# PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter



## Storm Force

India, Russia ink biggest-ever military deal

The above news will no doubt have rippled into Pakistans military head quarters.

The official signing of the joint development of a 5th gen fighter (a sPin off from PAK FA). 

With so much talk about FC20 in 2015 & possiblly more F16s from Norway or Europe post 2016 should the PAF not start to really push china on joining their JXX fifth gen fighter programme. 

Some PDF members are claiming the chinease are neck and neck with Russia on their own programme and will enter IOC at the same time around 2018 time frame.

IF THIS IS TRUE ????????

Rather than comitt $2 BILLION ON FC20 or $1 billion more on used early F16s wud it not be bet better use of limited resources to go to 

THUNDER ONLY as the main project

And spend $1 billion or $2 billion on joining JXX 

Surely one sqd of JXX in 2020 COSTING $2 billion will be better than 5 sdqs F16s or 3 of FC20 COSTING THE SAME...


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## Storm Force

Realistically by the the time the First FC20 enter PAF in 2015 THE fgfa COULD be only 2 -3 years away from IOC with IAF. 

Once PAF comits the $1.5 billion to buy 40+ fighters that money has gone on what will be PAFs frontline state of the ART FIGHTER FOR NEXT 20 YEARS..IE 2015-2035 AND i assume they will want more than just 40.... 

For this reason i would go Thunder 200+ 

Then striAght to JXX and Give FC20 A MISS esp if the gap between Thunder and FC20 is not large in tech terms. afterall both are essentially single engined multi role platforms. 

JXX will be a twin engined super stealth multi role fighter with vast range TVC and very small RCS and complete new senso fusion work. 

They will eat the IAF SU30MKI fleet and even scare the MMRCA TYPHOONS if IAF buys those too. 

FC20 will not give the numerically inferior PAF fleet a tech edge over mki or mmrca that it needs as the smaller air power.


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## Storm Force

Many people believe the below image to be a protrotype of the china JXX effort.

Chinese Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation

Any nation with a $2 trillion FOREX and already building FC20 class fighters can surely move into a FIFTH gen project sooner or later.

THE BIG QUESTION will PAF try to join the project as india has done with RUSSIA ON PAK FA


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## SEAL

T-50 Pak-fa is 10 years away, currently PAF is worried about LCA threat. 
Regarding inductions PAF goal is to induct 200 new fighter jets in the period of 2010-2015, after 2015 talks for 5th generation will start.


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## Storm Force

Raptor read the thread again.

The point is cyrstal clear let me highlight the point 

*Should could* PAF go striaght to JXX project and miss the FC20 induction completley as the FC20 is 5 years away and has the same role as the Thunder. ie single engined Multi role fighter

Esp in light of india,s massive comitment now formalised with Russia today for PAK FA project.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

It is extremely unlikely that the PAF will change its acquisition plans from purchasing the FC-20 and/or more F-16 Block 52's or a comparable existing Fighter, in favor of a yet to be operational J-XX.


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## Pfpilot

It makes no sense for Pakistan to go straight for 5th generation fighters, because Pakistan still has too many 3rd generation fighters. If Pakistan skipped the f-16s and j-10s, we'd have a squadron or two of j-xx and another couple of hundred mirage and f-7 fighters. The jf-17s can't be are be all and end all, they are great as a point defensive fighter at this point,, but in a strike role and an air superiority role, the j-10 and f-16s are far superior At this time it is far more logical to complete an overhaul of an aging PAF fleet instead of patching things up just to stand toe to toe with a free spending neighbor. Once Pakistan has replaced the older fighters and the j-10 and jf-17s are in service, then the PAF can take the next logical step and move ahead to the next generation.

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## Hulk

Pakistan and India follow entierly different way of purchasing the equipment. While India plans ahead in time and thinks for years ahead. Pakistan on the other hand looks more at current threat or recent future threat like 3 to 5 years. They have been very smart as well, we bought AWACS after years of lobbying planning etc. The moment the deal was made Pakistan got something similar from SWEDEN, pretty much in the same time as India.

So I guess when they will see in coming 3 to 5 years when PAK-FA will be possible, they will then start thinking about their options and buy something off the shelf.

I guess right now they are banking on China and trust me China will give them JXX when they make it.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

indianrabbit said:


> Pakistan and India follow entierly different way of purchasing the equipment. While India plans ahead in time and thinks for years ahead. Pakistan on the other hand looks more at current threat or recent future threat like 3 to 5 years. They have been very smart as well, we bought AWACS after years of lobbying planning etc. The moment the deal was made Pakistan got something similar from SWEDEN, pretty much in the same time as India.
> 
> So I guess when they will see in coming 3 to 5 years when PAK-FA will be possible, they will then start thinking about their options and buy something off the shelf.
> 
> I guess right now they are banking on China and trust me China will give them JXX when they make it.



You are correct that, in this case at least, the PAF and IAF have different strategies. India is looking to be a partner in the FGFA program and therefore acquire technology and know-how related to manufacturing a 5th Gen. Fighter. In order to accomplish that there is no option but to commit to the program years (perhaps decades, only time will tell) in advance.

The PAF on the other hand, if one is to go by the recent statement issued by the PAF ACM, is not looking to invest in China's 5th Gen. program since, to paraphrase his words, Pakistan does not have anything to offer in terms of fifth generation fighter know-how or technology. 

Obviously the other unsaid reason is related to financial issues - in the absence of providing technological input, one must put up a fair amount of money to fund or co-fund the R&D in order to become a partner, as India is doing. Pakistan is at the moment unable to do that, though it may change depending on how things develop WRT to the J-XX and the Pakistani economy in the next decade or so.

But just because the PAF has not announced a plan to invest in the development of the J-XX or something similar does not mean that it will not purchase the aircraft (or a comparable one) when it does become operational and if/when it is offered for export. So the PAF is not necessarily at a major disadvantage at this point WRT 5th Gen. technology just because India and Russia announced a partnership to develop one.


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## graphican

@Storm Force,

Your point doesn't even have a half logic in it. You could surly have disagreed to yourself if you had thought about and calculated the possible consequences of adopting the way you are suggesting. 

Our old fighters are living up their life and no matter how many JXX we procure, (which is by the way a hypothetical scenario), we wouldn't be able to defend against piling Indian squadrons until unless we do exactly what we are doing.

I don't have clear understanding of what PAF is upto, but I know one thing that whatever they are upto, they are upto for good!


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## conworldus

Don't worry guys. If the Russian 5th gen fighter enters service on time I will literally eat my own pants. Remember that Russia first invited China to join the program (way before India was even in the equation), but China declined. A deep reason is that China understands that a real 5th gen Russian fighter is in fact decades away and Russia has little to offer technologically to the 5th gen fighter program. Put the PAK-FA time frame around 2030 is more realistic. F-16 and FC-20 will be enough for Pakistan for the next 20 years.

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## Speeder 2

Storm Force said:


> Raptor read the thread again.
> 
> The point is cyrstal clear let me highlight the point
> 
> *Should could* PAF go striaght to JXX project and miss the FC20 induction completley as the FC20 is 5 years away and has the same role as the Thunder. ie single engined Multi role fighter
> 
> Esp in light of india,s massive comitment now formalised with Russia today for PAK FA project.



PAF *Shouldn't and couldn't * IMO.

It is because there will be a significant time gap and corresponding risks involved if it does so:

(assuming Indian 5th gen inducted about 10y from now), with whatever MMRC fighter IAF will get , EF or Rafale , together with its already inducted MKI, it can give consistent and real pressure on PAF&#180;s JF-17s in the next 10 year since they are at least 0,5 gen ahead. 
*
10 years (this is assuming that PAF will get J-XX right after 10years) or longer! This is the time gap and risk that PAF must cover .*

With FC20 and F16 advanced blocks, the gap and risk are more or less mitigated.

And don&#180;t get carried away by India&#180;s FGFA contract. A lot of things can happen during 10 years... 

But you see IAF at least hedged its bet - if something goes wrong with FGFA, it still has MKI and MMCA. Therefore, again , PAF should do the same going for the equivalents (FC20, F-16) meantime.

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## Myth_buster_1

Doesnt this guy has better things to do then bring back same topics that were discussed before. You think PAF had no idea of this news ahead of time? Mods kindly block this thread. Pointless and same old bickering.

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## monitor

current and near future threat for Paf is su-30mki mrca after 2020 fgfa .pakistan should start thinking about this threat .current threat like su-30mki/mrca may counter with combination of f-16 fc-20 and jf-17 but how could the fgfa ? only realistic option is j-xx.some kind of negotiation is necessary so that china can provide j-xx as soon as serial production started .


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## PAFAce

A fifth generation air force capability is one of four key areas that India has a head-start on Pakistan in, and in which Pakistan seems to be dragging its feet. The others are: space technology (both civilian and defensive), nuclear reactor technology (civilian and defensive) and a missile shield. We are currently doing a decent job of narrowing the gap India had managed on in the later 1990s and early 2000s in the defense field, but we must also _look ahead_.

As much as I don't appreciate the connotations of the thread starter, he has, nevertheless, identified a key issue. We are so content and happy with the JF-17s and FC-20s that we've failed to realize that, whatever the expected time frame of the PAK-FA is, India still has a significant jump on us. I would wholeheartedly support any move by Pakistan to divert funds from our F-16 and JF-17 procurement plans towards the famous (or infamous) J-XX. If not, at least we should try and lobby the US for the F-35.

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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> A fifth generation air force capability is one of four key areas that India has a head-start on Pakistan in, and in which Pakistan seems to be dragging its feet. The others are: space technology (both civilian and defensive), nuclear reactor technology (civilian and defensive) and a missile shield. We are currently doing a decent job of narrowing the gap India had managed on in the later 1990s and early 2000s in the defense field, but we must also _look ahead_.
> 
> As much as I don't appreciate the connotations of the thread starter, he has, nevertheless, identified a key issue. We are so content and happy with the JF-17s and FC-20s that we've failed to realize that, whatever the expected time frame of the PAK-FA is, India still has a significant jump on us. I would wholeheartedly support any move by Pakistan to divert funds from our F-16 and JF-17 procurement plans towards the famous (or infamous) J-XX. If not, at least we should try and lobby the US for the F-35.



Agreed that India has a head start in that but the major resitriction for PAF is that aviation industry is still in its nascency. We have just started mastering 4th Gen so it makes no sense to burden oneself with things that are too difficult to manage. Russia and China had been manufactring aircrafts from ages now and still they have tough times in developing a 5th gen. Raptor project was envisioned in early 80s while materialized in 2000s so even for US, it wasn't an easy task (look at JSF, for example). So first things first, get the job at hand done well to enhance the design and systems understanding. PAF is still at the initial end of a long learning curve. The best thing would be to get done with JFT as decently as possible, and then get FC-20 under ToT (As CAC is using J-10B as a testbed for JXX systems) to develop a knowhow of 5th Gen technologies. when done with these two things decently. Then PAF will be on some footing to think about something like 5th Gen. But i am looking around 2025+ for this thing not earlier than this

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## siegecrossbow

One step at a time.

I think the Pakistani airforce is not simply interested in acquiring whole planes but something akin to the JF-17 joint venture. The project has been beneficial to the aviation industry of both China and Pakistan. I think it is vital that Pakistan absorb the knowledge of 4.5th gen plane assembly (J-10B) before moving on to the J-XX.

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## Creder

T-50 has just been signed, its not like the fighter is out in the field..it is a "possible" threat in the future. Possible because the program has just initialized, who knows what its gonna run into in the next decade..10 years is a lot of time mate, did you guys think that the LCA would still be awaiting IOC in 2011 (2011 cuz we are pretty much there)..anyways that just goes to show how these kind of programs are really prone to just so many variables that could effect its progress.

And what of the final product once its operational ? its a totally different thing to draw it out on the paper but its a different story as to how it is actually going to perform ?

You would have us commit to an expensive a$$ stealth fighter project for a future probability, every other nation is now gearing up for 5th gen planes..why should we limit our choices..If T-50 manages to come to life then its well and good, we can go for the Chinese option then.

Also its not that PAF is always looking at mitigating immediate dangers, they do plan long term however, they have to work with a very limited budget and they have to make calculated decisions.

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## PAFAce

Hasnain009, I am not talking about engineering a Fifth Gen aircraft on our own, I'm not stupid. I am saying that we must start making moves in that direction. Compare Pakistan's aero industry to India's and you'll realize the gap isn't as huge as the case with India-China, still India is moving in that direction. We must too.

Creder, please do not purposely underestimate and ridicule the Indian PAK-FA program. It doesn't help. It is not just a "possible" future threat, it is a very much "probable" future threat. And this isn't the LCA, it's a Russian design. I would rather we overestimate the threat than underestimate it for the sole purpose of "feeling good". Lastly, investing bow will cost significantly less than it would if we go for the "wait and see" approach. And who said China would be willing to part with it's most high tech aircraft?

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## kingdurgaking

PAFAce said:


> Creder, please do not purposely underestimate and ridicule the Indian PAK-FA program. It doesn't help. It is not just a "possible" future threat, it is a very much "probable" future threat. And this isn't the LCA, it's a Russian design. I would rather we overestimate the threat than underestimate it for the sole purpose of "feeling good". Lastly, investing bow will cost significantly less than it would if we go for the "wait and see" approach. And who said China would be willing to part with it's most high tech aircraft?



hmmm under estimate LCA.... neverthless your point is valid.. JV has always worked for us... considering MKI and Brahmos.. we will surely bring this bird to life.. as $30^9 is a huge money which we wont waste...


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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> Hasnain009, I am not talking about engineering a Fifth Gen aircraft on our own, I'm not stupid. I am saying that we must start making moves in that direction. Compare Pakistan's aero industry to India's and you'll realize the gap isn't as huge as the case with India-China, still India is moving in that direction. We must too.
> 
> Creder, please do not purposely underestimate and ridicule the Indian PAK-FA program. It doesn't help. It is not just a "possible" future threat, it is a very much "probable" future threat. And this isn't the LCA, it's a Russian design. I would rather we overestimate the threat than underestimate it for the sole purpose of "feeling good". Lastly, investing bow will cost significantly less than it would if we go for the "wait and see" approach. And who said China would be willing to part with it's most high tech aircraft?


I am also not referring to manufacture a 5th gen locally, the intention of examples was that even if a country has significant experience with 4 or 4.5th gen machine manufacturing and designing, 5th Gen is still a hard nut to crack. Considering PAF's need for replacement of 3rd gen fleet and no manufacturing experience of combat aircrafts, Its simply too demanding given the limited human and financial resources PAF has. I have said it before that PAF would certainly eye a 5th gen if regional situation warrented it. But its simply too far flungh at this point of time


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## PAFAce

kingdurgaking said:


> hmmm under estimate LCA.... neverthless your point is valid.. JV has always worked for us... considering MKI and Brahmos.. we will surely bring this bird to life.. as $30^9 is a huge money which we wont waste...


No, sir, not underestimating the LCA. Merely pointing to the fact that it is far behind on schedule and still under-developed, partially owing to India's lack of experience in the area. I followed that by saying that "this is a Russian design", i.e., they have done this a hundred times in the past and, therefore, it is much more of a threat.



hasnain0099 said:


> I am also not referring to manufacture a 5th gen locally, the intention of examples was that even if a country has significant experience with 4 or 4.5th gen machine manufacturing and designing, 5th Gen is still a hard nut to crack. Considering PAF's need for replacement of 3rd gen fleet and no manufacturing experience of combat aircrafts, Its simply too demanding given the limited human and financial resources PAF has. I have said it before that PAF would certainly eye a 5th gen if regional situation warrented it. But its simply too far flungh at this point of time


Sir, I am not denying any of your points. But please consider the fact that nobody, not Russia, not China and certainly not India, has had a taste of Fifth Gen before, and yet they are pursuing it. We may not have a great deal of experiencing designing 4th Gen aircraft, but we certainly have some 20 years of experience operating them, which is, incidentally, longer than India has. 

See, here's how I see it. Even if we can't provide technical know-how, we can, at least, assist with specifications and requirements development, program management, and, most importantly, funding. If, say, Pakistan can become a 25&#37; partner in the J-XX program (hypothetically speaking), that would not only solve our 5th Gen problems (possibly with ToPT once we are able to absorb it), it will even be more cost effective in the long term (as the per unit cost will certainly be much greater once it is in the production phase). The key difference to understand is that investment is greater than purchasing, and since the PAF has to move towards the 5th Gen eventually, why not invest?

Of course, that is only one idea. I'm sure if the PAF's top brass sat down to address this problem, they would find many more. Like I said, the F-35 may also be a possibility.

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## MZUBAIR

We cant say on the success of Russian & Indian Joint venure on 5th gene AC, they are already lacking and delayed in their LCA project.

Even if PAK-FA comes in 2018, still that would take atleast 5 years to become mature, battle proven, exercise proven etc etc.
I think IAF will not get it hands on before 2022. So I think we should focus to F-16s & JF-17's to counter IAF SU30's, Mig's and Mirages and to fill the *GAP*.

As far 5th generation AC's for PAF, so being a F-16 Customer we are already in books for *F35* future induction. J-XX is another on the list.

So, sleep tight no worries coz *PAF is awaking*.


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## Muhammad Yaser Naqi

Hi All,
*This is my first post and I belive some of you may not like it.* 

*5th Generation and Pakistan: *

If we want to make Pakistan stronger and a developed nation we have to think after 20 or 30 years . We have to plane know about 2020 not at 2020 for 2020. 
Pakistan is having big amount of money just need proper utilization. Dont worry about technology advancement. As an electronic Engineer I can tell you one thing when you are into electronics you can learn a 100 years advancement in 6 months and develop them in 1 year. 
Before the advent of Diode what was electronics but when it advent everything changes immediately. 
So we have to think about current requirements but in the same time we have to think about future requirements as well. Believe me if today we will start a programme for a 6th generation Fighter plan I can give you with in 5 years. Just what is required is a dedicated team with good knowledge and some money. 
I dont trust on single engine ,single pilot fighter plans for future requirements . If you want to see future plane you have to think about future . If i will go into details it will be very long so i want your answers to go further. 
Islam teaches us one thing: always prepare our horses:


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## MZUBAIR

Muhammad Yaser Naqi said:


> Hi All,
> *This is my first post and I belive some of you may not like it.*
> 
> *5th Generation and Pakistan: *
> 
> If we want to make Pakistan stronger and a developed nation we have to think after 20 or 30 years . We have to plane know about 2020 not at 2020 for 2020.
> Pakistan is having big amount of money just need proper utilization. Don&#8217;t worry about technology advancement. As an electronic Engineer I can tell you one thing when you are into electronics you can learn a 100 years advancement in 6 months and develop them in 1 year.
> Before the advent of Diode what was electronics but when it advent everything changes immediately.
> So we have to think about current requirements but in the same time we have to think about future requirements as well. Believe me if today we will start a programme for a 6th generation Fighter plan I can give you with in 5 years. Just what is required is a dedicated team with good knowledge and some money.
> I don&#8217;t trust on single engine ,single pilot fighter plans for future requirements . If you want to see future plane you have to think about future . If i will go into details it will be very long so i want your answers to go further.
> Islam teaches us one thing: always prepare our horses:



Welcome on board.

My 2 Lakh Rs advice.
If u want to learn then first read the posts of very senior Members (Like Moderators, Thinktank, fatman17,Mastan Khan etc). U will get mature and participate as other senior & genius people on this board.

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## Muhammad Yaser Naqi

2 good fighter plans are better then 100 ordinary plans. 2 good fighter plans can give you a damage more then 100 . 
A war can be win or lose by those 2. Belive me if a country is having 20 6th Generation plans or 5th generation plans you can't do anything with 1000 F-16 type of plans . They will be destroyed in no time like toyes. It will be game for enjoyment for the countries with latest technology plans. 
So in my point of view F-16 is nothing now in current world scenario.
Brothers don't take me wrong but we are in big danger and we have to think and act fast.


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## Muhammad Yaser Naqi

*thanks for advice .. I will try to read all the posts depending upon the available time.. regarding the senior or junior i don&#8217;t believe.. i believe on knowledge . if a person is senior without knowledge he is useless.. 
I don&#8217;t know the persons you are talking about i will try to read their posts.. 
Well thanks again...*


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## Muhammad Yaser Naqi

MZUBAIR said:


> Welcome on board.
> 
> My 2 Lakh Rs advice.
> If u want to learn then first read the posts of very senior Members (Like Moderators, Thinktank, fatman17,Mastan Khan etc). U will get mature and participate as other senior & genius people on this board.



 

Information is not knowledge. 
Albert Einstein quotes


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## MZUBAIR

Muhammad Yaser Naqi said:


> 2 good fighter plans are better then 100 ordinary plans. 2 good fighter plans can give you a damage more then 100 .
> A war can be win or lose by those 2. Belive me if a country is having 20 6th Generation plans or 5th generation plans you can't do anything with 1000 F-16 type of plans . They will be destroyed in no time like toyes. It will be game for enjoyment for the countries with latest technology plans.
> So in my point of view F-16 is nothing now in current world scenario.
> Brothers don't take me wrong but we are in big danger and we have to think and act fast.



Dont underestimate 4th generation fighters ....they are still capable to challange AC's of 4.5th n 5th gen AC 's.

*F-16 is the worlds best and war proven Air Craft.*


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## MZUBAIR

Muhammad Yaser Naqi said:


> *thanks for advice .. I will try to read all the posts depending upon the available time.. regarding the senior or junior i dont believe.. i believe on knowledge . if a person is senior without knowledge he is useless..
> I dont know the persons you are talking about i will try to read their posts..
> Well thanks again...*



There are many people..
Miltary officers.
Journalists..
n many who hav knolwedge in the defence profession.
Batter then people like me n u.

*Just a note for advice.*


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## Muhammad Yaser Naqi

MZUBAIR said:


> Dont underestimate 4th generation fighters ....they are still capable to challange AC's of 4.5th n 5th gen AC 's.
> 
> *F-16 is the worlds best and war proven Air Craft.*



Question is when F-16 got war proven and who was the competitor in the war ... if you are fighting a Dog with a Cat or Dog with a Dog .. but when Dog comes against a Tiger or against a Lion conditions will be quite different and interesting...
So may be F-16 will do somthing against 4.5 G with some great expertise and some good luck but if it will come against F 22 where it stands..


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## applesauce

just a few thoughts not to rain on your parade or anything

you cant possibly be thinking that 1-1.5 billion makes you anything near a 25&#37; partner in a fifth gen project.

china really doesn't "need" any monetary investments, if they allowed Pakistan to join its purely a political/strategic thing thus i have my doubts that china would even allow it to be a joint project given the current circumstances(pakistan is still technically a us ally, its government is corrupt to no end, technology-wise pakistan is behind to china and finacially well you know how it is financially

while i think china will at least sell maybe even with tot to Pakistan a version(the light version ie:f-35 type if it exists) i have doubts about full tot to pakistan the best plane china has that is potentially on par with(within ball park of) the best the west has. given that the current leader of pakistan is highly unreliable at best(whos knows if he'll give away secrets if someone, say the cia were to throw a few million his way).

when building the plane, obviously china will put its own air force as priority thus what will pakistan do in the mean time? while your waiting India is getting all kinda goodies like more mki and mrca and such you cant possibly be suggesting the jf-17 fullfill all required roles till the j-xx can make it to Pakistan in at least 10 years time.

if your suggesting that maybe if the pakistani financial situation gets better then it can join, well given that there are rumors of first flight this year or next, isnt it too late to wait till the financial situation is better? given that the development will be already near completion in 5 years?

so what im saying is, financially pakistan cant afford it right now, without sacrificing too much. its civilian government is not trust worthy, fix these 2 things and i dont see why china wouldnt want pakistan to join, but like i said at this point even if thing start to get fixed tomorrow it may be too late to join.

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## mughaljee

Fellows, 
why we are not focusing on JF-17 Current Version ?


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## SBD-3

Muhammad Yaser Naqi said:


> Information is not knowledge.
> Albert Einstein quotes



 if you're concerned about knowledge, then you should better pursue a degree in Aeronautical and Aviation Engneering. Here we most acquit ourselves with basic knowhow and information...and at least i have observed, that members usually grow mature as they absorb more and more information. So what you will find is a that many people jumping in every discussion or many just observing and posting only in specific areas of interest. You ll find it all here mate, just calm down and get addicted to reading more than posting at first to get strong footings for agruments

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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> No, sir, not underestimating the LCA. Merely pointing to the fact that it is far behind on schedule and still under-developed, partially owing to India's lack of experience in the area. I followed that by saying that "this is a Russian design", i.e., they have done this a hundred times in the past and, therefore, it is much more of a threat.
> 
> 
> Sir, I am not denying any of your points. But please consider the fact that nobody, not Russia, not China and certainly not India, has had a taste of Fifth Gen before, and yet they are pursuing it. We may not have a great deal of experiencing designing 4th Gen aircraft, but we certainly have some 20 years of experience operating them, which is, incidentally, longer than India has.
> 
> See, here's how I see it. Even if we can't provide technical know-how, we can, at least, assist with specifications and requirements development, program management, and, most importantly, funding. If, say, Pakistan can become a 25% partner in the J-XX program (hypothetically speaking), that would not only solve our 5th Gen problems (possibly with ToPT once we are able to absorb it), it will even be more cost effective in the long term (as the per unit cost will certainly be much greater once it is in the production phase). The key difference to understand is that investment is greater than purchasing, and since the PAF has to move towards the 5th Gen eventually, why not invest?
> 
> Of course, that is only one idea. I'm sure if the PAF's top brass sat down to address this problem, they would find many more. Like I said, the F-35 may also be a possibility.



I see the Idea, but a seek a few clarifications
1-How PAF can specify the program requirment of a generation where it has no opertaional awareness? (I mean all PAF can specific is that aircraft should be "something like raptor").Furthermore,China already have defined the specifications for her 5th Gen so we see a development going on over there i mean it would be silly that they would be making efforts without specifying certain benchmarks. If you're referring to an export variant, then its specs would be specified by China (upto what extent, they are willing to water it down) *IF* they decide to export it. All PAF can do is to specify but Chinese position will be dominent as China most likely, will be the monopolist supplier (I dont think JSF is coming PAF way)
2- What value can PAF add to this program?...PAF can be a benificiary at most by learning, but certainly not a contributor as indicated by ACM as well
3-Chinese program is about worth 30 Billion USD given 25% stake ur mentioning only development cost share will be around USD 7.5 Billion, thats about 15 times the development cost of JFT and more than the total millitary budget of Pakistan let alone the budget of PAF. given the current expansion plans of PAF, its virtually impossible to acquire even a 25% stake in JXX.

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## EgO Boy

Muhammad Yaser Naqi said:


> Question is when F-16 got war proven and who was the competitor in the war ... if you are fighting a Dog with a Cat or Dog with a Dog .. but when Dog comes against a Tiger or against a Lion conditions will be quite different and interesting...
> So may be F-16 will do somthing against 4.5 G with some great expertise and some good luck *but if it will come against F 22 where it stands.. *




On top of it...............


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## Developereo

applesauce said:


> so what im saying is, financially pakistan cant afford it right now, without sacrificing too much. its civilian government is not trust worthy, fix these 2 things and i dont see why china wouldnt want pakistan to join, but like i said at this point even if thing start to get fixed tomorrow it may be too late to join.



Excellent points.

I don't see why China would want to export its latest technology. The US doesn't export the F22, and the only reason the Russians are willing to share knowledge is because they are cash strapped.


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## unicorn148

Developereo said:


> Excellent points.
> 
> I don't see why China would want to export its latest technology. The US doesn't export the F22, and the only reason the Russians are willing to share knowledge is because they are cash strapped.



i dont think y u people think Russia is cash strapped. Russia have Forex reserves of 500 billion dollers and have large oil reserves so it need money and any way India is investing max of 5 billion $ and that amount is nothing for Russia.. IF Russia is ready to sell to IRAN then IRAN would be ready to give the double the amount but no they are only developing with India and India is equal partner so will get equal profits in this if sold to other countries


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## rockstarIN

Developereo said:


> Excellent points.
> 
> I don't see why China would want to export its latest technology. The US doesn't export the F22, and the only reason the Russians are willing to share knowledge is because they are cash strapped.



This is one of the main point left out by others...

USA hardly share their high end technology to others(F-22). And they make other nations as partners and get funding for F-35

Russia has no money to develop this technology by them alone, India see it as an opportunity to enter into from the scratches (design) of this machine which will enhance its capabilities in the future to make its own. Even top Russian officials indicated that 5th Gen technology is very complicated and secret so hardly any country will go ToT or know how to others..

What ever strong China-Pakistan friendship is, yet to see China offer their top notch stuff to Pakistan as the huge development cost is from Chinese. In this case F-35 is a good option..

May be most ppl will not agree with me..


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## rockstarIN

unicorn148 said:


> i dont think y u people think Russia is cash strapped. Russia have Forex reserves of 500 billion dollers and have large oil reserves so it need money and any way India is investing max of 5 billion $ and that amount is nothing for Russia.. IF Russia is ready to sell to IRAN then IRAN would be ready to give the double the amount but no they are only developing with India and India is equal partner so will get equal profits in this if sold to other countries



Money is definitely a factor otherwise why did USA stopped F-22?

India is a responsible country & an old friend of Russia as well as have some expertise in aviation industry, that is the reason we are a partner. Iran has nothing.


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## Developereo

unicorn148 said:


> i dont think y u people think Russia is cash strapped.



Russia approached China for JV on PAKFA before approaching India. There are only two reasons someone would want a partner: for their money or their knowledge. With all due respect to India and China, I don't think the Russians are lacking knowledge in this area. They managed to keep pace with the Americans just fine all by themselves during the Cold War.



rockstar said:


> What ever the strong China-Pakistan friendship is, its yet to see China offer their top notch stuff to Pakistan as the huge development cost is from Chinese.



Agree. The export version of JXX will be a watered down version, even to Pakistan.

The same as the FGFA (Indian version) will lack certain features the Russians will keep for themselves in their PAKFA.

No country is stupid to give away decades of experience and top secret defence technology even for a few billion dollars.


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## Awesome

Storm Force said:


> India, Russia ink biggest-ever military deal
> 
> The above news will no doubt have rippled into Pakistans military head quarters.
> 
> The official signing of the joint development of a 5th gen fighter (a sPin off from PAK FA).
> 
> With so much talk about FC20 in 2015 & possiblly more F16s from Norway or Europe post 2016 should the PAF not start to really push china on joining their JXX fifth gen fighter programme.
> 
> Some PDF members are claiming the chinease are neck and neck with Russia on their own programme and will enter IOC at the same time around 2018 time frame.
> 
> IF THIS IS TRUE ????????
> 
> Rather than comitt $2 BILLION ON FC20 or $1 billion more on used early F16s wud it not be bet better use of limited resources to go to
> 
> THUNDER ONLY as the main project
> 
> And spend $1 billion or $2 billion on joining JXX
> 
> Surely one sqd of JXX in 2020 COSTING $2 billion will be better than 5 sdqs F16s or 3 of FC20 COSTING THE SAME...


You're discounting 8-10 years of JXX arrival as nothing. FC-20 would be on the horizon around 2015 onwards itself - The Russian 5th Gen and the Chinese 5th Gen will be around in about 2025. 

There is a lot of exaggeration going on with the 5th Gens. Up until 5 years ago the US was supposed to be 50 years ahead of all other nations and right now whereas it has its own failing 5th gen programs, suddenly Russia and China are coming forth with their own machines with a 10-15 year gap?

1. The Russians have never really given a timeline, most exaggerations were done by Indians for their own vested interests
2. The Chinese have not given any timelines either, most exaggerations are being done by the Americans to spook their public.

Success always comes incrementally, big bang approachers have almost always failed. Progression for the PAF should be JF-17 upgrades, J-10, FC-20, Upgrades and then J-XX.

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## SQ8

It is quite unlikely the PAF will opt for the JXX at any stage..
Rockstar's analysis is a little accurate... While the Chinese do offer their best to us a year or so after they develop it. The Chinese aircraft may be too centric to their own op req.. 
It is also quite likely that the first 5th gen jet in the PAF service might very well be a JF-17 derivative( although it would probably differ enough to reduce commonality by quite a bit).
The South Korean KFX seems like an open option. But the issues that plague the F-35 today will have the same effect on that project.. too many cooks spoil the broth(The EF-2000 was esentially a development of the EFA..and quite a few times.. partners wanted to pull out of the project). Unless or until the KFX starts out with the Koreans and one other indrustrialized partner.. it may well be a damp squib.


