# Israel Hijacks Aid cargo, executes hostages - Pak journo, Talat Hussain taken hostage



## QADRI

Israeli forces attacked on the Aid cargo heading Gaza, killed 2 and injured 30. This is another terrorist act by israel. UN and USA remained silent on this.... so sad.

i don''t understand that anything against Muslims by anyother country is good and legal, but any thing against anyother country by Muslims is a terrorist act.....such a baised attitude.


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## Prometheus

was that cargo in isreali area without permission???


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## QADRI

Prometheus said:


> was that cargo in isreali area without permission???



well i think this Aid doesn't require any permission from israel as it is not for them.....but for your info it is 65 km away. Isreal sea area is only 35 km. Moreover the cargo ship is going towards Palestine area.


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## Prometheus

QADRI said:


> well i think this Aid doesn't require any permission from israel as it is not for them.....but for your info it is 65 km away. Isreal sea area is only 35 km. Moreover the cargo ship is going towards Palestine area.



BBC says location of interception is unknown.............Plz post link that said 65 kms!!!


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## Prometheus

*Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship*

The Israeli navy has stormed at least one of a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza strip, amid reports of casualties on board.

Some reports say two people have been killed and about 30 injured. Israel has declined to comment.

*The exact location of the interception is unclear. Israel had warned the ships not to enter its territorial waters*.


The ships are carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid to the Gaza Strip in an effort to break an Israeli blockade.

Turkish TV pictures taken on board the Turkish ship leading the flotilla show Israeli soldiers fighting to control passengers.

The footage showed a number of people, apparently injured, lying on the ground. The sound of gunshots could be heard. It is not clear whether the fighting is ongoing.

Al-Jazeera TV reported from the same ship that Israeli navy forces had fired and boarded the vessel, wounding the captain.

The Al-Jazeera broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!".

"Provocation'
The six-ship flotilla left international waters off the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and was expected to arrive in Gaza later on Monday.

*Israel has said it would stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel"*.

*An economic blockade was imposed by Israel after the Islamist movement Hamas took power in Gaza.*

Israel says it allows about 15,000 tones of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.

But the United Nations says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.

*Hamas, a militant palestinian group that controls the Gaza strip, has fired thousands of rockets into Israel over the past* decade.BBC News - Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looks like a Terrorist attack to me

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## QADRI

Prometheus said:


> BBC says location of interception is unknown.............Plz post link that said 65 kms!!!



ya how can BBC know about this, as there is no BBC reporter on that ship. I got this from Al-jazeera network, their reporter is on that ship. so go and watch al-jazeera. 

Thing is that Israel attacked on Cargo ship, carrying Aid with innocent and unarmed people, for Palestine. There are many other ways to stop ships if there is any problem despite of Killing innocent people who don't even have a single bullet with them. If you are favouring Israel, then its your choice but this is a real terrorist act.


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## TOPGUN

Unreal ... really sad on isreal's part won't even let people eat .


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## QADRI

another israeli attack on those ships, killing 16 and injuring more then 50...attack was 65 km away from coast.


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## Prometheus

QADRI said:


> ya how can BBC know about this, as there is no BBC reporter on that ship. I got this from Al-jazeera network, their reporter is on that ship. so go and watch al-jazeera.
> 
> Thing is that Israel attacked on Cargo ship, carrying Aid with innocent and unarmed people, for Palestine. There are many other ways to stop ships if there is any problem despite of Killing innocent people who don't even have a single bullet with them. If you are favouring Israel, then its your choice but this is a real terrorist act.



sorry I dont have al-jazeera channel in India.................could you plz give me link to the news


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## Aslan

Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet






Aid convoy was attacked 65km off the Gaza coast

Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

Up to 16 people were killed and more than 30 people injured when troops stormed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, the Israeli Army Radio said.

The flotilla was attacked in international waters, 65km off the Gaza coast.

Footage from the flotilla's lead vessel, the Mavi Marmara, showed armed Israeli soldiers boarding the ship and helicopters flying overhead.

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, on board the Mavi Marmara, said Israeli troops had used live ammunition during the operation.

The Israeli Army Radio said soldiers opened fire "after confronting those on board carrying sharp objects".

Free Gaza Movement, the organisers of the flotilla, however, said the troops opened fire as soon as they stormed the ships.

They also said the ships were now being towed to the Israeli town of Haifa, instead of Ashdod to avoid waiting journalists.

Earlier, the Israeli navy had contacted the captain of the Mavi Marmara, asking him to identify himself and say where the ship was headed.


*Israeli intervention
*
Shortly after, two Israeli naval vessels had flanked the flotilla on either side, but at a distance.

Organisers of the flotilla carrying 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid then diverted their ships and slowed down to avoid a confrontation during the night.

They also issued all passengers life jackets and asked them to remain below deck.

Al Jazeeras Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Jerusalem, said the Israeli action was surprising.

"All the images being shown from the activists on board those ships show clearly that they were civilians and peaceful in nature, with medical supplies on board. So it will surprise many in the international community to learn what could have possibly led to this type of confrontation," he said.
*Protests*

Condemnation has been quick to pour in after the Israeli action.

Thousands of Turkish protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate in Istanbul soon after the news of the operation broke. The protesters shouted "Damn Israel" as police blocked them.

Turkey is also reported to have summoned the Israeli ambassador to lodge a protest.

Meanwhile, Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader in Gaza, has dubbed the Israeli action as "barbaric".

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and several European legislators, are with the flotilla, aiming to reach Gaza in defiance of an Israeli embargo.

But Israel has said it will not allow the flotilla to reach the Gaza Strip and vowed to stop the six ships from reaching the coastal Palestinian territory.

The flotilla had set sail from a port in Cyprus on Sunday and aimed to reach Gaza by Monday morning.

Israel said the boats were embarking on "an act of provocation" against the Israeli military, rather than providing aid, and that it had issued warrants to prohibit their entrance to Gaza.

It asserted that the flotilla would be breaking international law by landing in Gaza, a claim the organisers rejected.

Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

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## QADRI

Prometheus said:


> sorry I dont have al-jazeera channel in India.................could you plz give me link to the news



But i guess you have an internet connection in india.


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## Aslan

I wonder what will be the fall out of this pathetic act by the pigs. The ships were Turkish and were carrying the Turkish Flag. And no way does the pigs have the right to block any ones food, and take away their right to live.


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## xdrive

Prometheus said:


> was that cargo in isreali area without permission???



Yes. The aid boats ran the Israeli Navy blockcade and then when the soldiers boarded the boat, the aid workers tried to push the soldiers over board so they could get to the shore.



QADRI said:


> well i think this Aid doesn't require any permission from israel as it is not for them.....but for your info it is 65 km away. Isreal sea area is only 35 km. Moreover the cargo ship is going towards Palestine area.



The Palestinian waters are controlled by israel. So you have to have permission to enter the waters. The turkish aid workers didn't get permission and they ran the navy blockade.

Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.

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## Aslan

xdrive said:


> Yes. The aid boats ran the Israeli blockcade and then when the soldiers boarded the boat, the aid workers tries to push the soldiers over board so they could get to the shore.



Dude what right does the Israelis have to block Gaza and deprive them of their basic humanitarian needs. Or now you people are going to dictate the right to live like humans, like you dictate the right to any other freedom.

And PS I dont see the Israeli Pigs using live amo when their brethren are killing, harassing, and destroying the Palestinians. And now a small push is an excuse to use live munition to kill the un armed people.

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## Aslan

xdrive said:


> The Palestinian waters are controlled by israel. So you have to have permission to enter the waters. The turkish aid workers didn't get permission and they ran the navy blockade.
> 
> Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.



How pathetic........................

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## QADRI

xdrive said:


> Yes. The aid boats ran the Israeli Navy blockcade and then when the soldiers boarded the boat, the aid workers tried to push the soldiers over board so they could get to the shore.
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinian waters are controlled by israel. So you have to have permission to enter the waters. The turkish aid workers didn't get permission and they ran the navy blockade.
> 
> Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.



and who gave them the permission to control palestine water and who gave them the permission to shoot at innocent people and to stop food supplies for palestine. Common on dude try to be some bit realistic and optimistic.

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## xdrive

khalidali said:


> Dude what right does the Israelis have to block Gaza and deprive them of their basic humanitarian needs. Or now you people are going to dictate the right to live like humans, like you dictate the right to any other freedom.



Why are you asking me? I am not Israeli nor am i part of the Israeli government.

We need to look at the facts.

Even though it may not be right that Israeli controls Palestinian waters, Israeli does control it and any attempt to run their blockade will be met with resistance.

These aid workers very well knew that and it's their fault.



QADRI said:


> and who gave them the permission to control palestine water and who gave them the permission to shoot at innocent people and to stop food supplies for palestine. Common on dude try to be some bit realistic and optimistic.



As i said to the last guy, why are you asking me questions that are meant for the Israeli government? I am not apart of the Israeli government, nor am i Israeli. 

I am just stating the facts.

Israel have a blockade on the waters, entering without permission will result in them arresting you. Any resistance to that arrest (trying to push them overboard for example) will result in them using force.


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## Marxist

*Protesters try to storm Israeli consulate in Istanbul*

ANKARA, Turkey &#8212; Turkish police blocked dozens of stone-throwing protesters who tried to storm the Israeli Consulate in Istanbul over reports of an Israeli attack on at least one of the &#8220;Free Gaza&#8221; ships in international waters on Monday, news channels reported.

Protesters later staged a more peaceful demonstration outside the consulate, holding up Palestinian flags and listening to readings from the Koran.
Protesters try to storm Israeli consulate in Istanbul

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

*Protesters try to storm Israeli consulate in Istanbul*

ANKARA, Turkey  Turkish police blocked dozens of stone-throwing protesters who tried to storm the Israeli Consulate in Istanbul over reports of an Israeli attack on at least one of the Free Gaza ships in international waters on Monday, news channels reported.

Protesters later staged a more peaceful demonstration outside the consulate, holding up Palestinian flags and listening to readings from the Koran.
Protesters try to storm Israeli consulate in Istanbul


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## Aslan

QADRI said:


> and who gave them the permission to control palestine water and who gave them the permission to shoot at innocent people and to stop food supplies for palestine. Common on dude try to be some bit realistic and optimistic.



Its ok bhai, they will come up with every little pathetic excuse just to cover the heinous act by the pigs. But that is not even a surprise.

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## Aslan

xdrive said:


> Why are you asking me? I am not Israeli nor am i part of the Israeli government.
> 
> We need to look at the facts.
> 
> Even though it may not be right that Israeli controls Palestinian waters, Israeli does control it and any attempt to run their blockade will be met with resistance.
> 
> These aid workers very well knew that and it's their fault.
> 
> 
> 
> As i said to the last guy, why are you asking me questions that are meant for the Israeli government? I am not apart of the Israeli government, nor am i Israeli.
> 
> I am just stating the facts.
> 
> Israel have a blockade on the waters, entering without permission will result in them arresting you. Any resistance to that arrest (trying to push them overboard for example) will result in them using force.



Dude no one is asking you any thing, it is you who is defending the acts of the pigs. Your defense dont even merit a reply, as far as I am concerned. End of our conversation.


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## xdrive

khalidali said:


> Its ok bhai, they will come up with every little pathetic excuse just to cover the heinous act by the pigs. But that is not even a surprise.



Excuse me? Your directing at that me.

I am just stating the facts.

I DID NOT say what the Israelis are doing is right. 

Once again, i am just stating the facts.


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## sparklingway

*Aaj News Director General News Talat Hussain along with his team members also present in freedom flotilla. No news about their situation as of now.*


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## TaimiKhan

*JERUSALEM: About 15 people were killed on Monday when the Israeli navy intercepted a convoy of aid ships that activists were trying to sail to the Gaza Strip, Israel's Channel 10 private television network said.*

Earlier, a spokesman for the Free Gaza Movement which organised the six-ship flotilla said at least two were killed.

Casualties could hurt Israel's international image and diplomatic relations, especially with its long-time regional Muslim ally Turkey, whose flag some of the aid ships were flying.

Israel has said it was absolutely determined to maintain its blockade of the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, a Palestinian territory of 1.5 million. It has previously halted such activist ships, although others have reached Gaza before.

Amid Israeli military censorship and a refusal of Israeli officials to comment on what appeared to be a continuing operation three hours after dawn broke over the Mediterranean, Channel 10 made clear it was not citing foreign sources.

After initially reporting that at least 10 people were dead, it later said the death toll was between 14 and 16. It said commandos who had boarded the convoy were still conducting searches and encountering what it called violent resistance.

&#8220;Two people have been killed on board the Turkish boat and 30 or more were wounded,&#8221; said Mary Hughes Thompson, a spokesewoman for the Free Gaza Movement, which was behind the convoy.

&#8220;As far as we know IDF (Israeli military) commandos descended on the boat from helicopters and took it over.&#8221;

The convoy set off in international waters off Cyprus on Sunday in defiance of an Israeli-led blockade of the Gaza Strip and warnings that it would be intercepted.

The flotilla was organised by pro-Palestinian groups and a Turkish human rights organisation. Turkey had urged Israel to allow it safe passage and said the 10,000 tonnes of aid the convoy was carrying was humanitarian.

Key ally

Turkey, long Israel's best Muslim friend and a key ally in a hostile Middle East, was highly critical of Israel's attack on Gaza 18 months ago, in which 1,400 Palestinians were killed.

Relations between the two states are now distinctly chilly and bloodshed at sea will do nothing to improve them.

CNN showed pictures of a commando apparently sliding down a rope and clashing with a man wielding a stick. Other TV images showed what appeared to be rubber boarding launches.

France 24 television aired video of a woman in a Muslim headdress holding a stretcher with a large bloodstain on it. Below her lay a man, apparently wounded, in a blanket.

Israel had said it would prevent the convoy from reaching the Gaza Strip.

Israel and Egypt tightened a blockade on Gaza after Hamas took over the territory in 2007. Israel launched a devastating military offensive in Gaza in December 2008 with the aim of halting daily rocket fire towards its cities.

Most of the 1.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza rely on aid, blaming Israel for imposing restrictions on the amount and type of goods it allows into the territory.

The United Nations and Western powers have urged Israel to ease its restrictions to prevent a humanitarian crisis. They have been urging Israel to let in concrete and steel to allow for post-war reconstruction.

Israel denies there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, saying food, medicine and medical equipment are allowed in regularly.

It says the restrictions are necessary to prevent weapons and materials that could be used to make them from reaching Hamas.


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## xdrive

khalidali said:


> Dude no one is asking you any thing, it is you who is defending the acts of the pigs. Your defense dont even merit a reply, as far as I am concerned. End of our conversation.



Actually, both of you asked me questions "Who gives the Israelis the right to stop people from having food" and there were a few more. 

Also i am NOT defending the Israelis. You have misunderstood what i am saying.

I am simply explaining the situation to everyone.

Since when is explaining the situation seen as defending someone?

Just say you robed someone and then i explained to a police officer what happened. Would that mean i'm defending you? No, it means i am just simply explaining what happened. 

*I ask that you read what people write carefully and do not get the wrong end of the stick.*


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## Aslan

xdrive said:


> Excuse me? Your directing at that me.
> 
> I am just stating the facts.
> 
> I DID NOT say what the Israelis are doing is right.
> 
> Once again, i am just stating the facts.



Instead of condemning the act you are giving stats, we are all aware of the status of the illegal occupation.


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## QADRI

xdrive said:


> Why are you asking me? I am not Israeli nor am i part of the Israeli government.
> 
> We need to look at the facts.
> 
> Even though it may not be right that Israeli controls Palestinian waters, Israeli does control it and any attempt to run their blockade will be met with resistance.
> 
> These aid workers very well knew that and it's their fault.
> 
> 
> 
> As i said to the last guy, why are you asking me questions that are meant for the Israeli government? I am not apart of the Israeli government, nor am i Israeli.
> 
> I am just stating the facts.
> 
> Israel have a blockade on the waters, entering without permission will result in them arresting you. Any resistance to that arrest (trying to push them overboard for example) will result in them using force.



ya why we are asking you....for you people humanity is for everything in this world except for Muslims. thank you very much

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## xdrive

khalidali said:


> Instead of condemning the act you are giving stats, we are all aware of the status of the illegal occupation.



Explaining the situation, is not defending the situation. They are completely different things.

The reason i explained the situation is because people were confused.

One guy asked if the aid workers were illegally in the waters and there was a few other questions so i felt the need to fully explain the situation.

*Also i do not need to condemn the situation as any form of killing is wrong and everyone knows that.*


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## QADRI

khalidali said:


> Its ok bhai, they will come up with every little pathetic excuse just to cover the heinous act by the pigs. But that is not even a surprise.



ya bro, it useless to discuss these things with them....whatever the case they always like to support any act against Muslims...so leave it.


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## xdrive

QADRI said:


> ya why we are asking you....for you people humanity is for everything in this world except for Muslims. thank you very much



Excuse me?

You were asking me questions such as "Why is israel allowed to deny people food"

I am not part of the Israeli government nor am i Israeli, so i cannot answer that question.

This is why i said for you to go ask them.


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## QADRI

xdrive said:


> Explaining the situation, is not defending the situation. They are completely different things.
> 
> The reason i explained the situation is because people were confused.
> 
> One guy asked if the aid workers were illegally in the waters and there was a few other questions so i felt the need to fully explain the situation.
> 
> *Also i do not need to condemn the situation as any form of killing is wrong and everyone knows that.*



ok tell me what is the distance in KM of israeli water boundry?
and when they attacked the ship what is its distance from Isreali sea boundary.?


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## Aslan

xdrive said:


> *I ask that you read what people write carefully and do not get the wrong end of the stick.*




I was not going to grab the stick from the wrong end, but a lame comment of yours forced me to. I ended the converstaion earlier but then you cant stop can you. This is what you had to stay along side your stating the facts that........never mind. 

*Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.*

Even though the pigs were kind enough not to sink the ship you would have stated the facts still if they had done it. Cause according to you the Israelis control the Palestinians lives.

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## xdrive

QADRI said:


> ya bro, it useless to discuss these things with them....whatever the case they always like to support any act against Muslims...so leave it.



It's obvious you are not reading anything i am saying. Please go re read my posts, here i will quote some for you.

You have misunderstood me.



xdrive said:


> Actually, both of you asked me questions "Who gives the Israelis the right to stop people from having food" and there were a few more.
> 
> Also i am NOT defending the Israelis. You have misunderstood what i am saying.
> 
> I am simply explaining the situation to everyone.
> 
> Since when is explaining the situation seen as defending someone?
> 
> Just say you robed someone and then i explained to a police officer what happened. Would that mean i'm defending you? No, it means i am just simply explaining what happened.
> 
> *I ask that you read what people write carefully and do not get the wrong end of the stick.*





xdrive said:


> Excuse me? Your directing at that me.
> 
> I am just stating the facts.
> 
> I DID NOT say what the Israelis are doing is right.
> 
> Once again, i am just stating the facts.


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## xdrive

khalidali said:


> I was not going to grab the stick from the wrong end, but a lame comment of yours forced me to. I ended the converstaion earlier but then you cant stop can you. This is what you had to stay along side your stating the facts that........never mind.
> 
> *Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.*
> 
> Even though the pigs were kind enough not to sink the ship you would have stated the facts still if they had done it. ?



You are still misunderstanding what i am saying.

I am simply explaining the situation, as people do not understand the situation. 

I never said anything like "Israeli controls the Palestinians lives" 

Please don't make things up.

*I don't understand why you are attacking me? I am simply explaining the whole situation and you are venting your anger against me when i don't support what they have done.*

If you want to be angry with someone, be angry at the Israeli government.


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## Aslan

xdrive said:


> You are still misunderstanding what i am saying.
> 
> *No I am not, you said that they control the waters so they can destroy the ship if they want to. So if you read the Jazeera news that I had posted the ships were 65 km out and in international waters. And still you advocated that even if they had sink the ship they could have as they control the Palestinian waters. *
> 
> I am simply explaining the situation, as people do not understand the situation.
> 
> I never said anything like "Israeli controls the Palestinians lives"
> 
> Please don't make things up.
> 
> *I don't understand why you are attacking me? I am simply explaining the whole situation and your are venting your anger against me when i don't support what they have done.*



I am not venting my anger at any one, I was replying to the comments you had made. For you they are mere stats, for us they look differently. Well you might be right in your assumption, for me you are not. So lets agree on that, for you you are right for me I am.


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## pak-yes

Where is the human rights world.Where are they?Why do they become blind?Why do they become quiet?Where is the so called International community?

If a bird is killed in UK there is a storm all over Europe furious debates and investigation on why was the animal killed?Where is humanity when it comes to Palestine?Few civilians killed by Sri Lanka in the mayhem of the last days of the war and the whole world just overruns Sri Lanka.But where is the world when it comes to Palestine?

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## Owais

*Turkey summons Israeli envoy after aid ship sormed*

Updated at: 1001 PST, Monday, May 31, 2010
ANKARA: The Israeli ambassador was summoned to the Turkish foreign ministry Monday after Israeli forces stormed a Turkish aid ship and activists said two people were killed, a Turkish diplomat said.

"The ambassador Gabby Levy was summoned to the foreign ministry. We will convey our reaction in the strongest terms," the diplomat, who asked not to be named, told foreign news agency.

Reports by activists that two people were killed and about 30 wounded on the Mavi Marmara ship "seem to be true," the diplomat said. 
Turkey summons Israeli envoy after aid ship sormed - GEO.tv


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## Marxist

*Death toll from Gaza aid attack hits 20 *

Gaza Freedom Flotilla came under fire early on Monday by Israeli navy forces in international waters more than 150km (90 miles) off the coast of Gaza.

The six-ship aid fleet was soon stormed by commandos descending from helicopters.

At least 20 people were killed in the takeover of the Gaza aid convoy, a Press TV correspondent reported, saying that more than 50 people were also wounded in the attack.

The news trickled through the Israeli military censorship which has sought to block the reporting of any information about the casualties.

A report on the radio said the censorship was aimed at covering up the number of casualties brought to Israeli hospitals for treatment.

Meanwhile, Israeli Trade and Industry Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer expressed regret for the deaths aboard the Gaza aid ships.

"The images are certainly not pleasant. I can only voice regret at all the fatalities," he told Israel's Army Radio.

The comments come as the first official acknowledgement by Tel Aviv that the attack had turned fatal.

Israel had initially declined to comment on the reports of casualties from the takeover of the aid ships.

Press TV - Death toll from Gaza aid attack hits 20


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## qwerty99

Israel attack aid convey on international waters and those ships were carrying Turkish flags. This means they attacked Turkey. 

As you can see here Israel doesn't recognize any laws. And on international media (cnn, bbc etc.) news are always like "Israel government said this, Israel military told us". Their trying to prove that what they have done is right. 

I hope this time Arab countries won't remain silence.

Sorry for my English by the way.

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## Aslan

qwerty99 said:


> Israel attack aid convey on international waters and those ships were carrying Turkish flags. This means they attacked Turkey.
> 
> As you can see here Israel doesn't recognize any laws. And on international media (cnn, bbc etc.) news are always like "Israel government said this, Israel military told us". Their trying to prove that what they have done is right.
> 
> I hope this time Arab countries won't remain silence.
> 
> Sorry for my English by the way.



Its ok brother, your English was more then perfect as you made your point loud and clear. So what is the reaction like there in Turkey at present. How are people and the gov taking the news. I read where they have summoned the israeli ambassador.


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## Marxist

*Turkey Issues Stark Warning To Israel Following Aid Convoy Attack*

Turkey has warned Israel of "irreparable consequences" following the deaths of at least 10 people after Israeli commandos moved to prevent a flotilla of boats from carrying aid to Gaza.

The incident has been described by Turkey as &#8216;unacceptable&#8217; while Israel says it is in a state of war with the Palestinian Hamas group and that it is within its rights to restrict all sea traffic entering or exiting the Gaza Strip.

At 4.30pm (local time) Israeli commandos landed on a Turkish-registered ship in a six-vessel convoy carrying aid for the Palestinian territory.

The flotilla began the journey from international waters off the coast of Cyprus yesterday and had been expected to reach Gaza, about 250 miles away, this afternoon.

Speaking following the attack, the Israeli military said: "We did not attack any boat, we merely fulfil the Israeli government's decision to prevent anyone from going into the Gaza strip without coordinating with Israel&#8221;.

Reports from Turkish State media suggests that at least 10 people were killed and 50 injured during the pre-dawn raid.

Turkey Issues Stark Warning To Israel Following Aid Convoy Attack


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## Marxist

*Turkey: Israel violated international law*

Turkey's foreign ministry called the reported attack by the IDF on the Gaza aid flotilla which killed at least 10 people "unacceptable," and summoned the Israeli ambassador to to discuss the incident - bringing already tense relations between Turkey and Israel to new levels.



The Turkish Foreign Ministry said that Israel violated International law and that it must now carry the consequences.



Following the events, the Turkish government has called an emergency, Channel 10 reported on Monday.



"[The interception on the convoy] is unacceptable ... Israel will have to endure the consequences of this behavior," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.



Murat Mercan, a lawmaker from Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's ruling party, said: "I was expecting an intervention. I was not expecting bloodshed, the use of arms and bullets."

"Israel is engaged in activity that will extremely hurt its image," he said. 

Turkey: Israel violated international law - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Aslan

Marxist said:


> *
> Speaking following the attack, the Israeli military said: "We did not attack any boat, we merely fulfil the Israeli government's decision to prevent anyone from going into the Gaza strip without coordinating with Israel.
> 
> *


*

Of course they didn't attack any one they never do, they are so innocent. People just dropped dead as soon as they saw Gods chosen people. *


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## Aslan

-------------------------------


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## Jigs

Israel is walking on thin ice here. Do they really want to provoke Turkey by attacking Turkish flagged ships ? 

BTW the Turkish Government has called for emergency meetings. And the Israeli Ambassador was summoned to Turkey. 

Turkey: Israel attack on gaza aid convoy violated international law - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

*Turkey: Israel attack on gaza aid convoy violated international law
Turkey summons Israeli ambassador over IDF attack on Gaza aid flotilla, which killed at least 10 left-wing activists.*

Turkey's foreign ministry on Monday denounced as *"unacceptable"* an Israeli attack on an aid convoy bound for Gaza which killed at least 10 people, summoning Israel's ambassador to discuss the incident and bringing already tense relations between the countries to new levels.

The ministry said that Israel had violated International law and must now carry the consequences.

"[The interception on the convoy] is unacceptable ... Israel will have to endure the consequences of this behavior," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

Murat Mercan, a lawmaker from Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's ruling party, said: "I was expecting an intervention. I was not expecting bloodshed, the use of arms and bullets."

"Israel is engaged in activity that will extremely hurt its image," he said.

Following the events, the Turkish government called emergency meetings, Channel 10 reported.


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## qwerty99

khalidali said:


> Its ok brother, your English was more then perfect as you made your point loud and clear. So what is the reaction like there in Turkey at present. How are people and the gov taking the news. I read where they have summoned the israeli ambassador.




As you can imagine people are really angry right now. In Ankara people are protesting in front of Israel embassy. Israel ambassador hasn't left his home yet. In the news there is a rumor about Turkish battleships is moving there. 

Also yesterday our Iskenderun harbor is attacked by terrorists and six of our soldiers died. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Here is a few pictures of Israel attack on the ship: Yard?m gemilerine ?srail böyle sald?rd? foto galerisi 1 - 31 May?s 2010 Pazartesi

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## Jigs




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## Bang Galore

QADRI said:


> * Common on dude try to be some bit realistic and optimistic.*



*Realistic & Optimistic ? You are optimistic and he is realistic . *What did the organisers think will happen when they essentially challenge Israel's blockade? If blockades were so easy to break, then there would have been no blockades at all. Forget the moral dimension (where I in fact agree with most of you), Israel was never going to allow this to succeed and the organisers would have known that. It was meant to be a media event(why else would there be a reporter on board) which turned out badly in the end.

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## Jigs

Bang Galore said:


> *Realistic & Optimistic ? You are optimistic and he is realistic . *What did the organisers think will happen when they essentially challenge Israel's blockade? If blockades were so easy to break, then there would have been no blockades at all. Forget the moral dimension (where I in fact agree with most of you), Israel was never going to allow this to succeed and the organisers would have known that. It was meant to be a media event(why else would there be a reporter on board) which turned out badly in the end.



Most people knew including the people on the convoy would be blocked. The issue isn't this it is the fact that the Israeli military not only blocked the convoy but killed people on it. This isn't going to go well with Turkey at all.


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## SEAL

Talat hussain and team of Ajj News not responding probably killed .


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## Marxist

*4 soldiers wounded boarding flotilla*

Four soldiers were wounded by knife attacks and other means boarding the "Free Gaza" ships Monday morning, according to the IDF Spokespersons' Unit.

Three of the wounded are in moderate condition, one soldier is seriously wounded. All were evacuated to the hospital and are being treated.

4 soldiers wounded boarding flotilla


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## forcetrip

xdrive said:


> Actually, both of you asked me questions "Who gives the Israelis the right to stop people from having food" and there were a few more.
> 
> Also i am NOT defending the Israelis. You have misunderstood what i am saying.
> 
> I am simply explaining the situation to everyone.
> 
> Since when is explaining the situation seen as defending someone?
> 
> Just say you robed someone and then i explained to a police officer what happened. Would that mean i'm defending you? No, it means i am just simply explaining what happened.
> 
> *I ask that you read what people write carefully and do not get the wrong end of the stick.*



I understand. But condoning to use live ammunition on unarmed civilians? Well in all honesty you should have also mentioned the back story where much worse has been done to them before. At least they didnt ignite the boats with phosphorous this time.

I really think it will be a good step for turkey to move its naval vessels in there. I am sure they will think twice before hitting something that can hit back.

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## Aslan

forcetrip said:


> I understand. But condoning to use live ammunition on unarmed civilians? Well in all honesty you should have also mentioned the back story where much worse has been done to them before. At least they didnt ignite the boats with phosphorous this time.
> 
> I really think it will be a good step for turkey to move its naval vessels in there. I am sure they will think twice before hitting something that can hit back.



Come on Force dont you know they are the Gods chosen people survivors of Holocaust, indias and wests allies. How can they even closely be wrong. Even if they do something in the international waters.  Using live Amo, how come they forgot to sink the ship. Didnt the ship owners know better, that its the Israelites, the only demo crazy in the ME. The defenders of the west.


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## Aslan

*Israel attacks aid convoy, killing at least 16 activists​*
Israeli naval commandos brutally attacked an international aid convoy intending to bring humanitarian supplies to the long-besieged Gaza city and killed more than a dozen civilians while the convoy was sailing on international waters.



Early Monday morning, as it has threatened several times as the aid flotilla set sail for Gaza, Israel intercepted the convoy of vessels carrying hundreds of activists from around the world and some 10,000 tones of humanitarian aid, possibly causing an irreversible damage to Turkish-Israeli relations, foreign ministry said in a statement released a few hours after the attack.

International community has earlier warned Israel not to engage in an offensive on civilian vessels full of peaceful activists whose aim is to break the three-year-old economic blockade on Gaza which has severely plagued its people.

Hundreds of thousands of protesters gathered in front of the Israeli consulate in &#304;stanbul to show reaction against the violent intervention. Thousands of Gazans who were expecting a helping hand from committed civilians but later learned of the attack also gathered at the port of Gaza, carrying Palestinian flags and banners read &#8220;End to Israeli persecution.&#8221;

&#8220;We were not expecting such an operation in international waters,&#8221; &#214;mer Faruk Korkmaz, an official of the Humanitarian Aid Association (&#304;HH) that led the aid shipment in Turkey said. &#8220;Israel has been caught red-handed and the international community will not forgive it.&#8221;

Korkmaz said the ship was being escorted to Haifa.







&#8220;I was expecting an intervention,&#8221; said Murat Mercan, Turkish parliamentary Foreign Affairs Commission Chairman. &#8220;I was not expecting bloodshed, the use of arms and bullets.&#8221;

&#8220;Israel is engaged in activity that will extremely hurt its image,&#8221; he said.

Turkey summoned the Israeli ambassador to the foreign ministry to discuss the incident.

&#8220;Israel has clearly indicated once again that it snubs human life and peaceful initiatives by targeting innocent civilians. We severely condemn Israel&#8217;s inhumane practices. The sorrowful incident that occurred in international waters and constitute a grave violation of international law may lead to irreversible consequences for our relations,&#8221; read the foreign ministry&#8217;s statement, adding that Israel will have to stand the consequences of its intervention. 






Turkish ministers and high-level officials convened at the Prime Ministry in Ankara following the Israeli offensive. Deputy Prime Minister B&#252;lent Ar&#305;nc, Interior Minister Be&#351;ir Atalay, Prime Ministry Undersecretary Efkan Ala, General Staff Operations Commander Gen. Mehmet Er&#246;z, Naval Forces Vice Commander Adm. Nusret G&#252;ner, and bureaucrats are participating in the meeting.



http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/n...aid-convoy-killing-at-least-16-activists.html


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## Aslan

Aaj News adds: Pakistans private television network Aaj News Executive Director News Talat Hussain along with his team members also present in freedom flotilla, whose where about could not be known.

AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz


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## prodevelopment

Anyone following the story for the past 2 days would realize that this was nothing but a media gimmick. Why else did they have an 'Al-Jazeera' reporter on board, go via the sea route and challenge Israelis head on? If they wanted to 'help' the Palestinians, why not go thru Egypt?

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## Icarus

Way to go Israel, they just screwed up their relation with the only pro-Israel muslim country in the world, this will have serious consequences, I'm hearing that turkey is mobilizing it's navy ???? Turkish brothers care to confirm ?

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## pkd

Let's see with what logic Israel defenders comes up with to justify these crimes against humanity.

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Anyone following the story for the past 2 days would realize that this was nothing but a media gimmick. Why else did they have an 'Al-Jazeera' reporter on board, go via the sea route and challenge Israelis head on? If they wanted to 'help' the Palestinians, why not go thru Egypt?




And dont you know that the Egyptians dont let any one through unless and until they are authorized by the Israelis. The only possible route that was available was through sea, and what gives the jews the right to stop the food from going to Gaza. Just because u are an indian its not ur duty to defend israel try being a human for a while. 
And if you had read the news with open eyes there were members of parliaments from European countries, and also volunteers. And the only reason to take media with them was that first of all to create some pressure on the israelies, and secondly to document every thing. Other wise we would have had a statement that Hammas was on the ship and using people as human shields.

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## Fireurimagination

This was bound to happen, what did they expect? That Israelis will welcome them with bouquets. People should quit being smart pants and approach things practically


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## Icarus

prodevelopment said:


> Anyone following the story for the past 2 days would realize that this was nothing but a media gimmick. Why else did they have an 'Al-Jazeera' reporter on board, go via the sea route and challenge Israelis head on? If they wanted to 'help' the Palestinians, why not go thru Egypt?



They had lots of reporters on board, in case you didn't know, it's a reporter's job to "report" and he/she can only do that if they are there.
They are going to the Gaza strip, they chose not to go through Israel because they would interfere with the hand over of Humanitarian aid.


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## Marxist

prodevelopment said:


> Anyone following the story for the past 2 days would realize that this was nothing but a media gimmick. Why else did they have an 'Al-Jazeera' reporter on board, go via the sea route and challenge Israelis head on? If they wanted to 'help' the Palestinians, why not go thru Egypt?



media want to sensationalize the issue,there are reports that they tried to delay the confrontation with Israeli forces till morning,but even with such incidents *Killing of Unarmed persons on International waters is a condemnable act,and it cannot be justified .*

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## rohailmalhi

Israel - they are the real terrorists ..........
Rip to the dead .

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## Aslan

Fireurimagination said:


> This was bound to happen, what did they expect? That Israelis will welcome them with bouquets. People should quit being smart pants and approach things practically



How shameless dude, well then again keep up the good work I am sure that the @$$ kissing pays of well for you guys.

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## Icarus

Fireurimagination said:


> This was bound to happen, what did they expect? That Israelis will welcome them with bouquets. People should quit being smart pants and approach things practically



It was imminent that the convoy would be intercepted but with live rounds ?????
That was unexpected, but if you look up Israel's human rights record, it hardly seems surprising....................


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## Spring Onion

Terrorist State of Isreal has once again proved its credential of being a Terrorist state in the world.

Attacking a aid convy composed of Journalists, Diplomates and social workers from almost 25 countries carrying aid for the helpless people of Palestine, is shamless inhuman and terrorist attack.


The civilized world should condemn it in strongest way and the Muslim countries should make an alliance against Terrorist State of Isreal and its Terrorist supporter countries.

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> And dont you know that the Egyptians dont let any one through unless and until they are authorized by the Israelis. The only possible route that was available was through sea, and what gives the jews the right to stop the food from going to Gaza. Just because u are an indian its not ur duty to defend israel try being a human for a while.




If Egypt does not let anyone through without Israeli authorization, why are there absolutely NO protests against Egypt? 

And just because you are a muslim, it's not your duty to defend anyone challenging Israel. Nowhere in my post have I defended Israel. Bang galore is right, this is a media event gone wrong.

What is the justification of having reporters from Al Jazeera and Aaj TV, while no reporters from Western news organizations? The organizers of this 'event' took a calculated risk, and it backfired. The blame falls squarely on them.


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## qwerty99

Kakgeta said:


> Way to go Israel, they just screwed up their relation with the only pro-Israel muslim country in the world, this will have serious consequences, I'm hearing that turkey is mobilizing it's navy ???? Turkish brothers care to confirm ?



Well it is just a rumor right now. There is no official announcement.

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## forcetrip

Marxist said:


> they want to sensationalize the issue,there are reports that they tried to delay the confrontation with Israeli forces till morning,but even with such incidents Killing of Unarmed persons on International waters is a condemnable act.



As someone pointed out, the main aim was to sensationalize the issue and confrontation was expected. They cannot go in and murder people trying to raise an issue.


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## Spring Onion

20 unarmed peace activists in the aid convy have been killed and remaining taken hostage by terrorist Isrealis. 


The Team of Pakistan news channel AAJ is also part of this aid convy including its Excutive Director Talat Hussain of AAJ. There is no news about them so far.

Please pray for their's and other people onboard.


We Salute AAJ TV and Talat Hussain

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## Comet

Oh God! This is big news. Where is the ship? is it still in the water or is it in Israel's custody?


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## Marxist

forcetrip said:


> As someone pointed out, the main aim was to sensationalize the issue and confrontation was expected. They cannot go in and murder people trying to raise an issue.



i am not justifying the act of Israel on that post...


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## Spring Onion

prodevelopment said:


> If Egypt does not let anyone through without Israeli authorization, why are there absolutely NO protests against Egypt?
> 
> And just because you are a muslim, it's not your duty to defend anyone challenging Israel. Nowhere in my post have I defended Israel. Bang galore is right, this is a media event gone wrong.
> 
> What is the justification of having reporters from Al Jazeera and Aaj TV, while no reporters from Western news organizations? The organizers of this 'event' took a calculated risk, and it backfired. The blame falls squarely on them.




Just two words for defending the terrorist Isrealis.

LAY OFF.

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## prodevelopment

Oh, and did you guys know that Israel offered the flotilla to dock at Israel's Ashdod port, where supplies would be unloaded and transferred to Gaza? But the media hungry organizers wanted publicity. Shameless.


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> If Egypt does not let anyone through without Israeli authorization, why are there absolutely NO protests against Egypt?
> 
> And just because you are a muslim, it's not your duty to defend anyone challenging Israel. Nowhere in my post have I defended Israel. Bang galore is right, this is a media event gone wrong.
> 
> What is the justification of having reporters from Al Jazeera and Aaj TV, while no reporters from Western news organizations? The organizers of this 'event' took a calculated risk, and it backfired. The blame falls squarely on them.



Are you so stupid or so slow, its not about being a Muslim or not. As I said earlier try being a human for a while. There were European members of Parliament on the ship. Have you even gone through the posts. And what make the presence of media wrong. Even BBC had reported that the UN declared that the food that goes though to GAZA is not sufficient. What else do you want. You wanted BBC, and CNN on the ship. The news organizations who are still struggling to get the news straight and are still pondering on how best to submit the news to the local public so that there wont be a hue or cry over the illegal actions of the jews. You might not have defended the actions of the Jews but you very well are not condemning them, and in fact just by painting my criticism in the colors of religion you have debouched your own claim.

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## Fireurimagination

khalidali said:


> How shameless dude, well then again keep up the good work I am sure that the @$$ kissing pays of well for you guys.



LOL tomorrow if Pakistanis try and enter with aid into Indian Kashmir or the vice versa please care to explain what will happen


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Oh, and did you guys know that Israel offered the flotilla to dock at Israel's Ashdod port, where supplies would be unloaded and transferred to Gaza? But the media hungry organizers wanted publicity. Shameless.



And why should the supplies be given to israel, and where is that news clip that you are taking about. Besharam honay ki bhi had hoti hai.


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## Aslan

Fireurimagination said:


> LOL tomorrow if Pakistanis try and enter with aid into Indian Kashmir or the vice versa please care to explain what will happen



Dude lay off me before I say something that you or your kind will not like. It ok if you are a pathetic loser lets keep it to that, and dont defame your whole country just by showing you own character.

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> And why should the supplies be given to israel, and where is that news clip that you are taking about. Besharam honay ki bhi had hoti hai.



 Because Israel controls the entry points to Palestine!!!

And here's the story:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1


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## Icarus

prodevelopment said:


> Oh, and did you guys know that Israel offered the flotilla to dock at Israel's Ashdod port, where supplies would be unloaded and transferred to Gaza? But the media hungry organizers wanted publicity. Shameless.



If they chose to dock at Ashdod, Israel customs would have been able to exercise their will on the flotilla's contents, that means they could stop food stuff and medicines from being sent to Gaza, considering it's Humanitarian aid, what do you think remains in the cargo ????? Dust is my guess.............


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Because Israel controls the entry points to Palestine!!!



they dont control it but they are illegally occupying them, there is a difference. And when something is illegal then there is justification. And furhter more why cant you get a point across your thick skull that they were in international waters. And even if they were in or close to GAZA they were fired on with live AMO. So is that justified.


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## Icarus

Fireurimagination said:


> LOL tomorrow if Pakistanis try and enter with aid into Indian Kashmir or the vice versa please care to explain what will happen



1) India fires at convoy.
2) Pakistan retaliates.
3) Declaration of War.
4) Enormous casualties on both sides.
5) Nuclear Winter.

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## Fireurimagination

khalidali said:


> Dude lay off me before I say something that you or your kind will not like. It ok if you are a pathetic loser lets keep it to that, and dont defame your whole country just by showing you own character.



Well I didn't get my answer. I understand you are all emotional and charged up but it's nothing more than a media gimmick gone wrong, if these so called people wanted to help Palestine's there are one and hundreds of ways of doing that but what to choose to do was plain stupid.

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Because Israel controls the entry points to Palestine!!!
> 
> And here's the story:
> 
> 10 dead as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid convoy - CNN.com




And just to give you an idea why giving the supplies to the israelies was not a good idea this is what BBC had said. 

*

Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.

But the United Nations says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.
*

Now you think that they would have let this aid through as per their own wish or as per the need of the Palestinians.

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## Fireurimagination

Kakgeta said:


> 1) India fires at convoy.
> 2) Pakistan retaliates.
> 3) Declaration of War.
> 4) Enormous casualties on both sides.
> 5) Nuclear Winter.



Yup and that would be stupid, isn't it?

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> Are you so stupid or so slow, its not about being a Muslim or not. As I said earlier try being a human for a while.



Exactly. This has got nothing about me being an Indian. This is about being logical.



khalidali said:


> And what make the presence of media wrong. Even BBC had reported that the UN declared that the food that goes though to GAZA is not sufficient. What else do you want. You wanted BBC, and CNN on the ship. The news organizations who are still struggling to get the news straight and are still pondering on how best to submit the news to the local public so that there wont be a hue or cry over the illegal actions of the jews. You might not have defended the actions of the Jews but you very well are not condemning them, and in fact just by painting my criticism in the colors of religion you have debouched your own claim.



The presence of media is not wrong. The presence of biased media is wrong. And deliberately putting that media into line of fire, calling them martyrs is even more wrong.

CNN and BBC are scrambling for their story because they were not let on the boats. Can't you understand such a simple thing?

If food supply into GAZA is not sufficient, why nor pressurize EGYPT? Don't sidestep my question. Atleast Israel allows some food through. What is the excuse of Egypt?

I am not condemning the Israeli attack because that is what they are supposed to do. Defend their territorial waters. Did some people die? Yes. But whose fault is that? The people who shot them or the people who put them in the line of fire?

Oh, and I am not painting this in religion, you brought in my nationality and I ridiculed your claim.


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## Icarus

Fireurimagination said:


> Well I didn't get my answer. I understand you are all emotional and charged up but it's nothing more than a media gimmick gone wrong, if these so called people wanted to help Palestine's there are one and hundreds of ways of doing that but what to choose to do was plain stupid.



Care to quote some of those ways ?


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## Aslan

Fireurimagination said:


> Well I didn't get my answer. I understand you are all emotional and charged up but it's nothing more than a media gimmick gone wrong, if these so called people wanted to help Palestine's there are one and hundreds of ways of doing that but what to choose to do was plain stupid.



Tell me Mr sympathizer of israeli brutality, I am all ears please enlighten me with the hundred of different ways that they could have helped the Palestinians with other then this. Please give me one only one and make sure that its something new and unique.


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## xuxu1457

Sad for that,Isreali did wrong at this time~~


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## Icarus

Fireurimagination said:


> Yup and that would be stupid, isn't it?



It would, but Kashmir hasn't been blockaded from 2007, the people in Gaza are short on food and medicines, they need help..............in such a situation, this action seems logical enough and it's got global support, even the Greek and Turkish are together on this one, there are also some U.S. Congressmen onboard, or were............


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## qwerty99

Fireurimagination said:


> Well I didn't get my answer. I understand you are all emotional and charged up but it's nothing more than a media gimmick gone wrong, if these so called people wanted to help Palestine's there are one and hundreds of ways of doing that but what to choose to do was plain stupid.



And Israel has hundreds of ways of blocking these aids. Can't you see what is happening there? There is no excuse of opening fire against unarmed civilians, bombing hospitals, killing innocent children.

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> they dont control it but they are illegally occupying them, there is a difference. And when something is illegal then there is justification.



So you admit that the intention of this mission was not to supply humanitarian aid, but to highlight this dispute? Thank You.

If they wanted to highlight this dispute, then there were many better ways to do that than putting innocent lives into the line of fire. Tell me now, who are the culprits?


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## prodevelopment

Kakgeta said:


> It would, but Kashmir hasn't been blockaded from 2007, the people in Gaza are short on food and medicines, they need help..............in such a situation, this action seems logical enough and it's got global support, even the Greek and Turkish are together on this one, there are also some U.S. Congressmen onboard, or were............



Just tell me this. If their purpose was to provide aid, why not go through Egypt? Why not pressurize Egypt to open their borders? Why challenge the Israelis head on?


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## Aslan

@ prodevelopment;

Dude I wanted to write a response to you lame argument, and I have alot of things to say but the simple fact is that you by your actions are showing you upbringing and you way of thinking. After all what can be expected from a banya. Go to hell for what I care. Defend the terrorism all you want to by painting in it what ever colors. It dont change the facts on the ground.


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> So you admit that the intention of this mission was not to supply humanitarian aid, but to highlight this dispute? Thank You.
> 
> *And when did I say that, stop putting words in my mouth. And even for an instance if they were highlighting the dispute why is you @$$ on fire.*
> 
> If they wanted to highlight this dispute, then there were many better ways to do that than putting innocent lives into the line of fire. Tell me now, who are the culprits?



Please enlighten us.


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> @ prodevelopment;
> 
> Dude I wanted to write a response to you lame argument, and I have alot of things to say but the simple fact is that you by your actions are showing you upbringing and you way of thinking. After all what can be expected from a banya. Go to hell for what I care. Defend the terrorism all you want to by painting in it what ever colors. It dont change the facts on the ground.



 I'm a multani 

Just shows that you are bound to get washed up in emotions rather than be logical.


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## Jigs

CNN just did a report on this on T.V. The people on the boats have been taken to Israel where they will be questioned. Wounded have been taken to hospitals. As far as Turkey getting involved from a military point it is too early. Some Israeli spokesperson also gave a speech hinting the people on the ship had Hamas connections. He also asked the world to understand what happened as he explained it. 


I am sure Basbug (Chief of the Turkish General Staff) is having a meeting as we speak. A response from turkey should come in later today or tomorrow as to what course of action will be taken.


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## Icarus

prodevelopment said:


> Just tell me this. If their purpose was to provide aid, why not go through Egypt? Why not pressurize Egypt to open their borders? Why challenge the Israelis head on?









Check it out, if they took the aid through Egypt they would have to get clearance from Israeli customs before entering Gaza but as I said before, Israel may choose to hold back any amount of food and medicine they choose not because it's lawful but because they can, the flotilla was the only possible way to get the aid to the Gazans.


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> I'm a multani
> 
> Just shows that you are bound to get washed up in emotions rather than be logical.




Funny aint it, well I called you a banya from a completely different prospective. You wont understand. Lets leave it. It your duty to defend the jews as you see fit. So be it. I dont want to waste my time with you. So dont bother with me.


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## P.kid

prodevelopment said:


> Just tell me this. If their purpose was to provide aid, why not go through Egypt? Why not pressurize Egypt to open their borders? Why challenge the Israelis head on?



What would you do eh? Take the easy way or the hard way. *Easy way* i'd fink. Hard way from the way i see it it would take time to put egypt under pressure to open there borders. Where as going through the *occupied sea* would be a less hassel route because the people on the boat were un-armed so they should'nt have been fired at and there aim was to deploy the needs for the people no more. hope it helps.


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## Aslan

Jigs said:


> CNN just did a report on this on T.V. The people on the boats have been taken to Israel where they will be questioned. Wounded have been taken to hospitals. As far as Turkey getting involved from a military point it is too early. Some Israeli spokesperson also gave a speech hinting the people on the ship had Hamas connections. He also asked the world to understand what happened as he explained it.
> 
> 
> I am sure Basbug (Chief of the Turkish General Staff) is having a meeting as we speak. A response from turkey should come in later today or tomorrow as to what course of action will be taken.




Now imagine if there were no reporters on the ship they would have made it look like as they were fired on and every thing else. Oh what a great service they are doing to humanity.


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## Fireurimagination

khalidali said:


> Tell me Mr sympathizer of israeli brutality, I am all ears please enlighten me with the hundred of different ways that they could have helped the Palestinians with other then this. Please give me one only one and make sure that its something new and unique.



Israelis foreign ministry officially asked them to come to Israel and utilize the overland crossings but they refused and choose to go through the Israeli Navy without seeking any permission. They contemplated that with the media and international attention Israel won't take any action but Israel has a no nonsense approach when it comes to it's security. The idea was to hog the limelight and everything went horribly wrong


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## pkd

By giving weapons to india Isreal achieves tw0 things

1. Buisness for defence industry
2. Indian freelance slaves willing to defend their actions to any length.

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## Aslan

Fireurimagination said:


> Israelis foreign ministry officially asked them to come to Israel and utilize the overland crossings but they refused and choose to go through the Israeli Navy without seeking any permission. They contemplated that with the media and international attention Israel won't take any action but Israel has a no nonsense approach when it comes to it's security. The idea was to hog the limelight and everything went horribly wrong



Dude I hope that you are done here. I am sure that you and your masters will be satisfied with the services that you are providing the., Also pleas make sure to to quote your argument with a link so it will help.


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> Please enlighten us.



My *** is on fire because they put innocent lives in the line of fire for their propaganda.

@kakgeta: Egypt agreed to deliver everything via Israeli customs. Why? That was not the situation before (I think 2005, correct me if I'm wrong).


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## Aslan

--------------------------


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## Bang Galore

khalidali said:


> @ prodevelopment;
> 
> Dude I wanted to write a response to you lame argument, and I have alot of things to say *but the simple fact is that you by your actions are showing you upbringing and you way of thinking.*
> 
> *After all what can be expected from a banya.*





And this is the best you can do? What's with the Baniya fixation? As a supposed insult this is particularly lame. Do you even know what it means? BTW, you are not the sole repository of insulting phrases. Don't drag the thread & this forum down to that level.


----------



## Marxist

*Israel on alert after Gaza aid attack * 

Israeli security forces go on high alert to confront possible protests from Palestinians outraged by the Israeli navy's deadly raid on a Gaza aid convoy.

The decision came on Monday to handle any "possible disturbances" among the Israeli Arabs, AFP quoted an unnamed police spokesman.

Meanwhile, Palestine's democratically elected Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has called for massive demonstrating in protest at the Israeli "crime" and an act of piracy.

At least 20 people were killed in the attack and more than 50 others were wounded on Monday morning when Gaza Freedom Flotilla came under an Israeli naval attack.

The interception reportedly took place in international waters more than 150km (90 miles) off the coast of Gaza.

The move has drawn sharp criticism from across the globe with Israeli ambassadors summoned in a number of countries, including Greece, Spain, Sweden and Turkey.

In Turkey, hundreds of angry protesters took to streets in central Istanbul and gathered in front of Israel's consulate, shouting slogans against the Tel Aviv regime.

The six-ship convoy, organized by the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), was carrying 10,000 tons of supplies and was accompanied by 700 Palestinian and international activists. 

Press TV - Israel on alert after Gaza aid attack


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## prodevelopment

pkd said:


> By giving weapons to india Isreal achieves tw0 things
> 
> 1. Buisness for defence industry
> 2. Indian freelance slaves willing to defend their actions to any length.



oooooooooooooo, a personal attack!! I'm so offended!! 

Shows how old you are kid. You cannot argue logically, and have to resort to personal attacks.


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## Icarus

prodevelopment said:


> @kakgeta: Egypt agreed to deliver everything via Israeli customs. Why? That was not the situation before (I think 2005, correct me if I'm wrong).



Could you please expand on your question ?


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## Aslan

Bang Galore said:


> And this is the best you can do? What's with the Baniya fixation? As a supposed insult this is particularly lame. Do you even know what it means? BTW, you are not the sole repository of insulting phrases. Don't drag the thread & this forum down to that level.



Funny coming from you who came here and starting the troll by defending the actions of the culprit. Now next time quote me when I say something to you. I hope that you would understand. And also if you were wise enough to what was going on you would have seen and understood it. But rather you are also in line with the people who will defend the killers just for the sake of it.


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## pkd

prodevelopment said:


> oooooooooooooo, a personal attack!! I'm so offended!!
> 
> Shows how old you are kid. You cannot argue logically, and have to resort to personal attacks.



Ofcourse no body can defeat the justification you have for killing of civilians

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## Jigs

Marxist said:


> *Israel on alert after Gaza aid attack *
> 
> Israeli security forces go on high alert to confront possible protests from Palestinians outraged by the Israeli navy's deadly raid on a Gaza aid convoy.
> 
> The decision came on Monday to handle any "possible disturbances" among the Israeli Arabs, AFP quoted an unnamed police spokesman.
> 
> Meanwhile, Palestine's democratically elected Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has called for massive demonstrating in protest at the Israeli "crime" and an act of piracy.
> 
> At least 20 people were killed in the attack and more than 50 others were wounded on Monday morning when Gaza Freedom Flotilla came under an Israeli naval attack.
> 
> The interception reportedly took place in international waters more than 150km (90 miles) off the coast of Gaza.
> 
> The move has drawn sharp criticism from across the globe with Israeli ambassadors summoned in a number of countries, including Greece, Spain, Sweden and Turkey.
> 
> In Turkey, hundreds of angry protesters took to streets in central Istanbul and gathered in front of Israel's consulate, shouting slogans against the Tel Aviv regime.
> 
> The six-ship convoy, organized by the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), was carrying 10,000 tons of supplies and was accompanied by 700 Palestinian and international activists.
> 
> Press TV - Israel on alert after Gaza aid attack



Palestinians protesters is the least of your worries even Greece is pissed since they had a ship in the convoy. WTF was Israel thinking ? American is not going to save your *** on this one.


----------



## prodevelopment

Kakgeta said:


> Could you please expand on your question ?



Please go through the history of the Philadelphi Route. 

Time for lunch. 

I'm off this thread. B'bye.


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## Aslan

Jigs said:


> Palestinians protesters is the least of your worries even Greece is pissed since they had a ship in the convoy. WTF was Israel thinking ? American is not going to save your *** on this one.



I was watching a documentary which BB had posted in a different thread where it says that how the Israeli lobby works. And one of the guys at the end of the interview says that one day the time will come when the Americans will say enough, we cant just take care of you any more. And its not really the Americans, but the time has surely come where some other country will now start saying that enough.


----------



## Fireurimagination

khalidali said:


> Dude I hope that you are done here. I am sure that you and your masters will be satisfied with the services that you are providing the., Also pleas make sure to to quote your argument with a link so it will help.



It's always good to get a POV from the other side as well

MFA Spokesman on Gaza flotilla 24-May-2010


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## Marxist

*An Interview with USAK Director Sedat Laciner: "Israeli Attack is a Piracy and Banditry"*

After a violence attack of Israeli forces against the ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, Sedat Laciner (Director of USAK) made striking statements on the incident.

By highlighting that the ships were attacked at high seas, Assc. Prof. Sedat Laciner indicated that the Israeli did not attack within Israeli territories or seas. Laciner said, "A country's stopping civil ships and opening fire to unarmed people, massacring them at high seas is a breach of international law. It is a piracy and banditry."

Sedat Laciner stated that this act of Israel is much violent even than the Somalian piracy incidents. Laciner said, "Somalian pirates are doing this in order to get ransom, and they do not harm people who they take hostage. Yet Israel killed people from whom it did not have anything to gain."

According to Sedat Laciner, Israel could have stopped the aid ships without resorting to violent means. "There is an evil purpose here. If there was not, then the Israeli Air Forces and Naval Forces would not have been used to kill unarmed people within these civil ships. It is obvious that Israel wanted to make a bloody and violent operation."

By reminding the incident of Rachel Corrie who was an American journalist intended to make a peaceful protest was smashed by bulldozers of IDF (Israeli Defense Forces), Laciner said "There is nothing to be surprised. As they killed Rachel Corrie, Israel repeats its typical behavior towards another peaceful act. However, this time it was more violent and brutal."

Sedat Laciner said, "Most of the people killed are Turks and it is not surprising. Israel has two aims. One is to give a lesson to all who intended and will intend to stop the blockade. The second is to take revenge from Turkey and give a lesson. Because Israel thinks that if they allow these ships to enter then more ships will come on incoming days."

An Interview with USAK Director Sedat Laciner: "Israeli Attack is a Piracy and Banditry"


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## Spring Onion

Live stream of the attack 


IHH Insani Yardim Vakfi - live streaming video powered by Livestream

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## Bang Galore

khalidali said:


> Funny coming from you who came here and starting the troll by defending the actions of the culprit.
> Now next time quote me when I say something to you. I hope that you would understand. And also if you were wise enough to what was going on you would have seen and understood it. But rather you are also in line with the people who will defend the killers just for the sake of it.



I think you are a little confused about how a forum works. My right to hold an opinion is not dependent on your permission for the same. As for quoting you only when you directly address me, that is my prerogative and not yours. If you are so interested in not being quoted use only private messages to make your point. Kindly refrain from issuing certificates of wisdom especially if as it looks likely,you have never even attended that university.


----------



## Aslan

Fireurimagination said:


> It's always good to get a POV from the other side as well
> 
> MFA Spokesman on Gaza flotilla 24-May-2010




The link is not working for me can you post the news here. And also if it is the view of the israerli military that you are trying to post. What new is going to come out of it. They have already tried to make a connection with Hammas. And also some other BS that they will throw out for the consumptions of the their audience. Nothing new my friend. But still I would appreciate it if you could post that news here.


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## Evil Flare

what abt Talat Hussein ?

is he ok ?


----------



## Kompromat

Yet another act of Terrorism.


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## Aslan

Bang Galore said:


> I think you are a little confused about how a forum works. My right to hold an opinion is not dependent on your permission for the same. As for quoting you only when you directly address me, that is my prerogative and not yours. If you are so interested in not being quoted use only private messages to make your point. Kindly refrain from issuing certificates of wisdom especially if as looks likely,you have never even attended that university.



Well by the same token I never called you any thing for you to be offended. Now you made a comment based on what I had told some one else. If that didnt sit well with you, guess what I dont give a Damn. Now you want to call me rude for saying that be my guest. I really dont want to indulge in a baseless conversation with you so please dont bother your self. Keep your pearls of wisdom to your self.

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------




Aamir Zia said:


> what abt Talat Hussein ?
> 
> is he ok ?



No news yet.


----------



## KS

khalidali said:


> Come on Force dont you know they are the Gods chosen people survivors of Holocaust, *indias* and wests allies. How can they even closely be wrong. Even if they do something in the international waters.  Using live Amo, how come they forgot to sink the ship. Didnt the ship owners know better, that its the Israelites, the only demo crazy in the ME. The defenders of the west.



Unnecessary bringing up of India into this.....

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## Spring Onion

Aamir Zia said:


> what abt Talat Hussein ?
> 
> is he ok ?



NO clue yet 

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

This live streaming was before the attack. I think its from last night

Live Show [Procaster] Sat May 29 2010 10:00:24 AM on IHH Insani Yardim Vakfi - live streaming video powered by Livestream


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## Aslan

-------------------


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## apophenia

Fireurimagination said:


> It's always good to get a POV from the other side as well
> 
> MFA Spokesman on Gaza flotilla 24-May-2010



Is MFA response justify the act of violence or depredation on the high seas. its plain and simple breach of international law. Israel now indulging in piracy and banditry.


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## Marxist

*Arab League Calls Israel's Raid a "Terrorist Act"*

Arab League chief Amr Moussa called on Monday for an emergency meeting to discuss what the body that groups 22 Arab states described as Israel's "terrorist act" against a Gaza-bound international aid ships.

"The Arab League's Secretary General has called for an urgent meeting at the level of representatives to look into this henious crime committed by Israeli forces against unarmed civilians that left scores of dead and wounded.

"The Arab League strongly condemns this terrorist act."

FOXNews.com - Arab League Calls Israel&#39;s Raid a "Terrorist Act"

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------

*Arab League Calls Israel's Raid a "Terrorist Act"*

Arab League chief Amr Moussa called on Monday for an emergency meeting to discuss what the body that groups 22 Arab states described as Israel's "terrorist act" against a Gaza-bound international aid ships.

"The Arab League's Secretary General has called for an urgent meeting at the level of representatives to look into this henious crime committed by Israeli forces against unarmed civilians that left scores of dead and wounded.

"The Arab League strongly condemns this terrorist act."

FOXNews.com - Arab League Calls Israel&#39;s Raid a "Terrorist Act"


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## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> Unnecessary bringing up of India into this.....




And also all I wrote that they were your allies, so is that not true.


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## KS

khalidali said:


> And all you could see in the whole thread the word indians. Well if you were so concerned with that then rather then shamelessly telling me what I had written tell you brothers to stop derailing the thread by defending the jews, and about the comment that you made on the WOT this is not the thread. And also lets put it like this that is the transit fee that we charge the ISAF. Hope you got your answer on the WOT funds.



Who s defending Israelis here..? 

Wat they r saying is that...a naval blockade exists---the turks know very well abt that and also know that if they enter the waters breaching the blockade they will be dealt with----knowing so much still they entered--meaning they entered at their own risk--it was not an unexpected thing.

Now dont question me wether Israelis are right in blockading...Right or wrong they r doing it and the world knows abt it.

Instead of bashing India why dont u ask ur Arab bros who r shamelesly licking the Israeli boots..or US ......u wont ..because u need them..the only scapegoat is India 



khalidali said:


> And also all I wrote that they were your allies, so is that not true.



There is a world of difference b/n the word ally and partner.
Being their partner doesnt mean we condone all their activities.

And BTW we r a much bigger donor of aid to Palestinians than u guys who usually sit in front of PC and do Israel blasting...

So discuss the topic w/o bringing India into it.


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## Jigs

IHH Insani Yardim Vakfi - live streaming video powered by Livestream 

Livestream is here if anyone didnt catch it. They are chanting "Hamas shoot shoot Israel"


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## farhan_9909

Pakistan should try one 1000KN nuke on tel aviv...

:X


----------



## ZARVAN ALI

Guys they only understand the language of bullets and missiles and sooner or later we will gift them these

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## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> Who s defending Israelis here..?
> 
> Wat they r saying is that...a naval blockade exists---the turks know very well abt that and also know that if they enter the waters breaching the blockade they will be dealt with----knowing so much still they entered--meaning they entered at their own risk--it was not an unexpected thing.
> 
> Now dont question me wether Israelis are right in blockading...Right or wrong they r doing it and the world knows abt it.
> 
> Instead of bashing India why dont u ask ur Arab bros who r shamelesly licking the Israeli boots..or US ......u wont ..because u need them..the only scapegoat is India




Dude dont bother, you are no different then them. You know what to save you the pain I took off my comments as you had made a retarded remark about the WOT and aid to Pakistan. So man up to your sh!t or dont bother at all. Now what the Israelies did was wring but you will not have the guts to say that, because of the reason that only you and God would know. And as far as the Arabs and Pakistan is concerned well have you missed it where pretty much ever one criticizes them day in day out. The are a bunch of no gooders so I wont argue with you over it. The only correction I would like to make is that we dont need them the leaders do. And as far as India is concerned, I cleared it out I made that comment in the context of your alliance. Now if you want to hold on to that for the sake of holding on to that. your call. Rather then going after me you should have criticized your own countrymen. aaaaah but I remember they are not wrong. After all the israelies only killed a bunch of people who were trying to defy the. how could they defy the jews.


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## Aslan

-----------------------


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## Evil Flare

farhan_9909 said:


> Pakistan should try one 1000KN nuke on tel aviv...
> 
> :X




No Man ... Turkey is more than enough for them ...

What i really want is that Turkey Break all his Diplomatic ties with Israel ...


----------



## KS

khalidali said:


> Dude dont bother, you are no different then them. You know what to save you the pain I took off my comments as you had made a retarded remark about the WOT and aid to Pakistan. So man up to your sh!t or dont bother at all. Now what the Israelies did was wring but you will not have the guts to say that, because of the reason that only you and God would know. And as far as the Arabs and Pakistan is concerned well have you missed it where pretty much ever one criticizes them day in day out. The are a bunch of no gooders so I wont argue with you over it. The only correction I would like to make is that we dont need them the leaders do. And as far as India is concerned, I cleared it out I made that comment in the context of your alliance. Now if you want to hold on to that for the sake of holding on to that. your call. Rather then going after me you should have criticized your own countrymen. aaaaah but I remember they are not wrong. After all the israelies only killed a bunch of people who were trying to defy the. how could they defy the jews.



Again the same blame....

FYI..i too edited my post regarding the aid as it is OT and may be offensive to u guys.

See what part of my sentence u couldn understand..?Where has an Indian member supported this attack.?

Please understand that whether its right or wrong..*that is the reality and sometimes reality sucks* like it happened now.

Wat im trying to say is that..the Turks very well knew that Israeli Navy will attack them ...but still they proceeded on their foolish plan.

Now please tel me who is to be blamed...India or those aid people who proceeded on their foolish plan in order to become martyrs..?


----------



## Jigs

Aamir Zia said:


> No Man ... Turkey is more than enough for them ...
> 
> What i really want is that Turkey Break all his Diplomatic ties with Israel ...



We probably will at this point. Turks are dead. There is no hope for ties anymore with Israel. I see this going to the U.N. courts.


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## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> Now please tel me who is to be blamed...India or those aid people who proceeded on their foolish plan in order to become martyrs..?




Now where did I blame India, are you really that dumb. Seriously. 
And on the other issue, its about morals, you have yours and yours tell you that all is good. Mine tell me otherwise. Now that could be for what ever reason I dont agree to your point, to the level that I find it ridiculously out of line. But its your opinion. So I will respect it for that. But blaming india come on man. Let me laugh on that real quick.


----------



## Aslan

Jigs said:


> We probably will at this point. Turks are dead. There is no hope for ties anymore with Israel. I see this going to the U.N. courts.



Jigs apart from the economic sanctions from the Turks and some serious talking they are not going to achieve more. The Israelies have gotten away with more. I hope some concrete action is taken but the achievement of more is doubtful. If the freaking Egyptian gov had some shame they should now open all of the border areas for free access of goods into Palestine. But the gov there is full of ignorant fools.


----------



## KS

khalidali said:


> Now where did I blame India, are you really that dumb. Seriously.
> And on the other issue, its about morals, you have yours and yours tell you that all is good. Mine tell me otherwise. Now that could be for what ever reason I dont agree to your point, to the level that I find it ridiculously out of line. But its your opinion. So I will respect it for that. But blaming india come on man. Let me laugh on that real quick.



yeah u can laugh...i ve got no probs..indeed u also deserve to be laughed as u cant distinguish between morality and reality.

*Wat im talking is reality...not morality...*

The world we live in functions by reality not by morals.


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## xenia

this is 2 days old news..but somehow foretells what happened...

*Isreali attack on Aid Convey*

NEW YORK: Hundreds of people turned out for a demonstration here on Thursday afternoon against Israeli blockade of Gaza Strip. 
*The protesters included a group of orthodox Jewish rabbis from the Neturei Karta International, which opposes the Israeli blockade of humanitarian aid to Gaza. *
The protesters demonstrated in front of the Israeli consulate in New York and then marched around the city, terming the *blockade abuse of human rights. *
*On Thursday nine cargo ships carrying 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid, mostly building materials, medical equipment and medi cines, set sail for the Gaza Strip in a symbolic attempt by activists to break the three-year Israeli blockade. *

*Israel has threatened to block the flotilla. *

*Cargo ships originating from several countries, including Algeria, Turkey and Kuwait, have donated medical equipment such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines, CT scanners, X-ray and kidney dialysis machines. 

Donors from Greece, Ireland and Sweden have contributed to the relief consignment. *

The ships are also loaded with cement, concrete and iron ore. Other notable items are milk, paper and school books.



there is no reason for israel to claim they were so naive that they didnt know what the ships contained..m plz guyz have some sanity..even rabis themselves are against the blockade n here members are bent upon proving israel innocent..

Dawn ePaper


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## Jigs

*Turkey warns Israel of 'irreparable consequences' after ship raid*

Monday, May 31, 2010
ANKARA  Agence France-Presse
Turkey on Monday warned Israel of "irreparable consequences" to bilateral ties after more than 10 people died in an Israeli operation on aid-carrying ships bound for Gaza, among them Turkish vessels.

The Israeli envoy was summoned to the Foreign Ministry as hundreds gathered outside Israeli missions to protest the assault that came atop already badly worsened ties between the two former allies.

"By targeting civilians, Israel has once again shown its disregard for human life and peaceful initiatives. We strongly condemn these inhumane practices of Israel," the Turkish Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

"This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations," it said.

"Israel will have to bear the consequences of this behavior, which constitutes a violation of international law," it said.

Israeli Ambasssador Gabby Levy held a 20-minute meeting with a senior Foreign Ministry official and left the ministry without making a statement.

He was told that "Turkey retains all its rights under international law concerning this assault," a Turkish diplomat, who asked not to be named, told AFP.

"We are considering the actions that we may take under international law," he said.

Turkey also asked for a detailed report on the fate of all people who were aboard the vessels, he said, adding that they included nationals from a total of 33 countries.

Levy was also told that the Turkish passengers and the wounded should be repatriated to Turkey in the shortest possible time and the vessels released, he said.

The Israeli navy stormed the flotilla of six vessels early Monday as it sailed to Gaza in a bid to break the blockade of the impoverished enclave, in place since 2007, and deliver some 10,000 tons of supplies.

The Israeli army said more than 10 passengers were killed, while Turkish charity IHH, which was part of the campaign, said at least 15 people were dead, most of them Turks


Turkey warns Israel of 'irreparable consequences' after ship raid - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review


----------



## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> yeah u can laugh...i ve got no probs..indeed u also deserve to be laughed as u cant distinguish between morality and reality.
> 
> *Wat im talking is reality...not morality...*
> 
> The world we live in functions by reality not by morals.



Now listen here, stop acting like a delusional fool. I laughed becase you made a lame comment pulled out of your back side. 


> Originally Posted by Karthic Sri
> Now please tel me who is to be blamed...India



tell me where did I blame India. Or just shut it. Stop lecturing me about morality and reality, where you cant even tell what some one had written what your own brain is making up for you to believe.


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

According UNCLOS (International Law) attack on ship or boarding a ship , flying a flag of a sovereign country in international water(outside 12NM territorial water limit) is an act of war..so theoretically Israel and Turkey are at *war *.

Inside the territorial waters itself, a ship has the *Right to Innocent Passage*.


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## Musafar

Turkey should Torpedo an Israeli ship in response. This is now an act of war. A *Turkish *ship carrying westerners, members of the European parliament and a lot of other innocent people was attacked in* international waters*.

They should not take this to the UN, as the UN is a toothless tiger controlled by Israels daddy, the USA. They will veto any action against them, like they have done for the past 40 years.

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## Dr.Evil

All those ships carry aid material were going through Israeli territorial waters and those guys purposefully wanted to provoke Israel and thye knew what action would be taken.

Those guys had it coming, I sympathise the loss of life but it was stupid act of bravado.


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## Jigs

Musafar said:


> Turkey should Torpedo an Israeli ship in response. This is now an act of war. A *Turkish *ship carrying westerners, members of the European parliament and a lot of other innocent people was attacked in* international waters*.
> 
> They should not take this to the UN, as the UN is a toothless tiger controlled by Israels daddy, the USA. They will veto any action against them, like they have done for the past 40 years.



I am sure military leaders are discussion this right now. Of course it will take time to prepare anything if we do take this course of action. The navy and air force are not on high alert yet.


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## Musafar

This map says it all.

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## Jigs

Dr.Evil said:


> All those ships carry aid material were going through Israeli territorial waters and those guys purposefully wanted to provoke Israel and thye knew what action would be taken.
> 
> Those guys had it coming, I sympathise the loss of life but it was stupid act of bravado.



It was in *INTERNATIONAL* waters. That is a violation of law and an act of war.

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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> All those ships carry aid material were going through Israeli territorial waters and those guys purposefully wanted to provoke Israel and thye knew what action would be taken.
> 
> Those guys had it coming, I sympathise the loss of life but it was stupid act of bravado.



You know it helps if you read the complete news before commenting on it. The ships were attacked in international waters. Why are you guys not getting that part at all. And even if the ships were in the israeli occupied zone. What justification is there for an attack on civilians and unarmed sailors. If I am not wrong the US entered WW1 because the Germans sank an american flagged ship on route to england. In international waters.


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## EjazR

Well all reports show (except the Israeli govt.) that the ship was in International waters when it got attacked. Even the Israeli media is reporting the same. 

The people aboard including Europeans, Israelis, Australians, Turkish Americans e.t.c. This is turning into a huge diplomatic incident. Greece has announced that they have cancelled an ongoing air exercise and will also cancel upcoming military exercises as well with Israel

---------- Post added at 04:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 AM ----------

*Greece cancels military exercises with Israel over flotilla attack | Earth Times News*

Athens - Greece on Monday said that a joint air force exercise with Israel has been cancelled, following an early Monday morning attack on foreign activists by Israel's military.

Greek Alternate Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas made the announcement following emergency talks with Israel's ambassador to Athens after at least 10 foreign activists were killed after the Israel navy stormed a flotilla of six ships bound for the Gaza ship with aid.

The flotilla of six boats, containing 10,000 tons of aid had been warned before setting sail for Gaza that it would be denied entry.

*Reports said there were more than 40 Greek activists, doctors and journalists sailing on the two Greek ships.
*
Earlier, Greek Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Grigoris Delavekouras said it was not certain whether there were any Greek casualties.

Greece's air force had begun joint training exercises with Israel off the southern Mediterranean island of Crete on May 9.

The manoeuvres, code-named "Minoas 2010," were expected to run until June 3 and consisted of aerial manoeuvres and knowledge exchange involving 10 Israeli F-16 and F-15 fighters.

The operation also involved simulated aerial combat, attacks on terrestrial targets, aerial refueling and search and rescue missions from the air force base of Souda to the Aegean island of Aghios Eftrastio.

Greece and Israel began joint manoeuvres in 1994, although the aim to date had been natural disaster response. Combat equipment was first used in such exercises was last June.

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Dr.Evil said:


> All those ships carry aid material were going through Israeli territorial waters and those guys purposefully wanted to provoke Israel and thye knew what action would be taken.
> 
> Those guys had it coming, I sympathise the loss of life but it was stupid act of bravado.



If the reports are true and the interception did indeed take place at 65Km from shore line , then legally it were *International Waters* and is an act of war.
Had it taken place with in 12 nautical mile limit , then Israelis had right to stop the vessels.

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## Musafar

Dr.Evil said:


> All those ships carry aid material were going through Israeli territorial waters and those guys purposefully wanted to provoke Israel and thye knew what action would be taken.
> 
> Those guys had it coming, I sympathise the loss of life but it was stupid act of bravado.



Get your nose out off Israels backside, these innocent people had it coming the same way those 100+ indians on the train that was derailed by Maoists had it coming, right?

This was an act of terrorism and cold-blooded murder by israel in *international waters*. The 150,000 Tonnes of aid was going to be delivered to the biggest prison camp in the world, Gaza. This flotilla was being sponsored by EUROPE not just Turkey.

Let's hope a mod bans you for condoning the terrorist actions of Israel on unarmed civillians.

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## abiab

Where is the international Law/Court?
Is it not the terrorism when it's about Israil?

Is there any news about *Talat Hussain* and* Raza Agha* ?


----------



## pak-yes

Ya what about Pakistani People on board?Talat Hussain contacted his office at 6 am and said that he was seeing Israeli Forces coming and that he don't know what would happen.


----------



## Aslan

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has strongly condemned the Israeli military raid on Monday against a Gaza-bound aid boat and dubbed it as an open violation of international laws.

Foreign office spokesman in a statement said attack on an aid boat is cruel act and violation of international laws and ethics. 

Pakistan has also expressed deep concern over the well being of Pakistanis and media persons onboard and Pakistani missions are in touch with Arab countries of the region to get the information about Pakistanis. 

Pakistan condemns Israeli raid on Gaza aid boat


----------



## T-Faz

If any of the Pakistani are killed in this, we must take the harshest action against Israel, no matter what happens, this has to be dealt with.

I hate TTP and the Israeli Government.


----------



## abiab

T-Faz said:


> If any of the Pakistani are killed in this, we must take the harshest action against Israel, no matter what happens, this has to be dealt with.
> 
> I hate TTP and the Israeli Government.



Please pray for their safety.


----------



## KS

khalidali said:


> Now listen here, stop acting like a delusional fool. I laughed becase you made a lame comment pulled out of your back side.
> 
> 
> tell me where did I blame India. Or just shut it. Stop lecturing me about morality and reality, where you cant even tell what some one had written what your own brain is making up for you to believe.


 These r some of the quotes by u genius and others blaming India of defending Israel.



khalidali said:


> Tell me Mr sympathizer of israeli brutality,





pkd said:


> Let's see with what logic Israel defenders comes up with to justify these crimes against humanity.





khalidali said:


> How shameless dude, well then again keep up the good work I am sure that the @$$ kissing pays of well for you guys.





Jana said:


> Just two words for defending the terrorist Isrealis.
> LAY OFF.





pkd said:


> 2. Indian freelance slaves willing to defend their actions to any length.





khalidali said:


> Funny coming from you who came here and starting the troll by *defending the actions of the culprit*. Now next time quote me when I say something to you. I hope that you would understand. And also if you were wise enough to what was going on you would have seen and understood it. But rather you are also in line with the people who will *defend the killers* just for the sake of it.




*I m sorry i expected ur lil brain to differentiate between reality and morality..My bad.*

U can carry on.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## T-Faz

Shameless indians, please ban those not condemning these atrocities and are standing up for Israel.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sparklingway

Sweden and Spain have summoned the Israeli ambassadors.


----------



## Jigs

sparklingway said:


> Sweden and Spain have summoned the Israeli ambassadors.



So has Greece and canceled their military exercise.


----------



## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> These r some of the quotes by u genius and others blaming India of defending Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I m sorry i expected ur lil brain to differentiate between reality and morality..My bad.*
> 
> U can carry on.



How lame and how stupid. You accuse me of blaming india and then show me a statement where i was talking to an or some indians. lol
Try harder next time. Genius. 

There is a difference between blaming a country and blaming its citizens. Damn man you cant get any lower then this. Can you.


----------



## sparklingway

Al Jazeera is now reporting that Sweden has recalled its ambassadors from Tel Aviv.


----------



## Aslan

T-Faz said:


> Shameless indians, please ban those not condemning these atrocities and are standing up for Israel.



T dont say that other wise Kartik will come and blame you for putting the blame on india the country and not on an indian its citizens.


----------



## KS

T-Faz said:


> Shameless indians, please ban those not condemning these atrocities and are standing up for Israel.



Please understand *no one is defending the Israelis here*....atleast not me.

But wat the turks did was of their own making..they knew very well that Israel would attack them if they go and knowing that fully well they went..

OK anyways in this emotionally charged u guys will definitely fing fault in this also..so 
*
R.I.P to those killed.*


----------



## T-Faz

WTF is this, imagine if Pakistan, Iran or NK did this, the war drums would be beating around the world.

This is madness, they are showing the demonstrators in a bad light on western channels. 

Lets see all the bastards through this time round.


----------



## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> Please understand *no one is defending the Israelis here*....atleast not me.
> 
> But wat the turks did was of their own making..they knew very well that Israel would attack them if they go and knowing that fully well they went..
> 
> OK anyways in this emotionally charged u guys will definitely fing fault in this also..so
> *
> R.I.P to those killed.*



Dude seriously jokes apart read this;

The ship was attacked in international waters.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Jigs

Karthic Sri said:


> Please understand *no one is defending the Israelis here*....atleast not me.
> 
> But wat the turks did was of their own making..they knew very well that Israel would attack them if they go and knowing that fully well they went..
> 
> OK anyways in this emotionally charged u guys will definitely fing fault in this also..so
> *
> R.I.P to those killed.*



I just want you to understand one thing. *INTERNATIONAL* waters. This means Isreal cant do anything till the convoy enters their waters. Just because we are heading that way in international waters doesn't mean you can kill us and then capture our ship and take it to your country.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Bill Longley

WORLDS BIGGEST TERRORIST STATE IS IS(IT)REAL


----------



## pak-yes

Indians should be ashamed hiding behind their Monitors sitting in an air conditioned rooms on sofa drinking Coke under the guise of Patriotism. how would they imagine the things going on when you are forced to live in an open jail for the last 3 years.

Most of you guys can't imagine life without internet and these don't have even electricity.Most of you guys can't imagine going outside in the heat of June and these guys have been living without shelter.Most of you guys don't want to go to government hospital and go to private ones imagine these guys don't have medicines for 3 years.If anyone of you relatives get hurt you immediately take them to private hospitals where they are treated imagine your mother is injured you take her to hospital and when you reach hospital say they have no medicine and your mother dies in front of your eyes just.You guys go to foreign countries for making your future bright but they have nowhere to go from the hell they are in.

Seriously Indians have absolutely have no heart.


----------



## Musafar

I'm waiting for the Israeli propaganda machine to start churning out its lies, they seem to be taking a while...

I'm guessing we will be hearing things like "these protesters decided to throw our innocent troops into the sea and therefore our response was justified", or something like "Israeli forces entered the ships to help with the relief effort, only to be mobbed by violent extremists on board and had to defend themselves".

It wasn't too long ago Hitler was starving them, you would think they would've learnt from oppression. Instead, they've learnt how to carry it expertly from their Nazi captors.


----------



## samv

No war crimes charges? I expect not... after all it's Israel.


----------



## Aslan

*Statement from the Turkish foreign ministry*
The interception on the convoy is unacceptable ... Israel will have to bear the consequences of its actions.

We strongly condemn it and await an immediate explanation.

By targeting innocent civilians, Israel has once again clearly displayed that does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives. 

We forcefully condemn these inhumane activities by Israel. 

The incident that occurred in open sea which is a gross breach of international law, could cause irrevocable consequences for our relations.

We wish to express our condolences to the bereaved families of the deceased, and swift recovery to the wounded.

*Ismail Haniya, Hamas leader in Gaza
*The government of Hamas call on Palestinians to carry out a total strike in Gaza and West Bank to show solidarity and protest the Israeli crimes. 

We request emergency session for the UN Security Council, Arab League and Islamic Conference and we demand the Palestinian Authority to stop all forms of negotiations.

The government decided to grant those on board Freedom ships the medal of honour.

We appeal to the UN to withdraw from the Quartet. 

The government has decided to name the May 31 "the freedom day". We demand the Arab League to carry out all decisions to stop the siege of Gaza.

We say to those heroes that the essence of your honourable blood has reached us before the aids you are carrying to us.

We salute everyone on board the Freedom ships.

*Salam Fayad, Palestinian prime minister
*Israel went beyond all that could be expected. 

This [attack] is a transgression against all international covenants and norms and it must be confronted by all international forums. 

Statement from the Palestinian presidency
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemns the crime perpetrated by the occupation authorities against international solidarity activists aboard the Freedom Flotilla. 

The Palestinian leadership is closely following the developments and the President calls on the United Nations to confront Israel, which is disregarding all international laws and norms.

The attack on the Flotilla is an attack against humanity. 

This incident will have grave consequences in the region and the world.

*Statement from the Arab League
*Secretary General Amr Moussa has called for an emergency meeting at the League's headquarters in Cairo on June 1.

The attack clearly shows Israel's aggressive nature and its disrespect to international and humanitarian rules and laws.

We call on the international community to take immediate steps against Israel, a rogue state that practices all forms of terrorism and piracy, and instigates tension and instability in the region and in the middle of the Mediterranean sea.

*Saad Hariri, Lebanese prime minister
*The Israeli attack on the aid convoy is a dangerous and crazy step that will exacerbate tensions in the region.

Lebanon firmly denounces this attack and calls on the international community, notably major powers ... to take action in order to end this continued violation of human rights and threat to international peace.

*Spokesperson for EU's foreign policy chief
*High Representative Catherine Ashton expresses her deep regret at the news of loss of life and violence and extends her sympathies to families of the dead and wounded.

On behalf of the European Union she demands a full enquiry about the circumstances in which this happened.

The continued policy of closure is unacceptable and politically counter-productive. She calls for an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossing for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza.

*Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister
*I am deeply concerned about the events last night in the waters off Gaza ... These are disconcerting initial reports.

The foreign ministry is now working to establish the full facts of what happened.

*Diego Lopez Garrido, Spain's secretary of state for EU affairs
*The Israeli storming of a flotilla of activist ships heading for Gaza is unacceptable and very serious event.

We have have summoned the Israeli ambassador [to Spain] to give us explanations and, of course, we will investigate and will start handling this matter immediately.

*Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iranian president
*[The attack was an] inhuman Zionist regime action against Gazans.

*Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, Emir of Qatar
*The Israeli act of piracy against Arab and foreign activists who tried to break an non humanitarian unjust siege imposed on our fellow citizens in Gaza Strip, for no reason but they exercised their democratic right of choice. 

The crimes purportrated this morning against the civilians supporting the Palestinians remind us of the unjust siege the open bleeding wound in the Strip; and all those who preach freedom, justice and democracy are required now to move and act to break this siege so the bloods of those free men do not go down the drains. 

This is also message addressed to the Arab states who were brought to the moment of justice by those free men on board.

*Micheal Martin, Irish foreign affairs minister
*I am gravely concerned at the reports emerging of the storming of a Turkish ship this morning by Israeli commandos. 

My department is seeking to establish the full facts of what has occurred and confirm the safety of the eight Irish nationals who sailed with the
Turkish-led flotilla.

The reports of up to 15 people killed and 50 injured, if confirmed, would constitute a totally unacceptable response by the Israeli military to what was a humanitarian mission attempting to deliver much needed supplies to the people of Gaza.

*Statement from Britain's Stop The War Coalition
*The action should see Israel condemned under international law.

Israel has repeatedly flouted law and public opinion worldwide in its treatment of the Palestinians.

The decision by Israel to attack the flotilla with such loss of human life shows it is arrogant and deadly intent in opposing any aid to the Palestinians.

*Navi Pillay, UN high commissioner for human rights
*I am shocked by reports that humanitarian aid was met with violence early this morning reportedly causing death and injury as the boat convoy approached the Gaza coast.

The blockade keeps undermining human rights on a daily basis.

The current situation falls far short of what is necessary for the population to lead normal and dignified lives.

I condemn once again the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.

*Franco Frattini, Italian foreign minister
*Italy deplores the loss of civilian life in Israel's raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.

We'll be live-blogging the aftermath of this incident throughout the day; keep checking back for international reaction.

Outrage over Israel attack - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KS

khalidali said:


> Dude seriously jokes apart read this;
> 
> The ship was attacked in international waters.



*I fully understand this took place in International water..thats y i said im not defending their actions*...

Is anybody having probs in understanding that..?

But my simple question is didn the Turks see this coming wen they set sail..? knowing fully well they will be attacked ..why did they proceed..?


----------



## Durran3

T-Faz said:


> Shameless indians, please ban those not condemning these atrocities and are standing up for Israel.



Yea let's go ahead an ban everything.... or maybe you need to grow up and let it go.
------------

With that being said this is an absolutely terrible thing Israel has done. What i'd like to see is how Israel will now play the Victim card again as usual and try to gain the world's sympathies. 

This is an act of piracy by a sovereign state against an aid convoy in international waters. Truly despicable actions by the Israelis. As IDF have no jurisdiction on a Turkish boat in international waters then they are by definition pirates


----------



## salahuldin786

khalidali said:


> *Statement from the Turkish foreign ministry*
> The interception on the convoy is unacceptable ... Israel will have to bear the consequences of its actions.
> 
> We strongly condemn it and await an immediate explanation.
> 
> By targeting innocent civilians, Israel has once again clearly displayed that does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives.
> 
> We forcefully condemn these inhumane activities by Israel.
> 
> The incident that occurred in open sea which is a gross breach of international law, could cause irrevocable consequences for our relations.
> 
> We wish to express our condolences to the bereaved families of the deceased, and swift recovery to the wounded.
> 
> *Ismail Haniya, Hamas leader in Gaza
> *The government of Hamas call on Palestinians to carry out a total strike in Gaza and West Bank to show solidarity and protest the Israeli crimes.
> 
> We request emergency session for the UN Security Council, Arab League and Islamic Conference and we demand the Palestinian Authority to stop all forms of negotiations.
> 
> The government decided to grant those on board Freedom ships the medal of honour.
> 
> We appeal to the UN to withdraw from the Quartet.
> 
> The government has decided to name the May 31 "the freedom day". We demand the Arab League to carry out all decisions to stop the siege of Gaza.
> 
> We say to those heroes that the essence of your honourable blood has reached us before the aids you are carrying to us.
> 
> We salute everyone on board the Freedom ships.
> 
> *Salam Fayad, Palestinian prime minister
> *Israel went beyond all that could be expected.
> 
> This [attack] is a transgression against all international covenants and norms and it must be confronted by all international forums.
> 
> Statement from the Palestinian presidency
> Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemns the crime perpetrated by the occupation authorities against international solidarity activists aboard the Freedom Flotilla.
> 
> The Palestinian leadership is closely following the developments and the President calls on the United Nations to confront Israel, which is disregarding all international laws and norms.
> 
> The attack on the Flotilla is an attack against humanity.
> 
> This incident will have grave consequences in the region and the world.
> 
> *Statement from the Arab League
> *Secretary General Amr Moussa has called for an emergency meeting at the League's headquarters in Cairo on June 1.
> 
> The attack clearly shows Israel's aggressive nature and its disrespect to international and humanitarian rules and laws.
> 
> We call on the international community to take immediate steps against Israel, a rogue state that practices all forms of terrorism and piracy, and instigates tension and instability in the region and in the middle of the Mediterranean sea.
> 
> *Saad Hariri, Lebanese prime minister
> *The Israeli attack on the aid convoy is a dangerous and crazy step that will exacerbate tensions in the region.
> 
> Lebanon firmly denounces this attack and calls on the international community, notably major powers ... to take action in order to end this continued violation of human rights and threat to international peace.
> 
> *Spokesperson for EU's foreign policy chief
> *High Representative Catherine Ashton expresses her deep regret at the news of loss of life and violence and extends her sympathies to families of the dead and wounded.
> 
> On behalf of the European Union she demands a full enquiry about the circumstances in which this happened.
> 
> The continued policy of closure is unacceptable and politically counter-productive. She calls for an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossing for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza.
> 
> *Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister
> *I am deeply concerned about the events last night in the waters off Gaza ... These are disconcerting initial reports.
> 
> The foreign ministry is now working to establish the full facts of what happened.
> 
> *Diego Lopez Garrido, Spain's secretary of state for EU affairs
> *The Israeli storming of a flotilla of activist ships heading for Gaza is unacceptable and very serious event.
> 
> We have have summoned the Israeli ambassador [to Spain] to give us explanations and, of course, we will investigate and will start handling this matter immediately.
> 
> *Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iranian president
> *[The attack was an] inhuman Zionist regime action against Gazans.
> 
> *Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, Emir of Qatar
> *The Israeli act of piracy against Arab and foreign activists who tried to break an non humanitarian unjust siege imposed on our fellow citizens in Gaza Strip, for no reason but they exercised their democratic right of choice.
> 
> The crimes purportrated this morning against the civilians supporting the Palestinians remind us of the unjust siege the open bleeding wound in the Strip; and all those who preach freedom, justice and democracy are required now to move and act to break this siege so the bloods of those free men do not go down the drains.
> 
> This is also message addressed to the Arab states who were brought to the moment of justice by those free men on board.
> 
> *Micheal Martin, Irish foreign affairs minister
> *I am gravely concerned at the reports emerging of the storming of a Turkish ship this morning by Israeli commandos.
> 
> My department is seeking to establish the full facts of what has occurred and confirm the safety of the eight Irish nationals who sailed with the
> Turkish-led flotilla.
> 
> The reports of up to 15 people killed and 50 injured, if confirmed, would constitute a totally unacceptable response by the Israeli military to what was a humanitarian mission attempting to deliver much needed supplies to the people of Gaza.
> 
> *Statement from Britain's Stop The War Coalition
> *The action should see Israel condemned under international law.
> 
> Israel has repeatedly flouted law and public opinion worldwide in its treatment of the Palestinians.
> 
> The decision by Israel to attack the flotilla with such loss of human life shows it is arrogant and deadly intent in opposing any aid to the Palestinians.
> 
> *Navi Pillay, UN high commissioner for human rights
> *I am shocked by reports that humanitarian aid was met with violence early this morning reportedly causing death and injury as the boat convoy approached the Gaza coast.
> 
> The blockade keeps undermining human rights on a daily basis.
> 
> The current situation falls far short of what is necessary for the population to lead normal and dignified lives.
> 
> I condemn once again the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.
> 
> *Franco Frattini, Italian foreign minister
> *Italy deplores the loss of civilian life in Israel's raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.
> 
> We'll be live-blogging the aftermath of this incident throughout the day; keep checking back for international reaction.
> 
> Outrage over Israel attack - Middle East - Al Jazeera English






IS SEE NO COMMENTS FROM THE U.S.A, U.K, INDIA


----------



## abiab

Karthic Sri said:


> But my simple question is didn the Turks see this coming wen they set sail..? knowing fully well they will be attacked ..why did they proceed..?



Man, Why don't you take it the other way, Why did Israel Plan an attack on the ship? 

Is it her moral Right to do so?


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Jigs said:


> I just want you to understand one thing. *INTERNATIONAL* waters. This means Isreal cant do anything till the convoy enters their waters. Just because we are heading that way in international waters doesn't mean you can kill us and then capture our ship and take it to your country.



In absence of declaration of war , In international waters..a ship flying a flag of sovereign country can be fired upon only in two circumstances.

As an act of self defence (had Turkish ship fired on Israeli ships first)
or 
On the suspicion of Piracy.

if none of these cases are applicable, then Israel is liable to damages.


----------



## T-Faz

Karthic Sri said:


> *I fully understand this took place in International water..thats y i said im not defending their actions*...
> 
> Is anybody having probs in understanding that..?
> 
> But my simple question is didn the Turks see this coming wen they set sail..? knowing fully well they will be attacked ..why did they proceed..?



They proceeded because they are doing humanitarian work and our religion tells us that there is only one thing to fear and that is GOD himself.

Why should they back out only because some hooligans said that they will attack them.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Jigs said:


> YouTube - Israeli troops storm Gaza flotilla



Jigs this vidio has been removed ..
Hypocrits they controll every thing ..!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Spring Onion

*EU Calls For Investigation Into Israel Military Action*

BRUSSELS -- The European Union called for an inquiry into deaths aboard aid ships seized by Israel's navy on Monday and urged Israel to allow the free flow of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.

At least 10 people were killed after Israeli forces intercepted ships trying to cross Israel's blockade of the Islamist-controlled Palestinian territory.

"High Representative Catherine Ashton expresses her deep regret at the news of loss of life and violence and extends her sympathies to families of the dead and wounded," said a spokesperson for Ashton, the EU's foreign policy chief.

On behalf of the European Union she demands a full inquiry about the circumstances in which this happened.

The spokesperson said Ashton reiterated the EU's position regarding Gaza's closure.

"The continued policy of closure is unacceptable and politically counter-productive. She calls for an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossing for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza," the spokesperson said.

Israel's military said its troops came under gunfire and knife attack during the takeover.

The convoy of aid and foreign activists had set off in international waters off Cyprus on Sunday in defiance of the Israeli-led blockade of Gaza and warnings that it would be intercepted.

Israel had expected the operation to end without bloodshed and had prepared tents in an Israeli port for detainees.

Israel says food, medicine and medical equipment are allowed in regularly to Gaza. It says an embargo is needed to stop weapons and materials that can be used to produce them from reaching Hamas Islamists.

Reuters contributed to this report

FOXNews.com - EU Calls For Investigation Into Israel Military Action


----------



## Jigs

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> In absence of declaration of war , In international waters..a ship flying a flag of sovereign country can be fired upon only in two circumstances.
> 
> As an act of self defence (had Turkish ship fired on Israeli ships first)
> or
> On the suspicion of Piracy.
> 
> if none of these cases are applicable, then Israel is liable to damages.



Seeing as the Turkish ship was attacked first people were killed and last time i checked Turkey was leading task force 151 on international piracy. Israel is screwed.


----------



## Spring Onion

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Jigs this vidio has been removed ..
> Hypocrits they controll every thing ..!



Check this one 


Live Show [Procaster] Sun May 30 2010 10:14:23 PM on IHH Insani Yardim Vakfi - live streaming video powered by Livestream


----------



## T-Faz

Any updates on Talat Hussain and Raza Agha. They are very important for us, Hussain is a great voice for reasoning and we needed more people like him, not loose them at this stage.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## Aslan

Karthic Sri said:


> *I fully understand this took place in International water..thats y i said im not defending their actions*...
> 
> Is anybody having probs in understanding that..?
> 
> But my simple question is didn the Turks see this coming wen they set sail..? knowing fully well they will be attacked ..why did they proceed..?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Jigs

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Jigs this vidio has been removed ..
> Hypocrits they controll every thing ..!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## prodevelopment

pak-yes said:


> Indians should be ashamed hiding behind their Monitors sitting in an air conditioned rooms on sofa drinking Coke under the guise of Patriotism. how would they imagine the things going on when you are forced to live in an open jail for the last 3 years.
> 
> Most of you guys can't imagine life without internet and these don't have even electricity.Most of you guys can't imagine going outside in the heat of June and these guys have been living without shelter.Most of you guys don't want to go to government hospital and go to private ones imagine these guys don't have medicines for 3 years.If anyone of you relatives get hurt you immediately take them to private hospitals where they are treated imagine your mother is injured you take her to hospital and when you reach hospital say they have no medicine and your mother dies in front of your eyes just.You guys go to foreign countries for making your future bright but they have nowhere to go from the hell they are in.
> 
> Seriously Indians have absolutely have no heart.




Please understand that all of this, all of what you wrote are lies fed to you by people who want to play with your emotions. 

Occupied Palestinian Territories fare better than both India as well as Pakistan in terms of Human Development Index:

Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)


----------



## Musafar

Another Flotilla should urgently be dispatched.

This time escorted by the navies of Turkey and Pakistan.

Update: Raed Salah is critically injured and is undergoing emergency surgery.

Raed Salah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## samv

Karthic Sri said:


> *I fully understand this took place in International water..thats y i said im not defending their actions*...
> 
> Is anybody having probs in understanding that..?
> 
> But my simple question is didn the Turks see this coming wen they set sail..? knowing fully well they will be attacked ..why did they proceed..?




The same thing happened when a group in the UK sent an aid ship to Sri Lanka during the war. 

The ship was not attacked.

It was brought to colombo port and then turned away.


*Sri Lanka navy seizes British Tamil aid ship on 'mercy mission' *

Sri Lanka navy seizes British Tamil aid ship on 'mercy mission' - Telegraph


*Sri Lanka turns back Tamil aid ship*
Sri Lanka turns back Tamil aid ship - Free Online Library


Then the ship went to India where it was not allowed into Indian waters for a while... and finally Sri Lanka accepted the cargo as long as it was first unloaded in India and then sent to Sri Lanka.

The whole agenda of the group that sent the ship was for it to be attacked and be used as propaganda... but that failed.



*Sri Lanka 'accepts' Tamil aid ship *



> By Charles Haviland
> 
> BBC News, Colombo
> 
> Indian authorities says Sri Lanka has agreed to accept a cargo of aid from Europe for Tamil civilians displaced in the final months of the civil war.
> 
> Earlier this month Sri Lankan officials turned away the aid vessel, which was sent by Tamil expatriate groups.
> 
> The vessel, the Captain Ali, will now be allowed to unload nearly 900 tonnes of food and medicine, thanks to high-level talks in Delhi.
> 
> The aid may be unloaded in Chennai in India and taken to Sri Lanka.


 
BBC NEWS | South Asia | S Lanka 'accepts' Tamil aid ship


----------



## prodevelopment

T-Faz said:


> They proceeded because they are doing humanitarian work and our religion tells us that there is only one thing to fear and that is GOD himself.
> 
> Why should they back out only because some hooligans said that they will attack them.



Humanitarian work? There was no humanitarian work going on. These people are media hungry and war mongers. The organisers put innocent lives in front of the line of fire and deserve to be condemned.


----------



## T-Faz

prodevelopment said:


> Humanitarian work? There was no humanitarian work going on. These people are media hungry and war mongers. The organisers put innocent lives in front of the line of fire and deserve to be condemned.



STFU, .

The american people themselves have the harshest words for Israel, who are you do produce your BS here.

Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla


----------



## Jigs

prodevelopment said:


> Humanitarian work? There was no humanitarian work going on. These people are media hungry and war mongers. The organisers put innocent lives in front of the line of fire and deserve to be condemned.



CIVILIAN SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.


----------



## salahuldin786

NATO-Turkey gets ready for military confrontation with Israel News that matters


----------



## Dr.Evil

Trap was set by those aid sponsors and Israel fell into it and the people who died was used as cannon fodder for their ulterior motives.

From the time this Islamist party came to power in turkey, they been trying to raise their profile and Islamic credentials in the middle east. 

*This was cunning trap set by them and naively Israel fell into the trap.*


----------



## prodevelopment

T-Faz said:


> STFU, .
> 
> The american people themselves have the harshest words for Israel, who are you do produce your BS here.
> 
> Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla





Jigs said:


> CIVILIAN SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.



Control your freaking emotions guys. 

To answer your argument,

"civilian ship in international waters" =/= "humanitarian aid"

If they wanted to provide aid, they could have easily offloaded their cargo at an Israeli port. Better still, if they did not trust Israel, ask Egypt to deliver the cargo. 

WHY SO MUCH MEDIA PRESENCE ON A HUMANITARIAN SHIP?


----------



## Musafar

Israeli BS propaganda machine has started.



> *MARK REGEV, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER'S SPOKESMAN
> *
> "Though our naval servicemen were instructed to exercise maximum restraint, they were attacked. They were attacked with knives, with iron clubs, and also with live fire.
> 
> We have unfortunately 10 servicemen injured, one of them very, very seriously. The violence was initiated unfortunately by these activists, and this is regrettable."



These blood suckers will say anything to make themselves look like the victims.


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## Jigs

prodevelopment said:


> Control your freaking emotions guys.
> 
> To answer your argument,
> 
> "civilian ship in international waters" =/= "humanitarian aid"
> 
> If they wanted to provide aid, they could have easily offloaded their cargo at an Israeli port. Better still, if they did not trust Israel, ask Egypt to deliver the cargo.
> 
> WHY SO MUCH MEDIA PRESENCE ON A HUMANITARIAN SHIP?



I was making sure you could read it right is all. Media ? oh idk so they can report on the matter ? Think of the crap that would be spewed by Israel if there was no one reporting on the ship.


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## qwerty99

prodevelopment said:


> Humanitarian work? There was no humanitarian work going on. These people are media hungry and war mongers. The organisers put innocent lives in front of the line of fire and deserve to be condemned.



If someone shoots your friend and kills him you cant blame your friend for not wearing a bullet proof vest. Those godless cruel Israel government are the ones to blame. I can't believe how you all Indians talking senseless like that. I think you are all from another planet. You can't be human.

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## prodevelopment

Jigs said:


> I was making sure you could read it right is all. Media ? oh idk *so they can report on the matter *? Think of the crap that would be spewed by Israel if there was no one reporting on the ship.



Is that why they had no western media on board, while media sympathetic to Palestinian was welcome on board?

Please see through the trick of the organizers guys. There was no 'humanitarian aid'. These people are media hungry. They wanted Israel to attack. They wanted people to die. Disgusting.


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## Icarus

Musafar said:


> Israeli BS propaganda machine has started.
> 
> 
> 
> These blood suckers will say anything to make themselves look like the victims.



Maybe they expected the activists to throw roses at the Israeli marines as they stormed the ships and fired live rounds at UNARMED HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.


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## prodevelopment

qwerty99 said:


> If someone shoots your friend and kills him you cant blame your friend for not wearing a bullet proof vest.



Nope, but if your pakistani friend tries to cross the LOC carrying a placard condemning India, I would blame him for his stupidity. And I would blame the person who sent him there.


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## Jigs

prodevelopment said:


> Is that why they had no western media on board, while media sympathetic to Palestinian was welcome on board?
> 
> Please see through the trick of the organizers guys. There was no 'humanitarian aid'. These people are media hungry. They wanted Israel to attack. They wanted people to die. Disgusting.



You should go discuss this on a conspiracy forum. While we discuss what really happened.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

i think theres quit justification for enforcing embargoes and sanctions over Israel.

*I could have annihilated all jews but i left some of them so that you should know why i was killing them [Adolf Hitler ]*

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## salahuldin786

send these boys in and we will see how israel would of come near a ship with a turkish flag flying high.

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## Evilhunter

Moral of the story is do not fiddle with Israel or else they will break your back


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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> Trap was set by those aid sponsors and Isreal fell into it and the people who died was used as cannon fodder for their ulterior motives.
> 
> From the time this Islamist party came to power in turkey, they been trying to raise their profile and Islamic credentials in the middle east.
> 
> This was cunning trap set by them and naively Isreal fell into the trap.









^^ and in case if you are wondering thats you.

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## Ahmad

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Looks like a Terrorist attack to me



looks like a terrorist attack? it is a terrorist attack. israel is a terrorist state, the reason they are enjoying their time is because of shameful and unconditional support of the US to the terrorists. the zioinists are neck and neck with the nazis.

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## Meengla

prodevelopment said:


> Anyone following the story for the past 2 days would realize that this was nothing but a media gimmick. Why else did they have an 'Al-Jazeera' reporter on board, go via the sea route and challenge Israelis head on? If they wanted to 'help' the Palestinians, why not go thru Egypt?



My God! Some of you Indians are SO BLIND! You are so myopic by your adversary to Pakistan that you will defend each and every action of Israel come what way!
You fail to realize the significance of this huge blunder by Israel. No doubt Israel will be roundly condemned throughout the world--and not just by the Islamic world. Read the 'Comments' about it by Americans on NY Times when such an article shows up about this incidence.

Israel said that it 'freed' Gaza. But it continued to control every aspect of Gazans' life. Was that freedom?! Hell no. There was no way to end the siege and so this 'media gimmick' had to be done and these activists--brave souls, many if not most non-Muslims, tried to get the world's attention this way about the siege and its immorality and illegality.

Pathetic Indians! Shut up at least if you can't show any sympathy to the diseased!

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> ^^ and in case if you are wondering thats you.


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## Jigs

Attack one of these in international waters.

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## Ahmad

prodevelopment said:


> Is that why they had no western media on board, while media sympathetic to Palestinian was welcome on board?
> 
> Please see through the trick of the organizers guys. There was no 'humanitarian aid'. These people are media hungry. They wanted Israel to attack. They wanted people to die. Disgusting.



and the way you see things through conspiracy theories is utterly disgusting. people are hungry in gaza, they are dying, they dont have enough food, medicine etc and you are here busy conspiring theories.

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/timodmo/Gullible.png



And your point was?? Come on man I got it that some of you are shameless human, who for the benefit of an alliance will close your eyes to the massacre of masses.


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## EjazR

Reports that there were EU parliamentarians on board as well. Almost all major countries in the world have expressed concern including EU countries. EU actually calling for a full fledged enquiry on this.

But what would be the best is that Israel finally ends its illegal blockade of Gaza which is UNPRECEDENTED in history continuing for the last 3 years. 

Even HAMAS has agreed to recognize ISrael when they go back to the 1967 borders so now Israel has no excuse of saying that HAMAS does not accept ISrael

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## EjazR

prodevelopment said:


> Is that why they had no western media on board, while media sympathetic to Palestinian was welcome on board?
> 
> Please see through the trick of the organizers guys. There was no 'humanitarian aid'. These people are media hungry. They wanted Israel to attack. They wanted people to die. Disgusting.



Please follow the news. Al jazeera was only on the media channel. There were 100s of journalists including Greeks Aussies, Americans and other European journalists on board. Including Israeli activists as well!

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## prodevelopment

Meengla said:


> Israel said that it 'freed' Gaza. But it continued to control every aspect of Gazans' life. Was that freedom?! Hell no.* There was no way to end the siege and so this 'media gimmick' had to be done and these activists--brave souls, many if not most non-Muslims, tried to get the world's attention this way about the siege and its immorality and illegality.*



Please control your emotions.

So you admit this was a media gimmick? Why not condemn it? That's all I've been doing. I've NOT defended Israel's actions. But I'm saying their actions were instigated by the organizers.

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## sparklingway

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I could have annihilated all jews but i left some of them so that you should know why i was killing them [Adolf Hitler ]



How many times do people need to be reminded that this is a fake quote or at best without any reliable source. I have even seen people writing Mein Kampf Pg xx after this to make it seem genuine (which would be even more false for the books were published in 1925 and 1926, before he came to power). There is some support that it was his words in a speech at at the Reichstag but this is not an established source as far as I know.

Stop using this quote.

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## prodevelopment

Ahmad said:


> and the way you see things through conspiracy theories is utterly disgusting. people are hungry in gaza, they are dying, they dont have enough food, medicine etc and you are here busy conspiring theories.



Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)

Human Development Report 2009 - Country Fact Sheets - Occupied Palestinian Territories

Who's spreading conspiracy theories now?


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

EjazR said:


> Please follow the news. Al jazeera was only on the media channel. There were 100s of journalists including Greeks Aussies, Americans and other European journalists on board. Including *Israeli activists* as well!



Israeli activists was unable to board the ship.


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## EjazR

Last message received from Israel Shamir, an ex-Israeli trooper who was on the Gaza aid flotilla.




> *Gaza Flotilla Massacre - Arab News*
> *By ISRAEL SHAMIR*
> Terrible news: dozens of our friends and comrades are dead and wounded in the pirate attack in the high seas on humanitarian aid boats by crazed Israeli Jews. This is a dreadful crime that will forever be remembered. The details are not fully available yet; the massacre toll stands meanwhile on 15, but it can go up or down. The best source for news yet Mondoweiss (Mondoweiss) on Twitter
> 
> What is clear that the Israeli pirates attacked the humanitarian aid flotilla in the international waters over 90 miles (150 km) out of their territorial waters. The boats carried no arms, but the Jewish modus operandi was already well established in their recent attacks on Gaza and Lebanon. They can&#8217;t see blood, that is their blood. Others&#8217; blood is not blood at all, in their eyes. Apparently, the pirates boarded the boats in the high seas, and when one of the pirates was scratched by a &#8220;sharp object&#8221;, they turned the boats into killing fields.
> 
> *The flotilla of six small and medium boats was on its way to deliver and distribute food and children toys for the besieged Gaza. Among them there was the Turkish boat, which was apparently boarded first. There was also a boat bought and equipped by a great friend of Palestine, Mahathir Mohammad of Malaysia. A boat from Greece, boats flying American and Irish flags were boarded and people massacred as well.*
> 
> Free Gaza did sail boats to Gaza over the past two years with differing results; they had some important persons aboard, notably our friend, the wonderful Cynthia McKinney, but this is the first time that the steering of this freedom regatta has passed from the hands of nice European volunteers to the locals, to the peoples of the region. This is a vast change, and a change that means a lot. While the Palestinian cause was only the cause celebr&#233; of Europeans with conscience, it was containable. Now, when it has become the concern of the local region, the countdown for the freak Zionist mini-Empire has begun.
> 
> The beasts understood it and decided to install fear in the hearts of peoples of the Middle East with their simple slogan: do not meddle with Jews but at your peril. This is the day to demonstrate against them.
> 
> 
> 
> Our demands:
> 
> - send Israeli ambassadors packing,
> 
> - send the navy to open Gaza for navigation,
> 
> - seize and hang the pirates, including the pirate &#8220;president&#8221; Peres and pirate &#8220;prime-minister&#8221; Netanyahu.
> 
> - No diplomatic relations, no place in the UN, no place in the international community for the murderers.

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Please control your emotions.
> 
> So you admit this was a media gimmick? Why not condemn it? That's all I've been doing. I've NOT defended Israel's actions. But I'm saying their actions were instigated by the organizers.




Dude seriously try to sell the crap to the ones who cant smell it. You are being hypocrite here, on one hand you are defending the actions of the jews under the pretext of what ever. And then you say you dont condone them. And for your slow brain the attack happened in the international waters. Cant you read. And try to read the statement from almost all of the European countries at least majority of them they have condemned this barbaric act. Only few of you are here trying to convince us otherwise.


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> And your point was?? Come on man I got it that some of you are shameless human, who for the benefit of an alliance will close your eyes to the massacre of masses.



My point was that you are too gullible and accept anything that your media feeds you.

But I don't want to go into name calling like most of you. I've been arguing with facts here. Why don't you?


----------



## Jigs

prodevelopment said:


> Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
> 
> Human Development Report 2009 - Country Fact Sheets - Occupied Palestinian Territories
> 
> Who's spreading conspiracy theories now?



Honestly can you just go away. Your trolling. There is a difference between an argument and your conspiracy crap.

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## EjazR

prodevelopment said:


> Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
> 
> Human Development Report 2009 - Country Fact Sheets - Occupied Palestinian Territories
> 
> Who's spreading conspiracy theories now?



Please read up on Gaza and West Bank. Gaza is part of the occupied territories. West bank is different.

The problem is in Gaza. You can check out the UN statements on the Gaza blockade themselves. You are confusing the West Bank with Gaza

*Gaza Strip facing humanitarian tragedy, warns UN expert- The Hindu*
*BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN says Gaza facing food shortage*


----------



## fawwaxs

*Military action requires military response...time for Muslim armies to come out from their barracks and liberate Gaza!*

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> Dude seriously try to sell the crap to the ones who cant smell it. You are being hypocrite here, on one hand you are defending the actions of the jews under the pretext of what ever. And then you say you dont condone them. And for your slow brain the attack happened in the international waters. Cant you read. And try to read the statement from almost all of the European countries at least majority of them they have condemned this barbaric act. Only few of you are here trying to convince us otherwise.



Point out one post where I've condoned the Israeli actions and I'll impose a self exile from this forum for 1 week. If you cannot, you quit these forums for 1 week. Deal?


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

EjazR said:


> Last message received from Israel Shamir, an ex-Israeli trooper who was on the Gaza aid flotilla.



looks like my source is wrong..there were some reports coming that Shamir 
will be unable to board the ship.


----------



## Meengla

prodevelopment said:


> Please control your emotions.
> 
> So you admit this was a media gimmick? Why not condemn it? That's all I've been doing. I've NOT defended Israel's actions. But I'm saying their actions were instigated by the organizers.



No. I will not condemn the 'media gimmick'. That was one probable way for international peace activists to grab the world's attention after 3 years of Gazans suffering.

But you Indians have spoken; loud and clear. Far fewer people are going to defend the Israeli brutality done today than those who will condemn it.

And, yes, some of you with your 'facts' and public awoval of 'not defending' are actually defending Israeli action. Pathetic! As I said, follow the blogspace carefully. Even Israeli blogspace at Haaretz to realize the blunder the Israelis have made today.


----------



## sparklingway

I'm still not ready to be dragged into anti-semitism. This is not a war on Islam. This was not an anti-Muslim act. This is imperialist arrogance and imperialism from a country with a terrible human rights record and known to have no care for human rights.

Mullahocracy and right wing media in Pakistan has of course jumped the bandwagon, why won't they. People on the flotilla were there for purely humanitarian reasons. Pakistan's media is of course ripping off the right wing populist ideas and the conjured threat from Israel.

Every humanist is condemning it. Do not jump the anti-Islam bandwagon.

As for our fellow citizens caught in this terrible incident :-

Talat Hussein has been taken to Ashdud, Israel - Will be deported from there - but we still have no contact - Aaj News source

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## Ahmad

EjazR said:


> Reports that there were EU parliamentarians on board as well. Almost all major countries in the world have expressed concern including EU countries. EU actually calling for a full fledged enquiry on this.
> 
> But what would be the best is that Israel finally ends its illegal blockade of Gaza which is UNPRECEDENTED in history continuing for the last 3 years.
> 
> *Even HAMAS has agreed to recognize ISrael when they go back to the 1967 borders so now Israel has no excuse of saying that HAMAS does not accept ISrael*



My friend, Israel dont care who reconginzes them and who not. FATAH recognizes them, but what they got in return? huge illegal settelments in palestine!! israel have one goal and that is to take all the arab land in palestine and expell the arabs from that land. they surely do it with high preceision and gradually. shame on those who uncondistionally support isreal and Nazism and that include america.

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Point out one post where I've condoned the Israeli actions and I'll impose a self exile from this forum for 1 week. If you cannot, you quit these forums for 1 week. Deal?



Dude as usual a lack of every thing comes into play and yet you resort to jumping the gun with out reading the thing or at least understanding it. I know and I have mentioned that you have yet not stated it clearly what you have inside. You are being a hypocrite is what I said. And that means that you are playing both ways, now by the above stunt of your you have confirmed my suspicion that you are nothing but a delusional kid who at present have nothing better to do then waste mine and every one elses time.


----------



## sparklingway

fawwaxs said:


> *Military action requires military response...time for Muslim armies to come out from their barracks and liberate Gaza!*



Stop this age old BS. Israel taught a lesson to the "Muslim" armies in 1967.

Israel cannot be defeated militarily nor can Gaza be liberated militarily. Neither will the international community allow this (read US) nor is it a viable option for population density is so high that collateral damage is beyond comprehension.

Control your war sirens.

This isn't about Islam, this isn't about Christianity or about Hinduism or Judaism. This is about human rights and a humanitarian cause subverted by an imperialist force.

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## sparklingway

Twitter is buzzing with news that a Turkish MP is among the dead. Turkish members confirm this news.


----------



## s90




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## Jigs

sparklingway said:


> Stop this age old BS. Israel taught a lesson to the "Muslim" armies in 1967.
> 
> Israel cannot be defeated militarily nor can Gaza be liberated militarily. Neither will the international community allow this (read US) nor is it a viable option for population density is o high that collateral damage is beyond comprehension.
> 
> Control your war sirens.



With all due respect Turkey isn't Jordan,Syria,Egypt. I don't want war but if Israel takes more aggressive actions they will be put in their place.

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## sparklingway

Jigs said:


> With all due respect Turkey isn't Jordan,Syria,Egypt. I don't want war but if Israel takes more aggressive actions they will be put in there place.



Turkey is a much bigger better and more powerful force but I wasn't replying in that context. I was merely replying to the "ummah" demand of liberation which is unrealizable.

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> Dude as usual a lack of every thing comes into play and yet you resort to jumping the gun with out reading the thing or at least understanding it. I know and I have mentioned that you have yet not stated it clearly what you have inside. You are being a hypocrite is what I said. And that means that you are playing both ways, now by the above stunt of your you have confirmed my suspicion that you are nothing but a delusional kid who at present have nothing better to do then waste mine and every one elses time.



Instead of calling me names, why don't you just condemn the organizers in the same vein when you condemn Israeli action?


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Instead of calling me names, why don't you just condemn the organizers in the same vein when you condemn Israeli action?



And why dont you go to hell! if that was the answer you were looking from me.


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## sparklingway

This is what I call utterly shameless reporting:-

Israel: At Least 10 Killed on Gaza Flotilla

Published May 30, 2010

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israeli commandos on Monday stormed six ships carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens* after encountering unexpected resistance as the forces boarded the vessels.*

The operation in *international waters* off the Gaza coast was a nightmare scenario for Israel that looked certain to further damage its international standing, strain already tense relations with Turkey -- the unofficial sponsor of the mission -- and draw *unwanted attention to Gaza's plight*.

Read the rest of the BS if you want :- FOXNews.com - Israel: At Least 10 Killed on Gaza Flotilla


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## prodevelopment

Meengla said:


> No. I will not condemn the 'media gimmick'. That was one probable way for international peace activists to grab the world's attention after 3 years of Gazans suffering.



Your choice. I choose to condemn both the organizers and the Israeli actions equally.


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> And why dont you go to hell! if that was the answer you were looking from me.



Nope, I'm looking for a condemnation for the organizers, that's all.


----------



## Evil Flare

They are deleting Videos from Youtube as soon they are uplaoded ..


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## Ahmad

prodevelopment said:


> Nope, I'm looking for a condemnation for the organizers, that's all.



why should the organization be condemned? they were trying to ship aid to the largest prison in the world. I know India have problems with Paksistan, and paksitan being a muslim country and having sympathy with the palestinian plight, but that shouldnt take your sense of humanity and punish the palestinians because of pakistan.

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Nope, I'm looking for a condemnation for the organizers, that's all.



 Have fun waiting for my condemnation while you are in hell. And wait for the day it will freeze, I might think of it then. Till then its Esta la vista


----------



## Musafar

*UPDATE: credible Israeli news sources sare saying 19 aid workers are now dead.*

Also pictures are emerging of the youngest person on board.







Sabah - O geminin en küçük yolcusu


----------



## Ahmad

Aamir Zia said:


> They are deleting Videos from Youtube as soon they are uplaoded ..



what videos?


----------



## Jigs

*Turkish PM, military chief cut trips short after attack on Gaza aid ships*

Monday, May 31, 2010
ANKARA  Agence France-Presse


Turkish Prime Minster Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an will cut short his Latin American tour and return home after a deadly Israeli attack on Gaza-bound aid ships, Deputy Prime Minister Bülent Ar&#305;nç said Monday.

Erdo&#287;an, who is in Chile on the last leg of his tour, will set out for Turkey on Monday after talks with the Chilean president, Ar&#305;nç told a press conference here.

Erdo&#287;an is expected to be back home Tuesday noon, he added.

Turkish vessels were part of an international flotilla carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, which Israeli forces stormed early Monday.

The Israeli army said more than 10 people were killed, while Turkish charity &#304;HH, which was involved in the campaign, put the death toll at 15, saying most victims were Turkish nationals.

Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and called for an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, where it holds a non-permanent seat, after more than 10 people were killed in the deadly raid on the aid ships, Ar&#305;nç said.

Turkey's military chief cut short a visit to Egypt on Monday after a deadly Israeli operation on an aid convoy and a rocket attack on a navy base in southern Turkey, Anatolia news agency reported.

General &#304;lker Ba&#351;bu&#287; was expected to arrive in Ankara later in the day, the report said.


----------



## KS

abiab said:


> Man, Why don't you take it the other way, Why did Israel Plan an attack on the ship?
> Is it her moral Right to do so?



*No its not a moral thing to do....*

But from wen did morality start playing a role in today's world..?

If the Israelis are to be blamed for un-ethical,immoral activity (they deserve to) the Turks have to be blamed for doing a foolish thing knowing fully well the implications.




Ahmad said:


> why should the organization be condemned? they were trying to ship aid to the largest prison in the world. I know India have problems with Paksistan, and paksitan being a muslim country and having sympathy with the palestinian plight, but that shouldnt take your sense of humanity and punish the palestinians because of pakistan.



Ur mistaken dude...India gives much more Aid to Palestinians than Pakistan has ever given.

Link - Click here


----------



## Jigs

Ahmad said:


> what videos?



A number of videos got deleted also they uploaded their own videos. The israeli navy.


----------



## Marxist

*Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel over deaths*

ANKARA, Turkey &#8212; Turkey's deputy prime minister says Turkey is withdrawing its ambassador to Israel, canceling three joint military drills and calling on the U.N. Security Council to convene in an emergency session about Israel.

The moves come after 10 pro-Palestinian activists on an aid flotilla were reported killed and dozens wounded by Israeli forces.

Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc says Turkey is withdrawing its ambassador on Monday and also calling back a youth soccer team from Israel. He equates Israel's actions with "piracy."

He rules out deploying Turkish warships in the Mediterranean but severely condemns Israel.

The Associated Press: Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel over deaths


----------



## abiab

news on missing Pakistanis?


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## prodevelopment

Ahmad said:


> why should the organization be condemned? they were trying to ship aid to the largest prison in the world. I know India have problems with Paksistan, and paksitan being a muslim country and having sympathy with the palestinian plight, but that shouldnt take your sense of humanity and punish the palestinians because of pakistan.





I'm not going to argue with every single one of you. This was not a humanitarian mission!!!!!

Your query has been answered at least thrice in this thread. Please go through it.


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## Ahmad

But what is the reaction of AMERICANS?


----------



## Jigs

*Western countries condemn Israeli attack*


Monday, May 31, 2010
ISTANBUL &#65533;From wire dispatches


EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton on Monday demanded Israeli authorities mount a "full inquiry" into the killing of civilians in the aid flotilla.

Ashton "extends her sympathies to the familes of the dead and wounded and is demanding a full enquiry into the circumstances of how this event happened," said a spokesman.

"She reiterates the European Union's position regarding Gaza  the continued policy of closure is unacceptable and politically counterproductive."

Spain, which holds the rotating EU presidency, summoned Israel's ambassador on Monday for an explanation for the deadly raid, the foreign ministry said.

Greece summoned Israel's ambassador Monday to demand an "immediate" report on the safety of about 30 Greeks on board. The foreign ministry said in a statement it had requested "immediate information concerning the safety of Greek citizens on board the boats... and stressed the need to take the necessary measures to ensure their security."

Ambassador Ali Yahya was called in for talks with Greek deputy foreign minister Dimitris Droutsas, said the text.

Athens also canceled a joint military excersize with Israeli Air Forces. 

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said Monday he was "deeply concerned" about the killing of civilians. The minister "is deeply concerned about the events last night in the waters off Gaza ... these are disconcerting initial reports," a foreign ministry spokesman told AFP."The foreign ministry is now working to establish the full facts of what happened," the spokesman added.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said Monday he was "deeply shocked" by an Israeli raid on the aid flotilla and insisted "nothing can justify" such violence. "I am deeply shocked by the tragic consequences of the Israeli military operation against the peace flotilla destined for Gaza," Kouchner said in a statement."We do not understand the still provisional human toll of such an operation against a humanitarian initiative that has been known for several days."

UN human rights chief Navi Pillay said Monday that she was shocked that the aid flotilla was "met with violence."

Arab League chief condemns 

Arab League chief Amr Mussa slammed a deadly Israeli military raid on Monday against a boat carrying aid for Gaza as a "crime" against a humanitarian mission.

"We condemn this crime, taken against a humanitarian mission and people. They were trying to help people. They were not on a military mission. Everyone should condemn this," Mussa told AFP.

"We are now conducting calls to Arabs to decide on our next step," said Mussa, who heads the 22-country organization based in Cairo. The Israeli army said "more than 10 people were killed" when navy seals stormed the boat, ending a high-profile mission by six ships to bring supplies to the blockaded Palestinian Gaza Strip.

Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri on Monday slammed as "dangerous and crazy" the Israeli raid, AFP reported. "The Israeli attack on the aid convoy is a dangerous and crazy step that will exacerbate tensions in the region," Hariri said in a statement.

According to Israel's private channel 10 television, Israeli marine commandos had opened fire after being attacked with axes and knives by a number of the passengers on board the aid ships, the television said, without giving the source of its information.


----------



## Meengla

sparklingway said:


> I'm still not ready to be dragged into anti-semitism. This is not a war on Islam. This was not an anti-Muslim act. This is imperialist arrogance and imperialism from a country with a terrible human rights record and known to have no care for human rights.
> 
> Mullahocracy and right wing media in Pakistan has of course jumped the bandwagon, why won't they. People on the flotilla were there for purely humanitarian reasons. Pakistan's media is of course ripping off the right wing populist ideas and the conjured threat from Israel.
> 
> Every humanist is condemning it. Do not jump the anti-Islam bandwagon.



Sensible comments, as usual.

This is not about Islam vs XYZ. Israelis would really like to paint the whole picture with one broad brush but that is not cutting anymore in the Information Age. The old 'anti-semite' label has faded except perhaps it is still valid for the skin-heads and the right-wing nutjobs of faith.

Israeli occupation of the Palestinians is the last overt colonial war of the world as far as I know. And Palestinians have sympathies from all over the world. Some of the most prominent pro-Palestinian voices are--unsuprisingly--NOT Muslim. 

Again, this latest media blunder by Israel will only hurt Israel. The parroting of 'facts' and 'dual condemnation' voices are likely to remain in minority. Get away from this blog and especially go the Israeli and Western/Non-Muslim blogspace to see the world reaction.

At the same time, we need to remain cautious about not giving anymore fire to the so-called Islamic radicals to take this issue too far and drag Pakistan into more terrorism. *Palestinians' plight is, above all, a humanitarian issue and should not be looked through the lens of religion.*

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## Ahmad

Jigs said:


> A number of videos got deleted also they uploaded their own videos. The israeli navy.



THATS WHY THEY SAY ZIONISTS CONTROL EVERYTHING IN AMERICA, INCLUDING THE MEDIA.


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## Dr.Evil

This is not a Humanitarian Mission but rather a propaganda mission and It seems that they have won this round.

A report saying a very young child died. What the heck that is child doing on that ship, its the carelessness and irresponsible nature of the organisers when they were quite aware of the kind of response from Israel.


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## Ahmad

prodevelopment said:


> I'm not going to argue with every single one of you. This was not a humanitarian mission!!!!!
> 
> Your query has been answered at least thrice in this thread. Please go through it.



somebody had to reach gaza and give them aid. israel have effectively blocked air , land and sea to gaza, they even didnt allow shipment of pasta, construction material etc to gaza. you guys are nothing but a bunch of hypocriticals.

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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> This is not a Humanitarian Mission but rather a propaganda mission and It seems that they have won this round.
> 
> A report saying a very young child died. What the heck that is child doing on that ship, its the carelessness and irresponsible nature of the organisers when they were quite aware of the kind of response from Israel.



the presence of that young child prove one thing!! and that is the lies of zionists that the ship had weapons. no any sane parent want his child to go on board in a warship.

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## T-Faz

Ahmad said:


> But what is the reaction of AMERICANS?



American Peopleare angry as hell , they have some very harsh words but their *government has said nothing, nada.*

Read the comments here:

Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla


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## Tiger Prowling

Its time for Turkey to break its diplomatic love affair with this Apartheid, Racist and Terrrorist country Israel.

Iam sure there Ottaman 4fathers must be turning in there graves.

Iam still waiting to here official arab condemnation.

Turks were going to arab gaza, where the f**k the rest of arabs were.

In any future conflit between Arab and Israel, i will support Israel, dont ask me why ?

I want these current bread of arab's to go to h**l.


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## Ahmad

sparklingway bro, i am sick and tired of the excuse of anti semitism, nor i personlly condemning the isrealis because they are jewish, i condemn them because they are new age nazis. the zionists are like a child who was abused in his childhood and he became child abuser in his adulthood. ziionist do every crime under the mast and pretext of anti semitism.


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> somebody had to reach gaza and give them aid. israel have effectively blocked air , land and sea to gaza, they even didnt allow shipment of pasta, construction material etc to gaza. you guys are nothing but a bunch of hypocriticals.



Ahmad there is simply no point arguing with these guys, this has been going on since morning. Some of them are defending these horrific crimes, just because india and israerl are allies. 

*PS for those who are slow and dont understand properly, my comments above are not in condemnation of india. Nor am I blaming india for any thing. My comments are in condemnation of the indians who are condoning these acts either directly or indirectly. *


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## Ahmad

T-Faz said:


> American Peopleare angry as hell , they have some very harsh words but their *government has said nothing, nada.*
> 
> Read the comments here:
> 
> Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla



yes my friend, when i said america i meant american gov which is under the influence of AIPAC or scared of AIPAC. but american public is great and they have my utmost respect.

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## Dr.Evil

Tiger Prowling said:


> In any future conflit between Arab and Israel, i will support Israel, dont ask me why ?



You seem to have picked up the winning side.


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## sparklingway

Dr.Evil said:


> This is not a Humanitarian Mission but rather a propaganda mission and It seems that they have won this round.
> 
> A report saying a very young child died. What the heck that is child doing on that ship, its the carelessness and irresponsible nature of the organisers when they were quite aware of the kind of response from Israel.





prodevelopment said:


> Your choice. I choose to condemn both the organizers and the Israeli actions equally.



Look, in the eyes of criminal law provocation and murder are entirely different things. This was not criminally inciting murder either. Are you suggesting that if I walk into a gang alley and get stabbed then I should be as criminally liable as the person who stabbed me for I provoked him by going through a nobody's-owned area that happened to be by his den (analogy being roads as municipal owned and hence not private property and intl waters being out of Israel's sovereign boundaries). I might extend this logic to the wearing-skimpy-clothes-gets-you-raped argument as well. Utterly fallacious logic being used to condone violence based on sympathies for a nation with one of the worst human rights record on the planet.

The humanitarian mission had a clear message. They could have taken another route but Israel had to be given a message that the International community will not take more of its BS and let Israel control the situation entirely and dictate the routes taken by foreign aid missions.

They were in international waters. Had they been just a micrometer outside Israel's territorial or contiguous zones or exclusive economic zones, they still would have been under the sovereign jurisdiction of the flag they were flying.

I'm not taking the BS of the people being armed. It can most definitely be imagined that a couple would have gotten agitated and perhaps tried to manhandle an armed IDF soldier, who being trigger friendly and having no concern whatsoever of human life killed the people in response. It is beyond comprehension that they attacked the soldiers. Utterly beyond comprehension.

If you were to give blame on a scale of 1 to 10 then Israel gets a 9.8 and the aid convoy organizers 0.2.

I cannot imagine how you people can support such an utterly inhumane, cowardly attack and call yourselves sane, rational and reasonable humans. Perhaps geo-politics has polluted minds beyond reason and logic.

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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> yes my friend, when i said america i meant american gov which is under the influence of AIPAC or scared of AIPAC. but american public is great and they have my utmost respect.



They will wait for an official version from the israeli gov and go with it. I wont be surprised if the white house sec comes out and claims that there were weapons on the ships.


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## Durran3

What pisses me off is the fact that Jamat-e-Islami is now going to play the religion card and as can be seen are coming out in large numbers and protesting in karachi and all over Pakistan. These tool heads just need an excuse to bring religion into everything. 

This is clearly a humanitarian issue not a religious one.. people in Pakistan need to control their anger. One of the silly comments i read was for an open invitation to War... as if this is in Pakistan's interest.

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## Tiger Prowling

Dr.Evil said:


> You seem to have picked up the winning side.



Shut the f**k up, i was upset. Evil

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## Ahmad

Durran3 said:


> What pisses me off is the fact that Jamat-e-Islami is now going to play the religion card and as can be seen are coming out in large numbers and protesting in karachi and all over Pakistan. These tool heads just need an excuse to bring religion into everything.
> 
> This is clearly a humanitarian issue not a religious one.. people in Pakistan need to control their anger. One of the silly comments i read was for an open invitation to War... as if this is in Pakistan's interest.



yes that is true. and you will see that those protesters will burn shops, cars and kill a few fellow citizens why zionists enjoy their time.

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## Dr.Evil

sparklingway said:


> Look, in the eyes of criminal law provocation and murder are entirely different things. This was not criminally inciting murder.
> 
> The humanitarian mission had a clear message. They could have taken another route but Israel had to be given a message that the International community will not take more of its BS and let Israel control the situation entirely and dictate the routes taken by foreign aid missions.
> 
> They were in international waters. Had they been just a micrometer outside Israel's territorial or contiguous zones or exclusive economic zones, they still would have been under the sovereign jurisdiction of the flag they were flying.
> 
> I'm not taking the BS of the people being armed. It can most definitely be imagined that a couple would have gotten agitated and perhaps tried to manhandle an armed IDF soldier, who being trigger friendly and having no concern whatsoever of human life killed the people in response. It is beyond comprehension that they attacked the soldiers. Utterly beyond comprehension.
> 
> If you were to give blame on a scale of 1 to 10 then Israel gets a 9.8 and the aid convoy organizers 0.2.
> 
> I cannot imagine how you people can support such an utterly inhumane, cowardly attack and call yourselves sane, rational and reasonable humans. Perhaps geo-politics has polluted minds beyond reason and logic.



I am not condoning the death of the people, but I am saying the sponsors and the organisers had thier own beef with Israel and those innocent people were used as cannon fodder.

Israel acted stupidly and they could have waited for those ship to come into their territorial waters before they could take any action.

Both the parties are to be blamed for the mess created. You just cannot blame one party and say other party is an angel.


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## Dr.Evil

Tiger Prowling said:


> Shut the f**k up, i was upset. Evil



Would you mind your language, else get ready to be treated in the same way & your post reported for personal abuse.


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## T-Faz

Its better to die fighting for what you believe in then turn a blind eye for the plight of innocents.

This act of terrorism sends a strong message that the state of Israel does not adhere to international laws and has to be taught to do so.


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## Meengla

Dr.Evil said:


> This is not a Humanitarian Mission but rather a propaganda mission and It seems that they have won this round.
> 
> A report saying a very young child died. What the heck that is child doing on that ship, its the carelessness and irresponsible nature of the organisers when they were quite aware of the kind of response from Israel.



May be the child was there because the parents--even in their worst nightmare--did not think that Israelis would be foolish enough to go the violant route considering there were prominent non-Muslim, Western participants on-board. Had it been only Arab/Muslims the Flotilla would not have taken off, knowing quite well the history of their solo-engagements with Israel. 

May be the child was there because the parents thought that, just like in another previous encounter, the Israelis would disable the ship and tow them away from Gaza? But Israeli commandoes boarding the ship was unimaginable to the participants but that unimaginable did happen with bloody consequences.

I don't think these people on the Flotilla were some right-wing Islamic nutjobs. They consciously knew what they were doing: Raising awareness about the siege in a way the world would FINALLY listen. And the world has listened.

By the way, I have closely followed the NY Times 'Comments' section related to articles about the Israeli-Palestinians coflicts. And it heartens me to say that educated, apparently non-Muslim Americans--common Americans-- are over-whelmingly pro-Palestinians in the Comments. And this can once again be proven should NY Times Editorial--a different kind of beast, might i add--allow Comments today. This is despite Israel's 'Megaphone' brigade of holy warriors online.

However, Indians will remain Indians. At least that's what I see by looking at most of their Comments today; I won't even bother with Bharat Rakshak today.


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## EjazR

khalidali said:


> Ahmad there is simply no point arguing with these guys, this has been going on since morning. Some of them are defending these horrific crimes, just because india and israerl are allies.
> 
> *PS for those who are slow and dont understand properly, my comments above are not in condemnation of india. Nor am I blaming india for any thing. My comments are in condemnation of the indians who are condoning these acts either directly or indirectly. *



Israel and India have a primarily military partnership. India is as much an ally of Israel as Turkey is if you want to use the word.
GoI has publicly condemned Israeli actions at times. For example, most recently in 2009 India voted for War Crimes Report and an investigation during the Israeli invasion of Gaza in 2008-2009 in the UN along with other countries.

*Indian PM condemns Gaza strikes, supports Palestinians-2009*

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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> I am not condoning the death of the people, but I am saying the sponsors and the organisers had thier own beef with Israel and those innocent people were used as cannon fodder.
> 
> Israel acted stupidly and they could have waited for those ship to come into their territorial waters before they could take any action.
> 
> Both the parties are to be blamed for the mess created. You just cannot blame one party and say other party is an angel.



you are acting like the american gov, when israelis build more of the illegal settlements and the palestinian decide to strike or call off the negotiantions, the americans come and condemn both of parties instead of trying to point out the main culprit, you are doing the same thing here.

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## Marxist

*Netanyahu to continue Canada-US trip: Israeli official*

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would stay in Canada and not return home in the wake of a deadly navy raid which killed up to 19 people, a senior official with the delegation said on Monday.

"The prime minister is not leaving, he will carry on with his schedule," the official told reporters in Ottawa.

An AFP correspondent travelling with the delegation said the situation was one of "complete confusion."

"First were were ordered to pack, then we were told to put everything on hold," he said, adding that an official had said members of the delegation were currently "in consultations."

Netanyahu cancelled a press briefing due later in the morning but was expected to go ahead with a scheduled joint press conference with his Canadian counterpart Stephen Harper at 11:00 am (1500 GMT), the correspondent said.

Earlier, Israel public radio had reported that Netanyahu was to cut short his trip to return home in the wake of a deadly pre-dawn raid by the Israeli navy on a fleet of aid ships carrying hundreds of foreign activists, which left up to 19 dead -- most of them reportedly Turkish.

The Israeli leader is due to visit the White House on Tuesday for talks with US President Barack Obama, aimed at mending ties between the two allies which have been strained due to a spat over Jewish settlements.

IC Publications | African Business | New African | New African Woman | African Banker | The Middle East | African Business (en français) | New African (en français) | New African Woman (en français) | African Banker (en français)


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## Ahmad

EjazR said:


> Israel and India have a primarily military partnership. India is as much an ally of Israel as Turkey is if you want to use the word.
> GoI has publicly condemned Israeli actions at times. For example, most recently in 2009 India voted for War Crimes Report and an investigation during the Israeli invasion of Gaza in 2008-2009 in the UN along with other countries.



thanks for the information.


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## sparklingway

Dr.Evil said:


> I am not condoning the death of the people, but I am saying the sponsors and the organisers had thier own beef with Israel and those innocent people were used as cannon fodder.
> 
> Israel acted stupidly and they could have waited for those ship to come into their territorial waters before they could take any action.



They were bringing aid regardless of the message they were trying to pass. They were bringing food and medicines to people unable to meet basic needs resulting from an oppressive regime's dictatorial and inhumane control over the region.

The attackers were armed and barbarians. They killed people. Food and medicines don't kill people.

I seriously hope that the EU responds in unison and this time the US can be pushed to let go off its blowjobs to Israel.



> Both the parties are to be blamed for the mess created. You just cannot blame one party and say other party is an angel.



Barbarian Forces 1 - Aid convoy 0

Organizers deserve no blame. Had Israel just arrested them when they landed at the port, it would have been a different case. They killed people in international waters. The world should not forget this barbarian act. I hope this is the final nail in the coffin of Israeli blockades in the middle east peace process.

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## Aslan

EjazR said:


> Israel and India have a primarily military partnership. India is as much an ally of Israel as Turkey is if you want to use the word.
> GoI has publicly condemned Israeli actions at times. For example, most recently in 2009 India voted for War Crimes Report and an investigation during the Israeli invasion of Gaza in 2008-2009 in the UN along with other countries.



Ejaz Sahib out of every one else I was not expecting you to come swinging. I hope that you would understand the context I made those points in. And to whom it were directed. And also as I had mentioned that I am not criticizing india in any way shape or form. And are there any statements from the GOI today. Just curious because so far I have not seen one. And again, please understand the point that I was making and to whom it was directed to.

A slight correction Turkey was an ally to the israelis. And after today I dont think that that will last longer.


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## T-Faz

Do this to ask Obama to cancel his meeting with the Israeli PM tomorrow.

Daily Kos: Contact Obama to Cancel Tomorrow's Israeli PM Visit!

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Israelis think by playing their holocaust card they are able to gather sympathies of entire world so can get away with anything....they think they are above the laws ,which apply to the rest of the world...this time they have gone too far..Now Turkey has them by their balls.

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## P.kid

Dr.Evil said:


> I am not condoning the death of the people, but I am saying the sponsors and the organisers had thier own beef with Israel and those innocent people were used as cannon fodder.
> 
> Israel acted stupidly and they could have waited for those ship to come into their territorial waters before they could take any action.
> 
> *Both the parties are to be blamed *for the mess created. You just cannot blame one party and say other party is an angel.




Are you mad? Give me the stuff ur on. Nar i jke Majority of the blame should go on israel. Care explain in detail why is it beef sending god damn food supplies+medical supp. to people in need of it. My two cents but israel will put weapons on that boat and proclaim that the people on the boat were using them to provide stuff to the milita.


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## prodevelopment

sparklingway said:


> Look, in the eyes of criminal law provocation and murder are entirely different things. This was not criminally inciting murder either. Are you suggesting that if I walk into a gang alley and get stabbed then I should be as criminally liable as the person who stabbed me for I provoked him by going through a nobody's-owned area that happened to be by his den (analogy being roads as municipal owned and hence not private property and intl waters being out of Israel's sovereign boundaries). I might extend this logic to the wearing-skimpy-clothes-gets-you-raped argument as well. Utterly fallacious logic being used to condone violence based on sympathies for a nation with one of the worst human rights record on the planet.
> 
> The humanitarian mission had a clear message. They could have taken another route but Israel had to be given a message that the International community will not take more of its BS and let Israel control the situation entirely and dictate the routes taken by foreign aid missions.
> 
> They were in international waters. Had they been just a micrometer outside Israel's territorial or contiguous zones or exclusive economic zones, they still would have been under the sovereign jurisdiction of the flag they were flying.
> 
> I'm not taking the BS of the people being armed. It can most definitely be imagined that a couple would have gotten agitated and perhaps tried to manhandle an armed IDF soldier, who being trigger friendly and having no concern whatsoever of human life killed the people in response. It is beyond comprehension that they attacked the soldiers. Utterly beyond comprehension.
> 
> If you were to give blame on a scale of 1 to 10 then Israel gets a 9.8 and the aid convoy organizers 0.2.
> 
> I cannot imagine how you people can support such an utterly inhumane, cowardly attack and call yourselves sane, rational and reasonable humans. Perhaps geo-politics has polluted minds beyond reason and logic.



Finally a rational opinion.

Agreed that provocation and murder are two different things. It was a stupid decision by Israel, but they were being provoked. Israel offered to resolve the situation peacefully but the protesters refused, instead choosing to continue their actions. Yes, it was a stupid decision by the Israelis.

What we are protesting is the 'humanitarian aid mission' title being awarded to the protesters. Their mission was entirely political in nature. Otherwise, the protests would have been extended against Egypt as well.


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## prodevelopment

sparklingway said:


> They were bringing aid regardless of the message they were trying to pass. They were bringing food and medicines to people unable to meet basic needs resulting from an oppressive regime's dictatorial and inhumane control over the region.




This is where we disagree sir. If their prime motive was bringing aid, their methods could have been very different. They could have tried to pass the aid through Egypt. Instead, they chose the water route. Plus they chose to bring along huge amounts of media rather than aid workers.

Their motive was media attention, and now, unfortunately, they have it.


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## sparklingway

prodevelopment said:


> Agreed that provocation and murder are two different things. It was a stupid decision by Israel, but they were being provoked. Israel offered to resolve the situation peacefully but the protesters refused, instead choosing to continue their actions. Yes, it was a stupid decision by the Israelis.


Israel isn't a kid with a bad temper. It's a country, a sovereign state and should have the brains to deal with such a situation peacefully and tactfully. Clearly they did not. It can mean one of two things (generalizing by a big brush)

1) Israel thought it could get away with an armed assault. They might have thought that there would no civilian casualties but they thought that they would get away with such an armed assault courtesy some big players in the intl community who are more than willing to suck their genitalia.

2) Israel committed an utter, utter mistake. Perhaps even a failure of the chain of command. Such a big failure is unlikely to happen though.



> What we are protesting is the 'humanitarian aid mission' title being awarded to the protesters. Their mission was entirely political in nature. Otherwise, the protests would have been extended against Egypt as well.



Is it a crime to do a political protest against Israel? Does protesting against Israel mean that one must get a bullet in his brain?

Israel has made a terrible mistake. The flag flying on the flotilla wasn't a Jordanian one or a Saudi. It was a red and white Turkish flag and Turkey knows how to defend itself besides its elevated position amongst the comity of nations. Ardogan has Netanyahu by the balls now. Let's see how things roll out.

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## T-Faz

*I have a great idea, lets send the Taliban, Jamaat e Islami, Deobandi and the league of extremists to Israel by Boat.*

All our problems will be solved.


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## P.kid

prodevelopment said:


> This is where we disagree sir. If their prime motive was bringing aid, their methods could have been very different. They could have tried to pass the aid through Egypt. Instead, they chose the water route. Plus they chose to bring along huge amounts of media rather than aid workers.
> 
> Their motive was media attention, and now, unfortunately, they have it.



How do you know that israel was going to giv everything and not remove/keep some of it. You can never trust a stranger. and whats the problem if they gave the aid themsevles?


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## Meengla

prodevelopment said:


> Finally a rational opinion.
> 
> Agreed that provocation and murder are two different things. It was a stupid decision by Israel, but they were being provoked. Israel offered to resolve the situation peacefully but the protesters refused, instead choosing to continue their actions. Yes, it was a stupid decision by the Israelis.
> 
> What we are protesting is the 'humanitarian aid mission' title being awarded to the protesters. Their mission was entirely political in nature. Otherwise, the protests would have been extended against Egypt as well.



'Stupid'?! 'Provoked'?!
Wah, ji Wah! Then some idiot can say the same thing about Kassab being 'stupid'. 
Israel's action was an act of TERRORISM! Just like Kassab's was. Don't try to obfuscate and use dual language. Your hypocrisy and double-talk is for the world to see. And yet your words are embarassing even a few of your fellow countrymen who are willing to stick their necks out and recognize who is majorly wrong here: Israel!

Again and again you are missing the point: The Flotilla was raising awareness about the Siege of Gaza in the one possible way it might have gotten the world's attention. The Flotilla knew the dangers and that's why it picked up a large number of prominent Western/Non-Muslim volunteers to try to shield itself. Would heaven have fallen if they were let through?!

I guess the heaven might fall next time if the reports of Turkish navy escorting the next Flotilla through the Interntional Waters is true. Perhaps then people like you may decide to stay quieter because force will be matched with force? Or perhaps your hatred of anything Pakistan--and by extension Muslim--is so deep that you will still carry on with the usual double talk?

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## Evil Flare

prodevelopment said:


> Their motive was media attention, and now, unfortunately, they have it.




Ok Mr Zionist ....

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

T-Faz said:


> *I have a great idea, lets send the Taliban, Jamaat e Islami, Deobandi and the league of extremists to Israel by Boat.*
> 
> All our problems will be solved.



Please send LET , JEM , Hizbul with them too our problems will be solved too..


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## T-Faz

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> Please send LET , JEM , Hizbul with them too our problems will be solved too..



Done, you can anchor the boat with all of them.


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## prodevelopment

sparklingway said:


> Israel isn't a kid with a bad temper. It's a country, a sovereign state and should have the brains to deal with such a situation peacefully and tactfully. Clearly they did not. It can mean one of two things (generalizing by a big brush)
> 
> 1) Israel thought it could get away with an armed assault. They might have thought that there would no civilian casualties but they thought that they would get away with such an armed assault courtesy some big players in the intl community who are more than willing to suck their genitalia.
> 
> 2) Israel committed an utter, utter mistake. Perhaps even a failure of the chain of command. Such a big failure is unlikely to happen though.
> 
> 
> Israel has made a terrible mistake. The flag flying on the flotilla wasn't a Jordanian one or a Saudi. It was a red and white Turkish flag and Turkey knows how to defend itself besides its elevated position amongst the comity of nations. Ardogan has Netanyahu by the balls now. Let's see how things roll out.




Indeed. Agreed with every single word there.



sparklingway said:


> Is it a crime to do a political protest against Israel? Does protesting against Israel mean that one must get a bullet in his brain?



Nope, but it is double standard to label a political protest as humanitarian aid.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Im no expert nor some super highly educated intellectual...but id like to say here tht wat israel did today..... if somebody supports the bloodshed of innocent. Hes either a sick creep or I love dady israel coz it gives us weapons hipocrite blind moron.
Peace and for israel i wish the same barbarity and bloodshed tht it inflicts upon innocent be it by martyring mosques,killing innocent children, or killing innocents who were working for humanity.

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## Marxist

Ehud Barak: Flotilla organizers to blame for 15 dead activists

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in a press conference on Monday that while he was sorry for lives lost, the organizers of the Gaza-bound protest flotilla were solely responsible for the outcome of the fatal IDF raid earlier in the day. Fifteen activists were killed and dozens wounded in the violent clashes.

Barak said that the soldiers tried to disperse the activists aboard the ship peacefully but were forced to open fire to protect themselves.

He called the flotilla a provocation, specifically called the IHH, an Islamic aid organization, "extremist supporters of terror."

The defense minister also called on Arab and Palestinian leaders not to let this "provocation by irresponsible people" ruin the progress made in proximity peace talks.

IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi said Monday that the violence aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of the ships of the Gaza-bound protest flotilla, was instigated by those aboard the ships and that soldiers who opened fire were defending themselves.

Ashkenazi noted that the Mavi Marmara, the only ship on which violence took place, was different than the other five ships of the flotilla. He said that five ships carried humanitarians and peace activists but the Mavi Marmara was sponsored by the extremist organization the IHH and those aboard acted in "extreme violence."

Israeli Navy commander Vice-Admiral Eliezer Marom said Monday that IDF soldiers that raided Mavi Marmara acted with "perseverance and bravery."

Marom said that the soldiers lives were in danger and that they fired their weapons in self defense. He added that given the situation, many more than ten people could have been killed if the soldiers had not acted with the proper sensitivity.

Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said that the flotilla of ships "was an armada of hate and violence."

Speaking at a Jerusalem press conference on Monday morning. "It was a premeditated and outrageous provocation" and its organizers had ties to global Jihad, al Qaida and Hamas, said Ayalon.

"Their intent was violent, their methods were violent and their results were unfortunately violent," Ayalon said.

"Israel regrets the loss of life and did everything it could to avoid this outcome," Ayalon stressed, adding that Israel had offered to transport the humanitarian cargo on board the ship to Gaza.

"The organizers on the ship did not heed the calls of our forces this morning to peacefully follow them and bring a peaceful closure to this event," said Ayalon, iterating that the successful arrival of the flotilla in Gaza would have created "a corridor of arms smuggling."

The Foreign Ministry has convened a noon meeting of all ambassadors in the country. The Turkish ambassador was requested to arrive half-an-hour early for a private conversation.

Political echelons, security and police hurried to respond on Monday to deadly clashes that took place earlier in the day between Navy commandos and members of a Turkish flotilla bound for Gaza.

Kadima chair Tzipi Livni called Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Defense Minister Ehud Barak to offer her help in dealing with the diplomatic crisis Israel was likely to face in the aftermath of the violent incident.

Livni's party mate Kadima Council head Haim Ramon attacked Netanyahu's government for mishandling the Gaza flotilla affair.

In Canada, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was getting constant updates on the clashes, a foreign ministry spokesman told Army Radio. Netanyahu is in Canada as part of a trip that has him slated to meet Tuesday with US President Barack Obama.

The IDF and police were preparing for the possibility of demonstrations and violence among Palestinians as well as Israeli-Arabs on Monday, amid reports of up to 15 dead. 

Northern District police chief Cmdr. Shimon Koren completed an evaluation of the security situation in the North on Monday morning, and ordered a high state of alert and instructed police officers to be ready "for the possibility of any scenario or attempt to cause a disturbance."

Also Monday morning, Israeli NGO Gush Shalom was set to demonstrate in support of the "Free Gaza" convoy, according to an email circulated by the group.

The demonstrators intend to converge outside the center in Ashdod where the detained international aid activists are supposed to be held.

Meanwhile, Public Security Minister Yittzhak Aharonovitch cancelled a planned appearance at an anti-violence march in Lod scheduled for Monday. The march will go ahead as planned.

Barak: Flotilla organizers to blame for 15 dead activists


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## sparklingway

*Talat Hussain is visible at timestamp 05:30. He was therefore safe when this video was shot and and hopefully is safe as of now.*





!

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## Aslan

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

T-Faz said:


> Done, you can anchor the boat with all of them.



Oh i will commandeer their ship( as soon as I get my licence ) and anchor it in the middle Israeli naval exercise.


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## Marxist

*****deleted*****


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## alibaz

prodevelopment said:


> This is where we disagree sir. If their prime motive was bringing aid, their methods could have been very different. They could have tried to pass the aid through Egypt. Instead, they chose the water route. Plus they chose to bring along huge amounts of media rather than aid workers.
> 
> Their motive was media attention, and now, unfortunately, they have it.



I am very sorry to learn these comments from a person belonging to the biggest democracy in the world.

Don't you think the world should know that a new Holocaust is going on in Palestine. Don't you think that world should know how basic human rights are bulldozed in Palestine. Sorry brother I cant believe. Your last line was really disappointing:

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## Realist

The UK and US are pretty quiet about it. That attack was outrageous, I hope it is dealt with in the proper way.


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## alibaz

sparklingway said:


> *Talat Hussain is visible at timestamp 05:30. He was therefore safe when this video was shot and and hopefully is safe as of now.*
> 
> YouTube- Israel Navy Massacres Freedom #Flotilla Passengers in International Waters!



Thanks. I pray for his safty and security


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## alibaz

Realist said:


> The UK and US are pretty quiet about it. That attack was outrageous, I hope it is dealt with in the proper way.



They are busy in finding excuses for this brutal and inhuman act.


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## Durran3

prodevelopment said:


> Finally a rational opinion.
> 
> What we are protesting is the 'humanitarian aid mission' title being awarded to the protesters. Their mission was entirely political in nature. Otherwise, the protests would have been extended against Egypt as well.



Political maybe... necessary yes. The blockade has been there for almost three consecutive years now with no solution and it's time the world listens and takes a look at what needed to be done. This Political stunt as you love to call it is better than violence any day of the week.

Plus capturing and boarding ships in international waters is piracy by definition. You can't play the self defense card as these aid convoys were not Somali pirates equipped with automatic weapons or anything of that sort that posed a threat to Israel in any way or form. It would have been fine if this action was taken on Israeli waters but alas that's not the case.

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## Aslan

alibaz said:


> They are busy in finding excuses for this brutal and inhuman act.




Well NYT is already mentioning that the attack will provide the Palestinians with propaganda material.


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## T-Faz

The USG is sleeping, if this was one of their favorites Iran, NK or Pakistan, the armies would have been on hold for attack.

NYT would be drumming the sounds of war and the world media up in arms with all kinds of propaganda.

Funny how things are different for different nations.

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## Aslan

India urged to condemn Israeli attack on flotilla

2010-05-31 17:00:00
The Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) Monday urged the government to condemn the Israeli attack on a flotilla of six ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza.

'India must also work actively with other countries from the non-aligned nations in the UN and other bodies to force Israel to lift the illegal siege of Gaza,' the CPI-M said in a statement.

The statement said Israeli armed forces 'illegally attacked' the flotilla in international waters Sunday night, killing at least 15 international activists and injuring many.

About 700 activists from a number of countries were on the six ships aiming to take 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid to Gaza, 'which has been under relentless siege for almost three years now'.

'The attack ... shows the complete contempt Israel has for international law or international opinion. Attacking ships in international waters and killing its passengers is a brazen act of piracy,' it said.

India urged to condemn Israeli attack on flotilla

So far this is the only news related to the indian reaction the incident. Does any one else have any thing more about the GOI's stance on the incident. 

This what Galiani had to say about it in the morning and thus far.

Gilani condemns assault by Israeli forces on aid flotilla 
ISLAMABAD, May 31 (APP): Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Monday strongly condemned assault by the Israeli Defence Forces on a Gaza-bound humanitarian aid flotilla, which has resulted in the killing of members of this humanitarian mission. The Prime Minister said that this unwarranted and unprovoked military action by Israel against a humanitarian mission constituted a flagrant violation of international law and norms and values of humanity.

Pakistan, he said expects the international community to take cognizance of this brutal act and ensure the safety and security of persons including Pakistani nationals who were on this humanitarian mission. Pakistan, he added, is in contact with all friendly states in this regard.
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency )


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## Dr.Evil

khalidali said:


> Well NYT is already mentioning that the attack will provide the Palestinians with propaganda material.



Bhai Saab totally unrelated to this thread - excuse me for that.

Why is your signature such a bad one 

*Gali Gali main shor hai zardari Kuta Choor hai!* 

Why so much disrepect to the President of pakistan. Even if you dont respect that person, you have to respect the office he occupies.


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## Marxist

*Israel: Hamas Gaza Terror Flotilla Organizers Not Humanitarian, Wanted Massacre For PR*

Israel: Hamas Gaza Terror Flotilla Organizers Not Humanitarian, Wanted Massacre for PR

i am not posting the article,this is Israels version.


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## Aslan

The below are from Al Jazeera Blog on the matter thus far. 








Turkish protesters in Istanbul wave Palestinian flags. (Photo: AFP)


Early Monday morning, Israel attacked a flotilla of aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip; at least 16 people were killed in the pre-dawn raid, according to organisers and media sources.

We'll be live-blogging the aftermath of this incident throughout the day; keep checking back for international reaction, news from our correspondents on the ground, photos and video. (All times are GMT, except where noted.)

--------

12:50pm: Careful wording from Catherine Ashton, the European Union foreign policy chief, who said she "deeply regrets the loss of life as a result of the Israeli military operation."

The EU strongly condemns any acts of violence and deplores any excessive use of force. In this regard, on behalf of the EU, the High Representative is requesting a full immediate enquiry by the Israeli authorities.
Her language is a bit hedged, similar to the brief White House statement we copied earlier: Ashton doesn't specifically call the flotilla attack an "excessive use of force."

Ashton also calls the continued "policy of closure of Gaza" unacceptable and "politically counterproductive."

12:42pm: Amnesty International just issued a statement -- its latest of many -- demanding Israel end the Gaza blockade; it also called for a full investigation into the flotilla attack.

"Israeli forces appear clearly to have used excessive force," said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty Internationals director for the Middle East and North Africa. "Israel says its forces acted in self-defence, alleging that they were attacked by protestors, but it begs credibility that the level of lethal force used by Israeli troops could have been justified. It appears to have been out of all proportion to any threat posed."
The group called on Israel to reveal the rules of engagement it issued to its commandos.

12:38pm: Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu spoke this afternoon with defence minister Ehud Barak, army chief of staff Lt Gen Gabi Ashkenazi, and several other Israeli officials, according to a statement from Netanyahu's office.

The prime minister "reiterated his full backing for the IDF."

Netanyahu is currently in Canada, where he's been traveling for the last few days. He's expected to issue a longer statement to the press this afternoon.

12:30pm: The flotilla story continues to command a lot of attention in the regional media, not just in the Arabic press, but also in Turkey.

Hurriyet, one of Turkey's largest-circulation newspapers, has basically given over its entire homepage to flotilla coverage, with several stories about the diplomatic fallout, prime minister Erdogan's reaction, protests in Istanbul and more.

11:51am: Bill Burton, a spokesman for the White House, issued a very short statement this morning from Chicago, where President Obama is spending the weekend:

The United States deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained, and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy.
The US is just waking up; I'm sure we'll see a longer White House statement today, plus further reactions from members of Congress, lobbying groups and other organizations. Remember, though, that this is a holiday weekend in the US -- today is Memorial Day -- so this story might receive less attention than it ordinarily would.

11:28am: Nabil al-Sharif, Jordan's minister of communication and media affairs, gave a statement to reporters a few minutes ago; he called the Israeli attack an "ugly, unacceptable crime."

Jordan is very concerned, and is following up on the fate of its 25 passengers aboard the flotilla, and holds Israel completely accountable and responsible for any harm caused to the Jordanians on board.
Jordan calls on the international community to take firm and immediate action to pressure Israel to lift its siege on Gaza.
A few other reactions: A spokesman for German chancellor Angela Merkel said that, at first glance, the raid does not appear "proportional," which would make it a violation of international law; Britain's foreign secretary, William Hague, said there was a "clear need for Israel to act with restraint"; South Africa condemned the attacks; and Austria's foreign ministry has summoned the Israeli ambassador.

11:18am: Lebanon's foreign minister, Ali al-Shami, said a few moments ago that his government will ask the UN Security Council to condemn the Israeli attack.


Protesters in Amman, Jordan [AFP]

Lebanon currently holds the rotating presidency of the council -- but that presidency expires at the end of May.

11:15am: The Egyptian foreign ministry has summoned Israel's ambassador to Egypt, according to Egyptian state television.

11:11am: Ban Ki-moon, the United Nations secretary-general, called for a full investigation of the flotilla attack during a press conference today in Kampala, Uganda.

It is vital that there is a full investigation to determine exactly how this bloodshed took place. I believe Israel must urgently provide a full explanation.
Other UN officials have offered harsher statements: Robert Serry, the UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, and Filippo Grandi, the commissioner-general of UNRWA, said they were "shocked" by the attack and "condemn[ed] the violence."

11:06am: Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is cutting short an official visit to Latin America to return to Turkey.

11:03am: The Palestinian Ma'an News Agency is reporting (in Arabic) clashes between "Palestinian youths" and Israeli soldiers in Jerusalem's Old City; one soldier was lightly wounded in the fighting, according to Ma'an. Shopkeepers in the Old City are reportedly closing their businesses in protest of the Israeli attack on the flotilla.

There have also been other scattered demonstrations throughout the West Bank, including one in Nablus, according to Palestinian media reports.

10:59am: Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Ashdod, just tweeted that a second boat from the flotilla is approaching the port (the first one arrived about an hour ago).

10:57am: Israel's National Security Counter-Terrorism Bureau just issued a travel warning for Turkey, warning of the threat of "violent outbreaks" against Israeli citizens traveling there.

It advises Israelis to postpone any trips to Turkey; for Israelis currently in Turkey, it recommends that they "should remain in their places of residence, avoid city centers and sites in which demonstrations are being held, and monitor developments out of concern that the situation could worsen."

10:53am: Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, the emir of Qatar, was one of the first Arab leaders to condemn the attack; he called it an "act of piracy" in a speech earlier this morning.

Before I conclude I must briefly refer to what happened this morning: The Israeli act of piracy against Arab and foreign activists, who tried to break a non-humanitarian, unjust siege imposed on our fellow citizens in the Gaza Strip, [imposed] for no reason but [that] they exercised their democratic right of choice. The crimes perpetrated this morning against the civilians supporting the Palestinians remind us of the unjust siege, the open bleeding wound in the [Gaza] Strip. All those who preach freedom, justice and democracy are required now to move, and to act to break this siege, so the blood of these free men does not go down the drain. This is a message addressed to the Arab states, who were brought to the moment of justice by those free men on board."
10:48am: The BBC is reporting that the Greek government canceled joint military exercises with Israel in protest over the attack.


Protesters in Nablus [AFP]

Turkey's deputy prime minister announced a few moments ago that Turkey, too, is canceling joint drills with Israel.

10:43am: We're still trying to track down information about today's victims (various reports now put the death toll between 16 and 20).

We do know that the majority of the people on board the ships were Turkish. The passengers also include people from Algeria, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Norway, Palestine, Serbia, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

At least three of the German passengers were members of parliament.

10:38am: The Los Angeles Times is reporting a crowd of roughly 10,000 demonstrators in Istanbul today; they marched from the Israeli consulate to Taksim Square.

Turkish media, meanwhile, are reporting that the foreign ministry recalled Turkey's ambassador to Israel.

10:32am: The Egyptian foreign ministry issued a statement condemning the flotilla attack, according to Al Jazeera's Amr El-Kahky, who sends this note from Cairo summarizing the statement.

The spokesman sent his condolences for the families of the victims. He added that such actions remind the world that Gaza is still entirely under occupation calling for the immediate lifting of the blockade. He vowed that Egypt will continue to ease the suffering of Gazans by allowing more individual passage to and from the coastal strip and making sure aid heading for Gaza is delivered to the beseiged Palestinians.
The Egyptian government temporarily opened the Rafah border crossing with Gaza earlier this month, but it generally maintains tight controls over the movement of people and goods.

Jordan's government is expected to issue a formal statement in about a half-hour.

10:10am: We're hearing from Iraq that Moqtada al-Sadr has called for a large anti-Israel rally across from the Green Zone in Baghdad. The rally is scheduled to start around 5pm local time (2pm GMT).

10:04am: Raed Salah, a senior member of the Islamic Movement in Israel, was reportedly seriously wounded during the attack, and is being treated in a hospital in Israel.

Salah's deputy, Sheikh Kamel Khatib, told an Israeli radio station that Israel would be "directly responsible" if Salah was killed.

9:53am: More international condemnation continues to roll in:

Pakistan's foreign ministry issued a statement that "strongly condemns the use of brazen force by Israel."

The Jordanian foreign ministry has summoned the Israeli charge d'affaires, the ranking official at the Israeli embassy in Amman.

Saeb Erekat, the chief negotiator from the Palestinian Authority, called the Israeli attack "a war crime."

9:14am: The Stop the War Coalition and several other organisations are planning a rally this afternoon at 2pm local time (1pm GMT) outside the UK prime minister's residence.

8:59am: I just spoke with Greta Berlin, one of the flotilla's organisers, who said her organisation (the Free Gaza Movement) has had no contact with the passengers and crew on board the ships since they were attacked.

Berlin also strongly rejected the Israel's claim that the activists were the first ones to start shooting. She said there were no weapons on board the boats, and that any violence from the activists would have been in self-defense:

People certainly have the right to resist if they're being attacked. We taught our Free Gaza Movement people to be non-violent, and the Turks did the same, but if anyone resisted, it was in response to soldiers opening fire on them when they hit the deck.
Berlin also said organisers are still hoping to launch a second flotilla of boats, most of which remain at port in Cyprus.

We need to find out where the passengers are, where the crews are... and then we need to assess - we split up our flotilla, we have a second set of boats.
But Berlin said she didn't know when that second launch would happen; she expects it will be several days until everyone on board the first flotilla is accounted for.

8:43am: A statement from Saad Hariri, the Lebanese prime minister, who called the attack "dangerous and crazy":

The Israeli attack on the aid convoy is a dangerous and crazy step that will exacerbate tensions in the region.
Lebanon firmly denounces this attack and calls on the international community, notably major powers... to take action in order to end this continued violation of human rights and threat to international peace.
8:31am: Spain's foreign ministry has also summoned the Israeli ambassador for questioning. And Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, described himself as "profoundly shocked" over the attack.

8:24am: An observation: We've heard a lot from the Israeli army, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, the European Union, and a number of other governments.

The one party we haven't heard from in the last few hours is the organisers of the flotilla. Obviously it's impossible to reach those activists who were on board; and I haven't been able to reach their on-shore counterparts. The group's Web site hasn't been updated in the last few hours.

8:17am: This video, a report from Iran's state-run English-language Press TV network, shows a large crowd of protesters gathered outside the Israeli consulate in Istanbul this morning.

Aftermath of Israel&#039;s attack on Gaza flotilla | Al Jazeera Blogs


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## Aslan

*The criticism offered a propaganda coup to Israels foes, particularly the Hamas group that holds sway in Gaza, and damaged its ties to *

The above 2 lines sums up the attitude of the US media. 

NY Times Advertisement


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## Durran3

Marxist said:


> *Israel: Hamas Gaza Terror Flotilla Organizers Not Humanitarian, Wanted Massacre For PR*
> 
> Israel: Hamas Gaza Terror Flotilla Organizers Not Humanitarian, Wanted Massacre for PR
> 
> i am not posting the article,this is Israels version.



That's the height of Bullshit Israel will now go to defend itself. Absolutely ridiculous

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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> Bhai Saab totally unrelated to this thread - excuse me for that.
> 
> Why is your signature such a bad one
> 
> *Gali Gali main shor hai zardari Kuta Choor hai!*
> 
> Why so much disrepect to the President of pakistan. Even if you dont respect that person, you have to respect the office he occupies.



I am exercising my political right, my freedom that was achieved for me by my forefathers. Just if you put a donkey on the presidency that dont make him a human, he will still be a donkey. I respect the position he occupies, but I dont respect the person that is occupying it.


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## alibaz

Dr.Evil said:


> Bhai Saab totally unrelated to this thread - excuse me for that.
> 
> Why is your signature such a bad one
> 
> *Gali Gali main shor hai zardari Kuta Choor hai!*
> 
> Why so much disrepect to the President of pakistan. Even if you dont respect that person, you have to respect the office he occupies.



Wake up come out of


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## Bhim

Sure and gradual realignment of forces.


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## Ahmad

prodevelopment said:


> This is where we disagree sir. If their prime motive was bringing aid, their methods could have been very different. They could have tried to pass the aid through Egypt. Instead, they chose the water route. Plus they chose to bring along huge amounts of media rather than aid workers.
> 
> Their motive was media attention, and now, unfortunately, they have it.



what motive you are talking about? the israelis have blocked everything to gaza, look at this report that clinton criticized israel for their failings to let aid to palestininas, and we all know that americans are always hisitant to condemn israel no matter what crime they commit, if clinton is raising her voice in this issue, then there must be something horrible about israelis not allowing the aid to gaza:



Clinton warns Israel over delays in Gaza aid
U.S. accused Israel of 'not making enough effort to improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza.'

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has relayed messages to Israel in the past week expressing anger at obstacles Israel is placing to the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. A leading political source in Jerusalem noted that senior Clinton aides have made it clear that the matter will be central to Clinton's planned visit to Israel next Tuesday.

Ahead of Clinton's visit, special U.S. envoy to the Middle East George Mitchell is expected to issue a sharply worded protest on the same matter when he arrives here Thursday.

"Israel is not making enough effort to improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza," senior U.S. officials told Israeli counterparts last week, and reiterated Washington's view by saying that "the U.S. expects Israel to meet its commitments on this matter."


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## Ahmad

israel even decide on what the Gazans eat and not to eat, for example they will not be allowed to eat pasta. such a shame, most of all shame to american administration with their hypocracy.

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## Aslan

Bhim said:


> Sure and gradual realignment of forces.



Well that was bound to happen the way the events are playing themselves something is going to happen sooner rather then latter. And I dont know about india, but Pakistan will be forced to pick sides very soon. Whether we would like to or not its another argument. There will be more and more blocks in the region and world wide.


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## T-Faz

*Look at protesters in Israel being persecuted*





So these are the terrorists and extremists. ******* shame that no one stand up for this.

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## qaisar52

I have a sad news that Mr Talat Hussain also has been wounded

Source Al Arabia news and Mustaqbil news from Lebanon.


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## Ahmad

i am following this news in the UK papers online, salute to the british pulic for their sympathy to the people who tried to take aid to gaza, their comments are great, unlike the uk gov who is disgustingly supportng the killers.

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## harrymohan




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## T-Faz

Some of the americans onboard.

*Hedy Epstein, 85 year old Holocaust survivor

David Schermerhorn, 80, commercial filmmaker

Cynthia McKinney, former US congresswoman and Green Party VP candidate

Adam Shapiro, documentary filmmaker

Katherine Elliott Sheez, registered nurse and aid worker

Gene St Onge, civil and structural engineer

Janet Kobren, retired teacher

Paul Larudee, piano tuner

Joe Meadors, President of USS Liberty Veterans Association and former US 
Navy Signalman

Greta Berlin, teacher.*

Please tone down Anti-Semitism, as this clearly shows that this is an *Israeli act of aggression and not Jewish.*

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## Meengla

Ahmad said:


> i am following this news in the UK papers online, salute to the british pulic for their sympathy to the people who tried to take aid to gaza, their comments are great, *unlike the uk gov who is disgustingly supportng the killers*.



This dichotomy of public expression versus official posture is common in America too. As I indicated above, I was initially shocked to see the pro-Palestinian 'Comments' in NY Times in articles related to the Middle East. 

The internet is a great game changer! This is despite the supposed thousands of very organized Israeli bloggers who are supposed to use a software called 'Megaphone' to try to influence public discourse in Israel's favor by using various 'detection' tools in current news articles.

Peace to all. This is not a war about or for any religion. This is a struggle against colonialism--a struggle Israelis are desperately trying to turn into an 'Us against them', with 'Us' means the 'West'. Complete BS.


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## happy.muslimah

look at this again cowardly attack of israel they ae killing innocent ohh God...Allah has already said in Quran that these Jews will never be urs Frnd..
i hate israel


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## Realist

happy.muslimah said:


> look at this again cowardly attack of israel they ae killing innocent ohh God...Allah has already said in Quran that these Jews will never be urs Frnd..
> i hate israel



Calm down. This is NOT a jew vs muslim thing. There were jews on that convoy, amongst them a holocaust survivor. Do not put religion into this.

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## Ahmad

i am following some of the US media and they are mostly in disgust with what happend.


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## Evil Flare

qaisar52 said:


> I have a sad news that Mr Talat Hussain also has been wounded
> 
> Source Al Arabia news and Mustaqbil news from Lebanon.




Oh God ...


Pray for him ....


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## alibaz

T-Faz said:


> Some of the americans onboard.
> 
> *Hedy Epstein, 85 year old Holocaust survivor
> 
> David Schermerhorn, 80, commercial filmmaker
> 
> Cynthia McKinney, former US congresswoman and Green Party VP candidate
> 
> Adam Shapiro, documentary filmmaker
> 
> Katherine Elliott Sheez, registered nurse and aid worker
> 
> Gene St Onge, civil and structural engineer
> 
> Janet Kobren, retired teacher
> 
> Paul Larudee, piano tuner
> 
> Joe Meadors, President of USS Liberty Veterans Association and former US
> Navy Signalman
> 
> Greta Berlin, teacher.*
> 
> Please tone down Anti-Semitism, as this clearly shows that this is an *Israeli act of aggression and not Jewish.*



Still people are trying to justify Israeli act. I think some humanity still exists


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## Meengla

Realist said:


> Calm down. This is NOT a jew vs muslim thing. There were jews on that convoy, amongst them a holocaust survivor. Do not put religion into this.



Words stolen from my mouth!

Well said. Let's not fall into this trap. Had it not been some prominent Jews like Chomsky, Finkelstein the Palestinian plight would have been even less reported.

I also urge people to pull back from the religious rhetoric. Pakistan has enough of these fundos and we do not want to feed them anymore. Heck, as someone pointed out above, I would be glad if all these religious fundos are bundled up from Pakistan, India and Afghanistan AND America to go to the Israeli Settlements in the Palestine and duke it out. Leave the rest of the humanity alone!


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## T-Faz

*No Anti-Semitic remarks here, be respectful because many jews are on the convoy too*

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## Comet

If, God forbid, any thing happened to Mr. Talat, there will be massive public demonstrations in Pakistan.


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## Ahmad

Meengla said:


> This dichotomy of public expression versus official posture is common in America too. As I indicated above, I was initially shocked to see the pro-Palestinian 'Comments' in NY Times in articles related to the Middle East.
> 
> The internet is a great game changer! This is despite the supposed thousands of very organized Israeli bloggers who are supposed to use a software called 'Megaphone' to try to influence public discourse in Israel's favor by using various 'detection' tools in current news articles.
> 
> Peace to all. This is not a war about or for any religion. This is a struggle against colonialism--a struggle Israelis are desperately trying to turn into an 'Us against them', with 'Us' means the 'West'. Complete BS.



i checked some of the sites myself, a completely different version of what the administartion do.


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

*"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'*​
(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is *DAJJAL* or the FALSE MESSIAH... 

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule... 

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , *DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH*.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the *SUPER POWER* .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now.. 

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that *WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL*.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal

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## Ahmad

i suggest the admins to remove any racial attacks on the jews from this thread.


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## pak-marine

every single person on this planet know the Israelis and their dirty tactics. last 60 years are full of their atrocities one incident after another ...... Now this masacare unarmed aid team. 

Bigger question is what difference will it make ? will the world keep blind eye and ignore all their actions? I guess so!


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## Realist

Rameez...






Must you hijack every thread?

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## alibaz

Realist said:


> Calm down. This is NOT a jew vs muslim thing. There were jews on that convoy, amongst them a holocaust survivor. Do not put religion into this.



You are right and the victims too are not only Muslims, there are significant number of Christians in Palestinian population


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## abiab

got this on twitter 

_Good news:Flotilla's Pakistan team-Talat Hussain/his boys, Khubaib Foundation chief Nadeem & his Turkish wife all safe & sound_


waiting for confirmation........


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## T-Faz

*Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159)

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)

Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (Quran 3:113-114)

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran 3:199)
*

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## FreekiN

Man, this makes me so mad. I didn't think they would sink so low and do something like this, but they did! 

And again, as always there will be no punishment for Israel. 

I bet they will come up and say something stupid like "OH THEY HAD WEAPONS AND STUFF".


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## T-Faz

Please do not post selective quotes from the Holy Quran to make us all look bad. There context is different when you consider them in totality with other quotes.

Do not make this into a religious debate. We are only debating the actions of Israel and nothing else.


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## rameez ahmed

Meengla said:


> Words stolen from my mouth!
> 
> Well said. Let's not fall into this trap. Had it not been some prominent Jews like Chomsky, Finkelstein the Palestinian plight would have been even less reported.
> 
> I also urge people to pull back from the religious rhetoric. Pakistan has enough of these fundos and we do not want to feed them anymore. Heck, as someone pointed out above, I would be glad if all these religious fundos are bundled up from Pakistan, India and Afghanistan AND America to go to the Israeli Settlements in the Palestine and duke it out. Leave the rest of the humanity alone!



brother if you think that way then think .. it doesn't make any difference for us.. 

Whether the Jews were killed or muslims.... They were going to help the Palestinians who are being killed and injured by Israeli terrorists.... For me Israel stopped the aid the was going to Palestine.. So religion is 100 % included in this Pathetic Israeli act....


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


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## Bang Galore

Unfortunately many members here have chosen to deliberately misconstrue the posts by Indians and hold it up as somehow being supportive of Israeli actions.Speaking for myself, I have no doubt that Israel is primarily responsible for what happened today. I do however have some questions on the risks the organisers were prepared to take to make their point and the way in which they attempted to do so.



Jigs said:


> *Most people knew including the people on the convoy would be blocked.* The issue isn't this it is the fact that the Israeli military not only blocked the convoy but killed people on it. This isn't going to go well with Turkey at all.



The miscalculation seems to be about the severity of the response not that there would be a response. They had no chance whatsoever of unloading that ship in Gaza & the organisers probably knew that. They were probably hoping for a stand off which could serve to highlight the conditions in Gaza and bring attention to the humanitarian suffering there.

For Israel, this event has been a disaster. Other than further damaging its relationship with Turkey, it has put Egypt which was helping to enforce the blockade on Hamas in a very difficult position. It has also made the position of Israel's Palestinian interlocutors untenable and probably increased support for Hamas, which surely was not Israel's intention when it sought to board the ship.

_One other point:_ I have never understood or supported Israel's handling of the Palestinian issue. Here is a case of people who were subjected to untold suffering for hundreds of years in turn subjecting another people to similar suffering. The attack on Gaza and the blockade against the people there was both inhuman & degrading. Israel cannot & should not be allowed to punish a whole people because Hamas controls the Gaza strip.

The greatest sadness with the Palestinian Israeli conflict is that everyone knows and agrees with how the final settlement of the issue would look like. An independent state of Palestine with Israel vacating its settlements in the West Bank and some mechanism to make Jerusalem a joint capital for both states. Israel will not allow for the return of Palestinians into Israel proper so some method of compensating monetarily the refugees will have to be found. 

The present Israeli governments position on peace talks has been particularly cussed. Most Indians I know are as unenthusiastic of Israelis claiming that God gave them the land as we are about claims because of religion on our territory. Our relationship with Israel and our respect for what they have achieved in that harsh land does not blind us to their atrocities or to the suffering of the Palestinians. Our support for the Palestinian cause does not and cannot come because of shared religious sensibilities. We therefore make distinctions that some of you are blinded to because of your own religious affiliations. We have no hatred for the Jews and the Jews have never played a negative role in our history;religious or otherwise. We however share a more general view with the rest of the world about the plight of Palestinians; we need no certificate from anyone on that score.

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## Ahmad

pak-marine said:


> every single person on this planet know the Israelis and their dirty tactics. last 60 years are full of their atrocities one incident after another ...... Now this masacare unarmed aid team.
> 
> Bigger question is what difference will it make ? will the world keep blind eye and ignore all their actions? I guess so!



Yes, everybody knows everyting and yet nothing happens. the zioinists simnply control america, they control american economy, they control their media, politicas and you name it. american administrations wont have balls to say or do anything about it, lets pray for the fall of america so that the israelis wont be able to use it for its own purpose.


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## alibaz

abiab said:


> got this on twitter
> 
> _Good news:Flotilla's Pakistan team-Talat Hussain/his boys, Khubaib Foundation chief Nadeem & his Turkish wife all safe & sound_
> 
> 
> waiting for confirmation........



Surly good news, if confirmed


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## monitor

Ahmad said:


> i am following some of the US media and they are mostly in disgust with what happend.



what they can say about it ? allmost every western media are either own by the jew or control by the jews people so they are not going to tell they real story behind this carnage .

what isreal does today clearly shows their arrogant and brutal mentality .they realy does not care about the basic international lawand surly unless until the us contain their activity and public opinion rise in us to press their govt to rethink their relation and with israel i dont think this things will end any time soon.


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## rameez ahmed

T-Faz said:


> Please do not post selective quotes from the Holy Quran to make us all look bad. There context is different when you consider them in totality with other quotes.
> 
> Do not make this into a religious debate. We are only debating the actions of Israel and nothing else.



Brother Religion is definitley included in this .. you can't separate that.... The holy Prophet (SA) have said that " time and time again, you will find that your bitterest enemy will be the JEWS"

i don't remember the book of Hadith where it is stated but this hadith is true....

They are the bitterest enemy of Muslims. Although they kill jews in this incident but in the Broader picture *they stopped the aid that that was going to the Palestinians*

So indirectly they have again tried to weaken the Palestinians... Religion is definitely there in this Pathetic act of Israel...


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## T-Faz

Many of the people will prosecuted for apparently attacking the Israeli Commandos on International waters.


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## rameez ahmed

monitor said:


> what they can say about it ? allmost every western media are either own by the jew or control by the jews people so they are not going to tell they real story behind this carnage .
> 
> what isreal does today clearly shows their arrogant and brutal mentality .they realy does not care about the basic international lawand surly unless until the us contain their activity and public opinion rise in us to press their govt to rethink their relation and with israel i dont think this things will end any time soon.



WELL SAID......................


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## Ahmad

monitor said:


> what they can say about it ? allmost every western media are either own by the jew or control by the jews people so they are not going to tell they real story behind this carnage .
> 
> what isreal does today clearly shows their arrogant and brutal mentality .they realy does not care about the basic international lawand surly unless until the us contain their activity and public opinion rise in us to press their govt to rethink their relation and with israel i dont think this things will end any time soon.



i was talking about the ordinary people like you and me who put their comments on the websites.


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## T-Faz

*Syria, Lebanon say flotilla attack can lead to war*



> Syrian President Bashar alAssad and Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri said on Monday that Israels attack on a flotilla of aid bound for Gaza threatens to ignite a war in the region.
> 
> Syria and Lebanon condemn the heinous crime committed by Israel through the brutal attacks on unarmed civilians on board the Freedom Flotilla, both leaders said in a joint statement, after a pre planned meeting in Damascus.
> 
> They have warned that Israels violations of basic humanitarian norms and international laws threatens to plunge the Middle East into a war which will not only affect the region. Israels navy on Monday stormed the flotilla, made up of six boats carrying some 700 proPalestinian activists and 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid bound for the Gaza Strip. At least 10 died as a result of the raid.
> 
> Meanwhile, hundreds of Lebanese, Palestinians and followers of the Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah, demonstrated in front the UN headquarters in Beirut.
> 
> This is a crime against humanity, read one banner carried by the protestors, who chanted antiIsrael slogans. They handed a letter of condemnation of the event to UN spokesman in Beirut, Bahaa al Kossi.
> 
> A crazy move
> 
> Earlier, Lebanons Prime Minister Saad Hariri said the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was dangerous and a crazy move, which would inflame the region.
> 
> The premier called on the international community to take action and said Lebanon was in contact with a number of countries to coordinate responses to the incident.
> 
> Reports in Beirut said the head of the Lebanese mission to the Freedom Flotilla Hani Suleiman, had been wounded in the attack.
> 
> Hezbollah lawmaker Hassan Fadlallah described the attack as a premeditated crime against humanity by the Israelis. At their meeting, alAssad and Hariri also demanded the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic Conference, the Security Council and the international community to act immediately and put an end to Israels actions.
> 
> The two officials also discussed the outcome of Mr. Hariris recent trip to Washington and his talks with US President Barack Obama as well as his meeting with UN SecretaryGeneral Ban Kimoon in New York last week.
> 
> A source in the Lebanese government had said earlier that discussing threats by some Israeli cabinet ministers over comments by Mr. Hariri that Arabs have the right to use all means to remain on lands occupied by Israel was on their agenda.
> 
> On Saturday, Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said the Lebanese government and its prime minister will pay a heavy price in case of a new war with Hezbollah.
> 
> According to a source close to the premier, Mr. Hariris trip to Damascus comes as part of an Arab tour that is to include Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan.



The Hindu : News / International : Syria, Lebanon say flotilla attack can lead to war


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## Mani2020

This is pathetic man, completely inhuman act rather worst than animals , now who is terrorist? where is there master n why she is not taking action on this ? The people who tag others as terrorist are biggest terrorist themselves , Israel did this coz they know they have uncle sam their master to once again cover them and take them out of trouble

And more sadly tens of muslim country's most of them are rich resource countries with big economies cant do anything for poor Palestinians who are being killed routinely its a blood game for israel,

All muslim country's cant handle a single small bullshit country Israel this is really bullshit, i think we should now have shemales as our presidents and prime ministers, and need to throw away so called military mights


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2113563453256462293#

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## Meengla

@Bang Galore,
Mostly good comments.
However, I find a disproportionate number of Indian bloggers sympathetic to Israel or at least trying to present this latest fiasco has 'equal-equal' part.

I also think your insinuation about we Pakistanis supporting Palestinians based on shared-religion only partly true. Posters like me, @Durrani, @Sparkle etc are quite clear in mentioning the Palestinians issues as a humanitarian issue and we are also watchful that the fundos in Pakistan do not get too much 'mileage' out of this latest one.

Anyway, while the Israeli powerful media teams and their bloggers--little doubt prepared for the cyber-onslaught for this fiasco--are in full-swing what has been done is catestrophic for Israel's image. It would be wise for Indian bloggers to read up on the world opinion about it.

As to your question about the risk the Flotilla was talking, well, at least I have maintained from my very first post that it was for media-attention as well as for giving any 'aid'. And I don't think getting media attention in the name of giving 'aid' is a bad thing at all: They were unarmed and shoudl have been let through after inspection if smuggling of weapons was the concerned.

But Israelis are DRUNK with power. The power of a booming economy. The power of the backing of the sole Superpower and most Western countries. The power of being in charge of media. The power which a sense of perpetual-victimhood can arise over decades. 

And IF Turkey decides to escort the next Flotilla then Israel's power will be, for the first time since 1948, matched by another power. I don't want that to happen because that can lead to the 3rd World War.

