistan's violation of the LOC.[70] *China, a long-time ally of Pakistan, insisted on a pullout of forces to the pre-conflict positions along the LoC and settling border issues peacefully.*

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## Elley

INDIAN SOLDIER said:


> Financially situation was same on either side of border.
> Whatever suits you better as you know nothing about history.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone of them?
> We could not invade lahore as simple as and forget about push back . Again refer some independent sources.
> 
> 
> 
> How many of you have seen such easy tasks?
> 
> 
> 
> With army ID cards backed by artillery shelling on NH 1 ?
> 
> 
> 
> Colonel Purohit has been charged with makoka act. Case was investigated by our agencies and culprits are being executed as per our law. What about yours?



I don't see anything happening to that terrorist or others. Where are they prosecuted? It just shows that there is a massive infiltration of Hindu terrorists in the Indian army, including at the highest ranks.


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## acetophenol

illusion8 said:


> How did the IN get involved, did they block off naval sea routes of PK?


 
Indian Navy blocked all the sea routes to pakistan and was ready to strike pakistan in case of a full fledged war.


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

Elley said:


> I don't see anything happening to that terrorist or others. Where are they prosecuted? It just shows that there is a *massive infiltration of Hindu terrorists in the Indian army*, including at the highest ranks.



I know that you have came to know after being registered about all these.

Enjoy the party.


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## RazPaK

Cough Cough...Indian coffin scandal.

Lmao


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## JAT BALWAN

RazPaK said:


> Cough Cough...Indian coffin scandal.
> 
> Lmao



Hmmm... jakhmon pe namak chhirak rahe ho...

dont know what discovery we are doing in this thread cos all I found here is 47,65,71... we win you lose, no we win you lose...

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## BLACKEAGLE

So, I thought I was going to read the true story, but all I see is fighting as we all do here. Would anyone volunteer himself to tell the true story or at least provide a link that he trusts?


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## RazPaK

JAT BALWAN said:


> Hmmm... jakhmon pe namak chhirak rahe ho...
> 
> dont know what discovery we are doing in this thread cos all I found here is 47,65,71... we win you lose, no we win you lose...



These threads are like the ritual at Wagah Border, so don't break tradition. Just go with the flow.

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## Mav3rick

acetophenol said:


> Indian Navy blocked all the sea routes to pakistan and was ready to strike pakistan in case of a full fledged war.


 
Indian Navy blocked all sea routes to Pakistan.......with what? A human chain of Indian Navy Sailors floating in life-jackets? You probably believe that Indian Air Force blocked all air routes to Pakistan and Indian Military blocked all land routes to Pakistan!!

LOL....every once in a while, an Indian joker comes along who actually posts something funny unlike the rest of the jokers!!!!


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## RazPaK

BLACKEAGLE said:


> So, I thought I was going to read the true story, but all I see is fighting as we all do here. Would anyone volunteer himself to tell the true story or at least provide a link that he trusts?



Don't go to wikipedia. Just search for kargil war in this forum in the search bar.


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## BLACKEAGLE

Is this the "war" which Indians claimed they were victorious?
Pakistani forces invaded Kargil, had some fight with Indian forces then retreated back under international pressure. Its ridiculous for both sides to claim victory. But that was brave of Pakistanis to do that though.

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## danger007

^^^^please go to school........Pakistan occupied Emptied Indian posts......ask senior Pakistani members...kargil is big blunder for you guys...

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## SQ8

Leaving most of the crap posted here on this thread.. 

The war is simple to sum up..
In the first few weeks of the war .. due to surprise.. Pakistan held high ground overlooking IA supply lines. 
And was able to wreak havoc on a jugular of the IA's Kashmir ops. 
However.. like all misadventures before it.. the PA under Musharraf only thought of the first few weeks.. and not what would happen when the giant woke up..
the result was that the infiltrators and regular troops took a pounding by the IAF..
They were still kept supplied so they could have held out(only JUST..but casualty figures before the withdrawal were below what was expected..testament of PA medevac pilots).. but the Indian leadership clearly told ours that the war would not stay in Kargil for long..that the LOC would be breached and an all out exchange was possible. This shook up the PA command as they(as usual) had not planned for things not going according to plan.. and Nawaz Sharif was told by a nervous Musharraf to go and ask the US to intervene. 
When the US simply said that the PA must withdraw back to its previous positions 
Musharaaf complied.. but since there was no cease fire... so when the IA took those peaks back.. they had the higher ground..
and literally mowed down our retreating troops.(of the approx 4500 lost by PA.. 2/3rds were during the retreat).
Men and equipment had to be left behind.. 
And the Zee Tv propaganda machine did the rest.

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## RazPaK

Oscar said:


> Leaving most of the crap posted here on this thread..
> 
> The war is simple to sum up..
> In the first few weeks of the war .. due to surprise.. Pakistan held high ground overlooking IA supply lines.
> And was able to wreak havoc on a jugular of the IA's Kashmir ops.
> However.. like all misadventures before it.. the PA under Musharraf only thought of the first few weeks.. and not what would happen when the giant woke up..
> the result was that the infiltrators and regular troops took a pounding by the IAF..
> They were still kept supplied so they could have held out(only JUST..but casualty figures before the withdrawal were below what was expected..testament of PA medevac pilots).. but the Indian leadership clearly told ours that the war would not stay in Kargil for long..that the LOC would be breached and an all out exchange was possible. This shook up the PA command as they(as usual) had not planned for things not going according to plan.. and Nawaz Sharif was told by a nervous Musharraf to go and ask the US to intervene.
> When the US simply said that the PA must withdraw back to its previous positions
> *Musharaaf complied.. but since there was no cease fire... so when the IA took those peaks back.. they had the higher ground..
> and literally mowed down our retreating troops.(of the approx 4500 lost by PA.. 2/3rds were during the retreat).
> Men and equipment had to be left behind..
> And the Zee Tv propaganda machine did the rest.*



Cowardly actions by India as usual. Thanks for telling the truth.


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## SQ8

RazPaK said:


> *Cowardly actions by India* as usual. Thanks for telling the truth.



the foolhardy attitude of the PA leadership at the start.. and its cowardice in abandoning its troops at the end top all that.

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## RazPaK

Oscar said:


> the foolhardy attitude of the PA leadership at the start.. and its cowardice in abandoning its troops at the end top all that.



Musharaf's cowardice. However our men were brave, and even the Indians recommended them for awards.


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## acetophenol

Mav3rick said:


> Indian Navy blocked all sea routes to Pakistan.......with what? A human chain of Indian Navy Sailors floating in life-jackets? You probably believe that Indian Air Force blocked all air routes to Pakistan and Indian Military blocked all land routes to Pakistan!!
> 
> LOL....every once in a while, an Indian joker comes along who actually posts something funny unlike the rest of the jokers!!!!


 
Indian navy launched operation talwar in which eastern and western fleets were launched in order to protect indian naval assets against a potential pak naval attack,and all sea routes to pakistan was blocked,cutting fuel supplies to pakistan and potential help from other friendly countries to pakistan.

P.S:brother,
Better choice of words will be good. You may not agree with what i am saying,but express it in a better way.
Thank you

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## mautkimaut

RazPaK said:


> Musharaf's cowardice. However our men were brave, and even the Indians recommended them for awards.



That is true and no one is denying that .
I remember there was one soldier on Pakistan side which was recommended by Indian Army..

Thing is.. IT was a stupid move on Musharraf's part to test the limits of Indian Army..
Tactical brilliance but Strategic blunder..


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> the foolhardy attitude of the PA leadership at the start.. and its cowardice in abandoning its troops at the end top all that.



BTW, Oscar most of the troops involved on the Pakistan side were from the very same NLI now in the tragedy at Giyari. Just that the PA labelled them as insurgents. And just disowned them when the tables turned so dramatically. That accounts for that refusal to accept bodies etc. and the refusal to cite them for gallantry awards till much later (when eventually the NLI was accepted in to the ranks of regular forces); it was that 'non-state actors' script under the "doctrine of plausible deniability" playing itself out as usual.

And it was'nt the first time that GHQ had indulged in a rank misadventure, biting off more than they could chew. Also Oscar, don't forget that the IN was mobilised in full strength and had a blockade in place along with the IA and IAF to move across the LOC in force, while the _then state(?) _of the PAF is common knowledge [check out Aeronaut's (the real one) blog]. About the state of the PN at that time, I need say nothing. 

In the end Nawaz Sharif's (uninvited) desperate trip to Washington (was it to see the 4th of July fire-works? ) and Bill Clinton that pulled Musharraf and PA's _cojones_ out of the fire. Should we lose sight of that?

How Musharraf later repaid his benefactor Nawaz Sharif is now part of Pakistani History.

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## RazPaK

mautkimaut said:


> That is true and no one is denying that .
> I remember there was one soldier on Pakistan side which was recommended by Indian Army..
> 
> Thing is.. IT was a stupid move on Musharraf's part to test the limits of Indian Army..
> Tactical brilliance but Strategic blunder..



Whiskey and studying strategic history don't really go well together.


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## illusion8

Mav3rick said:


> Indian Navy blocked all sea routes to Pakistan.......with what? A human chain of Indian Navy Sailors floating in life-jackets? You probably believe that Indian Air Force blocked all air routes to Pakistan and Indian Military blocked all land routes to Pakistan!!
> 
> LOL....every once in a while, an Indian joker comes along who actually posts something funny unlike the rest of the jokers!!!!




Naval Operations
While the Army and the Air Force readied themselves for the battle on the heights of Kargil, Indian Navy began to draw out its plans. Unlike the earlier wars with Pakistan, this time the bringing in of the Navy at the early stages of the conflict served to hasten the end of the conflict in India's favor.

In drawing up its strategy, the Navy was clear that a reply to the Pakistani misadventure had to be two-pronged. While ensuring safety and security of Indian maritime assets from a possible surprise attack by Pakistan, the Indian imperative was that all efforts must be made to deter Pakistan from escalating the conflict into a full scale war. Thus, the Indian Navy was put on a full alert from May 20 onwards, a few days prior to the launch of the Indian retaliatory offensive. Naval and Coast Guard aircraft were put on a continuous surveillance and the units readied up for meeting any challenge at sea.

Time had now come to put pressure on Pakistan, to ensure that the right message went down to the masterminds in that country. Strike elements from the Eastern Fleet were sailed from Visakhapatnam on the East Coast to take part in a major naval exercise called 'SUMMEREX' in the North Arabian Sea. This was envisaged as the largest ever amassing of naval ships in the region. The message had been driven home. Pakistan Navy, in a defensive mood, directed all its units to keep clear of Indian naval ships. As the exercise shifted closer to the Makaran Coast, Pakistan moved all its major combatants out of Karachi. It also shifted its focus to escorting its oil trade from the Gulf in anticipation of attacks by Indian ships.

As the retaliation from the Indian Army and the Air Force gathered momentum and a defeat to Pakistan seemed a close possibility, an outbreak of hostilities became imminent. Thus the naval focus now shifted to the Gulf of Oman. Rapid reaction missile carrying units and ships from the fleet were deployed in the North Arabian Sea for carrying out missile firing, anti-submarine and electronic warfare exercises. In the absence of the only aircraft carrier, Sea Harrier operations from merchant ships were proven. The Navy also readied itself for implementing a blockade of the Pakistani ports, should the need arise. In addition, Naval amphibious forces from the Andaman group of islands were moved to the western sea-board.

In a skilful use of naval power in the form of 'Operation Talwar', the 'Eastern Fleet' joined the 'Western Naval Fleet' and blocked the Arabian sea routes of Pakistan. Apart from a deterrent, the former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharief later disclosed that Pakistan was left with just six days of fuel (POL) to sustain itself if a full fledged war broke out.


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## drunken-monke

RazPaK said:


> We can all agree that Kargil was the effort of one man that would have gone to the depths of hell for recognition. That man was Musharraf.
> 
> Dear Indians,
> 
> I understand that it may hurt your ego, but please look at the number of our forces and your forces.
> 
> Please do not lie about it.
> 
> 
> It was a humiliation of your army.



Dear Mate,

In lot of your posts you have mentioned that Indians were humiliated.. But would like to remind you that, War heros of our side were hounered; and from your side, even the corpses of the brave one were not accepted... Dont find any better example to show how much humiliation your army had, since they disowned the bodies of the soldiers who got martyred for their nation...

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> * state of the PN at that time, I need say nothing. *



How PN senior sea-going officers begged medical specialists to declare them unfit for war due to knowledge of certain death.
This still does not relieve them of their cowardice... These are no officers.. some of which even made it to the top.
The officers that were, gentlemen.. and all.. are now gone... or very rare.
Those that do display potential ..fall prey to careerism or are whittled out by sycophantic suckups ..
Which is why I say.. and I will be the target of all sorts of accusations .. but I stand firm by.. that taking Pakistan(if no for the nukes) today or breaking it in pieces will be a cakewalk for India compared to 71.

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## RazPaK

drunken-monke said:


> Dear Mate,
> 
> In lot of your posts you have mentioned that Indians were humiliated.. But would like to remind you that, War heros of our side were hounered; and from your side, even the corpses of the brave one were not accepted... Dont find any better example to show how much humiliation your army had, since they disowned the bodies of the soldiers who got martyred for their nation...



They were not accepted as it was supposed to be a covert operation that Musharaf had planned. Whether that was good or bad I will leave that up to you.

However, did India not take it one step further when the coffin scandal was exposed?



Oscar said:


> How PN senior sea-going officers begged medical specialists to declare them unfit for war due to knowledge of certain death.
> This still does not relieve them of their cowardice... These are no officers.. some of which even made it to the top.
> The officers that were, gentlemen.. and all.. are now gone... or very rare.
> Those that do display potential ..fall prey to careerism or are whittled out by sycophantic suckups ..
> Which is why I say.. and I will be the target of all sorts of accusations .. but I stand firm by.. that taking Pakistan(if no for the nukes) today or breaking it in pieces will be a cakewalk for India compared to 71.




Until we destroy and rebuild, separate the cowards from the Patriots, this will remain as the sad fate of Pakistan. However, I see hope around this upcoming election.


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## ManuZ

Predicting future is difficult but predicting what happened in 1998 is still debatable?? wtf????


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## The Great One

Oscar said:


> but I stand firm by.. that taking Pakistan(if no for the nukes) today or breaking it in pieces will be a cakewalk for India compared to 71.


Now this is a trap.


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> How PN senior sea-going officers begged medical specialists to declare them unfit for war due to knowledge of certain death.
> This still does not relieve them of their cowardice... These are no officers.. some of which even made it to the top.
> The officers that were, gentlemen.. and all.. are now gone... or very rare.
> Those that do display potential ..fall prey to careerism or are whittled out by sycophantic suckups ..
> Which is why I say.. and I will be the target of all sorts of accusations .. but I stand firm by.. that taking Pakistan(if no for the nukes) today or breaking it in pieces will be a cakewalk for India compared to 71.