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## rockstarIN

Developereo said:


> Agree. The export version of JXX will be a watered down version, even to Pakistan.
> 
> *The same as the FGFA (Indian version) will lack certain features the Russians will keep for themselves in their PAKFA.*
> 
> No country is stupid to give away decades of experience and top secret defence technology even for a few billion dollars.



I do not think so...look at our MKI..

Which Russian technology or weapons are not available to us? they wll sure give us anything..

That is the reason why India entered in this programme so early..

I'm sure Indian version will see a lot of our own as well as IAI and french systems on it. In fact, this might a factor in MMRCA, who will give us 'their' good technology know-how, whoever, gives us the best, will win..that is the reason why EF & Rafale is on top in the race & F-18 is behind. 

We will definitely wants to the best technology from MMRCA ToT to integrate in our FGFA and AMCA.


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## Developereo

rockstar said:


> Which Russian technology or weapons are not available to us? they wll sure give us anything..



There is no way to prove it; it is just my gut feel that no country will part with its top secret technology.

Firstly, there are no permanent friends and today's friend could be tomorrow's blackmailer.

Secondly, even if that doesn't happen, you have essentially outsourced your national security to the export country. Your secrets are now only as safe as their security.


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## unicorn148

Developereo said:


> Russia approached China for JV on PAKFA before approaching India. There are only two reasons someone would want a partner: for their money or their knowledge. With all due respect to India and China, I don't think the Russians are lacking knowledge in this area. They managed to keep pace with the Americans just fine all by themselves during the Cold War.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. The export version of JXX will be a watered down version, even to Pakistan.
> 
> The same as the FGFA (Indian version) will lack certain features the Russians will keep for themselves in their PAKFA.
> 
> No country is stupid to give away decades of experience and top secret defence technology even for a few billion dollars.



First of all there is solid proof that Russia approached china with a 50/50 JV if you have show it 

and We are Partners in that and not buying some export variant and we will be partners in every technology similar to that of brahmos .....
may be you may get in future a export variant of JXX but not us................


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## malikkhawar

Progression for the PAF should be JF-17 upgrades, J-10, FC-20, Upgrades and then J-XX.


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## rockstarIN

^^^technology is keep changing and getting costly day by day.

Better not to make a friend disappoint for a current day technology, which others may offer in coming 10-15 years. The friendship left out today might costly more in tomorrow.


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## SQ8

unicorn148 said:


> First of all there is solid proof that Russia approached china with a 50/50 JV if you have show it
> 
> and We are Partners in that and not buying some export variant and we will be partners in every technology similar to that of brahmos .....
> may be you may get in future a *export variant* of JXX but not us................



Perhaps you should consider that every Chinese product we have bought for ourselves..the export variant..has been more advanced and adaptable when compared to its image in the Chinese military..
So in other words..if we did get the J-XX.. it is probably going to be better than what the Chinese have.
History is yet to prove this wrong.


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## Speeder 2

unicorn148 said:


> First of all there is solid proof that Russia approached china with a 50/50 JV if you have show it
> 
> and We are Partners in that and not buying some export variant and we will be partners in every technology similar to that of brahmos .....
> may be you may get in future a export variant of JXX but not us................




Russia shares her top weapon secrets with you? you are in the lala land. What India could offer to PAKFA(T-50) btw? Not even its door to put it bluntly. 

"software package, etc..."? yeah right, apart from giving India a face-lift in joint media statement, Ruskies might desperately want to put a "hi tech" call-centre into FGFA, really 

The more India buys, the stronger the seller's future position ( future R&D funding for the next gen) will be , and the more India must buy in the future for the next, next gen... not the other way around.

Now Pakistan is a different story from India, since it is 10X smaller with similar gdp per cap hence PAF can not afford, understandablely, to compete with India $ for $. There's nothing wrong with it. PAF then has to be smart and solid on how to procure military gears instead of throwing $$$ the way India does.

All in all, completely absorbing JF-17 tech (gradually move on to its next block/s) and FC-20 tech is the solid way, and hence a smart way in the long run, to go for PAF, rather than chasing the latest or future "fashion", since long term planning sterms from a solid basis of today. 

The export version of J-XX , which would be equivalent to FGFA tech-wise, *will *be sent to PAF by China just in time to maintain South Asia's statue quo.

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## rockstarIN

santro said:


> Perhaps you should consider that every Chinese product we have bought for ourselves..the export variant..has been more advanced and adaptable when compared to its image in the Chinese military..
> So in other words..if we did get the J-XX.. it is probably going to be better than what the Chinese have.
> History is yet to prove this wrong.



Unlike Russia & US, China yet to come out with a very good system into the aviation market.

USA never gives full access of its technologies to any allies.

USSR/Russia started giving it after the USSR collapse to counter US technology only.

It is yet to know if China gets an advanced stuff by their own, will they share it with its friends..


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## rockstarIN

[


> QUOTE=Speeder 2;1354131]Russia shares her top weapon secrets with you? you are in the lala land. What India could offer to PAKFA(T-50) btw? Not even its door to put it bluntly.



Answer - SU-30 MKI( so far the best war plane Russia ever made and they allowed us to modify with our, western systems)

Read the news again about PAK-FA. Only first prototype is out. Russain PAKFA and Indian FGFA designs will be evolved from that only. Its going to take years ( 7 upgraded prototypes planned)

We both will design our planes with the help from each other as per our requirements.



> "software package, etc..."? yeah right, apart from giving India a face-lift in joint media statement, Ruskies might desperately want to put a "hi tech" call-centre into FGFA, really



DRDO developed EW systems, integrated life support system for the pilots etc. Also note that FGFA might see our own AESA(JV with others), BVRs (Astra) etc. Since we are years away from FGFA, we can now co -develop the sub systems even with France or Sweden etc to integrate to our fighter.

That way we worked for our MKI and sure we will follow the same.



> The more India buys, the stronger the seller's future position ( future R&D funding for the next gen) will be , and the more India must buy in the future for the next, next gen... not the other way around.



Its a partnership and co development, not a seller-buyer.



> Now Pakistan is a different story from India, since it is 10X smaller with similar gdp per cap hence PAF can not afford, understandablely, compete with India $ for $. There's nothing wrong with it. PAF then has to be smart and solid on how to procure military gears instead of throwing $$$ the way India does.
> 
> All in all, completely absorbing JF-17 tech (gradually move on to its next block/s) and FC-20 tech is the solid way, and thence a smart way, to go for PAF. .



I agree on this


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## Speeder 2

rockstar said:


> Answer - SU-30 MKI( so far the best war plane Russia ever made and they allowed us to modify with our, western systems)





That you can't think doesn't mean others can't think either.




rockstar said:


> We both will design our planes with the help from each other as per our requirements.




First show me the result of _ "We both will design our *basic rifles *with the help from each other as per our requirements"_, before talking about designing one of the most sophisticated warplanes in the world history. 




rockstar said:


> DRDO developed EW systems, integrated life support system for the pilots etc. Also note that FGFA might see our own AESA(JV with others), BVRs (Astra) etc. Since we are years away from FGFA, we can now co -develop the sub systems even with France or Sweden etc to integrate to our fighter.



your own aesa? BRVs? of course "your own". 

I have "my own" super wide flat TV, and "my own" ipad as well on top of which I put a cool surfing sticker of mine. 

And your point being?

As for integrated life support system, good lord you need that, and fast, particularly you "design" your own 5th gen. BTW, shall I need to mention to you that the "EJECT" button must be BIG and HANDY? 





rockstar said:


> Its a partnership and co development, not a seller-buyer.



How about "my name is Yuri GuptaNov"? 

Frankly, with sh!tload of $$$ in sight, Yuri will say anything when really required in front of cameras.

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## rockstarIN

..Troll...

..If you have nothing to say logically, better keep quite...


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## VelocuR

Sick of fifth generation fighters packages!


We *SHOULD* focus on Pakistan's economy at this moment to make it a big differences tmw! Then we will discuss next-generator fighters later. 

I repeat: *Economy, invest Economy, GROW Economy....*

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Unlike Russia & US, China yet to come out with a very good system into the aviation market.
> 
> USA never gives full access of its technologies to any allies.
> 
> USSR/Russia started giving it after the USSR collapse to counter US technology only.
> 
> It is yet to know if China gets an advanced stuff by their own, will they share it with its friends..



Depends on your definition of a "good system" is..
One that does its job..or one that spends its time in maintenance most of the time..like the B-1.. or the Mig-29..
The F-7MG is a good system...
The J-10..is a good system..

Now you are just being biased here.

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## rockstarIN

^^^

I said a very good system in aviation, not saying their stuff is bad, but all are new, and the same systems are available in the market, which they will definitely sale, but 5th gen tech which is rare and complex, hope you understand my point


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> ^^^
> 
> I said a very good system in aviation, not saying their stuff is bad, but all are new, and the same systems are available in the market, which they will definitely sale, but 5th gen tech which is rare and complex, hope you understand my point



Compared to the industrial complex that is aviation manufacturing in the US and Russia..They are doing quite well.
This isnt the 70's...
Technology has been proliferates to such an extent..that some of the best hardware is available commercially.
Competition forces that people sell.. would you have supposed 30 years ago that India would have had access to the best processors and equipment?..and not just the government.. ..small enterprises have access to mainframes if they wish.
Its just way..Moore's law applies here.. the rate it took the US to come up with a 5th gen..isnt the rate it will take the Chinese..or you.

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## Storm Force

First of All THANKS to ALL members for taking Part in debate.

From what we have seen We have concluded a no of things.

Firstly JXX is a highly secretive Chinease Project that is arguably their most advanced military project. For this reason nobody really knows hw far advanced it is in terms of technology, first flight or ioc. Also the concensus seems to be that China will not allow or does not want to share in the development in the project. 

When it does become available again varying estimates between 2018-2025 the feeling is China may not export this for several years (alias USA & F22 refusal to Japan & Israel) reasons are simple they are so rich they don,t need the money BUT most important they wish to guard their technology closely to their chests. 

Finally even if the PAF could join the leap from Thunder to JXX is so huge and the cost so immense it would be impractical to do so. 

For the reason most reasonable minds have suggested a efficient trusted route of more F16s and Thunders and a steady transcend to a 4.5 generation Fighter FC20 between 2015- 2020.

This incendently could see spin offs from JXX project as it matures into flights testing. 

Almost ceraintly some aspects of PAKFA will appear on SU30MKI upgrades in india.


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## Storm Force

Regarding Russia,s decision to give india the Partnership for FGFA and use their PAK FA as the template this is imo the real reason why it has happened. 

Russia certainly does not need the money regardless of wat people say they have $500 billlion in forex (3rd largest in the world) and is a BRICS nation. Rapid GDP growth. 

The real reason is as some one said competition. The indian Arms Market had been exclusively Russian. But India has opened the floodgates to USA Israel and Europe. The Russians know their are a handful of countries in the world with enornmous indian buying power between 2010-2025. They fear losing to EADS or America in MMRCA COMPETITION and will give India a slice of PAK FA for keeping at least 50&#37; share of the indian market.

India has boxed clever on this. They will use the PAK FA template but will bring in Western cockpit weapons and sensor fusion into their version called FGFA..SOME OF THIS COULD WELL BE SPIN OFFS from mmrca winner be it Typhoon,s meteore missles or F18S/H smart cockpit layout. 

Both india and Russia need this deal to work for their own vested interests.


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## Storm Force

In Reply to the Poster who said fgfa won,t enter IAF until 2025-2030 PLZ SEE LINK BELOW

Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter to fly in 2011 | Russia | RIA Novosti

Early 2011 for second plane 

And IOC 2020 which is 9 years away. Nine years is a lot of TESTING development time for an already flying plane


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## Qasibr

Looking at the way Russia inducted MiG-29s and SU-27s, there were considerable problems, it would be a long long story full of tales of downgrading radar requirements etc(later on, the MiG-31 with it's ~50 ton weight would carry a radar with the sort of specs the soviets wanted on the SU). Arguably, the 5th Gen jump is even bigger for Russia, mainly due to their avionics. 

The US used to focus on independent components that came together in an aircraft, whereas the Russians tended to just focus on the end-product. Even in the 80's, the Pakistanis got customized F-16s. Russia is coming around, they're clearly focusing on avionics more, but they still have alot of problems - the T-50 does not have a proper engine, the SU-27 engine it flies with is not stealthy at all.

Time will tell whether the project gets delayed, logically, it seems very likely. Personally, I don't buy into this whole 5th gen bit. 5th gen aircraft are *not* immensely superior to 4th gen, the only major benefit 5th gen provides is reduced radar signature, and that only at the cost of severely compromising the aircraft's payload capacity(unless you go the T-50 route and build a gigantic aircraft which would naturally tend to have a bigger radar cross-section). 

Other than the stealth(and the significantly reduced payload), all the avionics are already available in 4.5th gen aircraft, same generation AESA radars get installed, all these things can and are available in modern 4.5th gen aircraft. Smaller aircraft, even outdated ones like the MiG-21 "flying coffins" were hard to detect for the F-22, even though the -21 couldn't compete because it'd get shot when it got detected, and it's weaponry suite wouldn't be too modern. 

So - I think PAF's decision remains justified. Focusing on getting modern avionics on our 4.5th gen fleet would enable it to compete perfectly in the short run, especially given that lately we're looking to acquire modern SAMs. In a defensive war like we're likely to have in any wartime scenario(India always crosses the international border, we never have), we'd do fairly well.

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## rockstarIN

^^

Though your points are valid, 5th Gen v.s other lower generations have a huge gap, even if the only difference is stealth. It has been established in the war games already.


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## Rafi

PAF and Pakistani Armed Forces are very adept in "catching" up with technological innovations. We have proved it with AWAC's, Nukes etc. 

No doubt the brass, have their eye on developments and when the time comes, a equalizer to any development will materialise.


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## jagjitnatt

Qasibr said:


> Looking at the way Russia inducted MiG-29s and SU-27s, there were considerable problems, it would be a long long story full of tales of downgrading radar requirements etc(later on, the MiG-31 with it's ~50 ton weight would carry a radar with the sort of specs the soviets wanted on the SU). Arguably, the 5th Gen jump is even bigger for Russia, mainly due to their avionics.



Even with the problems those aircraft were inducted within 6 years of their first flight, and lets not say 5th gen is very tough and etc etc, because when Mig 29s and Su27s were being developed, then 4th gen technology was difficult to achieve. Technology has evolved, so its easier to make a 4th gen now, but back in the day it was just like developing a 5th gen right now.

So using that 6 years scale, I can say that PAKFA would be inducted by 2016 in Russia, and 2017 in India, just like what Sukhoi engineers are predicting.


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## jagjitnatt

Rafi said:


> PAF and Pakistani Armed Forces are very adept in "catching" up with technological innovations. We have proved it with AWAC's, Nukes etc.
> 
> No doubt the brass, have their eye on developments and when the time comes, a equalizer to any development will materialise.



I am sure, sooner or later PAF will get something to counter PAKFA, but with every passing year, its getting tougher and tougher. The difference between the IAF and PAF is growing bigger, and the price Pakistan has to pay for catching seems to be getting higher.

Pakistan needs to find another way to end this, because it can not afford to get into an arms race. Negotiating peace is the best way.


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## Rafi

jagjitnatt said:


> I am sure, sooner or later PAF will get something to counter PAKFA, but with every passing year, its getting tougher and tougher. The difference between the IAF and PAF is growing bigger, and the price Pakistan has to pay for catching seems to be getting higher.
> 
> Pakistan needs to find another way to end this, because it can not afford to get into an arms race. Negotiating peace is the best way.



Nobody would argue with peace with sovereign equality, it is not really becoming tougher, remember our procurements are subsidised to a large extent by billions of dollars worth of weapons and training from the US and China. 

In fact for every dollar we spend - we get at least 2 in assistance from our allies.


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## farhan_9909

jagjitnatt said:


> I am sure, sooner or later PAF will get something to counter PAKFA, but with every passing year, its getting tougher and tougher. The difference between the IAF and PAF is growing bigger, and the price Pakistan has to pay for catching seems to be getting higher.
> 
> Pakistan needs to find another way to end this, because it can not afford to get into an arms race. Negotiating peace is the best way.



MMS said no talk first stop terrorism.
So we want talk bt nt your MMS.

And dnt worry as our Economy grows let say after 2012.it achieves 6% growth and WOT finishes we will spend almost our budget in military instead of operation then we can buy or join any 5th generation fighter.

and also check out my signature for more info

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## Storm Force

To Farhan i think the thread has concluded that China does not want to Share the Fifth Gen JXX project.

Are you referring to some other country ???

As for QASBIR.. Suggesting he does not buy into this 5th gen fighter business. I would do some research into the KILL Ratios of 5th gen fighters over 4 gen fighters first. in computer sims and mock combat. 

If you stand stil "you get left behind" IN LIFE


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## Rafi

Storm Force said:


> To Farhan i think the thread has concluded that China does not want to Share the Fifth Gen JXX project.
> 
> Are you referring to some other country ???
> 
> As for QASBIR.. Suggesting he does not buy into this 5th gen fighter business. I would do some research into the KILL Ratios of 5th gen fighters over 4 gen fighters first. in computer sims and mock combat.
> 
> If you stand stil "you get left behind" IN LIFE



And I can assure you we will get a 5th Generation Aircraft - and it will be as advanced as your Russian purchase.


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## Storm Force

Easy to Say Rafi "we will get 5th gen fighter" 

I too believe PAF will HAVE NO CHOICE but to get JXX when china produces this and more importantly is willing to part with the technology..


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## Rafi

Storm Force said:


> Easy to Say Rafi "we will get 5th gen fighter"
> 
> I too believe PAF will HAVE NO CHOICE but to get JXX when china produces this and more importantly is willing to part with the technology..



Cut the arrogance storm force, we may even purchase the F35 or other systems. And the Russians may hold back some of the more sensitive technology, so your plane will be "down graded" version of their plane.

And what ever tech india buys we have always been able to get systems that neutralized it's effectiveness.


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## Storm Force

Rafi No arrogance just realism.

If F35 ever comes to South Asia my money is on India getting it first. Infact Lockheed Martin have suggested it makes sense for india to buy both F16IN & JSF from 2020. 

But the problem is the cost &#163;130m each. PAF can buy 10 JF17 s for that much money or 4 FC20s. Very expensive war planes the F35

As for watered down russian technology.

I suggest you read about the SU30MKI THE most advanced FLANKER IN THE WORLD with israeli and French Systems. and TVC engines.

I BELIEVE India will take the Russian design of the PAK FA but it will improved and infused with western technology. and weapons... just like the mki.


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## Usama86

I cannot understand why people want PAF to be a part of the Jxx project. The basic fact is that we have no idea about this technology and cannot assist the chines in any way, this is something which has been said my the PAF officials in the Zuhai air show as well. So the best thing to do is let China develop this thing using its resources and we can later buy it ofcourse.


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## Indian-Devil

Rafi said:


> Cut the arrogance storm force, we may even purchase the F35 or other systems. And the Russians may hold back some of the more sensitive technology, so your plane will be "down graded" version of their plane.
> 
> And what ever tech india buys we have always been able to get systems that neutralized it's effectiveness.



Rafi, There is a big queue for F-35, who has invested in this program and price tag is also quiet high. If PAF/Govt of Pakistan can manage this price tag then do you think US will offer same varient of F-35 which they are using or which is used by those countries which invested a lot in this program. That will not be a "down graded" version?

There are couple of more factors which will not allow even PAF to buy it, but i donot wana put them here, as most of us understand them.

Will they be able to maintain such an costly AC, although PAF manage to get it from US. 
Think on these topics before putting ur wish list.

As long as you think you guys can neutralize what system India buys, its ur thinking and belief , I donot wana comment on it. But atleast i donot think thats the case in real.


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## Rafi

My friend when it comes to the security and safety of the Pakistani people and state, we have surprised our enemies many times.

Suffice to say the Pakistani Defence Forces and the Security Establishment is well aware of the developments in the region. And any gap in the nations defence will be filled, of that you can be certain. 

Acta Non Verba


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## IamINDIA

i think pakistans plan is to aquire 5th gen versions of jf-17 once the deliveries of all 4 to 4.5gen jf-17s are done ........

and i think most pakistanis would agree with me on this...

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## Rafi

IamINDIA said:


> i think pakistans plan is to aquire 5th gen versions of jf-17 once the deliveries of all 4 to 4.5gen jf-17s are done ........
> 
> and i think most pakistanis would agree with me on this...



Yes - but other options will also be looked upon - when the time comes, nice positive post by you my friend


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## houshanghai

China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder

"The two (countries) have also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth variant of the JF-17 Thunder," it said.

news.outlookindia.com | China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder

defence.pk thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ou-develop-stealth-variant-jf-17-thunder.html

j20 is too expensive,PLAAF wont buy it too much .I guess PAF'S stealth aircraft maybe own version &#65288;a single ws-15 engine light JXX Variant ) in future.


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## Ammyy

houshanghai said:


> China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder
> 
> "The two (countries) have also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth variant of the JF-17 Thunder," it said.
> 
> news.outlookindia.com | China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder



 Indian news source for Pakistani MoU ????


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## doctor_who

OH so paksitan will have a stealth jf-17, thats great with their tight budget if they can acheive something like this - it will increase the number of toys in their arsenal ,

also india wont be too worried either.

but i dont see paksitan getting some fifth gen fighter for long time. reason being they dont need one currently. and none is on offer too.
china wont supply their top of the line equipment. because they want to keep ambiguity around their weapon and keep other guessing for what ever reason.
also their budget wont allow it.


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder
> 
> "The two (countries) have also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth variant of the JF-17 Thunder," it said.
> 
> news.outlookindia.com | China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder
> 
> defence.pk thread
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ou-develop-stealth-variant-jf-17-thunder.html



we had a lot of discussion on this, but the sources informed us that this plan was dropped......

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## Qasibr

Making the JFT a stealth aircraft would require a complete re-design, it would be easier to start off from scratch. 

I think that Pakistan is looking to get latest-gen jamming technology, the Indians installed Israeli jammers on their Vietnam era(40 year old) MiG-21s, and even the F-22 couldn't detect it quiet easily. The Chinese have a history with Israeli technology, and personally I think this sounds alot more plausible. Unlike the Indian MiG-21, the JFT is a modern jet with a latest-gen warfare suite and everything, and if the JFT managed to get near targets undetected, they might not be so lucky. There've been various articles from western sources recently that talk about how the SD-10A platform seems much more complex and advanced than believed previously, especially in the light of the Chinese openly discussing -10A details with western journalists.

It also deserves a mention, that in 2008 when Indian SU-30s came crossed the border near Lahore and in the Kashmir sector, the Pakistani army chief presented an image of the SU-30 from the cockpit of a Pakistani F-16, with the -30 locked on. I remember the caption was, that the bloke threatened that the next time this happened, the situation wouldn't just climax at lock-ons and retreats. 

That would suggest that Pakistan has some form of jamming equipment installed on the -16s, because the -30 has missiles of greater range, and yet the -16 got close enough to lock on with sidewinders.


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## Qasibr

Oh and @Storm Force, I do agree with you - the wargames the US has had, clearly show a very very lopsided win-loose ratio. The only time an F-16 scored a win was when it'd get blown to pieces right after firing off at the -22. My point was, that the benefit of stealth can be had with 4.5th gen too.

The Eurofighter consortium's been disputing that their aircraft is "4.5th gen" compared to "5th gen" F-35, because according to them, this implies that their aircraft wouldn't be able to compete with the -35. They clearly feel that it could. Alot of literature coming out of Australia also suggests that they were very suspicious of the practical benefits the F-35 offered, even their members of parliament raised questions about it. I'm not disputing that 5th gen aircraft, the F-22 specifically, haven't had alot of success in wargame scenarios and training exercises. My point was, that modern jammers in relatively smaller aircraft(that naturally have a smaller cross-section) enables even outdated equipment like the MiG-21 to get close to the F friggin' -22 undetected, the only problem there was that the MiG-21 doesn't have modern gen warfare equipment to effectively engage it.

The current generation of radar and avionics technology that gets installed in 5th gen aircraft, is equivilant to the level of technology 4.5th gen aircraft are being fitted with these days. There's nothing in 4.5th gen aircraft, that prevent them from being equipped with AESA radars, latest gen jammers and EW warfare suites, missiles and everything. My thought was that in the short run, 4.5th gen aircraft equipped with modern gen equipment could "cut the bread" as it were. In a defensive environment, this, paired with modern SAM systems seems to be the policy the PAF is pursuing.

In the long run, even Pakistan would get 5th gen aircraft. The last Airforce Chief even said something to the effect, that we'd be adding 4.5th gen and 5th gen aircraft within the next decade. So, sure there's a limit to how much modern gen stuff you can incorporate into older aircraft(and whether it's worth it, upgrading old aircraft with limited flight hours left in 'em), alot of countries are developing 4.5th gen technology, and it makes sense. The Eurofighter's supposed to go through a modernization programme, the stuff that comes out of that would be flown by leading European countries for decades to come.


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## gambit

Qasibr said:


> Oh and @Storm Force, I do agree with you - the wargames the US has had, clearly show a very very lopsided win-loose ratio. The only time an F-16 scored a win was when it'd get blown to pieces right after firing off at the -22. My point was, that the benefit of stealth can be had with 4.5th gen too.
> 
> The Eurofighter consortium's been disputing that their aircraft is "4.5th gen" compared to "5th gen" F-35, because according to them, this implies that their aircraft wouldn't be able to compete with the -35. They clearly feel that it could. Alot of literature coming out of Australia also suggests that they were very suspicious of the practical benefits the F-35 offered, even their members of parliament raised questions about it. I'm not disputing that 5th gen aircraft, the F-22 specifically, haven't had alot of success in wargame scenarios and training exercises. My point was, that *modern jammers in relatively smaller aircraft(that naturally have a smaller cross-section) enables even outdated equipment like the MiG-21 to get close to the F friggin' -22 undetected, the only problem there was that the MiG-21 doesn't have modern gen warfare equipment to effectively engage it.*
> 
> The current generation of radar and avionics technology that gets installed in 5th gen aircraft, is equivilant to the level of technology 4.5th gen aircraft are being fitted with these days. There's nothing in 4.5th gen aircraft, that prevent them from being equipped with AESA radars, latest gen jammers and EW warfare suites, missiles and everything. My thought was that in the short run, 4.5th gen aircraft equipped with modern gen equipment could "cut the bread" as it were. In a defensive environment, this, paired with modern SAM systems seems to be the policy the PAF is pursuing.
> 
> In the long run, even Pakistan would get 5th gen aircraft. The last Airforce Chief even said something to the effect, that we'd be adding 4.5th gen and 5th gen aircraft within the next decade. So, sure there's a limit to how much modern gen stuff you can incorporate into older aircraft(and whether it's worth it, upgrading old aircraft with limited flight hours left in 'em), alot of countries are developing 4.5th gen technology, and it makes sense. The Eurofighter's supposed to go through a modernization programme, the stuff that comes out of that would be flown by leading European countries for decades to come.


No...ECM is *NOT* the same as being low radar observable. ECM is active. Being low radar observable is passive.

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## Qasibr

True.. My point was that non-stealth aircraft with modern gen avionics still have a place.


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## SBD-3

Qasibr said:


> True.. My point was that non-stealth aircraft with modern gen avionics still have a place.



a correction, in cope India USAF was using F-15s and F-16s....I dont know where did you added up awesome 7 to 15 to make it 22


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## rockstarIN

Qasibr said:


> True.. My point was that non-stealth aircraft with modern gen avionics still have a place.



Stealth is very important mate, bigger crafts like F-15s & Su-30s have high RCS but have bigger radars+enough pods for ECMs.


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## wakapdf

stealth is only good for hit and run tactics, but if u were to engage in a close dogfight than stealth is no good. qasibr is right, mig 21 of f7 with decent avionics can effectively engage f22 because they have high maneuverability. US airforce dont pay that much attention to maneuverability anyhow, they believe if they can shoot something from a mile away, whats the point of maneuverability


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## graphican

doctor_who said:


> OH so paksitan will have a stealth jf-17, thats great with their tight budget if they can acheive something like this - it will increase the number of toys in their arsenal ,
> 
> also india wont be too worried either.
> 
> but i dont see paksitan getting some fifth gen fighter for long time. reason being they dont need one currently. and none is on offer too.
> china wont supply their top of the line equipment. because they want to keep ambiguity around their weapon and keep other guessing for what ever reason.
> also their budget wont allow it.



Here at PDF, new people like you appear twice a day and after spending few months learn how wrong perceptions they had when they initially joined. Enjoy yourstay and you will realize your world of fantasy is not so real.


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## SBD-3

wakapdf said:


> stealth is only good for hit and run tactics, but if u were to engage in a close dogfight than stealth is no good. qasibr is right, *mig 21 of f7 with decent avionics can effectively engage f22 because they have high maneuverability*. US airforce dont pay that much attention to maneuverability anyhow, they believe if they can shoot something from a mile away, whats the point of maneuverability



.....thanks for enlightening us....

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## rockstarIN

wakapdf said:


> stealth is only good for hit and run tactics, but if u were to engage in a close dogfight than stealth is no good. qasibr is right, mig 21 of f7 with decent avionics can effectively engage f22 because they have high maneuverability. US airforce dont pay that much attention to maneuverability anyhow, they believe if they can shoot something from a mile away, whats the point of maneuverability



There hardly be any dog fights, I'm not saying others do not have a chance but very less.

Also thru ISRT, you can track up to 90 kms...whether it is a stealth or not.


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## S10

First look of J-XX at CAC testing facility. It became apparent that it conducted runway tests on December. 22 by both picture and eyewitness accounts. Based on this, I am predicting test flight in early 2011.















Image modified to show a better outline of the plane


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## S10

wakapdf said:


> *stealth is only good for hit and run tactics, but if u were to engage in a close dogfight than stealth is no good.* qasibr is right, *mig 21 of f7 with decent avionics can effectively engage f22 because they have high maneuverability.* *US airforce dont pay that much attention to maneuverability anyhow, they believe if they can shoot something from a mile away, whats the point of maneuverability*


No, just no.

I highlighted the wrong assumptions in your post. Basically, it's all wrong.

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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> First look of J-XX at CAC testing facility. It became apparent that it conducted runway tests on December. 22 by both picture and eyewitness accounts. Based on this, I am predicting test flight in early 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image modified to show a better outline of the plane



the tails are strange....looks like they are not canted ones.....and also by the size, it does not look like a 5th gen rather a bomber


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## S10

hasnain0099 said:


> the tails are strange....looks like they are not canted ones.....and also by the size, it does not look like a 5th gen rather a bomber


Can't tell much by the resolution of the pics at this point. Somebody will have to get closer to get better photos. As for the size, I fully expect the plane to be quite large, up to 20 meters.

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## SQ8

Why does it look like a Mig-31 from the clint eastwood movie firefox??





That is an uncanny resemblance in the images there.


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## Manticore

http://dc249.*******.com/img/dNQJmVqS/0.5390710009895979/jxx.jpg


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## gambit

Qasibr said:


> True.. My point was that non-stealth aircraft with modern gen avionics still have a place.


Of course. Never said that the current generation is useless. But the side that dominate the EM spectrum increases its odds of control of the air arena over any territory. An ECM shield is like a physical shield. I may not be able to identify the wielder or how many are there behind that shield, but at the very least I am alerted of a potential threat. Being low radar observable (or reflective), aka 'stealth', is akin to a well camo-ed soldier. Not only is his personal outline disguised under layers of coverings, but his outer appearance blends with the immediate environment, he does not cough, sneeze, or even yawn lest his breath and movements give him away, and he covered himself with the substances that emit the same odors of the forest. As the human mind reject what is evident and common for all to see and seek out anomalies, the radar's electronic mind is programmed with the same rejection threshold -- clutter. The F-117 class aircrafts are designed to be within that EM clutter rejection threshold.

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## gambit

wakapdf said:


> stealth is only good for hit and run tactics, but if u were to engage in a close dogfight than stealth is no good. qasibr is right, mig 21 of f7 with decent avionics can effectively engage f22 because they have high maneuverability. US airforce dont pay that much attention to maneuverability anyhow, they believe if they can shoot something from a mile away, whats the point of maneuverability


You are so wrong in everything above...

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies


> Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.
> 
> "The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, *even when I can see it through the canopy*," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."


When an F-22 is airborne without its radar enhancer, the effect upon an adversary's seeking radar is evident. We have a former F-15 pilot member of this forum who taught everyone this rule of air combat: Lose sight. Lose fight.

But how can you win when you cannot even 'see' him even when you do see him?