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## T-Faz

*Israeli prime minister cancels White House meeting*



> JERUSALEM &#8211; Israel's prime minister has called off a planned visit to the White House to deal with a crisis over a botched naval raid that killed 10 pro-Palestinian activists.
> 
> Netanyahu, who is in Canada, was set to travel to Washington to meet with President Barack Obama on Tuesday. But his office says he decided to return home early after Monday's commando raid.
> 
> The commandos intercepted a flotilla of activists trying to deliver aid to the Gaza Strip. The deadly crackdown has drawn widespread international condemnations.
> 
> THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
> 
> JERUSALEM (AP) &#8212; Israeli naval commandos stormed a flotilla of ships carrying aid and hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists to the blockaded Gaza Strip on Monday, killing at least 10 passengers in a predawn raid that set off worldwide condemnation and a diplomatic crisis.
> 
> Israel said its commandos were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers after they rappelled from a helicopter to board one of the vessels.
> 
> Dozens of activists and at least 10 Israeli soldiers were wounded in the bloody confrontation in international waters.
> 
> Reaction was swift and harsh, with a massive protest breaking out in Turkey, Israel's longtime Muslim ally, which unofficially supported the mission. Ankara announced it would recall its ambassador and call off military exercises with the Jewish state.
> 
> The bloody showdown came at a sensitive time in Israeli-Palestinian peace efforts. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was to meet Tuesday with President Barack Obama to discuss the next round in U.S.-led indirect negotiations. From Toronto, Netanyahu spoke by telephone with top Israeli officials and expressed his "full backing" for the military, according to a statement from the army.
> 
> The White House said in a written statement that the United States "deeply regrets" the loss of life and injuries and was working to understand the circumstances surrounding this "tragedy."
> 
> The activists were headed to Gaza on a mission meant to draw attention to the blockade, which Israel and Egypt imposed after the militant Hamas group seized the territory of 1.5 million Palestinians in 2007.
> 
> There were conflicting accounts of what happened early Monday, with activists claiming the Israelis fired first and Israel insisting its forces fired in self defense. Communications to the ships were cut off shortly after the raid began.
> An Israeli commando who spoke to reporters on a naval vessel off the coast, and who was identified only by the first letter of his name, "A," said he and his comrades were surprised by a group of Arabic-speaking men when they rapelled onto the deck.
> 
> He said some of the soldiers, taken off guard, were stripped of their helmets and equipment and thrown from the top deck to the lower deck, and that some had even jumped overboard to save themselves. At one point one of the passengers seized one of the soldiers' weapons and opened fire.
> 
> A high-ranking naval official displayed a box confiscated from the boat containing switchblades, slingshots, metal balls and metal bats. "We prepared (the soldiers) to deal with peace activists, not to fight," he said. Most of the 10 dead were Turkish, he added.
> 
> 
> A Turkish website showed video of pandemonium on board one of the ships, with activists in orange life jackets running around as some tried to help an activist apparently unconscious on the deck. The site also showed video of an Israeli helicopter flying overhead and Israeli warships nearby.
> 
> Turkey's NTV showed activists beating one Israeli soldier with sticks as he rappelled from a helicopter onto one of the boats.
> 
> Activists said Israeli naval commandos stormed the ships after ordering them to stop in international waters, about 80 miles (130 kilometers) from Gaza's coast.
> 
> An Al-Jazeera reporter on one of the Turkish ships said the Israelis fired at the vessel before boarding it. The pan-Arab satellite channel reported by telephone from the Turkish ship leading the flotilla that Israeli navy forces fired at the ship and boarded it, wounding the captain.
> 
> "These savages are killing people here, please help," a Turkish television reporter said.
> 
> The broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!"
> In a news conference in Tel Aviv, Israel's military chief of staff and navy commander said the troops were able to take over the five other boats without incident and all of the violence was centered on the boat carrying most of the flotilla's passengers, the Turkish-owned Mavi Marmara.
> 
> Troops were attacked, said Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, and an unspecified number of troops were helicoptered to hospital suffering from gunshots, knife wounds and blows.
> 
> "To me it is clear without a doubt, judging by what I saw and what I heard in the first reports from the soldiers, that in light of the danger to human life this violence required the use of weapons, and in my opinion the soldiers acted as they should have in this situation," Ashkenazi said.
> 
> Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak expressed regret for the loss of life, but called IHH, a Turkish group organizing the sea convoy, a violent organization "operating under cover of humanitarian activity."
> 
> The ships were being towed to the Israeli port of Ashdod, and wounded were evacuated by helicopter to Israeli hospitals, officials said. Two ships had reached port by midday.
> 
> Many of the passengers were from European countries.
> 
> The European Union deplored what it called excessive use of force and demanded an investigation by Israel. The EU said the blockade of Gaza, now in its fourth year, is "politically unacceptable," and called for an immediate, sustained opening of crossings into the Hamas-controlled territory, according to a statement by EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
> Turkey called on the U.N. Security Council to convene in an emergency session about Israel.
> 
> Thousands marched in protest in Istanbul, some setting Israeli flags on fire after trying to storm the Israeli consulate. Israel quickly advised to its citizens to avoid travel to Turkey. In neighboring Jordan, hundreds demonstrated in the capital Amman to protest the Israeli action and demand that their government breaks diplomatic relations with the Jewish state.
> Israeli security forces were on alert across the country for possible protests.
> There were no details on the identities of the casualties, or on the conditions of some of the more prominent people on board, including 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, 85.
> 
> Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the Israeli "aggression," declared three days of mourning across the West Bank and called on the U.N. Security Council and Arab League to hold emergency sessions on the incident.
> Ismail Haniyeh, leader of the rival Hamas government in Gaza, condemned the "brutal" Israeli attack and called on U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to intervene.
> 
> In Uganda, Ban condemned the deaths of the activists and called for a "thorough" investigation. "Israel must provide an explanation," he said.
> The activists were headed to Gaza on a mission meant to draw attention to a 3-year-old Israeli blockade of the coastal territory. Israel and Egypt imposed the blockade after Hamas, which it considers a terrorist group, violently seized the territory. Critics say the blockade has unfairly hurt Gaza's 1.5 million people.
> 
> Before the ships set sail from waters off the east Mediterranean island of Cyprus on Sunday, Israel had urged the flotilla not to try to breach the blockade and offered to transfer some of the cargo to Gaza from an Israeli port, following a security inspection.
> 
> The violent takeover threatened to deal yet another blow to Israel's international image, already tarnished by war crimes accusations in Gaza and its blockade of the impoverished Palestinian territory.
> 
> Organizers included people affiliated with the International Solidarity Movement, a pro-Palestinian group that often sends international activists into battle zones, and the IHH.
> 
> The Turkish group is an Islamic humanitarian group that is based in Istanbul but operates in several other countries. Israel recently arrested the IHH's West Bank operative, but said his arrest was not related to the planned aid mission.
> Hasan Naiboglu, the Turkish maritime affairs undersecretary, told the Anatolia news agency that Israel had jammed communications with the ships. He accused Israel of violating international law by carrying out the raid in international waters.
> 
> Turkey had unofficially supported the aid mission and has been vocally critical of Israeli military operations against Palestinians in Gaza.
> 
> The flotilla of three cargo ships and three passenger ships carrying 10,000 tons of aid and 700 activists was carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials.
> 
> This is the ninth time that the Free Gaza movement has tried to ship in humanitarian aid to Gaza since August 2008.
> 
> Israel has allowed ships through five times, but has blocked them from entering Gaza waters since a three-week military offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers in January 2009.
> 
> The latest flotilla was the largest to date.



Israeli prime minister cancels White House meeting - Yahoo! News


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## T-Faz

*Video of Israeli forces firing on the ship and the innocents running away, it start half way through.*

Watch Press Tv Live | Presss Tv Online | Press Tv Live Stream Free


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## Barrett

SHAME ON YOU ISRAEL.

Cowards all you can do is attack innocent unarmed civilians, I can't wait to hear from the pro-Israeli members on this forum who will still justify the acts of these godless, satan worshipers.


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


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## T-Faz

*Something bad is going to happen, I have a very bad feeling, The korea situation, Pakistan moving into NW and now this.*


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## Barrett

Change the Topic to 

*Jewish Terrorists kill civilians.*

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## fallstuff

The ill fated Turkish ship.


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## ek_indian

RIP to all dead.

I support Turkey in this regard. I guess almost every Indian does. Those who say, we Indians are supporting Israel, are not getting the idea. As one thinkthink said, it is share of 9.8 on Israel and 0.2 on the other side. But Israel should and could have avoided this situation. The fault lies on them and he should get what is deserved.
Also I am particularly unhappy abour Mr. Rameez comments. Of all other's rants, his are most offensive and controversial. I demand/request them to be removed.

Just curious, what are the responses from Russia, China, SE nations etc.

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## kimmo love

it well hepin he heve to redy for that


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## Canaan

why on earth were the israeli boarding teams armed with silenced UZIs?

My thoughts go to those killed by these nazi murderes and those injured too...


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## Meengla

YouTube - Israel starts World War 3? - gunships, IDF attack Freedom Flotilla to Gaza Strip 16 Dead, 50 Wounded!

Is there censorship going on in YouTube? The 'views' are stuck at 302.


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60&#37; of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2113563453256462293#

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## SQ8

Pakistani's on board ship captured by Israel. Government Begs US to bring them back.

Unlike the Israeli's, No government of a Muslim state has the balls to organize something like Entebbe to get their people back( Although I realize how absolutely idiotic and unrealistic it may be). One would expect a stronger statement from the FM instead of "please get our people back, we promise they wont be naughty again".

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## Evil Flare

Meengla said:


> YouTube - Israel starts World War 3? - gunships, IDF attack Freedom Flotilla to Gaza Strip 16 Dead, 50 Wounded!
> 
> Is there censorship going on in YouTube? The 'views' are stuck at 302.




yes

Videos are Deleting .. Comments are not Updating .. & thats called freedom of expression


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## irfan wazir

pakistani ajj tv group is also on ship they cant contact her n not know that pakistani team is also safe or not but where is pakistani govt they give any reaction or not


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## P.kid

Aamir Zia said:


> yes
> 
> Videos are Deleting .. Comments are not Updating .. & thats called freedom of expression



Youtube should really be called Jewtube. When somthing against islam/muslim country is uploaded they don giv a sh1t and don censor it. wen its against israel they remove it or censor.


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## rameez ahmed

P.kid said:


> Youtube should really be called Jewtube. When somthing against islam/muslim country is uploaded they don giv a sh1t and don censor it. wen its against israel they remove it or censor.



This happens at many other places.. Yahoo news also hides comments that are anti-jewish....


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## Xeric

xdrive said:


> Yes. The aid boats ran the Israeli Navy blockcade and then when the soldiers boarded the boat, the aid workers tried to push the soldiers over board so they could get to the shore.
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinian waters are controlled by israel. So you have to have permission to enter the waters. The turkish aid workers didn't get permission and they ran the navy blockade.
> 
> Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.





Unfortunately we still have people like you who advocate the blockade to be legitimate and are finding justifications to an international crime.


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## Mujahid




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## Xeric

xdrive said:


> Excuse me? Your directing at that me.
> 
> I am just stating the facts.
> 
> I DID NOT say what the Israelis are doing is right.
> 
> Once again, i am just stating the facts.


Even the UN said something logical this time, but then there isnt shortage of sadists:

Israel Boat Raid Sparks International Outcry
U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned the violence, saying, "I am shocked by reports of killing of people in boats carrying supply to Gaza. I heard the ships were in international water. That is very bad."


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## mjnaushad

Israel attacked ship which had Turkish flags. It was attacked in international waters. So even if someone on the ship retaliated with knifes they defended themselves. Because they were not the attackers but just trying to defend themselves as they were attacked.
As Turkey is member of NATO its time to see how "allies" of Turkey will response to this situation. As attack on NATO country is attack on NATO itself (Just like 9/11).


Its sad some idiots trying to say "if Pakistan enter Kashmir blah blah blah" and comparing This situation with Pakistan India. Kashmir is a disputed territory but this act of terrorism by israel happend in international waters. Clear act of war.

Its also sad some are saying that "they had it coming" so its defend-able. If tomorrow Pakistan Nuke India or India Nuke Pakistan or China and then say "they had it coming" will that be justifiable. Just a cheap attempt to defend a terrorist act of Israel.

I really condemn this act of terrorism and wish all survivors from this terrorist act reach home safely. I feel bad for palestinians that what we saw today on TV they experience it almost everyday. I hope UN will take action or atleast Turkey will. But the reality is not how I hope. US will get his adopted son out of this. You cant take action in UN. NATO wont do anything. Arabs are weak. Turkey cant go alone against Israel with US on opposite side. 

So.....

RIP the dead. Thanks to the perfect world. The massacre and holocaust of Palestine will continue. and we all will be only able to watch and condemn but wont be able to do anything more than that.



And please pray for all and specially Talat Hussain and Aaj Team and Pakistani NGO workers.

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## fawwaxs

*Up to 19 dead as Israel storms Gaza aid ships *

ASHDOD, Israel: Israeli naval forces stormed a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in international waters before dawn on Monday, killing up to 19 pro-Palestinian activists, most of them reportedly Turkish nationals.

The bloody ending to the high-profile mission to deliver supplies to the besieged Gaza Strip plunged Israel into a diplomatic crisis on the eve of talks between President Barack Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

As Israel pointed the finger of blame at passengers for initiating the violence, accusing them of using deadly force, activists from the ships countered with their own descriptions of how events unfolded in raid which took place in international waters at around 5:00 am.

Live footage taken from the Turkish passenger boat, which was posted all over the Internet, showed black-clad Israeli commandos rappelling down from helicopters and clashing with activists, as well as several wounded people lying on the deck of the ship.

Under darkness of night, Israeli commandos dropped from a helicopter onto the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began to shoot the moment their feet hit the deck, according to a report on the website of the Free Gaza Movement.

The shaky footage shows scenes of chaos, with the dark profiles of Israel missile boats looming in the background.

Senior Pakistani journalist Talat Hussain, another Pakistani journalist Agha Raza and a Pakistani NGO worker were also on board one of the ships. So far, they had not made contact.

The Israeli army insisted its troops opened fire only after they were attacked with knives, clubs and even live fire.

As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, including live fire, an army statement said, adding that it appeared as if the passengers were planning to lynch the forces.

Israel had a blunt response to the bloodshed, pinning the blame squarely on the activists.

They initiated the violence, Netanyahu's spokesman Mark Regev told AFP.

We made every possible effort to avoid this incident.

Unfortunately they were attacked with deadly force by the people on the boats  with iron bars, knives and live fire.

Israel's Channel 10 TV said 19 passengers were killed and 36 wounded in the raid.

The army confirmed more than 10 people had died in the operation and said between 15 and 30 passengers were wounded.

Five naval commandos were also wounded, two of whom were said to be severely injured, while another three were in moderate condition.

A Turkish charity involved with the flotilla claimed at least 15 people were killed, most of them Turkish nationals.

As details of the bloody confrontation emerged, an Israeli military boat could be seen escorting a large white boat and a smaller yacht-type craft into the southern Israeli port of Ashdod, an AFP correspondent said.

Black-clad naval officers could be seen on the deck of the larger boat which appeared to be a passenger vessel, he said.

Media reports also said that senior Arab Israeli leader Raed Salah had been injured in the clashes.

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas slammed the navy raid as a massacre and announced a three-day mourning period.

We will have to take some difficult decisions this evening, an official from his office told Palestinian television, without giving further details.

The Palestinian Authority also called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss the piracy, the crime and the Israeli massacre, said top negotiator Saeb Erakat.

Israel's Arab community called a general strike in response to an Israeli naval operation and called for protests across the country.

In response, hundreds from across the political spectrum flooded onto the streets of the northern Arab Israeli city of Nazareth to protest against the bloody attack.

Hamas reacted angrily to the raid.

We call on the Palestinian Authority to halt negotiations, direct or indirect, with Israel because of this crime, said Ismail Haniya, Hamas prime minister in Gaza.

The ships, carrying more than 700 passengers, were on the last leg of an aid mission to deliver some 10,000 tonnes of supplies to Gaza, which has been under a crippling Israeli blockade since 2007.

Israel had warned the attempt to break the Gaza blockade was illegal and that it would intercept the ships, tow them to the Ashdod port and detain the activists before deporting them.

It labelled the convoy a media stunt, insisting the humanitarian situation is stable in Gaza despite reports to the contrary from aid agencies.


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## pak-yes

Interesting development Geo just reported that turkey has requested an emergency NATO session with Turkish Chief of Army saying that the situation is unacceptable.

Although most probably NATO will do nothing but still it will be an interesting development what happens.


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## Comet

pak-yes said:


> Interesting development Geo just reported that turkey has requested an emergency NATO session with Turkish Chief of Army saying that the situation is unacceptable.
> 
> Although most probably NATO will do nothing but still it will be an interesting development what happens.



Pressure Tactics I presume.


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## Awesome

Pakistani Star reporter, Talat Hussain feared dead - amongst the executed hostages. Pakistani government is mum! Utterly unacceptable.


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## notsuperstitious

Govt of India official statement



> Statement on incident involving boats carrying supplies for Gaza
> 
> 
> 31/05/2010
> 
> 
> India deplores the tragic loss of life and the reports of killings and injuries to people on the boats carrying supplies for Gaza. There can be no justification for such indiscriminate use of force, which we condemn. We extend our sympathies to the families of the dead and wounded. It is our firm conviction that lasting peace and security in the region can be achieved only through peaceful dialogue and not through use of force.



Ministry of External Affairs, India

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## blackwater 007

Ohh God, this man lives in fairyland. His remarks and views makes good plot for bollywood movie.....Ram gopal verma r u listening

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## Xeric

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistani Star reporter, Talat Hussain feared dead - amongst the executed hostages. Pakistani government is mum! Utterly unacceptable.



Sir Rehman is saying the he and two other Pakistanis are safe?

If God forbidden he is dead, that would be catastrophic!


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## Aslan

Asim Aquil said:


> Pakistani Star reporter, Talat Hussain feared dead - amongst the executed hostages. Pakistani government is mum! Utterly unacceptable.




Well a while ago i have seen the news on aaj tv that the US embassy in telavive have confirmed that the Pakistanis are safe all 3 of them.


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## Emperor Palpatine

ITs only gonna get worse if guyz like this are allowed to speak in news channels..

Ever wondered how much hate he would have created and how terrorists could use that hate to recruit ?

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## Marxist

*Turkish Premier: "Israel Showed Once Again It Does Not Want Peace In Region"*

SANTIAGO - Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday that Israeli government showed once again clearly that it did not want peace.

Prior to his departure from Chile for Turkey, Erdogan told reporters that Israel staged an attack on ships carrying humanitarian aid in international waters by violating the international law.

Erdogan said ships were carrying only humanitarian aid materials including medicine, bread, rise, pasta, tolls, construction materials and they were controlled under the international rules.

*Turkey called on UN Security Council to hold an emergency session in regard to Israel's raid and the country would also call on NATO to convene, he said.*

"This action, totally contrary to the principles of international law, is inhumane state terrorism. Nobody should think we will keep quiet in the face of this," he said.

Turkish Premier: "Israel Showed Once Again It Does Not Want Peace In Region"


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## Hyde

Jab zulm ki intaha ho jaye to us qom per zawal aa jaata hai 

Israel at their worst


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60&#37; of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2113563453256462293#

Believe me.. US will do nothing but say that we will investigate.... And after that they will support the Israelis and will support their claim that it was a self defense......


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## T-Faz

If Talat Hussain is killed, we have to respond in a manner that only they can understand.


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## Marxist

*NATO to meet Tuesday on Gaza flotilla raid by Israel*

BRUSSELS: NATO will hold emergency talks on Tuesday at Turkey's behest after the deadly Israeli raid on a flotilla of aid-carrying ships bound for Gaza, spokesman James Appathurai said.

"Planning is underway for a meeting... at the request of the Turkish authorities tomorrow afternoon," Appathurai said. The talks will gather ambassadors from the 28 NATO member countries at its Brussels HQ.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told reporters in Santiago, Chile, that his government was demanding the NATO council gather to address a crisis that has already seen Israeli counterpart Benjamin Netanyahu cut short a visit to Canada and Washington where he had been due to meet with US President Barack Obama on Tuesday.

Appathurai said in a statement that the military alliance is "deeply concerned about the loss of life" in international waters, with at least nine people -- many Turks according to reports -- killed and dozens more reported wounded.

"NATO does not really have instruments with which to deal with the follow-up from this type of affair," said a diplomat.

"Turkey has not invoked article five which envisages all allies coming to the aid of a member country that is the victim of an attack.

"But, given that numerous Turkish citizens appear to figure among the casualties, it is understandable that (Ankara) triggers political dialogue with its parners," the diplomat added. 

NATO to meet Tuesday on Gaza flotilla raid by Israel-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


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## Emperor Palpatine

They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)

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## Comet

Israel shouldn't be allowed to walk away after this incident or they'll do it again and again.


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## Awesome

khalidali said:


> Well a while ago i have seen the news on aaj tv that the US embassy in telavive have confirmed that the Pakistanis are safe all 3 of them.


I hope so, only Israeli word of that, no one from Pakistan has independently confirmed it.

If Talat Hussain dies, it will be a big loss for Pakistani media.


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## SpArK

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)



HMMMMM...........

What has to be believed now??


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## Awesome

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)


They were aid workers. They have to defend themselves once the Israeli navy attacked. What was Israeli navy doing on a cargo ship headed for Palestine?

Neither Turkey nor Pakistan recognizes Israeli authority.


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## Emperor Palpatine

Asim Aquil said:


> They were aid workers. They have to defend themselves once the Israeli navy attacked. What was Israeli navy doing on a cargo ship headed for Palestine?
> 
> Neither Turkey nor Pakistan recognizes Israeli authority.



Either way....Middle east is just getting scarier..I just hope a war does not erupt .


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## Bas_tum_Pak

He is Telling truth , But Truth always sour.

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## Marxist

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)



from the video posted its clear that who attacked first...now i am also confused What has to be believed now?


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60&#37; of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2113563453256462293#

Believe me.. US will do nothing but say that we will investigate.... And after that they will support the Israelis and will support their claim that it was a self defense......


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## totach7

Few"Peace activists" on those ships were armed with guns


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## Awesome

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Either way....Middle east is just getting scarier..I just hope a war does not erupt .


This is no longer a middle East issue. They messed with Pakistan...


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## Xeric

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)



Sten grenades, weapons..wow!

What a Jihadi aid workers!

Guess what, they attack israeli commandos (one of the best in the world) with kinves and clubs..how stupid. 

i thought that the aid workers might have nuked them that warranted such a brutal attack from the isrealis that killed 20 people....

The poster of this vid at YT is not only stupid but also dumb!

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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> This is no longer a middle East issue. They messed with Pakistan...



I m sorry...but I fail to understand, how have they messed with Pakistani State?


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.

small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....

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## hal-fgfa

Emperor Palpatine said:


> ITs only gonna get worse if guyz like this are allowed to speak in news channels..
> 
> Ever wondered how much hate he would have created and how terrorists could use that hate to recruit ?



no dude he is a role model in pakistan


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## SpArK

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> I m sorry...but I fail to understand, how have they messed with Pakistani State?



Go through the thread first.. they have killed a Pakistani journalist too.


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## Evil Flare

Any updates of Talat Hussein ? 

If any thing happens to him , we should attack Israel & fcuk those bastards ...


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## blackwater 007

Bas_tum_Pak said:


> He is Telling truth , But Truth always sour.



Wat is the truth??? Truth is Muslim world is not united. not only Pakistan and Turkey whole muslim world sitting in US lap. they rely on US for everything. It's not in hand of zaid hamid its in hand of your leaders. In dreams zaid hamid can make whole world into Pakistan. Sapno me jo merji kari jao. last night he came to delhi and erect pakistan flag on redfort.

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## Emperor Palpatine

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....



IN INdia...we have Democrazy


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## Xeric

This is what the discription of the video says:

*The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose.

As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, as well as live fire.*

Well guess what, use of live fire is not an authentic way of 'riot' controlling.

Rubber bullets, smoke dispensers, gas, shooting at legs etc are a few things they taught us when we were being trained, never knew the isrealis were unveiling a newer tactics for mob/riot control.

When would this kinda tactics reach books and Field Manuals of other contemporary armies? Waiting anxiously!

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## Emperor Palpatine

BENNY said:


> Go through the thread first.. they have killed a Pakistani journalist too.



Well....maybe not.....we don't know if he is safe or not..


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## prototype

zamid hamid is pakistan's equivalent of *rakhi savant*
more show,less substance

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## Bas_tum_Pak

He is saying 'Israel is Biggest Terrorist' .. And He is .. of Course

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## rameez ahmed

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....



Sir If the land is small , it does not mean that you kill anybody who is armless.. this was a Pathetic act done by terrorist state of Israel...

there was no risk of any terrorism because they were coming openly . they were not coming secretly .. And by the way they were in the international water and not in Israeli water when the Israeli terrorist attacked those armless people... 

you should think first what you are writing.


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## mr42O

Marxist said:


> from the video posted its clear that who attacked first...now i am also confused What has to be believed now?



who attacked first lol u must be joking. wtf was they commandos doing on these ships ?

take down these terrorists


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## Xeric

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....



Why dont you tell your GIs at ISAF to nuke entire Afghanistan and wind up the mess there. Dude, you have a very simple and easy way to deal with problems.

By your definition of 'making someplace safe and clean', the Holocaust was probably justified then?!

Hey Mods, are we going to let people mock and justify the death of innocents here now?

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## SpArK

*Israel-Turkey ties at breaking point after raid: analysts*

Israel's assault on an aid convoy sailing to Gaza has pushed already strained relations with Turkey to breaking point, with trade, tourism and defence ties all likely to suffer, analysts said Monday.

"The repurcussions will be at a scale that will not be possible to repair in a short time ... Turkish-Israeli ties are at a breaking point," Sinan Ogan from the TURKSAM think-tank wrote in an online article.

Turkey, once Israel's main regional ally, recalled its envoy from Tel Aviv, scrapped joint military drills and called an emergency meeting at the UN Security Council after the deadly assault on the flotilla of six ships, including three from Turkey.

Ties between NATO's sole mainly Muslim member and the Jewish state had already been damaged amid vehement Turkish criticism of Israel's devastating war on Gaza last year and Ankara's improving ties with Iran.

Some Turkish analysts interpreted the assault as a deliberate warning from the Israeli government towards Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Islamist-rooted administration.

Sedat Laciner, head of the USAK think-tank, also argued the Israeli raid on the flotilla, including its lead ship, the Turkish Mavi Marmara, was "a deliberate act of revenge against Turkey over its attitude on Gaza and Iran."

Many of the dead were Turks, according to activists involved in the campaign to break the blockade of Gaza and deliver supplies to its impoverished people.

"Israel has a professional army. It could have intervened without causing casualties if it wanted. It preferred to act in this way," Ogan said.

Foreign policy analyst Sedat Ergin said Erdogan's government had prompted "a questioning of Israel's security paradigm" with its vocal criticism of the war on Gaza and improving ties with Iran and Syria.

"Israel has come to perceive Turkey as a threat... I don't see how relations can be put back on track," he said on NTV television.

Erdogan has defended Iran's nuclear programme and on May 17, together with Brazil's president, brokered a nuclear swap deal with Tehran to avert fresh UN sanctions on the Islamic republic.

In a memorable outburst, Erdogan stormed out of a debate at the World Economic Forum last year, accusing Israel of "barbarian" acts in Gaza and telling President Shimon Peres, sitting next to him, that "you know well how to kill people."

Sentiment in Ankara was further inflamed in January when the Turkish ambassador was given a public dressing down by Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon who made him sit on a low couch in a meeting called to protest a television series deemed to be offensive to the Jewish state.

The Israeli commentator Amos Harel, writing in the Tel Aviv-based Haaretz daily, said the envoy's humiliation "now looks like small change".

"Even before then, relations with Turkey had deteriorated over Israel's Operation Cast Lead in Gaza and the generally anti-Israeli stance taken by Turkey's moderately Islamist government. The new crisis is likely to lead to a total break in ties," he wrote in the liberal daily.

Tens of thousands gathered to protest in Istanbul in the aftermath of the assault, with the crowds chanting "Damn Israel!" and "A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye, revenge, revenge!".

Turkey has long been a favourite destination for Israeli tourists but Ogan predicted holidaymakers would now stay away.

"Israeli tourists will not come this year or maybe they will not be allowed into Turkey," he said.

"Economic ties will plunge to a minimum level and defence industry tenders will very probably be cancelled."

Israeli companies have been among the main recepients of lucrative tenders to equip the Turkish army.

Military ties, involving also a series of joint exercises, was the driving force behind the Turkish-Israeli alliance, which was sealed in 1996 with the signing of a military cooperation accord


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

BENNY said:


> Go through the thread first.. they have killed a Pakistani journalist too.



oh I have bin through entire thread ..there are conflicting reports about 
Mr Syed Talat Hussain's death...there has bin no confirmation as of yet.

Mr Hussain an international journalist and 2 other Pakistani Citizens were on board Freedom Flotilla.
They were not representatives of *Govt of Pakistan* and were there on their accord..in fact before leaving they even signed a letter , stating the above.


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## pak-yes

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)



Great Sith Lord when someone kills your loved ones in the name of riot controlling using live ammunition then i will ask what will you do?


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## xenia

its pathetic people are still illusioned n projecting israel "innocent"..it was known before that the ship was going to end the 2 years blockade of gaza strip n had peace activists..israel had said it would not allow this but no one expected they would stoop so low.....


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## SpArK

*Israel condemned as anger grows over flotilla raid *







ISRAELI Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has cancelled his trip to the US just hours after backing his country's military storming ships bound for Gaza.

Up to 19 people were killed yesterday and 36 wounded after Israeli military commandos stormed the flotilla of aid ships, sparking outrage and condemnation across the globe.

Just hours earlier Mr Netanyahu had given his full support for the raid while meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

But Israel's actions sparked a strong rebuke with its allies freeziing military ties and summoning its ambassadors over the incident while Muslim leaders slammed the deadly raid as "criminal" and "inhuman."

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon also said he was "shocked" by the deadly Israeli assault and called for a full investigation to take place.

The actions forced Turkey to recall its ambassador from Tel Aviv and called for an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, where it holds a non-permanent seat.

The European Union foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton demanded Israel mount a full inquiry, as member states ordered an emergency meeting of their ambassadors to the EU in Brussels.

Ms Ashton said she called Israel's top diplomat to express concern over the raid.

Spain - the current EU president - as well as France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Austria and Greece summoned Israel's ambassadors for explanations, with Madrid slamming the operation as "unacceptable."

And South Africa's Nobel Peace Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu said the assault was "inexcusable."

The Islamist Hamas, which runs the Gaza Strip, urged fellow Muslims to "rise up" in protest in front of Israeli embassies the world over, as Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas declared three days of mourning over the "massacre."

Arab League chief Amr Mussa slammed the raid as a "crime" against a humanitarian mission, saying the 22-country body was consulting to decide on its next step.

Algeria was also seeking news of 32 of its citizens aboard the ships.



While condemnation was swift, protesters began showing their disdain in Turkey and Pakistan.

Police struggled to hold back an angry crowd of hundreds outside the Israeli consulate in Turkey's biggest city Istanbul, while furious protesters shouted "D**n Israel" outside the residence of the Israeli ambassador in Ankara.

Elswhere Thousands of Palestinian refugees and activists demonstrated across Lebanon to denounce the raid, some chanting slogans like "Give us weapons, give us weapons and send us on to Gaza."

According to Israel's private Channel 10 television, Israeli marine commandos opened fire after being attacked with axes and knives by a number of the passengers on board the aid ships, the broadcaster said, without giving the source of its information.

Israel said it was forced to board the ships to uphold its blockade of the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory.

The Israeli ambassador to Denmark Arthur Avnon claimed Israel claims it attacked the fleet after receiving reports it had links to al-Qaida.

Israel condemned as anger grows over flotilla raid | News.com.au


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## alibaz

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)



Hardly anyone can be identify. Moreover how can you trust this video of the biggest forgers on God's earth. They did not hesitate to forge passports of different countries to kill A person in UAE. Therefore this video can not be trusted.

There are other videos available where you can very clearly make out what pigs of Israeli Navy are doing.


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## QADRI

totach7 said:


> Few"Peace activists" on those ships were armed with guns



o really do you like to tell us what knid of weapons they had...any footage, any link????? come on now don't try to hide your evil deed.


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## mr42O

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....




lol they have every right to blockade gaza u must be joking ? Isreal was made by west in 1948 and arabs livinging there was killed with west weapons and still doing. Were are most isreali jews from ? Poland, Russia and other EU countries why they just cant live in EU why move to ISreal and take homes of arabs ?


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## SpArK

*Syria, Lebanon say flotilla attack can lead to war*






Turkish women shout anti-Israeli slogans during a protest in front of the U.N. house in Beirut on Monday, after Israeli commandos stormed six ships carrying pro-Palestinian activists and humanitarian aid on a mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip







Syrian President Bashar alAssad and Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri said on Monday that Israels attack on a flotilla of aid bound for Gaza threatens to ignite a war in the region.

Syria and Lebanon condemn the heinous crime committed by Israel through the brutal attacks on unarmed civilians on board the Freedom Flotilla, both leaders said in a joint statement, after a pre planned meeting in Damascus.

They have warned that Israels violations of basic humanitarian norms and international laws threatens to plunge the Middle East into a war which will not only affect the region. Israels navy on Monday stormed the flotilla, made up of six boats carrying some 700 proPalestinian activists and 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid bound for the Gaza Strip. At least 10 died as a result of the raid.

Meanwhile, hundreds of Lebanese, Palestinians and followers of the Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah, demonstrated in front the UN headquarters in Beirut.

This is a crime against humanity, read one banner carried by the protestors, who chanted antiIsrael slogans. They handed a letter of condemnation of the event to UN spokesman in Beirut, Bahaa al Kossi.

A crazy move

Earlier, Lebanons Prime Minister Saad Hariri said the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was dangerous and a crazy move, which would inflame the region.

The premier called on the international community to take action and said Lebanon was in contact with a number of countries to coordinate responses to the incident.

Reports in Beirut said the head of the Lebanese mission to the Freedom Flotilla Hani Suleiman, had been wounded in the attack.

Hezbollah lawmaker Hassan Fadlallah described the attack as a premeditated crime against humanity by the Israelis. At their meeting, alAssad and Hariri also demanded the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic Conference, the Security Council and the international community to act immediately and put an end to Israels actions.

The two officials also discussed the outcome of Mr. Hariris recent trip to Washington and his talks with US President Barack Obama as well as his meeting with UN SecretaryGeneral Ban Kimoon in New York last week.

A source in the Lebanese government had said earlier that discussing threats by some Israeli cabinet ministers over comments by Mr. Hariri that Arabs have the right to use all means to remain on lands occupied by Israel was on their agenda.

On Saturday, Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said the Lebanese government and its prime minister will pay a heavy price in case of a new war with Hezbollah.

According to a source close to the premier, Mr. Hariris trip to Damascus comes as part of an Arab tour that is to include Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan.


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## Evil Flare

BENNY said:


> *
> The Israeli ambassador to Denmark Arthur Avnon claimed Israel claims it attacked the fleet after receiving reports it had links to al-Qaida.
> 
> *


*



Al-Qaida ??? WTF 


Now Journilist & Turkish MP's are Terrorist ???*


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## Bas_tum_Pak

Biggest Terrorist on earth - Israel
Who even Kill the Food Supporters And Journalists .

Thats Enough !

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## Comet

totach7 said:


> Few"Peace activists" on those ships were armed with guns



How did Israel came to know that they have guns? Israel stormed that Ship without any justification. whatever happened next expected outcome.

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## Bas_tum_Pak

umairp said:


> How did Israel came to know that they have guns? Israel stormed that Ship without any justification. whatever happened next outcome.



Israel is Terrorist and terrorists never need for any Justifications ..


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## Marxist

> who attacked first lol u must be joking. wtf was they commandos doing on these ships ?
> 
> take down these terrorists



am not joking,commandos tried to stop the ship entering Israeli waters.i dont say these poor journos are terrorists.whatever it is this is a bad incident.


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## Xeric

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> oh I have bin through entire thread ..there are conflicting reports about
> Mr Syed Talat Hussain's death...there has bin no confirmation as of yet.
> 
> Mr Hussain an international journalist and 2 other Pakistani Citizens were on board Freedom Flotilla.
> They were not representatives of *Govt of Pakistan* and were there on their accord..in fact before leaving they even signed a letter , stating the above.



i never knew that journalists represents their govts. Is that how journalism works in 'free' indian press?

And also does this precludes them from being Pakistani citizens?

A terrorists from Pakistan mock a bomb (even if one can call it a bomb at NYC) and Pakistan, its people and govt becomes responsible, but here inncoensts civilians (Pakistani-who in no way were armed) are killed and you suggest that it hs nothing to do with the country and its govt?

Listen, dont overload your commonsense!

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## xenia

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....*they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" *why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some *100 insane people who were politically instigated *going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....



u gave them the right to block gaza...oh stop foolish assumptions..
everyone knows they were peace activists n carried humanitarian aid...n 100 insane ppl were from all the counties..not from turkey alone..right?


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## SpArK

*Israel minister sees "scandal" over ship killings*



Israel minister sees scandal over ship killings | Reuters

(Reuters) - An Israeli cabinet minister said *he anticipated "a big scandal"* following the killing of more than 10 activists aboard Gaza-bound aid ships boarded by Israeli security forces on Monday.

World

The deaths aboard the flotilla of six boats, including vessels flying the flag of *Israel's rare Muslim ally* Turkey, drew calls for an inquiry from the European Union, and expressions of shock from France and the United Nations.

"It's going to be a big scandal, no doubt about it," Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, the trade minister, told Reuters Insider in an interview in Doha, where he was on a visit to Qatar, one of the few Arab states where Israeli officials can travel.

*"The whole thing was a provocation from its beginning. They planned it almost two months ago, and we tried all the way to explain to them: 'Gentlemen don't try to do it because we have all the right to defend ourselves'," he said in English.*

Gaza, run by the Hamas group, is under a tight blockade imposed by Israel, aided by Egypt. Hamas, which seized control of Gaza in 2007, is hostile to the Jewish state. The blockade is itself the focus of criticism by Israel's Western allies.

Five Israeli soldiers were wounded during the operation. The Israeli army says its soldiers came under *gunfire*.

"We tried our best to block the way. Everyone can judge us. When there is blood, you cannot explain anything," Ben-Eliezer, himself a former defense minister, said.

Ben-Eliezer, a member of the left-wing Labour party inside the right-led coalition government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, renewed his calls for a peace deal with the Palestinians and said he hoped the crisis could bring pressure to advance talks. His views are rarely shared by Netanyahu.

Israel has faced a series of diplomatic storms in recent months. Israeli diplomats were expelled by Australia and Britain over the faking of passports used by the assassins of a Hamas leader in Dubai in January.

*Israel's ties with the United States, its main ally, suffered in March when the announcement of plans for new Jewish settlement building in East Jerusalem temporarily set back Washington's efforts to get Middle East peace talks moving*.


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## Comet

mr42O said:


> lol they have every right to blockade gaza u must be joking ? Isreal was made by west in 1948 and arabs livinging there was killed with west weapons and still doing. Were are most isreali jews from ? Poland, Russia and other EU countries *why they just cant live in EU *why move to ISreal and take homes of arabs ?


Because Europeans have killed the Jews in great numbers in the past.


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## SpArK




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## irfan wazir

our islam said if u see evil than u fight against it if u have not the capability than u consider it as bad in heart so if he considring than its mean its out of her hands he done his job n by the way for indian that he is role model here in pakistan..

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## mjnaushad

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)


So attacking ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS is right.....But retaliating to that attack with an iron rod is wrong. 

WOW.....



A man can become this cheap .......i never thought that.

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## Maj. Gel. Tariq khan

No, they dnt need this hate. They already have hater of your for wat you doing in khasmir

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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## Xeric

What i like here is how the indian cyber warriors defend the isrealis...

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## Maj. Gel. Tariq khan

If u thing pk cant fight with israel So, let me tell u a best example. Here it is
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) distroyed upto 5 Israeli Air Force Aircrafts, 3 in Arab Isael war & 2 in Yom Kippur war. Can you tell how much IAF damage PAF Aircraft? Answer is IAF even not scratch a single one..


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## mr42O

Aamir Zia said:


> Al-Qaida ??? WTF
> 
> 
> Now Journilist & Turkish MP's are Terrorist ???



Who is biggest terrorist ?

AQ or Isreal/USA 

I laugh after reading comments of Isrealies.


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## xenia

i think erdogan is one brave man muslim countries have!!he has repeatedly condemned israel n did right in face of netanyahu last year over israels war crimes..i think israel intentionally picked this row..besides they are facing pressure over NPT deal..so they resorted to digression tactics....


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## SpArK

xeric said:


> What i like here is how the indian cyber warriors defend the isrealis...



What i like here is that ..you only noticing *it*.


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## Maj. Gel. Tariq khan

total arieal encounter gose to 15 of Israel Air Force (IAF) and 0 of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan is only country which just not fight with once super power USSR but defeat them and covert it into 20 new states


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## Marxist

*Mavi Marmara docked at Ashdod*

*500 activists on board will be arrested or deported.*

The Mavi Marmara, docked at Ashdod on Monday evening and the process of removing the remaining activists has begun.

The Mavi Marmara is the Gaza flotilla ship on which deadly fighting took place, leading to the death of nine activists.

The 500 activists still on board the ship have been concentrated in its bows under guard by anti-terror Police and Navy soldiers. T*he activists will be asked to identify themselves after which they will be deported from Israel.*

Internal Security Ministry Yitzhak Aharonowitz told Channel 10 news on Monday evening that "so far they have disembarked peacefully and no problems are expected in removing activists". He went on to say that *"everyone will be checked by doctors and those who want to leave will be deported, those who don't want to will be arrested."*

The soldiers who were beaten are being asked to identify the activists who attacked them and those activists are expected to be put on trial.

Those who refuse to identify will be arrested and sent to Be'er Sheva prison.

Many wounded activists have been sent to Hadassa where the hospital management reported many gun shot wounds. The hospitalized activists were under military police guard.

The remaining five ships docked at Ashdod as requested and have followed IDF instructions.



Mavi Marmara docked at Ashdod


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## prototype

Maj. Gel. Tariq khan said:


> If u thing pk cant fight with israel So, let me tell u a best example. Here it is
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) distroyed upto 5 Israeli Air Force Aircrafts, 3 in Arab Isael war & 2 in Yom Kippur war. Can you tell how much IAF damage PAF Aircraft? Answer is IAF even not scratch a single one..



still israel gol overwhelming victory in both the wars,why that hapened pakistan was also present among the band of boys

care to tell me how many time israel was in direct confrontation with pakistan,just sending some pilots among an entire fleet does not twist facts in ur favour,the point is that still israel outnumbered the arab nations in every sphere of conflict


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal

Believe me.. US will do nothing but say that we will investigate.... And after that they will support the Israelis and will support their claim that it was a self defense......

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## Wounded Healer

According to International Law, what Israel did today is an "act of war".

Lets hope that the Muslim countries grow some balls and take strict action against Israel. 

Also,

There has been only one person in the Pakistan Media that has impressed me and that has been Talat Hussain. And i know many people will agree with me on this.

Lets hope that all the people/hostages come out of this unscathed. 

regards,


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## Neither Right Nor Wrong

xeric said:


> *i never knew that journalists represents their govts*. Is that how journalism works in 'free' indian press?
> And also does this precludes them from being Pakistani citizens?



*Exactly* so how has Israel "messed" with Pakistan???....When Daniel Pearl was killed ..was Pakistan messing with United states??




xeric said:


> * terrorists from Pakistan mock a bomb (even if one can call it a bomb at NYC) and Pakistan, its people and govt becomes responsible, but here inncoensts civilians (Pakistani-who in no way were armed) are killed and you suggest that it hs nothing to do with the country and its govt?*


*

Yes and when Ppl like Faisal shazad or Ajmal Kasab do their deeds ..then Pakistan conveniently claims they were Non state actors and were not under the Writ of the state..so how is this situation any different??..or are you suggesting that Pak state regularly encourages its citizen to visit other countries without a Visa(May how ever Noble their cause be)??




xeric said:



Listen, dont overload your commonsense!

Click to expand...


I ll rather not respond to your taunts ..goes out to show ..your argument is less on substance, more on emotions.*


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## SpArK

*Turkey accuses Israel of 'state terror', recalls envoy over fleet raid*

Turkey on Monday accused Israel of "state terror" and recalled its ambassador after a deadly raid on Gaza-bound aid ships by Israeli forces left at least nine dead, most of them Turkish nationals.

"It should be known that we will not stay silent and unresponsive in the face of this inhuman state terror," Erdogan said in live televised remarks ahead of his departure from Chile to Turkey, cutting short his Latin American tour.

"International law has been trampled underfoot," he added. "This attack has clearly shown once again that the Israeli government does not want peace in the region."

Earlier, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc announced that the Turkish ambassador to Tel Aviv, Oguz Celikkol, was summoned back to Ankara and plans for three joint military exercises with Israel had also been scrapped.

Turkey has called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, where it holds a non-permanent seat, he added.

Erdogan said that his country had also also called for emergency NATO talks over the Israeli raid. An alliance spokesman said the meeting would take place Tuesday.

Turkey's strong reaction marked a new low in the once-flourishing bilateral ties with Israel and came as the Jewish State announced that most of the bloodshed ocurred on the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish passenger ship carrying more than 600 people, and that most of the victims were Turkish.

"By targeting civilians, Israel has once again shown its disregard for human life and peaceful initiatives," a Turkish foreign ministry statement said.

"This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a flagrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations.... Israel will have to bear the consequences of this behaviour," it said.

Turkish army chief Ilker Basbug, who cut short a visit to Egypt and returned to Turkey Monday, told his Israeli counterpart Gabi Ashkenazi in a telephone conversation that the use of military force against the aid ships was "grave and unacceptable", an army statement said.

Basbug also said that the Israeli raid "had led to very serious consequences", it added.

President Abdullah Gul said Turkey was demanding that Israel "swiftly carry out all necessary inquiries on the issue and punish those responsible."

Israeli ambassador Gabby Levy was summoned to the foreign ministry as thousands took to the streets across Turkey to protest the assault that came atop already deteriorating ties between the two former allies.

Turkey asked for a detailed report on the fate of all people who were aboard the vessels, a Turkish diplomat told AFP, adding that they included nationals from 33 countries.

Levy was also told that the Turkish passengers and the wounded should be repatriated to Turkey in the shortest possible time and the vessels released, he said.

Some 10,000 people gathered at the central Taksim square in the country's biggest city Istanbul, burning Israeli flags and calling for a boycott of Israeli goods, an AFP photographer said.

"Damn Israel!", "A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye, revenge, revenge!" chanted the protestors, carrying Turkish and Palestinian flags.

A crowd of some 1,000 people protested outside Levy's residence in Ankara, shouting "Damn Israel" and reciting prayers.

The Israeli navy stormed the flotilla of six vessels as it sailed to Gaza in a bid to break the blockade of the impoverished enclave, in place since 2007, and deliver some 10,000 tonnes of supplies.

The Israeli army initially said more than 10 passengers were killed but then revised the death toll down to nine.

Israeli military and commandos involved in the operation also said they had only responded with force after being attacked with knives, clubs and even live fire, an allegation that the Turkish prime minister denied as baseless.

Muslim-majority Turkey has been a close ally of Israel since 1996 but relations between the two countries have taken a sharp downturn since Israel's devastating war on Gaza in late 2008 and early 2009, which Turkey has vehemently criticised.


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## prototype

Maj. Gel. Tariq khan said:


> total arieal encounter gose to 15 of Israel Air Force (IAF) and 0 of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan is only country which just not fight with once super power USSR but defeat them and covert it into 20 new states




this is the lamest statement i ever heard,pakistan disintegrated ussr


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## Xeric

BENNY said:


> YouTube - On-board video of Gaza Freedom Flotilla storm, aid workers & Israeli troops clash



What a _coward_ bunch of suicidal bastards, they clash with a tough navy while wearing life jackets.... FTW!! Lolz...

Probably they werent properly trained by Al Qaida or the TTP as was the case with Shahzad!


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## Desert Fox

What a shame, where are the Arab leaders? Props to Turkey for speaking up against these Zionists! Shame indeed that these zionists didn't even allow a aid convoy to help the Palestinians 

And all these indians here who are supporting zionists don't even bother sympathizing with the Palestinians.

sirf mathlab ke dost hain ye indians

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## Meengla

@ToTach7,
You are speaking of Turkish 'genocide' of Armenians and Kurds in the same topic as we are talking about the Israeli aggression against the Flotilla. Perhaps subconsciously you recognize a 'connection' here? I have seen plenty of Israeli bloggers--when cornered at Haaretz--start attacking Turkey over Armenia and Kurds.
Enjoy your little deluded world. But you'd better hope that the Turkish army Generals don't come in the way of the strong Turkish response the nation of Turkey wants against Israel. Trust me: Turkey is even more important to you than your far off friends despite your claims to be part of 'the West'.


----------



## Xeric

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Exactly* so how has Israel "messed" with Pakistan???....When Daniel Pearl was killed ..was Pakistan messing with United states??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and when Ppl like Faisal shazad or Ajmal Kasab do their deeds ..then Pakistan conveniently claims they were *Non state actors* and were not under the Writ of the state..so how is this situation any different??..or are you suggesting that Pak state regularly encourages its citizen to visit other countries without a Visa(May how ever* Noble* their cause be)??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ll rather not respond to your taunts ..goes out to show ..your argument is less on substance, more on emotions.



It was not me who said they had messed with Pakistan.

My arguments was only a counter to yours where you (failingly) tried to advocate that even if those 3 Pakistanis were killed, Pakistan should even raise an eyebrow as they wrote something on a chit of paper.

So dont extrapolate my comments and dont feed me BS!

BTW, i never knew renouncing Pakistani nationality was so easy..


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## DesiGuy

it seems like Israel is surely up to something. first there were news of Israel might attack Iran. 


I think Israel is ready to invade it's neighbors, but can't get enough support!!!


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## Areesh

prototype said:


> this is the lamest statement i ever heard,pakistan disintegrated ussr



Being an Indian it is beyond your level of comprehension. So no need to roll on the floor like a dumba**.


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## Marxist

*Obama tells Netanyahu on phone: We need raid 'facts' ASAP*

WASHINGTON &#8211; US President Barack Obama spoke by telephone with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu Monday after the latter cancelled a planned Oval Office meeting scheduled for Tuesday.

During their 15-minute conversation, Obama conveyed his understanding for Netanyahu&#8217;s decision to return immediately to Israel from Canada and not stop in Washington following the deadly clash between the IDF and activists trying to break the Gaza blockade earlier in the day.

The two leaders also agreed to reschedule their meeting at the first opportunity. &#8220;The president expressed deep regret at the loss of life in today's incident, and concern for the wounded, many of whom are being treated in Israeli hospitals,&#8221; a statement put out by the White House read. &#8220;The president also expressed the importance of learning all the facts and circumstances around this morning's tragic events as soon as possible.&#8221;

The visit had been expected to reaffirm the strong US-Israel relationship after weeks of tension and provide a public welcome to Netanyahu after his nighttime White House visit in March was conducted under a total media blackout. It was to come in the midst of nascent proximity talks between Israelis and Palestinians as the US sought to build momentum to move to direct negotiations and ahead of a high-profile visit of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to the White House next Tuesday.

&#8220;It shows how hard it is to purposefully change the momentum&#8221; in Middle East peace-making, Jonathan Alterman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies noted. &#8220;Even when you try to build small steps to change things, the waves come crashing down.&#8221;

He also assessed that in contrast to the Europeans, who already were using the incident Monday to reinforce calls for an end to the Gaza blockade, the Americans would want to have a fuller grasp of the situation before reviewing Gaza policy.

&#8220;On the American side there&#8217;s going to be a real desire to understand what happened,&#8221; he said.

Obama tells Netanyahu on phone: We need raid 'facts' ASAP


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## mikkix

Emperor Palpatine said:


> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> They don't look like peace activists to me(no offense)



You are terrorist tooo,,,,,,,,


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## rameez ahmed

Wounded Healer said:


> According to International Law, what Israel did today is an "act of war".
> 
> Lets hope that the Muslim countries grow some balls and take strict action against Israel.
> 
> Also,
> 
> There has been only one person in the Pakistan Media that has impressed me and that has been Talat Hussain. And i know many people will agree with me on this.
> 
> Lets hope that all the people/hostages come out of this unscathed.
> 
> regards,



Brother well said.. lets pray for safe return of everyone who was on that ship.... I will agree with you about Talat Hussain... 

I think Muslim world should have a strong response towards this ... Israel is in the mood of war .. But in front of the world it is pretending that its only defending itself..... 

Muslims should really wake up now ..... Its my expectation that Israel will wage a big war on the arab world before 2020 (Allah knows best. i am just making an expectation).. All the signs are going in that directions.....


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## IBRIS

utter nonsense, nothing else. Channel could of had called better people instead of this goon.

I want my wasted time back watching these clips of ZAHIL showing his stupidity.


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## Comet

Neither Right Nor Wrong said:


> *Exactly* so how has Israel "messed" with Pakistan???....When Daniel Pearl was killed ..was Pakistan messing with United states??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and when Ppl like Faisal shazad or Ajmal Kasab do their deeds ..then Pakistan conveniently claims they were *Non state actors* and were not under the Writ of the state..so how is this situation any different??..or are you suggesting that Pak state regularly encourages its citizen to visit other countries without a Visa(May how ever* Noble* their cause be)??



What the hell are you talking about?
Daniel Pearl was not killed by Pakistani Security forces. whereas these journalist were attacked by Israel defense force.


Secondly, are you saying that the troops who stormed the ship were non state actors?

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## SpArK

SilentNinja said:


> What a shame, where are the Arab leaders? Props to Turkey for speaking up against these Zionists! Shame indeed that these zionists didn't even allow a aid convoy to help the Palestinians
> 
> And all these indians here who are supporting zionists don't even bother sympathizing with the Palestinians.
> 
> sirf mathlab ke dost hain ye indians



*For just one time lower your Indian hatred and debate on the topic. Well Israel has done a terrorist act and nobody has supported Israel on this from my side.*


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

guys im not a big fan of mr zaid but wt he said today is some wt true even indians realize that wt is happning in gaza is wrong and international terrorisn ant to protect our brothers and sisters there we have to take a strong stance on international front


----------



## P.kid

DesiGuy said:


> it seems like Israel is surely up to something. first there were news of Israel might attack Iran.
> 
> 
> I think Israel is ready to invade it's neighbors, but can't get enough support!!!



Hi WW3.  no seriously i agree with ur point i get the sme feeling. If it is what they are planning then we might hav a thermo-nuclear war.


----------



## T-Faz

*Idiots they were attacked with a metal rod because they opened fire from a helicopter before boarding the ship.*

Watch Press Tv Live | Presss Tv Online | Press Tv Live Stream Free

*Look at this video, it starts half way through and shows IDF firing on the ship and people running away.

The Indians have shown their loyalty today.*

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## DesiGuy

*Israeli PM 'regrets' deaths as troops storm aid ships*


Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed regret after at least nine people died when troops stormed ships trying to break the Gaza blockade.

But he said soldiers had been defending themselves after they were "clubbed, beaten and stabbed".

Pro-Palestinian campaigners say the soldiers opened fire unprovoked when they landed on the aid-carrying ships.

There has been international condemnation of the loss of life, and the UN is holding an emergency session.

As the meeting of the UN Security Council got under way in New York, diplomats said the draft text of a resolution called for condemnation of the operation, the immediate release of the impounded ships and for an international inquiry.

Mr Netanyahu cut short a visit to Canada to deal with the growing crisis and cancelled a scheduled meeting in Washington with US President Barack Obama on Tuesday.
'Defend themselves'

Israel imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip after the Islamist movement Hamas took power there in 2007.

The six-ship convoy had set out to carry 10,000 tonnes of aid from Cyprus to Gaza, despite repeated Israeli warnings that it would not be allowed to reach the territory.

In a statement, Mr Netanyahu defended the Israeli operation, saying troops were attacked when they landed on the largest of the six ships in the flotilla. 


BBC News - Israeli PM 'regrets' deaths as troops storm aid ships


----------



## Marxist

*UN Council Calls Emergency Meeting on Israel Clash*

May 31 (Bloomberg) -- The United Nations Security Council is holding an emergency meeting after pro-Palestinian activists died in a clash with Israeli forces, which intercepted ships carrying humanitarian aid supplies to the Gaza Strip.

Lebanon, which holds the rotating presidency of the Security Council this month, requested the meeting in New York today along with council member Turkey, according to Lebanon&#8217;s mission to the UN. The Palestinian Authority also requested the meeting, Lebanon&#8217;s mission said.

&#8220;We call collectively as Arabs, with Turkey, for an independent international investigation to know who gave orders from Israeli side to open fire,&#8221; Riyad Mansour, the Palestinian Authority envoy to the UN, told reporters in New York before the Security Council meeting.

Israeli commandos killed at least 10 pro-Palestinian activists after encountering resistance while intercepting the ships, the Israeli army said. Israel said its forces were attacked today with guns, knives and clubs after boarding a vessel and seven soldiers were wounded.

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said in Kampala, Uganda, that he was &#8220;shocked&#8221; by the news and called for a full explanation from Israel.

UN Council Calls Emergency Meeting on Israel Clash (Update2) - BusinessWeek


----------



## Abu Basit

and where is the Terrorist states of America in this whole episode. American terrorists aren't tired of barking terrorism, islamic terrorism, pak terrorism, Why they don't speak now , why they keeping their ****** mouth shut~* Ah' how can one terrorist state speak against the other...*


----------



## DesiGuy

ANKARA: Turkey recalled its ambassador from Tel Aviv Monday after Israel's deadly raid on aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said.

Our ambassador to Israel has been recalled to Ankara, Arinc told a press conference.

He said plans for three joint military exercises with Israel had been scrapped and confirmed that Turkey had called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, where it holds a non-permanent seat.


----------



## Areesh

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys im not a big fan of mr zaid but wt he said today is some wt true even indians realize that wt is happning in gaza is wrong and international terrorisn ant to protect our brothers and sisters there we have to take a strong stance on international front



Who told you that Indians realize. How one Zionist can condemn other.

Lolzzz


----------



## SpArK

*FULL TEXT - Statement by Israel's Netanyahu on flotilla deaths*

(Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made the following statement on Monday about the storming of an aid convoy heading toward Gaza. He was speaking during a photo opportunity at the end of a meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Ottawa:

World

"We are in the middle of unfolding events as a result of what happened yesterday. I explained to the Prime Minister that I would have to cut my visit short and go back to Israel. I just had a conversation with President Obama and I told him that I would have to go back to Israel. We both agreed that we'd have very close consultations right now and try to reschedule our meeting to the earliest date possible.

"I think both Prime Minister Harper and President Obama understand that Israel has a great security problem and I want to put that into context. The context is that Gaza has become a base for Hamas terrorists backed by Iran. They have fired thousands of rockets into Israel. They are amassing thousands more rockets to fire at our cities, at our towns, at our children.

"Our policy is this -- we try to let in all humanitarian goods into Gaza, all peaceful commodities, food, medicine, and the like. What we want to prevent coming into Gaza are rockets, missiles, explosives and war materials that could be used to attack our civilians. This is an ongoing policy and it was the one that guided our action yesterday. We told the flotilla of ships, we said, 'You can take all your cargo, put it in our port of Ashdod, we'll just ferret out if there are any war materials, and the rest will go through'.

"We succeeded in doing this peacefully with five of the six ships. The sixth ship, the largest, which had hundreds of people on it, not only did not cooperate in this effort peacefully, they deliberately attacked the first soldiers who came on the ship. They were mobbed, they were clubbed, they were beaten, stabbed, there was even a report of gunfire. And our soldiers had to defend themselves, defend their lives, or they would have been killed.

"And regrettably in this exchange at least 10 people died. We regret this loss of life. We regret any of the violence that was there. We would like -- I would like to wish speedy recovery to the wounded, including to four of our own soldiers.

"Our policy was and will continue to be that Israel would let humanitarian aid, any kind of goods that are meant for peace, to the civilian population of Gaza. We have no problems with the people of Gaza. We do have a conflict with the terrorist regime of Hamas, supported by Iran. We want to maintain a situation where we prevent weapons and war materials from coming into Gaza, and allowing humanitarian aid to go to the population of Gaza. That is a difficult task, we'll be talking to our friends in Canada and the United States and all the governments and let them have the available information as we uncover it. Thank you very much."

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-48947620100531


----------



## Desert Fox

T-Faz said:


> *Idiots they were attacked with a metal rod because they opened fire from a helicopter before boarding the ship.*
> 
> Watch Press Tv Live | Presss Tv Online | Press Tv Live Stream Free
> 
> *Look at this video, it starts half way through and shows IDF firing on the ship and people running away.
> 
> The Indians have shown their loyalty today.*



exactly what i've been saying!


----------



## Ahmad

Barrett said:


> Change the Topic to
> 
> *Jewish Terrorists kill civilians.*



no my friend dont say that. jewish have good and bad people just like us muslims, what if the others condemn the whole muslim world because of OBL and Mullah Omar actions? you should know that the jews were also part of this ship. instead of jewish, say zionists.

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## MilesTogo

As a layman, I am assuming there must be ways to stop a ship other than storming it.

Plus food and other aid will actually help bring peace.

Looks like Israel got this wrong...


----------



## Abu Basit

DesiGuy said:


> *Israeli PM 'regrets' deaths as troops storm aid ships*[/url]



as if we gonna believe the Israeli terrorists.

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## DesiGuy

Abu Basit said:


> and where is the Terrorist states of America in this whole episode. American terrorists aren't tired of barking terrorism, islamic terrorism, pak terrorism, Why they don't speak now , why they keeping their ****** mouth shut~* Ah' how can one terrorist state speak against the other...*



Ca'mon, now where does America come from on this event? America itself want to maintain peace between Israel and Palestine. 

don't keep digging into past and see present situation.


----------



## Comet

Rehman Malik Tweeted: 

So far no Pak casualties on Israeli waters. I'm lookng 4ward 2 Talat comng home safely.I met his young daughtr&son who were missng him 2much


----------



## pak-yes

DesiGuy said:


> *Israeli PM 'regrets' deaths as troops storm aid ships*
> 
> 
> Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed regret after at least nine people died when troops stormed ships trying to break the Gaza blockade.
> 
> But he said soldiers had been defending themselves after they were "clubbed, beaten and stabbed".
> 
> Pro-Palestinian campaigners say the soldiers opened fire unprovoked when they landed on the aid-carrying ships.
> 
> There has been international condemnation of the loss of life, and the UN is holding an emergency session.
> 
> As the meeting of the UN Security Council got under way in New York, diplomats said the draft text of a resolution called for condemnation of the operation, the immediate release of the impounded ships and for an international inquiry.
> 
> Mr Netanyahu cut short a visit to Canada to deal with the growing crisis and cancelled a scheduled meeting in Washington with US President Barack Obama on Tuesday.
> 'Defend themselves'
> 
> Israel imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip after the Islamist movement Hamas took power there in 2007.
> 
> The six-ship convoy had set out to carry 10,000 tonnes of aid from Cyprus to Gaza, despite repeated Israeli warnings that it would not be allowed to reach the territory.
> 
> In a statement, Mr Netanyahu defended the Israeli operation, saying troops were attacked when they landed on the largest of the six ships in the flotilla.
> 
> 
> BBC News - Israeli PM 'regrets' deaths as troops storm aid ships



Crocodile tears.


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

xeric said:


> *It was not me who said they had messed with Pakistan.*
> 
> My arguments was only a counter to yours where you (failingly) tried to advocate that even if those 3 Pakistanis were killed, Pakistan should even raise an eyebrow as they wrote something on a chit of paper.
> 
> So dont extrapolate my comments and dont feed me BS!
> 
> BTW, i never knew renouncing Pakistani nationality was so easy..



So you barged into the argument just for sake of it?? 

Plz do not distort my comments..I never advocated any of the above??...My question still stands how has the state of Israel "messed" with the state of Pakistan??

or does the the action of an individual...represent the will of the entire nation?


----------



## SQ8

Surprisingly the only nation actively protesting is the one with the most ties to Israel and Iran.
The others seem to have lost their tongue.


----------



## DesiGuy

Maj. Gel. Tariq khan said:


> total arieal encounter gose to 15 of Israel Air Force (IAF) and 0 of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan is only country which just not fight with once super power USSR but defeat them and covert it into 20 new states






You beat even zaid hamid!!!


----------



## Evil Flare

Just watched the Foreign Minister of Turkey speaking Urgent UN Council ...

I just Salute him .... 


& Where are that ARABS bastard ?? & Where are our Hijre Leaders ??

not even condemn it ...

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## Areesh

Loki said:


> It is entirely understandable that armies of countries which have committed genocide i.e, Nazi Germany and Pakistani Army will condemn the Zionists..



The post typical from a Zionist mind set. The never ending cry about so called holocausts of Europe and south asia.

Zionism is getting stronger in India.


----------



## SpArK



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## Abu Basit

Aamir Zia said:


> Just watched the Foreign Minister of Turkey speaking Urgent UN Council ...
> 
> I just Salute him ....
> 
> 
> & Where are that ARABS bastard ?? & Where are our Hijre Leaders ??
> 
> not even condemn it ...



where else the Hijras cud be, you know that .....


----------



## rameez ahmed

According to my expectation,Israel is planning to wage a big war on muslims within next 5 to 10 years.... that is why its supporters are pointing at the security issues over our nuclear weapons under the shield that they might go in the hands of of terrorists.. 

US is not our friend... its the friend of Israel and will, in the end, tell Pakistan to dismantle its nuclear weapons so that Israel may wage that big war..... It has brought their war on Pakistan just to increase terrorism in Pakistan so that the world may say that Pakistan Nuclear weapons are not safe....

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## Desert Fox

BENNY said:


> "We succeeded in doing this peacefully with five of the six ships. The sixth ship, the largest, which had hundreds of people on it, not only did not cooperate in this effort peacefully, they deliberately attacked the first soldiers who came on the ship. They were mobbed, they were clubbed, they were beaten, stabbed, there was even a report of gunfire. *And our soldiers had to defend themselves, defend their lives, or they would have been killed.*



killed with what? pots and pans? this is BullSh*t



BENNY said:


> "And regrettably in this exchange at least 10 people died. We regret this loss of life. We regret any of the violence that was there. We would like -- I would like to wish speedy recovery to the wounded, including to four of our own soldiers.



BS!, does he expect his apology to bring back the 10 dead activist to life?


you indians are showing your true colors by sympathizing with these zionists and their criminal activities!


----------



## DesiGuy

Abu Basit said:


> America is a whore and Israel is it's illegitimate child. America does come into each and every occassion when it comes to terrorist israel, it's Terrorist State of America which vetos each and every resolution against israel in UN.
> 
> My question is simple, Why we don't see america barking now over the state terrorism of israel?





ca'mon i am saying again and again, don't stay in the past. 


America itself is victim of terrorism NOW. 


Israel is America alley, but that does not mean America is supporting Israel in all way. 


And why America is not saying anything? 

well, we got to wait to see that.


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

Areesh said:


> Who told you that Indians realize. How one Zionist can condemn other.
> 
> Lolzzz



well at least the one who r humans 

any way abt holocaust well germans did that not muslims and pakistan never did jewish jenocide then i guss ita all zionoism speaking not humanity


----------



## Canaan

I hope those pirates got their A** kicked good.


----------



## alibaz

Aamir Zia said:


> Just watched the Foreign Minister of Turkey speaking Urgent UN Council ...
> 
> I just Salute him ....
> 
> 
> & Where are that ARABS bastard ?? & Where are our Hijre Leaders ??
> 
> not even condemn it ...



Just keep quiet!!!!!!!!!
The are in their harems busy in..........................


----------



## Evil Flare

Live Proceeding of UN Security Council ..


UN Webcast


----------



## Comet

BENNY said:


> YouTube - help for gazza? shocking picture about what relly happend there



inconclusive. out of context material. Show video before the commando started to land on the ship.

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## xenia

*​World in shock at Israels deadly Gaza ship raid *
Monday, 31 May, 2010 

ANKARA: Shock and outrage swept the globe Monday after Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip, as the Jewish state's foes and allies closed ranks in condemning the deadly raid.

*The UN's rights chief Navi Pillay said she was shocked at the violence of the raid*, which left at least 10 dead, many of them reportedly Turks, while the *European Union demanded a full inquiry from Tel-Aviv.*

As the Hamas urged world Muslims to rise up in protest, police struggled to hold back an angry crowd of hundreds outside the Israeli consulate in Turkey's biggest city Istanbul.

Furious protesters shouted Damn Israel outside the residence of *Israel's ambassador to Ankara, who was summoned for immediate talks as Turkey warned of irreparable consequences to bilateral ties*.

This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations, a written statement said.

*By targeting civilians, Israel has once again shown its disregard for human life and peaceful initiatives, Ankara said.*

Israel claimed its naval forces were attacked by activists and that both sides used live fire, after they stormed six ships bound for besieged Gaza with thousands of tonnes of aid and hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists aboard.

*But Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denounced the raid as inhuman Zionist regime action.*

*Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas declared three days of mourning over the massacre, while the Arab League chief Amr Mussa called it a crime and said the 22-country body was consulting on its next step.*

*Kuwait's parliament speaker condemned the storming of the flotilla, which was carrying 16 Kuwaitis, including an MP, as a heinous Israeli crime.*

*In Europe, condemnation was equally swift.*

The European Union demanded Israel mount a full inquiry, with foreign affairs chief *Catherine Ashton demanding an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of crossings to Gaza.*

Spain  the current European Union president  Sweden and Greece summoned the Israeli ambassadors to their capitals to demand explanations, *with Madrid slamming the operation as unacceptable.*

*Greece, which had some 30 nationals on board the flotilla, also withdrew from joint military exercises with Israel in protest at the raid.*
*French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said he was deeply shocked by the Israeli raid and insisted nothing can justify such violence.

Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle also said he was deeply concerned about the deaths.*

The bloody ending to the high-profile mission to deliver supplies to Gaza came on the eve of a meeting in Washington between President Barack Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

*Maen Bashur, a Lebanese activist and coordinator for a group called End the Blockade on Gaza, said they had expected the convoy to be attacked by the Israelis and considered those seized on board the ship as war prisoners.*

For that reason we asked Hezbollah's leadership to act accordingly, Bashur said.

When asked whether he was encouraging the Shia militant group to launch a cross-border raid and seize Israeli hostages, Bashur responded: Hezbollah's leadership is wise and knows how to behave.

A Cyprus MEP Kyriacos Triantafyllides, who was prevented at the last minute from joining the aid mission, told the Cypriot news agency CNA that activists had expected a strong reaction from Israel.

But nobody believed it would come to this point where they would face something akin to an invading army, he said.


DAWN.COM | World | World in shock at Israel?s deadly Gaza ship raid


----------



## Ahmad

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they allow fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....



Palestine is even smaller than the Naszi state(israel), what can you say about that? dont you see that the israelis are killing palestinians on daily basis? dont you see they are dying from hunger, bullet etc? dont you see how the Nazis(zionists) are stealing their land on daily basis and systematically? shame on the Nazis(Israelis) for their crimes against humanity, shame on America for its uncondistional support to Israel to supres and kill palestinians, pray for the fall of america.

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## Marxist

BENNY said:


> YouTube - help for gazza? shocking picture about what relly happend there



Interesting video,it shows what happened or what lead to the incident..


----------



## SpArK

self delete


----------



## Abu Basit

DesiGuy said:


> ca'mon i am saying again and again, don't stay in the past.
> 
> 
> America itself is victim of terrorism NOW.
> 
> 
> Israel is America alley, but that does not mean America is supporting Israel in all way.
> 
> 
> And why America is not saying anything?
> 
> well, we got to wait to see that.



ok lets wait and see What big comes out from the Terrorist states of America. 

America supports Israel in all the dirty things it do!


----------



## Loki23

Areesh said:


> The post typical from a Zionist mind set. The never ending cry about so called holocausts of Europe and south asia.
> 
> Zionism is getting stronger in India.



Hmm..so called holocausts? Dont expect anything better from the Children of Zia, who has Palestinian blood on his hand too! Killing Palestinians on the orders of King Hussein of Jordan in 1970 ...


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

umairp said:


> What the hell are you talking about?
> Daniel Pearl was not killed by Pakistani Security forces. whereas these journalist were attacked by Israel defense force.
> 
> 
> Secondly, are you saying that the troops who stormed the ship were non state actors?



Yes Sir you are right in argument that Daniel Pearl was indeed killed by non state actors..whereas these action against Turkish ship were by the Israeli state.

And hence according to UNCLOS laws any deaths on Turkish vessel are under Turkish jurisdiction..any formal action has to initiated by Turkey..any ways all we r discussing is a Mooh point..as all the Pakistanis are safe.


----------



## Desert Fox

BENNY said:


> Fool..... that is the official statement of Netanyahu not mine.. i just posted it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FULL TEXT - Statement by Israel's Netanyahu on flotilla deaths | Reuters
> 
> *I thought most of us followed basic ENGLISH.*



and when did i quote your name BENNY? i said "indians", not BENNY!

go back a few pages and see indians sympathizing with israel's criminal actions!


----------



## Evil Flare

UN Webcast


----------



## SpArK

SilentNinja said:


> and when did i quote your name BENNY? i said "indians", not BENNY!
> 
> go back a few pages and see indians sympathizing with israel's criminal actions!



*Ok i edited my post.

I don't understand why some of us are bringing Pakistan in to this context. Its an act of terror and all acts of terror should be condemned.*

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## Abu Basit

SilentNinja said:


> go back a few pages and see indians sympathizing with israel's criminal actions!



Why am i not surprised
indian terrorists supporting israeli terrorists.....

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## SpArK

*Arabs furious over deadly Israel raid, demand UN action*


DOHA  Arab countries slammed Israel's deadly raid Monday against a Gaza-bound aid flotilla as a "crime" and "state terrorism" while they urged the United Nations to hold the Jewish state accountable.

"We condemn this crime, taken against a humanitarian mission and people. They were trying to help people. They were not on a military mission. Everyone should condemn this," Arab League chief Amr Mussa told AFP.

Mussa warned that the Israeli action meant "everything" was now left "hanging in the air," including US-brokered proximity talks that only started on May 9 between the Jewish state and the Palestinians.

"This is another message, a very powerful message, that Israel does not want peace, is not ready to enter into peace," Mussa said on the sidelines of a World Economic Forum summit in the Qatari capital.

"Lifting the siege (on Gaza) should be part of any confidence-building measures, any preparation for a successful round of proximity talks," he added.

Mussa said he had called a meeting of the Arab League council to be held on Tuesday to discuss the attack.

"We are all very angry," he said. "Tomorrow, there will be a collective position taken."

At least nine people were killed when Israeli commandos at dawn raided a convoy of ships carrying aid to the blockaded Gaza Strip.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak slammed the use of "excessive and unjustified force" in the raid, while the foreign ministry summoned the Israeli ambassador to express its condemnation.

Jordan, the only other Arab country along with Egypt to have a peace treaty with Israel, handed the Israeli charge d'affairs a protest note against what Information Minister Nabil Sharif described as a "heinous crime."

Protests swept several Arab capitals with over 2,000 people taking to the street of Amman demanding the closure of the Israeli embassy while thousands demonstrated nationwide in Lebanon.

Saudi Arabia condemned the "massacre committed by Israel" and urged the international community "to "assume its responsibility in face of (Israel's) aggressions," the SPA news agency said, quoting a government statement.

In Damascus, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and visiting Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri slammed the "heinous crime" and the "flagrant violations for the most basic human rights," SANA state news agency said.

The two leaders also warned that Israel's acts "threaten to pull the Middle East into a war whose consequences will not be limited to the region."

In Beirut Hezbollah MP Hassan Fadlallah echoed the warning saying if the international community does not take action quickly "the situation in the region will get worse."

The six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) condemned the attack saying it was an act of "state terrorism" in a statement issued by its secretary general Abdul Rahman al-Attiya.

"Israel believes it is not accountable in international law for its acts. This has allowed it to use excessive military force against innocent civilians," he said.

Attiya called on the international community to "hunt the Israelis who were behind this crime, in order to bring them in front of the International Criminal Court."

Qatari Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani condemned the raid, branding it an "act of piracy."

"The crimes that were committed at dawn today... remind all of us that there is an unjust blockade" in place against Gaza, Sheikh Hamad told the opening session of the World Economic Forum.

Sheikh Hamad called for an end to Israel's crippling blockade of Gaza, which it has maintained since Hamas took power in the impoverished, overcrowded territory in 2007.

"All those who speak of justice and freedom and democracy are now required to do something to break this blockade," he said.

Kuwait, which has 16 of its citizens on board the aid flotilla, urged the permanent members of the UN Security Council to press Israel to ensure their safety.

The United Arab Emirates also called upon the "international community to assume its responsibilities in face of the Israeli barbaric aggression," in a statement carried by WAM state news agency.

UAE Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan urged UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon to conduct an "international investigation in the attack and present a comprehensive report to the United Nations."

Oman said the attack "violates international law."

Pro-Palestinian activists have landed with aid in Gaza five times, with another three attempts unsuccessful since their first such sea voyage in August 2008.

Copyright © 2010 AFP.


----------



## Evil Flare

I must admit it ... Indian Loves Israel so much , they'll defend Israel no matter what Israel has done ...

You people just open Indian news Websites ..

No Front page news about this Barbaric news in Hindustan times ..

No Front page news in India Times .. Hidden under many links ...

No Front page News in NDTV 

& the list carry ON .....



Even CNN & BBC is reporting this news on Front pages & updating ...

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## prototype

Areesh said:


> Being an Indian it is beyond your level of comprehension. So no need to roll on the floor like a dumba**.



care to enlighten me how u disintedrate ussr,or otherwise i can only do is roll on floor hearing the dumba**


----------



## DesiGuy

Aamir Zia said:


> I must admit it ... Indian Loves Israel so much , they'll defend Israel no matter what Israel has done ...
> 
> You people just open Indian news Websites ..
> 
> No news about this Barbaric news in Hindustan times ..
> 
> No Front page news in India Times .. Hidden under many links ...
> 
> No News in NDTV
> 
> & the list carry ON .....
> 
> 
> 
> Even CNN & BBC is reporting this news on Front pages & updating ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Your favorite TOI is reporting!!!*
> 
> World News, News of World, Top World News, World Breaking Headlines - Times of India

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## SpArK

Aamir Zia said:


> I must admit it ... Indian Loves Israel so much , they'll defend Israel no matter what Israel has done ...
> 
> You people just open Indian news Websites ..
> 
> No news about this Barbaric news in Hindustan times ..
> 
> No Front page news in India Times .. Hidden under many links ...
> 
> No News in NDTV
> 
> & the list carry ON .....
> 
> 
> 
> Even CNN & BBC is reporting this news on Front pages & updating ...



The Hindu : News / International : Syria, Lebanon say flotilla attack can lead to war

Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert - World - ibnlive

Turkey accuses Israel of 'state terror', recalls envoy over fleet raid- Hindustan Times


*THANK YOU*


----------



## Abu Basit

Aamir Zia said:


> I must admit it ... Indian Loves Israel so much , they'll defend Israel no matter what Israel has done ...
> 
> You people just open Indian news Websites ..
> 
> No news about this Barbaric news in Hindustan times ..
> 
> No Front page news in India Times .. Hidden under many links ...
> 
> No News in NDTV
> 
> & the list carry ON .....
> 
> 
> 
> Even CNN & BBC is reporting this news on Front pages & updating ...



how can one terrorist state report other terrorist state's terrorism?


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

Abu Basit said:


> Why am i not surprised
> indian terrorists supporting israeli terrorists.....



where are we supporting Israelis...plz Quote....

Can't keep India out of your minds ..... can you ? Now go cry to master U.S.A


----------



## Evil Flare




----------



## Areesh

Loki said:


> Hmm..so called holocausts? Dont expect anything better from the Children of Zia, who has Palestinian blood on his hand too! Killing Palestinians on the orders of King Hussein of Jordan in 1970 ...




No need to defend your Zionist pal buddy. I know they are your dearest allies. We don't want to hear the dumb rant from nehru's kids.




prototype said:


> care to enlighten me how u disintedrate ussr,or otherwise i can only do is roll on floor hearing the dumba**



No I don't want to enlighten you. You are an Indian so it might be difficult for you to understand many issues.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

BENNY said:


> The Hindu : News / International : Syria, Lebanon say flotilla attack can lead to war
> 
> Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert - World - ibnlive
> 
> Turkey accuses Israel of 'state terror', recalls envoy over fleet raid- Hindustan Times
> 
> *THANK YOU*



lolz.....they love  and later getting Embarrassed... So much India hatred it even effects their opinions ..


----------



## SpArK

*No Pakistani died in Israel's flotilla attack: Malik*
2010-05-31 23:40:00

No Pakistani citizen died or was injured in Israel's raid Monday on the freedom flotilla ship carrying aid for the people of Gaza, Interior Minister Rehman Malik said.

There were three Pakistani citizens on board the ship and all were safe, Malik was quoted as saying by Online news agency.

Interpol has given information regarding the three Pakistani citizens. The Interpol secretary general played a pivotal role in this regard, Malik said

No Pakistani died in Israel's flotilla attack: Malik

sify news, *India*.


----------



## TaimiKhan

*Guys, write and paste your posts in simple Black color, where you need to show some importance, highlight that part only. 

Try not using the Blue, Red or other color while you post. 

Keep uniformity. *

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## Awesome

Were they carrying any weapons to Hamas? Just aid.

Somebody really ought to put these terrorists in their place.


----------



## Evil Flare

TheMiddleMan said:


> Israel, you guys have BALLS!!! Bahahah, god bless!!!





Yes ... 

Terrorists always have Balls


----------



## Comet

TheMiddleMan said:


> Israel, you guys have BALLS!!! Bahahah, god bless!!!



YES they do..... apparently at the wrong place. Because they have been thinking with their balls.

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## WAQAS119

Aamir Zia said:


> I must admit it ... Indian Loves Israel so much , they'll defend Israel no matter what Israel has done ...
> 
> You people just open Indian news Websites ..
> 
> No news about this Barbaric news in Hindustan times ..
> 
> No Front page news in India Times .. Hidden under many links ...
> 
> No News in NDTV
> 
> & the list carry ON .....
> 
> 
> 
> Even CNN & BBC is reporting this news on Front pages & updating ...



and also here in this forum you will notice that except one, every indian is supporting Israel's terrorism.
As far as i know, a common indian will by no mean support israeli terrorism. Thus conclusion is this:
Most of Indian Members are not common indians and are recruits of indian establishment and agencies, following the foot steps of their boss i.e., Israel
Israel Recruits Army Of Bloggers To Troll Anti-War Websites

http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-recruits-army-of-bloggers-to-troll-anti-war-websites.html


----------



## Areesh

TheMiddleMan said:


> Israel, you guys have BALLS!!! Bahahah, god bless!!!



Yeah they have balls. They lack everything except that.


----------



## Neither Right Nor Wrong

Asim Aquil said:


> Were they carrying any weapons to Hamas? Just aid.
> 
> Somebody really ought to put these terrorists in their place.



Yes "somebody" ..but the question is " who will bell the cat"??


----------



## Areesh

WAQAS119 said:


> and also here in this forum you will notice that *except one*, every indian is supporting Israel's terrorism.
> As far as i know, a common indian will by no mean support israeli terrorism. Thus conclusion is this:
> Most of Indian Members are not common indians and are recruits of indian establishment and agencies, following the foot steps of their boss i.e., Israel
> Israel Recruits Army Of Bloggers To Troll Anti-War Websites
> 
> Israel Recruits Army Of Bloggers To Troll Anti-War Websites



Who is that one Indian?


----------



## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> Interesting video,it shows what happened or what lead to the incident..



what do you think the guys in ship should have done? they got raided by the best commondos and you expect them to stay idle? i have seen alot of hypocracy from some indian members in this incident.

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## T-Faz

*Breaking news, the terrorists have attacked Jinnah Hospital to kill the terrorist caught in the attack on the mosque on Friday.*


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

WAQAS119 said:


> and also here in this forum you will notice that except one, every indian is supporting Israel's terrorism.
> As far as i know, a common indian will by no mean support israeli terrorism. Thus conclusion is this:
> Most of Indian Members are not common indians and are recruits of indian establishment and agencies, following the foot steps of their boss i.e., Israel
> Israel Recruits Army Of Bloggers To Troll Anti-War Websites
> 
> Israel Recruits Army Of Bloggers To Troll Anti-War Websites



   

woohooo!!! Am MOSSAD agent ...Hell yeah !!

plz...i cant stop laughing


----------



## prototype

Areesh said:


> No I don't want to enlighten you. You are an Indian so it might be difficult for you to understand many issues.



typical zamid hamid responce


----------



## Marxist

Ahmad said:


> what do you think the guys in ship should have done? they got raided by the best commondos and you expect them to stay idle? i have seen alot of hypocracy from some indian members in this incident.



i am not supporting the kills by Israeli forces,but the video shows attacks weren't one sided.


----------



## Xeric

T-Faz said:


> *Breaking news, the terrorists have attacked Jinnah Hospital to kill the terrorist caught in the attack on the mosque on Friday.*



An attempt to divert the attention from the current problem perhaps?


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

T-Faz said:


> *Breaking news, the terrorists have attacked Jinnah Hospital to kill the terrorist caught in the attack on the mosque on Friday.*



f**Kin ASsh**les attacked a hospital.... ..


----------



## DesiGuy

T-Faz said:


> *Breaking news, the terrorists have attacked Jinnah Hospital to kill the terrorist caught in the attack on the mosque on Friday.*





Geo: 8 people have been killed so far.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

xeric said:


> An attempt to divert the attention from the current problem perhaps?



Terrorists certainly would not do such an attempt...then who else ?


----------



## MilesTogo

Aamir Zia said:


> I must admit it ... Indian Loves Israel so much , they'll defend Israel no matter what Israel has done ...
> 
> You people just open Indian news Websites ..
> 
> No Front page news about this Barbaric news in Hindustan times ..
> 
> No Front page news in India Times .. Hidden under many links ...
> 
> No Front page News in NDTV
> 
> & the list carry ON .....
> 
> 
> 
> Even CNN & BBC is reporting this news on Front pages & updating ...



It is on the front page of all most all of them and even the top headline at certain points in time (may be not now).


----------



## Xeric

Marxist said:


> i am not supporting the kills by Israeli forces,but the video shows attacks weren't one sided.



The question is of not being one or two sided, but who initiated what.

i dont think you'll sit and smile if you would receive a slap.


----------



## Ahmad

T-Faz said:


> *Breaking news, the terrorists have attacked Jinnah Hospital to kill the terrorist caught in the attack on the mosque on Friday.*



what? is it related to Ahmadi mosque attack? perhaps they want to kill him to burry the evidence. is the bastard dead of alive? by the way lets discuse in anothe thread.

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## Areesh

T-Faz said:


> *Breaking news, the terrorists have attacked Jinnah Hospital to kill the terrorist caught in the attack on the mosque on Friday.*



Why is that terrorist is getting medical treatment in the Jinnah hospital? Why he isn't been getting medical treatment in some other place where common public don't go to.


----------



## WAQAS119

Emperor Palpatine said:


> woohooo!!! Am MOSSAD agent ...Hell yeah !!
> 
> plz...i cant stop laughing



I knew this was coming.....


----------



## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> i am not supporting the kills by Israeli forces,but the video shows attacks weren't one sided.



the commondos attacked the ship in international waters, if somebody attacks you , what will you do in return?

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## SpArK

Guys follow the news by T-faz on following link

Duniya TV: Pakistan channel,Free online news tv channels, Tv, Live, News, News channel, Internet tv, BBC

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## DesiGuy

There are at least 800 people admitted in the Jinnah Hospital at the moment


----------



## WAQAS119

xeric said:


> An attempt to divert the attention from the current problem perhaps?



by f****** mosad agents.


----------



## Areesh

DesiGuy said:


> There are at least 800 people admitted in the Jinnah Hospital at the moment



When our whole govt and establishment would stop behaving like a dumb.


They are simply stupid jerks who never learn from anything.


----------



## Marxist

xeric said:


> The question is of not being one or two sided, but who initiated what.
> 
> i dont think you'll sit and smile if you would receive a slap.



I was commenting on the video which shows Israeli commandos are attacked

i wont do anything to get a slap from others (ie I Avoid such situations),or i wont go to a place where i will be slapped.


----------



## Areesh

prototype said:


> typical zamid hamid responce



And you watch again and again this zaid hamid even it soars your a**.


----------



## T-Faz

*I think someone big can probably be implicated in the evidence from the terrorist caught, that is why they tried to kill him.

He was sent to Jinnah Hospital on the request of someone higher up.

The person will be used to find and implicate someone, my finger is on the Sharif Brothers.*


----------



## WAQAS119

Marxist said:


> I was commenting on the video which shows Israeli commandos are attacked
> 
> i wont do anything to get a slap from others (ie I Avoid such situations),or i wont go to a place where i will be slapped.



so you want to say that to avoid slap the israeli terrorists killed aid workers.


----------



## Marxist

WAQAS119 said:


> so you want to say that to avoid slap the israeli terrorists killed aid workers.



nope i was quating xeric sirs comment...its not related to Isreal or aid workers...


----------



## Ahmad

Lets discuse the Jinah hospital attack in its thread.


----------



## DesiGuy

Ahmad said:


> Lets discuse the Jinah hospital attack in its thread.





Yep, this one is discussed enough!


----------



## Barrett

Ahmad said:


> no my friend dont say that. jewish have good and bad people just like us muslims, what if the others condemn the whole muslim world because of OBL and Mullah Omar actions? you should know that the jews were also part of this ship. instead of jewish, say zionists.



Well brother its a good thing that your morality is still kicking in but don't quote me out of context, I never said all Jews are terrorists or bad people.

Just like all Muslims are not terrorists but the propaganda the west has very successfully spreaded is that all terrorists are Muslims.

Why weren't the Nazis called christian terrorists or the Tamil tigers called Hindu extremists or the Irish(IRA), Sikhs(Khalistan) ever affiliated with their religion? 

Why is it that every time a Muslim is involved in anything he is called a Muslim terrorist, Muslim extremist, Muslim fanatic etc etc.

Why do they give our religion a bad name, when it has nothing to do with the acts of those ignorant and religiously illiterate people. 

The people who killed innocent civilians today were Jews and I have every right to call them Jewish Terrorists.

I am entitled to my own views/opinions and you are most welcome to disagree.


----------



## Marxist

*Israeli lawyers: Raid violates int'l law*

The State will have to provide a legal justification to the High Court of Justice on Tuesday morning for its takeover by force of eight boats which were on their way to deliver humanitarian goods to the Gaza Strip.

On Monday, a group of lawyers including Avigdor Feldman, Yiftah Cohen, Itamar Mann and Omer Shatz petitioned the High Court, charging that Israel had violated the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea by capturing the boats in international waters.

The petitioners are demanding that the court rule that the sea operation was illegal, and that the passengers be released and allowed to return to their boats, which should be permitted to reach the Gaza Strip.

"To the degree that the State adheres to international law, including the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas, we see that this was an act of piracy, albeit by a state, but one which can be regarded as a robbery by sea of the passengers in the convoy, beginning with the takeover of the vessels, the seizing of the goods on board&#8230;and ending with the arrest and hijacking of the passengers and, apparently, the act of bringing them by force to Israeli territory."

*Israel did not sign the convention.*

The lawyers wrote that these acts constitute an international crime and that they establish the right to apply the principle of universal jurisdiction by any tribunal, especially by the courts of those countries whose flags were flown by the vessels that were attacked."

The petitioners also referred to other precedents in international law which, they argued, justified the demands of the petitioners. One was the so-called Lotus Case, in 1927, which involved a French ship which accidentally rammed a Turkish vessel in international waters, killing eight Turks. The French vessel was brought to Turkey and the captain was put on trial. France appealed the Turkish action, arguing that it (France) alone had jurisdiction on the high seas for its own vessels. However, the court ruled that sovereign states may act in anyway they please on the high seas as long as they do not violate an explicit prohibition.

The UN convention calls for freedom of navigation in international waters, states that the high seas shall be reserved for peaceful purposes and that no state my validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty.

The third source referred to by the petitioners, which they said was part of customary law and therefore binding on Israel, was the 1804 Murray vs. Charming Betsy case, in which the court ruled that even during wartime, the US army may not seize goods that are not for military use in international waters."

Robbie Sabel, the former legal adviser to the foreign ministry, told The Jerusalem Post that the state would almost certainly argue that the seizure of the vessels was an executive act with which the court was not authorized to intervene.

Sabel also said that Israel considered the Gaza Strip hostile territory which is engaged in armed conflict against it. The UN Convention on the Laws of the Sea did not deal with armed conflict.

Meanwhile, the laws of war recognized naval blockades as a legal and established part of the laws of armed conflict. There were many examples of countries that have maintained naval blockades in international waters and they have not been declared illegal, Sabel maintained.

He added that neither of the other arguments regarding the Lotus Case and Murray vs. Charming Betsy were relevant to the present situation.

Israeli lawyers: Raid violates int'l law


----------



## WAQAS119

Ahmad said:


> Lets discuse the Jinah hospital attack in its thread.



another thread is going on for this discussion..


----------



## Ahmad

Emotions ran high at a protest in central London today where hundreds of people turned out to condemn the killing of pro-Palestinian activists by Israeli commandos.

A number of British people were among those on the flotilla bound for Gaza and many of the protesters in Whitehall were anxiously awaiting news of relatives, friends and colleagues.

Kate Hudson, chairwoman of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, brushed aside tears as she expressed her concern for Sarah Colborne of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC), Kevin Ovenden of Viva Palestina, and Ismail Patel, chairman of the Palestinian rights group Friends of Al-Aqsa.

"It is devastating and deplorable that the Israeli forces have attacked civilians on the flotilla," she said.

"We have close friends on the boat on which people were killed and we are here waiting for news. We are trying to get through to them, but we are not getting any answers."

Hundreds of activists carrying flags and banners and shouting "Free Palestine" gathered outside Downing Street, blocking Whitehall, before marching to the Israeli embassy in Kensington.

Maha Rahwanji, 35, the daughter of Palestinian exiles, who lives in London and works in adult education, wept as she revealed she had joined the protest on the anniversary of her father's death.

"Instead of being at a memorial service, after he died 20 years ago for the cause, instead of being at his graveside to remember him, I am mourning the loss of another 20 people," she said. "What has happened to the flotilla is just heartbreaking."

Betty Hunter, general secretary of the PSC, one of the groups that organised the protest, called for the British government to "end all links with Israel until it ends its siege and occupation".


----------



## Bas_tum_Pak

blackwater 007 said:


> Wat is the truth??? Truth is Muslim world is not united. not only Pakistan and Turkey whole muslim world sitting in US lap. they rely on US for everything. It's not in hand of zaid hamid its in hand of your leaders. In dreams zaid hamid can make whole world into Pakistan. Sapno me jo merji kari jao. last night he came to delhi and erect pakistan flag on redfort.



You are trolling , I am Saying about his above posted video in which he is saying Truth about Israel recent Attacks and you are still in Zaid Hamid's Complex.


He is saying 'Israel' is terrorist because he attcked inocents inside 'International Water''
If You don't Agree then you need to learn what is 'Humanity'


----------



## Xeric

Marxist said:


> I was commenting on the video which shows Israeli commandos are attacked


Lolzz... and so you agree that you were doing so out of context.

No fore or background, cherry-pick the pieces and cut paste what suites you.

Guess what, i am not impressed.



> i wont do anything to get a slap from others (ie I Avoid such situations),or i wont go to a place where i will be slapped.


Is it fear or something more understandable?

Damn!

By your concepts, organizations like ICRC, Doctors Without Borders, International Rescue Committee etc etc could never had existed!!


----------



## Ahmad

Barrett said:


> Well brother its a good thing that your morality is still kicking in but don't quote me out of context, *I never said all Jews are terrorists or bad people.*



That is good, but make sure to be careful with the wordings otherwise there are some people who divert the whole attention from the crimes of israelis and turn it to an anti semitic issue, we have seen this before in a very large scale. instead of jewish, say zionists, that will be alot more effective.


----------



## Silverfalcon

*Truth is stranger than fiction.*


----------



## Barrett

Ahmad said:


> That is good, but make sure to be careful with the wordings otherwise there are some people who divert the whole attention from the crimes of israelis and turn it to an anti semitic issue, we have seen this before in a very large scale. instead of jewish, say zionists, that will be alot more effective.



I wipe my *** with their antisemitism


----------



## Ahmad

Protests in london and other uk cities against the crimes of zionists:


----------



## Ahmad

Barrett said:


> I wipe my *** with their antisemitism



i dont bloody care what you do, but try to play smart and out of emotions.


----------



## Usama86

WOW..... Zaid Hamid can really set the indian ***** on fire, u guys really start pissing in ur pants lol so funny. and some one here held Pakistani Army responsible for genocide... wonder if hundreds of thousands of indian soldiers in Kashmire have been distributing flowers to the civilians there. I hate Adolf Hitler for not completely wiping off these Zionist Jews. Holocast is just a larger then life kinda story to gain the sympathy of the west. Bloody Zionists.


----------



## Usama86

And i dont understand why do Indains have to get into this discussion at all, Indian govt has expressed sorrow at Israil's use of force but the Indian members here are in complete support of Israiel. Don't bring on the bullshit about Zia's children, zaid hamid brainwashing bla bla bla even without all these people we would still have the same views about Israil. Palistine is a place which has been fought over for centuries, its a religious historic issue and the sentiments of the whole Muslim world are the same on this issue. Mohammad Ali Jinnah said that Israil will be a bastard state and we will not accept it even before Pakistan was born.

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## Jackdaws

Defending Israel? Are you completely off your rocker? As an Indian, I think what the Israelis did was pathetic today. You don't attack an aid convoy - this is no different from Taliban attacking a NATO aid convoy. India has stood by the Palestinian cause through thick and thin unlike the Pakistanis who were gladly buying Israeli weapons to fight the Soviets and thus funding the killing of innocent Palestinians. While Pakistan and its CENTO allies were calling Yaseer Arafat a terrorist, India always supported him. Please don't shed crocodile tears for the poor Palestinians.

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## Cityboy

It is a terror act. .may innocent soul rip. .lets see what uncle sam says


----------



## Maj. Gel. Tariq khan

We will welcome israel for war thousand time but problem is this if they remain till reach to just our boder, coz if in 1973, sixteen of PAF pilots in YOM KIPPUR WAR. During the coflict, when a secret attack was planed to attack Syrian Dumayr airbase, PAF intercept the Israeli air defence and shot coming aircraft from Israel in Israel soil air, It was MIRAGE IIICJ, shoted down by Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi using Mig29, Mig aircraft are new to PAF Pilots they didnt use it before, but still best flyed, pilot of downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz, who ejected and remaining Israeli fighter abort the mission. NUR KHAN, who was the wing commander, received praised from ISRAELI PERSIDENT EZER WEIZMAN, WHO WROTE IN HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY THAT: " HE WAS A FORMIDABLE FELLOW AND I WAS GLAD THAT HE WAS PAKISTANI NOT EGYPTIAN". 
If they cant save them from us in 70's and If we can crush their airforce on their soil air in 70's, its 2010 you can think what we make of them now, specialy when they are in our soil for fight... Hahaa


----------



## anathema

Misfortune...Israel should be held accountable for the actions that they took in International waters. They should be brought in front of a international panel and be asked for reasons why they did.

On second thought - A second Aid flotilla should leave for Israel to see how Israel reacts now. 

RIP to all dead.


----------



## Srinivas

Desperate situations demand desperate measures that what Israel is doing right now. Blocking food supplies for terrorists will do good.


----------



## Loki23

Usama86 said:


> And i dont understand why do Indains have to get into this discussion at all, Indian govt has expressed sorrow at Israil's use of force but the Indian members here are in complete support of Israiel. Don't bring on the bullshit about Zia's children, zaid hamid brainwashing bla bla bla even without all these people we would still have the same views about Israil. Palistine is a place which has been fought over for centuries, its a religious historic issue and the sentiments of the whole Muslim world are the same on this issue. Mohammad Ali Jinnah said that Israil will be a bastard state and we will not accept it even before Pakistan was born.



Oh i know that about Palestine, the religious historic fight. Any perceived muslim sense of injustice howsoever removed from the Middle East can be and is conveniently pegged to Palestinians, such an easy explanation. Small mercy that Turkey hasnt called it a genocide (you know 1 muslim killed -> genocide, hundreds of thousands of armenians killed by Turks -> not a genocide) the irony is delicious especially in light of what they have done to the Kurds of their own country:

KurdishMedia.com: News about Kurds and Kurdistan


----------



## alibaz

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Desperate situations demand desperate measures that what Israel is doing right now. Blocking food supplies for terrorists will do good.



Which terrorists are you talking about. Palestinians ! 

Are you a human being


----------



## gubbi

Barrett said:


> Why weren't the Nazis called christian terrorists or the Tamil tigers called Hindu extremists or the Irish(IRA), Sikhs(Khalistan) ever affiliated with their religion?
> 
> Why is it that every time a Muslim is involved in anything he is called a Muslim terrorist, Muslim extremist, Muslim fanatic etc etc.
> 
> I am entitled to my own views/opinions and you are most welcome to disagree.



This might seem highly controversial, but let me call a spade a spade. The reason why most terrorist organizations are not called by their religious affiliation is because, as sick as their ideologies might be, they don't go about doing their "business" "in the name of God". Show me one instance where the IRA, LTTE has evoked the names of their GOD(s) to justify their "struggle". All these organizations had political or nationalist ideologies, while TTP, AQ, Afghan Taliban, Let, HM etc groups have a religious fundamentalist ideology. Big difference. 

That being said, on topic.

I notice to things here:

1. The aid flotilla was planned for a long time and Israel had sufficient information about the intentions of the aid flotilla. In that context, it was repeatedly requested of the aid workers - independent wokers who took upon themselves to do vigilante justice - not to undertake the voyage by the Israeli authorities because the NGOs were already working in Gaza under the auspices of the UN. (I will save discussions on illegitimacy of the occupation for another thread). But considering the present situation (read occupation), Israel was in its rights to ask independent aid workers (not affiliated to any international aid body) to keep off.

2. Inspite of knowing the intentions and the objectives of the aid workers/ flotilla Israel chose to confront the boats. Well the only and major blunder committed by Israel was attacking the flotilla in International waters - flouting all the international blue water rules and regulations. Had the confrontation been in Israeli waters, the world leaders would have quickly defended Israel and IMHO, Israel would then be in her rights. But this incident in international waters is to be condemned in the strongest sense of the term.

So basically two wrongs:
1. instigating confrontation by undertaking the journey, independently without the support of International aid bodies, despite being repeatedly told/requested/asked not to do so.

2. attacking aid workers, albeit independent, in international waters by a nation state.


----------



## Evil Flare

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Desperate situations demand desperate measures that what Israel is doing right now. Blocking food supplies for terrorists will do good.





OK Mr Moosad Paid Blogger ....


----------



## Dr.Evil

There will be more business for Flag Makers, They would be stocking up Israeli Flags to be used for waving and burning.


----------



## alibaz

gubbi said:


> I notice to things here:
> 
> 1. The aid flotilla was planned for a long time and Israel had sufficient information about the intentions of the aid flotilla. In that context, it was repeatedly requested of the aid workers - independent wokers who took upon themselves to do vigilante justice - not to undertake the voyage by the Israeli authorities because the NGOs were already working in Gaza under the auspices of the UN. (I will save discussions on illegitimacy of the occupation for another thread). But considering the present situation (read occupation), Israel was in its rights to ask independent aid workers (not affiliated to any international aid body) to keep off.




Israel has no right to decide who should support Palestinian and who should not. Its their land and they should be allowed to live peacefully.



gubbi said:


> 2. Inspite of knowing the intentions and the objectives of the aid workers/ flotilla Israel chose to confront the boats. Well the only and major blunder committed by Israel was attacking the flotilla in International waters - flouting all the international blue water rules and regulations.



Game over sir, 



gubbi said:


> Had the confrontation been in Israeli waters, the world leaders would have quickly defended Israel and IMHO, Israel would then be in her rights. But this incident in international waters is to be condemned in the strongest sense of the term.



Still they were unarmed. Why they should be killed at max should have checked ships (objectionable) and thats about all.


----------



## alibaz

Dr.Evil said:


> There will be more business for Flag Makers, They would be stocking up Israeli Flags to be used for waving and burning.



Dushman maray tey khusian na karie

sujana vi tur jana aye


----------



## Desert Fox

sukhoi_30MKI said:


> Desperate situations demand desperate measures that what Israel is doing right now. Blocking food supplies for terrorists will do good.



my point proven, that indians sympathize with israel for what they to those aid workers on board those ships.

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## alibaz

NEW YORK: The United Nations Security Council has begun an emergency session to discuss an Israeli raid on a flotilla of ships seeking to take aid to the Gaza Strip.

The talks were requested by Lebanon, which holds the council's rotating presidency until 0400 GMT on Tuesday.

The country's President Saad Hariri "asked the Lebanese delegation at the UN to call for an emergency meeting over what happened today," a Lebanese official told a foreign news agency earlier.

Israel faces a wave of condemnation over the raid, in which at least nine people were killed.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said Monday he was "shocked" by the deadly Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla and demanded a full investigation.

"I am shocked by reports of killings and injuries of people on boats carrying supplies for Gaza," the UN chief said at a press conference in Uganda.

Israel's closest ally Washington said it "deeply regrets the loss of life" and was "working to understand" what caused the "tragedy."

The Jewish state's chief regional partner Turkey responded with fury, scrapping plans for joint war games with Israel and recalling its ambassador, as it warned the "flagrant breach of international law" would have "irreparable consequences" for bilateral ties.

Tens of thousands of furious Turks poured into the streets with protestors in Istanbul burning Israeli flags, shouting "Damn Israel!" and demanding "A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye, revenge, revenge!"

The Vatican voiced "deep sadness and concern" and Middle East peace envoy Tony Blair expressed his "deep regret and shock," as capitals across Europe summoned Israel's ambassadors to explain the assault.

Greece, which had dozens of nationals in the convoy, also pulled out of joint military exercises with Israel as an aid group claimed that commandos in helicopters had fired on a Greek vessel.

Israel said its troops were attacked after they stormed six ships loaded with thousands of tonnes of aid and with hundreds of activists aboard, and that both sides used live fire.

Israel, which has blockaded Gaza since its bitter foe Hamas was elected to power three years ago, had called the expedition illegal and warned it would act to stop it.

Muslim leaders united in condemning what Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas called a "massacre" and Arab League chief Amr Mussa said was a "crime."

Hamas, which rules Gaza urged world Muslims to "rise up" in protest, as Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denounced the raid as "inhuman Zionist regime action."

Lebanon's Prime Minister Saad Hariri described the raid as "dangerous and crazy" and called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, chaired by Beirut until midnight in New York.

Across the country Palestinian refugees and activists demonstrated to denounce the raid, chanting slogans like "Give us weapons, give us weapons and send us on to Gaza."

The UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Richard Falk, called for a worldwide boycott and sanctions against Israel, saying "those Israelis responsible for this lawless and murderous behaviour" should be held criminally accountable.

Pakistan also "strongly condemned" the attack on a "peaceful flotilla," as politicians, lawmakers and journalists protested in Islamabad against Israel.

Egypt condemned the "acts of killing" by Israel forces while Kuwait's parliament speaker said the storming of the flotilla, which was carrying 16 Kuwaitis including an MP, was a "heinous Israeli crime."

And Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, said "there was no basis" for Israel's assault.

In Europe, condemnation was equally swift, with the European Union foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton demanding Israel mount a "full inquiry."

Spain -- the current European Union president -- France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Austria, Greece and Cyprus summoned Israel's respective ambassadors, with Madrid slamming the operation as "unacceptable".

France's President Nicolas Sarkozy accused Israel of a "disproportionate use of force."

Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said he was "deeply concerned" about the deaths, while Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini "deplored" the loss of civilian life.

Russia also condemned a "crude violation" of international law.

British Foreign Secretary William Hague deplored the loss of life, saying Israel must "act with restraint" -- but also said London had warned of the risks of defying the Gaza blockade.

A Cyprus MEP, Kyriacos Triantafyllides, who was involved with the mission, said activists had "expected a strong reaction from Israel."

"But nobody believed it would come to this point, where they would face something akin to an invading army," he said.


http://www.geo.tv/5-31-2010/65939.htm


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## Abasin Turi

talat hussain isnt dead.. may God save him and those others among him.. 
he's safe.. and shame on israelis.. now i wod ask the western world whats teh difference between talibans and IDF...?? yeah there's only one difference ISraelis are beard-less monsters..!

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## adir

This is not a humanity convoy

Soldier: Activists came for war
(Video) Video footage shows brutal attack on troops on board Gaza-bound vessel; soldier says passengers fired at forces, beat them severely using metal bats, knives. We landed barehanded, and they lynched us, he says
Amnon Meranda
Published: 05.31.10, 21:48 / Israel News
VIDEO - Video footage of the raid on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara vessel shows activists on board brutally beating up troops with metal rods and chairs.







The video also shows one soldier being grabbed by some of the activists and being pushed down to the lower deck, sustaining serious wounds. Meanwhile, passengers on the ship kept on beating up the soldiers who landed on the vessel.
Following the takeover of the ship, soldiers displayed for the cameras the knives and other weapons used by the Gaza-bound activists in their attack.

One of the soldiers who took part in the raid and broke his hand in the clash recounted the moments of horror when he and his comrades were assaulted by about 30 activists on board.

After every person came down (from the helicopter,) three or four guys grabbed a hold of him and simply beat him senseless. They lynched us. They were equipped with metal bats, knives, slingshots, and glass bottles. At some point we faced live fire by two guys, he said.

I was among the last to come down, and I saw the guys spread all over, each in another corner, with three or four people around each. I saw a soldier on the ground with two people beating the hell out of him. I pushed them off of him, and they moved on to me and started to beat me up with the poles. This is how I broke my hand apparently, he said. At the time I was not holding a weapon, just like everyone who came down from the rope barehanded and with our paintball guns on our backs.

We faced live ammunition
They came at me and assaulted me. I took them down to the ground. I took a few steps back and pulled out my paintball gun. They charged me while I fired at their legs, he said. One of the bats shattered the weapon, so I moved on to the handgun, so that I have something to hold. At that point my arm wasnt functional.

I saw two of my guys lying on the floor. We were being fired at, with live ammunition, from the corridor. It was bullets. I spotted a muzzle, and one of us fired at the guy. We came in after that and he wasnt there.
There were about 30 people there, the soldier summed up. They simply came for war. We came to talk to them, convince them to come down, yet with every person who came down, they simply charged.

Despite the video footage, Israel had been condemned worldwide over the raid, which claimed the lives of at least nine people. The events at sea also stirred great anger among Arab Israelis, who held rallies and waved PLO flags across the nation. Two police officers sustained light wounds in Umm al-Fahm, in northern Israel, after being stoned by locals.


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## Usama86

Loki said:


> Oh i know that about Palestine, the religious historic fight. Any perceived muslim sense of injustice howsoever removed from the Middle East can be and is conveniently pegged to Palestinians, such an easy explanation. Small mercy that Turkey hasnt called it a genocide (you know 1 muslim killed -> genocide, hundreds of thousands of armenians killed by Turks -> not a genocide) the irony is delicious especially in light of what they have done to the Kurds of their own country:
> 
> KurdishMedia.com: News about Kurds and Kurdistan



The Palestanian struggle is significant not only because its a freedom struggle but also because Jerusolam houses the holy sites of Jews Christian and Muslims. The struggle is not only to free Palistenians but also liberate the Holy sites which are close to every Muslims heart. 

I have gone through the link you provided, an ugly picture it paints. It should be taken up with the relevant authorities but i guess someone from Turkey will be in a better position to reply. Also i think if one starts digging up the past no nation can come out clean, we all have skeletons in the closet.

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## Evil Flare

Please restrain from these kinds of language ... Talk in a civilized manner .

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## Abasin Turi

adir said:


> This is not a humanity convoy
> 
> Soldier: Activists came for war
> (Video) Video footage shows brutal attack on troops on board Gaza-bound vessel; soldier says passengers fired at forces, beat them severely using metal bats, knives. We landed barehanded, and they lynched us, he says
> Amnon Meranda
> Published: 05.31.10, 21:48 / Israel News
> VIDEO - Video footage of the raid on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara vessel shows activists on board brutally beating up troops with metal rods and chairs.
> 
> YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
> 
> 
> The video also shows one soldier being grabbed by some of the activists and being pushed down to the lower deck, sustaining serious wounds. Meanwhile, passengers on the ship kept on beating up the soldiers who landed on the vessel.
> Following the takeover of the ship, soldiers displayed for the cameras the knives and other weapons used by the Gaza-bound activists in their attack.
> 
> One of the soldiers who took part in the raid and broke his hand in the clash recounted the moments of horror when he and his comrades were assaulted by about 30 activists on board.
> 
> After every person came down (from the helicopter,) three or four guys grabbed a hold of him and simply beat him senseless. They lynched us. They were equipped with metal bats, knives, slingshots, and glass bottles. At some point we faced live fire by two guys, he said.
> 
> I was among the last to come down, and I saw the guys spread all over, each in another corner, with three or four people around each. I saw a soldier on the ground with two people beating the hell out of him. I pushed them off of him, and they moved on to me and started to beat me up with the poles. This is how I broke my hand apparently, he said. At the time I was not holding a weapon, just like everyone who came down from the rope barehanded and with our paintball guns on our backs.
> 
> We faced live ammunition
> They came at me and assaulted me. I took them down to the ground. I took a few steps back and pulled out my paintball gun. They charged me while I fired at their legs, he said. One of the bats shattered the weapon, so I moved on to the handgun, so that I have something to hold. At that point my arm wasnt functional.
> 
> I saw two of my guys lying on the floor. We were being fired at, with live ammunition, from the corridor. It was bullets. I spotted a muzzle, and one of us fired at the guy. We came in after that and he wasnt there.
> There were about 30 people there, the soldier summed up. They simply came for war. We came to talk to them, convince them to come down, yet with every person who came down, they simply charged.
> 
> Despite the video footage, Israel had been condemned worldwide over the raid, which claimed the lives of at least nine people. The events at sea also stirred great anger among Arab Israelis, who held rallies and waved PLO flags across the nation. Two police officers sustained light wounds in Umm al-Fahm, in northern Israel, after being stoned by locals.




LIES LIES LIES.. more LIES.... 
huh these lies arent enough you ****** monsters... the world hass seen your fugly face ONCE AGAIN... i bet we should launch a full fledge war against them.. they havent forgotten the name HEBOLLAH have they?? in case you guys have.. we will remind you that name pretty soon ... start counting your days now...


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## adir

Soldier: Activists came for war
(Video) Video footage shows brutal attack on troops on board Gaza-bound vessel; soldier says passengers fired at forces, beat them severely using metal bats, knives. We landed barehanded, and they lynched us, he says
Amnon Meranda
Published: 05.31.10, 21:48 / Israel News
VIDEO - Video footage of the raid on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara vessel shows activists on board brutally beating up troops with metal rods and chairs.

The video also shows one soldier being grabbed by some of the activists and being pushed down to the lower deck, sustaining serious wounds. Meanwhile, passengers on the ship kept on beating up the soldiers who landed on the vessel.Following the takeover of the ship, soldiers displayed for the cameras the knives and other weapons used by the Gaza-bound activists in their attack.

One of the soldiers who took part in the raid and broke his hand in the clash recounted the moments of horror when he and his comrades were assaulted by about 30 activists on board.

After every person came down (from the helicopter,) three or four guys grabbed a hold of him and simply beat him senseless. They lynched us. They were equipped with metal bats, knives, slingshots, and glass bottles. At some point we faced live fire by two guys, he said.

I was among the last to come down, and I saw the guys spread all over, each in another corner, with three or four people around each. I saw a soldier on the ground with two people beating the hell out of him. I pushed them off of him, and they moved on to me and started to beat me up with the poles. This is how I broke my hand apparently, he said. At the time I was not holding a weapon, just like everyone who came down from the rope barehanded and with our paintball guns on our backs.

We faced live ammunition
They came at me and assaulted me. I took them down to the ground. I took a few steps back and pulled out my paintball gun. They charged me while I fired at their legs, he said. One of the bats shattered the weapon, so I moved on to the handgun, so that I have something to hold. At that point my arm wasnt functional.

I saw two of my guys lying on the floor. We were being fired at, with live ammunition, from the corridor. It was bullets. I spotted a muzzle, and one of us fired at the guy. We came in after that and he wasnt there.
There were about 30 people there, the soldier summed up. They simply came for war. We came to talk to them, convince them to come down, yet with every person who came down, they simply charged.

Despite the video footage, Israel had been condemned worldwide over the raid, which claimed the lives of at least nine people. The events at sea also stirred great anger among Arab Israelis, who held rallies and waved PLO flags across the nation. Two police officers sustained light wounds in Umm al-Fahm, in northern Israel, after being stoned by locals.


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## Abasin Turi

adir said:


> Soldier: Activists came for war
> (Video) Video footage shows brutal attack on troops on board Gaza-bound vessel; soldier says passengers fired at forces, beat them severely using metal bats, knives. We landed barehanded, and they lynched us, he says
> Amnon Meranda
> Published: 05.31.10, 21:48 / Israel News
> VIDEO - Video footage of the raid on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara vessel shows activists on board brutally beating up troops with metal rods and chairs.
> 
> The video also shows one soldier being grabbed by some of the activists and being pushed down to the lower deck, sustaining serious wounds. Meanwhile, passengers on the ship kept on beating up the soldiers who landed on the vessel.Following the takeover of the ship, soldiers displayed for the cameras the knives and other weapons used by the Gaza-bound activists in their attack.
> 
> One of the soldiers who took part in the raid and broke his hand in the clash recounted the moments of horror when he and his comrades were assaulted by about 30 activists on board.
> 
> After every person came down (from the helicopter,) three or four guys grabbed a hold of him and simply beat him senseless. They lynched us. They were equipped with metal bats, knives, slingshots, and glass bottles. At some point we faced live fire by two guys, he said.
> 
> I was among the last to come down, and I saw the guys spread all over, each in another corner, with three or four people around each. I saw a soldier on the ground with two people beating the hell out of him. I pushed them off of him, and they moved on to me and started to beat me up with the poles. This is how I broke my hand apparently, he said. At the time I was not holding a weapon, just like everyone who came down from the rope barehanded and with our paintball guns on our backs.
> 
> We faced live ammunition
> They came at me and assaulted me. I took them down to the ground. I took a few steps back and pulled out my paintball gun. They charged me while I fired at their legs, he said. One of the bats shattered the weapon, so I moved on to the handgun, so that I have something to hold. At that point my arm wasnt functional.
> 
> I saw two of my guys lying on the floor. We were being fired at, with live ammunition, from the corridor. It was bullets. I spotted a muzzle, and one of us fired at the guy. We came in after that and he wasnt there.
> There were about 30 people there, the soldier summed up. They simply came for war. We came to talk to them, convince them to come down, yet with every person who came down, they simply charged.
> 
> Despite the video footage, Israel had been condemned worldwide over the raid, which claimed the lives of at least nine people. The events at sea also stirred great anger among Arab Israelis, who held rallies and waved PLO flags across the nation. Two police officers sustained light wounds in Umm al-Fahm, in northern Israel, after being stoned by locals.
> 
> YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers










loser are you talking about those slingshots and rods.. do you call them weapons... ???? 
wow didn know they are considered weapons in your part of the ******* world

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## adir

They use force-israeli soldies have all the right to hit back!


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## Pakz

look at the propoganda from that image of kitchen knifes. the idf couldnt find weapons so they took a pictures of kitchen knifes and a screwdriver. what shameful propaganda and some people will believe it.

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## alibaz

adir said:


> Soldier: Activists came for war
> (Video) Video footage shows brutal attack on troops on board Gaza-bound vessel; soldier says passengers fired at forces, beat them severely using metal bats, knives. We landed barehanded, and they lynched us, he says
> Amnon Meranda
> Published: 05.31.10, 21:48 / Israel News
> VIDEO - Video footage of the raid on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara vessel shows activists on board brutally beating up troops with metal rods and chairs.
> 
> The video also shows one soldier being grabbed by some of the activists and being pushed down to the lower deck, sustaining serious wounds. Meanwhile, passengers on the ship kept on beating up the soldiers who landed on the vessel.Following the takeover of the ship, soldiers displayed for the cameras the knives and other weapons used by the Gaza-bound activists in their attack.
> 
> One of the soldiers who took part in the raid and broke his hand in the clash recounted the moments of horror when he and his comrades were assaulted by about 30 activists on board.
> 
> After every person came down (from the helicopter,) three or four guys grabbed a hold of him and simply beat him senseless. They lynched us. They were equipped with metal bats, knives, slingshots, and glass bottles. At some point we faced live fire by two guys, he said.
> 
> I was among the last to come down, and I saw the guys spread all over, each in another corner, with three or four people around each. I saw a soldier on the ground with two people beating the hell out of him. I pushed them off of him, and they moved on to me and started to beat me up with the poles. This is how I broke my hand apparently, he said. At the time I was not holding a weapon, just like everyone who came down from the rope barehanded and with our paintball guns on our backs.
> 
> We faced live ammunition
> They came at me and assaulted me. I took them down to the ground. I took a few steps back and pulled out my paintball gun. They charged me while I fired at their legs, he said. One of the bats shattered the weapon, so I moved on to the handgun, so that I have something to hold. At that point my arm wasnt functional.
> 
> I saw two of my guys lying on the floor. We were being fired at, with live ammunition, from the corridor. It was bullets. I spotted a muzzle, and one of us fired at the guy. We came in after that and he wasnt there.
> There were about 30 people there, the soldier summed up. They simply came for war. We came to talk to them, convince them to come down, yet with every person who came down, they simply charged.
> 
> Despite the video footage, Israel had been condemned worldwide over the raid, which claimed the lives of at least nine people. The events at sea also stirred great anger among Arab Israelis, who held rallies and waved PLO flags across the nation. Two police officers sustained light wounds in Umm al-Fahm, in northern Israel, after being stoned by locals.
> 
> YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers



O My God they v caught a huge quantity of arms. Kitchen knives 

AH IDF

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## gambit

Abasin Turi said:


> loser are you talking about those slingshots and rods.. do you call them weapons... ????
> wow didn know they are considered weapons in your part of the ******* world


Why are they not weapons?


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## Abasin Turi

alibaz said:


> O My God they v caught a huge quantity of arms. Kitchen knives
> 
> AH IDF



lol yessisraelis are even afraid of kitchen knives.. and sling shots..


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## Pakz

gambit said:


> Why are they not weapons?



i can find these weapons in your home, should i call the police?

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## Abasin Turi

these were teh weapons you were talking about you dashed up nation






---------- Post added at 02:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 AM ----------




gambit said:


> Why are they not weapons?



well yes in sick countries like israel america and india they are considered as weapons..


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## gambit

Pakz said:


> i can find these weapons in your home, should i call the police?


Do you even know the definition and equally important -- context -- of 'weapon'?


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## Meengla

adir said:


> They use force-israeli soldies have all the right to hit back!



Do you really, seriously believe anyone is buying your lies?! If so then you may really ask for your 'G-D' to help you save your *****. You quite conveniently forgot to mention that IDF landed on 3rd countries' vessels in INTERNATIONAL WATERS which is, as far as I know, at least some kind of 'piracy', to quote the Turks.


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## Abasin Turi

adir said:


> They use force-israeli soldies have all the right to hit back!



ok when i come to your home and slit your family ,, and fire sporadic bullets don;t defend yourself ok.. else i will call you a terrorist!


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## adir

Did you saw the video?
also 2 israeli soldier are in fatal condition
Thier was a gun fight and israel have a video to prove it that they have a gun and they use it.
Aid convoy my ***


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## Jigs

adir said:


> They use force-israeli soldies have all the right to hit back!



No they don't. They didn't have a right to be on the ship in the first place. Look if you plan on stopping a flagged ship in international waters the most stupid thing you can do is raid it with commandos. The Israeli soldiers were in a illegal operation they have no say in this matter. Nice to see the Zionist network at work taking down videos and putting their crap up.

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## gambit

Abasin Turi said:


> well yes in sick countries like israel america and india they are considered as weapons..


Am asking a fair question. Why is a kitchen knife or a cricket bat *CANNOT* be considered a 'weapon'?

Cricket bat used to foil robbery - al.com


> A man who tried to rob a Bay Minette-area store this weekend with a toy gun was run off by a worker wielding a cricket bat, Baldwin County investigators said.


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## Pakz

gambit said:


> Do you even know the definition and equally important -- context -- of 'weapon'?



Yes, i am quite aware of it, maybe you should be the one and stop believing into the propaganda the IDF is bringing forward to save their indiscriminately killing of innocent journalists and people. since idf went in to find weapons being smuggled, they couldnt find any and posted pictures of knifes. it is quite clear for even a layman.


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## Abasin Turi

gambit said:


> Do you even know the definition and equally important -- context -- of 'weapon'?



ohhh please kindly enlighten us... i didn't know having a slingshot is considered a weapon... if it is a weapon all your american kids are criminal too..


----------



## Loki23

Usama86 said:


> The Palestanian struggle is significant not only because its a freedom struggle but also because Jerusolam houses the holy sites of Jews Christian and Muslims. The struggle is not only to free Palistenians but also liberate the Holy sites which are close to every Muslims heart.
> 
> I have gone through the link you provided, an ugly picture it paints. It should be taken up with the relevant authorities but i guess someone from Turkey will be in a better position to reply. Also i think if one starts digging up the past no nation can come out clean, we all have skeletons in the closet.



What is wrong with Israelis have control over the holy sites? They are people of the book too. Isnt the Dome of the Rock built over Solomon's temple so dear to the Jews? So why use the term liberation?


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## gambit

Pakz said:


> Yes, i am quite aware of it, maybe you should be the one and stop believing into the propaganda the IDF is bringing forward to save their indiscriminately killing of innocent journalists and people. since idf went in to find weapons being smuggled, they couldnt find any and posted pictures of knifes. it is quite clear for even a layman.


Then please explain to the readers as to why a kitchen knife *CANNOT* be used as a 'weapon' to assault another person with intention to do grievous or fatal bodily harm.


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## Pakz

gambit said:


> Am asking a fair question. Why is a kitchen knife or a cricket bat *CANNOT* be considered a 'weapon'?
> 
> Cricket bat used to foil robbery - al.com



let me ask this, can you kill someone for possesing a cricket bat or a kitchen knife?


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## idune

prodevelopment said:


> Control your freaking emotions guys.
> 
> To answer your argument,
> 
> "civilian ship in international waters" =/= "humanitarian aid"
> 
> If they wanted to provide aid, they could have easily offloaded their cargo at an Israeli port. Better still, if they did not trust Israel, ask Egypt to deliver the cargo.
> 
> WHY SO MUCH MEDIA PRESENCE ON A HUMANITARIAN SHIP?



India time and agin proved it sponsored terrorism and its citizens supported terrorist acts. Now question is why these indian terrorist are allowed here?

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## Peregrine

Hi
Israel is a rogue state its really funny how people instead of condemning her violent actions are defending them no wonder the world has no peace if States like Israel will continue to pursue such sinister policies than there will always be people as freedom fighters to counter it no matter what kind of terminologies people use for them they will always be there

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## Fireurimagination

The same fate would probably await any unauthorized ship approaching any other sovereign country in the world, probably in many other cases the ship would have been torpedoed to the bottom of the ocean, infact Israel showed restraint and risked it's commandos by boarding the ship

Also Which part of "naval blockade" didn't the protesters understand and why were the Peace Activists attacking Commandos with Iron Rods/Knives/clubs ?


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## gambit

Jigs said:


> No they don't. *They didn't have a right to be on the ship in the first place.* Look if you plan on stopping a flagged ship in international waters the most stupid thing you can do is raid it with commandos. The Israeli soldiers were in a illegal operation they have no say in this matter. Nice to see the Zionist network at work taking down videos and putting their crap up.


The flotilla never had any right to violate Israeli territorial waters in the first place, no matter how humanitarian is their mission. If anything, the only group that warrant access would be the International Red Cross.


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## idune

adir said:


> They use force-israeli soldies have all the right to hit back!



You have no moral defence of these terror actions. You can use your media and military muscle but the world can see through your deception and terror.

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## adir

illegal operation lol
Israel have all the right to do what they did.
every ship that want to enter gaza need to be checked.Hamass is a terror organization that recognized as a terror organization by the world.If they wanted to dealver aid they could do it through israel or egypt.Israel also offer tham that deal but they said no.Also israeli soldiers open fire only when they were in life danger.


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## gambit

Pakz said:


> let me ask this, can you kill someone for possesing a cricket bat or a kitchen knife?


Just for possession? Of course not. But if you come at a police officer with a cricket bat or a kitchen knife...What do you think the officer would do?


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## Usama86

@adir the video you have provided, the authenticity can be questioned as it doesnot have any credible news channels logo on it. The soldiers landed on the deck and were being beaten up by the ppl on board. The end result was that your soldiers killed 20+ civilians. In this video the only gun i see is in the hands of the soldiers and all the weapons on display in the pic are knives LOL... so u say that these guys were transporting knives to harm Israil in some way? There is no gun on display being used by the people in the ship. The IDF should have surrounded the ships to stop them, maybe they did it i dont know but sending in armed commandos means that there is in intention to use force to achieve your goal which was responded well by the aid workers.

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## Abasin Turi

gambit said:


> Just for possession? Of course not. But if you come at a police officer with a cricket bat or a kitchen knife...What do you think the officer would do?



wait that aid ship was a police station... am confused man.. your examples arent working here.. get a quality vodka dude..!


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## idune

Fireurimagination said:


> The same fate would probably await any unauthorized ship approaching any other sovereign country in the world, probably in many other cases the ship would have been torpedoed to the bottom of the ocean, infact Israel showed restraint and risked it's commandos by boarding the ship
> 
> Also Which part of "naval blockade" didn't the protesters understand and why were the Peace Activists attacking Commandos with Iron Rods/Knives/clubs ?



---- Words from indian terrorist supporting state terrorism.

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## gambit

Can someone explain to the forum on why a kitchen knife cannot be considered a 'weapon' at any time?


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## Jigs

gambit said:


> The flotilla never had any right to violate Israeli territorial waters in the first place, no matter how humanitarian is their mission. If anything, the only group that warrant access would be the International Red Cross.



It was in international waters how low is your IQ ?


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## adir

Jigs said:


> It was in international waters how low is your IQ ?



They float to Israel


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## Abasin Turi

Jigs said:


> It was in international waters how low is your IQ ?



thank you bro... see i have faith in humanity just bcz of ppl like you.. 
may Gold bless you and keep you pure.. =)


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## gambit

Jigs said:


> It was in international waters how low is your IQ ?


Israel, supposedly, asked the group to stop by a designated port for inspection. The group refused and made it clear that its intention is to violate territorial waters. If a person intends to trespass your property you have the right to try to stop that person even if he has not set foot on your front yard. So is it true that the group intends to violate Israel's territorial waters?


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## adir

Israel Now consider to sand a aid convoy to kurdistan and Armenia.


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## Abasin Turi

gambit said:


> Israel, supposedly, asked the group to stop by a designated port for inspection. The group refused and made it clear that its intention is to violate territorial waters. If a person intends to trespass your property you have the right to try to stop that person even if he has not set foot on your front yard. So is it true that the group intends to violate Israel's territorial waters?



prove that kitchen-knife-fearer


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## Jigs

gambit said:


> Israel, supposedly, asked the group to stop by a designated port for inspection. The group refused and made it clear that its intention is to violate territorial waters. If a person intends to trespass your property you have the right to try to stop that person even if he has not set foot on your front yard. So is it true that the group intends to violate Israel's territorial waters?



Actually no. The first thing the police would ask you was if he was on your property. If no then they can't do anything. The ship was in international waters when attacked. It means very little now if weather the ship was actually going to go into Israeli territorial waters because before even coming close to someones property they were raided. Israel can't say this ship had the intent of heading to our waters and we attacked them in international waters to stop them. Remember when Iran had a boat speeding around a U.S. ship ? Remember that ? What did the U.S. do ? Oh that's right! they didn't attack. Want to know why ? Because it was in international waters buddy where sh*t like that doesn't roll.

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## gambit

Israel releases footage of resistance to aid boat storming | News.com.au


> Another demonstrator can be seen waving a white chair over his head in the melee, which also shows one commando pointing what appears to be a paint-ball gun at the passengers.


Why would one of the world's most capable commando services go into a highly volatile situation armed only with paint-ball guns and sidearms?


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## Usama86

Loki said:


> What is wrong with Israelis have control over the holy sites? They are people of the book too. Isnt the Dome of the Rock built over Solomon's temple so dear to the Jews? So why use the term liberation?



They are people of the book but no good are the people of the book if they dont follow the book (including muslims). Israelis have control over the Holy sites and the result is that Muslims and Christians have to ask for special permission to visit those sites or pray their (incase of muslims the permtions not usually granted). They havent been able to bring justice to the place and i dont even want to go in detail of how they have turned Palistine into a refugee camp. They dont deserve to control those places. When muslims were in command we showed how the three religons can coexist their. Watch History channel and NatGeo documentaries if u dont believe me or if u r in a filmy mood... Ridley Scott's The Kingdom Of Heaven will provide infotainment.


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## idune

gambit said:


> Israel releases footage of resistance to aid boat storming | News.com.au
> 
> Why would one of the world's most capable commando services go into a highly volatile situation armed only with paint-ball guns and sidearms?



you can stop your bs here. America need to think of it interest first and its people. The way american people and its system hijacked by zionists even sane jews are speaking out against it. Amaerica and americans can not afford to drag their name and status with these massacre.

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## gambit

Jigs said:


> Actually no. The first thing the police would ask you was if he was on your property. If no then they can't do anything. The ship was in international waters when attacked.


You do not have time to call the police. Your family is inside the house. You have valuable properties. If I intends to trespass, even if I was on the sidewalk, the police would be on your side if you took preemptive actions.



Jigs said:


> It means very little now if weather the ship was actually going to go into Israeli territorial waters because before even coming close to someones property they were raided. Israel *can't say this ship had the intent of heading to our waters* and we attacked them in international waters to stop them.


How else can the group deliver the aid?



Jigs said:


> Remember when Iran had a boat speeding around a U.S. ship ? Remember that ? What did the U.S. do ? Oh that's right! they didn't attack. Want to know why ? Because it was in international waters buddy where sh*t like that doesn't roll.


That Iranian boat was not threatening US territorial waters. Have no doubt that if there was an Iranian boat with hostile intent with intentions to violate US territorial waters -- KABOOM...!!!


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## Abasin Turi

idune said:


> you can stop your bs here. America need to think of it interest first and its people. The way american people and its system hijacked by zionists even sane jews are speaking out against it. Amaerica and americans can not afford to drag their name and status with these massacre.



you know what we pakistanis arent against americans but against those biased american policies... 
bro they dont understand the soft talk.. you need to deal them with an arm fist... 
BASH THEM


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## gambit

idune said:


> you can stop your bs here. America need to think of it interest first and its people. The way american people and its system hijacked by zionists even sane jews are speaking out against it. Amaerica and americans can not afford to drag their name and status with these massacre.


Why are you avoiding a legitimate question? *IF*...*IF*...*IF*...It is true that Israeli commandos stormed the aid ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms...What could be the reason for that?


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## EjazR

salahuldin786 said:


> IS SEE NO COMMENTS FROM THE U.S.A, U.K, INDIA



*The Hindu : News : India condemns Israeli attack*

India joined several other governments around the world in condemning Israel for its use of disproportionate force leading to the death of 20 passengers on a flotilla carrying relief supplies to Gaza.

The Israeli Navy opened fire while forcibly boarding the ships for inspection. The flotilla was trying to reach Gaza, which faces an Israeli naval blockade. Scores of governments have protested the killings, while at least half-a-dozen summoned Israeli envoys to record their condemnation in person.

*India deplores the tragic loss of life and the reports of killings and injuries to the people on the boats carrying supplies for Gaza. There can be no justification for such indiscriminate use of force, which we condemn. We extend our sympathies to the families of the dead and wounded. It is our firm conviction that lasting peace and security in the region can be achieved only through peaceful dialogue and not through use of force, said a Ministry of External Affairs statement.*


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## Durran3

gambit said:


> Israel, supposedly, asked the group to stop by a designated port for inspection. The group refused and made it clear that its intention is to violate territorial waters. If a person intends to trespass your property you have the right to try to stop that person even if he has not set foot on your front yard. So is it true that the group intends to violate Israel's territorial waters?



That still doesn't mean that you jump the boat with Commandos and kill 10 people. Everyone knew including the Israeli's that the Ship had gone through border inspections and that no weapons were available on board. Also those knives that your clinging to is a really weak argument for weapons. Any aid ship with over 10000 tons of food and equipment is bound to have knives and screw drivers. Maybe some idiot might have smuggled a gun but that was not the intention of this convoy.

We already know this aid was a political stunt but an important one. Since 2007 Israel has had full control over what goes in and outside of Gaza. The 15,000 tons of food that Israel provides weekly is not even 1/3 of whats needed according to the latest UN reports. This political stunt was to bring this blockade into light around the world without resorting to violence or war and the organizers succeeded in doing that... and seriously knives in a Food humanitarian food convoy thats scary

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## adir

Usama86 said:


> @adir the video you have provided, the authenticity can be questioned as it doesnot have any credible news channels logo on it. The soldiers landed on the deck and were being beaten up by the ppl on board. The end result was that your soldiers killed 20+ civilians. In this video the only gun i see is in the hands of the soldiers and all the weapons on display in the pic are knives LOL... so u say that these guys were transporting knives to harm Israil in some way? There is no gun on display being used by the people in the ship. The IDF should have surrounded the ships to stop them, maybe they did it i dont know but sending in armed commandos means that there is in intention to use force to achieve your goal which was responded well by the aid workers.



Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed


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## Abasin Turi

EjazR said:


> *The Hindu : News : India condemns Israeli attack*
> 
> India joined several other governments around the world in condemning Israel for its use of disproportionate force leading to the death of 20 passengers on a flotilla carrying relief supplies to Gaza.
> 
> The Israeli Navy opened fire while forcibly boarding the ships for inspection. The flotilla was trying to reach Gaza, which faces an Israeli naval blockade. Scores of governments have protested the killings, while at least half-a-dozen summoned Israeli envoys to record their condemnation in person.
> 
> *India deplores the tragic loss of life and the reports of killings and injuries to the people on the boats carrying supplies for Gaza. There can be no justification for such indiscriminate use of force, which we condemn. We extend our sympathies to the families of the dead and wounded. It is our firm conviction that lasting peace and security in the region can be achieved only through peaceful dialogue and not through use of force, said a Ministry of External Affairs statement.*



dual policy.. 
the indian nation is happy (atleast the indian community on PDF) and the government is condemning the act.. well ok.. 
but anyhoo thanks ejaz.. your article relaxed me abit..!


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## gambit

Durran3 said:


> Any aid ship with over 10000 tons of food and equipment is bound to have knives and screw drivers.


That is not what I asked. Am asking on why a kitchen knife, or a cricket bat, or a crowbar, or a large plumbing wrench, or a compressed air nail gun...Or any other tool...Cannot be considered a weapon at any time?


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## Desert Fox

gambit said:


> That is not what I asked. Am asking on why a kitchen knife, or a cricket bat, or a crowbar, or a large plumbing wrench, or a compressed air nail gun...Or any other tool...Cannot be considered a weapon at any time?



will any of these above mentioned tools pierce the helmets and bullet proof body armor of the highly trained IDF soldiers?


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## Durran3

gambit said:


> That is not what I asked. Am asking on why a kitchen knife, or a cricket bat, or a crowbar, or a large plumbing wrench, or a compressed air nail gun...Or any other tool...Cannot be considered a weapon at any time?



Sure it can be... but in this case your just nitpicking trying to justify the killing of 10 people and wounding a dozen others. In this case if i threw a teddy bear against people with guns that would be considered a weapon to.. does that answer your silly question?

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## Jigs

gambit said:


> You do not have time to call the police. Your family is inside the house. You have valuable properties. If I intends to trespass, even if I was on the sidewalk, the police would be on your side if you took preemptive actions.
> 
> 
> How else can the group deliver the aid?
> 
> 
> That Iranian boat was not threatening US territorial waters. Have no doubt that if there was an Iranian boat with hostile intent with intentions to violate US territorial waters -- KABOOM...!!!



Let me make this point the ship was 72 miles i believe away the Israeli waters are 12 i think. So that is like me being all the way down the street and coming to your house as your coming towards me with a shotgun. And shoot me long before i get to your house.

I ask you this what would you do if your on transport ship of U.S. Flag and Israel attacked your ship (Which is your property) in international waters ?

Also why are so many countries pissed at Israel ? It isn't just us. Even Greece which had a ship in the convoy has recalled their ambassador and canceled military exercises. Is Israel not to blame when Spain,Sweden,Greece and many other countries are in support of the ship and against Israel ?


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## gambit

Durran3 said:


> Sure it can be...


Thanks for having the courage where others did not.



Durran3 said:


> but in this case your just nitpicking trying to justify the killing of 10 people and wounding a dozen others. In this case if i threw a teddy bear against people with guns that would be considered a weapon to.


No nitpicking here. Police officers everywhere would definitely charge you with assaulting an officer with that teddy bear. In the case of the aid group, *IF* it is true that Israeli commandos stormed the ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms, then any assault on the soldiers with kitchen knives and wooden sticks would be the equivalent of doing the same to a squad of police officers coming to execute a search warrant. You do that and see what happens to you.

Israel: Gaza aid convoy can unload cargo in Ashdod for inspection - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


> The *Israel Defense Forces announced that troops, especially the navy, have completed the preparations for the flotilla, which will likely arrive in the region over the weekend. The preparations included a compound at the Ashdod port* consisting of air conditioned tents equipped with computerized stations, metal detectors, and seating for the activists manning the ships. The IDF is preparing for the arrival of some 800 peace activists. The IDF said that they were ready to carry out the government's decision to prevent the ships from reaching the Gaza shore.


Is that true?


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## Meengla

gambit said:


> Why are you avoiding a legitimate question? *IF*...*IF*...*IF*...It is true that Israeli commandos stormed the aid ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms...What could be the reason for that?



No, no. It was not paint-ball or side-arms. Israelis commandoes stormed with hula-hoops around their waists and a crown of flowers on their heads with some rose-bouquets as side-arms. 

You might as well as have made a video with that. It would be more likely to be believed considering the pansies your 'soldiers' are!

Don't mess with Turkey. Don't go too far with that 'Kurdistan' or 'Armenia' thingies. In fact, prepare to eat some humble pies by apologies to the Turks before too long. They are even more important to you than Americans are: Neighbors always are.

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## sparklingway

I'm not taking the BS of the people being armed. It can most definitely be imagined that a couple would have gotten agitated and perhaps tried to manhandle an armed IDF soldier, perhaps even with some rod or stick, and the soldiers being trigger friendly and having no concern whatsoever of human life killed the people in response. It is utterly beyond comprehension that the soldiers feared for their life and that demanded killing nearly two dozen activists. Had they been trying to send a message to the supposedly "attacking" activists, they would have fired a couple of warning shots or perhaps shot one or two people in the leg. What did they do? They shot dead 19 people on a civilian ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign state that happens to be a NATO member. Will NATO manage to grow the balls to tackle this offensive from a country that seems to be the first priority of our unmatched global power. 

Israel isn't a kid with a bad temper. It's a country, a sovereign state and should have the brains to deal with such a situation peacefully and tactfully. Clearly they did not. It can mean one of two things (generalizing by a big brush)

1) Israel thought it could get away with an armed assault. They might have thought that there would no civilian casualties but they thought that they would get away with such an armed assault courtesy some big players in the intl community who are more than willing to suck their genitalia.

2) Israel committed an utter, utter mistake. Perhaps even a failure of the chain of command. Such a big failure is unlikely to happen though.

Israel committed this act knowing fully the repercussions. They perhaps did not imagine such high or even any casualties but they clearly knew that they would get away with an armed assault in international waters, maybe with just a slap on the wrist.

Let me take Iran example out of the equation. Say, Sudan cuts off all international access to Darfur and blocks the land passage (just imagine although Darfur is on the Chad and CAR borders). Now, if Sudanese military attacks and kills intl aid/political activists, will it get away with it? Clearly no.

Just imagine during the independence struggle of East Timor, had Indonesia attacked an aid convoy, it would have faced dozens of economic sanctions and strained relationships besides the threat of military action.

Israel is getting away with killing 19 people in international waters. This is an act of war. Geo-political clout and sympathies seem to have taken the better of logic and reason. I'm baffled as to how one can justify Israel's attacks.

In the eyes of criminal law provocation and murder are entirely different things. This was not criminally inciting murder either. Are you suggesting that if I walk into a gang alley and get stabbed then I should be as criminally liable as the person who stabbed me for I provoked him by going through a nobody's-owned area that happened to be by his den (analogy being roads as municipal owned and hence not private property and intl waters being out of Israel's sovereign boundaries). I might extend this logic to the wearing-skimpy-clothes-gets-you-raped argument as well. Utterly fallacious logic being used to condone violence based on sympathies for a nation with one of the worst human rights record on the planet.

The humanitarian mission had a clear message. They could have taken another route but Israel had to be given a message that the International community will not take more of its BS and let Israel control the situation entirely and dictate the routes taken by foreign aid missions.

They were in international waters. Had they been just a micrometer outside Israel's territorial or contiguous zones or exclusive economic zones, they still would have been under the sovereign jurisdiction of the flag they were flying.

A ship flying the flag of a NATO member state has been attacked. Will NATO send forces?

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## asq

xdrive said:


> Excuse me? Your directing at that me.
> 
> I am just stating the facts.
> 
> I DID NOT say what the Israelis are doing is right.
> 
> Once again, i am just stating the facts.



And half facts at best, dude, this flotilla was anchored near Lebnon for day seeking permission from Israelis and they must have got the permission and that is how they were there.

As usual Israel will hide the truth and lie about it as it did about killing of a palistenian leader in Dubai using stolen/fake European passports.


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## gambit

Jigs said:


> Let me make this point the ship was 72 miles i believe away the Israeli waters are 12 i think. So that is like me being all the way down the street and coming to your house as your coming towards me with a shotgun. And shoot me long before i get to your house.


If you know that I have *DEADLY* intention, then of course you would be justified. If you want to escalate the lethality of this hypothetical situation, so can I. Am a gun owner with a Concealed Carry Permit, living in a state where firearms are valued. I know the laws and the situations where I would be fully justified. On the international realm, there is no global police force responding to an international 911 emergency call.



Jigs said:


> I ask you this what would you do if your on transport ship of U.S. Flag and Israel attacked your ship (Which is your property) in international waters ?


Sorry...But this is called a 'straw man' argument. Look it up.



Jigs said:


> Also why are so many countries pissed at Israel ? It isn't just us. Even Greece which had a ship in the convoy has recalled their ambassador and canceled military exercises. Is Israel not to blame when Spain,Sweden,Greece and many other countries are in support of the ship and against Israel ?


My prediction...All of this will be blown over. The countries have no choice but to act...*ACT*...outraged. The next aid group will have serious reservations on pulling another one of this stunt.


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## Loki23

Usama86 said:


> They are people of the book but no good are the people of the book if they dont follow the book (including muslims). Israelis have control over the Holy sites and the result is that Muslims and Christians have to ask for special permission to visit those sites or pray their (incase of muslims the permtions not usually granted). They havent been able to bring justice to the place and i dont even want to go in detail of how they have turned Palistine into a refugee camp. They dont deserve to control those places. When muslims were in command we showed how the three religons can coexist their. Watch History channel and NatGeo documentaries if u dont believe me or if u r in a filmy mood... Ridley Scott's The Kingdom Of Heaven will provide infotainment.


 
Not what i read. It is administered by Wakf Board and non-muslims i.e, Jews arent allowed to pray there even though they have probably as much right to do so. Possibly muslim pilgrims dont get a visa to visit Israel and the holy sites an understandable reaction since many muslim countries dont have diplomatic relations with Israel. As to if a Muslim administration would be any fairer ..the proof is in its pudding but given that non-muslims cannot even enter Mecca or Medina and a non-muslim cannot practice his or her faith in the muslim holy land i wouldnt put much faith in the fairness of a muslim administration.


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## Jigs

gambit said:


> Thanks for having the courage where others did not.
> 
> 
> No nitpicking here. Police officers everywhere would definitely charge you with assaulting an officer with that teddy bear. In the case of the aid group, *IF* it is true that Israeli commandos stormed the ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms, then any assault on the soldiers with kitchen knives and wooden sticks would be the equivalent of doing the same to a squad of police officers coming to execute a search warrant. You do that and see what happens to you.
> 
> Israel: Gaza aid convoy can unload cargo in Ashdod for inspection - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
> 
> Is that true?



You do know they have been deleting a number of videos on the matter and posting their own BS. Paintball guns also don't kill people for all i know they could have rigged those guys. Or had Armed side arms so when they shot the guy with the paintball gun they could provoke him and kill him.


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## Durran3

> In the case of the aid group, IF it is true that Israeli commandos stormed the ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms, then any assault on the soldiers with kitchen knives and wooden sticks would be the equivalent of doing the same to a squad of police officers coming to execute a search warrant.



Don't give me the *IF *scenario. 

If a police asked for my search warrant I'd bet a thousand camels that officer would be within his jurisdiction when asking for such a warrant well within his limits. A police would ask for my warrant if he is in his country not outside his country and Israel was playing Squad Police outside Israeli territories.

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## gambit

Durran3 said:


> Don't give me the *IF *scenario.


You have no choice. Already there are firearms experts questioning on why would one of the world's most capable commando service going into a potentially volatile situation armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms.



Durran3 said:


> If a police asked for my search warrant I'd bet a thousand camels that officer would be within his jurisdiction when asking for such a warrant well within his limits. A police would ask for my warrant if he is in his country not outside his country and Israel was playing Squad Police outside Israeli territories.


There is no global police force.


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## gambit

Jigs said:


> You do know they have been deleting a number of videos on the matter and posting their own BS. *Paintball guns also don't kill people for all i know they could have rigged those guys.*


That make no tactical sense. Why would I want to 'rig' a paint-ball gun to be lethal when I could have carry a 'real' weapon?



Jigs said:


> Or had Armed side arms so when they shot the guy with the paintball gun they could provoke him and kill him.


Sidearms are generally considered defensive weapons. You have been watching too many action movies.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

now ordinary tools like paint guns and knives could be used a s a justification for Israeli actions.. 

So sad to see such utter BS ..

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## gambit

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> now ordinary tools like paint guns and knives could be used a s a justification for Israeli actions..
> 
> So sad to see such utter BS ..


Go down to the street and charge an armed police officer with a knife. If you can, report back to the forum on what happened...


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## sparklingway

gambit said:


> There is no global police force.


On the seas. B/c you don't attack a civilian aid convoy. An armed attack from a military ship can be dealt with by a sovereign navy. When Russian troops free their ships from Somali pirates, nobody cries foul for the pirates are armed and have violated international law.

The flotilla had not violated international law. It was in international waters, outside Israel's jurisdiction and had there been a dozen guns on board, even then it would not have violated any laws.

Israel is guilty of murder. Don't apologize of crime, barbarianism, imperialism and inhumane bastards. I can't take anymore BS when people try to justify such acts of terror.

Do not complain when some idiots start justifying extremism and terror across the world then. They'll be following your very own logic for you're defending an indefensible thing based on geo-political sympathies and terrorists have a political goal. You justify terror, they'll justify terror.

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## asq

gambit said:


> Thanks for having the courage where others did not.
> 
> 
> No nitpicking here. Police officers everywhere would definitely charge you with assaulting an officer with that teddy bear. In the case of the aid group, *IF* it is true that Israeli commandos stormed the ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms, then any assault on the soldiers with kitchen knives and wooden sticks would be the equivalent of doing the same to a squad of police officers coming to execute a search warrant. You do that and see what happens to you.
> 
> Israel: Gaza aid convoy can unload cargo in Ashdod for inspection - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
> 
> Is that true?



For your info Mr.gambit, the flotilla was waiting for some kind of permission from Israelis near the waters of Lebnon i guess, and that is how they were late in delivering this humaintarian supplies, Mr. wise guy. 

I am sure they had permisiion to go ahead with the delivery, why than such drastic act of boarding when permission is granted, than haressing, killing.

Those who were on board were not dum people, they new the rules and the situation and that is why they waited for permissuion, but little they new that Israel does not keep its word and even agreements it signs.

so Mr. gambit u r anti Muslim dude, unlike many Americans I know who suport the cuase of truth.


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## gambit

sparklingway said:


> The flotilla had not violated international law. It was in international waters, outside Israel's jurisdiction and had there been a dozen guns on board, even then it would not have violated any laws.


The group's intention to violate Israel's territorial waters was not a secret. The issue is not confined to merely action but also on intention.


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## gambit

asq said:


> For your info Mr.gambit, the flotilla was waiting for some kind of permission from Israelis near the waters of Lebnon i guess, and that is how they were late in delivering this humaintarian supplies, Mr. wise guy.
> 
> I am sure they had permisiion to go ahead with the delivery, why than such drastic act of boarding when permission is granted, than haressing, killing.
> 
> Those who were on board were not dum people, they new the rules and the situation and that is why they waited for permissuion, but little they new that Israel does not keep its word and even agreements it signs.
> 
> so Mr. gambit u r anti Muslim dude, unlike many Americans I know who suport the cuase of truth.


Sources please...Am willing to stand corrected once I am allowed to examine the sources. Fair enough?


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## Meengla

@Gambit sounds like 'prepped' to give a plausible line of defence for Israel: Keep posting the IDF videos and try to make the case that, somehow, the Flotilla was 'armed' even with kitchen knives or cricket bat or whatever. All the time conveniently side-stepping the legality of boarding the vessel in the International waters.
How stale!

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## sparklingway

gambit said:


> The group's intention to violate Israel's territorial waters was not a secret. The issue is not confined to merely action but also on intention.



Precognition? Now people will be attacked and arrested for Precrime as in Minority Report? Not to say that they hadn't committed any crimes when they were attacked nor were they a military force.

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## Meengla

gambit said:


> The group's intention to violate Israel's *territorial waters* was not a secret. The issue is not confined to merely action but also on intention.



I thought Gazans were free? I thought Israel 'left' Gaza 'only' to be bombarded with Kassam later?

Lies. Lies. And more Lies!

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## gambit

sparklingway said:


> Precognition? Now people will be attacked and arrested for Precrime as in Minority Report? Not to say that they hadn't committed any crimes when they were attacked nor were they a military force.


Of course it is 'precognition'. The aid certainly was not for Israeli citizens. The International Red Cross would have been the more appropriate choice and a highly respected one at that. The IRC would have complied with Israeli requests.


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## Hyde

gambit said:


> The group's intention to violate Israel's territorial waters was not a secret. The issue is not confined to merely action but also on intention.



by violating the territory you are usually arrested. Nobody executes you for such a small crime 

Until yesterday i refrained calling Israeli's a terrorist nation. But today everything is crystal clear - The next destination for WoT should be Israel

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## sparklingway

gambit said:


> Of course it is 'precognition'. The aid certainly was not for Israeli citizens. The International Red Cross would have been the more appropriate choice and a highly respected on at that. The IRC would have complied with Israeli requests.



Israel is nobody to dictate a humanitarian cause. It had to be given notice that the world is no longer willing to let it dictate its terms on aid to Gaza. People in Gaza are desperate. The flotilla had a political message but it remained a civilian aid convoy.

I hope you can feel their pain as well just like you can feel the pain of any other human being suffering the wrath of an imperialist force.


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## gambit

Zaki said:


> by violating the territory you are usually arrested. Nobody executes you for such a small crime


If you resist arrest for a crime, depends on the level of resistance, you may be killed in the fight.


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## gambit

sparklingway said:


> Israel is nobody to dictate a humanitarian cause.


And this aid group is nobody to violate anybody's territorial sovereignty.



sparklingway said:


> It had to be given notice that the world is no longer willing to let it dictate its terms on aid to Gaza. People in Gaza are desperate. The flotilla had a political message but it remained a civilian aid convoy.


Are you saying that no aid enters Gaza at all?

Israel Continues to Transfer Humanitarian Aid to Gaza


> Statistics on Humanitarian Aid Transferred from Israel to Gaza Israel continues to transfer basic food supplies and humanitarian goods into the Gaza Strip. Items such as medical supplies, meat, chicken, fish, grains, legumes, oil, flour, salt, sugar, fresh vegetables and dairy products as well as animal feed, hygiene products and clothes are all transferred through the Israel-Gaza goods crossings, Kerem Shalom and Karni.
> The total amount of aid transferred from Israel to Gaza in 2009 increased by 180 percent, compared to the amount transferred 2008.



http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-c...-aid-trucks-sent-to-gaza-from-jordan-1.238927


> At least 10 trucks with humanitarian aid sent to the Gaza Strip by the Jordanian Red Crescent Society were confiscated by Hamas police shortly after the trucks entered the territory on Thursday evening, according to aid officials in Jerusalem.



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/284498


> Aqaba, Jordan - The Mile of Smiles convoy is stuck in Jordan at the Bour Sai'id port, trying to access the Egyptian-controlled Rafah Terminal, but Egypt is not allowing to convoy to move on to Rafah.


Is this true?


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## T-Faz

Gambit you sure have balls to come here and justify the killing of innocents, imagine your reaction if Iran had done the same, you and others like you would be in full war mode. Your hypocrisy has no bounds, your so called "most capable" IDF commandos murdered people without any justification for it.

I am incensed and outraged by the way you are sticking up for such a condemnable action, life to you seems invaluable, the people onboard could be someone's family who will have to suffer for life now.

Please show some respect for the deceased and condemn the actions of Israel, if you cannot do so, it would be best to shut up as you are really pushing our limits.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Emperor Palpatine said:


> ITs only gonna get worse if guyz like this are allowed to speak in news channels..
> 
> Ever wondered how much hate he would have created and how terrorists could use that hate to recruit ?



Everybody has a view point and has the right to share it . Alikes of Zaid Hamid are easily found in both US and Indian rumor mills also


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## gambit

T-Faz said:


> ..it would be best to shut up as you are really pushing our limits.


I take it there would be a petition to the admin staff to suspend my participation here.  I get it and will leave this discussion before that happens.


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## Meengla

@Gambit,
Trying a new line of argument? Is that the latest directive and 'strategy' to defend the indefensible? I am pretty sure within last 48 hours all kind of strategies have been devised to defend Israel, including insertion of IDF propaganda videos on YouTube, waking up the 'Megaphone' brigade and other ways.
To quickly answer your questions:
1) Israel may have increased the 'aid' (basically bare-mininum substinence -ALLOWED- to enter Gaza) by xyx&#37; but still the delivery was only about 1/4th of the required amount.
2) We are not talking about the Red Cross etc here who were blocked. We are talking about an act of TERRORISM done by the IDF which killed so many.

Boy, you people take others for idiots! Not good for your own survival.

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## Realist

Gambit. 



> All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing



There is an illegal blockade of the waters around Gaza.

There is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

These people want to help in whatever way they want.

Israel wants to tighten the noose, to remove Hamas by collectively punishing Gaza with the blockade. 

By justifying Israels actions here, you are justifying collective punishment of innocents.

But you apologists dont seem to see the suffering beyond that of your own.


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## Meengla

@T-Faz,
@Gambit does not have the 'balls'; he is, to quote N.Finkelstein, 'Beyond Chutzpah'!


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## gubbi

gambit said:


> Of course it is 'precognition'.


IIRC, no country in the world has any laws which acknowledge 'precognition' as a crime. In this case Israel was very wrong in assaulting a sovereign flag bearing boat in what was clearly international waters.


> The aid certainly was not for Israeli citizens. The International Red Cross would have been the more appropriate choice and a highly respected one at that. The IRC would have complied with Israeli requests.


The aid was for famished people in occupied territories. I do agree with the fact that an international aid body of the likes of IRC has more legitimacy in getting aid into the territories. It was utterly foolish of some individuals to club together a group and 'try to violate' territorial waters of a sovereign country in-spite of repeatedly being told not to.


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## Jigs

*Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert*


New Delhi: Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.

Israel said 10 people died while those on the ship said at least 15 were killed.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html?from=rhs

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## arun

I am sorry, but Israel goes too far, too often. Everybody bends and breaks the law but Israel shows open contempt for it. First the pounding of defenceless Gaza civilians, then the blockade, then the Mabhouh killing in Dubai using forged passports of its allies and now this. To me, it seems like an act of war, but we should probably wait for an investigation to be certain. The problem is - who is going to conduct an impartial investigation? 

I hope Israel suffers some consequences this time, but I am not very hopeful. Symbolic protests like recall of envoys is not enough. The attitude of the Americans is the key here, and that makes me very sceptical. This is an election year and Obama might not want to anatagonize the Israeli lobby.

I am also angry at the organizers of the flotilla for endangering the lives of civilians. On the other hand, the blockade of Gaza is patently illegal. Anyway, it will probably help the cause of the people of Gaza.

Sometimes I feel that it would be best if India didn't buy so many weapons from Israel. But then I remember that we have to live in the real world. I just hope that the Indian government tells Israel that it is going too far.

PS: Somebody posted maps which depicted the shrinking of land where Palestinians live. It appears to me that a viable Palestine is just a pipe dream now.

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## Realist

Jigs said:


> *Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert*
> QUOTE]
> 
> What could 'unprecedented action' be?

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## Gin ka Pakistan

I pray Talat Hussain be alive.


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## TechLahore

xdrive said:


> Yes. The aid boats ran the Israeli Navy blockcade and then when the soldiers boarded the boat, the aid workers tried to push the soldiers over board so they could get to the shore.



Do Israeli soldiers also shoot the jewish settlers to death when they violate Israeli law and push Israeli troops around? Firstly, I believe this is an absolute lie by Israel that people on the boats were posing any threat, much less a serious threat, to Israeli commandos. Secondly, even if someone on board threw a non-weapon object that happens in protests all the time. Do civilized, trained police shoot such people to death as a first reaction? And that too, 10 people? These Israeli armed forces troops are the scum of the earth. They show no quarter to unarmed, aid carrying civilians, may they be damned and may their enemies show no mercy and no quarter to these filt.hy terrorists.



> The Palestinian waters are controlled by israel. So you have to have permission to enter the waters. The turkish aid workers didn't get permission and they ran the navy blockade.



Israel has no right to stop ships from entering Palestinian waters. The world recognizes Palestinian right of self determination and supports Palestinian statehood. The entire world is unanimous on this issue. The fact that Israel is harassing and killing aid workers in Palestinian waters - and probably international waters - is a terrorist act.

All these crimes of the Zionist government of Israel will come home to roost. Every day they deepen the hatred against them and the day is very near when the reaction will be uncontrolled. They are no longer even capable of stopping Hamas rocket attacks against the territory under their occupation, much less armed action that is backed by states. History ultimately makes you reap what you sow.

Moreover, if Pakistani civilians have been killed I seriously hope - SERIOUSLY HOPE - that the Pakistani government, Armed forces and intelligence agencies take note of this. Israel goes around conducting rampant acts of terror on other nations' soil, e.g. the Dubai assassination, it is high time they were dealt with with a big, big stick. They are digging a deep, deep hole for themselves... they can say goodbye to Turkish support of any kind for a long time to come.

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## Meengla

gubbi said:


> territorial waters [/B]of a sovereign country in-spite of repeatedly being told not to.



Except the Flotilla never entered nor was ever planning to enter the 'Territorial waters' of Israel. 

Wanna to try something again?

Word of caution to the Indian bloggers here and elsewhere: The world can see that your bad relationship with Pakistan is clouding your judgements regarding ALL MUSLIMS. I have been to several international Forums today and, other than the obvious occasional Megaphone-brigage implants, there is widespread condemnation of Israel today. 

Indians stabbed Iran in the back some time ago with the nuclear vote. And today they are doing a good job pi$$ing off Arabs and Turks as well. At least for the sake of pragmatism, if not for the sake of humanity, don't be on the wrong side of history? To this day I believe Indians are a far better people than Israelis are. We share a lot in common. Don't buy too much into the Israeli crap and learn to live in Asia where you belong.

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## Vande Mataram

So called "civilians":
YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

What's REALLY on the ship: Part II:


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## TechLahore

gambit said:


> Of course it is 'precognition'. The aid certainly was not for Israeli citizens. The International Red Cross would have been the more appropriate choice and a highly respected one at that. The IRC would have complied with Israeli requests.



Are you seriously defending the cold blooded Israeli actions here? Did you also defend Israeli soldiers when they rolled a bulldozer over Rachel Corrie, the young american girl?

American Killed by Israel 

Did you also consider this a proportionate response?

I mean, really... you, a military professional of all people, should know that there are norms of military conduct and an adherence to the notion of proportional response. You do not shoot live bullets at unarmed individuals and kill 10 or 12 of them, specially when they are aid workers, if you have a shred of humanity and professionalism in you. 

PLEASE don't associate yourself and your flag with this inhumane Israeli barbarity. It does America no good, for sure. And if you do support the cold blooded Israeli murders, please say so in as many words so that we know where you stand.

This is a savage act and Israel must be made to pay, one way or another. Let us see what the Turkish reaction is in the days to come. History ultimately metes out justice. I am afraid the Israelis will not enjoy what the next hundred years have in store for them. And when it comes, it will be of their own damn doing.

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## Realist

Vande.

Are those images from the IDF?

The SAME people who now have to justify their stupid pathetic actions to the whole world? 

If you, then you lose.


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## Rafael

Vande Mataram said:


> So called "civilians":
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
> 
> What's REALLY on the ship: Part II:



Get a life dude!


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## Jigs

Realist said:


> Vande.
> 
> Are those images from the IDF?
> 
> The SAME people who now have to justify their stupid pathetic actions to the whole world?
> 
> If you, then you lose.



They are. They took down the video i had posted up earlier in the thread and posted their own videos.


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## T-Faz

Solomon is back in the house, Pakistan gov had to lift the Facebook ban today, now this thread will be reenergised.


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## Vande Mataram

Realist said:


> Vande.
> 
> Are those images from the IDF?
> 
> The SAME people who now have to justify their stupid pathetic actions to the whole world?
> 
> If you, then you lose.



Realist, why don't you watch the video. Then tell me.
Does it matter where it came from, just look at the god dam* video man.

Why does these "civilians" have iron rods, and knives????

I heard there was a 18 month baby on board too.

Sad to hear. But justify to me their actions. What hell is this? Civilians throwing IDF commandos outside the boat??? Beating them with rods???

Now you blame Israel????


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## TechLahore

adir said:


> Israel Now consider to sand a aid convoy to kurdistan and Armenia.



Send Netanyahu with the aid convoy and we'll solve a lot of our problems in one go.

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## Vande Mataram

raheel1 said:


> Get a life dude!



Keep denying the evidence.
You think that video of people beating the IDF forces is "morphed" or something?

leave aside the picture, sure it coulda been photoshopped, don't even believe that.

Before accusing me of spreading "bias"
WATCH the video. Comment on IT. I don't need this other crap.


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## TechLahore

gambit said:


> Why are they not weapons?



Of course they are... vicious long range kitchen knives. WMDs, by some definitions.

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## Jigs

TechLahore said:


> Send Netanyahu with the aid convoy and we'll solve a lot of our problems in one go.



I think a few options will happen here. Turkey will demand the supplies by brought into Gaza. We could get the navy deployed in international waters and or have them escort another convoy. They could also take this matter to the U.N. with the support of other countries which i am sure we will already do. Israel at this point is screwed.

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## Realist

Vande Mataram said:


> Realist, why don't you watch the video. Then tell me.
> Does it matter where it came from, just look at the god dam* video man.
> 
> Why does these "civilians" have iron rods, and knives????
> 
> I heard there was a 18 month baby on board too.
> 
> Sad to hear. But justify to me their actions. What hell is this? Civilians throwing IDF commandos outside the boat??? Beating them with rods???
> 
> Now you blame Israel????



You believe IDF media? They are the masters of spin, and they have gotten inside you too now.

Think with an open mind. 

Prove conclusively that the flotilla, with its crew of aid workers, a holocaust survivor, an acclaimed author and a bunch of German MP's had any thoughts of attacking the Israeli Navy. 

Why would these people attack the IDF, knowing full well that they could be sunk straight away by missiles, jets, helicopters, submarines or ships. What did they have to gain?

Another more plausible scenario to me is an IDF commando shooting first, *as everyone on the flottilla has said*. The crew trying to stop the shooting by subduing the shooter followed by more shooting. 

Take that IDF propaganda piece out of here, it has no credibility, and neither do you.


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## Vande Mataram

TechLahore said:


> Of course they are... vicious long range kitchen knives. WMDs, by some definitions.



TechLahore, better question:
What ARE they doing on THAT ship.

Same goes with the metal rods too.
Do you have an answer?


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## Realist

@Jig

I hope they dont try to act through the UN alone. The UN has no credibility and is powerless to stop anything Israel does.

Vande.

You serious man?

Its a SHIP, its going to have all sorts of bits and pieces on board. My kitchen has knives in it, am i going to get shot for that too now?


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## Hyde

Vande Mataram said:


> TechLahore, better question:
> What ARE they doing on THAT ship.
> 
> Same goes with the metal rods too.
> Do you have an answer?



who can confirm if these Long Range Kitchen Knives were there in the ship when they were captured? and even if it was true that they found these Long Range Kitchen Knives in the ship they should have been arrested instead - not executed


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## Meengla

TechLahore said:


> * I am afraid the Israelis will not enjoy what the next hundred years has in store for them. And when it comes, it will be of their own damn doing*.



I remember having a good converation with my American friends. They asked me what did I think of an eventual solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem. I told them that unless Israelis learn to think of themselves as part of the Middle East instead of as a 'frontier state of the West' they will eventually be engulfed by the greater and greater populations of non-Jews both in and outside of Israel. The days of packing up people in freight-train and hauling them off to concentration camps are over to solve the demographic problems.

Israel, with its superior technology, great universities, and many good institutions can be the real magnet for progress in the region. For that to happen the inherent sense of entitlement to the whole, or at least the best kind of land, 'between the seas' will have to be given up. For that to happen Israel needs to act like a true Semite nation, part of the Middle East instead of having delusions of grandeur like being the 'frontier of the West'. For that to happen Israelis need to look at the Palestinians as fellow human beings. It is not hard to do: It happened in South Africa. It can happen and work even better in Israel-Palestine.


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## Rafael

Vande Mataram said:


> Keep denying the evidence.
> You think that video of people beating the IDF forces is "morphed" or something?
> 
> leave aside the picture, sure it coulda been photoshopped, don't even believe that.
> 
> Before accusing me of spreading "bias"
> WATCH the video. Comment on IT. I don't need this other crap.



How ignorant one has to be to see the obvious? Oh i forgot you are an indian 

Where does the video starts from? When supposedly an Israeli commando tries to land on a ship that belongs to a Sovereign state. What happened before that? Seems like you have missed those parts which have been posted and now "removed" by youtube and other websites intentionally, isn't it?

Forget about it, just tell me why would IDF attack a flagged ship on international waters? and regarding weapons you could find these sort of things in every indian home, so are you guys terrorists?

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## Jigs

Realist said:


> @Jig
> 
> I hope they dont try to act through the UN alone. The UN has no credibility and is powerless to stop anything Israel does.
> 
> Vande.
> 
> You serious man?
> 
> Its a SHIP, its going to have all sorts of bits and pieces on board. My kitchen has knives in it, am i going to get shot for that too now?



If Israel is forced to lift the blockade on Gaza it would be a crushing blow to their control and would mean a huge increase in aid to Gaza. Erdogan needs to react aggressively on this matter. I don't want us to come out weak in this one. Turkey needs to prove that what Israel did will be met with hard consequences.

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## Vande Mataram

Realist said:


> You believe IDF media? They are the masters of spin, and they have gotten inside you too now.
> 
> Think with an open mind.
> 
> Prove conclusively that the flotilla, with its crew of aid workers, a holocaust survivor, an acclaimed author and a bunch of German MP's had any thoughts of attacking the Israeli Navy.
> 
> Why would these people attack the IDF, knowing full well that they could be sunk straight away by missiles, jets, helicopters, submarines or ships. What did they have to gain?
> 
> Another more plausible scenario to me is an IDF commando shooting first, *as everyone on the flottilla has said*. The crew trying to stop the shooting by subduing the shooter followed by more shooting.
> 
> Take that IDF propaganda piece out of here, it has no credibility, and neither do you.



Well sir, you haven't established any credibility by stating to me these "plausible scenarios"

Show me your evidence.

The video i showed you, as the commandos are being dropped, people started mugging them, and throwing, hitting them.

You got any video of IDF solders storming in hitting the solders??
If not, why do you argue against saying this is "propaganda"

If you say I'm wrong, *prove* it. If you dismiss my evidence saying it's propaganda, why don't you *prove* to me your evidence.

@Who knows, people can be stupid...
You can't forsee what these people woulda done, or are doing.

There are pretty screwed up people on this earth. We all know that.

Don't believe you eyes, fine keep believing what you want to "think".
Again, if you got no evidence, what credibility you have?

Are these your opinions??


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## T-Faz

Vande Mataram said:


> Keep denying the evidence.
> You think that video of people beating the IDF forces is "morphed" or something?
> 
> leave aside the picture, sure it coulda been photoshopped, don't even believe that.
> 
> Before accusing me of spreading "bias"
> WATCH the video. Comment on IT. I don't need this other crap.



*They were attacked with a metal rod because they opened fire from a helicopter before boarding. You should not only watch what happened then but what preceded it.*

Watch Press Tv Live | Presss Tv Online | Press Tv Live Stream Free

*Look at this video, it starts half way through and shows IDF firing on the ship and people running away.

Yu can tell who was the aggressor here.

*

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## Realist

The lifting of the blockade will be a good thing. I hope Turkey and Erdogan pull through, with Turkey 1000000000000&#37;.

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## Vande Mataram

Realist said:


> @Jig
> 
> I hope they dont try to act through the UN alone. The UN has no credibility and is powerless to stop anything Israel does.
> 
> Vande.
> 
> You serious man?
> 
> Its a SHIP, its going to have all sorts of bits and pieces on board. My kitchen has knives in it, am i going to get shot for that too now?



Ok, dismiss the picture.
Tell me about the video.

Sure your ship may have these kitchen knives, and these poles.
But how do you justify the people hitting the IDF forces?

Please answer this before anything else.



Zaki said:


> who can confirm if these Long Range Kitchen Knives were there in the ship when they were captured? and even if it was true that they found these Long Range Kitchen Knives in the ship they should have been arrested instead - not executed



Same as above. They may be kitchen knives, but these people used them against the IDF forces.

I got kitchen knives too. And i'm pretty sure I can kill someone with it too.



raheel1 said:


> How ignorant one has to be to see the obvious? Oh i forgot you are an indian
> 
> Where does the video starts from? When supposedly an Israeli commando tries to land on a ship that belongs to a Sovereign state. What happened before that? Seems like you have missed those parts which have been posted and now "removed" by youtube and other websites intentionally, isn't it?
> 
> Forget about it, just tell me why would IDF attack a flagged ship on international waters? and regarding weapons you could find these sort of things in every indian home, so are you guys terrorists?



I'm sorry, i stopped reading after your first line.
Shows how much bias, crap, ETC you have and I don't need to read the rest of the post because I can see your credibility already. Keep up those posts mate. I know the other members here support them.




Jigs said:


> If Israel is forced to lift the blockade on Gaza it would be a crushing blow to their control and would mean a huge increase in aid to Gaza. Erdogan needs to react aggressively on this matter. I don't want us to come out weak in this one. Turkey needs to prove that what Israel did will be met with hard consequences.



The world supports Israel's BLOCKADE. That's OK.
What it's wanting to know is why the 10 people died.


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## qwerty99

adir said:


> illegal operation lol
> Israel have all the right to do what they did.
> every ship that want to enter gaza need to be checked.Hamass is a terror organization that recognized as a terror organization by the world.If they wanted to dealver aid they could do it through israel or egypt.Israel also offer tham that deal but they said no.Also israeli soldiers open fire only when they were in life danger.



What Israel did there is just banditry and piracy. I wish our fathers (Ottomans) had never saved your glorious chosen a$$e$ from Spanish in 1492.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1492


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## TechLahore

Vande Mataram said:


> Keep denying the evidence.
> You think that video of people beating the IDF forces is "morphed" or something?
> 
> leave aside the picture, sure it coulda been photoshopped, don't even believe that.
> 
> Before accusing me of spreading "bias"
> WATCH the video. Comment on IT. I don't need this other crap.



Very interesting seeing the Indian reaction to this news. 

First of all, Israelis illegally boarded the ship. Second, the fact that the most vicious weapons shown by the Israeli media are kitchen knives, obviously there was no intent on the part of the aid workers to engage the Israelis aggressively. Third, there was no way weapons for Hamas were on this ship because it was a highly publicized aid mission with press from numerous countries present. Hamas gets tons of weapons through other much easier channels. They didn't need this. So the excuses around "inspection" are bull$hit. Israelis wanted to provoke an altercation so they could show the world how they deal with aid workers who dare help the imprisoned Palestinian nation. Fourth, this comes on the heels of an Israeli government sponsored terrorist act (assassination in Dubai), an insult and highly undiplomatic action against the Ambassador of Turkey, an insult to VP Biden while he was visiting Israel, an attack on Hillary Clinton by all US based pro-Israel groups when she put Israel on the mat for their usual nonsense. So there is an anti-Turkish motive established here already. Any sane investigator would consider recent history and the Israeli need to "get back at Turkey" by murdering its citizens in cold blood. Fifth, all news coming out is ONLY Israeli news, which should be trusted about as much as a withering, rusty old nail in a cardboard wall can be to hold up a sack of potatoes. The murderer is doing the reporting here.

But that's all beside the point. Since several Indian posters are jumping in with a vociferous defence before things are completely clear since no news from the non-Israeli sources is really out, my assumption is that the Israel-India nexus is what is driving this behaviour.

It would be educational for the Turkish, Arab and Iranian members on this forum to watch this reaction and remember it well the next time there is debate on threads contemplating Turkish/Indian relations or Indian/Iranian relations. Ten innocent Turks have been killed in cold blood today. Pakistan has called for an emergency session of the UN and OIC. What has India done? All I see here is you defending the murderers of innocent Turkish aid workers.

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## Meengla

Vande Mataram said:


> Also, why bring India into every conversation on this forum?
> Just so you know, we buy Israeli crap, because it's better than Chinese and is more than enough to match the Pakistani made.
> 
> Live in Asia where we belong? my *** Pakistan is the one that tries to suck up to every Muslim Country OUTSIDE South Asia. Deal with India and make friends with BAN, SL, *AFGHANISTAN*.



I am pointing out that you Indian bloggers are standing out for sucking up to Israelis too much when the blogspace and the international media is in general very much against Israel vis a vis this latest incidence. Iranians, Arabs, and Turks are watching you here.

By the way, I told you to learn to live in Asia--not South Asia. Since your misguided BJP came to power you thought you could be part of the 'Alliance of Democracies' crap involving USA-India-Israel. Here is news for you: Israel considers itself part of the West. They don't even hide it. But you Indians want to piggy-back the current anti-Islam wagon and try to extract as much out of it as possible. Not good for you. You push it too much and you are going to see a backlash by Iran, Turks, and Arabs who are part of Asia.


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## Realist

> Well sir, you haven't established any credibility by stating to me these "plausible scenarios"



A lot more plausible than a group of aid workers attacking armed commandos with sticks and chairs.



> Show me your evidence.
> 
> The video i showed you, as the commandos are being dropped, people started mugging them, and throwing, hitting them.
> 
> You got any video of IDF solders storming in hitting the solders??



Watch T-Faz's video



> If not, why do you argue against saying this is "propaganda"



What else is it? It is a justification of the aggressor, to minimise the political fall out of this incident. I like how the IDF added the flag under the knives, nice touch that.



> If you say I'm wrong, *prove* it. If you dismiss my evidence saying it's propaganda, why don't you *prove* to me your evidence.



19 people are dead. Does that not show you how one sided this affair was? On a ship of 600 people, if these people did want to kill the commandos, they sure as hell could have. They would have lost many, but 600 vs 20ish in such crowded conditions , its impossible to believe that no israeli was killed with those knives and bars you so fear.

You will now tell me that a few commandos have been hurt. Good i say.



> Who knows, people can be stupid...
> You can't forsee what these people woulda done, or are doing
> There are pretty screwed up people on this earth. We all know that
> Don't believe you eyes, fine keep believing what you want to "think".



Oh the irony...


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## Vande Mataram

T-Faz said:


> *They were attacked with a metal rod because they opened fire from a helicopter before boarding. You should not only watch what happened then but what preceded it.*
> 
> Watch Press Tv Live | Presss Tv Online | Press Tv Live Stream Free
> 
> *Look at this video, it starts half way through and shows IDF firing on the ship and people running away.
> 
> Yu can tell who was the aggressor here.
> 
> *



Can't open video.
Its saying "Waiting for Video"

could you post on youtube perhaps?
I haven't seen a video like this. Had there been such an instance, i have no problem with changing my stance.

Thank you for your post.
I'd like to see this video.


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## Jigs

@Vande Mataram that is false the world does in no way support a blockade of aid to Gaza. 



"UN says Gaza blockade hinders reconstruction aid"

"Israel should end the blockade of Gaza, cease evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes, and ensure that the rights of children are respected and that all allegations of torture and ill-treatment are promptly investigated and perpetrators prosecuted, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said in an annual report"

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## Jigs



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## Vande Mataram

Realist said:


> A lot more plausible than a group of aid workers attacking armed commandos with sticks and chairs.



*Plausable*  
ok.





> Watch T-Faz's video


Can't open. Please post on youtube r another site. I can't comment on this yet.



> What else is it? It is a justification of the aggressor, to minimise the political fall out of this incident. I like how the IDF added the flag under the knives, nice touch that.



my side too: I like how the Palestinians are trying to justify their aggression on the IDF commandos.



> 19 people are dead. Does that not show you how one sided this affair was? On a ship of 600 people, if these people did want to kill the commandos, they sure as hell could have. They would have lost many, but 600 vs 20ish in such crowded conditions , its impossible to believe that no israeli was killed with those knives and bars you so fear.



Again, your reasoning makes sense, but you don't know the reality. Speculating doesn't get us anywhere.


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## Jigs

Turkey's FM speaks

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## arun

I also agree that the world does not support the blockading of Gaza. Both UN and EU delegations have asked Israel to lift it. It is largely because of the American support that Israel is able to carry on with this inhumane collective punishment.

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## Zillay_Khan

Attrocieties against the homeless refugees , the poor and any any innocent people no matter what shape faith or colour is utterly disgusting it not just tests our wits but our moraleity and dignity and above all our humanity which , unfortunetly many of us in this day and age are loosing.

The sad plight of our palestinian brothers saddens me, we hear bigotted media reports governed and sensored by politicians. If only people could open there eyes and see, that it is not religion Oh no sir not any faith which is breading terrorism it is infact double standards, it is hypocriticial definations of right and wrong be it in matters of faith or action , it is the corruption of morals and the surpressing of Our freedoms such as the right to justice which breeds hatred and for that it is a shame that such nations claim to be civilised yet , there sense of justice is simply summarised in one sentance " Do as we say but do not say what we do". I pray That we will all realise that in essence we are one and that one day all people would search for that hero in side themselves. 

God bless you all, and May the Lord almighty protect Our brothers and sisters in palestine , amen


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## Vande Mataram

Jigs said:


> @Vande Mataram that is false the world does in no way support a blockade of aid to Gaza.
> 
> "UN says Gaza blockade hinders reconstruction aid"
> 
> "Israel should end the blockade of Gaza, cease evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes, and ensure that the rights of children are respected and that all allegations of torture and ill-treatment are promptly investigated and perpetrators prosecuted, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said in an annual report"



ah comeon, you care what the UN has to say?
Here's something that matters: The US supports Israel's blockade.

Interesting article:
Makes sense  Because Israel is in WAR with the Hamas.


> CAMERA: Israel&#8217;s right to blockade Gaza and to interdict shipping
> Israel&#8217;s right to blockade Gaza and to interdict shipping
> 
> Under international law Israel is within its rights to establish a maritime blockade of the Gaza Strip, since Gaza is ruled by Hamas, a hostile terrorist entity that has launched missiles into Israel targeting and killing civilians, and has also infiltrated and attempted to infiltrate into Israel in order to carry out attacks.
> 
> While allowing inspected food and other essential materials into Gaza via trucks, Israel has announced that ships attempting to transport supposedly humanitarian supplies into Gaza would have to first dock in Israel for the supplies to be inspected, after which legitimate humanitarian supplies would be trucked into Gaza.
> 
> The organizers of the Gaza-bound ships have consistently refused to allow their cargo to be inspected, which seems to prove that their humanitarian aid is just a pretext, and their real aim is simply to break the blockade. Whatever their aim however, Israel has a right under international law to prevent such ships from reaching Gaza.
> 
> The relevant international law covering such situations is the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, of 12 June 1994.
> 
> Blockades
> 
> Under the San Remo Manual blockades are a legitimate tool in armed conflicts. Of particular relevance here, paragraph 98 states that merchant vessels that attempt to run a blockade can be not just boarded but actually attacked, ie fired upon:
> 
> 98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.
> 
> Though within its rights to attack the vessels, Israel did not do so. Instead it put its own soldiers at risk in trying to board and take control of the ships.
> 
> Here is the relevant portion of the full section on blockades:
> 
> SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE
> 
> Blockade
> 
> 93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.
> 
> 94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.
> 
> 95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.
> 
> 96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.
> 
> 97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.
> 
> 98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.
> 
> 99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.
> 
> 100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.
> 
> 101. The cessation, temporary lifting, re-establishment, extension or other alteration of a blockade must be declared and notified as in paragraphs 93 and 94.
> 
> 102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
> 
> (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
> 
> (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.
> 
> 103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:
> 
> (a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
> 
> (b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.
> 
> 104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.
> 
> In addition, under Section IV, paragraph 60 (e) enemy merchant vessels become a legitimate military target after
> 
> refusing an order to stop or actively resisting visit, search or capture;
> 
> This is exactly what the Gaza-bound vessels did, thereby rendering themselves military targets.
> 
> If one argues that they were not enemy vessels since they were not flying the Hamas flag, they would still be covered under the sections of San Remo regarding neutral vessels:
> 
> SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
> 
> Neutral merchant vessels
> 
> 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
> 
> (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
> 
> (b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
> 
> There is therefore no doubt that Israel was well within its rights to establish and enforce the blockade, including boarding and taking over the Gaza-bound ships. Israel would even be within its rights to attack such ships if they refuse orders to change course away from Gaza.



EDIT:
Yes, the world may not particularly *encourage* Israel to blockade. But it IS approved! because these governments can understand Israel's security situation.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Israel had hundreds of ways to stop them without killing any one. 
Many peace loving Jews will not be liking what their far right government has done.


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## was

protests againts israel in milan city in wich i live.
they saying.israel terrorist and fascist


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## Realist

> Can't open. Please post on youtube r another site. I can't comment on this yet.



The vid was pulled from youtube earlier. Does that not make you wonder?



> my side too: I like how the Palestinians are trying to justify their aggression on the IDF commandos.



No palestinians justifying anything. I saw a lot of Turks, Germans and Greek people, oh and some Irish too. 



> Again, your reasoning makes sense, but you don't know the reality. Speculating doesn't get us anywhere



I am going a step beyond you bro. The dots are there, you just have to connect them without the slop that is IDF propaganda. You try.

19 people died
not much happened to the Israelis
Israeli boarding was illegal and could be seen as piracy
IDF has its spin machine working overtime
The stuff on board was aid, not weapons. Armada of hate my arse
There were children on board
Pretty much everyone not israeli says that the IDF fired at them, shame the vid is not up

Vande...do you read your own posts?



> The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
> 
> (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
> 
> (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.
> 
> 103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:



By these standards, that blockade is as good as null. If you want to see the conditions within Gaza we can cook that up for you.


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## Solomon2

More on the flotilla story here: Michael J. Totten. (Totten is a travel writer whose specialty is Lebanon and Iraq.) For those of you who don't believe in reading, Totten links to some videos as well.

Basically, what you Pakistanis are experiencing is the creation of a modern-day blood libel against the Jews. Can't you feel the hatred for Jews and Israelis grow and swell in your veins? What do the facts matter? The flotilla was never about aid. 

Question is, do you Pakistanis have the strength, individually and collectively, to publicly condemn the Palestinian Arab leadership which crafted the incident, or will you add to the incitement of religious-based race-hatred? If you do it's a no-brainer that more Ahmedi deaths are a certainty. (Why seek out infidels abroad when there are ones near-by at home?)

For those of you who choose to remain silent, thinking that such a "middle course" is the least evil, I offer you the words of Edmund Burke: 

_"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."_

I assure you that you aren't the first Pakistanis to think that if they keep their thoughts to themselves and just work hard to make Pakistan's people less poor, etc., that things will get better. I've seen that sort of thinking from Pakistanis before, decades ago. It is no solution at all.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

*@Nima: would you like to comment on what Iran's friend (India) Indian member Vande Mataram is saying*


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## Zillay_Khan

SEcurity situation what a Cr*p remark is that, is it a old indian habit to sleep with teh enemy I know why your genes are always attarcted to such pathetic sense of logic, India and isreal share the same bed thats common knowledge , but just because soemthign is supported by the US does not mean Dictionarys must be made to acomodate there definition of right and wrong, isreal is a nation of immigrant europeans that terrorised and frauded a people and even after international borders were agreed contd building on Ocupied territory of the palestinians breakign more Un resulitions then any other country. A people who only carry stones and a rmy that boasts nuclear technology what they defending against?.

Isreal is Illegitimate acording to jews themselves, its got nothign to do with faith , it is a political issue,it is no wonder jewish rabbis in isreal issue statements like " a thousand arabs to a finger nail of a jew" you call that democratic , the idnians who right for zionism here , shoudl shut there damn gobs cos honestly its gettign on my nerves


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## asq

> ...Am willing to stand corrected once I am allowed to examine the sources. Fair enough?



ources please...Am willing to stand corrected once I am allowed to examine the sources. Fair enough? 

Read the whole thing and deduct as to why would Israel board the ship when it new the cause ans the was informed umpteeen times the intent to help starving Palistenians.

Read the killing by Israel of Americans.

&#8220;It&#8217;ll be like old home week,&#8221; said Meadors, recalling the Israeli attack he survived 43 years ago. &#8220;I&#8217;m determined to land with this internationally coordinated effort on the shores of Gaza to deliver relief to the 1.5 million inhabitants suffering under the Israeli-led illegal blockade.&#8221;

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/freed...00-tons-of-aid-to-gaza-and-maybe-chomsky.html


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## Kompromat

Must read: Turks march against Israeli attack - Europe - Al Jazeera English

---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------

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## Jigs

Israel Embassy protest in Istanbul,Turkey.






Ankara,Turkey

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## Realist

Saloman

Are the countries who are also condemning this attack, namely spain, Turkey, Sweden experiencing this blood libel you speak of?


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## Kompromat



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## Zillay_Khan

peopel like hugo chevez atleats he has the ba**lls to speak the truth.

