# Pakistan and Israel



## Rameez Usmani

Lets discuss the capabilities of Pakistani forces in comparison with Israeli forces.

Some sources told me that Pakistan has a missile which can directly hit Israel. Is it right ?....

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## rajeev

The one thing I can't understand why Pakistanis use emotions when they deal with other countries. It is not a personal relationship, it is not your friend, your neighbor or your relative - it just another country.

Pakistan should seek to be friendly with Israel as it can offer good military hardware at far cheaper prices than US/West. And besides what is the use of having enmity with Israel? It is not like you are going to attack Israel or Israel going to attack Pakistan!

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## courageneverdies

Rameez, why not we discuss about you and welcome you.

Traditionally, all members have to introduce themselves. 

Members Introduction - Pakistan Defence Forum

See you there.

KIT Over

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## EjazR

There is a pretty interesting thread already on Israeli Pakistan relations
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...s/27309-should-pakistan-recognize-israel.html


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## Conqueror

rajeev said:


> The one thing I can't understand why Pakistanis use emotions when they deal with other countries. It is not a personal relationship, it is not your friend, your neighbor or your relative - it just another country.
> 
> Pakistan should seek to be friendly with Israel as it can offer good military hardware at far cheaper prices than US/West. And besides what is the use of having enmity with Israel? It is not like you are going to attack Israel or Israel going to attack Pakistan!



Quraan - Aal-e-Imran, verse No. 148-149.
 &#1605;&#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;! &#1575;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1575;&#1601;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746; &#1578;&#1608; &#1608;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1657;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1572;&#1722; &#1662;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585; (&#1605;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585 &#1583;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1576;&#1681;&#1746; &#1582;&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1681; &#1580;&#1575;&#1572; &#1711;&#1746; (&#65279;&#1777;&#1780;&#1785;&#65279 (&#1740;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722 &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578;&#1585; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; 

No my friend, we are better off without making friendship with Israel and expecting any assistance in our defense from them. God has stated in the book and there is no one wiser than God.

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## PWFI

it's better to suicide , instead of there friends !

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## RameeX Xaved

friendship with israel?  you mean friendship with zionists who are the killers of millions of muslims in palestine, iraq afghanistan and pakistan?  you mean friendship with those bloody zionists who have taken over the world and are feeding all their allies to denueclearise Pakistan and snatch its Islamic identity?  you mean friendship with that country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves. we should work with india in achieving our goals" 
no mate, we are far far far better off without them

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## RameeX Xaved

Aamir Khan is a Pakistani Nijad Boxer now living in Uk vs Israeli Jew Boxer Dmitriy Salita match and see what happens

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## saurav

wow ...... great reply from a senor member...kudos....

feel free to disagree

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## Ababeel

What is the Israeli thinking about Pakistan, just mentioned by Black Blood in another thread "Biggest threat to Pakistan" and people will understand the reality:

Part 1:

The words of David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967, leave nothing to imagination:

"The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.

This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps
against Pakistan. Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.

Part 2:

Israeli air force Tried to Attack Pakistan's nuclear facilities jointly with India , On july 07 1982 when IAF attacked Osiraq Nuclear facility and destroyed it Pakistan's then leader Gen Zia ul Haq issued a special contingency plan on july 10 1982 in order to repel such an attack on Kahota labs .

Through covert Channels Israel was sent a " Warning " if they Attacked kahuta Pakistan will destroy " Dimona" israel's nuclear facility in Negev Desert !

On may 13 1998 After indian nuclear tests a joint Indo israel attack on kahuta was highly anticipated.
Pakistan tested its devices on 28th of the following month while Pakistan Air force remained on a " Red alert " to protect kahuta .

in the same month Pakistan's ambassador to UNO Mr: Ahmad kamal told CNN that Pakistan has " Intelligence reports" confirming a Joint Indo isreal strike on Kahuta.

Here are his words:

" we are involved in this threat and making sure that it does not arise , but if it does then World must know that Pakistan is " Ready" that it will "react and the reaction would be Massive and decisive "
and it would lead us into a situation which will abode the peace not only in this region but "Beyond"

Ahmad kamal 


PAF remained on a consistent Silent alert !

A Pakistani defense analyst " Hassan aksari Rizvi " said that 2 intelligence reports were received 1st a sighting of an " Unidentified F-16" on may 27 ( india does not have F-16's) 
in Pakistan's Airspace which suggested the presence of an Israeli F-16 aircraft in the area!

2nd intelligence report suggested " unusual movement of Fighter jets just across to Pakistani border hinting a strike on Kahuta just like on Iraqi facilities "

So what we have learned so far? " There was an Israeli F-16 in Pakistan's airspace detected on 27th may 1998 a day before Pakistan's nuclear tests."


But the Mission was Aborted !!!
why?? good question.

1: Pakistan's strong Air force ( All of the PAF F-16's got air borne and flew over sensitive installations) / Air defense / Deployment of Ghauri Missiles on the Same day!

2: India was sent a " Message " to abort that mission either it would have a lot to Lose inc its Nuclear facilities too!

3: Fear of The Red Dragon " India got a message from Chinese too / a strong one!"

4: Indian high Command got scared , they had to abort the mission and they Refused Israeli Pilots ( there were more Vipers on Srinagar airbase , i will talk about it later ) to refuel Indian soil after an attack was made .

5: Israel's fear of a Bloody response of the " Muslim world "

On the same date.
some Israeli F-16's were detected by a Spy satellite ( china-pak Intel sharing agreement ) Parked on Srinagar airbase in Occupied Kashmir . To India a message was sent " The presence of IAF vipers means an Attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities , But India must know that we are " Watching" and even Before these Vipers will fly to Attack Us , we will destroy Mumbai & New deli to smoke and ashes "

As a consequence the Mission was aborted .!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Part 3:

Israel in Kargil war!!

read this by an Indian author .
IntelliBriefs: How Israel helped India win the Kargil War

Israeli ambassador to India mentioned in His Interview how Israeli Commandos helped Indian forces and how Israel helped India in Fighting the War.!
'Israel helped India during Kargil'

Israel helped India turn around Kargil war?


In a startling revelation, the Israeli Ambassador in New Delhi, Mark Sofer, has said that his country had assisted India in 'turning around' the situation during the 1999 Kargil war with Pakistan. 

In an interview with a weekly, the envoy disclosed how defence ties between the two countries got a boost after Kargil when Israel came to India's rescue at a critical time, helping turn around the situation on the ground. 

'I think we proved to the Indian government that you can rely on us, that we have the wherewithal. A friend in need is a friend indeed,' he said.

He also disclosed that Indo-Israeli defence ties would go beyond mere selling-buying of arms. 

'We do have a defence relationship with India, which is no secret. What is secret is what the defence relationship is? And with all due respect, the secret part will remain secret,' he said in the interview to Outlook weekly magazine.

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## Stealth

Isreal tried to massive strike over KAHUTA
Isreal funding Terrorist from Afghanistan 
Isreal doing massive damage to Pakistan how (ZIONIST ACTIVE LOBBY IN US GOVT)

Are you guyz idiot ????

Isreal say doosti karkay apnay paoon pe eek aur kulhari maarni hey ???

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## Super Falcon

u should thank GOD there was not an indian boxer other wise india have to pay for his hospital charges

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## beckham

Ababeel said:


> Part 3:
> 
> Israel in Kargil war!!
> 
> *read this by an Indian author .
> IntelliBriefs:* How Israel helped India win the Kargil War
> 
> Israeli ambassador to India mentioned in His Interview how Israeli Commandos helped Indian forces and how Israel helped India in Fighting the War.!
> 'Israel helped India during Kargil'
> 
> Israel helped India turn around Kargil war?
> 
> 
> In a startling revelation, the Israeli Ambassador in New Delhi, Mark Sofer, has said that his country had assisted India in 'turning around' the situation during the 1999 Kargil war with Pakistan.
> 
> In an interview with a weekly, the envoy disclosed how defence ties between the two countries got a boost after Kargil when Israel came to India's rescue at a critical time, helping turn around the situation on the ground.
> 
> 'I think we proved to the Indian government that you can rely on us, that we have the wherewithal. A friend in need is a friend indeed,' he said.
> 
> He also disclosed that Indo-Israeli defence ties would go beyond mere selling-buying of arms.
> 
> 'We do have a defence relationship with India, which is no secret. What is secret is what the defence relationship is? And with all due respect, the secret part will remain secret,' he said in the interview to Outlook weekly magazine.




IntelliBriefs ?? Isn't that a blog ? 



Ababeel said:


> PAF remained on a consistent Silent alert !
> 
> A Pakistani defense analyst " Hassan aksari Rizvi " said that 2 intelligence reports were received 1st a sighting of an " Unidentified F-16" on may 27 ( india does not have F-16's)
> in Pakistan's Airspace which suggested the presence of an Israeli F-16 aircraft in the area!
> 
> 2nd intelligence report suggested " unusual movement of Fighter jets just across to Pakistani border hinting a strike on Kahuta just like on Iraqi facilities "
> 
> So what we have learned so far? " There was an Israeli F-16 in Pakistan's airspace detected on 27th may 1998 a day before Pakistan's nuclear tests."
> 
> 
> But the Mission was Aborted !!!
> why?? good question.
> 
> 1: Pakistan's strong Air force ( All of the PAF F-16's got air borne and flew over sensitive installations) / Air defense / Deployment of Ghauri Missiles on the Same day!
> 
> 2: India was sent a " Message " to abort that mission either it would have a lot to Lose inc its Nuclear facilities too!
> 
> 3: Fear of The Red Dragon " India got a message from Chinese too / a strong one!"
> 
> 4: Indian high Command got scared , they had to abort the mission and they Refused Israeli Pilots ( there were more Vipers on Srinagar airbase , i will talk about it later ) to refuel Indian soil after an attack was made .
> 
> 5: Israel's fear of a Bloody response of the " Muslim world "
> 
> On the same date.
> *some Israeli F-16's were detected by a Spy satellite ( china-pak Intel sharing agreement ) Parked on Srinagar airbase in Occupied Kashmir . To India a message was sent " The presence of IAF vipers means an Attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities , But India must know that we are " Watching" and even Before these Vipers will fly to Attack Us , we will destroy Mumbai & New deli to smoke and ashes "*
> 
> As a consequence the Mission was aborted .!!!!!!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry, but the marked part is pure BS ! Care to provide a source ?? Sounds more like a feel good article.The author don't even know to spell New Delhi.Please don't post such baseless articles.

thanks

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## beckham

Super Falcon said:


> u should thank GOD there was not an indian boxer other wise india have to pay for his hospital charges





I felt the other way around, 










**Akhil Kumar stuns the world champion* 

**India's Vijender wins boxing bronze at Olympic Games*

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## pak-yes

Indians should be happy Israel is not our friend otherwise we would had been getting top of the line ISRAELI weapons forcing Indians to spend more on their defense to neutralize Pakistani advantage

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## Bushy

pak-yes said:


> Indians should be happy Israel is not our friend otherwise we would had been getting top of the line ISRAELI weapons forcing Indians to spend more on their defense to neutralize Pakistani advantage



That is correct, such a scenario would have forced India to spend a little more, something that India's economy can always afford.

But alas! The reality is the other way round... an already cash-strapped Pakistan's economy is suffering badly to keep the defence budget high and keep India at bay.

As far as Israel is concerned, I wonder why would anyone think it may directly attack Pakistan. Such a situation would make Pakistan use its nukes on Israel, and all dreams of that tiny nation might evaporate. Israel will never use a platform where Pakistan has any advantage - ex: size. It would rather use brains, than brawns, to defeat Pakistan in its own way.


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## abbasniazi

Here is my say...

Israel=Enemy state...Now and forever.

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## BlackenTheSky

i dont think we will ever have a war with israel,so no need to compare

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## fhassan

Israel is an enemy to every Muslim, and it is absolutely haraam for Muslims to befriend such a nation. This is very clear.

Qur'an has strictly forbidden friendship with nations that fight against and drive Muslims out of their homelands:

*As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:8)

God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! (Quran 60:9)*

However, we can be friends with Jews and Christians who do not oppress Muslims. 

For further analysis, please read:

Quran: "...take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends..." - Analysis

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## pak-yes

> That is correct, such a scenario would have forced India to spend a little more, something that India's economy can always afford.



you are right you can always afford to spend more on defense at the expense of poor Indians.

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## Kompromat

*If an Independent Palestinian Flag flies today in Middle east , we will accept the state of Israel the next moment , if not then ... never did never would! *

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## Bushy

pak-yes said:


> you are right you can always afford to spend more on defense at the expense of poor Indians.



When the Americans make a B-2, worth billions, they do not wonder whether that money could be spent in social security for millions of jobless. It is about the defense of a nation.

The uplift of Indian poor is not hindered by lack of money, but rather by the mismanagement of the money allocated. 

The money spent in the defence budget rightly belongs there, and India can afford to pump in way more without touching the money meant for the poor. Example: $25 billion spent by the government on the poor in forgoing the loans taken by the farmers - 1998. No wonder no Indian has ever felt the need to eat grass at the cost of building a nuclear program.

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## pak-yes

> It is about the defense of a nation.



oh come on you are the most powerful nation here in south asia and perhaps even south east asia only second to china.who would attack you?.at least china wouldn't they are mostly geared on economic stuff and you have huge trade with them.so your spending spree is pointless



> The uplift of Indian poor is not hindered by lack of money, but rather by the mismanagement of the money allocated.



well although it is also one of the reasons.but still you you allocate way more on defense than is required and because of you we also remain poor.



> No wonder no Indian has ever felt the need to eat grass at the cost of building a nuclear program.



yup because if we had not ate grass our future generations would had nothing to eat at all.


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## ptldM3

Conqueror said:


> Quraan - Aal-e-Imran, verse No. 148-149.
> &#1605;&#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;! &#1575;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1575;&#1601;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746; &#1578;&#1608; &#1608;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1657;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1572;&#1722; &#1662;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585; (&#1605;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585 &#1583;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1576;&#1681;&#1746; &#1582;&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1681; &#1580;&#1575;&#1572; &#1711;&#1746; (&#65279;&#1777;&#1780;&#1785;&#65279 (&#1740;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722 &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578;&#1585; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746;
> 
> No my friend, we are better off without making friendship with Israel and expecting any assistance in our defense from them. God has stated in the book and there is no one wiser than God.




Translation please?



abbasniazi said:


> Here is my say...
> 
> Israel=Enemy state...Now and forever.



That kind of attitude wont get you anywear. The Palistinians are Muslims, and naturally other Muslims will support them, however, if the roles were reversed all Muslims would support Israel and denounce Palistine. I can understand you feel simpathy for the Palistinians, however, the Israelis are victoms too...

Warning graphic image: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/blogs/20080323092011.jpg



Anyways back to the original poster, why are you so concerned with attacking Israel. During the Six Day War Israel was simultaneously attacked by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Morever, six other countryies provided weapons, men, and money, so in total it was Israel vs 9 countries, and Israel still won. Even if some how, with the grace of god, Israel is attacked and it loses, quess who's coming  What i'm trying to say is why even think about attacking Israel, nothing good can come of it.

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## r3alist

pakistans relationship with israel is interesting to me.

i try to weight up the pro's and con's of every relationship and personally i would not mind somewhat cordial relations with israel, it will have mutual benefits however i cannot get it out of my head that it was israel that tried to bomb pakistans nuclear facilities and its israeli generals who visited kashmir with indian generals, therefore my mind and my heart both tell me that israel are a threat to pakistan, they have to be judged on their actions and these have been to take steps to harm pakistan.


also, israel are very very pro india, it would be hard to have any meaningful relationship with them, but again, cordial relations with israel could be beneficial but i cant see any framework for it and they clearly dont want it so its a non starter.


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## alirulesall123

Let the Arabs solve their own problems. The sons of Pakistan will not be used as weapons in the Israel-Palestine conflict. The day I see Arab countries support Pakistan over India, is the day I will consider sacrificing a drop of Pakistani blood for the Arab cause.

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## s6demon

Bushy said:


> The uplift of Indian poor is not hindered by lack of money, but rather by the mismanagement of the money allocated.
> 
> The money spent in the defence budget rightly belongs there, and *India can afford to pump in way more without touching the money meant for the poor.*
> 
> *No wonder no Indian has ever felt the need to eat grass at the cost of building a nuclear program*.




hahahahahaha, big talk for one of the poorest nation in the world, one of the highest recipiant of aid in the entire world, with more poverty than the entire continent of Africa, with more Aids ridden people than anywhere else in the world.

where, people such as you, cannot wait to get the hell out. (gireban main jhank kay dekho pehlay)


you are right about one thing though. No indian was forced to eat grass at the cost of their nuclear program.

You are having to eat rats.



> India's poor urged to 'eat rats'



BBC NEWS | South Asia | India's poor urged to 'eat rats'


when you feel you can live in your own country then ill hear your testimonial of how "wealthy" or flush your country is with money. untill then, you are not fooling anybody.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think Israel and Pakistan have no BEEF against each other the sooner Israel and Pakistan will shake hands the better hopefully something positive can happen 

If they would just give Palestinians some place to call home I am sure we can be best of buddies

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## PakSher

Arabs are getting closer to the Indians and we need to have relations with Israel.

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## RameeX Xaved

PakSher said:


> Arabs are getting closer to the Indians and we need to have relations with Israel.



with due respect, i feel like banging my head to the wall after reading such comments


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## lionheartsalahudin

In my opinion Israel is a definite enemy ,and is responsible for the emergence of extremist Islamic movements due to its hegemonic and trigger happy approach ,Jerusalem is a city worth fighting for and laying life for to regain Jerusalem and asqa mosque would be a great honour for any muslim.
Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were not religiously motivated their motivation was arab nationalism,nationalism might work when u have technological advantage over enemy viceversa it is suicide men no matter how patriotic they might be, have their limits when it comes to nationalistic approach towards war of aggression,so after defeat in few battles they loose their will to fight ,kill and sacrificeTheir lives for a victory and glory that they might not see. In a defensive war patriotism is a plus point in war of aggression it has limits rest u can fill it in.
Coming down to Pakistan and why it is considered a threat to Israel by Zionists,bcuz from the beginning Pakistan is a an ideological state formed on the basis of religion,not race,not region,not financial interests,so basically every Pakistani muslim feels obliged and connected to the ummah(the global brotherhood of islam),moreover the founder of Pakistan in one of his speech said Pakistan is the fort of islam further incorporating into Pakistani muslims that u have too look after the whole ummah!
IMO without islam there would,nt be any urge for a muslim homeland in subcontinent and without its derive no homeland would have been achieved ,all those liberals who think they can turn Pakistan into secular state will have to face 90percent of pakistans population ,back to the topic as there is a huge bonding of Pakistanis with the ummah and its affairs ,any one who hurts the ummah hurts Pakistanis anyone who is friend of the ummah is the friend of pakistanis and I stress Pakistanis not the government,I challenge anyone politican to come out in the open and say to pakistanis lets befriend Israel,and u will see what will happen to him ,and then try the other way around that we are going to attack Israel so start joining the army and then see the turn out,we pakistanis at the core are emotional people,so u liberals just keep ur dumb advice to urself or say it out abroad dont even dare to say that in pak.
My conclusion why arabs lost wars is becauz of their nationalist motivation,why Pakistani muslims will win the war is religious motivation ,we will be ready to run millions of volunteers even poorly armed voluntarily into Jerusalem (think Stalingrad 2nd ww but attacking not defending) bcuz they will know if they free Jerusalem into muslim hands for the sake of ALLAH they will have eternal rewards even if they sacrifice themselves doing it,Death to Israel and all those pakistanis who think they can befriend israel they are enemies within go live in a secular country,and inshallah if religion is the motivation then u will see swarms of muslims from every country joining us even if not their gvts,LONG LIVE PAKISTAN death to Israeli puppets TTP!&other sponsors.

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## Super Falcon

indian boxers are joke just one win and they think they r best but truely they r nuts amir khan out of 21 fights won 20 is any indian have this type pf record if he is indian than he must be muslim as great mohammad ali was


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Most ppl don't realize that the Arabs , the Shieks of Arabia who helped Britain in WW1 had an agreement to get arabian desert lands in return for supporting them against Ottoman Empires. 

In essesnce they sorta were traitors to Empire which was once called Ottoman Empire. 

Once British won, they have the sheiks (mercenaries) lands 
(Saudia/Kuwait/ Bahrain/Oman/UAE/Qater etc), and they also bought
some land legally (as far as I know for Jewish people I think to settled them there - 

The Arabs , then attacked Israel and said get out , Israelis at that time had better weapons they sorta won anyways , and instead took more land - so if Arabs had actually abided by their contract and let the jewish ppl live there - there would be no war

Then they had second war, with Israel and we all know how well that went - 6 days whole war was over - and more land was lost 

Then they simply built walls around Palestine remaining land, so they don'thave to see any suffering - and just look away.. like Egypt does not - they just close border and live in their own countries. 

So , here we are Pakistan , miles away from Israel , we would be making great trade with Israel if it was not for Palestine , which is purely an Arabic , issue 

How often do Arabs support Pakistan ?? Other then ocassional Oil or money help to Pakistan - 

Unless Arabs come to Pakistan and give us 100 billion or something to get weapons and fighters from us , and may be we can open a base in Saudia or other countries perhaps we can help out but other then that there is not much we can do ...

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## alirulesall123

lionheartsalahudin said:


> In my opinion Israel is a definite enemy ,and is responsible for the emergence of extremist Islamic movements due to its hegemonic and trigger happy approach ,Jerusalem is a city worth fighting for and laying life for to regain Jerusalem and asqa mosque would be a great honour for any muslim.
> Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were not religiously motivated their motivation was arab nationalism,nationalism might work when u have technological advantage over enemy viceversa it is suicide men no matter how patriotic they might be, have their limits when it comes to nationalistic approach towards war of aggression,so after defeat in few battles they loose their will to fight ,kill and sacrificeTheir lives for a victory and glory that they might not see. In a defensive war patriotism is a plus point in war of aggression it has limits rest u can fill it in.
> Coming down to Pakistan and why it is considered a threat to Israel by Zionists,bcuz from the beginning Pakistan is a an ideological state formed on the basis of religion,not race,not region,not financial interests,so basically every Pakistani muslim feels obliged and connected to the ummah(the global brotherhood of islam),moreover the founder of Pakistan in one of his speech said Pakistan is the fort of islam further incorporating into Pakistani muslims that u have too look after the whole ummah!
> IMO without islam there would,nt be any urge for a muslim homeland in subcontinent and without its derive no homeland would have been achieved ,all those liberals who think they can turn Pakistan into secular state will have to face 90percent of pakistans population ,back to the topic as there is a huge bonding of Pakistanis with the ummah and its affairs ,any one who hurts the ummah hurts Pakistanis anyone who is friend of the ummah is the friend of pakistanis and I stress Pakistanis not the government,I challenge anyone politican to come out in the open and say to pakistanis lets befriend Israel,and u will see what will happen to him ,and then try the other way around that we are going to attack Israel so start joining the army and then see the turn out,we pakistanis at the core are emotional people,so u liberals just keep ur dumb advice to urself or say it out abroad dont even dare to say that in pak.
> My conclusion why arabs lost wars is becauz of their nationalist motivation,why Pakistani muslims will win the war is religious motivation ,we will be ready to run millions of volunteers even poorly armed voluntarily into Jerusalem (think Stalingrad 2nd ww but attacking not defending) bcuz they will know if they free Jerusalem into muslim hands for the sake of ALLAH they will have eternal rewards even if they sacrifice themselves doing it,Death to Israel and all those pakistanis who think they can befriend israel they are enemies within go live in a secular country,and inshallah if religion is the motivation then u will see swarms of muslims from every country joining us even if not their gvts,LONG LIVE PAKISTAN death to Israeli puppets TTP!&other sponsors.



Ramblings of a Jihadist....

Seriously though, Why is palestine considered a "muslim cause" and Kashmir is not? Any of your islamist hypocrites wanna point that out for me?


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## ptldM3

lionheartsalahudin said:


> Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were *not religiously motivated *
> 
> .:



When people go to war they turn to god even if they arn't religious, and all the religious motivation in the world wouldn't help the arbs beat the Israelis. The fact is the Israeli pilots were the best in the world, the arab pilots, on the other hand, were very poorly trained. Consiquently, the Israeli Air Force massacred the Arabs both in the air and on the ground. Likewise, the Israeli gernerals were just superior. For instace, they attacked the Egyptian airfields when they knew most of the Egyptian generals were either home or headed home. As a result, they knocked out most of the Arab aircraft on the ground. Then the Israeli generals attacked the Arabs with the sun was facing towards them, making it difficult to see the Israeli army. Israeli tanks were able to get better possitions behind sand duns, making it very difficult to knock out the Israeli tanks, and lastly the Israeli groud crews were working around the clock. They managed to refuel, reload, and perform maintanance at an unbelievible rate. As a result, the Israeli Air Force was able to pound Arab possitions as well as engage Arab aircraft, which in turn kept Israeli ground forces safe.

In short, the Arabs would have been massacred either way.

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## alirulesall123

Don't bother reasoning with these pseudo-arab idiots, russian dude. This guys don't understand basic logic as long as they lick Arab ***.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

alirulesall123 said:


> Ramblings of a Jihadist....
> 
> Seriously though, Why is palestine considered a "muslim cause" and Kashmir is not? Any of your islamist hypocrites wanna point that out for me?



Well both problem are land disputes - 

1947 UN resolution , which has agreement from both India and Pakistan which states that there will be elections in Kashmire to determine the future of state, this is a stright forward resolution

That UN comes in helds open election and we are done

But if India is persistent to keep its armies there and enforce , its presense that does not helps, its just like Israel when it held Syrian hills but eventually they left the golan heights was it ?? 

So India should do so for peace

Now Palestine is unique since , christianity , Jewish people and Muslims all have their holy lands present there - at least Hindus don't have to worry about that place

Solution is VERY simlpe, *UN runs Jeruselem *, and prayer times are allocated in the place for all people equally and UN police runs the facility End of story 

Remove the check point remove the bombs remove the guns and remove suffering - 
this is what humanity demands and this should be way towards peace in that place

We as human can solve the issues but the problem is with people un willing to sit down , and solve the matter - 

I do think that Jewish people have some legal case to be living in Israel , infact under Muslim rule (when muslim civilization was prominent) , Jewish people were integral part of Islamic Empire and they held high dignitary roles and there were people of state 
and courts , people who say that Jewish people and Muslims don't get along have never research history 

Muslims and Jewish People were quite close thru out the time when Ottoman empires and others reigned the world

I suggest people go and research , I think even in Salahdin time Jewish people were present in holy lands , so were christians and Muslims and they have always been relatively close, history of 800-1200 years

Differences started to emerg in ww1 , when Ottoman sided with germany , and of course in WW2 , when Jewish people faced mass extinctions as result of brutal kills and genonocides. and this created a backlash , a nation was born which only knew how to defend itself with guns and weapons .......

Some time in near future we do need brave leaders on both side to step up and say look , enough of this - let UN run the holy lands, and we will develop borders so that people of both faiths can live peacefully 

Its very simple solution -


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## mughaljee

The Holly Quran words,
They can't be your friends.

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## BlackenTheSky

Not accepting israel will not make Palestine free..become friend with israel and then have dialogues with them.


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## pak-yes

Many Muslim countries have accepted Israel what have they gained.Have they been able to force Israel for peace through dialogue.NO


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## nightcrawler

*******.com - online file sharing and storage - download Israel-Pakistan Relations.zip

Who wants to befriend USA but you are not going anywhere without them!! So plz its the same with Israeil not be an emotional child be clever you partner with Israeil not on friendship accounts but on the principle of *mutual 
dependencies*. Israeil really want Pakistan to help it out for a kind off peace treaty b/w Israeil & Arabs I daresay Israeil will welcome Pakistan if Pakistan helped it to survive peacefully in a danger zone of Arabs & in the same time Palestinian issue may be resolved.
So we get two bonus
1 A stand in international affairs
2 Large defence technology from Israeil

I hope any men wiser will think about it as its in our bestest interest & not the maulana rallies against Israeil which certainly ain't going to do any good

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

mughaljee said:


> The Holly Quran words,
> They can't be your friends.



 The same holy quran also says don't be jugemental between arabi , and non arabic (in whole context it means don't differentiate) or discriminate against ppl , one who is dearest to almighty is one who is the most observant .. 

Don't be judgemental - I never recall any statement in quran that says anything negative on jews or christians , it just says to accept that they have their religion and we have our own simple as that -

If discrimination was allowed, i am sure half of the court cases that Prophet , announced in favor of jews would not have been made, jews were integral part of arabic society and have always been part of arabic region..

Israelis are decendents of Ishaq (Isac) peace be upon him and Muslims from Ismael (Peace be upon him) who were son of Ibrahim , so by you logic , if they are both decendent from Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) technically they are distant cousins 

If you can understand that logic , great else you might want to check some documents

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## fhassan

mughaljee said:


> The Holly Quran words,
> They can't be your friends.



Not quite, what the Qur'an says is very interesting Indeed:

*As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. 

God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers!* 

(Quran 60:8-9)

I can't argue with that; nor could any sane person.

Now, it is up to you to judge whether or not Israel meets the criteria with whom friendship is forbidden. Personally, I think Israel fits the bill quite well.

Islam does not disallow friendship with Jews or Christians just because they happen to be Jews or Christians. To believe this is erroneous, a Muslim man for example can marry a Jewish or Christian lady.

For a more detailed analysis, please read http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...re-al-jazeera-correspondent-4.html#post496601


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## Bushy

When the religious Israelis and Pakistanis covertly joined against a common atheist enemy:


Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv, says a recently published book, Charlie Wilson&#8217;s War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History.

The book reveals that the Pakistan Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation with Israel, although it did not acknowledge any contact with that country publicly. Congressman Charles Wilson &#8212; a pro-Pakistan activist and the central figure to get CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan &#8212; is credited in the 550-page book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman &#8220;whom General Ziaul Haq fancied&#8221;.

The book claims that Wilson asked Zia to deal with the Israelis during his first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made at a grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was later named as Honorary Consul of Pakistan.

The book says that Charlie Wilson informed Zia the Israelis had shown him the &#8220;vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon&#8221;. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled, saying, &#8220;Just don&#8217;t put any Stars of David on the boxes&#8221;.

&#8220;With that encouragement,&#8221; the narrative goes on, &#8220;Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese army&#8217;s Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.

&#8220;It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the US embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his people&#8217;s hatred for both Israel and the United States [but] he encouraged Wilson to continue.&#8221;

The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal &#8220;even without CIA knowledge&#8221;. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilson&#8217;s efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it. Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.

The weapon&#8217;s name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.

It was decided that a new weapon would be introduced into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.

The book has been selling well in the USA but is still not available in Pakistan.

_Source: Daily Times Monitor_

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## niaz

ptldM3 said:


> When people go to war they turn to god even if they arn't religious, and all the religious motivation in the world wouldn't help the arbs beat the Israelis. The fact is the Israeli pilots were the best in the world, the arab pilots, on the other hand, were very poorly trained. Consiquently, the Israeli Air Force massacred the Arabs both in the air and on the ground. Likewise, the Israeli gernerals were just superior. For instace, they attacked the Egyptian airfields when they knew most of the Egyptian generals were either home or headed home. As a result, they knocked out most of the Arab aircraft on the ground. Then the Israeli generals attacked the Arabs with the sun was facing towards them, making it difficult to see the Israeli army. Israeli tanks were able to get better possitions behind sand duns, making it very difficult to knock out the Israeli tanks, and lastly the Israeli groud crews were working around the clock. They managed to refuel, reload, and perform maintanance at an unbelievible rate. As a result, the Israeli Air Force was able to pound Arab possitions as well as engage Arab aircraft, which in turn kept Israeli ground forces safe.
> 
> In short, the Arabs would have been massacred either way.




Having worked for 3 years in Kuwait and now 4 years in UAE. I have come across bright Arabs as well as some total idiots. Dont think that intelligence and competence is a preserve of the Israelis or any specific nation. Given equal education, it is always roughly 80/20 ratio. That is, about 20% are good and 80% from ordinary to lousy. The difference lies in recognition of merit.

The family you belong to makes a lot of difference in the Arab culture; much more so than in Pakistan. To quote a real example, I know of a very competent Arab Engineer who was held back; although a local, he was not considered good enough because his mother was an Iranian. Instead a person of below average competence was made head of the refinery because his father was very influential.

We also come across such kind of thing in Pakistan every day, but it is more prevalent in the Arab countries. Leaders are chosen only based on their family connection can in no way compete with those who have come up due to merit alone. 

Therein lies heart of the problem. You find Pakistanis working for foreign firms and holding high position equal to any one of any other nationality. However, in Pakistan, with a few exceptions, majority of the leaders of the armed forces as well as government are quite ordinary. Niazi of 1971 surrender was the most glaring example. Education Minister in the first Benazir Govt was not even matric pass but he was a Sindhi and from a large landed family. We also saw neptoism at work in cricket when a very young Javed Burki was made captain of Pakistani team due to his father being Lt Gen Burki.

As long as true merit is not given recognition; either due to ethnicity, nepotisn sect or religion, no nation can compete on equal terms at the international level at any thing.

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## MastanKhan

mughaljee said:


> The Holly Quran words,
> They can't be your friends.



Mughaljee---son---sometimes put the effort to write more than two lines. It won't hurt---maybe some enlightened thoughts may prop up. Thankyou.


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## MastanKhan

lionheartsalahudin said:


> In my opinion Israel is a definite enemy ,and is responsible for the emergence of extremist Islamic movements due to its hegemonic and trigger happy approach ,Jerusalem is a city worth fighting for and laying life for to regain Jerusalem and asqa mosque would be a great honour for any muslim.
> Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were not religiously motivated their motivation was arab nationalism,nationalism might work when u have technological advantage over enemy viceversa it is suicide men no matter how patriotic they might be, have their limits when it comes to nationalistic approach towards war of aggression,so after defeat in few battles they loose their will to fight ,kill and sacrificeTheir lives for a victory and glory that they might not see. In a defensive war patriotism is a plus point in war of aggression it has limits rest u can fill it in.
> Coming down to Pakistan and why it is considered a threat to Israel by Zionists,bcuz from the beginning Pakistan is a an ideological state formed on the basis of religion,not race,not region,not financial interests,so basically every Pakistani muslim feels obliged and connected to the ummah(the global brotherhood of islam),moreover the founder of Pakistan in one of his speech said &#8220;Pakistan is the fort of islam&#8221; further incorporating into Pakistani muslims that u have too look after the whole ummah!
> IMO without islam there would,nt be any urge for a muslim homeland in subcontinent and without its derive no homeland would have been achieved ,all those liberals who think they can turn Pakistan into secular state will have to face 90percent of pakistan&#8217;s population ,back to the topic as there is a huge bonding of Pakistanis with the ummah and its affairs ,any one who hurts the ummah hurts Pakistanis anyone who is friend of the ummah is the friend of pakistani&#8217;s and I stress Pakistani&#8217;s not the government,I challenge anyone politican to come out in the open and say to pakistani&#8217;s lets befriend Israel,and u will see what will happen to him ,and then try the other way around that we are going to attack Israel so start joining the army and then see the turn out,we pakistani&#8217;s at the core are emotional people,so u liberals just keep ur dumb advice to urself or say it out abroad don&#8217;t even dare to say that in pak.
> My conclusion why arabs lost wars is becauz of their nationalist motivation,why Pakistani muslims will win the war is religious motivation ,we will be ready to run millions of volunteers even poorly armed voluntarily into Jerusalem (think Stalingrad 2nd ww but attacking not defending) bcuz they will know if they free Jerusalem into muslim hands for the sake of ALLAH they will have eternal rewards even if they sacrifice themselves doing it,Death to Israel and all those pakistanis who think they can befriend israel they are enemies within go live in a secular country,and inshallah if religion is the motivation then u will see swarms of muslims from every country joining us even if not their gvts,LONG LIVE PAKISTAN death to Israeli puppets TTP!&other sponsors.





Hi,

You name yourself Salahuddin---from your article it seems like you have no clue who Salahuddin was or what he stood for---maybe you need to spend sometime and study salahuddin in detail---.

If you want to go to war---you have to prepare yourself for war---you have to have that exceptional drive, the energy and mental toughness to understand the enemy and the enemy's resourcefulness. Then you have to prepare yourself to combat the opposition. 

The arabs never had it in them to fight a war against israel. Possibly there is a GENETIC link missing or it has disappeared somewhere along the lines..

Nationalism and patriotism will only get you to the line in front of the army recruitment office---after that it is not worth anything---it is trainign training and training with the right kind of leadership that will make the difference.


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## Gazzi

Why we do not like Israel

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## mughaljee

MastanKhan said:


> Mughaljee---son---sometimes put the effort to write more than two lines. It won't hurt---maybe some enlightened thoughts may prop up. Thankyou.


Respectable Sir, 
Insha Allah I will do this.
Regards

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## mughaljee

Youtube video link not working . 
Please share new one.


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## manglasiva

mughaljee said:


> Youtube video link not working .
> Please share new one.


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## mughaljee

same result


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## mughaljee

*nightcrawler 
&
AZADPAKISTAN2009
&
fhassan *

Quote:
, 
Who wants to befriend USA but you are not going anywhere without them!! Israeil really want Pakistan to help it out for a kind off peace treaty b/w Israeil & Arabs I daresay Israeil will welcome Pakistan if Pakistan helped it to survive peacefully in a danger zone of Arabs & in the same time Palestinian issue may be resolved. 

*Pakistani People don't need any kind of help from USA ....it is only our corrupt politicians who need $$$..*

Quote:
Not quite, what the Qur'an says is very interesting Indeed:

As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. 

God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! 

(Quran 60:8-9)

I can't argue with that; nor could any sane person.


Israel did not fight against Pakistan thats trure.. but ISRAEL fought against *"Muslims". *and above verse says *" who did not fight against you" means who did not fight against Muslims"...it doesn't matter from which country they belong. *

try to understand the meaning of the verse when Allah said "you" it means "Muslims" not Pakistani if you think Israel did not fight against Pakistan..so it is okay to take them as a friend?..then you are wrong.. 

read the verse again.. 

God only forbids you*[muslims]* to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you*[muslims] *because of [your *[muslims]* faith, and drive you *[muslim]* forth from your*[muslims]* homelands, or aid *[others]* in driving you[muslimss] forth: and as for those [from among you[muslim]] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers! 

Quote:
*8&#1580;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1740;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1580;&#1606;&#1711; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1711;&#1726;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1705;&#1575;&#1604;&#1575; &#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1587;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1576;&#1726;&#1604;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1575; &#1587;&#1604;&#1608;&#1705; &#1705;&#1585;&#1606;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1605;&#1606;&#1593; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1575;&#1748; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1585;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578; &#1585;&#1705;&#1726;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; 

9&#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1575;&#1606; &#1729;&#1740; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1746; &#1587;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578;&#1740; &#1705;&#1585;&#1606;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1605;&#1606;&#1593; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1580;&#1606;&#1729;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1740;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1604;&#1681;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1711;&#1726;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1705;&#1575;&#1604;&#1575; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1606;&#1705;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1705;&#1740;&#1748; &#1578;&#1608; &#1580;&#1608; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711; &#1575;&#1740;&#1587;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578;&#1740; &#1705;&#1585;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1608;&#1729;&#1740; &#1592;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722; *

1-Haven't Israelis fought against Muslims ? 
2- Haven't Israelis driven Muslims out of their homes?

okay now check the list of wars 
Wars of Israel


Quote:
The violent confrontations which appear in this list were recognized as wars by the Defense Minister of Israel:

1948 War of Independence (November 1947 - July 1949), 
(1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
The Sinai War (October 1956) - . 
(Suez Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Six-Day War (June 1967) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War)- fought between Israel (Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and Arab (Arab people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) neighbors Egypt (Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), Jordan (Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and Syria (Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). 
War of Attrition (1968-1970) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Attrition)- a limited war (Limited war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) fought between the Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)military and forces of the Egyptian Republic (Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), 
Yom Kippur War (October 1973) . 
Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First Lebanon War (1982) (1982 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - began in 6 June 1982, when the Israel Defense Forces (Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) invaded southern Lebanon (Southern Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). 
Second Lebanon War (summer 2006) - 
(2006 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) 
^^these are the Israelis sources...and what they did in wars everybody knows...

Read Israel's illegal occupation


Quote:
Israeli settlements 

Quote:
are Israeli civilian communities in the Israeli-occupied territories (lands that were captured from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria by Israel during the 1967 Six-Day War).[1] Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank,[2] East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. The latter two areas are governed under Israeli civil law but are considered to be under military occupation by the international community
(Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
(West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
(East Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
(Golan Heights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
(Military occupation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
(International community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

On 18 November 2009, the United States voiced their dismay at the approved by the Israel's interior ministry of 900 additional housing units at a Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem. A White House spokesman said the move makes it "more difficult" to revive Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. *Settlements on occupied territory are considered illegal under international law! *
(Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Quote:
Now, it is up to you to judge whether or not Israel meets the criteria with whom friendship is forbidden. 

yes they fought with Muslims...


Quote:
It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that All&#226;h forbids you to befriend them And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Z&#226;lim&#251;n (wrong-doers those who disobey All&#226;h){60:9}.. 

Quote:
Islam does not disallow friendship with Jews or Christians just because they happen to be Jews or Christians. 

Only those Jews or Christians who don't support Israel..and they are very less...and most of them don't live in ISRAEL..
these Jews are also against of "the whole state of Israel" 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
pakistan:Insha Allah Next time updated)

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## All-Green

So all Israeli Jews are enemies?
The state maybe but certainly not all the Israelis.

You have to remember that it is not a very simple conflict and if you dig deep into the annals of history you shall see very ugly facts about Arab backbiting and backstabbing which practically derailed the Palestinian cause...the ugly fact is that there is too much disunity in the ranks of the Arabs over this...had they adhered to the U.N. Partition plan they may have been better off...still let us hope they reach a conclusion.
Out of all Arab countries Egypt gave Israel the toughest time but they also realized that Palestinian cause is not being helped in anyway by being hostile towards Israel...

It is a sad fate and i personally hold many in Israeli government and institutes responsible for a lot of atrocities but that does not mean the common Israeli Jews are all our enemies.
Such generalizations are not accurate because it takes a lot from someone to be declared an enemy of the righteous as per the Quran...

The suicide bombings and such extremist acts have only made the situation for the Muslims worse.
When people justify terrorism in the name of Islam then there is much more than simple right or wrong.

What right did the Palestinians have to destabilize Jordan?
They created a state within a state in Jordan and became miscreants in the land of their own Muslim brothers who were hosting them...this resulted in a huge conflict in 1970 also famously known as the black September...what do you call that?
History is full of petty politics over this cause and countries like Jordan, Syria and Egypt not seeing eye to eye.
PLO did a lot of damage to their cause and the damage i am afraid has been done only too well...

This does not absolve the Israeli state of its humanitarian crimes...however i am just saying that Muslims did a lot of damage to themselves and it is about time we realize that it is not violence which shall end this suffering but reform and organization.

It is not like there were no military solutions being sought by the Arab countries but it all failed...in the end we have to adopt a better means to end this perpetual conflict.

Even Salahuddin was not shy of seeking truce and mutual give and take was part of such agreements.
In simplicity all the crusaders were invaders so were all his enemies, but that did not mean that he ignore the ground realities and so he treated with them to reach some sort of arrangement, it is called diplomacy and is not just for the non Muslims.

Richard slaughtered hundreds of innocent Muslim civilian prisoners (of the fallen city of Acre) when Salahuddin did not agree to some terms he was offering...this put Salahuddin off tremendously for many weeks who was furious but eventually as the conflict prolonged he did indeed enter into a peace treaty with Richard who was the aggressor....indeed if Salahuddin did it for the greater good then we can also treat with any party no matter how unpopular, in order to ensure a peaceful co existence for all...is it not what the priority is?

The fact that the Palestinian leaders are themselves at each others throats, split into factions and not coherent in their line of thought and action is making it very difficult for anyone to help them.

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## TOPGUN

Two different forces both are strong in there place perhaps one more hi tech then the other then perhaps one is more braver then the other .. anyhow why have topics about Pakistan & Israel ? we have nothing to do with them & they have nothing to with us.. but one thing is forsure iam sure they know we are know cowards & they also know the high standard & might of our forces .


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## waraich66

All-Green said:


> So all Israeli Jews are enemies?
> The state maybe but certainly not all the Israelis.
> 
> You have to remember that it is not a very simple conflict and if you dig deep into the annals of history you shall see very ugly facts about Arab backbiting and backstabbing which practically derailed the Palestinian cause...the ugly fact is that there is too much disunity in the ranks of the Arabs over this...had they adhered to the U.N. Partition plan they may have been better off...still let us hope they reach a conclusion.
> Out of all Arab countries Egypt gave Israel the toughest time but they also realized that Palestinian cause is not being helped in anyway by being hostile towards Israel...
> 
> It is a sad fate and i personally hold many in Israeli government and institutes responsible for a lot of atrocities but that does not mean the common Israeli Jews are all our enemies.
> Such generalizations are not accurate because it takes a lot from someone to be declared an enemy of the righteous as per the Quran...
> 
> The suicide bombings and such extremist acts have only made the situation for the Muslims worse.
> When people justify terrorism in the name of Islam then there is much more than simple right or wrong.
> 
> What right did the Palestinians have to destabilize Jordan?
> They created a state within a state in Jordan and became miscreants in the land of their own Muslim brothers who were hosting them...this resulted in a huge conflict in 1970 also famously known as the black September...what do you call that?
> History is full of petty politics over this cause and countries like Jordan, Syria and Egypt not seeing eye to eye.
> PLO did a lot of damage to their cause and the damage i am afraid has been done only too well...
> 
> This does not absolve the Israeli state of its humanitarian crimes...however i am just saying that Muslims did a lot of damage to themselves and it is about time we realize that it is not violence which shall end this suffering but reform and organization.
> 
> It is not like there were no military solutions being sought by the Arab countries but it all failed...in the end we have to adopt a better means to end this perpetual conflict.
> 
> Even Salahuddin was not shy of seeking truce and mutual give and take was part of such agreements.
> In simplicity all the crusaders were invaders so were all his enemies, but that did not mean that he ignore the ground realities and so he treated with them to reach some sort of arrangement, it is called diplomacy and is not just for the non Muslims.
> 
> Richard slaughtered hundreds of innocent Muslim civilian prisoners (of the fallen city of Acre) when Salahuddin did not agree to some terms he was offering...this put Salahuddin off tremendously for many weeks who was furious but eventually as the conflict prolonged he did indeed enter into a peace treaty with Richard who was the aggressor....indeed if Salahuddin did it for the greater good then we can also treat with any party no matter how unpopular, in order to ensure a peaceful co existence for all...is it not what the priority is?
> 
> The fact that the Palestinian leaders are themselves at each others throats, split into factions and not coherent in their line of thought and action is making it very difficult for anyone to help them.



Israel is enemy of muslim ummah , it is clear no need any explaination, i dont agree with you if you are telling that make your enemy your friend if he is power full.

But we have to learn lesson from them that their population is only 30 million , how many noble prices jews won and how many muslims won having population of 1.5 Billion?

We should gain knowledge to defeat their anti muslim ummah plans , you know very well they are controlling finance ,media and politicians of US only super power , but soon they will be responsible for distruction of USA due to their distructive idealogy and capitalist instrest based economy with which Allah always at war.

We have to boycot all their products and banks to resist their human right violation in Palestine and try to understand their game in middle east and central asia to capture oil resources and sea trade routes.

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## FreekiN

Fundamentalist said:


> Israel is enemy of muslim ummah , it is clear no need any explaination, i dont agree with you if you are telling that make your enemy your friend if he is power full.
> 
> But we have to learn lesson from them that their population is only 30 million , how many noble prices jews won and how many muslims won having population of 1.5 Billion?
> 
> We should gain knowledge to defeat their anti muslim ummah plans , you know very well they are controlling finance ,media and politicians of US only super power , but soon they will be responsible for distruction of USA due to their distructive idealogy and capitalist instrest based economy with which Allah always at war.
> 
> We have to boycot all their products and banks to resist their human right violation in Palestine and try to understand their game in middle east and central asia to capture oil resources and sea trade routes.



It's not just about gaining knowledge... we have the knowledge... it's about getting up and actually doing something with the knowledge.

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## Naradmuni

Conqueror said:


> Quraan - Aal-e-Imran, verse No. 148-149.
> &#1605;&#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;! &#1575;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1575;&#1601;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746; &#1578;&#1608; &#1608;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1657;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1572;&#1722; &#1662;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585; (&#1605;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585 &#1583;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1576;&#1681;&#1746; &#1582;&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1681; &#1580;&#1575;&#1572; &#1711;&#1746; (&#65279;&#1777;&#1780;&#1785;&#65279 (&#1740;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722 &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578;&#1585; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746;
> 
> No my friend, we are better off without making friendship with Israel and expecting any assistance in our defense from them. God has stated in the book and there is no one wiser than God.



What does it mean? Pakistan should hate Israel?

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## TOPGUN

mughaljee said:


> *nightcrawler
> &
> AZADPAKISTAN2009
> &
> fhassan *
> 
> Quote:
> ,
> Who wants to befriend USA but you are not going anywhere without them!! Israeil really want Pakistan to help it out for a kind off peace treaty b/w Israeil & Arabs I daresay Israeil will welcome Pakistan if Pakistan helped it to survive peacefully in a danger zone of Arabs & in the same time Palestinian issue may be resolved.
> 
> *Pakistani People don't need any kind of help from USA ....it is only our corrupt politicians who need $$$..*
> 
> Quote:
> Not quite, what the Qur'an says is very interesting Indeed:
> 
> As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably.
> 
> God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers!
> 
> (Quran 60:8-9)
> 
> I can't argue with that; nor could any sane person.
> 
> 
> Israel did not fight against Pakistan thats trure.. but ISRAEL fought against *"Muslims". *and above verse says *" who did not fight against you" means who did not fight against Muslims"...it doesn't matter from which country they belong. *
> 
> try to understand the meaning of the verse when Allah said "you" it means "Muslims" not Pakistani if you think Israel did not fight against Pakistan..so it is okay to take them as a friend?..then you are wrong..
> 
> read the verse again..
> 
> God only forbids you*[muslims]* to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you*[muslims] *because of [your *[muslims]* faith, and drive you *[muslim]* forth from your*[muslims]* homelands, or aid *[others]* in driving you[muslimss] forth: and as for those [from among you[muslim]] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers!
> 
> Quote:
> *8&#1580;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1740;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1580;&#1606;&#1711; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1711;&#1726;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1705;&#1575;&#1604;&#1575; &#1575;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1587;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1576;&#1726;&#1604;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1575; &#1587;&#1604;&#1608;&#1705; &#1705;&#1585;&#1606;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1605;&#1606;&#1593; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1575;&#1748; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1608; &#1575;&#1606;&#1589;&#1575;&#1601; &#1705;&#1585;&#1606;&#1746; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1608; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578; &#1585;&#1705;&#1726;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746;
> 
> 9&#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1575;&#1606; &#1729;&#1740; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1746; &#1587;&#1575;&#1578;&#1726; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578;&#1740; &#1705;&#1585;&#1606;&#1746; &#1587;&#1746; &#1605;&#1606;&#1593; &#1705;&#1585;&#1578;&#1575; &#1729;&#1746; &#1580;&#1606;&#1729;&#1608;&#1722; &#1606;&#1746; &#1578;&#1605; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1740;&#1606; &#1705;&#1746; &#1576;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1604;&#1681;&#1575;&#1574;&#1740; &#1705;&#1740; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1711;&#1726;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1606;&#1705;&#1575;&#1604;&#1575; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1606;&#1705;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1740; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583; &#1705;&#1740;&#1748; &#1578;&#1608; &#1580;&#1608; &#1604;&#1608;&#1711; &#1575;&#1740;&#1587;&#1608;&#1722; &#1587;&#1746; &#1583;&#1608;&#1587;&#1578;&#1740; &#1705;&#1585;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1608;&#1729;&#1740; &#1592;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722; *
> 
> 1-Haven't Israelis fought against Muslims ?
> 2- Haven't Israelis driven Muslims out of their homes?
> 
> okay now check the list of wars
> Wars of Israel
> 
> 
> Quote:
> The violent confrontations which appear in this list were recognized as wars by the Defense Minister of Israel:
> 
> 1948 War of Independence (November 1947 - July 1949),
> (1948 Arab?Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> The Sinai War (October 1956) - .
> (Suez Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> Six-Day War (June 1967) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War)- fought between Israel (Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and Arab (Arab people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) neighbors Egypt (Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), Jordan (Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and Syria (Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
> War of Attrition (1968-1970) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Attrition)- a limited war (Limited war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) fought between the Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)military and forces of the Egyptian Republic (Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia),
> Yom Kippur War (October 1973) .
> Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> First Lebanon War (1982) (1982 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - began in 6 June 1982, when the Israel Defense Forces (Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) invaded southern Lebanon (Southern Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
> Second Lebanon War (summer 2006) -
> (2006 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> ^^these are the Israelis sources...and what they did in wars everybody knows...
> 
> Read Israel's illegal occupation
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Israeli settlements
> 
> Quote:
> are Israeli civilian communities in the Israeli-occupied territories (lands that were captured from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria by Israel during the 1967 Six-Day War).[1] Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank,[2] East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. The latter two areas are governed under Israeli civil law but are considered to be under military occupation by the international community
> (Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> (West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> (East Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> (Golan Heights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> (Military occupation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> (International community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> On 18 November 2009, the United States voiced their dismay at the approved by the Israel's interior ministry of 900 additional housing units at a Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem. A White House spokesman said the move makes it "more difficult" to revive Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. *Settlements on occupied territory are considered illegal under international law! *
> (Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> Quote:
> Now, it is up to you to judge whether or not Israel meets the criteria with whom friendship is forbidden.
> 
> yes they fought with Muslims...
> 
> 
> Quote:
> It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that All&#226;h forbids you to befriend them And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Z&#226;lim&#251;n (wrong-doers those who disobey All&#226;h){60:9}..
> 
> Quote:
> Islam does not disallow friendship with Jews or Christians just because they happen to be Jews or Christians.
> 
> Only those Jews or Christians who don't support Israel..and they are very less...and most of them don't live in ISRAEL..
> these Jews are also against of "the whole state of Israel"
> HIrmrdGIFtI[/media] - Rabbi burns Israeli passport at London Demo
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> pakistan:Insha Allah Next time updated)




Inded its the state of israel that is evil not all the people no doubt most of them are very nice and decent , loving etc i have worked with them and still do. Haterd is on both sides iam sorry i play fair peace needs to happen perhaps not for the sake of friendship but the sake of stoping the bloodshed . But anyhow this video is really funny hahahaha somoene should send it to the Gov if Israel


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## waraich66

Narad said:


> What does it mean? Pakistan should hate Israel?



We should love them as human being but we should hate their idealogy of discrimination and racisim

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## razgriz19

alirulesall123 said:


> Let the Arabs solve their own problems. The sons of Pakistan will not be used as weapons in the Israel-Palestine conflict. The day I see Arab countries support Pakistan over India, is the day I will consider sacrificing a drop of Pakistani blood for the Arab cause.



they did...in 1965 and1971 by providing financial support and i even heard that iran provided free oil for our jets....

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## Conqueror

Narad said:


> What does it mean? Pakistan should hate Israel?



Conflict between Pakistan and Israel is not territorial, but Ideological. A 6 months old child does not become a threat to Israel's existence but even then the child that cannot recognize his/her own parents is assassinated. Do you ever ask why?



















*Quran Says - Al-Ma'idah - *
*
&#1610;&#1614;&#1575; &#1571;&#1614;&#1610;&#1615;&#1617;&#1607;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1570;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1617;&#1582;&#1616;&#1584;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1583;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1589;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1614;&#1609; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1590;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1590;&#1613; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606; &#1610;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605; &#1605;&#1616;&#1617;&#1606;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1614; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1610;&#1614;&#1607;&#1618;&#1583;&#1616;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1592;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; (5:51) 
*
*O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another [72] and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide such evildoers. [73]*

Yahood (Jews) and Hanood (Followers of Hindu Religion) are not our friends, not because of money, nor because of land, neither because of power-sharing and never because of business BUT we are on two sides of the line drawn by God Almighty.

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## mjnaushad

Narad said:


> Sorry to say this but what I understand here is, *YOUR RELIGION PREACHES HATE* !!


It does not say that hate Jews and Christians. its saying they will not be your friends. *so stay alert*. but its hard to understand for you because you have HATE in your heart for islam. cant help you there.

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## Naradmuni

mjnaushad said:


> It does not say that hate Jews and Christians. its saying they will not be your friends. *so stay alert*. but its hard to understand for you because you have HATE in your heart for islam. cant help you there.



Why cant be friends? Who are you kidding? Its completely intolerant and hateful statement. Do all muslims believe this stuff ?

So is this the divine sentence that is cause of the Islamic terrorism worldwide? I ve heard there is one more of this sort, Kill kafirs and go to jannat. Now isnt this full of hatred?

Dont bring me in the loop. I am just asking, not showing my hate or affection to anyone.


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## mjnaushad

Narad said:


> Why cant be friends? Who are you kidding? Its completely intolerant and hateful.
> 
> Dont bring me in the loop. I am just asking, not showing my hate or affection to anyone.


ohh really. you are not showing hate. your previous post says something else. or i should say *Sorry to say this but what I understand here is, YOUR POST PREACHES HATE !!* And yes they cant be friends. What is friend. the one who help you in difficult time without any greed.


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## Naradmuni

mjnaushad said:


> And yes they cant be friends.



Just because mullas or the book say so? I can understand if palestinians have problems with israel but what have pakistanis to do with it? Sorry mate, but it does not make sense to me to have blind faith in whatever is said or written hundreds of year ago.

Have a good night!!


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## mjnaushad

Narad said:


> Just because mullas or the book say so? I can understand if palestinians have problems with israel but what have pakistanis to do with it? Sorry mate, but it does not make sense to me to have blind faith in whatever is said or written hundreds of year ago.
> 
> Have a good night!!


all religions Hindu religion, Christianity, Buddhism, all are many hundred years old. dont bow to ram or hanuman or Kali (In case you are Hindu). Dont goto church (If you are Christian). because these all things are said, written hundreds years ago.


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## UchihaCG

mjnaushad said:


> all religions Hindu religion, Christianity, Buddhism, all are many hundred years old. dont bow to ram or hanuman or Kali (In case you are Hindu). Dont goto church (If you are Christian). because these all things are said, written hundreds years ago.



I ignore it 
...because I have sense, and am educated. .

And also, Hindus may follow their ways, Christians may follow theirs and Muslims too may follow their own ways. There's nothing wrong with that. But what you're saying is: Even if it hurts someone and is not right, i'll do it because the Qur'an says so and i follow the Qur'an.

You'll hate Israel because the Qur'an told you to.... ok. then:
*SURAH 47:4
Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.*

*
Surah 98:6
Those who reject Islam are "the vilest of creatures" and thus deserve no mercy. *

*
Surah 8:65:
'O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand. '. 
*
Come kill me, I'm not Muslim. 

What's the point in being EDUCATED then?

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## FreekiN

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the *People of the Book* is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in *marriage*) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"

_Is this hate?_

Just because a person might be a non-Muslim it doesn't automatically make him an enemy to the Muslims. Peace-loving and innocent non-Muslims are to be treated with justice and kindness, otherwise the Muslims would be committing a sin and violating Allah Almighty's Holy Commands, "For Allah loveth Those who are just".

And this, Narad, contradicts your statement,

"As to those who turn (For friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship of) Believers - it is the Fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph. (The Noble Quran, 5:56)"

"*And there are, certainly,* among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

"*Not all of them are alike*: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

Anyone who has an IQ level above 50 would know better to not look for information from Islamo-hate websites.

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## Red Dwarf

Religion is not a static one. If it cannot change according to time, it will suffer.

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## hataf

Red Dwarf said:


> Religion is not a static one. If it cannot change according to time, it will suffer.



but this is not the case for islam
islam is static as it was 1400 years ago and will in future.....
we are suffering because some of us trying to change it
"moderonized islam"

but at the time they realize that they are wrong there will be no going back
and its my believe

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## Conqueror

Narad said:


> Sorry to say this but what I understand here is, *YOUR RELIGION PREACHES HATE* !!



*Don't jump to conclusions.* Read and understand what is the message. When we are told that Yahood and Hanood are never your friends but friends of each other, that does not stop us from doing trade, negotiations or treaties with them.. but what God has mentioned is affirmative and the bottom line. We are asked to be careful about them by understanding that fact. If we hate Yahood and Hanood, who do you think are left to preach? Alians? Who are Muslims? the ones who grow from wheat fields? Being a Muslim means somebody who surrenders himself and his will to the God and does only what God has commanded him/her to do. Even if you starting doing the same in the next minute, you are Muslim.. and the God is same God who you recognize and call Brahma. Muslims DO NOT HATE Yahood or Hanood but we know for the fact that they could be friends of each-other but Never a reliable partner, friend or supporter of Muslims. Period.

Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWW has done peace treaties with both Yahood and Hanood but understanding the fact that none of them are reliable and none of them could be in their favor when it is the time for that. And go through the history books that they betrayed Muslims time and again to the date we exist.

I beg God's forgiveness if I haven't conveyed meanings of his message properly.

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## hataf

don't use word "GOD" for ALLAH
ALLAH SUBH-A-N-O-TALA love it that we use ALLAH word

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## MadDog

*1)* When the *verse allowing the permission to fight in war* was revealed it was a *time when pagan armies had surrounded muslims...so it was ordered to fight them *... in *self defence*...my *question to the person who put the verse in this forum is that if u know that 2 ppl are outside ur house to kill u...will u fight to defend ur life or kiss em...what a stupid post it was.*
*2)* Any ways...the question about friendship or being allies with them..is that according to a scholar of trinidad who also studied in Karachi "Shekh Imran Hosein" it is *dont take them as ur auliya...that means dont get into an alliance with them in which they are at a stronger position and its not at equal terms* ... yes thats forbidden for muslims.

*3) *Someone said "kill me , i am not a muslim"...*my friend muslims ruled india for over 1000 years...if they wanted to convert by force they could ve done it*...but they didnt..hindus had equal rights...*Islam makes sure that minorities have equal rights*
*Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gourian himself said that for jews the time when muslims ruled spain was golden age.*

*4) *Some one posted " Those who reject Islam are "the vilest of creatures" and thus deserve no mercy. "
At the time of Quranic revelation the* jewish tribes in arabia used to tell the polythiestic arabs that a prophet is going to come and he will revive the religion of Abraham (Peace Be Upon Him)* and he will *finish this polytheism*.....but when Prophet Muhammad (S) came with signs in their scriptures *they denied him (SAW)*...so those who were sure that he (SAW) was the prophet mentioned in their scriptures...yet they denied him..God was'nt happy with them.

*5)* When muslims ruled from spain upto india...no one was mistreated. Infact once *when Hazrat Ali was Caliph, he was summoned to the court of a Qazi, A Jew had filed a suit against him and claimed the Caliph's armour*. The Caliph called at the court and stood by the side of the claimant (Plaintiff) and did not tolerate any consideration for his exalted position.. The claimant (Jew) produced several witnesses in support of his claim. The Qazi enquired from Hazrat Ali whether he had anything to say in his defence. The Caliph replied in the negative and the *Qazi decided the case in favour of the Jew and awarded him the armour which the Caliph had actually purchased from him*. The Jew was much struck *with the impartial judgment of the Qazi and returned the armour to the Caliph, saying, that the Caliph had actually purchased the armour from him (Jew*). He had* filed the suit in order to test the impartiality of the Caliph *and his court which magnificently stood the test.

So to say God says kill all non believers isnt right....
In Surah-AlFatiha (Chapter 1) verse 1-2

*Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, (2) The Beneficent, the Merciful. *

*Allah means Al (The Only) and illah ( God)...it means "The Only God"..*so He is the creater and *God and Lord of the all mankind and every creation...He is not only the God of Muslims....*so it is *realy stupid to assumed that God would tell to show no mercy to all non believers but only those who know the truth yet in defiance to God...are not accepting...and creating trouble on earth*.Atleast look at the situation when these verses were revealed ..*how can u put everything in terms of today's world.......it was a different situation at that time..when there were people who were waiting for a prophet and who had seen signs themselves yet they were not believeing.*

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## Dazzler

MODS please close this thread as it has gone way off limits!!


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## pak-yes

yes MODS this thread should be closed.It has turned into religious debate we don't need to justify Hindus anything about our religion.It is Perfect religion.


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## All-Green

Fundamentalist said:


> Israel is enemy of muslim ummah , it is clear no need any explaination, i dont agree with you if you are telling that make your enemy your friend if he is power full.
> 
> But we have to learn lesson from them that their population is only 30 million , how many noble prices jews won and how many muslims won having population of 1.5 Billion?
> 
> We should gain knowledge to defeat their anti muslim ummah plans , you know very well they are controlling finance ,media and politicians of US only super power , but soon they will be responsible for distruction of USA due to their distructive idealogy and capitalist instrest based economy with which Allah always at war.
> 
> We have to boycot all their products and banks to resist their human right violation in Palestine and try to understand their game in middle east and central asia to capture oil resources and sea trade routes.



Well number one thing which you should at least try to understand is that any enemy can be treated with to ensure betterment of all, i am not talking about surrender of everything but give and take to make sure that you are not annihilated.
It is not cowardice but to end perpetual bloodshed and violence.
The fact that the greatest of Muslims including the Prophet PBUH entered into such treaties is the basis of my argument.
Anyways we can leave a discussion on this for later because that is not the entirety of what i said.

What i was saying was that the ordinary Israeli is not our enemy, the state of Israel perhaps due to its policy can be classified as one but certainly not the common Israeli...

Also to turn a blind eye to what PLO did is not right...the actions of PLO and infighting which made it isolated from its supporters also needs to be examined instead of simply calling all Arab countries as dishonorable cowards who did nothing for Palestinians... 
This is a very common misconception that everyone abandoned the Palestinians, many countries risked a lot for them but eventually what the PLO did in Jordan made sure that many in the Arabian countries disliked their highhandedness...

Now the ongoing drama between Fatah and Hamas is there for all to see....how will we help them if their leaders are so full of hate for each other?

Boycott everything Israeli if you so desire because that is fair way to show your anger but spreading hate for all Israelis will not help, it is no denying that whatever arrangement is made in future...Palestinians and Israelis have to live side by side...flaming anger against all Palestinians or Israelis by anyone would only make it worse, now and later.

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## waraich66

All-Green said:


> Well number one thing which you should at least try to understand is that any enemy can be treated with to ensure betterment of all, i am not talking about surrender of everything but give and take to make sure that you are not annihilated.
> It is not cowardice but to end perpetual bloodshed and violence.
> The fact that the greatest of Muslims including the Prophet PBUH entered into such treaties is the basis of my argument.
> Anyways we can leave a discussion on this for later because that is not the entirety of what i said.
> 
> What i was saying was that the ordinary Israeli is not our enemy, the state of Israel perhaps due to its policy can be classified as one but certainly not the common Israeli...
> 
> Also to turn a blind eye to what PLO did is not right...the actions of PLO and infighting which made it isolated from its supporters also needs to be examined instead of simply calling all Arab countries as dishonorable cowards who did nothing for Palestinians...
> This is a very common misconception that everyone abandoned the Palestinians, many countries risked a lot for them but eventually what the PLO did in Jordan made sure that many in the Arabian countries disliked their highhandedness...
> 
> Now the ongoing drama between Fatah and Hamas is there for all to see....how will we help them if their leaders are so full of hate for each other?
> 
> Boycott everything Israeli if you so desire because that is fair way to show your anger but spreading hate for all Israelis will not help, it is no denying that whatever arrangement is made in future...Palestinians and Israelis have to live side by side...flaming anger against all Palestinians or Israelis by anyone would only make it worse, now and later.



Islamic Fatwa says , land of Palestine can not be sold to Jew , it is haram (Reference Mufti Kafait ullah Deoband).It has same value as we have value of Makkah and Madina.

It is beyond our authority to accept existance of Israel , no doubt Palestinians did lot of mistakes that is reason now they suffering , but muslim ummah should not recognised Israeli state build on occupied land of Palestine.

Business , trade or any exchange of technology is impossible untill every inch of palestine librated from Israeli forces.

Muslim Ummah is at war with Israel and remain uptill complete liberation of Palestine.

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## neyaab

this is not possibl
go away Israel


Pkcolumns , Paksitani Columns, Urdu Columns, Pakistani editorials, Pakistani articles


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## All-Green

The verses of Quran pertaining to not trusting Jews and Christians is actually referring to the tribes which were either part of Medina pact with Prophet Muhammad PBUH or were neutral overtly but in reality either helped or were secretly arranging with the enemy to annihilate the Muslims in Medina, this was a warning from Allah to his Prophet PBUH and in no way can be interpreted to be a universal order spreading mistrust against all Jews and Christians.

Since Jews and Christians are people of the book they are actually more similar to the Muslims and that is the reason the Prophet PBUH instructed the Muslims to respect them as such and mingle with them.
However a few tribes with political ambitions did not like the high respect and authority which the Prophet PBUH commanded and stooped so low as to betray their comrades of the Medina pact just so to eliminate a political threat.
The treachery of a few Jewish and christian tribes in and around Medina is not a phenomena which has universal implication...this needs to be understood.

For understanding of all let me point to the constitution of Medina in which all people including the Jews were included in the Ummah.
The rights of everyone were guaranteed including the non Muslims whose rights were mentioned as 

1 *The security (dhimma) of God is equal for all groups*, this implies that same protection was offered to everyone regardless of their religion. The dhimma (non muslim citizens) had all rights and instead of Zakat which the Muslims paid, they had to pay Jizya as a tax.
2* Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.*
3 *Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.* Ummah here means all those in the pact whether Muslim or non Muslim, implying that if any was attacked by outside forces all would collectively fight the aggressor.
4 *Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.*

Once certain tribes started collaborating with the Quraish, a divine warning was given to the Prophet PBUH...to extrapolate this into a universal filter through which we have to judge all Christians and Jews is perhaps one of the worst blunders that many half cooked religious scholars make and those who believe them need to reassess this all.

Quran clearly mentions that all those who believe in god and do good deeds shall be rewarded by Him...
*Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians whoever believes in God and the last day and perform good deeds will be rewarded by their Lord; they will have nothing to fear or to regret. (Quran; 2:62)*

There are countless other verses which points to good qualities of Jews and Christians
*
Among the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there are those who if you trust them with a treasure, will return it to you; and among them there are those who, if you trust them with a dinar, will not return it to you, unless you keep standing over them. (3:75)

They are not all alike. Among the people of the Book there is a party who stand by their covenant; they recite the Word of God in the hours of night and prostrate themselves before Him. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin good and forbid evil, and hasten to vie with one another in good works. And these are among the righteous. (3:113)

And surely among the People of the Book there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and in what was sent down to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They trade not the signs of God for a paltry price. It is these who shall have their reward with their Lord. Surely God is swift in settling account. (3:199)*

What to make of the fact that Allah has made it lawful unto the Muslims to marry women from amongst the Jews and Christians?

*"Likewise, marriage with chaste free believing women and also chaste women among the People who were given the Book before you is made lawful for you." (Quran; 5:5)*

So you can marry them but not trust them?

Clearly one needs to understand that the mistrust is only pertaining to those who are oppressors and deny others their rights to co exist...which even applies to Muslims who are oppressors.

There is no reason for Muslims to mistrust all Jews and Christians, we should denounce the Israeli aggression and take practical steps to resolve the conflict but certainly this does not mean that all Israelis are evil and the entire Jewish community is our enemy.


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## All-Green

Fundamentalist said:


> Islamic Fatwa says , land of Palestine can not be sold to Jew , it is haram (Reference Mufti Kafait ullah Deoband).It has same value as we have value of Makkah and Madina.
> 
> It is beyond our authority to accept existance of Israel , no doubt Palestinians did lot of mistakes that is reason now they suffering , but muslim ummah should not recognised Israeli state build on occupied land of Palestine.
> 
> Business , trade or any exchange of technology is impossible untill every inch of palestine librated from Israeli forces.
> 
> Muslim Ummah is at war with Israel and remain uptill complete liberation of Palestine.



The land of Palestine was resided by many Jews as well, Jerusalem is not the same as Mecca and Medina because in Mecca and Medina non Muslims are not allowed whereas in Jerusalem non Muslims are and were always allowed...from a religious perspective there is nothing wrong with Palestinians and Israelis co existing, however in current scenario the Israeli state has denied Palestinians their rights and therefore has to be pressurized to become less hostile.

However if you believe that any piece of Palestinian land cannot be owned by a Jew then that is something both history and religion prove absolutely wrong.
This land was and will always be shared between all the people of the book...it is not a Muslim only zone like Mecca and Medina....

This so called fatwa if you have translated correctly implies that the Caliphs of Islam from Umar RA onwards and likes of Salahuddin got it all wrong regarding Jerusalem because in their times all the people of the book shared Jerusalem and owned land in Jerusalem and the surrounding land?
Certainly that is not the case!

The thing which is wrong with Israel is that they are forcibly taking away a land which by its history was shared amongst people of all faiths and this was honored by Muslim Caliphs and Kings since the advent of Islam.
The new settlements are illegal and certainly should be opposed!
They are practically keeping the Palestinians under siege and that is what we should denounce...because it is not in the spirit of the holy land.
It is not that Jews or Christians cannot own property in Jerusalem or the land of Palestine...they always did and that was not denied to them by the Muslims rulers even despite the fact that when the ignorant Christian crusaders captured Jerusalem they slaughtered the Muslims.
When the fortunes of wars reversed and Salahuddin retook Jerusalem from the Christians...he did not target any Christian nor expel them from Jerusalem...clearly the principles of Islam were dear to him and i wish our people could learn from Salahuddin regarding how to conduct themselves in such a situation.
Israels aggression does not imply that we also demand more than what was our share, Muslims and Jews co existed peacefully in this land before the creation of Israel and so that is what we should work back towards...we should be concerned with getting the Palestinians their rights...not the destruction of Israeli Jews from the face of the earth.

The dislike of Israel should not be translated into mistrust or hate of Jews or Christians.

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## Storm Force

Why are pakistan defense forum talking about Israel 

Theres no link. 

They are totally unrelated

OTHER THAN INDIA,S BIGGEST ARMS SUPPLIER after RUSSIA


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## KillBill

Conqueror said:


> *Don't jump to conclusions.* Read and understand what is the message. When we are told that Yahood and Hanood are never your friends but friends of each other, that does not stop us from doing trade, negotiations or treaties with them.. but what God has mentioned is affirmative and the bottom line. We are asked to be careful about them by understanding that fact. If we hate Yahood and Hanood, who do you think are left to preach? Alians? *Who are Muslims? the ones who grow from wheat fields? *Being a Muslim means somebody who surrenders himself and his will to the God and does only what God has commanded him/her to do. Even if you starting doing the same in the next minute, you are Muslim.. and the God is same God who you recognize and call Brahma. Muslims DO NOT HATE Yahood or Hanood but we know for the fact that they could be friends of each-other but Never a reliable partner, friend or supporter of Muslims. Period.



The ones born to Muslim parents?

In my knowledge in 2009, most of the muslims are BORN muslims, they are not the one who were yahood or hanood and learnt this religion and embrassed this. Am i Wrong?

So unless you have compared the messages in each religion and did not actually CHOOSE this how can you say that you surrendered ?


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## waraich66

All-Green said:


> The land of Palestine was resided by many Jews as well, Jerusalem is not the same as Mecca and Medina because in Mecca and Medina non Muslims are not allowed whereas in Jerusalem non Muslims are and were always allowed...from a religious perspective there is nothing wrong with Palestinians and Israelis co existing, however in current scenario the Israeli state has denied Palestinians their rights and therefore has to be pressurized to become less hostile.
> 
> However if you believe that any piece of Palestinian land cannot be owned by a Jew then that is something both history and religion prove absolutely wrong.
> This land was and will always be shared between all the people of the book...it is not a Muslim only zone like Mecca and Medina....
> 
> This so called fatwa if you have translated correctly implies that the Caliphs of Islam from Umar RA onwards and likes of Salahuddin got it all wrong regarding Jerusalem because in their times all the people of the book shared Jerusalem and owned land in Jerusalem and the surrounding land?
> Certainly that is not the case!
> 
> The thing which is wrong with Israel is that they are forcibly taking away a land which by its history was shared amongst people of all faiths and this was honored by Muslim Caliphs and Kings since the advent of Islam.
> The new settlements are illegal and certainly should be opposed!
> They are practically keeping the Palestinians under siege and that is what we should denounce...because it is not in the spirit of the holy land.
> It is not that Jews or Christians cannot own property in Jerusalem or the land of Palestine...they always did and that was not denied to them by the Muslims rulers even despite the fact that when the ignorant Christian crusaders captured Jerusalem they slaughtered the Muslims.
> When the fortunes of wars reversed and Salahuddin retook Jerusalem from the Christians...he did not target any Christian nor expel them from Jerusalem...clearly the principles of Islam were dear to him and i wish our people could learn from Salahuddin regarding how to conduct themselves in such a situation.
> Israels aggression does not imply that we also demand more than what was our share, Muslims and Jews co existed peacefully in this land before the creation of Israel and so that is what we should work back towards...we should be concerned with getting the Palestinians their rights...not the destruction of Israeli Jews from the face of the earth.
> 
> The dislike of Israel should not be translated into mistrust or hate of Jews or Christians.




Question and Answer Details


Name of Questioner
Foulan 

Title
Islamic Ruling on Selling the Palestinian Lands to the Jews 

Question
Dear scholars, as-Salamu `alaykum. What is the Islamic legal ruling concerning selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews or receiving compensations for it? 

Date
15/May/2004

Name of Counsellor
A Group of Islamic Researchers

Topic
Relations during War



Answer



Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh. 


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. 


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. 


Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake. 

It is to be stated that Muslim scholars have unanimously agreed that it is haram (unlawful) to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews, and to practice brokerage activities or mediation to facilitate selling the lands by any means or under any form. In a large meeting held at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on 26 January 1935, a host of scholars gave their Fatwa concerning the legality or otherwise of selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews. The content of the Fatwa is as follows: 

"All praise and thanks are due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and peace and blessings be upon His trustworthy Messenger, His kith and kin, his companions, and all those who follow their guidance until the Day of Judgment. 

To commence: we, the muftis, judges, instructors, orators, Imams, preachers and all Muslim scholars in Palestine, gathered today in this religious meeting held at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, the neighborhood whereof Allah has blessed. After a thorough analysis and deep thought as for the consequences of selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews, we come to the conclusion that this would fulfill the objectives of Zionism, which aims at the Judaization of Islamic holy lands, usurping them and expelling people from their homes. This (i.e. selling the lands) would, moreover, erase the traces of Islam by demolishing mosques, places of worship as well as Islamic holy places. This has already taken place in the villages that were sold to the Jews; they expelled their inhabitants and rendered them homeless. There is fear lest this &#8211;Allah forbid &#8211; might occur in Al-Aqsa Mosque, the first of the two Qiblas (direction of prayer) and the third of the holy Mosques. 

Reviewing the Fatwas given by Muslim muftis and scholars in Iraq, Egypt, India, Morocco, Syria, Palestine and other Muslim countries, we found out that they have unanimously agreed that it is haram to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews, and to practice brokerage activities or mediation to facilitate selling the lands by any means or under any form. The scholars have also declared unlawful that a person should accept this or show reticence about it. Should any Palestinian get involved in any of these activities, he will be considered fully aware of its consequences and satisfied with it &#8211; which means that he will be accused of disbelief and apostasy if he comes to deem it halal (lawful) to do so. This has been stated in the fatwa given by his Eminence Sheikh Amin Al-Husayni, the mufti of Jerusalem and the head of the supreme Islamic council. 

Having examined all the aforementioned Fatwas, we voice our support and approval that the seller of, broker and mediator in selling the Palestinian lands to the Jews is to be regarded as: 

1) Supporting and helping in the expulsion of Muslims from their homes; 

2) Preventing Allah&#8217;s Name to be mentioned in Allah&#8217;s mosques and endeavoring for their ruing; 

3) Taking the Jews as patrons and supporters, since his action implies his assistance and helping them against Muslims; 

4) Doing harm to Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Believers (Muslims); 

5) And as betraying Allah, His Messenger and the responsibility he was entrusted with. This prohibition of selling the Palestinian lands finds support in the following verses of the Glorious Qur'an: 

&#8220;O you who believe! Betray not Allah and his Messenger, nor betray knowingly your moral responsibilities (entrusted to you). And know that your possession and your children are but a trial and that surely with Allah is a mighty reward.&#8221; (Al-Anfal: 27-28) 

&#8220;And those who harm believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.&#8221; (Al-Ahzab: 58) 

&#8220;And who is more unjust than those who forbid that Allah&#8217;s Name be glorified and mentioned much in Allah&#8217;s mosques and strive for their ruin? It was not fitting that such should themselves enter them except in fear. For them there is disgrace in this world, and will have a great torment in the hereafter.&#8221; (Al-Baqarah: 114) 

&#8220;Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, them such are the wrongdoers.&#8221; (Al-Mumtahanah: 8-9) 

&#8220;O you believe! Take not my enemies and your enemies as friends.&#8221; (Al-Mumtahanah: 1) 

&#8220;And if any amongst you takes them as supporters them surely he is of them.&#8221; (Al-Ma&#8217;idah: 51) Exegetes of the Qur&#8217;an mention that &#8220;he is one of them&#8221; means he is considered one of them (one enemy of Allah) and thus be punished the same way as them. 
From all the foregoing evidence, sayings, judgments and Fatwas, we conclude that the one who sell land to the Jews in Palestine &#8211; whether he does so directly or through mediation &#8211; and anyone who acts as a broker, or mediator in the selling as well as anyone who facilitates the sale in any way, while being fully aware of the aforesaid consequences, must not be offered the Funeral Prayer when dead or buried in the Muslims cemetery. We must boycott, scoff at them and not be friendly or close to them even if they were our fathers, children, brothers or husbands. Allah says: &#8220;O you who believe! Take not for supporters and helpers your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to belief. And whoever of your wives, your kindred, the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which your fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you delight &#8230; are dearer to you than Allah and his Messenger, and striving hard and fighting in His cause, then wait until Allah brings about His Decision. And Allah guides not the people who are disobedient to Allah.&#8221; (At-Tawbah: 23-24) 

Likewise, showing reticence and indifference to such a despicable act is absolutely unlawful, (as Allah says &#8220;O you believe! Answer Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life, and know that Allah comes in between a person and his heart. And verily to Him you shall be gathered. And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial) which affects not in particular those of you who do and know that Allah is severe in punishment.&#8221; (Al-Anfal: 24-25) 

May Allah make us amongst those who listen to admonition and follow the best thereof. He is indeed our supreme patron and He is for sure the Best Disposer of Affairs. Issued on 20 Shawwal, 1533 A.H / 26 January 1935 C.E." 

Taken from publications of Al-Maktab Al-I`lami Al-`Arabi (the Arab Media Office) Cairo, Egypt. 



You can also read: 


Accepting Compensation For Land Of Palestine Is One Of The Gravest Sins 

Islamic Ruling on Selling the Palestinian Lands to the Jews - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

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## Solomon2

*"The Temple Mount&#8212;and Jerusalem&#8212;are Israel&#8217;s by Divine Right from
time immemorial. Israel recaptured its historic capital, Jerusalem, when the
Arabs threatened to push the Jews into the sea. It is wise not to question
Divine providence."*

- Abdul Hadi Palazzi


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## UchihaCG

KillBill said:


> The ones born to Muslim parents?
> 
> In my knowledge in 2009, most of the muslims are BORN muslims, they are not the one who were yahood or hanood and learnt this religion and embrassed this. Am i Wrong?
> 
> So unless you have compared the messages in each religion and did not actually CHOOSE this how can you say that you surrendered ?



Agree, I know a girl here who's from Pakistan (living in the US) and she reads the Qur'an in Arabic...... and I asked her one day, they teach Arabic in Pakistan? and she said, yes i learned to read the Quran. And i asked; do you understand? she said no. I only read. When I asked her what's the point of that? she told me she just reads.... and Allah will bless her for being muslim.

^^.
She's a "muslim" who listens to her parents, celebrates eid, fasts and eats halal. 

 
Makes plenty of sense doesn't it.

she's 17, and i'm very good friends with her....

EDIT: Yes that's sarcasm (since people didn't get it) Muslims now don't even know what they stand for....... this is a correct example. She reads, yet doesn't understand. But she follows all these things a good muslim is supposed to do. (eid, fasting, etc....). What's the point of your *religion* then?

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## MadDog

Listen dude,
thats why i read a *book "Development of Science & Technology
In Islamic History" by a British avionics engineer Shabeer Ahmed.*

According to him one of the *major reasons muslims started laggging behind in Science and Tech was not learning Arabic*...as all the research (if u check there r many BBC documentries, numbers 1-9, who made *sulphuric acid*, the word *chemistry* from *al-kimia* or the word* algebra *from *aljabr* or *algorithms*...all had *basis in Arabic.)*
When muslims spread to other countries they didnt learn Arabic and *got influenced by local cultures*..that is the one of the reason that they lacked behind). Others can be lack of use of ijthihad *when confronted by new situations in new cultures...etc.*
Anyways...today *European children learn more than one language *in *secondary school*..*Pak govt can introduce more languages including Arabic* in high school if it wants. In Ottoman Empire along with *Turkish, Arabic as also used*...so although it is good to recite Holy Quran in Arabic...but *translation can't tell what the real language can tell as Arabic is the most flexible language *and each word has many meanings...*u can't understand the proper in-depth meaning through translation only*...Arabic is realy important...i myself along with my friends am thinking of odering one realy nice book to learn Arabic..


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## MadDog

So in the end it can be said muslims need to change themselves and wake up.... The Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s companions (R): whenever they used to meet any outsider, the forgieners used to get so much impressed by their manners and rules of Islam that they used to convert but now the muslims are responsible for this condition in which they are as they ar'nt following anything properly.


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## ARSENAL6

UchihaCG said:


> ^^.
> She's a "muslim" who listens to her parents, celebrates eid, fasts and eats halal.
> 
> 
> Makes plenty of sense doesn't it.
> 
> EDIT: she's 17, and i'm very good friends with her....



Thats doesn't make someone a muslim !
Although it is one of the minor characteristics but it doesn't differentiate it to a non-muslim.
Keep your ideas to yourself UchihaCG


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## ARSENAL6

Solomon2 said:


> *"The Temple Mountand Jerusalemare Israels by Divine Right from
> time immemorial. Israel recaptured its historic capital, Jerusalem, when the
> Arabs threatened to push the Jews into the sea. It is wise not to question
> Divine providence."*
> 
> - Abdul Hadi Palazzi



Wishful thinking if you think you're going to get Muslim beliving on that rubbish of Irseal existance.
Solomon I have got Jewish Scholas that beilve that Isreal has nothing to do with Judisium and is a terrorist country.
I would provide links to it but you wouldn't want to know the truth as Allah(Swt) said in the glorious Quran that he blinded them made them deaf and dumb because of thier lies.


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## DesiGuy

pak-yes said:


> yes MODS this thread should be closed.It has turned into religious debate we don't need to justify Hindus anything about our religion.*It is Perfect religion*.




Seriously?

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## Solomon2

ARSENAL6 said:


> Wishful thinking if you think you're going to get Muslim beliving on that rubbish of Irseal existance.


Perhaps you'd like to take that up with the Imam I just quoted?



> Solomon I have got Jewish Scholas that beilve that Isreal has nothing to do with Judisium and is a terrorist country.


That would be an interesting debate: "Jewish Scholas that beilve that Isreal has nothing to do with Judisium and is a terrorist country" vs. an Imam who thinks the opposite. Who would you root for?



> I would provide links to it but -


 Yeah, right.

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## notorious ausiee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Most ppl don't realize that the Arabs , the Shieks of Arabia who helped Britain in WW1 had an agreement to get arabian desert lands in return for supporting them against Ottoman Empires.
> 
> In essesnce they sorta were traitors to Empire which was once called Ottoman Empire.
> 
> Once British won, they have the sheiks (mercenaries) lands
> (Saudia/Kuwait/ Bahrain/Oman/UAE/Qater etc), and they also bought
> some land legally (as far as I know for Jewish people I think to settled them there -
> 
> The Arabs , then attacked Israel and said get out , Israelis at that time had better weapons they sorta won anyways , and instead took more land - so if Arabs had actually abided by their contract and let the jewish ppl live there - there would be no war
> 
> Then they had second war, with Israel and we all know how well that went - 6 days whole war was over - and more land was lost
> 
> Then they simply built walls around Palestine remaining land, so they don'thave to see any suffering - and just look away.. like Egypt does not - they just close border and live in their own countries.
> 
> So , here we are Pakistan , miles away from Israel , we would be making great trade with Israel if it was not for Palestine , which is purely an Arabic , issue
> 
> *How often do Arabs support Pakistan ?? Other then ocassional Oil or money help to Pakistan -
> 
> Unless Arabs come to Pakistan and give us 100 billion or something to get weapons and fighters from us , and may be we can open a base in Saudia or other countries perhaps we can help out but other then that there is not much we can do ...*




ok my friend in the previous post some pakistani friends called india poor and full of *** eating people. So can you explain me that pakistani people proclaimed that they are full of "dignity" and "proud" then why they always look here and there for the financial help? why they always wondering about free weapon from china or on easy installments? when pakistan ask for these kind of helps where there dignity hide? or they close there eyes and consider themselve as beggers for few minutes. i think pakistan is a great nation and they have to behave like what they think not like beggers.

please explain me your nature or stop calling other nations poor and hungry

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## ARSENAL6

Solomon2 said:


> Perhaps you'd like to take that up with the Imam I just quoted?
> 
> 
> That would be an interesting debate: "Jewish Scholas that beilve that Isreal has nothing to do with Judisium and is a terrorist country" vs. an Imam who thinks the opposite. Who would you root for?



No need to take it with anyone - someone who claims with that crap is false anyway
and really has no knowlegde.
you just proved my points yet again. Its simple there are hard evidence of Israeli brutilty on Palestine's by IDF, Israeli Jews and Jewish Scholars and you are comparing that to a 
silly HTML website that any tom dick and harry can make.
Please I am not going to spoon feed you, go, you got internet and google it - by not doing it you have proved my point 3rd time going and you are in denial.

Don't worry like you, their are poeple who would go out of thier way to Lie, destruction, corruption and evil to succesed in their agenda even if it means to kill an innocent people like in Iraq, Palistine, Afaganistan, and make this simple website you quoted as realistic and flawless as possible to brainwash and lie to the people.
However, you and they, may work hard to decieve the world, Lie in its nature will vanish and truth will shown - exposing the lie that you always wanted to believe in. 

Furthermore anyone can claim to be Imam and make children stories, learn HTML and write disgusting lies but these lies are always exposed like a black mark on a white paper.
PLease continue with your false ideas and enjoy your fairy tales while it last.


I will now go do something that actually makes a difference in the real world


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## Solomon2

ARSENAL6 said:


> No need to take it with anyone - someone who claims with that crap is false anyway
> and really has no knowlegde.


Specify.


> you just proved my points yet again.


What points, exactly?


> Its simple there are hard evidence of Israeli brutilty on Palestine's by IDF, Israeli Jews and Jewish Scholars and you are comparing that to a silly HTML website that any tom dick and harry can make.


I see you've returned to edit and update your post. But I did not make a comparison, and I don't see in what way this Imam's website is of the "any tom dick and harry can make" sort. Furthermore raising a new issue doesn't negate his arguments, does it?



> Please I am not going to spoon feed you, go, you got internet and google it -


 Google what, exactly? You're the guy who didn't bother to click on the links, yet pretended to know what they contained!



> -by not doing it you have proved my point 3rd time going and you are in denial...However, you and they, may work hard to decieve the world, Lie in its nature will vanish and truth will shown - exposing the lie that you always wanted to believe in.


Displacement. You are talking about yourself.



> Don't worry like you, their are poeple who would go out of thier way to Lie, destruction, corruption and evil to succesed in their agenda even if it means to kill an innocent people like in Iraq, Palistine, Afaganistan, and make this simple website you quoted as realistic and flawless as possible to brainwash and lie to the people.


You are sputtering. I think you need to take your medications now.



> Furthermore anyone can claim to be Imam and make children stories, learn HTML and write disgusting lies but these lies are always exposed like a black mark on a white paper.


I am doing my poor best.



> I will now go do something that actually makes a difference in the real world


I guess that writing here isn't getting you anywhere. Please don't blow anything up, bye!

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## pak-yes

DesiGuy said:


> Seriously?



yes.If you had Studied ISLAM seriously you wouldn't be asking me.But i guess you are also one of those who never have studied anything but just believe what other's say.


----------



## DesiGuy

pak-yes said:


> yes.If you had Studied ISLAM seriously you wouldn't be asking me.But i guess you are also one of those who never have studied anything but just believe what other's say.



well, no i haven't studied Islam. but i have studied many Muslims and their countries. 
First of all, no religion is perfect. 
Second, Islam cannot be just perfect, in books. Every religion has their scared books, but that does not make these religion Perfect. 

OK, so i don't go and read what the quran says, BUT i surely see, what other Muslims do. 


by the way, if you still think u r right, than Hinduism is also perfect after Few Hindu killed many Muslims in Kashmir, as i have heard from many Muslims on this forum. 
but it doesn't matter, right, Hinduism is also perfect just like islam. 


by the way, u still think islam is perfect religion?

i would like to ask other my fellow muslims brothers.


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## pak-yes

As i just said you are also one of the propaganda affected people.I don't why people in the world take the actions of Muslim as the teachings of ISLAM.But then again its useless to argue with ones who just don't wanna work hard and learn the truth.


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## DesiGuy

pak-yes said:


> As i just said you are also one of the propaganda affected people.I don't why people in the world take the actions of Muslim as the teachings of ISLAM.But then again its useless to argue with ones who just don't wanna work hard and learn the truth.





well, no religion teach anything bad. it's just the people. now let's say for an example: 

A christian see Muslim killing another person. Now what kind of impression will it have on christian person? 

and than you tell him, to read Islam. 

this apply to not only you, or me, but to all others. 

most of the times, actions speaks louder than words, so other will not go and read, what's written in quran, BUT they will defiantly see what Muslim is doing. 
what he is following.

anyways, happy new year.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

With out Naming any Specific Religions 

Example: 

Religion 1 Says , don't kill, lie , cheat , bribery , help poor 
Religion 2 Says , don't kill, lie , cheat , bribery , help poor
Religion 3 Says , don't kill, lie , cheat , bribery , help poor 

But some how advocates of all 3 religions would says 
ours is better then yours so conflict arises 

80% of people in all religion are always busy with earning a living
they are too busy to work hard etc 

 and yet people continue to argue


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## UchihaCG

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> With out Naming any Specific Religions
> 
> Example:
> 
> Religion 1 Says , don't kill, lie , cheat , bribery , help poor
> Religion 2 Says , don't kill, lie , cheat , bribery , help poor
> Religion 3 Says , don't kill, lie , cheat , bribery , help poor
> 
> But some how advocates of all 3 religions would says
> ours is better then yours so conflict arises
> 
> 80&#37; of people in all religion are always busy with earning a living
> they are too busy to work hard etc
> 
> and yet people continue to argue



Sir, if you by chance one of those 3 religions you put up were Islam, it would make your statement false.



> don't kill


as i've already posted:


> SURAH 47:4
> Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
> 
> 
> Surah 98:6
> Those who reject Islam are "the vilest of creatures" and thus deserve no mercy.
> 
> 
> Surah 8:65:
> 'O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand. '.



There are many more in the Qur'an. Let's not waste bandwidth now 

Cheating and Lying, Killing in Hadith's:


> Book 38, Number 4390:
> 
> Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
> 
> I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.





> Qur'an (48:20) - "Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path."





> Qur'an (33:27) - "And He caused you to inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and land ye have not trodden. Allah is ever Able to do all things."



Now, please don't post to me the verses in the Qur'an where is says befriend the non believers, treat the Jews equally..... because that's a definite contradiction from (your) God.

People come to argue, because these religions have differences...... they may have the same roots (excluding Islam) but even in the same religion; there are arguments (look where Christianity is...)

Just my opinion on this thread:
You shouldn't be hating anyone because someone/something told you to hate.... Israel hasn't done anything to Pakistan.


----------



## mkiyani

DesiGuy said:


> well, no i haven't studied Islam. but i have studied many Muslims and their countries.
> First of all, no religion is perfect.
> Second, Islam cannot be just perfect, in books. Every religion has their scared books, but that does not make these religion Perfect.
> 
> OK, so i don't go and read what the quran says, BUT i surely see, what other Muslims do.
> 
> 
> by the way, if you still think u r right, than Hinduism is also perfect after Few Hindu killed many Muslims in Kashmir, as i have heard from many Muslims on this forum.
> but it doesn't matter, right, Hinduism is also perfect just like islam.
> 
> 
> by the way, u still think islam is perfect religion?
> 
> i would like to ask other my fellow muslims brothers.




If your religion is not perfect.. its not Islam's faualt .. so stop talking about Islam coz u r not a professor of islam. Dont blame the action few muslim over whole islam... If u dont like it go to hell but stop talking about islam... dont try justify ur cause by bashing islam... I love islam and I find it Perfect so I dont care what u think about it respect all religion and I will respect ur religion...


----------



## Awesome

UchihaCG said:


> Sir, if you by chance one of those 3 religions you put up were Islam, it would make your statement false.
> 
> 
> as i've already posted:
> 
> 
> There are many more in the Qur'an. Let's not waste bandwidth now
> 
> Cheating and Lying, Killing in Hadith's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, please don't post to me the verses in the Qur'an where is says befriend the non believers, treat the Jews equally..... because that's a definite contradiction from (your) God.
> 
> People come to argue, because these religions have differences...... they may have the same roots (excluding Islam) but even in the same religion; there are arguments (look where Christianity is...)
> 
> Just my opinion on this thread:
> You shouldn't be hating anyone because someone/something told you to hate.... Israel hasn't done anything to Pakistan.



It's amazing how quickly one separates himself from the ignorant and mundane religious zealot who googles "Evil Quotes from Quran" and then plasters them on forums. There's something called out of context posting. All of the areas where such things are commented upon by the Quran there is definitely an emphasis upon self-defence.

I mean seriously in a forum this large with 20,000 + members do you really think there wouldn't have been other idiots who previously attempted this line of flame baiting before?

Also its a sure shot way of earning bans if you ridiculously invoke theology on a secular forum like this.

Let this be a stern and final warning from the management team to all religious nut jobs that think they can carry out their missionary goals around here.


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## Storm Force

This facination with Israel ??????????????

Is it something to do with the fact that they have KICK *** military 

Awesome weapons and training 

And happen to be INDIA,s biggest Arms supplier after Russia !!!!!! 

If Israel had no military power no arms and where a weak nations would pakistanis STILL HAVE THIS THREAD OPEN ???????

Are pakistanis AFRAID of the indo/israeli military nexus ????


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## Awesome

Storm Force said:


> This facination with Israel ??????????????
> 
> Is it something to do with the fact that they have KICK *** military
> 
> Awesome weapons and training
> 
> And happen to be INDIA,s biggest Arms supplier after Russia !!!!!!
> 
> If Israel had no military power no arms and where a weak nations would pakistanis STILL HAVE THIS THREAD OPEN ???????
> 
> Are pakistanis AFRAID of the indo/israeli military nexus ????


No alliances, including India's are born without national interest. Don't pretend like you were born yesterday.


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## DesiGuy

mkiyani said:


> If your religion is not perfect.. its not Islam's faualt .. so stop talking about Islam coz u r not a professor of islam. Dont blame the action few muslim over whole islam... If u dont like it go to hell but stop talking about islam... dont try justify ur cause by bashing islam... I love islam and *I find it Perfect* so I dont care what u think about it respect all religion and I will respect ur religion...





hello, i did not say my religion is perfect or not perfect. 
read again, what i said. i used the word "if". 

exactly, that is one of biggest misconception. sorry, if it offend you.

but don't you think Muslims think too much about their religion, saying that their religion is perfect. 
i am not blaming Islam, but i do blame some Muslims, who says their religion is perfect. 
just like you said. 
making religion perfect is not just in your hands or mine.
if my, or your ancestors did something bad, neither u can change it nor me.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

^^
Though having ties with Israel could be benificial but i fail to understand what Israelis have through which Pakistan could bennifit ...a lobby in US?


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## Maddy2105

I don't think Israel would even be slightly interested in having ties with Pakistan.


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## r0ck

Storm Force said:


> This facination with Israel ??????????????
> 
> Is it something to do with the fact that they have KICK *** military
> 
> Awesome weapons and training
> 
> And happen to be INDIA,s biggest Arms supplier after Russia !!!!!!
> 
> If Israel had no military power no arms and where a weak nations would pakistanis STILL HAVE THIS THREAD OPEN ???????
> 
> Are pakistanis AFRAID of the indo/israeli military nexus ????





Asim Aquil said:


> No alliances, including India's are born without national interest. Don't pretend like you were born yesterday.



And just to add to this sighted post, As far as being 'Afraid of the indo/isralei military nexus' goes, 'the indo/isralei military nexus' has got way too much to lose than us.


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## Storm Force

The 3 different threads open on this forum about Israel or Israel and india. 

There seems to be an underlying admiration of Israeli power both in technology and their huge influence in USA.. 

I,m surprised about the level of debate and atitude towards Israel and its certainy centered around a REAL CONCERN re Israel/india military/political relationship... 

I think it was a very SMART MOVE by INDIA in 1990s


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## UchihaCG

ARSENAL6 said:


> Thats doesn't make someone a muslim !
> Although it is one of the minor characteristics but it doesn't differentiate it to a non-muslim.
> Keep your ideas to yourself UchihaCG



Exactly my point. It doesn't make someone a muslim..... i was complimenting his post about today's generation of Muslims.

Keep my ideas to myself? Is this forum only to praise the developmental failures of India and boast Islam?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

notorious ausiee said:


> [/B]
> 
> ok my friend in the previous post some pakistani friends called india poor and full of *** eating people. So can you explain me that pakistani people proclaimed that they are full of "dignity" and "proud" then why they always look here and there for the financial help? why they always wondering about free weapon from china or on easy installments? when pakistan ask for these kind of helps where there dignity hide? or they close there eyes and consider themselve as beggers for few minutes. i think pakistan is a great nation and they have to behave like what they think not like beggers.
> 
> please explain me your nature or stop calling other nations poor and hungry



I see you are new to Pakistan , back in 70's we had a industrial revolution in Pakistan sorta speak and there was a huge drive to move the industrial sector of pakistan , and as such we were on our way to becoming independent of the financial burden.

Unfortuately for us, thru no fault of our own, a war started to brew up in Afgaistan - 

This crippled our nation 

a) Our main democratically ellected leader was hanged and a leader was brougt in Mr Zia , and so our civil institues suffered tremedously , banking sector , financing and forige investment started to dwindle

We got 5-10 millio plus refugees who became dependent on Pakistan


b) Implosion of Guns culture and drug trade, made our streets 
dangerous. This gave rise to various social evils. 
Our Natioal Debt started to increase during this time...tremedously 

So , The thru reforms done durig 90's and 00 specially under 10 years with Musarif , we managed to reduce our national debts to 
*60 billion dollars*.

Now for past 10 years , again just when investment was on the high in Pakistan then another war started , which made secodary migration of Afghans to Pakistan and this time around , we also got Militants crossig into Pakista 

So its international community's responsibility - becasue , we are focused on our nation

If anyone wants to wage a war they should pay for the cost 

a) Cost associated with losses in Trade
b) Cost associated with life/ military loses

Pakistan is still doing quite well ... 


If Pakistan recieved weapos from China its strategic partership , and also we have solid strategic partership with US ....

Truth of fact is that Pakistan has always enjoyed great cooperation with most nations yet due to some radical elemets from Afghan war we have to suffer losses - so its interational commuity's responsibility to help rebuild , institutes and trade in our economy 

Hope that explain , we are not begging we just need a compensation for loses to our economy due to action of other nations


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## UchihaCG

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I see you are new to Pakistan , back in 70's we had a industrial revolution in Pakistan sorta speak and there was a huge drive to move the industrial sector of pakistan , and as such we were on our way to becoming independent of the financial burden.
> 
> Unfortuately for us, thru no fault of our own, a war started to brew up in Afgaistan -
> 
> This crippled our nation
> 
> a) Our main democratically ellected leader was hanged and a leader was brougt in Mr Zia , and so our civil institues suffered tremedously , banking sector , financing and forige investment started to dwindle
> 
> We got 5-10 millio plus refugees who became dependent on Pakistan
> 
> 
> b) Implosion of Guns culture and drug trade, made our streets
> dangerous. This gave rise to various social evils.
> Our Natioal Debt started to increase during this time...tremedously
> 
> So , The thru reforms done durig 90's and 00 specially under 10 years with Musarif , we managed to reduce our national debts to
> *60 billion dollars*.
> 
> Now for past 10 years , again just when investment was on the high in Pakistan then another war started , which made secodary migration of Afghans to Pakistan and this time around , we also got Militants crossig into Pakista
> 
> So its international community's responsibility - becasue , we are focused on our nation
> 
> If anyone wants to wage a war they should pay for the cost
> 
> a) Cost associated with losses in Trade
> b) Cost associated with life/ military loses
> 
> Pakistan is still doing quite well ...
> 
> 
> If Pakistan recieved weapos from China its strategic partership , and also we have solid strategic partership with US ....
> 
> Truth of fact is that Pakistan has always enjoyed great cooperation with most nations yet due to some radical elemets from Afghan war we have to suffer losses - so its interational commuity's responsibility to help rebuild , institutes and trade in our economy
> 
> Hope that explain , we are not begging we just need a compensation for loses to our economy due to action of other nations



Compensation from losses?????
This is the biggest joke in my life.



> a) Cost associated with losses in Trade
> b) Cost associated with life/ military loses


No one told you to accept the US's proposal for aid. You needed it, you wanted it, you took it.


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## TOPGUN

Maddy2105 said:


> I don't think Israel would even be slightly interested in having ties with Pakistan.



And perhaps likewise


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## Solomon2

The Strangely Parallel Careers of Israel and Pakistan
by P. R. Kumaraswamy
Middle East Quarterly
June 1997


> Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.
> -- Zia ul-Haq, Pakistan's ruler, December 1981



Pakistan and Israel share the unique heritage of having been created in the aftermath of World War II as religiously defined states. In each case, the new state emerged as the result of a twentieth-century ideological movement, came into existence accompanied by violence, and attracted a large immigrant population. Both met with initial rejection from religious elements who more recently, on second thought, aspired to gain political power. Despite these and many other similarities, the two states have hardly ever been compared...

With the single and marginal exception of the medieval Khazar kingdom, Jews were never sovereign after a.d. 70. In contrast, Muslims in India had a grand tradition of rule that began in the eleventh century and lasted until 1858 when India came under direct British rule. While Jews learned how to adapt to rule by others, Muslims always expected to be in charge. "The Muslims were, or had been, the ruling race. How could the former master now allow themselves to be ruled by ... slaves?"3 Statehood in the 1940s thus had very dissimilar meaning for the two: to the Zionists, it appeared as the only solution to two millennia of discrimination, destruction, and death; for the Muslim League, it offered a return to exclusive political power. This difference lives on, for while Israel actively seeks to be the homeland for its diaspora, Pakistan is even unwilling to absorb its own people stranded in Bangladesh following the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971...

*Israelis spend little time publicly discussing Pakistan but are favorably disposed toward the country.* The first known Zionist contacts with the Indian sub-continent were with Muslim League rather than Congress leaders: Chaim Weizman met Shaukat Ali in London in January 1931. Israel sees Pakistan as an important Islamic state, a key player in the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) and a country with nuclear capability. In the public sphere however, relations are not so good...
*
Pakistani leaders long placed themselves at the forefront of the "anti-Zionist" struggle and saw their commitment to the Palestinian cause as a way to display their Islamic credentials.* In 1947, Pakistan led Islamic opposition to the partition plan, and the passage of time only intensified this zeal...Conspiracy theories are often used in Pakistani public life to discredit political opponents as Zionist agents and spies; during the 1997 election campaign, some have charged that "Jewish money and power" is trying to influence and control Pakistan's domestic and foreign policies...

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## Mercenary

Israel being Pakistan's enemy is a pseudo-fantasy that Pakistanis engage in to make themselves feel more Arab. 

Pakistan should be like Turkey who has relations with Israel but pushes Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.

It was Pakistan who send Pilots against Israel in 1967 and 1973.

How many Arab pilots came to Pakistan to fight its wars with India in 1965 and 1971? NONE....

Time to get Pakistan's priority in high gear.

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## FreekiN

Mercenary said:


> Israel being Pakistan's enemy is a pseudo-fantasy that Pakistanis engage in to make themselves feel more Arab.
> 
> Pakistan should be like Turkey who has relations with Israel but pushes Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.
> 
> It was Pakistan who send Pilots against Israel in 1967 and 1973.
> 
> How many Arab pilots came to Pakistan to fight its wars with India in 1965 and 1971? NONE....
> 
> Time to get Pakistan's priority in high gear.



