# Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)



## HAIDER

_This article will be udated periodically. UPdated April 25th, 2008
We will closely watch this breaking news, and monitor it very closely._


Per Janes Defense Weekly, the news item about the Pakistani refusal to purchase additional planes has been denied. What is amazing is that the original story was not refuted directly by Pakistan. Why did the Pakistani news media reported the reduction of the number of F-16s that it had planned to order? Pakistan had ordered 36 (18+1 8) F-16s from General Dynamics, USA. After the first 18, Pakistan had the option to buy an additional 18. According the news items planted in the press Pakistan had chosen not to exercise that option. According to press reports, the official &#8220;company line&#8221; is that the number of planes have been reduced because of financial constraints.
However the timing of the story about the cancellation is curious. Both China and Pakistan have set goals to increase mutual trade to the $15 Bilion mark. In China President Musharraf announced that the goal will be met that the number will be over $16.5 Billion. No business deal had been announced. The F-16 cancellation comes right on the heels of President Musharraf&#8217;s visit to China where ostensibly Pakistan has been offered some advanced Chinese hardware. The head of the Chinese Air Force and the Defense Minster of China are in Pakistan right now and the Foreign Minister is arriving in a weeks time. *According to new reports Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (comparable F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon and the U.S. Navy F-18 Hornet.) with eventual transfer of the plane&#8217;s production to Pakistan. The J-11 is the latest and most versatile aircraft in the PLAAF.*
Russia infuriated with Chinese export copis of Su-27 jet fighters: Russia&#8217;s attempts to settle down on China&#8217;s arms market have been made to no avail, the Nezavisimaya Gazeta reports. Chinese pirates have entered a new level of activity. They mastered the production technology and developed the Chinese production of Su-27 analogues with a view to subsequently export Russia infuriated with Chinese export copies of Su-27 jet fighters - Pravda.Ru

Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices, according to a media report. Russia may sue China over pirated fighter Press Trust of India / Moscow April 22, 2008

Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, is the violation of inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property,&#8221; leading daily &#8216;Nezavisimaya Gazeta&#8217; reported today. Press Trust of India / Moscow April 22, 2008

The American F-16s offered to Pakistan come with no transfer of technology and is a black-box sale where Pakistan has no control over what it can do with the planes. It is to be noted that the deal offered to India by General Dynamics comes with local production of the plane and transfer of technology.

The J-11s are a great trade for the F-16s (block 50).

PAF 2008: Today the PAF is a manufacturer, assembler, purchaser and exporter of planes and services. The Pakistan Airforce of 2008 is totally different enterprise than the Pakistan Airforce of 1980 when it purchased the F-16s as a matter of pride. That pride turned to dust when the US imposed dilibitating sanctions on Pakistan. Pakistan which had paid $450 million cash for the planes, never got the planes, nor did she ever get the money back General Dynamics unable to deliver the planes, parked them in a desert and eventually the USAF picked them up.

TOO MANY STRINGS: The F-16s, with their intrusive inspection regime and cumbersome restrictions on where they can be kept are considered more a liability than an asset for the PAF. The contract of the F-a6 says that the planes have to parked separate from the other planes of the PAF, and the planes in theory at least have been tinkered with so that they cannot carry Nuclear weapons. The PAF is also scared of secret US &#8220;kill buttons&#8221; on the planes which would render them useless in combat.

Gone are the days when every taxi, truck, bus and van in Pakistan used to have an F-16 sticker on it and Pakistanis boys grew up playing with models of the plane. Today one see the JF-Thunder on the buses, vans and trucks along with a slogan &#8220;Pak-Cheen dosti Zindabad&#8221; (Long live Pakistan-China friendship).

The pride in the Pakistan Airforce today is not the F-16 but the JF-17 Thunder&#8211;a plane with ever increasing amount of indigenously produced content. It is unimaginable that the new government would irritate the PAF and the army by reducing the order for the F-16s. Recent Indian news reports state that Russia is going to sue China for exporting the F-11s to Pakistan and other countries. What is curious about this story is that PAF had yet to publicly acknowledge the purchase of F-11s from China! The new F-11 are based on the one seater Su 27s, but also the newer one is based upon the two seater Su-30. China purchased the Su 27s, but later canceled the order after its version of the Su-27 was successful.

The reduction of the F-16 order should be seen in the context of the earlier reduction in the F-16 order. At that time the excuse that was given was the earthquake. However a few weeks later the PAF announced the purchase of F-10s from China. Now the same pattern is being repeated. The advantage of purchasing the planes from China is that China transfers the technology so that Pakistan can eventually build them in Pakistan. The local production of the plane unleashes the traditional Pakistani entrepreneurial creativity which helped it build an atomic bomb and indigenous missiles. Chinese planes do not come with crippling restrictions on usage and political strings. For example after Pakistan used her F-104s against India in the 1965 war, this act of self defense was deemed a violation of the contract. Even though Pakistan was the founding member of SEATO and CENTO, and had two executive defense agreements with the USA, an arms embargo was imposed on Pakistan. Heavily dependent on the USA for arms, the Pakistani government had to fight the 1971 war under a US arms embargo.

With this history, it is no wonder that the PAF now prides itself on its own capabilities and does not want to be dependent on US arms and planes. The PAF now has the infrastructure to make the plane, and can purchase enough technology in the open market to make a plane very competitive with the usually superior American technology. The PAF seems to be following a triage strategy
The Chinese have been very successful with this strategy. The Pakistani armed forces have also been successful with this strategy learned by purchasing, and then improving missiles, UAVs and tanks etc.
Pakistan buys fewer F-16s? Indigenous Flanker from China! - Fighter aircraft - Zimbio

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## BATMAN

Twin engine, that would add new chapter in PAF's history.
Is F-11 Pakistani designation of J-11 ?
I understand su27 and su30 have same airframe or not ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Very interesting development, if true, and with ToT as well!

I am guessing the WS-10 will be the engine/s (Chinese), which will be shared with the J-10 - the commonality of parts should allow for easier maintenance.

Will keep watching your thread Haider.


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## circuitbaba

hurrah i wrote in a thread two weeks ago That J-1 isgood option especially In Karachi...lol...Huraah.....thank God.....18 f-16 r enouh we dont need more if we r geting J-11.....


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## TOPGUN

Great job ! Haider i as well will watch this news very closely i really do hope this comes true time to shift and change roads!!


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## EagleEyes

J-11 will really boost the long range capability of Pakistan. But some how i doubt that the deal will go through considering that Pakistan is more interested in the J-10 and probably producing it on its own later on.


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## Owais

I think 2 squadron of F11-B as bombing role (to replace A-5) will be enough for PAF


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## vish

You do realize that if the PRC sells the J-11 to Pakistan, it is going to face a lot of flak from Russia.

Plus, the first post is mere speculation and cannot be termed entirely credible.

I doubt PAF would get the J-11; it can procure the Sukhois directly from Russia though.


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## IceCold

Hmmm J-11, this means a good bye to the J-10 or can we safely assume that a mix force of J-10 and J-11b will equip the future PAF.


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## IceCold

vish said:


> I doubt PAF would get the J-11; it can procure the Sukhois directly from Russia though.



No we cant buy directly from Russia, the reason is india. However we might see a shift in Moscow's policy if india decides to go for a western jet for its MRCA requirement. Until then china will be our prime contractor, besides lets not forget that J-11 is not entirely a copy of the SU-27 as many changes and domestic parts upto 70% are chinese and moreover i believe that if china feels that it could get a big order from another country in this case pakistan for her J-11, it can bring the russians too into the contract to some extent. Remember the engine deal of the JF-17.

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## SABRE

vish said:


> You do realize that if the PRC sells the J-11 to Pakistan, it is going to face a lot of flak from Russia.
> 
> Plus, the first post is mere speculation and cannot be termed entirely credible.
> 
> I doubt PAF would get the J-11; it can procure the Sukhois directly from Russia though.



J-11 is Chinese Su-27 built under license from Russia/Sukhoi. J-11'B' on the other hand is free of Russian license. China terminated the license and started building its own Su-27 version (dubbed J-11B) couple of years back.

This is the same story as with the F-6 in 1960s. First built under licensed and than without license and sold to PAF in 1965. Same could be said for F-7 but only difference is that there never was any license for MiG-21 for China nor any ToT. China built its own version by itself.

Sukhois can be purchased from Russia directly but there will always be uncertainty - & you can guess the reasons.

As for the whole J-11B for PAF, it appears mere speculation. Lets wait and watch. Meanwhile I am onto confirming it from more reliable sources.


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## shehbazi2001

What I would like to add is that we must not be afraid of twin-engined fighters. We already had twin-engined like F-6 and have A-5, both twin-engined.

We know that all the electric power generated onboard an aircraft is by its engines..........and a long-range radar needs a lot of power.......a single engine will very hardly provide that power.....and if the jet engine spends all its energy on producing electricity, I doubt that its main function of thrust will be affected.......now u see that practically too, all the long-range radars are mounted over twin-engined fighters..........

F-15, F-14, Su-27, Su-30, F-22, Rafale, Eurofighter plus at the end F/A-18........they all have very good radars, and all are twin-engined........remember that a radar electronics need cooling too.......the cooling system also needs power.......again burden on jet engine.......


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## JK!

Owais said:


> I think 2 squadron of F11-B as bombing role (to replace A-5) will be enough for PAF



I'd prefer to see J10/FC20 in the bombing or strike role with the J11s in an air superiority role.


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## vish

SABRE said:


> J-11 is Chinese Su-27 built under license from Russia/Sukhoi. J-11'B' on the other hand is free of Russian license. China terminated the license and started building its own Su-27 version (dubbed J-11B) couple of years back.
> 
> This is the same story as with the F-6 in 1960s. First built under licensed and than without license and sold to PAF in 1965. Same could be said for F-7 but only difference is that there never was any license for MiG-21 for China nor any ToT. China built its own version by itself.
> 
> Sukhois can be purchased from Russia directly but there will always be uncertainty - & you can guess the reasons.
> 
> As for the whole J-11B for PAF, it appears mere speculation. Lets wait and watch. Meanwhile I am onto confirming it from more reliable sources.



Very true. The J-11B is free from Russian license; in other words, J-11B is a Chinese pirated copy of Su-27. The Russians are furious with the Chinese over their manufacturing of the J-11B, let alone export to other countries. 

Plus, I think Russo-Sino defence cooperation will be hit big time (if PAF gets the J-11); in other words, PRC's sole source for modern weaponry goes kaput.

Further, does the PAF want/need/afford this plane (bearing in mind its resources)? I think Murad Sir would be able to answer that question better.


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## araz

A very intersting news. However, please allow me to take it with a pinch of salt. Seeing what is happenning to oil in the world, the availability of another aircraft which allegedly does better than the F11 in combat scenarios and is single engined(J10) why does PAF want to go for J11? I understand that a J11 mounted with twin WS13 will give commonality to the force and may not be a management nightmare, but we have to understand we are a defensive force and local defence can be adequately mounted with small fighters like F16, Thunder, and J10. for offensive measures, we will employ BMs and CMs
Secondly, you may have heard, PAF has had to transfer K8 assembly out of Kamra to concentrate on Thunder. We are not getting J10 assembly line due to lack of resources and manpower, why would we then take on J11 assembly? 
So in short we need to discuss what need there is for a fighter like J11 in PAF, whether we can afford it, and whether it is a practical buy for PAF? Muradk Saheb, Xman, and other people afiliated with PAF(No disrespect meant to Brother Haider)can we have your views as well.
WaSalam
Araz

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## Neo

araz said:


> A very intersting news. However, please allow me to take it with a pinch of salt. Seeing what is happenning to oil in the world, the availability of another aircraft which allegedly does better than the F11 in combat scenarios and is single engined(J10) why odes PAF want to go for J11. I understand that a J11 mounted with twin WS13 will give commonality to the force and may not be a management nightmare, but we have to understand we are a defensive force and local defence can be adequately mounted with small fighters like F16, Thunder, and J10.
> Secondly, you may have heard, PAF has had to transfer K8 assembly out of Kamra to concentrate on Thunder. We are not getting J10 assemvbly line due to lack of resources and manpower, why would we then take on J11 assembly?
> Soin short we need to discuss what need there ids for a fighter like J11 in PAF, whether we can afford it, and whether it is a practical buy for PAF. Muradk Saheb, Xman, and other people afiliated with PAF(No disrespect meant to Brother Haider)can we have your views as well.
> WaSalam
> Araz




Sir, 

J-11B is being evaluated for induction beyond 2012 and yes there's a need for long range MRCA as part of PAF's two phase modernisation strategy. 

The first phase included replacement of older and obsolete fleet of F-6/F-7/AQ-5 and Mirages with JF-17 and F-16 and strengthening airdefence.

Second phase is about expanding the fleet and her offensive capabilities inwhich FC-20 and J-11B will play greater role than the JF-17, again we're looking into 2012-2014, 4-6 years from now, as possible window to induct these heavy platforms with comonality in avionics and weaponsuit.

The report is true.


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## SABRE

I have asked around some of the reliable sources in Pakistan and even talked to JANES ppl (after a long time ... and now my cell credit is Rs. 3 only .. lol). Final word: News is not credible. But to make you ppl happy all I can say is there are 2 more Pakistani sources to go who usually have 90&#37; information on PAF deals and offers. 

On my own analysis; even if this news is true I don't see J-11B in PAF before 2012 or 2015 (2015 most likely) and by than we don't know what other options would be on the table. J-10 would easily be available by than, then the J-11B.

And just for the information. In 1990s Ukraine offered Pakistan about 24 (2 sqdns) Su-27s. However, due to some issues the deal was scrapped. 2 Su-27s did arrive in Pakistan for evaluation - even F-16s are said to have combated with them. Results? I have no idea.


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## Myth_buster_1

A very good move by the GoP to cut the numbers of F-16s. I just had that thought that our F-16s could be bugged or sensitive AMRAAM technology could be handed over to India. F-16 is indeed a very capable fighter but in case of PAF, too many strings attached! As for F-16 package is concerned.. No AMRAAM and Block 52+ too dangerous for PAK... only MLU for our existing fleet of 34 and that with the involvement of Turkey. 

so now we have J-11 with full TOT no strings attached very low price, but with a setback that its a illegal copy. on the other hand we have a capable fighter with better arms package but too many strings attached.
J-11's price is what matters.. if Pakistan can negotiate the price tag $30 million a piece and that its not a illegal copy then i think j-11 is the choice.. 
This should be the last resort if Pakistan cant secure the F-16 deal.

*I am not in favor of J-11/F-11, why not more J-10s if PAF is really that desperate to find an alternative of F-16s.. *


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## HAIDER

> *Chinese J-11s for Pakistan?*
> 
> An Indian report is claiming that China is exporting the J-11 to Pakistan. This is news to many, because the J-11 is a very modern fighter comparable to the Sukho Su-27Sk.The head of the Chinese Airforce and the Defense Minster of China are in Pakistan right now and the Foreign Minister is arriving a weeks time.
> 
> Pakistan had politely turned down Block 50 F-16s after President Musharraf was offered the Chinese J-10s. The earthquake was used as an excuse to back out of the F-16 deal, and reduce the number of F-16s purchased by Pakistan. The news that Pakistan will be receiving the J-11 one of the most modern Chinese fighters certainly confirms the rumors that have been circulating on the net.
> 
> Russia may sue China over pirated fighter Press Trust of India / Moscow April 22, 2008
> 
> Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices, according to a media report.
> 
> &#8220;Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, is the violation of inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property,&#8221; leading daily &#8216;Nezavisimaya Gazeta&#8217; reported today.
> 
> Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the daily disclosed.
> 
> &#8220;It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007 China unveiled its &#8216;development&#8217;- J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27,&#8221; it reported.
> 
> The daily said that although China suspended the contract on the supply of kits, it continued the import of engines as from the very beginning Moscow had refused to give assembly licence, &#8216;even for a lot of money&#8217;


.
Well sounds like something happening behind close doors. Because cutting down F16 numbers must have reason, when Pakistan desperately need high tech avionics.


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## SU 30 MKI

But The Big Question lines from where PAF Bring modern RADAR, WEAPONS , defense Systems and moreover Engine....


Remember Currently PAF is not buying any Chinese RADAR , engine , etc etc...why not Chinese RADAR and WEAPON System ??? Because they are inferior.

Like this any plane with not good RADAR, WEAPON systems, defense system is useless.....epically without good engine.

Chinese 4th Gen like 3rd Gen of Western things


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## Myth_buster_1

SU 30 MKI said:


> But The Big Question lines from where PAF Bring modern RADAR, WEAPONS , defense Systems and moreover Engine....
> 
> 
> Remember Currently PAF is not buying any Chinese RADAR , engine , etc etc...why not Chinese RADAR and WEAPON System ??? Because they are inferior.
> 
> Like this any plane with not good RADAR, WEAPON systems, defense system is useless.....epically without good engine.
> 
> *Chinese 4th Gen like 3rd Gen of Western things*



Indian military tech is like pakistani CNG rakshaz..
same level of reply..


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## kidwaibhai

SU 30 MKI said:


> But The Big Question lines from where PAF Bring modern RADAR, WEAPONS , defense Systems and moreover Engine....
> 
> 
> Remember Currently PAF is not buying any Chinese RADAR , engine , etc etc...why not Chinese RADAR and WEAPON System ??? Because they are inferior.
> 
> Like this any plane with not good RADAR, WEAPON systems, defense system is useless.....epically without good engine.
> 
> Chinese 4th Gen like 3rd Gen of Western things



First of all i doubt that the PAF will go with Ruski tech. even if we are buying these aircraft the radars wont be a problem because we are incorporating western radar and weapons in the jf-17 we could do the same thing with this J-11B


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## SABRE

SU 30 MKI said:


> But The Big Question lines from where PAF Bring modern RADAR, WEAPONS , defense Systems and moreover Engine....
> 
> 
> Remember Currently PAF is not buying any Chinese RADAR , engine , etc etc...why not Chinese RADAR and WEAPON System ??? Because they are inferior.
> 
> Like this any plane with not good RADAR, WEAPON systems, defense system is useless.....epically without good engine.
> 
> Chinese 4th Gen like 3rd Gen of Western things



Probably the same place where PAF is buying Radar and Missiles for the JF-17. FRANCE. Capitalist world usually gives a damn about who you are as long as you can give them hard cash for their products.


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## Neo

Chinese technolgy may be inferior compared to western standards if it meets the ASR its good enough for us, if not we go shopping in the west in friendly countries like France and Italy.

FC-20 will have a mix of Chinese, French, Italian and German subsystems, incase we go for the J-11B we'll probably apply same avionics suite to cut costs and to improve performance.


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## Quwa

Consider the requirements; to the Chinese the J-10 is a solid air superiority fighter and the J-11-series is more of a maritime & strike fighter. It appears that PLAAF will focus on the new J-10X currently under development & testing - J-10X would probably form the basis of FC-20. PLAN and PLAAF's strike fleets are considering the J-11B and J-11BS (two seat) variants. 

IMO the PAF as a defensive force would be fine with the FC-20 & JF-17, based on their pattern of improvement - it would be our equivalent to Eurofighter & Gripen. However for power projection - i.e. long-range strike; maritime support to Navy, etc, the J-11B would be a good choice. It's possible that after 2015 the PN and PAF Southern Command would both use J-11B/BS. 

As for performance...in terms of at least physical airframe performance, I think the J-10X and J-11B in a few years would be Typhoon & SU-35BM class, respectively.


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## fatman17

vish said:


> You do realize that if the PRC sells the J-11 to Pakistan, it is going to face a lot of flak from Russia.
> 
> *Plus, the first post is mere speculation and cannot be termed entirely credible.*
> 
> I doubt PAF would get the J-11; it can procure the Sukhois directly from Russia though.



i agree - the source is questionable!


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## ddrbdgzy

good news .


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## Proud to be Pakistani

Source to be verified!

I donot think China can offer them without Russian approval.


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## ddrbdgzy

i think china have his way to offer pakistan the J-11


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## EagleEyes

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Source to be verified!
> 
> I donot think China can offer them without Russian approval.



Other than the copyright issue. Most of the equipment is 100&#37; Chinese.

I do support your view however. That its probably not gonna happen.


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## Quwa

Just wait...

I bet most of you were saying that PAF won't buy Block-52+ only a couple years ago.

From what I've read, it seems China won't export J-11B to Pakistan simply because their local requirements won't allow it - there aren't enough being produced. Firstly China will complete their original Su-27 contract with J-11B, thus far they only produced 100 out of the 200 agreed with Russia. Then the PLAAF & PLAN will probably order more J-11B and the 2-seat J-11BS, but likely under only slight production increases. Right now production is slow and requirements are big...the J-11B export has nothing to do with politics IMHO.


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## ddrbdgzy

i think china will pratice its promise to pakistan


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## IceCold

So if cutting orders were actually meant that we will go for the J-11, then why in the hell did we go for the initial 18 Block-52 at the first place? It seems rather odd for the PAF to have four different platforms ( JF-17, F-16s, J-10, J-11B)


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## Myth_buster_1

Chinese have license to build J-11s and now they have found a way to revers engineer and now offered the illegal copy version to pakistan, which is really cheap.


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## Quwa

IceCold said:


> So if cutting orders were actually meant that we will go for the J-11, then why in the hell did we go for the initial 18 Block-52 at the first place? It seems rather odd for the PAF to have four different platforms ( JF-17, F-16s, J-10, J-11B)


The original source is not reliable; if the first 18 Block-52+ are delivered, the PAF will execute the option for 18 additional platforms. I think the PAF will look to keep the total F-16 fleet in the 100-150 range, so we may see some used Block-32s given CCIP upgrades.

As for J-11B, I don't think China would export it soon as the PLAAF & PLAN require a good number for their local requirements. Plus over the next few years the J-11B will also see improvements, I think China's goal is to make J-11B on par with SU-35BM. Future J-11Bs will probably be equipped with AESA radar, new avionics-ECM/EW and possibly TVC+supercruise capable WS-10A developments.

Nonetheless the J-10-series is expected to be their key air superiority fighter, while the J-11B-series their primarily long-range strike & maritime fighter. PLAAF may procure JF-17s as backbone fighters for general use and to absorb losses. If the PAF were to procure J-11B, it would likely be a future variant that is equivalent to Su-35BM - and would likely use it in maritime & long-range strike roles.


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## alibaz

The priority of Chinese fighters over US F-16s is good cause no strings are attached to it. Now we should come out of F16 fobia. We should look for the equipment with ToT and guranteed availability in all situations. Pak Ckina Friendship Zindabad


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## SU 30 MKI

kidwaibhai said:


> First of all i doubt that the PAF will go with Ruski tech. even if we are buying these aircraft the radars wont be a problem because we are incorporating western radar and weapons in the jf-17 we could do the same thing with this J-11B




But Russia will never let that happen with its intellectual property. it will never let this happen..... its controls oil flow to Europe...and they will never take panga with russian for few million...

with Copy SU 27 Copy it will be difficult....for Chinese and PAK to move ahead


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## Myth_buster_1

SU 30 MKI said:


> But Russia will never let that happen with its intellectual property. it will never let this happen..... its controls oil flow to Europe...and they will never take panga with russian for few million...
> 
> with Copy SU 27 Copy it will be difficult....for Chinese and PAK to move ahead



remember mig-17/19/21 t-55/59.... all reverse engineered..
though f-11 is just an offer but unlikely to be executed..
it will be foolish of PAF to acquire same platform as IAF Su-30mk. the chance are just slim as IAF acquiring F-16s as PAF F-11s..


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## HAIDER

Its new era, everything for sale. Whole Europe, US, USSR selling their top of line fighter either in open market or their allies. Why China has restriction to make money?. Specially selling to Pakistan has motive behind that, which is securing the trade from Gawadar port.Which will be the life line of Chinese trade from goods to oil delivery in the emerging Chinese industry. 
More we buy from China more Pakistan will be technical slave of China. Thats what every big power wants. Plus it will be extraordinary leverage against enemy. Bring in J11 will partially neutralize Indian air superiority in the region, also disturb the balance of power. And all these power will push India to buy more arms with better technical advancement from either Russia or US.

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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

wel i guess 
Self Reliance is the first and the last key to success.
If J11 comes with a technology transfer then its a good deal..
guys i m an electronic engineer and i think that people here definately have the potential to devlop almost anything weather its the radar or any electronic equipement in a fighter plane.. they just need financial support. I personly know some people in Pakistan who can make even a space shuttle for you ... But you know This is Pakistan .We dont have any respect of talent ...


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## Quwa

23march;

In terms of airframe, I don't think IAF would have much trouble figuring out the performance parameters of the F-16 or any Western fighter. The advantage J-11B holds over the Su-27 series is that it is a Chinese built version...i.e. no one knows the materials, design concepts or airframe performance parameters outside of China. Beyond that, the Indians wouldn't even know about the internal systems used on Chinese platforms. In the greater scheme of things, the J-11B would be more of an advantage compared to Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen and F-16.

*H2O3C4Nitrogen*

I think it depends on requirements, IMO PAF might see use in the J-11B series in the advanced fighter-bomber and maritime/naval support role. Pakistan is definitely putting more investment in local talent, for instance the JF-17's avionics are being developed indigenously. I imagine the PAF would push for greater localization and subsystems such as radar, avionics and ECM/EW are on the top of the list. With foreign assistance from China, E.U and co-development with Turkey, Ukraine and South Africa - I think Pakistan will be able to customize its aircraft the way it sees fit.


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## HAIDER

Here is the recent link from major Indian news paper. 


> MOSCOW: Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production
> for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices, a leading Russian daily reported
> on Tuesday.
> 
> "Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.
> Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India



News reflects China already made decision of exporting this fighter to Pakistan. Otherwise Russia didn't need to threat China. Well it look like both Russia and India are worried about export of this plane.


----------



## vish

HAIDER said:


> Here is the recent link from major Indian news paper.
> 
> 
> News reflects China already made decision of exporting this fighter to Pakistan. Otherwise Russia didn't need to threat China. Well it look like both Russia and India are worried about export of this plane.



If China does export the J-11 to Pakistan, it will severely dent Sino-Russian defence co-operation. Further, any major international arms manufacturer (Russian, Isreali, etc.) will think twice about dealing with China, especially in high-tech weapons, an area where China is very weak.


----------



## EagleEyes

Actually, i doubt that China will supply J-11 to Pakistan without getting approval by the Russian defence ministry. Russians are playing from behind these days in getting everything transfered to Pakistan wherever it is interested. The issue is not getting the J-11, the issue is Pakistan willing to buy it or not.


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## mxiong

I really doubt J-11B will be available for export in the short future, because even PLAAF is complaining about Shenyang's incapability to manufacture enough J-11B within the time frame (before J-xx coming out) to accommodate the urgent domestic demand for heavy-weight long-range multi-role fighters. Besides such move will unnecessarily undermine the Sino-Russo alliance against USA which remains paramount for China's strategic interests.


----------



## IceCold

I think once pakistan decides to buy this bird from china, china will bring the russians into the contract with contracts given to both russain and chinese firms. As mxiong mentioned about Shenyang's incapability to manufacture high numbers, it will be a mix order and this way russians wont complaint either, besides russia will not have to bear any pressure from the indian side knowning that china is selling and not russia.


----------



## Neo

Here's an interesting dialogue between Officer of Engineers and some Indian members from a sister forum, WAB.
OoE has earned his reputation as a knowledgeable analyst on Chinese Military Hardware, this is what he wrote about JF-17 last week: 



Deltacamelately said:


> Guess what? Just a few posts back somebody quoted the LCA to be a better craft than the JF17. Weird isn't it?
> A bastardised project with a wonderful Russian engine.





Officer of Engineers said:


> Not a valid comparison, Major. The JF-17 is deployed. The LCA is not. Therefore, no comparison is valid until we see the LCA in its final form.





Sumku said:


> Correct but then again LCA would be a lot better than Mig21's and we all know that JF-17 is based largely on Mig21. So whatever form LCA takes, it would still be better than JF-17[FC-1].
> 
> LCA even if deployed in its present configuration, is still better than FC-1. Dont you think so





Officer of Engineers said:


> Depends on who you talk to. The Russians are saying the JF-17/FC-1 is the MiG-33. They sold the designs to China.
> 
> The PLA, who doesn't want this bird, are saying that it's the SUPER-7.
> 
> I really don't know how to compare the two. I'm not a birdbrain but both planes can perform beyond human endurance. In other words, the pilot would give out long before the plane does. So, it comes down to other factors such as avionics and weapons load. Just by the similar size of the two birds, the performance would be similar and while one may be better in one area and inferior in another, I think it would balance out one way or the other.
> 
> My birdbrain pals, however, all stipulated that you cannot compare planes until they're actually deployed. Case in point is the difference between the YF-17 and the F-18 superbug. Going in the opposite direction is the J-6/MiG-19 to the Q/A-5.





Sameer said:


> No the MiG 33 is the original name given to the MiG29M which looks nothing like the FC-1
> 
> cheers





Officer of Engineers said:


> No, not that one. Project R33.





BenRoethig said:


> R33 was the soviet answer to the F-16. China bought and modified the design.



Courtesy from WAB
Link: How Potent is LCA - Page 2 - World Affairs Board


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## sodocpkgj

guys what do you think about pak buying j11s instead of j10s.i think that will make pak airforce 1 of the best.


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## Muradk

sodocpkgj said:


> guys what do you think about pak buying j11s instead of j10s.i think that will make pak airforce 1 of the best.



I thought we were one of the best. Right now J-10 is on our list and J-11 is not, yes in future we might. J-10 when it enters PAF the numbers will automatically go up from 36 to 50. The potential of this plane is yet to be seen on a open platform.


----------



## EagleEyes

OoE is very bias in my opinion even when he tries to be a neutral Chinese defense expert. IMO, he is not going to believe JF-17 will be in service with the PLAAF until he sees the pictures.


----------



## Jliu

mxiong said:


> I really doubt J-11B will be available for export in the short future, because even PLAAF is complaining about Shenyang's incapability to manufacture enough J-11B within the time frame (before J-xx coming out) to accommodate the urgent domestic demand for heavy-weight long-range multi-role fighters. Besides such move will unnecessarily undermine the Sino-Russo alliance against USA which remains paramount for China's strategic interests.



What alliance?

The Russians dislike and fear the Chinese and vice versa. There is merely a strong convergence of interests driving cooperation.

It is the same case with Pakistan and the PRC. No matter how many on this forum and in both countries believe in "friends" there are only interests. Now while both peoples may not despise each other observe when the US offered India the nuclear energy deal back in 2006 Pakistan wanted the same deal from the PRC when Pres. Hu was in Islamabad. 

The answer was a flat no.


----------



## Jliu

sodocpkgj said:


> guys what do you think about pak buying j11s instead of j10s.i think that will make pak airforce 1 of the best.



Merely procuring a platform does not make your air force one of the best. You confuse with platform based performance vs systems performance. Systems based forces incorporate advanced situational awareness and C4ISR leveraging platforms and a variety of assets to achieve battlespace dominance.

Take the IAF on the Western Theatre for example. They are a developing AF that has effectively leveraged network centric capabilities to create an integrated redundant system of SAMs, fighters, AWCS, EW and AAA on your border. If you recall the 2004/5 COPE India DACT, the upgraded Mig-21 Bisons of the IAF gave the USAF F-15s a run for their money in BVR leveraging off their Phalcon AWACS. 

Procuring the J11 serves no purpose at all, PAF is better off applying incremental block upgrades to the J-10 and procuring large numbers of JF-17 with F-16 in the strike role with additional Erieye platforms to ensure continuity of coverage.


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## p2prada

Muradk said:


> *I thought we were one of the best.* Right now J-10 is on our list and J-11 is not, yes in future we might. J-10 when it enters PAF the numbers will automatically go up from 36 to 50. The potential of this plane is yet to be seen on a open platform.



Pakistan doesnot even have a decent aircraft for point defence against BVR equipped IAF let alone a capable strike group.

It is no longer the man behind the machine, but machines supporting other machines. Even IAF is a moderate airforce though we are the fourth largest.

What makes an airforce powerful (or in other words "one of the best") is based on how much intelligence can be collected and used effectively.

Thats where AWACs, satellites, "dedicated jamming aircraft"(like EA6 and EA18G) come into play. First shot, First kill is the mantra. Unfortunately, IAF still lacks this capability and so does the PAF.

PAF still lacks BVR capability. Plus the old F-16s are still sitting in their hangars requiring upgrades which have no BVR capability either. the JF-17s have still not been integrated with the SD-10 for production.


Getting back to the topic,
Pak PM told parliament that there will be no more hike in defence expenditure for sometime. How will that affect PAF's ability to induct more fighters that includes JF-17, J-10 and the flanker clones???[plus the F-16s which will obvioulsy get first priority]

Even if the fighters are bought....wont maintaining be a problem. Life cycle costs are as high as the fighter costs..sometimes higher.

If the J-11s are procured, which trainers will be purchased for training pilots.


----------



## araz

p2prada said:


> Hmmm... I expected more as u were an air commodore. I dont mean to be rude even if it does sound like that. But, an air com being so naive is really upsetting.
> 
> Pakistan doesnot even have a decent aircraft for point defence against BVR equipped IAF let alone a capable strike group.
> 
> It is no longer the man behind the machine, but machines supporting other machines. Even IAF is a moderate airforce though we are the fourth largest.
> 
> What makes an airforce powerful (or in other words "one of the best") is based on how much intelligence can be collected and used effectively.
> 
> Thats where AWACs, satellites, "dedicated jamming aircraft"(like EA6 and EA18G) come into play. First shot, First kill is the mantra. Unfortunately, IAF still lacks this capability and so does the PAF.
> 
> PAF still lacks BVR capability. Plus the old F-16s are still sitting in their hangars requiring upgrades which have no BVR capability either. the JF-17s have still not been integrated with the SD-10 for production.
> 
> 
> Getting back to the topic,
> Pak PM told parliament that there will be no more hike in defence expenditure for sometime. How will that affect PAF's ability to induct more fighters that includes JF-17, J-10 and the flanker clones???[plus the F-16s which will obvioulsy get first priority]
> 
> Even if the fighters are bought....wont maintaining be a problem. Life cycle costs are as high as the fighter costs..sometimes higher.
> 
> If the J-11s are procured, which trainers will be purchased for training pilots.



You are being rude to a senior PAF officer so stop it.
Just because you have not heard of a BVR capable platform in PAF does not mean there is 'nt one and if you want to learn about it read through the various threads on this forum to enhance your awareness. Read up on the Grifo radar on F7 pgs and Mica missile .
Now back to the topic, I like you agree that it seems unlikely in the current economic and acquisition environment that PAF will extend itself with another platform,especially when it has its hands full with Thunder, F16 and J10.
However, if the J11 is ever bought, ther is a thought in certain quarters that it will have a Chinese origin engine. This might bring commonality into the picture and make the purchase a viable one at some point in the future. 
We know that lifetime maintenance costs are higher than the cost of the plane and most contracts are negotiated keeping that in mind. 
You are wrong in your assumption that just because PAF buys J11 ,suddenly all trainers it has will become defunct and it will have to buy new ones. For highnd assetts , PAF utilizes dual seater aircrafts for acclamatisation. In any case experienced pilots are generally chosen for conversion to newer platforms.
Regards
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## p2prada

araz said:


> Just because you have not heard of a BVR capable platform in PAF does not mean there is 'nt one and if you want to learn about it read through the various threads on this forum to enhance your awareness. Read up on the Grifo radar on F7 pgs and Mica missile .
> 
> You are wrong in your assumption that just because PAF buys J11 ,suddenly all trainers it has will become defunct and it will have to buy new ones. For highnd assetts , PAF utilizes dual seater aircrafts for acclamatisation.
> Regards
> Araz





Only Mirage with the rose upgrades are capable of BVR. Pak supposedly developed the H-4 BVRAAM....but i dont see that in the discussions. 
If the SD-10 does not materialize soon, then ur only "capable" platform for BVR is the F-16 block 52 which will take time.