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## Kompromat




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## Vande Mataram

Realist said:


> The vid was pulled from youtube earlier. Does that not make you wonder?
> 
> 
> 
> No, just give me the link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No palestinians justifying anything. I saw a lot of Turks, Germans and Greek people, oh and some Irish too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's wrong with that?
> I don't care about other people's opinions. And just because those people support Palestine on this doesn't mean they're right.
> 
> In that case, you know the world favored India on the Atlantique Incident.
> 
> Do you believe India was right in shooting down this plane, because the world condemns that Pakistan was flying so close to the border?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am going a step beyond you bro. The dots are there, you just have to connect them without the slop that is IDF propaganda. You try.
> 
> 19 people died
> not much happened to the Israelis
> Israeli boarding was illegal and could be seen as piracy
> IDF has its spin machine working overtime
> The stuff on board was aid, not weapons. Armada of hate my arse
> There were children on board
> Pretty much everyone not israeli says that the IDF fired at them, shame the vid is not up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Comeon, listen.
> Yours is logical reasoning.
> 
> There ain't no proof to it.
> Don't keep giving me logical scenarios and trying to simulate what really happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vande...do you read your own posts?
> 
> By these standards, that blockade is as good as null. If you want to see the conditions within Gaza we can cook that up for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, by those standards, Israel has the right to blockade.
> Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
> 
> Listen what he says.
> On average....... 15,000 tons........
> Ok?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Meengla

Solomon2 said:


> .
> 
> Basically, what you Pakistanis are experiencing is the creation of a modern-day blood libel against the Jews. Can't you feel the hatred for Jews and Israelis grow and swell in your veins? What do the facts matter? The flotilla was never about aid.
> no solution at all.



Nice try. Nice. Nice. Even nicer considering you were thanked by an Indian!

Here it is: FINALLY the NYTimes has an article which allows Comments by users. Are they too Pakistanis? Look at the 'Recommended' Comments?

Give it up! This 'everybody-trying-to-kill-Jews' is paranoia. You guys need some psychiatrists before anything else!

Echoes of Raid on 'Exodus' Ship in 1947 - Readers' Comments - NYTimes.com

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## Gin ka Pakistan

another Moses should come to save people being collectively punished by mighty rulers


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## Kompromat

*Mods:* There should be a "zero tolerance policy" towards The supporters of Israeli state terrorism and towards those who support their Moronic acts against humanity.

*They are supporting terrorism Ban them !*

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## SinoIndusFriendship

And to think all of this is based on FAIRY-BOOK LIES.

TRUTH IS THERE WAS NO ADAM & EVE, NO MOSES, NO "SECRET PROMISE" FROM "GOD", NO RAPTURE, NO SECOND-COMING (there wasn't even a 'first' coming).

The Torah, just as the "old & new testament" *was fabricated lies and DOGMA created by ignorant and power-hungry men.* Yes, that's right. No amount of banging your head on a stupid wall or on the ground will change the FACT that all "holy" books were created by humans.


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## Realist

> In that case, you know the world favored India on the Atlantique Incident.
> 
> Do you believe India was right in shooting down this plane, because the world condemns that Pakistan was flying so close to the border?



I know nothing of the incident, so i cant comment.


> Comeon, listen.
> Yours is logical reasoning.
> 
> There ain't no proof to it.
> Don't keep giving me logical scenarios and trying to simulate what really happened.



All i am saying to you, is dont believe what the IDF give you. They NEED that propaganda to be accepted so the consequences of their actions are not too harsh.



> Actually, by those standards, Israel has the right to blockade.
> Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
> 
> Listen what he says.
> On average....... 15,000 tons........
> Ok?



Israel's Gaza blockade targets Hamas while citizens suffer | World news | guardian.co.uk

Note the collective punishment part...Outlawed by both the geneva convention and the UN. Also there is a UN report saying that 15000 tonnes is like a third of what the Gazans need. I will try to look for it.



> Israel says it allows 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.
> 
> But the UN says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10191106.stm

So no. The blockade is not justified.


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## Jigs

Black Blood said:


> *Mods:* There should be a "zero tolerance policy" towards The supporters of Israeli state terrorism and towards those who support their Moronic acts against humanity.
> 
> *They are supporting terrorism Ban them !*



There are arguments but when it comes to this there is only one side. Innocent civilians killed bringing aid to the people of GAZA. I think the mods need to look and hard at to what is going on here.

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## arun

Nima said:


> Indians
> We owned your *** back in the day, then it was the British and now you're voluntarily bending over. You guys are used to **** sucking.
> btw, I aint muslim and rather have Israel in the neighborhood than all other arab countries but as an Iranian I have enough dignity to condemn Israel when they do **** like this.
> Now go back to sucking circumcised doodools ******



You obviously didn't bother to read the posts by Indians which condemned Israeli aggression and just made a hateful post against all Indians. Pathetic.


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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> If you have an argument try to prove it. Stop sh***** here and there with your random PMS.



Well Nima is right the Israelis are a terrorist nation !


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## Jigs

Black Blood said:


> Well Nima is right the Israelis are a terrorist nation !



"Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an on Monday accused Israel of committing "inhuman state terror" with its deadly raid on a fleet of aid ships bound for Gaza."

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## WAQAS119

Solomon2 said:


> More on the flotilla story here: Michael J. Totten. (Totten is a travel writer whose specialty is Lebanon and Iraq.) For those of you who don't believe in reading, Totten links to some videos as well.
> 
> Basically, *what you Pakistanis are experiencing is the creation of a modern-day blood libel against the Jews*. Can't you feel the hatred for Jews and Israelis grow and swell in your veins? What do the facts matter? The flotilla was never about aid.



I must tell you one thing!!!!!!!!!!! This is not Pakistani libel.. Have you yourself saw this news report??





and now check this out!!!! 






How can you label these as a Pakistani libel???


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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> "Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an on Monday accused Israel of committing "inhuman state terror" with its deadly raid on a fleet of aid ships bound for Gaza."



I second that !


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## Meengla

Let there be no banning and no censure unless one is outright abusive. This aint no Taliban forum.


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## Vande Mataram

Realist said:


> So no. The blockade is not justified.



Oh my.
Then do you read this further remarks?

Are they denying the supplies through the blockade? No. What's being checked is if they have weapons.


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## Realist

Vande Mataram said:


> Oh my.
> Then do you read this further remarks?
> 
> Are they denying the supplies through the blockade? No. What's being checked is if they have weapons.



It has gone with you, from who had weapons, to who fired first, to international law, and now to the contents of the flottilla. 

You are grasping at straws to justify what happened.


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## Zillay_Khan

Vande Mataram said:


> Oh my.
> Then do you read this further remarks?
> 
> Are they denying the supplies through the blockade? No. What's being checked is if they have weapons.



what by shooting people in the process , almost daily they oppress kill and bomb innocent civilians are they also carrying weapons, as the saying goes a bast*** will always act like a bas****


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## Solomon2

Black Blood said:


> *Mods:* There should be a "zero tolerance policy" towards The supporters of Israeli state terrorism and towards those who support their Moronic acts against humanity.
> They are supporting terrorism Ban them ![/B]


As BB helpfully points out, since the truth serves as a total and sufficient defense of Israeli actions (otherwise BB would have responded with something substantial) there is really no effective way to combat it other than censorship.


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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> Oh my.
> Then do you read this further remarks?
> 
> *Are they denying the supplies through the blockade? No. What's being checked is if they have weapons.*



Are you blind or what???

They have not allowed ain in ghaza since 2006.

They Killed dozens while checking that if they had weapons , how pathetic are you !

There is a Pakistani journalist on that boat too , you might wana read his interview.

you would have had a different view if These Bodies would have been your Brother's and Son's. and btw they were not armed.


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## Vande Mataram

Black Blood said:


> Whatever burns your *** is a propaganda !
> 
> you are one hell of a shameless Indian (I dont wana abuse your nationality though so no offense to others) you dont even have ba**s to condemn a crime against humanity you must have been getting some sweet turn on pills from zionists.



You ever condemned Hamas attacks on Israel in your life?
Talk about god damn hypocrisy.

All you people care for last time is "Israel pounded Gaza with F-16's, 100000 people dead"

No one cares about Israel do they? Kids dying b/c the rocket shellings? Who started that? And you people still say Israel abuses Palestine.

Oh I forgot. These Hamas are your Muslims BROTHERS. And these Jews are who... cares.

Don't even try to point fingers. We all know how much you care for the lives of people in Kashmir, and in Israel.


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## arun

Black Blood said:


> Your posts seem very condemning towards israeli Morons when you try to Justify their attack on unarmed international aid workers.
> 
> I can understand the reason why do you do that since you in the bed with zionists and licking each other sideways.
> 
> Coward !





Zillay_Khan said:


> Thats indian history for you a hell of alot of licking , french , british, american, isreali you name it , theyre excellent slaves



Just goes to show that you wilfully ignore our posts that do not conform to your views. It is easier to paint 'Indians' with one colour that way. Not to mention insult. it is still pathetic. No wonder Indians sympathetic to Palestinians aren't posting in this thread as they will just be painted as 'Indians'


----------



## Zillay_Khan

Vande Mataram said:


> Comeon, you wanna hijack this thread too?
> Go throw **** at each other in another thread. Not here.
> 
> If you wanna talk about  licking there are plenty of other threads showing who licks whose  for aid on terrorism. Go post there. This is about Israel.



Oh yh when you start such a thread let me know, then il show you what a politician does isnt licking for a nation, in contrast your whole nation was licking and sucking for over a thousand years and not just me or anyoen else here says but world history is testimony to it,


----------



## TechLahore

Solomon2 said:


> Basically, what you Pakistanis are experiencing is the creation of a modern-day blood libel against the Jews. Can't you feel the hatred for Jews and Israelis grow and swell in your veins? What do the facts matter? The flotilla was never about aid.



This has nothing to do with the jews, and everything to do with Israel. Israel is a murderous, terrorist state. If it were not for America propping up Israel, it would have met its end by now. Unnatural alliances can extend the inevitable, but cannot prevent history from taking its natural course. The founders of Israel were terrorists by any definition of the word and they snatched lands from the Palestinians. This original sin was then defended by a thousand other sins. There will be pay day, one day. And bringing in the cries of "ooo you anti semite", "oooo you jew hater" is not necessary. You know as well as I do that a large number of jews condemn Israeli actions. We fully agree with them and do not consider this to be a religious issue. It is an issue, pure and simple, of state terrorism. We want the biggest perpetrator of state terror over the last 60 years to be brought to justice. 

The jews had to wait a long time for all their Nazi tormentors to ultimately be found and brought to justice. We are willing to wait as long as our jewish brothers did, to watch the terrorist Israelis be brought to justice.



> Question is, do you Pakistanis have the strength, individually and collectively, to publicly condemn the Palestinian Arab leadership which crafted the incident, or will you add to the incitement of religious-based race-hatred? If you do it's a no-brainer that more Ahmedi deaths are a certainty. (Why seek out infidels abroad when there are ones near-by at home?)



Yes, let's change the subject and throw in Ahmedis, and other unconnected issues so that we can spread the blame wide and prevent Israel from remaining in the bullseye over this incident, where it bloody well belongs.

Israel has no damn right to prevent aid from reaching Palestine. The world is unified in this view, and the UN via resolutions has instructed Israel to undo the illegal blockade of Gaza. If you believe in international law, then you must also believe in Israel's violation of it. And if you throw international law out the window over your love of Israel (is that too "religiously motivated" as you accuse our opposition of Israel to be?) today, then please be prepared to see Israel suffer the consequences of the evil it has wrought upon millions of innocents without the protections and civilities enshrined in international law. It is Israel which is creating a blood feud that will end in a very very bad way. What will happen in future is of Israel's own design and making. Israel is its own worst enemy. 



> _"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."_



Absolutely, which is why it sickens me to see an educated man such as yourself defend terrorists and cold blooded Israeli killers.



> I assure you that you aren't the first Pakistanis to think that if they keep their thoughts to themselves and just work hard to make Pakistan's people less poor, etc., that things will get better. I've seen that sort of thinking from Pakistanis before, decades ago. It is no solution at all.



Actually, Pakistan has gotten less poor (please refer to GNP stats) and more educated in the last 60 some years. I think we'll do fine on our own, but we appreciate your concern. If the America of today can emerge from a state where, 60-70 years after its independence it faced a fractious civil war which ended up in the slaughter of millions of Americans, then I think 60 years after our independence the Taliban etc. are small fry issues for us. We're following in your footsteps, it's just that we're doing a lot better than you were 60 years after your independence.

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## Vande Mataram

Black Blood said:


> Are you blind or what???
> 
> They have not allowed ain in ghaza since 2006.
> 
> They Killed dozens while checking that if they had weapons , how pathetic are you !
> 
> There is a Pakistani journalist on that boat too , you might wana read his interview.
> 
> you would have had a different view if These Bodies would have been your Brother's and Son's. and btw they were not armed.



Listen sir, I don't ENCOURAGE the violence!
You think I LIKE Israeli forces killing these civilians????

You're hating on me too much.
Indian flag bothering you?

Why is it you think I'm not humane? I'm supporting Israel's reason they attacked, but I'm not encouraging terrorism.

Back to topic now.


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## Kompromat

Solomon2 said:


> As BB helpfully points out, since the truth serves as a total and sufficient defense of Israeli actions (otherwise BB would have responded with something substantial) there is really no effective way to combat it other than censorship.



You came back ?

On international media There is already sufficient evidence given that Zionist terrorist commandos stormed the boat and killed unarmed international aid workers.

What else do you need solomon ?? 

If you start thinking like a human and not a zionist you would see the truth and atrocities being committed by the perverted followers of Moses.


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## Zillay_Khan

arun said:


> Just goes to show that you wilfully ignore our posts that do not conform to your views. It is easier to paint 'Indians' with one colour that way. Not to mention insult. it is still pathetic. No wonder Indians sympathetic to Palestinians aren't posting in this thread as they will just be painted as 'Indians'




Yes I will genralise, about time


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## WAQAS119

@solomon: why you are quiet on this video????

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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> Listen sir, I don't ENCOURAGE the violence!
> You think I LIKE Israeli forces killing these civilians????
> 
> You're hating on me too much.
> Indian flag bothering you?
> 
> Why is it you think I'm not humane? I'm supporting Israel's reason they attacked, but I'm not encouraging terrorism.
> 
> Back to topic now.




Indian flag is most weclomed on this forum and i do respect criticism but something that you have been preaching is unacceptable.

Man stop thinking who were these who died , muslims or whatever they were humans and they are being killed on daily basis.

If you are willing to speak the truth speak it out loud and speak 100% and don't give us judgment on what might happened.

There is evidence , footage and radio conversations , Israelis attacked an unarmed boat and killed International aid workers trying to feed the starving Palestinian kids .

if you have even a drop of humanity left in your blood you must condemn these acts in clear words.

Times change my friend , today its Palestinians tomorrow it would be you , who knows ???

Support the right cause regardless of what you think about those , hate them because of their religion or whatever.

regards:


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## arun

Zillay_Khan said:


> Yes I will genralise, about time



Great! I will remember to never ever make a post in this forum sympathetic to the Palestinians.


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## FreekiN

Israel's excuse is that they were to do a check to stop weapons from reaching Gaza.

Wait a minute, this flotilla was announced to the entire planet, obviously something like that would not be on it. So why kill so many?


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## Kompromat

WAQAS119 said:


> *@solomon: why you are quiet on this video????*
> YouTube - On-board video of Gaza Freedom Flotilla storm, aid workers & Israeli troops clash



He might be Congratulating his Israeli Terrorists on their great achievement.


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## Meengla

@Arun,
You are welcome here even though I may differ with your views sometime. Don't be too dejected by people from Pakistani side who may also paint the picture with a broad stroke.
No body should be banned or insulted. Everyone must be heard and reasoned with.

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## Vande Mataram

Black Blood said:


> Indian flag is most weclomed on this forum and i do respect criticism but something that you have been preaching is unacceptable.
> 
> Man stop thinking who were these who died , muslims or whatever they were humans and they are being killed on daily basis.
> 
> If you are willing to speak the truth speak it out loud and speak 100% and don't give us judgment on what might happened.
> 
> There is evidence , footage and radio conversations , Israelis attacked an unarmed boat and killed International aid workers trying to feed the starving Palestinian kids .
> 
> if you have even a drop of humanity left in your blood you must condemn these acts in clear words.
> 
> Times change my friend , today its Palestinians tomorrow it would be you , who knows ???
> 
> Support the right cause regardless of what you think about those , hate them because of their religion or whatever.
> 
> regards:



Sir, till date I haven't seen a video of such. Please kindly upload it to youtube and show me. Someone else gave me a link to some blog or Pakistani site, and the videos there won't load.

Here's my version:
YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers


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## Kompromat

FreekiN said:


> Israel's excuse is that they were to do a check to stop weapons from reaching Gaza.
> 
> Wait a minute, this flotilla was announced to the entire planet, obviously something like that would not be on it. *So why kill so many?*



Dont ask questions Kid you can get shot for that too.


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## Jigs

Vande Mataram said:


> Sir, till date I haven't seen a video of such. Please kindly upload it to youtube and show me. Someone else gave me a link to some blog or Pakistani site, and the videos there won't load.
> 
> Here's my version:
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers



I see commandos raiding a flagged ship in international waters. So does this mean i can raid your home with firearms ?

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## Zillay_Khan

arun said:


> Great! I will remember to never ever make a post in this forum sympathetic to the Palestinians.



All i ask is to speak the truth , dont be sympathetic to anyone unless you feel it


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## Meengla

TechLahore said:


> Actually, Pakistan has gotten less poor (please refer to GNP stats) and more educated in the last 60 some years. I think we'll do fine on our own, but we appreciate your concern. If the America of today can emerge from a state where, 60-70 years after its independence it faced a fractious civil war which ended up in the slaughter of millions of Americans, then I think 60 years after our independence the Taliban etc. are small fry issues for us. We're following in your footsteps, it's just that we're doing a lot better than you were 60 years after your independence.



Over all a great post but this is the gem: Nations evolve over time, sort of like species do. I told in almost the similar words to one of my American friends that 'You had you civil war in the 1860's and you came out better from that. So will Pakistan.' He was almost stunned and started giving me an account of the casualties from both the Union and Confederate sides--he agreed with me!

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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> Sir, till date I haven't seen a video of such. Please kindly upload it to youtube and show me. Someone else gave me a link to some blog or Pakistani site, and the videos there won't load.
> 
> Here's my version:
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers



This video is fabricated , where are all of the Flags ??


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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> Sir, till date I haven't seen a video of such. Please kindly upload it to youtube and show me. Someone else gave me a link to some blog or Pakistani site, and the videos there won't load.
> 
> Here's my version:
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers



*Read this*

*Israel accused of ramming Gaza aid boat*



Activists trying to bring aid to Gaza today claimed their boat had been rammed by Israeli gunboats in a "criminal attack" in international waters.

The Free Gaza Movement said its vessel, the Dignity, was intercepted by several Israeli ships as it headed to the Gaza Strip, which has been under Israeli aerial bombardment since Saturday.

One gunboat rammed the Dignity on the port bow side, causing heavy damage, although no one was hurt, the group said.


*"When attacked, the Dignity was clearly in international waters, 90 miles off the coast of Gaza," the group said on its website. "The gunboats also fired their machine guns into the water in an attempt to stop the mercy ship from getting to Gaza.*

*"Israel thumbs its nose in the face of maritime law by attacking a human rights boat in international waters and has put all of these human rights observers at risk.*

"At no time was the Dignity ever close to Israeli waters. They clearly identified themselves, and the Israeli attack was wilful and criminal."

The group said the attack took place as the Dignity carried 16 passengers and three tonnes of medical supplies at the request of doctors in Gaza.

The crew and passengers had hoped to treat some of those injured in four days of the Israeli air strikes, with hospitals in the territory overwhelmed.

The Dignity later arrived in the Lebanese port of Tyre, where it was met by cheering crowds.

Lubna Masarwa, a Free Gaza spokeswoman, said the boat had gone to Lebanon &#8211; despite Israeli navy orders that it sail to Cyprus &#8211; because of a lack of fuel.

Masarwa said the ship was "in bad shape" due to damage sustained in the collision and was taking on small amounts of water.

The Lebanese president, Michel Suleiman, ordered that the Dignity be "rescued" and welcomed back in Lebanon.

Markos Kyprianou, the Cypriot foreign minister, told public radio his country would lodge a formal protest over the incident.

He said that although the boat was neither Cypriot-owned nor Cypriot-registered, the fact that it left Cyprus and had Cypriot nationals on board accorded the government "the right to be informed and to protest".

Kyprianou said he had instructed the Cyprus embassy in Israel to lodge the protest.

The Dignity flies the flag of Gibraltar and is piloted by an English captain. Its 16 passengers include Cynthia McKinney, a former US congresswoman.

It left for Gaza from Lanarca in Cyprus yesterday. The group said journalists on board filmed the attack.

An Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor, told Reuters there had been no shooting, although two ships had made "physical contact".

Palmor said the boat had failed to respond to Israeli naval radio contact and an Israeli vessel had "clashed with the ship". He said nobody was hurt, and the Israeli ship escorted the aid boat back to Cypriot territorial waters.

Israel declared the coastal territory a closed military zone after it launched air attacks on Hamas targets in Gaza on Saturday in response to Hamas firing rockets into Israel. Israel said the Free Gaza movement boat would not be permitted to dock in the Gaza Strip.

The Free Gaza group has made five boat deliveries of aid to Gaza since August, defying a blockade imposed by Israel when Hamas won control of the territory in June 2006.

Aid ships for the Palestinian coastal territory often stop at Cyprus before heading to Gaza, opting for the indirect route to deprive Israel of any excuse not to allow them in.

The last boat to make the trip on December 20 carried a Qatari delegation, Lebanese activists and journalists from Israel and Lebanon. Qatar has good relations with both Israel and Hamas.

More than 360 Palestinians have been killed in the Israeli attacks on Gaza since Saturday. In the same period, four Israelis have died in rocket strikes from Gaza.

The UN relief and works agency, which supports Palestinian refugees and has large programmes in Gaza, said 62 civilians were dead at a conservative estimate.

The overall number of injured is thought to be as high as 1,400 although Gazan hospitals are so overcrowded and short of medicine and equipment that they are turning away all but the most seriously wounded

Israel accused of ramming Free Gaza Movement aid boat | World news | guardian.co.uk



*It is not ENOUGH evidence Is it ?*

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## Vande Mataram

@Zaki, that's irrelevant to this boat issue. Why the civilians attacked IDF forces, etc. Any info about that specific ship?

Nop, not enough evidence concerning this issue.



Jigs said:


> I see commandos raiding a flagged ship in international waters. So does this mean i can raid your home with firearms ?



Good point.
But that's in Israel's interests. You may feel it's violating what ever, but that's concerning Israel's national security. It'll do it. We can't stop it.

But what the world cares about is Israel attacking CIVILIAN things.

Just so you know.
Yes if you raid my home with firearms, there's nothing I can do.

Take example USA in Pakistan. What do you call these drone strikes? Pak govt approve this? Afghan ops? Invasion of Iraq?

"It happens".
I support Israeal and these blockades as long as I can see that they are being peaceful. And so far, i am not convinced that the so called civilians on that boat didn't attack the IDF forces.

If it was provoked by Israel, I wouldn't be on this thread posting in favor of Israel.
Again, so far no one has proved to me that the IDF forces have provoked this issue, instead i got:

1. Indians suck ****
2. Logical reasonings on "what the people WOULDA done"
3. Is Israel allowed to search these boats?


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## arun

Meengla said:


> @Arun,
> You are welcome here even though I may differ with your views sometime. Don't be too dejected by people from Pakistani side who may also paint the picture with a broad stroke.
> No body should be banned or insulted. Everyone must be heard and reasoned with.



Thanks for the morale boost and the 'thanks' 



Zillay_Khan said:


> All i ask is to speak the truth , dont be sympathetic to anyone unless you feel it



I hope you can understand why that statement itself is problematic. There is no need for me to lie on such a topic. If I don't feel sympathetic, I can just keep quiet.

Anyway, an article from BBC

*UN members decry Israeli raid on Gaza aid flotilla*

Members of the UN Security Council have condemned Israel ahead of an emergency session over Israel's deadly raid on a flotilla of ships carrying aid to Gaza.

At least nine pro-Palestinian activists, some Turkish, were killed when Israeli commandos stormed the ships in international waters.

Turkey's foreign minister called Israel's actions "murder by a state".

Israel's UN envoy said troops acted in self defence when activists attacked them, charges the campaigners deny.

"This flotilla was anything but a humanitarian mission," Israel's deputy UN ambassador Daniel Carmon said.

He said the activists had used "knives, clubs and other weapons" to attack the soldiers who boarded the ship.

The campaigners insist the soldiers opened fire without any provocation.

*International outrage*

Most of the activists killed are believed to have been Turkish, and Turkey led a chorus of criticism of Israel at the United Nations in New York. 

"In simplest terms this is tantamount to banditry and piracy. It is murder conducted by a state," Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said.

"A nation state which follows this path has lost its legitimacy as a respectful member of the international community," he added.

None of the other 15 members of the Security Council was so outspoken in their individual statements, issued ahead of a possible official UN Security Council resolution, but most called for a full investigation and were critical of Israeli actions.

Many - including veto-wielding members France, Russia and China - also demanded an end to the Israeli blockade on Gaza which the aid ships were trying to break.

Israel's closest ally, the United States, expressed concern, although deputy US ambassador to the UN, Alejando Wolff, said it was still not clear what had happened.

"The US is deeply disturbed by the recent violence and regrets the tragic loss of life and injury suffered among those involved in the incident last night, aboard the Gaza bound ships," he said.

"We are working to ascertain the facts. We expect a credible and transparent investigation and strongly urge the Israeli government to investigate the incident fully," he added.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has also called for a full inquiry. 

*Draft text*

Based on the stated positions of Security Council members, it is difficult to see how they can agree on a consensus statement, but that is what they are trying to do now behind closed doors, the BBC's Barbara Plett reports from the UN headquarters.

Diplomats say the draft text condemns the Israeli raid, requests immediate release of the impounded ships, and calls for an international investigation, our correspondent says.

Washington will face pressure to join the international condemnation of Israel, she adds.

There have been demonstrations against the Israeli operation in cities around the world and several countries summoned their Israeli ambassadors demanding an explanation for the violence.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has condemned the Israeli "massacre" and declared three days of mourning across the West Bank. 

The Arab League has called for an emergency meeting on Tuesday, as Jordan and Egypt - the two Arab states with peace deals with Israel - sharply condemned the violence.

For many critics of Israel - on the streets and in foreign ministries - it is not just about this single incident at sea, serious and deadly though it was, says the BBC's Jeremy Bowen in Jerusalem.

It is about a pattern of violent and disproportionate behaviour, with Israel playing to its own rules rather than international law, our correspondent says.


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## Kompromat

*Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel over deaths*



> AP &#8211; A protester cries during a demonstration at Taksim square in Istanbul, Monday, May 31, 2010. About 10,000 &#8230;



Mon May 31, 6:39 am ET

ANKARA, Turkey &#8211; Turkey's deputy prime minister says Turkey is withdrawing its ambassador to Israel, canceling three joint military drills and calling on the U.N. Security Council to convene in an emergency session about Israel.

The moves come after 10 pro-Palestinian activists on an aid flotilla were reported killed and dozens wounded by Israeli forces.

Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc says Turkey is withdrawing its ambassador on Monday and also calling back a youth soccer team from Israel. He equates Israel's actions with "piracy."

He rules out deploying Turkish warships in the Mediterranean but severely condemns Israel.

Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel over deaths - Yahoo! News


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## FreekiN

Kick their ***, Turkey.


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## arun

More severe action is needed to deter Israel from doing such a thing again. Something that will at least force it to lift the Gaza blockade.

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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> @Zaki, that's irrelevant to this boat issue. Why the civilians attacked IDF forces, etc. Any info about that specific ship?
> 
> Nop, not enough evidence concerning this issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.
> But that's in Israel's interests. You may feel it's violating what ever, but that's concerning Israel's national security. It'll do it. We can't stop it.
> 
> But what the world cares about is Israel attacking CIVILIAN things.
> 
> Just so you know.
> Yes if you raid my home with firearms, there's nothing I can do.
> 
> Take example USA in Pakistan. What do you call these drone strikes? Pak govt approve this? Afghan ops? Invasion of Iraq?
> 
> "It happens".
> *I support Israeal and these blockades as long as I can see that they are being peaceful.* And so far, i am not convinced that the so called civilians on that boat didn't attack the IDF forces.
> 
> If it was provoked by Israel, I wouldn't be on this thread posting in favor of Israel.
> Again, so far no one has proved to me that the IDF forces have provoked this issue, instead i got:
> 
> 1. Indians suck ****
> 2. Logical reasonings on "what the people WOULDA done"
> 3. Is Israel allowed to search these boats?



If i bomb your home , kill half of your family members then i put a blockade and dont let any construction material in , No food to your rest of family members and starving kids & Medicine for those with gunshot wounds.

Then jigs try to bring aid to your family through peaceful means and i storm his boat and kill his fellows for providing food to your starving family.

Would you support my Blockade????

If you do then shame on you this is all i have to say for you as you have gone down to the least standard of humanity and downed yourself morally to a moronic level.

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## Vande Mataram

I'm waiting on this so called "probe" by EU nations.....
I'll refrain from answering incredible speculations until this report comes out.

Let's respect that and please i request people to not hate on Isreal.
 We'll see how much people value this comment. (prolly none)


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## Kompromat

FreekiN said:


> Kick their ***, Turkey.



No we need to remain peaceful.

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## Jigs

Vande Mataram said:


> @Zaki, that's irrelevant to this boat issue. Why the civilians attacked IDF forces, etc. Any info about that specific ship?
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.
> But that's in Israel's interests. You may feel it's violating what ever, but that's concerning Israel's national security. It'll do it. We can't stop it.
> 
> But what the world cares about is Israel attacking CIVILIAN things.
> 
> Just so you know.
> Yes if you raid my home with firearms, there's nothing I can do.
> 
> Take example USA in Pakistan. What do you call these drone strikes? Pak govt approve this? Afghan ops? Invasion of Iraq?
> 
> "It happens".
> I support Israeal and these blockades as long as I can see that they are being peaceful. And so far, i am not convinced that the civilians on that boat didn't attack the IDF forces.



So you support Somalian pirates ? Since they do the exact same thing. Isreal screwed up big on this one. They not only raided a ship in international waters they killed people on it. You can go on about how civilians attaked them but if someone comes into my house with guns to raid it i would grab anything i can and try to stop them. 


More importantly Israel could have stopped them in a peaceful matter had they first came into *their* waters. They could have blocked off the ships or disabled their engines. They instead sent in a commando team before the ships even came into their waters and killed people on them. 


Usually there are two sides to every story it is good to put yourself in Israeli shoes and think about what they were doing. Everytime i do that i say "WTF where they doing ?" I mean really ? International waters,raid,civlians dead, captured ships, removing vidoes from Youtube. You can not support them at this point unless your so biased that you just block out what happened.

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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> I'm waiting on this so called "probe" by EU nations.....
> I'll refrain from answering incredible speculations until this report comes out.
> 
> Let's respect that and please* i request people to not hate on Isreal*.
> We'll see how much people value this comment. (prolly none)



They have brought it to themselves , is it my fault if i hate Israel for this ?


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## FreekiN

*NON-DISPUTABLE FACTS*

1. Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law, and, in killing civilians, committed a war crime.

2. The Israeli government approved the boarding of these aid ships by an elite unit. They were armed with automatic weapons but not crowd dispersal equipment in case of resistance. Israel must be held responsible for sending in soldiers and recklessly endangering the lives of all the civilians on board, including a Holocaust survivor.

3. Israel has no right to control Gaza's sea. In doing so, it proves that is is still in belligerent occupation. It is occupying Gaza, then under international law Israel is responsible for the welfare of it's inhabitants. Given that the blockade has put the Palestinians there on a malnourished diet and unbearable living conditions for the past three years, Israel should long ago have been in the dock for committing a crime against humanity

*Also, check this out:*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphone_desktop_tool

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## Vande Mataram

Black Blood said:


> If i bomb your home , kill half of your family members then i put a blockade and dont let any construction material in , No food to your rest of family members and starving kids & Medicine for those with gunshot wounds.



Oye, Israel ain't blocking the aid. The issue here is 10 people killed. & Israel searching the ships.

Now my side:
If someone in Punjab (India) shoot rockets at your house in Punjab (Pakistan) would you respond or not?

(Israel is the Pakistani Punjab, and Gaza is Indian Punjab shooting rockets)

I'm on one side, you're on another. I don't say you're wrong, but I request you look at my perspective also.



> Then jigs try to bring aid to your family through peaceful means and i storm his boat and kill his fellows for providing food to your starving family.
> 
> Would you support my Blockade????



heheh, you got it wrong though. They have blockade, but they are allowing the food, and other necessities in. They are checking for weapons. And in that process.... this incident happened.



> If you do then shame on you this is all i have to say for you as you have gone down to the least standard of humanity and downed yourself morally to a moronic level.



No no, again. I do NOT encourage violence. Com on man stop accusing of this again.

Have I called you a terrorist for supporting Palestine (a.k.a Hamas)?


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## Meengla

Well, perhaps the most critical moment of Obama presidency is coming up with the votes/wording of the ongoing UNSC meeting right now. Back in December 2008--when there was a fishbowl-shoot going on in Gaza--Obama 'had plenty to say' once he became the President.
Now he is the President. Will he be like Bush? I don't know. I can tell you that NuttingYahoo would be meeting Bush tomorrow but he is not meeting Obama tomorrow--the planned meeting is cancelled. So, Mr. Obama: Will you please standup and face up the Lobbies and have a real 'change' for a change?


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## gubbi

*The Israeli Attack*


> Posted by JOE KLEIN Monday, May 31, 2010 at 10:37 am
> 
> Well, this certainly doesn't look good. Israeli commandos attack a flotilla of peace activists and supporters of the Palestinian cause--including a Nobel peace laureate, a holocaust survivor and the mystery writer Henning Mankell--in the waters just off Gaza. Ten are killed; *several Israeli commandos are shot, apparently by activists who seized their pistols.* I have several immediate reactions:
> 
> *First reaction*: *This is an insane use of disproportionate force*. It is a product of the right-wing radicalization of the Israeli government, an extremism that Peter Beinart wrote about in his recent, much debated New York Review of Books article. And it will further isolate Israel from the rest of the world. *The US will be asked to condemn this behavior in the inevitable Security Council resolution--if Obama doesn't veto the resolution, there will be hell to pay among the Israelophilic leaders of the American Jewish Community. If he does veto the resolution, his outreach to the Islamic world is kaput. If he abstains, everyone is offended.*
> 
> *Second Reaction*: But wait a minute.* The blockade the Israelis were enforcing is a joint Egyptian-Israeli effort, caused by the intransigence of Hamas *(which, in turn, may be a result of groups even more extreme than Hamas, a new generation of militants who may be the next wave). The sticking point is the Hamas refusal to release its Israeli Army prisoner, Gilad Shalit. And the blockade is not total--food and humanitarian supplies are allowed through by the Israelis, which renders the humanitarian aspects of the flotilla redundant. *The real purpose of the flotilla is to dramatize the inhuman conditions in Gaza*. *But those conditions are as attributable to Hamas's behavior, especially its refusal to release Shalit and to negotiate, as they are to Israel's intransigence.* If I were an Israeli--even an Israel opponent of the Netanyahu coalition--I would be utterly opposed to making concessions to an organization as historically intransigent and violent as Hamas, unless there were signs that Hamas was willing to behave more reasonably. The first such sign would be the release of Gilan Shalit.
> 
> *Third Reaction*: As I wrote a few months ago,* the Gaza situation is--to coin a phrase--a bleeding ulcer that requires aggressive US diplomacy*. That means acting as an intermediary between Hamas and Israel. I was led to believe by senior US officials at the time that there were no contacts--not even secret or third party contacts--with Hamas. That seems hard to believe. There is an obvious deal to be negotiated here: the release of Shalit in return for a limited lifting of the blockade, especially construction supplies so that the Gazans can start rebuilding their homes.
> 
> *Fourth Reaction*: *Hamas has achieved a propaganda "victory" here and will be even less likely to negotiate immediately, enjoying every last moment of the international condemnation of Israel.*
> 
> *Update*: Here's an Israeli account of the incident, which--in Orwellian fashion--calls it a trap set by the pro-Palestinian activists. It is claimed that* the Israeli commandos were armed with paintball rifles *(huh?)...but they were apparently also armed with pistols, which they used and were used against them.
> 
> *Update2*: Right on schedule, the Likudnik Israel-firsters over at Commentary throw down the gauntlet. It's up to "liberal zionists"--that is, people who believe in Israel but not in Likud's neo-imperialist policies--to "choose" between Israel or Hamas. Sorry, but it's a false choice...and I'm certainly not going to submit to some juvenile ultimatum thrown down by right-wing extremists whose knee-jerk support of Netanyahu's sado-masochistic coalition is hurting Israel grievously. I understand Israel's position on the Gaza blockade, though not its crazed macho military nonsense against the flotilla. I believe it's up to Hamas to initiate negotiations that will lead to the lifting of the blockade. But I also believe that Likudnik policies created Hamas just as surely as the disastrous 1982 Likudnik invasion of Lebanon created Hizballah. It is just astonishing how these shameless people can be so noisy and so wrong for so long. In truth, the one thing that might deter Netanyahu from his disastrous course might be if responsible American Jewish leaders quietly sent the message to Bibi that enough was enough, that they're happy to support reasonable acts to ensure Israel's survival, but not this Goliath-like stupidity. (It's interesting that some of the Palestinian activists were using slingshots against the IDF commandos; that's an image no Jew wants to see).

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## FreekiN

This is Hedy Epstein. She's an 85 year old HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR.Most of her family was killed by the nazis during WWII. She survived because of the Kindertransport rescue mission. She was aboard the ship attacked by IDF when it was trying to deliver relief goods to the palestinians.


Israeli gunships head to sea to block flotilla - Yahoo! News

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## Vande Mataram

FreekiN said:


> *NON-DISPUTABLE FACTS*
> 
> 1. Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law, and, in killing civilians, committed a war crime.



That's not the problem here though 
The world you mentioned Sweden, Germany who ever. Their reason to question Israel is because the 10 people DIED on this civilian ship!

The only country concerned with this "violation with international law" etc is TURKEY.

Again. yes this is a fact but my side of the argument is, Israel HAD to do this because to protect it's own.



> 2. The Israeli government approved the boarding of these aid ships by an elite unit. They were armed with automatic weapons but not crowd dispersal equipment in case of resistance. Israel must be held responsible for sending in soldiers and recklessly endangering the lives of all the civilians on board, including a Holocaust survivor.



But why did the civilians attack???? Had that civilians not charged on these commandos, I would be not supporting Israel right now. Because that then gives Israel NO reason to charge on these poor guys. 

I feel devastated to hear there was a 18 month baby. Hopefully he/she is safe.



> 3. Israel has no right to control Gaza's sea. In doing so, it proves that is is still in belligerent occupation. It is occupying Gaza, then under international law Israel is responsible for the welfare of it's inhabitants. Given that the blockade has put the Palestinians there on a malnourished diet and unbearable living conditions for the past three years, Israel should long ago have been in the dock for committing a crime against humanity



You are very true about Israel having no right. But Israel's argument is that it's a matter of it's national security. And the US indeed agrees with it. Like it did in 2008 when Israel raided Palestine with it's mighty F-16's. Same reason US is in Afghan + Pak  To protect national security.


@Palestinians conditions. I condemn the fact that not enough aid is being given. But I do know that Israel does NOT BLOCK AID FROM OTHER COUNTRIES! Israel in this situation was merely checking these ships for weapons!


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## Kompromat




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## Jigs

Might also add that cement is illegal to bring into Gaza according to Israel. Which makes me ask the question...How do they build stuff there after it is bombed ?

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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> Oye, Israel ain't blocking the aid. The issue here is 10 people killed. & Israel searching the ships.
> 
> Now my side:
> If someone in Punjab (India) shoot rockets at your house in Punjab (Pakistan) would you respond or not?
> 
> (Israel is the Pakistani Punjab, and Gaza is Indian Punjab shooting rockets)
> 
> I'm on one side, you're on another. I don't say you're wrong, but I request you look at my perspective also.
> 
> 
> 
> heheh, you got it wrong though. They have blockade, but they are allowing the food, and other necessities in. They are checking for weapons. And in that process.... this incident happened.
> 
> 
> 
> No no, again. I do NOT encourage violence. Com on man stop accusing of this again.
> 
> Have I called you a terrorist for supporting Palestine (a.k.a Hamas)?




Man you are insisting again and again on your baseless claims about zionists.

Watch this , the aid provided is forth of what is needed.


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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> Might also add that cement is illegal to bring into Gaza according to Israel. Which makes me ask the question...How do they build stuff there after it is bombed ?



Come on man , they are Muslim arabs they dont need homes !!

---------- Post added at 11:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------


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## Jigs

I hope we don't just stop with the FM's UN meeting we need more aggressive measures.


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## gubbi

Meengla said:


> Back in December 2008--when there was a fishbowl-shoot going on in Gaza--Obama 'had plenty to say' once he became the President.
> Now he is the President. Will he be like Bus



*Israel's Gaza Aid Ship Atrocity Offers Obama Golden but Risky Opportunity*


> Torture and terror, two terms peppered across the pages of newspapers, spouted from the mouths of news-anchors and stamped across countless websites throughout the first decade of the 21st century, but rarely used to describe the Israeli government's policies towards Palestinians over the last six decades.
> 
> But today, after Israeli forces attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships that aimed to break the country's blockade on Gaza, and killed at least 19 people in the process, an opportunity had materialized.
> 
> The six ships were floating in international waters and each flying the European flag when Israeli marines and commandos attacked them; making the act, from an international political perspective, an "act of piracy" and arguably an attack on "Europe".
> 
> Piracy & Scourge
> 
> In April 2009 Somali pirates hijacked the Maersk Alabama, a US-flagged container ship with 20 American crew on board and 400 containers of food aid (including 232 containers belonging to the UN's World Food Program) destined for Somalia and Uganda.
> 
> In response, *US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for world action to end the "scourge" of piracy*.
> 
> But *what about the "scourge" of Israel*?
> 
> This is not an attempt to draw a parallel between the two incidents, Israel's attack was that of trained government officials willing to kill and injure innocent civilians in order to subject nearly two million others to vile persecution. Surely, that cannot be compared to pirates seizing a vessel for ransom.
> 
> While *this latest display of Israel's use of disproportionate force to ensure the continued imprisonment and suffering of the 1.7 million Palestinians living inside Gaza has, as usual, sparked international condemnation, the scrutiny this time around is profound and palpable.*
> 
> American Inaction
> 
> In any relationship, actions speak louder than words. In fact, action ensures consequence, which in turn ensures change. So it will be interesting to see who talks the talk, who walks the walk, and who is left on the sidelines for all to mock.
> 
> *President Obama - who ran his entire presidential campaign on the prospect of change - has yet to evoke any change in Israel's repeated violations of international law, human rights and past promises, such as its pledge to its closest ally to halt settlement activity in the West Bank.*
> 
> The metaphors are endless, but perhaps the simplest is best:
> 
> If your daughter hits your son and you simply scold her, chances are she will hit him again. Take away her allowance and cancel her slumber party on Saturday and its likely she will learn to control her rage.
> 
> For decades, the US has reprimanded without consequence, occasionally scolding Israel, but more often vetoing hundreds of UN Security Council resolutions condemning Israel for its human rights violations, violence and deportations.
> 
> Occasionally, the US abstains from voting or votes in favor of the resolutions, which happened most notably on six occasions during President George Bush Senior's term. But even still, the resolutions are seldom, if ever, enforced.
> 
> UN Resolutions are No Solutions
> 
> While the United Nations has passed hundreds of resolutions condemning the Jewish state since its establishment in 1948, passing more resolutions and decisions condemning Israel than all the other 191 UN member states combined, to put it blunly, it is all useless.
> 
> Last month The Guardian reported that the US had given private assurances to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that it would consider not using its veto power against UN Security Council condemnations of any significant new settlement activity on Israel's behalf.
> 
> But again, even these assurances, given verbally in a meeting between a senior US diplomat and the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas will accomplish nothing unless actions are taken. After all, they weren't put in writing for a reason.
> 
> The truth remains, *Israel's blockade of Gaza continues to force the 1.7 million Palestinians living in Gaza to live in a perpetual state of "direct physical and mental suffering and anxiety" - fulfilling the most basic definition of "torture", and "terror," which is broadly defined as "the use of fear to intimidate people especially for political reasons"*.
> 
> Foreign Failures & Israeli Ingenuity
> 
> *That this has gone on for 3 years without any effective or substantial international intervention points to the failures of the world powers to hold Israel accountable to its deplorable and peculiar policies, especially the US.*
> 
> But it also points to Israel's seemingly spellbinding PR tactics. Israel may be the only country in the world that can wage a war without fear of political isolation or economic consequence.
> 
> Israel's most prominent spokesman, Mark Regev, Prime Minister Netanyahu's spokesman, immediately, went on the defensive.
> 
> "Our young navy servicemen were given clear instructions to do the interception as quietly as possible, almost as a police action," he said. "But when the interception started, our service men were attacked. We've got unfortunately 10 wounded on our side."
> 
> *But the decision to storm the Freedom Flotilla and open fire, regardless of the excuse of having been provoked demonstrates a complete disrespect for international law and human rights, placing them in a particularly problematic political pickle - which the US will undoubtedly share the brunt of the predicament.*
> 
> Still, the international community has voiced outrage at Israel's actions, with many world leaders condemning the attack.
> 
> Turkey, which sponsored the vessel and had many of its nationals aboard the ships said "This regrettable incident, which took place in the international waters and in serious violation of international law could have irreparable consequences for our relations", ruining a key regional relationship that was on the mend following the diplomatic backlash that came with Israel's assault on Gaza in December 2008.
> 
> A Failed Approach
> 
> But it is in fact, the US that should be most concerned as *Obama, and potentially Obama alone has the opportunity to capitalize on an opportunity to give Israel a reality check, or continue down the path of convenience, oversight and a superficial pursuit of peace*.
> 
> Netanyahu is now finding himself in the worst diplomatic crisis since taking office earlier this year, and it is likely that Obama will have to tread similar rough waters in the coming weeks.
> 
> The US can no longer bank on Turkey, as it had been doing, to potentially serve as a mediator between Iran following Israel's habitual indiscriminate aggressive attack.
> 
> *The irony is, Israel - like Christina Aguilera once confessed in a slow ballad (Save Me From Myself) that never quite garnered the fame it should have - needs to be saved from itself.*
> 
> Its policies have succeeded only in instilling more anger, desperation and rage in the Palestinians living in Gaza and millions of Muslims across the world, which to put it simply, is counterproductive to securing its borders and "Jewish identity".
> 
> The blockade has failed to oust Hamas from power, but instead eliminated over 100,000 jobs (as a result of banning raw goods and freezing trade), creating swaths of unemployed, destitute, and desperate people.
> 
> Despite being challenged by Human Rights groups, Israel has refused to list publicly what it bans from entering Gaza claiming it would harm their security.
> 
> Accordingly, 80 percent of Gaza's residents are dependent on international assistance, primarily UN-donated food aid.
> 
> Even under the assumption that the convoy's attempts to bring aid to Gaza, (the largest effort to try to reach Gaza since Israel and Egypt began restricting the flow of goods into the strip since 2007) was a provocation, in the words of French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner who said he was "deeply shocked by the tragic consequences of Israel's military operation" against "a humanitarian initiative", "nothing could justify the use of such violence, which we condemn."
> 
> Israel claims that food, medicine and medical equipment are allowed inside Gaza regularly. But today's events point to the contrary. So long as the UN and Western powers only rely on their voices to urge Israel to ease its restrictions, it is only a matter of time (and not much) until this news story recycles itself in yet another tragic manifestation.
> 
> Obama Holds the Key
> 
> *There is only one world power with the ability to really bring about a change on the ground in Israel and Gaza - the US.
> *
> The first step for Obama is to slowly begin to admit, to itself, if not the American public, the reality that its domestic policies (due to the sheer power of the Jewish Lobby and other interest groups) are currently dependant on its foreign relations with Israel.
> 
> Until then, the US government will remain bound to its role of blindly guaranteeing any act of Israel's government, even when it is not in its immediate interest.
> 
> What is particularly encouraging is that Obama managed to win even more support from American Muslims, despite his political pandering to AIPAC during his campaign when he infamously announced that Jerusalem should remain Israel's undivided capital.
> 
> No one with any grasp on reality would suggest that Obama withdraw aid from Israel, or to turn his back on its key ally in the region.
> 
> In fact Obama should remain Israel's closest ally and friend. But sometimes the true test of friendship is being able to not only call out a friend for a lapse in judgment but to do something proactive to send a message to your friend indicating that they have crossed the line...again.
> 
> *Obama actually has the power to meddle with Israel's domestic politics, just as Israel meddles with that of the US, through a sustained approach of influencing the Israeli electorate to take matter into their own hands.*
> 
> He must begin to give them signs that the US will not longer offer "unwavering support" to Israel. It won't cost him the next election if it is done right.
> 
> He can take small steps, such as no longer isolating Palestinian leaders simply because they are labeled and made out by Israel to be terrorists, and nothing else.
> 
> Obama has always promoted and positioned himself as taking a nuanced approach to complex issues. This is yet another one.
> 
> In fact, he can start with one of those forgotten UN Security Council Resolutions that the US abstained from voting on, 1860, which calls for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, a sustained delivery of humanitarian aid and an Israeli troop withdrawal.
> 
> *If Obama leads, it is conceivable that the American public will follow.*
> 
> In February 67 percent of Americans expressed a favorable opinion of Israel according to a Gallup poll.
> 
> The same survey found that 63 percent of the public stands with Israel when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, versus 15 percent that support the Palestinians.
> 
> But if you split the results down party lines, you find that 85 percent of Republicans support Israel but only 48 percent of Democrats (and 60 percent for independents).
> 
> These are numbers he can work with.
> 
> The time has come for Obama to truly lead and bring about the change he campaigned on.
> 
> Is it a risk? Sure. Is it possible that he might lose the upcoming election if he embarks on this course? Sure. But *running for President as a first term senator with chocolate-colored skin was a risk to begin with, so he has no real excuse to play it safe.*

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## Kompromat




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## FreekiN

Vande Mataram said:


> To protect national security.



Yeah, because the activists were going invade Israel with chairs and poles and maybe throw some food at them.

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## Kompromat




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## Vande Mataram

Black Blood said:


> Man you are insisting again and again on your baseless claims about zionists.
> 
> Watch this , the aid provided is forth of what is needed.
> 
> YouTube - Israel Attacks Humane Ship



Baseless??
You watched that video I gave you right?

Comeon, as those solders were entering the boat, the people there grabbed them, beat them, threw one off the boat.

That's the evidence I showed you.

You gave me this report of a video channel saying Israeli forces killed 10.

Anyone can talk. I am but talking purely based on the evidence I gave you. And till there is a video of proof contradicting that, I stand firm on my stance.

Not just Al-Jareeza but 100's of other channels say the same thing. But not one posted any other evidence other than what the Palestinians "claim".

Bed time now  I gotta go to school tomorrow morning.

I will look for more online, tomorrow and if you guys find anything please do post =)

@Black Ice, for the last time, I don't want these people to die!


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## Jigs

*Israeli Ambassador to Turkey Levy meets with foreign ministry officials
*
Summoned to the Turkish Foreign Ministry in the wake of Israels Monday attack on a aid convoy headed to Gaza, Israeli Ambassador to Turkey Gabby Levy held a 20-minute meeting with an unnamed senior foreign ministry official before leaving the ministry without making a statement.

An unidentified Turkish diplomat told AFP that Ankara is considering the actions that we may take under international law.

Turkey asked Levy for a detailed report on the fate of all people who were aboard the vessels, he added. Levy was also told that the Turkish passengers as well as the wounded should be repatriated to Ankara in the shortest possible time and should have the vessels released, said the diplomat.


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## Vande Mataram

FreekiN said:


> Yeah, because the activists were going invade Israel with chairs and poles and maybe throw some food at them.



No, that's an isolated perspective.

 The reason is those boats coulda contained more rockets, weapons =)

I don't need to explain more.


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## Kompromat

*Pakistan Mourns those killed in Israeli Attack*




Tuesday, June 01, 2010
By By our correspondents 
Karachi

Protest demonstrations were staged outside the US Consulate and the Karachi Press Club (KPC) on Monday to condemn Israelís deadly assault on the Gaza flotilla that was carrying relief goods for Palestinians. 

Religious parties including Jamat-e-Islami (JI), Sunni Tehreek, Pasban, Islami Jamiat Talaba, Palestinian Foundation (PLF), Pakistan Jafferia Alliance and Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Pakistan along with people all walks of life took out protest rallies condemning the Israeli assault.

PLF under the leadership of Allama Abbas Kumaili protested near the US Consulate. The protester chanted slogans against the Zionist states for their anti-Islamic policies and tried to storm the US Consulate. However, this attempt was blocked by the police. The protestors then staged a sit in that led to a massive traffic jam in the area.

They demanded of the UN, OIC, Arab League, European Union and other human rights organisations to issue policies against Israels illegal act and take a resolute stance against the recurring criminal acts by the Zionist nation against Muslims. 

Meanwhile, the JI staged protest outside the KPC to condemn the Israeli attack. The protestors held the US responsible for patronising Israel and dubbed the attack as an open violation of international law. Expressing solidarity with the people on board fthe freedom flotilla, they demanded of the International Court of Justice to register a case against Israel and its supporters. 

The JI also demanded an emergency session of the UN Security Council over Israels aggression and asked the international community to realise their responsibility towards the abandoned Palestinians. 

The journalist fraternity has severely condemned Israels brutal attack on the international aid flotilla aimed at providing humanitarian aid to the inhabitants of Gaza facing years-long atrocities and blockade by the Zionist state, Israel. 

Israeli forces attacked the Freedom Flotilla bound for Gaza earlier Monday, killing at least 20 activists and injuring scores of others. All the eight ships loaded with humanitarian aid and basic relief goods were seized and 750 journalists and civil society activists were detained.

The interception on the convoy is unacceptable. It is open violation of basic human rights and freedom of speech, Afzaal Mohsin, President Karachi Union of Journalists (Dastoor), told the protesters belonging to various media organisations outside the Karachi Press Club.

Israel will have to bear the consequences of its actions. The journalist fraternity of Pakistan strongly condemns the act. We are concerned about the state of Pakistani journalists, Talat Hussain and Raza Mahmood Agha on board the ships, Mohsin said.

By targeting innocent civilians and media persons, Israel has once again clearly displayed its utter scorn for human lives, peaceful initiatives, and freedom of speech.

He demanded of the government to take emergency measures to record its protest against Israel and ensure immediate return of Pakistanis accompanying the flotilla. 

The protestors walked to the Governors House and presented their protest to the Governor and proceeded towards the US Consulate-General but were persuaded by the KUJ leaders to turn back to keep the protest peaceful.


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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> No, that's an isolated perspective.
> 
> The reason is those boats coulda contained more rockets, weapons =)
> 
> I don't need to explain more.



Are you on drugs ??

The boat was cleared by Turkish authorities .

Man STOP spreading your BUllls!t claims , there were no weapons on that boat.


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## TOPGUN

Jigs said:


> *Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert*
> 
> 
> New Delhi: Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.
> 
> Israel said 10 people died while those on the ship said at least 15 were killed.
> 
> Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert - World - ibnlive



The bulling days are over for eveyone & anyone time to fight fire with fire.. GOD bless Turkey we support you all they way


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## Kompromat




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## gubbi

*International reactions to the Gaza flotilla clash*

Read the comments. Its an international condemnation of Israeli actions!

A totally unjustified use of excessive force.


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## sparklingway

Don't post Zaid Hamid. A bigot is profiting from this sad event to spread his message of hate.

I would like to read, and am reading coverage from neutral, sensible, objective and sane people.


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## FreekiN

Lavon Affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel caught faking terrorist attacks.

How much longer till the "We feel bad for you because you were apart of the Holocaust" effect runs out?


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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> *Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert*
> 
> 
> New Delhi: Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.
> 
> Israel said 10 people died while those on the ship said at least 15 were killed.
> 
> Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert - World - ibnlive




*We have got your Back for anything !!*


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## Kompromat

sparklingway said:


> Don't post Zaid Hamid. A bigot is profiting from this sad event to spread his message of hate.
> 
> I would like to read, and am reading coverage from neutral, sensible, objective and sane people.



Keep your commentary to yourself , i dont care what you like or not , the video worths posting so i did.

Dont tell me what i cant do!


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## FreekiN

*Turkey have said that another larger supply ships will be sent to Gaza escort by the Turkish Navy.


HELLLLLLL YEEEAAAHHHH*
>>Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.
Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert - World - ibnlive

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## sparklingway

Black Blood said:


> Keep your commentary to yourself , i dont care what you like or not , the video worths posting so i did.
> 
> Dont tell me what i cant do!



Because you are war mongering and using religion in a situation that does not require or involve religious rhetoric.

You are free to post videos, i have no qualms over posting sane videos.

---------- Post added at 06:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

Freekin this Turkey threatens Israel news is coming from IBN only. Any other news outlet or IBN just misquoting statements?


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## Kompromat

sparklingway said:


> Because you are war mongering and using religion in a situation that does not require or involve religious rhetoric.
> 
> You are free to post videos, i have no qualms over posting sane videos.



You always have choice to post whatever you want so do i , if you don't like anything better do not reply.

Thanks


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## sparklingway

Black Blood said:


> You always have choice to post whatever you want so do i , if you don't like anything better do not reply.
> 
> Thanks



I am allowed to post my objections.


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## Kompromat




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## Kompromat

*Please discuss Egypt's Role as they are directly responsible for bringing this issue to this extent !*


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## Solomon2

TechLahore said:


> This has nothing to do with the jews, and everything to do with Israel. Israel is a murderous, terrorist state.


I don't think Pakistanis are well-equipped to make such judgments.



> If it were not for America propping up Israel, it would have met its end by now.


That might be true for Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and a few other countries, but is it really true for Israel? American aid was not a major factor until after the Six-Day War. In 1973 when Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on the holiest day of the Jewish year and Israel responded by crossing the Suez Canal into Africa and closing to artillery range of Damascus, America bribed Israel to refrain from destroying its enemies by promising to maintain Israel as the strongest military power in the region. 



> Unnatural alliances can extend the inevitable, but cannot prevent history from taking its natural course.


You aren't talking about the flotilla any more.



> The founders of Israel were terrorists by any definition of the word -


Herzl was a journalist. Sir Herbert Samuel was a British cabinet minister. Abdul Hamid II and Mehmed VI were Ottoman Caliphs. The League of Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWI, and in 1947 the United Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWII, mostly democrats but some dictators and communists as well. All of these helped "found" Israel - indeed, I doubt Israel would exist without them. Do you consider all these people and entities "terrorists by any definition"? 



> - and they snatched lands from the Palestinians.


By "snatch" do you include "purchase"? The issue is more complicated than that. If you want all "snatched" lands returned to the victimized peoples, do you support returning lands taken from the Jews as well? I don't hear anybody offering to give the Jews Medina or a quarter of Baghdad in exchange for Tel Aviv - and the Israelis wouldn't want it, either.

The Jews were promised a homeland in Palestine as part of the great de-Imperialization movement after WWI. Many nationalities, which had been mixed up before, were separated into nation-states: Greeks, Hungarians, Poles, Arabs, etc. The provision for the Jews, however, had a key difference: the existing civil rights of the Arab population was to be maintained. The Zionists agreed to accept this and as proof of their good faith over 20% of the population of Israel is Arab. 

However, the Jews kicked out by most of the Arab countries, where were they supposed to go? When the world is prepared to discuss not just how small Israel should be but how big Israel should be, then I think there will be a greater chance for peace.



> You know as well as I do that a large number of jews condemn Israeli actions.


Many of these still support the existence of Israel. This is an exercise in freedom of debate that Pakistanis, it seems, do not care to experience.



> It is an issue, pure and simple, of state terrorism. We want the biggest perpetrator of state terror over the last 60 years to be brought to justice.


I urge you to study world history more fully to understand how laughable your words are. That an intelligent person like you stands by them without entertaining the possibility of error - is there a better indication of how demented Pakistan has become?



> We are willing to wait as long as our jewish brothers did, to watch the terrorist Israelis be brought to justice.


Are you interested in justice or enforcing your own sense of righteousness?




> Yes, let's change the subject and throw in Ahmedis, and other unconnected issues -


Are you so certain it is unconnected? Isn't it the same sort of thinking?



> Israel has no damn right to prevent aid from reaching Palestine.


They aren't. Read Totten: the flotilla was never about aid. 



> If you believe in international law, then you must also believe in Israel's violation of it.


I believe that judgment should be a matter for courts, and courts should follow law, not the opinion of the majority. The difference is that the accused gets a hearing and alleged violations are judged by their evidence and context of events, not hot-headed emotion.



> please be prepared to see Israel suffer the consequences of the evil it has wrought upon millions of innocents -


Wow, you've really bought "the narrative", as Arabs describe it, hook, line, and sinker.



> It is Israel which is creating a blood feud -


How can blood feuds end? If one party wants peace and the other doesn't, is that sufficient?



> What will happen in future is of Israel's own design and making. Israel is its own worst enemy.


No, TL. This incident ranks as a depraved plot, one certainly not of Israel's making. (Israel didn't make the flotilla set sail, nor compel its passengers to attack the boarding party with clubs and knives.)



> Absolutely, which is why it sickens me to see an educated man such as yourself defend terrorists and cold blooded Israeli killers.


Who is more likely to have a better perception of such matters, you or I? It frightens you even to approach the line of thinking that what Israel does is usually right and just, doesn't it?



> Actually, Pakistan has gotten less poor (please refer to GNP stats) and more educated in the last 60 some years.


True. Nevertheless, public disorder and miltarism has gotten worse, hasn't it? 



> If the America of today can emerge from a state where, 60-70 years after its independence it faced a fractious civil war which ended up in the slaughter of millions of Americans -


I think it was under 600,000 - still a large fraction of America's population.


> - then I think 60 years after our independence the Taliban etc. are small fry issues for us. We're following in your footsteps, it's just that we're doing a lot better than you were 60 years after your independence.


Um, no you're not. East Pakistan broke away forty years ago. Rump Pakistan has been slowly fracturing since. The P.A.'s efforts of the past year may have reversed that, but as Nadeem Farooq Paracha put it, "Anything to do with Allah, or the prophet, and everyone keeps quiet. That's the problem with our country." link 

You're not out of the woods yet. And I think re-considering Pakistan's views towards Israel, Jews, and its own minorities will be a big part of it. 

Consider Germany. Nobody doubts that Germany is a civilized state today (one where civil law applies, not prejudice.) Germany just awarded its highest civilian honor to a man working at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum who spent years of his life in a successful quest to open sequestered Holocaust records. That may be because when the records were unsealed, it was discovered that less than half of them had to do with Jews; the majority dealt with crimes committed by the Nazis against Germans and non-Jewish minorities. 

In my opinion, it is a similar legacy Pakistan must face and acknowledge if it is to move forward, rather than succumb to a barbaric and destructive mentality.


----------



## sparklingway

BBC has some very sane words:-

*For many critics of Israel - on the streets and in foreign ministries - it is not just about this single incident at sea, serious and deadly though it was, says the BBC's Jeremy Bowen in Jerusalem.*

*It is about a pattern of violent and disproportionate behaviour, with Israel playing to its own rules rather than international law, our correspondent says. *

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## Meengla

@Sparklingway,
I don't know what to say about this Turkish 'escort' of future Flotillas to Gazas (Gosh! The word 'Flotilla' will be etched in my memory till my dying days from now on, I guess!). I don't think the Turkish and Israeli militaries are going to allow another 'casual encounter' near Gaza--the stakes are way too high now.

Let's diffuse the situation where Gazans life is better and where there are no Kassams launched into Sderot. I don't think that kind of 'understanding' is too hard to reach, especially now that Israelis are much more likely to 'eat the humble pie' in face of the international condemnation AND of a potential Turkish involvement.

At the same time, let the 'Fayyad Plan' be executed: A unilateral declaration of independence of a Palestinian State along the 1967 Borders to be immediately recognized by the world powers. The rest should fall in place before too long because the Settlements will become a part of 'foreign' occupation needs to be dealt with in a landswap or removal.

There is no point in working overselves up to a 3rd World War. Israelis as well as the Palestinians are equally human beings and both need to be accommodated in a fair way.

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## sparklingway

Solomon is back. Yeah !


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## Luftwaffe

sparklingway..Move on for God Sakes! almost every western and eastern source from media are spreading hate. If some one posts a source.videos pass it and carry on. I can provide you a long list of indian media/Western media that are fanatically extremist in their hate for Islam/Pakistan no one seems to discuss them except for ZH this ZH that. As many videos i have seen of ZH, there is no hate message in videos the only thing he says is beware of those elements and identify, and that statements are more than enough for sane person to identify ZH is not a hate speech puppet perhaps many don't like his way of speech and many likes it, it does not make you in driving seat because now what you said about ZH makes you a bigot as well! what profit does he earn from it? so far people rant would someone care to list his profiteering. flip the page and move on request Mods to close down any threads that are opened on ZH this ZH that fine he is stupid for many therefore lets keep that out of this Defense Forum shall we?!

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## Solomon2

Hmm, while I crafted my reply, four pages of comments were added.

I revise what I said earlier. In addition to censorship, truth can be drowned out by sheer volume. Indeed, I recall the story of one fellow who visited a Pakistani madrassa experienced just that when he tried to discuss Islam with the students; they started a chant and drowned him out. 

How different is that from the coverage Israel has experienced today?


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## Kompromat

Solomon2 said:


> Hmm, while I crafted my reply, four pages of comments were added.
> 
> I revise what I said earlier. In addition to censorship, truth can be drowned out by sheer volume. Indeed,* I recall the story of one fellow who visited a Pakistani madrassa experienced just that when he tried to discuss Islam with the students; they started a chant and drowned him out. *
> 
> How different is that from the coverage Israel has experienced today?



Nice fairy tale


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## Jigs

Meengla said:


> @Sparklingway,
> I don't know what to say about this Turkish 'escort' of future Flotillas to Gazas (Gosh! The word 'Flotilla' will be etched in my memory till my dying days from now on, I guess!). I don't think the Turkish and Israeli militaries are going to allow another 'casual encounter' near Gaza--the stakes are way too high now.
> 
> Let's diffuse the situation where Gazans life is better and where there are no Kassams launched into Sderot. I don't think that kind of 'understanding' is too hard to reach, especially now that Israelis are much more likely to 'eat the humble pie' in face of the international condemnation AND of a potential Turkish involvement.
> 
> At the same time, let the 'Fayyad Plan' be executed: A unilateral declaration of independence of a Palestinian State along the 1967 Borders to be immediately recognized by the world powers. The rest should fall in place before too long because the Settlements will become a part of 'foreign' occupation needs to be dealt with in a landswap or removal.
> 
> There is no point in working overselves up to a 3rd World War. Israelis as well as the Palestinians are equally human beings and both need to be accommodated in a fair way.



It all depends on how Israel wants to keep playing. They full well know the capabilities of the Turkish naval fleet and that their own pales in comparison. They don't have much of choice but to except that aid will come into Gaza because after this they don't have much say in the matter. We just need to keep pushing this along with other countries and Israel will give in.

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## Nima

Vande Mataram said:


> Baseless??
> You watched that video I gave you right?
> 
> Comeon, as those solders were entering the boat, the people there grabbed them, beat them, threw one off the boat.
> 
> That's the evidence I showed you.
> 
> You gave me this report of a video channel saying Israeli forces killed 10.
> 
> Anyone can talk. I am but talking purely based on the evidence I gave you. And till there is a video of proof contradicting that, I stand firm on my stance.
> 
> Not just Al-Jareeza but 100's of other channels say the same thing. But not one posted any other evidence other than what the Palestinians "claim".
> 
> Bed time now  I gotta go to school tomorrow morning.
> 
> I will look for more online, tomorrow and if you guys find anything please do post =)
> 
> @Black Ice, for the last time, I don't want these people to die!



getting tired of you **** sucker
If a thief comes into your house are you gonna serve him tea? The soldiers came in the ship in international waters. Every single one should have been shot.

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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> sparklingway..Move on for God Sakes! almost every western and eastern source from media are spreading hate. If some one posts a source.videos pass it and carry on. *I can provide you a long list of indian media/Western media that are fanatically extremist in their hate for Islam/Pakistan*



Oh please do post the sources, substantiate your claim. I along with many of my compatriots are very interested to see what sources you are talking about.

Rather start a thread and post these sources.

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## Solomon2

> Solomon is back. Yeah !


No more Facebook or Wikipedia block! 



luftwaffe said:


> I can provide you a long list of indian media/Western media that are fanatically extremist in their hate for Islam/Pakistan no one seems to discuss them -


If nobody acts on the basis of these reports, how important can they be? It's not like there is a terrorist arm that obeys the will of (non-Muslim) Western "fanatical extremists", is there?


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## sparklingway

Solomon2 said:


> I don't think Pakistanis are well-equipped to make such judgments.



Humanitarians are allowed to pass judgments over Israel's actions.



> America bribed Israel to refrain from destroying its enemies by promising to maintain Israel as the strongest military power in the region.



There is more than just maintaining status quo in the region. There are sympathies that go deep into the echelons of power.



> However, the Jews kicked out by most of the Arab countries, where were they supposed to go? When the world is prepared to discuss not just how small Israel should be but how big Israel should be, then I think there will be a greater chance for peace.



Let us create homelands for every religious group in the world. Mongols ruled half the world. Let them claim the whole world as their own, for their ancestors had ruled over it and I had promised them the land.

If the Jews returning to the promised land were oppressed and deserved promised land, so do the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel's territorial expansions aren't justified.












Moving on, Israel is a reality and every rational person accepts that. What is to be discussed is Israel's constant expansion and the fact that it is swallowing Palestinian territory.



> They aren't. Read Totten: the flotilla was never about aid.



Even if the message was entirely political (it was party political and partly humanitarian), does that mean that Israel has the right to launch an armed assault on a civilian ship flying the flag of a sovereign state in international waters and murder a dozen activists.



> I believe that judgment should be a matter for courts, and courts should follow law, not the opinion of the majority. The difference is that the accused gets a hearing and alleged violations are judged by their evidence and context of events, not hot-headed emotion.



There are yet to be any hearing over the last war that was launched on Gaza.

I hope Turkey takes Israel to ICJ this time. We'll see.



> How can blood feuds end? If one party wants peace and the other doesn't, is that sufficient?



Debate over feuds can't be summarized in single pages either.



> No, TL. This incident ranks as a depraved plot, one certainly not of Israel's making. (Israel didn't make the flotilla set sail, nor compel its passengers to attack the boarding party with clubs and knives.)



Israel did attack it.



> You're not out of the woods yet. And I think re-considering Pakistan's views towards Israel, Jews, and its own minorities will be a big part of it.



As far as I see it, Pakistan has created an ideological enemy in Israel on its own without any justifications and only to create Islamist sentiments. I am all for diplomatic relations with Israel for we do not pose any threat to each other as long as both sides remain sane (i.e Pakistanis shed their unrealistic pan Islamist wish to liberate Gaza and take active part in Intl diplomacy rather than saying our nukes are for Israel).



> In my opinion, it is a similar legacy Pakistan must face and acknowledge if it is to move forward, rather than succumb to a barbaric and destructive mentality.



Here the issue isn't Pakistan. You have dragged our problems into the debate to avoid talking about Israel's barbarianism.

I am copying verbatim an earlier post:-

I'm not taking the BS of the people being armed. It can most definitely be imagined that a couple would have gotten agitated and perhaps tried to manhandle an armed IDF soldier, perhaps even with some rod or stick, and the soldiers being trigger friendly and having no concern whatsoever of human life killed the people in response. It is utterly beyond comprehension that the soldiers feared for their life and that demanded killing nearly two dozen activists. Had they been trying to send a message to the supposedly "attacking" activists, they would have fired a couple of warning shots or perhaps shot one or two people in the leg. What did they do? They shot dead 19 people on a civilian ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign state that happens to be a NATO member. Will NATO manage to grow the balls to tackle this offensive from a country that seems to be the first priority of our unmatched global power.

Israel isn't a kid with a bad temper. It's a country, a sovereign state and should have the brains to deal with such a situation peacefully and tactfully. Clearly they did not. It can mean one of two things (generalizing by a big brush)

1) Israel thought it could get away with an armed assault. They might have thought that there would no civilian casualties but they thought that they would get away with such an armed assault courtesy some big players in the intl community who are more than willing to suck their genitalia.

2) Israel committed an utter, utter mistake. Perhaps even a failure of the chain of command. Such a big failure is unlikely to happen though.

Israel committed this act knowing fully the repercussions. They perhaps did not imagine such high or even any casualties but they clearly knew that they would get away with an armed assault in international waters, maybe with just a slap on the wrist.

Let me take Iran example out of the equation. Say, Sudan cuts off all international access to Darfur and blocks the land passage (just imagine although Darfur is on the Chad and CAR borders). Now, if Sudanese military attacks and kills intl aid/political activists, will it get away with it? Clearly no.

Just imagine during the independence struggle of East Timor, had Indonesia attacked an aid convoy, it would have faced dozens of economic sanctions and strained relationships besides the threat of military action.

Israel is getting away with killing 19 people in international waters. This is an act of war. Geo-political clout and sympathies seem to have taken the better of logic and reason. I'm baffled as to how one can justify Israel's attacks.

In the eyes of criminal law provocation and murder are entirely different things. This was not criminally inciting murder either. Are you suggesting that if I walk into a gang alley and get stabbed then I should be as criminally liable as the person who stabbed me for I provoked him by going through a nobody's-owned area that happened to be by his den (analogy being roads as municipal owned and hence not private property and intl waters being out of Israel's sovereign boundaries). I might extend this logic to the wearing-skimpy-clothes-gets-you-raped argument as well. Utterly fallacious logic being used to condone violence based on sympathies for a nation with one of the worst human rights record on the planet.

The humanitarian mission had a clear message. They could have taken another route but Israel had to be given a message that the International community will not take more of its BS and let Israel control the situation entirely and dictate the routes taken by foreign aid missions.

They were in international waters. Had they been just a micrometer outside Israel's territorial or contiguous zones or exclusive economic zones, they still would have been under the sovereign jurisdiction of the flag they were flying.

A ship flying the flag of a NATO member state has been attacked. Will NATO send forces?

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## Kompromat

Solomon2 said:


> I don't think Pakistanis are well-equipped to make such judgments.
> 
> That might be true for Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and a few other countries, but is it really true for Israel? American aid was not a major factor until after the Six-Day War. In 1973 when Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on the holiest day of the Jewish year and Israel responded by crossing the Suez Canal into Africa and closing to artillery range of Damascus, America bribed Israel to refrain from destroying its enemies by promising to maintain Israel as the strongest military power in the region.
> 
> You aren't talking about the flotilla any more.
> 
> Herzl was a journalist. Sir Herbert Samuel was a British cabinet minister. Abdul Hamid II and Mehmed VI were Ottoman Caliphs. The League of Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWI, and in 1947 the United Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWII, mostly democrats but some dictators and communists as well. All of these helped "found" Israel - indeed, I doubt Israel would exist without them. Do you consider all these people and entities "terrorists by any definition"?
> 
> By "snatch" do you include "purchase"? The issue is more complicated than that. If you want all "snatched" lands returned to the victimized peoples, do you support returning lands taken from the Jews as well? I don't hear anybody offering to give the Jews Medina or a quarter of Baghdad in exchange for Tel Aviv - and the Israelis wouldn't want it, either.
> 
> The Jews were promised a homeland in Palestine as part of the great de-Imperialization movement after WWI. Many nationalities, which had been mixed up before, were separated into nation-states: Greeks, Hungarians, Poles, Arabs, etc. The provision for the Jews, however, had a key difference: the existing civil rights of the Arab population was to be maintained. The Zionists agreed to accept this and as proof of their good faith over 20% of the population of Israel is Arab.
> 
> However, the Jews kicked out by most of the Arab countries, where were they supposed to go? When the world is prepared to discuss not just how small Israel should be but how big Israel should be, then I think there will be a greater chance for peace.
> 
> Many of these still support the existence of Israel. This is an exercise in freedom of debate that Pakistanis, it seems, do not care to experience.
> 
> I urge you to study world history more fully to understand how laughable your words are. That an intelligent person like you stands by them without entertaining the possibility of error - is there a better indication of how demented Pakistan has become?
> 
> Are you interested in justice or enforcing your own sense of righteousness?
> 
> 
> Are you so certain it is unconnected? Isn't it the same sort of thinking?
> 
> They aren't. Read Totten: the flotilla was never about aid.
> 
> I believe that judgment should be a matter for courts, and courts should follow law, not the opinion of the majority. The difference is that the accused gets a hearing and alleged violations are judged by their evidence and context of events, not hot-headed emotion.
> 
> Wow, you've really bought "the narrative", as Arabs describe it, hook, line, and sinker.
> 
> How can blood feuds end? If one party wants peace and the other doesn't, is that sufficient?
> 
> No, TL. This incident ranks as a depraved plot, one certainly not of Israel's making. (Israel didn't make the flotilla set sail, nor compel its passengers to attack the boarding party with clubs and knives.)
> 
> Who is more likely to have a better perception of such matters, you or I? It frightens you even to approach the line of thinking that what Israel does is usually right and just, doesn't it?
> 
> True. Nevertheless, public disorder and miltarism has gotten worse, hasn't it?
> 
> I think it was under 600,000 - still a large fraction of America's population.
> Um, no you're not. East Pakistan broke away forty years ago. Rump Pakistan has been slowly fracturing since. The P.A.'s efforts of the past year may have reversed that, but as Nadeem Farooq Paracha put it, "Anything to do with Allah, or the prophet, and everyone keeps quiet. That's the problem with our country." link
> 
> You're not out of the woods yet. And I think re-considering Pakistan's views towards Israel, Jews, and its own minorities will be a big part of it.
> 
> Consider Germany. Nobody doubts that Germany is a civilized state today (one where civil law applies, not prejudice.) Germany just awarded its highest civilian honor to a man working at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum who spent years of his life in a successful quest to open sequestered Holocaust records. That may be because when the records were unsealed, it was discovered that less than half of them had to do with Jews; the majority dealt with crimes committed by the Nazis against Germans and non-Jewish minorities.
> 
> *In my opinion, it is a similar legacy Pakistan must face and acknowledge if it is to move forward, rather than succumb to a barbaric and destructive mentality. *


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## Kompromat

gubbi said:


> Oh please do post the sources, substantiate your claim. I along with many of my compatriots are very interested to see what sources you are talking about.
> 
> Rather start a thread and post these sources.


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## Kompromat




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## gubbi

Black Blood said:


> YouTube - Anti Pakistan Speech.3gp



Isolated incidents are not the rule. 

The claim by the member was a "long list" of media spewing hate for Islam/Pakistan. Show us that list.


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## Nima

Imagine if Iran had done smtg like this!!! 
WW3

I love Jews but damn, you're digging your own graves, yet again!
I won't cry though, you deserve it. Sooner or later somebody in the Middle East will go Nazi on their *****. Imagine a ME where the Arabs finally free themselves from the Yankees and a strong Iran+Turkey.

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## Meengla

Okay, the 'Bullshit' amplifier detector animation by @Black Blood (I often disagree with him, btw) made me laugh my head off!!


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## Luftwaffe

gubbi...while the post was for someone else i have not invited you to engage with me on any topic you are waste as on Chinese threads I witnessed with flawed statements. Get over with it obsessed..
prove my claim is it not enough to whatever tom dick and harry takes place the indian media and their honored babbles rant about Pakistan and Islam. Easiest links for people like you go to youtube check out all fanatic video by indian media and their babblers. Do i have to honor your media to start a thread they are garbage i will not waste bandwidth on india media ****.


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## sparklingway

Nima said:


> Imagine a ME where the Arabs finally free themselves



Joke of the millennium.



> strong Iran+Turkey.



Already strong. Although Turkey is sane, wise and far from realistic in its international ambitions as it does not have any aggressive ambitions towards any country.


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## TOPGUN

Solomon2 said:


> Hmm, while I crafted my reply, four pages of comments were added.
> 
> I revise what I said earlier. In addition to censorship, truth can be drowned out by sheer volume. Indeed, I recall the story of one fellow who visited a Pakistani madrassa experienced just that when he tried to discuss Islam with the students; they started a chant and drowned him out.
> 
> How different is that from the coverage Israel has experienced today?



Listen stick to the topic stop bringing Pakistan in it ...


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> gubbi...while the post was for someone else i have not invited you to engage with me on any topic you are waste as on Chinese threads I witnessed with flawed statements. Get over with it obsessed..
> prove my claim is it not enough to whatever tom dick and harry takes place the indian media and their honored babbles rant about Pakistan and Islam. Easiest links for people like you go to youtube check out all fanatic video by indian media and their babblers. Do i have to honor your media to start a thread they are garbage i will not waste bandwidth on india media ****.



I stand by my statements. You cannot. Stop BS'ing.


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## Luftwaffe

Solomon2..move on no clarification needed its all over media about the garbage spelling out of the mouth of western media.


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## Nima

sparklingway said:


> Joke of the millennium.
> 
> 
> 
> Already strong. Although Turkey is sane, wise and far from realistic in its international ambitions as *it does not have any aggressive ambitions towards any country*.



joke of the year
Turkey is much much more aggressive then Iran will ever be and their people are border line fascists in their nationalism. Take it from a half Iranian "turk" (don't speak turkish though).
Iran and Turkey are both drooling over Iraqi oil.


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## Jigs

Anyone have any new developments in this matter ? it seems new info has slowed down. What is going on with the people on the aid convoy in Israel ?


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## Luftwaffe

gubbi..and your statements are BS and garbage, Loser. I pointed you to youtube go there watch all the stinky garbage out of your media.


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## Solomon2

Black Blood said:


> Nice fairy tale


_I began by saying that bin Ladens program violates a basic tenet of Islam, which holds that even in a jihad the lives of innocent people must be spared. A jihad is a war against combatants, not women and children. I read to them an appropriate saying of the Prophet Muhammad (I came armed with the Hadith): It is narrated by Ibn Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles, so the Messenger of Allah, may peace be upon him, forbade the killing of women and children.

They did not like the idea of me quoting the Prophet to them, and they began chanting, Osama, Osama, Osama._ link


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## Nima

Israelis celebrating attack on Turkish Aid Ship - infront of Turkish Embassy,Tel Aviv

If it doesn't play then just click on the top where it says "live leak redefining the media" 

********.com - Redefining the Media

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## Comet

Is it me or are they trying to humiliate "Kalma" by placing it on floor and putting all those knives on it. It sort of symbolize the relation between Islam and violence.

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## Jigs

Solomon2 said:


> _I began by saying that bin Ladens program violates a basic tenet of Islam, which holds that even in a jihad the lives of innocent people must be spared. A jihad is a war against combatants, not women and children. I read to them an appropriate saying of the Prophet Muhammad (I came armed with the Hadith): It is narrated by Ibn Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles, so the Messenger of Allah, may peace be upon him, forbade the killing of women and children.
> 
> They did not like the idea of me quoting the Prophet to them, and they began chanting, Osama, Osama, Osama._ link



And this has to do what with the aid convoy or Israel or Turkey ?


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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> Anyone have any new developments in this matter ? it seems new info has slowed down. What is going on with the people on the aid convoy in Israel ?



Welcome to the land of Zionists !


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## Meengla

Solomon2 said:


> prepared to discuss not just how small Israel should be but how big Israel should be, then I think there will be a greater chance for peace.[/B].



Jews being kicked out by 'most Arab countries'? Why have they not been kicked out of Turkey then, if you are really implying some religioun-based 'cause-n-effect' theory? And what is 'most' Arab countries? There are at least 22 Arab countries. Most are NOT oil-rich. But most were somehow colonized by mid-20th century--too colonized to make indepedent decision which now the States of Turkey or Iran or Pakistan or Egypt can make.

As to your second argument about how large or small Israel should be before there can be peace, I have to say it is the first time I have heard this line of argument! Normally, I hear the Zionists condemn Americans for gobbling up American-Indian land if they encounter Americans bloggers. Normally, I hear Zionists condemn Australians over the Aboriginis land gobbing up. Heck, i have even seen a few Zionists condemn some conscious Indian bloggers (a certain @Ravi at Haaretz) because India was gobbling up Kashmir!

But you take the cake! You are basically saying that: Let me take what I want to take right now. Later on, in some spirit of magnanimity, I may give you more than you wish or deserve.

You see: You take the world for being stupid. And I you are also paranoid.

Grow up.


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## Kompromat

Solomon2 said:


> _I began by saying that bin Ladens program violates a basic tenet of Islam, which holds that even in a jihad the lives of innocent people must be spared. A jihad is a war against combatants, not women and children. I read to them an appropriate saying of the Prophet Muhammad (I came armed with the Hadith): It is narrated by Ibn Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles, so the Messenger of Allah, may peace be upon him, forbade the killing of women and children.
> 
> They did not like the idea of me quoting the Prophet to them, and they began chanting, Osama, Osama, Osama._ link



Solomon dont run away from the topic.

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

*Update:*


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## Kompromat




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## Jigs

I bet Israel is putting weapons on those ships as we speak to make it look like they where shot at.


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## Comet

Let me summarize every thing according to my knowledge (correct me If I am wrong).

According to the "Terrorist Sympathizers":
1) Israel has right to blockade the Gaza strip. 
2) Israel has right to attack any vessel in international waters. 
3) Israel has right to open fire on unarmed civilians.


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## sparklingway

My friends' two cents:-

I heard there was a president of a superpower and he had got a Peace Nobel prize too. Haven't seen him around.

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## Kompromat

*Australian among those hurt in Israeli raid
BY DAVID MCLENNAN AT PARLIAMENT HOUSE
01 Jun, 2010 10:54 AM*



One Australian is among dozens wounded during an Israeli commando raid on aid ships heading for Gaza, in which at least nine people died.

Two other Australians - Fairfax journalists Paul McGeough and Kate Geraghty - were on board the flotilla of ships taking humanitarian aid to the blockaded Gaza Strip, but were unharmed.

Australian Foreign Affairs Minister Stephen Smith told the ABC this morning that *an Australian citizen had been shot in the leg during the raid, which has sparked international outrage. *

''We don't have any information that any other Australians have been caught up either injured or killed at this stage,'' he said.

*"We are, through our officials, strenuously trying to ascertain the whereabouts and welfare of any other Australians.''*

The wounded man was receiving consular assistance, while the journalists had been advised they were open for deportation.

It comes as Israel issued footage of the resistance its soldiers faced as their stormed an aid ship. The footage showed troops coming under repeated attack by a group of people waving poles and chairs after rappelling to the deck of a ship.

Five Israelis were injured, two seriously, after the clash on the Turkish ferry, Mavi Marmara, in international waters off Israel's Mediterranean coast.

Mr Smith joined several world leaders in demanding an explanation and credible investigation ''subject to the scrutiny of the international community through the [United Nations] security council'', while Turkey - whose citizens were the main casualties in the attack - has withdrawn its ambassador from Israel and frozen military ties.

*Turkey is a key ally of Israel and its prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, reacted angrily, describing the raid as ''inhuman state terror''.*

There have been protests in several countries and Muslim leaders expressed their outrage, with Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas calling the raid a ''massacre''.

*Mr Smith said it was a ''terrible and shocking incident and people have genuinely been shocked by it''.*

Australian among those hurt in Israeli raid - Local News - News - General - The Canberra Times


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## Comet

sparklingway said:


> My friends' two cents:-
> 
> I heard there was a president of a superpower and he had got a Peace Nobel prize too. Haven't seen him around.



Sir chorien - aap bhi mazak karte hain


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## Kompromat

sparklingway said:


> My friends' two cents:-
> 
> I heard there was a president of a superpower and he had got a Peace Nobel prize too. Haven't seen him around.



He is cleaning up the oil spill.


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## Jigs

sparklingway said:


> My friends' two cents:-
> 
> I heard there was a president of a superpower and he had got a Peace Nobel prize too. Haven't seen him around.



Obama is very slow to respond. This is very evident in the BP oil spill that occurred and the airliner attempted bombing. When he does respond it is usually with a few statements and he moves on depending on how his advisers react to the issue.


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## Kompromat

umairp said:


> Sir chorien - aap bhi mazak karte hain

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## Meengla

Jigs said:


> I bet Israel is putting weapons on those ships as we speak to make it look like they where shot at.



I don't think that will work now.

The Flotilla had some very promiment and diverse people: Israelis and their sympathizers are trying to project head-scarf wearing Turkish women as the main constituents of the Flotilla--hey, the more 'Islamic' it looks, the better for Israel, right'--but the Flotilla had an Irish Nobel Peace Prize winner AND a Holocaust Survivor, amongst many other people like American Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney , Adam Shapiro (a Jewish journalist).

My understanding is that the Flotilla was throughly checked out before starting their journey because they knew what they were up against: The most organized propaganda machine the world has seen since at least the 2nd world war. No weapons were allowed. Oh, except for kitchen knives and brooms and other similar WMDs....

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## Jigs

Just in from CNN Turk a spokesperson said that if the Turkish civilians are not returned to Turkey diplomatic and military action will be taken.


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## fallstuff

Vande Mataram said:


> ,



Someone call BR, they are missing a troll. 


Pulling a line over and over does not make it a valid argument. It is actually qualifies as propaganda. If you are mo*on enough to buy that Israel had to do it argument, than there is the Brooklyn Bridge for sale.



> Israel in this situation was merely checking these ships for weapons!


Apparently Israelis sent a message to you about checking weapons. The message you sent out from your post is you hate Muslims. You hate Muslims with a passion. On the next post say it out loud. 


Israel is not US and Turkey is not Afghanistan, Iraq, or Lebanon. Turkey is also part of NATO. It is not same as killing Lebanese. 

See Turkey is upping the ante. Going to send another ship with Naval escorts.

So genius, you should start working on your next troll post.

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## Solomon2

sparklingway said:


> Humanitarians are allowed to pass judgments over Israel's actions.


And what makes them "Humanitarians"? That they endorse the death of Israeli Jews by rocket weapons?



> There is more than just maintaining status quo in the region. There are sympathies that go deep into the echelons of power.


Too obscure.



> If the Jews returning to the promised land were oppressed and deserved promised land, so do the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank.


That leaves me scratching my head. Where did such ignorance of history begin? It must be poor schooling...the original U.N. plan was for one Jewish state and a twenty-third Arab one for the Palestinian Arabs. Jordan and Egypt occupied the designated Arab areas for the first twenty years of Israel's existence, and no one saw fit to champion "Palestine" then. If you had eyes to see - if you could travel there - you would see that Israel and the Palestinians are working to build a Palestinian state in the West Bank right now. Hamas, of course, sees its captive populace as weapons, not people; hence there is no chance of nation-building in Gaza.



> Israel's territorial expansions aren't justified.


Don't you think you have to have the ability to discuss facts and their context in detail before you pass judgment?






While the maps may be accurate their captions are not, as they measure different things. State lands and lands owned by Arabs changed color after independence, even if their actual owners remained unchanged. Note that pre-Independence lands were not in any way conquered, but purchased from prior owners. (That itself is a complicated story.) The second set of maps is also misleading, as the lands conquered from Egypt were returned to it decades ago when Egypt and Israel signed a treaty of peace.



> Moving on, Israel is a reality and every rational person accepts that. What is to be discussed is Israel's constant expansion -


From the lands conquered in its wars of defense, Israel has withdrawn from Sinai, Gaza, Egypt, and Syria. How can a "rational person" think of "Israel's constant expansion", then? It must be the difference between what things _are_, and what they are _called_. 



> Even if the message was entirely political (it was party political and partly humanitarian), does that mean that Israel has the right to launch an armed assault on a civilian ship flying the flag of a sovereign state in international waters and murder a dozen activists.


You are so sure that is what happened?



> There are yet to be any hearing over the last war that was launched on Gaza.


The Goldstone Report makes it clear that there is no chance such a hearing will be fair and impartial. The reason, obviously, is fear of Palestinian terrorism. I was in one ambassador's residence two weeks ago when he honored a Jewish activist. I pointed out that if he didn't live in a gated compound like some of the ambassadors from poorer countries, he might not have taken such a risk. 



> I hope Turkey takes Israel to ICJ this time. We'll see.


I'm not sure that the ICJ is the proper tribunal. Maybe a prize court would be better?



> As far as I see it, Pakistan has created an ideological enemy in Israel on its own without any justifications and only to create Islamist sentiments.


Rather than "create" I had supposed "respond to". There are millions more people in Arab states than in Israel, and poor Pakistan could never afford to alienate them just to take a truly moral stand, could it?



> Here the issue isn't Pakistan. You have dragged our problems into the debate to avoid talking about Israel's barbarianism.


That's FUNNY!



> "I'm not taking the BS of the people being armed -"


Denial. Will you believe them when, a few months or years from now, everything but the hate created from the incident is forgotten and the perpetrators boast to Arab newspapers of how they stabbed unsuspecting and un-armed Israelis? I would guess you will then, but it won't change your opinion of the incident.



> ...Had they been trying to send a message to the supposedly "attacking" activists, they would have fired a couple of warning shots or perhaps -


O.K., now you're letting your imagination substitute for events.



> Israel committed an utter, utter mistake.


How would you know if they didn't?



> if Sudanese military attacks and kills intl aid/political activists, will it get away with it? Clearly no.


They barred three activists from meeting the ICC about aid matters, so clearly Sudan can and does "get away with it".



> Israel is getting away with killing 19 people in international waters. This is an act of war.


No. This is a blood libel. 



> I'm baffled as to how one can justify Israel's attacks.



*oldier says passengers fired at forces, beat them severely using metal bats, knives. &#8216;We landed barehanded, and they lynched us -*
link (Videos included)


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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> Just in from CNN Turk a spokesperson said that if the Turkish civilians are not returned to Turkey diplomatic and military action will be taken.



Things are getting Tense i suppose , i think Turkey should call OIC meeting and get their support before taking such action.


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## TechLahore

Solomon2 said:


> I don't think Pakistanis are well-equipped to make such judgments.



How many UN resolutions has Pakistan violated? And how many US vetoes have saved us from international condemnation. Israel is the world record holder in both categories. Your bias is so damn obvious, I am not sure why I am continuing this conversation with you, save for others to read the exchange and come to their conclusions. Let it be recorded, Solomon2, that today you supported Israeli murderers killing peace activists in cold blood. And yet you have the gall to accuse us of supporting Palestinians on account of religion. You are the one who is so blinded by your common faith with the Israeli murderers that you cannot see beyond it. You obfuscate and attempt to divert attention by talking of purchase vs. theft, and bringing in the Ottomans in to the discussion as "Founders" of Israel when you know darn well I was referring to your (oops! You are an American, right. Not an Israeli?) first Prime Minister, the bomber terrorist Ben Gurion.



> That might be true for Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and a few other countries, but is it really true for Israel? American aid was not a major factor until after the Six-Day War. In 1973 when Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on the holiest day of the Jewish year and Israel responded by crossing the Suez Canal into Africa and closing to artillery range of Damascus, America bribed Israel to refrain from destroying its enemies by promising to maintain Israel as the strongest military power in the region.



You have former US mil personnel on this forum who will tell you otherwise. Today I was told the news of this brazen Israeli attack by none other than a former Col. of the USAF... that is how I found out about the news. Let me tell you that his views on Israel are not at all in line with yours. As are those of numerous servicemen who wear "USS Liberty - Never Forget" T-shirts publicly. 

Israel had been given a good and proper hiding in the Yom Kippur war and it was only the Nukes that America directly and indirectly gave to Israel - the famed "Samson option" - along with the rapid-fire replacement of shot down A4s and numerous other kinds of American mil support including sharing SR-71 and U2 footage that allowed Israel to not fall flat on its face. The surveillance footage given to the Israelis by the US is what even made it possible for Sharon to attack the SA-2 sites, while US resupply bought Israel more time. You are the one who needs an education on this topic.



> You aren't talking about the flotilla any more.



Even better. I am talking about the ultimate outcome of the sorry trajectory Israel has put itself on, in which this terrorism incident against the flotilla is just one point on the chart.



> Herzl was a journalist. Sir Herbert Samuel was a British cabinet minister. Abdul Hamid II and Mehmed VI were Ottoman Caliphs. The League of Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWI, and in 1947 the United Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWII, mostly democrats but some dictators and communists as well. All of these helped "found" Israel - indeed, I doubt Israel would exist without them. Do you consider all these people and entities "terrorists by any definition"?



I don't know about considering all these people terrorists, perhaps they were errorists. However, I do consider you to be pretty desparate to shift focus. I'll make it clear for you. I am talking about that *** rank terrorist Ben Gurion. 



> By "snatch" do you include "purchase"? The issue is more complicated than that. If you want all "snatched" lands returned to the victimized peoples, do you support returning lands taken from the Jews as well? I don't hear anybody offering to give the Jews Medina or a quarter of Baghdad in exchange for Tel Aviv - and the Israelis wouldn't want it, either.



Please stop deluding yourself and wasting other people's time. Here is what Ben Gurion HIMSELF said about the occupation of Palestine. These are HIS words. Now refute them, or accept that you are a sorry propagandist and apologist for terror.

In 1956, Ben-Gurion stated: "*Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country* ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."



> The Jews were promised a homeland in Palestine as part of the great de-Imperialization movement after WWI. Many nationalities, which



What the hell did Palestine have to do with WWI or WWII? The Jews claim God promised them Canaan. Well, there were people living in Cannan before the jews entered. So the jews and Zionists cannot lay the primal claim. Then they say it was given to us as a covenant. Ok. But they BROKE that covenant. They went around for 40 years in the desert, criticising manna from the heavens, worshipping the false god in the form of the golden calf, and when God finally brought them to Cannan, they said complained again that God hadn't magically evicted the inhabitants for them. It was only their repeated ungratefulness and violation of the covenant that caused Moses to refuse to lead them into the land. And then once they went in and won the land on the back of brave warriors and prophets like David, what did they do then? They formed two kingdoms and started fighting against each other. If they had an original covenant, they also violated it. If they were given the land, they also abused the privilege and were scattered across the earth. So laying a religously motivated claim also has no merit.

Finally, laying a claim on moral grounds is complete bull$hit. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Nazi progroms, as Ben Gurion himself acknowledges in the quote above. 

So there is no basis for this nonsensical solution of forcing an Israel down the throats of people who were already living on the land for hundreds, thousands of years. But now that there is an Israel, let's accept the reality for the sake of peace. However, this requires Israel to be humble and reasonable and to arrive at a solution which includes a two-state solution and an acknowledgement of the wrongs that have been committed against the Palestinians. However, what we have instead is a state hell bent on making everyone and their brother its enemy. And so it is. Keep killing innocent people on aid convoys and keep earning everyone's hate, until it all boils over and washes Israel away. 



> However, the Jews kicked out by most of the Arab countries, where were they supposed to go? When the world is prepared to discuss not just how small Israel should be but how big Israel should be, then I think there will be a greater chance for peace.



Very interesting. Did the Zionists start assaulting Palestinians first, or the did the Arab states kick out the jews first? Please get your facts straight. I would also advise you to read, "Were they good for the jews", authored by a co-religionist of yours that clearly illustrates that the jews have overwhelmingly enjoyed better treatment in muslim lands throughout history as compared to christian lands. And suddenly you say Arab states kicked out jews... there must have been a reason for this sudden reversal, no? That reason was Zionist terror.



> Many of these still support the existence of Israel. This is an exercise in freedom of debate that Pakistanis, it seems, do not care to experience.



Aw pipe down on this freedom of debate crap now. You made a big drama here about the FB ban and all this other nonsense about "ooo I'm so concerned Pakistanis don't debate things freely". Stuff it. We have been here debating things freely all the while you were enjoying your vacation from PDF, and we were also pretty active on FB which was banned in name and clearly not in spirit. I said at the time that this was only going to be a temporary measure to calm people down, not stifle debate, and that's exactly what it was. This is how free the debate in Israel is:






For the record, this journalist was treated better in Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, Afghanistan and FATA than he was in Israel. Your proselytizing and chastising on freedom of debate is complete bull$hit because I don't know of a freer press today than the press in Pakistan. We abuse every leader in power daily. We publish 50 scandals and accusations that would be libel in other countries, against the sitting President, on a daily basis. I will get arrested in the US for things that I can say in Pakistan... so just put a lid on the holier than thou freedom of press nonsense.




> I urge you to study world history more fully to understand how laughable your words are. That an intelligent person like you stands by them without entertaining the possibility of error - is there a better indication of how demented Pakistan has become?



If Pakistan has become demented for pointing out the truth which you can't bear, clearly, then I wish madness upon all of humanity. You, Solomon2, are a propaganda mouthpiece. I mean really. You are completely unaccepting of any cricisim of Israel. Most of us here will look at things even about our own country from various angles and you'll find us debating the good and the bad. There is a wide spectrum of opinion here. Yet, you, who claim to be an American, merely on account of your faith, cannot find a single fault with Israel. That is what is demented. Nay, tragic and bull$hitesque in everyway. Get off your pulpit, you have been fired as a second rate evangelist on account of your lack of imagination and inability to take off the blue blinders.



> Are you interested in justice or enforcing your own sense of righteousness?



Justice is good enough for me. Netanyahu would be tried as a war criminal, as would Sharon, and they would face life in prison. That would be fine by me. 



> Wow, you've really bought "the narrative", as Arabs describe it, hook, line, and sinker.



Yes, it is mere "narrative". Tell me something. How many Zionists were on Palestinian land in 1880? How many Palestinians? How many Israelis have been killed - total - in all acts of violence involving the Arabs? How many Arabs and Palestinians have been killed? How many Israelis live in refugee camps on their own land? How many Palestinians do? One can go on and on merely focused on the FACTS and show that your nonsensical allegation as made above is not worth the few bytes it took to transmit it through the interweb. The Arabs and Palestinians have suffered in EVERY way, and the Zionists have benefitted in EVERY way, and all these things are acknowledged in resolutions by the UN and YET you call this an "Arab narrative". Shame.



> How can blood feuds end? If one party wants peace and the other doesn't, is that sufficient?



If one party is idiotic enough not to realize that it is engaged in wrongful murder solely on the back of a powerful friend, and that the powerful friend cannot be around forever, then yes, perhaps the way this ends is that the wronged communities eventually crush the crazed murderer. Right before this is about to happen, I reckon the bully will want peace, but then it will too late. Like I said earlier, disregard international law today because you can, but remember that when these murders are avenged - perhaps 50, perhaps 100 years hence - international law may not figure in your favour at that time.



> No, TL. This incident ranks as a depraved plot, one certainly not of Israel's making. (Israel didn't make the flotilla set sail, nor compel its passengers to attack the boarding party with clubs and knives.)



The blockade of Palestine is illegal in of itself. The UN has asked Israel to remove this blockage. The murderous Israeli soldiers had no right to board those ships. The entire effort on the part of Israel is illegal and has no standing by any measure of morality or international law. RT reports have now shown multiple sources that make clear that the boarding happened in international waters. This is a brazen act of piracy and murder. Israel is 100% responsible.



> Who is more likely to have a better perception of such matters, you or I? It frightens you even to approach the line of thinking that what Israel does is usually right and just, doesn't it?



Nothing about Israel frightens me, let me tell you that. I actually feel a great deal of pity for many of the innocent Israelis that now find themselves in a deep, deep hole the Zionists have dug for them. No power on earth, ever in history, has remained dominant for ever. No small group of people has wronged another far larger group of people without paying the price eventually. Israel might have American aid and borrowed American equipment, but it does not have the power to change the laws of nature, or the trajectory of history. I know for damn sure that Israel as it exists today is going to be undone. If it happens in 50 years, perhaps I will get to see that day. But even if it happens afterward, I know as surely as the Sun will rise tomorrow, that this day will come. And in terms of human history, it will come sooner rather than later. Demographics eventually win.



> Um, no you're not. East Pakistan broke away forty years ago. Rump Pakistan has been slowly fracturing since. The P.A.'s efforts of the past year may have reversed that, but as Nadeem Farooq Paracha put it, "Anything to do with Allah, or the prophet, and everyone keeps quiet. That's the problem with our country."



Are you on something? What the hell does 1971 have to do with the Prophet? I am quite sure that you are suffering from palpitations or some other form of temporary (hopefully) incoherence because you make no damn sense at all. Pakistan has been slowly fracturing? And you're concerned about Pakistan's views on the Prophet, but I don't see you cricitizing these sw1nes for persecuting Christians? There are hundreds more of these videos, made by Christian pilgrims visiting Israel. How many do you want to see? Or now, let me put it in your words, how many do you have the "courage" to see and condemn and then act to remedy? 






Which territory has West Pakistan lost since 1947? Please don't confuse your dreams and hopes with reality. Let us, you and I, place a wager on whether or not Pakistan fractures. The challenge in placing such a bet virtually when neither you nor I know each other notwithstanding, I think the intellectual satisfaction alone would suffice for me at least. 



> You're not out of the woods yet. And I think re-considering Pakistan's views towards Israel, Jews,



Our views concerning jews are just fine, thank you. You saw even someone like Ahmedinijad extend a generous and warm welcome to jews in Iran during a recent conference held there. We are, hopefully even in your eyes, not Ahemedinijad. Our issue, as I said before, is with Israel. And we are not the only ones who have this issue. Essentially everyone in the world other than the USG has the same issue. And even within the US, opinion is sharply divided, and the consensus is that Zionist groups, through pressure tactics, use of money, bribes, threats and other insidious means, exercise a level of unnatural control on the US Government. Before you bring in the "Arab narrative" shtick here, please do yourself a favour and look up all the Christian, American, White Cacucasian journalists, writers and researchers who say this. There have been books written about this, for the love of God!



> In my opinion, it is a similar legacy Pakistan must face and acknowledge if it is to move forward, rather than succumb to a barbaric and destructive mentality.



You know what, please seek counseling. If you are going to compare Germany - a country that perpetrated the holocaust - with Pakistan, then you are out in looney land. Your comparison is offensive and repulsive. Others have compared the Nazi holocaust perpetrated against the Jews with the Israeli holocaust against the Palestinians. But then again, to each his own.

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## Kompromat

*Ship clash leaves Israel in diplomatic hot water ,Israel could pay a heavy price*






Foreign anger at the boarding of the pro-Palestinian flotilla was loud even among Israel's allies and may drown out its argument that such action was needed to keep Gaza's Hamas rulers isolated and peacemaking efforts afloat.

Islamist Hamas's rival for Palestinian loyalties, secular president Mahmoud Abbas, was quick to condemn the naval attack as a "massacre" -- an ill omen for the U.S.-mediated negotiations with Israel on which he embarked three weeks ago.

President Barack Obama will have to balance relations with Turkey and other Muslim allies of the United States against Washington's ties with Israel.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, on a visit to Canada when the Israeli raid took place, canceled a planned White House meeting with Obama on Tuesday and would leave later on Monday for home, Israeli officials said.

The relationship between the two leaders has already been strained by Israel's settlement policy in the West Bank -- where Palestinians also seek statehood -- and Obama has urged Netanyahu to ease access to Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

Netanyahu's White House invitation was widely seen in Israel as an attempt by Obama to mend fences -- and shore up U.S. Jewish support for Democratic candidates in a November mid-term election -- after a frosty Oval office meeting in March.

But Oussama Safa of the Lebanese Center for Policy Studies predicted Obama might "ante up the pressure against the Israelis" to accommodate Palestinian demands -- though the Netanyahu government has said the Gaza blockade will remain.

Another delay in negotiations that have been stop-start for almost two decades would hold little real impact. Abbas, with his truncated West Bank mandate, is too beholden to Israel and the United States to close the door on rapprochement.

But the possibility of a fallout with Turkey, whose flag was flown on the flotilla and which recalled its Tel Aviv envoy in protest at the naval raid, could deepen Israel's own isolation even as it tries to present Iran as the main regional threat.

FOR HAMAS, HEROES

Turkey, a non-permanent member of the U.N. Security Council, said it would seek a resolution against Israel -- a poke in the eye for Israel and the United States, which would prefer to see the Council sanction Iran for its nuclear programme.

Rising Iranian power has stirred concern among many Arabs, to Israel's advantage. But the Palestinian crisis makes such sympathies fickle, as Israeli Trade Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer discovered while on a official visit to Qatar.

"I see all the looks that I'm getting," Ben-Eliezer told Israel's Army Radio by telephone.

Hamas, which has largely fallen from world headlines since its war with Israel some 18 months ago, welcomed what it described as a win-win situation from the violence at sea.

Hamas government head Ismail Haniyeh said of the activists: "You were heroes, whether you reached (Gaza) or not."

Israel insisted its commandos opened fire when they were attacked by gun- and knife-wielding activists aboard one of the flotilla's six vessels. At least seven marines were wounded.

But, as with its crackdowns against a Palestinian uprising in the early years of the past decade, Israel will face tough questions abroad about the wisdom of using military force for what are essentially policing missions -- especially when the nationalities of the dead are made public.

Nahman Shai, a former Israeli military spokesman turned opposition lawmaker, likened the confrontation to the police killing of a dozen Arab citizens of Israel who demonstrated in solidarity with the Palestinians in late 2000.

"The difference is that this time foreigners are involved, which means a much wider impact," Shai told Israel Radio.

(Additional reportin

Ship clash leaves Israel in diplomatic hot water | Reuters


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## Solomon2

Meengla said:


> Jews being kicked out by 'most Arab countries'? Why have they not been kicked out of Turkey then -


Turks aren't Arabs.



> And what is 'most' Arab countries?


Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, the Arabian Peninsula, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon. That's more than half by count, and far more than that by weighted population. (Did I leave some countries out?) Essentially every country but Morocco, Qatar, and Tunisia gave most of its Jews the boot. Some of Syria's remain but that, in my opinion, is more because Alawite-run Syria is a mini-Empire of its own and values the Jews as some sort of balance to the others.


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## Solomon2

Black Blood said:


> Solomon dont run away from the topic.


Sorry BB, you know if I digress too much from the thread topic I would be violating the rules, and there's already been one complaint.


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## Spitfighter

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> israel is a small piece of land.....they have every right to "blockade of gazaa" why the hell these guys going from sea.....they wanted to create an issue ...i think israel did it right.....perhaps one slap on the face wud prevent future course of actions.
> 
> small countries in geography cannot take too much of risk like the indians...they *allow* fckuing trrorist to enter their parliament, hotels....everywhere...israel does not have a chance it does not have 1 billion population...it will do anything to protects its people....that was the right thing to do...protecting land is more important so what if some 100 insane people who were politically instigated going thru such route..they got the right treatment.....



We don't really allow them, our security forces are simply too incompetent to stop 'em.


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## Meengla

Another great post by @TechLahore!
I think our guest @Solomon is really suffering from some case of paranoia:

Again,
Echoes of Raid on 'Exodus' Ship in 1947 - Readers' Comments - NYTimes.com

is one of the most pro-Israel major news papers in America where most Comments are from ordinary Americans. I guess they too hold some kind of 'libel' against Jews?

Solomon: You perhaps need to go 'back to drawing board' and come up with better ideas. If I have my way--and I request the Mods--no one should censure you. Just breathe some fresh air. This is not a Taliban forum--we HATE the mindset of the Talibans, if you can believe that. And we certainly do not hate the Jews, contrary to your simplistic worldview and paranoia.


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## Novice09

If images speaks for 1000 words; grab the message


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## Nima

solomon save your breath. We all know what you Americans think, no need to waste people's time. I much rather hear disagreements from Europeans than Americans. You guys are like dead zombies programed to work for you Jewish masters. Nobody in Asia, except American colonies (Japan, Korea and Philippines) and some Indians, is going to look at this any diff than it's. Israel is a terrorist state and its actions are further proof. 
I hate arabs with a passion but I've never been able to defend the Israelis. If a racist arab hater like me can't do it then be sure that there is smtg very wrong w/ Israel.

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## ejaz007

sparklingway said:


> My friends' two cents:-
> 
> I heard there was a president of a superpower and he had got a Peace Nobel prize too. Haven't seen him around.



He got peace prize for continuing the war not ending it. You wont see him till Israel has achieved its target. Then he will come in all guns firing and arrange a truce. In the end he is the one getting all the praise and Israel is the one achieving his objective. Win win situation for both. Only ones suffering are the Palestinians.

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------

*Diplomatic efforts for recovery of Pakistanis launched *
*
* Qureshi phones Holbrooke, seeks US help to recover Pakistanis 
* Malik asks Interpol chief about Talat Hussains whereabouts *

LAHORE/ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Monday asked for the US governments immediate intervention in the matter regarding the recovery of Pakistani nationals who were aboard Freedom Flotilla. 

Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi told reporters that he had telephoned US special representative Richard Holbrooke on the issue of recovery of Talat Hussain, executive director of a private TV channel.

Pakistans ambassadors to Jordan, Oman, Lebanon and the European Union have been asked to collect information about the whereabouts of the missing Pakistanis, he said. 

The foreign minister said an emergency meeting of the OIC should be called to slam the deadly Israeli raid that killed 19 pro-Palestinian peace activists. 

I will request the OIC to convene an emergency meeting as the Arab League has also summoned its meeting in this regard, the foreign minister added. 

Freedom Fotilla was attacked when it was sailing towards its destination within international boundaries and in these circumstances Israel openly committed violation of international laws, he added. 

He said Pakistans stance on the Palestine issue was unchanged and the country still owned it but at present the first priority of the government would be the safe recovery of senior journalist Talat Hussain and his associates. 

Qureshi condoled the deaths, saying the incident was highly deplorable, which should be condemned at every level.

Pakistan Ambassador to the US Husain Haqqani spoke to senior US officials and conveyed to them Pakistans request for help in tracing the whereabouts and status of the Pakistanis on board the aid flotilla. 

Islamabad has strongly condemned the attack on the humanitarian mission and it is seriously concerned over the well-being and whereabouts of Pakistani citizens and media personnel on board, he said. Interior Minister Rehman Malik called upon Interpol to help recover TV anchor Talat Hussain and the other Pakistanis aboard Gaza aid ships.

The interior minister said he had contacted Interpol chief Ronald Noble and asked for information about whereabouts of Talat and associates. I have inquired about the efforts being made for the recovery of pro-Palestinian activists, he said. Malik said he had directed the FIA to remain in contact with Interpol in this regard. daily times monitor/ tahir rashid/agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## Kompromat

*Global outcry follows Israel's raid on aid ships*

(AFP)  9 hours ago

ANKARA  Israel faced a wave of global outrage over the storming of Gaza-bound aid ships Monday, as Turkey froze military ties, Muslim leaders demanded UN action and protests erupted in many countries.

UN chief Ban Ki-moon said he was "shocked" by the naval assault on a convoy carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists through international waters, while capitals summoned Israel's ambassadors.

As tens of thousands of people protested across the world, Ban called on Israel to "urgently" explain itself over the raid reported to have killed up to nine people, many of them Turks.

The UN Security Council went into an emergency session at which Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu charged that Israel had "lost all legitimacy."

"It is murder committed by a state. It has no justification whatsoever," he said.

Even the United States, Israel's traditional ally, hinted that the blockade should at least be eased.

Turkey, the Jewish state's chief regional partner, scrapped joint war games with Israel and recalled its ambassador, while Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan described the raid as "inhuman state terror".

Tens of thousands of Turks took to the streets, some shouting "Damn Israel!" and demanding "A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye, revenge, revenge!"

Besides a "strong condemnation", the blockade on Gaza should be lifted and the interrupted aid cargo delivered, said Yahya Mahmassani, representing the Arab group at the UN talks.

Washington, Israel's closest ally, expressed deep regret over the deaths while US President Barack Obama told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu it was important to find out "all the facts" as soon as possible.

NATO called emergency talks for Tuesday and said it was "deeply concerned about the loss of life", while ambassadors from the 27 EU countries condemned Israel's use of violence, demanding "an immediate, full and impartial enquiry."

Muslim leaders united in condemning what Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas called a "massacre" and Arab League chief Amr Mussa said was a "crime." 

The Islamist movement Hamas which rules Gaza urged world Muslims to "rise up" in protest, as Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denounced the raid as "inhuman Zionist regime action." 

Lebanon's Prime Minister Saad Hariri said the raid was "dangerous and crazy", while Palestinian refugees and activists demonstrated across the country, chanting slogans like "Give us weapons and send us on to Gaza."

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak condemned Israel's "use of excessive and unjustified force", and his counterpart in Cyprus, Demetris Christofias, said the raid "constitutes a criminal act."

Jordan, the only Arab country other than Egypt to have a peace treaty with Israel, handed Israel a protest note.

The Vatican voiced "deep sadness and concern" and Middle East peace envoy Tony Blair expressed his "deep regret and shock."

Greece, which had dozens of nationals in the convoy pulled out of joint military exercises with Israel.

The UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Richard Falk, called for a worldwide boycott and sanctions against Israel for its "murderous behaviour."

The pan-Islamic Organisation of the Islamic Conference called on Israel to release all the boats and arrested activists and take action against those responsible for the raid.

Pakistan "strongly condemned" the attack and Kuwait's parliament speaker said it was a "heinous Israeli crime."

And Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, said "there was no basis" for Israel's assault.

Catherine Ashton, the European Union's foreign policy chief, also condemned the violence saying in a statement that it had "produced a high number of victims among the members of the flotilla".

She called for a full, impartial inquiry.

Several European countries summoned their Israeli ambassadors while Spain -- -- the current European Union president -- slammed the operation as "unacceptable".

France's President Nicolas Sarkozy accused Israel of a "disproportionate use of force" while German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she had telephoned the leaders of both Israel and Turkey to express her "deep concern".

British Prime Minister David Cameron described Israel's raid of a Gaza-bound aid flotilla as "unacceptable" and urged the Jewish state to "respond constructively" to criticism of its actions.

Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini condemned a "crude violation" of international law.

Copyright © 2010 AFP. All rights reserved


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## Kompromat

Solomon2 said:


> Sorry BB, you know if I digress too much from the thread topic I would be violating the rules, and there's already been one complaint.



Dont be sorry solomon , it would have been nice if you didn't disgraced the Blood of the Innocent People.


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## Kompromat

Jigs was right !


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## Meengla

Solomon2 said:


> *Turks aren't Arabs*.
> 
> Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, the Arabian Peninsula, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon. That's more than half by count, and far more than that by weighted population. (Did I leave some countries out?) Essentially every country but Morocco, Qatar, and Tunisia gave most of its Jews the boot. Some of Syria's remain but that, in my opinion, is more because Alawite-run Syria is a mini-Empire of its own and values the Jews as some sort of balance to the others.



I had intentionally left Iranians--who still host 30,000+ Jews in Iran in peace-- out in my post. I had also intentionally left out the fact as to why the Arabs would oppose the Jews coming back--basically riding on the tanks to the Middle East around the 2nd World War; may be you never care to look into the laws of Cause n Effect? Yeah, simpler world is better. You are the victim. Forever. And so you can victimize others forever.

You need to explain what you are trying to say: Is is the Muslim who hate the Jews? Or is it Iran--which wants to 'wipe you off the face of the world'? Or is it Arabs? What about the Turks now? 

I think you are smart enough to know that what kind of tragedy was done to the Jews was done by Christinian EUROPEANS around the 2nd World War and that for you to come waltzing into the Middle East, expecting Arabs/Palestinians to just accommodate you without resistance based on your thousands of years of claims was...a bit too naive.

But deep down you should know that the Europeans ethnically-cleansed you and dumped you in the Middle East to 'solve' their problem? Deep down you should know that you belong in the Middle East and not 'the West'? Deep down you show know that the old game of labelling everyone as 'anti-Semite' is not going to work anymore? Deep down you SHOULD know that colonialism was...so 19th century and will not work in the Information Age.

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## EyelessInGaza

I'm leaving aside the historical background, the decades of mutual antagonism and the deep emotion that this conflict invariably attaches - because we've all heard that debate many times over - to focus on the actual incident. 

IMHO, these are the emerging 'facts'* (facts which could change as the situation is evolving):

*1.* That the people who were running the flotilla planned to challenge Israel's blockade, or in other words challenge it's 'authority' (justified or otherwise, I'm not interested in getting into an argument over this issue on this thread).

*2.* That, in doing so, they knew the risk they were taking.

*3.* That the flotilla appears to be comprised of, or backed by, a quite diverse set of peoples from across the world. This does not seem to be a regional initiative only.

*4.* That "Five of the six ships were seized without the use of force" and that resistance came from the "Turkish-flagged MV Mavi Marmara". 

*5.* That Israel's objective in seizing the ships was to submit the cargo to checks before it being allowed to be transported to Gaza.

*6.*That the authorities on the Turkish ship refused to be boarded.

*7.*That soon after there was violence on the ship.

*9.* That 9 or more people on the ship may have been killed, most of them Turks. That 10 Israeli soldiers were wounded.

*10.* That - from the videos - there seems to be some sort of a melee on the ship but it is unclear what is happening; 

*11.* I see people getting assaulted, but I do not see the kind of attack (guns, grenades etc) that should trigger a retaliation that results in more than 9 people getting killed.

*12.* That this incident happened in international waters.

*My interim conclusion is that Israel has overreacted and will find it hard to get much sympathy, if the above facts hold true. *

*As an aside, Pakistani and Indian forummers may find some parallels in our mutual history before 1947. Public rallies, emotional crowds, something gets out of hand, the British admin overreacts and you have a terrible incident.*


*: I'm using wiki as a source. I know it's wiki, so you could take the above 'facts' with a pinch of salt. But I'll go with it for now.

Gaza flotilla clash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Jigs

Countries which criticized the Israeli raid on the flotilla.


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## Kompromat

I wonder why Australia is quiet , one of their men got shot !


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## Comet

Jigs said:


> Countries which criticized the Israeli raid on the flotilla.



You sure?

Afghanistan and Bangladesh didn't criticize?


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## fawwaxs

*flotilla attack: world unites in condemnation of Israel's actions*



Israel's calculated gamble in sending commandos to raid the Mediterranean flotilla looked likely last night to exact a high price, leaving it increasingly isolated internationally and diplomatically and losing the vital public relations war in the Middle East.

The first and biggest casualty of what appeared to many as a rash act of night time derring-do was Israel's relationship with what used to be its key strategic, regional and Muslim ally, Turkey.

Anger erupted on the streets of Istanbul and Ankara, with Israeli flags burned and the Netanyahu government advising Israelis to stay away from Turkey. Thousands took to the streets and marched on the Israeli consulate.

Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, described the Israeli raid as "an act of inhumane state terrorism", while the foreign ministry spoke of "an act of piracy" and of "irreparable damage" to relations between Ankara and Tel Aviv.

Three of the six ships flew the Turkish flag, the convoy was organised by a Turkish charity, and several hundred of those on board the ships were Turks. "We had a very good relationship with Israel, but we have had all kind of difficulties in the past," said a senior diplomat in Ankara, Selim Yenel. "This tops them all."

Protesters scaled the high fences protecting the Israeli consulate in Istanbul, only to be repelled by security forces.

"I cried all night. What Israel did was murder and terrorism," said Mehmet Tas, a computer software student. "Turkey and Europe should unite and attack Israel."

The fury on the streets was mirrored by high-level rage. Ankara recalled its ambassador from Israel. Erdogan rushed home from a trip to Latin America to deal with the fallout. Observers predicted a possible breach in diplomatic relations.

"Israel has targeted innocent civilians," said the foreign ministry in Ankara. "It has shown yet again that it does not care about human lives or peace initiatives."

Noting that the dawn raid occurred in international waters, Ankara hinted at demanding legal redress.

The Turks convened an emergency meeting of generals and security ministers and called off military exercises with Israel, as did Greece.

The United Nations security council was expected to meet last night in New York over the incident.

"I heard the ships were in international water. That is very bad," said Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general.

The Obama administration, while regretting the death toll, reserved judgment on apportioning blame.

"The United States is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy," said White House spokesman William Burton.

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, cancelled plans to visit Obama at the White House today.

Amid a flurry of diplomatic activity, Israeli ambassadors were summoned in Stockholm, Madrid, and Athens, while Spain, holding the six-month rotating presidency of the European Union, called a session of the EU's political and security committee.

Foreign governments deplored the loss of life and voiced outrage at the Israeli conduct. But amid a propaganda war between the Israeli government press machine and pro-Palestinian lobbies over who started the fight and whether any of the activists on board were armed, they were also wary of going further than verbal condemnation.

The common response in Europe was to condemn what was seen as Israel's disproportionate use of force. Even Germany, generally reluctant to criticize Israel because of the Holocaust, voiced horror at what Palestinian leaders dubbed a massacre.

"The German government is shocked by events in the international waters by Gaza," said a German government spokesman, adding that Israeli actions should observe the fundamental principle of proportionality. "A first glance suggests this basic principle was not adhered to."

Catherine Ashton, the EU's foreign and security policy chief, said: "I have spoken to Israel's foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman to express our deepest concern about the tragedy that has happened. I said there should be an immediate inquiry by Israel into the circumstances."

Her demand for an Israeli inquiry was echoed by European governments, but at odds with several other calls for an independent international investigation.

Guido Westerwelle, the German foreign minister, told Liberman that any investigation should be "comprehensive, transparent, and neutral".

While Israel generally prevents foreign politicians entering the Gaza Strip, Ashton was allowed in during her first trip to the Middle East in March. She called yesterday for a partial lifting of the blockade maintained by Israel and Egypt.

"I have also taken the opportunity to point out the importance of opening the crossings for humanitarian aid to go through, to ensure that ordinary people have a better existence than that which I saw."

William Hague, the foreign secretary, said that the three-year Israeli siege of Gaza should be relaxed. "I call on the government of Israel to open the crossings to allow unfettered access for aid to Gaza, and address the serious concerns about the deterioration in the humanitarian and economic situation and about the effect on a generation of young Palestinians."

The Russian government meanwhile expressed its deep anxiety over the incident. It described the assault by Israeli commandos as a gross violation of international law and called for a thorough investigation.

"Use of weapons against civilians and detaining ships in the open sea without any legal reason constitute obvious and gross violations of generally accepted legal standards," Russia's foreign ministry said in a statement. It called for the "earliest possible lifting of the Israeli blockade of Gaza".

Tony Blair, envoy in the Middle East for the UN, US, EU, and Russia quartet, said: "We need a different and better way of helping the people of Gaza and avoiding the hardship and tragedy that is inherent in the present situation."

All the evidence suggests that Israel is calculating that it can brazen out the chorus of criticism and limit the substantive damage to its relations with Turkey.


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## EyelessInGaza

Black Blood said:


> I wonder why Australia is quiet , one of their men got shot !



Fury follows Israel's deadly attack on aid flotilla


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## fawwaxs

Obama regrets casualties in Israeli raid on Gaza aid flotilla 

U.S. President Barack Obama on Monday talked with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over phone, expressing "deep regret" over casualties in Israeli raid on Gaza aid.

"He said he understood the Prime Minister's decision to return immediately to Israel to deal with today's events. They agreed to reschedule their meeting at the first opportunity," a White House statement said.

"The President expressed deep regret at the loss of life in today's incident, and concern for the wounded, many of whom are being treated in Israeli hospitals," the statement said.

"The President also expressed the importance of learning all the facts and circumstances around this morning's tragic events as soon as possible," the statement added.

Israeli forces on Monday attacked the aid ships when trying to stop the flotilla from reaching Gaza, killing up to 20 and wounding more than 30 others.

Netanyahu has decided to cut short his trip to Canada and the United States and fly back to Israel to deal with the aftermath of the incident.

---------- Post added at 04:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 AM ----------

Obama regrets casualties in Israeli raid on Gaza aid flotilla 

U.S. President Barack Obama on Monday talked with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over phone, expressing "deep regret" over casualties in Israeli raid on Gaza aid.

"He said he understood the Prime Minister's decision to return immediately to Israel to deal with today's events. They agreed to reschedule their meeting at the first opportunity," a White House statement said.

"The President expressed deep regret at the loss of life in today's incident, and concern for the wounded, many of whom are being treated in Israeli hospitals," the statement said.

"The President also expressed the importance of learning all the facts and circumstances around this morning's tragic events as soon as possible," the statement added.

Israeli forces on Monday attacked the aid ships when trying to stop the flotilla from reaching Gaza, killing up to 20 and wounding more than 30 others.

Netanyahu has decided to cut short his trip to Canada and the United States and fly back to Israel to deal with the aftermath of the incident.


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## Jigs

umairp said:


> You sure?
> 
> Afghanistan and Bangladesh didn't criticize?



They might have not released a statement on the matter. I am sure they have though.


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## zavis2003

israel is doing good for its elimination from world map

ISRAEL keep it up one day you wont be at world map


world is going to be against israel ths way 

really israel make things easy for us to project that israel is a terrorrist coountry


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## fawwaxs

Reactions to Israel's Raid on the Flotilla for Gaza

Israel attacked a flotilla of six ships that tried to break its blockade of Gaza. The Israelis killed 10 activists on those ships. The ships were carrying 700 people and 10,000 tons of supplies, including electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes, and water purifiers.

The attack has set off a diplomatic storm. Click here for a video report from Reuters.

After the attack, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu cancelled plans for a meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon today expressed his shock at the deadly raid on boats loaded with relief supplies headed for Gaza, calling on Israel to fully explain its actions. According to media reports, early this morning in international waters, Israeli forces raided the six-ship aid convoy, also carrying hundreds of activists, with more than ten people having been killed. I condemn this violence, Mr. Ban said from Kampala, Uganda, where he presided over the first review conference of the International Criminal Court. It is vital that there is a full investigation to determine exactly how this bloodshed took place, he said. I believe Israel must urgently provide a full explanation.

The Security Council is scheduled to meet this afternoon in an emergency session to discuss the incident. 

The League of Arab States may also hold an emergency meeting tomorrow. Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa is reported to have said that "Israel's attack indicates that Israel is not ready for peace. Israel attacked the liberty fleet because it feels it is above the law."
Egypt summoned the Israeli ambassador. The Israeli Academic Center in Cairo, which aids to build ties in Egypt, has canceled all lectures for the coming week.

The Lebanese prime minister Saad al-Hariri called Israel's attack a "crazy step" that risked inflaming conflict in the region.

Turkey, an Israeli ally in the region, has called off three joint military exercises with Israel. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has cut short an official visit to Latin America. Turkey summoned Israel's ambassador and said it may recall its own ambassador. Israeli nationals have been advised to avoid travel to Turkey and to keep a low profile if they are already in the country. Demonstrators are reportedly assembling in front of the the residence of Israel's ambassador to Turkey.

The United Nations has repeatedly spoken out against the closure of Gaza and raised concern over the insufficient flow of material into the area to meet basic needs and spur reconstruction. Mr. Ban cautioned in a recent meeting that the closure creates unacceptable suffering, hurts forces of moderation and empowers extremists.

Also speaking out against today's raid was UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, who emphasized that nothing can justify the appalling outcome of this operation. She called for a probe into the incident and underscored the need for accountability. I unequivocally condemn what appears to be disproportionate use of force, resulting in the killing and wounding of so many people attempting to bring much-needed aid to the people of Gaza, who have now been enduring a blockade for more than three years, Ms. Pillay said. She called on the Israeli Government to heed the almost unanimous international view that the continued blockade of Gaza is both inhumane and illegal. The blockade, the High Commissioner pointed out, lies at the heart of so many of the problems plaguing the Israel-Palestine situation, as does the impression that the Israeli Government treats international law with perpetual disdain. Without the blockade, she noted, there would be no need for flotillas like this.

Richard Falk, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, said that Israel is guilty of shocking behavior by using deadly weapons against unarmed civilians on ships that were situated in the high seas where freedom of navigation exists, according to the law of the seas. He echoed the calls by the Secretary-General and the High Commissioner for an investigation into today's incident, stressing that it is essential that those Israelis responsible for this lawless and murderous behavior, including political leaders who issued the orders, be held criminally accountable for their wrongful acts. Mr. Falk characterized the blockade of Gaza as a massive form of collective punishment that is tantamount to a crime against humanity. Unless prompt and decisive action is taken to challenge the Israeli approach to Gaza all of us will be complicit in criminal policies that are challenging the survival of an entire beleaguered community, he said.

The French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner was reported to have said that the violence could not be justified and that he was "profoundly shocked by the tragic consequences of the Israeli military operation against the Peace Flotilla for Gaza."

Israel denies that it has created a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and says that it allows sufficient food and medicine into the territory. Click here for more statements from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

---------- Post added at 05:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 AM ----------

Reactions to Israel's Raid on the Flotilla for Gaza

Israel attacked a flotilla of six ships that tried to break its blockade of Gaza. The Israelis killed 10 activists on those ships. The ships were carrying 700 people and 10,000 tons of supplies, including electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes, and water purifiers.

The attack has set off a diplomatic storm. Click here for a video report from Reuters.

After the attack, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu cancelled plans for a meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon today expressed his shock at the deadly raid on boats loaded with relief supplies headed for Gaza, calling on Israel to fully explain its actions. According to media reports, early this morning in international waters, Israeli forces raided the six-ship aid convoy, also carrying hundreds of activists, with more than ten people having been killed. &#8220;I condemn this violence,&#8221; Mr. Ban said from Kampala, Uganda, where he presided over the first review conference of the International Criminal Court. &#8220;It is vital that there is a full investigation to determine exactly how this bloodshed took place,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I believe Israel must urgently provide a full explanation.&#8221;

The Security Council is scheduled to meet this afternoon in an emergency session to discuss the incident. 

The League of Arab States may also hold an emergency meeting tomorrow. Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa is reported to have said that "Israel's attack indicates that Israel is not ready for peace. Israel attacked the liberty fleet because it feels it is above the law."
Egypt summoned the Israeli ambassador. The Israeli Academic Center in Cairo, which aids to build ties in Egypt, has canceled all lectures for the coming week.

The Lebanese prime minister Saad al-Hariri called Israel's attack a "crazy step" that risked inflaming conflict in the region.

Turkey, an Israeli ally in the region, has called off three joint military exercises with Israel. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has cut short an official visit to Latin America. Turkey summoned Israel's ambassador and said it may recall its own ambassador. Israeli nationals have been advised to avoid travel to Turkey and to keep a low profile if they are already in the country. Demonstrators are reportedly assembling in front of the the residence of Israel's ambassador to Turkey.

The United Nations has repeatedly spoken out against the closure of Gaza and raised concern over the insufficient flow of material into the area to meet basic needs and spur reconstruction. Mr. Ban cautioned in a recent meeting that the closure &#8220;creates unacceptable suffering, hurts forces of moderation and empowers extremists.&#8221;

Also speaking out against today's raid was UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, who emphasized that &#8220;nothing can justify the appalling outcome of this operation.&#8221; She called for a probe into the incident and underscored the need for accountability. &#8220;I unequivocally condemn what appears to be disproportionate use of force, resulting in the killing and wounding of so many people attempting to bring much-needed aid to the people of Gaza, who have now been enduring a blockade for more than three years,&#8221; Ms. Pillay said. She called on the Israeli Government to heed the &#8220;almost unanimous international view that the continued blockade of Gaza is both inhumane and illegal.&#8221; The blockade, the High Commissioner pointed out, &#8220;lies at the heart of so many of the problems plaguing the Israel-Palestine situation, as does the impression that the Israeli Government treats international law with perpetual disdain.&#8221; Without the blockade, she noted, &#8220;there would be no need for flotillas like this.&#8221;

Richard Falk, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, said that &#8220;Israel is guilty of shocking behavior by using deadly weapons against unarmed civilians on ships that were situated in the high seas where freedom of navigation exists, according to the law of the seas.&#8221; He echoed the calls by the Secretary-General and the High Commissioner for an investigation into today's incident, stressing that it is &#8220;essential that those Israelis responsible for this lawless and murderous behavior, including political leaders who issued the orders, be held criminally accountable for their wrongful acts.&#8221; Mr. Falk characterized the blockade of Gaza as a &#8220;massive form of collective punishment&#8221; that is tantamount to a crime against humanity. &#8220;Unless prompt and decisive action is taken to challenge the Israeli approach to Gaza all of us will be complicit in criminal policies that are challenging the survival of an entire beleaguered community,&#8221; he said.

The French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner was reported to have said that the violence could not be justified and that he was "profoundly shocked by the tragic consequences of the Israeli military operation against the Peace Flotilla for Gaza."

Israel denies that it has created a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and says that it allows sufficient food and medicine into the territory. Click here for more statements from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.


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## fawwaxs

zavis2003 said:


> israel is doing good for its elimination from world map
> 
> ISRAEL keep it up one day you wont be at world map
> 
> 
> world is going to be against israel ths way
> 
> really israel make things easy for us to project that israel is a terrorrist coountry



*Israel constantly breaks international law without any hesitation and without consequence. As usual, President Barack obama and a few other leaders from around the globe will make a speech condemning the action, but will there be any restitution? probably not. Israel's shocking disregard for human life and their childish tit for tat attitude towards the people of gaza only underlines their arrogance and hopefully shows the conscious people of the world their true face.*


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## EjazR

EyelessInGaza said:


> *As an aside, Pakistani and Indian forummers may find some parallels in our mutual history before 1947. Public rallies, emotional crowds, something gets out of hand, the British admin overreacts and you have a terrible incident.*



Interesting, you are hinting that the activists have taken the non-violent/Gandhian route in a spirit of civil disobedience or non-cooperation with the Israeli authorities.

It will be a welcome development IMO

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## EyelessInGaza

EjazR said:


> Interesting, you are hinting that the activists *have taken* the non-violent/Gandhian route in a spirit of civil disobedience or non-cooperation with the Israeli authorities.
> 
> It will be a welcome development IMO



Not really. I think the videos - such as they are - seem to suggest that the Israeli soldiers were attacked.

Of course the fact that this happened in international waters also means that you cannot condemn the people on the ship. Israel has blundered and, on the face of it, will not get much sympathy.

Coming back to the non-violent/Gandhian route, I think that it's an interesting idea. Don't know enough about the situation to suggest whether it would be a good idea as well.


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## EjazR

^^Well details will still emerge on what really happened. But I am looking at the broader picture of 700+ activists from around the world disobeying Israel for what they believe to be a morally wrong blockade. In other, words a civil disobedience


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## Solomon2

Last one tonight, guys:


TechLahore said:


> How many UN resolutions has Pakistan violated?


U.N. resolutions come in different flavors - their forcefulness is measured not by number, but by what Chapter they fall under. Do you think law is a popularity contest?



> Let it be recorded, Solomon2, that today you supported Israeli murderers killing peace activists in cold blood.


Let it be recorded that you are the one pinning the label! Who will be more embarrassed in the eyes of his family, community, and G-d when the truth is out?



> You are the one who is so blinded by your common faith with the Israeli murderers that you cannot see beyond it.


You have read that I am dealing with facts and context, not familial or religious affiliation.


> You obfuscate and attempt to divert attention by talking of purchase vs. theft, and bringing in the Ottomans in to the discussion as "Founders" of Israel when you know darn well I was referring to -


No, I really didn't. The two Caliphs are important because the first one promised to deed Palestine to the Jews if Muslims failed to defend the Empire (according to a letter of Herzl published in the early 20th century), and the second one actually did so in the Treaty of Sevres.



> Israel had been given a good and proper hiding in the Yom Kippur war -


You're a sick man to wish so much ill on people whose enemies have threatened it not just with conquest, but extermination.



> it was only the Nukes that America directly and indirectly gave to Israel - the famed "Samson option"


Nonsense, Israel got its nuclear assistance from the French.



> - along with the rapid-fire replacement of shot down A4s


I am not going to shoot down every red herring or factual error when they do not have much to do with the topic.



> Here is what Ben Gurion HIMSELF said about the occupation of Palestine. These are HIS words. Now refute them -


There is no need to refute them. But my understanding of them is different from yours. Ben-Gurion is stating that the Arab leaders - dictators and kings, all of them - won't recognize Israel or make peace with it because they fail to see the political advantage because _from the point of view the Arab leaders themselves created_the Jews "stole" the country.



> What the hell did Palestine have to do with WWI or WWII?


I just told you. After WWI it was seen that imperialism, or the desire for such, was the primary cause of great ills. The Russian, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman Empires were broken into nation-states instead and their populations mostly redistributed so the component nationalities would no longer strive one against the other with the Emperor/King as moderator, ruling all. Palestine was designated the Jewish homeland.



> The Jews claim God promised them Canaan. Well, there were people living in Cannan before the jews entered. So the jews and Zionists cannot lay the primal claim. Then they say it was given to us as a covenant. Ok. But they BROKE that covenant. They went around for 40 years in the desert, criticising manna from the heavens, worshipping the false god in the form of the golden calf, and when God finally brought them to Cannan, they said complained again that God hadn't magically evicted the inhabitants for them. It was only their repeated ungratefulness and violation of the covenant that caused Moses to refuse to lead them into the land. And then once they went in and won the land on the back of brave warriors and prophets like David, what did they do then? They formed two kingdoms and started fighting against each other. If they had an original covenant, they also violated it. If they were given the land, they also abused the privilege and were scattered across the earth. So laying a religously motivated claim also has no merit.


By the mods leave I will respond briefly to this: our religion also says that G-d will not always forget us. "Next Year in Jerusalem!" is the motto that sustained Jews for generations.



> Finally, laying a claim on moral grounds is complete bull$hit. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Nazi progroms -


The Arabs carried out their own pogroms.  link Ever hear of the Hebron massacre? link That was a real one, not a fake like Jenin or the flotilla incident. Yet in Hebron many Jews were saved by Arabs themselves - an indication that relationships between Jew and Arab aren't as simple as you seem to think.



> So there is no basis for this nonsensical solution of forcing an Israel down the throats of people who were already living on the land for hundreds, thousands of years. But now that there is an Israel, let's accept the reality for the sake of peace. However, this requires Israel to be humble and reasonable and to arrive at a solution which includes a two-state solution and an acknowledgement of the wrongs that have been committed against the Palestinians.


And what does such a settlement require the Arabs to do?



> what we have instead is a state hell bent on making everyone and their brother its enemy.


No. But it can be mis-portrayed that way.



> keep earning everyone's hate, until it all boils over and washes Israel away.


Hello? Knock-knock? Been there, done that, grandparents wiped out by the baseless hatred of the Nazis. If the Jews of Israel didn't fight their enemies would long ago, as Nasser put it, driven them into the sea and piled pyramids of Jewish skulls upon the remains of Tel Aviv.



> Very interesting. Did the Zionists start assaulting Palestinians first, or the did the Arab states kick out the jews first?


It is 111 years exactly since the Mufti of Jerusalem first proposed employing terror to drive the Jews out of Palestine - a proposal that the Ottomans rejected.



> Please get your facts straight.





> jews have overwhelmingly enjoyed better treatment in muslim lands throughout history as compared to christian lands.


Oh, absolutely! And as far as I know not one of Israel's declared enemies aspires to treat their Jews that well today. It is, I think, an indication of just how far Muslims have fallen.



> And suddenly you say Arab states kicked out jews... there must have been a reason for this sudden reversal, no? That reason was Zionist terror.


Perhaps I applied "kicked out" a little too broadly. Although reasons varied, "Zionist terror" never had anything to do with it; in Egypt, for example, it was the shame of losing wars against Israel, and this was the form of retaliation Nasser chose. The expulsion of the Jews of Jordan was part of the original division of Palestine under the British Mandate under WWI. I think only Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, and the Gulf states did that. The Jews of Yemen were heavily oppressed and threatened with arbitrary judgments and misrule; in Lebanon the government allowed Palestinians to occupy the main synagogue. (The Jews of Pakistan did not fare much better, as Zia ordered the main synagogue in Karachi demolished and the space used as a parking lot.)



> Stuff it. We have been here debating things freely all the while you were enjoying your vacation from PDF


It was indeed a vacation, for countering all this mud is work! Yet the Wikipedia ban robbed me of the historical resource I so rely on here, and the Facebook ban was an attempt to restrict not just freedom of debate, but freedom of association - in other words, to put limits on politics. That you think you are debating freely just means you hadn't reached those limits.[/quote]



> we were also pretty active on FB which was banned in name and clearly not in spirit. I said at the time that this was only going to be a temporary measure to calm people down, not stifle debate, and that's exactly what it was.


Well, maybe you were right. Next time I'll know to believe you, not the government of Pakistan, O.K.?



> I don't know of a freer press today than the press in Pakistan. We abuse every leader in power daily. We publish 50 scandals and accusations that would be libel in other countries, against the sitting President, on a daily basis. I will get arrested in the US for things that I can say in Pakistan...


Freedom to libel somebody is not something to boast about, especially in a country where so many are prepared to act on violent rumor, and so few are willing to prevent them ("Anything to do with Allah, or the prophet, and everyone keeps quiet. That's the problem with our country.")



> If Pakistan has become demented for pointing out the truth which you can't bear, clearly, then I wish madness upon all of humanity.


I do wonder about that.



> You are completely unaccepting of any cricisim of Israel. Most of us here will look at things even about our own country from various angles and you'll find us debating the good and the bad. There is a wide spectrum of opinion here. Yet, you, who claim to be an American, merely on account of your faith, cannot find a single fault with Israel.


Of course I can find faults with Israel. I can find fault with Pakistan, France, and St. Helena, too. But it is only Israel whose enemies cite its faults as a reason for exterminating the state and slaughtering its population.



> Justice is good enough for me. Netanyahu would be tried as a war criminal, as would Sharon, and they would face life in prison.


Maybe that could happen to Sharon, but I doubt that a fair and impartial trial would convict Netanyahu of anything criminal. Would you accept that? Nor do you entertain the notion of putting Israel's enemies on trial for their various documented transgressions, like employing civilians as human shields, breaking the legs of their domestic opponents, or wiping out an entire city's population.

If it's only a crime when you're applying it to Jews, that is anti-Semitism.



> How many Zionists were on Palestinian land in 1880? How many Palestinians?


Those figures are easy to find; look them up.[/quote]



> How many Israelis have been killed - total - in all acts of violence involving the Arabs? How many Arabs and Palestinians have been killed?


I think we've passed the stage where it's up to me to find the answers. Why don't you do some of the work for a change?



> How many Israelis live in refugee camps on their own land?


Yep. Israel re-settled all the 500,000 Jews kicked out of Arab lands on its own territory; Israel is, after all, the Jewish national homeland.



> The Arabs and Palestinians have suffered in EVERY way, and the Zionists have benefitted in EVERY way, and all these things are acknowledged in resolutions by the UN and YET you call this an "Arab narrative". Shame.


I have nothing to be ashamed about, and I have known Pakistanis who, knowing better, would squirm uncomfortably at your words.



> The blockade of Palestine is illegal in of itself. The UN has asked Israel to remove this blockage.


I don't think you know what you are talking about.



> The murderous Israeli soldiers had no right to board those ships.


"Murderous" - tried and convicted in your mind. Blood libel, indeed. "right to board the ships" - there is such a thing as maritime law that dictates who can board ships when under what circumstances - including in international waters - and how those on the ships being boarded are supposed to behave. You don't know it, do you?



> Israel is 100% responsible.


Israel has to be, because it isn't like Pakistan or the U.S. was going to take responsibility for Israel's security, yes?



> Nothing about Israel frightens me, let me tell you that.


Much safer to condemn Jews than Arabs, isn't it? Jews just argue in response, but a terrorist might decide to attack your family in response, yes? Or maybe threaten your place of business?


> I actually feel a great deal of pity for many of the innocent Israelis that now find themselves in a deep, deep hole the Zionists have dug for them. No power on earth, ever in history, has remained dominant for ever. No small group of people has wronged another far larger group of people without paying the price eventually.


I think Ben-Gurion asserted out in his memoirs that Israel will never be able to match, in physical power, the strength of its neighbors; instead, Israel survives on the basis of its moral superiority. I don't quite understand that claim myself. That is, of course, the basis of so many attacks against the Jewish state - and is confirmed by the refusal of so many to let their citizens travel to Israel to witness its goodness and justice in action for themselves.



> Israel might have American aid and borrowed American equipment, but it does not have the power to change the laws of nature, or the trajectory of history -


Who do you think you are talking to? Israel has disappeared as a state more than once in history. And it has also come back. Babylon is gone, Assyria is gone, Rome is gone - but Israel has remained, even after the efforts of all three to rub the Jews out.



> Which territory has West Pakistan lost since 1947?


Well, first there was stuff yielded to China. Then India gained some in the India-Pakistan wars. Finally, in the last decade, the Taliban and other un-controlled terror groups extended their influence throughout the country, superseding the state.



> Please don't confuse your dreams and hopes with reality. Let us, you and I, place a wager on whether or not Pakistan fractures.


From my point of view, Pakistan already has. 



> If you are going to compare Germany - a country that perpetrated the holocaust - with Pakistan, then you are out in looney land.


The smallest number I've seen quoted for the fatalities the Pakistani Army imposed upon East Pakistan in 1971 is 300,000. That's Holocaust-comparison territory.


> Your comparison is offensive and repulsive.


I wish you _would_ be offended and repelled by what your country did back then. 



> Others have compared the Nazi holocaust perpetrated against the Jews with the Israeli holocaust against the Palestinians.


Except that any allegations of "Israeli holocaust against the Palestinians" are a complete and total myth. It may disappoint you, but the number of deaths of Palestinian Arabs over the past sixty years due to Arab-Israeli strife is way under ten thousand. The Arabs of Gaza, sustained by oodles of international welfare, have almost the highest level of population growth in the entire world.

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## Luftwaffe

Solomon2..

After reading all of your literature you could simply have posted that israel always deny every wrongdoing and is always innocent.


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## Solomon2

A brutal ambush at sea

Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of peace activists, and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter

Ron Ben-Yishai
Published: 05.31.10, 15:44 / Israel News

Our Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessels bridge and order the Marmaras captain to stop.

Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operations commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.


Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.


However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.


One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other dont shoot, dont shoot, even though they sustained numerous blows.


I saw the tip of a rifle

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.


The planned rush towards the vessels bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. Throw stun grenades, shouted Flotilla 13s commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.


The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.


Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.


I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell, one commando said. He fired at us and we fired back. We didnt see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldnt find him. Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.


2 errors

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.


Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiers hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.


It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops  not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.


The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.


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## Luftwaffe

written by israeli journalist.


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## Solomon2

luftwaffe said:


> Solomon2..
> 
> After reading all of your literature you could simply have posted that israel always deny every wrongdoing and is always innocent.



Israelis aren't always saints. Neither are Pakistanis. Is that sufficient reason for India to invade, wipe out your country, and execute its population? (Though I don't think India seeks the last.)

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## Luftwaffe

I thought you were going to bed.

My post was to your long literature trying to defend the atrocities, genocides and war crimes. stick to the topic you are always defending criminals and their acts in almost all threads related to Israeli actions.


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## Solomon2

The Terror Finance Flotilla
The convoy of ships allegedly trying to bring aid to the Gaza Strip was organized by a group belonging to an officially designated terrorist organization.
BY Jonathan Schanzer

The Turkish organizers of the Gaza Strip-bound flotilla that was boarded this morning by Israeli commandos knew well in advance that their vessels would never reach Israeli waters. That's because the organizers belong to a nonprofit that was banned by the Israeli government in July 2008 for its ties to terrorism finance.

The Turkish IHH (Islan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi in Turkish) was founded in 1992, and reportedly popped up on the CIA's radar in 1996 for its radical Islamist leanings. Like many other Islamist charities, the IHH has a record of providing relief to areas where disaster has struck in the Muslim world.

However, the organization is not a force for good. The Turkish nonprofit belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella organization known to finance terrorism called the Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir in Arabic). Notably, the Union is chaired by Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who is known best for his religious ruling that encourages suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. According to one report, Qardawi personally transferred millions of dollars to the Union in an effort to provide financial support to Hamas.

In 2008, the Israelis banned IHH, along with 35 other Islamist charities worldwide, for its ties to the Union of Good. This was a follow-on designation; Israelis first blocked the Union of Good from operating in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002. 

Interestingly, the Union of Good may not only be tied to Hamas. Included in the Israeli list of 36 designees was the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO). In 2006, both the U.S. government and the United Nations designated the IIRO branch offices in Indonesia and the Philippines for financing al Qaeda. French magistrate Jean-Louis Brougiere also testified that IHH had an "important role" in Ahmed Ressam's failed "millennium plot" to bomb the Los Angeles airport in late 1999.

The U.S. government, it should be noted, also views the Union of Good as a terrorist organization. On November 12, 2008, a press release from the U.S. Treasury announced the umbrella group's leaders as Specially Designated Global Terrorists (SDGT), stating that the group was "created by Hamas leadership to transfer funds to the terrorist organization."

"Terrorist groups such as Hamas continue to exploit charities to radicalize vulnerable communities and cultivate support for their violent activities," said Treasury Undersecretary Stuart Levey.

According to Treasury, Hamas's leadership actually created the Union of Good in 2000just after the launch of the armed campaign against Israelas a means to transfer funds to Hamas. At the time of designation in 2008, the Treasury believed that the Union of Good was transferring "tens of millions of dollars a year" to Hamas-controlled entities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

As the Treasury release explained, "The Union of Good acts as a broker for Hamas by facilitating financial transfers between a web of charitable organizationsincluding several organizations previously designated for providing support to Hamasand Hamas-controlled organizations in the West Bank and Gaza. The primary purpose of this activity is to strengthen Hamas' political and military position in the West Bank and Gaza."

It gets worse. The Treasury, drawing from declassified documents, stated unequivocally that the Union of Good "compensated Hamas terrorists by providing payments to the families of suicide bombers. One of [the charities], the Al-Salah Society, previously identified as a key support node for Hamas, was designated in August 2007... The Society employed a number of members of the Hamas military wing and supported Hamas-affiliated combatants during the first Intifada."

Then there's the leadership. Apart from the aforementioned Qardawi, Union of Good's top officials include Hamas members, as well as Yemeni national Abd al-Majid al-Zindani, who was designated by the U.S. Treasury as a terrorist in 2004 for providing support to al Qaeda. 

Thus, the convoy of ships allegedly trying to bring aid to the Gaza Strip could never be characterized as a "peace flotilla." With ties to Hamas and other dangerous groups, the IHH can only be described as a dangerous organization. Its members only underscored this fact when they attacked Israeli naval personnel with iron bars and knives, ultimately leading to the regrettable deaths this morning on the Mediterranean Sea.

_Jonathan Schanzer is a former terrorism finance analyst at the U.S. Department of the Treasury and the vice president for research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies._


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## TaimiKhan

Solomon2 said:


> A brutal ambush at sea
> 
> Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of peace activists, and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter
> 
> Ron Ben-Yishai
> Published: 05.31.10, 15:44 / Israel News
> 
> Our Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessels bridge and order the Marmaras captain to stop.
> 
> Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operations commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.
> 
> 
> Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.
> 
> 
> However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.
> 
> 
> One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other dont shoot, dont shoot, even though they sustained numerous blows.
> 
> 
> I saw the tip of a rifle
> 
> The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.
> 
> 
> The planned rush towards the vessels bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. Throw stun grenades, shouted Flotilla 13s commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.
> 
> 
> The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.
> 
> 
> Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.
> 
> 
> I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell, one commando said. He fired at us and we fired back. We didnt see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldnt find him. Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.
> 
> 
> 2 errors
> 
> During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.
> 
> 
> Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiers hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.
> 
> 
> It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops  not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.
> 
> 
> The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.



Aaahh, the Israeli Angel Commandos and its Angel like defence forces. 

The massacres in Lebanon refugee camps, the killing of thousands of Israelis and off course the 2006 Lebanon's massacre all done by someone else, not by the Israeli Angels.


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> Israelis aren't always saints. Neither are Pakistanis. Is that sufficient reason for India to invade, wipe out your country, and execute its population? (Though I don't think India seeks the last.)



What happen to your I am retiring cr@p, oh let me guess your brethren messed up and now you have act like their mouth piece. After I read that sh!ty attempt at journalism that you had posted. Let me ask you something, do you understand the fact that your guys boarded a ship while it was still in international waters. And army men got attacked my clubs and they fired back.
Well then again that is not a surprise after all you guys are used to it which target practicing on Palestinians under the same pretext that oh they had stones. Get a life dude.


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## Solomon2

TaimiKhan said:


> Aaahh, the Israeli Angel Commandos and its Angel like defence forces.


If you saw it, would you then believe it? And if you believed it, would you dare report it? Perhaps Israel should stick Pakistani reporters on its assault helicopters in addition to video cameras. Ah, but Pakistani aren't permitted to visit Israel, are they? You'll have to make do with the videos then, just like everyone else. g'nite.


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> The Terror Finance Flotilla




A nice try indeed, yesterday another clown from israel was towing around the line that the Turks were electing a party like Hamas and all, I mean give me a freaking break here. Are you guys so pathetic that any f**k up and the next thing to cover it up you will play the hamas, Islamic jihad, and GWOT card. What a bunch of morons. Many a time here people ask why are Muslims so upset with these things. Its solely for these reasons that the any one who messes up they just play the Islamic extremism card. Now the jews a re hell bend on proving that the Turks have elected an extremist party, the aid convoy had terrorist links. To me the biggest terrorists are the Jews. The biggest nuisance, no wonder you guys had it coming at you on more then one occasions.


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> If you saw it, would you then believe it? And if you believed it, would you dare report it? Perhaps Israel should stick Pakistani reporters on its assault helicopters in addition to video cameras. Ah, but Pakistani aren't permitted to visit Israel, are they? You'll have to make do with the videos then, just like everyone else. g'nite.




^^


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## TaimiKhan

Solomon2 said:


> If you saw it, would you then believe it? And if you believed it, would you dare report it? Perhaps Israel should stick Pakistani reporters on its assault helicopters in addition to video cameras. Ah, but Pakistani aren't permitted to visit Israel, are they? You'll have to make do with the videos then, just like everyone else. g'nite.



Well it may have missed your attention, but a very well known Pakistani journalist is in the custody of Israel, who was fortunately on that very ship and saw all this first hand and experienced it too.

No matter what you post, from what you post, we all know the truth and what Israel does. 

As said by many members, when a thief enters your house, you don't welcome him, you retaliate. 

Israel Angel commandos entered the ships in international waters, thus the protesters had the right to defend themselves from the Israeli thugs. Yeah if it had been Israeli waters (which there aren't any, as its all occupied by force by the Israeli thugs), then the protesters would have been the thieves, but for now, the Israelis are the thugs. 

A simple but true fact.

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## Bang Galore

*(Pakistan) FM denied access to US high-ups for hours*

ISLAMABAD  Incumbent Governments tall claim that it had easy access to the American higher officials, was exposed on Monday when Foreign Minister had to wait for hours to contact any of the American high-ups.
Well-placed sources informed TheNation on good authority that Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi had to face embarrassment, when he was denied access to Richard Holbrook and Hilary Clinton to take up the issue of three Pakistanis, who went missing after Israeli attack on flotilla of aid ship. It was because of this reason that Shah Mehmood kept himself away from the media persons, until Monday evening.
Sources from inside revealed to TheNation that Shah Mahmood Qureshi had been trying to contact American Special Representative to Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrook and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton since Monday morning; however, he was denied early access to both till the evening.
After he failed to contact Holbrook and Hilary Clinton, Qureshi contacted US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W. Peterson, and requested her to contact Israeli administration for the early release of three Pakistanis, who were on board when Israeli army attacked flotilla of aid ship.
 I have talked to US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne Peterson to ask Obama Administration to use its influence on Israel for early release of the stranded Pakistanis; including veteran journalist Talat Hussein Foreign Minister Qureshi told the journalists Monday evening.
When contacted spokesperson of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, he said that Foreign Minister had talked to Richard Holbrooke, who had assured his help on the issue. He further said, quoting US authorities, that in Till Aviv (Israel) there was no Pakistani among the dead.

It is pertinent to mention here that Pakistan on Monday strongly condemned brutal and barbarian Israeli attack on a flotilla of aid ships, bound for the Gaza Strip and called the International community to take notice of the incident. In this context, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani also had strongly condemned the attack on the peaceful flotilla by the Israeli forces.
A group of Pakistanis including journalists had been travelling with the flotilla.
It is a sad incident. The people and Government of Pakistan strongly condemn it. There is no moral and legal justification for it, he said to the reporters on Monday evening during a press conference that was called on a short notice.
Foreign Office further informed that the diplomatic efforts were being made to ascertain the whereabouts and safety of Pakistani nationals, including senior journalist Syed Talat Hussain, Raza Mahmood Agha and President Khubaib Foundation Islamabad, Nadeem Ahmad Khan.
According to a press note issued from Foreign office on late Monday evening, the contact is continuously being made with the friendly states to resolve the issue at the earliest. The assistance of UN Secretary General and the International Committee of Red Cross has also been sought.
Pakistan has also requested the Secretary General of the OIC to convene an emergency meeting of the OICs Permanent Representatives with a view to evolving an effective response.
Meanwhile, Federal Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Qamar Zaman Kaira, has said that the Government would use all its diplomatic means and resources to locate and safely bring home the missing Pakistani journalists on board the Gaza aid mission ships Freedom Flotilla.


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## Aslan

Bang Galore said:


> *(Pakistan) FM denied access to US high-ups for hours*



Link please

Also I really dont understand the attitude of the GOP and their obsession with the US. They could have contacted China, Egypt, or Jordan. All of whom have diplomatic relations with israel. Why run after the US, these clowns will never learn or change. They get treated like a pet dog, in fact worse then they pets. And still at every instance they just run to the US. f***ing morons.


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## Bang Galore

khalidali said:


> Link please



sorry, here it is:
FM denied access to US high-ups for hours | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

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## kidwaibhai

Bang Galore said:


> sorry, here it is:
> FM denied access to US high-ups for hours | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



Please do not quote the nation it is filled with hyperbolic dangerously nationalist journalist that arent know for their accurate reporting.


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## mjnaushad

Wow.....After reading all this bullshit that "innocent" Israeli soldiers attack was the right step i wonder what kind of humans are they. Are they any better than taliban?? Even taliban wont let any human die because of hunger. But Israel broke all the records of terrorism. Celebrating the killing of innocent civilian. Others on internet defending this terrorism. defending the Killing of 20 innocents in international waters. How bad can human be.? It can be as bad as a israeli. there is no worse than that.


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## fawwaxs

Protest against Israel's actions, to support the flotilla and to demand action 

11.00am, The Foreign Office, Whitehall, London.
2,00pm Downing Street, London.
5.00pm, BBC Oxford Road, Manchester


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## Usama86

Loki said:


> Not what i read. It is administered by Wakf Board and non-muslims i.e, Jews arent allowed to pray there even though they have probably as much right to do so. Possibly muslim pilgrims dont get a visa to visit Israel and the holy sites an understandable reaction since many muslim countries dont have diplomatic relations with Israel. As to if a Muslim administration would be any fairer ..the proof is in its pudding but given that non-muslims cannot even enter Mecca or Medina and a non-muslim cannot practice his or her faith in the muslim holy land i wouldnt put much faith in the fairness of a muslim administration.



I am talking about the muslims who live in palistine/israel are not permitted to pray there not some one from outside. Please dont base your arguments on assumptions that since muslims dont let others enter Makkah or Medina so they will do the same everywhere else. Please get your facts right, Muslims have been by far the fairer administrators when ever they had the chance and this is something which even Jews and Christians acknowledge. As i stated earlier that you will find ample literature and video documentaries by westerners on the Muslim rule in Palistine ( Salah ud din in particular). Any how, this discussion will not be a very productive one. All i intend to say is that one should always try to be on a moral high ground, wrong is wrong and right is right. 
People of Gaza are not suffering only at the hands of Israiles but Egypt has also blocked its border with Gaza hence Egypt is also responsible.


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## Usama86

adir said:


> Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed



Yes ofcourse that is not enough to fulfil your appetite.


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## gurjot

mikkix said:


> next 20 years Israel is no more,,,,Palestine will be the rulers....No Jews.....



who knows next 20 minutes,u r predicting 20 yrs.who predicted 9/11 who changed the whole world.i think u are getting my point


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## sparklingway

Bang Galore said:


> sorry, here it is:
> FM denied access to US high-ups for hours | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



It is The Nation. Normally I stab myself before I believe anything any news outlet except Dawn or the magazine Newsline claims.


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## blackwater 007

mikkix said:


> next 20 years Israel is no more,,,,Palestine will be the rulers....No Jews.....



Hahahah another chela of Zaid Hamid lollllllllllllllllllllllllllll


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## Areesh

Chappal Chor said:


> And then there will be gazwa tul hind out of the magical hat............. india will be destroyed israel will be destoryed



Hey Chappal Chor your country has an illustrious history of being occupied by foreign forces for a long long time. How can you predict about the future of your country that it would be different. Same goes for your zionist friends in middle east also.


They also have a long history of getting their a** spanked by everyone.


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## Bull

The two parties here - Israel and Hamas doesnt recognise each other and view each other with much hostility. Anybody who takes side will face the wrath of of the other.

The only issue to be discussed here is that the force by Israel was disproportionate.

You cant send in commondos' to arrest a violent crowd who are at best armed with clubs and knives. They could have easily disbaled the flotilla and held them hostage and let them surrender and then arrest them

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## Dr.Evil

Areesh said:


> Hey Chappal Chor your country has an illustrious history of being occupied by foreign forces for a long long time. How can you predict about the future of your country that it would be different. Same goes for your zionist friends in middle east also.
> 
> 
> They also have a long history of getting their a** spanked by everyone.



That's the same country in which You are living as well ( at least part of India ) *Your Pakistan*


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## fawwaxs



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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> That's the same country in which You are living as well ( at least part of India ) *Your Pakistan*



Dude you need to take a freaking chill pill. India is india and Pakistan is Pakistan 2 different countries. You cant accept that then you need to f*ck off.

.!..


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## Comet

Bull said:


> The two parties here - Israel and Hamas doesnt recognise each other and view each other with much hostility. Anybody who takes side will face the wrath of of the other.
> 
> The only issue to be discussed here is that the force by Israel was disproportionate.
> 
> You cant send in commondos' to arrest a violent crowd who are at best armed with clubs and knives. *They could have easily disbaled the flotilla and held them hostage and let them surrender and then arrest them*



Agreed with the bold part. Israel made a booboo and may have to face the heat.


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## Areesh

Dr.Evil said:


> That's the same country in which You are living as well ( at least part of India ) *Your Pakistan*



My Pakistan is Pakistan nothing to do with India.


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## Tree-kingdoms

I thought Israel is a peaceful nation and felt sorry to them of what they were suffered during World War II, but now from any angle, it seems that they are attempting to afflict common islam pepole with the same suffering which were given by the Nazi.

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## Brotherhood

Israel Holds Hundreds Seized During Raid on Flotilla - NYTimes.com


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## Ahmad

gambit said:


> Then please explain to the readers as to why a kitchen knife *CANNOT* be used as a 'weapon' to assault another person with intention to do grievous or fatal bodily harm.



kitchen knife can be considerd as weapon. but those kitchen knife holders werent the ones who attacked the solidiers, the soldiers attacked them. the terrorists could have easily taken the control of the ship if they wanted without any any causualty.


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## Kompromat




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## Ahmad

Fireurimagination said:


> The same fate would probably await any unauthorized ship approaching any other sovereign country in the world, probably in many other cases the ship would have been torpedoed to the bottom of the ocean, infact Israel showed restraint and risked it's commandos by boarding the ship
> 
> Also Which part of "naval blockade" didn't the protesters understand and why were the Peace Activists attacking Commandos with Iron Rods/Knives/clubs ?



so what is the solution for supplying food to the gazans? shall they die of hunger as well as israeli bullets? according to the UN only less than one quarter of the aid required to the gaza is permitted by israel, while no construction material is allowed into gaza in order to build their demolished home by israel, the israelis even decide what te gazans eat and what not, for example they are not allowed to eat pasta. i know you members from india dont like pakistan, but for that reason dont side with the zionists terrorists.


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## Kompromat

gambit said:


> *The flotilla never had any right to violate Israeli territorial waters in the first place*, no matter how humanitarian is their mission. If anything, the only group that warrant access would be the International Red Cross.



They were in the International waters you dumb !

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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> Member reported for Supporting terrorism and terrorist activities in India.



but what about you supporting the terrorists as well? you should also be reported.


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## DaRk WaVe

Israelis have shown that they enjoy sadistic pleasure seeing the people of Gaza die with misery


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## Kompromat

Tree-kingdoms said:


> I thought Israel is a peaceful nation and felt sorry to them of what they were suffered during World War II, but now from any angle, it seems that they are attempting to afflict common islam pepole with the same suffering which were given by the Nazi.

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## Dr.Evil

Ahmad said:


> but what about you supporting the terrorists as well? you should also be reported.



How did you come to this conclusion, Show me any of my threads where I supported killing innocent people, If I have done it, Pls. report it.

*I reported a member of Supporting Ajmal Kasab and mumbai terrorist attacks and asking for more terrorist attacks in India.*

Hope you got the point.


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## Ahmad

adir said:


> Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed



does it really matter? so the number is important to you not the human life!! by the way, you terrorists have killed many many kids/women/men in palestine.


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## Ahmad

adir said:


> Israel Now consider to sand a aid convoy to kurdistan and Armenia.



i dont expect such a human act from the most inhuman gov on face of the earth. your aid to the kurds is not required, instead please dont kill the palestinian kids and steal their land.


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## Kompromat

adir said:


> Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed



I wish you would have been one of those 10

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## Awesome

adir said:


> Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed


Wow then it shouldn't be a problem for Israel to bring only 10 back to life?

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## Awesome

adir said:


> Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed


Wait I got one better.

Please nominate only 10 Israelis to be executed. It's only 10, no problem for you guys right?

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## Kompromat

Zionists rally against the aid convoy.


YouTube - &#x202b;???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????&#x202c;&lrm;


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## Aslan

adir said:


> Wow what a lie only 10 have been killed




Oh how sad only 10! Man those pewish angles should be prosecuted for killing only 10, didnt they know that the satanic pews like to see blood and the number of people killed should be in 10's and not a single 10. Dont worry you can fulfill your lust of seeing more blood the next time your sweet angle like peace loving army men will go up against the macho terrorists. Dont be sad. Freak


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## TechLahore

Solomon2 said:


> Last one tonight, guys:U.N. resolutions come in different flavors - their forcefulness is measured not by number, but by what Chapter they fall under. Do you think law is a popularity contest?



I'll leave it at this Solomon2, I believe your rejoinders to be a reflection of your position; untenable. I think we've achieved the goal of debating this back and forth and as I said earlier, I leave it to the readers here to review both points of view and arrive at their own conclusions. Continuing to discuss this under circumstances where we have already determined that you will defend each and every act Israel commits, regardless of how brazen and ill-willed it is, is pointless.

Good day to you.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gambit said:


> Then please explain to the readers as to why a kitchen knife *CANNOT* be used as a 'weapon' to assault another person with intention to do grievous or fatal bodily harm.



Almost any object that can be wielded in the hands of an individual can cause 'bodily harm' and therefore be called a weapon.

But the fact is that the images shown so far do not show substantiate the Israeli excuse of 'weapons being smuggled into Gaza'.

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## Durrak

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...97250465_120286521322926_243283_4155040_n.jpg

PROTESTNG AGAINST ISRAEL TERRORISM


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## Ahmad

Vande Mataram said:


> Yes, the world may not particularly *encourage* Israel to blockade. But it IS approved! because these governments can understand Israel's security situation.



but how about security of the palestinians? how about their land? their kids and women are systmatically killed by terrorist israel, their land is being stealt everyday, according to the UN, EU(and even americans i think) all those settlemetns are illegal, the UN says that only less a quarter of the aid requred for gaza is allowed by the israel. i cant F*u*c*k*i*n*g understand how some indian members can justify the acts of terror by israel, if the american members defend israel i can understand it why, but why indian members(some of them) you guys only see what the israelis say but never ever try to see the plight and suffering of palestnains. such a shame.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gambit said:


> Just for possession? Of course not. But if you come at a police officer with a cricket bat or a kitchen knife...What do you think the officer would do?



In this case it was the 'police officer/thugs' coming at unarmed/innocent people - the people defended themselves with whatever they had.

The fault lies with the 'police' who are rogue thugs, not the innocent people delivering aid defending themselves.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Durran3 said:


> That still doesn't mean that you jump the boat with Commandos and kill 10 people. Everyone knew including the Israeli's that the Ship had gone through border inspections and that no weapons were available on board. Also those knives that your clinging to is a really weak argument for weapons. Any aid ship with over 10000 tons of food and equipment is bound to have knives and screw drivers. Maybe some idiot might have smuggled a gun but that was not the intention of this convoy.
> 
> We already know this aid was a political stunt but an important one. Since 2007 Israel has had full control over what goes in and outside of Gaza. The 15,000 tons of food that Israel provides weekly is not even 1/3 of whats needed according to the latest UN reports. This political stunt was to bring this blockade into light around the world without resorting to violence or war and the organizers succeeded in doing that... and seriously knives in a Food humanitarian food convoy thats scary


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## Durrak




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## Vande Mataram

Asim Aquil said:


> Wait I got one better.
> 
> Please nominate only 10 Israelis to be executed. It's only 10, no problem for you guys right?



And I thought these people called me "inhumane fa****" for *supporting* Israel. (and I hadn't encouraged these killings even)

 Proves what you guys are really after.
You aren't mourning for the loss of life. What you care about is that Israel attacked Palestine. Another Muslim-Jew hate hate issue.

Pathetic again to see a site staff sending this comment.
Good luck guys =).


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## Ahmad

Jigs said:


> "Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an on Monday accused Israel of committing "inhuman state terror" with its deadly raid on a fleet of aid ships bound for Gaza."



I have always like Mr. Urdogan(spelling?) for his brave stance. i might or might not agree with him over the kurd issues, but he is such a great man.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gambit said:


> *IF* it is true that Israeli commandos stormed the ship armed with only paint-ball guns and sidearms, then any assault on the soldiers with kitchen knives and wooden sticks would be the equivalent of doing the same to a squad of police officers coming to execute a search warrant.



Where was the Israeli 'search warrant' and under what law did Israel have authority to assault the flotilla? Because without a 'search warrant recognized by international law and legal standing' the Israelis were the ones 'assaulting' the people on the ship and committing an illegal and violent act against which the people of the ship had full rights to defend themselves.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gambit said:


> Sidearms are generally considered defensive weapons. You have been watching too many action movies.



Sidearms are considered 'defensive weapons' but 'slingshots and kitchen knives' justify the murder of two dozen innocents.


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## Jigs

*Turkish PM Erdo&#287;an says Israel 'must be punished' for raid on Gaza aid ship.*

ISTANBUL - Daily News with wires


Turkey's prime minister on Tuesday said Israel's raid on a Gaza-bound Turkish aid vessel that killed several people was a "bloody massacre."

Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an said in Parliament that "*no one should test Turkey's patience*."

Israeli commandos on Monday killed several pro-Palestinian activists after raiding humanitarian aid ships that were en route to the Gaza Strip. The largest ship in the flotilla was the Turkish Mavi Marmara, with around 600 people on board.

Erdo&#287;an on Tuesday also recalled his confrontation with Israeli President Shimon Peres at the Davos summit in January 2009. In a memorable outburst, Erdo&#287;an stormed out of the debate after telling Peres: "You know well how to kill people."

*"Before this, I told them face-to-face, 'You know how to murder,'" Erdo&#287;an said Tuesday, "and the recent attack proves it true." *

He said Turkey's hostility was as "strong as its friendship is valuable," The Associated Press reported.

Erdo&#287;an said the Israeli action was an attack "on international law, the conscience of humanity and world peace."

He called on Israel to immediately end the "inhumane" blockade on Gaza.

Support for Palestinians

*"Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood," Erdo&#287;an said, adding that Turkey would continue to support the Palestinian people.

"We will not turn our back on Palestine, Palestinians and Gaza," Erdo&#287;an said.*

He also urged Israelis to question the actions of their government.

*"It is damaging your country's image by conducting banditry and piracy," Erdo&#287;an said. "It is damaging interests of Israel and your peace and safety. It is the Israeli people who must stop the Israeli government in the first place."*

He said Israel cannot face the international community without expressing "regret."

*"Israel cannot ensure its security by drawing the hatred of the entire world," the prime minister declared.*

Turkish PM Erdo?an says Israel 'must be punished' for raid on Gaza aid ship - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

gambit said:


> Go down to the street and charge an armed police officer with a knife. If you can, report back to the forum on what happened...



Did the ships have guns affixed on their decks, or perhaps they had giant twenty foot knives affixed to their bows?

You are taking your analogy to absurd lengths.


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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> And I thought these people called me "inhumane fa****" for *supporting* Israel. (and I hadn't encouraged these killings even)
> 
> Proves what you guys are really after.
> You aren't mourning for the loss of life. What you care about is that Israel attacked Palestine. Another Muslim-Jew hate hate issue.
> 
> Pathetic again to see a site staff sending this comment.
> Good luck guys =).



Things would be much more clear if you could take your head out of your @$$ for 5 mins.


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## Durrak

he isrite
but the ques is thz
wht r government is doing in favour of palestine ??
nthng its shameful


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vande Mataram said:


> So called "civilians":
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers


Right, you illegally assault a ship with armed thugs (Israeli commandos) and don't expect the passengers to fight back?


> What's REALLY on the ship: Part II:



OMG, kitchen knives, tools and rods!

Oh wait, are those some LP's in the bottom left?


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## Aslan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right, you illegally assault a ship with armed thugs (Israeli commandos) and don't expect the passengers to fight back?
> 
> 
> OMG, kitchen knives, tools and rods!
> 
> Oh wait, are those some LP's in the bottom left?



So many weapons poor pewish soldiers, they even found this in one of the pewish soldiers.


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## Jigs

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right, you illegally assault a ship with armed thugs (Israeli commandos) and don't expect the passengers to fight back?
> 
> 
> OMG, kitchen knives, tools and rods!
> 
> Oh wait, are those some LP's in the bottom left?



I think those are the WMDs the U.S. was looking for in Iraq


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## Zillay_Khan

Solomon2 said:


> Israelis aren't always saints. Neither are Pakistanis. Is that sufficient reason for India to invade, wipe out your country, and execute its population? (Though I don't think India seeks the last.)



Listen dumb A*ss what our government does is not teh voice of the people, but in isreal there people are land monging wh**** who steal invade and build upon land which doenst belong to them, abit like what india tries and does in occupied kahsmir. as for india to wipe us out, u wish that boy and your girlie mates india and all scumbags combined wud never achieve that, not while there is a single drop of pakistani blood in our veins no matter what part of the world we may be in. Ok chum

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## TechLahore

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Oh wait, are those some LP's in the bottom left?



Don't you know, AM, that (hollywood) Ninjas frequently use disc shaped objects to decapitate people from a distance? These are not LPs or CDs, they are sharp, circular projectiles that can be launched at high velocity to silently and stealthily kill an armed man. Shame on you for not knowing the difference!!

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## Vande Mataram

khalidali said:


> Things would be much more clear if you could take your head out of your @$$ for 5 mins.



 Good argument? Glad to see the mods here don't do anything about it. But I won't stoop down to your level. Give me your argument and I'll respond to it.

@You and that guy are real sadists.
Talk about being humane now my ***. So you want to kill 10 Israelis because 10 Palestinians died? 

*************************



AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right, you illegally assault a ship with armed thugs (Israeli commandos) and don't expect the passengers to fight back?
> 
> OMG, kitchen knives, tools and rods!
> 
> Oh wait, are those some LP's in the bottom left?



Those "thugs" you call are there to protect their country from Terrorists.   

Go read the back pages. You can see my arguments there already. 

And have you heard "they (the civilians ) tried to strip these *'thugs'* off their protective gear and hit them"

@Since you did refer to my post. Answer that video. *Before the commandos ENTERED the boat*, the so called "civilians" *pulled them in, mugged* them and thew one off the boat. 

Civilians? 


@Still again, I have not seen ONE video that contradicts that. These people claim the IDF commandos shot them and harassed them FIRST. That video I saw simply is solid proof against that.


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## All-Green

In modern times when the world preaches about collective responsibility and values of peace and justice, we here see a state which has been forcibly keeping a people under siege without allowing them an ample supply of essential provisions to sustain life it self.
All the while most of the world deems it as a condemnable act, yet does nothing about it. 

This was not a dangerous military operation in a real sense, on which harbored the survival of Israel.
It did not merit a storm raid and immediate action justifying killing of unarmed civilians...sorry but kitchen knives against armed naval vessels and commandos...are you kidding me?
People know what Israel does and these were people from all over the world...they would have been crazy to carry firearms because Israel would have killed them all...despite the disparity between the combatants...or should i say the hunter and the prey...there sure was blood spilled...however i am curious to know the number of Israeli commandos killed despite murdering dozens who suddenly attacked them with knives.

The people were genuine aid workers and media people, not at all militants or trained men who wanted to fight Israelis...they would have carried AK-47s instead or something to stand a chance if this was the intent.

"This flotilla was anything but a humanitarian mission," Israel's deputy UN ambassador Daniel Carmon said.
He said the activists had used "knives, clubs and other weapons" to attack the soldiers who boarded the lead boat, the Mavi Marmara.

Other weapons...must be bananas and apples, if he failed to mention it.
Knives and clubs???
To face trained men with overwhelming firepower, this is what the miscreants in the flotilla came up with?
It was anything but a humanitarian mission?
What a statement...i would say it was painfully obvious from the "dangerous" weapons being used that it was just that...a humanitarian mission...
Even when defending their lives the people allegedly used only clubs and knives....what a pathetic state of affairs.
What sheer persistent nonsense which Israel comes up with to justify its absolutely disproportionate response to any and all actions carried out to help Palestinians...and the world still pretends to be upholding global values via the UN...a farce.

Since 2007, Gaza has been under siege.
Israel claims that it allows upto 15,000 Tonnes of supplies every week in the besieged area, whereas even the UN says that it is not even one fourth of the required supply to sustain any semblance of a normal life.

This policy of Israel will only create more hatred for Israel.
Maybe this suits Israel fine because they want to play the besieged card themselves and in turn manage to gain sympathy of the powers that helped create Israel in the first place.
Now Israel is no more surrounded by external hostile enemies as it was long time ago but still it is doing its utmost to crush Palestinians, literally.
The Siege of Gaza is the modern day rerun of the Jewish Holocaust of world war 2...the confinement, the limited supply of food coming in ...all reminds one of the start of the Holocaust...
We are supposed to learn so much from the barbarism that happened to Jews in world war 2, countless books, films etc. have solely dealt with the subject and deeply impacted the hearts and minds of the global audience throughout the century.

Denial of humanitarian aid to a non Israeli people is now considered Israeli states right within its own waters?
Does this not violate the most basic agenda of UN, clear agenda to ...the same agenda which global powers use as a stick to whip the bad boys and implement sanctions and even take military actions against.

I hope the USA changes its attitude towards this core issue.
The US should have sent a very strong message but it also shows only regret and hopes for a proper investigation, its another thing that whenever the UN security council decided to send a strong message to Israel or hold an inquiry, usually there was one country which was the only veto power barring the way...USA.
When USA itself has blocked many an investigative attempt into the actions of Israel, i see this only as another hypocrisy of USA to sound righteous despite being an accomplice in facilitating a sanction free environment for Israel by backing it up on every step of the way.

USA has to realize that if talks about justice and humanity then it cannot blindly support Israel while it does what it pleases, at least not anymore, not when Israel really has no external threat except what it will create if it continues its brutal tactics.
If USA has to blindly support Israel then it has to do it at a cost which will be the hatred of many in this world, who see this as a crime against humanity...the very humanity which USA usually seems to bring up in every military campaign it started in the last 2 decades.
Iraqis needed freedom from Saddam, Afghans needed freedom from Taliban...Palestinians need freedom from Israel as well...if only enough to get food and medicines!!!

I wish that President Obama declares that USA would step in and ensure that UN mandate is upheld under guard of his troops.
The purposed of US peacekeepers would be to assist UN and help the Palestinians in getting basic supplies and ensuring that the supplies being shipped in are not a threat to Israel but are non military items...unless ofcourse Israel treats healthy Palestinians as a threat to its security.
The world will really applaud such a stance taken by USA to help ease the suffering of the innocent without causing any threat to anyone.
It would be a very good remedy to improve the situation.

USA can win the hearts and minds of many countless people on earth by treating Israel Palestine conflict purely on merit, regardless of past allegiances.
The post world war 2 instability around Israel is practically non existent, Israel cannot keep on bulldozing Palestinians with such impunity in the name of survival...it has become far to strong to worry about survival and authorize any step that comes into its mind...it has to be made answerable to the world about what it is denying to the innocents.

I think Israel has done a very good job of lobbying itself in the western world, especially the USA. Many of the people associate Palestinians with militancy whereas Israel is supposed to be on the defense, the huge disparity between the Israeli military and Palestinian people ensures that Palestinians certainly cannot overrun Israel, still Israel is always seen on the defense.
There is an established pattern of painting Palestinians as militants who are after blood, without taking into account the fact that Palestinians are in fact under siege and Israel does not budge an inch from this imposing position which is tearing apart any remaining fabric of normal society in Palestine, what will the continued policy of land grabbing from the Palestinians and denial of basic humanitarian aid to the Palestinians lead to?
Will it not cause more hatred and venom to spread?
Will then this hatred not translate into violence, which will be called terrorism and be done with, whereas a state besieging a whole people and toying with their lives is just a regrettable incident.
What option does the average Palestinian have?

Those who have quickly started pointing out the Palestinian leadership as corrupt or inefficient are not looking at the bigger picture, this is a humanitarian crisis and is not about personal failings of leaders, do not just look at it from political angle.
Palestine is at Israel's mercy for even basic provisions of life and what a mercy it is!

Diverting the problem at hand by blaming Palestinians is a very shallow attempt to perhaps project oneself as self righteous instead of admitting the fact that Israel is right only because we (the people of this planet) cannot stop them from this continuous injustice of the highest order.

Such excuses have no real meaning when we see countless innocents isolated from the rest of the world and being denied basic assistance which the world is willing to provide...we are not asking Israel to supply the food...however it wants all those in Gaza to suffer and that is the true intent obvious from the unending siege of Gaza.

I condemn Israeli state for unleashing a similar policy of persecution which Hitler targeted the Jews with and was one of the main reasons that the state of Israel came into being
What lesson was learnt by the modern world here?
I hope the elders of Jews living in Israel see the similarity and prevail upon the state to stop this madness.

One of the main reasons for the creation of the UN was to ensure that such suffering does not happen in the modern world, failure take any action against the siege of Gaza really raises a question as to who will do anything about this humanitarian crisis...there is a limit beyond which even the sanest of men will resort to violence.
If conditions are made so desperate for the Palestinians then the reactions cannot be seen in isolation and judged as extremist or bloody actions not in the spirit of co existence.
Just because Israel is a strong nation, it does not mean that its atrocities be ignored and it not be reigned in, for the sake of all parties including itself.

The implications of this constant state of aggression towards all Palestinians shall be extremely serious, already much unrest in the world finds its roots in this conflict.
My fear is that it only gets worse, day by day...under watchful eyes.

I really do not want anyone to suffer here, however to drive the Palestinians to absolute desperation will evaporate any hope of Palestinians ever co existing with Israelis.
The hate will grow for Israel, it has gone far beyond the point where Israel projects its actions as desperate bid to survive...its policy borders or has already entered into a territory where it can be called a policy of state terrorism against a particular people to ensure they are either eliminated as a people or are made to run away from their homes.

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## Durrak

watch it


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## Ahmad

sparklingway said:


> My friends' two cents:-
> 
> I heard there was a president of a superpower and he had got a Peace Nobel prize too. Haven't seen him around.



the AIPAK and pro zionist congressmen will cut off his P*e*n*i*s and balls if he ever dare looking at the terrorist state with a wrong eye.


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## Jigs

TechLahore said:


> Don't you know, AM, that (hollywood) Ninjas frequently use disc shaped objects to decapitate people from a distance? These are not LPs or CDs, they are sharp, circular projectiles that can be launched at high velocity to silently and stealthily kill an armed man. Shame on you for not knowing the difference!!





TechLahore is right. These things are serious business (I know from watching the last samurai where ninjas attacked them.)


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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> Good argument? Glad to see the mods here don't do anything about it. But I won't stoop down to your level. Give me your argument and I'll respond to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Those "thugs" you call are there to protect their country from Terrorists.
> 
> Go read the back pages. You can see my arguments there already.
> 
> And have you heard "they (the civilians ) tried to strip these *'thugs'* off their protective gear and hit them"
> 
> @Since you did refer to my post. Answer that video. *Before the commandos ENTERED the boat*, the so called "civilians" pulled them in, mugged them and thew one off the boat.
> 
> Civilians?




Well that was the best you deserved, I did have second thoughts about it but since you are condoning the murder of innocent people in cold blood, in international waters, while they were being occupied by a bunch of pigs. I guess you are better left alone. Because it will do no one any good to talk to you, any ways how is your nose doing with all the brown stuff on it which you are proudly displaying to the whole world.


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## Vande Mataram

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Right, you illegally assault a ship with armed thugs (Israeli commandos) and don't expect the passengers to fight back?
> 
> 
> OMG, kitchen knives, tools and rods!
> 
> Oh wait, are those some LP's in the bottom left?





TechLahore said:


> Don't you know, AM, that (hollywood) Ninjas frequently use disc shaped objects to decapitate people from a distance? These are not LPs or CDs, they are sharp, circular projectiles that can be launched at high velocity to silently and stealthily kill an armed man. Shame on you for not knowing the difference!!



You are ******ing me man. You're a mod?

One gives sarcasm, another gives "personal attacks" and another blames Indians.


But this is all a sign that you can't argue properly with us. Why don't you bring in bollywood too?

Anyways, I believe RAW is connected with this attack. They hate all Muslims.


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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> You are ******ing me man. You're a mod?
> 
> One gives sarcasm, another gives "personal attacks" and another blames Indians.
> 
> 
> But this is all a sign that you can't argue properly with us. Why don't you bring in bollywood too?
> 
> Anyways, I believe RAW is connected with this attack. They hate all Muslims.




If you are so much in pain why dont u get the hell out, here I will also shed a tear on your departure.


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## Vande Mataram

khalidali said:


> Well that was the best you deserved, I did have second thoughts about it but since you are condoning the murder of innocent people in cold blood, in international waters, while they were being occupied by a bunch of pigs. I guess you are better left alone. Because it will do no one any good to talk to you, any ways how is your nose doing with all the brown stuff on it which you are proudly displaying to the whole world.



Listen. My argument is saying Israel is fighting for it's own protection.

What you're supporting is "We should kill 10 Israelis in revenge" and reason you justify is 10 Palestinians died. So 10 Israelis should die.

Feel free to post, but I won't be responding to your trolls again.



khalidali said:


> If you are so much in pain why dont u get the hell out, here I will also shed a tear on your departure.



You come here to troll in the middle and belittle people about their arguments yet I didn't see you post something reasonable in this thread that contributes to the facts or content.

Rant more.


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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> Listen. My argument is saying Israel is fighting for it's own protection.
> 
> What you're supporting is "We should kill 10 Israelis in revenge" and reason you justify is 10 Palestinians died. So 10 Israelis should die.
> 
> Feel free to post, but I won't be responding to your trolls again.
> 
> 
> 
> You come here to troll in the middle and belittle people about their arguments.
> I didn't see you post something reasonable in this thread that contributes to the facts or content.
> 
> Rant more.



First off little Missy I dont need ur permission to post, secondly when did I say 10 pews should die. Well technically some one should be punished. But at least I am not a retard like you who is sick enough to condone and defend the wrong done when these people were killed.


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## Usama86

Gordon Duff: Israel Scams U.S. Gaza Convoy Carrying Stolen Nukes
May 31, 2010 posted by Gordon Duff 
Share
*STOLEN NUKES, MISSING WMDS THAT CAUSED IRAQ WAR IN ISRAEL ALL ALONG
ISRAELI ROGUE NUKES USED TO JUSTFY GLOBAL CRIME SPREE*
By Gordon Duff STAFF WRITER/Senior Editor
In a long secret lost nuke scenario dating back to 1991 and involving Israel, South Africa, Britain, Oman and the U.S., Israel claims self defense in attacking ships in international waters today, killing 16. These secret nuclear weapons hijacked after shipment from South Africa have torn the world apart for nearly two decades. If you ever wondered why and what while watching the world tear itself apart, this is what was being kept from you, a lie within a lie.
Just after the humanitarian flotilla departed for Gaza, Israel informed the US and Britain that the convoy was ferrying stolen nuclear weapons that would be used for a terrorist attack on Israel. The stolen nukes have been in Israel for 18 years while the US has spent billions of dollars and thousands of lives looking for them. Today 16 more died.
Meanwhile, three Israels German built, nuclear armed submarines sit off Iran today, they believe covered by this same deception. This was also the rationale for other acts to isolate Palestinians including walling off hundreds of thousands in a virtual prison in Gaza, walls built and designed by the US Army Corps of Engineers, walls that America should have on its own southern border.