While I have some (informed) opinions on this matter, I shall refrain from comment.

Oscar the last para is redundant, Its simply not worth (Nukes or no Nukes) an exercise for India to break Pakistan into pieces. Hurt Pakistan yes, maybe even by those much vaunted "thousand cuts" and all that jazz. Because Pakistan can do enough damage to itself (Post-Zia) as has been amply demonstrated. India might seek an ailing neighbor not a terminal one. Because that will affect India majorly. And right now India and her populace seeks economic power much more than military power.

Let me add that those "fancy-dancy" Nukes are as much a Bane as they are a Boon for Pakistan. But everybody can have an opinion on that fact.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

BLACKEAGLE said:


> So, I thought I was going to read the true story, but all I see is fighting as we all do here. Would anyone volunteer himself to tell the true story or at least provide a link that he trusts?




I have a report which sees the conflict from a military perspective , its by a neutral American military college.

Its a 103 page thesis.

HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE: THE KARGIL CONFLICT AND THE FUTURE


Also a smaller report from Cambridge

Introduction: the importance of the Kargil conflict

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## darkinsky

Lonely Hermit said:


> Why mate ran out of arguements and those soldiers are ducking for cover.



running forcover, justified

trembling withfear, laughable



Syama Ayas said:


> I have a report which sees the conflict from a military perspective , its by a neutral American military college.
> 
> Its a 103 page thesis.
> 
> HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE: THE KARGIL CONFLICT AND THE FUTURE
> 
> 
> Also a smaller report from Cambridge
> 
> Introduction: the importance of the Kargil conflict



huh?? americans are neutral, last time i heard an american talking about how unprofessional and idiotic indian pilots are and was laughing his arse out


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## Gautam

cb4 said:


> You can kill us as much as you want. Will that effect anything? The answer is a big NO. The funny thing is you will in fact bring Pakistanis together and you will raise our patriotic standard.


what a stupid logic. you become patriot ONLY IF there is a war with India? lol
learn from us dude. we are patriotic 24/7! 



> You are forgetting the fact that we are the same as Afghans, we have the same ethnics. Even if the whole world has to declare war on us,i doubt anyone could take over us.


i know its very hard for you guys to accept your Indian ethnicity. so i leave it there. 


> Keep living in dream world Indian. You certainly will not understand us. LOL what happened when you saw surprise attacks in 65 War, Khalistan movement, 98 Nuke Tests and 2008 Mumbai attacks?


i appreciate your honesty. at least you are accepting that the Mumbai bucks were done by pakistan. 
about khalistan- you thought that it would cut India into some pieces but lol on your luck that they started demanding Lahore! 
and hey- that is long dead my friend. are you still in 90s?lol 

about 65 war- we're still waitin for you in other thread about your explanations and concept of winning it. but i believe in giving the second chances. so I'll wait for you again to explain your victory in 65. 


> haha your so called 'best commandos' spent days to find just 1 guy hiding in an obvious corner of a building.


off topic again. well- i can answer that but i need NOC from the mods for talking about it. because of my flag- i don't have immunity like you buddy. so get me the NOC and we'll talk about it. i promises!


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## acetophenol

darkinsky said:


> running forcover, justified
> 
> trembling withfear, laughable
> 
> 
> 
> huh?? americans are neutral, last time i heard an american talking about how unprofessional and idiotic indian pilots are and was laughing his arse out


 
When did that happen?


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## LeGenD

Kargil was certainly a miscalculation on part of Musharraf. Pakistani armed forces were not properly prepared for war during that time and Kargil was a very bold adventure.

However, Indians exaggerate their accomplishment during Kargil conflict. With only a few thousand troops, we gave India a serious headache.

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## acetophenol

LeGenD said:


> Kargil was certainly a miscalculation on part of Musharraf. Pakistani armed forces were not properly prepared for war during that time and Kargil was a very bold adventure.
> 
> However, Indians exaggerate their accomplishment during Kargil conflict. With only a few thousand troops, we gave India a serious headache.


 
Bro,exaggerate in what way?


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

LeGenD said:


> Kargil was certainly a miscalculation on part of Musharraf. Pakistani armed forces were not properly prepared for war during that time and Kargil was a very bold adventure.
> 
> However, Indians exaggerate their accomplishment during Kargil conflict. With only a few thousand troops, we gave India a serious headache.



The question is even if those _few thousand troops_ continued to hold their positions, what purpose would it serve?

It would be a repeat of 1965 like situation and probably the same end: stalemate.

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## Capt.Popeye

LeGenD said:


> Kargil was certainly a miscalculation on part of Musharraf. Pakistani armed forces were not properly prepared for war during that time and Kargil was a very *bold adventure*.
> However, Indians exaggerate their accomplishment during Kargil conflict. With only a few thousand troops, we gave India a serious headache.



Bold Adventure?? An _idiotic misadventure _born out of a half-baked plan, drawn up by a cabal, led by a fame hungry "commando"!
Sadly it was'nt even the first _misadventure_ for the PA.

In the end the pakistani army and the nation were left wandering "commando" in the world's eyes.

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> While I have some *(informed) opinions on this matter*, I shall refrain from comment.
> 
> Oscar the last para is redundant, Its simply not worth (Nukes or no Nukes) an exercise for India to break Pakistan into pieces. Hurt Pakistan yes, maybe even by those much vaunted "thousand cuts" and all that jazz. Because Pakistan can do enough damage to itself (Post-Zia) as has been amply demonstrated. India might seek an ailing neighbor not a terminal one. Because that will affect India majorly. And right now India and her populace seeks economic power much more than military power.
> 
> Let me add that those "fancy-dancy" Nukes are as much a Bane as they are a Boon for Pakistan. But everybody can have an opinion on that fact.



Would be interested to hear them via PM.. discussion is always healthy..

Id reserve my view on why the nukes are important for Pakistan.. yet the cause of targeted dissection as well.
But there is no denying the fact that the monstrous hydra left by Zia is enough to destroy Pakistan.
And the establishments misadventures since then have not helped either.


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## LeGenD

acetophenol said:


> Bro,exaggerate in what way?


Accomplishments during the battle.

I am not saying that Indian military was incompetent. According to decent assessments, Indian forces managed to recapture at least 2 peaks with their own effort. However, many peaks were handed on silver plate to Indian forces afterwards due to abrupt withdrawal orders on Pakistani front. I have personally seen heavy equipment used in Kargil conflict on the front lines. These include the famous big guns that were used to defend Lahore during 1965 clash. The equipment is in perfect shape and I have also met with troops who have manned this equipment during Kargil conflict.

Point is that Indians exaggerate a lot and Indian propaganda is very effective.

It is common knowlege in military field that the side which is on higher ground; will have advantage in clash against the side which is on lower ground. This is why Indian Airforce was called in for support. However, some Jets were shot down by Pakistani troops. 

In the end, Indians forces were better prepared because both the Airforce and Naval wings were active. The picture of Pakistan was different.

However, the greatest blunder committed by Musharraf was abrupt withdrawal during the phase of clashes. Proper approach should have been to seek ceasefire first.

NOW - Pakistan military is fully prepared for war. This is after a long long time.



Syama Ayas said:


> The question is even if those _few thousand troops_ continued to hold their positions, what purpose would it serve?
> 
> It would be a repeat of 1965 like situation and probably the same end: stalemate.


I agree.

One of the reasons that Kargil offensive was called off.


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## Capt.Popeye

Syama Ayas said:


> The question is even if those _few thousand troops_ continued to hold their positions, what purpose would it serve?
> 
> It would be a repeat of 1965 like situation and probably the same end: *stalemate*.



Syama, you forget one major thing! There was no parallel, between 1965 and Kargil. Esp. in terms of world politics or India's position on the world stage. Compare the US and Russian stance in Kargil to the US/Soviet stance in 1965. Most of all compare India's postion in 1965 when India accepted the super-power stance and even accepted mediation. In Kargil, India just upped the ante and the "big-guns" played along. A sea change there. Which is why China also remained 'hands-off' in Kargil and actually counselled Pakistan to go back. Because, they simply did not want to bail out the PA.

*No chance of any stalemate there, my friend. Kargil changed all the regional power equations for ever*.

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## acetophenol

LeGenD said:


> Accomplishments during the battle.
> 
> I am not saying that Indian military was incompetent. According to decent assessments, Indian forces managed to recapture at least 2 peaks with their own effort. However, many peaks were handed on silver plate to Indian forces afterwards due to abrupt withdrawal orders on Pakistani front. I have personally seen heavy equipment used in Kargil conflict on the front lines. These include the famous big guns that were used to defend Lahore during 1965 clash. The equipment is in perfect shape and I have also met with troops who have manned this equipment during Kargil conflict.
> 
> Point is that Indians exaggerate a lot and Indian propaganda is very effective.
> 
> It is common knowlege in military field that the side which is on higher ground; will have advantage in clash against the side which is on lower ground. This is why Indian Airforce was called in for support. However, some Jets were shot down by Pakistani troops.
> 
> In the end, Indians forces were better prepared because both the Airforce and Naval wings were active. The picture of Pakistan was different.
> 
> However, the greatest blunder committed by Musharraf was abrupt withdrawal. Proper approach should have been to seek cease-fire first.
> 
> NOW - Pakistan military is fully prepared for war. This is after a long long time.


Brother,
Thank you for the nice reply,and i am cannot agree with you and i believe you are wrong


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## LeGenD

acetophenol said:


> Brother,
> Thank you for the nice reply,and i am cannot agree with you and i believe you are wrong


I don't blame you. Indian indoctrination is very effective. However, my response is based on ground realities.

If you think that Pakistani troops are very incompetent then you are only fooling yourself. Even western analysts will disagree with you when talking about quality of Pakistani troops.

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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Syama, you forget one major thing! There was no parallel, between 1965 and Kargil. Esp. in terms of world politics or India's position on the world stage. Compare the US and Russian stance in Kargil to the US/Soviet stance in 1965. Most of all compare India's postion in 1965 when India accepted the super-power stance and even accepted mediation. In Kargil, India just upped the ante and the "big-guns" played along. A sea change there. Which is why China also remained 'hands-off' in Kargil and actually counselled Pakistan to go back. Because, they simply did not want to bail out the PA.
> 
> *No chance of any stalemate there, my friend. Kargil changed all the regional power equations for ever*.



There was nothing Pakistan could offer to the permanent members of the security council in return for a stalemate.
It was a rogue nuclear power,under sanctions, military outgunned and was the aggressor in this conflict.


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> There was nothing Pakistan could offer to the permanent members of the security council in return for a stalemate.
> It was a rogue nuclear power,under sanctions, military outgunned and was the aggressor in this conflict.



Has anything substantive changed in that description since then?


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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> Has anything substantive changed in that description since then?


Yes.

Pakistan has gained international recognition for its role in WOT. And Pakistani military is more mature and considerably better prepared for eventualities now.

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## VCheng

LeGenD said:


> Yes.
> 
> Pakistan has gained international recognition for its role in WOT. And Pakistani military is more mature and considerably better prepared for eventualities now.



Gained recognition? Then why the increasing perception that Pakistan is an adversary than an ally?

A mature military? Not at all; it is the same.

Better prepared for eventualities? More nukes? Look at the economy!

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## acetophenol

LeGenD said:


> I don't blame you. Indian indoctrination is very effective. However, my response is based on ground realities.
> 
> If you think that Pakistani troops are very incompetent then you are only fooling yourself. Even western analysts will disagree with you when talking about quality of Pakistani troops.


 
I never said that pak troops were incompetent. Theres no doubt in PA's proffesionalism.

But kargil war was a ill-planned,unneccessary misadventure of pakistan.


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## IAFJawaan

Gautam said:


> First pakistan infiltrate and attack.
> 
> when Indian army start killing pakistani soldiers- pakistan say we are not involved in Kargil- they are terrorists!  (who does that? lol)
> 
> Indians keep on killing the pakistani soldiers who infiltrated in Kashmir.
> 
> then this nawaz guy (who had no idea where Pakistan army actually is!) goes to amrika for help. amrika shouts at him and orders him to request pakistan army to get out of Indian territory. but nobody in pakistan army listens to this nawaz! (lol what a hierarchy system!)
> 
> then somehow this nawaz convinces mush to get out of Indian territory before entire pakistan army is killed by evil Hindus.
> 
> then Indians want to hand over the dead bodies of pakistan soldiers, which pakistan obviously denies. (because they initially declared no involvement of pakistan army! i can't even lol on this. its very inhuman towards pakistani soldiers by pakistan state.)
> 
> then Indian army bury the pakistan soldiers with respect.
> 
> now next is the most funny part...
> 
> after about 10 years - pakistan awards medals to pakistani soldiers who took part in Kargil war! LOLOLOOLOLOL
> what the
> 
> and now pakistani posters say that they were not ready- that's why they lost!
> 
> only god can explain why did pakistan attack if they were not prepared in the first place!



Pwned!! lol


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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> Gained recognition? Then why the increasing perception that Pakistan is an adversary than an ally?


Don't judge the position of Pakistan just on the basis of relationship with USA. Many other nations appreciate Pakistani role in WOT.

Here is an example from a European country:

Spain confers highest military honour upon Kayani &#8211; The Express Tribune



VCheng said:


> A mature military? Not at all; it is the same.


No, it has improved. Kayani is a professional man, regardless of how is perceived by some. Military is trying to improve its image locally.



VCheng said:


> Better prepared for eventualities? More nukes? Look at the economy!


Not just the nukes. All departments of defense are better prepared now then they ever had been in decades.

Yes, economy is an issue. But this is another topic.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> There was nothing Pakistan could offer to the permanent members of the security council in return for a stalemate.
> It was a rogue nuclear power,under sanctions, military outgunned and was the aggressor in this conflict.



I'll only say this again: Pakistan ended up going "COMMANDO" in the worlds eyes because of that commando General Musharraf..
Any other comment on my part will only feed the _"verbal commandos"_ on this forum. 

That apart, I believe that India should thank that commando for Kargil, because he helped India to achieve a certain world stature that India did not get earlier. Most of all; finally India got de-hyphenated from Pakistan. For some (may be odd) reasons India and Pakistan (mostly in western eyes) were seen as some odd "siamese twins". That was ruptured and that was the biggest thing that India could hope for. *Which is why I say, that Kargil has changed all the regional power equations for ever and there will never be a reversion.*

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## LeGenD

acetophenol said:


> I never said that pak troops were incompetent. Theres no doubt in PA's proffesionalism.
> 
> But kargil war was a ill-planned,unneccessary misadventure of pakistan.


This I agree with.