And how many did Pakistan shoot down? 19? And we didnt lose a single one of Syria's planes or any of our men. 

Syria on the other hand lost 400 of the same planes to the Israeli's without even shooting down one...


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## BrahmaChellaney

Mercenary said:


> Israel being Pakistan's enemy is a pseudo-fantasy that Pakistanis engage in to make themselves feel more Arab.
> 
> Pakistan should be like Turkey who has relations with Israel but pushes Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.
> 
> It was Pakistan who send Pilots against Israel in 1967 and 1973.
> 
> How many Arab pilots came to Pakistan to fight its wars with India in 1965 and 1971? NONE....
> 
> Time to get Pakistan's priority in high gear.



Well said. I think this should be the concluding remark for this thread.


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## Mercenary

FreekiN said:


> And how many did Pakistan shoot down? 19? And we didnt lose a single one of Syria's planes or any of our men.
> 
> Syria on the other hand lost 400 of the same planes to the Israeli's without even shooting down one...



You missed the point.

Its irrelevant how many aircraft we shot down. We made Israel our enemy out of solidarity with Arabs yet Arabs have never send troops to fight our wars with India and also have strengthened relations with India out of purely economic terms.

So why can't Pakistan act like a non-Arab Islamic State and have relations with Israel and yet pressure them to make peace much like Turkey.

Heck, even Egypt and Jordan have relations with Israel.

Why is Pakistan acting more Arab than the Arabs?

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## FreekiN

Mercenary said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> Its irrelevant how many aircraft we shot down. We made Israel our enemy out of solidarity with Arabs yet Arabs have never send troops to fight our wars with India and also have strengthened relations with India out of purely economic terms.
> 
> So why can't Pakistan act like a non-Arab Islamic State and have relations with Israel and yet pressure them to make peace much like Turkey.
> 
> Heck, even Egypt and Jordan have relations with Israel.
> 
> Why is Pakistan acting more Arab than the Arabs?



I know, i know, i just love to brag about that. xD


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## paritosh

Super Falcon said:


> indian boxers are joke just one win and they think they r best but truely they r nuts amir khan out of 21 fights won 20 is any indian have this type pf record if he is indian than he must be muslim as great mohammad ali was



dude unnecessary...
why do you just talk of boxers?take all athletic sports in consideration...and you'd realize that religion plays no role...the Israelis take home more medals than both India and Pakistan...
and you Amir Khan is a muslim rajput isnt he?


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## All-Green

UchihaCG said:


> Sir, if you by chance one of those 3 religions you put up were Islam, it would make your statement false.
> 
> 
> as i've already posted:
> 
> 
> There are many more in the Qur'an. Let's not waste bandwidth now
> 
> Cheating and Lying, Killing in Hadith's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, please don't post to me the verses in the Qur'an where is says befriend the non believers, treat the Jews equally..... because that's a definite contradiction from (your) God.
> 
> People come to argue, because these religions have differences...... they may have the same roots (excluding Islam) but even in the same religion; there are arguments (look where Christianity is...)
> 
> Just my opinion on this thread:
> You shouldn't be hating anyone because someone/something told you to hate.... Israel hasn't done anything to Pakistan.



Islam does not sanction unjust killing of anyone.

However if Allah asks his messenger to fight those rejecting the truth who ridicule His messenger and His message when the messenger himself is present amongst them, then that is something totally not applicable to current days...it is the Divine Will pertaining to certain groups whom the Divine knowledge of Allah judged at the time and whose treatment He instructed to his Prophet...all very specific to certain time, event and groups and not generic.

The hadeeth you narrated is false...to kill on basis of hair length...what to say to such nonsense.

Here i was trying to talk about contexts and many verses in Quran specific to certain events and certain groups of people who are not even existent anymore.
However you ignored it and deliberately post stuff you know nothing about except maybe a natural desire to demonize Islam.
I say Natural because you have mostly chosen to see the extremists and their version of Islam and based your judgment on what they preach about.
The fault is both theirs and yours, there are many excellent Indian Muslim scholars as well, why do you not see what they have to say?

If you want to understand better about the message of Islam you can PM me and i can give you some links which will help you truly understand the message which many ignorant people have clouded deliberately for sake of power and war mongering.

You my friend have the choice to at least understand what Islam is before condemning it based on the actions of those who have perverted it.
This is not a theological thread, however if you want P.M. me and i shall guide you to my capability.


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## Solomon2

Mercenary said:


> It was Pakistan who send Pilots against Israel in 1967 and 1973.





FreekiN said:


> And how many did Pakistan shoot down? 19? And we didnt lose a single one of Syria's planes or any of our men.


In 1967 the Arab goal wasn't defense, or even just plain conquest, but outright extermination of Israel's Jewish population; you only need examine the pre-war Arab newspapers and cartoons to acknowledge this. 

The Pakistani pilots who fought against Israel at the time knew this well. They were not _ordered_ to fight and had the opportunity to go home (and some did); _*they volunteered to be a part of another attempted genocide of the Jews.*_ And Pakistanis honor these men as heroes, yes?

In this light, isn't it remarkable that Israel has maintained a positive attitude towards Pakistan for sixty years, holding that Pakistanis are simply misguided and not inherently criminal?

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## pak-yes

> You missed the point.
> 
> Its irrelevant how many aircraft we shot down. We made Israel our enemy out of solidarity with Arabs yet Arabs have never send troops to fight our wars with India and also have strengthened relations with India out of purely economic terms.
> 
> So why can't Pakistan act like a non-Arab Islamic State and have relations with Israel and yet pressure them to make peace much like Turkey.
> 
> Heck, even Egypt and Jordan have relations with Israel.
> 
> Why is Pakistan acting more Arab than the Arabs?



Ok Arabs did wrong with us does this mean that we should also do wrong with them .If Arabs have established relations with Israel so we should also.It's a funny logic.You mean we should establish relationship with those who are responsible for the suffering of Palestinian people for the last 6 decades.Who that have turned gaza into the world's largest Prison.I saw a picture somewhere on this site of a burned body of a Palestinian Infant.And it was so horrible picture that many members were demanding it's removal and the banning of the one who posted it.Maybe you should also look at it.


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## Developereo

The Arab governments don't give a damn about the Palestinians.

Palestinians have rampant unemployment -- exceeding 75&#37; in some areas -- yet the oil rich Arab countries hire workers from Phillipines, Vietnam, India and elsewhere. Why can't they hire fellow Arab Palestinian workers instead?


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## Solomon2

> Why can't they hire fellow Arab Palestinian workers instead?


Because the Arab war on Israel is about securing the rule of Arab despots through war and conquest; the human suffering of Palestinians is just a form of cover. Ever watch a magic show? The magician succeeds because the audience has their eyes on the girl, not the magicians hands. This is the same thing, with dead and suffering humans taking the place of the girl.


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## macnurv

To all the respected members, please read this and remember. ISRAEL is not friend to any country on this planet, there mentality is simply us vs. them and them includes every one else. I would go on and on regarding why should Pakistan not recognize state of Israel as long as Palestinians are not given their due rights, but to begin with the whole existence of this oppressive murderous state is based on a biblical claim with no historical or archeological connection to the lands of Palestine. 
To better understand the Israeli mentality a good start would be reading "By way of Deception" by Victor Ostrovsky, a former mossad case officer or KATSA. Few people here might say its loads of bollocks but one must read truth between the lines. I have PDF version of that book if any one wants to read it I can provide the links.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

paritosh said:


> Amir Khan is a muslim rajput isnt he?



That makes him indian not to forget other muslim rajputs of PAKISTAN?


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## Solomon2

> please read this and remember. ISRAEL is not friend to any country on this planet -


No matter what the _facts _are, you just gotta _believe!_



> the whole existence of this oppressive murderous state is based on a biblical claim with no historical or archeological connection -


You appear to be poorly informed on these matters. 



> To better understand the Israeli mentality a good start would be reading "By way of Deception" by Victor Ostrovsky -


I have the very same book, it's a good read.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> In 1967 the Arab goal wasn't defense, or even just plain conquest, but outright extermination of Israel's Jewish population; you only need examine the pre-war Arab newspapers and cartoons to acknowledge this.
> 
> The Pakistani pilots who fought against Israel at the time knew this well. They were not _ordered_ to fight and had the opportunity to go home (and some did); _*they volunteered to be a part of another attempted genocide of the Jews.*_ And Pakistanis honor these men as heroes, yes?
> 
> In this light, isn't it remarkable that Israel has maintained a positive attitude towards Pakistan for sixty years, holding that Pakistanis are simply misguided and not inherently criminal?



Solomon i bet your jewish.
2)PAF pilot shot isreali bandits not some jew people.
3)Were you getting massive support from EU,UK,and USA?
4)Yeah we do honor them HONORABLE AND RESPECTED SOULS who fought for the rights of Muslim people.
5)Dont talk about extermination when the first organised israeli army was the one who MASSACRED an entire MUSLIM VILLAGE at TANTURA.


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## Solomon2

1) Yes, indeed. But I'm an American, not an Israeli.
2) Israel is a democracy, not a military dictatorship; its military aren't "bandits" in business to rob the weak.
3) In 1967 EU didn't exist, nor massive U.S. support, Israel didn't have much support from Britain, and France was switching to supporting the Arabs.
4) Actually, I do doubt that you "honor them HONORABLE AND RESPECTED SOULS who fought for the rights of Muslim people"; Israel offers greater civil rights for Arabs of any state, save perhaps today's Iraq.
5) There is enough manufactured or mis-characterized stuff out there about Israel already; why add to it? "After checking and re-checking the evidence, it is clear to me now, beyond any doubt, that there is no basis whatsoever for the allegation that the Alexandroni Brigade, or any other fighting unit of the Jewish forces, committed killing of people in Tantura after the village surrendered." link If Jews had concentrated their efforts on massacring the Muslim populace, how do you explain the fact that Israel hosts a substantial Arab and Muslim citizenry, or the continued existence and growth of the Arab and Muslim population in Gaza and the West Bank?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon read a book by MR. SYLVAIN CYPEL labelled WALLED israeli society at an impasse. May be you will see a reflection of your and your so called oppressed society. SHAME


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## Solomon2

Sylvain Cypel opposes Israel politically. But that ought not have stopped him from writing intelligently about Israeli society.

Unfortunately, this book is simply too misleading to be of much value. There's plenty of material. The reasoning, however, is uneven, with Israelis occasionally appearing to do manifestly counterproductive things for no reason at all. And many of the facts are simply wrong. Yes, there is ample ill will towards Israel, but that's not the main problem.

At one point, Cypel quotes Daniel Dor as saying "If there were a wholesale Israeli withdrawal" and "if a Truth and Reconciliation Commission were set up, people - a lot of them - would spontaneously begin to tell the truth."

Well, as we've seen, Israeli withdrawals have led to more violence and less truth. And I feel that if Israelis are ethnically cleansed from the West Bank, that probably won't help. On the other hand, I suspect that a genuine Truth and Reconciliation would help a great deal. After all, one of the big reasons that there's no peace is that many people simply are not exposing the barrage of ridiculous anti-Israeli lies we see at the UN, in some of the media, and in some of academia. If people did begin to tell the truth and report it, that could make an enormous difference. It is scary that Cypel appears to hope that such a Commission would instead come up with even more demonizing untruths. Cypel praises Ed Said's afactual nonsense, and he has plenty of criticism in this book for those who speak out in favor of what is best described as facts and reason.

Plenty of anti-Israeli propaganda simply amounts to arbitrary demonization. Yet Cypel does not tend to speak out against such propaganda, and at times merely repeats it. Maybe the worst example is the long discussion of Tantura. That's something I would stay away from. At worst, Tantura is simply a blood libel against Israel. At the very best, it is a set of highly dubious accusations that are probably bogus. Surely, any statement of what one wants, and any argument about what needs to be done does not have to depend on material that is so highly suspect. And it makes me wonder why there is a tendency for some anti-Israeli authors to make great use of such accusations.

I think the reason is that lies sting more than truth. Even serious accusations sting less if they are true. That's because even the worst deeds, no matter how bad they may be, can simply be admitted and confessed to. And that's often the end of them. On the other hand, lies often appear to require a response. And that may be why those who wish to bait and taunt those they wish to oppose often stick with afactual libels.

In any case, Cypel put in plenty of work on this book, and perhaps we ought to leave it in the bookstores. I do not recommend it. 
link


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## Hammy007

at Mercenary

man you cannot get any worse than this, can u??

i think accepting israel is to let these zionists sully our land by letting them entering our pak land by letting these rats to start their massive mossad propaganda and to control and blackmail our authority. we already have enough od CIA already.

we are muslims and we dont want to beg no one least of all jews to support our defence by embracing their illegal existance


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## DESERT FIGHTER

And israeli a tiny nation fought arabs without US OR EU SUPPORT? WHAT A BLOODY JOKE 
Soloman what about the time when israeli forces let the christians massacre muslims in there presence and ok what about the present massacre of muslims in GAZA? you killed 1400 people how many of them were terrorists what about the use of white phosphorus?
Those who oppose unhumane acts of zoints isrealis are either fools or misleading while you guy can only exploite the HALLOCAUST to cover up those massacres that ANIMAL ISRAELIS COMMIT.
 SHAME ON THOSE WHO EXPLOITE TO COVER UP THERE ANIMAL MENTALITY AND FOR POLITICAL GAINS
WARNING ITS GRAPHIC




















Ehud barak compared israel as a villa in a jungle.
Many israeli leaders have a habit of using animal analogies;THE ARABS ARE PROLIFICATING JERUSALEM LIKE ANTS= FORMER sephardic grand rabbi Ovadia yossef in 20o1 during a sermon in tisha Bv
If u still cant see THE ANIMAL NATURE OF A ZOININST THATS A SHAME

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## Solomon2

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> And israeli a tiny nation fought arabs without US OR EU SUPPORT? WHAT A BLOODY JOKE


 For Arab leaders of the war, it was indeed a bloody joke played upon their subjects: link. To Israelis, of course, victory from the brink of certain destruction was a miracle. 



> Soloman what about the time when israeli forces...what about the present massacre of muslims...what about -


I've already disproved one such calumny that you presented as a fact. Why should the burden of proof continue to rest upon my shoulders rather than yours?

Oh, and I can do without the inflammatory war ****, thank you.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Solomon2 said:


> For Arab leaders of the war, it was indeed a bloody joke played upon their subjects: link.
> I've already disproved one such calumny that you presented as a fact. Why should the burden of proof continue to rest upon my shoulders rather than yours?
> 
> Oh, and I can do without the inflammatory war ****, thank you.



Proof do you have any proof of HALLOCAUST that 6 million jews died?except a jew old ones telling tale of how germans exterminted people?
*WELL THE VULGAR WORD YOU USED FOR INNOCENT THAT SOME BA....DS KILLED IS A SHAME.
BUT STILL ITS IN YOUR MENTALITY.*
May ALLAH ALMIGHTY show you the true part and help unfold the ZOINIST BINDFOLD from your eyes AMEEN.


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## Solomon2

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Proof do you have any proof of HALLOCAUST that 6 million jews died? except a jew old ones telling tale of how germans exterminted people?


You are now wayyy off-topic so I refer you to this thread.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Why dont like the taste of your own medicine?


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## Mercenary

mech-e said:


> at Mercenary
> 
> man you cannot get any worse than this, can u??
> 
> i think accepting israel is to let these zionists sully our land by letting them entering our pak land by letting these rats to start their massive mossad propaganda and to control and blackmail our authority. we already have enough od CIA already.
> 
> we are muslims and we dont want to beg no one least of all jews to support our defence by embracing their illegal existance



So Zionists are running all over Egypt, Jordan, Turkey?


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## Mercenary

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Proof do you have any proof of HALLOCAUST that 6 million jews died?except a jew old ones telling tale of how germans exterminted people?
> *WELL THE VULGAR WORD YOU USED FOR INNOCENT THAT SOME BA....DS KILLED IS A SHAME.
> BUT STILL ITS IN YOUR MENTALITY.*
> May ALLAH ALMIGHTY show you the true part and help unfold the ZOINIST BINDFOLD from your eyes AMEEN.



Pakistani Nationalist you are acting like a Pakistani Idiot.

The holocaust is the most documented event in history. The Germans kept meticulous records of whom they killed. If you had any guts you could actually go to Poland and see the death camps yourself and see the evidence.

Your denial of the holocaust only shows your lack of intellect and able to process simple facts and paint everything in a conspiracy nonsense.

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## ptldM3

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Proof do you have any proof of HALLOCAUST that 6 million jews died?
> 
> I will have to interrupt you. Firstly, the hallocaust is one of the most documented events in history, do a quick search and you will find video and pictures of jews being throw in mass graves, shot, hung, gased, thrown in incinerators, ect. Even the *Germans do not deny the Hallocaust*. PS i have family that served in WWII, all of te sick things the Germans did to Jews is thrue.

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## fhassan

Salaam

I think it's important for Muslims to read this article by Shaykh Hamzah Yusuf regarding the holocaust:

*Holocaust Denial Undermines Islam
By Shaykh Hamza Yusuf*
Zaytuna Institute & Academy

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## mughaljee

Mercenary said:


> Israel being Pakistan's enemy is a pseudo-fantasy that Pakistanis engage in to make themselves feel more Arab.
> 
> Pakistan should be like Turkey who has relations with Israel but pushes Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.
> 
> It was Pakistan who send Pilots against Israel in 1967 and 1973.
> 
> How many Arab pilots came to Pakistan to fight its wars with India in 1965 and 1971? NONE....
> 
> Time to get Pakistan's priority in high gear.


My dear Brother, 
I can understand your feeling, because u live outside pakistan, So what you are saying it may be right.
But , 
Isreal was, is , and will be our enemy.
Pakistan  Should careful.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I don't think the issue of Israel is really that important for Pakistan's national interest. 

Perhaps for a more global harmony its an issue as it fuels , Al Qaida but in general Israel , Jewish people do have certain right to live in that land with , Palestinians

Infact 

a) Christians b) Muslims c) Jews 

Should all share the region with United Nation Police controlling the Holy City 
and Two seperate states exist for Jews and Palestine 

With a Peace treaty for 50 years in place no war - 

The problem right now is , that there is no land for Palestinians where they can , live peacefully and that is where the problem lies, its a realtistic real estate issue , and United Nation can solve it provided that all the global powers can sit down and chart down the main points instead of Veto on resolutions

Does that involve Pakistan , no - so with that in prespective , its a no issue. 


Reality: 
Middle East Whole Middle east , was created, when the leaders of that regions signed a pact with British armies to help them revolt vs 
Ottoman Empire , and as a reward they were given barren , desert/oassis lands as gift. (Unkowningly it had oil). 

But those are realities, some where down the line "some" people , made this an issue of Pakistani people - when we are like 9000 milies + away from Israel. 

And we have a moral understanding similar to what United Nation has on the Palestinian Issue , that its an issue which needs resolve.

What we need is dialogue with Israel , to sit down and discuss the issue of Palestine together with global community and resolve these political issues rather then engage in proxy situation


a) I agree Pakistan's own priorities should be first 
b) Asian regional Priorities should be next 

Mean while , we sould definitly keep the doors of dialogs opened 

a) Egypt has full ties with Israel , they are part of Arab council 
b) Jordan has full ties with Israel , they are part of Arab council 
c) Lebnoon has some communications
d) Turkey has full ties with Israel 

So - its only logical , we should engage in dialog frist , and then discuss ways to improve conditions for Palestinians - and gradually a free land for Palestine


Realities: 

a) Dialoug is Needed
b) Palestinian State is needed

a) So its like chicken came frist or the egg situation - if you think about it - but either 
way 

b) We need a brave leader like Musharif to enage Israel , and develop diplomatic ties
Similar to NATO Meanwhile we should also get in defensive , contracts with whole 
Middle east - so there is no backlash against peace with Israel


Also - Pakistan traditionally has ALWAYS had a forigne policy of dialog even with India - so its only natural we engage all nations - and try to move forward

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## Abu Zolfiqar

we have no beef with israel......we shouldnt worry about them

Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam, and we are very patriotic and protective about our country.

Are we hypocrites if we say that the Jews dont deserve their own homeland? Of course we can (rightly) argue that the zionist ideology is racism mixed with nationalism ---but if you read the Talmud you will know that zionist-fascism is against the teachings of Judaism.


in other words, I dont want to see my own comrades degrading themselves by insulting Jews or Jewish religion. It is wrong, and it shows bad taste. We are educated people here.


I am against the violent practices and collective punishment and torture that has been utilized by the israelis against Palestinians.

But this isnt our war. We have our own problems. Forget about the israelis.

We sent our pilots in 67 and 73 as a good cause, and they did damn well. We have been confronted by israeli politicians and figureheads openly making hostile statements against Pakistan and her nuclear capability

but on the aggregate --we should not waste our time with them. They represent no threat to us; israel is a tiny tiny country. 

If Pakistan wasnt facing the social and security issues confronting us, we could have played a positive role model for all Muslim countries --like Turkey and Malaysia. This is my dream for Pakistan. And to do that, you have to be pragmatic and not let emotions or intolerance take over your decisions. 


No, our threats are a lot closer to home unfortunately. We have a large and increasingly hostile enemy to the east; and a porous border with a war-torn Afghanistan to the north.


lets take care of these problems first.







p.s. I support a 2 state solution. 1967 borders, and Jerusalem jointly owned by both israel and Palestine.....it would be a district with no apartheid practices. Unfortunately, israel continues to arm itself and blockade Gaza and even portions of West Bank. Obama and Hillary Clinton have so far failed to keep their promises

all illegal land and settlements constructed should be surrendered









(not gonna happen )

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Plus the MAIN issue is 

"Piyasa Ku-ein ke pass ata hai , not the other way around" 


If the countries in the region need Pakistan to Lead discussion on Peace efforts since we are a Nuclear Nation and strongest army/navu/airforce

a) Give us Leadership Authority
b) Sign peace treates with Pakistan (Like Nato)
c) Support our Armed wing and have cooperation on all Military level

how many Arab countries gave us 10-20 billion dollars to grow our aeronutical complex
how many arabs placed orders for Al Khalid tank
How many arabs , invested in our indurstry , we are talking about 5-10 billion dollar investment ?? 

Arabs can openly invest 100 billion in disney land in France etc but they won't purchase anything from us they will always go to Britain to buy items which may be lower quality too.

When Arabs themseleves have no strategic planning , why do we have to take up the "theeka of fixing their problems" - point to be noted ...

China invests billions in our country , how many arab countries have invested billions in our economy , civil sector, mobile , telecom 

There is some recent movement but still long long long way to go 

Then we can spend our time to Lead Peace effrots ...

We are just wasting our time trying to be Hero , when we are like 10,000 miles away from that geographical area, and the actual countries in that reagion have peace treates for 30 years with Israel , and they are enjoying economic benefits

Also , why don't we invite any palestinians and settle them in a province ??? 

We can't even settle our own , old Bangali , Pakistani back in our provinces becasue all provinces don't want to take 4-10 million people coming in from camps in Bangladesh -
(This is a very dark element of our history that we are not taught in our schools) 

So I rest my case for me , I want to see Pakistanis left behind , come back home to Pakistan who are in Bangladesh camps since 70's

If that is not possible at least have peace with other natio and solve one issue, in process - 

We have lack of strategic thinkers in our nation who look far



With that stated , sure some ppl posted some videos forum about killing and murders, but if we have peace then the murders and killings will automatically stop - but we need to have peace first ... otherwise the sad state of Palestine will remain and the conflict will continue


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## Abu Zolfiqar

that is why i said...

it is NOT our war, man. Lets worry about ourselves first; It's one thing to be an activist and be productive

but im sick and tired of hearing the intolerance and the angry slogans....


Me personally, I'm a fan of the Turkish model. Strong private sector, strong state facilities and institutions, and most importantly --- fairly equal access to quality education all across the board.


i say these things --because we require introspection and self-correction first. Forget israeli vs. arabs.......that is their problem


our concern is Pakistan/Kashmir, and also political and economic stability in the region


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## pak-yes

Although I don't agree accepting Israel or any sort of dialogue with Israel as those Arabs who have done so for 30 years and nothing has been yielded so it's useless for dialogue with Israel.BUT BUT BUT we should NOT Poke our nose into Middle East affairs.We enough of our own problems.If not More Equal number of Pakistanis are being killed in violence as are Palestinians.And i totally agree with AZADPAKISTAN2009 why should we care about any Arab issue anyway they don't care about us.They can give billions of dollars to west for the toys they don't even know how to use but they can't give us the funds required for the growth of our defense Industry.If they had even invested a little sum of 10 billion dollars in PAC it would be churning out ALLAH knows what things.But they didn't.They just like to throw their money away on some stupid but shiny things.They can invest and lose billions of dollars in west without a sign of anger.But they can't invest a little in their so called brotherly nation.They import labor from INDIA.Thus strengthening our Arch enemy.Those Arabs don't even care about the other Arabs(PALESTINIANS).But we should be different from those Arabs.We should give whatever we can spare to Palestinians regularly to stop them from starving.So we can show Palestinians that even if their Arabs stop helping them we Pakistanis being Muslims will be always at their back.


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## Choppers

Mercenary said:


> Israel being Pakistan's enemy is a pseudo-fantasy that Pakistanis engage in to make themselves feel more Arab.
> 
> Pakistan should be like Turkey who has relations with Israel but pushes Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.
> 
> It was Pakistan who send Pilots against Israel in 1967 and 1973.
> 
> How many Arab pilots came to Pakistan to fight its wars with India in 1965 and 1971? NONE....
> 
> Time to get Pakistan's priority in high gear.



A very Realistic view..But many Pakistanis here think that it is their responsibility to help arabs and fight against Israel.


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## Mercenary

Choppers said:


> A very Realistic view..But many Pakistanis here think that it is their responsibility to help arabs and fight against Israel.



And besides Hamas and Hezbollah, which Arab countries are actually fighting Israel?

No Arab country is going to war with Israel. It would mean heavy military losses, economic sanctions imposed by USA, a possible overthrow of the government by Islamic Radicals.

The only country that loses not establishing relations with Israel is Pakistan. As Israel continues to send more sophisticated weaponry to the Indians which impedes our defenses.

Pakistan needs to think about its own well being instead of thinking that by having a nuclear weapon it somehow became the leader of the Islamic World.

Not a single Muslim country thinks of Pakistan as being a leader of the Islamic World. That has been either Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or even Iran.

Pakistan is relegated to the 2nd tier of Muslim power along with Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc.

Too bad Pakistanis don't realize this.

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## Developereo

Mercenary said:


> And besides Hamas and Hezbollah, which Arab countries are actually fighting Israel?



No question there; the Arab governments are two-faced liars. They don't give a damn about the Palestinians, even though popular Arab public opinion is sympathetic to their cause. That's why half of Ahmedinijad's bluster is aimed at the Arab streets. He is arguably more popular there than their local despot.



Mercenary said:


> No Arab country is going to war with Israel. It would mean heavy military losses, economic sanctions imposed by USA, a possible overthrow of the government by Islamic Radicals.



Possibly, and it may pave the way for actual democracy down the line, which would be anathema for Israel and the US. Even now the US pays $2 billion/year to their thug Hosni Mubarak to quash democracy and keep Egypt in check.



Mercenary said:


> The only country that loses not establishing relations with Israel is Pakistan. As Israel continues to send more sophisticated weaponry to the Indians which impedes our defenses.



First of all, our decision should be based on moral principles, not material gain.

But, in any case, aside from the fact that a Pakistani government recognition of Israel would be meaningless, given the overwhelming contempt for Israel in the public at large, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by such an act. What exactly have the other Muslim countries gained by recognizing Israel?

It will have zero impact on the Indian-Israeli military cooperation; neither will it dampen the anti-Pakistan machinations of the pro-Israeli lobbies worldwide (not least as a favor to their ally India); and it will not win us any friends in the Muslim world.

There are, on the other hand, significant downsides. Besides feeling dirty for selling our soul for profit, we will alienate many ordinary Muslims around the world. Even Turkey is pulling back from its cozy relationship with Israel and asserting a principled stance on Israel abuses.



Mercenary said:


> Pakistan needs to think about its own well being instead of thinking that by having a nuclear weapon it somehow became the leader of the Islamic World.
> 
> Not a single Muslim country thinks of Pakistan as being a leader of the Islamic World. That has been either Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or even Iran.
> 
> Pakistan is relegated to the 2nd tier of Muslim power along with Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc.
> 
> Too bad Pakistanis don't realize this.



Agree with this part. We should focus on our own well being and enhancing our strengths instead of being the Islamic policeman around the world. This doesn't mean abandoning the Palestinian cause -- we will never do that -- but it does mean we need to understand that we can help Palestinians (and Muslims in general) better if we are an economically, technologically and militarily strong country. We need to build this economic/technological strength even to enhance our bargaining position in the Kashmir struggle against India.

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## Choppers

Mercenary said:


> And besides Hamas and Hezbollah, which Arab countries are actually fighting Israel?
> 
> No Arab country is going to war with Israel. It would mean heavy military losses, economic sanctions imposed by USA, a possible overthrow of the government by Islamic Radicals.
> 
> The only country that loses not establishing relations with Israel is Pakistan. As Israel continues to send more sophisticated weaponry to the Indians which impedes our defenses.
> 
> Pakistan needs to think about its own well being instead of thinking that by having a nuclear weapon it somehow became the leader of the Islamic World.
> 
> Not a single Muslim country thinks of Pakistan as being a leader of the Islamic World. That has been either Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or even Iran.
> 
> Pakistan is relegated to the 2nd tier of Muslim power along with Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc.
> 
> Too bad Pakistanis don't realize this.



Spot On.Most Pakistanis dont realise that they are made scapegoats and is being used by both West and Arab countries.

This is nothing but an outcome of countless conspiracy theories being churned out by mullahs and consumed by the general masses.

Unless the public does not awaken pakistan will always be fighting these proxy wars.


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## paritosh

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> That makes him indian not to forget other muslim rajputs of PAKISTAN?



well...somebody said that the "muslim khan would whoop any hindu boxer's a$$"
the forget that many Pakistanis have descended from hindus...just like your qaid...religions don't help your style.


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## waraich66

Mercenary said:


> And besides Hamas and Hezbollah, which Arab countries are actually fighting Israel?
> 
> No Arab country is going to war with Israel. It would mean heavy military losses, economic sanctions imposed by USA, a possible overthrow of the government by Islamic Radicals.
> 
> The only country that loses not establishing relations with Israel is Pakistan. As Israel continues to send more sophisticated weaponry to the Indians which impedes our defenses.
> 
> Pakistan needs to think about its own well being instead of thinking that by having a nuclear weapon it somehow became the leader of the Islamic World.
> 
> Not a single Muslim country thinks of Pakistan as being a leader of the Islamic World. That has been either Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or even Iran.
> 
> Pakistan is relegated to the 2nd tier of Muslim power along with Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, etc.
> 
> Too bad Pakistanis don't realize this.



Arabs(GCC) helped Pakistan to get nuke technology financially , Pakistan could not by pass them at any case .

Pakistan and GCC have defence agreements and thousand of our serving and retired army personal serving their forces.

Pakistan have advantage of oil supply and now KSA and UAE intrested to invest in infrastructure projects ie KESC is currently operated by UAE based company.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Choppers said:


> A very Realistic view..But many Pakistanis here think that it is their responsibility to help arabs and fight against Israel.



has nothing to do with Arabs, it has to do with helping Muslims; and you can see that even here people are mixed about the issue

so don't fall victim to this indian habit of generalizing everything.

It is no doubt that israelis are arming you indians (our enemy), so that is a bone of contention. But we don't have any actual beef against israel, apart from the fact that they are responsible for the killing of many Palestinians (and Lebanese). But that isnt just our responsibility to voice our disapproval --it is responsibility of the world.

more and more people are realizing that israel's policy of settlement building and displacing indigenous Palestinians will only lead to more resentment; and israel will never see genuine peace until they get out of their denial.


thanks.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

paritosh said:


> well...somebody said that the "muslim khan would whoop any hindu boxer's a$$"
> the forget that many Pakistanis have descended from hindus...just like your qaid...religions don't help your style.



that's the beauty of it, that people saw the light in Islam.

lower caste hindus under discrimination embraced Islam, while even influential people like Jinnah's distant ancestors embraced the same religion. It shows that Islam was a religion that never discriminated along caste or economic lines.

Partition is something every man woman and child of Pakistan is proud of; and also of our Qaid-e-Azam, father of the nation.



as for the boxer -- we'll see who delivers. Amir Khan is rapidly rising to the top, a lot of people are talking about him now. 

76 second KO....salita ko nani yaad ayi i think 





p.s. totally off-topic, but worth the read

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...iting+central+african+boxers+to+embrace+islam


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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> more and more people are realizing that israel's policy of settlement building and displacing indigenous Palestinians will only lead to more resentment; and israel will never see genuine peace until they get out of their denial.


I do not recall any Arab or Muslim raising their voice to protest the expulsion of "indigenous" Jews from the "Arab" lands of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, etc. in the aftermath of their failed wars or as a result of tyrannical rule. In your view, were the Jews of these lands supposed to rise in arms to protest, rather than depart in peace and re-settle elsewhere? And where else could these Jews go other than Israel? 

In my opinion, Israel will never see genuine peace until its neighbors are willing to discuss not only how small Israel should be, but how big Israel should be as well. Remember, Israel is only 11,000 square miles if you include the Golan, West Bank, and Gaza, whereas the lands dominated by Arabs (where Jews lived before they were kicked out) currently total about five hundred times greater. (The original League of Nations plan for a Jewish homeland included Jordan, too.) 

If the end of all discussions is Israel's elimination from the map then that is expulsion or extermination; why should Jews embrace such a "peace"? And why, if there is no acknowledgment by Arabs of the crimes committed against Jews in the name of Arabs, would any peace endure? Wouldn't we just see a new generation, schooled in ignorance and hatred, reared for future conflicts with the Jewish State?

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Solomon2 said:


> I do not recall any Arab or Muslim raising their voice to protest the expulsion of "indigenous" Jews from the "Arab" lands of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, etc. in the aftermath of their failed wars or as a result of tyrannical rule. In your view, were the Jews of these lands supposed to rise in arms to protest, rather than depart in peace and re-settle elsewhere? And where else could these Jews go other than Israel?



just after holocaust, many jews in fact fled to these areas...especially Sephardics. Look at Jews in Iran for example.



> In my opinion, Israel will never see genuine peace until its neighbors are willing to discuss not only how small Israel should be, but how big Israel should be as well.



it should have been eastern european countries, since that is where many of these Jews were living and eventually exiled from and/or killed

now that the Jews are already in Middle East, they cant be told to just disappear. Some settlement will have to be reached. But it is made difficult when zionists bulldoze their homes and livelihood





> Remember, Israel is only 11,000 square miles if you include the Golan, West Bank, and Gaza, whereas the lands dominated by Arabs (where Jews lived before they were kicked out) currently total about five hundred times greater.



Golan Heights belongs to Syria.

and it is Palestinian Arabs who were being kicked out of their homes....there are many people who still have the deeds to their old properties




> And why, if there is no acknowledgment by Arabs of the crimes committed against Jews in the name of Arabs, would any peace endure?



compare the death tolls, compare the destruction of private property




> Wouldn't we just see a new generation, schooled in ignorance and hatred, reared for future conflicts with the Jewish State?



you act as if israel is innocent, hasnt broken any international laws, hasnt caused great grief to many of her neighbours


trust me, i dont act as if Palestinians (and southern Lebanese) also dont need to unite --and ensure that un-provoked rocket attacks end as well.

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## Solomon2

> it should have been eastern european countries, since that is where many of these Jews were living and eventually exiled from and/or killed


The Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east decades before that. For when the Ottoman, Russian, and Austro-Hungarian empires were broken up after WWI, it was recognized that these Empires were made possible by applying divide-and-rule to their mixed-up nationalities, so separating the peoples out into nation-states was the workable alternative. We now have decades upon decades of proof to show that this (plus democracy) is the best possible way to go to ensure peace.



> now that the Jews are already in Middle East, they cant be told to just disappear. Some settlement will have to be reached. But it is made difficult when zionists bulldoze their homes and livelihood


Difficult, or easier?



> now that the Jews are already in Middle East, they cant be told to just disappear...and it is Palestinian Arabs who were being kicked out of their homes.


Your acknowledgment of my point lasted about one breath, then your mind kicked back into Arabs-are-the-only-victims mode.



> you act as if israel is innocent, hasnt broken any international laws, hasnt caused great grief to many of her neighbours


Israel's first foreign minister, Moshe Sharett, sometimes acknowledged the Palestinian Arab tragedy as "the small injustice" compared to "the large injustice" of the Jewish Holocaust and the wishes of so many Arabs to complete the Nazi's most enduring project. 

Israelis are quite aware of many Arab griefs - but they know that all too often they aren't the cause. Even many Arabs know:


> It is true that the people of Gaza are suffering, but supporting Hamas financially will do nothing more than increase the suffering of the Palestinian cause as a whole. link


Furthermore, when Israel is cited repeatedly, over and over, as the ONLY cause - or even the only POSSIBLE cause for the world's ills, then that's an illness that needs some sort of antidote, don't you think? What would the world be like if Muslims woke up every morning and asked _themselves_ what _we_ did to make the world a worse place and what _we_ can do to fix things?


> i dont act as if Palestinians (and southern Lebanese) also dont need to unite --and ensure that un-provoked rocket attacks end as well.


Did you ask yourself why these groups should have rockets at all? After all, Hezbollah and Hamas brag that they are not for defense, but for the purposes of terror and conquest.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I dont think so. Hezb and Hamas are mainstream. HAMAS is chosen to lead in Gaza Strip, Hezbollah has many seats in Lebanese parliament.


who told you "Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east" ??

and when was this?


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## pak-yes

> who told you "Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east" ??
> 
> and when was this?



I think he has turned his own opinion into facts

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## FreekiN

Couldn't the Arabs just sanction America? lol that would be pretty epic. It would mean chaos lawl


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## ARSENAL6

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I don't think the issue of Israel is really that important for Pakistan's national interest.
> 
> Perhaps for a more global harmony its an issue as it fuels , Al Qaida but in general Israel , Jewish people do have certain right to live in that land with , Palestinians
> 
> Infact
> 
> a) Christians b) Muslims c) Jews
> 
> [



AZADPAKISTAN2009
nobody agued about jewish poeple living on the lands. Jewish people were living there even when muslim were there.
Its the extermination done by Zionist in Israel on Palisteins that causes this war and hatred against them.
Had they not cause this then we wouldn't have these problems.
The hatred against jews stared recently ie in the 60s.


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> The Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east decades before that.



The Zionists approached the Ottoman Emperor for a Jewish homeland in Palestine and were refused. At this point, they moved to Plan B, which used clandestine migration and Western colonialism to achieve their goals.

The British actually promised the Arabs a pan-Arab homeland if they rebelled against the Ottoman rulers. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, they promised the Jews a homeland in Palestine.

After the WW2, the US was promoting a stance of self-determination for erstwhile colonial subjects, except in the Middle East, where they specifically exempted the British and the French to carve it up between themselves, and hand over a chunk to create Israel.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Developereo said:


> The Zionists approached the Ottoman Emperor for a Jewish homeland in Palestine and were refused. At this point, they moved to Plan B, which used clandestine migration and Western colonialism to achieve their goals.
> 
> The British actually promised the Arabs a pan-Arab homeland if they rebelled against the Ottoman rulers. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, they promised the Jews a homeland in Palestine.
> 
> After the WW2, the US was promoting a stance of self-determination for erstwhile colonial subjects, except in the Middle East, where they specifically exempted the British and the French to carve it up between themselves, and hand over a chunk to create Israel.



If Mecca was ever not in control of Muslims , I am sure we would be going to every one to ask permission to live in Mecca , am I correct so why are jewish people wrong to live in the land that is center of their faith - 

Now is the killing of Innocent ppl via WEAPONS , BOMBS fair NO ... and that is where UN has to step up and people who believe in peace should team up to resolve the issue
fighter planes vs civilians or suicide bombing are both an evil curse


Well , I think - the process should be

Peace , thru dialog - 

There are alot of people on Israel side as well who want Peace and also alot of Jews in US and other parts of world who do not feel that 
Violence , and denial of civil rights is the solution

So we need to engage with those people. 

The political Wing/Army of Israel is not really what every Israeli person thinks like , there are alot of people who go in Palestine and help out as well , and alot of Jews who actively , participate in stance with Palestinians cause , so I think people need to really be realistic.

And not judge every one based on action of few in places of power

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## gambit

FreekiN said:


> Couldn't the Arabs just sanction America? lol that would be pretty epic. It would mean chaos lawl


Sanction US with what? Oil?



You need to check a bit on history. To punish US for supporting Israel, the Saudis reduced their oil outputs by merely about %5. It created fuel rationing in the US but also prompted US to improve our fuel usage efficiencies. In the end, the 1970s 'oil embargo' was a bust. It hurt the Saudis more than US. It made no statement other than the fact that the ME is just as much dependent upon the oil importing world as we are dependent upon their oil export.

The downside lesson of the whole affair is that *WHEN*, not if, the US no longer depends on the ME for oil, and most of our oil import are from non-ME sources anyway, the Arabs will have nothing to fall back upon. No natively run industry like auto or semiconductor manufacturing to support the sheiks' high living. If Pakistan is smart, current or future generation of leaders, Pakistan should politically move away from the ME and its shortsighted culture and politics. The Arabs have nothing to offer Pakistan other than to embroil you in the Israelis-Palestinians conflict for their own gains. Like it or not, this is about Pakistan first and being a muslim second.

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## FreekiN

gambit said:


> Sanction US with what? Oil?
> 
> 
> 
> You need to check a bit on history. To punish US for supporting Israel, the Saudis reduced their oil outputs by merely about %5. It created fuel rationing in the US but also prompted US to improve our fuel usage efficiencies. In the end, the 1970s 'oil embargo' was a bust. It hurt the Saudis more than US. It made no statement other than the fact that the ME is just as much dependent upon the oil importing world as we are dependent upon their oil export.
> 
> The downside lesson of the whole affair is that *WHEN*, not if, the US no longer depends on the ME for oil, and most of our oil import are from non-ME sources anyway, the Arabs will have nothing to fall back upon. No natively run industry like auto or semiconductor manufacturing to support the sheiks' high living. If Pakistan is smart, current or future generation of leaders, Pakistan should politically move away from the ME and its shortsighted culture and politics. The Arabs have nothing to offer Pakistan other than to embroil you in the Israelis-Palestinians conflict for their own gains. Like it or not, this is about Pakistan first and being a muslim second.



Yeah yeah.. but still 'if' it happened it would still mean chaos xD


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## Developereo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> If Mecca was ever not in control of Muslims , I am sure we would be going to every one to ask permission to live in Mecca , am I correct so why are jewish people wrong to live in the land that is center of their faith -



There is no God given right to live in the land of your faith, and it certainly is no excuse to terrorize people out of their homes and kill them because they are of the 'wrong' religion. If that were true, then the Vatican should relocate to Bethlehem and belong to Christians.

*Secular law does not subordinate to people's religious wishes.*

The Jewish people did not originate in Israel. The ancient Hebrews invaded Canaan, massacred the people, and took over their land to form Israel. They, in turn, were kicked out by the Romans and the Arabs took over in the intervening centuries. In the twentieth century, the modern state of Israel was created by the force of Western weapons.

There is no legitimacy involved here, except the one gained at gunpoint.


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## ice_man

gambit said:


> Sanction US with what? Oil?
> 
> 
> 
> You need to check a bit on history. To punish US for supporting Israel, the Saudis reduced their oil outputs by merely about %5. It created fuel rationing in the US but also prompted US to improve our fuel usage efficiencies. In the end, the 1970s 'oil embargo' was a bust. It hurt the Saudis more than US. It made no statement other than the fact that the ME is just as much dependent upon the oil importing world as we are dependent upon their oil export.
> 
> The downside lesson of the whole affair is that *WHEN*, not if, the US no longer depends on the ME for oil, and most of our oil import are from non-ME sources anyway, the Arabs will have nothing to fall back upon. No natively run industry like auto or semiconductor manufacturing to support the sheiks' high living. If Pakistan is smart, current or future generation of leaders, Pakistan should politically move away from the ME and its shortsighted culture and politics. The Arabs have nothing to offer Pakistan other than to embroil you in the Israelis-Palestinians conflict for their own gains. Like it or not, this is about Pakistan first and being a muslim second.



partly you are correct in the fact that oil embargo was a bust! but then again it wasn't planned well! & US till today buys MOST OF ITS OIL FROM THE ME! SAUDI is its biggest supplier! 

so yes the arabs are dumb not to spend on developing local industry but then again one day they might wake up and realize....the power they can excercise!


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## gambit

ice_man said:


> partly you are correct in the fact that oil embargo was a bust! but then again it wasn't planned well! & *US till today buys MOST OF ITS OIL FROM THE ME! SAUDI is its biggest supplier! *


Really?









ice_man said:


> so yes the arabs are dumb not to spend on developing local industry but then again one day they might wake up and realize....the power they can excercise!


Might? The Arabs are doing *EXACTLY* what I advised Pakistan to do...Put country's self interests first. Why do you think that despite all the noise about muslim unity and Western colonialism and blah...blah...blah...yadda...yadda...yadda...Their OPEC cartel have been powerless all these years to do anything beyond setting prices? Oil is their countries' self interests. What are Pakistan's? The Palestinians' welfare?


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## mughaljee

gambit /-

Your time is right , 
but 
it's not mean you are right.


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## Solomon2

pak-yes said:


> I think he has turned his own opinion into facts





Developereo said:


> The British actually promised the Arabs a pan-Arab homeland if they rebelled against the Ottoman rulers. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, they promised the Jews a homeland in Palestine.





Abu Zolfiqar said:


> who told you "Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east" ?? and when was this?



Article 95 of the Treaty of Sevres, which ended WWI between the Ottomans and the Allies: 



> The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. *The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, [The Balfour Declaration] by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.*








You did not know history from this basic starting point. So why do you think your judgments are valid? Did you learn it in school? On TV? From your local imam? Your family? At university?


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## pak-yes

Mr Palestinians people didn't promise Jews to give Palestine .So by putting these maps you are negating yourself.British Promised them not muslims . you are showing these maps to us as if we had promised them.The Allied had won the war they could write whatever they want in those stupid treaties.It doesn't mean that we endorse them.


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## Solomon2

Pak-yes, answer the charge you leveled at me: did I "turn my own opinion into fact", yes or no?


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## pak-yes

well when you said that Jews were promised homeland you should also had backed it up with evidence.That way i would not had the chance of saying anything.And now that i have answered your question answer mine.


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## Solomon2

Try harder, pak-yes.


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## pak-yes

Come on Man don't play games with me answer my question.if you can.


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## Solomon2

Am I wrong to think that I'm owed a clear acknowledgment or apology here?

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## pak-yes

For what? you posted in the previous page


> The Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east decades before that. For when the Ottoman, Russian, and Austro-Hungarian empires were broken up after WWI, it was recognized that these Empires were made possible by applying divide-and-rule to their mixed-up nationalities, so separating the peoples out into nation-states was the workable alternative. We now have decades upon decades of proof to show that this (plus democracy) is the best possible way to go to ensure peace.



All i am saying that when you said"The Jews were promised a homeland in the middle east decades before that" it was your duty to provide


> The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, [The Balfour Declaration] by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.



this within that post not after sometime.As you didn't provided proof at that time so i was right to say that it was your personal opinion.It isn't my fault that you posted your material after sometime.And now i think i have clarified myself answer my question.


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## Solomon2

Not that. Two things: One, you didn't answer how you learned what you previously thought was fact, and two, you didn't actually ask me a question!


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## pak-yes

> One, you didn't answer how you learned what you previously thought was fact



??????????????.



> Mr Palestinians people didn't promise Jews to give Palestine .So by putting these maps you are negating yourself.British Promised them not muslims . you are showing these maps to us as if we had promised them.The Allied had won the war they could write whatever they want in those stupid treaties.It doesn't mean that we endorse them.



Ok now consider it a question.And one final thing I don't know what time is it in America but here in Pakistan it is 2 A.M.I am only logged in awaiting your answer so if you don't wanna answer it just tell me.I can't remain awake to play your games.


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## Solomon2

Understood. A treaty always involves more than one party. The Sevres treaty was signed by the Ottomans, the dominant MUSLIM power of the area for centuries. So it was the Ottomans, a MUSLIM power, not just the British, who agreed that Palestine should be a Jewish homeland, along with agreeing that other bits they ruled should become Arab, Christian, Greek, etc. 

Furthermore, isn't the emphasis in Islam that Muslims (whether in Muslim or non-Muslim countries) should show cooperation with the governments of Islamic countries? link So who, exactly, was in the wrong when Arabs evicted Jews and other minorities out of whatever places they could following WWI?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

anyone who defends this "chosen land" notion is delusional, and needs to get his/her head examined

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## pak-yes

Sevres treaty.Come on it was not a agreement between two same level parties.
Ottomans were defeated in WW1.And Allies were the winners.so Ottomans had no choice other than accept the treaty.You put conditions when you are in dominant state not when you have been defeated and your country is under occupation.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

that is why Ataturk was very important for the birth of independent Turkey. But thats a whole other discussion.


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> that's the beauty of it, that people saw the light in Islam.
> 
> lower caste hindus under discrimination embraced Islam, while even influential people like Jinnah's distant ancestors embraced the same religion. It shows that Islam was a religion that never discriminated along caste or economic lines.
> 
> Partition is something every man woman and child of Pakistan is proud of; and also of our Qaid-e-Azam, father of the nation.
> 
> 
> 
> as for the boxer -- we'll see who delivers. Amir Khan is rapidly rising to the top, a lot of people are talking about him now.
> 
> 76 second KO....salita ko nani yaad ayi i think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. totally off-topic, but worth the read
> 
> DAWN.COM | Sport | Six visiting Central African boxers to embrace Islam



I personally am an admirer of Islam....but to say that a muslim boxer would be more able than a hindu boxer is just wrong.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

was that what I was implying?


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## ARSENAL6

paitosh what does boxer got to with anything ?


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## Solomon2

pak-yes said:


> Sevres treaty.Come on it was not a agreement between two same level parties.
> Ottomans were defeated in WW1.And Allies were the winners.so Ottomans had no choice other than accept the treaty.


Tell that to the British who were defeated by the Ottomans at Gallipolli.



> You put conditions when you are in dominant state not when you have been defeated and your country is under occupation.


No, there's more to it than that. For example, after Waterloo France was defeated and occupied; the victors still negotiated with the able Talleyrand for terms. Similarly, the Ottoman Empire made an agreement at Sevres and both the Empire and its ruling Caliphate survived the treaty - for a few more years, anyway, until Ataturk took over. The French and British wanted control in Syria and Palestine under a temporary Mandate, and the Ottoman Caliph didn't want to yield the entire Middle East to just _one_ of its many component nationalities.

Let's review. The notion that I've made up history has been trashed. It is accepted that at Sevres the Ottoman Empire agreed to the establishment of Palestine as a homeland for the Jewish people. So at that point Jews had no reason to feel that by voluntarily returning to The Land and lawfully leasing, renting, or purchasing property wherever they could was wrong, as such activity did not violate the civil and religious rights of the non-Jews of Palestine.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

what do you know about the battles fought by Ottomans?


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## paritosh

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> was that what I was implying?



no before you stepped-in the guy I was replying to meant exactly the same.
i am not into hindu-supremacy/muslim-supremacy $h!t...


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## paritosh

ARSENAL6 said:


> paitosh what does boxer got to with anything ?



that is what i thought...or maybe you dint read my posts...

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## ARSENAL6

paritosh said:


> that is what i thought...or maybe you dint read my posts...



Proberly - sorry


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## Super Falcon

lets come on topic rathar than on boxing dudes


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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> Article 95 of the Treaty of Sevres, which ended WWI between the Ottomans and the Allies:



Solomon,

The Balfour Declaration is far into the game; a LOT of history happened before the Balfour Declaration. I have already pointed you before to the BBC documentary (needs Real Player) which documents some of that history. It is a very well balanced documentary and actually has more pro-Israel interviewees than pro-Palestinian.

Promises and Betrayals:

If you are an open-minded Jew with conscience, you will understand after watching the documentary why so many people, including Jews, oppose Zionism and Israel. If you are a dyed-in-the-wool Zionist then, of course, no amount of facts will change your mind.



Solomon2 said:


> You did not know history from this basic starting point. So why do you think your judgments are valid? Did you learn it in school? On TV? From your local imam? Your family? At university?



Launching _ad hominems_ at people who disagree with you does not help your credibility. It seems you are the one who ignores uncomfortable aspects of history to suit your prejudice.

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## ARSENAL6

Developereo said:


> Solomon,
> 
> The Balfour Declaration is far into the game; a LOT of history happened before the Balfour Declaration. I have already pointed you before to the BBC documentary (needs Real Player) which documents some of that history. It is a very well balanced documentary and actually has more pro-Israel interviewees than pro-Palestinian.
> 
> Promises and Betrayals:
> 
> If you are an open-minded Jew with conscience, you will understand after watching the documentary why so many people, including Jews, oppose Zionism and Israel. If you are a dyed-in-the-wool Zionist then, of course, no amount of facts will change your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Launching _ad hominems_ at people who disagree with you does not help your credibility. It seems you are the one who ignores uncomfortable aspects of history to suit your prejudice.



To add to this
This Vid I found on youtube shows how the media in US fabricates facts inorder to get support on Isreal.
This is only a drop of what the Irsael-US war machine media does.

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## Solomon2

Developereo said:


> Solomon, the Balfour Declaration is far into the game; a LOT of history happened before the Balfour Declaration.


Of course. The Balfour Declaration AND its inclusion in the Treaty of S&#232;vres (and subsequent treaties) is a good starting point for those who dispute the modern legitimacy of the return of Jews to the Promised Land.



> I have already pointed you before to the BBC documentary (needs Real Player) which documents some of that history...If you are an open-minded Jew with conscience, you will understand after watching the documentary why so many people, including Jews, oppose Zionism and Israel.


If the video contains something of substance, why not write the salient points, proofs, and reasoning down here, rather than direct me to watch it? (Same goes for you, Arsenal6!)



> It is a very well balanced documentary and actually has more pro-Israel interviewees than pro-Palestinian.


As if "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestinian" are opposites! 

As reporters in D.C. will confess when you corner them, "balance" can have little to do with truth. ("If you want truth, see a priest" is one saying reporters have.) For Western reporters the important thing is to gain and keep sources so you can gain and keep the eyeballs that boost ratings and circulation. They think they'd lose both access to sources and viewers/readers if they broadcast/publish anything too pro-Israel - or too uncomfortable for their Arab and Muslim viewers. Balance is tilted away from Israel because the Arab and Muslim market is much bigger. 
The Arab and Muslim reporters I've talked to (including BBC) simply told me they conceived it their duty to be anti-Israel advocates. 



> If you are a dyed-in-the-wool Zionist then, of course, no amount of facts will change your mind.


Don't you think you're confusing the usual differences of opinion that exist in the West with the ironclad, black-and-white, proof of a written treaty?



> Launching _ad hominems_ at people who disagree with you does not help your credibility.


Questioning how people learned something is not a personal attack, but a process of discovery. Why do you claim otherwise?



> It seems you are the one who ignores uncomfortable aspects of history to suit your prejudice.


I exist in a culture with a lot of free inquiry. You've read a lot of what I write and you know I can find sources to back me up, both in print and on the Internet. 

On the other hand, in the opinion of the U.S. Library of Congress,


> Pakistan...faces a serious shortage of authorship in humanities, philosophy, psychology, logic and ethics. It is doubtful the current economic and political climate will foster serious scholarship in these areas


and that as far as history goes the shelves of serious bookshops are dominated by


> hagiographic accounts of the Prophet and the early Muslims, treatises on the ideological founders of Pakistan and the 'two-nation' theory link


This seems to be an apt description of an intellectual culture that "ignores uncomfortable aspects of history to suit prejudice", doesn't it? 

Can a student in Islamabad, Peshawar, Karachi, Quetta, or Lahore actually argue the incontestably pro-Zionist arguments I've presented, or would that student pay a price for doing so?


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## MadDog

Dude...dont say this...before getting transfered to canada...*in my university in lahore...i have defended Israel openly...and have insisted that Pakistan should recognize it...in my class in debates..and presentations for a course which included current affairs and international relations.*
But all this *changed after Gaza massacre*.....i still think that it might be useful for Pak to have relations with Israel...but every country has its own principals...on which it survives....its just like i friendship a guy (who is a murderer of children, who takes out organs from dead bodies) in order to benefit myself....i will never do this...same is the case for Pak...thus Pak won't recognize Israel in the current situation.

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## Solomon2

MadDog said:


> ...in my university in lahore...i have defended Israel openly...and have insisted that Pakistan should recognize it...in my class in debates..and presentations for a course which included current affairs and international relations.


How did your classmates and teacher respond to this?



> But all this *changed after Gaza massacre*


Which was not, of course, a "massacre" at all. Though I don't suppose you'd realize that, depending on what Pakistani media you read or view. 

You do bring up an issue that rises over and over in Israeli-Arab relations: whenever it looks like relations are improving more than some parties desire, some sort of violent incident takes place that usually provokes a military response from Israel in return, if only to prevent such violence from becoming a regular occurrence rather than an occasional one. The resulting photos of civilian casualties (from the policy of terror groups to employ human shields) or just slanted, out-of-context reporting, once again raises the level of anti-Israel hatred. If peace is to be reached between peoples, Arabs and Muslims are going to have to start seeing through this ploy and reject it for the cruel provocation it is.



> every country has its own principals...on which it survives....its just like i friendship a guy (who is a murderer of children, who takes out organs from dead bodies) in order to benefit myself....i will never do this...same is the case for Pak...thus Pak won't recognize Israel in the current situation.


I apologize because I'm not sure I can understand your English, yet I can't complain because I don't know Urdu. The organ-stealing allegations were dealt with in this thread; essentially, all such allegations were phony, although an unrelated case involving one doctor and his staff has been discovered. But you can see how endless and unjustified allegations have been invented, just to keep friendship between Israeli Jews and other peoples socially and politically unacceptable.


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## pagans

India should go for full cooperation with Israel. India should support Israel openly on International platforms. India has nothing to gain ,I man absolutely nothing to gain from supporting Palestinians. Israel has always showed that they are ready to help India and be friends with us. Moreover democracies should support each other ,shouldn't we ?


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## pagans

Pakistan, of course ,should not and cannot become friends with Israel. It's banned by the Koran.


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## pagans

Palestine was mostly just dessert wasteland before Israel was created. Arabs and Muslims were least interested in this unteresting part. Everything changed when Jews came made Isreal. They developed it into a leading nation and Arabs envy and hate it.


If Arabs wants peace they can get it now ,in this second itself.Just stop hating Israel and bravo peace is there.


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## Solomon2

pagans said:


> Pakistan, of course ,should not and cannot become friends with Israel. It's banned by the Koran.


I cannot reconcile such a statement with the desire of the last two Caliphs (as expressed by treaty) to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Can you?


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## pagans

Solomon2 said:


> I cannot reconcile such a statement with the desire of the last two Caliphs (as expressed by treaty) to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Can you?


Caliphs had such a desire ..Amazing really amazing....any link on this


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## Solomon2

See the previous two or three pages of the thread discussing the Treaty of S&#232;vres.


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## Super Falcon

we are capable of wiping israel of in just in seconds but political game is a big prbleum for us which is been played by USA, Indian and Israel


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## Roby

Super Falcon said:


> *we are capable of wiping israel of in just in seconds* but political game is a big prbleum for us which is been played by USA, Indian and Israel



Are you sure???


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## pagans

Super Falcon said:


> we are capable of wiping israel of in just in seconds but political game is a big prbleum for us which is been played by USA, Indian and Israel


what POLITICAL GAMES STOP Pakistan FROM WIPING Israel OUT?


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## Sayyaf

pagans said:


> India should go for full cooperation with Israel. India should support Israel openly on International platforms. India has nothing to gain ,I man absolutely nothing to gain from supporting Palestinians. Israel has always showed that they are ready to help India and be friends with us. Moreover democracies should support each other ,shouldn't we ?



hmm, finally a indian exposes his true nature!


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## Sayyaf

Roby said:


> Are you sure???




lol, we're 100% sure! Unlike you indians we don't make idiotic silly threats! When we say something, we mean it, and we keep our promise! If israel dares to do something to Pakistan we'll make a bad example of that country, and of course you indans can join your friend israel if you want!

Don't forget what happened when india and israel tried to launch a join air strike on Pakistan twice, and how we gave a strong reply to BACK OFF or else we'll strike back HARD!

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## Sayyaf

pagans said:


> India should go for full cooperation with Israel. India should support Israel openly on International platforms. India has nothing to gain ,I man absolutely nothing to gain from supporting Palestinians. Israel has always showed that they are ready to help India and be friends with us. Moreover democracies should support each other ,shouldn't we ?




whoa, if only those Arabs were here to see how good you indians are at turning against your own friends!

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## FreekiN

pagans said:


> India should go for full cooperation with Israel. India should support Israel openly on International platforms. India has nothing to gain ,I man absolutely nothing to gain from supporting Palestinians. Israel has always showed that they are ready to help India and be friends with us. Moreover democracies should support each other ,shouldn't we ?



Shows the selfishness of some people.

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## ARSENAL6

Solomon2 said:


> Can a student in Islamabad, Peshawar, Karachi, Quetta, or Lahore actually argue the incontestably pro-Zionist arguments I've presented, *[or would that student pay a price for doing so? *



Yes, not to be trusted and lable him/her to be nut case due to the fact of representing false situation for the support of israel and zionism.

solomon i already posted proof of media bias for isael against innocent people. in this forum everytime.


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## pagans

Sayyaf said:


> whoa, if only those Arabs were here to see how good you indians are at turning against your own friends!


Arabs were never our friends. Only foolish Indians think so.


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## Sayyaf

pagans said:


> Arabs were never our friends. Only foolish Indians think so.




if only all indians were like you!


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## Solomon2

ARSENAL6 said:


> solomon i already posted proof of media bias for isael against innocent people. in this forum everytime.


No, you posted a video you _claimed_ was proof and said go view it. That's not the same. Put your argument and proofs down in black on white. After all, Gabriel told Mohammed to read, not watch TV.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pagans said:


> Arabs were never our friends. Only foolish Indians think so.



indians were very close to Gamal Abdel Nasser and Saddam Hussein...

in fact, the latter was providing arms and logistical support to Baluch insurgencies in both Iran & Pakistan


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pagans said:


> Palestine was mostly just dessert wasteland before Israel was created. Arabs and Muslims were least interested in this unteresting part. Everything changed when Jews came made Isreal. They developed it into a leading nation and Arabs envy and hate it.
> 
> 
> If Arabs wants peace they can get it now ,in this second itself.Just stop hating Israel and bravo peace is there.



that makes a lot of sense. The Arabs and Jews co-existed for ages in Middle East. Look at during holocaust when Jews were moving to Arab countries and even Iran was taking in many self-exiled Jews.

I dont know how you can call it all dessert and "wasteland." Fertile Crescent region is no wasteland, nor is the land in and around Jerusalem.

In fact, many of the inhabitants were striving off olive trade. But it just so happened that israeli army used bull-dozers to raze the arable lands.



what we need to do is stop assuming that all Jews are zionists. Same way Jews need to realize that Muslims are not all terrorists nor do we want to "push them out to sea"



According to the Talmud, Jews in exile are FORBIDDEN to have their own State. I am not, however, an expert on Judaic affairs and teachings; but as a Muslim I do see many similarities with Jewish faith. 

We should differentiate between terrorism in the name of zionism vs. Judaism --which is a peaceful religion.

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## pagans

Sayyaf said:


> if only all indians were like you!


Arabs were never Pakistans friends too.......
Only foolish Pakistanis think otherwise..


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## Dazzler

I am amazed how conveniently Indians turn their backs on their friends but then it is something they have learned over hundreds of years. Chaankiya ideology still rocks for them big time!

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## Dazzler

Arabs have helped us in testing times when so called friends turned their backs on us. One relation is enough to describe our friendship i.e. ISLAM.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

well we should be more specific when we say "Arabs"

they are spread across from Northwest Africa all the way into Iranian Khuzestan!! There is a lot in between


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## niaz

pagans said:


> Palestine was mostly just dessert wasteland before Israel was created. Arabs and Muslims were least interested in this unteresting part. Everything changed when Jews came made Isreal. They developed it into a leading nation and Arabs envy and hate it.
> 
> 
> If Arabs wants peace they can get it now ,in this second itself.Just stop hating Israel and bravo peace is there.




Sorry to disagree with this statement. Palestine was always a fertile land watered by the Jordan River. It was the land of Milk & honey mentioned in the bible. Some parts such as Negev desert were no doubt arid but the land was full of olive groves as well as producer of grapes and apples during the Turkish times. Israelis have without doubt used their technical knowhow to improve the productivity, but to say that Palestine was a desert wasteland is an insult to thousands of years of agricultural history of that region.

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## Solomon2

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what we need to do is stop assuming that all Jews are zionists. Same way Jews need to realize that Muslims are not all terrorists nor do we want to "push them out to sea"


"I asked audience memebers how many of them would count themselves as generally pro-Israel. About a hundred or so students raised their hands. I then asked these pro-Israel students how many of them would favor a Palestinian state existing in peace alongside Israel. Every single one of them raised a hand. 

"I next asked how many audience members counted themselves as supportive of the Palestinian side. A similar number raised their hands. I asked those pro-Palestine students how many of them would support a peaceful, nonexpansionist Israel located beside a Palestinian state. Not a single person raised a hand."

- _The Case Against Israel's Enemies,_ page 15.

Clearly Muslims have a long way to go to reach your lofty goals, Abu Zolfiqar.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's no different from israelis.......I've heard about discrimination against Arab Muslim israeli citizens. 


in the end --- we are all born and we all face similar fates. There is no such thing as "God's chosen people"


that is a myth.

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## Developereo

Solomon2 said:


> Of course. The Balfour Declaration AND its inclusion in the Treaty of S&#232;vres (and subsequent treaties) is a good starting point for those who dispute the modern legitimacy of the return of Jews to the Promised Land.



The Balfour Declaration is used by both sides, usually Zionists, to promote their arguments. However, as I stated, the treaty is a remnant of colonialism and, like many things from that era, is more about military force than legitimacy. It is, essentially, the colonial British imposing their view on the weaker Arabs without their consent or input. In fact, it goes directly against the British promise to the Arabs for a pan-Arab homeland in return for their help against the Ottoman Turks.



Solomon2 said:


> If the video contains something of substance, why not write the salient points, proofs, and reasoning down here, rather than direct me to watch it?



Because you would dismiss anything I say as 'unsubstantiated'.

Would you believe me if I wrote that the Balfour Declaration was actually an attempt by the British to appease the Russian Bolsheviks, whom they thought were mostly Jewish?

Or if I pointed out that the chief of the Haganah himself validates the claim of many Israeli Jewish historians that targetted massacres to instigate terror was the primary method of evicting Arab residents from Palestine?

How about the fact that the documentary completely trashes your repeated assertion that most Palestinian land was legitimately bought by Jewish migrants?



Solomon2 said:


> As if "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestinian" are opposites!



Given that the two sides are locked in mortal conflict, it is certainly the case.



Solomon2 said:


> "If you want truth, see a priest" is one saying reporters have.



Precisely!
Reporters offer opinions, not truth; a fact that is grossly exploited by Israel given that the Western media is utterly dominated by pro-Zionist 'reporters'.



Solomon2 said:


> For Western reporters the important thing is to gain and keep sources so you can gain and keep the eyeballs that boost ratings and circulation.



Yeah, there's a big market in the West for pro-Arab reporting. 



Solomon2 said:


> They think they'd lose both access to sources and viewers/readers if they broadcast/publish anything too pro-Israel - or too uncomfortable for their Arab and Muslim viewers. Balance is tilted away from Israel because the Arab and Muslim market is much bigger.



We are talking about the global media in general and Western media in particular. Neither of those gives a da*n about Arab/Muslim sensibilities.



Solomon2 said:


> The Arab and Muslim reporters I've talked to (including BBC) simply told me they conceived it their duty to be anti-Israel advocates.



You mean they thought it was right to present the other point of view, which is ignored by 99.9&#37; of the Western media?



Solomon2 said:


> Don't you think you're confusing the usual differences of opinion that exist in the West with the ironclad, black-and-white, proof of a written treaty?



Differences of opinion on Israle are not entertained very well in the Western media; the coverage is predominantly pro-Israel. Do you think it is even conceivable that any other country would be able to get away with blatant apartheid the way Israel does? *Nelson Mandela equated the Israeli government's policies to those in South Africa. And he would know.*



Solomon2 said:


> Questioning how people learned something is not a personal attack, but a process of discovery. Why do you claim otherwise?



It was the sarcastic phrasing of your question.  Don't try to be coy.



Solomon2 said:


> I exist in a culture with a lot of free inquiry. You've read a lot of what I write and you know I can find sources to back me up, both in print and on the Internet.



I am sure you can find lots of opinion pieces and revisionist history to back up your claims, which is why I recommended you to watch that BBC documentary. It has first-hand interviews with people who were actually involved in key decisions. Interviews which utterly invalidate most of the pro-Zionist literature floating around on the internet and in print.



Solomon2 said:


> On the other hand, in the opinion of the U.S. Library of Congress,



The US Library of Congress does not write books or articles; people do. So you quote an *opinion piece* by someone. Big deal!



Solomon2 said:


> and that as far as history goes the shelves of serious bookshops are dominated by



History bookshelves of any country are dominated by its own cultural history so, again, what's the big deal? Western bookshelves are mostly lined with Western history books; whatever variation exists is directly proportional to the size of immigrant populations. American bookshelves have a few books on Mexican and South American history; Australian bookshelves are few books on East and South Asian history/culture.

Worse still, books on Islam in the West are mostly written by anti-Muslim bigots who present a selective, revisionist nad highly opinionated view of Islamic history. Very few Westeners have read books on Islam by actual Muslims.



Solomon2 said:


> This seems to be an apt description of an intellectual culture that "ignores uncomfortable aspects of history to suit prejudice", doesn't it?



You are resorting to gross generalizations against entire countries and cultures. I can point out similar assessments comparing right-wing Israeli culture to Nazi Germany by none other than Israeli peace activists and even Jewish members of the Knesset.

I think we can have a more meaningful discussion if we stay away from gross generalizations and character attacks.



Solomon2 said:


> Can a student in Islamabad, Peshawar, Karachi, Quetta, or Lahore actually argue the incontestably pro-Zionist arguments I've presented, or would that student pay a price for doing so?



Why would anyone want to defend the indefensible? Would you want someone defending racism or apartheid? Why do you suppose so many Jews, including Orthodox rabbis, are opposed to Israel?

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## razgriz19

after reading all these comments the only thing that comes to my mind is that HITLER WAS A GREAT GUY!!!
no offence to anyone its just my opinion...


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## alirulesall123

razgriz19 said:


> after reading all these comments the only thing that comes to my mind is that HITLER WAS A GREAT GUY!!!
> no offence to anyone its just my opinion...



Wow, no offence, but what the ****?


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## MPPK

Only contrast two countries forces
Pak navy is more puissant than Israeli.


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## Faizan Qadri

Sayyaf said:


> lol, we're 100% sure! Unlike you indians we don't make idiotic silly threats! When we say something, we mean it, and we keep our promise! If israel dares to do something to Pakistan we'll make a bad example of that country, and of course you indans can join your friend israel if you want!
> 
> Don't forget what happened when india and israel tried to launch a join air strike on Pakistan twice, and how we gave a strong reply to BACK OFF or else we'll strike back HARD!



Really, and if Israel will attack Iran then as a muslim country we should try to defend Iran against Israel.


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## Aamir Hussain

And what about Iran? They seem to forget very conviniently about the "Muslim Brother" thing when offering port and naval facillities to India -- surely not be used against Dubai but Pakistan!!!! 

Let us become pragmatic here, let us first see where does the interest of Pakistan lies. Might come as a surprise but Depleted Uranium shells were produced with the help of Israelis or should I say that the R&D was done jointly in secret!!!


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## AVIAN

Aamir Hussain said:


> And what about Iran? They seem to forget very conviniently about the "Muslim Brother" thing when offering port and naval facillities to India -- surely not be used against Dubai but Pakistan!!!!
> 
> Let us become pragmatic here, let us first see where does the interest of Pakistan lies. Might come as a surprise but Depleted Uranium shells were produced with the help of Israelis or should I say that the R&D was done jointly in secret!!!



There is no way in hell India is willing to use Iranian Ports for military use. India has undertaken development of the same to promote trade by using Iranian Ports as well as Road and rail transport to supply cargo to CIS countries.

If India was so willing to use Iranian port for Pakistan's containment then certainly you may have seen Indian armed forces stationed in Afganistan's border with Pak first.


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## Reactive Armour

Faizan Qadri said:


> Really, and if Israel will attack Iran then as a muslim country we should try to defend Iran against Israel.



Why such a hurry to go extinct.


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## S.U.R.B.

Faizan Qadri said:


> Really, and if Israel will attack Iran then as a muslim country we should try to defend Iran against Israel.


Don't be too emotional ,i think iran have got enough armory to counter Israel if ever an attack occurred

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## Aamir Hussain

AVIAN said:


> There is no way in hell India is willing to use Iranian Ports for military use. India has undertaken development of the same to promote trade by using Iranian Ports as well as Road and rail transport to supply cargo to CIS countries.
> 
> If India was so willing to use Iranian port for Pakistan's containment then certainly you may have seen Indian armed forces stationed in Afganistan's border with Pak first.




My friend, we are no different from you or you from us -- we are all "Sons of this soil --- sub continent." Do not kid youself with this "Trade Only" thing. The same trade preference is being promoted in Afghanistan by opening counselates in areas bordering Pakistan -- to open trade with CIS!!!!

I am not doubting your sincerity but there is a big "?" on what your country is upto in Kabul, Iran, and some CIS states (remember a millitary base!!! Must be to protect trade there.) 

BTW both our countries use the scenario of use of Iranian bases for refuling of your SU fighters when they play out various wargame scenarios in their respective War Colleges!!!!!


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## MastanKhan

S.U.R.B. said:


> Don't be too emotional ,i think iran have got enough armory to counter Israel if ever an attack occurred






No, they don't have anything to counter israel. All the propaganda is just for show and local consumption.


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## gangwar

MastanKhan said:


> No, they don't have anything to counter israel. All the propaganda is just for show and local consumption.



OHH really????

guys i just enjoy the desperation in pakistanis to see iran getting away from india owing to 1 unfortunate incident, thanks to current congress govt.

now they see a big opportunity to mend ways with iran to increase the rift between 2 NAM countries.

nice try guyz.....but pakistan never do their basics right, frankly, pakistan is 1 immature kid on diplomatic front.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gangwar said:


> OHH really????
> 
> guys i just enjoy the desperation in pakistanis to see iran getting away from india owing to 1 unfortunate incident, thanks to current congress govt.
> 
> now they see a big opportunity to mend ways with iran to increase the rift between 2 NAM countries.
> 
> nice try guyz.....but pakistan never do their basics right, frankly, pakistan is 1 immature kid on diplomatic front.



Now arent u trolling?Then u complain if ur called trollers?
Go read a post frm a iranian who wants indian engineers working in iran to build his garagage?
And its the same iran which gave us OIL during indo-Pak wars remember.
And ur working on there ports its good we dont care.And seriously do u think that effects us>?ur doing there work for money whats so damn big about that?Arent indians working in KSA>?one of our biggest supporters and ally?
And i find india and its people more immature and childish to react like babys given a new FEEDER.Your a good example


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## gangwar

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Now arent u trolling?Then u complain if ur called trollers?
> Go read a post frm a iranian who wants indian engineers working in iran to build his garagage?
> And its the same iran which gave us OIL during indo-Pak wars remember.
> And ur working on there ports its good we dont care.And seriously do u think that effects us>?ur doing there work for money whats so damn big about that?Arent indians working in KSA>?one of our biggest supporters and ally?
> And i find india and its people more immature and childish to react like babys given a new FEEDER.Your a good example



why r u whining maan! pakistanis arent chilled ever, i doubt why? as far as that garage guy is concerned then i m sure he knows nothing and i havent seen any other iranian guy in the forum supporting him.

well guys who know their history wud understand india-iran relationship.....and i dont mean current ones.its a bad phase but relations r built over a span of time and i ask u to see that span.

well i dont know much bout the whys and hows of the oil story of indo-pak wars, plz provide me with details, MMTIA.

rest, we all know why any country invest in other countries especially with strategic positions! ever thought why isny india investing in yugoslavia which is also a NAM country.

why iran? why singapore? why kazakastan?

why chabahar port is stationed so near to gwadar port?

some basic questions with obvious answers.

and ppaaaalleeeeesse.....stop TRYING to insult others by calling immature,childish..... everyone have their basics right here so dont unnecessarily attept to show u know better and we are bunch of blabbers....

temme what u call IP pipeline, is actuall a project planned by iran and india in 1990.but unfortunately we had to bear the beiggest obstacle called pakistan between us which took almost 20 yrs to kickstart. if pakistan wasnt there this project wud have started in last century itself. iran waited for 20 yrs ultimately tired and also annoyed by india's antivote, decided to go ahead w/o india, but still the plan has inclusion of india in the future when indian contingent agree. as of now we dont trust pakistan's sincerity that it wont play foul and block supply in tensed relations.

just see the approach of iranians dude.......some antivotes might have dissapointed many in iran but 1 or 2 incidents dont change age long relationship owing to the continous investment and strategic partnership which cant be eradicated in couple of years.

i am sure u guys wud be dissapointed again when iran-india relations get back to old days.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gangwar said:


> why r u whining maan! pakistanis arent chilled ever, i doubt why? as far as that garage guy is concerned then i m sure he knows nothing and i havent seen any other iranian guy in the forum supporting him.
> 
> well guys who know their history wud understand india-iran relationship.....and i dont mean current ones.its a bad phase but relations r built over a span of time and i ask u to see that span.
> 
> well i dont know much bout the whys and hows of the oil story of indo-pak wars, plz provide me with details, MMTIA.
> 
> rest, we all know why any country invest in other countries especially with strategic positions! ever thought why isny india investing in yugoslavia which is also a NAM country.
> 
> why iran? why singapore? why kazakastan?
> 
> why chabahar port is stationed so near to gwadar port?
> 
> some basic questions with obvious answers.



 Im whinin check ur boys post boy and ur desperation?
About Iranian guy hes right whether you accept it or not.About ur relations with iran i dont care much or less.
And yes they did give free oil to us.As well as helicopters to use against militants in 1980s.
And a about chabahar port do u seriously think that coz if u do then 
Do u think iran will give u its port to operate against pakistan?and Pakistan will sit gum mum buk mum sum mum?
?about singapore its not near us nor do we have any issues reguarding ur military presence.
About karghazstan lol do u think u can launch a massive strike from there?You dont have any air or land links for logistic support and so ur logistic starved helis or planes will be nothin more then sitting ducks,few CBMs will do the jobs.Plus not to forget our relation with central asian state most of there army students come to Pakistani military schools and i have had honor to meet quiet a few.
Ur navy isnt that big to be based in iran singapore and india at the same time 50% of ur navy is obsolete.Do you think u will handle and protect urself in iran,singapore and india at the same time?
IRAN WILL NEVER GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO DOCK ON ITS SOIL OR WATERS.Its there CONSTITUTION.And we are more close to iran then you.They wont take such a decision.
Tell me upto date in any war has any muslim country helped india in a war against Pakistan?
Not to forget we do have defence related buisness with them.And we buy there oil. 
SUCH WET DREAMS AND FANTACIES.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

gangwar said:


> and ppaaaalleeeeesse.....stop TRYING to insult others by calling immature,childish..... everyone have their basics right here so dont unnecessarily attept to show u know better and we are bunch of blabbers....


It wasnt me it was ur fan boy i just gave him an answer coz he was talkin like one.



> temme what u call IP pipeline, is actuall a project planned by iran and india in 1990.but unfortunately we had to bear the beiggest obstacle called pakistan between us which took almost 20 yrs to kickstart. if pakistan wasnt there this project wud have started in last century itself. iran waited for 20 yrs ultimately tired and also annoyed by india's antivote, decided to go ahead w/o india, but still the plan has inclusion of india in the future when indian contingent agree. as of now we dont trust pakistan's sincerity that it wont play foul and block supply in tensed relations.



You (india) chickened out when USA set its foots and called for sanctions dont lie.
Reguarding trust on Pakistan.Ind and Pak have been doin buisness despite the rivalry so dont talk B.S about trust.



> just see the approach of iranians dude.......some antivotes might have dissapointed many in iran but 1 or 2 incidents dont change age long relationship owing to the continous investment and strategic partnership which cant be eradicated in couple of years.


 
And iran is Pakistans enemy?lol get a life.About ur relations dude its the same iran that went to support PAKISTAN with FREE OIL and HELICOPTERS.In war and peace it has always been a friend of Pakistan.And ur wet dreams about a port in iran is nothing more then a wet dream gone bad.You guys are a bunch of WORKERS working on IRANIAN PORT.
Also dont forget that Pakistan isnt dependant on gwadar we also have other ports and a new port is being developed.
i am sure u guys wud be dissapointed again when iran-india relations get back to old days.


> i am sure u guys wud be dissapointed again when iran-india relations get back to old days


Wats this another B,S post or were u just trolling ?
Thats why i hate indian trolls.


----------



## gangwar

ALRITE BE HAPPY......i am fed up answering everytime..... well ur views, good 4 u...mine good for me.....

truth is hidden in da future.......

LETS HOPE respectively......and PARTY MAAAN.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Try to face the truth.Its bitter but healthy.

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## totach7

RameeX Xaved said:


> friendship with israel?  you mean friendship with zionists who are the killers of millions of muslims in palestine, iraq afghanistan and pakistan?  you mean friendship with those bloody zionists who have taken over the world and are feeding all their allies to denueclearise Pakistan and snatch its Islamic identity?  you mean friendship with that country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves. we should work with india in achieving our goals"
> no mate, we are far far far better off without them




"zionists who are killers of millions of muslims" 
either you are dumb or a lier

Pakistan general zia ul Haq at the time (1970) killed more
Palestinians with king Hussien in Jordan than Israel in all history

Israel can and should be friend with Pakistan



IDF ARMOR


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## pak-yes

Wooooooo I didn't knew we had an Israeli member on the forum.

And To MODS.

Sir when we don't recognize Israel Offically why do we have an Israeli Flag.


----------



## totach7

pak-yes said:


> Wooooooo I didn't knew we had an Israeli member on the forum.
> 
> And To MODS.
> 
> Sir when we don't recognize Israel Offically why do we have an Israeli Flag.


Big deal
You can come over to visit me in Israel we will welcome you
and respect you!!!


----------



## totach7

razgriz19 said:


> after reading all these comments the only thing that comes to my mind is that HITLER WAS A GREAT GUY!!!
> no offence to anyone its just my opinion...




I hope most Pakistani people don't 
share that opinion.............

The Mufti pf Jerusalem in 1943 was a friend of Hitler
to read more go to:
Jerusalem History in pictures: Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el Husseini - World War 2





IDF ARMOR


----------



## pak-yes

totach7 said:


> Big deal
> You can come over to visit me in Israel we will welcome you
> and respect you!!!



I don't want to be abducted by Mossad and tortured to death.thks.


----------



## FreekiN

totach7 said:


> I hope most Pakistani people don't
> share that opinion.............
> 
> The Mufti pf Jerusalem in 1943 was a friend of Hitler
> to read more go to:
> Jerusalem History in pictures: Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el Husseini - World War 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR



We dont share that opinion.

Even if the mufti was a friend of Hitler, there were still 250,000 Muslims fighting for the Allied side against him.


----------



## Desert Fox

totach7 said:


> I hope most Pakistani people don't
> share that opinion.............
> 
> The Mufti pf Jerusalem in 1943 was a friend of Hitler
> to read more go to:
> Jerusalem History in pictures: Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el Husseini - World War 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR





And don't forget about Muslims who helped Jews escape Hitler and Nazi Germany!

The Faith Divide: When Muslims Saved Jews - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

But you pay us back by driving bulldozers on our homes and kick us out of our land? You kill out brothers and sisters?

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## totach7

SilentNinja said:


> And don't forget about Muslims who helped Jews escape Hitler and Nazi Germany!
> 
> The Faith Divide: When Muslims Saved Jews - On Faith at washingtonpost.com
> 
> But you pay us back by driving bulldozers on our homes and kick us out of our land? You kill out brothers and sisters?



You have your own problems at home don't you? river of blood
but you see better others problems....anyway there is more than one side of each story... the arabs are fighting Israel for 100 years
aiming civilians so dont give me the bulldozer story...
we have peace with Egypt so why cant we have ties with Pakistan?




IDF ARMOR


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## FreekiN

totach7 said:


> You have your own problems at home don't you? river of blood
> but you see better others problems....anyway there is more than one side of each story... the arabs are fighting Israel for 100 years
> aiming civilians so dont give me the bulldozer story...
> we have peace with Egypt so why cant we have ties with Pakistan?
> 
> http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/]IDF ARMOR[/url]



Because Israel regards Pakistan as a threat. Why? Because Pakistan is a friend of Arab nations. 

Israel works against Pakistan as we have seen in 1984 Kohuta, and Kargil war.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> "zionists who are killers of millions of muslims"
> either you are dumb or a lier



This is what exactly we think about Zionist Terrorists .



> Pakistan general zia ul Haq at the time (1970) killed more
> Palestinians with king Hussien in Jordan than Israel in all history



Source???



> Israel can and should be friend with Pakistan



NEVER EVER before you leave Palestine.



> IDF ARMOR


----------



## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> Big deal
> You can come over to visit me in Israel we will welcome you
> and respect you!!!



No Thanks


----------



## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> I hope most Pakistani people don't
> share that opinion



Hitler was an @$$h0le in my Mind , Just a decoy that Zionists used to kill Jewish people to save Zionism ( Lusifarism )



> The Mufti pf Jerusalem in 1943 was a friend of Hitler
> to read more go to:
> Jerusalem History in pictures: Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el Husseini - World War 2



Let me show you something .

*Do you know who this Nazi is????*





[/IMG]



?????????????????????????????????





*Here we Go!!*

Meet the Pope Benedict.














IDF ARMOR[/QUOTE]


----------



## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> You have your own problems at home don't you? river of blood



What problems ? oh i remember Zionists supporting BLA & TTP Through their Indian Slaves??

Or Israeli Air Force Tried to Carry out a Surgical strike in Pakistan?

Iran can just " Talk " But ( with a Capital *"B"*) we are capable of doing something that would be remembered forever.



> but you see better others problems....anyway there is more than one side of each story... the arabs are fighting Israel for 100 years



And why arabs are fighting you?
If you will capture someone's house what are they supposed to do?


> aiming civilians so dont give me the bulldozer story...



I know you are afraid of the Reality and you are guilty .









> we have peace with Egypt so why cant we have ties with Pakistan?
> 
> IDF ARMOR



Egyptians have done a Mistake & we cannot repeat it , but another aspect is Egypt could be Preparing itself for war against Zionist Israel in this time too.


----------



## mughaljee

totach7 said:


> Big deal
> You can come over to visit me in Israel we will welcome you
> and respect you!!!



We were not friends in past and we will be not in future INSHAHALLAH 
*friendship with zionists who are the killers of millions of muslims in palestine, iraq afghanistan and pakistan*

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## DESERT FIGHTER

In case of Pakistan its not just zionists?its our big brother from the otherside of the border.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's hard for me to not condemn israel for its often rogue and illegal actions over the past 5 decades. My heart goes out to Falasteen. But i do believe Jews also deserve a homeland. We as Pakistanis are hypocrites if we deny them this right. Jerusalem should be a jointly owned city as it is home to the holy sites of 3 Abrahamic religions. Don't bring emotions into this topic. We have a lot in common with the Jews. I respect them a lot. I don't respect things that israel has done. But then again, this isn't our war. We have nothing to gain from hating israel and declaring them enemy. We have a lot to gain by engaging with them in a very calculated and professional fashion, like what the Turks do. Lets not bring religion into this discussion. Past is past, think about our interests now. Shouting slogans all the time gets a bit redundant.

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## totach7

Black blood said:


> This is what exactly we think about Zionist Terrorists .
> 
> 
> 
> Source???
> 
> 
> 
> NEVER EVER before you leave Palestine.





read about Pakistan role in killing 20000 palestenians 
and sit quietly ......



Jordanian army attacks

On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.[2] [3] In addition, the Iraqi army that remained in Jordan after the 1967 war serving as a reserve forces supported the Jordanian army.[4]

Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000. [5] [6]

Hostage David Raab described the initial military actions in Black September this way:

"We were in the middle of the shelling since Ashrafiyeh was among the Jordanian Army's primary targets. Electricity was cut off, and again we had little food or water. Friday afternoon, we heard the metal tracks of a tank clanking on the pavement. We were quickly herded into one room, and the guerrillas threw open the doors to make the building appear abandoned so it wouldn't attract fire. Suddenly, the shelling stopped."

The armored troops were inefficient in narrow city streets and thus the Jordanian army conducted house to house sweeps for Palestinian fighters and got immersed in heavy urban warfare with the Palestinian fighters.

Amman experienced the heaviest fighting in the Black September uprising. Syrian tanks rolled across the Yarmouk River into northern Jordan and began shelling Amman and other northern urban areas. Outdated missiles fired by the PLO struck Amman for more than a week. Jordanian infantry pushed the Palestinian Fedayeen out of Amman after weeks of bitter fighting.
IDF ARMOR


----------



## pak-yes

Source or just your personal blog.????or the great Wikipedia.Which anyone can edit according to his wishes.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> read about Pakistan role in killing 20000 palestenians
> and sit quietly ......
> 
> 
> 
> Jordanian army attacks
> 
> On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.[2] [3] In addition, the Iraqi army that remained in Jordan after the 1967 war serving as a reserve forces supported the Jordanian army.[4]
> 
> Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000. [5] [6]
> 
> Hostage David Raab described the initial military actions in Black September this way:
> 
> "We were in the middle of the shelling since Ashrafiyeh was among the Jordanian Army's primary targets. Electricity was cut off, and again we had little food or water. Friday afternoon, we heard the metal tracks of a tank clanking on the pavement. We were quickly herded into one room, and the guerrillas threw open the doors to make the building appear abandoned so it wouldn't attract fire. Suddenly, the shelling stopped."
> 
> The armored troops were inefficient in narrow city streets and thus the Jordanian army conducted house to house sweeps for Palestinian fighters and got immersed in heavy urban warfare with the Palestinian fighters.
> 
> Amman experienced the heaviest fighting in the Black September uprising. Syrian tanks rolled across the Yarmouk River into northern Jordan and began shelling Amman and other northern urban areas. Outdated missiles fired by the PLO struck Amman for more than a week. Jordanian infantry pushed the Palestinian Fedayeen out of Amman after weeks of bitter fighting.
> IDF ARMOR




home grown zionist BS


----------



## totach7

pak-yes said:


> Source or just your personal blog.????or the great Wikipedia.Which anyone can edit according to his wishes.




Here
learn some of your own history stop being blind to facts

Friday, 2 January 2009
The role of General Zia-ul-Haq in the events of Black September (1970), involving killing of 25000 Palestinians in Jordan








During Black September the head of Pakistani training commission took command of the 2nd Division and helped kill and cleanse the Palestinians (est. 25,000 dead) from Jordan.

It was none other that Zia ul Haq.

So much for the Palestinian cause.

The butcher was awarded Jordan's highest honour for the services rendered.

Zia was stationed in Jordan from 1967 to 1970 as a Brigadier, helping in the training of Jordanian soldiers, as well as leading the training mission into battle during the Black September operations as commander of Jordanian 2nd Division, a strategy that proved crucial to King Hussein's remaining in power.

&#8230;

Zia remained posted in Jordan from 1967 till 1970, where he was involved in training and leading Jordon's military. He is still highly respected in Jordan for his role in the Black September operations in support of King Hussein, where he commanded Jordan's 2nd division. Zia's troops were heavily involved in street-to-street urban fighting and are credited with killing scores of Palestinians. Black September was a great example of how the Arab nations despise the Palestinians, and their support of them only goes as far as to encourage and help the Palestinians to kill Jews.

Prophet of Doom - Good Muslims - General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq - Pakistan Dictator - 1977-1988

&#8230;

Black September
September 1970 is known as the Black September in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events." It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the autonomy of Palestinian organizations and restore his monarchy's rule over the country. The violence resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian. Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the PLO and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon.

&#8230;.

Jordanian army attacks
On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh,Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division. In addition, the Iraqi army in Jordan after 1967 war serving as a reserve forces supported the Jordanian army.

Arafat later claim that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians.

The armored troops were inefficient in narrow city streets and thus the Jordanian army conducted house to house sweeps for Palestinian fighters and got immersed in heavy urban warfare with the inexperienced and undisciplined Palestinian fighters.
Amman experienced the heaviest fighting in the Black September uprising. The American backed Jordanian army shelled the PLO headquarters in Amman and battled with Palestinian guerillas in the narrow streets of the capital. Syrian tanks rolled across the Yarmouk River into northern Jordan and began shelling Amman and other northern urban areas. Outdated missiles fired by the PLO struck Amman for more than a week. Jordanian infantry pushed the Palestinian Fedayeen out of Amman after weeks of bitter fighting.

&#8230;.

Muhammad Aamir Mughal writes:

To all jihadi and sectarian activists (i.e., Ziaists), look at your spiritual and political Godfather General Zia:

"QUOTE"

"The most promising comparison between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Jewish State of Israel came from Gen. Zia ul-Haq. Lacking a political constituency, he skillfully exploited Islam to legitimize and consolidate his military dictatorship. Presenting himself as a simple, pious and devoted Muslim, he institutionalized religious radicalism in Pakistan. In so doing, he found Israel to be his strange ally. Toward the end of 1981, he remarked:

&#8220;Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.&#8221; He likewise surprised many observers in March 1986, when he called on the PLO to recognize the Jewish state. As discussed elsewhere, he was actively involved both in the 1970 Black September massacre of the Palestinians in Jordan as well as in Egypt&#8217;s re-entry into the Islamic fold more than a decade later. From 1967 to 1970 our Commander of the Faithful Late. General Muhammad Ziaul Haq was in Jordan in Official Militray Capacity and he helped late. King Hussain of Jordan in &#8216;cleansing&#8217; the so-called Palestinian Insurgents, Zia and Hussain butchered many innocent Palestinians in the name of Operation against Black September {a militant organization of Palestinians}. The intensity of bloodletting by Zia ul Haq and King Hussain was such that one of the founder father of Israel Moshe Dayan said:

&#8220;King Hussein (with help from Zia-ul-Haq of the Pakistani army) sent in his Bedouin army on 27 September to clear out the Palestinian bases in Jordan. A massacre of innumerable proportions ensued. Moshe Dayan noted that Hussein "killed more Palestinians in eleven days than Israel could kill in twenty years." Dayan is right in spirit, but it is hardly the case that anyone can match the Sharonism in its brutality.&#8221;


visit this link:

Let us build Pakistan (LUBP): The role of General Zia-ul-Haq in the events of Black September (1970), involving killing of 25000 Palestinians in Jordan








http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/


----------



## pak-yes

As i suspected blogs.

And one more thing what do you think that we like Zia-ul Haq very much.?

This man is responsible for more damage to Pakistan and Islamic World than all the other dictators combined.

You see all these bad things happening in Pakistan.

Who sow the seeds for it.

Yes Zia-ul-Haq.


----------



## totach7

pak-yes said:


> As i suspected blogs.
> 
> And one more thing what do you think that we like Zia-ul Haq very much.?
> 
> This man is responsible for more damage to Pakistan and Islamic World than all the other dictators combined.
> 
> You see all these bad things happening in Pakistan.
> 
> Who sow the seeds for it.
> 
> Yes Zia-ul-Haq.



Dear sir
a Blog is not making the history

facts are facts

we need peace so do the Palestinian and
more peace is needed in your county is that not so?


----------



## pak-yes

> we need peace





ya Israel wants peace.



Just read this thread and you will know how much peace you want.

Israeli Women Soldiers Break the silence


----------



## totach7

pak-yes said:


> ya Israel wants peace.
> 
> 
> 
> Just read this thread and you will know how much peace you want.
> 
> Israeli Women Soldiers Break the silence



well well


I know that 90 % here think:
hate Jews
hate Israel
hate Zionists
Hitler was a good man
Jews kill Palestinian
Arabs will win
Palestinian are peace seeking people

so....
avoid your dumb remarks......

it is not black and white story......not even in your fine country
isn't it?


----------



## Desert Fox

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> In case of Pakistan its not just zionists?its our big *brother* from the otherside of the border.



you mean our enemy!


----------



## Desert Fox

totach7 said:


> well well
> 
> 
> I know that 90 % here think:
> hate Jews
> hate Israel
> hate Zionists
> Hitler was a good man
> Jews kill Palestinian
> Arabs will win
> Palestinian are peace seeking people
> 
> so....
> avoid your dumb remarks......
> 
> it is not black and white story......not even in your fine country
> isn't it?



We all know how peace loving you israelis are!

Does it make sense if i drive a bulldozer on someones house, drive them and their faimilies out and claim its my land just because some 2,000-3,000 years ago my ancestors lived there?

I would have no problem in arming Hamas with much more sophisticated weapons, and bleed israel with a thousand cuts!

Seriously, you israelis have no remorse for little children! You claim that hitler committed genocide against jews, but don't you think your repeating what hitler did to you?

And its surprising that not only your men but your women also have a heart made of stone! Who the hell would smile while beating up innocent lives and driving families out of their homes? Only a cold blooded killer would!


----------



## su-47

S.U.R.B. said:


> By saying this are you indirectly asking Pakistan to intervene in iran - israel conflict.I won't mind this as PAF pilots have got 100% record against Israeli air force in air combat.



Please give a source for the 100% record claim.

Now the 100% kill ratio was back in the old days when the Arab aircraft piloted by PAF pilots and Israeli aircraft were pretty much on par. Today Israel's F-16I Sufa and F-15I Ra'am are amongst the most advanced aircraft in all of Asia. 

Lets put this into perspective. Ok, I am assuming this scenario takes place this year.The Israeli Air Force F-16Is are more advanced than the F-16 block 52s PAF has been so hyped about. And IAF has 101 Sufas + 78 F-16 Cs + 48 F-16Ds. Add to that 25 F-15I Ra'ama and another 43 other F-15 variants, Phalcon AWACS, 100s of AMRAAM missiles and you will get some idea why PAF can't take on their Israeli counter parts.

Ok, assuming this scenario is a few years in the future, PAF would have received JF-17, F-16 block 52 and J-10. But the Israelis would be fielding the 5th gen F-35. Also, to add to the equation, the Americans won't allow Pakistan to use F-16 block 52s against Israel. That adds to the problem for Pakistan.

Look, I am not saying Pakistani pilots are in any way inferior to Israeli pilots. I have a lot of respect for PAF pilots. But the fact is that at the end of the day the Israeli technological and numerical superiority far outweighs the capabilities of PAF. 

And I don't think Iran has anything significant to add to the air war equation. They also field outdated aircraft.


----------



## totach7

SilentNinja said:


> We all know how peace loving you israelis are!
> 
> Does it make sense if i drive a bulldozer on someones house, drive them and their faimilies out and claim its my land just because some 2,000-3,000 years ago my ancestors lived there?
> 
> I would have no problem in arming Hamas with much more sophisticated weapons, and bleed israel with a thousand cuts!
> 
> Seriously, you israelis have no remorse for little children! You claim that hitler committed genocide against jews, but don't you think your repeating what hitler did to you?
> 
> And its surprising that not only your men but your women also have a heart made of stone! Who the hell would smile while beating up innocent lives and driving families out of their homes? Only a cold blooded killer would!


----------



## S.U.R.B.

self deleted .


----------



## S.U.R.B.

su-47 said:


> Please give a source for the 100% record claim.
> 
> Now the 100% kill ratio was back in the old days when the Arab aircraft piloted by PAF pilots and Israeli aircraft were pretty much on par. Today Israel's F-16I Sufa and F-15I Ra'am are amongst the most advanced aircraft in all of Asia.
> 
> Lets put this into perspective. Ok, I am assuming this scenario takes place this year.The Israeli Air Force F-16Is are more advanced than the F-16 block 52s PAF has been so hyped about. And IAF has 101 Sufas + 78 F-16 Cs + 48 F-16Ds. Add to that 25 F-15I Ra'ama and another 43 other F-15 variants, Phalcon AWACS, 100s of AMRAAM missiles and you will get some idea why PAF can't take on their Israeli counter parts.
> 
> Ok, assuming this scenario is a few years in the future, PAF would have received JF-17, F-16 block 52 and J-10. But the Israelis would be fielding the 5th gen F-35. Also, to add to the equation, the Americans won't allow Pakistan to use F-16 block 52s against Israel. That adds to the problem for Pakistan.
> 
> Look, I am not saying Pakistani pilots are in any way inferior to Israeli pilots. I have a lot of respect for PAF pilots. But the fact is that at the end of the day the Israeli technological and numerical superiority far outweighs the capabilities of PAF.
> 
> And I don't think Iran has anything significant to add to the air war equation. They also field outdated aircraft.



That is how we used to compare mig21 with israeli mirage III in old days . PAF pilots were good at that time and even better now.No one asking for a letter a recommendation from America to use f-16 against israel & Why should we use it when we will be having a better option in the form of j-10.
this document might help
The Role of Pakistan Air Force Volunteer Pilots in Arab Israel Wars in Air Combat Against Israel


----------



## S.U.R.B.

totach7 said:


> YouTube - An Open Letter to the World



it seems you have figured it out after all and ready for extinction.


----------



## Desert Fox

totach7 said:


> YouTube - An Open Letter to the World



This doesn't change the fact that you kick out innocent people from their homes just because 2,000-3,000 years ago your ancestors lived there!

And don't forget the contribution that Muslims and Arabs made for science, art,, navigation, medicine, and astronomy throughout the ages!


----------



## Parashuram1

This is absolute violation of the Forum's own rules! The kind of speech that is being used against a fellow forum member just because he/she is Israeli and is ideologically opposite. Kind sirs, this is a forum and not a battlefield. At least as hosts to this site and representing your country Pakistan, please show some professional discussion online.

The emotional barrage of religious arguments doesn't stop at all here doesn't it? It is preposterous that all the claims of the Israeli member here are dismissed as lies and propaganda while singularly over-whelming the member with rhetorics. 

Is this the way guests of non-Pakistani origin are treated? Please don't let your religious emotions overwhelm the professionalism that is required of an online discussion debate. This thread's development is totally uncalled for.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> well well



I do not know about others but here is my personal opinion.



> I know that 90 % here think:
> hate Jews



I do not hate " Jews " the real orthodox jews like these.









> hate Israel



I do hate Israel for what they did to us & what they are doing by supporting terrorism in Pakistan.



> hate Zionists



Positive in my case , if you know who the Zionists are.



> Hitler was a good man



I hate hitler .



> Jews kill Palestinian



OH my GOD !!! i guess there are Aliens coming from Mars to kill Palestinian civilians  shame on your miserable face.



> Arabs will win



God willing ! Have you forgot Hizbullah war 2006 when you " officially" accepted the defeat ??



> Palestinian are peace seeking people



There is not doubt.



> so....
> avoid your dumb remarks......



same suggestion to you. 



> it is not black and white story......not even in your fine country
> isn't it?



It is a story with a good and bad , light and the darkness where you are cruel and Criminals but it is not going to last very long.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> YouTube - An Open Letter to the World



*Normal BS Propaganda of Zionists.*


----------



## Kompromat

Parashuram1 said:


> This is absolute violation of the Forum's own rules! The kind of speech that is being used against a fellow forum member just because he/she is Israeli and is ideologically opposite. Kind sirs, this is a forum and not a battlefield. At least as hosts to this site and representing your country Pakistan, please show some professional discussion online.
> 
> The emotional barrage of religious arguments doesn't stop at all here doesn't it? It is preposterous that all the claims of the Israeli member here are dismissed as lies and propaganda while singularly over-whelming the member with rhetorics.
> 
> Is this the way guests of non-Pakistani origin are treated? Please don't let your religious emotions overwhelm the professionalism that is required of an online discussion debate. This thread's development is totally uncalled for.




Thanks for Being so Kind to us and telling us what to do but you do not have to because you can't.

Your Israeli friend is drawing self prepared conclusions about how many people In Pakistan think what about Israel .

Nice try

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## su-47

S.U.R.B. said:


> That is how we used to compare mig21 with israeli mirage III in old days . PAF pilots were good at that time and even better now.No one asking for a letter a recommendation from America to use f-16 against israel & Why should we use it when we will be having a better option in the form of j-10.
> this document might help
> The Role of Pakistan Air Force Volunteer Pilots in Arab Israel Wars in Air Combat Against Israel



The disparity between MiG-21 and Mirage III was not much. MiG-21 has better manoeuvrability while Mirage has higher speed. In those days Air-to-air missiles were in their infancy and a lot of gun kills were achieved. A competent MiG-21 pilot could down Mirage pilots of similar (or slightly inferior) skills.

That is no longer the case today. The technology gap between Israel and Pakistan is too wide. Now I'm not gonna compare Israeli and Pakistani pilots, since it has been a long time since the Arab-Israeli wars, but sufficient to say both are very competent. As such Israeli pilots utilising significantly superior tech will be able to achieve edge over Pakistani pilots.

And as for F-16 , PAFs F-16s are delivered under conditions limiting their use AFAIK. But even if the conditions are lifted, PAF will have significantly less number of F-16s than Israel, and their F-16 block 52s will be inferior to Sufa.

Also, regarding the J-10 and block 52, PAF doesn't have them yet. By the time they become operational in PAF, its very likely that we'll see Israel using F-35s. 

So whether we take a situation today or in the future, APF comes up short against the Israelis due to lack of equipment and a large technological gap.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i implore that religion is kept out of this discussion and we respect the guests here, as required by our culture. Share your opinions, but keep it professional. Come up with solutions, leave emotions aside.


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## Hayreddin

In my point of view ,we should concentrate on INDIA rather than ISRAEL .*we shoulld have NO FRIEND NO FOE POLICY toward israel until israel pose any direct threat to PAKISTAN* .
We got more threats from our internal scenerio ,traitors and internal enemies .if we would be strong economically ,military and if we suceeded in eliminating traitors among us ,there will be no nation dare to scourge our sovereignty .

If we become a fort of islam in real sense in future than we can make policies have broad spectrum affects but if now we try to indulge ourselves in such things like full hostile policy toward ISRAEL or anyother nation (except INDIA ) ,it would not be so good for us .


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## pak-yes

Parashuram1 said:


> This is absolute violation of the Forum's own rules! The kind of speech that is being used against a fellow forum member just because he/she is Israeli and is ideologically opposite. Kind sirs, this is a forum and not a battlefield. At least as hosts to this site and representing your country Pakistan, please show some professional discussion online.
> 
> The emotional barrage of religious arguments doesn't stop at all here doesn't it? It is preposterous that all the claims of the Israeli member here are dismissed as lies and propaganda while singularly over-whelming the member with rhetorics.
> 
> Is this the way guests of non-Pakistani origin are treated? Please don't let your religious emotions overwhelm the professionalism that is required of an online discussion debate. This thread's development is totally uncalled for.



lol.Indian coming to the rescue.


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## pak-yes

ahmed said:


> In my point of view ,we should concentrate on INDIA rather than ISRAEL .*we shoulld have NO FRIEND NO FOE POLICY toward israel until israel pose any direct threat to PAKISTAN* .
> We got more threats from our internal scenerio ,traitors and internal enemies .if we would be strong economically ,military and if we suceeded in eliminating traitors among us ,there will be no nation dare to scourge our sovereignty .
> 
> If we become a fort of islam in real sense in future than we can make policies have broad spectrum affects but if now we try to indulge ourselves in such things like full hostile policy toward ISRAEL or anyother nation (except INDIA ) ,it would not be so good for us .



Brother just tell me one thing.Who started the war.

Yes it was Israel.Their first prime minister was talking about wiping Pakistan of the map.

Who tried to carry our surgical strikes.Not India.Yes Again Israel.

Who is supporting terrorism in Pakistan.Killing Innocents.Yes Israel.

Who is supplying Advanced Weapons to Indians.Again Israel(Well this Point is a little bit weak for animosity but still above points are strong.)

So Israel that has made us it's enemy.We have done nothing.except for sending few Pilots to Arabs Aid.

lol.Arabs were not even able to use them.Because by the time they reached Arabs didn't had any Aircraft Left.

Still our PAF has 100&#37; record against the so called most toughest Pilots in the World.

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## Kharian_Beast

> So Israel that has made us it's enemy.We have done *nothing*.*except *for sending *few *Pilots to Arabs Aid.