*MISSING NUKES CONFIRMED, STOLEN BY ISRAEL, NOT SADDAM*
The story involves real missing nuclear weapons. That has been confirmed. Built in South Africa by Israel, these 3 stolen nukes represent all that is left of the nuclear arsenal apartheid South Africa threatened the world with. Though the weapons may be technically missing, the massive undercurrent of secrecy and deception behind this global threat is pure fantasy, fantasy and nightmare. Hijacked from Oman in 1991, these are the nukes Israel said were shipped to Syria by Iraq to escape US forces advancing on Baghdad back in 2003. Israel knew they were never sold to Iraq, not unless Israel had done the selling themselves.
Israels fantasy about the transfer of these weapons to Syria by Saddam during the 2003 US invasion of Iraq was meant to push for an invasion of Syria under the guise of chasing WMDs. Israel informed the US that terrorists working with Syria were planning to move these nukes, again via ambulance, into Israel and were planning to set one of them off in Haifa. This lost nuke claim has been repeated by Israel numerous times over the years in varied scenarios, each more false than the last. Through back channels, Tel Aviv will again claim self defense as the rationale for this latest attack, an act of piracy against the humanitarian convoy heading to Gaza. 
It is also said that Israel has used the threat of these lost nukes to block inquiries into their possible role in 9/11.

*OH, THE WEBS WE WEAVE WHEN AT FIRST WE DECIDE TO DECEIVE*
The story is a long scenario of plots involving the murder of British weapons specialist David Kelly along with a number of legal inquiries and maneuvers in Britain to cover the tracks of what happened to these nukes, a cover up that continues to this day. A Bent Arrow nuclear blunder at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana was meant to provide cover for Israel by illegally shipping 6 cruise missile-mounted nukes to Diego Garcia while reporting them for demat disassembly. The moment those nukes were loaded onto a B-52, still attached to cruise missiles, America went rogue for Israel. Some lies can live forever.

*HOW IT ALL STARTED*
The claim that lost nukes are aboard the humanitarian flotilla that was just savaged off Gaza is part of a Mossad deception that started years ago. Part of the story was broken by The Guardian when this British paper released documents showing military cooperation between South Africa and Israel with Tel Aviv agreeing to provide nuclear weapons to Pretoria while South Africa was under sanctions for its apartheid policies. *By 1975, Israel had already built as many as 50 plutonium bombs at its Dimona reactor opened in 1962. In 1963, President Kennedy demanded they close what he called a weapons facility. He was murdered soon after. No other American president has mentioned Dimona since.*
Mordechai Vanunu, a scientist there, reported this in a British newspaper. His descriptions of processes were backed by leading nuclear weapon experts, U.S. and British nuclear weapons designers Theodore Taylor and Frank Barnaby. Vanunu was kidnapped in Rome and imprisoned in Israel, 11 of 18 years in solitary confinement and is still being held under gag order. You can be convicted there of treason for spreading rumors. Early on, Israel decided to turn their secret nuclear status into a profit making business, covered from nonproliferation sanctions by their special relationship with the United States. 
Few know this but officially South Africa built 6 nuclear weapons with the illegal aid of Israel. In fact Israel helped South Africa develop not only nuclear weapons but chemical and biological agents as well. Some of the germ warfare agents were used in Angola by SADF troops. Other weapons developed there, such as BZ hallucinogenic gas were sold to the US and used against the Iraqi Republican Guard. This was reported by the South African Truth Commission after the presentation of documents and scientific testimony backing the claim. Weapons resulting from this partnership were even sold to Libya and Iran.

*THE BIG SECRET, 10 BOMBS BUILT, NOT 6*
South Africa, really Israel, built 10 nukes, not the widely believed six. One was tested in the Indian Ocean by Israel and South Africa in September 1979. The test was spotted by US VELA satellites that identified the classic double flash of a nuclear weapons and was confirmed by acoustic sensors. The Carter administration covered this up as it was thought to be a danger to the Camp David peace accords that won for President Carter a Nobel Peace Prize.
This left 9 remaining nukes. Fearing control of nuclear weapons by Africans, the Whites Only South African government agreed to ship the 9 weapons to the US for disposal. Records of the UN inspection team exist along with the accords reached after inspecting the Pelindaba weapons facility in 1990. Just this month President Obama officially thanked the South African government for this act. However, three of the nukes were sidetracked by Britain, as we have been informed by high level sources. These three nukes are what everything is all about, certainly the Iraq invasion, the war on terror and the massive security measures, although catastrophically inept, taken by the United States. 

*BRITAIN STEPS IN* 
Britain agreed to help ship the bombs out, six to the US and three to Oman with the three to be sent to America for dismantling at a later date. To accomplish this, a commission led by David Cameron, current British Prime Minister, travelled to South Africa to make arrangements. However, as this was during the first gulf war, a plot was hatched, we are informed, by high level members of a British political party to buy three of the weapons and bleed off money to fund the 1992 elections out of a massive kickback. This would seem extremely conspiratorial had it not left a considerable trail, not only on paper but in wrecked careers, ongoing cover ups, Parliamentary inquiries, trials and endless deception from that day forward.

*BUYING THE BOMBS AND LOSING THEM DOWN A RABBIT HOLE*
We have been informed that former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher agreed to a UOR, Urgent Operational Request, a no bid contract to pay 55 million pounds sterling to transport three Israeli/South African nuclear weapons to British facilities in Oman to use as a guarantee that Saddam Hussein would not use chemical or biological weapons when attacked. The scheme, in itself, was senseless from the start as American forces in the Persian Gulf had significant special weapons capabilities as did British submarines on station. *The real reason for the move was to generate the contract, we are told, which paid nearly $30,000,000 into the campaign coffers of the man who would be the next British prime minister.*
Things went terribly wrong when the company contracted for this project, a seemingly reputable arms supplier, chose by accident we suppose, dodgy sucontractors for this most delicate task. The nuclear weapons were turned over to a group known to have been involved in moving weapons for Israel, some of them in the illicit arms scandal involving the United States known as Iran-Contra.
Thus, three nuclear weapons, in 20-foot shipping containers heading for Oman, and into the netherworld. When it was time for them to be sent to the United States, it was discovered they had been replaced with concrete blocks.

*WHERES WALDO, IS THAT A NUKE IN YOUR POCKET OR ARE YOU JUST GLAD TO SEE ME?*
We can only guess how much of the war on terror has been tied to a Whack-a-Mole effort to find these loose nukes. The same back channel rationale has been offered for numerous military actions and false flag operations that continue to provide cover for Israeli conduct. *Any time a problem comes on Israels radar, a call goes to Washington and reliable intelligence about the missing nukes suddenly appears. Most recently, the Israel reported that individuals in Gaza had shown up with fission burns, that could only be cause by direct contact with a nuclear weapon. *
Britain raided the offices of the company involved, seizing their records and froze the funds of those involved as did the US and the European Union, but it didnt stop there. Too many hands were in the pie for this to be allowed to get out. Britain has been running their own Wheres Waldo search while feeding misinformaton to the media.

*PEA SOUP IN WHITEHALL, BRITAIN TAKES A LOOK
*When Gordon Brown started the Iraq inquiry, the story of the missing nukes, well known in certain circles in Britain, started to come to the surface. MP Menzies Campbell began asking questions immediately when documents indicating existing nukes came to the surface related to Saddam after Gulf War I. Britain had planned for a contingency tied to nuclear attacks on their bases in Cyprus, attacks based on the possibility that Saddam was holding three missing Israeli/South African nukes that Britain had misplaced in transit years before.
The arms traders tied to the missing nukes and Israel were believed to have pumped millions into the British electoral process through intermediaries with even more millions to a different party years later. That different party: Tony Blairs New Labor Party.
Questions were asked regarding the mysterious law, The Nuclear Weapons Act, which would allow indefinite detention of any British citizen found tied to a nuclear explosion. More mysterious were covert attempts to modify that law with statutory limitations that would protect one British prime minister from potential prosecution. This modification was blocked by MI 5 Chief Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller who resigned rather than see nuclear criminals protected. We are told that a British prime minister left politics over complications from failing to act on an official briefing received on this issue in 1997. He has now joined the ranks of Bill Clinton, raking in millions on books and lectures.

*WHY, HOW AND THE FALLOUT*
*Where did the nukes really go? It is believed that Israel snatched the three nukes, 18kt uranium-235 weapons in order to manipulate the United States into supporting what has become decades of disastrous policies and to provide a rationale for making the U.S. look the other way when Israel is involved in unsavory acts including routine false flag operations as with the murder of humanitarians enroute to Gaza, the worlds largest open air prison. Everything is done under the guise of deception, even the most outrageous operations can be justified as part of ongoing search-and-recovery efforts for these imaginary lost nuclear weapons.
Was this the secret rationale for the invasion of Iraq? Israel then reported that the weapons were moved to Syria by three ambulances and were stored in a hospital in Lebanon to hide their nuclear particle signatures. America didnt buy it, our new sensors can tell X-Ray equipment from nukes. Thus the failure of Israels plan to provoke the US to attack Syria.*

*LOST NUKES AND ISRAELI PIRACY*
Now Netanyahu is telling the US that the nukes are in Turkey or Iran, or both, perhaps on ships heading to Gaza. Thus, any attack, no matter how many international laws are violated and no matter what is brought before the UN Security Council, will escape sanction by a US veto, further delegitimizing the United States due to its special relationship with Israel, the unbreakable bond sworn to by 444 members of congress.
America is even being urged to bomb nuclear facilities inside Iran to get at possible hiding places for these loose nukes. The weapons themselves, built by Israel and South Africa as part of a criminal partnership, even if in Iran, could be hidden anywhere. One of the least likely hiding places would be in a nuclear facility.

*KEEP SAYING ONLY 6 NUKES AND MAYBE PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE IT*
Sometimes a story can be told too many times with too much emphasis on just one issue: six nukes. The U.S. destroyed six nukes received from South Africa. Britain believes it adequately covered up its massive blunder and the corruption tied to it. We certainly cant ask David Kelly, one of those tasked with overseeing this project but who could no longer maintain his silence. He is now dead.
We must believe that covert weapons programs in South Africa ended even though, in 2004, Johann Meyer was arrested for attempting to ship centrifuges from South Africa to Libya that still contained plutonium residue.
*We can ignore the crimes related to nuclear proliferation and continue to point to Pakistan and Pakistani nuclear scientist A.Q. Khan when, in fact, his pardon by President Musharraf is now believed tied to his cooperation with CIA efforts to locate lost nukes that may no longer work in return for providing Pakistan new nuclear triggering devices*. Efforts were made to sabotage this covert effort in much the same way that Valerie Plames efforts ended with her exposure as a CIA employee though the public was not told she was working on these nuclear issues.
Lewis Scooter Libby (Liebowitz), Vice President Dick Cheneys Chief of Staff, outed Plame in retaliation for her husband, former Ambassador to Iraq Joe Wilson, exposing the phony intelligence claim that Iraq was buying yellowcake uranium from Niger. Libby was successfully prosecuted and then promptly pardoned by G.W. Bush after the intercession of AIPAC, the Israeli government and prominent Israeli-Americans, including Alan Dershowitz, Rom Kampeas of the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Nathan Sharansky, a former Likud Party leader under Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, and Arye Genger, presidential liaison for Israel. President Bush awarded Sharansky the nations highest honor: the medal of freedom.
The numbers dont really matter: 10 nukes, 9 nukes, 6 nukes or even 3 missing nukes. It could actually be only two missing nukes anyway as one of the weapons exploded by North Korea had the nuclear signature of the Israeli/South African weapons. Could this loose nukes scenario explain why a special country might not be willing to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty?
With friends like this, who needs enemies?

Gordon Duff: Israel Scams U.S. &#8220;Gaza Convoy Carrying Stolen Nukes&#8221; : Veterans Today


Gordon Duff is a Marine Vietnam veteran, grunt and 100% disabled vet. He has been a featured commentator on TV and radio including Al Jazeera and his articles have been carried by news services around the world. He has been a UN Diplomat, defense contractor and is a widely published expert on military and defense issues. He is active in the financial industry and is a specialist on global trade. Gordon Duff acts as political and economic advisor to a number of governments in Africa and the Middle East. Gordon Duff is currently working on economic development projects in Pakistan and Afghanistan to counter the effects of poverty and global extremism


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## Marxist

*Aid ship raid justified, Israel says*

GAZA, June 1 (UPI) -- An Israeli official said the country has no reason to apologize for its deadly raid on a flotilla of humanitarian aid bound for Gaza.

Speaking to Israeli supporters Israel Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said: "We do not need to apologize for defending ourselves. The armada of hate and violence is merely one manifestation of the constant provocation Israel faces."

Ayalon said the violence that greeted Israeli military supported Israel's decision, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a release.

Nine civilians, many of them Turks died. At least seven Israeli troops and about 50 civilians were injured.

Hundreds of activists aboard the convoy were being held by Israel Tuesday as news reports indicated a new attempt to bring supplies to the strip was under consideration, The New York Times reported.

Israeli military officials also said troops fought and killed two militants from Gaza.

The developments in Israel and Gaza came hours the U.N. Security Council condemned the Israeli operation Monday.

"The Security Council deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force during the Israeli military operation in international waters against the convoy sailing to Gaza," the U.N. statement said. The 15-member body "condemns those acts which resulted in the loss" of lives.

The Security Council called for the immediate release of the ships and the citizens held by Israel, as well as "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards."

Global leaders roundly criticized Israel for its operation and also called for investigations. Turkey recalled its ambassador and canceled planned military exercises. Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu canceled a Tuesday meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama.

In defending the raid, Netanyahu said commandos were attacked by passengers on the Turkish ship they boarded and fired in self-defense, the Times said.

Israel said pro-Palestinian activists initiated the violence. Organizers of the flotilla said Israeli forces opened fire as soon as they landed on the deck.

The flotilla of six cargo ships and passenger boats was carrying 10,000 tons of aid for Hamas-ruled Gaza, only to be greeted by Israel's blockade.

In the Israeli port of Ashdod, police questioned Sheik Raed Salah, leader of the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel, about his role in the clashes aboard the flotilla, Haaretz said. Knesset member Hanin Zoabi also was detained and questioned, but released Tuesday. Several other members remain in police custody.

The Higher Arab Monitoring Committee called for a general strike in Israel's Arab sector to protest the flotilla clash. Protests sprang up in several cities, sparked in part about rumors that Salah, who was a part of the flotilla, was injured, Haaretz said.

Aid ship raid justified, Israel says - UPI.com


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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> Listen. My argument is saying Israel is fighting for it's own protection.
> 
> What you're supporting is "We should kill 10 Israelis in revenge" and reason you justify is 10 Palestinians died. So 10 Israelis should die.
> 
> Feel free to post, but I won't be responding to your trolls again.
> 
> 
> 
> You come here to troll in the middle and belittle people about their arguments yet I didn't see you post something reasonable in this thread that contributes to the facts or content.
> 
> Rant more.



May be you should start reading from page one and you will see my contribution in it. Atleast I am not a troll which I am being accused of by one who is a sympathizer of the murderers.


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## Zillay_Khan

blackwater 007 said:


> Hahahah another chela of Zaid Hamid lollllllllllllllllllllllllllll



atleast zaid hameed tal;ks some sense, and the mans got metal i admire him for that , he not only has a good grounding of political awareness but i can tell you his islamic history is superb , the texts he qoutes , many of these barbie doll style molvis havent even heard of, from what i gathered from here so far , top marks mr hamid, indians just love to defame anyone who is patriotic towards Pakistan, just like genral Hamid gul . Another great man.

In summary what happend on the aid boats is this isreal has soemthing similar to military conscription , its a tiny place, and the youngsters are practically mad emust to serve a few terms in the army, they are panicked and crazed and scared as hell little iditots thats why when they panick the safety clip goes off, and they start shooting and then then isreali propganda machine tries to do the cover up, Im sure thats what happend here the cowards panicked, and just starting shooting and the knives wre just collected from the kicthen of the ship.


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## Comet

Any news about Talat Hussain and his team?


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## Aslan

*Robert Fisk: Western leaders are too cowardly to help save lives*
It is a fact that it is ordinary people, activists, call them what you will, who now take decisions to change events

Has Israel lost it? Can the Gaza War of 2008-09 (1,300 dead) and the Lebanon War of 2006 (1,006 dead) and all the other wars and now yesterday's killings mean that the world will no longer accept Israel's rule?

Don't hold your breath.

You only have to read the gutless White House statement  that the Obama administration was "working to understand the circumstances surrounding the tragedy". Not a single word of condemnation. And that's it. Nine dead. Just another statistic to add to the Middle East's toll.

But it's not.

In 1948, our politicians  the Americans and the British  staged an airlift into Berlin. A starving population (our enemies only three years before) were surrounded by a brutal army, the Russians, who had erected a fence around the city. The Berlin airlift was one of the great moments in the Cold War. Our soldiers and our airmen risked and gave their lives for these starving Germans.

Incredible, isn't it? In those days, our politicians took decisions; our leaders took decisions to save lives. Messrs Attlee and Truman knew that Berlin was important in moral and human as well as political terms.

And today? It was people  ordinary people, Europeans, Americans, Holocaust survivors  yes, for heaven's sake, survivors of the Nazis  who took the decision to go to Gaza because their politicians and their statesmen had failed them.

Where were our politicians yesterday? Well, we had the ridiculous Ban Ki-moon, the White House's pathetic statement, and dear Mr Blair's expression of "deep regret and shock at the tragic loss of life". Where was Mr Cameron? Where was Mr Clegg?

Back in 1948, they would have ignored the Palestinians, of course. It is, after all, a terrible irony that the Berlin airlift coincided with the destruction of Arab Palestine.

But it is a fact that it is ordinary people, activists, call them what you will, who now take decisions to change events. Our politicians are too spineless, too cowardly, to take decisions to save lives. Why is this? Why didn't we hear courageous words from Messrs Cameron and Clegg yesterday?

For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?) been gunned down by any other Middle Eastern army (which the Israeli army is, is it not?) there would have been waves of outrage.

And what does this say about Israel? Isn't Turkey a close ally of Israel? Is this what the Turks can expect? Now Israel's only ally in the Muslim world is saying this is a massacre  and Israel doesn't seem to care.


But then Israel didn't care when London and Canberra expelled Israeli diplomats after British and Australian passports were forged and then provided to the assassins of Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. It didn't care when it announced new Jewish settlements on occupied land in East Jerusalem while Joe Biden, the Vice-President of its erstwhile ally, the United States, was in town. Why should Israel care now?
How did we get to this point? Maybe because we all grew used to seeing the Israelis kill Arabs, maybe the Israelis grew used to killing Arabs. Now they kill Turks. Or Europeans. Something has changed in the Middle East these past 24 hours  and the Israelis (given their extraordinarily stupid political response to the slaughter) don't seem to have grasped what has happened. The world is tired of these outrages. Only the politicians are silent.

Diplomatic storms

*Goldstone report, November 2009

Israel launched Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 with the declared aim of halting rocket fire from Gaza into Israel. More than 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the three-week conflict along with 13 Israelis. The South African jurist Richard Goldstone's report into the conflict found both Israel and the Hamas movement that controls the Strip guilty of war crimes, but focused more on Israel. Israel refused to co-operate with Goldstone and described his report as distorted and biased.

* The al-Mabhouh assassination, January-May 2010

Britain and Australia expelled Israeli diplomats after concluding that Israel had forged British and Australian passports used by assassins to kill a Hamas commander in Dubai. Israel has neither confirmed or denied a role in the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in his hotel room in January. Britain said such misuse of British passports was "intolerable". Australia said it was not the behaviour of "a nation with whom we have had such a close, friendly and supportive relationship".

*Settlements row, March 2010

Israel announces plans, during visit by US Vice-President Joe Biden, to build 1,600 homes for Jews in an area of the West Bank annexed by Israel. The announcement triggers unusually harsh criticism from the United States. Washington said it damaged its efforts to revive the Middle East peace process. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the project was an insult. Netanyahu said he was blindsided by planning bureaucrats and apologised to Biden. Today's meeting with Barack Obama at the White House, called off by Mr Netanyahu so he could return home to deal with the flotilla crisis, was supposed to be another part of the fence-mending between the two allies.

*Nuclear secrecy, May 2010

Israel, widely assumed to have the Middle East's only nuclear arsenal, has faced renewed calls to sign a global treaty barring the spread of atomic weapons. Signatories of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) last week called for a conference in 2012 to discuss banning weapons of mass destruction throughout the Middle East. The declaration was adopted by all 189 parties to the NPT, including the US. It urged Israel to sign the NPT and put its nuclear facilities under UN safeguards.


Robert Fisk: Western leaders are too cowardly to help save lives - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent


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## Jigs

Vande Mataram said:


> Listen. My argument is saying Israel is fighting for it's own protection.
> 
> What you're supporting is "We should kill 10 Israelis in revenge" and reason you justify is 10 Palestinians died. So 10 Israelis should die.
> 
> Feel free to post, but I won't be responding to your trolls again.
> 
> 
> 
> You come here to troll in the middle and belittle people about their arguments yet I didn't see you post something reasonable in this thread that contributes to the facts or content.
> 
> Rant more.



If Israel fights to protect itself don't you think it is counterproductive to have turkey pissed at you along with half the world ?


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## Marxist

*Israel will continue to defend itself: envoy*

New Delhi: The UN Security Council on Tuesday called for an impartial inquiry into the Israeli commando raid on a flotilla of aid ships for Gaza, which left nine activists dead. Israeli disagreed, saying its soldiers had been &#8220;brutally attacked&#8221; and would continue to defend themselves.

Mark Sofer, Israel&#8217;s ambassador to India, told CNN-IBN's Editor-in-Chief Rajdeep Sardesai in an interview the flotilla was not a humanitarian mission and the &#8220;truth&#8221; about it is coming out.

&#8220;First of all any loss of life is tragic. This loss of life yesterday could have easily been avoided had the organisation that had been running it (flotilla) been a true humanitarian organisation dedicated to aid,&#8221; said Sofer about the Foundation For Human Rights And Freedoms And Humanitarian Relief (IHH or &#304;nsani Yard&#305;m Vakf&#305; in Turkish).

&#8220;It was not, it is not -- the IHH is a jihadist organisation with close ties to the al-Qaeda. We have and we will allow humanitarian aid to Gaza but not through violence of so-called aid organisation.&#8221;

Sofer was asked what Israel&#8217;s reaction would be if India or Iran crossed their boundaries and attacked their rivals they accused of terrorism.

&#8220;I think every country in the world has the right to defend its citizens against terrorism emanating from aboard. Certainly India has that right, and I think every country has to work to defend its own citizens,&#8221; he replied.

Sofer claimed Israeli soldiers didn&#8217;t use excessive force and instead reacted when they were attacked by the ship&#8217;s passengers.

&#8220;There were six ships and in five of them there was completely peaceful action. In this big ship there were no Nobel laureates at all but fighters from the IHH organisation who made it clear before setting sail to Israel that this was not a humanitarian aid towards Palestinians but just to end the blockade which was enforced when Hamas declared war on Israel.

Sofer said the international condemnation of Israel for the attack on the flotilla was unfair. &#8220;It is a little bit rich, sometimes, to hear international condemnation from countries like Iran, which just recently opened fire on some many of its own citizens, or Pakistan whose involvement in international terror is quite well known,&#8221; he said.

&#8220;We do feel that there was a tragic loss of life. It should never have happened and it wouldn't have happened had it been a true humanitarian aid flotilla.&#8221;

The ambassador denied his country followed an &#8220;eye-for-an &#8211;eyelash&#8221; security policy. &#8220;Absolutely not -- it is not even an eye for an eye. Israel finds itself at war through no wish of its own and then we take every measure to defend itself and we will continue to do so, but certainly the idea of the Israeli Defence Forces is not to use indiscriminate use of force. The case is absolutely opposite.&#8221;

He rejected allegations that the blockade of Gaza was illegal. &#8220;I am not going to accept that the blockade is against international law. The blockade is an outcome of international law. Hamas has declared war on us, so we are at war with them.&#8221;

Sofer said Israel didn&#8217;t want &#8220;antagonism&#8221; with Turkey and would prefer talks to sort out their differences. &#8220;We are interlocuting with all our friends, including India. The truth is coming out more and more even as we speak.&#8221;

Israel will continue to defend itself: envoy - World - ibnlive


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


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## Xeric

Vande Mataram said:


> So called "civilians":
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
> 
> What's REALLY on the ship: Part II:





Stupid _terrorists_, they instigated and then tried to counter the israeli commandos with knives, _ranch panas_ and hammers...

(Gosh! Where did all the AKs and RPGs of the black market - an perennial supply to terrorists all over the world - gone?)

May be they were trying to practice some Krav Maga with the commandos.

But oops, isnt Krav Maga was developed in Israel...?? Wondering

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## Marxist

*Egypt opens Gaza border after Israel ship clash *

GAZA, June 1 (Reuters) - Egypt opened its border with the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, letting Palestinians cross until further notice amid a storm of international criticism of Israel's blockade of the enclave, officials in Egypt and Gaza said.

The move, urged by the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas against whom the embargo has been directed, prompted dozens of people to race to the crossing point in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah, though the gates appeared still to be closed.

It is the only point on Gaza's borders that is not fully controlled by Israel. Cairo, coordinating with Israel, has opened it only sparingly since Hamas Islamists, who are allied to Egypt's opposition, seized control of Gaza three years ago.

A permanent opening of the crossing, which lies above a stretch of desert frontier riddled by hundreds of smuggling tunnels, would be a major boost for Hamas and a blow to efforts by Israel and its Western allies to cripple the Islamists.

The Interior Ministry run by Hamas since it seized control of the Gaza Strip from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in June 2007 said in a statement: "Rafah crossing is open every day from 9 a.m. (0600 GMT) to 7 p.m." Since Hamas took over, Egypt has opened the crossing only sporadically and with restrictions.

An Egyptian security source told Reuters: "Egypt opened its border with the Gaza Strip on Tuesday to allow humanitarian and medical aid to enter the Strip.

"The border will remain open for an unlimited time," the source said, letting Palestinians enter and leave Egypt.

Aid convoys, to which Egypt has in the past allowed only limited access, would be allowed to use the crossing, subject to following Cairo's limitation that only food and medical supplies be transported.

"Hard materials" -- apparently including concrete and steel which Gazans want to repair damage from last year's Israeli offensive -- would have to go via Israel, the Egyptian source said. Israel has made clear since it halted a Turkish-backed aid convoy at sea on Monday that it will not ease its embargo.

SHIP CRISIS

The deaths of nine activists when commandos stormed a Turkish ship in international waters have unleashed a storm of criticism of Israel. United Nations officials have demanded an end to the blockade, which has impoverished the 1.5 million people of the Gaza Strip. Israel's main ally the United States has been more cautious in its response to the incident.

Hamas official Ghazi Hammad, who is in charge of borders for the Islamist government in Gaza, said: "The Rafah situation is now back to what it was before June 2006."

He was referring to the month when Hamas and allied groups captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, who remains a captive in Gaza and whose fate has been at the centre of failed negotiations to ease the embargo imposed by Israel with Egyptian and international cooperation since then.

After Israel withdrew troop and settlers from Gaza in 2005, the European Union placed monitors at the Rafah crossing to reassure Israel that weapons would not reach Gaza from Egypt. That system of surveillance collapsed, and the blockade was tightened, when Hamas seized full control of Gaza in 2007.

Earlier on Tuesday, Hamas's Syrian-based leader Khaled Meshaal said: "We call on our brothers in Egypt to use this historic moment to open Rafah crossing. Egypt is able to do this and that would indeed be a real response to Israel's actions."

Cairo has tried unsuccessfully to broker a reconciliation between Hamas and Abbas's Fatah faction, as well as to mediate between Hamas and Israel. Hamas's links to Egypt's opposition Muslim Brotherhood has ensured its ties with Cairo are uneasy. (Additional reporting by Yusri Mohamed in Port Said, writing by Alastair Macdonald in Jerusalem) 

Reuters AlertNet - Egypt opens Gaza border after Israel ship clash

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## Xeric

Vande Mataram said:


> So called "civilians":
> YouTube- Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
> 
> What's REALLY on the ship: Part II:



And you know what, you place a Keffiyeh and some Green flag, especially the one that would have Kalima on it, and you get an Islamist-Jihadi-Terrorist, all in one.

Gosh! Why the Turbans are missing 

BTW, if that is Kalima on that green cloth, why would they place it on the floor to snap it?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Dr.Evil

xeric said:


> And you know what, you place a Keffiyeh and some Green flag, especially the one that would have Kalima on it, and you get an Islamist-Jihadi-Terrorist, all in one.
> 
> Gosh! Why the Turbans are missing
> 
> BTW, if that is Kalima on that green cloth, why would they place it on the floor to snap it?



*Could anyone tell me why the aid workers were carrying all the knives and sticks when their supposed mission was to deliver aid in gaza.*

I am in no way condoning the death of civilians on the ship.


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## FreekiN

First of all, it's a lie. Why? This flotilla was announced to the entire planet and you think they would risk carrying kitchen knives and poles to Gaza?

Yeah, they're gonna invade Israel with knives and poles. Might as well throw a chair at them while they are at it.


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## Bull

Most of you guys blindly hate Israelis, call for their blood, their lives and when the Israelis reciprocate in KIND, you say PEACE, RIGHTS.

Thats bullshit. 

You decided to fight and so shut up now and fight. period.


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## Aslan

Bull said:


> Most of you guys blindly hate Israelis, call for their blood, their lives and when the Israelis reciprocate in KIND, you say PEACE, RIGHTS.
> 
> Thats bullshit.
> 
> You decided to fight and so shut up now and fight. period.



So you are ok with what the pews have done this time.


----------



## Dr.Evil

FreekiN said:


> First of all, it's a lie. Why? This flotilla was announced to the entire planet and you think they would risk carrying kitchen knives and poles to Gaza?
> 
> Yeah, they're gonna invade Israel with knives and poles. Might as well throw a chair at them while they are at it.



If its a lie then how come the aid workers were picturised beating up Israeli soilders with sticks in the videos posted.

Do you mean to say they were morphed.


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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> If its a lie then how come the aid workers were picturised beating up Israeli soilders with sticks in the videos posted.
> 
> Do you mean to say they were morphed.



Well what else were they suppose to do, you sick humans who are defending the killing of aid workers. They were in international waters and their ship was attacked. And are israelies such fags that they cant even hold back a crowd armed with sticks, that they resorted to shooting at them.


----------



## FreekiN

Dr.Evil said:


> If its a lie then how come the aid workers were picturised beating up Israeli soilders with sticks in the videos posted.
> 
> Do you mean to say they were morphed.



Did anyone get stabbed? No.

There were Holocaust Survivors and a Nobel Peace prize winner on that boat.

Obviously, defence is their right. The Israeli elite forces stormed the boat with Automatic Weapons killing 9 people and injuring 30. Would you sit quiet with your hands crossed under those circumstances?

One Israeli gets thrown off the boat and then the killing starts.


----------



## Dr.Evil

FreekiN said:


> Did anyone get stabbed? No.
> 
> There were Holocaust Survivors and a Nobel Peace prize winner on that boat.
> 
> Obviously, defence is their right. The Israeli elite forces stormed the boat with Automatic Weapons killing 9 people and injuring 30. Would you sit quiet with your hands crossed under those circumstances?
> 
> One Israeli gets thrown off the boat and then the killing starts.



They were not going get much out of their so called defence against Israeli soilders, They could have peacefully surrendered and there would not have been any bloodshed.

Those Aid workers would have proven thier point of " Denial of aid to Gaza"

I think Organisers or some of the Aid workers were too Anti Israeli or Too Hot blooded that they had to resort to voilence.

*" I AM NOT SUPPORTING THE DEATH OF ANY CIVILIANS "* - This Msg. is for Mr. Khalidali, who thinks that putting across a different point of view, I am supporting the death of the people.


----------



## Comet

xeric said:


> *And you know what, you place a Keffiyeh and some Green flag, especially the one that would have Kalima on it, and you get an Islamist-Jihadi-Terrorist, all in one.*
> 
> Gosh! Why the Turbans are missing
> 
> BTW, if that is *Kalima on that green cloth*, why would they place it on the floor to snap it?



Yeah, I pointed out that but no one noticed.


----------



## Aslan

Israel holds 480 activists, expelling 48

JERUSALEM: Israel has detained 480 pro-Palestinian activists captured in its deadly commando raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla and will expel 48 others, public radio reported Tuesday.
Those detained were being held at the southern Israeli prison of Ashdod, while the other 48 were being taken to Ben Gurion international airport to be sent back to their home countries, said the report.

Israeli officials would question the detainees before deciding whether to free them or prosecute them.

Another 45 activists, most of them Turkish, were being treated in various hospitals.
At least nine people were killed during the Israeli operation to take control of the boats, most of them believed to be Turkish nationals.

Israeli navy commandos stormed a Gaza-bound aid boat Monday in a pre-dawn raid that has sparked global outrage.

But the Israeli Defence Forces has blamed activists on the ship for creating the confrontation by attacking its soldiers as they boarded the vessel.

The bloody end to the operation prompted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to cut short a visit to Canada and postpone a trip to Washington where he had been due to meet with US President Barack Obama Tuesday. AFP

DAWN.COM | World | Israel holds 480 activists, expelling 48


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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> *Could anyone tell me why the aid workers were carrying all the knives and sticks when their supposed mission was to deliver aid in gaza.*
> 
> I am in no way condoning the death of civilians on the ship.



Yeah, they wanted to invade Israel with use of these "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (for vegetables may be) and get rid of the whole Jew Population.


Get a life bro!

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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> *" I AM NOT SUPPORTING THE DEATH OF ANY CIVILIANS "* - This Msg. is Khalidali, who thinks that putting across a different point of view, I am supporting the death of the people.



Well what else are you doing, directly or indirectly if you are justifying the killings of the aid workers under the guises of what ever that dont make your comments neutral. There is no such thing as a neutral in this scenario. The whole world had witnessed the killings. Many voiced their opinions, and majority of them were opposed to what happened. Some indians here and there and the jews were giving explanations. And also there were some who didnt say any thing or came up with reasons. Now if you stay quiet or question the motives of the aid workers then you are simply saying israel its ok we are with you. And that is what you are doing. So try fooling some one else.


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## Dr.Evil

umairp said:


> Yeah, they wanted to invade Israel with use of these "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (for vegetables may be) and get rid of the whole Jew Population.
> 
> 
> Get a life bro!



*The Point is they could have surrendered peacefully and still would have made the point.*

This was totally unnecessary bloodshed and loss of life.


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## Aslan

Dr.Evil said:


> *The Point is they could have surrendered peacefully and still would have made the point.*
> 
> This was totally unnecessary bloodshed and loss of life.



Dude seriously, there is one thing that is called common sense. First of all please give me a good enough reason what should they have surrendered to the jews. Why?
Secondly specially why should they have surrendered in the international waters. Again Why??


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## Marxist

*Jordan offers to liaise in repatriation of Flotilla activists* 

Amman - The Jordanian government on Tuesday offered to liaise in the repatriation of hundreds of activists currently held by Israel after its deadly attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

At least seven countries - Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Oman, Morocco, Algeria and Pakistan - have so far asked Jordan to help return their nationals who were among around 600 people from 32 countries aboard the convoy of ships, Minister of State for Media Affairs Nabil Sharif said.

"The foreign ministry is coordinating with all countries with citizens arrested in Israel to ensure the evacuation of their nationals to Jordan, extend medical treatment to the wounded and arrange for their departure home," he added.

Sharif said that the government had received assurances that all 24 Jordanians aboard the flotilla were in good health.

Kuwait has 17 nationals, including 5 women, among the flotilla activists now detained in Israel.

In a retaliatory step against Israel, the Kuwaiti government on Tuesday supported a motion at the National Assembly to withdraw from the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, according to state-run Kuwaiti media.

The Saudi-authored Arab plan offers Israel recognition by all Arab states if it pulls out from all the Arab territories it occupied in the 1967 Middle East war, including East Jerusalem. 

Jordan offers to liaise in repatriation of Flotilla activists | Earth Times News


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## Dr.Evil

khalidali said:


> Dude seriously, there is one thing that is called common sense. First of all please give me a good enough reason what should they have surrendered to the jews. Why?
> Secondly specially why should they have surrendered in the international waters. Again Why??



Because of the same " Common Sense " of which you speak of.

Did those aid workers think they could repel all the soilders with their sticks and knives.

I think those Aid workers were not soilders or combat trained.

Even Military soilders would surrender because there would be no point in loosing life. You can always fight another day if you are alive.

The main objective of that Aid Mission was to highlight the plight of Gazans. This was supposed to be more symbolic.


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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> *The Point is they could have surrendered peacefully and still would have made the point.*
> 
> This was totally unnecessary bloodshed and loss of life.



I think we are going round and round in the circle. 

It has been said before and it looks odd to repeat the same again when it is evident that you won't understand. 

Let me give it another chance 

Israel shouldn't have started this in the first place by stopping this ship forcefully. It was in international waters when attacked.

Moreover, you really think that all the activist on the ship were stupid enough to fight against well armed commandos with knifes and rods?


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## T-Faz

Its funny how the video of them firing from the helicopter before boarding the ship has completely vanished. makes you think, doesn't it.


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## Jigs

*Turkish PM to meet top military, civilian officials over Israeli attack*


The Turkish prime minister will meet the army chief and some ministers in the aftermath of the Israeli attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

Tuesday, 01 June 2010 14:20

World Bulletin / News Desk

The Turkish prime minister will meet the army chief and some ministers in the aftermath of the Israeli attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

Earlier on Tuesday Erdogan said, "I wish our final decisions will be good for everyone." But he did not mention any decisions at parliamentary address.

However, Turkish media now questions what "final decisions" may be.

Turkey's Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan will meet Chief of General Staff Gen. Ilker Basbug and ministers who are the members of the National Security Council (MGK) later on Tuesday to discuss the Israeli attack on the aid convoy, Anadolu news agency said.

Deputy prime ministers, justice, national defense, interior and foreign ministers are the MGK-member ministers.

Erdogan will continue to hold talks with ministers, military and civilian executives also on Wednesday.

Israeli navy forces raided a convoy of aid ships of Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH) carrying humanitarian aid for Gaza, killing at least nine people and injuring 30 others.

Turkey strongly protested Israel and recalled its ambassador.


Turkish PM to meet top military, civilian officials over Israeli attack [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

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## Dr.Evil

umairp said:


> I think we are going round and round in the circle.
> 
> It has been said before and it looks odd to repeat the same again when it is evident that you won't understand.
> 
> Let me give it another chance
> 
> *Israel shouldn't have started this in the first place by stopping this ship forcefully. It was in international waters when attacked*.
> 
> Moreover, you really think that all the activist on the ship were stupid enough to fight against well armed commandos with knifes and rods?



Yes you are right and I agree with you aswell on the highlighted part.

What I am trying to emphasise is had the people in the ship surrendered peacefully there would not have been this much voilence and Loss of life.

Those Aid workers were supposed to Peace workers and their objective would have been met without the voilence.


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## Bull

khalidali said:


> So you are ok with what the pews have done this time.



Im not saying what they did was correct. 

Palestineans and Israelis hate each other , the whole world knows it. Then why is the whole world is going nuts on this violent.


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## Xeric

Dr.Evil said:


> *Could anyone tell me why the aid workers were carrying all the knives and sticks when their supposed mission was to deliver aid in gaza.*
> 
> I am in no way condoning the death of civilians on the ship.



Seriously, you first need to know the difference between a kitchen knife and the one used by some terrorists to slit throats. Until then, keep on sipping what you already are.


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## Xeric

Bull said:


> Im not saying what they did was correct.
> 
> Palestineans and Israelis hate each other , the whole world knows it. Then why is the whole world is going nuts on this violent.



And that would justify all the wrongs, right?

i mean, i hate someone and i can kill it. Freedom of Action, right?


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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> Yes you are right and I agree with you aswell on the highlighted part.
> 
> What I am trying to emphasise is had the people in the ship surrendered peacefully there would not have been this much voilence and Loss of life.
> 
> Those Aid workers were supposed to Peace workers and their objective would have been met without the voilence.



I don't understand. If you agree then why asking the opposite?


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## Dr.Evil

xeric said:


> Seriously, you first need to know the difference between a kitchen knife and the one used by some terrorists to slit throats. Until then, keep on sipping what you already are.



Do you mean to say - If someone stabs with a kitchen knife the person dont be hurt / die ?

There is clear evidence that Israeli soilders were beatenup with sticks and one of the soilders was thrown overboard.

*My only question is was the voilence necessary on the part of Aid workers and Peace Activists .*

This totally avoidable had they peacefully surrendered.


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## Comet

xeric said:


> And that would justify all the wrongs, right?
> 
> i mean, i hate someone and i can kill it. *Freedom of Action*, right?



Oh God.... What next after *Freedom of Action* ???!!!


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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> *My only question is was the voilence necessary on the Aid workers and Peace Activists part.*



None. You are missing the point. They were on the receiving end. 




Dr.Evil said:


> This totally avoidable had they peacefully surrendered.


And if they had. They would still be in Israel's illegal custody.


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## Dr.Evil

umairp said:


> None. You are missing the point. They were on the receiving end.
> 
> And if they had. They would still be in Israel's illegal custody.



They would have been Isreali custody and they would have been deported to their countires.

That would have been highlighted the plight of Gazans. The ships were also carrying plenty of media personalities, it would have received widespread publicity.


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## Rafael

Dr.Evil said:


> Do you mean to say - If someone stabs with a kitchen knife the person dont be hurt / die ?
> 
> There is clear evidence that Israeli soilders were beatenup with sticks and one of the soilders was thrown overboard.
> 
> *My only question is was the voilence necessary on the part of Aid workers and Peace Activists .*
> 
> This totally avoidable had they peacefully surrendered.




Seriously its pathetic to see some Indians trying to justify this brutal act only because they get Israeli high-tech goods!! You guys need to get a life!

To all Israeli apologists, Watch this video where Israelis were firing from their helicopters even before they tried to land their commandos on the ship.

YouTube - 'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack!

Every body from EU to US are condemning it but here some of our indian friends trying to justify it

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## Dr.Evil

raheel1 said:


> Seriously its pathetic to see some Indians trying to justify this brutal act only because they get Israeli high-tech goods!! You guys need to get a life!
> 
> To all Israeli apologists, Watch this video where Israelis were firing from their helicopters even before they tried to land their commandos on the ship.
> 
> YouTube - 'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack!



No need to use such language.

No one is justifying the loss of human life, I was only highlighting, how things could have been done differently.

You may or may not agree with me on that point, I have no problem.


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## Bull

xeric said:


> And that would justify all the wrongs, right?
> 
> i mean, i hate someone and i can kill it. Freedom of Action, right?



They have been doing that to each other for decades. Their hatred should be accepted by the world as their way of life.

Why get shocked when you can expect anything else from either parties.

They will kill each other with what ever they have got.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dr.Evil said:


> Do you mean to say - If someone stabs with a kitchen knife the person dont be hurt / die ?
> 
> There is clear evidence that Israeli soilders were beatenup with sticks and one of the soilders was thrown overboard.


Armed thugs illegally attacked the flotilla of boats carrying unarmed aid workers, journalists and aid - the passengers were within their rights to resist, as they would be if pirates had attacked the flotilla.


> *My only question is was the voilence necessary on the part of Aid workers and Peace Activists .*
> 
> This totally avoidable had they peacefully surrendered.


Why should they have surrendered to an illegal attack by armed thugs? Given Israels track record in killing unarmed civilians, I don't blame the passengers from resisting the illegal seizure of their boats and cargo and possibly suffering torture and death at the hands of the IDF.

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## Imran Khan

yaar wesy aik bat hai app is ke sath time waste ker rahy ho. ISRAEL AND INDIA TWO FACES OF A COIN

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Dr.Evil said:


> I was only highlighting, how things could have been done differently.



Things could have been done differently by Israel as well, your, and other Indians, focus on how 'things could have been done differently' by solely the aid workers indicates a 'blame the victim' mentality, presumably to excuse the atrocities committed by the Israelis.

The fact is that once the Israelis illegally fired on the boats and illegally boarded them with armed Commandos, they situation had already escalated and the passengers were probably terrified/angry and in self-defense mode.

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## MKI 30

Well it is a very sad incident. I do not support Israel for this. I mean how could you attack a boat which is carrying relief goods for the people, no matter from whichever country they come from. 
India should send relief goods to Gaza as a good gesture. I love Israel but i hate them for this. Why harm the innocents in between.

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## IBRIS

Here how it went down from the begining. For all who blindly accuse anyone from wrong doings, please watch the entire videos and thn take your stand.

1. Flotillas tried to overrun the Israeli naval blockade 
2. Israel wanted to search the ships 





but activists refused to stop the ships.
3. Israel heli-dropped the marines and the activists started to attack the marines 













4. So running out of option Israel retaliated and 10 plus activists ended up dead.

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## deckingraj

raheel1 said:


> Seriously its pathetic to see some Indians trying to justify this brutal act only because they get Israeli high-tech goods!! You guys need to get a life!
> 
> To all Israeli apologists, Watch this video where Israelis were firing from their helicopters even before they tried to land their commandos on the ship.
> 
> YouTube - 'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack!
> 
> Every body from EU to US are condemning it but here some of our indian friends trying to justify it





Imran Khan said:


> yaar wesy aik bat hai app is ke sath time waste ker rahy ho. ISRAEL AND INDIA TWO FACES OF A COIN




I am sorry but have you guys missed the GOI condemnation of Israel response to Aid workers???? Lets not attribute response of few Indians on this forum with entire country...Fair???

Having said it we all knew in advance that these Aid workers would be challenged because of the bloackade...I think world community should have shown the same support before this event and we might have saved few lives....






AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Things could have been done differently by Israel as well, your, and other Indians, focus on how 'things could have been done differently' by solely the aid workers indicates a 'blame the victim' mentality, presumably to excuse the atrocities committed by the Israelis.
> 
> The fact is that once the Israelis illegally fired on the boats and illegally boarded them with armed Commandos, they situation had already escalated and the passengers were probably terrified/angry and in self-defense mode.





AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Things could have been done differently by Israel as well, your, and other Indians, focus on how 'things could have been done differently' by solely the aid workers indicates a 'blame the victim' mentality, presumably to excuse the atrocities committed by the Israelis.
> 
> The fact is that once the Israelis illegally fired on the boats and illegally boarded them with armed Commandos, they situation had already escalated and the passengers were probably terrified/angry and in self-defense mode.



I agree with every aspect of you response..Let me make it very clear that i condemn this Israeli Action...The loss of lives is indeed condemnable and i would be nuts not to do it...I wish they should have handled this issue in a more sane manner then what they did...However i want to ask you one question...

- What do you mean by Illegal firing?? From Israeli POV this firing is not illegal...There is a bloackade and they warned the ship with AID well in advance which is they would be challenged if they fail to respect the so-called bloackade...

Now did they opened firing with intentions of teaching aid-worker a lesson or the whole episode got triggered by some Aid worker attacking soldiers because of fear/anger i do not know...All i know is that nobody would wait till someone actually stab him/her with a knife before shooting out possible threat....

In the end whatever be the reason i strongly condemn Isreali action and support GOI stance on it...


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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> They would have been Isreali custody and they would have been deported to their countires.
> 
> That would have been* highlighted the plight* of Gazans. The ships were also carrying plenty of media personalities, it would have received widespread publicity.



It wasn't about highlighting.
They people there need medicine and stuff. And they had to take it to the people.


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## khanz

I'm shocked to see how many indians are defending this you guys supporting israel are pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourselves israel attacked an AID ship in INTERNATIONAL waters killing dozens of innocent people they were mostly humanitarian workers ! 
what kind of country INTENTIONALLY attacks a RELIEF mission !!! you make me sick


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IBRIS said:


> Here how it went down from the begining. For all who blindly accuse anyone from wrong doings, please watch the entire videos and thn take your stand.
> 
> 1. Flotillas tried to overrun the Israeli naval blockade
> 2. Israel wanted to search the ships
> YouTube - Israeli Navy Addresses a Ship in the Flotilla and Offers it to Dock in the Ashdod Port
> but activists refused to stop the ships.


From Al jazeera's corrspondent on board one of the vessels:

_*Our correspondent said that a white surrender flag was raised from the ship and there was no live fire coming from the passengers.*

Before losing communication with our correspondent, a voice in Hebrew was clearly heard saying: "Everyone shut up".
*
Israeli intervention*

Earlier, the Israeli navy had contacted the captain of the Mavi Marmara, asking him to identify himself and say where the ship was headed.

Shortly after, two Israeli naval vessels had flanked the flotilla on either side, but at a distance.

*Organisers of the flotilla carrying 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid then diverted their ships and slowed down to avoid a confrontation during the night.

They also issued all passengers life jackets and asked them to remain below deck.
*
Al Jazeeras Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Jerusalem, said the Israeli action was surprising._

So Israeli propaganda about the ships 'ramming the IDF' or other nonsense is just that , lies and propaganda.



> 3. Israel heli-dropped the marines and the activists started to attack the marines
> YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers


First, you have a bunch of thugs illegally attacking and boarding aid vessels in international waters - the escalation was from the Israeli side, not from the aid-workers.


> YouTube - Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship
> YouTube - "Peace activists" stabbing IDF soldier
> 4. So running out of option Israel retaliated and 10 plus activists ended up dead.


Again, it is the IDF that escalated the situation by illegally attacking and boarding aid vessels carrying _'Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and several European legislators'_, along with tons of aid, in international waters. There is no evidence to suggest that the vessels were trying to 'ram' IDF boats or fired on them, which means that Israeli action to stop them in international waters and board them was illegal and an escalation.


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## IBRIS

umairp said:


> It wasn't about highlighting.
> They people there need medicine and stuff. And they had to take it to the people.



They were warned about the blockade in advance. They wanted to search the ships, so they can pass the blockade and continue there journey to Gaza. But as we all saw what was said by the Aid Ship's captain. He didn't respect the blockade and marines were ordered to search the ship.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

deckingraj said:


> - What do you mean by Illegal firing?? From Israeli POV this firing is not illegal...There is a bloackade and they warned the ship with AID well in advance which is they would be challenged if they fail to respect the so-called bloackade...


What gives Israel the right to set up a blockade in international waters and assault and board international aid vessels in international waters? Do they have UN sanction to do this?



> Now did they opened firing with intentions of teaching aid-worker a lesson or the whole episode got triggered by some Aid worker attacking soldiers because of fear/anger i do not know...All i know is that nobody would wait till someone actually stab him/her with a knife before shooting out possible threat....


They obviously boarded the aid vessels with armed soldiers to 'teach aid workers a lesson' in terms of not providing aid to suffering Gazans. And may I remind you that the exact argument you offered in defense of the IDF shooting down aid workers applies better, and first, in the case of the passengers on board the vessels, who would have seen the IDF assaulting and boarding the boats as the 'threat' and some of them acted 'before the IDF could shoot them dead and confiscate their boats and aid supplies'.


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## Jigs

Turkey sends jets to evacuate injured activists - Israel News, Ynetnews

*Turkey sends jets to evacuate injured activists*

Ynet learns two Turkish military jets landed at Ben Gurion Airport to transport activists injured in deadly takeover of Gaza-bound aid flotilla.


Turkey sent two military jets to evacuate the activists injured in the takeover of the Gaza-bound aid flotilla, Ynet learned on Tuesday. There are currently 37 activists being treated in Israeli hospitals. In total, 679 activists were detained, and dozens have already been deported.


The Turkish government did not take Turkish Airlines up on its offer to transport the injured, and decided to take full responsibility for bringing them home.

Next Step
Gaza flotilla activists to be deported / Roni Sofer
Vast majority of activists to leave Israel by week's end. Sixteen of those detained by Israel remain unidentified
Full Story


A Turkish military jet landed at the Haifa airport Tuesday afternoon. The airport's manager, Yossi Glassberg, told Ynet the jet contained 11 crew members and medical crew.


"They received fine treatment here, coffee, fax services. After consulting with their consulates, they took off for Ben Gurion Airport," he said. Glassberg added that another plane meant to land in Haifa instead went directly to Ben Gurion International Airport.


Six soldiers who were injured in the incident are still hospitalized at Rambam Medical Center in Haifa and the Chaim Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer, and their conditions are improving. Two soldiers are in moderate condition, and the rest are in light condition.


Meanwhile, 33 foreign nationals were still hospitalized on Tuesday - four of them in serious condition, and the rest in light to moderate condition. The foreign activists are receiving treatment in hospitals in Haifa, Tel Hashomer, Petah Tikva and Jerusalem.



Most of the inured activists are Turkish citizens, and the rest are citizens of Great Britain, Australia, Indonesia and the Palestinian Authority. Fifteen foreign activists were discharged from Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon, after being hospitalized there on Monday.


One of the hospitals reported that several of the patients refused to receive treatment.


Rambam hospital said the six foreigners it was treating were still under observation and could not be released.


Representatives of the Red Cross in Turkey landed in Israel on Tuesday to help transport the injured to their countries of origin.


Ali Arkul, one of the Turkish representatives said upon his arrival, "We are working with Magen David Adom in order to facilitate the transfer".


Dudi Abadi, a coordinator for Magen David Adom, met the Turkish representatives at the airport. "They arrived here in coordination with the Turkish embassy to check on the injured and look into the possibility of bringing some of them home."


Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan had harsh words of criticism for Israel on Tuesday, and, in a speech before the parliament in Ankara, urged Israel to immediately release the injured and detained activists.


"Now Israel has shown to all the world how well it knows how to kill," he said. "People were killed and badly wounded, some from shots, even when bound. How human is this? There is no other way of explaining this to the world. All states condemn it, but this is not enough, we need results. People around the world need to know that one day justice will be revealed. If Israel does not immediately free all the detainees and wounded, the rift in relations with it will widen."



Yoav Zitun, Meital Yasur Beit-Or, Ahiya Raved and Eli Senyor contributed to this report

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## T-Faz

Israel says it will use more force against any new flotilla.

'Next time we'll use more force'

Read the peaceful comments by some of the Israelis and their supporters.


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## gogbot




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## T-Faz

The ship was turned into a lake of blood.

'The ship turned into a lake of blood,' says activist on Gaza flotilla - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Imran Khan

I will say if turkey has balls for defend aid workers send them otherwisedon't let them go there. o was shocked when i read turkey now just talking only. its a shamefull movment for us turkey has a respect here and they losing it.


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## Xeric

Bull said:


> They have been doing that to each other for decades. Their hatred should be accepted by the world as their way of life.


Jungle Raj, perhaps?



> Why get shocked when you can expect anything else from either parties.


Jungle Raj for sure.

BTW, there were no terrorists (read Hamas) on those vessels. How do you exactly equate the both? Or may be aid workers in your definition are synonymous to terrorists?


> They will kill each other with what ever they have got.



Flawed, ill-calculated and misunderstood perceptive.

Never knew that journalists and citizens of a NATO country would _kill each other with what ever they have got._


----------



## IBRIS

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> They also issued all passengers life jackets and asked them to remain below deck.


Then what were they doing above the deck?.


> Al Jazeera&#8217;s Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Jerusalem, said the Israeli action was surprising.


Nothing was surpring, they knew it was a naval blockade in advance. As we heard before in the video. It does not matter who is right and who is wrong. What matters is that a navy was there blockading. It' not like cop car chase where you have to keep chasing it.


> So Israeli propaganda about the ships 'ramming the IDF' or other nonsense is just that , lies and propaganda.


 I'm not disputing that. but i haven't seen ant attempt by Isrelis to ramp the Aid ship. So, aljazerra might be the one with propaganda in mind.



> First, you have a bunch of thugs illegally attacking and boarding aid vessels in international waters - the escalation was from the Israeli side, not from the aid-workers.
> 
> Again, it is the IDF that escalated the situation by illegally attacking and boarding aid vessels carrying _'Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and several European legislators'_, along with tons of aid, in international waters. There is no evidence to suggest that the vessels were trying to 'ram' IDF boats or fired on them, which means that Israeli action to stop them in international waters and board them was illegal and an escalation.


Like i said before it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. When a Navy blockade anyone's port. they are the one who are running that port now. Yes, it is an accupation. It's illigal but when a force is policing the area you better respect his authority or face the consiquences. Thats how the world work and that the way it is. All they had to do was go through a search and continue there journey to GAZA.


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## Ahmad

T-Faz said:


> Its funny how the video of them firing from the helicopter before boarding the ship has completely vanished. makes you think, doesn't it.



how did you know about it? please post if you know about any videos.


----------



## T-Faz

Ahmad said:


> how did you know about it? please post if you know about any videos.



Cant find them anymore, the link I had given before has another video on it now, some people saw that video too and thanked me.


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## Comet

IBRIS said:


> They were warned about the blockade in advance. They wanted to search the ships, so they can pass the blockade and continue there journey to Gaza. But as we all saw what was said by the Aid Ship's captain. He didn't respect the blockade and marines were ordered to search the ship.



Yup, as I said we are moving in circles. 

You guys are coming up with same "lame" arguments again and again.

Don't you feel any thing about the people who died? they had families... show some respect before defending Israel.


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## Zillay_Khan

Bloody ****** indians , im sorry i just hate them , for there torture and mas smurder of kashmiries, for all thos innocent sould that were bucthered on trains by the coward hindu mobs and trains, do you expect these fools to reason forget about it, God willing every drop of blood will be acounted for I agree one hundred percent with zaid hamid sahib on such issues


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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> No need to use such language.
> 
> *No one is justifying the loss of human life, I was only highlighting, how things could have been done differently.*
> 
> You may or may not agree with me on that point, I have no problem.



My quetion is: how things could have turned differently if the israeli pirates hadnt attacked that ship in international waters?

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## gogbot

To be fair i am only supporting the IDF , in saying that those activists were far from peaceful , there were elements that were not peaceful and provocative.

But regarding the Gaza issue as a whole , i agree , that something needs to be done regarding the blockade , 

But what happened on that boat is being politicized far to much


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## IBRIS

umairp said:


> Yup, as I said we are moving in circles.
> 
> You guys are coming up with same "lame" arguments again and again.
> 
> Don't you feel any thing about the people who died? they had families... show some respect before defending Israel.



I have no clue how you even came up with the thought about me not having any sympathy for the victims but i'm not blind my friend. I appose Israeli occupation. But reality is reality those aid workers did push the envelope by attacking the israeli soldiers. you cannot blindly accuse the Israeli's alone for this esclation. Aid workers on the deck took the matters into there own hands instead of doing simple things to avoid all this.


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## IBRIS

Zillay_Khan said:


> Bloody ****** indians , im sorry i just hate them , for there torture and mas smurder of kashmiries, for all thos innocent sould that were bucthered on trains by the coward hindu mobs and trains, do you expect these fools to reason forget about it, God willing every drop of blood will be acounted for I agree one hundred percent with zaid hamid sahib on such issues




You whine like a girl dude. get a grip over yourself.

GOD has given you everything from brain, leg's, arms, and a mouth which you just demonstrated in your post of venomous hatred. God has given you everything now put it good use instead of thinking with your mouth, think with your brain.


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## Kompromat

IBRIS said:


> You whine like a girl dude. get a grip over yourself.



It seems he hit a nerve of yours


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## Ahmad

T-Faz said:


> Cant find them anymore, the link I had given before has another video on it now, some people saw that video too and thanked me.



if that was a press tv one, i couldn see it.


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## Comet

IBRIS said:


> I have no clue how you even came up with the thought about me not having any sympathy for the victims but i'm not blind my friend. I appose Israeli occupation. But reality is reality those aid workers did push the envelope by attacking the israeli soldiers. you cannot blindly accuse the Israeli's alone for this esclation. Aid workers on the deck took the matters into there own hands instead of doing simple things to avoid all this.



If you go through the thread you'll notice that the same arguments have been put forth again and again. 

The fact of the matter is that Israel has no jurisdiction in international waters. There act can be categorized as a terrorist act. The people on the ship wouldn't have done any thing if Israeli Commando haven't stormed it in the first place.


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## hal-fgfa

Zillay_Khan said:


> Bloody ****** indians , im sorry i just hate them , for there torture and mas smurder of kashmiries, for all thos innocent sould that were bucthered on trains by the coward hindu mobs and trains, do you expect these fools to reason forget about it, God willing every drop of blood will be acounted for I agree one hundred percent with zaid hamid sahib on such issues



Bloody ****** pakistany, i dont want to say sorry for that, for supporting terrorism those kill innocents not only in indin ... now they become thread for whole world and some innocent muslims have to suffer because of that act . that we saw in NY bomb plot . i wish they got some mind and leave that path like *zaid hamid*


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## Zillay_Khan

thats video is satelliete view and zionists are masters and well known for distorting true facts and then they love playing the victim card , its pathetic, and if teh aid workers attacked them and kicked teh crap out of them good wicked well doen does that mean u idiots start firing at them unarmed people shows the true worth of the idf forces bunch of cowards.

The aid workers were in international waters not ISREALI, thats is one the bloody zionist pigs had no right whatsoever to intercept them, and watch isreali soldiers anywhere they big headed biggotted pigs that are arogant and htink they can treat people like anything, if even two aid workers had firearams on that boat those zionists wud have been food for the sharks now. 

A sceret I would like to reveal the reason india has Now shared her bed once again with another nation , this time it is isreal, beacus they have common agendas, just like Isreal is supressing land of the palestinians and trying to defame a legitimate freedom struggle, Indias has been doing the same thing in Occupied kashmir, opressing and killing people including hindu pundits and then blame it on mujahideen ( kashmir nationals). Just like the people of palestine arnt allowed fair elections and when they once were they elected hamas, which the international community didnt rcongnise beacuse it didnt serve there interest so there hypocrisiy was disclosed. Thats why india wont allow such a democratic election in ocupied kashmir as it would open and break the myth.


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## IBRIS

Black Blood said:


> It seems he hit a nerve of yours


rarely, he ain't capable enough of that. Read his post and see how he whine. no seriously


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## Zillay_Khan

hal-fgfa said:


> Bloody ****** pakistany, i dont want to say sorry for that, for supporting terrorism those kill innocents not only in indin ... now they become thread for whole world and some innocent muslims have to suffer because of that act . that we saw in NY bomb plot . i wish they got some mind and leave that path like *zaid hamid*



who supports terrorism your the biggets state sponsors of it, the Ny plot theer is no eveidence whatsoever ebverythign was circumstanial, and for your information the man was a american citizen, We have never condoned such gastly acts neither has zaid hamid, but you people your sick gorvenrmnet stands by as places of worship are demolished and sick disgusting little 2ft indians with ornage dresses are allowed willy nilly by teh police to go and rape and murder people in open riots , no other nation has had such animal acts , but the affliation with animal behaviour is well known.


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## Kompromat

All right all video posters : What is the Proof that the videos are not Fabricated ???

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## hal-fgfa

Zillay_Khan said:


> who supports terrorism your the biggets state sponsors of it, the Ny plot theer is no eveidence whatsoever ebverythign was circumstanial, and for your information the man was a american citizen, We have never condoned such gastly acts neither has zaid hamid, but you people your sick gorvenrmnet stands by as places of worship are demolished and sick disgusting little 2ft indians with ornage dresses are allowed willy nilly by teh police to go and rape and murder people in open riots , no other nation has had such animal acts , but the affliation with animal behaviour is well known.



*Two admit role in NY bomb plot *

Two men arrested in Pakistan over the failed Times Square bombing plot have confessed to taking part - and accused interrogators of "siding with the infidels".

The pair are among six detained over links to Faisal Shahzad, a Pakistani-American arrested in America two days after the May 1 attack in New York.

Five were picked up in the capital, Islamabad. One is co-owner of a catering company the US Embassy said is suspected of ties to terrorist groups.

Shahzad, 30, is accused of attempting to blow up a 4x4 packed with crude explosives parked in Times Square.

The bomb did not detonate but the evacuation caused huge disruption.
Two admit role in NY bomb plot from 23 May 2010 - mirror.co.uk

do u need pakistany source ...


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## Rebell

It is a clear visibility of Double Standards. Condeming something is equal to doing nothing. Particularly in this case, where it is obvious that it is an illegitimate act, an act of the Rest of the world is crucial. 
It is pretty sure that nothing will happen, therefore everybody got to say that the people who are fighting against oppression in a country west of Pakistan are doing more than the arrogant Arabs.


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## Kompromat

*World turns on 'aggressor' Israel over deadly sea battle .*
By Malcolm Farr From:The Daily Telegraph June 02, 2010 12:00AM


*AUSTRALIA yesterday joined a chorus of condemnation against Israel, demanding a "credible and transparent" investigation of the deadly sea battle between commandos and blockade runners carrying aid to Gaza. 
*
About 4000 protesters - led by Sheik Taj el-Dene Elhilaly and including schoolgirls as young as seven - gathered at Sydney's Town Hall before marching through the CBD last night calling for a boycott of Israel and decisive action by world leaders.

In scenes that mirrored cities around the world, chants of "Israel is a terrorist state" and "free Palestine" rang out as the Sydney protesters condemned Monday's raid that ended with at least 10 pro-Palestinian activists dead, 480 people detained and 48 immediately expelled.

Among those detained were four Australians, including Fairfax journalists Paul McGeough and Kate Geraghty, while a fifth Australian, Annette Young, 20, remained in an Israeli hospital after being shot in the leg.

"This is a terrible and shocking incident," Foreign Minister Stephen Smith told Parliament yesterday of the raid in international waters.

The UN Security Council yesterday called for an impartial inquiry and the release of all civilians, while US President Barack Obama expressed "deep regret" and postponed talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd called for the lifting of the blockade, which prevents supplies from reaching Palestinians in Gaza.

"The Australian Government condemns any use of violence under the sorts of circumstances that we have seen. Furthermore, we are deeply concerned about the loss of life which has occurred," he said.

"The people of Gaza ... should be provided with humanitarian assistance."

The deaths came as commandos boarded the Turkish ship Marmara, one of six boats trying to break through to the Gaza Strip.

Activists and the Israeli Defence Force released video of the assault on the Marmara, with the IDF footage showing commandos being assaulted with bars and chairs before opening fire.

Reporter McGeough and photographer Geraghty were on board a smaller boat, the MV Samoud, which was not part of the violence. Two unnamed Australian women were being held at a detention centre.

Israel challenged the claim that the raided ships were only carrying humanitarian aid and accused flotilla organisers of also carrying arms.

World turns on &#039;aggressor&#039; Israel over deadly sea battle | The Daily Telegraph


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## IBRIS

Black Blood said:


> All right all video posters : What is the Proof that the videos are not Fabricated ???


Where is the evidence of them being fabricated. My thoughts exactly


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## Zillay_Khan

is you head full of animal crap or soemthing , thats a inidvidual person and hsi doing how do you add teh pakistani flavour to it but what i said is condemned by teh international community of india allowing state sponsored terorr against its own citizens giving hindu bigots the licence to kill right from the partition to the gujrat riots which later indian sources revaled that the people who sat teh train to fire were infact hindus themselves. Thats a diffrence when a large segment of society support such acts aided by governement and individual cases by lone rangers. And teh lane ranger didnt even carry it out whererease you guys have dispicable disgusting animal record of death of kashmiris and raping of women 2ft bas*****


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## Kompromat

IBRIS said:


> Where is the evidence of them being fabricated. My thoughts exactly



That is a CCTV footage you moron.

And the Footage does not matter much as the people have been killed and injured it speaks for itself.


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## Rebell

IBRIS said:


> Where is the evidence of them being fabricated. My thoughts exactly



Throwing back an argument which was used against you is not a counter-argument. It is the Israeli side which should come up with good
arguments as this act was illegal in its accomplishment


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## Owais

*Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza*

- 8 hours ago - talkingskull.com
In a late-breaking development, Turkey has announced that they will send more ships to aid Gaza, and that this time they'll be accompanied by the Turkish Navy. This is a provocative and dangerous move, and one that is sure to raise tensions in the region.

Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza - Care2 News Network

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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IBRIS said:


> Then what were they doing above the deck?.


Defending themselves once the Israeli assault was imminent?


> Nothing was surpring, they knew it was a naval blockade in advance. As we heard before in the video. It does not matter who is right and who is wrong. What matters is that a navy was there blockading. It' not like cop car chase where you have to keep chasing it.
> I'm not disputing that. but i haven't seen ant attempt by Isrelis to ramp the Aid ship. So, aljazerra might be the one with propaganda in mind.



Of course it matters who was 'right or wrong'. The Israelis have no right to impose a naval blockade in international waters, and their is disagreement over whether they can even legally impose a naval blockade on Gaza, in Palestinian waters, since Gaza is not considered Israeli territory.

I did not say Al Jazeera referred to 'ram ships', my reference to 'ram IDF ships' was to point out that there was no aggressive action taken by the flotilla against the IDF, so there was no justification to attack and board the flotilla in international waters by the IDF.


> Like i said before it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. When a Navy blockade anyone's port. they are the one who are running that port now. Yes, it is an accupation. It's illigal but when a force is policing the area you better respect his authority or face the consiquences. Thats how the world work and that the way it is. All they had to do was go through a search and continue there journey to GAZA.


Right or wrong does matter - since the IDF was/is illegally blockading international waters and also perhaps illegally blockading Palestinian waters and preventing aid supplies to a suffering population, aid workers and activists are within their rights to peacefully try and deliver aid to a suffering population. It is Israel that is inflaming violence through an illegal blockade and then illegally assaulting and boarding aid vessels.

The passengers were merely defending the illegal assault and boarding of their vessel by armed IDF thugs.

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## rameez ahmed

Owais said:


> *Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza*
> 
> - 8 hours ago - talkingskull.com
> In a late-breaking development, Turkey has announced that they will send more ships to aid Gaza, and that this time they'll be accompanied by the Turkish Navy. This is a provocative and dangerous move, and one that is sure to raise tensions in the region.
> 
> Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza - Care2 News Network



there is a limit to every thing and i Think this time Israel have gone very far... The people who are coming with aid should be supported by Turkish navy.. the People bringing aid to Palestinians have no Bad intentions .. 

Turkey is right to take this action.. Otherwise Israel will keep on doing its terrorism openly ... I know it will make situation more worse but this is the right move to pressurize Israeli terrorists...


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Owais said:


> *Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza*
> 
> - 8 hours ago - talkingskull.com
> In a late-breaking development, Turkey has announced that they will send more ships to aid Gaza, and that this time they'll be accompanied by the Turkish Navy. This is a provocative and dangerous move, and one that is sure to raise tensions in the region.
> 
> Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza - Care2 News Network



I hope they carry it through. 

I would support other Muslim and European nations also acting in support of this and sending one or two Navy ships to escort aid ships to Gaza.


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## alibaz

IBRIS said:


> Where is the evidence of them being fabricated. My thoughts exactly



Have you forgotten the recent killing of Hamas Leader in Dubai by Israeli agents using forged passports. Why can't they do it again.


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## Kompromat

*Update*


----------



## Rebell

USrael could easily be counter-attacked




A Map of the Islamic World

Now tell me how many Countries are united in such a case....sadly no one really


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## Kompromat

Owais said:


> *Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza*
> 
> - 8 hours ago - talkingskull.com
> In a late-breaking development, Turkey has announced that they will send more ships to aid Gaza, and that this time they'll be accompanied by the Turkish Navy. This is a provocative and dangerous move, and one that is sure to raise tensions in the region.
> 
> Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza - Care2 News Network



Great move , i think Turkish navy should escort the ships to International waters close to the waters under control by zonist regime.

By having done that Turkey would be sending one hell of a strong message without giving any chance to Zionists.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

IBRIS said:


> Where is the evidence of them being fabricated. My thoughts exactly



The videos are provided by the IDF in support of an obvious illegal blockade and boarding of aid carrying vessels that also had peace activists, EU legislators and journalists from multiple nations on board, that resulted in a dozen or so innocent people dying.

The veracity of Israeli produced and disseminated material will obviously be called into question. But in any case, none of the videos excuse nor explain the Israeli decision to implement an illegal blockade in international waters nor in Palestinian waters, nor do they explain the Israeli decision to illegally assault and board aid vessels with armed thugs that sparked off violence by passengers in self-defence.

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## Owais

Rebell said:


> USrael could easily be counter-attacked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Map of the Islamic World
> 
> Now tell me how many Countries are united in such a case....sadly no one really



Forget that any arab country will take action against israel, they are totally Hijacked by US governments. only few countries can take a bold step to send their navy with aid cargo. these nations are Turkey, Iran and to some extent, pakistan


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## BATMAN

In any case i see no justification of opening indiscriminate fire at unarmed aid workers.


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## Ahmad

The problem is, this is not the first time the israelis are acting like barbarians, they have always done and will do so in the future with the help of americans.

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## shining eyes

SEE THIS BLOODY TERRORIST STATE


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## Comet

Rebell said:


> USrael could easily be counter-attacked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Map of the Islamic World
> 
> Now tell me how many Countries are united in such a case....sadly no one really



Oh Man. Israel is like a slap on faces of all the Muslims states. Its right in the middle of the Muslim World and it getting away with every wrong doing.

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## Kompromat




----------



## Owais

*Five Palestinians killed by Israeli fire in Gaza violence*

GAZA CITY: Five Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire in Gaza on Tuesday as militants launched rockets and a rare cross-border raid after a deadly Israeli assault on an aid convoy.

Three of the five were killed by an Israeli strike in the north of the Hamas-run territory, according to Muawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza emergency services.

The Israeli military said it had carried out an air strike in the area about an hour after two rockets were fired from Gaza. There were no reports of any casualties or damage from the makeshift projectiles.

Israeli troops had earlier shot dead two Palestinian gunmen who had snuck across the border in the southern part of the territory, according to a military spokeswoman.

There was an exchange of fire in which they were killed, she said, adding that no Israelis were wounded.

Witnesses on the Gaza side of the border said the exchange of fire was followed by Israeli shelling, and an AFP photographer saw an Israeli helicopter firing missiles.

There was no immediate report of casualties from the Palestinian side as ambulances were not able to enter the area.

The Palestinian group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack, which came after a similar raid less than two weeks ago in which two teenagers were shot dead after breaching the border fence in the same area.

Gazas Hamas rulers have tried to preserve calm since the end of Israels devastating assault on the strip in January 2009, but smaller militant groups still occasionally fire rockets and trade fire with Israeli troops.

It was unclear if the latest attacks were linked to Mondays Israeli maritime raid on an International aid convoy bound for Gaza in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed.

DAWN.COM | World | Five Palestinians killed by Israeli fire in Gaza violence


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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat




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## Ahmad

please open this link below and watch the video as i couldnt post the video directly.

US Middle East policy in spotlight - americas - Al Jazeera English


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## Ahmad

Black Blood said:


> Indian Trollers have vanished !



dont worry they will come back, but to be fair not all of them supported the terrorists, i could see alot of indian members who were fairly analyzing the situation.


----------



## BATMAN

Ahmad said:


> The problem is, this is not the first time the israelis are acting like barbarians, they have always done and will do so in the future with the help of americans.



Dude, this one was against American will... hence the support is out of question or at least you need to prove!


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## prodevelopment

Rebell said:


> USrael could easily be counter-attacked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Map of the Islamic World
> 
> Now tell me how many Countries are united in such a case....sadly no one really





When did Sri Lanka become a part of the Islamic World?



@ current situation: 1 word. Explosive. Lets see what happens.


----------



## Marxist

Owais said:


> *Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza*
> 
> - 8 hours ago - talkingskull.com
> In a late-breaking development, Turkey has announced that they will send more ships to aid Gaza, and that this time they'll be accompanied by the Turkish Navy. This is a provocative and dangerous move, and one that is sure to raise tensions in the region.
> 
> Turkish Navy to Escort More Ships to Gaza - Care2 News Network



Will these Turkish ships enter Israeli waters?


----------



## Ahmad

BATMAN said:


> Dude, this one was against American will... hence the support is out of question or at least you need to prove!



do you mean the zionist lobby somehow controls american economy and foreign policy due to their huge power and ifluence? if you mean so then yes, i agree with you for the first tiem.


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## prodevelopment

Marxist said:


> Will these Turkish ships enter Israeli waters?



I don't think they will. They'll most probably stay out there for an extended period of time before heading back home.

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## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> Will these Turkish ships enter Israeli waters?



doent matter, international water, israeli water or palestine water, they will still get attacked and the terrorits(zionists) will still walk free. but hope they will think twice before they attack, as it belongs to turkish government.

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## Bull

xeric said:


> BTW, there were no terrorists (read Hamas) on those vessels. How do you exactly equate the both? Or may be aid workers in your definition are synonymous to terrorists?


Well who said its only terrorists and soldiers who die in Israel and palestine ? So many civilians have died before and will continue to die.



xeric said:


> Never knew that journalists and citizens of a NATO country would _kill each other with what ever they have got._



They werent representing a NATO country, but were just NATA nationals acting against the will of Israel and was dealt with.

Turkey should learn to advice its nationals. Atleast that would prevent such an situation. What did turkey think when they knew their civilian were trying to break the Israel's Embargo. The righting was on the wall.


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## Al-zakir

Unfair and Unjust cowardly act by Zionist yet so called Guardian of the world won't do iota about this whole episode. Zionist will get away in the name of saving zionist sate as a form of self defence. 

This zionist state is based on day time terrorist act thus how can we expect anything less from anti human zionist scums.


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## Al-zakir

Ahmad said:


> doent matter, international water, israeli water or palestine water, they will still get attacked and the terrorits(zionists) will still walk free. but hope they will think twice before they attack, as it belongs to turkish government.



Turkey can prove it's love of Palestine and Islamic world by breaking off diplomatic relation with the terrorist. So far turkey has been sailing against Islamic world.


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## Marxist

Ahmad said:


> doent matter, international water, israeli water or palestine water, they will still get attacked and the terrorits(zionists) will still walk free. but hope they will think twice before they attack, as it belongs to turkish government.



Israel agencies commented,flotilla incident as a warning to those who tries to enter Israeli waters with out their permission,So same for Turkish warships also...

Egypt allows the transit of humanitarian aid...so is it necessary to send through sea.

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## Aslan

Al-zakir said:


> Turkey can prove it's love of Palestine and Islamic world by breaking off diplomatic relation with the terrorist. So far turkey has been sailing against Islamic world.



Zakir bhai so far Turkey had actually stood up to the pews no other country had had the b@lls to do that. Look at the siccy egyptians and the jordanians.

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## Marxist

*Israeli capt. says activists greeted soldiers by 'wielding clubs, axes and knives'*

JERUSALEM -- The Israeli soldier who was thrown off the deck following a raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla recalled today how he was attacked by 20 people "wielding clubs, axes and knives" -- stunned that a boatload of peace activists would have "wanted to kills us."

In his first interview since he was wounded in Monday's raid, the Israeli -- identified only as "Captain R." -- said hundreds of people who were on the boat took part in attacking him and his soldiers and they were forced to use weapons because of danger to their lives, according to Ynetnews.com

"Dozens of people beat each soldier on the roof [of the vessel]," he said from his bed in the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa. "They wielded clubs, axes and knives," he said. "I was the second to go down the cable, one of the guys from my group was already down there, and there were a few people on him. At first it was one-on-one, until more soldiers came down."

The pro-Palestinian flotilla had been headed to Gaza with tens of thousands of tons of aid that Israel bans from Gaza. Following days of warnings, Israel intercepted the flotilla under the cover of darkness -- setting off a violent melee that left nine activists dead and dozens of people, including seven soldiers, wounded.

Most of the dead were believed to be Turks.

Israel said 679 people were arrested from the ship and about 50 of those had left the country voluntarily. Hundreds who refused to cooperate remained jailed and subject to deportation.

Israel said the Gaza blockade is needed to prevent the Iranian-backed Hamas, which has fired thousands of rockets into the Jewish state, from building up its arsenal. It also wants to pressure Hamas to free an Israeli soldier it has held for four years.

The captain said the soldiers had prepared for both passive and violent resistance -- but admitted he had been surprised by the strength of the resistance.

"We knew they were peace activists," he said. "Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance &#8211; we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."

The unnamed captain said he was tossed from the deck amid the fighting.

"I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs. I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once." he recalled. "Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below."

He said he "felt a stabbing in my stomach. It was a knife. I got the knife out, then somehow got down to the lower deck where there were more people. This was when the soldiers had got control of all the boat except the lower deck. Me and another soldier managed to get to the deck, and we jumped into the water, from where our forces collected us. Another soldier who was beaten hard lost consciousness. Other soldiers covered him until we managed to get him out."

The captain said despite the fighting, it was ultimately a successful operation.

"I think we worked excellently," he said. "We applied all the things we learned and drilled, including purity of arms. We acted only against those who endangered us, and we had to fire at them."

Pro-Palestinian activists sent another boat to challenge Israel&#8217;s blockade of the Gaza Strip today, while Egypt declared it was temporarily opening a crossing into the Palestinian territory.

The raid provoked ferocious international condemnation of Israel, raised questions at home and appeared likely to increase pressure to end the blockade that has deepened the poverty of the 1.5 million Palestinians in the strip.

Turkey, which unofficially supported the flotilla, has led the criticism, calling the Israeli raid a &#8220;bloody massacre&#8221; and demanding that Washington condemn the raid. The White House has reacted cautiously, calling for disclosure of all the facts.

Amid the increasing tensions, the Israeli military said it carried out an airstrike in Gaza on Tuesday, and an Islamic militant group said three of its members were killed after firing rockets into southern Israel. Israeli authorities say the rockets landed in open areas and caused no injuries.

Two militants infiltrating into Israel from Gaza were killed in a separate incident Tuesday, the military said.

Israeli capt. says activists greeted soldiers by 'wielding clubs, axes and knives' - NYPOST.com


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## TrMhMt

Read Gideon Levy haaretz ... He already has admitted what the isaeli soldier have done? and how the israeli gov. has broken the laws !!! so israeli people stop lying and admit your humanity crime .....

By Gideon Levy

Like in "Mini-Israel," the park where there is everything, but smaller, Israel embarked yesterday on a mini Operation Cast Lead. Like its larger, losing predecessor, this operation had it all: the usual false claim that is was they who had started it - and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters. There was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara; that the blockade on Gaza is legal and that the flotilla to its shores is against the law - God knows which law.

Again came the claim of self defense, that "they lynched us" and that all the dead are on their side. Once more the use of violence and excessive and lethal force was in play and once more civilians wound up dead.
*

* Published 01:42 01.06.10
* Latest update 01:42 01.06.10

Operation Mini Cast Lead
By Gideon Levy

Like in "Mini-Israel," the park where there is everything, but smaller, Israel embarked yesterday on a mini Operation Cast Lead. Like its larger, losing predecessor, this operation had it all: the usual false claim that is was they who had started it - and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters. There was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara; that the blockade on Gaza is legal and that the flotilla to its shores is against the law - God knows which law.
One of the wounded activists is removed from an IDF helicopter and taken to Sheba Medical Center. 

One of the wounded activists is removed from an IDF helicopter and taken to Sheba Medical Center.
Photo by: Tal Cohen

Again came the claim of self defense, that "they lynched us" and that all the dead are on their side. Once more the use of violence and excessive and lethal force was in play and once more civilians wound up dead.

This action also featured the pathetic focus on "public relations," as if there is something to explain, and again the sick question was asked: Why didn't the soldiers use more force.

Again Israel will pay a heavy diplomatic price, once which had not been considered ahead of time. Again, the Israeli propaganda machine has managed to convince only brainwashed Israelis, and once more no one asked the question: What was it for? Why were our soldiers thrown into this trap of pipes and ball bearings? What did we get out of it? 
If Cast Lead was a turning point in the attitude of the world toward us, this operation is the second horror film of the apparently ongoing series. Israel proved yesterday that it learned nothing from the first movie.

Yesterday's fiasco could and should have been prevented. This flotilla should have been allowed to pass and the blockade should be brought to an end.

This should have happened a long time ago. In four years Hamas has not weakened and Gilad Shalit was not released. There was not even a sign of a gain.

And what have we instead? A country that is quickly becoming completely isolated. This is a place that turns away intellectuals, shoots peace activists, cuts off Gaza and now finds itself in an international blockade. Once more yesterday it seemed, and not for the first time, that Israel is increasingly breaking away from the mother ship, and losing touch with the world - which does not accept its actions and does not understand its motives.

Yesterday there was no one on the planet, not a newsman or analyst, except for its conscripted chorus, who could say a good word about the lethal takeover.

The Israel Defense Forces too came out looking bad again. The magic evaporated long ago, the most moral army in the world, that was once the best army in the world, failed again. More and more there is the impression that nearly everything it touches causes harm to Israel.

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## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> Israel agencies commented,flotilla incident as a warning to those who tries to enter Israeli waters with out their permission,So same for Turkish warships also...
> 
> Egypt allows the transit of humanitarian aid...so is it necessary to send through sea.



yes, israeli terrorists get away with murder, they have proved that they not only kill defenceless people with bullet but also with hunger. the UN have always complaind that the israelis have only allowed less than a quarter of the aid required to gaza while no construction material was allowed into gaza so the palestinians could build their houses demolished by the israelsis.


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## prodevelopment

Marxist said:


> Egypt allows the transit of humanitarian aid...so is it necessary to send through sea.



That's the whole point. This was never about aid. The entire aim of this floatilla was political in nature!!!


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## Marxist

*Israel Transfers Mavi Marmara Cargo to Gaza*

The Israeli defense establishment processed on Monday and Tuesday the aid cargo that the terror-sympathizers' flotilla was carrying and transferred it to Gaza. Much of the medicine on board was expired and useless. Weapons found on board were

Israel Story Page - USATODAY.com

Israel Transfers Flotilla Cargo  Sans Weapons  to Gaza - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News


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## Ahmad

here is some of the accounts of those were in the ship:

*I was filming, and then he [an Israeli solider] ran after me with a stun gun.

He could not catch me. One of his colleagues hit my hand from behind with a stun gun. My camera fell down. He ran to crush the camera with his feet.

I told him, don't break my camera. If you want the tapes, I will give them to you. I told him these are media equipment. They had no limits.

They used rubber bullets. They used tear gas bombs. It was an unbelievable scene.*

_We were expecting the Israeli army to stop us, to prevent us from entering but surely we didn't expect such a war against us.

It was 14 ships which approached us, nearly at 4.30 in the morning. Fourteen ships that I could count and one helicopter. Maybe more than 10 soldiers, I couldn't say exactly [how many] were getting out of the helicopter.

On the second floor of the ship there were just passengers who are journalists, a nurse and organisers of the flotilla who didn't have anything in their hands.

After 20 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, there were three dead bodies.

It ended at six, when a voice from the microphone said the ship was controlled by the Israelis, 'please enter the rooms'._

*Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat.

They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used.*


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## Al-zakir

khalidali said:


> Zakir bhai so far Turkey had actually stood up to the pews no other country had had the b@lls to do that. Look at the siccy egyptians and the jordanians.



Yes! we appreciate recent devolpment by AKP as it has Islamic root but Turkey needs to bring a notch. Muslims world expect it from former leader of Islamic world. 

Rightly said about zionist's left over bone suckers.

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## rameez ahmed

Rebell said:


> USrael could easily be counter-attacked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Map of the Islamic World
> 
> Now tell me how many Countries are united in such a case....sadly no one really



undoubtedly *every muslim* is responsible for what is going in Palestine...

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## Marxist

prodevelopment said:


> That's the whole point. This was never about aid. The entire aim of this floatilla was political in nature!!!



Egypt only allowed it today....if they want to send the aid now they can send through Egypt.


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> here is some of the accounts of those were in the ship:
> 
> *I was filming, and then he [an Israeli solider] ran after me with a stun gun.
> 
> He could not catch me. One of his colleagues hit my hand from behind with a stun gun. My camera fell down. He ran to crush the camera with his feet.
> 
> I told him, don't break my camera. If you want the tapes, I will give them to you. I told him these are media equipment. They had no limits.
> 
> They used rubber bullets. They used tear gas bombs. It was an unbelievable scene.*
> 
> _We were expecting the Israeli army to stop us, to prevent us from entering but surely we didn't expect such a war against us.
> 
> It was 14 ships which approached us, nearly at 4.30 in the morning. Fourteen ships that I could count and one helicopter. Maybe more than 10 soldiers, I couldn't say exactly [how many] were getting out of the helicopter.
> 
> On the second floor of the ship there were just passengers who are journalists, a nurse and organisers of the flotilla who didn't have anything in their hands.
> 
> After 20 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, there were three dead bodies.
> 
> It ended at six, when a voice from the microphone said the ship was controlled by the Israelis, 'please enter the rooms'._
> 
> *Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat.
> 
> They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used.*



And yet some losers here will come up with more excuses for the pews.


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## prodevelopment

Marxist said:


> Egypt only allowed it today....if they want to send the aid now they can send through Egypt.



Yes, but the people here were only critical of Israel for the imbargo, not Egypt.

The fact that Egypt has now allowed aid to go through will hugely dent the propaganda of these protest organizers.


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


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## Marxist

Ahmad said:


> *We were expecting the Israeli army to stop us, to prevent us from entering but surely we didn't expect such a war against us.*
> 
> [/B]




this line from the author states they expected Israelis will stop them before reaching Gaza,so it was clearly a political move in the name of humanitarian aid.

but the rest part was real cruelty by the forces.


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## Ahmad

prodevelopment said:


> That's the whole point. This was never about aid. The entire aim of this floatilla was political in nature!!!



that is very sick of you guys directly and indirectly taking side with the terrorists, israel have long had history of supressing people's voice against their barbarism, there is the list of a few people who were shot dead or buldozered by israelis just because they were protesting against the domolition of palestinian houses in palestine, here are some of them:

Rachel Corriewas killed by an Israeli army bulldozer in Gaza on 16 March, 2003, as she tried to stop it demolishing a Palestinian home.

The family of the US activist blames the Israeli military for her death and is forcing the country to defend itselfin court.

Tom Hurndall was a 21-year-old photojournalism student who travelled to the Gaza Strip as part of the International Solidarity Movement.

He was shot in the head in April 2003 by an Israeli army sniper while trying to rescue Palestinian children in the street.

He never regained consciousness and died nine months later in a London hospital.

British cameraman James Miller,34, was shot dead by another soldier from the same Israeli unit just a mile away three weeks later.

He was in Rafah while making a documentary for a US cable channel.

An autopsy confirmed he was almost certainly killed by an Israeli soldier, despite the army's assertions to the contrary.

Video evidence clearly showed Miller and his team carrying white flags and shouting to Israeli soldiers that they were British journalists.

Tristan Anderson,38, had three brain operations after being shot in the head with a high-velocity tear gas canister by Israeli security forces on 13 March 2009.

Anderson, who survived with major brain damage, was in the West Bank village of Nilin, protesting with Palestinian farmers against the construction of Israel's "separation wall".

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## Xeric

Bull said:


> Well who said its only terrorists and soldiers who die in Israel and palestine ? So many civilians have died before and will continue to die.


And yes that's not a problem at all, right?

No wonder you people are killing so many in Kashmir.




> They werent representing a NATO country, but were just NATA nationals acting against the will of Israel and was dealt with.


Ofcourse they were not representing the Alliance, but then they sure were representing sovereignty, freedom and liberty, and ofcourse civility, which the israelis for the obvious reasons dont respect.



> Turkey should learn to advice its nationals. Atleast that would prevent such an situation. What did turkey think when they knew their civilian were trying to break the Israel's Embargo. The righting was on the wall.


By that definition no jurnalist can visit war zones and people even need to think a 100 times before they cross a road.

BTW, just out of curiosity, are you a propagator of servitude?

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Yes, but the people here were only critical of Israel for the imbargo, not Egypt.
> 
> The fact that Egypt has now allowed aid to go through will hugely dent the propaganda of these protest organizers.



Dude you are back again with you bs agenda. Go back through the thread and look at the criticism towards Egypt. And also the whole thread is about the killing of aid workers in international waters

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## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> this line from the author states they expected Israelis will stop them before reaching Gaza,so it was clearly a political move in the name of humanitarian aid.
> 
> but the rest part was real cruelty by the forces.



yes, they thought they would have been stopped, not being killed. it shows the innocence of the aid workers and the utter barbarism of israelis. the organizers have alredy said that their intention was not only to get help to gaza, but to make the world aware of the suffering of palestinians, thats why the ship was filled with group of people from different faith(christians, muslims, jews). somebody had/have to do something to bring the plight of palesininas to the world.


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> that is very sick of you guys directly and indirectly taking side with the terrorists, israel have long had history of supressing people's voice against their barbarism, there is the list of a few people who were shot dead or buldozered by israelis just because they were protesting against the domolition of palestinian houses in palestine, here are some of them:
> 
> Rachel Corriewas killed by an Israeli army bulldozer in Gaza on 16 March, 2003, as she tried to stop it demolishing a Palestinian home.
> 
> The family of the US activist blames the Israeli military for her death and is forcing the country to defend itselfin court.
> 
> Tom Hurndall was a 21-year-old photojournalism student who travelled to the Gaza Strip as part of the International Solidarity Movement.
> 
> He was shot in the head in April 2003 by an Israeli army sniper while trying to rescue Palestinian children in the street.
> 
> He never regained consciousness and died nine months later in a London hospital.
> 
> British cameraman James Miller,34, was shot dead by another soldier from the same Israeli unit just a mile away three weeks later.
> 
> He was in Rafah while making a documentary for a US cable channel.
> 
> An autopsy confirmed he was almost certainly killed by an Israeli soldier, despite the army's assertions to the contrary.
> 
> Video evidence clearly showed Miller and his team carrying white flags and shouting to Israeli soldiers that they were British journalists.
> 
> Tristan Anderson,38, had three brain operations after being shot in the head with a high-velocity tear gas canister by Israeli security forces on 13 March 2009.
> 
> Anderson, who survived with major brain damage, was in the West Bank village of Nilin, protesting with Palestinian farmers against the construction of Israel's "separation wall".



Ahmad there is simply no excuse for these morons to defend the understandable. They are simply doing it for their love of the terrorist pews and their hate to Muslims.


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## Ahmad

khalidali said:


> Ahmad there is simply no excuse for these morons to defend the understandable. They are simply doing it for their love of the terrorist pews and their hate to Muslims.



are you talking about this woman in the picture?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Marxist said:


> Egypt only allowed it today....if they want to send the aid now they can send through Egypt.



And what was wrong with sending it through boat directly to Gaza?


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> are you talking about this woman in the picture?



Na man I was talking about the idiot that you were presenting the facts to.


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## Ahmad

here is account of one of the activits, these accounts are comning in different sites slowly now:

Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin said Israeli troops opened fire before boarding the Turkish-flagged ferry Mavi Marmara, which was the scene of the worst clashes and all the fatalities. Israeli officials have said that the use of armed force began when its boarding party was attacked.


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> Dude you are back again with you bs agenda. Go back through the thread and look at the criticism towards Egypt. And also the whole thread is about the killing of aid workers in international waters



Dude, you still haven't left this thread? How vella are you? 

And I thought we agreed not to call them aid workers but political activists? Lets not go down that road again please. 

@Agno, if the ultimate aim is to provide humanitarian aid, what is wrong with sending it through Egypt?


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## Aslan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And what was wrong with sending it through boat directly to Gaza?



Well that is the question that had been put to many of them since yesterday and they just chose to vanish for a while before coming back to start all over again.


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## Ahmad

khalidali said:


> Na man I was talking about the idiot that you were presenting the facts to.



ic, i thought it differntly, that amerian lady lost her life defending the rights of palestinians to live.


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Dude, you still haven't left this thread? How vella are you?
> 
> And I thought we agreed not to call them aid workers but political activists? Lets not go down that road again please.



And when did I make that deal with you! let me guess are you not the same person that actually wanted me to make a deal for taking a week off. Can you point out that post where I had agreed with you on what ever you are claiming. And why should I have to go I have stood my ground unlike you who runs away every time he is confronted.


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## apophenia

Bull said:


> They weren't representing a NATO country, but were just NATA nationals acting against the will of Israel and was dealt with.



Two of the ships were flying flags representation a nation which is in NATO if you don't buy into the NATO assets (civilians)argument. Read the NATO charter article 5 and 6.

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Article 6 (1)

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

* on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
* on the forces, *vessels*, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the *Mediterranean Sea* or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

pic source :Home | Mail Online


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## Marxist

Ahmad said:


> yes, they thought they would have been stopped, not being killed. it shows the innocence of the aid workers and the utter barbarism of israelis. the organizers have alredy said that their intention was not only to get help to gaza, but to make the world aware of the suffering of palestinians, thats why the ship was filled with group of people from different faith(christians, muslims, jews). somebody had/have to do something to bring the plight of palesininas to the world.



ya,those words shows the truth of the flotilla incident.and most unfortunate was loss of life..yes with this incident Palestinians will get humanitarian aid (through Egypt) so the people on the ship have achieved what they came for.

is there any info about Pakistani journalist?


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> ic, i thought it differntly, that amerian lady lost her life defending the rights of palestinians to live.



I know her, her poor parents are still struggling to get any justice.

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## MKI 30

Turkish Navy will now be escorting relief goods to gaza, this is a good gesture but dangerous too at the same time. I don't think Israel will back down and will counter turkish ships with full force. Israel have the whole support of Uncle Sam. 

That is why you see, Uncle Sam has been so quiet and mum on this issue. I am sure they knew that Israel would attack the aid ship, yet they did not do anything about it. Turkey and Israel are US allies, Dont know how US would react if both navy's face each other.


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## Fighter488

*Israel founders in international waters​*
By *Simon Thurlow *

Until Monday morning, the Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmara) had an undistinguished, if industrious, career. Relentlessly plying Istanbul's passenger routes, the ship carried hundreds of thousands of commuters and holidaymakers through the Bosphorus and the Sea of Marmara. It is doubtful whether any of those passengers would have remembered her name; they were certainly not aware that they were on board one of a very select group of sea-going vessels that have permanently altered world politics. The list includes the HMS Victory, the Bismarck, the General Balgrano - and now the Mavi Marmara. 

Nearing the end of her utility as a commercial vessel, she was sold this year by the state-owned Istanbul Fast Ferries Company for just US$1.25 million. The ship's new owners were the IHH Insani Yardim Vakfi (The Foundation of Humanitarian Relief), a Turkish non-governmental organization that focuses on Palestine, and particularly Gaza. 

Little is known about the group; various reports allege they are Islamists and have close ties to Hamas and al-Qaeda. The group itself strongly denies such ties. What is more likely is that the IHH has some form of backing from Ankara. Turkey is not famed for the strength of its civil society, and it is unlikely that any group would have been able to take such bold steps against Israel without the private support of someone in power. 

It was under the auspices of the IHH - as part of the Free Gaza flotilla - that the Mavi Marmara found herself sailing towards Gaza, laden with medical equipment, books and building materials, as well as a number of dignitaries including members of various parliaments, a Holocaust survivor and a Nobel peace prize laureate. 

The plan was to bust the three-year blockade that Israel has enforced around the Palestinian territory - a blockade designed to strangle the economic life out of the Gaza Strip and force Hamas from power - by simply steaming into the port at Gaza City. The logic of the organizations involved was that there was very little that Israel could do to forcibly halt nine unarmed ships. How wrong they were. 

It was at 4:30am Israeli time on Monday morning that the Mavi Marmara ceased to be just another Turkish ferry boat. The details remain unclear, but the basic facts are that the ship was boarded by Israeli forces in international waters. After a brief tussle, 19 passengers were dead, and the ship was no longer heading for Gaza, but for the Israeli port of Ashdod. Israeli and Middle East politics had changed forever. 

The exact sequence of events will be debated for months - who struck the first blow, who was armed and with what, when the white flag was raised, etc. None of these details will alter the consequences. 

For Israel, the Mavi Marmara is only the latest - and biggest - of a series of public relations disasters that have begun to change international perceptions of the country. Benjamin Netanyahu's cool reception from United States President Barack Obama; Mossad's alleged involvement in the assassination of a top Hamas figure in Dubai; the announcement of new settlements during US Vice President Joe Biden's Jerusalem trip; all have added up to a perception that Israel is losing its touch in the public relations department. 

For Israel's detractors, this is merely the country finally revealing its true colors. For Israel's sympathizers, it is evidence that Netanyahu's government does not have the tact and subtlety to handle Israel's delicate international relations, and certainly not the know-how to evolve its strategies to deal tricky situations. 

Certainly, the manner of the ocean raid supports this analysis. Israel made a crucial mistake in intercepting the boat in international waters; under international law, their actions amount to little more than piracy. Indeed, the whole operation was probably a mistake. Had they just allowed the Free Gaza Flotilla through, a few headlines would have been generated and then forgotten. 

Instead, Israel has focused the world's attention on Gaza, and further alienated its key allies. Israel's opponents will be delighted at another chance to assume the moral high ground. Emerging first among them is Turkey, traditionally Israel's major ally in the region. Under the leadership of Prime Minister Tayyip Reccep Erdogan, ties between the two countries have already been feeling the strain - recent incidents include Erdogan's outburst in Davos, where he stormed out of a panel discussion with President Shimon Peres over Israel's actions in Gaza, and the bizarre meeting where Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister made the Turkish ambassador sit on a lower chair, and refused to shake his hand, as a public rebuke for alleged anti-Semitism in a Turkish television show. 

Turkey's response to the Mavi Marmara incident was swift and unexpectedly harsh: Israel was guilty of "state terrorism", said Erdogan, currently on a state visit to South America (which itself was not without controversy; he canceled his Argentina leg because the Buenos Aires municipality decided to scrap the planned unveiling of a statue of Turkish founding father Ataturk, apparently due to Armenian pressure). 

Turkey's positioning in the next few days will be critical; this incident may well be the catalyst for the country to finally assume the Arab leadership mantle that Ataturk abandoned so whole-heartedly. Turkey has elections in a year, and for the first time since 2002 they may be competitive; a sex scandal means the opposition party has a fresh, popular leader, with polls already showing much increased support. An aggressive foreign policy always plays well with the electorate; just ask George W Bush. 

The Mavi Marmara is now docked in Ashdod, alongside the other eight ships of the Free Gaza flotilla. Israel has promised to send the supplies it carried to Gaza (but only those supplies that comply with existing Israeli regulations). The ships' passengers have been detained; they will be offered immediate deportation or the chance to fight their cases in Israeli courts. 

*Despite the tragic loss of life, the activists in detention know that they have struck a crucial blow against Israel's siege of Gaza. For as a short term measure, the raid of the Mavi Marmara proved that the blockade of Gaza is still very much in force; in the long term, however, it will be remembered as the incident that precipitated its demise.​*
_Simon Thurlow is a specialist in international relations, with particular emphasis on the Middle East and Africa. To read his blog, ple_ase click here. 

(Copyright 2010 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.) 

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> And when did I make that deal with you! let me guess are you not the same person that actually wanted me to make a deal for taking a week off. Can you point out that post where I had agreed with you on what ever you are claiming. And why should I have to go I have stood my ground unlike you who runs away every time he is confronted.



Yup, I'm the same person. And if I remember correctly you were too chicken to take up my offer. Unlike you, I have a life so I went away.

Regarding the flotilla, if you still haven't changed your mind, then here is my final proof:

"....._The Free Gaza Movement says it wants to raise awareness of what it describes as the "illegal siege on Gaza" by Israel. It says the blockade of Gaza by Israel is unjustified and that it denies Palestinians vital goods and services. "We want to raise international awareness about the prison-like closure of Gaza and pressure the international community to review its sanctions policy and end its support for continued Israeli occupation," the group says on its website._....."
Q&A: Aid and Israel's Gaza blockade - CNN.com

Freegaza - Our Mission

If you still don't agree, well, I'm done hitting my head against a brick wall.


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## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> ya,those words shows the truth of the flotilla incident.and most unfortunate was loss of life..yes with this incident Palestinians will get humanitarian aid (through Egypt) so the people on the ship have achieved what they came for.
> 
> is there any info about Pakistani journalist?



ask the pakistani members, i am not from pakistan.


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## blain2

xdrive said:


> Yes. The aid boats ran the Israeli Navy blockcade and then when the soldiers boarded the boat, the aid workers tried to push the soldiers over board so they could get to the shore.
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinian waters are controlled by israel. So you have to have permission to enter the waters. The turkish aid workers didn't get permission and they ran the navy blockade.
> 
> Infact, the Israeli navy would of been well in there right to of sink the boat, but instead they decided to board it and thats when the aid workers tried to resist.



The ships were intercepted in Intl waters. Not Israeli waters. Secondly, under what law are Palestinian waters controlled by Israel?

The embargo is illegal at the very basic. All of the Israeli arguments that our boarders were attacked are devoid of legal cover. The Israelis have absolutely no jurisdiction on these boats whatsoever. Even if these boats were in the coastal waters off Gaza, the Israelis have no right to stop them yet they do it because they have the might to do so.

This act of the Israeli boarders is no different than the Somali pirates sailing international waters off the Somali coast and intercepting foreign ships.

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## Brotherhood

fateh71 said:


> Why use the word 'pews' for jews? You still have the belief that only YOU get angry over stuff? And you are the same guys who will go on an on about racism against Islam. There were jews on the aid boats too.
> 
> Get off your imaginary high horse, you don't have one.



I should have copy and paste some of your posts from I.... defence to here, show everyone what a hypocrite you are, but oh well, it ain't worth it. You are what you are.

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## Aslan

fateh71 said:


> Forget it, pews it is for the humanitarians!





> Why use the word 'pews' for jews? You still have the belief that only YOU get angry over stuff? And you are the same guys who will go on an on about racism against Islam. There were jews on the aid boats too.
> 
> Get off your imaginary high horse, you don't have one.



If you are not man enough to stand by your words then dont bother. Next time when talking to me at least have to audacity to quote me so that I would know who whats up. And secondly the above coming from you is not even a surprise you Muslim hating bigot. And yes the humanity of the pews, the whole world saw it. May be if you had taken off your I hate Muslim glassed you might have seen it too. I have wasted enough of my time on a soulless human like you.


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## Al-zakir

I bet if Iran blow up some zionist ship in international water over security concern then the world will attack Iran like hungry wolves including some so called muslim nations. This world is full of Hypocrite......

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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Yup, I'm the same person. And if I remember correctly you were too chicken to take up my offer. Unlike you, I have a life so I went away.
> 
> Regarding the flotilla, if you still haven't changed your mind, then here is my final proof:
> 
> "....._The Free Gaza Movement says it wants to raise awareness of what it describes as the "illegal siege on Gaza" by Israel. It says the blockade of Gaza by Israel is unjustified and that it denies Palestinians vital goods and services. "We want to raise international awareness about the prison-like closure of Gaza and pressure the international community to review its sanctions policy and end its support for continued Israeli occupation," the group says on its website._....."
> Q&A: Aid and Israel's Gaza blockade - CNN.com
> 
> Freegaza - Our Mission
> 
> If you still don't agree, well, I'm done hitting my head against a brick wall.





Now do every one a favor and hit your head on a real brick wall the brain of yours might come back to life.

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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> ask the pakistani members, i am not from pakistan.



Just saw the slide on Geo they are saying that the 3 Pakistanis have been handed over to the Jordanian authorities. They will be coming back to Pak tom.

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## Aslan

Just saw it on Geo and Aaj that the 3 Pakistanis have been handed over to the Jordanian ambassador in telaviv. Will be coming to Jordan latter at night and back to Pakistan tom.

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## shining eyes

Unconfirmed Report: The Turks are sailing a new convoy to #Gaza, escorted by warships to the ends of the waters of Gaza.


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## Aslan

Pakistanis handed over to Jordan: Mali

ISLAMABAD: Television anchor Talat Hussain and two other Pakistanis were handed over to Jordan, Interior Minister Rehman Malik said.

Special arrangements were made to bring back Pakistani journalist Talat Hussain and other Pakistanis. They will flew back to Pakistan tomorrow.

Pakistanis handed over to Jordan: Malik - GEO.tv


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## Emperor Palpatine

shining eyes said:


> Unconfirmed Report: The Turks are sailing a new convoy to #Gaza, escorted by warships to the ends of the waters of Gaza.



Yes...That's true...Israel has told that this would be a declaration of war..


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## Aslan

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Yes...That's true...Israel has told that this would be a declaration of war..



Well lets see if the pews will risk it, we saw it during the Lebanon war how they chose to bomb Beirut when they were getting their @$$ handed to them at the border. Lets see if these buggers have it in them to start it when they can get an equal response.


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## mjnaushad

After reading the post i can feel the value of "Family". Even after all these killing and terrorist acts some members trying to defend "daddy israel".

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## shining eyes

the Israeli attack on the #freedomflotilla is like if British bobbies walked up to a fight and broke it up by shooting everyone #flotilla"

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

Update | The #RachelCorrie Ship have set of Malta heading to Gaza with 1,200 tons of aid


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## Abu Zolfiqar

israel's blatant wonton disregard for human life & property is hardly new nor out of character


picking fights with Turks is a deadly, stupid move on their part. Turkiye is a NATO member country

Israel, by attacking a Turkish ship, has effectively declared war on Turkey and all its NATO allies. And Turkey, under Article 5 of the NATO treaty -- the same article used to justify NATO help in the war in Afghanistan -- has a clear right to insist NATO support those actions they see fit to counter this attack. "The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them . . .will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force" to restore and maintain Turkey's security. The Turkish people must insist on not a just end to the blockade in Gaza, but actual punishment for Israel


i commend PM Erdogan for his statement to parliament, I also laud FM Qureshi for his condemnation of this totally uncalled for incident




will the world still turn a blind eye on this israel? On PDF there were times where i stood up for israel and said we should recognize them, at least on limited basis. Now, I will never again give them benefit of any doubt. 

israel is the problem

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## shining eyes

ISRAELI TERRORISM
21 year old, USA citizen, Emily Henochowicz lost her left eye due to a tear gas bomb thrown by Israel border soldiers, which hit her in the face.Emily Henochowich, a Jewish-origin atheist, is an art student at Cooper Union in East Village, Manhattan.
Doctors removed the left eye of American peace protestor Emily Henochowicz after she was hit in the face by a tear gas cannister fired by Israel border guards.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the Turks are a tough people who protect their honour...

israel has made a deadly mistake

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------




Prometheus said:


> BBC says location of interception is unknown.............Plz post link that said 65 kms!!!



they were INTERNATIONAL waters


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## shining eyes

_*BREAKING |*_ Gaza is in the dark (no electricity) & in anticipation after 2 raids & heavy shooting on Gaza's port by Israel! #flotilla


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## Abu Zolfiqar

shining eyes said:


> ISRAELI TERRORISM
> 21 year old, USA citizen, Emily Henochowicz lost her left eye due to a tear gas bomb thrown by Israel border soldiers, which hit her in the face.Emily Henochowich, a Jewish-origin atheist, is an art student at Cooper Union in East Village, Manhattan.
> Doctors removed the left eye of American peace protestor Emily Henochowicz after she was hit in the face by a tear gas cannister fired by Israel border guards.



off topic, bro. But when you have time do a google search on "Rachel Corrie"

reading about it will bring tears to some peoples eyes, even the most hard-hearted person


but here, lets stick to discussions and news regarding this specific incident involving Mavi Marmara


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## mjnaushad

shining eyes said:


> _*BREAKING |*_ Gaza is in the dark (no electricity) & in anticipation after 2 raids & heavy shooting on Gaza's port by Israel! #flotilla


That is justifiable too. Its their born right to voilate all laws.


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## Emperor Palpatine

What really happened was Israel Warned all the ships that it would check the ships of weapons, 1 ship resisted and started attacking the troops which boarded the ships..

Israel was actually going to allow the convoy to pass through if the convoy was checked for weapons...

Now don't bash me  this ain't my personal openion..

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## under cover

I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.


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## mjnaushad

Emperor Palpatine said:


> What really happened was Israel Warned all the ships that it would check the ships of weapons, 1 ship resisted and started attacking the troops which boarded the ships..
> 
> Israel was actually going to allow the convoy to pass through if the convoy was checked for weapons...
> 
> Now don't bash me  this ain't my personal openion..


I am not bashing you...

Go and tell daddy israel. they have no right to check that ship in international waters.


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## Aslan

under cover said:


> I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.



I hope that your gov is not stupid enough to listen to that b@$tard because we sure aint Palestine. And can you also please post that video.

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## mjnaushad

under cover said:


> I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.


Dude try this tactic on an armed ship and you'll get the answer of indo-israel.


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## Ahmad

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> will the world still turn a blind eye on this israel?



Yes, the israelis will get away with murder. this is not the first act of barbarism from zionists, they have alwasy done it and will do so in the future. american gov will regret the loss of life and thats it.


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## under cover

khalidali said:


> And can you also please post that video.



It was on TV just couple of hours ago. Will try to find on net.

At last the anchor asked whether he would justify similar action against pakistan implemented by India, his response was affirmative, stating India has its right to defend its soverignity against rogue states sponsoring terrorism.


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## under cover

mjnaushad said:


> Dude try this tactic on an armed ship and you'll get the answer of indo-israel.



There is no history of any successful millitary endevour by pakistan against India. So I dont really care about that. 


Besides lets not get offtopic.


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## Ahmad

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Israel was actually going to allow the convoy to pass through if the convoy was checked for weapons...
> 
> Now don't bash me  this ain't my personal openion..



ok, then why did they attack it from air and boats? they could have eaily escorted them to a safe place for inspection, but they instead attacked the ship.


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## fawwaxs

*4000 protest in Sydney over Gaza attack *

Thousands of protesters from Sydney's Middle Eastern communities have rallied in Sydney's CBD over humanitarian aid deaths near Gaza.

The noisy protesters crammed into Sydney Square between the Town Hall and St Andrew's Cathedral on Tuesday night after the deadly high seas attack by Israeli commandos on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.

Nine people died in the attack at dawn on Monday, many of them Turkish.

A 20-year-old Australian man has undergone surgery after being shot in the leg.

"Down Down Israel," protesters in Sydney chanted on Tuesday night.

The chant was alternated with calls to "Free Free Gaza", "Free Free Palestine" and "Shame Shame Israel".

Many wore black-and-white keffiyeh scarves, a symbol of Palestinian heritage.

Others waved Palestinian flags, while some were draped in Turkish flags.

One of the many banners read "Freedom and autonomy for Palestine".

A man who only identified himself as Abdullah told AAP he was furious some media had reported the flotilla of aid ships was approaching an Israeli barricade at the time of the attack.

"In reality, they were in international waters," he said.

The protest was organised by the Social Justice Party and attended by up to 4000 people, organisers said.

About three dozen police watched on.

Sydney Peace Foundation spokesman Stuart Rees urged the crowd to take up their cause with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and local MPs.

"Ring up Mr Rudd's office, ring up your local member of Parliament," he said.

"The Australian government has to find the courage to say no to violence in the Middle East."

There was a ripple of cheering after NSW Greens MP Lee Rhiannon spoke.

"The Australian Jewish community needs to add their voice to your voice," she said.

The protest included a march up Bathurst, Pitt and George streets.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

> Certainly, the manner of the ocean raid supports this analysis. Israel made a crucial mistake in intercepting the boat in international waters; under international law, their actions amount to little more than piracy. Indeed, the whole operation was probably a mistake. Had they just allowed the Free Gaza Flotilla through, a few headlines would have been generated and then forgotten.



Exactly why the entire episode is Israel's fault.


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## alibaz

Marxist said:


> ya,those words shows the truth of the flotilla incident.and most unfortunate was loss of life..yes with this incident Palestinians will get humanitarian aid (through Egypt) so the people on the ship have achieved what they came for.
> 
> is there any info about Pakistani journalist?



I dont think so they just came to record their point instead they came to deliver humanitarian aid whatever they brought with them. If Palestinian start getting aid through any way after a great sacrifice of the heroes from all over the world then to me they will be global heroes. I salute them.

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## fawwaxs

http://www.kosmo.com.my/kosmo/pix/2009/0109/Kosmo/Rencana_Utama/ru_01.2.jpg


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## Marxist

alibaz said:


> I dont think so they just came just to record their point instead they came to deliver humanitarian aid whatever they brought with them. If Palestinian start getting aid through any way after a great sacrifice of the heroes from all over the world then to me they will be global heroes. I salute them.



I was replying to a post there...i was appreciating their bravery,my salutes also


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## Abu Zolfiqar

prodevelopment said:


> Anyone following the story for the past 2 days would realize that this was nothing but a media gimmick. Why else did they have an 'Al-Jazeera' reporter on board, go via the sea route and challenge Israelis head on? If they wanted to 'help' the Palestinians, why not go thru Egypt?



the Rafah border has been closed for 3 years 

only now after this incident, Egyptian authorities have opened it up.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

under cover said:


> I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.



great role models you have...a country the size of yours needing help and advice from a tiny nation that is in defiance of over 100 UN resolutions

see how far that gets you

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## Pakz

under cover said:


> I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.



India using such tactic?...so indian navy is going to storm a pakistani ship in international water?..well it seems that Israeli ambassador has no idea that Pakistan navy can do same with indian ships in international water as well.

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## Spring Onion

*Talat Hussain is safely handed over to Pakistani Ambassador in Jordan and he with all his companions will be in Pakistan by tomorrow,InshyAllah*

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## Pasban

01 June 2010 - 13H48 

Iran wants Netanyahu to face trial for Gaza raid

AFP - Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Tuesday called for Israel's prime minister and defence minister to face trial for the deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla in the eastern Mediterranean.

The United States, Britain and France must also be held accountable for Monday's Israeli raid on the flotilla loaded with international aid, said Khamenei, who is all-powerful in the Islamic republic.

"The Arab League and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference must not be satisfied with anything less than a full lifting of the Gaza blockade," he said in a statement.

Khamenei also called for "an end to the grabbing of Palestinian land in the West Bank and a trial of criminals such as (Prime Minister Benjamin) Netanyahu and (Defence Minister Ehud) Barak."

He said the "criminal attack ... should have convinced everyone that Zionism is the new and more violent face of fascism which is backed by those states which advocate freedom and human rights, above all the US government."

Washington, London and Paris should also be held accountable, he said.

"US, Britain, France and other European communities which have politically and financially backed these criminals should be seriously held accountable," the cleric said.

In a pre-dawn operation on Monday, Israeli commandos raided the flotilla and at least nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed in ensuing clashes, according to the Israeli army.

Earlier on Tuesday, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also lashed out at Israel and said Tehran had precise information that Israel planned to launch a "massive attack" on Gaza in the wake of the deadly raid.

"I warn you that if this time you commit a crime against any place, against Gaza, the storm of regional nations' fury will uproot you," he said in a speech in the western Iranian city of Ilam.

The hardliner, who has repeatedly infuriated the world by his anti-Israeli tirades, also criticised Washington for issuing what he said was a "very weak" response to the raid.

"The US government has adopted a very weak and biased position. Instead of condemning, it has spoken vaguely and sought to evade taking a stance," he said, while some European countries had adopted a "good" stand.

The attack on the flotilla has triggered a fresh wave of tirades from Ahmadinejad against Israel, the Islamic republic's arch-foe and which he has repeatedly said is doomed to be "wiped off the map." (Perhaps the most misquoted statement of this decade. Ahmadinejad said the *Zionist regime* should be "wiped off the map")

The animosity between the Islamic republic and the Jewish-- outwardly "Jewish" for political purposes only-- state has worsened under Ahmadinejad.

Israel, for its part, has consistently demanded strong action against Iran for pursuing its controversial nuclear programme and has not ruled out a military strike.

Iranian Jews, in a statement, demanded those responsible for the flotilla raid be punished and that such attacks be prevented in future.

"Tehran's Jewish community condemns the inhuman act by Zionists of attacking a non-military flotilla," said the Tehran Jewish Community, which represents the minority in the Islamic republic.

"On behalf of Iran's Jewish community, we firmly demand serious international action to punish the criminals and measures to prevent such catastrophes."

France24 - Iran wants Netanyahu to face trial for Gaza raid

side note: Iran has the largest Jewish community in the Middle-East outside the Zionist apartheid state.

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## Ahmad

under cover said:


> He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.



it is very reasonablbe to equate Al Qaeda with the terrorist state(israeli terrorist state), they have got everything in common. by the way, i am sure there might be some other hindu terrorist group as well who can be equated with al qaeda and zionists.

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## alibaz

ISLAMABAD : Syed Talat Hussain, the Executive Director news and 
current affairs of Aaj News and other two Pakistanis, detained by Israel after attack on aid flotilla, have been handed over to Jordanian ambassador to Israel, Aaj News reported.

According to details, the Interpol has confirmed that the three Pakistanis have been handed over to Jordanian ambassador to Israel .

Jordanian ambassador along with Syed Talat Hussain, Raza Agha and Nadeem Ahmed has left Tel Aviv for King Hussein Bridge Jordan where he will hand over the three Pakistanis to the Pakistani ambassador to Jordan. All the three Pakistanis will be returning to Pakistan on Wednesday, the channel added.

AAJ TV : Pakistan Ki Awaz


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## hal-fgfa

Ahmad said:


> it is very reasonablbe to equate Al Qaeda with the terrorist state(israeli terrorist state), they have got everything in common. by the way, i am sure there might be some other* hindu terrorist group *as well who can be equated with al qaeda and zionists.



well u r not sure .... but whole world is sure about *muslim terrorist groups*


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## alibaz

Executive Director Aaj News Talat Hussains wife Tehmina Hussain has said that her husband has fulfilled his duty with courage. While appreciating her husband efforts, Tehmina said that Talat had gone for a cause and now the entire nation is praying for his safe return.

She was talking to Aaj News morning show AAJ SUBH. Tehmina thanked the government and media for its efforts and said that the whole nation has stood by her during this hour of need.


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## Ahmad

Pasban said:


> 01 June 2010 - 13H48
> 
> Iran wants Netanyahu to face trial for Gaza raid



that is not gona happen bro, they do all crimes and get away with it.

&#1580;&#1575;&#1740; &#1575;&#1740;&#1606; &#1705;&#1587; &#1705;&#1588; &#1607;&#1575;&#1740; &#1581;&#1585;&#1575;&#1605;&#1585;&#1575;&#1583;&#1607; &#1583;&#1585; &#1583;&#1608;&#1586;&#1582; &#1575;&#1587;&#1578; , &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1588;&#1582;&#1589;&#1575; &#1576;&#1587;&#1740;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1575; &#1575;&#1605;&#1740;&#1583; &#1608; &#1593;&#1589;&#1576;&#1575;&#1606;&#1740; &#1607;&#1587;&#1578;&#1605;


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## Ahmad

hal-fgfa said:


> well u r not sure .... but whole world is sure about *muslim terrorist groups*



no i am absolutely sure, to qualify for a terrorists you need to kill the innocetn people and terrorize them, that is what israel is doing. if you have got anything other than that i an listening to you.


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## hal-fgfa

Ahmad said:


> no i am absolutely sure, to qualify for a terrorists you need to kill the innocetn people and terrorize them, that is what israel is doing. if you have got anything other than that i an listening to you.



so why u use word hindu terror group ... which hindu group you found to do this all ????


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## alibaz




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## mjnaushad

hal-fgfa said:


> so why u use word hindu terror group ... which hindu group you found to do this all ????


TSI..........


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## hal-fgfa

mjnaushad said:


> TSI..........



whts that mean .... show it with proof because i can show you proof against muslim terrorist groups


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Witnesses cast doubt on Israel's convoy raid account*
​Page last updated at 18:00 GMT, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 19:00 UK



Eyewitness accounts from ships raided by Israeli commandos have cast doubt on Israel's version of events that led to the deaths of at least 10 people.

German pro-Palestinian activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship.

Israel says its soldiers were attacked with "knives, clubs and other weapons" and opened fire in self defence.

The raid led to widespread condemnation and the UN has called for an inquiry.

*LEGALITY OF CONVOY RAID*


* *The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought.*
* The charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable.
* A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate".
* The Israeli Defense Forces say soldiers acted in self-defence.
* An investigation, either by the UN or by the ship's flag-carrier Turkey, is required to find if the use of force was proportionate to a claim of self defence.


The six ships, carrying aid and campaigners, had sailed from Cyprus in a bid to break Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip.

"This was not an act of self-defence," said Mr Paech, a politician, as he arrived back in Berlin wrapped in a blue blanket.

"Personally I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives.

"This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission... This was a clear act of piracy," he added.

Mr Paech had been a passenger on the Turkish passenger ship Mavi Marmara where most, if not all, of the deaths occurred.

Fellow German activist Inge Hoeger said they had been on the ships "for peaceful purposes".

"We wanted to transport aid to Gaza," she said. "No-one had a weapon."

She added: "We were aware that this would not be a simple cruise across the sea to deliver the goods to Gaza. But we did not count on this kind of brutality."

Activist Bayram Kalyon, arriving back in Istanbul, had also been a passenger on the Mavi Marmara.

"The captain... told us 'They are firing randomly, they are breaking the windows and entering inside. So you should get out of here as soon as possible'. That was our last conversation with him."

Meanwhile, in Nazareth, Israeli Arab MP Haneen Zuabi - who was on the flotilla - told a press conference that Israeli forces began firing while still in the helicopters hovering over the ships.

"We are calling for an international committee to investigate this tragedy," she said.

Diplomatic sources in Ankara have said at least four of those killed were Turkish. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the assault was a "bloody massacre" and must be punished. He said Israel should not test Turkey's patience.
UN criticism

Further criticism of Israel came from UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday.

In an interview with the AFP news agency he said Israel's blockade of Gaza was responsible for the deadly raid.

"Had Israelis heeded to my call and to the call of the international community by lifting the blockade of Gaza, this tragic incident would not have happened," he said.

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen called on Israel to release people and boats it had seized.

He spoke after an emergency meeting of Nato ambassadors in 

Here at Beersheva prison in the Negev Desert, in the sweltering heat, a procession of foreign diplomats and lawyers has been trying to gain access to the prisoners.

Most have been let in and so has a party from the International Red Cross. Those who have come out have not said much more than that they have been able to see their prisoners.

Behind the blue and white 8m-high concrete walls, more than 600 people are being held.

For how long and to what purpose is not yet clear. Perspiring journalists can be seen scanning the Israeli newspapers, the headlines reading "Botched raid on Free Gaza Flotilla" and "Flotilla Fiasco".

Renewed violence broke out in Gaza on Tuesday, with five Palestinians reportedly killed by Israeli fire.

Two Palestinian gunmen were shot dead after crossing the border in the south of the territory, a military spokesman said.

Three more people died in an Israeli strike in the north of Gaza, according to Gaza's emergency services. Israel said it carried out an air strike after two rockets were fired from Gaza.

Following the Israeli sea-born raid, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ordered the border crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip to be opened.

The Rafah crossing has been closed since 2007, although special medical cases are occasionally allowed through.

The Egyptian state news agency said the latest opening was to allow humanitarian aid through. It is not clear how long it will be kept open.

The UN Security Council issued a statement after deliberating through the night.

It said an investigation should be "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent". It also condemned the "acts" which led to the deaths.

BBC News - Witnesses cast doubt on Israel's convoy raid account

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## Ahmad

hal-fgfa said:


> so why u use word hindu terror group ... which hindu group you found to do this all ????



i am not quite sure about the hindu terror groups because i neve paid attention to your country, but i have seen some of the extremest hidus chantng against the muslims, and also can you tell me how the muslims got killed and brund in riots in india? was it the gov of india act or somethingi else? and at last, dont you think the israelis qualify for a terrorist?

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## mjnaushad

hal-fgfa said:


> whts that mean .... show it with proof because i can show you proof against muslim terrorist groups


There were some people killed and burned, Women raped in a place i wont name because i don't want to derail......

Tamiltigers are another example....


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## under cover

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> great role models you have...a country the size of yours needing help and advice from a tiny nation that is in defiance of over 100 UN resolutions
> 
> see how far that gets you



I have no problem in accepting Isreal as a role model. Particularly its prowess in defence technolgy and the fact that it makes its adversary p!ss in its pants whenever confronted. It dares to challenge all the arabs collectively and even has the might to raze whole of arab to dust. In other words most masculine state in the middle east.

We need to keep biased human right abuse charges from biased islamic media aside. Human rights abuses in china are far greater than that by Israel. yet paksitan sees it in good faith. Similarly Israel can be considered role model for India in totality.

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## Spring Onion

Ahmad said:


> i am not quite sure about the hindu terror groups because i neve paid attention to your country, but i have seen some of the extremest hidus chantng against the muslims, and also can you tell me how the muslims got killed and brund in riots in india? was it the gov of india act or somethingi else? and at last, dont you think the israelis qualify for a terrorist?



RSS, Bajrang Dal, VHP all are terrorist groups with political links and links with Terrorist state of Israel.

Recently Indian serving Army Col Prohit was caught for bombing in own country.

later it was found out that he and his fellows were having links with Israel and wanted to establish a pure Hindu state with help of Israel.

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## Ahmad

There has been strong Statements from Turkish PM Erdogan, he has said:

Israel should be "punished" for its "bloody massacre" of activists following its attack on a humanitarian aid convoy that was heading to the Gaza Strip.
Erdogan warned that no one should test Turkey's patience and said the Israeli action was an attack "on international law, the conscience of humanity and world peace". 
In a speech to legislators on Tuesday, Erdogan said: "It is no longer possible to cover up or ignore Israel's lawlessness. 
"The international community must from now on say 'enough is enough'.

"Dry statements of condemnation are not enough ... there should be results."
Anita McNaught, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Istanbul, said Erdogan's speech was "extraordinarily strong".

She said he "mentioned the unmentionable, saying that Israel acts because it has powerful friends".

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## Solomon2

> If you saw it, would you then believe it? And if you believed it, would you dare report it? Perhaps Israel should stick Pakistani reporters on its assault helicopters in addition to video cameras.










> Ah, but Pakistani aren't permitted to visit Israel, are they? You'll have to make do with the videos then, just like everyone else. g'nite.





TaimiKhan said:


> Well it may have missed your attention, but a very well known Pakistani journalist is in the custody of Israel, who was fortunately on that very ship and saw all this first hand and experienced it too.


It did escape my attention.


> No matter what you post, from what you post, we all know the truth and what Israel does.


So you choose to deny facts, and cling to your prejudices instead. Why do you do this?



> As said by many members, when a thief enters your house, you don't welcome him, you retaliate.



As one Israeli put it,


> The idea is one rooted in common-law, that while normal people have a full right to defend themselves, thieves who enter peoples' homes do not. If the owner attacks them with deadly force, and the thief kills the owner in genuine self-defense, the thief will still be considered a murderer. That's Israel's story. Many consider Israel, to some extent, a thief in the home of the Palestinians -



Long-time PDF readers will note that I've documented the roots of Israel's legitimacy. This is countered by tales of Israeli "atrocities" - Israeli activities against those who seek to destroy the Jewish state. Somehow, those acts alone seem to de-legitimize Israel in many people's eyes. 
This is circular logic, and how do you think it is supposed to be broken?



> Israel Angel commandos entered the ships in international waters, thus the protesters had the right to defend themselves from the Israeli thugs. Yeah if it had been Israeli waters (which there aren't any, as its all occupied by force by the Israeli thugs), then the protesters would have been the thieves, but for now, the Israelis are the thugs. A simple but true fact.


Wrong!


> _SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
> 
> Neutral merchant vessels
> 
> 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
> 
> (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;_
> 
> I think the repeated statements by the folks organizing this convoy that they intended to break the blockade is "reasonable grounds" for Israel to have believed they intended to break the blockade. Right?
> 
> *So Israel was in compliance with international law. In fact, Israel could have sunk these ships rather than boarding them. And being in international waters is irrelevant.*
> 
> That's "humanitarian law", according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. One would expect homicidal peace activists and human rights supporters to be familiar with international humanitarian law, right? So ignorance is no excuse.
> 
> In a court of law, Israel wins this one hands down. Israel will still be lynched by the UN, but what else can the UN be expected to do but violate it's own laws and treaties? That's the new normal, right?
> Posted by: Craig at June 1, 2010 3:18 am



Bottom line: most of you have been utterly snookered by the blockade runners of Gaza and their political masters. Those who read this comment and watch the video now know better. What do you have to say for yourselves?

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well why they adopted the sea route ????
...they could have come from land..or took permissions from UN, Israel...what is the meaning of the word "Humanitarian Aid" ...i think if that was the sole purpose than there were other channels to pass on the aid and the pupose could have been peacefully done...not a single drop of blood....but you know these guys are clear....it the why i and you are talking today....writing posts....because even if some innocent people are killed and that they know surely....still they adopted that route....just to make headlines all over the world..over CNN, FOX, and to put some kind of statements in the mouth of UN....i think that was the sole purpose.......and you tell me...who gained from that "AID"......israel did not started this episode....but surely it ended this one...i still believe that israel did the right thing......these were some bunch of morons who wanted to make headline who designed this perfectly knewing that people will be killed but still carried with the stunt.... that was the purpose and i agree that they succeeded in doing this...

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## Imran Khan

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> well why they adopted the sea route ????
> ...they could have come from land..or took permissions from UN, Israel...what is the meaning of the word "Humanitarian Aid" ...i think if that was the sole purpose than there were other channels to pass on the aid and the pupose could have been peacefully done...not a single drop of blood....but you know these guys are clear....it the why i and you are talking today....writing posts....because even if some innocent people are killed and that they know surely....still they adopted that route....just to make headlines all over the world..over CNN, FOX, and to put some kind of statements in the mouth of UN....i think that was the sole purpose.......and you tell me...who gained from that "AID"......israel did not started this episode....but surely it ended this one...i still believe that israel did the right thing......these were some bunch of morons who wanted to make headline who designed this perfectly knewing that people will be killed but still carried with the stunt.... that was the purpose and i agree that they succeeded in doing this...



france ban shame after hijab??????? you have some shame ppl die for show some thing?


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## Pasban

Israelis protest in front of the Turkish embassy in Tel-Aviv in support of their government.


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## Spring Onion

Can anyone post the entire speech of Turkish PM?

*
Admins can we have a Turkish flag on Defenc.pk??*  atleast this we can as a tribute to bravery of Turkish brothers.

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## Ahmad

under cover said:


> If you already dont know, it was in response to some other post. Dont be so selective as to completely overlook those who are diverting the thread.
> Who ever started it but you people are still propagating it. So you too mind as well.



Nobody picked on you or being selective against you, it was you who statred this thing and i responded to it. check your post(i think it was post 1126), you said this: 

*I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.*

Tell me what was the point to bring pakistan in and pin point it(is it the right word i used?)


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## Solomon2

_116. If, after visit and search, there is reasonable ground for suspicion that the merchant vessel flying a neutral flag or a civil aircraft with neutral marks has enemy character, the vessel or aircraft may be captured as prize subject to adjudication._

The "enemy character" was established by the welcome Israeli troops received. Perhaps the Israelis should keep the boats and their cargoes? These are matters for a prize court. link


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## FreekiN

FreekiN said:


> *NON-DISPUTABLE FACTS*
> 
> 1. Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law, and, in killing civilians, committed a war crime.
> 
> 2. The Israeli government approved the boarding of these aid ships by an elite unit. They were armed with automatic weapons but not crowd dispersal equipment in case of resistance. Israel must be held responsible for sending in soldiers and recklessly endangering the lives of all the civilians on board, including a Holocaust survivor.
> 
> 3. Israel has no right to control Gaza's sea. In doing so, it proves that is is still in belligerent occupation. It is occupying Gaza, then under international law Israel is responsible for the welfare of it's inhabitants. Given that the blockade has put the Palestinians there on a malnourished diet and unbearable living conditions for the past three years, Israel should long ago have been in the dock for committing a crime against humanity
> 
> *Also, check this out:*
> Megaphone desktop tool - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Need we look at this again, folks?


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## Spring Onion

*Not in My Jewish Name.*

For OpEdNews: Rob Kall - Writer


*I am a Jew and I am outraged and ashamed by the acts Israel has perpetrated. I am not a self hating Jew, not an anti-semite, as some religious extremist Jews have accused me and other Jews who criticize Israel.*

*I am a Jew who knows right from wrong, who can see that the band of evil idiots in Israel who are making decisions are doing the wrong thing, doing things that are bad for the Jewish people. I stand up now declaring that Israel does not act in my name. AIPAC, the lobbying group for Israel does not act in my name.

I was ashamed and outraged when Israel attacked Gaza, killing over 1000 innocents. I told my son it would be like him throwing a balled up peice of paper at me and me coming back with a hammer smashing him in the head and face repeatedly.*


There's no other way to explain it. The Israeli leadership have become psychopaths, without conscience. I know that there are Jews who are bigots, who see the Palestinians as less than human. These are usually the same racist haters who listen to Rush Limbaugh like the Christian racist haters who treat all Muslims and blacks the same way. It's not a Jewish or Zionist thing. People who like to hate Jews tend to think that way. Sorry, It's not the case.

*Israel is now controlled by a small minority of extreme, ultra-orthodox Jews. They have the power because they have small minority power bases in the Knesset that they use to help larger groups to gain power-- as long as these fringe groups get specific things they want. These ultra-orthodox are extremist fundamentalists, just like the crazy, rabid right wingers we have here in the USA.*


*It is time for the US to deal with Israel, facing the reality that these extremists are controlling too much. The US should tell AIPAC that the curtain has been lifted, it no longer will be paid attention to and it should go away.

There are a few million Jews in the US. They're a powerful voting bloc and they tend to vote liberal-- about 75-80 percent. An awful lot of them are very unhappy today. If you know any, talk to them. If you are one, speak out, as a Jew, that you refuse to allow Israel to act as though it represents the Jewish people. Demand it. NOT IN MY NAME!! Tell them.*

*The members of congress are terrified of Israel's main lobbying arm, AIPAC, and jump like frightened puppies when AIPAC barks. I've written about this before, thatAIPAC IS Bad for Israel, but it is also bad for the Jewish people. Israel's crimes against humanity have done more to increase anti-Semitism in recent years than any other cause.

AIPAC's reign of fear over congress must stop. It will only end if constituents show that they care. Whether you are Jewish or not, tell your representatives that Israel's actions against the Palestinians and Humanitarians aiding the Palestinians must not stand. I wrote some ideas on how to fight back against AIPAC here. One thing that is still true, attacking Jews and going into anti-zionist rants will only help AIPAC. This is about Israel, not Zionism. Attacking Zionists or Israeli Jews in general does smack of anti-Semitism and serves the Israeli propagandists, even if it may make some who hate Israel feel good. If you want to help the people of Gaza talk Israeli crimes. If you want to vent your spleen and help Israel and AIPAC, talk Zionists and Zionism.*
*We are facing terrible times, with the possibility that Gulf could become a dead zone and a president who does not have what it takes to call what the Israelis did wrong.*

That must change. We need to go to the local offices of the members of the House of Representatives and show them, with big numbers, that Israel does not have a blank check. It is time to pull the plug on the bottomless money we've been sending to Israel. Force them to change their policies by voting out the insane leaders who believe that they can commit the CRIMES they've committed and the US will do nothing.

It is time. It is past time.



*Rob Kall is executive editor, publisher and site architect of OpEdNews.com, Host of the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show (WNJC 1360 AM), President of Futurehealth, Inc, (more...)*

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## Brotherhood

BBC News - Witnesses cast doubt on Israel's convoy raid account

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## DESERT FIGHTER

OOOOHHHH solomon is here now?
Why come back now?????
DOWN WITH A.. REAL


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

Imran Khan said:


> *france ban shame after hijab??????? you have some shame ppl die for show some thing?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> people die because they meant to be dead......it was the pre-determined strategy....otherwise you tell me why these people died....iF they really wanted to pass on the aid they could have followed some other route.....the sole purpose was staged drama to let people be killed and than make FUZZZZZ....all around the world...
> 
> and by the way if you speak for france...i want to make some think clear to you read below...
> 
> france never asked arabs to ban burqa in saudi.....if france bans burqa it bans in FRANCE..and not in saudi...so leave it on to FRANCE...they can even ban Muslims...or Jews....or anybody it is FRANCE.....do not care for France....Leave it to FranCE what ever the French Government do it is for the French and not for Jews, Saudis ...etc

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## Pasban

I feel this thread is getting derailed already. Can we all just get back to the main topic at hand.





Anti-Turkey protests in Israel


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## Ahmad

@Jana, i jsut saw an interveiw with a israeli MP who criticized the gov and said: our gov see everyting through the window of power and force, he said that is wrong and must be changed.


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## Aslan

Nobody picked on you or being selective against you, it was you who statred this thing and i responded to it. check your post(i think it was post 1126), you said this: 

I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.

Tell me what was the point to bring pakistan in and pin point it(is it the right word i used?)

This was posted by Ahmed in post 1183 I am dont talking to you now.


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## Vande Mataram

Stop the hypocrisy about Israel - CNN.com


> New York (CNN) -- Enjoy hypocrisy? This past weekend you could glut the appetite.
> 
> On Monday, Israeli ships stopped a flotilla carrying materials that could be used for war, including cement that Israel maintained could be used to build bunkers, to Hamas-ruled Gaza. The crew of one boat resisted violently, triggering a firefight in which nine people were killed, most of them Turkish nationals.
> 
> Turkey is protesting vigorously. But, question: Turkey is a NATO ally, an applicant to the European Union. What is it doing allowing its nationals to smuggle cement that could build bunkers? Especially when those nationals belong to a group, the Turkish IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi) that Israel has designated a terrorist organization?
> 
> The flotilla departed from Turkish-occupied northern Cyprus. Turkey's occupation of half of Cyprus is deemed illegal by the European Union and the United Nations. If the government of Turkey feels so strongly about ending disputed occupations, why does it not start with the disputed occupation it is operating itself?
> 
> The flotilla followed a breathtaking Friday at the United Nations. The 189 signatories of the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty agreed on a final list of resolutions for a safer world. The nuclear threat from Iran? Unmentioned. Instead, the NPT resolution targeted -- what a surprise -- Israel.
> 
> Shamefully, the Friday resolution was joined by the United States. Yes, the Obama administration issued a statement at the same time that "deplores the decision to single out Israel" and also "the failure of the resolution to mention Iran." The administration deplored -- but it signed.
> 
> The Obama administration's signature marks an abrupt departure from previous U.S. policy. Since the 1960s, the United States has accepted Israel's nuclear arsenal on condition that Israel not threaten its neighbors. Israel has more than met that condition. In 1973, Egypt outright invaded Israel, in full confidence that Israel would not go nuclear so long as Egypt stopped short of attacking Israel's cities.
> 
> It's important to understand that Israel (like India and Pakistan) has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. So Israel's nuclear force violates no commitments or pledges: unlike, say, the nuclear programs of Syria, Libya, Iraq and Iran, to name just four of the Middle Eastern countries that have been caught violating the NPT.
> 
> Iran by contrast is violating the NPT. Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism. And Iranian leaders have threatened to use the nuclear weapons they are seeking to annihilate Israel.
> 
> On Monday, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported that Iran has accumulated enough nuclear material for two bombs, when fully enriched. And the latest round of U.N. sanctions will do nothing to stop that bomb, because they omit the most crucial measures:
> 
>  A ban on exports of gasoline to Iran (Iran now imports half its gasoline)
> 
>  Measures to sever Iran's central bank from the global payments system
> 
> The measures adopted by the Security Council last week are not only toothless, but they even contain a loophole legalizing the sale of Russian air defenses to Iran, the better to protect nuclear facilities from action by the United States or Israel.
> 
> OK, so maybe it is not news that the U.N. system is hypocritical and useless. What is news is this: The Obama administration has broken with 40 years of precedent and has affixed its signature to a document suggesting that it is Israel's weapons -- not Iran's -- that ought to be priority No. 1 in the Middle East.
> 
> And now, post-flotilla, the Obama administration stands in danger of being drawn into the attempt to open Hamas-ruled Gaza to military-capable imports, and to force Israel to engage in some kind of negotiation with Hamas.
> 
> Former Ambassador to Israel Martin Indyk, who is close to Obama administration thinking, outlined in the New York Times Monday the contours of just such a deal:
> 
> "The administration needs to work on a package deal in which Hamas commits to preventing attacks from, and all smuggling into, Gaza. In return, Israel would drop the blockade and allow trade in and out."
> 
> It's a pretty thought. Pro-Hamas groups did not go to the trouble of organizing a flotilla of supplies that could be used for war in order to end smuggling of war material into Gaza.
> 
> Nor are pro-Hamas groups seeking to ship the material into Gaza in order to thwart future attacks on Israel. Rebuilding Hamas' bunkers is not a step toward peace.
> 
> But as with the Obama administration's joining the anti-Israel resolution at the United Nations on Friday, followed by after-the-fact explanations that Israel had nothing to fear, so the Obama administration is now being drawn into another anti-Israel action, again cushioned by assurances that, "This is for your own good."
> 
> Monday morning, ABC'S Jake Tapper reported an unnamed administration official promising "no daylight" between the United States and Israel.
> 
> But the same administration official who promised "no daylight" also told Tapper: "The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure." Meaning: first we soothe you, then we squeeze you?





> David Frum writes a weekly column for CNN.com. A special assistant to President Bush in 2001-02, he is the author of six books, including "Comeback: Conservatism That Can Win Again" and is the editor of FrumForum

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## under cover

----------------------------------


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## Aslan

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> Imran Khan said:
> 
> 
> 
> *france ban shame after hijab??????? you have some shame ppl die for show some thing?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> people die because they meant to be dead......it was the pre-determined strategy....otherwise you tell me why these people died....i they really wanted to pass on the aid they could have followed some other route.....the sole purpose was staged drama to let people be killed and than make FUZZZZZ....all around the world...
> 
> and by the way if you speak for france...i want to make some think clear to you read below...
> 
> france never asked arabs to ban burqa in saudi.....if france bans burqa it bans in FRANCE..and not in saudi...so leave it on to FRANCE...they can even ban Muslims...or Jews....or anybody it is FRANCE.....do not care for France....
> I love FRANCE...and what ever the French Government do it is for the French and not for Jews, Saudis ...etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People died because they were killed by those cold blooded murderers. Well then your country still dont think that they were wrong in killing all those Algerians, and also the bombing of Damascus during its colonial times. And israel is an illegitimate child of the west. So of course some of you will shamelessly defend her.
Click to expand...


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## Spring Onion

Vande Mataram said:


> Stop the hypocrisy about Israel - CNN.com



Only zionists are coming in support of Terrorist State of Israel and this BS proves it.


Check the neutral media there was nothing on the flotilla which could be used in war.

And what a laughing claim that Cement was on the ship which could be used in war  hypocrit terrorists and their supporter terrorists

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## T-Faz

Bastards are laughing and threatening on TV, I especially hate the spokesman for the Israeli prime minister.

What a shameless nation that acts holier and mightier than others not realising that there servant is the reason why.

As for that faggy Israeli ambassador to India taking BS, tell him to grow a pair and attack Pakistan tonight.

Let's see what happens, let's how if these cowards have the gut, all I see them do us bark like a dog with no actions to go with that. The only actions occur are those aginst weaker disadvantaged groups.

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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> Stop the hypocrisy about Israel - CNN.com





And it never hit that clown who wrote that article that the cement is also used for building houses, houses that were destroyed by the pews when they attacked Gaza. And by the way in order to build the bunkers you dont only need cement, you need alot of other things. But then again if the Palestinians were to build their houses again then the pews would have had to destroy them again. So it was extra work for them, of course you guys are right how can the Palestinians do that. How can they force the pews into extra hard work. Also the Palestinians dont deserve to build their houses do they now.

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## Spring Onion

For how long* IsraHell *continue murder of humanity ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

*** REAL? SHYT REAL OR PISS REAL?PIG REAL
Cowards. killers of humanity. barbarians..... terrorists .... attack innocent on ships 70 miles outside even the waters of GAZA?


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## Ahmad

Jana said:


> For how long* IsraHell *continue murder of humanity ?



as long as shameful administartions like america support them unconditionally.


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## Spring Onion

T-Faz said:


> Bastards are laughing and threatening on TV, I especially hate the spokesman for the Israeli prime minister.
> 
> What a shameless nation that acts holier and mightier than others not realising that there servant is the reason why.
> 
> As for that faggy Israeli ambassador to India taking BS, tell him to grow a pair and attack Pakistan tonight.
> 
> Let's see what happens, let's how if these cowards have the gut, all I see them do us bark like a dog with no actions to go with that. The only actions occur are those aginst weaker disadvantaged groups.




These terrorists will go hand in hand. They tried their level best but their uglyness is so visible they cant hide it


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## Wounded Healer

Solomon2 said:


> _116. If, after visit and search, there is reasonable ground for suspicion that the merchant vessel flying a neutral flag or a civil aircraft with neutral marks has enemy character, the vessel or aircraft may be captured as prize subject to adjudication._
> 
> The "enemy character" was established by the welcome Israeli troops received. Perhaps the Israelis should keep the boats and their cargoes? These are matters for a prize court. link



Mr.Solomon2,

I have always respected you and your point of view, but what you are trying to prove here is beyond me.

The fact of the matter is that Israel soldiers attacked a civilian boat in international waters. Of course, the occupants of the said boat had to defend themselves which they did with sticks and rods, and then Israel's soldiers opened fire on them. And now you are trying to justify what the Israelis did? There is no justification, there is no excuse. Innocent people were killed and that is the end of that. 

Nothing you say will change the truth. Simply put, it was a very badly managed operation by Israel, but you are too proud to admit it.

May God forgive the Israelis, because we will not.

regards,


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> as long as shameful administartions like america support them unconditionally.




Add to that also their slaves who rule our countries with their support.


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## Spring Onion

Ahmad said:


> as long as shameful administartions like america support them unconditionally.



This blind support by US to Israel is costing the American public heavily.

Then they ask "Why they hate us". Then they wonder why 9/11 happend.

God forbid if US continued this blind support to Terrorist State of Israel one day suicide bombing will make its way to its cities.


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## Brotherhood

Jana said:


> For how long* IsraHell *continue murder of humanity ?



Sister, its sad and unfair, but in reality, it will continue as long as her big brother US is backing its rear, not too much anyone can do about it


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## Solomon2

FreekiN said:


> Need we look at this again, folks?


Yes, you do:


> Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law -



As shown by the International Red Cross's web site link, doing so was NOT a violation of international law. To break the blockade via the "humanitarian" exemption the boats must "to submit to identification and inspection when required".



> - and, in killing civilians, committed a war crime.



As seen in the video, the "civilians" attacked the soldiers. Killing in self-defense while undertaking legitimate operations is no crime.



> They were armed with automatic weapons but not crowd dispersal equipment in case of resistance.


The original boarding party was either unarmed or only had sidearms; they were expecting peaceful protesters, not a terrorist trap. That's stupidity, not a crime.



> Israel has no right to control Gaza's sea. In doing so, it proves that is is still in belligerent occupation.


A red herring. Israel's right to board the flotilla in international waters rests upon their declared purpose of breaking the blockade and their persistent attempts to do so. Under the "humanitarian" exemption of international law, the boats were required to submit to inspection.

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## Ahmad

Jana said:


> This blind support by US to Israel is costing the American public heavily.
> 
> Then they ask "Why they hate us". Then they wonder why 9/11 happend.
> 
> God forbid if US continued this blind support to Terrorist State of Israel one day suicide bombing will make its way to its cities.



Yes, what i say about america regarding the terrorist state is only american administration, it is never directed against the respected american public, in this ship americans wer also part of it and i have seen their accounts and experience on BBC24.


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## Solomon2

Jana said:


> This blind support by US to Israel is costing the American public heavily.
> Then they ask "Why they hate us". Then they wonder why 9/11 happend.


Who is blindly supporting who here? Don't you think it is your duty as a Pakistani to correct the mistaken beliefs and perceptions of your countrymen? If not, why should others suffer because of your inaction?

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## gurjot

khalidali said:


> Nobody picked on you or being selective against you, it was you who statred this thing and i responded to it. check your post(i think it was post 1126), you said this:
> 
> I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.
> 
> Tell me what was the point to bring pakistan in and pin point it(is it the right word i used?)
> 
> This was posted by Ahmed in post 1183 I am dont talking to you now.



""he was saying that every country has a right to defend itself by any means,we r here to protect israel "".he was talking abt pak based militant groups.

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## Aslan

gurjot said:


> ""he was saying that every country has a right to defend itself by any means,we r here to protect israel "".he was talking abt pak based militant groups.



Aik tumhari kami reh gaye thi.


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## Ahmad

gurjot said:


> ""he was saying that every country has a right to defend itself by any means,we r here to protect israel "".he was talking abt pak based militant groups.



yes, according to this theory, palestinians have every right to defend their land against the israeli fascims which is denying them every basic human rights and stealing their land.

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## Spring Onion

Solomon2 said:


> A red herring. Israel's right to board the flotilla in international waters rests upon their declared purpose of breaking the blockade and their persistent attempts to do so.



Israel and others were already in knowledge of this convy just two days back even our brave Talat Hussain was reporting livestreaming from there and the next day Terrorists of IsraHell attacked the civilians.



Solomon2 said:


> Under the "humanitarian" exemption of international law, the boats were required to submit to inspection.



So it means the IsraHell army attacked the boats without inspection??

They did not carry any inspection of the boats right?

Is so then how come one biased one sided claim by a zionist writer on CNN said that there was cement on the ship which could be used in war

As far as the video you posted please check BBC report for that.


It clearly says that IsraHell army had tailord it


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## Aslan

gurjot said:


> ""he was saying that every country has a right to defend itself by any means,we r here to protect israel "".he was talking abt pak based militant groups.



And by the way as I said earlier this is not the thread to talk about Pakistan and india and also what the pewish ambassador thinks about Pakistan. U want to talk about it then open another thread for that, I have reported your post for being off topic.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

khalidali said:


> ouiouiouiouiouioui said:
> 
> 
> 
> People died because they were killed by those cold blooded murderers. Well then your country still dont think that they were wrong in killing all those *Algerians, and also the bombing of Damascus during its colonial times*. And israel is an illegitimate child of the west. So of course some of you will shamelessly defend her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just tell why these so called humanitarian aid workers or people; adopted the sea route when they knew israeli's will pump up their butz....it proves these were somebody's stooges who were doing the stunts......to get cheap publicity worldwide in the name of Humanitarian workers...dont derail by quoting damascus or algerians..you knowledge seems to be limited although
Click to expand...

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## Spring Onion

gurjot said:


> ""he was saying that every country has a right to defend itself by any means,we r here to protect israel "".he was talking abt pak based militant groups.



Isreal is not a country. Its a land of Palestinians which is grabbed by Zionists and Jews from all around the world were brought to this land of Palestine which belongs to Palestinians.


2. It was Humanitarian ship, unarmed people, journalists, social workers from 25 countries including Muslims and Non-Muslims onboard. SO against whom IsraHell was protecting ???????????



They were not some soldiers but civilians carrying food for the strainded Palestinians.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> As shown by the International Red Cross's web site link, doing so was NOT a violation of international law. *To break the blockade via the "humanitarian" exemption the boats must "to submit to identification and inspection when required*".




Wat law gives israhell right to inspect boats in international waters?boarding them and using lethal force on its passengers?
Its identification was already known .....INTERNATIONALY



> As seen in the video, the "civilians" attacked the soldiers. Killing in self-defense while undertaking legitimate operations is no crime.



And wat were the barbarians doing? kissing thier feet.



> *The original boarding party was either unarmed or only had sidearms;*.



Whats the proof? u terrorist sympathiser?



> they were expecting peaceful protesters, not a terrorist trap. That's stupidity, not a crime



WAT?
Boarding a ship using helis?armed with weapons and to expect peace?
and in retaliation killin people who were bringin AID is a crime?
Ur a terrorist and arse-real is a terrorist state.
A STAIN ON HUMANITY




> A red herring. Israel's right to board the flotilla in international waters rests upon their declared purpose of breaking the blockade and their persistent attempts to do so. Under the "humanitarian" exemption of international law, the boats were *required to submit to inspection*.



Not in internation waters? and even the gazan sea territory is not hell reali.
DOWN WITHHELL REAL.
BLACK STAIN ON HISTORY OF MANKIND


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## under cover

khalidali said:


> Nobody picked on you or being selective against you, it was you who statred this thing and i responded to it. check your post(i think it was post 1126), you said this:
> 
> I was today watching interview of Israeli Ambasador to India in an interview with Rajdeep sardesai. He openly advocated India using such tacticts against rogue terrorism sponsoring states like pakistan. He equated hamas and other islamic terrorists groups with pakistani groups and called for joint Indo-Israeli front to counter the threats of Islamic extremisim citing the current events of storming the ships as an example.
> 
> Tell me what was the point to bring pakistan in and pin point it(is it the right word i used?)
> 
> This was posted by Ahmed in post 1183 I am dont talking to you now.



I get you point here. but I was merely quoting the Isareli ambassador when he was asked to comment on this cargo ship issue. It was his words not mine. He reffref to pakistan many times and he was trying to convince the news anchor by comparing hamas etc with pak based terror groups.


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## Aslan

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> khalidali said:
> 
> 
> 
> just tell why these so called humanitarian aid workers or people adopted the sea route when they knew israeli's will pump up their butz....dont derail by quoting damascus or algerians..you knowledge seems to be limited although
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did I miss some other killings by the French, my bad.
> And pumping the butz eh. May be the next time when some pewish butz you will apply the same logic and not whine about it. This goes onto show the level of humanity of you people. And a gew bigots like you give a bad name to all of your country men even the one who oppose such things.
Click to expand...


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## Spring Onion

Solomon2 said:


> Who is blindly supporting who here? Don't you think it is your duty as a Pakistani to correct the mistaken beliefs and perceptions of your countrymen? If not, why should others suffer because of your inaction?



The world has seen the daylight massacare of Palestinians at the hands of IsraHell supported by US.

What is mistaken about it???


These terrorist activities by US father IsraHell and US support for these terrorist activities is creating more hate for poor Americans.

Time to correct your mistakes and see the light . Stop blindly supporting Zionists


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## Aslan

under cover said:


> I get you point here. but I was merely quoting the Isareli ambassador when he was asked to comment on this cargo ship issue. It was his words not mine. He reffref to pakistan many times and he was trying to convince the news anchor by comparing hamas etc with pak based terror groups.



Well what else can you expect from the pigs they have this new card to play now. As the old holocaust one was getting old now they play the Hamas card. So any one who is not agreeing to them is taunted as a follower of Hamas ideology. So nothing new from the vampires.


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## Spring Onion

under cover said:


> I get you point here. but I was merely quoting the Isareli ambassador when he was asked to comment on this cargo ship issue. It was his words not mine. He reffref to pakistan many times and he was trying to convince the news anchor by comparing hamas etc with pak based terror groups.



Seeing the entire world in rage against IsraHell, his terrorist state, the Israeli ambassador might be trying to win Indian support for this barbaric act so thats why his appeasment of India by bringing Pakistan into it


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## gurjot

khalidali said:


> Aik tumhari kami reh gaye thi.



na ek pak ki kami reh gayi thi,thats y he mentioned pak


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## Solomon2

Wounded Healer said:


> I have always respected you and your point of view, but what you are trying to prove here is beyond me.


That Israel was in the right, and those who directed the flotilla were in the wrong - and the world should side with Israel.



> The fact of the matter is that Israel soldiers attacked a civilian boat in international waters.


After Israeli soldiers were themselves attacked.



> Of course, the occupants of the said boat had to defend themselves which they did with sticks and rods, and then Israel's soldiers opened fire on them.


Uh-uh. Under international law, the boats were required to submit to Israeli inspection. This stuff has happened before, but this is the first time a boarding party was attacked.



> Innocent people were killed and that is the end of that.


You saw the video? I doubt everyone killed was "innocent". Every one of those people on board knew their function was to be a human shield. They might not have realized the aggressive intentions of some of their number, but is that really an excuse?



> Nothing you say will change the truth.


I document every claim I make, don't I?



> Simply put, it was a very badly managed operation by Israel, but you are too proud to admit it.


I am not privy to enough knowledge to determine if the matter could have been handled differently. That the soldiers were attacked and harmed strongly suggests the operation was flawed by expectations (based on experience and legal right) of a peaceful reception.



> May God forgive the Israelis, because we will not.


So here is the bottom line from one Pakistani: _*"Nothing will ever change our prejudices against Israel and Israelis, for our hatred is holy to us!"*_

And you wonder why Pakistan is threatened by crime and terrorism? Why should citizens make the effort to go to the middle east or Afghanistan, when there are so many people to hate at home?


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## asq

> Do you believe India was right in shooting down this plane, because the world condemns that Pakistan was flying so close to the border?



There is a pact between Indian and Pakistan allowing flying militry planes to watch the enemy if it is up to some mischief.

When planes fly at such hieghts, 10 or 20 K.M means nothing and shooting an unarmed plane is cowardice, when u kill 20 innocent people. it is nasty to say plane intruded within 10 kilometers.

What about innocent people killed and their families.



> Comeon, listen.
> Yours is logical reasoning.





> There ain't no proof to it.
> Don't keep giving me logical scenarios and trying to simulate what really happened


 
U Indians are always sucking up to Israel, how can we the Pakitanis talk to u when u are so prejudiced against Muslims and favour Israel and wait for signals from Isrelis to jump and u say how high, man have no self respect and don't want to see what the world is saying and are blinded by greed to get waepons from Israel.



> Actually, by those standards, Israel has the right to blockade.
> Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com



U. R. quoting CNN, this channels has nothing good to say about Muslims, they employ people like Zakaria an Indian who is blinded by greed to make browny point with India and is always talking from the side of his mouth, Mushraf has put him in his place by showing him the facts but he has no principals and is motivated by greed for money and he sells his soul for money.


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## Durran3

81 pages of the same thing again and again...people just need to read the previous post and stop posting the same arguments and stop going in circles.. unless you have something new to discuss

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## Aslan

gurjot said:


> na ek pak ki kami reh gayi thi,thats y he mentioned pak



Do you have any thing else to add or not. Carry on with your cr@p I will let the mods handle you.


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## gurjot

khalidali said:


> And by the way as I said earlier this is not the thread to talk about Pakistan and india and also what the pewish ambassador thinks about Pakistan. U want to talk about it then open another thread for that, I have reported your post for being off topic.



i was answering the post in which that person mentioned pakistan by israeli ambassador.i think u shud check some earlier posts.have a nice night


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> @All: Please stop posting in this thread because it has been contaminated by idiots like khalidali.
> 
> @Khalidali: Dude, just how many posts do you have in this thread? And how many of them have been constructive?



Why dont you go and count, and make sure that you also count all the other idiots that I was replying to and by the way you are one of them. And listen kid, I look like an idiot to you because I decided to confront you the sympathizer of terrorists.


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## Ahmad

Solomon2 said:


> That Israel was in the right, and those who directed the flotilla were in the wrong - and the world should side with Israel.



the truth is that this is not the first incident which have left the hands of israel red with blood, it has always been like that, everytime they have been defended by americans and supported unconditionally. do you know that there is no enough food for the palestinains? only less than a quarter of the aid requres will be allowed by the israelis, no construcion material is allowed for the gazans to build their demolished homes.


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## Durran3

> U. R. quoting CNN, this channels has nothing good to say about Muslims, they employ people like Zakaria an Indian who is blinded by greed to make browny point with India and is always talking from the side of his mouth, Mushraf has put him in his place by showing him the facts but he has no principals and is motivated by greed for money and he sells his soul for money.



You need to get your priories straight. Its not called Biased reporting its called reporting both sides of the story. Just because a neo-conservative from the Bush Administration posted a pro-israeli article does not mean that CNN has nothing good to say about Muslims. That's just ignorance speaking on your behalf. There have been articles both pro and against Israel on almost all news organizations from CNN, to Al-jazeera and BBC.

Also don't talk crap like Zakaria is blinded by greed to make browny money. It just shows that your very ignorant and don't know how journalism works. Fareed Zakaria is an excellent journalist and i throughly enjoy watching his show. You should also read the Post American World by Fareed Zakaria, its a very well written and intelligent book. Zakaria is may have made a few mistakes or was ill informed about a few things but that doesn't mean that he loses all credibility as an intelligent anchor for his show on CNN.


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## asq

> So here is the bottom line from one Pakistani: "Nothing will ever change our prejudices against Israel and Israelis, for our hatred is holy to us!"



U .R. so prjudice when u quote one Pakistani and do not take into consideration most pakistanis.

U have salective memory my friend and u should behave in a civilised mannners. Listen to the world and U.N.


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## gurjot

in past worst than this has happened,it gave nothing.similarly after few days of world cry.it will also not give anything.only think is u.s support to israel.


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## Spring Onion

gurjot said:


> in past worst than this has happened,it gave nothing.similarly after few days of world cry.it will also not give anything.only think is u.s support to israel.



BUT it does not mean that we should sell our Humanity. Atleast we dont.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Solomon2 said:


> *That Israel was in the right, and those who directed the flotilla were in the wrong - and the world should side with Israel.
> *
> After Israeli soldiers were themselves attacked.
> 
> Uh-uh. Under international law, the boats were required to submit to Israeli inspection. This stuff has happened before, but this is the first time a boarding party was attacked.
> 
> You saw the video? I doubt everyone killed was "innocent". Every one of those people on board knew their function was to be a human shield. They might not have realized the aggressive intentions of some of their number, but is that really an excuse?
> 
> I document every claim I make, don't I?
> 
> I am not privy to enough knowledge to determine if the matter could have been handled differently. That the soldiers were attacked and harmed strongly suggests the operation was flawed by expectations (based on experience and legal right) of a peaceful reception.
> 
> So here is the bottom line from one Pakistani: _*"Nothing will ever change our prejudices against Israel and Israelis, for our hatred is holy to us!"*_
> 
> And you wonder why Pakistan is threatened by crime and terrorism? Why should citizens make the effort to go to the middle east or Afghanistan, when there are so many people to hate at home?



Buck up Solmon2


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## asq

You need to get your priories straight. Its not called Biased reporting its called reporting both sides of the story. Just because a neo-conservative from the Bush Administration posted a pro-israeli article does not mean that CNN has nothing good to say about Muslims. That's just ignorance speaking on your behalf. There have been articles both pro and against Israel on almost all news organizations from CNN, to Al-jazeera and BBC.

Als


> o don't talk crap like Zakaria is blinded by greed to make browny money. It just shows that your very ignorant and don't know how journalism works. Fareed Zakaria is an excellent journalist and i throughly enjoy watching his show. You should also read the Post American World by Fareed Zakaria, its a very well written and intelligent book.



The reporting that talk about is few and far between and is not put o5n prime time as is the case in other reports.

Please my freind, see the light and donot judge by whims before u see the facts about CNN and Zakria.

The books they write, how many would read those, so Just to get the lebel off themselves they write books and absolve the responsibilty by saying i wrote the book.

Book shows that he is very clever and will write two differant and opposing Indeas to say, see i have written a book.

He must stick to the truth at all time and not shift like a weasel


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## Wounded Healer

Solomon2 said:


> That Israel was in the right, and those who directed the flotilla were in the wrong - and the world should side with Israel.
> 
> After Israeli soldiers were themselves attacked.
> 
> Uh-uh. Under international law, the boats were required to submit to Israeli inspection. This stuff has happened before, but this is the first time a boarding party was attacked.
> 
> You saw the video? I doubt everyone killed was "innocent". Every one of those people on board knew their function was to be a human shield. They might not have realized the aggressive intentions of some of their number, but is that really an excuse?
> 
> I document every claim I make, don't I?
> 
> I am not privy to enough knowledge to determine if the matter could have been handled differently. That the soldiers were attacked and harmed strongly suggests the operation was flawed by expectations (based on experience and legal right) of a peaceful reception.
> 
> So here is the bottom line from one Pakistani: _*"Nothing will ever change our prejudices against Israel and Israelis, for our hatred is holy to us!"*_
> 
> And you wonder why Pakistan is threatened by crime and terrorism? Why should citizens make the effort to go to the middle east or Afghanistan, when there are so many people to hate at home?



Hate? Is that your excuse? You do these things because we hate you? Make us love you then......do the right thing, for once, and then see the change in us. Dont expect the common man to love a tyrant.

And one thing more, i dont hate, i just........tolerate.



> And you wonder why Pakistan is threatened by crime and terrorism? Why should citizens make the effort to go to the middle east or Afghanistan, when there are so many people to hate at home?



I dont wonder, i know........but that is beside the point. Why are you bringing Pakistan into this? Another way to side-track the issue? Stick to the topic at hand please, we can discuss Pakistan's issues some place else.

regards,

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

why the post contains the name Talat hussain..is he a nobel winner or a rocket scientist....never came across with this name....

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## Aslan

Turkey's Minister Criticizes U.S.

WASHINGTONTurkey's foreign minister ratcheted up the pressure on the Obama administration to take a tougher stand against Israel Tuesday, saying he was disappointed by what Ankara regards as a slow and tepid response by the international community to the raid by Israeli forces on a flotilla of Turkish aid ships.
Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said he expected the U.S. to more strongly condemn the raid and to put pressure on Israel to release all civilians they are holding, points he would raise with both Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and National Security Adviser James Jones in meetings Tuesday.

"I have to be frank: I am not very happy with the statement from Washington yesterday," Mr. Davutoglu said in a meeting with a small group of reporters here. "We expect a clear condemnation."

The firm stance taken by Turkey could further complicate an already delicate balancing act the Obama administration is conducting in the region, with the White House needing Turkish support for a new round of sanctions against Iran, among other regional priorities.

Mr. Davutoglu didn't link the American response to the Israeli raid to Ankara's support for the sanctions proposal, which Turkey will vote on as a rotating member of the United Nations Security Council.

But he said his government remained opposed to any new sanctions against Iran before serious consideration is given to a Turkish-negotiated deal struck with Tehran last month in which Iran would ship a large amount of nuclear fuel overseas in return for uranium enriched to levels used in medical research.

Mr. Davutoglu expressed disappointment that it took 11 hours for the U.N. Security Council to come up with a statement condemning the raid, a thinly-veiled criticism of the U.S., which worked behind the scenes to weaken some of its language.

"We expect full solidarity with us," Mr. Davutoglu said of the U.S. response. "It should not seem like a choice between Turkey and Israel. It should be a choice between right and wrong, between legal and illegal."

Mr. Davutoglu called the raid a "criminal act," saying that because it occurred in international waters, the ships were sovereign territory that couldn't be legally boarded. He said that the Turkish government had intervened with the nongovernmental organizations behind the flotilla before they approached Israel in hopes that a confrontation could be avoided, but couldn't directly order the groups to desist.

He said that in discussions with the NGOs, the Turkish government had been led to believe the flotilla would approach only Gazan waters, where they would protest Israel's blockade before moving on to Israeli ports to unload their aid.

"We did our best to approach the Turkish NGOs to take this humanitarian aid to other ports," he said. "We cannot control NGOs. Tukrey is a democratic country; we can only try to convince."

Asked whether Turkey would send military forces to protect a second flotilla that is reportedly being organized by the same NGOs, Mr. Davutoglu said no decision had been made, but added he hoped Israel had learned from the incidents not to repeat the raid.

He also called Israel's delay in identifying the dead and wounded "psychological torture," and demanded Israel move quickly to apologize and allow for an international investigation.

"We want Israel to release all of the passengers without questioning, without arresting any of them," he said. "We want to get all the bodies of all the deceased, and also the wounded people, immediately."
Turkey's Foreign Minister Sharply Criticizes U.S. - WSJ.com


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## gurjot

Jana said:


> BUT it does not mean that we should sell our Humanity. Atleast we dont.



this is truth,leave the world .wat pak can alone do in this condition,even with support of other muslim countries.reality is that world quietly support this.this is wat israeli ambassador was saying today.


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## Aslan

gurjot said:


> this is truth,leave the world .wat pak can alone do in this condition,even with support of other muslim countries.reality is that world quietly support this.this is wat israeli ambassador was saying today.



The ambassador was just trying to garner support from india by shooting statements from his back side. I am sure that where ever they are they are telling the same thing to their other audience so that they can gain some sympathies. I am sure that the indian gov is much smarter then to fall in their trap.


----------



## under cover

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> why the post contains the name Talat hussain..is he a nobel winner or a rocket scientist....never came across with this name....



He is the missing link that provides the pakistani crowd here an oppurtunity to connect to that Israel-palstenine issue and hence to openly and disgracefully criticise israel.

I mean "IsraHell" !! What the F is that?? Its a sovereign country just like any other nation and this is a distinguished forum.


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## Solomon2

Ahmad said:


> the truth is that this is not the first incident which have left the hands of israel red with blood


Aha! Now the subject changes to a general case, since the specific one under discussion can no longer be supported. But how many such "bloody hands" episodes also have similar stories behind them? I don't like tooting my own horn - ideally, I think the arguments, evidence, and context stand on their own - but if it wasn't for me, would PDF readers have been exposed to the truth? 



> it has always been like that, everytime they have been defended by americans and supported unconditionally.


Not every time. But _this_ time, why not?


> do you know that there is no enough food for the palestinains?


This was never about food, but about breaking the blockade against weapons and materiel. Israel permits the transit of thousands of tons of humanitarian aid daily. 



> no construcion material is allowed for the gazans to build their demolished homes.


Israel did try, but the materials were used for building bunkers and brand-new homes for Hamas bigwigs instead. Even the Saudis complain about Hamas stealing aid.

Really, if Israel was so mean-spirited as to starve Palestinians to death, don't you think you'd be hearing about it from the West Bank, too?


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## Aslan

under cover said:


> He is the missing link that provides the pakistani crowd here an oppurtunity to connect to that issue and hence to openly and disgracefully criticise israel.
> 
> I mean "IsraHell"!! What the F is that?? Its a sovereign country at the least and this is a distinguished forum.



How shameful and disgusting is all I can say about you rant. You have no respect for human life. Non what so ever, and then you guys preach us about Gandhi, Poor Gandhi.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

under cover said:


> I have no problem in accepting Isreal as a role model. Particularly its prowess in defence technolgy and the fact that it makes its adversary p!ss in its pants whenever confronted.



Hezbollah and Iran I think are changing this reality quite rapidly. A guerilla army with no mechanized armour or air combat facility managed to drive out the technologically superior force.

israel killed civilians. Hezb killed soldiers (fair fight). Politically and to some extent militarily, who had the upper hand 

a country like Lebanon (whose Air force is pretty much non-existent) or Falasteen (which is under blockade --namely in Gaza) cannot defend themselves. 



by the way, you are learning (like the israelis) that defence technology wont always win you wars --especially when you are at war against an unknown perceived enemy --whether its Kashmiris or Palestinians.





> It dares to challenge all the arabs collectively and even has the might to raze whole of arab to dust. In other words most masculine state in the middle east.



yes killing unarmed civilians and illegally occupying land that isnt yours is very masculine


like i said, india and israel are indeed natural allies. You guys think alike. Funny though that your role model is a teeny fraction your size, you are learning from them and they are laughing at you (as was the case during Mumbai fiasco)




> We need to keep biased human right abuse charges from biased islamic media aside. Human rights abuses in china are far greater than that by Israel. yet paksitan sees it in good faith. Similarly Israel can be considered role model for India in totality.



China isnt illegally occupying land that isnt theirs. China isnt in definace of UN resolutions. China isnt uprooting livelihoods and local economies, and engaging in collective punishment on an entire group of people


you can flex your ''muscles'', but in the end --- those who are afraid and terrified of death are naturally at a huge disadvantage.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

under cover said:


> He is the missing link that provides the pakistani crowd here an oppurtunity to connect to that Israel-palstenine issue and hence to openly and disgracefully criticise israel.
> 
> I mean "IsraHell"!! What the F is that?? Its a sovereign country at the least and this is a distinguished forum.



wow what a reply i laugh ..by the way i am good friends of pakistan and indian people here...but my views may be different


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## Solomon2

So what we're back to is my questions: 

Why are Pakistanis allowing themselves to be used like this?

What good does nursing baseless Israel-hatred do for Pakistan?

Why isn't Pakistan standing with, rather than against, Israel?


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## T-Faz

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> why the post contains the name Talat hussain..is he a nobel winner or a rocket scientist....never came across with this name....



He is an executive and high quality journalist of a very liberal and fair news channel.

He isn't like that corrupt 4 foot tall midget with insecurity complexes and a whore for a wife.


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## under cover

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you can flex your ''muscles'', but in the end --- *those who are afraid and terrified of death are naturally at a huge disadvantage.*



Abu sir, Time will tell. BTW from what is visible today, people those who are not afraid and terrified by death, are blowing themselves up amongst innocent public.


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## Aslan

under cover said:


> Abu sir, Time will tell. BTW those who are not terrified by death, blow themselves up between innocent public.



And what about the israeli army blowing up innocent public. I am sure there is a reason for that aint it!!


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## Aslan

ouiouiouiouiouioui said:


> leave gandhi atleast...poor gandhi did not have anything to wear..Levi's Jeans...or Haute Couture trends like you do.......and by the way poor gandhi has nothing to do with israel and palestine..isnt



Well if your tiny brain was not able to comprehend what I was saying its really not my problem. Try reading it again and slowly this time. It might just sink in.........

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> So what we're back to is my questions:
> 
> Why are Pakistanis allowing themselves to be used like this?
> 
> What good does nursing baseless Israel-hatred do for Pakistan?
> 
> Why isn't Pakistan standing with, rather than against, Israel?



I have a question.....
You r american why u love israel? and hate Hamas?
Why u hate Pakistan?
Why u so called retired 1 week back on the excuse of the ban on FB in Pakistan?
Why ur back?

About arse real......
Why they kill Muslims?
Occupy Muslim Lands?
Sent Jets to attack Pakistans n.assets in 98?
Why u supplied arms to india and always are anti Pakistani?
Why ?????u oppose us on every level u can?

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## Pasban

I believe some are conveniently ignoring the fact that,

1) The ship was in the international waters.
2) It was nowhere near the borders or waters of the Gaza strip.
3) The ship was attacked at nighttime.
4) The crew had every right to defend itself when provoked as such.

A much more normal and considerably more civilized action would have been to allow the ship to enter the port (with escort) and examine it and then allow the contents to be sent to the population which is desperately in need of them. This being said, often I feel it's just too much even trying to ask the respective authorities to act in a humane way at minimum.

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## Aslan

The bottom line is that there will have to be alot of international pressure for the israelies to actually stand up and say sorry. And Turks alone cant achieve that, there has to be a united stand by all the Muslim countries, and also they have to get the countries where they can exert any pressure on board. But the chances of that happening looks dim, and the pews will carry on doing what they are doing. Kill and oppress at will. But when the Goliat gets out of hand there is always a David (Daood) to confront him.


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## alibaz

Emperor Palpatine said:


> What really happened was Israel Warned all the ships that it would check the ships of weapons, 1 ship resisted and started attacking the troops which boarded the ships..
> 
> Israel was actually going to allow the convoy to pass through if the convoy was checked for weapons...
> 
> Now don't bash me  this ain't my personal openion..



1 ship resisted with what? The didnn't have any weapons


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## ruv

we all do army men and weman and know that the moral kod of the idf is the best there is and any soldiar has the power to desid what to do and they did come in peace not like the mensineries that came to fightand another fact is that the ship brought alot of medisen that was out of date ,THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT BRINGING AID WE PASS BY OUR SELFS 10 TIMES AS MUCH AID TO GAZA EVRY DAY there problem is with in them,there problem is the hamas


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## Pakz

*'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack*

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## gurjot

Israel to deport all activists seized on Gaza flotilla


Israel to deport all activists seized on Gaza flotilla - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Pakz

*'Israel used to violence and gets away with it' - blogger on Gaza Flotilla raid*


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## TOPGUN

Israeli gov stop killing people ... let people live & let live for GOD's sake join the human race jerks work towards peace and for all you that are supporting israel you need serious mental help or plz get of the drugs you on the world now is seeing it once again in the clear what israel is doing .

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## cabatli_53

In this aspect, Turkey will do nothing militarily against Israel but push the limits of diplomacy to punish the Israel against International community...

Actually, This was a politic move of Turkey. Erdogan also know What Israeli forces may do when the ship was passing out of Israeli territories towards Gazze. The main aim of this secret agenda was like following;

-Drive Israel into corner more against International community and show the barbarity of Israel against civilians to remind to World people about Gazze events again.

-Create a *"new threat"* for the future of Turkey to raise the targets of Turkish defence industry upper, After Gayreece bankrupted. I think You will see *How R&D and defence budgets of Turkey *will be increased thanks to our new rival, Israel in near future.

-Create a reasonable reason for Turkey to earn Uranium enrichement technology to deploy them into warheads with pointing Israel. There is already a plan to re-establish new and modern Atomic research center...


This event will be a breakpoint of relations between Israel and Turkey. After this time, You will see more agressive and sided foreign policies against Israel in ME because Israel spilled Turkish blood in Mediterranean.

If you see great defence cooperation agreements between Syria, Lebanon -Turkey, Do not surprise too much... 


Regards...

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## mr42O

Shame for USA who yet again show there real face by let Isreal do a inquary on there own. ARE U JOKING ? its same as let Osama bin laden decide if he is quilty or not. 

Americans woundring why so much hate for USA among muslims ? Its because of Isreal and Kashmir issue. Its there double standard. Isreal is cancer for world and need to be fixed. 

There is only one way that is give arabs there land back and jews can either go home to EU or live peace fully with arabs.


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## T-Faz

Look at what this *Vande Mataram guy wrote on that Israeli guys page*.



> Welcome to the forum bro, trust me there guys are idiots. All of them here don't give one **** about the LIVES of the Palestinians killed in that attacks.
> 
> They love to talk and say that Israel is a terrorist start... (more rants, personal attacks) to satisfy their egos. Mainly because they find that Israel being a non-Muslim state attacking their muslim-BRO state.
> 
> After seeing things on here, here's a conclusion:
> 
> It's an act of terrorism if you kill their Muslim brothers.
> But it's OKAY and justifiable if you kill an Israeli (which members (er, staff members) here are posting that 10 Isrealis should be killed in turn that 10 Palestinians are killed.
> 
> Long Live Isreal!
> Long Live USA!
> Jai Hind!
> 
> Peace brother!



, learn how to send private messages. What an A hole. The poor Israeli guy ran away.

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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> You need to watch what you're saying sir. Can you justify these accusations you put up? How is Israel the cancer for the world?
> 
> @Jews living PEACEFULLY WITH the arabs???
> It's called the HAMAS. And if it wasn't for them, Israel wouldnta killed 100's of innocent CIVILIANS in December 2008.
> 
> @Just so you know, the United States is on Israel's side because the us there's more than just "Muslim Brother" or not. US knows about the security situation in the middle east.
> 
> Had it not known that, I'm sure by now Obama woulda cut the crap with Israel and forced some sanctions already.



I didnt want to get into another one with the likes of you, but have you been hibernating. Did u really miss the GAZA war and the Lebanon war and the Massacre at the Lebanese camps in the 80s come on man have you not seen any thing. 

Off to sleep will see you guys tom.


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## gurjot

mr42O said:


> Shame for USA who yet again show there real face by let Isreal do a inquary on there own. ARE U JOKING ? its same as let Osama bin laden decide if he is quilty or not.
> 
> Americans woundring why so much hate for USA among muslims ? Its because of Isreal and Kashmir issue. Its there double standard. Isreal is cancer for world and need to be fixed.
> 
> There is only one way that is give arabs there land back and jews can either go home to EU or live peace fully with arabs.



when u.s will leave israel,at that time even iran can handle israel.only thing is u.s and u.s


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## Durran3

> I don't deny that Israel killed these 10 r 20 people on board the ship. Nor do i support THEIR ACTS! But not one even WANTS to understand under what circumstances and WHY they did it.



Not entirely true I am one of the biggest pro-Israel supporters here if you ever read my old posts and was defending Israel when it was defending Gaza from Hamas rockets but would have to disagree in totality with what Israel has done this time..

Now people seriously need to post something new... more than 90 pagws of the same bullshit


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## Vande Mataram

khalidali said:


> I didnt want to get into another one with the likes of you, but have you been hibernating. Did u really miss the GAZA war and the Lebanon war and the Massacre at the Lebanese camps in the 80s come on man have you not seen any thing.
> 
> Off to sleep will see you guys tom.




You seem to have missed my last post:



> @Jews living PEACEFULLY WITH the arabs???
> It's called the HAMAS. And if it wasn't for them, Israel wouldnta killed 100's of innocent CIVILIANS in December 2008.





> Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> On 27 December Israel began a wave of airstrikes against targets within the Gaza Strip with the stated aim of stopping rocket fire from and arms smuggling into the territory. Israeli forces attacked military targets, police stations and government buildings. There was also significant collateral damage. Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against Southern Israel, reaching the major cities of Beersheba and Ashdod for the first time. An Israeli ground invasion began on January 3, 2009.



2006 Lebanon War


> The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. The ambush left five soldiers dead or mortally wounded and two of the soldiers were taken to Lebanon (later known to be dead). Five more were killed in a failed Israeli rescue attempt. Israel responded with massive airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport (which Israel said that Hezbollah used to import weapons and supplies), an air and naval blockade, and a ground invasion of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah then launched more rockets into northern Israel and engaged the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in guerrilla warfare from hardened positions.



1982 Lebeanon War


> The 1982 Lebanon War (Hebrew: &#1502;&#1500;&#1495;&#1502;&#1514; &#1500;&#1489;&#1504;&#1493;&#1503;&#8206;, Milhemet Levanon), (Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1580;&#1578;&#1610;&#1575;&#1581;&#8206;, Al-Ijt&#299;&#257;&#7717;, "the invasion"), called Operation Peace for Galilee (Hebrew: &#1502;&#1489;&#1510;&#1506; &#1513;&#1500;&#1493;&#1501; &#1492;&#1490;&#1500;&#1497;&#1500;, or &#1502;&#1489;&#1510;&#1506; &#1513;&#1500;"&#1490; Mivtsa Shlom HaGalil or Mivtsa Sheleg&#8206 by Israel, and later known in Israel as the Lebanon War and First Lebanon War, began on 6 June 1982, when the Israel Defense Forces invaded southern Lebanon. The Government of Israel decided to launch the military operation after the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov, by the Abu Nidal Organization, a mercenary organization opposed to the PLO.




Actually, according to this Israel was the NON-AGGRESSOR!
The Arabs provoked it!

How does your post make sense at all?
The wars were started by Palestinians!


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## Pakz

Turkish hackers successfully attacked and defaced the official website of Likud, Israel's ruling party! 

They placed anti-Israeli slogans and criticized the recent Israeli attack on the humanitarian aid flotilla. 



Sabah - Hackerlardan Ýsrail'e bombardýman


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## Evil Flare

'Turkish hacker's, Israel's ruling Likud party Olum - xoxmemo - HaCkSpY - Devil_Boy - LegendSemih - TheEnd - Deadly - HaTe - Hydr4 - LifeOrDeath - 1923TURK-GRUP Internet hack'ledi site.

Sloganlarn placed on anti-Israeli sites also in Davos, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said, "You know you kill" that took place as well as Turkish and English.

"Likudnik" site into 'by Turkish hackers replaced the site as well as anti-Israeli slogans, even the clamp attached to the wounded was criticized for the harsh language.


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## TOPGUN

Retrun or citizen israel ... say sorry to the world for your actions stop the killing and join the damn human race and try to live in peace and let live.


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## Unbeliever

For the moment we must realize we don't know what exactly actually happened. 
I for one think this is way to emotionally fueled right now and there is too much propaganda spinning on the airways on both sides to adequately judge this incident.

I included the video mostly to balance out the side that seems to be in the vast majority here, I am not saying it tells the whole story.

For the moment I presume there was wrong doing on both sides that has lead to this tragedy.

One of the more balanced articles I have found:
Deadly Israeli Raid Draws Condemnation
(5 authors from different backgrounds)

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## Pakz

Unbeliever said:


> For the moment we must realize we don't know what exactly actually happened.
> I for one think this is way to emotionally fueled right now and there is too much propaganda spinning on the airways on both sides to adequately judge this incident.
> 
> For the moment I presume there was wrong doing on both sides that has lead to this tragedy.



Can you explain, why Israel is not releasing the rest of footage of people getting killed, They purposely chose the scenes that the world should see.

They intentionally picked those scenes that supported the Israeli propganda.

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## Vande Mataram

Pakz said:


> Can you explain, why Israel is not releasing the rest of footage of people getting killed, They purposely chose the scenes that the world should see.
> 
> They intentionally picked those scenes that supported the Israeli propganda.



This i agree for once. 

Yes, it's about time Israel release the footage of the brutal treatment of these people. 

Even to protect their own security interests, they should try to minimize violence!

I am against the fact that Israeli commandos killed these 20 people so far. But on the contrary I also have another view (what IDF was saying is that these people were violent and provoked the commandos)

we'll wait for more from the investigation.


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## Unbeliever

Pakz said:


> Can you explain, why Israel is not releasing the rest of footage of people getting killed, They purposely chose the scenes that the world should see.
> 
> They intentionally picked those scenes that supported the Israeli propganda.



There is propaganda and picking and choosing on both sides. So much is for sure. However this is a PR and even 'Propaganda' nightmare for Israel with makes it more likely a device by the other side. 

You have to ask yourself how much of the whole incident was purposely provoked by the Palestinian/Turkish side (or a violent subset). Why were there dozens of armed(with knife, clubs and the like), aggressive young extremists among the peaceful helpers on a supposedly purely humanitarian-aid ship? 
The extreme reaction by Turkey also supports that hunch. This is not an excuse to what happened consequently, just an attempt at a possible explanation. 

I'm just speculating. 
As I said it is too early to judge and many questions to both sides including why deadly force had to be used and why the ship was boarded in international waters, which is illegal, remain unanswered.

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## Pakz

Unbeliever said:


> There is propaganda and picking and choosing on both sides. So much is for sure. However this is a PR and even 'Propaganda' nightmare for Israel with makes it more likely a device by the other side.
> 
> You have to ask yourself how much of the whole incident was purposely provoked by the Palestinian/Turkish side (or a violent subset). Why were there dozens of armed(with knife, clubs and the like), aggressive young extremists among the peaceful helpers on a supposedly purely humanitarian-aid ship?
> The extreme reaction by Turkey also supports that hunch. This is not an excuse to what happened consequently, just an attempt at a possible explanation.
> 
> I'm just speculating.
> As I said it is too early to judge and many questions to both sides including why deadly force had to be used and why the ship was boarded in international waters, which is illegal, remain unanswered.



the circumstance leading to the occupants picking up bats is not clear. Did you ever thought about that? Did Israel release full footage leading to the so called riot? How can you come to the conclusion that whole incident was provoked by Turkish/Palestine side?

In my point of view, it was provoked by Israel, after it Stormed the Ship in INTERNATIONAL waters. Again you are speculating that those people were violent from the start. Did you think they could have resisted after some aggression from Israel first.

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## Pakz

Adam Shapiro wife gives detail of Israel aggression, Israel soldiers punched, kicked and were cuffed. 






Check this video


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## adir

Probe reveals flotilla lynchers have ties to Global Jihad
(Video) Interrogation of Gaza aid sail detainees reveals some of passengers recruited specifically to attack Israeli soldiers. Suspects found to be carrying multiple weapons, cash. Meanwhile, Navy launches its own inquiry into raid
Ron Ben-Yishai

VIDEO - The ongoing interrogation of passengers who were aboard the Marmara  the Gaza aid flotilla's flagship  revealed that the majority of those who attacked the Israeli Naval Commandos boarding the ship have direct and indirect Global Jihad ties.

Israel's investigation has revealed some 100 people infiltrated the peace and humanitarian aid activists making their way to Gaza, with the explicit design to attack Israeli soldiers using cold arms
Some among that group are believed to have ties with World Jihad groups, mainly al-Qaeda.

The majority of suspects are Turks, but some are Yemenites and Indonesian. One Yemenite Islamist was photographed with a dagger in his belt prior to the raid.

The suspects are not cooperating with investigators. Most of them have no identification papers, and Israeli authorities are still trying to ascertain their identity.

Nevertheless, it is clear that the majority were recruited by the same IHH handler who organized the flotilla.

IHH is a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation.

Some of the suspects were found to be carrying large sums of money. Others had Kevlar vests and gas masks; and all were found to be carrying weapons such as knives, metal clubs and slingshots.

