# Astra Missile - india, Pakistan's reply?



## Averroes

What Systems do Pakistan use? I can't seem to find the relevant information on this site.

I found this Astra missile on wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_missile



> *Specifications*
> 
> *First test*: May 9, 2003
> *Total length*: 3570 mm (11.7 ft)
> *Diameter*: 7 in (178 mm )
> *Wingspan*: 10 in (254 mm)
> *Weight*: 154 kg (339 lb) < 250 kg (550 lb) including launcher
> *Warhead* :15 kg (33 lb) HE fragmentation directional warhead *Fuze*: Radar proximity fuze
> *Propulsion*: solid fuel
> *Maximum speed*: Mach 4 +
> *Maximum effective range*: 80 km head on, 15 km tail chase, over 100 km (eventually)
> *Maximum altitude*: 20 km (66,000 ft)
> *Minimum altitude*: sea level
> *Missile g load*: 40 _g_ (400 m/sÃÂ²)
> *Target g load*: 9 _g_ (90 m/sÃÂ²)
> *Guidance mode*: Inertial + mid-course update & terminal active radar (15 km) *Launch aircraft speed*: Mach 0.6 to 2.2 Data is based on handouts and discussion at DRDO stall AERO INDIA 2003 & 05.


 
Pakistan will receive some old version Amraams with the F-16s they're getting ( if it goes through, now they want Pakistan to promie they wont share intel? ) , and what do they use before getting them?

Any regards as how they match up to indias?

How do you block lock ons with these sort of air to air missiles, says this one has 100 km range eventually, that's quite scary odds. u have a missile at subsonic speed when u can't even see a fighter in the air. Flaring? Jam it?

Thanks

:army:


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## Ahassan

I think pakistan is producing A-darter with south africa,better than astra.....

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## araz

AverrÃÂ¶es said:


> What Systems do Pakistan use? I can't seem to find the relevant information on this site.
> 
> I found this Astra missile on wiki.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_missile
> 
> Pakistan will receive some old version Amraams with the F-16s they're getting ( if it goes through, now they want Pakistan to promie they wont share intel? ) , and what do they use before getting them?
> 
> Any regards as how they match up to indias?
> 
> How do you block lock ons with these sort of air to air missiles, says this one has 100 km range eventually, that's quite scary odds. u have a missile at subsonic speed when u can't even see a fighter in the air. Flaring? Jam it?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> :army:


Brother,
Pakistan will recieveAMRAAM 120C5 version,which would be the most advanced version of AMRAAM in this arena. Ithink our neighbours are having a few sleepless nights at the moment. I would not believe all that you read on Wikipedia. It is not always that updated and prone to "interference". I am sure other more knowledgeable members would answer your other question as I do not have the appropriate background.
I hope this helps.
Araz

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## MOO

Astra, according to the article will have a strike range of 80 km. It's more in range and comparison to the PL-12 Air-to-air missile for the JH-17 warplane. The latest Aim-120 definetly improved Pakistans air-to-air capabilities, but lets not forgot India also has long range Russian R-73 and R-77 equipped on their latest Flankers and Migs. Lets not get to carried away here guys. 


Astra: basically an Indian version of the R-77.


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## master_fx

so wats the point of sd-10?


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## A.Rahman

We are getting SD-10

The *SD-10* is a BVRAAM (Beyond visual range Air to Air Missile) developed for the Pakistan Air Force & People's Liberation Army Air Force. The early versions are speculated to be at least equivalent to United States' AIM-120B AMRAAM system. BVRAAMs have become a very important weapon in modern air-to-air combat & have become a requirement of every Air Force.

The countries which were denied AIM-120 AMRAAMs by the US have gradually become interested in the concurrent JF-17 program because of the SD-10, but both China & Pakistan are reluctant to sell it. Egypt for one became interested in JF-17 because of SD-10. They are also interested in Technology transfer of JF-17 it self. Earlier China had agreed technology transfer of K-8 advance trainers to Egypt. However it is speculated that Egypt too like North Korea, Bangladesh, Nigeria & Zimbabwe would be denied SD-10 early on.

Besides JF-17 Thunder the SD-10 will also be mounted on China's J-10 fighters. Some F-7 PG versions may also be mounted with it, however it would still not save F-7s from being grounded & mostly be replaced by JF-17s.


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## A.Rahman

*Specifications for SD-10*

Length: 3.85 m
Body diameter: 203 mm
Wing span: n/k
Launch weight: 180 kg
Warhead: HE fragmentation
Fuze: Active proximity fuse
Guidance: Inertial mid-course and /or datalink updates, with active radar terminal homing
Propulsion: Solid dual-thrust rocket motor
Range: At least 70 Km in early version

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## master_fx

i meant if Astra is better than sd-10...... (there would be no point for pakistan to get sd-10 if Astra is much better than sd-10)

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## MOO

I doubt that the Indian Astra missile would be better than the SD-10. China after all with their proven track record did develop the SD-10. The fact that anything that India tries to build on their own, it always comes out in faults. Nothing just seems to ever work for them, cough* LCA and Arjun anybody?