This was a big mistake and can explain why it is so easy for Israel to lend her services to India, just to repay the friendly gestures of Pakistan.


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## pak-yes

Kharian_Beast said:


> This was a big mistake and can explain why it is so easy for Israel to lend her services to India, just to repay the friendly gestures of Pakistan.



Well i would say 50/50.

50&#37; correct because every Muslim should help another Muslim.

50% wrong because these same Arabs have relations with India.And these Same Arabs are responsible for the downfall of Ummah..And These Same Arabs give money to Israel to Indirectly(Buying European and American Defence Products.Well although we did also the same but now we are on right track.But they aren't).And these Same Arabs Treat Pakistani's(and Indians for that matter)like slaves.

But Still the War was started by them.Their Prime minister.NOT US.

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## Desert Fox

Parashuram1 said:


> This is absolute violation of the Forum's own rules! The kind of speech that is being used against a fellow forum member just because he/she is Israeli and is ideologically opposite. Kind sirs, this is a forum and not a battlefield. At least as hosts to this site and representing your country Pakistan, please show some professional discussion online.
> 
> The emotional barrage of religious arguments doesn't stop at all here doesn't it? It is preposterous that all the claims of the Israeli member here are dismissed as lies and propaganda while singularly over-whelming the member with rhetorics.
> 
> Is this the way guests of non-Pakistani origin are treated? *Please don't let your religious emotions overwhelm the professionalism that is required of an online discussion debate. This thread's development is totally uncalled for.*



Everyone has a right to defend themselves and their property against a illegal occupier! *And last time i checked the thread was about Pakistan and Israel's relations*! So in my opinion we should not befriend a country that kicks people out of their homes and bombs them after wards!


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## sur

RameeX Xaved said:


> Aamir Khan is a Pakistani Nijad Boxer now living in Uk vs Israeli Jew Boxer Dmitriy Salita match and see what happens


*here's full video...*













Amir Khan wearing dark-green outfit to express his inner affiliation with Pakistan 
;even commentator says green is Pakistan's color;country of his heritage.... Even his brother holding the belt & rest of team is in green..... & israeli Dmitri accompanied by Rabbis & wearing David's star; though from USA but u see israeli flag behind him....... Media called it a fight b/w Pak & Israel in the ring...... Israeli got knocked out in 90 sec.....

In following interview Amir says _(watch from minutes 2:33)_when he fight he has Pak flag on his outfit on one(Right) side & British flag on other........ 





Pak flag in his gym_(minute 1:33)_.........












Commentator "salita did NOT see it coming...", well..!! they won't see it coming next time too.... Eesa will "knock them down" without much fight with help from an army from the "EAST"...... InshALLAH

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## Kansu

i dont believe that Pakistan may want to attack israel. for what? do you really think that people in this world fight for religion? religion is a mask. everything depends on economy Gentelmen.
And israel makes up new enemies everyday. now they started to say that pakistan's nuclear arms can be captured by taliban and this is the worst possibility for middle east ... 
i wonder where pakistan keeps its nuclear arsenal. what kind of a nonsense is this?  

but there is one thing certain. If a nation cant produce new positive values, new projects and new aims; that nation gives the signals of collapse. if you dont do anything positive and nice to provide a better future for the people of israel, you cant hold them together. Now the only thing makes israel stand on that geography is ''so called terror'' and ''internal threats''. if israel needs to survive it needs to make up new enemies, earn new ones. so i m not surprised about this thread. 

The biggest thread for isreal is israel's itself. that zionist soul, that ultra nationalist isreali way of thinking. 

(no mate, i just read Haaretz and Jpost...)

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## SQ8

Good boxer.. Poor use of media to show this as a hyped up version of the Muslim Pakistani vs the Jew.


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## Desert Fox

sur said:


> *here's full video...*
> 
> YouTube- Amir Khan vs Dimitry Salita
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amir Khan wearing dark-green outfit to express his inner affiliation with Pakistan
> ;even commentator says green is Pakistan's color;country of his heritage.... Even his brother holding the belt & rest of team is in green..... & israeli Dmitri accompanied by Rabbis & wearing David's star; though from USA but u see israeli flag behind him....... Media called it a fight b/w Pak & Israel in the ring...... Israeli got knocked out in 90 sec.....
> 
> In following interview Amir says _(watch from minutes 2:33)_when he fight he has Pak flag on his outfit on one(Right) side & British flag on other........ YouTube- Aik Din Geo Kay Sath - Amir Khan (Boxer) - Part 1 of 3
> 
> 
> Pak flag in his gym_(minute 1:33)_.........
> YouTube- Aik Din Geo Kay Sath - Amir Khan (Boxer) - Part 3 of 3
> 
> YouTube- Amir Khan celebrates Pakistan victory
> 
> 
> 
> Commentator "salita did NOT see it coming...", well..!! they won't see it coming next time too.... Eesa will "knock them down" without much fight with help from an army from the "EAST"...... InshALLAH



lol, i have to agree, its in our blood to kick zionist butt


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## S.U.R.B.

The only way Israel can win over Pakistan is only by winning the hearts of Muslims and the first step can be Palestinian liberation. There is no other way to concur....
Almost every community in the world have hammered you people for your idiotic mistakes, mending your ways forever will only be a solution.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This thread should be moved to international section makes no sense to see Israel - in pakistan army section


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## Parashuram1

Black blood said:


> Thanks for Being so Kind to us and telling us what to do but you do not have to because you can't.
> 
> Your Israeli friend is drawing self prepared conclusions about how many people In Pakistan think what about Israel .
> 
> Nice try


Dear friend, While hotach7 is focused on discussing military capabilities and matching them, comments here by Pakistani members are religion-focused *instead *of considering military capabilities. This is where the argument starts getting meaningless. What is the need for bringing religion in almost every thread on this forum and matching it with military capabilities? It has no exact co-relation and never will have. Therefore, moderators need to remove religion-oriented inflammatory comments so that the discussion retains its professionalism.

Honestly, how many senior members are doing this despite themselves laying it down in the forum rules? As a worldwide forum, there are people of different religions and therefore this kind of sensitive matter should not be taken at all even when matching military might. It is very undesirable.

There is no direct co-relation between religion and victory and just because a professional boxer got knocked out in a totally unrelated boxing competition, forum posters here are equating this controlled and balanced sporting even with a potential war.

Now please tell me, who is making self-imagined conclusions?


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## totach7

SilentNinja said:


> We all know how peace loving you israelis are!
> 
> Does it make sense if i drive a bulldozer on someones house, drive them and their faimilies out and claim its my land just because some 2,000-3,000 years ago my ancestors lived there?
> 
> I would have no problem in arming Hamas with much more sophisticated weapons, and bleed israel with a thousand cuts!
> 
> Seriously, you israelis have no remorse for little children! You claim that hitler committed genocide against jews, but don't you think your repeating what hitler did to you?
> 
> And its surprising that not only your men but your women also have a heart made of stone! Who the hell would smile while beating up innocent lives and driving families out of their homes? Only a cold blooded killer would!



You know what?
you are Nazi in your mind..... bleed Israel????
take care of the rivers of blood in your country first
Speak peace !!!
Israel is here forever

http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/


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## Desert Fox

totach7 said:


> You know what?
> *you are Nazi in your mind*..... bleed Israel????
> take care of the rivers of blood in your country first
> Speak peace !!!
> Israel is here forever
> 
> IDF ARMOR



you mean the rivers of blood that your intelligence agency has created along with the help of india!

Lets not forget the BLA HQ in israel shall we?

BTW your the Nazis here, occupying the land that belongs to Palestinians! You cry hitler but yet your repeating the exact thing he did, this show's your hypocrisy!


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## The Patriot

I do not support Israel&#8217;s occupation and its atrocities in Palestinian land and will condemn any misconduct by Israel there. I support two state system. Having said that I feel that there is lack of intellectual debate within Pakistan about our policies regarding Israel. We need an objective evaluation of our policies towards Israel. 

I believe Pakistan did not gain anything by opposing and not recognizing the state of Israel. If we did not recognize it because of Arab solidarity, then the Arab should have shown solidarity with our Kashmir cause but they didn&#8217;t. We did not get any other financial gains from not recognizing it. It the logic was that it had illegally occupied the land of Palestine, then we should have not recognized India too as it has illegally occupied Kashmir or for that matter any other country that has occupied a Muslim land. If we can recognize India and hold dialogue with it, the same we can do with Israel. By making Israel an enemy we have helped our enemies who may have or will get support from Israel. I don&#8217;t need to mention defense agreements between India and Israel. 

If we recognize Israel IMO we will not lose anything. The benefits are several:

1.	If we really care about Islamic brother hood, I think the best way to stop Israel from committing any crimes against Muslims is to recognize it and use diplomatic channels with it. Our recognition will give us leverage as it desperately want s recognition from Muslim states. In current situation we cannot say or do anything. 

2.	The powerful Jewish lobby in the US which will help us in pleading or serving our interests in the US . Jews also control the media and Pakistan could get positive media coverage. At the moment Jewish lobby supports the India lobby. 

3.	When we have good relations with Israel, we may able to learn from its technology and may stop it from defense deals with India which would be against our interests. 

4.	Israel will stop&#8212;if it is involved&#8212;any conspiracy against Pakistan. 

But this is not the right time from recognizing Israel. This will give extremist elements a good cause to further their political goals. IMO after Pakistan bring situation under control, it should recognize Israel.


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## Parashuram1

The Patriot said:


> I do not support Israel&#8217;s occupation and its atrocities in Palestinian land and will condemn any misconduct by Israel there. I support two state system. Having said that I feel that there is lack of intellectual debate within Pakistan about our policies regarding Israel. We need an objective evaluation of our policies towards Israel.
> 
> I believe Pakistan did not gain anything by opposing and not recognizing the state of Israel. If we did not recognize it because of Arab solidarity, then the Arab should have shown solidarity with our Kashmir cause but they didn&#8217;t. We did not get any other financial gains from not recognizing it. It the logic was that it had illegally occupied the land of Palestine, then we should have not recognized India too as it has illegally occupied Kashmir or for that matter any other country that has occupied a Muslim land. If we can recognize India and hold dialogue with it, the same we can do with Israel. By making Israel an enemy we have helped our enemies who may have or will get support from Israel. I don&#8217;t need to mention defense agreements between India and Israel.
> 
> If we recognize Israel IMO we will not lose anything. The benefits are several:
> 
> 1.	If we really care about Islamic brother hood, I think the best way to stop Israel from committing any crimes against Muslims is to recognize it and use diplomatic channels with it. Our recognition will give us leverage as it desperately want s recognition from Muslim states. In current situation we cannot say or do anything.
> 
> 2.	The powerful Jewish lobby in the US which will help us in pleading or serving our interests in the US . Jews also control the media and Pakistan could get positive media coverage. At the moment Jewish lobby supports the India lobby.
> 
> 3.	When we have good relations with Israel, we may able to learn from its technology and may stop it from defense deals with India which would be against our interests.
> 
> 4.	Israel will stop&#8212;if it is involved&#8212;any conspiracy against Pakistan.
> 
> But this is not the right time from recognizing Israel. This will give extremist elements a good cause to further their political goals. IMO after Pakistan bring situation under control, it should recognize Israel.


And should the Pakistan government risk the wrath of its current citizenship? I don't think that any government in Pakistan especially a vote-dependent democratic country would ever consider taking such a move especially at this time when anti-American and anti-Israeli sentiments are all time high in Pakistan.

While recognition would bring about some level of peace, I daresay Tel Aviv would not like to reduce its defense and strategic ties with New Delhi. One has to consider the potential that both Chinese and Indian markets can offer Israeli companies who also have recognized Israeli existence without putting forth any conditions as compared to what most Muslim countries think. It is very unlikely that after four decades of animosity with your country, they would ever hand over technology to you with such freedom.

If you noticed, this very putting forth of conditions is what led Delhi and Tel Aviv to forge stronger ties.

1) The condition of Muslim countries for having a separate Palestine homeland hardened the Israeli resolve.

2) Despite 4 decades of strong support for Palestine from New Delhi to Arab states, none of them ever supported the former in its conflict with your country in the UNO. 

Apart from this, the barrage of conditions that Indians lay down their nuclear arms, revoke ties with Israel as well as forget Kashmir and only then expect support of Muslim countries for a permanent seat in UN security council was too much for Delhi to accept anyone attempting to dictate its foreign policies. 


And these very sets of non-negotiable conditions makes both the countries have stronger strategic ties apart from the shared threat of terrorist organizations both in Middle East and South Asia joining hands.

Apart from these issues, IMO there is no way to solve the matter and certainly not any war as it will yield disastrous results to both the sides. My analysis of a no-war solution:

1) Any attack on Israel will by Pakistan would earn them the wrath of United States if not NATO, which is more than enough alone.

2) Possibility of escalation to nuclear levels very much which would mean that even one nuclear missile if released would spell end of this world as all nuclear powers will not trust each other and launch their missiles.

3) Pakistani forces are already busy fighting within its borders with numerous terrorist organizations that are wrecking your country. By demanding a war on a totally unrelated entity, you would be stretching their capabilities thin.

4) Whether from Pakistani perspective or a neutral perspective; both Pakistan and Israel are equally powerful in terms of capabilities and this is cold hard truth when practically seen. 

Those members who feel resting on past laurels of minor and inconsequentially unproductive achievements which had no effect on the outcome of those conflicts, need to understand that this is a totally different scenario. While last time Pakistani pilots engaged Israel when it was busy with 4 other countries' air forces, this time Islamabad would face the Israeli military full on face. Apart from United States' fury, even your neighbour New Delhi wouldn't take this conflict too kindly considering their closeness with Israel.

While Pakistan enjoys numerical superiority over Israel, the latter enjoys a huge technological superiority over the former. Therefore, a war would be an end to both the countries.


Therefore, the only way possible and susceptible to yield any results for Pakistan if at all it feels it necessary to engage with Israel over all its current domestic terrorism issues, talks and diplomatic channels are the only way forward.


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## FreekiN

How about they leave us alone and we leave them alone? After all, they were the ones who attacked us first.


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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> You know what?
> you are Nazi in your mind..... bleed Israel????



Normal Zionist "Slogan" .. Nazis were a joke and were stupid.



> take care of the rivers of blood in your country first



Thanks to you and your Indian friends , its just a matter of time when we will payback .



> Speak peace !!!



An israeli is speaking of peace



> Israel is here forever



I support a chunk of land for Israelis as they have every right to live in peace BUT along with an Independent state of Palestine.

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## Sinnerman108

Parashuram1 said:


> Apart from these issues, IMO there is no way to solve the matter and certainly not any war as it will yield disastrous results to both the sides. My analysis of a no-war solution:
> 
> 1) Any attack on Israel will by Pakistan would earn them the wrath of United States if not NATO, which is more than enough alone.
> 
> 2) Possibility of escalation to nuclear levels very much which would mean that even one nuclear missile if released would spell end of this world as all nuclear powers will not trust each other and launch their missiles.
> 
> 3) Pakistani forces are already busy fighting within its borders with numerous terrorist organizations that are wrecking your country. By demanding a war on a totally unrelated entity, you would be stretching their capabilities thin.
> 
> 4) Whether from Pakistani perspective or a neutral perspective; both Pakistan and Israel are equally powerful in terms of capabilities and this is cold hard truth when practically seen.
> 
> Those members who feel resting on past laurels of minor and inconsequentially unproductive achievements which had no effect on the outcome of those conflicts, need to understand that this is a totally different scenario. While last time Pakistani pilots engaged Israel when it was busy with 4 other countries' air forces, this time Islamabad would face the Israeli military full on face. Apart from United States' fury, even your neighbour New Delhi wouldn't take this conflict too kindly considering their closeness with Israel..



What made you conjure up this scenario ?

There has been at least 3 direct Pak - Israel contacts in history.
2 were hostile, one was mediated.

India has twice turned down Israel's attempts to over run Pakistan.

NATO / Europe are deep into their own economic mess, and will remain subdued in defense development, considering China and Moscow are on the rise.

They will focus on their enemies before they consider coming to rescue you.

I am amused as to how you think Pakistan and Israel will come face to face on battle grounds, and why would Pakistan like to come face to face ?

Here a simpler scenario.

Pakistan to export / install Land to Land missiles in areas around Israel.
Produce plenty of cruise missiles to fool and defeat the anti missile systems.
Hard tip every missile possible.
Keep them fueled , coupled and ready.

Problem solved !

Israel is doing almost similar thing to Pakistan, so why not reverse tactics.

There is just ONE Israel, and that too is very small.

How about holding it hostage and dealing on our terms.

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## eastwatch

totach7 said:


> You know what?
> you are Nazi in your mind..... bleed Israel????
> take care of the rivers of blood in your country first
> Speak peace !!!
> Israel is here forever
> 
> IDF ARMOR


Israel is an illegal occupier of foreign land. Today or tomorrow it has to vacate this land and go back to germany and other parts of europe to where the Jews belong. Israel is more Nazi than the Nazi germany could ever be. 

Israeli armed forces with all its firepowers are nothing, except that the open terrain in that arab land does not support a guerrilla war by the Palestinians. 

Better you make peace with your neighbours or abolish yourself as an entity before you shame yourself with defeat. You cannot afford even only one defeat, that is the reality.

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## AVIAN

eastwatch said:


> Israel is an illegal occupier of foreign land. Today or tomorrow it has to vacate this land and go back to germany and other parts of europe to where the Jews belong. Israel is more Nazi than the Nazi germany could ever be.
> 
> Israeli armed forces with all its firepowers are nothing, except that the open terrain in that arab land does not support a guerrilla war by the Palestinians.
> 
> Better you make peace with your neighbours or abolish yourself as an entity before you shame yourself with defeat. You cannot afford even only one defeat, that is the reality.



This is exactly what the root cause of Arab-Isreal Conflict. Both the parties don't believe in Peaceful negotiation and always look to outdo other by unleashing bloodshed.


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## Parashuram1

salman108 said:


> What made you conjure up this scenario ?
> 
> There has been at least 3 direct Pak - Israel contacts in history.
> 2 were hostile, one was mediated.
> 
> India has twice turned down Israel's attempts to over run Pakistan.
> 
> NATO / Europe are deep into their own economic mess, and will remain subdued in defense development, considering China and Moscow are on the rise.
> 
> They will focus on their enemies before they consider coming to rescue you.
> 
> I am amused as to how you think Pakistan and Israel will come face to face on battle grounds, and why would Pakistan like to come face to face ?
> 
> Here a simpler scenario.
> 
> Pakistan to export / install Land to Land missiles in areas around Israel.
> Produce plenty of cruise missiles to fool and defeat the anti missile systems.
> Hard tip every missile possible.
> Keep them fueled , coupled and ready.
> 
> Problem solved !
> 
> Israel is doing almost similar thing to Pakistan, so why not reverse tactics.
> 
> There is just ONE Israel, and that too is very small.
> 
> How about holding it hostage and dealing on our terms.





> Pakistan to export / install Land to Land missiles in areas around Israel.
> Produce plenty of cruise missiles to fool and defeat the anti missile systems.
> Hard tip every missile possible.
> Keep them fueled , coupled and ready.



You think wars are so simple, don't you? Have you ever served even in a non-combatant role? Seriously, Apart from senior members like Mr. Muradk, there is rarely any tactic that has made sense in all the discussions that I have gone through.

Do you really think that making "plenty of cruise missiles" is as easy as putting a wad of flour on one side of the machine and get noodles on the other side? 

In that case pray tell me:

1) How are you going to cover the cost of making it?
2) Who is going to pay for all the units that you plan to export?

Currently your economy doesn't permit you do be in any position to donate missiles to other agencies or entities. If you were that loaded with cash, don't you think that Pakistani military would prefer buying those missiles for its own induction rather than wasting them on some other unwanted enemy?



> Israel is doing almost similar thing to Pakistan, so why not reverse tactics.



What exactly do you mean the same thing? If you are talking about Israeli agencies exporting defense equipments to New Delhi, I would like to show you here that in return, Israeli agencies get cold hard cash, billions from Indians. This gives Israel profitable revenues to continue manufacturing cutting-edge weaponry for themselves. What benefit in short or even medium term would Pakistani agencies gain by.. what did you call it? ahhh "producing numerous missiles and planting them around Israel".



> There is just ONE Israel, and that too is very small.



And yet it produces maximum number of weapons and technology scientists around the world via other countries, has one of the most advanced indigenous defense industry and a military that would put many larger armed forces to shame. You forget the immense resources of Pentagon it has at its disposal



> How about holding it hostage and dealing on our terms.



And you really think Mossad and CIA would be eating popcorn while Pakistani military intelligence is able to do that? Think practically my dear friend, Mossad despite limited resources is one of the most efficient intelligence agencies around the world. Coupled with CIA's impossible defense resources at their disposal, do you really think it is going to be that simple taking Israel a "hostage" and negotiating?

Any slightest sign of Israel weakening and United States along with God knows which all allies, will get into action. And in such a case, US won't be dealing with an unknown terrorist organization but a very familiar regular military of a country.

Now tell me, will your agencies prefer spending time guarding the nation against your main threat i.e. India or will they waste it over a country that officially poses them no threat, just over a perceived notion?

If you are interested in more details, ask some member currently serving in your armed forces (regardless of which service arm), to give you an in-depth analysis on what are the possible scenarios of a "Pakistan vs Israel". Let a serviceman explain you a more realistic battle scenario keeping your country's characteristics such as resources at disposal, manpower, efficiency and viability in mind.

Funny, someone even thanked you for such a post. Seriously!

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## MastanKhan

salman108 said:


> Israel is doing almost similar thing to Pakistan, so why not reverse tactics.
> 
> There is just ONE Israel, and that too is very small.
> 
> How about holding it hostage and dealing on our terms.





Sir,

Please kidnly do a lttle more serious research about the capabilities of israel and limitations of pakistan---I wish you didnot have to make that statement that you did.

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## Hayreddin

1:*Recognizing ISRAEL is extreme and making hostile realtions with ISREAL is again extreme tactic now .*
2:I am not in the favor of israel but first become strong than involve practically into Muslim world problems .
3: *Did any ARAB country or OIC practically supported PAKISTAN on KASHMIR ISSUE ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,answer is no* .please be realistic ,becoming emotional is not a wise thing .If ARAB countries try ,they can put pressure on INDIA for KASHMIR but instead they always make ties with INDIA example is YASIR ARAFAT realtions with india and indira gandhi .

4:If israel posse any direct threat to PAKISTAN than tell them we are ready to kick your *** and we can as we have done before when ISRAEL and INDIA tried to attack on KAHUTA .
5: Be neutral with ISRAEL would be good policy for PAKISTAN and wait for right time to come .

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## mughaljee

ahmed said:


> 1:*Recognizing ISRAEL is extreme and making hostile realtions with ISREAL is again extreme tactic now .*
> 2:I am not in the favor of israel but first become strong than involve practically into Muslim world problems .
> 3: *Did any ARAB country or OIC practically supported PAKISTAN on KASHMIR ISSUE ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,answer is no* .please be realistic ,becoming emotional is not a wise thing .If ARAB countries try ,they can put pressure on INDIA for KASHMIR but instead they always make ties with INDIA example is YASIR ARAFAT realtions with india and indira gandhi .
> 
> 4:If israel posse any direct threat to PAKISTAN than tell them we are ready to kick your *** and we can as we have done before when ISRAEL and INDIA tried to attack on KAHUTA .
> 5: Be neutral with ISRAEL would be good policy for PAKISTAN and wait for right time to come .



Bahi Jaan , you are saying right, 
But, Ham nay Islam or Muslims ka Thaka liya hay(in good sence)
which you said above is totally right, but what about my heart & islamic lectures/studies, which saya, every muslim is like a wall----
therefore i said again--*Ham nay Islam or Muslims ka Thaka liya hay(in good sence)* and we and like us feel proud on this.


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## totach7

I can't understand where some of you here get the idea that someone in Israel consider to attack Pakistan . we don't see Pakistan as an enemy!!!
we respect your country and would welcome Pakistani leaders in Israel for peace talks . We think that Pakistan can play a roll in the creation of 2 states solution between us and the Palestinans. 
Some people here think the Arabs care about Pakistan than you are wrong. Most Arab nations do not care even for their palastinians brothers.
I think the Palastinains must decide whether they want to be radical bin ladden style country or modern Islamic nation. since 1948 and earlier they brought upon them nakba after nakba rejecting 2 states resolution from 1947 dreaming to send all Jews to the sea
Israel is willing to live in peace and will be forever the homeland of all Jews despite most members dream here in this hate forum!!!

IDF ARMOR

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## mughaljee

totach7 said:


> We think that Pakistan can play a roll in the creation of 2 states solution
> IDF ARMOR



This nation favourite play is "Cricket" so leave us with this game , we have no need to play wit Israel.


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## totach7

mughaljee said:


> This nation favourite play is "Cricket" so leave us with this game , we have no need to play wit Israel.



Is Pakistan good in cricket?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

totach7 said:


> Is Pakistan good in cricket?



No we just won world cup last year.

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## Kompromat

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No we just won world cup last year.



And got white washed by Aussies


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## pak-yes

Parashuram1 said:


> You think wars are so simple, don't you? Have you ever served even in a non-combatant role? Seriously, Apart from senior members like Mr. Muradk, there is rarely any tactic that has made sense in all the discussions that I have gone through.
> 
> Do you really think that making "plenty of cruise missiles" is as easy as putting a wad of flour on one side of the machine and get noodles on the other side?
> 
> In that case pray tell me:
> 
> 1) How are you going to cover the cost of making it?
> 2) Who is going to pay for all the units that you plan to export?
> 
> Currently your economy doesn't permit you do be in any position to donate missiles to other agencies or entities. If you were that loaded with cash, don't you think that Pakistani military would prefer buying those missiles for its own induction rather than wasting them on some other unwanted enemy?
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do you mean the same thing? If you are talking about Israeli agencies exporting defense equipments to New Delhi, I would like to show you here that in return, Israeli agencies get cold hard cash, billions from Indians. This gives Israel profitable revenues to continue manufacturing cutting-edge weaponry for themselves. What benefit in short or even medium term would Pakistani agencies gain by.. what did you call it? ahhh "producing numerous missiles and planting them around Israel".
> 
> 
> 
> And yet it produces maximum number of weapons and technology scientists around the world via other countries, has one of the most advanced indigenous defense industry and a military that would put many larger armed forces to shame. You forget the immense resources of Pentagon it has at its disposal
> 
> 
> 
> And you really think Mossad and CIA would be eating popcorn while Pakistani military intelligence is able to do that? Think practically my dear friend, Mossad despite limited resources is one of the most efficient intelligence agencies around the world. Coupled with CIA's impossible defense resources at their disposal, do you really think it is going to be that simple taking Israel a "hostage" and negotiating?
> 
> Any slightest sign of Israel weakening and United States along with God knows which all allies, will get into action. And in such a case, US won't be dealing with an unknown terrorist organization but a very familiar regular military of a country.
> 
> Now tell me, will your agencies prefer spending time guarding the nation against your main threat i.e. India or will they waste it over a country that officially poses them no threat, just over a perceived notion?
> 
> If you are interested in more details, ask some member currently serving in your armed forces (regardless of which service arm), to give you an in-depth analysis on what are the possible scenarios of a "Pakistan vs Israel". Let a serviceman explain you a more realistic battle scenario keeping your country's characteristics such as resources at disposal, manpower, efficiency and viability in mind.
> 
> Funny, someone even thanked you for such a post. Seriously!



You gave a good review of ISRAELI power and Pakistani Limitations.

But That Doesn't mean that we should just surrender before them.
After India also has been in a Position of Strength since Independence.
But that doesn't mean that we should just accepted Indian Supremacy.

After all it was Israel who first started the hostilities.Arabs are wrong and treat us Pakistanis and Indians like slaves.But if we do the same what difference is left between Us and Arabs.

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## Hayreddin

mughaljee said:


> Bahi Jaan , you are saying right,
> But, Ham nay Islam or Muslims ka Thaka liya hay(in good sence)
> which you said above is totally right, but what about my heart & islamic lectures/studies, which saya, every muslim is like a wall----
> therefore i said again--*Ham nay Islam or Muslims ka Thaka liya hay(in good sence)* and we and like us feel proud on this.




*Sabaq phir seekh adalat ka sadaqat ka shujat ka liya jaye ga&#65279; tujh say kam dunya ki immamat ka.*


then we have to become capable of this .we have potential but we did not utilize it fully .To lead MUSLIM UMMA ,we should have leadership qualities and capabilities .sirf passion say kaam nahi chalna meray bhai .

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## pak-yes

^^Absolutely right.100&#37;


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## Hyde

totach7 said:


> I can't understand where some of you here get the idea that someone in Israel consider to attack Pakistan . we don't see Pakistan as an enemy!!!
> we respect your country and would welcome Pakistani leaders in Israel for peace talks . We think that Pakistan can play a roll in the creation of 2 states solution between us and the Palestinans.
> Some people here think the Arabs care about Pakistan than you are wrong. Most Arab nations do not care even for their palastinians brothers.
> I think the Palastinains must decide whether they want to be radical bin ladden style country or modern Islamic nation. since 1948 and earlier they brought upon them nakba after nakba rejecting 2 states resolution from 1947 dreaming to send all Jews to the sea
> Israel is willing to live in peace and will be forever the homeland of all Jews despite most members dream here in this hate forum!!!
> 
> IDF ARMOR


i heard not all jews are in the favour of existance of Israel.......... is that true?

i heard some of them thinks The whole world is for Jews so they can live anywhere they like and making countries, they do not like that

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## pak-yes

Yup i think there are Jews not in favour of Israel.

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## Hayreddin

They are in the favor of making *GREATER ISRAEL *


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## pak-yes

IDK just heard that they say that they must live separated.A jew could tell better on this matter.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Every one wants to live in peace but , normally they are sileced by other people in their own community with tags such as un patriotic etc ...


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## zavis2003

forgive your enemies but remember there names


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## Hyde

ahmed said:


> They are in the favor of making *GREATER ISRAEL *



no only the Zionists Jews believes in Greater Israel....... if i am not wrong i can remember one Jew who was not in the favour of Israel (can't remember exactly but i probably seen his video couple of years back or probably just a illusion in my mind)


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pakistan doesnot need more enemies but rather more friends or more neutrals---israel is not pakistan's enemy---and neither is it pakistan govt's official stand---otoh---pak leaders have sent out friendly overtures to the israelis and had quite a few meeintgs with them to find common grounds.

Pakistan needs someone like Sadaat to take that leap of faith---pakistanis don't realize that the palestinians had already made their decision to what they wanted at the camp David summit---when arafat walked out of it, because he couldnot get the remaining 10 &#37; of what he wanted---.

It for sure is tragic and traumatic to see all those dead palestinian young ones ---but that could have been avoided if pakistan had been forceful with palestine to make peace with israel---Sadaat asked Arafat to come with him to negotiate with israel---he would have gotten so much more at that time in the 70's---but no---Arafat's ego was bigger that his mojo---.

Time is against palestine---someone posted a map of the shrinkage of palestine and palestinian boundary line over the years---that map teels the true story---it tells you about the winner mentality and the loosers mentality---.

It also tells you that when you are thick headed and don't listen and learn and accept what is in front of your face---the magnitude of the loss is multiplied.

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## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan doesnot need more enemies but rather more friends or more neutrals---israel is not pakistan's enemy---and neither is it pakistan govt's official stand---otoh---pak leaders have sent out friendly overtures to the israelis and had quite a few meeintgs with them to find common grounds.
> 
> Pakistan needs someone like Sadaat to take that leap of faith---pakistanis don't realize that the palestinians had already made their decision to what they wanted at the camp David summit---when arafat walked out of it, because he couldnot get the remaining 10 % of what he wanted---.
> 
> It for sure is tragic and traumatic to see all those dead palestinian young ones ---but that could have been avoided if pakistan had been forceful with palestine to make peace with israel---Sadaat asked Arafat to come with him to negotiate with israel---he would have gotten so much more at that time in the 70's---but no---Arafat's ego was bigger that his mojo---.
> 
> Time is against palestine---someone posted a map of the shrinkage of palestine and palestinian boundary line over the years---that map teels the true story---it tells you about the winner mentality and the loosers mentality---.
> 
> It also tells you that when you are thick headed and don't listen and learn and accept what is in front of your face---the magnitude of the loss is multiplied.




Can our Friendship with Israel stop them from Killing Palestinians by Phosphorus Bombs??


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## pak-yes

Absolutely Not.


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## totach7

Black blood said:


> Can our Friendship with Israel stop them from Killing Palestinians by Phosphorus Bombs??



"killing Palestinians" are the most favorite words here in the
forum..... well stop being blind one sided: Palestinians are killing Israelis for 100 years now
children and elders . firing their stupid Kassam rockets on civilian
town blowing buses and trying to make Palestine a radical binladenstan

Pakistan should back Israel and ABU MAZZEN in order
to create moderate Palestine aside Israel before Pakistan
itself will be Pakibinladenstan


http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/:tup:


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## Hyde

totach7 said:


> "killing Palestinians" are the most favorite words here in the
> forum..... well stop being blind one sided: Palestinians are killing Israelis for 100 years now
> children and elders . firing their stupid Kassam rockets on civilian
> town blowing buses and trying to make Palestine a radical binladenstan
> 
> Pakistan should back Israel and ABU MAZZEN in order
> to create moderate Palestine aside Israel before Pakistan
> itself will be Pakibinladenstan
> 
> 
> http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/:tup:



yes may be they fire 1 rocket.... but then in response Israel kills 100s of peoples in attack 

@ Pakistan and Israel Relationships

If you ever get to see the passport of Pakistan..... you will find written "This passport is valid for all countries except Israel" they do not even mind travelling to its worst enemy India..... but they do not allow Pakistani citizens to travel to Israel

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> "killing Palestinians" are the most favorite words here in the forum.....



Yes we are bad Humans as we have an epidemic of speaking the truth.


> well stop being blind one sided: Palestinians are killing Israelis for 100 years now



With what? oh i forgot Palestinians possess WMD's.









> children and elders . firing their stupid Kassam rockets on civilian










> town blowing buses and trying to make Palestine a radical binladenstan



Which would be way better than a Zionist Israel.



> Pakistan should back Israel and ABU MAZZEN







> in order to create moderate Palestine aside Israel


They are already Quite Moderate & way better than Israeli Nazis.



> before Pakistan itself will be Pakibinladenstan

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## pak-yes

> before Pakistan
> itself will be Pakibinladenstan



Hey Few Posts before you were saying PEACE PEACE.Well finally your inner self came out.




> If you ever get to see the passport of Pakistan..... you will find written "This passport is valid for all countries except Israel" they do not even mind travelling to its worst enemy India..... but they do not allow Pakistani citizens to travel to Israel



Ya when i first time say i was also a little bit curious.I was 6 or 7 at that time and i had been told that our only enemy is India.So i thought hey what is this Israel.But well soon i knew why it was written.

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## Kompromat

Black blood said:


> Can our Friendship with Israel stop them from Killing Palestinians by Phosphorus Bombs??




*Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon

By Meron Rappaport, Haaretz Correspondent*


Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

The announcement that the Israel Defense Forces had used phosphorus bombs in the war in Lebanon was made by Minister Jacob Edery, in charge of government-Knesset relations. He had been queried on the matter by MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz-Yahad).

"The IDF holds phosphorus munitions in different forms," Edery said. "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."


Advertisement



Edery also pointed out that international law does not forbid the use of phosphorus and that "the IDF used this type of munitions according to the rules of international law."

Edery did not specify where and against what types of targets phosphorus munitions were used. During the war several foreign media outlets reported that Lebanese civilians carried injuries characteristic of attacks with phosphorus, a substance that burns when it comes to contact with air. In one CNN report, a casualty with serious burns was seen lying in a South Lebanon hospital.

In another case, Dr. Hussein Hamud al-Shel, who works at Dar al-Amal hospital in Ba'albek, said that he had received three corpses "entirely shriveled with black-green skin," a phenomenon characteristic of phosphorus injuries.

Lebanon's President Emile Lahoud also claimed that the IDF made use of phosphorus munitions against civilians in Lebanon.

Phosphorus has been used by armies since World War I. During World War II and Vietnam the U.S. and British armies made extensive use of phosphorus. During recent decades the tendency has been to ban the use of phosphorus munitions against any target, civilian or military, because of the severity of the injuries that the substance causes.

Some experts believe that phosphorus munitions should be termed Chemical Weapons (CW) because of the way the weapons burn and attack the respiratory system. As a CW, phosphorus would become a clearly illegal weapon.

The International Red Cross is of the opinion that there should be a complete ban on phosphorus being used against human beings and the third protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons restricts the use of "incendiary weapons," with phosphorus considered to be one such weapon.

Israel and the United States are not signatories to the Third Protocol.

In November 2004 the U.S. Army used phosphorus munitions during an offensive in Faluja, Iraq. Burned bodies of civilians hit by the phosphorus munitions were shown by the press, and an international outcry against the practice followed.

Initially the U.S. denied that it had used phosphorus bombs against humans, but then acknowledged that during the assault targets that were neither civilian nor population concentrations were hit with such munitions. Israel also says that the use of "incendiary munitions are not in themselves illegal."

Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon - Haaretz - Israel News

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> Pakistan should back Israel and ABU MAZZEN



Pick your Glasses and read carefully.









> *before Pakistan itself will be Pakibinladenstan*



Repeat it one more time & i can promise you would be Banned.

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## MastanKhan

Black blood said:


> *
> @ Sir MastanKhan , do i have your opinion ???*


*


Hi,

Yes you may----( you don't need to call me sir ---I do appreciate the respect though)---60's, 70's 80's or the 90's---did anyone have any doubts that every time palestine had oppurtuinity for peace and it walked out of it or never went that way---the palestinians came out bigger looser---except the exponential of loss increased by multitudes.

My good kid----if you keep making blundering mistakes in strategy and where there are a lots of people who are there to support you in the begining---a time comes that their support wanes away, their sympathy disappears, their support of your cause is no more, the death of your people is least of their concern---your children are incinerated by phospourus bombs and the world has no sympathy left no more---that is the time for you to realize that you are doomed for eons----that all of your decisions have been screwups of the ultimate protortions. You have to stop and think real serious---is there really really any limit to my gross negligence in understanding the strengths of my enemy and my weaknesses------that is the time indeed, that one rolls over the barrell of their rifle and shoot their brains out.

These were the same people who cried rivers at a single death in your corner----now they care less if a thousand of your children die---. So---think about it---who is the loser over here, son.

I have been thinking about this issue all day long today and I have reached the conclusion that when making a peace deal---you need to assess the character of the adversary first of all and then possibly who may succeed him---who are the people who maybe in line for succession in the near and far future---that will make your decision easy----.

If you look at the history of peace deal with the israelis and egypt palestine---you see that mostly it were the millitary men who were ready to make peace---from Ben Gurion to Yitzhak Rabin---Ehud Barak to Sharon---it was these generals who were ready to sit and make it happen---but you can't make it happen with bibi---Netanyahu---you know why---.

All those generals had their fair share of killing the arabs and palestinians---as millitary men they cherished their combat victories---they had their fill of dead enemies---they wanted to leave a legacy---. As ruthless and brutal Sharon was---he was still ready to make peace against all the opposition from home---.

I don't know if the arabs and palestinians realized what to make of Netanyahu---a politician---a hawk---a man who had not killed like his predecessors---I would fear that man more than Sharon, Barak, Rabin or Ben Gurion---.

Live and learn my boy---live and learn---palestinians have lost all positions of strength they had---they have signed their own death warrants---they had better chances with retd generals---against the politicians, they are minced / singed meat.*

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## pak-yes

^^ohhh it means we can't do anything for Palestinians.


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## MastanKhan

pak-yes said:


> ^^ohhh it means we can't do anything for Palestinians.



Hi,

Who are 'WE'---they had ample oppurtunities to make ammends---we need to first get our house straight.

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## Desert Fox

self delete


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## Desert Fox

Black blood said:


> Pick your Glasses and read carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeat it one more time & i can promise you would be Banned.



Hey uh guys, how do i post pictures up?


----------



## totach7

Black blood said:


> Pick your Glasses and read carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repeat it one more time & i can promise you would be Banned.




repeat what? pakibinladenstan? you will fit in with your hate

http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/


----------



## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes you may----( you don't need to call me sir ---I do appreciate the respect though)---60's, 70's 80's or the 90's---did anyone have any doubts that every time palestine had oppurtuinity for peace and it walked out of it or never went that way---the palestinians came out bigger looser---except the exponential of loss increased by multitudes.
> 
> My good kid----if you keep making blundering mistakes in strategy and where there are a lots of people who are there to support you in the begining---a time comes that their support wanes away, their sympathy disappears, their support of your cause is no more, the death of your people is least of their concern---your children are incinerated by phospourus bombs and the world has no sympathy left no more---that is the time for you to realize that you are doomed for eons----that all of your decisions have been screwups of the ultimate protortions. You have to stop and think real serious---is there really really any limit to my gross negligence in understanding the strengths of my enemy and my weaknesses------that is the time indeed, that one rolls over the barrell of their rifle and shoot their brains out.
> 
> These were the same people who cried rivers at a single death in your corner----now they care less if a thousand of your children die---. So---think about it---who is the loser over here, son.
> 
> I have been thinking about this issue all day long today and I have reached the conclusion that when making a peace deal---you need to assess the character of the adversary first of all and then possibly who may succeed him---who are the people who maybe in line for succession in the near and far future---that will make your decision easy----.
> 
> If you look at the history of peace deal with the israelis and egypt palestine---you see that mostly it were the millitary men who were ready to make peace---from Ben Gurion to Yitzhak Rabin---Ehud Barak to Sharon---it was these generals who were ready to sit and make it happen---but you can't make it happen with bibi---Netanyahu---you know why---.
> 
> All those generals had their fair share of killing the arabs and palestinians---as millitary men they cherished their combat victories---they had their fill of dead enemies---they wanted to leave a legacy---. As ruthless and brutal Sharon was---he was still ready to make peace against all the opposition from home---.
> 
> I don't know if the arabs and palestinians realized what to make of Netanyahu---a politician---a hawk---a man who had not killed like his predecessors---I would fear that man more than Sharon, Barak, Rabin or Ben Gurion---.
> 
> Live and learn my boy---live and learn---palestinians have lost all positions of strength they had---they have signed their own death warrants---they had better chances with retd generals---against the politicians, they are minced / singed meat.




I have similar thoughts but in the end of the day the Least we can do is to Condemn these acts.

Yesterday i was having a meal at a Lebanese Restaurant where i met a Palestinian who asked me a question " What Pakistan has done for Palestine ? " .

I felt shocked and ashamed , thought about it for the whole night and came to a conclusion "Who are we??? , Do we have power to Take back Palestine by Force ?? Do we trust our own Leaders?? 

What have we achieved as a Nation? the Answer is negative "

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## Desert Fox

totach7 said:


> repeat what? pakibinladenstan? *you will fit in with your hate*
> 
> IDF ARMOR




What do you expect us to do? love you?

If someone kicked me out of my home and drove a bulldozer over it and claimed its their land because 2,000-3,000 years ago their ancestors lived there (*makes no d@mn sense how this gives you an excuse to kick people out of their land and illegally occupy it?*) i would fight back and die fighting, its a God Given right!

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## Desert Fox

*How do i post pictures?*


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## Kompromat

SilentNinja said:


> *How do i post pictures?*



Copy the link of that picture and paste it in Picture URL link in the message box.


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## Desert Fox

Black blood said:


> Copy the link of that picture and paste it in Picture URL link in the message box.




Thanks, i got it


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## pak-yes

Please All respectable members DO NOT POST THESE GRAPHIC IMAGES.

I cant bear the courage to see them.


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## totach7

Listen Kid , This Forum belongs to Pakistan and if you come here to insult my Nation and Calling bad names then i must WARN you to straight your head before we do !!

This forum is not full of fans of Israel & your Brutality so STFU and do not call any bad Names to Pakistan .


You will soon be given Treatment.

nice words by black blood

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## Kompromat

pak-yes said:


> Please All respectable members DO NOT POST THESE GRAPHIC IMAGES.
> 
> I cant bear the courage to see them.



you are too good to exist in this age of brutality .

All that you see are just few of those examples what these zionists are doing in the holy land.

Then they come to PDF and cry for peace which is their normal bollshit propeganda and then they get exposed by Silentninja and Black blood and this is where they get obssessed at Pakistan and call it bad names and yet expect respect from us.

Barking dog seldom bites someone has said but few dogs do not bark before they bite but they do it after. Gotta look out for these Morons..

Regards.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> Listen Kid , This Forum belongs to Pakistan and if you come here to insult my Nation and Calling bad names then i must WARN you to straight your head before we do !!
> 
> This forum is not full of fans of Israel & your Brutality so STFU and do not call any bad Names to Pakistan .
> 
> 
> You will soon be given Treatment.
> 
> nice words by black blood



what else do you expect from us , Roses???

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## Solomon2

I'd like this thread kept open a bit longer, please.

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## lionheartsalahudin



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## TANOLI1

_ israiel & bloody indai always claim on Pakistan,i think it's time go & got pieces,,,what wrong dear,, _


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Please don't post graphics image - we must find ways to end conflicts and suffering - there is no other way

a) There is no denying innocent are dieing
b) There is no denying that world as a society is failing in its effort

But the debate should be how can such images be thing of past - and not cause for future conflicts

Every one must support a 2 state resolution to Israel/Palestine , and UN can broker peace for 10-20 years so ppl can just start to live their lives

Unless there is a strong reaction from nations with militaries to help sort things out , the stonger army will continue to be the agresssor.

Unless there is broader acceptance , ok look , both parties ca co exist may be seperated by barriers but they can coexist and share the holy land give it under UN watch , and police - I am sure we can find meaningful ways to have people visit all holy lands in peace 

That is what the places should represent PEACEFUL location on earth not blood zones and courtyard for devil where blood and suffering prevails every year...sooner of later ppl must show they can exist - together


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## Kompromat

*The Graphic Images would be Posted , if someone does not have Balls to look at them then how they can even possibly "Understand" the true Nature of Israeli Zionists.

World must not close their eyes on Israel's Barbarism because today it is us tomorrow it would be Them this is a Rule of God the Great.

*

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## Desert Fox

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Please don't post graphics image - we must find ways to end conflicts and suffering - there is no other way
> 
> a) There is no denying innocent are dieing
> b) There is no denying that world as a society is failing in its effort
> 
> But the debate should be how can such images be thing of past - and not cause for future conflicts
> 
> Every one must support a 2 state resolution to Israel/Palestine , and UN can broker peace for 10-20 years so ppl can just start to live their lives
> 
> Unless there is a strong reaction from nations with militaries to help sort things out , the stonger army will continue to be the agresssor.
> 
> Unless there is broader acceptance , ok look , both parties ca co exist may be seperated by barriers but they can coexist and share the holy land give it under UN watch , and police - I am sure we can find meaningful ways to have people visit all holy lands in peace
> 
> That is what the places should represent PEACEFUL location on earth not blood zones and courtyard for devil where blood and suffering prevails every year...sooner of later ppl must show they can exist - together



Sorry, but how many times have there been negotiations in the past? and how many times have these negotiations worked? *0*


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Negotiations need negotiators, when you post a passport with statment 

"You cannot travel to Israel with this passport" how insulting is it to the other country

Its a point to be noted

Now , for negotiation you need a place to start 

a) How about 20,000 UN peace force, to go guard the check points
so there are new clashes at checkpoints

b) How about food / shelter and rebuilding of Gaza infrastructure

c) How about opening up the ports - at Gaza, and investment in 
occupied territories

Can Pakistan / Iran/ Saudia make a joint effort to sit down with Israel face to face and seek a resolution , can we get out of our own personal conflicts to have a joint effort to resolve the issue ? Its not hard just need a sincere effort 

I think its doable - there are also progressive Jews just like there are pro peace ... 

"NO ONE CAN DENY the deaths" 

But are all the jews - in Israel Army - evil certaily not - some don't even want to be in that spot ... who knows...

Negotiations fail due to these reasons

a) When ever progress is made, elements in Jewish side , who don't 
want peace, they killed 2-3 Palestinians, and then Palestinians do 
what they always do they shoot some Qassam Rockets - and then
all peace efforts are derails

All it takes is 1-2 extremist Jews/Muslims to shoot/qassam rocket fire
and whole hell breaks lose 

Is that faul of people who do sincerely want peace? NO... 

b) This is why patience is important but also , a strong joint delegate 
should raise the issue , to solve the crisis -with in 2-3 year time 
frame

Or else you send in Your Navy Ships to open the blockade of GAZA

Its VERY simple ... someone has to go there and literally open the 
blockade, be it china/Pakistan/Russia/Saudia/Iran - EU ... 

You need a strong character that can go to Israel, sit down and 
discuss it frankly - lets move on... 

The whole Bycotte approach kinda does not works 


"If that place is really that HOLY" then why does blood spills every day on its street ... 
why does no one ever realizes this ?? 

I find it facinating that Muslims used to pray towards Jaruselem , but one day Mohammad had a vision , and he was prompted to pray towards Macca , isn't it facinatig that our prophet had a vision , perhaps he saw the blood shed in his vision and he told muslims to Pray towards Macca? Is that a hint to muslims who knows...

What does it tells Muslims what is more important - 

Peace is achived when you can show love for the other party's families their children , and then they also return the same - 

No one is an angel - what we need is to start from clean slate - 

Our leaders (Pakistan/Iran/Saudia/UAE /Egypt) meet Israel face to face in summit and we discuss joint effort under UN to resolve crisis , and may be discuss a UN peace froce in Jeruselum ... that is the only point remaining - UN can monitor it 

Its just a police force ???


----------



## Kompromat

^^ No Negotiations will succeed as they do not want them to!! Just look at their track record.

They would try to Take Pakistan's Nukes that they can Attack and establish their Promised holy Land according to biblical prophecies , which includes many arab countries.

Once done this is where their Messieh (Kaana Dijal) will come out.


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## totach7

StealthQL-707PK said:


> *Moderator, please click this buttoon..*



An easy way to stay blind.one sided

I can show here pictures of our children and others killed in 100 years of cowards teror of the so called palesinians freedom fighters
you think there is one side of the story this thread is about
Pakistan and Israel ......hold your blind hate speak to the subject

I dont need respect from extremists fanatic members
Israel will be forever whether you like it or not

and by the way Pakistan general at the time Zia Ul Haq
took part in killing 20000 palestinains in one week
in whats known to be black september
Do you have pictures of that event
go to the books learn the history and come back
with knowledge 





IDF ARMOR


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## Sinnerman108

Black blood said:


> ^^ No Negotiations will succeed as they do not want them to!! Just look at their track record.
> 
> They would try to Take Pakistan's Nukes that they can Attack and establish their Promised holy Land according to biblical prophecies , which includes many arab countries.
> 
> Once done this is where their Messieh (Kaana Dijal) will come out.



Fully agreed with BlackBlood.
No one can win from the Jews when it comes to clever deception.
They will take one argument and start twisting it right left ....
remember
Should the heifer be red ?
should it be young ?
Should it be like this, like that ....

It is Jewish nature since beginning.

So best not to talk, just deal with them "pragmatically"

MODS!
I would like to see two more icons in here, The Palestinian flag
and the Taliban flag.

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## mughaljee

@ Sir MastanKhan 
You have many words, your are genious, what ever you have,
but, 
When the matter comes with Iseral , please don't advise, don't play with our feeling, One more thing, Did you remember still , Saabra & Shatila Camps genoside. ?

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## MastanKhan

Black blood said:


> I have similar thoughts but in the end of the day the Least we can do is to Condemn these acts.
> 
> Yesterday i was having a meal at a Lebanese Restaurant where i met a Palestinian who asked me a question " What Pakistan has done for Palestine ? " .
> 
> I felt shocked and ashamed , thought about it for the whole night and came to a conclusion "Who are we??? , Do we have power to Take back Palestine by Force ?? Do we trust our own Leaders??
> 
> What have we achieved as a Nation? the Answer is negative "





Hi,

There is no doubt that there ought to be condemnation of these acts---on that we are together.

As for the palestinian---I would say to him---I guess nothing---he has enough misery of his own. Why must you be ashamed of anything---did you walk out of the summit at camp David---or did you ask Arafat no to go meet the israelis with Sadaat---my man---what have we done to be ashamed of---we have done everything possible that we could---it is there own scr--ew ups that put them where they are.



Mughaljee,

I don't know what to make of your post---I never advice anyone---I just share my experience and information---and never play with anyone's feelings---that would be the last thing I would do---but people need to get out in the open more often.

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## FreekiN

9/11 was a conspiracy set up by the Jewish space lizards to acquire the Jew gold of every Jew in the twin towers the day of 9/11 to fund more Jewish conspiracies.

Prove me wrong.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> An easy way to stay blind.one sided



This style of debate was originated in the Zionist state?



> I can show here pictures of our children and others killed in 100 years of cowards teror of the so called palesinians freedom fighters



Every action has a Reaction , what happens when the Zionist Terrorists go out there and Bomb people with Apaches ??



> you think there is one side of the story this thread is about
> Pakistan and Israel ......hold your blind hate speak to the subject



Who brought Zia ul Haq in the debate ?? Was it me or a stupid Zionist ?



> I dont need respect from extremists fanatic members



Who offered respect BTW  We do not respect "Animals"



> Israel will be forever whether you like it or not



I have no problem with Israel but an Israel with an Independent Palestinian state only. 



> and by the way Pakistan general at the time Zia Ul Haq
> took part in killing 20000 palestinains in one week
> in whats known to be black september



You guys are propaganda masters.



> Do you have pictures of that event
> go to the books learn the history and come back
> with knowledge



Do you own your Private library or what ?







> IDF ARMOR



Stop posting this stupid Blog.

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## Kompromat

*Worths Watching*

Do not forget to rate the video.

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## Kompromat

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no doubt that there ought to be condemnation of these acts---on that we are together.
> 
> As for the palestinian---I would say to him---I guess nothing---he has enough misery of his own. Why must you be ashamed of anything---did you walk out of the summit at camp David---or did you ask Arafat no to go meet the israelis with Sadaat---my man---what have we done to be ashamed of---we have done everything possible that we could---it is there own scr--ew ups that put them where they are.
> 
> 
> 
> Mughaljee,
> 
> I don't know what to make of your post---I never advice anyone---I just share my experience and information---and never play with anyone's feelings---that would be the last thing I would do---but people need to get out in the open more often.




Sir with due respect i do follow your lines but i think one must not be punished just because they walked out of a summit .

May be it was not good for them as they have got their own goal to achieve and what Pakistan should do is to help them in all ways.

I would not mind if we sale Lebanon some weapons , Just my opinion.

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## MastanKhan

Black blood said:


> Sir with due respect i do follow your lines but i think one must not be punished just because they walked out of a summit .
> 
> May be it was not good for them as they have got their own goal to achieve and what Pakistan should do is to help them in all ways.
> 
> I would not mind if we sale Lebanon some weapons , Just my opinion.





Please Gentleman,

Is there a thinking that maybe it was a high school gaming session that one team decided to take their bat and ball home---.

How difficult is it to understand the consequences of failures---not once---not twice---but countless times---that is what happens when one nation has superior weapons than yours---it has a better media than yours---it has better financial control---.

I am talking about what happened and what the resulting outcome was---. In anegotiation---you have built up a team---which tell you what you can get today as compared to what you may get tomorrow---they also tell you if it is the ripe time to make a deal or not---is your opponent the right person to deal with---what is up in the horizon---.

When someone has their own goals---then let them live and enjoy the results as well---------.

A general statement----pakistanis talk very big------in your own daily lives at home---how often you keep supporting your dfriends, cousins etc who sc--rew up everytime---never heed to your advice---never listen to what you have to say---then what do you do---you tell them---sc-rew you---you to your own and you move away---.

Why this about face with palestinians---the truth is that we should have kicked than right in the ar-se real hard when they refused to go to summit with Sadaat---we should have blasted them to kingdom come for not making their demands----.

Go Tell that palestinian---we are sorry---we should have held your feet to the fire and made you sit and make peace 37 years ago---we again missed ou and should have forced you to make peace at camp David---and when you walked out---we should have totally condemned you for youir actions and put you to shame for what you didnot do----yes we are at fault.

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## Desert Fox

totach7 said:


> *An easy way to stay blind.one sided
> 
> I can show here pictures of our children and others killed in 100 years of cowards teror of the so called palesinians freedom fighters*



The Palestinian's don't have F-16's, Apache's, Merkeva tanks, APC's, Gunboats, and Naval ships to blockade israel! *BTW, israel only existed for some 60 years so don't blame Palestinians for the genocide committed against Jews by hitler!*



totach7 said:


> I dont need respect from extremists fanatic members
> Israel will be forever whether you like it or not



We don't want to respect child killers! All this western and American propaganda against Taliban and Muslims countries oppressing innocent lives and sponsoring terrorism is complete BS, when in fact U.K and American themselves have been supporting a terrorist regime!

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## FreekiN

OH THAT TERROR! I SEE IT NOW!

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## moving_ahead

courageneverdies said:


> Rameez, why not we discuss about you and welcome you.
> 
> Traditionally, all members have to introduce themselves.
> 
> Members Introduction - Pakistan Defence Forum
> 
> See you there.
> 
> KIT Over



FIRST OF ALL THE IMPRESION U GIVE TO MY MIND IS TOTALY RACIST BANI ISRAELI ,,THE WAY U GET ON RAMEEZ IS RACIST TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF,,,WAT INTRODUCTION U NEED AS HE IS PAKISTANI FIRST OF ALL...U MUST COMENT AT FORUM RIGHT AWAY RATHER TALKING GARBISH,,,

NEXT AS WE ARE MUSLIM U KNW BEST WAT ISLAM HAS TEACH US ABOUT YAHOODO NISARA..OTHER THING UR NOT KID TO TEACH U FURTHER...MR KHAN

WHY CANT WE MAKE TECHNOLOGY COMPARISON TO OTHER COUNTRY ...


----------



## MastanKhan

moving_ahead said:


> FIRST OF ALL THE IMPRESION U GIVE TO MY MIND IS TOTALY RACIST BANI ISRAELI ,,THE WAY U GET ON RAMEEZ IS RACIST TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF,,,WAT INTRODUCTION U NEED AS HE IS PAKISTANI FIRST OF ALL...U MUST COMENT AT FORUM RIGHT AWAY RATHER TALKING GARBISH,,,
> 
> NEXT AS WE ARE MUSLIM U KNW BEST WAT ISLAM HAS TEACH US ABOUT YAHOODO NISARA..OTHER THING UR NOT KID TO TEACH U FURTHER...MR KHAN
> 
> WHY CANT WE MAKE TECHNOLOGY COMPARISON TO OTHER COUNTRY ...





Mister,

Respect the dignity of the forum and members---a muslim---when entering someone's house, honors the dignity of that place first and foremost---he doesnot badger the residents of his religious reighgteousness---.

This teaching of islam that you are talking about----please use it in retrospect in your personal relations as well and how the guests or fresh arrivals need to act in a new place.

Don't start lecturing about islam right from gitgo---.

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## totach7

FreekiN said:


> OH THAT TERROR! I SEE IT NOW!




I wonder what would be Pakistan reaction to Rocket attack against its towns
by anyone or any country!!!!





http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/

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## 1000VA

FreekiN said:


> 9/11 was a conspiracy set up by the Jewish space lizards to acquire the Jew gold of every Jew in the twin towers the day of 9/11 to fund more Jewish conspiracies.
> 
> Prove me wrong.



with no offense buddy
Lol You came with a mad logic and telling us to prove it wrong 
I think no one from this from can prove it wrong because you wont accept anything against it....


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## Tiger Awan

totach7 said:


> I wonder what would be Pakistan reaction to Rocket attack against its towns
> by anyone or any country!!!!



If you think some human lives in Gaza do think about their children being subjected to rocket attacks.

If you think they are HUMANS

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## PWFI

Who have allowed israelis on PAKISTAN DEFENCE!
ISRALIS have nothing to do their!


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think its good to engage Israelis , there is no harm not all Israelis are pro concentration camps /weapons

There are alot of Israelis that do demonstrate against their own gov they do the charitable work in Palestinian side risking their lives - 

*Good exists in all areas of life* , so talking and engaging ppl is important 

Infact I feel the sonner our nation engages Israel , perhaps we can find a permenent solution to conflict 

It all starts with taking steps towards each other

My idea would be simple

*Phase 1:*
Pakistan/KSA/Iran/Kuwait/UAE/Qater/Syria all will neutralize the relation with Israel , trust building phase 1 year - Delegates visit openly every month for 12 year, and process begins 


*Phase 2: *
Creation of UN office in Jeruselem deployment of 12,500 UN police force 
Every one takes turn to visit holy sites , I believe all of the religions have their own 
special day

UN will monitor , security - Israeli defence personnel will go back to their border security
Weapons would be banned from entering the holy city

*Phase 3:* 
Creation of Palestine to coexist with Israel and declaration of peace for 20 years
Dessolving of Hisbolla, and creation of democrative party of Palestine / Conservative party of Palestine


*Pase 3.5*
Major donation from EU/USA/Middle east to fix the infrastructure create jobs for Palestinians

Trade normalization between Middle east/Pakistan/Iran and Israel - 

*Phase 4: *
No war pact between Arabs/Iranians -Israelis - end of conflict -*ban on hate in schools and ban on images from past focus on developing future with no blood shed*

Instead - 

Unified "Celebration day for both Israelis/Palestine" so they can all celebrate freedom from bloodshed together - 

UN permenently monitors Jeruslem , its open to christians/muslims/Jews -

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## Kompromat

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think its good to engage Israelis , there is no harm not all Israelis are pro concentration camps /weapons
> 
> There are alot of Israelis that do demonstrate against their own gov they do the charitable work in Palestinian side risking their lives -
> 
> *Good exists in all areas of life* , so talking and engaging ppl is important
> 
> Infact I feel the sonner our nation engages Israel , perhaps we can find a permenent solution to conflict
> 
> It all starts with taking steps towards each other
> 
> My idea would be simple
> 
> *Phase 1:*
> Pakistan/KSA/Iran/Kuwait/UAE/Qater/Syria all will neutralize the relation with Israel , trust building phase 1 year - Delegates visit openly every month for 12 year, and process begins
> 
> 
> *Phase 2: *
> Creation of UN office in Jeruselem deployment of 12,500 UN police force
> Every one takes turn to visit holy sites , I believe all of the religions have their own
> special day
> 
> UN will monitor , security - Israeli defence personnel will go back to their border security
> Weapons would be banned from entering the holy city
> 
> *Phase 3:*
> Creation of Palestine to coexist with Israel and declaration of peace for 20 years
> Dessolving of Hisbolla, and creation of democrative party of Palestine / Conservative party of Palestine
> 
> 
> *Pase 3.5*
> Major donation from EU/USA/Middle east to fix the infrastructure create jobs for Palestinians
> 
> Trade normalization between Middle east/Pakistan/Iran and Israel -
> 
> *Phase 4: *
> No war pact between Arabs/Iranians -Israelis - end of conflict -*ban on hate in schools and ban on images from past focus on developing future with no blood shed*
> 
> Instead -
> 
> Unified "Celebration day for both Israelis/Palestine" so they can all celebrate freedom from bloodshed together -
> 
> UN permenently monitors Jeruslem , its open to christians/muslims/Jews -




*Sweet Dreams my dear brother , i am sure we both will live to see it happening .

But we would have to have Noah's Age.*


----------



## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> I wonder what would be Pakistan reaction to Rocket attack against its towns
> by anyone or any country!!!!



We do not go and "Hunt" on humans so we would never face rocket attacks .

If you are Talking about the bombings in Pakistan then you must ask your Mosaad , they might have the answer.

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## Kompromat



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## FreekiN

totach7 said:


> I wonder what would be Pakistan reaction to Rocket attack against its towns
> by anyone or any country!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR



Well, we wouldn't fight terror with terror, that's for sure. Unless we get some kind of mad dictator, but hopefully that won't happen ever again.

No offense man, I know your a good guy and all but it's just your government and it's actions we do not like.

Thanks.


----------



## zraver

Black blood said:


> Sir with due respect i do follow your lines but i think one must not be punished just because they walked out of a summit .



They were not punished for walking out, but for what they did after walking out.



> May be it was not good for them as they have got their own goal to achieve and what Pakistan should do is to help them in all ways.



Then work for peace and oppose Iran's arming of groups whose attacks just invite reprisals that lead to more hatred and killing...



> I would not mind if we sale Lebanon some weapons , Just my opinion.



Might as well just give them to Iran and Syria.

Why would a Pakistani give a rats-*** about an Arab? Look at the way Arabs treat Pakistani workers. Look at the misery the Al Queda Arabs brought to Pakistan. Every barrel of oil from KSA comes with a wahabist nutjob. Pakistani lives have guarded Syria and still Guard KSA, but the nearest Arab to Pakistan's enemies is safely sitting in his desert sands.

The two nations that have stood by Pakistan the most have been China (Godless communists) and the USA (Christians and Jews). Why exactly would you care about any Arab?


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## TaimiKhan

zraver said:


> The two nations that have stood by Pakistan the most have been China (Godless communists) and the USA (Christians and Jews). Why exactly would you care about any Arab?



These Godless communists have stood by us no matter what, when even the USA (Christians & Jews) left us to rot. 

USA (Christians & Jews) have never stood by us, it has always used us for its own purpose. When that purpose is achieved, they ditch as usual. 

So those Godless communists are much better then the Christians & Jews.

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## jeypore

Rameez Usmani said:


> *Lets discuss the capabilities of Pakistani forces in comparison with Israeli forces.*
> 
> Some sources told me that Pakistan has a missile which can directly hit Israel. Is it right ?....



Call me Stupid, that Israelies thinking about Pakistans destruction.


----------



## zraver

taimikhan said:


> These Godless communists have stood by us no matter what, when even the USA (Christians & Jews) left us to rot.
> 
> USA (Christians & Jews) have never stood by us, it has always used us for its own purpose. When that purpose is achieved, they ditch as usual.
> 
> So those Godless communists are much better then the Christians & Jews.



And you missed the point, both have done more for Pakistan than the Arabs, so why a loyalty to a cause not yours? I am sure the Arabs would be as happy to kill your countrymen via Israeli weapons as they are to kill them via slavery brutality and bone crushing labor....


----------



## kidwaibhai

zraver said:


> And you missed the point, both have done more for Pakistan than the Arabs, so why a loyalty to a cause not yours? I am sure the Arabs would be as happy to kill your countrymen via Israeli weapons as they are to kill them via slavery brutality and bone crushing labor....



Its not only an arab cause its also a muslim cause because of Masjid-e-alaqsa. That is why so many pakistanis react in such a way. Its a very emotional topic.

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## TaimiKhan

zraver said:


> And you missed the point, both have done more for Pakistan than the Arabs, so why a loyalty to a cause not yours? I am sure the Arabs would be as happy to kill your countrymen via Israeli weapons as they are to kill them via slavery brutality and bone crushing labor....



Am not defending the arabs, I am countering your argument that US has stood by us, which it hasn't ever nor it will ever. 

As for Arabs, its better i don't say anything but they are no different then the US & Jews.

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## totach7

Black blood said:


>



I wonder why you chose the name black blood... you use Nazi
way of speaking and drawing .... nothing new 
poor man
blind... one side glasses .......





IDF ARMOR


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## DESERT FIGHTER

totach7 said:


> I wonder why you chose the name black blood... you use Nazi
> way of speaking and drawing .... nothing new
> poor man
> blind... one side glasses .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR



Its wierd u come on the forum.Tell insult us by (feel arab) act like a israendian....When somebody shows u the darn mirror.......u shy away call him a nazi or a anti semite...
I have a relative who was a major in SS and served during ww2 and he disagrees with the hallocaust.
What would u call me?

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## totach7

FreekiN said:


> Well, we wouldn't fight terror with terror, that's for sure. Unless we get some kind of mad dictator, but hopefully that won't happen ever again.
> 
> No offense man, I know your a good guy and all but it's just your government and it's actions we do not like.
> 
> Thanks.



No hard feeling but isn't it much easy to see everything from where you are living
ever been to Israel? or Pakistan ....... teror is ugly


----------



## Kompromat

if pope banedict can be a nazi then whats so wrong with me guys


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Black blood said:


> if pope banedict can be a nazi then whats so wrong with me guys



The black blooded anti semetic nazi.

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## mkiyani

First Pakistan, Then support any other country... None of Arab country is helping Pakistan when there was war between India and Pakistan and even now...we had to take loan from World Bank to save our economy and country... Are they giving us any support or cheap oil.. we have too many problem in Pakistan we should try fixing them first then start helping others and we should not make new problems by giving statement like hitting Israel and others... when the time comes we would deal with every enemy of Pakistan assertively. 
Never Underestimate Pakistan

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## SBD-3

Sex, Bribes, And On The Take
February 15, 2010: Fatah leaders are scrambling to cope with a former Fatah intelligence officials recent release of evidence of corruption. The most damaging item was a 2008 video of the Fatah chief of staff demanding sex from a woman seeking help from Fatah. Many Fatah officials are calling the video a fake created by Israel. The video first appeared on Israeli TV last week (it could never get on Palestinian TV, which is controlled by Fatah). But many more Palestinians know the vid is all too real. Lawyer Fahmi Shabaneh, who released the video, and promises much more, is being denounced by Fatah as an Israeli agent. Most Palestinians believe Shabaneh, and believe that this won't make any difference. Fatah is under a lot of pressure to resume peace negotiations with Israel and work out a unity deal with Hamas. The Fatah leadership isn't really interested. Fatah is receiving over $2 billion a year in aid, mostly from the West, and the Fatah leadership are getting rich, stealing as much as they can get away with. A peace deal would cause many of the aid donors to take their money elsewhere, to more urgent crises. Fatah has to keep the pot boiling, to keep the cash coming. 
Israel has decided not to deploy its new Iron Dome anti-rocket system to Gaza, but to keep it in reserve so that it can quickly (within a day), be deployed against Gaza or Lebanon. This upsets the people in southern Israel, but the government points out that only a few rockets are fired out of Gaza each week, and rarely do those hit anything. But if Hezbollah started another war, Iron Dome could save lives if it was deployed quickly enough. Hamas is less likely to launch a major rocket offensive (the Israelis watch Gaza more closely), but Iron Dome missile batteries and radars can be quickly moved south. Iron Dome can handle hundreds of incoming rockets an hour, because the radar system calculates where each rocket will land, and only launches a missile against rockets that are going to hit a residential area. Over 90 percent of rockets fired, in the north or south, hit open terrain.

February 14, 2010: Hamas arrested a British journalist in Gaza. During the last three years, Hamas has generally left journalists alone, since most are leftist and pro-Hamas and inclined to give the terrorist group favorable treatment. The current arrest is believed associated with a journalist who was not working on a pro-Hamas project. Some journalists are describing the arrest as a kidnapping, which was what often happened to journalists in Gaza before Hamas cracked down in 2007. 

In Lebanon, the government announced that its anti-aircraft guns opened fire on four Israeli aircraft making their daily reconnaissance flights over Lebanon. These guns usually do not open fire unless the Israeli aircraft are within range, which is rarely the case. It's unclear what this announcement is really about, but that's not unusual. The Lebanese government has been upset over rumors that Hezbollah has been ordered by Iran (which funds, and helped create Hezbollah) to increase attacks against Israel, or launch a major attack. This would hurt Lebanon, as Israel has warned that the Lebanese government, which has failed in its attempt to control Hezbollah, would suffer as well if Hezbollah attacked again. 

February 13, 2010: In the north, a feud between two Arab clans led to a large fight that sent a dozen people to the hospital. This use of clan organizations by Arabs is common throughout the region, even in Israel, where fair and impartial courts are available for settling these disputes.

February 12, 2010: The Egyptian Navy arrested four Palestinian fishermen, who had moved into Egyptian waters. The Egyptians are more concerned about smuggling, than losing some fish to boats based in Gaza. Meanwhile, another rocket was fired from Gaza into Israel, where it did no damage.

February 11, 2010: In Gaza, Israeli troops spotted several Palestinians preparing to fire rockets. The troops advanced 200 meters into Gaza and killed two of the Palestinians. Three civilians were wounded as well. 

February 8, 2010; A rocket was fired from Gaza into Israel, where it did no damage.

February 6, 2010: Hamas withdrew its earlier expression of regret over any Israeli civilian casualties its rocket attacks might have caused. Hamas made that comment under pressure from the UN. But rival Fatah immediately pounced, calling for Hamas to apologize for pro-Fatah civilians in Gaza that Hamas gunmen had injured in the last three years. Both Hamas and Fatah compete to outdo each other in their appeals for Palestinians to kill Israelis (including civilians). They keep most of this out of their English language propaganda, but the Arab language media is full of it, constantly.


----------



## Kompromat

jeypore said:


> Call me Stupid, that Israelies thinking about Pakistans destruction.



How they can even "DARE" to think about Destroying Pakistan.

They are feeding their proxies In Pakistan Through their Indian "Friends".

Tell them to wait and you have my promise we will triple the amount of BS and send it back.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> I wonder why you chose the name black blood



Personal Attacks are not allowed , if you continued BS'ing me personally then you are on your way to be banned.



> you use Nazi way of speaking and drawing



Come on Nazis were not all bad



> nothing new poor man



I am poor ??? hahhahahha An Israeli talking about poverty who themselves are 80% owned by David Rockefellers aint you?



> blind... one side glasses



"Andhay ko andheray main bohot door ki soojhi










> IDF ARMOR



MODS is it allowed to Publicize other forums ???


----------



## zraver

kidwaibhai said:


> Its not only an arab cause its also a muslim cause because of Masjid-e-alaqsa. That is why so many pakistanis react in such a way. Its a very emotional topic.



If its about Muslims, and the Ummah, why is Pakistan not involved in ending the genocide in the Sudan, why did it defend Assad of Syria and support the Taliban when they ruled Afghanistan? The single biggest killer of Muslims is fellow Muslims.

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## zraver

taimikhan said:


> Am not defending the arabs, I am countering your argument that US has stood by us, which it hasn't ever nor it will ever.



The US has given Pakistan billions in civil and military aid, and protected your country on the international stage. Our big mistake was in thinking the end of the Cold War meant peace. Thus we left the region. However Pakistan compounded the problem by pushing ahead with nuke tests despite the Pressler Amendments.


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## Canaan

totach7 said:


> I wonder what would be Pakistan reaction to Rocket attack against its towns
> by anyone or any country!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR




its towns?
you mean Sderot that was built on top of the ethnically cleansed village of Najd, or Ashkelon which lies instead of the ethnically cleansed city of Al Majdal Asqalan, or how about Be'er Sheva which is the ethnically cleansed city of Bi'r as-Sab`or Ashdod which is the ethnically cleansed city of Isdud etc. etc.
These rockets are fired on occupied Palestinian towns and cities. If you don't like it, Kiev, Warsaw, prague and other beautiful cities will accomodate you easily since your origin is there.

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## totach7

StealthQL-707PK said:


> A very simple example here in a free world : - A Typical Zionist propagandas and mischieves.



so low


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## Abu Zolfiqar

both countries are too far away from eachother to cause harm

as i said earlier, we should establish some contact with them. Of course, I don't think Pakistan would recognize israel until there is a just solution to the Palestine issue. With hawkish PM Netanyahu in power, i don't see it happening soon.

But in the meantime, we should deal with the israelis in a professional and calculated way. I gotta give it to them -- they work hard, they love their country, they respect eachother, and they are ultra nationalist and very united. This has helped them become technologically advanced --though obviously israel does rely on strong U.S. support. But so do other countries.

we need to get it through our heads --- not all jews are zionists. Same way not all Muslims are sectarian-minded extremist.


question to everyone:

should Jews have a homeland? Are we hypocrites if we deny them this right? It goes without saying that israel has used brutal tactics against people deemed threat to their 'existence.' In many case, they killed many civilians --such as what happened in Gaza and in much of Lebanon in 2006. But lets think right now, what are our interests? How do we balance our position on Falasteen with that of perhaps opening dialogue and some cooperation with people we have no personal beef with?

let's be rational....not emotional.

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## totach7

Canaan said:


> its towns?
> you mean Sderot that was built on top of the ethnically cleansed village of Najd, or Ashkelon which lies instead of the ethnically cleansed city of Al Majdal Asqalan, or how about Be'er Sheva which is the ethnically cleansed city of Bi'r as-Sab`or Ashdod which is the ethnically cleansed city of Isdud etc. etc.
> These rockets are fired on occupied Palestinian towns and cities. If you don't like it, Kiev, Warsaw, prague and other beautiful cities will accomodate you easily since your origin is there.



same old propaganda ....... bla bla bla

the Palestinans rejected 1947 U.N offer for 2 states 
they are cowards terorists using only force even between 
their own people
ask any Israeli arab citizen if he want to live in the palestinian state
there not even one why????????

I live in Haifa which is mixed town some of my best friends are arab
Muslims and Christians all of them want to stay Israeli citizen
all of them think that Yassser Araffat was a gay... stole
billion of dollars from his people and never wanted peace with Israel
He was dreaming like most members here to be on the road to Jerusalem with force and push all the Jews to the sea

but again as I said here before Israel is the homeland for all Jews
it will always be and is here forever
got that?

We want peace and respect 
Inshalla it will come



IDF ARMOR


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## Abu Zolfiqar

totach, i agree....the problem is the settlements building. They are stirring up more resentment. 

What steps do you think will/can be taken to ensure peace? Let's resist the temptation --- leave Jerusalem out of this discussion.

What steps should be taken for 2-state solution.....Camp David was a good deal in my opinion, but let bygons be bygons


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## TaimiKhan

zraver said:


> The US has given Pakistan billions in civil and military aid, and protected your country on the international stage. Our big mistake was in thinking the end of the Cold War meant peace. Thus we left the region. However Pakistan compounded the problem by pushing ahead with nuke tests despite the Pressler Amendments.



So why did we got sanctioned after 65 war and continued for many years, where was US in 71. Why did they leave Afghanistan & Pakistan alone after Soviets left and slapped us with sanctions right within a year of defeating the soviets, that is how you repay us ?? 

Decade plus sanctions and it gets lifted only, when US again needs us in Afghanistan. 

Strange thing is you guys used the atomic bomb on Japan, defending it by saying to reduce further US casualties, it was done, and when our arch enemy detonated atomic bombs in 74 and yet again in 98 and dismembered us in 71, it becomes a problem after we detonate an atomic bomb to defend our sovereignty. That's pathetic. 

Mistake is done once, not multiple times. In 65 it was done, in 71 it was done, in 88-89 it was done and i assure you and bet, it will be done again the moment *IF* US forces leave this region, mark my words, we will get slapped with yet another round of sanctions. 

Nuke tests & program is & was our right, especially with a neighbor like India on our side, waiting to destroy us. If you guys can keep it and expand it with the pretext of a threat from Soviets, so could and can we, with such an arch enemy in sights. 

History is very clear, US was never our friend, is not our friend and will never be. 

And as for Billions spent, much more then those Billions has been lost by us due to this War of Terror alone. The 71 saga separate to that, and the multiple time sanctions beside.

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## totach7

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> totach, i agree....the problem is the settlements building. They are stirring up more resentment.
> 
> What steps do you think will/can be taken to ensure peace? Let's resist the temptation --- leave Jerusalem out of this discussion.
> 
> What steps should be taken for 2-state solution.....Camp David was a good deal in my opinion, but let bygons be bygons




Israel must give enough land to the Palestinians take apart
some settelments . ensure strong economy to the newly born Palestine
Palestine must accept Israel as a the Jewish state stop teror!!!

We hope there will not be a civil war between the Hammas and the Fattach 
When hate will replaced by peace we can make good team with
the Palestinans 

(ever asked yourself why most Arab nations don't lie Palestinans? because they are clever!!!!)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no, the Arabs are just dis-united and lack leaders with any vision.

Nothing new with that.

I think israel needs to accept HAMAS as the elected leaders of Gaza Strip. It was, after all, israeli which helped foster creation of HAMAS to counter the PLO.

both sides must stop attacks....Rocket attacks to israel should end, so should the israeli attacks and air-space violations on Palestine end as well.


of course, what i say has little meaning or bearing.....alas.

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## totach7

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no, the Arabs are just dis-united and lack leaders with any vision.
> 
> Nothing new with that.
> 
> I think israel needs to accept HAMAS as the elected leaders of Gaza Strip. It was, after all, israeli which helped foster creation of HAMAS to counter the PLO.
> 
> both sides must stop attacks....Rocket attacks to israel should end, so should the israeli attacks and air-space violations on Palestine end as well.
> 
> 
> 
> More than one million Jewish refugees were forced to flee Arab countries
> 
> Israel expected to raise compensation issue for Jewish refugees in upcoming negotiations with Palestinians
> 
> One of the thorniest issues in the upcoming Israeli-Palestinian negotiations will be the refugee question, on both sides. Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas and other Palestinian officials claim the 'right of return' for the Palestinian refugees and their descendants who fled Palestine after the neighboring Arab states declared war on Israel in 1948. However, it appears that a similar number of Jewish refugees also fled from Arab countries, this after the Arab-League drafted a law that in effect confiscated their property and considered them to be 'members of the Jewish minority state of Palestine'.


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## pak-yes

Well Well Well what do we have here.Peace.

Well there will be Peace when Palestinians are only to be found in Museums or History Books.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

not sure bout Arabs, but I heard Iranian were taking in a lot of Jews who were facing persecution

(during and post holocaust)


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## zraver

taimikhan said:


> So why did we got sanctioned after 65 war and continued for many years,



The US sanctioned both countries. We had provided you with all sorts of arms that you then used to invade India with (Operation Gibraltar). Leaving aside the issue of whether or not Kashmir is or is not rightfully part of India or Pakistan your country started military operations against a neighbor.




> where was US in 71.



What exactly was the US supposed to do in the 2 weeks the war lasted when the Pakistani army collapsed? And why would we intervene on Pakistan's side when it was conducting a genocide?



> Why did they leave Afghanistan & Pakistan alone after Soviets left



Huge mistake on our part



> and slapped us with sanctions right within a year of defeating the soviets, that is how you repay us ??
> 
> Decade plus sanctions and it gets lifted only, when US again needs us in Afghanistan.



Your country knew the Pressler amendment existed and chose to chest thump with India anyway. You didn't have to pop nukes, you knew you had them, your country only did it to chest thump.



> Strange thing is you guys used the atomic bomb on Japan, defending it by saying to reduce further US casualties, it was done,



The bombings of Japan saved millions of lives on both sides.




> and when our arch enemy detonated atomic bombs in 74 and yet again in 98 and dismembered us in 71, it becomes a problem after we detonate an atomic bomb to defend our sovereignty. That's pathetic.



It was not defending your sovereignty, it was going tit for tat in a chest thumping display with India. BTW, in 1971 Pakistan dismembered itself.



> Mistake is done once, not multiple times. In 65 it was done, in 71 it was done, in 88-89 it was done



own your country's role in those events.




> and i assure you and bet, it will be done again the moment *IF* US forces leave this region, mark my words, we will get slapped with yet another round of sanctions.



Depends on how you behave. Paksitan is a client state of either the US or China take your pick. 



> Nuke tests & program is & was our right,



Not according to the international community. Even though you did not sign the NPT the US was bound by it.




> especially with a neighbor like India on our side, waiting to destroy us.



If India wanted to destroy Pakistan, it would be destroyed.All the Indian navy has to do is sit off the coast and Pakistan starves.




> If you guys can keep it and expand it with the pretext of a threat from Soviets, so could and can we, with such an arch enemy in sights.



The Soviets were bent on global domination. India jsut wants to be left alone. 



> History is very clear, US was never our friend, is not our friend and will never be.



We you see everyone as an enemy, everyone is an enemy.



> And as for Billions spent, much more then those Billions has been lost by us due to this War of Terror alone. The 71 saga separate to that, and the multiple time sanctions beside.



Uh-huh, and much of that loss is self inflicted.

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## Desert Fox

zraver said:


> The bombings of Japan saved millions of lives on both sides.



lol, WHAT????????????

lol, what a silly excuse?

Thousand of Japanese people lost their lives and you say this BOMB (a weapon of mass DESTRUCTION) saved lives?
Do you know that millions of Japanese infants were born deformed because of the radiation from those nukes? Do you know that even today, many residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have symptoms of Cancer?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

you've got to bloody be shitting me...

i hope you had whisky when you said it, and you weren't sober.

how many innocent people were killed in Nagasaki and Hiroshima? 




i would also ask you to learn about the conflicts before passing judgements. As for Pressler Amendment, yes Pakistan knew what was at stake.

So did the USA, when she showered Pakistan with support for the mujahideen. 

Why was israel never hit by such sanctions. We at least made it clear we had nukes. Everybody knows that israel has the bombs, but they dont deny or confirm it.



I like America. But American foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired; you people really have a lot to learn. 

In the end, sanctions and arms embargo on Pakistan were blessing in disguise --even though Pakistan did not see an era of substantial economic growth or debt servicing







p.s. salute to Mr. Charlie Wilson, who passed away a few days back

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## Kompromat

zraver said:


> The US sanctioned both countries. We had provided you with all sorts of arms that you then used to invade India with (Operation Gibraltar). Leaving aside the issue of whether or not Kashmir is or is not rightfully part of India or Pakistan your country started military operations against a neighbor.



Who started the war in 65 once again ??






> What exactly was the US supposed to do in the 2 weeks the war lasted when the Pakistani army collapsed? And why would we intervene on *Pakistan's side when it was conducting a genocide*?



And where are all of those dead bodies ?? Now there is an independent govt in BD why they are not Conducting an investigation that they can get Pakistan on nail tips ?

I guess you are a regular listener to BBC world service !



> Huge mistake on our part







> Your country knew the Pressler amendment existed and chose to chest thump with India anyway. You didn't have to pop nukes, you knew you had them, your country only did it to chest thump.



We had to show that we have "Balls" simple is that !



> The bombings of Japan saved millions of lives on both sides.



How can you be so sure & on a cost of hundred and thousands of lives and where still people are suffering ?




> It was not defending your sovereignty, it was going tit for tat in a chest thumping display with India. BTW, in 1971 Pakistan dismembered itself.



We do not expect any help from US & if our leadership did expected at that time then they were a bunch of Idiots because US will not help us but our enemies .




> Depends on how you behave. Paksitan is a client state of either the US or China take your pick.



On military hardware maybe we have already made a choice if you can see it or not
Our eyes are open now and i guess we also can convince Arabs to think "Different"




> If India wanted to destroy Pakistan, it would be destroyed.



They do not have balls to do that.



> All the Indian navy has to do is sit off the coast and Pakistan starves.



They will come on our coast and before we starve we will send them a gift of 100+ Thermonuclear bombs in a preemptive Missile Strike. 




> The Soviets were bent on global domination. India jsut wants to be left alone.



India just wants to be a smart a$$ which it wont be.





> We you see everyone as an enemy, everyone is an enemy.



Just India is our enemy .

Regards:

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## zraver

SilentNinja said:


> lol, WHAT????????????
> 
> lol, what a silly excuse?
> 
> Thousand of Japanese people lost their lives and you say this BOMB (a weapon of mass DESTRUCTION) saved lives?



The US had three options for ending the war.

1. Don't invade and rely on the submarine blockade. The result is mass famine on the Japanese home islands as Japan cannot grow enough food to feed itself. Millions die like in Ethiopia or the Sudan. Of those who survive you get a generation stunted like North Korea and tales of cannibalism. By 1945 japan was out of fuel, had no merchant marine left and the USN was sailing off the coast firing at will. Its people were starving and only weeks from disaster. Never before has a population that large been that close to mass starvation.

2. Invade, based on what Japanese nationals did on Okinawa and Saipan you'd see parents killing their children. Half the Japanese civilian population there died by their own hands. Of those who did not suicide, many would have died caught between the opposing armies or under the rain of bombs and shells. Tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands more would have died in firebombings of Japan's remaining cities as America tried to break the Japanese will.

3. Drop the atomic bombs, it would kill hundreds of thousands but spare millions more outside the city their fate.






BTW, who really cares about Japanese Civilians, Japan murdered somewhere between 30,000,000 and 100,000,000 civilians in its war of aggression. Japan created deliberate famines in Malaysia, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, Singapore....

They experimented on civilians, released plague into China on purpose...

Not to mention the theft and rape. Ask your friends the Chinese what the Japanese are like.









> Do you know that millions of Japanese infants were born deformed because of the radiation from those nukes?



Got any proof?



> Do you know that even today, many residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have symptoms of Cancer?



people in every modern city have cancer.

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki tumour registries, which have been in operation since 1958, are among the few population-based cancer registries in Japan. This analysis evaluated cancer incidence in Hiroshima and Nagasaki between 1958 and 1987. The overall age-adjusted (World Population Standard) cancer incidence has increased from 217 to 301 per 100,000 among males, and from 176 to 197 per 100,000 among females during the first 30 years of cancer registration. *The most recent rates are intermediate to rates in other countries.* Despite a gradual decrease, gastric cancer remained the most common malignancy among males and females throughout the surveillance period, accounting for 24% of all cancers by the late 1980s. The rate of liver cancer has increased dramatically among males during the past 20 years, with a 2-fold increase in incidence in the past 10 years alone. The populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki now have among the highest rates of liver cancer in the world.* Breast cancer incidence in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in contrast, is among the lowest in the world*, although incidence rates have doubled since the 1960s. Other common malignancies include cancers of the lung, colon and rectum among males and cancers of the colon, cervix and lung among females.

Cancer incidence in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan,... [Eur J Cancer. 1994] - PubMed result


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Regarding the 71 war---the U S realized that it was an issue with two brothers who wanted to go their own ways---the U S then decided accordingly to the situation---.

If pak army had made a full scale attack from its western border against the indian forces---an all out no hold barred kind of attack---the U S might have looked at things differently.

Bottomline is that our actions determine how our allies would act in a given situation. We failed ourselves in 71---no reason to blame anyone else---this debacle was of our own making.

The U S just wanted to see some light---there was no initiative on our part. Our general staff acted like chicken---Indira gandhi tore them up piece by a piece.

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## zraver

Black blood said:


> Who started the war in 65 once again ??



Pakistan via Operation Gibraltar



> And where are all of those dead bodies ?? Now there is an independent govt in BD why they are not Conducting an investigation that they can get Pakistan on nail tips ?



DAWN.COM | World | Bangladesh urges Pakistan apology for 1971 ?crimes?

I guess you are a regular listener to BBC world service !



> We had to show that we have "Balls" simple is that !



But you didn't have a right to our aid if you violated our laws. You chose balls, how did that work out for you, your nukes fizzeled.



> How can you be so sure & on a cost of hundred and thousands of lives and where still people are suffering ?



see my earlier post



> We do not expect any help from US & if our leadership did expected at that time then they were a bunch of Idiots because US will not help us but our enemies .



when you see everyone as an enemy, then everyone is an enemy.



> On military hardware maybe we have already made a choice if you can see it or not
> Our eyes are open now and i guess we also can convince Arabs to think "Different"



Pakistani might as well be an Arab word for slave.



> They do not have balls to do that.



Coming from someone whose country prefers terror attacks on civilians....



> They will come on our coast and before we starve we will send them a gift of 100+ Thermonuclear bombs in a preemptive Missile Strike.



And get nuked in turn and then the whole argument is pointless.



> India just wants to be a smart a$$ which it wont be.



leave them alone, stop the terror attacks and watch peace break out.



> Just India is our enemy .
> 
> Regards:



Pakistan is Pakistan's own worst enemy.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The atrocities committed by the japanese during the second world war were at the same level as committed by the germans---the slaughter of civilian population, the slaughter of soldiers who laid down their arms---the torture of the prisoners of wars---none of these were the redeeming characters of the japanese.

It was totally sickening to read about the execution of soldiers who laid down their weapons by the japanese---who would not imagine of laying down their arms under any condition.

The japanese laid down and wrote the laws for combat---last man to the last bullet and the death by suicide bomb---the japanese pride in not laying down their arms and not believing in surrender became their ultimate nightmare.

Why did the japanese had to execute in millions the chinese civilian populations or the philipinos or those in singapore and other places they conquered en masse---why did they have to kill anyone or anyone who looked non japanese---war crimes didnot mean anything to the japs---killing of the unarmed soldiers was fun and games---a satisfaction of japanese pride and self serving ego.

A people who didnot believe that a soldier who laid down his arms has any right to live---how many thousands of soldiers were killed by the japs---just because they laid down their arms---how many thousands died in prison camps like changi---thousands and thousands---from malnutrition and executions---malnutrition because the japs didnot want to give food to those soldiers who had laid down their weapons---.

And why are we paks badering the americans over here---ain't we been threatenibg to use the same device to satisfy our means as well---regardless what the circumstances are.

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## kidwaibhai

hey totach just wanted to know what do think of your foreign minister. have to admit that dude is some kinda a crazy


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## jeypore

Black blood said:


> *How they can even "DARE" to think about Destroying Pakistan.*
> They are feeding their proxies In Pakistan Through their Indian "Friends".
> 
> Tell them to wait and you have my promise we will triple the amount of BS and send it back.



It is funny the thread is about Pakistan and Israel, yet input into the thread relates to destruction of Pakistan, or shall I say Israel intention of distruction of Pakistan. 

The word Proxy is thrown around so easly in this forum, where it does not matter no more. In order for any country to create such "Proxy", it requires time and dedication, but here India buy's one missile technology from Israelies, it becomes a "Proxy." 

Well let me tell you a true form of Proxy--------Afgan Taliban!!!!! Need I say more...

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## totach7

kidwaibhai said:


> hey totach just wanted to know what do think of your foreign minister. have to admit that dude is some kinda a crazy



He is! I wish him to shut up and go home

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## Kompromat

jeypore said:


> It is funny



Its not funny !


> the thread is about Pakistan and Israel, yet input into the thread relates to destruction of Pakistan, or shall I say Israel intention of distruction of Pakistan.



It was you who started it , Well Israel has Tried to Attack us for a couple of times with their Indian friends but they did not had any "Balls" so stop spreading your BS all over the place.



> The word Proxy is thrown around so easly in this forum, where it does not matter no more.



And why it does not matter? / to you or to us.



> In order for any country to create such "Proxy", it requires time and dedication, but here India buy's one missile technology from Israelies, it becomes a "Proxy."



Who is Spending 100 Billion Dollars on weapons ?



> Well let me tell you a true form of Proxy--------Afgan Taliban!!!!! Need I say more...


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## Dead Man

The sense of insecurity among the people of Pakistan has become so high that they have started sensing proxies and a plan to dismantle pakistan in each and everything


they had nothing to do with Israel and they made a enemy out of them. Americans they are the enemy. Ever Arabs are enimies because they are useless spines. 

Apart from china which just provides with the supplies i have started feeling that the whole world is enemy of china though china is making the economy of pakistan dependent on him and the local industries are crumbling because of that

Israel on the other hand if was just cup of tea then it would have been destroyed by now. it existed even with the presence of nuclear power pakistan and so it is going to exist. so it would be better to have good relations when you know that you cannot remove an entity from existance so there is no use in living in hatred for that entity


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## Canaan

totach7 said:


> same old propaganda ....... bla bla bla
> 
> the Palestinans rejected 1947 U.N offer for 2 states
> they are cowards terorists using only force even between
> their own people
> ask any Israeli arab citizen if he want to live in the palestinian state
> there not even one why????????
> 
> I live in Haifa which is mixed town some of my best friends are arab
> Muslims and Christians all of them want to stay Israeli citizen
> all of them think that Yassser Araffat was a gay... stole
> billion of dollars from his people and never wanted peace with Israel
> He was dreaming like most members here to be on the road to Jerusalem with force and push all the Jews to the sea
> 
> but again as I said here before Israel is the homeland for all Jews
> it will always be and is here forever
> got that?
> 
> We want peace and respect
> Inshalla it will come
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR



Propaganda? how is it propaganda when it is a historical fact?
you just have to open a history book to confirm what I am saying. Of course the Palestinians rejected the 1947 partition plan because it was unfair. First of all who is Britain to give away land that is occupied already, second of all the partition plan and the way it was created was absolutely fraudulent. Before the two major migrations of jews into palestine, jews were less than 6% of the total population, how the heck did European jews end up with 56% of the most fertile land in the 1947 plan? Notice I said EUROPEAN jews who I believe have nothing to do in the Middle East.
I'm sorry, lets go back a bit. Palestinians from all over the world, conspirated with the world's leading powers and created a false claim based on a constructed misconception of a right to some land, they or their grandfathers have never seen, infiltrated into a land claiming it was empty and its people doesn't exist, then had the UN under pressure from the same leading powers carve up the land with the foreign people getting the advantage, and then attack into the malicious people's areas claiming selfdefence. Annexing the land, deporting the people under terror and initiate various ethnic cleansing projects.
Does that sound familiar to you?
Tell me are you a member of the Hasbara network?
Yes Arafat was a corrupt moron, what's your point?
And the only reason why Palestinians in the 48 doesn't want to move to the occupied palestinian areas is because of its poor state as a result of occupation, believe me it's not out of love to you. We all know how you treat them.
How is "Israel" a homeland for all jews? that's pure racism.
How is a jew let's say who was born in Alaska have more of a right to live in Palestine than a Palestinian?
You see, there will never be peace with you as long as you have this supremist and racist thinking.
I am afraid you will inflict a second holocaust on yourself. What a tragedy that would be.

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## Kompromat

Israel & Pakistan 



*David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister had something real interesting to say about us:

&#8220;The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. &#8220;This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. &#8220;Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. &#8220;It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.&#8221;

- David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister. His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967.*

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## Dead Man

@black blood


so based on a statement which was given 40 years back you are not recognizing a country and trying to make a enemy out of it....


what can israel do then to support india when you guys everyday make plans for annihilation of israel. do you expect it to sit quitely and watch itself getting destroyed....


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## doberman

now this is really a joke,indians lack ball,israel lack balls,hey we r talking abt pakistan not usa,even afgan can thrash u

and why r u pakistanis making fool of urself,u dont stand a chance against israel and india,we have beaten u 4 times

now u want to mess with israel,they can tore ur nation with a fraction of 
seconds

u r creating all possible alliances against india,but when we r doing the same,u feel insecure,u fear as

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## Kompromat

doberman said:


> now this is really a joke,indians lack ball,israel lack balls,hey we r talking abt pakistan not usa,even afgan can thrash u
> 
> and why r u pakistanis making fool of urself,u dont stand a chance against israel and india,we have beaten u 4 times
> 
> now u want to mess with israel,they can tore ur nation with a fraction of
> seconds
> 
> u r creating all possible alliances against india,but when we r doing the same,*u feel insecure,u fear as*




*We are scared of you ????????*

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## Canaan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> totach, i agree....the problem is the settlements building. They are stirring up more resentment.
> 
> What steps do you think will/can be taken to ensure peace? Let's resist the temptation --- leave Jerusalem out of this discussion.
> 
> What steps should be taken for 2-state solution.....Camp David was a good deal in my opinion, but let bygons be bygons



The settlement building is an ethnic cleansing project. I have a friend who monitors settlement activity just returned after a 6 month stay in Jerusalem. It doesn't look good from what I heard.
It's a long discussion of how they try to Judaise Jerusalem, but I can assure you they are trying hard. Just look at the demographic development in the area, and the amount of land confiscation and house demolitions. You can't leave Jerusalem out of the discussion.

Tell me how was Camp David a good deal?
If this is it I really want you to explain how this is a good deal for the Palestinians


Let me just put this into perspective.







read this link
Why did Arafat reject Barak's 'generous' offer at Camp David?

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## Kompromat

Dead Man said:


> @black blood
> 
> 
> so based on a statement which was given 40 years back you are not recognizing a country and trying to make a enemy out of it....



So is it your problem ?




> what can israel do then to support india when you guys everyday make plans for annihilation of israel.



 And when we did that ???


> do you expect it to sit quitely and watch itself getting destroyed....




Who is getting destroyed ? Israel  Pakistanophobia


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## Canaan

totach7 said:


> Abu Zolfiqar said:
> 
> 
> 
> no, the Arabs are just dis-united and lack leaders with any vision.
> 
> Nothing new with that.
> 
> I think israel needs to accept HAMAS as the elected leaders of Gaza Strip. It was, after all, israeli which helped foster creation of HAMAS to counter the PLO.
> 
> both sides must stop attacks....Rocket attacks to israel should end, so should the israeli attacks and air-space violations on Palestine end as well.
> 
> 
> More than one million Jewish refugees were forced to flee Arab countries
> 
> Israel expected to raise compensation issue for Jewish refugees in upcoming negotiations with Palestinians
> 
> One of the thorniest issues in the upcoming Israeli-Palestinian negotiations will be the refugee question, on both sides. Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas and other Palestinian officials claim the 'right of return' for the Palestinian refugees and their descendants who fled Palestine after the neighboring Arab states declared war on Israel in 1948. However, it appears that a similar number of Jewish refugees also fled from Arab countries, this after the Arab-League drafted a law that in effect confiscated their property and considered them to be 'members of the Jewish minority state of Palestine'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take up the issue with the arab states, Palestinians cannot be held responsible for any Libyan, Moroccan, Iraqi etc jews. Palestinians will allow Palestinian jews to return if they like to.
> 
> As for the Jews who left, the majority left voluntarily to Israel. Again documented in history books.
Click to expand...


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## Kompromat

Dead Man said:


> yes it is cause Israel is our friend.... do you have problem with that... or may be jealousy...



We are jealous of Indians & Israelis .






> do you need links....



Yes !!




> well at least your plans are like that when you keep on boasting on missiles which can reach tel aviv and haifa....



What about Agni V?


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## Kompromat




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## doberman

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I already have her husband.
> Dont u have a wife?
> I thought dobermans are bought in pairs?
> And watch ur mouth doberman this is not a indian p..n site.



hmmmm she got a husband
then do 1 thing bring ur pussy here(i dont mean ur cat)
i think u know what i am saying
i will **** that

u dont like my mouth
i dont care much
it was u who started it


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## totach7

Lets cool down

A nice Israel landscape pic 
no politics

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## Abu Zolfiqar

u can post israeli girls pictures =D

they do look fine in uniform i must say....setting politics aside, you got some lovely women over there.

nice, tan and mediterranean

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## Hyde

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> u can post israeli girls pictures =D
> 
> they do look fine in uniform i must say....setting politics aside, you got some lovely women over there.
> 
> nice, tan and mediterranean



  

well said sir and indeed they are very pretty


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

totach7 said:


> Lets cool down
> 
> A nice Israel landscape pic
> no politics
> YouTube - Israel Landscapes to Miaamakim song by Idan Raichel Project



Nice post - would be interesting to visit , hopefully the palestinian/israel seperate state issue can be resolved peacefully 

Other then that israel is just like kuwait ..


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## totach7

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Nice post - would be interesting to visit , hopefully the palestinian/israel seperate state issue can be resolved peacefully
> 
> Other then that israel is just like kuwait ..



With God help peace will come Insahalla !!!!
So we will see all of you in JERUSALEM EL KUDS
visiting EL AQSSA and all the other places.....

I don't know if someone here been into battle ..... it is easy to wage war here with wards it is hard to see it in your eyes 
so stop talk here about crazy ideas like "Israel want to attack Pakistan"
we don't think that way I am 52 years old with
some security background and can tell you that
Israel would be glad to have peace with great nation like Pakistan!!!

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## totach7

enjoy

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## Hyde

totach7 said:


> With God help peace will come Insahalla !!!!
> So we will see all of you in JERUSALEM EL KUDS
> visiting EL AQSSA and all the other places.....
> 
> I don't know if someone here been into battle ..... it is easy to wage war here with wards it is hard to see it in your eyes
> so stop talk here about crazy ideas like "Israel want to attack Pakistan"
> we don't think that way I am 52 years old with
> some security background and can tell you that
> Israel would be glad to have peace with great nation like Pakistan!!!


yes after looking at IDF Girls video posted by you....... i am also changing my mind..... yes we should all have peace.... war is not solution to anything

Any chance i can join IDF??? i would like spread peace and love in IDF for a couple of months 

allow me Sir...... my pleasure

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## FreekiN

Ayesha Gilani, "My FAVE picture from Miss Earth 2009 held in the Philippines, although it's just a silly joke with a deeper message.
They said, "Miss Pakistan, Miss Israel, please come pose for a picture."
We exchanged glances, smirked, and said, "Ok."

Before leaving the Philippines, Miss Israel said to me, *"You are my first Muslim friend... You have done a great service to your country*." _It brought tears to my eyes, and although I have great memories from all my international trips, this is my fondest and dearest._

This photo symbolizes my favorite part about international pageants, and about being Miss Pakistan World 2009: Friendship has no language, religion, or color. We all believe in the same core principles: LOVE and PEACE.

P.S. I love you, Noy. Kisses from Pakistan to Israel. ;o"

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## Abu Zolfiqar

totach7 said:


> With God help peace will come Insahalla !!!!
> So we will see all of you in JERUSALEM EL KUDS
> visiting EL AQSSA and all the other places.....
> 
> I don't know if someone here been into battle ..... it is easy to wage war here with wards it is hard to see it in your eyes
> so stop talk here about crazy ideas like "Israel want to attack Pakistan"
> we don't think that way I am 52 years old with
> some security background and can tell you that
> Israel would be glad to have peace with great nation like Pakistan!!!



Thanks for the kind words.

Hopefully in our lifetime. It is definately in both our interests to make friends, not enemies

--as demanded by our religious faiths


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Freekin --- that is a freackin good post 

thanks for sharing bro. 

Models from both countries holding hands is a nice start. Maybe Pakistan can help israel set up a national cricket team 

in exchange, they can please hand over some Elta/Phased Array radars......israelis are good at gadgets. Gadgets make us smile.

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## linkwheel

bar refaeli is mine so back off


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## pak-yes

Shame on everyone who has forgotten the bloody pictures few Pages back.

And to all Pakistanis.

You all hate Taliban because they bomb Pakistan and kill mercilessly our Children.
But you forget Palestinians who are treated the same way.

And Peace don't forget this same Israel spared no chance to harm Pakistan and is still doing so.

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## Hyde

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Freekin --- that is a freackin good post
> 
> thanks for sharing bro.
> 
> Models from both countries holding hands is a nice start. Maybe Pakistan can help israel set up a national cricket team
> 
> in exchange, they can please hand over some Elta/Phased Array radars......israelis are good at gadgets. Gadgets make us smile.


i think better way to spead more peace is by recruting me in IDF  i will make sure all Israel remembers me even after my death and my childrens are spread in every single corner of Israel bringing peace and stability in that region


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## Hyde

pak-yes said:


> Shame on everyone who has forgotten the bloody pictures few Pages back.
> 
> And to all Pakistanis.
> 
> You all hate Taliban because they bomb Pakistan and kill mercilessly our Children.
> But you forget Palestinians who are treated the same way.
> 
> And Peace don't forget this same Israel spared no chance to harm Pakistan and is still doing so.



watch youtube video from last page....... u might want to change your mind :devil


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pak-yes said:


> Shame on everyone who has forgotten the bloody pictures few Pages back.
> 
> And to all Pakistanis.
> 
> You all hate Taliban because they bomb Pakistan and kill mercilessly our Children.
> But you forget Palestinians who are treated the same way.
> 
> And Peace don't forget this same Israel spared no chance to harm Pakistan and is still doing so.



what do you propose?

yes, israel planned to attack Kahuta Labs.....but it never happened, because intelligence agencies got intel about it, notified Air Force and took other measures. Job well done, but now past is past. 

what do we get for hating a country and people that pose zero threat to us? Seems that rest of the world has recognized Israel except us. And dont get me wrong, israel has done many bad things to Palestinian civilians. But even Israeli civilians have been killed for no reason at all, so that isn't right either. 

As non-Arabs, we should be helping to bring about solution. Not compound the problems and make things complicated. Showing solidarity to Falasteen is one thing; but being intolerant towards peace and just solution is bad I think.

Palestinians themselves are dis-united and factionalized now. Israelis have a hawkish jingoistic Prime Minister. Outlook doesnt look too good, but we shouldnt lose hope.

It seems that we should recognize Israel. It isnt going to go anywhere. The people wont just magically disappear. You cant just go around killing people. So what should we do with this ideological state, which got its independence around the same time that we did

what you propose


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## linkwheel

Before You Boycott Israel






and i have said this before and i am saying this once again i am doing JV with JOSEPH and he is from israel and if he doesn't pay me then

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## pak-yes

> what do you propose?




I propose nothing but the kind of sweat talk that people were having like one's old friend is unacceptable behavior from a Pakistani.

Not Only for what they have done to Palestine but also leaving no chance to harm Pakistan there latest acts include using Proxies against Pakistan with the help of India and supplying all types of deadly weapons to India.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

there comes a point in time when you realize that having good relations with people is better than being intolerant and hateful.

we should condemn ALL violence, wherever it happens. It doesnt just happen in Falasteen, it happens in our own cities --including my city Peshawar. We shouldnt be selective about things.