Several of the suspected were wounded by IDF fire.

Investigators have already concluded that this was the group that planned the violent resistance, which centered on the Marmara's top deck.

Meanwhile, the Israel Navy has launched its own inquiry into the raid. Senior officers told yet events probably went awry when the commandos lost the element of surprise  especially in regards to the people waiting on the top deck. 

A senior IDF official said Tuesday night that "everything should be done in order to gather all the factual data and prove that the humanitarian sail had a semi-military body with a completely different goal."

The officer added that the army was "working on it vigorously. We understand the importance not just for the Navy but for all of us."

Addressing the foreign detainees suspected of beating up Navy fighters during the raid, the officer said, "If we manage to create a criminal case against some people, we should act against them in a proper legal manner."

He denied reports that the IDF did not provide medical aid to the injured foreign activists.

As for the next ship making its way to Gaza, the official said that the method of action would be determined after the lessons of the recent incident are drawn.

Amnon Meranda contributed to this report
<


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## Pasban

adir said:


> Probe reveals flotilla lynchers have ties to Global Jihad
> (Video) Interrogation of Gaza aid sail detainees reveals some of passengers recruited specifically to attack Israeli soldiers. Suspects found to be carrying multiple weapons, cash. Meanwhile, Navy launches its own inquiry into raid
> Ron Ben-Yishai
> 
> VIDEO - The ongoing interrogation of passengers who were aboard the Marmara  the Gaza aid flotilla's flagship  revealed that the majority of those who attacked the Israeli Naval Commandos boarding the ship have direct and indirect Global Jihad ties.
> 
> Israel's investigation has revealed some 100 people infiltrated the peace and humanitarian aid activists making their way to Gaza, with the explicit design to attack Israeli soldiers using cold arms
> Some among that group are believed to have ties with World Jihad groups, mainly al-Qaeda.
> 
> The majority of suspects are Turks, but some are Yemenites and Indonesian. One Yemenite Islamist was photographed with a dagger in his belt prior to the raid.
> 
> The suspects are not cooperating with investigators. Most of them have no identification papers, and Israeli authorities are still trying to ascertain their identity.
> 
> Nevertheless, it is clear that the majority were recruited by the same IHH handler who organized the flotilla.
> 
> IHH is a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation.
> 
> Some of the suspects were found to be carrying large sums of money. Others had Kevlar vests and gas masks; and all were found to be carrying weapons such as knives, metal clubs and slingshots.
> 
> Several of the suspected were wounded by IDF fire.
> 
> Investigators have already concluded that this was the group that planned the violent resistance, which centered on the Marmara's top deck.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Israel Navy has launched its own inquiry into the raid. Senior officers told yet events probably went awry when the commandos lost the element of surprise  especially in regards to the people waiting on the top deck.
> 
> A senior IDF official said Tuesday night that "everything should be done in order to gather all the factual data and prove that the humanitarian sail had a semi-military body with a completely different goal."
> 
> The officer added that the army was "working on it vigorously. We understand the importance not just for the Navy but for all of us."
> 
> Addressing the foreign detainees suspected of beating up Navy fighters during the raid, the officer said, "If we manage to create a criminal case against some people, we should act against them in a proper legal manner."
> 
> He denied reports that the IDF did not provide medical aid to the injured foreign activists.
> 
> As for the next ship making its way to Gaza, the official said that the method of action would be determined after the lessons of the recent incident are drawn.
> 
> Amnon Meranda contributed to this report
> <



Adir, please add the source when you post from websites. Thanks.


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## Usama86

*What the hell... every other idiot is jumping into this discussion. I strongly suggest that this thread and any other thread relating to this topic should be closed by the mods because there is nothing to discuss about. We Muslims from any part of the world cannot accept Israel and what it stands for and in particular this latest misadventour. I dont want to argue with anyone and give explanations of why Israel is a terreroist state. After all this is defence.PK and the least we can do is post an official statement of condemnation of this act instead of fighting like cats and dogs with people who will not understand. Some things just cannot be put up for debate and this issue is one of them. I strongly feel that the mods should take quick action and us members can push by voting for this topic to be closed and one unified statement to be issued. Guys show some sort of unity please. And also very importantly those supporting this Israeli act should be reported for supporting terrorism.... have we come to accept that only muslims are terrorists? we have gotten so brainwashed that we dont even realise that isreal is conducting state terrorism. If we dont stand up and call wrong wrong then we will not be heard. I am new here so if any senior member can kindly make a poll if anyone thinks that what i said carries any weight. *


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## Unbeliever

Pakz said:


> the circumstance leading to the occupants picking up bats is not clear. Did you ever thought about that? Did Israel release full footage leading to the so called riot? How can you come to the conclusion that whole incident was provoked by Turkish/Palestine side?



I didn't come to any conclusions, I said it is also one possible scenario. You did read my post didn't you?  Because there you can read, that yes "I thought about that". 
And I concur, there are many unanswered question. I said so myself. I won't repeat myself again for you though. 



Pakz said:


> ..those people were violent from the start.
> ..they could have resisted after some aggression from Israel first.



Yes, either one or a combination of both is possible. My main point for the moment (not to you specifically) is: "calm down and wait until all the facts come in." 

Some people (as evident from the hundreds of replies) got carried away, some because of anti-zionism that sometimes masks anti-semitism. Usama himself is apparently on a propaganda mission on the internets  

You seem like a sensible guy though Pakz, so I suppose you can see what I mean right?


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## Meengla

Unbeliever said:


> You have to ask yourself how much of the whole incident was purposely provoked by the Palestinian/Turkish side (or a violent subset). Why were there dozens of armed(with knife, clubs and the like), aggressive young extremists among the peaceful helpers on a supposedly purely humanitarian-aid ship?
> The extreme reaction by Turkey also supports that hunch.



Quite apparent you have also bought into the propaganda from Israelis. A few quick notes:
There were young kids on board as well. There were quite a few women and western nationals. There were--get this--even a Holocaust survivor AND an Irish Nobel Peace prize winner. The participants could not have imagined Israelis would be STUPID enough to launch an operation. But the operation was launched in the dark after, undoubtedly, trying to psychologically intimidate the passengers. Then the coward commandoes landed. What would the the passengers do? Let them land in the INTERNATIONAL water and try to take over the ship?! I wish the participants had more than just kitchen knives and had actually done some damage to these racist pirates known as the IDF.

Here...since you are not going to trust a Pakistani blog of impartiality, go ahead and read the Comments at the NYTimes. They are no Muslims but look!

Israel Faces Pressure on Gaza After Raid - Readers' Comments - NYTimes.com

Israeli is so rightly accused and isolated that other than some brainwashed Zionists and hateful Indians support for Israel hardly exists. Here is an excerpt from the above link:



> Paul
> Long Isalnd
> June 1st, 2010
> 9:52 am
> I am shocked at the continued, seemingly endless carnage in the Israel-Palestine conflict. As a Jewish-American I clearly remember my pride at Israel's founding and singing the Hatikvah. But, Israel has clearly lost its way. Its right-wing, pro-settler, pro-ultr-orthodox government forgets that its creation was due to the generosity and sympathy of the world community after WWII. As such it owes, but has ceased to acknowledge, the profound debt, obligation and responsibility it has to be a model, moral world citizen. It has long since given up the moral high-ground. The latest atrocity of the Gaza ghetto it has created makes or should make that clear to the world.
> 
> At this point, I can see no other alternative than the world community insisting on the immediate implementation of the two state solution using (with slight modifications) the 1967 borders. The consequences of a unified UN proclamation to that effect, if ignored, would be complete and total economic and political isolation.
> 
> All I can say is, "Enough!"

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## adir




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## gurjot

i think they are basic cutters ,in ship they are usually found


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## Pakz

Unbeliever said:


> I didn't come to any conclusions, I said it is also one possible scenario. You did read my post didn't you?  Because there you can read, that yes "I thought about that".
> And I concur, there are many unanswered question. I said so myself. I won't repeat myself again for you though.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, either one or a combination of both is possible. My main point for the moment (not to you specifically) is: "calm down and wait until all the facts come in."
> 
> Some people (as evident from the hundreds of replies) got carried away, some because of anti-zionism that sometimes masks anti-semitism. Usama himself is apparently on a propaganda mission on the internets
> 
> You seem like a sensible guy though Pakz, so I suppose you can see what I mean right?



Unbeliever, I got the impression in your previous post that you are defending Israel use of lethal force because the people on flotilla provoked violence first. At least you acknowledge that this is just a speculation. Correct?

Now, my point is that Israel has NO right to storm into a Humanitarian Aid ship with respected journalists and other well-known figures without any pretext. It is acknowledged that the ship was in International waters. The shipped was checked for weapons before hand by Turkish authorities and was certified for not possessing any weapons.

Now about what took place when IDF soldiers came on board is not clear because the full footage is not released by Israel.

However, the accounts of people on board says otherwise.

Check this video I posted before, it shows the viewpoint of a person on board the ship






if you are not biased in your views, then you should look at the whole picture, not some bits of snap shots provided by Israel.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Israel's flotilla raid revives questions of international law​*
By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 1, 2010; 5:57 PM

UNITED NATIONS -- In the two days following its commando raid on an aid flotilla to the Gaza Strip, Israel has been accused by Turkey and several other governments of behaving like an outlaw state, and engaging in acts of piracy and banditry on the high seas.

But has Israel broken any laws?

International law experts differ over the legality of the Israel action, with some asserting that the raid constituted a clear cut violation of the Law of the Sea, while others maintain that Israel can board foreign vessels in international waters as part of a naval blockade in a time of armed conflict. But scholars on both sides of the debate agree that Israel is required by law to respond with the proportional use of force in the face of violent resistance.

The debate has drawn attention to a three-year-long blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt, which has sharply restricted the import of construction materials and other necessities into Gaza. Israel has come under intensive international pressure, including from the United States, to ease the blockade to allow greater flow of goods into Gaza.

Anthony D'Amato, a professor of international law at Northwestern University School of Law is among those who believes the raid was illegal. "That's what freedom of the seas are all about. This is very clear, for a change. I know a lot of prominent Israeli attorneys and I'd be flabbergasted if any of them disagreed with me on this," he said.

But others see the incident differently.

"The Israeli blockade itself against Gaza itself is not illegal, and it's okay for Israeli ships to operate in international waters to enforce it," said Allen Weiner, former State Department lawyer and legal counselor at the American Embassy in the Hague, and now a professor at Stanford Law School. Beyond that, he said, Israel has a legal obligation to allow humanitarian goods into Gaza and to exercise proportionality in the use of force.

Israel maintains that it was clearly within its rights to stop the aid flotilla, saying any state has the right to blockade another state in the midst of an armed conflict.

"We were acting totally within our legal rights. The international law is very clear on this issue," said Mark Regev, spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu. "If you have a declared blockade, publicly declared, legally declared, publicized as international law requires, and someone is trying to break that blockade and though you have warned them . . . you are entitled to intercept even on the high seas, even in international waters."

Regev cited a provision in the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea, which states that merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral states outside neutral waters can be intercepted if they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

*But D'Amato said the document applies to a situation in which the laws of war between states are in force. He said the laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state. He said the law of the Geneva Conventions would apply.*

Human rights organizations, governments and U.N. officials have criticized Israel's enforcement of the blockade as cruel, if not necessarily illegal.

The influential rights advocacy group Human Rights Watch says that Israel is within its right to "control the content and delivery of humanitarian aid, such as to ensure that consignments do not include weapons." But the group said "Israel's continuing blockade of the Gaza Strip, a measure that is depriving its population of food, fuel, and basic services, constitutes a form of collective punishment in violation of article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

Pro-Palestinian advocates have portrayed Israel's activities as illegal, comparing them to President George W. Bush's preemption doctrine. "Israel is now claiming a new international law, invented just for this purpose: the preventive 'right' to capture any naval vessel in international waters if the ship was about to violate a blockade," Phyllis Bennis, a fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies. "That one just about matches George Bush's claim of a preventive 'right' to attack Iraq in 2003 because Baghdad might someday create weapons the U.S. might not like and might use them to threaten some country the U.S. does like."

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said that Israel remains in defiance of U.N. resolutions requiring it to end the blockage. He cited Security Council Resolution 1860, which "calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment."

But the resolution also "welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanism for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid." And Israel maintains that it has been faithfully implementing the resolution by establishing border crossing routes for the delivery of humanitarian assistance.

To resolve the crisis, Davutoglu said Israel must make a "clear and formal apology," accept an independent investigation, release all passengers immediately, return the bodies of all dead passengers and lift what he called the "siege of Gaza." If these demands are not quickly met, he said that Turkey will demand further action from the U.N. Security Council.

He added that Turkey will also bring the matter before NATO. "Citizens of member states were attacked by a country that was not a member of NATO," he said. "We think that should be discussed in NATO."

Staff writer Janine Zacharia in Jerusalem contributed to this report.

washingtonpost.com


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## EyelessInGaza

Do you think that the above is enough to defend a retaliation that resulted in the killing of perhaps 9 people, not by poorly trained police or militia, but by elite Israeli commandos?

I have long been a supporter of Israel my friend, but in this matter I stand on the other side.

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## Meengla

@EyelessInGaza,
I commend your courage. 
This guys @Idir seems incredibly naive to think that showing these 'weapons' will convince anyone that the Flotilla was armed. WTH?! A giant ship carrying 600+ people is likely to have some sharp objects. 

I think I too am about getting done with this. Nice try by the Megaphone brigade but, sorry, you have completely failed to convince anyone here. Heck, as my link above for the NYTimes shows, even Americans are not buying your crap.

*Finally, a word to our Iranian, Turkish and Arab friends here: It is true that a few Indians have more balanced opinions--and being part of a Pakistani blogspace the pressure to conform can be a factor, sadly--most Indian bloggers even here sound not just anti-Pakistan, but anti-Islam. Now, you could be a non-Muslim Iranian like @Nina but you can still see that the blind hatred shown by the Indian bloggers. *


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## EyelessInGaza

Meengla - there's no courage involved my friend. I am trying to see the facts, work on the facts alone and the facts that I see, unless someone can show me other facts, take me to an inescapable conclusion.


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## adir

EyelessInGaza said:


> Meengla - there's no courage involved my friend. I am trying to see the facts, work on the facts alone and the facts that I see, unless someone can show me other facts, take me to an inescapable conclusion.



did you soo the video?


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## Machoman

This is amazing it's palastine land and Israel has to give permission. What a joke. They are not less then hitler I say.


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## EyelessInGaza

adir said:


> did you soo the video?



I did, adir. A few times.

It seemed to show Israeli soldiers being assaulted by people on the ship.

That does not justify 9 lives. 

Your soldiers are elites; they are supposed to be better. 

No debate can rationalize this away.


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## Jigs

EyelessInGaza said:


> I did, adir. A few times.
> 
> It seemed to show Israeli soldiers being assaulted by people on the ship.
> 
> That does not justify 9 lives.
> 
> Your soldiers are elites; they are supposed to be better.
> 
> No debate can rationalize this away.



Also they raided that ship in international waters. That is Illegal. It is like me coming into someones home with guns and when they attack i shoot them in self defense and kill him because he attacked me. That is utterly retarded.


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## Jigs

PM Speaks.

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## EyelessInGaza

Jigs said:


> Also they raided that ship in international waters. That is Illegal. It is like me coming into someones home with guns and when they attack i shoot them in self defense and kill him because he attacked me. That is utterly retarded.



I think there are counter arguments to that; that a nation at war can, on the high seas, intercept a vessel that it thinks is inimical to its interests. Not sure about the exact convention or even if it applies.

However, no argument can counter the end result - armed elite soldiers killing 9 or more men some of whom, from all aspects, were carrying knifes, rods and _slingshots_.

And we're not even sure whether the men killed were armed.


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## Solomon2

Of possible interest:


> There's real pain in Israel today, pain at the humiliation of the flotilla raid, pain on behalf of the injured soldiers, and pain that the geniuses who run this country could not figure out a way to out-smart a bunch of Turkish Islamists and their useful idiot fellow travelers. And no, there is no particular pain felt for the dead on the boat; the video of those peace-seeking peace activists beating on the paintball commandos with metal bars pretty much canceled out whatever feelings of sympathy Israelis might have otherwise felt. Plus, most Israelis are aware, unlike much of the rest of the world, that these ships were not on a humanitarian mission, but a political mission, one meant to lend support to Hamas, which seeks Israel's destruction, so you might have to excuse Israelis for not sympathizing overly much.


link


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## anathema

Adir ..the so called weapons that you have shown are nothing but kitchen and carpentary hardware. If a ship has members on board then there will be kitchen ware to feed them. This is a very pathetic reasoning to justify the death of 9 people by showing these so called weapons. 
Where is the so called stun grenades, guns , etc ?

Dont get me wrong, I admire Israel for their proactivenes in dealing with countries enemies ...which i wish India had the courage to do..however the line between cowardice and bravardo has been crossed. this is pure cowardice and murder....Hope there is some justice in this matter...

On second thoughts Turkey will not be able to do anything till USA decides in favour ...so expect this matter to die out.

RIP

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## TechLahore

^^ Thanks for posting this. I am not surprised that Israelis shed no tears for the innocent people murdered by their soldiers. Par for the course. I don't think this is a revelation to anyone here.


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## Vande Mataram

You saw I was supporting Israel (and taking heat from members here )

But simply what the HELL does those pictures prove?
Carpentry tools?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> Of possible interest:
> link



U never fail to amaze us with stupidity from zoinist b.s.
The activists werent from just turkey but all over the world....the boat was attacked in int water?and yet this nonesense?
Pathetic thoughts of some losers..........also u had quit WHY come back?

To spray salt on wounds?
Or just to support the terrorism of ur israeli brothers just coz ur a jew?blinded with ur religion and its people who act like monsters in form of humans?
SHAME


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## Solomon2

You have altered the history, TL. The video (link posted a few pages back) clearly shows the passengers attacking the boarding party with intent to kill. It's a puzzle to me how you can respect your own words in this matter.

Then again, maybe you don't?

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## Solomon2

PN, it's irrelevant that the ship was in international waters; since they were posing as a humanitarian relief mission, under international law they were obligated to permit the Israelis to board and inspect.



> Pathetic thoughts of some losers


So your sympathies are clear: you value the incident not because you care about the people who died or because you care about Arabs of Gaza, but because you treasure the opportunity to view Zionists as "losers".

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## Vande Mataram

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> U never fail to amaze us with stupidity from zoinist b.s.
> The activists werent from just turkey but all over the world....the boat was attacked in int water?and yet this nonesense?
> Pathetic thoughts of some losers..........also u had quit WHY come back?To fill the gap of ur blasphempous b...d frnd adirs or to spray salt on wounds?
> Or just to support the terrorism of ur israeli brothers just coz ur a jew?blinded with ur religion and its people who act like monsters in form of humans?
> SHAME



Your accusations have no base to them what so ever. Give us proof that contradicts the evidence posted!

Referring to calling Israel a terrorist.
When dealing with countries, one who provokes the conflict is the "terrorist".


@Leave personal remarks aside. It's a bad quality.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

The zionist who occupy and kill are true losers ?YES
And not just for the arabs in gaza but as humans and those who were martyred by israeli state terrorism?i dont expect u to understand tht.
I wish u lived in sam condition as gazans.


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## TechLahore

Solomon2 said:


> You have altered the history, TL. The video (link posted a few pages back) clearly shows the passengers attacking the boarding party with intent to kill. It's a puzzle to me how you can respect your own words in this matter.
> 
> Then again, maybe you don't?



Israeli camera footage is history? God forbid that a nation that sends thugs and killers to other countries to murder and maim would ever come close to being a source of accurate historical accounts.

You see, Solomon2, I have self respect, and that compels me to speak out against israel's murderous rampages. And it is your self respect and sense of humanity which you repeatedly compromise by continuing to defend murderers. 

See Adam Shapiro's interview where he explains that the Israeli murderers descended from the helicopter shooting and one person had already died before the aid workers picked up whatever came into their hands and reacted against the piracy. 

You may trust Israel's lies and perversion of truth - no surprise to us - but the world doesn't. It is ironic that the holocaust survivor was on board the flotilla of peace, while the modern day perpetrators of a new holocaust were busy killing people in cold blood.

The Prime Minister of Turkey responded to the Israeli controlled/israeli released video footage by saying "We are sick of their lies". I echo his words. We are sick of Israel's lies and those who would defend it when it kills in cold blood.

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## Vande Mataram

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The zionist who occupy and kill are true losers ?YES



Let's go back to kindergarten here.

Why did they occupy? why did they kill?

They occupied to check for weapons. (US understands this! why they stopped the boat!)

They killed to protect themselves.
Evidence, scroll a couple pages back and watch the video.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Vande Mataram said:


> Your accusations have no base to them what so ever. Give us proof that contradicts the evidence posted!
> 
> Referring to calling Israel a terrorist.
> When dealing with countries, one who provokes the conflict is the "terrorist".
> 
> 
> @Leave personal remarks aside. It's a bad quality.



Ah look who comes in advocating state terrorism of israel?blinded by the flash of few israeli weapons deals with india...... they say a man is known by the company he keeps..........India and israel?both use terrorism.be it indian occupied kashmir or israhelli occupied gaza?

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## Vande Mataram

TechLahore said:


> You see, Solomon2, I have self respect, and that compels me to speak out against israel's murderous rampages. And it is your self respect and sense of humanity which you repeatedly compromise by continuing to defend murderers.



Disregarding to your other part of comment sir. There's a phrase called "Innocent till proven guilty"

How can you conclude that Israel killed these people for NO reason?
Who cares what the world thinks sir. You don't have independent judgment?

@The Turkish PM is NUTS.


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## Jigs

Vande Mataram said:


> Disregarding to your other part of comment sir. There's a phrase called "Innocent till proven guilty"
> 
> How can you conclude that Israel killed these people for NO reason?
> Who cares what the world thinks sir. You don't have independent judgment?
> 
> @The Turkish PM is NUTS.



So Osama bin Laden is Innocent till proven guilty ? The Turkish PM while i don't support him on other issues is a PM that works off a no Bullsh*t policy. Remember what happened in Davos he isn't a person that fears Israel like many others do.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Jigs thts why erdogan is respected my brothers.
God bless him......and the opposite for our president ameen.

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## Kompromat

National australia radio has said that the few second video that has been posted on youtube has been edited by Israelis to hide the truth.


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## Brotherhood

Vande Mataram said:


> Disregarding to your other part of comment sir. There's a phrase called *"Innocent till proven guilty"*
> 
> How can you conclude that Israel killed these people for NO reason?
> Who cares what the world thinks sir. You don't have independent judgment?
> 
> @The Turkish PM is NUTS.




Hey, Mr genius, you just slap you own face, so by according to you as "innocent till proven guilty" logic, then why the heck from the moment you jump in this thread, you started to defend Israel right the way without hesitation? Yes, this was a heated thread all the way, its on fire since you join in with your flame posts. Stop being a hypocrite, stop pretending to be a nice innocent guy once the mod pop up, you made me feel sick, never had i seen anyone as shameless as you period.

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## Al-zakir

T-Faz said:


> Bastards are laughing and threatening on TV, I especially hate the spokesman for the Israeli prime minister.
> 
> What a shameless nation that acts holier and mightier than others not realising that there servant is the reason why.
> 
> As for that faggy Israeli ambassador to India taking BS, tell him to grow a pair and attack Pakistan tonight.
> 
> Let's see what happens, let's how if these cowards have the gut, all I see them do us bark like a dog with no actions to go with that. The only actions occur are those aginst weaker disadvantaged groups.



Zionist bastards are cowards in nature. Scums has no guts to fight hand to hand like man. All they does is that killed innocent civilian with F16, Tanks or Apache from distance miles. They wet their pants in front of Hezbollah fighters. I remember, Hezbollah were cutting them fags like chicken during last conflict. 

Some one should blow up Zionist ship whenever it shows up in either Arabian or Persian sea next time around.


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## Solomon2

TechLahore said:


> Israeli camera footage is history? God forbid that a nation that sends thugs and killers to other countries to murder and maim would ever come close to being a source of accurate historical accounts... I have self respect, and that compels me -


Precisely! Your sense of self is so overwhelming it has made you blind. Such a man would walk off a cliff, confident that the air would support him! Yet you refuse to countenance that. It spoils your desired world-view.

Why should you command the respect of others, simply because you elevate self-respect into willful blindness?


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## Al-zakir

Vande Mataram said:


> Disregarding to your other part of comment sir. There's a phrase called "Innocent till proven guilty"
> 
> How can you conclude that Israel killed these people for NO reason?
> Who cares what the world thinks sir. You don't have independent judgment?
> 
> @The Turkish PM is NUTS.



What other proof do you need?

Terrorist killer supporter is also terrorist thus it make a terrorist. You shameless bharati blood sucking terrorist. May you rot in hell like rest of your clan. 

No wonder bharatis are hate by subcontinent Muslim.


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## chantpapipart2

Why everyone in muslim world making so much noice over a small incident?


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## Awesome

hahaha, Kitchen knives!!!

Probably taken out from the Galley.


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## Hyde

i am sure you must be laughing yourself by making such a stupid post 

Is this what you came to defend the evil act of your country? 

F-16s vs Kitchen Knives?


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## blain2

Emperor Palpatine said:


> What really happened was Israel Warned all the ships that it would check the ships of weapons, 1 ship resisted and started attacking the troops which boarded the ships..
> 
> Israel was actually going to allow the convoy to pass through if the convoy was checked for weapons...
> 
> Now don't bash me  this ain't my personal openion..



Israel has no right to warn ships that are heading to non-Israeli ports. This is like the Pakistan Navy stopping ships going into Indian ports. There is no legal precedence for this. 

The Israelis boarded the ship wrongfully and they were on the contravening side of the law. The Israelis broke the law. Those on board the ship had full right to not only beat the Israelis but throw them off the boat. Something that nobody would have a problem doing to Somali pirates.

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## blain2

Solomon2 said:


> The IDF video
> 
> 
> Bottom line: most of you have been utterly snookered by the blockade runners of Gaza and their political masters. Those who read this comment and watch the video now know better. What do you have to say for yourselves?



Nothing beyond Israel is on the wrong side of the conflict, yet again! 

Watching the video proves what? Simply that Israeli Navy boarded a non-Israeli ship in "International" waters which was headed to a non-Israeli port of destination.

Israeli Naval operators getting their ***** beaten and thrown overboard in no way provides any justification for the use of lethal force that resulted in 19 dead. The Israelis boarded the ship in international waters. Those who are on board are well within their right to protect themselves from such boarding. This is their right under the law. What law does Israel have on its side to support this act? None whatsoever. 

So what part of illegal is not making sense to the supporters of this illegal action? Israel has no business conducting interdiction of these ships. Its illegal as per the United Nations or any other maritime law in place. 

The former Israeli ambassador to Turkey was on the BBC today and admitted that Israel was on the wrong side of the law. He said the biggest reason for the blunder was that the Israeli forces did not want to carry this operation out during day time in full view of the media. So they conducted the operation around 4:30 a.m. or so local Israeli time. However in order to do so at this time, the Israelis had to leave the Israeli waters and venture into International waters. After this mistake, multiple others were made which culminated in the use of excessive force. 

Gaza blockade tactic has already failed. Had good reason prevailed on the Israeli side, 9 individuals would have been returning home today, alive.

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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> Why everyone in muslim world making so much noice over a small incident?



Why did you make much voice on Mumbai attacks ?

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## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> hahaha, Kitchen knives!!!
> 
> Probably taken out from the Galley.



Weapons of Mass destruction.


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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> Why did you make much voice on Mumbai attacks ?



There is a difference....Mumbai was a terrorist attack on Indian Soil. In this incident israel has given legitimate response to armed attacks by those on the ship. Why they were trying to breach the blockade?


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## Hyde

Black Blood said:


> Weapons of Mass destruction.



no no no these are "Long Range Kitchen Knives" that can be fired from the sea to inside territories of Israel.  thus making a valid reason for Israel to kill these humanitarians/terrorists


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## blain2

chantpapipart2 said:


> Why everyone in muslim world making so much noice over a small incident?



Its not about the small incident. Its about an illegal blockade of shipping to a people who are not under Israel's control. The moment people realize the baseless Israeli stance, they will understand why this is a big issue.

If Israel's security is threatened by Hamas' gun-running then they should have their VBSS teams board the ships to inspect the cargo to ensure Hamas is not importing weapons. However once the inspections are done, these ships should be allowed into the Gaza port. However Israelis are not worried about the shipping of weapons (this is being used as an excuse). The real deal is the urge to choke the Hamas government and render it incapable of governance so the Israelis can play king makers in Gaza again.

Israelis are smart and intelligent people. However what amazes me is that despite the intelligence, they keep on making mistakes that hurt their interests in the long term. When will they realize that caging an already edgy people will bring about more hate and destruction? Its time to realize that military action by Israel has extremely diminishing returns on the diplomatic side. This is slowly dawning upon some on the Israeli side, however its still not enough.

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## SpArK

*Under fire Israel to free activists*

Under fire Israel to free activists - Middle East - Al Jazeera English



Facing mounting international outrage over its raid on an aid flotilla aiming to break its siege on Gaza, Israel has said it will expel all activists seized from the ships and dropped threats to prosecute some of them.

A spokesman for Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said on Tuesday that all activists - 682 people from 35 countries &#8211; "would be deported immediately" in an operation officials said they hoped to complete in 48 hours.

Nine activists were believed to have been killed when Israeli troops, using helicopters and fast dinghies, stormed the Mavi Marmara, the lead vessel of the six-ship convoy dubbed the Freedom Flotilla, on Monday.

The military said it opened fire in self defence when it encountered resistance from activists wielding metal rods and chairs, and released pictures which appeared to show a handful of soldiers being beaten and clubbed by dozens of activists.

Guns pointed

Activists' accounts of what happened began to emerge as the first 45 were deported on Tuesday.

Huseyin Tokalak, the captain of one of the seized ships, told a news conference in Istanbul that an Israeli navy ship threatened to sink his vessel before troops boarded and trained their guns on him and his crew.

"They pointed two guns to the head of each of us," Tokalak said.

After holding more than 10 hours of closed-door talks, the UN Security Council called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards".

It also condemned "those acts which resulted in the loss of ... civilians and many wounded", drawing a sharp response from Israel, which said its foreign minister complained in a telephone call with Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, that it was condemned unfairly for "defensive actions".

'Bloody massacre'

In Turkey, a visibly angry prime minister told parliamentary deputies that Israel should "definitely be punished" for its "bloody massacre" of the activists.

"The time has come for the international community to say 'enough'," said Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who demanded the immediate lifting of "the inhumane embargo on Gaza".

There were signs, however, that the long-term relationship Israel has had with Turkey &#8211; arguably its most important Muslim ally &#8211; would endure.

Ehud Barak, Israel's defence minister, spoke to his Turkish counterpart, Vecdi Gonul, on Tuesday, and they agreed the raid would not affect weapons deals &#8211; among them a planned delivery to Turkey of $183m in Israeli drones this summer - defence officials said on condition of anonymity.

Rafah border opened

Amid the international condemnation, Egypt said it was opening the Rafah border it shares with Gaza for the first time in more than a year, to allow in humanitarian aid after a request from the governing Hamas Palestinian faction.

Egypt, in co-ordination with Israel, has rarely opened the border since Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007 from forces loyal to Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president.

But Israel said it was ready to intercept another aid ship that organisers of the Freedom Flotilla planned to send to the Gaza Strip next week.

Netanyahu convened his security cabinet to debate what Israeli critics called a botched raid, and ministers said the naval blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip would continue.

"The opening of a sea route to Gaza would pose a tremendous risk to the security of our citizens. Therefore we continue a policy of a naval blockade," Netanyahu told his ministers.

Israel's security cabinet said in a statement that it "regrets the fact there were deaths in the incident, but lays full responsibility on those who took violent action that tangibly endangered the lives of Israeli soldiers".

It added: "Israel will continue to defend its citizens against the Hamas terror base," referring to Gaza.

*No US condemnation*

*The bloodshed on Monday also put Israel's tense ties with the US under further strain and placed under scrutiny the relationship between the allies.
*
Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from Istanbul, said Erdogan, in his speech, "mentioned the unmentionable, saying that Israel acts because it has powerful friends".

*The US has, thus far, refused to condemn the Israeli raid, with Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, telling reporters in Washington DC that "the situation from our perspective is very difficult and requires careful, thoughtful responses from all concerned".*

In a telephone call with Erdogan, Barack Obama, the US president, *expressed his condolences for those killed in the raid - four of them Turks - and reiterated US support for an impartial investigation "of the facts surrounding this tragedy", the White House said.*

He also said it was important to find "better ways to provide humanitarian assistance to the people of Gaza without undermining Israel's security" the White House statement added.


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## SpArK

*Israel holding three Canadians after botched raid on flotilla*

(AFP) &#8211; 

OTTAWA, Canada &#8212; Three Canadians are being held by Israeli authorities following a botched raid on an aid flotilla that left nine dead, a Canadian official said Tuesday.

"Three Canadians are being detained in Israel," Catherine Loubier, spokeswoman for Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, told AFP.

"As soon as we learned of this, consular officials were sent to Tel Aviv and are now offering (the trio) consular assistance."

Israel on Tuesday deported dozens of activists and held hundreds more while vowing to block other Gaza-bound ships, as world leaders demanded an investigation into Monday's commando raid in international waters and the swift release of the detainees.

Of the 682 people from 42 countries aboard the six ships that were towed to an Israeli port, 45 agreed to be deported immediately and were flown out Monday and Tuesday, Israeli immigration police spokeswoman Sabine Haddad said.

She said more than 120 Arab nationals were issued deportation orders and handed to military police to be taken to the Jordanian border.

The hundreds still detained apparently refused a demand that they sign a document saying they entered Israel illegally even though the ships were seized in international waters.

Forty-eight activists and six soldiers were being treated in hospitals.

Flotilla organizers said the six ships carried some 10,000 tonnes of aid destined for Gaza, which has suffered a crippling blockade imposed by Israel in 2006 that Egypt has largely backed.


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## SpArK

*Israel holding 40 Britons in desert prison after Gaza flotilla raid*

Israel holding 40 Britons in desert prison after Gaza flotilla raid | World news | The Guardian


Up to 40 Britons were still being held at a prison in the Israeli desert city of Be'er Sheva last night, among nearly 700 foreign nationals from the Gaza flotilla, although Israeli officials said they would be expelled from the country swiftly.

The Israeli prime minister's office issued a statement saying the detainees "would be expelled immediately, according to the procedures set by law". It added: "The interior minister announced that the expulsion will begin this evening, and the assessment is that it can be completed in approximately 48 hours." The Foreign Office said it was seeking "urgent clarification" of the situation.

William Hague, the foreign secretary, said 31 British nationals and another 11 with dual nationality were known to have been detained.

Ahsan Shamruk, believed to be from north London, was named by the Foreign Office as the Briton injured during the attacks. He was reported to be in a stable condition and is being treated in hospital. Shamruk's Facebook page shows that he belongs to groups such as Ship to Gaza, Voice and Echoes of Palestine and the Islamic Human Rights Commission. He is a member of the Viva Palestina group, a UK-registered charity founded by former MP George Galloway.

A Foreign Office spokeswoman said consular staff had visited 29 of the Britons, and the rest were expected to be seen tomorrow. "There have been no complaints about their treatment," she added.

Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 38, is believed to be among those held. Her parents, Patrick and Sally Lort-Phillips, of West Lavington, Wiltshire, called her a "free spirit" who was delivering aid including chemotherapy drugs.

Denis Healey, 55, a marine engineer from Portsmouth, who was captaining the US-flagged Challenger I ship, was on his sixth trip to Gaza. He was imprisoned by the Israeli authorities for seven days in July last year while on a similar mission.

Peter Venner, 63, who runs a wood yard in the Isle of Wight, was in the flotilla, as was British aid worker Alex Harrison, 32, a member of the group Free Gaza. Her father, Adrian, said : "They keep referring to the ships as full of terrorists &#8211; that's not true, these are people who have given up months of their lives and thousands of pounds of their own money. They were carrying aid supplies."

Parveen Yaqub, 39, from Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, who works for Oldham council in Lancashire, is believed to have been on the Mavi Marmara. One of her last entries on Facebook reads: "Something has kicked off; I gotta run up deck."

Gehad Sukkur, 39, from Altrincham, Cheshire, is a married father of three who was originally from Gaza and wanted to deliver aid and see relatives.

Theresa McDermott, 43, a postal worker from Edinburgh, was said to have travelled on three previous voyages to Gaza. Other Britons include Ismail Adam Patel, a father of three from Oadby, Leicester, and chairman of the pro-Palestinian organisation Friends of Al Aqsa. He posted a video on YouTube describing the storming of the ships. Baboo Zanghar, from Bolton, who last year took part in a road convoy to Gaza with Galloway, was delivering &#163;32,000-worth of supplies donated by the town. Kevin Ovenden, 40, from London, an aide to Galloway, is also said to be among those detained.

Ewa Jasiewicz was in the flotilla as part of the Free Gaza Movement. Her sister, Agi Donovan, told Radio 4's World at One: "All of us in the family have been trying to call her and nobody's been able to reach her." Sakir Yildirim, from Fishponds, and Cliff Hanley, from Southville, both Bristol, who were part of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, are also said to be uncontactable.

Several consulates, including British, Dutch, French and Turkish representatives are reported to have visited the detained foreign nationals at Ela prison, Be'er Sheva in southern Israel.

Adalah, the group representing Arab citizens in Israel, is co-ordinating legal representation for detainees.

"We had 10 attorneys at Be'er Sheva prison, who were able to meet with 240 detainees over the course of two hours," said an Adalah representative. Adalah and other organisations have lodged an urgent habeas corpus appeal with the Israeli supreme court, demanding that the names of the hospitalised or killed activists are released.


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## SpArK

*Israel deports Pakistanis, likely to arrive today*

LAHORE/ISLAMABAD: The three Pakistani nationals, who were detained from a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, have been deported to Jordan by Israeli authorities, and are likely to arrive in Pakistan today (Wednesday), a private TV channel quoted Interior Minister Rehman Malik as saying on Tuesday.

Special arrangements have been made to bring back prominent journalist Talat Hussain and his two companions, who are expected to cross over to Jordan within the next 12 hours.

Rehman thanked Interpol Secretary General Ronald K Nobel, Ambassador to the US Hussain Haqqani and Pakistans ambassador to Jordon for their contribution in ensuring the safe recovery of the Pakistanis.

According to an Interior Ministry statement, air tickets are being arranged to bring Talat to Jordan as soon as possible, while Malik directed the FIA to make all necessary arrangements with the assistance of Jordanian Interpol to ensure that the three Pakistanis return soon, the channel added. daily times monitor/tahir niaz


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## blain2

chantpapipart2 said:


> There is a difference....Mumbai was a terrorist attack on Indian Soil. In this incident israel has given legitimate response to armed attacks by those on the ship. Why they were trying to breach the blockade?



Understand the illegality of the blockade first before trying to compare things (I say this agreeing that those who attacked Mumbai 
did so illegally).

Coming to the point on hand, who gave the Israelis the authority to impose a blockade? Its a unilateral action, not supported by anyone in the International community and certainly not by the UN. 

As far as people on those ships are concerned, they have full right under the International law to visit Gaza. Israel was an occupation force before, which in itself was illegal, now they use the precedence of their former occupation to blockade the Gaza port. Both actions are wrong and illegal. 

Israelis have no business hanging around in Gaza's littoral waters and stopping people from arriving.

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## SpArK

*Stop supporting Israel*

*Stop supporting Israel*

*KUALA LUMPUR: The United States cannot continue to support Israel when the country has committed crime, said former Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad.*

The world should prevail upon America to support Israel only when it is doing something right, and not support it when it has committed crime just because it is your ally, he said.

*Dr Mahathir added that passenger ship Rachel Corrie and two other cargo ships were moving towards Gaza.
*
If the Israelis stop them, they will stop and will not go anywhere. They will ask for safe passage because they are in international waters.



They are going into Gaza waters and not into Israeli territory, said Dr Mahathir at a media briefing of Perdana Leadership Foundation and the New Club of Paris roundtable and public dialogues on knowledge economy here yesterday.

In Petaling Jaya, it was made known that the crew and passengers of Rachel Corrie were determined to complete their mission.

In a joint statement issued by Malaysians as well as Irish peace and humanitarian activists on board the vessel, they expressed their condolences for those who were killed or injured by the Israeli navy.

Former journalist Shamsul Akmar relayed the statement via an SMS to Dr Mahathirs secretary Sufi Yusoff.

The team on board Rachel Corrie also appealed to the international community and United Nations to continue demanding from Israel safe passage into Gaza for the flotilla.

Perdana Global Peace Organisation adviser Datuk Mukhriz Mahathir said Israel had no right to keep Malaysian citizens on its territory because Malaysia did not have diplomatic ties with Israel.

He said the attack by the Israeli navy on a civilian ship in international waters was an act of piracy and state terrorism.

There were women, children and elderly people on board the ships, he said.

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## chantpapipart2

blain2 said:


> Its not about the small incident. Its about an illegal blockade of shipping to a people who are not under Israel's control. The moment people realize the baseless Israeli stance, they will understand why this is a big issue.
> 
> If Israel's security is threatened by Hamas' gun-running then they should have their VBSS teams board the ships to inspect the cargo to ensure Hamas is not importing weapons. However once the inspections are done, these ships should be allowed into the Gaza port. However Israelis are not worried about the shipping of weapons (this is being used as an excuse). The real deal is the urge to choke the Hamas government and render it incapable of governance so the Israelis can play king makers in Gaza again.
> 
> Israelis are smart and intelligent people. However what amazes me is that despite the intelligence, they keep on making mistakes that hurt their interests in the long term. When will they realize that caging an already edgy people will bring about more hate and destruction? Its time to realize that military action by Israel has extremely diminishing returns on the diplomatic side. This is slowly dawning upon some on the Israeli side, however its still not enough.



You have presented your argument nicly but why did they attack Israeli soldeirs at the first place. Israel response was inevitable. Moreover, Naval blockade is a legitimate war tactics and can't be considered as a act of terrorism. Israel was within its rights to seize and destroy a ship being sent toward Gazan waters in defiance of an embargo, especially after giving abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement


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## blain2

Israeli government tactic is to obfuscate the truth by bringing into light the point about their soldiers getting their ***** beaten by rods and chairs and then being thrown overboard by civilians. The point that I had made before, and should continually be made is that Israelis are in the wrong in the first place for boarding a Turkish ship in the international waters.

At its simplest, this is like the Somali pirates boarding a cargo ship and upon getting their arses kicked by the crew and passengers, complaining that they were mistreated. What a travesty of justice!!!!!!

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## Kompromat

Vande Mataram said:


> Let's go back to kindergarten here.



And you need to go to a Mental hospital.



> Why did they occupy? why did they kill?



Because they are fascist Murders and Terrorist Zionist regime , this is what they have been doing for 60 years. 

You dont see it because you are an Indian .



> They occupied to check for weapons.



And did they Find any ??



> (US understands this! why they stopped the boat!)



Who the **** is USA ??? krishna ?



> They killed to protect themselves.



You cannot degrade yourself more than that can you , pathetic.



> Evidence, scroll a couple pages back and watch the video.



Provide me the proof that the video is original and Rest of the International media is Bull$hitting.


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## blain2

chantpapipart2 said:


> You have presented your argument nicly but why did they attack Israeli soldeirs at the first place. Israel response was inevitable. Moreover, Naval blockade is a legitimate war tactics and can't be considered as a act of terrorism. Israel was within its rights to seize and destroy a ship being sent toward Gazan waters in defiance of an embargo, especially after giving abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement



Okay what part of "Israeli boarding is illegal" not making sense to you? Would Indians allow Somalis to board their ship in International waters off the Somali coast when the Indians know that Somalis have nothing but ransom in mind? (Those who were on board knew what Israelis wanted to do, which was to arrest them). Well sir, if I am on that boat and I know that I am in international waters and I am being boarded by those who are not welcome on the ship (and the International law supports me) then obviously I will resist their boarding.

Secondly, is there a war going on right now between Hamas and Israel? No! The entire premise for the Israeli action is faulty.

Lastly, for a moment forget that those on board are Muslims and those for whom the aid is going are Muslims. Try to understand this at a human level and you will realize the wrong that is being committed against an entire people. 4 Israeli soldiers are hurt, recuperating and will be back in service in short amount of time. On the other hand, 9 people have lost their lives trying to set a wrong right. This is the gravity of the situation.

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## SpArK

chantpapipart2 said:


> You have presented your argument nicly but why did they attack Israeli soldeirs at the first place. Israel response was inevitable. Moreover, Naval blockade is a legitimate war tactics and can't be considered as a act of terrorism. Israel was within its rights to seize and destroy a ship being sent toward Gazan waters in defiance of an embargo, especially after giving abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement



Dude Gaza is a region recognised by UN which is surrounded by Israel and any aid has to come through sea. It is not a piece of illegal occupied land or something. 







A ship from Turkey has indeed travel through the blockade to reach there. 

There were Britons, canadians etc etc on board. There are hundreds of methods to conduct an operation safely. 

Israel just acted stupid and they thought they can outsmart the world and they are paying/will pay the price of that.

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## chantpapipart2

blain2 said:


> Okay what part of "Israeli boarding is illegal" not making sense to you? Would Indians allow Somalis to board their ship in International waters off the Somali coast when the Indians know that Somalis have nothing but ransom in mind? (Those who were on board knew what Israelis wanted to do, which was to arrest them). Well sir, if I am on that boat and I know that I am in international waters and I am being boarded by those who are not welcome on the ship (and the International law supports me) then obviously I will resist their boarding.
> 
> Secondly, is there a war going on right now between Hamas and Israel? No! The entire premise for the Israeli action is faulty.
> 
> Lastly, for a moment forget that those on board are Muslims and those for whom the aid is going are Muslims. Try to understand this at a human level and you will realize the wrong that is being committed against an entire people. 4 Israeli soldiers are hurt, recuperating and will be back in service in short amount of time. On the other hand, 19 people have lost their lives trying to set a wrong right. This is the gravity of the situation.



First..if they were truly on humanitarian aid mission then why did they resist the Israel action despite knowing that such action will result in slaughter. Israeli soldiers did not use excessive force and instead reacted when they were attacked by the ships passengers. There were six ships and in five of them there was completely peaceful action. 

As far as blockade is concern that was enforced when Hamas declared war on Israel and it still exist. Israel always believe in two eyes for an eye; the entire jaw for a tooth security policy. Probably thats the secret of their survival. 

About loss of life... India has already condemned that and everyone including me regrets that.


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## SpArK

*To all fellow Indian members who are justifying this act of terror i have just one question

Consider another scenario where an Indian Humanitarian Aid ship bound to Myanmar where there is a military regime . If the crew and the ship gets threatened/attacked in the international waters and fearing a disaster , few crewmen take whatever arms they get and gets killed ,would we be saying that the Myanmar military has every right of doing it for the safety of their country???*

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## chantpapipart2

BENNY said:


> *To all fellow members who are justifying this act of terror i have just one question
> 
> Consider another scenario where an Indian Humanitarian Aid ship bound to Myanmar where there is a military regime . If the crew and the ship gets threatened/attacked in the international waters and fearing a disaster , few crewmen take whatever arms they get and gets killed ,would we be saying that the Myanmar military has every right of doing it for the safety of their country???*



Dude, India will never send arms to a place of naval blockade in disguise of humanitarian aid. The flotilla was not a humanitarian mission and that truth about it is coming out. Israel in the past had allowed humanitarian aid to Gaza but not through violence of so-called aid organisation. Israel has given abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement, which had sent the flotilla, that they would not be permitted to sail to Hamas-controlled territory.


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> Dude, * India will never send arms to a place of naval blockade in disguise of humanitarian aid*. The flotilla was not a humanitarian mission and that truth about it is coming out. Israel in the past had allowed humanitarian aid to Gaza but not through violence of so-called aid organisation. Israel has given abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement, which had sent the flotilla, that they would not be permitted to sail to Hamas-controlled territory.



What is the Proof of Weapons on the boat ???


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## Agni 5

Israel has support/backing of big brother USA. 

So called nuclear armed states just node head with just one phone call from USA.

No one can touch Israel. It is just empty pot sound and chest thumping.

I am not supporting what Israel is doing. But they have every right to self existence.


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## SpArK

chantpapipart2 said:


> Dude, India will never send arms to a place of naval blockade in disguise of humanitarian aid. The flotilla was not a humanitarian mission and that truth about it is coming out. Israel in the past had allowed humanitarian aid to Gaza but not through violence of so-called aid organisation. Israel has given abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement, which had sent the flotilla, that they would not be permitted to sail to Hamas-controlled territory.



Where the fcuk did u see arms in that ship.. all they can find was few knives which are there in any ship as they have to feed the people in the ship and they do have big kitchens..


*If it wasnt for a humanitarian mission prove me otherwise and show me some guns. grenades, missiles , drugs or at-least some packets of cigarettes.*

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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> What is the Proof of Weapons on the boat ???



If they were not hiding anything and there was nothing suspicious then why did they attack Israeli soldiers???


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> If they were not hiding anything and there was nothing suspicious then why did they attack Israeli soldiers???



Show me the Fuk!ng arms on the boat or shut the **** up !


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## chantpapipart2

BENNY said:


> Where the fcuk did u see arms in that ship.. all they can find was few knives which are there in any ship as they have to feed the people in the ship and they do have big kitchens..
> 
> 
> *If it wasnt for a humanitarian mission prove me otherwise and show me some guns. grenades, missiles , drugs or at-least some packets of cigarettes.*



Where did the hamas gets their weapons from???


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## SpArK

chantpapipart2 said:


> If they were not hiding anything and there was nothing suspicious then why did they attack Israeli soldiers???



*Answer is simple- because they were Israelis.*

*Now tell me how much you know about the various nationalities inside the ship when it was attacked/confronted.*


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## SpArK

chantpapipart2 said:


> Where did the hamas gets their weapons from???



*I have no idea as i am interested in talking about the ship incident only.*


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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> Show me the Fuk!ng arms on the boat or shut the **** up !



Did I abuse u??? Participate in the debate in civilised manner or you may leave.


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## Agni 5

BENNY said:


> *I have no idea as i am interested in talking about the ship incident only.*



Who knows this ship might not have weapons. If it was successful Hamas could have tried to bring arms follow up ships.

Israel is effected by hamas and they know better about hamas then us.

Instead of killing, Israel could have searched the ship for weapons.


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## Comet

@BB 
Its no use, they coming back again with the same arguments. And we have been moving in round and round in circles all the time.


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## chantpapipart2

BENNY said:


> *Answer is simple- because they were Israelis.*
> 
> *Now tell me how much you know about the various nationalities inside the ship when it was attacked/confronted.*




If *Answer is simple- because they were Israelis* the response was obvious because they were going to gaza. 

Nationality doesn't matter motive does. 

Do you know about nationality of 9/11 terrorist?


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## SpArK

Agni 5 said:


> Who knows this ship might not have weapons. If it was successful Hamas could have tried to bring arms follow up ships.
> 
> Israel is effected by hamas and they know better about hamas then us.
> 
> Instead of killing, Israel could have searched the ship for weapons.



*Israel knows* as the ship is in its custody after the incident and so far nothing of that came up. I will take back all my words if they find something inside the ship as they feared until then their act is nothing but what the Somalian pirates do.


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## chantpapipart2

Agni 5 said:


> Instead of killing, Israel could have searched the ship for weapons.



Thats the point.. they were trying to search the ship when they were challanged and attacked.


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## Agni 5

chantpapipart2 said:


> Thats the point.. they were trying to search the ship when they were challanged and attacked.




You have point. Yes Instead of attacking Israel commands, they should have allowed to search the ship by Israel.


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## SpArK

chantpapipart2 said:


> If *Answer is simple- because they were Israelis* the response was obvious because they were going to gaza.
> 
> Nationality doesn't matter motive does.
> 
> Do you know about nationality of 9/11 terrorist?



OK how much sure was you about the motive.

Try to understand some basic facts. Gaza is a small strip, it has to depend on aid and helps to sustain its people/livelihood as it is surrounded by Israel on one side and sea and egypt on the other side. Blocking UN and all other aid in the name of blockade is a serious offense to humanity itself.



> Do you know about nationality of 9/11 terrorist?




People from Congo?? Aliens??..

That topic is unrelated.


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## SpArK

Agni 5 said:


> You have point. Yes Instead of attacking Israel commands, they should have allowed to search the ship by Israel.



Dude, the *level of comfort* with Israelis are not the same as you think. The world recognizes that Israel has done serious atrocities against people of Palestine including India. People tends to get *panic*ked if some helicopter lands with military in International waters. They might have felt *they were being* attacked and they might have tried to resist as most people with *balls* do.


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## fallstuff

chantpapipart2 said:


> Dude, India will never send arms to a place of naval blockade in disguise of humanitarian aid. The flotilla was not a humanitarian mission and that truth about it is coming out. Israel in the past had allowed humanitarian aid to Gaza but not through violence of so-called aid organisation. Israel has given abundant warnings to leaders of the largely Turkish-based Free Gaza Movement, which had sent the flotilla, that they would not be permitted to sail to Hamas-controlled territory.



Canada just called Indian military a violent anti-human force. Now the world is condemning Israel for this cold blooded attack except for the usual suspects. The need to bond with each other comes naturally for this two nations.

Note to the Indian foot lickers, there is no honor among thieves.


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> Did I abuse u??? Participate in the debate in civilised manner or you may leave.



Answer the Question!


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## rameez ahmed

Agni 5 said:


> Israel has support/backing of big brother USA.
> 
> So called nuclear armed states just node head with just one phone call from USA.
> 
> No one can touch Israel. It is just empty pot sound and chest thumping.
> 
> I am not supporting what Israel is doing. But they have every right to self existence.



The big powers are only of names.. You can how Taliban has dealt with US and NATO in Afghnistan... Almost 9 years and US is not in any shape of claiming Victory....

The Holy Prophet (SA) said about the Jews in the Holy Land that 

*"Surely you will fight the jews and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the Stones will speak O MUSLIM !!! there is a Jew standing behind me . So come and kill him"*​
(sahih Bukhari)

He knew that 1400 years ago that the jews will come to holy the Holy land With their terrorism. He said this to only those Jews who are spreading terrorism in the holy .. The jews of Holy land who are supporting the State of Israel has this fate I have stated...


They have the right to live but not at the cost of the lives of innocent Palestinians and their children . Israeli soldiers don't eve leave the child of even FOUR years , who even have no idea of the Conflict...

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## SpArK

fallstuff said:


> Canada just called Indian military a violent anti-human force. Now the world is condemning Israel for this cold blooded attack except for the usual suspects. The need to bond with each other comes naturally for this two nations.
> 
> Note to the Indian foot lickers, their is no honor among thieves.



*Dude there is another thread going about that topic. i can give you links of that. save your hatred to be showered in that one.*

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## chantpapipart2

BENNY said:


> OK how much sure was you about the motive.
> 
> Try to understand some basic facts. Gaza is a small strip, it has to depend on aid and helps to sustain its people/livelihood as it is surrounded by Israel on one side and sea and egypt on the other side. Blocking UN and all other aid in the name of blockade is a serious offense to humanity itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People from Congo?? Aliens??..
> 
> That topic is unrelated.




Israel in the past did allow humanitarian aid to pass though. But that can't be done without checking. That exactly they were trying to do when they were attacked. Suppose you are going through checking at the airport and you slap the cop and try to run. what will be the response of the authorities... they will shoot you on the head. 

Israel has recorded 10,000 rocket attacks in last 4 yrs. Where did that ammuniation comes from if gaza is landlocked..


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## Agni 5

BENNY said:


> Dude, the *level of comfort* with Israelis are not the same as you think. The world recognizes that Israel has done serious atrocities against people of Palestine including India. People tends to get *panic*ked if some helicopter lands with military in International waters. They might have felt *they were being* attacked and they might have tried to resist as most people with *balls* do.



Do you know fighters from all over landed in afghanistan to defeat USSR? You never know what peoples are. Some people in fishing boats landed in Mumbai also in 26/11. Do you forgot what they did?


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## chantpapipart2

fallstuff said:


> Canada just called Indian military a violent anti-human force. Now the world is condemning Israel for this cold blooded attack except for the usual suspects. The need to bond with each other comes naturally for this two nations.
> 
> Note to the Indian foot lickers, there is no honor among thieves.




Please get your self updated... Canada has just retracted from thier statement and said they have great respect for Indian armed forces.

More than canada you should respect Indian armed forces for your independence.. Mind it.


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## Kompromat

umairp said:


> @BB
> Its no use, they coming back again with the same arguments. And we have been moving in round and round in circles all the time.



Why dont you tell this to these Morons ??

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

*chantpapipart2*

I am still waiting for you to show me those damn weapons !


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## SpArK

chantpapipart2 said:


> Israel in the past did allow humanitarian aid to pass though. But that can't be done without checking. That exactly they were trying to do when they were attacked. Suppose you are going through checking at the airport and you slap the cop and try to run. what will be the response of the authorities... they will shoot you on the head.
> 
> Israel has recorded 10,000 rocket attacks in last 4 yrs. Where did that ammuniation comes from if gaza is landlocked..



Since you have brought the 10000 rocket figures lemme tell you the casualties of these rocket attacks

2006-4
2007-7
2008- 8
2009-none
2010-1

That means 20 people have died from these 10000 rocket attacks..

Now compare it with palestinian deaths from Israeli attacks and you will be amazed..

Its interesting as atleast 2 million people die every year due to mosquitos alone in this world when we compare it to rocket attacks.

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## Comet

Black Blood said:


> Why dont you tell this to these Morons ??



I have been saying this but they don't listen.
They wont come with any proof but will continue to repeat the same arguments again and again.


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## fallstuff

Hmm so I am in my home just chilling with my homies and pursuing happiness. Then at the twilight hours thugs attack the house. We beat'em up, but the a**holes pull guns and kill a few of us. 

Now the charge is why did I defend myself. Had we not defended, this just would have been a simple robbery, kinda like stealing candy from kids.

Only thugs and their cohorts come up arguments like this, oh yeah, the boot lickers too.

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## chantpapipart2

BENNY said:


> Since you have brought the 10000 rocket figures lemme tell you the casualties of these rocket attacks
> 
> 2006-4
> 2007-7
> 2008- 8
> 2009-none
> 2010-1
> 
> That means 20 people have died from these 10000 rocket attacks..
> 
> Now compare it with palestinian deaths from Israeli attacks and you will be amazed..
> 
> Its interesting as atleast 2 million people die every year due to mosquitos alone in this world when we compare it to rocket attacks.



Ohhh If they are bad at thier work its not Israel's fault. They tried thier level best to kill innocent people. Casualty figure is less because rockets were unguided. 

Going by your logic, US should not have started WoT because only 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 that is far less than 2mill from mallaria. 

Pakistan should recall its army from WoT because only 2000 people have been killed in act of terrorism. Wierd logic


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## Agni 5

fallstuff said:


> Hmm so I am in my home just chilling with my homies and pursuing happiness. Then at the twilight hours thugs attack the house. We beat'em up, but the a**holes pull guns and kill a few of us.
> 
> Now the charge is why did I defend myself. Had we not defended, this just would have been a simple robbery, kinda like stealing candy from kids.
> 
> Only thugs and their cohorts come up arguments like this, oh yeah, the boot lickers too.



That is not exact story. It goes like this.

You are enjoying at your home. Some people put up a tent next your house and want to invade break security perimeter of yours. 

What you do? you wanted to check what is there in the tent next to you. When you tried to check the tent the people in the tent attacked you. What you do?


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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> Why dont you tell this to these Morons ??
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------
> 
> *chantpapipart2*
> 
> I am still waiting for you to show me those damn weapons !



If there ware no weapons why did they attack soldiers????


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## chantpapipart2

Agni 5 said:


> That is not exact story. It goes like this.
> 
> You are enjoying at your home. Some people put up a tent next your house and want to invade break security perimeter of yours.
> 
> What you do? you wanted to check what is there in the tent next to you. When you tried to check the tent the people in the tent attacked you. What you do?


Great response....


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## asq

And the story does not end after the illegal boarding by Israeli soldiers. Israelis are interviewing those arrested and is forcing them to sign papers saying they entered Israeli waters illegally.

They were arrested in international waters.


Why lie again and again.


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## asq

chantpapipart2 said:


> Great response....



Very strange Indian spin. And to boot trolling at its worst.


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## Agni 5

asq said:


> And the story does not end after the illegal boarding by Israeli soldiers. Israelis are interviewing those arrested and is forcing them to sign papers saying they entered Israeli waters illegally.
> 
> They were arrested in international waters.
> 
> 
> Why lie again and again.



And what are they doing in international water close to Israel border?

Knowing that Israel has naval blockade on Gaza.


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## Kompromat

umairp said:


> I have been saying this but they don't listen.
> They wont come with any proof but will continue to repeat the same arguments again and again.



Then we need to bring their brains to level.


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## chantpapipart2

Agni 5 said:


> And what are they doing in international water close to Israel border?
> 
> Knowing that Israel has naval blockade on Gaza.



In reality, they were carrying arms for the terrorism against Israel


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> In reality, they were carrying arms for the terrorism against Israel



Show me the Damn arms !!


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## chantpapipart2

If there ware no weapons why did they attack soldiers????


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> If there ware no weapons why did they attack soldiers????



No , The soldiers attacked them by boarding their peaceful boat in the international waters.

Whole world is saying that and here you are with one dumb mind of yours .

BTW i have reported you to the management , if you wont show me the Weapons on board you will no longer be on this forum.


----------



## Comet

chantpapipart2 said:


> *In reality*, they were carrying arms for the terrorism against Israel



Prove this reality


----------



## Kompromat

umairp said:


> Prove this reality



He has none , he is just BullS!tting.


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## Awesome

chantpapipart2 said:


> If there ware no weapons why did they attack soldiers????


The soldiers attacked them! Soldiers were on their boat, not the other way round.


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## Comet

Twitter: 

Rehman Malik
I was happy to talk to Talat a while ago, and feel relieved that he, along with the other 2 Pak nationals, will be back home soon.


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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> No , The soldiers attacked them by boarding their peaceful boat in the international waters.
> 
> Whole world is saying that and here you are with one dumb mind of yours .
> 
> BTW i have reported you to the management , if you wont show me the Weapons on board you will no longer be on this forum.




I can see desperation of losing an argument in your response. If you can't put up a better response then don't cry like a child.


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## fallstuff

chantpapipart2 said:


> Please get your self updated... Canada has just retracted from thier statement and said they have great respect for Indian armed forces.
> 
> More than canada you should respect Indian armed forces for your independence.. Mind it.



Indian armed forces stole everything including the kitchen sink. 

Your govt. destroyed the records of 1971 fearing the likes of you may become enlightened from knowing the facts.


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> I can see desperation of losing an argument in your response. If you can't put up a better response then don't cry like a child.



Do not go off topic , show me the Damn weapons or get ready to take a rest.


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## Awesome

Agni 5 said:


> And what are they doing in international water close to Israel border?
> 
> Knowing that Israel has naval blockade on Gaza.


The UN has not sanctioned this naval blockade, they were going to Palestine, not Israel.


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## Agni 5

Black Blood said:


> No , The soldiers attacked them by boarding their peaceful boat in the international waters.
> 
> Whole world is saying that and here you are with one dumb mind of yours .
> 
> BTW i have reported you to the management , if you wont show me the Weapons on board you will no longer be on this forum.



Forget about weapons are there on the ship or not. 

You have gun, I see that you are holding gun. If I try to attack you with Iron rod, what will you do?


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## chantpapipart2

Asim Aquil said:


> The soldiers attacked them! Soldiers were on their boat, not the other way round.



soldiers were just checking the boat when they were challanged and attacked.


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## Awesome

chantpapipart2 said:


> I can see desperation of losing an argument in your response. If you can't put up a better response then don't cry like a child.


Actually you're clutching at strawmans. 

I think Turkey should send in 10 more boats with aid to feed and help out the Palestiniians. Pakistan should join in! This might is right BS has to end.

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## fallstuff

chantpapipart2 said:


> I can see desperation of losing an argument in your response. If you can't put up a better response then don't cry like a child.



Actually you need to go back to the abyss, commonly known as BR, the land of trolls.


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## chantpapipart2

fallstuff said:


> Indian armed forces stole everything including the kitchen sink.
> 
> Your govt. destroyed the records of 1971 fearing the likes of you may become enlightened from knowing the facts.




Why don't you ask you Govt to public thier records? Let the truth comes out


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## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually you're clutching at strawmans.
> 
> I think Turkey should send in 10 more boats with aid to feed and help out the Palestiniians. Pakistan should join in! This might is right BS has to end.



Escorted by Turkish Naval fleet

BTW Asim you need to check some IP's , i think some people here belong to Til aviv.


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## Awesome

Agni 5 said:


> Forget about weapons are there on the ship or not.
> 
> You have gun, I see that you are holding gun. If I try to attack you with Iron rod, what will you do?


Dude just STFU, BS arguments, Israelis have no right to be on a foreign boat, headed onto non-Israeli territory.

I say take 10 more ships next time see how many hostages they can take!


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## IndianArmy

If Israel had intentions to kill, why send commandos, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...


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## chantpapipart2

Asim Aquil said:


> Actually you're clutching at strawmans.
> 
> I think Turkey should send in 10 more boats with aid to feed and help out the Palestiniians. Pakistan should join in! This might is right BS has to end.




The Israel's response will remain same even then


----------



## Kompromat

Agni 5 said:


> Forget about weapons are there on the ship or not.
> 
> You have gun, I see that you are holding gun. If I try to attack you with Iron rod, what will you do?



And if i land in your house from a helicopter with an M4A1 in my hand what would you do?


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## Agni 5

IndianArmy said:


> If Israel had intentions to kill, why send commandos, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...



Good point.

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------




Black Blood said:


> And if i land in your house from a helicopter with an M4A1 in my hand what would you do?



Ship not their house. What are they doing there?


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## Awesome

Black Blood said:


> Escorted by Turkish Naval fleet
> 
> BTW Asim you need to check some IP's , i think some people here belong to Til aviv.


I think since Pakistanis were endangered by the Israelis the President of Pakistan and that of Turkey should jointly go on a boat to Gaza and help feed and cloth the Palestinians.

Lets see if the Israelis have the guts to take hostage the heads of state of two military mights.

After that, Israelis would have to play catch with our missiles...

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## TaimiKhan

IndianArmy said:


> If Israel had intentions to kill, why send commandos, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...



Coming such comments from you are surprising, as being an ex-major you would have understood that the ship's passengers had the right to defend themselves while they *were in international waters*.

They angels of death had no justification to board the ships, and if they did, then the passenger did the right thing as the commandos were the intruders and they shot unarmed civilians who were defending their turf in international waters.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## fallstuff

Black Blood said:


> And if i land in your house from a helicopter with an M4A1 in my hand what would you do?



The most likely scenario, he will probably soil his pants. 

My apology to the Mods.


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## Kompromat

IndianArmy said:


> If Israel had intentions to kill, why send commandos, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...



The question is not what israel's intentions were .

The question is:

Why DID Israel stormed a boat far away from their waters in international territories , descended Armed Commandos on unarmed International journalists and aid workers.

The boat was Cleared by Turkish authorities in presence of International media including Al jazeera and Australian media.
Whole world knew that the boat is going to gaza .

You give me the answers to this question and if you support Zionist state on this act of terrorism , i must say i am disappointed.


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## Awesome

IndianArmy said:


> If Israel had intentions to kill, why send commandos, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...


Yes they have very noble intentions, keeping an entire country hungry through a blockade. If they had noble intentions they should have come aboard unarmed after talking with the captain of the boat.


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## Awesome

chantpapipart2 said:


> The Israel's response will remain same even then


And after that? They will be trying to take hostage our incoming flying missiles.


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## TaimiKhan

I am very surprised at the loyalty the Indians have shown to Israel and supported them killing the innocent in this thread. 

Even the Israelis would have been shocked the way Indians have shown their support,, well what else can be expected. 

Israelis kill innocents without remorse, Indians have done the same for years now and both have killed thousands without any kind of remorse, rather justify it through their baseless mambo jumbo. 

Can see the link.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Kompromat

fallstuff said:


> The most likely scenario, he will probably soil his pants.
> 
> My apology to the Mods.



The trouble is that some Indian fellows have serious mental issues and they cannot understand something called "The common sense".

They keep repeating their baseless BS again and again , there were arms on the boat

Where the "F" are they , show me that i can accept !


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## IndianArmy

TaimiKhan said:


> Coming such comments from you are surprising, as being an ex-major you would have understood that the ship's passengers had the right to defend themselves while they *were in international waters*.
> 
> They angels of death had no justification to board the ships, and if they did, then the passenger did the right thing as the commandos were the intruders and they shot unarmed civilians who were defending their turf in international waters.



Iam not defending anyone...But arguing to get my doubts clear.... I stick what my country said and thats final to me, My country condemns the attack and so do we....

Taimi sir, You please clarify it for me..... As I know being an Army major, No one would send commandos inside a ship unless otherwise there is a need for Search or hostage rescue, but for incidents such as these, I dont think anyone would send commandos in....

But the activists harmed them even before Knowing there Intentions and that I feel bad aswell.... 

Iam Taught to discuss Both good and bad sides of the same coin, Killing Is an Act of crime, Iam asking You why did they have to??? as Per my points above its 60% favoring the israelis


----------



## Comet

IndianArmy said:


> If Israel had intentions to kill, *why send commandos*, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...



Although, I am not keeping record but this argument has come at least a dozen times before.

*why send commandos???* why on earth did Israel sent commandos on board a ship that coming from one place and going to another? that too in International Waters?


----------



## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> And after that? They will be trying to take hostage our incoming flying missiles.



Indians will send their mythical birds to catch them


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## IndianArmy

Asim Aquil said:


> Yes they have very noble intentions, keeping an entire country hungry through a blockade. If they had noble intentions they should have come aboard unarmed after talking with the captain of the boat.



They had already said to the world, they they would not allow any aid to reach the ghaza


----------



## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> I think since Pakistanis were endangered by the Israelis the President of Pakistan and that of Turkey should jointly go on a boat to Gaza and help feed and cloth the Palestinians.
> 
> Lets see if the Israelis have the guts to take hostage the heads of state of two military mights.
> 
> After that, Israelis would have to play catch with our missiles...



*IF* Pakistan and Turkey take a stand on this issue , Zionists would be Pi$$!ng in their panties as they know we wont issue a warning as they never did when Killing our people in cold blood.

---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------




IndianArmy said:


> They had already said to the world, they they would not allow any aid to reach the ghaza



*Why NOT ?????????*


----------



## Comet

Asim Aquil said:


> I think since Pakistanis were endangered by the Israelis the President of Pakistan and that of Turkey should jointly go on a boat to Gaza and help feed and cloth the Palestinians.
> 
> Lets see if the Israelis have the guts to take hostage the heads of state of two military mights.
> 
> After that, Israelis would have to play catch with our missiles...



Very well said.


----------



## Kompromat

Agni 5 said:


> Good point.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Ship not their house. What are they doing there?



Feeding the hungry and were in International waters when intercepted !

Now tell me what would you do ?


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## IndianArmy

Black Blood said:


> *Why NOT ?????????*



I have no Idea, Thats why I hate that attack.... But in that ship, they found Weapons aswell, Could You clarify a bit


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## IndianArmy

umairp said:


> Although, I am not keeping record but this argument has come at least a dozen times before.
> 
> *why send commandos???* why on earth did Israel sent commandos on board a ship that coming from one place and going to another? that too in International Waters?



Probably to search whats Inside...


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## Kompromat

IndianArmy said:


> I have no Idea, Thats why I hate that attack.... But in that ship, *they found Weapons aswell,* Could You clarify a bit



Can you show me where were are those weapons ?

Dont tell me you believe those kitchen knives


----------



## TaimiKhan

IndianArmy said:


> Iam not defending anyone...But arguing to get my doubts clear.... I stick what my country said and thats final to me, My country condemns the attack and so do we....
> 
> Taimi sir, You please clarify it for me..... As I know being an Army major, No one would send commandos inside a ship unless otherwise there is a need for Search or hostage rescue, but for incidents such as these, I dont think anyone would send commandos in....
> 
> But the activists harmed them even before Knowing there Intentions and that I feel bad aswell....
> 
> Iam Taught to discuss Both good and bad sides of the same coin, Killing Is an Act of crime, Iam asking You why did they have to??? as Per my points above its 60% favoring the israelis



Yeah, Indians always favor the Israelis, we have seen that in the past, and this thread and the support shown by the Indians favoring Israeli in killing innocents is very clear to show what Indians have in their heart for them. 

As said, Israel had no justification in boarding the ships in international waters. 

Everyone knew it had aid in it, not weapons. 

Anyhow am done with you guys, as discussing further is futile, i have seen the attitude of the Indians and their support of Israel to kill the innocents, its disgusting.


----------



## Kompromat

IndianArmy said:


> Probably to search whats Inside...



The Boat waved a *White Flag* and they got their dozens killed , i wonder what would have happened if they didn't wave they flag.

They were peaceful if not Turkish Navy would have escorted them , the footage provided by Israelis is *Fake* according to an Australian National Radio broadcast as There were 5 Australians on board and one was shot in the leg by Israelis.

Israel's track record is evident of what they do , they are Morons !


----------



## Comet

IndianArmy said:


> Probably to search whats Inside...



Ever heard of the word "*Jurisdiction*" ?


----------



## Awesome

IndianArmy said:


> They had already said to the world, they they would not allow any aid to reach the ghaza


They are not the mai-baaps of the world. They have to listen to the world, not the other way round.

I say send 10 more ships, somebody has to break this might is right cycle.


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## Agni 5

Black Blood said:


> The Boat waved a *White Flag* and they got their dozens killed , i wonder what would have happened if they didn't wave they flag.
> 
> They were peaceful if not Turkish Navy would have escorted them , the footage provided by Israelis is *Fake* according to an Australian National Radio broadcast as There were 5 Australians on board and one was shot in the leg by Israelis.
> 
> Israel's track record is evident of what they do , they are Morons !



They attacked with Iron rods after waving white flag!!


----------



## Agni 5

Asim Aquil said:


> They are not the mai-baaps of the world. They have to listen to the world, not the other way round.
> 
> I say send 10 more ships, somebody has to break this might is right cycle.



You are missing USA from the equations. Some country piss in their pants when USA makes just a phone call.


----------



## fallstuff

Black Blood said:


> The trouble is that some Indian fellows have serious mental issues and they cannot understand something called "The common sense".
> 
> They keep repeating their baseless BS again and again , there were arms on the boat
> 
> Where the "F" are they , show me that i can accept !



Some of these posters do it just to get under your skin. 

The ones licking it like there in no tomorrow strongly believes it will bear fruit. If you keep saying it will eventually substitute the facts, classic Goebles(Nazi) propaganda.


----------



## IndianArmy

TaimiKhan said:


> Yeah, Indians always favor the Israelis, we have seen that in the past, and this thread and the support shown by the Indians favoring Israeli in killing innocents is very clear to show what Indians have in their heart for them.
> 
> As said, Israel had no justification in boarding the ships in international waters.
> 
> Everyone knew it had aid in it, not weapons.
> 
> Anyhow am done with you guys, as discussing further is futile, i have seen the attitude of the Indians and their support of Israel to kill the innocents, its disgusting.



You have caught the wrong side of the coin sir, Justifying Israels action, I hope not... But arguing the intentions behind the attack, yes.... The activists must not have attacked without knowing there Intentions, which Made them Go mad and Open fire.....

A highly trained Defense organization like Israel would never Let Commandos inside a ship if there intentions were to kill....they would have tried to blockade the ship, and tried to search.... Again Iam not justifying, But see what led them to do so.....


Anyways India has been sending Aid to Palestine and thats more than enough to prove anyone that We do not support israel is such cases


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## Thomas

After doing research on the Charities involved in this incident. I can see why Israel is deeply suspicious. And insists on not letting them through. especially the Turkish charity I.H.H.

In fact Turkish authorities have raided their offices in the past and found illegal weapons, explosives, and cash. That is something many here would prefer not to hear and acknowledge. The linked report by a Danish institute details many none profit Islamic NGO's with terror links. If you do not like this link just Google and you will find many other sources.

THE ROLE OF ISLAMIC CHARITIES IN INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST RECRUITMENT AND FINANCING


----------



## jha

*Israel begins deporting Gaza aid flotilla activists*

JERUSALEM: Israel began deporting all the foreign activists detained during a deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, as international pressure mounted for a full investigation of the incident.

Pro-Palestinian activists behind the aid convoy meanwhile vowed to renew their bid to break the Israeli blockade and deliver their cargoes to the Palestinian territory in the coming days.

"All foreign nationals who were on board the fleet and were arrested will be deported from Tuesday night," said a statement from the office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

The operation was expected to be completed within 48 hours, it added.

Early on Wednesday, an Israeli government official told AFP that a first group of around 50 Turkish nationals were headed to Ben Gurion airport near Tel Aviv, from where they would be deported.

The decision to release the activists came after mounting international pressure to free the detainees.

The UN Security Council called for the ships and the civilians who had been on board to be released and to transport the aid to Gaza.

It also called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards."

Israeli troops said they had killed nine of the activists during Monday's operation to capture the six-ship flotilla, which had 682 passengers from 42 countries.

Pierre Wettach, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross delegation, said his group was checking on the condition and whereabouts of those wounded and those detained by Israeli authorities.

Israel's decision to back down and release the detainees followed two days of stinging international criticism.

It was all the more remarkable given that just hours earlier, Netanyahu had described some of the activists as "terrorists armed with cold weapons such as axes, knives, clubs, bars and the like."

The White House declined to specifically condemn Israel, but US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the situation in Gaza was "unsustainable and unacceptable."

"Israel's legitimate security needs must be met just as the Palestinians' legitimate needs for sustained humanitarian assistance and regular access for reconstruction materials must also be ensured," she added.

Clinton backed an Israeli probe of the raid, while stressing that it had to be "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent."

Israel insists the boarding would have been peaceful if the commandos had not been attacked by dozens of club-wielding activists on the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara, which carried most of the passengers.

Organisers of the aid convoy meanwhile insisted they would push ahead with a fresh bid to break the blockade.

"We knew what the risk would be and we will continue to run these flotillas," said Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement.

"The Rachel Corrie will probably be there within the week."

The aid-laden cargo ship, currently off the east coast of Italy, is named after a US activist crushed to death in 2003 by an Israeli army bulldozer during a protest on the Gaza Strip.

Greta Berlin said organisers were also working on plans for a new flotilla that would leave for Gaza in July.

But Israel was adamant it would not let any ships through.

"We will not let any ships reach Gaza and supply what has become a terrorist base threatening the heart of Israel," deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai told public radio.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan called for Israel to be punished for its "bloody massacre" and urged international sanctions against its "lawlessness."

Israel has informed Turkey that at least four of the nine passengers killed were Turkish nationals, a Turkish diplomat said.

And while Israel blamed the activists for the confrontation, passengers had an entirely different story.

"Personally, I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives," former MP Norman Paech, 72, said on his arrival back in Berlin.

"This was a clear act of piracy," said Paech, who was on the Mavi Marmara, where the worst of the violence took place.

Netanyahu, who consulted with his security cabinet after calling off White House talks with US President Barack Obama, insisted the commandos had "defended themselves from a lynching."

But the Israeli press was scathing about the botched operation, criticising the failure of the political and military leadership to anticipate such a scenario.

Flotilla organisers said the ships carried some 10,000 tonnes of aid destined for Gaza, which has suffered a crippling blockade imposed by Israel in 2006 and largely backed by Egypt.

Israeli authorities said some of the fleet's supplies had been trucked to Gaza and more would follow.

The political fallout from the incident continued late on Tuesday, as Nicaragua suspended diplomatic relations with Israel. 

Israel begins deporting Gaza aid flotilla activists - Middle East - World - The Times of India


----------



## Awesome

Agni 5 said:


> You are missing USA from the equations. Some country piss in their pants when USA makes just a phone call.


Israel can't afford a full blown out war with Pakistan or Turkey. Not all nations can only talk about wiping Israel off the face of the map. What'll take us? 10 seconds?

I say send in more aid ships, unarmed. We should never be afraid to do the right thing.

---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------




Thomas said:


> After doing research on the Charities involved in this incident. I can see why Israel is deeply suspicious. And insists on not letting them through. especially the Turkish charity I.H.H.
> 
> In fact Turkish authorities have raided their offices in the past and found illegal weapons, explosives, and cash. That is something many here would prefer not to hear and acknowledge. The linked report by a Danish institute details many none profit Islamic NGO's with terror links. If you do not like this link just Google and you will find many other sources.
> 
> THE ROLE OF ISLAMIC CHARITIES IN INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST RECRUITMENT AND FINANCING


And what was found this time around?


----------



## Kompromat

Agni 5 said:


> They attacked with Iron rods after waving white flag!!



You have not answered my question about me Landing in your home with an M4A1.


----------



## fallstuff

Agni 5 said:


> You are missing USA from the equations. Some country piss in their pants when USA makes just a phone call.



What an idiotic post. US is really on the spot. Turkey is NATO, and then there is Israel.


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## IndianArmy

Black Blood said:


> You have not answered my question about me Landing in your home with an M4A1.



Wise people Put there hands up if they Are not trained In fighting, Instead try to hit a person heavily equipped.


----------



## ptldM3

TaimiKhan said:


> Coming such comments from you are surprising, as being an ex-major you would have understood that the ship's passengers had the right to defend themselves while they *were in international waters*.
> 
> They angels of death had no justification to board the ships, and if they did, then the passenger did the right thing as the commandos were the intruders and they shot unarmed civilians who were defending their turf in international waters.



The ship was in international waters and Israelis had no right to board the ship. However, and correct me if i'm wrong, the ship was approaching Israel and ignoring the Israeli blockade. In my opinion the Turkish ship should have complied with the Israeli navy, yes it was international waters and normally vesels enjoy freedoms in international waters and i do support defending a ship against hostile forces but in this case it was not some random civilian piracy ship but it was the Israeli military. Moreover, the Israelis were badly beaten when they boarded the ship, so the turkish ship was as much at fault as the Israelis. If the Turkish passengers would have stayed calm no one would have been killed, afterall the Israelis were brutally beaten and when ones life is in danger one will defend his life. In the end both sides exercised poor judgement, the Israelis should't have boarded the ship in international waters, but than again the Turkish vesel should have followed orders and the Turkish passengers should have remained calm instead of escalating the situation. And before someone brings up a hypothetical situation that goes something like this: if someone broke into my home would i defend my home? The answer is, of course but there is a big difference between someone that breaks into a home and military commandos that board a suspicious ship.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Kompromat

Asim Aquil said:


> Israel can't afford a full blown out war with Pakistan or Turkey. Not all nations can only talk about wiping Israel off the face of the map. What'll take us? 10 seconds?
> 
> I say send in more aid ships, unarmed. We should never be afraid to do the right thing.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------
> 
> 
> *And what was found this time around?*



Watermelons and tons of Zionist propaganda

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------




ptldM3 said:


> The ship was in international waters and Israelis had no right to board the ship. However, and correct me if i'm wrong, the ship was approaching Israel and *ignoring the Israeli blockade.* In my opinion the Turkish ship should have complied with the Israeli navy, yes it was international waters and normally vesels enjoy freedoms in international waters and i do support defending a ship against hostile forces but in this case it was not some random civilian piracy ship but it was the Israeli military. Moreover, the Israelis were badly beaten when they boarded the ship, so the turkish ship was as much at fault as the Israelis. If the Turkish passengers would have stayed calm no one would have been killed, afterall the Israelis were brutally beaten and when ones life is in danger one will defend his life. In the end both sides exercised poor judgement, the Israelis should't have boarded the ship in international waters, but than again the Turkish vesel should have followed orders and the Turkish passengers should have remained calm instead of escalating the situation. And before someone brings up a hypothetical situation if that goes something like this: if someone broke into your home would i defend your home? The question is, of course but there is a big difference between someone that breaks into a home and military commandos that board a suspicious ship.




Who gives Israel the Right to Put a blockade for Humanitarian aid ?


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## Agni 5

Black Blood said:


> You have not answered my question about me Landing in your home with an M4A1.



Ship in the Israel border it is not a my home.


----------



## chantpapipart2

Asim Aquil said:


> Israel can't afford a full blown out war with Pakistan or Turkey. Not all nations can only talk about wiping Israel off the face of the map. What'll take us? 10 seconds?
> 
> I say send in more aid ships, unarmed. We should never be afraid to do the right thing.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------
> 
> 
> And what was found this time around?



Do you really think Pakistan can afford war with Israel????


----------



## Kompromat

*The Blockade is Illegal in the first place.*


*UN chief condemns Gaza blockade*

By Middle East correspondent Anne Barker

Updated Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:58pm AEDT 

The United Nations secretary general Ban Ki-moon has been visiting the Gaza Strip, where he expressed his solidarity with the Palestinians and condemned Israel's ongoing blockade.

Mr Ban visited some of the hardest-hit areas of Gaza before inaugurating projects to build 150 homes, a flour mill and a sewage treatment plant.

But he says more reconstruction is needed, calling the projects a "drop in the bucket."

"We are meeting here in Khan Younis because for nearly three years the United Nations has not been able to complete these housing projects," he said.

"I have seen still many damaged houses. It is quite distressing for for me to see all damage still not being able to be reconstructed."

Mr Ban says the blockade on the region - imposed nearly three years ago after the militant group Hamas seized power - causes unacceptable suffering and he has called for Gaza's borders to be reopened. 

Israel imposed the blockade to crush Hamas and prevent the use of imported materials to make weapons, but it prevents all but the most basic humanitarian supplies from getting in.

But Mr Ban says Israel's policy of closure is unsustainable and wrong. 

He has also stressed that Hamas too must change its policies, by renouncing violence and recognizing Israel.

Tags: world-politics, unrest-conflict-and-war, israel, palestinian-territories 

First posted Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:11pm AEDT

UN chief condemns Gaza blockade - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


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## Awesome

ptldM3 said:


> The ship was in international waters and Israelis had no right to board the ship. However, and correct me if i'm wrong, the ship was approaching Israel and ignoring the Israeli blockade.



The ship was approaching Palestine, not Israel. Israel can blockade its own territories, not Palestine. Israel wants the Palestinians to vote out the Hamas before the Palestinians are allowed to eat food. They have been destitute for months and it was high time that someone took the risk of their lives to feed people in need.

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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> Do you really think Pakistan can afford war with Israel????



Yes we can & we can blow up Israel anytime if needed , do you have any issues with that ?


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## Kompromat

IndianArmy said:


> Wise people Put there hands up if they Are not trained In fighting, Instead try to hit a person heavily equipped.



They started firing before they arrived on the boat something you call the fire cover.


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## Agni 5

Black Blood said:


> Yes we can & we can blow up Israel anytime if needed , do you have any issues with that ?



Than what stoping pakistan from doing it ?


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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> Yes we can & we can blow up Israel anytime if needed , do you have any issues with that ?



Yes you can, using your nuclear weapons. But Israel will wipe out Pakistan in retaliation. Don't forget they also have nukes


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## ptldM3

Black Blood said:


> Who gives Israel the Right to Put a blockade for Humanitarian aid ?



Blocking humanitarian aid is unfortunate and it is a shame. I do not know if Palestine has territorial waters but if they don't than the Israelis have total control and as so they can block humanitarian aid if they wish. (i'm against this but it's a reality). My question is, did Israel know the Turkish ship was full of humanitarian aid and if they did do they block all humanitarian aid?

In my opinion Israel should allow humanitarian aid but vesels should inform Israel ahead of time so they can inspect the ships when they come do dock.

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## fallstuff

Thomas said:


> After doing research on the Charities involved in this incident. I can see why Israel is deeply suspicious. And insists on not letting them through. especially the Turkish charity I.H.H.
> 
> In fact Turkish authorities have raided their offices in the past and found illegal weapons, explosives, and cash. That is something many here would prefer not to hear and acknowledge. The linked report by a Danish institute details many none profit Islamic NGO's with terror links. If you do not like this link just Google and you will find many other sources.
> 
> THE ROLE OF ISLAMIC CHARITIES IN INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST RECRUITMENT AND FINANCING



Apparently you are not seeing clear enough. There is a clear pattern of behavior. After getting their butt kicked by Hezbullah, they took it out on Beirut. Point was to cause enough damage so Hezbullah will think twice. Gaza 2008/9 , over a thousand deaths, massive destruction. Now the slaughter on the high seas. 

Reminds me of a paranoid Israeli professor who advocates a "mad dog policy"


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## Kompromat

chantpapipart2 said:


> Yes you can, using your nuclear weapons. But Israel will wipe out Pakistan in retaliation. Don't forget they also have nukes


 
Yes i know thanks for letting me know


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## Aslan

ptldM3 said:


> Blocking humanitarian aid is unfortunate and it is a shame. I do not know if Palestine has territorial waters but if they don't than the Israelis have total control and as so they can block humanitarian aid if they wish. (i'm against this but it's a reality). My question is, did Israel know the Turkish ship was full of humanitarian aid and if they did do they block all humanitarian aid?
> 
> In my opinion Israeli should allow humanitarian aid but vesels should inform Israel ahead of time so they can inspect the ships when they come do dock.



Yes they do block the aid and let very small amount of it through every day some where around 15-20% of the daily need. And this number was also mentioned on BBC authenticated by UN.

You can read more about it here. 

*The aid flotilla attacked by Israeli troops today was trying to break the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip imposed by Israel in June 2007.

Israel said the blockade was intended to hold Hamas  which it views as a terrorist group  "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli territory. It is also intended to constrain Hamas's ability to rule in Gaza, and to put pressure on it to release Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held captive for four years.

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

The UN humanitarian co-ordinator said last week that the formal economy in Gaza has "collapsed" and 60% of households were short of food. According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water.

Luxury foods are banned and a UN report last year said that on average it took 85 days to get shelter kits into Gaza, 68 days to deliver health and paediatric hygiene kits, and 39 days for household items such as bedding and kitchen utensils. It said that school textbooks and stationery had been delayed.

The effect of the blockade was felt even more acutely in the aftermath of the invasion of the strip by Israeli forces in the winter of 2008-9, as materials needed for reconstruction were delayed or banned from entering Gaza. A UN factfinding mission described the blockade as "collective punishment".

In the absence of imports, goods have been smuggled in through tunnels built under the Gaza-Egypt border. The World Bank estimates that 80% of Gaza's imports arrive by tunnel. The goods, which are taxed by Hamas, attract inflated prices that are out of the reach of most ordinary residents.

The Free Gaza Movement, an international human rights organisation, first sailed from Cyprus in August 2008 in an attempt to highlight the plight of the citizens of Gaza suffering under the blockade. The first sailing made it to Gaza, but subsequent boats carrying supplies during the Gaza conflict were intercepted and in June last year Israeli forces boarded a boat taking aid to the strip and detained campaigners, who were later deported.

Israel's Gaza blockade targets Hamas while citizens suffer | World news | guardian.co.uk

*

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## Kompromat

Agni 5 said:


> Than what stoping pakistan from doing it ?



Just a chance

---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

*IT seems , Turkey has got Israel on hot nails.*


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## chantpapipart2

Black Blood said:


> Yes i know thanks for letting me know



You know this thing.... but you don't realise it...

You think only you have THE BIG BOMB


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## Kompromat

Agni 5 said:


> Ship in the Israel border it is not a my home.



No Ship was in the International Waters which do not belong to Israel.

Now what ?


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## notsuperstitious

khalidali said:


> If you are not man enough to stand by your words then dont bother. Next time when talking to me at least have to audacity to quote me so that I would know who whats up. And secondly the above coming from you is not even a surprise you Muslim hating bigot. And yes the humanity of the pews, the whole world saw it. May be if you had taken off your I hate Muslim glassed you might have seen it too. I have wasted enough of my time on a soulless human like you.



You jew hating racist bigot, i was only requesting not to use racist words, how would you like if one called you a puslim, use the same yerdstick.

Your hate filled racist abuse and personal attacks are tolerated here, but your opinion is worth nothing, keep spewing it. For records, my only other post on this thread was india's official condemnation of this illegal attack, but you were too busy calling people morons and whatever else your self righteousness allows!


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## Aslan

Black Blood said:


> Just a chance
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------
> 
> *IT seems , Turkey has got Israel on hot nails.*
> 
> YouTube - Turkey urges UN to punish Israel for raid on Gaza Flotilla



Well why am I not surprised, I remember that during the last Lebanon war the whole pewish propaganda machine kicked in with videos in different languages and all on youtube to get their point across. But now they have a better thing going on, indian they dont even need any proof. They will just take what they hear from the pews and off they go. This is what I call pews best friend.


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## Agni 5

Black Blood said:


> Just a chance
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------
> 
> *IT seems , Turkey has got Israel on hot nails.*
> 
> YouTube - Turkey urges UN to punish Israel for raid on Gaza Flotilla



It is Israel they never give you any chance even for you dream.

All arab countries surounding Israel are looking for chance from last 50 years. Israel beaten them very bad that now they are not even dreaming for the chance.


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## Aslan

fateh71 said:


> You jew hating racist bigot, i was only requesting not to use racist words, how would you like if one called you a puslim, use the same yerdstick.
> 
> Your hate filled racist abuse and personal attacks are tolerated here, but your opinion is worth nothing, keep spewing it. For records, my only other post on this thread was india's official condemnation of this illegal attack, but you were too busy calling people morons and whatever else your self righteousness allows!



Oh so you are back why is your back side on fire if I am calling them a pew. You have a problem with that, you hypocrite racist. Go live with it, I have seen your attitude towards Pakistan and Muslims in general and even though you are not man enough to make say stuff on peoples faces you still condone them by agreeing to the. So Why dont you take your self righteousness and shove it where the sun dont shine. You terrorist sympathizer bigot.

And as your brain goes dead when you see a stupid remark from your country men, let me enlighten you dumb @$$ why did I call that person a retard, he had been onmy case all day long surely u didnt see it. He then started acting like a kid and forced me to condemn the aid workers of cource you didnt see it. He presented false arguments and condoned the killings, yet again I am sure that you didn't see it. He came and offered me a deal that I will take a voluntary retirement from PDF if he proves me wrong which he never did, but yet again you didnt see it. And then he comes back and calls me an idiot and accuses me of derailing the thread, and yet again your dumb@$$ failed to see that either. So why dont you go sit in the corner and cry a river for me calling the pews pews. At least I am not sick enough to defend the deaths of innocent civilians.

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## Kompromat

*A Must watch for Human beings on this Forum.*

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## Abu Basit

*Israel should lead investigation into attack on Gaza flotilla, says US*

Turkey's demands for international inquiry blocked at meeting of United Nations security council

*The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.
*
A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

Turkey pressed for the security council to launch an investigation similar to Richard Goldstone's inquiry into last year's fighting in Gaza which prompted protests from Israel when it concluded that Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Ankara wanted the investigation into the raid on the Mavi Marmara to result in the prosecution of officials responsible for the assault and the payment of compensation to the victims.

But in hours of diplomatic wrangling, the US blocked the move and instead forced a statement that called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards". The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation.

The Israeli government is certain to launch its own inquiry in part as a response to domestic criticism that its forces were ill-prepared for the resistance they met on the ship. But any self-inquiry is likely to be met with the same scepticism beyond Israel's borders that met its investigations into last year's Gaza war and its 2006 invasion of Lebanon which criticised aspects of the handling of the operations but did not challenge the underlying claim that they were essential for Israel's security.

The Americans also blocked criticism of Israel for violating international law by assaulting a ship in international waters in the security council statement proposed by Turkey, the Palestinians and Arab nations.

The US instead forced a broader statement that condemned "those acts which resulted in the loss" of life.

However, the security council statement did criticise Israel's siege of Gaza as "not sustainable" and called for a "sustained and regular flow of goods and people to Gaza, as well as unimpeded provision and distribution of humanitarian assistance throughout Gaza".

Turkey's foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, called the raid on the Mavi Marmara "tantamount to banditry and piracy; it is murder conducted by a state".

The French ambassador to the UN, Gerard Araud, said "there was disproportionate use of force and a level of violence which nothing justifies and which we condemn".

Wolff told the security council that the organisers of the flotilla had been irresponsible in trying to deliver aid by sea in the face of the Israeli blockade.

Israel should lead investigation into attack on Gaza flotilla, says US | World news | The Guardian


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## Kompromat

*MODS:* Please lookout for some famous trollers .

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## blain2

Agni 5 said:


> Israel has support/backing of big brother USA.
> 
> So called nuclear armed states just node head with just one phone call from USA.
> 
> No one can touch Israel. It is just empty pot sound and chest thumping.
> 
> I am not supporting what Israel is doing. But they have every right to self existence.



Whose denying their right to exist? Its about the Palestinian' right to exist. Those living in Gaza are essentially in a prolonged incarceration.

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## notsuperstitious

khalidali said:


> Oh so you are back why is your back side on fire if I am calling them a pew. You have a problem with that, you hypocrite racist. Go live with it, I have seen your attitude towards Pakistan and Muslims in general and even though you are not man enough to make say stuff on peoples faces you still condone them by agreeing to the. So Why dont you take your self righteousness and shove it where the sun dont shine. You terrorist sympathizer bigot.



When you are man enough to take what you dish out, then come and talk to me. No point trading insults with one who enjoys doing it.

And I take it you agree to being called a puslim.

As to whats wrong with calling jews pews, I expect some mod to answer that.


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## Aslan

fateh71 said:


> When you are man enough to take what you dish out, then come and talk to me.
> 
> And I take it you agree to being called a puslim.
> 
> As to whats wrong with calling jews pews, I expect some mod to answer that.



As I said earlier I have wasted enough time on a racist terrorist sympathizer. I will let the mods decide. If they think that me calling them pews break any forum rules, then I will stop.


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## prodevelopment

Black Blood said:


> *MODS:* Please lookout for some famous trollers .



Dude, 96 pages of utter crap. 

Just see who has been ever present throughout those pages and then you'll know who has been trolling.

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## blain2

chantpapipart2 said:


> Thats the point.. they were trying to search the ship when they were challanged and attacked.



What gives them the right to search a foreign registered ship in International waters? They knew exactly what was on the manifesto. All of the products that the group wanted to take to Gaza. There is no question of searching for arms. For God sake realize what you are saying instead of putting such arguments forth.

There were people from the US, EU and elsewhere on the ship which included a former US ambassador, a holocaust survivor and many other peaceniks. How is it possible that weapons or anything dangerous could be transported that required Israelis to search the ship (when they have no right to)?

I understand the urge to back your boys come what may, however the world opinion is strongly against the act of Israel no matter what flimsy defence you put up for them. You can continue to raise silly points which nobody is bothering with. 

The White House is trying to think about a way to wiggle out of this one as its a bad one and they know that Israel has screwed up. This in essence is the situation on the ground.

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## Aslan

@ Black Blood

In the news this morning at AAJ TV they were conducting an interview with Mr Nadeem, and he mentioned that the pews confiscated his passport. The Pakistanis authorities should make sure that they highlight this fact to every one. So that the next time a Dubai like incident happens and the passport is found to be of a Pakistani the authorities should know where to look at.

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## Agni 5

blain2 said:


> Whose denying their right to exist? Its about the Palestinian' right to exist. Those living in Gaza are essentially in a prolonged incarceration.



You are forgetting wiping out from the map threats from Iran and some other states.


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## Tiger Prowling

*What u expect from terrorist country like America.

Do u think that American terrorist govt; will allow its terror manager israel to be brought to book, never.

Turkey its time to wake up.*


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## Kompromat

prodevelopment said:


> Dude, 96 pages of utter crap.
> 
> Just see who has been ever present throughout those pages and then you'll know who has been trolling.



Judgment of the day --cretin--


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## Ahmad

under cover said:


> He is the missing link that provides the pakistani crowd here an oppurtunity to connect to that Israel-palstenine issue and hence to openly and disgracefully criticise israel.
> 
> *I mean "IsraHell" !! What the F is that?? Its a sovereign country just like any other nation and this is a distinguished forum*.



and where is sovereingthy of palesinians which has been viloated by israel for this many years?


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## Marxist

*Abbas rejects calls to suspend talks*

*Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas* on Tuesday rejected calls to suspend peace talks with Israel and said that the US-sponsored &#8220;proximity&#8221; negotiations would continue despite the IDF operation against the Gaza-bound convoy.

Abbas made the announcement during a phone conversation with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

Abbas had come under heavy pressure from Hamas and other Palestinian factions to halt the indirect talks with Israel in protest of the IDF operation.

Meanwhile, the PA and Hamas expressed deep satisfaction with Egypt&#8217;s decision to reopen the Rafah border crossing.

Abbas thanked Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak for reopening the terminal between the Gaza Strip and Egypt in response to the Israeli &#8220;crime&#8221; against the aid ships, a senior Palestinian official in Ramallah said.

Abbas has also decided to reach out to Hamas, in a bid to end the power struggle between his Fatah faction and the Islamist movement, the official told The Jerusalem Post.

He said that Abbas had asked Palestinian businessman Munib al-Masri to head a high-level delegation of Palestinian officials that would travel to the Gaza Strip to discuss ways of achieving &#8220;reconciliation&#8221; between the two parties, the official added.

The delegation would consist of senior PLO and Fatah officials, including ones who fled the Gaza Strip after Hamas&#8217;s violent takeover of the enclave in the summer of 2007.

Masri, who lives in Nablus, said the delegation would travel to Gaza either through the Erez crossing to the northern Strip or the Rafah border crossing from Sinai.

&#8220;We must achieve intra-Palestinian reconciliation,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We must forget the wounds for the sake of the unity and future of the Palestinian people.&#8221;

Muhammad Dahlan, a former Fatah security commander from the Gaza Strip who is wanted by Hamas, said that Fatah and PLO leaders who met in Ramallah late on Monday night had decided to dispatch a top delegation to launch talks with the movement.

Hamas said it would not agree to hold &#8220;reconciliation&#8221; talks with Fatah unless the PA halted security coordination and indirect talks with Israel and released all Hamas supporters from its West Bank jails.

Salah Bardaweel, a Hamas legislator and spokesman in Gaza City, said his movement had no time for such initiatives and visits.

&#8220;They keep coming and going only to ask us to accept the latest Egyptian proposal for ending the [Hamas-Fatah] dispute,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We have no more time to waste.&#8221;

Bardaweel said that before talking about ending the dispute, the PA should stop all contacts with Israel, including the indirect talks and security coordination.

&#8220;The Palestinian Authority must also stop its campaign of arrests and harassment against young men, women and the elderly in the West Bank. They must stop torture in their prisons,&#8221; he said.

Mashaal welcomes Rafah border opening

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal welcomed the decision to reopen the Rafah border crossing and called on Mubarak not to close it again.

Addressing Mubarak, he said, &#8220;You began your life as a fighter against the Zionist occupation. Now we call on you to take a strong and courageous decision to keep the Rafah terminal permanently open and end your life with this brave decision.&#8221;

Mubarak, 82, had a long career in the Egyptian Air Force and commanded it during the Yom Kippur War.

Mashaal said Hamas was not opposed to the presence of European monitors at the border crossing to make sure that weapons were not smuggled into the Gaza Strip.

Mashaal also urged Fatah to join Hamas in &#8220;resisting the occupation&#8221; and putting the Palestinian house in order.

He condemned security coordination between the PA and Israel as a &#8220;crime,&#8221; saying there was no reason Israel should be rewarded for its actions.

&#8220;Why should [Prime Minister Binyamin] Netanyahu give you anything if you are opposed to an intifada and are fighting and arresting resistance fighters?&#8221; he asked. &#8220;If we are united, the Arabs will stand with us.&#8221;

Mashaal, who was speaking at a press conference in Yemen, called for bringing Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak to trial for committing &#8220;war crimes.&#8221; He said Hamas wanted a &#8220;new Goldstone Report&#8221; &#8211; a reference to the UN commission of inquiry into Operation Cast Lead, headed by South African Judge Richard Goldstone.

Abbas rejects calls to suspend talks


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## Kompromat

Agni 5 said:


> You are forgetting wiping out from the map threats from Iran and some other states.



Iran is not the issue here.


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## prodevelopment

Black Blood said:


> Judgment of the day --cretin--



Oh, I forgot I was talking to another racist bigot who has moved on from the white man's burden to the muslim man's burden.

Carry on.

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## blain2

> "The UN humanitarian co-ordinator said last week that the formal economy in Gaza has "collapsed" and 60&#37; of households were short of food. According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water."



So much for the lame points about the need for Israel to carry on the blockade. Those defending the Israeli actions here need to reorient their sense of decency.

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## ek_indian

This time USA did not do any good. There should be an inquiry into all this nonsense. If Israel is found guilty (which I am sure it is), they should be treated accordingly.

What was other permanent members's response?

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## Aslan

*Anger at UN rights council debate on Gaza boat raid
*​






GENEVA : Muslim nations on Tuesday angrily condemned Israel's *heinous attack* on a Gaza aid flotilla and demanded an international probe at an emergency session of the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva.

*"These murderous attacks are characteristic tools used by Israel to derail every peaceful effort and silence every voice of moderation and reason,"*

*Pakistani ambassador* Zamir Akram told the council on behalf of the *Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC)*.

Describing the assault as a "*heinous attack*," Turkey's envoy stressed that "*treating humanitarian aid delivery as a hostile act and aid workers as combatants is totally unacceptable*."

Israeli commandos boarded one of the aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip in the pre-dawn raid on Monday that left at least nine passengers dead and sparked global outrage. Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists were also arrested.

Israeli ambassador Aharon Leshno Yaar, defending the military action, outlined international law and said the soldiers acted in self defence and only used live ammunition because they were attacked.

"The people who surrounded them were not peace activists, they were a lynch mob," said Yaar.

"Under applicable international law, capture of a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade can be done in international waters, before entrance to the blockaded area," he added.

States from the Arab League and the OIC had asked for the special session of the 47 member state council.

Pakistan, Sudan and the Palestinian delegation also tabled a draft resolution for the debate seeking condemnation of the raid and aiming to set up an international inquiry.

The draft, which is to be submitted to a vote by the council on Wednesday, called for an "*independent international fact-finding mission to investigate violations of international law resulting from the Israeli attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian assistance*."

It also "*condemns in the strongest terms possible the outrageous attack by Israeli forces*" and called for the release of all those detained in Monday's operation.

On Tuesday, Israel began the process of deporting more than 600 pro-Palestinian activists who were brought ashore after the deadly navy raid.

Israel warned Tuesday it would prevent all aid ships from reaching besieged Gaza, as activists vowed a new attempt to defy the three-year-old blockade of the Hamas-run Palestinian territory.

*UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay had condemned Israel's use of military force as disproportionate*, as the incident sparked widespread criticism when the council began its latest two week session on Monday.

"*The blockade lies at the heart of so many of the problems plaguing the Israel-Palestine situation, as does the impression that the Israeli government treats international law with perpetual disdain*," she said.

The UN Security Council in New York later called for an impartial investigation into the attack and the immediate release of all civilians.

Israel is frequently the subject of special debates and condemnation by the UN's top rights assembly for issues such as settlement building in occupied territories and abuse against Palestinians.

A similar special session early last year led to a UN human rights investigation into Israel's 2008-2009 military offensive in the Gaza Strip.

*The fact-finding mission led by former international war crimes prosecutor Richard Goldstone concluded that both Israel and Gaza's Hamas rulers committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.*

Copyright AFP (Agence France-Presse), 2010


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## Kompromat

not unexpected !


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## Comet

Agni 5 said:


> You are forgetting wiping out from the map threats from Iran and some other states.



The ship was not coming from Iran.


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Oh, I forgot I was talking to another racist bigot who has moved on from the white man's burden to the muslim man's burden.
> 
> Carry on.



Dude you should be the last one making judgement, by the way I am still waiting for an evidence on the basis of which you called me an idiot yesterday. And accused me of derailment of the thread. Apparently after which you conveniently ran away.

And make sure that you give me a civilized answer this time.


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## blain2

Agni 5 said:


> You are forgetting wiping out from the map threats from Iran and some other states.



So what does that have to do with getting food and goods to the 1.5 million Palestinians? Lets keep politics aside. This is a humanitarian issue. Palestinians are not responsible for the statements of the leader of Iran. 

Secondly, others talk about Zionist entity in Israel dying off, here Israelis are actively holding an entire population hostage to their political dispute with the government of Gaza. If anything, its the Palestinian nation that seems to be getting wiped out or having to live as third rate humans.

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## Agni 5

umairp said:


> The ship was not coming from Iran.



Simple answer. Israel don't give any chance. It is very tiny country. it has to be proactive to survive. So many enemies waiting to stab.

It is off topic but you know people attacked mumbai on 26/11 came in a fishing boat.


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## Marxist

*Israel admits mistakes in boarding ship*

Wrong intelligence, wrong equipment, wrong tactics--Israel's military acknowledged big mistakes yesterday in the bungled boarding of an aid ship bound for Gaza in which elite troops killed nine international activists.

Though Israelis rallied to their conscripts in the face of foreign fury, the domestic recrimination -- "Foul-up" and "Fiasco" dominated newspaper headlines--betrayed an erosion of confidence recalling the setbacks of the 2006 Lebanon war.

One Israeli commentator called for the ouster of Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister. Cabinet members vowed to investigate, but their insistence the pro-Palestinian activists had provoked the bloodshed found a ready ear among irate Israelis.

Marine commandos involved in the attack pointed to a failure of intelligence.

"We did not expect such resistance from the group's activists as we were talking about a humanitarian aid group," the boarding party's commander, an unnamed naval lieutenant, who received special permission to be interviewed, told Army Radio.

"The outcome was different to what we thought, but I must say that this was mainly because of the inappropriate behaviour of the adversary we encountered."

Though Israel's police quarantine of activists from the Mavi Marmara prevented the airing of dissenting testimony, a video clip filmed by one of the passengers as the converted cruise ship was stormed showed two marines being clubbed and stabbed.

The Israeli military also released night-vision footage of a half-dozen commandos grappling with as many as 30 activists.

The images stirred undercurrents of disbelief and disgrace in Israel. Fabled for their silent exploits at sea, the fighters who rappelled onto the Mavi Marmara ship seemed unfit for the melee -- outnumbered,

almost overpowered, though not outgunned.

Jason Alderwick, a maritime warfare expert at London's International Institute for Strategic Studies, faulted the marines for not commandeering the vessel more efficiently.

"Success begins with planning and with decent intelligence, and they have boarded such ships before," he said. "This time they didn't go in hard enough, fast enough and in sufficient numbers to establish overwhelming control."

For example, some of the troops wielded paintball rifles. The non-lethal weapons, designed to bruise, beat back and mark suspects for later arrest, apparently proved of limited use against activists who had the protection of life-jackets and gas masks.

"It's clear that the equipment for crowd-dispersal with which they were issued was insufficient," said Lieutenant-General Gabi Ashkenazi, Israel's armed forces chief.

There was little question of calling off the raid once the first Israelis were in the fight and vulnerable, though the navy said some commandos opted to escape by jumping overboard.

Israel said seven marines were injured, one after activists threw him over a railing and two from gunshot wounds, possibly from sidearms that were wrested from them.

"A number of the fighters who understood the situation, the threat posed to their lives, reoriented themselves and simply worked with live [ammunition] weapons as soon as they came down," the marines lieutenant said.

Some experts questioned whether a police anti-riot unit might have tackled the resistance with less bloodshed.

But an Israeli defence official said only marines were capable of the takeover 120 kilo-metres in the choppy Mediterranean, timed for darkness to surprise the activists and deprive attendant journalists of spectacular pictures.

Matan Vilnai, Mr. Barak's deputy, brushed off the demand in the best-selling Yedioth Ahronoth daily that his boss resign. He hinted Israel had exhausted covert means of stalling the Mavi Marmara and five other vessels in a flotilla that sailed for Gaza in defiance of an Israeli campaign to isolate the Hamas movement that controls the territory.

"Everything was considered. I don't want to elaborate beyond that, because the fact is there were not up to 10, or however many ships were [originally] planned," Mr. Vilnai told Israel Radio, alluding to rumours some of the vessels had been sabotaged.

Israel admits mistakes in boarding ship


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## Agni 5

blain2 said:


> So what does that have to do with getting food and goods to the 1.5 million Palestinians? Lets keep politics aside. This is a humanitarian issue. Palestinians are not responsible for the statements of the leader of Iran.
> 
> Secondly, others talk about Zionist entity in Israel dying off, here Israelis are actively holding an entire population hostage to their political dispute with the government of Gaza. If anything, its the Palestinian nation that seems to be getting wiped out or having to live as third rate humans.



Blocking humanitarian aid is bad. I agree.


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## Ahmad

> but if it wasn't for me, would PDF readers have been exposed to the truth?



nothing would have changed without you, there are different people with differnet opinion, they can clearly express themselves in any time and havent you seen the harsh encounter from the large number of PDF members against those so called hardliners? myself one of the sever critics.



> Not every time. But this time, why not?



tell me when have you crirzized them and punished them for their crimes?



> This was never about food, but about breaking the blockade against weapons and materiel. Israel permits the transit of thousands of tons of humanitarian aid daily.



it was about food, humanity, plight of palestinians etc. why dont you try not to know that only less than a quarter of the food required in gaza is permitted by israel. dont you know that palestinians in gaza are not allwoed to eat pasta?



> Israel did try, but the materials were used for building bunkers and brand-new homes for Hamas bigwigs instead. Even the Saudis complain about Hamas stealing aid.



the same excuse all the time. if Khamas is terrorist, then israel is terrorist too, israel shold also be condmned and sanctioned



> Really, if Israel was so mean-spirited as to starve Palestinians to death, don't you think you'd be hearing about it from the West Bank, too?



but you guys are destroying people's houses in the west bank, arent you? you are building illegal extremist jewish settlements. dont you think this is even worse than the hunger in gaza?

by the way, if you havent got a dual loyalty i have got something to tell you. i am begining to approve or love some of the actions of the taliban for the last few days. i am so helpless, frustrated and angry, i cant do anything else, but at least i love it when your soldiers get killed and your resources get wasted in that war. again this was directed to you if you dont have dual loyalty, and it was certainly not directed to the good american public but to their gov which is supporting terror and inhumanity.


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> Dude you should be the last one making judgement, by the way I am still waiting for an evidence on the basis of which you called me an idiot yesterday. And accused me of derailment of the thread. Apparently after which you conveniently ran away.



Hah......... Pot calling kettle black.

A) I repeat, the fact that you have no life and have been stuck on this thread for the past three days does not mean that I "run away".

B) I gave up interacting with you since you will nevre change your opinion no matter how much evidence I present to you. That has been proven time and again in this thread. Case in point:

----------> You call me a sympathiser of Israelis. I challenge you to show any post but you chicken out.

----------> I show you innumerable evidence about the aid convoy actually being a political stunt. You refuse to even read. Example:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/59878-israel-hijacks-aid-cargo-executes-hostages-pak-journo-talat-hussain-taken-hostage-74.html#post898698

So, I stand by my comment. Idiot and bigot.

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## Awesome

Israel is wiping off the Palestinians from the face of the map! That is not a threat, but its actively going on. Without food and basic necessities they'll die off in a few generations. It is nothing short of a genocide.

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## Agni 5

Asim Aquil said:


> Israel is wiping off the Palestinians from the face of the map! That is not a threat, but its actively going on. Without food and basic necessities they'll die off in a few generations. It is nothing short of a genocide.



If you read RiazHaq's posts, Palestaine has better humain development index then India. They have more calorie intake then India. I wonder how are they getting it.


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## Aslan

prodevelopment said:


> Hah......... Pot calling kettle black.
> 
> A) I repeat, the fact that you have no life and have been stuck on this thread for the past three days does not mean that I "run away".
> 
> B) I gave up interacting with you since you will nevre change your opinion no matter how much evidence I present to you. That has been proven time and again in this thread. Case in point:
> 
> ----------> You call me a sympathiser of Israelis. I challenge you to show any post but you chicken out.
> 
> ----------> I show you innumerable evidence about the aid convoy actually being a political stunt. You refuse to even read. Example:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/59878-israel-hijacks-aid-cargo-executes-hostages-pak-journo-talat-hussain-taken-hostage-74.html#post898698
> 
> So, I stand by my comment. Idiot and bigot.




As I already knew that you are u are mentally challenged which you proved yet again. And yes Mr. Fath I called him a retard, and I wont be shocked if you come swinging at me. You asked me for a proof and I told you that that had been posted before. Now if you are too slow to comprehend that is really not my problem. About me not having a life, well what ever suits you. And as far as Me calling you a sympathizer of pews well I still stand by it, you want a post go through all of the ones that you have posted already, you will see it. You have so far not managed to condemn the acts, instead you are trying to prove otherwise. Also you have asked me to outrightly condemn the aid workers. And you know what I was right when I told you to go to hell. 

And as I said I want a civilized response well I asked too much. Because a person who cant open his eyes and see that humans were killed in cold blood cant even be a human let alone civilized. Because I have never seen a donkey with manners.


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## Ahmad

khalidali said:


> The bottom line is that there will have to be alot of international pressure for the israelies to actually stand up and say sorry. And Turks alone cant achieve that, there has to be a united stand by all the Muslim countries, and also they have to get the countries where they can exert any pressure on board. But the chances of that happening looks dim, and the pews will carry on doing what they are doing. Kill and oppress at will. But when the Goliat gets out of hand there is always a David (Daood) to confront him.



there wont be any pressure because of america, how and what kind of pressue the others can put? it is none. unless america changes its biased and unjust attitude, the zioinists will kill the innocent people again and again and will wipe palestine from the face of the earth.

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## su-47

i have been following this thread for a while now, and didnt want to comment on it until i was well informed.

i think what Israel did was wrong and is nothing short of piracy and murder. yes, a member mentioned the flotilla was a media gimmick. but the media gimmick was needed, in order to highlight Gaza's plight. People were suffering and the point of this was to bring world attention to that! so a media gimmick was needed.

Israel had announced the naval blockade, but that doesn't give them the right to kill civilians on a humanitarian mission. they didn't have the right to board foreign vessels in international waters. yes, i did read the part about the Israeli soldiers being attacked with knives, but that shouldn't result in them opening fire. even in riots in India people use knives and throw stone, but police don't open fire with live ammo. so while the protesters attacking the soldiers was stupid, the soldiers still shouldn't have been armed with live ammo in the first place. they should have used riot gear.

Israel really doesn't have any excuse for this inhuman act. I am not an idiot, so i am not going to call for the en of Israel or death to Jews or crap like that. But i as person condemn this act and feel that Israel should apologise to the world and pay compensation to the families of the killed.

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## Ahmad

T-Faz said:


> Look at what this *Vande Mataram guy wrote on that Israeli guys page*.
> 
> 
> 
> , learn how to send private messages. What an A hole. The poor Israeli guy ran away.



LOOOL, so he did send it to you? lol


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## prodevelopment

khalidali said:


> As I already knew that you are u are mentally challenged which you proved yet again. And yes Mr. Fath I called him a retard, and I wont be shocked if you come swinging at me. *You asked me for a proof and I told you that that had been posted before. *Now if you are too slow to comprehend that is really not my problem. About me not having a life, well what ever suits you. *And as far as Me calling you a sympathizer of pews well I still stand by it, you want a post go through all of the ones that you have posted already, you will see it.
> *



And I challenged you one week's membership for showing me where I've defended Israeli actions, but you chickened out. I rest my case.



khalidali said:


> Also you have asked me to outrightly condemn the aid workers. And you know what I was right when I told you to go to hell.



Yes, I asked you to condemn the media hungry war mongers but you refused, even after been repeatedly shown proof. That's why I called you a bigot.



khalidali said:


> And as I said I want a civilized response well I asked too much. Because a person who cant open his eyes and see that humans were killed in cold blood cant even be a human let alone civilized. Because I have never seen a donkey with manners.



Frankly speaking, with a signature like that, you shouldn't talk about being civilized.

Anyways, I'm done talking to you. Good luck spreading your hate.

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## Aslan

After Israel Raids Flotilla, U.S. Is Torn Between Allies

WASHINGTON  Struggling to navigate a bitter split between two important allies, the Obama administration on Tuesday tried to placate an outraged Turkish government while refusing to condemn Israel for its deadly raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.
President Obama telephoned Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey to express his deep condolences for the deaths of Turkish citizens in clashes with Israeli soldiers on the ship, the White House said. He told Mr. Erdogan that the United States was pushing Israel to return their bodies, as well as 300 Turks who were taken from the ship and being held in Israel.

Mr. Obama called for a credible, impartial and transparent investigation of the facts surrounding this tragedy, the White House said. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said such an investigation could include international participation, something the Israelis said they opposed.

It is far from clear that these efforts will mollify Turkey, which accused Israel of state-sponsored terrorism and likened the psychological impact of the raid to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States. No one should think we will keep quiet in the face of this, Mr. Erdogan declared during a visit to Chile.

The deep rift between Israel and Turkey, which had cultivated close ties, puts the Obama administration in a tough spot on two of its most pressing foreign-policy issues: the Middle East and Iran.

The United States does not want to abandon Israel, which has been subjected to international opprobrium since the raid. The administration is desperate to keep alive indirect peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians brokered by its special envoy, George J. Mitchell.

But it also does not want to alienate Turkey, which is playing an increasingly vocal role on the world stage. Relations were already tender after the United States threw cold water on a Turkish and Brazilian effort to resolve the impasse over Irans nuclear program. Turkish officials complain that they negotiated the deal with the encouragement and agreement of the administration.

Turkey and Israel are both good friends of the United States, and we are working with both to deal with the aftermath of the tragic incident, Mrs. Clinton told reporters at the State Department after meeting with Turkeys foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu.

She conferred with Mr. Davutoglu for more than two hours, rearranging her schedule. Mr. Obamas national security adviser, Gen. James L. Jones, went to see him at his hotel before Mr. Obama called Mr. Erdogan.

Earlier in the day, Mr. Davutoglu harshly criticized the cautious American response to the raid, saying: We expect full solidarity with us. It should not seem like a choice between Turkey and Israel. It should be a choice between right and wrong, between legal and illegal.

He complained that the United States had delayed and watered down the United Nations Security Council statement on Israel, which condemned the actions on the ship rather than Israel itself.

Mr. Davutoglu demanded that Israel apologize for the attack, release the detained passengers, return the bodies of the dead, agree to an independent investigation and lift its blockade of Gaza. He said Turkey was prepared to go back to the United Nations for further action against Israel.

Israel, which defended the actions of its soldiers as a legitimate response to armed attacks by those on the ship, said it could not release the 300 passengers more quickly because they were illegal aliens and had to be held for at least 42 hours under Israeli law. Israel was also questioning 20 to 30 people who it says were directly involved in clashes with the soldiers.

Were going to do our best to heal the wounds with the Turks, said Michael B. Oren, Israels ambassador to the United States, who also met with General Jones and other White House officials.

But Mr. Oren said Israeli authorities had asked Turkey to divert the flotilla to the Israeli port of Ashdod to avoid a confrontation with Israeli forces. He said Israel would have unloaded the cargo of construction material and humanitarian aid and arranged for it to be shipped to Gaza.

Mr. Oren said the Israelis would undertake their own investigation, but he resisted calls for international involvement. Israel has been leery of international investigations since the Goldstone report, which faulted Israel for excessive force in its military strike on Gaza in 2008.

More recently, the South Korean government has won praise for an investigation into the torpedoing of one of its warships, which was aided by the United States, Australia, Sweden and other countries. The report found that a North Korea submarine fired the torpedo.

The Israelis have traditional and well-founded concerns about international investigations, said a senior administration official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. But everyone recognizes that for an investigation to be credible, others have to be able to vouch for the results.

The flotilla case seems likely to harden Turkeys skepticism about a United Nations resolution on Iran. Imposing more sanctions now, Mr. Davutoglu said, would only precipitate a confrontation with Iran in a few months, one that would be even riskier because of the broader tensions.

Asked what the best policy toward Iran is, he said, Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy and more diplomacy.

After Israel Raids Flotilla, U.S. Is Torn Between Allies - NYTimes.com


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## Abu Basit

One terrorist coming to the aid of other terrorist.

it's the terrorist state of America which is responsible for the attacks as Israel knows whatever it does, the american terrorists will always be there to support them.


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## Aslan

@ prodevelopment

I hope that you are done here because enough is enough. And frankly speaking my signature is non of your damn business at the first place. It is my political right to say what ever I want to about the president of my country. Now I have no freaking Idea that why only all the indians so far have had issues with my signature, and not a single Pakistani have asked me any thing about it. Why you guys love Zardari too much or what. Mind your own damn business, and my posts that you have quoted only go on to show that how pathetic you are. Now I hope that you stick to your word and not bother answering, as I wont be too u.


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## psychedelic_renegade

su-47 said:


> i have been following this thread for a while now, and didnt want to comment on it until i was well informed.
> 
> i think what Israel did was wrong and is nothing short of piracy and murder. yes, a member mentioned the flotilla was a media gimmick. but the media gimmick was needed, in order to highlight Gaza's plight. People were suffering and the point of this was to bring world attention to that! so a media gimmick was needed.
> 
> Israel had announced the naval blockade, but that doesn't give them the right to kill civilians on a humanitarian mission. they didn't have the right to board foreign vessels in international waters. yes, i did read the part about the Israeli soldiers being attacked with knives, but that shouldn't result in them opening fire. even in riots in India people use knives and throw stone, but police don't open fire with live ammo. so while the protesters attacking the soldiers was stupid, the soldiers still shouldn't have been armed with live ammo in the first place. they should have used riot gear.
> 
> Israel really doesn't have any excuse for this inhuman act. I am not an idiot, so i am not going to call for the en of Israel or death to Jews or crap like that. But i as person condemn this act and feel that Israel should apologise to the world and pay compensation to the families of the killed.



Agreed. 

Israel has screwed itself. Badly. The problem with Israel is its predictable, unreasonable macho-ness.
Maybe, from a purely strategic point of view, being spineless once in a while isnt such a bad thing after all.
We Indians however take it to another predictable extreme.
That is, of course, our problem.


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## Ahmad

chantpapipart2 said:


> Why everyone in muslim world making so much noice over a small incident?



shame on you. is that a small incident? 

Edited:

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## JonAsad

Terrorsit state America supporting terrorist state israel nothing new..
Did india condemn the attack on innocent humantarians officialy?


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> shame on you. is that a small incident? wish ajmal kasab would have killed more of you.



Oh boy!!!!!!!!!!!


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## All-Green

IndianArmy said:


> If Israel had intentions to kill, why send commandos, they can blow away the ship by an attack chopper.... why get the commandos in and kill person by person??? As per the video, commandos were beaten to near death, then they retaliated as they had gun not for mere show off...



So how many commandos were killed?
Even the best trained soldiers do not stand a chance when overwhelmed by a crowd...here we think that Israeli commandos were nearly *beaten to death*...suddenly they magically escaped and shot their firearms...whereas the crowd was so retarded that despite nearly killing the commandos they did not disarm them.
The first thing a crowd usually does after overwhelming someone is to disarm him, especially if it is a dangerous crowd like the one claimed by Israel.

The overwhelming fact is that Israeli State intentionally attacked a civilian flotilla well inside international waters.
Countries have been attacked for lesser reasons in order to uphold the values of justice by the modern world.
What many like me hope for is to see Israel subjected to sanctions and a very neutral inquiry held into the incident.
Also i shall like to see the Gaza siege lifted, for the sake of the future of not just Palestinians and Israelis but the entire world...if such things are allowed to persist for years upon years then the UN has really no meaning.

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## Aslan

*Israelis pointed guns at our heads: Turkish captain (Agencies)
*
2 June 2010, 8:34 AM ISTANBUL - An Israeli warship threatened to sink Captain Huseyin Tokalaks ship before young commandos boarded the Turkish-flagged Gazze and trained their guns on him and his crew.
They pointed two guns to the head of each of us, Tokalak told a news conference on Tuesday. They were really interesting guns, like the ones you see in the movies.
It was the only light moment in the grizzled Turkish sea captains account of how an attempt to break Israels blockade of the Palestinian-run Gaza Strip ended in bloodshed.
There were no casualties on Tokalaks vessel, but nine activists were killed when the Israeli commandos met resistance as they boarded the Mavi Marmara, the lead ship in a six-strong convoy organised by a Turkish Islamic charity  the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH).
Tokalak, who was released from Israeli custody and returned to Istanbul with his crew, said the Gazze, a cargo vessel carrying the bulk of the aid, was close behind the Mavi Marmara, a passenger ship with nearly 600 people on board.
They were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters, Tokalak told the news conference organised by the IHH.
He saw lights in the sea and air and helicopters approaching the convoy. Fast dinghies sped towards them and the helicopters hovered over the manoeuvring ships.
Using a tannoy, Tokalak told the approaching craft that his ship was in international waters and carried nothing illegal. He said the other captains did the same.
The Israelis threatened to open fire and sink them, he said.
The Israelis have said their soldiers opened fire only when they boarded the Mavi Marmara and came under attack from pro-Palestinian activists, but Tokalak saw events differently.
They started shooting directly at Mavi Marmara. They didnt care if it was the front or back of the ship, he said.
Empty Life Jackets
Tokalak saw smoke rising from the ship and the helicopters descending. I thought they would sink the ship.
The captain of Mavi Marmara said he was wounded and there were others on his ship who were also wounded. He sounded panicked and we got panicked too.
Tokalak said he thought he saw people abandoning the ship, and two life jackets were seen in the dark waters. But then we switched on our lights and saw that no one was in them.
Communications with the Mavi Marmara seemed to be jammed, but finally its captain made contact, saying the commandos had broken windows and thrown gas bombs.
IHH Chairman Bulent Yildirim, on the Mavi Marmara, told the other ships to move off and wait. We are in big trouble, we have wounded and dead people, Tokalak quoted him as saying.
Israeli warships approached the five ships, warning that they would come under fire unless they heaved to.
We had to stop to avoid more deaths, Tokalak said.
It was the last order he gave before the Israeli boarding party took control and he became a prisoner on his own ship.

Israelis pointed guns at our heads: Turkish captain


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## psychedelic_renegade

> shame on you. is that a small incident? wish ajmal kasab would have killed more of you.


Ahmad, it's not expected from someone like you to generalize. But I guess this is the problem the world is facing, even sane voices getting radicalized. This flotilla incident will only help to make the world more radicalized.


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## Ahmad

Agni 5 said:


> Who knows this ship might not have weapons. If it was successful Hamas could have tried to bring arms follow up ships.
> 
> Israel is effected by hamas and they know better about hamas then us.
> 
> Instead of killing, Israel could have searched the ship for weapons.



and have you ever wondered how israel have affected palestine?


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## rohailmalhi

Nothing new about this .Same like always .We muslims have to Unite and thats the one and the only solution.


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## Khan007

US Media Channels such as CNN and Fox News have been biased on this issue as expected but I must praise the British Media for it exposed the terror activities of this tiny monster called Israel! The Guardian has given the most accurate accounts of the illegal attack on the ships and today's newspapers are a nightmare for Israel


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## Aslan

As the account stated by one of the ships captains state that the israeli army acted with a trigger happy attitude. More and more such accounts will start puring out once the people get back to their countries. And we will be getting firsthand accounts from the survivors.


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## Ahmad

psychedelic_renegade said:


> Ahmad, it's not expected from someone like you to generalize. But I guess this is the problem the world is facing, even sane voices getting radicalized. This flotilla incident will only help to make the world more radicalized.



accept my appology, i am feeling so helpless and frustrated and couldnt control myself. hope indian members who have had a balanced approach can just ignore that post of mine, i have already deleted it.

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## Bang Galore

*Fiasco on the high seas *

_By Ari Shavit_

Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Moshe Ya'alon are supposed to know history. They are supposed to know there was no greater mistake than that of the British with regard to the illegal immigrant ship Exodus in the summer of 1947. The brutality employed by the British Mandate against a ferry loaded with Jewish refugees turned the regime into an object of revile. It lost what is now called international legitimacy. British rule over the country ended just 10 months after the Exodus fiasco,

The Turkish ship Mavi Marmara was no Exodus. It carried not Holocaust survivors but provocateurs, many of them extremists. But a series of baseless decisions on the part of the prime minister and the ministers of defense and of strategic affairs turned the Marmara into a Palestinian Exodus. With a single foolish move, the Israeli cabinet cast the Muslim Brotherhood in the role of the victim and the Israel Navy as the villain and simultaneously opened European, Turkish, Arab, Palestinian and internal Israeli fronts. In so doing, Israel is serving Hamas' interests better than Hamas itself has ever done.

Netanyahu, Barak and Ya'alon have neither vision nor charisma, but they once seemed to have good judgment. The sole promise made by their cabinet was not to make hasty decisions like the one that led its predecessor into the Second Lebanon War. It was supposed to handle Israel's strategic interests with utmost seriousness and responsibility.* On the night of May 30th the cabinet broke its promise, demonstrating extreme, unforgivable lack of judgment in the face of the Palestinian flotilla.*

*During the 2006 war in Lebanon I concluded that my 15-year-old daughter could have conducted it more wisely than the Olmert-Peretz government. We've progressed. Today it's clear to me that my 6-year-old son could do much better than our current government. Even a child would have seen the imbalance in the risk-threat assessment in overpowering the flotilla ships. Any smart kid would understand that you don't sacrifice what is important for what is not. But the cabinet did not understand. Under the leadership of Netanyahu, Barak and Ya'alon it came to a patently unreasonable decision. It was a decision of complete fools*.

Endless questions are being asked. What happened to Israel's vaunted creativity? Why was the worst of all possible options chosen? Where was the army chief of staff? Where were the intelligence services? Why did we walk into this trap, which we managed to avoid in all the years of the second intifada, with our eyes open? Why didn't we see that instead of tightening the siege on Gaza, we were about to tighten the siege on ourselves?

*Perhaps the most troubling question in the wake of this fiasco on the high sea is this: Who is navigating our ship of state, and toward what catastrophe are the captains of this ship of fools steering us*

Fiasco on the high seas - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

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## Owais

* Talat says will show real face of Israel*

AMMAN (updated on: June 02, 2010, 10:04 PST): Executive Director News and current affairs of Aaj News Talat Hussain has said that he will show the real face of Israel by releasing the footage of Israeli commandos assault, Aaj News reported.

Talking to Aaj News after his arrival in Jordan, Talat said that they were remained in Israeli custody for three days.

While expressing gratitude to the nation, Talat Hussain said that the prayers of the nation make him possible to sustain in tough days.

Answering the question about the assault, he said at least 60 Israeli commandos attacked the flotilla vessel, adding that he witnessed the deaths of four mates.

About his return to Pakistan, Talat said that he will arrived back home on Thursday&#8217;s evening.

brecorder.com

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## Aslan

The madness of arrogance Dr Alan Sabrosky 

2 June 2010 Israels attack on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla on Americas Memorial Day was all too predictable, although the form it took surprised many. And it confirms the old proverb that Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad, for the attack was the kind of madness only unbridled arrogance can assume.
It wasnt just that foreigners as well as Palestinians, flying flags other than that of Palestine, were attacked. Israel has a long history of doing such things, especially to the UN. But except for the USS Liberty incident in 1967, it has generally done that on inland sites  Gaza, the West Bank, the Lebanon  where it can largely block news and visual evidence, and control the spin it puts on events, counting on its friends in the US and other mainstream media to say little or nothing to contradict them.

Not this time. An attack on the open seas, in acknowledged international waters, against unarmed ships carrying humanitarian aid with passengers and crews from many countries  especially a direct attack against a Turkish ship  is a different matter, and potentially an explosive one. The number of shipboard casualties indicates that once fighting started, the Israeli commandos simply sprayed automatic weapons fire into the people around them  another of their long-standing habits.

And technology is their enemy here, just as it became in an earlier day the enemy of communist regimes in the former Soviet Union and other Eastern European countries. Too many images and videos were taken, and some sent, and too many witnesses reported what was happening, before the Israelis were able to suppress communications &#8232;from their victims.

Bad for their victims, but also potentially very bad for Israel, and the initial Israeli public-relations damage control efforts show that they are at least dimly aware of that fact. Trying to cast the attack in international waters as an exercise in self-defense would be ludicrous in the best or worst of circumstances  has anyone ever seen wheelchairs used as offensive weaponry?

And for the Israeli spokeswoman to try to spin an assault by warships and armed commandos as defense against a lynch (I guess she was trying to push an American hot button for Obama  someone should tell her it is lynching or lynch mob) would have embarrassed even her public relations soul-mate, Dr. Josef Goebbels. But desperate do what desperation dictates, I suppose, although this time they may well have gone way too far.

And that is what the initial responses appear to affirm. All of the major US and many other media outlets are carrying this story, and even with the slant from many Jewish correspondents based in Jerusalem or Ashdod, the bloody particulars are slowly coming through to at least a general American audience for the first time:

1. The unarmed ships with unarmed passengers were trying to ferry humanitarian and reconstruction aid to ravaged and embattled Gaza.

2. Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza, probably if not certainly in violation of international law, supported largely by US vetoes in the UN &#8232;Security Council.

3. Israeli warships and commandos intercepted and attacked the aid flotilla in international waters  which is an act of war, piracy or state terrorism, depending on ones view of the details.

4. Under attack, some of the passengers tried to defend themselves, scores were killed or wounded, and some Israeli commandos were also wounded  doubtless a surprise to them, but then their usual run of victims may have made them &#8232;a bit too cocky.

5. Many governments and publics around the world  not only in Arab capitals  are openly outraged, and the discussion forums on US news websites carrying the story suggest that much the same is happening at a public level in this country.

6. But for Israel, this is just another we are the misunderstood victim incident in a long, sordid and utterly unbelievable litany of such things  except that this time, they may not get away with it.

This is a time for those interested in justice for Palestine to seize the moment and act, building on the promise engendered but not fulfilled after the submission of the Goldstone &#8232;Report to the HRC.

Americans shouldnt bother with letters or emails to US Senators or Representatives, or Obama; AIPAC will be there ahead of you with more letters and money than you can generate. Go instead directly to the local offices of US Senators and Representatives, stay until you speak personally to the senior person there, and make your case as forcefully as you can.

Make sure as many people hear you as possible  but be polite, and leave your signs at home.

For the world community, now is the time and this is the incident to drive home the UN Uniting for Peace Resolution, in both the Security Council and the General Assembly as needed. The nationalities of the victims will at least neutralise many European countries that might have opposed it before. Sanctions, embargoes, even the suspension or expulsion of Israel from the UN itself, do as much as quickly and as forcefully as possible.

Remember that the cornerstone of our oaths is not to obedience, but to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Think about it on this Memorial Day.

Alan Sabrosky (Ph.D, University of Michigan) is a 10-year US Marine Corps veteran and a graduate of the US Army War College

The madness of arrogance

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## Comet

looking forward to Talat Hussain's remarks.


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## Aslan

Owais said:


> * Talat says will show real face of Israel*
> 
> AMMAN (updated on: June 02, 2010, 10:04 PST): Executive Director News and current affairs of Aaj News Talat Hussain has said that he will show the real face of Israel by releasing the footage of Israeli commandos assault, Aaj News reported.
> 
> Talking to Aaj News after his arrival in Jordan, Talat said that they were remained in Israeli custody for three days.
> 
> While expressing gratitude to the nation, Talat Hussain said that the prayers of the nation make him possible to sustain in tough days.
> 
> Answering the question about the assault, he said at least 60 Israeli commandos attacked the flotilla vessel, adding that he witnessed the deaths of four mates.
> 
> About his return to Pakistan, Talat said that he will arrived back home on Thursdays evening.
> 
> brecorder.com




I really doubt that they have the footage, as mentioned by many that the jews just broke the cameras. And they took every thing away from the people on the ships. I was listening to that interview and I think that Talat was mentioning that the world had already seen the footage, and not that he had it. But yet again I could be wrong as I had just woken up in the morning and might have miss heard the interview.


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## Aslan

umairp said:


> looking forward to Talat Hussain's remarks.



His interview will definitely be interesting, as we will get to find out more about the incidents of the day. Also Talat mentioned that a reporter was in his lap with a bullet wounds on his back and arm, that he was looking afte and also he had seen 4 people dieing. So he was in the middle of the mess, so his accounts will be more accurate.


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## fawwaxs




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## ek_indian

jonasad said:


> Terrorsit state America supporting terrorist state israel nothing new..
> Did india condemn the attack on innocent humantarians officialy?



Yes. India did. 

The Hindu : News : India condemns Israeli attack

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## fawwaxs

*Evidence belies Israeli claim*

They were called "terrorists and al-Qaeda sympathisers"... they were "armed and had planned a premeditated attack"... and finally hours after waiting in the sun to see the evidence, Israel said it would take the media inside the Ashdod port and let us see the cargo carried aboard the Freedom Flotilla...

These are some of the images (captured with my cell phone) of what I saw... children toys, medicines, text books, wheel chairs and much more... not exactly a list of contraband posing a risk to Israel's security as it has claimed, is it? 

But the biggest irony in this tragedy is not just that the "weapons" Israel claims were on board have not yet materialised or been shown to the media, its that the aid, which Israel says Gaza does not need, and the aid which was on board the flotilla heading to Gaza and prevented by Israel from reaching its shores is now being delivered to Gaza by Israel as quickly as possible.

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## Marxist

*Pakistani flotilla witness says Israelis shot victims in cold blood *

Islamabad - A Pakistani journalist who was captured during a naval attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla alleged Wednesday that Israeli soldiers were shooting people in cold blood.

Talat Hussain, one of the 124 people arriving in Jordan following their release by Israeli authorities, claimed that the commandos "shot people in the forehead."

"I witnessed myself the first Israeli assault on the ship. There was no weapon on the ship," Hussain told Aaj news channel by phone from Jordan. "Scuffles broke out when Israelis tried to arrest people. After that people threw at the Israelis whatever they got hold of.

"Four people were shot in the forehead in front me. I witnessed four people dying," Hussain, executive director and anchorman of Aaj Television, said.

He added that he would provide video of the whole episode and further details later on in his television programme.

Hussain's cameraman and a Pakistani aid worker were also among those deported through Jordan.

The Israeli naval attack on the flotilla triggered public anger in Pakistan, with activists holding several protest rallies across the country on daily basis.

Pakistan, which has no diplomatic ties with Israel, condemned the attack as "a flagrant violation of international law and norms."Israel naval commandos stormed the flotilla early Monday morning, after the *six ships refused orders to change course and sail to the Israeli port of Ashdod, instead of the Gaza Strip*.

The assault, which saw commandos on one ship battle activists wielding iron bars and clubs, left nine people dead and unleashed a wave of condemnation against the Jewish state.

Pakistani flotilla witness says Israelis shot victims in cold blood | Earth Times News


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## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> *
> 
> 
> He added that he would provide video of the whole episode and further details later on in his television programme.
> 
> [/url]*


*

but israeli soldiers took or broke all the cameras?*


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## Usama86

Talat Hussain and co. are safe in jordan now.... surely more video footage is coming up which will give the real picture according to Talat Hussain.


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## Ahmad

not surprised.


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## Marxist

Ahmad said:


> but israeli soldiers took or broke all the cameras?



dont know how...Cameras are broken,spend three days on Israeli detention,there were reports all communications were broken at the time of attack (so no chance of uploading or sending) .we have to wait till he reaches Pakistan


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## Marxist

*Israel Compares Flotilla Raid With WWII* 

Israel's ambassador to the US has compared the deadly raid on the Gaza aid flotilla with America's battles against the Germans in World War Two.

In an interview with Sky's American sister station Fox News, Michael Oren described the operation, in which at least nine people died, as "perfectly legal, perfectly humane - and very responsible".

"Israel has to make some hard choices sometimes," he stressed, "We live in a rough neighbourhood."

When questioned about the global condemnation of the violence and accusations of "state-sponsored piracy on the open seas", he denied there had been any breach of international law in raiding the ships.

"Israel acted in accord with international law," he said.

"Any state has the right to protect itself, certainly from a terrorist threat such as Hamas, including on the open seas.




Alex Watts, Sky News Online
Israel's ambassador to the US has compared the deadly raid on the Gaza aid flotilla with America's battles against the Germans in World War Two.

In an interview with Sky's American sister station Fox News, Michael Oren described the operation, in which at least nine people died, as "perfectly legal, perfectly humane - and very responsible".

"Israel has to make some hard choices sometimes," he stressed, "We live in a rough neighbourhood."

When questioned about the global condemnation of the violence and accusations of "state-sponsored piracy on the open seas", he denied there had been any breach of international law in raiding the ships.

"Israel acted in accord with international law," he said.

"Any state has the right to protect itself, certainly from a terrorist threat such as Hamas, including on the open seas.

Relatives of those believed to have been taking part can contact the Consular Team in London.

A Foreign Office official talking to Sky News

"The US acted under similar international law when it fought the Germans and the Japanese in World War Two."

He reiterated that Israel would immediately deport activists seized from the six-ship flotilla.

Nearly 700 foreign nationals being held in Israeli jails are expected to be deported today and tomorrow.

Some 124 detainees from 12 Muslim nations were taken across the border into Jordan in the early hours of this morning.

It is thought they are from countries that do not have diplomatic ties with Israel.

A total of 42 Britons - including 11 people with dual nationality - are known to have been detained by security forces.

Demonstrators try to set fire to an Israeli flag during a protest near the Israeli Consulate in Istanbul

Demonstrators in Istanbul set fire to Israeli flags after the bloodshed

Foreign Secretary William Hague said they will be brought home as soon as possible. Some are already back in the UK.

Meanwhile, President Obama has offered his condolences to Turkey after four Turkish activists were confirmed to have died in the violence.

And Egypt has opened its border crossing with Gaza to allow aid to get through after signing a temporary agreement with Israel.

The Secretary General of the United Nations Ban Ki-Moon is holding meetings in New York to discuss the situation.

The UN Security Council has condemned the raid and called for a "prompt, impartial, credible, transparent" investigation.

Gaza: Israel Ambassador Michael Oren Compares Flotilla Raid With World War Two | World News | Sky News


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## Khan007

Maybe Talat has some backup system of which even the Israelis have no idea. I am very interested if something surprising comes up within the next 48 hours against the Israelis


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## under cover

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Ah look who comes in advocating state terrorism of israel?blinded by the flash of few israeli weapons deals with india...... they say a man is known by the company he keeps..........India and israel?both use terrorism.be it indian occupied kashmir or israhelli occupied gaza?



What a crap!! Kashmir is an integral part of India while gaza isnt integral part of Israel.

Dont act smart by comparing the two. Pakistan wont and wont and wont get kashmir till eternity. Mark my words. You can keep on playing delluded like you have been since past 60 years.

We will keep on growing at 9 %


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## Marxist

*Indian-origin Aid Worker on Ship Attacked By Israel*

London, June 2 &#8211; An Indian-origin British aid worker is on the ship that was part of the Gaza-bound flotilla attacked by Israel. His family, anxiously waiting for news about his whereabouts, say it was as though their worst nightmares were coming true.

Hours before the troops moved in Monday, Ismail Adam Patel, an optician based in the Oadby area of Leicester, posted a video on YouTube describing how they were surrounded by Israeli navy forces.

He can be seen standing on deck with a lifejacket and saying: &#8216;At the moment, we can see three frigates and a helicopter is hovering overhead, despite the fact we are in international waters, some 100 miles from the shores of Israel. We call upon everybody in Britain to help us to raise the alarm and get our government to intervene.&#8217;

Patel is one of 28 British citizens who boarded the flotilla in Cyprus Sunday. It was carrying humanitarian supplies to the Gaza strip.

He is also the chairman of pro-Palestinian organisation Friends of Al Aqsa, based in Leicester.

Patel&#8217;s brother Shockat told the Leicester Mercury newspaper: &#8216;When we heard what had happened it was as though our worst nightmares were coming true.

&#8216;Before he left we hoped everything would go smoothly but there was always a risk it could go wrong.&#8217;

Suleman Nagdi, spokesman for Leicestershire Federation of Muslim Organisations, said: &#8216;We are trying to do everything practically possible to help the family. My fear is those who are injured will be taken into custody. No contact has been made with Ismail since midnight last night, and watching the scenes on TV of the barbaric actions of the Israeli army only intensifies the concern for his welfare felt by his family.&#8217;

Edward Garnier, MP from Harborough adjoining Leicester, added: &#8216;I have spoken to two foreign office ministers and have passed on his details. I know they are actively checking to see if he is hurt or not. I spoke to him before his trip and he sent me messages up until he got on the flotilla.&#8217;

In London, pro-Palestinian campaigners staged a blockade near Whitehall shouting &#8216;Stop Israel&#8217;s War Crimes in Gaza&#8217; and spoke of their fears about the fate of British citizens and others aboard the flotilla.

Hundreds of activists blocked Whitehall shouting &#8216;Free Palestine&#8217; and carried flags and banners with slogans such as &#8216;Stop Israel&#8217;s War Crimes in Gaza&#8217; and &#8216;End the Criminal Siege of Gaza&#8217;.

The convoy of six ships had about 600 volunteers on board and the activists were trying to defy a blockade imposed by Israel after Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007.

Indian-origin Aid Worker on Ship Attacked By Israel | Vamban News


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## mjnaushad

US deserve another "NOBEL PEACE PRIZE"....

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## Dr.Evil

I think the whole drama is being created by Tukey and Islamic party Led Prime Minister.
He wants to takecharge of the muslim world, which has been neglected by turkey until now. The Prime Minister of turkey wants to be more integrated with muslim world than with Europe.


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## All-Green

Dr.Evil said:


> I think the *whole drama is being created by Tukey and Islamic party Led Prime Minister.*
> He wants to takecharge of the muslim world, which has been neglected by turkey until now. The Prime Minister of turkey wants to be more integrated with muslim world than with Europe.



To break a siege in order to supply food, medicines, utensils, toys etc, to a very needy people is the noblest of causes, nothing about it can be labeled as a drama created by Turkey.
If at all, Turkey has shown great moral courage in sending the message across to all the world, which has taken note of Israeli brutality.

To call it a drama is quite an ignorant and a very abrasive comment, especially when the flotilla was attacked in international waters by Israel.
You think the suffering of the Palestinians is a drama?
You think that without adequate provisions they will not be going through hell?

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## mjnaushad

Dr.Evil said:


> I think the whole drama is being created by Tukey and Islamic party Led Prime Minister.
> He wants to takecharge of the muslim world, which has been neglected by turkey until now. The Prime Minister of turkey wants to be more integrated with muslim world than with Europe.


For your information there were christian on that ship too.......

After failing to defend that terrorist act you guyz now came to Muslims V Jews...

That ship was for everybody suffering in Gaza regardless of Muslim, Jews, Christian or any other minority.

Killing of children, women and old in GAZA is a drama...Even if they dont shoot letting them die with hunger because of blockade is drama.....

I dont know where you've lost your humanity.....


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## su-47

Dr.Evil said:


> I think the whole drama is being created by Tukey and Islamic party Led Prime Minister.
> He wants to takecharge of the muslim world, which has been neglected by turkey until now. The Prime Minister of turkey wants to be more integrated with muslim world than with Europe.



dude come on! while i agree that the flotilla was a political statement, the core essence of it was to deliver aid. and it was not just Turkey sending aid. Greece, Cyprus and other European nations were involved. 

lets call a spade a spade

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## pkd

Dr.Evil said:


> I think the whole drama is being created by Tukey and Islamic party Led Prime Minister.
> He wants to takecharge of the muslim world, which has been neglected by turkey until now. The Prime Minister of turkey wants to be more integrated with muslim world than with Europe.



Going by your logic, Mumbai was a drama staged and orchestrated by india to get some attention and world sympathy.

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## Peregrine

Hi
it is this kind of American biased & sinister policies that provoke frustrated & subjugated people to take steps like 9/11, & then Americans act all innocent we didn't do a thing why were we attacked


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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> I think the whole drama is being created by Tukey and Islamic party Led Prime Minister.
> He wants to takecharge of the muslim world, which has been neglected by turkey until now. The Prime Minister of turkey wants to be more integrated with muslim world than with Europe.



i have got a question for you, please take your time and answer me. what is the solution to the plight and suffering of palestinians then? do you ever recognnize their plight in the first place or not? and if you dod then what is the solution for it. how can you solve the issue of palestine and israel in general? what is your proposals to this matter?

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## gurjot

pkd said:


> Going by your logic, Mumbai was a drama staged and orchestrated by india to get some attention and world sympathy.



and pak govt accepted that,even cases are still in the pak court,so pathetic....


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## mjnaushad

gurjot said:


> and pak govt accepted that,even cases are still in the pak court,so pathetic....


So you accept that was a drama.......My sympathy with poor souls died in 26/11.

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## mjnaushad

Ahmad said:


> i have got a question for you, please take your time and answer me. what is the solution to the plight and suffering of palestinians then? do you ever recognnize their plight in the first place or not? and if you dod then what is the solution for it. how can you solve the issue of palestine and israel in general? what is your proposals to this matter?


If he type the truth.....

his answer will be ....

Let israeli kill all palesinian. Problem solved.


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## shining eyes

*Irish aid boat holds course towards Gaza despite Israel warning*
MV Rachel Corrie avoided capture during flotilla raid but Israeli lieutenant says 'we will be ready'
Medical supplies being loaded into the MV Rachel Corrie, which was named after a 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003. Photograph: Niall Carson/PA
The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.

The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.

The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board &#8211; among them the Nobel peace laureate M&#225;iread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat &#8211; discussed whether they should continue.

It was now carrying as a "second wave" of the flotilla, said Niamh Moloughney, who organised the sailing in Ireland.

"I'd say the mood on board is resilient and steadfast. When people signed up to this they knew what might happen," said Moloughney. "We expected we would be confronted and there would be a stand-off, but no one expected this. But there's never really been a question of the boat turning back."

As well as the Irish nationals, the 1,200-tonne boat is carrying six Malaysians and eight crew of varying nationalities.

All those on board had received training in non-violent resistance before the sailing and had pledged not to fight back if the boat was boarded, Moloughney added.

Speaking on the boat's satellite phone, Maguire said she was determined the boat should continue on its course.

"We're not frightened, no, we hope the Israeli government will allow us to go freely in and we know the international community are calling for our safe passage," she said.

Halliday said he had spoken to Ireland's foreign minister, Miche&#225;l Martin. "He was very reassuring that the government was behind us and he gave us a complete green light to do what we're doing and he'll protect us as much as he can," Halliday said.

Martin himself told parliament: "We will be watching this situation very closely &#8211; as indeed will the world &#8211; and it is imperative that Israel avoid any action which leads to further bloodshed."

It appeared clear, however, that Israel planned to stop the ship.

The country's military was carrying out "professional investigations" into what happened in Monday's raid, an Israeli marine lieutenant, who was not identified, told Israel's Army Radio. He added: "And we will also be ready for the Rachel Corrie."The boat, which was bought at auction by the Free Gaza Movement after being impounded a year before in Dundalk, is carrying a consignment including medical equipment, wheelchairs, school supplies and cement, according to the organisation.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

Medical supplies being loaded into the MV Rachel Corrie, which was named after a 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003. Photograph: Niall Carson/PA
The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.

The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.

The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board &#8211; among them the Nobel peace laureate M&#225;iread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat &#8211; discussed whether they should continue.

It was now carrying as a "second wave" of the flotilla, said Niamh Moloughney, who organised the sailing in Ireland.

"I'd say the mood on board is resilient and steadfast. When people signed up to this they knew what might happen," said Moloughney. "We expected we would be confronted and there would be a stand-off, but no one expected this. But there's never really been a question of the boat turning back."

As well as the Irish nationals, the 1,200-tonne boat is carrying six Malaysians and eight crew of varying nationalities.

All those on board had received training in non-violent resistance before the sailing and had pledged not to fight back if the boat was boarded, Moloughney added.

Speaking on the boat's satellite phone, Maguire said she was determined the boat should continue on its course.

"We're not frightened, no, we hope the Israeli government will allow us to go freely in and we know the international community are calling for our safe passage," she said.

Halliday said he had spoken to Ireland's foreign minister, Miche&#225;l Martin. "He was very reassuring that the government was behind us and he gave us a complete green light to do what we're doing and he'll protect us as much as he can," Halliday said.

Martin himself told parliament: "We will be watching this situation very closely &#8211; as indeed will the world &#8211; and it is imperative that Israel avoid any action which leads to further bloodshed."

It appeared clear, however, that Israel planned to stop the ship.

The country's military was carrying out "professional investigations" into what happened in Monday's raid, an Israeli marine lieutenant, who was not identified, told Israel's Army Radio. He added: "And we will also be ready for the Rachel Corrie."The boat, which was bought at auction by the Free Gaza Movement after being impounded a year before in Dundalk, is carrying a consignment including medical equipment, wheelchairs, school supplies and cement, according to the organisation.


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## pkd

gurjot said:


> and pak govt accepted


from day one that it was a plot scripted in india by india for india.


gurjot said:


> even cases are still in the pak court,so pathetic....



No such cases are pending other than in you self-defined wishful fantacy world.


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## Ahmad

mjnaushad said:


> If he type the truth.....
> 
> his answer will be ....
> 
> Let israeli kill all palesinian. Problem solved.



i am still listening to him to see what he says. although there are some indian members who are shamelessly siding with the terrorists(and who knows they might not be from india anways), but there are alot of other indian members who have had a balanced approach with i appreciate it.

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## Marxist

*Nicaragua suspends diplomatic ties with Israel*

MANAGUA, June 1 (Xinhua) -- The Nicaraguan government Tuesday suspended the country's diplomatic ties with Israel in protest of the Jewish state's deadly raid on the Gaza-bound international aid flotilla on Monday.

Government spokeswoman Rosario Murillo, who is wife of Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, announced the move in a short statement.

"Nicaragua suspends from today its diplomatic relations with the government of Israel," said the statement.

The Nicaraguan government "emphasized the illegal nature of the attack on a humanitarian mission in clear violation of international and humanitarian law," it added.

The Israeli navy backed with helicopters attacked early Monday morning the flotilla in the Mediterranean international waters with live ammunition and gas bombs, killing at least 10 people on board and injuring over 30 others.

The UN Security Council on Tuesday condemned the Israeli move, calling for "the immediate release" of the ships and personnel held by Israel. 

Nicaragua suspends diplomatic ties with Israel

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## Khan007

The whole world has its guns on Israel. Israel you're fcuked up big time


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## Spring Onion

Marxist said:


> *Nicaragua suspends diplomatic ties with Israel*
> 
> MANAGUA, June 1 (Xinhua) -- The Nicaraguan government Tuesday suspended the country's diplomatic ties with Israel in protest of the Jewish state's deadly raid on the Gaza-bound international aid flotilla on Monday.
> 
> Government spokeswoman Rosario Murillo, who is wife of Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, announced the move in a short statement.
> 
> "Nicaragua suspends from today its diplomatic relations with the government of Israel," said the statement.
> 
> The Nicaraguan government "emphasized the illegal nature of the attack on a humanitarian mission in clear violation of international and humanitarian law," it added.
> 
> The Israeli navy backed with helicopters attacked early Monday morning the flotilla in the Mediterranean international waters with live ammunition and gas bombs, killing at least 10 people on board and injuring over 30 others.
> 
> The UN Security Council on Tuesday condemned the Israeli move, calling for "the immediate release" of the ships and personnel held by Israel.
> 
> Nicaragua suspends diplomatic ties with Israel


 yes we salute you everyone who has some conscience despite the pressure from terrorist allies of terrorist Israel.


----------



## Marxist

*Eyewitnesses recount Israel flotilla raid*

Some of the first accounts emerged Tuesday from eyewitnesses who were aboard several boats stormed by Israeli forces as they approached Gaza the day before.

*Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament*, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of a confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. That clash left at least nine people dead.

*The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters*, Zoabi said during a press conference in Nazareth, Israel. *She said passengers on board the ship were unarmed.*

Israel has said its forces found several weapons among the passengers on the Miva Marmara. Israel also has said that its forces started shooting after passengers on the Miva Marmara assaulted them.

Zoabi said the military operation lasted about an hour and that she saw five dead bodies in that time.

She urged Israeli authorities to investigate and to let the news media interview passengers who have been detained.

Zoabi said she believes Israel has video footage of how the ten passengers were killed, and she called on Israeli authorities to release that footage.

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has said that of the six ships in the flotilla, the people prepared an ambush on one, a reference to the Turkish ship. But on the other five, "the people got off without a scratch."

Huwaida Arraf, one of the Free Gaza Movement organizers, told CNN Israeli troops roughed her up when they responded aggressively to her ship, a smaller one in the flotilla that was near the Turkish vessel where the casualties occurred.

"They started coming after our ship," she told CNN, "so we took off and they charged us also. Eventually, they overtook our ship and they used concussion grenades, sound bombs and pellets."

She said the people on her ship tried to keep them off. She said they were told the vessel was American and the people aboard were unarmed.

But, she said "they started beating people. My head was smashed against the ground and they stepped on my head. They later cuffed me and put a bag over my head. They did that to everybody."

Her account could not be independently verified.

Eyewitnesses recount Israel flotilla raid - CNN.com


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## Spring Onion

Ahmad said:


> i am still listening to him to see what he says. although there are some indian members who are shamelessly siding with the terrorists(and who knows they might not be from india anways), but there are alot of other indian members who have had a balanced approach with i appreciate it.



Please report all those trolls who are trying to derail the thread because they dont have guts to condemn terrorist state of Israel but they also dont have the moral ground to even let the civilized world condemn this terrorism.


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## Khan007

Marxist said:


> *Eyewitnesses recount Israel flotilla raid*
> 
> Some of the first accounts emerged Tuesday from eyewitnesses who were aboard several boats stormed by Israeli forces as they approached Gaza the day before.
> 
> Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, was on board the Miva Marmara, the ship that was the scene of a confrontation between activists and Israeli soldiers. That clash left at least nine people dead.
> 
> The Israeli Navy fired on the ships five minutes before commandos descended from ropes that dangled from helicopters, Zoabi said during a press conference in Nazareth, Israel. She said passengers on board the ship were unarmed.
> 
> Israel has said its forces found several weapons among the passengers on the Miva Marmara. Israel also has said that its forces started shooting after passengers on the Miva Marmara assaulted them.
> 
> Zoabi said the military operation lasted about an hour and that she saw five dead bodies in that time.
> 
> She urged Israeli authorities to investigate and to let the news media interview passengers who have been detained.
> 
> Zoabi said she believes Israel has video footage of how the ten passengers were killed, and she called on Israeli authorities to release that footage.
> 
> Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has said that of the six ships in the flotilla, the people prepared an ambush on one, a reference to the Turkish ship. But on the other five, "the people got off without a scratch."
> 
> Huwaida Arraf, one of the Free Gaza Movement organizers, told CNN Israeli troops roughed her up when they responded aggressively to her ship, a smaller one in the flotilla that was near the Turkish vessel where the casualties occurred.
> 
> "They started coming after our ship," she told CNN, "so we took off and they charged us also. Eventually, they overtook our ship and they used concussion grenades, sound bombs and pellets."
> 
> She said the people on her ship tried to keep them off. She said they were told the vessel was American and the people aboard were unarmed.
> 
> But, she said "they started beating people. My head was smashed against the ground and they stepped on my head. They later cuffed me and put a bag over my head. They did that to everybody."
> 
> Her account could not be independently verified.
> 
> Eyewitnesses recount Israel flotilla raid - CNN.com


Jana plz don't use CNN as a source for this horrendous attack on civilian ships. They are mostly using Israeli based Media Communications for news source which are doubtful for IDF is providing the news


----------



## Ahmad

Khan007 said:


> The whole world has its guns on Israel. Israel you're fcuked up big time



do you really think so? trust me noting will happen, they will carry on killing people.


----------



## Ahmad

I think british media is relatively balanced compare to the american ones. especially the guardian.


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## Khan007

Ahmad said:


> do you really think so? trust me noting will happen, they will carry on killing people.


This time something WILL happen for sure and I am damn convinced that geo-political scenario of the Middle East will change rapidly within a few days or weeks


----------



## Khan007

Ahmad said:


> I think british media is relatively balanced compare to the american ones. especially the guardian.


You are absolutely right for I am constantly monitoring the Brit Media. They are harshly criticising Israel and when they call an Israeli guest, the anchormen fcuk him/her big time on live broadcast

The Guardian is the most Anti-Israel Newspaper right now and BBC is also full time Anti-Israel in electronic media


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## Aslan

Ahmad said:


> i am still listening to him to see what he says. although there are some indian members who are shamelessly siding with the terrorists(and who knows they might not be from india anways), but there are alot of other indian members who have had a balanced approach with i appreciate it.



Ahmed I have tried to ask the same question from him and his fellows how are singing the same tone about 3-4 times. And they just vanish into thin air for a while just to resurface and troll again. They dont have an answer to your questions at all.


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## Marxist

*Weapons found on Mavi Marmara*

someone has uploaded it on flicker,

Weapons found on Mavi Marmara - a set on Flickr


----------



## apophenia

The US spin on this is fairly predictable.


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## Ganga

The so called "peace" activists are responsible for the deaths of their fellow activists.They tried to show how strong they are and ended up losing 10 of their freinds.Isreal for sure didn't expect things to turn out this way.It never thought that "Peace" workers would becaome violent.


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## JonAsad

Nothing will happen.. A Veto from America in favor of Israel is inevitable.


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## Ahmad

Marxist said:


> *Weapons found on Mavi Marmara*
> 
> someone has uploaded it on flicker,
> 
> Weapons found on Mavi Marmara - a set on Flickr



yes, saw those weapons, really dangerous, especially the green flags which was shown in every picture.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## JonAsad

Marxist said:


> *Weapons found on Mavi Marmara*
> 
> someone has uploaded it on flicker,
> 
> Weapons found on Mavi Marmara - a set on Flickr



The ship is docked at Israeli port, as far as i am concerned now IDF can even find weapons of mass destructions on it.

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## Ahmad

Khan007 said:


> You are absolutely right for I am constantly monitoring the Brit Media. They are harshly criticising Israel and when they call an Israeli guest, the anchormen fcuk him/her big time on live broadcast
> 
> The Guardian is the most Anti-Israel Newspaper right now and BBC is also full time Anti-Israel in electronic media



no my friend, they are not anti israeli or pro somebody else, read the guardian properly and you will see how balanced they are. they go and dig the news and commentary from all sides and reflects the news from both sides, their reports are both fair and free. they are not pro or anti anybody.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Spring Onion

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> it is this kind of American biased & sinister policies that provoke frustrated & subjugated people to take steps like 9/11, & then Americans act all innocent we didn't do a thing why were we attacked



 this kind of support by US to terrorist state of Israel is going to backfire if not against Israelis but against US citizens most likely.


Its unfortunate that handful of zionists have made American public as well as its govt hostage


----------



## SpArK

*Indian-origin aid worker on ship attacked by Israel*


Indian-origin aid worker on ship attacked by Israel - Indians Abroad - World - The Times of India

LONDON: An Indian-origin British aid worker is on the ship that was part of the Gaza-bound flotilla attacked by Israel. His family, anxiously waiting for news about his whereabouts, says it was as though their worst nightmares were coming true.

Hours before the troops moved in on Monday, Ismail Adam Patel, an optician based in the Oadby area of Leicester, posted a video on YouTube describing how they were surrounded by Israeli navy forces.

He can be seen standing on deck with a lifejacket and saying: "At the moment, we can see three frigates and a helicopter is hovering overhead, despite the fact we are in international waters, some 100 miles from the shores of Israel. We call upon everybody in Britain to help us to raise the alarm and get our government to intervene."

Patel is one of 28 British citizens who boarded the flotilla in Cyprus Sunday. It was carrying humanitarian supplies to the Gaza strip.

He is also the chairman of pro-Palestinian organisation Friends of Al Aqsa, based in Leicester.

Patel's brother Shockat told the Leicester Mercury newspaper: "When we heard what had happened it was as though our worst nightmares were coming true.

"Before he left we hoped everything would go smoothly but there was always a risk it could go wrong."

Suleman Nagdi, spokesman for Leicestershire Federation of Muslim Organisations, said: "We are trying to do everything practically possible to help the family. My fear is those who are injured will be taken into custody. No contact has been made with Ismail since midnight last night, and watching the scenes on TV of the barbaric actions of the Israeli army only intensifies the concern for his welfare felt by his family."

Edward Garnier, MP from Harborough adjoining Leicester, added: "I have spoken to two foreign office ministers and have passed on his details. I know they are actively checking to see if he is hurt or not. I spoke to him before his trip and he sent me messages up until he got on the flotilla."

In London, pro-Palestinian campaigners staged a blockade near Whitehall shouting "Stop Israel's War Crimes in Gaza" and spoke of their fears about the fate of British citizens and others aboard the flotilla.

Hundreds of activists blocked Whitehall shouting "Free Palestine" and carried flags and banners with slogans such as "Stop Israel's War Crimes in Gaza" and "End the Criminal Siege of Gaza".

The convoy of six ships had about 600 volunteers on board and the activists were trying to defy a blockade imposed by Israel after Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007.


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## SpArK

Under fire for attacking aid flotilla, Israel drags India, Pak into row

Under fire for attacking aid flotilla, Israel drags India, Pak into row - Middle East - World - The Times of India

JERUSALEM: In an unusual step, Israel, which is facing global criticism for attacking an aid flotilla, has said violent incidents in countries like India and Pakistan in the past one month which claimed 500 lives have been "ignored" while it is being condemned for its "unmistakably defensive actions".

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman "reminded" the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon that in the past month alone 500 people were killed in various incidents in Thailand, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and India, a Foreign Ministry statement said.

"While the international community remained silent and passive, and generally ignored the occurences, Israel is being condemned for unmistakably defensive actions," a Foreign Ministry statement quoted Lieberman as saying.


This is the first time that Israel has dragged India into a controversy. New Delhi has already condemned the Israeli attack on the aid flotilla to the Gaza Strip saying there was no justification for indiscriminate use of force.

He is understood to have told Ban that the incident related to Gaza aid flotilla was about the "basic right of Israeli soldiers to defend themselves against an attack by a gang of thugs and terror supporters who had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of confrontation."

Lieberman expressed "regret" at the behaviour of the international community.

"All of Israel's proposals to the Turkish government to transfer the humanitarian aid in an orderly manner were rejected by flottila's organisers," Lieberman was quoted as saying.

He also accused activists participating in the mission of intentionally trying to breach Israel's sovereignty and creating "provocation that would cause bloodshed".

In an emergency session yesterday, the UN Security Council called for an investigation into Israel's deadly commando raid on ships taking humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip on Monday, condemning the act that resulted in the loss of at least nine lives.

"... the Security Council resolution is unacceptable and contributes nothing to the promotion of peace and stability in the Middle East," Lieberman said.


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## Ahmad

India has already done the right thing.


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## SpArK

*India not convinced by Israel's action*


India not convinced by Israel's action - dnaindia.com


New Delhi: *After India joined the international condemnation of the strong arm tactics of the Israeli stateagainst the storming of the humanitarian flotilla carrying aid to the embargoed civilians of Gaza, the Israeli embassy on Tuesday went into damage control mode.*

It sent out statements questioning the bonafides of some of the charitable groups involved in the campaign to take aid to the long suffering civilians of Gaza.

But despite Israeli&#8217;s attempts to justify its military action, few in India are willing to buy that line. In fact, the Indian government for the first time in many years came out with a strong statement against Israel. *Demonstrations are also being organised in Delhi and other Indian cities to condemn the brutal action.*

Israel now claims that the Turkish Insani Yardin Vakfi (IHH) or Humanitarian Relief Fund, a charitable outfit which among others have organised the flotilla has radical Islamic roots and is close to Hamas.

In recent years it has prominently supported Hamas (through the Union of Good). In addition, in the past the IHH provided logistical support and funding to global jihad networks,&#8217;&#8217; the Israeli embassy said, fishingout past reports to justify Israeli action.

The embassy also quoted a 2006study by an American researcher Evan Kohlman, working in the Danish Institute for International Studies to provethat in the pastthe Turkish IHH had connections with al Qaeda and global jihad operatives.

Israel also claims that Turkish charity&#8217;s orientation is radical-Islamic and anti-Western, and it is close to the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas&#8217; parent movement).


----------



## JonAsad

BENNY said:


> Under fire for attacking aid flotilla, Israel drags India, Pak into row
> 
> Under fire for attacking aid flotilla, Israel drags India, Pak into row - Middle East - World - The Times of India
> 
> JERUSALEM: In an unusual step, Israel, which is facing global criticism for attacking an aid flotilla, has said violent incidents in countries like India and Pakistan in the past one month which claimed 500 lives have been "ignored" while it is being condemned for its "unmistakably defensive actions".
> 
> Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman "reminded" the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon that in the past month alone 500 people were killed in various incidents in Thailand, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and India, a Foreign Ministry statement said.
> 
> "While the international community remained silent and passive, and generally ignored the occurences, Israel is being condemned for unmistakably defensive actions," a Foreign Ministry statement quoted Lieberman as saying.
> 
> 
> This is the first time that Israel has dragged India into a controversy. New Delhi has already condemned the Israeli attack on the aid flotilla to the Gaza Strip saying there was no justification for indiscriminate use of force.
> 
> He is understood to have told Ban that the incident related to Gaza aid flotilla was about the "basic right of Israeli soldiers to defend themselves against an attack by a gang of thugs and terror supporters who had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of confrontation."
> 
> Lieberman expressed "regret" at the behaviour of the international community.
> 
> "All of Israel's proposals to the Turkish government to transfer the humanitarian aid in an orderly manner were rejected by flottila's organisers," Lieberman was quoted as saying.
> 
> He also accused activists participating in the mission of intentionally trying to breach Israel's sovereignty and creating "provocation that would cause bloodshed".
> 
> In an emergency session yesterday, the UN Security Council called for an investigation into Israel's deadly commando raid on ships taking humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip on Monday, condemning the act that resulted in the loss of at least nine lives.
> 
> "... the Security Council resolution is unacceptable and contributes nothing to the promotion of peace and stability in the Middle East," Lieberman said.



Lol my indian friends defend Israel now


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## SpArK

*A Zionist-Apartheid dirty deal*
Wednesday, June 02, 2010
Praful Bidwai

A Zionist-Apartheid dirty deal

*As the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference concludes in New York, the western powers led by the United States are focussing on west Asia, because they want Iran to freeze its nuclear activities. But inevitably, attention is getting riveted on Israel, the region's sole nuclear weapons power.*

Against this backdrop comes the sensational disclosure from the just-released book, The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa, that *Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to white-racist, apartheid South Africa in 1975*, and the two states closely coordinated their military programmes and strategic approaches.

This expose is based on "top secret" minutes of meetings between senior South African and Israeli officials accessed by the author, US-based scholar Sasha Pulakow-Suransky. The minutes were recently declassified by the South African government, despite Israel's strong opposition. The disclosure will seriously embarrass Israel, whose intransigence against ending its illegal occupation of Palestine and halting settlements is increasingly isolating it internationally and in western public opinion.

The book says South Africa's defence minister P W Botha asked for nuclear warheads when he met Shimon Peres, Israel's defence minister and now its president, who agreed to supply them "in three sizes". *They signed a wide-ranging agreement on bilateral military relations, with a clause stipulating that its "very existence" must remain secret.* The military relations were crucial. Israel generously supplied South Africa arms when it faced international economic-military sanctions. South Africa is believed to have made at least six nuclear weapons, but destroyed them before apartheid ended.

The book drives one more stake into Israel's "nuclear ambiguity" policy of neither confirming nor denying nuclear weapons possession. Independent sources, including *Israeli whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu, confirm that Israel has 200 to 300 nuclear warheads. *The book also demolishes Israel's claim that it's a "responsible" state which wouldn't use nuclear weapons even if it had them -- unlike Iran, which might well use them or transfer them to Hezbollah. But a nation which not only helped pariah apartheid South Africa overcome richly-deserved international sanctions, but also supplied it mass-destruction weapons, cannot be "responsible". *South Africa's military wanted nuclear weapons as a deterrent and for potential attacks upon its neighbours -- just as Israel did, and still does.
*
*No state in modern history has been more shamelessly racist, unequal, undemocratic, and inhuman than apartheid South Africa. If that was at minimum a rogue state, Zionist Israel is in the same league.* Pulakow-Suransky shows that Israeli and South African officials held crucial talks in March 1975, at which the former "formally offered to sell South Africa" some nuclear-capable Jericho missiles. Present there was South African military chief RF Armstrong whose "top secret" memorandum detailed the missiles' benefits for South Africa -- but only if they were fitted with nuclear weapons.

After the 1973 Yom Kippur war, Israel was short of uranium, of which South Africa has large reserves. Israel also needed hard currency. It got both by selling conventional weapons, and by sharing nuclear know-how with South Africa and converting some of its yellowcake (mixed oxides of uranium) into weapons-grade plutonium. The IsraelSouth Africa alliance was close and strategic. In 1987, Israel adopted its own sanctions against South Africa but continued with existing arms contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

The alliance was based less on military imperatives than on the two leaderships' shared belief that theirs were two relatively small nations guarding "their land" and "identity" in a hostile environment. Both wanted their privileged colonial settlers to continue in power. Their self-assigned role as regional bulwarks against Communism brought them western support --until global opinion turned against apartheid. Israel forgot Nazi sympathisers' role in putting apartheid's architects into power.

*In a secret deal, South Africa lifted safeguards on 450 tonnes of yellowcake sold to Israel, in return for Israeli supplies of tritium, a nuclear weapons booster. Israel bailed out a South African politician whose bankruptcy would have scuppered the deal. These revelations expose Israel as an ultra-cynical nation culpable of nuclear proliferation.*

Yet, South Africa isn't the only country with which Israel had shady nuclear dealings. Equally implicated from the 1950s onwards were Britain and France, which clandestinely supplied it nuclear materials, including heavy water.

Israel is different from other nuclear weapons-states (NWSs). Its nuclear weapons are undeclared -- unlike those of the US, Russia, Britain, France, China, *India and Pakistan* (or of North Korea, which exploded a crude nuclear bomb in 2006 and another one last year). Israel, like India and Pakistan, hasn't signed the NPT.

However, although dubious, Israel's record of clandestine nuclear collaborations, shady deals and complicity in other countries' weapons pursuits mirrors that of the US, UK, USSR-Russia, China, India and Pakistan. They are all culpable.

India has had overt and clandestine nuclear dealings with the US, UK, Canada, the USSR, China, Russia, even Norway. India built its first bomb using CIRUS, a Canadian-designed reactor to which the US supplied heavy water. The 1974 explosion was called "peaceful", because India didn't want to be seen violating its professed commitment to nuclear disarmament or its "peaceful" use legal commitments to the US and Canada. It also lacked the stomach for more tests.

Pakistan has long collaborated with China clandestinely, which transferred nuclear weapons designs. Dr AQ Khan also pilfered centrifuge designs and suppliers' lists from the Netherlands. The Khan network's dealings with North Korea, Libya and Iran are legend. These needed the collusion of the Pakistani military which exclusively controls the nuclear weapons programme. The US turned a blind eye to Islamabad's nuclear preparations during the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, which made Pakistan a "frontline" state. Poor, technologically primitive North Korea couldn't have made its bomb without a small Soviet-built reactor.

The point is, all NWSs are guilty of either deliberate proliferation or acting in violation of their dual-use technology commitments. Worse, they are the only nations to have used nuclear weapons and practised nuclear blackmail. So, they are totally hypocritical when they single out countries like Iran. Nuclear weapons are unacceptably dangerous in everybody's hands. Although all NWSs rationalise their nuclear arsenals via "deterrence", they have doctrines for actually using nuclear weapons against unarmed civilians. Even deterrence entails that they're in a state of readiness to use them.

The US and USSR came close to doing this during the Cold War. Even Israel contemplated doing so in 1973. Pakistan and India launched nuclear preparations during the 1999 Kargil conflict, and even more dangerously, in the 10 months-long standoff in 2001.

No government that is committed to exterminating millions of non-combatant civilians is "responsible". The current hype about "terrorist groups" acquiring nuclear material serves to legitimise the NWSs' possession of them and to fraudulently distinguish between "responsible" and "irresponsible" actors.

"Responsible NWSs" is a contradiction in terms. The greatest nuclear danger emanates from the NWSs, which seek security through nuclear terror. Non-state actors like Al Qaeda cannot build the elaborate and relatively sophisticated infrastructure that nuclear programmes need. They have even failed to clandestinely buy fissile material. Yet, so long as nuclear weapons exist and are regarded as a currency of power, both state and non-state actors will be tempted to acquire them. The only way of preventing them is to eliminate all nuclear weapons globally.


----------



## Aslan

Chomsky, Gaza and Israe

What is going on at the moment with Israel? You know when it's hit the mainstream when Auckland celeb photographer Norrie Montgomery steps beyond the A list script and voices his anger on facebook - "*Israel is a rogue state and its getting worse...*"

*A couple of weeks back Israel hit the news big time when it barred Jewish American Professor Noam Chomsky from entering Palestinian Territory - The West Bank, having been invited to give a lecture at Bir Zeit University. The news of the eminent scholars detention at the Allenby Bridge and subsequently questioned for several hours by a guard whilst on a line to his superiors, travelled the main media hubs - Hindu Times, Bangkok Post, Jerusalem Post, BBC, CNN, as well as an op Ed in the New York Times and editorials in the Boston Globe and Chicago-Sun Tribune.
*
And this is an excerpt from the Editorial of one of Israel's main newspapers,* Haaretz: "By stopping the illustrious American scholar Prof. Noam Chomsky at the Allenby Bridge and barring his entry into Israel and the Palestinian authority, the Government's outrageous treatment of those with the audacity to criticize its policies has reached new heights. Israel looks like a bully who has been insulted by a superior intellect and is now trying to fight it, arrest it, and expel it."
*
Chomsky, who spent a year in Israel in a kibbutz, and like his father is fluent in Hebrew, regards himself as a friend of Israel. Nonetheless the young guard, on the phone to higher officials told the 81 year old professor *"Israel does not like what you say"*, to which the famous linguist asked him to *try and find a country that does.
*
To paraphrase the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, *is this the way in which a country that claims to be the one true democracy in the Middle East ought to behave? When Chomsky was asked if there was any other country that has barred him he replied, yes - Czechoslovakia in 1968 - i.e. under Soviet rule. The message being clear - this is precisely the sort of behaviour that you'd expect from a totalitarian regime.
*
And now up to 16 international protesters have been killed and over 60 wounded after an encounter by Israeli Defense force vessels with the free Gaza flotilla - attempting to get humanitarian supplies into Gaza. The flotilla included such crazies like 1976 Nobel peace prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators, and an elderly Holocaust survivor.

Of course the reason for the flotilla is *because there is a humanitarian crisis in the Occupied Territory - something the Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman completely denies ("There is no humanitarian crisis"). But Jewish journalist Amira Hass points out that there indeed is. The 360 square km prison of 1.5 million is, for example, stripped of pure water. Ninety per cent of the Coastal aquifer, Gaza's only water source, is unfit for human consumption. And as Hass points out, it's only thanks to UNRWA, international aid programmes, and the 'tunnel economy' that the population is not being starved.*

To quote the Haaretz newspaper again -* "One does not have to be an ardent supporter of Chomsky in order to agree with his view that Israel is behaving like South Africa in the 1960's, when it understood that it was an outcast, but thought it could solve the problem with the help of a better public relations campaign*."

Provocative yet timely sentiments. And all the more profound in that they come from inside Israel.

Wallace's Blog: Chomsky, Gaza and Israel | Back Benches | Television New Zealand | Television | TV One, TV2, TVNZ 6, TVNZ 7

To people who are shamelessly supporting israeli actions please read the above article.


----------



## under cover

Jana said:


> Please report all those trolls who are trying to derail the thread *because they dont have guts to condemn terrorist state of Israel *but they also dont have the moral ground to even let the civilized world condemn this terrorism.



Why the condemnation for?? Allegation for soar Intelligence can be accepted. But the intent was to defend the sovereigneity of nation. So regrets on the loss of innocent lives but no regrets on the motive. Calling self-defence as terrorism is very lame. Israelis do not desire for 72 virgins for getting laid in heaven, for killing non-believers. All that they want is their country should be safe from overt / covert hostility. In essense self-defence cannot be equated with terrorism.

Criticism for showing solidarity with Arab world is altogether different thing. We need not show solidarity to appease our local population, unlike our neighbours. So we wont criticize Israel just for the sake of criticizing it. 

Their (failed) intelligence of ship in disguise of humanitarian mission can be only questioned and/or condemned, but not their intent.


----------



## Ahmad

under cover said:


> Why the condemnation for?? Allegation for soar Intelligence can be accepted. But the intent was to defend the sovereigneity of nation. So regrets on the loss of innocent lives but no regrets on the motive. Calling self-defence as terrorism is very lame. Israelis do not desire for 72 virgins for getting laid in heaven. All that they want is their country should be safe from overt / covert hostility. Their intelligence of ship in disguise of humanitarian mission can be only questined and/or condemned, but not their intent.



oh, you have reached the peak of hypocracy. what else can i say.


----------



## SpArK

*Iran, Hamas seek global anti-Israel bloc*


Iran, Hamas seek global anti-Israel bloc









An international front to break the blockade on the Gaza Strip should be formed, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Tuesday in a phone conversation with Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, the Teheran Times reported.

&#8220;This criminal action revealed the real nature of the Zionists,&#8221; Ahmadinejad said, adding that now the approach of countries toward this outrageous action would be a &#8220;test for their honesty.&#8221;


According to the Teheran Times report *Haniyeh said that Iran is the only nation that has always been on the side of the Palestinian nation*. &#8220;We should try to revive the Palestinian nation&#8217;s violated rights and end the siege of Gaza,&#8221; he added.

On Monday, Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki thanked Europe and the international community for the "harsh response" to Israel's "barbaric commando 
operation," saying Iran identified with the "shahids" who were killed in the IDF raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla.


In the days since the Navy's raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla on Monday, condemnations have been streaming in from Arab countries. Messages of carefully-couched rebuke have been coming from Israel's allies, many urging Israel to include an &#8220;international element&#8221; in any commission of inquiry into the incident, Israel Radio reported Wednesday.


----------



## SpArK

jonasad said:


> Lol my indian friends defend Israel now



LOL .. dont go off topic now

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## Vande Mataram

Jigs said:


> So Osama bin Laden is Innocent till proven guilty ? The Turkish PM while i don't support him on other issues is a PM that works off a no Bullsh*t policy. Remember what happened in Davos he isn't a person that fears Israel like many others do.



Actually, yes he is.
If they catch him alive, they won't kill him. They'll need to take him to court.

@Thank you agreeing that the Turkish PM is nuts. Apparently the Pakistanis here feel that they love him more than you guys do back in Turkey =)



Brotherhood said:


> Hey, Mr genius, you just slap you own face, so by according to you as "innocent till proven guilty" logic, then why the heck from the moment you jump in this thread, you started to defend Israel right the way without hesitation? Yes, this was a heated thread all the way, its on fire since you join in with your flame posts. Stop being a hypocrite, stop pretending to be a nice innocent guy once the mod pop up, you made me feel sick, never had i seen anyone as shameless as you period.



Mr.Genius,
you obviously don't understand English. (oh, sorry I forgot it's not your first language, old joke )
*INNOCENT* until proven GUILTY.
What YOU'RE doing is accusing Israel of being guilty, and calling them terrorists.

*DEFENDING* Israel isn't the same thing as ACCUSING it of something.

Don't just throw words at me. Know their meanings first.




Al-zakir said:


> What other proof do you need?
> 
> Terrorist killer supporter is also terrorist thus it make a terrorist. You shameless bharati blood sucking terrorist. May you rot in hell like rest of your clan.
> 
> No wonder bharatis are hate by subcontinent Muslim.




hahhahaha, really?
Since you bring that "all INDIANS are hated by Muslims in South Asia"

So the 150 Million Muslims in my country hate themselves too? 
And they LOVE Pakistan don't they. 

Also, just so you know. Your government would be considered a terrorist also, for supporting the actions of terrorists in India. Where 300 people (more than this 10 died)

*cough* remember 1 month after the Mumbai,
Zardari: "They were non state actors"

2 months later
Zardari: "Kasab is a Pakistani national, we simply can't find his identity papers"

 

Now we're talking about HYPOCRISY
@Just so you know, people here don't stop me at the airport for *random* security checks. So I don't know who u're calling terrorist.

Back to topic now.

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## Aslan

Vande Mataram said:


> Actually, yes he is.
> If they catch him alive, they won't kill him. They'll need to take him to court.
> 
> @Thank you agreeing that the Turkish PM is nuts. Apparently the Pakistanis here feel that they love him more than you guys do back in Turkey =)
> 
> 
> 
> Mr.Genius,
> you obviously don't understand English.
> *INNOCENT* until proven GUILTY.
> What YOU'RE doing is accusing Israel of being guilty, and calling them terrorists.
> 
> *DEFENDING* Israel isn't the same thing as ACCUSING it of something.
> 
> Don't just throw words at me. Know their meanings first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahhahaha, really?
> Since you bring that "all INDIANS are hated by Muslims in South Asia"
> 
> So the 150 Million Muslims in my country hate themselves too?
> And they LOVE Pakistan don't they.
> 
> Also, just so you know. Your government would be considered a terrorist also, for supporting the actions of terrorists in India. Where 300 people (more than this 10 died)
> 
> *cough* remember 1 month after the Mumbai,
> Zardari: "They were non state actors"
> 
> 2 months later
> Zardari: "Kasab is a Pakistani national, we simply can't find his identity papers"
> 
> 
> 
> Now we're talking about HYPOCRISY
> @Just so you know, people here don't stop me at the airport for *random* security checks. So I don't know who u're calling terrorist.
> 
> Back to topic now.




Can you not stop trolling, for once.


----------



## Marxist

*Israel attacked ships "without warning", freed activists say* 

AMMAN, June 2 (Reuters) - Israeli naval commandos used batons, tear gas, stun grenades, rubber-coated bullets and live ammunition during the storming of aid ships bound for Gaza, activists deported by Israel to Jordan said on Wednesday.

"The Israelis just attacked us without warning after dawn prayer," said Norazma Abdullah, a Malaysian who was among 124 activists who crossed into Jordan at about 7.30 a.m. (0430 GMT).

"They fired with some rubber bullets but after some time they used live ammunition. Five were dead on the spot and after that we surrendered," said Abdullah, who was on the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara where most of the violence took place.

Abdullah, speaking to Reuters near a Jordan river bridge, said the Israeli commandos had then kept the activists tied up for 15 hours until they reached the Israeli port of Ashdod.

Nine people were killed during Monday's raid on a six-ship convoy trying to deliver humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million Palestinians are under an Israeli blockade.

Israel says activists attacked its commandos as they came aboard the Turkish vessel, forcing them to shoot in self-defence after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Abdullah said the Turkish-backed flotilla had been more than 68 miles off the Gaza coast when it was intercepted.

"Our original plan was to stop there and ask for Israeli permission before we entered and, if they refused, to stay at sea in protest ... but they attacked us before we had a chance to do that," Abdullah added.

The activists expelled to Jordan included nationals from Kuwait, Algeria, Lebanon, Malaysia and Indonesia. They were among 682 detained during the Israeli operation.

Abdul Rahman Failakawee, a Kuwaiti, said the Israelis had used an array of weaponry to subdue those on board the convoy.

"The attack was totally barbaric," he said by telephone from a bus taking the freed activists to Amman. "They used legitimate and maybe illegitimate weapons: rubber bullets, live ammunition, sound bombs and tear gas bombs. They also used batons as they landed to beat those on board to control the ship."

Archbishop Hilarian Capucci, a Greek Catholic prelate from Jerusalem who was imprisoned by Israel in 1974 and later deported, said the maritime attack was unwarranted.

"Our trip to Gaza was a trip of love and God was with us. Israel by its actions had rightly drawn world outrage over its brutality against unarmed people carrying a message of love to an innocent occupied people under seige," Capucci said.

Reuters AlertNet - Israel attacked ships "without warning", freed activists say


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## Ahmad

Vande Mataram said:


> Mr.Genius,
> you obviously don't understand English. (oh, sorry I forgot it's not your first language, old joke )
> *INNOCENT* until proven GUILTY.
> What YOU'RE doing is accusing Israel of being guilty, and calling them terrorists.



good logic and i need to put back the same thing to you. the same thing can be said about hamas.