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## Qasibr

@hasnain0099 The US fielded F-22s in that exercise. There was alot of outcry in the Indian media when this video of a USAF officer surfaced, where the bloke candidly talked about the performance of Indian SU-30s and MiG-21s. He talked about how the F-22 wouldn't detect the MiG because the MiG was small and had an Israeli jammer, and only found out when it was being fired upon.

The video was widely discussed over here, I'm surprised you don't know about it. That's where I "added 7" and was talking about the F-22.


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## jagjitnatt

Qasibr said:


> @hasnain0099 The US fielded F-22s in that exercise. There was alot of outcry in the Indian media when this video of a USAF officer surfaced, where the bloke candidly talked about the performance of Indian SU-30s and MiG-21s. He talked about how the F-22 wouldn't detect the MiG because the MiG was small and had an Israeli jammer, and only found out when it was being fired upon.
> 
> The video was widely discussed over here, I'm surprised you don't know about it. That's where I "added 7" and was talking about the F-22.



That was an F15 and not an F22


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## Martian2

gambit said:


> Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.
> 
> *"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy,"* said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When an F-22 is airborne without its radar enhancer, the effect upon an adversary's seeking radar is evident. We have a former F-15 pilot member of this forum who taught everyone this rule of air combat: Lose sight. Lose fight.
> 
> *But how can you win when you cannot even 'see' him even when you do see him?*
Click to expand...


This doesn't sound right. The F-22 is within eyesight through the canopy of the F-15 pilot. Yet, RAAF Squadron Leader Chappell is too dumb to maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and fire a heat-seeking missile? His claim and your analysis both sound like propaganda that we hear from a defense contractor.

When the F-22 is within eyeball-range, it has a large engine heat-signature. It is vulnerable from behind. A competent pilot would maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and try to win Red Flag.

Here is the heat signature of a F-22 at eyeball-range. Do you see that bright orange flame? An AIM-9 Sidewinder would score a quick kill.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> This doesn't sound right. The F-22 is within eyesight through the canopy of the F-15 pilot. Yet, RAAF Squadron Leader Chappell is too dumb to maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and fire a heat-seeking missile? His claim and your analysis both sound like propaganda that we hear from a defense contractor.
> 
> When the F-22 is within eyeball-range, it has a large engine heat-signature. It is vulnerable from behind. A competent pilot would maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and try to win Red Flag.


Unbelievable...But we have to give the Chinese boys here kudos for the balls to boast about Chinese high IQs despite the above 'argument' that proved they learned nothing here.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1297385-post26.html

Let us see if you can exercise some critical thinking skills from reading a former F-15 pilot's experience at training and war games...Then see how ridiculous your argument above really is...


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## jagjitnatt

Martian2 said:


> This doesn't sound right. The F-22 is within eyesight through the canopy of the F-15 pilot. Yet, RAAF Squadron Leader Chappell is too dumb to maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and fire a heat-seeking missile? His claim and your analysis both sound like propaganda that we hear from a defense contractor.



You're right. The F22 is good, but it just isn't as good as people hyped it up to be. F-22 is more of a propaganda than a fighting machine. It has never been used anywhere outside the US, and it hasn't engaged any fighter aircraft outside US yet.

US seems to glorify it beyond sanity, and yet shut down the program. The F-22 is not invincible, and can be shot down. According to me 2 Su30s should be enough to take it down.

90&#37; claims regarding F-22's performance are propaganda. Nothing else.

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## gambit

jagjitnatt said:


> You're right. The F22 is good, but it just isn't as good as people hyped it up to be. F-22 is more of a propaganda than a fighting machine. It has never been used anywhere outside the US, and it hasn't engaged any fighter aircraft outside US yet.
> 
> US seems to glorify it beyond sanity, and yet shut down the program. The F-22 is not invincible, and can be shot down. According to me 2 Su30s should be enough to take it down.
> 
> *90% claims regarding F-22's performance are propaganda.* Nothing else.


And yours are not?  I see nothing there that qualify remotely as a cogent analysis.


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## Martian2

jagjitnatt said:


> You're right. The F22 is good, but it just isn't as good as people hyped it up to be. F-22 is more of a propaganda than a fighting machine. It has never been used anywhere outside the US, and it hasn't engaged any fighter aircraft outside US yet.
> 
> US seems to glorify it beyond sanity, and yet shut down the program. The F-22 is not invincible, and can be shot down. According to me 2 Su30s should be enough to take it down.
> 
> 90&#37; claims regarding F-22's performance are propaganda. Nothing else.



They said that the F-117 Nighthawk could not be seen by radar or shot down. A minor country named Serbia shot it out of the sky. I am reserving judgment on the F-22 until it faces some real air defenses (e.g. multiple AWACS, powerful ground-based phased-array radars, bistatic radars of the Serb variety, etc.) and pilots. I'm not willing to swallow RAAF squadron leader's propaganda that defies common sense.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> They said that the F-117 Nighthawk could not be seen by radar or shot down. A minor country named Serbia shot it out of the sky.


NATO flew roughly 40k sorties, including about sixty B-2s non-stop from CONUS, over Yugoslavia. Lost: one F-16 and one F-117. That is not an air defense combat record to boast about.



Martian2 said:


> I am reserving judgment on the F-22 until it faces some real air defenses (e.g. multiple AWACS, powerful ground-based phased-array radars, bistatic radars of the Serb variety, etc.) and pilots. I'm not willing to swallow RAAF squadron leader's propaganda that defies common sense.


The Serb back then never had bi-static radars. Am willing to bet you do not know what is it. And if you actually read with an open mind on other's experience, you might learn something other than what you falsely think is 'common sense'.

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## jagjitnatt

Martian2 said:


> They said that the F-117 Nighthawk could not be seen by radar or shot down. A minor country named Serbia shot it out of the sky. I am reserving judgment on the F-22 until it faces some real air defenses (e.g. multiple AWACS, powerful ground-based phased-array radars, bistatic radars of the Serb variety, etc.) and pilots. I'm not willing to swallow RAAF squadron leader's propaganda that defies common sense.



Yes. US has never had a powerful rival after the WW-II. All its weapons are tested only against weak opponents, not to say that these weapons are bad, they are good. But whether or not they are the best, remains to be seen.

When the F-22 was new, the test pilots always talked about its maneuverability, how it was so great with TVC. Then slowly they started saying how its so easy to fly, then stealth, and now they say its invincible. F-22 is more like Chuck Norris 



gambit said:


> And yours are not?  I see nothing there that qualify remotely as a cogent analysis.



Ever heard of common sense? I'm afraid not.


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## gambit

jagjitnatt said:


> Yes. US has never had a powerful rival after the WW-II.


The Soviet Union.



jagjitnatt said:


> All its weapons are tested only against weak opponents, not to say that these weapons are bad, they are good. But whether or not they are the best, remains to be seen.


That is one of the most ridiculous arguments around. Here is an example...

Operation Bolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have said it before and I will repeat: In any fight, the goal is to make your opponent fight under your rules, not you under his. And cheating is allowed.

The MIG-21 was superior to the F-4 in many ways, but in Operation Bolo, the Americans forced the North Vietnamese pilots to fight under the F-4's advantages. So if we go by your strict hardware versus hardware argument, can we say that the F-4 was superior?



jagjitnatt said:


> When the F-22 was new, the test pilots always talked about its maneuverability, how it was so great with TVC. Then slowly they started saying how its so easy to fly, then stealth, and now they say its invincible. F-22 is more like Chuck Norris


For now, the F-22 is the 'Chuck Norris' of the air.



jagjitnatt said:


> Ever heard of common sense? I'm afraid not.


*YOU* have not heard of common sense? Sorry to hear that. Wish I could give you some of mine.


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## Martian2

gambit said:


> Martian2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All its weapons are tested only against weak opponents, not to say that these weapons are bad, they are good. But whether or not they are the best, remains to be seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is one of the most ridiculous arguments around. Here is an example...
Click to expand...


If you manage to attribute the quote to the right person, you might have a little credibility. Hint: see post #109.

By the way, I'm not budging from my original position. Within eyeball-range, a F-22 can be shot down with a heat-seeking missile (e.g. AIM-9 Sidewinder). I don't care what you or that RAAF squadron leader claims. Common sense trumps silly claims.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> If you manage to attribute the quote to the right person, you might have a little credibility. Hint: see post #109.


Are you really that sensitive over what is usually dismissed as minor 'clerical' error that does not affect the contents and contexts of the debate? Aawww....Let me shed a couple tears for you...


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## SBD-3

Martian2 said:


> This doesn't sound right. The F-22 is within eyesight through the canopy of the F-15 pilot. Yet, RAAF Squadron Leader Chappell is too dumb to maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and fire a heat-seeking missile? His claim and your analysis both sound like propaganda that we hear from a defense contractor.
> 
> *When the F-22 is within eyeball-range, it has a large engine heat-signature*. It is vulnerable from behind. A competent pilot would maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and try to win Red Flag.
> 
> Here is the heat signature of a F-22 at eyeball-range. Do you see that bright orange flame? An AIM-9 Sidewinder would score a quick kill.


Do you know F-22's exhaust system ensures that even at full afterburner the heat signature is not as augmented as of another fighter. F-22 is optimized for every aspect of stealth. This also inspired Snecma to work on similar lines and come up with M88 2 which is also optimized for IR signature reduction


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> By the way, I'm not budging from my original position. Within eyeball-range, a F-22 can be shot down with a heat-seeking missile (e.g. AIM-9 Sidewinder). I don't care what you or that RAAF squadron leader claims. Common sense trumps silly claims.


I do not expect you to 'care'. This is a publicly accessible forum. My goal is not to convince you but to prove you wrong. The reading public will make up their minds after they see what you falsely believe to be 'common sense' based from ignorance and no experience versus this...



Chogy said:


> It is impossible to adequately describe how DACT between friendly nations is done. Gambit made a very good effort. The public commonly thinks of them as all-out brawls, like boxing. Two heavyweights go at it, and only one remains standing. It is NEVER like that in DACT.
> 
> In my years of ACT/DACT, every single mission had what are called "learning objectives", and one or both sides act a role, so as to maximize training. When the USAF aggressors came to support a unit, everyone outside of the environment thinks "The Aggressors will go in and fight as hard as they can; may the best man win." It doesn't work that way. I (in an instructor role) may take a new wingman, and make use of a single Aggressor, placing him in what are called perch setups, canned setups designed to train the new wingman. I may handcuff the Aggressor further, telling him he is limited to AIM-9P equivalent. I'll have him start behind on some setups, and I'll have him start in front, so that I may teach the new wingman the art of good COMM and maneuvering with a partner in both offensive and defensive setups.
> 
> This can get expanded into a 4 V 4. I will ask the Aggressors on the first engagement to execute a lead-trail formation, with the leaders dragging out, or some sort of difficult sorting problem for our flight. On the next, I may say "We are all AIM-9P and guns" meaning no BVR, no front-aspect shots. Everything is crafted to maximize training. I "died" hundreds if not thousands of times in training. That's how you get better.
> 
> In this sort of situation as described, the F-15's may be acting in an Aggressor role. They may have been intentionally limited. Or, it is entirely possible they got waxed. That doesn't mean that the next day, they won't crush the opponent. That's how it goes from day to day.
> 
> One other thing people rarely consider is the psychological factor of watching your friends and flight leaders go down in flames. It is easy to say "8 MiG-21's can kill 2 F-15's", but I will guarantee when your friends are blowing up all around you, and there are shouts and frantic calls on the radio, the best plan in the world will flush right down the toilet.


Those who are willing to exercise critical thinking skills, which apparently you are not a member of said group, would understand that in an exercise as explained by a former F-15 pilot/instructor, RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell described what clearly was a controlled exercise designed to highlight an important characteristic of the F-22. Chappell was describing a 'snapshot' from a greater event. For all we know, it could have been a 'radar' only engagement to train pilots on how best to use a radar guided missile. When a pilot say 'visual' it does not mean what he sees filled up his entire view. It mean he can see the aircraft with his own eyes, be it one meter away or one hundred meters or one thousand meters. In casual language, that is what he meant by 'eyeball'. Do not inject what you falsely believe to be 'common sense', which is based upon ignorance and non-experience, into something specialized.


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## Martian2

hasnain0099 said:


> Do you know F-22's exhaust system ensures that even at full afterburner the heat signature is not as augmented as of another fighter. F-22 is optimized for every aspect of stealth. This also inspired Snecma to work on similar lines and come up with M88 2 which is also optimized for IR signature reduction



Sorry, I'm not buying the propaganda. I see a bright burning orange flame coming from both engines. If I can see it then the heat-seeking missile can also see it. It is simple common sense. I fail to see any heat-mitigating equipment between the flame and my eyeballs. Do you see anything to impede that bright infrared signature from the engines? I don't.


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## Martian2

gambit said:


> I do not expect you to 'care'. This is a publicly accessible forum. My goal is not to convince you but to prove you wrong. The reading public will make up their minds after they see what you falsely believe to be 'common sense' based from ignorance and no experience versus this...
> 
> 
> Those who are willing to exercise critical thinking skills, which apparently you are not a member of said group, would understand that in an exercise as explained by a former F-15 pilot/instructor, RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell described what clearly was a controlled exercise designed to highlight an important characteristic of the F-22. Chappell was describing a 'snapshot' from a greater event. For all we know, it could have been a 'radar' only engagement to train pilots on how best to use a radar guided missile. When a pilot say 'visual' it does not mean what he sees filled up his entire view. It mean he can see the aircraft with his own eyes, be it one meter away or one hundred meters or one thousand meters. In casual language, that is what he meant by 'eyeball'. Do not inject what you falsely believe to be 'common sense', which is based upon ignorance and non-experience, into something specialized.



I read the article in the Red Flag newslink that you provided. They provided no details. Why did you agree with RAAF squadron leader Chappell, who made a vague and broad generalization without any supporting evidence?

At its heart, this is a debate between common sense and fanboys. I'm on the side of common sense. Which side are you on?


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> I read the article in the Red Flag newslink that you provided. They provided no details. *Why did you agree* with RAAF squadron leader Chappell, who made a vague and broad generalization without any supporting evidence?


Because I have *DIRECT* experience in aviation and avionics, specialties during and after the military: Flight Controls and Radar. 



Martian2 said:


> At its heart, this is a debate between common sense and fanboys. I'm on the side of common sense. Which side are you on?


I have yet to be disproved on technical grounds. Everything I said anyone can be researched further. Everything I said can be found in the public domain. Far more than your version of 'common sense'.


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## jagjitnatt

Martian2 said:


> I read the article in the Red Flag newslink that you provided. They provided no details. Why did you agree with RAAF squadron leader Chappell, who made a vague and broad generalization without any supporting evidence?
> 
> At its heart, this is a debate between common sense and fanboys. I'm on the side of common sense. Which side are you on?



Oh, forget it Martian. He's a an American. 
He's good with what he does, but when it comes to US of A, bias is clearly visible in his posts. But that's what we expect from an American. Don't we?

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## gambit

jagjitnatt said:


> Oh, forget it Martian. He's a an American.
> He's good with what he does, but when it comes to US of A, *bias is clearly visible* in his posts. But that's what we expect from an American. Don't we?


You mean we should expect *YOU* to exercise bias in favor of Pakistan or even America?  Who/what do you expect me to favored based upon my own technical experience?


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## Martian2

jagjitnatt said:


> Oh, forget it Martian. He's a an American.
> He's good with what he does, but when it comes to US of A, bias is clearly visible in his posts. But that's what we expect from an American. Don't we?



Jagjitnatt, thank you for the reminder. It is pointless to argue with a fanboy. I think it is clear that whatever RAAF squadron leader Chappell claims (e.g. F-22 is invincible!), "gambit" will gladly accept the claim without any critical examination. That is actually quite sad and not what I had expected. I am disappointed.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> Jagjitnatt, thank you for the reminder. It is pointless to argue with a fanboy. I think it is clear that whatever RAAF squadron leader Chappell claims, "gambit" will accept the claim without any critical examination. That is actually quite sad and not what I had expected. I am disappointed.


Nothing wrong with being a 'fanboy'. But what is wrong is being a 'fanboy' without supporting evidences and critical thinking skills. You have neither.


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## Hindutvadi

I started to read this thread to know about J-XX...but i ended up knowing about f-22.


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## SBD-3

Hindutvadi said:


> I started to read this thread to know about J-XX...but i ended up knowing about f-22.



Fruits of derailing


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## Storm Force

Guys chengduise as uploaded a Image of a New Fighter maybe JXX is closr than we think.

Which means my question remains 

Should PAF jump on board JXX IN 2015 and by Pass FC20.

i SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS wat PAF to to Thunder over the next 5 years first.


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## Myth_buster_1

IMO PAF must reduce the number of JF-17 to 150 order no more then 36 FC-20 and save money for Chinese stealth fighters.


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## rockstarIN

^^^Do not change your plans just coz of one blurred picture up in the forum, its long way to go...


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## conworldus

I think the best way for Pakistan to go about this is to jointly produce a stealth modified JF-17 that uses J-XX technology instead of J-XX itself. This way ToT will also be much easier since Pakistan already has the foundation for the JF-17.

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## mjnaushad

rockstar said:


> ^^^Do not change your plans just coz of one blurred picture up in the forum, its long way to go...


Those who plan for PAF know much more than a blurred picture.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> ^^^Do not change your plans just coz of one blurred picture up in the forum, its long way to go...



Are you referring to the ..fans.. plans here..or the actual plans?


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## MastanKhan

Martian2 said:


> If you manage to attribute the quote to the right person, you might have a little credibility. Hint: see post #109.
> 
> By the way, I'm not budging from my original position. Within eyeball-range, a F-22 can be shot down with a heat-seeking missile (e.g. AIM-9 Sidewinder). I don't care what you or that RAAF squadron leader claims. Common sense trumps silly claims.



Hi,

At first I thought you had a little substance---but then this post blew it all for you----.

See---with your common sense approach----you think that just because you can see something visually---a missile can also see that same thing with the same perspective---.

Do you understand where I am getting to now---does the common sense tell you in which direction I am headed---should I continue or stop here---maybe not.

The optical connection, the physiology and connenction between the eye to the brain in humans is based on different factors as compared to that of the eye/optics/sensors in the missile head to the missile brain.

Whereas there are no jammers to block our sensation of vision persay ( flash bang grenades )---the jammers on the F 22 can blind that aim 9 sidewinder to where it doesnot know if there is any aircraft in the area---. So----there is no place for common sense---.

It is not a matter of common sense issue at this stage---it is more of a technical problem.

Secondly---whomsoever talks about the dowining of the F117 over the balkans---needs to talked about the technique used in dowing that aircraft---.

Without talking about the background in the shooting of that aircraft---how did it happen and the strategy used to down it----the poster is just being ignorant and insulting to others---this type of post should not be encouraged and if it was upto me---the poster warned one time to come up with some kind of explanation/analogy behind the shooting or be terminated from this board.

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## Jigs

jagjitnatt said:


> You're right. The F22 is good, but it just isn't as good as people hyped it up to be. F-22 is more of a propaganda than a fighting machine. It has never been used anywhere outside the US, and it hasn't engaged any fighter aircraft outside US yet.
> 
> US seems to glorify it beyond sanity, and yet shut down the program. The F-22 is not invincible, and can be shot down. *According to me 2 Su30s should be enough to take it down.*
> 
> 90% claims regarding F-22's performance are propaganda. Nothing else.



This lost all your credibility for me. The idea that having more aircraft results in defeating a F-22 especially in the current warfare environment. Think about that for a minute.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The technology in the F 22 has taken the fighter interceptor aircraft to a totally different pleateau.

The american war machinery has never been based upon propagnda---it never was and never will be---.

American war machines are designed by the manufacturer on the premise---promise less deliver more--F16---F15--F18 or the F22---each one of them a top tier pltaform second to none---.

A lot of people are thinking about combat between the F 22 and the SU 30 with their blinders on---they are having a very difficult time understanding that F 22 is not coming for a dog fight---the strengths of the F 22 are different than those of the conventional air dominance fighters---.

Whereas the conventional fighters have sensitive radars, bvr's for long range---but nothing to hide their presence--the F 22 doesnot let the opponent know about its presence---even within the critical launch range.

The shutting down of the project has other reasons---first---the asircxraft has performed way beyond any expectations---there would possibly be no other aircraft to come close to it within the next 10 to 15 years----so----current numbers are enough---.

Next--based on what the usaf has learnt from the F 22----the next plane would be pilotless---usaf has gone in a different direction---so basically no need to waste anymore funds.

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## notorious_eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The technology in the F 22 has taken the fighter interceptor aircraft to a totally different pleateau.
> 
> The american war machinery has never been based upon propagnda---it never was and never will be---.
> 
> American war machines are designed by the manufacturer on the premise---promise less deliver more--F16---F15--F18 or the F22---each one of them a top tier pltaform second to none---.
> 
> A lot of people are thinking about combat between the F 22 and the SU 30 with their blinders on---they are having a very difficult time understanding that F 22 is not coming for a dog fight---the strengths of the F 22 are different than those of the conventional air dominance fighters---.
> 
> Whereas the conventional fighters have sensitive radars, bvr's for long range---but nothing to hide their presence--the F 22 doesnot let the opponent know about its presence---even within the critical launch range.
> 
> The shutting down of the project has other reasons---first---the asircxraft has performed way beyond any expectations---there would possibly be no other aircraft to come close to it within the next 10 to 15 years----so----current numbers are enough---.
> 
> Next--based on what the usaf has learnt from the F 22----the next plane would be pilotless---usaf has gone in a different direction---so basically no need to waste anymore funds.



And let me add another reason Khan Sahib. 

American legacy fighters are good enough to secure air superiority against any adversary. Whats the point of going for further F22's, when upgrading the F15's and F16's with AESA and JHMCS package can get the job done. American military machine is absolutely second to none, their is no adversary right now in the world that can stand up against the US in a conventional military fight.

On a side note, SU30's perception with Indians of "God's Gift to Aviation" still continues . 2 SU30 are good enough to take on F22 , i think they forgot how the F15's and F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where the IAF pilots refused to go one on one against the top tiered USAF pilots. The Americans evaluated the MKI at Nellis, they weren't impressed as it was nothing revolutionary considering what the Indians were saying about this plane.

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## Martian2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At first I thought you had a little substance---but then this post blew it all for you----.
> 
> See---with your common sense approach----you think that just because you can see something visually---a missile can also see that same thing with the same perspective---.
> 
> Do you understand where I am getting to now---does the common sense tell you in which direction I am headed---should I continue or stop here---maybe not.
> 
> The optical connection, the physiology and connenction between the eye to the brain in humans is based on different factors as compared to that of the eye/optics/sensors in the missile head to the missile brain.
> 
> Whereas there are no jammers to block our sensation of vision persay ( flash bang grenades )---the jammers on the F 22 can blind that aim 9 sidewinder to where it doesnot know if there is any aircraft in the area---. So----there is no place for common sense---.
> 
> It is not a matter of common sense issue at this stage---it is more of a technical problem.
> 
> Secondly---whomsoever talks about the dowining of the F117 over the balkans---needs to talked about the technique used in dowing that aircraft---.
> 
> Without talking about the background in the shooting of that aircraft---how did it happen and the strategy used to down it----the poster is just being ignorant and insulting to others---this type of post should not be encouraged and if it was upto me---the poster warned one time to come up with some kind of explanation/analogy behind the shooting or be terminated from this board.



You are just annoying me. The bright orange flames that you see in the engines of the F-22 are emitting electromagnetic radiation in the infrared range. This is basic physics that everyone learns in high school. The infrared detector on the heat-seeking missile will home in on that electromagnetic emission for a kill. 

Have you noticed that "gambit" is not disputing that a AIM-9 Sidewinder would kill a F-22 from behind in close range? He's trying to squirm out of it by claiming that the F-15 in the Red Flag exercise may only have radar-tracking missiles.

Gambit knows that I raised a good point, but his pride prevents him from acknowledging it.


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> You are just annoying me.


And you annoy everyone with your obstinacy and refusal to admit that because you have no experience others who do may have more credibility than you do.



Martian2 said:


> The bright orange flames that you see in the engines of the F-22 are emitting electromagnetic radiation in the infrared range. This is basic physics that everyone learns in high school. The infrared detector on the heat-seeking missile will home in on that electromagnetic emission for a kill.


And what is so shocking about that?



Martian2 said:


> Have you noticed that "gambit" is not disputing that a AIM-9 Sidewinder would kill a F-22 from behind in close range? He's trying to squirm out of it by claiming that the F-15 in the Red Flag exercise may only have radar-tracking missiles.
> 
> Gambit knows that I raised a good point, but his pride prevents him from acknowledging it.


What is there to dispute? Precisely because you have never served in the military, you are making assumptions about training -- erroneous assumptions. Before you start boasting, why not prove that such controlled training programs do not exist?


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## SomeGuy

MastanKhan said:


> The optical connection, the physiology and connenction between the eye to the brain in humans is based on different factors as compared to that of the eye/optics/sensors in the missile head to the missile brain.
> 
> Whereas there are no jammers to block our sensation of vision persay ( flash bang grenades )---the jammers on the F 22 can blind that aim 9 sidewinder to where it doesnot know if there is any aircraft in the area---. So----there is no place for common sense---.



I don't understand. I thought jammers only jammed radars.

Sidewinders are heatseekers that passively detect IR, how would you jam them?

I know F-22 has IR reducing technology, but these only reduce the IR signature - not eliminate it. I also read somewhere that IR sensors (QWIP) are being developed that can detect cooler objects at much greater distances (BVR). Many experts predict that these new QWIP sensors will be game changers.

Don't modern IR missiles have flare decoy avoiding ability as well?

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## Martian2

Air-to-air missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"*Fifth generation*

*The latest generation of short-range missiles again defined by advances in seeker technologies, this time electro-optical imaging infrared (IIR) seekers that allow the missiles to &#8220;see&#8221; images* rather than single &#8220;points&#8221; of infrared radiation (heat). The sensors combined with more powerful digital signal processing provide the following benefits:[3]

** greater infrared counter countermeasures (IRCCM) ability, by being able to distinguish aircraft from infrared countermeasures (IRCM) such as flares.*
* greater sensitivity means greater range and ability to identify smaller low flying targets such as UAVs.
* more detailed target image allows targeting of more vulnerable parts of aircraft instead of just homing in on the brightest infrared source (exhaust).

Examples of fifth generation missiles include:

* AIM-132 ASRAAM &#8212; Britain (1998&#8211
* AIM-9X Sidewinder &#8212; USA (2003&#8211
* IRIS-T &#8212; German lead consortium (2005&#8211
* Python 5 &#8212; Israeli
* A-Darter (under development) &#8212; South Africa and Brazil
* Vympel R-77 &#8212; Russia (1994&#8211
** PL-10/PL-ASR &#8212; China*
* AAM-5 &#8212; Japan
* Astra missile BVRAAM - India"

----------

Merry Christmas to ol' curmudgeon Gambit. While you possess a repertoire of military knowledge, your enthusiasm caused you to lose this skirmish (e.g. my opinion). It's okay to be wrong every now and then. No one is perfect.

I wish you my best.

Best regards,

Martin

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## Myth_buster_1

rockstar said:


> ^^^Do not change your plans just coz of one blurred picture up in the forum, its long way to go...



Yes as if i am the PAF top brass.


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## MastanKhan

Martian2 said:


> You are just annoying me. The bright orange flames that you see in the engines of the F-22 are emitting electromagnetic radiation in the infrared range. This is basic physics that everyone learns in high school. The infrared detector on the heat-seeking missile will home in on that electromagnetic emission for a kill.
> 
> Have you noticed that "gambit" is not disputing that a AIM-9 Sidewinder would kill a F-22 from behind in close range? He's trying to squirm out of it by claiming that the F-15 in the Red Flag exercise may only have radar-tracking missiles.
> 
> Gambit knows that I raised a good point, but his pride prevents him from acknowledging it.



Sir,

Under what scenario would the aim 9 get a lock on the F22---your aircraft has to be at its 6 'O clock and within single digit miles from the target to get a lock on---in a tail chase within 3 to 5 miles of the F 22---that could happen if the pi-gs could fly and if the F 22 is out of weapons---the pilot is sleeping---it is running on 4 cylinders instead of 8---.

Now if someone says that it is flying at a lower altitude and comes under anti aircraft gun fire---that will take it out---other than that---it is just a wish.

And don't be annoyed please----it puts wrinkles around the yes and forehead.

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## Martian2

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Under what scenario would the aim 9 get a lock on the F22---your aircraft has to be at its 6 'O clock and within single digit miles from the target to get a lock on---in a tail chase within 3 to 5 miles of the F 22---that could happen if the pi-gs could fly and if the F 22 is out of weapons---the pilot is sleeping---it is running on 4 cylinders instead of 8---.
> 
> Now if someone says that it is flying at a lower altitude and comes under anti aircraft gun fire---that will take it out---other than that---it is just a wish.
> 
> And don't be annoyed please----it puts wrinkles around the yes and forehead.



You came into the middle of a discussion without reading the earlier posts. The discussion starts at post #103 and the claim of RAAF squadron leader Chappell at Red Flag.


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## Myth_buster_1




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## MastanKhan

Martian2 said:


> This doesn't sound right. The F-22 is within eyesight through the canopy of the F-15 pilot. Yet, RAAF Squadron Leader Chappell is too dumb to maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and fire a heat-seeking missile? His claim and your analysis both sound like propaganda that we hear from a defense contractor.
> 
> When the F-22 is within eyeball-range, it has a large engine heat-signature. It is vulnerable from behind. A competent pilot would maneuver his plane behind the F-22 and try to win Red Flag.
> 
> Here is the heat signature of a F-22 at eyeball-range. Do you see that bright orange flame? An AIM-9 Sidewinder would score a quick kill.




Sir, I understood you the first time---. They could not get behind the aircraft howsoever they tried---otherwise, he would have stated it otherwise.

Everyone of these fighter jocks wants to be the one to have taken out the F 22---sunnyside up, overeasy, from behind---. Each one of them wants to be the one with their name on the plaque---. It is preposterous to ecven think that neither one of them tried it from the behind----they all tried to---but could not make the penetration.

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## Jigs

^^^Best explanation i heard so far.


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## Martian2

MastanKhan said:


> Sir, I understood you the first time---. They could not get behind the aircraft howsoever they tried---otherwise, he would have stated it otherwise.
> 
> Everyone of these fighter jocks wants to be the one to have taken out the F 22---sunnyside up, overeasy, from behind---. Each one of them wants to be the one with their name on the plaque---. It is preposterous to ecven think that neither one of them tried it from the behind----they all tried to---but could not make the penetration.



You're hopeless. I'm getting tired of reposting my points. This is my last reply.

Previously, you claimed that there was some eyeball-to-brain phenomenon that would disrupt or prevent a heat-seeking missile from downing a F-22 from behind. That goofy idea was debunked. You also made some other silly arguments that I will not bother reviewing.

Let me address your latest point. As previously posted, I informed Gambit that RAAF squadron leader Chappell gave absolutely no details in the article on the Red Flag exercise. The only thing that we know for a fact is that Mr. Chappell was within eyeball range of the F-22. 

Mr. Chappell and Gambit both gushed about the invincibility of the F-22. I indirectly reprimanded Gambit for his unprofessional fanboy response to Mr. Chappell's unsubstantiated claim.

Here, in your post, you are making the same mistake as Gambit. There is absolutely no factual basis to back up Mr. Chappell's claim of complete impotence in close combat (i.e. eyeball-range) with a F-22.

As I reminded Gambit and of which he is fully aware, a F-22 is most vulnerable in close combat. Mr. Chappell's claim is hard-to-believe and he gave us no information to support his assertion that a F-22 is unbeatable in close combat. It is simply hogwash.

Any competent combat pilot would have attempted to maneuver behind the F-22 in close combat and use the F-15's cannons or AIM-9X Sidewinder to win the Red Flag exercise. Mr. Chappell is either incompetent or a fanboy of the F-22.

That's it. I'm done repeating myself.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Soryy--that we didnot meet your standards of understanding.