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## Rocky25

VCheng said:


> Gained recognition? Then why the increasing perception that Pakistan is an adversary than an ally?
> 
> A mature military? Not at all; it is the same.
> 
> Better prepared for eventualities? More nukes? Look at the economy!



Be prepared for others to call you a false flagger, But sincerely I wonder which 'International' recognized Pakistan for its role in WOT! Even the Pakistani news paper does not claim like that!

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## illusion8

LeGenD said:


> Don't judge the position of Pakistan just on the basis of relationship with USA. Many other nations appreciate Pakistani role in WOT.
> 
> Here is an example from a Europeon country:
> 
> Spain confers highest military honour upon Kayani &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> No, it has improved. Kayani is a professional man, regardless of how is perceived by some. Military is trying to improve its image locally.
> 
> 
> Not just the nukes. All departments of defense are better prepared now then they ever had been in decades.
> 
> Yes, economy is an issue. But this is another topic.



Yeah but your enemy is also not the same of 99 capabilities now. It wouldn't take much to bring Pakistan down now for India as well if we want to.


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## Mav3rick

acetophenol said:


> Indian navy launched operation talwar in which eastern and western fleets were launched in order to protect indian naval assets against a potential pak naval attack,and all sea routes to pakistan was blocked,cutting fuel supplies to pakistan and potential help from other friendly countries to pakistan.
> 
> P.S:brother,
> Better choice of words will be good. You may not agree with what i am saying,but express it in a better way.
> Thank you


 
How can I be serious when you actually believe that stuff? PN & PAF were never supposed to be a part of the Kargil conflict because it was always planned to be a limited scale conflict to force India to the table by highlighting the potential threat of a war b/w Nuclear Armed neighbors to the rest of the world.

Else PN/PAF and PA would have given India an even worse run for the money then they gave in 1965.


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## SP!TF!R3

Android K-Zero said:


> He's telling you the histroy, Now you tell Wats your media told ya?
> Capturing Lahore?  when did you managed to capture lahore, do you have any source about your claim? There were no SSG in Kargil only few personnals were there to moniter IAF movement on Pakistan's LOC ,it was NLI (A non regular paramilitary not a part of actual military). who contributed to shot down 2 indian jets and a chopper, when it crossed the LOC. while on your side of border the mujahideen have fought the whole war. . *Written on wikipedia*.
> 
> *Note: This thread is related with kargil war, 65,47 and 71 are different chapters , and Ofcourse indians are claiming there victory on those occasion using wikipedia as source, not observing that wikipedia is using indian defence ministry as their source.. So we all know that Indian ministry will praise itself*.



1st part..go to wikipedia and read it....then make comment..

2nd part..you brought the topic of 47,65,71...i didn't...


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## LeGenD

Rocky25 said:


> Be prepared for others to call you a false flagger, But sincerely I wonder which 'International' recognized Pakistan for its role in WOT! Even the Pakistani news paper does not claim like that!


You need to do more digging then.



illusion8 said:


> Yeah but your enemy is also not the same of 99 capabilities now. It wouldn't take much to bring Pakistan down now for India as well if we want to.


No, military has maintained its funds for war with India. These funds will remain untouched.

Underestimating Pakistan now will be serious blunder. Indian military has got a minor glimpse during attempted air raid in to Pakistan in 2008. And later with helicopter incident.

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## SP!TF!R3

LeGenD said:


> Yes.
> 
> Pakistan has gained international recognition for its role in WOT. And Pakistani military is more mature and considerably better prepared for eventualities now.



yup..Pak got international recognition...but only for providing shelters to taliban and supporting them..don't know what you guys are believe...but WOT is disaster for Pakistan...because everybody is beating you guys..both taliban and USA(using drones)..



LeGenD said:


> Underestimating Pakistan now will be serious blunder. Indian military has got a *minor glimpse* during attempted air raid in to Pakistan in 2008.



which glimpse buddy???readily agreeing to send Pasha (isi chief) to india???

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## LeGenD

SP!TF!R3 said:


> yup..Pak got international recognition...but only for providing shelters to taliban and supporting them..don't know what you guys are believe...but WOT is disaster for Pakistan...because everybody is beating you guys..both taliban and USA(using drones)..


Sorry! You are reading too much in to media propaganda.

Our beef has been mainly with TTP and Pakistan military has made good progress in fight against TTP. Pakistan also has played important role in nabbing of many terrorists hiding in Pakistan.


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## VCheng

LeGenD said:


> Don't judge the position of Pakistan just on the basis of relationship with USA. Many other nations appreciate Pakistani role in WOT.



Not just USA with the blockade, but you may see that OBL, Dr. Afridi, and now HS are not exactly accolades that work in Pakistan's favor with most countries of the world.



LeGenD said:


> No, it has improved. Kayani is a professional man, regardless of how is perceived by some. Military is trying to improve its image locally.



The military is much more than just Gen Kayani. That has not changed.



LeGenD said:


> Not just the nukes. All departments of defense are better prepared now then they ever had been in decades.



All departments continue to have recognized vulnerabilities that can be easily exploited by an adversary.



LeGenD said:


> Yes, economy is an issue. But this is another topic.



Another topic perhaps, but an overriding issue that trumps most defense issues nonetheless.


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## SP!TF!R3

LeGenD said:


> Our beef has been mainly with TTP and Pakistan military has made good progress in fight against TTP. Pakistan also has played important role in nabbing of *many terrorists *hiding in Pakistan.



buddy..its your military who is providing shelter...how many link you want to support this???none will be Indian...tell me,how Osama was hiding in Pakistan,and how the building was just beside army base but your army never got a whiff???but USA did???

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## LeGenD

SP!TF!R3 said:


> which glimpse buddy???readily agreeing to send Pasha (isi chief) to india???


This incident:

PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - Indian fighter jets violate Pakistan Air Space

And this incident:

The Hindu : News / National : Indian Army copter forced to land in Pakistan, released



SP!TF!R3 said:


> buddy..its your military who is providing shelter...how many link you want to support this???none will be Indian...tell me,how Osama was hiding in Pakistan,and how the building was just beside army base but your army never got a whiff???but USA did???


You are speculating on the basis of foolish media propaganda from WEST.

Here are some facts:



> Pakistan has been a key ally of the United States in war on terror and its security forces have captured more than 500 al Qaeda and Taliban fugitives since the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.


Source: http://ipripak.org/factfiles/ff54.shtml



> The U.S.-Pakistan relationship changed significantly once Pakistan agreed to support the U.S. campaign to eliminate the Taliban in Afghanistan and to join the United States in the Global War on Terror. Since September 2001, Pakistan has provided extensive assistance in the war on terror by capturing more than 600 al-Qaida members and their allies.


Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/forel-usa.htm


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## Capt.Popeye

Mav3rick said:


> How can I be serious when you actually believe that stuff? PN & PAF were never supposed to be a part of the Kargil conflict because it was always planned to be a limited scale conflict to force India to the table by highlighting the potential threat of a war b/w Nuclear Armed neighbors to the rest of the world.
> 
> *Else PN/PAF and PA would have given India an even worse run for the money then they gave in 1965*.



That statement is simply born out of ignorance. Otherwise I'd just LMAO.
Read the blogs written by a very distinguished retired PAF Air Cdre. Kaiser Tufail under the name of _*Aeronaut*_, the asli one. He will be able to enlighten you on the state of the PAF at that time.
About the PN, read back a few pages on this thread; you will understand the real state of men and material in the PN vis-a-vis the IN at that time. That might enlighten you too.

About GHQ's plan for Kargil, I'm sorry to say again that it was simply:
An idiotic misadventure born out of a half-baked plan, drawn up by a cabal, led by a fame hungry "commando"!
Sadly it was'nt even the first misadventure for the PA.

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## Sharath

LeGenD said:


> Not just the nukes. All departments of defense are better prepared now then they ever had been in decades.
> Yes, economy is an issue. But this is another topic.


Yes..seen in US raid on Bin ladan..how effective Pak air defences are...


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## acetophenol

Mav3rick said:


> How can I be serious when you actually believe that stuff? PN & PAF were never supposed to be a part of the Kargil conflict because it was always planned to be a limited scale conflict *to force India to the table by highlighting the potential threat of a war b/w Nuclear Armed neighbors to the rest of the world.*
> 
> Else PN/PAF and PA would have given India an even worse run for the money then they gave in 1965.


 
I never told that PN was involved in the war. IN has prepared itself against 'potential' PN strikes and also blocked sea routes to pakistan.

BTW, pls explain the bold statement.


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## LeGenD

VCheng said:


> Not just USA with the blockade, but you may see that OBL, Dr. Afridi, and now HS are not exactly accolades that work in Pakistan's favor with most countries of the world.


US decision to go unilateral in this case was a bad decision. Blame Obama for his idiotic move.



VCheng said:


> The military is much more than just Gen Kayani. That has not changed.


Kayani is the chief representative of Pakistan military. His actions will shape the image of military.



VCheng said:


> All departments continue to have recognized vulnerabilities that can be easily exploited by an adversary.


Level of preparedness is good enough for India.



VCheng said:


> Another topic perhaps, but an overriding issue that trumps most defense issues nonetheless.


Military has budget.



Sharath said:


> Yes..seen in US raid on Bin ladan..how effective Pak air defences are...


US intruders were actually detected. The rest was left to politics.


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## ashokdeiva

For Gods sake INDIANS please back off from this topic, a person who has not achieved any feets in his real life only will bost about how brave he was, these internet Pakitani Warriors are nothing but people with massive infiriority complex. Debating with them will only reduce our status as far as this topic is considered.

@Brave Pakistani Internet Warriors, you guys have won all the wars that you persued with us in the past, does that statment make you happy, now go to bed or move to some other topic or roll here and INDIANS kindly stop posting in this thread. We know the news of all the wars as it happened and as it was, but the other side of the border we all know how their media is writing their article.

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## Pukhtoon

Well as per indians they won and Pakistan lost the war and they are rite coz Kargil is with them. BUT

i) Can any one explain why western (BBC CNN) and Pakistani News Channels were banned that time ?

ii) After the war there was a scam of corruption in buying steel casket from a western country for those army men which i saw on a indian news channel that time.The defence minster of that time i guess was Mr George Fernandos. So that was true or false and what were the number of casulties of indian army.

oh here is the link.

A cover-up game

iii) Did indians know that Nawaz Shreef went to USA at that time and when he came back our army leaves kargil ?

iv) Did indians saw Musharaf pic in a kargil post with that indian army pistol ?

Oh And what about that water treaty how that came to reality what was the reason for SINDTAS agreement

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## illusion8

LeGenD said:


> You need to do more digging then.
> 
> 
> No, military has maintained its funds for war with India. These funds will remain untouched.
> 
> Underestimating Pakistan now will be serious blunder. Indian military has got a minor glimpse during attempted air raid in to Pakistan in 2008. And later with helicopter incident.



U cannot withstand a full fledged conventional all forces attack by India for more than a few days. period.

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## RazPaK

> For Gods sake INDIANS please back off from this topic, a person who has not achieved any feets in his real life only will bost about how brave he was, these internet Pakitani Warriors are nothing but people with massive infiriority complex. Debating with them will only reduce our status as far as this topic is considered.




Not achieved anything? Stop flaming before I destroy your illusions of SHINY INCREDIBLE India SUPAPOWA TIGER status.


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## LeGenD

illusion8 said:


> U cannot withstand a full fledged conventional all forces attack by India for more than a few days. period.


This is an illusion.

Pakistan has considerably changed since Kargil.

This is for India:

Military Exercise 'Azm-e-Nau 3'






And Pakistan missile delivery systems are in excellent shape and state of prepardness.

You will not just face Pakistani military regulars but also a large militia force.

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## MM_Haider

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Because they managed to save Lahore...little do they know that they started the war and we reached till Lahore...and we lost the war...this is hilarious!



you reached till lahore?? i think this is what you are taught in school.. the truth is that india couldn't manage to cross even BRB canal and Pakistan captured hundreds of square miles ...






Men of Steel (6 Armoured Div) with one of the captured Centurions in the battlefield - 1965 War.







War trophy: Centurion tank of Lt. Col. Tarapore, CO 17 (Poona) Horse, bearing the title 'Fakhar-e-Hind' (Pride of India) captured by 25 Cavalry, on display in the unit.





Pakistani gunners are giving an expert look-over to captured Indian field guns. The Indians left enough pieces in Chamb area alone to equip two Field Regiments. (1965 War)





An operational tank squadron of the Pakistan army equipped with the Indian tanks (French-built AMXs) captured in the Chamb battle, out on manoeuvres. (1965 War) 





A captured Indian AMX tank in the hands of Pakistani tanks men. (1965 War) 





Infantry soldiers taking positions on the bank of a water obstacle. (1965 War)

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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Has anything substantive changed in that description since then?



Well.. at first the idea was to leave Pakistan alone..
Now the idea seems to be to sort the mess out once and for all to benefit the powers that be..whether Pakistan survives or millions in it die is irrelevant.

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## SP!TF!R3

LeGenD said:


> And Pakistan missile delivery systems are in excellent shape and state of prepardness.
> 
> You will not just face Pakistani military regulars but also a large militia force.



so????you are just amature buddy..india did this kind of war exercise in dozens every year...

and by the way...india always faced this kind of threats from Pakistan..we are comfortable in both full fledge war and proxy war..



MM_Haider said:


> you reached till lahore?? i think this is what you are taught in school.. the truth is that india couldn't manage to cross even BRB canal and Pakistan captured hundreds of square miles ...
> 
> Men of Steel (6 Armoured Div) with one of the captured Centurions in the battlefield - 1965 War.
> 
> 
> 
> War trophy: Centurion tank of Lt. Col. Tarapore, CO 17 (Poona) Horse, bearing the title 'Fakhar-e-Hind' (Pride of India) captured by 25 Cavalry, on display in the unit.
> 
> Pakistani gunners are giving an expert look-over to captured Indian field guns. The Indians left enough pieces in Chamb area alone to equip two Field Regiments. (1965 War)



i'm going to post only single link...

Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

read and draw the conclusion....

by the way..this thread is on 1999 Kargil war..not 1965 war..


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## K-Xeroid

SP!TF!R3 said:


> so????you are just amature buddy..india did this kind of war exercise in dozens every year...
> 
> and by the way...india always faced this kind of threats from Pakistan..we are comfortable in both full fledge war and proxy war..


If That so then I hope you won't consider Kargil as a war, where our NLI and Mujhideen of Indian side scored really well, Even at then india needs clintin to interfere. But things are change and more importantly under controlled today. Well ! If you read current indian status in the region then almost all major nieghbouring nations consider you as a threat.. Whether it is China, Pakistan, Srilanka or Bangladesh.. So it proves that Its not others who create problems . its you who creates problem.