----------



## SpArK

*More aid ships headed to Gaza*







Detained activists from the Gaza-bound flotilla flash victory signs as their bus arrives at Ben Gurion airport near Tel Aviv on Wednesday. The Free Gaza Movement said more ships are headed to the region, as Israel quickened its expulsion of detained activists. 

*The Free Gaza Movement was on Wednesday preparing to send more aid ships to Gaza*, amid claims that Israel may have sabotaged the aid flotilla, one of the founders of the pro-Palestinian movement told DPA.

The Irish cargo-ship MV Rachel Corrie could reach Gaza within two weeks, said Greta Berlin. Among the activists on board was Irish Nobel Peace laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire Helen as well as former UB assistant secretary general Dennis Halliday.

Ms. Berlin refused to give the exact position of the vessel as she said the movement suspected Israel had been trying to sabotage the aid flotilla bound for Gaza.

The MS Rachel Corrie had been set to join the convoy headed by the Turkish Marvi Marmara but had suffered sudden damage, forcing it to interrupt its voyage at Cyprus. Another two vessels, the Challenger I and Challenger II had also malfunctioned suddenly, Ms. Berlin said.

Inspections of the ships had shown that the electric wires may have been tampered with, Ms. Berlin said, adding they were still awaiting the results of a full investigation.

The rest of the convoy headed by the Marvi Marmara was on Monday forcefully intercepted by Israel. Nine activists were killed when Israeli soldiers stormed the boats, prompting a wave of international outrage against Israels operation.

Four of the dead have so far been identified as Turks, Turkish officials said on Wednesday.

Ms. Berlins remarks followed comments by Israeli Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai on Israel Radio, clearly hinting Israel took covert action to sabotage the convoy.

Asked whether there had been alternatives to an assault, Mr. Vilnai said, All possibilities had been considered, adding the fact is that there were fewer than the 10 ships that were supposed to participate in the flotilla.

The Irish cargo ship is loaded with 1,200 tonnes of aid earmarked for Gaza, including 560 tonnes of cement, 100 tonnes of medical equipment among them CAT scanners, a dental office and 200 electric and regular wheelchairs, as well as papers, sports gear and crayons for children.

Were determined to continue with sending boats to Gaza, Ms. Berlin said.

She rejected Israels charges that the activists on board the Mavi Marmara had initiated the violence by attacking the Israeli commandos landing on deck from helicopters with iron rods, chairs and knives.

The Israelis had started to shoot into the crowd for no justifiable reasons, she said.

And for anyone to be so awful as to says that some sticks are a match for machine guns, stun guns, teargas cannisters and a heavily armed Israeli militia thats boarding our ships in international waters has a serious issue with who is the real terrorist, she said.

Israel on Wednesday released 449 of the some 600 foreign activists who had been on board the Gaza aid flotilla and were subsequently detained by Israel in a prison in the south of the country, a spokeswoman for Israel Prison Service told DPA.

They included 123 nationals from Arab states, among them Jordanians and Kuwaitis, who were taken on busses to Israels Allenby border crossing over the River Jordan with Israels eastern neighbour over night.

The rest were taken to Israels Ben Gurion International Airport near Tel Aviv for deportation abroad, most of them Turks.

Israel also said it dispatched 10 truckloads of the aid on board the flotilla to the Kerem Shalom crossing point for transportation into Gaza over land, including medical equipment, wheel chairs, and some food, Major Guy Inbar told DPA. 



The Hindu : News / International : More aid ships headed to Gaza

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## JonAsad

BENNY said:


> LOL .. dont go off topic now



i asked them to defend israel now..
what do you find off topic in it?

off topic will be if i say defend Pakistan now? isnt it?


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## SpArK

jonasad said:


> i asked them to defend israel now..
> what do you find off topic in it?
> 
> off topic will be if i say defend Pakistan now? isnt it?



Okay.. MR. *Instructor* i will convey the message to *them*.


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## JonAsad

BENNY said:


> Okay.. MR. *Instructor* i will convey the message to *them*.



Thank You.. i appreciate it


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## Xeric

BENNY said:


> Under fire for attacking aid flotilla, Israel drags India, Pak into row
> 
> Under fire for attacking aid flotilla, Israel drags India, Pak into row - Middle East - World - The Times of India



Tsk tsk.. this is how israel repay the indian cyber-warriors.


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## EjazR

*Indian-origin aid worker on ship attacked by Israel - Indians Abroad - World - The Times of India*

LONDON: An Indian-origin British aid worker is on the ship that was part of the Gaza-bound flotilla attacked by Israel. His family, anxiously waiting for news about his whereabouts, says it was as though their worst nightmares were coming true.

Hours before the troops moved in on Monday, Ismail Adam Patel, an optician based in the Oadby area of Leicester, posted a video on YouTube describing how they were surrounded by Israeli navy forces.

He can be seen standing on deck with a lifejacket and saying: "At the moment, we can see three frigates and a helicopter is hovering overhead, despite the fact we are in international waters, some 100 miles from the shores of Israel. We call upon everybody in Britain to help us to raise the alarm and get our government to intervene."

Patel is one of 28 British citizens who boarded the flotilla in Cyprus Sunday. It was carrying humanitarian supplies to the Gaza strip.

He is also the chairman of pro-Palestinian organisation Friends of Al Aqsa, based in Leicester.

Patel's brother Shockat told the Leicester Mercury newspaper: "When we heard what had happened it was as though our worst nightmares were coming true.

"Before he left we hoped everything would go smoothly but there was always a risk it could go wrong."

Suleman Nagdi, spokesman for Leicestershire Federation of Muslim Organisations, said: "We are trying to do everything practically possible to help the family. My fear is those who are injured will be taken into custody. No contact has been made with Ismail since midnight last night, and watching the scenes on TV of the barbaric actions of the Israeli army only intensifies the concern for his welfare felt by his family."

Edward Garnier, MP from Harborough adjoining Leicester, added: "I have spoken to two foreign office ministers and have passed on his details. I know they are actively checking to see if he is hurt or not. I spoke to him before his trip and he sent me messages up until he got on the flotilla."

In London, pro-Palestinian campaigners staged a blockade near Whitehall shouting "Stop Israel's War Crimes in Gaza" and spoke of their fears about the fate of British citizens and others aboard the flotilla.

Hundreds of activists blocked Whitehall shouting "Free Palestine" and carried flags and banners with slogans such as "Stop Israel's War Crimes in Gaza" and "End the Criminal Siege of Gaza".

The convoy of six ships had about 600 volunteers on board and the activists were trying to defy a blockade imposed by Israel after Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007.


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## SpArK

xeric said:


> Tsk tsk.. this is how israel repay the indian cyber-warriors.



Tsk..Tsk.. thanks for noticing..they promised me 2 shakel(Israeli currency) for this reply.. waiting for the next cheque.

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## Xeric

BENNY said:


> Tsk..Tsk.. thanks for noticing..they promised me 2 shakel(Israeli currency) for this reply.. waiting for the next cheque.



i dont doubt that.


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## SpArK

xeric said:


> i dont doubt that.


----------



## Aslan

Police drag a protestor during a pro-Palestine demonstration outside the Israeli embassy in Athens. Photo: AFP





An Israeli soldier takes position with his finger on the trigger during a demonstration by Palestinian protesters and foreign peace activists at the Qalandia checkpoint near the West Bank city of Ramallah. Photo: AFP


A woman is hit by a fragment of a tear gas shot by French anti-riot policemen near the Israeli embassy in Paris. Photo: AFP





A pro-Palestinian demonstrator wears a Free Palestine badge during a protest march to the Israeli embassy in London. Photo: Reuters





Egyptian police stand guard during demostration by members of the Muslim Brotherhood in front of Al-Fath Mosque in Cairo to protest over the Israeli navy operation. Photo: Reuters



Pro-Palestinian protestors run through tear gas during a demonstration outside theIsraeli embassy in Athens. Photo: AFP


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## Aslan

Protestors demonstrate outside the Israeli Embassy in London. Photo: AFP





A young boy protests outside Downing St, London. Photo: AFP


A pro-Palestinian protestor stands amidst tear gas during a demonstration outside the Israeli embassy in Athens. Photo: AFP


Police spray tear gas towards protestors during a pro-Palestine demonstration outside the Israeli embassy in Athens. Photo: AFP


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## Dr.Evil

Ahmad said:


> i have got a question for you, please take your time and answer me. what is the solution to the plight and suffering of palestinians then? do you ever recognnize their plight in the first place or not? and if you dod then what is the solution for it. how can you solve the issue of palestine and israel in general? what is your proposals to this matter?



I only solution would be having 2 independent Countries ( Palaestine & Israel) and *not threatning a country's right to Exist.*

The right to exist for Israel is the most important requirement, When nutcases are threatning to wipe themout.

Voilence will not mitigate the suffering of Gazans, they need to come to the talks and kick out all the voilent institutions - Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists.

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## xenia

for all those, raniting about sea laws..tell me..when lucitania was sunk during WW1, america entered the war that its civilians were killed..right??it was not even an american ship..
back in 1882, when britain pressed some US soldiers n civilians into service on their ships. america fought a war with britain..
it was legitimate then to fight wars n now a ship carrying humanitarian aid still in *international waters* should be attacked..this is justified!!
sea laws were same then n now!
y u guys harbour double satndards..in fact we r sick of ur lame excuses!


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## Dr.Evil

Jana said:


> Please report all those trolls who are trying to derail the thread because they dont have guts to condemn terrorist state of Israel but they also dont have the moral ground to even let the civilized world condemn this terrorism.



*A member is a troll if he does not accept your version.*

Nice logic

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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> Isn't that same word " Drama " used by Pakistani members when Indians died in Mumbai Attacks.
> 
> I think this whole thing is being orchestrated by Turkish Prime Minister.



Look i have a question for you: Lets discuse it like adults, what do you think what is the way out for this problem? it has been like this for years. what is your proposal on personal basis? do you ever recognize the plight of palestinians or not? and what can you say about other incidents that the israelis killed those activists in palestine i believe one of them was buldozered because she was protesting the demolishan of palestinian homes in palestine, i know you love israel and i as muslim will probably naturally side with palestine, if we put those affiliations aside what constructive proposal you can give to end this bloody conflict to an end?


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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> I only solution would be having 2 independent Countries ( Palaestine & Israel) and *not threatning a country's right to Exist.*
> 
> The right to exist for Israel is the most important requirement, When nutcases are threatning to wipe themout.
> 
> Voilence will not mitigate the suffering of Gazans, they need to come to the talks and kick out all the voilent institutions - Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists.



Yes, you are right, violence is not good and the only people who suffer will be palestinians not israelis, even if if israelis suffer, the scale of suffer will be one in a thousand. OK, i agree with you on 2 state solution, *but is israel ready to do that?*


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## Dr.Evil

Ahmad said:


> Look i have a question for you: Lets discuse it like adults, what do you think what is the way out for this problem? it has been like this for years. what is your proposal on personal basis? do you ever recognize the plight of palestinians or not? and what can you say about other incidents that the israelis killed those activists in palestine i believe one of them was buldozered because she was protesting the demolishan of palestinian homes in palestine, i know you love israel and i as muslim will probably naturally side with palestine, if we put those affiliations aside what constructive proposal you can give to end this bloody conflict to an end?



There has to be palestenian state and I am very much for a separate state of palestine.

In the same tone I also have to point out Isreal's right to exist and all the muslims countries surrounding it have to accept it.

Voilence against Isreal by terrorist organisations like Hamas / Hezbollah is not acceptable.

There are too many factions in palestine and their demands quite different from each, let them have a unified approach and unified set of demands, then talks can be held with israel.


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## khanz

my god i have never seen such spin put on anything it was an AID ship on a RELIEF mission who attacks that kind of target ! you indians are really bending over backwards to justify this whole world has condemned this.So if it was an indian aid ship i guess you'd think it was acceptable then.

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## Jigs

khalidali said:


> Protestors demonstrate outside the Israeli Embassy in London. Photo: AFP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A young boy protests outside Downing St, London. Photo: AFP
> 
> 
> A pro-Palestinian protestor stands amidst tear gas during a demonstration outside the Israeli embassy in Athens. Photo: AFP
> 
> 
> Police spray tear gas towards protestors during a pro-Palestine demonstration outside the Israeli embassy in Athens. Photo: AFP



Haha nice. That protester has a Russian GP-5 gas mask no gas issues for him


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## Spring Onion

khanz said:


> my god i have never seen such spin put on anything it was an AID ship on a RELIEF mission who attacks that kind of target ! you indians are really bending over backwards to justify this whole world has condemned this.So if it was an indian aid ship i guess you'd think it was acceptable then.



Terrorists wont get away with such acts for long.


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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> There has to be palestenian state and I am very much for a separate state of palestine.
> 
> In the same tone I also have to point out Isreal's right to exist and all the muslims countries surrounding it have to accept it.
> 
> Voilence against Isreal by terrorist organisations like Hamas / Hezbollah is not acceptable.
> 
> There are too many factions in palestine and their demands quite different from each, let them have a unified approach and unified set of demands, then talks can be held with israel.



I appreciate that you support a palestine state, but where do they have to establish that country? shall they establish it in india somwhere? the israelis are constantly building illegal settlements on palestine land, according to the EU and UN and even the US these settlements are not only illegal but a very big obstacle to ME peace. right now it is not israel's existence under the threat, but it is the palestinians existence which is being under threat. yes palesinians do have differnet parties and diffent opinion, but the same thing is said to be about israel, the faction of Liberman and Netanyahoo dont believe in a palestine state and they only want to have an econmic entity for the palestinans with no gov and no state, so that they can keep on stealing their land and build illegal settlemetns, and on the other side Kadema and Labour accept the estate of palestine but in practice they have never shown any willingness for a 2 state solution. on the other hand Fatah recognizes israel while hamas ddint, but now they have indicated to recognize israel as long as the borders go back to 1967 time. do you also know how everyday the houses of palestinains in the west bank get demolished or taken from and given it to the extremist settlers? the restriction of movements in the west bank is so severe and bad that even Tony Blair described as very harsh. you constantly call on terrorism from hamas, but fail to say a word about illegal extremist settlers' violence against the defenceless palestinains, you fail to say a word about about israeli forces brutal actions.

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## blain2

Dr.Evil said:


> There has to be palestenian state and I am very much for a separate state of palestine.
> 
> In the same tone I also have to point out Isreal's right to exist and all the muslims countries surrounding it have to accept it.
> 
> Voilence against Isreal by terrorist organisations like Hamas / Hezbollah is not acceptable.
> 
> There are too many factions in palestine and their demands quite different from each, let them have a unified approach and unified set of demands, then talks can be held with israel.




Nobody is demanding any differently. The diplomacy and stances of the sides are nuanced. Yet there is only one proposal on the table and that is to go back to pre-67 borders. That is what all of the groups in Palestine want. This ensures a viable Independent Israeli state and also a Palestinian nation. However when short term greed and need to expand is on the minds of the Israeli government, long term peace takes a back seat.

Violence and repression begets violence. If there is no occupation, there won't be any violence. It was not the Palestinians who came over and occupied Israeli lands. They were pushed out of these lands by the Israelis and the Israelis continue to build settlements all over Palestinian lands to this day.

Today on BBC again, they had the head of UNHCR on the talk show. He said basic things such as Chocolate, meat, & even biscuits are disallowed at times. He said Israelis put up all sorts of bureaucratic hurdles and some times its political excuses to stop things from going in.

When the Israelis let some tonnage in, which they tout as an achievement, they are not doing any favours to anyone. There should be unconditional opening. You want to check for arms on the high seas, do it like the ISAF and us (Pakistan), among others in CTF-150, have been doing by boarding ships to check for AQ types and weapons. After the boarding, ships are allowed on.

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## Dr.Evil

Ahmad said:


> I appreciate that you support a palestine state, but where do they have to establish that country? shall they establish it in india somwhere? the israelis are constantly building illegal settlements on palestine land, according to the EU and UN and even the US these settlements are not only illegal but a very big obstacle to ME peace. right now it is not israel's existence under the threat, but it is the palestinians existence which is being under threat. yes palesinians do have differnet parties and diffent opinion, but the same thing is said to be about israel, the faction of Liberman and Netanyahoo dont believe in a palestine state and they only want to have an econmic entity for the palestinans with no gov and no state, so that they can keep on stealing their land and build illegal settlemetns, and on the other side Kadema and Labour accept the estate of palestine but in practice they have never shown any willingness for a 2 state solution. on the other hand Fatah recognizes israel while hamas ddint, but now they have indicated to recognize israel as long as the borders go back to 1967 time. do you also know how everyday the houses of palestinains in the west bank get demolished or taken from and given it to the extremist settlers? the restriction of movements in the west bank is so severe and bad that even Tony Blair described as very harsh. you constantly call on terrorism from hamas, but fail to say a word about illegal extremist settlers' violence against the defenceless palestinains, you fail to say a word about about israeli forces brutal actions.



Isreal as a principle accepts that there has to be a palestenian state and the contours of that state has to be defined wheather is on the basis on 1967 borders or the present borders.

Going back to 1967 borders is not practical for many reasons, they have to strike a balance between present border and 1967 border.

When terrorists from Gaza and West back launch missiles in isreali terrorists, Isreal goes and demolishes the places used to fire the missiles, though it is a bit heavy handed, it is also the responsibility of the people in Gaza not to allow their property to be used for firing the missiles.

Voilence against the State and Citizens of Isreal is not an option as that will cause more misery to Palestenians.

If it weren't for Isreal severe punishment to the terrorists, those terrorists would have dismembered Isreal long time back.

Isreal is surrounded by not exactly peace loving countires.


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## blain2

Marxist said:


> *Weapons found on Mavi Marmara*
> 
> someone has uploaded it on flicker,
> 
> Weapons found on Mavi Marmara - a set on Flickr



What a joke! I keep axes and hoes and knives in my backyard for common work around the house. 

Not one Israeli soldier has been hacked by the axes or stabbed. Lame PR exercise. Trying to defend the indefensible!!!

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## Ahmad

Dr.Evil said:


> .





> Going back to 1967 borders is not practical for many reasons, they have to strike a balance between present border and 1967 border.



why not? it was taken forcefully and against the internatinal law and it should be given back to them, do you ever recognize the UN and its mandate?



> Isreal as a principle accepts that there has to be a palestenian state and the contours of that state has to be defined wheather is on the basis on 1967 borders or the present borders.



You need to complete your information, present israeli gov doesnt accept it as a nation and an idpedent country.



> When terrorists from Gaza and West back launch missiles in isreali terrorists, Isreal goes and demolishes the places used to fire the missiles, though it is a bit heavy handed, it is also the responsibility of the people in Gaza not to allow their property to be used for firing the missiles.



even if i go according to this theory of yours although it is totally worng, then what can you say about the construction of jewish settlements?



> Isreal is surrounded by not exactly peace loving countires



israel itself is responsible for it. have you ever wondered why turkey's relationship is at all time low with israel, despite the fact that they have been long term partners? not all those countries can be worg and just ONE ISRAEL right. and dont tell me israel is a peace long country.

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## blain2

Dr.Evil said:


> Isreal as a principle accepts that there has to be a palestenian state and the contours of that state has to be defined wheather is on the basis on 1967 borders or the present borders.



Accepting as a principle and putting it into action are two different things. Implementation of the principle is what is at stake here.



> Going back to 1967 borders is not practical for many reasons, they have to strike a balance between present border and 1967 border.



So all the practicality is expected from the Palestinians who are already eating ****? All the Israelis have to to do is take a stand and tell the settlers, no more settlements and expansion and vacate some of the other areas which UN has accepted as Palestinian majority areas. This is what it will take to attain peace. If not then Palestinians will continue to die along with Israelis. 



> When terrorists from Gaza and West back launch missiles in isreali terrorists, Isreal goes and demolishes the places used to fire the missiles, though it is a bit heavy handed, it is also the responsibility of the people in Gaza not to allow their property to be used for firing the missiles.



So why are the Palestinians launching missiles in the first place? Ever bother to think about that? If Pakistan kept on encroaching on the Indian side of the IB, what would be the Indian response? Yes it will be round the clock lobbing of arty shells over to our side. Its quite a simple situation to understand only if you start thinking about the Palestinian lands as an Independent entity which is not under the control of the Israelis and thus retaining the right to defend their territory from encroachment.



> Voilence against the State and Citizens of Isreal is not an option as that will cause more misery to Palestenians.



But violence against 1.5 million Palestinians gets a shameless pat in the back from you, right? Who has been occupied and for how long? Think through these things instead of putting up Newsweek and Time content as arguments here. 



> If it weren't for Isreal severe punishment to the terrorists, those terrorists would have dismembered Isreal long time back.



Nice joke! The militancy in Palestine (I do not consider them terrorists) is a direct result of overwhelming use of military power by the Israelis. This is asymmetric warfare in its most classic sense. The weaker side in no way has the capacity to dismember Israel. Specially with US providing security guarantees to Israel. So lets not try to slide in a cheesy little Israeli PR line here about the groups being a threat to Israel's existence. They are not! Nobody is saying this. Israel is an established country. This is no longer about their right to exist, and its all about their need to exert their influence and play king makers in the region. Israel's security is hurt by this stance more than anything else. The Israeli government's policies are the greatest threat to Israel's existence. Katyusha rockets in the thousands cannot do as much damage to Israel as does this policy of the Israeli government.




> Isreal is surrounded by not exactly peace loving countires.



Really? Who has fought more wars and attacked independent countries unilaterally in the last 30 years in the region? Its only one country and its Israel. Israel has attacked Iraq illegally, it has done the same against Syria. It has punished innocent public in the war against Lebanon and it has done the same to the Palestinian people.

The only erosion of peace has come from Israel. None of the surrounding countries have directly waged war against Israel. This self-victimization has diminishing returns. In the past the Israelis have used this tactic to garner sympathy, however there is a realization even in the Western countries and even in the minds of some in the USG that this continued self-victimization and strong armed tactics of the Israelis are not only harming Isreal, but it is increasingly hurting the interests of the United States and its Western partners.


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## rameez ahmed

USA IS the biggest terrorist state in this world... Pakistan should finish its ties from it... Believe me Its only because of US we are facing terrorism today in our country.. they have the Plan to dismantle Pakistan nuclear weapons by claiming that Pakistan is not capable of fighting terrorism.. 

Believe me they will say that.. And it will occur in a very near future because the conditions of Pakistan are going in such direction.. We know what going in Baluchistan and Khyber Pakhtoon khwan... Now they have started Talibanization in Punjab as well ....

Pakistan Civilians and Government should really wake up now.. America is not our friend.. they are our enemy.. they will discard us when their needs are fulfilled.. we have seen this in history...


Pakistan please wake up..


----------



## blain2

khanz said:


> my god i have never seen such spin put on anything it was an AID ship on a RELIEF mission who attacks that kind of target ! you indians are really bending over backwards to justify this whole world has condemned this.So if it was an indian aid ship i guess you'd think it was acceptable then.



Its quite comical to see the Indians (or whosoever they are) trying to chummy up to Israel by supporting an act that even the Israeli citizens are increasingly questioning.

The facts, or some of them, are as follows:

i) The ship is a registered Turkish ship. Israel has no right under the International law to board this ship for as long as it is not in Israeli territorial waters.

ii) The ones on the boat have all the right to defend themselves from illegal boarding of their ship because under any UN or maritime law, if the boarding party does not have the legal cover for such boarding, it is an act of piracy or kidnapping.

iii) Isreali Navy intercepted the ship in International waters where they have no right to do so.

iv) Israel has no legal right to blockade Gaza. There is no UN sanction for this.


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## mjnaushad

Ganga said:


> The so called "peace" activists are responsible for the deaths of their fellow activists.They tried to show how strong they are and ended up losing 10 of their freinds.Isreal for sure didn't expect things to turn out this way.It never thought that "Peace" workers would becaome violent.


I wish you had a little information about international law. Israel attacked in international waters. Those peace activist are not responsible for 20 killings. They were attack by a terrorist state Israel soldiers and were killed brutally. Israel had no right to attack that ship. It was not in Israeli waters. If any terrorist will attack me i will surely retaliate. TSI attacked and got retaliation from unarmed aid workers. They could have used tear gas or flash bangs but they used live ammo.

But i know its your duty to defend "daddy Israel"


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## Brotherhood

Abbas: Israel attacks flotilla to deter the world from breaking Gaza blockade - People's Daily Online


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## mjnaushad

under cover said:


> Why the condemnation for?? Allegation for soar Intelligence can be accepted. But the intent was to defend the sovereigneity of nation. So regrets on the loss of innocent lives but no regrets on the motive. Calling self-defence as terrorism is very lame. Israelis do not desire for 72 virgins for getting laid in heaven, for killing non-believers. All that they want is their country should be safe from overt / covert hostility. In essense self-defence cannot be equated with terrorism.
> 
> Criticism for showing solidarity with Arab world is altogether different thing. We need not show solidarity to appease our local population, unlike our neighbours. So we wont criticize Israel just for the sake of criticizing it.
> 
> Their (failed) intelligence of ship in disguise of humanitarian mission can be only questioned and/or condemned, but not their intent.


Wow Israel defending its nation by stoping aid to women and children of Gaza and killing unarmed aid workers....

Really noting wrong. 







Is it me or some people here really sold humanity for sake of few weapons system.


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## Ahmad

blain2 said:


> Its quite comical to see the Indians (or whosoever they are) trying to chummy up to Israel by supporting an act that even the Israeli citizens are increasingly questioning.



i was under the same impresion, but reading more posts it became clear to me that only 2-3 indian members are unconditionally supporrting the terrorist acts, but majority of Indian members have had a balanced approach.


----------



## Vande Mataram

Ahmad said:


> good logic and i need to put back the same thing to you. the same thing can be said about hamas.



No, actually the Hamas are not related to this incident.
Israel is.

And people here are saying Israel is guilty of attacking the civilians.

Hamas is irrelevent.
If you're talking about Hamas shelling rockets in to Israel. There is solid proof about that. So no, your argument doens't go there.


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## Ahmad

Vande Mataram said:


> No, actually the Hamas are not related to this incident.
> Israel is.
> 
> And people here are saying Israel is guilty of attacking the civilians.
> 
> Hamas is irrelevent.
> If you're talking about Hamas shelling rockets in to Israel. There is solid proof about that. So no, your argument doens't go there.



ok, forget about hamas, what can you say about other peace activists who have been killed by the israelis in palesstine? you should know that those activits are not muslims either. as i said before, it is not the first time or first incident, it has always been like that and peopole like you come forward with thousands of silly reasons to denfed this inhuman act.


----------



## Prometheus

*Gaza flotilla attack: Israeli ambassador compares raid to Second World War*

Israel's ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, has compared the Gaza flotilla attack with America's fight against Nazi Germany in the Second World War.
In an interview with Fox News, he described the operation, in which nine people died, as "perfectly legal, perfectly humane  and very responsible".
He defending the attack in open waters, saying: "Israel acted in accord with international law. Any state has the right to protect itself, certainly from a terrorist threat such as Hamas, including on the open seas."The US acted under similar international law when it fought the Germans and the Japanese in World War Two."
His comments came as Israel began deporting hundreds of activists seized from the flotilla, including more than 120 activists from Muslim countries who were taken to the border with Jordan early this morning.
There is no immediate word on the fate of 42 British nationals who were on the convoy of ships.
US President Barack Obama has spoken to Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prime minister of Turkey, which had branded the attack a "bloody massacre", the White House said.
The President expressed "deep condolences" over the deaths on board a Turkish flagged ship that was part of the flotilla and said Washington was working with Israel on the release of impounded vessels and passengers.
In his television interview, Mr Oren said Israel "has to make some hard choices sometimes," adding: "We live in a rough neighbourhood."
One of the 42 British nationals on the flotilla was deported immediately but the remainder were being seen by British consulate staff.
The man deported, Hasan Nowarah, from Glasgow, flew home on Tuesday evening.
"All I could hear was screaming and bullets all over the place, over the Marmara, the Turkish ship," he told Sky News.
"All you could see was screaming and bullets. Out of the blue as I looked around our ship, all I could see were hundreds of Zodiacs.
"Hundreds of Zodiacs full of soldiers, and big ships, lots of ships, and I believe as well submarines in the sea."
Some of the Britons had been travelling without passports, and others had destroyed their papers, diplomats were told. There may be more British citizens among the many detainees who initially refused to identify themselves.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, who is under intense pressure over the bungled raid both from countries around the world and at home, remained defiant last night. He told a meeting of Israel's inner cabinet that he would not bow to pressure to lift the blockade on Gaza, which the activists were trying to break.Gaza flotilla attack: Israeli ambassador compares raid to Second World War - Telegraph


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## T-Faz

Some Pakistani made this comment on another website, it warrants a ear.



> It is absolutely silly how there were mass protests across Pakistan with regards to the Israeli attacks on the aid convoy. While those attacks were totally unjustified I cannot for the life of me understand why people in Pakistan are worried about their Muslim brothers while their own house in on fire. When is the last time you heard of Arabs or Persians supporting causes in Pakistan. Kashmir is not even on their radar let alone the daily terrorist attacks against civilians and the state of Pakistan. Furthermore, I have to wonder which nation in the world can take a condemnation from the government of Pakistan on foriegn incidents seriously when Pakistans internal record it self is so tarnished.


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## Vande Mataram

Ahmad said:


> ok, forget about hamas, what can you say about other peace activists who have been killed by the israelis in palesstine? you should know that those activits are not muslims either. as i said before, it is not the first time or first incident, it has always been like that and peopole like you come forward with thousands of silly reasons to denfed this inhuman act.



Offtopic dude. This is specifically about THIS incident! I don't know/care about prevoius incidents.

So tell me. What solid PROOF is there to PROVE that Israel is guilty of killing innocent civilians without provokation (as the IDF is saying)


----------



## mjnaushad

Vande Mataram said:


> Offtopic dude. This is specifically about THIS incident! I don't know/care about prevoius incidents.
> 
> So tell me. What solid PROOF is there to PROVE that Israel is guilty of killing innocent civilians without provokation (as the IDF is saying)


How about if i stop all the supply to your home with a blockade and then say i wont fire a bullet until i got attacked by you. For how long you will see your family dying with hunger.


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## sanasahil

This is really sad and the real image of biased face of Israel and USA! they are really making un equal ways and even they want to capture the world.. every thing they do is legal..Its really a shameful act by the Israelis..
I am very sad to know that!


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## Ahmad

Vande Mataram said:


> Offtopic dude. This is specifically about THIS incident! I don't know/care about prevoius incidents.
> 
> So tell me. What solid PROOF is there to PROVE that Israel is guilty of killing innocent civilians without provokation (as the IDF is saying)



i dont know about any proof, it might be because the israelis took all the possessions and cameras from the passengers in the ship and all i know is that israelis unlawfully attacked an aid ship in international waters.


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## Prometheus

T-Faz said:


> Some Pakistani made this comment on another website, it warrants a ear.


He got a point...............whats there to laugh

Currently Pakistan should look into its internal affairs ............and progress ..............and day will come when world will take notice


----------



## blain2

Vande Mataram said:


> Offtopic dude. This is specifically about THIS incident! I don't know/care about prevoius incidents.
> 
> So tell me. What solid PROOF is there to PROVE that Israel is guilty of killing innocent civilians without provokation (as the IDF is saying)



The proof is that none of the Israelis is dead. Which means that the other side did not use deadly force. Yes banged up the Israeli commandos were, but none died or got gravely injured. The response was excessive.

For those Indians here acting more Catholic than the Pope, take a read from Haretz:



ANALYSIS / *Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus*
Israel played into Hamas' hands by storming the boats of the 'Freedom Flotilla.'
By Yossi Melman Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla

Despite having its eyes wide open, Israel fell into a trap. Israel knew that the organizers of the flotilla wanted to present the Israel Defense Forces to the world as an army that does not hesitate to use force. The flotilla organizers wanted deaths, casualties, blood and billows of smoke. And this is exactly what Israel gave them.

Every child knows that the conflict here is one of consciousness,images, emotion and gut-feelings; not one of justice or logic. Therefore, Israel should have acted differently.

Israel's decision-makers should have revived memories of Israel's own history. It shows just how short a historical memory the prime minister, defense minister, chief of staff, and Navy commander all have. *They don't remember the story of the Exodus ship in 1947.

The British Mandate authorities imposed a blockade on the shores ofthe land of Israel and Jewish leaders believed it was their right and their duty to break it. The Jewish immigrants on the Exodus decided to forcefully oppose every attempt to stop them. The Jewish leadership wanted to arouse the world's conscience and gain a victory in the
battle for international sympathy.*

In our day, Hamas leaders believe and act similarly. Without getting into the question of the justification or logic of the blockade imposed by Gaza and its residents, it was indeed clear that it was only natural that Hamas would try to break the blockade by force. They have been doing this by means of the smuggling tunnels and via the sea. It was clear that they saw it as their natural right to oppose attempts to stop the ships.

In 1988, when the PLO organized a ship named "The Return" to be sent to Israel with Palestinian refugees, Israel chose a different method to stop it. It sent Mossad agents and Naval commandos to Cyprus to sabotage the ship before the passengers had embarked. The ship was damaged but no one was hurt.

Israel should have considered a similar approach with the Gaza flotilla. But apparently the days in which Israeli agents could operate freely in friendly countries are gone.

*There was another possibility. During Ehud Olmert's term as prime minister, Israel permitted a lone aid ship, filled with supplies and activists, to enter Gaza. The skies did not fall on Israel in the wake of this.*

The Israeli government could have acted similarly this time. No disaster would have occurred. The boats would have landed, the supplies would have been unloaded and the activists would have disembarked.

So what? You may argue that this would have set a precedent. But I argue that if Hamas had tried to do the same thing again in the future, Israel would still have had the ability to
operate differently and outsmart Hamas.

*As a last resort, it would also have been possible to simply sabotage the motors of the boats, halting their voyage without having to seize control of the ships. Instead of this, the Israeli government preferred to take control of the ships by force.*

Apparently Israel, which prides itself as having the best intelligence in the world, should have known better that there were violent elements aboard one of the boats, equipped iron bars, knifes and slingshots. Had Israel known this, it would have probably used more appropriate ways to storm boat, to avoid death and injuries. And that did not happen.

Israel has played into Hamas' hands. It's not the fault of the young soldiers who obeyed the orders of their commanders. The responsibility lies with the cabinet and the military planners.

*No matter how one looks at the conduct of the Israeli government and the IDF, it is hard to understand how stupid and tragic it was. **Time and again, Israel tries to prove that what can't be solved by force can be solved by more force.* Over and over, the policies of force fail. *The problem is that with each failure, the part of the world in which we would like to belong is losing patience with us.*

ANALYSIS / Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

****

As I have said above to the Indian geniuses, any which way you look at this, it is a screw-up and an indefensible act.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

i heard that some of the heavily armed commandos got scared and jumped into sea when confronted by angry stick-wielding activists!

on video, there is a scene of one of the un-invited ''guests'' being man-handled and literally flicked off the boat like a spent cigarette


lolz


and these are supposed to be israeli elite commando force??


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## blain2

T-Faz said:


> Some Pakistani made this comment on another website, it warrants a ear.



It does but also overlooks the point that three Pakistani citizens were on the same ship. Pakistan's mess internally does not mean that on the diplomatic front Pakistan should take a back seat.


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## Frankenstein

lol, even some Israelis are against such acts, but Indians are down with that, when it comes to Israel they shut there eyes, how absurd


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## blain2

Prometheus said:


> He got a point...............whats there to laugh
> 
> Currently Pakistan should look into its internal affairs ............and progress ..............and day will come when world will take notice



If one sees a wrong, one should try to correct it with his hands. If not possible then one should try to speak out against it. And even if that becomes untenable, then one should condemn it in their hearts. I think Pakistanis at the least can condemn what they see as a wrong and we are not alone in this. The opinion around the world in markedly against Israel on this one.


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## Vande Mataram

blain2 said:


> The proof is that none of the Israelis is dead. Which means that the other side did not use deadly force. Yes banged up the Israeli commandos were, but none died or got gravely injured. The response was excessive.
> 
> For those Indians here acting more Catholic than the Pope, take a read from Haretz:
> 
> 
> 
> ANALYSIS / *Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus*
> Israel played into Hamas' hands by storming the boats of the 'Freedom Flotilla.'
> By Yossi Melman Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla
> 
> Despite having its eyes wide open, Israel fell into a trap. Israel knew that the organizers of the flotilla wanted to present the Israel Defense Forces to the world as an army that does not hesitate to use force. The flotilla organizers wanted deaths, casualties, blood and billows of smoke. And this is exactly what Israel gave them.
> 
> Every child knows that the conflict here is one of consciousness,images, emotion and gut-feelings; not one of justice or logic. Therefore, Israel should have acted differently.
> 
> Israel's decision-makers should have revived memories of Israel's own history. It shows just how short a historical memory the prime minister, defense minister, chief of staff, and Navy commander all have. *They don't remember the story of the Exodus ship in 1947.
> 
> The British Mandate authorities imposed a blockade on the shores ofthe land of Israel and Jewish leaders believed it was their right and their duty to break it. The Jewish immigrants on the Exodus decided to forcefully oppose every attempt to stop them. The Jewish leadership wanted to arouse the world's conscience and gain a victory in the
> battle for international sympathy.*
> 
> In our day, Hamas leaders believe and act similarly. Without getting into the question of the justification or logic of the blockade imposed by Gaza and its residents, it was indeed clear that it was only natural that Hamas would try to break the blockade by force. They have been doing this by means of the smuggling tunnels and via the sea. It was clear that they saw it as their natural right to oppose attempts to stop the ships.
> 
> In 1988, when the PLO organized a ship named "The Return" to be sent to Israel with Palestinian refugees, Israel chose a different method to stop it. It sent Mossad agents and Naval commandos to Cyprus to sabotage the ship before the passengers had embarked. The ship was damaged but no one was hurt.
> 
> Israel should have considered a similar approach with the Gaza flotilla. But apparently the days in which Israeli agents could operate freely in friendly countries are gone.
> 
> *There was another possibility. During Ehud Olmert's term as prime minister, Israel permitted a lone aid ship, filled with supplies and activists, to enter Gaza. The skies did not fall on Israel in the wake of this.*
> 
> The Israeli government could have acted similarly this time. No disaster would have occurred. The boats would have landed, the supplies would have been unloaded and the activists would have disembarked.
> 
> So what? You may argue that this would have set a precedent. But I argue that if Hamas had tried to do the same thing again in the future, Israel would still have had the ability to
> operate differently and outsmart Hamas.
> 
> *As a last resort, it would also have been possible to simply sabotage the motors of the boats, halting their voyage without having to seize control of the ships. Instead of this, the Israeli government preferred to take control of the ships by force.*
> 
> Apparently Israel, which prides itself as having the best intelligence in the world, should have known better that there were violent elements aboard one of the boats, equipped iron bars, knifes and slingshots. Had Israel known this, it would have probably used more appropriate ways to storm boat, to avoid death and injuries. And that did not happen.
> 
> Israel has played into Hamas' hands. It's not the fault of the young soldiers who obeyed the orders of their commanders. The responsibility lies with the cabinet and the military planners.
> 
> *No matter how one looks at the conduct of the Israeli government and the IDF, it is hard to understand how stupid and tragic it was. **Time and again, Israel tries to prove that what can't be solved by force can be solved by more force.* Over and over, the policies of force fail. *The problem is that with each failure, the part of the world in which we would like to belong is losing patience with us.*
> 
> ANALYSIS / Israel has forgotten the lessons of the Exodus - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
> 
> ****
> 
> As I have said above to the Indian geniuses, any which way you look at this, it is a screw-up and an indefensible act.



This is logic. Not fact.
Give me the situation that happened on the boat. Give me why the solders opened fire. Give me IF FOR SURE the civilians attacked first or not.

Why post other un needed things?



During an investigation, the officials won't care the scenario you put up. That 0 Commandos died.


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## blain2

Frankenstein said:


> lol, even some Israelis are against such acts, but Indians are down with that, when it comes to Israel they shut there eyes, how absurd



It matters little what Indians think in this context. The world opinion is markedly against the Israeli tactics. Attempts by some to defend the Israeli act by using lame excuses matters little but because these forums allow such dissent, I guess its fine.


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## T-Faz

*Barney Frank: 'As A Jew' I'm 'Ashamed' Over Treatment Of Palestinians*​
JERUSALEM -- Israel on Wednesday began deporting the bulk of nearly 700 international activists detained during its deadly raid on an aid flotilla bound for Palestinians in the blockaded, Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.

The raid that ended with Israeli soldiers killing nine activists has strained diplomatic ties, sending Israeli relations with Turkey, in particular, to a new low. At least four of the nine killed were Turkish and the ship Israel attacked was Turkish. Israel ordered families of its diplomats out of that country a day after Turkey branded the raid a "massacre."

Israel also faces significant new levels of criticism within in the United States. *In an interview with the Boston Herald, Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) said that that "'as a Jew,' Israeli treatment of Arabs around some of the West Bank settlements 'makes me ashamed that there would be Jews that would engage in that kind of victimization of a minority.'"* 



> Frank said, "Once you have a combat situation and innocent people die, I mean, you know, look at our problems in Afghanistan, and we have an obligation to try and avoid it." In defense of Israel, Frank added there are people *"howling for Israel to pay a price that don't seem disturbed that North Koreans killed 46 South Koreans by torpedoing a South Korean boat. I think we have a right to ask for some consistency."*



Egypt eased its blockade of Gaza after the raid and at the newly opened crossing in the border town of Rafah, about 300 Palestinians entered through Gaza's main gateway to the outside world. A smaller number entered Gaza from Egypt and humanitarian aid also came in including blankets, tents and 13 power generators donated by Russia and Oman.

Magdi al-Titer, a 31-year-old Palestinian among those crossing into Egypt, said he lost his right leg during Israel's brief war with Gaza that ended in January 2009.

*"I have come with a medical report to get fitted with an artificial leg in Egypt," he said.*

*Israel has come under harsh international condemnation after naval commandos stormed the flotilla in international waters on Monday, setting off the deadly clashes. Israel says its soldiers opened fire only after being attacked by angry activists, who said they were trying to breach the blockade of Gaza to bring in aid.*

Gaza has been under an Israeli and Egyptian blockade since 2007. Egypt's opening of the border was believed to be temporary, although the government did not say how long it would last.

A corrections official said Israel is aiming to deport all the foreign activists by the end of the day. *But there is a possibility some could be held in custody on suspicion of violence against Israeli troops.
*
Some 400 activists, most of them Turkish citizens, were bused to Israel's international airport for flights home by midday Wednesday.

Corrections department spokesman Yaron Zamir said the Turkish activists would board planes Turkey had sent to pick them up. Greece also had an aircraft on standby there to pick up its activists.

An additional 124 activists from a dozen Muslim nations without diplomatic relations with Israel were deported to Jordan before sunrise. About 100 foreigners remained in a prison in southern Israel by midday, Zamir said.

*Several of the activists deported to Jordan told The Associated Press that they were deprived of food, water, sleep and access to toilets in Israeli detention.*

*"The Israelis roughed up and humiliated all of us - women, men and children," said Kuwaiti lawmaker Walid al-Tabtabai, who was on board one of the ships with other activists from Muslim countries.*

*"They were brutal and arrogant, but our message reached every corner of the world that the blockade on Gaza is unfair and should be lifted immediately," he added. The lawmaker claimed there "was not a single weapon with the passengers aboard all the ships."*

Israel claimed some of the passengers attacked commandos with knives, iron rods, sticks and with two pistols wrested from soldiers.

Video released by the Israeli military showed commandos attacked by angry activists with metal rods and firebombs during the raid. One soldier was thrown off one deck onto another below, and Israeli authorities said its troops were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from the two pistols wrested from soldiers.

*Israeli defense officials have also said, without providing proof, that night vision goggles, gas masks, flak jackets and thousands of dollars were found on the ship, suggesting the possibility that some mercenaries were on board.*

Israeli media reported Wednesday that the foreign ministry ordered the families of its diplomats in Turkey to leave that country because of the uproar there over the raid. The diplomatic mission itself would remain in Turkey, said Israel Radio and other stations and newspapers. The ministry would neither confirm nor deny the reports.

*The fallout also expanded far from the region's borders. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said Nicaragua is suspending - though not severing - diplomatic ties with Israel over the raid.*

While many Israelis were critical of the way the raid was executed, the overwhelming reaction backed the soldiers' response and supported the Gaza blockade. Israelis have little empathy for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza because militants used the territory to send thousands of rockets and mortars crashing into Israel for years.

The flotilla was meant to draw attention to the Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza, imposed after Hamas militants violently seized power in June 2007. Israel says the blockade is needed to prevent Hamas, which has fired thousands of rockets into the Jewish state, from building up its arsenal. Critics say the closure has failed to hurt Hamas but has damaged Gaza's already weak economy.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton supported a U.N. Security Council statement that condemned the "acts" that cost the lives of the pro-Palestinian activists off the Gaza coast. But U.S. officials did not say whether they blamed Israel or the activists for the bloodshed.

Israel has promised to halt a new attempt by pro-Palestinian groups to sail two more ships to Gaza's shores within the next few days.

*Despite the widespread outcry over the violent sea raid, the Palestinians were resuming indirect peace talks with Israel later Wednesday, through U.S. envoy George Mitchell. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was to meet Mitchell at his headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah.*


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## blain2

Vande Mataram said:


> This is logic. Not fact.
> Give me the situation that happened on the boat. Give me why the solders opened fire. Give me IF FOR SURE the civilians attacked first or not.
> 
> Why post other un needed things?
> 
> 
> 
> During an investigation, the officials won't care the scenario you put up. That 0 Commandos died.



Why don't you dig it up yourself since you are such a stickler for truth (nothing that comes across to you will convince you since you are pre-disposed to looking over what the world is saying and seeing).

I certainly could care less what the Israeli officials would care about since its not about that. Your logic is devoid of the basics of the law. If the Israelis board a ship illegally, the crew and passengers have the right to stop them. This is the same right that is exercised by the International community in the International waters off Somalia's coast. 
If the Israel's elite commandos did not want their ***** beaten with rods and thrown overboard, they should have stayed off the boat since they had no legal right to get on it. This is the basic fact and one you and your buddies keep on ignoring, instead putting up silly arguments about "show me proof the civilians attacked the pirates in uniform". 

This is my view and I am sticking by it. You are free to do the same.


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## Vande Mataram

blain2 said:


> Why don't you dig it up yourself since you are such a stickler truth.



There was none 
The only truth i found was the video from the IDF commandos.

I trust the solid proof more than what the idiots on board had to say.



> I certainly could care less what the Israeli officials would care about since its not about that.



Not Israeli officials. The Investigation that's going on by EU.


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## Vande Mataram

T-Faz said:


> "They were brutal and arrogant, but our message reached every corner of the world that the blockade on Gaza is unfair and should be lifted immediately," he added. The lawmaker *claimed* there "was not a single weapon with the passengers aboard all the ships."





> Israel *claimed* some of the passengers attacked commandos with knives, iron rods, sticks and with two pistols wrested from soldiers.





> Video released by the Israeli military showed commandos attacked by angry activists with metal rods and firebombs during the raid. One soldier was thrown off one deck onto another below, and Israeli authorities said its troops were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from the two pistols wrested from soldiers.



Then that doesn't make sense to these people?



> Israeli defense officials have also said, without *providing proof*, that night vision goggles, gas masks, flak jackets and thousands of dollars were found on the ship, suggesting the possibility that some mercenaries were on board.[/B]



Are these guys idiots, read the previous sentence. Your proof IS that video.
Also, what proof do you have that these people were attacked first without provokation and there were no weapons on the ship?
Ship's still in the hands of IDF.


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## Frankenstein

Vande Mataram said:


> This is logic. Not fact.
> Give me the situation that happened on the boat. Give me why the solders opened fire. Give me IF FOR SURE the civilians attacked first or not.
> 
> Why post other un needed things?
> 
> 
> 
> During an investigation, the officials won't care the scenario you put up. That 0 Commandos died.


LOL, you tell me one thing, what the hell were soldiers doing there even when the Ship is in International waters not in Israeli waters, for once try to be sane,

nways your opinion doent matters, Turkey wont ask you before attacking Israel


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## Abu Zolfiqar

these hindustany lot posting on this site are really something else....

what difference does it make who attacked who first? Attack them with stones, the other side attacks with tank shells. Attack them with sticks, they are met by gunfire

why did they make the switch from rubber bullets to live ammunition? Rubber bullets are easily capable of subduing even the most beliggerant person. Same with bean-bag shells fired by shotguns. Even a paintgun can sting a lot if you are hit without wearing any bodily protection (which none of the activists were wearing, clearly). If they HAD to exercise the customary brute force on unarmed people (which the israelis are experts at) --they could have just used tear-gas.


did these ''brave commandos'' consider that they MIGHT just encounter resistance by jumping on their boat and having a threatening posture? What right did they have to go on there?



when it comes to killing people -- men, women, children --- the israelis know what they are doing. They are experts at it. 


But they made a deadly mistake by testing the patience of the Turks. Deadly mistake. It will cost them.




as for the humanitarian missions, I hope they continue. The people on those boats, and those organizations are Islamic charity. And more Muslims (and of course non-Muslim pro Palestinian peace activists) should join in and do their part to support the Palestinians --especially those in dire need in Gaza. 

and this time, Turkish Navy should send clearly armed frigates to provide escort to these ships. 

then we'll see what happens.....israel has no credibility at all. Whatever vestige of sympathy i may have had for them -- its gone now. They are just a nation of murderers and oppresors.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## blain2

> Israeli defense officials have also said, without providing proof, that night vision goggles, gas masks, flak jackets and thousands of dollars were found on the ship, suggesting the possibility that some mercenaries were on board.



How do flak jackets and NVG prove that mercenaries were on board? The folks on the ship also have a right to be able to see at night time. Why is it okay for the Israelis to use FLIR to see everything and the other side is expected to be blind at night? The Israelis were the ones who told them that their ships were to be commandeered so they came ready to ensure this did not happen to the best of their abilities. Secondly, thank God that flak jackets were available to people and I hope they wore them otherwise the casualties would be even higher.

These things become sinister if this ship arrived in Israelis waters and tried to do harm to Israeli citizens. This is not the case.


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## Frankenstein

Vande Mataram said:


> Then that doesn't make sense to these people?
> 
> 
> 
> Are these guys idiots, read the previous sentence. Your proof IS that video.
> Also, what proof do you have that these people were attacked first without provokation and there were no weapons on the ship?
> Ship's still in the hands of IDF.


When some intruders barge in to your room, you will welcome them or watch them or you will attack them from anything you find first??


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## T-Faz

*As part of its blockade of Gaza, Israel prohibits the following items from entering:*

*- chocolate
- jam and fruit preserves
- potato chips
- dried fruit
- fresh meat
- fabric (for clothing)
- notebooks
- newspapers
- toys*

This is from Amnesty International, imagine if another country was doing this, the world would be condeming them to hell and isolate them.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/002/2010/en/c8e6742a-b52a-4c70-b641-986de2db878a/mde150022010en.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## blain2

That is just the basic stuff. There is no infrastructure building materials going in whatsoever. Schools, buildings, hospitals are all falling into disrepair. The UNHCR has been pleading with the Israelis for this stuff to come across with guarantees that it won't be used for any military application to no avail.


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## Frankenstein

T-Faz said:


> *As part of its blockade of Gaza, Israel prohibits the following items from entering:*
> 
> *- chocolate
> - jam and fruit preserves
> - potato chips
> - dried fruit
> - fresh meat
> - fabric (for clothing)
> - notebooks
> - newspapers
> - toys*
> 
> This is from Amnesty International, imagine if another country was doing this, the world would be condeming them to hell and isolate them.
> 
> http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/002/2010/en/c8e6742a-b52a-4c70-b641-986de2db878a/mde150022010en.pdf



We are talking about, Israel here man, the country above the Law, infact anything done to the Muslims doesn't matters to anyone, but anything done by the Muslims is considered as terrorism


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## Frankenstein

Vande Mataram said:


> There was none
> The only truth i found was the video from the IDF commandos.
> 
> *I trust the solid proof* more than what the idiots on board had to say.
> 
> 
> 
> Not Israeli officials. The Investigation that's going on by EU.



yeah the proof given by Israel to save their own @ss, 

you are banned for good


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


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## notsuperstitious

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> these hindustany lot posting on this site are really something else....



Correcting you for the hundredth time, its Hindustani, even someone like you should get it by now.

And many of us have not supported this illegal act on this very thread, so it would be fair not to generalise.

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## Prometheus

*Letters: Our readers side with Israel after Gaza incident*

Letters: Our readers side with Israel after Gaza incident | Full Comment | National Post





Readers have let us know how they feel about Israel&#8217;s forceful storming of a Turkish ship off the coast of Gaza early Monday morning. Of the dozens of letters that have come in, very few criticize the Jewish state; most vigorously support its action. Here are some examples.

Re: Jenin On The High Seas, editorial, May 30.
I read with interest this editorial&#8217;s courageous analysis of Israel&#8217;s constant battle against the propagandists who have an affinity to words and phrases such as &#8220;massacre&#8221; and &#8220;brutal aggression.&#8221; While Israelis are resigned to the fact that Israel is the favourite scapegoat for the world&#8217;s problems, there were some honest peace-seeking do-gooders aboard the flotilla. Unfortunately, it is that naive minority who were themselves duped by their fellow travelling thugs and who ended up serving the role as human shields for a group intent on picking a fight even before they set sail.
S. Jonah Pressman, Jerusalem.

Kudos to the Free Gaza Movement, and of course, its proxy state, Iran, for a brilliant PR job with this &#8220;humanitarian&#8221; convoy. The orders likely were: Make it purely humanitarian, carry no live ammunition on board (only knives and clubs), have ships refuse Israeli orders to pull into an Egyptian port and when Israel attacks, fight them with everything you&#8217;ve got. That will allow evil regimes such as Iran, China and Russia to condemn the action, deflecting true human rights violations in their countries. And when the report comes out showing that Israel did everything it could to avoid casualties, that will, at best, make the back pages of most newspapers.
Once again, well done!
Steven Kastner, Thornhill, Ont.

The United Nations failed to stop genocides in Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur and Bosnia. Yet it called an emergency meeting over an Israeli raid on a boat. The UN&#8217;s true agenda is on display for everyone to see.
Jonathan Mackenzie, Toronto.

Last week, a Mexican airliner bound from Paris to Mexico was forced to land in Montreal, as a person on board was on the American no-fly list. Since the plane was passing over the States, the U.S. rules were still in effect at 32,000 feet. This caused no public outrage.
Israel has its rules too. It has an embargo on ships entering Gaza and insists on inspecting them, as ships have been known to carry weapons that have been used against Israeli citizens. Israel only wants what many of the rest of us enjoy: peace. Israel is only doing what the rest of the world has and would do, if they were faced with the same situation.
Jeff Spooner, Kinburn, Ont.
-----------------------------------------

seems like not everyone against isreal


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## Dr.Evil

fateh71 said:


> Correcting you for the hundredth time, its Hindustani, even someone like you should get it by now.
> 
> And many of us have not supported this illegal act on this very thread, so it would be fair not to generalise.



I have to agree with Fateh71 , some members make it an effort to type the incorrect spelling of India / Bharat / Hindustan.

If the spelling mistake is a genuine mistake, no one has any problem.

This could just cause the derailment of the thread and retaliatory word substitutions could be done, which could hurt peoples feelings.


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## Jade

It was a terrible blunder by Israel. I dont understand what Israel was thinking before initiating such action. Now, this could have far reaching consequence in Middle East and beyond.

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## mjnaushad

T-Faz said:


> *As part of its blockade of Gaza, Israel prohibits the following items from entering:*
> 
> *- chocolate
> - jam and fruit preserves
> - potato chips
> - dried fruit
> - fresh meat
> - fabric (for clothing)
> - notebooks
> - newspapers
> - toys*
> 
> This is from Amnesty International, imagine if another country was doing this, the world would be condeming them to hell and isolate them.
> 
> http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/002/2010/en/c8e6742a-b52a-4c70-b641-986de2db878a/mde150022010en.pdf


I wish those who is supporting this terrorist act get into situation where they get a blockade and their family face all the problems palestinians are facing...


I am sorry but some people showed here that they have no respect for human life so i have no respect for them. Killing by bullet or by stopping food both are killings.

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## Agni 5

mjnaushad said:


> I wish those who is supporting this terrorist act get into situation where they get a blockade and their family face all the problems palestinians are facing...
> 
> 
> I am sorry but some people showed here that they have no respect for human life so i have no respect for them. Killing by bullet or by stopping food both are killings.



You should not forget that, Palestinians could stop rocket launch from their backyard. People who attacked Mumbai on 26/11 also came in a fishing boats.


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## Prometheus

*Israel says Turkey ship was ready for a fight*

Haifa, (Israel): Initially, the Israeli government was in somewhat of a defensive mode. But now it's taken the offensive, saying the ship in the flotilla was ready for a fight. CNN's Matthew Chance speaks with some on board the ship to shed some more light on the situation.
The Israeli commandos were expecting only passive resistance but said they were greeted by knives, iron bars and clubs. Footage recorded by Israel's military shows how unprepared its troops were for what they encountered, a point emphasised by one of the commandos badly injured in the assault.




Now being treated in hospital, we were given access to the officer, named as Captain R on condition we conceal his identity.
"In our plans, there was talk about an expected passive resistance, verbal resistance, may be a little more aggressive resistance," the captain said.
"Given the circumstances we obviously changed our way of operation, which we didn't mean to pursue initially.
"From the outset, the operation to storm the protest ship, bound for Gaza, appears to have gone badly wrong. As the Naval commandos landed on the deck from helicopters, they were set upon. Captain R told us he was confronted by men with clubs and knives. He says he opened fire, but was overpowered and thrown over the deck.
"At the moment I saw that people holding knifes were approaching me and attempting to stab me, I took out my weapon and shot one bullet. A large amount of people threw me down to the main deck, to the lower deck. As I was thrown down, a group of another 10 men jumped on me and stabbed me with a knife in my stomach," Captain R said.
The violence, which left protesters dead and injured - as well as at least 7 Israeli commandos wounded, has provoked a storm of controversy, and raised critical questions for the country's militaryIsrael says Turkey ship was ready for a fight - World - ibnlive


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## Prometheus

*Suspend all ties with Israel: CPI(M)*

New Delhi, Jun 2 (PTI) CPI(M) today demanded that India should sever all ties with Israel in view of the attack by its commandos on a six-ship convoy carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to Gaza strip.

"We condemn this brutal attack by Israel and demand action against Israel under international laws. The government of India must immediately suspend all pacts with Israel," CPI(M) leader Sitaram Yechury said addressing protest march against Israel attack on aid ships which left at least 10 people dead and 60 wounded.

The government must stop negotiating on the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with Israel and cease buying military equipment from it, he said.

Yechury also pointed out that it was extremely disappointing that the statement issued by the Ministry of External Affairs condemning the attack did not even have the mention of Israel.fullstory


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## mjnaushad

Agni 5 said:


> You should not forget that, Palestinians could stop rocket launch from their backyard. People who attacked Mumbai on 26/11 also came in a fishing boats.


What made them do the rocket attack......Blockade of Gaza... If i do blockade of your home how long will you stay quite. There is always a limit. Whats wronge with chochlate and chips that its in the blockade list??

But as i said some members here have no respect for human life.

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## alibaz

mjnaushad said:


> I wish those who is supporting this terrorist act get into situation where they get a blockade and their family face all the problems palestinians are facing...
> 
> 
> I am sorry but some people showed here that they have no respect for human life so i have no respect for them. Killing by bullet or by stopping food both are killings.



I wish they be deprived of their land. Their land be held by people with lethal weapons gathered from all over the world and when resistance is offered they be fired upon by F-16, 15, Cobras and Apaches and the same blockade is imposed only then they would realize the pain.
I also wish that then they come out of their sleep cause I can't wish this even for my biggest enemy.


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## Marxist

*IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel*

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.

Ra'ed Fatooh, in charge of the crossings, and Jamal Khudari, head of a committee against the Gaza blockade, said Israel must release all flotilla detainees and that it will be accepted in the territory only by the Free Gaza Movement people who organized the flotilla.

Israel said it had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys.

Israel has released all foreign flotilla detainees by Wednesday, but four Israeli Arabs remain in custody.

Nine people died Monday when Israel intercepted an aid vessel bound for Gaza.

Under Israeli policy, humanitarian aid must come through Israel and be checked by Israeli authorities who are looking to intercept smuggled weapons bound for militants aiming to attack Israel.

As part of this policy Israel forbids ships from dropping off goods at Gaza ports and works to thwart smuggling via tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.

IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel - CNN.com


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## Agni 5

mjnaushad said:


> What made them do the rocket attack......Blockade of Gaza... If i do blockade of your home how long will you stay quite. There is always a limit. Whats wronge with chochlate and chips that its in the blockade list??
> 
> But as i said some members here have no respect for human life.



Unless you search you don't know what is there in the ship. as I said mumbai attacker come on fishing boat. If Indian did a search on the fishing boat we would not had mumbai incident. 

When Israel commandos searched they were attacked. If it is only food items why there is need of resistance.


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## alibaz

Agni 5 said:


> Unless you search you don't know what is there in the ship. as I said mumbai attacker come on fishing boat. If Indian did a search on the fishing boat we would not had mumbai incident.
> 
> When Israel commandos searched they were attacked. If it is only food items why there is need of resistance.



Mumbai was Indian city thats why they had right to search any ship or boat within Indian waters but Gaza is not Israeli city neither the waters were Israeli. To me Israeli are a million times worse than Somali pirates


Ozis vs bare handed aid workers from all over the globe and religions


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## Marxist

*Israeli PM: Breaking Gaza blockade could lead to missile attacks on Tel Aviv, Jerusalem
*

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel's blockade on Gaza prevents possible missile attacks on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Netanyahu defended Israel's bloody raid on a flotilla headed for Gaza on Monday. He said criticism of the raid is "an attack of international hypocrisy."

He warned Wednesday that if the blockade is lifted, hundreds of ships could bring missiles into Gaza unchecked, and Hamas could target main Israeli population centers.

In a statement broadcast from his office, Netanyahu said: "Now the rockets and missiles that Iran is trying to get into Gaza, and some are already there, are aimed at Tel Aviv, Herzliya and Jerusalem."

TODAYonline | Breaking News | Israeli PM: Breaking Gaza blockade could lead to missile attacks on Tel Aviv, Jerusalem


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## mjnaushad

Agni 5 said:


> Unless you search you don't know what is there in the ship. as I said mumbai attacker come on fishing boat. If Indian did a search on the fishing boat we would not had mumbai incident.
> 
> When Israel commandos searched they were attacked. If it is only food items why there is need of resistance.


*How many times do we need to clearify the ship was in international waters. ISRAEL HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHECK THAT BOAT IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS IT WAS NOT IN ISRAELI WATERS.

And there was need of resistance because they were attacked in international waters.....AN ACT OF WAR*


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## TruthSeeker

Sticks and stones can break my bones,

but WORDS will never hurt me ........




(The USA is not a terrorist state. Yelling it does not make it so.  )

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## Agni 5

mjnaushad said:


> *How many times do we need to clearify the ship was in international waters. ISRAEL HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHECK THAT BOAT IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS IT WAS NOT IN ISRAELI WATERS.
> 
> And there was need of resistance because they were attacked in international waters.....AN ACT OF WAR*



Increasing font size does not weight more points to your post!!

What is it doing in closer to Israel border? It is not a fishing boat!!

Not a exact comparison, If a US AC enters in arabian sea and closer to pakistan border, what will be the Pakistan reaction?


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## mjnaushad

TruthSeeker said:


> Sticks and stones can break my bones,
> 
> but WORDS will never hurt me ........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (The USA is not a terrorist state. Yelling it does not make it so.  )


Maybe the thread starter was little emotional because of the killings and US supporting them in a way by blocking the demand of inquiry. US not only blocked this but always veto any resolution against israel state terrorism. 

But i really feel that US administration really have no humanity left. 

And by the way after such decision do you really wonder why 9/11 happend. A victim seeing not getting justice because of US will love US???


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## rameez ahmed

Agni 5 said:


> Increasing font size does not weight more points to your post!!
> 
> What is it doing in closer to Israel border? It is not a fishing boat!!
> 
> Not a exact comparison, If a US AC enters in arabian sea and closer to pakistan border, what will be the Pakistan reaction?



The ship was in international borders.. Israeli terrorist had no right of even touching it....

If US AC comes closer to Pakistan then it will be inquired by US government that why is that so...... Pakistan will not start attacking that ship as Israeli terrorist did....

you can try by any means to prove it otherwise , but the truth is only that Israel did wrong by attacking them who were unarmed... And they should be punished for their Barbarism and terrorism....


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## TechLahore

^^ The fact is that every time the US does something like this, it is seen as a supporter of the most vile, inhumane acts Israel indulges in. That causes a huge increase in the sentiment against the US - unnecessarily I might add - and undoes the hard work that many Americans are risking their lives for; repairing their international image. 

These sorts of acts, ranging from buffoonery to forced-malevolence, also rob American taxpayers of the billions they spend on goodwill programs. The pounds and ounces of goodwill earned with billions are washed away with a single act of this kind. 

Does this sort of nonsensical and blind support of Israel serve America's purposes or benefit Americans in any way? Very clearly, NO. Unfortunately the US is now held hostage to the agendas of AIPAC and groups like it. 

It made many hopeful to see Hillary Clinton take a principled position on Israel but unfortunately the hope didn't last long. She cut such a helpless, sorry figure when she was browbeaten into what amounted to complete capitulation at an AIPAC event. 

Is this what America has come to? It cannot even pursue a foreign policy in its own interest? Its Secretary of State can be bullied into changing her position based on threats from a vested-interest lobby?

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## Ahmad

fateh71 said:


> Correcting you for the hundredth time, its Hindustani, even someone like you should get it by now.
> 
> And many of us have not supported this illegal act on this very thread, so it would be fair not to generalise.



yes, just because of couple of unjust guys we shouldnt conemn majority of indian menbers here who have had balanced veiws. but trust me people are on fire and cant control themselves, earlier today i also had couple of those harsh comments.


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## Ahmad

jade1982 said:


> It was a terrible blunder by Israel. I dont understand what Israel was thinking before initiating such action. Now, this could have far reaching consequence in Middle East and beyond.



my friend, they were tinking to be above the law and coud get away with murder, and ironically they are bloody right, they can get away with murder and they did so and they will do so in the future. the turkish pm mentioned the unmentionable, he said that israel do whatever it wants without consequences because they have powerful friends.


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## Ahmad

you know what, i feel so helpless, angry and frustrated, as an individual i cant do anything but just cry. this anger has built over the years because of unconditional, unfair and one sided support and policy of america in the medile east, all i can say is hail the Taliban, kill as many american soldiers as you can, flush their resources in the toilet, that might a little bit ease my pain. this was by no means directed to the great public of america, it was directed to the pro terrorist american administration.

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## salman nedian

Agni 5 said:


> Increasing font size does not weight more points to your post!!
> 
> What is it doing in closer to Israel border? It is not a fishing boat!!
> 
> Not a exact comparison, If a US AC enters in arabian sea and closer to pakistan border, what will be the Pakistan reaction?



The maximum weightage belongs to the fact that Israels existence is illegal!

Israel has no right to block the civilian population and they must be punished for that. The whole world knew that flotilla was carrying the basic necessities.

When eyes cannot see the truth and heart cannot support the oppressed than nothing can be done.


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## Solomon2

As I understand it, under international law the correct procedure for dealing with seized neutral-flag vessels is a prize court under the flag of the belligerent party that seized the vessels. Then everything is handled at the sovereign level, rather than, say, Israel dealing directly with the boat owners or Hamas and the Turkish terror-sympathizers who sponsored the flotilla.

As such, Turkey's much-heralded anti-Israel stance is to be expected; all part of the process, you know. It may well vanish when the current matter is resolved. 

So far, it seems Israel will send back the non-combatant passengers and detain the combatants and/or put them on trial. I wonder what Israel will do to the ships themselves? I think they should (if it's legal) keep the one where the passengers attacked the boarding party as a spoil of war and a deterrent against future attacks; but I would let the other boats go.


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## Ahmad

according to the guardian:




Israel to deport remaining Gaza flotilla activists

Decision to release and not prosecute any activists is an attempt to limit damage to relations with Turkey, says Israel


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## Ahmad

here is part of interview with an israeli peace negotiator, you need to click on the link to see the video, wasnt available on the youtube.

Israel 'underestimated reactions' - Middle East - Al Jazeera English


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## Thomas

new video footage from ship cameras showing people preparing weapons.

YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel


footage showing stun grenades being thrown at commandos


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## Thomas

mjnaushad said:


> *How many times do we need to clearify the ship was in international waters. ISRAEL HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHECK THAT BOAT IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS IT WAS NOT IN ISRAELI WATERS.
> 
> And there was need of resistance because they were attacked in international waters.....AN ACT OF WAR*



Israel definitely should have waited. but your argument is really semantics. The flotillas stated purpose was to enter Israels territorial waters. so no matter what the boarding was going to happen. Then what would your argument have been? Also I.H.H. the main sponser of the flottila. Is considered to work closely with terrorist organizations. They have been raided in the past in Turkey and found to be in possession of weapons, explosives, and money bound for Islamist groups.


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## blain2

Prometheus said:


> *Letters: Our readers side with Israel after Gaza incident*
> 
> Letters: Our readers side with Israel after Gaza incident | Full Comment | National Post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Readers have let us know how they feel about Israel&#8217;s forceful storming of a Turkish ship off the coast of Gaza early Monday morning. Of the dozens of letters that have come in, very few criticize the Jewish state; most vigorously support its action. Here are some examples.
> 
> Re: Jenin On The High Seas, editorial, May 30.
> I read with interest this editorial&#8217;s courageous analysis of Israel&#8217;s constant battle against the propagandists who have an affinity to words and phrases such as &#8220;massacre&#8221; and &#8220;brutal aggression.&#8221; While Israelis are resigned to the fact that Israel is the favourite scapegoat for the world&#8217;s problems, there were some honest peace-seeking do-gooders aboard the flotilla. Unfortunately, it is that naive minority who were themselves duped by their fellow travelling thugs and who ended up serving the role as human shields for a group intent on picking a fight even before they set sail.
> S. Jonah Pressman, Jerusalem.
> 
> Kudos to the Free Gaza Movement, and of course, its proxy state, Iran, for a brilliant PR job with this &#8220;humanitarian&#8221; convoy. The orders likely were: Make it purely humanitarian, carry no live ammunition on board (only knives and clubs), have ships refuse Israeli orders to pull into an Egyptian port and when Israel attacks, fight them with everything you&#8217;ve got. That will allow evil regimes such as Iran, China and Russia to condemn the action, deflecting true human rights violations in their countries. And when the report comes out showing that Israel did everything it could to avoid casualties, that will, at best, make the back pages of most newspapers.
> Once again, well done!
> Steven Kastner, Thornhill, Ont.
> 
> The United Nations failed to stop genocides in Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur and Bosnia. Yet it called an emergency meeting over an Israeli raid on a boat. The UN&#8217;s true agenda is on display for everyone to see.
> Jonathan Mackenzie, Toronto.
> 
> Last week, a Mexican airliner bound from Paris to Mexico was forced to land in Montreal, as a person on board was on the American no-fly list. Since the plane was passing over the States, the U.S. rules were still in effect at 32,000 feet. This caused no public outrage.
> Israel has its rules too. It has an embargo on ships entering Gaza and insists on inspecting them, as ships have been known to carry weapons that have been used against Israeli citizens. Israel only wants what many of the rest of us enjoy: peace. Israel is only doing what the rest of the world has and would do, if they were faced with the same situation.
> Jeff Spooner, Kinburn, Ont.
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> seems like not everyone against isreal



Really? Have you bothered understanding what one of National Post's agendas is? We know that its a Canadian newspaper owned by *Israel Harold "Izzy" Asper.*

However one of the first things that the late Mr. Israel Asper did after acquiring National Post was to hire Matt Fraser:

"Under Fraser's editorship, *the Post gained notoriety in Canadian media circles* for its regular feature called "CBC Watch" &#8211; inspired in part by The Daily Telegraph's "Beeb Watch" in Britain &#8211; which pointed out errors of fact and supposed evidence of left-wing and anti-Israeli bias at the public broadcaster. "

Another tool to propagate Israeli PR. Pick something a bit more neutral next time around.


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## blain2

Agni 5 said:


> Unless you search you don't know what is there in the ship. as I said mumbai attacker come on fishing boat. If Indian did a search on the fishing boat we would not had mumbai incident.
> 
> When Israel commandos searched they were attacked. If it is only food items why there is need of resistance.



What search? The manifesto of goods was in front of the Israelis. Even after seizing the ship, they found nothing, NOTHING!

As much as you'd like to defend your new found love for all things Israeli, admit that a wrong has been done and move on.


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## TechLahore

Solomon2 said:


> Precisely! Your sense of self is so overwhelming it has made you blind. Such a man would walk off a cliff, confident that the air would support him! Yet you refuse to countenance that. It spoils your desired world-view.
> 
> Why should you command the respect of others, simply because you elevate self-respect into willful blindness?



I say this with a smile on my face; you, Solomon2, have gotten to the point where you have nothing left to respond with so you twist words and arrive at meanings that satisfy the chips on your shoulder. So be it.

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## TechLahore

Thomas said:


> Israel definitely should have waited. but your argument is really semantics.



Brilliant. So what you are saying is that while it is legal to shoot someone who trespasses on your turf, it is also legal - and merely a "semantic" difference - to mortally injure people who have yet not trespassed. Try it, Thomas, and see what a court of law has to say about it.

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## Barrett

A ship full of civilians taking aid for people who have been taken hostage by an illegal and one of the most violent state to have ever come into existence is a crime under what international laws? 
All you Americans and Indians who support the Israeli atrocities *shame on you* for justifying the killings on all those civilians.
What right does Israel have to keep the people of gaza from the basic necessities of life like water, electricity and food ?
You americans are two faced people, you condemned the attacks on civilians in Lebanon and at the same time sent ships full of weapons to Israel.

Down with U.S.
Down with Israel.


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## Solomon2

Ahmad said:


> all i can say is hail the Taliban, kill as many american soldiers as you can, flush their resources in the toilet, that might a little bit ease my pain.


Wouldn't healing Afghanistan go further towards healing your pain than killing Americans? Yes, it seems Afghanistan was turned into a war zone for the past thirty years partly through the machinations of President Jimmy Carter and his security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski. I am sorry about that; I didn't know until Brzezinski confessed a few years back. (Though I did know that the Soviet Ambassador, Dobrynin, hated both men with an unusual and ill-explained passion.) 

I would never have knowingly pursued a policy of baiting the Soviets to make war on the country without a commitment to economic aid and building up a democracy afterwards. America is doing a lot towards making up for that now.


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## Meengla

Thomas said:


> new video footage from ship cameras showing people preparing weapons.
> 
> YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel
> 
> 
> footage showing stun grenades being thrown at commandos
> 
> YouTube - Mavi Marmara Passengers Attack IDF Before Soldiers Board Ship



Thomas,
I have to say that you and Vande Matrem like people are no better than some trolls! If there were grenades or guns then why were they not laid out on that green flag along with other 'weapons' by the Israelis? You know they would not have missed that show, don't you? And how nice for you heartless souls to keep feeding the videos made by the IDF! Stupid IDF could not even have a more clandestine YouTube channel and had to have 'idf' in the name.

Gosh, I am so sick of you trolls! *Now I will ask other members and Moderators--who do not belong to you or your pathetic Indian supporters--to take you guys to task and give you some sampling of forum exposure as the Indian Bharat Rakshak does*.

Enough of your crap! However you slice and dice you are not going to convince anyone except confirmed Zionists and some opportunist Indian bloggers. If you don't have anything else to share other than the same old, same old then get the hell out of here *because you are disrespecting the dead and that is, by any measure, a very ugly thing.*

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## Ahmad

Solomon2 said:


> Wouldn't healing Afghanistan go further towards healing your pain than killing Americans? Yes, it seems Afghanistan was turned into a war zone for the past thirty years partly through the machinations of President Jimmy Carter and his security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski. I am sorry about that; I didn't know until Brzezinski confessed a few years back. (Though I did know that the Soviet Ambassador, Dobrynin, hated both men with an usual and ill-explained passion.)
> 
> I would never have knowingly pursued a policy of baiting the Soviets to make war on the country without a commitment to economic aid and building up a democracy afterwards. America is doing a lot towards making up for that now.



my anger was because of the issue of palestine and israel.


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## Barrett

Agni 5 said:


> Unless you search you don't know what is there in the ship. as I said mumbai attacker come on fishing boat. If Indian did a search on the fishing boat we would not had mumbai incident.
> 
> When Israel commandos searched they were attacked. If it is only food items why there is need of resistance.



Oh! what an argument. 

People from 42 countries with reporters from all over the world covering the whole story were taking weapons into Gaza?
For Heavens sake don't defend the actions of Israel just for the sake of defending it and coming up with such illogical and childish justifications. 

Before you bring the Mumbai argument into this, go ask Col.Purohit and Pragya thakur about their involvement in the train attacks that killed so many innocent civilians.
Go and investigate the killing of your ATS chief during the Mumbai drama.

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## Pakz

I find it amusing that some people especially some Indians and Americans are supporting that Israel use of lethal force of killing people on board flotilla was justified.

Even if there was a riot, the use of live ammunition proves that Israel intent was to kill people. IDF could have used other means BUT it did not intentionally.


There are numerous riots around the world and they are much worse than what was portrayed on the ship. Here are some examples.









However, NO Professional Police force would use Lethal force of using real bullets against a crowd. If you consider IDF to be professional force it would not have used real ammunition. 

Perhaps some Indians and Americans here are too naïve to understand this.


----------



## Barrett

Pakz said:


> Perhaps some Indians and Americans here are too naïve to understand this.




Not naive, TWO FACED godless idiots


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## Ahmad

guys, please dont generalize the indian members on this specific matter, majority of them are having balanced view with the exception of 2 or 3 people.

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## Meengla

Barrett said:


> You americans are two faced people, you condemned the attacks on civilians in Lebanon and at the same time sent ships full of weapons to Israel.
> 
> Down with U.S.
> Down with Israel.



@Barret,
Israelis love to pose as Americans; even if it is a fact that, outside of Israel, Americans are the only one where there is a large pro-Israel support, that too is changing, as per my link to the Comments made to a NY Times article above.
So please do not condemn Americans for the actions of these heart-less bloggers. If anyone can influence Israel quick enough then it would be the Americans and we need to work with them in logical way.

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## Barrett

Ahmad said:


> guys, please dont generalize the indian members on this specific matter, majority of them are having balanced view with the exception of 2 or 3 people.



The comments are for those 2 or 3 people only.

Please stop acting like the newly appointed 4th grade class monitor.


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## Ahmad

please differentiate between the american policy and what the american people think. i havent been to america, but who knows people of america might think differently than their gov.


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## Ahmad

Barrett said:


> The comments are for those 2 or 3 people only.
> 
> Please stop acting like the newly appointed 4th grade class monitor.



your post was clearly pointing to every indian members. why didnt you make it specific to those 3 people then?


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## Barrett

Ahmad said:


> your post was clearly pointing to every indian members. why didnt you make it specific to those 3 people then?



OK sorry sir, please dont punish me.


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## Agni 5

Barrett said:


> Oh! what an argument.
> 
> People from 42 countries with reporters from all over the world covering the whole story were taking weapons into Gaza?
> For Heavens sake don't defend the actions of Israel just for the sake of defending it and coming up with such illogical and childish justifications.
> 
> Before you bring the Mumbai argument into this, go ask Col.Purohit and Pragya thakur about their involvement in the train attacks that killed so many innocent civilians.
> Go and investigate the killing of your ATS chief during the Mumbai drama.



Do you know same deprived palatines sending rockets from their backyards? I wonder where they getting explosives.

If you read RiazHaq posts palastines have higher human developmeny index and higher calorie intake than India.

I wonder where they getting all the food and luxury goods?

Now you say everything is due to Indian Kashmir occupation.


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## Thomas

Meengla said:


> Thomas,
> I have to say that you and Vande Matrem like people are no better than some trolls! If there were grenades or guns then why were they not laid out on that green flag along with other 'weapons' by the Israelis? You know they would not have missed that show, don't you? And how nice for you heartless souls to keep feeding the videos made by the IDF! Stupid IDF could not even have a more clandestine YouTube channel and had to have 'idf' in the name.
> 
> Gosh, I am so sick of you trolls! *Now I will ask other members and Moderators--who do not belong to you or your pathetic Indian supporters--to take you guys to task and give you some sampling of forum exposure as the Indian Bharat Rakshak does*.
> 
> Enough of your crap! However you slice and dice you are not going to convince anyone except confirmed Zionists and some opportunist Indian bloggers. If you don't have anything else to share other than the same old, same old then get the hell out of here *because you are disrespecting the dead and that is, by any measure, a very ugly thing.*



The IDF didn't make the videos the flotilla people did. Israel simply captured them. Your idea of trolling seems to be anyone who doesn't agree with you. Israel should be taken to task for boarding the ship in international waters. But in my opinion the flotilla people were looking for a fight. And share part of the blame. If they were the peaceful activists they like to portray themselves as. then they simply should have complied with the commandos. No matter if they were in international waters or in Israels territorial waters. 

If a policeman stops you even if you did nothing wrong do you comply? or do you resist and fight saying I did nothing wrong you can't do this? As I said before the boarding was going to happen no matter if it was in international waters or territorial waters. Also there is a way for Hamas to end the blockade they just don't want to do it.


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## Solomon2

"my anger was because of the issue of palestine and israel."

Three people are standing, riding in a bus, when the driver suddenly hits the brakes. Immediately they hit the floor, one on top of the other.

The person on the bottom hits the person who fell on top of him. 

The second person protests, "Don't blame me, blame inertia!"

The first person replies, "O.K., I'll hit him, too!" - and slugs the person who fell on top.

*

Doesn't make much sense, does it?


----------



## Barrett

Agni 5 said:


> Do you know same deprived palatines sending rockets from their backyards? I wonder where they getting explosives.
> 
> If you read RiazHaq posts palastines have higher human developmeny index and higher calorie intake than India.
> 
> I wonder where they getting all the food and luxury goods?
> 
> Now you say everything is due to Indian Kashmir occupation.



Your terrorist is my Freedom fighter..... if Israel has the right to deprive them of their basic needs... if their land is occupied by those jews they have every right to fight for it.... if Israel can use phosphorous bombs on civilians they have every right to send rockets into Israel.... even a cat will attack you if she is cornered... what other option do they have when you build walls all around them and cut their electricity and water and food supply and leave them with nothing at all.... I wonder why don't you people talk of all these actions taken by Israel and talk of only reactions by the Palestinians.

Convenience maybe.

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## Thomas

Pakz said:


> I find it amusing that some people especially some Indians and Americans are supporting that Israel use of lethal force of killing people on board flotilla was justified.
> 
> Even if there was a riot, the use of live ammunition proves that Israel intent was to kill people. IDF could have used other means BUT it did not intentionally.
> 
> 
> There are numerous riots around the world and they are much worse than what was portrayed on the ship. Here are some examples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, NO Professional Police force would use Lethal force of using real bullets against a crowd. If you consider IDF to be professional force it would not have used real ammunition.
> 
> Perhaps some Indians and Americans here are too naïve to understand this.



Commandos are not police nor are they trained to be usually. If I was still in the service. and someone came at me with a knife, club, broken bottle, ect. I am going to shoot him. With a club I may shoot for the legs. But a knife or broken bottle I will shoot to kill.


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## Meengla

@Thomas,
You are actually lying and you know it: Where are the pictures of 'grenades'? Where are the alleged guns on that green flag?
And, with a ship full of camera men, I find it hard to believe there are not other videos clearly implicating the pirate coward army called the Israel Destruction Force.
And, yes, the video is posted on the IDF channel.
You are a troll. And a heart-less one at that. You should be taken to task for misrepresenting and cherry-picking the 'evidence' so that you can advance the lies fed to you to that the Flotilla with a Holocaust Survivor and an Irish Nobel Peace Prize winner as a 'terrorist' Flotilla.
You have nothing to contribute and you are reduced to disrespecting the dead. ied away. You guys are shameless, heartless and soul-less and take others for idiots. Tell me: Is it the latest directive for you and your kind to keep repeating and posting highly partisan videos from IDF?


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## asq

Agni 5 said:


> And what are they doing in international water close to Israel border?
> 
> Knowing that Israel has naval blockade on Gaza.



And u donot know.

Delivering foods and medicine. Even India as a bully would not stop supplies to Kashmir.

It is a joke whem Israel say Gazans are getting weapons, hypothetically speaking that even if Gazan's get million guns still they will not match even 1&#37; of the most deadly force in the world. and u think with these home made rockets that are made from fire crackers gazans can face most modern Army which has satlites, modern jets, tanks and cries like baby. I tell u it is a ploy to fool the world.

When it come to bragging even U Indians brag about Israeli army as the top in the world and yet Israelis cry for would be few guns in the hands of Gazans, hypothetically speaking.

And dude no people will agree with blockade arround them for years, they will fightback even if they only have sticks. Remember Gasdhi and his march for sea salt.

But factuly speaking, if there were guns found Israel would have created mayham in the wolrd by crying like little kid speaking in ther loudest voices saying we found guns,we found, we found guns, we found guns.

Cupish dude.


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## asq

Thomas said:


> Commandos are not police nor are they trained to be usually. If I was still in the service. and someone came at me with a knife, club, broken bottle, ect. I am going to shoot him. With a club I may shoot for the legs. But a knife or broken bottle I will shoot to kill.



Are u judtifying the killing by your strange anology. thomas.

do you have any humnity left in u. Thomas.


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## Agni 5

Barrett said:


> Your terrorist is my Freedom fighter..... if Israel has the right to deprive them of their basic needs... if their land is occupied by those jews they have every right to fight for it.... if Israel can use phosphorous bombs on civilians they have every right to send rockets into Israel.... *even a cat will attack you if she is cornered*... what other option do they have when you build walls all around them and cut their electricity and water and food supply and leave them with nothing at all.... I wonder why don't you people talk of all these actions taken by Israel and talk of only reactions by the Palestinians.
> 
> Convenience maybe.



Thats what happened inside ship. Commandos where cornered and attacked. If cat can fight back what you expect from trained and armed commandos.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Thomas, israel created HAMAS in the first place


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## Pakz

Thomas said:


> Commandos are not police nor are they trained to be usually. If I was still in the service. and someone came at me with a knife, club, broken bottle, ect. I am going to shoot him. With a club I may shoot for the legs. But a knife or broken bottle I will shoot to kill.




Thomas, that applies when you are threatened individually. It is an isolated case. IDF knew already that there is high propability of riot due to anger and if they were ill- prepared for it. They are too be blamed.

Perhaps, you should learn what is a Riot?
Howstuffworks "How Riot Control Works"

US Air forces do go under crowd riot training. It is not only restricted to police force.





U.S. Air Forces in Europe - Media Gallery


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## Meengla

To All the people of conscience here: We cannot let people like Solomon2, Thomas, Adir, Vande Matrem and host of other mostly Indian/Israeli bloggers to continue to disrespect the dead and distort the events. Their aim is to create just 'enough doubt' by repeating the same-old, same-old and keep posting the same videos--distributed and quite possibly DOCTORED BY IDF--so much that we give up. 
*Are we going to give up? No! I'd say let's take the fight to their own territory! Lets take the testimonials from the Flotilla's recently freed members and spread it all over the internet : Washington Post, NyTimes, Haaretz, MSN, Yahoo...identify more sources and please share with us.
If today Israel is feeling the heat it is precisely because of the war of public opinion. These people are nervous and they have their heartless drones spreading lies. Beat them in their game!*

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## Thomas

Meengla said:


> @Thomas,
> You are actually lying and you know it: Where are the pictures of 'grenades'? Where are the alleged guns on that green flag?
> And, with a ship full of camera men, I find it hard to believe there are not other videos clearly implicating the pirate coward army called the Israel Destruction Force.
> And, yes, the video is posted on the IDF channel.
> You are a troll. And a heart-less one at that. You should be taken to task for misrepresenting and cherry-picking the 'evidence' so that you can advance the lies fed to you to that the Flotilla with a Holocaust Survivor and an Irish Nobel Peace Prize winner as a 'terrorist' Flotilla.
> You have nothing to contribute and you are reduced to disrespecting the dead. ied away. You guys are shameless, heartless and soul-less and take others for idiots. Tell me: Is it the latest directive for you and your kind to keep repeating and posting highly partisan videos from IDF?



Your burying head and denying who made the videos. when everyone can see they came from the flotilla. And the grenade can clearly be seen being thrown from the ship then blowing up. I am curious what your argument would have been if the boarding would have taken place in Israels territorial waters? Would the flotilla people have been with in their rights to fight then?

It is a tragedy that so many died when they didn't need to.


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> Commandos are not police nor are they trained to be usually. If I was still in the service. and someone came at me with a knife, club, broken bottle, ect. I am going to shoot him. With a club I may shoot for the legs. But a knife or broken bottle I will shoot to kill.



So what happens when you are on a cruise ship sailing in International waters and Somali pirates armed with AK-47s climb on board?

I am not sure about you, but I would be damned if I let these guys tell me what I need to be doing in International waters. I will beat their ***** with whatever I can get my hands on. In this case, whatever the people on the ship had was nothing compared to firearms used against them during this *illegal* boarding.


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## Thomas

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Thomas, israel created HAMAS in the first place



I think Arafat did when he agreed to then reneged on the camp David peace accords. He started the intifada thinking it would gain him more leverage. Boy was he wrong!


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> Your burying head and denying who made the videos. when everyone can see they came from the flotilla. And the grenade can clearly be seen being thrown from the ship then blowing up. I am curious what your argument would have been if the boarding would have taken place in Israels territorial waters? Would the flotilla people have been with in their rights to fight then?
> 
> It is a tragedy that so many died when they didn't need to.



The grenade could have very easily been returned with love to the Israelis, who without a shadow of doubt used it during fast roping. Its a standard SOP in such situations. The video (The IDF one) starts (very conveniently) in the middle with some operators already on board, however people have said that before the boarding even started, there was some firing that took place from the Israeli side.

Had this happened in Israeli territorial waters, yes Israel has the right to stop these folks. However this did not happen in Israeli territorial waters and Israelis boarded the ship illegally.


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## Thomas

Pakz said:


> Thomas, that applies when you are threatened individually. It is an isolated case. IDF knew already that there is high propability of riot due to anger and if they were ill- prepared for it. They are too be blamed.
> 
> Perhaps, you should learn what is a Riot?
> Howstuffworks "How Riot Control Works"
> 
> US Air forces do go under crowd riot training. It is not only restricted to police force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Air Forces in Europe - Media Gallery



Military police are trained as well as national guard troops in the U.S. The regular army grunts are not generally.


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> Somali pirates are not a Government body. And I beg the question again what if it wasn't in international waters. what if it was Israels territorial waters? would they be justified then?



It matter little if Somalis are a government body or not or if the Israelis are a government body. The boarding is illegal from the standpoint of any maritime law or UN law. This is the crux of the matter.

I have already answered the point about if it was in Israel's territorial waters. If this had happened there, Israelis could have taken steps that they deemed appropriate. But Gaza coast and International waters are not Israeli waters.


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## Pakz

Thomas said:


> Military police are trained as well as national guard troops in the U.S. The regular army grunts are not generally.



IDF commandoes were elite units, they were not regular army grunts.

here you go, even US Marines do riot crowd training.




U.S., Mongolian forces conclude training with riot demonstration

if US marines go through riot crowd control procedure, so must have Israel elite commandoes.

if you still disagree on this, then i can not say much.


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## Meengla

Thomas,
EVEN Mark Regev did not mention 'grenades'. There were no weapons. If there were Israelis would have shown those on the green flag. And I am NOT going to believe a grainy footage 'cleared' by the IDF--the IDF!--there were plenty of cameras onboard at that time and I hope Israelis were not able to confiscate everything. Truth is already out and it will come out in multimedia for the world to see once these activists get hold of their breath. Your cunning side used the power of the gun to display the first act. But this is a multi-act play. So keep watching.
And, for the n'th time, the Flotilla was not heading toward Israel's territorial waters--Gaza is not part of Israel, as your stupid politicians keep saying that 'we disengaged from Gaza'. So your question might as well be if the Flotilla had reached the water of Tahiti.


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## apophenia

It's fucked up, but that's yet another US legacy that has not been opposed by the current administration. This administration has much bigger things to work on, like two wars and stopping/tracking terrorists. I find it hilarious that people think legality has anything to do with right and wrong with it comes to US and Israel.


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> Military police are trained as well as national guard troops in the U.S. The regular army grunts are not generally.



Almost all Naval Special Forces train for VBSS specifically. This teaches them how to board and do crowd control on ships, boats and oil rigs/platforms. The Israeli planning was lacking, the killings were as a result of desperate action on the part of the Israelis after the whole operation was botched.

I posted an article from Haretz that addresses the screw-ups that led to the deaths. Had better planning been done and these boats allowed to pass, none of this would have come to pass. This is something that even some in Israel are questioning.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...-forgotten-the-lessons-of-the-exodus-1.293391


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## Thomas

blain2 said:


> It matter little if Somalis are a government body or not or if the Israelis are a government body. The boarding is illegal from the standpoint of any maritime law or UN law. This is the crux of the matter.
> 
> I have already answered the point about if it was in Israel's territorial waters. If this had happened there, Israelis could have taken steps that they deemed appropriate. But Gaza coast and International waters are not Israeli waters.



I have never said the Israelis were right to board in international waters. I argue it is really semantics becuase no matter what the boarding was going to happen. And that both sides are responsible not just the Israeli's. the fact that it happened in international waters. Is simply being seized on for propaganda purposes. I would wager you the same violence would have occurred in territorial waters. The I.H.H. was looking for a fight no matter what.


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## apophenia

@ Solomon2

Just because someone criticize Israel doesn't mean they are anti Israel.btw what will be the charges against combatant passengers' captured by Israel ?


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## asq

IndianArmy said:


> You have caught the wrong side of the coin sir, Justifying Israels action, I hope not... But arguing the intentions behind the attack, yes.... The activists must not have attacked without knowing there Intentions, which Made them Go mad and Open fire.....
> 
> A highly trained Defense organization like Israel would never Let Commandos inside a ship if there intentions were to kill....they would have tried to blockade the ship, and tried to search.... Again Iam not justifying, But see what led them to do so.....
> 
> 
> Anyways India has been sending Aid to Palestine and thats more than enough to prove anyone that We do not support israel is such cases



Highly terained, u must be joking.

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## gambit

Meengla said:


> Thomas,
> EVEN Mark Regev did not mention 'grenades'. There were no weapons. If there were Israelis would have shown those on the green flag. And I am NOT going to believe a grainy footage 'cleared' by the IDF--the IDF!--there were plenty of cameras onboard at that time and I hope Israelis were not able to confiscate everything. Truth is already out and it will come out in multimedia for the world to see once these activists get hold of their breath. Your cunning side used the power of the gun to display the first act. But this is a multi-act play. So keep watching.
> And, for the n'th time, the Flotilla was not heading toward Israel's territorial waters--*Gaza is not part of Israel*, as your stupid politicians keep saying that 'we disengaged from Gaza'. So your question might as well be if the Flotilla had reached the water of Tahiti.


Gaza is under Israeli control and that imply administrations and all the associated rights and responsibilities to the territory under said control. Any trespass or intention to trespass deserve a response.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Thomas said:


> I think Arafat did when he agreed to then reneged on the camp David peace accords. He started the intifada thinking it would gain him more leverage. Boy was he wrong!



as you are wrong thinking that people under oppression wont resort to resistance --whether its stones or crude unguided rockets

israel's wanton disregard for human life and property is hardly new, nor out of character; but you are killing your credibility every time these incidents take place --whether its in Falasteen, Lebanon, or even Dubai & international waters where you have no sovereignty

israel helped promote the creation of HAMAS to overthrow the PLO. That worked well for you, did it not

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## mr42O

Agni 5 said:


> Do you know same deprived palatines sending rockets from their backyards? I wonder where they getting explosives.
> 
> If you read RiazHaq posts palastines have higher human developmeny index and higher calorie intake than India.
> 
> I wonder where they getting all the food and luxury goods?
> 
> Now you say everything is due to Indian Kashmir occupation.



And why do u think they are doing that ? Can you tell how and when Isreal was born ? And who were kicked out from there homes ? Can you tell me how many arabs have died since 1948 and how many Isrealies have died ?

Isreals are cancer to this world. There are main root to all terror in world.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

PPL saying Isreal did not attacked ships than wtf were they doing in there ships ? were they invited ?


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## Waffen SS

This fool Talat hussain would never go to helpless people in HUNZA VALLEY but is ready to make a trip to PALESTINE just because it is MORE GLAMOROUS and HEROIC.

What a hypocrite, instead of helping his own countrymen, he cares about others.

DISGUSTINGLY UNPATRIOTIC. These people enjoy every thing by virtue of our FATHERLAND but yet they shamelessly display their sympathies on others.

What does he think? Is Pakistan is some SWITZERLAND where all people are happy and don't need any help?


----------



## Brotherhood

*After Flotilla Raid, U.S. Is Torn Between Allies*
By MARK LANDLER
Published: June 1, 2010

WASHINGTON  Struggling to navigate a bitter split between two important allies, the Obama administration on Tuesday tried to placate an outraged Turkish government while refusing to condemn Israel for its deadly raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.

President Obama telephoned Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey to express his deep condolences for the deaths of Turkish citizens in clashes with Israeli soldiers on the ship, the White House said. He told Mr. Erdogan that the United States was pushing Israel to return their bodies, as well as 300 Turks who were taken from the ship and being held in Israel.

Mr. Obama called for a credible, impartial and transparent investigation of the facts surrounding this tragedy, the White House said. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said such an investigation could include international participation, something the Israelis said they opposed.

It is far from clear that these efforts will mollify Turkey, which accused Israel of state-sponsored terrorism and likened the psychological impact of the raid to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States. No one should think we will keep quiet in the face of this, Mr. Erdogan declared during a visit to Chile.

The deep rift between Israel and Turkey, which had cultivated close ties, puts the Obama administration in a tough spot on two of its most pressing foreign-policy issues: the Middle East and Iran.

The United States does not want to abandon Israel, which has been subjected to international opprobrium since the raid. The administration is desperate to keep alive indirect peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians brokered by its special envoy, George J. Mitchell.

But it also does not want to alienate Turkey, which is playing an increasingly vocal role on the world stage. Relations were already tender after the United States threw cold water on a Turkish and Brazilian effort to resolve the impasse over Irans nuclear program. Turkish officials complain that they negotiated the deal with the encouragement and agreement of the administration.

Turkey and Israel are both good friends of the United States, and we are working with both to deal with the aftermath of the tragic incident, Mrs. Clinton told reporters at the State Department after meeting with Turkeys foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu.

She conferred with Mr. Davutoglu for more than two hours, rearranging her schedule. Mr. Obamas national security adviser, Gen. James L. Jones, went to see him at his hotel before Mr. Obama called Mr. Erdogan.

Earlier in the day, Mr. Davutoglu harshly criticized the cautious American response to the raid, saying: We expect full solidarity with us. It should not seem like a choice between Turkey and Israel. It should be a choice between right and wrong, between legal and illegal.

He complained that the United States had delayed and watered down the United Nations Security Council statement on Israel, which condemned the actions on the ship rather than Israel itself.

Mr. Davutoglu demanded that Israel apologize for the attack, release the detained passengers, return the bodies of the dead, agree to an independent investigation and lift its blockade of Gaza. He said Turkey was prepared to go back to the United Nations for further action against Israel.

Israel, which defended the actions of its soldiers as a legitimate response to armed attacks by those on the ship, said it could not release the 300 passengers more quickly because they were illegal aliens and had to be held for at least 42 hours under Israeli law. Israel was also questioning 20 to 30 people who it says were directly involved in clashes with the soldiers.

Were going to do our best to heal the wounds with the Turks, said Michael B. Oren, Israels ambassador to the United States, who also met with General Jones and other White House officials.

But Mr. Oren said Israeli authorities had asked Turkey to divert the flotilla to the Israeli port of Ashdod to avoid a confrontation with Israeli forces. He said Israel would have unloaded the cargo of construction material and humanitarian aid and arranged for it to be shipped to Gaza.

Mr. Oren said the Israelis would undertake their own investigation, but he resisted calls for international involvement. Israel has been leery of international investigations since the Goldstone report, which faulted Israel for excessive force in its military strike on Gaza in 2008.

More recently, the South Korean government has won praise for an investigation into the torpedoing of one of its warships, which was aided by the United States, Australia, Sweden and other countries. The report found that a North Korea submarine fired the torpedo.

The Israelis have traditional and well-founded concerns about international investigations, said a senior administration official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. But everyone recognizes that for an investigation to be credible, others have to be able to vouch for the results.

The flotilla case seems likely to harden Turkeys skepticism about a United Nations resolution on Iran. Imposing more sanctions now, Mr. Davutoglu said, would only precipitate a confrontation with Iran in a few months, one that would be even riskier because of the broader tensions.

Asked what the best policy toward Iran is, he said, Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy and more diplomacy.

Ethan Bronner contributed reporting.
After Flotilla Raid, U.S. Is Torn Between Allies - NYTimes.com


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## asq

> Waffen SS said:
> 
> 
> 
> This fool Talat hussain would never go to helpless people in HUNZA VALLEY but is ready to make a trip to PALESTINE just because it is MORE GLAMOROUS and HEROIC.
> 
> What a hypocrite, instead of helping his own countrymen, he cares about others.
> 
> DISGUSTINGLY UNPATRIOTIC. These people enjoy every thing by virtue of our FATHERLAND but yet they shamelessly display their sympathies on others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the hell u know that hunzans
> needed help, sir U. are clueless and seem to be proud of it.
> 
> read on.
> 
> http://www.trivia-library.com/a/hea...with-high-longevity-hunza-pakistan-part-3.htm
Click to expand...

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## Barrett

gambit said:


> Gaza is under Israeli control and that imply administrations and all the associated rights and responsibilities to the territory under said control. Any trespass or intention to trespass deserve a response.



Slight correction.

*Gaza is under Israeli "illegal occupation"* that kills civilians everyday with bullets, helicopter rockets, tank shells, phosphorus bombs and starvation, that is exactly the reason why all those people from dozens of different countries were taking food and other humanitarian aid for the civilians of gaza taken hostage by a Country that does all this and rides on the back of US and successfully makes people like you defend their barbaric acts on forums like these.


*Any trespass or intention to trespass deserve a response *

What response do you deserve in Iraq and Afghanistan? and what response does Isreal deserve in Palestine ?

Even after the world has seen the American heroics in baghram jail, abu ghuraib and guantanamo you still have the courage to talk of obligations under international laws.

Go take a walk and give these justifications in your retired officers gatherings you surely will be applauded there.

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## Solomon2

> Just because someone criticize Israel doesn't mean they are anti Israel.


If Israel is held to a standard that nobody else is, that is anti-Israel.



> what will be the charges against combatant passengers' captured by Israel ?


I'm not sure. Assault with intent to kill or an act of war? So you see, with this sort of thing, even the charges are a matter to be discussed between the sovereign parties because the context of the activity - whether the combatants did this on their own or as agents of someone else - isn't entirely clear until the affected neutral state - Turkey - declares its position.


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## Meengla

What a generous offer was made to Arafat in Camp David in 2000!

Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

Israel's own Yuri Avneri--a former legislator--debunks the 'generous' offer.

You see: The Zionists are outright liars. They are deceptive. They have used the tragedy of holocaust to milk the Western world. Currently their hold is mostly reduced to American Congress where, in typical American political fashion, $$ is might and might is right. But even in America, thanks to the power of the Internet, their grip is loosening.

Zionists and their sympathizers: Watch out. As @TechLahore mentioned in one of his post in this topic, there are something inevitable in history and eventually the demographics are going to sort it all out. And you better pray that you have NOT pi$$ed off too many people by then.


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> I have never said the Israelis were right to board in international waters. I argue it is really semantics becuase no matter what the boarding was going to happen. And that both sides are responsible not just the Israeli's. the fact that it happened in international waters. Is simply being seized on for propaganda purposes. I would wager you the same violence would have occurred in territorial waters. The I.H.H. was looking for a fight no matter what.



So let me ask, if Israelis knew that the boarding was going to lead to an altercation, why did the Israelis give them this excuse to fight when there has been a precedence set in the past of allowing ships through? What business does Israel have stopping international shipping from arriving at the port of Gaza which is not under Israeli control and there are no UN resolutions making Israel the guarantor of the port and the Gazan littoral waters?

The fault is primarily with the Israelis as they have no business conducting the boarding. Their blockade is illegal and has had a significant humanitarian impact on the already miserable lives of the 1.5 million Palestinians living like sardines in a 24x7 prison.

If someone tells me that the Israelis have a right under some International agreement to board then I would say, okay the law is on the side of the Israelis. However it is not, rather its on the side of those who are trying to beat the blockade. 

If the other side has scored propaganda points, its because they have been given these points on a platter due to the sheer idiocy of the Israeli response and the fact that they have no legal cover for the boarding that took place.

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## blain2

gambit said:


> Gaza is under Israeli control and that imply administrations and all the associated rights and responsibilities to the territory under said control. Any trespass or intention to trespass deserve a response.



Since when? If it is under their "control" then why is there a need to blockade?

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## blain2

Waffen SS said:


> This fool Talat hussain would never go to helpless people in HUNZA VALLEY but is ready to make a trip to PALESTINE just because it is MORE GLAMOROUS and HEROIC.
> 
> What a hypocrite, instead of helping his own countrymen, he cares about others.
> 
> DISGUSTINGLY UNPATRIOTIC. These people enjoy every thing by virtue of our FATHERLAND but yet they shamelessly display their sympathies on others.
> 
> What does he think? Is Pakistan is some SWITZERLAND where all people are happy and don't need any help?



Although I am not a fan of TH, he is a journalist and can go anywhere in the world to do his reporting. He was in Swat reporting from there so I really don't get your point. 

Its probably an indication of maturity on the part of the Pakistani media to get out of Pakistan and get a better world view. Hopefully such foreign trips will open up the horizons of our journalists within.

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## Kompromat

*This video is a Slap in the face of Israeli supporters .*

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## Kompromat



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## sur

Black Blood said:


> *This video is a Slap in the face of Israeli supporters .*


Israeli MP onboard that ship...

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## Kompromat

*The most comprehensive video on this issue so Far.*


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## pkd

Well the reality is that Gaza is a massive concentration camp and Isrealis are the Nazi guards. In fact it can be called as the Gulags of the modern times.

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## Pakz

Today everyone should have no doubts that Democracy in USA is no different than dictatorship. The lobbyists control the decision and influence the foreign policy. It does not matter if Democrats or Republicans are elected. Democracy that the USA prides about is just a smoke screen.

The common people should understand that it is not the fault of USA public; rather this is how the system is setup. AIPAC lobbyists have strong presence in the politic circles, which is why you see USA blocking UN inquiry into the deaths.


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## asq

Prometheus said:


> was that cargo in isreali area without permission???



Dum question. Usual indian style of pleading ignorance.


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## asq

Another report. must read.

ISRAELI ATTACK ON GAZA AID SHIP VIOLATES INTERNATIONAL LAW - Reality Asserts Itself


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## fallstuff

Marxist said:


> *IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel*
> 
> Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.
> 
> Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.
> 
> Ra'ed Fatooh, in charge of the crossings, and Jamal Khudari, head of a committee against the Gaza blockade, said Israel must release all flotilla detainees and that it will be accepted in the territory only by the Free Gaza Movement people who organized the flotilla.
> 
> Israel said it had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys.
> 
> Israel has released all foreign flotilla detainees by Wednesday, but four Israeli Arabs remain in custody.
> 
> Nine people died Monday when Israel intercepted an aid vessel bound for Gaza.
> 
> Under Israeli policy, humanitarian aid must come through Israel and be checked by Israeli authorities who are looking to intercept smuggled weapons bound for militants aiming to attack Israel.
> 
> As part of this policy Israel forbids ships from dropping off goods at Gaza ports and works to thwart smuggling via tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.
> 
> IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel - CNN.com



Actually it is receeiving ,storage, and distribution of stolen property by the perp.


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## apophenia

Solomon2 said:


> If Israel is held to a standard that nobody else is, that is anti-Israel.



Cant help it when Israel is hell bound in setting standard in making mockery of international laws. btw you need to come up with a fresher word to slam public option over here when they rally for accountability and investigations against Israel. 




Solomon2 said:


> *I'm not sure.* Assault with intent to kill or an act of war? So you see, with this sort of thing, even the charges are a matter to be discussed between the sovereign parties because the context of the activity - whether the combatants did this on their own or as agents of someone else - isn't entirely clear until the affected neutral state - Turkey - declares its position.



Then your assumption is either sincere ignorance or conscientious stupidity. Why should Turkey declare their position on the matter, when ships flying her flags were attacked by Israel on high seas. Israel recklessness actually didn't mitigate any offense, it just made it even worse.


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## Awesome

Why block investigations into alleged terrorism charges? If Israel is clean, it will come out as so.


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## Jigs

*Turkey pushes for impartial inquiry into Israeli actions*

Turkey pushes for impartial inquiry into Israeli actions - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Wednesday, June 2, 2010
ANKARA - H&#252;rriyet Daily News
Dismissing the prospects for an Israeli probe into Monday&#8217;s deaths on a Gaza aid flotilla, Turkey has been pressing the international community to establish an impartial, independent commission to investigate the incident.

*&#8220;We want a detailed investigation by the United Nations into the Israeli actions,&#8221; Foreign Minister Ahmet Davuto&#287;lu told a press conference in Ankara on Wednesday upon his return from the United States.
*
The foreign minister ruled out any Israeli probe into the incident, saying the idea was unacceptable.

*&#8220;This cannot be accepted by our side. The attack occurred on international waters,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Could we expect anything from an investigation launched by a country that is a culprit? It is Israel&#8217;s actions that need to be investigated.&#8221;
*
The U.N. Security Council convened an emergency session in response to a call from Turkey, a non-permanent member of the council, in the wake of the Israeli offensive. Davuto&#287;lu said he would begin talking Thursday with U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon about setting up an independent commission.

Ankara is also expected to press for legal action to secure compensation for the families of the victims killed on the aid vessel Mavi Marmara.

An official U.N. statement supporting an independent commission was satisfactory from Turkey&#8217;s perspective, according to diplomatic sources, who said Turkey first wants to see condemnation of Israel and secondly an impartial inquiry made into what happened at sea. The sources said the probe being launched by an Israeli Defense Forces task force would not give the needed results.

Davuto&#287;lu held a meeting lasting nearly three hours with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Washington, D.C., on Tuesday and told her that Turkey would cut all ties with Israel unless all detained Turks were returned. Washington conveyed Ankara&#8217;s ultimatum to Israel, the H&#252;rriyet Daily News has learned from diplomatic sources.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo&#287;an spoke by phone with U.S. President Barack Obama, who affirmed the United States&#8217; position &#8220;in support of a credible, impartial and transparent investigation of the facts surrounding this tragedy,&#8221; according to a White House statement.

Though Turkey was not very satisfied with the statements initially made by the White House, Davuto&#287;lu said, its subsequent endorsement of the U.N. statement, which he said clearly condemned the Israeli aggression, was important.

*&#8220;We are satisfied with the American support. I am grateful for the efforts of Secretary Clinton,&#8221; the Turkish foreign minister said. &#8220;That is important for us to overcome this issue.&#8221;*

Davuto&#287;lu said two seriously injured Turkish citizens would remain in Israeli hospitals with a Turkish doctor.

Turkey dispatched six airplanes to Israel to ensure the safe return of Turkish citizens and foreigners on the ship; three are ambulance airplanes, two belong to the Turkish Armed Forces and the remaining one belongs to the Health Ministry.

Two deputies from the ruling party, H&#252;seyin Tanr&#305;verdi and Zeyid Aslan, went to Israel along with Prime Ministry advisor Nabi Avc&#305; and Foreign Ministry Deputy Undersecretary Halit &#199;evik to help with the release of the passengers.

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## Abu Basit

TruthSeeker said:


> Sticks and stones can break my bones,
> 
> but WORDS will never hurt me ........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (The USA is not a terrorist state. Yelling it does not make it so.  )



America is the biggest terrorist state in the world and it just proved it by fully supporting Israeli terrorists.


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## under cover

mjnaushad said:


> *How many times do we need to clearify the ship was in international waters. ISRAEL HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHECK THAT BOAT IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS IT WAS NOT IN ISRAELI WATERS.
> 
> And there was need of resistance because they were attacked in international waters.....AN ACT OF WAR*



*
ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO INSPECT SHIPS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS PROVIDED NAVAL BLOCKADE EXISTS. ISRAELS ACTION WAS LEGITIMATE AS PER INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS. CHECK YOUR FACTS FIRST.

ISRAEL DID NOTHING ILLEGAL. HOWEVER, FACED UPON RESISTIVE ASSAULT, THEY USED DISPROPORTIONATE FORCE WHICH CAN BE SAD AND REGRETTABLE.
*

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## TaimiKhan

under cover said:


> *
> ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO INSPECT SHIPS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS PROVIDED NAVAL BLOCKADE EXISTS. ISRAELS ACTION WAS LEGITIMATE AS PER INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS. CHECK YOUR FACTS FIRST.
> 
> ISRAEL DID NOTHING ILLEGAL. HOWEVER, FACED UPON RESISTIVE ASSAULT, THEY USED DISPROPORTIONATE FORCE WHICH CAN BE SAD AND REGRETTABLE.
> *



There was no naval blockade in the international waters, nor was there any sanctioned by the UN. Israel had the right to inspect whatever is sailing in their territorial waters, which the aid flotilla was not doing. 

So what Israel did was not legitimate and it was illegal. They killed innocent people point blank and executed them knowingly.


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## pkd

Well here the lines are very clear, India and Israel are among the only few 
countries that resort to "State Terrorism" to perpetuate their artificial borders.
So whenever you will find Israel doing such acts, Indians will natuarlly jump into 
that, closing their eyes and asking for endless proves after proves. 
Violating UN resolutions , massive human right violations, massacres of innocent people are the hallmarks of both.


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## Marxist

*Aid activists may have Al-Qaeda link: Israel *

JERUSALEM- Israel has said about 40 of the activists arrested in the attack on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla may have had links to Al-Qaeda.

According to the Israeli defence forces (IDF), a special meeting of the security cabinet late Tuesday heard that a group of 40 people on board the Mavi Marmara ship with no identification papers belonged to Al Qaeda.

&#8221;The terrorists were equipped with bullet proof vests, night-vision goggles, and weapons. On board the Mavi Marmara ship that arrived as part of the flotilla to Gaza was a group of about 40 people with no identification papers, who are mercenaries belonging to the Al Qaeda terror organisation,&#8221; the IDF said on its website.

As international debate continues over Israel&#8217;s deadly raid on the humanitarian vessels, the IDF released a number of videos to show the military&#8217;s version of the attack during which soldiers shot and killed nine international activists bound for the Gaza Strip.

One video, put up Wednesday on several websites including the site of Israeli daily Haaretz, shows passengers on the Mavi Marmara hurling stun grenades and plates and spraying water at the commandos as they lowered themselves onto the ship.

The activists are also seen armed with iron bars and batons which they reportedly used against the soldiers.

Aid activists may have Al-Qaeda link: Israel


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## under cover

TaimiKhan said:


> *There was no naval blockade in the international waters, *




Naval blocade for ships in sea limits of gaza, or vessels in international waters moving towards gaza are indeed subject to naval blocade by Israel. Israel has thye right to intercept ships destined towards gaza in accordance to international war conventions.

The Hindu : News / International : Defiant Israel vows to continue Gaza blockade


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## TaimiKhan

under cover said:


> Naval blocade for ships in sea limits of gaza, or vessels in international waters moving towards gaza are indeed subject to naval blocade by Israel. Israel has thye right to intercept ships destined towards gaza in accordance to international war conventions.
> 
> The Hindu : News / International : Defiant Israel vows to continue Gaza blockade



Yes they should do it, but in their own waters. 

In international waters, only UN sanctioned ones are allowed. 

The blockade is Israel's own, not sanctioned by UN, under which then international waters also come into place. 

If the ships were moving towards Gaza, then when they would have entered the Israeli waters, they should have done their action. 

But in the international waters, Israel had no right. 

And don't give the Indian news source, just like you guys, the Indian media has also to show its faithfulness to Israel beside the US.

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## EyelessInGaza

under cover said:


> *
> ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO INSPECT SHIPS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS PROVIDED NAVAL BLOCKADE EXISTS. ISRAELS ACTION WAS LEGITIMATE AS PER INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS. CHECK YOUR FACTS FIRST.
> 
> ISRAEL DID NOTHING ILLEGAL. HOWEVER, FACED UPON RESISTIVE ASSAULT, THEY USED DISPROPORTIONATE FORCE WHICH CAN BE SAD AND REGRETTABLE.
> *



Some time ago a famous terrorist led hundreds of people on a raid of a government establishment. 

He was clearly and explicitly breaking the law.

The government asked him NOT to do it, NOT to commit a crime.

But the terrorist went ahead anyway. Marched his gullible followers right up to the gates of the establishment. 

The government naturally had the RIGHT to take restrictive measures against these lawless people. 

So it happened that in 1930 that the British government savagely clubbed the living daylights out of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi's followers, in an event rightly famous and glorified in our history books as The Salt Satyagraha, or The Dandi March.

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## Tiger Prowling

Talat Hussain is released by israel and is in jordan, awaiting flight to pakistan.


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## Marxist

EyelessInGaza said:


> Some time ago a famous terrorist led hundreds of people on a raid of a government establishment.
> 
> He was clearly and explicitly breaking the law.
> 
> The government asked him NOT to do it, NOT to commit a crime.
> 
> But the terrorist went ahead anyway. Marched his gullible followers right up to the gates of the establishment.
> 
> The government naturally had the RIGHT to take restrictive measures against these lawless people.
> 
> So it happened that in 1930 that the British government savagely clubbed the living daylights out of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi's followers, in an event rightly famous and glorified in our history books as The Salt Satyagraha, or The Dandi March.



I dont hate Israelis but I dont wish to defend them on this issue,because then It will be indirectly defending Gen.Dyer for Jalianwalabagh incident.

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## Jigs

*Who the hell does Israel think she is?*

Who the hell does Israel think she is? - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Tuesday, June 1, 2010
MUSTAFA AKYOL

Two days ago, Israeli forces attacked a humanitarian aid flotilla in international waters. The whole purpose of the activists on the raided Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, and several others around it, were to bring aid and supplies, including playgrounds for children, to Gaza. They paid the price by being the targets of Israeli machine guns.

At least 10 unarmed civilians, most of whom are Turks, were killed. Dozens of others were injured.

There is no need to mince words in the face of this atrocity: Israel has committed piracy, barbarism and state terrorism.

*Beyond doing all these shamelessly, Israeli spokesmen have also lied shamelessly. One of them, Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon, was doing exactly that when he portrayed the ship, and the whole aid flotilla, as full of people well-known for their ties with global Jihad, Al-Qaeda and Hamas.
*
Damned lies

In fact, the 600 or so activists in the flotilla were a diverse group from 32 countries and many faiths. They included Christian priests and secular humanists. They included Mairead Corrigan-Maguire, the 85-year-old Nobel peace laureate from North Ireland, and Hedy Epstein, a Holocaust survivor. They included children, including a 1-year-old.

Ayalon was also lying when he said, we found weapons that were prepared in advance and used against our forces. The Turkish authorities had checked the ships thoroughly before their departure, and there were simply no firearms on board. The only weapons that can be spoken of were the wooden or metal sticks that some of the activists had in their hands, apparently taken from the chairs or other ordinary materials on the vessels.

*Yesterday, Israel released the photos of some other weapons on board, which were just knives taken from the ships kitchen.*

The video footage we have seen on TV actually gives a sense of what happened: Israeli commandos raided the ships at dawn, sliding down from helicopters via ropes with machine guns in their hands. Some of the activists on board took this as an assault on their ship, which was, to repeat, in international, not Israeli, waters. (How could they take it otherwise?) Then they tried to resist the commandos with the sticks in their hands. The soldiers, in return, fired on the activists, killing at least 10 people and injuring dozens.

From the Israeli point of view, everything is perfectly fine here: They have a policy of blockading Gaza, and those who defy it have to face the consequences.

The question is why in the world do people have to obey Israels dictates and recognize its inhumane blockade on Gaza?

Who the hell is Israel, in other words, to force 1.5 million people to live in an open-air prison for years?

The answer from Israel is that Hamas fires rockets from Gaza. Well, the last time those rockets were flying in the air, Israel was also firing rockets (and phosphorus bombs) into Gaza, killing a hundred times more civilians than Hamas did. According to a United Nations report, the actions of both sides equally amounted to war crimes.

So, if the war crimes on the Palestinian side legitimize a collective punishment of the Palestinian people, should the war crimes on the Israeli side legitimize a collective punishment of the Israeli people?

In other words, should we put a blockade on Israel as well, so that it wont be able to kill more children in Gaza? And should we attack the civilian ships that aim to violate that blockade?

Right or might?

There is even a more fundamental question here, relating to the elephant in the Middle Eastern room: Who the hell is Israel to occupy the West Bank and East Jerusalem since 1967, and to systematically steal these territories by building illegal settlements?

And how can she expect the Palestinians, and other nations like us, the Turks, to bow down to this unabashed theft of land?

*When I asked that question to an Israeli hawk some years ago, I received a very revealing response: Might, he said, makes right.*

Well, that might be a popular belief in Tel Aviv and Occupied Jerusalem, but not here in Istanbul. In fact our creed tells us that the exact opposite is true: Right, sooner or later, makes might.

The hundreds of heroes who sailed to Gaza last weekend had this faith in their hearts. Here in Turkey, 70 million more stand by them. We mourn for our fallen, but also know that they did not die in vain. Their sacrifice unveiled to the world not just the suffering of the innocents in the Gaza ghetto, but also the brutality of the rogue state that imposes it.

Read my lips: This spirit is really not going to die. We Turks will continue to stand for what is right, regardless of Israels might. None of her lobbying, bullying or killing is going to change that.

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## EyelessInGaza

Marxist said:


> I dont hate Israelis but I dont wish to defend them on this issue,because then It will be indirectly defending Gen.Dyer for Jalianwalabagh incident.



Yeah, I thought of that example as well.


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## Ahmad

Agni 5 said:


> Unless you search you don't know what is there in the ship. as I said mumbai attacker come on fishing boat..



yes, but not to invade it with full blown war style and land commondos.


----------



## Marxist

*Biden backs Israel's right to stop Gaza-bound ships*

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Vice President Joe Biden on Wednesday backed Israel's right to board ships bound for Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling, but said Washington remained concerned about the plight of Palestinians there.

Israeli commandos boarded a flotilla of six aid vessels trying to break Israel's three-year-old naval blockade of the Palestinian enclave on Monday. Nine activists were killed in the assault and dozens injured, including some commandos.

The United States has trod carefully in its response to the deadly raid and has not joined the international condemnation of Israel's use of force to stop the ships after its commandos were attacked as they rappelled down from helicopters.

"Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest," Biden said in an interview on PBS's "Charlie Rose" show, while reiterating the Obama administration's support for a transparent, impartial investigation of what happened.

The aim of the Israeli commando operation had been to seize control of the ships and escort them to Israel's Ashdod port. From there, Israeli authorities had promised to transfer the seized cargo to Hamas-controlled Gaza.

"They (Israel) have said, 'Here you go. You're in the Mediterranean. This ship -- if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we'll get the stuff into Gaza." So what's the big deal here?" Biden said.

"What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza?" he asked.

"Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight -- 3,000 rockets on my people,'" he said, referring to Hamas, the Islamist movement which rejects interim peace terms with Israel and has regularly fired rockets into the Jewish state.

PRESSURING, CAJOLING

But Biden said the United States also needed to "put as much pressure and as much cajoling on Israel as we can" to allow in aid shipments such as building materials.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu insisted on Wednesday the blockade was necessary to keep Hamas from getting weapons. The United Nations says the blockade has led to a humanitarian crisis among the territory's 1.5 million people.

International anger over the flotilla attack has created a tough balancing act for the United States, Israel's biggest ally, as it tries to relaunch the Middle East peace process. President Barack Obama must also be mindful that the Jewish state is popular with American lawmakers and voters.

Biden said the United States supported an Israeli investigation of the incident with international involvement, similar to South Korea's recent probe into the torpedoing of one of its warships.

The vice president also played down any suggestion of a rift between Israel and the United States. Ties between the Obama administration and Netanyahu have been strained over Israeli settlement expansion on occupied land.

"Do we have disagreements on the tactical way in which this (Israeli) government acts and some of the comments that some of the ministers of this government, the things that they say ... that we think are counter-productive, yeah, but we always have," Biden said.

But no U.S. administration in history "has been as up-front and supportive of Israel's security as this administration," he added.

Netanyahu had been due to meet Obama for talks in Washington this week but flew home from Canada to deal with the diplomatic fallout from the commando raid. The visit had been billed as an attempt to ease tensions between the two allies.

Biden backs Israel's right to stop Gaza-bound ships


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## under cover

TaimiKhan said:


> And don't give the Indian news source, *just like you guys*, the Indian media has also to show its faithfulness to Israel beside the US.




Keep the discussion to the topic please.


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## Marxist

Just Check this Image


----------



## Ahmad

Brotherhood said:


> *After Flotilla Raid, U.S. Is Torn Between Allies*
> By MARK LANDLER
> Published: June 1, 2010
> 
> WASHINGTON  Struggling to navigate a bitter split between two important allies, the Obama administration on Tuesday tried to placate an outraged Turkish government while refusing to condemn Israel for its deadly raid on a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza.
> 
> President Obama telephoned Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of *Turkey to express his deep condolences for the deaths of Turkish citizens in clashes with Israeli soldiers on the ship*, the White House said. He told Mr. Erdogan that the *United States was pushing Israel to return their bodies, as well as 300 Turks *who were taken from the ship and being held in Israel.



i salute the american president for his bravery when it came to israel this time. such a brave move.


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## TaimiKhan

under cover said:


> Keep the discussion to the topic please.



It is on topic, don't try to be over smart and tell me what to do. 

I have more brains then you and can distinguish what is right and what is wrong, not like you to support killers.

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## Ahmad

Solomon2 said:


> "my anger was because of the issue of palestine and israel."
> 
> Three people are standing, riding in a bus, when the driver suddenly hits the brakes. Immediately they hit the floor, one on top of the other.
> 
> The person on the bottom hits the person who fell on top of him.
> 
> The second person protests, "Don't blame me, blame inertia!"
> 
> The first person replies, "O.K., I'll hit him, too!" - and slugs the person who fell on top.
> 
> *
> 
> Doesn't make much sense, does it?



what you said does not make any sense. if america would have been impartial, israel wouldnt have bullied the others and kill them. whenever they commit any crime, it is your country to veto every single resolution(not sure about the right word) against israel, you give them weaponry to kill the innocent, you back them all the way to kill people, when it comes to foreign policy especially the middle east, you guys are nothing but hypocrates and part of the problem, perpahs your politicians dont have any other choice, the AIPAK and other zionist powerful machinery would punish them severerly if they disobey them.


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## mjnaushad

Marxist said:


> Just Check this Image


Dont people have tools in their cars in case of emergency. So you people think they wont have a single tool on such large ship. Bullet proof vest...Jeez even journalist wear them before going into territory where there is danger of gunshots. You call these weapons. With these they were going to defeat markeva??

*Ohh i just read it...The Picture was taken 4 years ago....*

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## Aslan

Viva Palestina founder George Galloway released the following statement today:

"Israel has massacred unarmed peace activists aboard a flotilla taking emergency aid to the besieged Palestinian people in Gaza. This is a watershed that will change the perception of the world, as Sharpeville and Soweto did to the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

"It unmasks Israel which no-one can now consider a member of the 'international community' but is rather a rogue state, a pariah state.

"The embargo and blockade of Gaza must be brought to an end. This has been underwritten by the United States, by Britain and the European Union, but this has got to end now."

George Galloway


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## Aslan

mjnaushad said:


> Dont people have tools in their cars in case of emergency. So you people think they wont have a single tool on such large ship. Bullet proof vest...Jeez even journalist wear them before going into territory where there is danger of gunshots. You call these weapons. With these they were going to defeat markeva??



Sir ji time and time again we have seen that these cowardly jews have shot kids, and I mean it when I say kids not more then 4 feet in height (just to explain that they didnt even look like adults) for throwing stones, and at the suspicion of carrying arms. Well these were still adults.


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## Marxist

*Israel&#8217;s naval blockade pitches and rolls with the Law of the Sea *

Reactions to the Israeli seizure of the Gaza-bound flotilla have shared two traits: They have virtually all invoked international law, and they have virtually all been marked more by their rhetorical excess than their knowledge of international law.

Israel&#8217;s critics have levelled the phrases &#8220;war crimes&#8221; and &#8220;piracy,&#8221; while its supporters have invoked the spectre of &#8220;terrorism&#8221; and &#8220;weapons of mass destruction.&#8221; But when it comes to the Law of the Sea, they may all be out to sea. While much of the international law that gets tossed around at the United Nations is up for ideological grabs, the rules of engagement at sea are among the few islands of stability. It therefore behooves us to have a look at the accepted law before going overboard on politicized interpretation.

Israel and Hamas are in a state of armed conflict. That much is clear to everyone who has looked at the situation, from the General Assembly to the Human Rights Council in its Goldstone Report, which has stressed the need to conform to the laws of war. Accordingly, the accusation of piracy is inapt, since under both customary law and Article 101 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea that applies only to acts done for private gain. Israel&#8217;s acts must be analyzed in terms of the law of naval warfare.

A blockade of an enemy&#8217;s coast is an established military tactic. It is recognized as a means at the Security Council&#8217;s disposal under Article 42 of the UN Charter where collective action is authorized. Likewise, as made clear in Article 539 of the Canadian Forces manual Counter-Insurgency Operations, it is an action that one belligerent can potentially impose on another, provided that the accepted conditions for the blockade are met.

The law regulating force at sea is found in several sources updating the eight conventions on the law of naval warfare adopted at the Second International Peace Conference at The Hague in 1907. These include the U.S. Naval Handbook, an equivalent U.K. publication, and Germany&#8217;s 1992 manual, Humanitarian Law in Armed Conflicts. A consolidated set of rules was issued in 1994 by the San Remo Institute of International Law in co-operation with the International Committee of the Red Cross and several national humanitarian law societies, including Canada&#8217;s.

A naval blockade is defined in Article 7.71 of the U.S. Naval Handbook as &#8220;a belligerent operation to prevent vessels and/or aircraft of all nations, enemy as well as neutral, from entering or exiting specified ports, airfields, or coastal areas belonging to, occupied by, or under the control of an enemy nation.&#8221; It is designed to stop ships from crossing a cordon separating the enemy&#8217;s coast from the high seas. It is therefore often enforced in what would otherwise be international waters approaching, but not necessarily inside, the territorial sea of the blockaded party.

The San Remo conference set the specific rules for implementing a blockade. It must be publicly declared and notification sent to all states whose vessels are likely to be nearby. Further, the blockade must be effective. International law permits no fictitious blockade designed to frighten away third-party ships.

The San Remo rules also specify that a blockade be applied with impartiality to all states whose flagged ships enter the blockaded area. It must be conducted in a way that does not block access to neighbouring states and their ports.

A maritime blockade is for security purposes only, and must allow humanitarian assistance to the civilian population. Since the ships sailing for Gaza were on a declared humanitarian mission, those on board had the right to expect that any humanitarian goods would ultimately find their way to their intended recipients. On the other hand, having announced its blockade, Israel had no obligation to take the ships&#8217; crew at their word as to the nature of the cargo. The blockading party has the right to fashion the arrangements, including search at a nearby port, under which passage of humanitarian goods is permitted. San Remo specifies that this inspection should include supervision by a neutral party to prevent the unwarranted seizure of humanitarian supplies and the abuse of humanitarian assistance by the blockaded party.

Finally, the rule of proportionate force, applicable to all armed conflict, applies equally to a naval blockade. Blockading navies are obliged to arrest a ship rather than simply fire on it, and once its soldiers are on board an arrested ship their actions must be proportionate to the threat that they meet. While Israel appears to have met the other criteria eliminating a macro offence, here the facts will have to be gathered from witnesses and videos to determine what level of force was truly needed at the spot where the paintballs met the hammers.

We may still have to swim through an ocean of polemics, but once the legal background is set out, the Law of the Sea becomes far more cut and dry.

Ed Morgan is a professor of international law at the University of Toronto.

Israel&rsquo;s naval blockade pitches and rolls with the Law of the Sea - The Globe and Mail


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## Metallic




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## Metallic




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## TaimiKhan

Metallic said:


> YouTube - Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers





Metallic said:


> YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers



Aaahhh, the Jewish media or its supporters now launching their own face saving campaign to show the world that they were fighting terrorists.

Well no matter what they show, Israel was the intruder, the pirates and the killers and shot people point blank and *executed* them. 

Israeli soldiers are the killers and aggressors, well that i believe is not necessary to be told, as the whole world knows how they have massacred people inside their homes and in custody or anywhere they could find them.

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## under cover

TaimiKhan said:


> I have more brains then you and can distinguish what is right and what is wrong, *not like you to support killers*.



This is the second time you are targetting individual. I do not subscribe to your line of thinking.

First you bring Indian media and "people like me" into discussion unnecessarily and now showing off your "more brains". 

Target the POVs not individuals.

Guess whome should I report such things to??


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## Aslan




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## kimmo love

but way all muslim country do somthing for that


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## Hussein

Metallic said:


> YouTube - Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers


to attack?
or to defend? any fire weapon? no when you stop this propaganda?


Metallic said:


> YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers


lol there is no boat with kitchen knifes

it is so ridiculous.
even in Israel they disagree in their newspapers about this but still they are people here who are so much anti pakistani anti muslims .. that they need to find an excuse to what they believe to be the ennemy of their ennemies

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## Tiger Awan

Metallic said:


> YouTube - Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers





Metallic said:


> YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers



Lolz

with the help of these weapons i think hamas can wipe out israel in one day. Hmmm. Now got the reason why israeal did this


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## P.kid

ffs. stop bum licking the israeli's. why do the people justify there actions...



> Paveen Yaqub, from Manchester, was on board the Mavi Marmara, on which nine people were killed when it was stormed by Israeli commandos on Monday.
> 
> She said she was later kicked and abused by two Israeli policemen. *"They were kicking my legs to make me fall and mocking me in Hebrew," she said. "They were trying to take trophy pictures with me and they liked laughing in my face.*
> 
> "They also searched me but I won't go into that. *They took pleasure in humiliating us." *
> Speaking at Istanbul Airport, where planes full of hundreds of deportees landed on Thursday morning, she said the experience had been "a nightmare".
> 
> *"We were terrorized for the last few days by the Israeli authorities,"* she said, visibly shaken and holding back tears. "It was an insane situation. I'm exhausted. I haven't slept for days. I was on hunger strike for the last few hours."
> 
> Ms Yaqub said that the Israeli authorities had tried to *force her to sign a document written in Hebrew, but she refused*.



Do you still support israeli's actions after what this witness has said?

Source: Gaza flotilla attack: British activists tell of abuse by Israelis - Telegraph

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## Kompromat

Metallic said:


> YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers



Weapons of Mass destruction


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## Dr.Evil

Some members have a tendency to show off their so called superior intellect and they stoop down to any level of name calling.

Isn't that against this forum rules.

Probably some members are more equal than others.

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## Kompromat

*Australia wide protests to condemn Israel on Gaza aid attack*







Adrienne Francis

Last Updated: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 02:00:00 +1000

Several thousand people have taken to city streets across Australia to condemn the attack on the aid convoy to Gaza and to call on the government to take tougher action against Israel.






About a thousand people took to Sydney's streets causing peak hour traffic chaos.

"When we heard people have been killed we were appalled. People are very upset," said rally organiser Jennifer Killen.

Hundreds gathered in Melbourne while there was a candlelit vigil outside the Israeli embassy in Canberra where former Uniting Church President Gregor Henderson addressed the crowd. 

"This action exposes the dreadful situation of an occupation that has just been going on for far too many years," he said.

Another protest was held in Perth and more are planned around the country for later this week.

Australian groups

Meanwhile, Palestinian families, church groups, aid agencies and the Greens have vowed to continue protesting in Canberra against Israel's attack on the aid ships.

Abdul Ayhmat fled Gaza, 55 years old, fled Gaza for Canberra three years ago. 

He describes his former life as similar to prison. 

He says Australia's Palestinian community is outraged by the Israeli attack on the aid flotilla.

"We feel very sad and angry. It is the behaviour of criminals, not the behaviour of a modern country." 

He says Australia's Palestinian community are calling for the Prime Minister to take a tougher stance against Israel.

"We are calling on our Prime Minister here to do more. We are expecting Australian Government to join those countries who support lifting the siege upon Gaza and to speak loudly on this."

ABC Radio Australia News:Stories:protests around Australia condemn Gaza aid attack


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## Marxist

*Lieberman: We don't fear probe*

Israel should have no concerns about forming an internal inquiry committee, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Thursday on Israel Radio, &#8220;we have nothing to hide.&#8221;

&#8220;We have excellent jurists, such as Meir Shamgar, Aharon Barak, Amnon Rubinstein &#8211; one of whom will be willing to take it on himself, and if they want to include an international member of some sort in their committee &#8211; that&#8217;s alright too,&#8221; Lieberman said in the interview with Israel Radio.

The foreign minister continued to say that the majority of Israeli officials oppose an international inquiry, detailing that Israel is capable enough to investigate the case on its own. "We don't need a guardian," he said.

"We need to investigate our intelligence failures, as well as our decision making process," Lieberman continued.

Lieberman: All responsibility falls on Turkey

The foreign minister also discussed Israel's cooling relations with Turkey, and asserted that the shift in direction is not Israel's fault.

"All the changes that have taken place were changes that occurred within Turkey's society," Lieberman said.

"We have an obsessive need to always take the blame- but it just isn't true. [The changes] are not coming from our relationship with Turkey, they are coming from changes within Turkey," he asserted.

"All responsibility, from the beginning to the end, falls on Turkey," Lieberman said.

We will not let the Rachel Corrie ship reach Gaza banks

In the interview with Army Radio, Lieberman also underlined Israel's position on the additional aid ships approaching Gaza. "We must make sure that Rachel Corrie will not reach the banks of Gaza."

"We are a sovereign country, and we will not let anyone hurt our sovereignty," he said.

Lieberman: We don't fear probe


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## Xeric

Metallic said:


> YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers





Metallic said:


> YouTube - Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers



This is called self defence.

Sling shots against Uzi.

Rods against Machine Guns.

'Metal objects' against live ammo.

We know that dude who uploaded the vid on YT was an idiot (due to the reasons mentioned in the below quoted posts) so please dont make us judge your intellect by posting them here.

And i also think you (deliberately) missed the following posts on this thread and still resorted to repetitive and already rubbished out arguments:


xeric said:


> Sten grenades, weapons..wow!
> 
> What a Jihadi aid workers!
> 
> Guess what, they attack israeli commandos (one of the best in the world) with kinves and clubs..how stupid.
> 
> i thought that the aid workers might have nuked them that warranted such a brutal attack from the isrealis that killed 20 people....
> 
> The poster of this vid at YT is not only stupid but also dumb!





xeric said:


> This is what the discription of the video says:
> 
> *The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose.
> 
> As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, as well as live fire.*
> 
> Well guess what, use of live fire is not an authentic way of 'riot' controlling.
> 
> Rubber bullets, smoke dispensers, gas, shooting at legs etc are a few things they taught us when we were being trained, never knew the isrealis were unveiling a newer tactics for mob/riot control.
> 
> When would this kinda tactics reach books and Field Manuals of other contemporary armies? Waiting anxiously!





xeric said:


> Stupid _terrorists_, they instigated and then tried to counter the israeli commandos with knives, _ranch panas_ and hammers...
> 
> (Gosh! Where did all the AKs and RPGs of the black market - an perennial supply to terrorists all over the world - gone?)
> 
> May be they were trying to practice some Krav Maga with the commandos.
> 
> But oops, isnt Krav Maga was developed in Israel...?? Wondering

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## Kompromat

*Thousands protest against Israeli raid

Updated Tue Jun 1, 2010 9:02am AEST*




> Greek clashes: protesters throw stones at police near the Israeli embassy in Athens (Reuters: John Kolesidis)




Thousands of demonstrators have taken to the streets in Europe and the Middle East to protest against the Israeli storming of a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, which left nine activists dead.

In Athens, about 3,500 protesters rallied outside the Israeli embassy, chanting "hands off Gaza" and "free Palestine".

Several hundreds clashed with police, throwing chunks of marble, stones and bottles. Police fired teargas to disperse them.

"Demonstrators set barricades on fire, police chased them; there were a lot of stones and teargas and a few people had blood on their heads," a witness said, adding he saw four people injured. Police said they detained five protesters.

The Israeli action sparked street protests and government ire in Turkey, long Israel's lone Muslim ally in the region, and thousands of followers of an anti-US cleric took to the streets in Baghdad.

Across Egypt, which in 1979 became the first Arab state to sign a peace treaty with Israel, up to 8,000 Egyptians protested, demanding the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador in Cairo and calling on the government to open its Rafah borders with Gaza.

The protests were organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's biggest opposition group, which is affiliated to Hamas, the Islamist group that took control of the Gaza strip in 2007. Two Brotherhood parliamentarians were on board the convoy ships.

"Hamas, you are the cannon and the Brotherhood is your voice," chanted thousands of Egyptians protesting in Cairo.

The Brotherhood routinely organises protests demanding the lifting of the Israeli blockade on Gaza.

Police used teargas in Paris when about 2,000 people demonstrated near the Israeli embassy, hurling stones, waving Palestinian and Turkish flags and brandishing banners saying "long live free Palestine" and "criminal Israel".

Small, peaceful anti-Israel demonstrations were held in Rome and other Italian cities.

"The Italian government needs to immediately call back its ambassador from Israel as other countries in Europe have done," said Paolo Cento, a left-wing politician among the demonstrators.

"This is extremely serious and has no precedent whatsoever in the history of international diplomacy."

*Swedish police said more than 5,000 protesters marched from a central Stockholm square towards the Israeli embassy, carrying banners and shouting slogans.

Chanting "boycott Israel", they held banners saying "free Gaza", "put Israel on trial", "Israel to the Hague" and "Gaza bleeds"*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/01/2914743.htm


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## Ahmad

> The foreign minister continued to say that the majority of Israeli officials oppose an international inquiry,



yes, and NK should also appoint its own investigating panel to investigate the sunken ship of SK.


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## cabatli_53

Cyber Attack...

Likut webpage









Israeli Navy's website:

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## Ahmad

^^ i cant see it, what has happend?


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## cabatli_53

And Israeli Officials blocked Turkish IPs in attempt to stop the Turkish hackers.

The hackers say they will continue to hack official and unoffocial Israeli sites.


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## cabatli_53

Mossad's webpage has also been closed to enter by Turk hackers...

The lists of websites hacked by Turkish hackers...

http://ekonomi.haberturk.com/teknoloji/haber/519945-mossada-agir-darbe-flas

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## mjnaushad

Metallic said:


> YouTube - Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used by Activists Against IDF Soldiers


These are really dangerous weapons. Tell me how many of them are banned in Israel or any country. Which of these weapons require govt permission to have in your house hold inventory. Forget all other countries. Just tell me Israel.

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## FreekiN

Holy ****. Turkish hackers are beastly.

fruckin' hacked mossad.


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## Fighter488

*Israel's defenders mobilize, threaten​*
By Jim Lobe 

*WASHINGTON *- Faced with what the Wall Street Journal calls "one of Israel's worst international relations disasters in years", the right-wing leadership of the so-called "Israel Lobby" has been pulling out all the stops to defend the Jewish state against global outrage over its deadly seizure of a Gaza-bound vessel in international waters carrying humanitarian supplies early on Monday morning. 

Its biggest concern for now is to prevent the administration of US President Barack Obama from distancing itself in any way - let alone joining in the almost universal condemnation - from the military operation in which at least nine civilian passengers of the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara were killed by Israeli commandos. 

"As the international community is engaged in a biased rush to judgment against Israel and a diplomatic lynching, now is the time 
for the United States to firmly stand with the Jewish state and its people," said Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League, on Wednesday. 

"The US must show the world that it not only supports Israel's right to defend its borders and citizens against terrorism, but that it supports Israel's right to protect itself from people who pretend to be 'peace activists', and parade under the guise of humanitarians while supporting Hamas and violently attacking Israeli military personnel," he added. 

Indeed, even after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's spokesman publicly thanked Washington for its efforts to "water down" a statement by the president of the United Nations Security Council issued early on Tuesday morning, hard-line neo-conservatives complained bitterly that Obama had betrayed its closest ally by not vetoing it. 

"So why did we agree to the presidential statement?" asked Elliott Abrams, former president George W Bush's top Middle Eastern aide, in an article entitled "Joining the Jackals". 

"The White House did not wish to stand with Israel against this mob [of Security Council members who condemned the Israeli attack] because it does not have a policy of solidarity with Israel," Abrams, who is now based at the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote for the neo-conservative Weeklystandard.com. "It would have been simple to stop the mob had the White House wanted to." (Emphasis in the original.) 

Some neo-conservatives, whose worldview is closely aligned to that of Netanyahu's Likud Party, even suggested that Obama's failure to unconditionally defend Israel in its hour of need could well make the Jewish state take even more aggressive action in the future. 

*"If Obama decides it is in America's interest to make an example of Israel after the Gaza flotilla incident in order to win goodwill in Cairo, Beirut, Tehran and Ankara," warned Michael Rubin of the American Enterprise Institute, "then he must also recognize that the leadership in Jerusalem is going to conclude that it cannot trust the United States to safeguard its security, and that therefore it must take matters into its own hands on any number of issues, not the least of which is Iran's nuclear program." *

In effect, if the White House decides to come down hard on Israel now," he added in National Review Online, "it is the same as giving a green light for Israel to strike Iran." 

That threat was echoed in a remarkable column published by the neo-conservative Wall Street Journal on Tuesday in which the author, Ronen Bergman of Israel's Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, argued that the operation itself was "irresponsible" and evidence that a "siege mentality" - based on the belief that world opinion is irreversibly hostile to the Jewish state - had taken hold of the country and its governing elite. 

Citing Iran's nuclear program, Bergman argued that such an "unhealthy mindset" was "profoundly disturbing when the fatigued and isolated country itself has the means to strike pre-emptively and punishingly at its enemies, including in ways from which, realistically, there may be no return." 

While neo-conservatives were warning darkly about the geopolitical consequences for the administration of any distancing from Israel's position, the Lobby's leaders and their friends in US Congress focused more on defending Israel's version of the pre-dawn incident that took place on Monday some 100 kilometers off Gaza's coast. 

They insisted, among other things, that the Israeli commandos who carried out the operation, armed only with paintball rifles and handguns, acted in self-defense after coming under attack from passengers brandishing iron bars, knives and other crude weapons. 

"Israeli soldiers had every right to defend their lives against a lynch mob attacking them with knives and clubs," said Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the top Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. 

Based primarily on a short video distributed by the Israel Defense Forces, this version of events, including the weapons involved on both sides, has been called into question by the testimony of many of the 600 some passengers. After being towed to Israel and held incommunicado for some 24 hours, they were deported on Wednesday. 

It also failed to take into account the right of self-defense of those aboard a vessel that came under attack in international waters. "This is like a carjacker complaining to the police that the driver bashed him with a crowbar that was under the seat," noted M J Rosenberg, a Middle East analyst at Media Matters. 

Israel's defenders have also tried to focus media and public attention on what they have called the "terrorist-linked, radical Islamic" group that reportedly bought the Mavi Marmara, the Turkish-based Insani Yardim Vakfi, or IHH, and helped sponsor the flotilla of eight vessels that set out to breach Israel's three-year-old blockade of Gaza. 

According to a release put out on Monday by the powerful American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a declassified report by the Central Intelligence Agency after 9/11 named the IHH "as part of 15 organizations that employed members or otherwise facilitate the activities of terrorist groups - INCLUDING al-Qaeda". 

Another AIPAC release cited testimony by a "famed French counter-terrorism investigator" that the IHH had played "an important role" in the al-Qaeda Millenium [sic] bomb plot" that targeted Los Angeles International Airport. 

But, while the IHH appears to have played a role in recruiting fighters in the Bosnia and Chechnya conflicts in the mid-1990s when the US Central Intelligence Agency report was written, it currently carries out relief operations in more than 100 countries, including Haiti and a number of African countries, as well as in Gaza, the New York Times reported Tuesday. And, aside from an assortment of sticks and kitchen knives, no weapons were found aboard any of the ships seized by Israel. 

Similar talking points, however, were deployed by The Israel Project (TIP), another right-wing Zionist group that mobilized its members to write e-mails to lawmakers and media outlets in their area calling on them to stand by Israel. In the space of two hours on Tuesday afternoon, the Washington bureau of Inter Press Service received nearly 20 emails from TIP members in support of Israel's version of the incident. 

_Jim Lobe's blog on US foreign policy can be read at http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/. _
(Inter Press Service) 


Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs


----------



## Fighter488

*Israeli strike echoes in Pakistan​*
By *Syed Saleem Shahzad *

*ISLAMABAD *- Over the past few years the Palestinian issue, which has seen the rise of the fundamentalist Hamas in Gaza, has in many respects been downgraded from an international conflict into a complex local issue. 

Israels deadly attack on Monday on an unarmed Turkish aid ship trying to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza has overnight changed this, sparking protest rallies across the Muslim world. Even the biggest facilitator of the Gaza siege, Israel's ally Egypt, reacting to the protests, opened the Rafah border crossing into Gaza. 

The incident has also turned the spotlight on the United States, which ultimately might be the major loser, especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan. 

Hundreds of members of a pro-Iran Islamist group, the Imamia Students' Organization, marched through the streets of Pakistan's southern port city of Karachi on Tuesday in protest against the Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara. The protest was just one of several hundred staged in other parts of the country. 

The rally was supposed to take place in front of the Karachi Press Club. As the protesters made their way to the club a group of men suddenly started shouting inflammatory slogans. These included "La Sharqia La Gharbia Islamiya, Islamiya" (We neither believe in East nor in the West, we only believe in Islam), "Death to America, death to Israel" and "Allies of the Americans and Israel are traitors." 

At this point the marchers veered off towards the United States consulate and the protest turned violent as police tried to block the march. At least two dozen student activists were arrested and the remainder dispersed by water cannons. 

In Pakistani terms this was a relatively small incident with no deaths, but it is a sign of a fresh anti-American campaign in the country that could easily be replicated in other nations. 

The heightened temperature on the streets in Pakistan could not have come at a worse time. 

The government is under intense pressure from Washington to launch a massive military offensive in the North Waziristan tribal area, which the US recognizes as the crucial base for the Afghan resistance and the global headquarters of al-Qaeda. North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) troops in Afghanistan are also poised for a big offensive against Taliban strongholds in Kandahar province - a move that is highly unpopular with the local population. 

Even though Pakistan is termed a most important non-NATO ally in the war in Afghanistan, Islamabad does not have diplomatic relations with Israel. Three Pakistani citizens were on the Mavi Marmara and the incident, including Turkey's unequivocal condemnation of the attack, received widespread media coverage. 
International Islamic movements immediately showed up on the streets and formulated plans for demonstrations, including the Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, which after a high-level meeting in Lahore outlined a prolonged protest campaign. 

Former Afghan interim prime minister Ahmad Shah Ahmadzai told Asia Times Online from Kabul that sustained protests could also break out in Afghanistan. 

The Kandahar offensive, which was supposed to have been launched before April, is further delayed pending the fate of the operation in North Waziristan, first promised by the Pakistan army last year. 

Meanwhile, the Taliban's Operation Fateh (Operation Victory) is on schedule, having begun last month with the attack on a NATO convey in Kabul in which several senior officials were killed, followed by an attack on the massive Bagram air base outside Kabul and one on Kandahar air field. 

There have also been pitched battles at Logar air base and deadly assaults in Helmand, Farah and Kuduz. The Taliban captured the only pro-government district of Barge Matal in Nuristan province, including all government buildings. On Tuesday, NATO forces recaptured the district headquarters, but the Taliban still control the mountains and the nearby villages. 

The level of the insurgency is expected to increase during the summer months. In short, it is vital for NATO to dismember the Taliban's central command structures - the branch that controls the southeastern Afghan insurgency that is based in North Waziristan, and the southwestern branch based in Kandahar province. 

Now, with anti-Israeli and anti-US sentiment at a five-year high, mustering political support behind a pro-American operation in North Waziristan and a Kandahar offensive, already heavily opposed by local tribes, seems impossible. Any delay benefits the Taliban's Operation Fateh - which already has key strategic border towns in Khost, Paktia, Paktika, Kunar and Nangarhar in its sights. 

If the offensives do get off the ground, they will certainly stir already inflamed passions and further radicalize youth in Pakistan and Afghanistan - and there is no guarantee of their success. 

_Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief. He can be reached at saleem_shahzad2002@yahoo.com_ 

(Copyright 2010 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.) 


Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan


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## T-Faz

What a moronic bunch these neo conservatives are, US wants to fight exremists worldwide but it forgets the plethora of hate mongering and loony religious idiots it has in its own backyard.

Some of these guys are exactly like the taliban, the only difference is that they were born in a first world country and enjoy a better lifestyle which somehow makes them sane in the eyes of others.

Many of thes nuts beleive that it is their God given duty to protect Israel and assemble all the jews in Israel where Jesus will come back to punish them. According to them who so ever supports Israel will have good luck on its side. 

What a bunch of nutcases, these Americanibans need to be eliminated.

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## rameez ahmed

Waffen SS said:


> This fool Talat hussain would never go to helpless people in HUNZA VALLEY but is ready to make a trip to PALESTINE just because it is MORE GLAMOROUS and HEROIC.
> 
> What a hypocrite, instead of helping his own countrymen, he cares about others.
> 
> DISGUSTINGLY UNPATRIOTIC. These people enjoy every thing by virtue of our FATHERLAND but yet they shamelessly display their sympathies on others.
> 
> What does he think? Is Pakistan is some SWITZERLAND where all people are happy and don't need any help?



Talat Hussain is not a fool.. One man would have done no change in the reporting of Hunza lake incident.. If he was not their then other journalists were their to do his job while he prefered to go to Palestine.. 

I think , if you are saying so, then you should go to Hunza lake and help them.. but surely you won't .. you know why ? because every man can't be at many places at a time and when he is required at many places , he will decide what is more important.. 

He thought being the Part of the Activist is more important so that when he gets in Palestine, he could bring the voices of Innocents Palestinians in our country.. Thats all .. it was his own choice and he is not at all wrong in this...

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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal


----------



## Dr.Evil

rameez ahmed said:


> The Holy Prophet (SA) said"
> 
> "Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'
> 
> (sahih Bukhari)
> 
> 
> If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...
> 
> They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...
> 
> The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.
> 
> US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..
> 
> Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....
> 
> If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......
> 
> You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:
> 
> Abaut dajjal



How many times will you post the same material. Why dont you keep this predictions out.

Isn't fortune telling & Listening to it Haram in Islam.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rameez ahmed

Dr.Evil said:


> How many times will you post the same material. Why dont you keep this predictions out.
> 
> Isn't fortune telling & Listening to it Haram in Islam.



Firstly its for muslims and not for non muslims.. 

these are the saying of out Holy Prophet (SA) that are about to happen..... this is not the fortune telling.... he mentioned us the Signs that will show that the Emergence of Dajjal is near... 

with this the muslims will come to know that we are living in that age of which Prophet Muhammad (SA) Propehsized...

You can say it anything.. But a MUSLIM will atleast read what I have to say and try to get information in this regard because its an important part of our religion and all of the signs of emergence of Dajjal are proving true in today's world....


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## asq

EyelessInGaza said:


> Some time ago a famous terrorist led hundreds of people on a raid of a government establishment.
> 
> He was clearly and explicitly breaking the law.
> 
> The government asked him NOT to do it, NOT to commit a crime.
> 
> But the terrorist went ahead anyway. Marched his gullible followers right up to the gates of the establishment.
> 
> The government naturally had the RIGHT to take restrictive measures against these lawless people.
> 
> So it happened that in 1930 that the British government savagely clubbed the living daylights out of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi's followers, in an event rightly famous and glorified in our history books as The Salt Satyagraha, or The Dandi March.



so the moral of the story is...............
that some countries in 2010 still act like those living in dark ages.


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## vishal_gutsy11

*The Gaza Flotillas Skirmish At Sea Diverted Attention From Hezbollahs Weapons Imports
*

Dr. Walid Phares
At first glance, the takeover by the Israeli Navy of the humanitarian flotilla heading towards Gaza is just one more of the disputed crises between Israel and its foes. As in all previous incidents, the spiral of accusations will eventually reach bottom. While media attention will highlight the tactical events  seizure of the ships, rules of engagement, who fired first, the legal location of the incident and the other dramatic details  the rapidly expanding debate will soon reach the strategic intent of the flotilla. After all the governments involved issue their condemnations and warnings in all directions, after the UN conferences and issues a statement and international forums mobilize to indict their predictably targeted foe  in this case Israel  the question unavoidably will be: why is there a flotilla heading towards a military zone, and what is the ultimate goal of the operation?
According to the organizers of the Free Gaza network which enjoys the support of Hamas and its backers in Damascus and Tehran but also of governments considered in the West as mainstream such as the AKP of Turkey and the oil rich Qatar, this vast coalition of regimes and organizations assert that the aim of the 700 militants and activists was to pierce the encirclement of Gaza and lift the naval blockade of the enclave. Hence the actual goal of the humanitarian effort is to relieve Hamas, not to ensure aid to the civilians trapped in the strip. For if aid and comfort was the sole objective of the operation, the material would have been calmly handed to the United Nations agencies which would have forwarded it to the network of humanitarian associations and NGOs inside the afflicted zone. Either Egypt or Israel would have checked it and would have, under international obligation, sent it across the cease fire lines.
But the organizers of the flotilla, a vast coalition supporting the Jihadist organization based in Gaza, aimed clearly at a geopolitical gain: open a maritime path for Hamas to receive strategic support from the outside and solidify its grip over the enclave. Spokespersons for the flotilla would obviously deny the long term goal and focus on the humanitarian stated agenda. But had the architects of the initiative added a global plan to solve the crisis in Gaza, one would have given credit to the humanitarian version of the story. From Ankara to Doha, from Damascus to Tehran, policy planners are aiming at reaching their piece of Palestine, ironically at the expense of the Palestinian national authority.
Indeed, beyond the evaluation on tactical or legal grounds and who should be blamed, the picture on the strategic level is much more ominous. The launching of the flotilla timed up with two major developments, one by the moderates in the region backed by the United States and the international community and the other by the radicals in the region led by Iran and Syria. After repeated attempts to bring Israelis and Palestinians back to the table of negotiations over the past few months, Washington was close to achieving that goal with the help of moderate Arab governments and the European Union. The Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government were on their way to a sit down  direct or indirect  to proceed at an advanced stage in the process. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and other players were blessing the move cautiously. But this process was moving outside the control of Iran and Syria and their protégés in Gaza.
Hence sending activists via high seas to break the encirclement of Hamas was part of collapsing US and international efforts to resume the peace talks. Indeed as we all know, once the radicals trigger (and organize) a wave of Jihadism in the media and streets, no moderate will show up for discussions. And thats what is happening as of today: a spiraling crumbling of the latest chance for peace talks.
This is not new: It is a modified repeat of previous manipulated incidents: The Hezbollah War in 2006, the Hamas coup of 2007, the Gaza war in 2008 and many similar successful maneuvers in the 1990s: obstructing the peace process by using militants wearing peace jackets. But the more ominous development this flotilla is camouflaging is a real land fleet bringing missiles and advanced weapons to Hezbollah from Syria to the Bekaa Valley.
Over the past weeks reports have abounded about Iranian long-range missiles shipped via Syria to Hezbollah and satellite images have shown terror bases in the vicinity of Damascus growing under Baathist protection. As soon as the attention of the international community began to focus on the flow of strategic weapons to Hezbollah, the brotherhood of regimes unleashed the Gaza flotilla across the Mediterranean. Seasoned geopolitical experts would rationally link the move to create an incident off the coasts of Gaza with the move to equipping Hezbollah with lethal missiles.
In the end were looking at two flotillas, the maritime one in the south being only a decoy for the land fleet to achieve its goal of war preparations, in the north.
Dr Walid Phares is a professor of Global Strategies and the author of The Confrontation: Winning the War against Future Jihad. He is a contributor to FamilySecurityMatters.org.


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## P.kid

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> *The Gaza Flotilla&#8217;s Skirmish At Sea Diverted Attention From Hezbollah&#8217;s Weapons Imports
> *



That line was all that i needed to read. Bull sh**. They just want reasons to attack hezbollah. the entire operation was only to divert the IDF attention. do they have a short attention span or what?


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## vishal_gutsy11

why did Israel take the bait? Here is the answer:

Israel cannot allow ships to go directly to Gaza for security reasons. Innocent Israeli families are threatened daily with missile attacks launched from Gaza, and Israel must make sure weapons are not being smuggled into Gaza in humanitarian cargoes. Israel offered to offload all humanitarian supplies on board this ship and deliver them to Gaza.
These Turkish ships know that the U.N. will deliver any and all humanitarian supplies after first examining shipments to make sure they contain no weapons. Thus it appears they deliberately provoked this incident for propaganda purposes.
Israeli commanders were attacked and beaten by the humanitarian workers on this ship who were armed with iron bars and knives. One soldier was thrown off an upper deck and fell thirty feet to the deck below, sustaining significant injuries to his head.
Israeli soldiers repeatedly told each other Dont shoot! Dont shoot! as they rappelled to the surface of the ship. They fired only as a last resort and in self-defense.
According to the Weekly Standard, the organization behind this flotilla belongs to the Union of Good, which was created for the specific purpose of transferring tens of millions of dollars a year to Hamas-controlled entities in the Gaza Strip and whose leaders have been designated by our State Department as Specially Designated Global Terrorists.


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## asq

Marxist said:


> *Israel&#8217;s naval blockade pitches and rolls with the Law of the Sea *
> 
> Reactions to the Israeli seizure of the Gaza-bound flotilla have shared two traits: They have virtually all invoked international law, and they have virtually all been marked more by their rhetorical excess than their knowledge of international law.
> 
> Israel&#8217;s critics have levelled the phrases &#8220;war crimes&#8221; and &#8220;piracy,&#8221; while its supporters have invoked the spectre of &#8220;terrorism&#8221; and &#8220;weapons of mass destruction.&#8221; But when it comes to the Law of the Sea, they may all be out to sea. While much of the international law that gets tossed around at the United Nations is up for ideological grabs, the rules of engagement at sea are among the few islands of stability. It therefore behooves us to have a look at the accepted law before going overboard on politicized interpretation.
> 
> Israel and Hamas are in a state of armed conflict. That much is clear to everyone who has looked at the situation, from the General Assembly to the Human Rights Council in its Goldstone Report, which has stressed the need to conform to the laws of war. Accordingly, the accusation of piracy is inapt, since under both customary law and Article 101 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea that applies only to acts done for private gain. Israel&#8217;s acts must be analyzed in terms of the law of naval warfare.
> 
> A blockade of an enemy&#8217;s coast is an established military tactic. It is recognized as a means at the Security Council&#8217;s disposal under Article 42 of the UN Charter where collective action is authorized. Likewise, as made clear in Article 539 of the Canadian Forces manual Counter-Insurgency Operations, it is an action that one belligerent can potentially impose on another, provided that the accepted conditions for the blockade are met.
> 
> The law regulating force at sea is found in several sources updating the eight conventions on the law of naval warfare adopted at the Second International Peace Conference at The Hague in 1907. These include the U.S. Naval Handbook, an equivalent U.K. publication, and Germany&#8217;s 1992 manual, Humanitarian Law in Armed Conflicts. A consolidated set of rules was issued in 1994 by the San Remo Institute of International Law in co-operation with the International Committee of the Red Cross and several national humanitarian law societies, including Canada&#8217;s.
> 
> A naval blockade is defined in Article 7.71 of the U.S. Naval Handbook as &#8220;a belligerent operation to prevent vessels and/or aircraft of all nations, enemy as well as neutral, from entering or exiting specified ports, airfields, or coastal areas belonging to, occupied by, or under the control of an enemy nation.&#8221; It is designed to stop ships from crossing a cordon separating the enemy&#8217;s coast from the high seas. It is therefore often enforced in what would otherwise be international waters approaching, but not necessarily inside, the territorial sea of the blockaded party.
> 
> The San Remo conference set the specific rules for implementing a blockade. It must be publicly declared and notification sent to all states whose vessels are likely to be nearby. Further, the blockade must be effective. International law permits no fictitious blockade designed to frighten away third-party ships.
> 
> The San Remo rules also specify that a blockade be applied with impartiality to all states whose flagged ships enter the blockaded area. It must be conducted in a way that does not block access to neighbouring states and their ports.
> 
> A maritime blockade is for security purposes only, and must allow humanitarian assistance to the civilian population. Since the ships sailing for Gaza were on a declared humanitarian mission, those on board had the right to expect that any humanitarian goods would ultimately find their way to their intended recipients. On the other hand, having announced its blockade, Israel had no obligation to take the ships&#8217; crew at their word as to the nature of the cargo. The blockading party has the right to fashion the arrangements, including search at a nearby port, under which passage of humanitarian goods is permitted. San Remo specifies that this inspection should include supervision by a neutral party to prevent the unwarranted seizure of humanitarian supplies and the abuse of humanitarian assistance by the blockaded party.
> 
> Finally, the rule of proportionate force, applicable to all armed conflict, applies equally to a naval blockade. Blockading navies are obliged to arrest a ship rather than simply fire on it, and once its soldiers are on board an arrested ship their actions must be proportionate to the threat that they meet. While Israel appears to have met the other criteria eliminating a macro offence, here the facts will have to be gathered from witnesses and videos to determine what level of force was truly needed at the spot where the paintballs met the hammers.
> 
> We may still have to swim through an ocean of polemics, but once the legal background is set out, the Law of the Sea becomes far more cut and dry.
> 
> Ed Morgan is a professor of international law at the University of Toronto.
> 
> Israel&rsquo;s naval blockade pitches and rolls with the Law of the Sea - The Globe and Mail



All your big winded halablu is not true as it says that hamas and Israel are at war. Wrong Hamas is trying to defend, Onec again is trying to defend itself from a brute milatry force which has a proven record of commiting massacres and killing innocents. Even in last attack civilians were killed who came out to serender.

http://communities.canada.com/share...ead-as-israeli-navy-storms-gaza-aid-ship.aspx






this video is being blocked some how, pl. click on utube logo and watch it at 
the source.

The proprtionate force u ar stalking about as if u r sitting in a court room and talking about war to be, sir u should not put this kind of stuff up because the killing has already happened, now we need to investigate and punish the guilty.

Now why all the Indians on this froum are speaking for Israel, since when Indians became spokes persons for Israel, what gives.

Lay off and let the Israelis speak for themselves, not Indians, so stop being like what they say in Pakistan.

chor kolon pandh kali.


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## Ahmad

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> why did Israel take the bait? Here is the answer:
> 
> Israel cannot allow ships to go directly to Gaza for security reasons. Innocent Israeli families are threatened daily with missile attacks launched from Gaza, and Israel must make sure weapons are not being smuggled into Gaza in humanitarian cargoes. Israel offered to offload all humanitarian supplies on board this ship and deliver them to Gaza.
> These Turkish ships know that the U.N. will deliver any and all humanitarian supplies after first examining shipments to make sure they contain no weapons. Thus it appears they deliberately provoked this incident for propaganda purposes.
> Israeli commanders were attacked and beaten by the humanitarian workers on this ship who were armed with iron bars and knives. One soldier was thrown off an upper deck and fell thirty feet to the deck below, sustaining significant injuries to his head.
> Israeli soldiers repeatedly told each other Dont shoot! Dont shoot! as they rappelled to the surface of the ship. They fired only as a last resort and in self-defense.
> According to the Weekly Standard, the organization behind this flotilla belongs to the Union of Good, which was created for the specific purpose of transferring tens of millions of dollars a year to Hamas-controlled entities in the Gaza Strip and whose leaders have been designated by our State Department as Specially Designated Global Terrorists.



thank you very much for this usful information.


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## Indiarox

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> why did Israel take the bait? Here is the answer:
> 
> Israel cannot allow ships to go directly to Gaza for security reasons. Innocent Israeli families are threatened daily with missile attacks launched from Gaza, and Israel must make sure weapons are not being smuggled into Gaza in &#8220;humanitarian&#8221; cargoes. Israel offered to offload all humanitarian supplies on board this ship and deliver them to Gaza.
> These Turkish ships know that the U.N. will deliver any and all humanitarian supplies after first examining shipments to make sure they contain no weapons. Thus it appears they deliberately provoked this incident for propaganda purposes.
> Israeli commanders were attacked and beaten by the &#8220;humanitarian&#8221; workers on this ship who were armed with iron bars and knives. One soldier was thrown off an upper deck and fell thirty feet to the deck below, sustaining significant injuries to his head.
> Israeli soldiers repeatedly told each other &#8220;Don&#8217;t shoot! Don&#8217;t shoot!&#8221; as they rappelled to the surface of the ship. They fired only as a last resort and in self-defense.
> According to the Weekly Standard, the organization behind this flotilla belongs to the Union of Good, which was created for the specific purpose of transferring tens of millions of dollars a year to Hamas-controlled entities in the Gaza Strip and whose leaders have been designated by our State Department as Specially Designated Global Terrorists.


dude whats with the Israeli propaganda
May be the Israelis forgot about something called non lethal weaponry


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## vishal_gutsy11




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## vishal_gutsy11




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## vishal_gutsy11

Indiarox said:


> dude whats with the Israeli propaganda
> May be the Israelis forgot about something called non lethal weaponry



no propaganda bro. its just that they helped us when we needed it most.
and today when they need our support , we shouldnt leave them in the middle of all this..

as for using non lethal weaponry , well i guess this is the reason why israel has managed to survive in middle of so many hostile nations , they just cant afford to take anything for granted.


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## notsuperstitious

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> no propaganda bro. its just that they helped us when we needed it most.
> and today when they need our support , we shouldnt leave them in the middle of all this..
> 
> as for using non lethal weaponry , well i guess this is the reasons why israel has managed to survive in middle of so many hostile nations , they just cant afford to take anything for granted.



Why can't you see a more harmonious Israel is in Israel's self interest? No Indian here is supporting Hamas, I hate those thugs, but critcizing Israel's unnecessary actions won't cause Israel's destruction.

Don't you criticize India at times too? Doesn't mean I'll leave India when she needs me.


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## asq

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> YouTube - Israeli IDF soldiers attacked by "peace" activists



Israeli propoganda


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## Indiarox

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> no propaganda bro. its just that they helped us when we needed it most.


Expand on what you said with source please



vishal_gutsy11 said:


> and today when they need our support , we shouldnt leave them in the middle of all this..


they are in the middle of this situation coz of what they did and believe me stopping food from coming to starving people and medicines for the injured is a gross disrespect to human rights.

Besides this was international waters and Israel no rights to do this what they did is an act of piracy or Privateering(govt. sponsored piracy)

Reactions: Like Like:
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## asq

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> no propaganda bro. its just that they helped us when we needed it most.
> and today when they need our support , we shouldnt leave them in the middle of all this..
> 
> as for using non lethal weaponry , well i guess this is the reason why israel has managed to survive in middle of so many hostile nations , they just cant afford to take anything for granted.



israeli propoganda, Hay more arab countires have relations with Israel.

If today all Arabs cooperted, Israel will be in big trouble.
And u sir as an Indian why are U peaking on behalf of Israel. Are u their spokes person


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## asq

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> YouTube - Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace



Vishal dude, do u represent Israel.


----------



## Comet

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> why did Israel take the bait? Here is the answer:
> 
> Israel cannot allow ships to go directly to Gaza for security reasons. Innocent Israeli families are threatened daily with missile attacks launched from Gaza, and Israel must make sure weapons are not being smuggled into Gaza in humanitarian cargoes. Israel offered to offload all humanitarian supplies on board this ship and deliver them to Gaza.
> These Turkish ships know that the U.N. will deliver any and all humanitarian supplies after first examining shipments to make sure they contain no weapons. Thus it appears they deliberately provoked this incident for propaganda purposes.
> Israeli commanders were attacked and beaten by the humanitarian workers on this ship who were armed with iron bars and knives. One soldier was thrown off an upper deck and fell thirty feet to the deck below, sustaining significant injuries to his head.
> Israeli soldiers repeatedly told each other Dont shoot! Dont shoot! as they rappelled to the surface of the ship. They fired only as a last resort and in self-defense.
> According to the Weekly Standard, the organization behind this flotilla belongs to the Union of Good, which was created for the specific purpose of transferring tens of millions of dollars a year to Hamas-controlled entities in the Gaza Strip and whose leaders have been designated by our State Department as Specially Designated Global Terrorists.



If you could read the posts before you would understand that all the arguments that you have put forward have been nullified.


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## Dr.Evil

asq said:


> israeli propoganda, Hay more arab countires have relations with Israel.
> 
> If today all Arabs cooperted, Israel will be in big trouble.
> And u sir as an Indian why are U peaking on behalf of Israel. Are u their spokes person



In the same tone - did palestenians or turks or arabs appoint you as their spokesperson. 

Let him present his point of view and you could also do the same, there is no need to browbeat other members to agree to your point of view.


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## rameez ahmed

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> get out of ure hallucinations.



I don't give a damn to what you have to say.. 

Its for muslims only and not for you ... 

A true muslim would atleast see what I have to show them because its an important part of our religion which is about to happen in near future..

That is all that want.. Its not all for non muslims.....


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## Dr.Evil

rameez ahmed said:


> I don't give a damn to what you have to say..
> 
> Its for muslims only and not for you ...
> 
> A true muslim would atleast see what I have to show them because its an important part of our religion which is about to happen in near future..
> 
> That is all that want.. Its not all for non muslims.....



Is it that those predictions will affect only the muslims ?

Rest of us Non-Muslims keep on carrying with our lives.

Keep the Religious sermoning off this thread.

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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> Is it that those predictions will affect only the muslims ?
> 
> Rest of us Non-Muslims keep on carrying with our lives.
> 
> Keep the Religious sermoning off this thread.



why? whatsup? you are afraid of something?


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## Dr.Evil

umairp said:


> why? whatsup? you are afraid of something?



I am afraid that evil will takeover this world.

Dr.Evil


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## Comet

Dr.Evil said:


> I am afraid that evil will takeover this world.
> 
> Dr.Evil



Evil will take over? my friend evil is already there... that is what we are discussing in this forum.

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## rameez ahmed

Dr.Evil said:


> Is it that those predictions will affect only the muslims ?
> 
> Rest of us Non-Muslims keep on carrying with our lives.
> 
> Keep the Religious sermoning off this thread.



The non muslims will be effected by it definitely.. But at this time you people will not believe it.... 

Only muslims will believe it right now because every muslim believe in Imam Al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (AS)'s arrival .. 

If I say that their arrival near and i have something to show to muslims in this regard that is recognized true by Islamic scholars like Dr Israr Ahmed (May Allah Bless his soul) , then a true muslim will atleast see what I have to show to him ..... 

Non muslims will only believe it when it will happen....


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## rameez ahmed

The Holy Prophet (SA) said"

"Surely you will fight the jews. and surely you will kill them. And on that day even the stones will speak to muslims that O Muslim !! There's a jew hiding Behind Me. So come and Kill Him'

(sahih Bukhari)


If We study the history of Jews you will Come to know that they are waiting for their MESSAIH (to be Sent by ALLAH to them) who will liberate the Israel for them and will make them rule the world. But the True MESSIAH is Hazrat ISA (AS) who will return on this world for Muslims . So their MESSIAH According To Holy Prophet (SA) is DAJJAL or the FALSE MESSIAH...

They are doing all this to gain power so that their FALSE MESSIAH may come and rule...

The Israelis started to come to the Holy Land (Jerusalem) in early 1900s.... Then they create the State of Israel in 1948 ..... Now they are making steps to rule the world .. they have completed almost 60% of their 3rd objective, and when they will achieve it , DAJJAL WILL EMERGE and will say that he is the MESSIAH.

US is the Biggest supporter of Israel and have given it great weapons so that it may rule the world as the SUPER POWER .. And undoubtedly now its a very big power and can deal with the Middle east alone now..

Brothers and sisters ask any Islamic Scholar who have studied the Signs of Emergence of Imam al Mahdi , Dajjal and Hazrat Isa (SA) in detail.. He will tell you that WE ARE LIVING IN THE AGE OF DAJJAL.....

If you don't agree with me search on net the Lectures of late Dr Israr Ahmed (may Allah bless his Soul) and Maulana Imran Hosein (he is Sunni)......

You can see the lecture on Dajjal by Sheikh Imran Hosein at the following link:

Abaut dajjal

his further lectures (including lectures of Dr Israr Ahmed ) can be search on *you tube* by typing their respective names or searching their websites on internet.


----------



## asq

Dr.Evil said:


> In the same tone - did palestenians or turks or arabs appoint you as their spokesperson.
> 
> Let him present his point of view and you could also do the same, there is no need to browbeat other members to agree to your point of view.




NO, but i talk sense, and on the other hand u talk only how to suport Israel by hook or by crook.

I am all for discussions in this forum, but unfairly suporting the wrong doers is something only those who suport for selfish reasons are the one that i have mentioned above, R.U one of those who will suport israel or anyone for promises of milatry aid and for money.

man do have any sense of fair play and believe in Justice


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## mjnaushad

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> no propaganda bro. its just that they helped us when we needed it most.
> and today when they need our support , we shouldnt leave them in the middle of all this..
> 
> as for using non lethal weaponry , well i guess this is the reason why israel has managed to survive in middle of so many hostile nations , they just cant afford to take anything for granted.


So its proved you guys are just defending "daddy israel" because of some weapons systems. trying to justify the killings of innocents. I didn't know you can go this cheap.

BTW thing called flash bang is non-lethal weapon.

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## Dr.Evil

asq said:


> NO, but i talk sense, and on the other hand u talk only how to suport Israel by hook or by crook.
> 
> I am all for discussions in this forum, but unfairly suporting the wrong doers is something only those who suport for selfish reasons are the one that i have mentioned above, R.U one of those who will suport israel or anyone for promises of milatry aid and for money.
> 
> man do have any sense of fair play and of Justice



If you dont know

India is one of the major Aid donors to palestine ( More than what Pakistan provides ) , and a major supporter of an Independent Palestine state.

So keep your logics to your self, its not necessary that we have agree on everything.

Pakistani members seem to be more interested in the plight of Palestenians then to the plight of Ahmedias in pakistan ( This much sorrow had not been shown for the dead pakistanis), Please check the thread about the death of Ahmedias in the terrorist attacks before commenting. Why is that so ?

Is it because most of guys think that a Muslim life is more important than Non-Muslim life.


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## vishal_gutsy11

mjnaushad said:


> So its proved you guys are just defending "daddy israel" because of some weapons systems. trying to justify the killings of innocents. I didn't know you can go this cheap.
> 
> BTW thing called flash bang is non-lethal weapon.



hahaha... so according to ure twisted morality .. killing 20 pirates was inhumane , but ure borthers who are killing innocent civilains on a daily basis are so very humane.


----------



## vishal_gutsy11

umairp said:


> why? whatsup? you are afraid of something?



we know it very well , satan will never be able to take on this world.


----------



## mjnaushad

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> hahaha... so according to ure twisted morality .. killing 20 pirates was inhumane , but ure borthers who are killing innocent civilains on a daily basis are so very humane.


So they are pirates now.......

Can you go more cheap....i want to see your best.


----------



## vishal_gutsy11

mjnaushad said:


> Because they had no right to be on that ship. Its been said and proved 1000 times. Go through the thread.




so u mean to say that israelies should have let that ship pass without any inspection..???

is this ure point ?


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## mjnaushad

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> so u mean to say that israelies should have let that ship pass without any inspection..???
> 
> is this ure point ?


They have no right to "inspect" in international waters. Blocking Waters of Gaza is also illegal. If they enter Israeli water i have no objection on checking or destroying it altogether.

*Dont make me write all that again. Just go through the thread.*


----------



## vishal_gutsy11

mjnaushad said:


> They have no right to "inspect" in international waters. Blocking Waters of Gaza is also illegal. If they enter Israeli water i have no objection on checking or destroying it altogether.



be clear.
that ship was heading towards gaza . should israeles let any ship pass to gaza without any scrutiny..???

like i said earlier , becoz of this strict adhernce to national security,israel has managed to survive among all the hostile nations around it.
if israel dont act this strict , the jihadis will not let is survive.
its too simple.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> so u mean to say that israelies should have let that ship pass without any inspection..???
> 
> is this ure point ?



the ship was already inspected before it left Turkiye

and yes -- aid ships should be allowed to travel to Palestine to deliver aid. Oh wait, the israilys control Palestinian land and air (and pretty much every aspect of Palestinian life). I forgot.





The Turks should indeed send more aid ships, with Naval escort. A boat from Ireland is also on its way, and I salute all those Muslims and non-Muslims who are showing solidarity to the Palestinians who are under siege by a rogue state that is in violation of more international accords and resolutions that i completely have lost track


you dont send commandos to commandeer a boat run by civilians, and kill them. That was plain cowardice, and any rational voice knows this.



the analyses from these goddam hindustanys on PDF are meaningless, and just shows that they are a miserable lot of 'chaamchas' 



that's right....

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## mjnaushad

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> be clear.
> that ship was heading towards gaza . should israeles let any ship pass to gaza without any scrutiny..???
> 
> like i said earlier , becoz of this strict adhernce to national security,israel has managed to survive among all the hostile nations around it.
> if israel dont act this strict , the jihadis will not let is survive.
> its too simple.


If israel stop illegal occupation of Palestine there is no problem of Jihadis....

Its too simple.


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## vishal_gutsy11

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the ship was already inspected before it left Turkiye
> 
> and yes -- aid ships should be allowed to travel to Palestine to deliver aid. Oh wait, the israilys control Palestinian land and air (and pretty much every aspect of Palestinian life). I forgot.
> 
> 
> yes they do. becoz they can. if they dont , they will destroyed within a week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Turks should indeed send more aid ships, with Naval escort. A boat from Ireland is also on its way, and I salute all those Muslims and non-Muslims who are showing solidarity to the Palestinians who are under siege by a rogue state that is in violation of more international accords and resolutions that i completely have lost track
> 
> 
> you dont send commandos to commandeer a boat run by civilians, and kill them. That was plain cowardice, and any rational voice knows this.
> 
> 
> 
> the analyses from these goddam hindustanys on PDF are meaningless, and just shows that they are a miserable lot of 'chaamchas'
> 
> 
> 
> that's right....





yes u can call me chamcha for expressing my opinion.
but u cant simply face the obvious.
if israel dont act so strict , it cant survive.
its a matter of thier survival.


----------



## vishal_gutsy11

mjnaushad said:


> If israel stop illegal occupation of Palestine there is no problem of Jihadis....
> 
> Its too simple.




yes similarly india stop illegal occupation of kashmir 
russia stop illegal occupation of chechen
thailand , phillipines etc etc. all stp illegal occupation , there will be no problem for the holy jihadis. 
they wont have to take the trouble of killing civilinas into markets and public places.
wish it was so simple..


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

*Emotion High as Turkey Buries its Gaza Flotilla Dead​*
​


> *Emotions are running high in Turkey at funerals for nine activists, all Turkish or of Turkish origin, killed in Israel's raid on the Gaza aid flotilla.
> 
> The bodies were flown from Israel to Istanbul, along with more than 450 activists, to a heroes' welcome. *
> 
> Israel has said there is no need for an international inquiry into the incident, insisting its own will meet the "highest international standards".
> 
> The UN Human Rights Council (HRC) voted earlier to set up an investigation.
> 
> Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said his troops had no choice but to stop the ships.
> 
> He argued the flotilla had been aiming not to deliver humanitarian aid to Gazans, but to break Israel's blockade.
> 
> It was Israel's duty to prevent rockets and other weapons being smuggled into Gaza to Hamas by Iran and others, he said.
> 
> *Turkey, one of Israel's few allies in the Muslim world, recalled its ambassador after the incident on Monday. *
> 
> *'Barbarism and Oppression'*
> 
> Its President, Abdullah Gul, said relations between the two countries would "never be the same".
> 
> *The mood of the crowd echoed remarks made by the Turkish president, who said that an irreparable and deep scar had been left in Turkey's relations with Israel. *
> 
> The Israelis and what they did were denounced repeatedly.
> 
> Israel's version that its men opened fire in self-defence is utterly rejected here.
> 
> At the end of the ceremony the dead were taken away to be buried close to their homes.
> 
> For Turks, it is not just that civilians died. The raid is seen as an attack on their country's honour and sovereignty and, like the Gaza war and the Iraq invasion, it is detaching some Turks at least from old friends in the West and pushing them closer to the Muslim Middle East.
> 
> *"This incident has left an irreparable and deep scar" on relations, he told reporters in Ankara.
> 
> In a fiery speech at Istanbul airport, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc accused Israel of "piracy" and "barbarism and oppression". *
> 
> Crowds of people, some wearing Palestinian-style scarves, gathered in the city to meet the coffins, swathed in Turkish flags, at the Ottoman-era Fatih mosque.
> 
> The funerals took place in a strongly Islamist part of the city and emotions were running high, reported the BBC's Bethany Bell.
> 
> One of the bodies was due to be buried in Istanbul while the other eight were being taken to their home towns, AFP news agency reported.
> 
> *Turkish post-mortem examinations found all nine of the dead had been shot, some at close range.
> 
> The dead include a 19-year-old Turkish citizen with an American passport - hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest - and a national taekwondo athlete, Turkish media say. *
> 
> The bodies arrived, along with the 450 activists, in three aircraft chartered by the Turkish government at Istanbul airport in the early hours of Thursday, after several hours of delays.
> 
> Mr Arinc said his government saluted the Turkish Islamic charity, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), which played a leading role in organising the convoy - a charity Israel has accused of supporting terrorism.
> 
> IHH leader Bulent Yildrim said upon his arrival back in Istanbul that he believed the death toll could be higher than nine, as his organisation had a longer list of missing people.
> 
> British activist Sarah Colbourne told the BBC: "I couldn't even count the amount of ships that were in the water. It was literally bristling with ships, helicopters and gunfire. It was horrific, absolutely horrific."
> 
> Swedish author Henning Mankell, who was aboard one of the ships in the flotilla, has dismissed the idea that weapons were being carried by the activists.
> 
> *"On the ship I was on, they found one weapon: my razor. And they actually came up and showed it off, my razor, so you see what level this was at," the author of the popular Wallander detective novels told Swedish radio. *
> 
> *'Double Standard'*
> 
> Consular staff were on hand in Istanbul to help the activists from other countries. They include 34 people who hold British passports.
> 
> Doctors in Ankara, where some of the severely injured were taken, say they have been treating people for bullet wounds. Three people are in intensive care.
> 
> Seven other activists are in a serious condition and will remain in Israeli hospitals until they can be moved, Israeli officials say.
> 
> Another plane carrying 31 Greek activists, three French nationals and one American flew into Athens early on Thursday.
> 
> More than 100 relatives and supporters cheered and shouted pro-Palestinian slogans at the airport.
> 
> *Rejecting the proposed HRC investigation, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said demands for an external inquiry showed a double standard towards the Jewish state. *
> 
> When American or British troops were accused of killing civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan, he said, it was the US or Britain that carried out the investigation, not an international body.
> 
> Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman suggested attaching international observers to an internal Israeli inquiry.
> 
> "We have excellent jurists... one of whom will be willing to take it on himself, and if they want to include an international member of some sort in their committee that's alright too," he told Israel radio.
> 
> The US, Israel's most important ally, has already made it clear it will accept an Israeli-led inquiry, the BBC's Andrew North reports from Jerusalem.
> 
> *New ship*
> 
> *Talk in Gaza is now turning to the next ship on its way across the Mediterranean to try to break the blockade, the BBC's Jon Donnison reports from the territory. *
> 
> * The MV Rachel Corrie is expected in the blockade area within days The Rachel Corrie - carrying 15 people including Nobel Peace laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire - had been due to be part of the original flotilla but was delayed because of technical problems. *
> 
> The ship could be in the region by Saturday, our correspondent reports. Israel has said it will not be allowed to dock in Gaza.
> 
> "Everybody was very upset at what happened [with the flotilla]," Irish crew member Derek Graham told Reuters news agency by telephone.
> 
> "Everybody has been more determined than ever to continue on to Gaza."
> 
> *Meanwhile, some of the 10,000 tonnes of aid seized from the flotilla by Israel has been returned to the Israeli port of Ashdod after being left stranded at a Gaza-Israel crossing. *
> 
> The Hamas government in control of Gaza refused to accept the aid until Israeli-Arab activists from the flotilla were released.



BBC News - Emotion high as Turkey buries its Gaza flotilla dead


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## scrumpy

Israelis have got into this situation because of the thinking that might is right. This kind of attitude will never lead to peace for their neighbors or themselves. The blockade of Gaza is strengthening the very organisation Hamas that they want to punish. I suspect that this is intentional since it gives them a perceived moral high ground as long as Hamas is in power. The blockade of Gaza should be lifted as soon as possible. 

They need to get out of Palestine and let Palestinians control their own destiny.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Dr.Evil said:


> You are as much a member as anyone else, You are no one to decide who should be the part of this forum.



I am telling you, feel privileged to be on here on a PAKISTANI defence forum. You are free to speak your mind; but when you spit crap and propaganda, you will be confronted by people like myself. And your double-standards will be exposed. 



> *If the forum Admins deem that this forum should only be for pakistanis then we will leave, until then we are here to stay and put across our point of view.*



Agha, if things were my way, thered be FAR fewer hindustanys posting on here than there are now. Your people are flooding this site en masse, and it disgusts me. But I am not the boss, I dont call any shots here. Most importantly and pertinently, I respect Webby and his decisions --even if it means allowing people like you to be on here.



> If you cant put across your point of view or unable to debate the you are free to leave this thread and the forum, that choice is yours to make.



Ahhhhan! And who are you??? 



> *You seem to be suffering from deficiency where you cant understand the statements made and definitely you cant type the correct spellings.*



Show me where I made spelling mistake and I will be happy to correct it. 

Bold-facing your words, writing in big colourful fonts and other not-so-aesthetically pleasing tactics wont make your point any more heard or legit.

I hope you understand.




> Pls. go and see a doctor there might be something seriously wrong with your health.



So now you are advising me on my health. 

I had my annual checkups two weeks back. All is well, all is fit. Ready to take on trolls such as yourself. I appreciate your concerns though.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

vishal_gutsy11 said:


> yes u can call me chamcha for expressing my opinion.
> but u cant simply face the obvious.
> if israel dont act so strict , it cant survive.
> its a matter of thier survival.



so israel should act brutal the way it has been since its existence, and think there wouldnt be reaction or retaliation?


or do the israelis always want to be running and hiding in their bomb-bunkers subsequent to massacring villages and uprooting the livelihoods and honour of the Palestinian peoples?


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## Dr.Evil

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I am telling you, feel privileged to be on here on a PAKISTANI defence forum. You are free to speak your mind; but when you spit crap and propaganda, you will be confronted by people like myself. And your double-standards will be exposed.
> 
> 
> 
> Agha, if things were my way, thered be FAR fewer *hindustanys *posting on here than there are now. Your people are flooding this site en masse, and it disgusts me. But I am not the boss, I dont call any shots here. Most importantly and pertinently, I respect Webby and his decisions --even if it means allowing people like you to be on here.
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhhan! And who are you???
> 
> 
> 
> Show me where I made spelling mistake and I will be happy to correct it.
> 
> Bold-facing your words, writing in big colourful fonts and other not-so-aesthetically pleasing tactics wont make your point any more heard or legit.
> 
> 
> :



I have highlighed in the present Post it self where you have changed the spelling of Hindustani to " Hindustanys"

If you need anymore, I will be glad to send you.