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## abaseen99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First disclosed by US Office of Naval Intellegence (ONI) in 1997 as XXJ, J-20 (?) is a 4th generation fighter to enter the service around 2015. Since 90s both CAC/611 Institute and SAC/601 Institute had been working their own designs for a twin-engine multi-role heavy fighter with enhanced stealth capability and maneuverability comparable to American F-22. It was speculated that 601 Institute was working on a "tri-plane" design based on canard/conventional layout/V-shape tailfin while 611 Institute working on a design based on canard/tailless delta wing/all moving V-shape tailfin/side DSI/bump inlet layout. All designs were expected to feature an internal weapon bay to reduce RCS, which has been speculated to be <0.05m2 (head-on). It was also rumored initially that J-20 could be powered by two 13,200kg/WS-10 class "high thrust" turbofan engines with TVC nozzles which would result in a normal TO weight exceeding 20t. J-20 may also incoporate an advanced FBW system fully integrated with the fire-control and the engine systems. Its fire-control radar is expected to be AESA (Type 1475/KLJ5?). The aircraft may feature a "pure" glass cockpit (a single F-35 style color LCD display and a wide-angle holographic HUD) as well as an IRST/LR. Many of these subsystems have been tested onboard J-10B to speed up the development (see above). Russian assistance has been speculated in terms of softwore support for calculating the RCS of various designs, as well as supply of Salyut 99M2 turbofan engine (14,000kg class) to power the prototypes, if the domestic engine (such as improved WS-10A) fails to meet the schedule. The overall performance of J-20 is thought to be superior to Russian T-50 (stealth) but still inferior to Amereican F-22 (electronics & supercruise). It was reported in November 2006 that a T/W=10 17,000kg class turbofan (WS-15/"large thrust") is being developed for J-20. In August 2008 it was reported that 611 Institute was selected to be the main contractor for the development of J-20 and 601 Institute as the sub-contractor. A full-scale mock-up may have been built at CAC. One rumor in May 2010 suggested that 611 Institute started to construct the first prototype, which is expected to fly by 2012, even though the full configuration one won't fly until a few years later. The latest rumor claimed that the first two prototypes (2001 & 2002) have been constructed and the first high-speed taxiing trial by 2001 took place on December 22,


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## mshoaib61

Front side pic of JXX


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## rockstarIN

santro said:


> Are you referring to the ..fans.. plans here..or the actual plans?



Off course the fans mate, after seeing this pic, I see PAF fans are changing to Jxx than their previous stand of JF-17 + J-10+F16.

I think earlier I only hear from T-Faz to go to Jxx instead of J-10, but that time, hardly any takers for that..


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## rockstarIN

notorious_eagle said:


> On a side note, SU30's perception with Indians of "God's Gift to Aviation" still continues . 2 SU30 are good enough to take on F22 , i think they forgot how the F15's and F16's hammered the SU30MKI to the point where *the IAF pilots refused to go one on one against the top tiered USAF pilots*. The Americans evaluated the MKI at Nellis, they weren't impressed as it was nothing revolutionary considering what the Indians were saying about this plane.



I do not want to comment on the MKIs performance in Nellis as it has been discussed to death in most forums, neither I think it a God's gift. F-22 is superior and all admit that, just to reply for the bold part.

Recent mock fight between F-22 & EF, Eurofighter scored a radar lock on F-22. May be because F-22 is not on stealth mode. But they canceled all one to one combat with EF supposed to take place next day. Is that mean F-22 guys are afraid of EF? I believe not.


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## link16

the fifth air craft ne ed 5 -8years to get in to use


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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> Merry Christmas to ol' curmudgeon Gambit. While you possess a repertoire of military knowledge, your enthusiasm caused you to lose this skirmish (e.g. my opinion). It's okay to be wrong every now and then. No one is perfect.
> 
> I wish you my best.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Martin


The person who lost is *YOU*, as in credibility. You have no military experience and that immediately place you at a disadvantage when we are talking about training. Nowhere have I disputed the fact that an IR-type missile cannot be used, but the issue here is how low observable the F-22 is in the radar sensory regime and that was why I brought up the Red Flag example. When a pilot said within 'visual' range, it does not mean his opponent filled his vision, but rather that he can distinguish his opponent from background clutter and from among other aircrafts in the area, if there are any. So against the F-22, it make no sense for any opposition pilot to lie about his inability to get a radar lock. If he can, then everyone will know about it. If he cannot and lie, then everyone will know about it. This is Red Flag where aircrafts are equipped with recorders, not some air junket in China where Photochop skills are expected of participants.

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## gambit

Martian2 said:


> You're hopeless.


Nope...It is *YOU* who are hopeless.



Martian2 said:


> Let me address your latest point. As previously posted, I informed Gambit that RAAF squadron leader Chappell gave absolutely no details in the article on the Red Flag exercise. The only thing that we know for a fact is that Mr. Chappell was within eyeball range of the F-22.


Here is what he actually said...

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies


> "The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, *even when I can see it through the canopy*," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."


Stop using hyperboles to exaggerate yourself. Eyeball......Yeah...You are indeed hopeless.



Martian2 said:


> Mr. Chappell and Gambit both gushed about the invincibility of the F-22.


Care to show where the word 'invincible' was used by me?



Martian2 said:


> I indirectly reprimanded Gambit for his unprofessional fanboy response to Mr. Chappell's unsubstantiated claim.


You 'reprimanded' me?



Martian2 said:


> As I reminded Gambit and of which he is fully aware, a F-22 is most vulnerable in close combat. Mr. Chappell's claim is hard-to-believe and he gave us no information to support his assertion that a F-22 is unbeatable in close combat. It is simply hogwash.
> 
> Any competent combat pilot would have attempted to maneuver behind the F-22 in close combat and use the F-15's cannons or AIM-9X Sidewinder to win the Red Flag exercise. Mr. Chappell is either incompetent or a fanboy of the F-22.


This is peace time training, we do not shoot live weapons at each other in training. And we do not 'win' at Red Flag.



Martian2 said:


> That's it. I'm done repeating myself.


It is understandable that one could get tired from repeating the same debunked garbage.


----------



## Thomas

SomeGuy said:


> I don't understand. I thought jammers only jammed radars.
> 
> Sidewinders are heatseekers that passively detect IR, how would you jam them?
> 
> I know F-22 has IR reducing technology, but these only reduce the IR signature - not eliminate it. I also read somewhere that IR sensors (QWIP) are being developed that can detect cooler objects at much greater distances (BVR). Many experts predict that these new QWIP sensors will be game changers.
> 
> Don't modern IR missiles have flare decoy avoiding ability as well?



The F-22 can use it's ASEA radar to disrupt radar locks. it is something that has been known for some time. 

The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

"When operating as a radar, the AN/APG-77 transmits waveforms that change from burst to burst, and are sent at random frequencies. Such a changing signal is very difficult for an enemy to detect and analyze. If adversaries do manage to detect the signal, they must then try to get a radar lock on the F-22 so it can be attacked. *The F-22's stealthiness makes this tricky in the first place, but to make matters more troublesome, the AESA also analyses the enemy's radar and sends out a jamming burst to disrupt the lock.* The AESA then goes on to other tasks until the enemy radar begins its lock cycle again. "


As far as IR protection global security has a nice technical description of how this is attained with the F-22

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-stealth.htm

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## siegecrossbow

Thomas said:


> The F-22 can use it's ASEA radar to disrupt radar locks. it is something that has been known for some time.
> 
> The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
> 
> "When operating as a radar, the AN/APG-77 transmits waveforms that change from burst to burst, and are sent at random frequencies. Such a changing signal is very difficult for an enemy to detect and analyze. If adversaries do manage to detect the signal, they must then try to get a radar lock on the F-22 so it can be attacked. *The F-22's stealthiness makes this tricky in the first place, but to make matters more troublesome, the AESA also analyses the enemy's radar and sends out a jamming burst to disrupt the lock.* The AESA then goes on to other tasks until the enemy radar begins its lock cycle again. "



This is really interesting. In effect the radar itself could be used as a 
"directed energy weapon of sorts". Thnx for the post.


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## siegecrossbow

SomeGuy said:


> I don't understand. I thought jammers only jammed radars.
> 
> Sidewinders are heatseekers that passively detect IR, how would you jam them?



I know this may sound stupid but technically couldn't you disrupt the IR sensor with a highpowered laser (for future fighters)? I think they are working on a system mounted on helicopters.


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## Thomas

siegecrossbow said:


> This is really interesting. In effect the radar itself could be used as a
> "directed energy weapon of sorts". Thnx for the post.



Most of the electronic warfare ability of the AESA is a closely guarded secret. Theoreticly it can actually fry SAM radars as well.


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## gambit

siegecrossbow said:


> I know this may sound stupid but technically couldn't you disrupt the IR sensor with a highpowered laser (for future fighters)? I think they are working on a system *mounted on helicopters.*


Already deployed...







AN/ALQ-144 Countermeasures Set [CMS]


> The AN/ALQ-144 system is an omni-directional active infrared Countermeasures Set which protects the EH-1H, EH-1X, EH-60A, MH-60K, UH-60A, AH-1F, AH-64A, OV-1D, and RV-1D aircraft from air-to-air and ground-to-air heat seeking (infrared) missiles.

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## SomeGuy

siegecrossbow said:


> I know this may sound stupid but technically couldn't you disrupt the IR sensor with a highpowered laser (for future fighters)? I think they are working on a system mounted on helicopters.





gambit said:


> Already deployed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AN/ALQ-144 Countermeasures Set [CMS]



Wouldn't such a device mounted on a stealth fighter become counter productive to stealth though?


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## link16

the phototype may not settle ASEA radar, it just test aerodynamics and structure ! I think !


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## SomeGuy

Thomas said:


> The F-22 can use it's ASEA radar to disrupt radar locks. it is something that has been known for some time.
> 
> The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
> 
> "When operating as a radar, the AN/APG-77 transmits waveforms that change from burst to burst, and are sent at random frequencies. Such a changing signal is very difficult for an enemy to detect and analyze. If adversaries do manage to detect the signal, they must then try to get a radar lock on the F-22 so it can be attacked. *The F-22's stealthiness makes this tricky in the first place, but to make matters more troublesome, the AESA also analyses the enemy's radar and sends out a jamming burst to disrupt the lock.* The AESA then goes on to other tasks until the enemy radar begins its lock cycle again. "



Interesting.

Would missiles employing passive detection modes be affected by this jamming? I read somewhere that newer missiles such as PL-12/SD-10 has passive modes that can home in on EW emissions without using the launch aircrafts radar or its own active seeker.



Thomas said:


> As far as IR protection global security has a nice technical description of how this is attained with the F-22
> 
> F-22 Stealth



Yet IR detection remains a factor that enemies will look to exploit, no?


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Off course the fans mate, after seeing this pic, I see PAF fans are changing to Jxx than their previous stand of JF-17 + J-10+F16.
> 
> I think earlier I only hear from T-Faz to go to Jxx instead of J-10, but that time, hardly any takers for that..



Well.. 
Let them have their fun then..even if for a grainy picture.


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## Storm Force

For Pakistan the problem is balancing their Finances.

If They go for 200 Thunders with steady improvement its fine but it will eat up $4 billion in 10 years ie 2010-2020.

That will leave some careful juggling to do ie 

FC20 X 36 OR 72 = $1.5 OR $3 BILLION

or more used F16s on the cheap with some more F16.52 thrown in

Save the money and buy a $70-$90m JXX IN 2020


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## gambit

SomeGuy said:


> Wouldn't such a device mounted on a stealth fighter become counter productive to stealth though?


It would depend on how such a device is designed and deployed on a body like an F-22. On a helo, the rotors pretty much negate any low radar observability the helo's body may be shaped to be that way, so it would not matter much as to how such an infrared countermeasure device may look like.


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## gambit

SomeGuy said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Would missiles employing passive detection modes be affected by this jamming? I read somewhere that newer missiles such as PL-12/SD-10 has passive modes that can home in on EW emissions without using the launch aircrafts radar or its own active seeker.


Electronics CounterMeasures (ECM) is broad in definition, so for proper context here, let us add the word 'active' for clarity's sake.

Active ECM is when there are transmissions intended to reduce the effectiveness of other transmissions. Active ECM can be preemptive or responsive. A 'beamrider' missile operate in the 'passive' mode, meaning it does not produce any transmissions for target discrimination but relies on the generosity of EM transmitters in the immediate area to lead it to a transmission source. If there are data on transmission signatures, the missile can be programmed to change direction towards the general direction of a particular signature, even if there are multiple transmissions/signatures in the area. But that is another issue/discussion altogether.

Remember...

The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor


> ...the AESA also analyses the enemy's radar and sends out a jamming burst to disrupt the lock.


The 'beamrider' missile does not transmit, so there is nothing to 'analyze' and to counter. So if there are no transmissions, be it from a seeking radar operation or from a responsive ECM operation, a missile in 'beamrider' mode will have nothing to go by.



SomeGuy said:


> Yet IR detection remains a factor that enemies will look to exploit, no?


EM transmissions are 'at will', meaning the aircraft can chose to transmit a radar or not, to talk or not. But if the engine is shut off, then the aircraft become severely limited in operation. That mean for now infrared emissions can be reduced but not eliminated. The method of reduction varies but the vulnerability remains, albeit in lesser degree.

There is a necessary context to the word 'reduction' here and it can be difficult to understand...

Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Engine exhaust passes over the aircraft's horizontal stabilizer and between the twin tails, decreasing the A-10's infrared signature and lowering the likelihood that the aircraft can be targeted by heat-seeking missiles.


The A-10's engine exhaust infrared output is not being negated at the source, meaning the aircraft itself, but the infrared emissions have been made more difficult to 'view', in a manner of speaking, by the engines' placement. As the IR sensor moves from direct view to either sides or to below the aircraft, its IR detection has been 'reduced' and that is the proper context of the word.

It is very rare that an IR seeker will be in such direct view of an IR source, as in action movies situations rare. That is why IR seeker technologies are being constantly researched and upgraded whenever possible to exploit those high off-axis angles of detection, made worse because those engine IR sources are highly maneuverable themselves.

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## SQ8

Uh gambit.. would not the newer generation IR seekers that pick up the heat at the leading edges and in some cases the complete airframe itself..ala.. Python 5...or 9x..negate the IR suppression advantage??


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## jagjitnatt

santro said:


> Uh gambit.. would not the newer generation IR seekers that pick up the heat at the leading edges and in some cases the complete airframe itself..ala.. Python 5...or 9x..negate the IR suppression advantage??



IR suppression is not very effective as of yet.
Reason being that almost all IR missiles are short range missiles, and if an IR missile is being launched from 10-15 kms, there is little to nothing you can do to suppress the IR signature of the aircraft. The seeker will find the aircraft. 

The only chance is to outmaneuver the missile or use of flares. We know how tough is it to outmaneuver a heatseeking missile. So flares remain the only option.

No matter how much you reduce the IR signature, you can not decrease it to the levels where the IR seeker fails to recognize the plane.

All that fuel being burnt, all that energy being generated has to have a signature. Maybe in future we might find a way to reduce it or make it less evident from certain angles, but nothing as of yet.

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## SQ8

jagjitnatt said:


> IR suppression is not very effective as of yet.
> Reason being that almost all IR missiles are short range missiles, and if an IR missile is being launched from 10-15 kms, there is little to nothing you can do to suppress the IR signature of the aircraft. The seeker will find the aircraft.
> 
> The only chance is to outmaneuver the missile or use of flares. We know how tough is it to outmaneuver a heatseeking missile. So flares remain the only option.
> 
> No matter how much you reduce the IR signature, you can not decrease it to the levels where the IR seeker fails to recognize the plane.
> 
> All that fuel being burnt, all that energy being generated has to have a signature. Maybe in future we might find a way to reduce it or make it less evident from certain angles, but nothing as of yet.



Considering that the newer seekers are fairly resistant to being decoyed by even the more intense flares.. It is quite likely that maneuverability will soon take a backseat when it comes to the close in knife fights..
even then.. high instantaneous turn rates will matter more I suppose..
the first shot being the one that matters.. 
With almost all new combat aircraft armed with HMS... the idea of having to fight WVR would be dangerous for anybody.


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## jagjitnatt

santro said:


> Considering that the newer seekers are fairly resistant to being decoyed by even the more intense flares.. It is quite likely that maneuverability will soon take a backseat when it comes to the close in knife fights..
> even then.. high instantaneous turn rates will matter more I suppose..
> the first shot being the one that matters..
> With almost all new combat aircraft armed with HMS... the idea of having to fight WVR would be dangerous for anybody.



Yes. High instantaneous turns can defeat a missile in some cases.

Also I'd like to say that flares aren't outdated yet. A couple of flares can be distinguished from an aircraft. But a wall of flares can not be distinguished by a seeker. So if an aircraft launches a lot of flares, and uses those flares as a wall between the aircraft and the missile, it might lose the missile easily.

Dogfights are going to get deadly in the future, its no longer the time when you could tail another aircraft for minutes before taking it down. Its only a matter of seconds these days, and most of the times, the opponent gets destroyed before entering visual range.


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## Thomas

jagjitnatt said:


> Yes. High instantaneous turns can defeat a missile in some cases.
> 
> Also I'd like to say that flares aren't outdated yet. A couple of flares can be distinguished from an aircraft. *But a wall of flares can not be distinguished by a seeker. So if an aircraft launches a lot of flares, and uses those flares as a wall between the aircraft and the missile, it might lose the missile easily.*
> Dogfights are going to get deadly in the future, its no longer the time when you could tail another aircraft for minutes before taking it down. Its only a matter of seconds these days, and most of the times, the opponent gets destroyed before entering visual range.



I believe the AIM-9X can 


YouTube - AIM-9x SIDEWINDER Trial

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## jagjitnatt

Developereo said:


> To defeat IR seekers, can you not turn off the engines after releasing the flares and drop out of the sky?
> 
> Turn 'em back on once the missile has hit the flares.



It doesn't work. The engines are so hot already, they have a high IR signature for minutes even after engine switch off.

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## Thomas

Developereo said:


> To defeat IR seekers, can you not turn off the engines after releasing the flares and drop out of the sky?
> 
> Turn 'em back on once the missile has hit the flares.



I would think that would be a pretty dangerous manuver and still not practical since they are generally close in missiles. I doubt you could cool the engines down fast enough. Chogy being a pilot could say better.

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## jagjitnatt

Thomas said:


> I believe the AIM-9X can
> 
> 
> YouTube - AIM-9x SIDEWINDER Trial



The video you posted shows how effective heatseeking missiles are. Exactly my point.

But in every case, the flares were being dispensed in a different direction. And missiles today are capable of distinguishing a flare from an aircraft.

I was talking about a scenario in which the missile has to pass through flares to get to the aircraft. I know it is a very rare chance, but that's the only way to evade heat seeking missiles today.


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## Thomas

jagjitnatt said:


> The video you posted shows how effective heatseeking missiles are. Exactly my point.
> 
> But in every case, the flares were being dispensed in a different direction. And missiles today are capable of distinguishing a flare from an aircraft.
> 
> I was talking about a scenario in which the missile has to pass through flares to get to the aircraft. I know it is a very rare chance, but that's the only way to evade heat seeking missiles today.



Your right IR missiles are effective. But keep in mind not all IR missiles are equal. Not all countries have kept up with technology. They are still using missiles developed 15-20 years ago.


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## gambit

santro said:


> Uh gambit.. would not the newer generation IR seekers that pick up the heat at the leading edges and in some cases the complete airframe itself..ala.. Python 5...or 9x..negate the IR suppression advantage??


Yes...That is correct. However, infrared sources such as leading edges from a complex body do not provide the seeker as much 'localization' of an IR source as the engines do. Seekers are programmed to focus on a body's highest concentration of IR emissions. The body itself provides the background contrast for the engines. In the case of a frontal view, leading edge IR emissions depends on the aircraft's speed, the higher the greater, and if there are insufficient contrast between the leading edges and the aircraft's fuselage, or even against background, above a certain threshold, then there is insufficient 'localization' for the seeker.

There is a complex relationship between array dimension, the amount of IR sensors in an array, and the ratio of activated sensors versus inactive sensors. The total amount of sensors *DO NOT* determine array dimension. A lot people confuse the two items. It is the spacing between individual sensors that determine array dimension. Sensor technology is a major factor, of course. The more sensors we pack inside an area, the greater the ratio between activated sensors versus inactive ones we can have when we come up on an IR source, which lead us to -- fusing distance.

Fusing distance is the range between the missile and the target when the missile detonate. The closer the detonation the greater the damages to the target. Say we have 100 IR sensors in an array. In one situation, we have 50 activated sensors but there is no 'localization' of these activated ones. In another situation, we have only 30 activated sensors but they are highly concentrated in a corner of the array. We then program the flight controls to accept guidance commands to turn the missile so that these 30 activated sensors begin to 'move' across the array until this 'localization' is centered. As the missile approaches the target, we expect to have an increase of activated sensors versus inactive ones. Once this ratio crossed a certain threshold, we detonate and this is the fusing distance. We have to expect the target to maneuver. As the target maneuvers, it is possible that the amount of activated sensors can decrease or increase inside a time frame. So inside this time frame, what is the ratio between activated sensors versus inactive ones *AND* the rate of changes that we are willing to tolerate before we could lose the target?

So for leading edge IR detection, we do not have as localized IR sources as the engines do across the array. Not only that, they are not as strong as the engines. The activated sensors, or pixels, are spread out across the array. As the target maneuver, we will have x-y changes and rate of changes for activated pixels compared to inactive ones. What is the threshold for loss of activated pixels, and we have to expect there will be losses compared to the constancy of the engines, before we alert the pilot that we have an IR lock? Remember the fusing distance criteria.

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## SQ8

But then.. by increasing pixels.. is it not possible to greatly diminish the chances of a false "hit" on the recognition algo?
Say a flare or focused IR beam on the seeker?


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## gambit

Infrared characterization of jet engine exhaust plumes


> The focus of current research is the measurement, modeling, and simulation of the spatial, temporal and spectral *behavior of gaseous radiation from a jet engine exhaust plume.* Infrared imaging using a scanning infrared camera has been used as a flow visualization technique.



is it possible to create a jet engine system with a cold exhaust or by-product? | Automotive Gallery, Videos, Preview, News and Store


> is it possible to have a military jet, witha cold exhaust. like a cold after burner? can u produce a form of thrust large enough to propel an aircraft at super sonic speeds with a by-product being cold i know the jet engine is just vapopr burning, thrust creating the flame but is there another form? can u create a military jet with a very low if not no infa-red signature? if a stealth aircraft were to be fired and the missile was a heat seeking one, there would be no hope for the missile. and if it was radar guided, and the aircraft was stealthy and manueverable, it would greatly increase the pilots chance of survival just an idea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to propel itself, an airplane needs to expend energy. And no matter how carefully done, this incurs a raise in overall entropy. To get some air to move faster than the environment creates eddies on the boundary of the jet flow, and those eddies will dissipate by raising the temperature.
> Every form of energy will eventually dissipate in heat.
> So, the short answer to your question is: no, unfortunately.
> The laws of physics do not allow for perfectly cold energy.
> What you can do is *dissipate the heat over a larger volume so that the exhaust plume is bigger but colder overall (but still contains the same amount of waste heat.* Stealth aircraft use that technology to reduce their infra red signature (a bigger plume that is not as bright in infra red is more easily missed than a very bright tiny one  one can easily spot a star in the night sky, but the same amount of light over a larger area is very hard to distinguish  explaining why flares can be used to distract an incoming missile).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Take note of the question and the highlighted answer. On a turbofan engine we can mix much cooler bypass air into the exhaust plume to reduce its IR emission. The operative word is *'MIX'*. If inefficiently designed, the much cooler bypass air can actually insulate and stabilize the *SHAPE* of the hot exhaust plume, allowing for higher IR emission, longer in duration, and further in distance away from the aircraft. A circular nozzle already set the stage for this potentiality in that the circular plume has the smallest surface area -- dissipatively speaking -- compared to its volume.

Any wonder why the B-2, F-117, and F-22 has non-circular exhaust? The F-117's exhaust has the lowest IR emission, not more because its engines are non-afterburners, but more because they do not have exhaust plumes. The exhaust flow volume is spread over a much larger surface area via those narrow nozzles and cools much more quickly.

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## gambit

santro said:


> But then.. by increasing pixels.. is it not possible to greatly diminish the chances of a false "hit" on the recognition algo?
> Say a flare or focused IR beam on the seeker?


Yes...That is why IR missiles have been gaining lethality as technology improves.

But the main problem is still about discrimination when the IR seeker sees multiple IR sources that are localized across its array but those IR sources are within a statistical range of intensity among themselves. The analogy is looking at a section of the night sky and sees several stars with similar brightness level. Because we know that this is a flight environment, therefore each IR source will have different behaviors, we can install a 'target adaptive guidance' (TAG) algorithm, assign to each IR source this algorithm, track their behaviors, and decide which IR source is most likely the true target. Because an IR emission cannot give us range or 'z' axis information, we have to rely on x-y changes across the array in order for the TAG algorithm to work. This combination of array technology and software sophistication increases an IR missile's lethality.

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## Irfan Baloch

santro said:


> Considering that the newer seekers are fairly resistant to being decoyed by even the more intense flares.. It is quite likely that maneuverability will soon take a backseat when it comes to the close in knife fights..
> even then.. high instantaneous turn rates will matter more I suppose..
> the first shot being the one that matters..
> With almost all new combat aircraft armed with HMS... the idea of having to fight WVR would be dangerous for anybody.



just reminds me a comment about F-22 that it might be one of the last "manned" fighter jet.. looking at the advances of missiles. it seems that only advanced combat drones will be the answer of future air combat.
taking out the "weak link" i.e. human out of the fighter would give far more flexibility and oppertunity in design & capability to the designers considering what a present day "manned" combat plane has to face.

I know again there will be an aother stalemate when all options will be exhausted in unmanned drones untill a new technology redefines the concepts and everyone gets on the drawing board from start.


----------



## Anti_Zionist

indianrabbit said:


> Pakistan and India follow entierly different way of purchasing the equipment. While India plans ahead in time and thinks for years ahead. Pakistan on the other hand looks more at current threat or recent future threat like 3 to 5 years. They have been very smart as well, we bought AWACS after years of lobbying planning etc. The moment the deal was made Pakistan got something similar from SWEDEN, pretty much in the same time as India.
> 
> So I guess when they will see in coming 3 to 5 years when PAK-FA will be possible, they will then start thinking about their options and buy something off the shelf.
> 
> I guess right now they are banking on China and trust me China will give them JXX when they make it.




My friend your air chief said that IAF has 50 % of its equipment in no go condition.You call this future planning? its not future planning to buy 250-300 5G jets, future planning is to make cheap awesome ones at home(JF-17) got the point my buddy?


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## SQ8

Sticks and stones perhaps..?


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## jagjitnatt

l094421 said:


> My friend your air chief said that IAF has 50 % of its equipment in no go condition.You call this future planning? its not future planning to buy 250-300 5G jets, future planning is to make cheap awesome ones at home(JF-17) got the point my buddy?



Your air chief marshal never said it, but more than 70% of your air force is also junk.

We both know our air forces are not in good shape and we are fielding half a decade old aircraft. So lets not get into it.

And 250-300 5th gen aircraft are the future. IAF will be one of the strongest air forces in a decade.

And please don't tell me how JF-17 is the super awesome plane. We all know better.


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## Storm Force

io4991.

The cheap awesome Plane JF17 currentl;y being lencse asembled from Kits supplied from China Chengdu company is a low cost meduim tech fighter. 

It may be awesome in your eyes and is awesome infront of 75&#37; of the PAFS current fleet of F7 & MIRAGES but is it a wise choice for next 20 years. 

I,.m assuming the Thunder will serve until 2030 minimum. 

If that is the case it will have to take on all of these 

su30mki, mirage 2000, mig29 today 

su30mki LCA tejas mk1 & 2 MMRCA between 2012-2020

FGFA post 2020 

For country on a tight budget well documentated is it stil a wise choice to blow $ billions on Thunder


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## Storm Force

io4991.



I agree with your comment 50&#37; of the IAF being obselete its 100% accurate. 

Thats 300+ mig21/mig27 m that he refers too. 

But look what their being replaced true 4 gen fighters 

SU30MKI, MMRCA TEJAS... LCA

None of these are cheap even Tekjas starts at $30m due to expensive American & israeli parts


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## mjnaushad

> The cheap awesome Plane JF17 currentl;y *being lencse asembled from Kits supplied from China *Chengdu company is a low cost meduim tech fighter.



Get over it storm force.

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## TaimiKhan

mjnaushad said:


> Get over it storm force.



They can't, even if they want to, they simply can't.

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## Indestructible

It is funny to see all these (I would call) "haters" bashing JF-17 when nobody knows the true potential of the plane. PAF knows its business well! 

JF-17---counter--->Migs, Mirages, Other 
F-16---counter--->SU-30
J-10B(Highly Upgraded)---counter--->MMRCA.

It is very clear from PAF's current strategy. Though many won't agree.

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## Irfan Baloch

TaimiKhan said:


> They can't, even if they want to, they simply can't.



their pain is evident...

whether the JF-17 plane is capible or not doesnt matter because its done the job


just like what a Muslim guy said.." it doesnt matter if it rhymes or not.. but it busted your A hole"


similar is the situation here ...

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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> io4991.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your comment 50% of the IAF being obselete its 100% accurate.
> 
> Thats 300+ mig21/mig27 m that he refers too.
> 
> But look what their being replaced true 4 gen fighters
> 
> SU30MKI, MMRCA TEJAS... LCA
> 
> *None of these are cheap even Tekjas starts at $30m due to expensive American & israeli parts*





What an idiot....

At least you admit Tejas is nothing close to being Indian......


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## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> io4991.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your comment 50% of the IAF being obselete its 100% accurate.
> 
> Thats 300+ mig21/mig27 m that he refers too.
> 
> But look what their being replaced true 4 gen fighters
> 
> SU30MKI, MMRCA TEJAS... LCA
> 
> None of these are cheap even Tekjas starts at $30m due to expensive American & israeli parts



If you wanna be blind IAF fanboy then let you reply you in same fashion. I will be bit more realistic.

Basically When PAF inducts Chinese stealth fighters around 2020 and if within couple of years a war breaks between Ind and PAk then PAF is firstly gonna destroy IAF radar installation and wipe out entire IAF PAK-FA fleet and repeat the 65 war pathankot history.


----------



## Indian-Devil

Growler said:


> If you wanna be blind IAF fanboy then let you reply you in same fashion. I will be bit more realistic.
> 
> Basically When PAF inducts Chinese stealth fighters around 2020 and if within couple of years a war breaks between Ind and PAk then *PAF is firstly gonna destroy IAF radar installation and wipe out entire IAF PAK-FA fleet and repeat the 65 war pathankot history*.



Ohh Really ??? PAF will destroy IAF Radars and PAK-FA and IAF will be sitting idle?? Donot act like a fanboy & pls stop day dreaming and come to reality.


----------



## AMCA

Growler said:


> If you wanna be blind IAF fanboy then let you reply you in same fashion. I will be bit more realistic.
> 
> Basically When PAF inducts Chinese stealth fighters around 2020 and if within couple of years a war breaks between Ind and PAk then PAF is firstly gonna destroy IAF radar installation and wipe out entire IAF PAK-FA fleet and repeat the 65 war pathankot history.



Well Well Well...... This Is All Gonna Happen When a Big "IF" is Put before "PAF inducts Chinese stealth fighters around 2020" , And That IF really dosent have any Significance as We all Know Neither Is Your Economy too strong to Equip your Forces with the Latest Gadgetry nor are the Chinese Stupid enough to Give you the aircraft which will form the backbone Of PLAAF for a Decade or two....

Lets Imagine even if they Give, Do You really think You can Penetrate Into our Airspace??? And the best part which you said was Destroying our PAK FA fleet with your Yet to be Negotiated Fighter Jet... , and You call us Dreamers huh???

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## Stealth

*i just clear that image in photoshop take a look.*


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## Tajdar adil

PAF need joint productions of JXX with China.


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## Indestructible

Russian 5th generation won't be maturing so early too dear. Even F-22 has some "great" flaws in certain areas and F-35 hasn't completed testing yet. They are still, saying technically, maturing. If PAF does induct the China's so called JXX, they would have plenty of time to make their pilots at home with the new platform. IAF won't put a test-bed against proven killers if a war breaks out instead they would use their trusted planes. So I think a 5th generation aerial fight is a far-cry in the next decade.


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## AMCA

Indestructible said:


> Russian 5th generation won't be maturing so early too dear. Even F-22 has some "great" flaws in certain areas and F-35 hasn't completed testing yet. They are still, saying technically, maturing. If PAF does induct the China's so called JXX, they would have plenty of time to make their pilots at home with the new platform. IAF won't put a test-bed against proven killers if a war breaks out instead they would use their trusted planes. So I think a 5th generation aerial fight is a far-cry in the next decade.