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## Unbreakable

Airbus... A-darter is a WVR-AAM ... T-Darter is a BVRAAM


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## Arrow

MOO said:


> I doubt that the Indian Astra missile would be better than the SD-10. China after all with their proven track record did develop the SD-10. The fact that anything that India tries to build on their own, it always comes out in faults. Nothing just seems to ever work for them, cough* LCA and Arjun anybody?



Fancy words dont equate to the reality.

The fact is that thanks to the Arjun & the LCA, India can now upgrade its tanks & aircraft on its own, with its design engineers leading the process as well as take part as equals in multi-national projects.

Do wake us up when Pakistan achieves the same. If ever.

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## Owais

Unbreakable said:


> Airbus... A-darter is a WVR-AAM ... T-Darter is a BVRAAM


Can any one provides info. about A-Darter and T-Darter? are these joint ventures between pakistan and S.A??


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## waz

Arrow said:


> Fancy words dont equate to the reality.
> 
> The fact is that thanks to the Arjun & the LCA, India can now upgrade its tanks & aircraft on its own, with its design engineers leading the process as well as take part as equals in multi-national projects.
> 
> Do wake us up when Pakistan achieves the same. If ever.



Pakistan has been doing this for years with its F-16 and Mirage fleet, let's not forget the upgraded tanks and the Al-Khalid.....

I admit it's ignorant to ignore the advances India has made even if the LCA and the Arjun did not turn out as well as they hoped but your post is just as bad.

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## waz

Owais said:


> Can any one provides info. about A-Darter and T-Darter? are these joint ventures between pakistan and S.A??



The A darter is set to be a fantastic Air to air missile with some of the worlds leading companies in defence research contributing to its make up. Here is a link showing BAE coming on board with their new inertial measurement unit. 

*A new solid-state inertial measurement unit (SiIMU02) developed by BAE Systems has been selected to provide mid-course guidance for the new A-Darter air-to-air missile produced by Denel Aerospace Systems of South Africa.
A fifth-generation, infrared-guided air-to-air missile system, A-Darter has been designed to meet the challenges of future air combat against fighters equipped with sophisticated electronic countermeasures.*



http://www.spacewar.com/reports/BAE..._Selected_For_New_Air_to_air_Missile_999.html


They are not joint ventures as far as I know but there is deep cooperation with the PAF and Denel Aerospace Systems especially with regards to the air to air missile projects. I canÃ¢â¬â¢t wait for the testing phase of this babyÃ¢â¬Â¦.


Here is some more


Denel offers Pakistan missile deal 
Denel of South Africa is offering Pakistan a package of air-to-air weaponry for its planned Chengdu Super 7 fighter being jointly developed with China. It includes a proposed joint development of a datalink-equipped radar-guided beyond visual range (BVR) missile. 

The Pakistan air force confirms it is evaluating a range of active-guided BVR missiles, including the newly proposed T-Darter development by Denel's Kentron. The air force's Super 7 chief project director, Air Vice Marshal Hamid Khawaja, describes the South African missile as "very impressive on paper". 

*
T-Darter is understood to be a further development of Kentron's radar-equipped R-Darter now in low-rate production and Ramjet-powered S-Darter or LRAAM. *The new proposed air-breathing missile would incorporate a datalink for mid-course guidance updates and effective target engagements at ranges in excess of 50km (27nm). 

The South African company acknowledges *"Kentron has been discussing various proposals for air-to-air missiles with the Pakistan air force. These proposals include the U-Darter and derivatives of the Darter family, such as the fifth generation A-Darter missile, as well as the ramjet technology developed by Denel's Sochem division." *

Pakistan is keen to acquire a BVR capability to counter the Indian air force's likely acquisition of the Vympel AA-12 (R-77) to arm its new Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters and upgraded MiG-29 and MiG-21bis. India also has its indigenous Astra programme. 

"They (India) have the advantage," claims Pakistan's chief of air staff Air Chief Marshal Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi, "-the Su-30s will definitely come with the AA-12 and they also plan to upgrade their other air defence aircraft. We're looking at various BVRs, be it the French (Matra-BAe) Mica, the Russian AA-12 and there are others like South Africa.* "We would also like to develop something ourselves in collaboration with others," says Qureshi. *


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1999/02/24/48464/Denel+offers+Pakistan+missile+deal.html

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## Kaiser

The Astra will be in the same league as the Arjun, LCA, and other indian made weapons, if you know what I mean

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## joey

Dude ... LCA isnt a failed project get it right.
i wouldnt say that far saying pakistani nuke missiles are korean and chinese copy instead i respect their effort so atleast if you cant praise dont say something which aint true.
If you wanna know how far LCA has gone have a look at LCA here . enuff said!.

ASTRAA is a suvvesful missile, it has a very complicated guidance system and uses anti-jamming countermeasures.
if you havent heard something bout "mayabi" israeli and indian EW suite which will be fitted in LCA in a upgrade and which will be fitted in JSF is israel opts fot tht is a little example how advanced electronic warfare we have done.
we have been trailing in engine technology. true 100% period but not electronics or complex software codings!