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## Tija

^^^^^^^

So what you won ?


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Well.. at first the idea was to leave Pakistan alone..
> Now the idea seems to be to sort the mess out once and for all to benefit the powers that be..whether Pakistan survives or millions in it die is irrelevant.



Well, like I have said it before, the mess will be cleaned up, one way or another.

It will be better if we do it for ourselves before others come to the conclusion that they need to do it themselves where we have failed.

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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Well, like I have said it before, the mess will be cleaned up, one way or another.
> 
> It will be better if we do it for ourselves before others come to the conclusion that they need to do it themselves where we have failed.



Because when they do it.. they will use their perception.. and not ours for a cleanup.

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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Because when they do it.. they will use their perception.. and not ours for a cleanup.



Exactly correct. It won't be pretty if it comes to that.

I do believe there is enough time, but just barely, for like-minded sane people to prevent things from getting to that point.


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## K-Xeroid

SP!TF!R3 said:


> i'm going to post only single link...
> 
> Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> read and draw the conclusion....
> 
> by the way..this thread is on 1999 Kargil war..not 1965 war..


 
For GOD Sake Read the refrences taken in your source, Almost all are taken from indian sources. Stop behaving like Fanboys.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Well.. at first the idea was to leave Pakistan alone..
> Now the idea seems to be to sort the mess out once and for all to benefit the powers that be..whether Pakistan survives or millions in it die is irrelevant.



I don't think that it is irrelevant. I can't speak for the people within the borders, but just across the borders (for the decision-makers certainly) it is really an issue. Many events/actions that are taking place in the neighborhood, seem to have factored that in. I hope you may not find that surprising, Oscar.



BTW, around us the "_baccha-log_" seem to have descended in to the maelstrom of a _Kabbadi_ match. Good for them


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## Moorkh

Capt.Popeye said:


> I'll only say this again: Pakistan ended up going "COMMANDO" in the worlds eyes because of that commando General Musharraf..
> Any other comment on my part will only feed the _"verbal commandos"_ on this forum.
> 
> That apart, I believe that India should thank that commando for Kargil, because he helped India to achieve a certain world stature that India did not get earlier. Most of all; finally India got de-hyphenated from Pakistan. For some (may be odd) reasons India and Pakistan (mostly in western eyes) were seen as some odd "siamese twins". That was ruptured and that was the biggest thing that India could hope for. *Which is why I say, that Kargil has changed all the regional power equations for ever and there will never be a reversion.*



Kargil did not de-hyphenate india and pakistan. India and pakistan stayed hyphenated till much later, specially during Op Parakram. It was only later with the taliban resurgence in afganistan that pakistan was clubbed into ****** and removed from indo-pak. 

kargil surely embarrassed pakistan but the conflict between india and pakistan kept the hyphenation present. now the conflict between india and pakistan is far less, as portrayed by india when the army was not mobilised in response to the mumbai attacks. hence the affect pakistan has on afganistan cam further into the limelight.


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## Capt.Popeye

VCheng said:


> Well, like I have said it before, the mess will be cleaned up, one way or another.
> 
> It will be better if we do it for ourselves before others come to the conclusion that they need to do it themselves where we have failed.



I earnestly hope that things do not come to that pass. I am willing to be optimistic, even if it seems futile. But if there is a genuine internal movement, then even external entities may help to sustain/support that in a genuinely constructive and objectively unbiased manner. 

Living on the edge can affect many people; those living on the edge and those who might come in the way when somebody falls over the edge.


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## genmirajborgza786

cb4 said:


> You can kill us as much as you want. Will that effect anything? The answer is a big NO. The funny thing is you will in fact bring Pakistanis together and you will raise our patriotic standard.
> So tell me, didn't the Afghans loose a lot of people in war against the British, Soviets, and Americans? Are they losers? umm.. think again i really don't think so. You are forgetting the fact that we are the same as Afghans, we have the same ethnics. Even if the whole world has to declare war on us,i doubt anyone could take over us.
> 
> Keep living in dream world Indian. You certainly will not understand us. LOL what happened when you saw surprise attacks in 65 War, Khalistan movement, 98 Nuke Tests and *2008 Mumbai attacks*? haha your so called 'best commandos' spent days to find just 1 guy hiding in an obvious corner of a building.



cb4 that was really an unethical & uncalled for rant boasting about attacks on innocent civilians is as shameful as it gets period.
now on topic kargil should have never been initiated it, was a badly planed with no foresighted objectives defined where the air force & the navy was not even taken into consideration neither was the threat of a possible naval blocked by the IN on Karachi & its consequences, the worst impact of the kargil fiasco was the modernization of the Indian arm-force which has become a source concern for Pakistan one should never give its rival the chance to realize its own weak points thus accelerating a process whereby giving it an opportunity of strengthening them. tell me how can this be good for Pakistan ? by doing kargil musharraf did exactly that

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## Capt.Popeye

Moorkh said:


> Kargil did not de-hyphenate india and pakistan. India and pakistan stayed hyphenated till much later, specially during Op Parakram. It was only later with the taliban resurgence in afganistan that pakistan was clubbed into ****** and removed from indo-pak.
> 
> kargil surely embarrassed pakistan but the conflict between india and pakistan kept the hyphenation present. now the conflict between india and pakistan is far less, as portrayed by india when the army was not mobilised in response to the mumbai attacks. hence the affect pakistan has on afganistan cam further into the limelight.



I beg to disagree. Kargil was the beginning of the process. For the first time, Kargil did not see Uncle breathing down India's neck and India falling into line. Rather India did exactly the opposite, it simply upped the ante and pulled it off. Uncle (and nearly everybody else who mattered) told Pakistan to come down, they did not push for a 'cease-fire' which India would have thumbed its nose at anyway. That was the 'big difference'. That was among the diplomatic achievements (among others like 1971 etc.) that India got in its bag. What you describe is the closing of the process. Don't get taken in by the change of terminology, that is a mere technicality.

And there will be no going back.


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## joekrish

VCheng said:


> Well, like I have said it before, the mess will be cleaned up, one way or another.
> 
> It will be better if we do it for ourselves before others come to the conclusion that they need to do it themselves where we have failed.




I hope and prey it does not come down to that, it will also effect India in more than one way.


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## SQ8

Any more posts on other than Kargil.. and any more posts less than intelligent will be dealt with severely.


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## 53fd

*In terms of land:*

1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.

*In terms of troops:*

1999 war:

Indian troop strength: 30,000
Pakistan troop strength: 5000

Indian troops losses: 527 
Pakistan troops losses: 626

India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Any more posts on other than Kargil.. and any more posts less than intelligent will be dealt with severely.



Originally Posted by Oscar 


> Because when they do it.. they will use their perception.. and not ours for a cleanup.



You really did a good sweep on this thread to effect a cleanup.

Just In Time. 



bilalhaider said:


> *In terms of land:*
> 
> 1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.



Did the Pakistan need much persuasion from the US??  Just asking.


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## Joe Shearer

RazPaK said:


> Whiskey and studying strategic history don't really go well together.



Nobody tells me these things in time!!

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## fd24

bilalhaider said:


> *In terms of land:*
> 
> 1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.
> 
> *In terms of troops:*
> 
> 1999 war:
> 
> Indian troop strength: 30,000
> Pakistan troop strength: 5000
> 
> Indian troops losses: 527
> Pakistan troops losses: 626
> 
> India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
> Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded



Thanks for the stats Bilal bhai - as ever you love the stats. In terms of land - where do you fit point 5353 in your analysis?

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> *In terms of land:*
> 
> 1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.



LOL....US persuasion of Pakistan was to make sure the Indians did not cross the LoC.

If I occupy your house when you are out of town and you beat me out of it after returning..then its not "stalemate" for me..It's fcking loosing for me. 

Pakistanis and their convoluted theories...



superkaif said:


> Thanks for the stats Bilal bhai - as ever you love the stats. In terms of land - where do you fit point 5353 in your analysis?



Tank ji...think a bit harder..if it was a stalemate or not...

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## 53fd

superkaif said:


> Thanks for the stats Bilal bhai - as ever you love the stats. In terms of land - where do you fit point 5353 in your analysis?



Good point. Peak 5353 is still in Pakistan's control. I'm not sure if I can get the area for that lol.



Bhairava said:


> LOL....US persuasion of Pakistan was to make sure the Indians did not cross the LoC.
> 
> If I occupy your house when you are out of town and you beat me out of it after returning..then its not "stalemate" for me..It's fcking loosing for me.



Actually, after Pakistan captured Indian territory, India went to the US; & the Clinton administration pressurized the Nawaz government, who then asked the troops to retreat. That is when India recaptured its lost territory. It was a diplomatic victory for India, no doubt about it.

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Actually, after Pakistan captured Indian territory, India went to the US; & the Clinton administration pressurized the Nawaz government, who then asked the troops to retreat. That is when India recaptured its lost territory. It was a diplomatic victory for India, no doubt about it.



Saying "actually" does not mean it happened "actually"...

The truth - Mian sahab was not even aware of this blunder from the aging commando and had to catch the next flight to DC to request US to pressure India from not crossing the LoC in Punjab sector. A thing that happened during Operation Grand Slam when India countered the Pak thrust into Akhnoor by launching its own counter-thrust in Punjab sector, crossing LoC and reaching the outskirts of Lahore.

US in turn asked him to first remove his troops from Kargil. But then as with all other matters, Mian Sahab had little or no control over the operation and India had to remove the tropps/mujaheddin the old fashioned way.


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## joekrish

Bhairava said:


> Saying "actually" does not mean it happened "actually"...
> 
> The truth - Mian sahab was not even aware of this blunder from the aging commando and had to catch the next flight to DC to request US to pressure India from not crossing the LoC in Punjab sector. A thing that happened during Operation Grand Slam when India countered the Pak thrust into Akhnoor by launching its own counter-thrust in Punjab sector, crossing LoC and reaching the outskirts of Lahore.
> 
> US in turn asked him to first remove his troops from Kargil. But then as with all other matters, Mian Sahab had little or no control over the operation and India had to remove the tropps/mujaheddin the old fashioned way.




Bro don't you think they know it, in fact better.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Saying "actually" does not mean it happened "actually"...
> 
> The truth - Mian sahab was not even aware of this blunder from the aging commando and had to catch the next flight to DC to request US to pressure India from not crossing the LoC in Punjab sector. US in turn asked him to first remove his troops from Kargil. But then as with all other matter, Mian Sahab had little or no control over the operation and India had to remove the tropps/mujaheddin the old fashioned way.



When India asked the US to intervene, the Clinton administration summoned Nawaz Sharif to DC, & pressurized the Nawaz government to ask the troops to retreat. That is when India recaptured its lost territory. Pakistan still controls Peak 5353 today, which is the highest peak in the region. Also, the Indian Army has made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war.

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## solidstate

bilalhaider said:


> When India asked the US to intervene, the US summoned Nawaz Sharif to DC, & pressurized the Nawaz government to ask the troops to retreat. That is when India recaptured its lost territory. Pakistan still controls Peak 5353 today, which is the highest peak in the region. Also, the Indian Army has made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war.



so u mean that when the pak soldiers were leaving indian suddenly got on the top of the mountain captured the posts and shot the pk soldiers on their back. this is how india killed 4000 soldiers.


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## 53fd

solidstate said:


> so u mean that when the pak soldiers were leaving indian suddenly got on the top of the mountain captured the posts and shot the pk soldiers on their back. this is how india killed 4000 soldiers.



The Pakistani troops were retreating when India recaptured its lost territory. Btw, where did you get the 4000 soldiers figure?

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## Emmie

bilalhaider said:


> When India asked the US to intervene, the US summoned Nawaz Sharif to DC, & pressurized the Nawaz government to ask the troops to retreat. That is when India recaptured its lost territory. Pakistan still controls Peak 5353 today, which is the highest peak in the region. Also, the Indian Army has made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war.



Absolutely...

Pakistan *captured* this highest peak during Kargil war and we still control it as you said. Really its a strategically important post for PA.


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## mdcp

Poor implementation by our army not proper timing , not proper planning, we were suppose to be ready for full scale war, should had some support from many countries
In reality. We lost our men, our credibility our political structure
May be kargil war was supported by american to start like kuwait
It was sad to see the head of the country knew nothing


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> *When India asked the US to intervene,* the Clinton administration summoned Nawaz Sharif to DC, & pressurized the Nawaz government to ask the troops to retreat. That is when India recaptured its lost territory. Pakistan still controls Peak 5353 today, which is the highest peak in the region. Also, the Indian Army has made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war.



No it did not.

Pakistan asked China to help but Chinese refused and then Pakistan asked US in a desperate move to pre-empt any Indian action fo crossing the LoC. US laid a pre-condition of the troops being withdrawn first.

but Mian sahab had in reality no authority to order any evacuation and the Indian troops did it the old-fashioned way.

Whatever spin you put on it - Kargil was a blunder of Himalayan scale on part of Pakistan. A failed adventure-cum-ego trip of a General who failed to recapture Siachen in 1987 as a part of SSG.


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## fd24

bilalhaider said:


> The Pakistani troops were retreating when India recaptured its lost territory. Btw, where did you get the 4000 soldiers figure?



Give him another 10 minutes yaar - it will become 14,000...... I think a figment of the imagination. I think sleep deprevation makes you dellusional. I would say the actual figure was closer to youe estimation.

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## solidstate

what pakistan lost: lives, status and respect in world, democracy and leadership and gained distrust among friends like usa. the real sufferreing of pakistan started somewhere around that time and is still going on.

what india lost: innocent lives saving their land, gained respect and frnds which still remain.


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## Bhairava

Emmie said:


> Absolutely...
> 
> Pakistan *captured* this highest peak during Kargil war and we still control it as you said. Really its a strategically important post for PA.



Oh okay...


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## Emmie

Bhairava said:


> Oh okay...



I didn't mean to heart you


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## solidstate

following thread i noticed a pattern:
first we never lost it
then we lost it but we badly humiliated indian army
then we lost it but we lost when we were running back, sorry we were not prepared(then why u came??)

whats next?
when never came it was raw agents??


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> No it did not.
> 
> Pakistan asked China to help but Chinese refused and then Pakistan asked US in a desperate move to pre-empt any Indian action fo crossing the LoC. US laid a pre-condition of the troops being withdrawn first.



Don't know what they teach you in your Indian history books, Nawaz Sharif was summoned by the Clinton administration in DC:



> The administration pointed out that if Prime Minister Sharif did not order a pullback, *the US would hold up the $100 million International Monetary Fund loan that Pakistan needed*.