> In any case experienced pilots are generally chosen for conversion to newer platforms.



Maybe so. But that is only initially. Pak has never had a flanker like aircraft. the fighter is large, powerful etc etc than any pak might fly for decades. U need to have supersonic trainers cause of its demanding nature. I m not sure which trainer is used by china, maybe that will do.
In india, experienced pilots are no longer the criteria for flying the MKIs. the HAWKs have helped a lot, so much so that, any rookie pilot can start of with the MKI, which was not the case 3 years ago. Kudos to the Brits.
In India a rookie is the pilot while the experieced pilot sits behind, in case of the MKI. 



> You are being rude to a senior PAF officer so stop it.


If he was a Pak teenager and made such remarks, I wouldnt have said anything cause it only speaks of his patriotism and not of his knowledge. But a retired air comm, who has dealt with some of the most classified information that he might not even be able to share in this forum, comments like a teenager speaks for itself. 
I hope he would just be a little more careful while being sarcastic or serious. 

If he is sarcastic, i will take back all my words.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*P2Prada:*

Murad is not taking back anything.

You have misunderstood the context of his remarks.

Continue on this childish tangent and expect to get shipped out. One thing we do not tolerate is disrespect towards our veterans.

This thread is about the J-11 acquisition. Limit yourself to responding to the on-topic posts.

Anything not related to the potential J-11 acquisition from you will be deleted.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> Only Mirage with the rose upgrades are capable of BVR. Pak supposedly developed the H-4 BVRAAM....but i dont see that in the discussions.


The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15&#37;-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.



> If the SD-10 does not materialize soon, then ur only "capable" platform for BVR is the F-16 block 52 which will take time.


WTF??  First Jf-17 combat ready squdron is to be expected anytime this year. and SD-10 will be acquired before AMRAAM and block 52+..



> Maybe so. But that is only initially. Pak has never had a flanker like aircraft. the fighter is large, powerful etc etc than any pak might fly for decades. U need to have supersonic trainers cause of its demanding nature. I m not sure which trainer is used by china, maybe that will do.



Twin engine MR is not a big deal for pilots when they already exibit exelency in flying single engine fighters.. you may not be aware that handful of PAF pilots have experience in flying KSA F-15s and in this case if PAF is interusted in J-11 at all PAF already has experience in flying J-11s.. not a big deal..



> In india, experienced pilots are no longer the criteria for flying the MKIs. the HAWKs have helped a lot, so much so that, any rookie pilot can start of with the MKI, which was not the case 3 years ago. Kudos to the Brits.
> In India a rookie is the pilot while the experieced pilot sits behind, in case of the MKI.



lol thats funny.. i think IAF should look ahead of traning monkeys to fly MKIs if its that easy to fly and why risk a human life?


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## p2prada

23march said:


> The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.



Have PAF taken delivery of the AMRAAMs. That would be an interesting read.




> WTF??  First Jf-17 combat ready squdron is to be expected anytime this year. and SD-10 will be acquired before AMRAAM and block 52+..



It actually takes 3 years to fully integrate a BVR onto a capable platform. The chinese have started their SD-10 tests only recently.




> Twin engine MR is not a big deal for pilots when they already exibit exelency in flying single engine fighters.. you may not be aware that handful of PAF pilots have experience in flying KSA F-15s and in this case if PAF is interusted in J-11 at all PAF already has experience in flying J-11s.. not a big deal..



Again, only your best pilots must have flown the aircrafts after years of experience and countless hours of flight time. Obviously, its like fish taking to water. I m referring to the numerous rookies who will receive training. What are they gonna train on. U dont need to train on a twin engine MR, u need a supersonic trainer.





> lol thats funny.. i think IAF should look ahead of traning monkeys to fly MKIs if its that easy to fly and why risk a human life?



Nice sense of humour.....
The indian high command were pretty happy with the training capabilities of the HAWK and the Brits. 75 rookies were sent to Brit to train. With the exception of 5, who were not even allowed to fly due to medical and other short comings, all passed and most graduated to fly the MKI.
FYI, the MKI has the most number of movable parts in a fighter. That includes the TVC nozzles.

Heres a link

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::



> News Release
> INDIAN HAWK CREATES HISTORY
> 
> 05 Feb 2008 | Ref. 041/2008
> 
> Indian Hawk Creates History
> 
> Indian Hawk Creates History
> 
> Brough, United Kingdom.  Yesterday, a BAE Systems Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) destined for the Indian Air Force, became the first ever Hawk aircraft to make its maiden flight from the Brough site.
> 
> The jet, the 22nd aircraft out of 24 being built in the UK for the Indian Air Force (IAF), takes its place in history as the first Hawk aircraft designed, manufactured, fully assembled, tested and to make its maiden flight from the Brough site, despite the site producing Hawks for over 30 years.
> 
> The history making flight is just the latest of recent successes on the Indian Hawk programme, which sees BAE Systems delivering a total training package to the IAF. Prior to Christmas the first four Hawks were delivered to their new home at Air Force Station Bidar with the next few aircraft scheduled to arrive in the next few weeks.
> 
> In addition to the supply of the 24 UK built aircraft, with 42 being built under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore, the contract also sees BAE Systems develop, construct, install and commission four computer aided training devices: two cockpit procedures trainers, a flight training device and an avionics part task trainer, these combined with the Computer Aided Learning System provide the required classroom training to support the IAFs training requirement.
> 
> In parallel to delivery of aircraft and training devices, BAE Systems, in partnership with the RAF, has delivered a training programme that will see on its completion in mid-2008, over 75 IAF pilots trained on the current RAF Hawk fleet at RAF Valley. Many of those who have completed the course have returned to India and gone directly onto the IAFs most sophisticated frontline aircraft  a testament to the skill of the pilots and the training they received during their time at RAF Valley.
> 
> But the training being provided isnt restricted to aircrew. A number of the Hawk AJTs that will be supplied to the IAF have also been used to train around 100 IAF engineering officers and technicians in BAE Systems Technical Training Academy at Warton who will support the aircraft when it enters service.
> 
> BAE Systems has also completed conversion training of experienced IAF Flying Instructors to become instructor pilots on the Indian Hawk  these instructors will train the Indian Air Forces next generation of frontline pilots.
> 
> Mark Parkinson, Managing Director, Training Solutions, BAE Systems said: The first flight of an Indian Hawk from our Brough site is another step forward on us delivering a total training solution geared to the specific requirements of the Indian Air Force. The successful delivery of this programme, on schedule, is a prime example of BAE Systems capabilities in developing and managing complex major programmes to meet the needs of our global customer base. 


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*P2prada:*

I think it would be reasonable to assume that the PAF would also look into acquiring trainers if it did make a decision to purchase the J-11.

At this point even the J-11 purchase is speculation.


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## p2prada

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *P2prada:*
> 
> I think it would be reasonable to assume that the PAF would also look into acquiring trainers if it did make a decision to purchase the J-11.
> 
> At this point even the J-11 purchase is speculation.




Exactly my point.

Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

p2prada said:


> Exactly my point.
> 
> Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
> All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.



Not to mention the 5 Eeriye AEW&C, possible Sino-Pak AWACS and setting up a net centric force built around those assets.

The costs can be handled provided political stability comes about, and since all of this will be phased, setting up the infrastructure will not be an issue.

That is the question now - political stability.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> Exactly my point.
> 
> Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
> All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.


NO... 
defence budget is untouched even after political and short term economic crises. everything will be due on date. 
and in fact if American MRCA is not chosen by india Pakistan will have upper hand interms of AMRAAM technical advantage. 
Pakistan defence export is also growing rapidly and i believe pakistan defence income is more then indian at over $500 million annum and likely to be over $700 million next year due to potential JF-17s customers.


----------



## fatman17

23march said:


> NO...
> defence budget is untouched even after political and short term economic crises. everything will be due on date.
> and in fact if American MRCA is not chosen by india Pakistan will have upper hand interms of AMRAAM technical advantage.
> *Pakistan defence export is also growing rapidly and i believe pakistan defence income is more then indian at over $500 million annum and likely to be over $700 million next year due to potential JF-17s customers.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> your comment on defence exports is mere speculation.


----------



## Keysersoze

p2prada said:


> Exactly my point.
> 
> Pak is gonna induct 200+ JF-17, 50+ F-16, 50+ J-10, all in the next few years plus upgrades to other fighters. Along with that PAF will have to build infrastucture to maintain and also provide round the clock training to match india's flight training.
> All this while the country is reeling under pressure due to the war on terror, internal strife and the effects of the earthquake. I mean, can PAK handle the costs.



I love the comment about flight training. It took 20 years for you to get the hawk ordered and even the Indian media were saying that the Mig 21 crashes were due to poor flight training. The PAF has never had any problem with infrastructure or maintaining aircraft which the IAF cannot claim.

Oh and there is plenty of information that is not in the public domain about the PAF's capability. Trust me none of your points were valid in it. I was kinda impressed when I heard it.

Oh and the SD-10 was tested in 2005


The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.

The above is from Janes air launched weapons 2003


----------



## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> I love the comment about flight training. It took 20 years for you to get the hawk ordered and even the Indian media were saying that the Mig 21 crashes were due to poor flight training. The PAF has never had any problem with infrastructure or maintaining aircraft which the IAF cannot claim.
> 
> Oh and there is plenty of information that is not in the public domain about the PAF's capability. Trust me none of your points were valid in it. I was kinda impressed when I heard it.
> 
> Oh and the SD-10 was tested in 2005
> 
> 
> The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.
> 
> The above is from Janes air launched weapons 2003



Well key saying that there was absolutely no problem with PAF regarding aircrafts is not that is digestible.

Check this:
Pakistan Air Force aircraft crashes_English_Xinhua


----------



## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> Well key saying that there was absolutely no problem with PAF regarding aircrafts is not that is digestible.
> 
> Check this:
> Pakistan Air Force aircraft crashes_English_Xinhua



Nitesh I have never claimed that the PAF is invulnerable. However you have to understand that for a Indian member to mock the PAF's training program is not on. 

Was it not a issue for the IAF? And the reasoning behind the procurement of the Hawk Albeit 20 years late?


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Nitesh I have never claimed that the PAF is invulnerable. However you have to understand that for a Indian member to mock the PAF's training program is not on.
> 
> Was it not a issue for the IAF? And the reasoning behind the procurement of the Hawk Albeit 20 years late?



Well, I dont think he was trying to mock the paf program. But let us rest this topic here only. Cos this has already derailed the thread.

Regarding the delay, typical Indian babudom and there pathetic attitude towards the defense readiness. Nothing can be done about it.


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## Keysersoze

My last word on it....you are quite right of course And I will no longer derail this thread. However the gentleman above was very clear in his intentions and I will not stand for it.



BAE joins IAF blame game on Hawk spares
Huma Siddiqui
Posted online: Thursday , June 05, 2008 at 2323 hrs IST


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New Delhi, Jun 4 Even as Indian Air Force cries foul over spares supply by its UK suppliers, BAE Systems has put a question mark on the optimal utilisation of Hawk advance jet trainers fleet by the services. Sources talking to FE on condition of anonymity said that, "There will be serviceability problems. The Indian Air Forcedid not order the required spares until very late and not all those spares have been received yet because of long lead times for manufacturing."

The supplementary spares package which contains 1400 lines of spares, was submitted in February 2006 and was not contracted until January 2008 despite repeated reminders, sources said. This follows claims by the IAF there are problems with servicability of the aircraft as the UK based BAE Systems is not fulfilling its commitment of supplying of modern spare parts for the aircraft.

Sources also revealed that the Hawk AJTis just being flown by Indian Air Force for merely a few hours a week. &#8220;The Bidar air force station in Karnataka which is currently getting ready to train the IAF cadets is hardly flying the aircraft for more than a few hours a week. So, how can there be a question of serviceability, when the machines are not being used,"sources pointed out.

The report of the court of inquiry that was ordered by the Indian Air Force (IAF) into the mishap which led to the British Hawk AJT, valued around Rs 85 crore, being completely destroyed, is expected to come out with its report shortly. 

BAE joins IAF blame game on Hawk spares


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## p2prada

> I love the comment about flight training. It took 20 years for you to get the hawk ordered and even the Indian media were saying that the Mig 21 crashes were due to poor flight training.



Politics is a sticky topic in india and pak. we were lucky to even get the hawks. 

Well, u give a rookie one of the toughest planes to fly which has not been serviced or maintained properly. End result is the crashes. So, u can add serviceability and maintainance along with human error. 



> The PAF has never had any problem with infrastructure or maintaining aircraft which the IAF cannot claim.


Can u tell me on how many sorties have your 34 F-16s left the ground since 1998. Pak has only started receiving upgraded F-16s.




> Oh and there is plenty of information that is not in the public domain about the PAF's capability. Trust me none of your points were valid in it. I was kinda impressed when I heard it.



Hiding behind the iron curtain is impressive by itself. I have to obvioulsy point out the short comings released to the general public. And from what I know, PAF has no experience whatsoever when it comes to twin engine fighters. 

India has decades of experience on VTOL(read sea harriers) and the TVC since the last 5 years. Even China cannot claim this. This also includes carrier aviation.
India has also spent billions getting new equipment, especially simulators, since a decade. 

So, what i meant was PAF lacks training capability for newer generation engines with fighters which have more moving parts(read MKI) "as of now."
What i was trying to prove is that "Can PAF handle newer aircraft, than the ones i mentioned, and can also provide training and maintainance to a new fleet noting her present political and economic condition."

Because by the time PAF start training with newer aircraft, india would have moved on to the fifth gen (read PAKFA)


----------



## p2prada

nitesh said:


> Well, I dont think he was trying to mock the paf program.



I m definitely not mocking the present PAF program. none of the fighters in PAF inventory are as complex as twin engine jets like MKI or the F-15. But listing my concerns on the validity of the present program on future aquisitions that can be hampered by budget considerations. 
Also note that growth in pak military budget has been put on hold as of now, while there is speculation that the indian defence budget may almost double.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> Can u tell me on how many sorties have your 34 F-16s left the ground since 1998. Pak has only started receiving upgraded F-16s.



Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours
October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.

So from 1994-2008 32 pakistani F-16s have clocked over 140,000 accident-free flight hours! unfortunately you are feed of with too much bahratraksha anti-pak nonsense thing and its very hard for you guys to swallow these facts...


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> I m definitely not mocking the present PAF program. none of the fighters in PAF inventory are as complex as twin engine jets like MKI or the F-15. But listing my concerns on the validity of the present program on future aquisitions that can be hampered by budget considerations.
> Also note that growth in pak military budget has been put on hold as of now, while there is speculation that the indian defence budget may almost double.



Pakistan has flown twin engined aircraft in the past and continues to do so. F-6 and A-5 are both twin-engined. In terms of complexity, in the indo-Pakistan context, you cannot compare the one true Electric jet to anything that IAF has until now. This being the F-16. Overall the F-16's engineering support requirements are more complex than most of what is flying in the IAF.

Engineering wise, maintaining F-16 is just as complex as the F-15 (F-15 requiring more work owing to its two engines and size, however the complexity of technology is about the same....thank God for FRU and LRUs).

Alos the above post by March23 does not take into account the massive effort expended during the Afghan war (1984-88). PAF flew the hell out of the F-16s and none of the aircraft were lost due to recurring maintenance issues.


----------



## Imran Khan

sir paf never use F6 this what sir murad say but yes A5 is also paf use F15 of RSAF


----------



## Keysersoze

imran khan said:


> sir paf never use F6 this what sir murad say but yes A5 is also paf use F15 of RSAF



Imran, the PAF DID use the Chinese F-6 (It is also known as the J-6)

You are confusing it with the F-5 which is American.


----------



## blain2

imran khan said:


> sir paf never use F6 this what sir murad say but yes A5 is also paf use F15 of RSAF



As Keys has mentioned, you may be confusing the aircraft designations. The venerable "Chakka" (F-6) was the backbone of the PAF for many decades.

See this for S&G  
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info


----------



## p2prada

blain2 said:


> Pakistan has flown twin engined aircraft in the past and continues to do so. F-6 and A-5 are both twin-engined. In terms of complexity, in the indo-Pakistan context, you cannot compare the one true Electric jet to anything that IAF has until now. This being the F-16. Overall the F-16's engineering support requirements are more complex than most of what is flying in the IAF.
> 
> Engineering wise, maintaining F-16 is just as complex as the F-15 (F-15 requiring more work owing to its two engines and size, however the complexity of technology is about the same....thank God for FRU and LRUs).
> 
> Alos the above post by March23 does not take into account the massive effort expended during the Afghan war (1984-88). PAF flew the hell out of the F-16s and none of the aircraft were lost due to recurring maintenance issues.



A-5 and F-6 are easily vintage planes. No fly-by-wire so no complication like MKI and F-15.


U are actually comparing a F-16A/B with the MKI.
Even the chinese said the J-10 is only as good as the F-16A/B and it is confirmed the MKIs are superior to the su-30MKK which is nowhere close to the J-10.


----------



## p2prada

23march said:


> Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours
> October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
> Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.
> 
> They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.
> 
> Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.
> 
> So from 1994-2008 32 pakistani F-16s have clocked over 140,000 accident-free flight hours! unfortunately you are feed of with too much bahratraksha anti-pak nonsense thing and its very hard for you guys to swallow these facts...



From what i know, PAF had 40 F-16s starting from 1983. How did that reduce to 32??? So, 8 crashed???


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> A-5 and F-6 are easily vintage planes. No fly-by-wire so no complication like MKI and F-15.
> 
> 
> U are actually comparing a F-16A/B with the MKI.
> Even the chinese said the J-10 is only as good as the F-16A/B and it is confirmed the MKIs are superior to the su-30MKK which is nowhere close to the J-10.



Vintage or not, the point I was addressing is the experience dealing with twin-engined aircraft. Of which PAF has plenty. Your other points about stuff like challenges with FBW etc. are also rudimentary for an Air Force like the PAF.

And yes I am comparing F-16A/B (FBW started with the F-16s in case you were not aware) with the MKI as difficult as it may be for you to agree with. The complexity of the systems on the F-16 is just as high as that of any other aircraft around. The supply chain, the LRUs etc. etc. are as complicated as they get. The newer aircraft like Raptor etc. are actually easier to maintain than the contemporary teen series (F-15, F-16 and F/A-18).

Comparing an aircraft's superior capabilities on paper does not make the aircraft a more or less complicated aircraft. Some due to their design are inherently hard to support, others are easier. Also complexity is not a virtue either, I am just telling you the stop thinking that MKIs are something grand or brand new to aviation. What is in the MKI is in others. The TVC would require more maintenance but the avionics, parts, propulsion in Western platforms has always been just as or more challenging than their Russian counterparts.


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> From what i know, PAF had 40 F-16s starting from 1983. How did that reduce to 32??? So, 8 crashed???



Yes 8 were lost. Work out the attrition and its better than IAF's for Mirage 2000 after PAF has flown these aircraft for 24 years (include 4 years of combat flying). Also include sanctions in your calculations (IAF were never sanctioned for spares).

IAF inducted M2000 in 85 or so, since then have lost 9 of these and at a minimum 9 (for sure more) Mig-29s.

Overall F-16 maintenance has not been too shabby in the Indo-Pak context.


----------



## Muradk

blain2 said:


> As Keys has mentioned, you may be confusing the aircraft designations. The venerable "Chakka" (F-6) was the backbone of the PAF for many decades.
> 
> See this for S&G
> Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info



Imrand you must be confusing it with F-5 , I commanded 14 Sqd when they had F-6's.


----------



## Keysersoze

p2prada said:


> A-5 and F-6 are easily vintage planes. No fly-by-wire so no complication like MKI and F-15.
> 
> 
> U are actually comparing a F-16A/B with the MKI.
> Even the chinese said the J-10 is only as good as the F-16A/B and it is confirmed the MKIs are superior to the su-30MKK which is nowhere close to the J-10.



Simple fact is that according to reports The IAF has not been able to to maintain their fleet. Whereas the F-16's have been flying without any problems, despite sanctions. And I am quite sure that they having maintained a complex aircraft (Despite what you think the F-16 was and is a complex aircraft to maintain) and would have no problems doing so.

Nearly 20% of Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots are doing desk jobs because of a shortage of planes, the BBC has learnt.

Classified documents seen by the BBC show that in all about a third of the IAF's 2,500 pilots have been assigned ground and administrative duties.

Of these, 450 fit and trained pilots simply lack planes, the documents say.

Growing numbers of IAF pilots have been refused permission to quit in recent months. The Indian Air Force had "no comment" on the BBC's findings.

The IAF has about 790 aircraft in total, including 340 fighter planes.

Only half the fleet is available at any given time while the rest are being serviced, the documents show.

By 2010 the air forces' transport fleet will be reduced by nearly 40%.

The IAF, which currently has 34 squadrons, plans to reduce that number to 28 by 2013.

Poor utilisation

Some of the pilots put on ground and administrative jobs by the force spoke to the BBC.

They said the jobs they had been given contradicted claims by senior officials that pilots who wanted to leave the IAF could not do so as it would create a shortage of pilots.

"Whatever the authorities might say, the fact is that the air force is overstaffed in terms of pilots," one of the pilots, who has served in the IAF for 15 years, told the BBC.

This was despite the IAF spending millions of rupees on pilot training, he said.

Another serving pilot with more than a decade of service said: "In every air force station, you would find fully competent and medically fit pilots posted to various ground administrative jobs.

"The average utilisation rate of pilots in terms of flying hours per month is very low, as much as five to six hours a month," he added.

Earlier this year, the chief of the Indian Air Force told the BBC he was aware that some pilots wanted to leave his force, although he said the numbers were much lower than reported.

Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi put it down to India's booming civil aviation industry and the lucrative salaries being offered by commercial airlines.

The air chief marshal said he did not begrudge the high salaries being offered to his pilots by private airlines. But he said he could not release pilots unless they were not required by the IAF.



BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Indian air force 'lacks planes'


----------



## Keysersoze

Indian Air Force Hawk Takeoff Crash

Indian Air Force HawkIndian officials confirmed on the 29th April that a Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) had crashed during takeoff, but added that no serious injury was caused to either of the pilots.

This was the first accident that an Indian Air Force Hawk had been involved in.

The Air Force jet, according to the officials, crashed into a wall immediately after taking off from Bidar Air Base, Karnataka. Just how much damage occurred to the airframe is not yet known.

"Barely seconds after liftoff, there was apparently some technical snag, one official said.

One pilot ejected, while the other came down with the aircraft. Fortunately, none of them was seriously injured.
Indian Hawk Order

Four years ago, India placed an order with the Hawks maker  BAE Systems  for the delivery of 66 of the type.

So far, ten are in service.

These ten are from an initial batch of 24 which are being delivered as complete airframes direct from BAE.

The remaining 42 are to be made locally by Indias HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) firm.

The Indian Air Force is proposing to acquire 40 more Hawks in a $1.25 billion dollar deal.
Air Force Hawks Grounded

After the crash, a grounding was imposed on the Indian Air Forces nine other Hawks, pending completion of a investigation into what happened.

In a statement, BAE said it would be inappropriate to speculate on the cause of the incident until the investigations end.

"We will fully support IAF and the defence ministry in any investigation they undertake", a spokesman for the firm added.
61 Crashes, 30 Pilots Killed: Antony

On the same day that details emerged on the Hawk crash, A.K Antony, Indian Defence Minister, told Parliament that, since 2003, 61 Indian Air Force aircraft had been involved in crashes.

30 pilots, he added, had been killed.

"The main reasons behind these crashes were human error and technical faults, and continuous effort is under way in the Indian Air Force to enhance and upgrade flight safety", Antony said.

Source  Armed Forces Internationals Aviation Expert

Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer Crashes at Bidar Air Base, India


----------



## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> From what i know, PAF had 40 F-16s starting from 1983. How did that reduce to 32??? So, 8 crashed???



1 got shot down by a wingman and 2 got hit by wild boars on the runway during takeoff while the rest crashed due to technical fault.


----------



## p2prada

Keysersoze said:


> Simple fact is that according to reports The IAF has not been able to to maintain their fleet. Whereas the F-16's have been flying without any problems, despite sanctions. And I am quite sure that they having maintained a complex aircraft (Despite what you think the F-16 was and is a complex aircraft to maintain) and would have no problems doing so.
> 
> Nearly 20% of Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots are doing desk jobs because of a shortage of planes, the BBC has learnt.
> 
> Classified documents seen by the BBC show that in all about a third of the IAF's 2,500 pilots have been assigned ground and administrative duties.
> 
> Of these, 450 fit and trained pilots simply lack planes, the documents say.
> 
> Growing numbers of IAF pilots have been refused permission to quit in recent months. The Indian Air Force had "no comment" on the BBC's findings.
> 
> The IAF has about 790 aircraft in total, including 340 fighter planes.
> 
> Only half the fleet is available at any given time while the rest are being serviced, the documents show.
> 
> By 2010 the air forces' transport fleet will be reduced by nearly 40%.
> 
> The IAF, which currently has 34 squadrons, plans to reduce that number to 28 by 2013.
> 
> Poor utilisation
> 
> Some of the pilots put on ground and administrative jobs by the force spoke to the BBC.
> 
> They said the jobs they had been given contradicted claims by senior officials that pilots who wanted to leave the IAF could not do so as it would create a shortage of pilots.
> 
> "Whatever the authorities might say, the fact is that the air force is overstaffed in terms of pilots," one of the pilots, who has served in the IAF for 15 years, told the BBC.
> 
> This was despite the IAF spending millions of rupees on pilot training, he said.
> 
> Another serving pilot with more than a decade of service said: "In every air force station, you would find fully competent and medically fit pilots posted to various ground administrative jobs.
> 
> "The average utilisation rate of pilots in terms of flying hours per month is very low, as much as five to six hours a month," he added.
> 
> Earlier this year, the chief of the Indian Air Force told the BBC he was aware that some pilots wanted to leave his force, although he said the numbers were much lower than reported.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi put it down to India's booming civil aviation industry and the lucrative salaries being offered by commercial airlines.
> 
> The air chief marshal said he did not begrudge the high salaries being offered to his pilots by private airlines. But he said he could not release pilots unless they were not required by the IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Indian air force 'lacks planes'





Have to agree with the report.
we have 100 mig-29s and mirage-2000 being upgraded.
Most of the Mig-21, 23, 25 and 27 have been grounded or phased out.

the only ones flying are around 50MKIs, 180 Mig-21bison and all the jags.

Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> Have to agree with the report.
> we have 100 mig-29s and mirage-2000 being upgraded.
> Most of the Mig-21, 23, 25 and 27 have been grounded or phased out.
> 
> the only ones flying are around 50MKIs, 180 Mig-21bison and all the jags.
> 
> Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.



I would not be so optimistic about 180 Bisons flying. Bison's serviceability rate has been reported to be around 50%.


----------



## EagleEyes

> Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.



Honey, Its 128 MRCA and PAKFA is likely to be less than that.


----------



## p2prada

blain2 said:


> Vintage or not, the point I was addressing is the experience dealing with twin-engined aircraft. Of which PAF has plenty. Your other points about stuff like challenges with FBW etc. are also rudimentary for an Air Force like the PAF.
> 
> And yes I am comparing F-16A/B (FBW started with the F-16s in case you were not aware) with the MKI as difficult as it may be for you to agree with. The complexity of the systems on the F-16 is just as high as that of any other aircraft around. The supply chain, the LRUs etc. etc. are as complicated as they get. The newer aircraft like Raptor etc. are actually easier to maintain than the contemporary teen series (F-15, F-16 and F/A-18).
> 
> Comparing an aircraft's superior capabilities on paper does not make the aircraft a more or less complicated aircraft. Some due to their design are inherently hard to support, others are easier. Also complexity is not a virtue either, I am just telling you the stop thinking that MKIs are something grand or brand new to aviation. What is in the MKI is in others. The TVC would require more maintenance but the avionics, parts, propulsion in Western platforms has always been just as or more challenging than their Russian counterparts.




I mainly meant to complications in flying. the F-16 is said to be one of the easiest to fly while the MKI is not so easy. the maintainance part is for the twin engined aircraft, where F-16 is single engined

the MKI has 9 moving parts->2 ailerons, 1 rudder, 2 TVC nozzles, 2 canards, 2 wing flaps
making it more complex to fly. For eg: TVC equipped EF-2000 with canards. Complex to fly.

My original quote:


> So, what i meant was PAF lacks training capability for newer generation engines with fighters which have *more moving parts*(read MKI) "as of now."


----------



## p2prada

blain2 said:


> I would not be so optimistic about 180 Bisons flying.  Bison's serviceability rate has been reported to be around 50%.



They have only recently been upgraded, Any links saying the same.


----------



## Keysersoze

WebMaster said:


> Honey, Its 128 MRCA and PAKFA is likely to be less than that.



Wow the numbers keep creeping up lol. And actually the 50 MKI's are not all in the air.


----------



## shehbazi2001

p2prada said:


> Have to agree with the report.
> we have 100 mig-29s and mirage-2000 being upgraded.
> Most of the Mig-21, 23, 25 and 27 have been grounded or phased out.
> 
> the only ones flying are around 50MKIs, 180 Mig-21bison and all the jags.
> 
> Future orders include 200 MRCA and 200+ PAKFA speculated after the completion of the MRCA.



I remember that Mig-27s were upgraded just a few years ago and its amazing if they are grounded or phased out. The plans were to retire Mig-23s and old Mig-21s. Then there were some reports of the retirement of Mig-25 but Mig-27 it must be new development.


----------



## p2prada

WebMaster said:


> Honey, Its 128 MRCA and PAKFA is likely to be less than that.



It was quoted as 126. But there is a possibility of it being raised by 74 since the LCA is delayed. It was mentioned by the highest officials.

We are spending $5bil on the PAKFA JV. Defence min Anthony and the air chief told we would be procuring atleast 200 PAKFAs.


----------



## p2prada

23march said:


> *1 got shot down by a wingman* and 2 got hit by wild boars on the runway during takeoff while the rest crashed due to technical fault.



How did that happen???


----------



## p2prada

shehbazi2001 said:


> I remember that Mig-27s were upgraded just a few years ago and its amazing if they are grounded or phased out. The plans were to retire Mig-23s and old Mig-21s. Then there were some reports of the retirement of Mig-25 but Mig-27 it must be new development.



Hmm, i guess i made a mistake about the Mig-27 then. srry


----------



## shehbazi2001

p2prada said:


> I mainly meant to complications in flying. the F-16 is said to be one of the easiest to fly while the MKI is not so easy. the maintainance part is for the twin engined aircraft, where F-16 is single engined
> 
> the MKI has 9 moving parts->2 ailerons, 1 rudder, 2 TVC nozzles, 2 canards, 2 wing flaps
> making it more complex to fly. For eg: TVC equipped EF-2000 with canards. Complex to fly.
> 
> My original quote:



Your method of counting the moving parts is very rudimentary. If u start to count like this then many other aircraft may seem more complex like even the F-4 Phantom. In F-4J, the elevators also had leading edge slats. In F-15, even the intakes are variable and are not fixed. The F-16 intake is fixed, therefore its less complex but this less complication means that its not as good as F-15 at different altitudes and flight regimes.

However, in your count, you did not count those 2 elevators that almost every aircraft has. 

Reportedly EF-2000 does not use conventional TVC, its nozzles dont move. So thats TVC without much mechanical complication.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> I mainly meant to complications in flying.* the F-16 is said to be one of the easiest to fly while the MKI is not so easy*. the maintainance part is for the twin engined aircraft, where F-16 is single engined
> 
> the MKI has 9 moving parts->2 ailerons, 1 rudder, 2 TVC nozzles, 2 canards, 2 wing flaps
> making it more complex to fly. For eg: TVC equipped EF-2000 with canards. Complex to fly.
> 
> My original quote:



WTF?



p2prada said:


> *In india, experienced pilots are no longer the criteria for flying the MKIs.* the HAWKs have helped a lot, so much so that, any rookie pilot can start of with the MKI, which was not the case 3 years ago. Kudos to the Brits.
> *In India a rookie is the pilot while the experieced pilot sits behind, in case of the MKI. *



Please dont engage you self in a discussion when you cant even stand to your point or else you will make a fool out of your self and it is starting to look like you are one!


----------



## Myth_buster_1

p2prada said:


> How did that happen???



That happened during a dogfight between soviet/afghan vs PAF and the wingman mistakenly fired his sidewinder at his leader thinking it was a bogi! but just to let you know. we managed to shot down over 10 soviet/afghan fighters with F-16s without a single loss to enemy!


----------



## shehbazi2001

23march said:


> WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> Please dont engage you self in a discussion when you cant even stand to your point or else you will make a fool out of your self and it is starting to look like you are one!




Perhaps he is right in saying that young pilots are assigned to Flanker. I was amazed myself when I saw in the video those young pilots in Flanker squadrons. You just do a search on youtube and u shall find that 2-part video. If u dont find, I shall post it here.

Its not the time that only 40 year old can fly something. Nowadays the youngsters have more knowledge than their seniors had at the same age.(if that youngster has passion for flying)

F-16 is a FBW (fly by wire) aircraft and is more easy to fly than those aircrafts that are without FBW. F-16 is more responsive to commands. You just move the stick a little and it shall start rolling.

Moreover the pilot seat in the F-16 is at such an angle that pilot can tolerate more gs as compared to older aircrafts.


----------



## Muradk

23march said:


> 1 got shot down by a wingman and 2 got hit by wild boars on the runway during takeoff while the rest crashed due to technical fault.



Where do you get this crapy info.
1 got shot by his wing man .
1 got hit by wild bore
1 crashed compressor stalled.
4 crashed technical failure.
1 Crash bird hit plane got on fire had to eject.


----------



## p2prada

uyJzdFCnWbA[/media] - Su-30 MKI IAF In The Line Of Duty Part 1
c1DmPm1gEIg[/media] - Su-30 MKI IAF In The Line Of Duty Part 2
YMSFNHOQFy0[/media] - SU-30 MKI In The Line Of Duty part 3

i guess these will help

the second one shows the rookies


----------



## p2prada

shehbazi2001 said:


> Perhaps he is right in saying that young pilots are assigned to Flanker. I was amazed myself when I saw in the video those young pilots in Flanker squadrons. You just do a search on youtube and u shall find that 2-part video. If u dont find, I shall post it here.
> 
> *Its not the time that only 40 year old can fly something. Nowadays the youngsters have more knowledge than their seniors had at the same age.(if that youngster has passion for flying)*
> 
> F-16 is a FBW (fly by wire) aircraft and is more easy to fly than those aircrafts that are without FBW. F-16 is more responsive to commands. You just move the stick a little and it shall start rolling.
> 
> Moreover the pilot seat in the F-16 is at such an angle that pilot can tolerate more gs as compared to older aircrafts.




Even the mirage 2000 is supposed to be easy. 

Passion et al, even trainers like Hawk are necessary.


----------



## Muradk

These videos have been uploaded in multimedia section since last year. This is the 3rd time a member is uploading it please check the mulitimedia section before you put it on. But still thank you .