What's happening in Somalia, in Yemen, in Sudan; Iraq. 


for now, lets focus on ourselves....and only ourselves. Lets become stronger economically, and promote partnerships that benefit us. 

the Turks did it....so did the Malaysians. Look at them now.

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## pak-yes

> there comes a point in time when you realize that having good relations with people is better than being intolerant and hateful.
> 
> we should condemn ALL violence, wherever it happens. It doesnt just happen in Falasteen, it happens in our own cities --including my city Peshawar. We shouldnt be selective about things.
> 
> What's happening in Somalia, in Yemen, in Sudan; Iraq.
> 
> 
> for now, lets focus on ourselves....and only ourselves. Lets become stronger economically, and promote partnerships that benefit us.
> 
> the Turks did it....so did the Malaysians. Look at them now.



In other words turn a blind eye.And even if we did those Israeli's won't let us live in Peace.


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## FreekiN

I have a friend who is Israeli. We play soccer together occasionally. Also have an israeli substitute teacher in my High school who is really nice. 

I wonder why they are letting me live in peace?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

they have their own security concerns in their own neighbourhood........why would they waste their time on us? Same way, we have enough security concerns in our own neighbourhood, why should we bother with them?

i wont be naiive about things...i'm sure there are people in Mossad who are wary about the strength of Pakistan Armed Forces, the defence industry, and our nuclear status. I'm sure there does exist paranoia between the intelligence agencies of both countries...its understandable

but really, in the end --- NO we should not turn a blind eye. Lets get our priorities straight and worry about ourselves and our own economic, social and geo-strategic interests first before we worry about other things.

no, we shouldnt turn a blind eye.....we should help come up with solutions to problems. Not add to them and make more headache and tensions for ourselves needlessly

we have enough as it is!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

FreekiN said:


> I have a friend who is Israeli. We play soccer together occasionally. Also have an israeli substitute teacher in my High school who is really nice.
> 
> I wonder why they are letting me live in peace?



because people in the world who are rational look beyond politics and race when judging and interacting with others

its called judging people based on merit, character, hard-work, and humanity.......people who pose no threat to you.

Call it being mature and professional? Call it human?




p.s. I will openly admit that I am sometimes hypocritical on what I have said....but I am far from perfect.


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## pak-yes

> I have a friend who is Israeli. We play soccer together occasionally. Also have an israeli substitute teacher in my High school who is really nice.
> 
> I wonder why they are letting me live in peace?



You have an Israeli friend.No wonder you have ideals such as Miss Pakistan.But listen 99.99&#37; Pakistanis don't like Israel.Just tell any Political Party to even suggest recognizing Israel and i guarantee you that Party will never again come to power.



> they have their own security concerns in their own neighbourhood........why would they waste their time on us? Same way, we have enough security concerns in our own neighbourhood, why should we bother with them?
> 
> i wont be naiive about things...i'm sure there are people in Mossad who are wary about the strength of Pakistan Armed Forces, the defence industry, and our nuclear status. I'm sure there does exist paranoia between the intelligence agencies of both countries...its understandable
> 
> but really, in the end --- NO we should not turn a blind eye. Lets get our priorities straight and worry about ourselves and our own economic, social and geo-strategic interests first before we worry about other things.
> 
> no, we shouldnt turn a blind eye.....we should help come up with solutions to problems. Not add to them and make more headache and tensions for ourselves needlessly
> 
> we have enough as it is!



Sir then you mean that attacks on our nuclear Installations were just a joke and all these terrorists activities supported by Israel and India in Pakistan are also a joke.

And Lastly it was Israel who started the war and no matter how hard we try they will never let us live in Peace.And also one cannot just turn a blind eye to Palestine.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i dont see how him having israeli friend reflects anything bad on his character? We dont know who this israeli is. So who are we. Humei kya?

actually israelis didnt start the wars in Lebanon or Gaza. The problem with israel was their disproportionate response, and the methods they used to "defend" themselves in largely populated civilian areas


attacks on our nuclear facilities was definately no joke at the time, i can guarantee you that....now, I can laugh on it because it never happened. I can salute the men and women in uniform who protected/protect/always will protect our country and serve it. 

Until and unless IAF (israel air force) sends aircrafts and stations them in india -- I am not at all worried about them. Our problems are closer to home, on eastern and northern border.


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## Desert Fox

FreekiN said:


> I have a friend who is Israeli. We play soccer together occasionally. Also have an israeli substitute teacher in my High school who is really nice.
> 
> I wonder why they are letting me live in peace?



Good point, not everyone is a enemy as some people suggest! 

Jews aren't all bad! I knew a lot of good Jews back in America, i respected them and they respected me, nothing about religion came in between us!

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## Hyde

pak-yes said:


> You have an Israeli friend.No wonder you have ideals such as Miss Pakistan.But listen 99.99% Pakistanis don't like Israel.Just tell any Political Party to even suggest recognizing Israel and i guarantee you that Party will never again come to power.



oh well as a Muslim i think for us Muslims and Christians should be same. We should see both of these religions with same eye...... if you read the holy qur'an mostly it mentioned "Yahood-o-Nasara in the same verse". It also mentioned they will never be your well wishers unless you accept their religions........ then why we have so much diplomatic relationships with West and we hate Israel?

Ok i can understand you differ because of Palestine then why do you forget millions of Muslims have been killed/slaughtered in Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa and all over the world by Christians...... why don't you treat them like Israel?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

SilentNinja said:


> Good point, not everyone is a enemy as some people suggest!
> 
> Jews aren't all bad! I knew a lot of good Jews back in America, i respected them and they respected me, nothing about religion came in between us!



no reason why religion should have been brought up in the first place.....

religion is a private matter

by the way, not all Jews are israeli.....though I am sure majority of Jews show solidarity towards Israel.

Tiny tiny miniscule piece of land, yet they are so strong because they give 'jazba' and 'mehnat' towards Israel


and they sure damn know how to lobby.......whether you like them or dont like them, you gotta respect them.


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## Hyde

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no reason why religion should have been brought up in the first place.....
> 
> religion is a private matter
> 
> by the way, not all Jews are israeli.....though I am sure majority of Jews show solidarity towards Israel.
> 
> Tiny tiny miniscule piece of land, yet they are so strong because they give 'jazba' and 'mehnat' towards Israel
> 
> 
> and they sure damn know how to lobby.......whether you like them or dont like them, you gotta respect them.



agree... the way jews are united.... i guess nobody can compete with them

i remember one true story told by somebody when he went to germany (or somebody he knows went to germany) and there were 2 shops owned by Jews and both jews did not like each other...... and he went to one of the shop asked something but that Jew said its not available in his shop and go to another shop opposite him of another Jew and he went there and purchased. Later on somebody asked him you don't like that jew but still u sent that person to his shop although the next shop also sells the same product and he replied saying yes i don't like him but he is a Jew in the end and i wanted that man to buy this product from Jew instead of my next door neighbour


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## zraver

Mr X said:


> Ok i can understand you differ because of Palestine then why do you forget millions of Muslims have been killed/slaughtered in Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa and all over the world by Christians...... why don't you treat them like Israel?



By far the biggest killer of Muslims is Muslims. Iran-Iraq, Afghan Civil War, Iraq-Kurds, Pakistan-Bangladesh, Sudan, Lybia-Chad-Egypt.

After Muslims, the next biggest killer is Communists- Soviet Union and Peoples Republic of China.

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## Hyde

zraver said:


> By far the biggest killer of Muslims is Muslims. Iran-Iraq, Afghan Civil War, Iraq-Kurds, Pakistan-Bangladesh, Sudan, Lybia-Chad-Egypt.
> 
> *After Muslims, the next biggest killer is Communists- Soviet Union and Peoples Republic of China*.



well not exactly........ i know they killed millions of muslims couple of centuries ago but i was refering to this era only. In this era a part from Muslims itself..... christians killed the most


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## FreekiN

pak-yes said:


> *You have an Israeli friend.No wonder you have ideals such as Miss Pakistan.*But listen 99.99% Pakistanis don't like Israel.Just tell any Political Party to even suggest recognizing Israel and i guarantee you that Party will never again come to power.



Implying that being friends and playing soccer with an Israeli changes 'ideals.'


----------



## Canaan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i dont see how him having israeli friend reflects anything bad on his character? We dont know who this israeli is. So who are we. Humei kya?
> 
> actually israelis didnt start the wars in Lebanon or Gaza. The problem with israel was their disproportionate response, and the methods they used to "defend" themselves in largely populated civilian areas
> 
> 
> attacks on our nuclear facilities was definately no joke at the time, i can guarantee you that....now, I can laugh on it because it never happened. I can salute the men and women in uniform who protected/protect/always will protect our country and serve it.
> 
> Until and unless IAF (israel air force) sends aircrafts and stations them in india -- I am not at all worried about them. Our problems are closer to home, on eastern and northern border.



I am sorry, Israel didn't start the war in Gaza?

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## Canaan

Mr X said:


> agree... the way jews are united.... i guess nobody can compete with them
> 
> i remember one true story told by somebody when he went to germany (or somebody he knows went to germany) and there were 2 shops owned by Jews and both jews did not like each other...... and he went to one of the shop asked something but that Jew said its not available in his shop and go to another shop opposite him of another Jew and he went there and purchased. Later on somebody asked him you don't like that jew but still u sent that person to his shop although the next shop also sells the same product and he replied saying yes i don't like him but he is a Jew in the end and i wanted that man to buy this product from Jew instead of my next door neighbour



Jews are united when it comes to Israel. But the Israeli society is fragmented. Racism is alive and well among Jews in Israel. You have the Ashkenazim who discriminate against other Jews, especially Arab Jews and Ethiopian Jews a sort of cast system if you want.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Mr X said:


> agree... the way jews are united.... i guess nobody can compete with them
> 
> i remember one true story told by somebody when he went to germany (or somebody he knows went to germany) and there were 2 shops owned by Jews and both jews did not like each other...... and he went to one of the shop asked something but that Jew said its not available in his shop and go to another shop opposite him of another Jew and he went there and purchased. Later on somebody asked him you don't like that jew but still u sent that person to his shop although the next shop also sells the same product and he replied saying yes i don't like him but he is a Jew in the end and i wanted that man to buy this product from Jew instead of my next door neighbour



they dont suffer from jealousy amongst eachother the way some of us do. And they never screw eachother over. I am confident that this really is a true story and not fiction. I find it easy to believe.

Pakistan alone is 170 million people. Imagine if every single one of our people were equipped and willing to give back to Pakistan the same way the Israelis (or "friends" of israel) give back to Israel.

My God, just imagine how strong we would be. And by the way, there are many Pakistanis inside and out who do give back to the motherland. but more needs to be done. That is a whole other discussion.

Zraver, yes i agree Muslims have been killed a lot by the hands of other Muslims. But it was external countries that promoted such dreadful turn of events.

Iran-Iraq war --- West was arming both to the teeth instead of mediating.

Pakistan and Bangladesh (E. Pakistan) were never really one united country to begin with. Outside meddling and callous internal policies led to events leading to the violence.






p.s. you forgot the Lebanese civil war; and ongoing events in Yemen, Somalia, Iraq, Sudan 



ALAS!!!

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## Kompromat

Nothing can come as an alternative to Peace.

All of Us would like to set our foot in Masjid Ul Aqsa , The dome of Rock , The Graves of our Prophets & Other holy places that we share no matter what our religion is.

What we must do is to work for peace and stability & if it is achieved in form of two states then i can assure , i would be one of those first ones to fly to the holy Land Inshallah.

Me or any others have no problem with Israel as long as it exists peacefully with Palestine .

Thanks

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## Hyde

Black blood said:


> Nothing can come as an alternative to Peace.
> 
> All of Us would like to set our foot in Masjid Ul Aqsa , The dome of Rock , The Graves of our Prophets & Other holy places that we share no matter what our religion is.
> 
> What we must do is to work for peace and stability & if it is achieved in form of two states then i can assure , i would be one of those first ones to fly to the holy Land Inshallah.
> 
> Me or any others have no problem with Israel as long as it exists peacefully with Palestine .
> 
> Thanks



yeah agree and i think the permanent solution to this problem is nobody keep the hold on that place........ let everybody practice their religion in the Dome of a rock. Just seperate that area from both Israel and Palestine and visa free for both countries (and possibly all countries) very similar to vatican city. If there will be no control of Israel of palestine all tourists can go there and visit these holy places, worship and come back

Jerusalem has been central of wars in history and if somehow all of us can agree to make it a nuteral place for all religions we can avoid wars in future

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## zraver

Mr X said:


> well not exactly........ i know they killed millions of muslims couple of centuries ago but i was refering to this era only. In this era a part from Muslims itself..... christians killed the most



Go recheck your sources, I was talking the modern era as well. Saddam is responsible for the deaths of over 1 million muslims

Omar al-Bashir and his predecessor, while less lethal to Muslims has killed over two million Christians and animist, the Afghan civil war has claimed over 1 million lives, the soviet occupation 1 million more. Bangladesh perhaps as many as 3 million. We have no idea of the true numbers of dead via the Shah or the clerics in Iran. Likewise we don;t know exactly how many Muslim workers in the gulf states that are forced into virtual slavery die each year in the Gulf states...

After Muslims come the communists, Stalin and Mao both saw organized religion as a threat to their rule and cracked down hard. We also know that Afghan communists supported by Moscow, and later Soviet troops started the whole mess we now know as Afghanistan.

The last major killing of Muslims by Christians was WWI when the Ottoman Empire lost a 1/4 million troops in combat. Some people will point to Iraq, but of the 104,000 dead there, 80% were killed in Muslim on Muslim sectarian violence.


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## jeypore

Black blood said:


> Its not funny !
> 
> 
> It was you who started it , Well Israel has Tried to Attack us for a couple of times with their Indian friends but they did not had any "Balls" so stop spreading your BS all over the place.
> 
> 
> 
> And why it does not matter? / to you or to us.
> 
> 
> 
> Who is Spending 100 Billion Dollars on weapons ?


I swear, your response to me sounds like a Horse Shoe Crab who is filled with blue blood (which is copper base).

PS. I must make sure Webby does not delete again, so nicer language to your people Webby!!!!!



Thanks...


----------



## MastanKhan

Canaan said:


> Jews are united when it comes to Israel. But the Israeli society is fragmented. Racism is alive and well among Jews in Israel. You have the Ashkenazim who discriminate against other Jews, especially Arab Jews and Ethiopian Jews a sort of cast system if you want.



Hi,

The only manner the arabs will see some success is if they make peace with the israelis---peace will hurt israel more---all these different sects will turn on each other---. 

Muslims overall, as they have no interaction with the jews, are clueless to how much rascism the jews have for each other---you want to take out israel---give it peace---peace will destroy israel---it is war that is keeping israel together.

Israel will create situations intentionally that there would be no peace.

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## Sinnerman108

jeypore said:


> I swear, your response to me sounds like a Horse Shoe Crab who is filled with blue blood (which is copper base).
> 
> PS. I must make sure Webby does not delete again, so nicer language to your people Webby!!!!!
> 
> Thanks...




Boss....
If your patience is low, then I would suggest you work on that.

I think, Israeli Jew or a Muslim any where may play India for a while
but would eventually never accept.

Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they would detest Pagans just as much.

Maybe the Israeli member can tell us what he thinks about Pagans ?

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## jeypore

salman108 said:


> Boss....
> If your patience is low, then I would suggest you work on that.
> 
> I think, Israeli Jew or a Muslim any where may play India for a while
> but would eventually never accept.
> 
> Ask a Jew or a Muslim and *they would detest Pagans just as much.*
> Maybe the Israeli member can tell us what he thinks about Pagans ?



You sir are an religious fool, where only Street is "Main St." The Only problem with Main st. is that it exist in every American town.

Thanks for your great contributions!!!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

FreekiN said:


> I have a friend who is Israeli. We play soccer together occasionally. Also have an israeli substitute teacher in my High school who is really nice.
> 
> I wonder why they are letting me live in peace?



I wish u was living in gaza.And then id ask you this same question.

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## Canaan

gentlemen:
There is a problem though regarding Jerusalem.
The problem is that Masjid Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock according to religious jews, are built on top of their so called temple. Meaning that they want to demolish these two as they consider it an occupation.
Working to Rebuild the Third Temple in Jerusalem
Building and expanding settlements are aimed at isolating Jerusalem, and tipping the demography to jewish advantage.


Notice exactly where the Jews are "constructing", right next to al aqsa mosque. Experts have warned that such construction, especially the sub-terranean, might erode the whole foundation beneath the masjid.








Another picture showing the plan of taking over Jerusalem


And finally an idea of what we might expect Palestine to look like in the future

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## Sinnerman108

jeypore said:


> You sir are an religious fool, where only Street is "Main St." The Only problem with Main st. is that it exist in every American town.
> 
> Thanks for your great contributions!!!



Ahhh... no offense was intended....

however my point was that religious sentiments are strong both in 
Israel and Muslim world, and the same sentiments go on and play 
part in shaping political policies.

Thus I needed to understand how would a potential India Israel marriage play out in all eventualities.


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## leon

salman108 said:


> Ahhh... no offense was intended....
> 
> however my point was that religious sentiments are strong both in
> Israel and Muslim world, and the same sentiments go on and play
> part in shaping political policies.
> 
> Thus I needed to understand how would a potential India Israel marriage play out in all eventualities.



the relation between as had only just started,it still has a long way to go
by the way having a large muslim population and some communist parties means the relation have very much objection also
but our association will definitly grow


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## jeypore

salman108 said:


> Ahhh... no offense was intended....
> 
> however my point was that religious sentiments are strong both in
> Israel and Muslim world, and the same sentiments go on and play
> part in shaping political policies.
> 
> Thus I needed to understand* how would a potential India Israel marriage play out in all eventualities*.



Who Knows HOW this marriage Places out, but I do know one thing, it is bad for great PAKISTAN.

Again, the problem is India is thinking about defending itself as well Israel, well there is a correlation, and the problem is the defending it self against foreign Muslims. Here is your deep answer of theological and Political problem

Thanks.


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## Adwitiya

salman108 said:


> Boss....
> If your patience is low, then I would suggest you work on that.
> 
> I think, Israeli Jew or a Muslim any where may play India for a while
> but would eventually never accept.
> 
> Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they would detest Pagans just as much.
> 
> Maybe the Israeli member can tell us what he thinks about Pagans ?



Sir not everyone is religious blind... We have come closer because of the problems which we share of terrorism which are quite similar and for the sake of similar interst.... and at the end of the day the pagans of India consider their guests as their gods so if anyone looks evil to them they look evil towards India


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## Sinnerman108

Adwitiya said:


> Sir not everyone is religious blind... We have come closer because of the problems which we share of terrorism which are quite similar and for the sake of similar interst.... and at the end of the day the pagans of India consider their guests as their gods so if anyone looks evil to them they look evil towards India



I agree, that there are religious folks and then there are secular folks. (although logically secular can not exist).

However are you trying to imply that Israel -> Jews are not religiously inclined ? 

or are you suggesting that India is immune to religious political tones?

For all I know they(Israel) have stuck hard to their scripture and acted in the spirit of the same.

All I was trying to understand was what if the same problem arises with Israel that you have with Pakistan ( i.e Pagans VS Monotheist)?

What then ?


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## Adwitiya

salman108 said:


> I agree, that there are religious folks and then there are secular folks. (although logically secular can not exist).
> 
> However are you trying to imply that Israel -> Jews are not religiously inclined ?
> 
> or are you suggesting that India is immune to religious political tones?
> 
> For all I know they(Israel) have stuck hard to their scripture and acted in the spirit of the same.
> 
> All I was trying to understand was what if the same problem arises with Israel that you have with Pakistan ( i.e Pagans VS Monotheist)?
> 
> What then ?



even indians are religiously inclined. and israel was created on the name of religon but when dealing with interntaonal matters we do not mix religon with it. International co operations are formed based on the interests not on the basis of being pagans or being monotheist. by the way do you think Hinduism is a polytheist religion?


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## Kompromat

jeypore said:


> I swear, your response to me sounds like a Horse Shoe Crab who is filled with blue blood (which is copper base).



This is what you learn at school ? 



> PS. I must make sure Webby does not delete again, so nicer language to your people Webby!!!!!



You can use your normal Language , i don't mind.

But it will back fire as you know !





> Thanks...



Thanks


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## Abu Zolfiqar

this is about Pakistan-Israel, so i'm not sure how hindu/india got into the picture

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## leon

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is about Pakistan-Israel, so i'm not sure how hindu/india got into the picture



when u talk abt israel and pakistan ,india will b always present in the picture


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## Desert Fox

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is about Pakistan-Israel, so i'm not sure how hindu/india got into the picture



indians always Hijack every thread

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## pak-yes

Well Indians Infiltrate everywhere.lol.

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## leon

pak-yes said:


> Well Indians Infiltrate everywhere.lol.



good u accepted that


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pak-yes said:


> Well Indians Infiltrate everywhere.lol.



to get back on point; we should try to bypass this "urge" to bring up india in this conversation.

would be nice to have at least one thread where this india is not brought up all the time

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## pak-yes

Self Delete


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## Kompromat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> this is about Pakistan-Israel, so i'm not sure how hindu/india got into the picture



Because they like to poke their nose in everything by posting Nonsense BS in each thread few of them borrowed from their ministary of forigen affairs.

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## Kompromat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to get back on point; we should try to bypass this "urge" to bring up india in this conversation.
> 
> would be nice to have at least one thread where this india is not brought up all the time



Agreed sir!

But can i have your kind opinion about those indians who try to defend the crimes of their newly born zionist brother from another mother? 

They bring their own neck in the discussions so what shall we do!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Black blood said:


> Agreed sir!
> 
> But can i have your kind opinion about those indians who try to defend the crimes of their newly born zionist brother from another mother?
> 
> They bring their own neck in the discussions so what shall we do!



it makes sense for them.

look at patterns

as for intruding into discussions, not much we can do about it. My mechanic told me last week that I am a "dictator in the making"

fortunately for this forum, there are defined rules and moderators who enforce them. Quite a democratic arrangement.

Therefore I have little say in their exponential growth here, or other factors; for better, or for worse.


As for israel, i still think we should extend a branch of some sort. Realistically, we wont recognize them officially until the Palestinian issue is resolved. This recent incident in Dubai involving Mossad's role in another extra-judicial killing sure as hell doesn't help solve the conflict.

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## Kompromat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it makes sense for them.
> 
> look at patterns
> 
> as for intruding into discussions, not much we can do about it. My mechanic told me last week that I am a "dictator in the making"
> 
> fortunately for this forum, there are defined rules and moderators who enforce them. Quite a democratic arrangement.
> 
> Therefore I have little say in their exponential growth here, or other factors; for better, or for worse.
> 
> 
> As for israel, i still think we should extend a branch of some sort. Realistically, we wont recognize them officially until the Palestinian issue is resolved. *This recent incident in Dubai involving Mossad's role in another extra-judicial killing sure as hell doesn't help solve the conflict.*



"Laton kay bhoot baton se nhi Mantay"

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## Jigs

pak-yes said:


> In other words turn a blind eye.And even if we did those Israeli's won't let us live in Peace.



The Turkish PM never turned a blind eye to what happened in Gaza he said it like it is.







Turkey and Israel may be allies but that doesn't mean we are going to turn a blind eye to genocide. I don't support Erdogan but what he did here was just.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Jigs a&#287;abey. I follow Turkish political developments very closely, as Turkiye is like my second home and a dear country to me. AKP government has done great things, especially in Istanbul as far as commerce and development are concerned. Ba&#351;bakan Erdo&#287;an is a charismatic figure. He stands by your country's interests and by its honour. I would like to see more cooperation between AKP and MHP (&#252;lk&#252;c&#252;ler). But if you really don't like or support him, hand him over to us. We need leader like him. Turkish foreign relations with israel were bruised, but i don't think it will cause a dent as far as tourism or defence deals are concerned. Azerbayjan was in similar situation with them during 2006 Hezbollah-israel war

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## Jigs

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Jigs a&#287;abey. I follow Turkish political developments very closely, as Turkiye is like my second home and a dear country to me. AKP government has done great things, especially in Istanbul as far as commerce and development are concerned. Ba&#351;bakan Erdo&#287;an is a charismatic figure. He stands by your country's interests and by its honour. I would like to see more cooperation between AKP and MHP (ülkücüler). But if you really don't like or support him, hand him over to us. We need leader like him. Turkish foreign relations with israel were bruised, but i don't think it will cause a dent as far as tourism or defence deals are concerned. Azerbayjan was in similar situation with them during 2006 Hezbollah-israel war



Take him brother. I am a strong supporter of the military which is in my eyes and many others is the most secular force in Turkey right now. The only party i support is CHP which i believe also has its flaws but still follows a Kemalist Ideology at their core along with the Military in Turkey. Dividing people against the military and the governing body should never happen period. I will say this though Erdogan does get things done and fast something Pakistan can use. I do like some of his reforms which helped us reach a better standing with our EU membership.

And you are right soon after that speech at davos turkey signed for more Israeli UAVs and tourism only took a minor hit. Still i feel the international community needs to put Israel in its place sometimes and make clear that some things are just unacceptable


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## Canaan

to our Indian friends.
Why do you insist on doing the same mistake the US did?
Wouldn't be better for you to have 1.6 billion Muslims as friends than less than 20 million Jews?
Jews have their own agenda of turning the West and who ever they can against the world's Muslims in order to justify their ethnic cleansing program. Don't fall into that trap, because in the case of a new world war, guess who will be fighting the war physically and who will be waiting in the background to take over banks and countries in order to make money. It's a Zionist Jew specialty to have their enemies destroy each other. That's why they managed to survive in spite of most of the world hating them.

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## Adwitiya

Canaan said:


> to our Indian friends.
> Why do you insist on doing the same mistake the US did?
> Wouldn't be better for you to have 1.6 billion Muslims as friends than less than 20 million Jews?
> Jews have their own agenda of turning the West and who ever they can against the world's Muslims in order to justify their ethnic cleansing program. Don't fall into that trap, because in the case of a new world war, guess who will be fighting the war physically and who will be waiting in the background to take over banks and countries in order to make money. It's a Zionist Jew specialty to have their enemies destroy each other. That's why they managed to survive in spite of most of the world hating them.



Indians already have good relation with all Muslim states apart from pakistan... the issues with bangladesh are getting resolved. we already have huge trade with middle east. we are the third largest muslim population and a secular nation. how can we be again our own people. 

but on the same grounds we are not against jews either. they also are our friends. they suffer terrorism in the same way as we suffer. Things take a very diffrent perspective when they are seen from the lens of Islamic terrorism which has nothing islamic about it. but this creates a divide showing that indians are aginst muslims and muslims are against indians just because of a word.

As far as palestine is considered we want a peaceful solution which cannot be achieved either by firing rockets into Israel nor by military offensives from Israel... we have been involved palestine as well as with Israel both. so our stand is neutral in this regard though we want peace in the region. but it is upto the people of israel and palestine to decide on how to achieve it. Indians would be the first one if both them carve out a peaceful solutions to support.

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## Kompromat

Canaan said:


> to our Indian friends.
> Why do you insist on doing the same mistake the US did?
> Wouldn't be better for you to have 1.6 billion Muslims as friends than less than 20 million Jews?
> Jews have their own agenda of turning the West and who ever they can against the world's Muslims in order to justify their ethnic cleansing program. Don't fall into that trap, because in the case of a new world war, guess who will be fighting the war physically and who will be waiting in the background to take over banks and countries in order to make money. It's a Zionist Jew specialty to have their enemies destroy each other. That's why they managed to survive in spite of most of the world hating them.




*"Do not Interrupt an Idiot when he is doing a Mistake  "*

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## Adwitiya

Black blood said:


> *"Do not Interrupt an Idiot when he is doing a Mistake  "*



we are not interrupting you bhai dont worry about that... our policies are simple as i stated in the previous post.


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## Kompromat

Adwitiya said:


> we are not interrupting you bhai dont worry about that... our policies are simple as i stated in the previous post.



Now you are trying to be smarty pants by reverting back the argument .

I was not talking to you in the first place so your better mind your own business !

This is what your problem is , you do not take anything straight but modify it to "Fit" your size ...Back stabbers !

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## Adwitiya

Black blood said:


> Now you are trying to be smarty pants by reverting back the argument .
> 
> I was not talking to you in the first place so your better mind your own business !



well i m so sorry to say you automatically called us in when you called us an idiot...



Black blood said:


> This is what your problem is , you do not take anything straight but modify it to "Fit" your size ...Back stabbers !





what can we do when you show just ur back to us we can we do. next time try face to face we will stab you in chest. happy now.


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## Canaan

Adwitiya said:


> Indians already have good relation with all Muslim states apart from pakistan... the issues with bangladesh are getting resolved. we already have huge trade with middle east. we are the third largest muslim population and a secular nation. how can we be again our own people.
> 
> but on the same grounds we are not against jews either. they also are our friends. they suffer terrorism in the same way as we suffer. Things take a very diffrent perspective when they are seen from the lens of Islamic terrorism which has nothing islamic about it. but this creates a divide showing that indians are aginst muslims and muslims are against indians just because of a word.
> 
> As far as palestine is considered we want a peaceful solution which cannot be achieved either by firing rockets into Israel nor by military offensives from Israel... we have been involved palestine as well as with Israel both. so our stand is neutral in this regard though we want peace in the region. but it is upto the people of israel and palestine to decide on how to achieve it. Indians would be the first one if both them carve out a peaceful solutions to support.



unfortunately, the ordinary muslim is seeing an zio-indian alliance growing. Zionists are playing on the anti-muslim sentiment in the world right now, and therefore, you would unwillingly be connected in that hence. I would understand you if Israel was a fair and peaceful country who only minds its own business. But reality is that it was built on ethnic cleansing of a people, it's predominantly racist, it terrorizes anyone who dare question it, wages aggressive wars in neighboring countries, assassinates political opponents, annexes territories gained in war, continues occupation, kills civilians and destroys civilian infrastructure etc etc etc.

My personal opinion is that you will gain more by finding an ally who has not lost it. Israel is like a mad dog, paranoid and bites people to the left and right. You are looked upon as an ally to israel by many muslims, and hence approve of the above mentioned wrongdoings.
You should instead think longterm.

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## leon

Black blood said:


> *"Do not Interrupt an Idiot when he is doing a Mistake  "*



i saw an another guy write that we hijack the thread,even when we r out of disscussion,this is the messages we recive,then they complain we r trolling and hijacked the thread


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## leon

Canaan said:


> unfortunately, the ordinary muslim is seeing an zio-indian alliance growing. Zionists are playing on the anti-muslim sentiment in the world right now, and therefore, you would unwillingly be connected in that hence. I would understand you if Israel was a fair and peaceful country who only minds its own business. But reality is that it was built on ethnic cleansing of a people, it's predominantly racist, it terrorizes anyone who dare question it, wages aggressive wars in neighboring countries, assassinates political opponents, annexes territories gained in war, continues occupation, kills civilians and destroys civilian infrastructure etc etc etc.
> 
> My personal opinion is that you will gain more by finding an ally who has not lost it. Israel is like a mad dog, paranoid and bites people to the left and right. You are looked upon as an ally to israel by many muslims, and hence approve of the above mentioned wrongdoings.
> You should instead think longterm.



see buddy how can a nation become wrong if ur islam think so,that have nothing to do with world policies

and i dont percive israel as a racist nation,they just have a philosophy-eye for an eye

when these terrorist attacks them kill their children and women what do u expect they will sit back

it is because of their muscle power they survive today

and about indo israel relation i dont know why islamic nations r fearing,we have friendly relation with a number of nations,some of them r counted among our biggest trading partners,and india itself has the 3rd biggest muslim population


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## pak-yes

> and i dont percive israel as a racist nation



Care to Enlighten us Why?



> when these terrorist attacks them kill their children and women what do u expect they will sit back



Ya for 1 Israeli killed they kill 100 Palestinians with Phosphorous bombs.


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## leon

pak-yes said:


> Care to Enlighten us Why?


why u have a problem with that,u dont have hatred towards israeli,so do i call u also a racist


pak-yes said:


> for 1 Israeli killed they kill 100 Palestinians with Phosphorous bombs



first of all why kill an israeli


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## su-47

Canaan said:


> unfortunately, the ordinary muslim is seeing an zio-indian alliance growing. Zionists are playing on the anti-muslim sentiment in the world right now, and therefore, you would unwillingly be connected in that hence. I would understand you if Israel was a fair and peaceful country who only minds its own business. But reality is that it was built on ethnic cleansing of a people, it's predominantly racist, it terrorizes anyone who dare question it, wages aggressive wars in neighboring countries, assassinates political opponents, annexes territories gained in war, continues occupation, kills civilians and destroys civilian infrastructure etc etc etc.
> 
> My personal opinion is that you will gain more by finding an ally who has not lost it. Israel is like a mad dog, paranoid and bites people to the left and right. You are looked upon as an ally to israel by many muslims, and hence approve of the above mentioned wrongdoings.
> You should instead think longterm.



Canaan, I understand what you mean, but you have to also see it from our perspective. As a sovereign nation, we have to look out for our interests, just like every other country in the world. To Indians, India comes first. Then comes the countries which help and support us. 

We have our fair share of adversaries. Aside from that, we are also plagued by terrorism. We need allies who stand by us. Even when we had no ties with Israel, most of the muslim world supported Pakistan, our adversary, over India. This was the case ever since independance. They even sent their planes to help Pakistan during the Indo-Pak wars. 

Israel, on the other hand, has supported us strongly ever since we established relations with them. They supply us with state-of-the-art technology at affordable prices so we may shore up our defences against any military aggression. They help us in our counter-terrorist activities. Also, they act as a bridge between India and the USA, and the Jewish lobby in USA is generally pro-Indian. All this helps enhance India's stance in the world. 

In addition, the Israelis even recently said that India's defences matter to them as much as their own. This is not something a nation says lightly. That shows the depth of Indo-Israeli relationship. The last time we had such a strong ally was when Leonid Brazhnev sent a sub to counter US carrier threat to India in 1971. 

Now you tell me, how can we dump an ally like Israel, who has helped us so much, for the sake of the Muslim world, who has always favoured Pakistan over India?

India has always supported an independent Palestine. We sent peacekeepers to Lebanon after the 2006 war, and helped thousands of Lebanese with medical care and supplies. If I recall correctly, even Hezbollah lauded our efforts to help the Lebanese. 

India was never against the Muslim world, despite them always turning on us in our time of need. We are home to the third largest Muslim population in the world. India has never supported Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands or killing of civilians. 

India is one of the few countries that has great relations with Israel, and yet shares a reasonably good relationship with Israel's adversaries. I believe India can act as a mediator to try solve the Palestine issue, but we will need co-operation from both sides.

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## pak-yes

> first of all why kill an israeli



So Actually you do justify the killings.and also when you have been living in an Open Air Prison for 3 years what are you supposed to do throw Flowers at them.
I will Ask you that similar Question if you were kept starved without Basic Necessities what Would you do?

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## pak-yes

> for the sake of the Muslim world, who has always favoured Pakistan over India?



I didn't Expected this king of Comment from Such a good Indian Member.Islamic World Supported Pakistan against India.It's the Biggest Joke of the Century.

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## su-47

pak-yes said:


> I didn't Expected this king of Comment from Such a good Indian Member.Islamic World Supported Pakistan against India.It's the Biggest Joke of the Century.



I think my comments came off a little stronger than I intended. I honestly didn't mean to phrase it in such an aggressive way. My intention was to say India can't dump an ally to please other nations, who have never supported us whole-heartedly. 

Unfortunately its not a joke. Now I didn't say everyone in the Islamic world supports Pakistan over India, but that most countries do. Lets take the indo-pak wars. Jordan, Turkey and some other nations supplied fighter aircraft to Pakistan. That is the most support you can receive, short of full military assistance!

Also, pak pilots get to go to these nations and test fly their latest fighter aircraft. many Islamic countries congratulated pak over nuclear tests, but India didn't receive any such compliments. Isn't it evident then that in case of war, these countries will support pak over India?

Now, everyone who knows me will know that I never promote hate speeches or badmouth anyone. I am not saying countries supporting pak over India is wrong. All I am saying is that India can't dump Israel for these countries, when these countries prefer Pakistan over India!

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## totach7

su-47 said:


> I think my comments came off a little stronger than I intended. I honestly didn't mean to phrase it in such an aggressive way. My intention was to say India can't dump an ally to please other nations, who have never supported us whole-heartedly.
> 
> Unfortunately its not a joke. Now I didn't say everyone in the Islamic world supports Pakistan over India, but that most countries do. Lets take the indo-pak wars. Jordan, Turkey and some other nations supplied fighter aircraft to Pakistan. That is the most support you can receive, short of full military assistance!
> 
> Also, pak pilots get to go to these nations and test fly their latest fighter aircraft. many Islamic countries congratulated pak over nuclear tests, but India didn't receive any such compliments. Isn't it evident then that in case of war, these countries will support pak over India?
> 
> Now, everyone who knows me will know that I never promote hate speeches or badmouth anyone. I am not saying countries supporting pak over India is wrong. All I am saying is that India can't dump Israel for these countries, when these countries prefer Pakistan over India!



Why your clever insight sound at the end like an apology ??

Israel is a good friend of India !


IDF ARMOR: 1973 Yom Kippur war-IDF armor in combat

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## pak-yes

> I think my comments came off a little stronger than I intended. I honestly didn't mean to phrase it in such an aggressive way. My intention was to say India can't dump an ally to please other nations, who have never supported us whole-heartedly.
> 
> Unfortunately its not a joke. Now I didn't say everyone in the Islamic world supports Pakistan over India, but that most countries do. Lets take the indo-pak wars. Jordan, Turkey and some other nations supplied fighter aircraft to Pakistan. That is the most support you can receive, short of full military assistance!
> 
> Also, pak pilots get to go to these nations and test fly their latest fighter aircraft. many Islamic countries congratulated pak over nuclear tests, but India didn't receive any such compliments. Isn't it evident then that in case of war, these countries will support pak over India?
> 
> Now, everyone who knows me will know that I never promote hate speeches or badmouth anyone. I am not saying countries supporting pak over India is wrong. All I am saying is that India can't dump Israel for these countries, when these countries prefer Pakistan over India!



No. Most Islamic Countries Support India rather than Pakistan.Supplying few Air crafts is One thing but i am talking about the general attitude of the Muslims of the world towards Pakistan.

In Present times setting Aside Saudi Arabia(Turkey also but they are dispute between secular and Islamic so i will not Include them) there isn't a single country that Pakistan can rely upon in PRESENT TIME.

And Even Relations with Saudi Arabia are due to the feelings of Pakistanis towards Arabs and Makkah,Madina.

I have thought a lot about this topic and came to the conclusion was due to Pakistan incompetent Foreign Policy.One of The things in which Pakistan has failed Badly is Foreign Policy.

There have countless occasions on which the Foreign Policy failed if Pakistan Foreign Policy had been good there would a different Pakistan today. 



> Why your clever insight sound at the end like an apology ??



If i don't agree with his view that doesn't mean i don't respect him.There are very very very few Indians(NO OFFENCE to Indians but this my general view adopted after being on this forum for 6 months) with whom a Person can have a Constructive discussion.
And he is one of them.

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## courageneverdies

moving_ahead said:


> FIRST OF ALL THE IMPRESION U GIVE TO MY MIND IS TOTALY RACIST BANI ISRAELI ,,THE WAY U GET ON RAMEEZ IS RACIST TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF,,,WAT INTRODUCTION U NEED AS HE IS PAKISTANI FIRST OF ALL...U MUST COMENT AT FORUM RIGHT AWAY RATHER TALKING GARBISH,,,
> 
> NEXT AS WE ARE MUSLIM U KNW BEST WAT ISLAM HAS TEACH US ABOUT YAHOODO NISARA..OTHER THING UR NOT KID TO TEACH U FURTHER...MR KHAN
> 
> WHY CANT WE MAKE TECHNOLOGY COMPARISON TO OTHER COUNTRY ...



WHAT DID I SAY??????????

KIT OUT


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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> Why your clever insight sound at the end like an apology ??
> 
> Israel is a good friend of India !



Its called Diplomacy !


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## su-47

totach7 said:


> Why your clever insight sound at the end like an apology ??
> 
> Israel is a good friend of India !
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR: 1973 Yom Kippur war-IDF armor in combat



I wasn't apologising for the content of my post. Just clarifying that I didn't mean it to come off agressively. 

My previous pot would be sufficient evidence that I am a strong supporter of Indo-Israeli friendship, and like most Indians I appreciate and am proud of the relationship our nations share. Let me re-iterate. Indo-Israeli relations are not going to wane in the foreseeable future. Rather, they will strengthen, and be mutually beneficial. As one member here said before, 'Shalom-Namaste!'



pak-yes said:


> No. Most Islamic Countries Support India rather than Pakistan.Supplying few Air crafts is One thing but i am talking about the general attitude of the Muslims of the world towards Pakistan.
> 
> In Present times setting Aside Saudi Arabia(Turkey also but they are dispute between secular and Islamic so i will not Include them) there isn't a single country that Pakistan can rely upon in PRESENT TIME.



I suppose its perception. Many Indians feel that the Muslim World, especially Arabs, favour Pak over India. PAF pilots stationed in Middle East and Pakistan receiving Arab aircraft during Indo-Pak wars have stregthened that perception.

As for dependability, I don't know, so can't comment. But while Pak might be DOUBTFUL of Arab help, India has no doubts at all! We know we WONT receive any help from them! Again, an example of Pakistan being favoured.

But Arabs especially see to have a soft corner for Pak. See my previous post about Pak being congratulated after nuke test. India doesn't receive that kind of favourable treatment.




pak-yes said:


> If i don't agree with his view that doesn't mean i don't respect him.There are very very very few Indians(NO OFFENCE to Indians but this my general view adopted after being on this forum for 6 months) with whom a Person can have a Constructive discussion.
> And he is one of them.



Thanks for the compliment. I just try to put my point across as nicely as i can. But honestly, I do believe there are better Indian members than me. A lot of them may get too passionate at times, but the quality of their posts and their knowledge surpass my own.

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## your last wish

Israel is good friend of us 

and the comparison of Pakistan and Israel is not possible until they face each other on ground 


Israel has upper hand as compare to Pakistan


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## Hyde

pak-yes said:


> No. Most Islamic Countries Support India rather than Pakistan.Supplying few Air crafts is One thing but i am talking about the general attitude of the Muslims of the world towards Pakistan.
> 
> In Present times setting Aside Saudi Arabia(Turkey also but they are dispute between secular and Islamic so i will not Include them) there isn't a single country that Pakistan can rely upon in PRESENT TIME.
> 
> And Even Relations with Saudi Arabia are due to the feelings of Pakistanis towards Arabs and Makkah,Madina.



no man you are wrong, most Islamic countries i would say almost every single Islamic country support Pakistan more than India. If that was the case India would have become the member of OIC easily but they could never become the member of OIC.

You see Islamic world does not finish after Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Middle East. There are 50+ Islamic countries in the world and we have very good relationships with all of them. We have very good relationships with Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Libya and other African countries as well as other Muslim countries with having major population. Even in the case of Saudi Arabia they always supported us financially and we have very close relationships with them.

I am not saying we are more closer to Saudi Arabia or other Muslim countries then any other country but we are far better than India in Muslim World.


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## Kompromat

your last wish said:


> Israel is good friend of us
> 
> and the comparison of Pakistan and Israel is not possible until they face each other on ground
> 
> 
> Israel has upper hand as compare to Pakistan



*What a deep analysis.

&#1494;&#1492; &#1502;&#1512;&#1488;&#1492; &#1488;&#1514; &#1492;&#1497;&#1491;&#1506; &#1513;&#1500;&#1498; &#1506;&#1500; &#1492;&#1504;&#1493;&#1513;&#1488; &#1488;&#1494; &#1506;&#1491;&#1497;&#1507; &#1500;&#1513;&#1502;&#1493;&#1512; &#1491;&#1497;! *


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## your last wish

well there is no doubt in technology Israel is upper as compare to Pakistan 

they has the world best tech 

and the important thing Israel has good friend relation like 
usa 
uk
france 
russia 


but pakistan has only china


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## Hyde

your last wish said:


> well there is no doubt in technology Israel is upper as compare to Pakistan
> 
> they has the world best tech
> 
> and the important thing Israel has good friend relation like
> usa
> uk
> france
> russia
> 
> 
> but pakistan has only china


well apparently we have good relationships with all above mentioned countries except Russia.......... but it is only peoples of Pakistan who hate USA by heart .... not the politicians

and we don't have similar opinions about UK or France........ i know many of the Pakistanis love UK and France and we have better diplomatic relationships with them

If ever this war takes place i mean Pak vs Israel......... then our 1 nuke can destroy the whole of Israel so i am sure Israel will never try to be oversmart with us. If ever Israel dare to fight with us, it will face similar consquences like what Aamir Khan did vs Dmitiry Salita

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## your last wish

Mr X said:


> well apparently we have good relationships with all above mentioned countries except Russia.......... but it is only peoples of Pakistan who hate USA by heart .... not the politicians
> 
> and we don't have similar opinions about UK or France........ i know many of the Pakistanis love UK and France and we have better diplomatic relationships with them
> 
> If ever this war takes place i mean Pak vs Israel......... then our 1 nuke can destroy the whole of Israel so i am sure Israel will never try to be oversmart with us. If ever Israel dare to fight with us, it will face similar consquences like what Aamir Khan did vs Dmitiry Salita
> 
> YouTube - Amir Khan vs Dimitry Salita




well sir its you think 

usa will allow you to nuke Israel ??


do you think it will be easy step 

Israel is small in size but know know the strength and technology and the way they work is so good


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## Hyde

your last wish said:


> well sir its you think
> 
> but you think usa will allow you to nuke Israel
> 
> do you think it will be easy step
> 
> Israel is small in size but know know the strength and technology and the way they work is so good



the only thing i praise about Israel is their Unity............. "Itefaaq main barkat hai" but nowadays the ballistic missiles are blind....... they do not see the unity among the peoples

and i am well aware of Israel's technology and appropriate answer shall be given to them on the given day but they will never dare to fight with us in first place so why even we talk about it?

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## shekhar

Mr X said:


> the only thing i praise about Israel is their Unity............. "Itefaaq main barkat hai" but nowadays the ballistic missiles are blind....... they do not see the unity among the peoples
> 
> and i am well aware of Israel's technology and appropriate answer shall be given to them on the given day but they will never dare to fight with us in first place so why even we talk about it?



i really dough that in near future there is war between pak and israel but if it happens pak will have to face not only israel but also israel's godfather .......UNCLE SAM now that is a problem


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## Hyde

shekhar said:


> i really dough that in near future there is war between pak and israel but if it happens pak will have to face not only israel but also israel's godfather .......UNCLE SAM now that is a problem



no never........ we have no reason to fight against Israel........neither Israel have one......... the only war seems possible is Pak vs Ind

nothing else


----------



## su-47

Mr X said:


> well apparently we have good relationships with all above mentioned countries except Russia.......... but it is only peoples of Pakistan who hate USA by heart .... not the politicians
> 
> and we don't have similar opinions about UK or France........ i know many of the Pakistanis love UK and France and we have better diplomatic relationships with them
> 
> If ever this war takes place i mean Pak vs Israel......... then our 1 nuke can destroy the whole of Israel so i am sure Israel will never try to be oversmart with us. If ever Israel dare to fight with us, it will face similar consquences like what Aamir Khan did vs Dmitiry Salita
> 
> YouTube - Amir Khan vs Dimitry Salita



U r right. One (or at most, three) pak nuke can destroy Israel, but do u think for a sec there'll be a Pakistan left to rejoice wiping out Israel? Aside from the hundreds of Israeli nukes, you can rest assured there'll be US nukes falling in pakistan as well. 

And if Indo-Israeli relations grow and we sign a military pact, u can add Indian nukes to that list. 

In the end, a total lose-lose situation!


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## Hyde

su-47 said:


> U r right. One (or at most, three) pak nuke can destroy Israel, but do u think for a sec there'll be a Pakistan left to rejoice wiping out Israel? Aside from the hundreds of Israeli nukes, you can rest assured there'll be US nukes falling in pakistan as well.
> 
> *And if Indo-Israeli relations grow and we sign a military pact, u can add Indian nukes to that list.
> *
> In the end, a total lose-lose situation!



thats the only problem i have with india..... when i was child i never hated india like other peoples but when i see the above comments made by you....... i feel like hating indians 

Israel is a cruel country and india is not....... but when indians back Israel i feel like puting them in the same category

like it or not....... but i hate India only when they support Israel 

I have dozens of Indian friends and trust me they are the best creation on earth........ but when it comes to your government supporting Israel blindly  ..........................................................


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Mr X said:


> thats the only problem i have with india..... when i was child i never hated india like other peoples but when i see the above comments made by you....... i feel like hating indians
> 
> Israel is a cruel country and india is not....... but when indians back Israel i feel like puting them in the same category
> 
> like it or not....... but i hate India only when they support Israel
> 
> I have dozens of Indian friends and trust me they are the best creation on earth........ but when it comes to your government supporting Israel blindly  ..........................................................



This is a neutral site try going to *** and u will be surprised in whatever defence forum i viisited i saw indians bashing Pakistan and bad mouthing.......So u should till now get the idea.



su-47 said:


> U r right. One (or at most, three) pak nuke can destroy Israel, but do u think for a sec there'll be a Pakistan left to rejoice wiping out Israel? Aside from the hundreds of Israeli nukes, you can rest assured there'll be US nukes falling in pakistan as well.


Do they even have nukes? and hundreds? either ur stupid ur just confused of ur existance coz they sell u some stuff.And why would usa go at war with pakistan if israel and pakistan go at war? wet dreamer


> And if Indo-Israeli relations grow and we sign a military pact, u can add Indian nukes to that list.
> 
> In the end, a total lose-lose situation!



India will be a moron *if* it joins a one day war betwen Pakistan and israel.......
Will india risk half its population dead in direct hits and other half dying of starvation and nuke effects?In somebodys elses war...
If ur boasting coz u buy israeli stuff u will join them at war its a wet dream gone bad....and if ur philosophy works what about china?wouldnt it exploit india buy muching uttar pardesh ???
And dont u think syria and other strong anti israel countries wont use the chance to finish of israel?


----------



## lionheartsalahudin

jeypore said:


> Who Knows HOW this marriage Places out, but I do know one thing, it is bad for great PAKISTAN.
> 
> Again, the problem is India is thinking about defending itself as well Israel, well there is a correlation, and the problem is the defending it self against foreign Muslims. Here is your deep answer of theological and Political problem
> 
> Thanks.



lolzz protecting israel,well any wayz israel thinks of itself as a guy and india a desi chick in this marriage and israel is protecting india thats what i gather from the israeli msg in the video,enjoy guys sorry if it has been posted before one of my south indian freinds showed me this and man was he pissed off.










The Israeli arms firm Rafael displayed this Bollywood dance number-based marketing video at the Aero India 2009 in Bangalore.

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## saurabh

@Pakistani Nationalist


> *This is a neutral site try going to *** and u will be surprised in whatever defence forum i viisited i saw indians bashing Pakistan and bad mouthing.......So u should till now get the idea.*



Your choice, you can just see some Indians bashing Pakistan, or also look at some others being neutral and in general friendly.



> *Do they even have nukes? and hundreds? either ur stupid ur just confused of ur existance coz they sell u some stuff.And why would usa go at war with pakistan if israel and pakistan go at war? wet dreamer*



You can use google if you want to know about Israeli nukes, or use your common sense - what are the chances that a country like Israel would secretly work on nukes??
Though nothing can be surely said.
And about USA. If you think they wont side with Israel in a nuclear war with Pakistan, than no comments for you..



> *India will be a moron if it joins a one day war betwen Pakistan and israel.......*


?????????



> *Will india risk half its population dead in direct hits and other half dying of starvation and nuke effects?In somebodys elses war...
> If ur boasting coz u buy israeli stuff u will join them at war its a wet dream gone bad....and if ur philosophy works what about china?wouldnt it exploit india buy muching uttar pardesh ???
> And dont u think syria and other strong anti israel countries wont use the chance to finish of israel?
> 
> *


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

saurabh said:


> @Pakistani Nationalist
> 
> 
> Your choice, you can just see some Indians bashing Pakistan, or also look at some others being neutral and in general friendly.


Im talking about majority.....




> You can use google if you want to know about Israeli nukes, or use your common sense - what are the chances that a country like Israel would secretly work on nukes??


So u mean rumours on internet are best source of information reguarding nuke issues?
If thats the cricteria then sir google pakistanis secret achievements like thermonuclear or there bombs.You will be surprised.


> And about USA. If you think they wont side with Israel in a nuclear war with Pakistan, than no comments for you..


Dont u think they would like to ease the tensions instead of jumping into wars?????remember vietnam,korea,iraq,somalis,afghan....they have never won a war.And with a downfall in economy usa wont risk itself by jumping into an armed conflict but it may help them materially.


> ?????????


Read above my post to understand what im talkin about




>


----------



## saurabh

@Pakistani Nationalist


> *Im talking about majority.....*


As I said, your choice. You can Ignore the ones you dont like, or ignore the comments you dont like.
You can see lot on members from both sides doing so.



> *So u mean rumours on internet are best source of information reguarding nuke issues?
> If thats the cricteria then sir google pakistanis secret achievements like thermonuclear or there bombs.You will be surprised.*


Certainly rumors can't be trusted. But it seems logical, that Israely do posses nukes, doesn't it? This rumor I can believe. May be I am wrong.



> *Dont u think they would like to ease the tensions instead of jumping into wars?????remember vietnam,korea,iraq,somalis,afghan....they have never won a war.And with a downfall in economy usa wont risk itself by jumping into an armed conflict but it may help them materially.
> *



They may try to subdue a convectional war, may be they will never let it happen. But the premise is, use of nukes.


> *Read above my post to understand what im talkin about*


I read that, and I know neither Pak is going at war with Israel not India will that easily join the war bw the two (if it happens). But if a country decides to join a war, it is generally a well thought off decision.



>


----------



## totach7

Mr X said:


> well apparently we have good relationships with all above mentioned countries except Russia.......... but it is only peoples of Pakistan who hate USA by heart .... not the politicians
> 
> and we don't have similar opinions about UK or France........ i know many of the Pakistanis love UK and France and we have better diplomatic relationships with them
> 
> If ever this war takes place i mean Pak vs Israel......... then our 1 nuke can destroy the whole of Israel so i am sure Israel will never try to be oversmart with us. If ever Israel dare to fight with us, it will face similar consquences like what Aamir Khan did vs Dmitiry Salita
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Amir Khan vs Dimitry Salita








How old are you? 
who is amir khan and the hell with dimitry guy
and what it has to do with Israel Pakistan relationship

grow up

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## su-47

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> This is a neutral site try going to *** and u will be surprised in whatever defence forum i viisited i saw indians bashing Pakistan and bad mouthing.......So u should till now get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Nationalist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they even have nukes? and hundreds? either ur stupid ur just confused of ur existance coz they sell u some stuff.And why would usa go at war with pakistan if israel and pakistan go at war? wet dreamer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, read up on the Israeli nuclear program. Just coz they don't parade it around doesn't mean they don't have them.
> 
> Israel and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Nuclear Weapons - Israel
> 
> Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program
> 
> Do you hav any idea of the strength of US-Israeli ties. US was even ready to go to war with the USSR in 1973, should the USSR have deployed soldiers in the Middle East to threaten Israel. Even now USA gives billions in military aid to Israel. The Jews control US economy and media. Its common knowledge. Taking on Israel is like taking on USA.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Nationalist said:
> 
> 
> 
> India will be a moron *if* it joins a one day war betwen Pakistan and israel.......
> Will india risk half its population dead in direct hits and other half dying of starvation and nuke effects?In somebodys elses war...
> If ur boasting coz u buy israeli stuff u will join them at war its a wet dream gone bad....and if ur philosophy works what about china?wouldnt it exploit india buy muching uttar pardesh ???
> And dont u think syria and other strong anti israel countries wont use the chance to finish of israel?
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read my post again. I said IF India and Israel signs a military cooperation and alliance treaty, like the one we had with the USSR. Then we would eb obliged to help Israel.
> 
> Also, if Pak nukes Israel and Israel nukes back, Pak will definitely launch its nukes at India. So an Indian retaliation is expected. This is not something I want to happen, but is the sad fact of things.
> 
> PS: Dude, I am not your average blabbermouth troll. No matter how much you try, you can't get me to fall for your flamebait.
> 
> PPS: If you are having anger management issues, take up yoga or taichi
> 
> cheers
Click to expand...


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

lionheartsalahudin said:


> lolzz protecting israel,well any wayz israel thinks of itself as a guy and india a desi chick in this marriage and israel is protecting india thats what i gather from the israeli msg in the video,enjoy guys sorry if it has been posted before one of my south indian freinds showed me this and man was he pissed off.
> 
> YouTube - StratPost.com: Israeli Rafael's Indian promo
> 
> 
> The Israeli arms firm Rafael displayed this Bollywood dance number-based marketing video at the Aero India 2009 in Bangalore.




OMG ... lol this is one horrible advertisement, a B bollywood movie is million times better then this


----------



## Developereo

su-47 said:


> And if Indo-Israeli relations grow and we sign a military pact



God, I hope India and Israel sign a joint defence pact.

It will be like bringing _laddoo_ to a Pakistan/Iran wedding  which will instantly kick India out of Afghanistan and cut all Indian access to the resource-rich CARs.

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## Kompromat



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## M.Ali Nasir

YAR Ill TELL U WHy Pakistani's ARE Against Israel BCz WHEn PAKIStan was made the one of the well known personality of Israel says that we do not have any threat from Arabians side we threat from Pakistan do what ever u can do to destroy Pakistan
akistan: Pakistan zindabad


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

su-47 said:


> Dude, read up on the Israeli nuclear program. Just coz they don't parade it around doesn't mean they don't have them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Nuclear Weapons - Israel
> 
> Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program
> 
> 
> 
> hAVE THEY EVER DONE A nuclear test?NO
> Are they a declared nuke state>NO
> Will the middleeast like a nuclear armed israel?NO
> Will usa make KSA angry by givinh israel nukes?NO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you hav any idea of the strength of US-Israeli ties. US was even ready to go to war with the USSR in 1973, should the USSR have deployed soldiers in the Middle East to threaten Israel. Even now USA gives billions in military aid to Israel. The Jews control US economy and media. Its common knowledge. Taking on Israel is like taking on USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Will USA Militarily help isr? IN case of a nuke war?????no financialy yes maybe...But usa wont send its soldiers to die and nor will arab friends leave a chance to desemate isri in such a scnerio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read my post again. I said IF India and Israel signs a military cooperation and alliance treaty, like the one we had with the USSR. Then we would eb obliged to help Israel
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> Then China will also jump into war to counter india????and claim its utter pardesh as it will be a golden chance to engage a country already in a state of war?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if Pak nukes Israel and Israel nukes back, Pak will definitely launch its nukes at India. So an Indian retaliation is expected. This is not something I want to happen, but is the sad fact of things
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> *Childish post  israi is not even the size of lahore division only one nuke will do the job for 3 milliion jews they wont have a second chance ....isra...........Kabooommmmmmmmmmmmm....RIP*PS:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, I am not your average blabbermouth troll. No matter how much you try, you can't get me to fall for your flamebait.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which flame baits?did i curse you or intimidate you?Looks like ur trying to hide ur frustration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PPS: If you are having anger management issues, take up yoga or taichi
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks but no thanks.....it would be better i start praying to Allah...its a better excerise not just for anger managment but health too.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## su-47

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> hAVE THEY EVER DONE A nuclear test?NO
> Are they a declared nuke state>NO
> Will the middleeast like a nuclear armed israel?NO
> Will usa make KSA angry by givinh israel nukes?NO



I agree that they haven't declared themselves a nuclear state. But all evidence points to Israel possessing nukes. Remember, they have never denied their nuclear capability either. Also, experts agree Israel has nukes. If the sources I provided aren't enough, check anyy article on nuclear states.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Will USA Militarily help isr? IN case of a nuke war?????no financialy yes maybe...But usa wont send its soldiers to die and nor will arab friends leave a chance to desemate isri in such a scnerio



I think u r underestimating Israeli influence in US. US might not send its soldiers to die, but US can retaliate with nuclear attack on Pakistan. Remember Pak can't strike back at USA with nukes (atleast not yet. That might change in the future)



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Then China will also jump into war to counter india????and claim its utter pardesh as it will be a golden chance to engage a country already in a state of war?



U mean Arunachal Pradesh, right? China has never claimed UP. As for invasion, they might, they might not. I can't say. A weakened India would definitely be tempting target, but if China fears that an India that has already been nuked will retaliate to any invasion with a nuclear attack might refrain from attacking. But this is just speculation. 
.


Pakistani Nationalist said:


> *Childish post  israi is not even the size of lahore division only one nuke will do the job for 3 milliion jews they wont have a second chance ....isra...........Kabooommmmmmmmmmmmm....RIP*PS:



Israel will definitely detect Pak nukes launching, and track their trajectory. The moment they realise they are the target, they will retaliate. Sure, Israel will get wiped out, but that won't stop their nukes hitting Pak. 

Also, your post is indicative of Pak hitting Israel first. What if it is other way? What if Israel nukes Pak first? There is a possibility that Pakistan's nuclear capability, especially its mobile land-based nukes might get destroyed in Israeli attack. So Pakistan's retaliatory capability will be diminished. 

Btw, I am not even counting Israel's ABM capabilities here. Since all ABM systems can be overcome, I am assuming Pak nules will get through. But there is a chance Pak nukes might be stopped, especially if Israel nukes first and some Pak nukes are destroyed. If thats the case there'll be lesser nukes launched at Israel, and thus increased chance of ABM success.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Which flame baits?did i curse you or intimidate you?Looks like ur trying to hide ur frustration



Buddy i was referring to you calling me stupid and a wet dreamer. Just read up your previous post. If those aren't flamebaits...




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Thanks but no thanks.....it would be better i start praying to Allah...its a better excerise not just for anger managment but health too.
> 
> cheers



Completely agree with u here. I was just putting forward some suggestions. If prayer works better for you, by all means....

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## pak-yes

@Pakistani Nationalist.

Brother Please Don't allow others to make fun of you by claiming Israel Doesn't have Nukes.Everyone in the world knows that Israel has minimum 200+ thermonuclear Warheads.

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## Parashuram1

Tsk Tsk... where all has this thread ventured to? Starting with a couple of boxers, then the possible bilateral relationship between Pakistan and Israel, then war possibility, resulting in a pan-Islamic alliance and finally once again as always, famously being concluded by Pakistani members pressing the nuclear button as they do always.

Don't you people think about anything else other than nuclear weapons? When there is a thread on Israelis; you plan to use the nuclear weapons, when someone is doing something wrong against Muslims in opposite corner of the world; you want to use nuclear weapons, when the Indians start arguing with you; you talk of nuclear missiles, when an American member corrects you and discusses about a potential strike against militant hideouts in autonomous districts of your border with Afghanistan, you warn United States not to mess with nuclear nation...

May I ask why so many nuclear weapons are being launched by dear fellow members on this forum instead of talking and solving the matter through strategy? I think war should be the last resort.

Besides, country-to-country conflicts are of older days; today the entire world has a bigger menace to deal with and that is terrorism. 

As for Pakistan's relation with Israelis, how about this:

Key Points

1. Pakistani government is committed to Palestinian cause
2. Israelis disagree with Pakistan's demands
3. While Israel calls it territorial dispute, Pakistani members are committed via religion.

So in the end, both of you cannot get along and that concludes this thread.

Don't you think, gentlemen?

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## Developereo

Parashuram1 said:


> Don't you think, gentlemen?



Hey, Parashuram, can you translate for me how you would say this in Geneva?

"Excuse me please, where can I take bus number seventy six?"


----------



## totach7

Developereo said:


> Hey, Parashuram, can you translate for me how you would say this in Geneva?
> 
> "Excuse me please, where can I take bus number seventy six?"



I wonder where you are and if it made you more open person


----------



## All-Green

Parashuram1 said:


> Tsk Tsk... where all has this thread ventured to? Starting with a couple of boxers, then the possible bilateral relationship between Pakistan and Israel, then war possibility, resulting in a pan-Islamic alliance and finally *once again as always, famously being concluded by Pakistani members pressing the nuclear button as they do always.
> *
> Don't you people think about anything else other than nuclear weapons? When there is a thread on Israelis; you plan to use the nuclear weapons, when someone is doing something wrong against Muslims in opposite corner of the world; you want to use nuclear weapons, when the Indians start arguing with you; you talk of nuclear missiles, when an American member corrects you and discusses about a potential strike against militant hideouts in autonomous districts of your border with Afghanistan, you warn United States not to mess with nuclear nation...
> 
> May I ask why so many nuclear weapons are being launched by dear fellow members on this forum instead of talking and solving the matter through strategy? I think war should be the last resort.
> 
> Besides, country-to-country conflicts are of older days; today the entire world has a bigger menace to deal with and that is terrorism.
> 
> As for Pakistan's relation with Israelis, how about this:
> 
> Key Points
> 
> 1. Pakistani government is committed to Palestinian cause
> 2. Israelis disagree with Pakistan's demands
> 3. While Israel calls it territorial dispute, Pakistani members are committed via religion.
> 
> So in the end, both of you cannot get along and that concludes this thread.
> 
> Don't you think, gentlemen?



There are many different views held by many Pakistanis, to generalize Pakistanis as itching to go nuclear is too much, take some time and look around the forum.

Pakistan is indeed a nuclear power and the implication of such a claim should be understood by our enemies, however nuclear weapons are for the defense of Pakistan only and even in that they are the final option when all else fails and the building is collapsing.

India and Pakistan nuclear exchange will leave them both shattered forever so that is not something both peoples should take lightly when talking about a decisive war, a decisive war would decide the end of subcontinent...in my humble opinion.

Israel is not recognized by Pakistan but unilaterally attacking it or nuking it is out of the question...mass murdering Israelis is not our intent at all.
We want a peaceful resolution of Palestine issue and will condemn any act by Israel which we deem cruel, but that does not imply a direct conflict with Israel nor do we want to kill Jews or Israelis...we simply want Palestine to be given its due share and for its citizens to live normal lives, something which we do not see happening.

If Israel reaches a settlement with Palestinians, i do not see any other reason which stops Pakistan from recognizing Israel.

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## Developereo

totach7 said:


> I wonder where you are and if it made you more open person



As my flags would indicate, I am a Pakistani-born Australian citizen.

No mystery there. No subterfuge or attempt to deceive other forum members.


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## Kompromat

Developereo said:


> As my flags would indicate, I am a Pakistani-born Australian citizen.
> 
> No mystery there. No subterfuge or attempt to *deceive other forum members.*





This is what we should expect from a Zionist 


BTW mr totach you must have read the report about your PM seriously worried abou Pakistan's WMD's and IRBM's

Waiting for your propaganda:

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## Parashuram1

Developereo said:


> Hey, Parashuram, can you translate for me how you would say this in Geneva?
> 
> "Excuse me please, where can I take bus number seventy six?"


And what has this got to do with the thread in question? You think I am "Indian" still? Keep thinking. I don't give a damn.

If there is something constructive you have with relevance to this thread, I am all ears. Otherwise kindly don't derail the thread.

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## Parashuram1

Developereo said:


> As my flags would indicate, I am a Pakistani-born Australian citizen.
> 
> No mystery there. No subterfuge or attempt to deceive other forum members.


You are a Pakistani who is granted Australian nationality. There is a big difference between your situation and mine. My both flags are Swiss because I am one from my birthright and not a migrant like you. I don't have to get confused liked you about where my loyalties lie. So stop trying to be a James Bond and try to focus on the thread.

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## Parashuram1

All-Green said:


> There are many different views held by many Pakistanis, to generalize Pakistanis as itching to go nuclear is too much, take some time and look around the forum.
> 
> Pakistan is indeed a nuclear power and the implication of such a claim should be understood by our enemies, however nuclear weapons are for the defense of Pakistan only and even in that they are the final option when all else fails and the building is collapsing.
> 
> India and Pakistan nuclear exchange will leave them both shattered forever so that is not something both peoples should take lightly when talking about a decisive war, a decisive war would decide the end of subcontinent...in my humble opinion.
> 
> Israel is not recognized by Pakistan but unilaterally attacking it or nuking it is out of the question...mass murdering Israelis is not our intent at all.
> We want a peaceful resolution of Palestine issue and will condemn any act by Israel which we deem cruel, but that does not imply a direct conflict with Israel nor do we want to kill Jews or Israelis...we simply want Palestine to be given its due share and for its citizens to live normal lives, something which we do not see happening.
> 
> If Israel reaches a settlement with Palestinians, i do not see any other reason which stops Pakistan from recognizing Israel.





> There are many different views held by many Pakistanis, to generalize Pakistanis as itching to go nuclear is too much, take some time and look around the forum.



I don't mean to offend you, but PDF is not the only forum of which I am a member. Since you are asking me to look around at the forum, I assure you that I did and only after that I am saying what I see. 

How about you all conduct a poll? I am sure that this option is there on PDF as in other defense forums that I am a member of. A frank vote by Pakistani members (only) should show what your country's citizens want from your government. A democratic and transparent way.



> Pakistan is indeed a nuclear power and the implication of such a claim should be understood by our enemies, however nuclear weapons are for the defense of Pakistan only and even in that they are the final option when all else fails and the building is collapsing.
> 
> India and Pakistan nuclear exchange will leave them both shattered forever so that is not something both peoples should take lightly when talking about a decisive war, a decisive war would decide the end of subcontinent...in my humble opinion.



100&#37; affirmative. This is what I have been trying to tell some members here while unfortunately some of them are trying to do a James Bond to fathom whether I am "Indian" or not since they find such a simple and obvious reason "supportive of India". I thank you for answering my comments with reason and logic. 



> Israel is not recognized by Pakistan but unilaterally attacking it or nuking it is out of the question...mass murdering Israelis is not our intent at all.
> We want a peaceful resolution of Palestine issue and will condemn any act by Israel which we deem cruel, but that does not imply a direct conflict with Israel nor do we want to kill Jews or Israelis...we simply want Palestine to be given its due share and for its citizens to live normal lives, something which we do not see happening.
> 
> If Israel reaches a settlement with Palestinians, i do not see any other reason which stops Pakistan from recognizing Israel.



Yes. After all, world is a democracy with various issues to support and oppose. My point to comment was not to support either side but to say that this thread has outlived its life and the bottom line is that Pakistan supports the Palestinian cause and feels that ties cannot improve until Palestinians get a country for themselves. 

Am I right?


----------



## NWO

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080267.html

Most people want peace. Its their leaders that drag them into war. For most the first half of the 20th century, the Arabs WELCOMED the Jews coming into the 'holy land'. Only after 1948 did things begin going downhill. If the Isreali government just listens to its people for a second, things can go much better. Pakistan should recognize the rights of the Isrealis people, but condenm the govnerment.

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## Kompromat

NWO said:


> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080267.html
> 
> Most people want peace. Its their leaders that drag them into war. For most the first half of the 20th century, the Arabs WELCOMED the Jews coming into the 'holy land'. Only after 1948 did things begin going downhill. If the Isreali government just listens to its people for a second, things can go much better. Pakistan should recognize the rights of the Isrealis people, but condenm the govnerment.



Shorba halal or botiyan haram !

bht khoob!


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## totach7

Black blood said:


> This is what we should expect from a Zionist
> 
> 
> BTW mr totach you must have read the report about your PM seriously worried abou Pakistan's WMD's and IRBM's
> 
> Waiting for your propaganda:



you have much problems at your home and around it
mind you...... you think Arabs care about you? I don't think so


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## pak-yes

totach7 said:


> you have much problems at your home and around it
> mind you...... you think Arabs care about you? I don't think so



We do have many Problems created by you and your Indian Friends.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

NWO said:


> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080267.html
> 
> Most people want peace. Its their leaders that drag them into war. For most the first half of the 20th century, the Arabs WELCOMED the Jews coming into the 'holy land'. Only after 1948 did things begin going downhill. If the Isreali government just listens to its people for a second, things can go much better. Pakistan should recognize the rights of the Isrealis people, but condenm the govnerment.



good point


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## totach7

pak-yes said:


> We do have many Problems created by you and your Indian Friends.



Oh yes?


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## Sinnerman108

totach7 said:


> you have much problems at your home and around it
> mind you...... you think Arabs care about you? I don't think so



I am not sure what the people of Israel are accustomed to,
but we have very good relations with arab countries and enjoy a bond 
held by faith.

Unlike people who carved out a Hypher to worship once the prophet was on the mountain we have held to the book by in large, and share a bond.

There is no point in explaining, you will just never see it !

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## paritosh

salman108 said:


> I am not sure what the people of Israel are accustomed to,
> but we have very good relations with arab countries and enjoy a bond
> held by faith.
> 
> Unlike people who carved out a Hypher to worship once the prophet was on the mountain we have held to the book by in large, and share a bond.
> 
> There is no point in explaining, you will just never see it !



I am sure that what you say is true...
one of my muslim friend worked in the gulf as an engineer with Mercedes Benz in Qatar...he wasn't a taxi driver..and he told me about how the Arabs treat the muslims of the sub-continent as second-grade muslims...
Imo Pakistanis should not let any other countries religious affiliations affect their own foreign policies.

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## Sinnerman108

paritosh said:


> I am sure that what you say is true...
> one of my muslim friend worked in the gulf as an engineer with Mercedes Benz in Qatar...he wasn't a taxi driver..and he told me about how the Arabs treat the muslims of the sub-continent as second-grade muslims...
> Imo Pakistanis should not let any other countries religious affiliations affect their own foreign policies.



Thank you for the advice,
For us, unfortunately the separation of state and religion is not possible.
and I think I can speak for Israel, the case is the same.

anyway We have had similar debates of sorts in bits and pieces
I think it is about time to dedicate a thread for the same.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

in the end, there's nothing Pakistan can do about Israel

and nothing Israel can do about Pakistan......


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## Developereo

Parashuram1 said:


> You think I am "Indian" still? Keep thinking. I don't give a damn.
> 
> If there is something constructive you have with relevance to this thread, I am all ears. Otherwise kindly don't derail the thread.



So, no answer, eh?

I fully expected you to avoid answering the question.



Parashuram1 said:


> You are a Pakistani who is granted Australian nationality. There is a big difference between your situation and mine. My both flags are Swiss because I am one from my birthright and not a migrant like you. I don't have to get confused liked you about where my loyalties lie. So stop trying to be a James Bond and try to focus on the thread.



*Busted again!*
You "admitted" that your parents were not Swiss citizens.
What you didn't know was that, unlike other countries, Switzerland does NOT grant citizenship just because you are born there.

Your ignorance of Swiss history, laws and customs gave you away a loooong time ago.

You really have to try harder next time, my Indian IT coder pretending to be Swiss friend.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

this dialogue got kinda funny =D LoL


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## Traveller

Where there is a will there is a way


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## asq

Traveller said:


> Where there is a will there is a way



Will and way has nothing to do with lies.

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## Developereo

paritosh said:


> I am sure that what you say is true...
> one of my muslim friend worked in the gulf as an engineer with Mercedes Benz in Qatar...he wasn't a taxi driver..and he told me about how the Arabs treat the muslims of the sub-continent as second-grade muslims...
> Imo Pakistanis should not let any other countries religious affiliations affect their own foreign policies.



In my experience, this is true, but mostly for the oil-rich Arabs.
Regular Arabs in Egypt, Syria, etc. are quite friendly to subcontinentals.

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## totach7

Developereo said:


> In my experience, this is true, but mostly for the oil-rich Arabs.
> Regular Arabs in Egypt, Syria, etc. are quite friendly to subcontinentals.



quite?????????
You are dreaming ....... the Arabs don't care for the Palestinians 
other than using it as a political tool so you think they care about 
Pakistan???????????? If Pakistan will be in war the Arabs will
stay aside just words words words ,,,,thats what you will get
you naive .......



editing: I see you are far from your Homeland so what do you care


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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> quite?????????
> You are dreaming ....... the Arabs don't care for the Palestinians
> other than using it as a political tool so you think they care about
> Pakistan???????????? If Pakistan will be in war the Arabs will
> stay aside just words words words ,,,,thats what you will get
> you naive .......
> 
> 
> editing: I see you are far from your Homeland so what do you care



I guess you are NOT the right person to tell us about Arabs.

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## Sinnerman108

totach7 said:


> quite?????????
> You are dreaming ....... the Arabs don't care for the Palestinians
> other than using it as a political tool so you think they care about
> Pakistan???????????? If Pakistan will be in war the Arabs will
> stay aside just words words words ,,,,thats what you will get
> you naive .......
> 
> 
> 
> editing: I see you are far from your Homeland so what do you care



U need to get your facts right first.
You will find it helpful to study arab + Iran help in 1965 war, in 1971 war.

You may also find it helpful to study Pakistan airforce and army contribution to both Arab Israel wars.

In addition, you may be aware of the economic and social assistance that the Arab countries have been providing to Pakistan.

You may choose to ignore all these facts, because you may be too busy crying about Hitler and misleading the world into believing that drama.

Lastly, be careful when you talk about discrimination. unless an african or asian Jew is as equal as a native one.

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## Developereo

totach7 said:


> quite?????????
> You are dreaming ....... the Arabs don't care for the Palestinians
> other than using it as a political tool so you think they care about
> Pakistan???????????? If Pakistan will be in war the Arabs will
> stay aside just words words words ,,,,thats what you will get
> you naive .......
> 
> 
> 
> editing: I see you are far from your Homeland so what do you care



My comments were about person-to-person interactions between individuals on the street.

The oil-rich Arabs are snooty to subcontinentals, but the average Egyptian, Syrian, etc. is not racist and is very friendly.

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## hamza the lion

totach7 said:


> you have much problems at your home and around it
> mind you...... you think Arabs care about you? I don't think so



ISRAEL IS OUR ENEMY ALL PROBLEMS AROUND PAKISTAN ISREAL AND AMRICA AND WEST CREATE 
NO FRIEND SHIP WITH KHAFERS


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## Parashuram1

> You "admitted" that your parents were not Swiss citizens.
> What you didn't know was that, unlike other countries, Switzerland does NOT grant citizenship just because you are born there.
> 
> Your ignorance of Swiss history, laws and customs gave you away a loooong time ago.
> 
> You really have to try harder next time, my Indian IT coder pretending to be Swiss friend.



Of course my parents are not racially Swiss. I told you that racially I am of Persian and Indian descent. Heard of African Americans being proud Americans?

Since when did you ask me about Swiss laws, history etc? I can understand your apparent obsession with seeing Indians everywhere, but if you want to learn about Swiss history, I recommend you Amazon.com for purchasing books on us.

Now keep yapping. Good luck. 

If it makes you sleep well, then "I am an Indian conspiring against Pakistan hiding behind the Swiss flag" Happy? Get some sleep.

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## Developereo

Parashuram1 said:


> Since when did you ask me about Swiss laws, history etc?



The subject came up in a couple threads and your response to me (and others) betrayed a complete lack of knowledge of Swiss history and some outright false statements.



Parashuram1 said:


> If it makes you sleep well, then "I am an Indian conspiring against Pakistan hiding behind the Swiss flag" Happy? Get some sleep.



I will sleep well regardless, but getting the truth out might liberate you.

Confession is good for the soul

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## Parashuram1

Developereo said:


> The subject came up in a couple threads and your response to me (and others) betrayed a complete lack of knowledge of Swiss history and some outright false statements.
> 
> 
> 
> I will sleep well regardless, but getting the truth out might liberate you.
> 
> Confession is good for the soul


My needlessly suspecting friend,

Race dosn't essentially determine loyalty to that particular land, especially when one hasn't stayed there even once in his or her lifetime. Confession is good for my soul that I already have while obsession in your case isn't good for your soul.. Please come and visit my profile once if you doubt my identity. I have clearly mentioned that racially I have a part Indian background but I was never raised in India and am not at all familiar with that country. You might also want to know that I am part Persian by race to but neither I speak Farsi nor Hindi and know only very very basic levels of it. 

I choose not to answer your questions because you are no one to question my identity. Also it is a long time since school for me to remember every other thing about history of my place of you want to be specific. 

I have loyally served the constitution of Swiss Federation by completing my conscription in the Schweizer Armee and if you want to know about the conscription terms and requirements, I can answer you that very well.


----------



## Developereo

Parashuram1 said:


> My needlessly suspecting friend,
> 
> Race dosn't essentially determine loyalty to that particular land, especially when one hasn't stayed there even once in his or her lifetime. Confession is good for my soul that I already have while obsession in your case isn't good for your soul.. Please come and visit my profile once if you doubt my identity. I have clearly mentioned that racially I have a part Indian background but I was never raised in India and am not at all familiar with that country. You might also want to know that I am part Persian by race to but neither I speak Farsi nor Hindi and know only very very basic levels of it.
> 
> I choose not to answer your questions because you are no one to question my identity. Also it is a long time since school for me to remember every other thing about history of my place of you want to be specific.



I am not interested in your race or religion, only your nationality.



Parashuram1 said:


> I have loyally served the constitution of Swiss Federation by completing my conscription in the Schweizer Armee and if you want to know about the conscription terms and requirements, I can answer you that very well.



The fact that you got basic Swiss history wrong and can't answer a couple of trivially simple questions is all the answer I need. Perhaps you are stalling until you can google the answer...


----------



## Parashuram1

Developereo said:


> I am not interested in your race or religion, only your nationality.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you got basic Swiss history wrong and can't answer a couple of trivially simple questions is all the answer I need. Perhaps you are stalling until you can google the answer...


My nationality is that of Swiss. I don't need to Google any answer. Wait as long as you want because I am not answering any of your James Bond questions. You want to call me an Indian "coder", keep calling me. I don't mind it because partially I am one. 

End of our discussion.


----------



## Developereo

Parashuram1 said:


> My nationality is that of Swiss.



No real Swiss who has lived their life in Switzerland would make the kind of silly factual mistakes you made.



Parashuram1 said:


> I don't need to Google any answer. Wait as long as you want because I am not answering any of your James Bond questions. You want to call me an Indian "coder", keep calling me. I don't mind it because partially I am one.



That's better. First you claimed to be a Swiss national working for the UN -- implying some sort of diplomatic post.

Then you reluctantly admitted your Indian links. Now you are slowly admitting you are a IT coder. At least we got you to admit part of your subterfuge. The rest is proved by the fact that you can't even answer simple questions about Geneva.

I have exposed your subterfuge, which was my intention.


----------



## Parashuram1

What is wrong with you? Are you illiterate in English? I work in the United Nations, am part Indian-part Persian, 34 and a Swiss national. Is this so much for you to understand?

I cannot make out what is worse: your obsession with Indians or ignorance of English. How did they get you Australian nationality with that kind of language?


----------



## asq

totach7 said:


> quite?????????
> You are dreaming ....... the Arabs don't care for the Palestinians
> other than using it as a political tool so you think they care about
> Pakistan???????????? If Pakistan will be in war the Arabs will
> stay aside just words words words ,,,,thats what you will get
> you naive .......
> 
> 
> 
> editing: I see you are far from your Homeland so what do you care



U.R. wrong Dude.

Arab leaders are threatend for thier life's by the enemies of Muslims, told that they will be bombed to stone age, they get scared to death by these threats and go against the will of their people.

This inaction on the part of Arab Leaders gives rise to terrorism as the common man see their leades totaly ignoring their wishes and working for the wishes of enemies of their countires.

Those who threatend these leader little they understand that with vinigar u will not get as many bees as u will with Honey. think about that Dude.

and that is the truth. dude.

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## asq

Parashuram1 said:


> What is wrong with you? Are you illiterate in English? I work in the United Nations, am part Indian-part Persian, 34 and a Swiss national. Is this so much for you to understand?
> 
> I cannot make out what is worse: your obsession with Indians or ignorance of English. How did they get you Australian nationality with that kind of language?



U should be fired from U.N. as u r impolite and judgemental.

U.N. is very considerate, civilized and caring entity.

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## Developereo

asq said:


> U should be fired from U.N. as u r impolite and judgemental.
> 
> U.N. is very considerate, civilized and caring entity.



Let's leave the discussion. He has admitted his pro-India, anti-Muslim bias.

That's all I wanted to establish.

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## totach7

salman108 said:


> U need to get your facts right first.
> You will find it helpful to study arab + Iran help in 1965 war, in 1971 war.
> 
> You may also find it helpful to study Pakistan airforce and army contribution to both Arab Israel wars.
> 
> In addition, you may be aware of the economic and social assistance that the Arab countries have been providing to Pakistan.
> 
> You may choose to ignore all these facts, because you may be too busy crying about Hitler and misleading the world into believing that drama.
> 
> Lastly, be careful when you talk about discrimination. unless an african or asian Jew is as equal as a native one.





so ...... what I know from history is that General at the time
1970 Zia Ul Haq led with king Hussien of Jordan a massacre
of 20.000 Palestinians in what known as black September

go to the books, study ,face reality and preach for peace in your land
and elsewhere 

more:
http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/


----------



## totach7

Developereo said:


> No real Swiss who has lived their life in Switzerland would make the kind of silly factual mistakes you made.
> 
> 
> 
> That's better. First you claimed to be a Swiss national working for the UN -- implying some sort of diplomatic post.
> 
> Then you reluctantly admitted your Indian links. Now you are slowly admitting you are a IT coder. At least we got you to admit part of your subterfuge. The rest is proved by the fact that you can't even answer simple questions about Geneva.
> 
> I have exposed your subterfuge, which was my intention.



I know ......its a Zionist undercover
my God 
some people here are paranoid 
be open minded 
speak peace


----------



## Traveller

Developereo said:


> Let's leave the discussion. He has admitted his pro-India, anti-Muslim bias.
> 
> That's all I wanted to establish.



Hey being pro India doesn't mean Anti Muslim..why do you people keep getting selective amnesia, that India has the second largest Muslim population in the World.

Means it is a Pakistani forum so you guys can say any thing to any one( Esp Indian/Israeli/American/Russian), but can't digest the simplest criticism?


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

Traveller said:


> Hey being pro India doesn't mean Anti Muslim..why do you people keep getting selective amnesia, that India has the second largest Muslim population in the World.
> 
> Means it is a Pakistani forum so you guys can say any thing to any one( Esp Indian/Israeli/American/Russian), but can't digest the simplest criticism?



It is the most open forum as compare to Indian Afghan and Israeli forms.

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## pak-yes

totach7 said:


> so ...... what I know from history is that General at the time
> 1970 Zia Ul Haq led with king Hussien of Jordan a massacre
> of 20.000 Palestinians in what known as black September
> 
> go to the books, study ,face reality and preach for peace in your land
> and elsewhere
> 
> more:
> IDF ARMOR ??? ??????-??"?



Hey don't you have something better to say from the start of the thread you have telling your same old stupid,lied story.

Come on Man show some Propaganda against Pakistan.


----------



## totach7

pak-yes said:


> Hey don't you have something better to say from the start of the thread you have telling your same old stupid,lied story.
> 
> Come on Man show some Propaganda against Pakistan.



"stupid lied story????????? ask some more educated members here
they will tell you more
even you can not re write history
its not nice to know that Arabs don't care for you
isn't it?


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## pak-yes

> "stupid lied story????????? ask some more educated members here
> they will tell you more



Ya stupid lied story i am sick of hearing it you keep repeating it again and again and again don't you have some new Propaganda to post.



> its not nice to know that Arabs don't care for you
> isn't it?



ya Arabs don't Care so what have you done with us.You are no different than Arabs.

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## totach7

StealthQL-707PK said:


> *This thread is full of........., dude stop wasting your times.......! *



Thats why you are here?

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## totach7

The role of General Zia-ul-Haq in the events of Black September (1970), involving killing of 25000 Palestinians in Jordan

During Black September the head of Pakistani training commission took command of the 2nd Division and helped kill and cleanse the Palestinians (est. 25,000 dead) from Jordan.

It was none other that Zia ul Haq.

So much for the Palestinian cause.

He was awarded Jordan's highest honour for the services rendered.

Zia was stationed in Jordan from 1967 to 1970 as a Brigadier, helping in the training of Jordanian soldiers, as well as leading the training mission into battle during the Black September operations as commander of Jordanian 2nd Division, a strategy that proved crucial to King Hussein's remaining in power.



Zia remained posted in Jordan from 1967 till 1970, where he was involved in training and leading Jordon's military. He is still highly respected in Jordan for his role in the Black September operations in support of King Hussein, where he commanded Jordan's 2nd division. Zia's troops were heavily involved in street-to-street urban fighting and are credited with killing scores of Palestinians. Black September was a great example of how the Arab nations despise the Palestinians, and their support of them only goes as far as to encourage and help the Palestinians to kill Jews.

Prophet of Doom - Good Muslims - General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq - Pakistan Dictator - 1977-1988



Black September
September 1970 is known as the Black September in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events." It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the autonomy of Palestinian organizations and restore his monarchy's rule over the country. The violence resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian. Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the PLO and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon.

.

Jordanian army attacks
On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh,Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division. In addition, the Iraqi army in Jordan after 1967 war serving as a reserve forces supported the Jordanian army.

Arafat later claim that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians.

The armored troops were inefficient in narrow city streets and thus the Jordanian army conducted house to house sweeps for Palestinian fighters and got immersed in heavy urban warfare with the inexperienced and undisciplined Palestinian fighters.
Amman experienced the heaviest fighting in the Black September uprising. The American backed Jordanian army shelled the PLO headquarters in Amman and battled with Palestinian guerillas in the narrow streets of the capital. Syrian tanks rolled across the Yarmouk River into northern Jordan and began shelling Amman and other northern urban areas. Outdated missiles fired by the PLO struck Amman for more than a week. Jordanian infantry pushed the Palestinian Fedayeen out of Amman after weeks of bitter fighting.

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## pak-yes

you dumb Israeli don't you know that this same Zia-ul-Haq is responsible for the introduction of Drugs,Assault Rifles and killing of scores of Muslims in Pakistan.

And Also he is responsible for the creation of terrorists.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pak-yes said:


> you dumb Israeli don't you know that this same Zia-ul-Haq is responsible for the introduction of Drugs,Assault Rifles and killing of scores of Muslims in Pakistan.
> 
> And Also he is responsible for the creation of terrorists.



common yaar, he is a guest on this forum. If we can have a flood of indians on this forum, no reason we cant treat this man with respect.


I usually don't like to comment about active/retired services personnel on here, but I agree with what you say about Gen. Zia. A lot of his legacy lingers on in Pakistan; like a ghost.... --- much of it not good for the country.

I'd also blame geography


----------



## pak-yes

> common yaar, he is a guest on this forum. If we can have a flood of indians on this forum, no reason we cant treat this man with respect.



Well Sir,

There is a difference between Indians and these Israeli's.Indians no matter how bad can not be worse than Israeli Zionists.

1 Israel = 10,000 Indians


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## Abu Zolfiqar

pak-yes said:


> Well Sir,
> 
> There is a difference between Indians and these Israeli's.Indians no matter how bad can not be worse than Israeli Zionists.
> 
> 1 Israel = 10,000 Indians



what methods did you use to calculate this number 

by the way, the interesting thing I read is that Orthodox Judaism strictly forbids concepts/movement like zionism. It goes against the "Talmud"


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## Kinshuk

Develeopro,

Can't you ask MoDs and trace his IP to know if he is from Switzerland or not? I don't know if it is possible or not, I am a finance guy. As you wasted a lot of time on a stupid issue.


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## Desert Fox

pak-yes said:


> *you dumb Israeli* don't you know that this same Zia-ul-Haq is responsible for the introduction of Drugs,Assault Rifles and killing of scores of Muslims in Pakistan.
> 
> And Also he is responsible for the creation of terrorists.



Hey, we have to respect others, watch your language and no name calling!

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## Developereo

totach7 said:


> I know ......its a Zionist undercover
> my God
> some people here are paranoid
> be open minded
> speak peace



Not everything is about Zionism.



Traveller said:


> Hey being pro India doesn't mean Anti Muslim..why do you people keep getting selective amnesia, that India has the second largest Muslim population in the World.
> 
> Means it is a Pakistani forum so you guys can say any thing to any one( Esp Indian/Israeli/American/Russian), but can't digest the simplest criticism?



He is pro-India and anti-Muslim. I didn't say they were related; simply that they are both true in this case. I have no problem with the first one, but I will challenge anyone with ignorant anti-Muslim rants.

Please read this thread and you will see his constant anti-Muslim rants and attempt to defend an indefensible (and most likely unconstitutional) law just because it targets Muslims.

I have no problem with people who criticize honestly. Solomon2 and totach here are upfront about their background. We may disagree, but at least they are not hiding their bias.



Kinshuk said:


> Develeopro,
> 
> Can't you ask MoDs and trace his IP to know if he is from Switzerland or not? I don't know if it is possible or not, I am a finance guy. As you wasted a lot of time on a stupid issue.



I have no doubt he is posting from Switzerland. Lots of people (Indians and Pakistanis) work abroad.

I was establishing his bias because he claimed to be defending the Swiss minaret law as a Swiss national, yet made a number of vague/false statements about Swiss history, and failed to answer a trivial question that would have established his Swiss credentials.

As you know, there have been many instances of people hiding behind false flags just to troll.

In any case, since he has admitted his bias, the matter is resolved for me and, hopefully, him.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I think it's important to show respect to our guests.

Grill them, throw questions at them, critisize (meaningfully).....but name-calling shouldnt be allowed i dont think. It downgrades us.

He's giving his (Israeli) perspective. He is pro-Peace and even said he hopes to visit Pakistan and enjoy it. So why should some people still get angry when his intentions seem good for the most part --and some people bringing religion into it why? 

This is a professional forum. Sometimes tensions and emotions run high. But like i said --- we allow indians to post freely on here. It's interesting to get israeli perspective as well -- especially one that seems pragmatic and forward-looking


lets be patient and courteous to our guests......this isnt a homogeneous haven for jingoists --- like bharat-ratshak

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## FreekiN

totach7 said:


> The role of General Zia-ul-Haq in the events of Black September (1970), involving killing of 25000 Palestinians in Jordan



Please do not post websites like those here. "Prophet of Doom" is a website proven wrong many many times. So many times that even atheists frown upon it. Please use another source. 

We do not want to be apart of their hidden racism and religious discrimination. 

Thanks.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Traveller said:


> India has the second largest Muslim population in the World.
> 
> Means it is a Pakistani forum so you guys can say any thing to any one( Esp Indian/Israeli/American/Russian), but can't digest the simplest criticism?



Funny fiest was indonesia and 2nd was Pakistan
Try *** and isreali fprum just say israel providef weapons for taliban in 70 trust me ur u will get banned.

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## Kinshuk

Moral of the thread. 

Pakistan itself is not trying to have friendly relations with Israel then what is the point in stretching our brains over it. 

Yesterday PAF dropped pamphlets, accusing Israel for supporting terrorism in Pakistan, to gain support of your people. This is already exposed in international Media. Pakistan wouldn't wanna mess with Israel. Seriously. Had it been India, I would have said the same thing.

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## Traveller

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Funny* fiest* was indonesia and *2nd was* Pakistan
> Try *** and isreali *fprum* just say israel *providef* weapons for taliban in 70 trust me* ur u will get banned*.




Hey, what's wrong with you, seeing double or just started learning English?

* u will get banned*

Well if that's your appetite, why have this forum?
Grow up man


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## Sinnerman108

totach7 said:


> so ...... what I know from history is that General at the time
> 1970 Zia Ul Haq led with king Hussien of Jordan a massacre
> of 20.000 Palestinians in what known as black September
> 
> go to the books, study ,face reality and preach for peace in your land
> and elsewhere
> 
> more:
> IDF ARMOR ??? ??????-??"?



this is funny !


Gen Zia was not a General in 1970, he was a Brigadier !

The mission was ordered by King Hussain, not by Brigadier Zia ul Haq.

If you think, that mission was not justified, 
then by the same token, we can also declare the operation against Taliban is not justified ?
and we can also prove that Afghan refugees are justified to over throw the Government of Pakistan ?

You are talking about a man, who invented and twice used the strategy of directly threatening Israel ?

You are talking about a man, who along with King Faisal ( KSA) was sworn supporter of exterminating Israel policy ?



> On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.[12][13] In addition, the Iraqi army that remained in Jordan after the 1967 war serving as a reserve forces supported the Jordanian army.[14]
> 
> Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000



and another account


> Arab nations colloquially referred to Black September after King Hussein's 1970 crackdown on the PLO because of the brutality of the three-week war, which put an end to the PLO's rogue state-within-a-state in Jordan as well as its guerilla attacks on Israeli-occupied Arab territory in the West Bank. Hussein, who was the target of numerous assassination attempts by the PLO and other Palestinian factions, and whose authority had been in doubt, first signed a cease-fire agreement with the PLO in late September, 1970, then expelled Yasser Arafat and the PLO in early 1971. The PLO migrated to Lebanon, weapons and destabilizing designs in tow.



Why do you guys try to portray history in wrong perspective ?


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## Developereo

An old Pakistani movie... Zarqa.
(plays better in a new window = red arrow on youtube)





And a couple of good songs from it:


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## mjnaushad

Traveller said:


> Hey, what's wrong with you, seeing double or just started learning English?
> 
> * u will get banned*
> 
> Well if that's your appetite, why have this forum?
> Grow up man


now you are pointing out typo mistake and english mistakes. Its the *most cheap *you can go or there is more downgraded version of you which we have to see.

but anyway i am glad you are banned.


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## ARSENAL6

Solomon2 said:


> No, you posted a video you _claimed_ was proof and said go view it. That's not the same. Put your argument and proofs down in black on white. After all, Gabriel told Mohammed to read, not watch TV.



Likewise God told Moses not to kill and not to support such atrocisties in the Tora but that didn't stop you guys from doing so ie Israel
further more How STUPID would someone have to be to actually consider believing such drivel? I blame like the govt. schools/indoctrination and socialization centers. Teachers should be beaten for turning out such a product. Such poor performance in any legitimate work environment would get you fired and deservedly so.

Please leave the "go read" statement to some one who has read and stuidied. Quit your uneducated rants to yourself

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## Abu Zolfiqar

it appears that US VP Biden has issued strongly worded condemnation of plans to build another 120 apartments in East Jerusalem.

what's going on?


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## Faadi

Pakistan Missile technology is not capable to hit Israel yet but I hope that Inshallah in the future it will and as far as military capability is concerned PA is professionally much more better than Israeli Army and that's why they consider Pakistan much more dangerous than Arabs themselves.

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## Canaan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it appears that US VP Biden has issued strongly worded condemnation of plans to build another 120 apartments in East Jerusalem.
> 
> what's going on?



the thing is that Israel embarrassed Joe Biden by announcing a plan of building 1600 residential units in Palestinian Jerusalem as soon as he arrived there. Meaning they tried to sabotage his mission. Now they come out and say it was a mistake with "timing". Of course the US was furious by this move, as it goes against what they are trying to do.
I hope that the US finally realizes that having Israel as an ally, is ruining their image and economy. They would be better off having 1.6 billion Muslims as close friends, the way it used to be before the Zionists took over the American institutions and media.


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## totach7

Faadi said:


> Pakistan Missile technology is not capable to hit Israel yet but I hope that Inshallah in the future it will and as far as military capability is concerned PA is professionally much more better than Israeli Army and that's why they consider Pakistan much more dangerous than Arabs themselves.



By using the word Inshallah related to destroy Israel you go against God and the Islam 
you maybe young and stupid . have you seen war ? 
Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan and I wish we will have peace
soon INSHALLAH

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## totach7

Canaan said:


> the thing is that Israel embarrassed Joe Biden by announcing a plan of building 1600 residential units in Palestinian Jerusalem as soon as he arrived there. Meaning they tried to sabotage his mission. Now they come out and say it was a mistake with "timing". Of course the US was furious by this move, as it goes against what they are trying to do.
> I hope that the US finally realizes that having Israel as an ally, is ruining their image and economy. They would be better off having 1.6 billion Muslims as close friends, the way it used to be before the Zionists took over the American institutions and media.



You want the Americans to sale their soul ? 
You include Binladden in the 1.6 billion?
no one will forget 9.11
got that?


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## totach7

Developereo said:


> An old Pakistani movie... Zarqa.
> (plays better in a new window = red arrow on youtube)
> YouTube - 1)Zarqa..A super hit beautiful Pak classical movie Part-1/16
> 
> And a couple of good songs from it:
> YouTube - NASEEM BEGUM - MEIN PHOOL BACHNEY AYE - ZARQA
> YouTube - MEHDI HASAN - RAQS ZANJEER PEHAN - ZARQA





Poor poor poor.......
score: zero 0


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## Abu Zolfiqar

totach7 said:


> By using the word Inshallah related to destroy Israel you go against God and the Islam
> you maybe young and stupid . have you seen war ?
> Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan and I wish we will have peace
> soon INSHALLAH



war is least preferred option, not a game.

and yes, peace is important. Our countries are far enough from eachother, neither poses any immediate threat to one another.

Unfortunately, our enemies are much much closer to home.

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## bc040400065

totach7 said:


> By using the word Inshallah related to destroy Israel you go against God and the Islam
> you maybe young and stupid . have you seen war ?
> Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan and I wish we will have peace
> soon INSHALLAH



Well i don't think so that we need to fight israel but the thing is that we get someimes so emotional. Look what the arabs are doing,,,, they signed peace agreements with israel and have relations with israel. latest example is Qatar, u may see jordan, egypt and turkey as well. As far as i know its impossible that these arabs are developing all this multi billion dollars arms against israel... no they have money so its their luxury spending and that too not for fighting for lebonan or palestine ,,, its all power projection for neigbours like iran.... 
But for my israeli friend.... please tell me does 911 justify the killings of inocent iraqi, afghani and now pakistanis???? If 3000 americans died does this mean that now 3 million muslims should be slatered???
One unjustice does not justify another unjustice.... 
and for friendship with israel well i think everyone should look for its country's best interest and thats how it goes now a days. thanks.

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## Faadi

Have you seen war? Israel has captured the land of Palestine and doing massacre of Palestinian Muslims and Children. Israel has come into being with force and they don't allow Muslims to follow their religion over there. You also seem stupid and realize that one day Israel will have to pay for all the atrocities, it is doing against Palestinians. BE PREPARED FOR THAT DAY.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

There is no need for further intifada, maybe i'm naiive

it seems that diplomacy will maybe take due course. israel is under a lot of pressure nowdays -- even with AIPAC, their PR aint doing so well nowdays; after Dubai botched Mossad operation, not to mention the fact that Netanyahu administration has managed to HUMILIATE that of Mr. President Obama's


I've made it clear earlier that I personally hold no grudge against all israelis or this state called 'israel' .... suffice to say that their actions ever since the 2nd intifada of 2000 have been regrettable and unacceptable. Rogue at times.


but as Pakistanis, we also need to get our priorities straight. We can't change **** in that region, let's worry about ourselves. Only ourselves. Only way we can help our brothers/sisters in Falasteen is to send medics, engineers, teachers etc. as volunteers. Start a blog, work for an NGO or non-profit. Do whatever; but it's easier to talk than to take action (maybe I am also a hypocrite by saying so).

Pakistan first. Everything else, is secondary. At least that's how I see it.


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## Hammy007

pakistan will always prefer to bring peace in the region even it has to fight against israel, for all the innocent lives israel has caused just because they dont want the the muslims to live in peace, peace will never touch hearts of the israelis..

israel was formed at the cost of so many innocent lives, even today this country is causing so many innocent people, how can the soil which has turned red because of silly ambitions of israelis can forgive them???


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## TOPGUN

This thread needs to be closed no point in it at all......


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## lhuang

Any Israelis on this forum?


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## SinoIndusFriendship

lhuang said:


> Any Israelis on this forum?



Not many registered members (many lurkers though).

But there are quite a handful of "Chinese" members who _share_ the similar Indian logic.


----------



## totach7

Faadi said:


> Have you seen war? Israel has captured the land of Palestine and doing massacre of Palestinian Muslims and Children. Israel has come into being with force and they don't allow Muslims to follow their religion over there. You also seem stupid and realize that one day Israel will have to pay for all the atrocities, it is doing against Palestinians. BE PREPARED FOR THAT DAY.



Do you know whats Faadi means in Arabic? it means "nothing"
zero thats what you are if you say "massacre'' etc etc....
its war with 2 sides, the Arab leaders are making their own people loose
war and peace and any ways mind your own atrocities you have lots of it

read some more here:
http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/2009/01/3.html


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## Thunder Omni Role

We know which parasite created this war between Palestinians and split their remaining territories in half, it is out of sheer Israeli influence and infiltration nothing to do with Arab leaders killing their own people. Or it is blamed on Iran, pure nonsense and down with the zionist maggot colony of Israel.


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## Canaan

totach7 said:


> Do you know whats Faadi means in Arabic? it means "nothing"
> zero thats what you are if you say "massacre'' etc etc....
> its war with 2 sides, the Arab leaders are making their own people loose
> war and peace and any ways mind your own atrocities you have lots of it
> 
> read some more here:
> IDF ARMOR ??? ??????-??"?: IDF Armor in the War of Independence 1948



come on totach
Arab leaders are useless, nothing new under the sun. But you Israelis are playing a dangerous game. We all know what the outcome will be. A Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, that's 22% of what used to be Palestine before 1948, the Palestinians can't give anymore. Why do the Israeli leadership insist on continuing the suffering and conflict, when they, being the occupiers and strongest part, could evacuate the land they occupied, sign a peace deal, leave the Palestinians and let them live for once and take the first breath in 62 years? instead your leadership turned what used to be a conflict about land, into a war between religions? now you are not only alienating yourself in the Arab world but in the entire Muslim world with 1.6 billion Muslims. Isn't it ironic that the so called fundamentalist Hamas, are finding themselves fighting much more dangerous people in Gaza who make Hamas look dovish ? emerging cells of Ultra-radicals is the result of the hideous and appalling situation in Gaza due to the siege imposed by Israel. Why does Israel insist on creating enemies for itself? The siege is weakening Hamas but creating a much more violent and destructive alternative. When will you wake up?

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## MIG_ACE

Israel reopening of historic synagogue angers Palestinians

JERUSALEM: Israel on Monday reopened a landmark synagogue in Jerusalem's walled Old City, saying it should symbolise religious tolerance, 62 years after the building was destroyed in fighting with Jordan. 

But the rededication came against a backdrop of heightened political and religious tensions in the holy city, with thousands of police deployed after clashes with Palestinian demonstrators. 

Palestinian rivals the secular Fatah and Islamist Hamas were united in their condemnation of the move. 

Exiled Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal slammed it as "a falsification of history," and warned it could cause the Middle East to "explode." 

Hamas also declared Tuesday a "day of rage and alarm" and called on Arabs and Muslims to "come to the aid of Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa." 

Hatem Abdel Qader, who oversees Jerusalem affairs for Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas's Fatah, said: "This is not just a synagogue. 

"This synagogue will be a prelude to violence, extremism and religious fanaticism, and that will not be limited to extremist Jews but includes members of the Israeli government." 

But in a video message because he was unable to attend personally, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the synagogue brought a message of coexistence. 

"We permit believers of other faiths to conserve their places of worship. We proudly protect our heritage, while at the same time allowing others freedom of religion," he said. 

The ceremony was attended by parliament speaker Reuven Rivlin, ministers and the chief rabbis of Israel. 

Yona Metzger, the Ashkenazi chief rabbi, placed at the entrance of the synagogue a mezuza  the parchment scroll inscribed with a verse from the Torah and placed in a case which Jewish families hang on door frames. 

Monday's ceremony came as Israel barred men under the age of 50 and non-Muslims from entering the Al-Aqsa mosque compound for a fourth day running after clashes between police and Palestinians in and around the site. 

Meshaal, the leader of Hamas which rules the Gaza Strip, denounced the ceremony. 

"We warn against this action by the Zionist enemy to rebuild and dedicate the Hurva synagogue. It signifies the destruction of the Al-Aqsa mosque and the building of the temple," he said in Syria. 

Al-Aqsa and the rebuilt Hurva synagogue are around 700 metres (yards) apart in the Old City. 

The Al-Aqsa compound is Islam's third holiest site after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia. It is also Judaism's holiest site because it was the location of the Second Temple, destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. 

In his statement at a Damascus meeting of leaders of Palestinian groups, Meshaal called the ceremony "a falsification of history and Jerusalem's religious and historic monuments. 

"Israel is playing with fire and touching off the first spark to make the region explode," he said. 

He urged Palestinians in Gaza and in the Israeli-occupied West Bank to "launch a campaign to protect Jerusalem and Islamic and Christian holy sites there." 

The synagogue was first built in 1694 and destroyed 21 years later by Ottoman authorities who held power at the time. 

The site lay empty for many years and acquired the name "Hurva," Hebrew for ruin, before being rebuilt in 1864 and becoming a centre for the Jewish community in the Holy Land. 

It was blown to pieces in 1948, after Jordan captured the Old City from the newly established state of Israel, during the battle for control of Jerusalem. 

The synagogue's latest incarnation is the result of a 20-million-dollar (15-million-euro) government-funded restoration project. 