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## Kaiser

joey said:


> Dude ... LCA isnt a failed project get it right.
> i wouldnt say that far saying pakistani nuke missiles are korean and chinese copy instead i respect their effort so atleast if you cant praise dont say something which aint true.
> If you wanna know how far LCA has gone have a look at LCA here . enuff said!.
> 
> ASTRAA is a suvvesful missile, it has a very complicated guidance system and uses anti-jamming countermeasures.
> if you havent heard something bout "mayabi" israeli and indian EW suite which will be fitted in LCA in a upgrade and which will be fitted in JSF is israel opts fot tht is a little example how advanced electronic warfare we have done.
> we have been trailing in engine technology. true 100% period but not electronics or complex software codings!


 
Where should I look at the LCA? The LCA is a failed indian attempt to make a copy of the mirage 2000 instead its much worser! India has yet to make anything on the LCA, that includes engine, radar, ew, etc...

P.S. Pakistani ballistic missiles are said to be years ahead of india's. I dont think you know about the failed Agni 3 test. Even after that the indian govt tried to show off its newly modified Privithi which exploded even before launch killing 15 people, I bet you didnt see that in the Hindoooostani times, did you?


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## joey

Kaiser said:


> Where should I look at the LCA? The LCA is a failed indian attempt to make a copy of the mirage 2000 instead its much worser! India has yet to make anything on the LCA, that includes engine, radar, ew, etc...
> 
> P.S. Pakistani ballistic missiles are said to be years ahead of india's. I dont think you know about the failed Agni 3 test. Even after that the indian govt tried to show off its newly modified Privithi which exploded even before launch killing 15 people, I bet you didnt see that in the Hindoooostani times, did you?



LMAO LCa failed keep dreaming!? oh well by here click "tht LCA here" its a link  ok for your simplicity http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63091

And bout ICBM's ok i agree pakistani ICBM is advanced and the best!!! :banana2: but sadly enough govt will think 10000 times before using it,  .
havent u heard it can even act as a antiballistic shield to defend against Minuteman 3 and Topol-M, as minuteman 3 is considered now a days more critical than agni so the result anti ballistic system.

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## Bull

Kaiser said:


> P.S. Pakistani ballistic missiles are said to be years ahead of india's. I* dont think you know about the failed Agni 3 test*. Even after that the indian govt tried to show off its *newly modified Privithi which exploded even before launch killing 15 people*, I bet you didnt see that in the Hindoooostani times, did you?


 
Inspite of having a succesfull Space prigram, our Missiles fail.Now why would that happen?Is it because we are trying to do everything ourselves and thats why its so painstaking.Even if the final goal is not achieved, there are lot of other developments thats very usefull.Like the kanchan reactive armour developed for Arjun.And read below,

_"In terms of technology, it is anticipated that India will use its LCA __derived technology spinoffs over the production run, replacing several of the imported components in the current Sukhois, including its Sextant Multifunction displays with local ones, a locally produced display map generator (DMG, currently being sourced from Israel) and more powerful locally designed Open Architecture computers are also a possibility for the MKIs avionics system, replacing the current Indian Mission computers and display processors."_

Now how many failures has Pakistan suffered in its military development history,how many satelites has you managed to put in orbit.

Now lets not making it a spitting contest,im not a vivid fan of India's indegenous plans,nor of yours.

Your missiles are stolen copies,your nukes are suppise to be chineese origin.But what does that change ,Nothing.It still kills and can do the job.Thats all what matters.

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## Skeptic786

Bull said:


> Your missiles are stolen copies,your nukes are suppise to be chineese origin.But what does that change ,Nothing.It still kills and can do the job.Thats all what matters.



for sake of historical accuracy i would say this:

our missiles are not stolen copies.....we gave the chinese and NK proven and advanced centrifuge technology and they in return gave us proven and tested missile technology ( Ghuari from NK and Shaheen's from China ). 

It may come to people as surprise but china did recieve advanced and much more straightforward way of enriching uranium from us...in the form of P2 centrifuges...which the chinese didnot have....having much more laborious and difficult method of enriching uranium....we made their life easy...they made ours.:army:


PS. for the benefit of less knowledgable ones.....enriched uranium is the constant need of nations running civilian and milatary programs...on its own it can fuel the nuclear bomb.....but more commonly nowadays its used to fuel civil nuclear reactors to produce electricity...and the byproducts left in the reactor is plutonium which countries having milatary nuclear projects use to make nuclear bombs.


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## Kaiser

Pakistans early missiles are probraly copy's but our latest missiles (shaheen 2, shaheen 3, ghauri 2, ghauri 3) are all made at home.

These missiles are one of the most advanced and accurate ballistic missiles in the world.


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## Zeeshan S.