*About the BBC reporting about IAF*,A fighter pilot from IAF made copies of what they are doing and what not about IAF, Copies were sent to BBC and PAF AHQ. Since than IAF has been looking and asking that who sent out the report. 
The BBC guy wount tell and they will never ask us, I saw the report who ever sent it he was very careful there wasn't a single name in it. So this means BBC didn't know as well. The the document were so Authentic that BBC published it. We told there embassodor and gave him a copy of it. I figure he sent it to BBC and PAF just to embarrse IAF.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> Where do you get this crapy info.
> 1 got shot by his wing man .
> 1 got hit by wild bore
> 1 crashed compressor stalled.
> 4 crashed technical failure.
> 1 Crash bird hit plane got on fire had to eject.



thank you for the info but ouch.. was that harsh comment necessary?


----------



## p2prada

Muradk said:


> *About the BBC reporting about IAF*,A fighter pilot from IAF made copies of what they are doing and what not about IAF, Copies were sent to BBC and PAF AHQ. Since than IAF has been looking and asking that who sent out the report.
> The BBC guy wount tell and they will never ask us, I saw the report who ever sent it he was very careful there wasn't a single name in it. So this means BBC didn't know as well. The the document were so Authentic that BBC published it. We told there embassodor and gave him a copy of it. I figure he sent it to BBC and PAF just to embarrse IAF.




Hmm..... do u even know how the indian govt functions.
we have something called RTI - right to information act.
if u consider this embarassing, this is just the tip of the iceberg. this was not a classified info, it is known to all that the mig-21s are old, which form half our fleet. 21, 23 and 25 being phased out is a serious thing and the schools and colleges know about it.

Everybody in india, atleast students looking for a career in the military knew that pilots are out of fighter planes. it was a hot topic of discussion way back in 2004 when i graduated high school. 12th std. 

Some of our career councellers told us the IAF is promising but there is going to be a massive phase out of fighters with no immediate replacements. Three students who wanted to be in the IAF opted out. Only one got into the army. the other 3 actually made a wise choice. 1 is in the navy and the other in the merchant navy. the last guy took up a civilian course. all are into engineering.

the airline industry was crying about lack of pilots and were requesting the IAF to release pilots for commercial aviation. Airforce HQ only let retired pilots into commercial indutry cause they had no say of the matter. the younger pilots were sitting without any immediate hope of flying. so, the airlines started hiring foreign pilots in large numbers.

we need the MRCA, LCA, MCA, PAKFA pretty soon.

looks to me ur info was flawed or it was just to embarass the IAF in britain. info that was already available in india but not in britain.




> These videos have been uploaded in multimedia section since last year. This is the 3rd time a member is uploading it please check the mulitimedia section before you put it on. But still thank you .



will be careful


----------



## Keysersoze

p2prada said:


> Hmm..... do u even know how the indian govt functions.
> we have something called RTI - right to information act.
> if u consider this embarassing, this is just the tip of the iceberg. this was not a classified info, it is known to all that the mig-21s are old, which form half our fleet. 21, 23 and 25 being phased out is a serious thing and the schools and colleges know about it.
> 
> Everybody in india, atleast students looking for a career in the military knew that pilots are out of fighter planes. it was a hot topic of discussion way back in 2004 when i graduated high school. 12th std.
> 
> Some of our career councellers told us the IAF is promising but there is going to be a massive phase out of fighters with no immediate replacements. Three students who wanted to be in the IAF opted out. Only one got into the army. the other 3 actually made a wise choice. 1 is in the navy and the other in the merchant navy. the last guy took up a civilian course. all are into engineering.
> 
> the airline industry was crying about lack of pilots and were requesting the IAF to release pilots for commercial aviation. Airforce HQ only let retired pilots into commercial indutry cause they had no say of the matter. the younger pilots were sitting without any immediate hope of flying. so, the airlines started hiring foreign pilots in large numbers.
> 
> we need the MRCA, LCA, MCA, PAKFA pretty soon.
> 
> looks to me ur info was flawed or it was just to embarass the IAF in britain. info that was already available in india but not in britain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> will be careful



Wow you obviously don't know how military organisations work..........
members are not even allowed to voice their opinions on anything to the press. it is always dealt with by press officers etc. And you claim it was well known. Why would a military force allow its operational levels be open to scrutiny?


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## p2prada

Keysersoze said:


> Wow you obviously don't know how military organisations work..........
> members are not even allowed to voice their opinions on anything to the press. it is always dealt with by press officers etc. And you claim it was well known. Why would a military force allow its operational levels be open to scrutiny?



Dude....isnt it obvious. atleast 300 mig-21s. too old and need upgrades. Bis and Bison upgrade program mooted. MRCA was thought of in 1998 and the govt released a press release. why??
All this was in the news back in 1998. especially after the 1998 tests.

But what made it unimportant is the govt thought LCA would be operational and inducted from 2006. Once the LCA was delayed, and a lot of the old migs started crashing............................everybody knew IAF was in trouble.
the Su deal in 1998 was the only hope.

Once 2002 came, and it was confirmed that even the MKis will be delayed. So, the services was no longer a craze especially when FII investment started big time.

the media in india is powerful dude. Living under Mush has been painful for pak to know there is something called a media.


did u know that the CAG:Comptroller Auditor General of india started auditing all the defence related companies and international deals like maniacs to curb corruption. Even a missing rupee was reported in the media.


----------



## p2prada

Keysersoze said:


> . Why would a military force allow its operational levels be open to scrutiny?



Do u know that when a democratic govt shows no interest in the armed forces. the generals bring up a situation which suddenly gets the attention of the media. this starts a chain reaction. first was the 9/11 attacks and the december attacks on the parliament in india. this started the operation parakram. Defence deals were struck fastest during that time. especially with relation to Gorshkov and the russian satellite system,GLONASS.

Now, the recent chinese incursions. the army is playing it smart. One time they say its a threat and then they just backtrack saying it was no big deal. Such things messes up the populaces minds
suddenly , defence minister antony announces indian defence budget will be doubled. 

Its all in the game, with the media in the center.

do u remember cope india 2004, the US lost 90% of the engagements and they lobbied to the US congress about possible loss of air superiority and that the F-22 has to be inducted as soon as possible.

Its all in the game.


----------



## blain2

p2prada said:


> the media in india is powerful dude. Living under Mush has been painful for pak to know there is something called a media.
> 
> did u know that the CAG:Comptroller Auditor General of india started auditing all the defence related companies and international deals like maniacs to curb corruption. Even a missing rupee was reported in the media.



While I can commend the Indian media for their "independence", its outright stupid to disclose certain things. It does not even happen in the West (who claim themselves to be the champions of free media).

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## p2prada

Dude, keyser right now even u know that the F-7s and mirage-III are gonna be phased out in a few years. But, lets assume pak has already started phasing out the F-7s and Mirages even before the JF-17 is fully inducted.

Suddenly, reports come from china about possible failure of the navigation system in the JF due to problems related to chinese satellites. Now, these fighters have to be grounded for an indefinite period. 

will that not make news in pak


That happened to india and people know about it. thats it. there was no major conspiracy. only bad governance.


----------



## Keysersoze

p2prada said:


> Dude, keyser right now even u know that the F-7s and mirage-III are gonna be phased out in a few years. But, lets assume pak has already started phasing out the F-7s and Mirages even before the JF-17 is fully inducted.
> 
> Suddenly, reports come from china about possible failure of the navigation system in the JF due to problems related to chinese satellites. Now, these fighters have to be grounded for an indefinite period.
> 
> will that not make news in pak
> 
> 
> That happened to india and people know about it. thats it. there was no major conspiracy. only bad governance.



Well apart from the fact that the pilots would be sent and told to use the old fashioned methods of navigation I will tackle your assertion.

Even in the bastions of free speech there is this little entity called "National security" Now even with the freedom of information act there would have been some proviso for this. 
Military personnel would not speak about such matters due to this. (In fact during my service we were given strict instructions not to.) 

Therefore such information would have to be leaked from somewhere.


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## fatman17

^^^all is argument has nothing to do with the topic of the thread!


----------



## nitesh

Guys I feel like this thread is about "Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)". Can we get back to topic please


----------



## Muradk

*My fault I am sorry: Lets get back to the topic.*

Pakistan wouldn't mind this fighter but we already have all five fingers dipped in, We have to sort out JF-17 first than J-10 and then we might go for this fighter.
PAF will wait until we have atleast 2 sqd of JF-17 and then move forward.


----------



## p2prada

Keysersoze said:


> Well apart from the fact that the pilots would be sent and told to use the old fashioned methods of navigation I will tackle your assertion.



It was just a scenario to ground the JFs. If u have problems with that then just assume serious engine problems.



> Even in the bastions of free speech there is this little entity called "National security" Now even with the freedom of information act there would have been some proviso for this.
> Military personnel would not speak about such matters due to this. (In fact during my service we were given strict instructions not to.)
> 
> Therefore such information would have to be leaked from somewhere.



No chance, it was for all to see. I will repeat. The MRCA was thought of in 1998 and MKI along with it. Induction of the LCA was not believed to be possible in the near future because of the test sanctions. We needed GE engines.
MKI was delayed due to problems in russia and alos India needed to integrate Israeli systems on it which took 6 years.

Leak or no leak.....in a democracy the military cannot get things done without making a hue and cry about it. For example the recent reports that IN will not go for DHRUV........such a thing is demoralizing to the nation. But, if they keep it quiet the govt will force the Dhruv on them. but by making it public..........link

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


> As for helicopters, apart from mid-life upgrades of Kamov-28 and Sea King anti-submarine helicopters for Rs 600 crore and Rs 850 crore respectively,* Navy also plans to induct spanking new 10-tonne-class multi-role helicopters.*



This means the Navy will get their medium lift helis.

U also read about the IAF chief's Email to the defence min and the prime minister, it was leaked intentionally so that the LCA and MRCA deal would get top priority. Earlier there were reports that if india starts the MCA they wont go for the PAKFA. But after the leak, both projects are to be undertaken.
$5Billion for the PAKFA and $2billion for the MCA after the design concept is cleared.


U are a brit or a pak citizen from brit. Which means u either worked in a downsizing military(UK) or a totalitarian regime. So, keeping quiet is the best option when the military is being downsized or the only option in a dictatorship.


----------



## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> Where do you get this crapy info.
> 1 got shot by his wing man .
> 1 got hit by wild bore
> 1 crashed compressor stalled.
> 4 crashed technical failure.
> 1 Crash bird hit plane got on fire had to eject.




From the compressor stall, it came to my mind that the powerplant of the Flanker or say J-11 is such an excellent piece of engineering that it does not stall or cut out or degrade during any crazy maneuver imaginable by the pilot. 

All the impossible maneuvers of Flanker are possible due to his legendary powerplant. I imagine J-10 equipped with the same engine should be able to do all the crazy maneuvers without stalling of compressor.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

The PN has a plan to induct atlest 1 independent squadron of MR and is their any chance where J-11 could be upgraded to su-33 to meet PN role?
China also has plan to buy over 50 SU-33 and can PN benefit from this deal?


----------



## nitesh

23march said:


> The PN has a plan to induct atlest 1 independent squadron of MR and is their any chance where J-11 could be upgraded to su-33 to meet PN role?
> China also has plan to buy over 50 SU-33 and can PN benefit from this deal?



J-11 upgrading to SU-33? From where you get such ideas. For god's sake these are two different platform. SU-33 is a maritime bomber which can operate from an aircraft carrier. Does PN have/going to have an aircraft carrier?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

nitesh said:


> J-11 upgrading to SU-33? From where you get such ideas. For god's sake these are two different platform. SU-33 is a maritime bomber which can operate from an aircraft carrier. Does PN have/going to have an aircraft carrier?



You did not get my point. what i meant was to integrate SU-33 systems in J-11 as both platforms share some similarities making J-11 even more capable for maritime roles. 
The same kind of concept was proposed for pakistani AH-1 F cobra to integrate electronic warfare systems from AH-1Z Zullu cobra!


----------



## nitesh

23march said:


> You did not get my point. what i meant was to integrate SU-33 systems in J-11 as both platforms share some similarities making J-11 even more capable for maritime roles.
> The same kind of concept was proposed for pakistani AH-1 F cobra to integrate electronic warfare systems from AH-1Z Zullu cobra!



Well sorry, I had got you wrongly. Yes subsystems can be integrated. But haven't got through any news on this regard.


----------



## EagleEyes

Muradk said:


> *My fault I am sorry: Lets get back to the topic.*
> 
> Pakistan wouldn't mind this fighter but we already have all five fingers dipped in, We have to sort out JF-17 first than J-10 and then we might go for this fighter.
> PAF will wait until we have atleast 2 sqd of JF-17 and then move forward.



J-10
J-11
F-16
JF-17

Lethal combination i must say.


----------



## araz

23march said:


> The PN has a plan to induct atlest 1 independent squadron of MR and is their any chance where J-11 could be upgraded to su-33 to meet PN role?
> China also has plan to buy over 50 SU-33 and can PN benefit from this deal?



23 March.
Whereas the requirement of PN is there, do you not think that a platform that is already in the inventory of PAF could fulfil that role? Remember, that the dstance between India and Pakistan by sea is well withi nthe reach of all the platforms that are about to be inducted. . we also know that one of the problems of operations around the coast is corrosion, which is a current nuisance for PAF Mirage 5s. Idont think that this particular problem would be sorted out by Thunder, although the best performance appears to be F16s from this point of view. Will we buy more F16s for the navy??
If J10 gets a lot of composite component, its ferry range would easily cover this area. Can we go for this instead. Presumably JF17 next tranche will have more composites content. Would this make this plane more suitable for that environment?
I still think at least in the short term, it is unlikely that PAF would extend itself by adding another platform. Post 2015---- Who knows.
Araz


----------



## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> 23 March.
> Whereas the requirement of PN is there, do you not think that a platform that is already in the inventory of PAF could fulfil that role?* Remember, that the dstance between India and Pakistan by sea is well withi nthe reach of all the platforms that are about to be inducted.* . we also know that one of the problems of operations around the coast is corrosion, which is a current nuisance for PAF Mirage 5s. Idont think that this particular problem would be sorted out by Thunder, although the best performance appears to be F16s from this point of view. Will we buy more F16s for the navy??
> If J10 gets a lot of composite component, its ferry range would easily cover this area. Can we go for this instead. Presumably JF17 next tranche will have more composites content. Would this make this plane more suitable for that environment?
> I still think at least in the short term, it is unlikely that PAF would extend itself by adding another platform. Post 2015---- Who knows.
> Araz




I think that F-16s and J-10s can be deployed by PAF to serve along with a more capable naval MR fighter squadron in PN. As i have said earlier that J-11 equipped with Su-33 systems along with PAF F-16s and J-10 could make a deadly combination!


----------



## nitesh

23march said:


> I think that F-16s and J-10s can be deployed by PAF to serve along with a more capable naval MR fighter squadron in PN. As i have said earlier that J-11 equipped with Su-33 systems along with PAF F-16s and J-10 could make a deadly combination!



23 march when you are stressing so much on J-11 equipped with SU-33 systems can you please elaborate which systems you are referring to and how it will enhance the capability


----------



## shehbazi2001

nitesh said:


> J-11 upgrading to SU-33? From where you get such ideas. For god's sake these are two different platform. SU-33 is a maritime bomber which can operate from an aircraft carrier. Does PN have/going to have an aircraft carrier?



Nitesh I think you are wrong............what you had in ur mind was Su-34, not Su-33. Su-34 is a dedicated bomber primarily of maritime nature.............not the Su-33. Su-33 is primarily a carrier-based fighter like TOMCAT but is multi-role and can do other things too.

And thus J-11 can be used to derive an Su-33 copy.

For your point of carrier based fighter, many nations use carrier-based fighters on their land air bases like F/A-18 Hornet. Many countries use Hornet for their air forces on land bases while in USA its being not used by USAF. Rather US Navy and Marines (USMC) use it.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

I think PN can really benefit from a customized J-11 suited for Naval role. PN J-11 could inherent much of technology from Su-33.

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > PLA Navy Carrier Update and Euro-Naval Notes
*
"This may indicate that while purchasing some Su-33s, the PLAs real intention is to obtain the ability to produce their own version of the Su-33, to be based on the Su-27/J-11* now under co-production at the Shenyang Aircraft Company. Shenyang and KnAAPO, the maker of the PLAs Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, have been at loggerheads since 2004 over the Shenyangs desire to build a much-modified J-11 that would vastly reduce Russian content and potentially allow China to market their own version of yet another Russian fighter. KnAAPO and its parent company Sukhoi would like maximize their profits from future upgrade or modifications Shenyang may make to its J-11s. KnAAPO has also produced all of the Russian Navys Su-33s and would likely want to retain this business.

At Moscow in 2005 a Russian source was rather confident that China could not master all of the necessary modifications to turn their J-11s into carrier capable fighters like the Su-33. Compared to the basic Su-27, the Su-33 has a strengthened airframe covered with corrosion-resistant materials, much strengthened landing gear, the addition of "canard" lift devices and larger wing flaps to lower landing speed, folding wings, an aerial refueling probe, and a landing system that automatically controls the aircraft to land on the carrier deck.[5] The Su-33UB contains further aerodynamic refinements, uses more stealthy composite materials, and can carry a larger radar for attack missions. The Su-33UB has also been proposed for AWACS missions with the addition of a phased arrary radar atop the dorsal spine or under the fuselage. The Su-33UB demonstrated for the PLA in 2005 had also been modified with thrust-vectoring engines which greatly improve maneuverability.

But a year later it is possible to conclude that perhaps as far back as the late 1990s the PLA has been trying to develop an indigenous carrier capable J-11. Such a fighter may also benefit from Shenyangs indigenized land-based J-11 program, which will likely incorporate new 13,200 to 13,600kg thrust WS-10A "Taishan" turbofan engines, new advanced PLA-developed radar and PLA-developed PL-12 advanced air-to-air missiles and new precision-guided ground attack weapons. A navalized J-11 based on this program would be decidedly superior to the Su-33 now in service with the Russian Navy.



Shenyangs J-11 Ambitions: It is possible that for a number of years that Shenyang has been developing a carrier capable version of it J-11, benefiting from its program to create a new multi-role version of the J-11. Credit: Chinese Internet

To head off this program, and to appeal for future Russian Navy orders, Sukhoi is promoting upgrades for the Su-33. These will likely benefit from an upgraded version of the Su-35 that was marketed at the recent 2006 Zhuhai Airshow.[6] One major upgrade will be replacing the 12,500kg thrust AL-31F engines with 13,500kg thrust AL-31-F-M1 engines, which will allow for more rapid take-offs and larger weapons carriage. And while funding constraints have prevented radar and weapon upgrades, it is now possible to envision new Su-33s being equipped with new active electronic scanning array (AESA) radar like the Phazotron Zhuk-MFSE revealed in 2005. This radar can simultaneously track 30 aerial targets, two ground targets simultaneously, and locate naval targets out to 300km. Russian radar maker NIIP is also working on AESA radar. With additional development such phased array radar can themselves become weapons for delivering a range of electromagnetic attacks into enemy electronics. The Su-33UBs ability to carry a much larger active array makes more attractive for such electronic weapons. The Su-33 can also be expected to carry the full range of Russian weapons, such as the Vympel R-77 active-guided BVR AAM, the 300km range Novator KS-172, the Kh-31 supersonic anti-radar/anti-ship, the Raduga 300km Kh-59MK anti-ship missile, and soon, air launched version of the unique 200km range Novator 3M-54E anti-ship missile and the 300km range 3M-14E land-attack cruise missile.



Phazotron AESA Radar: Revealed at the 2005 Moscow Airshow, the Phazotron Zhuk MFE is now undergoing testing. Credit: RD Fisher

Should China instead opt to fund a maximum Russian upgrade for the Su-33 instead of developing their own version, the PLA Navy could begin limited carrier operations by the middle of the next decade with a fighter competitive to, if not superior in some respects, to the U.S. Navy Boeing F/A-18E/F fighter bomber. In terms of range and maneuverability, it appears that the larger Su-33 with lower wing loading and higher thrust engines, will dominate the F/A-18E/F.[7] This advantage will multiply should the new Su-33 use thrust-vectoring engines. Such platform advantages may be regarded as obsolete considering the U.S. use of long-range off-board sensors like AWACS, UAVs and even satellites, plus the ability of new Helmet Mounted Displays for reducing the advantages of platform maneuverability. However, the Russian and Chinese investment in counter AWACS and anti-satellite systems could revive requirements for platform superiority, especially when both sides have Helmet Display systems."


----------



## nitesh

shehbazi2001 said:


> Nitesh I think you are wrong............what you had in ur mind was Su-34, not Su-33. Su-34 is a dedicated bomber primarily of maritime nature.............not the Su-33. Su-33 is primarily a carrier-based fighter like TOMCAT but is multi-role and can do other things too.
> 
> And thus J-11 can be used to derive an Su-33 copy.
> 
> For your point of carrier based fighter, many nations use carrier-based fighters on their land air bases like F/A-18 Hornet. Many countries use Hornet for their air forces on land bases while in USA its being not used by USAF. Rather US Navy and Marines (USMC) use it.



Agree to you on certain terms, but SU-33 is definitely not a fighter. Regarding F/A-18 getting used in land bases. Dear there is a lot of difference between the plane used from land bases then operating from carriers. For example. There is a lot of structural modifications required to allow a plane to be able to land on an AC so that it can take the stress that is introduced by arrestor wires. So although the name may be same, but they are different.


----------



## shehbazi2001

araz said:


> 23 March.
> Whereas the requirement of PN is there, do you not think that a platform that is already in the inventory of PAF could fulfil that role? Remember, that the dstance between India and Pakistan by sea is well withi nthe reach of all the platforms that are about to be inducted. . we also know that one of the problems of operations around the coast is corrosion, which is a current nuisance for PAF Mirage 5s. Idont think that this particular problem would be sorted out by Thunder, although the best performance appears to be F16s from this point of view. Will we buy more F16s for the navy??
> If J10 gets a lot of composite component, its ferry range would easily cover this area. Can we go for this instead. Presumably JF17 next tranche will have more composites content. Would this make this plane more suitable for that environment?
> I still think at least in the short term, it is unlikely that PAF would extend itself by adding another platform. Post 2015---- Who knows.
> Araz



For the ferry range, a plane must carry almost all the three fuel tanks, leaving no or very little room for air-to-ground or anti-ship ordinance, keeping in view that at least 2 Sidewinders or other heat-seeker AAM shall also have to be carried.

I would rather like a fighter with more internal fuel. 

For F-16 in maritime role, I think Norway integrated its Penguin AShM with their F-16s for anti-shipping missions. An study should be done to see if Harpoon can be integrated with F-16 at its centreline or inner under-wing pylon.


----------



## shehbazi2001

nitesh said:


> Agree to you on certain terms, but SU-33 is definitely not a fighter. Regarding F/A-18 getting used in land bases. Dear there is a lot of difference between the plane used from land bases then operating from carriers. For example. There is a lot of structural modifications required to allow a plane to be able to land on an AC so that it can take the stress that is introduced by arrestor wires. So although the name may be same, but they are different.




Su-33 is like Mig-29K. Both are carrier-based fighters and both are derived from land-based fighters with obviously various modifications.

Sukhoi Su-33 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Sukhoi Su-33 (NATO reporting name 'Flanker-D') is carrier-based multi-role fighter aircraft produced by Russian firm Sukhoi beginning in 1982. It is a derivative of the Su-27 'Flanker' and was initially known as the Su-27K. The main difference from the Su-27 is that the Su-33 can operate from aircraft carriers. Unlike the Su-27, the Su-33 is capable of aerial refueling".

(What I like about Wikipedia is its perhaps best for quick info, in 1 minute)

Su-33 is mostly compared to F-14, meaning that its a carrier-capable fighter.

See another link,
Sukhoi Su-33


----------



## Myth_buster_1

shehbazi2001 said:


> Su-33 is mostly compared to F-14, meaning that its a carrier-capable fighter.
> 
> See another link,
> Sukhoi Su-33



Please read my previous post about upgraded J-11/su-33 vs FA-18 super hornet. Su-33 is in the same league of super hornet NOT F-14!


----------



## shehbazi2001

23march said:


> Please read my previous post about upgraded J-11/su-33 vs FA-18 super hornet. Su-33 is in the same league of super hornet NOT F-14!




Of course man, Flanker is the superior machine. Reference to F-14 was for identifying its role as carrier-based fighter, not for comparing their performances.

But I must tell you that Super Hornet is inferior to now-retired F-14D Super Tomcats. Super Tomcat was in the league of F-15C Eagle. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is even inferior to F/A-18C Hornet in flight performance domain except range and payload.

The maneuverability and top speed of -18C is better than -18E. The major advantage of Super Hornet is its range and increased payload at the cost of speed and agility. 

The countries (even India) that either bought or are considering Super Hornet is due to AESA radar that comes with it. AESA+AMRAAM is better for BVR combat but it may be beaten by Flanker in close-in fight for reduced maneuverability. Only the AIM-9X+HMS can make it better in dogfight, which is I think already underway.

One another misconception seems to be about F-15E Strike Eagle. In air superiority role, F-15C is better than F-15E Strike Eagle, as seen from flight performance point of view. (The same C and E story as of Hornet)


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Looking at the list of modifications done on the Su27 to convert it it Su33, there is a lot that Pakistan would not require because we would not be utilizing it for carrier based operations.

Using more and better composites to reduce corrosion and the radar signature would definitely be in the picture, but strengthening the airframe, strengthening landing gear, larger wing flaps (reduce landing speed), folding wings and an automatic landing system are all upgrades that would be of little use to us since we do not operate an ACC nor is one on the horizon.

So, composites, canards (though this would result in a larger radar sig. from what I have read) and definitely an improved radar. 

Given the time frame the PAF might be looking at in terms of inducting this (if it does) the above upgrades should not be an issue. Even the second block of the JF-17 is expected to utilize more composites and a better radar.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> So, composites, canards (though this would result in a larger radar sig. from what I have read) and definitely an improved radar.
> 
> Given the time frame the PAF might be looking at in terms of inducting this (if it does) the above upgrades should not be an issue. Even the second block of the JF-17 is expected to utilize more composites and a better radar.



Sir i have failed to understand how is RS-400 better radar? 

and i dont think that canards should be sacrificed for reduction of RCS because IAF fleet will already have longer range radars, such as AWACS, MKIs and new MRCAs and will be able to detect around the same distance as J-11 with or without canards.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

23march said:


> Sir i have failed to understand how is RS-400 better radar?
> 
> and i dont think that canards should be sacrificed for reduction of RCS because IAF fleet will already have longer range radars, such as AWACS, MKIs and new MRCAs and will be able to detect around the same distance as J-11 with or without canards.



Oh I don't mean that the future Thunder radar will be the choice for a potential Pakistani acquisition of the J-11 - just that Pakistan will probably shop around to get the best product it can for it, as it is for the Thunder, rather than settle for whatever the Su27 has currently.

On the canards - I don't have any clue as to how complicated and expensive the modification process could be - and you would have to balance that with any perceived advantages.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

CXgSjPgiSAU[/media] - Sukhoi MAKS 2005(Flanker Series Highlight Sound Fix)

Su-30MKI
*Su-27SK*
Su-30MKK
Su-32 Strike Flanker
*Su-33(Su-27K) Sea Flanker*
Su-47 Byerkut


----------



## Myth_buster_1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Oh I don't mean that the future Thunder radar will be the choice for a potential Pakistani acquisition of the J-11 - just that Pakistan will probably shop around to get the best product it can for it, as it is for the Thunder, rather than settle for whatever the Su27 has currently.
> 
> On the canards - I don't have any clue as to how complicated and expensive the modification process could be - and you would have to balance that with any perceived advantages.



Radar should not be a problem for china if it intends to revers engineer Su-33 or remodify J-11 to Su-33..





*Phazotron AESA Radar*


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## Myth_buster_1

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > The Flanker Fleet -The PLA's 'Big Stick'

----*Strategic Impact of the PLA Flanker*

The configuration of in service PLA Flankers should not be seen as the end state of fleet capability. With modest flying hours accrued, the fleet has a useful service life  driven by structural fatigue and corrosion  into the 2030-2040 period. The high fraction of titanium alloys will guarantee longevity. *By 2015 a good fraction of the fleet will be due for mid life upgrades.
*
The Flanker is a large and robust airframe, with good internal volume, and considerable capacity for avionics power and cooling. As its history to date demonstrates, technology insertion upgrades incur little difficulty. Therefore a PLA Flanker in 2015-2020 is likely to be significantly different in engine and avionics technology to current variants.

There are a number of candidate upgrades which can be predicted with a high level of confidence, given known development activity in Russian industry:

1. Supersonic cruise 40,000 lbf class AL-41F engines replacing the AL-31F. A derated AL-41F was being trailed in a Russian Su-27 in 2004.

2. Thrust vectoring (TVC) engine nozzles with 2D or 3D capability. Indian Su-30MKI is equipped with a TVC nozzle.

3. Digital Flight Control System (DFCS). Trialled in the 1990s Su-37 and later supplied to India, this technology will become standard for late build Flankers. The Su-37 included redundant sidestick controls for the pilot.

4. Canard foreplanes for enhanced high alpha agility. Production hardware on Su-33 and Su-30MKI.

5. An active phased array (AESA) fire control radar replacing the N-001 series. Russian industry has supplied the hybrid array N-011M to India, built AESA prototypes, and given availability of GaAs MMIC technology globally, will have no difficulty in manufacturing an AESA over the next decade.

6. A two color band FLIR/IRST sensor replacing the OLS-30, using QWIP imaging array technology. Russian industry has been negotiating to licence EU QWIP technology, which is based on mass production GaAs MMIC technology.

7. COTS based computer hardware running COTS based software. Given the use of this technology in the current N-001VEP upgrade, we can expect its use to extend across all systems over the next decade.

8. A Helmet Mounted Display with FLIR projection capability. Such an upgrade was being discussed some years ago, and would be easily accommodated with a FLIR/IRST sensor.

9. Full glass cockpit based on digital technology. Given the current delivery of first generation glass cockpits in Su-30MK and Su-27SKM, this is a natural progression.

10. Heatseeking and anti radiation variants of the R-77 Amraamski, and extended range ramjet powered variants of the R-77. All are in advanced development and actively being marketed.

11. Advanced digital variants of the R-73/74 Archer close-in air to air missile. These have been actively marketed.

12. AWACS killer long range missiles in the 160 to 200 nautical mile range category. The R-37/AA-X-13 Arrow remains in development for the Su-35, the R-172 was recently reported as the subject of licence negotiations with India. Su-35 upgrade marketing literature depicts the use of such missiles.

13. Cruise missiles for standoff attacks. China acquired Kh-55SM/AS-15 Kent cruise missiles from the Ukraine, and is manufacturing indigenous designs.

14. Advanced jam resistant fighter to fighter and fighter to AWACS datalinks and networks. India used the Russian TKS-2 datalink to effect in the Cope India exercise against the F-15C. Further evolution of protocol software will see this technology grow to match current US capabilities.

15. Radar absorbent materials for radar observables reduction. Numerous Russian unclassified papers detail a range of technologies for surface wave suppression and edge signature reduction, with a specific aim of reducing legacy aircraft observables.

16. Aerial refuelling probes, pylon plumbing for drop tanks, and buddy refuelling stores. Production hardware available off the shelf. 

These technologies will appear over the next decade on PLA Flankers, either as upgrades or as part of new build aircraft. It is a 'when' question rather than an 'if' question, and any analytical predictions which devalue the PLA Flanker on the basis of the limitations of the early build Su-27SK/J-11 deny the reality that Russian industry and the PLA are following the US pattern of ongoing continuous technology insertion.

It is illustrative to compare a notional 'Flanker-2015' configuration, equipped with these upgrades, against representative aircraft operated by the US or US aligned Pacrim nations.

A) Boeing F-15 Eagle variants (Air Force, Japan, South Korea, Singapore). All will be matched or incrementally outclassed by the 'Flanker-2015'. While the latest AESA equipped F-15SG currently outclasses in service Su-27/30 by virtue of the AESA and newer avionics, this gap vanishes. In range payload, supersonic and agility performance, the 'Flanker-2015' outclasses the F-15.

B) Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (Navy/Marines). The AESA equipped F/A-18E/F has 4,000 lb more internal fuel over the F/A-18C, more pylons and better avionics, but retains the basic agility and performance limitations of the F/A-18C. It will be outclassed by the 'Flanker-2015' in all cardinal parameters, especially payload range. The author flew an F/A-18F in 2001, the aircraft being equipped with the APG-73 radar and then latest block of the DFCS software. The aircraft exhibited excellent high alpha manoeuvre performance and handling, competitive against reported Su-27 capabilities. Principal limitations observed were in clean supersonic acceleration, limited by the wing design, and radar footprint, limited by power aperture performance.

C) LM Joint Strike Fighter (Australia). The JSF will be outclassed in all cardinal parameters by the 'Flanker-2015'. The only clear advantage the JSF will hold will be in observables, with the caveat that Flanker support by lower band AWACS and GCI radars, and good FLIR/IRST capabilities will significantly narrow any margin of survivability produced by the JSF's reduced observables. While the JSF is being marketed as a Very Low Observable (VLO) design, its actual design indicates that at best it has potential for VLO performance in the forward hemisphere, and at best Low Observable capability in the aft hemisphere. The serrated circular engine nozzle is band limited in effect, and the absence of canopy frame serrations suggests that VLO performance in the forward hemisphere is borderline at best.------


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## nitesh

shehbazi2001 said:


> Su-33 is like Mig-29K. Both are carrier-based fighters and both are derived from land-based fighters with obviously various modifications.
> 
> Sukhoi Su-33 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "The Sukhoi Su-33 (NATO reporting name 'Flanker-D') is carrier-based multi-role fighter aircraft produced by Russian firm Sukhoi beginning in 1982. It is a derivative of the Su-27 'Flanker' and was initially known as the Su-27K. The main difference from the Su-27 is that the Su-33 can operate from aircraft carriers. Unlike the Su-27, the Su-33 is capable of aerial refueling".
> 
> (What I like about Wikipedia is its perhaps best for quick info, in 1 minute)
> 
> Su-33 is mostly compared to F-14, meaning that its a carrier-capable fighter.
> 
> See another link,
> Sukhoi Su-33


oops sorry, my mistake.


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## TOPGUN

Guy's how offical is this news does anyone know our its just a up in the air type thing ? and if so if we are offered this aircraft should we get some? your views please


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## Myth_buster_1

TOPGUN said:


> Guy's how offical is this news does anyone know our its just a up in the air type thing ? and if so if we are offered this aircraft should we get some? your views please



PN has a plan to induct one squadron of multi role combat aircraft in its limited fixed wing fleet, and considering low prise tag of J-11 and Chinese upgrading plan for J-11 to Su-33 sea flanker i think J-11 is not a bad choice for PN.


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Guy's how offical is this news does anyone know our its just a up in the air type thing ? and if so if we are offered this aircraft should we get some? your views please



suppose if it has been offered, it would be pretty complicated to induct 3 different weapons platforms into the PAF simultaneously. i personally think all PAF efforts and focus is on the induction of the JF-17 Thunder whilst negotiations / discussions are ongoing about the purchase of the F-20. PAF will first ensure that the JF-17 project comes on-line before diverting energies on the F-20. dont forget the PAF is already involved in the F-16 MLU program which is underway and preparing to induct the F-16C/D blk 52s. there is at the moment no official indications on the offer of the J-11. so the order of induction, time-frames and strength could be.