The ceremony was held hot on the heels of a controversial Israeli decision to build 1,600 new Jewish settlements in predominantly Arab east Jerusalem, leading the Palestinians to rule out peace talks until the move is reversed.

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## NWO

Read this: The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict
Made by Jews. Its shows that even Jews see the evil of the Zionist.


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## Gazzi

self delete


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## faisaljaffery

Israil's intelligence agency Mosad along with Indian Raw are operating training centers in Afghanistan and they are sending suicide bombers to Pakistan to destablize our country. India and Israil had joint plans to declare the Pakistan as a failed state. but thanks God that we have a Pakistan Army which fought the war on westren borders and cleared these areas from Indian supported millitants.

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## faisaljaffery

Israil's intelligence agency Mosad along with Indian Raw are operating training centers in Afghanistan and they are sending suicide bombers to Pakistan to destablize our country. India and Israil had joint plans to declare the Pakistan as a failed state. but thanks God that we have a Pakistan Army which fought the war on westren borders and cleared these areas from Indian supported millitants.


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## piyarapakistani

we got nothing to do with zionist jews.
1)jews are friends of each others.
2)after a terrorist jew put fire in holy mosque of aqsa all doors of anything with jews are closed.they were never opened but there was a possibilty to open them.
3)free palestine is the goal of muslims of pakistan because without it our idiealogy hurts.body is pakistan but spirit is islam and spirit is always in holy places of islam.


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## totach7

piyarapakistani said:


> we got nothing to do with zionist jews.
> 1)jews are friends of each others.
> 2)after a terrorist jew put fire in holy mosque of aqsa all doors of anything with jews are closed.they were never opened but there was a possibilty to open them.
> 3)free palestine is the goal of muslims of pakistan because without it our idiealogy hurts.body is pakistan but spirit is islam and spirit is always in holy places of islam.




In other words "hate" "hate" "hate"

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## Super Falcon

it is a true some where there is a hand of israel in pakistani probleum for sure along with indian help


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## mughaljee

totach7 said:


> In other words "hate" "hate" "hate"


In true words, 
It's
"Israel "Israel "Israel


----------



## Shamsher

first and last Pak Military is far superior than israeli Military

watch out israelis we Muslims dont even hesitate to strap bomb with our bodies


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## su-47

Shamsher said:


> first and last Pak Military is far superior than israeli Military
> 
> watch out israelis we Muslims dont even hesitate to strap bomb with our bodies



I dont think any patriot hesitates to offer his life for his country. Its just that many DONT NEED TO strap bombs to themselves. There are much better delivery systems for explosives. And superior militaries dont use suicide bombers.

And please dont give monopoly of suicide bombing to Muslims alone. Other nonmuslim terrorist organisations like Tamil Tigers have also used it. It is a sign of intense desperation to kill.

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## su-47

Shamsher said:


> who is talking to you son
> 
> keep your comments to the topic or go to bharatmilitary or something



This is a forum. everyone is free to comment. No one needs a personal invitation to comment on a post. When you post something here, you are talking to EVERYONE.

My post is within the topic. You commented on how Pakistani military is superior to Israel's and how muslims arent afraid to use suicide bombing. I just pointed out that it isnt muslims alone who are not afraid of suicide bombings, and that suicide bombings are a last ditch attempt. Superior militaries dont even consider the option. 

And please dont tell me where to go. Whether I go to bharatmilitary or not is my personal choice.

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## chinapakistan

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> Not many registered members (many lurkers though).
> 
> But there are quite a handful of "Chinese" members who _share_ the similar Indian logic.



He is a proven fake chinese which has been proven several month before.


----------



## ARCHON

faisaljaffery said:


> Israil's intelligence agency Mosad along with Indian Raw are operating training centers in Afghanistan and they are sending suicide bombers to Pakistan to destablize our country. India and Israil had joint plans to declare the Pakistan as a failed state. but thanks God that we have a Pakistan Army which fought the war on westren borders and cleared these areas from Indian supported millitants.



*Any* photo, proof, *any* name of just 1 single Raw trained terrorist??

Or is it just 1 single guy doing all the havoc in there??


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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> In other words "hate" "hate" "hate"



After Killing our people on daily basis and capturing our land , what else do you deserve ???

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## Kambojaric

If a 2 state solution is made , then and only then should pak think about recognising Israel. We have to accept that Israel is a reality now unfortunatly. However until they dont give atleast the pre-67 lands back to the palestinians there should be no recognition.
Will this happen though, the 2 state solution? Most probably not, Israel has nothing to lose in the current situation so why would it give land back to the Palestinians. Also if any attempt is made in UN to make this happen Daddy america will veto it like it has done in the past!


----------



## Gene

Ababeel said:


> What is the Israeli thinking about Pakistan, just mentioned by Black Blood in another thread "Biggest threat to Pakistan" and people will understand the reality:
> 
> Part 1:
> 
> The words of David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle,9 August 1967, leave nothing to imagination:
> 
> "The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs.
> 
> This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps
> against Pakistan. Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.
> 
> Part 2:
> 
> Israeli air force Tried to Attack Pakistan's nuclear facilities jointly with India , On july 07 1982 when IAF attacked Osiraq Nuclear facility and destroyed it Pakistan's then leader Gen Zia ul Haq issued a special contingency plan on july 10 1982 in order to repel such an attack on Kahota labs .
> 
> Through covert Channels Israel was sent a " Warning " if they Attacked kahuta Pakistan will destroy " Dimona" israel's nuclear facility in Negev Desert !
> 
> On may 13 1998 After indian nuclear tests a joint Indo israel attack on kahuta was highly anticipated.
> Pakistan tested its devices on 28th of the following month while Pakistan Air force remained on a " Red alert " to protect kahuta .
> 
> in the same month Pakistan's ambassador to UNO Mr: Ahmad kamal told CNN that Pakistan has " Intelligence reports" confirming a Joint Indo isreal strike on Kahuta.
> 
> Here are his words:
> 
> " we are involved in this threat and making sure that it does not arise , but if it does then World must know that Pakistan is " Ready" that it will "react and the reaction would be Massive and decisive "
> and it would lead us into a situation which will abode the peace not only in this region but "Beyond"
> 
> Ahmad kamal
> 
> 
> PAF remained on a consistent Silent alert !
> 
> A Pakistani defense analyst " Hassan aksari Rizvi " said that 2 intelligence reports were received 1st a sighting of an " Unidentified F-16" on may 27 ( india does not have F-16's)
> in Pakistan's Airspace which suggested the presence of an Israeli F-16 aircraft in the area!
> 
> 2nd intelligence report suggested " unusual movement of Fighter jets just across to Pakistani border hinting a strike on Kahuta just like on Iraqi facilities "
> 
> So what we have learned so far? " There was an Israeli F-16 in Pakistan's airspace detected on 27th may 1998 a day before Pakistan's nuclear tests."
> 
> 
> But the Mission was Aborted !!!
> why?? good question.
> 
> 1: Pakistan's strong Air force ( All of the PAF F-16's got air borne and flew over sensitive installations) / Air defense / Deployment of Ghauri Missiles on the Same day!
> 
> 2: India was sent a " Message " to abort that mission either it would have a lot to Lose inc its Nuclear facilities too!
> 
> 3: Fear of The Red Dragon " India got a message from Chinese too / a strong one!"
> 
> 4: Indian high Command got scared , they had to abort the mission and they Refused Israeli Pilots ( there were more Vipers on Srinagar airbase , i will talk about it later ) to refuel Indian soil after an attack was made .
> 
> 5: Israel's fear of a Bloody response of the " Muslim world "
> 
> On the same date.
> some Israeli F-16's were detected by a Spy satellite ( china-pak Intel sharing agreement ) Parked on Srinagar airbase in Occupied Kashmir . To India a message was sent " The presence of IAF vipers means an Attack on Pakistan's nuclear facilities , But India must know that we are " Watching" and even Before these Vipers will fly to Attack Us , we will destroy Mumbai & New deli to smoke and ashes "
> 
> As a consequence the Mission was aborted .!!!!!!
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Part 3:
> 
> Israel in Kargil war!!
> 
> read this by an Indian author .
> IntelliBriefs: How Israel helped India win the Kargil War
> 
> Israeli ambassador to India mentioned in His Interview how Israeli Commandos helped Indian forces and how Israel helped India in Fighting the War.!
> 'Israel helped India during Kargil'
> 
> Israel helped India turn around Kargil war?
> 
> 
> In a startling revelation, the Israeli Ambassador in New Delhi, Mark Sofer, has said that his country had assisted India in 'turning around' the situation during the 1999 Kargil war with Pakistan.
> 
> In an interview with a weekly, the envoy disclosed how defence ties between the two countries got a boost after Kargil when Israel came to India's rescue at a critical time, helping turn around the situation on the ground.
> 
> 'I think we proved to the Indian government that you can rely on us, that we have the wherewithal. A friend in need is a friend indeed,' he said.
> 
> He also disclosed that Indo-Israeli defence ties would go beyond mere selling-buying of arms.
> 
> 'We do have a defence relationship with India, which is no secret. What is secret is what the defence relationship is? And with all due respect, the secret part will remain secret,' he said in the interview to Outlook weekly magazine.



Nice bedtime story man...thanks for sharing..

I think it could be even be more spicy,if you would mention USA.U have mentioned china in support of pakistan,but forgot to mention israel's brother USA as their support.

Ohh.. you might thought that USA will support you in the war against Israel..

And one thing "from where u got this story"?,
may be from your 9th standard history book.....right


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## humanfirst

faisaljaffery said:


> Israil's intelligence agency Mosad along with Indian Raw are operating training centers in Afghanistan and they are sending suicide bombers to Pakistan to destablize our country. India and Israil had joint plans to declare the Pakistan as a failed state. but thanks God that we have a Pakistan Army which fought the war on westren borders and cleared these areas from Indian supported millitants.



Many pakistanis have been accusing israel and mossad for supporting the terrorists fighting against pakistan.Just one question,have pakistani army got any evidence even remotely indicating the involvement of israel/mossad?If not then stop accusing israel for problems in your country atleast until you get some tangible proofs to tell the world.

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## totach7

humanfirst said:


> Many pakistanis have been accusing israel and mossad for supporting the terrorists fighting against pakistan.Just one question,have pakistani army got any evidence even remotely indicating the involvement of israel/mossad?If not then stop accusing israel for problems in your country atleast until you get some tangible proofs to tell the world.




Most members here speak rubbish Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan as long as it will live us alone
Pakistan is full of teror and poor political heritage


----------



## U-571

totach7 said:


> Most members here speak rubbish Israel has nothing to do with Pakistan as long as it will live us alone
> Pakistan is full of teror and poor political heritage



the difference is that we are facing terrorists and on the other hand you are the terrorists lol


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## Abu Zolfiqar

poor political heritage? what the hell does that mean?


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## totach7

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> poor political heritage? what the hell does that mean?



Try and make a better Pakistan...... less poverty better education
more freedom for you people and less blood in the streets and mind your own problems before waging war on Israel on
behalf of all the stupid Arabs!!!!






IDF ARMOR ??? ??????-??"?


----------



## U-571

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> poor political heritage? what the hell does that mean?



this poor baby is crying that pakistan is playing poor politics by not accepting israel existance from day one, so poor political heritage..


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## pak-yes

totach7 said:


> Try and make a better Pakistan...... less poverty better education
> more freedom for you people and less blood in the streets and mind your own problems before waging war on Israel on
> behalf of all the stupid Arabs!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF ARMOR ??? ??????-??"?



Infact we are the ones who mind their own business but you people have been waging a war on us.

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## totach7

pak-yes said:


> Infact we are the ones who mind their own business but you people have been waging a war on us.



YES DREAMER ????


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## Abu Zolfiqar

totach7 said:


> Try and make a better Pakistan...... less poverty better education



that comes through proper leadership whereby leaders have long-term thinking and are less focused on day-to-day survivability and self-interests

poverty exists all over the world......at independence, Pakistan was the poorest it had ever been. We had NOTHING. We have come a long way.





> more freedom for you people and less blood in the streets



Freedom is no problem in Pakistan.

If you ask me, there is too much freedom in this country. I can guarantee you that there is MUCH more freedom in Pakistan than there is in israel. 

MUCH more.

And I'm serious when I say it. 



> and mind your own problems before waging war on Israel on behalf of all the stupid Arabs!!!!



apart from sending volunteer pilots in 67 and 73 to help defend predominately Muslim Arabs, when did we wage war on israel?

it was israel that was planning to attack Pakistan's nuclear facilities. Because of Pakistan intelligence agencies (and, admittedly, American intervention) --- your plans were exposed and never carried through.


and you labelling Arabs as ''stupid'' just shows the mentality of some of the israelis......You look down on them as if their lives are cheap, and you are above them.


Please fix your thinking, and learn to co-exist with others. It is israel that is in defiance of international laws, and even the U.S. is becoming vocal against your netanyahu administration (not that it will make any difference)


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Totach the problem is ur mindset and ur actions in the past and present.
Statements by israelis first head of state against Pakistan.
Trying to puk with us by tryin to strike our nuclear assets in 1998?
Supplying advanced weapons to our arch enemy.
Occupying muslim territories and brutality against our Muslim brethern.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

U-571 said:


> this poor baby is crying that pakistan is playing poor politics by not accepting israel existance from day one, so poor political heritage..



we were confronted by this decision and we decided NOT to accept israel (diplomatically) until there is a just and fair solution to the Palestine issue, and occupied lands are returned.


Me personally, I want to have relations with israel so that we can perhaps buy some of their weapons and other technologies. But Pakistan won't do this at the expense of the Palestinians.

We feel a solidarity with them for our own personal reasons, though I will not speak on behalf of all Pakistanis.


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## Wasif A.K.

no love for Israel but no Hate either. Lets just love Pakistan and serve it here are some information from different sources


ISRAEL MILITARY POWER:
Active Military Personnel: 187,000 [ OF 2008]
Active Military Reserve: 408,000 [ OF 2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 8,050 [ OF 2008] 
Total Navy Ships: 18
Aircraft Carriers: 0 [2008]
Destroyers: 0 [2008]
Submarines: 3 [2008]
Frigates: 0 [2008]
Total Aircraft: 1,230 [2003]
Helicopters: 386 [2003]



PAKISTAN MILITARY POWER:
Active Military Personnel: 650,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 528,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 302,000 [2008] 
Total Navy Ships: 33
Aircraft Carriers: 0 [2008]
Destroyers: 0 [2008]
Submarines: 3 [2008]
Frigates: 4 OR ABOVE [2010]
Total Aircraft: 710 [2004]
Helicopters: 198 [2003]


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## Peregrine

Hi
I don't think Pakistani military considers Israel an adversary.


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## mehru

Hammy007 said:


> *pakistan will always prefer to bring peace in the region even it has to fight against israel,* for all the innocent lives israel has caused just because they dont want the the muslims to live in peace, peace will never touch hearts of the israelis..
> 
> israel was formed at the cost of so many innocent lives, even today this country is causing so many innocent people, how can the soil which has turned red because of silly ambitions of israelis can forgive them???



I hope i have not misunderstood you but are you asking to fight Israel? Why? What they have done to us? Are we that much of a strong nation or we have no problems of our own? Our army is engaged in a battle right now. We need to set our priorities right. We need to look after our country first then we can worry about others. 
What we have gained for souring or you may say for having no relations with Israel? I don't think we have helped Palestinian cause like this. This may seems harsh to you but my heart beats for my country only not for every other Muslim country.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

mehru said:


> I hope i have not misunderstood you but are you asking to fight Israel? *Why? What they have done to us? *Are we that much of a strong nation or we have no problems of our own? Our army is engaged in a battle right now. We need to set our priorities right. We need to look after our country first then we can worry about others.
> What we have gained for souring or you may say for having no relations with Israel? I don't think we have helped Palestinian cause like this. This may seems harsh to you but my heart beats for my country only not for every other Muslim country.



Nothin, they just tried to bomb our nuclear assets in 1998,pressurised USA for sanctions and gave india advanced weapons to fight us and just oppose us in every possiable manner they can...thts just it nothing harmfu done or intended by is...l i guess........also mehru be is...l guest and go live in gaza..its such an awesome place.heck it rains there everyday.(bombs) and stuff and children just die.......beautiful place.u should settle in tht isreali occupied heaven.just be careful some nut job israeli doesnt shoot u and ur family in some mosque and stuff.
Take care.


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## Waffen SS

Why not we have a thread for:

"PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES vs. MARTIAN ALIEN FORCES"


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## James007

Waffen SS said:


> Why not we have a thread for:
> 
> "PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES vs. MARTIAN ALIEN FORCES"



aliens are more deadly as they are more advanced


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## totach7

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Nothin, they just tried to bomb our nuclear assets in 1998,pressurised USA for sanctions and gave india advanced weapons to fight us and just oppose us in every possiable manner they can...thts just it nothing harmfu done or intended by is...l i guess........also mehru be is...l guest and go live in gaza..its such an awesome place.heck it rains there everyday.(bombs) and stuff and children just die.......beautiful place.u should settle in tht isreali occupied heaven.just be careful some nut job israeli doesnt shoot u and ur family in some mosque and stuff.
> Take care.



PURE ORIENTAL IMAGINATION


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## humanfirst

Guys what's pakistan's stand on israeli-palestine conflict?Will pakistan accept israel if israel agreed for an independant palestine nation?


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## totach7

Waffen SS said:


> Why not we have a thread for:
> 
> "PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES vs. MARTIAN ALIEN FORCES"



WITH THE NAME YOU CHOSE TO YOURSELF YOU SHOULD
BE BAN


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## totach7

humanfirst said:


> Guys what's pakistan's stand on israeli-palestine conflict?Will pakistan accept israel if israel agreed for an independant palestine nation?



Israel agreed for 2 state solution but some people here are so full of hate that facts does not count

Pakistan should sign peace with Israel and both countries will
benefit ....Israel has much to give in many fields 
Pakistan is a great nation ... but it should give up blind foreign policy


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## mughaljee

Black Blood said:


> *After Killing our people on daily basis and capturing our land , what else do you deserve *???



^
Cause of *"hate"*


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## T-Rex

totach7 said:


> WITH THE NAME YOU CHOSE TO YOURSELF YOU SHOULD
> BE BAN



And you should be banned for the icon(tank) you have chosen for yourself, it is not peaceful!


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## T-Rex

totach7 said:


> Israel agreed for 2 state solution but some people here are so full of hate that facts does not count
> 
> Pakistan should sign peace with Israel and both countries will
> benefit ....Israel has much to give in many fields
> Pakistan is a great nation ... but it should give up blind foreign policy


\

And Israel should give up its "steal the land of the neighbour and justify" foreign policy.

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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> WITH THE NAME YOU CHOSE TO YOURSELF YOU SHOULD
> BE BAN



Everyone has Freedom of speech on this forum , if we dont apply this law you should be banned from a Pakistani forum for just being an Israeli.

But Managment is not baised and emotional , there are alot of Indians with names that shouldn't be on a Pakistani forum but they are allowed too--- its al about freedom.

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## totach7

T-Rex said:


> And you should be banned for the icon(tank) you have chosen for yourself, it is not peaceful!



It is very peaceful................it what keep us alive from our "friendly"
next door people


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## Abu Zolfiqar

totach, who is attacking who???


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## smartsyco

excuse me what did you just say ..... friendship with israil .... we would better decide suicide.....

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## DESERT FIGHTER

totach7 said:


> PURE ORIENTAL IMAGINATION



Really?didnt ur first head os state talk about how dangerous Pakistan was?
Didnt u send ur F-16 to india in 1998 for strike on our nuke assets like u did with iraq?
Didnt u provide india with advanced tech in case of war with Pakistan on urgent basis?
Dont u oppose Pakistan in every manner u can? 
U want peace ? Pervaiz Musharaf our ex-president did shake the hand of israeli president didnt he?Wat was the response?u should have decieded then.....even now we have no issues with israel except 2=
Occupation and illegal settlements.
Weapons to india.
You just leave giving weapons to india and friendship between israel and Pakistan would be pretty realistic,dont u think?

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## Junaid375

Why we cant have relations with israel : 

1. Gentlemen! Our soul is not for sale' - Liaquat Ali khan said it when US promised all possible military and economic assistance in case Pakistan recognized Israel

2. "Muslims are nothing except brothers"
"The believers are nothing else than brothers. So make reconciliation between your brothers, and fear Allah, that you may receive mercy." [Al-Hujjurat, 49:10]

3. They are killing our brothers and the lowest level of Iman is to condemn them, we have done more than that by boycotting them and allowing our PAF fighters to fight against them.

4. Its not an ARAB-ISRAEL issue..dont be ingnorant of values islam teach us, muslim living in Sudan or Australia is our brother as well.
its muslim they are killing , doesnt matter what nationality what race what colour ....

Now comparing Israel's military strength and Pakistan's armed forces,
I dont think pakistan is stronger than israel..technologically etc

But dont forget :

1. We are muslims and this will not be the first time we will defeat a larger/stronger army (if a war happens b/w israel and pakistan)

2. Its always "Man behind the GUN", proved by PAF over and over again in Middle-East (1967 and 1973) when we gunned down IAF aricrafts (which we never encountered before in any war) by flying planes we dont have in PAF inventory (correct me if i am wrong here)

chill out brothers, Pakistan is better off without accepting Israel.
and when it will come to an armed conflict, we will see

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## T-Rex

totach7 said:


> It is very peaceful................it what keep us alive from our "friendly"
> next door people



And some think that nukes will keep them alive from "friendly next door landgrabber". Now you can't really blame them can you?

---------- Post added at 04:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:26 AM ----------




totach7 said:


> It is very peaceful................it what keep us alive from our "friendly"
> next door people



And some think that nukes will keep them alive from "friendly next door Jewish nukes". Now you can't really blame them can you?


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## Kompromat

totach7 said:


> It is very peaceful................it what keep us alive from our "friendly"
> next door people



This is what happens when you go into someone else's house without permission with a gun, Make your self a cup of coffee , sit on their couch while putting your legs on their mirror table and turn on their plasma tv and watch soccor.

Then you put bullets in the bodies of the owner's family and keep their kids hostage.

There is more coming Kid , sit tight


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## matrixology

this is all weird.


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## Sparten80

Interesting thread.

Pakistan and Isreal do have much in common

Both established with a strong religion factor though thoroughly secular (Pakistan later becomes an Islamic Republic)

Have hostile neighboor(s), and outnumbered numerically in several wars but still standing and resilient as well as resourceful.

Share many of the same domestic problems; eg. having to absorb different ethnic groups from diverse regions often and in many cases not native to the soil (Israel: Jews from all over the world/Pakistan: Muslims from all over South Asia, Burma etc..) and striving to make a national identity.

Establishing a national language to facilitate communication (Israel had to re-invent Hebrew, calling on its noted Jewish Linguist in Germany to modernize Hebrew into the modern form spoken in Israel today and taught to the masses/ Pakistan, opting to choose Urdu, a non-native language and imparting it on the masses with a particularly Pakistani flavour to it)

Even socially and from a personal point of view, I have found that the Pakistani psyche and Jewish get along quite well. In university, I had several Jewish friends and one of my best friends in Karachi is a Jewish Pakistani. We are very similar in our approach and mentality.

In saying all of this, it is important to recognize the difference between someone who is Jewish and someone that is a zionist. 

And there is quite a difference between the two. Infact, many God-fearing Jews dont agree with Zionists. Many Zionist are non-practising jews, very secular in their ways, and actually try to pass themselves off as European or American Whites. Many zionists also abhor overtly practising Jews and restrictions on eating pork.

The reason I point all this out is that, while I feel Pakistan and Israel have lots in common and would benefit from having cordial relations. We would actually make great allies. Both countries have much to offer each other. The sad truth is that the extreme Zionists are in true control of Israel and continue to refuse to give Palestinians a free state and subjugate them with extreme force.

My heart goes out to all the millions of Palestinians who have suffered, lost their lives, and are striving for a nation of their own. My solidarity is with them. While, I do believe Jews are entitled to having their own country, a viable Palestinian state is a prerequisite to ever establishing relations with Israel and remains our (Pakistani) principal stance on the issue. 

It would be foolish on the part of Israel to overtly work with india and get involve in the affairs of South Asia as that would only provoke a reactionary response. As Pakistani's we want peace in the Middle East, we want an end to the Palestinian occupation and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state and peaceful relations with all neighboors. This is in the interest of all countries involved and more significantly, for Israel itself who must co-exist in the region. 

I have had this discussion with many of Jewish/Israeli colleagues, and even they agree that Pakistan would be a country they would love to have relations with. We still have a small Jewish community in the country, and its been hypothesized that several of the tribes in Pakistan may have links to the lost tribes. Pakistan would also benefit and can learn much from Israeli's. 

Lets hope the Israeli people can bring about a more moderate government and expedite the creation of a viable Palestinian State and usher in a new era of peace in the Middle East, peaceful relations with its neighboors and when the time is right, a benevolent relationship with Pakistan as well.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

to be honest with you, i just want some of their weapons.

lol


actually one of my main problems with them is that they think they invented hummous and baba ghannoush! (which is bullshit)

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## r4rehan

Conqueror said:


> Conflict between Pakistan and Israel is not territorial, but Ideological. A 6 months old child does not become a threat to Israel's existence but even then the child that cannot recognize his/her own parents is assassinated. Do you ever ask why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Quran Says - Al-Ma'idah - *
> *
> &#1610;&#1614;&#1575; &#1571;&#1614;&#1610;&#1615;&#1617;&#1607;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1570;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1617;&#1582;&#1616;&#1584;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1583;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1589;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1614;&#1609; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1590;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1590;&#1613; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606; &#1610;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605; &#1605;&#1616;&#1617;&#1606;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1614; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1610;&#1614;&#1607;&#1618;&#1583;&#1616;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1592;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; (5:51)
> *
> *O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another [72] and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide such evildoers. [73]*
> 
> Yahood (Jews) and Hanood (Followers of Hindu Religion) are not our friends, not because of money, nor because of land, neither because of power-sharing and never because of business BUT we are on two sides of the line drawn by God Almighty.



ISREAL INSHALLAH tumhara ALLAH jald faisla kare ga Hamare Hatoon inshaALLAH ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we are ready to fight we are ready to be died we are to kill every evil those kill innocent kids ,,,,, 

we are waiting for what every muslim knows that 

<(_|_)| AKBAR

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## Huda

Conqueror said:


> Conflict between Pakistan and Israel is not territorial, but Ideological. A 6 months old child does not become a threat to Israel's existence but even then the child that cannot recognize his/her own parents is assassinated. Do you ever ask why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Quran Says - Al-Ma'idah - *
> *
> &#1610;&#1614;&#1575; &#1571;&#1614;&#1610;&#1615;&#1617;&#1607;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1570;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1617;&#1582;&#1616;&#1584;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1583;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1589;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1614;&#1609; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1590;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1590;&#1613; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606; &#1610;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605; &#1605;&#1616;&#1617;&#1606;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1607;&#1614; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1610;&#1614;&#1607;&#1618;&#1583;&#1616;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1592;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; (5:51)
> *
> *O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another [72] and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide such evildoers. [73]*
> 
> Yahood (Jews) and Hanood (Followers of Hindu Religion) are not our friends, not because of money, nor because of land, neither because of power-sharing and never because of business BUT we are on two sides of the line drawn by God Almighty.




OH MY GOD
this is unbelievable

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## r4rehan

Yes ALLAH KNOWS EVERY THING ......

what behind in their mind and what behind in their heart ,,,,,,

<(_|_)| AKBAR

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## mughaljee

This is one reason among many why we hate israel.

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## Aslan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> to be honest with you, i just want some of their weapons.
> 
> lol
> 
> 
> actually one of my main problems with them is that they think they invented hummous and baba ghannoush! (which is bullshit)




Sir ji first of all to thank you for making that remark as I badly wanted to thank some one cause I was stuck at 666. 


secondly you are right, as they keep on competing with the Lebanese for the best hommous and the funny part is that the ones making it for them are the Arabs.


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## Super Falcon

welll but we each other di like each other alot because they can never ever even in hell be our friend


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## faisaljaffery

Adwitiya said:


> Indians already have good relation with all Muslim states apart from pakistan... the issues with bangladesh are getting resolved. we already have huge trade with middle east. we are the third largest muslim population and a secular nation. how can we be again our own people.
> 
> but on the same grounds we are not against jews either. they also are our friends. they suffer terrorism in the same way as we suffer. Things take a very diffrent perspective when they are seen from the lens of Islamic terrorism which has nothing islamic about it. but this creates a divide showing that indians are aginst muslims and muslims are against indians just because of a word.
> 
> As far as palestine is considered we want a peaceful solution which cannot be achieved either by firing rockets into Israel nor by military offensives from Israel... we have been involved palestine as well as with Israel both. so our stand is neutral in this regard though we want peace in the region. but it is upto the people of israel and palestine to decide on how to achieve it. Indians would be the first one if both them carve out a peaceful solutions to support.



You are talking about Palestine, and what about India's alledged occupation on the Kashmir and massacare of more then 50,000 kashmiri people by your army. Are people of India, who love peace and dont want war are sleeping over human right violations by your forces.


----------



## PakSher

Solomon2 said:


> In my opinion, Israel will never see genuine peace until its neighbors are willing to discuss not only how small Israel should be, but how big Israel should be as well. Remember, Israel is only 11,000 square miles if you include the Golan, West Bank, and Gaza, whereas the lands dominated by Arabs (where Jews lived before they were kicked out) currently total about five hundred times greater. (The original League of Nations plan for a Jewish homeland included Jordan, too.)



The size of Israel may be small but it cannot occupy land illegally to make it large. Singapore, Brunie and Kuwait are small so they should land grab to make it big. If Israel is small and other countries big that is not even in question. Kuwait should capture Saudi Arabian territory because SA has 3000 times more land, concept does not make any sense.

I believe in the Quran more and more now since it does state the history of Ban-i-Israel, how food use to come from heaven for them and how they will be scattered and then come together and how they will end up. Israel having an arrogant attitude is good for us since Israel's end days would come sooner than later including the return of the Christ.


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## mikkix

Bushy said:


> When the religious Israelis and Pakistanis covertly joined against a common atheist enemy:
> 
> 
> Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv, says a recently published book, Charlie Wilsons War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History.
> 
> The book reveals that the Pakistan Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation with Israel, although it did not acknowledge any contact with that country publicly. Congressman Charles Wilson  a pro-Pakistan activist and the central figure to get CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan  is credited in the 550-page book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman whom General Ziaul Haq fancied.
> 
> The book claims that Wilson asked Zia to deal with the Israelis during his first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made at a grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was later named as Honorary Consul of Pakistan.
> 
> The book says that Charlie Wilson informed Zia the Israelis had shown him the vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled, saying, Just dont put any Stars of David on the boxes.
> 
> With that encouragement, the narrative goes on, Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese armys Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.
> 
> It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the US embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his peoples hatred for both Israel and the United States [but] he encouraged Wilson to continue.
> 
> The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal even without CIA knowledge. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilsons efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it. Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.
> 
> The weapons name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.
> 
> It was decided that a new weapon would be introduced into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.
> 
> The book has been selling well in the USA but is still not available in Pakistan.
> 
> _Source: Daily Times Monitor_



pakistan still have relations with Israel and i hope it will come to media,,,,pakistan should accept israel and start trades with her...


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## mikkix

su-47 said:


> U r right. One (or at most, three) pak nuke can destroy Israel, but do u think for a sec there'll be a Pakistan left to rejoice wiping out Israel? Aside from the hundreds of Israeli nukes, you can rest assured there'll be US nukes falling in pakistan as well.
> 
> And if Indo-Israeli relations grow and we sign a military pact, u can add Indian nukes to that list.
> 
> In the end, a total lose-lose situation!



India can not sign a pact with Israel,,if she does,,,then 20000000 muslims in india will kick india's *** so we dont need to worry about india then. Including whole muslim world..


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## mikkix

@ pakistani bro,,
pakistan army cant attack israel or cant even help any muslims against israel..
They are the slaves of jewish american lobbist..


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## mikkix

mikkix said:


> @ pakistani bro,,
> pakistan army cant attack israel or cant even help any muslims against israel..
> They are the slaves of jewish american lobbist..



Pakistan should accept israel and maintains peace with them..
There is no Ummah here...
OIC,,Ohhh I see...
Pakistan army, beaureucrats and politicians should stop israel bashing..because we dont need to play with the emotions of pakistani that we can kick israel ***..
They (Army, politicians, beareucrats) are very good friends of isreal so stop trolling in media.. 
Sorry bros but above are very true and we have to accept it...


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## mikkix

All pakistani generals are working for CIA and they get the upper ranks with the approval of CIA..


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## Junaid375

"They (Army, politicians, beareucrats) are very good friends of isreal so stop trolling in media.. 
Sorry bros but above are very true and we have to accept it..."

might be few hundred of army men,politicians etc..
oh but rest of the 170 million population is not a very good friend 

have you even heard of palestine ? gaza ? flotilla ?

Muslims are nothing except brothers...problems of pakistan is our immediate concern and priority then we will be able to help any one else...but it doesnt mean that palestine problem is not our problem..

and again all above holds true if you are a muslim 
just reminding people the basic concept of islam..no preaching...

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## KS

mikkix said:


> India can not sign a pact with Israel,,if she does,,,then 20000000 muslims in india will kick india's *** so we dont need to worry about india then. Including whole muslim world..



BTW who gave u the right to decide on behalf of the Indian Muslims..?..btw its not 20 mil ..its abt 130 mils....Get ur facts straight.

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

In Islamic Kyrgyzstan the Kyrgz are salughtering the Uzbeks by the thousands and so far I see no out rage by Pakistan or any other Islamic County as long as Muslims are killing Muslems no one seems to mind...Is it possible that the outrage over the Palestinians including the recent Aid Shipments has to do more with Racism an Religious Bigotry then any thing else.


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## TaimiKhan

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> In Islamic Kyrgyzstan the Kyrgz are salughtering the Uzbeks by the thousands and so far I see no out rage by Pakistan or any other Islamic County as long as Muslims are killing Muslems no one seems to mind...Is it possible that the outrage over the Palestinians including the recent Aid Shipments has to do more with Racism an Religious Bigotry then any thing else.



Aaahhhhh the usual pro-Zionists card being played. 

If Muslims do this to each other, why ask Israel.

Here read this and the reasons for the clashes and so far hardly less then 100 people have died, not the thousands (as usual exaggerated figures by Zionists) quoted by you.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

TaimiKhan said:


> Aaahhhhh the usual pro-Zionists card being played.
> 
> If Muslims do this to each other, why ask Israel.
> 
> Here read this and the reasons for the clashes and so far hardly less then 100 people have died, not the thousands (as usual exaggerated figures by Zionists) quoted by you.



Your right on the numbers, at least so far, but why all the hate for Israel when Muslims murder Muslims with such enthusiasm even in Pakistan. Even when Saddam was murdering the Kurdish women and children by the thousands with chemical weapons I dont remember any Islamic Countries being that upset.


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## Junaid375

brother captain america, are you by any chance comparing palestine and uzbeks issues ?
whats happening in palestine is being done by state of israel,sponsored by govt of israel.*

in kyrghztan its being done by set of people, and govt is trying to stop it

can u spot the difference ? i dont think you cant *

Regards,
Junaid

*


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Junaid375 said:


> brother captain america, are you by any chance comparing palestine and uzbeks issues ?
> whats happening in palestine is being done by state of israel,sponsored by govt of israel.*
> 
> in kyrghztan its being done by set of people, and govt is trying to stop it
> 
> can u spot the difference ? i dont think you cant *
> 
> Regards,
> Junaid
> 
> *



What about what Saddam did to the Kurds or Irans goverment is doing the the Iranian People. I am just curious as if all this outrage is based on being morally compassionate for people or is the result of premitive and backward religious bigotry and racism. I dont see any concern for the hundreds of thousands of jews that were driven from Islamic Countries over the last 70 years.

http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries


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## Ras

mikkix said:


> India can not sign a pact with Israel,,if she does,,,then 20000000 muslims in india will kick india's *** so we dont need to worry about india then. Including whole muslim world..



India has an extremely good relationship with Israel based on trade...I think it was 9 billion last year alone.

India even sends up Israeli spy satellites. In India as a democracy the majority makes policies and it is not based on religion.


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## GUNNER

*Is Pakistan like Israel?*

By Khaled Ahmed 

June 13, 2010

The writer is a director at the South Asia Free Media Association, Lahore (khaled.ahmed@tribune.com.pk)

Ayesha Siddiqa in her June 6 column in The Express Tribune made a very interesting comparison between Pakistan and Israel: both were supposedly formed on the basis of religion, both are national security states with illegal nukes and are internationally isolated. The comparison is favourable to neither. There are minor differences, however.

Pakistan has a constitution which says it is a religious state. Israel doesnt have a constitution, so its legal status is undecided. But were the two demanded in the name of religion? It is not certain.
The only document that lays out the nature of the Israeli state is proclamation of Madinat Yisrael of 1948. (State in Hebrew is madina!) This is the proclamation about the foundation of the state. It speaks of Israel as a homeland of all Jews. It says the values of the state of Israel will be based on the teachings of the Hebrew Prophets.

The Proclamation of Independence, read over the radio by Prime Minister Ben Gurion in 1948, is controversial in Israel. But the truth is that secular Israelis would not sign it if it contained the name of God. Prime Minister Ben Gurion, whose secularism and left-leaning thinking prevented the rightwing observing Jews from coming to power till 1977, did not allow the word God in the Proclamation.

Non-observing Jews founded Israel while the orthodox Jews opposed it. A constitution would have clearly defined the ideology of Israel, but no agreement exists so far on such a constitution.
In the case of Pakistan, partially observing but non-clerical Muslims founded the state. A majority of the clerical parties rejected Pakistan just as most orthodox Jews were to reject the Herzl-Gurion enterprise called Israel.

Like Ben Gurion, Jinnah did not want a religious state. When he spoke about the nature of the state on 11 Aug 1948 three days before its actual coming into being, he described it as a secular state. After his death in 1948, his successors thought of defining the state in Islamic terms.

In the case of Israel, this did not happen. The Labour socialists dominated Israel till 1977. Ben Gurion hated Menachim Begin, the founder of right-wing Likud. If he had had his way, Israel would not have continued to occupy the lands it conquered in 1967.

One can say that Israel is still secular because of its 40 per cent Ashkenazi European-Jewish population. Judaism has a sharia abandoned by the European Jews in the 17th century. When it came, Islam did not follow the Pauline-Christian rejection of the Sharia. The Mishnaic-Talmudic parallel authority is comparable to the authority of Hadith.

Pakistan wrote up its Objectives Resolution in 1949 after Jinnahs death. It mentioned God in it, which later became Allah. It allowed the non-Muslim minorities to practise their religion freely, but when the resolution appeared inside the constitution in 1985, freely disappeared from the text without due notification. (It has been reinstated by the 18th amendment in 2010.)

Like Pakistan, Israel also treats its minorities badly. Mullahs in Pakistan and rabbis in Israel wield power, because of ideology in the case of Pakistan, and proportional representation in the case of Israel. Unlike Pakistan, Israel invited all Jews of the world to Israel.
Quite brainlessly, it was proclaimed that Pakistan was made up of letters indicating the regions contained in it. It contained Kashmir but not East Bengal. The first it never got and the second it lost in 1971.
Israel too was named all wrong. 

The name of the Jewish state under the prophet-king David was Judea. Israel in the Bible was in fact a renegade state destroyed for its evil in 722 BC. In rabbinic translation, the name Israel means wrestling with God. In Arabic too if you write sara with suad instead of seen, it means wrestling.

Published in the Express Tribune, June 13th, 2010.

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## mikkix

Karthic Sri said:


> BTW who gave u the right to decide on behalf of the Indian Muslims..?..btw its not 20 mil ..its abt 130 mils....Get ur facts straight.



Sorry i missed one zero,,,And let you clear that muslims have a population around 200 millions...
No i dont have a right for muslims in india but when in the case of israelis when you joined them against Islam,,,then definitely it will become their problem thats my opinion..
Hope time will tell you...
Or may be you will not go With Zionists..
Sorry I used word Israel,,,I dont have a issue with Israelis,,,Its zionists..
But one thing for sure Israeli state should be settled in Europe or in america or may be in australia or africa,,,but not in palestine...
They came from various countries to occupied palestine..
I still can allowed them to be settled there when they accept Palestine as a state and give them independence...
But they want greater Israel which is stretched from River Nile to syria and from Meditterranian to west of Saudia,,,Under which they want to rule syria, jordan, west of Arabia and egypt and it will happen...


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## Junaid375

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> What about what Saddam did to the Kurds or Irans goverment is doing the the Iranian People. I am just curious as if all this outrage is based on being morally compassionate for people or is the result of premitive and backward religious bigotry and racism. I dont see any concern for the hundreds of thousands of jews that were driven from Islamic Countries over the last 70 years.
> 
> Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries :: Middle East Quarterly



brother, let me give you a simple example...
I went for prayers in Masjid, my shoes got stolen, now what should I do now ? my shoes are stolen, I am a victim, I need to get home..
but can I steal a shoe and go home ? NO

Palestinians are victims of Victims..if you were raped, it doesn't give you right to rape others...

look at the bigger picture and try to understand the scenario...
don't pick examples from last one or two decades...please have more memory than last 20 years...

No one collaborated with Saddam when he was carrying out massacre of kurds, in the world we live in, the least you can do is: NOT to support the aggressor...but you are trying to justify Israel's inhuman acts by pointing out silence sustained by flawed leaders of muslim countries...you argument is weak since your premise is invalid....

Kurds are different issue altogether, United Kingdom occupied Iraq twice and many times placed pro-UK govt but they left Kurds with no country,they could have carved out an area for them and declared independence of Kurd region, just like NOW USA+NATO has done after destroying Iraq.

Please stick to Pakistan and Israel, we can have another thread related to Kurds,IRAQ,Invasion of Iraq...


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## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> What about what Saddam did to the Kurds or Irans goverment is doing the the Iranian People. I am just curious as if all this outrage is based on being morally compassionate for people or is the result of premitive and backward religious bigotry and racism. I dont see any concern for the hundreds of thousands of jews that were driven from Islamic Countries over the last 70 years.
> 
> Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries :: Middle East Quarterly



Saddam was a crazy basterd,,,but he wasn't kiled by americans just because he killed Kurds,, he didnt even attacked america nor he had a WMDS...He was Slaughtered due to the facts that he wanted to trade their oil companies with all states in EURO which results america to be collapsed economicalyy..Remember trade in oil Is in $$
So it definitely matters for CIA and offcourse Zionists who ruled america for the past centuries...
Iranian govt doing great for their peolple you are living in world where CNN,BBC,Fox and other biased and calculated and Drivened by CIA media groups shows you,,,*wake up...*I dont know when these americans will awake,,time will near in th future...


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## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> What about what Saddam did to the Kurds or Irans goverment is doing the the Iranian People. I am just curious as if all this outrage is based on being morally compassionate for people or is the result of premitive and backward religious bigotry and racism. I dont see any concern for the hundreds of thousands of jews that were driven from Islamic Countries over the last 70 years.
> 
> Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries :: Middle East Quarterly



Where was america when saddam slaughters hundreds of Kurds??? it was the time when they need him(Saddam) against Iran and wanted to occupy kuwait so they supports Saddam..
Do you know why they supports Kurds because they want a state of kurds which results in to divide Turkey...
Thats their plan.


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## mikkix

Ras said:


> India has an extremely good relationship with Israel based on trade...I think it was 9 billion last year alone.
> 
> India even sends up Israeli spy satellites. In India as a democracy the majority makes policies and it is not based on religion.



Yes India has???
But what i m saying that india can not signed a defense pact where india will and should support Israel when israel goes in a war against muslims or arabs..
If india does then whole muslim world against them like istraelis..
Thats my point..


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## mikkix

Ras said:


> India has an extremely good relationship with Israel based on trade...I think it was 9 billion last year alone.
> 
> India even sends up Israeli spy satellites. In India as a democracy the majority makes policies and it is not based on religion.



Hmmm,,
So you are indian with american flag..

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## Ras

mikkix said:


> Yes India has???
> But what i m saying that india can not signed a defense pact where india will and should support Israel when israel goes in a war against muslims or arabs..
> If india does then whole muslim world against them like istraelis..
> Thats my point..



It does not serve India's interest to fight wars for Israel...nor can Israel help India in any meaningful way in any military conflict so the question of a defense pact does not arise. That does not mean India will support any Arabs against Israel either.That is not in India's interest either. Israeli-Arab conflict is not India's business so basically India does not care whether one slaughters the other.

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------




mikkix said:


> Hmmm,,
> So you are indian with american flag..



I am an American of Indian origin...you can put it that way.

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

mikkix said:


> Saddam was a crazy basterd,,,but he wasn't kiled by americans just because he killed Kurds,, he didnt even attacked america nor he had a WMDS...He was Slaughtered due to the facts that he wanted to trade their oil companies with all states in EURO which results america to be collapsed economicalyy..Remember trade in oil Is in $$
> So it definitely matters for CIA and offcourse Zionists who ruled america for the past centuries...
> Iranian govt doing great for their peolple you are living in world where CNN,BBC,Fox and other biased and calculated and Drivened by CIA media groups shows you,,,*wake up...*I dont know when these americans will awake,,time will near in th future...



Did you ever read this speech by Musharraf

By Zaffar Abbas in Islamabad 



Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said Islamic countries will remain backward unless they concentrate more on scientific and technological development. 

Muslim nations are internally involved in fratricidal conflicts and perceived by the outside world as terrorists with little attention being given on their uplift, he said. 




Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race 

President Musharraf 
General Musharraf made his comments in an address to a conference of science and technology attended by ministers from Muslim countries. 
President Musharraf said the time had come for Islamic nations to take part in collective self-criticism. 

Once such an assessment is made, it would not be difficult to realise that the entire Islamic world was far behind the developed world, he argued. 

'The most unhealthy' 

The Muslim Ummah, or the Islamic world, he said was presently living in darkness. 

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates. 



Musharraf wants to rid Pakistan of extremism

President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries. 

While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn. 

He said one of the main reasons for this disparity was that none of the Muslim countries had ever paid any attention to educational and scientific development. 

He asked the countries participating in the conference to concentrate on scientific and technological development in order to compete with the developed world. 

The real jihad 

The Pakistani leader suggested the setting up of a multi-billion dollar fund for such a purpose. 

Beside this, he said, there was a need for creating centres of excellence in the field of science and technology. 

He also called for the creation of scholarships for young scientists to seek knowledge from universities in developed countries. 

President Musharraf described it as the real jihad, or holy war. 

Unless this was done, the Islamic world and Muslims would always be perceived as backward, illiterate - those who only indulge in extremism and violence.


BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Musharraf berates Muslim world
and you think its time for the USA to wake up.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i agree with what General (retd.) Musharraf said at that conference 1000%



.....



and what is the relevance here?


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i agree with what General (retd.) Musharraf said at that conference 1000&#37;
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> 
> 
> and what is the relevance here?



Good point I have a tendancy to wander.


----------



## Usama86

Ras said:


> It does not serve India's interest to fight wars for Israel...*nor can Israel help India in any meaningful way in any military conflict* so the question of a defense pact does not arise. That does not mean India will support any Arabs against Israel either.That is not in India's interest either. Israeli-Arab conflict is not India's business so basically India does not care whether one slaughters the other.
> 
> 
> I am not very sure about what you said, infact Israel's ambassador to India might also not agree with you. Here is what he had to say about helping each other out during war.
> 
> www.outlookindia.com | 'The Secret Part Of Indo-Israel Defence Ties Will Remain A Secret'
> 
> _Certain issues between countries do need to remain under wraps for whatever reason. I don't think the Indian authorities would be happy if we were to discuss in public. We have a burgeoning relationship *and the defence relationship got a major boost during Kargil, when Israel came to India's assistance when India was in great need and brought about the turnaround in the situation on the ground. I think we proved then to Indian government that you can rely on us that we have the wherewithal. A friend in need is a friend indeed.* I have been in India for four months and I hear a great deal of respect for Israel also on non-defence issues--agriculture, drip irrigation, high-tech. There is a groundswell of goodwill towards Israel among the Indian people.
> Defence relationships between countries are generally secret and they should be. Certain facts are on the table but we don't make a noise about things._
> 
> It is widely believed that Israel atleast provided India with spy satalite pictures of the location of the enemy up on the mountains. There could be much more but one can only speculate, whats confirm is that it was substantial enough to get India out of the hole.


----------



## Ras

Usama86 said:


> I am not very sure about what you said, infact Israel's ambassador to India might also not agree with you. Here is what he had to say about helping each other out during war.
> 
> www.outlookindia.com | 'The Secret Part Of Indo-Israel Defence Ties Will Remain A Secret'
> 
> _Certain issues between countries do need to remain under wraps for whatever reason. I don't think the Indian authorities would be happy if we were to discuss in public. We have a burgeoning relationship *and the defence relationship got a major boost during Kargil, when Israel came to India's assistance when India was in great need and brought about the turnaround in the situation on the ground. I think we proved then to Indian government that you can rely on us that we have the wherewithal. A friend in need is a friend indeed.* I have been in India for four months and I hear a great deal of respect for Israel also on non-defence issues--agriculture, drip irrigation, high-tech. There is a groundswell of goodwill towards Israel among the Indian people.
> Defence relationships between countries are generally secret and they should be. Certain facts are on the table but we don't make a noise about things._
> 
> It is widely believed that Israel atleast provided India with spy satalite pictures of the location of the enemy up on the mountains. There could be much more but one can only speculate, whats confirm is that it was substantial enough to get India out of the hole.



Well if that is the criteria then India should already be in a defense pact with Russia who helped India in each and every war she has fought.This is a lot different from being in a NATO like pact with Israel.
Any Israeli help in Kargil has been well rewarded with billions of dollars of trade in the last decade.


----------



## U-571

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Did you ever read this speech by Musharraf
> 
> By Zaffar Abbas in Islamabad
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said Islamic countries will remain backward unless they concentrate more on scientific and technological development.
> 
> Muslim nations are internally involved in fratricidal conflicts and perceived by the outside world as terrorists with little attention being given on their uplift, he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race
> 
> President Musharraf
> General Musharraf made his comments in an address to a conference of science and technology attended by ministers from Muslim countries.
> President Musharraf said the time had come for Islamic nations to take part in collective self-criticism.
> 
> Once such an assessment is made, it would not be difficult to realise that the entire Islamic world was far behind the developed world, he argued.
> 
> 'The most unhealthy'
> 
> The Muslim Ummah, or the Islamic world, he said was presently living in darkness.
> 
> "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.
> 
> 
> 
> Musharraf wants to rid Pakistan of extremism
> 
> President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.
> 
> While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.
> 
> He said one of the main reasons for this disparity was that none of the Muslim countries had ever paid any attention to educational and scientific development.
> 
> He asked the countries participating in the conference to concentrate on scientific and technological development in order to compete with the developed world.
> 
> The real jihad
> 
> The Pakistani leader suggested the setting up of a multi-billion dollar fund for such a purpose.
> 
> Beside this, he said, there was a need for creating centres of excellence in the field of science and technology.
> 
> He also called for the creation of scholarships for young scientists to seek knowledge from universities in developed countries.
> 
> President Musharraf described it as the real jihad, or holy war.
> 
> Unless this was done, the Islamic world and Muslims would always be perceived as backward, illiterate - those who only indulge in extremism and violence.
> 
> 
> BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Musharraf berates Muslim world
> and you think its time for the USA to wake up.



go to india and see the grimmest of human poverty and suffering!!


----------



## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Did you ever read this speech by Musharraf
> 
> By Zaffar Abbas in Islamabad
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said Islamic countries will remain backward unless they concentrate more on scientific and technological development.
> 
> Muslim nations are internally involved in fratricidal conflicts and perceived by the outside world as terrorists with little attention being given on their uplift, he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race
> 
> President Musharraf
> General Musharraf made his comments in an address to a conference of science and technology attended by ministers from Muslim countries.
> President Musharraf said the time had come for Islamic nations to take part in collective self-criticism.
> 
> Once such an assessment is made, it would not be difficult to realise that the entire Islamic world was far behind the developed world, he argued.
> 
> 'The most unhealthy'
> 
> The Muslim Ummah, or the Islamic world, he said was presently living in darkness.
> 
> "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.
> 
> 
> 
> Musharraf wants to rid Pakistan of extremism
> 
> President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.
> 
> While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.
> 
> He said one of the main reasons for this disparity was that none of the Muslim countries had ever paid any attention to educational and scientific development.
> 
> He asked the countries participating in the conference to concentrate on scientific and technological development in order to compete with the developed world.
> 
> The real jihad
> 
> The Pakistani leader suggested the setting up of a multi-billion dollar fund for such a purpose.
> 
> Beside this, he said, there was a need for creating centres of excellence in the field of science and technology.
> 
> He also called for the creation of scholarships for young scientists to seek knowledge from universities in developed countries.
> 
> President Musharraf described it as the real jihad, or holy war.
> 
> Unless this was done, the Islamic world and Muslims would always be perceived as backward, illiterate - those who only indulge in extremism and violence.
> 
> 
> BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Musharraf berates Muslim world
> and you think its time for the USA to wake up.



I 10000% agree and I believed in it so whats the point of it to my post..???


----------



## mikkix

Ras said:


> Well if that is the criteria then India should already be in a defense pact with Russia who helped India in each and every war she has fought.This is a lot different from being in a NATO like pact with Israel.
> Any Israeli help in Kargil has been well rewarded with billions of dollars of trade in the last decade.



Brother my point is very simple..
I Know india has some sort of defense pact with Israel or vice versa..
But my point is that india will and should come for any help to israelis in the nearest future then it will reconfirmed the case of Pakistanis in the Muslim Ummah that India is against Islam or Muslims..Or forget pakistani case,, Muslims oR Arabs will become against indians when they will see india joined hands with zionists to target muslims...even indian muslims can frustrusted with such actions which can increase internal riots and differences in india....
Thats my point and i think it is good for pakistani diplomacy...


----------



## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Did you ever read this speech by Musharraf
> 
> By Zaffar Abbas in Islamabad
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said Islamic countries will remain backward unless they concentrate more on scientific and technological development.
> 
> Muslim nations are internally involved in fratricidal conflicts and perceived by the outside world as terrorists with little attention being given on their uplift, he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race
> 
> President Musharraf
> General Musharraf made his comments in an address to a conference of science and technology attended by ministers from Muslim countries.
> President Musharraf said the time had come for Islamic nations to take part in collective self-criticism.
> 
> Once such an assessment is made, it would not be difficult to realise that the entire Islamic world was far behind the developed world, he argued.
> 
> 'The most unhealthy'
> 
> The Muslim Ummah, or the Islamic world, he said was presently living in darkness.
> 
> "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.
> 
> 
> 
> Musharraf wants to rid Pakistan of extremism
> 
> President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.
> 
> While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.
> 
> He said one of the main reasons for this disparity was that none of the Muslim countries had ever paid any attention to educational and scientific development.
> 
> He asked the countries participating in the conference to concentrate on scientific and technological development in order to compete with the developed world.
> 
> The real jihad
> 
> The Pakistani leader suggested the setting up of a multi-billion dollar fund for such a purpose.
> 
> Beside this, he said, there was a need for creating centres of excellence in the field of science and technology.
> 
> He also called for the creation of scholarships for young scientists to seek knowledge from universities in developed countries.
> 
> President Musharraf described it as the real jihad, or holy war.
> 
> Unless this was done, the Islamic world and Muslims would always be perceived as backward, illiterate - those who only indulge in extremism and violence.
> 
> 
> BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Musharraf berates Muslim world
> and you think its time for the USA to wake up.



What i understand from this post of yours that India was, is and will never considered muslims world to be a factor of its policy..
It can adapt whatever it suits india,,,,,means whatever muslim world think against india it can do what he wants???????
Is it right...
Then my question is very simple does india tackle such situation by having 200 millions muslim in their country???


----------



## Usama86

Ras said:


> Well if that is the criteria then India should already be in a defense pact with Russia who helped India in each and every war she has fought.This is a lot different from being in a NATO like pact with Israel.
> Any Israeli help in Kargil has been well rewarded with billions of dollars of trade in the last decade.



Sorry for jumping into the debate, the point i made was only in response to what you said about Israel's inability to help India in a conflict thats why i highlighted it when i was quoting you. I think what ever happened in Kargil was the need of the hour, India needed outside help and anyone would have been welcomed. In the long term India offcourse will not sign such a defence pact with Israel because it will put India on a collision course with the arabs (who are most likely to fight Israel if ever they do) and India would also not want to damage the good relations it has with arab countries in terms of trade. I am sure India will find a diplomatic way out, they are good at diplomacy.


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

mikkix said:


> I 10000% agree and I believed in it so whats the point of it to my post..???



What Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said comes to my mind when Pakistanis say something stupid like the Iraq War was over oil or that 911 was an inside job or when a Mosque is bombed.


----------



## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> What Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said comes to my mind when Pakistanis say something stupid like the Iraq War was over oil or that 911 was an inside job or when a Mosque is bombed.



Iraq war is for what,,,,????
made Bulidings in the desert or arranging dance parties???


----------



## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> What Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said comes to my mind when Pakistanis say something stupid like the Iraq War was over oil or that 911 was an inside job or when a Mosque is bombed.



I dont want to say anything about this conspiracy of 911 we will get our answers after some decades and i hope that you and me will be here to discuss what it was all about for???


----------



## U-571

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> What Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said comes to my mind when Pakistanis say something stupid like the Iraq War was over oil or that 911 was an inside job or when a Mosque is bombed.



iraq war is some thing stupid to stand against??, do you like war, people like are such an idiot, what happens when war arrives at your home, pray for peace mean while, war will destroy your family, nation, wealth, future, feel sympathy for people's suffering or "modernization" and mechination has made you mentally retarded or unresponsive to pain??

can you explain what is the true purpose of iraq war???, saddam is gone along with every reason americans had to invade this country for, american democrazy has been established, not why is the latest standing???


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

U-571 said:


> iraq war is some thing stupid to stand against??, do you like war, people like are such an idiot, what happens when war arrives at your home, pray for peace mean while, war will destroy your family, nation, wealth, future, feel sympathy for people's suffering or "modernization" and mechination has made you mentally retarded or unresponsive to pain??
> 
> can you explain what is the true purpose of iraq war???, saddam is gone along with every reason americans had to invade this country for, american democrazy has been established, not why is the latest standing???



The true ultimate purpose of the intervention was to help Arab countries reshape themselves in accordance with the Arab Human Development Report of 2002. This document, prepared by Arab experts and intellectuals, has pointed out three main reasons for the underdevelopment and backwardness of the region: 

1: Lack of political freedom.

2: Discrimination and exclusion of women from public life. 

3: Very low levels of education. 

Unfortunately the report does not describe any real domestic political movements in Arab countries capable of realizing such an agenda. Such internal movements either simply do not exist, or, where they do exist, they do not possess enough influence to change the system. If no-one, not the present authorities, the intellectual elites, or even the militant Islamists are able to begin modernizing the Arab countries, then the stimulus has to come from the outside. Many Arab thinkers, including Fouad Ajami, Kanan Makiya, Fareed Zakaria, Khalid Kishtaini and others who are not prejudiced against the West, agree with this conclusion.

The first, perhaps minor, conclusion we may draw from the intervention in Iraq, is that to accomplish ones tasks one needs to use a language ones opponents can understand. Unfortunately some people only understand the language of force. Secondly, once again we see that peace comes with a price, and sometimes it is worth paying. Peace at any price contradicts itself. For some, freedom is priceless and they are willing to prove it by their own sacrifices. In the end the actions of the American leadership prove that America is determined to continue the course of its foreign policy.

The European Courier | Benefits of War in Iraq

Freedom and Democracy comes a high price usually in blood and does not thrive well in countries that are poor illiterate and backward, it was thought perhaps Iraq had come far enought to understand that fact, I guess only time will tell.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Capt america there is another benefit to iraq
..
1 million dead iraqi and so now its not very populace.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Capt america there is another benefit to iraq
> ..
> 1 million dead iraqi and so now its not very populace.



The Health Ministry of the Iraqi government estimated 87,215 Iraqi violent deaths between January 1, 2005 and February 28, 2009. The number excludes thousands of people who are missing and civilians who were buried in the chaos of war without official notice. If included, those would raise the number of dead for that period by 10 to 20 percent according to the government official who provided the data to the Associated Press. The data was in the form of a list of yearly totals for death certificates issued for violent deaths by hospitals and morgues between Jan. 1, 2005, and Feb. 28, 2009. The Health ministry does not have figures for the first two years of the war.

I would point out that most of the dead were killed by Iraqis and is far fewer then the number of Iraqis killing in Saddams wars.


----------



## mughaljee

*If someone ,Genes, should be permanently vanished from earth. Those are Jews, and it will happened.*


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

mughaljee said:


> *If someone ,Genes, should be permanently vanished from earth. Those are Jews, and it will happened.*



The intelligence of the Ashkenazi Jews has been the subject of study and speculation within the fields of psychometry and evolutionary biology. Some psychometric studies have reported generally higher IQ's among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.

One highly publicised proposal by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy and Henry Harpending puts the psychometric findings into an evolutionary perspective, suggesting that the Ashkenazi collective history of segregation and persecution in medieval Europe could have prompted higher intelligence to emerge as a result of natural selection.

Certain psychometric studies have found that people who identified themselves as Jewish scored higher than average on various tests,[2][8] with estimates ranging from 3 to 12 points above the mean of other Caucasians (non-Jews), whose score is generally normalized to 100. These studies (see references) also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical performance; spatial and visual-perceptual performance is average. The authors argue that these finding are supported by Ashkenazi academic achievement, noting that while, for example, in the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent less than 2% of the population, they have won 27% of the US Nobel Prizes in science.[2]
Ashkenazi intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and I might point out the majority of the worlds chess championships.

Im curious. What do you think the average intelligence might be of the following groups:

Jews in Israel of European origin (Ash/Seph or other)
Mizrahi Jews
Palestinian Arabs

ARABS:

Lets compare them to other Arab states. Egypt is 83. Lebanon is 86. Morocco is 85. Iraq is 87. Qatar is 78. That seems to be the Arab range: 78-87. I havent seen any Arab countries score in the 90s and only Qatar is in the 70s. The average of the 5 Arab countries listed by IQ and the Wealth of Nations is 83.8, so the Palestinians are probably around 85. Whether its a couple points more or less is irrelevant, just a margin of error, and at the same time, I doubt that they are above 90 because no other Arab country is.

ASHKENAZIM

The pure-blooded Ashkenazim score probably the same as they do elsewhere 112-115.

Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Arab IQ in Israel Ethnic Genome Project

No wonder you dont like the Jews Genes


----------



## Junaid375

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> The intelligence of the Ashkenazi Jews has been the subject of study and speculation within the fields of psychometry and evolutionary biology. Some psychometric studies have reported generally higher IQ's among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.
> 
> One highly publicised proposal by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy and Henry Harpending puts the psychometric findings into an evolutionary perspective, suggesting that the Ashkenazi collective history of segregation and persecution in medieval Europe could have prompted higher intelligence to emerge as a result of natural selection.
> 
> Certain psychometric studies have found that people who identified themselves as Jewish scored higher than average on various tests,[2][8] with estimates ranging from 3 to 12 points above the mean of other Caucasians (non-Jews), whose score is generally normalized to 100. These studies (see references) also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical performance; spatial and visual-perceptual performance is average. The authors argue that these finding are supported by Ashkenazi academic achievement, noting that while, for example, in the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent less than 2% of the population, they have won 27% of the US Nobel Prizes in science.[2]
> Ashkenazi intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> and I might point out the majority of the worlds chess championships.
> 
> Im curious. What do you think the average intelligence might be of the following groups:
> 
> Jews in Israel of European origin (Ash/Seph or other)
> Mizrahi Jews
> Palestinian Arabs
> 
> ARABS:
> 
> Lets compare them to other Arab states. Egypt is 83. Lebanon is 86. Morocco is 85. Iraq is 87. Qatar is 78. That seems to be the Arab range: 78-87. I havent seen any Arab countries score in the 90s and only Qatar is in the 70s. The average of the 5 Arab countries listed by IQ and the Wealth of Nations is 83.8, so the Palestinians are probably around 85. Whether its a couple points more or less is irrelevant, just a margin of error, and at the same time, I doubt that they are above 90 because no other Arab country is.
> 
> ASHKENAZIM
> 
> The pure-blooded Ashkenazim score probably the same as they do elsewhere 112-115.
> 
> Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Arab IQ in Israel Ethnic Genome Project
> 
> No wonder you dont like the Jews Genes



brother captain america, you dont have to reply to every thing said against jews. what Mughaljee has said was a totally wrong and by replying to his rant you are going no where either..

please keep this blood-line, gene pool crap to yourself (in order to claim racial supremacy or something).

be constructive and contribute something to this forum..

your response is as stupid as mughaljee's statement 

stick to topic please.


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Junaid375 said:


> brother captain america, you dont have to reply to every thing said against jews. what Mughaljee has said was a totally wrong and by replying to his rant you are going no where either..
> 
> please keep this blood-line, gene pool crap to yourself (in order to claim racial supremacy or something).
> 
> be constructive and contribute something to this forum..
> 
> your response is as stupid as mughaljee's statement
> 
> stick to topic please.



Just thought the subject of IQ was interesting,,,average IQ of Israel is 94, that of Pakistan 81 to 85,,also some interesting studies of economics and IQ,, do you think there is any thing to it. Dont get so excited,,,


----------



## Junaid375

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Just thought the subject of IQ was interesting,,,average IQ of Israel is 94, that of Pakistan 81 to 85,,also some interesting studies of economics and IQ,, do you think there is any thing to it. Dont get so excited,,,



your fellow zionists might get excited and find this IQ thing very interesting, sorry but most of us are not buying it...
and we are not interested in studies conducted to legitimize zionism (and ku klux klan etc)


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Junaid375 said:


> your fellow zionists might get excited and find this IQ thing very interesting, sorry but most of us are not buying it...
> and we are not interested in studies conducted to legitimize zionism (and ku klux klan etc)



Everbody that you disagee with or has a differant opinion is not necessarly Jewish or from India.

Another interesting article on the subject.
VDARE.com: 09/26/07 - Indians Arent That Intelligent (On Average)


----------



## Junaid375

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Everbody that you disagee with or has a differant opinion is not necessarly Jewish or from India.
> 
> Another interesting article on the subject.
> VDARE.com: 09/26/07 - Indians Arent That Intelligent (On Average)



hahaha come on brother, do you really find that study "interesting" ?

and in your OPINION, indians are dumb on average and all jews are zionists ?

seriously ? lol


----------



## mikkix

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> The true ultimate purpose of the intervention was to help Arab countries reshape themselves in accordance with the Arab Human Development Report of 2002. This document, prepared by Arab experts and intellectuals, has pointed out three main reasons for the underdevelopment and backwardness of the region:
> 
> 1: Lack of political freedom.
> 
> 2: Discrimination and exclusion of women from public life.
> 
> 3: Very low levels of education.
> 
> Unfortunately the report does not describe any real domestic political movements in Arab countries capable of realizing such an agenda. Such internal movements either simply do not exist, or, where they do exist, they do not possess enough influence to change the system. If no-one, not the present authorities, the intellectual elites, or even the militant Islamists are able to begin modernizing the Arab countries, then the stimulus has to come from the outside. Many Arab thinkers, including Fouad Ajami, Kanan Makiya, Fareed Zakaria, Khalid Kishtaini and others who are not prejudiced against the West, agree with this conclusion.
> 
> The first, perhaps minor, conclusion we may draw from the intervention in Iraq, is that to accomplish ones tasks one needs to use a language ones opponents can understand. Unfortunately some people only understand the language of force. Secondly, once again we see that peace comes with a price, and sometimes it is worth paying. Peace at any price contradicts itself. For some, freedom is priceless and they are willing to prove it by their own sacrifices. In the end the actions of the American leadership prove that America is determined to continue the course of its foreign policy.
> 
> The European Courier | Benefits of War in Iraq
> 
> Freedom and Democracy comes a high price usually in blood and does not thrive well in countries that are poor illiterate and backward, it was thought perhaps Iraq had come far enought to understand that fact, I guess only time will tell.



jews of the world definitely and surely intelligent that is why they ruling america, europe and the worlddd... no doubt..

*For Iraq war*

Saddam was a crazy basterd,,,but he wasn't kiled by americans just because he killed Kurds,, he didnt even attacked america nor he had a WMDS...He was Slaughtered due to the facts that he wanted to trade their oil companies with all states in EURO which results america to be collapsed economicalyy..Remember trade in oil Is in $$
So it definitely matters for CIA and offcourse Zionists who ruled america for the past centuries...
Iranian govt doing great for their peolple you are living in world where CNN,BBC,Fox and other biased and calculated and Drivened by CIA media groups shows you,,,wake up...I dont know when these americans will awake,,time will near in th future... 

the above is my previous post


----------



## Parashuram1

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> The true ultimate purpose of the intervention was to help Arab countries reshape themselves in accordance with the Arab Human Development Report of 2002. This document, prepared by Arab experts and intellectuals, has pointed out three main reasons for the underdevelopment and backwardness of the region:
> 
> 1: Lack of political freedom.
> 
> 2: Discrimination and exclusion of women from public life.
> 
> 3: Very low levels of education.
> 
> Unfortunately the report does not describe any real domestic political movements in Arab countries capable of realizing such an agenda. Such internal movements either simply do not exist, or, where they do exist, they do not possess enough influence to change the system. If no-one, not the present authorities, the intellectual elites, or even the militant Islamists are able to begin modernizing the Arab countries, then the stimulus has to come from the outside. Many Arab thinkers, including Fouad Ajami, Kanan Makiya, Fareed Zakaria, Khalid Kishtaini and others who are not prejudiced against the West, agree with this conclusion.
> 
> The first, perhaps minor, conclusion we may draw from the intervention in Iraq, is that to accomplish ones tasks one needs to use a language ones opponents can understand. Unfortunately some people only understand the language of force. Secondly, once again we see that peace comes with a price, and sometimes it is worth paying. Peace at any price contradicts itself. For some, freedom is priceless and they are willing to prove it by their own sacrifices. In the end the actions of the American leadership prove that America is determined to continue the course of its foreign policy.
> 
> The European Courier | Benefits of War in Iraq
> 
> Freedom and Democracy comes a high price usually in blood and does not thrive well in countries that are poor illiterate and backward, it was thought perhaps Iraq had come far enought to understand that fact, I guess only time will tell.





> 1: Lack of political freedom.
> 
> 2: Discrimination and exclusion of women from public life.
> 
> 3: Very low levels of education.



*Mr. Captain America*,

With all due respect to Human Rights, do you not consider this to be applicable to the entire set of GCC countries? All are despotic, all have single party (I should say family) rule, the women are treated like objects, education levels are not publicly disclosed with extremely different interpretation of what exactly civil education means--- especially United States' darlings Saudi and Kuwait? Then on what grounds does the American government not attack these places, if it is indeed for the upholding of democratic principles and freeing people of totalitarian regimes?

The entire region from Morocco to Iran is ruled by totalitarian regimes with the exception of Israel being the only democracy as a political structure. According to your points stated here, you would need to invade all these countries to instill democracies, alleviate backward illiteracy (which exists despite tremendous wealth), uplift women's status to human levels etc.

If Iraq War has a justification based on the points above, then so does the entire region. It might seem impractical but it is as impractical as the whole point of Iraq war. While I don't believe United States invaded Iraq for oil, I do believe that there are military ambitions in the region as United States' strategic presence in Asia and Middle East is being eroded. There were virtually no insurgencies prior to the war.

Afghanistan war, yes it has relevance because of Taliban's soft corner for militant organizations worldwide in the country but Iraq never made sense.


----------



## Parashuram1

mikkix said:


> jews of the world definitely and surely intelligent that is why they ruling america, europe and the worlddd... no doubt..
> 
> *For Iraq war*
> 
> Saddam was a crazy basterd,,,but he wasn't kiled by americans just because he killed Kurds,, he didnt even attacked america nor he had a WMDS...He was Slaughtered due to the facts that he wanted to trade their oil companies with all states in EURO which results america to be collapsed economicalyy..Remember trade in oil Is in $$
> So it definitely matters for CIA and offcourse Zionists who ruled america for the past centuries...
> Iranian govt doing great for their peolple you are living in world where CNN,BBC,Fox and other biased and calculated and Drivened by CIA media groups shows you,,,wake up...I dont know when these americans will awake,,time will near in th future...
> 
> the above is my previous post


If you take the Kurdish killings, then by now North Korea should be been invaded clean of all possible essence of Kim Jong Il. The infamous Camp 22 is enough reason for its regime to be toppled alongside the few North Koreans who manage to escape that prison-country.


And by the way, Saddam was hanged; not slaughtered. Oil is not a possible reason, but this has something to do with maintaining military presence in the region which is getting tough for Pentagon.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mikkix

Parashuram1 said:


> If you take the Kurdish killings, then by now North Korea should be been invaded clean of all possible essence of Kim Jong Il. The infamous Camp 22 is enough reason for its regime to be toppled alongside the few North Koreans who manage to escape that prison-country.
> 
> 
> And by the way, Saddam was hanged; not slaughtered. Oil is not a possible reason, but this has something to do with maintaining military presence in the region which is getting tough for Pentagon.



Yes he was hanged...
Iraq war is for what???
Oil=no,,,trade in euro=no,,,?????


----------



## Parashuram1

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Everbody that you disagee with or has a differant opinion is not necessarly Jewish or from India.
> 
> Another interesting article on the subject.
> VDARE.com: 09/26/07 - Indians Arent That Intelligent (On Average)


It is something that most members find it difficult to understand because of some sort of obsession. I was branded an Indian multiple times as well because of my name (which is Sanskrit owing to my religious beliefs). You'll get used to it. 

And by the way, you'd be surprised about that study being pretty inaccurate. I have personally interacted with plenty of Indians from the Tamil community (they form the bulk of Indian immigrants to my country) and they are exceptionally brilliant in their fields of profession or education. From being some of the highest scoring in academics in Western world to conducting business with them, they are very prominent in taking up any good opportunity offered.

I recommend you to come to Switzerland and see for yourself.


----------



## Parashuram1

mikkix said:


> Yes he was hanged...
> Iraq war is for what???
> Oil=no,,,trade in euro=no,,,?????


Strategic base in the middle east perhaps. That's the only other possibility since no conflict exists without seeing benefits-- mutual or singular.


----------



## mikkix

Parashuram1 said:


> Strategic base in the middle east perhaps. That's the only other possibility since no conflict exists without seeing benefits-- mutual or singular.



Atleast you agree that the war has no links with WMDs, LADEN and DEMOCRACY...
War is for strategic bases, OIL and Economy and greater ISRAEL..

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## Ras

mikkix said:


> Atleast you agree that the war has no links with WMDs, LADEN and DEMOCRACY...
> War is for strategic bases, OIL and Economy and greater ISRAEL..



What greater Israel?...the Jewish population inside current Israel is falling rapidly is currently only at 80% with around 16% Muslim minority. With a "greater Israel" the Jewish population will become a minority.


----------



## SpArK

mikkix said:


> Yes he was hanged...
> Iraq war is for what???
> *Oil=no*,,,trade in euro=no,,,?????




"Iraq holds more than 112 billion barrels of oil - the world's second largest *proven reserves*. Iraq also contains 110 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, and is a focal point for regional and international security issues."

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## mikkix

BENNY said:


> "Iraq holds more than 112 billion barrels of oil - the world's second largest *proven reserves*. Iraq also contains 110 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, and is a focal point for regional and international security issues."



Thats my point


----------



## CAPTAIN AMERICA

mikkix said:


> Thats my point




Amount of U.S. oil consumption that comes from U.S. production: 7.3 mbd, or 42 percent. We produce fifty percent more oil than Iraq and Kuwait, almost as much oil as Saudi Arabia and the Emirates

Amount of U.S. oil consumption that comes from the Middle East: 2 mbd -- 12 percent, only three percent from Iraq and Kuwait. The rest of our imported oil comes from places like Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Nigeria, Algeria, Ecuador, and England.

Oil is a commodity like wheat, the USA does not need to go to war to get 13 percent of its oil from the middle east.

You people that think the USA went to war over oil in Iraq are just not right bright.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Amount of U.S. oil consumption that comes from the Middle East: 2 mbd -- 12 percent, only three percent from Iraq and Kuwait. The rest of our imported oil comes from places like Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Nigeria, Algeria, Ecuador, and England



roughly 1,128,000mbd alone are imported from KSA according to 2009 YTD statistics.


Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries



> Oil is a commodity like wheat, the USA does not need to go to war to get 13 percent of its oil from the middle east.



it isnt just about oil. It's also about influence and leverage over countries.



> You people that think the USA went to war over oil in Iraq are just not right bright.



you were duped into thinking that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and that they were responsible for 9/11 

What to make of the situation, 7 years later? What did you accomplish?

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## mughaljee

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> The intelligence of the Ashkenazi Jews has been the subject of study and speculation within the fields of psychometry and evolutionary biology. Some psychometric studies have reported generally higher IQ's among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.
> 
> One highly publicised proposal by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy and Henry Harpending puts the psychometric findings into an evolutionary perspective, suggesting that the Ashkenazi collective history of segregation and persecution in medieval Europe could have prompted higher intelligence to emerge as a result of natural selection.
> 
> Certain psychometric studies have found that people who identified themselves as Jewish scored higher than average on various tests,[2][8] with estimates ranging from 3 to 12 points above the mean of other Caucasians (non-Jews), whose score is generally normalized to 100. These studies (see references) also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical performance; spatial and visual-perceptual performance is average. The authors argue that these finding are supported by Ashkenazi academic achievement, noting that while, for example, in the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent less than 2% of the population, they have won 27% of the US Nobel Prizes in science.[2]
> Ashkenazi intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> and I might point out the majority of the worlds chess championships.
> 
> Im curious. What do you think the average intelligence might be of the following groups:
> 
> Jews in Israel of European origin (Ash/Seph or other)
> Mizrahi Jews
> Palestinian Arabs
> 
> ARABS:
> 
> Lets compare them to other Arab states. Egypt is 83. Lebanon is 86. Morocco is 85. Iraq is 87. Qatar is 78. That seems to be the Arab range: 78-87. I havent seen any Arab countries score in the 90s and only Qatar is in the 70s. The average of the 5 Arab countries listed by IQ and the Wealth of Nations is 83.8, so the Palestinians are probably around 85. Whether its a couple points more or less is irrelevant, just a margin of error, and at the same time, I doubt that they are above 90 because no other Arab country is.
> 
> ASHKENAZIM
> 
> The pure-blooded Ashkenazim score probably the same as they do elsewhere 112-115.
> 
> Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Arab IQ in Israel Ethnic Genome Project
> 
> No wonder you dont like the Jews Genes



My dear deer USA
All the conflict in the world specially Palestine the Devil is USA.
and
You have your thoughts and i have mine & i am still stand where i was at last position.

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## mughaljee

Junaid375 said:


> brother captain america, you dont have to reply to every thing said against jews. what Mughaljee has said was a totally wrong and by replying to his rant you are going no where either..
> 
> please keep this blood-line, gene pool crap to yourself (in order to claim racial supremacy or something).
> 
> be constructive and contribute something to this forum..
> your response is as stupid as mughaljee's statement
> stick to topic please.


So Mr Junaid what you think about yourself, are you genius ?
some kind of professor , ethical lecturer, 
exchanging the words? what you said 2 times check and then post.
regards


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## Junaid375

*


mughaljee said:



If someone ,Genes, should be permanently vanished from earth. Those are Jews, and it will happened

Click to expand...

*


mughaljee said:


> So Mr Junaid what you think about yourself, are you genius ?
> some kind of professor , ethical lecturer,
> exchanging the words? what you said 2 times check and then post.
> regards



Do you want to eliminate every Jew ? how old are you ?
are you a Muslim ? if you are then, is this the kind of behavior we should expect from a Muslim ? please don't be a disgrace to Muslims all over the world, by posting statements like this on a global forum.

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## mughaljee

Junaid375 said:


> *
> 
> Do you want to eliminate every Jew ? how old are you ?
> are you a Muslim ? if you are then, is this the kind of behavior we should expect from a Muslim ? please don't be a disgrace to Muslims all over the world, by posting statements like this on a global forum.*


*

Ok Mr Old Man, 
You think you are Muslims none other? 
Recent Freedom Fortila, and you see what Israel did ?
Whole European said, the Ghaza is prison and peoples are dying.,
and you are trying to say me , patient man patient.
And one thing more man,
I know whole muslims world leaders has no issue with Isreal, but Muslims community have.
And by the way , 
This is not true if you are old man you have much knowledge and sencivity rather then young one's ?

I like those palestinians who secrify their lives to take revange against Joint Devil. 
Heil Hitler" salute




*


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> roughly 1,128,000mbd alone are imported from KSA according to 2009 YTD statistics.
> 
> 
> Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries
> 
> 
> 
> it isnt just about oil. It's also about influence and leverage over countries.
> 
> you were duped into thinking that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and that they were responsible for 9/11
> 
> What to make of the situation, 7 years later? What did you accomplish?



Well for one thing Saddam was hung a his Sons are dead and his goverment is out of power thats more then Iran could do in 8 and half years and at the cost of 800,000 dead


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

Stealth said:


> Isreal tried to massive strike over KAHUTA
> Isreal funding Terrorist from Afghanistan
> Isreal doing massive damage to Pakistan how (ZIONIST ACTIVE LOBBY IN US GOVT)
> 
> Are you guyz idiot ????
> 
> Isreal say doosti karkay apnay paoon pe eek aur kulhari maarni hey ???



In the last 7 years terrorism has killed over 25,000 people in Pakistan, how many has Israel killed?


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## mughaljee

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> In the last 7 years terrorism has killed over 25,000 people in Pakistan, how many has Israel killed?


*Just with few changes.
how many Palestinians killed by Israel ? In the last 7 years terrorism. *


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

mughaljee said:


> *Just with few changes.
> how many Palestinians killed by Israel ? In the last 7 years terrorism. *



At least 6,348 Palestinians and 1,072 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000. Taliban are doing a lot better job of killing people then the Israelis.


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## mughaljee

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> At least 6,348 Palestinians and 1,072 Israelis
> have been killed since September 29, 2000. Taliban are doing a lot better job of killing people then the Israelis.


*1,072 Israelis*
Source Please about above statement.


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## ARSENAL6

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> At least 6,348 Palestinians and 1,072 Israelis
> have been killed since September 29, 2000. Taliban are doing a lot better job of killing people then the Israelis.



Yeah thats right Talibans are good at killing American soilders period.

Shouldn't be in their country, forcing Captilism and stealing thier minerals. THe Muslim people of Afganistan were living in Freedom being Muslim and in peace.
Viva la of the Muslim of Afganistan

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## ARSENAL6

Ras said:


> What greater Israel?...the Jewish population inside current Israel is falling rapidly is currently only at 80% with around 16% Muslim minority. With a "greater Israel" the Jewish population will become a minority.



*GREATER ISRAEL:*

Israel | Greater Israel: What does it really mean?


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## RameeX Xaved

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> At least 6,348 Palestinians and 1,072 Israelis
> have been killed since September 29, 2000. Taliban are doing a lot better job of killing people then the Israelis.



ridiculous figures. 
talibans have a right to kill american soldiers because its their land and americans are their illegaly. israel has got NO right to kill palestines because its not israel's land.

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## intelarpit

RameeX Xaved said:


> ridiculous figures.
> *talibans have a right to kill american soldiers because its their land* and americans are their illegaly. israel has got NO right to kill palestines because its not israel's land.



Talking about Pakistan aur Afghanistan??


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## RameeX Xaved

Afghanistan


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

ARSENAL6 said:


> Yeah thats right Talibans are good at killing American soilders period.
> 
> Shouldn't be in their country, forcing Captilism and stealing thier minerals. THe Muslim people of Afganistan were living in Freedom being Muslim and in peace.
> Viva la of the Muslim of Afganistan



Murdering 3000 american civilians in cold blood on 911 is not my idea of peace and looks like they are better at murdering Pakistinis since they have murdered more then 25,000 in the past seven years.


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## Super Falcon

welll and how many american have murdered in revenge afghanis and why you are still their you revenge has been taken and what did us did to stop israel after being a world ro as a contractor of peace what did usa did to stop israel stop killing child and innocent u only encouraged them if americans seriously wants peace they have to stop israel why u scare of them what they can do to you

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## ARSENAL6

Super Falcon said:


> welll and how many american have murdered in revenge afghanis and why you are still their you revenge has been taken and what did us did to stop israel after being a world ro as a contractor of peace what did usa did to stop israel stop killing child and innocent u only encouraged them if americans seriously wants peace they have to stop israel why u scare of them what they can do to you



Well said !



CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Murdering 3000 american civilians in cold blood on 911 is not my idea of peace and looks like they are better at murdering Pakistinis since they have murdered more then 25,000 in the past seven years.



Exactly these people are well known in the US infact they are running the place
NeoCOns, Zionist. ANd you're right it aint no conspiracy ITS WELL KNOWN FACT THAT 9/11 IS AN INSIDE JOB. GET OVER IT !


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## ARSENAL6

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> ARABS:
> 
> Lets compare them to other Arab states. Egypt is 83. Lebanon is 86. Morocco is 85. Iraq is 87. Qatar is 78. That seems to be the Arab range: 78-87. I havent seen any Arab countries score in the 90s and only Qatar is in the 70s. The average of the 5 Arab countries listed by IQ and the Wealth of Nations is 83.8, so the Palestinians are probably around 85. Whether its a couple points more or less is irrelevant, just a margin of error, and at the same time, I doubt that they are above 90 because no other Arab country is.
> 
> ASHKENAZIM
> 
> The pure-blooded Ashkenazim score probably the same as they do elsewhere 112-115.
> 
> Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Arab IQ in Israel Ethnic Genome Project
> 
> No wonder you dont like the Jews Genes





Typical Nazi responce
Its no wonder you enjoy killing Muslims dance around 50,000 Iraqi chidren deaths done by the US.


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## mikkix

ARSENAL6 said:


> *GREATER ISRAEL:*
> 
> Israel | Greater Israel: What does it really mean?



Greater Israel= Israel will stretched its boundary from River Nile to West of Saudia and from Syria to Red sea including Jordan Iraq and Western part of iran a little bit.....


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## RameeX Xaved

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Murdering 3000 american civilians in cold blood on 911 is not my idea of peace and looks like they are better at murdering Pakistinis since they have murdered more then 25,000 in the past seven years.



dont be such a pathetic hypocrite. the world knows who actually was behind 911 and that US just needed an excuse or rather a ticket to enter in afghanistan and iraq to take over the minerals and oil fields and denuclearise pakistan. we all know zionists control america, your president cant even fart without the permission of of the israeli lobby in washington. american people hate israelis as much as we do, but they are helpless just like we are from our government. america has already given a worse name amongst muslim nations because of working on the zionists agenda of killing millions of muslims.

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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

RameeX Xaved said:


> dont be such a pathetic hypocrite. the world knows who actually was behind 911 and that US just needed an excuse or rather a ticket to enter in afghanistan and iraq to take over the minerals and oil fields and denuclearise pakistan. we all know zionists control america, your president cant even fart without the permission of of the israeli lobby in washington. american people hate israelis as much as we do, but they are helpless just like we are from our government. america has already given a worse name amongst muslim nations because of working on the zionists agenda of killing millions of muslims.



Comments like yours allways reminds me of President Musharraf speech where he said "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," you all should have kept President Musharraf hes only one in Pakistan with the brains and guts to tell you all how things really are.

Bottom line if 911 had not happened would not be there. If we wanted natural resources would have just taken Saudia Arabia.


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## Rumporum

Well guys my opinion and must say that this has changed over time wasn't the same earlier.

1st enough is enough and we all know that there must be a two state solution and "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" and we for all the people should have realised this especially since this is going on from 1948. Contrary to popular rhetoric raised by various political interests/politicians at home now one is going to push Israel in the sea conventionally even if they want to. Example here is Mr. Lieberman and company

2-ndly also there is a large section of Israeli people/society who are really tired of this and want peace as we have brought on others and ourselves countless miseries. There is strong internal opposition to what the Govt. does and behaves for a balanced view check the haaretz website. There are many people who are critical of the Government and system as currently the way things have evolved over the past years there is a really a very thin line that separates or distinguishable between apartheid South Africa and Israel

3-rd Unless we wake up and move there will be no solution and when one lives in Europe or anywhere else one realizes how things are not normal as one takes as normal at home. The internal idiotic polices vis a vis settlers etc...etc.... is coming under considerable fire at home.

Lastly having said this there is no easy way out what Israel cannot do is compromise on security and in order to ensure security etc....one needs to talk and compromise as we have all seen that nothing else works. Having said this one needs to know how things are warped and pulled or put out of context one needs to understand the domestic political situation which cant be explained here.

Bottom line is Rabin started this path and then after him we have slowly but surely gone...back to square one. In my opinion in the next 12 to 24 months we should some serious progress in peace and probably if that succeeds then 10 years after that relations with Pakistan, Malaysia, etc.. as thanks to the current situation even the only consulate in Middle east Qatar (apart from Jordan and Egypt) is closed since some time now.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Rumporum, thanks for your honest and well-written post. I agree with pretty much everything you have said. I don't condone some things that israel has done, same way i dont condone rocket attacks on your civilians. It's been tit-for-tat violence for over 60 years now, and it isnt sustainable at all.


----------



## Parashuram1

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Rumporum, thanks for your honest and well-written post. I agree with pretty much everything you have said. I don't condone some things that israel has done, same way i dont condone rocket attacks on your civilians. It's been tit-for-tat violence for over 60 years now, and it isnt sustainable at all.


Goodness! You are the first perhaps Pakistani on this forum who agrees the Israeli issue to be a bi-lateral and therefore internal matter being a game of tit-for-tat. 

Now perhaps the discussion can move beyond "common religion","brotherhood", "nazi terrorists", "arrival of the Caliphate" and God knows what all threads were opened just because of these two words "Pakistan and Israel.


----------



## Imran Khan

Rumporum said:


> Well guys my opinion and must say that this has changed over time wasn't the same earlier.
> 
> 1st enough is enough and we all know that there must be a two state solution and "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" and we for all the people should have realised this especially since this is going on from 1948. Contrary to popular rhetoric raised by various political interests/politicians at home now one is going to push Israel in the sea conventionally even if they want to. Example here is Mr. Lieberman and company
> 
> 2-ndly also there is a large section of Israeli people/society who are really tired of this and want peace as we have brought on others and ourselves countless miseries. There is strong internal opposition to what the Govt. does and behaves for a balanced view check the haaretz website. There are many people who are critical of the Government and system as currently the way things have evolved over the past years there is a really a very thin line that separates or distinguishable between apartheid South Africa and Israel
> 
> 3-rd Unless we wake up and move there will be no solution and when one lives in Europe or anywhere else one realizes how things are not normal as one takes as normal at home. The internal idiotic polices vis a vis settlers etc...etc.... is coming under considerable fire at home.
> 
> Lastly having said this there is no easy way out what Israel cannot do is compromise on security and in order to ensure security etc....one needs to talk and compromise as we have all seen that nothing else works. Having said this one needs to know how things are warped and pulled or put out of context one needs to understand the domestic political situation which cant be explained here.
> 
> Bottom line is Rabin started this path and then after him we have slowly but surely gone...back to square one. In my opinion in the next 12 to 24 months we should some serious progress in peace and probably if that succeeds then 10 years after that relations with Pakistan, Malaysia, etc.. as thanks to the current situation even the only consulate in Middle east Qatar (apart from Jordan and Egypt) is closed since some time now.



now please push your gov to do it its enugh blood and tears make 2 states and let enjoy both


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Parashuram1 said:


> Goodness! You are the first perhaps Pakistani on this forum who agrees the Israeli issue to be a bi-lateral and therefore internal matter being a game of tit-for-tat.
> 
> Now perhaps the discussion can move beyond "common religion","brotherhood", "nazi terrorists", "arrival of the Caliphate" and God knows what all threads were opened just because of these two words "Pakistan and Israel.



???????


a.) no, i'm not

b.) it is bi-lateral, like most conflicts in the world

c.) global Muslim brotherhood is an ideal we strive to realize and implement; in fact, I would like to see Muslims as united and strong as the Jews are......but it will take time for us all to be on the same page, given the large (and growing) numbers



my first priority is Pakistan. It doesnt mean I will close my eyes to the atrocities being committed in the world --especially those against Palestinians. Doesnt mean i wont show solidarity towards them. They are the ones in dire need of help and attention, not the israilys

I like to think of myself as a multi-tasker

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## MastanKhan

Rameez Usmani said:


> Lets discuss the capabilities of Pakistani forces in comparison with Israeli forces.
> 
> Some sources told me that Pakistan has a missile which can directly hit Israel. Is it right ?....



Hi,

Posters must do somekind of research on their own at first and must have some kind of input when they start a thread.

Have you thought about the WHAT AFTER THE MISSILE LAUNCH scenario.

The pakistani missile could possibly be taken out by their star wars capability---if not then somewhere over one of our dear neighbouring arab nations.

Before launching any missile at israel, you would need to know if the israelis are capable of launching nyclear cruise missiles from their subs in the arabian sea----ie---right in front of our faces.

The reaction from the israelis will be swift, hard and decimating. The israelis will strike from their subs based in the arabian sea---if these missiles are nuc tipped----then pak is totally history---otherwise---they will take out the indutrial complex at karachi---all communication networks---roads---air and electronics will be destroyed by the israeli submarine missile strikes.

Secondly the u s of a will compliment the israeli retaliatory strike----.

Thirdly---indioa would take the oppurtunity of running over pakistan to just basically finish off the source and bone of all contentions.

Instead of thinking of ways to kill others---we need to find ways to get out of the muck that we are stuck in.

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## Rumporum

Imran Khan said:


> now please push your gov to do it its enugh blood and tears make 2 states and let enjoy both



We are check this Safe Passage and also Gisha Site


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## Parashuram1

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ???????
> 
> 
> a.) no, i'm not
> 
> b.) it is bi-lateral, like most conflicts in the world
> 
> c.) global Muslim brotherhood is an ideal we strive to realize and implement; in fact, I would like to see Muslims as united and strong as the Jews are......but it will take time for us all to be on the same page, given the large (and growing) numbers
> 
> 
> 
> my first priority is Pakistan. It doesnt mean I will close my eyes to the atrocities being committed in the world --especially those against Palestinians. Doesnt mean i wont show solidarity towards them. They are the ones in dire need of help and attention, not the israilys
> 
> I like to think of myself as a multi-tasker


Jews are spread over a much lesser set of ethnicities than your faith is and apart from that you are more than a billion. So naturally it is hard to speak in the same voice. 

Besides, today's countries are run by economics and realpolitik unlike centuries ago where religion dictated state affairs. The kind of "unity" you are expecting cannot happen with 56 countries operating on different parameters in different conditions. 

Even the European Union isn't that United most of the time.

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## LeeRain

Who have allowed israelis on PAKISTAN DEFENCE!
ISRALIS have nothing to do their!


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## Chaluboy

Parashuram1 said:


> Jews are spread over a much lesser set of ethnicities than your faith is and apart from that you are more than a billion. So naturally it is hard to speak in the same voice.
> 
> Besides, today's countries are run by economics and realpolitik unlike centuries ago where religion dictated state affairs. The kind of "unity" you are expecting cannot happen with 56 countries operating on different parameters in different conditions.
> 
> Even the European Union isn't that United most of the time.



good point Parashuram1

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Parashuram1 said:


> Jews are spread over a much lesser set of ethnicities than your faith is and apart from that you are more than a billion. So naturally it is hard to speak in the same voice.



but i never said ''Muslim'' is a nationality



> Besides, today's countries are run by economics and realpolitik unlike centuries ago where religion dictated state affairs. The kind of "unity" you are expecting cannot happen with 56 countries operating on different parameters in different conditions.



there is truth in this. Different parameters and different geo-politics. But it has been a policy of the west to favour one or two or three over others in the interests of promoting divide

good examples of that: 

Lebanon/Syria. Saudi Arabia/Iran. 




> Even the European Union isn't that United most of the time.



the EU may not even exist in 10-15 years. Nationalism seems to be rising in Europe, and the Greece situation has left many disillusioned.


this is one reason, perhaps, why Turkiye is laughing at the EU now and looking towards the ''Orient''


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## Abu Zolfiqar

LeeRain said:


> Who have allowed israelis on PAKISTAN DEFENCE!
> ISRALIS have nothing to do their!



well if we can allow hindustanys on here (I think there are way too many to begin with) --- i dont see why we cant allow israily

i seldom agree with them, but no harm to get their 'perspective'

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## Parashuram1

> but i never said ''Muslim'' is a nationality



The concept of an Islamic country still holds ground in the hearts of Pakistanis isn't it? Despite ethnic differences, these countries governed by principles of your religion still continue to stand united against if/any policies that might have even the slightest tinge of Islamic cultural/religious significance, isn't it?




> But it has been a policy of the west to favour one or two or three over others in the interests of promoting divide
> 
> good examples of that:
> 
> Lebanon/Syria. Saudi Arabia/Iran.



Don' blame the West for your own sectarian divides. Saudi and Iran operate on the basis of two different sects of your religion and therefore have slight difference that neither group is broad-minded enough to accept as a branch of the main faith, leading to hostilities and disunity. The cause of this: Extreme rigidity between both countries and their branches of your faith, not us of Western world .

During the Cold War, Saudi Arabia and Pehlavi's Iran were both friends to United States. In fact, it was the clerical regime of Iran that chose to break itself away from United States sponsored CENTO. How is West to be blamed for it?




> the EU may not even exist in 10-15 years. Nationalism seems to be rising in Europe, and the Greece situation has left many disillusioned.
> 
> this is one reason, perhaps, why Turkiye is laughing at the EU now and looking towards the ''Orient''



Technically, I never expected the Union to succeed economically simply because in a Union, in my perspective it has to be one country with one government and one language agreeable to all for inter-ethnic communication while freely maintaining their respective national-state languages. For instance, European Union could have been one country as Europe with the common EU flag and the national capital could have been a country's state that is agreeable to all the members, with France, Germany, Italy etc as provinces of this "country".

That perhaps could have brought more appreciation of each other among European countries and a better control of all members so as to avoid what happened to Greece.

Just as your hypothetically predicted the collapse of the Union, in the same fashion did the Islamic Ottoman Empire collapse. There were too many different states and each had different ethnicity to the other. Religion especially when it is rigid ends up in a situation where one group might feel discriminated against the other even though they might not express it. 

Therefore, when the Europeans approached certain states of the Ottoman Empire, they accepted them instead of continued alignment to the Caliphate.

Nations have formed and broken and existed and vanished; simply because people refuse to accept others' perspective as an alternative correctness.

If there was that level of flexibility, the whole world could have existed as one nation.


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## mughaljee

Parashuram1 
Forum thread is "Pakistan and Israel"
Not Pakistan & Muslims Countries.


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## proud007

jokes on page 43


----------



## Rumporum

faisaljaffery said:


> Israil's intelligence agency Mosad along with Indian Raw are operating training centers in Afghanistan and they are sending suicide bombers to Pakistan to destablize our country. India and Israil had joint plans to declare the Pakistan as a failed state. but thanks God that we have a Pakistan Army which fought the war on westren borders and cleared these areas from Indian supported millitants.



U really serious....or is this a joke? This is crap...even India doesn't want to de-stabilise Pakistan forget Israel. Do you think they want a Taliban regime next door?

One the other hand people...seriously wake up we don't care about Pakistan.. majority of the people in Israel don't even know where Pakistan is except that its somewhere near India.

Peace

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## mughaljee

Rumporum said:


> majority of the people in Israel don't even know where Pakistan is except that its somewhere near India.
> Peace


Do you know , why we (Pakistan & Whole Muslim Community) know Israel ?
Because occupied land of palestine.


----------



## Rumporum

mughaljee said:


> Do you know , why we (Pakistan & Whole Muslim Community) know Israel ?
> Because occupied land of palestine.



My views on how the future should looks like is clear on the Israel-Palestine issue i.e. there must be a 2 state solution and its inevitable sooner or later. 

What I was trying to say that I have come across a lot of cooked up stories that RAW/CIA/Mossad trying to destabilise Pakistan etc....last one I came across was Israeli agents being invited to Indian Embassy or Ambassador in Kabul for media blitz against Pakistan etc.....etc. These are all lies, conspiracy theories started by who knows....and I can tell you that Israel has no interest in Pakistan whatsoever, and we are certainly not training any Taliban, nor are we supporting the Taliban now and have no intention to do so all so in the future.


PS: there is no such thing such as Baluchistan Liberation Army or Fronts office in Tel Aviv either.

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## Bhim

Parashuram1 said:


> Jews are spread over a much lesser set of ethnicities than your faith is and apart from that you are more than a billion. So naturally it is hard to speak in the same voice.
> 
> Besides, today's countries are run by economics and realpolitik unlike centuries ago where religion dictated state affairs. The kind of "unity" you are expecting cannot happen with 56 countries operating on different parameters in different conditions.
> 
> Even the European Union isn't that United most of the time.



You are absolutely correct on this point. The unions and groups are being made on economical criteria, look at G8 or G20 summit.
They are a conglomerate of all ethnicities and religions, they can turn opinion, they are decision makers. Don't you think its high time you stop thinking purely on religion and get on more with nation building and development? Don't you people think Pakistan should also have been part of that group? An unstable Pakistan is unstable region, and in turn an unstable world.

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## Bhim

proud007 said:


> jokes on page 43



Thanks for the link.

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## javaman

Pakistanarmyboy said:


> Attention Everybody !
> 
> I have read and heard so many times from some of my internet friends, Blog writers, defence analyst that there will be attack on Pakistan from USA, Israel & India in September 2010 .... so is that true?
> 
> If you will ask for written proof I will provide you one. I must want to confirm that there will be sudden attack on Pakistan from these countries USA, Israel & India?
> 
> You people have no idea how much I love my country, If I was an Atomic Bomb I drop myself on to Israel or USA or India ......
> 
> Please e-mail me your right information about this question and make me satisfy. My e-mail is: Pakistanarmyboy@hotmail.com
> 
> Thanks Brothers !


one atom bomb on 3 countries,there will be no such attack,plz leave those conspiracy theories which daily take birth in those analysts mind.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^^^

pure speculation. Be careful about who you befriend or get your info from 

just for entertainment purposes, post a link or two from one of these blogs

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## Devil Soul

Rumporum said:


> One the other hand people...seriously wake up we don't care about Pakistan.. majority of the people in Israel don't even know where Pakistan is except that its somewhere near India.
> Peace



Its really hard to believe that they don't know about 1 & only Muslim country with nuclear assets/weapons .....

BTW u people are way to busy planning on how to decor the homes of Palestinians once u occupy them and erect barriers around them ...


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## uncleponty

Rumporum said:


> U really serious....or is this a joke? This is crap...even India doesn't want to de-stabilise Pakistan forget Israel. Do you think they want a Taliban regime next door?
> 
> One the other hand people...seriously wake up we don't care about Pakistan.. majority of the people in Israel don't even know where Pakistan is except that its somewhere near India.
> 
> Peace



Perfectly said,
We all Indians never ever think to de-stabilise Pakistan,
but we don't like the wish of some Pakistanis to defeat India and rule over us, simply not.


----------



## uncleponty

Pakistanarmyboy said:


> Attention Everybody !
> 
> I have read and heard so many times from some of my internet friends, Blog writers, defence analyst that there will be attack on Pakistan from USA, Israel & India in September 2010 .... so is that true?
> 
> If you will ask for written proof I will provide you one. I must want to confirm that there will be sudden attack on Pakistan from these countries USA, Israel & India?
> 
> You people have no idea how much I love my country, If I was an Atomic Bomb I drop myself on to Israel or USA or India ......
> 
> Please e-mail me your right information about this question and make me satisfy. My e-mail is: Pakistanarmyboy@hotmail.com
> 
> Thanks Brothers !



Good Joke


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## Rumporum

Devil Soul said:


> Its really hard to believe that they don't know about 1 & only Muslim country with nuclear assets/weapons .....
> 
> BTW u people are way to busy planning on how to decor the homes of Palestinians once u occupy them and erect barriers around them ...



Your right we are not preoccupied with Pakistan despite that its a Muslim country with nuclear bomb and who thinks or tries to portray itself as the leader of the Muslim Ummah.. and nor does it appear on travel brochures as a place to visit for holidays. Also we don't follow on developments in Pakistan unless stumbled upon on the TV such as CNN...last one was the Facebook and Google ban for example

as for the second comment Its not worth commenting on just a comment however is get your facts straight.


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## khurasaan1

Quraan - Aal-e-Imran, verse No. 148-149.
&#1605;&#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;! &#1575;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1575;&#1601;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746; &#1578;&#1608; &#1608;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1657;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1572;&#1722; &#1662;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585; (&#1605;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585 &#1583;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1576;&#1681;&#1746; &#1582;&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1681; &#1580;&#1575;&#1572; &#1711;&#1746; (&#65279;&#1777;&#1780;&#1785;&#65279 (&#1740;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722 &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578;&#1585; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746;


1000% accurate ....we dont need friendship will those who are enemies of allah....either they accept allah and his rasool kareem(Mohammad) PBUH and become muslim(good human) and leave all evils stuff...otherwise wait what allah is going to do with them(burn them in the hell) along with their friends;who betray allah to join them.

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## khurasaan1

Originally Posted by Pakistanarmyboy View Post
Attention Everybody !

I have read and heard so many times from some of my internet friends, Blog writers, defence analyst that there will be attack on Pakistan from USA, Israel & India in September 2010 .... so is that true?

If you will ask for written proof I will provide you one. I must want to confirm that there will be sudden attack on Pakistan from these countries USA, Israel & India?

You people have no idea how much I love my country, If I was an Atomic Bomb I drop myself on to Israel or USA or India ......

Please e-mail me your right information about this question and make me satisfy. My e-mail is: Pakistanarmyboy@hotmail.com

Thanks Brothers !

To tell you the truth ...you got right information about the above question. they are planning to destroy pakistan but they got great defeat in afghanistan with the grace of allah that they have to think 100 times in order to do any mess with pakistan...but really they are trying their best to do any big disaster in pakistan on the other hand their is allah's sword hanging on their neck too ...which will kill them as soon as they will try to do any evil stuff...and you will see it very soon inshallah... just keep patience , and istikaamat...and watch the game and enjoy with alhamdolillah.cuz angels are already playing their game and the evil is gone crazy....


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## Calculator

Are pak and israel friends??


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## Devil Soul

Rumporum said:


> Your right we are not preoccupied with Pakistan despite that its a Muslim country with nuclear bomb and who thinks or tries to portray itself as the leader of the Muslim Ummah.. and nor does it appear on travel brochures as a place to visit for holidays. Also we don't follow on developments in Pakistan unless stumbled upon on the TV such as CNN...last one was the Facebook and Google ban for example
> 
> as for the second comment Its not worth commenting on just a comment however is get your facts straight.



Do u think we are bothered if we are not appearing on travel guides avail in israel???  , infact most of the muslim countries dont appear in brochures/travel guides avail in israel, so we are pretty much not bothered... 

My friend u people need to get ur facts rite, bcoz every one knows that ur erecting barriers and Settlers are Occupying Palestinian Home


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## Devil Soul




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## Bhim

khurasaan1 said:


> Originally Posted by Pakistanarmyboy View Post
> Attention Everybody !
> 
> I have read and heard so many times from some of my internet friends, Blog writers, defence analyst that there will be attack on Pakistan from USA, Israel & India in September 2010 .... so is that true?
> 
> If you will ask for written proof I will provide you one. I must want to confirm that there will be sudden attack on Pakistan from these countries USA, Israel & India?
> 
> You people have no idea how much I love my country, If I was an Atomic Bomb I drop myself on to Israel or USA or India ......
> 
> Please e-mail me your right information about this question and make me satisfy. My e-mail is: Pakistanarmyboy@hotmail.com
> 
> Thanks Brothers !
> 
> To tell you the truth ...you got right information about the above question. they are planning to destroy pakistan but they got great defeat in afghanistan with the grace of allah that they have to think 100 times in order to do any mess with pakistan...but really they are trying their best to do any big disaster in pakistan on the other hand their is allah's sword hanging on their neck too ...which will kill them as soon as they will try to do any evil stuff...and you will see it very soon inshallah... just keep patience , and istikaamat...and watch the game and enjoy with alhamdolillah.cuz angels are already playing their game and the evil is gone crazy....





Boy-o-Boy, you guys are always ready for war.
Hey armyboy, I think 3 against one is a big injustice (Bahut beinsaafi hai re Kaalia), so why don't you add 2 more to your list., then it will be 3 hum aur 3 tum, haan ab theek hai.


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## FreekiN

Israel can't fight Pakistan, they would never be able to get their men there, unless of course they ask India to help them.

If anything, it would be restricted to naval and aerial warfare and some tactical insertions here and there. 