I wouldn't just go ahead and call all the early missiles copy. We have not copy anything. We only imported M-13 Ballisitc Missile from China and as far as design familiarization of Ghauri goes with No-dong series, well you can say that it is based on it.


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## Bull

Kaiser said:


> Pakistans early missiles are probraly copy's but our latest missiles (shaheen 2, shaheen 3, ghauri 2, ghauri 3) are all made at home.
> 
> These missiles are one of the most advanced and accurate ballistic missiles in the world.


what published data do you ave with you to say so?


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## Bull

Zeeshan S. said:


> I wouldn't just go ahead and call all the early missiles copy. We have not copy anything. We only imported M-13 Ballisitc Missile from China and as far as design familiarization of Ghauri goes with No-dong series, well you can say that it is based on it.


 
fair enough!!!


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## Skeptic786

Kaiser said:


> Pakistans early missiles are probraly copy's but our latest missiles (shaheen 2, shaheen 3, ghauri 2, ghauri 3) are all made at home.
> 
> These missiles are one of the most advanced and accurate ballistic missiles in the world.



just like we are getting jf-17 technology transffered to produce jf17 at home...same is the case with pakistan;s leading missiles i.e. ghauri and shaheen.

we gave them centrifuge technology ( which has been revealed threadbare in the investigations of A Q Khan network ) and in return got the missile technology....to produce the missiles at home.

The reason i take issue with the word "copy" is that it suggests of their being a trial and error stage with the missile development....which infact is totally missing from pakistan's missile development when it comes to ghauri and shaheen systems. North Korea gave Ghauri and seeing that pakistan had gotten the MRBM technology from NK...china opted to get the centrifuge technology and gave similar capability shaheen....all this happened in the 1990s when Dr A Q khan was sharing the centrifuge technology........note the fact that Ghauri was successfully test fired 11 months before shaheen.....meaning that both NK and China entered into the bartering deals around the same time with pakistan ( roughly same time or lag of few months ). What we gave them was mature technology of centrifuges and they in return gave us tested and mature technology of missiles. So we produce the missiles using that technology as oppose to developing a technology of our own to copy those missiles, if we had done this then there would have been many trial and error stages.


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## Bull

Skeptic786 said:


> we gave them centrifuge technology ( which has been revealed threadbare in the investigations of A Q Khan network ) and in return got the missile technology....to produce the missiles at home.


 
So basically you are agreeing that AQ kahn proliferated with the full knowldge of GOP and now he has become a scape goat.

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## Skeptic786

Bull said:


> So basically you are agreeing that AQ kahn proliferated with the full knowldge of GOP and now he has become a scape goat.



Ofcourse i have said so this on this forum before, see my massive post which is numbered 42 in this thread;

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346&page=5


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## Bull

Skeptic786 said:


> Ofcourse i have said so this on this forum before, see my massive post which is numbered 42 in this thread;
> 
> http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346&page=5


 
Good i was just confirming


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## vijay dahiya

but why pakistan test these missiles just one time. they must test more further to increasethe accuracy of missile.

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## blain2

master_fx said:


> i meant if Astra is better than sd-10...... (there would be no point for pakistan to get sd-10 if Astra is much better than sd-10)



AAMs and weaponry in general is not acquired or developed comparing it like you have done.

SD-10 has its deterrance value. Any IAF aircraft venturing on the Pakistani side knows that PAF has a BVR capability at standoff ranges, they would be very careful. The fact that SD-10 would arm 150+ JF-17s is no small capability. Any BVR AAM, regardless of how crappy its guidance or performance was would make a pilot extremely concerned if one was fired at him/her. If SD-10 is slated/claimed to be equal to AIM-120B means that roughly the JF-17s would be able to operate at the confidence level the USAF CAPs had during GWI. This is not that bad and hell of a lot better capability than the AGM-54 Phoenix and AIM-7 Sparrow days.

Astra was to go into serial production in 2000. This has not happened. At best Astra will be a limited production thing, while the IAF goes to some Israeli, Russian or even US BVR AAM as its mainstay.


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## Skeptic786

vijay dahiya said:


> but why pakistan test these missiles just one time. they must test more further to increasethe accuracy of missile.




although if you read my posts above you will get the answer to your question. but let me repeat the missiles are mature systems and donot require tests.....e.g. once we get the technology to produce jf-17 fighters....we are not going to keep on testing them.....as that has already been done....instead we'll concentrate on serial production....its same with Ghauri and Shaheen missile systems.


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## blain2

Bull said:


> So basically you are agreeing that AQ kahn proliferated with the full knowldge of GOP and now he has become a scape goat.



That is one person's opinion. I do not agree with it. There was plenty that went on at a personal level for which only AQ Khan is responsible.

A very good friend of mine had his father serving as Pakistan's ambassador to NK during the time frame being discussed. The Pakistani acquisition of Missile technology was done solely on the basis of hard cash.


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## Skeptic786

blain2 said:


> That is one person's opinion. I do not agree with it. There was plenty that went on at a personal level for which only AQ Khan is responsible.
> 
> A very good friend of mine had his father serving as Pakistan's ambassador to NK during the time frame being discussed. The Pakistani acquisition of Missile technology was done solely on the basis of hard cash.