1. F-16MLU - 2008-10 - 60 (with chances of additional EDA stocks - 18)
2. JF-17 - 2008-14 - 150 (1st contract quantities)(2nd contract qtys - 100)
3. F-16C/D blk 52 - 2009-10 - 18
4. F-20 - 2011 - 38
5. J-11 (maybe) - 2013 - ?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

fatman17 said:


> suppose if it has been offered, it would be pretty complicated to induct 3 different weapons platforms into the PAF simultaneously. i personally think all PAF efforts and focus is on the induction of the JF-17 Thunder whilst negotiations / discussions are ongoing about the purchase of the F-20. PAF will first ensure that the JF-17 project comes on-line before diverting energies on the F-20. dont forget the PAF is already involved in the F-16 MLU program which is underway and preparing to induct the F-16C/D blk 52s. there is at the moment no official indications on the offer of the J-11. so the order of induction, time-frames and strength could be.
> 
> 1. F-16MLU - 2008-10 - 60 (with chances of additional EDA stocks - 18)
> 2. JF-17 - 2008-14 - 150 (1st contract quantities)(2nd contract qtys - 100)
> 3. F-16C/D blk 52 - 2009-10 - 18
> 4. F-20 - 2011 - 38
> 5. J-11 (maybe) - 2013 - ?



Interesting outline Fatman - a possible 400 fighter fleet and the additional 5 AEW&C and possible Sino-Pak AWACS by 2015 - 2020. 

A very potent one at that, if the upgrades on the JF-17 and developments on the FC-20, and some related weapons systems remain on track.


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## Alex_2008

China will always behind Pakistan. Indians will be quite upset if PAF get J-11.


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## Super Falcon

any official statement do u guys have that china offered pak these jets


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## IceCold

Alex_2008 said:


> China will always behind Pakistan. Indians will be quite upset if PAF get J-11.



Well India gets upset even if Pakistan decides to buy a needle from anywhere around the world.


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## Vinod2070

IceCold said:


> Well India gets upset even if Pakistan decides to buy a needle from anywhere around the world.



Not if the needle is used to sew clothes and not to needle the Kashmiris.


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## fatman17

Vinod2070 said:


> Not if the needle is used to sew clothes and not to needle the Kashmiris.



good one indeed!


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## TOPGUN

Guys i usually go on Wikipedia website for stuff research etc anyhow so i also check upon Pakistan Airforce there as well for updates . Today i saw the section in there for future plans for PAF and saw the wish list which includes 120-Shenyang J-11 B on the wish list so i guess something is in works it might be old news to some but thought i share it it wasnt there a few days ago!! i hope we get them soon.


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## JK!

TOPGUN said:


> Guys i usually go on Wikipedia website for stuff research etc anyhow so i also check upon Pakistan Airforce there as well for updates . Today i saw the section in there for future plans for PAF and saw the wish list which includes 120-Shenyang J-11 B on the wish list so i guess something is in works it might be old news to some but thought i share it it wasnt there a few days ago!! i hope we get them soon.



Right that means its probably not true.

Wikipedia articles can be edited by anyone and in the Pakistan armed forces section people tend to add wishlists which 120 J11s probably is.


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## Myth_buster_1

TOPGUN said:


> Guys i usually go on Wikipedia website for stuff research etc anyhow so i also check upon Pakistan Airforce there as well for updates . Today i saw the section in there for future plans for PAF and saw the wish list which includes 120-Shenyang J-11 B on the wish list so i guess something is in works it might be old news to some but thought i share it it wasnt there a few days ago!! i hope we get them soon.



 easy boy.. wakopedia is not a official website... and plus the number is not realistic..


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## TOPGUN

ALRIGHT BOY GOT IT BOY!!


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## jawad munir

Can anyone provide the details of the news.


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## Myth_buster_1

jawad munir said:


> Can anyone provide the details of the news.



read the first post.. detailed analysis ..


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## Super Falcon

i also saw this news in news paper is that true. because some time newspapers put news on newspapers without any real info


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## TOPGUN

Guys any news on the j-11's??


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## xinhui

what type of news are you looking for?

J-11 is in service with the 1st regt, 1st PLAAF air division, Shangyang MR and three more regiments, or are you referring to the J-11Mod which is equipped with Chinese weapons and engine.


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## TOPGUN

Yes and i mean wasn't there a rumor about China offering some to PAK any news on that??


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## xinhui

no, I think it is just a dream suggested by fan-boys. However, I really don't think J-11 will fit into Pakistan AF's current defensive requirements now with all those rumored additions.


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## Myth_buster_1

xinhui said:


> no, I think it is just a dream suggested by fan-boys. However, I really don't think J-11 will fit into Pakistan AF's current defensive requirements now with all those rumored additions.



at the moment its a dream but you know F-16s are in danger again (possible sanctions) due to political tense situation between the two countries plus obama and mccain are even eager to send troops in pakistan! 
so in that case PAF has to find another platform and most likely new version of J-11s??

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## IceCold

xinhui said:


> no, I think it is just a dream suggested by fan-boys. However, I really don't think J-11 will fit into Pakistan AF's current defensive requirements now with all those rumored additions.



Why do you think it does not fit into PAFs equation? Now i know we are not going for the J-11b because it seems that the J-10 is currently dancing on the minds of our top brass, but realistically speaking J-11 can serve better then the J-10 giving us the long range deep strike capability within the enemy territory that we lack currently.


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## xinhui

> but realistically speaking J-11 can serve better then the J-10 giving us the long range deep strike capability within the enemy territory that we lack currently.



without ECM/fighter cover and good offensive C4I, you are not going to go too far.....and how is much India military's combat capabilities you can degrade with limited sorties? Does it justify the investment?

Not many AF in the world can be geared toward both O and D at the same time and the way to counter India's Cold Start doctrine is to delay, isolate and destroy. For that Pakistan, it will need air cover more then deep air strike. Remember, when (and if) the Indian attacks, they will be mobile, fast and with multiple axis of advance, so Pakistan would really really have to have good real time Intel before it put together a good deep strike package and that type of package is extremely expensive.

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## Contrarian

xinhui said:


> without ECM/fighter cover and good offensive C4I, you are not going to go too far.....and how is much India military's combat capabilities you can degrade with limited sorties? Does it justify the investment?
> 
> Not many AF in the world can be geared toward both O and D at the same time and the *way to counter India's Cold Start doctrine is to delay, isolate and destroy.* For that Pakistan, it will _need air cover more then deep air strike_. Remember, when (and if) the Indian attacks, they will be mobile, fast and with multiple axis of advance, so Pakistan would really really have to have good real time Intel before it put together a good deep strike package and that type of package is extremely expensive.



Your analysis is spot on mate!


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## IceCold

xinhui said:


> without ECM/fighter cover and good offensive C4I, you are not going to go too far.....and how is much India military's combat capabilities you can degrade with limited sorties? Does it justify the investment?
> 
> Not many AF in the world can be geared toward both O and D at the same time and the way to counter India's Cold Start doctrine is to delay, isolate and destroy. For that Pakistan, it will need air cover more then deep air strike. Remember, when (and if) the Indian attacks, they will be mobile, fast and with multiple axis of advance, so Pakistan would really really have to have good real time Intel before it put together a good deep strike package and that type of package is extremely expensive.



The doctrine of Pakistani forces is offensive defensive. Which means that while defending a territory, PAF will go offensive. Take out any past history and you will see PAF offensive sorties. Also no airforce can just rely on mere defensive side. India's cold start doctrine is to start a limited scale conflict, inflict maxmize damage and go home back. My question is what makes them or you think it will remain limited? From Pakistans point of view, we have every reason to prolong the conflict maybe turn it into a full fledge war.
Also do not forget that with the induction of AWACS into PAF, ECM capabilites will be inducted and its not about degrading war waging capabilites, its about inflicting maximum damage to them, and it does not matter if that damage occurs with limited or unlimited sorties.

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## bernard

IceCold said:


> The doctrine of Pakistani forces is offensive defensive. Which means that while defending a territory, PAF will go offensive. Take out any past history and you will see PAF offensive sorties. Also no airforce can just rely on mere defensive side. India's cold start doctrine is to start a limited scale conflict, inflict maxmize damage and go home back. My question is what makes them or you think it will remain limited? From Pakistans point of view, we have every reason to prolong the conflict maybe turn it into a full fledge war.
> Also do not forget that with the induction of AWACS into PAF, ECM capabilites will be inducted and its not about degrading war waging capabilites, its about inflicting maximum damage to them, and it does not matter if that damage occurs with limited or unlimited sorties.


which aircraft in paf will be used offensive/defensive,they should be prepared in advance for that role...


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## Kharian_Beast

How well does the J11 perform A2G? If it is a reliable A2G platform I personally think we wouldn't need more than a squadron, let them be our deep strike nuclear delivery platform. Imagine the fear this aircraft would put in the enemy. If it lacks A2G then I say let's pass on it. Aren't these usually flown off a carrier in China?


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## Jliu

xinhui said:


> without ECM/fighter cover and good offensive C4I, you are not going to go too far.....and how is much India military's combat capabilities you can degrade with limited sorties? Does it justify the investment?
> 
> Not many AF in the world can be geared toward both O and D at the same time and the way to counter India's Cold Start doctrine is to delay, isolate and destroy. For that Pakistan, it will need air cover more then deep air strike. Remember, when (and if) the Indian attacks, they will be mobile, fast and with multiple axis of advance, so Pakistan would really really have to have good real time Intel before it put together a good deep strike package and that type of package is extremely expensive.



Superb two para analysis mate. 

Speaking strategically "Cold Start" is geared towards crippling Pakistan's warfighting and operational capabilities-*not eliminating the country as a going concern*.



> The doctrine of Pakistani forces is offensive defensive. Which means that while defending a territory, PAF will go offensive. Take out any past history and you will see PAF offensive sorties. Also no airforce can just rely on mere defensive side. India's cold start doctrine is to start a limited scale conflict, inflict maxmize damage and go home back. My question is what makes them or you think it will remain limited? From Pakistans point of view, we have every reason to prolong the conflict maybe turn it into a full fledge war.



In theory, yes. But it all depends on the intensity, duration and tempo of the conflict. These variables cannot in normal peacetime conditions be calcuted. There is also an unspoken truth that Pakistan cannot "win" a full fledged conflict with India. At best both countries would lie in a smouldering nuclear ruin.



> Also do not forget that with the induction of AWACS into PAF, ECM capabilites will be inducted and its not about degrading war waging capabilites, its about inflicting maximum damage to them, and it does not matter if that damage occurs with limited or unlimited sorties.



So what does 5-6 Erieye platforms or Y-8 mean to the warfighter? Or to the policymaker given warning of Indian mobilisation +72hrs and FCR +48hrs? 

Unless you are prepared to intitiate pre-emptive strike or interdiction *without a doubt that hostile intent is intended* you will be left at an immense strategic disadvantage a la' Poland, 1939 as the weaker party facing a stronger adversary.

For the record the Erieye is purely an AEW(C) platform offering limited C2BM as opposed to a pure AWACs platform such as the E3. Of the Y-8 I am unsure as yet.


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## ejaz007

J-11Abasically is an air superiority fighter while J-11B is a multi role aircraft with air to ground capability. Its a fine fighter indeed however It is not on the wish list of PAF at the moment. Presently PAF is planning to induct following fighters:

1. JF-17
2. F-16 C/D
3. J-10
4. FC-20


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## Kharian_Beast

I personally don't like the J10, and the FC20 is only reality on paper, unless I'm mistaken. There are gaps in the wishlist!!!


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## ejaz007

There are no gaps in the wishlist except FC-20 which is not yet flying. Every thing else is worked out by PAF. Have a look at this short video.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/60years_Documentary/Tomorows_PAF.wmv

PAF shall be evaluating FC-20 as soon as it is in the air.


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## bernard

Jliu said:


> Superb two para analysis mate.
> 
> Speaking strategically "Cold Start" is geared towards crippling Pakistan's warfighting and operational capabilities-*not eliminating the country as a going concern*.
> 
> 
> 
> In theory, yes. But it all depends on the intensity, duration and tempo of the conflict. These variables cannot in normal peacetime conditions be calcuted. There is also an unspoken truth that Pakistan cannot "win" a full fledged conflict with India. At best both countries would lie in a smouldering nuclear ruin.
> 
> 
> 
> So what does 5-6 Erieye platforms or Y-8 mean to the warfighter? Or to the policymaker given warning of Indian mobilisation +72hrs and FCR +48hrs?
> 
> Unless you are prepared to intitiate pre-emptive strike or interdiction *without a doubt that hostile intent is intended* you will be left at an immense strategic disadvantage a la' Poland, 1939 as the weaker party facing a stronger adversary.
> 
> For the record the Erieye is purely an AEW(C) platform offering limited C2BM as opposed to a pure AWACs platform such as the E3. Of the Y-8 I am unsure as yet.


 what is 'COLD START' doctrine of IAF


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## IceCold

Jliu said:


> In theory, yes. But it all depends on the intensity, duration and tempo of the conflict. These variables cannot in normal peacetime conditions be calcuted. *There is also an unspoken truth that Pakistan cannot "win" a full fledged conflict with India*. At best both countries would lie in a smouldering nuclear ruin.



This is your opinion and i strongly differ from that.





> Unless you are prepared to intitiate pre-emptive strike or interdiction *without a doubt that hostile intent is intended* you will be left at an immense strategic disadvantage a la' Poland, 1939 as the weaker party facing a stronger adversary.



As far as the pre-emptive strikes are concerned, well they certainly are not out of the context and history proves it.



> For the record the Erieye is purely an AEW(C) platform offering limited C2BM as opposed to a pure AWACs platform such as the E3. Of the Y-8 I am unsure as yet.



I think enough debate is done on this particular issue about it being an AWAC or AEW and the intended role it will serve in the PAF. Murad posts can be checked in this regard. I dont think i need to go any further into its details in this particular thread.

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## fatman17

there is no mention of the J-11 in the interview given by PAF-ACM to AFM and DAWN. so why do we keep on harping on this subject.
The FC-20 is still a works-in-progress but at least the PAF has finalised its requirements for this platform - they just need to be approved and then the negotiations with the suppliers will start but not before 2010 in my opinion.


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> there is no mention of the J-11 in the interview given by PAF-ACM to AFM and DAWN. so why do we keep on harping on this subject.
> The FC-20 is still a works-in-progress but at least the PAF has finalised its requirements for this platform - they just need to be approved and then the negotiations with the suppliers will start but not before 2010 in my opinion.



Well i hope we decide to get it if it really has been offered to us?


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## TOPGUN

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfFpDJNJVas


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## Kumar

Did PAF have it currently or this youtube video is just a promo ?


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## TOPGUN

No its just a Chinesse AF video on j-11 sir!


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## Imran Khan

its 100&#37; posible we get this bird if usa make any drama in f-16 deal

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## TOPGUN

i sure hope so Imran sir lets face it we would need it if the drama comes !!!


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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> i sure hope so Imran sir lets face it we would need it if the drama comes !!!



now they know very well world in 80s and world in 2008 is difrent 

this not time for west or east block its trade time every one needs to sale there pruducts.only usa is on state who have these kind of drama seen billl go congress bill go to presedent bill go to house BS and bill some times go to hell.whole world now thirsty of dollers give money and take what ever you need

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## batmannow

imran khan said:


> now they know very well world in 80s and world in 2008 is difrent
> 
> this not time for west or east block its trade time every one needs to sale there pruducts.only usa is on state who have these kind of drama seen billl go congress bill go to presedent bill go to house BS and bill some times go to hell.whole world now thirsty of dollers give money and take what ever you need



i guss, we shouldnt waste our time even thinking of IRON EAGLE, we have enough of these brids, we have to move forward, the chances are that OBAMMA been elected as new president of USA .
OBAMMA sitting in white house, i dont see a single screw been send to pakistan in any way.
it would be better we should give up, our hopes for more of these brids, it would be better to have 60 of J-11 s in PAF inventry with modifications.
as soon as posible?

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## Imran Khan

batmannow said:


> i guss, we shouldnt waste our time even thinking of IRON EAGLE, we have enough of these brids, we have to move forward, the chances are that OBAMMA been elected as new president of USA .
> OBAMMA sitting in white house, i dont see a single screw been send to pakistan in any way.
> it would be better we should give up, our hopes for more of these brids, it would be better to have 60 of J-11 s in PAF inventry with modifications.
> as soon as posible?



man you know very well person wich is out of white hous and inside white house think much difrent when he inter he know very well whats pkistan is he just now want to happy his doners.whats OBAMA or SHUBAMA we seen much more like this birds.you will see who can't he stop parts to pakistan after a breefing from CIA.


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## HAIDER

imran khan said:


> its 100% posible we get this bird if usa make any drama in f-16 deal


Drama going to be happened if Obama elected....expect upgrade sanctions ....

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## batmannow

imran khan said:


> man you know very well person wich is out of white hous and inside white house think much difrent when he inter he know very well whats pkistan is he just now want to happy his doners.whats OBAMA or SHUBAMA we seen much more like this birds.you will see who can't he stop parts to pakistan after a breefing from CIA.



Dear colonel khan; sir
I realy dont, want to live in the dream world, its time to wake up!
prepare for worst, attack like a tiger , hide like wolf, and die like a muslim!
thats it , for us i guss?
for this , we just need , the best thing we can get,it doesnt means the besttest one, that's it.
MOVIES like top gun, were made for them not for us! right?


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## TOPGUN

Haha yea !! u are right mr . batmannow!!

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## Imran Khan

HAIDER said:


> Drama going to be happened if Obama elected....expect upgrade sanctions ....



we are ready for new partners in east they offers for these jets not we reqest .doors are open for pakistan select pay and get any were in world without US


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## Imran Khan

> I realy dont, want to live in the dream world, its time to wake up!
> prepare for worst, attack like a tiger , hide like wolf, and die like a muslim!
> thats it , for us i guss?
> for this , we just need , the best thing we can get,it doesnt means the besttest one, that's it.



we are talking for new gets in paf for future there is no dream my brother we will get these from any were of world




> MOVIES like top gun, were made for them not for us! right?



what abut MOVES from 10 years i see only three films what a hell we follow now film i will never see any indian film from 1999 and only three english films i see in 10 years. last film i seen from india was BORDER

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## IceCold

J-11b will be a good option for the PAF but the question is are we going for it? well no i guess seems to be the right answer beacause PAF seems to be happy with what it is going for (F-16s, JF-17, FC-20) however if F-16 gets out of the equation maybe then we can look back at China for the J-11.


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## muse

If it is true that Pakistan are offered J11, and PAF are not so interested in it, why not 5 Squadrons of J11 for Pak naval aviation. Pak navy needs a potent F/A aircraft with long legs to serve as a deterrent and allow genuine capablity in hostilities.

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## Imran Khan

> why not 5 Squadrons of J11 for Pak naval aviation.



why not 7 sqwardons of jf-17 with bvrs.

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## Myth_buster_1

Ok we have had enough of these fanboys comments about 10 squadron of J-11 etc and its about time we get realistic here.. 
a J-11B of curse customized version of PAF may cost at least 35-40 million dollars. in that money PAF can get 2-3 F-16 MLUed and still will have better air-to-air missile package!


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## Black Stone

23march said:


> Ok we have had enough of these fanboys comments about 10 squadron of J-11 etc and its about time we get realistic here..
> a J-11B of curse customized version of PAF may cost at least 35-40 million dollars. in that money PAF can get 2-3 F-16 MLUed and still will have better air-to-air missile package!



Fanboys? are people on this forum starting to use my words or do I have fans on this forum?. 

The J-11 seems like a good plane for Pakistan to procure. Do you think you guys would get ToT aswell?.


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## Imran Khan

> Fanboys? are people on this forum starting to use my words or do I have fans on this forum?.



i will be your fan if you change your avater



> Do you think you guys would get ToT aswell?.



why TOT man its already a copy of su-27


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## Black Stone

imran khan said:


> i will be your fan if you change your avater


What is wrong with my avatar?. 


> why TOT man its already a copy of su-27



The beginning batch are copies, but later the Chinese has included more indigenous parts and systems. Eventually, this is making it a more Chinese customized version of the flanker.

Also, even if it is a copy, do you think you can get ToT from the Russians?.

Also, the Chinese has a habit of reverse-engineering an improved version of the original product. That's why the Russians are annoyed.

The Russians got into a tantrum when there was news that the J-11 might be exported.


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## Myth_buster_1

Black Stone said:


> Fanboys? are people on this forum starting to use my words or do I have fans on this forum?.
> 
> The J-11 seems like a good plane for Pakistan to procure. Do you think you guys would get ToT aswell?.



Nice try but "fanboy" is very new common term in just about any defence forums i actually got it from aussi member here in defence.pk
as for J-11. dont forget chinese have already supplied us 2 russian origin fighters F-6 aka Mig-19 and F-7 aka Mig-21. delivery of new Mi-17 choppers and RD-93 and now they have offered defence assistance in WOT so the Pak-russ defence cooperation future looks bright.


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## Imran Khan

> delivery of new Mi-17 choppers and RD-93 and now they have offered defence assistance in WOT.



they offers us but pakistan never reply and if we reply our best firend indian cry much more. then we will be back our intrest


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## Myth_buster_1

imran khan said:


> they offers us but pakistan never reply and if we reply our best firend indian cry much more. then we will be back our intrest



huh? what do you mean pakistan did not reply?


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## Imran Khan

23march said:


> huh? what do you mean pakistan did not reply?


sir you forget same day when US presedent was in india for nukes deal RUSSIAN defence mister was in pakistan .he offers us much more but we will never reply because we hope bush will give us same like india. then we weste both chances


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## Imran Khan

were is reply



MOSCOW, July 11. (PTI): Russia's top battle tank plant today signed a production deal with Pakistan, a day after the country's Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri held talks with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov. 

The 'tank production' deal between Uralvagonzavod plant and Islamabad was signed on the sidelines of "UralArmsExpo" exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in the Sverdlovsk region, Itar-Tass reported quoting an official of local defence industries. 

"We can say that tank-production cotracts between Uralvagonzavod and Pakistan have been clinched," Director of the union of regionl defence industry Viktor Batuyev was quoted as saying by the agency without giving any details. 

After his talks with Lavrov yesterday, Kasuri said both Moscow and Islamabad had agreed to ugrade their bilateral relations, while the Russian Foreign Minister said no concrete defence cooperation plans were discussed by them. 

Earlier Nizhny Tagil- based Uralvagonzavod - world's largest tank production facility - has supplied over 300 T-90S main battle tanks to India to restore the imbalance created by the sale of T-80UD tanks to Pakistan by Ukraine

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## batmannow

23march said:


> Ok we have had enough of these fanboys comments about 10 squadron of J-11 etc and its about time we get realistic here..
> a J-11B of curse customized version of PAF may cost at least 35-40 million dollars. in that money PAF can get 2-3 F-16 MLUed and still will have better air-to-air missile package!



Dear 23march; sir
its, the crunnt changing situation, in which we dont have any chance of getting a screw of F-16s from USA , the days of F-16's are over, plz realize this for god sake!
& if we try to make fast aproch in getting the quick replacements of , f-16s THE ONLY platform we can get is , J-11b.
US army cheif is visting , siachein FRONT lines, & WE STILL DISCUSSING F-16s, i guss, next US president , no matter, who ever been elected, surly would be lunching air strikes on the name to kill OSAMA BIN LADEN in pakistani lands to show americans of thier seriousness about the subject of terrorism.
what thn, you think still USA would be giving us, f-16s?

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## Imran Khan

also what happens to pakistan never reply them as a hot hands

Russia offers defence help to Pakistan 
Malaysia Sun
Friday 26th September, 2008 



Pakistani Foreign Minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, has revealed that Russia has said it would be willing to provide defence equipment to Pakistan to help it fight terror.

Qureshi, after meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov, on the sidelines of the ongoing 63rd United Nations General Assembly session in New York, said: "Russia is willing to provide equipment to bolster Pakistan's counter-terrorism capabilities. It is also keen to enhance bilateral relations with Pakistan."

He said: "Pakistan and Russia can co-operate in several sectors, including energy, communications, gas pipeline projects and steel production." 

He also said significant other political developments were taking place between Pakistan and Russia.

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## jupiter2007

imran khan said:


> also what happens to pakistan never reply them as a hot hands
> 
> Russia offers defence help to Pakistan
> Malaysia Sun
> Friday 26th September, 2008
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Foreign Minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, has revealed that Russia has said it would be willing to provide defence equipment to Pakistan to help it fight terror.
> 
> Qureshi, after meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov, on the Tsidelines of the ongoing 63rd United Nations General Assembly session in New York, said: "Russia is willing to provide equipment to bolster Pakistan's counter-terrorism capabilities. It is also keen to enhance bilateral relations with Pakistan."
> 
> He said: "Pakistan and Russia can co-operate in several sectors, including energy, communications, gas pipeline projects and steel production."
> 
> He also said significant other political developments were taking place between Pakistan and Russia.



Talk is cheap. I saw a similar article back in 2004 but it was total BS.

Russia can talk all they want but they are not going to sell things that Pakistan wants. 
Here is what Pakistan is looking for from Russian:
Transport and attack helicopter (MI-17 & Mi-24)
TOT for Engine for JF-17 
Transport/Air refueling Plane.
Air defense Radar, Short/Medium/Large range SAM (S-300P/PMU-1/2/3 & S-300V), SA-12 /Shlem Radar system.
Engine/Transmission TOT for Tanks AL-Khalid II
Russian BVR /R-27/R-77 / speculating....possibly Joint production of BVR Missile.


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## EagleEyes

> Russian BVR /R-27/R-77 / speculating....possibly Joint production of BVR Missile.



SD-10 is better than what the Russians have to offer.

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## Myth_buster_1

jupiter2007 said:


> Talk is cheap. I saw a similar article back in 2004 but it was total BS.
> 
> Russia can talk all they want but they are not going to sell things that Pakistan wants.
> Here is what Pakistan is looking for from Russian:
> Transport and attack helicopter (MI-17 & Mi-24)
> TOT for Engine for JF-17
> Transport/Air refueling Plane.
> Air defense Radar, Short/Medium/Large range SAM (S-300P/PMU-1/2/3 & S-300V), SA-12 /Shlem Radar system.
> Engine/Transmission TOT for Tanks AL-Khalid II
> Russian BVR /R-27/R-77 / speculating....possibly Joint production of BVR Missile.



-Russia has already sold Mi-17s to PAK
PAK is negotiating AH-1 super cobra AH-64 T-129 and if talks fails for any of them PA may look at more expensive chinese stealth chopper and if thats too expensive then i think they will head for russian chopper as last option.
-PAF is already getting IL-78 from ukraine and one is on its way.
-negotiating Chinese FT-2000 
-why do we need russian engine for al-khalid II when we dont even know what AK-2 is. 
-PAF is getting SD-10 AMRAAM MICA R-darter AIM-9M so no point for outdated r-27 and r-77.


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## muse

Imran Khan




> why not 7 sqwardons of jf-17 with bvrs.



JF-17 have neither the payload nor the "long legs" = range


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## Munir

muse said:


> Imran Khan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 have neither the payload nor the "long legs" = range



I do not think that it is just a point defence... It will have IFR and even without that it has a few hundred kilometers depth to protect. It will be located at the forward bases and will serve as normal bvr cap and if needed surgical strike.

I am looking forward where the conclusions are based on...

I have copied some data and though it is not comparable due to a2g or a2a setup but still shows the ferry range... Does that difference make one a point defence fighter? I do not think so. And about ordnance. Yo do not risk a plane and a pilot these days. There enough alternatives. Besides that The f16 did have more load but it was unguided. Just check the guided orndnance these days... Not much different compared with JF17.


f16
Combat radius: 340 NM (295 mi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks

Jf17
Combat radius: 1,352 km (890 nmi, 1,025 mi)
Ferry range: 3,500 km[43] (2,100 mi)


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## General Fujita

I see what your saying bro, but that is the f-16 block 30 specs


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## muse

Why not offer the payload and range of the J11, after all we were talking about the J11 and you throw in numbers for F16 - how does that make sense? Does the Chinese navy envision a naval role for the J11?

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## Imran Khan

muse said:


> Why not offer the payload and range of the J11, after all we were talking about the J11 and you throw in numbers for F16 - how does that make sense? Does the Chinese navy envision a naval role for the J11?



j11 is never any role in pakistan until we have f-16 role pakistan air force need more and more f-16.if we talk abut navy pakistan navy well never ever go for j11 they wiil never have fighter wing up to date.paf will use mirages for air sport to navy.PN will get there first full air sqwarden and that is JF17


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## muse

easy, don't have a cow - F16 was and will remain a mistake, but we were talking about a role for the J11 in the Pak navy - Our potential adversary is not just the indian navy, but also "others" like Western navies. JF-17 does not have the range or payload for a extended naval role - and it's "multirole" capablities exist in a tightly defined envelope - which does not mean she is not a fine ship, the J11 is twin engine ship with greater ranger and payload. Just because a capability to provide air cover has not existed in the Pak Bahriyah doe snot mean that such a role will never exist or that it ought not exist.


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## Neo

J-11 has been in the pipelines for quite some time but with the uncertainity about the future of F-16C/D and the financial crisis our focus will be on the JF-17 and FC-20 with the latter providing dual role for maritime strikes.


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## Imran Khan

Neo said:


> J-11 has been in the pipelines for quite some time but with the uncertainity about the future of F-16C/D and the financial crisis our focus will be on the JF-17 and FC-20 with the latter providing dual role for maritime strikes.



sir thats mean near future there is no role of j11 in PN.am i right


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## Myth_buster_1

imran khan said:


> j11 is never any role in pakistan until we have f-16 role pakistan air force need more and more f-16.if we talk abut navy pakistan navy well never ever go for j11 they wiil never have fighter wing up to date.paf will use mirages for air sport to navy.PN will get there first full air sqwarden and that is JF17



Why do you say that? J-11 has no role in PAF/PN? J-11s are extensively used as Maritime MRCA in PLAN and their are plans to upgrade them to Su-33 latest technology by 2015. PN will be facing Super Hornets and Su-30MKI in Pakistan's south air cammand. the F-16 MLU will still be based in Punjab while only one squd of new F-16s will be based in Shabaz the closest F-16s to PN support but still 300-350KM far. JF-17 is already replacing Mirage-III/IV F-7 and Q-5 in PAF south air command. only by 2012 will their be any FC-20 squadron available to PAF and that too i dough will be placed for navy support in south any time soon untill we have enough in 2016 or so. We have Chinese K-8, JF-17 and dont think their will be any problem for us to induct J-11s when we have already operated twin engine F-6 in the past. i think upgraded J-11B with su-33 technology will be the best punch for the buck!


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## Imran Khan

> Why do you say that? J-11 has no role in PAF/PN? J-11s



until USA never stop f-16



> J-11s are extensively used as Maritime MRCA in PLAN and their are plans to upgrade them to Su-33 latest technology by 2015



we all know they are best but we looking for j-10 and jf-17




> upgraded J-11B with su-33 technology will be the best punch for the buck!



so what PN waiting for



> PN will be facing Super Hornets and Su-30MKI in Pakistan's south air cammand. the F-16 MLU will still be based in Punjab while only one squd of new F-16s will be based in Shabaz the closest F-16s to PN support but still 300-350KM far. JF-17 is already replacing Mirage-III/IV F-7 and Q-5 in PAF south air command. only by 2012 will their be any FC-20 squadron available to PAF and that too i dough will be placed for navy support in south any time soon untill we have enough in 2016 or so. We have Chinese K-8, JF-17 and dont think their will be any problem for us to induct J-11s when we have already operated twin engine F-6 in the past



100&#37; agree we need them but there is no news that PN will get j11?


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## batmannow

imran khan said:


> j11 is never any role in pakistan until we have f-16 role pakistan air force need more and more f-16.if we talk abut navy pakistan navy well never ever go for j11 they wiil never have fighter wing up to date.paf will use mirages for air sport to navy.PN will get there first full air sqwarden and that is JF17



Dear imran khan; sir
i cant understand, why still our comrads still cant, belive that era of F-16's in PAF inventry is already OVER.
its even horible to think, we cant getout of our obsession with F-16's! even our relations with USA, are on the werge of a war yet, still we think that any how, uncle SAM will allow us F-16'S?
we NEED TO STOP ALL THIS CRAP IMMEDIATLY, if we want a strong , self-saficiant , self relied ,airforce, our plans & polices should be in line with our economic, geo-political situation, not by our likes or dislikes of the weapons.
it would be very shame full to wait another, ten years begging US for F-16'S, as what we did, back in 90s , but its different now, i guss we will not be able to get f-16s back in PAF service, even we beg , 10 times more than what we did before in 90s, to get wheat in place of f-16s?


if, J-11B s are good enough, gettable option thn we should go for that, its better we, shall have something, thn nothing?


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## Imran Khan

we are talking abut pakistan navy

is there any chance of j11 in PN ?

may be in PAF but navy i never see j11 in navy


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## batmannow

imran khan said:


> we are talking abut pakistan navy
> 
> is there any chance of j11 in PN ?
> 
> may be in PAF but navy i never see j11 in navy



My great sir, 
but, i guss thread is about (Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)).
hope you will forgive me.


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## Imran Khan

batmannow said:


> My great sir,
> but, i guss thread is about (Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)).
> hope you will forgive me.



you 100% right that pakistan ofrred for j11 is topic .now its matter of funding were we pay already f-16 jf-17 j-10 now offer is j11 next month jxx  so pakistan were will pay.we don't have 16bn of mushrreaf era now we have 2.50 mn in our pocket


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## General Fujita

I agree, even though the j-11 would allow great strength in depth i dont think the deal seems feasible at this stage. However, there are rumours of a naval version of j-10. That would seem more likely.


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## TOPGUN

The fact of the matter is guys if there is any drama shama by the US on the f-16's then we must look in to j-11's cuz then u are filling the gaps of the f-16's simple plus we have no other choice we can not buy any other platform cuz of funds and politics so i think perhaps increasing the #'s on the j-10 and still accuring some j-11 sqn will be a good choice as jf-17 still will be on plan ! as per PN we dont know wat is there plan or they just wana rely on PAF other then having some talks about accuring one sqn of jf-17's ! lets see wat happens but i think we should go for j-11!!!!


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## jupiter2007

TOPGUN said:


> The fact of the matter is guys if there is any drama shama by the US on the f-16's then we must look in to j-11's cuz then u are filling the gaps of the f-16's simple plus we have no other choice we can not buy any other platform cuz of funds and politics so i think perhaps increasing the #'s on the j-10 and still accuring some j-11 sqn will be a good choice as jf-17 still will be on plan ! as per PN we dont know wat is there plan or they just wana rely on PAF other then having some talks about accuring one sqn of jf-17's ! lets see wat happens but i think we should go for j-11!!!!



Pakistan will never go for J-11 because of size, 2 engine and maintenance cost.

PAF plan is to increase the # of JF-17 by building locally and in China, possibly going with European avianics, Radar and engine, unless Russia is willing to give TOT on the engine. 
PAF had Planned to get 60 J-10/F-10/F-20, but only ordered 36.