Page: 16

Source: http://wws.princeton.edu/research/cases/Bisaria2-09.pdf


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## Capt.Popeye

Bhairava said:


> Saying "actually" does not mean it happened "actually"...
> 
> The truth - Mian sahab was not even aware of this blunder from the aging commando and had to catch the next flight to DC to request US to pressure India from not crossing the LoC in Punjab sector. A thing that happened during Operation Grand Slam when India countered the Pak thrust into Akhnoor by launching its own counter-thrust in Punjab sector, crossing LoC and reaching the outskirts of Lahore.
> 
> US in turn asked him to first remove his troops from Kargil. But then as with all other matters, Mian Sahab had little or no control over the operation and India had to remove the tropps/mujaheddin the old fashioned way.



Mian Sahab is on record, telling ABV (before taking off to Clinton ji) that he did not know what was going on in Kargil. Whether he did or not is moot.

However here is what Air Cdre. Kaiser Tufail has to say about the wisdom of the plan itself:


> It seemed from the Corps Commanders smug appreciation of the situation that the Indians had been tightly straitjacketed in Dras-Kargil Sector and had no option but to submit to our operational design. More significantly, an alternate action like a strategic riposte by the Indians in another sector had been rendered out of question, given the nuclear environment. Whether resort to an exterior manoeuvre (diplomatic offensive) by the beleaguered Indians had crossed the planners minds, it was not discernable in the Corps Commanders elucidation.
> 
> Perhaps it was the incredulousness of the whole thing that led Air Cdre Abid Rao to famously quip, After this operation, its going to be either a Court Martial or Martial Law! as we walked out of the briefing room.
> 
> Back at the Air Headquarters, we briefed the DCAS(Ops) about what had transpired at the 10 Corps briefing. His surprise at the developments, as well as his concern about the possibility of events spiralling out of control, could not remain concealed behind his otherwise unflappable demeanour. We all were also piqued at being left out of the Armys planning, though we were given to believe that it was a limited tactical action in which the PAF would not be required  an issue that none of us agreed with.



He then says further:


> *PAF in a Bind*
> From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAFs intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.



Then his final professional military appreciation:


> *Aftermath*
> It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were General Pervez Musharraf: Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmed: Commander 10 Corps and, Maj Gen Javed Hasan: Commander Force Command Northern Areas. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trios self-serving presentation.
> 
> In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its own operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:
> Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating major strategic effects.
> Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.
> Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly capture territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.
> Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.
> Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.
> The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a laymans attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior  which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks  that the majority decide to go along with the wind.
> 
> 
> In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view  a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated and, not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom and, anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their star-spangled universe.
> 
> 
> Kargil, I suspect, like the 65 and 71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (devils advocates, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.



In the light of what was a half-baked plan that was cooked up in great secrecy (somewhat like a conspiracy) by just a small cabal, what could be the end of it??

Air Cdre. Kaiser Tufail minces no words:"Kargil-like disasters".

So how much "persuasion" did Mian Sahab require from Clinton ji to back down? From a disaster, and most importantly; to pull Gen. Musharraf and PA's _cojones_ out of the fire. Too much?

_Ref:Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force, dt.January 28, 2009. Kind courtesy- Aeronaut (Air Cdre. Kaiser Tufail)._

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Don't know what they teach you in your Indian history books, Nawaz Sharif was summoned by the Clinton administration in DC:




Huh...this was in the first page of your "link". Mian sahab was indeed summoned after he petioned for their help



> The* Clinton* administration* followed* the* conflict* with* growing* consternation.* The*
> biggest*fear*among*experts*on*the*region*was*that*India*would*launch*an*onslaught*
> of*its*own*across*the*line*of*control*that*had*served*as*the*border*in*Kashmir*since*
> 1972.* A* disaster* scenario* that*gave*American* planners*nightmares



The Americans were afraid that India would cross the LoC and launch a punitive invasion which will lead to an all out war. So when Pak turned to America for help, Mian Sahab was summoned to DC and given a nice dressing down.

_If only people read the links they post..half of the time would be saved._

No where it is given that India approached the US. So stop your opinions disguised as facts.

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## danger007

lol guys still fighting on an issue which happend more than a decade ago....can't you guys come up with current affairs.... Problems in both countries.... Any constructive ideas to resolve dirt in between two countries... Woke up guys this 2012 every one is moving ahead , India too...neither China stopped for Pakistan nor pakistan will move forward... Think about your country... Instead of teasing each other... How many threads Pakistani members posted about Super power, poverty ..... But i really don't remember when did GoI announced that... Don't you guys have poverty.... Compare who posted more ,any body can judge who want troll most... Really pitty on those fellow who always thinking about wars... We are not gonna participate in war nor our politicians ... To saticify our ego's why should military personal should sacrifice.... Think about future...


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## RazPaK

Joe Shearer said:


> Nobody tells me these things in time!!



Well it didn't work out for Musharaf at least.


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Okay Guy | Know Your Meme
> 
> Huh...this was in the first page of your "link".
> 
> The Americans were afraid that India would cross the LoC and launch a punitive invasion which will lead to an all out war. So when Pak turned to America for help, Mian Sahab was summoned to DC and given a nice dressing down.
> 
> _If only people read the links they post..half of the time would be saved._



Mentioned before in the same link, the Americans were afraid that a 'broadened' war could erupt between two nuclear nations:



> A*disaster*scenario*that*gave*American*planners*nightmares was*that*while mobilising*for*an*all&#8208;out*war,*Pakistan*might*seek*support*from*China*and*various*Arab*states,*while India*would*perhaps*turn to*Russia*or*even*its*newest*partner Israel



Anyways, it doesn't matter what the US thought or not. The Clinton administration pressurized Nawaz to asking the troops to leave, the troops retreated, & that was when the lost territory was recaptured by India.


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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Mentioned before in the same link, the Americans were afraid that a 'broadened' war could erupt between two nuclear nations



Correct...And hence it was out of American own initiative and not because India asked them to do so. One of your primary claim is thus proved false..




bilalhaider said:


> The Clinton administration pressurized Nawaz to asking the troops to leave, the troops retreated, & that was when the lost territory was recaptured by India.



But the sad thing was Mian was not in much control of the situation either. the show was being run from Pindi and the dug in mujaheddin had to be evacuated by the IA, the old fashioned way.


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## 53fd

Some interesting facts about Peak 5353 still under Pakistani control post 1999:

*Commander ordered capture of Point 5353 in Kargil war*



> NEW DELHI, JUNE 29 . *Indian soldiers had attempted to capture Point 5353, a strategically-important peak in the Dras sector, in the first days of the Kargil war. New evidence that such an assault took place blows apart contradictory claims by the former Defence Minister, George Fernandes, and top military officials that the feature does not lie on the Indian side of the Line of Control.*
> 
> An investigation by The Hindu has gained access to orders issued to Major Navneet Mehra of the 16 Grenadiers Regiment, ordering him to lead an assault on Point 5353, so named for its altitude in metres. *It is the highest feature in the Dras sector, and allows the Pakistani troops to observe National Highway 1A, as well as an alternative Dras-Kargil route that is now under construction.*
> 
> Major Mehra's men were asked to evict the Pakistani intruders on Point 5353 by 6 a.m. on May 18, 1999. The officer's plan was to set up three fire bases along the base of the peak to support the infantry assault by two groups.
> 
> Although backed by some artillery, both groups faced a difficult climb, under direct fire from both the Pakistani positions on Point 5353 and Point 5165.
> 
> However, Major Mehra's despatches note, his commanding officer, Col. Pushpinder Oberoi, gave specific orders "to go for it at any cost." *Col. Oberoi's troops failed to execute his instructions. Ill-equipped for the extreme cold, and not properly acclimatised to the altitude, the troops withdrew after suffering 13 casualties. The attack was finally called off at 3 a.m. on May 19, 1999.*
> 
> *After news broke that the Pakistani troops occupied Point 5353, the Indian Army denied that the peak had ever been held by India, or, indeed, was on its side of the LoC.* A press release issued on August 11, 2000, asserted that the "point was never under our control either before or after Operation Vijay in Kargil." Mr. Fernandes seemed to disagree. Asked about the status of Point 5353 at a subsequent press conference, he insisted that "every inch of the land is under our control."
> 
> Mr. Fernandes' subsequent statements added to the confusion. *Speaking to an audience in Mumbai, he said "Point 5353 is the point over which the LoC goes. Fact is, our troops had never occupied that."
> 
> However, on January 1, 2001, the Press Information Bureau issued a photograph of Mr. Fernandes standing on what it claimed was Point 5353. Later, the PIB was forced to sack a junior staffer for "an administrative error."*
> 
> War-time media reports, based on Army briefings, suggest that further efforts to take the peak were made from July 21, 1999, well after the fighting had officially ended. While these efforts were unsuccessful, the available evidence suggests that then-56 Brigade Commander Amar Aul responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251.
> 
> Subsequently, the local commanders hammered out a deal, where both agreed to leave points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied.
> 
> Towards October-end, for reasons still not clear, the 16 Grenadiers were ordered to take Point 5240 and the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles Point 5353. While the 16 Grenadiers' attack proceeded as planned, despite bad weather, the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles, for reasons still not clear, never made their way up to Point 5353. When the Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 5240, they promptly reoccupied Point 5353.
> 
> Interestingly, however, the 16 Grenadiers' records on the Point 5353 assault refer to Point 5353 as "a minor objective." So too, do entries in Col. Oberoi's confidential service records. This assessment was vindicated during the artillery clashes in 2001-2002, when the Pakistani observation posts on Point 5353 were unable to bring accurate fire to bear on either the highway or nearby Indian positions. The Indian troops were able to tie down the Pakistani position with accurate fire, rendering it near-impossible for its superior altitude to be used to good effect.



http://www.hindu.com/2004/06/30/stories/2004063006391100.htm


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## Capt.Popeye

bilalhaider said:


> Mentioned before in the same link, the Americans were afraid that a 'broadened' war could erupt between two nuclear nations:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, it doesn't matter what the US thought or not. The Clinton administration pressurized Nawaz to asking the troops to leave, the troops retreated, & that was when the lost territory was recaptured by India.



Gotta love the "spin" that you can put! Is it a "Doosra" or "Teesra"? 

According to you; the PA just marched out like a bunch of "obedient Schoolboys" and then the Indian Army walked in?

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## raavan

it doesnt matter who won what matters we have learnt nothing otherwise incidents like siachen or kargil will never happen


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## Bhairava

From the same link about Point 5353 :



> Interestingly, however, the *16 Grenadiers' records on the Point 5353 assault refer to Point 5353 as "a minor objective." *So too, do entries in Col. Oberoi's confidential service records. *This assessment was vindicated during the artillery clashes in 2001-2002, when the Pakistani observation posts on Point 5353 were unable to bring accurate fire to bear on either the highway or nearby Indian positions.* The Indian troops were able to tie down the Pakistani position with accurate fire, rendering it near-impossible for its superior altitude to be used to good effect.



Super duper strategic position after sacrificing about 700 soldiers, thousands of mujaheddin, international credibility and most importantly democracy...





Capt.Popeye said:


> Gotta love the "spin" that you can put! Is it a "Doosra" or "Teesra"?
> 
> According to you; the PA just marched out like a bunch of "obedient Schoolboys" and then the Indian Army walked in?



Sirji..notice that once busted on the claim that India requested america to mediate, tey have gone back to the old school "Point 5353 is ours" rhetoric ?.

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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Correct...And hence it was out of American own initiative and not because India asked them to do so. One of your primary claim is thus proved false.



Actually, it doesn't prove it to be false:



> Giving a deep insight to the intense backroom diplomacy by the US during the 1999 Kargil conflict, a top Clinton aide has revealed how *Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee stood firm on India's demand for unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani troops and his then counterpart Nawaz Sharif buckled to Washington's dictat.*
> 
> Clinton had invited Vajpayee to Washington for a face-to-face meeting with Sharif but the Indian Prime Minister had declined to undertake the visit in view of the then security situation.
> 
> *Clinton had informed Vajpayee after intensive parleys with Sharif in Washington in early July 1999 that he was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control."*



Vajpayee stood firm during Kargil conflict: Clinton aide - The Times of India

So at the end of the day, it was a diplomatic victory for India, & they only recaptured their lost territory after the Pakistani troops starting retreating.


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## notsuperstitious

Ok Ok I agree it was a comprehensive Pakistani victory, just like in all the previous wars. Now I'm going to leave my laptop and going to bed, don't sneak in and steal it. Otherwise I'll call your uncle Bill, I mean Gates 

Bilwa, I mean Bilal, do you want me to post videos of your soldiers telling us how Indians kept advancing and recapturing our posts... of course it was not fully accomplished as before that your honorable prime minister ran to uncle Bill. Now those videos are very humiliating... so don't tempt me with your extremely stupid spins. Find something else to soothe your ego.


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## untitled

This thread still up and running


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## fd24

pdf_shurtah said:


> This thread still up and running



Yes bro - we won the Kargil war 3 times and the Indians have won it 3 times - its been great fun. Where you been yaar - you missed all the fun....

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## 53fd

At the end of the day, India suffered heavier (casualties + injuries) figures than Pakistan, despite having 6 times the troops strength. And they also lost Peak 5353 to Pakistan, which is the highest peak in the area, & of great strategic importance, which they tried to recapture many times post 1999, but failed every time. This is how critical Peak 5353 is:



> *Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.*
> 
> While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.
> 
> *The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war,* has since given up the post as &#8220;untenable&#8221; given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.
> 
> *What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil.* The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.
> 
> While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, *the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.*
> 
> *Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas.* Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.
> 
> *Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire.* The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.
> 
> *Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.*
> 
> While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.
> 
> Supplies for Leh and the Siachen glacier follow two basic routes &#8212; through the Rohtang pass on the Manali-Leh highway or through the Zojila pass on the Srinagar-Leh highway 1 D. While the 13,000 feet Rohtang pass remains cut off longer in winters, the 11,500 feet Zojila pass generally opens earlier and is used to carry supplies for Army units.
> 
> What is worrisome is that even after a decade of the Kargil war, highway 1 D remains under the threat of being cut off by enemy fire.



Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express



fateh71 said:


> Bilwa, I mean Bilal, do you want me to post videos of your soldiers telling us how Indians kept advancing and recapturing our posts... of course it was not fully accomplished as before that your honorable prime minister ran to uncle Bill. Now those videos are very humiliating... so don't tempt me with your extremely stupid spins. Find something else to soothe your ego.



They recaptured them after the Pakistan troops had started retreating, when Sharif was summoned by the Clinton administration; and he buckled under pressure from the Clinton administration, asking the forces to retreat. 



> *Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee stood firm on India's demand for unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani troops and his then counterpart Nawaz Sharif buckled to Washington's dictat.*



Vajpayee stood firm during Kargil conflict: Clinton aide - The Times of India

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## LiberalAtheist

the truth of the Kargil war is right here and this is by a Pakistani general 

http://shaukatqadir.info/pdfs/Kargil.pdf

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> Actually, it doesn't prove it to be false:



Stop your spin..Show me where India requested America to mediate ?