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## Wounded Healer

You know, its the threads like this one that really make me miss Indian members of old. Bull, Joey, Samudra, and even Adux, to name just a few.

I mean, we argued with them as well but they at least had the wisdom of differentiating between right and wrong.

Now all i see is some Indian members purposely denying the facts that are staring at them right in the face. Only because the affected are either muslims or Pakistanis.

Its a damn shame.


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## khanz

british survivor insists israeli troops fired at unarmed activists....

Video: British survivor tells of Israeli assault on Gaza aid floatilla | World news | guardian.co.uk


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## khanz

good to know these are atleast a few sane indians out there....

A new video released by the Israeli government shows one of the soldiers who took part in yesterday&#8217;s bloody attack on the Gaza Freedom flotilla. In this propoganda clip, the Israeli soldier justifies the attack, claiming they were attacked first by the people on the flotilla. &#8220;It was a lynch,&#8221; says the soldier. &#8220;Every guy that came down the ropes was taken aside, and everyone there had metal rods, knives, slingshots, glass bottles.&#8221; Since the Israelis can only be victims, and never aggressors, the soldier tries to justify the cold-blooded murder of 10 people armed with &#8220;rods, slingshots and bottles.&#8221; 

Enough is enough. It&#8217;s time to declare Israel a terrorist state. That&#8217;s what it is. It reacts to slingshots with machine guns. It allows its tanks to fire at stone-throwing kids. It has no qualms about firing rockets on Palestinian hospitals and residential areas. And Israel does all this in the name of fighting terror tactics of Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip. It&#8217;s difficult to defend the activities Hamas, but we can&#8217;t forget the fact that it was constant humiliation of PLO and leaders like Yasser Arafat and Mehmoud Abbas by Israel that gave birth to groups like Hamas. 

And look at the way the world is reacting to this brazen attack on a humanitarian mission. The UN is saying it wants to probe the &#8216;acts&#8217; which led to this &#8216;tragedy&#8217;. The UN is a spineless organisation, but to look away and talk in an ambiguous language when civil society people are killed in cold blood is a new low even by the UN&#8217;s pathetic standards. And the US, which leaves no chance to talk about the "threats of terrorism" and "making the world safe for democracy", is quiet. Why? Imagine, if Iran had done something similar. In that case, President Obama would be busy planning missiles attacks on Tehran. But today, 24 hours after the attack on the Gaza flotilla, the Nobel Peace Prize winner is mum. 

In fact, the government of India has shown more character than any western nation by condemning the Israeli attack on the civilian mission. But India can do more than mere condemnation of a barbaric attack. It will be a good idea for New Delhi to put some business and military deals with Israel on hold or cancel them. It&#8217;s time for the international community to impose sanctions on Israel, which was accepted into the the global family after it signed peace deals with Arafat in Oslo in 1995. Later Yitzhak Rabin and Arafat made an appearance with Bill Clinton on the White House lawns and it seemed Israel was ready to join the civilised world. But, soon Rabin paid for his peace effort when he fell to an Israeli fanatic&#8217;s bullets. And since then the Israeli foreign policy has been in the hands of fanatics like Benjamin Netanyahu, whose world view is pre-medieval. 

Israel is a dangerous country. It&#8217;s an irresponsible regime. It&#8217;s an undeclared nuclear power. It bullies its neighbours. It has been torturing the Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza for decades. It treats Israeli Arabs as second-class citizens. And Israel has been doing all this because of the backing of the US, UK and other western countries, which always turn a blind eye to Israel's crimes against humanity. And the west backs Israel not because it feels guilty about hundreds of years of crimes against Jews in Europe, but because it uses Israel as a thug against the Middles Eastern nations in order to maintain a crisis situation in the oil and gas-rich region. 

It&#8217;s because of this attitude, Israel always gets away with murder. After the massacre of Israeli athletes by the Black September in Munich during 1972 Olympics, Israel launched a campaign to hunt down the perpetrators of the Munich attack. Instead of finding the Black September leaders, Israel assassinated the Palestinian movement leadership spread over Europe and Africa and propagated a pure lie that all Munich criminals had been killed. In his brilliant film &#8216;Munich&#8217;, Steven Spielberg exposed this lie and the Zionist fanatics became angry at them. Now, Israel is denying visa to Noam Chomsky, the greatest living American public intellectual, because he has been chronicling Israel's crimes. And both Spielberg and Chomsky are Jew. 

The attack on flotilla is actually an attack on Turkey. The recent nuclear deal between Turkey, Brazil and Iran has made Israel nervous. According to the deal, Iran will send its enriched uranium to Turkey for conversion into fuel. If this plan is successful, Israel and the US will have no excuse to attack Iran. That's why they have been dismissive of the Tehran deal. And now, the US is keeping quiet and Israel is spreading lies about the Gaza flotilla, which came from Turkey.

It&#8217;s time for the international community to stop Israel&#8217;s terror games. To begin with, they should declare Israel a terrorist state.

Declare Israel a terrorist state : World : Shobhan Saxena : TOI Blogs

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## asq

Dr.Evil said:


> If you dont know
> 
> India is one of the major Aid donors to palestine ( More than what Pakistan provides ) , and a major supporter of an Independent Palestine state.
> 
> So keep your logics to your self, its not necessary that we have agree on everything.
> 
> Pakistani members seem to be more interested in the plight of Palestenians then to the plight of Ahmedias in pakistan ( This much sorrow had not been shown for the dead pakistanis), Please check the thread about the death of Ahmedias in the terrorist attacks before commenting. Why is that so ?
> 
> Is it because most of guys think that a Muslim life is more important than Non-Muslim life.



What the hell u r talking about, go read the thread about Qadianis and than come back and talk, it seems that u are here to say strange things and mention things not related to thread, u sir are A troll, mentionuing things unrelated the thread at hand.

Why are U mentioning about attack only on Qadianis, U dude have salective memory because there have been more killiong of innocnet Pakistanis by TIP than Qadianis. So get off your Morility horse and see the facts, but stop trolling. Man

so u have a double standard, on one hand aid Palistenians and on the other hand suport killing of them, What a way to go. i guess your avatar says it all.


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## Xeric

Dr.Evil said:


> I have highlighed in the present Post it self where you have changed the spelling of Hindustani to " Hindustanys"
> 
> If you need anymore, I will be glad to send you.



It wont matter hindustanys or hindoo are not offensive words, but yes Pak-i is. Try googling it 

So chill and sit back.


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## Dr.Evil

xeric said:


> It wont matter hindustanys or hindoo are not offensive words, but yes Pak-i is. Try googling it
> 
> So chill and sit back.



It will matter because because both the spellings are wrong

its - *HINDUSTANI & HINDU*

& Mind you not all Indians are Hindu's, there are almost equal number of muslims to Pakistani population.
Any change of that spelling is a wilful insult. I dont need to check google.

*Why should there be a problem to use the correct spelling.*

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## khanz

lies damned lies and israeli propoganda

Following Israel's murderous attack on the Freedom Flotilla taking humanitarian aid to Gaza, it is hard not to conclude that sections of the media in Britain and other Western countries have been desperate to find ways to justify the crime. On the BBC and Sky News, a frequent argument has been that Israel feels "isolated" by the international community and is in a "war" situation, and therefore feels that it has to take extraordinary measures to defend itself. To shore up this argument, these media outlets have, once again, repeated two tired fabrications; Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction and Israel's blockade of Gaza was imposed in response to Hamas rocket attacks.

The reality is, of course, very different. Israel is not isolated by the rest of the world. On the contrary, unlike, say, Iran and Syria (and before 2003, Iraq) in the Middle East, Israel has not been subject to sanctions in any way by the international community. It remains the largest recipient of US financial, political and military aid, despite the much-hyped rift between the Obama administration and the right-wing Netanyahu government and was recently co-opted to the Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development with the blessing of the European Union Nations. Nor is Israel in a war situation. None of Israel's Arab neighbours pose a military threat to its existence and two of them, Egypt and Jordan, have full diplomatic relations with the Jewish state; Egypt cooperates actively with Israel in the siege of Gaza.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is usually said to have started in June 2007, when Hamas took control of the territory after pre-empting a coup by a faction within political rivals Fatah, but Israel had been limiting the movement of goods and people into Gaza long before that. The rockets fired from Gaza are not a threat to Israel and are not the reason for the blockade. Israel conducts frequent and deadly raids into the Gaza Strip and the rockets are fired in response to these raids. These rockets are very basic and inaccurate, capable of causing limited damage; they are very rarely lethal and are the only "serious" weapon available to a desperate people who have been brutalised by Israel for years. What about the claim that Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction? Hamas has offered Israel an open-ended ceasefire if it withdraws from the West Bank and lifts the blockade of Gaza; Israel has refused. The very fact that this "hudna" has been offered is de facto recognition of the state of Israel.

It is still not known exactly how many fatalities there were during Israel's assault on the flotilla. Most news reports claim that nine or ten of the passengers were killed by the Israeli commandos, but other sources suggest that the figure could be as high as nineteen. Israel has imposed an information blackout designed to make sure that only its version of events comes out. As part of this "hasbara" campaign, the Israeli military issued a grainy black and white video, labelled helpfully, showing some of its soldiers being attacked with iron bars and chairs, with one being thrown from one deck to another, as they stormed it from their helicopters. This film has been played without comment on Sky News, the BBC and other channels. In addition, Israeli claims that the activists were carrying knives and stun grenades on their ship have been taken at face value and reported without comment all too frequently. The Israelis would have us believe that helpless commandos were attacked by unarmed "terrorists" masquerading as activists and the main news channels in Britain and other countries have been more than willing to repeat this message.

In this way, the murder of at least nine unarmed people by soldiers armed to the teeth is made to look natural and justifiable. The Israeli video is so surreal and unbelievable that it is barely worth commenting on. Apart from the fact that there is another, better quality video of an announcement made by an activist to his fellow passengers telling them not to resist because there is nothing they can do against the Israelis' live ammunition, suffice to say that Israel has used this tactic before. During the war on Gaza, in order to justify its attacks on civilians, the Israeli army posted videos of rockets being loaded or fired, which later turned out to be faked. Even if we suppose that the latest "attack" video is authentic, isn't it natural for people under attack to defend themselves? And yet the activists are being portrayed as thugs, hooligans and terrorists for doing so.

Israel has called the Freedom Flotilla an "Armada of Hate" and said that the activists on board are linked with Hamas, al-Qaeda, and "global jihad"; again, these absurd claims have been taken at face value by sections of the media. The Turkish humanitarian organisation, IHH, which has played a leading role in the flotilla, has been smeared in the Daily Telegraph as a front organisation for al-Qaeda, without any evidence being proffered. This charitable society operates legally around the world apart from Israel where it is banned, as are many other legitimate charities which support Palestinians in the midst of a desperate humanitarian catastrophe; no credible evidence is ever provided for these bans. They are seen by many as just another tool used by Israel to deny Palestinians much-needed aid.

The same DailyTelegraph story mentions that the flotilla has been endorsed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the British Green Party MP Caroline Lucas. On board the flotilla were the Swedish bestselling author Henrig Mankell, the former United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq, Dennis Halliday and the founder of Northern Ireland's "Peace People", Mairead Corrigan Maguire. Did the Telegraph bother to ask why all these people endorsed and took part in a project organised by IHH if it was indeed an al-Qaeda front organisation?

One very important aspect has been played down amidst all this hostile media coverage - the dire need of the people of Gaza for the items on board the ships of the flotilla. Among other things the flotilla carried cement, building materials, school supplies and medical equipment. The admittedly limited quantity of aid on the convoy would still have been of immense value to the people of Gaza. The homes and buildings that Israel destroyed in its December 2008 assault on the territory are still in ruins because Israel has since blocked the import of building materials. In fact, there is a long and arbitrary list of items that cannot be imported: pencils, computers and other educational items, for example, are banned, as are many food items, such as canned fruit. The volume and category of goods permitted to be imported into Gaza are kept at a level low enough to create poverty, malnourishment and suffering but not too low to create a humanitarian catastrophe that will make Israel look bad in front of the cameras. Despite this, the statement by Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman that there is "no humanitarian crisis in Gaza" and that Israel is allowing thousands of tons of food and equipment in has been reported without comment. The organisers of the Freedom Flotilla have also been criticised by some for not accepting Israel's offer to unload their ships in Ashdod so that the Israelis can deliver their cargo "through the usual channels". They were, of course, supposed to believe that the same "channels" which have made the people of Gaza suffer for so many years would suddenly and willingly help to alleviate that suffering.

Media complicity in Israel's crimes has long been accepted by analysts, and Israel has spent a great deal of money on promoting its side of the long-running conflict narrative through a sophisticated propaganda machine. This latest episode, however, has exposed the double-standards and lack of genuine objectivity by the compliant sections of the media. On BBC Radio 5's "Up all Night" programme on 2 June, Bruce Shapiro, the executive Director of the Dart Centre for Journalism and Trauma at the Columbia University in New York City, said that in most cases, the "facts" which emerge within the first 24-48 hours of incidents like Israel's hijacking of the flotilla are usually shown to be false with the passage of time. Should this happen in this case (and it has already been admitted by an Israeli military spokesperson that none of the passengers had any weapons on them prior to the assault), a lot of media outlets will be left with egg on their faces because they have allowed the Israeli side of the story to be pushed almost unchallenged. How long will it be before members of the public grasp the fact that they are being duped, say enough is enough, and demand a balanced media approach to this conflict?

Lies, damned lies, and Israeli propaganda


----------



## notsuperstitious

xeric said:


> It wont matter hindustanys or hindoo are not offensive words, but yes Pak-i is. Try googling it
> 
> So chill and sit back.



Ok we'll use pakistany and mooslim, I hope you won't have a problem!

And pak - i is abusive, may be we can use pakee?

How lame you sound!


----------



## notsuperstitious

khanz said:


> In fact, the government of India has shown more character than any western nation by condemning the Israeli attack on the civilian mission. But India can do more than mere condemnation of a barbaric attack. It will be a good idea for New Delhi to put some business and military deals with Israel on hold or cancel them.[/url]



Absolutely no need. Those are business deals not favors. When was the last time we heard our neighbors cancel deals with china for china's treatment of the uighurs or falun gong or tibetans? The bleeding hearts club is nothing but a cult, no need to join. The turks haven't cancelled defence deals with israel yet!!!

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## fawwaxs

*The Gaza Flotilla: How Israels Ministry of Foreign Affairs Fakes Photos of Seized Weapons*

The following is a repost, due to the amazing hard work of one Ibn Kafka. He has taken the liberty of translating the original post from French into English.

On the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs Flickr page, the pictures of the so-called weapons seized on the ships taking part in the Gaza Freedom Flotilla provide ample evidence of the deviousness of those darned anti-semitic terrorists. Be forewarned: the following pictures are not for the faint-hearted.

*Which leads us to Exhibit D: A Keffieh, kitchen knives, a Saudi flag, and and some CD-roms.*






*Do not faint just yet, because here is exhibit E: an electric saw  on a ship! Really, those terrorists really are beyond the pale.*





*Zionists and Israel have a history of faking everything!!! *

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## Xeric

fateh71 said:


> Ok we'll use pakistany and mooslim, I hope you won't have a problem!
> 
> And pak - i is abusive, may be we can use pakee?
> 
> How lame you sound!



Sure, we dont have a problem with the former two words, but do check what pakee means on urban dictionary.


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## notsuperstitious

xeric said:


> Sure, we dont have a problem with the former two words, but do check what pakee means on urban dictionary.



Very kind of you, can you get me a mod's endorsement for the first two? Will be grateful!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fateh just shut up and stick to topic

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## notsuperstitious

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> fateh just shut up and stick to topic



Abu learn to spell.


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## Xeric

You people already got the answer to this issue (in a shut up call) in that thread which was closed, so why still beating about the bush?


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## notsuperstitious

xeric said:


> You people already got the answer to this issue (in a shut up call) in that thread which was closed, so why still beating about the bush?



You guys are purposely diluting this thread by purposely misspelling nouns and flaming. This is nothing but trolling, pls stop.


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## khanz

PR distorts israeli sense of reality

An old Israeli saying describing various less-than-esteemed military leaders says: "He was so stupid that even the other generals noticed." The same derisive remark could be applied almost without exception to the present generation of Israeli politicians. 


Such healthy scepticism among Israelis about the abilities of their military and political leaders has unfortunately ebbed in recent decades. As a result, Israelis are left perplexed as to why their wars, military interventions and armed actions have so often ended in failure since the 1973 war, despite the superiority of their armed forces. 

The latest example of this is the assault on the Gaza aid convoy by naval commandos, a confrontation initiated by Israel which thereby ensured that the convoy's organisers achieved their objectives to a degree beyond their wildest dreams. By using assault troops in a police action against civilians with predictably bloody results Israel managed to focus international attention on its blockade of Gaza, which the world had hitherto largely ignored. The Israeli action infuriated Turkey, once its strongest ally in the region, and strengthened the claim of Hamas to Palestinian leadership. 


The capacity of Israel to shoot itself in the foot needs explanation. From the beginning the operation was idiotic, since Israel was always likely to look bad after any confrontation between &#233;lite troops and civilian protesters. Even more ludicrous is the Israeli explanation that their &#233;lite and heavily armed soldiers were at risk of their lives because they had to use thick gloves to protect their hands when sliding down cables from a helicopter and therefore could not use their weapons. 

The nature of the fiasco should cause little surprise because such botched Israeli military actions have been the norm for years. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon was discredited by the massacre of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Christian militias loosed on them by Israeli army commanders. Syria, not Israel, became the predominant power in Lebanon. In south Lebanon, the Israeli army fought a long and unsuccessful guerrilla war against Hizbollah. The bombardments of Lebanon in 1996 and 2006 left Hizbollah stronger, and a similar attack on Gaza in 2008 failed to weaken Hamas.

The problem is that nobody believes Israeli propaganda as much as Israelis. Pro-Palestinian activists often lament the fluency and mendacity of Israeli spokesmen on the airwaves and the pervasive influence of Israel's supporters abroad. But, in reality, these PR campaigns are Israel's greatest weakness, because they distort Israelis' sense of reality. Defeats and failures are portrayed as victories and successes. 

The slaughter of civilians is justified as a military necessity or somehow the fault of the other side. Opponents are demonised as bloodthirsty terrorists. Comforted by such benign accounts of their activities, Israeli leaders are consumed by arrogance because they come to believe they have never made a mistake. Denial that errors have occurred makes it extremely difficult to sack generals or ministers, however gross their incompetence or record of failure. 

Many Israelis privately take their own propaganda with a pinch of salt, though the number is diminishing. But abroad, the most third-rate Israeli politicians strut before fawning audiences as heroic defenders of the state. Not surprisingly they return home with a dangerously inflated idea of their own abilities and in a perilously self-important mood.

The Israeli propaganda machine, official and private, has been running full throttle in the last few days justifying the assault on the aid convoy to Gaza. Probably spokesmen feel they are performing well given the weakness of their case. In fact, they do nothing but harm to Israel. The greater their success in denying gross and culpable mistakes, the more likely it is that the perpetrators will hold their jobs &#8211; and the more likely it is that the mistakes will be endlessly repeated.

Patrick Cockburn: PR dangerously distorts the Israeli sense of reality - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent


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## Forrest Griffin

FACING A CROWD: A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday. (Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images)

Pictures of the Week: May 9 - May 14 - Photo Journal - WSJ

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## FreekiN

CHECK THIS SH1T OUT

*CNN removed the flotilla incident from the front page and replaced it with an "holocaust story"*







AM I JUST PARANOID? SEE FOR YOURSELF.


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## EyelessInGaza

What angers or irritates some Pakistanis is that Indians seem to have a 'natural' affinity towards Israelis. It's true, we do. We grew up reading about their survival, and their military accomplishments, and it is, for a people who never have had any national or religious conflict with the Jews, hard not to do so. The military ties with Israel are not the main reason many of us support Israel; it's deeper than that.

Note - the Indian government's response has, to my knowledge, never been blatantly pro Israel in matters like the ship incident, so let's leave GOI out of it.

Therefore some Pakistanis accuse us of being chamchas.

What angers or irritates some Indians is that Pakistan seems to have a 'natural' antipathy for Israel, seemingly based on the fact that they are Jews. The hatred seems weird to us, when Pakistan and Israel are thousands of kilometers apart. It seems to us to be based on religious and racism.

That is the reason we end up lining on the other side.

Both POVs have some merit.

But this incident is different, as I will try and analyze in my next post.

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## EyelessInGaza

Based on the facts that we now have - which could change -in my opinion some people on that ship were out to create trouble. 

You can use any logic you like, but when a crowd starts to attack armed soldiers, with a stick, or a knife or a tank, you can expect some retaliation.

But that is not the issue. In Jallianwallah Bagh in 1919, the crowd was obviously breaking the rules. The end result - hundreds of civilians (*who were breaking the law*)killed, not one British Army soldier dead.

At the Dandi March, as I said in an earlier post, scores of civilians (*who were breaking the law*) were brutally assaulted, not one British official so much as a hair out of place.

In any conflict both sides carry some blame. But you have to look at the end result. And the end result was: 9 or more civilians killed, not one Israeli soldier dead.

When we celebrate the Dandi March and Jallianwallah Bagh as stirring chapters in our Independence struggle, it then is not possible, for me, to defend the Israeli action.

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## Kompromat

*Turkey will 'never forgive' Israel*

UPDATED ON:
Friday, June 04, 2010 
03:13 Mecca time, 00:13 GMT

YouTube - Interview with Al Jazeera's Jamal ElShayyal: One of the passengers on the Mavi Marmara

The Turkish president has said that Israel's military raid on civilian aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip has caused "irreparable" damage to his country's relations with Israel, and will "never" be forgiven.

"From now on, Turkish-Israeli ties will never be the same. This incident has left an irreparable and deep scar," Abdullah Gul said in a televised speech on Thursday, as thousands gathered in the streets of Istanbul to pay their respects to the humanitarian activists killed during the raid.

The raid "is not an issue that can be forgotten... or be covered up... Turkey will never forgive this attack," he said. 

Nine people - eight Turks and a US national of Turkish origin- were killed in Monday's pre-dawn raid on the Mavi Mamara, which was carrying aid to Gaza in a bid to break Israel's strangling blockade of the territory.

As their funerals got underway on Thursday, thousands poured onto the streets around the Fatih Mosque in Istanbul, chanting slogans condemning Israel and waving Turkish and Palestinian flags.IN DEPTH


Turkish media estimated the size of the crowd as between 15,000 and 20,000 people, a reflection of the depth of anger in Turkey over the Israeli assault on the ships.

Several imams directed the mourners in prayer as eight of the coffins, draped in Turkish and Palestinian flags, were laid on marble stands for people to pay their respects.

*Shot from above*

The demonstration came as Turkish forensic experts confirmed that the nine activists had been shot dead.

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, who reported from the ship during the raid, confirmed that live ammunition had been used by Israeli commandos as they stormed the ship.

He said that he witnessed some of the killings, and confirmed that at least "one person was shot through the top of the head from [the helicopter] above."

Elshayyal was on the top deck when the ship was attacked and said that within a few minutes of seeing the Israeli helicopters, there were shots being fired from above.

"The first shots [coming from Israeli boats at sea] were tear gas, sound grenades and rubber coated steel bullets," said Eshayyal.

"Live shots came five minutes after that. There was definitely live fire from the air and from the sea as well."

He confirmed that some passengers took apart some of the ship's railings to defend themselves as they saw the Israeli soldiers approaching.

"After the shooting and the first deaths, people put up white flags and signs in English and Hebrew," he said.

"An Israeli [on the ship] asked the soldiers to take away the injured, but they did not and the injured died on the ship."

*Injured flown home*

Earlier on Thursday, three air ambulances landed at a military base in Ankara, the Turkish capital, carrying wounded activists who were transferred from Israeli custody to hospitals in the city.

Hundreds of supporters, including Bulent Arinc, Turkey's deputy prime minister, and several other Turkish politicians, gathered at the airport in Istanbul to welcome the returning activists.

"They faced barbarism and oppression but returned with pride," Arinc told hundreds of jubilant relatives and supporters outside the airport, chanting "God is Great!"

Almost all of the detained passengers on board the flotilla have now been released.

Seven activists wounded in Monday's clashes were still being treated in an Israeli hospital, the Israeli foreign ministry said.

Three others - an Irishman and two women from Australia and Italy - remained in Israel "for technical reasons", the ministry said.

But Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Jerusalem, said that four Palestinian-Israelis also remain in prison.

Our correspondent said that Raed Salah, a leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, was one of those still being held.


*Israel defiant*

Israel has remained defiant over the raid, rejecting calls for an international investigation into the incident, and warning it is ready to intercept another aid ship, the Rachel Corrie, that is due to head for Gaza next week.

Accusing international critics of "hypocrisy," Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, defended the seizure of the aid ships on Wednesday.

"This was not the Love Boat," he said in a televised address to the nation, referring to the vessel boarded by commandos. "It was a hate boat."

"These weren't pacifists, these weren't peace activists, they were violent supporters of terrorism."

Netanyahu said the aim of the flotilla was to break the blockade of Gaza, not to bring aid.

He said that if the blockade ended, ships would bring in thousands of missiles from Iran to be aimed at Israel and beyond, creating what he said would be an Iranian port on the Mediterranean.

"The same countries that are criticising us today should know that they would be targeted tomorrow," Netanyahu said.

However, Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, said the flotilla tragedy only highlights the serious underlying problem - namely, the siege imposed on the Gaza.

He said that the siege was "counter-productive, unsustainable and wrong".

"It punishes innocent civilians," he said, calling for the siege to be lifted immediately.

Turkey will 'never forgive' Israel - Europe - Al Jazeera English


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## Kompromat



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## Meengla

EyelessInGaza said:


> What angers or irritates some Pakistanis is that Indians seem to have a 'natural' affinity towards Israelis. It's true, we do. We grew up reading about their survival, and their military accomplishments, and it is, for a people who never have had any national or religious conflict with the Jews, hard not to do so. The military ties with Israel are not the main reason many of us support Israel; it's deeper than that.



BS!
Till 1991 or so--a large part of 'modern' Indian history from 1947--there were hardly any manifestation of this 'natural affinity'. Indeed, India, as part of NAM (the Non Aligned Movement) rightly rooted for the Palestinians. It may *also be* because India, being part of the Soviet block, rooted for the Palestinians more then.

*It was ALWAYS about which side was buttering the Indian bread.*

These 'grew up reading...' kind of arguments are so fake, so false, so stupid that it is not even a joke. Plain n simple: Just like Indians stabbed Iran in the back during the nuclear-vote, Indians are now trying to piggy-back the prevalent global war against Islamic extremism to finally settle its own geopolitical goals, with Kashmir being the foremost goal.

As I have kept saying: The bloggers here need to note that* Indians are dis-proportionately supportive of Israel in this forum*. They are coming up with the same old excuses of Israeli attack which have been discredited even by many Israelis.
*
Any Arab, or Turk, or Iranian reading these lines should realize that the true hateful nature of these Indian bloggers. 
*

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## fallstuff

EyelessInGaza said:


> What angers or irritates some Pakistanis is that Indians seem to have a 'natural' affinity towards Israelis. It's true, we do. We grew up reading about their survival, and their military accomplishments, and it is, for a people who never have had any national or religious conflict with the Jews, hard not to do so. The military ties with Israel are not the main reason many of us support Israel; it's deeper than that.
> 
> Note - the Indian government's response has, to my knowledge, never been blatantly pro Israel in matters like the ship incident, so let's leave GOI out of it.
> 
> Therefore some Pakistanis accuse us of being chamchas.
> 
> What angers or irritates some Indians is that Pakistan seems to have a 'natural' antipathy for Israel, seemingly based on the fact that they are Jews. The hatred seems weird to us, when Pakistan and Israel are thousands of kilometers apart. It seems to us to be based on religious and racism.
> 
> That is the reason we end up lining on the other side.
> 
> Both POVs have some merit.
> 
> But this incident is different, as I will try and analyze in my next post.



Depends on what time period you grew up. Pre 1990's India is very different then now. Its more like shockingly 180 degrees turn around. 

From the Wiki,



> After decades of non-aligned and pro-Arab policy, *P.V. Narasimha Rao's government formally established relations with Israel in January 1992* and ties between the two nations have flourished since.[2] The two countries regard each other as "strongest and most trusted" allies in Asia based on common democratic values and security interests.[3][4] One extensive study revealed *India to be the most pro-Israeli nation* out of the 13 looked at in the study, all countries considered to be important in the world



Indo-Israeli relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Marxist

fallstuff said:


> Depends on what time period you grew up. Pre 1990's India is very different then now. Its more like shockingly 180 degrees turn around.
> 
> From the Wiki,
> 
> 
> 
> Indo-Israeli relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Many people are condemning Indo-Israel relationship,Israel is one of the best friendly nation to India,second-largest military partner so there is no need to revive our Israel policy.


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## Kompromat




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## Hyde

Israeli apne Nabi ke sagay nahi thay to aur kis ke hon ge 

Good decision by Turkey


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## Kompromat

Zaki said:


> Israeli apne Nabi ke sagay nahi thay to aur kis ke hon ge
> 
> Good decision by Turkey



Absolutely rite zaki.


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## Huda

Black Blood said:


> Absolutely rite zaki.



pata nhi baki muslims countries esa kab kregn


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## Dr.Evil

I have different take on this.

The present situation is too hot in the Turkey and Isreal, *but give it few months every thing will be back to almost normal.*
Even now no drastic steps have been taken by both sides like cutting of business relations.

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## Kompromat

Dr.Evil said:


> I have different take on this.
> 
> The present situation is too hot in the Turkey and Isreal, *but give it few months every thing will be back to almost normal.*
> Even now no drastic steps have been taken by both sides like cutting of business relations.



Maybe you should Educate yourself.

Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel, cancel military drills, calls Security Council meeting


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## Huda

Black Blood said:


> Maybe you should Educate yourself.
> 
> Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel, cancel military drills, calls Security Council meeting



han but kuch time k liye hai ye sub


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## Dr.Evil

Black Blood said:


> Maybe you should Educate yourself.
> 
> Turkey withdraws ambassador to Israel, cancel military drills, calls Security Council meeting



I have seen all that - *they are all cosmetic & temporary*, but nothing irrepairable or earth shattering.

*Turkey has not cancelled its defence deals or other business deals with Israel till date.*

Give it a few months and all the heads will cool down & probably Israel will issue some kind of apology and probably take some steps to ease Gazans life and both Turkey and Isreal will be happy and back to normality.


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## Kompromat

Dr.Evil said:


> I have seen all that - *they are all cosmetic & temporary*, but nothing irrepairable or earth shattering.
> 
> *Turkey has not cancelled its defence deals or other business deals with Israel till date.*
> 
> Give it a few months and all the heads will cool down & probably Israel will issue some kind of apology and probably take some steps to ease Gazans life and both Turkey and Isreal will be happy and back to normality.



I dont want any war between two states , If israel opens the Illegal blockade that is what we all want!


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## Babur Han

In the next Year new Elections going on, the Goverment will gain more Votes from it's islamist Base. The Goverment exploit this accident to strengthen it Popularity.

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## third eye

Skywalker1983 said:


> In the next Year new Elections going on, the Goverment will gain more Votes from it's islamist Base. The Goverment exploit this accident to strengthen it Popularity.



Very apt analysis of the remarks made by the Turk Pres.

Politicians always play for the gallery. 

BTW, I don think it will make a diff to Israel.


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## Jade

Meengla said:


> BS!
> Till 1991 or so--a large part of 'modern' Indian history from 1947--there were hardly any manifestation of this 'natural affinity'. Indeed, India, as part of NAM (the Non Aligned Movement) rightly rooted for the Palestinians. It may *also be* because India, being part of the Soviet block, rooted for the Palestinians more then.
> 
> *It was ALWAYS about which side was buttering the Indian bread.*
> 
> These 'grew up reading...' kind of arguments are so fake, so false, so stupid that it is not even a joke. Plain n simple: Just like Indians stabbed Iran in the back during the nuclear-vote, Indians are now trying to piggy-back the prevalent global war against Islamic extremism to finally settle its own geopolitical goals, with Kashmir being the foremost goal.
> 
> As I have kept saying: The bloggers here need to note that* Indians are dis-proportionately supportive of Israel in this forum*. They are coming up with the same old excuses of Israeli attack which have been discredited even by many Israelis.
> *
> Any Arab, or Turk, or Iranian reading these lines should realize that the true hateful nature of these Indian bloggers.
> *



I would not agree with what EyelessInGaza has to say about reading about their survival, and their military accomplishment etc

Neither do I agree with what you have posted. 

In international relation most things are not black and white but shades of grays. The things you are accusing of India could apply to Pakistan also. 

Nobody is saint here. The only thing that matters is SELF INTEREST. If not for India, what is bonding China and Pakistan? Why Pakistan has opposed Indias entry into OIC? Why does Pakistan use OIC as PR forum for its version on Kashmir? Why Pakistan is opposing Indias presence in Afghanistan, despite Afghanistan being a sovereign country? Why Pakistan asks for parity with India in all matters, in spite of India being totally different than Pakistan? Why Pakistan is interested in internal affairs of India?...I can go on Answer these and you will get the answer for all the accusation you are making against India. 

For your information, India still support the Palestinian cause, in spite of the bonhomie in relationship between India and Israel, neither did India back stabbed Iran on nuclear vote. I do understand Irans dismay on the vote, but India was acting on its goal of denuclearization of the world. India values its relationship with Iran very much. India considers Iran to be its best ally in this region, in spite of the protest made by US or Israel on this issue.


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## Babur Han

> *Reclusive Turkish Imam Criticizes Gaza Flotilla *
> 
> 
> SAYLORSBURG, Pa.Imam Fethullah Gülen, a controversial and reclusive U.S. resident who is considered Turkey's most influential religious leader, criticized a Turkish-led flotilla for trying to deliver aid without Israel's consent.
> 
> Speaking in his first interview with a U.S. news organization, Mr. Gülen spoke of watching news coverage of Monday's deadly confrontation between Israeli commandos and Turkish aid group members as its flotilla approached Israel's sea blockade of Gaza. "What I saw was not pretty," he said. "It was ugly."



Reclusive Turkish Imam Comes Out Against Flotilla - WSJ.com


One of the greatest AKP Supproter critisize the Gaza Flotilla.


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## Kompromat

Skywalker1983 said:


> In the next Year new Elections going on, the Goverment will gain more Votes from it's islamist Base. The Goverment exploit this accident to strengthen it Popularity.



I dont think they would have to mention it or Ardogan needs such an incident to win the elections.

I just support for what Turkey has done , its admirable.


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## sulemani keeda

^^^
Lets see what pakistan and KSA do now.


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## Hussein

they are some people who didn"'t like it in Israel
and they are some people who make fun of dead people




new york fun way???


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## EyelessInGaza

Meengla said:


> BS!
> Till 1991 or so--a large part of 'modern' Indian history from 1947--there were hardly any manifestation of this 'natural affinity'. Indeed, India, as part of NAM (the Non Aligned Movement) rightly rooted for the Palestinians. It may *also be* because India, being part of the Soviet block, rooted for the Palestinians more then.
> 
> *It was ALWAYS about which side was buttering the Indian bread.*
> 
> These 'grew up reading...' kind of arguments are so fake, so false, so stupid that it is not even a joke. Plain n simple: Just like Indians stabbed Iran in the back during the nuclear-vote, Indians are now trying to piggy-back the prevalent global war against Islamic extremism to finally settle its own geopolitical goals, with Kashmir being the foremost goal.
> 
> As I have kept saying: The bloggers here need to note that* Indians are dis-proportionately supportive of Israel in this forum*. They are coming up with the same old excuses of Israeli attack which have been discredited even by many Israelis.
> *
> Any Arab, or Turk, or Iranian reading these lines should realize that the true hateful nature of these Indian bloggers.
> *



Going to office; I will respond here in a few hours.

I do not know how much of this discussion is going to be off topic for this thread; but the fault, if any, is mine because I started it. No doubt the will delete if it veers off course.


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## EjazR

*@Meengla*

Its' in the eye of the beholder. Pakistani conspiracies of the India Israel nexus will gold for some people, but unfortunately that is not the case.

The reality is that Egypt and Jordan recognised Israel before India did. Turkey had much stronger military relations that India did with Israel. And Pakistani generals like Zia-ul-Haq suppressed the Palestinian uprisings during Black September protests and when he was in power, took the soviet weapons for Palestinians captured by Israel to provide to the so-called jihadis fighting the soviets.

The GoI and the Indian people have always supported the two state solution even now.

The proof is in the action. HOW much has Pakistan contributed for the uplift of the Palestinian people? Compare that to the historical contribution of India to the Palestinian people. As they say action speak louder than words.

I hope Arab, Iranian and Turkish members taken note of THAT.


*@EyelessInGaza*
I think that there is a shortage of info for some people in India on what the CURRENT situation is. This is not he same as 1980s. Arabs are ready to recognise Israel, PA and even HAMAS are ready to do the same.
What needs to be done is to end the occupation of West Bank and Gaza. Since 2002, Israel has not been fighting for its survival but has been perpetrating atrocities. One of the reasons why leading Jews and Zionists around the world have been condemning the Govt. of Israel.

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## blain2

> The proof is in the action. HOW much has Pakistan contributed for the uplift of the Palestinian people? Compare that to the historical contribution of India to the Palestinian people. As they say action speak louder than words."



You have no idea how many resolutions at the UN Pakistan has sponsored or co-sponsored on the Palestine issue. In the times of Nehru, India did go to bat for the Palestinians, but after him, this support has constantly been on the decline.

Zia did have a part to play in the 70s uprising in Jordan, but more than made up his relationship with Yasser Arafat who was a regular visitor to Pakistan during Zia's time.

Your fact less points are not helping the discussion much. Pakistan never diverted Israeli captured Palestinian arms to Afghan mujahideen. The Israelis offered captured inventory from Egypt and Syria from the 73 war through an intermediary and Pakistani side rejected these due to sensitivities. This is documented in Charlie Wilson's book but the detractors of Mujahideen and Pakistan keep on bringing this point up to show that these folks are hypocritical because they had no qualms accepting these arms from Israel but bad mouth it. A simple fact is that by the time the Israelis made this offer, the Egyptians were producing Soviet origin equipment in their state factories. This provided the Mujahideen a considerable source of equipment. The CIA placed multiple orders with the Egyptians for the equipment which in turn negated the need for any supply from the Israelis. There was no Palestinian connection here which you seem to have unfortunately conjured up to add to your bash-Pakistan list.

Altogether, Pakistan has always supported the Palestinian cause and continues to do so with the same gusto and vigor today which is quite contrary to India's support which is increasingly becoming marginal by the day as the GoI and the Indian security establishment tries to chummy up to Israel.

Qualitatively, Pakistan's support for the Palestinians, as compared to that of India is much better.

I agree with your point to EyelessinGaza.

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## sulemani keeda

^^^

Muslims in India particularly dont care about palestine so much and they have no issues with Israel as well. 

GOI has no domestic complusion to show unnecessary solidarity with arabs like pakistan has. Hence number of pak sponsored reolutions etc etc.


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## blain2

Forrest Griffin said:


> FACING A CROWD: A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday. (Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images)
> 
> Pictures of the Week: May 9 - May 14 - Photo Journal - WSJ



You can see the arrogance in the faces of these rotten spoilt brats! I am not sure if despite our differences with the Indians, I could ever do something like that to an elderly Indian lady or a female. These people are devoid of even the basics of chivalry and humanity. 

This is the point that is lost on most supporters of Israel. This is not about Israel's survival. Its about the denigration of the Palestinian people. 

One could simply change the clothing of these brats into Nazi SS uniforms and you can well imagine the type of ridicule and humiliation the ancestors of these brats suffered at the hands of the Nazis yet they have learned nothing from the ignominy of the past and do their level best to inflict the same on a people who are poor and constantly suffering.

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## Thomas

blain2 said:


> You have no idea how many resolutions at the UN Pakistan has sponsored or co-sponsored on the Palestine issue. In the times of Nehru, India did go to bat for the Palestinians, but after him, this support has constantly been on the decline.
> 
> Zia did have a part to play in the 70s uprising in Jordan, but more than made up his relationship with Yasser Arafat who was a regular visitor to Pakistan during Zia's time.
> *
> Your fact less points are not helping the discussion much. Pakistan never diverted Israeli captured Palestinian arms to Afghan mujahideen. The Israelis offered captured inventory from Egypt and Syria from the 73 war through an intermediary and Pakistani side rejected these due to sensitivities. This is documented in Charlie Wilson's book but the detractors of Mujahideen and Pakistan keep on bringing this point up to show that these folks are hypocritical because they had no qualms accepting these arms from Israel but bad mouth it. A simple fact is that by the time the Israelis made this offer, the Egyptians were producing Soviet origin equipment in their state factories. This provided the Mujahideen a considerable source of equipment. The CIA placed multiple orders with the Egyptians for the equipment which in turn negated the need for any supply from the Israelis. There was no Palestinian connection here which you seem to have unfortunately conjured up to add to your bash-Pakistan list.*
> 
> Altogether, Pakistan has always supported the Palestinian cause and continues to do so with the same gusto and vigor today which is quite contrary to India's support which is increasingly becoming marginal by the day as the GoI and the Indian security establishment tries to chummy up to Israel.
> 
> Qualitatively, Pakistan's support for the Palestinians, as compared to that of India is much better.
> 
> I agree with your point to EyelessinGaza.



I believe you may have your facts wrong there. A book review of "Charlie Wilsons War" by the Pakistani daily times is as follows.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

*Pakistan got Israeli weapons during Afghan war*

*Daily Times Monitor

WASHINGTON:* Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv, says a recently published book, Charlie Wilson&#8217;s War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History.

The book reveals that the Pakistan Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation with Israel, although it did not acknowledge any contact with that country publicly. Congressman Charles Wilson &#8212; a pro-Pakistan activist and the central figure to get CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan &#8212; is credited in the 550-page book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman &#8220;whom General Ziaul Haq fancied&#8221;.

The book claims that Wilson asked Zia to deal with the Israelis during his first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made at a grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was later named as Honorary Consul of Pakistan.

The book says that Charlie Wilson informed Zia the Israelis had shown him the &#8220;vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon&#8221;. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled, saying, &#8220;Just don&#8217;t put any Stars of David on the boxes&#8221;.

&#8220;With that encouragement,&#8221; the narrative goes on, &#8220;Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese army&#8217;s Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.

&#8220;It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the US embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his people&#8217;s hatred for both Israel and the United States [but] he encouraged Wilson to continue.&#8221;

The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal &#8220;even without CIA knowledge&#8221;. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilson&#8217;s efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it. Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.

The weapon&#8217;s name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.

It was decided that a new weapon would be introduced into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.

The book has been selling well in the USA but is still not available in Pakistan.

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## blain2

sulemani keeda said:


> ^^^
> 
> Muslims in India particularly dont care about palestine so much and they have no issues with Israel as well.
> 
> GOI has no domestic complusion to show unnecessary solidarity with arabs like pakistan has. Hence number of pak sponsored reolutions etc etc.



I am not commenting about the need for India to do anything. Muslims in India matter little if the GoI wants to chummy up to Israel more which is the case on hand. I am simply negating the point that India has done more for Palestine than Pakistan, which was the point that EjazR had made and is not true.


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## Xeric

Thomas said:


> I believe you may have your facts wrong there. A book review of "Charlie Wilsons War" by the Pakistani daily times is as follows.
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> *Pakistan got Israeli weapons during Afghan war*
> 
> *Daily Times Monitor
> 
> WASHINGTON:* Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv, says a recently published book, Charlie Wilsons War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History.
> 
> The book reveals that the Pakistan Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation with Israel, although it did not acknowledge any contact with that country publicly. Congressman Charles Wilson  a pro-Pakistan activist and the central figure to get CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan  is credited in the 550-page book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman whom General Ziaul Haq fancied.
> 
> The book claims that Wilson asked Zia to deal with the Israelis during his first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made at a grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was later named as Honorary Consul of Pakistan.
> 
> The book says that Charlie Wilson informed Zia the Israelis had shown him the vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled, saying, Just dont put any Stars of David on the boxes.
> 
> With that encouragement, the narrative goes on, Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese armys Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.
> 
> It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the US embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his peoples hatred for both Israel and the United States [but] he encouraged Wilson to continue.
> 
> The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal even without CIA knowledge. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilsons efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it. Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.
> 
> The weapons name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.
> 
> It was decided that a new weapon would be introduced into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.
> 
> The book has been selling well in the USA but is still not available in Pakistan.


i havent read the book, but have seen the movie. This story is a bit different that that shown in the film. Zia never directly dealt with israelis instead the yanks diverted the stuff to Pakistan nor did he 'smile' and said Just dont put any Stars of David on the boxes, instead he said (paraphrased) if i saw any/dont you dare put any Star of David on those boxes or that be the end of it.


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> I believe you may have your facts wrong there. A book review of "Charlie Wilsons War" by the Pakistani daily times is as follows.
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> *Pakistan got Israeli weapons during Afghan war*
> 
> *Daily Times Monitor
> 
> WASHINGTON:* Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv, says a recently published book, Charlie Wilson&#8217;s War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History.
> 
> The book reveals that the Pakistan Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation with Israel, although it did not acknowledge any contact with that country publicly. Congressman Charles Wilson &#8212; a pro-Pakistan activist and the central figure to get CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan &#8212; is credited in the 550-page book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman &#8220;whom General Ziaul Haq fancied&#8221;.
> 
> The book claims that Wilson asked Zia to deal with the Israelis during his first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made at a grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was later named as Honorary Consul of Pakistan.
> 
> The book says that Charlie Wilson informed Zia the Israelis had shown him the &#8220;vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon&#8221;. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled, saying, &#8220;Just don&#8217;t put any Stars of David on the boxes&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;With that encouragement,&#8221; the narrative goes on, &#8220;Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese army&#8217;s Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.
> 
> &#8220;It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the US embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his people&#8217;s hatred for both Israel and the United States [but] he encouraged Wilson to continue.&#8221;
> 
> The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal &#8220;even without CIA knowledge&#8221;. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilson&#8217;s efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it. Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.
> 
> The weapon&#8217;s name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.
> 
> It was decided that a new weapon would be introduced into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.
> 
> The book has been selling well in the USA but is still not available in Pakistan.



Read your own article more carefully please. I have read the book a couple of times over and am not wrong on my facts or the general gist here. 



> The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal &#8220;even without CIA knowledge&#8221;. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilson&#8217;s efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, *insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it.* Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.
> 
> The weapon&#8217;s name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.



Afghan Mujahideen never got anything from the Israeli stock of captured Palestinian/arab arms. The Israelis opened up the stocks to show captured Egyptian and other Arab hardware but there were no takers. My point about the source of weaponry from Egypt stands.

If you read the book, it mentions nothing about the Spanish mortar doing much fighting because the system was found to be too complicated for use by the Mujahideen and not pushed out (meeting the same fate as the useless Blowpipe SAM and many other systems like Oerlikon AAA which required a company of donkeys to move it into an area of interest). So please understand that while there may have been some pushers, the fact stands Pakistan at no time accepted any Israeli origin equipment and nothing of the sorts made it out to the groups fighting the Soviets.


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## pkd

Forrest Griffin said:


> FACING A CROWD: A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday. (Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images)
> 
> Pictures of the Week: May 9 - May 14 - Photo Journal - WSJ



Very sadistic scums.

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## Kompromat

third eye said:


> Very apt analysis of the remarks made by the Turk Pres.
> 
> Politicians always play for the gallery.
> 
> *BTW, I don think it will make a diff to Israel.*



You are right People with Nazi mentality wont understand words , "Laton kay bhoot baton se Nhi Mantay".


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## Kompromat

Hussein said:


> they are some people who didn"'t like it in Israel
> and they are some people who make fun of dead people
> YouTube - Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World
> new york fun way???



Its one big propaganda video which zionists are really good at.


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## IceCold

sulemani keeda said:


> ^^^
> Lets see what pakistan and KSA do now.



Pakistan has already condemned the incident and also was able to bring Pakistanis back home safely. Nothing more should be expected and rightly so.

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## LegionnairE

Dr.Evil said:


> I have different take on this.
> 
> The present situation is too hot in the Turkey and Isreal, *but give it few months every thing will be back to almost normal.*
> Even now no drastic steps have been taken by both sides like cutting of business relations.



You are so wrong my friend, people in Turkey never liked Israel because of their actions against palestinans but I always said:

"I dont care palestine, they been a traitor to Ottoman Empire, after hundereds of years they been protected by the empire they rewarded it by killing Turks, now let them burn in their own hell"

But now, Israel spilled Turkish blood, They will pay dearly for this 

And im calm if you compare me with others, You can see this anger in every face you see in here

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## Parashuram1

Take it down; there's going to be no war. A maximum of political standoff will continue for a few months whereby United States will intervene this. United States always does intervene where it feels their boat is close to dangerous waters.

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## Thomas

@blain2

The underlined portion is taken from the book and goes on further to state.

"The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal even without CIA knowledge. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilsons efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, *insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it*."

here is what is left out. *"Yet right under hart's nose, Wilson had proposed just such an arrangement, and Zia and his high command had signed on to implement it."*

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## Tiger Awan

Dr.Evil said:


> I have different take on this.
> 
> The present situation is too hot in the Turkey and Isreal, *but give it few months every thing will be back to almost normal.*
> Even now no drastic steps have been taken by both sides like cutting of business relations.



o really???

You kill some one and even do not feel guilty and things will be normal in few months???


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## blain2

Thomas said:


> @blain2
> 
> The underlined portion is taken from the book and goes on further to state.
> 
> "The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal even without CIA knowledge. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilsons efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, *insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it*."
> 
> here is what is left out. *"Yet right under hart's nose, Wilson had proposed just such an arrangement, and Zia and his high command had signed on to implement it."*



Thomas,

There is more to it in the 400 plus page book. I stand by what I have stated. The interesting thing about the book is the details around what was provided, how it was used or not used. Certainly quite a bit more detail than any other account of the Afghan war in English.


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## Dr.Evil

LegionnairE said:


> "I dont care palestine, *they been a traitor to Ottoman Empire, after hundereds of years they been protected by the empire *they rewarded it by killing Turks, now let them burn in their own hell"



Wasn't the case more like they were occupied and a colony of Ottaman empire and all the Arabs wanted was freedom from the empire.


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## hillman32

Turkey is a great country and Turks are great Nation.

I admire them.

I support them on Palestinian Cause. Israel is a Global Terrorist Illegal State.

All Pakistanis are with me on this Issue.

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## LegionnairE

Dr.Evil said:


> Wasn't the case more like they were occupied and a colony of Ottaman empire and all the Arabs wanted was freedom from the empire.


We protected them from crusades, They preferred british against us...
Thats the case

But yea, you are right, let them live their freedom now

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## hillman32

LegionnairE said:


> We protected them from crusades, They preferred british against us...
> Thats the case
> 
> But yea, you are right, let them live in freedom now




*It was the dirty job of Jews and British Government who ensured disintegration of Ottoman Empire. Remember Colonel Lawrence od Arabia. 

British knew that the Empire was a super power of future so it was cut and was cut in small pieces. Famous Divide and Rule.

Alas, had Ottoman was there once Oil was discovered and what Muslim Ummah had been now ? - a prosperous, educated and excelling Uni-Polar Super Power of the World.*

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## Pasban

Here is the Zionist's "democracy" at work in Occupied Palestine.

The members of the Knesset were calling for the death of Haneen Al-Zoubi, the Israeli-Arab parliamentarian member of the National Democratic Alliance who was on Mavi Marmara.
They tried to beat her up.


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## xenia

^^u r a bit optimistic..arabs were equally responsible for disintegration of ottoman.they (britishers) even promised same area to 2 brothers (sory cant recall their names) n both of them conspired with them...secondly it was the time when nomads succesfully attacked n captured arabia..what u would have expected from them?
but the biggest conspiracy was formation of jewish state without even consulting the palestinians as if those idiots had inherited this land!


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## Solomon2

From what I understand from my reading of international law, this is a bilateral matter between Israel and Turkey, and the only court that can be held on it is on the soil of the belligerent who seized the ships - that is, Israel. No "international inquiry" required.


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## xenia

Solomon2 said:


> From what I understand from my reading of international law, this is a bilateral matter between Israel and Turkey, and the only court that can be held on it is on the soil of the belligerent who seized the ships - that is, Israel. No "international inquiry" required.


n from my understanding the case easily falls within jurisdiction of ICJ..now dot twist intl law to suit your purpose!


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## Solomon2

Not an ICC issue, falls under law of the sea and all that. See Prize Court.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

and the one man show continues ..!


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## FreekiN

Norman Finkelstein vs Zionist dude


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## T-Faz

*Al Jazeera Reporter: Israel Fired On Gaza-Bound Ship Before Boarding *

A reporter and producer for the Arabic news organization Al Jazeera who was on board the Gaza-bound aid flotilla during Monday's deadly raid gave a firsthand account of the grisly scene aboard the ship to the network Thursday.

According to Jamal ElShayyal's account of the raid, the Israeli military had fired on the Mavi Marmara before boarding the ship. "It was evident there was definitely fire from the air, because one of the people who was killed was clearly shot from above -- he was shot, the bullet targeted him at the top of his head," ElShayyal said. "There was also fire coming from the sea as well." This account differs from the one given by the Israeli military.

The reporter also describes being mistreated by officials alongside other civilians before his Thursday release.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

what the hell is this nonsense:






> It would be regrettable to break ties with Turkey, but the blockade is right and should continue, as it does not prevent harmless aid from entering *but stops materials which would be used for rockets (like cement and sugar) reaching Hamas. *
> Our country is just taking action to protect us, its people.



BBC News - Gaza aid flotilla: Israeli reaction




really????????

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## FreekiN

*Israeli Radio reporting that all satellite signals have been jammed by the Israeli authorities.
*

Twitter
Twitter

EDIT: 

THEY ARE TRYING TO BOARD THE VESSEL.


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## fallstuff

Pasban said:


> Here is the Zionist's "democracy" at work in Occupied Palestine.
> 
> The members of the Knesset were calling for the death of Haneen Al-Zoubi, the Israeli-Arab parliamentarian member of the National Democratic Alliance who was on Mavi Marmara.
> They tried to beat her up.
> 
> YouTube - My Video



Had she been attacked, they probably would have prosecuted her for instigating the attack, and also charge her with contempt of Knesset. Her home would have been demolished, and the attacking Knesset members would be declared national heros.


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## sulemani keeda

Autopsy shows Gaza activists were hit 30 times: Report​

LONDON: Nine Turkish activists killed in an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship were shot a total of 30 times and five died of gunshot wounds to the head, Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Friday. 

Autopsy results showed the men were hit mostly with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range, the Guardian said, quoting Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine which carried out the autopsies on Friday. 

Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships planning to break the Israeli sea blockade of Gaza on Monday. The deaths, which all took place on one ship, the Mavi Marmara, drew widespread condemnation. 

Israel said the marines who rappelled onto the Mavi Marmara fired in self-defence after activists attacked them with clubs and knives as well as two pistols snatched from the commandos. 

The autopsy results showed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, the Guardian said. 

A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has U.S. citizenship, was shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, it said. 

Two other men were shot four times. Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, the Guardian quoted Buyuk as saying. 

In addition to those killed, 48 others suffered gunshot wounds and six activists were still missing, he added. 

Israel said the multiple gunshot wounds did not mean the shots were fired other than in self defence. 

"The only situation when a soldier shot was when it was a clearly a life-threatening situation," the Guardian quoted a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London as saying. 

"Pulling the trigger quickly can result in a few bullets being in the same body, but does not change the fact they were in a life-threatening situation," the spokesman said. 

The newspaper quoted Haluk Ince, chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, as saying that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other body showed multiple wounds. 

He said all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, Ince said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain." 

No-one at Turkey's forensic laboratory could immediately be reached for comment. 

Turkey, Israel's only Muslim ally, stepped up its rhetoric over the killings on Friday, accusing the Jewish state of betraying its own biblical law. 

Autopsy shows Gaza activists were hit 30 times: Report - Middle East - World - The Times of India

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## sulemani keeda

^^^
This particular incidence is condemnable.

1) The raid should have been carried in daytime and not in darkness of night.
2) The Intelligence should have been cross verified since it involved participation of citizens other than Israel and Gaza
3) Israel has right to defend itself in any manner it deems fit, whether legal or illegal. Its interception of flotilla is justified but not at the cost of killing innocents.


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## Marxist

*Flotilla raid goes viral as Israel floods YouTube*

ERUSALEM (AFP) &#8211; Israel may have lost the initial PR battle over its deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship, but it is fighting back with a barrage of video clips in a bid to prove activists initiated the violence.

Days after the botched attack which killed nine Turks, the fight over what exactly happened on board the ferry is still raging on YouTube, with both sides posting more and more clips on the video-sharing website to support their case.

It was chaotic footage of Israeli troops storming the Turkish-owned Mavi Marmara which first caught the world's attention.

Streaming Internet video of bloodied passengers and reporters issuing urgent calls for help were transmitted in real time from the deck of the ship.

The commandos eventually disconnected the feed but the damage was done, provoking a wave of global outrage which has dealt a harsh blow to Israel's image.

Israel says its troops were violently attacked as they dropped onto the Mavi Marmara, and only shot back in self-defence. The activists say the commandos started shooting as soon as they arrived, prompting those on board to act in self-defence.

Faced with a diplomatic backlash, Israel cranked up its propaganda machine, uploading a slew of video clips to YouTube to support its version of events.

Grainy images of elite commandos taking a beating at the hands of Turkish activists turned out to be one of Israel's most unlikely propaganda successes.

"Over 1.6 million people watched that footage. You also saw it used on blogs and in forums," said Lieutenant Aliza Landes, head of the Israeli military's new media desk.

In another clip, taken from the ship's security cameras, activists can be seen preparing for a confrontation.

"In that footage you can see them handing out metal batons and putting on masks, and you can see the light of the boat approaching so it's clear that they were preparing for a fight," said Landes.

"YouTube is the best tool we have as video gives the most powerful information," said Landes.

Israel has, however, come under fire for using "pirated" footage to defend its botched raid -- material confiscated from journalists who were on board the ship.

An interview with a passenger who says he wants to be "a martyr" is shown in a clip not credited to any media outlet, and only described as "footage captured on the Gaza flotilla."

The army refused to say whether the footage would be returned.

Twitter has also been widely used by both sides, with the microblogging site flooded with Tweets as the raid happened, most of them posted by the flotilla organisers commenting on the live Internet feed.

But none of the Tweets actually originated from the boat. And Israel has so far only used the service to distribute official information rather than as a breaking news tool.

Chaim Shacham, director of information at the foreign ministry, says Israel is becoming more aware of the digital media battlefield.

"In this case, it was very clear to us that it would be a race for footage," he told AFP, saying that the navy had cameramen in the helicopters and patrol boats.

Getting footage was part of the operational plan, he said.

All the clips put out by Israel have been rigorously edited, have no timestamp and show only scenes which vindicate the Israeli account without explaining what happened before, or after.

Shacham dismisses claims the footage provides a distorted image of events.

"The footage from the ship immediately put things into context -- it told the story of the soldiers as well as the protesters, clearly showing the soldiers rappelling down and getting beaten," he said.

While some of the footage had not been very "convenient" for Israel, much of it vindicated the troops' account, said Shacham.

"The Arabic and Turkish footage is very revealing: it shows the jihadists on the ship were intending to beat the hell out of the soldiers," he said, pointing to interviews with Bulent Yildirim, head of the Turkish charity IHH.

But analyst Yariv Ben Eliezer believes Israel's online efforts were too little, too late.

"We lost the propaganda war before we even started," said Ben Eliezer, a propaganda management expert at the IDC centre in Herzliya. "We are considered by the world to be Goliath and the 'humanitarian' activists are considered to be David, so it's a lose-lose situation."

Israel, he says, should have done its homework and exposed activists aboard the ferry as "extremists" long before they set sail.

"It's not effective now because nobody wants to listen." 

Flotilla raid goes viral as Israel floods YouTube - Yahoo! News


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## Comet

sulemani keeda said:


> ^^^
> This particular incidence is condemnable.
> 
> 1) The raid should have been carried in daytime and not in darkness of night.
> 2) The Intelligence should have been cross verified since it involved participation of citizens other than Israel and Gaza
> 3) Israel has right to defend itself in any manner it deems fit, whether legal or illegal. Its interception of flotilla is justified but not at the cost of killing innocents.



1) The raid should not have been taken in the first place
2) Israel has no right to see who is visiting Gaza and who isn't.
3) No. It was a clear aggression against civilians that too in International waters.


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## EjazR

blain2 said:


> You have no idea how many resolutions at the UN Pakistan has sponsored or co-sponsored on the Palestine issue. In the times of Nehru, India did go to bat for the Palestinians, but after him, this support has constantly been on the decline.
> 
> Zia did have a part to play in the 70s uprising in Jordan, but more than made up his relationship with Yasser Arafat who was a regular visitor to Pakistan during Zia's time.


Sponsoring resolutions is mere rhetoric my friend. How does that help Palestinians on the ground. Is Israel following those resolutions? I'm talking about direct actions that have helped the Palestinians here. 
How much monetary aid to Palestine? How many schools and hospitals has Pakistan sponsored? How many university scholarships provided? Is this also not part of the help to Palestinians?

Zia played his part, but why do that in the first place? Even the Israeli weapons transfer have been mentioned in other places but lets leave that as speculation. 
Although its quite possible that Zia insisted on their being no overt connection with Israel as long as he gets the arms. A dictator does not really have to take the public into confidence. the Pakistani people might have cared a lot for Palestinians. But Zia was thinking that he is fighting a war and using soviet marked weapons to kill soviet soldiers would be great. Egyptian produced weapons would have Egyptian markings and would be easily linked to Egypt as compared to the directly shipped weapons to the Palestinians.

The problem is some people like Mengla see any "perceived" feelings of neglect by India to the Palestinians and then shout that look at India's two faced dealings--they are actually Israel's best friends.

And fully ignoring the fact that Turkey has been the only Muslim country to be an Israeli ally and not only held joint military exercises but co-produced and did R&D on defense with them. Any condemnation about that?

I am just trying to highlight the hypocritical way some Pakistanis are portraying this although I appreciate others who do not.

The reason of this ambiguity with Zia in Jordan and Turkey and Israel being best friends is the Cold War backdrop but I won't go into that here.



blain2 said:


> Altogether, Pakistan has always supported the Palestinian cause and continues to do so with the same gusto and vigor today which is *quite contrary to India's support which is increasingly becoming marginal by the day as the GoI* and the Indian security establishment tries to chummy up to Israel.
> 
> Qualitatively, Pakistan's support for the Palestinians, as compared to that of India is much better.



What you have to understand is in India, you will hear all kinds of voices but only the consensus will move forward. There will be fringe Muslims who will be calling for the destruction of Israel and that it doesn't have any right to exist assuming this is their way of showing full support to the Palestinians on one hand to the fringe Hindus who will call for unconditional support for Israel only because of their "perceived" shared hatred of anything Muslim with the Israelis.
And then you have everything in between.

But the consensus is that Palestine is not just a Muslim-Jew issue, but a humanitarian issue. Not just Indian Muslims but Indians of all faiths have and are protesting against Israeli actions peacefully, not burning tires or cars in anger.

And this consensus will eventually be shown by the GoI. Lets leave aside the historical stuff where India is a regular contributor to UNRWA-even in the BJP-led regime. Just in 2009, India provided $20million in aid to Palestine as well as voted FOR the Goldstein report on the war crimes investigation for Gaza. So I fail to understand how Indian support has been "reduced". Supporting Palestinians does not mean just calling for the end of Israel. India might not support HAMAS, but neither does majority of the Arab states including Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Jordan because of its arrogant and destructive policies. This does not mean that either of these countries don't have a soft corner for Palestinians and infact it was KSA who came up with the 2002 Arab peace plan and instrumental in George Bush publicly declaring American policy for the first time for a two state solution.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of Pakistan (comparing with India) providing such development aid directly or to UNRWA either now or before. 

Here is a article on Abbas' visit to India in 2008 that provides a recent overview.
*India Stands Committed To Palestinian Cause*


I'm just tired of *some* Pakistanis making hypocritical statements probably based on inane posts by some Indians as well on what GoI or India as a whole stands for on the Israeli-Palestine issue. Fringe opinions of blaming everything of Palestinians is not mainstream in India. And of course, I hope a similar opinion of blaming everything on Israelis should be there either.

But in this case, Israel has no excuse to go shooting multiples time at activists at all. And that has been the GoI stand as well. That force in this case cannot be justified.


Hopefully this puts it in the perspective

-----------------------
There is actually a running thread here
*http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/58459-indian-aid-palestine.html*
Again the objective is not to boast about this, but inform.


----------



## Spring Onion

For all the terrorists supporters of terrorist state of Israel 


*Autopsy shows Gaza activists were hit 30 times: Report*

LONDON: *Nine Turkish activists killed in an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship were shot a total of 30 times and five died of gunshot wounds to the head, Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Friday. 
*
Autopsy results showed the men were hit mostly with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range, the Guardian said, quoting Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine which carried out the autopsies on Friday. 

Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships planning to break the Israeli sea blockade of Gaza on Monday. The deaths, which all took place on one ship, the Mavi Marmara, drew widespread condemnation. 

Israel said the marines who rappelled onto the Mavi Marmara fired in self-defence after activists attacked them with clubs and knives as well as two pistols snatched from the commandos. 

*The autopsy results showed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, the Guardian said. 

A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has U.S. citizenship, was shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, it said. 

Two other men were shot four times. Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, the Guardian quoted Buyuk as saying. 

In addition to those killed, 48 others suffered gunshot wounds and six activists were still missing, he added. 
*
Israel said the multiple gunshot wounds did not mean the shots were fired other than in self defence. 

"The only situation when a soldier shot was when it was a clearly a life-threatening situation," the Guardian quoted a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London as saying. 

"Pulling the trigger quickly can result in a few bullets being in the same body, but does not change the fact they were in a life-threatening situation," the spokesman said. 

The newspaper quoted Haluk Ince, chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, as saying that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other body showed multiple wounds. 

He said all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, Ince said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain." 

No-one at Turkey's forensic laboratory could immediately be reached for comment. 

Turkey, Israel's only Muslim ally, stepped up its rhetoric over the killings on Friday, accusing the Jewish state of betraying its own biblical law.

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## sulemani keeda

^^^^
Already posted above.


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## TaimiKhan

Well the autopsy report news above very much tells that these people were killed as a result of hate and not in self defence and perfectly shows these people were executed point blank.

And the news of one commando getting a medal for killing six innocent humans also shows how the killing happened and why. 

Well this is the level of the IDF soldiers and the commandos.

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## FreekiN

After the terrorist attack on the Freedom Flotilla by Israel, people around the world have stood up and protested the Gaza Blockade.

Palestine, the world is with you!

Say thanks! 

Vienna





Tokyo








Spain




Libya




Phillipines




Paris

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## FreekiN

New York




Marseilles




Malaysia




Lebanon




Korea








*Karachi, PAKISTAN!!!*

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## FreekiN

Jordan




Italy




Iraq




India












Greece




Germany

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## FreekiN

France




Egypt




Capetown, southafrica




California




Bulgaria




Britain




Brazil




Australia

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## FreekiN

Argentina

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## T-Faz

, if only the people of my nation spend more time working. However this is the best and most creative.

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## Hyde

thanks FreekiN wonderful pictures

Thanks a lot


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## FreekiN

[/COLOR]


T-Faz said:


> , if only the people of my nation spend more time working. However this is the best and most creative.



Yeah, I said the same thing. 

An American flag on top of a donkey which is standing on a shoe-laden Israeli flag. 

Epic.

My pleasure, Zaki.


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## Shaheen 2

Wow, some members love standing up for palestinians rights more than they do for for Kashmiris rights. Interesting.......


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## FreekiN

Shaheen 2 said:


> Wow, some members love standing up for palestinians rights more than they do for for Kashmiris rights. Interesting.......



Did anything lately happen in Kashmir? No? Then stop being so ignorant.

Pakistan First.


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## Shaheen 2

FreekiN said:


> Did anything lately happen in Kashmir? No? Then stop being so ignorant.
> 
> Pakistan First.



nonsensical trolling....


----------



## FreekiN

Shaheen 2 said:


> nonsensical trolling....



...is all you can do.


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## Shaheen 2

A brilliant satire:

Israel Global PR (IsraelGlobalPR) on Twitter



> To those concerned about the blockade, we remind you that Gaza isn't the only place that has muslims
> about 7 hours ago via web
> 
> Israel accepts responsibility for the generous amount of aid delivered to Gaza, and deplores Hamas's refusal to accept it
> about 12 hours ago via web
> 
> Israel wishes to thank Ireland and the Freedom Flotilla for the continued supply of construction materials for Israeli settlements
> about 13 hours ago via web
> 
> Israel has taken control of Rachel Corrie and captured the terrorists on-board
> about 13 hours ago via web
> 
> *Israel apologises for the death of a US citizen aboard the flotilla, however we must state that the individual was not white*
> 9:28 AM Jun 3rd via web
> 
> US citizens from the flotilla have been released. USA, please try to control our taxpayers.
> 6:26 PM Jun 2nd via web


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## Shaheen 2

FreekiN said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Yeah, I said the same thing.
> 
> An American flag on top of a donkey which is standing on a shoe-laden Israeli flag.
> 
> Epic.
> 
> My pleasure, Zaki.



lol, what a hypocrite, insulting the nation that she lives in.


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## Kompromat

Nice one Kiddo but Pakistanis are the best of all aint we


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## Kompromat

*Protests in Melbourne and Sydney against Israel and the Gaza blockade*



Further protests in Australian cities at Israel's continuing violent blockade of Gaza. As the MV Rachel Corrie was being intercepted by Israeli commandos for running the Israeli blockade of Gaza, thousand of people were gathering in Sydney and Melbourne to protest Israel's Monday attack on the flotilla of 6 ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza that resulted in the death of 9 innocent volunteers. 

Related: Australian Gaza activist still in intensive care | Cyprus Indymedia: Israeli Commandos Stormed Aid Ship to Gaza MV Rachel Corrie | Melbourne Photos, Melbourne Video | Sydney Video | Initial Australian protests 

In Melbourne the crowd gathered outside the State Library in raincoats and umbrellas to escape the passing rain showers. 

A spokeperson for the Turkish community in Australia launched the speeches condemning Israel: 

"On behalf of the Australian Turkish Institute, a representative body of the Turkish people living in Australia, I condemn you. I condemn you for killing nine innocent people. I condemn you for wounding and mentally scarring so many more." 

"It is amazing that the once persecuted have become the persecutors. The persecutors of those who guarded them, and sheltered them for hundreds of years." 

"I must point out that the problem does not lie with the wider Israeli or Jewish community. We know that there are so many of you Israelis out there who have commonsense and condemn these acts as much as we do. We commend you. The problem here is with your administration which has been engaged in a systematic and murderous campaign against the Palestinians and anybody who has offered to help them." 

"It is with the administration who gave the orders for the Israeli commandos to attack a defenceless flotilla which was carrying aid to so many people who need it." 

"We fully support a United Nations led multi-lateral investigation of the attack on the flotilla and subsequent murder of nine innocent people." 

"All those involved who have played a part in this decision to attack the flotilla, all those in the chain of command, must be brought to justice." 


Other speakers included Colleen Hartland, Victorian Greens MLC and Kevin Bracken President of the Victorian Trades Hall Council and State Secretary of the Maritime Union of Australia, and members of the muslim community. 

Kevin Bracken told the crowd "The Collective punishment being put on the people of Gaza is so reminiscent of what we heard the Nazis were doing in the Second World War. On behalf of the Victorian Trade Union Movement we stand with you in solidarity, for justice for the Palestinians, and to brake the blockade on Gaza." 

After speeches the crowd marched down Swanston Street and up Bourke street to outside Victorian Parliament House where further speeches from representatives of Australia Asia Worker Links and FAMSY were made. 

After the end of the protest, as if on queue, the showers morphed into persistent rain as people went home. 

In Sydney a crowd gathered at the Sydney Town Hall and during the protest burnt an Israeli flag. Both the Sydney and Melbourne protests acknowledged those killed with a minute of silence. 

Off the coast of Gaza, Israeli Defence Force commandos boarded the MV Rachel Corrie carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza. The crew and passengers did not offer any resistance according to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The ship is now being taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod. 

Read the Free Gaza media release on the seizure of the MV Rachel Corrie on Cyprus Indymedia: Israeli Commandos Stormed Aid Ship to Gaza MV Rachel Corrie

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## Kompromat

lebenon.







Jordan







Indonesia






France.






Chile






Bosnia.






Romania.


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## Kompromat

Pakistan:







Yamen.






Venzuvela 





United States






Turkey




Syria





Spain


South Africa


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## Kompromat

[/IMG]


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## john9802

yeah good, i was thinking why no one was trying to stop israel. 

btw, pakistan's was BY FAR the funniest and the most creative, no joke. lol. the only one that made me lol. when i saw that i scrolled up to see which country did that and there it was.. our pakistan lol.


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## Awesome

Shaheen 2 said:


> Wow, some members love standing up for palestinians rights more than they do for for Kashmiris rights. Interesting.......


Buddy I understand that the overall situation in Kashmir is probably worse than what it is for the Palestinians, but this latest atrocity of Israel takes the cake. Basically they are committing genocide and trying to kill off all the people through their blockade.

They are preventing any sort of aid to go through, no food, no clothes, no medicines. If we don't protest pretty soon millions of people will start dying.


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## FreekiN




----------



## Aslan

Turkish medics carry a wounded activist released after Israeli soldiers stormed an aid convoy on its way to Gaza

Robert Fisk: The truth behind the Israeli propaganda

I have, of course, been outraged at armed men boarding ships in international waters, killing passengers on board who attempt to resist and then forcing their ship to the hijackers' home port. I am, of course, talking about the Somali pirates who are preying on Western ships in the Indian Ocean. How dare those terrorists dare to touch our unarmed vessels on the high seas? And how right we are to have our warships there to prevent such terrorist acts.

But whoops! *At least the Israelis have not demanded ransom*. *They just want to get journalists to win the propaganda war for them. Scarcely had the week begun when Israel's warrior "commandos" stormed a Turkish boat bringing aid to Gaza and shot nine of the passengers dead*. Yet by week's end, *the protesters had become "armed peace activists", vicious anti-Semites "professing pacifism, seething with hate, pounding away at another human being with a metal pole". I liked the last bit. The fact that the person being beaten was apparently shooting another human being with a rifle didn't quite get into this weird version of reality.*

Turkish family protests that their sons wanted to be martyrs  something which most Turkish family members might say if their relatives had been shot by the Israelis  had been transformed into confirmation that they had been *jihadis*. "*On that aid ship*," a Sri Lankan texted me this week, *"I had my niece, nephew and his wife on board. Unfortunately Ahmed (20-year-old nephew) got shot in the leg and now treated (sic) under military custody*. I will keep you posted." He did indeed. Within hours, the press was at his family's home in Australia, demanding to know if Ahmed was a jihadi  or even a potential suicide bomber. Propaganda works, you see. *We haven't seen a frame of film from the protesters because the Israelis have stolen the lot*. No one has told us  if the *Turkish ship was carrying such ruthless men*  *how their terrible plots to help the "terrorists" of Gaza were not uncovered in the long voyage from Turkey, even when it called at other ports*. But Professor *Gil Troy of McGill University in Montreal  in the rabid Canadian National Post, of course  was able to spout all that gunk about "armed peace activists" on Thursday*.

Robert Fisk: The truth behind the Israeli propaganda - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

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## notsuperstitious

IDF troops shown bleeding in Turkish press - Israel News, Ynetnews

Turkish press shows bleeding Israeli commandos. IDF says vindicates their actions.


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## Contrarian

Khan007 said:


> The whole world has its guns on Israel. Israel you're fcuked up big time



They are not turned on Israel. They are angry at Israel because a responsible and influential country ie Turkey is angry. Had their been no Turkey, there would have been the usual condemnations against Israel and that's it.


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## Aslan

malaymishra123 said:


> They are not turned on Israel. They are angry at Israel because a responsible and influential country ie Turkey is angry. Had their been no Turkey, there would have been the usual condemnations against Israel and that's it.



Well that goes on to show the hypocrisy of the world that we live in today, that if you have some power you get your voice heard. You dont! then sorry buddy you have the right to be persecuted and killed at will.


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## Aslan

fateh71 said:


> IDF troops shown bleeding in Turkish press - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> Turkish press shows bleeding Israeli commandos. IDF says vindicates their actions.



And that will justifies the point blank shooting of people?


----------



## Aslan

Spokesperson's Office expressed its satisfaction with the Turkish newspapers' decision to publish the photos. "This is clear proof of Israel's repeated claims, that the boat was carrying mercenaries, whose sole purpose was to kill the soldiers.

"The images could have been different, had the soldiers chosen to shoot any civilian who approached them. Thanks to their strength and deep understanding of the event, the Navy Commandos managed to distinguish between a peace activist and a terrorist."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3899513,00.html

The above is what the News paper article had to say!
I think this proves Fisks point well!

*But whoops! At least the Israelis have not demanded ransom. They just want to get journalists to win the propaganda war for them. Scarcely had the week begun when Israel's warrior "commandos" stormed a Turkish boat bringing aid to Gaza and shot nine of the passengers dead. Yet by week's end, the protesters had become "armed peace activists", vicious anti-Semites "professing pacifism, seething with hate, pounding away at another human being with a metal pole". I liked the last bit. The fact that the person being beaten was apparently shooting another human being with a rifle didn't quite get into this weird version of reality.
*

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...th-behind-the-israeli-propaganda-1991803.html


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## sraja

Check out the pictures of peace terrorists mob trying to lynch, beating up Israeli soldiers. 

Photos from Turkish magazine Hurriyet

&#221;srail'in sildi&#240;i Foto&#240;raflar / 1 - H&#252;rriyet


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## sraja

Turkish paper shows 'censored' photos of bloodied Israeli commandos
Posted : Sun, 06 Jun 2010 09:05:19 GMT
By : dpa
Category : Middle East (World)
News Alerts by Email ( click here )
Middle East World News | Home


Print this article email this article Comment on this article
Istanbul - One of Turkey's largest daily newspapers Sunday published photos of bloodied Israeli commandos from last week's botched raid on a Gaza aid flotilla that the paper said had been originally censored by Israel.

The series of photos in Hurriyet show Israeli commandos beaten and bleeding on the Mavi Marmara, a cruise ship bought by a Turkish NGO that led the flotilla where nine people were killed and dozens injured during last Monday's raid.

One of the photos in the newspaper shows an injured commando being led down into the ship, while another shows two passengers standing by a door holding metal bars.

According to Hurriyet, the photos were recovered after being erased by Israeli authorities from a memory card belonging to a passenger.

A statement released by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the "published pictures serve as clear and unequivocal proof of Israel's repeated arguments that aboard (the Mavi Marmara) were mercenaries who intended to kill Israeli soldiers."

"The photos would have looked different if the soldiers had chosen to shoot every citizen that came their way," the statement said.

The flotilla incident has led to a crisis in the relationship between Turkey and Israel, once close allies, with Turkish officials threatening to review or even cut diplomatic ties.

Turkish officials have also called for Israel to apologize for the incident, something Jerusalem has said it will not do. 

Turkish paper shows 'censored' photos of bloodied Israeli commandos | Earth Times News


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## Spring Onion

Terrorist state of Israel and their supporters :tubdown:


Israel immediatly took to Youtube for spreading lies

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## mjnaushad

The thing is not That they retaliate. Attacking in International waters is act of war. Can't you put this in your empty minds. Who gave them the right to attack that ship in the first place.??

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## rameez ahmed

sraja said:


> Check out the pictures of peace terrorists mob trying to lynch, beating up Israeli soldiers.
> 
> Photos from Turkish magazine Hurriyet
> 
> Ýsrail'in sildiði Fotoðraflar / 1 - Hürriyet



this is what the Israeli deserves to be treated like... at least some soldiers were treated in the way they treat Palestinians...

By the way *they were peace activist*... But if in *international waters* , any one aboard my ship illegally in the way Israeli did, I will definitely react in some way to save my ship.. Anybody will react in that way so save their property.....

that is what the activist did and they had every right to do so because this pathetic act of Israel was *PIRACY* .... 

Israel can't defends itself with these pictures because the dead bodies of activists are the example of Israeli terrorism.... *They even killed a nineteen year old boy*. And one man was shot in head...

If Israel wanted to fire , they would have fired on legs or hands.. but in many cases they shoot point blank in the forehead.....

*Israel terrorism is not at all justified and you Indians should stop supporting them......*


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## Ahmad

sraja, if i start punching you, you will surely retaliate.

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## Solomon2

EyelessInGaza said:


> Based on the facts that we now have - which could change -in my opinion some people on that ship were out to create trouble...But that is not the issue. In Jallianwallah Bagh in 1919, the crowd was obviously breaking the rules. The end result - hundreds of civilians (*who were breaking the law*)killed, not one British Army soldier dead...When we celebrate the Dandi March and Jallianwallah Bagh as stirring chapters in our Independence struggle, it then is not possible, for me, to defend the Israeli action.


This is one of the most interesting responses I've read yet! Have you considered, then, that Arabs' celebration of the Dandi March and Jallianwallah Bagh is part of the problem?


----------



## Solomon2

Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal?

(Reuters) - Israel has said it will continue a naval blockade of the Gaza Strip despite growing global pressure to lift the siege after a navy raid on a Turkish ferry carrying aid killed nine activists this week.

What is the legality of the blockade and did Israel's intervention breach international law? Below are some questions and answers on the issue:

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?

Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.

CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."

OPPONENTS HAVE CALLED ISRAEL'S RAID "PIRACY." WAS IT?

No, as under international law it was considered a state action.

"Whether what Israel did is right or wrong, it is not an act of piracy. Piracy deals with private conduct particularly with a pecuniary or financial interest," Kraska said.

HAVE THERE BEEN ANY SHIPPING DISRUPTIONS AFTER THE RAID?

None so far but the International Chamber of Shipping (ICS), an association which represents 75 percent of the world's merchant fleet, has expressed "deep concern" over the boarding by Israeli forces, arguing that merchant ships have a right to safe passage and freedom of navigation in international waters.

"These fundamental principles of international law must always be upheld by all of the world's nations," the ICS said.


----------



## Aslan

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...k-journo-talat-hussain-taken-hostage-122.html


Spokesperson's Office expressed its satisfaction with the Turkish newspapers' decision to publish the photos. "This is clear proof of Israel's repeated claims, that the boat was carrying mercenaries, whose sole purpose was to kill the soldiers.

"The images could have been different, had the soldiers chosen to shoot any civilian who approached them. Thanks to their strength and deep understanding of the event, the Navy Commandos managed to distinguish between a peace activist and a terrorist."

IDF troops shown bleeding in Turkish press - Israel News, Ynetnews

The above is what the News paper article had to say!
I think this proves Fisks point well!

*But whoops! At least the Israelis have not demanded ransom. They just want to get journalists to win the propaganda war for them. Scarcely had the week begun when Israel's warrior "commandos" stormed a Turkish boat bringing aid to Gaza and shot nine of the passengers dead. Yet by week's end, the protesters had become "armed peace activists", vicious anti-Semites "professing pacifism, seething with hate, pounding away at another human being with a metal pole". I liked the last bit. The fact that the person being beaten was apparently shooting another human being with a rifle didn't quite get into this weird version of reality.
*

Robert Fisk: The truth behind the Israeli propaganda - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent


----------



## Nononsense

khalidali said:


> Well that goes on to show the hypocrisy of the world that we live in today, that if you have some power you get your voice heard. You dont! then sorry buddy you have the right to be persecuted and killed at will.



Agreed, has always been that way, remember in the times of undivided india, Indian soldires fought the WW2 to save France & Europe from being occupied, when they themselves were ruled by Brits.

Weak nations do not have voice lets agree!! 

I condemn ISREAL here, they are wrong this time. This time their existence is not in question


----------



## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> "These fundamental principles of international law must always be upheld by all of the world's nations," the ICS said.[/SIZE][/FONT]




Really nice of you to enlighten us, now by the above line can you ask your brothers in religion (for whom you are fighting heart and soul to prove their innocence), that they should hold the fundamental principles of international law and free Palestine.


----------



## turkaholic

Sraja, you keep posting this crap, but did the activists actually kill any Israeli soldiers? If the intent was that, there would have been dozens of dead Israeli commandos right now. But quite the contrary, there are 9 activists dead 5 of whom were shot in the head. You must be such a fan of Israeli terrorism.


----------



## sraja

rameez ahmed said:


> t
> But if in *international waters* , any one aboard my ship illegally in the way Israeli did, I will definitely react in some way to save my ship.. Anybody will react in that way so save their property.....



Under the law of a blockade, it is legal to intercept and get on board in a ship which is heading towards blockaded territory even in international waters.

Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal? | Reuters


----------



## Spring Onion

For terrorist allies of Terrorist Israel


LONDON: *Autopsy results on the bodies of nine Turks killed in an Israeli raid on an aid ship to Gaza found they were peppered with bullets and many were shot at close range, British newspaper The Guardian said on Saturday.* 

Citing Yalcin Buyuk, the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice Friday, The Guardian said the men were shot a total of 30 times.



*One 60-year-old man was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, while a US-Turkish citizen was shot five times at close range in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, the paper said.



Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, Buyuk said.*



The Israeli authorities and the activists had conflicting versions of what happened during the deadly pre-dawn raid on the aid ship on Monday.



Israel has said the commandos only opened fire after they came under attack with clubs, knives, guns and other weapons.



Bulent Yildirim, head of the Islamic charity Foundation of Humanitarian Relief, which spearheaded the Gaza aid fleet, said activists used iron bars in self-defence after Israeli soldiers fired indiscriminately when they stormed the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara.


The newspaper also quoted Haluk Ince, chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, as saying that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other body showed multiple wounds.



*He said all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds.*



*Of the other round, Ince said: &#8220;It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms.



It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain.&#8221;*

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## Sino-PakFriendship

USA, Al Qaeda, East Turkistan terrorists, India, Turkey, Israel


All are disgusting!


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## sraja

Ahmad said:


> sraja, if i start punching you, you will surely retaliate.



Only if you started punching me first. But, the video evidence shows, who started punching first.


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## ISRO

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> USA, Al Qaeda, East Turkistan terrorists, India, Turkey, Israel
> 
> 
> All are disgusting!



and china is peace loving


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## Aslan

sraja said:


> Under the law of a blockade, it is legal to intercept and get on board in a ship which is heading towards blockaded territory even in international waters.
> 
> Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal? | Reuters



And what right does the israelies have to block Gaza?

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## Dr.Evil

Jana said:


> Terrorist state of Israel and their supporters :tubdown:
> 
> 
> Israel immediatly took to Youtube for spreading lies



*Yes & Israel has also taken over the Turkish New Paper - Huriyet.*


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## gambit

khalidali said:


> And what right does the israelies have to block Gaza?


Through war.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

ISRO said:


> and china is peace loving



China never supports Kashmir independence, but India supports Tibet independence!

Why China and India cannot be friend?

That's all.


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## Black Stone

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> China never supports Kashmir independence, but India supports Tibet independence!



I thought India already recognizes Tibet as a part of China.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

Black Stone said:


> I thought India already recognizes Tibet as a part of China.



Already or NOT Already is not the problem.

The main point is : Fellow Indian and Western White Netfriends don't like to see Tibet to be integral part of China.


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## Black Stone

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Already or NOT Already is not the problem.
> 
> The main point is : Fellow Indian and Western White Netfriends don't like to see Tibet to be integral part of China.



If they don't like it, why do they recognize Tibet as part of China?.


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## ISRO

Sino-PakFriendship said:


> Already or NOT Already is not the problem.
> 
> The main point is : Fellow Indian and Western White Netfriends don't like to see Tibet to be integral part of China.



well India want healthy relation with China ...but as we all know that China is on the way to become Super Power in the Defence field also .. so we can not sit with closed eyes as both counties already fought ones in past..


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## Aslan

gambit said:


> Through war.



Oh you are back again. great it will be fun to see a bunch of terrorist sympathizers collectively trying to falsify the worlds claims. And to justify the killings of innocent humans. 

Now tell me even in war it says that you are to treat the enemy soldiers fairly, have to take care of their needs. And also to take care of the occupied lands. Now this is what the Geneva convention had to say;

*1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.*


And by the way if you will me trying to justify the actions of the israelies here is what the UN had to say very recently about the whole situation.



SPECIAL FOCUS
May 2010

IMPEDING ASSISTANCE: CHALLENGES TO MEETING THE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS OF PALESTINIANS

This Special Focus draws attention to the range of measures currently impeding the humanitarian communitys ability to provide assistance to vulnerable Palestinians. The delivery of principled humanitarian assistance requires an operating environment that is conducive to the regular and continued deployment of staff and supplies, and managed in accordance with the principles of impartiality, neutrality and independence. In the occupied Palestinian territory, however, the humanitarian community is facing a number of obstacles to the movement of staff and goods and other restrictions impacting day-to-day operations that limit its ability to efficiently and effectively respond to existing needs.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
When the delivery of humanitarian access is restricted, lives are lost and misery prolonged needlessly.1
John Holmes, UN Under Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator

The delivery of principled humanitarian assistance requires an operating environment that is conducive to the regular and continued deployment of staff and supplies, and managed in accordance with the humanitarian principles of impartiality, neutrality and independence. In the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt), however, the humanitarian community is facing a number of obstacles to the movement of staff and goods and other restrictions impacting day-to-day operations that impede the provision of humanitarian aid to vulnerable Palestinians.

The current humanitarian operation in the oPt is one of the largest in the world; at the time of its launching in November 2009, the oPt Consolidated Appeal (CAP) for 2010 ranked fifth out of 12 appeals globally, in terms of requested assistance. Through the oPt CAP, UN agencies and international and national NGOs2 requested over US$ 660 million for 2010. This support is intended to help mitigate the worst impacts of on-going conflict on the most vulnerable Palestinians, who continue to face a human dignity crisis, characterized by the erosion of livelihoods and the continued denial of basic human rights; nearly 40 percent of the Palestinian population is food-insecure and unemployment levels in the West Bank and Gaza Strip remain high.3

The humanitarian operations outlined in the oPts CAP occur within the context of a prolonged Israeli military occupation in which policies to alter the status and character of the territory continue to be pursued contrary to international law. The situation in the Gaza Strip, in particular, presents severe impediments to humanitarian operations. Sweeping import restrictions imposed by Israel since June 2007 have either prevented the implementation of planned humanitarian projects or resulted in significant delays. For example, UNRWA reports that it has had 24 construction and infrastructure projects, totaling some US$ 109 million in donor funds, frozen as a result of the blockade. Among the affected projects are schools, health facilities, housing units, and sewage infrastructure. Additionally, the no contact policy of some donors, prohibiting contact with the Hamas authorities, continues to affect some humanitarian organizations, while Hamass requests for compliance with its administrative procedures from UN agencies and NGOs have intensified. This two-way tension is narrowing the operational independence of some organizations and, at times, restricts on-going humanitarian operations.

In the West Bank, humanitarian organizations face ongoing restrictions on movement and access. Policies include a permit regime required for staff from the West Bank to enter East Jerusalem, and continued access difficulties stemming from the deployment of hundreds of closure obstacles, among others. In particular, agencies mandated with service provision are limited in doing so in Area C, due to the restrictive planning regime applied by Israel and restrictions to obtaining building permits and difficulties accessing certain areas.

The humanitarian communitys primary concern with the measures outlined in this report is that they impede its ability to meet the needs of vulnerable Palestinians whose livelihoods have been reduced or destroyed by years of continued occupation, conflict and the denial of basic human rights.4 More than ever, immediate steps are required to reverse this trend.

A complete lifting of Israels blockade on the Gaza Strip and improved Palestinian access to land and resources in the West Bank and external markets are just a few examples of measures that could significantly improve Palestinian livelihoods through a reduction in unemployment and poverty. Israels modest relaxation in recent months of some import restrictions, which have allowed for the entry to Gaza of a number of much needed, previously-restricted items, including glass, wood, and aluminum, among others, have been welcome improvements.

In addition, all parties to the conflict must abide by their international legal obligations to ensure the smooth passage of humanitarian relief and personnel, and that the humanitarian community is able to carry out its work effectively and efficiently. Additionally, there is a need for donor countries to strongly advocate for an improvement in the humanitarian situation and respect for humanitarian operations in their bilateral relations with the authorities concerned. Another necessary step is that relevant donor countries and affected humanitarian organizations re-evaluate their position vis-à-vis the no contact policy, where humanitarian operations are concerned, as well as related funding restrictions. Finally, the humanitarian community needs financial support for initiatives designed to resolve or overcome access issues and other restrictions on humanitarian operations.

Impeding Assistance: Challenges to Meeting the Humanitarian Needs of Palestinians -- OCHA special focus (27 May 2010)


UNITED NATIONS OFFICE AT GENEVA
REGULAR PRESS BRIEFING BY THE INFORMATION SERVICE
4 June 2010

Situation in Gaza

Christiane Berthiaume of the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) said that the United Nations Children's Fund and its partners were working in extremely difficult conditions to provide help to the approximately 800,000 children in Gaza, which represented more than half of the population living in the Strip. Development gains in Gaza were being reversed due to the blockade.

Together with the UN Secretary-General, UNICEF calls for an immediate lifting of the closure, and full, unimpeded access for humanitarian supplies and personnel, said Ms. Berthiaume.

The current situation was particularly affecting the youngest ones. Children in need of specialized care outside of Gaza had to navigate severe access restrictions and ten had died between 2009 and January 2010 due to delays in accessing critical care.

According to a study by Save the Children, chronic malnutrition in children had doubled from 1.2 per cent in 2006 to 2.4 per cent in 2008, said Ms. Berthiaume. Also, no new schools have been built due to the lack of construction material and the vast majority of schools had to operate in double shift in order to accommodate the sheer number of students.

Students wishing to pursue their studies abroad were regularly barred from leaving Gaza. Learning achievements within Gaza were plummeting, said Ms. Berthiaume. This year, only 46 per cent of fourth graders had passed their mathematics exams and 50 per cent their Arab language exams.

Ms. Berthiaume said that water and wastewater services have been rendered unreliable due to the lack of essential material for repair and maintenance work. Only around 10 per cent of the water in Gazas aquifer was fit for human consumption. Every day between 50 to 80 million of litres of partially untreated sewage were released into the Mediterranean.

Further, there was no specific list of what was allowed to enter Gaza or not. United Nations Children's Fund items have taken prolonged period for clearance into Gaza, including water pumps that had now spent seventeen months in the Ashdod warehouse, said Ms. Berthiaume. Math and science teaching kits had been stuck at customs since January because they contained periscopes and compasses.

Blockade's impact on children in Gaza - UNICEF/UNOG press briefing (Excerpts) (4 June 2010)


Now tell me what right does the israelies have to block Gaza.


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## Solomon2

khalidali said:


> ...they should hold the fundamental principles of international law and free Palestine.


Israel could, probably, re-invade Gaza and remove Hamas from power. But the mind-set that endorses tyranny at the expense of freedom, I don't think Israel can or should do [i.e., work to eliminate] by themselves. Not only would Israel be criticized for it, but even if the Gazans seek to become a peaceful people, it's unlikely that outsiders will accept that - that is, arguably, why Iran-supported Hamas seized all power in Gaza three years ago.

Therefore, trying to use the flotilla incident to bash _Israel_, rather than those who instigated the violence and help keep Gazans in the grip of terror, is counter-productive, both for Arabs and non-Arabs.


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## rameez ahmed

sraja said:


> Under the law of a blockade, it is legal to intercept and get on board in a ship which is heading towards blockaded territory even in international waters.
> 
> Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal? | Reuters



I don't need to answer you in this because you have got your answer in the above previous comments.......


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## Marxist

*****deleted*****


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## Spring Onion

*Flotilla raid footage goes viral as Israel floods YouTube *

JERUSALEM: *Israel may have lost the initial PR battle over its deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship, but it is fighting back with a barrage of video clips in a bid to prove activists initiated the violence.* 

Days after the botched attack which killed nine Turks, the fight over what exactly happened on board the ferry is still raging on YouTube, with both sides posting more and more clips on the video-sharing website to support their case.



It was chaotic footage of Israeli troops storming the Turkish-owned Mavi Marmara which first caught the world's attention.



Streaming Internet video of bloodied passengers and reporters issuing urgent calls for help were transmitted in real time from the deck of the ship.


*
The commandos eventually disconnected the feed but the damage was done, provoking a wave of global outrage which has dealt a harsh blow to Israel's image.*


Israel says its troops were violently attacked as they dropped onto the Mavi Marmara, and only shot back in self-defence. The activists say the commandos started shooting as soon as they arrived, prompting those on board to act in self-defence.


*
Faced with a diplomatic backlash, Israel cranked up its propaganda machine, uploading a slew of video clips to YouTube to support its version of events.



Grainy images of elite commandos taking a beating at the hands of Turkish activists turned out to be one of Israel's most unlikely propaganda successes.



Over 1.6 million people watched that footage. You also saw it used on blogs and in forums, said Lieutenant Aliza Landes, head of the Israeli military's new media desk.


In another clip, taken from the ship's security cameras, activists can be seen preparing for a confrontation.



In that footage you can see them handing out metal batons and putting on masks, and you can see the light of the boat approaching so it's clear that they were preparing for a fight, said Landes.



YouTube is the best tool we have as video gives the most powerful information, said Landes.*


*Israel has, however, come under fire for using pirated footage to defend its botched raid  material confiscated from journalists who were on board the ship.


An interview with a passenger who says he wants to be a martyr is shown in a clip not credited to any media outlet, and only described as footage captured on the Gaza flotilla. The army refused to say whether the footage would be returned.*



Twitter has also been widely used by both sides, with the microblogging site flooded with Tweets as the raid happened, most of them posted by the flotilla organisers commenting on the live Internet feed.


*
But none of the Tweets actually originated from the boat. And Israel has so far only used the service to distribute official information rather than as a breaking news tool.*



Chaim Shacham, director of information at the foreign ministry, says Israel is becoming more aware of the digital media battlefield.



In this case, it was very clear to us that it would be a race for footage, he told AFP, saying that the navy had cameramen in the helicopters and patrol boats.



Getting footage was part of the operational plan, he said.



All the clips put out by Israel have been rigorously edited, have no timestamp and show only scenes which vindicate the Israeli account without explaining what happened before, or after.



Shacham dismisses claims the footage provides a distorted image of events.



The footage from the ship immediately put things into context  it told the story of the soldiers as well as the protesters, clearly showing the soldiers rappelling down and getting beaten, he said.



While some of the footage had not been very convenient for Israel, much of it vindicated the troops' account, said Shacham.



The Arabic and Turkish footage is very revealing: it shows the jihadists on the ship were intending to beat the hell out of the soldiers, he said, pointing to interviews with Bulent Yildirim, head of the Turkish charity IHH.



But analyst Yariv Ben Eliezer believes Israel's online efforts were too little, too late.



*We lost the propaganda war before we even started, said Ben Eliezer, a propaganda management expert at the IDC centre in Herzliya. We are considered by the world to be Goliath and the 'humanitarian' activists are considered to be David, so it's a lose-lose situation. Israel, he says, should have done its homework and exposed activists aboard the ferry as extremists long before they set sail.



It's not effective now because nobody wants to listen.*


DAWN.COM | Sci-Tech | Flotilla raid footage goes viral as Israel floods YouTube


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## Marxist

*****deleted******


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## Aslan

There are alot of other thread where Kashmir, india, China, and Pakistan related comments can be discussed. And this is not one of them!


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## gambit

khalidali said:


> Oh you are back again. great it will be fun to see a bunch of terrorist sympathizers collectively trying to falsify the worlds claims. And to justify the killings of innocent humans.
> 
> Now tell me even in war it says that you are to treat the enemy soldiers fairly, have to take care of their needs.


The operative words here are 'privileged combatants' and related terminologies. In order to earn this 'privileged combatant' status a person must conform to certain conditions outlined in the GCs. Look them up.



khalidali said:


> And also to take care of the occupied lands.


Provided that the occupied territory is not being used as part of any war calculus. You are treading into an area you know nothing about.


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## Sino-PakFriendship

khalidali said:


> There are alot of other thread where Kashmir, india, China, and Pakistan related comments can be discussed. And this is not one of them!



I can only conclude that

One side's freedom fighters = Another side's terrorists


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## Marxist

*IDF troops shown bleeding in Turkish press*

The Turkish Hurriyet daily has published photos of Israeli Commando soldiers being beaten by passengers aboard the Turkish-owned Marmara vessel, which took part in the aid flotilla to Gaza.
In the pictures, taken in the moments before the IDF succeeded in taking control of the ship, the soldiers are shown bleeding and some of them being led by the activists on board.

The widely-circulated paper says the photos were purposefully censored by Israel, and that they had been saved by one of the activists, who salvaged them from a digital memory stick. 

The report, entitled 'Commando tears', says the soldiers who raided the ship attempted to confiscate the activists' digital cameras and memory sticks "in order to leave no trace". It says the photos were originally erased, but later reproduced by advanced Turkish technology. 

"The people of the IHH presented the photos of the soldiers' neutralization, which the Israeli army attempted to contain in order to prevent damage to their image," the Hurriyet wrote.


One of the photos shows a Commando soldier lying on his back on deck, surrounded by six people and attempting to cover his face. Another soldier is shown being led down the stairs, his face bloody. At his side is a cameraman, documenting the incident on video.


Another photo shows a soldier falling down the stairs, a wool cap covering his face. In a different photo, two activists are seen awaiting the arrival of the soldiers, metal rods in their hands.


*Army: Their sole purpose was to kill troops*
It is evident from the pictures that those on board the Marmara succeeded in isolating a number of soldiers and beating them for at least a few minutes before the Israel Defense Forces took control of the vessel.



The soldiers' faces are clearly shown in the photos, whereas the Israeli press blurred them in order to protect the identity of those who took part in the raid.


*Commando tears' - Hurriyet headline (from newspaper) *

IDF troops shown bleeding in Turkish press - Israel News, Ynetnews


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## Aslan

gambit said:


> The operative words here are 'privileged combatants' and related terminologies. In order to earn this 'privileged combatant' status a person must conform to certain conditions outlined in the GCs. Look them up.
> 
> 
> Provided that the occupied territory is not being used as part of any war calculus.




Enlighten me please. There are somethings better left alone, what you know of the Palestinian struggle, and the continuous genocide of not only the people of Palestine but also of the neighboring countries. But according to you and many like you there is always an excuse.

* You are treading into an area you know nothing about.
*

I will be more then happy to, you have avoided answering on many things before, and the involvement of the US in the ME by derailing the gov's is one of the topics that I touched on and you never answered. So I would like to carry on this debate with you, and lets see how far it can go.


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## gambit

khalidali said:


> Enlighten me please.


About what? How does being a 'privileged combatant' has to do with the boarding of a ship and a naval blockade?



khalidali said:


> There are somethings better left alone, what you know of the Palestinian struggle, and the continuous genocide of not only the people of Palestine but also of the neighboring countries. But according to you and many like you there is always an excuse.


Spare me the hyperboles about any 'genocide'. Is Egypt suffering any genocide caused by Israel? Is Syria? Is Jordan?



khalidali said:


> I will be more then happy to, you have avoided answering on many things before, and the involvement of the US in the ME by derailing the gov's is one of the topics that I touched on and you never answered. So I would like to carry on this debate with you, and lets see how far it can go.


I chose to answer questions that I find has any reasonable amount of intelligence in them. Yours are lacking.


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> Israel could, probably, re-invade Gaza and remove Hamas from power. But the mind-set that endorses tyranny at the expense of freedom, I don't think Israel can or should do by themselves. Not only would Israel be criticized for it, but even if the Gazans seek to become a peaceful people, it's unlikely that outsiders will accept that - that is, arguably, why Iran-supported Hamas seized all power in Gaza three years ago.
> 
> Therefore, trying to use the flotilla incident to bash _Israel_, rather than those who instigated the violence and help keep Gazans in the grip of terror, is counter-productive, both for Arabs and non-Arabs.



See how cleverly you connect, Hamas, Iran, Tyranny all in one statement. That is what you call propaganda. The Hamas were elected by the people of Palestine, just because the israelies dont like them, they create this drama to get rid of them. When Hamas clearly have indicated on more then one occasion that they will recognize israel if the israelies went went back to the 67 borders with complete freedom to the Palestinians. And the magic words here are complete freedom. And this is what your brethren dont want. And that is why they are creating this hysteria that you are a customer to. Why dont israel allow complete freedom to Palestinians as of the 67 borders. Why are you still hellbent on annexing more and more of their land. Because this hallucination that you guys created in the name of granting freedom to Gaza was nothing but a hoax. Your troops moved out. But did they have freedom on sea or in the air. No
Did they have control over their borders! hell no.
Did they have any freedom or control over any thing in their foreign policy and what not. And who could go in and out. A big hell no!
And also remember this, you are as much an outsider to this debate as I am. And vise versa.


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## Aslan

gambit said:


> About what? How does being a 'privileged combatant' has to do with the boarding of a ship and a naval blockade?
> 
> 
> Spare me the hyperboles about any 'genocide'. Is Egypt suffering any genocide caused by Israel? Is Syria? Is Jordan?



The Genocide that I talked about, may be you have forgotten the killings of countless number of people in the occupied lands and also in the neighboring countries. 

*I chose to answer questions that I find has any reasonable amount of intelligence in them. Yours are lacking.*


Basically that is your way of telling me that you are going to chicken out of an argument because you some where inside you know that you are defending the wrong end of the turf. Carry on your living your life in hallucination.


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## gambit

khalidali said:


> The Genocide that I talked about, may be you have forgotten the killings of countless number of people in the occupied lands and also in the neighboring countries.


You need to look up the proper definition of 'genocide'. Then provide a source that says Israel is committing a 'genocide' in a neighboring country...say...Egypt for now.



khalidali said:


> Basically that is your way of telling me that you are going to chicken out of an argument because you some where inside you know that you are defending the wrong end of the turf. Carry on your living your life in hallucination.


It mean I will answer any questions you have provided they are devoid of hyperbolic nonsense and are relevant to the subject. So how does being a 'privileged combatant' has any relevance to a naval blockade, its legality and the boarding of a ship intent on entering the blockaded zone?


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## Canaan

Solomon. A couple of flaws in your reply.
You say that Israel's blockade of Gaza is legal. Israel itself uses the San Remo Manual to support its claims. However, what Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade". 
The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms. The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. 

The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.

Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war. That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".

The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse. 

The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 50 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.

Such effects are manifestly excessive in relation to Israel's security objectives and cannot possibly satisfy the conditions of a lawful blockade. Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans.

I don't like your terminology, why do you insinuate that the Gazans are not a peaceful people? They together with the democratic majority of the Palestinians elected Hamas democratically into office under International supervision. And now comes the fun part which you fail to mention. Israel and the West were shocked by this victory and immediately with a green US light, Israel imposed a blockade on the Gaza strip, as to press and punish people to overthrow Hamas. At the same time, Mohammad Dahlan, your favorite puppy, with the help of Israel, the US, Jordan and Egypt, started training and arming a Fatah army in order to overthrow Hamas via a Coup d'&#233;tat. The only thing they missed is that Hamas was a far stronger opponent than anticipated, and within a couple of days all of Fatah forces were humiliatedly kicked out of Gaza, in a coup against the coup by Hamas.
No one will accept a re-occupation of Gaza. 
You have to stop mixing things up and attempt to steer away the focus from Israel's crime, and justify it with other things. So typical.
This is not about Hamas or Iran. This is about Israel pirating a ship in international waters and killing civilians, of whom six were murdered by one criminal zionist soldier, whom Israel and others now celebrate as a hero.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Solomon2

khalidali said:


> See how cleverly you connect, Hamas, Iran, Tyranny all in one statement. That is what you call propaganda. The Hamas were elected by the people of Palestine -



_In Gaza people awake today to a new reality. Last night, my host Isa told me military coups were the sort of thing he heard and read about, he never thought he would experience one. Yesterday Gazans did. Although the final Fatah stronghold was still standing by the evening Hamas fighters were already making the rounds in the streets, three and four jeeps at a time, loaded with armed men wearing all black, their faces covered with masks, holding their guns in the air, a few, rather uncomfortably, waving to the people. On Alaqsa, the only remaining radio station being aired from Gaza belonging to Hamas, these areas are being called &#8220;freed&#8221; from the traitors...Sitting on the street one could hear the news spread, often the same names of people who had been killed or thought to have escaped were mentioned among the people walking by. The coup d'&#233;tat was the only thought on their minds of young and old..._

Until June, 2007, the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza enjoyed self-rule (as envisioned as early as the 1978 Camp David Accords) under a separation-of-powers democracy. As I understand it, Hamas was elected to a majority in parliament because Fatah was corrupt. Fatah, of course, retained executive power. However, Hamas then used their majority, military might, and terror to seize total control of Gaza and eliminate democracy.



> just because the israelies dont like them, they create this drama to get rid of them.


Israel is happy with a knee-capped, de-fanged Hamas; that means only the Gazans are suffering from Hamas, right? (A Hamas re-armed with rocket weapons and concrete command posts, that's another story.) Eliminating a weak Hamas entirely, that's something the Israelis will not do, at least not without a great deal of international support - including support from the Muslim World, I guess.


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## Aslan

gambit said:


> You need to look up the proper definition of 'genocide'. Then provide a source that says Israel is committing a 'genocide' in a neighboring country...say...Egypt for now.
> 
> 
> It mean I will answer any questions you have provided they are devoid of hyperbolic nonsense and are relevant to the subject. So how does being a 'privileged combatant' has any relevance to a naval blockade, its legality and the boarding of a ship intent on entering the blockaded zone?




The definition of Genocide;

*Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]*

It does not mention how many you have to kill to consider it a genocide, now lets look at it from the Palestinian's point of view;

Is israel deliberately and systematically destroying in whole or in part the Palestinians by blocking their rights and freedom? What do you think is the answer to that. 
*
(CPPCG)Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[2] *


How many of the above can be applicable to the israelies actions in the neighboring countries. Almost all of the above. 
*
With the support of the United States, the resolution was placed before the General Assembly for consideration. Defining genocide in 1943, Lemkin wrote:
Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[13]*


Sabra and Shatila massacre in Lebanon, even though it was done by the Lebanese Militia, but who was in charge. The good old sharone. 
The above is just one example, now there are countless examples of israeli raids in neighboring countries where they killed innocent civilians. In Egypt, Jordan, Syria. Then you have the indiscriminate bombings and killings in the Lebanese cities during the war. So is all that justified. And didnt they all belong to one group, ie Arabs. So cant I tag that as a genocide. 
And who decides what is the number of kills before you can term it as a genocide.


And by the way when I talk about the killings in Egypt I was referring to the killings in the past. Its all connected after all.


----------



## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> _In Gaza people awake today to a new reality. Last night, my host Isa told me military coups were the sort of thing he heard and read about, he never thought he would experience one. Yesterday Gazans did. Although the final Fatah stronghold was still standing by the evening Hamas fighters were already making the rounds in the streets, three and four jeeps at a time, loaded with armed men wearing all black, their faces covered with masks, holding their guns in the air, a few, rather uncomfortably, waving to the people. On Alaqsa, the only remaining radio station being aired from Gaza belonging to Hamas, these areas are being called freed from the traitors...Sitting on the street one could hear the news spread, often the same names of people who had been killed or thought to have escaped were mentioned among the people walking by. The coup d'état was the only thought on their minds of young and old..._
> 
> Until June, 2007, the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza enjoyed self-rule (as envisioned as early as the 1978 Camp David Accords) under a separation-of-powers democracy. As I understand it, Hamas was elected to a majority in parliament because Fatah was corrupt. Fatah, of course, retained executive power. However, Hamas then used their majority, military might, and terror to seize total control of Gaza and eliminate democracy.
> 
> Israel is happy with a knee-capped, de-fanged Hamas; that means only the Gazans are suffering from Hamas, right? (A Hamas re-armed with rocket weapons and concrete command posts, that's another story.) Eliminating a weak Hamas entirely, that's something the Israelis will not do, at least not without a great deal of international support - including support from the Muslim World, I guess.




Can you bring something new to the table apart from your same old bs theories repeated time and again by your gov. Come now even the world had started to laugh at them. Tell you what would be better, lets connect them to taliban. Lets give it some twist. Make it interesting. Otherwise its like


----------



## Solomon2

Canaan said:


> There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms.


I do not agree with that statement, and I'm not the only one. Tens of thousands of tons gets trucked through Israel to Gaza every month.

If you read last week's _Economist_ you may suspect that the blockade-running effort is part of a battle between Hamas and the U.N.: the U.N. controls most of the aid, and Hamas has been compelled, bit-by-bit, to come to terms with the U.N., loosening the shackles of terror here and there. Hamas can't stand that.



> The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.


This is a fancy way of saying that Israel shouldn't defend its citizenry if that means human shields may be endangered.


> Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war.


Legal reference, please.



> The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.


Food and medicine Gaza gets plenty of, though maybe not enough lobster, caviar, and wine to suit Hamas leaders. 



> The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 50 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.


Breaking the blockade won't solve problems created by tyranny, will it? 



> I don't like your terminology, why do you insinuate that the Gazans are not a peaceful people?


I think many of them are, but some have other ideas, and compel the weak ones to follow them.



> You have to stop mixing things up and attempt to steer away the focus from Israel's crime -


The point is, THERE IS NO ISRAELI CRIME! - but it is important to you to believe so, isn't it?[/QUOTE]


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## Solomon2

khalidali said:


> Can you bring something new to the table apart from your same old bs theories repeated time and again by your gov. Come now even the world had started to laugh at them. Tell you what would be better, lets connect them to taliban. Lets give it some twist. Make it interesting. Otherwise its like


Is it not the height of moral depravity to endorse those breaking a blockade to supply a party who wishes to kill millions of people in the name of phony humanitarianism? It has made you cynical and cruel, hasn't it? How many of your countrymen are affected the same way? Why doesn't the corruption in Pakistan ever end? Why is today's Germany, which acknowledges the horror of its ancestors, a "normal" country while Pakistan, which never acknowledges any wicked deed, in deep doo-doo? You don't see connections and parallels?


----------



## turkaholic

Dr.Evil said:


> *Yes & Israel has also taken over the Turkish New Paper - Huriyet.*



Israel is good at that stuff. 

Our citizens get killed and on top of that you and other Israeli terrorist sympathizers label them as terrorists. No wonder why people say life is not fair.


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## Ganga

mjnaushad said:


> The thing is not That they retaliate. Attacking in International waters is act of war. Can't you put this in your empty minds. Who gave them the right to attack that ship in the first place.??



It is a blessing in disguise that the entire thing happened in international waters.Had it happened in Israeli waters they would have just machined gunned the activists.


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## gambit

Canaan said:


> Solomon. A couple of flaws in your reply.
> You say that Israel's blockade of Gaza is legal. Israel itself uses the San Remo Manual to support its claims. However, what Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade".
> The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.
> 
> There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms. The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.
> 
> The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.
> 
> Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war. That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".
> 
> The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.
> 
> The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 50 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.
> 
> Such effects are manifestly excessive in relation to Israel's security objectives and cannot possibly satisfy the conditions of a lawful blockade. Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans.


Try to give credit and attribution when they are due...

ABC The Drum Unleashed - Israel's security cannot come at any price


> What Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade".
> 
> The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.
> 
> There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms. The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.
> 
> Such attacks were well documented by the UN's Goldstone Report and are a serious security threat to Israel. Israel has every right to protect its civilians from indiscriminate terrorist attacks by Hamas.
> 
> The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.
> 
> Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war. That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".
> 
> The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.
> 
> The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 45 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.
> 
> Such effects are manifestly excessive in relation to Israel's security objectives and cannot possibly satisfy the conditions of a lawful blockade. Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans.


It is not nice to deceive the readers that way when you lifted others' work practically word for word and try to pass it off as your own.


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## gambit

washingtonpost.com

Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 4, 2010

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers. 

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here. 

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.


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## gambit

Canaan said:


> This is not about Hamas or Iran.


Yes it is.

- Gaza may not be a state but is a territory that has state-like characters.

- Gaza was under Egyptian control but Egypt has long retracted said control. Egypt also maintain a blockade, or highly restricted access, to Gaza from Egyptian soil. If Gaza remained under Egyptian control, the burden of maintaining law and order would fall upon Egypt. Failure to maintain effective control of Gaza would make Egypt a party to an international armed conflict (IAC) against Israel, thereby violating the current peace treaty between the two states. Therefore, the naval blockade of Gaza would be illegal if Gaza was under effective Egyptian control and there is a peace treaty between the two states.

- Hamas and Hezbollah are agents of other states that has not openly declared their formal hostilities to Israel. However, while non-declarations of formal hostilities are usually defaulted to tacit peace treaties, the support for agents who act in the interests of states nullifies any unspoken and unwritten peace treaties, thereby creating an international armed conflict (IAC) with the territory called Gaza part of that IAC. Therefore, the naval blockade of Gaza is legal.

- The naval blockade of Gaza is legal if Gaza is a combative secessionist region that is recognized by other states to be a peer. However, Gaza is not a part of Israel and not an incorporated territory under Israeli control, like how Puerto Rico is to the US. So while this legal argument is inapplicable because Gaza is not a combative secessionist region, the fact that Gaza is under the control of hostile agencies, Hamas and Hezbollah, these agencies then made Gaza part of an IAC, therefore the naval blockade is legal.

- The naval blockade of Gaza is legal if Gaza is a part of a country who is a belligerent party in an IAC. That is not the case here.

- Resolutions 1373 and 1860 called for regional states to cease their weapons support to their agents. Refusal to abide and continuation of weapons support to these agents via sea routes make the blockade legal, in other words, the blockade is the only viable alternative solution to the arms control demand.


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## pak-marine

sraja said:


> Check out the pictures of peace terrorists mob trying to lynch, beating up Israeli soldiers.
> 
> Photos from Turkish magazine Hurriyet
> 
> Ýsrail'in sildiði Fotoðraflar / 1 - Hürriyet



shame on you , its the height of ignorance whats so dificult you cant figure out here there is this one guy with minor injuries and other side 12 dead bodies.

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## GUNNER

SOURCE : AFP

"According to a representative of Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza."


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## gambit

GUNNER said:


> SOURCE : AFP
> 
> "According to a representative of Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza."


Good...Finally the world can have a formal declaration of war by Iran against Israel by running this blockade.


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## Solomon2

pak-marine said:


> shame on you , its the height of ignorance whats so dificult you cant figure out here there is this one guy with minor injuries and other side 12 dead bodies.


So if I'm walking along the street minding my own business, talking to people here and there, and I'm suddenly surrounded by a dozen thugs who want to maim, kill, or capture me, and my only weapon is a gun, it isn't right for me to shoot them in self-defense?

I have read that Muslim boys whose mothers submit to purdah may form gangs on the street, starting at a very early age. I can see that to someone inured to gang culture the idea of the little guy standing up for himself is instinctively offensive. Is this your background, and are these your feelings?


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## FreekiN

*FORMER US MARINE DISARMS ISRAELI COMMANDO*

&#8216;Canl&#253; kalkan&#8217; deh&#254;et anlar&#253;n&#253; anlat&#253;yor - H&#252;rriyet

If you have chrome, it will translate for you.



I BELIEVE THAT MIGHT BE A PHOTO OF HIM.


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## Solomon2

turkaholic said:


> No wonder why people say life is not fair.


I think we need to make our lives more just, but justice is not necessarily fair, perhaps not even when properly balanced by mercy.


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## FreekiN

*FORMER US MARINE DISARMS ISRAELI COMMANDOs*

O'Keefe is a former marine who served in the 1991 Gulf War. He said he renounced his US citizenship in protest over America's "funding of war, death and murder". He has been active in many international human rights campaigns and in 2003 he started Human Shield, the volunteer mission of peace activists who acted as human shields in Iraq.

A dedicated peace activist Ken O'Keefe says on his website: "We have been conditioned to be selfish, ignorant and destructive. But our true nature is quite the opposite. Raised with love, protected from danger, allowed to be free, we are a most magnificent of species. In a sane and natural state we shall exemplify the 'golden rule' and we will have peace."

In a telephone conversation in the last 48 hours O'Keefe told fellow activists: *"I want to discuss my role in defending the ship and disarming two Israeli commandos along with conditions and treatment while in Israeli custody, including two beatings at the hands of Israeli agents."*

This guy is hardcore enough that I'll forgive him for renouncing his citizenship. He's still in the anglosphere, so he can join /new/'s pantheon.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/gaza+activist+aposbeaten+in+is
raeli+jailapos/3669527


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## rameez ahmed

GUNNER said:


> SOURCE : AFP
> 
> "According to a representative of Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza."



That , if true , is a very brave step by Iran.. Israel this time should not get away easily with the terrorism they have done....

I wish that it happens so that Israel may get a lesson that its not only the power in the middle east......


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> Is it not the height of moral depravity to endorse those breaking a blockade to supply a party who wishes to kill millions of people in the name of phony humanitarianism? It has made you cynical and cruel, hasn't it? How many of your countrymen are affected the same way? Why doesn't the corruption in Pakistan ever end? Why is today's Germany, which acknowledges the horror of its ancestors, a "normal" country while Pakistan, which never acknowledges any wicked deed, in deep doo-doo? You don't see connections and parallels?



And this is where your bull Sh!t stars. Have fun deceiving others with your cr@p, while on one hand you endorse the systematic killings of the innocent. And on the other you act like a drama queen at the baning of FB. I am done with a zionist sympathizer who have no respect for a human life.


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## Solomon2

khalidali said:


> It does not mention how many you have to kill to consider it a genocide -
> 
> 
> 
> So pretty much at the start what you are confessing is that this is not a matter of wholesale and deliberate murder, as Nazis did of Europe's Jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is israel deliberately and systematically destroying in whole or in part the Palestinians by blocking their rights and freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Rights" is a term, I have learned, that to some Arabs means, "the right to work to destroy Israel". So the concept of "Palestinian rights" needs to be understood precisely. And no, "freedom" - as in freedom of movement - isn't in the scope of the genocide definition.
> 
> As for freedom from tyranny - that's the reason why Hamas must be opposed, not supported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many of the above can be applicable to the israelies actions in the neighboring countries. Almost all of the above.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None at all. It is the difference between what things _are_ and what they are _called._
Click to expand...


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## FreekiN

The boats were shot at BEFORE the Israeli's came in.

A US Marine disarmed two of the Israeli Commando's himself.


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## turkaholic

Solomon2 said:


> *So if I'm walking along the street minding my own business, talking to people here and there, and I'm suddenly surrounded by a dozen thugs who want to maim, kill, or capture me, and my only weapon is a gun, it isn't right for me to shoot them in self-defense?*
> 
> I have read that Muslim boys whose mothers submit to purdah may form gangs on the street, starting at a very early age. I can see that to someone inured to gang culture the idea of the little guy standing up for himself is instinctively offensive. Is this your background, and are these your feelings?



Wow! Do you really REALLY think that the bolded part is in anyway related to what happened on the boat?

How about the following? 

You are on your way to help out the people in need who are restricted to a small piece of land with not enough resources like food, water, wheelchairs, hospitals, medicine etc... While you are on the ship in the international waters, hundreds of commandos invade your ship. What would you do? I guess Americans would just sit and watch if Iranians did the same to you. 

It is hilarious sometimes how funny you guys are.

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## Solomon2

khalidali said:


> And this is where your bull Sh!t stars. Have fun deceiving others with your cr@p, while on one hand you endorse the systematic killings of the innocent. And on the other you act like a drama queen at the baning of FB. I am done with a zionist sympathizer who have no respect for a human life.


If Zionists didn't have great respect for the lives of themselves and others, than why are there any Palestinian refugees at all? Why didn't Israel just massacre them yesterday or today? Why is Israel 20% Arab? And if you can't detail your accusation that I am "deceiving others" than why shouldn't all readers, Pakistani and non-Pakistani, Muslim and non-Muslim, conclude that you're really trying to cover up the truth with false accusations?


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> So pretty much at the start what you are confessing is that this is not a matter of wholesale and deliberate murder, as Nazis did of Europe's Jews.
> 
> "Rights" is a term, I have learned, that to some Arabs means, "the right to work to destroy Israel". So the concept of "Palestinian rights" needs to be understood precisely. And no, "freedom" - as in freedom of movement - isn't in the scope of the genocide definition.
> 
> As for freedom from tyranny - that's the reason why Hamas must be opposed, not supported.
> 
> None at all. It is the difference between what things _are_ and what they are _called._



Well I have already said that I wont cater to a sorry figure for a human being that you are. But just to answer that allegation that you are leveling against me. I am not suggesting any thing I have quoted every thing with my statement. But you are too slow to read and react to it. And the rest of it just goes on to show what you are.


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## Aslan

@ Solomon

And no, "freedom" - as in freedom of movement - isn't in the scope of the genocide definition. 

Read Again if it sits in:

*(CPPCG)Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent* to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; *deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; *imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[2] 


But I guess for you the freedom of movement dont fall under the conditions of life. It ok to be a terrorist sympathizer, but reading and understanding rather then shooting it from the @$$ works better.


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## TaimiKhan

Solomon2 said:


> If Zionists didn't have great respect for the lives of themselves and others, than why are there any Palestinian refugees at all? Why didn't Israel just massacre them yesterday or today? Why is Israel 20% Arab? And if you can't detail your accusation that I am "deceiving others" than why shouldn't all readers, Pakistani and non-Pakistani, Muslim and non-Muslim, conclude that you're really trying to cover up the truth with false accusations?



Don't worry buddy, whatever are left of them, they will be thrown out too or will be subjected under Zionist rules and regulations as usual and with passage of time finished.

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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> If Zionists didn't have great respect for the lives of themselves and others, than why are there any Palestinian refugees at all? Why didn't Israel just massacre them yesterday or today? Why is Israel 20% Arab? And if you can't detail your accusation that I am "deceiving others" than why shouldn't all readers, Pakistani and non-Pakistani, Muslim and non-Muslim, conclude that you're really trying to cover up the truth with false accusations?



The Palestinian refugees who are not allowed to return to their houses. The 20 % Arabs who are suppressed to the max. How many times have they tried. But you are so naive to think that if they had wanted to they will just do it and be done with it. Now on your statement, why dont you ask the mods to make a poll to see if people will agree to your


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Were the activists and aid workers delivering or carrying weapons to Gaza? No.

Were the activists and aid workers planning to assault IDF ships or soldiers once they landed in Gaza? No.

Were the activists and aid workers in any way planning to support attacks on non-combatants? No.

Were the activists and aid workers planning to breach an illegal blockade of millions of residents of Gaza, a blockade that is causing immense human suffering according to the UN and various other international organizations? Yes.

To paraphrase my comments on another thread, I wasn't aware that people opposing Israeli policies of occupying millions of people and keeping them imprisoned in ghettos (increasingly smaller in size as Israel takes more and more of their productive land to build settlements for Israelis), starving them through a blockade and periodically launching military raids into those contained and blockaded ghettos, could be categorized as 'terrorists'. The Israelis however, doing all of the above, are just that.

Sounds like 'District 9' (the movie), except the people in the camps are ordinary humans, not aliens. Closer to reality, sounds like the restricted living spaces set up for Black South Africans by the minority Whites under apartheid.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

A map pf the Bantustans set up by the aprtheid regime in South Africa - under which the majority blacks were restricted to largely unproductive ghettos, with all kinds of restrictions - from wiki:




_Apartheid (Afrikaans pronunciation: [&#592;&#712;p&#592;rt&#614;&#601;it], separateness) was a system of legal racial segregation enforced by the National Party government in South Africa between 1948 and 1994, under which the rights of the majority non-white inhabitants of South Africa were curtailed and minority rule by white people was maintained.

Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times, but apartheid as an official policy was introduced following the general election of 1948. New legislation classified inhabitants into racial groups ("black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian"),[1] and residential areas were segregated, sometimes by means of forced removals. From 1958, black people were deprived of their citizenship, legally becoming citizens of one of ten tribally based self-governing homelands called bantustans, four of which became nominally independent states. The government segregated education, medical care, and other public services, and provided black people with services inferior to those of white people.[2]_

======================

The similarities to what Israel is doing against the Palestinians is clear.

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## Al-zakir

Solomon2 said:


> Why is today's Germany, which acknowledges the horror of its ancestors, a "normal" country while Pakistan, which never acknowledges any wicked deed, in deep doo-doo? You don't see connections and parallels?



Didn't you quite this forum couple week ago. 


German's can bow, bend or what ever in their wish list for deed of Hitler. Why Pakistan or any Islamic country should recognize the wrong deed of Hitler when Jews are doing same thing to Muslim of Pelistin. 

Jews were given shelter by then Pelistini to save them from the wrath of Romans and eastern European yet Jews done the unthinkable to people who has given them a place to live. Back stabbing at it best. Traitors at bibliographic proportion. 

Jews cry over Holocaust that took century ago yet same Jews commuting mini version of same holocaust on innocent people of today's Pelistin. Jews should not cry if a Pelistini cut their neck when ever possible because Pelistini has absolute right to take revenge on aggressive force.

Look at the map bellow and shut up.

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## Spring Onion

*Mad Dog Diplomacy*

A cornered Israel is baring its teeth 

By Jonathan Cook in Nazareth, June 04, 2010
*

Moshe Dayan, Israels most celebrated general, famously outlined the strategy he believed would keep Israels enemies at bay: Israel must be a like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.

Until now, most observers had assumed Dayan was referring to Israeli military or possibly nuclear strategy, an expression in his typically blunt fashion of the countrys familiar doctrine of deterrence. 

But the Israeli commando attack on Monday on the Gaza-bound flotilla, in which nine activists have so far been confirmed killed and dozens were wounded as they tried to break Israels blockade of the enclave, proves beyond doubt that this is now a diplomatic strategy too. Israel is feeling cornered on every front it considers important  and like Dayans mad dog, it is likely to strike out in unpredictable ways.*

*Domestically, Israeli human rights activists have regrouped after the Zionist lefts dissolution in the wake of the outbreak of the second intfada. Now they are presenting clear-eyed  and extremely ugly  assessments of the occupation that are grabbing headlines around the world.*

That move has been supported by the leadership of Israels large Palestinian minority, which has additionally started questioning the legitimacy of a Jewish state in ways that would have been unthinkable only a few years ago.

*Regionally, Hizbullah has progressively eroded Israels deterrence doctrine. It forced the Israeli army to exit south Lebanon in 2000 after a two-decade occupation; it stood firm in the face of both aerial bombardment and a ground invasion during the 2006 war; and now it is reported to have accumulated an even larger arsenal of rockets than it had four years ago. *

Iran, too, has refused to be intimidated and is leaving Israel with an uncomfortable choice between conceding to Tehran the room to develop a nuclear bomb, thereby ending Israels regional nuclear monopoly, and launching an attack that could unleash a global conflagration. 

And internationally, nearly 18 months on from its attack on Gaza, Israels standing is at an all-time low. Boycott campaigns are gaining traction, reluctant support for Israel from European governments has set them in opposition to home-grown sentiment, and even traditional allies such as Turkey cannot hide their anger.

*In the US, Israels most resolute ally, young American Jews are starting to question their unthinking loyalty to the Jewish state. Blogs and new kinds of Jewish groups are bypassing their elders and the American media to widen the scope of debate about Israel.

Israel has responded by characterising these threats all as falling within its ever-expanding definition of support for terrorism. 
*
It was therefore hardly suprising that the first reaction from the Israeli government to the fact that its commandoes had opened fire on civilians in the flotilla of aid ships was to accuse the solidarity activists of being armed. 
*
Similarly, Danny Ayalon, the deputy foreign minister, accused the organisers of having connections to international terrorism, including al-Qaeda. Turkey, which assisted the flotilla, is widely being accused in Israel of supporting Hamas and trying to topple Benjamin Netanyahus government.

Palestinians are familiar with such tactics. Gazas entire population of 1.5 million is now regularly presented in the Israeli media in collective terms, as supporters of terror  for having voted in Hamas  and therefore legitimate targets for Israeli retaliation. Even the largely docile Palestinian Authority in the West Bank has rapidly been tarred with the same brush for its belated campaign to boycott the settlements and their products.*

The leaders of Israels Palestinian citizens too are being cast in the role of abettors of terror. The minority is still reeling from the latest assault: the arrest and torture of two community leaders charged with spying for Hizbullah. In its wake, new laws are being drafted to require that Palestinian citizens prove their loyalty or have their citizenship revoked.

*When false rumours briefly circulated on Monday that Sheikh Raed Salah, a leader of Israels Islamic Movement who was in the flotilla, had been gravely wounded, Israeli officials offered a depressingly predictable, and unfounded, response: commandoes had shot him after they came under fire from his cabin.*

*Israels Jewish human rights community is also under attack to a degree never before seen. Their leaders are now presented as traitors, and new legislation is designed to make their work much harder. 

The few brave souls in the Israeli media who try to hold the system to account have been given a warning shot with the exile of Haaretzs investigative journalist Uri Blau, who is threatened with trial on spying charges if he returns. 
*

*Finally, Israels treatment of those onboard the flotilla has demonstrated that the net against human rights activism is being cast much wider, to encompass the international community. *

Foreigners, even high-profile figures such as Noam Chomsky, are now routinely refused entry to Israel and the occupied territories. Many foreign human rights workers face severe restrictions on their movement and efforts to deport them or ban their organisations. The Israeli government is agreed that Europe should be banned from interfering in the region by supporting local human rights organisations.

The epitome of this process was Israels reception of the UN report last year into the attack on Gaza by Richard Goldstone, a respected judge and international law expert who suggested Israel had committed many war crimes during its three-week operation. Goldstone has faced savage personal attacks ever since. 

But more significantly, Israels supporters have characterised the Goldstone report and the related legal campaigns against Israel as examples of lawfare, implying that those who uphold international law are waging a new kind of war of attrition on behalf of terror groups like Hamas and Hizbullah. 

These trends are likely only to deepen in the coming months and years, making Israel an ever greater paraiah in the eyes of much of the world. The mad dog is baring his teeth, and it is high time the international community decided how to deal with him.

*Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His latest books are Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East (Pluto Press) and Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair (Zed Books). *His website is Jonathan Cook's News Archive - Israel Palestine.


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## Jade

A wrong is a wrong. Israel has no business attacking an aid ship that too in International waters. If Israel is so honest in its claims why is so it is refusing a international panel to investigate its commando raid? 

Israel rejects international panel to study raid: envoy | Reuters

*Israel rejects international panel to study raid: envoy*

(Reuters) - Israel does not want an international panel to investigate its commando raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship but is talking with Washington about how an inquiry of the incident should proceed, Israel's U.S. ambassador said Sunday.

"We are rejecting an international commission," Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to the United States, said on "Fox News Sunday."
"We are discussing with the Obama administration a way in which our inquiry will take place."

Nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed last week when Israeli troops boarded the ship carrying aid to Gaza. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon had discussed his proposal for multinational investigation of the raid Saturday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Ban had suggested establishing a panel that would be headed by former New Zealand prime minister Geoffrey Palmer and include representatives from Israel, the United States and Turkey, under whose flag the ship sailed, an official from Netanyahu's office said earlier Sunday.

Netanyahu planned to convene senior Cabinet ministers on Sunday to decide whether Israel would take part, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

But Oren told Fox: "Israel is a democratic nation. Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board."

Israeli leaders have spoken publicly about having foreign observers for an Israeli investigation into Monday's interception of the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara, which was part of a six-vessel fleet.

Asked if an Israeli investigation would include foreign participation, Oren said, "This is an ongoing discussion in the Israeli government. But at the end of the day, Israel has the right, the duty, as a democracy to investigate any military activity."

Ban also discussed with Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erodogan "options for moving forward with the investigation called for by the Security Council," the United Nations said on its website, referring to the council's call for an impartial inquiry.

Israel's navy boarded another ship carrying aid to Gaza on Saturday. Its interception of the MV Rachel Corrie ended without violence following diplomatic efforts to avoid bloodshed.

U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman John Kerry said on ABC's "This Week" it was in Israel's "security and national defense interest to deal more effectively with the Gaza situation."
Israel has every right to ensure weapons are not being smuggled into Gaza but there is still too much confusion about what goods humanitarian groups are allowed to bring in, he said.

"I think that what we need to do in the days ahead is put out a list of the things that cannot go in," Kerry said.
Republican Senator John Cornyn accused the pro-Palestinian activists of "a premeditation provocation" that resulted in Israeli troops having to defend themselves.

"If the people organizing this flotilla had been committed to a peaceful activity as opposed to provocation, this would not have occurred and Israel would have been able to examine the contents of the flotilla and they would have been delivered to the people in Gaza who needed help," Cornyn said on "This Week."

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## Shattered

ummm i got a question for pak and chinese member.

Do you guys hate the whole of the israeal , there goverment or the jews ? 0_0.

Realy i don't know ._..


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## M8R

Shattered said:


> ummm i got a question for pak and chinese member.
> 
> Do you guys hate the whole of the israeal , there goverment or the jews ? 0_0.
> 
> Realy i don't know ._..


Let me guess you're gonna act like a retard and use anti Semite card again?According to Israel if you're not Jewish and you criticize Israel then you're anti Semitic. This attitude that some people have- where either you are for Israel or you are an anti-Semite is *****.Human rights groups and activists, journalists and generally nice sane people Like N Chomsky throughout the world have been labeled as anti-Semitic for having the audacity to disagree with israel. ***** Israel, I'm tired of their *****.Israel has become the thing they hated 60 years ago.I find Israeli Government and Talibans to be cousins.Both are ultra-right wing and use/abuse their respective religion.


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## GUNNER

Shattered said:


> ummm i got a question for pak and chinese member.
> 
> Do you guys hate the whole of the israeal , there goverment or the jews ? 0_0.
> 
> Realy i don't know ._..



I guess for most part it's the policies of the Israeli government. I guess if Israel hadn't had the post-independence history that it has, none would have had any problem. If Europens had given the Jews a place to live in peacefully, there wouldn't have been any problem.


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## Ahmad

sraja said:


> Only if you started punching me first. But, the video evidence shows, who started punching first.
> 
> YouTube - Israeli commandos 'attacked on aid ship'



lets go back and see who is stealing whose land and who is suppressing who.


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## vishalgutsy

im a little confused about the comments made at the end of this video.
could someone enlighten me..???


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## vishalgutsy

Sura 10:93-94

&#8220;We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place...If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee"

---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 AM ----------

Sura 17:4
"And We [Allah] gave (clear) warning to the children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!"

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

Sura 17:7

The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and even prophet Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem.

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## vishalgutsy

Sura 17:104
The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that 'And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."'

---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------

all those who say israel has captured palestinian land , please refute these verces.


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## Materialistic

> all those who say israel has captured palestinian land , please refute these verces.




*Would you show same care if Quran had said that US/ India is a land promised to Muslims, Go conquer it!!!*

Just Curious to know!!




> The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and even prophet Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem.



Why would he do so, before reading these references you must understand that the Muslim belief is that Our Prophet (P.B.U.H) was sent from the same God (to Complete Allah's religion) who send all the Prophets from Adam to Mohammad (P.B.U.H), including Jesus, Moses and many others..

So why would our Prophet (P.B.U.H) would deny claims of Bible!!




> Sura 17:104
> The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that 'And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."'
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------
> 
> all those who say israel has captured palestinian land , please refute these verces.



if you read it carefully then there is a huge difference, the Islamic prophecy says that Jews will return to this land but it doesn't mention anywhere that they have to return to claim ownership of the land or to overthrow those who already live their but for all the Muslims, Christians & Jews to unite before the Day of Judgement.

Also it mentioned that they(Jews) will be cruel and carry out all their evil deeds, and it also says that Jews & Christians would do everything possible thing in the later ages to suppress and harm Islam. And that is the reason for hatred in among Muslims specially for Jews and other western nations, because we can see this all happening that was written 1400 yrs back.

*So, it also justifies the need for reaction to jewish barbarism in Palestine.*

*Also, it provides an account for all the current Zionist acts of Jews worldwide which most of our Indian members refuse when its not favorable in discussions.

So, plz don't twist the meanings of verses and prophecies of the book which you don't believe in, to back your claims and support for an allied nation. *

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## Materialistic

> all those who say israel has captured palestinian land , please refute these verces.



Following that it becomes justified that Greece can claim all the lands that Alexander conquered(Egypt, Iraq, Iran & some parts of Pakistan, Turks can Invade India again, India can claim Pakistan, Pakistan can claim BD.


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## iron_man

^^^^^^^^Matarialistic

I thought Quran teaches love and peace. No wonder thats reason for so many jihadists.


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## Materialistic

> I thought Quran teaches love and peace. No wonder thats reason for so many jihadists.



Ofcourse Quran teaches & promotes love and peace but also it asks to defend yourself.

I understood one thing now, why God gave humans two eyes, to see both the sides of a coin and I hope that you try to use both of them. And im sure you won't be unaware of killings of Palestine. 

If Palastines try to defend themselves then is it terrorism !! Jihadies manipulate these verses for their own interests and they donot follow them in their pure essence resulting in a bad image of our religion. 

Quran gives all the rules and regulations for all the matters of daily life to running a country and in Jihad as well there are hard & strict rules to avoid any injustice to innocent.


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## vishalgutsy

Materialistic said:


> *Would you show same care if Quran had said that US/ India is a land promised to Muslims, Go conquer it!!!*
> 
> Just Curious to know!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would he do so, before reading these references you must understand that the Muslim belief is that Our Prophet (P.B.U.H) was sent from the same God (to Complete Allah's religion) who send all the Prophets from Adam to Mohammad (P.B.U.H), including Jesus, Moses and many others..
> 
> So why would our Prophet (P.B.U.H) would deny claims of Bible!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you read it carefully then there is a huge difference, the Islamic prophecy says that Jews will return to this land but it doesn't mention anywhere that they have to return to claim ownership of the land or to overthrow those who already live their but for all the Muslims, Christians & Jews to unite before the Day of Judgement.
> 
> Also it mentioned that they(Jews) will be cruel and carry out all their evil deeds, and it also says that Jews & Christians would do everything possible thing in the later ages to suppress and harm Islam. And that is the reason for hatred in among Muslims specially for Jews and other western nations, because we can see this all happening that was written 1400 yrs back.
> 
> *So, it also justifies the need for reaction to jewish barbarism in Palestine.*
> 
> *Also, it provides an account for all the current Zionist acts of Jews worldwide which most of our Indian members refuse when its not favorable in discussions.
> 
> So, plz don't twist the meanings of verses and prophecies of the book which you don't believe in, to back your claims and support for an allied nation. *





cut the crap , and come to the point.

do u agree that the country isreal always existed in middle east as the quranic and biblical verces say , and therefore they have not stolen anyone else's land , and just got back their own land that was always theirs. 
or
u think these quranic verces are wrong and there was no such nation called israel historically n jews have no right over the land of israel.

vats ure stand..???

its not only for u , its for all muslims who accept quran as god's word.


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## SOCOM

iron_man said:


> ^^^^^^^^Matarialistic
> 
> I thought Quran teaches love and peace. No wonder thats reason for so many jihadists.



why haven't the mods banned this trolling idiot?


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## SOCOM

anyways why are all the hindus pro-israel? dravidians are not white..

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## vishalgutsy

SOCOM said:


> anyways why are all the hindus pro-israel? dravidians are not white..



does this thread even mention about hindus or dravidians anywhere..???
then quit derailing and give some arguement within the context if u can.


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## Rocketsingh

SOCOM said:


> anyways why are all the hindus pro-israel? dravidians are not white..



y r u dragging indians with ur hate to israelis?if u want to condemn ,u can do...


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## Gene

SOCOM said:


> why haven't the mods banned this trolling idiot?





SOCOM said:


> anyways why are all the hindus pro-israel? dravidians are not white..



Before saying someone idiot troller, better have a look on yourself !!


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## Materialistic

> cut the crap , and come to the point.
> 
> do u agree that the country isreal always existed in middle east as the quranic and biblical verces say , and therefore they have not stolen anyone else's land , and just got back their own land that was always theirs.
> or
> u think these quranic verces are wrong and there was no such nation called israel historically n jews have no right over the land of israel.
> 
> vats ure stand..???
> 
> its not only for u , its for all muslims who accept quran as god's word.



Well, my stand is all clear,but cudn't understand this idiotic concept that you are trying to extract out of it. 

Quran tells about them coming back to those lands, but where does the ownership comes in ?? its quite funny that u r trying to legalize their ownership over the lands following a verse of a book u don't follow and when world that u follow never offers any recognition of religion to legal issues. 

It doesn't provide jews any legal ownership, what it means is that they can come back and live their and nowhere it mentions of them forming a government or grabing the land. Its more like them coming as immigrants than political or military takeover. To live somewhere never means or forming a state by force after over throwing the actual owners.

*What if Quran had mentioned India instead of Palestine so would you say that jews can come and take over India ?? Capture it, kill innocent people and form their own state replacing the orignal one ???

Its you who has to clear his stance.*

*Anyway, no more comments from me on a thread made exclusively for trolling.*

*Spain and India were once under Muslim rule and remained under Muslim rule for centuries, do you u mean to say Muslims should Invade and takeover India and Spain again !!!! Because Muslims ruled them centuries back and they still have ownership !! 

No, but of course they can migrate and live like other nationals recognizing the state and its government (just as the case mentioned above).*


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## nadirkahn

iron_man said:


> ^^^^^^^^Matarialistic
> 
> I thought Quran teaches love and peace. No wonder thats reason for so many jihadists.



Rss, Shiv Sena, BJp learns and follows Gita????
Hitler did Follow bible????
Zionists did follow Gospel???
WW1 and WW2 countries did follow their faith???
If some criminals not follow Quran that doesn't means that they are Islamic,,,,They are Kafirs.....
Jihad can only be allowed by the state,,, You can read Quran for that sentences...
Individual Jihad is illegal....
So it was, is, will not Jihad...
dont call them Jihadis again if you dont know about Islam otherwise.....


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## mr42O

Expressing his concern over the treatment of Palestinians, musician Elvis Costello has canceled shows scheduled in Tel Aviv, Israel, on June 30 and July 1.

In a message posted on his website, Costello apologizes for the move, but notes that "there are occasions when merely having your name added to a concert schedule may be interpreted as a political act that resonates more than anything that might be sung and it may be assumed that one has no mind for the suffering of the innocent." He adds, it is "quite impossible to simply look the other way


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## mr42O

CHOR KI DARRI MHE TINKA 

Guess why they reject ? What are they trying to hide ?

Israel rejects international probe of flotilla raid - USATODAY.com

JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel rejects the idea of a having an international commission look into the country's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, Israel's ambassador to the U.S. said Sunday.
Michael Oren said Israel has the ability and the right to investigate its own military. And he said Israel will not apologize for the incident, but is talking with the Obama administration about ways to deal with it.

"We are open to any ideas on how to somehow deal with the Gaza situation," Oren said on Fox News Sunday, He added, however, that "there is no simple idea."


SATURDAY: Israel remains defiant, seizes Gaza-bound aid ship

Israel's prime minister is claiming that the Turkish activists who battled Israeli commandos last week had prepared for the fight ahead of time.

An Israeli official said Sunday that United Nations chief Ban Ki Moon is moving ahead with plans for an international commission to investigate Israel's deadly raid, which came as it was trying to stop the Turkish ship from breaching a blockade of Hamas-ruled Gaza. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because Ban has not announced details of his proposal.

Eight Turks and a Turkish American were killed in the May 31 raid, and a preliminary autopsy report released by Turkey on Saturday said they were shot a total of 30 times. Israel said its forces acted in self-defense against people it described as Islamic extremists.

Oren said Sunday that Israel regrets the casualties.

The Turkish ship, which was part of a six-vessel international aid flotilla, was breaching an Israeli blockade of Gaza. Israel argues that a blockade is necessary to keep weapons and other military components out of the hands of Gaza militants who have attacked Israel with bombs, rockets and mortars for years.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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## vishalgutsy

Materialistic said:


> Well, my stand is all clear,but cudn't understand this idiotic concept that you are trying to extract out of it.
> 
> Quran tells about them coming back to those lands, but where does the ownership comes in ?? its quite funny that u r trying to legalize their ownership over the lands following a verse of a book u don't follow and when world that u follow never offers any recognition of religion to legal issues.
> 
> It doesn't provide jews any legal ownership, what it means is that they can come back and live their and nowhere it mentions of them forming a government or grabing the land. Its more like them coming as immigrants than political or military takeover. To live somewhere never means or forming a state by force after over throwing the actual owners.
> 
> *What if Quran had mentioned India instead of Palestine so would you say that jews can come and take over India ?? Capture it, kill innocent people and form their own state replacing the orignal one ???
> 
> Its you who has to clear his stance.*
> 
> *Anyway, no more comments from me on a thread made exclusively for trolling.*
> 
> *Spain and India were once under Muslim rule and remained under Muslim rule for centuries, do you u mean to say Muslims should Invade and takeover India and Spain again !!!! Because Muslims ruled them centuries back and they still have ownership !!
> 
> No, but of course they can migrate and live like other nationals recognizing the state and its government (just as the case mentioned above).*





are u sure u didnt understand my question..???
or ure intentionally avioding it..???

my question i simple.
why do muslims claim that israel has stolen palestinian land , when in thier own quran its written that israel is land of jews.


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## mikkix

vishalgutsy said:


> cut the crap , and come to the point.
> 
> do u agree that the country isreal always existed in middle east as the quranic and biblical verces say , and therefore they have not stolen anyone else's land , and just got back their own land that was always theirs.
> or
> u think these quranic verces are wrong and there was no such nation called israel historically n jews have no right over the land of israel.
> 
> vats ure stand..???
> 
> its not only for u , its for all muslims who accept quran as god's word.



You ......... ,,,,,, Muslim should attacked Spain,,,,,Russia should attacked Central asia,,,,British and Muslims should attack India,,,,
Roman should attack all europe,,,,,
Turkey should attack all for retaining of ottoman empire...
Australian should be wiped off because this is a land red indians..
Americans should migrate anywhere cause this land is not for them..
.......................................................................


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## vishalgutsy

Materialistic said:


> Well, my stand is all clear,but cudn't understand this idiotic concept that you are trying to extract out of it.
> 
> Quran tells about them coming back to those lands, but where does the ownership comes in ?? its quite funny that u r trying to legalize their ownership over the lands following a verse of a book u don't follow and when world that u follow never offers any recognition of religion to legal issues.
> 
> It doesn't provide jews any legal ownership, what it means is that they can come back and live their and nowhere it mentions of them forming a government or grabing the land. Its more like them coming as immigrants than political or military takeover. To live somewhere never means or forming a state by force after over throwing the actual owners.
> 
> *What if Quran had mentioned India instead of Palestine so would you say that jews can come and take over India ?? Capture it, kill innocent people and form their own state replacing the orignal one ???
> 
> Its you who has to clear his stance.*
> 
> *Anyway, no more comments from me on a thread made exclusively for trolling.*
> 
> *Spain and India were once under Muslim rule and remained under Muslim rule for centuries, do you u mean to say Muslims should Invade and takeover India and Spain again !!!! Because Muslims ruled them centuries back and they still have ownership !!
> 
> No, but of course they can migrate and live like other nationals recognizing the state and its government (just as the case mentioned above).*




as for india and spain , these lands were never muslim lands , they always belonged to hindus and christians , so there is no point that muslims can call these lands theirs.(even during islamic period whole of india was never ruled by muslims , expect few northern states were)

but isreal's case is different.
israel was always a jew's land , unless u refuse quranic verces , its proven that the land of israel actually belongs to jews.
The Jews have historic right over Israel. There is a detailed history about them, and not just their own that traces them to that land for almost $3,500 years. Many ancient towns in Israel, like Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc, still have Hebrew names. In fact the Quranic stories narrated by Muhammad about Moses and the Israelites, confirm that the Jews called that part of land home at least 2000 years before Islam was invented. 

The truth is that the Jews never deserted Israel completely. Many of them have been living there forever. But their land was under the domination of other powers, such as the Romans, the Caliphs of Islam and the Ottoman Empire.

(( dont bring india and spain into ure arguement , these lands were never muslim lands n will never be ))

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## vishalgutsy

moreover , nobody is asking muslims to leave india and spain today , muslims are still present in good numbers in these countries,and living peacefully.

*but its muslims who have been crying over a tiny piece of land israel , which was never theirs.*

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## mikkix

vishalgutsy said:


> are u sure u didnt understand my question..???
> or ure intentionally avioding it..???
> 
> my question i simple.
> why do muslims claim that israel has stolen palestinian land , when in thier own quran its written that israel is land of jews.



Yes Quran says that,,,and the prophecy is already here,,,,Israel got the land...
let me tell something more to you read whole Quran.....
There is a prophecy too when israel reclaim that piece of land then after some years ( 60, 70, 100, or e.t.c.)
The muslim will got this land forever and then there will be no jews in that land cause WHOLE the world accepts ISLAM as a religion*(DEEN)...*
This will only happen when Imam Al Mahdi arrives...
I believed that you will also read that too...
Hope you will believed in that too for your faith is concerned...


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## vishalgutsy

mikkix said:


> Yes Quran says that,,,and the prophecy is already here,,,,Israel got the land...
> let me tell something more to you read whole Quran.....
> There is a prophecy too when israel reclaim that piece of land then after some years ( 60, 70, 100, or e.t.c.)
> The muslim will got this land forever and then there will be no jews in that land cause WHOLE the world accepts ISLAM as a religion*(DEEN)...*
> This will only happen when Imam Al Mahdi arrives...
> I believed that you will also read that too...
> Hope you will believed in that too for your faith is concerned...




dont dream that far son.
u can get such al mehdi hobblywobbly stories in every religion n cult.
muslims are not god's(real god,not allah) favourite , and u dont need much intelligence to see that.


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## vishalgutsy

vishalgutsy said:


> moreover , nobody is asking muslims to leave india and spain today , muslims are still present in good numbers in these countries,and living peacefully.
> 
> *but its muslims who have been crying over a tiny piece of land israel , which was never theirs.*



There will be peace in Palestine the day Palestinians put down their arms and start negotiating on equal terms. 

This is not happening because Muslims hate the Jews gutturally.
Palestinians are not homeless. After sixty years they are not refugees. Israelis built thier country from scratch during these years, Palestinians could have done the same. But their leaders got the money from USA, filled their bank accounts and financed war with Israel instead. 
Now the question is, if not in their ancestral land, where the Israelis should build their country. Where do you think they should go? Would Antarctica satisfy you or rather youd prefer they are sent to Mars?

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## vishalgutsy

For Israelis it is a matter of survival. They have nowhere to go. Palestinians have enough land to build their country and live happily. But that is not what they want. They want revenge and are readly to kill themselves for that. Most Palestinians prefer being killed in a nuclear bomb if the Jews are also going to be killed than leave side by side with the Jews and share the land with them.


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## nadirkahn

vishalgutsy said:


> dont dream that far son.
> u can get such al mehdi hobblywobbly stories in every religion n cult.
> muslims are not god's(real god,not allah) favourite , and u dont need much intelligence to see that.



You Gardonstani......
Vedas also states about Last prophet and LAst Armaggedon..
Bible and Gospel also quotes about Last Prophet..
You often read Holy books..
Who told you muslim are God's favorite..
Read Quran whole As you read your desirable quote.
Quran is for all humanity,,,Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Budhists,
.........


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## nadirkahn

vishalgutsy said:


> For Israelis it is a matter of survival. They have nowhere to go. Palestinians have enough land to build their country and live happily. But that is not what they want. They want revenge and are readly to kill themselves for that. Most Palestinians prefer being killed in a nuclear bomb if the Jews are also going to be killed than leave side by side with the Jews and share the land with them.



You chootiye,,,
If israel really want peace then why they invades Gaza,,,Give them the independence....

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## vishalgutsy

nadirkahn said:


> You Gardonstani......
> Vedas also states about Last prophet and LAst Armaggedon..
> Bible and Gospel also quotes about Last Prophet..
> You often read Holy books..
> Who told you muslim are God's favorite..
> Read Quran whole As you read your desirable quote.
> Quran is for all humanity,,,Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Budhists,
> .........



ok, muslims are god's favorite , i take my words back.
are u happy now..??

now post on topic.


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## mikkix

vishalgutsy said:


> There will be peace in Palestine the day Palestinians put down their arms and start negotiating on equal terms.
> 
> This is not happening because Muslims hate the Jews gutturally.
> Palestinians are not homeless. After sixty years they are not refugees. Israelis built thier country from scratch during these years, Palestinians could have done the same. But their leaders got the money from USA, filled their bank accounts and financed war with Israel instead.
> Now the question is, if not in their ancestral land, where the Israelis should build their country. Where do you think they should go? Would Antarctica satisfy you or rather youd prefer they are sent to Mars?



You should go and pass your 12th Grade and plz make sure that History and Geography should be passed..


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## mikkix

vishalgutsy said:


> ok, muslims are god's favorite , i take my words back.
> are u happy now..??
> 
> now post on topic.



Whole world is Allah's creation..You are included..

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## TOPGUN

Msg to the one who started this thread stop causing tensions there is enough in the world.. you were not confussed about the video infact you knew exactly what you were doing when posting that stupid video.MODs plzz kindly close this thread.


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## Realist

@Vishal Gutsy.

It seems as you're preconceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are being set in stone and you will be difficult to convince.



> all those who say israel has captured palestinian land , please refute these verces



The verses are there for all to see. The fact is that muslims controlled those parts for over 1000 years, which can be proven.

Please provide evidence that the area in question was solely for Jews from the beginning of their state in ~2000b.c, until now.



> do u agree that the country isreal always existed in middle east as the quranic and biblical verces say , and therefore they have not stolen anyone else's land , and just got back their own land that was always theirs.
> or
> u think these quranic verces are wrong and there was no such nation called israel historically n jews have no right over the land of israel.



You would be a fool to say there wasnt ever a land called Israel. And you would be a fool to say that the jews are just reclaiming their land. Most of the jews in Israel are of European stock with no connection to the land, no roots other than Judaism. How many semitic Jews do you see as opposed to Ashkenazi?

Most of the jews that returned are of secular nature, and used the 'god gave me the land' argument when convenient for them.



> why do muslims claim that israel has stolen palestinian land , when in thier own quran its written that israel is land of jews.



Israel WAS the land where the jews came from, you seem to forget the 2000 odd years from then onto the present day. Why is that? 



> The truth is that the Jews never deserted Israel completely. Many of them have been living there forever. But their land was under the domination of other powers, such as the Romans, the Caliphs of Islam and the Ottoman Empire.



You seem to have the view that the world is static in boundaries and demographics to justify your position on Israel. This is a weak argument, and as you should know, emigration, expulsion, and changing political climate shape the world, not scripture.

The jews were living in Palestine as some would still attest. Zionism is what increased tension between the native population, as it lead to pretty much a massive influx of immigrants into already populated lands, with radically different ideologies to the natives. Of course conflicts were going to happen.



> but its muslims who have been crying over a tiny piece of land israel , which was never theirs.



For how many years did the Jews have a sizeable presence in the holy land? How many years for muslims. You will find the number very similar. 

You generalise too much, exposing your limited knowledge on the subject. Orthodox jews, Christians, muslims, AND atheistic secular jews are all 'crying' over the tiny piece of land.

To deny that the land was never really their just shows a lot of your mentality. You will have no sympathy for palestinans, muslims or arabs with regards to Israel, which you regard as superior in history, and present to them.



> There will be peace in Palestine the day Palestinians put down their arms and start negotiating on equal terms.



Do you not see the irony of this statement brother? Israel has the munitions, manpower and control to do with the Palis anything they wish. The ball is in THEIR court for peace, as Hamas and the PLO have stated that there will be peace, as pre the 1967 borders, halting to settlement growth and the RIGHT OF RETURN OF PALI REFUGEES. Israel deems this unnaceptable, hence the pro quo.



> This is not happening because Muslims hate the Jews gutturally.
> Palestinians are not homeless. After sixty years they are not refugees.



Im a muslim and i do not hate Israel. I know Palestinans who do not hate israel. You generalise. Please stop. This blood libel theory you are suggesting at it incorrect. Muslims and Jews HAVE lived in peace, and CAN live in peace.



> Israelis built thier country from scratch during these years, Palestinians could have done the same. But their leaders got the money from USA, filled their bank accounts and financed war with Israel instead.



Oh please. The nation of Israel had millions of highly educated refugees from Germany, USSR, USA performing aliyah to Israel brining a tonne of brain power. A brain gain unlike anything in history.

Back this up with generous funding from Europe and the US, and you have a nation that grew rapidly and became advanced much faster than the palistinians who were afforded no such luxuries.

Indeed, over 4 million refugees of Palistinan stock, which you refuse to recognise are prohibited from returning to their lands. How can a nation progress if half the population isnt allowed within it?



> Now the question is, if not in their ancestral land, where the Israelis should build their country. Where do you think they should go? Would Antarctica satisfy you or rather youd prefer they are sent to Mars?



Stop being so cocky. 

It is the ancestral land as much as it is the Palis.

Can you tell me the difference between the israelites and semitic arabs?

IDEOLOGY.



> For Israelis it is a matter of survival. They have nowhere to go.



Again, the irony escapes you.



> Palestinians have enough land to build their country and live happily. But that is not what they want.



The issue at hand is that they dop not have enough land. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. Land is continually being taken, by the growth of settlements, and divided by Israeli opnly roads, as well as the security wall which encroaches FAR into pali territory.

You have no facts. You have generalisations and idiocy.



> They want revenge and are readly to kill themselves for that.
> Most Palestinians prefer being killed in a nuclear bomb if the Jews are also going to be killed than leave side by side with the Jews and share the land with them.



How can you know this unless you asked every Pali what he wanted.

Palis are humans, of course they want peace and prosperity. You refuse to see this, because as i said, you have your preset biases and you will not change your view.

Palis and jews have lived together in the past, no issue. Now due to the influx of european zionism, and the subsequent rise in tensions, they do not live in peace. 

But if hamas can say they would acecpt peace with Israel, then pretty much anyone bar hitler could make peace with them.

Please stop seeing everything as black and white with regards to this issue.


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## vishalgutsy

TOPGUN said:


> Msg to the one who started this thread stop causing tensions there is enough in the world.. you were not confussed about the video infact you knew exactly what you were doing when posting that stupid video.MODs plzz kindly close this thread.



ok. so u agree that jews have every right over the land of israel , and they have every right to be there ?


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## mikkix

vishalgutsy said:


> dont dream that far son.
> u can get such al mehdi hobblywobbly stories in every religion n cult.
> muslims are not god's(real god,not allah) favourite , and u dont need much intelligence to see that.



Muslims are not Allah's favorite,,,You do your research first..
When you believed in Israel's prophecy then you should believed Mahdi's prophecy too,,,there is no need of inteligence is required...
For you I cant say....


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## mikkix

vishalgutsy said:


> ok. so u agree that jews have every right over the land of israel , and they have every right to be there ?



Jews have no right....
They invaded illegally,,,
The house you are living was once my house so plz get out of there..


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## vishalgutsy

@Realist

I am glad that not all Muslims want to drive the Jews into the sea. But Ahmadinejad has wowed to nuke Israel out of the face of the earth. He is also building atomic bomb and his allies, Hamas and Hezbollah, are just around the Israeli borders to whom he supplies missiles. You dont need to have all Muslims wanting your extinction. Only a few mad ones are enough. Not all the Germans were supporting Hitler, but nonetheless Hitler massacred six million Jews. 
After the horrors of the holocaust became known it was clear that Jews must have a homeland. Even Einstein, who at first was opposed to the idea, backed the plan. The obvious place was their ancestral land. If you call this a myth, you are calling Muhammad a liar. They were not given Israel because their god had promissed them that land, but because historically it was thiers.
Today, more than half of the Jews residing in Israel are refugees from Yemen, Iraq, Iran and other Islamic countries. 
Jews can live anywhere and thousands of years living as second class citizens has thought them that life can be harsh. They learned that if they dont strive hard they starve. So Jews went after science, knowledge and business and succeeded in life. Despite all the discrimination, thanks to thier experties, they were finacially better off than the majority. However, their success also had its downside. The losers often felt envious and made the Jews escepgoats for thier own miseries. 
They spread hate against the Jews, telling stories such as Jews want to take over the world, they invented the fable of the Elders of Zion, and other lies. Considering the lessons of history it is important that these people have a place that they can call home and be safe.Like i said earlier For Israelis it is a matter of survival. They have nowhere to go.
You ask what about the Palestinians. That is a fair question. But who are the Palestinians? Palestinians are partly Egyptians and partly Jordanians. They are not people of the land. Most of them are recent migrants. Palestine is a region. There has never been a country called Palestine for you to say Israelis have stolen our lands. And the Palestinians have enough land to build their country and live happily. 
If the Palestinians cannot tolerate Jews, they can go back to where they came from. They actually did that but once in Jordan they plotted to overthrow the government of King Hussein until he butchered them by thousands and kicked them out of his country. You people cant live in peace with anyone, not even with yourselves. You are a warrior people, or to put it bluntly, savages. 
If the Palestinians stop their violence and hatred against Israel, they can live in Israel and have full citizenship. Palestinians in Israel are treated well.On the other hand any jew in Palestine will be killed at sight. If the rest of them abandon violence the problem will be solved. But you dont want peace. Poor Anwar Sadat was assassinated for making peace with Israel. Any Palestinian politician who porposes peace with Israel will be killed on the spot. 

The war in the Middle East is not over land. It is over religious beliefs.


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## vishalgutsy

@Realist

now lets assume , that jews abondon that place and go to some other island.
will that automatically stop the bloodshed...???
offcourse not.

have a look at this video.


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## gambit

khalidali said:


> It does not mention how many you have to kill to consider it a genocide,...


A genocide *ALWAYS* imply mass wholesale killings of a very specifically targeted group whose members can distinguish themselves from others through unique characteristics that could be racial or cultural. Not only that, these killings must be a part of a systematic process. Systematic, not random as in the randomness of a street crime. The victims must carry those unique racial and/or cultural characteristics. They must be killed based solely upon those criteria, not because they have committed any crimes or even accused of any crime.



khalidali said:


> And who decides what is the number of kills before you can term it as a genocide.


Sadly enough, the more the more the word 'genocide' is casually used in rhetoric, the more people in the rest of the world gradually become immune to its moral seriousness when a true genocide occur. Like it or not, it is already happening. No one above the self appointed title of 'activist' take the charge of 'genocide' seriously when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinians conflict. They, the decision makers of the world, knows what is a true 'genocide' versus a rhetorically contrived one.


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## nadirkahn

vishalgutsy said:


> @Realist
> 
> now lets assume , that jews abondon that place and go to some other island.
> will that automatically stop the bloodshed...???
> offcourse not.
> 
> have a look at this video.
> 
> YouTube - About Hamas (palestinian terror) P1/2



India should be a better place for jews,,,I think Maharashtra province should become Israel..
In future if ISRAEL IS WIPED out then next Israel should be maharashtra..

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## nadirkahn

vishalgutsy said:


> @Realist
> 
> I am glad that not all Muslims want to drive the Jews into the sea. But Ahmadinejad has wowed to nuke Israel out of the face of the earth. He is also building atomic bomb and his allies, Hamas and Hezbollah, are just around the Israeli borders to whom he supplies missiles. You dont need to have all Muslims wanting your extinction. Only a few mad ones are enough. Not all the Germans were supporting Hitler, but nonetheless Hitler massacred six million Jews.
> After the horrors of the holocaust became known it was clear that Jews must have a homeland. Even Einstein, who at first was opposed to the idea, backed the plan. The obvious place was their ancestral land. If you call this a myth, you are calling Muhammad a liar. They were not given Israel because their god had promissed them that land, but because historically it was thiers.
> Today, more than half of the Jews residing in Israel are refugees from Yemen, Iraq, Iran and other Islamic countries.
> Jews can live anywhere and thousands of years living as second class citizens has thought them that life can be harsh. They learned that if they dont strive hard they starve. So Jews went after science, knowledge and business and succeeded in life. Despite all the discrimination, thanks to thier experties, they were finacially better off than the majority. However, their success also had its downside. The losers often felt envious and made the Jews escepgoats for thier own miseries.
> They spread hate against the Jews, telling stories such as Jews want to take over the world, they invented the fable of the Elders of Zion, and other lies. Considering the lessons of history it is important that these people have a place that they can call home and be safe.Like i said earlier For Israelis it is a matter of survival. They have nowhere to go.
> You ask what about the Palestinians. That is a fair question. But who are the Palestinians? Palestinians are partly Egyptians and partly Jordanians. They are not people of the land. Most of them are recent migrants. Palestine is a region. There has never been a country called Palestine for you to say Israelis have stolen our lands. And the Palestinians have enough land to build their country and live happily.
> If the Palestinians cannot tolerate Jews, they can go back to where they came from. They actually did that but once in Jordan they plotted to overthrow the government of King Hussein until he butchered them by thousands and kicked them out of his country. You people cant live in peace with anyone, not even with yourselves. You are a warrior people, or to put it bluntly, savages.
> If the Palestinians stop their violence and hatred against Israel, they can live in Israel and have full citizenship. Palestinians in Israel are treated well.On the other hand any jew in Palestine will be killed at sight. If the rest of them abandon violence the problem will be solved. But you dont want peace. Poor Anwar Sadat was assassinated for making peace with Israel. Any Palestinian politician who porposes peace with Israel will be killed on the spot.
> 
> The war in the Middle East is not over land. It is over religious beliefs.



Quran says about the land of israel for a particular period and it will be over soon..


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## Black Stone

The Jews are here to stay whether people like it or not. The sooner people accept this the better.

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## SomeGuy

Palestinians are native to the middle east.

A lot of the Jews coming into Israel are from Europe and America and have european ancestry.

Do you think that people with ancestry from other parts of the world coming in to displace native peoples is right?

Didn't the Israelites take the land from the Canaanites - Making them invaders themselves?

When the Romans created Palestine, the area was inhabited by Jews.
But people don't necessarily stay the same, these Jews probably converted to Christianity and later to Islam. So you could also say that modern Palestinians have an ancestral claim to the land as well.

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## Realist

@vishalgusty



> I am glad that not all Muslims want to drive the Jews into the sea. But Ahmadinejad has wowed to nuke Israel out of the face of the earth.



You cannot prove this brother, because he did not say this. This misquote is widespread, and understandibly so. It provides a perfect excuse to deny Iran nuclear technology.

If Pakistan could develop nukes to counter India, who could develop them to counter China, then Iran can in order to counter Israel. No nation will tolerate such a threat without a defence, and unfortunately, to defend against such weapons, you must have them yourself.



> He is also building atomic bomb and his allies, Hamas and Hezbollah, are just around the Israeli borders to whom he supplies missiles.



There is a gigantic leap between providing katyusha and anti tank missiles and providing a fully fledge nuclear bomb. That will never happen.



> You dont need to have all Muslims wanting your extinction. Only a few mad ones are enough. Not all the Germans were supporting Hitler, but nonetheless Hitler massacred six million Jews.



I agree, but i also feel that you are blowing the situation out of proportion. Saudi arabi has ties with Israel, as do Egypt and Turkey. These are the major Islamic nations, and so to say that muslims want to make Jews extinct is crazy. Did christians want to make jews extinct during WWII?



> After the horrors of the holocaust became known it was clear that Jews must have a homeland. Even Einstein, who at first was opposed to the idea, backed the plan.



A fun fact about Enstein, he wanted a state that did not call for the displacement of the native palistinans. If he could see israel today, he would be turning in his grave.

Please read this if you have time.

Einstein opposes Jewish State

A quote from the great man himself.



> I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state





> The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-minded and economic obstacles. I believe it is bad. I have always been against it





> The obvious place was their ancestral land. If you call this a myth, you are calling Muhammad a liar. They were not given Israel because their god had promissed them that land, but because historically it was thiers.



I am not denying the historicity of Israel, as you are the historicity of the Palestinans.



> Today, more than half of the Jews residing in Israel are refugees from Yemen, Iraq, Iran and other Islamic countries.



Please verify with a source. I do not think this to be true, especially after the influx of millions of Soviet jews.



> Jews can live anywhere and thousands of years living as second class citizens has thought them that life can be harsh. They learned that if they dont strive hard they starve.
> 
> So Jews went after science, knowledge and business and succeeded in life. Despite all the discrimination, thanks to thier experties, they were finacially better off than the majority. However, their success also had its downside.



I give Jews great credit for their abilities. They may have been second class citizens in Europe, but i say to you, that they were treated well in Muslims lands.

I put forward the example of Jews in andalucia under muslim rule. Also, when the catholics of Spain wished to convert jewry upon pain of death, it was the muslims, under teh ottoman Bayezid who provided them a safe haven in ottoman lands where they could prosper as equals.



> The losers often felt envious and made the Jews escepgoats for thier own miseries.



This applies to Europe, and everyone who thought themselves cheated by the banking system they percieved as jewish.

Indeed, both Hitler and Stalin gave speeches agains "international jewish financiers". Did the muslims say anything like this? Did they say, prior to the zionist influx, that jews were responsible for their misfortunes, as Europe did?



> They spread hate against the Jews, telling stories such as Jews want to take over the world, they invented the fable of the Elders of Zion, and other lies.



The Protocols was published in Russia.

Again, muslims had nothing to do with its publication. To imply that muslims were behind this, and similar publications is factualy incorrect. Europe has always been the most antisemitic place in the world, not muslims lands as you might think.



> Considering the lessons of history it is important that these people have a place that they can call home and be safe.Like i said earlier For Israelis it is a matter of survival.



There were calls for massive emigration to Palestine prior to the holocaust. The holocaust provided the extra support they needed to finally get what they wanted. Of course they need a home, we all do, but to sensationalise it so, is misleading, incorrect. 



> You ask what about the Palestinians. That is a fair question. But who are the Palestinians? Palestinians are partly Egyptians and partly Jordanians.



Irony escapes you yet again....Who are the Jews? Russians, Germans, Ukrainians, Hungarians? How are they from this land? How can they lay a claim if the Palestinians can not?



> Most of them are recent migrants. Palestine is a region. There has never been a country called Palestine for you to say Israelis have stolen our lands.



They have been linked to those lands for a long time. How ironic you mention 'recent migrants'. The recent migrants are the jews. Can you not see this? The migration of the jews has happened within the last 70 years only. I put it to you that there has been a land called Palestine, for many years. Read through some manuscripts. What did the arab armies call the land, Israel? No it was Palestine then, and it is Palestine now. It may not have had a resemblence of a nation at the time of jewish immigration as it had been a province of the Ottomans, and then the British. Was it the British mandate of _'israel'_ or 'Palestine'?



> And the Palestinians have enough land to build their country and live happily.



No they do not, and that is the whole issue here. What little land they do have is being diminished by growth of settlements. This is THE major obstacle to peace, and you cannot see this.



> If the Palestinians cannot tolerate Jews, they can go back to where they came from.



Where they came from...Where is that. I'm sure you have undertaken many genetic analyses to determine that they belong somewhere else. No, they belong there. I put it to you...that the jews cannot tolerate the palis. They should go back to where they came from. Europe. Do you not disagree?



> You people cant live in peace with anyone, not even with yourselves. You are a warrior people, or to put it bluntly, savages.



Would you say...barbarian?

You colours have emerged rendering your argument null and void.

You my friend have a superiority complex and an intense hatred of muslims. You will be biased, regardless of evidence, and will see the issue with a bias towards israel.



> If the Palestinians stop their violence and hatred against Israel, they can live in Israel and have full citizenship. Palestinians in Israel are treated well.



Is that why so many are unemployed and face discrimination daily?

Read this please if you have time.

Are Israeli Arabs the new African Americans? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News



> On the other hand any jew in Palestine will be killed at sight. If the rest of them abandon violence the problem will be solved.



Again, you fail to see the other side. You never will.

Israel has destroyed much of Pali infrastructure, blockades, curfews, settlements, israeli only roads and further humiliation. How can anyone not retaliate to being provoked like this. Israel is poking, poking, poking. When the palis react, Israel turns to people like you - "told you they were savages", and you lap it up.



> But you dont want peace.



I put it to you again friend. If HAMAS of all people want peace, what makes you say that "you people" dont want peace. They want the 1967 borders, a limit to settlement growth and east jerusalem as joint capital. This is unacceptable to Israel and people l;ike you who want israel to have all of jerusalem, as much land as they can extort and unlimited growth to settlements, which would end up englufing any Pali state established anyway.



> Poor Anwar Sadat was assassinated for making peace with Israel. Any Palestinian politician who porposes peace with Israel will be killed on the spot.



Yitzhak rabin was killed for making peace with arabs. Any Israeli politican who proposes peace with arabs will be killed on the spot.

See how that works brother?



> The war in the Middle East is not over land. It is over religious beliefs.



Of which the Israelis are also responsible.

Isnt their whole argument that 'god gave them the land'?

Also, are gentiles not deemed inferior to the Jews in their eyes?

So yes, you have got this one thing right.



> now lets assume , that jews abondon that place and go to some other island.
> will that automatically stop the bloodshed...???
> offcourse not.



It would be foolish to wish them away. Everyone recognises their right to exist. They are they, they will stay there. The Palis dont want to send them back to europe despite what you might hear one crackpot mullah say. They recognise that Israel is not going anywhere. The issue is, as it always has been their ever expanding borders, settlements and human rights abuses (of which both are guilty).


> have a look at this video.



I have seen that video. Can you not tell who it is produced by? In this day and age of propaganda, surely you must realise that the video you posted is an Israeli connection, as given away by the accent. Such a video is sensationalist and should not be posted with regards to any logical arguement. It is simply too biased in favour of one view.


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## Realist

The problem here is that there are too many extremists operating.

Right wing Israelis, and fundamentalist Palis. March them inro the desert and let them take our their anger on each other. Only then will the moderates on both sides be able to make any lasting peace.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

The white people have taken Sacred land of Native Americans and it should be given back to them in North America , The ancestral Burying Grounds are now under White people control (The movie Avatar comes into your mind). If Jews can have their promise land so should Native Americans, but wait "might is right" so sorry they can't have it back, if Arabs were mighty like white people Jews couldn't have taken an inch back. 

Hard line Religious Christian think that first promise land should be in total control of Jews for Jesus Christ to come again. 
Will Jesus Christ come as Christian or a Jew and if he comes as Christian what will happen to Jews, will they convert to Christianity.


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## Omar1984

SOCOM said:


> anyways why are all the hindus pro-israel? dravidians are not white..



so true brother. i think if the zionists saw these hindus in real life, they would be more racist against hindus than they are against arabs.

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## Omar1984

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> The white people have taken Sacred land of *Red Indians* and it should be given back to them in North America , The ancestral Burying Grounds are now under White people control (The movie Avatar comes into your mind). If Jews can have their promise land so should *Red Indians*, but wait "might is right" so sorry they can't have it back, if Arabs were mighty like white people Jews couldn't have taken an inch back.
> 
> Hard line Religious Christian think that first promise land should be in total control of Jews for Jesus Christ to come again.
> Will Jesus Christ come as Christian or a Jew and if he comes as Christian what will happen to Jews, will they convert to Christianity.



True, but the Native Americans find the term "indians" very offensive. I have met a Native American girl here in U.S. and she tells me that she and other Native Americans find it very offensive when people call them indian because they have no linkage with india what so ever, and Native Americans are much better looking. They look most similar to Mexicans and other South Americans than indians really.


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## SOCOM

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> The white people have taken Sacred land of Native Americans and it should be given back to them in North America , The ancestral Burying Grounds are now under White people control (The movie Avatar comes into your mind). If Jews can have their promise land so should Native Americans, but wait "might is right" so sorry they can't have it back, if Arabs were mighty like white people Jews couldn't have taken an inch back.
> 
> Hard line Religious Christian think that first promise land should be in total control of Jews for Jesus Christ to come again.
> Will Jesus Christ come as Christian or a Jew and if he comes as Christian what will happen to Jews, will they convert to Christianity.



Whats wrong with you? Jesus Christ will come as a Musilm. Haven't you read the Qur'an? Thats why the promise land should be in total control of Muslims.


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## Comet

^ sir, you are going to have BAN!

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## Omar1984

iron_man said:


> You need to visit new york to see what pakistani do in USA !!!



And lets see how indians are doing in the world:


Taxi driver from India killed in car crash in New York city. - PTI - The Press Trust of India Ltd. | HighBeam Research - FREE trial

Indian taxi driver in Australia stabbed in the lung

Indian taxi driver stabbed to death in New Zealand- Hindustan Times

Indian taxi driver thrashed, spat on face in Melbourne

Oz court refuses bail to Indian Cab driver over alleged rape - Worldnews.com

All the workers at Dunkin Donuts are Indian | Facebook



And we all remember Biden's remarks about indians in USA: 

"You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking". Joseph Biden, 47th Vice President of the United States of America

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## Indiarox

Thank you for putting that racist in his place
thank you TaimiKhan For deleting those posts


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## Aslan

gambit said:


> A genocide *ALWAYS* imply mass wholesale killings of a very specifically targeted group whose members can distinguish themselves from others through unique characteristics that could be racial or cultural. Not only that, these killings must be a part of a systematic process. Systematic, not random as in the randomness of a street crime. The victims must carry those unique racial and/or cultural characteristics. They must be killed based solely upon those criteria, not because they have committed any crimes or even accused of any crime.
> 
> 
> Sadly enough, the more the more the word 'genocide' is casually used in rhetoric, the more people in the rest of the world gradually become immune to its moral seriousness when a true genocide occur. Like it or not, it is already happening. No one above the self appointed title of 'activist' take the charge of 'genocide' seriously when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinians conflict. They, the decision makers of the world, knows what is a true 'genocide' versus a rhetorically contrived one.




Dude I have already posted the resolution that mentions the Term Genocide, go live with it.

For your slow brain this is the last time I will post the definition of Genocide accepted by the UN. 

*With the support of the United States, the resolution was placed before the General Assembly for consideration. Defining genocide in 1943, Lemkin wrote:
Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[13]*

*.any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
&#8211; Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II*


Now tell me where does it say that you have to have a wholesale killing to make it a genocide.


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## gambit

khalidali said:


> Dude I have already posted the resolution that mentions the Term Genocide, go live with it.


This is why I do not deem you worthy of my time. You cannot even understand your own source...!!!



> With the support of the United States, the resolution was placed before the General Assembly for consideration. Defining genocide in 1943, Lemkin wrote:
> Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, *except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation*.


As of now, you are on my dismissed list.

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## Aslan

gambit said:


> This is why I do not deem you worthy of my time. You cannot even understand your own source...!!!
> 
> 
> As of now, you are on my dismissed list.




Great Because i dont enjoy giving classes to social rejects; now when you have conveniently quoted one part of my source to make your point; 

*genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation.*

Surprisingly enough you missed the other;

*It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups
*


Now read this it might help your brain.

--``What we're seeing in Gaza now, is pretty much slow-motion genocide against the 1.5 million Palestinians who live in Gaza.... If you read the 1948 Genocide Convention, it clearly says that one instance of genocide is the deliberate infliction of conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of a people in whole or in part,'' stated Francis A. Boyle, professor of International Law at the University of Illinois in Champaign. ``And that's exactly what has been done to Gaza, since the imposition of the blockade by Israel; then the massacre of 1,400 Palestinians, two-thirds of whom were civilians, in Operation Cast Lead. And that also raises the element in the Genocide Convention, of murder, torture, and things of that nature.''
Boyle spoke to {EIR} on Jan. 15, 2010, giving his assessment of Gaza, one year after the Israeli attacks. He stressed that he was speaking only for himself.

While the Israelis stopped the artillery bombardment and air strikes just before the inauguration of President Barack Obama in 2009, the deaths of Palestinians continue--from lack of medicines, infrastructure, clean water, and everything else that the world community--as shown in emergency aid to Haiti--{knows} is necessary to sustain human life.

But no international action has been taken to stop genocide in Gaza--despite the finding by the UN's Goldstone Report that Israel committed war crimes in the wanton destruction of civilian infrastructure, and in the killing of civilians, and despite the Jan. 21, 2010 letter by more than 50 members of the U.S. Congress to President Obama that due to ``the unabated suffering of Gazan civilians,'' he must press to end the Israeli blockade.

Similarly, according to Turkish Prof. Bulent Aras, there is almost no hope for a peace agreement, or for ending the growing isolation of Israel from the international community, unless Gaza is opened and reconstruction begins. Aras was speaking on a Jan. 14 conference call, sponsored by the Turkish SETA and New America Foundations in Washington, D.C. He was addressing the recent tensions between Israel and Turkey after the Israeli Foreign Ministry insulted the Turkish ambassador, and on the collapse of the Turkish-mediated Israel/Syria negotiations, which ended with the Israeli attacks on Gaza.

According to Boyle, the question of the Gaza opening must be immediately taken up by the Obama Administration. ``We need all the openings to Gaza, the crossings from Egypt and Israel, opened immediately. {Massive} provision of humanitarian assistance, medical supplies to Gaza--exactly what Obama's doing today, with respect to Haiti--I support that! But why aren't they doing it to Gaza? You have 1.5 million people over there.

``Unless this step is undertaken, certainly on Gaza, relieving the people of Gaza with massive humanitarian relief supplies, I really think we're going to see a dog-and-pony show,'' being run by the Obama White House, and the sending of Sen. George Mitchell to the region.

So far, what the U.S. has done is, ``once again, provid[ed] diplomatic cover for Israel to stall and delay its objectives, and meanwhile, they continue to steal Palestinian lands, destroy their orchards, destroy their olive fields, and build more settlements. This has been going on, right from the beginning of the Middle East peace negotiations in 1991, when I was legal advisor to the Palestinians and the Syrians at that time.''

But, ``miracles can always happen: Look at the darkest days of the apartheid regime in South Africa, and all of that collapsed,'' said Boyle. ``Well, here we have another apartheid regime, Israel. It's apartheid to its core, it always has been. This whole situation could turn around and collapse very quickly--I just don't know. But I'll hang in there, certainly, with the Palestinians.''

And recent events in the field of international law lead Boyle to say that, as in the case of Chilean fascist Pinochet, law may catch up with Israeli criminals.

- No Immunity Under Nuremberg Codes -

Few international figures can speak in as much detail about the decades-long fight against Israeli war crimes, and the political blocks to prosecuting them, than Professor Boyle, who has led successful campaigns at the United Nations to bring war criminals--for example, those who committed crimes against the citizens of Bosnia-Herzogovina in the 1990s Balkan War--before an international tribunal.

Even before ``Operation Cast Lead,'' Boyle had proposed that the UN General Assembly establish an International Criminal Tribunal for Israel (ICTI) as a ``subsidiary organ'' under UN Charter Article 22. Boyle's proposal has been endorsed by Malaysia and Iran, and supported in General Assembly debates by some dozen Arab and Muslim nations.

His work on bringing Israelis to justice for war crimes goes back much further--to the 1982 massacres at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, conducted under the watch of top Israeli officials like Gen. Ariel Sharon and Gen. Amos Yaron.

Boyle told {EIR}, ``I think that I was probably the first lawyer ever to file a lawsuit against a major Israeli war criminal--that was back in about 1986, when I represented several women who were next of kin of the victims of the massacre of Sabra and Shatila, and I sued General Yaron, whose forces were occupying the Sabra and Shatila camps, and the whole massacre took place under his direction and control.''@s1

``I sued him ... about 1986. Eventually I lost the lawsuit, when the Reagan Administration entered the lawsuit through the State Department, and claimed that Yaron, since he was being admitted to the country and accredited as Israel's military attache@aa to Washington--which we tried to stop, and indeed, we held up for quite some time--had diplomatic privileges and immunities, could not be sued.''

``I dealt with that issue, saying that under the Nuremberg principles, there are no privileges and immunities in the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity.'' But the court decided that because Yaron got a ``formal certification'' by the Reagan Administration, ``this was a political question and the Court could not do anything to the contrary.'' But that was not the end of it. Since then, he has followed ``all the lawsuits against Israeli war criminals'' internationally, ``and they've really taken off, and they will take off'' further. In the U.S. he says, ``because of the pretty much Zionist control and domination of the American judiciary, none of these lawsuits have gotten anywhere,'' he says, but ``abroad, they are making progress.... ``I advise the Belgian lawyers. They filed another lawsuit, 20 years later [in 2002], against Yaron, Sharon, Elie Hobeika, and [Gen. Rafael] Eitan for the massacre at Sabra and Shatila,'' which was a criminal case. Boyle explained that the 2002 case came to an end {only after the Belgian law was changed by the Parliament under pressure}--because someone else had sued U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld under the same law. Rumsfeld threatened Belgium and NATO unless that law was rescinded, and Parliament killed it.

``But, at this point, it doesn't matter: The genie is out of the bottle. Twenty-five years ago, or so, when I filed that lawsuit [over Sabra and Shatila], there weren't too many lawyers qualified to do that work. Today, with the expansion of the human rights community, you have all sorts of lawyers qualified to do that work, and they're doing it.'' Asked about recent arrest warrants issued in Britain against Israeli officials, Boyle exclaimed, ``That's starting now! They're going after them in Britain; they're going after them in Belgium.... ``So, I think, eventually, we're going to get one of these people, just like the human rights lawyers in Britain got General Pinochet. Indeed, now we know, that before Israeli government officials travel abroad, they have to get legal advice as to where they can travel--which is good. Unfortunately, they can still pretty much freely travel here to the United States! And that's all they really care about.

``But they're really in a sort of pariah status now, in many other countries, especially in Europe. And that will continue, for sure.''

- Open Gaza Now; End Apartheid &#8211;

Nearly 30 years after Boyle's first lawsuit, U.S. policy still gives Israel impunity for war crimes, beginning with Gaza.

``In the Obama Administration, they are continuing to aid and abet the genocidal Israeli policies against the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza,'' Boyle told {EIR}. Just recently, the U.S. ``pressured the Egyptians to build a steel wall on the border of Gaza, to cut off Gaza, to stop the tunnels that were bringing food, relief supplies, medicines, and everything else to the people,'' he revealed. And it was done with the assistance of U.S. Army engineers. This ``makes a mockery of the claim by the Obama Administration and the alleged efforts by Senator Mitchell, to reconvene the Middle East peace negotiations,'' he said. And unless Mitchell and the Obama Administration are prepared to do something--immediately--to stop the war crimes in Gaza, then the mission will be just another ``dog-and-pony show.''

And now you are on my ignore list. As your worth is not even that of a grain of salt.

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## sulemani keeda

^^^

He said you are in dismissed list. Obviously cant read your elaboration.

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## smali183

sulemani keeda said:


> ^^^
> 
> He said you are in dismissed list. Obviously cant read your elaboration.



You are right....Kha.. is wasting time about telling the the truth because some are in this forum are.... deaf, dumb, and blind in the satuuation of the turth. sorry for my english

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## Aslan

smali183 said:


> You are right....Kha.. is wasting time about telling the the truth because some are in this forum are.... deaf, dumb, and blind in the satuuation of the turth. sorry for my english



It never hurts to say the truth, if the other person wants to put his/her head in the sand thats their problem.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

SOCOM said:


> Whats wrong with you? Jesus Christ will come as a Musilm. Haven't you read the Qur'an? Thats why the promise land should be in total control of Muslims.



The comment was about others religious believes , what they are thinking.


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## iron_man2

*Israel supporters rally in L.A. after raid on Gaza-bound flotilla*

Demonstrators show support for the Jewish state as it defends itself against an international outcry over the deadly raid.
June 06, 2010|By Alexandra Zavis, Los Angeles Times

Katie Falkenberg, For The Times

Supporters of Israel rallied in front of the country's consulate in Los Angeles on Sunday as the Jewish state continued to defend itself against an international outcry over a deadly raid on a pro-Palestinian aid flotilla bound for the Gaza Strip last week.