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## was

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan will never go for J-11 because of size, 2 engine and maintenance cost.
> 
> PAF plan is to increase the # of JF-17 by building locally and in China, possibly going with European avianics, Radar and engine, unless Russia is willing to give TOT on the engine.
> PAF had Planned to get 60 J-10/F-10/F-20, but only ordered 36.



thanks for the news


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## TOPGUN

We have had twin engine aircraft before lets take out this rubish thinking !! plzzz


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## batmannow

TOPGUN said:


> We have had twin engine aircraft before lets take out this rubish thinking !! plzzz



dear TOPGUN; sir
quit rightly, said its all crap, or you can describe it as technical trolling just to, make people, stick to someones wish list.
till now, our political leadership was seen blind, but now our militry leadership is ready to follow same path, which is quite horrible for pakistan in comming future?
i mean, if you know after a month or so, new US president will in charge of the affairs in white house, and this US president is about to attack pakistan in comming 3 months or so, why still we are having WAIT & SEE?
or are we ready to say, that we dont have technology to stop USAF, just like recntly our, defence minster said " we dont have technology to stop predator attacks in fata"?

is that, we are looking for?


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## TOPGUN

Nicely said boss!!! glad we on the same page!


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## Muradk

batmannow said:


> Dear imran khan; sir
> i cant understand, why still our comrads still cant, belive that era of F-16's in PAF inventry is already OVER.
> its even horible to think, we cant getout of our obsession with F-16's! even our relations with USA, are on the werge of a war yet, still we think that any how, uncle SAM will allow us F-16'S?
> we NEED TO STOP ALL THIS CRAP IMMEDIATLY, if we want a strong , self-saficiant , self relied ,airforce, our plans & polices should be in line with our economic, geo-political situation, not by our likes or dislikes of the weapons.
> it would be very shame full to wait another, ten years begging US for F-16'S, as what we did, back in 90s , but its different now, i guss we will not be able to get f-16s back in PAF service, even we beg , 10 times more than what we did before in 90s, to get wheat in place of f-16s?
> 
> 
> if, J-11B s are good enough, gettable option thn we should go for that, its better we, shall have something, thn nothing?



You haven't flown one that is why you are saying it, Obsession is a small word, F-16 is one finest fighters in the world put a good pilot in it and you dont have to worry about any fighter. 
And we are getting 50 J-10s we have an option of another 10 if needed. PAF used to advice Navy that let us give you cover when you guys are flying but they thought that they can do it without the help of PAF, After Atlan got shot down then they realised that they need a fast interceptor to keep them safe. Now a full sqd of Mirages is at their disposal, PN has a problem they dont get things in there mind problaly its the water, They still fly Missions without telling PAF the only time PAF is informed when they thing there *** is on line.

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## Imran Khan

yes its nice real info abut PN .thanks sir murad i think you say we are not going for j11 ?


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## IceCold

Muradk said:


> You haven't flown one that is why you are saying it, Obsession is a small word, F-16 is one finest fighters in the world put a good pilot in it and you dont have to worry about any fighter.
> And we are getting 50 J-10s we have an option of another 10 if needed. PAF used to advice Navy that let us give you cover when you guys are flying but they thought that they can do it without the help of PAF, After Atlan got shot down then they realised that they need a fast interceptor to keep them safe. Now a full sqd of Mirages is at their disposal, PN has a problem they dont get things in there mind problaly its the water, They still fly Missions without telling PAF the only time PAF is informed when they thing there *** is on line.



That is why like any other modern day navy, PN too should have a air arm of its own which will eliminate the need for the PAF to provide cover and also the race between the two sides shifting the blame on each other for not coordinating with each other the way it was suppose to be done.


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## batmannow

Muradk said:


> You haven't flown one that is why you are saying it, Obsession is a small word, F-16 is one finest fighters in the world put a good pilot in it and you dont have to worry about any fighter.
> And we are getting 50 J-10s we have an option of another 10 if needed. PAF used to advice Navy that let us give you cover when you guys are flying but they thought that they can do it without the help of PAF, After Atlan got shot down then they realised that they need a fast interceptor to keep them safe. Now a full sqd of Mirages is at their disposal, PN has a problem they dont get things in there mind problaly its the water, They still fly Missions without telling PAF the only time PAF is informed when they thing there *** is on line.



Hon.Muradk; sir
i never said that IRON EAGAL isnt the capable fighter bird,& i know its the best of the best,yes you are 100&#37; right !i never flyed the bird , same as our former president musharaf , nor president g.w.bush ever flyed the brid in their lives, but still they know about the bird , and they decide the inductions of f16's in thier respected airforces, so i guss it has a lot with politics.
what my point is, due to our last experince with last democrat PRESIDENT OF US(bill clinton) , we had experinced great difficulty getting F-16's from US, & I am sure this time, with OBAMMA in white house, it will be most difficult idea to think?
So, what i cant understand the reason, why not our militry planners give up thier idea about more F-16's in paf, because politicly it would be imposible for pakistan to get more f-16's, it wouldbe maddness to keep planing & keep planing for more of these brids, what is our other options, why dont we try something else. why dont we can simply accept the fact that , these birds are ungetteble for now.
debate over F-16's isnt going any where, till we, find another musharaf & another g.w.bush?

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## Imran Khan

easy batmanow easy my friend now sir murad also agree with me so have to wait some time

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## Black Stone

What is an IRON EAGLE?.


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## ejaz007

A lot has been said about US policy change once and if Mr. Obama enters white house. One should remeber that running an election campaign is one thing and running white house and maintaining a coalition quite another thing. In real world politics you have to take along all your coalition partners and to do that you have to satisfy some of their needs especially in a situation where your own *** is stuck in two places and you cant afford to loose one of your most crucial allies.

White house is already working with congress to resolve the F-16 issue and one way or the other these shall be coming.

Please read thread related to F-16.


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## Muradk

Black Stone said:


> What is an IRON EAGLE?.



You got to be kidding. F-16s are known as Fighting Falcons but after the release of the movie IRON EAGLE a Mega Blockbuster , Everybody started to call it IRON EAGLE . Most Air Forces call it Iron Eagle.

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## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> You got to be kidding. F-16s are known as Fighting Falcons but after the release of the movie IRON EAGLE a Mega Blockbuster , Everybody started to call it IRON EAGLE . Most Air Forces call it Iron Eagle.



lol sir but you know how childish these movie are? pure "Israeli"  propaganda.

- all F-16s had Israeli camo
- the enemy as usual were the "evil" Iraqis but the funny thing is in many series they used Israeli Kfir as the bad guys and the cockpit were tinted black to make it look more evil.. 
- in some series Israeli F-4s were used as russian Migs..

so who said the american movie industry is not "jew" control?

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## araz

batmannow said:


> Hon.Muradk; sir
> i never said that IRON EAGAL isnt the capable fighter bird,& i know its the best of the best,yes you are 100% right !i never flyed the bird , same as our former president musharaf , nor president g.w.bush ever flyed the brid in their lives, but still they know about the bird , and they decide the inductions of f16's in thier respected airforces, so i guss it has a lot with politics.
> what my point is, due to our last experince with last democrat PRESIDENT OF US(bill clinton) , we had experinced great difficulty getting F-16's from US, & I am sure this time, with OBAMMA in white house, it will be most difficult idea to think?
> So, what i cant understand the reason, why not our militry planners give up thier idea about more F-16's in paf, because politicly it would be imposible for pakistan to get more f-16's, it wouldbe maddness to keep planing & keep planing for more of these brids, what is our other options, why dont we try something else. why dont we can simply accept the fact that , these birds are ungetteble for now.
> debate over F-16's isnt going any where, till we, find another musharaf & another g.w.bush?



Batman Sir
our wish lists aside, in the current financial climate PAF/PN just can not afford another platform. They are already inducting J10, F16s, and J10. It iwll take us into2015-16.I thin PAF will go for JXX post 2019. I dont see the need for another fighter of the same generation doing us any good.
Sir MuradK/Neo/ Fatman/Mark, Xman I need your opinion on a thought that i have had(not original of course). Would it not be financially more expedient to have PAF keep all the air assetts, and the command of forces run through a joint regional command represented by PA, PAF and PN to ensure a more coordinated effort in case of aggression. It will curb individual urges and agitation!!! Plus when your *** is on the line it would mean everybody will think in one direction. What would need to be done to achieve this?
Araz
Araz

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## Imran Khan

23march said:


> lol sir but you know how childish these movie are? pure "Israeli"  propaganda.
> 
> - all F-16s had Israeli camo
> - the enemy as usual were the "evil" Iraqis but the funny thing is in many series they used Israeli Kfir as the bad guys and the cockpit were tinted black to make it look more evil..
> - in some series Israeli F-4s were used as russian Migs..
> 
> so who said the american movie industry is not "jew" control?



i note this so many times.but they make moves for guys who don't have defence info.and please see you nighbers whaat they do with us in there moves also

regards


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## Black Stone

Muradk said:


> You got to be kidding. F-16s are known as Fighting Falcons but after the release of the movie IRON EAGLE a Mega Blockbuster , Everybody started to call it IRON EAGLE . Most Air Forces call it Iron Eagle.



I haven't seen that movie, is it good?.


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## TOPGUN

Black Stone said:


> I haven't seen that movie, is it good?.



Its ok i guess i have it ! there are severl parts of iron eagle the one being talked about here does infact use Israeli f-16's and kafir's but its a movie a low budget film who cares!


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## batmannow

araz said:


> Batman Sir
> our wish lists aside, in the current financial climate PAF/PN just can not afford another platform. They are already inducting J10, F16s, and J10. It iwll take us into2015-16.I thin PAF will go for JXX post 2019. I dont see the need for another fighter of the same generation doing us any good.
> Sir MuradK/Neo/ Fatman/Mark, Xman I need your opinion on a thought that i have had(not original of course). Would it not be financially more expedient to have PAF keep all the air assetts, and the command of forces run through a joint regional command represented by PA, PAF and PN to ensure a more coordinated effort in case of aggression. It will curb individual urges and agitation!!! Plus when your *** is on the line it would mean everybody will think in one direction. What would need to be done to achieve this?
> Araz
> Araz[/QUO
> 
> 
> Dear hon.Araz, sir
> i am 1000&#37; agreed with your view point,due to our current financial climate, but what !if we have to face multiple enemy on 2 different war theaters ?
> my, thinking was , if we can get 40 j-11b's , surly we will keep moving the things in right directions, its not what many of our commrads think about me.
> the sitution, pakistan is facing now is similar to IRAQ after frist gulf war, allied nations systemticly took out the cash from IRAQ, then they putted sanctions against IRAQ, and NO FLY ZONES were created to cut off IRAQI air frontiers & to have a free and safe air for allied birds therefore, on the eve of 9\11, IRAQ was been a sitting duck.
> all this, resulted in the ultimate invassion of IRAQ, and due to all of above mentioned steps, IRAQI air force cant even go in the air, they had to put their mig-29 in IRAN.
> 
> I dont want, all this happen to us, so for this very reason i was pushing for j-11b's , because they are easy to get! as they were offered by CHINA itself, on the other hand, from now & till 2016 if we ever attacked by any one , from any side then we will have no chances, to goafter or to have deep strikes inside the enemy's heart.
> 
> And from 2009 to 2016 , we need birds to fly across pakistani airspace, i guss we have altogather 300 planes now, most them were on the werge of expiries. out of 300 ,only 140 are good for any kind of combat, we need at least 250 plus, efficient, modren fighters in our inventry.
> so the question is ?does our current financial situation ,allows us to buy new birds?
> a very, easy anwer willbe NO, but fact should be kept open, strong security allways gives a bond of good economy, currently due to our worsing security situation results can be put as an easy example.
> 
> at any cost & at any price, pakistan cant stop its defence needs, as for j-11's , i guss it would be easier for usto get them on easy payment way,& if we can get them on loan, it will be great,& i guss we, cant get same kind of deal in the case of F-16's or any other westrn platform, surly it will not be easy and it will not come same as J-11's!
> 
> I never, thought that j-11's ,couldbe better than f-16's but its, the political conditions in comming future specialy in usa, the last nial was put in the cofin of Jhon Mccain, FROMER SECTRY OF STATE & FROMER CHEIF OF USA ARMED FORCES,(repblican)GEN. COLIN POWELL enddrosed BARRAK OBAMMA as a next US president, BARRAK OBAMMA'S intentions are very clear and known about pakistan, unfortuntly most of US politicians never change thier policies, once which they speak out in public, i guss OBAMMA in power , we will be at same page ,as we once were before at, the times of bill clinton.
> 
> 
> therefore we, had to think positivly on each posible solution for our defence, which is very important factor to achive great economy , our economy now realy in worse shape, because of our bad security? but even for now we, cant close our eyes, saying our economy is bad? even in the worse shape of our economy !we cant say, that we cant defend our country?
> I am very sory, to putting my arguments, but as i consider them important, i will keep posting them with, respect to allof our honriable comrads like you.
> batmannow,
> regrds.


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## TOPGUN

Batmannow i always agree with u besides the fact we are friends! but u have changed your story around this time u have been agreeing and stating the fact that we need 
j-11's now wat happen yaar?? we are talking about worse case scenero if the drama begins with the f-16's then we need or should get another platform and that would and should be j-11 as some of us have agreed ! may i right?

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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> Batmannow i always agree with u besides the fact we are friends! but u have changed your story around this time u have been agreeing and stating the fact that we need
> j-11's now wat happen yaar?? we are talking about worse case scenero if the drama begins with the f-16's then we need or should get another platform and that would and should be j-11 as some of us have agreed ! may i right?



i reapeat same before so many times but my lovely batmanow never accept even our respected sir murad clear that j11 will be in paf if we never get f-16. are you agree batmanow

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## TOPGUN

Thankyou imran sir!!!!!!!!!!!


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## batmannow

TOPGUN said:


> Batmannow i always agree with u besides the fact we are friends! but u have changed your story around this time u have been agreeing and stating the fact that we need
> j-11's now wat happen yaar?? we are talking about worse case scenero if the drama begins with the f-16's then we need or should get another platform and that would and should be j-11 as some of us have agreed ! may i right?



thanks a lot TOPGUN; sir, 
simply to put, my point is, stop thinking about of the begining of the dam drama's ,& start prepareing for the worst case scenero's.
actuly , we pakistanis was & were kept our minds the theories of world war2 in our heads, and i dont like that!
think by yourself , why should! will be thinking of worst case scenero's ,waiting for when actully worst case scenero's will hapen? why dont we think it before?
why, we should not move ahead of the times?
what was happening in fata, if we ever thought it before, it wouldnt happened today.
thats my point was for j-11's, when we know won't get F-16's, what we are waiting for?


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## batmannow

imran khan said:


> i reapeat same before so many times but my lovely batmanow never accept even our respected sir murad clear that j11 will be in paf if we never get f-16. are you agree batmanow



imran khan; sir
i respect, evry one seniors here, spacialy! sir murad .
but, there are no (IF's), in every great nations history, there are only 2 words in great nations dictionries SHOULD or SHOULDNOT.
I HOPE, YOU WILL GET MY POINT.


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## TOPGUN

I lost ya batmannow!! kahar still with ya watever it is lol!!!!!!


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## batmannow

TOPGUN said:


> I lost ya batmannow!! kahar still with ya watever it is lol!!!!!!



i give it up,


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## Imran Khan

batmannow said:


> i give it up,



i thing you give it down batmanow
so now whats your think abut j11


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## p2prada

You are getting your F-16s right. So, why the tension??


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## TOPGUN

p2prada said:


> You are getting your F-16s right. So, why the tension??



P2Parada plzz read before responding !! then u will be able to tell why all the noise and tension thx boss!!!! if not let me kow i will tell u why !


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## Kharian_Beast

I personally think this thread should have died a long time ago, because no one has till now established if Pakistan was indeed offered the J11 or if anyone is even considering it realistically. I really doubt anyone is considering it realistically, they are still stuck in the 80s.

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## HAIDER

_Most recent update from Indian newspaper...
_
MOSCOW: Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production
for export to Pakistan and other
Third World countries at much cheaper prices, a leading Russian daily reported
on Tuesday.

"Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.

Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines, Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the paper said.

"It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007, China unveiled its 'development' &#8212; J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27," the daily reported.

Now, Moscow seems to have completely stopped the deliveries of engines. The onboard Zhuk radar is one of the problem modules for China as from the very beginning it was supplied with limited combat capabilities, the report said.

"What irks Moscow most is that the 1996 agreement did not allow the re-export of J11 to third countries, but now Beijing is busy in the search for the markets of this fighter.

*First in the queue is Pakistan," it said, adding China plans to build 5,000 J11B fighters. Given their cheap price, J11B fighters may wipe out not only Su-27, but also MiG-29 and US F-16 from the Third World markets.

*
Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India

There is heat in this Pakistan and J11b news.


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## Kharian_Beast

HAIDER said:


> _Most recent update from Indian newspaper...
> _
> MOSCOW: Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production
> for export to Pakistan and other
> Third World countries at much cheaper prices, a leading Russian daily reported
> on Tuesday.
> 
> "Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.
> 
> Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines, Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the paper said.
> 
> "It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007, China unveiled its 'development'  J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27," the daily reported.
> 
> Now, Moscow seems to have completely stopped the deliveries of engines. The onboard Zhuk radar is one of the problem modules for China as from the very beginning it was supplied with limited combat capabilities, the report said.
> 
> "What irks Moscow most is that the 1996 agreement did not allow the re-export of J11 to third countries, but now Beijing is busy in the search for the markets of this fighter.
> 
> *First in the queue is Pakistan," it said, adding China plans to build 5,000 J11B fighters. Given their cheap price, J11B fighters may wipe out not only Su-27, but also MiG-29 and US F-16 from the Third World markets.
> 
> *
> Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India
> 
> There is heat in this Pakistan and J11b news.



I heard Sukhoi dropped the lawsuit. This article is amateurish.

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## Muradk

I have been a Part of project falcon and from my point, I don't think we will ever see a block-52and Guys that's my opinion. But if we get them we will use the option of getting more of them which we have, If the New White House staff decides no we are not giving you then we have 2 options One is China and the other is South Africa. 
Getting 4 gen from China is easy but you have to take under consideration it will take millions of $$ to train atleast 200 Airmen and test pilots and its time consuming. If we go for South Africa the Gs , the fighter is simple and is suited for every task Multi-Role you can change its Amo and config within 7 min tops, But that deal will have problems because they are using uncle SAM's engines.
Right now I am only scared of 1 country. India knows are capabilities so does Nato. But the day Israelis get there hands on JSF weather they are 5 to 10 they will make a straight run for Iran and them Pindi. We wount know what came and hit us till we get eyes on them. They have tried it twice and both time hightec equipment didn't work it was a junior Flt Lt who saw them and informed KSA PAK embassy. Second time they were flying so low that the radar didn't see them 50 F-16s in one straight line, Our guys at Tabuk saw them, it took us a total of 6 min for ADA 52 planes in air an another 15 to put 125 fighters in Air, Sat saw it and told the IAF watch out they already know you are coming they were 15 miles aways when they turned back. I remember all 5 ADA fighters who were placed in Chaklala were son's of all 5 High Ranking Officers and one of them was mine and we 5 went and saw them in ADA met them and said good bye when I turned around my son said Dad If we take off you will know but we 5 have decided that we will not come back. The Army general God Bless his Soul said look at the bright side you 5 will live for ever.

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## Imran Khan

graet sir its realy a best time whn i read you thanks very much for this post


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## Munir

The only way to counter it will be 24/7 defence against three nations. The only way to win it is to threaten massive attack if attacked. The fact they will try is not unlogical. We only expect that we are not defended by our politicians but by our true hero's.

I never expected block52... And even if they will be a problem cause they can control us. I would expect to pass it and go straight to other options.

p.s south africa=sweden's gripen.

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## batmannow

Muradk said:


> I have been a Part of project falcon and form my point, I don't think we will ever see a block-52and Guys that's my opinion. But if we get them we will use the option of getting more of them which we have, If the New White House staff decides no we are not giving you then we have 2 options One is China and the other is South Africa.
> Getting 4 gen from China is easy but you have to take under consideration it will take millions of $$ to train atleast 200 Airmen and test pilots and its time consuming. If we go for South Africa the Gs , the fighter is simple and is suited for every task Multi-Role you can change its Amo and config within 7 min tops, But that deal will have problems because they are using uncle SAM's engines.
> Right now I am only scared of 1 country. India knows are capabilities so does Nato. But the day Israelis get there hands on JSF weather they are 5 to 10 they will make a straight run for Iran and them Pindi. We wount know what came and hit us till we get eyes on them. They have tried it twice and both time hightec equipment didn't work it was a junior Flt Lt who saw them and informed KSA PAK embassy. Second time they were flying so low that the radar didn't see them 50 F-16s in one straight line, Our guys at Tabuk saw them, it took us a total of 6 min for ADA 52 planes in air an another 15 to put 125 fighters in Air, Sat saw it and told the IAF watch out they already know you are coming they were 15 miles aways when they turned back. I remember all 5 ADA fighters who were placed in Chaklala were son's of all 5 High Ranking Officers and one of them was mine and we 5 went and saw them in ADA met them and said good bye when I turned around my son said Dad If we take off you will know but we 5 have decided that we will not come back. The Army general God Bless his Soul said look at the bright side you 5 will live for ever.




Dear & hon.Muradk; sir
you see, i got it by pushing you in emotions?
Thats call pakistanism?
love you, love your son, love every pakistani soul , who got same sprit.
just wana, elobrate a bit, plz take out uncle sam, from our every defence policy.
i guss, it will not take so long, to become be trained on 4 gen from China or it can be just 1 time to do , so consider the price of a bird from US or even from SOUTH AFRICA, guss surly ,it will be more expensive thn of 4 gen from China , with 200 Airmen and test pilots ! but plz look on ther bright side , we got to this some day!
so why not now?
to be an enemy of USA could be dangerous, but being a friend of USA is fatal?


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## Kharian_Beast

Can I ask when South Africa became a viable option for a front line fighter? Gripen through a 3rd party? Really?

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## Quwa

Muradk said:


> I have been a Part of project falcon and form my point, I don't think we will ever see a block-52and Guys that's my opinion. But if we get them we will use the option of getting more of them which we have, If the New White House staff decides no we are not giving you then we have 2 options One is China and the other is South Africa.
> Getting 4 gen from China is easy but you have to take under consideration it will take millions of $$ to train atleast 200 Airmen and test pilots and its time consuming. If we go for South Africa the Gs , the fighter is simple and is suited for every task Multi-Role you can change its Amo and config within 7 min tops, But that deal will have problems because they are using uncle SAM's engines.


Sir I think I may be wrong, but are you suggesting that PAF could go for Gripen in case the Block-52+ deal falls through? If so, then why risk it with South Africa if PAF can go directly to Sweden and acquire Gripen NG with a European engine?

Secondly, on the case of J-11B. Say the Block-52+ deal fails, given the acquisition of FC-20, would it not be more feasible to acquire J-11B due to engine commonality of WS-10A? I also read that the Chinese use uniform maintenance infrastructure similar to the West - i.e. not specificied centres like Russia.

In case the F-16 deal fails completely, I think the PAF will either focus entirely on the FC-20 & JF-17 combo, or perhaps procure J-11B or J-11BS.

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## batmannow

Mark Sien said:


> Sir I think I may be wrong, but are you suggesting that PAF could go for Gripen in case the Block-52+ deal falls through? If so, then why risk it with South Africa if PAF can go directly to Sweden and acquire Gripen NG with a European engine?
> 
> Secondly, on the case of J-11B. Say the Block-52+ deal fails, given the acquisition of FC-20, would it not be more feasible to acquire J-11B due to engine commonality of WS-10A? I also read that the Chinese use uniform maintenance infrastructure similar to the West - i.e. not specificied centres like Russia.
> 
> In case the F-16 deal fails completely, I think the PAF will either focus entirely on the FC-20 & JF-17 combo, or perhaps procure J-11B or J-11BS.



Mark Sien; sir
cool input, thanks a lot man!


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## Myth_buster_1

Muradk said:


> I have been a Part of project falcon and form my point, I don't think we will ever see a block-52and Guys that's my opinion. But if we get them we will use the option of getting more of them which we have, If the New White House staff decides no we are not giving you then we have 2 options One is China and the other is South Africa.
> Getting 4 gen from China is easy but you have to take under consideration it will take millions of $$ to train atleast 200 Airmen and test pilots and its time consuming. If we go for South Africa the Gs , the fighter is simple and is suited for every task Multi-Role you can change its Amo and config within 7 min tops, But that deal will have problems because they are using uncle SAM's engines.
> Right now I am only scared of 1 country. India knows are capabilities so does Nato. But the day Israelis get there hands on JSF weather they are 5 to 10 they will make a straight run for Iran and them Pindi. We wount know what came and hit us till we get eyes on them. They have tried it twice and both time hightec equipment didn't work it was a junior Flt Lt who saw them and informed KSA PAK embassy. Second time they were flying so low that the radar didn't see them 50 F-16s in one straight line, Our guys at Tabuk saw them, it took us a total of 6 min for ADA 52 planes in air an another 15 to put 125 fighters in Air, Sat saw it and told the IAF watch out they already know you are coming they were 15 miles aways when they turned back. I remember all 5 ADA fighters who were placed in Chaklala were son's of all 5 High Ranking Officers and one of them was mine and we 5 went and saw them in ADA met them and said good bye when I turned around my son said Dad If we take off you will know but we 5 have decided that we will not come back. The Army general God Bless his Soul said look at the bright side you 5 will live for ever.



sir with all due respect you are still the best poster in defence.pk but sometimes your posts makes other person 

Their is no dough that US has been bullying us but at the same time they dont want to pis-s us off so so much that we become another Iran though with NUKES! i think F-16, P-3, frigates, armaments, etc will all eventually reach our home one day. Bush has already approved these orders so will Mcain if he wins (very likely) and as for Obama he just acting like a "anti-islamic" guy to get votes but i believe he will be very different if he is elected. the last thing the US would wanna lose in asia specially this region is lose pakistan. *they will try their best to keep our top military brass happy but at the same time restrict our capability to get their things done.* like they say. F-16 is a symbolic figure to pakistan and if they lose this specially pak top brass will lose trust in US and eventually some one will step up and kick the puppet democrazy government out and take over. and we do know that every single pakistani do not like US or their policy and wants them out so thats what this new military dictatorship could offer to the awam and have all time big support. of course we cant be the starters as we cant afford this.

how is SA gonna offer PAF grippens when they dont have enough for themself? will the west "who has huge influence" on RSA allow their weapon to be resold to Pakistan?
As for Israel attacking our Nuke facility well do you think that all of our 40-60+ nukes are pilled up in one or 2-3 location and Israel can wipe out our Nuke capability in one strike? yes we are on the Israeli hit list but Iran is first as they are on the way to acquire Nuke weapon and if they are attacked then i am sure our ICBM, cruise missiles or low profile boats will be ready to deliver nukes in Israel if we are ever to be attached. 

sir you are just trying to scare us.


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## Myth_buster_1

Munir said:


> I never expected block52... And even if they will be a problem cause they can control us. I would expect to pass it and go straight to other options.



either the PAF air staff have become blind with the US equipment obsession or we are just assuming that block-52 could come with strings attached. well 4 F-16s and going through MLU as we speak... with of curse PAF personal presence and eventually next year MLU will be done in pakistan with TAI assistances. we are just releasing our anger on F-16s.


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## Kharian_Beast

A major advantage the J11B has over the SU27SK is it's impressive A2G capability. It's a nice match for our air force no doubt, but China is having cost and training issues related to this platform. Why I don't know, but it's a big step for China to make this on their own, a plane that can compete with the latest F-15's. China is also developing J11C naval variant btw.


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## Imran Khan

you forget mr.23 marrch they will say story of 80s not that time pakistan was same as today. and remember in 80s there is no evedence that pakistan have ready nukes.they wan't hit kahuta that they wil stop pakistan to make nukes.never they try thats after our tests in 1998.


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## Myth_buster_1

imran khan said:


> you forget mr.23 marrch they will say story of 80s not that time pakistan was same as today. and remember in 80s there is no evedence that pakistan have ready nukes.they wan't hit kahuta that they wil stop pakistan to make nukes.never they try thats after our tests in 1998.



What is Israel gonna achieve from destroying our Nuclear facility/ies in long term? as i said. i dont think our nuke weapons are located in one or two facilities. you do know the consequence for attacking pak NFs? even in 1980s PAF planned to attack back at Israel if they are to be attacked. isreal can be wiped out of map with one or 2 nukes .


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## batmannow

Kharian_Beast said:


> A major advantage the J11B has over the SU27SK is it's impressive A2G capability. It's a nice match for our air force no doubt, but China is having cost and training issues related to this platform. Why I don't know, but it's a big step for China to make this on their own, a plane that can compete with the latest F-15's. China is also developing J11C naval variant btw.



i guss , real logical thing to do is to mix up our current inventry, with 60 J11b's, 60 J-10's and the remaining F-16's , i think, it can be a deadly combination.
what we, need to understand here is, our needs to our air defences in comming future, if our policy makers think's , USA will give us more F-16's then , i would be thinking of thier madness or guss crouption, the kickbacks they can get from the F-16's deal.
J-11B's are not a medium tech. aircrafts they have enough qualities to be in our inventry, but the real problum is the obssesion of F-16's in pakistani nation, & its became our weekness, which uncle sam uses often.

J-11B

In mid-2002, SAC revealed its intention to build an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 by revealing a mock-up aircraft carrying various types of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Russian sources also confirmed that SAC was pursuing a multirole variant of the J-11 with much greater Chinese-made content. This variant was designated J-11B.

An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
An indigenous digital flight-control system;
A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;
A &#8216;glass&#8217; cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);
The aircraft could carry the Chinese-made PL-8 IR-homing SRAAM and PL-12 (SD-10) active radar-homing MRAAM for air-to-air combat. While the PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27/-30 and R-77 (AA-12 Adder) combination, successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multi-target engagement capability. The J-11B is also expected to have enhanced air-to-surface attack capabilities with the indigenous precision strike ammunitions such as LT-2 laser-guided bomb, the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb, the YJ-91 (Kh-31P) anti-radiation missile, and the KD-88 air-to-surface missile.

During the 6th Zhuhai Air Show held between 31 October and 5 November 2006, China revealed first official details about the indigenously developed WS-10A &#8216;Tai Hang&#8217; turbofan engine. The engine had already been successfully tested on a modified Su-27K fighter and possibly on some J-11 airframes too. The engine is understood to be similar to the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine in both technology and performance. However, it is unclear whether the WS-10A has already been fitted on the &#8216;indigenised&#8217; variant of the J-11.

look at some of details, that is good enough for us,about traning we, have to do this, just like we did with f-16's, i am , very sure about the training , that our airmans, technical staff could do it in the shotest given time.
but all this , & thats , if's are the basic hurdlles which were put in by some vested intersts, for vested reasons are stopping pakistan airforce, to disinttegrete itself from the unloyal, untrusted, & back sttabbing uncle sam.
i am 100&#37; sure of the fact, that once the so called "war on terror" is over, there will be no one thinking about us, same thing , uncle sam did with us in 80's.


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## Black Stone

23march said:


> What is Israel gonna achieve from destroying our Nuclear facility/ies in long term? as i said. i dont think our nuke weapons are located in one or two facilities. you do know the consequence for attacking pak NFs? even in 1980s PAF planned to attack back at Israel if they are to be attacked. isreal can be wiped out of map with one or 2 nukes .



I don't think Israel would attack a nuclear armed nation like Pakistan. However, they would have counter measures or some sort of plan should Pakistan threaten Israel. 

The possibility of Pakistan attacking Israel or vice versa is very unlikely since both are nuclear armed and a conflict between the two brings no benefits.

Possibly Israel would get wiped off the map by Pakistan, but at the same time, Pakistan will also be destroyed. Is it worth it?.


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## batmannow

Black Stone said:


> I don't think Israel would attack a nuclear armed nation like Pakistan. However, they would have counter measures or some sort of plan should Pakistan threaten Israel.
> 
> The possibility of Pakistan attacking Israel or vice versa is very unlikely since both are nuclear armed and a conflict between the two brings no benefits.
> 
> Possibly Israel would get wiped off the map by Pakistan, but at the same time, Pakistan will also be destroyed. Is it worth it?.



Black Stone; dear
its "Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)", plz keep in mind.
thanks

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## Black Stone

batmannow said:


> Black Stone; dear
> its "Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)", plz keep in mind.
> thanks



batmannow dear, I am fully aware about the title of the thread. However, I was responding to 23march's post and in turn his response to Imran Khan.

It is interesting how you only direct this post to me. Is it because I am an American or are you turning a blind eye to your Pakistani brothers?.

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## batmannow

Black Stone said:


> batmannow dear, I am fully aware about the title of the thread. However, I was responding to 23march's post and in turn his response to Imran Khan.
> 
> It is interesting how you only direct this post to me. Is it because I am an American or are you turning a blind eye to your Pakistani brothers?.



Black Stone; sir
me & my, pakistani brother's never thought, about how you think but pushing you on the subject, i was just trying to bring something good from you.
i admir, your contributions, and realy wana see you exploring more on the issue, plz belive it we (pakistanis) are not , nationalstic peoples.
thanks


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## Black Stone

batmannow said:


> Black Stone; sir
> me & my, pakistani brother's never thought, about how you think but pushing you on the subject, i was just trying to bring something good from you.
> i admir, your contributions, and realy wana see you exploring more on the issue, plz belive it we (pakistanis) are not , nationalstic peoples.
> thanks



What did you mean by "bring something good from you" Did you mean my last post is bad? please clarify.

Being nationalistic is not a problem, just don't be blind about it.


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## Myth_buster_1

batmannow said:


> Black Stone; dear
> its "Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)", plz keep in mind.
> thanks



oh come on bro. this thread is useless anyways.. this china offering J-11 to PAF is not official yet but it only exists in internet though it could be realistic option if PAF fails to get F-16s.



Black Stone said:


> It is interesting how you only direct this post to me. Is it because I am an American or are you turning a blind eye to your Pakistani brothers?.



 no sir this is not the case. 



> Possibly Israel would get wiped off the map by Pakistan, but at the same time, Pakistan will also be destroyed. Is it worth it?.



Is it worth it? no it is not. Muslims just wanna live peacefully but you may find some extremists who wont agree with me.


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## Black Stone

23march said:


> Is it worth it? no it is not. Muslims just wanna live peacefully but you may find some extremists who wont agree with me.



That's what the Israeli's want, to peacefully co-exist with all. That is natural, I am sure that there are some extremists in Israel asell.


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## Myth_buster_1

Black Stone said:


> That's what the Israeli's want, to peacefully co-exist with all. That is natural, I am sure that there are some extremists in Israel asell.


not so easy my friend. no one can "peacefully" co-exist with the occupants.. after all the British wanted to live "peacefully" in america but the civilians resisted and kicked them out of their land and oh one of your leader at that time approved the killing of british soldiers through "terrorism" if necessary.


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## Black Stone

23march said:


> not so easy my friend. no one can "peacefully" co-exist with the occupants.. after all the British wanted to live "peacefully" in america but the civilians resisted and kicked them out of their land and oh one of your leader at that time approved the killing of british soldiers through "terrorism" if necessary.



That is why Israel is pursuing a peace deal with the Palestinians. In my opinion a two-state solution is a good idea, however there are problems concerning where the divide is. Well, I hope peace could be reached between them as this would be a good settlement for the region.

Israel knows that in the long run, a peace agreement is in their interest. If there is no peace, their survival is always threatened.


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## fatman17

^^what has this got to do with the J-11.?

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## p2prada

TOPGUN said:


> P2Parada plzz read before responding !! then u will be able to tell why all the noise and tension thx boss!!!! if not let me kow i will tell u why !





All I hear is "empty vessels making noise."