What do You mean by *"Trusted Planes?"*, Obviously the IR signatures would be measured right? inorder to Confirm it stealth and The Systems are Evolved from the Previous war tested Aircrafts of Russian Origin which Has been Proved Time and Again... 

One Fails Dosent mean Another one Cannot Succeed.... If USA cannot do it, That dosent mean No one else in the World Can...


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## lmjiao

Ë¿´øÌÖÂÛ×¨Ìû(¸÷ÀàÍ¼Æ¬¾ùºÏÔÚ±¾Ìù£¬28ÈÕ¸üÐÂ)[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base

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## Anti_Zionist

jagjitnatt said:


> Your air chief marshal never said it, but more than 70% of your air force is also junk.
> 
> We both know our air forces are not in good shape and we are fielding half a decade old aircraft. So lets not get into it.
> 
> And 250-300 5th gen aircraft are the future. IAF will be one of the strongest air forces in a decade.
> 
> And please don't tell me how JF-17 is the super awesome plane. We all know better.



Jf-17 pe tele kyon lag jate hai.. I am not comparing JF-17 with F-22 or anyother FPz i am saying that future planning is not to buy a bulk of planes its to make them home.Take a initiative and work on it.While You think russia wants anyone else to become the top air force in the world let alone India Dhaa!!! you will not surely get the best technology from them,they'll keep em for themselves...thats what my logic says i know you'll surely disagree.


----------



## Anti_Zionist

Storm Force said:


> io4991.
> 
> The cheap awesome Plane JF17 currentl;y being lencse asembled from Kits supplied from China Chengdu company is a low cost meduim tech fighter.
> 
> It may be awesome in your eyes and is awesome infront of 75% of the PAFS current fleet of F7 & MIRAGES but is it a wise choice for next 20 years.
> 
> I,.m assuming the Thunder will serve until 2030 minimum.
> 
> If that is the case it will have to take on all of these
> 
> su30mki, mirage 2000, mig29 today
> 
> su30mki LCA tejas mk1 & 2 MMRCA between 2012-2020
> 
> FGFA post 2020
> 
> For country on a tight budget well documentated is it stil a wise choice to blow $ billions on Thunder



They can buy 1000 4 or 5G FJs from anyone i dont give a damn.!! i am a supporter of making stuff at home,yes cooperation is indeed necessary..PAF taking a logical and firm step otherwise anyone can buy em..and we are well and truly making them and even about to sell them with a huge co-op from china..IAF can go on buying and PAF is now on the way to selling..


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## Anti_Zionist

jagjitnatt said:


> Your air chief marshal never said it, but more than 70% of your air force is also junk.
> 
> We both know our air forces are not in good shape and we are fielding half a decade old aircraft. So lets not get into it.
> 
> And 250-300 5th gen aircraft are the future. IAF will be one of the strongest air forces in a decade.
> 
> And please don't tell me how JF-17 is the super awesome plane. We all know better.



PAF is in good shape i dont agree with your comment but you yourself saying yours not in good shape...


----------



## Stealth

*Frankly speaking the aircraft is real or not but indian's burning like hell i dont know why  lolzzzzzz

before indians only talking about MMRCA or sometime PAKFA but now ub tu pore pore fleet ginwarahay hain hamaray paas ye hey hamaray paas ye hey lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz aakir dar kya laga hey bhai *

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## S-A-B-E-R->

lmjiao said:


> Ë¿´øÌÖÂÛ×¨Ìû(¸÷ÀàÍ¼Æ¬¾ùºÏÔÚ±¾Ìù£¬28ÈÕ¸üÐÂ)[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base



hey wts the yellow thing between its tails ?


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## Guest

just a few points

1) modern infrared missiles, like PL-9, can be programed to hit the cockpit (so as to kill the pilot), which means the seeker can distinguish minute difference of infrared signiture between the fuselage. so even if you shut down and cool the engine, it won't help.

2) maintaining a 5th gen fighter is not easy, for matured fighters like F-16, only 80&#37; of them are combact ready at anytime; for new jets like F-22 the number is said to be 50-60%. So if PAF is going to cut 100 JF 17 and/or 36 FC20 to induct a dozen J-20, are they enough to secure the air.

3) the 21 century combat is mainly system confrontation, having the best fighters or tanks may not guarantee a victory. think about this, why we need a fighter? to escort/intercept the bombers.
why we need a bomber? to destory enemy targets.
even if we stop here, it is obvious that fighter is not a must if we can destory the enemy targets (like using CMs).
however, is destroying enemy targets the ultimate goal for a war?


----------



## monitor12345

Storm Force said:


> Realistically by the the time the First FC20 enter PAF in 2015 THE fgfa COULD be only 2 -3 years away from IOC with IAF.
> 
> Once PAF comits the $1.5 billion to buy 40+ fighters that money has gone on what will be PAFs frontline state of the ART FIGHTER FOR NEXT 20 YEARS..IE 2015-2035 AND i assume they will want more than just 40....
> 
> For this reason i would go Thunder 200+
> 
> Then striAght to JXX and Give FC20 A MISS esp if the gap between Thunder and FC20 is not large in tech terms. afterall both are essentially single engined multi role platforms.
> 
> JXX will be a twin engined super stealth multi role fighter with vast range TVC and very small RCS and complete new senso fusion work.
> 
> They will eat the IAF SU30MKI fleet and even scare the MMRCA TYPHOONS if IAF buys those too.
> 
> FC20 will not give the numerically inferior PAF fleet a tech edge over mki or mmrca that it needs as the smaller air power.



Without 5th generation, stealth fighter, PAF will be easily defeated by IAF. Even 126 MMRCAs are enough to deal with PAF ( F-16s, JF-17, J-10s ), because they are better than anything PAF has got, even J-10s which PAF will get in 2018. Definitely, India has almost won the race with PAF. Because, We see that , when PAF was signing contracts for JF-17, India was signing for Su-30 MKI when PAF is signing for J-10s ( approximately same ) India has now signed 5th gen , stealth , PAK-FA.


----------



## Stealth



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## DESERT FIGHTER

monitor12345 said:


> Without 5th generation, stealth fighter, *PAF will be easily defeated by IAF*. Even 126 *MMRCAs are enough to deal with PAF ( F-16s, JF-17, J-10s *), because they are better than anything PAF has got, even *J-10s which PAF will get in 2018*.



Yes ur so smart......


----------



## siegecrossbow

Once again I think that if China is going to exchange the stealth technology at all the first recipient will be Pakistan. There are rumors that a "light" variant of the J-XX is under development at the SAC. That may be China's exported version.


----------



## Rafi

You know nothing, even the current force, was more than a match for india - that is why after Mumbai there was no retaliation. And if God Forbid the PAF was destroyed then it would be one of the triggers for a nuke strike.


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## Stealth

siegecrossbow said:


> Once again I think that if China is going to exchange the stealth technology at all the first recipient will be Pakistan. There are rumors that a "light" variant of the J-XX is under development at the SAC. That may be China's exported version.



I bet on this if Pakistan will show some money for this aircraft China will share what China will use for herself! about export version, might be China will make some lighter version for export but for PAkistan i am pretty sure china will go for what he go for herself!


----------



## monitor12345

Storm Force said:


> Many people believe the below image to be a protrotype of the china JXX effort.
> 
> Chinese Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation
> 
> Any nation with a $2 trillion FOREX and already building FC20 class fighters can surely move into a FIFTH gen project sooner or later.
> 
> THE BIG QUESTION will PAF try to join the project as india has done with RUSSIA ON PAK FA



PAF has no option, but to join Chinese 5th generation J-XX fighter project.


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## Rafi

And your point is, india has no choice but to join Russian project


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## Stealth

monitor12345 said:


> PAF has no option, but to join Chinese 5th generation J-XX fighter project.



Ya Pakistan and PAkistan Military do what you want and before go for anything Gen Kiyani and ISI chief discuss every matter of PAkistan with you!


----------



## monitor12345

Rafi said:


> You know nothing, even the current force, was more than a match for india - that is why after Mumbai there was no retaliation. And if God Forbid the PAF was destroyed then it would be one of the triggers for a nuke strike.



Correct, but PAFs slight superiority is going to end or ended now. Now IAF has got 125 Su-30 MKIs. Since 126 ( +74 ) MRCAs and 5th gen PAK-FA will both be inducted around 2018. Lets face it.


----------



## monitor12345

Stealth said:


> Ya Pakistan and PAkistan Military do what you want and before go for anything Gen Kiyani and ISI chief discuss every matter of PAkistan with you!



Do u have a better solution ?


----------



## Stealth

monitor12345 said:


> Correct, but PAFs slight superiority is going to end or ended now. Now IAF has got 125 Su-30 MKIs. Since 126 ( +74 ) MRCAs and 5th gen PAK-FA will both be inducted around 2018. Lets face it.



We face you kid .. but u cant! where is your so called super duper surgical strike ?? lol

dont make this topic india china or india pakistan war! we know even the aircraft is real or not but you guyz burning like hell!!

even PDF forum color is bling bling black n smokki because of your burning lolzzzzzzzz    

before you just telling eveyone about mmrca and sometime pakfa and sometime Mki and since these pics published either real or not you guys even telling full fleet of your airforce even those who even enter after 10 years lol that we have this and we have thats whats the problem .... you guyz loook actually frustrate or what ??   chill kid ...

dont worry this aircraft is just a model and PLAAF just made this for museum  

*
Chinese engineers, they&#180;re catching up much quicker than anyone anticipated. *

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## monitor12345

Stealth said:


> We face you kid .. but u cant! where is your so called super duper surgical strike ?? lol
> 
> dont make this topic india china or india pakistan war! we know even the aircraft is real or not but you guyz burning like hell!!
> 
> even PDF forum color is bling bling black n smokki because of your burning lolzzzzzzzz
> 
> before you just telling eveyone about mmrca and sometime pakfa and sometime Mki and since these pics published either real or not you guys even telling full fleet of your airforce even those who even enter after 10 years lol that we have this and we have thats whats the problem .... you guyz loook actually frustrate or what ??   chill kid ...
> 
> dont worry this aircraft is just a model and PLAAF just made this for museum
> 
> *
> Chinese engineers, they´re catching up much quicker than anyone anticipated. *



Dont take kids lightly. Remember who killed Abu Jahel.

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## Storm Force

The Chinease declined the PAK FA project with Russia.

Now we know why. CHINA has its own 5th gen project. 

As For PAF " well i started this thread well before these pics came out" ACTUALLY ADVOCATING paf should be busting a lung to get the JXX in 2020. or before because i think it will hit PLAAF around 2018... 

The cost will be $100m each easily it will probably cost 3 times as much as a Thunder to maintain each flight. Can PAF afford them even in 2020.

More importantly are THE chinease even looking to export this to anyone. OR WILL THEY DO same as America with F22 ??? 

As for now i,m glad i started the debate 1 week ago.


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## Manticore

Storm Force said:


> The cost will be $100m each easily it will probably cost 3 times as much as a Thunder to maintain each flight. Can PAF afford them even in 2020.
> 
> More importantly are THE chinease even looking to export this to anyone. OR WILL THEY DO same as America with F22 ???
> 
> As for now i,m glad i started the debate 1 week ago.



cost of jxx 3x of jf17==will be clear in the next 5 years

economy of pak AFTER 10 years== useless speculation

will china export it == to paf, YES as both china and pak need sufficient strength at both boders to 'sandwitch' india-thus dividing india's army on 2 fronts-- its in the interest of both friendly countries

the friendship between pak and china is unprecedented-- they gifted [for free] the inital batch of f6 to us , when that was the best plane they had !


ANTIstealth methods--- i suggest u to read ,the innovations and stratedgies russia, greece, china etc have started in this field --in those respective forums

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## aimarraul

AMCA said:


> Well Well Well...... This Is All Gonna Happen When a Big "IF" is Put before "PAF inducts Chinese stealth fighters around 2020" , And That IF really dosent have any Significance as We all Know Neither Is Your Economy too strong to Equip your Forces with the Latest Gadgetry nor are the Chinese Stupid enough to Give you the aircraft which will form the backbone Of PLAAF for a Decade or two....
> 
> Lets Imagine even if they Give, Do You really think You can Penetrate Into our Airspace??? And the best part which you said was Destroying our PAK FA fleet with your Yet to be Negotiated Fighter Jet... , and You call us Dreamers huh???



if russia is willing to share T-50 with india for $,why wouldn't china share JXX with pakistan for the common strategic interests, not to mention china has more than one 5th gen program under-development,remember there is not end for R&D,some engineers may start pre-research of next gen fighter after JXX make the first flight.BTW,j10 will be the backbone of PLAAf in the next decade,PAF will get it around 2015 anyway

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## Fennecus

I think China will withhold certain components if there is to be an export version. Though, like the J-10, Pakistan will probably receive a variant that will be better than what China offers to others.

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## secam

Planes can be sold at price, but friends indeed are priceless. china will always stand behind parkistan. If necessary, 5th is also no problem for Sharing with friends. But in my opinion, the most importance and urgency is to develop the economy. War actually is some kinds of burning money. Developing weapon is very expensive for china, and also a huge burden for parkistan to buy

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## secam

All the variants of JF-17 and J-10 are made according to the requirements of PAF by the best of china' ability

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## chengdusudise



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## mughaljee

secam said:


> Planes can be sold at price, but friends indeed are priceless. china will always stand behind parkistan.



Chaa Gayah Bahy. Cheeta Lagyan Aay Sonayah

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## hardlynochoice

It is said that, India will have the future and SK has got the past, fortunately, these 2 super powers left the present to other countries...

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## Manticore

mughaljee said:


> Chaa Gayah Bahy. Cheeta Lagyan Aay Sonayah




*translation for my chinese friends--*

just like a majestic tiger , you have dominated and encompassed in great spirit ,the discussion at hand

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## Stealth



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## Stealth

*CLEAR PICS *

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## scuthan

Stealth said:


> *CLEAR PICS *



Do you still think it is a PS work now.

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## Indestructible

Killer looks!!!! Why aren't any news out regarding this?


----------



## mshoaib61




----------



## Avatar

It looks better than I expected. Let's hope to see the first flight video.


----------



## Indestructible

In the third picture, there is an open compartment at the side of the plane. Any ideas what is it?


----------



## Ghostwhowalks

one question- is the PAF going to be getting this jet as and when it is ready or will china keep it like the F-22 and have it exclusively for themselves? by the looks of it, 2020-2025 looks to be a realistic timeframe for its induction since the engine being used is still a Russian powerplant.


----------



## jagjitnatt

Indestructible said:


> In the third picture, there is an open compartment at the side of the plane. Any ideas what is it?



That is where the landing gear will retract.



Ghostwhowalks said:


> one question- is the PAF going to be getting this jet as and when it is ready or will china keep it like the F-22 and have it exclusively for themselves? by the looks of it, 2020-2025 looks to be a realistic timeframe for its induction since the engine being used is still a Russian powerplant.



I think China will keep this one exclusive for now. If it gets inducted by 2020, serial production will go on till 2028 or something. That is when China will have around 250 of these jets.

It is only then that China will start exporting these. As it is Pakistan first needs to introduce a low end fighter ie JF-17 to replace all old aircraft, then find an alternative to old F-16s, ie J10.

Only when both the tasks are accomplished somewhere in 2020, will Pakistan think of getting these. It would take sometime for placing order and customization, and China might remove some exclusive features, and deliver Pak by 2027-30 time frame.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

Ghostwhowalks said:


> one question- is the PAF going to be getting this jet as and when it is ready or will china keep it like the F-22 and have it exclusively for themselves? by the looks of it, 2020-2025 looks to be a realistic timeframe for its induction since the engine being used is still a Russian powerplant.



Considering that India will get PAKFA, then PAF will definitely get this before 2020. 

And the powered twin-engines are nowhere Russian by any shape, and the witness in Chengdu can also confirm that they were not using any Russian engine for the flight test. Jane definitely got wrong on the information about the engine.


----------



## Ghostwhowalks

> Considering that India will get PAKFA, then PAF will definitely get this before 2020



Highly unlikely. This plane will not even see IOC by then and you expect PAF to induct it by 2020????

India will be lucky if it gets PAKFA by 2020 and that plane is being developed by one of the world's premier aircraft corporations- cutting edge technologies are not something that can be developed and perfected overnight.

Chengdu is still taking baby steps in aircraft development so unless they have hit upon some magic wand, I dont see how they can leapfrog on this one. However, their recent efforts have been truly commendable and they will be a force to reckon with in future.




> And the engine is nowhere Russian by any shape, and the witness in Chengdu can also confirm that they were not using any Russian engine for the flight test. Jane definitely got wrong on the information about the engine



"Witnesses"? you mean the people who are supposed to have taken these spy shots with long range cameras. Or people who work at Chengdu? Or your uncle's cow's feeder's cousin whose girlfriend happens to work as a chef at a company that supplies packed meals to Chengdu?.... SHEESH....grow up will ya? 

Jane's is the most authoritative source on defence out there and to debunk it, you need something more credible than this....

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## ChineseTiger1986

Ghostwhowalks said:


> Highly unlikely. This plane will not even see IOC by then and you expect PAF to induct it by 2020????
> 
> India will be lucky if it gets PAKFA by 2020 and that plane is being developed by one of the world's premier aircraft corporations- cutting edge technologies are not something that can be developed and perfected overnight.
> 
> Chengdu is still taking baby steps in aircraft development so unless they have hit upon some magic wand, I dont see how they can leapfrog on this one. However, their recent efforts have been truly commendable and they will be a force to reckon with in future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Witnesses"? you mean the people who are supposed to have taken these spy shots with long range cameras. Or people who work at Chengdu? Or your uncle's cow's feeder's cousin whose girlfriend happens to work as a chef at a company that supplies packed meals to Chengdu?.... SHEESH....grow up will ya?
> 
> Jane's is the most authoritative source on defence out there and to debunk it, you need something more credible than this....




Check the rear, they do not bear any resemblance to AL-31F. 










Since Jane haven't seen the aircraft by themselves, they can't know everything by 100&#37;.

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## lmjiao

Ghostwhowalks said:


> Highly unlikely. This plane will not even see IOC by then and you expect PAF to induct it by 2020????
> 
> India will be lucky if it gets PAKFA by 2020 and that plane is being developed by one of the world's premier aircraft corporations- cutting edge technologies are not something that can be developed and perfected overnight.
> 
> Chengdu is still taking baby steps in aircraft development so unless they have hit upon some magic wand, I dont see how they can leapfrog on this one. However, their recent efforts have been truly commendable and they will be a force to reckon with in future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Witnesses"? you mean the people who are supposed to have taken these spy shots with long range cameras. Or people who work at Chengdu? Or your uncle's cow's feeder's cousin whose girlfriend happens to work as a chef at a company that supplies packed meals to Chengdu?.... SHEESH....grow up will ya?
> 
> Jane's is the most authoritative source on defence out there and to debunk it, you need something more credible than this....



There are pictures. I'm not sure what it is, but not like AL-31






In my opinion it's Taihang, but still need clearer pics to confirm.


----------



## lmjiao

Ghostwhowalks said:


> Highly unlikely. This plane will not even see IOC by then and you expect PAF to induct it by 2020????
> 
> India will be lucky if it gets PAKFA by 2020 and that plane is being developed by one of the world's premier aircraft corporations- cutting edge technologies are not something that can be developed and perfected overnight.
> 
> Chengdu is still taking baby steps in aircraft development so unless they have hit upon some magic wand, I dont see how they can leapfrog on this one. However, their recent efforts have been truly commendable and they will be a force to reckon with in future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Witnesses"? you mean the people who are supposed to have taken these spy shots with long range cameras. Or people who work at Chengdu? Or your uncle's cow's feeder's cousin whose girlfriend happens to work as a chef at a company that supplies packed meals to Chengdu?.... SHEESH....grow up will ya?
> 
> Jane's is the most authoritative source on defence out there and to debunk it, you need something more credible than this....



Here are more pics:






still looks like WS-10/Taihang


----------



## Manticore

YouTube - Chinese J-20 / JXX 5th Generation Fighter Jet Unveiled
Chinese J-20 / JXX 5th Generation Fighter Jet Unveiled 
i just made it,might need to switch inbetween pixel quality to get audio

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## SQ8

There should be a new name for this revelation..
Chengduleaks.

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## Stealth




----------



## Dazzler

I have to say its looks are menacing to say the least especially from the front. A weak hearted opposing pilot will die in the cockpit 

Personally, i see the JXX as a high priority project for Chinese airforce and PAF is looking to fine tune the JFT with stealthy characteristics in near future from block 3 onwards. JXX for PAF is a bit too optimistic for quite a few years but than we have seen how deeply the two countries trust each other so you never know.


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## Myth_buster_1

The Terror plane!

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## Stealth

^ Man if this aircraft with Raptor style back the aircraft look more aggressive... what a sexy beast in look!!! hOpe specs wise as well!


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## kingdurgaking

Stealth said:


>



For some reason the pic looks like a photo shopped one atleast


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## SQ8

Its a wonder though.. that test pilot must need really soft hands to make sure he doesnt crack those gear doors.


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## Myth_buster_1




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## azfar

^isn't it too long? as compare to others


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## Myth_buster_1

azfar said:


> ^isn't it too long? as compare to others



it looks long cuz of its small rudders. other wise its about he same size as PAK_FA


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## monitor

santro said:


> There should be a new name for this revelation..
> Chengduleaks.



Yes of course some name is necessary . may be china leaks .org/chinese military leaks =chintaryleaks.org


----------



## Guest

Stealth said:


>



this is a very very weird pic, all the planes are supposed to be new. but what is the 6th ,the last, one? another secret plane?


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## monitor

some article from net 
*Chinas 5th Generation Fighter Exposed?
*
*



*
Chinese aerospace enthusiast could not wait for the first flight of the J-20, depicting the new fighter with much of the hypothetical design features in these impressive drawing. To get a better look at the actual design of the aircraft we'll have to wait for better pictures. 
Reports coming form internet sites in China have published images of a large, stealth-like aircraft that, if confirmed, could be the first hard evidence of Chinas new 5th Genaration multirole aircraft. The images show the parked aircraft being inspected, and taxiing along a taxiway. Analysts in the West accepted the images with some doubts, due to the Chinese in displaying imaginary facts but the photos released today seem genuine. recent reports coming from China mention Chengdu has recently completed two J-20 technology demonstrator aircraft sofar, one model will be used for the test flights and another one will be used for ground testing.
The development of such program was known for some time but has never officially attributed to a specific type or maker. In 2009 deputy commander of the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force He Weirong stated in a TV interview that China had multiple such programs underway and that an as-yet-undesignated fifth-generation fighter developed jointly by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation would be in service by 2017-2019. According to U.S. intelligence assessments Chinese 5th generation aircraft could become operational by the turn of the decade.




Comparative view of several 5th Generation stealth fighters sizes the new J-20 between the F-22A and Russian T-50. However, a top view indicates the Chinese design could be radically different from the U.S. or Russian planes. 
The impression here is of a big, long aircraft, 70+ feet from nose to tail, which would make sense for a number of reasons. Rob Hewson at Janes has reported that Russia has supplied 32,000-pound thrust 117S engines for the J-20, which would be adequate for an aircraft in the 80,000 pound class  with perhaps lower supercruise performance and agility than an F-22, but with larger weapon bays and more fuel writes aerospace analyst Bill Sweetman, editor of Aviation Week/DTI. Chinese sources have claimed that production aircraft will be powered by two 13,200kg/WS-10 class high thrust turbofan engines, coupled with Thrust Vector Controlled (TVC) nozzles both made in China. Russian assistance has been speculated with the supply of 14,000kg class Salyut 99M2 turbofan engines powering the prototypes. The Chinese could also get Russian assistance in radar cross section simulation for the new stealth design.


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## Storm Force

Growler its far larger than PAK FA 



The Chinease fighter is 70 ft long its a beast in size

in this picture the PAK FA looks smaller than Flankers 

Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> Growler its far larger than PAK FA
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinease fighter is 70 ft long its a beast in size
> 
> in this picture the PAK FA looks smaller than Flankers
> 
> Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA | Flickr - Photo Sharing!



Flanker and PAK-FA are about the same length when excluding flanker tailcone. 

j-20 looks larger cuz of its small rudder.


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## SomeGuy

Storm Force said:


> Growler its far larger than PAK FA
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinease fighter is 70 ft long its a beast in size
> 
> in this picture the PAK FA looks smaller than Flankers
> 
> Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA | Flickr - Photo Sharing!



70 ft (21 meters) is just a rough estimate from looking at photos so there is going to be a large margine of error.

According to Wikipedia:

A flanker is 73 ft (22 meters).
PAK-FA is 66 ft (20 meters).
Raptor is 62 ft (19 meters).

So even if it is 70 ft (21 meters) long, that's still a reasonable size for a twin engine long range heavy fighter.

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## xuwei

Deceleration umbrella

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## xuwei



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## mjnaushad

So PAF if interested in this have to deal with twin engines ...... Looks like thats why there were rumours of L15 .


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## xuwei



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## shanixee

I might be wrong but i hve got this feeling that J20 is FC20...i might be wrong but i hve this feeling because 

J8=F8
J6=F6
Q5=A5
and export varient of J10 is called F10 according to chinese sources


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## xuwei



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## Luftwaffe

Russian YAK-141





Notice JXX or whatever you may call it. 
Check the dorsal part Tail specially.


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## Luftwaffe

*I think China will keep this one exclusive for now. If it gets inducted by 2020, serial production will go on till 2028 or something. That is when China will have around 250 of these jets.*

We don't know..

250?? Are you Mocking PLAAF. 
Now China is leaping forward into the future They've the will money and ambitions to produce a thousand of them for a complete Air Dominance over Asia-Africa.

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## Anti_Zionist

It looks like a transformer!! lol is *PAF gonna buy this monster?* it looks like a living monster not a plane.


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## hataf

the most amassing part for me is the single piece bubble canopy really love it . . . . . 


and it is really the marvelous achievement by chinese aviation industry . . . . . . . 
 to

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## Luftwaffe

Ok nevermind, saw all of the pics, its different from yak-141 at first it look like a very rare resemblance of the tail part.


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## heyheyhey

Stealth said:


> We face you kid .. but u cant! where is your so called super duper surgical strike ?? lol
> 
> dont make this topic india china or india pakistan war! we know even the aircraft is real or not but you guyz burning like hell!!
> 
> even PDF forum color is bling bling black n smokki because of your burning lolzzzzzzzz
> 
> before you just telling eveyone about mmrca and sometime pakfa and sometime Mki and since these pics published either real or not you guys even telling full fleet of your airforce even those who even enter after 10 years lol that we have this and we have thats whats the problem .... you guyz loook actually frustrate or what ??   chill kid ...
> 
> dont worry this aircraft is just a model and PLAAF just made this for museum
> 
> *
> Chinese engineers, they´re catching up much quicker than anyone anticipated. *



Please tell me your secret....how on earth did you ever become an elite member with dumb posts like that?


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## shanixee

Friends I hve got a strong feeling that the pic we are seeing of J20 is not a prototype but a finished product...because the way it is appearing and the looks it is giving does not seem a prototype...its appearence is not a prototype...and even if we go back chinese does not allow to show pics of their prototypes and infact even does not accepted existence of J10 earler even when it was inducted...so in my view point its finished product...and might be FC20...


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## lmjiao

shanixee said:


> Friends I hve got a strong feeling that the pic we are seeing of J20 is not a prototype but a finished product...because the way it is appearing and the looks it is giving does not seem a prototype...its appearence is not a prototype...and even if we go back chinese does not allow to show pics of their prototypes and infact even does not accepted existence of J10 earler even when it was inducted...so in my view point its finished product...and might be FC20...



Names such as FC-1 or FC-20 don't exist until the plane is exported to other countries.
Now it's called J-20, and may have a name such as FC-XX when sold to PAF


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## Storm Force

i HAVE A FEELING THE CHINEASE WILL GET THIS TO IOC before The Indo Russian pak fa.

Defintely before the FGFA indian verasion anyways.

I guessing only JXX by 2017 
pak fa Russia 2018
FGFA FOR India 2020


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## SomeGuy

shanixee said:


> Friends I hve got a strong feeling that the pic we are seeing of J20 is not a prototype but a finished product...because the way it is appearing and the looks it is giving does not seem a prototype...its appearence is not a prototype...and even if we go back chinese does not allow to show pics of their prototypes and infact even does not accepted existence of J10 earler even when it was inducted...so in my view point its finished product...and might be FC20...



This is not the finished product. The finished product won't be using the engines you see in the pics, it will be using WS-15 engines and will probably have stealthier exhausts.


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## monitor




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## kafumanpk

This fighter (I doubt it's invisible effect), its head and the inlet is very beautiful, but other parts look like the MiG 1.44, the ugly.

China's designers seem to lack the aesthetic sense.I think it is designed to be a failure.It is a huge disaster.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

kafumanpk said:


> This fighter (I doubt it's invisible effect), its head and the inlet is very beautiful, but other parts look like the MiG 1.44, the ugly.
> 
> China's designers seem to lack the aesthetic sense.I think it is designed to be a failure.It is a huge disaster.



are u an aeronautical engineer........... if not, then plz avoid trolls.........

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## indiaissb

shanixee said:


> I might be wrong but i hve got this feeling that J20 is FC20...i might be wrong but i hve this feeling because
> 
> J8=F8
> J6=F6
> Q5=A5
> and export varient of J10 is called F10 according to chinese sources



hehe&#65292;F is called by english word,J is called by chinese word.


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## skybolt

*Friends.. i was googling and found new for me about J-XX ... so im Sharing *

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## skybolt



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## skybolt

In a 2009 television interview, He Weirong (&#20309;&#20026;&#33635, deputy commander of the People's Liberation Army Air Force, stated that *China had multiple such programs underway* and that an as-yet-undesignated fifth-generation fighter developed jointly by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation would be in service by 2017-2019. The test flight was conducted on December 11, 2010

J-XX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Quwa

mjnaushad said:


> So PAF if interested in this have to deal with twin engines ...... Looks like thats why there were rumours of L15 .


PAF will acquire a 5th generation fighter eventually...but I doubt it'd be J-20. It is reported that China has a second 5th generation fighter program, a lighter "lo-end" supplement for the presumably "hi-end" J-20. The lighter fighter might be offered to PAF 'in a few years...'

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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> PAF will acquire a 5th generation fighter eventually...but I doubt it'd be J-20. It is reported that China has a second 5th generation fighter program, a lighter "lo-end" supplement for the presumably "hi-end" J-20. The lighter fighter might be offered to PAF 'in a few years...'



PAF needs J-20 for deep strike.


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## F-16_Falcon

Growler said:


> PAF needs J-20 for deep strike.



When PAF getting this. Please share the news.


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## General General

The PAF is concentrating on inducting only single engine fighter aircrafts in it's 2009-2019 modernization program. These planes are F 16 blk 50+, JF 17 and the FC 20. Therefore, we cannot expect to see yet another induction by the PAF till atleast 2020. No airforce goes through this much change in just a decade.


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## Rafi

PAF - has considered 5th Generation developments - and they are well versed with the developments of our Sino Friends.


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## houshanghai

huitong's pic

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## Luftwaffe

*mr. kafumanpk This fighter (I doubt it's invisible effect), its head and the inlet is very beautiful, but other parts look like the MiG 1.44, the ugly.
China's designers seem to lack the aesthetic sense.I think it is designed to be a failure.It is a huge disaster. *

You are a disaster product of bharat rakshak. You words are exactly that of what are being said on a popular JXX thread on baharat rakshak. 

Aesthetic Sense has lead Chinese to design JXX, has more in common with YF-23/F-35 then mig 1.44. 

Specially for you and your friends: Grapes Are Sour

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## PakShaheen79

F-16_Falcon said:


> When PAF getting this. Please share the news.



Not before 2020. Come on guys, this thing has just shown up. It will take 5-6 years before it gets into PLAAF and 4-5 more years before its gets matured. China has its own needs and that's why they develop this thing in first place.

JF-17, J-10B, F-16s, Erieye, ZDK-03, BVR, IFR etc. there is too much to absorb to build tactical plans using these new additions to PAF. Acquiring a platform or weapon system and putting it into a working combat plan are two different things.

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## wangwei11607

I have the latest two pictures but I send out new registration


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## wangwei11607



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## wangwei11607



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## kafumanpk

Luftwaffe said:


> *mr. kafumanpk This fighter (I doubt it's invisible effect), its head and the inlet is very beautiful, but other parts look like the MiG 1.44, the ugly.
> China's designers seem to lack the aesthetic sense.I think it is designed to be a failure.It is a huge disaster. *
> 
> You are a disaster product of bharat rakshak. You words are exactly that of what are being said on a popular JXX thread on baharat rakshak.
> 
> Aesthetic Sense has lead Chinese to design JXX, has more in common with YF-23/F-35 then mig 1.44.
> 
> Specially for you and your friends: Grapes Are Sour





I think we should be positive comments this aircraft for any defects, because it can help designers improve. If all is the language of praise, there will be immersed in the wrong.