Thats right we should believe in third hand rumors rather than american investigators version whose army in south korea has to live in the shadow of NK nukes.


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## blain2

Skeptic786 said:


> although if you read my posts above you will get the answer to your question. but let me repeat the missiles are mature systems and donot require tests.....e.g. once we get the technology to produce jf-17 fighters....we are not going to keep on testing them.....as that has already been done....instead we'll concentrate on serial production....its same with Ghauri and Shaheen missile systems.



Who says we are not? Who do you think will be doing weapons and avionics integration and testing? Who do you think will be refining the aircraft's avionics to integrate features like IRST, HMS etc.? Very little credit has been given to Pakistan eventhough Chinese have had extensive assistance from Pakistani Airforce in all phases of the dev. lifecycle. The aeronautical expertise within the PAF greatly exceeds what pakistan has on the civilian side and as such it would be foolish to assume them to be the same. The entire layout of the cockpit, man-machine interface, avionics and radar in general have been supported by PAF personnel along with the Chinese engineers.

To get an idea about this, read up AFMs article called "Pakistan's newest fighter" which essentially talked about how the PAF assistance resulted in the F-7MG becoming an entirely new aircraft. JF-17 is no exception to this case. As the serial assembly comes to Pakistan, PAF would be responsible for test flights and correction of problems encountered in that process. The aircraft will be the first version, the following ones will have considerable PAF testing and evaluation.


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## blain2

Skeptic786 said:


> Thats right we should believe in third hand rumors rather than american investigators version whose army in south korea has to live in the shadow of NK nukes.



Yes let me think about this one....Americans must have got all of the information right (oh yeah they are Americans, how could they not?, were they not the ones who said that mean old Saddam has nukes??) and not only that. they got all the info needed from China to pin the blame on Pakistan..right?

Give me a break! Based on your posts, China the biggest beneficiary of NK had nothing to do with NK 'snuclear development? Based on your unsubstanciated claims, we are to assume that China told Pakistan to go deal with the NK by bartering nuclear tech. for BMs? Nice story...


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## Skeptic786

blain2 said:


> Yes let me think about this one....Americans must have got all of the information right (oh yeah they are Americans, how could they not?, were they not the ones who said that mean old Saddam has nukes??) and not only that. they got all the info needed from China to pin the blame on Pakistan..right?
> 
> Give me a break! Based on your posts, China the biggest beneficiary of NK had nothing to do with NK 'snuclear development? Based on your unsubstanciated claims, we are to assume that China told Pakistan to go deal with the NK by bartering nuclear tech. for BMs? Nice story...



It is not americans which opened up the NK angle....but once iran and libya gave way....pakistan voluntarily cooperated with investigations regarding nuke help to NK. Americans have the greatest threat from NK......their investigations are not based on their own expertise...but active help and cooperation of Pakistan...which is the very reason A Q Khan has undergone the extensive questioning....and his pardon was conditioned for that very reason.

I didnot say that china said go deal with nk......rather you have it wrong way round...first read my posts correctly and then make comments. NK did the barter deal with Pakistan....once china realised that pakistan had acquired MRBM technology it opted to do the same with pakistan....hence china too gave MRBM technology for the advanced centrifuge technology.

All this was done in a period when Pakistan was cash strapped.


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## blain2

Skeptic786 said:


> It is not americans which opened up the NK angle....but once iran and libya gave way....pakistan voluntarily cooperated with investigations regarding nuke help to NK. Americans have the greatest threat from NK......their investigations are not based on their own expertise...but active help and cooperation of Pakistan...which is the very reason A Q Khan has undergone the extensive questioning....and his pardon was conditioned for that very reason.
> 
> I didnot say that china said go deal with nk......rather you have it wrong way round...first read my posts correctly and then make comments. NK did the barter deal with Pakistan....once china realised that pakistan had acquired MRBM technology it opted to do the same with pakistan....hence china too gave MRBM technology for the advanced centrifuge technology.
> 
> All this was done in a period when Pakistan was cash strapped.



The barter deal is only something that you read about in the US press. It is an unproven claim. This is my point to you. NKs have never said that Pakistani assistane to them was the key. Pakistan has always denied that it bartered for this. AQK angle has some implications for the NK program but I maintain that it was not governemt sanctioned. Also China has known all along where Pakistan was with regards to its BM and Nuclear development and has aided Pakistani development efforts since 1990. This is the reason that each year since then, the Americans and Indians alike have complained about Chinese assistance to Pakistan in both of these fields.

Once again, Pakistan paid a good amount to the NKs for the Missile technology. Pakistan has always financed its nuclear program well enough even when the country was economically challenged.