You cant. Because it did not happen.

America and Pakistan were both afraid for their won reasons about the possibillity of India crossing the LoC. Americans then summoned Mian to DC, gave him a nice dressing down and ordered him to vacate the troops.

But he had no authority/command over them and they were only evacuated when India ran over the occupied posts and they either killed in action or ran with tails between their legs.

Regarding the victory..I had already explained by this part :

_If I occupy your house when you are out of town and you beat me out of it after returning..then its not "stalemate" for me..It's fcking loosing for me. _

Anyway I dont wish to waste time on this....even Pakistani analysts commentators have made Kargil the example of military blunders and some people never agree whatever you say.

Have a good day !


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> Stop your spin..Show me where India requested America to mediate ?



Sure. 



> *Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee stood firm on India's demand for unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani troops and his then counterpart Nawaz Sharif buckled to Washington's dictat.*



Vajpayee stood firm during Kargil conflict: Clinton aide - The Times of India

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## Bhairava

bilalhaider said:


> At the end of the day, India suffered heavier (casualties + injuries) figures than Pakistan, despite having 6 times the troops strength. And they also lost Peak 5353 to Pakistan, which is the highest peak in the area, & of great strategic importance, which they tried to recapture many times post 1999, but failed every time. This is how critical Peak 5353 is:



So critical that you cant ever fire accurate artillery fire from it...



> Interestingly, however, the 16 Grenadiers' records on the Point 5353 assault refer to Point 5353 as "a minor objective." So too, do entries in Col. Oberoi's confidential service records. This assessment was vindicated *during the artillery clashes in 2001-2002,when the Pakistani observation posts on Point 5353 were unable to bring accurate fire to bear on either the highway or nearby Indian positions.* The Indian troops were able to tie down the Pakistani position with accurate fire, rendering it near-impossible for its superior altitude to be used to good effect.



And the price for that critical peak - 700+ soldiers, thousands of mujaheddin, international credibility, democracy.....



bilalhaider said:


> Sure.



Indian demand to Pakistan..

*Alas*

Read and understand it properly.


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## 53fd

PunjabiSidhu said:


> the truth of the Kargil war is right here and this is by *a* Pakistani general
> 
> http://shaukatqadir.info/pdfs/Kargil.pdf



Or you can look at the truth about the Kargil war by the very (Indian) general who was leading the Indian troops: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ost-kargil-lieutenant-general-kishan-pal.html

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## Bhairava

Anyway I dont want to go back on my word...Just because some online fanbois say something it doesnt mean Kargil was a victory for Pakistan and most of the Pakistanis know that too and some like Sahukat Qadir, Kaiser tufail, Kassan Nissar etc have explicity admitted do

So Ciao.

But before going 

Kargil War - Pakistani Army surrenders and accepts bodies - YouTube

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## blackops

just leave the old horse "kargil" alone for gods sake



Bhairava said:


> Anyway I dont want to go back on my word...Just because some online fanbois say something it doesnt mean Kargil was a victory for Pakistan and most of the Pakistanis know that too and some like Sahukat Qadir, Kaiser tufail, Kassan Nissar etc have explicity admitted do
> 
> So Ciao.
> 
> But before going
> 
> Kargil War - Pakistani Army surrenders and accepts bodies - YouTube


very sad to see these loss of lives on both side


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## 53fd

Bhairava said:


> And the price for that critical peak - 700+ soldiers, thousands of mujaheddin, international credibility, democracy.....



Critical peak, because India tried to recapture it repeatedly post 1999, but failed to do so. And at the end of the day, India suffered heavier (casualties + injuries) figures than Pakistan, despite having 6 times the troops strength of Pakistan.



> Indian demand to Pakistan..
> 
> *Alas*
> 
> Read and understand it properly.



Yes, India pressured the US to threaten Pakistan, because they couldn't do it themselves. They even refused to attend a meeting, in an effort to gain the sympathy of the US, to act against Pakistan:



> *Clinton had invited Vajpayee to Washington for a face-to-face meeting with Sharif but the Indian Prime Minister had declined to undertake the visit in view of the then security situation.
> 
> Clinton had informed Vajpayee after intensive parleys with Sharif in Washington in early July 1999 that he was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control."*



Vajpayee stood firm during Kargil conflict: Clinton aide - The Times of India


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## notsuperstitious

You know what when Bilal posts rupeenews articles they seem more credible automatically by comparison.

Since we are doing bilalesque mindless repetitions, let me add

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.

"I inquired (from Musharraf) were you not aware that this kind of bombing could take place. Musharraf said, 'Sir, we were not aware of it,'" Sharif said adding he was told the Indian artillery bombardment was so extensive that it blew off the heads of Pakistan soldiers hiding in trenches.
Musharraf told Sharif that because the trenches did not have covers, the soldiers were directly exposed to artillery fire.

"Let me tell you by the time when the Washington deal took place, the Indians had already recaptured half of the peaks and were advancing further. I protected the Pakistan Army's honour or they would have been left with nothing," Sharif said.

The perfectly explains Vajpayee's stand that we were going to go on till we captured all the peaks. That stand was communicated to US when we refused to meet, the same stand that bilal is now desperately trying to spin LOL. Bilal stop cutting such a sorry picture.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/repor...s-during-kargil-conflict-nawaz-sharif_1039940

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## Secur

Bhairava said:


> So Ciao.
> 
> But before going



So accepting bodies is now considered surrender by the Indians ?  ... Fancy Youtube videos captions aren't worth much here ... You will be running pants down if i start to play this game here ... If i go by this logic , how many times the Indians have surrendered to Pakistan ?

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## Moorkh

Capt.Popeye said:


> I beg to disagree. Kargil was the beginning of the process. For the first time, Kargil did not see Uncle breathing down India's neck and India falling into line. Rather India did exactly the opposite, it simply upped the ante and pulled it off. Uncle (and nearly everybody else who mattered) told Pakistan to come down, they did not push for a 'cease-fire' which India would have thumbed its nose at anyway. That was the 'big difference'. That was among the diplomatic achievements (among others like 1971 etc.) that India got in its bag. What you describe is the closing of the process. Don't get taken in by the change of terminology, that is a mere technicality.
> 
> *And there will be no going back*.



i agree about the bold part.

my assertion is that india and pakistan were kept hyphenated because both the countries kept bringing the other into the scene. the animosity between the two was like a constant reminder to the diplomatic community that these two countries were to be hyphenated. India kept whining about what pakistan was doing and trying outdo it. the pakistanis kindly responded in kind. anyone trying to get anything with one country had to keep in mind the other's response. whenever a head of state came to india or pakistan, he/she had to visit the other to placate it.

it was when india scaled down and tried not to comment on everything pakistan did that the world started to dehyphenate us. the nuclear deal with the US was the first instance of this dehyphenation and it took place much much after kargil.

we didnt thumb our noses at US in kargil. they were on our side as wsa pretty much the rest of the world. 1971 and other events pre 1990 should not really be considered here as we had the soviets on our side then. US wasnt going to start a nuclear war to teach us a lesson.


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## 53fd

fateh71 said:


> You know what when Bilal posts rupeenews articles they seem more credible automatically by comparison.
> 
> Since we are doing bilalesque mindless repetitions, let me add
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.
> 
> "Let me tell you by the time when the Washington deal took place, the Indians had already recaptured half of the peaks and were advancing further. I protected the Pakistan Army's honour or they would have been left with nothing," Sharif said.



Of course Nawaz Sharif would like to show the war as a failure, to make himself look like a savior. The ground facts were different. The Army says 453 troops were killed. The best estimate from impartial sources show that *696 Pakistani soldiers were killed, & 665 injured; whereas 524 Indian soldiers were killed, & 1396 injured.*

1999 Kargil Conflict

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## Moorkh

bilalhaider said:


> *In terms of land:*
> 
> 1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.
> 
> *In terms of troops:*
> 
> 1999 war:
> 
> Indian troop strength: 30,000
> Pakistan troop strength: 5000
> 
> Indian troops losses: 527
> Pakistan troops losses: 626
> 
> India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
> Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded



i m going to act like a smartass and quote clausewitz here. 


> War is the continuation of Politik by other means



so what were the political ambitions of the PA when it started these hostilities? 
were they achieved?
what was the cost?
did the costs justify the political gains?

these are the things that really matter. it doesnt matter that the indian army outnumbered the pakistany forced 10000:1 or had help from martians. at the end of the day pakistan did not gain and the status quo was re-established, something the indians were aiming for.

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## 53fd

Moorkh said:


> i m going to act like a smartass and quote clausewitz here.
> 
> 
> so what were the political ambitions of the PA when it started these hostilities?
> were they achieved?
> what was the cost?
> did the costs justify the political gains?
> 
> these are the things that really matter. it doesnt matter that the indian army outnumbered the pakistany forced 10000:1 or had help from martians. at the end of the day pakistan did not gain and the status quo was re-established, something the indians were aiming for.



Kargil 1999 was a result of Siachen 1984. Liberating Kashmir was never the idea, it was about the strategic location of Kargil. Pakistan captured peak 5353 in Kargil in the war, the highest & most strategically important peak, & still does today. At first, the Indians were denying Peak 5353 was originally under Indian control, & that it was even on the Kargil side; but then their lies were exposed badly. India tried to recapture it many times post 1999, but failed to do so on all occasions. 

This is how critical Peak 5353 is:



> *Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.*
> 
> While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.
> 
> *The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war,* has since given up the post as &#8220;untenable&#8221; given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.
> 
> *What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil.* The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.
> 
> While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, *the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.*
> 
> *Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas.* Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.
> 
> *Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire.* The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.
> 
> *Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.*
> 
> While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.
> 
> Supplies for Leh and the Siachen glacier follow two basic routes &#8212; through the Rohtang pass on the Manali-Leh highway or through the Zojila pass on the Srinagar-Leh highway 1 D. While the 13,000 feet Rohtang pass remains cut off longer in winters, the 11,500 feet Zojila pass generally opens earlier and is used to carry supplies for Army units.
> 
> What is worrisome is that even after a decade of the Kargil war, highway 1 D remains under the threat of being cut off by enemy fire.



Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

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## Moorkh

bilalhaider said:


> Kargil 1999 was a result of Siachen 1984. Liberating Kashmir was never the idea, it was about the strategic location of Kargil. Pakistan captured peak 5353 in Kargil in the war, the highest & most strategically important peak, & still does today. At first, the Indians were denying Peak 5353 was originally under Indian control, & that it was even on the Kargil side; but then their lies were exposed badly. India tried to recapture it many times post 1999, but failed to do so on all occasions.
> 
> This is how critical Peak 5353 is:
> 
> 
> 
> Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express



but what were the political gains?

were the military objectives limited to capturing one hill? 

please answer those questions. 

i didnt make an assertion as to the aims the PA when it occupied over 100 posts. it would be convenient if we were both clear about the objectives of the two forces when the hostilities started.

india intended to maintain the status quo. it succeeded but for one hill. also pakistan has not been able to force any political concessions from india by leveraging that one point 5353. so we can assert that pakistan did not manage to change the political status quo to its favor.
there, i presented the aims of the GoI and how they were achieved

now kindly present the aims of GoP and how they were achieved.


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## Bond

lol numbers do not tell the entire story.... 
-Numbers not mention about humiliation suffered by Pakistan soldiers when their own country disowned them... 
- Statistics does not mention humiliation & loss of credibility faced by Pakistan in International arena..
- Numbers do not mention about how this incident was a precipitant to the overthrowing of democracy in Pakistan and start of dictatorship- an event since which Pakistan is going down and keep going down even now..
- Most importantly for India it was wake up & call and India started massive modernization of Military...

Anyways I am glad that these statistics give you a satisfaction & help ignore the reality... RIP to the ground warriors who lost their life unnecessarily due to foolishness of a military general !!! 



bilalhaider said:


> *In terms of land:*
> 
> 1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.
> 
> *In terms of troops:*
> 
> 1999 war:
> 
> Indian troop strength: 30,000
> Pakistan troop strength: 5000
> 
> Indian troops losses: 527
> Pakistan troops losses: 626
> 
> India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
> Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded


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## 53fd

Capt.Popeye said:


> Originally Posted by Bhairava
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bilawal ji; just to refresh you on what you have yourself quoted:
> 
> 
> SO NOW MUY AMIGO, SHOW ME WHERE INDIA REQUESTED USA TO MEDIATE?
> AND YOU CAN TRY YOUR SPIN AGAIN, AMIGO. BUT IT SURE AIN'T SPINNIN!!!



The face saving was for Nawaz Sharif, & Pakistan who had lost international support when they initiated the war. No where in the article does it say that the Indian troops had starting recapturing the peaks, it says Clinton was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control." In other words, Clinton was enforcing the Indian demand of the withdrawal of the Pakistani troops to the LOC, not because India had started recapturing the peaks. If that isn't mediation on the part of the US for India, then I don't know what is.

Pakistan had become isolated, & Sharif desperate; because they had lost international opinion & support, not because they were losing the military encounter. Sharif was additionally desperate & sought help, because he feared the reaction of the Pakistani public, when he asked the troops to withdraw when they had the upper hand against India. Which is why the troops were asked to retreat back to original positions on the LOC, & that is when India recaptured its lost territory.

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## Tija

keep on excusing Pakisthan lost the War due to International(American) pressure. 

But ultimately we won the war  & started our journey to be prosper as (United)Indian. 

I have to thank Pakisthan for that


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## notsuperstitious

As the Pakistani misadventure started misfiring, with India capturing one post after another even with heavy casualties, with Pakistan's ability to supply threatened by airstrikes, stung by international media like never before, proven to be liars once again and once again abandoned by all ''friends'', Nawaz Sharif ran to USA seeking to achieve a face saving compromise. India had nothing to gain by a compromise, and refused to even meet Sharif. India made clear that there was nothing to discuss and Pakistan would have to abandon the remaining posts in their control either voluntarily or by force. With no other choice left, pakistani PM agreed, thus saving the lives of many pakistani and indian soldiers.

This is very eloquently described by Nawaz Sharif and no amount of spinning the obvious by internet fanboys changes that fact.

What nobody knows is, why the duck the adventurous army of pakistan set upon such a disasterous plan and how they remain as always, unaccountable for their unprofessional bloodthirsty behaviour.

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.

"I inquired (from Musharraf) were you not aware that this kind of bombing could take place. Musharraf said, 'Sir, we were not aware of it,'" Sharif said adding he was told the Indian artillery bombardment was so extensive that it blew off the heads of Pakistan soldiers hiding in trenches.
Musharraf told Sharif that because the trenches did not have covers, the soldiers were directly exposed to artillery fire.