Due to Pakistan's quantity and Israels quality, it would probably end in a stalemate. Probably. Not much of an expert on military tech, but by simply referencing to what they both and have-not have, that is what we can assume.




Devil Soul said:


> YouTube - Muslims Evicted From Their Homes For Jewish Settlers
> 
> http://ww.youtube.com/watch?v=eufahQKPkks



That all is hunkey-dorey, but take a look at the title of the thread. Let's restrict ourselves to just that.


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## Kompromat

I cant believe this stupid thread is still open.


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## Rumporum

Devil Soul said:


> Do u think we are bothered if we are not appearing on travel guides avail in israel???  , infact most of the muslim countries dont appear in brochures/travel guides avail in israel, so we are pretty much not bothered...
> 
> My friend u people need to get ur facts rite, bcoz every one knows that ur erecting barriers and Settlers are Occupying Palestinian Home
> 
> YouTube - Jewish Settlers Occupy Palestinian Home



Look there are many people in Israel, Israeli who are against this forced removal, this normally happens after a legal verdict ...its another long story there how and why ( some other time). Anyways many of the affected Palestinians are supported financially by Israeli NGO.... as well. There are some problem areas or contentions of conflict however Israel does have a substantial Arab Israeli population as well (not in the Gaza and West Bank) who are quite content in living in Israel.






PS: Did you also notice your Video is from Al-Jazeera which BTW is from Qatar and are allowed to freely broadcast as well

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## hardtarget

israil is our enemy


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## S_O_C_O_M

FreekiN said:


> Israel can't fight Pakistan, they would never be able to get their men there, unless of course they ask India to help them.
> 
> If anything, it would be restricted to naval and aerial warfare and some tactical insertions here and there.
> 
> Due to Pakistan's quantity and Israels quality, it would probably end in a stalemate. Probably. Not much of an expert on military tech, but by simply referencing to what they both and have-not have, that is what we can assume.
> 
> That all is hunkey-dorey, but take a look at the title of the thread. Let's restrict ourselves to just that.




Really, Israel can't fight Pakistan at all. Their territory is too small. The imminent threat of a nuclear attack on Israel will keep them at bay. Pakistan can handle a couple of nukes, but 1 dropped on Tel Aviv and its game over.


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## FreekiN

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Really, Israel can't fight Pakistan at all. Their territory is too small. The imminent threat of a nuclear attack on Israel will keep them at bay. Pakistan can handle a couple of nukes, but 1 dropped on Tel Aviv and its game over.



Once they know that it's the 'end,' I have a paranoia that they'll fire every nuke they have at every major arab city in the middle east.

But thats just my paranoia. 

Anyways, Pakistans nukes wont reach them, yet. And even if they do it can get shot down over some poor arab country. i dont think pakistan would risk that. plus, their anti missile tech is far superior, one shaheen or ghauri or whatever would never be able to penetrate.

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## S_O_C_O_M

FreekiN said:


> Once they know that it's the 'end,' I have a paranoia that they'll fire every nuke they have at every major arab city in the middle east.
> 
> But thats just my paranoia.
> 
> Anyways, Pakistans nukes wont reach them, yet. And even if they do it can get shot down over some poor arab country. i dont think pakistan would risk that. plus, their anti missile tech is far superior, one shaheen or ghauri or whatever would never be able to penetrate.



The U.S. Patriot Missile defense system which Israel has cannot shoot down supersonic/hypersonic missiles, nor is there any reliable means to track, lock, engage and shoot down a supersonic/hypersonic missile.


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## praveen007

do u have supersonic/hypersonic bellestic missile? plz care to explain. ASFAIK pak dont have them. but do have BMs. thanks


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## Patriot94

Israel is slowly extending it's borders, they want Israel to have it's biblical borders; stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates.


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## indian_warrior

Bhim said:


> Boy-o-Boy, you guys are always ready for war.
> Hey armyboy, I think 3 against one is a big injustice (*Bahut beinsaafi hai re Kaalia*), so why don't you add 2 more to your list., then it will be 3 hum aur 3 tum, haan ab theek hai.


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## Rumporum

Patriot94 said:


> Israel is slowly extending it's borders, they want Israel to have it's biblical borders; stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates.



Really and who told you that?? That quack defense analyst?...whats his name...well cant remember??


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## Rumporum

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Really, Israel can't fight Pakistan at all. Their territory is too small. The imminent threat of a nuclear attack on Israel will keep them at bay. Pakistan can handle a couple of nukes, but 1 dropped on Tel Aviv and its game over.



Wow just shows how well you know your self-proclaimed enemy and also the enemies mind set. This despite that Israel is wrongly in prominence in Pakistan almost everyday as a grand conspiracy against Pakistan.


Let me refresh your G.K a little bit when it comes to Israel and how Israel behaves and will behave in terms of War of say if Pakistan drops 1 Nuclear weapon on Tel-Aviv.

1st we love life and dont want a fight...however we have something called the Masada mentality. We have our backs to the wall. That means its you or us and we have nothing to fall back to so we go down and we will try to take you down too...

1 Nuclear Bomb or more Pakistani Nuclear missiles will destroy us. We will make sure that we will take out Pakistan and some others as well when we go down. If we dont exist so dont you thats the logic.


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## Patriot94

Rumporum said:


> Really and who told you that?? That quack defense analyst?...whats his name...well cant remember??




http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/palaestine_wiped_off_the_map.jpg

The maps don't lie.


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## Rumporum

Patriot94 said:


> http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/palaestine_wiped_off_the_map.jpg
> 
> The maps don't lie.



Well can you point on that map where Nile is and also where the Euphrates is ?
Thanks


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Really, Israel can't fight Pakistan at all. Their territory is too small. The imminent threat of a nuclear attack on Israel will keep them at bay. Pakistan can handle a couple of nukes, but 1 dropped on Tel Aviv and its game over.



What makes you think it would only be a couple?


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

S_O_C_O_M said:


> The U.S. Patriot Missile defense system which Israel has cannot shoot down supersonic/hypersonic missiles, nor is there any reliable means to track, lock, engage and shoot down a supersonic/hypersonic missile.



I think there is a hypersonic cruise missile though I expect its a long way above the technology pakistan has.


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## praveen007

^^^^ thats what i asked but still waiting for reply. dont y to make such comment when they cant complete even 20&#37; of it.


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## Rumporum

hardtarget said:


> why israil murdering muslims in gaza



Israel does not murder any Muslims in Gaza.The ones who murder others including Muslims is a group called Hamas. The method they use to do this is diversified including sending Suicide bombers.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rumporum said:


> *Israel does not murder any Muslims in Gaza.*The ones who murder others including Muslims is a group called Hamas. The method they use to do this is diversified including sending Suicide bombers.



Yeah they drop bombs on themselves and use phosphorus shells to bomb their country? n starve themselves to death etc etc

Pathetic israheli


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

Rumporum said:


> Wow just shows how well you know your self-proclaimed enemy and also the enemies mind set. This despite that Israel is wrongly in prominence in Pakistan almost everyday as a grand conspiracy against Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Let me refresh your G.K a little bit when it comes to Israel and how Israel behaves and will behave in terms of War of say if Pakistan drops 1 Nuclear weapon on Tel-Aviv.
> 
> 1st we love life and dont want a fight...however we have something called the Masada mentality. We have our backs to the wall. That means its you or us and we have nothing to fall back to so we go down and we will try to take you down too...
> 
> 1 Nuclear Bomb or more Pakistani Nuclear missiles will destroy us. We will make sure that we will take out Pakistan and some others as well when we go down. If we dont exist so dont you thats the logic.



Grow up and stop posting with your emotions. I wasn't "war mongering" or "self proclaming Israel as an enemy" I was just stating cold hard facts, which apparently affected you deeply.


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## S_O_C_O_M

praveen007 said:


> ^^^^ thats what i asked but still waiting for reply. dont y to make such comment when they cant complete even 20% of it.



Do you think the Shaheen 2 travels below Mach 1? I think its time for you to crawl back into the naive little world you came out of.


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## CAPTAIN AMERICA

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Do you think the Shaheen 2 travels below Mach 1? I think its time for you to crawl back into the naive little world you came out of.



Its a ballistic missle it falls at the same rate of speed any thing else falls. You know gravity, You never got much of an education did you?


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## S_O_C_O_M

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Its a ballistic missle it falls at the same rate of speed any thing else falls. You know gravity, You never got much of an education did you?



I know you are trying to sound smart but this nonsensical rant comes from an apparent clueless person.

As foolish as you sound, there is a big difference between travel rate and fall rate. To further point out your idiocy - terminal velocity doesn't apply to ballistic missiles when they "fall" as they have such high beta that they're still decellerating on impact as the external force which is used to aid the travel speed of the missile is still is in effect. You sound too naive when you believe these missiles are allowed to float and free fall to their target. 

Now run back and finish up your education at your Special Ed class.


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## hardtarget

i have some lines from holy quran
surah al-baqarah

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse thanslaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first)fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward ofthose who suppress faith.

GOD please help muslims to defend thier self from enemies and finish them (Ameen)


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## Rumporum

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yeah they drop bombs on themselves and use phosphorus shells to bomb their country? n starve themselves to death etc etc
> 
> Pathetic israheli



No they just blow themselves up in cafe's, street buses, shopping malls, bus stops and restaurants basically anywhere where it suits them. Well similar to what the terrorists are doing in Pakistan. You can negotiate with them if you want we don't and the aim is not to kill civilians but to destroy the terrorists and their terrorist infrastructure.


----------



## Rumporum

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Grow up and stop posting with your emotions. I wasn't "war mongering" or "self proclaming Israel as an enemy" I was just stating cold hard facts, which apparently affected you deeply.



Likes of you need to grow up and no no you were not war warmongering you were just chest thumping.. you do that. However anything more than put your money where your mouth is.


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

Rumporum said:


> No they just blow themselves up in cafe's, street buses, shopping malls, bus stops and restaurants basically anywhere where it suits them. Well similar to what the terrorists are doing in Pakistan. You can negotiate with them if you want *we don't and the aim is not to kill civilians but to destroy the terrorists and their terrorist infrastructure.*



Thanks for the good laugh.


----------



## S_O_C_O_M

Rumporum said:


> Likes of you need to grow up and no no you were not war warmongering you were just chest thumping.. you do that. However anything more than put your money where your mouth is.



Go cry me a river you imbecile propagandist troll.


----------



## Rumporum

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Go cry me a river you imbecile propagandist troll.



Kiddo grow up if you cant post something sensible then leave it...and that's it from my side you can rant as long as you like and I am not going to respond if it keeps on being childish as its been so far...

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## S_O_C_O_M

Rumporum said:


> Kiddo grow up if you cant post something sensible then leave it...and that's it from my side you can rant as long as you like and I am not going to respond if it keeps on being childish as its been so far...



A nonsensical reply to obscure your ridiculous anserine posts. Good job.

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## Old School

I do not see the any issue regarding Israel and Pakistan. These two states have no issue between them and neither they share common border. There are delusional supporters of so called Brotherhood who consider Israel an enemy just for the sake of a false Brotherhood. They never practice this brotherhood to help the fellow Pakistanis who are in urgent need. Their brotherhood is all about sharing hatred against an enemy who has nothing to do them. Now, the reality is the following : Israel and Pakistan may not be friends but they certainly share a common enemy which is threatening the very foundation of mankind and civilization.

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## Desert Fox

Old School said:


> Israel and Pakistan may not be friends but they certainly share a *common enemy* which is threatening the very foundation of mankind and civilization.



i agree with everything else you said but common enemy? which *common* enemy do we share with israel?

Pakistan's enemy is india, TTP, and Al-Qaeda!

Israel's enemy is the Palestinians!

i don't see where we are on common ground here?

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## anurag_singh

SilentNinja said:


> i agree with everything else you said but common enemy? which *common* enemy do we share with israel?
> 
> Pakistan's enemy is india, TTP, and Al-Qaeda!
> 
> Israel's enemy is the Palestinians!
> 
> i don't see where we are on common ground here?



Common Enemy = Terrorism


----------



## Desert Fox

Rumporum said:


> Israel does not murder any Muslims in Gaza.The ones who murder others including Muslims is a group called Hamas. The method they use to do this is diversified including sending Suicide bombers.



So driving bulldozers on Palestinian homes is ok right? building illegal settlements on Palestinian territory is alright?

But when they fight back they are terrorists?

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## Desert Fox

anurag_singh said:


> Common Enemy = Terrorism



Can you define terrorism?


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## hardtarget

israil is terrorist and indians r suporter i think both r terrorist

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## hardtarget

indians terrority shows in pakistan and israil terrority shows in palestine


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## Bhim

SilentNinja said:


> i agree with everything else you said but common enemy? which *common* enemy do we share with israel?
> 
> Pakistan's enemy is india, *TTP, and Al-Qaeda*!
> 
> Israel's enemy is the Palestinians!
> 
> i don't see where we are on common ground here?



I can't say about the rest, but I am happy you have started to acknowledge AQ and TTP as enemies.

As for the definition of a terrorist, just google what these 2 organizations are up to, and you would get the answer.

Yes just like Pakistan and Afghanistan, Israel, India the rest of the world is also threatened by a common enemy the TERRORISTS.
But the for the first time probably we are seeing religion being used in such proportions to promote terrorism, and it is understandable the sentiments of people being swayed in their favor.


----------



## ARSENAL6

Rumporum said:


> Kiddo grow up if you cant post something sensible then leave it...and that's it from my side you can rant as long as you like and I am not going to respond if it keeps on being childish as its been so far...


The only person that needs to grow up is you Rumporum.
You only post things that you get work-up on and emotion
You also post nothing but of pure lies to fulfil this degusting propaganda against muslims plus you don&#8217;t have any balance view or an honest report on the issue.
You just wanted be right when exterminating on a people whos land have been stolen by your Zionist warmonger terrorist society. 



Rumporum said:


> Israel does not murder any Muslims



You see this is what I&#8217;m talking about because you can&#8217;t get credible facts
You just have to go say something to be rhetoric about it.
Everyone know about the number of death tolls commited by the IDF every news rEpoter has pulished it and its all over youtube. 
Its just pathetic and childish I&#8217;m sorry you have proven SOCOM last post belatedly
I suppose you got an answer for that too _sigh[_ really you are just proving to everyone who reads this that you are a sick minded person and need a straight jacket



Rumporum said:


> .
> 
> 1st we love life and *dont want a fight.*



IS that what you said when you commited the Holocaust in Lebanon 1982 and as result created Hezbollah which led you guys to kill more innocent oN 2006 IS THAT WHAT YOU CALLED Masada mentality. IS that used when putting sanction on starving Palisteine children ?
I can&#8217;t believe you typed that really ! I think that straight jacket is arrivinig to your doorstep quickly than anticipated




Old School said:


> *I do not see the any issue regarding Israel and Pakistan. These two states have no issue between them and neither they share common border. There are delusional supporters of so called Brotherhood who consider Israel an enemy just for the sake of a false Brotherhood. They never practice this brotherhood to help the fellow Pakistanis who are in urgent need. Their brotherhood is all about sharing hatred against an enemy who has nothing to do them. Now, the reality is the following : Israel and Pakistan may not be friends but they certainly share a common enemy which is threatening the very foundation of mankind and civilization.*



Old School. Israel has already committed an attack on Pakistan Read when Pakistan research on Nuclear. And I&#8217;m sorry to even suggest that Pakistan should be friend with Israel is pure suicide and stupid.
Did you ever see the US making friends with the Taliban after 9/11 ?
I swear Old school are you retarded or an Indian whos hiding behind a Pakistan flag ? This incident of ISrael attacking Pakistan was posted at the begining
Israel only looks after Itself no-one else Trust me they will sell The US off when they get the chance. Old school are you that stupid to think that ?
look in every Youtube forum of Israeli settlers, the Zionist Jews in the west and see what they say about Muslim who just want to live in peace.

And to your common enemy comment, well everyone knows Israel is a terrorist state. SO can we say that Pakistan has the right to defend againts such state to save humanity ?

Here something we all need to see: These are children that refuse to join the IDF because what ISrael is doing 





I hope there will be more of them and go against this Terrorist state known as Israel.

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## Rumporum

ARSENAL6 said:


> The only person that needs to grow up is you Rumporum.
> You only post things that you get work-up on and emotion
> You also post nothing but of pure lies to fulfil this degusting propaganda against muslims plus you don&#8217;t have any balance view or an honest report on the issue.
> You just wanted be right when exterminating on a people whos land have been stolen by your Zionist warmonger terrorist society.
> 
> 
> 
> You see this is what I&#8217;m talking about because you can&#8217;t get credible facts
> You just have to go say something to be rhetoric about it.
> Everyone know about the number of death tolls commited by the IDF every news rEpoter has pulished it and its all over youtube.
> Its just pathetic and childish I&#8217;m sorry you have proven SOCOM last post belatedly
> I suppose you got an answer for that too _sigh[_ really you are just proving to everyone who reads this that you are a sick minded person and need a straight jacket
> 
> 
> 
> IS that what you said when you commited the Holocaust in Lebanon 1982 and as result created Hezbollah which led you guys to kill more innocent oN 2006 IS THAT WHAT YOU CALLED Masada mentality. IS that used when putting sanction on starving Palisteine children ?
> I can&#8217;t believe you typed that really ! I think that straight jacket is arrivinig to your doorstep quickly than anticipated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old School. Israel has already committed an attack on Pakistan Read when Pakistan research on Nuclear. And I&#8217;m sorry to even suggest that Pakistan should be friend with Israel is pure suicide and stupid.
> Did you ever see the US making friends with the Taliban after 9/11 ?
> I swear Old school are you retarded or an Indian whos hiding behind a Pakistan flag ? This incident of ISrael attacking Pakistan was posted at the begining
> Israel only looks after Itself no-one else Trust me they will sell The US off when they get the chance. Old school are you that stupid to think that ?
> look in every Youtube forum of Israeli settlers, the Zionist Jews in the west and see what they say about Muslim who just want to live in peace.
> 
> And to your common enemy comment, well everyone knows Israel is a terrorist state. SO can we say that Pakistan has the right to defend againts such state to save humanity ?
> 
> Here something we all need to see: These are children that refuse to join the IDF because what ISrael is doing
> YouTube- Daughter of Mossad
> 
> I hope there will be more of them and go against this Terrorist state known as Israel.




Blame everything on Israel and yes we started the Lebanese civil war you are absolutely right..even Darfur is Israel's responsibility. I guess the problems between Shia and Sunni's is also Israeli fault it was the Mossad that assassinated Husayn ibn Ali.

Dont know who you are and if your English then you guys are the biggest hypocrites..hey but no..... you lot are pure and innocent to the last one to have always believed in the truth since centuries.


you know what..... not worth commenting or talking to who doesn't know the facts. and on top of that wants to teach me about 1982 Lebanese war....Kid I was there... don't write nonsensical things that you don't know about.

Lastly I have always said there must be a two state solution enough is enough there must be compromises from our side however prior to that Hamas must renounce violence else there can be no talks.


----------



## blueoval79

Thekedari le rakhhi hai Pakistan ne sari duniya ki.....Palestine se le kar Bangladesh tak.....sab inka masla hai.....

They worry about everything else other than Pakistan......woh log chahe inko ghas dalte nahi....par bhai hum to jabardasti ke guardian angel bane hue hain.....

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## Desert Fox

Bhim said:


> I can't say about the rest, but I am happy you have started to acknowledge AQ and TTP as enemies.



Thanks, i never liked AQ or TTP from the beginning!






Bhim said:


> Yes just like Pakistan and Afghanistan,* Israel*, India the rest of the world is also threatened by a common enemy the TERRORISTS.




Which terrorist organization is threatening israel? The Palestinians?

I don't know how Hamas or the Palestinians are terrorists, they're only defending their land from illegal occupation! israel continues to build illegal settlements on Palestinian territory!

Every Muslim sees the Palestinians as freedom fighters, not terrorists!




Bhim said:


> *But the for the first time probably we are seeing religion being used in such proportions to promote terrorism, *



no, this isn't the first time we're seeing religion being used in such proportions to promote terrorism!

Israel began the occupation of Palestine due to *Zionists belief that its their promised land and God gave it to them 3 Millenia ago (3,000 years),* so they systematically massacred the Palestinians and kicked them out of their land!

I don't see how it makes sense if i were to go up to someone and kick them out of their home and claim its mine because 3,000 years ago my ancestors lived there?

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## Patriot

Pakistan and Israel in many cases is quite similar - Both were founded on bases of religion however Pakistan is far bigger and more legitimate compared to Israel.It is interest of Pakistan to learn some lessons from Israel Re: National Security.Israel has done no harm to Pakistan overtly.Pakistanis are largely obsessed with Israel.In fact many in heart admire Israel and very jealous of it's achievements.

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## hardtarget

Patriot said:


> Pakistan and Israel in many cases is quite similar - Both were founded on bases of religion however Pakistan is far bigger and more legitimate compared to Israel.It is interest of Pakistan to learn some lessons from Israel Re: National Security.Israel has done no harm to Pakistan overtly.Pakistanis are largely obsessed with Israel.In fact many in heart admire Israel and very jealous of it's achievements.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> u r not complitly right my dear our HOLY BOOK QURAN PAK says that in Surah An-Nisaa verse 74,75 and 76
> 
> 
> 74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whetherhe is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great(value).
> 
> 75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, andchildren, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose peopleare oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raisefor us from thee one who will help!"
> 
> 76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends ofSatan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
> 
> Surah Al-Maidah verse 51
> 
> 51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to eachother. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
> 
> israil palestine main jo zulam ker reha hay kia her muslim ko chahia nahi kay un ki madad keray


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## Pakistani123

Isreal has not harmed Pakistan,and most Israeli's are normal human beings like you and i.
I have no issue with Israel- as long as they don't harm my Country.

Palestinians and the arabs have not done anything for Pakistan.
When does an arab come out and say "we support you Pakistan" or when has even 1 arab came out and protestd against India?

We have to stop "anti-israel" propoganda in Pakistan,and just start think about our own Country- for a change.

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## Pakistani123

^^^ Please don't use the "Muslim Brotherhood" phrases again,because i'm sick and tired of seeing certain Pakistanis- who seem to care more about "palestine" than their own Country.
All i see is "free palestine","f*** israel" propoganda everywhere.
I mean we can't even talk about our own Country with out seeing "Palestine" or "Muslim Brotherhood" stamped everywhere.
Is it a crime to put Pakistan before out siders??

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## ARSENAL6

Rumporum said:


> Blame everything on Israel and yes we started the Lebanese civil war you are absolutely right..even Darfur is Israel's responsibility. I guess the problems between Shia and Sunni's is also Israeli fault it was the Mossad that assassinated Husayn ibn Ali.



No Mossad created Hamas

Hamas is a Creation of Mossad







Rumporum said:


> you lot are pure and innocent to the last one to have always believed in the truth since centuries.
> .


Of course, didn't you know that ?
PLease include True muslim, True Jews and anyone who do good and live in peace.




Rumporum said:


> you know what..... not worth commenting or talking to who doesn't know the facts. and on top of that wants to teach me about 1982 Lebanese war....Kid I was there... don't write nonsensical things that you don't know about.
> .



No you were never there, you post proves this, as it resemble that of lunatic idiot. Whats next Hitler lives in Israel all along...no wait that could be true considering Israel action on Arabs : Muslim, Christian and Jewish people who fight against tyrany and terrorists alike.

We all know why you typed that its because deep down you know we are right and its burning inside you in how pathetically stupid you can be -_ Thats why you can't answer truthfully with facts and rant with froth forming around your mouth or you can't answer it at all so you hide with" I won't answer you" pathetic _

also did any of PAkistani member here taught you that word nonsensical you could learn alot here like how Israel exsistance is the root of all terrorisms like theses vids will explain to you if you care to watch:














































































(and many more)
its educational but then again you proberbly keep them and have nice wet dreams about them like how Nazi had dreams of ways of killing Jews in WW2

But here something we can all enjoy:























Rumporum said:


> Lastly I have always said there must be a two state solution enough is enough there must be compromises from our side however prior to that Hamas must renounce violence else there can be no talks.



a 2 state soloution could be, but ask your Rabbis and the jewish people if they want even Israel to exist entirley

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## ARSENAL6

Pakistani123 said:


> ^^^ Please don't use the "Muslim Brotherhood" phrases again,because i'm sick and tired of seeing certain Pakistanis- who seem to care more about "palestine" than their own Country.
> All i see is "free palestine","f*** israel" propoganda everywhere.
> I mean we can't even talk about our own Country with out seeing "Palestine" or "Muslim Brotherhood" stamped everywhere.
> Is it a crime to put Pakistan before out siders??



thats a huge debate 
but i'll love it on PM really.


----------



## Patriot

hardtarget said:


> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan and Israel in many cases is quite similar - Both were founded on bases of religion however Pakistan is far bigger and more legitimate compared to Israel.It is interest of Pakistan to learn some lessons from Israel Re: National Security.Israel has done no harm to Pakistan overtly.Pakistanis are largely obsessed with Israel.In fact many in heart admire Israel and very jealous of it's achievements.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> u r not complitly right my dear our HOLY BOOK QURAN PAK says that in Surah An-Nisaa verse 74,75 and 76
> 
> 
> 74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whetherhe is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great(value).
> 
> 75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, andchildren, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose peopleare oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raisefor us from thee one who will help!"
> 
> 76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends ofSatan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
> 
> Surah Al-Maidah verse 51
> 
> 51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to eachother. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
> 
> israil palestine main jo zulam ker reha hay kia her muslim ko chahia nahi kay un ki madad keray
> 
> 
> 
> Give me a big ******* break..Pakistanis are being buthcered right and left by Talibans and no you're worried about Arabs - Why don't you apply your so called Muslim brotherhood here and fight Talibans or your brotherhood applies to Arabs only?I don't understand the philosophy of Pakistanis.We're poverty ridden country in reality within the countries no body gives a **** about brotherhood - All of you how many poor people have you helped?You're all elite of our country trying to suck up to Arabs.You think a poor person who can't afford two times meal will worry about these things ?Why don't you work for improvement of your country so no one sleeps hungry.IMHO that is the biggest Jihad one can do.
Click to expand...

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## Rumporum

ARSENAL6 said:


> No Mossad created Hamas
> 
> Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
> YouTube - Israel Created Hamas - Ron Paul Admits
> 
> 
> Of course, didn't you know that ?
> PLease include True muslim, True Jews and anyone who do good and live in peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No you were never there, you post proves this, as it resemble that of lunatic idiot. Whats next Hitler lives in Israel all along...no wait that could be true considering Israel action on Arabs : Muslim, Christian and Jewish people who fight against tyrany and terrorists alike.
> 
> We all know why you typed that its because deep down you know we are right and its burning inside you in how pathetically stupid you can be -_ Thats why you can't answer truthfully with facts and rant with froth forming around your mouth or you can't answer it at all so you hide with" I won't answer you" pathetic _
> 
> also did any of PAkistani member here taught you that word nonsensical you could learn alot here like how Israel exsistance is the root of all terrorisms like theses vids will explain to you if you care to watch:
> 
> YouTube- USS Liberty: Israel Attacks America & Kills; Not Muslim Arabs
> 
> YouTube- What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
> 
> YouTube- We are SHOCKED by Israel's Violence Against Humanitarian Aid Flotilla for Gaza
> 
> YouTube- Gaza: The Killing Zone - Israel/Palestine
> 
> YouTube- Israel's killing of Palestinians infants.. perfectly ok??
> 
> YouTube- killing on air ( watch israeli anchors crying on killing civilian Palestinians on air ) - shocking
> 
> YouTube- Israeli Soldiers kill Palestinian mother
> 
> YouTube- Israel crimes against kids
> 
> YouTube- Israeli soldiers greeting Palestinian women
> 
> YouTube- Israeli children attack Palestinians
> 
> YouTube- Palestinian Children Beaten by Israeli Soldier
> 
> YouTube- Racist Israeli Jews
> 
> YouTube- israeli soldiers released a dog to bite a palastinian women
> 
> YouTube- Israeli Dog Against Palastinian Civilian
> 
> YouTube- Israeli police dog attacks the old
> 
> 
> 
> (and many more)
> its educational but then again you proberbly keep them and have nice wet dreams about them like how Nazi had dreams of ways of killing Jews in WW2
> 
> But here something we can all enjoy:
> 
> YouTube- Child Vs. Jewish Soldier
> 
> YouTube- Palestinian Woman defeats Israeli Commandos
> 
> YouTube- Israeli soldier getting PWND!!! by a kid
> 
> YouTube- Israeli Soldiers Refuse To Serve In Palestine: Part 1 (2002)
> 
> 
> 
> a 2 state soloution could be, but ask your Rabbis and the jewish people if they want even Israel to exist entirley
> 
> YouTube - Haredi Jews Against Israel
> 
> YouTube - Israeli Jewish man says Zionism is the cause of the problems



Stop frothing and tell me the point being??? what has all this to do with Pakistan and Israel especially in Military capability?


----------



## RameeX Xaved

CAPTAIN AMERICA said:


> Comments like yours allways reminds me of President Musharraf speech where he said "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," you all should have kept President Musharraf hes only one in Pakistan with the brains and guts to tell you all how things really are.
> 
> Bottom line if 911 had not happened would not be there. If we wanted natural resources would have just taken Saudia Arabia.



Oh, are you talking about the same musharraf who is now hiding under the US umbrella, and who doesnt have enough balls to face the pakistani people for selling pakistan to US? the same poorest, illetrate, backward, deprived and weakest people developed the atomic bomb out of nothing against all odds and gave a huge slap on the enemies (US, israel, india). no, 9/11 is not the reason why US is in afghanistan. infact its the 27 MAY 98' nuclear tests the US is here because there leaders dance on the directions of zionists just like our leaders dance on US directions.
and isn't Saudi Arabia already under US control?  what are so many US bases doing in saudia arabia? what more you need to do to control S.A?

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## Patriot

RameeX Xaved said:


> Oh, are you talking about the same musharraf who is now hiding under the US umbrella, and who doesnt have enough balls to face the pakistani people for selling pakistan to US? the same poorest, illetrate, backward, deprived and weakest people developed the atomic bomb out of nothing against all odds and gave a huge slap on the enemies (US, israel, india). no, 9/11 is not the reason why US is in afghanistan. infact its the 27 MAY 98' nuclear tests the US is here because there leaders dance on the directions of zionists just like our leaders dance on US directions.
> and isn't Saudi Arabia already under US control?  what are so many US bases doing in saudia arabia? what more you need to do to control S.A?


You may not be aware but it was CIA that actually helped us many times wrt Nuclear Weapons in 80's.In fact Dr Abdul Qadeer khan was caught and detained in Europe but CIA asked State Department to apply pressure and got him released.Please no more conspiracy theories - You just make your country look like a joker - you really think we're this weak that someone will come in and snatch 70-90 nuclear heads and we will be just shitting in our pants?You people just like to feel important - Every one is against us - Trust me if that was the goal we would have been in much deeper **** today.


----------



## Ras

RameeX Xaved said:


> Oh, are you talking about the same musharraf who is now hiding under the US umbrella, and who doesnt have enough balls to face the pakistani people for selling pakistan to US? the same poorest, illetrate, backward, deprived and weakest people developed the atomic bomb out of nothing against all odds and gave a huge slap on the enemies (US, israel, india). no, 9/11 is not the reason why US is in afghanistan. infact its the 27 MAY 98' nuclear tests the US is here because there leaders dance on the directions of zionists just like our leaders dance on US directions.
> and isn't Saudi Arabia already under US control?  what are so many US bases doing in saudia arabia? what more you need to do to control S.A?



You prefer Zardari and Sharif over the General..seriously?


----------



## hardtarget

Patriot said:


> hardtarget said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give me a big ******* break..Pakistanis are being buthcered right and left by Talibans and no you're worried about Arabs - Why don't you apply your so called Muslim brotherhood here and fight Talibans or your brotherhood applies to Arabs only?I don't understand the philosophy of Pakistanis.We're poverty ridden country in reality within the countries no body gives a **** about brotherhood - All of you how many poor people have you helped?You're all elite of our country trying to suck up to Arabs.You think a poor person who can't afford two times meal will worry about these things ?Why don't you work for improvement of your country so no one sleeps hungry.IMHO that is the biggest Jihad one can do.[/QU
> 
> dear u dont know who r taliban.they r terrorist not muslims and they r from india and israil.
> if u will read history u will find taliban as a militery of usa againgst ussr.usa train them and give them lot of money but when usa achieve there goal againgst ussr usa leave taliban on basis of as is where is.than india and israil hold taliban now they give them money weapons and rdx to destablise pakistan.they r not muslims becouse muslims dont murder muslims in mosque and in markets where many childeren were killed.i confirmed u that muslims r not like that.i think u r not from pakistan becouse of ur wording(I don't understand the philosophy of Pakistanis)
Click to expand...


----------



## ARSENAL6

Still at it Rumy LOL _some people just have no dignity don't they people_



Rumporum said:


> Stop frothing and *tell me the point being???* what has all this to do with Pakistan and Israel especially in Military capability?



?  tell me why do constantly keep making Israel the victim and you'll find your answer. If you can't find it well, your intelligence is something to ponder about.
Is this the reason why you posted this tripe, that you can't comprehend both my posts and yours ?
Its nice to see you having no affection of the innocent Palestine who are being butch-ed by the IDF (so much that some Israeli soldiers are now going insane of the guilt they are carrying - (thats how much)) it resembles how the Nazi did to Jews. Is Israel trying to beat the Nazi's records of 10 million people of all race and creed not just the Jews ?

I posted 10 + of ISrael brutality on Arabs and you posted a measely 1 of your sick propaganda videos. Yes I understand that Propaganda videos take time to create to make it more plausible

And speaking about intelligence, are you that much of a retard that you have to copy other people insults for your own - got nothing up that thing you called head ? then I'll stop since the discussion is too much for you.

The best part is that it got to you real good since the insult has really complicated things with your little mind which you are struggling to string up two words !
Come on boy you can do it son !
I'll just wrap things up just in case you embarrass yourself further and give you time to wipe the froth.


----------



## Bhim

hardtarget said:


> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hardtarget said:
> 
> 
> 
> dear u dont know who r *taliban.they r terrorist not muslims and they r from india and israil.*
> if u will read history u will find taliban as a militery of usa againgst ussr.usa train them and give them lot of money but when usa achieve there goal againgst ussr usa leave taliban on basis of as is where is.than *india and israil hold taliban now they give them money weapons and rdx to destablise pakistan*.they r not muslims becouse muslims dont murder muslims in mosque and in markets where many childeren were killed.i confirmed u that muslims r not like that.i think u r not from pakistan becouse of ur wording(I don't understand the philosophy of Pakistanis)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God after all that has happened, still the same old story
> 
> Yes we control terrorists, so what are you planning now? Attack us both? Or send murdering squads into India and Israel?
> 
> If you don't have any of the above plans then the least you can do is, kill them all on your soil. Don't forget to kill JEM, LET and all the other strange sounding outfits.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Bhim

SilentNinja said:


> Thanks, i never liked AQ or TTP from the beginning!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which terrorist organization is threatening israel? The Palestinians?
> 
> I don't know how Hamas or the Palestinians are terrorists, they're only defending their land from illegal occupation! israel continues to build illegal settlements on Palestinian territory!
> 
> Every Muslim sees the Palestinians as freedom fighters, not terrorists!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no, this isn't the first time we're seeing religion being used in such proportions to promote terrorism!
> 
> Israel began the occupation of Palestine due to *Zionists belief that its their promised land and God gave it to them 3 Millenia ago (3,000 years),* so they systematically massacred the Palestinians and kicked them out of their land!
> 
> I don't see how it makes sense if i were to go up to someone and kick them out of their home and claim its mine because 3,000 years ago my ancestors lived there?



Sorry I am not much aware of Israel history, probably can be the truth.
What you have said happened 3000 years back, but this is a present phenomenon. We can not change past, but we can try to save the present. For this all out international condemnation is required with a will to fight them.


----------



## Patriot

hardtarget said:


> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hardtarget said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give me a big ******* break..Pakistanis are being buthcered right and left by Talibans and no you're worried about Arabs - Why don't you apply your so called Muslim brotherhood here and fight Talibans or your brotherhood applies to Arabs only?I don't understand the philosophy of Pakistanis.We're poverty ridden country in reality within the countries no body gives a **** about brotherhood - All of you how many poor people have you helped?You're all elite of our country trying to suck up to Arabs.You think a poor person who can't afford two times meal will worry about these things ?Why don't you work for improvement of your country so no one sleeps hungry.IMHO that is the biggest Jihad one can do.[/QU
> 
> dear u dont know who r taliban.they r terrorist not muslims and they r from india and israil.
> if u will read history u will find taliban as a militery of usa againgst ussr.usa train them and give them lot of money but when usa achieve there goal againgst ussr usa leave taliban on basis of as is where is.than india and israil hold taliban now they give them money weapons and rdx to destablise pakistan.they r not muslims becouse muslims dont murder muslims in mosque and in markets where many childeren were killed.i confirmed u that muslims r not like that.i think u r not from pakistan becouse of ur wording(I don't understand the philosophy of Pakistanis)
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your politeness but i disagree wrt to talibans - I think these terrorists are modern day khajiris.They are Muslims Make no doubt about that - In fact they consider people like you and me infidels.I very well know how we served U nited States by training Afghans for jihad.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Pakistani123

Why are we even discussing Isreal and "palestine"?????
This forum is about Pakistan!!
Pakistani's are dying brutal deaths everyday!!!
Do you think arab's care for Pakistan???? NO WAY!
Sometime's when i see Pakistanis caring more for those palestinians then inncocent Pakisatnis...i feel ashamed to be Pakistani.


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## Pakistani123

arab's only care for a "free palestine"...they want us to die for their "palestine",but they don't give a F*** about the Pakistani's dying each day.

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## hardtarget

Patriot said:


> hardtarget said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your politeness but i disagree wrt to talibans - I think these terrorists are modern day khajiris.They are Muslims Make no doubt about that - In fact they consider people like you and me infidels.I very well know how we served U nited States by training Afghans for jihad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dear i believe that in every country in every religion in every comunity there r some good people and some bad people.we have also bad people in our country in our religion they r taliban but who make them stronger those who hate pakistan peace and muslims as well.now question is that who give them finance and weapons obiously RAW and MOSAD.becouse they both wana destablise pakistan and muslims.india want to destablise pakistan and israil know that we r muslims and we love arabs thats the reason both wana destablise pakistan.we need to stand united againgst terrorism
> no mention it is in pakistan or in palestine.if we r not then they will finish us.ALLAH forgive us for our mistaks and give us help to protect our nation and muslims as well and give us victory against our enemy and give us knowledge that we see about the right path of islam.(Ameen)
> we should need to read QURAN PAK and pray for ALLAH.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

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## Bhim

hardtarget said:


> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hardtarget said:
> 
> 
> 
> dear i believe that in every country in every religion in every comunity there r some good people and some bad people.we have also bad people in our country in our religion they r taliban but who make them stronger those who hate pakistan peace and muslims as well.now question is that who give them finance and weapons *obiously RAW and MOSAD.*becouse they both wana destablise pakistan and muslims.india want to destablise pakistan and israil know that we r muslims and we love arabs thats the reason both wana destablise pakistan.we need to stand united againgst terrorism
> no mention it is in pakistan or in palestine.if we r not then they will finish us.ALLAH forgive us for our mistaks and give us help to protect our nation and muslims as well and give us victory against our enemy and give us knowledge that we see about the right path of islam.(Ameen)
> we should need to read QURAN PAK and pray for ALLAH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good if no explanation just get that old whipping horse, and put the blame on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Rumporum

ARSENAL6 said:


> Still at it Rumy LOL _some people just have no dignity don't they people_
> 
> 
> 
> ?  tell me why do constantly keep making Israel the victim and you'll find your answer. If you can't find it well, your intelligence is something to ponder about.
> Is this the reason why you posted this tripe, that you can't comprehend both my posts and yours ?
> Its nice to see you having no affection of the innocent Palestine who are being butch-ed by the IDF (so much that some Israeli soldiers are now going insane of the guilt they are carrying - (thats how much)) it resembles how the Nazi did to Jews. Is Israel trying to beat the Nazi's records of 10 million people of all race and creed not just the Jews ?
> 
> I posted 10 + of ISrael brutality on Arabs and you posted a measely 1 of your sick propaganda videos. Yes I understand that Propaganda videos take time to create to make it more plausible
> 
> And speaking about intelligence, are you that much of a retard that you have to copy other people insults for your own - got nothing up that thing you called head ? then I'll stop since the discussion is too much for you.
> 
> The best part is that it got to you real good since the insult has really complicated things with your little mind which you are struggling to string up two words !
> Come on boy you can do it son !
> I'll just wrap things up just in case you embarrass yourself further and give you time to wipe the froth.




Well Boy (thing whatever you are ) looks like there is nothing or empty space/dust between your two ears which others call brains. Since your 1st post you have been attacking me personally by insulting me... just shows how well your were brought him anyway.....

therefore **** head I don't have want to have any discussions with people like you..you may climb back to your hole and claim victory.


----------



## khurasaan1

Patriot said:


> You may not be aware but it was CIA that actually helped us many times wrt Nuclear Weapons in 80's.In fact Dr Abdul Qadeer khan was caught and detained in Europe but CIA asked State Department to apply pressure and got him released.Please no more conspiracy theories - You just make your country look like a joker - you really think we're this weak that someone will come in and snatch 70-90 nuclear heads and we will be just shitting in our pants?You people just like to feel important - Every one is against us - Trust me if that was the goal we would have been in much deeper **** today.


I hope whatever you said above is true ...but if it isn't then where we gonna find you...LOL,


----------



## khurasaan1

hardtarget said:


> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hardtarget said:
> 
> 
> 
> dear i believe that in every country in every religion in every comunity there r some good people and some bad people.we have also bad people in our country in our religion they r taliban but who make them stronger those who hate pakistan peace and muslims as well.now question is that who give them finance and weapons obiously RAW and MOSAD.becouse they both wana destablise pakistan and muslims.india want to destablise pakistan and israil know that we r muslims and we love arabs thats the reason both wana destablise pakistan.we need to stand united againgst terrorism
> no mention it is in pakistan or in palestine.if we r not then they will finish us.ALLAH forgive us for our mistaks and give us help to protect our nation and muslims as well and give us victory against our enemy and give us knowledge that we see about the right path of islam.(Ameen)
> we should need to read QURAN PAK and pray for ALLAH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent post bro....U know the end game...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

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## hardtarget

Pakistani123 said:


> arab's only care for a "free palestine"...they want us to die for their "palestine",but they don't give a F*** about the Pakistani's dying each day.



bro we r muslims and muslims r brothers each other if anyone hurt muslim others feel his pain that is our islam if arab dont care abt us they give answer to ALLAH.our duty is to rescue muslims in any part of the world.

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## Pakistani123

hardtarget said:


> bro we r muslims and muslims r brothers each other if anyone hurt muslim others feel his pain that is our islam if arab dont care abt us they give answer to ALLAH.our duty is to rescue muslims in any part of the world.



Is that the best you can come up with?? 
There were bomb blast's in Lahore and Peshawar- hundreds of innocents were murderd,and all you can think about is Palestine??

Do you think poor Pakistani people want to die for a "free palestine"??? The vast majority of Pakistanis would never die for Palestine.The vast moajority of Pakistanis couldn't care less about Palestine and Israel.
Sure,i feel sorry for the dead Palestinians....but to put my life at risk for them?? Please be realistic and honest.
You're willing to die for Palestine??(speak for yourself....don't speak for Pakistan)


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## Pakistani123

hardtarget said:


> duty is to rescue muslims in any part of the world.



It's our duty to protect our own Pakistan first!


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## hardtarget

Pakistani123 said:


> Is that the best you can come up with??
> There were bomb blast's in Lahore and Peshawar- hundreds of innocents were murderd,and all you can think about is Palestine??
> 
> Do you think poor Pakistani people want to die for a "free palestine"??? The vast majority of Pakistanis would never die for Palestine.The vast moajority of Pakistanis couldn't care less about Palestine and Israel.
> Sure,i feel sorry for the dead Palestinians....but to put my life at risk for them?? Please be realistic and honest.
> You're willing to die for Palestine??(speak for yourself....don't speak for Pakistan)



we suffering because we r not care each other that is the cause if we go together we will achieve every goal so brother make your mind more polite and merciful u will find GOD more merciful and helpful for us INSHALLAH.


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## hardtarget

Pakistani123 said:


> It's our duty to protect our own Pakistan first!


 

brother u know what is our actual duty being a muslim.we are not doing our duty as per our GOD says that is the reason we are suffering these days.


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## Patriot

hardtarget said:


> brother u know what is our actual duty being a muslim.we are not doing our duty as per our GOD says that is the reason we are suffering these days.


We show off Islam when we want to, however in our lives and in our interactions with others, we are totally devoid of it. Thus all we see coming from our side is hypocrisy and self-deception.We can't help our own Pakistani brothers who are suffering (please go ahead and tell me how many pakistanis you have helped?) but willing to help arabs in the name of muslim brotherhood .I would say Americans and western people in general are far more decent people then us where majority is corrupt.

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## hardtarget

Patriot said:


> We show off Islam when we want to, however in our lives and in our interactions with others, we are totally devoid of it. Thus all we see coming from our side is hypocrisy and self-deception.We can't help our own Pakistani brothers who are suffering (please go ahead and tell me how many pakistanis you have helped?) but willing to help arabs in the name of muslim brotherhood .I would say Americans and western people in general are far more decent people then us where majority is corrupt.



dont be so selfish dear we are in trouble because of our selfishness if we do our job with honesty and with in the limits of islam we are not fire butt now a days we are not doing as per our HOLY QURAN says that is major cause if we change our self we will be the super power.Americans are ahead because they love there country and peoples.but we are selfish we think only about our self not others.


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## muhammad asim aslam

i hate israel


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## Pakistani123

hardtarget said:


> dont be so selfish dear we are in trouble because of our selfishness if we do our job with honesty and with in the limits of islam we are not fire butt now a days we are not doing as per our HOLY QURAN says that is major cause if we change our self we will be the super power.Americans are ahead because they love there country and peoples.but we are selfish we think only about our self not others.[/QUOTE
> 
> I'm dissapointed


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## Pakistani123

hardtarget said:


> dont be so selfish dear we are in trouble because of our selfishness if we do our job with honesty and with in the limits of islam we are not fire butt now a days we are not doing as per our HOLY QURAN says that is major cause if we change our self we will be the super power.Americans are ahead because they love there country and peoples.but we are selfish we think only about our self not others.



You're selfish.You are sucking up to the arabs,and you don't seem to give a F*** about your own people.

Pakistani's in general don't hate Israel,we don't want war with Israel.Stop showing Pakistan in the wrong light.


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## Rumporum

I have no issues with Pakistani's and I have found them to be very hospitable and nice people. I had/have two very good Pakistani friends in India with whom I am still very much in contact. Also last days I met some and made new Pakistani friends in Qatar. Actually I was introduced to them by my Indian friends and I am always surprised despite the superficially animosity Pakistani's and Indians get along very well with each other and are very very courteous and civilized to each other. Not the case sometimes on the forum 


The Pakistani guys in Delhi always said that they felt like home there and they never faced any sort of discrimination or prejudice actually on the contrary people went out of the way when they learnt that they were from Pakistan. Rikshawala/Autowalla is a case in Darya Ganj or somewhere where I was with my friend and Riskshawalla who was a Hindu refused to take money from us (especially my friend) saying Aap (mainly him) Hamarey Mehmaan hai etc...etc and after much persuasion from my friend eventually took the money.

PS: Rikshawalla was/is Rajender Singh who became the Rikshawalla of choice i.e. Rikshaw on Demand give him a call and 15 mins later he was there

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## Ras

Pakistani123 said:


> arab's only care for a "free palestine"...they want us to die for their "palestine",but they don't give a F*** about the Pakistani's dying each day.



They don't care for Palestine either...if they did Jordan would not massacre Palestinians in their territory and Egypt would not enforce blockade on Gaza along with Israel.


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## nForce

hardtarget said:


> bro we r muslims and muslims r brothers each other if anyone hurt muslim others feel his pain that is our islam if arab dont care abt us they give answer to ALLAH.our duty is to rescue muslims in any part of the world.



Firstly,you seem like a confused person to me and secondly you are getting me confused.I mean,I never understood the religious angle of looking at anything and everything.I do understand,that religion is deeply intertwined in most of the issues we face today,but surely we can do a lot better if we keep religion aside while searching for solutions to various problems.

I have seen many Pakistanis here who proudly play the role of being more Arab than actual middle Eastern Arabs,more Palestinian than actual Palestinians,more Egyptian than actual Egyptians,more Syrian than actual Syrians,more Iraqi than the actual Iraqis,more Afghan than actual Afghans,more Chechen than actual Chechens,more Bangladeshi than actual Bangladeshis and finally more Kashmiri than the actual Kashmiris.*What happens when it comes to play the role of a responsible Pakistani???*(just copy pasted this part from another post of mine)


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## somebozo

Pakistan is one country and Israel is another. The same British mandate which created Pakitan also created Israel regardless of demographics and politics. Pakistanis should see politics beyond the limitation of emotions and being pawn of others. Pakistan could enjoy close ties with Israel without risking its releation with Arabs and perhaps act as a mediator too. Turkey had been enjoying close ties with Israel while carrying a favourable opinion among Arab circles. Israel is desperate for accecptance in Islamic world and willing to sell sophiscated technology on the cheap to anyone. We usually end up buying the same defence technology from USA as tripple price tag. There is more benefit to be had here than loses and act as a counter balance to random american embargos. Diplomatically speaking, Pakistan has expressed its neutal policy towards Israel and few times political figures of each side has met at side during international events. Pakistan being a major player in Muslim world politics could also broker a deal for security of Jerusalem because the Israeli-Arab releationship is soured beyond recovery.

As much as we love the arabs we should stay in touch with political and millitary reality that Israel was in peaceful existence until 1967 when arabs actually lost the war and Israel happen to expand. As a neutral person I must that that parties involved in armed aggression should always face the cosequences be it loss or victory. If the very Arabs can establish trade and political ties while keeping their support for Palestinean liberaton there we should not try being more arab than actual arabs. It hurts our own international position.

The political issues should be seprated from millitary and religious one when dealing on international front wether its with India, Israel, USA etc etc.. however Pak politics seems to be a mix of all.

From religious point of view, We are muslims and ahle-kitab are next closest..I guess Pak politicans are not level headed.

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## Pakistani123

somebozo said:


> Pakistan is one country and Israel is another. The same British mandate which created Pakitan also created Israel regardless of demographics and politics. Pakistanis should see politics beyond the limitation of emotions and being pawn of others. Pakistan could enjoy close ties with Israel without risking its releation with Arabs and perhaps act as a mediator too. Turkey had been enjoying close ties with Israel while carrying a favourable opinion among Arab circles. Israel is desperate for accecptance in Islamic world and willing to sell sophiscated technology on the cheap to anyone. We usually end up buying the same defence technology from USA as tripple price tag. There is more benefit to be had here than loses and act as a counter balance to random american embargos. Diplomatically speaking, Pakistan has expressed its neutal policy towards Israel and few times political figures of each side has met at side during international events. Pakistan being a major player in Muslim world politics could also broker a deal for security of Jerusalem because the Israeli-Arab releationship is soured beyond recovery.
> 
> As much as we love the arabs we should stay in touch with political and millitary reality that Israel was in peaceful existence until 1967 when arabs actually lost the war and Israel happen to expand. As a neutral person I must that that parties involved in armed aggression should always face the cosequences be it loss or victory. If the very Arabs can establish trade and political ties while keeping their support for Palestinean liberaton there we should not try being more arab than actual arabs. It hurts our own international position.
> 
> The political issues should be seprated from millitary and religious one when dealing on international front wether its with India, Israel, USA etc etc.. however Pak politics seems to be a mix of all.
> 
> From religious point of view, We are muslims and ahle-kitab are next closest..I guess Pak politicans are not level headed.




We don't love the arabs...we don't hate them either.


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## sab

hardtarget said:


> brother u know what is our actual duty being a muslim.we are not doing our duty as per our GOD says that is the reason we are suffering these days.


Exactly opposite. Some of us are overdoing the job that is the reason Muslims are suffering.


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## liberalindian8

RameeX Xaved said:


> friendship with israel?  you mean friendship with zionists who are the killers of millions of muslims in palestine, iraq afghanistan and pakistan?  you mean friendship with those bloody zionists who have taken over the world and are feeding all their allies to denueclearise Pakistan and snatch its Islamic identity?  you mean friendship with that country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves. we should work with india in achieving our goals"
> no mate, we are far far far better off without them



"country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves" Can you please give the source of this?


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## liberalindian8

abbasniazi said:


> Here is my say...
> 
> Israel=Enemy state...Now and forever.



we want you to keep it that way and we reap the benefits.


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## Safron Slayer

* liberalindian8*
"country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves" Can you please give the source of this?



Its David Bengoraen... in his speech in 1948. Google it.


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## Bushy

Safron Slayer said:


> * liberalindian8*
> "country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves" Can you please give the source of this?
> 
> 
> 
> Its David Bengoraen... in his speech in 1948. Google it.



I tried googling it, but found nothing. If you are so confident, can you provide a respectable link that can substantiate your allegation?

P.S. While googling, I did find this link, perhaps the blog of our own fellow member Solomon2 - 
http://solomon2.blogspot.com/2008/12/debunking-ben-gurion-on-pakistan.html


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## somebozo

Well Ben Gurion may or may not have said this because no proof exist other than conspiracy theories. When Israel was founded, its prime supporter was not USA but USSR but soon the alliance fell appart and Israel sided itself with USA.


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## Bushy

somebozo said:


> Well Ben Gurion did say this however it was 60years ago and political reality has changed since. Those people could not envision the politics to come in next few decades. When Israel was founded, its prime supporter was not USA but USSR but soon the alliance fell appart and Israel sided itself with USA.



If you could provide an authentic link, it would be easier to believe your words.


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## khurasaan1

Pakistani123 said:


> We don't love the arabs...we don't hate them either.



We love only those who loves Allah and his beloved Rasool paak(P.B.U.H.) and we hate those who hate Allah and his Rasool(P.B.U.H.) otherwise we don't.


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## owcc

khurasaan1 said:


> We love only those who loves Allah and his beloved Rasool paak(P.B.U.H.) and we hate those who hate Allah and his Rasool(P.B.U.H.) otherwise we don't.



May i ask what about the people who are neutral i.e they neither love or have any hate against Allah


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## Rumporum

liberalindian8 said:


> "country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves" Can you please give the source of this?



This is a myth or a very well spun tale...David Ben Gurion never said that ... this is another Conspiracy theory bogey..


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## pakomar

liberalindian8 said:


> "country whose prime minister himself stated "Pakistan should be wiped out at any cost because these lovers of arabs are more threat to us than arabs themselves" Can you please give the source of this?



now i have heard everything. why non muslim do not understand it not about arab its about muslim unity all over the world what ever their cast is.


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## pakomar

owcc said:


> May i ask what about the people who are neutral i.e they neither love or have any hate against Allah



example is china . we never play any proxy war against china.

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## somebozo

khurasaan1 said:


> We love only those who loves Allah and his beloved Rasool paak(P.B.U.H.) and we hate those who hate Allah and his Rasool(P.B.U.H.) otherwise we don't.



This is what the dire madrassa influenced Pakistani education creates. People totally deviod of history. May be I ask, In this case why are we building an alliance with China, them being idol worshipper puts them in open war agains our principle?? Speaking from your logic, we should haste up to build alliances with USA and Israel because they are people of the book and counter the chinese for being idol worshippers??

Mullahs often cannot explain their own twisted logic.

We like to play the religion card when it suits us and race card when it suits us..our politics are hapless and direction less..we dont know where are we heading or where do we want to head..other than spending 100&#37; energy to counter India.

Religion is to be kept out of national politics..

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## Bhim

pakomar said:


> example is china .* we never play any proxy war against china*.



Sorry mate I by mistake pressed the thank you button.


Now this is a matter of worry, first time an open admission of proxy war around the world hatched and conspired by disillusioned Pakistani nationals..


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## pakomar

Bhim said:


> Sorry mate I by mistake pressed the thank you button.
> 
> 
> Now this is a matter of worry, first time an open admission of proxy war around the world hatched and conspired by disillusioned Pakistani nationals..



next time be careful what you are pressing .


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## Bhim

pakomar said:


> next time be careful what you are pressing .



OKK, but don't worry it wouldn't be a nuke.


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## pakomar

Bhim said:


> OKK, but don't worry it wouldn't be a nuke.



I know...... you guys can nt do it..


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## Bhim

pakomar said:


> I know...... you guys can nt do it..



Yes we are sensible human beings..


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## pakomar

Bhim said:


> Yes we are sensible human beings..



we are getting no where if i continue with arguments. Atomic booms are not a child toy. they are keep only to save guard a country right of freedom.


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## khurasaan1

somebozo said:


> This is what the dire madrassa influenced Pakistani education creates. People totally deviod of history. May be I ask, In this case why are we building an alliance with China, them being idol worshipper puts them in open war agains our principle?? Speaking from your logic, we should haste up to build alliances with USA and Israel because they are people of the book and counter the chinese for being idol worshippers??
> 
> Mullahs often cannot explain their own twisted logic.
> 
> We like to play the religion card when it suits us and race card when it suits us..our politics are hapless and direction less..we dont know where are we heading or where do we want to head..other than spending 100% energy to counter India.
> 
> Religion is to be kept out of national politics..



who told u that they worship idols...
..its funny that u say they worship idols ..bro go and interview them they believe in one God too like we do and is the same god we have but they say it a different name in chinese....but instead i guess we might be worshipping idol... ...How? cuz we bend all the time to a piece of stone/walls called Kaaba...don't we? So if anybody will see us they will think we worshipping stones or walls..unless somebody ask us ...so we should not just conclude what they do..they are far better than Yahood and Nasaaraa. Since Rasool Allah guided us to go to China for education/Help if needed. Quraan said never trust Yahood and Nassaaraa cuz they will never be our friends..
So I guess bro we need to read Quran and Ahaadees to better guide us..and get rid of our ignorance..
Bro we are heading to the right direction...countering India and all the evil world trying to finish our identity being True Muslim...Religion is our life...Alhamdolillah

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## khurasaan1

owcc said:


> May i ask what about the people who are neutral i.e they neither love or have any hate against Allah



What u say about Krishna?
Do u love him or hate him?
what u say about those pplz who dont love him or hate him?
Then i will be able to explain ure answer easily

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## khurasaan1

owcc said:


> May i ask what about the people who are neutral i.e they neither love or have any hate against Allah



anywayz i like ure question...
its really interesting...


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## somebozo

khurasaan1 said:


> who told u that they worship idols...
> 
> ..its funny that u say they worship idols ..bro go and interview them they believe in one God too like we do and is the same god we have but they say it a different name in chinese....but instead i guess we might be worshipping idol... ...How? cuz we bend all the time to a piece of stone/walls called Kaaba...don't we? So if anybody will see us they will think we worshipping stones or walls..unless somebody ask us ...so we should not just conclude what they do..they are far better than Yahood and Nasaaraa. Since Rasool Allah guided us to go to China for education/Help if needed. Quraan said never trust Yahood and Nassaaraa cuz they will never be our friends..
> So I guess bro we need to read Quran and Ahaadees to better guide us..and get rid of our ignorance..
> Bro we are heading to the right direction...countering India and all the evil world trying to finish our identity being True Muslim...Religion is our life...Alhamdolillah



Where did u invent this twisted logic from?? hangin around talibans and mullahs too much?? who are ready to bend and twist logic to approve / disapprove anything???


Religion in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


What ever the Chinese belive, is not definetaly precedor of Islam.
Nothing against Chinese of their religion but I was just trying to make a case for defining ill religio-politics logic 
+ =


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## EjazR

The thread is going offtopic.Anyways, here is an old article that neatly summarises the very many similarities between Israel and Pakistan.
-----------------
*The Strangely Parallel Careers of Israel and Pakistan :: Middle East Quarterly*


> Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.
> -- Zia ul-Haq, Pakistan's ruler, December 1981



Pakistan and Israel share the unique heritage of having been created in the aftermath of World War II as religiously defined states. In each case, the new state emerged as the result of a twentieth-century ideological movement, came into existence accompanied by violence, and attracted a large immigrant population. Both met with initial rejection from religious elements who more recently, on second thought, aspired to gain political power. Despite these and many other similarities, the two states have hardly ever been compared.2 We do so here in the hopes of understanding each one better by seeing it in the context of the other.

*DIFFERENCES*

To begin with, however, it helps to note some of the outstanding differences between Israel and Pakistan, starting with their historical backgrounds. With the single and marginal exception of the medieval Khazar kingdom, Jews were never sovereign after a.d. 70. In contrast, Muslims in India had a grand tradition of rule that began in the eleventh century and lasted until 1858 when India came under direct British rule. While Jews learned how to adapt to rule by others, Muslims always expected to be in charge. "The Muslims were, or had been, the ruling race. How could the former master now allow themselves to be ruled by ... slaves?"3 Statehood in the 1940s thus had very dissimilar meaning for the two: to the Zionists, it appeared as the only solution to two millennia of discrimination, destruction, and death; for the Muslim League, it offered a return to exclusive political power. This difference lives on, for while Israel actively seeks to be the homeland for its diaspora, Pakistan is even unwilling to absorb its own people stranded in Bangladesh following the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971.

The states that came into existence make an unlikely pair. They differ greatly in political structure, with one a modern pluralistic society and the other wavering between military autocracy, feudalism, and democracy. They differ in standard of living, with Israel now counted among the advanced economies and Pakistan still mired with a per-capita income of about $415 a year. In international outlook, the former is a close ally of the United States, the latter holds to a policy of non-alignment even after the demise of the cold war. Israel has a population of 5 million, Pakistan one of 130 million. The Arabs who left Mandatory Palestine remain a first-order political issue while the Hindus who left Pakistan have long since integrated into Indian society. And, of course, one is predominantly Jewish, the other Muslim.

*PRE-STATE DEVELOPMENTS*

These differences notwithstanding, the Zionist and Pakistan movements shared much in common, including their timetables, the irreligiosity of their leaders, the novel nature of their nationalist ideas, and the challenge of a minority population gaining political power.

Origins. The "love of Zion" goes back to early Judaism but modern political Zionism began with the publication in 1896 of Theodor Herzl's Jewish State4; it acquired political reality with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and only at the Biltmore Conference of May 1942 did Jewish nationalists formally declare their intention to establish of a Jewish state in Palestine. Pakistan has a similarly recent history. Although nationalist scholars and politicians tend to romanticize the notion of Pakistan, with some even tracing its origins to the founding of Islam itself,5 the term Pakistan was coined only in 1933 by a Cambridge student, Choudhary Rahmat Ali. "Pakistan is both a Persian and Urdu word," he wrote.



> It is composed of letters taken from all our homelands- "Indian" and "Asian." That is, Punjab, Afghania (North West Frontier Province), Kashmir, Iran, Sindh (including Kutch and Kathiawar), Tukharistan, Afghanistan and Balochistan. It means the land of the Paks -- the spiritually pure and clean. It symbolizes the religious beliefs and ethnical stocks of our people; and it stands for all the territorial constituents of our original Fatherland.6



In March 1942, almost simultaneous with the Biltmore meeting, the Muslim League (the organization pushing for an independent Pakistan) met at Lahore and adopted the "Pakistan resolution," endorsing the position of Mohammed Ali Jinnah (1876?-1948) the founding father of Pakistan and a successful Westernized lawyer, that Hindus and Muslims could "never evolve a common nationality" and any move that disregarded this would inevitably lead to the destruction of any fabric of statehood.

*Irreligiosity*. Ironically, the leaders of both these religiously defined national movements were personally irreligious, and some even outspoken atheists. "Even Jews who opposed formal religion saw themselves or at least were seen by others as having a common Jewish culture, with its own literature, language, and modes of social relations."8 Zionism was not a religious doctrine; pioneers of the Jewish state like David Ben-Gurion were motivated by non-religious socialist ideals, not by messianic dogma. Jewish manual labor, not prayer, was their chosen means. Jinnah was anything but a religious person. Rather, he was known for his aristocratic tastes and lifestyle. Mahatma Gandhi's grandson Rajmohan aptly sums up Jinnah's complex personality:



> He seemed on the way to leading India; he founded Pakistan instead. For much of his life he championed Hindu-Muslim unity; later he demanded, obtained, and, for a year, ran a separate Muslim homeland. Neither Sunni nor mainstream Shiite, his family belonged to the small Khoja or Ismaili community led by the Aga Khan; yet Mohammed Ali Jinnah was in the end the leader of India's Muslims. Anglicized and aloof in manner, incapable of oratory in an Indian tongue, keeping his distance from mosques, opposed to the mixing of religion and politics, he yet became inseparable, in that final phase, from the cry of Islam in danger.9



A nation? Zionist and Pakistani thinkers both had to cope with the same question: Did their religious community qualify as a nation? How could Jews, dispersed for over two millennia, constitute a single people analogous to the Portuguese or the Chinese? Why should Indians who converted to Islam make up a nation distinct from their non-Muslim neighbors? In short, how could Jews from Berlin and Baghdad or Muslims from Madras and Multan have enough in common to make up a single people?

In reply, Zionists held that history has treated the Jews as a separate and distinct entity and nation. Any realistic solution to the prolonged "Jewish problem" lies not in looking for new rulers but for Jews to become rulers themselves. Similarly, Jinnah held that Muslims are "a nation by any definition."10The Muslim League argued that there were historical as well as cultural differences between Hindus and Muslims that neither the passage of time nor interaction could satisfactorily bridge.

Neither was willing to live as a protected or tolerated minority in a post-British dispensation. Just as the Zionists rejected the idea of a federal Palestine, the League turned down suggestions of autonomous Muslim units within a unified India. Zionist arguments for a state shared much with Jinnah's justification of the Muslim minority retaining its separate identity through the realization of a state.

In both cases, a substantial body of opinion argued against religiously based nationalism. Binationalists like Martin Buber argued, vainly one might add, that instead of exclusive Jewish or Arab nations, Palestine could become a multinational state. In their view such a state "represents a higher, more modern and more hopeful idea than the universal sovereign independent state."11 Likewise, Muslim members of the Indian National Congress belonged to an organization vehemently opposed to the idea of religious faith's defining a person's nation.

Redefining the population. Palestine consisted of Arab and non-Arab populations, British India of Hindu and non-Hindu populations; any other classifications ignored the prevailing demographic reality. But such divisions had little appeal to Zionists or the Muslim League, who needed a demarcation that would strengthen their respective constituencies. Both daringly and successfully reversed the formula: Palestine was thus composed of Jews and non-Jews, India of Muslims and non-Muslims. Thus did the Balfour Declaration promise to maintain civil and religious rights for the "non-Jewish communities in Palestine," as though they were a minority, and not some 90 percent of the population. Although the League projected itself as the sole spokesman of the Indian Muslims, in the first general elections in 1937, it won only 108 of the 485 seats reserved for Muslims and was rejected by the Muslim majority areas which later became Pakistan.

Cool to democracy. Zionists and Indian Muslims both suffered from being a minority; both had to deal with a British administration inclined to handle cultural problems with elections. And both responded with vehement opposition to the principle of determining the post-British political arrangement through democratic means. The Zionists' rejection of self-determination in Palestine, plus their effort to link the fate of Palestine to that of diaspora Jews, followed mainly from the minority Jewish position in Palestine; a one-man-one-vote policy would have placed them under perpetual Arab control and domination. Muslims were always very aware of their minority status in India and similarly shied away from democracy. For Jinnah, "democracy can only mean Hindu Raj all over India. This is a position to which Muslims will never submit."12 Muslims also feared that "Western representative institutions would place them under permanent Hindu Raj."13

Parity. Instead of democracy, Zionists and Indian Muslims preferred a different formula, that of parity. Demographic considerations delayed the Zionist demands for parity but the arrival of the fourth and fifth wave of diaspora Jews making aliya enhanced the position of the Yishuv (Zionist community) to the point that in 1936 Jews constituted over 28 percent of the Palestinian population. This improved demographic situation enabled the Zionist leadership to seek parity in British consideration with the non-Jewish population.

Likewise, the Muslim League demanded that Muslims be treated differently from non-Muslim Indians, then projected itself as their exclusive representative.14 It thereby challenged the rights of other political parties (the Congress Party in particular) to represent Muslim interests or even to include Muslims among their delegations and representatives. Jinnah's "claim for parity developed steadily from simple political parity between League and Congress to communal parity between Muslims and Hindus and culminated finally in the demand for ideological parity between Muslims and non-Muslims."15

*NATIONS IN THE MAKING*

Once they came into existence as states, both Pakistan and Israel experienced similar sorts of problems as nations in the making, involving boundaries, migration, language, identity, and the legal order.

Geography. Both states had awkward borders at their start. Israel's territory resulted from the happenstance of war and led to such anomalies as a divided capital city and a country with a waist only nine miles wide; only in 1967 did Israel end these irregularities. Pakistan had an even more bizarre geography, for it consisted of west and east wings separated by a thousand-mile Indian territory. Those two halves "were remote from each other in everything from language and high cultural tradition to diet, costume, calendar, standard time and social customs."16 The cession of the east wing in 1971, though very painful, did provide geographic contiguity and national focus to Pakistan.

In-migration. Between 1948-51, more than 600,000 immigrants arrived in Israel, doubling the Jewish population and drastically altering Israel's cultural map, as most of the new immigrants came from Arab countries. Pakistan's formation was accompanied by the influx and outflow of huge numbers of refugees, estimated at fifteen million, the vast majority of whom arrived with little property (those with possessions tended to stay behind in India). Absorbing this refugee population proved a monumental task for both Israel and Pakistan (and India too). Besides having to provide for housing, employment, education, and distribution of wealth and opportunities, and having to allow for social and cultural adjustments, each new state had to provide a sense of belonging and national identity. The challenge was heightened in Israel's case by the immigrants' worldwide origins and in Pakistan's by the ethnic diversity of its native population as well as the Mohajirs (immigrants from India).

Language. In both countries, few spoke the language that served as official tongue. Hebrew, revived from millennia past as a vernacular, had to be learned by nearly everyone. In many families, parents continued with their diverse mother tongues while Hebrew became the language of the children. Had demographic considerations predominated in Pakistan, Bengali would have been the national language, spoken as it was by more than half of Pakistan's original population. Instead, Urdu -- spoken primarily in the Gangetic belt that lay outside its borders17 and not the principal language of any province that composed Pakistan -- became the country's official language.18

Establishing a national identity. Internal disagreements among both Israelis and Pakistanis are acute. The religious-secular debates are at times extremely intense and eventually could damage the state. Tensions between the Ashkenazi (i.e., Europeans) and the Sephardi (Middle Easterners) has a lesser role but played a crucial role in the defeat of the Labor alignment in 1977. Pakistan was anything but a homogeneous entity at the time of its formation; other than being Muslims, the citizens had very little in common -- and even as Muslims, the Sunnis, Shi`is, Ahmadis, and Isma`ilis differed ferociously among themselves. Establishing a Pakistan identity among a divided population was the primary task of the new state, one not fully achieved, for the country remains riven by these divisions, especially the Sunni-Shi`i one.

Who is a Jew, a Muslim? Who is an Israeli or a Pakistani? What is a Jewish or Islamic state? Both states have struggled to define their core identity. Internal divisions prevent a consensus on the question of who is a Jew or Muslim. As a nation committed to "the ingathering of the exiles," one would expect a general agreement on the Jewish identity. On the contrary, "who is a Jew?" has become among the most controversial and contentious issues in Israel and the passage of time only intensifies the tension. For example, the massive immigration from the former Soviet Union led to major disagreements when, on halachic grounds, the religious establishment questioned the Jewish credentials of many immigrants. Because of their questionable Judaism, those who fought and died in defense of the country have at times been refused burial in Jewish cemeteries. Likewise, conversions to Judaism under Conservative or Reform auspices are not accepted in Israel.

In Pakistan, a fundamentalist Jamaat-i Islami group put this issue on the national agenda in 1953 by demanding that Ahmadis19 be declared non-Muslims. When the government rejected this demand, the Jamaat engaged in anti-Ahmadi violence. The chief justice of the Supreme Court, Mohammed Munir, headed an commission of inquiry that drew an interesting observation: the ulema (religious authorities) could not agree on the question of who is a Muslim.20 The fundamentalists lost this battle but not the war; to retain their support, Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in 1973 conceded to include an amendment to the newly promulgated constitution that declared the Ahmadis non-Muslims. Take the case of Sir Muhammad Zafrulla Khan, a political and legal luminary who consciously opted to live in Pakistan and make it his home: he served the new Islamic Republic as its first foreign minister, skillfully articulated Islamic positions in international fora, took Pakistan into the SEATO alliance, and became the first Pakistani judge at the International Court of Justice in the Hague. Yet the 1973 constitution of Pakistan declared Sir Zafrulla a non-Muslim and he died in 1985 a kafir (infidel) in his own country.

*Constitutions.* In Israel, domestic differences impeded a written constitution; for the same reason, Pakistan had too many of them. Conflict over the role and position of halacha (religious law) in the Jewish State significantly inhibited Israel from enacting a constitution. What began as a compromise British model of not having a written constitution gradually became a Pandora's box. With the growing influence of religious parties, writing a constitution has become more distant than ever. In its five decades, Pakistan has had seven constitutional arrangements -- those of 1935, 1956, 1958, 1962, 1969, 1973, and 1985.

*SECULARISM VS. THEOCRACY*

Secular movements. The parallel religious response to the new states holds particular interest. Supporters of the Zionist and Pakistani enterprises came primarily from the secular middle-class and neither intended to create a theocratic polity. Reflecting on the Declaration of Independence, David Ben-Gurion later remarked that it



> said something that I know conflicts with the Halacha, universal and equal suffrage without distinctions of sex, religion, race or nationality; and this was adopted even though according to the Halacha women do not have equal rights.... We must undoubtedly respect any Jew who is faithful to the Halacha, but the Halacha does not obligate every Jew.21



At a press conference on July 4, 1947, just a month before partition, Jinnah remarked that it was "absurd" to think that Pakistan would be a religious state.22 On the eve of partition, he categorically told members of the Constituent Assembly,



> You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan.... You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the State.... Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims --not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.23



According to first Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, "Pakistan came into being as a result of the urge felt by the Muslims of the sub-continent to secure a territory, however limited, where Islamic ideology and the way of life could be practiced and demonstrated to the world."[24] The recognition of the centrality of Islam in the new state was not aimed at making its Shari`a the guiding principal. In the words of Paul Brass,



> The League leaders were oriented towards achieving secular political power in a modern constitutional-bureaucratic state structure, in which the shari'a would be respected but would not prevent legislatures from acting in a sovereign manner and in which secular political leaders would be dominant in a representative regime. In both their goals and their political skills, the Muslim League leaders were more oriented towards and ultimately more successful in the secular political arena in which the political choices had to be made.25



Early opposition. In both cases, religious leaders responded negatively to nationalist demands for a religiously-based state. Orthodox Jewry found Zionism unattractive because it contradicted their view that the Jewish state must be formed by the Messiah and not by some nonobservant Zionist mortals. Even today, a substantial body of the Orthodox rejects the state, some going so far as to consort with its enemies. This applies even to government functionaries: a former chief rabbi remains seated and studies a religious text while the audience at an official function sings the national anthem; a deputy mayor of Jerusalem dismisses the Israeli flag as a rag.

The idea of a separate Islamic political entity runs counter to the universal brotherhood preached by Islam; if Islam is the authentic nationality of the Muslims everywhere, then political divisions within the Islamic world can only be temporary. If were Pakistan somehow attained, it would confine the sway and glory of Islam to mere corners of the country, Muslims remaining in India would be weakened, and Pakistan would not be a truly Islamic state.26 Thus, the principal "opposition to the Pakistan demand and to the Muslim League among Muslims came from that segment of the Muslim elite most concerned with the protection of Islam and Muslim culture, from the ulama."27 In addition, their opposition had much to do with self-interest; the ulema did not see in the Muslim League and in the Pakistan idea an appropriate leadership position for themselves as the true protectors of Islam and Shari`a.28 They also opposed Pakistan on the grounds that Pakistan was an unrealistic goal.

As a result, influential elements of the ulema, especially the Jamiyyat-i-Ulama-i-Hind, sided with the Congress Party and against the Muslim League.29 Kifayatullah (1872-1952), mufti of Delhi and founder of Jamiyyat-i-Ulama-i-Hind, also raised doubts in his fatwas about Jinnah's Islamic credentials.30 He pointed out that Jinnah was expert "of English law, not of Islamic law of British politics, not Islamic policies." He lacked even an elementary acquaintance with Islamic jurisprudence. Other of the ulema of the Barelvi school pointed out that as a Shi`i, Jinnah should not lead the faithful. Even those who sought a theocratic state in the sub-continent, like Maulana Abul A`la Maududi (1903-79), had reservations over Jinnah's non-Islamic orientation and approach. Jinnah, whom Indian Muslims had hailed as Quaid-i-Azam (Great Leader), Maududi once dubbed Kafir-i-Azam (Great Unbeliever) because he felt Jinnah "was not a practising Muslim."31

The religious reconsider. Oddly, some of those initially indifferent or even hostile to a state based on religion latterly became among its most fervent advocates and then ambitious to seize control of it. The non-Zionist Orthodox Jews "soon realized that, in a western style democracy, a determined minority has the power to prevent the government from passing laws that ostensibly threaten their sacred principles."32 Before long, they became key players in the Zionist Knesset and at times indispensable coalition partners. Once Pakistan was created as a "homeland" for the subcontinent's Muslim minorities, religious elements would inevitably try to take control of it.33Besides making Pakistan an Islamic Republic the ulema played a crucial role in the legitimization of military rule. An otherwise powerful dictator like Ayub Khan had to make concessions to the ulema and declare Pakistan an Islamic republic. Democracy has been good to the growing ambitions of the religious, with elections enhancing their strength and influence as rival secular parties are compelled to court and solicit the support of the religious leaders and establishment. Religious activists in both countries want such personal and community functions as marriage, divorce, adoption, conversion, burials, and food and travel regulations to come under religious control.

Religion's increased role. The year 1977 was a major landmark in the approach to religion in both countries, as unprecedented political changes compelled rulers to be more accommodating to the religious conservatives. The ninth Knesset elections of that year abruptly ended the Labor Party's perpetual domination of Israeli politics and when Menachem Begin became prime minister, he was joined, after a gap of over two decades, by the Agudat Israel, a non-Zionist party.34 Begin conceded various demands made by the religious establishment that previous Israeli governments had hitherto denied. For example, he gave the National Religious Party control of the coveted education ministry, with its ample financial resources and extensive education network. Pakistan also underwent serious change in 1977 with the imposition of martial law and the overthrow of Zulfiqar Bhutto by General Zia ul-Haq, who ruled until 1988. In need of ways to legitimize his rule, Zia ul-Haq looked to Islam. Projecting himself as a pious Muslim seeking to promote the cause of Islam, he introduced a series of legislative acts toward this end.

Today, both countries face severe fundamentalist pressures. Religious parties made significant gains in the 1996 elections, to the point that Binyamin Netanyahu, a secular, modern, and American-educated leader, had to court the religious establishment to ensure his election as prime minister. The Oxford-educated Benazir Bhutto's alienated the religious establishment in Pakistan partly contributed to her downfall as prime minister on two occasions.

The historical circumstances of their creation mean that secularism is not an option for Israel or Pakistan; that would question their very raison d'&#234;tre. Israel and Pakistan both fall somewhere between theocracy and secularism. Both engage in intrusive scrutiny of individual and collective behaviors; yet greater religious influence would accentuate internal discord and divisions.

*VIEWS OF EACH OTHER*

Israelis spend little time publicly discussing Pakistan but are favorably disposed toward the country. The first known Zionist contacts with the Indian sub-continent were with Muslim League rather than Congress leaders: Chaim Weizman met Shaukat Ali in London in January 1931. Israel sees Pakistan as an important Islamic state, a key player in the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) and a country with nuclear capability. In the public sphere however, relations are not so good, as symbolized by Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's abortive attempt to visit the Palestinian autonomous areas in Gaza in August 1994 without "any contacts or coordination" with Israel; this drew sharp rebuttal from Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and the visit did not take place.

As this incident suggests, Pakistani leaders long placed themselves at the forefront of the "anti-Zionist" struggle and saw their commitment to the Palestinian cause as a way to display their Islamic credentials. In 1947, Pakistan led Islamic opposition to the partition plan, and the passage of time only intensified this zeal. No other Arab or Muslim figure could have presented a more vociferous defense in support of the Palestinians than did Sir Zafrulla Khan, the first foreign minister of Pakistan, at the United Nations debate to partition Palestine.35 He deemed any comparison between the partition of the Indian subcontinent and similar demands in Palestine false, even preposterous, because unlike the Jews in Palestine, the Muslim minority was part of the sub-continental population.36 Conspiracy theories are often used in Pakistani public life to discredit political opponents as Zionist agents and spies; during the 1997 election campaign, some have charged that "Jewish money and power" is trying to influence and control Pakistan's domestic and foreign policies. That the father-in-law of former cricket star and founding leader of Imran Khan, founder of the new political party Pakistan Tehrik-i-Insaaf, is a British Jewish billionaire adds flavor to the debate. Reacting to reports that Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations had attended a reception hosted by his Israeli counterpart Gad Ya'acobi, one Urdu daily warned: "Any Muslim or patriotic Pakistani will consider making contact, developing relations, or attending the receptions of Israeli leaders as a conspiracy against the country and the community until the independence of Jerusalem is secured and a sovereign Palestine is established."37

*CONCLUSIONS*

As states that came into existence to protect and promote the interests of religious minorities, Israel and Pakistan have more in common than is generally recognized. Their histories overlapped in many ways. As nations in the making, they had to create identities, impose languages, and contend with strange boundaries. While both have consciously avoided theocracy, in both places an initially reluctant orthodox segment has successfully gained disproportionate power. Although Israel and Pakistan came into existence to serve as a homeland for all Jews and all Indian Muslims, both confront the fact that more Jews and Indian Muslims live outside the new countries than in them, suggesting that these national enterprises are far from complete.

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## ARSENAL6

Rumporum said:


> *Well Boy (thing whatever you are )* looks like there is nothing or empty space/dust between your two ears which others call brains. Since your 1st post you have been attacking me personally by insulting me... just shows how well your were brought him anyway.....
> 
> therefore **** head *I don't have want to have any discussions* with people like you..you may climb back to your hole and claim victory.



....Boy thing..
....I don't have want to have any discussions with people like you....


Ate to many hamburgers at Mac D's or didn't you get an education ?


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## Tajdar adil

In 1947, media reports the first contact between Pakistan and Israel were made in early days of Pakistan's independence, when Israeli Prime minister David Ben-Gurion sent a secret message by phone to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah to recognize Israel. But Jinnah did not give any particular response to Israel.
In the 1967 6-Day War, in which Israel decisively defeated the Arabs, Pakistani pilots, using Iraqi, Jordanian and Egyptian aircraft shot down 10 Israeli aircraft without losing any from their side. [3]
In 1973, the sixteen of Pakistan Air Force's fighter pilots volunteered in Yom Kippur War. During the conflict, PAF did not lose a single pilot whereas PAF pilots shot down 3 Israeli aircraft. Nur Khan, who was the Wing Commander received praised from Israeli President Ezer Weizman who wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".
In the 1980's, during the Soviet-Afghan War, Pakistani-based intelligence ISI and Israeli intelligence Mossad along with the CIA, ran a covert operation in Afghanistan to remove the Soviets from the country. Israel and Pakistan also had high-level dealings through their powerful intelligence agencies which included military dealings.[4]. Israel also supported Pakistan by providing Soviet weapons to Pakistan during 1980s which were seized after invading Lebanon.
In 1981 After Israel's attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactors in the 1980s, a similar plan to attack Pakistan's Kahuta Research facility by using Indian airfields was foiled, when the Pakistan Air Force got alerted beforehand, and took preventative measures.
In 1993, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto, along with her then-Director-General of Military Operations, Pervez Musharraf, had intensified the ISI's liaison with Mossad in 1993. Bhutto is said to have had a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the U.S. during her visit to Washington, D.C. in 1995.[5].
In 1996, Pakistan's Intelligence Agency, FIA, started a secret war against islamic Extremist in Pakistan under the leadership of Rehman Malik. According to sources, FIA contacted Israeli intelligence agency Mossad to help and send its officers to investigate the Islamic extremist in Pakistan. This action dismayed many religious factors in Pakistan as well as ISI.
In 1998, Pakistani delegation to the United Nations met with Israeli UN delegation, shortly after Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests. Pakistan assured Israel that it will never transfer nuclear technology to Iran or any other state.
In 2001, Pakistan via ISI, passed intelligence about the Gulf States and the nuclear ambitions of Iran and Libya, whose programs Pakistani scientists had helped to build[5].
In 2002, Pakistani tennis player Aisam-ul-Haq Qureshi teamed up with Amir Hadad of Israel during Wimbledon and US Open tournaments in 2002.
In 2003, President Pervez Musharraf raised the issue of possible diplomatic relations with Israel,[6]
In 2005 the foreign ministers of the two countries held talks for the first time.[7] However, following the meeting Musharraf said Pakistan will not recognise the state of Israel until an independent Palestinian state is established,[8] - although, according to Musharraf, Pakistan will eventually recognize Israel.[9]


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## Tajdar adil

israel is our enemy and we dont israeli friendship...

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

It is nt Israel... Its occupied Palestine

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Tajdar adil said:


> In 1947, media reports the first contact between Pakistan and Israel were made in early days of Pakistan's independence, when Israeli Prime minister David Ben-Gurion sent a secret message by phone to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah to recognize Israel. But Jinnah did not give any particular response to Israel.
> In the 1967 6-Day War, in which Israel decisively defeated the Arabs, Pakistani pilots, using Iraqi, Jordanian and Egyptian aircraft shot down 10 Israeli aircraft without losing any from their side. [3]
> In 1973, the sixteen of Pakistan Air Force's fighter pilots volunteered in Yom Kippur War. During the conflict, PAF did not lose a single pilot whereas PAF pilots shot down 3 Israeli aircraft. Nur Khan, who was the Wing Commander received praised from Israeli President Ezer Weizman who wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".
> In the 1980's, during the Soviet-Afghan War, Pakistani-based intelligence ISI and Israeli intelligence Mossad along with the CIA, ran a covert operation in Afghanistan to remove the Soviets from the country. Israel and Pakistan also had high-level dealings through their powerful intelligence agencies which included military dealings.[4]. Israel also supported Pakistan by providing Soviet weapons to Pakistan during 1980s which were seized after invading Lebanon.
> In 1981 After Israel's attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactors in the 1980s, a similar plan to attack Pakistan's Kahuta Research facility by using Indian airfields was foiled, when the Pakistan Air Force got alerted beforehand, and took preventative measures.
> In 1993, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto, along with her then-Director-General of Military Operations, Pervez Musharraf, had intensified the ISI's liaison with Mossad in 1993. Bhutto is said to have had a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the U.S. during her visit to Washington, D.C. in 1995.[5].
> In 1996, Pakistan's Intelligence Agency, FIA, started a secret war against islamic Extremist in Pakistan under the leadership of Rehman Malik. According to sources, FIA contacted Israeli intelligence agency Mossad to help and send its officers to investigate the Islamic extremist in Pakistan. This action dismayed many religious factors in Pakistan as well as ISI.
> In 1998, Pakistani delegation to the United Nations met with Israeli UN delegation, shortly after Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests. Pakistan assured Israel that it will never transfer nuclear technology to Iran or any other state.
> In 2001, Pakistan via ISI, passed intelligence about the Gulf States and the nuclear ambitions of Iran and Libya, whose programs Pakistani scientists had helped to build[5].
> In 2002, Pakistani tennis player Aisam-ul-Haq Qureshi teamed up with Amir Hadad of Israel during Wimbledon and US Open tournaments in 2002.
> In 2003, President Pervez Musharraf raised the issue of possible diplomatic relations with Israel,[6]
> In 2005 the foreign ministers of the two countries held talks for the first time.[7] However, following the meeting Musharraf said Pakistan will not recognise the state of Israel until an independent Palestinian state is established,[8] - although, according to Musharraf, Pakistan will eventually recognize Israel.[9]



Does anyone has any doubt left in their minds that Musharaf has been the worst leader of Pakistan? Such blatant treason... If only it had been from a stupid civilian lackey of the west instead of a military man like him... Pakistan will *never* recognize the illegitimate zionist state and will eventually play a crucial role in its ultimate demise... 

Pakistan should prepare against Israel because after Iran falls, they will start their final plans against Pakistan...

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## Vajra_Yuddh

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Does anyone has any doubt left in their minds that Musharaf has been the worst leader of Pakistan? Such blatant treason... If only it had been from a stupid civilian lackey of the west instead of a military man like him... Pakistan will *never* recognize the illegitimate zionist state and will eventually play a crucial role in its ultimate demise...
> 
> Pakistan should prepare against Israel because after Iran falls, they will start their final plans against Pakistan...


Why are you talking as if Iran is on the verge of war? No formal skirmishes have taken place and while the leaders of that country will say a lot of things, neither country will ever start a war. The region is such a domino (west asia and middle east) that if 1 country is in trouble, it becomes a chain reaction (remember 1991 gulf war). 

The region is too unstable for any war to last so there will be a fast international mediation in case even the smallest skirmish occurs.

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## silent hawk

*PAF is prepared*






*The Pakistani Air Force is the only airforce in the world whose pilots have a superior kill ratio against Israeli pilots*

There have been atleast four occasions where Israel tried to carry out an Iraq type of attack on our nuclear facility. Due to the prompt action of PAF these attacks were repulsed.

The PAF has been , is and will always be ready to defend PAKISTAN

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## Storm Force

The entire Arab world has tried to take on Israel for 50 years. Half a dozen nations with ten times the WEALTH of pakistan. 5 times the air power and 6 land armies. 

Yet Israel has kicked *** every single time. 

Israel is very rich highly intelligent first world military power. Pakistan is a poor devel;oping country. 

DONT MAKE THE MISTAKE of making Israel an enemy even india would lose to Israel.


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## Bhim

Storm Force said:


> B]even india would lose to Israel[/B].




Helloooooo, India is not in the match..
Don't get carried away by emotions, reply sensibly...


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## r4rehan

Conqueror said:


> Quraan - Aal-e-Imran, verse No. 148-149.
> &#1605;&#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;! &#1575;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1575;&#1601;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746; &#1578;&#1608; &#1608;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1657;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1572;&#1722; &#1662;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585; (&#1605;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585 &#1583;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1576;&#1681;&#1746; &#1582;&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1681; &#1580;&#1575;&#1572; &#1711;&#1746; (&#65279;&#1777;&#1780;&#1785;&#65279 (&#1740;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722 &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578;&#1585; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746;
> 
> No my friend, we are better off without making friendship with Israel and expecting any assistance in our defense from them. God has stated in the book and there is no one wiser than God.



<(_|_)| AKBAR

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## silent hawk

Storm Force said:


> The entire Arab world has tried to take on Israel for 50 years. Half a dozen nations with ten times the WEALTH of pakistan. 5 times the air power and 6 land armies.
> 
> Yet Israel has kicked *** every single time.
> 
> Israel is very rich highly intelligent first world military power. Pakistan is a poor devel;oping country.
> 
> DONT MAKE THE MISTAKE of making Israel an enemy even india would lose to Israel.



*Israel is an enemy* at least on this issue there is little room for debate. The primary threat to Isreal is from Islamic states and it is a fact that Pakistan is one of the most powerful Islamic States in terms of Military power.

All battles are not fought in the battlefield

Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Sun Tzu "The Art of War"

The fact is that we became a nuclear power and Israel was not able to stop us.







It is not that the did not try. On multiple occasions they tried to carry out an Iraq type of strike on our nuclear Facility. PAF has a complete contingency plan to counter any such Israeli attempt. In 1993 this plan went into action PAF was warned by a friendly Arab state. Before the Israeli Mass raid could enter, PAF had more that 100 aircrafts airborne. The Israeli raid turned back just short of Baluchistan. They were picked up by our radars.

In May 1998 the Israeli's actually positioned aircrafts in India to prevent us from becomming a nuclear power. It was the operational readiness of PAF that kept them away.

*If the Israeli's are as capablle as they claim they are why did they not take on us in May 1998*


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## rohailmalhi

Storm Force said:


> The entire Arab world has tried to take on Israel for 50 years. Half a dozen nations with ten times the WEALTH of pakistan. 5 times the air power and 6 land armies.
> 
> Yet Israel has kicked *** every single time.
> 
> Israel is very rich highly intelligent first world military power. Pakistan is a poor devel;oping country.
> 
> DONT MAKE THE MISTAKE of making Israel an enemy even india would lose to Israel.



U want to be scared of israel no problem but i think they are not god .
Remember wht happened with then in lebonon .World most intelligent ,powerful , worderful and whatever nation on its feet .
and tht was just Hizbullah not Pak army .
I am suggesting attacking israel or sumthing but im saying is we as pakistani and as muslims are not even of anyone except Allah.if they attack us then world will see wht happens ............


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> The entire Arab world has tried to take on Israel for 50 years. Half a dozen nations with ten times the WEALTH of pakistan. 5 times the air power and 6 land armies.
> 
> Yet Israel has kicked *** every single time.
> 
> Israel is very rich highly intelligent first world military power. Pakistan is a poor devel;oping country.
> 
> DONT MAKE THE MISTAKE of making Israel an enemy even india would lose to Israel.



i agree that due to their small size and their disadvantage, the israelis ended up fighting the most sensibly and efficiently...nobody is under-estimating their military prowess....you cant deny their military advancement, thanks to the unwavered and blind support of israel --govt. and private donations

you will probably bring up aid to Pakistan which you cant really call aid since it doesnt cover the losses incurred on the country; whereas israel has a highly educated and well of population but even then they get billions of dollars in aid; not to mention free of cost military equipment and hardware --with the mere flick of a pen

I do hope one day we can establish ties with israel as we could gain from them --especially in terms of high technology sectors like defence and IT.....however, it will be hard to ''sell'' that idea as long as Palestine issue remains unresolved --with no end in sight either.


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## Vajra_Yuddh

Why not have a poll regarding how many people in &#37; support warming ties with Israel and how many are against it? It will be a nice finishing touch to this thread.


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## PakSher

Good trick by Indians on the forum tot start the tensions between Israel and Pakistan. This is not going to happen since most of our arsenal is pointing towards India. Keep trying.

We are not going to be like Nepal or Bhutan who India has by the balls. Keep trying but you manipulation will not work..............

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

Indians keep brown nosing Israel and it will be just fine.


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## MAFIAN GOD

^^^
Can you explain why Israel will have relations with Pakistan?
I don't think that they will lose India as a friend and customer for their defence systems.Also they can have the example of F-16 losing a big contract in India.
Israel don't want to lose Billion $ from India for Million $ from Pakistan.
Besides religions do matter here.

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## LeGenD

rohailmalhi said:


> U want to be scared of israel no problem but i think they are not god .
> Remember wht happened with then in lebonon .World most intelligent ,powerful , worderful and whatever nation on its feet .
> and tht was just Hizbullah not Pak army .
> I am suggesting attacking israel or sumthing but im saying is we as pakistani and as muslims are not even of anyone except Allah.if they attack us then world will see wht happens ............


You are comparing apples with oranges here.

Hezbollah is a Taliban like group. It is not a proper military force. More importantly, Hezbollah is an ideology. During war, groups like these can easily hide within local population to escape devastation.

Why was Labanese army not doing anything to stop Israeli invasion? Answer is simple: It was powerless. We all know very well that how much tense elected Lebanese leader was during the war. He even cried.

Also, world was putting pressure on Israel to end its campaign against Hezbollah.

Israeli military is highly professional and probably the strongest in the middle-east. We should not under-estimate its military might.

However, we need to keep our eyes open.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

in a purely military sense, Hezbollah is better trained and better equipped than talebans --though the latter are better in guerilla combat

Hezbollah is almost like a conventional army, though they do employ some guerilla tactics. Both rely on strong ground intel, informers, etc. as they have no air or sea capabilities


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## rohailmalhi

LeGenD said:


> You are comparing apples with oranges here.
> 
> Hezbollah is a Taliban like group. It is not a proper military force. More importantly, Hezbollah is an ideology. During war, groups like these can easily hide within local population to escape devastation.
> 
> Why was Labanese army not doing anything to stop Israeli invasion? Answer is simple: It was powerless. We all know very well that how much tense elected Lebanese leader was during the war. He even cried.
> 
> Also, world was putting pressure on Israel to end its campaign against Hezbollah.
> 
> Israeli military is highly professional and probably the strongest in the middle-east. We should not under-estimate its military might.
> 
> However, we need to keep our eyes open.



No doubt israel is higly professional army and same is the case with talibans and see wht is Nato forces are going through in afghanistan.
I think Pak Army is better than them coz we did operation in swat against these foreign agents and make them run away or kill them .

and one more thing they are very professional but we are no less than them we are equally and in sum cases more better than them.......

Long Live Pakistan 
Long live Pak Army


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## Vajra_Yuddh

> We are not going to be like Nepal or *Bhutan[/B**] who India has by the balls.*


*

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that people can have good ties with us without having to police around the world for religion? I know it is frustrating but frustration cannot be washed away with false knowledge and lies.

Bhutan and Nepal to us are the same as what Oman, UAE, Kuwait etc are to Saudi or what Turkey is for you guys. We have same cultural, customary and traditional concepts as they do which is why Bhutan and Nepal are the only 2 countries that have Open Border policy with us. 

Trust me; I am Bhutanese from my mother's side. I would know what it is like to be on either side of the border. India doesn't hold anyone "by the b****". We simply have ties so deep that even a few quarrels don't really matter to us much. After all, siblings also fight don't they.*

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## Vajra_Yuddh

> During war, groups like these can easily hide within local population to escape devastation.



This too depends on what type of war it is; example if it came down to the fighting country's serious condition, it then the militants are also done for since the attacking military will indiscriminately bomb. 

This is the very reason why Taliban are surviving; If they had caused a major NBC attack in US, then US won't have even sent its ground troops for invasion. It would be an all out carpet bombing through the entire length and breadth of the country till nothing is left.


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## A1Kaid

Pakistan and Israel have a lot in common.

Shortly after WWII the people of Pakistan and Israel fled persecution and violence. The Pakistanis fleeing the savage Hindus and Sikhs, The Jews fleeing the Holocaust and pogroms of Europe. Both nations were established a few years after WWII.

Soon as independence both Pakistanis and Israelis were forced into War both fought ferociously for what both believed in. Pakistan and Israel are the only two states established based on religious identity and ideology. Both nations patriotic and pro-military.

Both nations also have large enemie(s) to the East fighting numerically superior forces. Both fight enemies which are many times larger than themselves and both have managed to defend and survive time after time.


Whether you are an angry Pakistani who hates Israel or whether you are an angry Israeli that hates Pakistan


All I ask is that you respect this shared and common history.

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## PakSher

If Arabs have improved relations with Israel, so why not Pakistan. Pakistan and Israel have a lot in common and can have relations for mutual benefit.

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## Ganguly

A1Kaid said:


> Pakistan and Israel have a lot in common.
> 
> *Pakistan and Israel are the only two states established based on religious identity and ideology. *



This is the only reason why good relationship is difficult between Pakistan & Israel.


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## TOPGUN

A1Kaid said:


> Pakistan and Israel have a lot in common.
> 
> Shortly after WWII the people of Pakistan and Israel fled persecution and violence. The Pakistanis fleeing the savage Hindus and Sikhs, The Jews fleeing the Holocaust and pogroms of Europe. Both nations were established a few years after WWII.
> 
> Soon as independence both Pakistanis and Israelis were forced into War both fought ferociously for what both believed in. Pakistan and Israel are the only two states established based on religious identity and ideology. Both nations patriotic and pro-military.
> 
> Both nations also have large enemie(s) to the East fighting numerically superior forces. Both fight enemies which are many times larger than themselves and both have managed to defend and survive time after time.
> 
> 
> Whether you are an angry Pakistani who hates Israel or whether you are an angry Israeli that hates Pakistan
> 
> 
> All I ask is that you respect this shared and common history.




Such great words came out of you i admire that in you and so true as well i personally have no prob's with jews infact have few friends that are american jews and even some old friends from college which were israeli and we got all just fine .. i sure hope that soon one day we can live in peace what you have stated today really should open some eyes and ears thankyou for the wonderful underlined post and mind you we are not all haters GOD bless you.

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## PakSher

Ganguly said:


> This is the only reason why good relationship is difficult between Pakistan & Israel.



Your opinion is incorrect. Pakistan already has back door diplomatic relations with Israel for the last 10+ years and the relations continue to improve. Though Indians would like the Pakistan-Israel relations to not improve, but that is not something Indians are in a position to decide.


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## Bhim

How absurd, India never had or has any intention to not allow Israel Pakistan friendship, as a matter of fact who are we to enforce such decision on them?
It would be in our interest if you have good relations with Israel and with us also, but you guys keep shying away with one or the other pretext.

Finally lets see how long your new found love for Israel lasts, I bet you all would be the first to start accusing and abusing it for no reason or fault of its.

As a pre requisite to friendship start developing faith and trust in your friends believe what all they do is correct, and dont just get carried away by emotions and start throwing tantrums.

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## Vajra_Yuddh

PakSher said:


> Your opinion is incorrect. Pakistan already has back door diplomatic relations with Israel for the last 10+ years and the relations continue to improve. Though Indians would like the Pakistan-Israel relations to not improve, but that is not something Indians are in a position to decide.


Let us see on that shall we? Politically you can never have ties with Israel for the fear of internal backlash. Turkey a far more modern and liberal country than Pakistan is on collision course with them. It would be a miracle if you can secure an open handshake with them.

Give all the try you got. We don't mind watching.


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## Dalai Lama

Hi guys I am a new member here. I've been reading a lot of forum posts over the last few weeks and I have finally decided to become a member. It's an honour to be a part of your community!

@TOPIC



pak-yes said:


> well although it is also one of the reasons.but still you you allocate way more on defense than is required and because of you we also remain poor.




I beg to differ pak-yes, India's military expenditure as percentage of GDP in 2008 was approximately 2.5% as opposed to Pakistan's 3.3%.


I was going to post a link but I'am not allowed since I am a new member but you can always google "military expenditure as percentage of GDP" if you want.

Thank you in advance!

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## Storm Force

I love how so many Pakistanis are wishing & wanting to improve relations with Israel.

Its like a begrudging RESPECT & definitely fear of the impressive Israeli military and technology capability. 

Wat irks the Pakistanis most s that the Israeli are india biggest military partner after Russia and more than happy to aid india in any war situation thru hitech weaopons supplies, and war fighting techniques and satalite real time intel. 

There are over 150 nations in the world that Pakistan could discuss improving relations with.

YET every single PAK DEFENSE forum talks about how can we get closer o Israel.

* " This is wat i call respect" of a powerful nation*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the only issue is Palestine, sir. 

it's nothing personal

though in the past there have been incidents which made aspects personal.....we sent pilots to Arab Air Forces to shoot down israeli aircrafts; and israelis were considering a plot (which could have seen fruition had it not been for our armed forces and intelligence services which picked up the signals) to destroy or disable Khan Research Labs


its just politics; it is the qaum that delves itself on emotion


I am not ashamed to admit that once Palestine issue (as well as Golan Heights/Shebba Farms issues) are solved fairly --which i dont see happening anytime soon -- Pakistan should by all means open diplomatic/military relations with israel


again --- nothing personal. They arent necessarily an ENEMY of Pakistan, though they are arming some of our adversaries


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## Storm Force

Like i said Abu. 

Its Israel massive multui billion $$$$ defense deals in the last 5-10 years that are worrying the Pakistanis. 

It is a fear factor. 

The israelis have the most powerful military in the entire middle east.

They are india,s strategic military ally. 

Why is there no thread opened about relations with Nepal, or Burma, or Yemen. They are all far closer to the indo pak region.

ITS FEAR and respect of the highly intelligent well equipped ISRAELI MILITARY 

OF COURSE ITS PERSONAL


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## Irfan Baloch

Storm Force said:


> Wat irks the Pakistanis most s that the Israeli are india biggest military partner after Russia
> 
> * " This is wat i call respect" of a powerful nation*



on the contrary my son.. it actually irks the likes of you that why there is even a discussion in Pakistan about recognising Israel

its a pitty that being a citizen of such a populous and big country people like you have a very tiny heart.

like already pointed out to your dimwitted self its not thing personal, its business stupid. what Israel is doing with you is not out of your love of Holy cow but how they can use you to their advantage

another point to note my son is that they are even a bigger partner to China.. that would really causes *"irritable bowel syndrome"* to Indian establishment

the problem is their unfair treatement of Palestine. once that is resolved its all sweet

oh by the way, Muslims and Jews have a very similar religion and have same eating preferences so dont cry a river. like Egypt, Turkey and Jordon are also friends with Israel and that again is not out of Bollywoood love that you are fantasizing my simpleton child... its practical and pure business.

Pakistan and Israel are already in contact via back channels. some of our agriculture produce like fruits already make their way to Israel. once the Jewsish state and Palestine find a workable solution then our relations will go even further

Do I really need to bust your military realtions boast? really?
my son they have far more and extensive military cooperation with China.. India is a new kid in the block dont get too excited.
its not Bollywood love story its reality its business stupid.

sleep tight my child

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> Like i said Abu.
> 
> Its Israel massive multui billion $$$$ defense deals in the last 5-10 years that are worrying the Pakistanis



keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.......the average Pakistani could care damn less what they do

it is the actions against Palestinians and other neighbours that perturbs Pakistanis. That is a moral standpoint. Kind of like how Pakistanis feel when Kashmiris are killed and humiliated by indian occupational forces (sissies)




> It is a fear factor.
> 
> The israelis have the most powerful military in the entire middle east.



Pakistan isn't even in the middle east



> They are india,s strategic military ally.



business is business; why should i blink an eye




> Why is there no thread opened about relations with Nepal, or Burma, or Yemen. They are all far closer to the indo pak region.



maybe there aren't, maybe there are.....And if not, feel free to open such a thread then




> ITS FEAR and respect of the highly intelligent well equipped ISRAELI MILITARY



again, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better......reality on the ground is much different

by the way, weren't these highly intelligent & well equipped forces being manhandled by unarmed civilian activists on Mavi Marmara?

(lets not even talk about Hezbollah ops in 2006)



















> OF COURSE ITS PERSONAL



only if you are an overly-emotional and sensitive person


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## Storm Force

Real Reason for Constant reference to Israel by Pakistan 

Indo-Israeli relations & its effects on Pak

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## CaptainPrice

Storm Force said:


> 63 Pages of Pakistan & Israel.
> 
> ITS OBVIOUSLY A VERY HOT TOPIC.



For sure! By the way my idea of it is Israel starting a fight with pakistan without a reason Since Israel is much stronger than any country near it .I think Israel can win.But the diffrence that pakistan makes is the population.Pakistan has near 200million population that Israel has one near 8 million.So if we consider that "NONE" country helps pakistan and israel Pakistan would win.But with an allied war i'd be worried about pakistan.


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## Spitfighter

Vajra_Yuddh said:


> Why is it so difficult for you to accept that people can have good ties with us without having to police around the world for religion? I know it is frustrating but frustration cannot be washed away with false knowledge and lies.
> 
> *Bhutan and Nepal to us are the same as what Oman, UAE, Kuwait etc are to Saudi or what Turkey is for you guys. We have same cultural, customary and traditional concepts as they do which is why Bhutan and Nepal are the only 2 countries that have Open Border policy with us.
> *
> Trust me; I am Bhutanese from my mother's side. I would know what it is like to be on either side of the border. India doesn't hold anyone "by the b****". We simply have ties so deep that even a few quarrels don't really matter to us much. After all, siblings also fight don't they.



If anything Nepal/Bhutan is to us what Afghanistan is to them. All that the Pakistanis share with the Arabs and Turks is religion. I've yet to come across an Arab who can find any common ground with a Pakistani besides Islam of course. Our Pakistani friends have sought to differentiate themselves from us and over the course of history that definition has led to an ever increasing emphasis on religion, hence the 'tilt' towards middle east. In practical terms, barring the scant few who live in KP and Balochistan, they have a lot more in common with us than they can ever hope to have with anyone else. Nepal and Bhutan on the other hand have been our neighbors for centuries, our ties date back thousands of years with shared language, culture and traditions. 

When it comes to Israel and Pakistan, Pakistan simply can't risk establishing ties with the Israelis because of the backlash they'll face from the Arab world. Israel too would never indulge in a strategic partnership with Pakistan, or any other Muslim nation (for the foreseeable future). 