The only way PAF will not get F-16s is if they say NO or if Pak conducts a nuke test.

It is same as news reports saying Pak getting bankrupt. All hogwash. 

That is off course if u don't do anything about it.


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## p2prada

Black Stone said:


> If there is no peace, their survival is always threatened.



Threatened by J-11s off course.


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## Munir

Black Stone said:


> That's what the Israeli's want, to peacefully co-exist with all. That is natural, I am sure that there are some extremists in Israel asell.



some? That is surely intended understatement. The whole presidential race is about who Israel loves the most rather then who is the best for America...

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## Janbaz

Munir said:


> some? That is surely intended understatement. The whole presidential race is about who Israel loves the most rather then who is the best for America...



You have summed it up my man......It is pathetic to see Obama speak to Jewish voters in Florida as if he owed them more than any other etnic group. Never has Obama been shown in the mainstream media referring to muslims in a postive manner................Jews and Israel give him a sound nights sleep as well as the occassional nightmare....

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## TOPGUN

For some of u that dont understand the drama or tension plzz wake up and read up and try to understand that these f-16 birds might not come to us thanyou!!

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## jupiter2007

TOPGUN said:


> For some of u that dont understand the drama or tension plzz wake up and read up and try to understand that these f-16 birds might not come to us thanyou!!



You are right but don't mention it at pakdef forum. I want Pakistan to stop depending on USA. We need to work with China (Jf-17 and F-20) and Turkey (electronics, avionics, radar).

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## batmannow

jupiter2007 said:


> You are right but don't mention it at pakdef forum. I want Pakistan to stop depending on USA. We need to work with China (Jf-17 and F-20) and Turkey (electronics, avionics, radar).



Dear jupiter2007; sir
its the genrl, thinking in pakistani educated masses, but what to do kick backs, they were getting before! i mean f-16's deals.
that is an issue, before and ,it will remain for future too, nobody in this dam world can argue the qualities of IRON EAGLE, but a 10 year old child knows its imposible to get them, for now and in comming future.
its oky for pakitan to goahead for THUNDER or FC-20, they are surly the, the future of PAF, but J-11b also is a very capable fighter, and as its in service in PLAF, so many of its capabilities were tested ones.
thus, i guss its no harm in getting 60 of J-11s in paf, so we can face any one who dares to but an eye on pakitan, also as everybody know, it will give paf " DEEP STRIKE CAPABILITY" which we lack any way!

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## T-Rex

batmannow said:


> Dear jupiter2007; sir
> its the genrl, thinking in pakistani educated masses, but what to do kick backs, they were getting before! i mean f-16's deals.
> that is an issue, before and ,it will remain for future too, nobody in this dam world can argue the qualities of IRON EAGLE, but a 10 year old child knows its imposible to get them, for now and in comming future.
> its oky for pakitan to goahead for THUNDER or FC-20, they are surly the, the future of PAF, but J-11b also is a very capable fighter, and as its in service in PLAF, so many of its capabilities were tested ones.
> thus, i guss its no harm in getting 60 of J-11s in paf, so we can face any one who dares to but an eye on pakitan, also as everybody know, it will give paf " DEEP STRIKE CAPABILITY" which we lack any way!



Where will Pakistan get the funds for sixty J-11s ? Apart from that, is China willing to sell the J-11s ?


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## batmannow

T-Rex said:


> Where will Pakistan get the funds for sixty J-11s ? Apart from that, is China willing to sell the J-11s ?



same sources, from where we , got our finances to make nuclear bomb!
china already offered j-11's to pakistan, way back a year before, its not like what we were doing in the case of (f-16's) with usa?
it would be 10 times better, deal.


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## Kharian_Beast

"same sources, from where we , got our finances to make nuclear bomb!"


this is a whole new juicy topic in itself.


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## Munir

T-Rex said:


> Where will Pakistan get the funds for sixty J-11s ? Apart from that, is China willing to sell the J-11s ?



They were never selling J10 yet PAF seems to be the first export... They were never building JF17 yet...

It is like LCA is superduper top tech yet we all know it is never going to be a real fighterjet but a pussywagon...

So there is a lot of difference what you think and what is truth. Are you sure that you come from BD?

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## Quwa

Munir said:


> They were never selling J10 yet PAF seems to be the first export... They were never building JF17 yet...
> 
> It is like LCA is superduper top tech yet we all know it is never going to be a real fighterjet but a pussywagon...
> 
> So there is a lot of difference what you think and what is truth. Are you sure that you come from BD?


I remember the days when even some Chinese folks were saying that J-10 will never be sold to Pakistan...and also when Indians were saying that JF-17 would never fly...ohh yes...good days.

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## jupiter2007

Mark Sien said:


> I remember the days when even some Chinese folks were saying that J-10 will never be sold to Pakistan...and also when Indians were saying that JF-17 would never fly...ohh yes...good days.




Pakistan already has some mig-29 and probably some su27 in Pakistani inventory for testing/training purpose.


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## muse

Sorry for being dense on this issue of "deep strike" - I really cannot understand the emphasis on this kind of mission - any conflict is likely to be very intense and Pakistan have BM systems for these, isn't this so? In the meantime, if there is any kind of asymtery between the opposing elements it in the naval and naval air component, isn't this so? There is no possiblity of matching naval surface platforms, Pakistan can introduce a positive asymetry of it's own by focusing on naval air platforms that allow it the capablity to accrue a advantage to Pakistan, or at least a greater cost to an adversary and introduce the element of a serious risk posed by Pak naval air in the caculations of an adversary.


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## Owais

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan already has some mig-29 and probably some su27 in Pakistani inventory for testing/training purpose.



there was an article published in dawn few years ago that PAF have mig29 (not su27) given by china but that news was a rumor because china have 0 mig29 .


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## T-Rex

Munir said:


> They were never selling J10 yet PAF seems to be the first export... They were never building JF17 yet...
> 
> It is like LCA is superduper top tech yet we all know it is never going to be a real fighterjet but a pussywagon...
> 
> So there is a lot of difference what you think and what is truth. Are you sure that you come from BD?



I'm not gpoing to comment on the source of funds for the J-11s as I've already guessed it, but what is strange is that China had offered the J-11 to Pakistan and Paksitan could not respond positively to that offer. what could be the reason for that ? as far as I know Pakistan would be only too glad to have the J-11 in its inventory. This needs to be cleared before anyone is to believe that Pakistan was indeed offered the J-11.


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## Luftwaffe

Hi..

Sorry to popup in discussions...but instead of wasting money on J-11 even if its available why not invest in a JF-17??. don't tell me we can't make a bigger version of JF-17? like the b l u nder we did making a small one should have invested 100 million dollars more in this project and come up with a F-16 sized version of JF-17. too late now. i guess so... how much would it cost? 5-6 million dollars more on each one? better than spending 45 million on J-11

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## Quwa

luftwaffe said:


> Hi..
> 
> Sorry to popup in discussions...but instead of wasting money on J-11 even if its available why not invest in a JF-17??. don't tell me we can't make a bigger version of JF-17? like the b l u nder we did making a small one should have invested 100 million dollars more in this project and come up with a F-16 sized version of JF-17. too late now. i guess so... how much would it cost? 5-6 million dollars more on each one? better than spending 45 million on J-11


It would be a pointless investment...any interest in J-11B would stem from the *current* requirement of a long-range fighter with high payload. To put money into developing a larger JF-17 will consume time and would require time that we may not have. Also note that the J-11B can house a stronger radar, more ECM/EW systems and of course go further...we might use it to complement the FC-20s in far-reaching operations.

If we are to further invest in JF-17, then I suggest embarking on a project similar to the Gripen NG. Firstly make some airframe improvements to lighten the airframe through use of composites. Secondly, work towards decreasing RCS (making it stealthier) by using squarer intakes, more composites in airframe, perhaps an overall less 'rounder' airframe similar to Gripen NG. Thirdly we could use newer concepts such as blended wing designs...if we have a stronger engine (like the 9500kgf engine revealed at Zuhai), we may be able to put in a near bubbly canopy, etc.

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## batmannow

Mark Sien said:


> It would be a pointless investment...any interest in J-11B would stem from the *current* requirement of a long-range fighter with high payload. To put money into developing a larger JF-17 will consume time and would require time that we may not have. Also note that the J-11B can house a stronger radar, more ECM/EW systems and of course go further...we might use it to complement the FC-20s in far-reaching operations.
> 
> If we are to further invest in JF-17, then I suggest embarking on a project similar to the Gripen NG. Firstly make some airframe improvements to lighten the airframe through use of composites. Secondly, work towards decreasing RCS (making it stealthier) by using squarer intakes, more composites in airframe, perhaps an overall less 'rounder' airframe similar to Gripen NG. Thirdly we could use newer concepts such as blended wing designs...if we have a stronger engine (like the 9500kgf engine revealed at Zuhai), we may be able to put in a near bubbly canopy, etc.




Dear Mark Sien;sir
really, great post, and very deep thinking!
i think you realy deserved to be a part of THINK TANK.
best of luck.


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## Munir

If size and RCS does matter then it is much more efficient to go for smaller planes and force multipliers then big multiple engined planes. Exactly that you see in PAF. JF17, J10 and block 52 are all light fighterjets. They add tankers and Awacs. A MKI can never get the same power or range if you have a tanker and awacs on your side. And you will see the MKI much earlier then it will see you. The need of bigger plane for bigger ordnance is less truth at the moment. One goes for smart weapons in small sizes... Do you still hear anything about the daisy cutter? Nopes, it is to expensive and risky. They rather go for small diameter bombs and intellegent tracking.

I think the Indians have not calculated the maintenance and total cost headache when going for MKI...


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## batmannow

Munir said:


> If size and RCS does matter then it is much more efficient to go for smaller planes and force multipliers then big multiple engined planes. Exactly that you see in PAF. JF17, J10 and block 52 are all light fighterjets. They add tankers and Awacs. A MKI can never get the same power or range if you have a tanker and awacs on your side. And you will see the MKI much earlier then it will see you. The need of bigger plane for bigger ordnance is less truth at the moment. One goes for smart weapons in small sizes... Do you still hear anything about the daisy cutter? Nopes, it is to expensive and risky. They rather go for small diameter bombs and intellegent tracking.
> 
> I think the Indians have not calculated the maintenance and total cost headache when going for MKI...



Dear Munir; sir
i dont think, that indians had miscalculated the maintenance & the cost issues! the had a very progressive economy, i guss they can afford more thn this!
JF17, J10 and block 52?
JF-17 
a great bird, but still in the process of evolution!

J10 and block 52
not a part, of paf inventory but yes we have plans, block 52 ! really not reallistic, j-10s most possible thing in near future.

lets put in this way! if we cant get block -52s , thn j-11s are the best available plateforms?
right!


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## bc040400065

p2prada said:


> Pakistan doesnot even have a decent aircraft for point defence against BVR equipped IAF let alone a capable strike group.
> 
> It is no longer the man behind the machine, but machines supporting other machines. Even IAF is a moderate airforce though we are the fourth largest.
> 
> What makes an airforce powerful (or in other words "one of the best") is based on how much intelligence can be collected and used effectively.
> 
> Thats where AWACs, satellites, "dedicated jamming aircraft"(like EA6 and EA18G) come into play. First shot, First kill is the mantra. Unfortunately, IAF still lacks this capability and so does the PAF.
> 
> PAF still lacks BVR capability. Plus the old F-16s are still sitting in their hangars requiring upgrades which have no BVR capability either. the JF-17s have still not been integrated with the SD-10 for production.
> 
> 
> Getting back to the topic,
> Pak PM told parliament that there will be no more hike in defence expenditure for sometime. How will that affect PAF's ability to induct more fighters that includes JF-17, J-10 and the flanker clones???[plus the F-16s which will obvioulsy get first priority]
> 
> Even if the fighters are bought....wont maintaining be a problem. Life cycle costs are as high as the fighter costs..sometimes higher.
> 
> If the J-11s are procured, which trainers will be purchased for training pilots.



JF17 is BVR capable and can carry SD10 ... i know it will sadden u but its reality.


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## SBD-3

Owais said:


> I think 2 squadron of F11-B as bombing role (to replace A-5) will be enough for PAF



why does every one end up with 2 sqauderns????.....


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## Super Falcon

i dont bellieve that pakistan is looking to get J 11 and noone from pakistan made any comments on it our senate allowed to buy J 10 not J 11 and our ex air chief also mentioned that paf is interested in J 10 not J 11 so stop living in dreams in some mediaker articles


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## bc040400065

pakistan does not need J11. and as per now PAF only plans to develop and deploy JF17 and some 100 odd J10b or soem future variants of J10 till 2025. even some news report sugest PAF looking for 150 J10 so i think paf has no interest in buying these jets even if they would i think they should see a more advance version to come up or may be the speculated Super 10 with twin engines but same design features of the current J10, this would be much better as both will feature same parts and easy maintenance.


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## shanixee

i have mentioned this earlier and again repeating it...my class fellow is now squadren leader in Paf....when i met him and discussing diffrent things he did mentioned that PAF will have something like su30 but after 2015....he mentioned in a very hidden way as if dont wanna share anything...i did not further asked him as he might not want to share it....but i got an idea that PAF is inerested in something similar to su30 which might be J11.....


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

shanixee said:


> i have mentioned this earlier and again repeating it...my class fellow is now squadren leader in Paf....when i met him and discussing diffrent things he did mentioned that PAF will have something like su30 but after 2015....he mentioned in a very hidden way as if dont wanna share anything...i did not further asked him as he might not want to share it....but i got an idea that PAF is inerested in something similar to su30 which might be J11.....



*Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that can only be J11*


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## Luftwaffe

and the price tag of J-11B after 2015 considering new technologies will be introduced to it new AESA radar and vice versa pretty well the price tag would go to $50M+


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## mjnaushad

why start digging a TWO year old thread.

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## Super Falcon

but paf neeed twin engine fighter jets rather than same single engine fighter jets


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## mughaljee

First we should strongly stand our feets , then i think we should try for twin engine freak.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

There is absolutely no hard in testing out 2 engine we should may be consider at least 1 squadron for 2 engine planes to learn to work with twin engines


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## SBD-3

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that can only be J11*



its a rumored J-10 J-11 Hybrid FYI


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## mivy

Considering the traditional Russia-India tie, the deal is impossible.As China still need to cooperate with Russians in Military sales, China still imports many engines for FC-1 & J-10. 

Besides, as a heavy aircraft, the J-11 is not suitable for PAF in terms of cost.


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## zulfiqar74

If PAF can get the j11 technology that would be awsome but if cannot get it then PAF could also look into reviving the Mirage 4000 program by join venture with dassualt. Mirage 4000 program was cancelled in the early 80is and was built for saudi airforce, it is designed to be both a long-range interceptor and a capable fighter-bomber. The US F15 took the bid from the french so the program was cancelled. The Dassault Rafale is influenced by mirage 4000. 

The french would love to open up this program again as most of the work is already done, it was already in test stages when it got cancelled. They need an invester. This would be economical, user friendly for the engineers and we also have a technology transfer due to join venture. I think with bit of changes in the design if possible, addition of latest hardware and softwares used in Rafale, Pakistan could be manufacturing its own delta wing twin engine 4,1/2, 5th generation fighter jets in next couple of years. plus i prefer EU product more then the chinese and russians.


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## shanixee

zulfiqar74 said:


> If PAF can get the j11 technology that would be awsome but if cannot get it then PAF could also look into reviving the Mirage 4000 program by join venture with dassualt. Mirage 4000 program was cancelled in the early 80is and was built for saudi airforce, it is designed to be both a long-range interceptor and a capable fighter-bomber. The US F15 took the bid from the french so the program was cancelled. The Dassault Rafale is influenced by mirage 4000.
> 
> The french would love to open up this program again as most of the work is already done, it was already in test stages when it got cancelled. They need an invester. This would be economical, user friendly for the engineers and we also have a technology transfer due to join venture. I think with bit of changes in the design if possible, addition of latest hardware and softwares used in Rafale, Pakistan could be manufacturing its own delta wing twin engine 4,1/2, 5th generation fighter jets in next couple of years. plus i prefer EU product more then the chinese and russians.



nice day dreaming


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The J11 would be a great addition , we would have one mighty airforce with combination of brute force J11 and finness J10B and our trusted F16 platforms with ample , support interceptors


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## TOPGUN

It is just a old rumor ... i wouldn't mind seeing the j-11 in our fleet but again its a dream and is not reailty PAF has its eyes and task on the thunders,f-16's and fc-20's who knows what the future holds.Hence, as we all can see even the 
fc-20 deal is still not in place so how can we even think about the j-11 .


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If there have been facilities in Pakistan where J11 would be assembled we can surely say that we are getting J11 ...


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## zagahaga

NOT GHETTING J-11 OR ANY TWIN ENGINE FIGHTER TILL 2019 AND ONWARDS!!!! ITS IN THE PAF DICTIURINE WAIT FOR J-10B .. IT LIKE A F-16 MIXED WITH A FLANKER


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## subanday

Sohanay khawab, dekhnay mein koi harj nahin.... a beautiful plane indeed.


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## Peregrine

Hi
All PAF future procurements are dependent upon Indian MMRCA, so lets see how thing shape up.


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## Super Falcon

welll i dont seee that paf will go for J 11 at any time


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## hillman32

So much time is passed and I have not seen these promised Chinese planes in the skies of Pak.


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## raveolution

hillman32 said:


> So much time is passed and I have not seen these promised Chinese planes in the skies of Pak.



Not gonna be happening for the next 10 years atleast. There will no twin engined plane until 2020 according to PAF's latest doctrine. And anyways the J-10b is supposed to be better than the J-11 according to posts in other threads, so why not just concentrate on that.


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## ao333

raveolution said:


> Not gonna be happening for the next 10 years atleast. There will no twin engined plane until 2020 according to PAF's latest doctrine. And anyways the J-10b is supposed to be better than the J-11 according to posts in other threads, so why not just concentrate on that.



You have it all wrong. Pakistan is not opting for twin-engined MRs mainly for the following reasons:

1) China lacks experience in heavy fighters. The J-11B will be China's first attempt at indigenizing dual-engine designs. The Chinese has yet to reveal its own heavy fighter. Thus, maintence, pilot training and logistics involving the J-11 will be compromised mainly due to the lack of Chinese expertise in the field.

2) The J-11 is not cost viable for Pakistan. The Flanker still has many non-Chinese parts. License fees demanded by the Russians upon initial purchase, and spare parts will make the purchase infeasible. 

3) Engine maintenance costs will be extremely high, especially when Russian/Chinese engines have shorter service life than most of their western counterparts in the same class.

4) Twin-engine MRs like the Eurofighter are designed for deep penetration and strategic strikes. Pakistan is not on the offensive, but the defensive. It does not need its interceptors to supercruise (one of the greatest advantages of dual-engines) into enemy territory. This is also the reason why France deemed the Raphale "unpractical" for Pakistan.

Note: J-10B is and will not be twin-engined. It will nonetheless, be China's most advanced indigenous MR in service for the next 7 years or so.

For reference:

FGFA vs J-12/13
F-16 IN vs J-10B
Su-30MKI vs J-11B
Tejas vs J-10

India: Logistics, superior aircraft, advanced anti-surface missiles, naval experience
vs
China: Indigenous&industrial production capacity, superiority in all other weaponry, economy, numbers

Unknown factors: crew potency, geological position: Indian Ocean (oil transport routes), though can be argumented by Burmese, Sri lankan and Pakistani naval/air bases, vs Tibet (natural elevated topographical defence), though can be argumented by Japanese and Vietnamese encirclement.

As you can see, the two countries are evenly matched. It all comes down to who the United States and/or Russia supports.


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## Luftwaffe

ao333..*China lacks experience in heavy fighters*

well you were sleeping all these years..
Q-5 is a heavy fighter
F-6 was a heavy fighter
SU-27 is a heavy fighter
China has been maintaining bombers..come out of hibernation chamber.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B 2014/2015 (36 planes)
J10B 100 + (2015-2017)

J14 Or J11 2018 36


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## All-Green

I do not think PAF has shunned twin engined aircraft, it is just that we have a lot of tasks lined up and may not be able to handle a new monster.
PAF is already introducing three new fighter jets in its inventory, F-16 Blk52, JF-17 and FC-20.
On top of this the AEW&C and Fuel tankers are also new aircraft in its inventory.

For PAF to introduce yet another entirely new aircraft in its inventory would be very difficult, i would say that such a task borders on the realm of impossible and will not be productive.

JF-17is the first induction in any air force, implying that we have no reference data available of past operations and are the pioneers in devising the military tactics for this plane.
F-16Blk52 is also a very advanced beast compared to current F-16s and will take time to fully integrate.
FC-20 will be around in 2015 and will require massive effort to integrate as well.

Now all these fighters will also have to be integrated to the early warning and command systems and be tested for air to air refueling.

One also has to understand that each fighter has to be thoroughly tested in various battlefield scenarios and tactics developed accordingly, this takes a lot of time and is not an overnight process.

The logistical support and maintenance requirements unique to each aircraft make it all a costly venture on top of the many man hours required for training and setup of the support staff and facilities respectively.

If we look at all the current plans, logic would dictate that PAF should look for another fighter acquisition after 2015 when FC-20 will be the only fighter new to PAF, right now it is a very busy time for PAF.

J-11 is very much a possibility and can add a lethal punch to PAF in strike roles over land and sea, however it will most likely be considered after 2015.
Maybe China has something better to offer by that time, one never knows.

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## ao333

luftwaffe said:


> ao333..*China lacks experience in heavy fighters*
> 
> well you were sleeping all these years..
> Q-5 is a heavy fighter
> F-6 was a heavy fighter
> SU-27 is a heavy fighter
> China has been maintaining bombers..come out of hibernation chamber.



Q-5 is not a fighter
J-6 is 2nd gen.
SU-27 is not Chinese.
Pakistan needs twin-engined bomber expertise...? I remember you need 4 for those.


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## Luftwaffe

ao333..all wrong answers..

Q-5/A-5 Fantan is a heavy fighter bomber used for ground attack roles..
F-6 as explained above.
whether su-27 is Chinese or not...PLAAF has been operating them from 90's till now and 7-9 years of su-30..Chinese aviation industry is 45 years+
again you need some research regarding Chinese aviation.


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## Mr. cool

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10B 2014/2015 (36 planes)
> J10B 100 + (2015-2017)
> 
> J14 Or J11 2018 36



Hello Gabbar Singh ji, how are you? (Just kidding, take it lightly)

I don't think that pakistan will buy any twine engine fighter or bomber before 2019...........

And ya Pakistan should not go with chines Su 27 because India is operation Su -30 More then 14 years and we have greater experience of this plane which is very important factor in WAR
Plus Pakistan air strategy is Defensive..............

so you generally don't required this kind of war birds. you should go with JF-17, F-16 and may be old Mirage-2000 in future. 

What do you say?


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## ao333

luftwaffe said:


> ao333..*China lacks experience in heavy fighters*
> 
> well you were sleeping all these years..
> Q-5 is a heavy fighter
> F-6 was a heavy fighter
> SU-27 is a heavy fighter
> China has been maintaining bombers..come out of hibernation chamber.





luftwaffe said:


> ao333..all wrong answers..
> 
> Q-5/A-5 Fantan is a heavy fighter bomber used for ground attack roles..
> F-6 as explained above.
> whether su-27 is Chinese or not...PLAAF has been operating them from 90's till now and 7-9 years of su-30..Chinese aviation industry is 45 years+
> again you need some research regarding Chinese aviation.



Look here,

Q-5 is not a fighter-bomber. It's a striker-bomber, with few variants equipped A2A.

J-6 is a second generation Russian copy.

Operating and manfracturing with indigenous kits are 2 different things. If pakistan were to buy flankers, it has to be made-in-china, something the J-11 is not...


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## raveolution

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10B 2014/2015 (36 planes)
> J10B 100 + (2015-2017)
> 
> J14 Or J11 2018 36



Why not make that J10B - 1000 by 2015 and J11D - 1000 by 2018. Yaar Azad bhai u really are too much... First let the J10b specs get finalised and all relevant engines/ radar/ avionics get operational / selected and then the PAF can decide its future. As of now only 36 planes have been ordered which will start coming in by 2014-2015 if the program is on schedule. Where on earth did u get 100+ J10b's from by 2015??


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## Azam Eagle

I will Prefer a mixture of J10's and J11's for the future PAF.
There should be no deals with US abiut F16.
We dont need F16 with so much sanctions.
US shuold keep her F16 with her.we dont need....
PAK-CINO friendship Zindabad


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## Sanchez

To clarify some of the confusing comments Chinese Su-27s/J-11s are named in the following ways:

Su-27SK/UBK 76 = Russian original
J-11A 105 = Assembled with/without Chinese parts
J-11B 70+ = Chinese indigenous variants
J-11BS (or J-11C) = Redesigned J-11B
J-15 5+ = Naval version 

Su-27s/J-11As/Su-30MKKs have all been shown inferior to J-10A in air combat excercises.

J-11B vs J-10A? Not yet tested.

The production of J-11B is already finished. PLAAF is ordering large numbers of J-11BS/J-11C, since it's a lot better than J-10B. By the end of the year there'll be only J-11BS and J-10B on the production lines. These fighters will likely be equipped with AESA radars, updated avionics and using new versions of PL-12G/PL-13 AA missiles. Their performances are expected to match up or exceed those of MKIs and Eurofighter Typhoons.


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## Luftwaffe

ao333...hatsoff to an idiot i'm not going to take this conversation to the next level mr. canadian.

>>read it and stop arguing..
*Fighter bomber is a military aircraft designed to operate in combined roles of attacking enemy aircraft and bombing targets. Usually faster and more maneuverable than a traditional bomber* Now F-16 and others have over taken the role of engaging enemy fighters but A-5 was good for its era.






bang your head dude try to understand..J-6/F-6 was a heavy twin engine fighter whether it is a 1st second 3rd gen it does not matter u raised the point that china has no or lacks experience with heavy fighters and i responded with the list..can't you get it in a simple way?! A-5/J-6 were not kits they were both indigenous F-7 is not kit but indigenous i can list airplanes Chinese manufactured upgraded and has operated and is operating..leave that su-27s kits, China has tendency they reveal things after they've operational j-11b has been in Chinese service for the last if not 5 years..for more information go back to 1950's Chinese aviation industry.


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## zulfiqar74

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> wel i guess
> Self Reliance is the first and the last key to success.
> If J11 comes with a technology transfer then its a good deal..
> guys i m an electronic engineer and i think that people here definately have the potential to devlop almost anything weather its the radar or any electronic equipement in a fighter plane.. they just need financial support. I personly know some people in Pakistan who can make even a space shuttle for you ... But you know This is Pakistan .We dont have any respect of talent ...



100% true, no respect for talent.
proper law order, no corruption, right people in the right position in the govt or civil job. pak can be beautiful resourceful have a very good revenue, financial stability, a new energing super power not just military wise as we the bomb but technology, finance, agriculture, IT. look at china indonesia singapore malaysia people are moving toward a better lifestyle, buses, trains roads moving forward an we are going backwards. unfortunately this will only be a dream as our country has been sold....


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## zulfiqar74

IceCold said:


> That is why like any other modern day navy, PN too should have a air arm of its own which will eliminate the need for the PAF to provide cover and also the race between the two sides shifting the blame on each other for not coordinating with each other the way it was suppose to be done.



very unprofessional attitude from both navy and airforce for blaming each other.the airforce are the guardian of the skies and it is the navy or coastguard duty to inform any or every movement in the skies. very  to hear this


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## zulfiqar74

Very interesting threads and topic discussions here. My idology is I think that, we should not say no to the US equipments and we should not even beg. 
we should just change our buying habit and techniques specially with the US. Play their game on them, make them beg us. If they are giving us free equipment let it come, if they offer us more F16 we bargain for better. We should look in to getting full Tot of any equipment that we get from them using our bargaining chip. If they offer us more F16 we ask for A10 fighters with tot or missile technology, or chinnock helicopters, equipments that does not need to much of their assistance or euipment with full tot or just a one off deal like night visions etc etc. Thats how we should be doing Defence deals with the US. 
pakistan should not go for any more F16 unless it is zero metre. paty pack. l would scan the plane to make sure that it will not stop on mid air with press of a button, dont think it will happen but who knows. 

We should look into the 2 new platforms we have JF17 as a light weight multi role fighter. J10B as medium weight multi role fighter. If we have no problems what so ever in inducting the aircraft by the russians 3rd would be the J11. We have three great platforms to work with here plus F16.

Airforce will get its share of JF17. Army should get 50. JF17 as ground support.

*What the Navy requires.*

1) Pakistan Navy Needs to stablish it own aviation wing. where the fighters, helicopters and plane of navy and coast guard can be operated efficiently and formally.

2) PN should induct J11 only for the southern command consisting of 6 squadron of 16fighters total of 96 planes upgraded to our requirement. PN should maintain only 6 squadron for their J11 inventory and increase the numbers only if it is really required. Main focus should be on the JF17 upgrading/ new technology etc and J10B platforms. 

3) four squadron should be placed under navy and dedicated to naval duties.

4) The naval wing of PN should be operated and administered by the airforce but should be working under the navy flag and reporting to naval command which is administered by both naval and airforce officers, so there is no complication, or mis communication between the two stablishments as read earlier on previous threads.

5) four squadron of mirages should be inducted until they are phased out by J11.


J11 will be a great learning curve for PN and PAF in every aspect and provide a much needed air superiority to PN in the arabian sea.


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## Paksindhi

vish said:


> You do realize that if the PRC sells the J-11 to Pakistan, it is going to face a lot of flak from Russia.
> 
> Plus, the first post is mere speculation and cannot be termed entirely credible.
> 
> I doubt PAF would get the J-11; it can procure the Sukhois directly from Russia though.



YOU WILL SOON SEE THEM OVER NEW-DEHLI, THAN U WILL BELIEVE THIS NEWS.

GREAT NEWS FOR PAKISTAN, F7PG, JF-17, F-16B52, J-10B'S AND J-11B's


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## farhan_9909

Is it true?

j-11B for pakistan..wll russia wil allow china to do this?

If its true then J-11B will boost PAF air superiority and fighter capable against Indian MKI..


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## Peregrine

Hi
I think future procurements of any jet by PAF will depend entirely on the Indian MRCA winner.


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## mhacsan

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> I think future procurements of any jet by PAF will depend entirely on the Indian MRCA winner.



Pakistan answer to Indian MRCA will be J-10B, thats why J-10B procurement is set to 2015. By that time China will have its own engine to power the bird, and the equipment to bring it to close to match any MRCA winner. 

Though how much China can improve on J-10B is yet to be seen, and there are few crashes around too. for me J-11 should go to PN.


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## farhan_9909

Personally i think j-10B and the next variant of jf-17 will be ery similar..

So then upgrade jf-17 with very high upgrades is better then to buy j-10B

Pak should go for j-11B.which can easily face all MMRCA fighter and MKI.
In Future we can equipt j-11B with AESA..


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## kashith

Paksindhi said:


> YOU WILL SOON SEE THEM OVER NEW-DEHLI, THAN U WILL BELIEVE THIS NEWS.
> 
> GREAT NEWS FOR PAKISTAN, F7PG, JF-17, F-16B52, J-10B'S AND J-11B's



could you please provide proof for your hyperbole???


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## Peregrine

farhan_9909 said:


> Personally i think j-10B and the next variant of jf-17 will be ery similar..
> 
> So then upgrade jf-17 with very high upgrades is better then to buy j-10B
> 
> Pak should go for j-11B.which can easily face all MMRCA fighter and MKI.
> In Future we can equipt j-11B with AESA..


Hi
Not exactly , J-10 happens to be better than JF-17 in every aspect payload, speed,ceiling etc etc . J-10 with western avionics will become more lethal than it already is same goes for j-11, Jf-17 is in no way on par with J-10 or j-11. I think J-10b with an aesa radar, TVC engine, and advanced avionics will become one hell of a jet.besides PAF has thing against twin engines so j-11 is out of question


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## Aamir Hussain

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> I think future procurements of any jet by PAF will depend entirely on the Indian MRCA winner.



I agree with you 100%! That is why the decision to go for the Chinese J-10 has been delayed.

Pakistan is wanting to keep its options open. Their gap filler is already being delivered in the shape of F-16's. The need for more high perfomance jets (quantity wise) will be fulfilled after the Indian award.

There will be a lot more understanding of Pakistani requirments by lets say, the French after they get rejected by the Indians!!!!


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## thunder rules

Peregrine said:


> Hi
> Not exactly , J-10 happens to be better than JF-17 in every aspect payload, speed,ceiling etc etc . J-10 with western avionics will become more lethal than it already is same goes for j-11, Jf-17 is in no way on par with J-10 or j-11. I think J-10b with an aesa radar, TVC engine, and advanced avionics will become one hell of a jet.besides PAF has thing against twin engines so j-11 is out of question



thunder cost is low as well.. this is where main difference lies.


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## zulfiqar74

JF17 with western equipment would be a lethal fighter and be able to match j10 not in every aspect but it would perform its required purpose gracefully, plus its a light weight multi role fighter an replacing all paf light weight fighters. j10 and j11 are medium and heavy fighters. different purpose an requirement altogether. 
j11 should only be aquired for the PN navy, if PN cant aquire them then they should go
for j10 for PN aviation role.


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## zulfiqar74

shanixee said:


> nice day dreaming



why would it be a day dream!!!! if pakistan can make its own fighter can get nuclear bombs soo it can also talk with the french as they are already getting agosta 90, marlins from them. anything is possible buddy if you want or can. in paf situation they can give it a shot.


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## maverick1977

This news came out two years ago and no confirmation on J11 purchase. based on the duration of this speculation, i will reach a conclusion that it was a false news and PAF will never for J11. Now, can we say the same thing for J10. i am not sure.


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## ChineseTiger1986

No matter how J-11 has been modified internally, it still looks like a Russian plane in its outer appearance. Thus, this would create a patent infringement issue with the Russian. 

The best advice for PAKAF is to save more money in the near future for the coming J-XX which is 100&#37; indigenous Chinese technology and won't have any problem with its copyright.

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## SBD-3

well keeping aside all the other things...we should keep in mind
Role of J-11
PAF requirements
Inventory Mix
J-10 is a multirole fighter, becoming more and more potent with every day (as we see J-10B and Twin engine J-10 nearing completion). PLAAF loves J-10 because it's versatility and potency. If J-10 gets a good engine lets say WS-10A (rumored with TVC) it can beat the hell out of any good fighter. J-11 as per my research, has not been up to the level of success that J-10 has been as evident from rising J-10 Numbers. Honestly thinking PLAAF will have little room for J-11Bs as JXX and J-10 II becomes reality.One capable for Strike and other multirole. I honestly think that PAF should stick to J-10 and not J-11 as PAF will be more ease at maintaining J-10, JF-17 and F-16 than another new platform. So what I think that PAF should stick to its task of developing the overall structure (refueling, AWACs, development of avionics and systems etc) and think about adding potency to current inventory rather than accepting more burden in the form of J-11


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## farhan_9909

j-10 twin engine?

is it true?


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## Frankenstein

^^nope its a single engine Fighter


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## MZUBAIR

J-10A/B is a single Engie fighter


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## farhan_9909

If j-10 was twin engine then it would be very good

PAF need a twin engine fighter to compete with indian MKI and MMRCA fighter


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## zavis2003

its fruitless to talk about j11
jis gali jana nahee os ka zikar kioun

v should assess whats in jxx

one thing keeps in mind that we should be less dependent on china


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## SBD-3

farhan_9909 said:


> j-10 twin engine?
> 
> is it true?