"Let me tell you by the time when the Washington deal took place, the Indians had already recaptured half of the peaks and were advancing further. I protected the Pakistan Army's honour or they would have been left with nothing," Sharif said.

The perfectly explains Vajpayee's stand that we were going to go on till we captured all the peaks. That stand was communicated to US when we refused to meet, the same stand that bilal is now desperately trying to spin LOL. Bilal stop cutting such a sorry picture.

Pak lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif - World - DNA


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## DEV444

bilalhaider said:


> *In terms of land:*
> 
> 1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.
> 
> *In terms of troops:*
> 
> 1999 war:
> 
> Indian troop strength: 30,000
> Pakistan troop strength: 5000
> 
> Indian troops losses: 527
> Pakistan troops losses: 626
> 
> India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
> Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded


 
Sir,

You say Pakistan troops losses: 626
But your then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is on record admitting 2700 dead on Pakistani side.
So you are claiming you know more than even your PM ?


----------



## manofwar

> The face saving was for Nawaz Sharif, & Pakistan *who had lost international support* when they initiated the war.


They never had international support, regarding Kashmir, just China supported Paksitan...


> No where in the article does it say that the Indian troops had starting recapturing the peaks, it says Clinton was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control." In other words, Clinton was enforcing the Indian demand of the withdrawal of the Pakistani troops to the LOC, not because India had started recapturing the peaks.


 India had recaptured 80% of the territory when USA mandated a Pakistani withdrawal, according to this source.. 
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


> Sharif was additionally desperate & sought help, because he feared the reaction of the Pakistani public, when he asked the troops to withdraw* when they had the upper hand against India.*


How the Hell did they have upper hand , having lost 80% of the occupied territory??

If you don't believe that we won the war, ask the North Light Infantry... Most of it was killed in action..


----------



## haviZsultan

The Kargil war was a direct result of the Siachen conflict which was started by India. India invaded after a japanese expedition was allowed to scale Rimo 1 an important peak. 

Pakistan was caught completely offguard and Indians launched Operation Meghdoot which resulted in the loss of a great amount of territory. 

The kargill war was a result of that and was to offset the losses suffered in the Siachen conflict which included the loss of about 1000 sq miles of territory. So in reality Siachen provoked the Kargill war. US put no pressure on the Indians to withdraw from the territory they had captured in this war.

However in the Kargil war we were doing better. Eventually however we had to withdraw because the US put pressure on us to withdraw and we stupidly obliged. We just had to keep the militias and soldiers who had taken Indian check-posts supplied.

But these are the dual standards of the US. Very much like the nuke deal with India and no nuke deal with Pakistan. Being betrayed by our allies has cost us a lot. I wonder when we will learn lessons from it.


----------



## GR!FF!N

haviZsultan said:


> The Kargil war was a direct result of the Siachen conflict which was *started by India*. India invaded after a japanese expedition was allowed to scale Rimo 1 an important peak.
> 
> *Pakistan was caught completely offguard* and Indians launched Operation Meghdoot which resulted in the loss of a great amount of territory.



well,you are wrong...

according to a now retired Pakistani army colonel. "They ordered Arctic-weather gear from a London outfitters who also supplied the Indians," says the colonel. "Once the Indians got wind of it, they ordered 300 outfits&#8212;twice as many as we had&#8212;and rushed their men up to Siachen."

Siachen conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

your post looks like "sour grapes" to me..


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## Fasih Khan

itsme said:


> well dude we r ready to accept we lost happily. u take it. we dont need a victory on pak *its below our level of victory.* beating *kiddies* is not something india should be proud of.



Get *beatenup* by ''kiddies'' is Ok, Right .. Pathetic state of mind, Indians ... Proved yet again


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## manofwar

Fasih Khan said:


> Get *beatenup* by ''kiddies'' is Ok, Right .. Pathetic state of mind, Indians ... Proved yet again


picking out random posts and answering them won't help your argument.....
I suggest you go through all the posts first


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## deckingraj

Fasih Khan said:


> Get *beatenup* by ''kiddies'' is Ok, Right .. Pathetic state of mind, Indians ... Proved yet again



Actually we were not beaten up by kiddies in Kargil but for surely beaten up by some "kiddies" of internet....Grow up!!...defeats happen and one must learn from it....False pride is a very dangerous enemy..One must keep at an arms length from it...There is plethora of literature on Kargil war..You can also read it and learn a bit more...b/w do ask your govt/army to form a committee on kargil so that you guys can learn what actually happened...for some reason it is still not in place..say's a lot about the saga, no???

Here is what your counterparts found...

Executive Summary of the Kargil Committee Report:


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## K-Xeroid

DEV444 said:


> Sir,
> 
> You say Pakistan troops losses: 626
> But your then* Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is on record admitting 2700 dead on Pakistani side.*So you are claiming you know more than even your PM ?


First he never proved his statement and later he indirectly admitted that it was a political attempt against Musharaf..Even Not in just Kargil matters , Nawaz Shareef and his party have used False statements in many other matters, thats why they are getting unpopuplar in their own strong hold areas.. Even yesterday in program Hasan Nisar corrected an estimate which was falsly provided by the Nawaz shareef's brother ...


deckingraj said:


> Actually we were not beaten up by kiddies in Kargil but for surely beaten up by some "kiddies" of internet....Grow up!!...defeats happen and one must learn from it....False pride is a very dangerous enemy..One must keep at an arms length from it...There is plethora of literature on Kargil war..You can also read it and learn a bit more...


Nice lecture.. I hope your indian fellas might understand it now.. Guys like you really need to work on Indians false pride.

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## 53fd

fateh71 said:


> As the Pakistani misadventure started misfiring, with India capturing one post after another even with heavy casualties, with Pakistan's ability to supply threatened by airstrikes, stung by international media like never before, proven to be liars once again and once again abandoned by all ''friends'', Nawaz Sharif ran to USA seeking to achieve a face saving compromise. India had nothing to gain by a compromise, and refused to even meet Sharif. India made clear that there was nothing to discuss and Pakistan would have to abandon the remaining posts in their control either voluntarily or by force. With no other choice left, pakistani PM agreed, thus saving the lives of many pakistani and indian soldiers.
> 
> This is very eloquently described by Nawaz Sharif and no amount of spinning the obvious by internet fanboys changes that fact.
> 
> What nobody knows is, why the duck the adventurous army of pakistan set upon such a disasterous plan and how they remain as always, unaccountable for their unprofessional bloodthirsty behaviour.
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.
> 
> "I inquired (from Musharraf) were you not aware that this kind of bombing could take place. Musharraf said, 'Sir, we were not aware of it,'" Sharif said adding he was told the Indian artillery bombardment was so extensive that it blew off the heads of Pakistan soldiers hiding in trenches.
> Musharraf told Sharif that because the trenches did not have covers, the soldiers were directly exposed to artillery fire.
> 
> "Let me tell you by the time when the Washington deal took place, the Indians had already recaptured half of the peaks and were advancing further. I protected the Pakistan Army's honour or they would have been left with nothing," Sharif said.
> 
> The perfectly explains Vajpayee's stand that we were going to go on till we captured all the peaks. That stand was communicated to US when we refused to meet, the same stand that bilal is now desperately trying to spin LOL. Bilal stop cutting such a sorry picture.
> 
> Pak lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif - World - DNA



Why are you spamming the same post over & over. Nawaz Sharif is not an impartial source, as he wanted to show himself as a savior, he was afraid of the Pakistani public's reaction, when Pakistani troops had the upper hand over India, & it was because of him when he asked the troops to withdraw that India recaptured its peaks. Of course Nawaz Sharif wanted some face saving, as he was afraid of the reaction of the Pakistan public when he buckled under the pressure of the US. I've even given you an Indian source quoting the Clinton aide, but somehow, you think Nawaz Sharif's word is more reliable:



> *Clinton had invited Vajpayee to Washington for a face-to-face meeting with Sharif but the Indian Prime Minister had declined to undertake the visit in view of the then security situation.
> 
> Giving a deep insight to the intense backroom diplomacy by the US during the 1999 Kargil conflict, a top Clinton aide has revealed how Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee stood firm on India's demand for unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani troops and his then counterpart Nawaz Sharif buckled to Washington's dictat.
> 
> Clinton had informed Vajpayee after intensive parleys with Sharif in Washington in early July 1999 that he was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control."*



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...onflict-Clinton-aide/articleshow/10341644.cms

In other words, Clinton pushed forward India's demand of troops withdrawal on Nawaz, & Nawaz buckled under pressure. The Clinton administration mediated for India, because India couldn't force Pakistan themselves. That is how India recaptured its peaks.

The Pakistan Army gave Pakistan's casualties count at 453, Nawaz Sharif at 2700; neutral sources such as globalsecurity.org have placed the number at 696 deaths:



> The spring and summer incursion of Pakistan-backed armed forces into territory on the Indian side of the line of control around Kargil in the state of Jammu and Kashmir and the Indian military campaign to repel the intrusion *left 524 Indian soldiers dead and 1,363 wounded*, according to December 1 statistics by Defense Minister George Fernandes. *Earlier Government figures stated that 696 Pakistani soldiers were killed.*



1999 Kargil Conflict



manofwar said:


> They never had international support, regarding Kashmir, just China supported Paksitan...
> 
> India had recaptured 80% of the territory when USA mandated a Pakistani withdrawal, according to this source..
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> How the Hell did they have upper hand , having lost 80% of the occupied territory??
> 
> If you don't believe that we won the war, ask the North Light Infantry... Most of it was killed in action..



The source is Nawaz Sharif, & Sharif also lied that 2700 troops were killed. It was a face saving tactic for him, as he was afraid what the reaction of the Pakistani public would be when he buckled under US pressure.

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## Black Widow

haviZsultan said:


> The Kargil war was a direct result of the Siachen conflict which was started by India. India invaded after a japanese expedition was allowed to scale Rimo 1 an important peak.
> 
> Pakistan was caught completely offguard and Indians launched Operation Meghdoot which resulted in the loss of a great amount of territory.
> 
> The kargill war was a result of that and was to offset the losses suffered in the Siachen conflict which included the loss of about 1000 sq miles of territory. So in reality Siachen provoked the Kargill war. US put no pressure on the Indians to withdraw from the territory they had captured in this war.
> 
> However in the Kargil war we were doing better. Eventually however we had to withdraw because the US put pressure on us to withdraw and we stupidly obliged. We just had to keep the militias and soldiers who had taken Indian check-posts supplied.
> 
> But these are the dual standards of the US. Very much like the nuke deal with India and no nuke deal with Pakistan. Being betrayed by our allies has cost us a lot. I wonder when we will learn lessons from it.


 




bunch of lie. India advanced coz pakistan was planning same. niether india nor pakistan were present at sia chin. pakistan conspired misadventure, india smell it. We send our troops before yours.


Kargil was betrayal by a so called PAK nation. In kargil we had agreement of troop withdrawal, pakistan back stabbed us. 


kargil was misadventure hatched by crazy ppl. Kargil pushed pakistan 2 decade behind.


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## deckingraj

So many factual errors in your post...I hope i am talking to someone who is willing to learn...Anyhow your next reply would give me the answer to my hope...So here we go...



haviZsultan said:


> The Kargil war was a direct result of the Siachen conflict which was started by India. India invaded after a japanese expedition was allowed to scale Rimo 1 an important peak.
> Pakistan was caught completely offguard and Indians launched Operation Meghdoot which resulted in the loss of a great amount of territory.



Factually incorrect...Anyhow just hypothetically let's assume what you said is correct..However who gave you the right to allow japanese expedition??? By allowing this expedition your army/govt was giving a clear signal i.e. Siachen belongs to Pakistan...May in know why???...and then you say India was the one who started Siachen conflict???

Anyhow let's come back to reality. The truth is we reached just a couple of days before you...Tell's us a lot about being caught off-guard, no??? PA ordered some gears and other stuff from the same company which was supplier to IA as well...It is this incompetency that caused you Siachen apart from instigating Indian response by allowing those expeditions and thereby putting a claim on entire glacier.




> The kargill war was a result of that and was to offset the losses suffered in the Siachen conflict which included the loss of about 1000 sq miles of territory. So in reality Siachen provoked the Kargill war.



Siachen happened in 84...kargil happened in 99...Are you saying it took you 15 years to take that revenge??? The practice of leaving posts in winter was a norm all these years...What were you waiting for???? Look dude - The writing is on the wall.....Your establishment has a history of making mistakes...They for some reason always underestimate Indian will and over-estimate International response...In 65 they thought India must be weak after 62 and did the misadventure...In 99 they thought nukes will keep Indian response limited...On both the occasions Indian response was overwhelming and International community backed India....In short this relation with Siachen is just an excuse that your Army gave you so that uncomortable questions can be shunned away....



> US put no pressure on the Indians to withdraw from the territory they had captured in this war.


Exactly...This should ring some bells...In 84 we hardly had any relation with US...and Pak-US relations were pretty good. Yet they did not pressure us..Why do you think??? Let me help...I am not sure what has been taught to you but Shimla accord did not clarify position of Siachen...This doesn't mean Pakistan owns the glacier...You try to assert your authority which simply proviked us to assert ours...Period!!!



> However in the Kargil war we were doing better. Eventually however we had to withdraw because the US put pressure on us to withdraw and we stupidly obliged. We just had to keep the militias and soldiers who had taken Indian check-posts supplied.


Don't balme us for your stupidity...B/W i am not sure what made you say that you were in better position...IAF was banging those supply lines like anything..There are scores of information which tells how much shortage of food/rations was there...Anyhow i have no intentions to tell you what you can easily read right in this forum...




> But these are the dual standards of the US. Very much like the nuke deal with India and no nuke deal with Pakistan. Being betrayed by our allies has cost us a lot. I wonder when we will learn lessons from it.



LOL...No matter how much AQ Khan and his so called proliferation racket exposed yet it was US who has double standards...b/w stop comparing yourself with us...When US is going to give us something they sure are going to ask for benefits in return...What do you have to offer them??? There is a term called geo-politics...Learn it or else you will keep making such childish comments...


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## K-Xeroid

Black Widow said:


> bunch of lie. India advanced coz pakistan was planning same. niether india nor pakistan were present at sia chin. pakistan conspired misadventure, india smell it. We send our troops before yours.
> 
> 
> Kargil was betrayal by a so called PAK nation. In kargil we had agreement of troop withdrawal, pakistan back stabbed us.
> 
> 
> kargil was misadventure hatched by crazy ppl. Kargil pushed pakistan 2 decade behind.