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## applesauce

kafumanpk said:


> I think we should be positive comments this aircraft for any defects, because it can help designers improve. If all is the language of praise, there will be immersed in the wrong.



first of all the DESIGNERS do not look at an online forum for advice from a bunch of people who have no idea what they are talking about, for instance YOU "designed to be a failure" how is that in any way a constructive comment? by all means discuss, for instance we(most of us) agree that the back end could be stealthier but refrain from tolling.

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## SBD-3

kafumanpk said:


> I think we should be positive comments this aircraft for any defects, because it can help designers improve. If all is the language of praise, there will be immersed in the wrong.



.....you know what?....we get such exrtemly stupid comments from only one group on whole earth...hint hint


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## Luftwaffe

kafumanpk..I am sure you are hiding behind another flag Moderators know it better so come out of hiding or face the wrath of Moderators to banish you. 

Check your glasses don't tell me you are a dress designer. 

I'm Positive enough that is why almost every member agrees it has its roots from YF-23/F-35 and much of its own being improved indigenous design.

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## kafumanpk

I believe that the aircraft is the wisdom of Chinese scientists. F22 and F35 are very beautiful, very cool. Objective comparison of the design of the United States and China, the Chinese have more like Russia. People often say that it is a beautiful performance fighter is the best. I have to stick to their point of view.


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## huzihaidao12

kafumanpk said:


> I believe that the aircraft is the wisdom of Chinese scientists. F22 and F35 are very beautiful, very cool. Objective comparison of the design of the United States and China, the Chinese have more like Russia. People often say that it is a beautiful performance fighter is the best. I have to stick to their point of view.



Your taste certainly have a big problem, because so many people's view is different and you, I went to a number of international forums, and their view is entirely different to you.


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## monitor

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/cybersurg/brf/china-j20-stealth10-length-2010.jpg

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## cross1993

I wonder if this bird could be powered by a pair of older tech Soloviev D-30F6 engines...


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## cross1993

PLA star. Yellow and Red.


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## fighter20

Luftwaffe said:


> kafumanpk..I am sure you are hiding behind another flag Moderators know it better so come out of hiding or face the wrath of Moderators to banish you.
> 
> Check your glasses don't tell me you are a dress designer.
> 
> I'm Positive enough that is why almost every member agrees it has its roots from YF-23/F-35 and much of its own being improved indigenous design.




My friend,No need to suspect one's nationality.

We just come here to post our views.Positive or nagetive,that doesn't matter.It can help us understand the topic more.


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## graphican

Growler said:


> PAF needs J-20 for deep strike.



We don't have such a "deep strike" doctrine yet or we must had some non-stealth fighters with ability to strike deep.


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## mourning sage

i read on this thread that china wont give us the JXX designated for PLAAF because of the possibility that the details of their technology could be relayed to USA. is this true?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

gohar321 said:


> i read on this thread that china wont give us the JXX designated for PLAAF because of the possibility that the details of their technology could be relayed to USA. is this true?



conspiraces.................... you will hear more in coming future


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## mourning sage

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> conspiraces.................... you will hear more in coming future



alright....but by this, do you mean that we will be getting the top 5th gen aircraft from china or an inferior version like f-35???


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## Kompromat

Luftwaffe said:


> *mr. kafumanpk This fighter (I doubt it's invisible effect), its head and the inlet is very beautiful, but other parts look like the MiG 1.44, the ugly.
> China's designers seem to lack the aesthetic sense.I think it is designed to be a failure.It is a huge disaster. *
> 
> You are a disaster product of bharat rakshak. You words are exactly that of what are being said on a popular JXX thread on baharat rakshak.
> 
> Aesthetic Sense has lead Chinese to design JXX, has more in common with YF-23/F-35 then mig 1.44.
> 
> Specially for you and your friends: Grapes Are Sour



I find it funny that those who get French to design their air craft , Americans to provide them engines and ejection seats , Israelis to provide weapons and avionics and yet call it the " Indigenous TEJAS" complain about the lack of aesthetic sense in J20's design .

Trolls at best !

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## mjnaushad

F-16_Falcon said:


> When PAF getting this. Please share the news.


Right now we don't even know when China is getting this.... Aur Aap Pakistan ki baat kartey hain

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## WAQAS119

JF-17 has been developed in Chegdu! Many of PAC Engineers were/are deployed at Chegdu for its development! And now J20 has been spotted at Chegdu! 
I think PAF officials must have had a good look at this new baby. 
I would not have had that thought in my mind but if the picture below is by a Chinese than I can give this idea a second thought. Because every rumor related to Pakistan and China can be true as has been the case with JF-17, J-10 and now J-20.



houshanghai said:


> huitong's pic


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## PakShaheen79

WAQAS119 said:


> JF-17 has been developed in Chegdu! Many of PAC Engineers were/are deployed at Chegdu for its development! And now J20 has been spotted at Chegdu!
> I think PAF officials must have had a good look at this new baby.
> I would not have had that thought in my mind but if the picture below is by a Chinese than I can give this idea a second thought. Because every rumor related to Pakistan and China can be true as has been the case with JF-17, J-10 and now J-20.



Yes, it was spotted at Chengdu but believe me CAC has more than one lab and assembly line ) JF-17, J-10A, J-10B, J-10S, J-20 ... these are too many to be built at one place. PAF officials would be busy in lab where Thunders were manufactured.

So, to me prospects of PAF engineers getting close to this thing during the development are on considerably low.

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## WAQAS119

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yes, it was spotted at Chengdu but believe me CAC has more than one lab and assembly line ) JF-17, J-10A, J-10B, J-10S, J-20 ... these are too many to be built at one place. PAF officials would be busy in lab where Thunders were manufactured.
> 
> So, to me prospects of PAF engineers getting close to this thing during the development are on considerably low.



I don't know what is the map of CAC! but while typing above post I had PAC map in my mind! MRF, JF-17 Thunder Manufacturing Factory (former F-6 RF) and all other Factories are situated side by side!


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## Myth_buster_1

Black Blood said:


> I find it funny that those who get French to design their air craft , Americans to provide them engines and ejection seats , Israelis to provide weapons and avionics and yet call it the " Indigenous TEJAS" complain about the lack of aesthetic sense in J20's design .
> 
> Trolls at best !



 well said bro.

Indians at their best!


----------



## naumananjum

gohar321 said:


> i read on this thread that china wont give us the JXX designated for PLAAF because of the possibility that the details of their technology could be relayed to USA. is this true?



no i dnt think so
its just a rumour
.
.


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## naumananjum

just read about
j-16 
.
i think if not j20
PAF must go for this
its a 4.5th generation fighter


----------



## abaseen99

Unmanned PAF Aircraft Streategies 
Monday, December 27, 2010

Posted by Army Optimist &#65279; 
&#65279; 


X-47A Rollout 
&#65279; 
In the next decade all Air Forces are focusing on the Stealth Technology available in the 5th Gen aircraft. The IAF burnt by colossal failures with reference to indigenous aircraft and engine manufacturing was left with a huge gap. It has tried to fill the void which was left by the inability of the IAF to produce the LCA. That void is being filled by three level of purchases, the MCRC, the purchase of Russian PAKFA (called FGFA in Bharat) and possible direct purchase of aircraft from the US.

Within the next quarter century, the IAF is projected to have many 5th generation fighter aircraft. The Chinese Ari Force is Light Years ahead and faces no threat from Delhi. The PAF has taken note of the IAF numbers and is taking appropriate measures to deal with the situation.

The IAF in 2025 will have the PAKFA in service, provided the Russians can produce the aircraft and provided that they are not another generation of Flying Coffins.

The IAF Countermeasures are as follows:

1.Begin the slow progress of mastering the technology so that it can be inculcated into existing Aircraft.
2.Jointly design and build Aircraft with China with approach 5th generation and beyond.
3.Purchase US aircraft with a bit older technology, and then upgrade those aircraft at lesser cost.
4.Work with Indonesia, and Turkey in developing local military technologies to counter the threats.
5.Use less expensive ways to deal with the incoming threat.
6.Bank on Missiles to counter the threat.
7.Bring incremental improvement to the JF-17 Thunder in Blcoks of fifty. This will keep the JF-17 thunder infused the latest technology for the next fifty years.
8.Start production of the FC-20s based on the J-10B and work with the Chinese on the production of the J-11s.
9.Enhance the UAV technology to the next level and design and produce Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAVs),
10.One expensive option is to build X-47 Pegasus class, to counter India&#8217;s military aviation threat to Pakistan.
11.Work with the Chinese to jontly build the WS-13 engine so that it can be used on the UCAV&#8217;s.
12.Continue development of the Babur Cruise missile and use to to build UCAV&#8217;s.
13.This mixture of response will not only be a potent defense against the IAF, but it will be eliminate the attempt of the IAF to intimidate Pakistan.
The first UCAV&#8217;s were autonomous cruise missiles, something that the U.S. and Germany have been fielding since the 1940&#8242;s. In Europe, several UCAV&#8217;s are known as robotic warplanes ( the Neuron, the Barrakuda and the Corax) are under development. These UACV concepts had their origins in the US, and Europe wants to remain competitive with the American Aviation industry. All the programs have stealth features playing in the same league as the American J-UCAS (Joint Unmanned Combat Aerial System). The US program includes the Boeing X45C and the Northrop Grumman X47B Pegasus . These European projects are the first foreign competitors for the American UCAV&#8217;.

These major UCAV&#8217; systems are in play:

1.The six nation $480 million European effort has a produced a flying prototype.
2.The joint German-Spanish, Swiss, Barrakuda conducted its first taxi tests on the 26 January 2006
3.The British Corax UACV. The UK perceives the Joint Strike Fighter as the last manned platform for its Air Force, which will eventually replaced by an UCAV. The Corax, which undertook its maiden flight already in 2004.
4.China is making UCAV by adopting the old F-7 designs. China is using the J-6 and J-7 into target drones. Pakistan which already has the old F-7s can to this cheaply.
The UACVs have the following advantage:

&#9702;Greater maneuverability &#8211; in modern day fighter aircraft human tolerance is the limiting factor for the number of g forces the plane can pool during rapid manoeuvres, with UACV this bottleneck is eliminated so they can be very manoeuvrable indeed.
&#9702;Less weight &#8211; this can affect many things like endurance time, acceleration, payload and so on. One or two pilots and all the stuff you put in the cockpit can weight quite a bit.
&#9702;Better aerodynamics &#8211; you don&#8217;t need the cockpit canopy.
Situational awareness &#8211; as Clerik said you can create very good virtual cockpit on ground that is superior to anything you can fit in an aircraft. SA is most important for air superiority missions, I think, and as air-to-air battles are pushed to BWR there is no benefit of having your Mark I eyeball on the actual aircraft.
No crew fatigue &#8211; on the ground pilots can control their UACVs in greater comfort and rotate during mission.
&#9702;Lower price &#8211; often the flying unit can be made cheaper. All that fancy plane-human interface gear, life support, ejection seats and whatnot costs big $, but in case of UACV you only need the plane-human interface part and with that it is one for many planes and can bee cheaper as it doesn&#8217;t have to endure all the stresses and such. You need gear for communicating with UACVs instead, but some means of communication are already in place, so no big change there.
&#9702;Pilots are out of harms way &#8211; UACVs will save pilots lives. Pilot is very expensive to train and hard to replace quickly.
&#9702;Long Range Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Combat
&#9702;Short Range within Visual Range Combat:
&#9702;Low Costs:
&#9702;Quantity versus Quality:
&#9702;Kamikaze possibilities
The Disadvantages of UCAVs

&#9702;Tackling the Problem of Jamming:
&#9702;Human Element
&#9702;Lag &#8211; radio communications can travel only so quickly but reaction time is critical for air engagements.
Single point of failure &#8211; if the enemy takes out the command centre, all the UCAV&#8217; are neutralized too.
Those who espouse following the C-47 route for the PAF are living in a fools paradise. The US will not share that technology with Pakistan and it will be too expensive for the PAF. The best route for the PAF will be to work with the Chinese and the Europeans to develop these unmanned systems.


----------



## SBD-3

abaseen99 said:


> Unmanned PAF Aircraft Streategies
> Monday, December 27, 2010
> 
> Posted by Army Optimist &#65279;
> &#65279;
> 
> 
> X-47A Rollout
> &#65279;
> In the next decade all Air Forces are focusing on the Stealth Technology available in the 5th Gen aircraft. The IAF burnt by colossal failures with reference to indigenous aircraft and engine manufacturing was left with a huge gap. It has tried to fill the void which was left by the inability of the IAF to produce the LCA. That void is being filled by three level of purchases, the MCRC, the purchase of Russian PAKFA (called FGFA in Bharat) and possible direct purchase of aircraft from the US.
> 
> Within the next quarter century, the IAF is projected to have many 5th generation fighter aircraft. The Chinese Ari Force is Light Years ahead and faces no threat from Delhi. The PAF has taken note of the IAF numbers and is taking appropriate measures to deal with the situation.
> 
> The IAF in 2025 will have the PAKFA in service, provided the Russians can produce the aircraft and provided that they are not another generation of Flying Coffins.
> 
> The IAF Countermeasures are as follows:
> 
> 1.Begin the slow progress of mastering the technology so that it can be inculcated into existing Aircraft.
> 2.Jointly design and build Aircraft with China with approach 5th generation and beyond.
> 3.Purchase US aircraft with a bit older technology, and then upgrade those aircraft at lesser cost.
> 4.Work with Indonesia, and Turkey in developing local military technologies to counter the threats.
> 5.Use less expensive ways to deal with the incoming threat.
> 6.Bank on Missiles to counter the threat.
> 7.Bring incremental improvement to the JF-17 Thunder in Blcoks of fifty. This will keep the JF-17 thunder infused the latest technology for the next fifty years.
> 8.Start production of the FC-20s based on the J-10B and work with the Chinese on the production of the J-11s.
> 9.Enhance the UAV technology to the next level and design and produce Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAVs),
> 10.One expensive option is to build X-47 Pegasus class, to counter Indias military aviation threat to Pakistan.
> 11.Work with the Chinese to jontly build the WS-13 engine so that it can be used on the UCAVs.
> 12.Continue development of the Babur Cruise missile and use to to build UCAVs.
> 13.This mixture of response will not only be a potent defense against the IAF, but it will be eliminate the attempt of the IAF to intimidate Pakistan.
> The first UCAVs were autonomous cruise missiles, something that the U.S. and Germany have been fielding since the 1940&#8242;s. In Europe, several UCAVs are known as robotic warplanes ( the Neuron, the Barrakuda and the Corax) are under development. These UACV concepts had their origins in the US, and Europe wants to remain competitive with the American Aviation industry. All the programs have stealth features playing in the same league as the American J-UCAS (Joint Unmanned Combat Aerial System). The US program includes the Boeing X45C and the Northrop Grumman X47B Pegasus . These European projects are the first foreign competitors for the American UCAV.
> 
> These major UCAV systems are in play:
> 
> 1.The six nation $480 million European effort has a produced a flying prototype.
> 2.The joint German-Spanish, Swiss, Barrakuda conducted its first taxi tests on the 26 January 2006
> 3.The British Corax UACV. The UK perceives the Joint Strike Fighter as the last manned platform for its Air Force, which will eventually replaced by an UCAV. The Corax, which undertook its maiden flight already in 2004.
> 4.China is making UCAV by adopting the old F-7 designs. China is using the J-6 and J-7 into target drones. Pakistan which already has the old F-7s can to this cheaply.
> The UACVs have the following advantage:
> 
> &#9702;Greater maneuverability  in modern day fighter aircraft human tolerance is the limiting factor for the number of g forces the plane can pool during rapid manoeuvres, with UACV this bottleneck is eliminated so they can be very manoeuvrable indeed.
> &#9702;Less weight  this can affect many things like endurance time, acceleration, payload and so on. One or two pilots and all the stuff you put in the cockpit can weight quite a bit.
> &#9702;Better aerodynamics  you dont need the cockpit canopy.
> Situational awareness  as Clerik said you can create very good virtual cockpit on ground that is superior to anything you can fit in an aircraft. SA is most important for air superiority missions, I think, and as air-to-air battles are pushed to BWR there is no benefit of having your Mark I eyeball on the actual aircraft.
> No crew fatigue  on the ground pilots can control their UACVs in greater comfort and rotate during mission.
> &#9702;Lower price  often the flying unit can be made cheaper. All that fancy plane-human interface gear, life support, ejection seats and whatnot costs big $, but in case of UACV you only need the plane-human interface part and with that it is one for many planes and can bee cheaper as it doesnt have to endure all the stresses and such. You need gear for communicating with UACVs instead, but some means of communication are already in place, so no big change there.
> &#9702;Pilots are out of harms way  UACVs will save pilots lives. Pilot is very expensive to train and hard to replace quickly.
> &#9702;Long Range Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Combat
> &#9702;Short Range within Visual Range Combat:
> &#9702;Low Costs:
> &#9702;Quantity versus Quality:
> &#9702;Kamikaze possibilities
> The Disadvantages of UCAVs
> 
> &#9702;Tackling the Problem of Jamming:
> &#9702;Human Element
> &#9702;Lag  radio communications can travel only so quickly but reaction time is critical for air engagements.
> Single point of failure  if the enemy takes out the command centre, all the UCAV are neutralized too.
> Those who espouse following the C-47 route for the PAF are living in a fools paradise. The US will not share that technology with Pakistan and it will be too expensive for the PAF. The best route for the PAF will be to work with the Chinese and the Europeans to develop these unmanned systems.



I don't see anything radical in this article rather than advices that most of the fan boys have already posted here many times


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## Indian-Devil

gohar321 said:


> i read on this thread that china wont give us the JXX designated for PLAAF because of the possibility that the details of their technology could be relayed to USA. is this true?




I think Vice Versa is true for this statement.


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## malikkhawar

J-20
china 5TH GEN fighter

China's new fighter, the stealthy J-20 has now completed its first flight after several weeks of preparations.

Posted by David A. Fulghum at 1/6/2011 10:41 AM CST

Seeing the J-20 stealth fighter with its nose wheel off the ground in a high-speed taxi test in Dec. was a shock to everyone except the Chinese, apparently.

The immediate impact of the new fighter&#8217;s pre-flight tests and the development of other advanced conventional weapons was downplayed by Vice Admiral David J. Dorsett, deputy Chief of Naval Operations for information dominance and director of naval intelligence (N2/N6).

&#8220;I&#8217;m more worried about Chinese game-changing capabilities in non-kinetic [areas such as information dominance, network invasion and electronic warfare],&#8221; he says. &#8220;I am most concerned about China&#8217;s focus on trying to develop [the ability] to dominate the electromagnetic spectrum, to counter space capabilities and to conduct cyberactivities.

&#8220;The other concern I have is China&#8217;s ability to become operationally efficient in a sophisticated, complex, joint war-fighting environment,&#8221; Dorsett says. &#8220;I don&#8217;t see China with those capabilities now. I do see them delivering individual components and weapons systems [like J-20 and DF-21D], but until they acquire proficiency [with them] how competent are they really going to be?&#8221;

The Chinese military&#8217;s self-proclaimed timeline is mid-century, Dorsett says. In that context, he denies that the Pentagon is overestimating its threat. 

&#8220;I&#8217;m not alarmed,&#8221; Dorsett says. &#8220;I am intrigued by developments and am quite interested in the quantities and different types of technologies that we didn&#8217;t expect or overestimated.&#8221;

There is a marked relationship between China&#8217;s booming economy and its military buildup, he points out. But there are obvious shortfalls.

&#8220;The Chinese don&#8217;t have a great integrated ISR capability or an anti-submarine capability at all,&#8221; Dorsett says. &#8220;They don&#8217;t demonstrate a sophisticated level in joint warfighting. They are at the early stages of operational proficiency across the board. What would be dangerous is underestimating the timeline of synchronizing these various element.&#8221;

Other Washington-based intelligence officials say they are watching the J-20&#8217;s testing with interest.

&#8220;They have done several high-speed taxis [with the nosewheel off the ground,&#8221; says another veteran analyst. &#8220;They could still be working out some kinks before they try an actual first flight.&#8221;

There also are a lot of unknowns about the aircraft&#8217;s real importance.

&#8220;Operational impact is a tough call to make at this point, given that this plane, even if it flies, is not going to be full-up 5th gen [aircraft],&#8221; the analyst says. &#8220;In essence, this is going to be a novelty for the next decade before it starts to roll off the series production lines and gets to the line units in any numbers that would impact any of our mission planning. A lot of things can happen, good and bad, between now and then to either speed this up or severely put the brakes on things. As far as radar cross-section goes, this is not an F-22, nor should we be thinking that they are going for low RCS right out of the chute,&#8221; the analyst says.

An Achilles' Heel of Chinese high performance aircraft has been engines. The Chinese have failed so far to produce an indigenous engine that has the performance they need for a world-class fighter. Under earlier Chinese military doctrine, which favored mass over advanced technology, the People's Liberation Army Air Force was equipped with adapted versions of 1950s Soviet designs with old-technology engines. Analysts differ in their assessments of China&#8217;s first high-performance engine, the Shenyang WS-10, but recent images of the J-11B fighter&#8212;China&#8217;s bootleg version of the Sukhoi Su-30&#8212;appears to show a nozzle design that differs visibly from the Russian AL-31F and resembles that of WS-10 engines displayed at air shows.

Dorsett says the J-20 program&#8217;s existence was known, but &#8220;One of the things that is &#8230; true is that we have been pretty consistent in underestimating the delivery and initial operational capability of Chinese technology weapons systems.&#8221; Two recent examples of misanalyses have been the J-20 fighter, the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile, a high-performance fighter engine design and advanced air combat missile.

&#8220;How far along are they?,&#8221; he says. &#8220;I don&#8217;t know. They clearly have an initial [J-20] prototype. Is it advanced and how many trials, tests and demos do they have to go through before it becomes operational? That&#8217;s not clear to me.&#8221;

However, the evidence of the design&#8217;s sophistication is mounting.

The J-20 is designed to carry new weaponry with some of it tucked away internally. China is continuing an effort to expand the military&#8217;s air-to-air missile inventory. Although Avic officials so far have refused to discuss what comes after the PL-12A radar-guided medium-range missile, new information suggests work is progressing on several enhanced versions. These include a combined solid-motor, ramjet-powered missile, the PL-21. The missile, with a single inlet for the ramjet, may have undergone ground tests last year.

Work may be slightly more advanced on the PL-12D, a ramjet-upgrade of the basic PL-12 with more modest changes to the airframe and less end-game maneuverability than the PL-21 would feature. Chinese industry also appears to be working on the PL-12C with smaller after control fins for internal carriage on the J-20. The mid-body fins are believed to be similar to the basic PL-12 and PL-12B with improved electronic counter-countermeasures.

The close-in battle would use the PL-10, whose design may resemble South Africa&#8217;s Denel A-Darter.

China&#8217;s ability to increasingly use standoff weapons, also in air-to-ground and anti-ship missile roles, is already affecting planning among potential adversaries. Japanese defense officials, for example, are showing interest in missiles with greater ranges for engaging Chinese threats earlier, and there are also discussion in the U.S. about the need for weapons with greater engagement capability.

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## air marshal




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## subanday

J-20 completes first test flight, accompanied by a J-10.... nice....


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## IceCold

PAF has already hands full with the induction of JF-17s, the F-16s, Awacs, and latter on the FC-20. This is indeed the bird PAF should be looking at but the right time would be 2020 and beyond. I would say somewhere around 2025.


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## Mani2020

This is what i got courtesy to EagleHannan

"*A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20*. *However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. **China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20. *
The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have. Then analyse and give them our own requirements and integrate our man power and share information we get from our own sources into the project.

Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
J-10 --> J-10B 

*LIke I said before, we have no input so far in this J-20. A few have laid eyes on it. My source told me, it will be another J-20 --> J-20-B story when Chinese will put it on Table.* Chances are the thing will NOT be on table anytime before 2015. For many reasons, including sales of J-10. *Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards). *
*Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. *The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
*PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down.* PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). *It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B. 
Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.*

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## S10

To be blunt, I think J-20 is beyond Pakistan's financial means. I would not be surprised that the plane will cost two to three times as much as J-10B, with a price tag approaching 100 mil per unit by the time of its induction.


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## pak blood

China pushes J-10A fighter for export to Pakistan, Egypt 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HONG KONG, May 19 (UPI) -- One member of the Russian military delegation to last November's Zhuhai Air Show described the Chinese-Russian arms trade as being in a long and drawn-out winter.

A representative of Rosoboronexport, the agency that handles exports of Russian defense equipment, declined to comment on China's possible export of J-10A fighters equipped with Russian AL-31F engines.

China did have its own indigenous engine on display at the show, the Taihang turbofan engine, with a thrust power of 13,200 kilograms, or 29,101 pounds. However, some experts say it is only 12,800 kilograms -- 28,219 pounds. The Taihang's exterior design and modular structure, as well as the processing and polishing technologies of the core machine and engine blades, seem to be an improvement over China's previous aviation engines, but it is still far behind similar systems from Russia and Western countries.

Representatives of China's Liming Motor Corp. refused to answer questions about the engine's performance features. It is unclear why China decided to introduce this engine to the international market when it has not elected to use it on its own J-10 fighters.

A Chinese military source said China has been promoting the J-10A to Egypt, but it appears that no substantial negotiations have yet taken place. An authoritative source from the Russian military industry has said that Russia will not allow China to use its engines in exported planes if it perceives such sales as having a negative impact on Russia's own export market. Egypt was once a major client of Russian arms, though it now buys little other than spare parts.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is not a traditional client of Russian aircraft. Therefore, Russia allowed its engines to be used on the JF-17 fighters China is developing with Pakistan. The same arrangement may therefore hold for the J-10A.

The basic price for the J-10A is about $29.3 million, according to the Chinese source. Considering that China aims to sell this fighter primarily to oil-producing countries -- and is prepared to trade it for oil and other natural resources -- it could be an attractive option for such countries.

A general assessment of the export version of the J-10A fighter can conclude that its engine has less thrust than the F-16 Block 52, while its radar system is more or less on par with the Zhuk-ME multifunction radar on the Russian MiG-28 SMT. This is because Russia's Phazotron Design Bureau exported to China three sets of its Zemchug multi-role radar systems after 2001, allowing China to come up with its own version of the Zhuk-ME radar. This radar has a detection range of 120 kilometers, or 75 miles, for 5-square-meter aerial targets and can attack four targets in the air simultaneously.

In terms of the diversity and performance of its weapon systems, especially long-range attack weapons, the J-10A lags far behind the F-16 Block 52. The air-to-air missiles loaded on the J-10A fighter at the Zhuhai exhibition were SD-10A AAMs with compound hard points. The SD-10A is a medium-range active radar-guided air-to-air missile upgraded from the SD-10, with its maximum range extended to 70 kilometers, or 43 miles. Its length is 3.9 meters, around 13 feet; diameter, 203 millimeters, around 8 inches; weight, 198 kilograms, just under 440 pounds, and maximum speed Mach 5, 3,800 miles per hour at sea level.

The PL-12 air-to-air missiles currently in service in the People's Liberation Army Air Force have undergone similar upgrading. Short-range missiles include the new-generation PL-5EII and PL-9C. The PL-5EII is equipped with a multichannel infrared seeker, the latest laser proximity fuse and a rocket motor with a non-smoke propellant.

The air-to-ground weapons on the J-10A mainly include the LT-2 laser-guided bomb and the FT series of Global Positioning System-guided bombs. In recent years, China has been imitating U.S. aviation combat weapons, a trend that is reflected in the weapon platforms on the J-10A, including its imitation U.S. joint direct attack munition serial bombs. 

Latest news, Latest News Headlines, news articles, news video, news photos - UPI.com


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## Mani2020

@*pakblood*

old article buddy try to check out the date of the article before posting ,also this is not j-10 related thread rather its about J-20/J-xx 
Try to post any info regarding J-10 in respective thread designed for J-10 

REGARDS


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

i think stealthy jf 17 will b the better option for paf


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## naumananjum

Storm Force said:


> For Pakistan the problem is balancing their Finances.
> 
> If They go for 200 Thunders with steady improvement its fine but it will eat up $4 billion in 10 years ie 2010-2020.
> 
> That will leave some careful juggling to do ie
> 
> FC20 X 36 OR 72 = $1.5 OR $3 BILLION
> 
> or more used F16s on the cheap with some more F16.52 thrown in
> 
> Save the money and buy a $70-$90m JXX IN 2020



u r rite
i was thinking the same
.
but on the other hand i think Pak should keep making jf-17 thunder 
they can give PAF much profit and that profit can play some role to ger Fifth generation fighter


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## xuwei

selfdelete


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## sid1508

fox said:


> T-50 Pak-fa is 10 years away, currently PAF is worried about LCA threat.
> Regarding inductions PAF goal is to induct 200 new fighter jets in the period of 2010-2015, after 2015 talks for 5th generation will start.



Better come out of dreams.  PAK-FA is only 5 years away.


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## xuwei

sid1508 said:


> Better come out of dreams.  PAK-FA is only 5 years away.



Wake up!
Look at your aircraft carrier.

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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> A fifth generation air force capability is one of four key areas that India has a head-start on Pakistan in, and in which Pakistan seems to be dragging its feet. The others are: space technology (both civilian and defensive), nuclear reactor technology (civilian and defensive) and a missile shield. We are currently doing a decent job of narrowing the gap India had managed on in the later 1990s and early 2000s in the defense field, but we must also _look ahead_.
> 
> As much as I don't appreciate the connotations of the thread starter, he has, nevertheless, identified a key issue. We are so content and happy with the JF-17s and FC-20s that we've failed to realize that, whatever the expected time frame of the PAK-FA is, India still has a significant jump on us. I would wholeheartedly support any move by Pakistan to divert funds from our F-16 and JF-17 procurement plans towards the famous (or infamous) J-XX. If not, at least we should try and lobby the US for the F-35.



Lets be rational, PAF has been a defensive force, add a lost decade, it becomes worse. JFT is indeed an enchantable achievement as it has gifted PAF a capability that it never had before i.e. manufacture a fully capable 4th generation combat aircraft. PAF's multidimentional expansion i.e. avionics, radar, airframe etc are certainly appriciable whether you value it or not. And JFT is indeed the right fit for any airforce which seeks to strike a balance between economy and performance. Well it may not be the best out there, but its certainly much better than the most we currently house i.e. mirages, F-7s etc.

Asking for a 5th gen right away, is honestly, too much IMHO. So let the PAF finish with what it has, in its hand, in the best manner. I said before, lets just forget about IAF right now, let them do what they are doing. Lets just concentrate on own garage. PAF is doing nicely at the moment, we are nearing the induction of our 2nd squadron. We will probably stay ahead of IAF on MMRCA as well or will at least stay at par. F-16 fleet upgrades are also going on schedule. 

So just one thing i.e. IAF goning for PAK-FA contract, should not be taken as a sole indicator of analysis. I said it before, at the moment, PAF has no information about what it can ask from its 5th Gen, as also pointed by our ACM. Let the FC-20 come in with J-20 technologies and then PAF get through them. Secondly let Chinese get a hold of their baby and evolve and mature it. When PAF is done with FC-20 induction. Then we will be able to chalk out that what more do we want over our FC-20 in 5th Gen. So let PAF do its Job and hope that it is done with utmost decency.


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## LEO99




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## abaseen99

chanies j 20 f 22 us and russian t 50 stealth fighters


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## monitor12345

conworldus said:


> Don't worry guys. F-16 and FC-20 will be enough for Pakistan for the next 20 years.



75+ F-16s and 36 FC-20s ( in 2015 ) are not enough...............EVEN for 150+ SU-30 MKIs.
IAF will be having 250+ SU-30 MKIs in 2015.
How can 75 F-16s and 36 FC-20s be enough for 250 ( 280 to be exact ) Su-30 MKIs and 126 MRCAs ? for 20 years. ? Almost 400 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft ?
ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.


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## monitor12345

SUPPOSE INDIA OPTS FOR F-16 IN SUPER VIPER IN MMRCA DEAL.