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## Skeptic786

blain2 said:


> The barter deal is only something that you read about in the US press. It is an unproven claim. This is my point to you. NKs have never said that Pakistani assistane to them was the key. Pakistan has always denied that it bartered for this. AQK angle has some implications for the NK program but I maintain that it was not governemt sanctioned. Also China has known all along where Pakistan was with regards to its BM and Nuclear development and has aided Pakistani development efforts since 1990. This is the reason that each year since then, the Americans and Indians alike have complained about Chinese assistance to Pakistan in both of these fields.
> 
> Once again, Pakistan paid a good amount to the NKs for the Missile technology. Pakistan has always financed its nuclear program well enough even when the country was economically challenged.




American donot have sources inside NK...what they know is with the help and cooperation of pakistan...who have been griling Dr A Q Khan...even stooping to the level of threatening him with death or imprisonment in Guantanomo Bay. American information therefore is not as unreliable as you imply...precisely because it is not based on american sources....but rather pakistan's investigations of Dr A Q Khan.

Lets take the paying of cash to NK for missile technology. Then as matter of fact NK by implication would have had to pay pakistan cash for the P-2 centrifuges. 
Explain then how NK missile technology ended up with A Q Khan...as it was A Q Khan who was delivered the NK missile technology....later unvieled to Pakistanis as Ghauri Missile.


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## blain2

Skeptic786 said:


> American donot have sources inside NK...what they know is with the help and cooperation of pakistan...who have been griling Dr A Q Khan...even stooping to the level of threatening him with death or imprisonment in Guantanomo Bay. American information therefore is not as unreliable as you imply...precisely because it is not based on american sources....but rather pakistan's investigations of Dr A Q Khan.
> 
> Lets take the paying of cash to NK for missile technology. Then as matter of fact NK by implication would have had to pay pakistan cash for the P-2 centrifuges.
> Explain then how NK missile technology ended up with A Q Khan...as it was A Q Khan who was delivered the NK missile technology....later unvieled to Pakistanis as Ghauri Missile.



umm yeah right we would threaten him with a tour of Gitmo....come now....Pakistani information to the US has been that AQK was involved in proliferation to Iran and Libya and others may have bought from the network that he had built. Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK.

The nuclear issue is simply as such that after the nuclear weaponization was achieved, KRL was turned into a research institute to work on the delivery capability. This is the reason that initially some of the missiles were produced by KRL (included stuff like Hatf and then the Anza Manpads etc.). So KRL personnel were also clued up with the BM program.

AQK was not the person "entirely" responsible for the delivery or even the negotiations over the BM ToT. There were many others involved from the Pakistani government standpoint, however as the person representing KRL which had been directed to focus on delivery vehicles for the nuclear weapons, he was the obvious choice (at this time, PAEC folks were working overtime to streamline the design of the weapons and miniturization of warhead type issues). When the NK design was found to be lacking, then the indiginous effort was started and instead of KRL, the responsibility was given to the other outfits like PAEC etc.


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## Skeptic786

blain2 said:


> umm yeah right we would threaten him with a tour of Gitmo....come now....Pakistani information to the US has been that AQK was involved in proliferation to Iran and Libya and others may have bought from the network that he had built. Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK.
> 
> The nuclear issue is simply as such that after the nuclear weaponization was achieved, KRL was turned into a research institute to work on the delivery capability. This is the reason that initially some of the missiles were produced by KRL (included stuff like Hatf and then the Anza Manpads etc.). So KRL personnel were also clued up with the BM program.
> 
> AQK was not the person "entirely" responsible for the delivery or even the negotiations over the BM ToT. There were many others involved from the Pakistani government standpoint, however as the person representing KRL which had been directed to focus on delivery vehicles for the nuclear weapons, he was the obvious choice (at this time, PAEC folks were working overtime to streamline the design of the weapons and miniturization of warhead type issues). When the NK design was found to be lacking, then the indiginous effort was started and instead of KRL, the responsibility was given to the other outfits like PAEC etc.






There is considerable gap in your knowledge vis-a-vis Pakistan aid to NK uranium enrichment route to the bomb. Your categorical statement that *"Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK"* is proof of that gap in knowledge. No less than the person of Musharaf himself confirmed to the world media..including japanese and Americans in Sept 2005
that Pakistan had provided North Korea some two dozen P-2 centrifuges for uranium enrichment ( not to mention NK scientists training at KRL in centrifuge technology which he mentioned in his tour interviews in america and i think also in his book ). Furthermore when Dr A Q Khan was being grilled....parts of 12 page confessional statement was leaked to the press and it too confirmed what had been a speculation to that date that Pakistan...bartered nukes for missiles ( to use american phrase ). Also you seem to be completely in the oblivion as to Colin Powell phone call to musharaf to immediately halt any further help to North Korea in its persuit of nukes...since American satallites picked up pakistan's c130 in 2002 ( 1 year after Dr Qadeer was sacked by musharaf ) delivering and pickiing up stuff....Colin Powell made this call after this evidance brought to him....Musharaf promised to break off all these clandistine links with NK.