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## Ganga

I sincerely hope that Pakistan does not regret buying these planes if at all it buys them.I just read in an article that China tried to hide the crash of two J-10s.The same technique was followed by communist Russia earlier.


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## SBD-3

Ganga said:


> I sincerely hope that Pakistan does not regret buying these planes if at all it buys them.I just read in an article that China tried to hide the crash of two J-10s.The same technique was followed by communist Russia earlier.



what are you trying to suggest?.....of course PAF wont buy them blind....you should know....PAF is not "fresh"


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## Peregrine

hi 
i dont think PAF has ever shown interest in J-11's overtly


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## FlyingSpagetti

BEIJING (Kyodo) -- China's Air Force has refused to accept 16 J-11B fighters manufactured by a domestic aircraft maker due to technical problems, the Kanwa Defense Review magazine said in its June issue, quoting a Western intelligence source in Beijing.

China is believed to have developed the new fighter based on technology from the Russian fighter Sukhoi Su-27, sparking speculation that the maker, Shenyang Aircraft Corp., may have failed to employ Russian technology accurately.

Shenyang Aircraft, based in Liaoning Province, manufactured 16 J-11B fighters in 2009.

"When the Air Force was checking them up for delivery, J-11B had abnormal vibration after taking off," the magazine quoted the source as saying. "As a result, the Air Force refused to accept the aircraft."

A Chinese military source said the J-11B was not chosen for exhibition at the National Day military parade in October last year due to doubts over technical feature of the fighter, according to the magazine.

Chinese Military Won't Accept 'Made In China' Fighters


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## ChineseTiger1986

FlyingSpagetti said:


> BEIJING (Kyodo) -- China's Air Force has refused to accept 16 J-11B fighters manufactured by a domestic aircraft maker due to technical problems, the Kanwa Defense Review magazine said in its June issue, quoting a Western intelligence source in Beijing.
> 
> China is believed to have developed the new fighter based on technology from the Russian fighter Sukhoi Su-27, sparking speculation that the maker, Shenyang Aircraft Corp., may have failed to employ Russian technology accurately.
> 
> Shenyang Aircraft, based in Liaoning Province, manufactured 16 J-11B fighters in 2009.
> 
> "When the Air Force was checking them up for delivery, J-11B had abnormal vibration after taking off," the magazine quoted the source as saying. "As a result, the Air Force refused to accept the aircraft."
> 
> A Chinese military source said the J-11B was not chosen for exhibition at the National Day military parade in October last year due to doubts over technical feature of the fighter, according to the magazine.
> 
> Chinese Military Won't Accept 'Made In China' Fighters



This article has been *debunked*, please read this thread at the post #46. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...litary-wont-accept-made-china-fighters-4.html


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## Super Falcon

fake newsa pakistan only offered J 10 not J 11


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## araz

Ganga said:


> I sincerely hope that Pakistan does not regret buying these planes if at all it buys them.I just read in an article that China tried to hide the crash of two J-10s.The same technique was followed by communist Russia earlier.



Dont you worry your pretty little head with worries about J10. PAF knows its job well.You may have heard that we have delayed its induction inPAF. Wew dont induct anything prematurely and without research and testing.J10s will be a part of PAF and will come when they satisfy our requirements.
Araz


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## applesauce

Ganga said:


> I sincerely hope that Pakistan does not regret buying these planes if at all it buys them.I just read in an article that China tried to hide the crash of two J-10s.The same technique was followed by communist Russia earlier.



as with the article about plaaf not accepting the planes what u read has been proven to be indian news BS as well


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is nothing new when planes that are beign put through their paces crash---test pilots are killed---changes are made and life goes on.

Didn't we hear that a couple of F 22 had crashed over the years---even a B 2 bomber crashed somewhere in guam at take off---. Birds that fly do come down as well.

As for not disclosing the info about the crashes---that is how the chinese are---they are learning their limitations regarding their own engine.

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## vce

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> As for not disclosing the info about the crashes---that is how the chinese are---they are learning their limitations regarding their own engine.


so far all the operational J-10s are using russian engines.AL-31F(FN) is a mature turbofan engine, but not flawless.
eg:there occurred sevral engine failures on PLAAF Su-27s due to the poor quality of oil-centrifugal-breather,one of which caused the crash and killed the pilot.
fatal crash accident 
AL-31F centrifugal-breather

J-10 suffered several in-flight shutdowns due to engine lubrication system malfunction,since there's a design flaw with its oil unit. so it's been redesigned.


"As for not disclosing the info about the crashes"----plz keep in mind that English is not our native language.
people-daily reports on some accidents including a crash early this month:http://military.people.com.cn/GB/1076/52966/11646767.html

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## SBD-3

Stealth version of J-11 fighter


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## SBD-3

> Amazing attack power: F-14 will debut in China
> Lin Zuo-ming, general manager for the group, Geng Ruguang deputy general manager in July, twice in a flight SAC will be held in the spirit of the work site and left-Ming Lin, general manager of the development of a model plane made four-point demand, an aircraft flying swiftly Shen, Luo Yang General Manager signed the "Scientific Research on a type of aircraft to ensure that the task order"; Party jointly issued the "leading cadres in carrying out their work style, improve execution, to ensure that major tasks to complete throughout the year to discuss activities and satisfaction assessment notice" cadres and staff participation in research required to fully understand the significance of developing a type of aircraft, no matter how difficult, must be on quality, quantity, security progress to complete the task.
> 
> Recently, a flight SAC quickly go up in enthusiasm, the leadership of General Manager Yang Luo and others were led to the finished product contracted to coordinate the resolution of plant product supply; company set up a working group on site to coordinate the production line technique to solve quality problems; production department issued a rush plan; the research units participating each day 8 am to 8 pm, organization staff shift production.
> 
> In the August 5 meeting of cadres regular meeting, party secretary Yang Mrs Cheong has further requested the leading cadres should change their style, improve execution and enhance awareness of responsibility, the overall situation, do take the initiative as a positive work; all participating research units must conscientiously implement the Luo Yang, general manager of research and the implementation of the task orders require signed, according to military order signed with the various units of time and a clear task node, according to the company's rush to develop plans, carefully organize production, Xinghao tough fight to win.
> 
> This message is wondering the most is "a model" 3 words.
> 
> "A model" is what models do?
> 
> I think it is the rumor true long fourth-generation fighter in China, namely, J-14.
> 
> I agree with the following on the analysis of China's fourth-generation aircraft:
> 
> For years, many fans regard the FC-1 aircraft positioned on the level of underachievement that the country will not equipment, but only for export. Can now be produced for own country is out of 250! Special mention "FC-1 performance far exceeded expectations." The other news is not surprising that the actual production of J-10 issue, now the figure is more than 30 aircraft. This just proved everyone's speculation, single F-10 just over models, more powerful role yet to come. Contact the nearest J-14 Legend, and the looming twin Jian Shi's hazy ideas are truly a kind of beauty makes the approach of the blush of excitement? The two are linked together, there is a little idea, that is, the F-14, F-10 twin like the real version - the fourth-generation fighters will be available in advance, its progress beyond the decision of the people now imagine.
> 
> Prior to this development and future plans of American military advisers &#32599;&#20271;&#29305;&#31185;&#23572; Adrover said: China's Jian-10 a large number of equipment units, in accordance with the usual "equipment generation, development of generation, design generation" development principles, reason to believe that China has begun The development of next-generation fighter, according to the present situation, J-14 began in 2008 may test (or at least predicted the F-14 was introduced in).
> 
> He said: According to China's consistent sequence of models developed fighter mode, J-10 is the combined product of foreign technology, improved F-11 is the Su-27. The F-13 In the fifties and sixties of last century was called the "156 Project", J-14 is known as "East Wind 153" project. In 2002, China began to carry out F-13, F-14's development, but the military requirement must have the stealth fighter combat capability, and secondly to achieve sustained supersonic flight capabilities, but the Chinese fighter engine parts, has no progress.
> 
> Before contacting a number of stealth fighters on China's breakthrough feature of the development problem, and issued by the Shenyang Liming Air Group developed the Taihang, Kunlun, made two models of turbofan engine mature (2002 AVIC officially demonstrate to the outside, so far is 6 years in the past), the fourth-generation fighter technology in fact has basically break the bottleneck.
> 
> There is also a message from the users more interesting that the AVIC models in a few planes on the division of Dah Sing: research by the CAC J-10, XAC will be developed based on the J-10 J-13, while China's new commitment generation bomber (F-15 have said, I doubt this name) research and development, and have three generations of China's 12 major aircraft manufacturer Shenyang Aircraft F-14 is a major key.
> 
> Now, J-10 has become available, before, J-H-based Flying Leopard fighter flying from west to launch early, so he just flew in F-10 and Flying Leopard development of new generation bomber based on the news is certainly beautifully shy of (compared to fighter, bomber and updating of the Chinese seem more urgent), produced by the most technical fighter strength (Dawn Air Group and Shenyang Aircraft Research Institute issued the technical resources), the Shenyang J-14 main attack, of course, is the best choice.
> 
> It is also worth noting that AVIC I and China, two aircraft are in the pipeline capital assets (160 billion) merger of large restructuring, the new China Aviation Industry Group, will come out in 8,9 month, Air China, the veterans of a left-Ming Lin is preparations for the merger restructuring team leader (should be reorganized, chairman of the China Aviation Industry Group), which is China's aviation industry following the establishment of the China Commercial Aircraft Company (large civil aircraft production) followed by a huge movement, after the merger China Aviation Industry Group in the military aviation industry technology, production and R & D Zaishangtaijie. According to informed sources revealed that after the merger of CNAC affiliated companies, one of the most benefit will be the former little brother XAC group - so, take flight from the west and the new F-13 bombers of the R & D may also Kaopu .
> 
> SAC the most elite of the technology is now of course is that J-11 Su-27, F-14 technical and function to a certain extent also closer to the F-11 - heavy fighter.
> 
> Had heard, in fact, J-10, R & D primarily to the first generation of Chinese-made equipment, aircraft carriers, so this also explains why China should be separate from the SAC system, developing a small but excellent F-10 fighter technology, long ago, China has officially declared that 300,000 tons of production aircraft have all the core technology, or is this also true for the J-10 to find a strategic destination.
> 
> Germany's "Asian Aviation" article entitled, "off of the Chinese Air Force," the article said, China's re-launched in 1996 for the F-13, F-14 design. But then the outbreak of the Taiwan Strait crisis, the People's Liberation Army emergency purchase of Russian fighter second, caused J 13, J-14 project has been slow. The report quoted the United Kingdom, "Jane's Defense," said the SAC and CAC are being developed for the Chinese fourth generation fighter the Air Force, and is expected to serve in 2015, China's next generation stealth fighters will have excellent ability.
> 
> In summary, you can say for sure, China's fourth-generation fighter F-14's debut has entered the countdown stage.


......................


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## Luftwaffe

hasnain..that image is fanboy edited..aircraft sized shrinked while look at the tail bad design.


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## Paksindhi

In my lay man opinion, PAF dont need J-11B, for now coz of financial constraint's and maintanance headache's.

Our doctrine is defensive in nature, so we need light multirole planes like F-16's, J-10B's and JF-17 with strong radar and BVR missiles.

We must work hard on JF-17 improvment's and mean while get atleast 100 J-10B's from china to deter enemies.


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## SBD-3

One more thing J-10B, in the view of some chinese posters, a tailor made product for PAF. PLAAF is looking for a "heavy class" J-10....some articles also indicate that JXX will be a improved J-10 optimized for low observability, Super cruise and super maneuverability not built around the philosophy of Raptor of complete stealth. This is pretty interesting and seems realistic looking at PAK-FA development. So China will first mature and complete the J-10 program and then will come the any real fifth gen program.....if required. So for the time being FC-20 (J-10B) forever!


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## sergente rehan

Is it possible that PAF might reconsider the french Rafale option in the future? (obviously if enough funds are available to PAF).

I'm a big fan of Rafale!


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## Super Falcon

well wait for other 5 years to recover from this menas disaster we are short on money even before the disaster but now it is imposible to buy anything till next five years


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## Donatello

Super Falcon said:


> well wait for other 5 years to recover from this menas disaster we are short on money even before the disaster but now it is imposible to buy anything till next five years





Just the politics. We are not poor. The thugs who are in government, all of them, make us poor.

We saw the news which said Rs 500 billion corruption was found in the government in just one year.

That's what in USD? like 6 billion USD +?

More than enough to buy at least 3 squadrons of Rafale/Typhoon and support them.


Even if our economy grew at 20% per year, we still would be poor because of politicians.

I hope they all die sometime soon.

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## muse

> More than enough to buy at least 3 squadrons of Rafale/Typhoon and support them.




Why support the economies of our enemies?? France not our enemy, think again, the West in general is hostile and will become more so, till the US initiates an action which will pit them against Pakistan - What is this frenzy of buying? Have we turned into Arbis and Indians?

Lets support our own economy, building know how and capablity in Pakistan. This fixation with the Indian will prove costly, the real enemy is only to happy to see us expend our resources towards their econmies.

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## BlackenTheSky

I personally like this aircraft very mch and wish to see them with Pakistan.

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## SBD-3

J-11, well no to J-11B but what can i expect is that PAF could show interest in J-11BS (SU-30 MKK2 class) as it is more versatile. But not to take away for J-10B....it is turning out to be a real monster...even it was speculated that J-10A busted J-11B many times in mock combats.....and J-10B is a solid development over J-10A with A2A role strengthened manifold


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## mjnaushad

hasnain0099 said:


> Stealth version of J-11 fighter


Really stealth.....We'll never *see* this design flying.....

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## sergente rehan

muse said:


> Why support the economies of our enemies?? France not our enemy, think again, the West in general is hostile and will become more so, till the US initiates an action which will pit them against Pakistan - What is this frenzy of buying? Have we turned into Arbis and Indians?
> 
> Lets support our own economy, building know how and capablity in Pakistan. This fixation with the Indian will prove costly, the real enemy is only to happy to see us expend our resources towards their econmies.



You are right to be self-sufficient but to fill the gap we have to consider the other options available to us beside i don't think that France will sell us Rafale with the same conditions U.S give us F-16's.


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## HAIDER

Well, can't confirm this news, but in coming years J11 will be stationed in Balchistan. A base near Gawadar port.


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## Dazzler

China never offered us any J-11 variant to date and will not do so in coming years.


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## HAIDER

Pakistani pilots getting training on this plane for the last many years. And it has weight to stationed these plane near seaport. A strategic installation need a good cover. J11 will be the only long range navel craft China can provide or run the base under PLAAF.


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## Donatello

HAIDER said:


> Pakistani pilots getting training on this plane for the last many years. And it has weight to stationed these plane near seaport. A strategic installation need a good cover. J11 will be the only long range navel craft China can provide or run the base under PLAAF.



PAF pilots have flown more aircraft than you can think of.

They do this to get the experience on the adversary equipment.

They can feel how Su-30 would be as it is based on SU27.

With the JF-17 in Pakistani and it's allies' hands, India wouldn't know anything about it's capabilities.

On the other hand, PAF can test fly or know about the Typhoons from Saudi Arabia if India choses it.


Getting to know your enemy is one big thing that does matter in the complex air combat.


Lastly, about SU27, i don't see how it can offer more options other than J-10. I mean fine, it offer way more options in terms of range, armament hardpoints and radar compared to JF-17 but J-10 is already a big enough aircraft. Su27 with two engines would be too expensive to fly plus there is nothing out there which SU27 can carry and J-10 can't.

I think we should invest solely on JF-17 and J-10.

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## hataf

i read it some whare 

i don't whether it true or not . . . . . . only senior can verify

that a twin engine air craft can only make one sortie in 24 hours . . due to maintenance intensive
where as jf-17 can make 3 sorties in that amount of time . . . .


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## hataf

nabil_05 said:


> China never offered us any J-11 variant to date and will not do so in coming years.



nabil you r mostly correct ... i know that
but can u post some reasons


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## Super Falcon

what a stpid news we have not got yet J 10 first get 3rd generation jet JF 17 and J 10 we are stuggling to get them 4th generation is in our dreams


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## Moscow

This is the thread title without question mark so its not a question but a normal statement -*Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)*

1 ? then why isnt pakistan buying it ?
2. china can offer anything on sofat loan then whats the problem since members allover pak belive that china will hand them 5th gen planes and anything that they are making to pakistan 
3. money is not the problem , tech is not the problem necessity is there then why not pak buying it ?


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## TaimiKhan

Moscow said:


> This is the thread title without question mark so its not a question but a normal statement -*Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)*
> 
> 1 ? then why isnt pakistan buying it ?
> 2. china can offer anything on sofat loan then whats the problem since members allover pak belive that china will hand them 5th gen planes and anything that they are making to pakistan
> 3. money is not the problem , tech is not the problem necessity is there then why not pak buying it ?



Due to 2 reasons, firstly it has not been offered officially. 

2ndly, PAF is for now not looking into twin engine aircraft, may be in future it wishes to look for them. Its doctrine for near future is NO twin engine fighter. 

PAF is for now busy with JF-17s and modifying with Chinese help the FC-20s as per its own requirements to fully meet the Indian threat. 

And hopefully the next induction would be of some 5th gen possibly a Chinese version of a fighter rather then going for a J-11s. 

Induct JF-17s, FC-20s, F-16s and save money and later induct 5th Gen if it is available.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J11 talk is bit too soon after we have J10B 36 and about 80 F16 then we can probbly evaluate if we even have need for such plane


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## Moscow

TaimiKhan said:


> *Due to 2 reasons, firstly it has not been offered officially.
> *
> 2ndly, PAF is for now not looking into twin engine aircraft, may be in future it wishes to look for them. Its doctrine for near future is NO twin engine fighter.
> 
> PAF is for now busy with JF-17s and modifying with Chinese help the FC-20s as per its own requirements to fully meet the Indian threat.
> 
> And hopefully the next induction would be of some 5th gen possibly a Chinese version of a fighter rather then going for a J-11s.
> 
> Induct JF-17s, FC-20s, F-16s and save money and later induct 5th Gen if it is available.



the bold first line thanks for that now the point

1. should moderators not close such the threads which are 2 year old and has no basis for claims as you have said correctly it hasent been offered officially then why should a false piece of info be given out which has no basis.

the current j11 of chinese airforce is a licenced copy and not available for sale - its a fact

keeping such threads degrades the forum in my humble opinion as the moderator himself is aware of the uselessness of this thread


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## Dark Angel

*How can they sell it if they are license producing only*




> In 1995, China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, only 132 aircraft were built


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## fatman17

wow 386 posts on much ado abt nothing! the J-11 AFAIK has not been offered to the PAF, nor has the PAF shown any interest in this type - its the JFT, FC-20 and F-16s in our near and medium term future!!!

many interviews with the past and present ACMs have been posted and not one 'iota' of discussion on the the J-11 - that shd tell us something!


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## maverick1977

I cnat believe i have spent 1 hour going over this thread and at the end there is no concrete proof of J11 being offered to Pakistan. So many fanboys claiming that its been offered. terrible terrible thread and terrible comments...


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## SBD-3

here are a couple of news about it
Pakistan buys fewer F-16s? Indigenous Flanker from China! Rupee News
Beyond Pakistani made JF-17 Thunders & FC-20s: When will PAF acquire and manufacture the J-11s and J-14s? Rupee News
but yet these are only blog posts


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## Moscow

fatman17 said:


> wow 386 posts on much ado abt nothing! the J-11 AFAIK has not been offered to the PAF, nor has the PAF shown any interest in this type - its the JFT, FC-20 and F-16s in our near and medium term future!!!
> 
> many interviews with the past and present ACMs have been posted and not one 'iota' of discussion on the the J-11 - that shd tell us something!



sir yet the thread is still open that itself is not correct as i think


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## Quwa

China won't offer Pakistan the J-11B or J-15...not until the Russians are willing to license export rights to the Chinese manufacturers, and that might require Pakistan to give a fee to Russia should it buy J-11/15 from China. Such an arrangement won't be cheap, but at least there wouldn't be a problem with the manufacturing party (i.e. China).


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## eric_cartman

maverick1977 said:


> I cnat believe i have spent 1 hour going over this thread and at the end there is no concrete proof of J11 being offered to Pakistan. So many fanboys claiming that its been offered. terrible terrible thread and terrible comments...



I have learnt one thing after spending so many days here, start reading from the end, like 2-3 pages from the end then go to the front page if the end pages make any sense

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## HAIDER

Chinese biggest problem they are facing is the engine. Once they done with engine, it will be open market. Because airframe design etc etc are just logic less scenario. One and only problem is engine.


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> here are a couple of news about it
> Pakistan buys fewer F-16s? Indigenous Flanker from China! *Rupee News*
> Beyond Pakistani made JF-17 Thunders & FC-20s: When will PAF acquire and manufacture the J-11s and J-14s? *Rupee News*
> but yet these are only blog posts




rupee news


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## xukxuk

not possible 
russian will have a big concern about this deal
it's not worth for both china and pakistan
if pakistan want a twin engine fighter from china
i think it's more likely the next generation fighter

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## Secret Service

this aircraft still have few problems.....i dont know from where Pakistan can buy other than china...


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## Beast

secretservice said:


> this aircraft still have few problems.....i dont know from where Pakistan can buy other than china...



Lastest Info is J-11BS has just enter PLANAF service. From recent pictures of new J-11B and J-11BS enter service, all spotted with WS-10A engine.

It shall be believed J-11B is now 100% completely made in China.

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## Super Falcon

hope PAf goes for twin engine fighter jet along with J 10 tooo


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## Secret Service

Beast said:


> Lastest Info is J-11BS has just enter PLANAF service. From recent pictures of new J-11B and J-11BS enter service, all spotted with WS-10A engine.
> 
> It shall be believed J-11B is now 100% completely made in China.


 
finally Chinese made it....great..


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## Secret Service

Super Falcon said:


> hope PAf goes for twin engine fighter jet along with J 10 tooo


 
we need twin engine jet for both our air force and navy and no better choice than J11 but we have to wait few years....


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## Beast

secretservice said:


> we need twin engine jet for both our air force and navy and no better choice than J11 but we have to wait few years....


 
But I don't think J-11 of any version is allow to be export despite China bought the copy right and Twin engine aircraft is very high maintenance.

I think PAF if really interested, they shall go for JH-7A. This jet pack with so much range. PLAAF don't even bother to add a refueling pod for it. It is also much cheaper to procure. And it shall be escorted by new JF-17 with CFT and backed by aerial refueling..

Even J-11 loaded with full fuel and ordance can't do dog fight.. Still need to be escorted.


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## tanlixiang28776

Beast said:


> But I don't think J-11 of any version is allow to be export despite China bought the copy right and Twin engine aircraft is very high maintenance.
> 
> I think PAF if really interested, they shall go for JH-7A. This jet pack with so much range. PLAAF don't even bother to add a refueling pod for it. It is also much cheaper to procure. And it shall be escorted by new JF-17 with CFT and backed by aerial refueling..
> 
> Even J-11 loaded with full fuel and ordance can't do dog fight.. Still need to be escorted.


 
We should throw in a few YJ 12s as well.

400 KM at mach 2.5 plus.


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## S_O_C_O_M

^^ and j-20's


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## Beast

-double post-


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## tanlixiang28776

S_O_C_O_M said:


> ^^ and j-20's


 
Until China starts 6th gen aircraft it it unlikely.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Is this a rumor or realistic , we would be ok with J10B in 100 -200 numbers


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## Secret Service

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Is this a rumor or realistic , we would be ok with J10B in 100 -200 numbers


 
NO..Only 1 squander in 2014 ....


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## ChineseTiger1986

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Until China starts 6th gen aircraft it it unlikely.


 
China gonna start to work on 6th gen aircraft around 2020, it is the about the time to export it to Pakistan.


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## tanlixiang28776

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China gonna start to work on 6th gen aircraft around 2020, it is the about the time to export it to Pakistan.


 
Probably but until then J 20 stays in China.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Lol the russian also offered the su-27 in the late 90s.... n the americans offered f-18s... N we were going to buy 2 squadrons of rafael in mid 2000s.... We dont need it.

Who knows we might end up buying f-35 in a few years instead of JXX.


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## Skywalker

For heavens's sake folks, stop pretending to be so naive that whatever some blog suggest you believe that. How about if I tell you that with some reliable sources I have come to know that USAF have offered X 37B to us. Nobody is offering us their latest toys and unfortunately that includes China. Why do we wanna learn the hard way. My two pennies.

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## GodlessBastard

IAF knows the Flanker inside and out.

If PAF goes ahead and buys the J-11, it would be their stupidest acquisition ever. It's like India buying the F-16.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

There used to be a time when ppl used to add a reference link from a credible source - 

But J11 deal is difficult unless the engine is 100% chinese


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## Irfan Baloch

GodlessBastard said:


> IAF knows the Flanker inside and out.
> 
> If PAF goes ahead and buys the J-11, it would be their stupidest acquisition ever. It's like India buying the F-16.


 
I agree with what you are saying but
same goes for Mig 21 and mirages as well doesnt it? every nation customizes according to its needs which pretty much makes the platform differnt from others to some extent.


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## tanlixiang28776

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> There used to be a time when ppl used to add a reference link from a credible source -
> 
> But J11 deal is difficult unless the engine is 100% chinese


 
J11B uses WS 10A with 132 KN of thrust.


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## GodlessBastard

Irfan Baloch said:


> same goes for Mig 21 and mirages as well doesnt it?



Pakistan only got the F-7s because they had no other choice. 

But now, Pakistan has other choices besides the J-11. Namely, the J-10, which is probably the best fighter (excluding more blk52 F-16s) that Pakistan can easily acquire right now.


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## TOPGUN

So we are back to the fairy land dream again lolz for GOD sake close this silly and dumb thread PAF has its focus on the Vipers,Thunders & the Fc-20's simply .

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## Tajdar adil

Why PAF not going for this plan...
This is much better then F 16.We realy need this aircraft...


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## Secret Service

PAF should go for J 11bs ....


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## MZUBAIR

PAF cant get it ......Untill the Enjine is designed for J11


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## wakapdf

This is just a wet dream. This article was published in 2008 by moin ansari from rupeenews( i wonder wtf that is). We are not gonna go for twin engine aircraft. Not before 2020 anyhow.


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## Secret Service

wakapdf said:


> This is just a wet dream. This article was published in 2008 by moin ansari from rupeenews( i wonder wtf that is). We are not gonna go for twin engine aircraft. Not before 2020 anyhow.


 
you are in a wet dream ....

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## wakapdf

^^^^^i think i know who moin ansari is now and who wrote the article


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## RazorMC

Twin engine fighters are not part of PAF's strategy because of their higher procurement and maintainence cost combined with more fuel consumption.
I think that we ought to acquire F-16 technology through third-parties. The JF-17 and the J-10 are not suitable for defense against the Su-30MKIs and the soon to come T-50.


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## Secret Service

razormc said:


> Twin engine fighters are not part of PAF's strategy because of their higher procurement and maintainence cost combined with more fuel consumption.
> I think that we ought to acquire F-16 technology through third-parties. The JF-17 and the *J-10 are not suitable for defense* against the Su-30MKIs and the soon to come T-50.


 
J-10 version for Pakistan couple with newer f 16s are best counter for Su 30 ...and forget about t-50 it is years away....!


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## rcrmj

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF cant get it ......Untill the Enjine is designed for J11


 
J-11B is alreadt geared with WS-10 engine which is confirmed by CCTV. When CCTV says it then its very true all the speculations dont matter`


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think the real question is , do we really need J11 fighter 

The J10B is ample for our national defence needs specially with the advance variation of Air-Air Missiles on board its more then sufficient I just feel if we upgraded our 36 fighters to about 80 J10B 

Its more then enough to replace our all Mirage feet

The biggest problem we had in the past was the we did not had BVR missiles in our inventory which was a major disadvantage 

Now if we only upgrade to AESA radar on our fighters able to track 6 enemy fighters and engage them that should be top priority - AVIONICs and with Chinese cooperation we know we will get quality product 


a) High Altitude Missile defense shields
b) 80 J10B - 300 JF17 thunders is ample for our national defense

Which would help us retire the 150 Mirages in our inventory

1 engine or double engine does not matter - what matters is we get quality product


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## Secret Service

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think the real question is , do we really need J11 fighter
> 
> The J10B is ample for our national defence needs specially with the advance variation of Air-Air Missiles on board its more then sufficient I just feel if we upgraded our 36 fighters to about 80 J10B
> 
> Its more then enough to replace our all Mirage feet
> 
> The biggest problem we had in the past was the we did not had BVR missiles in our inventory which was a major disadvantage
> 
> Now if we only upgrade to AESA radar on our fighters able to track 6 enemy fighters and engage them that should be top priority - AVIONICs and with Chinese cooperation we know we will get quality product
> 
> 
> a) High Altitude Missile defense shields
> b) 80 J10B - 300 JF17 thunders is ample for our national defense
> 
> Which would help us retire the 150 Mirages in our inventory


 
Do j 10b is equipped with Chinese BVR ...???


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well the chinese missiles are good product - but we just need to move our Airforce from 1960's to 2011ish in next 4 years and the missiles we got from China are just what the doctor orders. 

We need to get started with Submarine, Frigate, air defence , and J10B purchases fast time is ticking

Becasue in bigger scheme of things , an out dated fighter plane is like that dot on video game , you click and destroy it in 2 minutes 

But in last 10 years we have been transformed rapidly during Musharif's time , I mean the best defence deals happened in that guy's time ( as much as I do not like the reason why he stayed in power for 10 years) 
but we got things done !!!

The J11 is a wonderful plane but , we just don't need it , for china it was a must becasue they plan to I think use it on the Aircraft carrier platform so you need the twin engines, other then that I do not find it as a absolute must 


What we do need is serial production of Ground to Air (High Altitude missiles) to shoot down drones and other enemy combat planes - which is needed , becasue , its hindering our national security

And just 100 -200 missiles is not enough we need serial production to cover all border regions of Pakistan (North , South , East , West ) in ample numbers 

J10B is pretty solid plane - loaded with latest 21st century weapons and avionics and to be honest I am kinda starting to like its unique plane shape


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## Beast

secretservice said:


> Do j 10b is equipped with Chinese BVR ...???


 
Hahaha... Is like asking is PRC armed with nuclear bomb? 

So what do you think?

Btw, I think J-11B is useful for PAF. It has such great range that it need not carry drop tank and has a great payload.It will able to strike deeper into India.

But I think China may have played the game too far if it export J-11B, the license to PRC covers only own production but not export. PRC still plays within the rules of producing for domestic use only. I hope they do not cross the line by exporting. 

Anyway, there is a major flaw of Su-27 if is configure to full load. It cannot perform decent dogfight with full fuel tank and massive payload. Even it dump its payload, it can't dump its internal fuel. 

The full potential of Su-27 dogfight can only be realised in cetain percentage of internal fuel. Which means Su-27 still need to be escort for long range bombing mission.


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## Joe Shearer

wakapdf said:


> This is just a wet dream. This article was published in 2008 by moin ansari from rupeenews( i wonder wtf that is). We are not gonna go for twin engine aircraft. Not before 2020 anyhow.


 
You don't know Moin Ansari and Rupee News? Zaid Hamid Lite.


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## tallboy123

Forget 4th generation j-11(su-27),u can get J-20...which has 2 engines..


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## Secret Service

Beast said:


> Hahaha... Is like asking is PRC armed with nuclear bomb?
> 
> So what do you think?
> 
> Btw, I think J-11B is useful for PAF. It has such great range that it need not carry drop tank and has a great payload.It will able to strike deeper into India.
> 
> But I think China may have played the game too far if it export J-11B, the license to PRC covers only own production but not export. PRC still plays within the rules of producing for domestic use only. I hope they do not cross the line by exporting.
> 
> Anyway, there is a major flaw of Su-27 if is configure to full load. It cannot perform decent dogfight with full fuel tank and massive payload. Even it dump its payload, it can't dump its internal fuel.
> 
> The full potential of Su-27 dogfight can only be realised in cetain percentage of internal fuel. Which means Su-27 still need to be escort for long range bombing mission.


 
i asked it in different perspective...Thanks for info ...


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## Silk

There is more chance we get J20 in small numbers in the far future then J11. Adding J11 means a lot of more problems in maintenance, training and total costs.With India getting into stealth the PAF will be forced to do the same.


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## Beast

Silk said:


> There is more chance we get J20 in small numbers in the far future then J11. Adding J11 means a lot of more problems in maintenance, training and total costs.With India getting into stealth the PAF will be forced to do the same.



Haha.. Are you joking? Get J20 then get J11??


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well the problem I find with J11 logic is that it will only enhance us strategically from very few aspects 

a) Ok it will carry 1-2 more missiles great 
b) Ok it can fly in just a bit more then other planes

But what else ? The marginal gains in battle field can be over come by superior Avionics on JF17 thunder and lets say J10B which will be enough for Pakistan Air-force.

What is important for us - as Pakistan is if we plan to purchase a aircraft carrier then yes by all means invest in a J11 platform as you need twin engines for safe take off and landing on Aircraft carriers ( of course makes it easier) 

But J10B is a perfect plant for Air Superiority for Pakistan's needs its perfect 

The only thing we are missing in our National Asset box is 

a) AESA radar , implementation ( of course are researching and developing with china) but its coming soon
b) High altitude defence

Our Air-Air Missiles that we have in our inventory have given us ability to stand toe to toe with best fighter planes in world specially the Chinese versions that allow us (classified distances and modifications) 

J11 is I think is great option to have but I think 


JF17 thunder 300 (AESA upgrades) + link up with Chinese AWACs
J10B 60 (AESA upgrades) + link up with Chinese AWACs
70 F16 C/D levels + plus Erie eye AWACs link up 

Sufficient for our Airforce 

* Just need to add S300 , like Chinese technology Ground to Air for city wide protection on borders etc 
Getting J11 would be repetition and waste of resources that can be spent to lets say *

Built 6 submarines or 10 frigates for Pakistan Navy 

or purchase of 10 batteries for air defence high altitude


Example: 

You have J11 flying with what *10-11 missiles 4 planes* - almost 44 missiles flying in attack

vs J10B flying with lets say *8 missiles 6 planes* - 48 missiles (if the J10B has better missiles it will still kill J11)

Becasue we are producing JF17 thunder serial production so we could just balance out things by just producing more JF17 thunders - we have 100% control over things


One area where we do lack is Navy frigates and Submarines
One area we do lack is High Altitude Air defence 
One area we do lack is helicopters 
One area we do lack is Transport class planes need 20-30 such planes

Airforce is doing just fine

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## RazorMC

secretservice said:


> J-10 version for Pakistan couple with newer f 16s are best counter for Su 30 ...and forget about t-50 it is years away....!


 
The J-10 is very good aircraft, but it doesn't level out with the Block 52 yet.
Once the Su-30 MKIs get the AESA radars they will be superior to the F-16 in many aspects except dogfighting.
It is an incorrect assumption that the J-10 and Vipers are better then the Sukhois.


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## RazorMC

Beast said:


> But I think China may have played the game too far if it export J-11B, the license to PRC covers only own production but not export. PRC still plays within the rules of producing for domestic use only. I hope they do not cross the line by exporting.



The Su-27SK was part of the license production deal, but the J-11 is a Chinese reverse-engineered variant of the Su-27SK. Russia is already furious and threatening legal action against J-11 production. It will never let the J-11 be exported.
Both China and Pakistan understand that.