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## Silk

monitor12345 said:


> 75+ F-16s and 36 FC-20s ( in 2015 ) are not enough...............EVEN for 150+ SU-30 MKIs.
> IAF will be having 250+ SU-30 MKIs in 2015.
> How can 75 F-16s and 36 FC-20s be enough for 250 ( 280 to be exact ) Su-30 MKIs and 126 MRCAs ? for 20 years. ? Almost 400 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft ?
> ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.



1 nukes is enough to counter that all. I bet 75-100 will be more then a concern.


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## Jungibaaz

monitor12345 said:


> 75+ F-16s and 36 FC-20s ( in 2015 ) are not enough...............EVEN for 150+ SU-30 MKIs.
> IAF will be having 250+ SU-30 MKIs in 2015.
> How can 75 F-16s and 36 FC-20s be enough for 250 ( 280 to be exact ) Su-30 MKIs and 126 MRCAs ? for 20 years. ? Almost 400 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft ?
> ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.



PAFs role has always to deny the enemy air superiority, 7s f-16s, 36< J-10B/FC-20 and 250 JFTs are more than adequate.

the PAK FA/FGFA will most likely be countered by J-XX


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## Jungibaaz

monitor12345 said:


> SUPPOSE INDIA OPTS FOR F-16 IN SUPER VIPER IN MMRCA DEAL.



suppose you weren't an off topic troll, suppose you knew that this page was about...

'PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter'


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## Storm Force

Don,t xcount on 75 F16s i can gurantee a FULL ARMS EMBARGO by USA on both India & PAF in next shhot out.

Rendering the F16s very vulnerable

Bad move by PAF to buy more American hardware 

JXX is not for Export it is exclusively for PLAAF china will not sell their top secret stuff to any nation with close links with USA


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## krash

Storm Force said:


> Don,t xcount on 75 F16s i can gurantee a FULL ARMS EMBARGO by USA on both India & PAF in next shhot out.
> 
> Rendering the F16s very vulnerable
> 
> Bad move by PAF to buy more American hardware
> 
> JXX is not for Export it is exclusively for PLAAF china will not sell their top secret stuff to any nation with close links with USA



Yes as has been the case for the past 50 years.......hasn't it?


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## Silk

One moment Pakistan is close ally of China and now it is USA. Well. What can we say about the reality.


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## itaskol

pakistan ist the only country in this world which is ally for both country china and USA. is is possible for pakistan to get fifth gen fighter from china and usa.


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## farhan_9909

Pakistan and USA are allies only because of reasons.

We want money/weapons and they want a way to supply their 300 nato trucks per day from pak and pak support for them in afghanistan

China and pak are natural ally,

This is something which happened natural.and talking about nature(ghaib) is sin

---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

PAF will think about 5th gen in 2015-16..So we will develop our JF-17 into stealth fighter

or Will go for china single engine stealth fighter

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## Storm Force

No Such thing as Chinease Stealth Fighter until 2020.. Atleast

That huge bomber they call J20 is not aviable for Export anyway.

Single engine Chinease Stealth Bird. (ANY PROOF) this even exists on a drawing board never mind prototype


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## krash

Storm Force said:


> No Such thing as Chinease Stealth Fighter until 2020.. Atleast
> 
> *That huge bomber they call J20* is not aviable for Export anyway.
> 
> Single engine Chinease Stealth Bird. (ANY PROOF) this even exists on a drawing board never mind prototype



You have an undying thirst of being ridiculed and embarrassed dont you? Im beginning to suspect you do it purposefully.......


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## houshanghai

Stealthy detail (j20 vs t50)


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## Donatello

LEO99 said:


>



Lol, it looks more like a cruiser than a fighter!

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## S10

penumbra said:


> Lol, it looks more like a cruiser than a fighter!


The long airframe is designed to accomodate supercruise. China tends to focus more on manoevurability and supercruise when it comes to 5th generation fighters. The philosophy is that dogfights are inevitable between LO aircrafts, thus the faster and more agile one wins the day.

For that purpose, they even sacrificed low observability. With that said, it is not to say that J-20 will be a huge target on radar. Great efforts were still made to lower the plane's RCS, and is head above the rest of 4.5 generation in terms of signal management.


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## abaseen99



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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> The long airframe is designed to accomodate supercruise. China tends to focus more on manoevurability and supercruise when it comes to 5th generation fighters. The philosophy is that dogfights are inevitable between LO aircrafts, thus the faster and more agile one wins the day.
> 
> For that purpose, they even sacrificed low observability. With that said, it is not to say that J-20 will be a huge target on radar. Great efforts were still made to lower the plane's RCS, and is head above the rest of 4.5 generation in terms of signal management.


 
See this is where Americans stand firm, they maintain "unless you cant be seen, you cant be hit". The theme of maneuverability comes second as all this maneuverability will only help when J-20 is able to detect the presence of Raptor. While Raptor will certainly have the privilege of first sight, first shot putting J-20 on defensive right from initiation. The Raptor philosophy is to keep hidden and make BVR fight unless its absolutely necessary to go WVR. Keeping this in view, I am still a big proponent of "stealth first" philosophy


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

Aug 9, 2011
PAF and Next Generation Stealth Fighter Program J-2X Confirmed












PAF and Next Generation Stealth Fighter Program J-2X Confirmed ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

PAF recently sent a group of represenatives to CAC. They looked at a few designs for their 4th gen, and in general they were pretty satisfied."

Chengdu has an export pre-4th gen (5th gen in US/Russian standard)designated as J-2X.Pakistan and third world countries have demands for it. Of course, 611 can expect to get some order from Chinese air force also. It is about the size of F-35, and the design has already been presented to Pakistan."


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## abdulbarijan

Hey every one,
Well seems like our friends from the east are "concerned" again for what we will have against their 5th generation fighter.
Although it is a matter of concern for us but the fact is this thread will just be having fights with ultimate result of it being closed.

As far as opinion on the topic goes,it is really funny the fact that every time a new development in IAF takes place (which is good 10 years away) suddenly some concerned friends go and open up a thread about it in attempt to gain satisfaction.

Every one knows this i mean first it was the BVR threat from IAF which had our friends concerned suddenly up came the 500 AMRAAM deal with our friends falling back on the course of their "vs" psyche , same was the case with the Indian MMRCA deal with Indian "concerns" of how PAF will match up,after insider news that FC-20 will be what we selected to counter MMRCA deal there were people going how in the heck could a simple upgraded J-10 hold against the likes of typhoon and rafale etc..the answer came again with the huge upgrades on the J-10

This time its no different only names and generations have changed the concept is the same which always results the same

*-Time line (we will induct faster since we signed the deal first vs no we have a history of inducting faster than u guys (JFT,F-7 PG))

-Stupid comparisons (consider this against what u have LOL!! vs oh yeah well consider this  )

-End of thread (Mods coming and deleting the thread)
*

Coming to J-XX,J-2X or Pak-FA
*Time line:*
Considering what India did with the MMRCA deal and the long delays of defense projects the time line for PAK-FA seems highly unlikely to be 2018 plus like i said the history of Pakistan and China coming up with solutions in very short time span ..
No one surely knows
*VS BS:*
PAk-FA vs J-XX or J-2X
Indian friends going on about how Indo-Russia friendship produced such great jets like MKI etc while we pakisranis going about how China and Pakistan have stuck together and have produced such great solutions in such short time eg JF-17 and FC-20's

No one surely knows whose gonna come on top cuz we dont even know the capabilities of a jet that is a prototype (PAk-FA) and the jet that is as of now on paper (J-XX or J-2X)

*So the ultimate answer of this will be "No one surely knows"*
The only thing that can de done is either a little fantasy or a little speculation both of which yield catastrophic fights in the forums..

Like one wise "chipmunk" said
_*"Opinions ain't facts take em and let em go"*_

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## S10

hasnain0099 said:


> See this is where Americans stand firm, they maintain "unless you cant be seen, you cant be hit". The theme of maneuverability comes second as all this maneuverability will only help when J-20 is able to detect the presence of Raptor. While Raptor will certainly have the privilege of first sight, first shot putting J-20 on defensive right from initiation. The Raptor philosophy is to keep hidden and make BVR fight unless its absolutely necessary to go WVR. Keeping this in view, I am still a big proponent of "stealth first" philosophy


If Americans did not care about manoevurability, they would have picked the YF-23 over the YF-22 in their ATF selection. There was a documentary about the YF-23 program, which the Northrop team described that YF-23 had better low observable characteristics and was faster than the YF-22. Yet, it was the more manoevurable YF-22 that won the day. RCS and radar detection range have a diminishing return value.

Only time will tell which philosophy is right.


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## Pfpilot

The f-22 was chosen in the early 90s. Missiles were yet to reach the levels of capabilities we see today. High offbore sight missiles with the ability to pull 40 to 50gs were not a reality at that time. The f-35 is a far greater indicator of what the future holds according to the USAF. Some of the limitations of the f-35 may be due to cost, but the Americans would never let a substandard product enter service. Advanced avionics and missiles have reached a point where they can counter, to a great extent, super maneuverability.
It doesn't matter what maneuver an aircraft is pulling when an aim-9x can move faster and out turn it...or atleast that is what the Americans are relying on.


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## S10

hasnain0099 said:


> See this is where Americans stand firm, they maintain "unless you cant be seen, you cant be hit". The theme of maneuverability comes second as all this maneuverability will only help when J-20 is able to detect the presence of Raptor. While Raptor will certainly have the privilege of first sight, first shot putting J-20 on defensive right from initiation. The Raptor philosophy is to keep hidden and make BVR fight unless its absolutely necessary to go WVR. Keeping this in view, I am still a big proponent of "stealth first" philosophy


Don't know how to explain this, but there is a math formula to calculate detection distance. Basically, a function of ^4.

E =[P x G x RCS x L x T]/(4 x pi^3 x R^4)]

To keep it simple, to reduce radar detection range by half, your RCS has to be 1/16 of the original value. For example, if a radar's detection range against a target with RCS of 3m^2 is 200 kilometres, then the same radar would detect a target with 0.065m^2 target at 76.7 kilometers. Of course, that is in ideal and interference-free environment. Now you should understand why China place manovurability and supercruise ahead of low radar obserability.

A good article in English: http://www.mar-it.de/Radar/RCS/RCS_xx.pdf


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## ziaulislam

a vs thread is rdiculous..as no aircraft faces the other alone...
also there cant be PAK FA before 2018 ..i think it would be inducted along j-20 in 2020s..unless russians go for downgraded one
and the indian version..it hasnt yet got the prototype

so we can be sure about it ..it wouldnt be there before 2020
similarly the LCA is not coming before 2015(MK2) and the MRCA is suspected to get even more delays


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## S10

Pfpilot said:


> The f-22 was chosen in the early 90s. Missiles were yet to reach the levels of capabilities we see today. High offbore sight missiles with the ability to pull 40 to 50gs were not a reality at that time. The f-35 is a far greater indicator of what the future holds according to the USAF. Some of the limitations of the f-35 may be due to cost, but the Americans would never let a substandard product enter service. Advanced avionics and missiles have reached a point where they can counter, to a great extent, super maneuverability.
> It doesn't matter what maneuver an aircraft is pulling when an aim-9x can move faster and out turn it...or atleast that is what the Americans are relying on.


False.

Americans certainly didn't think so when they picked the YF-22 over the YF-23. If supercruise and manoevurability did not matter, then we'd be seeing B-2's carrying loads of A2A missions in air superiority role.


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## Safriz

since you guys are on about F-22 raptor...mind giveng your opinion in this thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/124571-mystery-bandpass-radome-3.html#post2023418


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## Storm Force

I would be incredible surprised and very impressed if the PAF could buy and maintain a FIFTH generation platform.

FROM wat i hear the unit cost of F35 wil be $135m each 

PAK FGFA around $100m each. 

THE CHINEASE J20 will cost at least $70-80m each based on fc20 costing around $35m each.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE COMPLETELY FORGOTTON THAT BOTH CHINA & INDIA enjoy massive budgets TODAY and in the future too. THEY CAN AFFORD MULTI BILLION $$$$ air assets today and in the future.

PAF budgets are a tiny fraction 

soft loans will take you so far 

EVEN THE RICH EUROPEANS are turning their noses up to F35 PRICE ISSUES some of them will upgrade existing fighters and others will turn to cheaper options like gripen ng...


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## Storm Force

Current defense budgets 

CHINA is around $90 billion officially INDIA around $35 billion and PAKISTAN around $8 billion. THE speed at which both china & india are growing their GDPs this gap will grow even bigger relative to pakistan.

FIFTH gen fighters are very expensive and at least 10 years away for china (j20)& india/russia(pak fa) and probably 15-20 years for export countries like Pakistan


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## Storm Force

I AGREE THAT PAK FA will not see service in india before 2020 I DO THINK J20 WILL COME SOONER TO CHINA. IE Around 2016


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> I would be incredible surprised and very impressed if the PAF could buy and maintain a FIFTH generation platform.
> 
> FROM wat i hear the unit cost of F35 wil be $135m each
> 
> PAK FGFA around $100m each.
> 
> THE CHINEASE J20 will cost at least $70-80m each based on fc20 costing around $35m each.
> 
> SOME PEOPLE HAVE COMPLETELY FORGOTTON THAT BOTH CHINA & INDIA enjoy massive budgets TODAY and in the future too. THEY CAN AFFORD MULTI BILLION $$$$ air assets today and in the future.
> 
> PAF budgets are a tiny fraction
> 
> soft loans will take you so far
> 
> EVEN THE RICH EUROPEANS are turning their noses up to F35 PRICE ISSUES some of them will upgrade existing fighters and others will turn to cheaper options like gripen ng...


 


Storm Force said:


> Current defense budgets
> 
> CHINA is around $90 billion officially INDIA around $35 billion and PAKISTAN around $8 billion. THE speed at which both china & india are growing their GDPs this gap will grow even bigger relative to pakistan.
> 
> FIFTH gen fighters are very expensive and at least 10 years away for china (j20)& india/russia(pak fa) and probably 15-20 years for export countries like Pakistan


 
Thank you for your valuable contribution and enlightenment of what we already know. 

We are not going for an expensive option nor would we be going for something in numbers. At the most 2-3 Sqds of a single engine 5th Gen fighter from China will be procured. J-20 is a big aircraft and we are not in need of that, we would be looking for something in the single engine category, thus the cost would be low for procurement as well as the operational costs. 

2-3 Sqds of the 5th Gen, supplemented by F-16s, FC-20s & JF-17s in numbers. 

Plus, its not compulsory, that the economic situation of Pakistan will remain the same forever, we had a very good time for more then 5 years before 2008, and we can do that again. So, when and if economic situation gets improved, we will be back to the normal.

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## IceCold

Storm Force said:


> JXX is not for Export it is exclusively for PLAAF china will not sell their top secret stuff to any nation with close links with USA


 
The link between the US and PAK is anything but close, Unless of course your kind has a different meaning for the word close.


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## IceCold

TaimiKhan said:


> Plus, its not compulsory, that the economic situation of Pakistan will remain the same forever, we had a very good time for more then 5 years before 2008, and we can do that again. So, when and if economic situation gets improved, we will be back to the normal.


 
Indians tend to forget this quite very often and needs to be reminded that just because Pakistan economy is going through bad times, does not mean, it will remain in that state forever while Indian economy continues to grow.


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## SBD-3

monitor12345 said:


> 75+ F-16s and 36 FC-20s ( in 2015 ) are not enough...............EVEN for 150+ SU-30 MKIs.
> IAF will be having 250+ SU-30 MKIs in 2015.
> How can 75 F-16s and 36 FC-20s be enough for 250 ( 280 to be exact ) Su-30 MKIs and 126 MRCAs ? for 20 years. ? Almost 400 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft ?
> ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.


Indian Airforce has always found comfort in numbers, I wonder. Anyways, Its already 2011.5 so even a deal closes by 2013 it will probably take procurement beyond 1215. MKI, well it was sort of humiliated by RAF air chief by calling Typhoon generation next as compared to MKI, I am though not downplaying its capabilities, a worthy opponent but its been 9 years almost since IAF is inducting this and still they stand at 142, if the progress continues better luck in next decade with the induction target


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## siegecrossbow

I think it is only a matter of time before cheaper, more rugged Fifth generation fighter aircraft are developed.


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## Donatello

IceCold said:


> Indians tend to forget this quite very often and needs to be reminded that just because Pakistan economy is going through bad times, does not mean, it will remain in that state forever while Indian economy continues to grow.


 
Not to mention the recent downturn in Indian Economy.......but then there were some delusional Indians.....


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## logic

It is only a matter of time before PAF will accuire 5th gen aircraft.
At present US is the only country that has deployed the 5th gen aircraft. While Russia and China still working on deployment of any such aircraft.
At present the Pakistan economy is not strong enough to make any audacious spending related to such high tech process.


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> Raptor read the thread again.
> 
> The point is cyrstal clear let me highlight the point
> 
> *Should could* PAF go striaght to JXX project and miss the FC20 induction completley as the FC20 is 5 years away and has the same role as the Thunder. ie single engined Multi role fighter
> 
> Esp in light of india,s massive comitment now formalised with Russia today for PAK FA project.



PAF will go for 150 j-10/F-16s
200-250 jf-17
and about 50 j-xxx

this will allow it to keep a 1/3 strength to indian airforce..
all induction should be completed by 2015-2016..norway f-16s is just a plane b..its unlikly PAF will go for it..

after 2015 PAF will slowlly work on J-XX and startr its induction around 2020..it will be arounf 2020 that indian pakfa will come into service..

you cant make a fifth gen aircraft your work horse..neither india is planning to do so..

the 150 j-10/f-16 are suppose to counter over 400 su-30/MRCA

while 200 jf-17 should be the workhorse force and will counter LCA/mig29/mirages etc


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## ziaulislam

siegecrossbow said:


> I think it is only a matter of time before cheaper, more rugged Fifth generation fighter aircraft are developed.



actually the f-35 programme director (from lockheed martin) also stated that in the end , if you remove developmental costs f-35 will only be slightly expensive then an f-16..he estimated the fly way cost at 65 million (without the engine) (and developmental costs)


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## ziaulislam

penumbra said:


> Not to mention the recent downturn in Indian Economy.......but then there were some delusional Indians.....



as soon as pakistan has a stable goveremtn the econmy itself shoots to around 10..
this was witnessed in 60s, 80s and 2000s..
problem are our politicians..e.g look at karachi today..!


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## nomi007

it is too early to decide
j-20 is still in trials
but we have no other option left


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## GORKHALI

hasnain0099 said:


> Indian Airforce has always found comfort in numbers, I wonder. Anyways, Its already 2011.5 so even a deal closes by 2013 it will probably take procurement beyond 1215. MKI, well it was sort of humiliated by* RAF air chief by calling Typhoon generation next as compared to MKI, I am though not downplaying its capabilities, a worthy opponent but its been 9 years almost since IAF is inducting this and still they stand at 142, if the progress continues better luck in next decade with the induction target *


 
And the news just Popped in random news article,just like some anonymous PAF pilot said typhoon been beaten by F16.Well let you remind you here my dear that RAF chief want to showcase its aircraft better than anything IAF has ,so they said soo soo things about Mki. Capability wise it's more than any aircraft in southeast asia and it'll remain so in next decade too. Accept it or not....


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## GORKHALI

penumbra said:


> Not to mention the recent downturn in Indian Economy.......but then there were some delusional Indians.....


 
Delusional??Recent downturn is including with china too my dear.Pakistan is in denial mode than in delusion . They might end up in double dip recession if another Recession hit global economy.However India and China GDP growth will fall to 6-6.5 which is again a healthy growth.


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## GORKHALI

Storm Force said:


> I AGREE THAT PAK FA will not see service in india before 2020 I DO THINK J20 WILL COME SOONER TO CHINA. IE Around 2016


 
FGFA is stated to join 2017 or say is 2018 .J 20 to me is more like a TD while PAK FA has 2 prototype flying,turning and showcasing in aeroshow.3rd prototype stated to fly by year end ..


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## Storm Force

LoGIC IN RESPONSE to your comment 

ITS only a matter of time before PAF acquire a FIFTH gen fighter. I AGREE around 2025 

I think the ACM of every air force in the world will say the same ie" *its only a matter of time before we *"

BeAR IN MIND china is fielding 200+ J10 today. First j10 ARRIVED in 2005 6 years ago. FIRST J10 in PAF will not arrive until 2015 IN THE FORM OF FC20

THATS 10 YEARS LATER

THE CHINEASE will not be selling j20 for export for a decade after its first induction. A INDUCTION may not happen until 2020.

" WITH PAK FA FGFA its a different ball game" india has a 25% stake in pak fa hence early induction of FGFA probably around 2020

sino pak example YOUR JF17 THUNDER being a good example.


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> LoGIC IN RESPONSE to your comment
> 
> ITS only a matter of time before PAF acquire a FIFTH gen fighter. I AGREE around 2025
> 
> I think the ACM of every air force in the world will say the same ie" *its only a matter of time before we *"
> 
> BeAR IN MIND china is fielding 200+ J10 today. First j10 ARRIVED in 2005 6 years ago. FIRST J10 in PAF will not arrive until 2015 IN THE FORM OF FC20
> 
> THATS 10 YEARS LATER
> 
> THE CHINEASE will not be selling j20 for export for a decade after its first induction. A INDUCTION may not happen until 2020.
> 
> " WITH PAK FA FGFA its a different ball game" india has a 25% stake in pak fa hence early induction of FGFA probably around 2020
> 
> sino pak example YOUR JF17 THUNDER being a good example.



obviously you are behind news..j-10 will arrive by end of this year..

pakistan is less likly to be intersted in j-20, as its expensive to operate like all heavy twin negine aircrafts(reason for Americans going for f-35 was the cost of operation not production of f-22!!)

thats why recent news showed that Chinese air companies have offered on paper 5th gen single jet engine..as it will borrow lots of tech form j-20 (like jf-17 from j-10), i think the cost for us would be less than 60 million..Pakistan can end up buying 50-60 for cost of approx 5 billion from 2020 to 2025


points that chinese wouldnt export its latest tech to Pakistan is contradicted by history..from 1960 to 2010 china has given its latest techn to pakistan..so speak some sense..

f-16--typhoon story is speculative and i don think so anyone can prove or disprove it..fact that MKI is best fighter is a agin a complicated issue..as both j-10 and su30 fall in different class..most of PAF think that f-16s and j-10s can easily handle a su 30mki at lower cost of maintenance


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## Storm Force

F16 & J10 can EASILY handle SU30MKI ziauslim TELL US.

care to explain HOW 

su30mki HAS TECHNOLOGY that is not available to both the F16 & THE J10 ie TVC engines & PESA radars 

su30mki also has bigger more powerful twin egines.

WORDS on their own are empty 

PS 

PAF has 18 block 52 F16S and nil J10S versis 150 su30mki as we speak. now i know you people love f16 but do honstly think 18 F16s block 52S ARE GOING TO TAKE ON 150 SU30MKI 

PLEASE dont tell me about tomrrow next week or next month 

The other 44 F16s are 25 yearS old block 15 and need major upgrade in PAF ..


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## Zabaniyah

Storm Force said:


> F16 & J10 can EASILY handle SU30MKI ziauslim TELL US.
> 
> care to explain HOW
> 
> su30mki HAS TECHNOLOGY that is not available to both the F16 & THE J10 ie TVC engines & PESA radars
> 
> su30mki also has bigger more powerful twin egines.
> 
> WORDS on their own are empty
> 
> PS
> 
> PAF has 18 block 52 F16S and nil J10S versis 150 su30mki as we speak. now i know you people love f16 but do honstly think 18 F16s block 52S ARE GOING TO TAKE ON 150 SU30MKI
> 
> PLEASE dont tell me about tomrrow next week or next month
> 
> The other 44 F16s are 25 yearS old block 15 and need major upgrade in PAF ..


 
IAF losing edge over PAF : North: India Today

J-10B (aka FC-20) would have AESA radar. 

PAF F-16s are being upgraded by Turkey, more are likely to follow.


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## HRK

Just to my curiosity, I want ask senior members are these attached snaps of two different aircraft show two different 5th generation programs of China simultaneously.












If so, why first one got preference over the other.

Thanks in advance


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## sohail.ishaque

TaimiKhan said:


> Thank you for your valuable contribution and enlightenment of what we already know.
> 
> We are not going for an expensive option nor would we be going for something in numbers. At the most 2-3 Sqds of a single engine 5th Gen fighter from China will be procured. J-20 is a big aircraft and we are not in need of that, we would be looking for something in the single engine category, thus the cost would be low for procurement as well as the operational costs.
> 
> 2-3 Sqds of the 5th Gen, supplemented by F-16s, FC-20s & JF-17s in numbers.
> 
> Plus, *its not compulsory, that the economic situation of Pakistan will remain the same forever, we had a very good time for more then 5 years before 2008, and we can do that again*. So, when and if economic situation gets improved, we will be back to the normal.


 
Yup... InshALLAH we'll be back on track very soon.. imo with this govt gone, things will start to improve....


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## typhoon77

> If so, why first one got preference over the other.
> Thanks in advance


 The second image has been floating around for years. Its clearly a photoshop. It looks more like a J-10 and Black Widow hybrid more than anything else.

Does anyone know the estimated MTOW for the J-20?? Has that info been release? It looks very heavy from the pics, but then again they are just pics.


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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> F16 & J10 can EASILY handle SU30MKI ziauslim TELL US.
> 
> care to explain HOW
> 
> su30mki HAS TECHNOLOGY that is not available to both the F16 & THE J10 ie TVC engines & PESA radars
> 
> su30mki also has bigger more powerful twin egines.
> 
> WORDS on their own are empty
> 
> PS
> 
> PAF has 18 block 52 F16S and nil J10S versis 150 su30mki as we speak. now i know you people love f16 but do honstly think 18 F16s block 52S ARE GOING TO TAKE ON 150 SU30MKI
> 
> PLEASE dont tell me about tomrrow next week or next month
> 
> The other 44 F16s are 25 yearS old block 15 and need major upgrade in PAF ..


 
PESA? PESA is old Russian 90's tech, we have no desire of pursuing it, instead AESA for FC-20.

18 Block 52 and another 18 on order. No FC-20 as of yet, but they'll be here soon.
18 only? 18 + 18 (total 36 new) + 44 MLU.
80 F-16 Block 52 with AMRAAM and AWACS support..

44 are getting major upgrades... they'll be up to Block 52 standard minus CFTs.

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## alimobin memon

thrust vectoring thrust vectoring i don't like its not war proven just tvc on su30mkI has given a circus show !!


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## Pfpilot

Guys, there is no point, Mr. Storm Force will continue to live in an alternate reality where IAF future procurements count as current threats and Pakistani current equipment is nothing better than what the North Koreans can put in the air. The jf-17 is utterly useless, the f-16 a mere show piece, and despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the j-10 and an eventual stealth aircraft will never eeever join the PAF inventory...there, we lose! No more need to troll Storm Force.


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## MilSpec

alimobin memon said:


> thrust vectoring thrust vectoring i don't like its not war proven just tvc on su30mkI has given a circus show !!


 
I guess you share the same view on F22 Raptor I guess?


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## [--Leo--]

HAMMAD REHMAN KHAN said:


> Just to my curiosity, I want ask senior members are these attached snaps of two different aircraft show two different 5th generation programs of China simultaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, why first one got preference over the other.
> 
> Thanks in advance


 
Second picture of 5th gen is that project for PAF or china's


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## Patriot

[--Leo--];2029622 said:


> Second picture of 5th gen is that project for PAF or china's


 2nd Pic is photoshop - Not Chinese.

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## ziaulislam

all are going through upgrades..

i dont think so i need to explain why cant a f-16blk52 handle su30..i think it to superior to any fighter in its class..(hint why was india so eager to buy western equipment instead of going for more su30)


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## Zabaniyah

ziaulislam said:


> all are going through upgrades..
> 
> i dont think so i need to explain why cant a f-16blk52 handle su30..i think it to superior to any fighter in its class..(hint why was india so eager to buy western equipment instead of going for more su30)


 
The SU-30 and F-16 fall under different categories. They aren't the same class.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Zabanya said:


> The SU-30 and F-16 fall under different categories. They aren't the same class.


i think he wants to say that su30 is superior to any fighter in its class anf f16 blk52 in its own class


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## ziaulislam

i think every body knows that su 30 and f-16 are in light and heavy weight catergery..
but waht i am saying that f-16 is the best aircraft PAF will opt for ..as PAF will not go for twin engine aircrafts..

i believe that in this era of BVR.. ECM,low RCS and AIM 120 of f-16 will give F-16 an edge over su 30..
even in WVR missles are used not a gun so a missiles with in excess of 30g turn..maneuverability matters a little


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## Areesh

Zabanya said:


> IAF losing edge over PAF : North: India Today
> 
> J-10B (aka FC-20) would have AESA radar.
> 
> PAF F-16s are being upgraded by Turkey, more are likely to follow.


 
You missed around 100-150 JFT block 2. It is said Block 2 would share the smaller version of FC-20 AESA radar.


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## SBD-3

PANDORA said:


> And the news just Popped in random news article,just like some anonymous PAF pilot said typhoon been beaten by F16.Well let you remind you here my dear that RAF chief want to showcase its aircraft better than anything IAF has ,so they said soo soo things about Mki. Capability wise it's more than any aircraft in southeast asia and it'll remain so in next decade too. Accept it or not....


You can downplay his statement as it may be very hard for you to believe but he related it to the results of an exercise. But the matter of fact is that he is the Air Chief of an air force not a salesman of EDA. His statement will be more precise and relevant that a newbie like you. my two cents.


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## SBD-3

sandy_3126 said:


> I guess you share the same view on F22 Raptor I guess?


Plz dont disgrace F-22.........There is no match for that and FYI F-22 is more than Just TVC.....Its a Technological Marvel......Anything else?

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## Patriot

hasnain0099 said:


> Plz dont disgrace F-22.........There is no match for that and FYI F-22 is more than Just TVC.....Its a Technological Marvel......Anything else?


 Lol They consider SU30 nothing short of F22.I can't wait to see their reaction when first SU30 is shot down haha.


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## Jungibaaz

sandy_3126 said:


> I guess you share the same view on F22 Raptor I guess?


 
good advantage for dogfighting.... for anything else... it has no advantage!
it will help you out maneuver your enemy, but a decent HMS or JHMCS system with a good WVRAAM means that any WVR engagement is won by pilot skill and not TVC.

Not too bothered about TVC on MKI. 

and why compare MKI to F-22? F-22 has a lot more 'to it' then just TVC!


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## razgriz19

PAF will replace f-16s with 5th G fighter.
in other words we're gonna have to wait for another 10-15 years untill we see our first 5th G fighter...


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## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> PAF will replace f-16s with 5th G fighter.
> in other words we're gonna have to wait for another 10-15 years untill we see our first 5th G fighter...


Not necessarily, considering the future procurements of IAF, it is almost certain that PAF will have to increase numbers as well to maintain the ratio


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## Dr. Strangelove

Areesh said:


> You missed around 100-150 JFT block 2. It is said Block 2 would share the smaller version of FC-20 AESA radar.


 
do u have any detail about the aesa radarused in fc20s


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## Storm Force

So far 

We HAVE RAF ACM claiming the Typhoon BEAT the SU30MKI in indrdush excercises in 2007

PAF flyers are claiming their F16s block 15S beat the TYPHOON in wvr dog fight

BEFORE all of this in cope india 2005 SU30K beat USA F15 in india

AND SU30MKI beat singpores F16/52 in joint exc ercises in 2008. as per indian noise

" in other words wat are we to believe to be correct " 

WHAT I KNOW THE IAF jjust spent last 1 year evaluating. flight testing to the max both in deserts of rajasthan & valleys of LEH & KASHMIR all the 6 best fighters of the 4 generation era.

THESE INCLUDED F16/60 with AESA and Gripen & Typhoon. rafael & f18 super hornet.

THE INDIANS CONCLUDED THAT F16 BLOCK 60 & 3 OTHERS are not capable enough to meet india needs

they went with typhoon & rafael.

so to paf good luk with your F16 BLOCK 52s


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## IceCold

Storm Force said:


> So far
> 
> We HAVE RAF ACM claiming the Typhoon BEAT the SU30MKI in indrdush excercises in 2007
> 
> PAF flyers are claiming their F16s block 15S beat the TYPHOON in wvr dog fight
> 
> BEFORE all of this in cope india 2005 SU30K beat USA F15 in india
> 
> AND SU30MKI beat singpores F16/52 in joint exc ercises in 2008. as per indian noise
> 
> " in other words wat are we to believe to be correct "
> 
> WHAT I KNOW THE IAF jjust spent last 1 year evaluating. flight testing to the max both in deserts of rajasthan & valleys of LEH & KASHMIR all the 6 best fighters of the 4 generation era.
> 
> THESE INCLUDED F16/60 with AESA and Gripen & Typhoon. rafael & f18 super hornet.
> 
> THE INDIANS CONCLUDED THAT F16 BLOCK 60 & 3 OTHERS are not capable enough to meet india needs
> 
> they went with typhoon & rafael.