"Today we call all the world to wake up," said Israeli Consul General Jacob Dayan, who addressed the cheering crowd while wrapped in his national flag. "Those who led the flotilla were not peace activists. Those who tried to murder our soldiers were not freedom fighters."
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Protesters said Israel has been unfairly criticized for enforcing a blockade that is necessary to prevent weapons from reaching Hamas, the militant Palestinian group that controls Gaza and refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist.

"Every other country in the world has the right to defend itself, and Israel, which does it in a very humanitarian way, is vilified and damned," said Ira Cohen, a Los Angeles podiatrist who held up a handwritten sign saying, "Mr. President, you must support Israel."

Los Angeles police estimated the crowd in front of the consulate in the 6300 block of Wilshire Boulevard at about 2,200. It was the latest of several recent Los Angeles demonstrations supporting and opposing Israel's raid.

Israel's actions have brought widespread international condemnation and threatened its relations with Turkey, once an important Muslim ally. Nine activists were killed last Monday in a clash with Israeli commandos who rappelled from helicopters onto the Turkish-owned Mavi Marmara. On Saturday, Israel's navy seized another protest vessel trying to reach the Gaza Strip without incident.

Aid groups say the blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt has done little to weaken Hamas and has devastated Gaza's economy, leaving 80&#37; of the territory's 1.5 million residents dependent on international aid. The Obama administration says it is working quietly to persuade Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to relax the policy.

A parade of local and state politicians dropped by Sunday's demonstration, which was organized by the Israeli Consulate, the Jewish Federation of Greater Los Angeles and other community groups. They included Republican gubernatorial candidate Steve Poizner, Republican Senate contender Chuck DeVore, U.S. Rep. Brad Sherman (D- Sherman Oaks), Los Angeles City Controller Wendy Greuel and City Council members Paul Koretz and Janice Hahn.


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## EjazR

Israeli MP who was on the flotilla "tries" to make a statement in the Knesset


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## Ahmad

iron_man2 said:


> *Israel supporters rally in L.A. after raid on Gaza-bound flotilla*
> 
> .



what did they have to defend? murder of people and protecting murderers?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

EjazR said:


> Israeli MP who was on the flotilla "tries" to make a statement in the Knesset
> 
> YouTube - knesset members attacks haneen zoabi after free gaza fortilla



goodness, and I thought our parliament was full of wild animals.

they cant even let the lady talk without being interrupted......and then at the end they manhandle her

this is how they treat women (officials at that) over there???


moral decay, denial, fungus and mildew. thats what i think of people like the ones in that room


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## Solomon2

IHH Preparations for a Violent Confrontation with IDF Soldiers
Aboard the Turkish Ship Mavi Marmara 

16. Preparations for the confrontation with the IDF included the following:

A. Briefing the hard core before the IDF takeover (briefing carried out by Bülent Yildirim).

B. Separating the volunteer passengers from the hard core and sending them below (all passengers who did not contribute to resisting the IDF were ordered below decks and told to stay there).

C. Donning ceramic vests and gas masks.

D. Arming themselves with cold weapons which had been collected and manufactured on board the ship. They included knives, axes, tools, metal cables and metal clubs which had been sawed off the ships railings (using disks which had been brought along for the purpose). Metal screw-nuts were strewn on deck to make footing uncertain.

Disks for cutting the railings, and metal cables
Disks for cutting the railings, and metal cables
(IDF Spokesman, June 3, 2010).

17. The IHH operatives were instructed not to allow the IDF soldiers to board the ship and to throw those who did manage to board into the sea. Close to the time of the IDF boarding, IHH head Bülent Yildirim gave orders to his hard core operatives to form a human chain and to use chairs and clubs to beat back the soldiers and throw them into the sea.

18. When the Israeli Navy boats which approached the ship threw grappling hooks to board the ships, the operatives removed them and threw them back.

Pictures taken by security cameras aboard the Mavi MarmaraPictures taken by security cameras aboard the Mavi Marmara document the preparations
made by the pro-Palestinian operatives to attack the IDF (IDF Spokesman, June 3, 2010).

Weapons Found on Board the Ship

19. The following weapons, which according to statements had been prepared in advance:

A. One hundred ceramic vests imprinted with the Turkish flag. They were worn by IHH operatives as well as doctors and correspondents (as part of preparations for violence)...

***

Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal?

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?

*Yes it can, according to the law of blockade* which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

"On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

WHAT ARE INTERNATIONAL WATERS?

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign. Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

"However, strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters," Roche said.

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

*Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.*

CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

*Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.*

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."

OPPONENTS HAVE CALLED ISRAEL'S RAID "PIRACY." WAS IT?

*No, as under international law it was considered a state action.
*
"Whether what Israel did is right or wrong, it is not an act of piracy. Piracy deals with private conduct particularly with a pecuniary or financial interest," Kraska said.

HAVE THERE BEEN ANY SHIPPING DISRUPTIONS AFTER THE RAID?

None so far but the International Chamber of Shipping (ICS), an association which represents 75 percent of the world's merchant fleet, has expressed "deep concern" over the boarding by Israeli forces, arguing that merchant ships have a right to safe passage and freedom of navigation in international waters.

"These fundamental principles of international law must always be upheld by all of the world's nations," the ICS said.

***

All legal arguments criticizing Israel that I have seen are general charges that proponents try to apply, ignoring that specific laws exist dealing with this matter. It is like a defendant arguing in court that the police had no right to arrest him for speeding because the police car had to break the speed limit to catch him.

The Arab press - even the liberals - now crows that the mission wasn't about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, plain and simple. link

Perhaps Israel's leaders should welcome a fair international investigation into the incident. Israel didn't do anything criminal or excessive and has nothing to hide. Who, exactly, would be embarrassed by such proceedings?

In the end Hamas has refused the aid from the intercepted flotilla. link Even so, Israel continues normal supply operations to Gaza.

Once more I am convinced the label I originally used to describe this incident applies: *a depraved plot*.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

lol @ Soloman

dude, just give up. Arent you american, why are you being their apologist and propaganda mouthpiece?










is there something we should know


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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Arent you american, why are you being their apologist and propaganda mouthpiece?


Who do I have to be? You think it isn't my business? Or yours?

_"Business!" cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"_

I know what I'm doing, Abu Zolfiqar. What are _you_ up to?


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## blain2

Solomon,

The only one you are convincing is yourself. Regardless of all the PR the Israeli side does, the facts and the names of the dead are in front of the entire world.

You can sit there all day long talking about "preparations" of the people to defend the Israeli takeover, but where does that leave the preparations of the Israeli SF who were training for weeks on how they would go about taking over?

I think after 2000 posts on this thread, most of us already have a pretty good idea who was and is on the wrong side.

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## Solomon2

blain2 said:


> I think after 2000 posts on this thread, most of us already have a pretty good idea who was and is on the wrong side.


So there are no more questions of fact, yes? Excellent. There is only this question:

_*Why are you not openly endorsing the Israelis for killing the militants who assaulted them?*_


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## Kompromat

Solomon2 said:


> So there are no more questions of fact, yes? Excellent. There is only this question:
> 
> _*Why are you not openly endorsing the Israelis for killing the militants who assaulted them?*_




What do you smoke solomon


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## Kompromat

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/60652-report-aid-workers-flotilla-were-shot-30-times.html


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## Kompromat

@ Mods 

Please edit the tags made by our Indian friends.


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## Jigs

Black Blood said:


> What do you smoke solomon



Something i need to get my hands on


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## Forrest Griffin

Solomon2 said:


> So there are no more questions of fact, yes? Excellent. There is only this question:
> 
> _*Why are you not openly endorsing the Israelis for killing the militants who assaulted them?*_



You are one of the most annoying members on PDF. I gather you have not much friends in real life.


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## Pasban

Salam. 

These are the Martyrs on the Flotilla.

1. Ibrahim Bilgen, 61. Electrical Engineer. Married with six children






2. Ali Haydar Bengi, 39. Arabic literature graduate. Married with four children





3. Cevdet Kiliçlar, 38. Journalist. Married with two children





4. Cetin Topçuoglu, 54. Taekwondo champion. Married with one son





5. Necdet Yildirim, 32. IHH aid worker. Married with one daughter





6. Fahri Yaldiz, 43. Firefighter. Married with four sons





7. Cengiz Songür, 47 from Izmir. Married with 7 children





8. Cengiz Akyüz, 41. From Iskenderun. Married with three children

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## Pasban

9. Furkan Dogan, 19. Turkish-American dual national and student





Al-ManarTV:: Putting Names to Faces of Turkish Martyrs 08/06/2010

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## LegionnairE

Pasban said:


> 9. Furkan Dogan, 19. Turkish-American dual national and student
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Al-ManarTV:: Putting Names to Faces of Turkish Martyrs 08/06/2010


Thats the most sad one, he got shot from his head 4 times...

His murdered brutally for no reason  I think Israeli soldiers especially shot him because he was holding camera


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## turkaholic

LegionnairE said:


> Thats the most sad one, he got shot from his head 4 times...
> 
> His murdered brutally for no reason  I think Israeli soldiers especially shot him because he was holding camera



Here's how he was murdered. He was first beaten by the Israeli soldiers while he was down and shot 4 times. Watch the video. It is one of the saddest videos I have ever seen. 

SOLOMON, THIS IS FOR YOU TO WATCH!!! But I am sure, sucking Israeli balls feels much better for you.

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## Solomon2

turkaholic said:


> Here's how he was murdered. He was first beaten by the Israeli soldiers while he was down and shot 4 times. atch the video.


The video is unclear to me. Certainly there is not enough context to justify the label "murder". This is "war ****" designed to inflame and stifle people's thinking, not evidence.

For the laws and facts are no longer in dispute: the Israelis had the right to board the ship in international waters yet militants had prepared and launched a premeditated attack upon them. So my question remains:

_*Why are you not openly endorsing the Israelis for killing the militants who assaulted them?*_


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## Aslan

Solomon2 said:


> The video is unclear to me. Certainly there is not enough context to justify the label "murder". This is "war ****" designed to inflame and stifle people's thinking, not evidence.
> 
> For the laws and facts are no longer in dispute: the Israelis had the right to board the ship in international waters yet militants had prepared and launched a premeditated attack upon them. So my question remains:
> 
> _*Why are you not openly endorsing the Israelis for killing the militants who assaulted them?*_



I had posted this earlier, even though you are not worth wasting time on but still read it, it will make no difference to you. But it clearly talks about the same hypocrites like you. Enjoy. 
*
I have, of course, been outraged at armed men boarding ships in international waters, killing passengers on board who attempt to resist and then forcing their ship to the hijackers' home port. I am, of course, talking about the Somali pirates who are preying on Western ships in the Indian Ocean. How dare those terrorists dare to touch our unarmed vessels on the high seas? And how right we are to have our warships there to prevent such terrorist acts.

But whoops! At least the Israelis have not demanded ransom. They just want to get journalists to win the propaganda war for them. Scarcely had the week begun when Israel's warrior "commandos" stormed a Turkish boat bringing aid to Gaza and shot nine of the passengers dead. Yet by week's end, the protesters had become "armed peace activists", vicious anti-Semites "professing pacifism, seething with hate, pounding away at another human being with a metal pole". I liked the last bit. The fact that the person being beaten was apparently shooting another human being with a rifle didn't quite get into this weird version of reality.*

Robert Fisk: The truth behind the Israeli propaganda - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

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## Solomon2

"I have, of course, been outraged at armed men boarding ships in international waters -"

If a policeman pulls over your car and impounds your vehicle does that make him the moral equal of the criminal who does the same?


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## M8R

Solomon2 said:


> "I have, of course, been outraged at armed men boarding ships in international waters -"
> 
> If a policeman pulls over your car and impounds your vehicle does that make him the moral equal of the criminal who does the same?


If policeman pulls a car off duty or out of his department jurisdiction tthen then he is wrong.


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## Solomon2

^^^^^
A false analogy. This discussion reached the point where it was conceded that the Israelis were within their rights, as a belligerent with a declared blockade, to board a ship in international waters which claimed it was delivering humanitarian relief to the other belligerent.


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## sparklingway

Solomon2 said:


> "I have, of course, been outraged at armed men boarding ships in international waters -"
> 
> If a policeman pulls over your car and impounds your vehicle does that make him the moral equal of the criminal who does the same?



You've been using similar policemen ideologies for the past weeks to condone barbaric and inhumane attacks by Israel in international waters against unarmed civilians carrying relief good to people living in desperate poverty because of the Israeli blockade. Regardless of the intentions of the aid convoy, Israel had no legal or moral justification to launch an armed attack in international waters. A PR spin on the internet cannot justify murder in any way.

Indeed being well spoken, articulate or good at rhetoric does not mean that one cannot be heartless and act coldly towards the murders of innocent people. All that takes is a bit of religion, nationalism, ideological and geo-political sympathies. Declaring the people in Gaza as belligerent and defending the attack on this basis can only be expected of people who cannot help but act coldly towards the murders of activists who meant no harm.

People condoning this violence or even defending this in any way have no right whatsoever to complain against Taliban and terrorist sympathizers anymore. Neither do I care to respond to any further arguments from your side nor do I expect any sane person to be won over by your arguments.

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## gambit

sparklingway said:


> You've been using similar policemen ideologies for the past weeks to condone barbaric and inhumane attacks by Israel in international waters against unarmed civilians carrying relief good to people living in desperate poverty because of the Israeli blockade. *Regardless of the intentions of the aid convoy, Israel had no legal or moral justification to launch an armed attack in international waters.* A PR spin on the internet cannot justify murder in any way.


Being in international waters does not automatically confer immunity from boarding. If anything, an intention to trespass a blockade justified boarding in international waters prior to entering the blockade zone. Sorry...But maritime laws regarding 'naval blockade' support Israel in this.



sparklingway said:


> Indeed being well spoken, articulate or good at rhetoric does not mean that one cannot be heartless and act coldly towards the murders of innocent people. All that takes is a bit of religion, nationalism, ideological and geo-political sympathies. Declaring the people in Gaza as belligerent and defending the attack on this basis can only be expected of people who cannot help but act coldly towards the murders of *activists who meant no harm.*


Those 'activists' did mean harm. Five out of six ships complied to Israeli request for boarding. The sixth ship resisted because most likely they were alerted to the fact that Israeli troops were armed with only paintball guns and pistols. No boarding troops, not even US Coast Guard sailors, would board any vessel armed with paintball guns. No one sane would make the assumption that if his ship is going to be boarded, the blockading authority would be sending troops armed with paintball guns. So if the sixth ship resisted it only meant they knew of this weakness and decided to resist with improvised weapons. They were hardly 'peaceful'.


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## Hussein

gambit said:


> Those 'activists' did mean harm. Five out of six ships complied to Israeli request for boarding. The sixth ship resisted because most likely they were alerted to the fact that Israeli troops were armed with only paintball guns and pistols. No boarding troops, not even US Coast Guard sailors, would board any vessel armed with paintball guns. No one sane would make the assumption that if his ship is going to be boarded, the blockading authority would be sending troops armed with paintball guns. So if the sixth ship resisted it only meant they knew of this weakness and decided to resist with improvised weapons. They were hardly 'peaceful'.



LOL
If i was reading you without knowing the facts i wouldn't understand people are dead.


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## All-Green

gambit said:


> Being in international waters does not automatically confer immunity from boarding. If anything, an intention to trespass a blockade justified boarding in international waters prior to entering the blockade zone. Sorry...But maritime laws regarding 'naval blockade' support Israel in this.
> 
> 
> Those 'activists' did mean harm. Five out of six ships complied to Israeli request for boarding. The sixth ship resisted because most likely they were alerted to the fact that Israeli troops were armed with only paintball guns and pistols. No boarding troops, not even US Coast Guard sailors, would board any vessel armed with paintball guns. No one sane would make the assumption that if his ship is going to be boarded, the blockading authority would be sending troops armed with paintball guns. So if the sixth ship resisted it only meant they knew of this weakness and decided to resist with improvised weapons. They were hardly 'peaceful'.



How do we know they meant harm and started the violence?
If they meant harm they would have been armed accordingly.
Those who mean harm and walk into hostile territory carry big guns.
Don't you think the people on board were at least aware of what IDF does to those who attack, even if unarmed?

At the end of the day the people on board were killed by real Israeli bullets, that is the fact of the matter so let us not go into the whole paintball scenario!

Let us look at it from another angle if people here are now reconstructing events to justify what IDF does.
Let me reconstruct events as well.
Many would agree that it would be perfectly in line with what IDF has been doing in the past.
_
The ships belonged to a neutral nation and the shipment was inspected by the neutral nation as well.
IDF knows that if it finds nothing contraband in all six vessels then they would have to let the flotilla pass under International law...
So what do they come up with?
They deliberately rough up the people on board one of the vessels to infuriate them and when they react an armed conflict takes place in which IDF manages to kill people (since they have more than paintball guns) and the entire episode is cited as an excuse to block the passage of the flotilla._

If Turkish warships had escorted the flotilla, Israel could not even board the flotilla.
As per international law, the guarantee of a neutral nation with accompanying warships, renders the right of inspection by the blockading country as null and void.

Let us leave the rules of engagement which apply in case of a justified war time blockade for a moment.

Does the UN support the blockade?
Does the world support Israel on the blockade except USA which does it mostly out of its strategic interests?
We are discussing that Israel is running a blockade as if it is a legal and humane action, it is a most brutal act in every sense of the word and has to be condemned...
No mention of protocol would legitimize the blockade

The UN office for coordination of humanitarian affairs has state in May 2010 that formal economy has collapsed in Gaza.
What will this lead to?
Peace or violence?
Will this push the common man towards vengeance or silent acceptance of his fate?

Gaza is situated on the coast and has access to international waters.
Gaza has a significant fishing industry which has also suffered a lot.

Regardless of any justification, the blockade of Gaza is only making matters worse!
Its impact on the prospects of peace (for benefit of any party) is extremely negative...the people of Gaza are suffering tremendously under an inhuman act of denying them basic commodities of life in adequate numbers!
When the lives of so many people are damaged and shaken up to the core the resulting hatred will breed violence in all segments of Palestinian society since the discrimination is universally applicable on them all...
However when the violence erupts...it is will be the crazy Palestinian who is to be blamed for being violent, unreasonable and bloodthirsty.
Then we shall all wonder why he throws stones at Israeli soldiers and fire bullets at Israeli tanks which naturally have to take action by firing back.
Then we suggest that Palestinians become pacifists and absolutely peaceful so that the world truly understands them and does not see them in a negative light.

At the end of the day words are wind, the fact of the matter is that the same people who will condemn violence from the Palestinian side will be quite mute in comparison when Israel is pushing Gazans into a corner and making life unsustainable for the common man.

Let us examine what the UN fact finding mission has to say about it.
Here is the link for detailed reading.
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/9B63490FFCBE44E5C1257632004EA67B?opendocument

I will quote an excerpt here, highlighted in blue.

The Report states that Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed.

The report underlines that in most of the incidents investigated by it, and described in the report, loss of life and destruction caused by Israeli forces during the military operation was a result of disrespect for the fundamental principle of &#8220;distinction&#8221; in international humanitarian law that requires military forces to distinguish between military targets and civilians and civilian objects at all times. The report states that &#8220;*Taking into account the ability to plan*, the *means to execute* plans with the *most developed technology available*, and *statements by the Israeli military** that almost no errors occurred, the Mission finds that the incidents and patterns of events considered in the report are the result of deliberate planning and policy decisions.&#8221;*

For example, Chapter XI of the report describes a number of specific incidents in which Israeli forces launched &#8220;direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcome.&#8221; These are, it says, *cases in which the facts indicate no justifiable military objective pursued by the attack and concludes they amount to war crimes*. The incidents described include:
Attacks in the Samouni neighbourhood, in Zeitoun, south of Gaza City, including the *shelling of a house where soldiers had forced Palestinian civilians to assemble;*
Seven incidents concerning &#8220;the *shooting of civilians while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place*, waving white flags and, in some of the cases, *following an injunction from the Israeli forces to do so*;&#8221;
The targeting of a mosque at prayer time, resulting in the death of 15 people.

*A number of other incidents the Report concludes may constitute war crimes include a direct and intentional attack on the Al Quds Hospital and an adjacent ambulance depot in Gaza City.* 

Sadly the only country to officially support Israel is USA, i hope it changes its stance and holds Israel accountable to its crimes, lest the situation reaches a point where there is indeed no hope of turning back and blind American support is seen as the root cause of the events that befall the ordinary man in Gaza.

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## fatman17

the state of Israel will continue to 'perpetuate' its policy of denying the palestenians their right to live in the holy lands as long as the US keeps looking the other way. what was the reaction of the Obama admn on the 'peace flotilla' - "we are disturbed by what has happened"!!! - this is like a 'spoilt brat' getting a ruler on his knuckles and the episode is over.

in the recent past history of the US admns (~20-30 years) only President R/Reagan had the 'guts' to actually 'suspend' delivery of military goods to Israel but had to lift the suspension after only 1-yr due to un-surmountable pressure from the jewish/zionist lobbies which practically 'control' the congress.

when Israel launched its operations against the palestinians in ~00/01, George Bush in a white-house press confrence 'ordered' Israel to 'stand-down' but Israel 'ignored' this order from its 'benefactor' and did what it wanted to do and continues to do so........until Israel is not 'isolated' 100&#37;, countries like the US, UK, Germany, India will continue to look the other way and it will be business as usual with this jewish state!!!

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## Solomon2

All-Green said:


> How do we know they meant harm and started the violence?...


You're backtracking. This is no longer in dispute.



> At the end of the day the people on board were killed by real Israeli bullets -


At the end of the day the militants attacked a peaceful and lawful boarding party and drew first blood.



> Many would agree that it would be perfectly in line with what IDF has been doing in the past.


Have you never considered that one set up lies is built up upon another?



> As per international law, the guarantee of a neutral nation with accompanying warships, renders the right of inspection by the blockading country as null and void.


Not at all.



> Does the UN support the blockade?
> Does the world support Israel on the blockade except USA which does it mostly out of its strategic interests?


Is this a popularity contest?



> We are discussing that Israel is running a blockade as if it is a legal and humane action, it is a most brutal act in every sense of the word and has to be condemned...the people of Gaza are suffering tremendously under an inhuman act of denying them basic commodities of life in adequate numbers!


With 15,000 tons a week of supplies passing through Israel to Gaza, if it is a "brutal act" it is certainly a mild and measured one. 

Nor do I believe you care about Gaza, or you would have also protested Hamas' refusal to let donated supplies into the country.



> No mention of protocol would legitimize the blockade


A red herring. There is no question of "protocol" There is only the stark fact that EVERYTHING ISRAEL DID WAS LEGITIMATE!



> The UN office for coordination of humanitarian affairs has state in May 2010 that formal economy has collapsed in Gaza.
> What will this lead to?
> Peace or violence?...Regardless of any justification, the blockade of Gaza is only making matters worse!


If arms or the capacity to manufacture them are allowed in to Gaza, then violence will certainly follow. Would you like that better?



> Will this push the common man towards vengeance or silent acceptance of his fate?


"Vengeance or silent acceptance of his fate?" That's _gross!_ Men shouldn't be worms to be squashed into the mud by force of arms. That is what Hamas does to the Palestinians. And you endorse this, holding that the only way out of this is for the victims to join the thugs!



> When the lives of so many people are damaged and shaken up to the core the resulting hatred will breed violence in all segments of Palestinian society since the discrimination is universally applicable on them all.


The flotilla had nothing at all to do with alleviating this. If you really cared, you would have recommended remedial therapy, yes?



> At the end of the day words are wind


So the truth that Israelis and Jews are victimized by many Arabs doesn't matter to you, does it?



> the fact of the matter is that the same people who will condemn violence from the Palestinian side will be quite mute in comparison when Israel is pushing Gazans into a corner


There you go again, braying that all violence is created equal!



> Let us examine what the UN fact finding mission has to say -


You're changing the subject.



fatman17 said:


> the state of Israel will continue to 'perpetuate' its policy of denying the palestenians their right to live in the holy lands -


Is it not your "policy" that your neighbor lives in _his_ house, not your own? 

That raises the larger question of by what right do people live where they live? I suggest you study WWI and Middle East history starting when the Ottomans rationalized the system of land ownership in Palestine and continuing up to 1947. 

But I think you have given me an answer: despite the fact that everything Israel did in the flotilla incident was perfectly legal, whereas what the militants did was illegal, _*Pakistanis won't openly condemn the militants because their public sympathy is with Muslim power, not the law, not the Jews, nor even the well-being of Muslims themselves.*_

And you wonder why Israel exists and why Pakistan is in so much trouble today? Can you now grasp that it is all connected, but not in the way you have been previously taught?


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## Admiral

i think no need to talk more on this thread gentelmen. there is one thing certain. israel lost Turkey, and Turkey is a side of palastine problem now. Everything will be harder for israel after this point.
the rest is not necessary for me


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## Solomon2

Admiral said:


> israel lost Turkey, and Turkey is a side of palastine problem now.


Do you really want Turkey to travel the road to becoming another Pakistan, rent from within and striking mercilessly without?


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## Pasban

Solomon2 said:


> *rent from within and striking mercilessly without?*



Could you further explain or clarify this part of your statement. Mainly, what do you mean by _rent from within_?


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## Solomon2

Pasban said:


> what do you mean by _rent from within_?


When you follow the road of rule-_by_-law rather than rule-_of_-law then who ever is at the helm holds too much power over the people. Citizens become subjects. Injustices multiply and cannot be heard in court. The injustices result in the search for alternatives and, eventually, separation with violence.


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## Admiral

Solomon2 said:


> When you follow the road of rule-_by_-law rather than rule-_of_-law then who ever is at the helm holds too much power over the people. Citizens become subjects. Injustices multiply and cannot be heard in court. The injustices result in the search for alternatives and, eventually, separation with violence.




A zionist is the last person who can teach us how to act. As i told before, dog barks but caravan goes on  Dont try to give me moral lessons Solomon. dont you have even a piece of honor? so much hypocrisy is enough i guess...


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## Solomon2

Admiral said:


> A zionist is the last person who can teach us how to act.


"Us?"



> Dont try to give me moral lessons Solomon. dont you have even a piece of honor?


Do I not expose the guilty, defend the innocent, and offer charity through enlightenment to the stranger?

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## Admiral

Solomon2 said:


> "Us?"
> 
> Do I not expose the guilty, defend the innocent, and offer charity through enlightenment to the stranger?




Keep cycling mumbo jumbo... play on words and meanings just like kids. Go on Solomon, go on... you are very wise and i m your admirer. you are my role model  please share your wisdom with me and earn this infidel during your journey to the eternal light...


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## Solomon2

No One Cares About Gaza

Michael J. Totten - 06.10.2010 - 1:47 PM

You might think that with all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Gaza lately, the Palestinian suffering would move people like no other cause in the world, but if so, you would be wrong. Few activists, journalists, or diplomats genuinely seem to care what those people are going through.

Consider this: Hamas, not Israel, refuses to allow donated food and medicine in. If its collective punishment when Israel restricts certain items, what should we call it when Hamas refuses all of the items? Few seem to have given it any thought. So far I havent found a single person indignant about the Israeli blockade who has said or written a word about Hamas refusing to allow donated goods into the territory. Even those who actually donated and delivered the items are quiet about it.

And consider what Palestinian journalist Khaled Abu Toameh wrote at the Hudson New York website on Tuesday. He describes how the Hamas raid on several non-governmental and human-rights organization offices recently was largely ignored by the media, how Hamas banned municipal elections, how hundreds have been arrested for protesting its draconian rule, and how dozens of opposition leaders have been jailed or killed since the terrorist army seized power. Under Hamas, he writes, the Gaza Strip is being transformed into a fundamentalist Islamic entity resembling the regimes of the Ayatollahs in Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

And yet, for the most part, the only people who vigorously protest Hamas are Palestinians, Israelis, and Israels supporters in Western countries. Most pro-Palestinian activists in the Middle East and the West hardly say anything about the Taliban of the Eastern Mediterranean except when cheering them on at creepy rallies.

An extraordinary amount of time and energy has been spent in the last ten days denouncing Israel for its supposedly inhumane treatment of Gaza, but Hamas  under which Palestinians fare orders of magnitude worse  gets a pass from most of the people yelling at Israel. Its not hard to figure out who and what all the fuss is really about. If Gaza werent at war with a half-Western Jewish country, Palestinians who suffer as a result would get no more attention than victims of the civil conflict in Yemen.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

What About Hamas's Siege of Gaza?

by Khaled Abu Toameh
June 8, 2010 at 5:00 am

As Israeli naval commandos raided the flotilla ship convoy that was on its way to the Gaza Strip, Hamas security officers stormed the offices of five non-governmental organizations, confiscated equipment and documents, and ordered them closed indefinitely.

Ever since it seized control over the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2007, Hamas has imposed a reign of terror on the local population in general and its critics in particular. Hamas has brought nothing to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip other than death and disaster.

The raid on the NGOs in the Gaza Strip, which received little coverage in the media, is seen by many Palestinians as part of Hamas's ongoing crackdown on political opponents and human rights organizations.

Further, Hamas's recent decision to ban municipal elections in the Gaza Strip is yet another violation of one of the basic rights of its constituents.

Hundreds of Palestinians have been arrested by Hamas's security forces for daring to speak out against the state of tyranny and intimidation in the Gaza Strip. Over the past three years, dozens of Fatah officials and members have either been thrown into prison or killed.

Under Hamas, the Gaza Strip is being transformed into a fundamentalist Islamic entity resembling the regimes of the Ayatollahs in Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

While there is no ignoring the fact that Hamas originally came to power in a free and democratic election in January 2006, this does not give the movement the right to impose a social, intellectual, political and economic blockade on the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

Instead of searching for ways to improve the living conditions of the 1.5 million Palestinians of the Gaza Strip, Hamas is busy enforcing strict Islamic rules on the population, such as Hamas policemen, for example, often stopping men and women who are seen together in public to inquire about the nature of their relationship.

Since the kidnapping of IDF soldier Gilad Schalit in 2006, more than 3,500 Palestinians have been killed, many of them during Operation Cast Lead which followed the firing of rockets at Israel.

The kidnapping of Schalit and the rocket attacks have made the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip pay a very heavy price.

If Hamas were really serious about ending the blockade on the Gaza Strip and helping the poor people living there, it would have accepted at least shown some pragmatism in dealing with the outside world.

Hamas could have, for instance, accepted the international community's demand to renounce terrorism and honor all previous agreements signed between the Palestinians and Israel. Moreover, it could have allowed representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit Schalit.

Hamas, however, is more interested in clinging to power than in serving its people; and in light of increased calls for lifting the blockade following the flotilla incident at sea, the movement's leaders in Syria and the Gaza Strip are now convinced that they are marching in the right direction.

The flotilla incident came at a time when Hamas appeared to be losing its popularity among Palestinians, largely due to the deteriorating economic situation in the Gaza Strip. It also came at a time when even some of Hamas's supporters were beginning to criticize the movement, especially over its decision to demolish scores of "illegal" houses in the southern Gaza Strip and the execution of criminals and "collaborators" with Israel.

It is one thing to help the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, but it is another thing to help Hamas. Those who wish to deliver aid to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip can always find better and safer ways to do so - either through Israel or Egypt. But those who only seek confrontation with Israel in the sea are only emboldening Hamas and helping it tighten its grip on the people of Gaza Strip.


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## Solomon2

Kuwaiti Journalist: The Flotilla Was Violent; Israel Has a Right to Defend Itself

_In a June 3, 2010 article in the daily Al-Watan, Kuwaiti journalist 'Abdallah Al-Hadlaq supported Israel's decision to stop the Gaza flotilla, saying that the outcome of the Israeli navy's operation was "in direct proportion to the violence" of the flotilla activists, and that the flotilla organizers are known to have ties with global and regional terror organizations.

The following are excerpts:[1] _

"The Weapons had Clearly been Prepared in Advance... and the Soldiers had No Nhoice but to Respond"

"The Israeli navy gave repeated warnings to the ships [of the flotilla], which tried to break the blockade on the terroristic Hamas movement in Gaza, and also invited them to enter the Ashdod port and unload their cargo of 'aid' supplies, so it could be thoroughly examined by the security [forces] before being delivered by land to the Gaza Strip. When the flotilla failed to heed these warnings and requests, the Israeli navy had no choice but to take over the ships. [In doing so], the IDF troops encountered violent [opposition] that had been planned in advance: the flotilla participants assaulted them with firearms, metal pipes, knives and clubs, and grabbed the rifle of one of the soldiers. The weapons had clearly been prepared in advance... and the soldiers had no choice but to respond, including with live fire.

"The Israeli navy operation was conducted according to orders and instructions of the highest political echelons, [and aimed at] stopping the ships and keeping them from breaching the naval blockade and reaching Gaza. The warning message sent by the Israeli navy [to the Mavi Marmara] was as follows: 'To the captain of the [Mavi] Marmara: You are approaching an area of hostilities, which is under a naval blockade. The Gaza coastal area and Gaza Harbor are closed to maritime traffic. We invite you to enter the Ashdod port, from whence the aid supplies will be delivered through the formal land crossing [to Gaza], after which you can return to your home ports."[2] It should be noted that, according to the 1993 Oslo Accords, Israel retains control of a 40-kilometer strip of water off the Gaza coast."

"The [Flotilla] Organizers are Supporters of Movements and Organizations such as [Global] Jihad, Hamas, Hizbullah and Al-Qaeda"

"The flotilla, which was supported by the terroristic Hamas movement and tried to breach the blockade on this movement in Gaza, was a preplanned provocation against Israel. The grave outcome [of the takeover] was in direct proportion to the violence [employed by the flotilla activists] as they tried [to breach the blockade]. The [flotilla] organizers are supporters of movements and organizations such as [global] Jihad, Hamas, Hizbullah and Al-Qaeda, and have a black record in terms of smuggling arms and [perpetrating] terror operations. And indeed, the Israeli forces discovered on the ships weapons and ammunition that had been prepared in advance.

"The naval blockade on the Hamas movement in Gaza is legal in light of this movement's actions in the Strip. Had Israel allowed the flotilla  which was not legal  to reach the Hamas movement, it would have opened a route for smuggling weapons and terrorists into the Gaza Strip. No sovereign country would allow its citizens or its sovereignty to be harmed. Moreover, the attempt to force a path to Gaza by sea does not [really] benefit the people of Gaza, since the land crossings are sufficient for [the purpose of] supplying their needs. International aid organizations provide Gaza with all the necessary food, clothing and medical [supplies]. Over 15,000 tons of basic aid supplies enter the Strip every week. Construction materials enter it under the supervision of international organizations, in order to prevent the terroristic Hamas movement from commandeering them and using them for building military fortifications. The land crossings are the most efficient way to deliver supplies to Gaza, and the flotilla organizers know this perfectly well. They also know that since December 2008, their ships are not allowed to approach [the Gaza coast].

"The protests and demonstrations that broke out in various capitals are without meaning or value, as are the emergency summits [convened by] the Arab League, the E.U. and the U.N. The wave of protests will not change a thing, but a full and immediate investigation of the events will reveal all the details of what really happened... and [then] everyone will know the truth about the Hamas movement..."
Endnotes:

[1] Al-Watan (Kuwait), June 3, 2010. It should be noted that, at a June 4, 2010 rally, Hizbullah secretary-general Hassan Nasrallah said that some papers in the Gulf had published papers supporting the IDF raid on the flotilla, but their authors were a minority that would be taken care of by people of honor. Al-Safir (Lebanon), June 5, 2010. 

[2] The full message of the Israeli navy was as follows: "You are approaching an area of hostilities, which is under a naval blockade. Gaza coastal area and Gaza Harbor are closed to maritime traffic. The Israeli government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in Gaza Strip and invites you to enter Ashdod port. Delivery of supplies will be in accordance with the authorities' regulations and through the formal land crossing to Gaza and under your observation, after which you can return to your home ports." The reply was: "Negative, negative. Our destination is Gaza."


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## Wounded Healer

Solomon2 said:


> Do you really want Turkey to travel the road to becoming another Pakistan, rent from within and striking mercilessly without?



What is wrong with you Solomon?

This thread is not about Pakistan, but still you keep on giving our example just trying to prove your worthless point. 

Why are you so Pakistan-centric? Do other Jews think like you as well? Are you that much threatened by us that you have launched an online campaign just to malign Pakistan? Why, when this thread is about Israel's attack on an aid Flotilla, do you keep bringing Pakistan into it?

You are beginning to show your true colors Mr.Solomon2. I thought you were smarter than that.


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## Solomon2

Wounded Healer said:


> What is wrong with you Solomon? This thread is not about Pakistan...Why, when this thread is about Israel's attack on an aid Flotilla, do you keep bringing Pakistan into it?


It isn't? The Israelis acted according to the law and with both justice and mercy when they were illegally attacked by Islamic militants. Pakistanis, among others, have twisted that backwards. That's a kind of illness, isn't it? So that makes this thread about Pakistan, too.



> but still you keep on giving our example just trying to prove your worthless point.


If it was worthless why don't you follow Admiral's advice and ignore me rather than attempt to argue my points?



> Are you that much threatened by us that you have launched an online campaign just to malign Pakistan?


"Malign" or enlighten?



> You are beginning to show your true colors Mr.Solomon2.


What "colors" did I ever hide? I have ALWAYS described myself as a Zionist!


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## Thomas

Anyone heard if Iran is still planning to send ships since this article was published on the 8th?


*Iran prepares to confront Israel with aid flotilla
By Catrina Stewart in Jerusalem
Tuesday, 8 June 2010*
Iran prepares to confront Israel with aid flotilla - Middle East, World - The Independent


The iranian red crescent is planning to send humanitarian aid by sea to Gaza in a brazen challenge to Israel's sea blockade of the coastal enclave. The attempt to confront Israel's naval defences could escalate tensions between Israel and Iran, its greatest foe, and trigger a rerun of the bungled raid on a Turkish vessel bound for Gaza last week that left nine activists dead.

The move came as Israel bowed to international pressure to conduct an investigation into the botched flotilla operation. The Israeli Defence Minister, Ehud Barak, said yesterday that Israel would conduct an internal inquiry and examine ways of easing the blockade in Gaza, a step short of the United Nations' demand for an international probe.

"We intend to achieve an investigation of the events," Mr Barak said, adding that the inquiry would also examine the legality of the Gaza blockade. "We will draw lessons at the political level, [and] in the security establishment." 

Earlier, US Vice President Joe Biden held talks with the Egyptian President, Hosni Mubarak, on new ways to approach the humanitarian and economic situation in Gaza amid signs that Washington's support for the blockade may be wearing thin. An unnamed Egyptian security official said that the blockade had been a failure and that Egypt would keep open "indefinitely" its border crossing with Gaza. The Egyptian crossing is open only to students, medical patients and foreign passport holders.

The Iranian Red Crescent, which is backed by the Islamic regime, said on its website that it had been inundated with requests from volunteers to join its three-ship convoy to Gaza, and so has decided to extend the deadline by another two weeks. It could set sail later this month.

Israel, which has agitated for a pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities, denounced the plans as "hardcore provocation" and "a threat made before deep thinking".

"If they actually send ships, it would mean they're looking for a confrontation," said Yigal Palmor, a foreign ministry spokesman. He did not indicate how Israel would respond, but officials have insisted that they will not allow any ships to break the blockade.

Israel has justified its land and sea blockade on the grounds that it stops the flow of weapons to the Islamist group Hamas, which governs Gaza. Critics say that the blockade has strengthened Hamas and caused a humanitarian crisis.

It remains unclear how Iran would move aid ships into the Mediterranean without the help of neighbouring countries. The most direct route is through the Suez Canal, which is governed by an international treaty, but Egypt, which has supported Israel's blockade of Gaza, would be likely to stop it.

At the weekend, Iran reportedly suggested that it might send the Iranian Republican Guard to protect future convoys, a move that would be viewed by Israel as a direct challenge to its authority.

The International Federation of the Red Cross, which represents the Iranian Red Crescent abroad, said that it did not have any information on the shipments and could not comment.

Israel drew global condemnation when it launched a bloody assault last Monday on a Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, which was part of a six-ship humanitarian convoy attempting to break the Gaza blockade. Israel claimed that its soldiers came under premeditated attack from hardcore activists aboard the ship. Several passengers have alleged that the shooting began before Israeli soldiers landed on deck.

Although the mission, organised by the Free Gaza Movement, was unsuccessful, it drew international attention to the humanitarian conditions of Palestinians in Gaza, who have lived under siege since Hamas seized power in 2007.

Meir Javedanfar, an expert on Iran, said that Tehran was seeking to steal back the limelight from Turkey. "If anything, the Iranians are going to damage the credibility of the Free Gaza Movement," he said. The risk is that Israel would attempt to stop this new convoy with force as it did on the Marmara, provoking a wider conflict.

Israeli naval commandos shot dead four Palestinian divers yesterday some 100 metres off the Gaza shoreline. Israel said the men, members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, a militant group loosely aligned with Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction, were planning an attack. One of the survivors said that the men were unarmed and had been taking part in swimming training.

'Witch-hunt' of flotilla MP

An Arab Israeli member of parliament accused colleagues of conducting a "witch-hunt" before a panel voted to strip her of parliamentary privileges for taking part in the flotilla aimed at breaching Israel's sea blockade of Gaza.

The Knesset's House Committee voted seven to one in favour of stripping Haneen Zuabi, a member of the opposition Balad party, of parliamentary privileges including the right to a diplomatic passport and legal financial support.

The move, which must be approved by the Knesset, is likely to erode further already fragile relations with Israel's Arab community who took Israeli citizenship
in 1948. Right-wing politicians have used the flotilla incident to renew their attack on Arab politicians perceived as disloyal to the Jewish State.

Ms Zuabi, 41, joined hundreds of protesters aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of six vessels loaded with humanitarian aid that tried to breach the Israeli-led blockade of Gaza last week. In a botched assault of the ship, Israeli commandos killed nine of the activists and drew global condemnation.

Ms Zuabi's participation in the protest drew intense anger in Israel. She was pushed, poked and jostled by colleagues in the Knesset last week and a Facebook page calling for her execution soon attracted thousands of followers. Interior Minister Eli Yishai has called on the Attorney General to strip Ms Zuabi of her Israeli citizenship.

She said members of her left-wing party, who stand up for Arab-Israeli rights, had been victims of a witch-hunt. She boycotted yesterday's parliamentary discussion.

"The decision is racist and anti-democratic," the Balad party said in a statement. The MPs "who incite against Zuabi spill her blood  they are calling on the public to harm her and following their decision, her life will be threatened."

Before the vote, Yariv Levin, a member of the right-wing Likud Party and chairman of the House Committee, said that Ms Zuabi had betrayed Israel.

"What Zuabi did crossed the line and even in a democracy there must be red lines. Whoever sails to [Islamist movement] Hamas is a supporter of terror," said Levin, Ha'aretz reported.

Catrina Stewart

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## fatman17

*Military victory, political loss* 

Saturday, June 12, 2010

Praful Bidwai

There is a stunning precedent to Israel's attack on the Freedom Flotilla which carried humanitarian aid for Gaza, which is under a three year-long blockade. 

In 1947, the ship Exodus 1947, carrying 4,500 Holocaust survivors, left France for Palestine, then under Britain's "mandate" and also under a blockade. Britain stormed the ship on the high seas, killing three persons and injured scores. The passengers were removed, humiliated and deported to Germany. 

International outrage over the incident forced Britain to give up its "mandate". The incident also spurred the creation of Israel. The Exodus was called "The Ship That Launched a Nation". 

In attacking the Mavi Marmara in the Freedom flotilla, Israel committed a condemnable act of illegal brigandage and suffered a loss of global legitimacy. The incident, in which nine people were killed, could prove a tipping point in Israel's occupation of Palestine -- if international opinion is powerfully mobilised.

The Israeli military wove a web of lies about the flotilla, alleging the presence of Al Qaeda in the ship. These stories didn't sell. But Israel continues to assert that it exercised the "right of self-defence". There can be no such right for heavily armed commandos attacking unarmed civilians in international waters. 

The episode highlights the Israeli government's criminal character and turns the limelight on the blockade of Gaza. Going by the strong reactions by many Western powers, the episode will further isolate Israel. 

Israel's behaviour, though shocking, was in line with its past conduct, including its increasingly inhuman occupation of Palestine and its propensity to deal with threats, real or imaginary, with military force -- witness the 1981 attack on an Iraqi nuclear reactor under construction, and the 1982 and 2006 invasions of Lebanon. 

No other country has defied as many Security Council resolutions as Israel. It maligns even its mildest critics as anti-Semitic. Paranoid Israel lives with a make-believe self-perception of victimhood, and is obsessed with security defined in anti-Palestinian terms.

Israel's government today includes the far right and fascists such as foreign minister Avigdor Liebermann, who wants all Palestinians driven out of the West bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

Israel has turned Gaza into the world's largest open-air prison and systematically impoverished it. The blockade covers 2,000 items, including glass, paper, cancer medicine, toys and chocolate. The flotilla aimed to break the siege with 10,000 tonnes of relief material like wheelchairs, and pencils for schoolchildren, which are banned. 

Over four-fifths of Gaza's 1.5 million people are dependent on international food aid. Sixty-five per cent of them are children, of whom ten per cent are permanently stunted from undernourishment. In Gaza, unemployment runs at a crushing 50 per cent. 

Gaza was left devastated by Israel's invasion of December 2008, which killed 1,400 civilians, and damaged or destroyed 11,000 houses, 105 factories, 20 hospitals and clinics and 159 educational institutions. Of the 51,800 people displaced, 20,000 still remain homeless.

Karen Koning Abu Zayd, former head of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, says: "Gaza is on the threshold of [being] intentionally reduced to &#8230; abject destitution, with the knowledge, acquiescence and&#8230;encouragement of the international community."

The blockade amounts to collective punishment of civilians under foreign military occupation, prohibited under international law. As UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories Richard Falk, also an eminent US jurist, put it: such massive collective punishment "is a crime against humanity, as well as a gross violation of&#8230;Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention". 

*The UN Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict led by South African jurist Richard Goldstone, also a Jew, concluded that Gaza's blockade may amount to persecution, a crime against humanity. Israel attempted to discredit Goldstone.*

Israel evidently prefers being seen as savage, rather than weak. But this makes little difference to Israel's sworn enemies like Hamas and Hezbollah. And it deeply embarrasses Israel's allies. The cost of defending Israel is steep and rising. 

The Gaza siege has become a huge political liability and must be called off. But Israel is taking wantonly contrarian positions because it fears that if the siege ends, critical global attention on its occupation of Palestine will trigger its unravelling. 

Contrarian behaviour comes naturally to Israel. For instance, it built close relations with apartheid South Africa. The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa, a just-published book by US-based scholar Sasha Pulakow-Suransky, documents how Israel sold arms to South Africa, then under international sanctions, and more crucially, clandestinely gave it nuclear weapons. 

The nuclear deal was struck between South Africa's defence minister PW Botha and Shimon Peres, then Israel's defence minister, now its president. With Israel's help, South Africa is believed to have made at least six nuclear weapons, which it destroyed when apartheid's end became imminent. 

*Israel gets away with its consistently roguish behaviour primarily because of the United States' support.* This, in some respects, is a hangover from the Cold War when Israel was an important strategic ally. It no longer is. And the influence of the US's legendarily powerful Zionist lobby is in decline. 

Even American Jewish opinion is turning critical of Israel. About half the participants in recent anti-occupation demonstrations in the US were Jews. 

*The US would have earned much global goodwill, neutralised some jihadi opposition, and strengthened its own security had it criticised the flotilla attack.* 

Washington could yet shift its stance -- if it finds the cost of cleaning up after Israel exorbitant. The recall of their ambassadors to Israel by many countries is a pointer in that same direction. 

Israel has lost its only friend in the Islamic world, Turkey. Until recently, the two had close military relations both within and outside NATO. Turkey voted for Israel's unfortunate entry into the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development. 

Turkey is an emerging regional power, which seeks a high profile. It recently agreed with Brazil to exchange slightly enriched uranium from Iran with medium-enriched material for its "research" reactor. 

If Israel continues to ignore sane advice, it will be eventually reined the way apartheid South Africa was -- by a combination of global sanctions and external pressure, with opposition from the Palestinians and sections of domestic and global Jewish opinion. 

Falk urges: "It is time to insist on the end of the blockade of Gaza. The worldwide campaign of boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) against Israel is now a moral and political imperative..." He warns: "Unless prompt and decisive action is taken to challenge the Israeli approach to Gaza, all of us will be complicit in criminal policies that are challenging the survival of an entire beleaguered community."

*The BDS campaign is gaining momentum in many countries, but not in South Asia. India is building close relations with Israel, led by huge arms-purchase deals and counter-terrorism intelligence sharing. This is a historic blunder. India must fundamentally revise its approach to Israel. Pakistan too must cease and desist from holding clandestine talks with Israeli leaders.*

This won't happen unless South Asian political parties, civil society organisations and the intelligentsia launch a powerful BDS campaign, which demands a complete cessation of military purchases and joint ventures, a boycott of Israeli products, beginning with those made in the occupied territories, and sanctions. This campaign has become urgently imperative.



The writer, a former newspaper editor, is a researcher and peace and human-rights activist based in Delhi. Email: prafulbidwai1 @yahoo.co.in


_read and weep solomon2 - this is what you r defending - a pariah nation!!!_

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## gambit

All-Green said:


> How do we know they meant harm and started the violence?
> If they meant harm they would have been armed accordingly.
> Those who mean harm and walk into hostile territory carry big guns.


When I said these 'peace activists' meant harm, it does not mean they intended to be violent from the beginning of their trip. Am willing to grant that everyone had peaceful intention but I pointed it out before and will do again: That no one sane would assume that boarding troops will be armed with paintball guns and pistols. Five of six ships complied with Israeli boarding troops. Why did not the sixth ship? Why did they armed themselves with improvised hand weapons? Because somehow they knew that Israeli boarding troops were wielding non-lethal weapons. How could they have known? Because most likely people from the other five ships informed them of that fact.



All-Green said:


> Don't you think the people on board were at least aware of what IDF does to those who attack, even if unarmed?


I have been hit by paintballs before. It is painful but not crippling. Look at the sixth photo in this post...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/914188-post1.html

Those men were armed with improvised hand weapons and *WAITING* at the door. Their clothing alone is enough to protect them from any distracting pain from painball shots. They can easily rush any boarding troop so lightly armed before the soldier could pull his pistol. If they were so fearful of the IDF, then why were they willing to ambush boarding troops? Because they were alerted to the fact that Israeli soldiers were armed with non-lethal weapons and no longer were so fearful.



All-Green said:


> At the end of the day the people on board were killed by real Israeli bullets, that is the fact of the matter so let us not go into the whole paintball scenario!


No...You cannot dismiss the fact that those Israeli boarding troops were so lightly armed. No boarding troops from any military does. But the fact that they were so lightly armed meant that Israel intended to have as non-violent a process as possible. Show the forum a single navy in the world that armed their assault troops with paintball guns. You had better believe that every navy in the world right now is laughing at Israel for being so foolish. A pistol is the proverbial last ditch defense for self when nothing else worked or is available. So if people were killed it was because they were sufficiently threatening, not because those Israeli troops intended to kill anyone the moment they set foot aboard. Five out of six ships complied peacefully. Why not the sixth? This fact everyone avoided. Again -- Show everyone a single navy in the world that armed their assault troops with paintball guns. Can you do that?



All-Green said:


> Let us look at it from another angle if people here are now reconstructing events to justify what IDF does.
> Let me reconstruct events as well.
> Many would agree that it would be perfectly in line with what IDF has been doing in the past.
> _
> The ships belonged to a neutral nation and the shipment was inspected by the neutral nation as well.
> IDF knows that if it finds nothing contraband in all six vessels then they would have to let the flotilla pass under International law...
> So what do they come up with?
> They deliberately rough up the people on board one of the vessels to infuriate them and when they react an armed conflict takes place in which IDF manages to kill people (since they have more than paintball guns) and the entire episode is cited as an excuse to block the passage of the flotilla._


What kind of 'reconstruction' was that? This naval blockade is about three years old and ships have passed through before. This is no 'reconstruction' but merely your own fantasy story.



All-Green said:


> If Turkish warships had escorted the flotilla, Israel could not even board the flotilla.
> As per international law, the guarantee of a neutral nation with accompanying warships, renders the right of inspection by the blockading country as null and void.


Really...??? Here is what a supposedly 'neutral' party must do in order to earn immunity from boarding...

International Humanitarian Law - San Remo Manual 1994


> 120. A neutral merchant vessel is exempt from the exercise of the right of visit and search if it meets the following conditions:
> 
> *(a) it is bound for a neutral port;*
> (b) it is under the convoy of an accompanying neutral warship of the same nationality or a neutral warship of a State with which the flag State of the merchant vessel has concluded an agreement providing for such convoy;
> (c) the flag State of the neutral warship warrants that the neutral merchant vessel is not carrying contraband or otherwise engaged in activities inconsistent with its neutral status; and
> (d) the commander of the neutral warship provides, if requested by the commander of an intercepting belligerent warship or military aircraft, all information as to the character of the merchant vessel and its cargo as could otherwise be obtained by visit and search.


Look at item 'a' for starter. But in this, Turkey is hardly a 'neutral' party. Even though Turkey is not in an armed conflict against Israel, Turkey as a country is now hostile to Israel, from the citizenry to top leadership, Erdogan. Turkey is nowhere qualified as a 'neutral' party. If you want to talk 'neutrality', bring in the Swiss or Japan, for examples. Not Turkey. If all sides agreed to have a neutral party involvement, the blockading country effectively transferred that 'right to visit' to the neutral party. Even so, the blockading country still has the right to have representatives at any inspections for contraband-ed items. Whether the blockading country will send representatives or not is a matter of trust between the blockading country and this neutral party since the neutral party is the one who offered to do the inspections. Inspection representatives are not boarding troops.



All-Green said:


> Let us leave the rules of engagement which apply in case of a justified war time blockade for a moment.
> 
> Does the UN support the blockade?
> Does the world support Israel on the blockade except USA which does it mostly out of its strategic interests?
> We are discussing that Israel is running a blockade as if it is a legal and humane action, it is a most brutal act in every sense of the word and has to be condemned...
> No mention of protocol would legitimize the blockade


Spare me the hyperboles. It does not matter if the UN endorses the Gaza naval blockade or not.

Charter of the United Nations: Chapter VII: Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Agression


> Article 51
> 
> Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.


Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip years ago...

Israel's unilateral disengagement plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> ...was a proposal by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government on June 6, 2004 and enacted in August 2005, to evict all Israelis from the Gaza Strip and from four settlements in the northern West Bank.
> 
> Those Israeli citizens that refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[1] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.[2] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later.



Look at this phrase...



> Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs...


Ham-*** attacks came from Gaza. Withdrawal from a territory mean ceding control of said territory to another authority with a the expectation that said authority will exercise restraint and work towards a peaceful resolution to a conflict. So from the moment Ham-*** used Gaza to conduct military or paramilitary operations, Article 51 of the UN Charter came into effect, rendering this naval blockade eminently legal. The UN does not need to publish any statement of endorsement. Its own charter has that endorsement of self defense, of which a blockade is a mechanism of said self defense.

A blockade is usually accompanied by a belligerent occupation of a territory, either come before or after. But since Israel back in '05 willingly withdrew from Gaza, where is that belligerent occupation that everyone is talking about? A blockade is not an occupation. Egypt once had partial control of Gaza and is now maintaining a land blockade from Egyptian soil to Gaza. Why does no one accuse Egypt of 'occupying' Gaza?

Here is something for you to chew on...Gaza is not part of any country and that fact alone allows Israel to reoccupy Gaza as a belligerent power. But Israel chose not to reoccupy Gaza. So absent a belligerent occupation and a naval blockade that allows inspected cargo to pass through the blockade zone and into the territory, Israel is performing similar to a 'pacific blockade'...

Pacific blockade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> *Pacific blockade* was a term invented by Hautefeuille, the French writer on international maritime law, to describe a blockade exercised by a great power *for the purpose of bringing pressure to bear on a weaker state without actual war.*
> 
> That it is an act of violence, and therefore in the nature of war, is undeniable, seeing that it can only be employed as a measure of coercion by maritime powers able to bring into action such vastly superior forces to those the resisting state can dispose of that resistance is out of the question. In this respect it is an act of war, and any attempt to exercise it against a power strong enough to resist would be a commencement of hostilities, and at once bring into play the rights and duties affecting neutrals. On the other hand, the object and justification of a pacific blockade being to avoid war, that is general hostilities and disturbance of international traffic with the state against which the operation is carried on, rights of war cannot consistently be exercised against ships belonging to other states than those concerned. And yet, if neutrals were not to be affected by it, the coercive effect of such a blockade might be completely lost. Recent practice has been to limit interference with them to the extent barely necessary to carry out the purpose of the blockading powers.


No state stepped forward to claim to act on Gaza's behalf. No one wanted to openly wage a war against Israel. Why not? Truth is that no one care about the Palestinians and no state care because Gaza, the West Bank and the Palestinians themselves serves no strategic interests to them. The Palestinians are pawns in this religious war. If Iran is capable of wiping Israel off the map and did so, the Iranian mullahs would be as brutal in their occupation of Palestine just as they are in Iran. This 'pacific blockade' imposed by Israel is supposed to motivate internal changes in Gaza by the Gazans themselves away from the current low intensity but wearying war on both sides. Just as no state dared to step forward to challenge Israel in overt warfare, no state therefore is capable of even issuing a credible threat to compel Israel to impose this 'pacific blockade' either and Israel can impose an even harsher blockade than the current one, a blockade that is appropriate to a war of conquest. So the fact that this 'pacific blockade' exist and for years is an indication that Israel is willing to work with 'the international community' provided that this 'community' put the same public pressure on Ham-*** to stop using Gaza as a war staging ground.



All-Green said:


> The UN office for coordination of humanitarian affairs has state in May 2010 that formal economy has collapsed in Gaza.
> What will this lead to?
> Peace or violence?
> Will this push the common man towards vengeance or silent acceptance of his fate?
> 
> Gaza is situated on the coast and has access to international waters.
> Gaza has a significant fishing industry which has also suffered a lot.
> 
> Regardless of any justification, the blockade of Gaza is only making matters worse!


You cannot, in the interests of intellectual honesty, so casually dismissed justifications. Yes...Any act of war, and a blockade is an act of war, will produce misery. But then why not the same argument be applied against Ham-***? Are you afraid of appearing impartial? Again...Israel withdrew from Gaza in '05. What prompted this blockade? Just for the hell of it?

Israel Continues to Transfer Humanitarian Aid to Gaza


> A flotilla of nine vessels organized by pro-Palestinian activists is currently en route to Gaza carrying various goods. However, *the total amount of supplies transported by the flotilla, 10,000 tons, is less than the weekly average amount of goods transferred by Israel into Gaza.*


Got that? This 'humanitarian aid' by sea is only a small fraction of what passed through by land. The goal of this 'aid' fleet was never to deliver any significant amount of aid but to harass Israel behind the shield of civilian immunity in a conflict zone. You have a problem with the blockade? One alternative is to allow Ham-*** access to weapons to continue the war and this alternative would be unacceptable to Israel. Acceptable to you I presume? Another is for Israel to impose a harsher blockade and reenter Gaza as a belligerent occupation power to take the war to Ham-*** itself. Another would be for the 'international community' to have a credible enforcement presence in Gaza to assure the Israelis of their border security concerns and eventually there would no be no blockade at all. The keyword here is 'enforcement' and unfortunately for the Jews this self appointed and self annointed group of 'international community' would sooner be filled with Ham-*** fighters who would waste no time donning the righteous robe of 'peace activist' and proceed to do Iran's work before they get around to improving Gaza..

Economic hardship is not the same as economic deprivation or destruction. Gaza is suffering economic hardship that is the result of this blockade. The alternative is worse. When Israel withdrew in '05, it was with the expectation that Gazans would be a peaceful autonomous territory that while may not be a state, Gaza can still be accorded respects due a state. Ham-*** destroyed that possibility.

Increased humanitarian aid to Gaza after IDF operation Jan 2009


> At the Cabinet meeting of 22 March 2009, the Government of Israel instructed the bodies dealing with the matter to enable the entry - without restriction - of foodstuffs to the residents of Gaza from all relevant sources, after it has been verified that they are indeed foodstuffs, and this in the framework of the humanitarian efforts. The Government directed that the foregoing be scrupulously implemented.
> 
> Essential food products including meat, chicken and fish, grains and legumes, fresh vegetables, dairy products, oil, flour, salt and sugar, in addition to animal feed, hygiene products, clothing, medicines and medical supplies are among the goods that are regularly delivered to Gaza.
> 
> Note: Gas for domestic use (cooking and heating) is supplied according to Palestinian demand and is not subject to any limitation by Israel. After the fuel depot at Nahal Oz was repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists from the Gaza Strip, it was forced to limit its operations. The Kerem Shalom crossing has since been adapted to the transfer of fuel. In addition, a new gas line with double the capacity to transfer gas was built.


It is presented elsewhere on this forum other sources that Gaza is hardly deprived as your hyperboles would like us to believe.

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## sraja

*Letter to the People of Turkey*

By Dr. Arash Irandoost


Ever since you decided to trade in the Secularism of Ataturk for the Islamism of Erdogan, you also seem to have decided to forego your willingness to coexist with non-Muslims on a peaceful basis. These days all we ever seem to get from you, is video clips of your leader, Prime Minister Erdogan, behaving erradically and barking like a dog that its owner carelessly let off the leash. And if you don't know that Erdogan's master lives in Riyadh, then you don't know very much of what goes on in your own country.

But your affairs are your own. If you want to let a fanatic in a cheap suit destroy Turkish nationalism in the name of Islam, that's your business. But when he gets into business with terrorist organizations that attack, rape and murder our mothers and sisters (Iranian pro democracy women demonstrators), then it becomes our business. And when a country that persecutes its Kurdish, Assyrian and Armenian citizens, treat Iranian refugees like 3rd class citizens and hands them over to IRI thugs at every opportunity, and works tirelessly to appease a criminal regime, she must remember that we will not forget her erroneous ways.

You say you want an international investigation into the flotilla raid? Sure. Right after you allow an international investigation into that minor matter of Armenian genocide that you've been ducking for quite a while. As the new "standard bearer" in fighting for human rights, I'm sure you will agree that it's only fair that Turkey should undergo the same scrutiny it demands for other countries.

And then we can move on to the more than 10,000 political prisoners in your jails. A number that at times has topped 100,000. An independent investigation could also begin by looking into the torture and murder of political activists such as Engin Ceber. They could meet with representatives of TAYAD, the organization representing the families of prisoners. And they would no doubt be fascinated by the more than 1500 children in your prisoners who are there on "terrorism" charges. Like that 12 year old you arrested in 2008 for singing a Kurdish folk song. So by all means wrap yourselves in the banner of "Human Rights" and it will surely turn it into a noose and strangle you with it.

In Israel, Arabs are a legally recognized minority. Arabic is taught in schools and used as a legally recognized language. Meanwhile Kurdish identity is all but banned in Turkey and Iranian heritage and nationalism is under attack by the Islamist invaders. Kurdish names, folk songs and even the Kurdish language itself has been repressed.
Your regime has actually prosecuted and removed officials for simply incorporating a Kurdish phrase into a greeting. You screech self-righteously about the "Palestinian children"-- perhaps we should talk about the hundreds of Kurdish children arrested for throwing stones at protests. Arrested and charged with terrorism. Just more of the thousands of political prisoners of oppressed minorities in your prisons.

And perhaps next time your dog Erdogan gets up to bark up about human rights and gets through lecturing us on the use of force against Islamic terrorists, shall we discuss how many times you used jets to bomb Kurdish rebels who were lightly armed at best. Including in 2008 when you invaded sovereign Iraqi soil in order to continue your genocide of the Kurdish people in cooperation with criminal mullahs of Iran.

You talk about stolen land, when your entire country is stolen land, from Cyprus to Istanbul. Your regime is a racist illegitimate entity based on the oppression of the Kurds, the Armenians, the Assyrians, Iranians, and numerous others.
You went directly from being Imperialists to Fascists to Islamists, a truly dubious achievement for any nation. Your history is filled with slavery, ethnic cleansing, genocide and invasion. And that's just in the last century alone. If you had any sanity or shame, you would dig a hole, crawl into it, and hope that no one mentions words like "Minority Rights" or "Territorial Legitimacy" in your presence, instead of trying to use them as a club against Iranians and Israelis (Two nations whose national history predates yours by thousands of years).

But let us get back to your precious Islamist flotilla, decorated with Turkish flags that used to be more than just red versions of the Saudi flag. That ship you filled up with Muslim Brotherhood members and Islamist radicals bound for Gaza. Over in your wonderful nation of boundless freedom, reporters have been put on trial for even interviewing leaders of terrorist groups.

You sentenced the head of a Kurdish party to six months in prison for calling the head of the PKK, Mr. Ocalan, instead of just Ocalan. He joins the more than 800 Kurdish politicians you imprisoned in the last year alone. And after all that you actually have the nerve to pretend to be "outraged" when Israel intercepts your flotilla full of political terrorists?

You blockaded Armenia for Sixteen Years.

But of course we know how strongly you feel about blockades. Like the time you blockaded Armenia for Sixteen Years. Very well then. If you insist on sending vessels flying the Turkish flag to aid Hamas, perhaps Israel should begin sending tanks flying the Israeli flag to aid the PKK. And when a new democratic Iran is established, we surely will cut the flow of gas and oil to your arid, natural resource starved and useless land.

We're not big fans of the PKK, but since you've decided to friend Hamas and IRI murderers, then what's good for the turkey, just might be good for the gander. Or perhaps for every boat flying the Turkish flag that is sent to Gaza, Israel should donate a million to the Iranian pro democracy movement and PKK. I wonder how along IRI could last with direct financial help form Israel.

And then there's the Republic of Cyprus. They might benefit from significantly upgraded air defenses. While the US insists on equalizing weapons sales to Turkey and Greece, Israel just might have something tastier to offer to one side. And the citizens of the Republic of Cyprus might actually be able to sleep peacefully in their beds, instead of being intimidated by savages showing off their F-16's over their heads.

Oh I know, what you're going to say. This means war. But you might want to reconsider. And what exactly was the last war you won single-handedly? And no, bombing starving Kurdish rebels from the air, or occupying Cyprus doesn't count. And how long could you fight that war, before a domestic Kurdish insurgency overthrows your little empire.

If that doesn't happen, you might want to think about the big Russian bear at your back. The bear has been eyeing you for a long time now. And with your military engaged in a disastrous war for the Great Caliphate, your borders would be temptingly open. And who exactly would bail you out then?

Oh I know you've made many great news friends, such as Ahmadinejad and that fat king in the Arabian Desert, who tells your Erdogan when to jump and how high., but if you think mullahs care about their Sunni brethren, you've got another surprise coming. Meanwhile old Abdullah in the desert can't even protect himself without the US Marines.
And if you think Obama would send them in to save your *****, you've got another thing coming. I'm sure if there were Russian tanks headed to Ankara, he'd make a vocal statement about it. And Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov would pretend not to laugh while hanging up the phone.

There is of course the European Union. Last time Russia pulled that trick, it was Britain that bailed you out in the Crimean War. But these days Her M(N)ajesty's Empire isn't quite in the same shape it used to be. Sure Cameron, Clegg and Harman will lick Erdogan's feet. But none of them want to be the next Tony Blair either.

Germany doesn't like you very much anymore. Perhaps that time when it got enmeshed in WW1 to protect your Ottoman Empire may have put them off. Or your internal campaign of subversion exploiting Germany's horde of Turkish laborers. What are you left with then? France, Italy or perhaps Austria will forget that whole pesky Gates of Vienna thing and this time ride to your rescue.

No, when Russian commandos are ripping off your wife's head scarf-- there will be no one left to save you. Not your newfound allies, or Erdogan who will take the first plane to Riyadh, with as much of the 18 billion in gold and cash he stole from Iran as his sweaty hands can shove into the pockets of his cheap suit. And just think of it, as the Hagia Sophia church that you turned into a mosque, will become a church again.

Istanbul will once again be Constantinople, which means a certain catchy 20's song will require a rewrite. Of course it may not happen exactly that way. But something close to it might happen. Erdogan's plan to change Turkey into a Muslim country will not succeed if alert pro democracy and secular Turks who have seen the human rights violation under Islam in Iran, have something to say in the next elections.

So when that day of reckoning comes, you will find that you have made enemies of former allies such as pro democracy Iranians, Israel and the US-- and that the new allies Erdogan has found for you in Islamic Republic and Syria would prefer a Russian controlled Turkey, that has no chance of ever reverting to a Kemalist government. And Erdogan's godfather in Saudi Arabia commands oil money, not troops. And while he might be willing to sink Turkey for the sake of Islam, perhaps there are Turks who value their nation, more than Islamism. If not, you can look forward to Erdogan "reforming" your country, until it has the military might of Pakistan, the literacy level of Saudi Arabia and the poverty rate of Egypt and rapist reputation of Irans mullahs. It is of course your choice.

People have the right to choose their destiny, for good or ill. And if you find that this letter is filled with contempt, it is a contempt fully merited by a regime that seeks to cloak its shameful betrayal of a former allies in the guise of human rights, when it brutally suppresses the rights of its own minorities. You may wish to go on dancing to the tune being played by Erdogan, to sheet music composed in Riyadh and Tehran. It is a very good tune. Filled with hate, violence and religious fanaticism. That also is your choice. But know that whatever you have was bought and paid by your ancestors who understood that Turkey would either modernize out of the gutter of Islam, or it would be washed away by the colonial tide. Your power does not come from Islam, it comes from the bread crusts of civilization that fall from the table of Europe and ineptitude of the corrupt mullahs of Iran. Abandon them for the red hued madness of the Jihad, and you will not rule over an empire, but over a wasteland. If you doubt that, look to the south and to the east. Look to the desert. You came from there once. And if you throw away your once secular and democratic country for the fanatical madness of Islam-- you will return there again.

Sincerely,

Your Secular Pro Democracy Iranian Former Friend

Dr. Arash Irandoost is a pro-democracy activist who advocates regime change in Iran. He denounces those who have corrupted the religion of Islam, make war with all free nations and intend to dominate the world with their theocracy. Dr. Irandoost's work has been published in numerous magazines around the world, as well as in hundreds of Internet magazines, websites and blogs. He is also a researcher and literary translator. He blogs at hakemiat-e-mardom. blogspot. com/

Letter to the People of Turkey | EuropeNews

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

As I understand it more then 10,000 missles have been fired into Israel and a state of war exists between the Palestinians and Israel. Also as I understand supplies can be shipped into Gaza thru Egypt. Israeli officials reiterate that there is no shortage of humanitarian aid in Gaza, but say that 10,000 tons of aid carried by ships will be transferred to Gaza after inspection.

As I see it the only purpose of this Aid Shipments is to confront Israel or eventually to ship war supplies to Gaza. If some one was shooting rockets at me or my family I would be doing the same things the Jews are doing and a lot more..

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## Junaid375

oh please....
do you listen to what United Nations said about GAZA blockade in September 2009 ?

*UN Fact Finding Mission finds strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Gaza conflict; calls for end to impunity*

go through http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/9B63490FFCBE44E5C1257632004EA67B?opendocument 

or read this (published in March 2010)
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/gaza_agriculture_25_05_2010_press_release_english.pdf

what Israel reiterates are all but lies..


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## FreekiN

*ISRAEL ATTACKED AND KILLED FIRST*

Israeli Attack on the Mavi Marmara, May 31st 2010 // 15 min. on Vimeo

Gaza flotilla attack: activist releases new footage | World news | guardian.co.uk

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## EjazR

@sraja and captain american
Your posts are offtopic, if you want to discuss these stuff, create a new thread. This is about the gaza flotilla and related news.


EXCLUSIVE: New Video Smuggled Out from Mavi Marmara of Israel's Deadly Assault on Gaza Aid Flotilla

Interview with Lara Lee, the person who shot the footage.


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## EjazR

Hamid Mir interviews a Jewish religious scholar who was on the flotilla alongwith Rabbis from around the world.

Watch from 19:00 onwards
*View topic - Captial Talk - 7th June 2010 - Pak Politics | Talk Shows | Forum | Discussion | News | Columns &bull;*


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## All-Green

gambit said:


> When I said these 'peace activists' meant harm, it does not mean they intended to be violent from the beginning of their trip. Am willing to grant that everyone had peaceful intention but I pointed it out before and will do again: That no one sane would assume that boarding troops will be armed with paintball guns and pistols. Five of six ships complied with Israeli boarding troops. Why did not the sixth ship? Why did they armed themselves with improvised hand weapons? Because somehow they knew that Israeli boarding troops were wielding non-lethal weapons. How could they have known? Because most likely people from the other five ships informed them of that fact.
> 
> 
> I have been hit by paintballs before. It is painful but not crippling. Look at the sixth photo in this post...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/914188-post1.html
> 
> Those men were armed with improvised hand weapons and *WAITING* at the door. Their clothing alone is enough to protect them from any distracting pain from painball shots. They can easily rush any boarding troop so lightly armed before the soldier could pull his pistol. If they were so fearful of the IDF, then why were they willing to ambush boarding troops? Because they were alerted to the fact that Israeli soldiers were armed with non-lethal weapons and no longer were so fearful.
> 
> 
> No...You cannot dismiss the fact that those Israeli boarding troops were so lightly armed. No boarding troops from any military does. But the fact that they were so lightly armed meant that Israel intended to have as non-violent a process as possible. Show the forum a single navy in the world that armed their assault troops with paintball guns. You had better believe that every navy in the world right now is laughing at Israel for being so foolish. A pistol is the proverbial last ditch defense for self when nothing else worked or is available. So if people were killed it was because they were sufficiently threatening, not because those Israeli troops intended to kill anyone the moment they set foot aboard. Five out of six ships complied peacefully. Why not the sixth? This fact everyone avoided. Again -- Show everyone a single navy in the world that armed their assault troops with paintball guns. Can you do that?
> 
> 
> What kind of 'reconstruction' was that? This naval blockade is about three years old and ships have passed through before. This is no 'reconstruction' but merely your own fantasy story.
> 
> 
> Really...??? Here is what a supposedly 'neutral' party must do in order to earn immunity from boarding...
> 
> International Humanitarian Law - San Remo Manual 1994
> 
> Look at item 'a' for starter. But in this, Turkey is hardly a 'neutral' party. Even though Turkey is not in an armed conflict against Israel, Turkey as a country is now hostile to Israel, from the citizenry to top leadership, Erdogan. Turkey is nowhere qualified as a 'neutral' party. If you want to talk 'neutrality', bring in the Swiss or Japan, for examples. Not Turkey. If all sides agreed to have a neutral party involvement, the blockading country effectively transferred that 'right to visit' to the neutral party. Even so, the blockading country still has the right to have representatives at any inspections for contraband-ed items. Whether the blockading country will send representatives or not is a matter of trust between the blockading country and this neutral party since the neutral party is the one who offered to do the inspections. Inspection representatives are not boarding troops.
> 
> 
> Spare me the hyperboles. It does not matter if the UN endorses the Gaza naval blockade or not.
> 
> Charter of the United Nations: Chapter VII: Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Agression
> 
> Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip years ago...
> 
> Israel's unilateral disengagement plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Look at this phrase...
> 
> 
> Ham-*** attacks came from Gaza. Withdrawal from a territory mean ceding control of said territory to another authority with a the expectation that said authority will exercise restraint and work towards a peaceful resolution to a conflict. So from the moment Ham-*** used Gaza to conduct military or paramilitary operations, Article 51 of the UN Charter came into effect, rendering this naval blockade eminently legal. The UN does not need to publish any statement of endorsement. Its own charter has that endorsement of self defense, of which a blockade is a mechanism of said self defense.
> 
> A blockade is usually accompanied by a belligerent occupation of a territory, either come before or after. But since Israel back in '05 willingly withdrew from Gaza, where is that belligerent occupation that everyone is talking about? A blockade is not an occupation. Egypt once had partial control of Gaza and is now maintaining a land blockade from Egyptian soil to Gaza. Why does no one accuse Egypt of 'occupying' Gaza?
> 
> Here is something for you to chew on...Gaza is not part of any country and that fact alone allows Israel to reoccupy Gaza as a belligerent power. But Israel chose not to reoccupy Gaza. So absent a belligerent occupation and a naval blockade that allows inspected cargo to pass through the blockade zone and into the territory, Israel is performing similar to a 'pacific blockade'...
> 
> Pacific blockade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> No state stepped forward to claim to act on Gaza's behalf. No one wanted to openly wage a war against Israel. Why not? Truth is that no one care about the Palestinians and no state care because Gaza, the West Bank and the Palestinians themselves serves no strategic interests to them. The Palestinians are pawns in this religious war. If Iran is capable of wiping Israel off the map and did so, the Iranian mullahs would be as brutal in their occupation of Palestine just as they are in Iran. This 'pacific blockade' imposed by Israel is supposed to motivate internal changes in Gaza by the Gazans themselves away from the current low intensity but wearying war on both sides. Just as no state dared to step forward to challenge Israel in overt warfare, no state therefore is capable of even issuing a credible threat to compel Israel to impose this 'pacific blockade' either and Israel can impose an even harsher blockade than the current one, a blockade that is appropriate to a war of conquest. So the fact that this 'pacific blockade' exist and for years is an indication that Israel is willing to work with 'the international community' provided that this 'community' put the same public pressure on Ham-*** to stop using Gaza as a war staging ground.
> 
> 
> You cannot, in the interests of intellectual honesty, so casually dismissed justifications. Yes...Any act of war, and a blockade is an act of war, will produce misery. But then why not the same argument be applied against Ham-***? Are you afraid of appearing impartial? Again...Israel withdrew from Gaza in '05. What prompted this blockade? Just for the hell of it?
> 
> Israel Continues to Transfer Humanitarian Aid to Gaza
> 
> Got that? This 'humanitarian aid' by sea is only a small fraction of what passed through by land. The goal of this 'aid' fleet was never to deliver any significant amount of aid but to harass Israel behind the shield of civilian immunity in a conflict zone. You have a problem with the blockade? One alternative is to allow Ham-*** access to weapons to continue the war and this alternative would be unacceptable to Israel. Acceptable to you I presume? Another is for Israel to impose a harsher blockade and reenter Gaza as a belligerent occupation power to take the war to Ham-*** itself. Another would be for the 'international community' to have a credible enforcement presence in Gaza to assure the Israelis of their border security concerns and eventually there would no be no blockade at all. The keyword here is 'enforcement' and unfortunately for the Jews this self appointed and self annointed group of 'international community' would sooner be filled with Ham-*** fighters who would waste no time donning the righteous robe of 'peace activist' and proceed to do Iran's work before they get around to improving Gaza..
> 
> Economic hardship is not the same as economic deprivation or destruction. Gaza is suffering economic hardship that is the result of this blockade. The alternative is worse. When Israel withdrew in '05, it was with the expectation that Gazans would be a peaceful autonomous territory that while may not be a state, Gaza can still be accorded respects due a state. Ham-*** destroyed that possibility.
> 
> Increased humanitarian aid to Gaza after IDF operation Jan 2009
> 
> It is presented elsewhere on this forum other sources that Gaza is hardly deprived as your hyperboles would like us to believe.



Who is neutral here?

I thought that UN represents a neutral perspective and certainly a global perspective
What does it have to say about the whole affair?

Am i to assume that when UN reports denounce Israel, it is a trivial matter?
The same UN mandate on the other hand is taken very seriously when it is used as a jumping board to sanction other countries and carry out military interventions.
Am i to assume that the UN fact finding missions and reports are nonsense?
l 
The UN says that only 1/4th of the required supply passes through the blockade and you paste a link by none other than the Israeli foreign ministry to contradict the reports by UN?
You portray that Israel is just inspecting goods, as if they let any non contraband item (food, medicine, utensils) reach Gaza no matter what the quantity.
That is not the case my friend!
Israel does not let more than a certain amount reach Gaza and this is why there is criticism from UN and ofcourse many other countries.
There is certainly a deprivation inside the Gaza strip as reported by most of the international organizations which deal with humanitarian crisis globally.

So the party which is using its military might to suppress the Palestinians and punishes them collectively is now the authentic source for passing judgment on its own actions?
The same party which has always been accused of using disproportionate force?
The same party which has been openly bulldozing Palestinian homes and annexing more and more land for itself (in defiance of UN mandate) is the sole victim here?

And i am the one who is being accused of resorting to hyperbole?

The flotilla raid highlights a humanitarian crisis which the world has so far failed to resolve.
The attempt to break the blockade and the ensuing raid has served as a warning flare to the entire world.
The bravery of these few hundred people from around the globe is certainly admirable to me and if their intent was to highlight what is happening here, then that certainly is not an evil intent.
Looking away from something cruel does not make it go away.
The world has seen it and from what i have read and heard, most of the world sees Israel in a very negative light over what it is doing.

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## EjazR

*Israel Navy reserves officers: Allow external Gaza flotilla probe*

*Officers denounce operation as 'military and diplomatic failure', slam government for placing blame on the activists.*
A group of top Israel Navy reserves officers on Sunday publicly called on Israel to allow an external probe into its commando raid of a Gaza-bound humanitarian aid flotilla last week, which left nine people dead and several more wounded.

In a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, the Navy officers denounced the commando raid as having "ended in tragedy both at the military and diplomatic levels." 

"We disagree with the widespread claims that this was the result of an intelligence rift," said the officers. "In addition, we do not accept claims that this was a 'public relations failure' and we think that the plan was doomed to failure from the beginning."

*"First and foremost, we protest the fact that responsibility for the tragic results was immediately thrust onto the organizers of the flotilla," wrote the officers. "This demonstrates contempt for the responsibility that belongs principally to the hierarchy of commanders and those who approved the mission. This shows contempt for the values of professionalism, the purity of weapons and for human lives."*

The Navy officers' letter came as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was convening his top ministers to deliberate a United Nations proposal to create a joint international committee alongside Turkey and the United States to investigate the circumstances of the deadly raid.

The cabinet was also to discuss the creation of an internal committee to look into the incident. Netanyahu earlier Sunday rejected the idea of an international panel, and reiterated that Israel had the right to conduct its own investigation.

Netanyahu discussed the proposal for a multinational panel with United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon in a telephone call on Saturday but told cabinet ministers fon Sunday that Israel was exploring other options, political sources said.

"I told [Ban] that the investigation of the facts must be carried out responsibly and objectively," Netanyahu told ministers. "We need to consider the issue carefully and level-headedly, while maintaining Israel's national interests as well as those of the Israel Defense Forces."


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## gambit

All-Green said:


> Who is neutral here?


No one. And I hope *YOU* will not put up such a pretense.



All-Green said:


> I thought that UN represents a neutral perspective and certainly a global perspective
> What does it have to say about the whole affair?


Then all 'The UN' has to do is have a credible deterrence force and enforcement mechanisms to ensure the Gaza Strip is not used as a war staging ground. Remember...Israel withdrew from Gaza in '05. Why do you refused to acknowledged this fact?



All-Green said:


> Am i to assume that when UN reports denounce Israel, it is a trivial matter?


No...But denunciations of Israel does not guarantee Israel's security.



All-Green said:


> The same UN mandate on the other hand is taken very seriously when it is used as a jumping board to sanction other countries and carry out military interventions.
> Am i to assume that the UN fact finding missions and reports are nonsense?


The UN does not its own enforcement arm for any resolutions it passed. It rely upon the *VOLUNTARY* contributions of member states. The more serious the matter, the greater the demand for member states to comply to the UN's mandates. For this issue, no one stepped forward to ensure that Gaza is not used as a war staging ground. That left Israel. All the fact findings does not create such security.



All-Green said:


> The UN says that only 1/4th of the required supply passes through the blockade and you paste a link by none other than the Israeli foreign ministry to contradict the reports by UN?
> You portray that Israel is just inspecting goods, as if they let any non contraband item (food, medicine, utensils) reach Gaza no matter what the quantity.
> That is not the case my friend!
> Israel does not let more than a certain amount reach Gaza and this is why there is criticism from UN and ofcourse many other countries.
> There is certainly a deprivation inside the Gaza strip as reported by most of the international organizations which deal with humanitarian crisis globally.


If there is a discrepancy between amount reported by one side against another, that still does not negate the fact that the blockade of Gaza is a legitimate enforcement tactic by Israel to convince the Gazans to pressure Hamas to cease its military operations. Remember...Israel withdrew from Gaza back on '05. This 'pacific blockade' is the far better option than an all out war. Now...Explain why is Israel's withdrawal from Gaza back in '05 irrelevant.



All-Green said:


> So the party which is using its military might to suppress the Palestinians and punishes them collectively is now the authentic source for passing judgment on its own actions?
> The same party which has always been accused of using disproportionate force?
> The same party which has been openly bulldozing Palestinian homes and annexing more and more land for itself (in defiance of UN mandate) is the sole victim here?


There is nothing wrong with deploying disproportionate force. That is the way of war and of law enforcement, if you had not notice. The police do not come to arrest you with only one officer. The police will come to arrest you with overwhelming force in manpower and weapons in hope that it will deter you from violence. In this case, paintball guns are far from disproportionate force.



All-Green said:


> And i am the one who is being accused of resorting to hyperbole?


Yes.



All-Green said:


> The flotilla raid highlights a humanitarian crisis which the world has so far failed to resolve.
> The attempt to break the blockade and the ensuing raid has served as a warning flare to the entire world.
> The bravery of these few hundred people from around the globe is certainly admirable to me and if their intent was to highlight what is happening here, then that certainly is not an evil intent.
> Looking away from something cruel does not make it go away.
> The world has seen it and from what i have read and heard, most of the world sees Israel in a very negative light over what it is doing.


Then all 'the world' has to do is give Israel the border security that all states deserve. Remember...Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05.


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## All-Green

gambit said:


> No one. And I hope *YOU* will not put up such a pretense.
> 
> 
> Then all 'The UN' has to do is have a credible deterrence force and enforcement mechanisms to ensure the Gaza Strip is not used as a war staging ground. Remember...Israel withdrew from Gaza in '05. Why do you refused to acknowledged this fact?
> 
> 
> No...But denunciations of Israel does not guarantee Israel's security.
> 
> 
> The UN does not its own enforcement arm for any resolutions it passed. It rely upon the *VOLUNTARY* contributions of member states. The more serious the matter, the greater the demand for member states to comply to the UN's mandates. For this issue, no one stepped forward to ensure that Gaza is not used as a war staging ground. That left Israel. All the fact findings does not create such security.
> 
> 
> If there is a discrepancy between amount reported by one side against another, that still does not negate the fact that the blockade of Gaza is a legitimate enforcement tactic by Israel to convince the Gazans to pressure Hamas to cease its military operations. Remember...Israel withdrew from Gaza back on '05. This 'pacific blockade' is the far better option than an all out war. Now...Explain why is Israel's withdrawal from Gaza back in '05 irrelevant.
> 
> 
> There is nothing wrong with deploying disproportionate force. That is the way of war and of law enforcement, if you had not notice. The police do not come to arrest you with only one officer. The police will come to arrest you with overwhelming force in manpower and weapons in hope that it will deter you from violence. In this case, paintball guns are far from disproportionate force.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> Then all 'the world' has to do is give Israel the border security that all states deserve. Remember...Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05.



I acknowledge the fact that Israeli land occupation forces vacated in 2005.
However the IDF conducted military operations using maximum force and causing great damage even after 2005.
It means that vacation of land occupation forces does not imply that IDF guns are silent, on the contrary there have been punitive attacks which have seen the use of heavy firepower.

In 2006 the Israeli response to the capture of one of their soldiers and the rocket attacks certainly did not segregate between military and civilian targets once the guns started blazing.
Israel captured and killed many Hamas operatives, even capturing the elected representatives of government who belonged to Hamas, it is not like the blockade was an option chosen in lieu of a military operation.
The military operation was carried out in full force first killing hundreds of civilians (on top of militants) and generated condemnation from all across the globe.

Whereas certainly in war the objective is to overwhelm your enemies, deliberate targeting of civilians is something Israel has done many times and has been accused of this by many organizations and not just the Palestinians or the Muslim countries.
Israel's brutality is what gives justification to Hamas, in the backdrop of all the controversy regarding how Israel came into being at the direct cost of Palestinians.

The fact is that it is simply not a case of the entire world demonizing Israel as has been portrayed by those who claim that Israel has a right to defend itself and deserves a secure border.
Palestinians too have a right to their land and homes which the world has failed to guarantee as well.
At least the world has aided Israel to the extent that it can take on the entire Arab world, leave alone the Palestinians who are nothing in comparison in terms of military.

I claim to be neutral in the aspect that so far i am willing to see an Israeli and Palestinian state co exist side by side despite the fact that the manner in which Israel was created is certainly most disturbing.
However i do admit that day by day i feel this is not possible especially since Israel has a guaranteed veto power in the security council.

The cycle of violence started at the inception of the Israeli state and all the injustices henceforth have led to this point whereby Israel has gradually been granted absolute power over the Palestinians who were originally in absolute majority in the land called Palestine.
The grudge has only gotten worse and will lead to more violence and much more deaths for the Palestinians because no one backs their cause wholeheartedly with military support.

The Palestinians dislike Israel severely, i do not think the blockade will remove the enmity and deny space to Hamas even if the Palestinians in Gaza do not love Hamas.
Israel has been far too aggressive most of the time to cause such a transition whereby the Palestinians will throw out Hamas in a civil war and at a great cost to their lives.

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## gambit

All-Green said:


> I acknowledge the fact that Israeli land occupation forces vacated in 2005.


Good...Finally some honesty...



All-Green said:


> However the IDF conducted military operations using maximum force and causing great damage even after 2005.
> It means that *vacation of land occupation forces does not imply that IDF guns are silent*, on the contrary there have been punitive attacks which have seen the use of heavy firepower.


Of course not. But it begs the question that to whom is Israel responding? The concession of a territory to an authority with no guarantee of a cessation of the armed conflict is a foolish gamble and one that Israel had to make. Not only that, the concession was also a ceasefire offer. Hamas refused to accept the ceasefire offer and Israel has no choice but to respond in kind and out of proportion. That made the naval blockade of Gaza eminently legal and any blame for the economic hardship and deprivation on the population rightfully fall upon Hamas.

I see no need to address the rest of your commentary.


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## FreekiN

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> As I understand it more then 10,000 missles have been fired into Israel and a state of war exists between the Palestinians and Israel.



10,000 missiles that have killed what? 3 people? 

In turn, airstrikes that have killed thousands?



> Also as I understand supplies can be shipped into Gaza thru Egypt.



They just unbanned 'snack foods.' Now think what is left to unban.



> Israeli officials reiterate that there is no shortage of humanitarian aid in Gaza, but say that 10,000 tons of aid carried by ships will be transferred to Gaza after inspection.



Israel has no credibility. 



> As I see it the only purpose of this Aid Shipments is to confront Israel or eventually to ship war supplies to Gaza. If some one was shooting rockets at me or my family I would be doing the same things the Jews are doing and a lot more..



They announced months before that they were to challenge the Israeli Blockaid on Gaza, accompanied by widely renowned Humanitarians, retired soldiers, Holocaust Survivors, and even some Nobel Peace prize winners.

If someone was to tear down my house in order to expand their 'homeland', i'd fire a rocket into their face.

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## GUNNER

*Murders on the Mediterranean*

*By Syed Talat Hussain *

June 13, 2010

The writer is executive director news and current affairs at Aaj TV (syed.talat@tribune.com.pk).

The website democracynow.org gives a vivid, and by far the most authentic, video account of Israels attack on the main ship of the freedom flotilla carrying over 600 passengers including an eight-month-old baby.

The video is one of the many that are likely to come out in the weeks ahead captured by those who witnessed recent historys most audacious insult to efforts to highlight the plight of 1.5 million Palestinians stranded in the Gaza Strip. It shows bullets being fired from the boats carrying Israeli commandos as they make a vain attempt to climb up the Mavi Marmara. It depicts passengers, including foreigners and an Arab member of Knesset, (the Israeli parliament), wade through staircases and corridors filled with the injured. As doctors make desperate efforts to revive those shot in the head or in the chest from close range, blood-splattered walls furnish cold testimony to the methods the Israelis used to take control of the ship: anyone who stood in the way to taking over the control room  which they eventually did in a little over an hour  had to be eliminated.

The video is filmed by a journalist who left banking for the electronic media and presently works in New York. For a brief period when we were prison mates he told me about the effort he had to make to preserve the video: at least a one hour video of the attack was transferred on to a chip measuring half an inch, safely tucked in a special slot in his underwear. He took a grave risk: the Israelis would have strung him upside down if they had found what he was up to. They had strip-searched all of us to ensure that we did not carry any pictures on us. He told me how he wanted to come on this journey because that was good for his budding career but as he saw the devastation caused by Israeli actions, his motive changed from a mere professional concern to angry defiance against Israeli impunity.

Others were not so lucky with their efforts to slip out of the ship, vital evidence of Israelis criminal conduct on international waters. Among the injured there were two Indonesians, both camera men, one shot near the collar bone and another in the arm he was holding the camera with. I had spent nearly 10 days with them starting from our journey in Istanbul. The Malaysians and the Indonesian combined had a large contingent, over a dozen, which included a female reporter as well. Deeply religious and belonging to the Tablighee side of Islam, some of them, including the one who got shot in the arm, would spend long hours praying and reciting the Quran. Not exactly active in his pursuit of news on the ship, he was standing in the corner filming the attack as it unfolded when he was knocked out by a sniper. On the upper deck, as mayhem spread I saw two men fall to bullets  the sound of which is amply recorded in the democracynow video. I had been in these situations before. I had enough experience to know that these were all sniper shots. No random bullet pierces the foreheads center or rips through the heart. If there was any doubt about how these passengers had been killed it was removed when a cameraman who was leaning against me as we both attempted to record the events fell back on me with a bullet wound in his arm. Israelis knew who they had to kill to keep the lid on their beastly actions: the journalists topped the list.

Fortunately, the Israeli system is not foolproof and there is enough evidence floating around to pinpoint responsibility. At any rate each individual who was on the ship is an eyewitness who can blow away the pack of lies Israel, its global backers and a patently one-sided western media are churning out. For a change truth is holding the field of public opinion long misled by propaganda.

Published in the Express Tribune, June 14th, 2010.

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## All-Green

gambit said:


> Good...Finally some honesty...
> 
> 
> Of course not. But it begs the question that to whom is Israel responding? The concession of a territory to an authority with no guarantee of a cessation of the armed conflict is a foolish gamble and one that Israel had to make. Not only that, the concession was also a ceasefire offer. Hamas refused to accept the ceasefire offer and Israel has no choice but to respond in kind and out of proportion. That made the naval blockade of Gaza eminently legal and any blame for the economic hardship and deprivation on the population rightfully fall upon Hamas.
> 
> I see no need to address the rest of your commentary.



Finally?
My friend, i have been honest throughout the discourse.
No deliberate attempt on my part to hide facts.

The fact remains that might is right.
At the end of the day this is what dictates the state of affairs.
Isreal is stragically important to some countries who will go to any length to protect their interests.

The commentry i made was to bring to light the fact that amidst all the wars and conflicts, Palestinians always lost more and more.

The initial Palestinian demand was to reverse the creation of Israel which became all what it was not supposed to be as far as Palestinians were concerned, however this was moderated and eventually a huge shift occurred in which Palestinians were willing to co exist as two states with Israel.
However Israel does not offer much in negotiations and has always used force to have its way.


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## gambit

All-Green said:


> Finally?
> My friend, i have been honest throughout the discourse.
> No deliberate attempt on my part to hide facts.


Of course there were and I forced that admission. The fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza cannot be hidden for long. People will question as to why would a blockade be imposed on Gaza if Israel withdrew. At the end of day, much has been made about the legality of the blockade and its alleged 'illegality' died a quick analytical death. Next was supposedly 'disproportionate' force. But then these 'peace activists' shot themselves in the foot by posting their own videos that clearly showed assault troops wielding paintball guns, making the Israeli military the laughing stock of the militaries of the world. I would not be a betting man if I were you.


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## su-47

sraja said:


> Letter to the People of Turkey | EuropeNews



I think that article is just pathetic. Just a hate speech written with no civility or dignity. Any sane person can see that the author is just spewing hate against Turkey, not to mention throwing some baseless claims of Russia wanting to occupy Turkey. The same author calls Turkey a useless, resourceless land. Then why the hell would Russia want to occupy it? 

Besides, he seriously underestimates Turkey. He thinks Russia can just walk in. While Russia is definitely stronger, they will know that they cant wage war on Turkey without consequences. 

Really man, posting such articles will just make u lose credibility.


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## All-Green

gambit said:


> Of course there were and I forced that admission. The fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza cannot be hidden for long. People will question as to why would a blockade be imposed on Gaza if Israel withdrew.



First of all, the withdrawal of IDF land forces from Gaza in 2005 has not changed much in terms of hardship imposed upon the Gazans. 
Yet nowhere do I seem to recall that I have denied IDF withdrawal from the land on Gaza in 2005, contrary to your belief. 
Forced my admission?
Be honest here my friend, where have I said that IDF did not withdraw its infantry in 2005 from the Gazan land?




gambit said:


> At the end of day, much has been made about the legality of the blockade and its alleged 'illegality' died a quick analytical death. Next was supposedly 'disproportionate' force.



Regarding the disproportionate force, it is a fact not fiction. 
There are countless examples of this by IDF and I have pasted the excerpt of one such report by UN which investigated the events in Gaza. 
IDF claimed that there was no possibility of deliberate targeting of civilians and its target was Hamas. 
Sadly this was proven to be untrue and UN fact finding committee gave an entirely different account. 
I posted it before, highlighting some important parts and yet you seem to have ignored it because we are still arguing about the legality of Israeli actions pertaining to Gaza, despite clearly falling in line with the very definition of war crimes.
Here is the link for detailed reading, maybe it makes you understand why the legality of Israeli actions has been in question.
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/9B63490FFCBE44E5C1257632004EA67B?opendocument

Deliberately killing civilians whom the IDF troops themselves gathered at a location, deliberately targeting a hospital, etc. These are results of UN fact finding missions and not references that have no significance. 
This implicates Israel in crimes that make its operations illegal due to deliberate intent to target civilians and innocents on top of the militant heads that it collects.
This is where the legality of Israeli actions comes into question; this is where most of the world sees the blockade as an extension of the same oppression which Israel has been perpetrating in the name of self defense.

Regarding the particulars of the blockade and its legality, IDF has withdrawn from the Land but it is not like they have left Gaza alone and just resort to the blockade and inspection of goods. 
IDF has practically saved itself from bloody urban battles and yet can bombard any area at any given time by using its air assets, naval vessels and its heavy artillery, which it does without any restraint. Hamas is dealt with by using maximum force resulting in a lot of collateral so IDF has not given any respite to Gazans by reducing the military approach. 
To pretend that the blockade is a more peaceful posture is not correct.* Blockade currently serves as an additional means to target Gazans as a whole regardless of militant or civilian; it is not an alternative to the bombardment carried out by IDF*.

The fact remains that Israel has blockaded Gaza and does not let in ample provisions as per UN and other independent sources. There is a severe shortage of provisions for the use of ordinary Civilians who are all suffering as a result. 
This diet program of IDF to slim down the Gazans as a whole may seem Justified to you, to me it is an illegal act of collective punishment of innocents, a war crime against a whole people and has to be condemned.

Here is what ICRC has to say about it.
BBC News - ICRC says Israel's Gaza blockade breaks law

The ICRC, a traditionally neutral organisation, paints a bleak picture of conditions in Gaza: hospitals short of equipment, power cuts lasting hours each day, drinking water unfit for consumption.
"*The whole of Gaza's civilian population is being punished for acts for which they bear no responsibility.* *The closure therefore constitutes a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel's obligations under international humanitarian law*," the agency said in the statement.
And the ICRC blames differences between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority for some of Gaza's shortages.
But the key message from the body which rarely publicly criticises governments is that Israel's blockade of Gaza must be lifted.

That message is yet another indication of growing international concern over conditions in Gaza - *just last week US President Barack Obama called the situation there unsustainable.* 

The alleged illegality of the blockade has certainly not died an analytical death as you have commented.
The flotilla raid has actually highlighted the very fact that things in Gaza are not sustainable and what Israel has been doing up til now is certainly not acceptable and in clear violation of international humanitarian law.

*The blockade is not legal since it is a deliberate attempt to harm non combatants and innocents.
It is not just being used to screen for weapons or contraband as per comments by Israel on the purpose of the blockade.
At the end of the day, it is deliberately being used against all Gazans to regulate everyday items and create a shortage of these items; it is being used to let in not more than 25&#37; of what was the requirement in 2005. 
The intent therefore is to deliberately and directly make life difficult for the ordinary civilian living in Gaza. 
The intent is to deliberately make the non combatants suffer. 
The intent is criminal, not legal.
The action is in violation of international humanitarian law and hence it is not legal.
If this was not the intent then Israel would have had no problem in satisfying UN and other neutral parties over the amount of provisions it lets into Gaza, the policy of depriving a people of basic provisions of life in adequate quantity is not something we can allude to as legal or justified.*

The population density of Gaza is extremely high and a high percentage of the area has been damaged and needs repairs. 60,000 homes were destroyed in the recent years fighting and need to be repaired as well; hospitals were deliberately targeted by IDF and shall need to be repaired as well. 
All in all, there is an urgent need to restore some sort of normalcy in Gaza, which is impossible with the blockade in place.



gambit said:


> But then these 'peace activists' shot themselves in the foot by posting their own videos that clearly showed assault troops wielding paintball guns, making the Israeli military the laughing stock of the militaries of the world.



Regarding what really happened during this particular episode, the facts have yet to be established regarding who started the violence. Surely relying just on IDF accounts and a brief video processed by Israel is not enough evidence in a court of inquiry. 
The peace activists give a different account. The video released so far by Israel stops before the soldiers in the video open fire. The other videos are in bits and pieces as well.
The activists were killed by bullets and not paintball guns, the IDF did not just use paintball guns at the end of the day.

Lots of videos were confiscated by IDF which brutally beat up many journalists/activists during the post operation investigation. 
Certainly there needs to be a proper inquiry to establish what happened and more importantly in what order.
Things need to be verified and not just in light of what Israel has to say or offer as evidence or bits and pieces analyzed in isolation.

Were the Israeli commandos in a do or die situation prior to killing the activities? 
Were the dead activists attacking IDF soldiers when they were shot? What were the dead activists armed with when they were killed? When did IDF first shoot at the flotilla?

If IDF did nothing wrong and all evidence is in its favor as you so vehemently have been advocating, then surely Israelis have nothing to fear from an independent inquiry by UN. 
A UN inquiry is something very much valid here since this was an event which occurred in international waters and with many nationalities involved. What better way to exonerate its soldiers than a UN inquiry?

Surely it would only help Israel if it has not done wrong. Instead as per its norm, Israel has constituted its own commission to investigate the raid. 
The defendant shall be both the prosecutor and the Jury. 
That has mostly been the way with Israel; it is accountable to no one and has friends in high places to block any attempt to check this tendency of zero accountability. 
That is the reason Israel will never be trusted by the Palestinians and most of the world.



gambit said:


> I would not be a betting man if I were you.



I am not a betting man, but i can bet one thing.
The day USA stops shielding Israel in the UN security council, the situation will start to improve, otherwise it is a highway to hell for the Palestinian people.

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## FreekiN

Palestinian Terrorist Propaganda:

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## brahmastra

what is the current status on hostages?


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## Jigs

brahmastra said:


> what is the current status on hostages?



Which hostages ? All the Turkish ones are back in Turkey i don't think anyone is left in Israel.


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## brahmastra

Jigs said:


> Which hostages ? All the Turkish ones are back in Turkey i don't think anyone is left in Israel.



sorry, i wasn't updated.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jigs said:


> Which hostages ? All the Turkish ones are back in Turkey i don't think anyone is left in Israel.



now there are boats leaving Lebanon, from what I have heard. Also, Iranian are sending aid boats as well -- which will be VERY VERY interesting to see how that goes down.

they will probably aerial bombard it, then say the activists threw rocks at the flying aircrafts





'self defence national security...self defence self defence'




self-created BULLSHIT

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## brahmastra

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> now there are boats leaving Lebanon, from what I have heard. Also, Iranian are sending aid boats as well -- which will be VERY VERY interesting to see how that goes down.



they won't care who is sending ships but it will be interesting to see what happens when Iranian ships arrives near Gaza shores.


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## Jigs

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> now there are boats leaving Lebanon, from what I have heard. Also, Iranian are sending aid boats as well -- which will be VERY VERY interesting to see how that goes down.
> 
> they will probably aerial bombard it, then say the activists threw rocks at the flying aircrafts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'self defence national security...self defence self defence'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> self-created BULLSHIT



I wouldn't be surprised. They played out the whole weapons crap on the Turkish ship so much i thought they had found WMDs on it. Till i saw the kitchen knives . Who knows what they will say and do and blame on next.


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## littleangeljerry

I am really concerned at the condition of the people of Gaza....it's nuts out there....but still they are called as ''TERRORISTS'' while the israelis are ''DEFENDING THEIR COUNTRY''.....look now everyone knows of this propaganda BUT no one acts against it....only one solution can be done and that is that ALL muslim countries unite together against this ''UNRECOGNIZABLE COUNTRY''......

Hope to meet Gaza people soon.....don't you worry because we are cominbg soon REALLY SOON then you might expect us to.....

and soon WE will say....

 to GAZA!!!! THE CAPITAL OF PALESTINE!!!!!


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## fatman17

* Roger Cohen of NYT* 

Wednesday, June 16, 2010

M Shahid Alam

Roger Cohen is the rare columnist at New York Times who makes an occasional effort to bring some objectivity to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Yet, how far does his objectivity go?

Consider his piece of June 10, "Modern Folly and Ancient Wisdom." 

I have selected a few excerpts for comment.

First excerpt: "Israel's bloody interception of the Mavi Marmara and its motley crew was crass -- another example of the counterproductive use of force -- but nothing about it could justify the Turkish prime minister's outrageous statement that the world now perceives "the swastika and the Star of David together (italics mine)."

Why does he speak of the "motley crew" on the Mavi Marmara? First, is 'crew' the appropriate word for the humanitarian activists on a ship bringing relief to people under blockade? 'Crew' has unpleasant connotations. Let us consult the Oxford English Dictionary. Originally, it meant "an augmentation or reinforcement of a military force." Now, by extension, it means "Any organised or associated force, band, or body of armed men." 

In addition, why is this a 'motley' crew? Does he mean heterogeneous? In fact, most were Turkish. Why then are they "motley?" The word has a bad odour. The OED concurs. Consider two entries in the OED. Entry one: "Of a thing or collection of things: composed of elements of diverse or varied character, form, appearance, etc. Freq. with implication of poor design or organisation (italics added)." And entry two: Of a gathering or group of people: consisting of people of diverse or varied appearance, character, etc.; miscellaneous. Freq. depreciative (italics in the original).

Now consider this: Israel's behaviour was merely "crass &#8211; another example of the counterproductive use of force." So Cohen disapproves of Israel's behaviour because it is "crass" (stupid) and "counterproductive" to Israel. Nothing worse. On the other hand, the Turkish prime minister's statement is "outrageous." Criticism aimed at Israel is "outrageous" but Israel's massacre of humanitarian activists is merely "crass."

There is myopia too behind Cohen's anger at the Turkish prime minister's statement. He claims, "There is nothing about it [the illegal Israeli massacre of civilians]" that can justify Erdogan's statement. Is Erdogan's outrage a response only to the attack on the Flotilla &#8211; or is the world's perception of Israel slowly catching up to its long history of settler colonialism, ethnic cleansings, illegal wars, countless massacres of civilians, and wars daily threatened against Lebanon, Syria and Iran? Such myopia is inexcusable in one who should be better schooled in the Middle East.

Second excerpt: "Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the bristling leader who has given Kemal Ataturk's secular Turkey an Islamic tinge and an eastward-looking inclination, should know better than to invoke the Nazis when speaking of a state that emerged from the ashes of European Jewry (italics mine)."

Israel as "a state that emerged from the ashes of European Jewry" - that's a page out of Israeli hasbara. Using the Holocaust to justify the creation of Israel and the 'right' of Israel to immunity from international law. The Zionist movement was launched when Adolf Hitler was barely eight years old. Inside the supportive shell of the British occupation of Palestine, the Zionists in Palestine had already created the infrastructure of a Jewish society and state by the early 1930s, again long before the Holocaust. I am sure Roger Cohen knows all this; but does not matter to the way he thinks about Israel?

Third excerpt: "But it is still a liberal democracy, home to a level of debate and openness unknown elsewhere in the Middle East (italics added)."

Is Israel "still a liberal democracy?" Consensus on that claim is fast disappearing, even in partisan western societies. Then follows something inexcusably lame: he compares Israel to the despotisms supported by and allied to the USA and Israel. Look, Israel is still a liberal democracy: just compare it to the despotic monarchy of Saudi Arabia.

Fourth excerpt: "Its tactical lurches, often violent, do not add up to a strategy; they have resulted in a shocking erosion of Israel's stature."

Given what Israel is &#8211; an apartheid society, a garrison state founded on ethnic cleansing, a state that still practices ethnic cleansing, a nuclear-armed state threatening warfare against its neighbours &#8211; why should the erosion of Israel's "stature" be "shocking"? Shouldn't persons of liberal and humane values welcome this erosion? No so Roger Cohen of the New York Times.

Enough said: if this is what comes from the pen of a self-consciously liberal and humane Zionist, what can we expect from the rest of the "motley crew?"



The writer is professor of economics at Northeastern University, Boston. He is author of Israeli Exceptionalism (Palgrave, 2009) and Challenging the New Orientalism (IPI, 2006). Email: alqalam02760@ yahoo.com


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I hate to admit it. But i'm enjoying this.

I was not even 20 years old during the 2nd intifada when israel (under sharon regime) carried out its ritualistic killings of mostly civilians. 

and 10 years later, finally some people are having the courage to speak out against this country.


Norman Finkelstein on a 'lunatic state'







French Protest of Israeli Raid Reaches Wide Audience



> the ban was another sign of the growing &#8220;delegitimization of Israel&#8221; among the intellectual classes in France.



French Protest of Israeli Raid Reaches Wide Audience - NYTimes.com

USS Liberty attack remembered by survivor

(dont be fooled by the title, just read the last paragraph)

USS Liberty attack remembered by survivor - RT Top Stories


btw, Putin, EU and even Godfather Obama have condemned the action

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jigs said:


> I wouldn't be surprised. They played out the whole weapons crap on the Turkish ship so much i thought they had found WMDs on it. Till i saw the kitchen knives . Who knows what they will say and do and blame on next.



I dont like to joke on a sensitive topic like this, but next time, make good doner with those knives


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## SpArK

*Israeli ministers to vote on easing Gaza blockade*


By AMY TEIBEL (AP) &#8211;

JERUSALEM &#8212; Israel will significantly ease its bruising blockade of the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, officials said, in an effort to blunt the widespread international criticism that has followed a deadly Israeli commando raid on a blockade-busting flotilla.
Senior Cabinet ministers were meeting to limit restrictions to a short list of goods, such as cement and steel, which Israel says militants could use in their battle against the Jewish state.
But even those goods would be allowed in to an undetermined extent in coordination with the United Nations, the officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the decision has not been officially announced.
Israel, with Egypt's cooperation, has blockaded the Palestinian territory by land and sea ever since Hamas militants, with a violent anti-Israel agenda, seized control of Gaza three years ago. For the most part, only basic humanitarian goods have been allowed in.
The blockade was designed to keep out weapons, turn Gazans against their militant Hamas rulers and pressure Hamas to free a captive Israeli soldier. It did not achieve those aims, however, and both weapons and goods continued to flow into the territory through a large network of smuggling tunnels built under the Gaza-Egypt border.
But although the blockade deepened the poverty in Gaza and confined 1.5 million people to a tiny patch of land, it did not provoke an international outcry until Israeli commandos killed nine Turks two weeks ago during a raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla.
The Haaretz newspaper on Wednesday quoted international envoy Tony Blair as hailing the expected vote by the Israeli ministers.
"It will allow us to keep weapons and weapon materials out of Gaza, but on the other hand to help the Palestinian population there," Blair was quoted as saying. "The policy in Gaza should be to isolate the extremists but to help the people"
Blair represents the Quartet of Mideast negotiators &#8212; the U.S., European Union, U.N. and Russia.


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## SpArK

*Gaza: U.N. to Distribute Aid Seized by Israel in Blockade*




By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
Published: June 15, 2010

The United Nations expects to soon distribute the aid brought by a Turkish flotilla trying to run the Gaza blockade and seized by Israel after a bloody confrontation. Robert H. Serry, the United Nations envoy to the Middle East peace negotiations, told the United Nations Security Council on Tuesday that despite such attempts, Gaza received only a fraction of its needs. Three-quarters of the damage caused by the 2009 war&#8212; including homes schools and hospitals &#8212; has not been repaired or rebuilt, Mr. Serry reported. In roughly the past month, he said, an average of 566 trucks of goods entered Gaza weekly, a 6 percent drop from recent numbers.


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## SpArK

*Republic of Ireland ejects Israeli envoy*


Wednesday, 16 June 2010




Relations between Ireland and Israel reached an all-time low yesterday after the Republic&#8217;s government ordered the expulsion of an official from the Israeli embassy over the forgery of eight Irish passports.

Irish Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin refused to name the embassy worker or their rank, but it is expected that a security official will be removed.

He stressed that the official had not been accused or suspected of any wrongdoing, rather that they were a &#8220;victim of the actions of the state they represent&#8221;.

However, the knock-on effect of the passports scandal, and the expulsion, means relations between Ireland and Israel are now at a new low.

&#8220;The Irish government wants a relationship with Israel which is characterised by mutual trust and respect,&#8221; Mr Martin said.

&#8220;However, our investigations into the misuse of Irish passports have reached conclusions about the conduct of the Israeli authorities which are profoundly disturbing and which are seriously detrimental to the kind of relationship we would like to have with Israel.&#8221;

The decision to expel the diplomat was made at yesterday's Cabinet meeting and the demand was then presented to the Israeli ambassador, Dr Zion Evrony.

It is the first time a diplomat has been expelled from Ireland since the 1970s when several Soviet-era officials were ordered to leave the country.

A total of eight Irish passports were used by a Mossad unit that carried out the assasination of Hamas leader Mahmoud al Mabhouh in a Dubai hotel last January.

The numbers and expiry dates on the documents were genuine &#8212; however, the names had been changed.

A number of forged British and Australian passports were also used by the assassins and inquiries in those countries found that Israeli intelligence services were responsible.

Mr Martin said he was led to the &#8220;inescapable conclusion&#8221; that an Israeli government agency was also responsible for the misuse of the Irish passports and had most likely manufactured them.

The minister described the expulsion as a &#8220;protest action&#8221;.

Mr Martin said he hoped both countries could &#8220;move past this incident&#8221; and that such &#8220;unfriendly actions&#8221;, which were damaging to overall relations, would not be repeated.

The Israeli embassy said it regretted Dublin&#8217;s decision. &#8220;We believe that it does not reflect the overall positive relations which exist between Ireland and Israel,&#8221; it said.



Read more: Republic of Ireland ejects Israeli envoy - Local & National, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

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## SpArK

*Israel urges West against flotillas*









Israel has turned in recent days to a number of Western governments requesting they issue travel warnings to their nationals not to participate in additional flotillas trying to break the naval blockade of Gaza, government officials told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

According to the officials, the requests have fallen on attentive ears, especially since Hizbullah and Iran have said they will send ships of their own, something that is causing some Western governments to rethink the entire tactic.


At the same time, however, no government has actually issued an advisory.

The security cabinet is scheduled to meet Wednesday to discuss both how to deal with the impending flotillas and how to ease restrictions on the goods and materials allowed into Gaza. The meeting comes amid a growing sense in Jerusalem that a decision by the government to significantly ease up on what is allowed into Gaza through land crossings would bring about more cooperation by governments in dissuading their citizens from taking part in future attempts to break the blockade.

&#8220;Where there is a will, there is a way,&#8221; one senior Israeli official said of the ability of Western governments to prevent participation by their nationals.

The significance of the travel advisories, the official said, was that the minute a country recommended, for instance, that its parliamentarians not take part in a flotilla, a parliamentarian who goes ahead and does so would be &#8220;on his own.&#8221;

That particular country, then, would be less able to come with complaints and demands against Israel after an arrest, since it had officially warned its citizens against participation.

The nationals of 12 countries were involved in the attempt by the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara to break the naval blockade.

Nine people were killed on the ship after they attacked IDF soldiers dropped on board to keep it from sailing to Gaza.


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## gambit

All-Green said:


> First of all, the withdrawal of IDF land forces from Gaza in 2005 has not changed much in terms of hardship imposed upon the Gazans.
> Yet nowhere do I seem to recall that I have denied IDF withdrawal from the land on Gaza in 2005, contrary to your belief.
> Forced my admission?
> Be honest here my friend, where have I said that IDF did not withdraw its infantry in 2005 from the Gazan land?


It is not merely that you have not denied that fact but also that you never considered it. Another important fact is that when Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05, there was *NO* blockade. The result was that Hamas was able to smuggled in enough arms to launch thousands of rockets into Israel. A blockade is an act of war. There was no blockade back in '05. Hamas armed itself. Launching thousands of rockets into another's territory is an act of war. Then a blockade was imposed. This chain of cause and consequences is irrelevant to you?



All-Green said:


> Regarding the disproportionate force, it is a fact not fiction.


Never said it was 'fiction'. I said it is legitimate to bring to the fight disproportionate force.



All-Green said:


> There are countless examples of this by IDF and I have pasted the excerpt of one such report by UN which investigated the events in Gaza.
> IDF claimed that there was no possibility of deliberate targeting of civilians and its target was Hamas.
> Sadly this was proven to be untrue and UN fact finding committee gave an entirely different account.
> I posted it before, highlighting some important parts and yet you seem to have ignored it because we are still arguing about the legality of Israeli actions pertaining to Gaza, despite clearly falling in line with the very definition of war crimes.
> Here is the link for detailed reading, maybe it makes you understand why the legality of Israeli actions has been in question.
> http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/9B63490FFCBE44E5C1257632004EA67B?opendocument
> 
> Deliberately killing civilians whom the IDF troops themselves gathered at a location, deliberately targeting a hospital, etc. These are results of UN fact finding missions and not references that have no significance.
> This implicates Israel in crimes that make its operations illegal due to deliberate intent to target civilians and innocents on top of the militant heads that it collects.
> This is where the legality of Israeli actions comes into question; this is where most of the world sees the blockade as an extension of the same oppression which Israel has been perpetrating in the name of self defense.


If Israel was 'deliberately' targeting civilians, there would have been far more civilian deaths in Gaza. There would have been no withdrawal from Gaza, no blockade and this so-called 'humanitarian aid' fleet would have been sunk. To you, any Palestinian death no matter the actual cause is 'deliberate'.

The Goldstone report is challenged here...

Understanding The Goldstone Report
The Goldstone Report
Take-a-pen.Calls for Action-The Goldstone Report - Take A Pen's submission and actions-MEMORANDUM To the President of The United Nations Human Rights Council

I have read the entire report and you might want to check out the section where Hamas is also mentioned regarding war crimes, as scant as it was.

United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict


> 36. Although the incidents investigated by the Mission did not establish the use of mosques for military purposes or to shield military activities, *it cannot exclude that this might have occurred in other cases.* The Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinians armed groups to shield military activities or that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes. On the basis of its own investigations and the statements by United Nations officials, the Mission excludes that Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat activities from United Nations facilities that were used as shelters during the military operations. The Mission cannot, however, discount the possibility that Palestinian armed groups were active in the vicinity of such United Nations facilities and hospitals. While the conduct of hostilities in built-up areas does not, of itself, constitute a violation of international law, Palestinian armed groups, where they launched attacks close to civilian or protected buildings, unnecessarily exposed the civilian population of Gaza to danger.
> 
> 108. The Mission has determined that the rockets and, to a lesser extent, the mortars fired by the Palestinian armed groups are incapable of being directed towards specific military objectives and have been fired into areas where civilian populations are based. The Mission has further determined that these attacks *constitute indiscriminate attacks on the civilian population of southern Israel and that, where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into a civilian population, they constitute a deliberate attack against a civilian population.*


For us military types who have been to the ME at any time, it is drilled into us that if it ever come to war, we had be prepared to face the reality that civilian human shield will be used by ME militaries. There are no shortages of video evidences that protected vehicles such as ambulances were used by various Palestinian armed groups to transport weapons and combatants. Why is this not a war crime to you? The ME militaries have no respect for any rules of war. Hamas, Hezbollah or Fatah are no different. The reason why Hamas launched rockets near protected areas is because they want Israel to respond and for Gazans to die so they can engage in a PR campaign that Israel 'deliberately' targeted civilians.

On page 150 paragraph 493 of the Goldstone report, it read...



> 493. The reports received by the Mission suggest that it is likely that the Palestinian armed groups did not at all times adequately distinguish themselves from the civilian population among whom the hostilities were being conducted. *Their failure to distinguish themselves from the civilian population by distinctive signs is not a violation of international law in itself*, but would have denied them some of the legal privileges afforded to combatants.








That is patently false. International law *DEMANDED* that combatants clearly distinguish themselves from non-combatants...

International Humanitarian Law - Third 1949 Geneva Convention


> Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
> (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
> 
> (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
> (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
> *(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;*
> (c) that of carrying arms openly;
> (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.



International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977


> Article 37 -- Prohibition of perfidy
> 
> 1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
> 
> (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
> (b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
> *(c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status*; and
> (d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.
> 
> 2. Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation.


In order to earn POW status, the combatant *MUST* clearly distinguish himself from non-combatants in both visual and physical, meaning not only must he be in some sort of uniform but he must also removed himself from civilian areas. Not only that, his military operations must also be equally removed, such as rocket launchers or headquarters or tanks or aircrafts. So when the Goldstone report make this kind of egregious error, no wonder so many people have doubts about the report's true intent, which is to protect Hamas by overemphasizing Israeli actions and even distortion of international laws. By refusing to clearly distinguish themselves from non-combatants, Hamas fighters are guilty of perfidy, which is a war crime under international law. Or are these applicable only to Israel?



All-Green said:


> Regarding the particulars of the blockade and its legality, IDF has withdrawn from the Land but it is not like they have left Gaza alone and just resort to the blockade and inspection of goods.
> IDF has practically saved itself from bloody urban battles and yet can bombard any area at any given time by using its air assets, naval vessels and its heavy artillery, which it does without any restraint. Hamas is dealt with by using maximum force resulting in a lot of collateral so IDF has not given any respite to Gazans by reducing the military approach.


Why have Israel not left Gaza alone? Let me guess, you 'forgot' that Hamas had nothing to do with those rockets? By withdrawal from Gaza and with no blockade, Israel took a gamble to place some measure of trust that such concession will earn some peace. Can you explain why Hamas attacked?



All-Green said:


> To pretend that the blockade is a more peaceful posture is not correct.* Blockade currently serves as an additional means to target Gazans as a whole regardless of militant or civilian; it is not an alternative to the bombardment carried out by IDF*.


There is no pretense here that a blockade is are more restrained form of warfare. If you want Israel to specifically target Hamas military-type areas, feel free to point them out to me. Else Israel would have to reenter Gaza as a belligerent occupier. A blockade is an act of war. So is launching rockets into another's territory. Or did you forget that there were rockets?



All-Green said:


> The fact remains that Israel has blockaded Gaza and does not let in ample provisions as per UN and other independent sources. There is a severe shortage of provisions for the use of ordinary Civilians who are all suffering as a result.


And there are plenty of sources that contradict you...

CIC Scene Facts Beyond the Spin: Israel Delivers Massive Aid to Gaza
The Muqata: Exclusive: Interview with Senior Israeli Official from COGAT


> As of now, there are 8 trucks at the Israeli - Gaza border crossing of Kerem Shalom; 7 of which contain medical equipment for the disabled and elderly, including 100 electric mobility scooters and hundreds of wheelchairs.
> 
> Unfortunately, the disabled, sick and elderly in Gaza are denied this aid, because Hamas has forbidden anyone in Gaza to coordinate the distribution of this equipment.
> 
> Hamas has stated that until every last one of the flotilla activists have returned to their home countries, they will refuse to allow the aid to enter Gaza."


So Hamas is punishing Gazans but no one raised hue and cry about it.



> "On a daily basis 80-100 trucks with humanitarian aid enters Gaza via Israel. The aid is not only medical supplies, but also contains supplies that support a wide range of important infrastructure projects, including water, sewage, and electrical power. We [COGAT] coordinate our efforts with UNRWA, UNESCO, WHO, UNICEF and we even help facilitate the transfer of toys and the enabling of mobile swimming pools for Gazan summer camps.
> 
> The result of the current policies is that theirs a wide inventory and scale of food products, medical equipment and medications. *Any allegations to the contrary are baseless; these facts are well-documented in UN agencies' official reports.*


If there are any discrepancy of aid figures between COGAT and the UN, they can be explain or reconciled, but it cannot be said that Israel is not working with the UN or NGOs to deliver aid, provided that any shipment is available for inspection, which is legal under blockades. So COGAT is openly challeging any UN official who declared otherwise.



> Q: If its urgent for all this humanitarian aid to get into Gaza, why is Hamas not allowing it in?
> A: We (COGAT) have even *asked the Red Cross to help with distributing the medical equipment, yet they have refused to get involved.* We have 13 trucks waiting in Israel, not including the 9 at the Keren Shalom crossing, and we're just waiting to send it in.


To be fair to the Red Cross, if there is insufficient security or protection from the fighting, then the Red Cross is undestandibly reluctant. But it begs the question of why is there fighting in the first place when Israel withdrew from Gaza and had no blockade back then. Can you explain why?



All-Green said:


> And the ICRC blames differences between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority for some of Gaza's shortages.


A watered down criticism. You can criticize both parties but to mislead you would cast the heaviest condemnation onto one. Did the ICRC say anything about originally there were no blockade?



All-Green said:


> But the key message from the body which rarely publicly criticises governments is that Israel's blockade of Gaza must be lifted.


Yes...That is desirable. But so is Israel's security from the Gaza territory. Who is the guarantor?



All-Green said:


> The alleged illegality of the blockade has certainly not died an analytical death as you have commented.


Yes it has.



All-Green said:


> The blockade is not legal since it is a deliberate attempt to harm non combatants and innocents.


If that is true, then blockades are never 'legal' to start. What you mean here is if a blockade is justified. UN resolutions 661 and 665 are blockades against Iraq. Throughout history, there are plenty of other blockades that are justified, at least in some views. The American blockade of Cuba, in the US view, was justified but it can arguably be illegal since Cuba was not in any armed conflict against the US. The nuclear weapons severity necessitated the total blockade of Cuba. For Gaza, the blockade is justified because Israel does not want to be a belligerent occupier but is compelled to impose the blockade because of Hamas. Or did you conveniently forgot about the rockets that Hamas smuggled in when there was no blockade?



All-Green said:


> It is not just being used to screen for weapons or contraband as per comments by Israel on the purpose of the blockade.


Then what is it for?



All-Green said:


> At the end of the day, it is deliberately being used against all Gazans to regulate everyday items and create a shortage of these items; it is being used to let in not more than 25% of what was the requirement in 2005.
> The intent therefore is to deliberately and directly make life difficult for the ordinary civilian living in Gaza.
> The intent is to deliberately make the non combatants suffer.
> The intent is criminal, not legal.
> The action is in violation of international humanitarian law and hence it is not legal.
> If this was not the intent then Israel would have had no problem in satisfying UN and other neutral parties over the amount of provisions it lets into Gaza, the policy of depriving a people of basic provisions of life in adequate quantity is not something we can allude to as legal or justified.


Then all Hamas has to do is stop using Gaza as a war staging front. Do you agree? Remember, Israel withdrew back in '05 and there was no blockade? Care to explain why there is a blockade now?



All-Green said:


> All in all, there is an urgent need to restore some sort of normalcy in Gaza, which is impossible with the blockade in place.


You mean you want it normal as in normal for Hamas to launch rockets? Care to explain why the rockets when Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there was no blockade?



All-Green said:


> Regarding what really happened during this particular episode, the facts have yet to be established regarding who started the violence. Surely relying just on IDF accounts and a brief video processed by Israel is not enough evidence in a court of inquiry.
> *The peace activists give a different account.* The video released so far by Israel stops before the soldiers in the video open fire. The other videos are in bits and pieces as well.
> The activists were killed by bullets and not paintball guns, the IDF did not just use paintball guns at the end of the day.


Here is a screenshot of the activist video that I downloaded...






That was from the full 60 min video, not from the IDF but from Iara Lee, who was on that ship and in that video. At around the 36 min. mark is where some actions begin. Israeli helo troop drop did not happened until after the above screenshot. We can clearly see that Israeli troops were shooting with paintball guns. The first 'shots' in the video were from 'flash-bangs'. I know that sound. The 'flash-bangs' can be painful but they are not lethal. These 'peace activists' probably learned of this fact from the other ships. They were prepared to assault those Israeli troops.



All-Green said:


> Were the Israeli commandos in a do or die situation prior to killing the activities?
> Were the dead activists attacking IDF soldiers when they were shot? What were the dead activists armed with when they were killed? When did IDF first shoot at the flotilla?


In the confusion of any gunfight, especially one in close quarters, probably some were killed by stray shots not because they were directly in a fight. Some were killed because they were in direct fights. But if you are outnumbered two or more why is it unreasonable to assume that you are in a life threatening situation?



All-Green said:


> If IDF did nothing wrong and all evidence is in its favor as you so vehemently have been advocating, then surely Israelis have nothing to fear from an independent inquiry by UN.
> A UN inquiry is something very much valid here since this was an event which occurred in international waters and with many nationalities involved. What better way to exonerate its soldiers than a UN inquiry?


We can criticize Israel for not using the UN. But an 'independent' UN enquiry should have a basis, meaning what is it investigating for? Is it illegal to board ships in international waters? Not really...

Crimes Under Flags of Convenience | YaleGlobal Online Magazine


> In June, 2002, *French commandos boarded the Cambodian-registered freighter Winner in international waters* in the Atlantic amid an exchange of gunfire that injured one of the 12 crew members. The troops seized more than one tonne of Colombian cocaine worth well over $100 million in a cargo that was registered as scrap iron destined for Bilbao in Spain. Officials said that the raid was the result of 15-months of surveillance involving U.S., French, Spanish and Greek authorities.


A blockade is an act of war. Running a blockade, regardless of one's claim to peaceful intent and under the full knowledge that there is a blockade, is also an act of war. That mean intercepting a blockade runner in international waters is legal. International law state that the moment a non-combatant pick up a weapon, even an improvised one, and attack a soldier, one who is clearly distinguished such as wearing a uniform, the civilian loses immunity from attack or reprisal. That is not debatable.



All-Green said:


> I am not a betting man, but i can bet one thing.
> The day USA stops shielding Israel in the UN security council, the situation will start to improve, otherwise it is a highway to hell for the Palestinian people.


You can also bet that the day Hamas lay down its arms in Gaza and there is a competent authority in Gaza to assure Israel of its right to security, Israel will no good cause for any blockade or any travel restrictions in/out out Gaza. Funny that Egypt is not mentioned since Egypt is doing the same thing as Israel. But then again, if these 'peace activists' had dared to run the Egyptian land blockade, all of them would have been dead.


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands refers to the 20th century mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Between 800,000-1,000,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries due to persecution and anti-Semitism. Lebanon had been the only Arab country to see a temporal increase in its Jewish population after 1948.

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theres a saying the USA what is fair for the goose is fair for the gander. Are we going to restore the Jews land to the Jews.

Also I see 25,000 Pakistanis killed by the Taliban, Saddam gassing the Kurds mainly women and children by the thousands, as long as its Muslems killing Muslems it does not get any where the out rage that Isreal receives.

Are you sure its a real concern about the Palestinians or is it just anti Jewish Racism and Religious Bigotry. Any one even tiny bit interested about being fair or even handed in all of this.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

its genuine concern for Palestinians, not anti Semitism.

Orthodox Jews even have supported the creation of Palestine, and in fact many of them are die-hard anti-Zionists

maybe you conveniently forgot that side of the picture??


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> its genuine concern for Palestinians, not anti Semitism.
> 
> Orthodox Jews even have supported the creation of Palestine, and in fact many of them are die-hard anti-Zionists
> 
> maybe you conveniently forgot that side of the picture??



Not sure I understand what you mean, but I just see concern for the Palestinians and none for the Jews. As far as right and wrong I see it on both side, personally I think a few square miles of land in the middle east can be spared for the Jews especially since its the birth place of their religion as well as that of Christianity and Islam.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Not sure I understand what you mean



do a google search for Neturei Karta --- or just type ''anti zionist Jews''

maybe that'll help you



> but I just see concern for the Palestinians and none for the Jews.





''Jew'' is not a nationality

I have less concerns for israelis since they seem to be living quite comfortably, at the expense of Palestinians under occupation living under the most abject circumstances

and dont annoy me about rocket attacks, because those are mere fire-crackers compared to what israel has done to them





> As far as right and wrong I see it on both side, personally I think a few square miles of land in the middle east can be spared for the Jews especially since its the birth place of their religion as well as that of Christianity and Islam.



it doesnt matter....most of the people there (especially the non-Sephardis) are NOT indigenous to the middle east. They have NO business being there, other than the notion that the land was ''promised'' to them

and in fact if you followed the news, there are now divisions between more liberal Sephardis and the more die-hard zionist Ashkenazis who hailed from eastern europe if i'm not mistaken








As a Pakistani, I would be a hypocrite to say that Jews dont deserve a homeland. But at this expense, and at this cost of blood of Palestinians (and the other neighbour countries) and their honour? 

It was Berlin who should have offered them a seperate homeland since the beginning. How these people ended up in Arab lands is beyond me.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Germany Blasts Minister's Blocked Entry to Gaza​*


> BERLIN: Germany slammed Israel for preventing Development Minister Dirk Niebel from entering the Gaza Strip to meet with Palestinian refugees during his current visit to the region.
> 
> "I believe that Israel has a need for transparency to render credible the idea that it is changing its political strategy towards Gaza, and my visit would have created that transparency," Niebel said on German public television.
> 
> Niebel wanted to visit the Hamas-run Palestinian territory Sunday to meet representatives of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine refugees.
> 
> German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said in a statement in Berlin that he also "regretted" the decision by the Israeli government, and underlined that Germany and the European Union want to see an end to the Gaza blockade.
> 
> Niebel, who is vice president of his country's German-Israeli association, said time was running out for Israel to move away from hardline policies in light of international protests over its Gaza policy and faltering efforts to achieve a viable peace deal with the Palestinians.





Germany blasts minister''s blocked entry to Gaza - GEO.tv


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## oceanx

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> It was Berlin who should have offered them a seperate homeland since the beginning. How these people ended up in Arab lands is beyond me.



There is a degree of justification to that sentiment especially upon consideration that the full-time soldiers and part-time rapists (or was it the other way around?) of the various 2nd tier Red Army corps (no offense but this was well recorded in history) essentially turned East Prussia into a genuine "land without people" ...

Would've been fit for a "people without land" ...

Too late now ... K&#246;nigsberg has long been Kaliningrad.

Alright it's all water under the bridge ... until the bridge itself is one day swept away ... then it'll just be all water, all red, everywhere ...


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> do a google search for Neturei Karta --- or just type ''anti zionist Jews''
> 
> maybe that'll help you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ''Jew'' is not a nationality
> 
> I have less concerns for israelis since they seem to be living quite comfortably, at the expense of Palestinians under occupation living under the most abject circumstances
> 
> and dont annoy me about rocket attacks, because those are mere fire-crackers compared to what israel has done to them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it doesnt matter....most of the people there (especially the non-Sephardis) are NOT indigenous to the middle east. They have NO business being there, other than the notion that the land was ''promised'' to them
> 
> and in fact if you followed the news, there are now divisions between more liberal Sephardis and the more die-hard zionist Ashkenazis who hailed from eastern europe if i'm not mistaken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a Pakistani, I would be a hypocrite to say that Jews dont deserve a homeland. But at this expense, and at this cost of blood of Palestinians (and the other neighbour countries) and their honour?
> 
> It was Berlin who should have offered them a seperate homeland since the beginning. How these people ended up in Arab lands is beyond me.



600,000 were driven from their homes in the middle east.


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> do a google search for Neturei Karta --- or just type ''anti zionist Jews''
> 
> maybe that'll help you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ''Jew'' is not a nationality
> 
> I have less concerns for israelis since they seem to be living quite comfortably, at the expense of Palestinians under occupation living under the most abject circumstances
> 
> and dont annoy me about rocket attacks, because those are mere fire-crackers compared to what israel has done to them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it doesnt matter....most of the people there (especially the non-Sephardis) are NOT indigenous to the middle east. They have NO business being there, other than the notion that the land was ''promised'' to them
> 
> and in fact if you followed the news, there are now divisions between more liberal Sephardis and the more die-hard zionist Ashkenazis who hailed from eastern europe if i'm not mistaken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a Pakistani, I would be a hypocrite to say that Jews dont deserve a homeland. But at this expense, and at this cost of blood of Palestinians (and the other neighbour countries) and their honour?
> 
> It was Berlin who should have offered them a seperate homeland since the beginning. How these people ended up in Arab lands is beyond me.



600,000 Jews were driven from their homes in the middle east
Best I can tell on the Rocket attacks. The study analyzed 114 reported strikes from unmanned aircraft during a six-year period. It says press accounts say the assaults killed up to 1,210 individuals, of whom as many as 850 were described as militants. The analysis says about a third of those killed were civilians. This brings up the question of how many Afghanstans and Pakistinias would the militans kill in the rest of their lives and the price of doing less.


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> do a google search for Neturei Karta --- or just type ''anti zionist Jews''
> 
> maybe that'll help you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ''Jew'' is not a nationality
> 
> I have less concerns for israelis since they seem to be living quite comfortably, at the expense of Palestinians under occupation living under the most abject circumstances
> 
> and dont annoy me about rocket attacks, because those are mere fire-crackers compared to what israel has done to them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it doesnt matter....most of the people there (especially the non-Sephardis) are NOT indigenous to the middle east. They have NO business being there, other than the notion that the land was ''promised'' to them
> 
> and in fact if you followed the news, there are now divisions between more liberal Sephardis and the more die-hard zionist Ashkenazis who hailed from eastern europe if i'm not mistaken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a Pakistani, I would be a hypocrite to say that Jews dont deserve a homeland. But at this expense, and at this cost of blood of Palestinians (and the other neighbour countries) and their honour?
> 
> It was Berlin who should have offered them a seperate homeland since the beginning. How these people ended up in Arab lands is beyond me.



I was under the impression that the Palestinians in Israel have a higher standard of living in Israel then most Arabs in the middle east, should be fairly easy to check


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## Abu Zolfiqar

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> 600,000 Jews were driven from their homes in the middle east



I'm not denying what you said, but I request a link for support.

Just out of curiosity, how many Palestinians have been driven out from their homes and/or killed?

and on a side note, i believe israel should be thankful to Iran -- they took in many many Jews during the atrocities committed against them during holocaust genocide. There is documented proof of this. Yet israelis talk about attacking them.




> Best I can tell on the Rocket attacks. The study analyzed 114 reported strikes from unmanned aircraft during a six-year period. It says press accounts say the assaults killed up to 1,210 individuals, of whom as many as 850 were described as militants. The analysis says about a third of those killed were civilians. This brings up the question of how many Afghanstans and Pakistinias would the militans kill in the rest of their lives and the price of doing less.



militants have killed 3,500 Pakistanis (mostly civilians) in terrorist attacks in the past 3-4 years. 

(probably more than that, those are just 'official' figures)

but that is another subject

the militants are basically criminals who claim to be driven by religious ''zeal'' --bent and ''honed'' to suit their twisted objectives.

Palestinians who resort to militancy do so because they have lost everything, or seen people lose everything. They are under occupation and under total control by an outsider entity.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> I was under the impression that the Palestinians in Israel have a higher standard of living in Israel then most Arabs in the middle east, should be fairly easy to check



well i have no figures on ''most'' of the Arabs; but as is the case with Central/Latin America, you cannot put them all in the same category or league for economic, leadership, and political reasons.

I should be giving credit to those Palestinians in israel, not to israel itself. They were there first, then israel came later.

I mean --- look at Haifa. It used to be pretty much all Arabs as late as late 1800s; by the time of mass migrations and forced removals (AKA 1948 onwards) -- they became minority.


read the accounts of one Alexander Bligh; he covers the topic of Palestinian minorities in what is today israel


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well i have no figures on ''most'' of the Arabs; but as is the case with Central/Latin America, you cannot put them all in the same category or league for economic, leadership, and political reasons.
> 
> I should be giving credit to those Palestinians in israel, not to israel itself. They were there first, then israel came later.
> 
> I mean --- look at Haifa. It used to be pretty much all Arabs as late as late 1800s; by the time of mass migrations and forced removals (AKA 1948 onwards) -- they became minority.
> 
> 
> read the accounts of one Alexander Bligh; he covers the topic of Palestinian minorities in what is today israel



Arabs in Israel seem to have much less to fear and less harsh treatment then Jews had in Arab Countries.. All most all the Jews around one million have been driven from Arab Countries, but only about half the Arabs from Israel and those that are left dont seem to be doing too bad or they would leave too. Take a look at how many Jews are left in each Arab country.
Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## gambit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and on a side note, i believe israel should be thankful to Iran -- they took in many many Jews during the atrocities committed against them during holocaust genocide. There is documented proof of this. Yet israelis talk about attacking them.


States or regimes are governments and do not deal with nations or peoples but with or against other regimes. The Iranian regime that saved some Jews during the Holocaust probably did not deny the existence of the Holocaust. But the Iranian regime that currently deny the existence of the Holocaust also supported Hamas and Hezbollah.


----------



## FreekiN

What does Castro think about Israel today?

Fidel Castro's lash against Israel a calculated move - Myriam Marquez - MiamiHerald.com

>"The hatred felt by the state of Israel against the Palestinians is such that they would not hesitate to send the one-and-a-half million men, women and children of that country to the crematoria where millions of Jews of all ages were exterminated by the Nazis,'' Castro sneered in a statement released by Cuban officials at the ill-named U.N. Human Rights Council last week. ``It would seem that the Fuhrer's swastika is today Israel's banner.''

what was the rebuttal?

>"U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz set Cuba straight: ``These outrageous anti-Semitic comments are an insult to the millions of Jews who were systematically killed or tortured by the Nazis. These aren't just the comments of some doddering anti-Semite who is losing his faculties. These malicious comments were officially distributed by Cuba's government. . . . This is yet another glaring example of why we should not expand relations with the Cuban government.''

ANTI SEMITE, ANTI SEMITE...HOLOCAUST SYMPATHY. FEEL BAD FOR ISRAEL!


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## pshamim

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> 600,000 Jews were driven from their homes in the middle east
> Best I can tell on the Rocket attacks. The study analyzed 114 reported strikes from unmanned aircraft during a six-year period. It says press accounts say the assaults killed up to 1,210 individuals, of whom as many as 850 were described as militants. The analysis says about a third of those killed were civilians. This brings up the question of how many Afghanstans and Pakistinias would the militans kill in the rest of their lives and the price of doing less.



I am not into bashing any one for their views but your arguments show a high degree of ignorance and a childish behavior. Posing as a retired white American is useless. Your choice of words has already exposed you in another thread.

You have also conveniently forgotten 6 million jews slaughtered by Christians but remembered 600,000 driven from their homes by Muslims is nothing but an attempt to malign One Billion Muslims. Your statements expose you to be grieving because India was once ruled by the Muslims. That is where your hatred for Pakistanis originates from and is reflected in your posts.

We have many Indian posters , who are not ashamed of their identity and do not hide it. They may have their views contrary to ours but have my respect for being fair and have a meaningful discussion unlike your efforts to start a pissing and shitting contest.

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## Meengla

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Arabs in Israel seem to have much less to fear and less harsh treatment then Jews had in Arab Countries..* All most all the Jews around one million have been driven from Arab Countries, but only about half the Arabs from Israel and those that are left dont seem to be doing too bad or they would leave too. Take a look at how many Jews are left in each Arab country.*
> Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What you and your kind quite conveniently forget to mention that these Jews have been living in the Arab lands for* hundreds of years* and started leaving when the Zionists' dream of the State of Israel was coming to reality. What you conveniently forget to mention is that as much of a MILLION JEWS have left the former USSR after the Cold War ended--were they too driven by 'the Muslims'? Ponder the timing of events.
Jews, despite incidence of violence against them occasionally, have found far more welcoming homes in the midst of Arabs, Iranians, and Turks especially when compared with the bigotry of Christians. Holocaust the most recent example of Christian intolerance but Europe had that ugly history for centuries.

Now to the Arabs leaving the historic Palestine: These Arabs did not leave for some 'Promised Land'. They were forced to leave--the Naqba-- around 1948. They remain refugees, according the same UN whose 'Partition Plan' you Israeli supporters so frequently quote. How many people talk about Jewish 'refugees'? 

You cannot compare the plight of the 4+ million Palestinian refugees, scattered over the Arab world with those of the Jewish migrants--mostly by choice--who enjoy some of the highest living standard of living in the Middle East. Backed up American $$

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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Protestors Block Israeli Cargo in California ​*


> Hundreds of pro-Palestinian demonstrators gathered at the Port of Oakland before dawn Sunday in a bid to prevent an Israeli cargo ship from unloading for the day.
> 
> Richard Becker ANSWER Coalition, one of the groups which organized the protest, told the San Francisco Chronicle: "Our objective was to boycott this ship for 24 hours, and we succeeded in doing that."
> 
> The newspaper reported that the demonstrators first gathered before dawn at Berth 58, where a ship from Israel's Zim shipping line was scheduled to dock Sunday, first in the morning then in the afternoon. It eventually arrived around 6 pm, Becker said, but by that time the dockworkers had agreed not to show up to unload the vessel.
> 
> 
> Becker said some workers showed up for the morning shift, but virtually none did for the second. All agreed not to unload the ship or cross the picket lines, citing concern for their personal safety. There were no reports of violence or arrests.
> 
> Clips posted on YouTube show the protestors marching to the port, chanting "free Palestine" and waving Turkish and Palestinian flags. They held signs calling for the boycott of Israeli goods and an end to the American aid to Israel.
> 
> The protest's leader said the dockworkers should refuse to accept "Israeli apartheid goods" and that the protestors' goal was to block the unloading for a total of 24 hours. He compared it to the struggle in South Africa in the 1980s, when many places refused to deal with the racist regime.
> 
> "We want to send a clear message that if you commit acts of piracy on the high sea, if you go and attack civilians and kill them in cold blood, execution style, if you put Gaza under siege, if you build an apartheid wall, if you have a racist nut for a foreign minister like Avigdor Lieberman, who is calling for the expulsion of the Palestinian people from 1948, that we will not honor your Israeli commerce right here in this town."
> 
> The Oakland Port is not the first to witness an anti-Israel protest. Several days after the death of nine pro-Palestinian activists in a Navy raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla, Swedish dockworkers launched a weeklong boycott of Israeli ships and goods.
> 
> Peter Annerback, a spokesman for the Swedish Port Workers Union which has around 1,500 members, said workers were urged to refuse handling of Israeli goods and ships during the June 15-24 boycott.
> 
> In a statement, the union said the reason for the boycott "is the unprecedented criminal attack on the peaceful ship convoy In Gaza. Several peace activists were killed by Israeli commandos and other participants were detained without any reason."
> 
> It also urged other unions and organizations to join them through similar initiatives and called for Israel to be brought to justice for the attack and that it respects international law "and that the blockade of Gaza immediately lifted."




Al-ManarTV:: Protestors Block Israeli Cargo in California 21/06/2010

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Meengla said:


> What you and your kind quite conveniently forget to mention that these Jews have been living in the Arab lands for* hundreds of years* and started leaving when the Zionists' dream of the State of Israel was coming to reality. What you conveniently forget to mention is that as much of a MILLION JEWS have left the former USSR after the Cold War ended--were they too driven by 'the Muslims'? Ponder the timing of events.
> Jews, despite incidence of violence against them occasionally, have found far more welcoming homes in the midst of Arabs, Iranians, and Turks especially when compared with the bigotry of Christians. Holocaust the most recent example of Christian intolerance but Europe had that ugly history for centuries.
> 
> Now to the Arabs leaving the historic Palestine: These Arabs did not leave for some 'Promised Land'. They were forced to leave--the Naqba-- around 1948. They remain refugees, according the same UN whose 'Partition Plan' you Israeli supporters so frequently quote. How many people talk about Jewish 'refugees'?
> 
> You cannot compare the plight of the 4+ million Palestinian refugees, scattered over the Arab world with those of the Jewish migrants--mostly by choice--who enjoy some of the highest living standard of living in the Middle East. Backed up American $$



I doubt if all the Jews left for the Promise Land either.
The Palestinian refugees are approximately 726,000 Christians and Muslims (amounting to 75% of the Arab population of Palestine) who resided in what is now Israel and who fled or were expelled prior to, during and after the 1948 War to create a state for Jews in Palestine. They and their descendents are often referred to as the 1948 refugees. See map: Population Movements, 1948-1951,
:: Negotiations Affairs Department ::

In 1967, an additional 200,000 Palestinians [2] fled their homes in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip when Israel launched a war against Jordan and Egypt, capturing and occupying the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip (the Occupied Palestinian Territories). They and their descendents are often referred to as the 1967 displaced persons.

Neither the 1948 refugees nor the 1967 displaced persons have been allowed by Israel to return to their homes in what is now Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.


About a million Jews were run out of Muslim Countries and about million Palestinians were run out of Israel, seems pretty even to me. It really dont matter neither Israel or the Jews are going anywhere.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> About a million Jews were run out of Muslim Countries and about million Palestinians were run out of Israel, seems pretty even to me. It really dont matter neither Israel or the Jews are going anywhere.




no it isnt even. The Palestinians are indigenous to the land. Many israeli ''citizens'' were born and/or hail from Europe --especially Germany, Austria, Poland and Russia. 

They have no ethnic or racial ties to remotely ANYWHERE in the middle east. Judaism is not a race; its only just a religion. It is important for people here to never fall victim to the propaganda that ''Jew'' is a race or nationality. That is a giant load of bullshit.






p.s. Wealthy Jews Now Leaving Israel


Its silly to blame Palestinian militants when there have hardly even been any terrorist incidents in what is called israeli territory. Little to NONE at all.


_Israelis leave the country for many reasons. Ms Max says she and her family did not decide to go because of the violence. "I'm leaving because I've always wanted to," she says. "I came here as a Zionist but found Israeli culture was very different from what I was used to." She stayed, she says, first because she met her husband, then for her children. _

Israelis Leave Their 'Promised Land' Forced Out By A Battered Economy And Years Of Violence


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## Meengla

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Again, you are evading the issue of timing. Those 1 million Jews were 'run out' around the time of the creation of Israel. Considering that they had lived in Muslim lands for hundreds of years, it is fair to assume that their running-out had at least something to do with their 'choice' to make the 'Aaliyah'? The proof of Aaliya or willing-migration is that it has been happening since 1948--the recent influx of USSR Jews is a good example--*tells me that most of these Jewish 'expulsion' was a result of intentional migration to the 'Promised Land'. *
> Compare that with the Palestinians--they had no where to go except the refugee camps and life of second-class citizens. Would they have 'migrated' by choice? No. They were forced out.

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

I have wondred for years and still do is this hate of Muslems for the Jews because of the plight of the palestinian people or is it simply racial an religious biggotry. Guess it could be some of both.


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## EjazR

^^^
If you look at the complete history with a neutral eye, you will see that Muslims on average did not have religious bigotry as compared to for example the Christians in Europe. Interestingly even today, there are more Jews in Ahmedinajad's Iran(20,000-30,000) than say in India (around 6,000). What is to be noted here is that even though thousands of Jews from India migrated to Israel for whatever reasons, the Iranian Jews choose to stay in Iran. 

So certainly, it doesn't seem to be a muslim-jewish conflict here.

Even the Palestine-Israel struggle was a Arab-Israeli conflict until the 80s. Arafat, Nasser and other Arab leaders never gave it a religious tinge. It was a fight against Zionism not Judaism. It was only post 80s when groups like Hizbulla and Hamas came about. So the narrative of this being a Muslim-Jewish conflict (Which it is not btw) is quite recent.

Ironically, it was the Israeli govt. that supported the growth of HAMAS so as to undercut the influence of a secular Arafat and his PLO

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## fallstuff

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> I have wondred for years and still do is this hate of Muslems for the Jews because of the plight of the palestinian people or is it simply racial an religious biggotry. Guess it could be some of both.



The conflict between European Christian and Jews go back at least a thousand years. Jews were evicted and slaughtered by almost every European nation.

The conflict between Jews and Muslims, mainly Arabs is about 60-65 years old and manufactured solely by an European country, UK.

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## afriend

Flotilla activists attacked israeli soldiers and got their *** kicked..!! Typical terrorists style.. fingiring first.. and getting it back.. and then crying out loud of injustice. Hmm.. very unfortunate.!!!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

off topic, but i found this interesting


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## Abu Zolfiqar

afriend said:


> Flotilla activists attacked israeli soldiers and got their *** kicked..!! Typical terrorists style.. fingiring first.. and getting it back.. and then crying out loud of injustice. Hmm.. very unfortunate.!!!



you called them activists and terrorists in 2 different sentences. So which is it?

And it was israelis who stormed their boat after being air dropped. What the hell do ya expect? They'll sit down and ask them to join for cup of tea?


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## gambit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you called them activists and terrorists in 2 different sentences. So which is it?
> 
> And it was israelis who stormed their boat after being air dropped. What the hell do ya expect? *They'll sit down and ask them to join for cup of tea?*


Nope...Just comply like the other five ships did...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

the other ships were not stormed; the other ships were not under threat. This one was, because clearly the postures on the part of the israelis were not ''friendly''

interestingly enough, the Turkish flag was in CLEAR sight. Turkiye happens (happened?) to be an ally of israil, despite withering relations.

Do you REALLY think that the commandos were justified? Do I REALLY need to remind you that they killed 9 un-armed activists?


israil is not being out of character when it always acts as the poor victim here. 


And it would be prudent for the USA to stop stabbing itself in the foot for a country that was never held accountable for the USS Liberty incident 


(or do you also justify that incident as well )

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the other ships were not stormed; the other ships were not under threat. This one was, because clearly the postures on the part of the israelis were not ''friendly''
> 
> interestingly enough, the Turkish flag was in CLEAR sight. Turkiye happens (happened?) to be an ally of israil, despite withering relations.
> 
> Do you REALLY think that the commandos were justified? Do I REALLY need to remind you that they killed 9 un-armed activists?
> 
> 
> israil is not being out of character when it always acts as the poor victim here.
> 
> 
> And it would be prudent for the USA to stop stabbing itself in the foot for a country that was never held accountable for the USS Liberty incident
> 
> 
> (or do you also justify that incident as well )


I 

I dont know how Israel is going to be able to allow ship loads of weapons to shipped into Gaza. If I was them I would not even if it meant an all out middle east war. Of course that might be what these people want.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

where were these ''weapons''

it was a humanitarian boat!!! Apparently cement and sugar can be used to make explosives 


God forbid the Palestinians take aid to rebuild what is habitually destroyed by israilys!!!


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## gambit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> the other ships were not stormed; the other ships were not under threat. This one was, because clearly the postures on the part of the israelis were not ''friendly''


You are not being logical here. The other five ships were not 'stormed' because they complied peacefully.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> interestingly enough, the Turkish flag was in CLEAR sight. Turkiye happens (happened?) to be an ally of israil, despite withering relations.


It does not matter what flag was displayed. A drug runner can use a Canadian flag for all we care. We will board his boat or sink it.


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## gambit

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> where were these ''weapons''


How would you know if a boat was a drug runner unless you board and search it? And if you are wrong, issue an apology and let the boat go. If you are correct, then...



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it was a humanitarian boat!!!


Does not matter. This is funny. Apparently you have no problems accepting at face value any label when it comes to the Palestinians.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Apparently cement and sugar can be used to make explosives


How do you know if the cargo is cement and foodstuff unless you inspect it?



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> God forbid the Palestinians take aid to rebuild what is habitually destroyed by israilys!!!


Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there were no blockade then. Care to explain the rockets?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gambit said:


> You are not being logical here. The other five ships were not 'stormed' because they complied peacefully



i dont remember hearing anything about shots being fired from Mavi Marmara

things only got hostile when commandos were air-dropped and were getting the goats thrashed out of them 

and the thrashing was 100% justified. Those were international waters




> It does not matter what flag was displayed. A drug runner can use a Canadian flag for all we care. We will board his boat or sink it.



if territorily they are YOUR waters, you are within that right

such was not the case


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## Abu Zolfiqar

gambit said:


> How would you know if a boat was a drug runner unless you board and search it? And if you are wrong, issue an apology and let the boat go. If you are correct, then...



the boat had already been cleared to depart Turkiye after checks

read the PM Erdogan's statement the subsequent day



> Does not matter. This is funny. Apparently you have no problems accepting at face value any label when it comes to the Palestinians.



I have no problems condeming israily for an action that was illegal. In fact, it was a blessing in disguise. israil is now under pressure to end the blockade, though they conveniently have opened Rafah border

of course the Americans would pat israil on the shoulder, even though they killed 9 activists (and even bombed your USS Liberty to smithereens back in the mid 60s)



> How do you know if the cargo is cement and foodstuff unless you inspect it?



i was alluding to the fact that israil considers sugar and cement as ''war supplies''

they dont want Palestinians to get cement because they dont want them to rebuild. Why? Because they are expanding on their illegal settlements, which are against international law




> Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there were no blockade then. Care to explain the rockets?



withdrew my ***. They pushed back but still control the ports. Gaza and West Bank are still completely seperated. It is definately unsustainable, and its sad to see US constantly being suckered and bullied.

rockets will most likely continue, and israily will likely continue its policy of collective punishment. Vicious cycle.








p.s. I also blame the divisions between HAMAS and Fatah. That has also been very counter-productive towards Palestinian Nationalism and Nationhood. I pray for the day that they unite and work together towards a free Palestine, free from israil occupation.


















even if force is required.


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## Solomon2

It no longer appears that anyone continues to claim that that the Israeli soldiers who boarded the boats were committing an act of aggression; regardless of the politics, it was known that these soldiers were on a mission of peace but were the intended victims of a premeditated attack. 

Yet where is the Pakistani who is willing to condemn such a calumny? The very calumny that titles this post?

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## TambaKhu

^^^

It was inevitable. I knew since the beginning that there would be a big halla-hoo but as ever, ultimately the world will come to terms with it that Israel has the rights to do whats in their best national defense interest.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> It no longer appears that anyone continues to claim that that the Israeli soldiers who boarded the boats were committing an act of aggression; regardless of the politics, it* was known that these soldiers were on a mission of peace *but were the intended victims of a premeditated attack.



 Yeah raiding a turkish ship carrying AID and activist frm 44 countries including jews... some even frm israel in international waters? thts really peaceful... thts why we hear asrahellis shot an activist before landing on the deck... and afterwards killed 9 people and injured several and siezed the cameras n stuff so tht the real footage of wat happened never could be AIRED?

Ur peace smells like crap.




> Yet where is the Pakistani who is willing to condemn such a calumny? The very calumny that titles this post?



Calm down israheli hitler... ur the nazis of this century ... killers of messengers and fitnas.


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## sfo

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah raiding a turkish ship carrying AID and activist frm 44 countries including jews... some even frm israel in international waters? thts really peaceful... thts why we hear asrahellis shot an activist before landing on the deck... and afterwards killed 9 people and injured several and siezed the cameras n stuff so tht the real footage of wat happened never could be AIRED?
> 
> Ur peace smells like crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calm down israheli hitler... ur the nazis of this century ... killers of messengers and fitnas.



You are forgetting that People who attacked Mumbai also come in *FISHING * boats.

If Indian coast guard are proactive like Israels, These brainwashed terrorist could have been dead in ocean.


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## TambaKhu

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Calm down israheli hitler*... ur the nazis of this century ... killers of messengers and fitnas.



Chill dude. Lets not get personal.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

sfo said:


> You are forgetting that People who attacked Mumbai also come in *FISHING * boats.
> 
> If Indian coast guard are proactive like Israels, These brainwashed terrorist could have been dead in ocean.



Wat a comparison... u should get a NOBEL PRIZE for this awesome piece of intellect.
Compairing 10 terrorists to more then 400 peace activist frm 44 countries with AID.... wOw....
Gandhi u lose.... ur peace mantra is now war mantra.

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## Aslan

sfo said:


> You are forgetting that People who attacked Mumbai also come in *FISHING * boats.
> 
> If Indian coast guard are proactive like Israels, These brainwashed terrorist could have been dead in ocean.



How smart of you to portray your stupidity on an international forum, welcome to PDF. ANd thank you for the joke of a comparison.


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## sfo

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wat a comparison... u should get a NOBEL PRIZE for this awesome piece of intellect.
> Compairing 10 terrorists to more then *400 peace activist* frm 44 countries with AID.... wOw....
> Gandhi u lose.... ur peace mantra is now war mantra.



How you know they are peace activist and what they have loaded in the ship. Some terrorists might be pretending as peace activist.

Unlike other country Israel is very proactive otherwise they can't survive surrounded by hostile nations. So many leaders publicly voiced to wipe out Israel.


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## Solomon2

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah raiding a -


"Raiding" is just what it was _called_, not what it_ was_. 



> turkish ship carrying AID and activist frm 44 countries -


Oh, you think everyone on board supported the militants willingly?



> really peaceful... thts why we hear asrahellis shot an activist before landing on the deck -


Repetition of disproved charges.

So we have jeering and denial from the name-calling self-proclaimed "nationalist" who disinvited me from visiting the country. * And you other Pakistanis, are you willing to let his words stand, unchallenged, as the Voice of Pakistan?*


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> "Raiding" is just what it was _called_, not what it_ was_.




Well Hijacking ,.... who does tht sound? 



> Oh, you think everyone on board supported the militants willingly?



I dont know maybe 44 countries and there hundreds of people including israeli jews supported them or not...but they certainly didnt support israhelli attrocities on Gaza.



> Repetition of disproved charges.



Wat abt the weapons of mass destruction tht israhell found on the ship?
Thw massacre of 9 people?the siezure of cameras n other stuff to seal the truth?



> So we have jeering and denial from the name-calling self-proclaimed "nationalist" who disinvited me from visiting the country. And you other Pakistanis, are you willing to let his words stand, unchallenged, as the Voice of Pakistan?



Is derailing this thread and shifting focus frm my post my giving other irelavent links the best u can do? israeli?

I pitty u and other terrorism supportin brethern of urs.


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## Solomon2

^^^^^^
How can _*I *_be derailing this thread? It is entitled " Israel Hijacks Aid cargo, executes hostages - Pak journo, Talat Hussain taken hostage" and that is exactly the point I am discussing!

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## Meengla

It is incredible that there are STILL people justifying Israel's attack on the Flotilla after it has been globally acknowledged to be a disaster for Israel; even many Israeli bloggers at YNET, Haaretz, and JPost have conceded that this should not have been done.
Well, as this rather long thread shows, we all spoke the way wanted to speak and some of us remain proudly vindicated.

No amount of white-washing, even a UN-led 'investigation' is going to do undo the terrible beating Zionists taken. The power of the internet managed to beat the 'Megaphone' and Hasbara brigades.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> ^^^^^^
> How can _*I *_be derailing this thread? It is entitled " Israel Hijacks Aid cargo, executes hostages - Pak journo, Talat Hussain taken hostage" and that is exactly the point I am discussing!



Whose crying abt disinviting u? begging others to challenge wat i say? wats tht? ur birth righ on this forum?.... discuss the israeli state terrorism rather then complainin like a girl whose loly pop was taken away by some bully.


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## gambit

Iran cancels aid ship to Gaza


> TEHERAN - IRAN has cancelled sending an aid ship to the Gaza Strip which had been scheduled to set sail for the Palestinian territory on Sunday, state news agency Irna reported.
> 
> 'The trip is not going to happen,' Hossein Sheikholeslam, secretary general of the International Conference for the Support of the Palestinian Intifada, an Iranian body set up by parliament, told reporters on Thursday, Irna said.


I think the cancellation is because North Korea called Iran and request more aid and advice on how to oppress the citizenry. Or may be it is the other way around.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Meengla said:


> Again, you are evading the issue of timing. Those 1 million Jews were 'run out' around the time of the creation of Israel. Considering that they had lived in Muslim lands for hundreds of years, it is fair to assume that their running-out had at least something to do with their 'choice' to make the 'Aaliyah'? The proof of Aaliya or willing-migration is that it has been happening since 1948--the recent influx of USSR Jews is a good example--*tells me that most of these Jewish 'expulsion' was a result of intentional migration to the 'Promised Land'. *
> Compare that with the Palestinians--they had no where to go except the refugee camps and life of second-class citizens. Would they have 'migrated' by choice? No. They were forced out.



Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries :: Middle East Quarterly
The Jews had a choice die or leave.

Considering how many Arabs are still left in Isreal the Arabs had a choice. As was pointed out many of the jews were wealthy in arab countries but the were perscuted tilll they left.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wat a comparison... u should get a NOBEL PRIZE for this awesome piece of intellect.
> Compairing 10 terrorists to more then 400 peace activist frm 44 countries with AID.... wOw....
> Gandhi u lose.... ur peace mantra is now war mantra.



I kind of think he has a point,, how do you know what is on the boats if you dont check.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> I kind of think he has a point,, how do you know what is on the boats if you dont check.



Wat a point my indian american frnd... wow u deserve one too.... 10 terrorists on a zodiac compaired to 400-500 PEACE activists on a Turkish ship with AID and media people whose ship gets raided in INTERNATIONAL WATERs and 9 people get MASSACRED?

WOW U DESERVE CLAPPIN


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Wat a point my indian american frnd... wow u deserve one too.... 10 terrorists on a zodiac compaired to 400-500 PEACE activists on a Turkish ship with AID and media people whose ship gets raided in INTERNATIONAL WATERs and 9 people get MASSACRED?
> 
> WOW U DESERVE CLAPPIN



How do you know they are all peace activist, how do you know they are not a cover for ships bring in ship loads of posion gas or biolgical weapons.


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## Xeric

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> How do you know they are all peace activist, how do you know they are not a cover for ships bring in ship loads of posion gas or biolgical weapons.



Half a thousand 'terrorists', take along media from all over the world, carries the flag of a sovereign country, publicize its motives and aim round the globe before beginning the journey (ever heard of stealth, covertness and surprise - the most inalienable requirement of a terrorist attack or illegal transfer of weapons) and most importantly the flotilla had nationals from numerous countries (a few of whom are known for their anti-terror policies) and you tell us how would one know if they were carrying 'poison gas' or 'BWs' 

Are you stupid or what..?


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## Jigs

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> How do you know they are all peace activist, how do you know they are not a cover for ships bring in ship loads of posion gas or biolgical weapons.



Because Turkey which was one of the first nations to recognize Israel as a state and take in thousands of Jews during WW2 is now trying to smuggle poisonous gas and biological weapons. Since Turkey has biological weapons and all. I am sorry but read what you wrote over again. It came out really stupid. 

The ships were checked in Turkey at the port. Just like every ship that enters and leaves Turkey is checked.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Jigs said:


> Because Turkey which was one of the first nations to recognize Israel as a state and take in thousands of Jews during WW2 is now trying to smuggle poisonous gas and biological weapons. Since Turkey has biological weapons and all. I am sorry but read what you wrote over again. It came out really stupid.
> 
> The ships were checked in Turkey at the port. Just like every ship that enters and leaves Turkey is checked.



I am sure Israel can trust the lives of million of Israelis to turkey...How would Israel even know its the same boats.


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## SpArK

*Report: Israel seizes oxygen machines donated to PA*​

Seven machines donated by Norwegian agency confiscated en route to PA over chance generators attached could be used for purposes other than medical treatment, Ma'an reports.







_A Palestinian boy lays in a bed next to a cooling fan in the intensive care unit at the Shifa hospital in Gaza City.



_


Israel confiscated seven oxygen machines en route to hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza based on the claim that there was a chance the generators attached to the machines would not be used for medical purposes, Palestinian news agency Ma'an reported Saturday.


According to Ma'an, the Ramallah-based health ministry said that the generators, which were donated to the Palestinian Authority by a Norwegian development agency, were seized by Israeli officials despite the fact that only one machine was bound for Gaza.


The generators "came under the category of possible use for non-medical purposes" if they were delivered to southern Gaza, the Palestinian health ministry said in a statement, adding that the six other machines were bound for government hospitals in the northern Gaza, inducing the European Hospital in Gaza City, the Rafdieyah hospital in Nablus, and other facilities in Ramallah and Hebron.

The Ministry of Health appealed to the Norwegian Development Agency, which supplied the machines, and asked that they intervene and demand the release of the equipment at the soonest possible date, Ma'an reported.

*"Any delay in obtaining the medical equipment will negatively affect the health of patients," the statement concluded.
*



Report: Israel seizes oxygen machines donated to PA - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


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## Jigs

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> I am sure Israel can trust the lives of million of Israelis to turkey...How would Israel even know its the same boats.



Maybe every single nation should do the same. Lets all raid and kill people on ships if they don't submit instead of escorting them to our shores and checking their boats. There are rules and procedures in place sir. You do not send commandos to raid ships in international waters that fly sovereign flags. Unless your Israel because unguided rockets with no warheads means you can do anything you want since you have all cards in place. That means you get to do your own investigations on your own crimes. Also have nuclear weapons(refuse NPT signing) and sending assassins into other nations with fake passports to murder people. Oh and you don't have to answer to the U.N. since the U.S. just comes in and will just veto it all. Isn't that just awesome.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Jigs said:


> Maybe every single nation should do the same. Lets all raid and kill people on ships if they don't submit instead of escorting them to our shores and checking their boats. There are rules and procedures in place sir. You do not send commandos to raid ships in international waters that fly sovereign flags. Unless your Israel because unguided rockets with no warheads means you can do anything you want since you have all cards in place. That means you get to do your own investigations on your own crimes. Also have nuclear weapons(refuse NPT signing) and sending assassins into other nations with fake passports to murder people. Oh and you don't have to answer to the U.N. since the U.S. just comes in and will just veto it all. Isn't that just awesome.



The entire purpose of these ships were a confrontation with Israel.
While these ships did not have weapons, they will sooner or later if Israel permits the ships to land,,,they are welcome to land in Egypt and transport the supplies to Gazza. 

The ten brave Isrealis that boarding this ship had a choice of fighting or dieing when they were attacked.

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## gambit

Jigs said:


> Maybe every single nation should do the same. Lets all raid and kill people on ships if they don't submit instead of escorting them to our shores and checking their boats. There are rules and procedures in place sir.


There is no 'may be' about it. Rules and procedures are *ALREADY* in place all over the world, called 'territorial waters'. You might want to look up what a visitor, hostile or friendly, is supposed to do.



Jigs said:


> You do not send commandos to raid ships in international waters that fly sovereign flags.


Of course you can. Being in international waters does not render one automatic immunity from boarding...

Crimes Under Flags of Convenience | YaleGlobal Online Magazine


> In June, 2002, *French commandos boarded the Cambodian-registered freighter Winner in international waters* in the Atlantic amid an exchange of gunfire that injured one of the 12 crew members. The troops seized more than one tonne of Colombian cocaine worth well over $100 million in a cargo that was registered as scrap iron destined for Bilbao in Spain. Officials said that the raid was the result of 15-months of surveillance involving U.S., French, Spanish and Greek authorities.


If there is no reasonable justification, then a boarding is an act of piracy. But if the justification is for search and seizure of contraband, be it illegal drugs or missiles, then a boarding is legal. Running a blockade is considered a hostile act and a boarding is legal.


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## Meengla

The blockade itself was cruel, inhuman, and illegal. Can you imagine that Israel has a list of 'allowed' products for population of 1.5 MILLION people? Now Israelis are changing the list to the list of 'blocked' list.
Something was terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. Israelis and their inhuman supporters like to crow that they completely left Gaza but they conveniently forget that they started to strangulate Gazans for voting for Hamas. Kassams were a reaction to this blockade.
But then...who believes the Israeli propaganda anymore except Fox-News-watching Americans and some Indian-bloggers?


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## gambit

Meengla said:


> The blockade itself was cruel, inhuman, and illegal.


You can call the blockade 'cruel' and 'inhuman' if you like, but it was not 'illegal'. Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there was no blockade then. Care to explain the Hamas rocket attacks?



Meengla said:


> Can you imagine that Israel has a list of 'allowed' products for population of 1.5 MILLION people? Now Israelis are changing the list to the list of 'blocked' list.
> Something was terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. Israelis and their inhuman supporters like to crow that they completely left Gaza but they conveniently forget that they started to strangulate Gazans for voting for Hamas. Kassams were a reaction to this blockade.
> But then...who believes the Israeli propaganda anymore except Fox-News-watching Americans and some Indian-bloggers?


No...The blockade was a response to the rockets.

Understanding the Gaza blockade - The Week


> How did the blockade begin?
> In 2006, Hamas won parliamentary elections in Gaza and, the next year, drove out Fatah in a bloody four-day civil war. Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israels right to exist, fired thousands of rockets into Israel, killing and wounding dozens of civilians and unnerving the population. Hamas also infuriated Israelis by refusing to return a kidnapped soldier, Gilad Shalit (see below), whom militants had abducted from an Israeli border post in 2006. In 2007, Israel imposed a full blockade.


So the blockade came two years *AFTER* Israel's withdrawal from Gaza.

We can and rightly should criticize Israel's list of 'contraband' and pressure Israel to revise/enlarge that list. But as long as Israel's right to a secure border is not assured by a competent authority in Gaza, the blockade is legitimate.


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## Rumporum

If Israel wanted to kill all of&#65279; them we would've done so. Israel can wipe Gaza from the face of the earth in 48 hours but it obviously hasn't done so. While Hamas and some other keep saying that they will wipe Israel off the face of the earth. 

What choice do we have but to keep a blockade on as long as Hamas is in power or until Hamas renounces violence and stops terrorism. I am also for lifting of the blockade BUT not at Hamas term I will not talk to anyone who doesn't even think/believe that I have a right to exist, and we will not negotiate or compromise to terrorists period. Additionally there is no humanitarian catastrophe going on in Gaza as 
being put forward by Al-Jazeera and others.


If we start to talk to Hamas now we will end up with who are the good taliban and who are the bad taliban scenario that's going on in Pakistan. Its like saying Pakistan should have a political settlement with the the Taliban. That said now with which Taliban that's another point that one needs figuring out.


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## Rumporum

Meengla said:


> The blockade itself was cruel, inhuman, and illegal. Can you imagine that Israel has a list of 'allowed' products for population of 1.5 MILLION people? Now Israelis are changing the list to the list of 'blocked' list.
> Something was terribly wrong. Terribly wrong. Israelis and their inhuman supporters like to crow that they completely left Gaza but they conveniently forget that they started to strangulate Gazans for voting for Hamas. Kassams were a reaction to this blockade.
> But then...who believes the Israeli propaganda anymore except Fox-News-watching Americans and some Indian-bloggers?



There is no Humanitarian Catastrophe as being put forward. in the media.If we lift the blockade and give Hamas a free hand then in 1 week I can tell you that Ashkelon and Sderot will come under Artillery fire with Iranian made weapons and both these towns will be gone. 

Has anyone not heard of suicide bombings that these guys were up to earlier that is during and before they came to power ...the problem is when you put bombs in buses, cafe's, restaurants and public places, a lot of people in Israel have no sympathy for anyone who supports Hamas....in any form or way. West Bank is peaceful has anyone fired any rockets at us from there... NO and we haven't also done anything retaliatory either. 

If Hamas really care about their people then why cant they renounce violence, remember it was Hamas that destroyed Fateh (Killed off Fateh) in Gaza.


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## Meengla

My understanding is that the blockade came after Hamas won the elections in a free and fair manner. Also, you guys cannot untie Gaza from the W.Bank. The latter is in a better condition now under Fayad but, back in 2005-2007, Israelis made the life of even the W.Bank Palestinians hell by using various means.

Hamas has repeated many times to call for a 'Hudna' or peace at least 20 years if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders. How many counter proposals Israelis have? Please don't give me the crap about the 'generous' offer to Arafat in Camp David 2000. Israel does not even say much about the Arab League offer of 2002? Why? Because Israelis are colonialists above all.

Soo....what we have are words versus actions: Hamas' Charter may not be recognizing Israel even though Hamas is going to be forced by the Arab League should Israel pullback to 1967. BUT...cunning and cruel Israel, without so much saying it, are actually DOING an act of slow genocide by their Settlement policies. *Words versus actions.* Which is worse?

Israeli cunningness is only possible because of their near-absolute hold over American Congress and media. They lie repeatedly--learned well from Goebels, I am sure--to create facts. But more and more no one is buying their crap. The Gaza Flotilla attack is another debacle for Israel.

This boast about wiping anyone off the face of the Earth is meaningless in the modern world. Both Israelis and the Palestinians are a reality and they must learn to live with each other. Israeli slow-genocide of the Palestinians show Israeli true intentions so far but, *if one goes by Erdogan's words ('Jerusalem and Palestinians will never be forgotten by the Muslim world and the Turks', paraphrased) then Israeli game is coming to an end.*

*Finally, do you guys have any concrete, immediate proposals for peace? I think either pullback to the 1967 border or even your FM Liberman's 'population-land-swap' plan is doable? Or the Settlers have you too much by the balls to effect any change?*


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Meengla said:


> My understanding is that the blockade came after Hamas won the elections in a free and fair manner. Also, you guys cannot untie Gaza from the W.Bank. The latter is in a better condition now under Fayad but, back in 2005-2007, Israelis made the life of even the W.Bank Palestinians hell by using various means.
> 
> Hamas has repeated many times to call for a 'Hudna' or peace at least 20 years if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders. How many counter proposals Israelis have? Please don't give me the crap about the 'generous' offer to Arafat in Camp David 2000. Israel does not even say much about the Arab League offer of 2002? Why? Because Israelis are colonialists above all.
> 
> Soo....what we have are words versus actions: Hamas' Charter may not be recognizing Israel even though Hamas is going to be forced by the Arab League should Israel pullback to 1967. BUT...cunning and cruel Israel, without so much saying it, are actually DOING an act of slow genocide by their Settlement policies. *Words versus actions.* Which is worse?
> 
> Israeli cunningness is only possible because of their near-absolute hold over American Congress and media. They lie repeatedly--learned well from Goebels, I am sure--to create facts. But more and more no one is buying their crap. The Gaza Flotilla attack is another debacle for Israel.
> 
> This boast about wiping anyone off the face of the Earth is meaningless in the modern world. Both Israelis and the Palestinians are a reality and they must learn to live with each other. Israeli slow-genocide of the Palestinians show Israeli true intentions so far but, *if one goes by Erdogan's words ('Jerusalem and Palestinians will never be forgotten by the Muslim world and the Turks', paraphrased) then Israeli game is coming to an end.*
> 
> *Finally, do you guys have any concrete, immediate proposals for peace? I think either pullback to the 1967 border or even your FM Liberman's 'population-land-swap' plan is doable? Or the Settlers have you too much by the balls to effect any change?*



Isreal is never going to do any thing that will result in their destruction as far as peace proposals go....Arabs and Palestinians are going to have to agree to no attacks on Israel and Israel is going to have to agree to give up land but not back to the 1967 borders.


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## afriend

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> you called them activists and terrorists in 2 different sentences. So which is it?
> 
> And it was israelis who stormed their boat after being air dropped. What the hell do ya expect? They'll sit down and ask them to join for cup of tea?



Then what do you expect israelis to do.. sit there and get their *** kicked? They should have surrendred peacefully if at all it was a peacefull mission..!! I think they wanted to create some martyrs for making israel evil..!!! innocent lives lost for nothing..!!!


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## gambit

Meengla said:


> My understanding is that the blockade came after Hamas won the elections in a free and fair manner.


Whether Hamas was elected in 'fair manner'......or not is not the issue here. Saying this is an attempt to distract attention.



Meengla said:


> Also, you guys cannot untie Gaza from the W.Bank.


Then using Gaza as a war staging ground legitimized the blockade.



Meengla said:


> Because Israelis are colonialists above all.


Then why did Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05? If Israel is a 'colonialist' then conquering, not merely annexation, Gaza as part of Israeli proper make more sense than unilateral withdrawal or even negotiation.



Meengla said:


> Soo....what we have are words versus actions: Hamas' Charter may not be recognizing Israel even though Hamas is going to be forced by the Arab League should Israel pullback to 1967.


The Arab League does not control Israel. Iran does.


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## sparklingway

gambit at least do not try to sympathize with Israel's colonial mindset and brutal expansion.

You cannot deny the following:-

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## gambit

sparklingway said:


> gambit at least do not try to sympathize with Israel's colonial mindset and brutal expansion.


No 'sympathy'. Just understanding. You cannot post those pics without the appropriate context, which is that they are territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states. The West Bank and Gaza is used to wage a war. The Arab lost. A low intensity guerrilla/terror campaign is installed. Land is lost. Then Israel is blamed for refusing to commit to a two-states solution.

After Israel and Egypt made peace in a 'land-for-peace' swap, a portion of that land became a buffer zone between the two states. So before any similar agreement that would result in a two-states solution, Israel and the Arab states must exercise similar absolute authority over their sides to assure each other of their rights to border security. Anwar Sadat was publicly assassinated in a parade for his overture to Israel. I am old enough to have watched the blurry news video where men leaped off trucks and shoot their weapons into the audience stand. But even Sadat died, Egypt continued to honor its side of that peace treaty. That is the absolute sovereignty that *EVERY* state is supposed to demonstrate in order to earn respect from other states. Mexico is rightly earning contempt, not just from US, but from the rest of the civilized world for its inability to exercise absolute sovereignty inside its own borders. We do not see the requisite type of sovereignty happening with the Palestinians where Hamas and Fatah gunned each other down in the streets.


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## Solomon2

sparklingway said:


> gambit at least do not try to sympathize with Israel's colonial mindset and brutal expansion.
> 
> You cannot deny the following:-



You do know, don't you, that the division of the middle east after WWI involved a dual obligation? The Jews couldn't deprive the non-Jews of their civil rights within Palestine, nor could the non-Jews deprive the Jews of their rights outside Palestine. While 20% of Israel remains Arab, save for a handful of Jews in Syria the nearby Arab states have kicked all the Jews out. 

So you see your map is only partially accurate. If you want a truer picture, you have to expand your map to include the areas of the middle east where Jews were deprived of property and re-color areas within Israel where Arabs retained theirs after independence - as well as demonstrating Israel's moderation by showing how much it gave back to the Arabs after its conquests in 1956, 1967, and 1973.

***

Yet this brings up a larger question, sparklingway. Why do you not discuss the issue at hand, and attempt to divert attention away from the legality of Israel's actions and the terrorist acts of the militant Turks who attacked the Israeli boarding party? Is it because you are not willing to admit that it is ever possible for a Muslim to be justly attacked and killed by a non-Muslim?


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## sparklingway

gambit said:


> No 'sympathy'. Just understanding. You cannot post those pics without the appropriate context, which is that they are territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states. The West Bank and Gaza is used to wage a war. The Arab lost. A low intensity guerrilla/terror campaign is installed. Land is lost. Then Israel is blamed for refusing to commit to a two-states solution.



Does this mean that Israel will draw back its expansion if Palestinians lay down arms and settle for a piece agreement? Will the Israelis allow Palestinians to occupy and claim as their own the land they have occupied now? Clearly not. Hence this is no "appropriate context" and in no way "territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states".



> After Israel and Egypt made peace in a 'land-for-peace' swap, a portion of that land became a buffer zone between the two states. So before any similar agreement that would result in a two-states solution, Israel and the Arab states must exercise similar absolute authority over their sides to assure each other of their rights to border security. Anwar Sadat was publicly assassinated in a parade for his overture to Israel. I am old enough to have watched the blurry news video where men leaped off trucks and shoot their weapons into the audience stand. But even Sadat died, Egypt continued to honor its side of that peace treaty. That is the absolute sovereignty that *EVERY* state is supposed to demonstrate in order to earn respect from other states. Mexico is rightly earning contempt, not just from US, but from the rest of the civilized world for its inability to exercise absolute sovereignty inside its own borders. We do not see the requisite type of sovereignty happening with the Palestinians where Hamas and Fatah gunned each other down in the streets.



This has absolutely no importance whatsoever to Israel's colonial occupations.

I have never, ever met a humanist or a peace activist who does not term this as colonial barbarism. It is plane and simple. I have a great amount of respect for what the people of Israel have achieved in the world of science, in the world of state integrity and military might but I have no respect whatsoever for inhumane colonials who occupy lands and then deem the fighters as terrorists.

I hope you can understand what I mean as well.




Solomon2 said:


> You do know, don't you, that the division of the middle east after WWI involved a dual obligation? The Jews couldn't deprive the non-Jews of their civil rights within Palestine, nor could the non-Jews deprive the Jews of their rights outside Palestine. While 20&#37; of Israel remains Arab, save for a handful of Jews in Syria the nearby Arab states have kicked all the Jews out.



This does not mean that Israel has the same right. Intolerant and bigoted Arab states shouldn't mean an intolerant and bigoted Israel. 



> So you see your map is only partially accurate. If you want a truer picture, you have to expand your map to include the areas of the middle east where Jews were deprived of property and re-color areas within Israel where Arabs retained theirs after independence - as well as demonstrating Israel's moderation by showing how much it gave back to the Arabs after its conquests in 1956, 1967, and 1973.



How big a portion of land will be re-coloured? Not as much as the land that was occupied. Please go ahead and change it to historical accuracy. Debate should be objective, and facts should be objectively and historically true. I did not mean in any way to exaggerate the claims and I do not claim to have extremely deep knowledge of the conflict.



> Yet this brings up a larger question, sparklingway. Why do you not discuss the issue at hand, and attempt to divert attention away from the legality of Israel's actions and the terrorist acts of the militant Turks who attacked the Israeli boarding party?



Because I'm not convinced that the boarding party and the entire armed assault was in any way a super friendly act. I'll deem it an act of blatant injustice when I'm proven so and when I'm informed that the 9 people who died were posing life threatening danger. 9 civilians die and no IDF soldiers critically injured. 

Do not, I repeat do not twist my above stated words to state as if the state of Israel and the IDF were the victims here. It's been your habit to comment on the objectivity and accuracy of statements rather than accounts.



> Is it because you are not willing to admit that it is ever possible for a Muslim to be justly attacked and killed by a non-Muslim?



I'm highly agnostic. I deem killing any person regardless of faith as reprehensible. No person of logic and reason would deem killing 9 civilians as justified.


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## gambit

sparklingway said:


> Does this mean that Israel will draw back its expansion if Palestinians lay down arms and settle for a piece agreement? Will the Israelis allow Palestinians to occupy and claim as their own the land they have occupied now? *Clearly not.* Hence this is no "appropriate context" and in no way "territories taken as securities in an ongoing war against the Arab states".


Not? Then you need to explain why did Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and the peace treaty with Egypt which Egypt honored despite the murder of the Egyptian leader who dared to make such an agreement. For the former, there was virtually no guarantees of border security.



sparklingway said:


> This has absolutely no importance whatsoever to Israel's colonial occupations.


Of course it does. It goes to the crux of the issue, which is *WHO* is the competent guarantor of sovereignty and control over a territory that borders a country, any country. In the case of the Egypt-Israel peace treaty, we have two competent guarantor/administrators of an agreement. For the Gaza withdrawal, we have only one. Guess which situation never improved.



sparklingway said:


> *I have never, ever met a humanist or a peace activist who does not term this as colonial barbarism.* It is plane and simple.


Does not matter what they called the Jews and Israel. What matter is the reason why, which is the question: *WHO* is the competent guarantor of sovereignty and control over a territory that borders a country, any country? Peace does not have to be accompanied by friendship, although that is the more desirable state between two or more parties. Else you can call your neighbors all sort of names but as long as both of you are reasonably assured that neither will do harm to each other, you will co-exists in peace.


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## GUNNER

ANKARA, June 29, 2010 (AFP) - All but two of the nine Turks killed in an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship were shot more than once, and five died from bullet wounds to the head, according to forensic reports.

The reports were made available to AFP Tuesday by lawyers for the victims' families, who have petitioned Turkish prosecutors to investigate the May 31 bloodshed on the Turkish Mavi Marmara ferry.

The forensic examinations were carried out in Turkey by the government-run Forensic Institute.

"The findings make it clear the Israeli forces shot to kill the activists and not to overpower them," one of the lawyers, Yasin Divrak, told AFP.

*The nine volunteers were shot a total of 31 times*, according to the documents.

*The youngest victim, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan, a dual Turkish-US national, was shot five times, including twice in the head, his autopsy report said.*

A bullet that pierced his face was fired from close range, it said, adding he was hit also in the back of the head.

The forensic experts failed to detect other point-blank shots on the remaining victims.

All nine bodies had been washed before being brought to Turkey and their clothes were either blood-soaked or otherwise unfit for analysis, making it impossible to reach a conclusion on the ranges of most shots, according to the documents.

*Another victim, Ali Heyder Bengi, 39, was shot six times, including once in the abdomen, while Fahri Yildiz, 43, was hit by five bullets, among them a fatal one in the chest, according to the documents.*

Journalist Cevdet Kiliclar, 38, the web editor of the Islamist charity IHH that led the ill-fated campaign, was killed by a single bullet that hit him between the eyebrows, the report said.

Divrak drew attention to the autopsy of 61-year-old Ibrahim Bilgen, which included the discovery of a tiny bag containing pellets, still intact in his brain, which the report said was was fired from a hunting rifle.

"It is not a type of weapon that we have ever heard of," he said.

Three bullet wounds were also found in Bilgen's chest, back and hip.

Israel says its commandos used force after they were attacked with sticks and stabbed as soon as they landed on the Mavi Marmara, which was sailing in international waters. But the activists insist the troops opened fire as soon as they landed.


The bloody ending to the aid mission, which had aimed to break the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip, plunged ties between Turkey and Israel, once close allies, into deep crisis.

Turkey has dismissed a commission set up by Israel to investigate the raid, insisting for a UN-led international probe.


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## Solomon2

> This does not mean that Israel has the same right. Intolerant and bigoted Arab states shouldn't mean an intolerant and bigoted Israel.


What are you talking about? Israel absorbed almost all the Jews expelled from the Arab states; the Arab states whose leaders called upon the Arabs to depart from Israel (over 20% of whom did eventually vow allegiance to the Jewish State and return) are proud to deny citizenship to "Palestinians" out of sheer bigotry and the desire to employ them as a kind of weapon against Israel as a diversion from their own tyranny.



> Please go ahead and change it to historical accuracy. Debate should be objective, and facts should be objectively and historically true.


You're the one trying to argue that Israel possesses "colonial mindset and brutal expansion", so shouldn't you be the one producing evidence? 



> I did not mean in any way to exaggerate the claims and I do not claim to have extremely deep knowledge of the conflict.


Learning in depth does take time and effort, but you have both intelligence and modesty, so I'm sure you can do it.



> I'll deem it an act of blatant injustice when I'm proven so and when I'm informed that the 9 people who died were posing life threatening danger.


The Israeli videos are pretty damning. So are the pictures, if you can find the ones that don't have the militants' weapons photoshopped out of them.



> 9 civilians die and no IDF soldiers critically injured...No person of logic and reason would deem killing 9 civilians as justified.


Just because the militants weren't members of the Turkish armed forces doesn't mean their actions and intent were not violent and criminal, does it? Every bit of evidence available is that the Israelis fought back only after being attacked and that the use of deadly force was necessary because the only alternative was to accept kidnapping, mutilation, or murder. 



> It's been your habit to comment on the objectivity and accuracy of statements rather than accounts.


I'm not sure I understand you here. "Objectivity of _accounts?_" An account of an event is by definition subjective. 



> I'm highly agnostic. I deem killing any person regardless of faith as reprehensible.


And killing in self-defense while engaged in lawful, peaceful activities, do you deem that "reprehensible" as well?


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