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## Manticore

razormc said:


> The J-10 is very good aircraft, but it doesn't level out with the Block 52 yet.
> Once the Su-30 MKIs get the AESA radars they will be superior to the F-16 in many aspects except dogfighting.
> It is an incorrect assumption that the J-10 and Vipers are better then the Sukhois.


 
plz explain all 3 statements and the grounds on which you have come to these conclusions


----------



## BelligerentPacifist

razormc said:


> Twin engine fighters are not part of PAF's strategy because of their higher procurement and maintainence cost combined with more fuel consumption.
> I think that we ought to acquire F-16 technology through third-parties. The JF-17 and the J-10 are not suitable for defense against the Su-30MKIs and the soon to come T-50.


 
FACEPALM. FACEPALM. FACEPALM.


----------



## farhan_9909

i hope pakistan get only few squardens of the j-11B

this will give us edge over indian MKI and other MMRCA contenders

only few squarden will give us long range and a true air superiority fighter


----------



## Mech

farhan_9909 said:


> i hope pakistan get only few squardens of the j-11B
> 
> this will give us edge over indian MKI and other MMRCA contenders
> 
> only few squarden will give us long range and a true air superiority fighter


 
I do not think the J-11B is a proven fighter, but it would not be prudent to underestimate chinese ingenuity. I always thought the j-11B variant and MKI are on the same platform. I would appreciate if you can elaborate on the edge J-11B provides to the PAF. Also, isnt the J-11 a twin engine and therefore not consistent with the PAF doctrine of operating single engine crafts?


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## Secret Service

razormc said:


> The J-10 is very good aircraft, but it doesn't level out with the Block 52 yet.
> Once the Su-30 MKIs get the AESA radars they will be superior to the F-16 in many aspects except dogfighting.
> It is an incorrect assumption that the J-10 and Vipers are better then the Sukhois.


 
i totaly disagree...Su 30mki is over rated by india...it has all the qualities of 4.5 th G fighter but it is never used in a conflict or a dog fight...and it doesnt mean it cant be shot down...


----------



## Qasibr

In China's exercises the J-10 has been known to perform better than the J-11(modernised SU-30). The kill ratio was very skewed. Big aircraft with huge radar signatures do not have an edge over smaller and more nimble aircraft just because of more missiles. 

As avionics improve and alot more performance is deliverable in much smaller devices, modern avionics in smaller aircrafts seems to be the general trend in the aviation industry.

I don't know how people come to the conclusion that the SU-30 is better than the J-10. If you listen to the Indian hype they've got videos of the SU-30 copying the airshow demos they saw the F-22 doing and claiming that these aircraft are equal. Then in actual combat exercises in the US, they get beat up very very badly. They're good at illusions, that's bollywood. Little substance, much deception.


----------



## Beast

razormc said:


> The Su-27SK was part of the license production deal, but the J-11 is a Chinese reverse-engineered variant of the Su-27SK. Russia is already furious and threatening legal action against J-11 production. It will never let the J-11 be exported.
> Both China and Pakistan understand that.



Russia government never has problem with China J-11 production as China bought the right of Su-27. Sukhoi CEO statement is never equal to Putin statement. Russia manufacturer and Russia government are 2 different matters. I know Russia weapon producer are bitter over China side but as long as Russia government give instruction the Weapon producer need to obey.

Just like yr RD-93 case. MIG Bureau all the while bark about JF-17 sales going to hurt Mig-29. Few years ago they were even rumour Russia going to stop re export of RD-93. In the end what happen? Putin officially ink the deal of approving re export of RD-93 to PAF and shut up MIG.

I advise you refrain from reading mis info regarding China license production of Su-27. I have ink to official statement of Russia government official stating they have no problem with China regarding this issue. Even Rosoboronexport many time sprut rubbish which is not in line with Russia government statement.


----------



## Beast

razormc said:


> The J-10 is very good aircraft, but it doesn't level out with the Block 52 yet.
> Once the Su-30 MKIs get the AESA radars they will be superior to the F-16 in many aspects except dogfighting.
> It is an incorrect assumption that the J-10 and Vipers are better then the Sukhois.



J-10 is not inferior to blk52 in Air to Air superiority but inferior only in terms of Air to ground abilities. In terms of Air superiority, J-10 will eat Blk 52.

JF-17 already reaches 70-80 percent of Blk52. So what do you think of J-10? Btw, that statement is say by PAF chief. So you don't say I am BS,ok.

Latest J-10B will also get AESA. It air superiority will continue to dominate. Plus added with DSI, its radar signature will be even smaller. Making it further hard to detect on radar screen.


----------



## RazorMC

ANTIBODY said:


> plz explain all 3 statements and the grounds on which you have come to these conclusions



* J-10 B improves the aircraft's air-to-ground capabilities but still falls behind when it comes to armament variation and technologocal advantage that the F-16s offer.

* Without going into details, AESA is a better radar altogether and is difficult to jam because of its ability to work with varying frequencies. The US has already incorporated this tech into their 5th gen. fighters. It is also harder to detect. F-16 E/F have AESA and this, I believe, is what we need to get for our birds as well.

* Sukhois being better is merely my opinion since I favour air-superiority fighters like F-15, Su-35 and F-22. Long-range strategic air-superiority is a must for any air-force seeking to exert influence beyond their borders.

--------------------
EDIT: _J-10 and JF-17_ *not* J-10 and Vipers


----------



## RazorMC

secretservice said:


> i totaly disagree...Su 30mki is over rated by india...it has all the qualities of 4.5 th G fighter but it is never used in a conflict or a dog fight...and it doesnt mean it cant be shot down...


 
Yes definitely, dogfighting is F-16 territory even today.
But it is a different figther and PAF needs air-superiority fighters as well to pressurize India even further.


----------



## RazorMC

Beast said:


> J-10 is not inferior to blk52 in Air to Air superiority but inferior only in terms of Air to ground abilities. In terms of Air superiority, J-10 will eat Blk 52.
> 
> JF-17 already reaches 70-80 percent of Blk52. So what do you think of J-10? Btw, that statement is say by PAF chief. So you don't say I am BS,ok.
> 
> Latest J-10B will also get AESA. It air superiority will continue to dominate. Plus added with DSI, its radar signature will be even smaller. Making it further hard to detect on radar screen.


 
What do you exactly mean by "_JF-17 already reaches 70-80 percent of Blk52_" ?
What constitutes 70-80 percent ?
But J-10 *B* with its improvements is undoubtedly a better aircraft.


----------



## Manticore

razormc said:


> * J-10 B improves the aircraft's air-to-ground capabilities but still falls behind when it comes to armament variation and technologocal advantage that the F-16s offer.
> 
> * Without going into details, AESA is a better radar altogether and is difficult to jam because of its ability to work with varying frequencies. The US has already incorporated this tech into their 5th gen. fighters. It is also harder to detect. F-16 E/F have AESA and this, I believe, is what we need to get for our birds as well.
> 
> * Sukhois being better is merely my opinion since I favour air-superiority fighters like F-15, Su-35 and F-22. Long-range strategic air-superiority is a must for any air-force seeking to exert influence beyond their borders.


 
we dont need very long range fighters as our enemy is right next to us. moreover our air refuellers come in handy in these instances aswell as most fuel is burnt during takeoff 

huge fighters also have huge rcs, thus the enemy even with its light class fighters can spot the huge fighters earlier [even without awacs help]and fire the bvr earlier-- moreover chinese bvr ranges [and effective pk range aswell?] are higher 

regarding the radar capability i'm optimistic... firstly we've seen j10b with aesa modifications secondly the area to place the radar [dome size] of jf17 is greater than f16,m2k,rafael etc-- and is compareable to eurofighter , so placing a better radar in jf17 is no problem

dsi alone has decreased the frontal rcs of jft by 30% -- now both our fighters jft and j10b will be having reduced rcs-- im not even mentioning composites and ram coatings in these newer blocks

fighter designs are made due to an objective in mind and i'm sure the paf personnal present in the j10b projects know what is required by paf.. an easa fighter made for an airforce which is already familiar e blk52s... yet the fighter is half the price!

secondly chinese have come up with alternatives to almost all of the western weapons.. and paf might get to manufacture them e full tot

american technology doesnt come with tot or indeginous modifications options -- the blk60 r&d project was funded by uae and i dont think it ended up as cost-effective [just my 2 cents]

avionicswise, j11bs is better than the russian varients in the plaaf-- so it stands to reason that the new j10b wont be 'technologically' inferior to su27/30 either

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/72354-thrust-weight-ratios-all-fighter-planes.html


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## Beast

razormc said:


> What do you exactly mean by "_JF-17 already reaches 70-80 percent of Blk52_" ?
> What constitutes 70-80 percent ?
> But J-10 *B* with its improvements is undoubtedly a better aircraft.



Ask yr Air force chief. He is the one who says that.

Handling - JF-17 is better than F-16

Agility - Same as F-16

Avionics - I believe this is the area where it reaches 70-80 percent of Blk 52.

Remember, yr air force chief claim KJL-7 is as good as RC400 Thales radar. I believe in terms of air to air mode, it shall be almost same par as AP-68 radar, the weak part will be the air to ground mode. which may be only 50-60 of Blk 52.

Engine - Despite having a inferior engine than PWF-100, it manages to achieve an 1:1 ration thrust to weight ratio.
But the payload is inferior to F-16..

Overall, this is how 70-80 percent comparable to blk 52 comes about...


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## iioal malik

Beast said:


> Ask yr Air force chief. He is the one who says that.
> 
> Handling - JF-17 is better than F-16
> 
> Agility - Same as F-16
> 
> Avionics - I believe this is the area where it reaches 70-80 percent of Blk 52.
> 
> Remember, yr air force chief claim KJL-7 is as good as RC400 Thales radar. I believe in terms of air to air mode, it shall be almost same par as AP-68 radar, the weak part will be the air to ground mode. which may be only 50-60 of Blk 52.
> 
> Engine - Despite having a inferior engine than PWF-100, it manages to achieve an 1:1 ration thrust to weight ratio.
> But the payload is inferior to F-16..
> 
> Overall, this is how 70-80 percent comparable to blk 52 comes about...


 
Well said bro,i totally agree with you!!!i have been saying this from long time also 

We all know how smart our air force is in limited budget we get the best equipmentst ,thunder will be very close to Bik 50 in every area


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## holysinner

well brother i have my doubts now regarding jf 17. if it is that much compatible to f16 block 52 then y our airforce is eager to put there hands on as many f 16 as possible. v can surely save up the money and improve the newer batches of jf 17 to be 100% comparable to an F16 block 52/60. the latest news from the airforce saying there are looking for more f16 blk 52 and as many as they can get, puts a question mark on the reliability of JF17s.


----------



## Black Widow

ANTIBODY said:


> we dont need very long range fighters as our enemy is right next to us. moreover our air refuellers come in handy in these instances aswell as most fuel is burnt during takeoff
> 
> huge fighters also have huge rcs, thus the enemy even with its light class fighters can spot the huge fighters earlier [even without awacs help]and fire the bvr earlier-- moreover chinese bvr ranges [and effective pk range aswell?] are higher
> 
> Huge Fighters have Huge radars too.. It has more T/R module... It can detect the smaller plane(of same/inferior generation) much earlier than the counterpart... It has more payloads, range as well.. so your claim is null and void.
> 
> 
> regarding the radar capability i'm optimistic... firstly we've seen j10b with aesa modifications secondly the area to place the radar [dome size] of jf17 is greater than f16,m2k,rafael etc-- and is compareable to eurofighter , so placing a better radar in jf17 is no problem
> 
> dsi alone has decreased the frontal rcs of jft by 30% -- now both our fighters jft and j10b will be having reduced rcs-- im not even mentioning composites and ram coatings in these newer blocks
> 
> Read RCS as Frontal RCS in clean configuration... without any payload...
> 
> fighter designs are made due to an objective in mind and i'm sure the paf personnal present in the j10b projects know what is required by paf.. an easa fighter made for an airforce which is already familiar e blk52s... yet the fighter is half the price!
> 
> Totally Agree with you
> 
> secondly chinese have come up with alternatives to almost all of the western weapons.. and paf might get to manufacture them e full tot
> 
> Quality is still a concern (raised by non Chinese and non Pakistani media/expert).. You guys are ally , so china will definitely give you ToT ...
> 
> american technology doesnt come with tot or indeginous modifications options -- the blk60 r&d project was funded by uae and i dont think it ended up as cost-effective [just my 2 cents]
> 
> may be.. Americans keep the best for them and then sell the outdated technology ... never trust them...
> 
> j11bs is better than the russian varients in the plaaf-- so it stands to reason that the new j10b wont be 'technologically' inferior to su27/30 either


 
oops!!! this is fan-boy comment... J11 may be better than Su27 but I need proof if someone say its better than su30MKK (chinies su30)


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## Black Widow

holysinner said:


> well brother i have my doubts now regarding jf 17. if it is that much compatible to f16 block 52 then y our airforce is eager to put there hands on as many f 16 as possible. v can surely save up the money and improve the newer batches of jf 17 to be 100% comparable to an F16 block 52/60. the latest news from the airforce saying there are looking for more f16 blk 52 and as many as they can get, puts a question mark on the reliability of JF17s.


 
F16 is war proven machine... JF17 is claimed to be as good as F16B52, but it is not yet proved... JF17 is light category fighter plane in its evolution period, while F16 is near to Medium category fighter plane... No country will bet on something like Jf17 (which is not yet matured.).. PAF is doing right thing by blending Experience (F16) and innovation (JF17) in their fleet...

And please don't carry away with fan-boy comments that JF17 is better than F16..... Its still long way to go for JF!&


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## Manticore

[]


Black Widow said:


> oops!!! this is fan-boy comment... J11 may be better than Su27 but I need proof if someone say its better than su30MKK (chinies su30)


 
go through different chinese forums and see for yourself


> Su-27UBK, and -30 series of the late Soviet imports some body structure, combined with the latest Chinese-related technology will eventually develop into a new two-seater multi-purpose fighter-bombers heavy, which is J-11BS. The number in the "S" in the meaning is the two-seater. He appears, some users believe that the J-11BS is simple Su-27UBK the "unauthorized", is provided by the Russian technology, is simply copy the Russian goods. Strato believe that this is a very wrong view!
> 
> F-11BS and Su-27UBK there are still many differences in appearance, many significantly more than the Su-27UBK.J-11BS is the most typical heavy-duty multi-purpose fighter-bomber, similar to his performance, and use US-made F-15E "Strike Eagle" and the Russian-made Su-30MK2.
> J-11BS's apparent use of a large body of China's own development using the latest epoxy resin matrix composites and carbon fiber composite material. His predecessor, the F-11B has been that, while the J-11BS is more with Jay. Among them, two tall vertical tail, nearly four fifths of the volume used in composite materials, and all moving horizontal tail is all-composite. While still in the main wing, trim, and rear air intakes and the extensive use of leading edge mobile flap composite materials and non-conductive material. A fighter in the use of such a large proportion of composite materials, which made known the fighter is extremely rare. At the same time spraying a domestic new type of radar absorbing paint. Strato that the extensive use of composite materials, primarily for as much as possible to reduce body weight, improve agility and fuel load. But also improve the aircraft's radar stealth. Also prove that the Chinese use of composite materials in terms of large-scale fighter aircraft, has been a breakthrough, and this is a fourth generation fighter development in key technology! Therefore Strato that from the J-11BS body, we can Glimpse into China in some parts of four generations of technological advances machine!
> 
> In the future, J-11BS will gradually replace the Soviet -30 series,
> 
> First, the J-11BS born later than the Su-30MK2 years. And just in time for the rapid development of China's period of military aviation technology. So, he was able to use extensive use of new technology in China. Obtained from the current picture we can see the body on the J-11BS substantial use of composite materials. The advantage of this is to significantly reduce body weight, increased fuel capacity and payload increased combat radius. The Su-30MK2 use of composite materials is very limited. Su-30MK2 design mission is to focus on land / sea-based air combat secondary attack. Seek large range of high payload. Size and weight significantly more than the J-11BS.
> 
> J-11BS significantly smaller than the size and weight of the Su-30MK2, aerodynamic body structure and was inherited from the Soviet-27UBK and J-11B. Both of which have always been a strong air combat capability, particularly in high-mobility fighting powerful close-known, while the F-11BS obviously inherited these qualities. Coupled with China's new generation air - air missiles and high performance of avionics system. Therefore Strato that J-11BS in air combat capability, especially in close combat on the high mobility to be significantly stronger than the Su-30MK2!
> 
> So Strato that J-11BS in ground / sea precision strike capability will certainly be more than Su-30MK2. In addition, due to extensive use of composite materials and optimize the body structure, and spray a new type of radar absorbing paint. Therefore, the stealthy F-11BS better than Su-30MK2.
> 
> J-11BS in the range, combat radius is not as good as Su-30MK2's.


----------



## Manticore

Black Widow said:


> And please don't carry away with fan-boy comments that JF17 is better than F16..... Its still long way to go for JF!&



who says jf17 blk1 is equal to f16 blk52+ ? however f16 blk 30/40 , yes


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## RazorMC

ANTIBODY said:


> who says jf17 blk1 is equal to f16 blk52+ ? however f16 blk 30/40 , yes


 
This is what I've been saying: JF-17 is more than a match for earlier F-16s, but not the latest ones.
The Thunder's design is similar to the F-5/F-20 and seems to me that the roles are similar too. They complement the Vipers perfectly, but when it comes to air-air and air-ground edge, it is the F-16 who has it currently.

However the Thunder has been given a lot of room to upgrade and we will see better versions over time.


----------



## RazorMC

ANTIBODY said:


> we dont need very long range fighters as our enemy is right next to us. moreover our air refuellers come in handy in these instances aswell as most fuel is burnt during takeoff



We need to develop our airforce beyond an Indian threat



ANTIBODY said:


> huge fighters also have huge rcs, thus the enemy even with its light class fighters can spot the huge fighters earlier [even without awacs help]and fire the bvr earlier-- moreover chinese bvr ranges [and effective pk range aswell?] are higher



Not necessarily. The Vulcan frequently disappeared from enemy radar despite its size. An aircraft's design and material play an important role.
The Vulcan's shape had few sharp edges and protrusions and gave the aircraft a smoother, fluid shape which is a bit harder to detect on radars.

The Mirage 2000's delta wing and intakes gives it a slightly lower RCS than the F-16 with its gaping mouth (both without weapons)
I'm glad the J-10 addresses this issue.



ANTIBODY said:


> regarding the radar capability i'm optimistic... firstly we've seen j10b with aesa modifications secondly the area to place the radar [dome size] of jf17 is greater than f16,m2k,rafael etc-- and is compareable to eurofighter , so placing a better radar in jf17 is no problem



I don't know about this though, aren't the EF and Rafale larger aircraft?



ANTIBODY said:


> fighter designs are made due to an objective in mind and i'm sure the paf personnal present in the j10b projects know what is required by paf.. an easa fighter made for an airforce which is already familiar e blk52s... yet the fighter is half the price!



A modified J-10 B would be exactly what we need. The Thunder has ability to integrate Western tech so a similar ability in J-10B is much appreciated.



ANTIBODY said:


> i dont think it ended up as cost-effective [just my 2 cents]



They have too much money... They don't need cost-effective fighters. Wish we had the same kind of money




ANTIBODY said:


> avionicswise, j11bs is better than the russian varients in the plaaf-- so it stands to reason that the new j10b wont be 'technologically' inferior to su27/30 either



It would be unwise to underestimate Russian radar tech. Even their archer millsiles are harder to deflect than the sidewinders.


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## Manticore

razormc said:


> The Thunder's design is similar to the F-5/F-20 .



do you really have any idea what youve just said or are blindly posting indian biased comments?

you can post or views in the fighter aircraft designs thread-- after going through it first
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/75408-combat-aircraft-designs-28.html



> The Mirage 2000's delta wing and intakes gives it a slightly lower RCS than the F-16 with its gaping mouth (both without weapons)
> I'm glad the J-10 addresses this issue.


??


----------



## Manticore

razormc said:


> We need to develop our airforce beyond an Indian threat



for what?




> The Mirage 2000's delta wing and intakes gives it a slightly lower RCS than the F-16 with its gaping mouth (both without weapons)
> I'm glad the J-10 addresses this issue.[/SIZE]


i dont understand what ''synonyms'' you are using here



> I don't know about this though, aren't the EF and Rafale larger aircraft?






diameter of the radar dome -rough estimate

F-20/T-50 => ~500mm (APG-67 family)
Gripen => ~500mm (PS/05 family)
M2000 => ~500mm (RDM, RDI, RDY families)
Rafale => ~600mm(RBE family)
MIG-29 => ~624 mm (N019, N010 families)
F-16 => ~660mm (APG-66, APG-68, APG-80 families)

JFT =>~ 670-740 mm

Typhoon => ~700mm (ECR-90/CAPTOR family)
F-18 => ~700mm (APG-65, APG-73, APG-79 families)
F-35 => ~700mm (APG-81)
F-22 => ~900mm (APG-77)
F-15 => ~950mm (APG-63, APG-70 families)
SU-27/30 => ~1000 mm (N001, N010 [924mm antenna ver], N011 faimilies)
MIG-31 => ~1400mm (N007 family)


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## satishkumarcsc

ANTIBODY said:


> we dont need very long range fighters as our enemy is right next to us. moreover our air refuellers come in handy in these instances aswell as most fuel is burnt during takeoff
> 
> huge fighters also have huge rcs, thus the enemy even with its light class fighters can spot the huge fighters earlier [even without awacs help]and fire the bvr earlier-- moreover chinese bvr ranges [and effective pk range aswell?] are higher
> 
> regarding the radar capability i'm optimistic... firstly we've seen j10b with aesa modifications secondly the area to place* the radar [dome size] of jf17 is greater than f16,m2k,rafael etc-- and is compareable to eurofighter , so placing a better radar in jf17 is no problem*
> 
> dsi alone has decreased the frontal rcs of jft by 30% -- now both our fighters jft and j10b will be having reduced rcs-- im not even mentioning composites and ram coatings in these newer blocks
> 
> fighter designs are made due to an objective in mind and i'm sure the paf personnal present in the j10b projects know what is required by paf.. an easa fighter made for an airforce which is already familiar e blk52s... yet the fighter is half the price!
> 
> secondly chinese have come up with alternatives to almost all of the western weapons.. and paf might get to manufacture them e full tot
> 
> american technology doesnt come with tot or indeginous modifications options -- the blk60 r&d project was funded by uae and i dont think it ended up as cost-effective [just my 2 cents]
> 
> avionicswise, j11bs is better than the russian varients in the plaaf-- so it stands to reason that the new j10b wont be 'technologically' inferior to su27/30 either
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters.html
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/72354-thrust-weight-ratios-all-fighter-planes.html


 
Well I have a small doubt about this one. 

Can the single RD 93 or the WS 13 generate enough electrical power to fit a larger radar inside the cone?


----------



## Tajdar adil

razormc said:


> Twin engine fighters are not part of PAF's strategy because of their higher procurement and maintainence cost combined with more fuel consumption.
> I think that we ought to acquire F-16 technology through third-parties. The JF-17 and the J-10 are not suitable for defense against the Su-30MKIs and the soon to come T-50.


 
No i dont thing so... Because A 5 and F 6 is also twin enjine.....


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## Beast

holysinner said:


> well brother i have my doubts now regarding jf 17. if it is that much compatible to f16 block 52 then y our airforce is eager to put there hands on as many f 16 as possible. v can surely save up the money and improve the newer batches of jf 17 to be 100% comparable to an F16 block 52/60. the latest news from the airforce saying there are looking for more f16 blk 52 and as many as they can get, puts a question mark on the reliability of JF17s.


 F-16 Blk 52 with CFT will form the backbone of PAF deep strike role. Jf-17 will take over the escort role,air defense and near territory strike role. It is understandable PAF will look for more F-16 blk52 to fill up their strike role.


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## monitor

*What gone in gone now paf focus should be for j-20/ any Chinese single engine fifth generation fighter to be build under license in pakistan in addition to fc-20 and jf-17 block II . the future is in fifth generation and thats should be the long term goal of paf . for next 15 years i think f-16 and fc-20 jf-17 is enough .*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Beast

Seriously speaking, PAF shall not worry abt too much of 5th gen fighter in the next 20 years. I don't think even after 15 years IAF is able to field a 5th gen fighter. PAF-KA is a pathetic lousy fake stealth which fits under 4.5th with it's horrible shape. F-35 project budget over balloon and they may end up another 10yrs delay or field an inferior version. The focus shall be 4.5th gen fighter which is affordable while still pack a punch with constant upgrade.


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## F86 Saber

Beast said:


> Seriously speaking, PAF shall not worry abt too much of 5th gen fighter in the next 20 years. I don't think even after 15 years IAF is able to field a 5th gen fighter. PAF-KA is a pathetic lousy fake stealth which fits under 4.5th with it's horrible shape. F-35 project budget over balloon and they may end up another 10yrs delay or field an inferior version. The focus shall be 4.5th gen fighter which is affordable while still pack a punch with constant upgrade.


 
Brother you just opened a can of worms with the PAK-FA comments............ Expect some very heavy Indian troll traffic within the next 5 minutes.....


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## Pioneerfirst

All depends on Pakistan's economic situation.Pakistan needs a double engine fighter in its fleet.Eurofighter is best in this role but its very expensive so J-11 with some western avionics will be a great option.


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## monitor

Beast said:


> Seriously speaking, PAF shall not worry abt too much of 5th gen fighter in the next 20 years. I don't think even after 15 years IAF is able to field a 5th gen fighter. PAF-KA is a pathetic lousy fake stealth which fits under 4.5th with it's horrible shape. F-35 project budget over balloon and they may end up another 10yrs delay or field an inferior version. The focus shall be 4.5th gen fighter which is affordable while still pack a punch with constant upgrade.


 
Even that prediction comes true why not to build pakistan airforce more powerful then its main adversary ?


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## Beast

monitor said:


> Even that prediction comes true why not to build pakistan airforce more powerful then its main adversary ?



But the problem is, it will not easier to obtain that 5th gen fighter(technology and financially).. Even Japan just start from scratch. They will claim to have a demonstrator ready by 2014 then they will decide whether it will go into prototype. You can imagine the long road to a operational 5th gen fighter...


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## Beast

F86 Saber said:


> Brother you just opened a can of worms with the PAK-FA comments............ Expect some very heavy Indian troll traffic within the next 5 minutes.....



You already mention troll. So what is there to be afraid of? 

PAF-KA- No S-duct, No Engine inlet blade blocker, the whole plane full of round protruding parts, Protruding IRST, Metal and non-one piece canopy and lack of enough composite.. A true 4.5th gen fighter... If India is really betting this as their 5th gen fighter. Then they will be very disappointed. Russian now is so far behind that it cannot even match China in aircraft design. Haha.


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## RazorMC

Tajdar adil said:


> No i dont thing so... Because A 5 and F 6 is also twin enjine.....


 
A single engine in the F-16 (either GE or PW) produces more thrust and consumes more fuel than two engines in the older A-5 and F-6.
Maybe that's one reason or I maybe wrong.


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## SBD-3

Beast said:


> F-16 Blk 52 with CFT will form the backbone of PAF deep strike role. Jf-17 will take over the escort role,air defense and near territory strike role. It is understandable PAF will look for more F-16 blk52 to fill up their strike role.


Correction
F-16 Strikers/CAS
FC-20 Airsuperiority/Mutirole/Interception
JFT CAP/CAS/Interception

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## RazorMC

ANTIBODY said:


> i dont understand what ''synonyms'' you are using here



I was referring to the fact that a tail-less delta-wing design of the Mirage-2000 offers a lower RCS than a conventional one and a slightly higher altitude ceiling (I know you don't like the design ) But it causes some problems in low altitude flights.
The F-16's intake is a large, curved surface which makes it easier to detect.


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## Manticore

yes i dont like tailess deltas like m2k/lca as they are 50s design.. i know they have certain plus points which ive no plan to get into in yet another thread.



razormc said:


> The Thunder's design is similar to the F-5/F-20 and seems to me that the roles are similar too.


plz discuss this point if you really believe in your statement.. who knows i might get some info in the process!

http://dc306.*******.com/img/s8-jwhsT/gra6.PNGhttp://dc206.*******.com/img/6Dd2HoEG/grande4.pnghttp://dc317.*******.com/img/gyg_jEpA/wing_configurations.PNG


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## TOPGUN

So ic we are still on this silly topic of a wet dream oh lord..... kids


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## RazorMC

ANTIBODY said:


> plz discuss this point if you really believe in your statement.. who knows i might get some info in the process!


 




These are from Grumman, who were also working with the Chinese for their project to upgrade/develop the F-7.
The F-5/F-20 came later and the design is different so it can't be them. But what do you think of this picture?

It is the F-11 btw.


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## Manticore

this is a ground attack fighters compliation i made of that era
http://dc311.*******.com/img/vYYfFdMW/attack.JPG
some resemblances , but nothing to do e jf17!http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...08-combat-aircraft-designs-6.html#post1455759


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## BelligerentPacifist

razormc said:


> A single engine in the F-16 (either GE or PW) produces more thrust and consumes more fuel than two engines in the older A-5 and F-6.
> Maybe that's one reason or I maybe wrong.



The single engine in the JFT produces probably more thrust than the two engines combined of FCK-1. So what's your point?

Sonny single engine jets risk falling out of the sky because their one and only engine failed and they can't run long duration strike sorties either.

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## khanz

Mahdi said:


> it can be used against baluchis, pushtoons or In khi.
> you guys should stop this deal otherwise your defence strategist will make you cry.


 
u don't need to worry about them only one it'll be used against is indians if u try anything funny.


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## Secret Service

Mahdi said:


> it can be used against baluchis, pushtoons or In khi.
> you guys should stop this deal otherwise your defence strategist will make you cry.


 
hahaha...first take care of your Naxalites ,Tamils and Maoists ..


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## satishkumarcsc

secretservice said:


> hahaha...first take care of your Naxalites ,*Tamils* and Maoists ..



Whats wrong with Tamils?


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## james1122

A feather in a cap for PAF


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## RazorMC

BelligerentPacifist said:


> The single engine in the JFT produces probably more thrust than the two engines combined of FCK-1. So what's your point?
> 
> Sonny single engine jets risk falling out of the sky because their one and only engine failed and they can't run long duration strike sorties either.


 
I don't understand _your_ point?
I was answering another post. As for twin-engines, I've always preferred them over single. Just like I prefer air-superiority over multi-role fighters for air-air combat roles (unless dogfighting).


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## Tajdar adil

If PAF get 100 of J11b then we dont need F16 F15 eurofighter and rafale....
This plane is very good option for PAF.But my question that why PAF PAF dont have heavy bomber and twin engine Fighter.
Can any one tell me the real resone...

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## SR 71 Blackbird

Tajdar adil said:


> If PAF get 100 of J11b then we dont need F16 F15 eurofighter and rafale....
> This plane is very good option for PAF.But my question that why PAF PAF dont have heavy bomber and twin engine Fighter.
> Can any one tell me the real resone...


 
PAF possessing heavy bomber!
Even China ha just medium bombers based on old Tu-16. 
engined 
The reason PAF doesn't want twin engined fighters is that they except the Mig-29 & Su-27 are very costly to operate.


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## SBD-3

Tajdar adil said:


> If PAF get 100 of J11b then we dont need F16 F15 eurofighter and rafale....


When it is satisfied with a single engine fighter, why does PAF need to go for a twin engine. I dont understand the logic behind this argument. F-16 is a decent bomb truck, JFT will make up for its munition load by using multi launch racks. Why do we need a fuel and maintainence thirsty monster when we can have a single engine aircraft doing a similar role. Twin engines are used to balance the TWR of heavy fighters, but ease of maintainence means that a single engine fighter will be able to make more stories when required and thus will be more efficient than a twin engine fighter in general


> This plane is very good option for PAF.But my question that why PAF PAF dont have heavy bomber and twin engine Fighter.
> Can any one tell me the real resone...


because PAF is not USAF, USAF does not pit its heavy bombers in active theater, they firstly wipe out all the potential threats in the area to give a clean go for their heavy bombers. PAF cant do this, thats why we dont need these lame elephants

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## Tajdar adil

hasnain0099 said:


> When it is satisfied with a single engine fighter, why does PAF need to go for a twin engine. I dont understand the logic behind this argument. F-16 is a decent bomb truck, JFT will make up for its munition load by using multi launch racks. Why do we need a fuel and maintainence thirsty monster when we can have a single engine aircraft doing a similar role. Twin engines are used to balance the TWR of heavy fighters, but ease of maintainence means that a single engine fighter will be able to make more stories when required and thus will be more efficient than a twin engine fighter in general
> 
> because PAF is not USAF, USAF does not pit its heavy bombers in active theater, they firstly wipe out all the potential threats in the area to give a clean go for their heavy bombers. PAF cant do this, thats why we dont need these lame elephants


 
Then we need to go for joint production of J 10 because it is also very good fighter aircraft.


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## SBD-3

Tajdar adil said:


> Then we need to go for joint production of J 10 because it is also very good fighter aircraft.


 
Probably yes, however, till something concrete comes out on the issue, its better to wait and watch


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## yousaf goebbels

my two pence would be that Pakistan should invest in ICBM's...they are the great equalizer and will ensure and safeguard Pakistan's sovereignity against the rest of the world in the age to come


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## SBD-3

yousaf goebbels said:


> my two pence would be that Pakistan should invest in ICBM's...they are the great equalizer and will ensure and safeguard Pakistan's sovereignity against the rest of the world in the age to come


Why would we be needing ICBM???? we dont have our history with US or USSR


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## T-Rex

hasnain0099 said:


> Why would we be needing ICBM???? we dont have our history with US or USSR


 
If you have ICBMs you don't need long range heavy bombers. It has nothing to do with the history of USSR or the US. Besides, the ICBMs are much less vulnerable to counter-measures.


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## TOPGUN

I just don't seem to understand is why most of you always go off topic look at what the damn titile of the thread is and now we here talking about other stuff waste of thread space never the less a useless thread which will never happen.

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## SBD-3

T-Rex said:


> If you have ICBMs you don't need long range heavy bombers. It has nothing to do with the history of USSR or the US. Besides, the ICBMs are much less vulnerable to counter-measures.


 
But when you have ur adversary covered with conventional BMs, then why to go for ICBM....


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## Tajdar adil

Hope we will get this.............


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## SBD-3

Tajdar adil said:


> Hope we will get this.............


Why are you resurrcuting dead threads????


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## T-Rex

hasnain0099 said:


> But when you have ur adversary covered with conventional BMs, then why to go for ICBM....


*
After the Abottabad assault it doesn't look like that india is Pakistan's only adversary. You may shout all day but that's not going to change the fact that the american friends of Pakistan don't give a hoot about Pakistan's sovereignty or strategic interests. While some try to say that israel has absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan but the military co-operation between india and israel tells a different story. *

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## klimove

I wana know the base of this rumour, paf dont want twin engine aircraft, while we used f6 which had two engines


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## Manticore

till 2019 we cannot have a new double engined fighter- courtesy of the cabinet legislation


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## Xracer

Bro j6 is a single engine Fighter aircraft and i dont think paf to adopt twin engine Fighter and thats tha truth but who Knows i also want Paf to adopt Twin engine Fighter.


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## Xracer

What is courtesy of the cabinet legislation


ANTIBODY said:


> till 2019 we cannot have a new double engined fighter- courtesy of the cabinet legislation


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