Edit: Turkey of course is a NATO member, so they're the obvious exception.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

israel doesnt even have the capacity on its own to attack Pakistan; nor does it have the logistical route unless the indians give them bases

and we already know what happened the last time we uncovered such a plot.....the indians looked like absolute fools, the israelis retreated

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## Spitfighter

Storm Force said:


> Real Reason for Constant reference to Israel by Pakistan
> 
> Indo-Israeli relations & its effects on Pak



Oh certainly, but wouldn't we be concerned if our neighbor was being armed with some of the most sophisticated weapons on the planet?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Spitfighter said:


> When it comes to Israel and Pakistan, Pakistan simply can't risk establishing ties with the Israelis because of the backlash they'll face from the Arab world. Israel too would never indulge in a strategic partnership with Pakistan, or any other Muslim nation (for the foreseeable future).
> 
> Edit: Turkey of course is a NATO member, so they're the obvious exception



It is in israel's interests to build some common ground with the Muslim world.....in my short period in DC I've spoken to like-minded israelis who feel that israel itself has become an over-populated prison. They feel boxed in, and would prefer good relations with their neighbours.

Pakistan is far from being a neighbour; they represent no immediate threat to us, and vice versa



but it seems some people on here like to sensationalize a topic rather than speak objectively

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## A1Kaid

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


Israel sees a partnership with Pakistan as critical in establishing better ties with Muslim countries.

Israel and Pakistan have discreet diplomatic ties; and diplomats from both countries have had cordial meetings. This very fact alone burns some people. If Israel wants to seek and explore better ties with Pakistan, then no country including India can dictate to Israel who it can and cannot have ties with.


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## A1Kaid

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> It is in israel's interests to build some common ground with the Muslim world.....in my short period in DC I've spoken to like-minded israelis who feel that israel itself has become an over-populated prison. They feel boxed in, and would prefer good relations with their neighbours.
> 
> Pakistan is far from being a neighbour; they represent no immediate threat to us, and vice versa
> 
> 
> 
> but it seems some people on here like to sensationalize a topic rather than speak objectively




I have personally encountered Indian attitude, in where Indians attempt to get Israeli or a Jew to hate Pakistan. India thinks they can get Israel in it's camp, they are wrong. Israel has no interest in joining India in it's conflict against Pakistan.

So don't be surprised when certain people try to foment tension between Israel and Pakistan.


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## AUz

Storm Force said:


> I love how so many Pakistanis are wishing & wanting to improve relations with Israel.
> 
> Its like a begrudging RESPECT & *definitely fear of the impressive Israeli military and technology capability.
> *
> Wat irks the Pakistanis most s that the Israeli are india biggest military partner after Russia and more than happy to aid india in any war situation thru hitech weaopons supplies, and war fighting techniques and satalite real time intel.
> 
> There are over 150 nations in the world that Pakistan could discuss improving relations with.
> 
> YET every single PAK DEFENSE forum talks about how can we get closer o Israel.
> 
> * " This is wat i call respect" of a powerful nation*



...Go,you need a good sleep child.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

go pay a visit to israeli defence forum.....i have seen indian post topics about Pakistani & ISI ''terrorism'' and the only people who reply or pay any attention at all to those topics (if at all) are indians themselves....i think they could care damn less about Pakistani or indian politics as we are in a different region with different realities

therefore i can see what you are talking about


again --- apart from Palestine issue, Pakistan has no beef or animosity against israel......Pakistan & israel have some interesting commonalities i think. Both countries have mixed opinions on how they should handle foreign policy --and ultimately it is the civilians and ''popular opinion'' which is an impediment to any major shift in paradigm or approach

we shouldnt blindly extend an olive branch; especially with the current environment of checkpoints and illegal settlements building......but i do think in my humble opinion some form of back-channel talks and purely professional (non-political) meetings and delegation should take place.


Azerbaijan and Turkiye do it. Like them, we are non-Arab Muslim countries.


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## unicorn

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> go pay a visit to israeli defence forum.....i have seen indian post topics about Pakistani & ISI ''terrorism'' and the only people who reply or pay any attention at all to those topics (if at all) are indians themselves....i think they could care damn less about Pakistani or indian politics as we are in a different region with different realities
> 
> therefore i can see what you are talking about
> 
> 
> again --- apart from Palestine issue, Pakistan has no beef or animosity against israel......Pakistan & israel have some interesting commonalities i think. Both countries have mixed opinions on how they should handle foreign policy --and ultimately it is the civilians and ''popular opinion'' which is an impediment to any major shift in paradigm or approach
> 
> we shouldnt blindly extend an olive branch; especially with the current environment of checkpoints and illegal settlements building......but i do think in my humble opinion some form of back-channel talks and purely professional (non-political) meetings and delegation should take place.
> 
> 
> Azerbaijan and Turkiye do it. Like them, we are non-Arab Muslim countries.



What commonalities you are actually pointing at?


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## unicorn

A1Kaid said:


> I have personally encountered Indian attitude, in where Indians attempt to get Israeli or a Jew to hate Pakistan. India thinks they can get Israel in it's camp, they are wrong. Israel has no interest in joining India in it's conflict against Pakistan.
> 
> So don't be surprised when certain people try to foment tension between Israel and Pakistan.




So why did Israel help Indian forces in the Kargil war as their is no reason for them to help?


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## Spitfighter

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> *It is in israel's interests to build some common ground with the Muslim world*.....in my short period in DC I've spoken to like-minded israelis who feel that israel itself has become an over-populated prison. They feel boxed in, and would prefer good relations with their neighbours.
> Pakistan is far from being a neighbour; they represent no immediate threat to us, and vice versa
> but it seems some people on here like to sensationalize a topic rather than speak objectively



I agree, no country can prosper if it has enemies in its own backyard and in that respect it certainly is in Israel's interest to reach out to the Muslim world and normalize its relations like it has with Egypt. However, I was talking about a comprehensive strategic alliance, like the one India and Israel have,

BBC NEWS | South Asia | India launches Israeli satellite

I sincerely doubt Israel would embark on any such venture with a Muslim nation in the near future, what do you think?

Edit: Also, in practical terms, as I mentioned earlier, Pakistan will not establish ties with Israel until and unless the GCC countries recognize Israel.


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## Irfan Baloch

A1Kaid said:


> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> 
> Israel sees a partnership with Pakistan as critical in establishing better ties with Muslim countries.
> 
> Israel and Pakistan have discreet diplomatic ties; and diplomats from both countries have had cordial meetings. This very fact alone burns some people. If Israel wants to seek and explore better ties with Pakistan, then no country including India can dictate to Israel who it can and cannot have ties with.



Paksitan and Israel are both founded on the basis of the religon
whether their neighbour like it or not but thats a fact
there are too many things that are common among us that its hard to ignore
in the end its all about mutual benifit if it helps both then most welcome

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## Abu Zolfiqar

unicorn said:


> What commonalities you are actually pointing at?



let me pose your question with a simple question:


isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??

of course methods of ''implementation'' have --in the past and in current times --been nothing short of inhumane and ILLEGAL; but with that said, and from a purely professional standpoint, Palestine isn't our fight.

As Muslims, it is our duty to be united and provide support to them whenever and however. But as Pakistanis, we need to think about non-aggression and putting all options on the table, rather than limiting ourselves. We have one primary adversary (unfortunately thats how it is), and that is to the east.






in fact, i will be bold and say publicly that Jews are like cousins to Muslims. Zionist ideology is not Jewish ideology, it is a political nationalist ideology which only uses religion for political purposes (kind of like what Al qaeda initially did in Persian Gulf especially KSA)


there is quite a lot in common between both faiths; some people are just scared to acknowledge or accept it.


Put an Orthodox Muslim and an Orthodox Jew in the same room, give them the full ''chai / mitthai'' package --let them talk things through and they will realize they share the EXACT same values on almost everything


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## Irfan Baloch

Spitfighter said:


> I
> 
> I sincerely doubt Israel would embark on any such venture with a Muslim nation in the near future, what do you think?
> .



Turkey, Egypt and Jordon are all Muslim countries
pakistan already has back door duplomacy channel established
if there is a mutual benifit they both will proceed if not then it can wait untill the time is right. 
as far as rest of the Muslim countries are concerned most of its neighbours have deplomatic and working relations with it so there is no special prevention on Pakistan.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Spitfighter said:


> Edit: Also, in practical terms, as I mentioned earlier, Pakistan will not establish ties with Israel until and unless the GCC countries recognize Israel.



Jinnah Saab, Father of our Pakistan Nation independently took the decision NOT to recognize israel simply due to the Palestine land issue

he did not consult with the khaleejys.....He had the option, as inevitably both countries Pakistan & israel were akwardly looking at eachother and trying to figure out what to do



for the record, it is already known that UAE and KSA regularly have back-channel diplomacy with the israelis; however it is not made public due to the possible negative reaction 


common knowledge


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Irfan Baloch said:


> Turkey, Egypt and Jordon are all Muslim countries
> pakistan already has back door duplomacy channel established
> if there is a mutual benifit they both will proceed if not then it can wait untill the time is right.
> as far as rest of the Muslim countries are concerned most of its neighbours have deplomatic and working relations with it so there is no special prevention on Pakistan.



a good example is during the jihad against the soviets in Afghanistan

this was a time when Jews Muslims & Christians united and mobilized efforts to crush the soviet empire


Khyber Pakhtunkhwa + FATA was AWASH with Mossad, ISI, CIA and other agency operatives from different countries

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## waz

Pakistan should establish dialogue with the Israelis and at least we could help the situation in Palestine i.e. through negotiation, acting as a third party. The Palestinians should be given their rights and they can live in a two state system, in perfect solidarity with the Jewish people. 

Virtually all Israelis want peace. Having spoken to so many all they want to do is live their lives and make sure their children's futures are secure. 

For centuries as far as Islamic records go back Muslims and our Jewish cousins have lived side by side and in peace. For instance the Ottoman empire welcomed masses of Jewish refugees to their territories after they were expelled from Europe. There are many other examples of cooperation that can be listed.

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## Irfan Baloch

unicorn said:


> What commonalities you are actually pointing at?



the biggest one is the basis of the existance was religion
the other one is we share the same food preferences (dont eat prok, blood etc) and for a Muslim it is mandatory to belive in all Israeli prophets Ibrahim, Moses, Yousaf etc all are celebrated Prophets (peace be upon them) of Jews and Muslims.

our Prophet PBUH His family had business with them and Ali even worked for a Jew landord while he himself was the Caliph.
other commonalities are saving Jews from Christian persecution during crusades and during seond world war while Nazi German campaign in Africa.

the only nag here is the unfair treatement of Palestinian people

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## unicorn

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> let me pose your question with a simple question:
> 
> 
> isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??
> 
> of course methods of ''implementation'' have --in the past and in current times --been nothing short of inhumane and ILLEGAL; but with that said, and from a purely professional standpoint, Palestine isn't our fight.
> 
> As Muslims, it is our duty to be united and provide support to them whenever and however. But as Pakistanis, we need to think about non-aggression and putting all options on the table, rather than limiting ourselves. We have one primary adversary (unfortunately thats how it is), and that is to the east.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in fact, i will be bold and say publicly that Jews are like cousins to Muslims. Zionist ideology is not Jewish ideology, it is a political nationalist ideology which only uses religion for political purposes (kind of like what Al qaeda initially did in Persian Gulf especially KSA)
> 
> 
> there is quite a lot in common between both faiths; some people are just scared to acknowledge or accept it.
> 
> 
> Put an Orthodox Muslim and an Orthodox Jew in the same room, give them the full ''chai / mitthai'' package --let them talk things through and they will realize they share the EXACT same values on almost everything



Congratulations!
Very unsmartly you bypass my question.
Now come to your point which you make here.First point that you make is that palestine is not our fight.What makes you say that religion or ethics.If religion than you are wrong.But if your ethics,than definitely those ethics coincide with the religion.
The second point you actually give the commomality about biscuit and tea.
I can tell you the biggest commonality between them and us.They have accepted that there is none but only one God.We also believe that and have faith in it.
And I can tell you what is the biggest difference between them and us is that they have rejected the word of God and we have not.


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## unicorn

Irfan Baloch said:


> the biggest one is the basis of the existance was religion
> the other one is we share the same food preferences (dont eat prok, blood etc) and for a Muslim it is mandatory to belive in all Israeli prophets Ibrahim, Moses, Yousaf etc all are celebrated Prophets (peace be upon them) of Jews and Muslims.
> 
> our Prophet PBUH His family had business with them and Ali even worked for a Jew landord while he himself was the Caliph.
> other commonalities are saving Jews from Christian persecution during crusades and during seond world war while Nazi German campaign in Africa.
> 
> the only nag here is the unfair treatement of Palestinian people



If you are talking about these types of commonalities than what makes it different between us and everybody else.Two eyes two ears one head.If a person acts the same as any other muslim but does't believe in Allah than he is a lot different.
If I look from your perspective than every one share the common ground isn't it .No one is different.But it is faith that makes us different and that is the thing we should be looking for.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

by the same token, very ''unsmartly'' you bypass my question as well 

lines 3-4 of your post i didn't quite get, perhaps you'd care to elaborate further


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## Spitfighter

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> for the record, it is already known that UAE and KSA regularly have *back-channel diplomacy with the israelis*; however it is not *made public due to the possible negative reaction *



My point exactly. Back channel diplomacy is not the same as full fledged diplomatic relations. 



> *made public due to the possible negative reaction *



Precisely why Israel's strongest partners are outside the Muslim world. 

Surprisingly, Pakistanis seem very keen on establishing relations with Israel. I sincerely expected a much more hostile reaction to the prospect. I wonder, does this have anything to do with India's relations with Israel?


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## unicorn

isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??

Pakistanis are not the one to decide that.Pakistani people should only cares about the religion.And religion points that we should deny their homeland which is occupied if you know the history well.


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## Spitfighter

unicorn said:


> If you are talking about these types of commonalities than what makes it different between us and everybody else.Two eyes two ears one head.If a person acts the same as any other muslim but does't believe in Allah than he is a lot different.
> If I look from your perspective than every one share the common ground isn't it .No one is different.But it is faith that makes us different and that is the thing we should be looking for.



From the tone of his posts, it sounds like he's desperately trying to find some common ground so he can have the 'neighbors' believe that Pakistan is still a part of the equation.


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## unicorn

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> by the same token, very ''unsmartly'' you bypass my question as well
> 
> lines 3-4 of your post i didn't quite get, perhaps you'd care to elaborate further



Yes you will definitely not get it because you just live in the wonderland created by your own views.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Spitfighter said:


> My point exactly. Back channel diplomacy is not the same as full fledged diplomatic relations.





> Surprisingly, Pakistanis seem very keen on establishing relations with Israel. I sincerely expected a much more hostile reaction to the prospect.




delve further in and you will see a fine assortment and array of views here......some for it, some against it

I'm not sure if you read or comprehended my past few posts in their entirety. I propose a similar approach (tidbits from KSA, UAE, Azerbaijan, Turkiye etc.) for Pakistan. 

The latter 2 have full diplomatic relations with israel, though more military in nature. We can (and should) do so when the time is right. Until then, I propose that a small delegation meets in Tel Aviv and Islamabad --- purely a professional, gentle-men type atmosphere. We discuss concerns, areas where we can colloborate or agree on (and agree to disagree on in courteous fashion)


i.e. when prospects for a Palestinian state are realized and at least in the closer-than-distant ''offing'' ...........between you and I, I think the Camp David solution was the closest they got and in retrospect, I wish it was accepted by both parties

under the hawkish Netanyahu, i see no immediate relief from status quo at this current time and juncture....but Pakistanis are a patient and observant people, we will watch and see what happens




> I wonder, does this have anything to do with India's relations with Israel?



well i'll be very blunt with you.....they do make some hardware i'd love to get my hands on 


but i think you are inflating the ''importance'' of hindustan here.....we dont base all our decisions on what indian position is or what indian relations are.

we shouldnt even waste our time talking about indian in the very hypothetical scenario that we engage with israelis.......if they provide some defence hardwares or give you a few UAVs for observation (one of which we shot down already ) then so be it



BUSINESS is BUSINESS. In business, there shouldnt be too much emotion or sentiments involved. Only sissies do that stuff. Do israelis arm my enemies? Sure they do.

But then again, Russians are giving me engines for my JF-17 Thunders. Works both ways I guess.

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## Spitfighter

unicorn said:


> isn't it hypocritical for Pakistanis to deny Jews the right to a Jewish (ideological) homeland??
> 
> Pakistanis are not the one to decide that.Pakistani people should only cares about the religion.And religion points that *we should deny their homeland* which is occupied if you know the history well.



I think its important to be practical in today's day and age. You're talking about a developed nation with a very capable military. No one is about to deny them their homeland. I think the focus should be on finding pragmatic solutions rather than fantasizing about another holocaust.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

unicorn said:


> Yes you will definitely not get it because you just live in the wonderland created by your own views.



well I'm sorry you join a forum and expect everyone to conform to your own views, and attempt to debunk (without any real reasoning or examples) that which you take issue with

feel free to ignore my post and simply move on, friend

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## Spitfighter

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> under the *hawkish Netanyahu*, i see no immediate relief from status quo at this current time and juncture....but Pakistanis are a patient and observant people, we will watch and see what happens



I agree, and this just in... 

BBC News - Israel passes bill on withdrawal from land


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## unicorn

Abu Zolfiqar
Don't even bother to answer Indians talking about Israel with us.You will just waist your time.
I know exactly what you are thinking.But one last word you agree with me or not that the fundamental difference between Jew and us is the Faith.The point about commonalities that you tell me not eating pork etc are all I am not denying.I should have not argue with you in the first place brother.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Spitfighter said:


> I think its important to be practical in today's day and age. You're talking about a developed nation with a very capable military. No one is about to deny them their homeland. I think the focus should be on finding pragmatic solutions rather than fantasizing about another holocaust.



I think it is essentially the European countries ---many of which would progress and become industrialist countries today -- which should have ''pocketed'' the responsibility and granted land for an israeli/jewish homeland

it was there where a pan-nationalist / ethno-centric regime drove them out like cattle and/or killed them mercilessly

holocaust was horrible thing that happened


its unfortunatate that Palestinians had to be the ones to suffer and be displaced......but what has happened has happened. You cant just tell them to leave at this point. If you do, be very very very well armed and equipped to deal with it.


pragmatic solution is required.....Camp David was one of them; I personally believe Jerusalem is a holy city for the 3 top faiths of the world. It should be jointly shared and jointly administered.


perhaps overly-idealistic approach, but oh well.....


what i wont state is that Jews should pack up and leave. I wont state it because it is unrealistic and I know it wont happen. Therefore we (THEY) should work with what is given and find a way forward.

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## unicorn

Spitfighter said:


> From the tone of his posts, it sounds like he's desperately trying to find some common ground so he can have the 'neighbors' believe that Pakistan is still a part of the equation.



From the tone of your post it seems you have not sleep for days.Keep your views in your dreams.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

unicorn said:


> Abu Zolfiqar
> Don't even bother to answer Indians talking about Israel with us.You will just waist your time.
> I know exactly what you are thinking.But one last word you agree with me or not that the fundamental difference between Jew and us is the Faith.The point about commonalities that you tell me not eating pork etc are all I am not denying.I should have not argue with you in the first place brother.



of course there are differences.......i simply wanted to point out those crucial commonalities --some of which bear striking resemblance to our own views and approach


more importantly, as Pakistanis I think we must recognize that if Jews want seperate homeland they should get it --as long as it is done in civilized fashion and the mistreatment against Palestinian is done away with. 

we Muslims of subcontinent demanded a seperate homeland and our dream was attained, Alhamdolillah. It was a victory for new Pakistan Nation, victory for Islam. Why should we adopt a double-standards then?


and dont worry, i didnt perceive your post as hostile or argumentative......


regards

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## Irfan Baloch

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> well I'm sorry you join a forum and expect everyone to conform to your own views, and attempt to debunk (without any real reasoning or examples) that which you take issue with
> 
> feel free to ignore my post and simply move on, friend



I didnt even bother reply to Unicorn's post. not sure which part of the world he is living in. it is definately not Pakistan
even a Madrassah student wont have such repulsive & ingorant attitude.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

waz said:


> *Pakistan should establish dialogue with the Israelis and at least we could help the situation in Palestine i.e. through negotiation, acting as a third party. *The Palestinians should be given their rights and they can live in a two state system, in perfect solidarity with the Jewish people.
> 
> Virtually all Israelis want peace. Having spoken to so many all they want to do is live their lives and make sure their children's futures are secure.
> 
> For centuries as far as Islamic records go back Muslims and our Jewish cousins have lived side by side and in peace. For instance the Ottoman empire welcomed masses of Jewish refugees to their territories after they were expelled from Europe. There are many other examples of cooperation that can be listed.




assalam alaikum,

I hear this argument many time that if we establish relation with israel we can help the palestinains. Well since our independence we had relations with america ( actually we r licking their feet ( u can use other words instead will work fine too) ) and we could not help the afghans with all their sacrifices and ours after soviet withdrawl. And when we uplift the sufferings of the kashmiries ( which is our main isssue ) by the help of gr8 relations of U.S. As a matter of fact america is keep pressuring us to be slave of it and its allies ( and u know i m talking about which country). Who can insure us that it wont be the same story with israel. We think of ourself big but we r not as turky which is close to the region then us and has gr8 relations with israel what help to the palestinian they could provide. 
The sending of the freedom caravan was in defiance of the relations and not with the approval of israelies and what happened is history to them. We will make relations with israel now israelies r working behind the scenes then they will be working with diplomatic passports and buisseness visas issured by our embassy from israel. Hope of improving our economic conditions and our stature will be a dream. 
Yes but surely we will loose our moral grounds. NO MONEY NO MORALS WHAT IS LEFT ?

TARIQ


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## Irfan Baloch

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> they will be working with diplomatic passports and buisseness visas issured by our embassy from israel. Hope of improving our economic conditions and our stature will be a dream.
> Yes but surely we will loose our moral grounds. NO MONEY NO MORALS WHAT IS LEFT ?
> 
> TARIQ



if you start hating and dismissing everyone then it is very hard to exist. you need to engage with people who have a differing opinion

the Lal Mosque and taliban version of burn down everything and chop every head is not the solution. how has the present status quo helped the Palestinians?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Irfan Baloch said:


> if you start hating and dismissing everyone then it is very hard to exist. you need to engage with people who have a differing opinion
> 
> the Lal Mosque and taliban version of burn down everything and chop every head is not the solution. how has the present status quo helped the Palestinians?



assalam alaikum,

Thanks for the quick reply where is hate in my posting and dismissing it was a reply to the argument of improving the life of the palestinains through our relations with israel. show me where i showed hate i will oppologize

ppl in their neighborhood live for many years and dont exchange social activity with each other is it bcoz of hate? simply the dont have many thing in common.

I think there is no need of mentioning of lal masjid and burning down or choping of heads coz nobody have called for it.

And about how the present status quo of palestinians help them. I belive u ppl's argument if u improve the present status quo of afghans and kashmiries through our gr8 relations with U.S. Then ur argument will have a base i will keep my mouth shut. 
It is better for us pakistanies to let the palestinians deal with israelies and if they come to a an agreement then we will see.
Regard 

TARIQ


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## A1Kaid

Irfan Baloch said:


> Paksitan and Israel are both founded on the basis of the religon
> whether their neighbour like it or not but thats a fact
> there are too many things that are common among us that its hard to ignore
> in the end its all about mutual benifit if it helps both then most welcome





True, both Israel and Pakistan are founded on a religious identity both founded on "Abrahamic" religions.

Judeaism and Islam actually have a lot in common. Monotheism, belief in the same God, Prophet Abhraham, similar dietary rules, modesty, etc. So there is certainly room for ties and better understanding.

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## PakSher

A1Kaid said:


> True, both Israel and Pakistan are founded on a religious identity both founded on "Abrahamic" religions.
> 
> Judeaism and Islam actually have a lot in common. Monotheism, belief in the same God, Prophet Abhraham, similar dietary rules, modesty, etc. So there is certainly room for ties and better understanding.



Pakistan and Israel both need to have a bi-directional initiative for remove hurdles in having a full diplomatic relationship.

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## Safriz

Pakistan has a history,present and future of being a "Push over" country which easily becomes a tool for other so called Friend countries for fulfilling their desires and benefits without drawing much for herself..
Same can be said about a friendship with Israel.
If we want to forget religion and be done with it then it may be different..Otherwise Israel has too much blood on her hands...and shaking someone's blood stained hand is a bit awkward.We cannot compare ourselves with Jordan and Turkey...those who visited these countries know very well how much islam is left in them,apart of Muslim names.
Like many members already suggested..why not look into making friends with south american countries? such and Brazil and Venezuela? Why go after a dodgy country which has a well documented history of deceit and an ongoing diplomatic strategy of distorting facts for her own benefits....

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Those who think Pakistan will one day have diplomatic ties with Israel should wake up and smell the coffee...

NEVER!!!!


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## LeGenD

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Those who think Pakistan will one day have diplomatic ties with Israel should wake up and smell the coffee...
> 
> NEVER!!!!


Brother, with this kind of attitude, we would get no where. 

Enmity only brings suffering and creates hurdles in the path of progress. We need to wake up to ground realities of this world before it is too late.

We need to create new friends and we need to make progress. Once we become strong, only than world will pay attention to us.

Islam encourages _peace_ and _prosperity_.

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## Safriz

Another thing i will clarify here is that there is a difference between Jew bashing and Israel bashing.Jew bashing for the purpose of hate propagation is wrong and i am against it by all means.Every Jew is not Israeli and every Israeli is not Jew,and they are as humans as we are with all the sentiments and feelings.
In 2008 Gaza conflict when Israelis were shown on world media cheering and jeering while watching phosphorous bombs being dropped on civilians,anti Israeli sentiments ran high..Saying that the UK jewish community..well most of them were against the Israeli army's actions all together..Yet a ssangyong in Manchester where i live was found stained in Pig blood when the Jew worshipers came for their prayers,and the perpetrators were not Muslims but Caucasian Brits who felt sad and angry when they watched charred bodies of children due to Israeli Phosphorous and otherwise indiscriminate bombing...This incident prove sthat its not only muslims who regularly mix anti Israeli sentiments with anti Jewism...although both are two different things...One is acceptable due to the war crimes of the country and the other is totally unacceptable.


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## LeGenD

safriz said:


> If we want to forget religion and be done with it then it may be different..Otherwise Israel has too much blood on her hands...and shaking someone's blood stained hand is a bit awkward.We cannot compare ourselves with Jordan and Turkey...those who visited these countries know very well how much islam is left in them,apart of Muslim names.


And you think that we are very pious and religious? 

The level of _duplicity_ and _corruption_ in this nation is simply mind-boggling. Also, lot of people here have not even read Quran properly.

Seriously, we need to open our eyes. We need to amend ourselves first before talking about others.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

LeGenD said:


> Brother, with this kind of attitude, we would get no where.
> 
> Enmity only brings suffering and creates hurdles in the path of progress. We need to wake up to ground realities of this world before it is too late.
> 
> We need to create new friends and we need to make progress. Once we become strong, only than world will pay attention to us.
> 
> Islam encourages _peace_ and _prosperity_.



Salams Safriz...

It wont happen... Thats all I m saying... Let me give you all a challenge actually... Get it done if you think it can be done and tell me... I ll stop posting out of shame for a full year... 

We dont need Israel to progress yaar... what are you saying??

I think you should go to the first page of this post and you ll see some excellent answers to this issue...


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## Safriz

LeGenD said:


> And you think that we are very pious and religious?
> 
> The level of _duplicity_ and _corruption_ in this nation is simply mind-boggling. Also, lot of people here have not even read Quran properly.
> 
> Seriously, we need to open our eyes. We need to amend ourselves first before talking about others.



I dont know what you are suggesting here...i will let you clarify...

From what i understand..i would say that such friendship wont work for us...we need to build our economy from withing the country...without seeking friendship from any external source..they wont do it for us...we have to..
Israel wont make any difference to us...we will.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Islam does not encourage letting go of Muslim land the way it has happened in Palestine... rather there is promise of punishment for those who do not claim that land back and let go off it for good (like what our governments want us to do)...

Let us let go of Kashmir and India as well... they are doing much better under the government of Hindus and Sikhs...


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## Ganga

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Islam does not encourage letting go of Muslim land the way it has happened in Palestine... rather there is promise of punishment for those who do not claim that land back and let go off it for good (like what our governments want us to do)...
> 
> *Let us let go of Kashmir and India *as well... they are doing much better under the government of Hindus and Sikhs...



So you are saying that India is a Muslim land?


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## LeGenD

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Salams Safriz...
> 
> It wont happen... Thats all I m saying... Let me give you all a challenge actually... Get it done if you think it can be done and tell me... I ll stop posting out of shame for a full year...
> 
> We dont need Israel to progress yaar... what are you saying??
> 
> I think you should go to the first page of this post and you ll see some excellent answers to this issue...


Brother, 

I strongly disagree with the statement that we don't need investment from other nations to make progress. Are we self-sufficient?

Israel is an industrial power. It can invest in our sectors of industry and defence. Look at the case of India and China. Why do they have good ties with Isreal?

It is not just about Israel. My point is applicable to the case of Russia as well.

I am not saying that we take a U-turn in our policy towards Israel within a day. However, I am in favor of making strong amendments within our short-sighted foreign policies which have got us in to big turmoil.

Look at our economic situation. Do you think that we are doing fine? Over 700 industries have stopped functioning in Pakistan over last 20 years. What is this?

As I said, enmity only creates hurdles in the path of progress. It does not helps us in any sense.

Due to our enmity, we have lost East Pakistan. Due to our short-sightedness, we are in an economical turmoil.

Also, have a look at the case of China. That nation also have a history of acting against Islamic elements. 

For an example, read this: BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China 'crushing Muslim Uighurs'

Did we protested over these sensitive matters? Did we asked China to stop? 

We have friendly relations with China and we have reaped lots of rewards in return. Do you get the picture?


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## LeGenD

safriz said:


> I dont know what you are suggesting here...i will let you clarify...
> 
> From what i understand..i would say that such friendship wont work for us...we need to build our economy from withing the country...without seeking friendship from any external source..they wont do it for us...we have to..
> Israel wont make any difference to us...we will.


If we can solve our problems ourselves than why don't we just do it?

Nothing is better than being self-sufficient.


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## CaptainPrice

Ganga said:


> So you are saying that India is a Muslim land?



Mostly, not.But if u consider there are 270+ million muslims live there and it's fun that countries like arabia,turkey have less muslim-pop than that.


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## Safriz

LeGenD said:


> If we can solve our problems ourselves than why don't we just do it?
> 
> Nothing is better than being self-sufficient.



Exactly...agreed.

As you said in a previous post that India and china benefited from Israeli investment...ask yourself a question...can Pakistan benefit from that? Do we have the assurances and infrastructure and above all the political stability for any foreign investor?
Remember when Nawaz sharif lured so many foreign companies to come to pakistan and invest in telecom and transport sector? The world responded..Telips came,Hyundai came,Daewoo came..Then cam eBenazir and just because Nawazsharif had started the projects ..she blocked everything and all the foreign investors lost to much money.
I still remember over a thousand Yellow cabs parked at a Mauripur yard on Hawksbay road...I used to see them parked until all of them rusted,rotted and rendered useless due to Sun and Maritime salty climate of that place...

India and china not only benefited from Israeli investment..they benefited from investors all over the world..because they had the infrastructure and the political stability and assurance we don't have..
Claiming that India and China developed only because Israel invested or because they had Diplomatic ties with Israel is wrong.

Call as many foreign investors as you want,but with such a track record of the country they wont come.

Israel should be the last place in the world we should look for any investment,as it will eventually destabilize and already unstable country.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

LeGend.

We are more than self sufficient... We dont need Israel anyway... Lot of other harmless and genuine countries would do for support and help and co operation...

We only need to sort out the mess that Safriz beautifully pointed out... Our weakness is our rulers and the corrupt useless system that we are running in our land...


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## LeGenD

safriz said:


> Exactly...agreed.
> 
> As you said in a previous post that India and china benefited from Israeli investment...ask yourself a question...can Pakistan benefit from that? Do we have the assurances and infrastructure and above all the political stability for any foreign investor?
> Remember when Nawaz sharif lured so many foreign companies to come to pakistan and invest in telecom and transport sector? The world responded..Telips came,Hyundai came,Daewoo came..Then cam eBenazir and just because Nawazsharif had started the projects ..she blocked everything and all the foreign investors lost to much money.
> I still remember over a thousand Yellow cabs parked at a Mauripur yard on Hawksbay road...I used to see them parked until all of them rusted,rotted and rendered useless due to Sun and Maritime salty climate of that place...
> 
> India and china not only benefited from Israeli investment..they benefited from investors all over the world..because they had the infrastructure and the political stability and assurance we don't have..
> Claiming that India and China developed only because Israel invested or because they had Diplomatic ties with Israel is wrong.
> 
> Call as many foreign investors as you want,but with such a track record of the country they wont come.
> 
> Israel should be the last place in the world we should look for any investment,as it will eventually destabilize and already unstable country.


I agree with your assessment. In case of Israel, resistance is also psychological in nature (from our side) and not just political instability and shortsighted foreign policy.

I never said that India and China *only* benefited from good relations with Israel. They progressed through other means as well. 

Point is that India and China learned from their past mistakes and brought positive reforms within them. And now you can see their progress.

Why can't Pakistan do the same?

Here is a brief snapshot of Indo-Israeli relationship:

*Indo-Israeli relations & its effects on Pak*

Sadly, we have not yet learned any lessons from our mistakes.


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## Safriz

LeGenD said:


> I agree with your assessment. In case of Israel, resistance is also psychological in nature (*from our side*) and not just political instability and shortsighted foreign policy.
> 
> I never said that India and China *only* benefited from good relations with Israel. They progressed through other means as well.
> 
> Point is that India and China learned from their past mistakes and brought positive reforms within them. And now you can see their progress.
> 
> Why can't Pakistan do the same?
> 
> Here is a brief snapshot of Indo-Israeli relationship:
> 
> *Indo-Israeli relations & its effects on Pak*
> 
> Sadly, we have not yet learned any lessons from our mistakes.



Well no..its the same from their side...Their Politicians will never fully accept Pakistan as a friend...Do you know that Israel is a hodgepodge of all sort of ethnicity and they got greater ethnic divisions than many countries in the world..Have you not read news reports of Caucasian Immigrants from Russia and ex USSR beating up Dark skinned Jewish Immigrants from Africa?
External troubles are regularly used as an escape goat from their politicians to cover their failures and to stop their people from fighting amongst each other.

Imagine if Pakistan and Israel establish diplomatic ties,and Pakistanis start going to Israel..there will be much hatred and alienation from them for us...same goes for any Israelis coming to Pakistan.
Then there is a strong possibility that Pakistan will be used as a escape goat for their political and economic problems at some point..or just to divert their public anger againt each other to somewhere outside.....If you know what i mean?

Why go for such troublesome friendship whne there are troublefree alternatives available?


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## LeGenD

safriz said:


> Well no..its the same from their side...Do you know that Israel is a hodgepodge of all sort of ethnicity and they got greater ethnic divisions than many countries in the world..Have you not read news reports of Caucasian Immigrants from Russia and ex USSR beating up Dark skinned Jewish Immigrants from Africa?
> External troubles are regularly used as an escape goat from their politicians to cover their failures and to stop their people from fighting amongst each other.


This is irrelevant. Ethnic rifts are common in many nations. They are present even in China.



safriz said:


> Imagine if Pakistan and Israel establish diplomatic ties,and Pakistanis start going to Israel..there will be much hatred and alienation from them for us...same goes for any Israelis coming to Pakistan.
> Then there is a strong possibility that Pakistan will be used as a escape goat for their political and economic problems at some point..or just to divert their public anger againt each other to somewhere outside.....If you know what i mean?
> 
> Why go for such troublesome friendship whne there are troublefree alternatives available?


And your assumptions are based upon? I am right when I said that 'psychological factors' also plague us.

Look at the case of Egypt and Turkey. They are Islamic nations and they have good relations with Israel. Please wake up. At the minimum, they are peacefully co-existing with each other.

Our unstable leadership system is the main factor due to which we become scape-goat for others and are taken advantage of. When we will realize this?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum, 

Those who r advocating for relations with israel , now we have our best allies thay come and give us shabash on our back dont give the money that is needed for fighting terrorism and goto our eastern neighbor and give them wat ever they want. After the relations with israel , Barak or natanyahoo will come in islamabad and would say some nice word about us and plenty of advice on doing more and will travel to our eastern neighbor and improve their strategic ties ( just imagine if sharon was instead these two). If u ppl say that we can benefit from this relation then why we could not benefit from our relation with u.s and got 50&#37; of wat our neighbor is getting?. Now if we talk about patriotism , Till now we have 10 masters who we lick their hands and u r asking me to add one more MASTER?. U ppl call for indepence of decision making , self respect but acting against it if u wanna make relations make it with cuba (if we dont have diplomatic relation )they sent hundered doctors during earthquakes or some other countries. Try to choose not corrupt politician and do good governance we r country of 170 million no one can ignore us if we respect ourself and not by selling ourselves cheap.

TARIQ


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## LeGenD

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> assalam alaikum,
> 
> Those who r advocating for relations with israel , now we have our best allies thay come and give us shabash on our back dont give the money that is needed for fighting terrorism and goto our eastern neighbor and give them wat ever they want. After the relations with israel , Barak or natanyahoo will come in islamabad and would say some nice word about us and plenty of advice on doing more and will travel to our eastern neighbor and improve their strategic ties ( just imagine if sharon was instead these two). If u ppl say that we can benefit from this relation then why we could not benefit from our relation with u.s and got 50&#37; of wat our neighbor is getting?. Now if we talk about patriotism , Till now we have 10 masters who we lick their hands and u r asking me to add one more MASTER?. U ppl call for indepence of decision making , self respect but acting against it if u wanna make relations make it with cuba (if we dont have diplomatic relation )they sent hundered doctors during earthquakes or some other countries. Try to choose not corrupt politician and do good governance we r country of 170 million no one can ignore us if we respect ourself and not by selling ourselves cheap.
> 
> TARIQ


Sir, if you care to check history of India, you will get all the answers.

India tried to keep its foreign policy as independent as possible. And as a result, it has got lot of allies.

India recognized Israel in 1992. Do you know this? 

Indians thought ahead of us. We are victims of our "extremist mentality."

Ever thought about _Israeli factor_ when talking about our relationship with USA? Here is a hint for you: *powerful Jewish Lobby in US*

Since, we don't recognize existence of Israel; the jewish lobby in US does not have any soft corner for us.

Also, _beggers_ are not respected in this world. Begging is forbidden even in Islam. Think about this.

We need to determine that where we went wrong instead of putting all the blame on others.

And who is stopping us from creating diplomatic ties with Cuba or other nations that we don't have any issues with? I am in support of developing good relationship with as many nations as possible.

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## muse

I do wish those who are opposed to diplomatic relations between Pakistan and Israel would offer us arguments that do not rely on bigoted propositions which they justify with equally offensive suggestions that these are "religious".

Just give us some clearly thought out arguments why such a position (diplomatic relations between Pakistan and Israel) are or will be harmful to Pakistan

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## Safriz

LeGenD said:


> This is *irrelevant*. Ethnic rifts are common in many nations. They are present even in China.
> 
> 
> And your assumptions are based upon? I am right when I said that 'psychological factors' also plague us.
> 
> Look at the case of Egypt and Turkey. They are Islamic nations and they have good relations with Israel. Please wake up. At the minimum, they are peacefully co-existing with each other.
> 
> Our unstable leadership system is the main factor due to which we become scape-goat for others and are taken advantage of. When we will realize this?



How is it irrelevant to explain the basis of their political unrest? and the reason why they wont be able to unanimously accept us as friends ...is irrelevant?


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## Kambojaric

muse said:


> I do wish those who are opposed to diplomatic relations between Pakistan and Israel would offer us arguments that do not rely on bigoted propositions which they justify with equally offensive suggestions that these are "religious".
> 
> Just give us some clearly thought out arguments why such a position (diplomatic relations between Pakistan and Israel) are or will be harmful to Pakistan



Well one argument would be a general sense of solidarity with Palestinians as our Kashmiri brothers are suffering the same fate as the Palestinians. I agree with the view Abu Zolfikar had, that once a Palestinian state is established we should initiate diplomatic relationships with Israel.


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## blain2

There is no harm when parties to the conflict in the Middle East have diplomatic relations with them. Yet the issue is that when Pakistan, as a matter of courtesy, asks Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians about establishing ties then we get a less than encouraging response.

Having ties is not a problem. Its silly to not talk in this world where geographical barriers are coming down every day. All the Arab countries have ties with India with whom we have a bit of an issue wrt Kashmir however Pakistan has never stopped these countries from maintaining relations with India. If anything their ties with India have helped the situation by bringing more pragmatism and understanding of the conflict for these countries. Pakistan's case would be no different. We may be able to help broker something that the two camps (Israelis and Arabs) have not been able to do so amongst themselves with the US prodding.

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## sameer-abc

Bamxa said:


> Well one argument would be a general sense of solidarity with Palestinians as our Kashmiri brothers are suffering the same fate as the Palestinians. I agree with the view Abu Zolfikar had, that once a Palestinian state is established we should initiate diplomatic relationships with Israel.




So are our brothers in Uighirs (China), why not side with them?

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## Vajra_Yuddh

sameer-abc said:


> So are our brothers in Uighirs (China), why not side with them?


Not possible; they are foreign agents attempting to sabotage great China's rise. China is always right.


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## Safriz

^^^^^^ TROLL ATTACK


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## Kambojaric

sameer-abc said:


> So are our brothers in Uighirs (China), why not side with them?



Wont bother replying to you, have had this discussion several times before to no result, your obviously one of the ever increasing indian troll army invading this forum. Enjoy the thanks you will get from your fellow trollers. Good day


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## Safriz

This happens to be the 1000th comment on the subject..most probably everything relevant to the topic has been said already.Unknowingly we might be participating in a circular argument by posting any further in this thread.


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## muse

> Yet the issue is that when Pakistan, as a matter of courtesy, asks Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians about establishing ties then we get a less than encouraging response




Pakistanis are supposed to decide Pakistani policy - after all which Egyptian or Jordanian asked Pakistan, as a matter of courtesy or not, what Pakistan and Pakistanis thought of them establishing diplomatic relations with Israel?? Or Russia or India or China?

Why does Pakistan have to give non-Pakistanis, any kind of say in the affairs of Pakistan? We gave Saudis a say in the affairs of Pakistan and see where that got us, terror central.



> one argument would be a general sense of solidarity with Palestinians as our Kashmiri brothers are suffering the same fate as the Palestinians



But we not only talk to the Indian, we implore the Indian to talk with us in every international forum - should we stop talking to India in solidarity with the captives of kashmir??

Friends, please craft meaningful and unassailable arguments for your positions - these were neither meaningful (in the sense that they are illogical, they defeat the very purpose they are supposedly designed to further) and are easily defeated.

Now, it could be that since the opposition can craft neither meaningful nor unassailable arguments and can only offer delaying tactics, (once the Palestinian state is done , once every instance of discrimination has stopped, once hell freezes over, etc..) might mean that such arguments cannot be craft because the position is just plain not defensible?


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## Kambojaric

muse said:


> *But we not only talk to the Indian, we implore the Indian to talk with us in every international forum - should we stop talking to India in solidarity with the captives of kashmir??*
> 
> Friends, please craft meaningful and unassailable arguments for your positions - these were neither meaningful (in the sense that they are illogical, they defeat the very purpose they are supposedly designed to further) and are easily defeated.
> 
> Now, it could be that since the opposition can craft neither meaningful nor unassailable arguments and can only offer delaying tactics, (once the Palestinian state is done , once every instance of discrimination has stopped, once hell freezes over, etc..) might mean that such arguments cannot be craft because the position is just plain not defensible?



Has this talking with India brought out anything productive? Their stand is firm which goes right against our stand. What is there to talk about then? Situtation in Kashmir hasnt changed abit despite all the attempts of talking.

How is not initiating a relationship with Israel as long as a Palestinian state is created illogical? What has Egypt or Jordan gained by accepting Israel? They suffer the same problems that any developing country is suffering e.g. corruption. These muslim countries arent really viewed any differently than other muslim countries who have not accepted Israel. The only exception is Turkey but they have come so far because of their own will, power and belief in their ideology.


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## muse

> How is not initiating a relationship with Israel as long as a Palestinian state is created illogical? What has Egypt or Jordan gained by accepting Israel?



Surely that is for the Egyptian and Jordanian people to answer, but one obvious answer is that there's been no war between these countries since they have diplomatic relations -- See, not having diplomatic relations is a reflection of an abnormal state of affairs, not the other way around.



> Has this talking with India brought out anything productive? Their stand is firm which goes right against our stand. What is there to talk about then? Situtation in Kashmir hasnt changed abit despite all the attempts of talking.



Yet it hold the potential to bring about a general peace - can you think of any other way short of genocide??


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

LeGenD said:


> Sir, if you care to check history of India, you will get all the answers.
> 
> India tried to keep its foreign policy as independent as possible. And as a result, it has got lot of allies.
> 
> India recognized Israel in 1992. Do you know this?
> 
> Indians thought ahead of us. We are victims of our "extremist mentality."
> 
> Ever thought about _Israeli factor_ when talking about our relationship with USA? Here is a hint for you: *powerful Jewish Lobby in US*
> 
> Since, we don't recognize existence of Israel; the jewish lobby in US does not have any soft corner for us.
> 
> Also, _beggers_ are not respected in this world. Begging is forbidden even in Islam. Think about this.
> 
> We need to determine that where we went wrong instead of putting all the blame on others.
> 
> And who is stopping us from creating diplomatic ties with Cuba or other nations that we don't have any issues with? I am in support of developing good relationship with as many nations as possible.



assalam alaikum, 

Brother 1st dont call me sir ( my request ) i am here to learn and chip in if i have something to say and we can be right some times or wrong.

When did i say we dont need independent decision making ( as a matter of fact i strongly advocate 4 that and want our nation to stop licking the hand of their masters who ever they r ).

i was quarter of century ago for my undergrade studies in the states. During my univercity time watchin political programs was like a routine and traveling on my car from north to south ( new york to miami ) if i didnot have any matches for the sport that i played.
So i heard on tv about the jewish lobby and saw on ground their actual power and how the big is u.s might. wat i meant is i m not living in a cave. But the problem is when musharraf agreed to help the u.s he promised the nation or told us he did this to save our kashmir policy and atomic program. atomic program we everyday getting complaints about it and kashmir policy is lost.

About begging brother we have great land talented ppl just stop choosing the corrupt persons. Who is stopping u from good governance? fighting the corruption?. If we show some independence we will get the respect by our means. U want the jewish lobby to give u clean slate, and when they want they will make it dirty it means u will be always blackmailed.

By the way i m kind of person who blames himself if something go wrong so i m not blaming anyother country for our failures. If is our failures and we need to deal with them with our means and by ourself to become independent. 

nice to hear from u.

ALLAH HUM SUB KA BHALA KARAIN AAMEEEN

TARIQ


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum,

Egypt and Jordan have borders with israel so if they make peace to stop war it is ok with us but i would argue the same we dont have any borders with israel wat is need to hurry. we can live millions of years without going to war with each other.

TARIQ


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## muse

> Egypt and Jordan have borders with israel so if they make peace to stop war it is ok with us but i would argue the same we dont have any borders with israel wat is need to hurry



And Egypt and Jordan are also Arabs, and since we are not arabs we should not have relations with anybody?

Enslave the mind and body will follow 




> wat is need to hurry



What is the reason to delay? We have already shown the idea that we must wait till there is a Palestinian state to be hollow, after all, why not wait till hell freezes over?

All we have asked for was one, just one real, one logical argument as to why Pakistan must not have diplomatic relations with Israel?

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum 

mentioning of borders was in response to the fact that they have wars with each other IN UR POST. 

TARIQ


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## Kambojaric

"Surely that is for the Egyptian and Jordanian people to answer, but one obvious answer is that there's been no war between these countries since they have diplomatic relations -- See, not having diplomatic relations is a reflection of an abnormal state of affairs, not the other way around."

True, there's been no war but once Egypt used to be the centre of power in the Arab world. Arab states used to look up to Nasser for guidance. All that is gone now so by accepting Israel they have in essence accepted defeat. If we were to revoke our stance on Kashmir today it would ultimately be seen as an acceptance of defeat by our people.

What we are getting to eventually is that what does a conflict so far away have anything to do with us. After that it is entirely upto the individual. Remember Pakistan was created on the name of Islam. I am no mullah or anything, dont get me wrong but we are only the 2nd state in Islams history to have been created on its name and with that i believe comes certain responsibilities. Yes we wont be able to make any meaningful difference in that conflict but we can atleast maintain our position that the people of Palestine who have been subject to crusades and imperialism deserve our empathy. As said it is entirely upto the indivudual. You probably disagree with me, have no problem with that but i think it is wrong to degrade the genuine feeling of empathy with the Palestinian people that exists amongst Pakistanis and throughout the muslim world in general.


Yet it hold the potential to bring about a general peace - can you think of any other way short of genocide??

Well in that sense anything has the potential to happen, even a Palestinian state has to potential to come into existence. However what are the chances of Pak-Indo talks actually getting anywhere? As said our stances are totally opposite to each other. It would be political suicide if any government actually concedes parts or the whole of Kashmir to the other. That government can forget to be elected again. In short unfortunately it may sound harsh but only might can bring about a change. Either that or you maintain the status quo.


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## LeGenD

safriz said:


> How is it irrelevant to explain the basis of their political unrest? and the reason why they wont be able to unanimously accept us as friends ...is irrelevant?


Do you think that Israel does not have a proper foreign policy to manage its external affairs?

Point is that we do not want to give Israel a chance.

Have a look at the case of Indo-Israeli relations: 

India is sympathetic towards palestinian cause and also condemned Israeli action against Lebanon. And yet both of these countries have a positive relationship and they are helping each other in various sectors.

Is Israel hesitant to respond to diplomatic overtures from us?

Here is the answer. In short, it is not.

Do we pay attention to Israeli views regarding us?



> At the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the tone is understated. "We have no diplomatic or border problems with Pakistan," the ministry's deputy director-general Zvi Gabay said. "We have no reason for any hostility. We would be happy to have relations with Pakistan."


Source: Asia Times - Israel cautious over Pakistan's overtures

In short, we do not pay attention to Israeli views.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

The problem is simple Legend... Its called ideology...

Islam is opposed to Zionism... and it is also opposed to someone kicking you out of your home and calling it their own... and then start some useless negotiation to give you back the bathroom...

Have you not read in the Quran...

Translation of the Meaning...

Drive them out of the places where they drove you out from... for persecution is worse than slaughter!!!!


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## muse

Islam-ism is opposed to Zion-ism - lets get this straight and keep it that way -- If you do not have any argument except to use religion as a political tool - please refrain from offering bigotry disguised as a argument for reasonable persons to consider.

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## A1Kaid

Someone made a really good point. Why is Pakistan worried about upsetting the no-good Arab states by establishing ties with Israel when the same Arab states have ties with Pakistan's enemy India. Some Arab states like Egypt and Jordan already have ties with Israel. It doesn't seem to bother the Arab's when they establish ties with India, if Pakistan would be irritated by that.


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## A1Kaid

Besides establishing ties with Israel doesn't necessarily mean you espouse all Israeli policies. It can be a helpful step forward in resolving outstanding issues.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

muse said:


> Islam-ism is opposed to Zion-ism - lets get this straight and keep it that way -- If you do not have any argument except to use religion as a political tool - please refrain from offering bigotry disguised as a argument for reasonable persons to consider.



God is great... I quote you Quran and you start going on a rant...

If the word of God does not matter to you, I have nothing else to say...

I have however posed a challenge to those of you here who think Pakistan should recognize Israel... Be my guest... put some action where your mouth is... See how far you go 

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------

What the Israelis wont give in return for getting recognition from Pakistan... lol


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## bunnyr

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> God is great... I quote you Quran and you start going on a rant...
> 
> If the word of God does not matter to you, I have nothing else to say...
> 
> I have however posed a challenge to those of you here who think Pakistan should recognize Israel... Be my guest... put some action where your mouth is... See how far you go
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------
> 
> What the Israelis wont give in return for getting recognition from Pakistan... lol



Do you recognize India then.


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## jatayu

bunnyr said:


> Do you recognize India then.



Answer will be no. their should not be india israel or any non islamic country in the world particularly secular countries


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## muse

> I quote you Quran and you start going on a rant...



You quote Quran without context, take versus out of their context for your hate filled political purpose and malign Islam, Quran and Muslims, shame on you and all like you and those who allow you to do this.


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## silent hawk

muse said:


> You quote Quran without context, take versus out of their context for your hate filled political purpose and malign Islam, Quran and Muslims, shame on you and all like you and those who allow you to do this.



In this confused era who has the authority to say with conviction as to what is the true context of the versus of the Quran and to decide about what is right and wrong in this regard.

One option has been to keep discussions secular.

*Islam and Jewism on the other hand are probably the only two widely existing religions that give allowance to kill other human beings in certain conditions.*

Hence this thread has not been secular and it is likely that it will not remain secular.

*To snub people for openly expressing thier religious views especially in this thread, in my opinion is not called for*


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## Safriz

silent hawk said:


> In this confused era who has the authority to say with conviction as to what is the true context of the versus of the Quran and to decide about what is right and wrong in this regard.
> 
> One option has been to keep discussions secular.
> 
> *Islam and Jewism on the other hand are probably the only two widely existing religions that give allowance to kill other human beings in certain conditions.*
> 
> Hence this thread has not been secular and it is likely that it will not remain secular.
> 
> *To snub people for openly expressing thier religious views especially in this thread, in my opinion is not called for*



If you are confused..It doesn't mean everybody else is the same...Try to speak for yourself.

You or anybody else should not try forcing people who want to take religion seriously for not talking about it..

In any discussion references from any context should not be banned, altogether as long as its well placed,followed by a good explanation.

Deal with it,that the main differences between Israel and Pakistan are Ideological,and they emanate from religious roots...
While we may be able to leave religion behind and shake hands with them...There is no guarantee that they will do the same....

Historically speaking..Salahuddin Ayyubi did something like that..He shook hands with with Israelis,and made piece..But then it was Salahuddin Ayyubi...Will somebody as lame as Asif Ali Zardari be able to do the same,and still protect our benifits? I am highly doubtful.


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## silent hawk

safriz said:


> If *you are confused*..It doesn't mean everybody else is the same...Try to speak for yourself.
> 
> You or anybody else should not try forcing people who want to take religion seriously for not talking about it..
> 
> In any discussion references from any context should not be banned, altogether as long as its well placed,followed by a good explanation.
> 
> Deal with it,that the main differences between Israel and Pakistan are Ideological,and they emanate from religious roots...
> While we may be able to leave religion behind and shake hands with them...There is no guarantee that they will do the same....
> 
> Historically speaking..Salahuddin Ayyubi did something like that..He shook hands with with Israelis,and made piece..But then it was Salahuddin Ayyubi...Will somebody as lame as Asif Ali Zardari be able to do the same,and still protect our benifits? *I am highly doubtful*.




I am confused and you are highly doubtful, does that not put us in the same boat brother?


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## silent hawk

silent hawk said:


> In this confused era who has the authority to say with conviction as to what is the true context of the versus of the Quran and to decide about what is right and wrong in this regard.
> 
> One option has been to keep discussions secular.
> 
> *Islam and Jewism on the other hand are probably the only two widely existing religions that give allowance to kill other human beings in certain conditions.*
> 
> Hence this thread has not been secular and it is likely that it will not remain secular.
> 
> *To snub people for openly expressing thier religious views especially in this thread, in my opinion is not called for*



My point simply is that in this thread people should not be snubbed for expressing their religious views.


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## Safriz

silent hawk said:


> I am confused and you are highly doubtful, does that not put us in the same boat brother?



I dont do circular arguments..Come up with a more detailed comment and i might reply...otherwise suit yourself.


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## Rumporum

A1Kaid said:


> Besides establishing ties with Israel doesn't necessarily mean you espouse all Israeli policies. It can be a helpful step forward in resolving outstanding issues.



And what are the outstanding issues could you enlighten?

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## silent hawk

Rumporum said:


> And what are the outstanding issues could you enlighten?



One outstanding issue is the Armageddon the great battle to be between good and evil. Maybe we should handle that first?

According to Dr. Israr a renowned Muslim scholar, the Zionists would like an early start to Armageddon. Is this true?


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## A1Kaid

Rumporum said:


> And what are the outstanding issues could you enlighten?





To be fair, one issue is settlement expansion and building into West Bank.


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## Rumporum

A1Kaid said:


> To be fair, one issue is settlement expansion and building into West Bank.



How is Pakistan connected to the settlement expansion and building in the West Bank????'

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## Rumporum

silent hawk said:


> One outstanding issue is the Armageddon the great battle to be between good and evil. Maybe we should handle that first?
> 
> According to Dr. Israr a renowned Muslim scholar, the Zionists would like an early start to Armageddon. Is this true?



Well as far as I know the Zionists have no intention of starting an Armageddon.


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## niaz

I have no problem in admitting that Pakistan and Israel have no bilateral issues. In fact both the countries are the only ones ever created on the basis of religion.

Personally, having lived abroad for the most of the last 40 years and interacted with many Jews and their families; I don&#8217;t see any real impediment to Pakistan establishing diplomatic relations with Israel. When we have full diplomatic relations with India; a country that has split Pakistan in two and has occupied Kashmir by force since 1948; why not recognize Israel? Especially when Turkey, Egypt and Jordan have already done so.

However, majority of Pakistanis rightly or wrongly consider Pakistan a &#8220;Fortress of Islam&#8221; and support the Palestinian cause wholeheartedly. Thus until Palestine state is completely free and officially recognizes Israel, it would be a political suicide for any leader who attempts to do so.


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## Rumporum

niaz said:


> I have no problem in admitting that Pakistan and Israel have no bilateral issues. In fact both the countries are the only ones ever created on the basis of religion.
> 
> Personally, having lived abroad for the most of the last 40 years and interacted with many Jews and their families; I don&#8217;t see any real impediment to Pakistan establishing diplomatic relations with Israel. When we have full diplomatic relations with India; a country that has split Pakistan in two and has occupied Kashmir by force since 1948; why not recognize Israel? Especially when Turkey, Egypt and Jordan have already done so.
> 
> However, majority of Pakistanis rightly or wrongly consider Pakistan a &#8220;Fortress of Islam&#8221; and support the Palestinian cause wholeheartedly. Thus until Palestine state is completely free and officially recognizes Israel, it would be a political suicide for any leader who attempts to do so.




Well to be honest I have interacted with quite few people from Pakistan and they were ok I get and got along very well with them people. 

Given the radicalised society in Pakistan and as you mention "Fortress of Islam etc.." thoughts there is no chance that there ever will be an bilateral relations or even trade relations. Honestly there is absolutely no benefit for either side to establish one.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

niaz said:


> I have no problem in admitting that Pakistan and Israel have no bilateral issues. In fact both the countries are the only ones ever created on the basis of religion.
> 
> Personally, having lived abroad for the most of the last 40 years and interacted with many Jews and their families; I dont see any real impediment to Pakistan establishing diplomatic relations with Israel. When we have full diplomatic relations with India; a country that has split Pakistan in two and has occupied Kashmir by force since 1948; why not recognize Israel? Especially when Turkey, Egypt and Jordan have already done so.
> 
> However, majority of Pakistanis rightly or wrongly consider Pakistan a Fortress of Islam and support the Palestinian cause wholeheartedly. Thus until Palestine state is completely free and officially recognizes Israel, it would be a political suicide for any leader who attempts to do so.



I have also interacted with many Jews and they are viciously anti Muslim my friend... what are you on about?

Even if Palestine recognized Israel there is no way on earth that Pakistan will recognize Israel... Palestine my dear already recognizes Israel on many levels... they negotiate with them and do all sorts of trade with them... There is a greater reason for us not to recognize Israel rather than just Palestine... India has always existed and was not formed by stealing land from any community... this is why India has all the right to exist and shall exist (and in the future a land of great abundance, happiness and wealth compared to the poverty and misery its population lives under today inshaAllah)... as for Israel... European Jews stole that land from Muslims... We dont recognize theft as a legitimate means of ownership sir...

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum,

Those ppl who alsways tell us Egypt, Jordan and turky have established relations with israel this relationship is between the Government level ( Egypt and Jordan). We meet many ppl of those countries they dont accept the relationship with israel and we all know how much these countries express their ppl's will. 

TARIQ

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## niaz

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I have also interacted with many Jews and they are viciously anti Muslim my friend... what are you on about?
> 
> Even if Palestine recognized Israel there is no way on earth that Pakistan will recognize Israel... Palestine my dear already recognizes Israel on many levels... they negotiate with them and do all sorts of trade with them... There is a greater reason for us not to recognize Israel rather than just Palestine... India has always existed and was not formed by stealing land from any community... this is why India has all the right to exist and shall exist (and in the future a land of great abundance, happiness and wealth compared to the poverty and misery its population lives under today inshaAllah)... as for Israel... European Jews stole that land from Muslims... We dont recognize theft as a legitimate means of ownership sir...





Honorable Sir,

Obviously you and I move in different circles. I have my home in the UK and am a liberal whereas despite the fact that you live in the UK and enjoy the freedom and social security UK provides, appear to be partial towards extremists. However you have every right to your view point, I have no quarrel with that just that you won&#8217;t enjoy the same freedom in Taliban type state that you would like to impose on Pakistan.

As a student, one of my best friends was a Hungarian Jew. The person who hired me first in Esso (now Exxon) was an American Jew and my solicitor who did conveyance for my House purchase is also a Jew. My next door neighbor in New York, when I was working there in 1970, was also a Jew.

Never once did I find any hostility towards me because I was a Muslim. No doubt there are bigoted Jews as well, I would even venture to say that most Zionists are anti Muslim but all Jews are not Zionists just as all Muslims are not Taliban.

I have read one post where it is said that many Egyptians are against Israel. Correct, but many Egyptians are also for Israel and I personally know quite a few. 

Until Anwar Sadaat signed peace agreement of Camp David in 1978; Egypt was spending major part of her income on Defense and was dependent upon Russian aid; not much different from Pakistan of today where without IMF hand out we can't survive. Peace with Israel changed all that. 

Egypt got back all the land she had lost in 1967 adventure by Nasser. Suez Canal reopened and again became a great source of revenue. After a couple of years of ostracism, Egpyt was accepted back into the Arab fold and end of war with Israel also brought in huge increase in tourism.

Anwar Sadaat had the vision and the courage to do what was in the best interest of Egpyt for which Egypt is reaping rewards until today. It is a pity that your friends the Ikhwan killed him. Suppose you think that it was a noble act? The Jewish bigot who killed Yitzak Rabin for signing Norwegian accord with PLO is also considered a hero by the Likud bigots.

As a Pakistani, I try to see what is in the best interests of Pakistan. Recognizing Israel would bring no immediate benefit to Pakistan and I am not suggesting that Pakistan should open her doors to Israel tomorrow or next year. I am also a strong supporter of Palestinian cause and would wait until a free Palestinian state is formed. However, as a peace loving nation, eventually Pakistan should have relations with all of the nations of the world including Israel.

There is no dearth of bigots in the world, whether Muslim Jew, Christian, Hindu or Sikh. I am proud of the fact that I am not one them.

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## muse

It should now be clear to those who may have been on the side lines on the issue of diplomatic relations between Israel and Pakistan, that those who oppose this, offer no reasonable, logical argument to support their position - but perhaps this is because their position is not based on reasonable or logical arguments.

Bigotry disguised as a "religious" proposition seems founded upon the misuse of Quranic verses, that is to say by quoting them out of their context, to support a political position - seems to me designed to defame Islam and Muslims as bigotry and bigots.

We all, many thinking Israelis included, find the policies of the Israeli state, unsupportable, but we think the same about polices of the Indian state in Kashmir, and we maintain diplomatic relations with India to be able to advise, influence, pressure and partner with them in a better future - so why make a exception for the Israel? If we hope to help Palestinians and Israelis and ourselves, we must first have diplomatic relations so that we can at least talk and be heard, have a voice in each others deliberations. Is this not so?


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## r4rehan

why we need recognize them ?? we don't wana do that ,,, this is the a opinion of majority of Pakistan's ppl i don't know abt ur but with the ppl i meet they always hate them coz we are religious then any one think and ppl of pakistan thinks that its not a political issue it's a religion's issue for them 

n i m also hate u isreal  
n i know we cant remove u frm there coz it will be done by Jesus (Peace be upon him) till then we'll resistance  sorry my Jewish frnd ...

ALLAH made us like it 

just wait 4 ur masiha for us he will be a Anti-christ 

we are waiting for true masiha {Jesus (P.B.O.H) }

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## muse

> the ppl i meet they always hate them coz we are religious



Interesting how "Hate" and "religious" seem to go together for you and the "people" you meet - anyway, Takfiri hate Muslims, doesn't mean takfiri are right. Perhaps we should think about the kind of values we associate with the "religious" - but of course it's a free world, hate any one you care to.


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## Coltsfan

Rumporum said:


> How is Pakistan connected to the settlement expansion and building in the West Bank????'



Pakistan is champion of Islam's cause all over the world.

It has a constitutional duty to try and meddle everywhere muslims are part of a dispute for example Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan etc.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

niaz said:


> Honorable Sir,
> 
> Obviously you and I move in different circles. I have my home in the UK and am a liberal whereas despite the fact that you live in the UK and enjoy the freedom and social security UK provides, appear to be partial towards extremists. However you have every right to your view point, I have no quarrel with that just that you wont enjoy the same freedom in Taliban type state that you would like to impose on Pakistan.
> 
> As a student, one of my best friends was a Hungarian Jew. The person who hired me first in Esso (now Exxon) was an American Jew and my solicitor who did conveyance for my House purchase is also a Jew. My next door neighbor in New York, when I was working there in 1970, was also a Jew.
> 
> Never once did I find any hostility towards me because I was a Muslim. No doubt there are bigoted Jews as well, I would even venture to say that most Zionists are anti Muslim but all Jews are not Zionists just as all Muslims are not Taliban.
> 
> I have read one post where it is said that many Egyptians are against Israel. Correct, but many Egyptians are also for Israel and I personally know quite a few.
> 
> Until Anwar Sadaat signed peace agreement of Camp David in 1978; Egypt was spending major part of her income on Defense and was dependent upon Russian aid; not much different from Pakistan of today where without IMF hand out we can't survive. Peace with Israel changed all that.
> 
> Egypt got back all the land she had lost in 1967 adventure by Nasser. Suez Canal reopened and again became a great source of revenue. After a couple of years of ostracism, Egpyt was accepted back into the Arab fold and end of war with Israel also brought in huge increase in tourism.
> 
> Anwar Sadaat had the vision and the courage to do what was in the best interest of Egpyt for which Egypt is reaping rewards until today. It is a pity that your friends the Ikhwan killed him. Suppose you think that it was a noble act? The Jewish bigot who killed Yitzak Rabin for signing Norwegian accord with PLO is also considered a hero by the Likud bigots.
> 
> As a Pakistani, I try to see what is in the best interests of Pakistan. Recognizing Israel would bring no immediate benefit to Pakistan and I am not suggesting that Pakistan should open her doors to Israel tomorrow or next year. I am also a strong supporter of Palestinian cause and would wait until a free Palestinian state is formed. However, as a peace loving nation, eventually Pakistan should have relations with all of the nations of the world including Israel.
> 
> *There is no dearth of bigots in the world, whether Muslim Jew, Christian, Hindu or Sikh. I am proud of the fact that I am not one them*.



With all due respect to you sir... It is enough for a person to be a bigot when he starts labeling others partial to extremists on a mere differing viewpoint.

It is interesting however why you even consider Pakistan to recognize Israel... Some jews gave you a job... 

You would be singing an entirely different tune if some gangsters came along and threw you out of your house and occupied it calling it their own home Mr Niaz!!!


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

muse said:


> It should now be clear to those who may have been on the side lines on the issue of diplomatic relations between Israel and Pakistan, that those who oppose this, offer no reasonable, logical argument to support their position - but perhaps this is because their position is not based on reasonable or logical arguments.
> 
> Bigotry disguised as a "religious" proposition seems founded upon the misuse of Quranic verses, that is to say by quoting them out of their context, to support a political position - seems to me designed to defame Islam and Muslims as bigotry and bigots.
> 
> We all, many thinking Israelis included, find the policies of the Israeli state, unsupportable, but we think the same about polices of the Indian state in Kashmir, and we maintain diplomatic relations with India to be able to advise, influence, pressure and partner with them in a better future - so why make a exception for the Israel? If we hope to help Palestinians and Israelis and ourselves, we must first have diplomatic relations so that we can at least talk and be heard, have a voice in each others deliberations. Is this not so?



Misuse of Quranic verses... lol

What are you... some sort of Alim e Deen now? Pray enlighten us about the "context" if you think you know better than those who do not support bending over the Zionist regime in occupied Palestine...

Actually you know what... Save it... I should nt be wasting my energy with someone who starts calling others bigots at the drop of the hat...

Salama


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## r4rehan

muse said:


> Interesting how "Hate" and "religious" seem to go together for you and the "people" you meet - anyway, Takfiri hate Muslims, doesn't mean takfiri are right. Perhaps we should think about the kind of values we associate with the "religious" - but of course it's a free world, hate any one you care to.



so u have to ask with the ppl you meet what their opinion abt isreal and r u going to recognize ISRAEL ?? wht the benefit in that ??? 

Pakistan 1st P.M deny to recognize ISRAEL so do i

and 

i always hate them  yeh meri ZID hai  as a True Muslim and Pakistani

coz they Zionist are killing my people, my brothers, my sisters, my children they bond my 3rd largest MASJID 

we'll never allow to demolish my MASJID 

r u getting me Zionistssssssssss
i m a Common man of Pakistani Muslim we are ready to give our blood for them for my MASJID ,,,, is'nt u ???? 



<(_|_)| AKBAR


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## 500

Coltsfan said:


> Pakistan is champion of Islam's cause all over the world.
> 
> It has a constitutional duty to try and meddle everywhere muslims are part of a dispute for example Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan etc.


Why Pakistan did not cut diplomatic relationships with Russia, when it was leveling Chechnya then?


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## Coltsfan

500 said:


> Why Pakistan did not cut diplomatic relationships with Russia, when it was leveling Chechnya then?



Cos chechens are not Arab people, speaking arabic language and imbibing arabic culture.


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## TaimiKhan

Coltsfan said:


> Pakistan is champion of Islam's cause all over the world.
> 
> It has a constitutional duty to try and meddle everywhere muslims are part of a dispute for example Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan etc.



Can you plzzzz give us the constitutional reference which says Pakistan has to meddle in the affairs of others, especially when it comes to Islam. 

Becoz if you couldn't, you are history, as we don't need sarcastic people like you. 

So waiting for your proof or pack your bags.

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## Coltsfan

TaimiKhan said:


> Can you plzzzz give us the constitutional reference which says Pakistan has to meddle in the affairs of others, especially when it comes to Islam.
> 
> Becoz if you couldn't, you are history, as we don't need sarcastic people like you.
> 
> So waiting for your proof or pack your bags.



Pack my bags please


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## CardSharp

Coltsfan said:


> Pack my bags please



Ask and you shall receive

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## Rumporum

Coltsfan said:


> Cos chechens are not Arab people, speaking arabic language and imbibing arabic culture.



Huh? but Pakistanis are not Arabs nor Arabic speaking either.

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## Awesome

Rumporum said:


> How is Pakistan connected to the settlement expansion and building in the West Bank????'





Coltsfan said:


> Pakistan is champion of Islam's cause all over the world.
> 
> It has a constitutional duty to try and meddle everywhere muslims are part of a dispute for example Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Afghanistan etc.



Obviously what you're saying is not true in actuality and its probably more to do with the Indian flag you're sporting there.

To be fair to Pakistan, we have on occasion tried to be friendly with Israel but the Israeli press was filled with venom against Pakistan. There are religious concerns and political alignments, but if Israel and Pakistan were not antagonistic at least it would fare off better in our religious and political disagreements as well.

Everything is inter-connected with the other.

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## muse

> i always hate them yeh meri ZID hai as a True Muslim and Pakistani



Zid tau bache kar tey hain - Aapp apne dimagh aur mantiq par tavajuh dijiyeh, aapp ke ehsasaat jazbaat ne aapp ko barbaad beyvus kar rahka hai.

Khair - think, sorry feel, any way you care to.

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## LeGenD

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> The problem is simple Legend... Its called ideology...
> 
> Islam is opposed to Zionism... and it is also opposed to someone kicking you out of your home and calling it their own... and then start some useless negotiation to give you back the bathroom...


Islam is opposed to Zionism? 

Let me clarify to you in simple terms about Zionism. It is a political movement to preserve the interests of a jewish state and people.

Islam has nothing to do with internal affairs of others unless its legitimacy is challenged or muslims are threatened. Pardon my ignornance if I am wrong here.



Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Have you not read in the Quran...
> 
> Translation of the Meaning...
> 
> Drive them out of the places where they drove you out from... for persecution is worse than slaughter!!!!


As per my limited knowledge, every Quranic verse has a purpose and some specific background to which it can be related or is related. 

Remember that Holy Quran was not revealed to our beloved Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) by Allah Almighty as a *single entity*. Holy Quran was revealed in the form of 'several components', and some components provided solutions to events that took place with passage of time in that blessed land. 

Just citing a single verse can complicate things. This is what our enemies often do. Out of context usage of versus is not advisable.

The verse you cited is 100&#37; valid in its meaning: _If muslims are being forcibly removed from their homeland, than they have legitimate right to fight back for their homeland._

If palestinians are fighting to preserve their state, then they have have a legitimate right to resist expansionist movements of their enemies within their homeland. Their cause is absolutely justified. 

However, the verse you cited does not tells anything about recognition of enemy or its state. 

In our time, world is divided in to various states. Every state has existential legitimacy and should be recognized by all other states under existing geopolitical environment.

Muslims have also split themselves from each other under the existing geopolitical environment. An Islamic super-state or empire no longer exists. 

However, all Islamic nations may carry a responsibility to help an Islamic nation that is suffering from enemy interventions. 

In our case, *we Pakistani do recognize palestinian cause*. 

However, do we have a problem with state of Israel? Israeli people are not forcing Pakistani people out of their homes.

Therefore, is it wrong for us to recognize the state of Israel? 

If main reason is palestinian cause than how about kashmir dispute? 

As per logic of your arguments, Israel and India are in the same boat and should be treated similarly. 

Get the picture?

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum,

Well as i know this is discussion forum and it is not neccessary that we all agree on one point. Why is it when we differ from each other call the other extremist or try to push him against the wall espcially i m directing my writing to the senior members of the forum?.

TARIQ


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## Awesome

muse said:


> Zid tau bache kar tey hain - Aapp apne dimagh aur mantiq par tavajuh dijiyeh, aapp ke ehsasaat jazbaat ne aapp ko barbaad beyvus kar rahka hai.
> 
> Khair - think, sorry feel, any way you care to.


Your response reminded me of this Noori song, Khalla:



> Tum Ne Apne Ehsaas Ko Maar Diya&#8230;
> Phir Tum Ne Us Ki Maiyat Ko Jala Diya&#8230;
> Ab Tum Is Ki Raakh Par Kharay Ho&#8230;
> Aur Tumhari Insaaniyat&#8230;
> Aur Tumharey Darmaiyaan&#8230;
> Ek Khalla Hai&#8230;


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## muse

I share the "sentiment" but the content of international relations is a lot more than "sentiment" - If Pakistan is to help the Palestinian and the Israeli, then Pakistan must have relations with both -- just because a job is dirty does not mean we have to abandon the job.

Today our soldiers are doing a dirty job, shall we abandon that as well? "Zid" or petulance is for children, not responsible adults.

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## KS

TaimiKhan said:


> Can you plzzzz give us the constitutional reference which says Pakistan has to meddle in the affairs of others, especially when it comes to Islam.
> 
> Becoz if you couldn't, you are history, as we don't need sarcastic people like you.
> 
> So waiting for your proof or pack your bags.



Taimi -- the word 'constitutional' was a bit over the top but isnt it true that the common Pakistani on the street is much concerned over Gujarat,Bosnia,Palestine etc etc. when in reality it doesnt affect him a bit and is clearly the internal affairs of the respective countries.

And what was the purpose behind not recognising Israel ?? Isnt it the same reason ?

(I am not mentioning Afghanistan cos It *DOES* affect you)

And as for the grouse that Pakistan treid to be friendly with Israel and its only the evil Zionists who rebuffed it --- think about the 'feats' of the PAF against IsAF and you will know the answer.You interfered in a war which was clearly not yours to fight and now put the blame on Israel.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum

To all lovers of israeli - pakistani relations, we dont mind if we have a jew neighbor and socialise with him or work with a jew, We got a problem with the state of Israel which we feel was stolen from and a decision was forced upon the palestinians. Jews have been living in the islamic world since 1400 years do dont confuse the point and dont tell us that the prophet PBUH dealt with them. He also fought them and kicked them out of madinah.

Sometimse u claims these relations will benifit the palestinians and sometimes it will soften the jew lobby against pakistan.


TARIQ


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## LeGenD

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> assalam alaikum
> 
> To all lovers of israeli - pakistani relations, we dont mind if we have a jew neighbor and socialise with him or work with a jew, We got a problem with the state of Israel which we feel was stolen from and a decision was forced upon the palestinians. Jews have been living in the islamic world since 1400 years do dont confuse the point and dont tell us that the prophet PBUH dealt with them. He also fought them and kicked them out of madinah.
> 
> Sometimse u claims these relations will benifit the palestinians and sometimes it will soften the jew lobby against pakistan.
> 
> TARIQ


Ever heard about Kingdom of Israel? More information is here.

Jews have been living in what we call palestine for many centuries. They are legitimate inhabitants of that territory.

After the World Wars, jewish survivors from various parts of the world moved in to palestine. An Israeli state was *re-born* (am I wrong?) and a war for independence was fought and won by jewish inhabitants.

However, arabs wanted revenge so another war was fought with Israel in 1967. It resulted in a major embarrassment of arabs and Israel gained new territories. Now arabs (including palestinians) want the things to revert back to pre-1967 boundaries. However, Israel does not agrees and continues to expand its boundaries.

As per the bigger picture, arabs and Israel are both at fault.

Do you diagree?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

LeGenD said:


> As per the bigger picture, arabs and Israel are both at fault.
> 
> Do you diagree?



assalam alaikum

No only the israelies r at fault.

Before the independence of pakistan, many hindus and sikhs were living out side of the subcontinent ( south africa , australia or caribean etc etc suppose ). Now if they got power and with international backing come in and claim part of jehlem lahore gujranwala, lankana saheb and throw our families from their homes. Would that be acceptable? 

TARIQ


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## Safriz

500 said:


> Why Pakistan did not cut diplomatic relationships with Russia, when it was leveling Chechnya then?



Pakistan's relation with Russia cannot be compared to Pakistan-Israel relation....Unlike Israel which a tiny puny country far far away...Russia is right next doors,and too big to be ignored by Pakistan.

For your info,in Pakistan on public level there were many protests against miss treatment of Chechnya by Russia.


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## KS

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> assalam alaikum
> 
> No only the israelies r at fault.
> 
> Before the independence of pakistan, many hindus and sikhs were living out side of the subcontinent ( south africa , australia or caribean etc etc suppose ). Now if they got power and with international backing come in and* claim part of jehlem lahore gujranwala, lankana saheb and throw our families from their homes. Would that be acceptable? *
> 
> TARIQ



If they come and beat Pakistan *comprehensively* in two or three wars like the Israelis did to the Arabs ,Yes then that will be acceptable ---- Cause Might is always Right.


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## Safriz

LeGenD said:


> Ever heard about Kingdom of Israel? More information is here.
> 
> *Jews have been living in what we call palestine for many centuries*. They are legitimate inhabitants of that territory.



If you look up your ancestry..you may find that your ancestors used to live elsewhere centuries ago...Does that mean you have the right to go and claim that country?


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## muse

> Now if they got power and with international backing come in and claim part of jehlem lahore gujranwala, lankana saheb and throw our families from their homes. Would that be acceptable?




I think your problem may be that you imagine that those who argue for the establishment of diplomatic relations somehow accept the polices of Israel in the occupied territories - that's not the case, I don't think any sane person can make that case.

After all, you do not like the US policy of drone attacks in the FATA, isn't that so? are you advocating that we withdraw diplomatic recognition from the US?? You do not support Russian policy in Chechnya, right? Are you advocating that we not have diplomatic relations with Russia? And really, you don't support our brother ally China when it acts to control insurrectionists in Zinxhiang, are you, and if not, why not, advocating ending diplomatic relations with China??

See, Tariq, we are not signaling any kind of support of Israeli policy, we are suggesting that Pakistan acknowledge reality, (Israel does exist) and Pakistan act to help both Palestinian and Israelis and that in this way allow Israel to moderate her policies by realizing that it has much to lose by following inhumane policies.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Karthic Sri said:


> If they come and beat Pakistan *comprehensively* in two or three wars like the Israelis did to the Arabs ,Yes then that will be acceptable ---- Cause Might is always Right.



Hello Karthic 

Nice to hear from u. Exactly it is the law of jungle which is imposed on the palestinians. When state of israel came to existence the palestinian land was occupied by the british along with their partners they made the resolution of israel and kicked millions of palestinians from their land. Who gave them this right? No sane person can equally blaim the paletinians and israelies 

Regards

TARIQ


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## LeGenD

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> assalam alaikum
> 
> No only the israelies r at fault.
> 
> Before the independence of pakistan, many hindus and sikhs were living out side of the subcontinent ( south africa , australia or caribean etc etc suppose ). Now if they got power and with international backing come in and claim part of jehlem lahore gujranwala, lankana saheb and throw our families from their homes. Would that be acceptable?
> 
> TARIQ


They cannot do that because these regions are not contested. World accepts these regions as part of Pakistan. However, Kashmir is a contested region by comparison.

When Israeli people won their war for independence in the holy land, arabs should have respected the newly formed jewish state. The thirst for revenge only complicated the situation. 

The scenario seems like India trying to take over Pakistan after its independence and not accepting its existence. 

Independence which is *won or earned*, should be respected.


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## LeGenD

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Hello Karthic
> 
> Nice to hear from u. Exactly it is the law of jungle which is imposed on the palestinians. When state of israel came to existence the palestinian land was occupied by the british along with their partners they made the resolution of israel and kicked millions of palestinians from their land. Who gave them this right? No sane person can equally blaim the paletinians and israelies
> 
> Regards
> 
> TARIQ


We need to be more impartial about this issue:



> The war commenced upon the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine in mid-May 1948, following a period of civil war in 1947&#8211;1948. After the Arab rejection of the 1947 UN General Assembly Resolution 181 that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state side by side, five Arab states - Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria - attacked Israel, which had declared its independence on the eve of final British withdrawal. The fighting took place mostly on the former territory of the British Mandate and for a short time also in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon.[12] The war concluded with the 1949 Armistice Agreements.


Quoted from here.

If Israeli state came in to existence with UN mandate, it should have been accepted by all other states.

Here is a more detailed account of the events:



> British, Arab, and Jewish reactions to the recommendations were not favorable. Jewish terrorism in Palestine antagonized the British, and by February 1947 Arab-Jewish communications had collapsed. Britain, anxious to rid itself of the problem, set the United Nations in motion, formally requesting on April 2, 1947, that the U.N. General Assembly set up the Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP). This committee recommended that the British mandate over Palestine be ended and that the territory be partitioned into two states. Jewish reaction was mixed -- some wanted control of all of Palestine; others realized that partition spelled hope for their dream of a homeland. The Arabs were not at all agreeable to the UNSCOP plan. In October the Arab League Council directed the governments of its member states to move troops to the Palestine border. Meanwhile, President Truman instructed the State Department to support the U.N. plan, and, reluctantly, it did so. On November 29, 1947, the partition plan was passed in the U.N. General Assembly.
> 
> *UN Resolution 181*, defined the outline of a settlement in Palestine creating both a Jewish and a Palestinian homeland. The 1947 UN Partition divided the area into three entities: a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an international zone around Jerusalem.
> 
> At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed the new State of Israel. On that same date the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the new Jewish state (de jure recognition was extended on January 31). The U.S. delegates to the U.N. and top ranking State Department officials were angered that Truman released his recognition statement to the press without notifying them first. On May 15, 1948, the Arab states issued their response statement and Arab armies invaded Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war began.


Source: Truman Library: The Recognition of the State of Israel Online Research File

Arabs did not accepted Israeli state as per UN mandate, so wars took place between them. The arabs were defeated in 1948 and also in 1967 and Israel gained more territories in the aftermath (earned by it through its victories in wars). 

Now the arabs want Israel to revert back to pre-1967 boundaries. However, Israel refuses.

Therefore, both parties are at fault and not just Israel.


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

muse said:


> See, Tariq, we are not signaling any kind of support of Israeli policy, we are suggesting that Pakistan acknowledge reality, (Israel does exist) and Pakistan act to help both Palestinian and Israelis and that in this way allow Israel to moderate her policies by realizing that it has much to lose by following inhumane policies.



assalam alaikum, 

It is unfair to equate these countries with israel. When our eastern neighbor have some good news with one of our friends ( saudia ,china iran etc ) see how they come and post and try to down us and some of does get effected. They always try to isolate us from our friends. Diplomatically it will be a failure for us ( in some pov) and which make us weak against them ( this is wat happened when india u.s relations got well ). we a nation of 170 million feel bad and failed and feel left alone. Now suppose if we all go and make ties with israel aren't we gonna make their (palestinians) position weak?

Muse, see u and ppl alike u i dont doubt ur niyyat (intentions ). I just dont want the palestinians feel left alone or down them if we cant help them.

Nice to hear from u 
Regards

TARIQ


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## muse

> . I just dont want the palestinians feel left alone or down them if we cant help them.




I take your point, in order to make our voice heard among Palestinians, we must make it heard among the Israeli - inside the Palestinian territories, how many even know where Bakistan is? How many even know what it stands for or how people in a far away country called Pakistan have cared about their fate? 

Really, outside the Palestinian homelands, many Palestinians have heard of Pakistan, know or met Pakistanis, but inside? very few indeed - and it's the same with Israelis, they don't know us, they are isolated from us and it works the same for us - all of this must end, in a global community, no one can afford to be isolated.

Go to post number 82 on the thread linked below -- there is much misery, but there is also hope and there are courageous people of conscience on all sides - better that we know each other than remain in isolation.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/81958-turkey-warns-israel-against-attacks-5.html#post1300967


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum, 

Palestinians r among the most literate ppl in arabs. Since the dish antenna culture and due to aljazeera and alarabia channels now arabs no many things about pakistan.

Pakistan is not in the same league of Egypt ( for the arabs ) and turky which is close to the region they could not do anything to the misery of palestinians.

wo konsi jadoo ki chari hay jisay pakistan her kat day ker un ki maddad karay ga. 

We r losing our bases and dignity to the americans i wish we use that magic stick to help ourselves 1st.

Regards

TARIQ


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## muse

That's an interesting argument, it's sort of "heads I win and tails you lose" -- you say Pakistan cannot effect the lot of the Palestinians, after all, the Egyptians and our brother Turkiye can not change the Palestinians lot -- so why should Pakistan??

I though you just got saying that you cared about the isolation of the Palestinians and did not want them to lose hope? Will they gain or lose hope if we don't even try?


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum, 

Since we r poor country we can't help them build their destroyed homes and fields and also we cant help some of the factions ( like our neighbor do ) with weapons. We should play more active role on all the international forums and use our weight ( if we have ) to show solidarity with palestinians and do seminars ( international ) live on tv. some sort of these activities i know there r many intelligent ppl in the FO that can come up with good ideas. Rally our friendly countries ( i know they r trying but let's try more).

After all there r some ppl always gives us the example of iran that is helping the palestinian cause. Iran is helping them without having relations with israel. I dont think we pakistanies r short of an ideas that we can't come up to help the palestinians without having diplomatic relations. 

TARIQ


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

This is a totally ludicrous discussion in my opinion...

The only way the Jews can remain peacefully in Palestine (and we certainly want this for the Jews) is under a Caliphate... Even an Israeli parliament member agrees with my opinion... Check out this Arab MK... SubhanAllah

Arab MK: Replace Israel with Islamic Caliphate - Politics & Gov't - Israel News - Israel National News


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## muse

> Since we r poor country we can't help them



Well, then apparently we don't care as much as you had contended we care about the isolation of the Palestinian



> Iran is helping them without having relations with israel.



Iran is offering political support to one faction over another, further weakening the negotiating hand of the Palestinian authority - but may be we can do the same and have different factions of Palestinians -- Iran is not poor, how many homes has Iran rebuilt? How many factories and investment has Iran made in Palestinian territories?

These are not strong arguments, actually they are less than weak, they are feeble.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

LeGenD said:


> Islam is opposed to Zionism?
> 
> Let me clarify to you in simple terms about Zionism. It is a political movement to preserve the interests of a jewish state and people.
> 
> Islam has nothing to do with internal affairs of others unless its legitimacy is challenged or muslims are threatened. Pardon my ignornance if I am wrong here.
> 
> 
> As per my limited knowledge, every Quranic verse has a purpose and some specific background to which it can be related or is related.
> 
> Remember that Holy Quran was not revealed to our beloved Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) by Allah Almighty as a *single entity*. Holy Quran was revealed in the form of 'several components', and some components provided solutions to events that took place with passage of time in that blessed land.
> 
> Just citing a single verse can complicate things. This is what our enemies often do. Out of context usage of versus is not advisable.
> 
> The verse you cited is 100% valid in its meaning: _If muslims are being forcibly removed from their homeland, than they have legitimate right to fight back for their homeland._
> 
> If palestinians are fighting to preserve their state, then they have have a legitimate right to resist expansionist movements of their enemies within their homeland. Their cause is absolutely justified.
> 
> However, the verse you cited does not tells anything about recognition of enemy or its state.
> 
> In our time, world is divided in to various states. Every state has existential legitimacy and should be recognized by all other states under existing geopolitical environment.
> 
> Muslims have also split themselves from each other under the existing geopolitical environment. An Islamic super-state or empire no longer exists.
> 
> However, all Islamic nations may carry a responsibility to help an Islamic nation that is suffering from enemy interventions.
> 
> In our case, *we Pakistani do recognize palestinian cause*.
> 
> However, do we have a problem with state of Israel? Israeli people are not forcing Pakistani people out of their homes.
> 
> Therefore, is it wrong for us to recognize the state of Israel?
> 
> If main reason is palestinian cause than how about kashmir dispute?
> 
> As per logic of your arguments, Israel and India are in the same boat and should be treated similarly.
> 
> Get the picture?



Bhai meray... There is no such thing as Palestinian State... or a Palestinian problem... The verse is not talking about Palestinians... It is talking in the most simple terms (as you put it yourself) that if MUSLIMS are being thrown out of their land (like it is thruout the history of Israel, unless you have no idea of their history) then they have to respond and retake their land... This verse is not limited to Ghazwa e Badr rather it is universal... No one has the right to throw anyone out of their land and Muslims are told in no uncertain terms that they have to defend their land and reclaim it... In fact in the hadith it even says that if you let go of a handspan of Muslim land, then prepare for an equal amount in hell fire!!! 

We may not have the political or military power to claim what belongs to us BUT to completely go against the most basic teaching of our creator and to give legitimacy to an act of theft is completely wrong... There is nothing Zid about this issue as another poster has written... The issue is totally clear... Israel was built by the colonialists to keep the Muslim world and particularly the Arab world in a state of decline... The reason why there is a push for the Zionist regime to be recognized by Pakistan is because Pakistan is increasingly coming in a leadership role for Muslims...

Zioinism is an ideology that is not different from Nazism... Replace the Nordic with the Jew and you have a perfect match... You should read up the blog of my friend Gilad Atzmon to understand the thinking of the Israelis... He has served in the Israeli military and was a soldier on duty when Israeli invaded Lebanon...

Furthermore, Islam has everything to do with internal affairs of others...

I have to ask this Legend but have you not come across verses in the Quran where Allah states that Islam has to be victorious over all other ideologies? Have you not read that the Prophet has mentioned that Islam shall dominate all the lands in the east and west? Have you not read about the daughter of Muhammad saw Syeda Fatima having said that Islam shall enter each and every house of the whole world? What are you making of your ideology man? This is not a joke but a serious matter... It has nt been long that the Israelis killed Muslims in a meaningless bloodshed back in 2009 and here you are talking about recognizing Israel as a legitimate state? What is your agenda? You want them to open an embassy in Islamabad and start buying the sell outs amongst us to do their dirty work inside our country? Do we not have plenty of problems already?

You guys have no idea what you are talking about I think... You should pay attention to what an ex President of the US has to say about these people... They are more vicious than snakes, they have nothing to fear now in the Muslim world except Pakistan... If you dont stop for a second and pay attention to what you are saying, you ll be playing in the hands of the enemy and going straight to the mouth of the monster... Unless of course you are working for them already... If that is the case, no amount of discussion will make me change your mind...

BBC NEWS | Americas | Truman diary blasts Jews

and what do you mean by recognition of "the enemy or the state?" What is your criterion of a legitimate state? This is being asked from you numerous times and I have not seen anything that you or the handful of Israeli supporters have dealt with in a proper manner...

Let me try one more time... 

If you are thrown out of your home by a bunch of gangsters... will you give up your right to your home? or fight back to reclaim it? Will you transfer the ownership rights to those gangsters or do everything in your power to get it back?

Apply that to the state then... Like it or not Israel does exist.. the question is do we now give such a state legitimacy? By your law of the jungle then, there is only ownership of the powerful... Let the gangsters come and throw you out of your house!!!

Or how about letting India take away Karachi... Lahore... call it part of India... and we would recognize it as part of the Indian state then... and why are we causing so much trouble in Kashmir... Let the Indians have it... 

Khuda Khuda karo meray bhai... Allah say daro... Allah nay insaan ko jungle kay kanoon par chalnay ko nahee kaha...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Oh and if there is a Qadiani element here... Sorry no further discussion on this then...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

This is how Israel operates by the way... I urge all readers to take caution!!!

Israel recruits citizen advocates in Europe | World news | The Guardian


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## Rain

Conqueror said:


> Quraan - Aal-e-Imran, verse No. 148-149.
> &#1605;&#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1608;! &#1575;&#1711;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1575;&#1601;&#1585;&#1608;&#1722; &#1705;&#1575; &#1705;&#1729;&#1575; &#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1604;&#1608; &#1711;&#1746; &#1578;&#1608; &#1608;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605; &#1705;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1657;&#1746; &#1662;&#1575;&#1572;&#1722; &#1662;&#1726;&#1740;&#1585; &#1705;&#1585; (&#1605;&#1585;&#1578;&#1583; &#1705;&#1585 &#1583;&#1740;&#1722; &#1711;&#1746; &#1662;&#1726;&#1585; &#1578;&#1605; &#1576;&#1681;&#1746; &#1582;&#1587;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1740;&#1722; &#1662;&#1681; &#1580;&#1575;&#1572; &#1711;&#1746; (&#65279;&#1777;&#1780;&#1785;&#65279 (&#1740;&#1729; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1746; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1606;&#1729;&#1740;&#1722; &#1729;&#1740;&#1722 &#1576;&#1604;&#1705;&#1729; &#1582;&#1583;&#1575; &#1578;&#1605;&#1729;&#1575;&#1585;&#1575; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746; &#1575;&#1608;&#1585; &#1608;&#1729; &#1587;&#1576; &#1587;&#1746; &#1576;&#1729;&#1578;&#1585; &#1605;&#1583;&#1583;&#1711;&#1575;&#1585; &#1729;&#1746;
> 
> No my friend, we are better off without making friendship with Israel and expecting any assistance in our defense from them. God has stated in the book and there is no one wiser than God.



Dear This Ayat is in reference to war situattion when muslims were to face non muslims in war. Dont read without context.

Be the way Israel is not only KAFIR, Chinise Jap, US, Srilankans, thais, german, french, Bralian are all KAFIR why u have friendly relations with them?

Neem Mullah Khatra e Eman!


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## 500

safriz said:


> Pakistan's relation with Russia cannot be compared to Pakistan-Israel relation....Unlike Israel which a tiny puny country far far away...Russia is right next doors,and too big to be ignored by Pakistan.
> 
> For your info,in Pakistan on public level there were many protests against miss treatment of Chechnya by Russia.


So its matter of money and power, not matter of principles.



Coltsfan said:


> Cos chechens are not Arab people, speaking arabic language and imbibing arabic culture.


Then Pakistan is champion of Arab cause all over the world, not Islam. Problem is that when Arabs killed each other Pakistan did not care either: when Egypt killed 100K in Yemen, Saddam slaughtered tens of thousands of Shiites, Syria slaughtered in Hamma, Jordan slaughtered Palestinians etc...



Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> This is a totally ludicrous discussion in my opinion...
> 
> The only way the Jews can remain peacefully in Palestine (and we certainly want this for the Jews) is under a Caliphate... *Even an Israeli parliament member agrees with my opinion... Check out this Arab MK*... SubhanAllah
> 
> Arab MK: Replace Israel with Islamic Caliphate - Politics & Gov't - Israel News - Israel National News


That only proves that Israel is a liberal democracy.



safriz said:


> If you look up your ancestry..you may find that your ancestors used to live elsewhere centuries ago...Does that mean you have the right to go and claim that country?


If you look up at Palestinians you will see that Arafat was born in Egypt, and Iz ad din al Qassam was born in Syria.


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## Rain

Pakistan relation with Israel: Pakistan does not recognises Israel because of Arabs, Palestenians, or Muslims Cause but becuase Pakistan has deep friendly relations with Arab Countries( Their Head of States) due to those relations Pakistan does not recognise If KSA and some theres remaining Arab Countries accept Israel surely Pakistan will follow-in this regards Pakistan's hands are tied, Pakistan is not able to use those realtions to Her benefits


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## 500

Rain said:


> Pakistan relation with Israel: Pakistan does not recognises Israel because of Arabs, Palestenians, or Muslims Cause but becuase Pakistan has deep friendly relations with Arab Countries( Their Head of States) due to those relations Pakistan does not recognise If KSA and some theres remaining Arab Countries accept Israel surely Pakistan will follow-in this regards Pakistan's hands are tied, Pakistan is not able to use those realtions to Her benefits


Strange argument. Best friend of Israel is USA.
Best friend of KSA is USA.

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## KS

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> Hello Karthic
> 
> Nice to hear from u. Exactly it is the law of jungle which is imposed on the palestinians. When state of israel came to existence the palestinian land was occupied by the british along with their partners they made the resolution of israel and kicked millions of palestinians from their land. Who gave them this right? No sane person can equally blaim the paletinians and israelies
> 
> Regards
> 
> TARIQ



See then the Israelis can equally blame the Arabs for appropriating what was originally theirs before they reclaimed it after a millenium.

Palestinians have a right to state-hood --- but that is not by "Pushing Israel into the sea" --rather its through recognising Israel as a legitimate entity (not that it matters to Israel who will be there no matter what,but it is good for the Palestinians).

How long are the Palestinians going to be used by the Arabs,Persians and Turks for their own shallow benefits ?

Please dont bring in obtuse concepts like Ummah etc --- In today's world , everyone is to his own.

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## r4rehan

500 said:


> Why Pakistan did not cut diplomatic relationships with Russia, when it was leveling Chechnya then?



why you want that pakistan has to recognize you (isreal) ...

and about Russia we recognized them before chechnye issue 
and we don't hate as much as isreal coz they are Jewish

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Rain said:


> Dear This Ayat is in reference to war situattion when muslims were to face non muslims in war. Dont read without context.
> 
> Be the way Israel is not only KAFIR, Chinise Jap, US, Srilankans, thais, german, french, Bralian are all KAFIR why u have friendly relations with them?
> 
> Neem Mullah Khatra e Eman!



This is also in regard to accepting their ideology which we currently do so... So even though China is our friend, the Ayah is warning Muslims not to adopt their pseudo communism...

We currently adopt the Kuffar's system of Capitalism!!!

All these other countries were not created by displacing the local population of Muslims and using terrorism to make them leave their land... Is that something you are struggling to understand?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

500 said:


> So its matter of money and power, not matter of principles.
> 
> 
> Then Pakistan is champion of Arab cause all over the world, not Islam. Problem is that when Arabs killed each other Pakistan did not care either: when Egypt killed 100K in Yemen, Saddam slaughtered tens of thousands of Shiites, Syria slaughtered in Hamma, Jordan slaughtered Palestinians etc...
> 
> 
> That only proves that Israel is a liberal democracy.
> 
> 
> *If you look up at Palestinians you will see that Arafat was born in Egypt, and Iz ad din al Qassam was born in Syria.*



Yes both to parents who were thrown out of their land by your grandparents...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

500 said:


> So its matter of money and power, not matter of principles.
> 
> 
> Then Pakistan is champion of Arab cause all over the world, not Islam. Problem is that when Arabs killed each other Pakistan did not care either: when Egypt killed 100K in Yemen, Saddam slaughtered tens of thousands of Shiites, Syria slaughtered in Hamma, Jordan slaughtered Palestinians etc...
> 
> 
> *That only proves that Israel is a liberal democracy.*
> 
> 
> If you look up at Palestinians you will see that Arafat was born in Egypt, and Iz ad din al Qassam was born in Syria.



How convenient for you to say this... The poor guy has been getting death threats ever since in your "liberal democracy"... huh


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum,

i m amused just to prove ur point u take half of the sentence and not the whole sentence. Just like non muslims take half of the ayah and argue about it.
But u asked me the solutions which i gave more active work on international forums, Live coverage of seminars on misery of palestinians etc.

I suppose this answer dissoppointed u instead of me calling for jihad, help arms struggle but i gave the solutions wat the civilized world do so my argument is less then weak. 

If we call for fighting and arm struggle we r takfeeries , extremists , do not know the international conditions and if we call for active diplomacy our arguments r weak ( what else is left just bow down).

TARIQ


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Asim Aquil said:


> Obviously what you're saying is not true in actuality and its probably more to do with the Indian flag you're sporting there.
> 
> To be fair to Pakistan, we have on occasion tried to be friendly with Israel but the Israeli press was filled with venom against Pakistan. There are religious concerns and political alignments, but if Israel and Pakistan were not antagonistic at least it would fare off better in our religious and political disagreements as well.
> 
> Everything is inter-connected with the other.



well said sir, well said


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## Bhim

To mai samajhu ye rishta Pakka...

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## 500

r4rehan said:


> why you want that pakistan has to recognize you (isreal) ...


Why not?  But now I am just trying to understand a reason, coz I fail to see any.



> and about Russia we recognized them before chechnye issue
> and we don't hate as much as isreal coz they are Jewish


Before that Russia did even much worse things to Muslims than now: ethnic cleansinsgs in Caucasus and Crimea, during which hundreds of thousands died, Afghanstan war were million died.



Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> How convenient for you to say this... The poor guy has been getting death threats ever since in your "liberal democracy"... huh


"The poor guy" wants to destroy my country and despite this he is sittng in pariament and getting a good wage from country he wants to destroy.

I never heard about any "threats", but if they happen then he will also recieve bodyguards at my expense. So far not a single Arab parliament member was killed in Israel.



Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Yes both to parents who were thrown out of their land by your grandparents...


Both were born well before 1948.


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## Peacefull

Pakistani rulers have no love for Palestinians, 

Pakistan holds an ambition of being Leader of all Oil Rich gulf states, by doing what ? holding their pain nerve called palestine.

People may disagree - but thats the fact.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Peacefull said:


> Pakistani rulers have no love for Palestinians,
> 
> Pakistan holds an ambition of being Leader of all Oil Rich gulf states, by doing what ? holding their pain nerve called palestine.
> 
> People may disagree - but thats the fact.



absolute garbage......even the incumbent administration which many are not so flattering of --has made repeated statements showing solidarity to Palestinians and Palestine itself


as many perceive it as a Middle Eastern issue, what we say has little sway over policy decisions.

you would be surprised how many Pakistanis are operating in Palestine as aid workers, doctors etc.

my aunt spent a 6 year stint in the Gaza strip and is currently writing a book about the Intifida and the conditions in Palestine; drawing parallels to other conflicts like Kashmir

she's a needle in a haystack

of course with flood relief and other social factors, Pakistanis have a duty to serve their own country first before anything else

but to say Pakistan leaders or people having no love for Palestine is absolute garbage and not much else













(anticipating a few remarks about black september now)

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## *Awan*

We should not recognize Israel at any cost.they are cancer to this world and humanity.
what we get by recognizing israel?
nothing
what we get by not recognizing israel?
in simple words
we will not be bitten by same snake from same hole.

look at the history of jews.hint for a rough idea from time period of roman empire to 1948

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## 500

Nomi965 said:


> We should not recognize Israel at any cost.they are cancer to this world and humanity.
> what we get by recognizing israel?
> nothing
> what we get by not recognizing israel?
> in simple words
> we will not be bitten by same snake from same hole.
> 
> look at the history of jews.hint for a rough idea from time period of roman empire to 1948


Keep cursing little terrorist supporter. Jews believe that when evil man is cursing you its a blessing.


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## mjnaushad

500 said:


> Keep cursing little terrorist supporter. Jews believe that when evil man is cursing you its a blessing.


I condemn words like Cancer and stuff to be used for nations but there is one question i want to ask you, Who will decide evil. From your POV only evil dies from Other POV lot of children dies, Women and Old men dies. It all comes to one mans evil other mans saint. 


@ Nomi. Before using such words please think how will you feel if someone same words for your nation.


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## *Awan*

500 said:


> Keep cursing little terrorist supporter. Jews believe that when evil man is cursing you its a blessing.



I am evil and terrorist supporter just because i have picture of a NOBLE MAN in my avatar?
don't tell me what jews believe tell me(i know them wana listen from u) and this world believes of zionists so that they know true face of you people.
and by the way you people are mother of all terrorists.


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## *Awan*

mjnaushad said:


> @ Nomi. Before using such words please think how will you feel if someone same words for your nation.



Why not you educate your self about zionism first?why european expelled jews again and again(from time period of roman empire to 1948)?
do you know how they destroy the countries and societies?
first step:they destroy their economy(banks).take control of trade
2nd step:they destroy their culture and moral values(free massonary,secret socities0
3rd step:they attack on your religion(neocons)
now tell me if you don't call it cancer then what you call it?

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## 500

mjnaushad said:


> I condemn words like Cancer and stuff to be used for nations but there is one question i want to ask you, Who will decide evil. From your POV only evil dies from Other POV lot of children dies, Women and Old men dies. It all comes to one mans evil other mans saint.


One who deliberately kills innocent people is evil no question.



Nomi965 said:


> I am evil and terrorist supporter just because i have picture of a NOBLE MAN in my avatar?
> don't tell me what jews believe tell me(i know them wana listen from u) and this world believes of zionists so that they know true face of you people.
> and by the way you people are mother of all terrorists.


I understand that people with inferiority complexes need someone to hate. I just cant understand how can you still support suicide terorrists after they killed so many of your own people.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

500 said:


> *One who deliberately kills innocent people is evil no question.*
> 
> 
> understand that people with inferiority complexes need someone to hate. I just cant understand how can you still support suicide terorrists after they killed so many of your own people.



That makes Israel evil yeah?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> absolute garbage......even the incumbent administration which many are not so flattering of --has made repeated statements showing solidarity to Palestinians and Palestine itself
> 
> 
> as many perceive it as a Middle Eastern issue, what we say has little sway over policy decisions.
> 
> you would be surprised how many Pakistanis are operating in Palestine as aid workers, doctors etc.
> 
> my aunt spent a 6 year stint in the Gaza strip and is currently writing a book about the Intifida and the conditions in Palestine; drawing parallels to other conflicts like Kashmir
> 
> she's a needle in a haystack
> 
> of course with flood relief and other social factors, Pakistanis have a duty to serve their own country first before anything else
> 
> but to say Pakistan leaders or people having no love for Palestine is absolute garbage and not much else
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (anticipating a few remarks about black september now)



You have to take things in context... Politicians may not care about something but do show solidarity for their own interests... The hallmark of our politicians is that all they care about is their own seats so anything that helps be it fake degree, praying five times a day towards Washington D.C or London or showing solidarity with Palestinians, its all Kosher...

Our very own Gen Zia Ul Haqq whilst stationed in Jordan fought against the rogue Palestinian groups during Black September (and actually killed quite a few of them)... Did you mention Black September for that reason Abu Zolfiqar?

Palestinian Authority is obviously nothing more than a cover and a plan for keeping Palestinians weakend and divided... same goes for Hamas!!!


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## *Awan*

@ 500


> One who deliberately kills innocent people is evil no question.


Thank God you admit yourself that you people are evil.You talked about jewish believes,then please explain these


Maimonides' 13 principles of faith

13 Principles of Faith:

1. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, has no body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that there can be no (physical) comparison to Him whatsoever.
4. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the first and the last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, Blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both those who preceded him and those who followed him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that is now in our possession is the same that was given to Moses our teacher, peace be upon him.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be exchanged, and that there will never be any other Torah from the Creator, Blessed be His Name.
10. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, knows all the deeds of human beings and all their thoughts, as it is written, "Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions" (Psalms 33:15).
11. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, rewards those who keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.
* 12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and even though he may tarry, nonetheless, I wait every day for his coming.*
13. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, Blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted for ever and ever.