 I don't know who feed you with such Holy verses? Ofcourse , Its Brahmins.. 
Its india who started siachin Matter, In Kargil we just tried to defend our Land, and In bonus we got the most largest ,longest and most Key Position of Kargil known as 5353.. Wat you've done in Siachin you've paid it in kargil. That town of Kargil is now pretty much saved from Indian direct Shelling .. and for your information our just 3000 NLI (Non military organisation) had done that much damage to your Army.. Shot downd 2 jets and 1 chopper too. If it make you ashamed then its another thing but falsifying records ,bringing political statements in it.. One can only feel sorry for you.

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## notsuperstitious

Bilal you are lying. Of course India demanded withdrawal as we had not captured all the peaks by then. That is obvious, and if our PM had gone to US there was reson to believe that India considered it difficult to win back the posts. But nothing of the sort happened, its well documented we were winning posts and its pakistan that went to US.

Your silly spin is based on pakisani politicians being illogical traitors and pak soldiers being invincible.

Bitter truth is even then it was just NLI being used as cannon fodder.

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## The Great One

I think Kargil war in a way is a victory for Pakistan,as they still have Kashmir and their country hasn't been broken into several pieces by India.


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## K-Xeroid

fateh71 said:


> Bilal you are lying. Of course India demanded withdrawal as we had not captured all the peaks by then. That is obvious, and if our PM had gone to US there was reson to believe that India considered it difficult to win back the posts. But nothing of the sort happened, its well documented we were winning posts and its pakistan that went to US.
> 
> Your silly spin is based on pakisani politicians being illogical traitors and pak soldiers being invincible.
> 
> Bitter truth is even then it was just NLI being used as cannon fodder.


Cool! So Now you are deny the fact that the Utal Bihari Vajpayee hadn't gone first to Clintin, and didn't Beg to Clintin to Stop Pakistan, What logics you are try to applying.. its simple even your air forces failed against our NLI.. You can't deny the fact its reality.. No one is lying in our side.. its your own ministry who tries to falsify the records and the fact from you guys..


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## deckingraj

Android K-Zero said:


> Cool! So Now you are deny the fact that the Utal Bihari Vajpayee hadn't gone first to Clintin, and didn't Beg to Clintin to Stop Pakistan, What logics you are try to applying.. its simple even your air forces failed against our NLI.. You can't deny the fact its reality.. No one is lying in our side.. its your own ministry who tries to falsify the records and the fact from you guys..



Would you mind sharing something based on which you are claiming that India went to clinton and asked him to stop Pakistan......Apart from the initial losses that our Air-force suffered would you mind telling us how IAF failed??? Look if you have a strong itch for trolling then let me know...i will not do anything to spoil your party...

To say the least it is "Atal Bihari Vajpayee" )

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## Contrarian

RazPaK said:


> Dear Pakistanis,
> 
> The truth of the matter is that Kargil was an operation that was half-assed. The operation humiliated Indian forces to the point that Indians still feel insecure to this day. Pakistan's biggest mistake was that it did not invest into the operation by 100 percent.


There is a very clear line of action. 

Had Pakistani regular forces and formations started direct support to the Pakistani soldiers(disguised as terrorists) in Kargil, India would have crossed the IB and started a full fledged war. 

The precise reason why it took so long to clear the terrorists and the losses of IA was that GoI *clearly and unambiguously* ordered the IA and IAF to not cross the border - which is the FIRST thing that the Indian military(combined) wanted to do - cross the IB/LoC and start an full scale war, surround the mountain. The political order however constrained in the worst way possible - a frontal attack on mountains with an enemy dug in bunkers.

So had PA invested 100%, they would have had to face much more problems than they finally did. Pakistani military was not in any shape then or now to counter a full fledged war with India.

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## GoodBoy

malaymishra123 said:


> There is a very clear line of action.
> 
> Had Pakistani regular forces and formations started direct support to the Pakistani soldiers(disguised as terrorists) in Kargil, India would have crossed the IB and started a full fledged war.
> 
> The precise reason why it took so long to clear the terrorists and the losses of IA was that GoI *clearly and unambiguously* ordered the IA and IAF to not cross the border - which is the FIRST thing that the Indian military(combined) wanted to do - cross the IB/LoC and start an full scale war, surround the mountain. The political order however constrained in the worst way possible - a frontal attack on mountains with an enemy dug in bunkers.
> 
> So had PA invested 100%, they would have had to face much more problems than they finally did. Pakistani military was not in any shape then or now to counter a full fledged war with India.


 
LOL....... another Kargil thread where Pakistani claiming they won and give example of one useless peak they "control". Kargil War gave India a SOLID justification why India needs a big troop mass in Kashmir.

Anyway... India control the most important places ie Sri Nagar Jammu. Pakistan has nothing to do with freedom of Muslims but simply wants the land otherwise they would have called ALL Kashmiris in Pakistani Kashmir.


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## 53fd

fateh71 said:


> Bilal you are lying. Of course India demanded withdrawal as we had not captured all the peaks by then. That is obvious, and if our PM had gone to US there was reson to believe that India considered it difficult to win back the posts



I do not know why you are accusing me of lying, I have given you evidence from an Indian source, quoting the Clinton aide, & another impartial source to support my claims. Vajpayee did not visit the US to put pressure on them, so they'd take action against Pakistan. Even though Vajpayee did not go to the US, the US was in constant contact with him. The Clinton administration intervened for India, & eventually, the Nawaz government buckled under pressure, & succumbed to the US/India's demands to withdraw the troops. That's when India started recapturing its lost territory. Nawaz Sharif's memoir was a face saving tactic, both from the Pakistani public & the world (world opinion was against Pakistan), & he was afraid what the reaction of the Pakistani public would be when he buckled under US pressure.

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## OrionHunter

itsme said:


> guys lets finish it by saying that india won but pakistan scored well and killed enough indians to be proud of.


That guy in the Pakistan War History video on page 1 proudly says he ALONE killed 300 Indian soldiers with his LMG whilst the rest ran for their lives! (Massive and wild clapping from the audience! Hear! Hear!) Wow! That's Kargil history for you!

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## K-Xeroid

deckingraj said:


> Would you mind sharing something based on which you are claiming that India went to clinton and asked him to stop Pakistan......Apart from the initial losses that our Air-force suffered would you mind telling us how IAF failed??? Look if you have a strong itch for trolling then let me know...i will not do anything to spoil your party...
> 
> To say the least it is "Atal Bihari Vajpayee" )


My mistake It is Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee... 
Ofcourse, Vajpayee asked Clintin for that, You know when Clintin summoned Shareef They had done an agreement of withdrawal.. At then Wikipedia with using indian refrences claims that they managed to take 70% of Kargil , But shows only 5 to 7 position which india managed to capture.  Kargil consist 100+ positions, and these 6 or 7 positions are not the 70% of kargil for sure.. Claiming is much easier then proving.. By the way your own wikipedia show the story of shot down indian jets and a chopper.. your side claims that one of them was downd because of some technical failure..  BUt wikipedia don't shows the claims of our side, Where we interviewed those NLI members who shot down your jet fighters and after that your pilots won't encourage theirselves to came down and bombared the right position.. Its reality which is undiscribed by wiki.. which you guys mostly follows..

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## Rafi

General Pal who commanded the indian troops in the war, says that india lost the war.

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## IndiaIsrael

DRDO said:


> Dnt you know its just west, Zionist propaganda against Pakistan ????


 
East West everywhere same thing that Pakistan lost kargil war.


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## Rafi

General Pal commander of indian forces says india lost the war.

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## IndiaIsrael

itsme said:


> guys lets finish it by saying that india won but pakistan scored well and killed enough indians to be proud of.


 
At the and winner emerge as hero and Looser get zero.


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## K-Xeroid

IndiaIsrael said:


> East West everywhere same thing that Pakistan lost kargil war.


and that East might be eastern dehli and west might be western dehli.. Yea! They are totally fooled by there media.. Such a insane generation that they have grown up for india..


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## Rafi

General Pal says india lost the war, as commander of indian forces in the conflict, his words carry weight.

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## Harry Potter

Rafi said:


> General Pal says india lost the war, as commander of indian forces in the conflict, his words carry weight.


.
A PM's word carry even more weight


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## IndiaIsrael

cb4 said:


> I swear this wasn't even a war. No PA No PAF.
> 
> These guys think that Mirage 2000 dropping bomb on mujaheedens was victory? my a$$. Those poor guys didn't even have anything greater than an AK-47.
> 
> If our F-16s took off from Air Bases, these Indians would pee in their pants. Maybe i should remind how those SU-30s u-turned in 2008...


 
truely speaking pakistanis lack guts thats why they didn't deployed any fighter jet.


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## The Great One

Rafi said:


> General Pal says india lost the war, as commander of indian forces in the conflict, his words carry weight.


Yes, we lost the war. Happy now?
The truth is, 
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YA THINK
The entire world has seen the episode unveil including your best friend China and they all know the truth. So keep living in your make believe world for all we care.


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## 53fd

Harry Potter said:


> .
> A PM's word carry even more weight



A PM, who is looking to save face from both the Pakistani public & the world (for opposite reasons), does not have any credibility. I can mention a lot of things Pakistani PMs and Presidents have said about various issues that the Indians wouldn't be able to accept. That's why I have quoted the Clinton aide, & an impartial international source globalsecurity.org to support my claims.

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## The Great One

cb4 said:


> I swear this wasn't even a war. No PA No PAF.
> 
> These guys think that Mirage 2000 dropping bomb on mujaheedens was victory? my a$$. Those poor guys didn't even have anything greater than an AK-47.
> 
> If our F-16s took off from Air Bases, these Indians would pee in their pants. Maybe i should remind how those SU-30s u-turned in 2008...


What sort of nonsense is this. You people think we'd just send 2 jets out to bomb and once they are allegedly locked on by those pi$$ poor BVR-less F-16's they'd turn back and go home. 
Unbelievable.


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## IndiaIsrael

First pakistan infiltrate and attack.
when Indian army start
killing pakistani soldiers-
pakistan say we are not
involved in Kargil- they are terrorists! (who does that? lol)
Indians keep on killing the
pakistani soldiers who
infiltrated in Kashmir.
then this nawaz guy (who
had no idea where Pakistan army actually is!) goes to
amrika for help. amrika
shouts at him and orders him
to request pakistan army to
get out of Indian territory.
but nobody in pakistan army listens to this nawaz! (lol
what a hierarchy system!)
then somehow this nawaz
convinces mush to get out of
Indian territory before entire
pakistan army is killed by evil Hindus.
then Indians want to hand
over the dead bodies of
pakistan soldiers, which
pakistan obviously denies.
(because they initially declared no involvement of
pakistan army! i can't even lol
on this. its very inhuman
towards pakistani soldiers by
pakistan state.)
then Indian army bury the pakistan soldiers with respect.
now next is the most funny
part...
after about 10 years - pakistan
awards medals to pakistani
soldiers who took part in Kargil war! LOLOLOOLOLOL what the and now pakistani posters say
that they were not ready-
that's why they lost!
only god can explain why did
pakistan attack if they were
not prepared in the first place!


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

bilalhaider said:


> A PM, who is looking to save face from both the Pakistani public & the world (for opposite reasons), does not have any credibility. I can mention a lot of things Pakistani PMs and Presidents have said about various issues that the Indians wouldn't be able to accept. That's why I have quoted the Clinton aide, & *an impartial international source globalsecurity.org* to support my claims.



You might want to recheck globalsecurity.org, they reference their article with the related news reports.

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## Bratva

Did anyone know the scandal ZEE tv broke at kargil war, Indian Army were facing shortage of coffins due to massive causalities

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## RazPaK

Coffin scandal is something the bhartis keep ignoring in their bollywood like fantasies.

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## Rocky25

RazPaK said:


> Coffin scandal is something the bhartis keep ignoring in their bollywood like fantasies.



Anyway that scandal is better than Pakistan not accepting the bodies of the dead soldiers! So much they did for the nation!

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## RazPaK

Rocky25 said:


> Anyway that scandal is better than Pakistan not accepting the bodies of the dead soldiers! So much they did for the nation!
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway that scandal is better than Pakistan not accepting the bodies of the dead soldiers! So much they did for the nation!



LOL wtf? 


It was worse.


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## K-Xeroid

IndiaIsrael said:


> First pakistan infiltrate and attack.
> when Indian army start
> killing pakistani soldiers-
> pakistan say we are not
> involved in Kargil- they are terrorists! (who does that? lol)
> Indians keep on killing the
> pakistani soldiers who
> infiltrated in Kashmir.
> then this nawaz guy (who
> had no idea where Pakistan army actually is!) goes to
> amrika for help. amrika
> shouts at him and orders him
> to request pakistan army to
> get out of Indian territory.
> but nobody in pakistan army listens to this nawaz! (lol
> what a hierarchy system!)
> then somehow this nawaz
> convinces mush to get out of
> Indian territory before entire
> pakistan army is killed by evil Hindus.
> then Indians want to hand
> over the dead bodies of
> pakistan soldiers, which
> pakistan obviously denies.
> (because they initially declared no involvement of
> pakistan army! i can't even lol
> on this. its very inhuman
> towards pakistani soldiers by
> pakistan state.)
> then Indian army bury the pakistan soldiers with respect.
> now next is the most funny
> part...
> after about 10 years - pakistan
> awards medals to pakistani
> soldiers who took part in Kargil war! LOLOLOOLOLOL what the and now pakistani posters say
> that they were not ready-
> that's why they lost!
> only god can explain why did
> pakistan attack if they were
> not prepared in the first place!


Oh! I see , So thats the story which your media and Bharti sarkar are feeding you.. I don't know wat is more laughable, Your loyality to your Zion master or your attempt of put pressure in your mind.. I guess you've forgot that your master gives you money to do some practical attempt but you are wasting it on bollywood movies.. even today your Generals are crying that your army is incapable of fighting a war. 


Rocky25 said:


> Anyway that scandal is better than Pakistan not accepting the bodies of the dead soldiers! So much they did for the nation!


Well He can prove his claim but you can't so better not to troll here.


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## Rocky25

mafiya said:


> Did anyone know the scandal ZEE tv broke at kargil war, Indian Army were facing shortage of coffins due to massive causalities



Indian Soldiers gave their life and protected the nation and achieved the objective! Is it true the other way?

Pakistani Prime minister urinated in front of Clinton!



Android K-Zero said:


> Well He can prove his claim but you can't so better not to troll here.



Pakistani definition of proof is different from universal definition of proof... Trolling is your birth right, I will not deny that for you!

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## GoodBoy

Harry Potter said:


> Pak lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif - World - DNA
> Pakistani Army tried very hard to hide it's massive casualties.But in the end they failed.


 
Nawaz Sharif admitted having 4,000 casualities.

So 500 Vs 4,000 was the score and Pakistan claims it "won" ..... if this is what pakistan considers a win... we better lose in each war by even a bigger margin

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## SQ8

Since the egoistic folks have now taken over.. this thread had outlived its fruitfulness.

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