Of course anything that India buys automatically becomes superior to all the rest in the world. We are very much familar with the trend.



> so to paf good luk with your F16 BLOCK 52s


Thanks now can we get back on the topic which is about Jxx and PAF and not the F-16s and certainly not about IAF.


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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> So far
> 
> We HAVE RAF ACM claiming the Typhoon BEAT the SU30MKI in indrdush excercises in 2007
> 
> PAF flyers are claiming their F16s block 15S beat the TYPHOON in wvr dog fight
> 
> BEFORE all of this in cope india 2005 SU30K beat USA F15 in india
> 
> AND SU30MKI beat singpores F16/52 in joint exc ercises in 2008. as per indian noise
> 
> " in other words wat are we to believe to be correct "
> 
> WHAT I KNOW THE IAF jjust spent last 1 year evaluating. flight testing to the max both in deserts of rajasthan & valleys of LEH & KASHMIR all the 6 best fighters of the 4 generation era.
> 
> THESE INCLUDED F16/60 with AESA and Gripen & Typhoon. rafael & f18 super hornet.
> 
> *THE INDIANS CONCLUDED THAT F16 BLOCK 60 & 3 OTHERS are not capable enough to meet india needs*
> 
> they went with typhoon & rafael.
> 
> so to paf good luk with your F16 BLOCK 52s





LOLz.....F-16s didn't meet India's requirement, when they met the requirements of more than 20 diverse nations.....

From Norway and it's winter to the deserts of Israel.


Sure man.....did you figure all that by using your own pea sized brain?

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## Pak1Samurai

back on the topic please!! PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> So far
> 
> We HAVE RAF ACM claiming the Typhoon BEAT the SU30MKI in indrdush excercises in 2007
> 
> PAF flyers are claiming their F16s block 15S beat the TYPHOON in wvr dog fight
> 
> BEFORE all of this in cope india 2005 SU30K beat USA F15 in india
> 
> AND SU30MKI beat singpores F16/52 in joint exc ercises in 2008. as per indian noise
> 
> " in other words wat are we to believe to be correct "
> 
> WHAT I KNOW THE IAF jjust spent last 1 year evaluating. flight testing to the max both in deserts of rajasthan & valleys of LEH & KASHMIR all the 6 best fighters of the 4 generation era.
> 
> THESE INCLUDED F16/60 with AESA and Gripen & Typhoon. rafael & f18 super hornet.
> 
> THE INDIANS CONCLUDED THAT F16 BLOCK 60 & 3 OTHERS are not capable enough to meet india needs
> 
> they went with typhoon & rafael.
> 
> so to paf good luk with your F16 BLOCK 52s



all fighters were capable..the decision was based merely on politics ..


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## danger007

IceCold said:


> Of course anything that India buys automatically becomes superior to all the rest in the world. We are very much familar with the trend.
> 
> 
> Thanks now can we get back on the topic which is about Jxx and PAF and not the F-16s and certainly not about IAF.


 
Actually it applicable to pakistan, india have choices and freedom to choose, and for pak it depends on soft loans, free aid. We are choosing best one. lolz yesterday one pakistani said jf17-11 is greater or equal to f35,mig35.isn't it funny.


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## Black Widow

IceCold said:


> Of course anything that India buys automatically becomes superior to all the rest in the world. We are very much familar with the trend.
> 
> 
> Thanks now can we get back on the topic which is about Jxx and PAF and not the F-16s and certainly not about IAF.



Very sad to see that the JXX thread become IAF vs PAF thread...


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## IceCold

danger007 said:


> Actually it applicable to pakistan, india have choices and freedom to choose, and for pak it depends on soft loans, free aid. We are choosing best one. lolz yesterday one pakistani said jf17-11 is greater or equal to f35,mig35.isn't it funny.



Don't know about the MIG 35 but the Russians themselves consider JF-17 a threat for their MIG-29.
Here is an old article to refresh your memory.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/70114-jft-extremely-close-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan.html

Whether it could compete with the MIG-35 or not is debatable. I am not responsible for what some one says about it to be equal or superior but with constant upgrades and a planned AESA radar in the block 2 JF-17, it could very well match mig-35 in terms of avionics. But MIG-35 will always remain superior in terms of its payload capability just as the F-16s still are in terms of their payload and range capability. 
The comparison however should not be made because both jets belong to a different category and role.

This is the last off topic reply. The thread is about PAF and JXX. Lets get back to the topic shall we.


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## ziaulislam

danger007 said:


> Actually it applicable to pakistan, india have choices and freedom to choose, and for pak it depends on soft loans, free aid. We are choosing best one. lolz yesterday one pakistani said jf17-11 is greater or equal to f35,mig35.isn't it funny.


not more funny then someone saying LCA is better than F22

econmy is in crunch..maynot be tomorrow..as it wasnt in mid2000s and late 80s..


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## Black Widow

ziaulislam said:


> not more funny then someone saying LCA is better than F22



And who said that???? I don think any Indian member is so naive...

Its not funny if some one say "LCA is better than F22 " in specific context... 

1. It is cheaper, so cost wise its better.. 
2. Its capable (hopefully) to handle MiG21 (Pakistan almost 200 and chinese almost 700), which doesn't need 300 million $ plane..
3. Our enemy is not America neither they have stealth fighter.
4. It gives us experience which F22 won't give us (coz USA will not sell it)..

But if talk @ capabilities F22 is far far better than any available fighter planes on earth (FGFA and J20 is not operational)


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## ziaulislam

Black Widow said:


> And who said that???? I don think any Indian member is so naive...
> 
> Its not funny if some one say "LCA is better than F22 " in specific context...
> 
> 1. It is cheaper, so cost wise its better..
> 2. Its capable (hopefully) to handle MiG21 (Pakistan almost 200 and chinese almost 700), which doesn't need 300 million $ plane..
> 3. Our enemy is not America neither they have stealth fighter.
> 4. It gives us experience which F22 won't give us (coz USA will not sell it)..
> 
> But if talk @ capabilities F22 is far far better than any available fighter planes on earth (FGFA and J20 is not operational)



see you just said it


----------



## aimarraul

some possible concepts:

single engine JXX













stealthy JF17

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## Storm Force

Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.

This is ridiculous thread since JXX is a 100% chinease prototype and a decade way from PLAAF induction.

JUST BECAUSE THUNDER was built for PAF people putting 2 + 2 making 100 

not seen a single credible source on JXX and PAF. 

We may as well start once saying F35 & F22 and PAF /IAF.

we should at least be realistic and have some proofs credible none of this my uncle told me or my father is in top secret engineer in JXX 5 PROGRAMME in chengdu


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## conworldus

Storm Force said:


> Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.
> 
> This is ridiculous thread since JXX is a 100% chinease prototype and a decade way from PLAAF induction.
> 
> JUST BECAUSE THUNDER was built for PAF people putting 2 + 2 making 100
> 
> not seen a single credible source on JXX and PAF.
> 
> We may as well start once saying F35 & F22 and PAF /IAF.
> 
> we should at least be realistic and have some proofs credible none of this my uncle told me or my father is in top secret engineer in JXX 5 PROGRAMME in chengdu



The J20 flew just ONE year after the T50 flew. If the T50 is entering service in 2015, which is only 3 - 4 years away, why would the J-20 need a decade?


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## PWFI

Storm Force said:


> Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.
> 
> This is ridiculous thread since JXX is a 100% chinease prototype and a decade way from PLAAF induction.
> 
> JUST BECAUSE THUNDER was built for PAF people putting 2 + 2 making 100
> 
> not seen a single credible source on JXX and PAF.
> 
> We may as well start once saying F35 & F22 and PAF /IAF.
> 
> we should at least be realistic and have some proofs credible none of this my uncle told me or my father is in top secret engineer in JXX 5 PROGRAMME in chengdu



I understand your frustration 
There are lot of credible source like Pshamim,nabil,houshangai...confirming a 5th generation project for PAF !!
BTW 2+2=4 not 100  We will get 5generation fighter like we got FC-20

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## tanlixiang28776

conworldus said:


> The J20 flew just ONE year after the T50 flew. If the T50 is entering service in 2015, which is only 3 - 4 years away, why would the J-20 need a decade?



Because Indians wish it will.

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## Storm Force

PAK FA is a decade away from induction 
ie 2020 for india and maybe 2 years earlier for russian version 

I HAVE NO DOUBT JXX will enter PLAAF by or before the indian fgfa 

MY DOUBT IS THE PAF link


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## danger007

many of my fellow members saying jf-17 blk -II will come with AESA Radar nd it will be far more comparable to mig-35 or f-35. Are they thinking mig-35 will neva go for updates. When russians consider JFT is comparable to mig-29.


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## conworldus

Aren't the Russians saying that they will start mass producing it in 2015? I am putting J-20 around 2018. The FGFA based on the T-50 I am banking around 2020



Storm Force said:


> PAK FA is a decade away from induction
> ie 2020 for india and maybe 2 years earlier for russian version
> 
> I HAVE NO DOUBT JXX will enter PLAAF by or before the indian fgfa
> 
> MY DOUBT IS THE PAF link


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## Asfand

Arms acquisition works same in India and Pakland.

Here is the modus oprendi.

Based on the foreign exchange at hand the country decides whether they want to develop their own or buy from a foreign country. Buying from a foreign country is always favored as it brings kick back. Developing at home reduces the amount of kick backs and is not favored. 

Lately Pakistan has no choice but to develop their own tank (Al Khalid) and its own plane JF-17 as the cash reserves are very low. If the cash reserves have been high than Pakistanis will simply acquire from foreign suppliers.

India on the other hand has a lot of cash at hand thus the foreign purchases. T90 tanks from Russia and the latest 125 plane purchase is a good example. Now where does the LCA and Arjun tank stands in this scheme of things. Well, we like to show the nation that we can build our self. However once built the Arjun tank and LCA will be produced in very small quantities and later shelved for a more advanced versions of them and will start a new research programs. These research programs will run another 10 to 15 years and may result in a better tank and a plane and the cycle will be repeated again. Foreign purchases will continue if cash at hand situation remains good and will change if the cash at hand turns in to a Pakistan like situation.


----------



## IceCold

Storm Force said:


> Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.
> 
> This is ridiculous thread since JXX is a 100% chinease prototype and a decade way from PLAAF induction.
> 
> JUST BECAUSE THUNDER was built for PAF people putting 2 + 2 making 100
> 
> not seen a single credible source on JXX and PAF.
> 
> We may as well start once saying F35 & F22 and PAF /IAF.
> 
> we should at least be realistic and have some proofs credible none of this my uncle told me or my father is in top secret engineer in JXX 5 PROGRAMME in chengdu



If you have a problem with the thread there is always a report button. Stop flooding the thread with your nonsensical BS. We are not here to satisfy certain egos here. This is how things have always worked for Pakistan and its armed forces.You cant digest that leave the thread in peace.

By the way isnt this thread started by you to begin with?

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## krash

Storm Force said:


> *Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF*.
> 
> This is ridiculous thread since JXX is a 100% chinease prototype and a decade way from PLAAF induction.
> 
> JUST BECAUSE THUNDER was built for PAF people putting 2 + 2 making 100
> 
> not seen a single credible source on JXX and PAF.
> 
> We may as well start once saying F35 & F22 and PAF /IAF.
> 
> we should at least be realistic and have some proofs credible none of this my uncle told me or my father is in top secret engineer in JXX 5 PROGRAMME in chengdu



Easy boy easy........We know its hard for you. But dont worry acceptance does follow denial. You'll see the bird soon exactly like you saw the JF-17, J-10b/FC-20, J-20, etc. All this frustration isn't doing you any good, I mean you dont even remember that you your self started this thread. Its making you go insane. Please delete your account and leave this forum. I only say this for your own health's sake.........promise......

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## Zabaniyah

Storm Force said:


> Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.
> 
> This is ridiculous thread since JXX is a 100% chinease prototype and a decade way from PLAAF induction.
> 
> JUST BECAUSE THUNDER was built for PAF people putting 2 + 2 making 100
> 
> not seen a single credible source on JXX and PAF.
> 
> We may as well start once saying F35 & F22 and PAF /IAF.
> 
> we should at least be realistic and have some proofs credible none of this my uncle told me or my father is in top secret engineer in JXX 5 PROGRAMME in chengdu



Talk about a case of inferiority complex


----------



## [--Leo--]

danger007 said:


> Actually it applicable to pakistan, india have choices and freedom to choose, and for pak it depends on soft loans, free aid. We are choosing best one. lolz yesterday one pakistani said jf17-11 is greater or equal to f35,mig35.isn't it funny.


'

Well Just 1 pakistani are you ok man yesterday i m gona say tejas is greater than F-22 with any offical source thats gona really happened? well i can say JF-17 Can tackle any 4xxth Gen Fighter but not 5th gen it is just over view not thats confirm so indian made their choice and pakistan made their they are different aircraft but same class well its up to them who to fly and how to countrer if they have greater capablity In the past india have greater planes and greater capability and numbers but pakistani pilot defend and apply counter attack so its about not great plane but how you utilize it but when it comparable if gen 3 and 5 you can never win but but gen 4 vs 4 will be cat and dog fight gen 4 vs 5 less chance but Gen 5 with small capable and Gen 5 with high capble sure make good fight


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## abaseen99




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## ziaulislam

Asfand said:


> Arms acquisition works same in India and Pakland.
> 
> Here is the modus oprendi.
> 
> Based on the foreign exchange at hand the country decides whether they want to develop their own or buy from a foreign country. Buying from a foreign country is always favored as it brings kick back. Developing at home reduces the amount of kick backs and is not favored.
> 
> Lately Pakistan has no choice but to develop their own tank (Al Khalid) and its own plane JF-17 as the cash reserves are very low. If the cash reserves have been high than Pakistanis will simply acquire from foreign suppliers.
> 
> India on the other hand has a lot of cash at hand thus the foreign purchases. T90 tanks from Russia and the latest 125 plane purchase is a good example. Now where does the LCA and Arjun tank stands in this scheme of things. Well, we like to show the nation that we can build our self. However once built the Arjun tank and LCA will be produced in very small quantities and later shelved for a more advanced versions of them and will start a new research programs. These research programs will run another 10 to 15 years and may result in a better tank and a plane and the cycle will be repeated again. Foreign purchases will continue if cash at hand situation remains good and will change if the cash at hand turns in to a Pakistan like situation.



jf-17 would have been there even if we didnt had a ban..paf was already working on sabre2 problem was a country like us couldnt have done without partying with third county..and noone would party with us other than china..


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## HavocHeaven

A few hours ago, Huzhigeng@CDF said explicitly Chengdu is developing a fifth generation stealth fighter for PAF.
1. PAF officers have gone through the proposal and they are satisfied.
2. The new fighter is expected to be on par with T-50.
3. Money is the issue. Hu said Chengdu and PAF are trying to convince PLAAF to fund the development (at least partially, I guess).

BTW, Huzhigeng also confirmed that Shenyang will show us a prototype of the Chinese version of F-35 by the end of this year. J/W, will PAF acquire the Shenyang F-35 or J-20 rather than develop a whole new fighter? Will PAF engineers be involved in design team of the new fighter ?

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## Sinnerman108

HavocHeaven said:


> A few hours ago, Huzhigeng@CDF said explicitly Chengdu is developing a fifth generation stealth fighter for PAF.
> 1. PAF officers have gone through the proposal and they are satisfied.
> 2. The new fighter is expected to be on par with T-50.
> 3. Money is the issue. Hu said Chengdu and PAF are trying to convince PLAAF to fund the development (at least partially, I guess).
> 
> BTW, Huzhigeng also confirmed that Shenyang will show us a prototype of the Chinese version of F-35 by the end of this year. J/W, will PAF acquire the Shenyang F-35 or J-20 rather than develop a whole new fighter? Will PAF engineers be involved in design team of the new fighter ?



This is HUGE news if true ...
the implications will be Gigantic.


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## Doctor09

good news.......... i am waiting for prototypes 
i wish all these romours become reality


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## DARKY

PWFI said:


> I understand your frustration
> There are lot of credible source like Pshamim,nabil,houshangai...confirming a 5th generation project for PAF !!
> BTW 2+2=4 not 100  We will get 5generation fighter like we got FC-20



Although People have confirmed the 5th generation project for PAF being made in Chine by their insiders.....etc....
A few arguments I would like to present.

1. We are yet to see the J-XX design/Prototype..... this J-XX was rumored ever since people saw F-22 flying and when we had 
J-20 1st flight people were saying that XX=20 and a huge fighter appeared on screen.

2. China is currently facing a lot of problems in Engine production/manufacturing and are forced to buy Russians engines for the 1st lot of their 4th generation fighter J-010Bs.

3.We are yet to see any promising breakthrough in electronics, passive sensors etc...... on 4th gen. Chinese planes...... say for that matter we are yet to see a fighter borne AESA in service with PLAAF.

4. Some how it fails me to understand how would Pakistan pay for the developmental costs of the new fighter which people are claiming to be on par with PAK FA....... If a 15 million $$ plane is what they buy...... any thing on par with T-50 would coast around 150 million $$ per piece even going by Chinese standards..... about 10 times more.

5. If some how out of the deeper than Ocean higher than Sky and sweeter than Honey friendship forces PLAAF to fund for the development from their own pockets what number would the PAF would be able to purchase to provide adequate profits to the manufacturer...... any substantial order means 200+ birds to keep the mill running.

And to all those who are claiming that PAF has "GOT" J-10B we are yet to see them entering for limited scale production for the PLAAF which would test the fighter with regular pilots modifies and tweak the plane accordingly for commercial production which takes at least 1-2 years how can PAF have them now ??........ Chinese Members please shed some light here.


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## danger007

HavocHeaven said:


> A few hours ago, Huzhigeng@CDF said explicitly Chengdu is developing a fifth generation stealth fighter for PAF.
> 1. PAF officers have gone through the proposal and they are satisfied.
> 2. The new fighter is expected to be on par with T-50.
> 3. Money is the issue. Hu said Chengdu and PAF are trying to convince PLAAF to fund the development (at least partially, I guess).
> 
> BTW, Huzhigeng also confirmed that Shenyang will show us a prototype of the Chinese version of F-35 by the end of this year. J/W, will PAF acquire the Shenyang F-35 or J-20 rather than develop a whole new fighter? Will PAF engineers be involved in design team of the new fighter ?




another stealth jet???? i thot right china has JXX only.hmmmm you must be new.


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## abaseen99

i already post on this forum on 13/8/2011 paf stealth fighter and the source of ASIAN DEFENCE but my other member ignor that news


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Indians don't bother ur self about our finances and how many we will get them , we will get them and will let u think a lot before u make any move against us

TARIQ


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## Beast

The new stealth fighter by China will target export market. So it will be single engine. Quite a similiar project like the US F-35. 
F-22 of USAF is strict off for export but F-35 will be exported to friendly countries.

Same as J-20, which will be strict off for export and solely for PLAAF usage only currently. But in a decades time later, it may offer for export. I 'm not sure.....

As for J-20, it will not be as late as 2018 to be put in service. Another 2-3 years, it will be operational.

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## houshanghai

According to what huzigeng said today. 

j2x is a single-engined 5 gen fighter, especially designed for PAF and the first customer is just PAF . 

j2x canard version&#65288; for your reference only&#65289;










Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119. 

there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.

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## Desert Fox

Storm Force said:


> *Why do people open threads like JXX & PAF.
> 
> This is ridiculous thread*



Lolz, but your the one who started this thread 
Proof, here is your post: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/85440-paf-jxx-fifth-gen-fighter.html#post1352615


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## HavocHeaven

DARKY said:


> Although People have confirmed the 5th generation project for PAF being made in Chine by their insiders.....etc....
> A few arguments I would like to present.
> 
> 1. We are yet to see the J-XX design/Prototype..... this J-XX was rumored ever since people saw F-22 flying and when we had
> J-20 1st flight people were saying that XX=20 and a huge fighter appeared on screen.
> 
> 2. China is currently facing a lot of problems in Engine production/manufacturing and are forced to buy Russians engines for the 1st lot of their 4th generation fighter J-010Bs.
> 
> 3.We are yet to see any promising breakthrough in electronics, passive sensors etc...... on 4th gen. Chinese planes...... say for that matter we are yet to see a fighter borne AESA in service with PLAAF.
> 
> 4. Some how it fails me to understand how would Pakistan pay for the developmental costs of the new fighter which people are claiming to be on par with PAK FA....... If a 15 million $$ plane is what they buy...... any thing on par with T-50 would coast around 150 million $$ per piece even going by Chinese standards..... about 10 times more.
> 
> 5. If some how out of the deeper than Ocean higher than Sky and sweeter than Honey friendship forces PLAAF to fund for the development from their own pockets what number would the PAF would be able to purchase to provide adequate profits to the manufacturer...... any substantial order means 200+ birds to keep the mill running.
> 
> And to all those who are claiming that PAF has "GOT" J-10B we are yet to see them entering for limited scale production for the PLAAF which would test the fighter with regular pilots modifies and tweak the plane accordingly for commercial production which takes at least 1-2 years how can PAF have them now ??........ Chinese Members please shed some light here.



1. It's true China's WS-10 production capacity is an issue, but that's addressable.

2 According to one of J-10B pictures, obviously J-10B is equipped with an ESA radar by Nanjing 14th Institute. Huzhigeng@CDF mentioned that the 14th Institute responded to Shenyang F-35-like jet program's Request of Proposal with the J-10B's AESA radar solution, but lost to Wuxi 607th Institute. This implies J-10B, which is going to achieve IOC in a few months, is equipped with an AESA radar.

3. Huzhigeng said funding is not a done deal. So I was curious why not just acquire J-20 or the Shenyang fighter. I also agree profitability could be another problem. Probably co-production will be involved to minimize the cost? I don't know.

4. I also don't know the one squadron of J-10s will be J-10A + MLU package or J-10B. If PAF gets them any time earlier than 2012, I would be surprised if those are J-10Bs. Media says China government will pay for them, but it's not confirmed yet (I trust Huzhigeng more than media). If that's a free lunch, why not just take it?


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## Beast

houshanghai said:


> Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
> Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119.
> 
> there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.



SAC JXX bigger than J-20? Then it will become a bomber... Or Chinese version of Su-34?


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## houshanghai

Beast said:


> SAC JXX bigger than J-20? Then it will become a bomber... Or Chinese version of Su-34?


 
Just the same,but SAC JXX is a 5 gen fighter and it have 4S standards as same as F22 J20 T50.
huzigeng said SAC JXX is a offence 5 gen multi-purpose fighter , SAC jxx's major role will be A TO G.

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## HavocHeaven

houshanghai said:


> According to what huzigeng said today.
> 
> j2x is a single-engined 5 gen fighter, especially designed for PAF and the first customer is just PAF .
> 
> Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
> Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119.
> 
> there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.



Yep, Huzhigeng said F-35, J-20 and the Shenyang fighter beat F-22 avionics wise coz F-22 is a design one decade ago, but overall F-22 is still better than all 5th generation fighters (F-35, J-20, T-50 and the Shenyang fighter). Specifically, rear RCS of J-20 is not even roughly comparable to F-22. 

WS-15 program looks fine ATM. Let's keep our fingers crossed XD . I will be a sad panda if it failed.

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## HavocHeaven

Beast said:


> SAC JXX bigger than J-20? Then it will become a bomber... Or Chinese version of Su-34?



If my memory is good, Huzhigeng described SAC JXX as a stealthy multirole fighter. It seems to me more like a 5th gen version of SU-30 than SU-34.

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## HavocHeaven

houshanghai said:


> j2x canard version&#65288; for your reference only&#65289;



Is J2X a Canard design? Is it upgraded J-10B, downgraded J-20 or something completely new?


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## Ethnic

Any photos of WS-15?


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## houshanghai

HavocHeaven said:


> Yep, Huzhigeng said F-35, J-20 and the Shenyang fighter beat F-22 avionics wise coz F-22 is a design one decade ago, but overall F-22 is still better than all 5th generation fighters (F-35, J-20, T-50 and the Shenyang fighter). Specifically, rear RCS of J-20 is not even roughly comparable to F-22.
> 
> WS-15 program looks fine ATM. Let's keep our fingers crossed XD . I will be a sad panda if it failed.



Just relax you should believe our jet engine engineers will overcome all difficulties





HavocHeaven said:


> Is J2X a Canard design? Is it upgraded J-10B, downgraded J-20 or something completely new?



it is not J10 or JFT variation .j2x is a new design 5 gen fighter.

SAC JXX is a conventional design.but the design of CAC J2X is still unknown . it depends that PAF will select canards or conventional design at last.

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## DARKY

HavocHeaven said:


> 1. It's true China's WS-10 production capacity is an issue, but that's addressable.
> 
> 2 According to one of J-10B pictures, obviously J-10B is equipped with an ESA radar by Nanjing 14th Institute. Huzhigeng@CDF mentioned that the 14th Institute responded to Shenyang F-35-like jet program's Request of Proposal with the J-10B's AESA radar solution, but lost to Wuxi 607th Institute. This implies J-10B, which is going to achieve IOC in a few months, is equipped an AESA radar.
> 
> 3. Huzhigeng said funding is not a done deal. So I was curious why not just acquire J-20 or the Shenyang fighter. I also agree profitability could be another problem. Probably co-production will be involved to minimize the cost? I don't know.
> 
> 4. I also don't know the one squadron of J-10s will be J-10A + MLU package or J-10B. If PAF gets them any time earlier than 2012, I would be surprised if those are J-10Bs. Media says China government will pay for them, but it's not confirmed yet (I trust Huzhigeng more than media). If that's a free lunch, why not just take it?


 
1. Offcourse China would be able to take care of the WS-10 and it would get only better with time just like the AL-31 turbofans........however that would take time..... as it takes every where.

2. Might be, I was talking about an operational AESA...... collecting T/R modules for AESA is not just enough..... the main work on AESA starts with the flight testing of the radar and data integration of various microwave emmiters and reflectors.... a lot of algorithms has to be written and processed which takes time..... US took about 10 years to perfect that art..... hence it is rolling AESA after AESA very fast now...... there also has to be proper industrial manufacturing of Gallium and Arsenic T/R modules for a speedy and cost effective production...... I would expect China to perfect the art in about 5 years.

3.Yes why not acquire the J-20 instead which would save the cost and help the production line even.

4.Yes thats a free lunch the 50 J-17s aswell as 34 J-10Bs...... I can understand that China has very strong interests in SA..... and it is willing to provide top notch technologies..... but free lunch ??.... I would expect the PLA commanders to base their better equipments in Pakistan itself rather than offering them in their hands...... Pakistan is already giving them ***** to their strategic bases on their home soil.




houshanghai said:


> According to what huzigeng said today.
> 
> j2x is a single-engined 5 gen fighter, especially designed for PAF and the first customer is just PAF .
> 
> j2x canard version&#65288; for your reference only&#65289;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese other 5 gen fighter,SAC Jxx will make its first-flight in January. SAC JXX is a 5 GEN fighter of conventional design and it is bigger than J20.
> Chinese jet engine is no problem,WS15's work is going along tip-top.WS15(tvc) will be the same level as USA F119.
> 
> there have at least 2 AESA options for chinese 5 gen fighter.J20's avionics will be the same level as USA F35 and all CAC J20 or SAC JXX avionics will be ahead of F22.



So when do we get to see the photoshopped images of the single engined fighter....... or blurred images even ??
what engine it would be powered by what are the possible specifications ??

We'll see about the tests to be done in January....... Its not much far.... any way congratulations with the 2nd project in advance...... hope we would get to see some exclusive images from your side.

Bigger than J-20 means about 23 meters is it what about weight is it heavier ??...... If you are correct then there are very dismal chances that PAF would by your J-XX.

As I said AESA does not mean only packing T/R modules...... Flight testing/evolution of AESA is the most crucial part and it takes time.

We would see about WS-15 only once it starts flight testing WS-10 took 24 years to join the airforce..... I would expect WS-15 to take atleast 15 years..... If it is a new engine and not a bigger and upgraded WS-10 type.

Again its not matching or surpassing..... its about catching.... 1st reach where the 1st guy is running then think about overtaking him...... US has 100s of men currently working on even better avionics and they are not sitting idlely/lazily..... for Chinese to overtake them.


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## Beast

DARKY said:


> We would see about WS-15 only once it starts flight testing WS-10 took 24 years to join the airforce..... I would expect WS-15 to take atleast 15 years..... If it is a new engine and not a bigger and upgraded WS-10 type.
> 
> Again its not matching or surpassing..... its about catching.... 1st reach where the 1st guy is running then think about overtaking him...... US has 100s of men currently working on even better avionics and they are not sitting idlely/lazily..... for Chinese to overtake them.



I already say before. WS-10 took many years to complete does not mean WS-15 will be that long. Can I say if India take 20 years to complete Kaveri Engine then whatever new generation of engine made will take 20 years to complete? Surely, you will not agree on this part,right?

WS-10 is a very new and modern aviation combat turbofan for China during the 90's.. Of cos, the path to complete it is tough and challenging. Because China at the 90's and early 2000s technology is stil infant. But the complete of WS-10 gives many insight, patent and technology breakthrough for China aviation. Making possible subsequent generation of engine easier to develop. Experience gain also helps.

As for your assumption , US is not idling and will always ahead of competitor is awefully wrong. Project and capable man needs money. And it is precisely what US is lacking... Didn't you see recent US economic woes? Without money, even with most capable men. Nothing will happen. It is how Soviet Union(Russia) technology edge erroding. Their brightest engineer left when China could offer them millions of dollars instead of staying in Russia and rot.

China could afford 1000 engineers and work on the same project. Making it much faster than what the American did. The only problem is China start it much later than USA. Now we are playing the catch up game but the pace we are moving is much faster than the westerner can predict. China also pour in many money in its own talent and facilities.. Talents like Yang Wei and Song Wencong resposnsible for J-10, FC-1 and J-20 and Zhang Enhe (designer of WS-10)are good example of wise money spend and produce this pool of talent.

Mark my words. The next generation of jet engine after (F119)will be produced first by Chinese. Unless USA can quickly fix their economic woes. Their edge will be over very soon.


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## HavocHeaven

DARKY said:


> 1. Offcourse China would be able to take care of the WS-10 and it would get only better with time just like the AL-31 turbofans........however that would take time..... as it takes every where.
> 
> 2. Might be, I was talking about an operational AESA...... collecting T/R modules for AESA is not just enough..... the main work on AESA starts with the flight testing of the radar and data integration of various microwave emmiters and reflectors.... a lot of algorithms has to be written and processed which takes time..... US took about 10 years to perfect that art..... hence it is rolling AESA after AESA very fast now...... there also has to be proper industrial manufacturing of Gallium and Arsenic T/R modules for a speedy and cost effective production...... I would expect China to perfect the art in about 5 years.
> 
> .....................
> 
> Again its not matching or surpassing..... its about catching.... 1st reach where the 1st guy is running then think about overtaking him...... US has 100s of men currently working on even better avionics and they are not sitting idlely/lazily..... for Chinese to overtake them.



1. It does take time. Actually I won't be surprised if we import more AL-31 engines in near future. Engine manufacturing capacity cannot be improved overnight.

2. Agreed, an AESA and an AESA working properly could be two different stories. Japan's J/APG-1 taught everyone a good lesson. Therefore I won't 100% believe it before I see it.

3. Regarding avionics, Huzhigeng said avionics of F-35 of USAF is the best in the world.


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## Beast

HavocHeaven said:


> 1. It does take time. Actually I won't be surprised if we import more AL-31 engines in near future. Engine manufacturing capacity cannot be improved overnight.
> 
> 2. Agreed, an AESA and an AESA working properly could be two different stories. Japan's J/APG-1 taught everyone a good lesson. Therefore I won't 100% believe it before I see it.
> 
> 3. Regarding avionics, Huzhigeng said avionics of F-35 of USAF is the best in the world.



Probably the USAF version of F-35 is the best. But the export one surely will be downgraded...


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## AsianLion

What is Pakistani new name for J31 stealth aircraft ?


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## trident2010

AsianUnion said:


> What is Pakistani new name for J31 stealth aircraft ?



Hawa Mahal .. lol 

Its too early for this my friend.

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## AUz

trident2010 said:


> *Hawa Mahal .. lol *
> 
> Its too early for this my friend.





u r right


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