-Maimonides


Ten Commandments
1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."

This commandment is to be aware that the God of Israel exists absolutely and influences all events in the world and that the goal of the redemption from Egypt was to become His servants (Rashi). It requires the acknowledgment of the single God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the exclusion of any additional deities.

2. "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

This prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshipping them (aniconism). It also prohibits making an image of the God of Israel for use in worship (see the incident of the golden calf).

3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."

This is a prohibition against making false oaths in the name of the God of Israel, specifically those which are pointless, insincere or never carried out.

4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy reads shamor, "observe")

The seventh day of the week is termed Shabbat and is holy, just as God ceased creative activity during Creation. The aspect of zachor is performed by declaring the greatness of the day (kiddush), by having three festive meals, and by engaging in Torah study and pleasurable activities. The aspect of shamor is performed by abstaining from productive activity (39 melachot) on the Shabbat.

5. "Honor your father and your mother..."

The obligation to honor one's parents is an obligation that one owes to God and fulfills this obligation through one's actions towards one's parents.

* 6. "Do not murder"

Murdering a human being is a capital sin.

7. "Do not commit adultery."

Adultery is defined as sexual intercourse between a man and a married woman who is not his wife.

8. "Do not steal."



9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"



10. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife"

*




> I understand that people with inferiority complexes need someone to hate.


hahaha.
when we curse some one we just say o jew!!!!!


> I just cant understand how can you still support suicide terorrists after they killed so many of your own people.


Try to educate yourself about takfiri and kharji ideology then argue.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

in my very humble opinion we should try to avoid discussions on religion as those tend to be quite private and personal; the debate has more political ramifications than anything else ---even though these are 2 unique countries founded around the same time on religious lines

religion plays huge role in our existence; but it is mostly political reasons that we do not recognize eachother

had Pakistan not been so over-whelmed by man-made poltical crises, we could have played a role (as neutral non-Arab party) in whatever way we could to help serve as mediator to the problem of Palestine-israel -- in a pragmatic and just way. Of course we still have our own un-resolved disputes with the neighbour country and that also needs to be approached in mature and productive manner which i dont see being done anytime soon --more so because of beliggerance of the other side but also because of apathy by current govt.

it would be interesting to see a survey conducted in both Pakistan and israel to ascertain and get a glimpse of sentiments for one another based on carefully worded questions and a representative sample 

given public sentiment in Pakistan over Palestine issue as well as the still fresh in minds Flotilla attack; as well as israeli perception of Pakistan's alignment with Arab states and the political instability in Pakistan --i'm sure both sides have a lot of mutually held misunderstanding and even suspicion for eachother. Nevertheless it would be interesting to see and read about

i wouldnt be against both countries exchanging journalists and/or scholars --it could be quite interesting......Pakistan would probably be more open to the idea than israel would, realistically speaking


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## 500

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> That makes Israel evil yeah?





Nomi965 said:


> @ 500
> 
> Thank God you admit yourself that you people are evil.


Unlike Hamas, Israel is not targeting civilians.



> You talked about jewish believes,then please explain these


What I need to explain here?


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## Safriz

Please dont target any member and keep the discussion general..


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

We dont curse people saying O Jew... what a bad thing to say... Jews have contributed to human civilization tremendously... so my dear Nomi (whoever you are) you should not say things like this...

The anger that God shows towards Bani Israel in the Quran is not to be generalized towards all Jews... God gets angry at all those who break his laws and cause corruption and bloodshed on earth... This could be Hindus, Christians, Jews and even Muslims... so please watch what you say...

As for Israel... its the manifestation of the Zionist ideology that has to be stopped and destroyed... Let the Jews taste the beauty of Islam and its justice... We have great hopes about the Jews of occupied Palestine... They shall be valuable citizens of the Caliphate God willing... except those who fight us just because we are Muslims...

Mr 500... I know way too much about Israel... Your people have placed bombs in toys and targeted children and even killed them... So keep your vicious false propaganda to yourself... People like you make me sick who lie so blatantly that they start believing their own lies!!!

EDIT: I have actually seen the dead body of a child killed due to booby trapped toy by Israeli soldiers... You may fool the uninformed but you cannot fool those who know your games...


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## 500

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Mr 500... I know way too much about Israel... Your people have placed bombs in toys and targeted children and even killed them... So keep your vicious false propaganda to yourself... People like you make me sick who lie so blatantly that they start believing their own lies!!!
> 
> EDIT: I have actually seen the dead body of a child killed due to booby trapped toy by Israeli soldiers... You may fool the uninformed but you cannot fool those who know your games...


"Booby trapped toys" - is classical accusation for demonizing of the opposite side. First were Nazis who accused allys of using them. Then US accused USSR of using them in Afghanistan, then Arabs started accusig Israel, then US accused Iraqi insurgency... I guess in every conflict u can find these accusations today.

There is no any evidence of Israel using them and there is no any motive for Israel to use them. On contrary, Israel is interested to minimise the civilian casualties thats why we use very expensive smart bombs and send our troops inside. Palestinians on contrary are interested in high civilian casualties to cause international uproar. Thats why they drag battle into heavy populated areas and fire missiles from there:


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

You have civilians in Israel? 

Last I checked all of you train in the military and possess weapons at home... 

I knew you will try to divert the accusation of killing children... If I had not seen it with my own eyes perhaps I would have given you the benefit of doubt...


----------



## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

oh and the second pic seems like firecrackers as they are not going anywhere except up!!!


----------



## Waffen SS

What has Pakistan got to do with Israel ?

As they in Punjabi "Parai janj which ahmuq nacchay".
Translation: Idiots dancing in an unknown wedding party.


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Waffen SS said:


> What has Pakistan got to do with Israel ?
> 
> As they in Punjabi "Parai janj which ahmuq nacchay".
> Translation: Idiots dancing in an unknown wedding party.



I m sorry I dont see it this way... Will you ever think this way if your pukhtoon brothers were in some trouble... As a Pakistani I think you will look after the Pukhtoon or Balochi or Sindhi... So why make a distinction with Palestinians?


----------



## 500

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> You have civilians in Israel?


Israel's population is 7 mln, army - 180 K. That means over 6.8 mln are civilans.



> Last I checked all of you train in the military and possess weapons at home...


No Israelis dont posess weapons at home, its Switzerland where reservists poses weapons home.



> I knew you will try to divert the accusation of killing children... If I had not seen it with my own eyes perhaps I would have given you the benefit of doubt...


I served in Israely army for 3 years and I know that you are talking nonsense. I beleieve my eyes more than yours.



> oh and the second pic seems like firecrackers as they are not going anywhere except up!!!


Its matter of perspective.

YouTube - 2 Qassams are launched while CNN's Paula Hancocks reports from the border, red alert


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## Waffen SS

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> I m sorry I dont see it this way... Will you ever think this way if your pukhtoon brothers were in some trouble... As a Pakistani I think you will look after the Pukhtoon or Balochi or Sindhi... So why make a distinction with Palestinians?



To be brutally honest, I don't expect any help from my so and so brothers if I am in trouble. Therefore, these brothers can't seriously expect me to help them.

I will always discriminate against palestinians in favor of my countrymen. I will not shy away from chosing my fellow countrymen over arabs.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Waffen SS said:


> To be brutally honest, I don't expect any help from my so and so brothers if I am in trouble. Therefore, these brothers can't seriously expect me to help them.
> 
> I will always discriminate against palestinians in favor of my countrymen. I will not shy away from chosing my fellow countrymen over arabs.



assalam alaikum

After 1998 nuclear blast they (gulf states even if it is one country) helped us , they helped us after the earthquake in 2005 they helped us now after floods, I saw an interview of mohammad zaki yamani on aljzaeera where he claimes saudia was helping pakistan or giving assistance of between 300 - 350 USD millions during the eighties. Going by the past STAT they will help us in futur if we need it ( i hope we never need assistance from anyone which is a dream). Remember most of the muslim countries r poor only few that r rich they help us as stated above and most of us know it why always questioning their intentions.

Nobody said dont help sindhies balochies or punjabies ur fellow countrymen but why not help the others if u can.

Regards.

TARIQ


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Waffen SS said:


> To be brutally honest, I don't expect any help from my so and so brothers if I am in trouble. Therefore, these brothers can't seriously expect me to help them.
> 
> I will always discriminate against palestinians in favor of my countrymen. I will not shy away from chosing my fellow countrymen over arabs.



well then your criterion is arbitrary... i would rather help a child in Gaza then a snake like Zardari... 

we need to stop thinking inside the box... or for lines that the colonialists have sketched around us to divide us...


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Mr 500... Dont try to act smart...

The proof is documented in this video...

Amazon.com: Gaza Strip: James Longley: Movies & TV


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## 500

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Mr 500... Dont try to act smart...
> 
> The proof is documented in this video...
> 
> Amazon.com: Gaza Strip: James Longley: Movies & TV


Since when movie becme a proof for something? If you have proofs go to court.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*ISI Chief Met Israelis to Stop India Attack: WikiLeaks​*


> ISLAMABAD: The chief of Pakistan&#8217;s spy agency said he had contacted Israeli officials to head off potential attacks on Israeli targets in India, according to an October 2009 US diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks.
> 
> Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, head of Pakistan&#8217;s Inter-Services Intelligence agency, told former US Ambassador Anne Patterson that he wanted Washington to know he had been to Oman and Iran &#8220;to follow up on reports which he received in Washington about a terrorist attack on India&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;Pasha asked Ambassador to convey to Washington that he had followed up on threat information that an attack would be launched against India between September-November. He had been in direct touch with the Israelis on possible threats against Israeli targets in India,&#8221; the Oct 7, 2009 cable reported.
> 
> An ISI spokesman had no immediate comment.





ISI chief met Israelis to stop India attack: WikiLeaks | Pakistan | DAWN.COM


if true, it would prove to be a nice slap & backslap in the face to the indians who for years have claimed ISI complicity in this attack


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

If anyone thinks that Israel is a good ally, they are wrong.

We being Muslims know Israelis better than anyone.

They are using countries like India so that Pakistan, who is the only Muslim Nuclear Power in the world, creates no hurdle in their grand plan to make GREATER ISRAEL.

When these people did not even trust the Prophets, how can anyone trust them?


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## India Rising

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> I want Indians to be clear that if they think that Israel is their good friend, they are wrong.
> We know Israelis better than you.
> 
> They are using you so that Pakistan, who is the only Muslim Nuclear Power in the world, creates no hurdle in their grand plan to make GREATER ISRAEL.
> 
> When these people did not even trust the Prophets, how can anyone trust them?


let them use us.. we won't mind


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

India Rising said:


> let them use us.. we won't mind



I think you did'nt get my point. They care for no one. They will eliminate India as well. . . If you want that???


----------



## India Rising

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> I think you did'nt get my point. They care for no one. They will eliminate India as well. . . If you want that???


why they will eliminate us ??? any motive you can think of ??? how we can forget, how much they help us during kargil.... and i dont know why pakistanis are in confrontation with israeil .. they do not have any conflict with them .


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## India Rising

relation with israel is at parity... not like master and slave.. it is economy stupid !!


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

India Rising said:


> why they will eliminate us ??? any motive you can think of ??? how we can forget, how much they help us during kargil.... and i dont know why pakistanis are in confrontation with israeil .. they do not have any conflict with them .



that is what you need to understand. They have a global plan to conquer the world so that their Messiah can come and they can live in their promised land of Israel. For that they have to be a super power that has control over the world even India. .


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## 500

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> that is what you need to understand. They have a global plan to conquer the world so that their Messiah can come and they can live in their promised land of Israel. For that they have to be a super power that has control over the world even India. .



YouTube - Borat - Throw the Jew Down the Well!!

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## Safriz

500 said:


> YouTube - Borat - Throw the Jew Down the Well!!



Whats the purpose of posting this anti semantic video on this thread?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

it was a test to see how many evil Muslims celebrate the post......

funny thing is, Borat AKA Ali G AKA Sacha Baron Cohen is a Jew himself

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## Bhim

500 said:


> YouTube - Borat - Throw the Jew Down the Well!!



Like the Jews we have the Banias...they can go down the well with them..


PS- Its only a joke..


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## Bhim

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> that is what you need to understand. They have a global plan to conquer the world so that their Messiah can come and they can live in their promised land of Israel. For that they have to be a super power that has control over the world even India. .



Man can you ever come out of the holy texts and start living a realistic life.


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## ARSENAL6

500 said:


> YouTube - Borat - Throw the Jew Down the Well!!



Isn't that supporting anti-semitic 500 ?

Come from Israel do you ?


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## ARSENAL6

500 said:


> Since when movie becme a proof for something? If you have proofs go to court.



Since when did hiding & falsifying the facts, twisting the truth, killing anyone who exposes evil became a way of representing facts and settting them in stone ?

I think its adorable when Israelis are proven wrong, they bust out the violin and&#65279; act like they are the victims. Wake up , you people are illegally occupying another country, you people are reducing millions of people to live like animals, you are destroying homes and ruining lives so you can build your settlements you are bombing schools and hospitals and UN buildings. Get out of Palestine give back the land and let everyone enjoy the peace !


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## 500

ARSENAL6 said:


> Since when did hiding & falsifying the facts, twisting the truth, killing anyone who exposes evil became a way of representing facts and settting them in stone ?


I believe in presumption of innocence. So if you accuse Israelis of doing something you should prove it.



> I think its adorable when Israelis are proven wrong, they bust out the violin and&#65279; act like they are the victims.


I only asked proofs for his claims.



> Wake up , you people are illegally occupying another country,


First of all Palestine was never a country, secondly Israelis are staying there according to Oslo agreements.



> you people are reducing millions of people to live like animals, you are destroying homes and ruining lives so you can build your settlements you are bombing schools and hospitals and UN buildings.


That's not true. Life standards of Palestinians are higher than average third world country, for example neighbour Egypt.



> Get out of Palestine give back the land and let everyone enjoy the peace !


We tred that with Gaza, and what happened? - They started firing rockets all over. If we go out without agreement from West Bank too then rockets will fall on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

I dont mind giving them West Bank, but first they should recognize Israel in agreed borders and give up all their claims.


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## PakSher

People are PDF very educated about Palestine and illegal settlement building in Jerusalem and Palestine. Lets stay with facts and lets try not to manipulate the facts.

Israeli Attrocities in Gaza are known worldwide, next argument please.....

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## Rumporum

PakSher said:


> People are PDF very educated about Palestine and illegal settlement building in Jerusalem and Palestine. Lets stay with facts and lets try not to manipulate the facts.
> 
> Israeli Attrocities in Gaza are known worldwide, next argument please.....



Yeah right....and Hamas is an organisation of angels.. for your information these Kassam's are landing on our side till date ( last one 2 days ago luckily without any casualties) there has not been any response from our side.

Israeli atrocities? what about Hamas atrocities on their own people and Israeli civilians?


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Rumporum said:


> Yeah right....and Hamas is an organisation of angels.. for your information these Kassam's are landing on our side till date ( last one 2 days ago luckily without any casualties) there has not been any response from our side.



the Hell with your side. What about the invasions you make in Palestinian land. You captured their lands and kill them in their own lands.














Rumporum said:


> Israeli atrocities? what about Hamas atrocities on their own people and Israeli civilians?




oh yeah.. . but there is a difference between the atrocites by Israeli and killings by Palestinian


THIS IS WHAT ISRAEL DID WHEN 2 OF THEIR SOLDIERS WERE KILLED:





 
ISRAEL IS AN ENEMY OF HUMANITY !


----------



## 500

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> the Hell with your side. What about the invasions you make in Palestinian land. You captured their lands and kill them in their own lands.


We captured these lands from Egypt and Jordan. Before we captured them Palestinans were third class citizens there.

Here some statstics. Comparing situation when Israel entered Gaza in 1967 and left Gaza in 2005:


----------------------------- 1967 --------- 2005
population ----------------- 390 K ------- 1,400 K
average life expectancy -- 45 years ---- 72 years
infant mortality ------------- 170 ----------- 21
no. of uni and colleges ------- 0 ------------- 7

These are results of "brutal occupation" and "genocide".



> oh yeah.. . but there is a difference between the atrocites by Israeli and killings by Palestinian


Of course there is a difference. Groups like Hamas deliberately kill civilians. They try to kil as much civilians as possible. 



> THIS IS WHAT ISRAEL DID WHEN 2 OF THEIR SOLDIERS WERE KILLED:


If you talk about 2006 Lebanon war, then you should list events properly:

1) Since Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 to 2006 Hezbollah was making constant provocatons, regulary firing at Israel. Hezbollah did not allow Lebanese army to enter in South Lebanon, so South Lebanon was exclusive "Hezbollaland".
2) Israel did not retaliate during all this time.
3) In august 2006 Hezbollah killed 12 soldiers and hijacked 2 bodies, shelled Israeli communities near border with mortars.
4) In retaliation Israel bombed Hezbollah positions and bridges in south Lebanon.
5) After that Hezbollah started massive rocket attack at all towns and villages in north Israel, indiscriminately shelling civilian neighborhoods.
6) Then Israel employet massive force as well, attacking Lebanese and Hezbollah infrastructres all over Lebanon sending ground troops inside. 

This is how the war started. As result of the war Hezbollah provocations stopped. For over 4 years border is calm and no one is dying (eccept one border clash when Lebanese killed 1 Israeli soldier and Israel killed 2 soldiers in return).


----------



## Rumporum

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> the Hell with your side. What about the invasions you make in Palestinian land. You captured their lands and kill them in their own lands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh yeah.. . but there is a difference between the atrocites by Israeli and killings by Palestinian
> 
> 
> THIS IS WHAT ISRAEL DID WHEN 2 OF THEIR SOLDIERS WERE KILLED:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISRAEL IS AN ENEMY OF HUMANITY !



There was no state of Palestine.... also we did not start the wars in 1948 nor the one in 1967 get your historic facts straight.

As for the 2006 Levanon war is concerned it was Nasrallah who started that and paid the consequences which he himself admitted that he miscalculated Israeli response and had he known that he wouldn't have started it


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

500 said:


> Since when movie becme a proof for something? If you have proofs go to court.



It shows the boy who was killed by your troops using a toy bomb...

What courts? You think Israeli courts are some sort of distributers of Justice? 

You are a bad joker indeed... You get the bad comedy award of PDF for the year 2010...

.....

I urge all readers to check this documentary out... It would prove to all of you that this 500 here is nothing but a fraud and a cheat possibly being paid to do his fake propaganda on behalf of Israel...


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## Rumporum

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Mr 500... Dont try to act smart...
> 
> The proof is documented in this video...
> 
> Amazon.com: Gaza Strip: James Longley: Movies & TV



The point being??? 

If you have evidence/Proof then go to the Intl court of justice..else this is just propaganda. Remember there are always 2 sides of a coin


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Rumporum said:


> The point being???
> 
> If you have evidence/Proof then go to the Intl court of justice..else this is just propaganda. Remember there are always 2 sides of a coin



Can we divide the award into two?

A court is soon to come to Palestine my friend... and we shall be fairer to you than the Nuremberg trials...


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## Waffen SS

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> well then your criterion is arbitrary... i would rather help a child in Gaza then a snake like Zardari...
> 
> we need to stop thinking inside the box... or for lines that the colonialists have sketched around us to divide us...



If I have to choose between Zardari and a palestinian, I would choose Zardari no matter how wretched and evil he is. He is a Pakistani and thus he will be preferred over a palestinian.

Now, if you want to judge me, abuse me or curse me for that, you are most welcome.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Waffen SS said:


> If I have to choose between Zardari and a palestinian, I would choose Zardari no matter how wretched and evil he is. He is a Pakistani and thus he will be preferred over a palestinian.
> 
> Now, if you want to judge me, abuse me or curse me for that, you are most welcome.



Il chose a talkin dolphin or a rock over ghadari any day.


----------



## SQ8

That is not exactly going to be possible..
The founder's of Israel..(and I dont mean that pathetic man Balfour)..rather the original jewish settlers were so desperate to leave europe and find a home that they turned zion into life itself..
Those people inculcated the "all of Israel" is your philosophy into the coming generations.. To top it off.. the Arabs tried unsuccessfully to wipe out Israel twice.. would more aggressive peace initiatives..and taming down the Palestinian fighters have helped? possibly.. it would have taken a massive morsel of pride to swallow..but it would have prevented the bloodshed by Israeli's in reprisal for the bombings.
Now.. more and more hardline orthodox jews are forming the population of Israel..and these people consider themselves on a religious war with everyone else..unlike the founders.. who were obsessed with survival..these people are obsessed with domination.
Peace in middle east..will be even more elusive than it was 30 to 40 years ago.


----------



## Waffen SS

Pakistan should use Israel to BLACKMAIL the arabs in our own national interests. Israel is a very important card which, if used carefully, will benefit Pakistan.

Whenever these arabs try to get near India, simply blackmail them that Pakistan would recognize Israel. These arabs would quickly **** in their pants and return to their senses.

When will we ever learn to use deciet, lies, blackmailing in our DIPLOMATIC AFFAIRS.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Waffen SS said:


> Pakistan should use Israel to BLACKMAIL the arabs in our own national interests. Israel is a very important card which, if used carefully, will benefit Pakistan.
> 
> Whenever these arabs try to get near India, simply blackmail them that Pakistan would recognize Israel. These arabs would quickly **** in their pants and return to their senses.
> 
> When will we ever learn to use deciet, lies, blackmailing in our DIPLOMATIC AFFAIRS.



Blackmail for wat?


Talk some sense pal.No negativity man!


----------



## 500

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> It shows the boy who was killed by your troops using a toy bomb...


It does not. If there was such evidence it would be distributed all over.



> What courts? You think Israeli courts are some sort of distributers of Justice?


International courts.



> You are a bad joker indeed... You get the bad comedy award of PDF for the year 2010...


Yes, just because you cant provide evidence for your claims.


----------



## Waffen SS

This is what happens when leaders and generals forget what CLAUSEWITZ talks about the art and philosophy of war.

Nations get a single chance in centuries to destroy their enemy; once that chance has been wasted, they will have no choice but to wait for a very long time.

The arabs had a real chance of destroying Israel in 1948. They threw it away and then were humiliated from 1967 onwards.


----------



## Rumporum

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> Can we divide the award into two?
> 
> A court is soon to come to Palestine my friend... and we shall be fairer to you than the Nuremberg trials...



There was no state called Palestine... in future maybe and Who is we...


----------



## PakiiZeeshan

UAE and Syria are supporting India for a seat in the UN. arabs are openly showing support for india.


----------



## Iqbal_Brar

PakiiZeeshan said:


> UAE and Syria are supporting India for a seat in the UN. arabs are openly showing support for india.



because syria and even egypt have long ties with india.. more than 60 years.. egypt and syria even helped each other make fighter plane.. egypts first fighter HA-300 Helwan Helwan HA-300 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

uae and other arab countries support india because they benefit from partnership from bigger economy..


----------



## PakiiZeeshan

Exactly. Nobody in reality gives a damn for Muslim brotherhood or the so called Ummah.


----------



## The Clarifier

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Exactly. Nobody in reality gives a damn for Muslim brotherhood or the so called Ummah.



That's the reason it is in bad shape right now.

Nationalism = good

Too much nationalism = Bad. Putting your country over the greater muslim world.


----------



## Safriz

If Muslim countries had 10&#37; of the unity which European Union has...things would have been different..
Even if Muslim countries agree to buy each others products instead of buying from elsewhere an enormous financial benefit an be achieved by all...
Looking at the fact that apart from being Muslim,these countries are mostly third worls who need markets and buyers...such an agreement makes sense.

Countries need a basis to join hands...EU made geographical area and a common culture as their basis of Unity...Wont be anything wrong with Muslim countries making religion as their basis of Unity.


----------



## PakiiZeeshan

Pakistan should start showing support for Israel.

Forget the arabs and their palestine


----------



## Safriz

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Pakistan should start showing support for Israel.
> 
> Forget the arabs and their palestine



Before making such short comments,mind sifting through the 70 pages of the thread..This argument has been discussed over a dozen time in this thread..Kindly come up with something new.


----------



## F-16_Falcon

We can have a good relationship with israel only when they fulfill the Palestine freedom movement.

We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle

YouTube - We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle


----------



## FreekiN

F-16_Falcon said:


> We can have a good relationship with israel only when they fulfill the Palestine freedom movement.
> 
> We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle
> 
> YouTube - We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle



>implying that video had anything even remotely to do with Israel or Palestine.


----------



## Rumporum

F-16_Falcon said:


> We can have a good relationship with israel only when they fulfill the Palestine freedom movement.
> 
> We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle
> 
> YouTube - We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle



What is this Pakistan's Invasion plans music video or what?? and how do you plan to come swimming?


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

why war-monger......we have enough enemies yaar.

nobody enjoys reading about treatment of Palestinians. But I do partly blame the Palestinians.

why?


because they are in total disunity. And we saw it when Fatah and Hamas were duking it out on the streets. They need to also unite for a common cause.

both sides need to stop hostilities against eachother if there is any hope for a pragmatic and just solution

to be honest, under netanyahu government --the illegal settlement building wont stop; nor will the mutual hatred and suspicion



but as Pakistanis, we should also not embroil ourselves too much in something we have zero control over......it's one thing to just talk, it's another thing to actually do something proactively

we should help make ourselves and our country stronger.......and also do something to solve our own ongoing disputes (e.g. Kashmir)


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

Rumporum said:


> What is this Pakistan's Invasion plans music video or what?? and how do you plan to come swimming?



whole world would be a bit more peaceful if everyone in their lifetime could enjoy the sun & the Red Sea


----------



## F-16_Falcon

FreekiN said:


> >implying that video had anything even remotely to do with Israel or Palestine.



that is a massage to israeli zionists. is not it good? i like it very much.


----------



## F-16_Falcon

Rumporum said:


> What is this Pakistan's Invasion plans music video or what??



This is a massage for israeli zionists. pakistanis will not be happy if the palestinians are not given their land back. you face the consequence. 






> and how do you plan to come swimming?



pakistan has powerful navy. we got f-22p and perry class frigate. buying more advanced ships from china.


----------



## 500

F-16_Falcon said:


> We can have a good relationship with israel only when they fulfill the Palestine freedom movement.
> 
> We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle
> 
> YouTube - We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle



Cool video, but why "Palestinians girls" wear shalvar kamiz and "Israeli soldiers" are in British helmets with G3 rifles?


----------



## PakiiZeeshan

F-16_Falcon,

Do you want our soldiers to die for arabs?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

500 said:


> Cool video, but why "Palestinians girls" wear shalvar kamiz and "Israeli soldiers" are in British helmets with G3 rifles?



U evil zoinist Jew infidel

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## Waffen SS

F-16_Falcon said:


> We can have a good relationship with israel only when they fulfill the Palestine freedom movement.
> 
> We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle
> 
> YouTube - We Are Coming Palestinian Sisters (Pakistan Vs Israel) Final Battle



So they are going to palestine to woo palestinian girls. Are there no girls left in our country.

What nonsense.


----------



## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

PakiiZeeshan said:


> F-16_Falcon,
> 
> Do you want our soldiers to die for arabs?



assalam alaikum

Mohammad bin alqasim was an arabic, Tariq bin ziyad was an amazigh ( which r wrongly called barbar), Salah Uddin was a kurdish they all didnot fight for any race or piece of land it was for an ideology and help the oppressed the ppl in hind, spain or to liberate the holy lands from the crusaders. I guess u know what they achieved for islam and muslims will never forget them.

Regarding ur question we r dieing in some other's war of terror to die for the first holy masjid is more rewarding in islam.

TARIQ

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## *Awan*

500 said:


> Unlike Hamas, Israel is not targeting civilians.


Fundamental signs to recognize you people
1) liars
2)do things from whom you are forbidden.(worshiping of calf,fishing on sabat,killing innocent people)



> What I need to explain here?



12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and even though he may tarry, nonetheless, I wait every day for his coming.
this messiah part.your believe and actions that you arer doing so that you shorten the time of his arrival.

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## Xestan

Well, Satan has betrayed many of us, we think, we are Arabs, Irani, Iraqi, Indians, Pakistani, Indonesians. But this is not our Lord (swt) thinks, nor our Prophet (sws) think this way.

Muslims are just one nation, and our identity is Allah (swt) and His Messengers.

If you want to love Muslim Ummah, then recite Surah Al-Kafirun, I have felt this surah&#8217;s effect on my heart.

Also, Prophet (sws) said.

The Muslim Ummah is like one body. If the eye is in pain then the whole body is in pain and if the head is in pain then the whole body is in pain.

Take your brothers and don&#8217;t despise them whether they are sufis, brawlevis, shia, sunni, wahabi, deobandi, they all constitute a Muslim Ummah. You should try to guide them but never despise them, because it will neither benefit you nor Islam nor whole Muslim Ummah.

As we are divided into false nations, Allama Muhammad Iqbal said.

Urdu:
IN TAZA KHUDAON MAI BARA SAB SE WATAN HAI
JO PERHAN IS KA HAI WO MAZHAB KA KAFAN HAI

English:
In the recent false gods, nation is most great
The home of this false god is a coffin of religion 

As far as Habul-Watni (love for country) is concerned, we all love a place where we are born, but think wide, all of this earth is our Watn (country).

Allama Iqbal said,

Urdu:
chino arab hamara, hindustan hamara
muslim hai ham, watan hai sara jahan hamara

English:
China belongs to us, India belongs to us
We are Muslims, entire earth belong to us

Then our elderly people said

Unity is strength.

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## r4rehan

PakiiZeeshan said:


> F-16_Falcon,
> 
> Do you want our soldiers to die for arabs?




hey do u not know that our soldiers are dieing for the American(infidel) it will be Gr8 if they will shaheed for our own ppl our own brothers our own sisters and our own religion 

war on terror is not our war 

but (Muslim) Afghan Taliban was our frnd those were fighting with USSR for Pakistan\s Warm Water (Afghan Taliban not TTP) 

But USA was sending a Carrier in 1971 which din't come yet 
USA are seeing toward our Nukes 
USA are not stopping Indian those are inter fairing in my beloved pakistan's part (Balochistan) 
USA a giving power to india which can be use on Pakistan 

am a common man of pakistan and i am confuse who are my frnd and who are my enemy 

u know when pakistan tested it's 1st Nuke Palastinies allot sweets in Happiness  ALLAH bless them and Bless every muslim in a word

<(_|_)| ko mun dikhane layak tu honge  

 zindabad

<(_|_)| U AKBAR

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## *Awan*

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> in my very humble opinion we should try to avoid discussions on religion as those tend to be quite private and personal; the debate has more political ramifications than anything else ---even though these are 2 unique countries founded around the same time on religious lines
> 
> religion plays huge role in our existence; but it is mostly political reasons that we do not recognize eachother
> 
> had Pakistan not been so over-whelmed by man-made poltical crises, we could have played a role (as neutral non-Arab party) in whatever way we could to help serve as mediator to the problem of Palestine-israel -- in a pragmatic and just way. Of course we still have our own un-resolved disputes with the neighbour country and that also needs to be approached in mature and productive manner which i dont see being done anytime soon --more so because of beliggerance of the other side but also because of apathy by current govt.
> 
> it would be interesting to see a survey conducted in both Pakistan and israel to ascertain and get a glimpse of sentiments for one another based on carefully worded questions and a representative sample
> 
> given public sentiment in Pakistan over Palestine issue as well as the still fresh in minds Flotilla attack; as well as israeli perception of Pakistan's alignment with Arab states and the political instability in Pakistan --i'm sure both sides have a lot of mutually held misunderstanding and even suspicion for eachother. Nevertheless it would be interesting to see and read about
> 
> i wouldnt be against both countries exchanging journalists and/or scholars --it could be quite interesting......Pakistan would probably be more open to the idea than israel would, realistically speaking



I don't understand what we can get by recognizing Israel
1)weapons
what is the guarantee that indians don't have access to source codes
2)we become free from foreign debt 
who done more good to jews than Americans and brits.why jews can't clean their debts after all they own banks.
3)we can help Palestinian in batter way?
in the way egyptions and turks(they are better all of us,but this zionist snake also not forgive them) are doing?
4)terror attacks in Pakistan will decrease/stopped?
there is more better way to do this,arm hammas and play a bigger role in middle east(fry mubarik and do every thing so that akhwan ul muslemeen come in power)
5)they don't sell weapon to india?
keep dreaming.

and you are military professional.i assume you also know their activities in Pakistan.i can't go in detail in this because this thing is very much sensitive.

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## Xestan

r4rehan said:


> but (Muslim) Afghan Taliban was our frnd those were fighting with USSR for Pakistan\s Warm Water (Afghan Taliban not TTP)



Afghan Mujahideen are still our friends 

Don't confuse yourself ever, Just wanna give you insight, ISI is no fool, Afghan Taliban are supported by us, don't worry, Crusaders are going soon

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## r4rehan

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> Afghan Mujahideen are still our friends
> 
> Don't confuse yourself ever, Just wanna give you insight, ISI is no fool, Afghan Taliban are supported by us, don't worry, Crusaders are going soon



hm...... who are responsible ?? Musharaf or Mulla Umar ??? i think Musharaf ...... coz Mulla Umar Din't Give a Air basis against Pakistan and 9/11 who did that ?? CIA or AL-Qaida i don't know but i know just one that they were not Afghan Taliban so why USA killing them on their soil if they din't kill any one on soil of USA ???? 

Taliban will be our frnd again don't worry ...

but USA cant ..... 

YAHOD AUR NASARA TUMHARE DOST NAHI HOSAKTY WO AK DOSRY KY DOST HIAN (QURAN) 

ALLAH sab janta hai mere bhai  

 zindabad

<(_|_)| U AKBAR


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## Xestan

r4rehan said:


> hm...... who are responsible ?? Musharaf or Mulla Umar ??? i think Musharaf ...... coz Mulla Umar Din't Give a Air basis against Pakistan and 9/11 who did that ?? CIA or AL-Qaida i don't know but i know just one that they were not Afghan Taliban so why USA killing them on their soil if they din't kill any one on soil of USA ????
> 
> Taliban will be our frnd again don't worry ...
> 
> but USA cant .....
> 
> YAHOD AUR NASARA TUMHARE DOST NAHI HOSAKTY WO AK DOSRY KY DOST HIAN (QURAN)
> 
> ALLAH sab janta hai mere bhai
> 
> zindabad
> 
> <(_|_)| U AKBAR



You really missed my point brother, I said Afghan Taliban ARE our friends, even now, ISI is supporting them, that's not a hidden thing now, Americans are being played double game 

Taliban are giving a hard time to US troops and Pakistanis military loves it 

Somethings are not visible on ground but they do exist..

Never doubt Pakistan Army's intentions, they know what's best for us..

Mullah Umar is a hero, Mushi was a traitor


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## *Awan*

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> We dont curse people saying O Jew... what a bad thing to say... Jews have contributed to human civilization tremendously... so my dear Nomi (whoever you are) you should not say things like this...


well if you have some connection with pak then i think it is not difficult to guess actual name of person if his nick name is 'nomi'
i m Pakistani ,punjabi(pothohar),tehsil gujar khan.don't u think its enough.
my above words have background.when he say me 'person with inferiority complex' then i use these words in order to you mirror to the 'chosen one'.actually no matter what they can do they can't hide their inner hate against 'gentiles'


> The anger that God shows towards Bani Israel in the Quran is not to be generalized towards all Jews... God gets angry at all those who break his laws and cause corruption and bloodshed on earth... This could be Hindus, Christians, Jews and even Muslims... so please watch what you say...


agreed.


> As for Israel... its the manifestation of the Zionist ideology that has to be stopped and destroyed...


we should take practical steps for it.first step is to educate masses and arming hamas.


> Let the Jews taste the beauty of Islam and its justice... We have great hopes about the Jews of occupied Palestine... They shall be valuable citizens of the Caliphate God willing... except those who fight us just because we are Muslims...


inshallah.when good people among jews and Christians see 'lost ark' in our hand then definitely they accept islam as their religion.jews them selves say that when we rule spain that is there golden time.look how caliph umar ra treated them,how we treated them in spain,how turks treat them and in return what we get?


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## r4rehan

Crusaders has been begun janu 

apna apna eman bachaoo bass  

 zindabad

<(_|_)| HU AKBAR


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## SEAL

Currently we have no conflicts with Israelis emotions aside when it comes to Muslim brotherhood indians killed more Muslims in Kashmir and Gujrat than Israel in Palestine, first we have to solve problem in neighbor and india is also a threat to our national security.

Israel is not going anywhere soon but good thing is they afraid of us they want diplomatic ties, they offered us AAMs so we need to do something to increase jalan in neighbors.


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## *Awan*

Waffen SS said:


> To be brutally honest, I don't expect any help from my so and so brothers if I am in trouble. Therefore, these brothers can't seriously expect me to help them.


remember
1)don't rely on supports they make you weak.
2)upper hand is better than lower hand(hadith)
arabs are looking at us and we are looking at them?kia bakwass hai.



> I will always discriminate against palestinians in favor of my countrymen. I will not shy away from chosing my fellow countrymen over arabs.


no doubt.but what type of human being and muslim you are that can't feel pain for ur kind and brothers?
are your heart become stone or harder than stone,because even water can create hole in stones.


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## *Awan*

Rumporum said:


> Yeah right....and Hamas is an organisation of angels.. for your information these Kassam's are landing on our side till date ( last one 2 days ago luckily without any casualties) there has not been any response from our side.


you forget the slaughter of 1400 Palestinians.


> Israeli *atrocities? * what about Hamas atrocities on their own people and Israeli civilians?



thats why they win election with wast majority.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Nomi965 said:


> I don't understand what we can get by recognizing Israel
> 1)weapons
> what is the guarantee that indians don't have access to source codes
> 2)we become free from foreign debt
> who done more good to jews than Americans and brits.why jews can't clean their debts after all they own banks.
> 3)we can help Palestinian in batter way?
> in the way egyptions and turks(they are better all of us,but this zionist snake also not forgive them) are doing?
> 4)terror attacks in Pakistan will decrease/stopped?
> there is more better way to do this,arm hammas and play a bigger role in middle east(fry mubarik and do every thing so that akhwan ul muslemeen come in power)
> 5)they don't sell weapon to india?
> keep dreaming.
> 
> and you are military professional.i assume you also know their activities in Pakistan.i can't go in detail in this because this thing is very much sensitive.



#s 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 can all be corrected or at least addressed through strong and sound governance, leadership and diplomacy --which we are lacking at this time

Geographically, we are seperate.....they don't hold the key to our success or failure. But based on what I am reading here seems that some people just want to go out and seek to create more enemies than friends or 'associates' just for the sake of it --or perhaps due to mere hatred

Surely you have seen my hundreds of posts stating clearly that it would be stupid for us to recognize israel without a fair solution to Palestine issue; but that will take time (if it ever happens at all)....in the meantime, we should at least acknowledge that they are a party in the dispute and that we can't just wish them away!

I think limited contact and at least intel-sharing (obviously any possible information and mis-information would have to be sorted) would be useful. Nowhere am I suggesting that we blindly open our doors and embrace them; that would be silly, and it would send a bad message to our brothers/sisters in Palestine (though it is already done by Jordan, Egypt, Turkiye and to a large extent UAE and KSA)


By the way sir, what sensitive information do you have that I have no access to?

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## *Awan*

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> #s 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 can all be corrected or at least addressed through strong and sound governance, leadership and diplomacy --which we are lacking at this time


i was expecting something better in reply.people(generally saying) here advocate that we recognize israel because of above reasons.so i gave point view that this is not possible and our day dreaming.



> Geographically, we are seperate.....they don't hold the key to our success or failure. But based on what I am reading here seems that some people just want to go out and seek to create more enemies than friends or 'associates' just for the sake of it --or perhaps due to mere hatred


we have long list of enemies.if one more is added to that list than that don't make much difference.P
our hatered towards them is also based on facts and reasons(poisoning of prophet,abdullah bin saba,their role in destruction of caliphate,list is very long)
by the way sir i am not asking for creating enemies i just want that we should keep snakes at distance and should not give more head aches to isi.and although we are geographically separated but they use india as a base against us.and after teaming up with them damage our interests in arab world.


> Surely you have seen my hundreds of posts stating clearly that it would be stupid for us to recognize israel without a fair solution to Palestine issue; but that will take time (if it ever happens at all)....in the meantime, we should at least acknowledge that they are a party in the dispute and that we can't just wish them away!


i never question your intentions.if zionists are so serious about peace why should not they go back to pre 1967 positions.they do that in morning and we recognize them in evening.


> I think limited contact and at least intel-sharing (obviously any possible information and mis-information would have to be sorted) would be useful. Nowhere am I suggesting that we blindly open our doors and embrace them; that would be silly, and it would send a bad message to our brothers/sisters in Palestine (though it is already done by Jordan, Egypt, Turkiye and to a large extent UAE and KSA)


there is saying in urdu
kisi ka chera surkh dekh kar apne monh par tapar nahi marte.
when we see red face we don't slap our face(so that our face also become red).
what ever arabs are doing congratulations to them.but i m only saying there are more better ways.


> By the way sir, what sensitive information do you have that I have no access to?



i am not your sir.you are mine.you served Pakistan and i have to.
actually i remain unable to convey massage properly.
i want to say that you are military professional and you know more than me about their activities in Pakistan against Pakistan.
private massage options is disabled otherwise i send u pm.actually they teamed up with people of particular believe and are engaged in bio warfare in pak(this is only hint,and also this is not rumar).can't go in detail more than this openly.


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## Iqbal_Brar

PakiiZeeshan said:


> Exactly. Nobody in reality gives a damn for Muslim brotherhood or the so called Ummah.



I think you should stop blaming everything on others and remember that Pakistan was biggest supporter of America for past 60 years.. meanwhile India became first non-Arab country in whole world to recognize the PLO.. with first PLO foreign office opening in Delhi in 1975.. Pakistan was too much under America to make political moves like that.. and even economically India helps Palestine a lot.. and secondly.. this is the first aid convoy since Turkish ship which is leaving to help the trapped people of Palestine.. PressTV - Asian aid convoy set to leave for Gaza and it is leaving from India.. with Indians being again first ones to from asia to try to run blockade and help Palestinians.. so why not Pakistanis do this?? this is despite India having close ties with Israel.. which even Palestinian President said he has no problem with since India helps Palestine so much.. 

also Pakistan needs to understand that to be any use to "ummah" you have to be politically and economically strong on international level and pakistan is not.. America tells it what to do politically and economically it goes asking for money to arabs and when they say no than to IMF.. so Pakistan is more like burden to ummah than help.. that is why arabs openly support India.. because on international level they help each other out.. also it is reason why Arab Union is politically tighter group than OIC.. because all arab countries like to band together before others..


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## 500

Nomi965 said:


> Fundamental signs to recognize you people
> 1) liars
> 2)do things from whom you are forbidden.(worshiping of calf,fishing on sabat,killing innocent people)


Hamas are liars and kills innocent people.



> 12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and even though he may tarry, nonetheless, I wait every day for his coming.
> this messiah part.your believe and actions that you arer doing so that you shorten the time of his arrival.


So what messiah has to do with the issue?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Nomi -- to be the devil's advocate, they did militarily win those wars & PLO under Yasser Arafat did decline Camp David resolution

in hindsight, maybe Camp David should have been accepted....in 6 decades it was the closest thing to a peace deal if I ever saw one in my relatively short lifespan


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## PakiiZeeshan

Iqbal_Brar said:


> I think you should stop blaming everything on others and remember that Pakistan was biggest supporter of America for past 60 years.. meanwhile India became first non-Arab country in whole world to recognize the PLO.. with first PLO foreign office opening in Delhi in 1975.. Pakistan was too much under America to make political moves like that.. and even economically India helps Palestine a lot.. and secondly.. this is the first aid convoy since Turkish ship which is leaving to help the trapped people of Palestine.. PressTV - Asian aid convoy set to leave for Gaza and it is leaving from India.. with Indians being again first ones to from asia to try to run blockade and help Palestinians.. so why not Pakistanis do this?? this is despite India having close ties with Israel.. which even Palestinian President said he has no problem with since India helps Palestine so much..
> 
> also Pakistan needs to understand that to be any use to "ummah" you have to be politically and economically strong on international level and pakistan is not.. America tells it what to do politically and economically it goes asking for money to arabs and when they say no than to IMF.. so Pakistan is more like burden to ummah than help.. that is why arabs openly support India.. because on international level they help each other out.. also it is reason why Arab Union is politically tighter group than OIC.. because all arab countries like to band together before others..



I always blame the problems of Pakistan on the people of Pakistan. Not the government or non-Pakistanis. 

I especially hate it when Pakistanis show support for arabs though, (i'm not blaming arabs for the actions of some traitor Pakistanis, but i dis-like arabs in general) because they make us look prideless and desperate by showing all this support for arabs, even though arabs in general look down on non-arabs... they view themselves superior to non-arabs... they think they are better than us.

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## building7

PakiiZeeshan said:


> I always blame the problems of Pakistan on the people of Pakistan. Not the government or non-Pakistanis.
> 
> I especially hate it when Pakistanis show support for arabs though, (i'm not blaming arabs for the actions of some traitor Pakistanis, but i dis-like arabs in general) because they make us look prideless and desperate by showing all this support for arabs, even though arabs in general look down on non-arabs... they view themselves superior to non-arabs... they think they are better than us.



you make me sick you dirty indian you will never understand us s


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## PakiiZeeshan

What's wrong in what i said??

Ask any Pakistani staying in UAE and they'll tell you about how arabs view us.


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## Iqbal_Brar

PakiiZeeshan said:


> I always blame the problems of Pakistan on the people of Pakistan. Not the government or non-Pakistanis.
> 
> I especially hate it when Pakistanis show support for arabs though, (i'm not blaming arabs for the actions of some traitor Pakistanis, but i dis-like arabs in general) because they make us look prideless and desperate by showing all this support for arabs, even though arabs in general look down on non-arabs... they view themselves superior to non-arabs... they think they are better than us.



Yeaa I agree with you.. I have a lot of Pakistani friends they share your view.. well over and all they are more proud of being a seperate culture than Arab culture.. which is good thing.. look at Persians.. a very proud race.. they will never look up to arabs.. they make arabs look up to them.. lol..

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## Desert Fox

I 100&#37; agree with PakiiZeeshan, its about time we Pakistanis stop kissing the feets of these Arabs. Why should we make ourselves desperate to help these Arabs and their purely Arab cause while they shake hands with our enemies and treat us like animals? Just recently KSA had a joint military exercise with the indian army, now imagin what the reaction of these Arabs would be if Pakistan Army were to conduct a joint military exercise with Iran or israel. We Pakistanis have lost our national identity and our national pride for the sake of "Ummah" and "brotherhood" that doesn't even exist.

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## PakiiZeeshan

Thanks SilentNinja. I agree with you 100&#37; too.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

In my office building is the Saudi Cultural Mission section of their embassy --I have lunch with a Saudi every single day --a dear friend. He agrees that while the common man Pakistani in Gulf (labourers) are treated like rest of the other expat labourers, they do view and hold Pakistan in high esteem. They appreciate their hardwork and in many ways look up to Pakistan specifically --and not just because of Atom bomb.

whether its empty words or genuine ones, I think it's not good to generalize Arabs as ethno-centric. You have good apples and bad ones in any country.

While we are culturally distinct peoples with different attitude and different temperment; but we are still of similar faith....we read in the same script. Many of our words are the same. We pray side by side and do Hajj together --or at least we are all bound by this obligation once in our lifetime.


lets just be proud of who we are because we should be......as well we should celebrate our differences instead of saying who is good and who is bad --that is immature


the Arabs have supported us diplomatically in many instances ---except perhaps the now defunct U.A.R. of 1950s which was pro socialist and thusly pro hindustan. While they do have a trade relations with our enemy (and why shouldnt they?) i dont believe they would ever go against Pakistan or its interests --whether on Kashmir or on other issues. That is my feeling.

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> In my office building is the Saudi Cultural Mission section of their embassy --I have lunch with a Saudi every single day --a dear friend. He agrees that while the common man Pakistani in Gulf (labourers) are treated like rest of the other expat labourers, they do view and hold Pakistan in high esteem. They appreciate their hardwork and in many ways look up to Pakistan specifically --and not just because of Atom bomb.
> 
> whether its empty words or genuine ones, I think it's not good to generalize Arabs as ethno-centric. You have good apples and bad ones in any country.
> 
> While we are culturally distinct peoples with different attitude and different temperment; but we are still of similar faith....we read in the same script. Many of our words are the same. We pray side by side and do Hajj together --or at least we are all bound by this obligation once in our lifetime.
> 
> 
> lets just be proud of who we are because we should be......as well we should celebrate our differences instead of saying who is good and who is bad --that is immature
> 
> 
> the Arabs have supported us diplomatically in many instances ---except perhaps the now defunct U.A.R. of 1950s which was pro socialist and thusly pro hindustan. While they do have a trade relations with our enemy (and why shouldnt they?) i dont believe they would ever go against Pakistan or its interests --whether on Kashmir or on other issues. That is my feeling.



assalam alaikum

Agree with u, Pakistanies r most trusted among the expatriots even compared to the arabs in Saudia and what saudia have done to pakistan in terms of economic diplomatic support is is reflection of it. Our pakisani brothers forget gulf population of arab is only about 10&#37; or the arab. If there is a friction between an empoyer or an employee it is not bcoz of hate or looking down , it also happens in our country too.

Pakizeeshan
Why we goto arab countries it is due to economic conditions, corruptions etc. who is stopping u by not electing the right persons to the right places. I never saw a saudi when they r faced with problems they say where is our pakistani brothers unlike us eg during 1998 nuclear blasts, earthquake and floods recently we were crying for their help. They do buissiness with india we also have ties with india and do trade with them u stop trading with india. 

Arabs donot hate pakistanies ( in general ) i know it coz i lived all my life with arabs but there r always exceptions. 

Mohammad bin alqasim was an arabic from taif ( saudi arabia) never forget it.

TARIQ

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## Rumporum

Nomi965 said:


> you forget the slaughter of 1400 Palestinians.



BTW if you are referring to Cast Lead it was primarily to destroy Hamas and their weapons that were attacking Israeli civilians Period. 

The aim was not to attack civilians but to achieve a military objective that being to destroy/reduce Hamas military capability of firing Kassam rockets. Your Hamas angels were hiding there weapons in civilian buildings such as schools,Mosques and so on. 




Nomi965 said:


> thats why they win election with wast majority.



And that's why Hamas rules like the Taliban and kills its own people


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## PakiiZeeshan

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD,

I thought in Islam everybody is equal in front of God? So why you are giving arabs are a superior status?

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## mr_attitude

Israel ummm nice question but i must say zionists do not represent all jewish so we just hate zionist. we do not hate jewish

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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

PakiiZeeshan said:


> TARIQ BN ZIYAAD,
> 
> I thought in Islam everybody is equal in front of God? So why you are giving arabs are a superior status?



assalam alaikum

bhai kuch log apnay bhaiyon ki ghaltion ko ujagar ker tay hain , kuch log apnay bhaiyon ki acchaiyan. i m in the later category if u can tell me where did i make the arabs superior tell me ( may eik punjabi bhala kun unko super status doon ga other then giving the facts). 
In these troubles times that we r going thru it is not wise to loose our freinds and the same token we share the same faith.
And i m glad that u remember Allah now, same Allah have called all the muslims brothers and u started differentiating, As u stated above in ur posts that u preffer to help sindhies balochi etc instead of helping palestinians and u dont care about the palestinians while our prophet tells u if our brother feel the pain we also feel it, well Allah doesnot care about ur race or nationality , will reward u if u help ur brother in need if he is in mali, palestine or punjab.

Nice to hear from u brother, i dont believe any race is superior to other.

TARIQ

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Nomi -- to be the devil's advocate, they did militarily win those wars & PLO under Yasser Arafat did decline Camp David resolution
> 
> in hindsight, maybe Camp David should have been accepted....in 6 decades it was the closest thing to a peace deal if I ever saw one in my relatively short lifespan



I would disagree bro... The Israelis are militarily more powerful in this conflict... Peace generally relies on the more powerful party compared to the weaker one... If Israelis truly want peace, they can get that... The ongoing conflict is because of Israel...

As for the Palestinians... readers be in no doubt... All Palestinian groups are corrupt and do not have the welfare of their people at their heart... be it PLO or Hamas... the closest to have continued a proper resistance against Israel are the Hizbollah but they too have complex politics of their own... being an armed group they have to rely on a lot of players in the game to stay in their position... Some of these interest groups would surprise you if I told you their names 

As for the issue of Israel does not kill innocent civilians... I mean I m not going to post photos where children have been burnt to death by Israeli phosphorus bombs last year... we also have the case where Sharon provided light during the night for the fascist Fallang to butcher Palestinians (including many children, women and old men) in Shabra and Shatilla... To claim that Israel has some sort of morals when it comes to warfare is the most obnoxious thing to say...

Perhaps they think that the more they lie, the more people will believe them...

Nomi... You are right... The Jews do lie a lot... I have had personal experience of this when I was working in a place with a Jewish coworker...

I also disagree with the idea that we should not be proactive in the issue about Palestine... We need to stop our petty local and national focus and aim for more global ambitions... This would be more fitting with our Islamic ideology... All great powers only become great powers when they start thinking globally... you take an ideology and you start measuring things with it... whats good for a child in Pakistan is good for a child in Palestine... regardless of his/her religion...


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## TARIQ BN ZIYAAD

assalam alaikum

hizbullah is not a palestinian group brother

TARIQ


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> assalam alaikum
> 
> hizbullah is not a palestinian group brother
> 
> TARIQ



Yes... I should have said anti Israel groups...

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Bhim said:


> Man can you ever come out of the holy texts and start living a realistic life.



for you religion and life are 2 different things. Not for us. .

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## r4rehan

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> for you religion and life are 2 different things. Not for us. .



 not for me aswell

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

500 said:


> Of course there is a difference. Groups like Hamas deliberately kill civilians. They try to kil as much civilians as possible.



that means you dont kill civilians. Oh thats a breaking news to me.. . . .

You just dont target Hamas or other groups, you also target civilians. What about the atrocites you carry out in Palestine? Who gave you permissions for that??


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## 500

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> that means you dont kill civilians. Oh thats a breaking news to me.. . . .
> 
> You just dont target Hamas or other groups, you also target civilians. What about the atrocites you carry out in Palestine? Who gave you permissions for that??


We dont target civilians. On contrary, we spend huge affort to avoid civilian casualties. But its impossible to avoid completely in urban battles. 

For example in Chechnya Russia killed some 100 thousand civilans. Its not because Russia is evil and wanted to kill civilans, but because it led very heavy and complex fghts in urban areas. Similary Sri Lanka also killed some 10-20 thousand civilians in last year. Not because Sri Lanka government is evil, but because coward Tamil tigers terrorists used their civilians as human shields.

But Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians. They admit it openly.


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## PakiiZeeshan

TARIQ BN ZIYAAD said:


> assalam alaikum
> 
> bhai kuch log apnay bhaiyon ki ghaltion ko ujagar ker tay hain , kuch log apnay bhaiyon ki acchaiyan. i m in the later category if u can tell me where did i make the arabs superior tell me ( may eik punjabi bhala kun unko super status doon ga other then giving the facts).
> In these troubles times that we r going thru it is not wise to loose our freinds and the same token we share the same faith.
> And i m glad that u remember Allah now, same Allah have called all the muslims brothers and u started differentiating, As u stated above in ur posts that u preffer to help sindhies balochi etc instead of helping palestinians and u dont care about the palestinians while our prophet tells u if our brother feel the pain we also feel it, well Allah doesnot care about ur race or nationality , will reward u if u help ur brother in need if he is in mali, palestine or punjab.
> 
> Nice to hear from u brother, i dont believe any race is superior to other.
> 
> TARIQ



Well brother, that's your own problem. 

Don't try to force your opinion onto others

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Rumporum said:


> There was *no state of Palestine*.... also we did not start the wars in 1948 nor the one in 1967 get your historic facts straight.
> 
> As for the 2006 Levanon war is concerned it was Nasrallah who started that and paid the consequences which he himself admitted that he miscalculated Israeli response and had he known that he wouldn't have started it



Palestine was a state and InshAllah will remain a state. But if you dont accept them as a state, that does not give you the right to kill innocent. Just compare the no. of civilians you kill and the no. of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas.


since 29 September, 2000
no. of Palesteni civilians killed - - - about 7,000
no. of Israeli civilians killed - - - about 1,084

that is about 6 times more

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

500 said:


> We dont target civilians. On contrary, *we spend huge affort to avoid civilian casualties*. But its impossible to avoid completely in urban battles.



WRONG ! about 85% of civilians in Palestine died because of Israeli road closures


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## PakiiZeeshan

Pakistanis are always talking about palestine, but why we never talk about the drones in Waziristan?

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## Ababeel

*Ask these Zionist where was Israel before 1948 who tells there was no state of Palestine.*

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## 500

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> WRONG ! about 85% of civilians in Palestine died because of Israeli road closures


Thats not true. As I said several times infant mortality levels of Palestinians are one of the lowest in Arab and Muslim world.

Here data from the United Nations World Population Prospects report, for 2005-2010:

Infant mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births)

Under-five mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births) 

85 Palestinian territories 17.5 - 20.2 
86 Libya 18.0 - 19.7 
89 Saudi Arabia 18.8 - 21.8 
92 Jordan 19.4 - 21.8 
95 Tunisia 19.8 - 22.2 
100 Lebanon 22.0 - 25.9 
109 Indonesia 26.6 - 31.8 
110 Turkey 27.5 - 31.6 
115 Egypt 29.3 - 33.8 
118 Morocco 30.6 - 36.3 
119 Iran 30.6 - 35.5 
120 Algeria 31.1 - 33.2 
138 Bangladesh 52.5 - 69.3 
148 Yemen 58.6 - 78.8 
155 Sudan 64.9 - 104.5 
160 Pakistan 67.5 - 95.2 
169 Iraq 81.5 - 105.4 

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/wpp2006/WPP2006_Highlights_rev.pdf

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## Rumporum

Ababeel said:


> *Ask these Zionist where was Israel before 1948 who tells there was no state of Palestine.*



There was no sate of Palestine till date...check your history books


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

There was most certainly a province of Palestine... Palestine has existed for thousands of years... What you guys call Israel is just a temporary state that exists solely due to the help you get from the west... Once that help is gone... Watch what happens to you!!!


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## 500

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> There was most certainly a province of Palestine... Palestine has existed for thousands of years... What you guys call Israel is just a temporary state that exists solely due to the help you get from the west... Once that help is gone... Watch what happens to you!!!


Before 1967 Israel recieved very little aid. Today US aid to Israel is less than 1.5% of our GNP, all of it military.


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## r4rehan

it not only talk about Palestine but our 3rd Big MASJID there in occupied by Zionist 

plz conversation about it ???? don't forget that thxxxxx

 zindabad

<(_|_)| HU AKBAR

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

500 said:


> Before 1967 Israel recieved very little aid. Today US aid to Israel is less than 1.5% of our GNP, all of it military.



What are you a muppet? Israel is built on the poor tax payers money from America...

Even before 1967 u had plenty of support from the French and the British... You could not dream to setup your state had it not been the guarantees from the Brits... That support for the existence of your illegitimate state continues from these enemies of Muslims to this day...

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## 500

r4rehan said:


> it not only talk about Palestine but our 3rd Big MASJID there in occupied by Zionist
> 
> plz conversation about it ???? don't forget that thxxxxx
> 
> zindabad
> 
> <(_|_)| HU AKBAR


Mosque is under control of Islamic waqf. Israel has no control of it.



Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> What are you a muppet? Israel is built on the poor tax payers money from America...


I repeat: today US aid is less than 1.5&#37; of Israel's GNP. And before 1967, when Israel was actually bult, there was virtually no help at all.



> Even before 1967 u had plenty of support from the French and the British... You could not dream to setup your state had it not been the guarantees from the Brits... That support for the existence of your illegitimate state continues from these enemies of Muslims to this day...


Brits and Frenchs only sold weapons. In 1948 Brits actually helped the Arabs.

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## r4rehan

500 said:


> Mosque is under control of Islamic waqf. Israel has no control of it..



so why they are not allowing to pray there ???? ????? ???????

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## 500

r4rehan said:


> so why they are not allowing to pray there ???? ????? ???????


You can pray there. I can't.


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## PakiiZeeshan

SilentNinja,

Well said bro!!


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## sergente rehan

Well people the question here is not if arabs are our enemise or not, who is evil who is good. The question is about Israel and Pakistan.

I will always support the Palestinian cause bcz in all this game they are the real victims. Hamas is all drama they are funded by Mossad just to keep fighting and creating excuses to occupy more palestinian lands and to hold on illegaly occupied territories by israel. If Hamas do a peace treaty with jew state then how will these zionist collect all those funds from the jewish lobby from all over the world? who always pay heavy amounts to the state of Israel in the name of self defence! It's all a big game. Sooner we get out of these zionist dirty games soon we will have peace in this region. The moment when Palestine will become a free sovreign state most of the problems will be solved with israel. Remeber Qaid said that we will never accept a state which is created by supressing the rights of another nation. Personally Pakistan dosen't have much agaisnt Israel but it's this zionist state which always acts against Pakistan.

Regarding the arabs they are not perfect sometime they act worse then the non-muslims towards their own muslim brothers but you can't blame them for every wrong thing going on...in part it's our own fault too. All the muslim nations are our brothers and friends so no need to fight against them. These arab countries had always helped Pakistan in the time of need so just stop bashing at them. Personally i think we should form a strong Muslim world union in order to safe guard our interests. We are too divided in these moments.


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## *Awan*

500 said:


> Hamas are liars and kills innocent people.
> 
> 
> *So what messiah has to do with the issue*?



Actually no one can understand zionism without understanding this part.why you people are shy?why you people don't tell us about his abilities,how he rule earth,sign of his appearance,about third temple,when you people become pure enough that you are allowed to enter in temple.
I know all these things.but problem is i want to hear from your mouth.if we educate world about these things we are labeled as religious bigots,extremists,fundamentalists.world will be very happy by hearing these things from democracy ,modern and chosen people.P

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## *Awan*

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Nomi -- to be the devil's advocate, they did militarily win those wars & PLO under Yasser Arafat did decline Camp David resolution
> 
> in hindsight, maybe Camp David should have been accepted....in 6 decades it was the closest thing to a peace deal if I ever saw one in my relatively short lifespan



sir what is happened is happened.what next?we also miss two chances of getting kashmir.48 and 62.we Chinese ambassador come to Ayub while he was sleeping.(see more detail in shahab nama).
the option for peace is Israel go back to pre 1967 postion.


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## *Awan*

Rumporum said:


> BTW if you are referring to Cast Lead it was primarily to destroy Hamas and their weapons that were attacking *Israeli civilians* Period.


you people occupy their land,demolish their homes and in return you expect that they through flowers at you?


> The aim was not to attack civilians but to achieve a military objective that being to destroy/reduce Hamas military capability of firing Kassam rockets. Your Hamas angels were hiding there weapons in civilian buildings such as *schools,Mosques* and so on.



why you forget UNO building?where only children are taking shelter.among those 1400 men,women children how many are hamas men.how does use of phosphorous is justified?




> And that's why Hamas rules like the Taliban and kills its own people


why you kill Ahmed Yasin and Rantessi at first place.


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## *Awan*

@ 500 and ruporum
if you people are so serious about peace why you don't move back to pre 1967 position.don't morn like a slut for peace because you are the people who hold the key for peace.

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

SilentNinja said:


> @ Tariq Bin Ziyad
> 
> People like you have brought Pakistan in its present state. Arabs are not our brothers, they never will be, they are our enemies!!! I don't care if they helped us during the floods because it won't compensate for all the damage their sick extremist ideology has done to our country.



Sir jee stay cool. I agree to whatever you are saying but I want you to keep in mind that we are on the same platform.



SilentNinja said:


> The sick disease called Al-Qaeda that originated from saudi arabia has destroyed our country while these arabs sit on their gold thrones in their countries and strap little bengali, indian, and Pakistani children on camels and watch the little children cry until they get trampled and crushed by the camels.



Al-Qaeda originated from Saudi Arabia but they worked under the umbrella of ISI and Pakistan like rest of the world supported them to get rid of Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. These Al-Qaeda terrorists were Jihadis for us.



SilentNinja said:


> These people are our enemies!!!!!!, they shake hands with our enemies! They treat us like a pile of SH*T, they look down on us! These arrogant animals don't deserve to be called humans, they are not humans!



So do our rulers and politicians.



SilentNinja said:


> These arabs have destroyed the image of Islam, because of them today there are suicide bombings in our country, due to them the middle east is riddled with conflicts and bloodshed!!!! *These are the same pigs that supported the british zionists against the Ottoman Turks*, these arabs created israel and now they get what they deserve!!!!



They did support zionists alright, but what about our leaders? The people our leaders meet are all Newcon zionists. . .



SilentNinja said:


> Why should we protest when israel slaughters these animals? why should we give a rats sh*t when they get massacred by their own zionist creation? When hundreds and thousands of innocent Kashmiris get killed by indians these arabs don't say a single word against india, they don't protest at all while on the other hand we Pakistanis burn the israeli flag and curse israel for the sake of these animals who could give a sh*t for what happens to us!!!!



We do hate Israel and and we are strictly against the atrocites that Israel carries out in Palestine and India does in Kashmir but you tell me: What have we got after burning Israel's flag? Did they stop all those wrong doings? And if arabs dont burn Israel's flag that does not mean they support Israel. . 

This is what we did when a person in Germany made a picture of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)








*On the other hand Saudi Arabia stopped the import of Danish products.*

Which one of the above actions do you think effected Germany the most?



SilentNinja said:


> And if you consider these hypocrite arab animals "good Muslims" then my friend your in for a big surprise!!! Each and everyone of these big bellied camel faced sheikhs has committed zina with a eastern european prostitute, these big bellied sheikhs are involved in human trafficking and sex slavery! These big bellied sheikhs hate Iran and Persians/Shia's but at the bottom of their heart these hypocrites would do anything to get their hands on a Iranian concubine for their "Harems"!
> The princesses of the royal family go to europe to party and commit zina, while their princes are busy smuggling in little girls from eastern europe and then these same arabs call us Pakistanis and non-Arabs "half Muslims"? They think they own us because the last prophet (pbuh) was an arab and therefor they are superior to us????



AGREED ! NO COMMENT!



SilentNinja said:


> Look it up for yourself how the saudi princess roams without *wearing the Niqab or for that matter even the Hijab*! And then these arabs tell us to cover our women, these arabs will consider any women that doesn't cover herself a "sl*t", "whore", and "prostitute" while their own *daughters get impregnated by european men*!



I hate to say but unfortunately we are in the same situation !

*CONCLUSION:*

Whatever you mentioned is 100% correct but we are in the same situation. They deal with zionists (knowingly or unknowingly) to save their throne but if it saves our Holy places then for now let it be. *But we are in the same situation.* And does not give us the right to criticize *THE ARABS*. You could have mentioned just Saudi kings. . .

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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

500 said:


> You can pray there. I can't.



oooh. . . . So you want to tell us that these Israeli police officers came to Masjid-e-Aqsa to pray 







and after this you yourself can search pics of Israelis who are digging near Masjid-e-Aqsa and damaging it. .

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sanabil alqaeda was never under ISIs control instead of makin up facts read abt it.

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## alumrock

rajeev said:


> The one thing I can't understand why Pakistanis use emotions when they deal with other countries. It is not a personal relationship, it is not your friend, your neighbor or your relative - it just another country.
> 
> Pakistan should seek to be friendly with Israel as it can offer good military hardware at far cheaper prices than US/West. And besides what is the use of having enmity with Israel? It is not like you are going to attack Israel or Israel going to attack Pakistan!





LOL

MY FRIEND OU HAVENT GOT A CLUE ABOUT ISRAEL HAVE YOU 

Israel 
The Kingdom of Lies

By Jeremy Salt - Ankara 

May 01, 2009 "Palestine Chronicle" -- - Racism is common to most and probably all societies. Laws never seem entirely to eliminate it. It was the essential tool in the creation of modern settler states. The United States could not have come into existence without the obliteration of North American Indian cultures and of large numbers of the people themselves. They had to die so the US could be born. In Australia the indigenous people of Tasmania were wiped out to the last man, woman and child, while on the mainland the tribes were massacred, confined, stripped of their ancestral land and eventually turned into fringe dwellers. Until recently Australia had a prime minister who could deny that aboriginal children of mixed blood were taken from their parents up to the 1930s and refused to issue any expression of remorse for their mistreatment. More recent targets of racism have been Lebanese and Vietnamese immigrants, while the Howard federal governments racist treatment of Iraqi and Afghan refugees and asylum seekers remains one of the most shameful chapters of Australias history. 

In the US the election of a colored president would have been inconceivable until very recently. It was so unbelievable that people wept when Barack Obama won the elections. 

Racism comes in many shades. Discrimination against people on the grounds of skin color, ethnicity or religion is a basic human rights issue, a first cousin to discrimination, harassment and denial of opportunity on the basis of gender. President Mahmud Ahmedinejad, in his recent speech at the Durban Review Conference in Geneva, drew attention to Israel as a racist state but Iran has serious issues of its own to deal with. Homosexuality in Iran is treated as a crime. Gays and prostitutes are executed in public. The Bahais have been the victims of discrimination and persecution throughout Irans modern history and this remains the case today. They have no legal identity in Iran. On all of these issues, Iran is itself vulnerable to criticism on the grounds of human rights, which does not, of course, detract in any way from his criticism of Israel. The outrage directed against Ahmedinajad obscured the real issue at the heart of what he was saying: is Israel a racist state? 

In settler societies such as the United States, Australia and Canada, the crude racism which drove invasion and colonization mostly belongs to the past, when there was an active concept of race, allied with the categories of civilization, barbarism and savagery. The North American Indian was regarded by the white settlers as a savage, perhaps noble, mean or cunning, but a savage redskin nevertheless. In Australia the indigenous people were scarcely counted as human beings. It was not until the 1960s that they were even given the vote. The same relegation of Negroes to a contingent category of humanity (at best) justified slavery and segregation in the southern states of the United States. The dehumanization of all of these groups was essential to the colonizing process (including the colonization of Algeria after the French invasion of 1830) and the enrichment of white settlers. 

All modern western colonial settler states share the same characteristics, i.e. the obliteration of indigenous cultures and the displacement of people from their land. This was true of the North American settlers, the Australian colonists and the Boers who eliminated the Herero people of southwest Africa in the early 20th century. Treaties in which the indigenous people were compelled to consent to the invasion and settlement of their land were signed in North America and New Zealand but not in Australia, where the colonists regarded the indigenous people as less than human and could therefore assert that the land was empty. There are numerous parallels here with Zionism not only on the basis of an empty land being settled or of civilization being brought to a primitive people but in the double nature of the colonialism. In North America and Palestine, settlement was fostered by a distant government against which the settlers eventually rebelled before declaring their independence.

Gradually, mostly only in the last half century, laws and attitudes changed. This rolling process met with resistance at every stage from those who justified discrimination on the basis of the Bible or racist genetic theories. Not until the 1960s and 1970s were racially discriminatory laws eliminated from the statute books in modern settler states such as the US and Australia, which does not mean that structural racism has been eliminated. It has not. It can be measured in education, health and welfare statistics, while episodes of racism involving police and the public at large show that attitudes are harder to change than laws. 

The difference between Israel and these other settler states is partly one of timing. Israel was founded not at the beginning or the middle of the historical cycle of the settler state phenomenon but right at the end. Israel is a paradox  a settler state arising at the beginning of the post-colonial era. Across Africa, southeast Asia, Latin America and the Middle East, national liberation movements challenged powers unwilling to voluntarily relinquish the territories they had seized in the 19th century. The right of native people to self-determination was expressed in the UN Charter. It was at this precise moment that Israel was established. At a time when universal values were being emphasized Israel headed in the opposite direction.

The Holocaust generated enormous emotional support across the western world for the establishment of Israel. It might not have been the pretext for its creation of Israel, as Mahmud Ahmedinejad is reported to have said in Geneva, but it was certainly exploited by the Zionists to make sure that Israel came into existence. Refugees from Europe might have gone elsewhere, but for ideological reasons the only place the Zionist movement wanted them to go was Palestine. The media joined the chorus calling for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine as a solution to the refugee problem and an antidote to anti-semitism. In fact removing the victims from the scene of the crime was no answer to the historical problem of European anti-semitism. Their solution allowed European governments to evade responsibility for the consequences of actions in which all of them were in some way complicit. A people who were in no way responsible for the massive crimes which had been committed against Jews were being made to pay for them. Their rights and interests were treated with as much indifference or disdain as anti-semites had traditionally treated the rights and interests of Jews. The export of the Jewish problem to Palestine was in its own way anti-semitic.

Within the British government there were objections but only for financial reasons. Britain was broke and could not afford the extra cost of policing Palestine were 100,000 Jewish refugees from Europe to be admitted as the Zionists and President Truman were demanding in 1946. Even within the US administrations there were reservations. How, for example, could the principle of self-determination be reconciled with the denial of the right of the majority of the people of Palestine to decide their own future? Would not a socialist Jewish state in Palestine further the ambitions of the USSR in the Middle East? And what of Americas interests and its relations with the Arab world? They could only be seriously damaged by support for this project. 

Ultimately it was Truman and not the UN who decided that Israel would be created in Palestine. Without his direct intervention the partition vote would never have got across the finishing line at the UN General Assembly. It still has to remembered that the vote was only a recommendation, anyway, swept aside when Ben-Gurion, ignoring the provisions of the partition plan, made a unilateral declaration of independence in the name of the state of Israel six months after the plan was passed. In essence it was no different from the declaration of UDI made in the 1960s by the Rhodesian Prime Minister, Ian Smith. In the name of independence, both Smith and David Ben-Gurion declared war on the right of an indigenous people to determine their own future on their own land. One got away with it and one did not. 

What kind of state Israel would become was predetermined. In Israel today there are individuals and organizations fighting for coexistence with the Palestinians but since the beginning of Zionist settlement such voices have always spoken from the margins. From Herzls time onward it was understand within the mainstream that the Palestinians would never give up their land voluntarily and somehow would have to be removed from it. Thus Israel deliberately set itself from the beginning not just against the Palestinians but against the entire population of the Middle East, for whom Palestine (with Jerusalem at its heart) was an inalienable part of the Arab-Islamic heritage. Zionist justification rested on the argument that the Jewish people were the true indigenous people of Palestine and that Muslims and Christians were present only as caretakers whose role in history had now come to an end. The secondary moral position was that the suffering of Jews throughout history added up to a stronger claim than the rights of the Palestinians, a line of reasoning supported by Arthur James Balfour in 1917. The end justified the means. If it took the deprivation of Palestinian rights for a Jewish state to come into existence, so be it.

In a land in which the vast bulk of the population was not Jewish, a Jewish state could only be constructed by taking one inherently racist measure after another. If the state were to be Jewish so would land ownership and labor. The conditions written into the charter of the Jewish National Fund and other land-purchasing organizations stipulated that land once acquired could never be retained to non-Jewish hands. This extra-territorialisation of land as it was described by a British commission of inquiry sent to Palestine fuelled the Palestinian rebellion of 1936-39. Exclusive Jewish access to the land was followed through after 1948 by the destruction of approximately 500 villages and the passage of absent property and present absentee laws which prevented even Palestinians remaining inside Israel from returning to the property they owned.

Security laws were another means of separating the Palestinians from their land. Consolidation of the Jewish presence on the land has continued through the attempt to erase the Palestinian presence in Jaffa and other cities inside the green line.

On the other side of the green line the tactics are cruder and more obvious. Open demographic war is being waged against the Palestinians in East Jerusalem while in Hebron the centre of the city has been closed down and residents around the market moved out in the name of security, i.e. the protection of racist and fanatical Jewish settlers living in the heights above. Across the occupied West Bank it is the armed interlopers who describe the Palestinians as interlopers and infiltrators of their own occupied land. All of their vandalism, bullying, harassment of men, women and children, destruction of property and uprooting of olive trees and occasional killing is underwritten by the state, and yet the state is outraged when the charge of racism is raised in Geneva. The colonization of the territories is not incidental or accidental racism but the carefully thought out strategic and ideological racism of a racist state. The fact that it continues every single day is testimony to Israels contempt for universal values and international law. 

Just as the land would have to be the exclusive possession of the Jewish people (as 93 per cent of it is now legally classified), so it could only be worked by Jewish labor. Jewish employers were explicitly prohibited from hiring Arab workers in the 1920s and 1930s. Until the 1960s the central Israeli labor organization, the Histadrut, would only admit Jewish members. In practice, labor discrimination has never worked perfectly because of the low cost of Arab labor compared to Jewish labor and because of the Palestinian need to work, a situation which has led to Palestinian laborers building the settlements being constructed on their own occupied land. When the Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir visited Gaza in the 1970s she expressed shock, not at the establishment of Jewish settlements on expropriated land, but at the use of Arab labor to work the land for the settlers. 

As Israel was the state for Jews wherever they lived and not for all the people who lived within its borders (so to speak, seeing that Israel has never actually declared its borders), the laws would have to be framed accordingly. The Nationality Law automatically conferred Israeli citizenship only on Jews (i.e born of a Jewish mother). The Law of Return granted the right of return to Jews who had never lived in Palestine while denying the right of return to Palestinians who had lived there for generations. Some families could trace their origins in Palestine back to the Islamic conquest of the 7th century. 

The structural discrimination against the Palestinians can be measured in socio-economic statistics dealing with poverty, unemployment, access to government services and education, house construction and funding for municipalities. Taking their cue from the government, and the openly racist statements made by senior political, military and religious figures, describing the Palestinians as two legged animals, drugged cockroaches, insects, snakes and a cancer, large numbers of Israelis polled have said they do not want to live in the same apartment blocks as Arabs and in fact would like to see them out of the state altogether. The racism coming out of the mouths of rabbis and religious seminaries, couched in terms of an exclusive Jewish right to Eretz Israel, with many of the students or graduates of these seminaries living in the most aggressive of the West Bank settlements, is amongst the worst. 

Having set out on this path Israel has followed it unswervingly. One flagrant violation of human rights must be followed by another. Without war and without racism in spirit, deed and law there can be no Zionism and no Jewish state. The Palestinians have been pursued wherever they have gone because by their presence they constitute an existential threat to Israel. Over the years the attitudes of the Israeli mainstream towards the Palestinian enemy have grown even harsher. Palestinian armed struggle, suicide bombings and the rocketing of settlements near Gaza are not connected with the policies pursued by Israel against the Palestinians for six decades but with some ex nihilio desire to kill Jews and destroy Israel. This state of mind is deliberately cultivated from the top with the aim of keeping Israels Jewish citizens in a state of permanent readiness for the next war. The recent war in Gaza was approved by more than 80 per cent of Israels Jewish population. The misrepresentation of a massive military onslaught on a largely defenseless civilian population as a war allowed the civilian mainstream to justify the crimes that were being committed. Israelis looked on with indifference and even with approval as our boys killed hundreds of people in three weeks, most of them civilians and 400 of them children. The media turned into a kingdom of lies. Every specious argument of the political and military establishment was accepted without question and transformed into truth.

The racist t-shirts printed by Israeli soldiers engaged in the attack on Gaza were only the surface manifestation of a much deeper psychosis. The t-shirts captured the attention of the outside world in a way that slow, structural, incremental racism never does. Literally every day brings some new or continuing manifestation of Israeli state racism to the surface. After 50 years the beduin are still being driven off their traditional land in the Naqab. Palestinians married to Israelis are prevented from living inside Israel with their spouses and families. The recently declared Jerusalem Regional Master Plan is inherently racist but apparently too complex for the outside media to work out its implications. It embodies the next stage of programmed discrimination that has continued without letup since 1967. The Jerusalem municipality is itself an illegal and racist body whose master plan is a template for the further Judaisation of Jerusalem whatever the cost to the Palestinians. It must be remembered that until 1948 Palestinian Muslims and Christians owned about 70 per cent of the property in West Jerusalem and all but one or two per cent of the property in the east. They did not forfeit their rights to their houses and land. Their rights have simply been usurped. In normal legal parlance the appropriation of their property is known as theft. For the first time since the Crusaders massacred Jews and Muslims in the 11th century Jerusalem is being transformed into a city for a people of only one religious denomination. Under Arab and Ottoman rule Jerusalem remained a polyglot city. What the Jerusalem municipality and the state of Israel both want is a city cleansed of its non-Jewish population except for tourists and a colorful ethnic remnant hanging around the old city. 

Is all of this racist? Of course it is. In fact, those who care to study the UNs Convention on Genocide, passed in 1948 as Zionist militias were still driving Palestinians off their land and destroying their villages, will see that Israels behavior meets some of the criteria of article 2 of the convention which describes genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or part a national, ethnical, racial or religious group:

(a) killing members of the group
(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Israelis involved in the struggle against racism and occupation are fighting an uphill battle. The structural discrimination of the state against its non-Jewish citizens and against the Palestinians living in the occupied territories (as well as the Syrians living on the occupied Golan Heights) is a motor driving Israel and its people from one extreme to another. Thirty years ago it was regarded as unthinkable that Menahim Begin could ever be Israels Prime Minister but Begin was followed by Yitzhak Shamir, Benyamin Netanyahu and Ehud Olmert. All of them come out of the same school of Revisionist Zionism. Now revisionism is the mainstream, the labor movement is marginalized and Israel has again elected Netanyahu as its Prime Minister. He in turn has chosen as Foreign Minister the crude, arrogant, provocative and openly racist West Bank settler Avigdor Liebermann.

Racism in Israel is not like racism in other states, which is usually a matter of changing laws and slowly working on public opinion. In Israel racism is so deeply embedded in Zionist ideology and the structure of the state that without racism Israel cannot remain the state that it has become. Yet there are no signs that the Israeli people or the politicians they are electing as their leaders have any intention of changing direction. When they have a powerful military and when they are under no pressure from the outside world they see no reason to change. In its blockade of Gaza Israel has been supported from the beginning by the US, the EU and the Quartet. None of these venerable authorities could see any reason for Israel to be punished or restrained even after the killing of 1400 Palestinians in Gaza from late December 2008 to mid-January 2009. Their indulgence encourages a dangerous state of mind. The politicians, the generals, the rabbis, the media commentators and the academics know that they are in the right and that everyone else is in the wrong. The outrage at criticism, the arrogance, the self-righteousness, the self-justification, the endless claims of moral superiority and the contempt and hatred of the Palestinians are extremely disturbing. Israel is not a small, weak state in the middle of nowhere. It is a powerful state, armed with nuclear weapons, in the middle of the Middle East. The refusal of the international community to restrain states which live outside the law has led to many disasters in the past. The species of animal life known as homo sapiens has a poor record when it comes to averting calamities ahead of time. In the Middle East the creation of Israel brought disaster down on the heads of the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries. The states which created Israel have not yet taken responsibility for the consequences of their actions, but have rather made themselves more complicit in the crimes still being committed. As long as the disaster is someone elses (and not Israels) they do not seem to be concerned. How else can this be understood but as their own racism? Do they have to be pushed to the point where they are directly and unavoidably involved in Israels confrontation with the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab world to realize the consequences of what they have done these past six decades? 

- Jeremy Salt is associate professor in Middle Eastern History and Politics at Bilkent University in Ankara, Turkey. Previously, he taught at Bosporus University in Istanbul and the University of Melbourne in the Departments of Middle Eastern Studies and Political Science. Professor Salt has written many articles on Middle East issues, particularly Palestine, and was a journalist for The Age newspaper when he lived in Melbourne.

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## alumrock

Nomi965 said:


> you people occupy their land,demolish their homes and in return you expect that they through flowers at you?
> 
> 
> why you forget UNO building?where only children are taking shelter.among those 1400 men,women children how many are hamas men.how does use of phosphorous is justified?
> 
> 
> 
> why you kill Ahmed Yasin and Rantessi at first place.



An Israeli human rights group has said more than half of the Palestinians killed in the 22-day Israeli offensive on Gaza were civilians.
The new figures contradict an Israeli military claim that most of the dead were members of armed resistance groups.
But the report issued by the B'Tselem organisation on Wednesday was broadly in line with those reports published by groups such as Amnesty International and the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights after the war on Gaza ended in January.
B'Tselem found that 1,387 Palestinians were killed in the war, inlcuding 773 civilians, 330 combatants, 248 policemen and 36 people whom the group was unable to classify as combatants or non-combatants.
B'Tselem said there were 320 minors under the age of 18 among the civilian dead.
The Israeli military has said 1,166 Palestinians were killed during the offensive it dubbed Operation Cast Lead - 709 combatants, 295 civilians and 162 people whose status it was unable to clarify.

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## 500

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> oooh. . . . So you want to tell us that these Israeli police officers came to Masjid-e-Aqsa to pray


Israeli police come there only when they throw stones down. For example last monthes its calm there so there is no Israeli police.

If you have passport of country that has diplomatic relationships with Israel (Europe, Americas, Australia, India, China, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan..) you can come here and pray in Al Aqsa. No problem.

I cant pray however.



Nomi965 said:


> @ 500 and ruporum
> if you people are so serious about peace why you don't move back to pre 1967 position.don't morn like a slut for peace because you are the people who hold the key for peace.


1) If we move in pre 1967 positions then what we wil have to negotiate then about?
2) Why pre 1967 Arabs did not sign peace then?
3) Why Palestinian state was not created pre 1967?
4) We actually tried that in Gaza: Israel retreated to 1967 borders and we got massive rocket shelling in return. West Bank is just 10 km from Tel Aviv and 0 km from Jerusalem. So rockets will fall on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
5) Israel offered to Palestinians state in 1967 borders with minor changes. They rejected and launched terror campaign against Israel. Israel defeted that campaign and now they whine about cruel Israel.


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## Rumporum

Nomi965 said:


> @ 500 and ruporum
> if you people are so serious about peace why you don't move back to pre 1967 position.don't morn like a slut for peace because you are the people who hold the key for peace.



We are NOT moving anywhere they started the war and this is what they get. Are you the slut for the Arabs as they don't give a toss about you guys anyways..


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> sanabil alqaeda was never under ISIs control instead of makin up facts read abt it.



sorry sir. My mistake about Al- Qaeda. . . 
But I have my own views.
First of all I think it was a wrong thread to discuss wrong doings of Saudi Kings.
Secondly I think that instead of pointing fingers at others we should pay attention at eliminating on our own problems. . .


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

500 said:


> Israeli police come there only when they throw stones down. For example last monthes its calm there so there is no Israeli police.



were the Muslims throwing stones when Israeli police force entered the mosque when the prayers were going on there. . .

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## Kambojaric

Rumporum said:


> We are NOT moving anywhere they started the war and this is what they get. Are you the slut for the Arabs as they don't give a toss about you guys anyways..



"Teacher Teacher he hit me!!!!"

"No he hit me first" 

"Not true, you hit me first" ...

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## 500

SANABIL MIRZA said:


> were the Muslims throwing stones when Israeli police force entered the mosque when the prayers were going on there. . .


Al Aqsa is located on Temple Mount, during riots Palestinian throw stones down, where Jews pray.

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## ARSENAL6

Rumporum said:


> We are NOT moving anywhere they started the war and this is what they get. Are you the slut for the Arabs as they don't give a toss about you guys anyways..


SO IS ISRAEL GONNA SUPPORT PAKISTAN WHEN INDIA ATTACK BECAUSE ARABS DON&#8217;T GIVE A TOSS ABOUT PAKISTAN. IN CONTRARY YOU SUPPORT INDIA MILTARY : Israel's military supplies to India - upiasia.com
I DON&#8217;T SEE PAKISTAN HELPING THE PALISTIANS IN THAT MANNER!
And talking about slut:
DO YOU TAKE THE WORLD AS A SLUT AS YOU SELL YOUR VICTOMHOOD STORIES 
&#8220;oh Palistains a killing us &#8220;
&#8220;oh Hamas is killing us &#8220;
&#8220;Hebollah is killing us &#8220;

You got the Arrow system, Upgraded f-16 and F-15s , the f22 rapture, nuclear missiles, IDF solders train to the teeth, have the Uzi machine gun, have the most feared intelligence agentacy Moss ad and are voted as the best Army in the world against what &#8211; throwing stone Arabs kids ?





500 said:


> Al Aqsa is located on Temple Mount, during riots Palestinian throw stones down, where Jews pray.



Here we go again seriously though what is the point going on and on and on. DO you really think 500 that we are going to believe your propaganda and lies ?

You think the Web has it all and the media, so you end up pumping ridicoulous notion of "what we do is right" ? Its not going to work . More and more people seeing through the disgusting lies and propaganda that you robotically put and now getting the picture for what you truly are.

And to proof mr 500s lies :

THIS IS AL AQSA MOSQUE :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Al-aqsa-mosque01_cropped.JPG

THIS IS Dome of the Rock on *TEMPLE MOUNT*
File:Temple Mount.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Al-Aqsa Mosque is an Islamic holy place in the Old City of Jerusalem. The site that includes the mosque (along with the Dome of the Rock) is also referred to as al-Haram ash-Sharif or "Sacred Noble Sanctuary", a site also known as the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism, the place where the First and Second Temples are generally accepted to have stood.[1][2] Widely considered as a sacred site in Islam, Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was transported from the Sacred Mosque in Mecca to al-Aqsa during the Night Journey.[3] Islamic tradition holds that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) led prayers towards this site until the seventeenth month after the emigration, when God ordered him to turn towards the Ka'aba.[4]
According to Islamic belief, Jacob, son of Isaac, was the first to build the Mosque as a House of God. The Kaaba in Mecca was the first House of Worship to God, and the Masjid Al-Aqsa (Bayt Al-Maqdis) was the second. Originally built by Jacob and greatly expanded and renovated by King Solomon, the Mosque was destroyed twice.

Several excavations at the Temple Mount have taken place. The British Royal Engineers began excavation in the 1870s.[1] Since 1967, Israeli digs and maintenance work in the vicinity of the Mount have sparked demonstrations and criticism in the Muslim world while Israel and Jewish groups have highlighted the deliberate and unsupervised removal of significant amounts of earth containing archaeological artifacts from the site. The Dome of the rock is *purposely* named by * Jewish hating, Zionist Islamaphobes* as ALqsa mosque, is to show the world that the Mosque is not being destroyed by archaeological digs when in fact the real mosque (AL-aqsa mosque, Solomon temple) is. The picture they are showing is really the DOME of the ROCK AL-aqsa as shown above links is secretly and deliberately being destroyed and it is the reason why Palestinians and even Rabbis defend it so viciously against such attacks by the so called archaeological digs.

Please don't let those fake Jews who harbour extreme hatred towards Muslim, who have NAZI ideological belief, who have no respect of the WW2 Jewish holocaust, ever tell you that the mosque on Temple mount is ALaqsa mosque.

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## 500

ARSENAL6 said:


> And to proof mr 500s lies :
> 
> THIS IS AL AQSA MOSQUE :
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Al-aqsa-mosque01_cropped.JPG
> 
> THIS IS Dome of the Rock on *TEMPLE MOUNT*
> File:Temple Mount.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


LOL where is my "lie"?  Both buildings are on same mountain part of the same complex.



> The Dome of the rock is purposely named by Jewish hating, Zionist Islamaphobes as ALqsa mosque, is to show the world that the Mosque is not being destroyed by archaeological digs when in fact the real mosque (AL-aqsa mosque, Solomon temple) is.


Thanks, thats one of the funniest conspiracy theories I heard so far.


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## Majnun

Israel might not support Pakistan but neither would the Palestinians or the Syrians or any of the militant groups in that area. Pakistan itself has no reason to support Palestine or to support Israel and we should just stay out of that general area. We have enough problems as it is, no need to add this to the list.

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## ARSENAL6

500 said:


> LOL where is my "lie"?  Both buildings are on same mountain part of the same complex.
> .


 
DID I miss something here ? Did I ever mention about the two mosque not being together on the same mount part of the same complex ? no I was just showing the difference ! I should have said the ALqsa Mosque was on the south part. SUprised you didn't know that ? From Israel 500 ? SO yes you are pretty much lying

Its typical of your conspracy nut theroies to twist the truth 

Thats right you just bring in the mad philosopher ideas, everyone knows how much of idiot you can get, your post proves it. I knew WHAT YOU WERE THINKING
AFterall I'm not the one who publishes their own IP address for the whole WORLD to see.  

Well done



500 said:


> .
> 
> 
> Thanks, thats one of the funniest conspiracy theories I heard so far.



[/quote]

THE arcechlogical dig has been documented by Rabbis its not conspiracy you numb nut.
And if you want Conspriacy see what the ISraeli Govt say about palistenian terrorist groups like hamas - a threat to Isreal ? Why, did Israeli allowed them fire their firecrakers at Israeli boarders when Israel has the latest weapons and defence capabilties ? 
but thanks for the laugh buddy !


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## Majnun

Generally, remember, most Arabs, _most_, do not give a damn about Pakistan. Why should we hurt our own interests supporting those who would not support us in our time of need? I am not referring to the Saudis, who have been very close to us, nor to the Yemenis, but rather to the Syrians, to the Iraqis, to the Palestinians. In fact, the Palestinians themselves stabbed the Turks in the back during WWI. That being said, that does not mean we should support Israel, we definitely have no need to do that either.

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## niaz

SMustafaMoiz said:


> Generally, remember, most Arabs, _most_, do not give a damn about Pakistan. Why should we hurt our own interests supporting those who would not support us in our time of need? I am not referring to the Saudis, who have been very close to us, nor to the Yemenis, but rather to the Syrians, to the Iraqis, to the Palestinians. In fact, the Palestinians themselves stabbed the Turks in the back during WWI. That being said, that does not mean we should support Israel, we definitely have no need to do that either.



You are probably right. A lot of Arabs, especially those of Egypt, Kuwait and Dubai have a strong preference for India and the Indians. Nevertheless, I personally care for the Palestinian cause on humanitarian grounds if nothing else and am therefore strongly against expansionist policies of the Likud gov&#8217;t headed by Netanyahu. 

I am however not anti Jewish only anti Zionist. Sad to say that there is no shortage of bigots, whether Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or new born Christians. As long as this situation prevails, a rational discussion is not possible on any sensitive issue. Following tactics of the Muslim killer Narender Modi of BJP, who accuses you of spying for Pakistan when he is at a loss for words; I find Pakistani bigots accuse you of being either a Qadiani or pro Jewish. I have been accused of being put up by the Jews by an honorable member on page 70 of this very thread.


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## 500

SMustafaMoiz said:


> Israel might not support Pakistan but neither would the Palestinians or the Syrians or any of the militant groups in that area. Pakistan itself has no reason to support Palestine or to support Israel and we should just stay out of that general area. We have enough problems as it is, no need to add this to the list.


Well diplomatic relationships does not mean support. USSR and USA had diplomatic relationships even duringthe cold war, when they killed each other in Korea.



ARSENAL6 said:


> DID I miss something here ? Did I ever mention about the two mosque not being together on the same mount part of the same complex ?


Then why you jumped to the topic attacking me?



> THE arcechlogical dig has been documented by Rabbis its not conspiracy you numb nut.


Archeological dig is not a secret and nothing has to do with any Rabbis. It does not posess any threat to Al Aqsa.



> And if you want Conspriacy see what the ISraeli Govt say about palistenian terrorist groups like hamas - a threat to Isreal ?


They are threat to Israeli citizens, no one said that they are threat to Israel.



> Why, did Israeli allowed them fire their firecrakers at Israeli boarders when Israel has the latest weapons and defence capabilties ?


Rockets are fired and stored in dence populated areas.


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## silent hawk

Self deleted


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

SMustafaMoiz said:


> Generally, remember, most Arabs, _most_, do not give a damn about Pakistan. Why should we hurt our own interests supporting those who would not support us in our time of need? I am not referring to the Saudis, who have been very close to us, nor to the Yemenis, but rather to the Syrians, to the Iraqis, to the Palestinians. In fact, the Palestinians themselves stabbed the Turks in the back during WWI. That being said, that does not mean we should support Israel, we definitely have no need to do that either.




you are 100% right. .


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## LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Look, I REQUEST my Pak bros to please stop blaming Arabs especially Saudis right now. You just get a view of Saudi Arabia from internet but I have been there.

When Pakistan carried out the Nuclear explosions, the Saudis were so happy that it seemed like they themselves have become a Nuclear power. .
Please dont doubt there love for Pakistan. . .

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## silent hawk

SMustafaMoiz said:


> Generally, remember, most Arabs, _most_, do not give a damn about Pakistan. Why should we hurt our own interests supporting those who would not support us in our time of need? I am not referring to the Saudis, who have been very close to us, nor to the Yemenis, but rather to the Syrians, to the Iraqis, to the Palestinians. In fact, the Palestinians themselves stabbed the Turks in the back during WWI. That being said, that does not mean we should support Israel, we definitely have no need to do that either.



The Jordanians have also been very close to and respect Pakistan a lot.


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## Xestan

*"The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim]*,

I cannot betray my Prophet [S.A.W], I have to answer him on the day of judgment, no mater whatever the arabs or anyone thinks of Pakistan, we have a duty from ALLAH to protect Muslims, Muslims are one body, there is nothing called nationalism in Islam, if you don't agree, you are denying Prophet [S.A.W]. Simple!

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## silent hawk

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> *"The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim]*,
> 
> I cannot betray my Prophet [S.A.W], I have to answer him on the day of judgment, no mater whatever the arabs or anyone thinks of Pakistan, we have a duty from ALLAH to protect Muslims, Muslims are one body, there is nothing called nationalism in Islam, if you don't agree, you are denying Prophet [S.A.W]. Simple!



I would suggest that in life especially in religion we should not deal in absolutes. There may be a provision for nationalism in Islam as given below

Al-Hujraat
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (13)

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## S_O_C_O_M

SMustafaMoiz said:


> Generally, remember, most Arabs, _most_, do not give a damn about Pakistan. Why should we hurt our own interests supporting those who would not support us in our time of need? I am not referring to the Saudis, who have been very close to us, nor to the Yemenis, but rather to the Syrians, to the Iraqis, to the Palestinians. In fact, the Palestinians themselves stabbed the Turks in the back during WWI. That being said, that does not mean we should support Israel, we definitely have no need to do that either.


 
Arabs hate Iranians, Arabs hate Afghans, Arabs hate Turks, etc. *Arabs hate Arabs *. Arabs and other Semitic groups like Copts, Chaldeans, Assyrians hate each other. There are 22 Arab countries and Arabs are certainly not united. The Egyptians hate Saudis, Lebanese looking down on Yemeni, Kuwati hate Iraqis and so on. Look how the Iraqis killed each other off after the U.S. invaded...

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## CardSharp

S_O_C_O_M said:


> Arabs hate Iranians, Arabs hate Afghans, Arabs hate Turks, etc. *Arabs hate Arabs *. Arabs and other Semitic groups like Copts, Chaldeans, Assyrians hate each other. There are 22 Arab countries and Arabs are certainly not united. The Egyptians hate Saudis, Lebanese looking down on Yemeni, Kuwati hate Iraqis and so on. Look how the Iraqis killed each other off after the U.S. invaded...



I wonder why the Arabs are so disunited? I've heard it conjectured that it is because their society is rooted in tribal nomadism.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

CardSharp said:


> I wonder why the Arabs are so disunited? I've heard it conjectured that it is because their society is rooted in tribal nomadism.



That is because they do not refer to Islam in their affairs my dear CardSharp...

They will continue to be humiliated in this life (and the next) as long as they do not refer back to Islam for the solution to their problems... When you have petty organizations like Arab League, there is no way on Earth that they will get out of their current misery... 

Nationalism is a disease, but the reality on ground is that it is pretty much dead... The only Nationalism that you will see today is confined to the rulers and leaders of the Arabs and they are doing it for two reasons... to please their masters in the west and to maintain the status quo of division amongst Muslims... The worst enemies that we have are our leaders, its as simple as that...

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## silent hawk

CardSharp said:


> I wonder why the Arabs are so disunited? I've heard it conjectured that it is because their society is rooted in tribal nomadism.



Had this been the reason then History would bear witness that the Arabs were never united. The existance of a viable practically implementable Islamic model is what united the Arabs. The absense of this model is what most probably disunites them now.

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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

niaz said:


> You are probably right. A lot of Arabs, especially those of Egypt, Kuwait and Dubai have a strong preference for India and the Indians. Nevertheless, I personally care for the Palestinian cause on humanitarian grounds if nothing else and am therefore strongly against expansionist policies of the Likud govt headed by Netanyahu.
> 
> I am however not anti Jewish only anti Zionist. Sad to say that there is no shortage of bigots, whether Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or new born Christians. As long as this situation prevails, a rational discussion is not possible on any sensitive issue. Following tactics of the Muslim killer Narender Modi of BJP, who accuses you of spying for Pakistan when he is at a loss for words; I find Pakistani bigots accuse you of being either a Qadiani or pro Jewish. I have been accused of being put up by the Jews by an honorable member on page 70 of this very thread.



I did not look at page 70 but have a hunch that you may be referring to me (if not thats grand)... but if yes please read on...

My elder brother... NO... I m not accusing you of any such thing... My only concern is that sometimes we in our good nature as Muslims lose track of our objectives and completely go off tangent... and sometimes we are not clear in our ideals or at least in the expression of them, we remain vague...

What more can I ask of you niaz as long as you state that you are supporter of Jewish welfare but against the Zionist ideology... This is what any Muslim should aspire to and as long as you state this clearly, then there is no difference between my ideas and your ideas... Israel is the very expression of Zionism in the world and once you reject it as a model for solving the Palestinian problem than like it or not, you shall be treated as an enemy by the Zionist state and neither they nor the Islamist will differentiate between you or any other Muslim who sincerely wants an end to the ongoing violence that is happening in Palestine...

As for Qadianis or people being paid for creating an opinion... it was not an accusation my dear... it was more like a warning that we should be aware of adopting ideas that are spread around for Zionist propaganda and misinformation... Just take a look at what 500 says here... Can anyone ever take someone like him seriously who states things like Israel does not target civilians... that too in this day and age of information being available to everyone...

Lastly... brothers (this is not just for niaz here) but all those who desire to live and die as Muslims, great tests are coming upon us... and our personal differences aside, we are the only ones who can and should look out for each other... watch each others backs and never let doubt enter into our hearts for each other... This division game of our enemies is fast coming to an end... inshaAllah the Ummah of Muhammad saw shall be given the huge responsibility of becoming the care takers of the world once again... so our stance should be of dignity, justice and the best character... I think we can certainly achieve this... inshaAllah

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## ARSENAL6

500 said:


> Well diplomatic relationships does not mean support. USSR and USA had diplomatic relationships even duringthe cold war, when they killed each other in Korea.
> Then why you jumped to the topic attacking me?
> Archeological dig is not a secret and nothing has to do with any Rabbis. It does not posess any threat to Al Aqsa.
> They are threat to Israeli citizens, no one said that they are threat to Israel.
> Rockets are fired and stored in dence populated areas.






Your post in  red  with mine in  blue  




ARSENAL6 said:


> _ DID I miss something here ? Did I ever mention about the two mosque not being together on the same mount part of the same complex ? _





500 said:


> _ Then why you jumped to the topic attacking me? _



...and weren't we talking about the mosque being on the same mount ?


I attack anyone who indirectly support genocide, holocaust by supporting things that IDF do and ignoring their action on Palestinian people WHICH A PRETTY SIMILAR TO Nazi.
here are examples of your post on other threads like justifying state-of-art weapons that Israel doesn't need and is backed up the US against anyone fro the middle east who dares to attack not mention nearly all Arab govt like Saudi are puppet to American and will do anything -going off topic here this just an example)



500 said:


> 1) You did not know that Syria attacked Israel after Six day war.
> 2) As I said, Iran is using proxies because Israel has technological advantage. Otherwise they would not be afraid to attack us directly. We need to maintain this advantage.
> 3) Many of Israeli jets are very old, they need to be replaced anyway.
> 4) Why you are not wondering about Saudi Arabia that buys 60 bln weapons. Why they need hundreds of F-15 with AESA radars? - Against Yemeni insurgence?
> .



no proof of Syria attacking after six day please give links if you know different.
and this



500 said:


> It was not a mosque. There is no any picture of "mosque" prior to destruction.


whether before or not the picture does show destruction of the mosques and its contents like the holy quran. Making such sarcastic remarks on someones suffering you simply have no sympathy and you justify the cause - thus going back to the reason why I attack people who support genocide. And yes such destruction is part of genocide its the erasing of people's culture, believes and religion - their way of life and mass murdering people that the Israeli govt and IDF are working so hard to achieve a fully
so-called "Jewish" state.

And Speaking about genocide here is what is Israel doing that Nazi Germany try to do in WW2 (Holocaust):

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1998/11/16272

Beside if a Muslim said things like _ "It was not a synagogue or Hindu Temple or church. There is no any picture of "synagogue or Hindu Temple or church" prior to destruction"_
when clearly there was, just like you have done you would have spend half of your life accusing Muslim as being extremist that harbour hate to everyone.

Can we say that about you after that sick sarcastic remarks you made - which is on the same level of the jokes about Jews in the oven during the Holocaust of WW2 ?


---------------------


ARSENAL6 said:


> _
> THE archaeological dig has been documented by Rabbis its not conspiracy you numb nut. _





500 said:


> _
> Archeological dig is not a secret and nothing has to do with any Rabbis. It does not  *posess*  any threat to Al Aqsa. _


 

I clearly showed what AL-Aqsa and the temple mount. my post at 1227

Here is the link of the destruction of Al-aqsa mosque:
Al-Aqsa mosque under threat of destruction - Kavkazcenter.com
Militant Coalition of Christian Fundamentalist and Jewish Orthodox Cults Plots Destruction of Al Aqsa Mosque

-----------------------------


ARSENAL6 said:


> _
> And if you want Conspiracy see what the Israeli Govt say about Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas - a threat to Israel ? _





500 said:


> _
> They are threat to Israeli citizens, no one said that they are threat to Israel. _



???
SO where do Israeli citizens come from ? Pakistan ? England, America , Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mars, Vulcan ? 


---------------------------------



ARSENAL6 said:


> _
> Why, did Israeli allowed them fire their firecrackers at Israeli boarders when Israel has the latest weapons and defence capabilities ? _






500 said:


> _
> Rockets are fired and stored in  *dence*  populated areas. _



I SAID WHY DID THEY ALLOW THEM TO FIRE not where they were stored ! Re-read what I have posted and stop avoiding the question.
BTW isn't quite out of portion that Palistinan kids are thowing stone and Israel is using Tanks, Gunship, f16 and Warship against them ? 


If Nazi Germany are at fault for extermination of a race people then what the hell does it say about Israel when creating ethnic bomb

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1998/11/16272

Every Jew has the right to fight back against any racist nazi aggression to survive just like any Arab has the right to fight back against any racist Israeli aggression to survive .


I guess you're going to apply simply to keep up the propaganda which are nothing more than silly illogical posts.
but here something for you :

YouTube - Israeli Army of Cyber-Soldiers Target Our Right to Know

YouTube - Israeli Minister "We always use the anti-Semitism trick or bring up the Holocaust"

Obviously like you have done in the past when replying to my post twisting my words and avoiding the question and if you do it again it only proves that what I'm saying is the truth and you are just ranting with a hot head. Here is a hint if an agruement has been delt with then it in you best interest to understand it and stop instead of ranting on and on like headless chicken. It is absolutly living in fantasy land to say that the Israel is innocent, doing no harm but only the arabs are the only one causing troubles.


I will now end it for your sake and I won't continue the agruement. 
However if you persists that you agree with the action of Israeli govt (see above) genocide of Arabs ( completely different from defending Israel) then it only proves that your argument are example of the hysterical neurotic personalities which immerse yourselves in denial as you fight to maintain you ignorance, your ridged weakness, backward and racist views . Naturaly you won't answer my question and keep avoiding the issue at hand as predicted and typical of your sort. You know, deep down inside you, that I'm right and you were wrong in the first place.

BTW for re-assurance for you, you look more unreliable and a bit off your rocker (trying to be extremly polite here ) when you do make absurd comment of IDF being a force for good when the opposite is more of the truth and within reality.


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## Kambojaric

CardSharp said:


> I wonder why the Arabs are so disunited? I've heard it conjectured that it is because their society is rooted in tribal nomadism.



I would say they are so disunited because Arabs arent actually a racial group, but an amalgimation of several ethnic groups who adopted the arabic language as their mother tounge. So an Arab of Morocco wont have much in common with an Arab from Oman. In fact their dialects will differ so much that some even classify them as different languages. Hence the perception that exists that Arabs form one unified block in the Middle East is actually not true. Arabs of Lebanon take pride in their Phenocian heritage. Arabs of Iraq take pride in their Babylonian heritage and i need not mention what the Egyptians are proud of. Thus their is a lot of local pride present, hence the rivalries.


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