As for whether Dr Khan was threatened with death or tour of Gitmo is all matter of shame for Musharaf and record for the rest of us. But i am sure you have read Dina Khan rebuke of musharaf (broadcast by BBC ) and she mentions Dr Qadeer letter ( which musharaf mentioned in his book ) which he left with his wife to be released in the event of him being killed or made to dissappear....ok if he was not threatened why would a national hero...in his own homeland have to resort to this???? common sense is in order. 

As far as your jibe at KRL ( Qadeer ) and in the guise of NK design being found lacking...the truth is quite different.....Ghuari system was successfully replicated in Pakistan and worked first time of asking. Its design was not lacking in anyway.....if you can bring me a single official source saying it lacked in any way i will believe you. No indeginous program of any sort was started to resolve "Ghauri design lacking" and least of it being handed to PAEC. What PAEC had done was to get another MRBM system i.e. Shaheen series from China...again bartered for centrifuges ( remember Qadeer from KRL and Ashfaq from PAEC were sacked at the same time and in the same order of Musharaf in 2001 )..Shaheen missile did have teething problem and its first test was failure...which in reality was carried out 2 weeks before the Ghauri missile test...but because it had failed ( missile failed to take off ) it was not published. 2 weeks later Ghauri was tested and it was a successful test which was to considerable chagrin of people at PAEC and NDC. 11 months after Ghuari was tested Shaheen's problem was sorted and it too produced a successful test....but Qadeer and his people at KRL had stolen the march on PAEC/NDC.....hence the hate mongers of Dr Qadeer ( In PAEC/NDC ) had all the more reason to hate him and spreak rumors to defame him.

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## IBRIS

*Indian Air Force makes available Su-30MKI for flight trails of Astra BVRAAM*







07:58 GMT, November 20, 2009 8ak | With the Indian Air Force (IAF) conducting a captive flight trial of the indigenously developed Astra Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air missile (BVRAAM), the Defence Research & Development Organisations (DRDO) ambition to indigenously develop missiles for India has got yet another boost. According to Akshay Kumar of the India-based online news service 8ak (8ak - Indian Defence News), project director of the Astra programme S. Gollakota has said that the IAF had made available the Russian manufactured Sukhoi Su-30MKI for the trials. It has also been reported that the missile had been subjected to pressures of 7Gs at supersonic speed during the test.

The fully developed MarkII active, radar homing Astra will lock-on and shoot down enemy aircraft about 80 kilometres away. Currently under development is a 44 kilometre range Mark-I version. The Astra, with its design altitude of 15km, has the capability to evade radar. 

The missile initially will be developed to arm the front line Su-30 fighter aircraft apart from the indigenously developed LCA  Tejas.

Over the years India has developed numerous new missiles to bolster its attack and retaliatory capabilities. Earlier this year, the 700 kilometre range nuclear-capable submarine- launched ballistic missile (SLBM) Sagarika was tested. Other indigenously built missiles to be tested by India this year are the 350 kilometre range Prithvi, 3,500 kilometre range Agni 3 and the jointly Russia-India developed supersonic missile BrahMos. 

These missiles are being developed under the aggressive Integrated Guided Missiles Program (IGMP) launched in 1983 by India to develop futuristic missiles technology based on hypersonic rockets to provide a potent weapon to the armed forces in order to enhance national security. 

If one studies the progress of IGMP, no one will have any doubts regarding the advancement India has made over the years in development of missiles technology. The program underlines India's capability to attain self-reliance and present a deterrent from a hostile attack. However, Pakistan claims that India is lagging behind them in missile technology. 
defence.professionals | defpro.com

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## Tomahawk

Thread already exists in the forum.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/1460-astra-missile-india-pakistans-reply.html

Mods please merge.


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## MrIndianSikh

Astra is claimed by the DRDO to be better than several of its counter parts like the AMRAAM and R-77


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## AUz

MrIndianSikh said:


> Astra is claimed by the DRDO to be better than several of its counter parts like the AMRAAM and R-77


 
Care to explain please? AMRAAM is whole fcuking series..Which missile are you talking about? *AIM-120C*??

Well,it would be interesting to see the comparison of *Astra *and* SD-10B* . . .


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## MrIndianSikh

thats what VK Saraswat claimed in tech focus he was not specific he mentioned R-77 Amraam and "a few other western air to air missiles" i think Astra is slightly inferior to the Aim-120C in terms of ECCM but who knows the only way to find out is in air combat


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## The Deterrent

Skeptic786 said:


> There is considerable gap in your knowledge vis-a-vis Pakistan aid to NK uranium enrichment route to the bomb. Your categorical statement that *"Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK"* is proof of that gap in knowledge. No less than the person of Musharaf himself confirmed to the world media..including japanese and Americans in Sept 2005
> that Pakistan had provided North Korea some two dozen P-2 centrifuges for uranium enrichment ( not to mention NK scientists training at KRL in centrifuge technology which he mentioned in his tour interviews in america and i think also in his book ). Furthermore when Dr A Q Khan was being grilled....parts of 12 page confessional statement was leaked to the press and it too confirmed what had been a speculation to that date that Pakistan...bartered nukes for missiles ( to use american phrase ). Also you seem to be completely in the oblivion as to Colin Powell phone call to musharaf to immediately halt any further help to North Korea in its persuit of nukes...since American satallites picked up pakistan's c130 in 2002 ( 1 year after Dr Qadeer was sacked by musharaf ) delivering and pickiing up stuff....Colin Powell made this call after this evidance brought to him....Musharaf promised to break off all these clandistine links with NK.
> 
> As for whether Dr Khan was threatened with death or tour of Gitmo is all matter of shame for Musharaf and record for the rest of us. But i am sure you have read Dina Khan rebuke of musharaf (broadcast by BBC ) and she mentions Dr Qadeer letter ( which musharaf mentioned in his book ) which he left with his wife to be released in the event of him being killed or made to dissappear....ok if he was not threatened why would a national hero...in his own homeland have to resort to this???? common sense is in order.
> 
> As far as your jibe at KRL ( Qadeer ) and in the guise of NK design being found lacking...the truth is quite different.....Ghuari system was successfully replicated in Pakistan and worked first time of asking. Its design was not lacking in anyway.....if you can bring me a single official source saying it lacked in any way i will believe you. No indeginous program of any sort was started to resolve "Ghauri design lacking" and least of it being handed to PAEC. What PAEC had done was to get another MRBM system i.e. Shaheen series from China...again bartered for centrifuges ( remember Qadeer from KRL and Ashfaq from PAEC were sacked at the same time and in the same order of Musharaf in 2001 )..Shaheen missile did have teething problem and its first test was failure...which in reality was carried out 2 weeks before the Ghauri missile test...but because it had failed ( missile failed to take off ) it was not published. 2 weeks later Ghauri was tested and it was a successful test which was to considerable chagrin of people at PAEC and NDC. 11 months after Ghuari was tested Shaheen's problem was sorted and it too produced a successful test....but Qadeer and his people at KRL had stolen the march on PAEC/NDC.....hence the hate mongers of Dr Qadeer ( In PAEC/NDC ) had all the more reason to hate him and spreak rumors to defame him.


 
You obviously have a lot of knowledge...bit please don't undermine the capabilities of NDC...they have produced the most effective and complex systems present in Pakistan's inventory...

AQ Khan and KRL have hijacked the applause that NESCOM deserved...


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## Black Widow

The entire thread is spoiled by Hatemongers... What is the use of bringing Arjuna and Pakistani Nuke in this thread????


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## sab

cant believe ppl are digging a not-so-important thread which was started in November 2006.......

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## khurasaan1

AhaseebA said:


> You obviously have a lot of knowledge...bit please don't undermine the capabilities of NDC...they have produced the most effective and complex systems present in Pakistan's inventory...
> 
> AQ Khan and KRL have hijacked the applause that NESCOM deserved...


 
Sincere pplz dont need applause from audiences....they wrk selflessly and without letting otherz to know about their achievements....


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## ice_man

Bull said:


> Your missiles are stolen copies*,your nukes are suppise to be chineese origin.*But what does that change


 
wait a second wasn't A.Q. KHAN supposedly the man that stole formulas from netherlands??? if so where does china come into the equation? please i request all indians to atleast stick to one claim of theirs!


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## Tshering22

Didn't you guys just buy some 100+ MAA-1 Piranhas from Brazilians? I thought that should be enough for your existential threats, especially since you already have a guaranteed supplier in the form of big brother China.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

T derters,SD-10B,latest AMRAAM,(unknown number) probably 500 or more..MAA-1,MAA-1B Piranha(letter of intent signed),MAR-1 there are also some Indigenous weapons(not revealed yet-) as per an insider.


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## ice_man

Tshering22 said:


> Didn't you guys just buy some 100+ MAA-1 Piranhas from Brazilians? I thought that should be enough for your existential threats, especially since you already have a guaranteed supplier in the form of big brother China.


 
THAT IS a SEAD weapon not an Air to Air BVR! please understand the difference! but for your knowledge we are buying 500 + AMRAAMs from unkle america (i am giving you this info just to spice it for you indians so you can go back and report to your web generals and cry about how pakistan got everything for free )

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## Executioner

Thanks we don't want free drone attack in our soil.


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## ramu

MOO said:


> I doubt that the Indian Astra missile would be better than the SD-10. China after all with their proven track record did develop the SD-10. The fact that anything that India tries to build on their own, it always comes out in faults. Nothing just seems to ever work for them, cough* LCA and Arjun anybody?


 
Why don't you put your country flags for a change. This is a thread about Astra and instead of writing anything meaningful I see you throwing flame baits. Get over the Indian phobia and discuss objectively.


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## ashdoc

pakistan doesn't have to reply to astra missile immediately......

india's missiles have a record of having time over-runs during development .


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan's reply 

"Don't call us - we will call you"


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## Jungibaaz

ashdoc said:


> pakistan doesn't have to reply to astra missile immediately......


Yes we do.... SD-10B, T Darter, AIM-120 AMRAAM

What else do we need?

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